The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

EDINBURGH PETITION.

The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from
the inhabitants of Edinburgh, signed by 36,150 persons.
In doing so the Noble Lord observed that, according to the
rules of calculation adopted by political and statistical
writers, the whole male adult populatio❑ of the city of
Edinburgh, with but few exceptions, hid signed this
petition.—(Hear, hear.) This, the Noble Lord looked
upon as a most remarkable fact in favour of
the great question of Parliamentary Reform.—( Hear.)
Twenty or five and twenty years ago it would have
been considered madness to call on the people of the city
of Edinburgh to sign such a petition, but to him it was
matter of no wonderment at all, that after a lapse of 25
years, and the exercise of deep reflection, by a very think-
ing, solid, and considerate people as the Scotch were,
a people little liable to be carried away by sudden im-
pulse to lend themselves as tools to party—should have
conic to the resolution, one and all, of supporting the
measures of his Majesty's Government to redress their
grievances. It was true that this great city, containing
one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty thousand
rersons had their representatives in Parliament, but it was
equally true that they had not the privilege of electing them.
They were their representatives, because they represented
them not—they'were their Members, because they did not
choose them—they ,were the Members for the burgesses
of Edinburgh, because the burgesses of Edinburgh
no more chose them than did Constantinople—
they were chosen by perhaps the only persons in the
whole city who had not signed the present petition.
By how many persons did their Lordships suppose
they were chosen? Peradventure a thousand—no—not
b 0 much !—by a hundred? Not so much ! Not by
a hundred or even half a hundred !—but by—three
and thirty persons—well meaning, no doubt—hut no
more than thirty-three !—(Hear, hear, hear.)--
But if this should be the case with Edinburgh, there
were other parts of Scotland, which under this time- .
honoured system (which he was in hopes was now
about drawing to its final termination)—which by this
legacy of olden time (but which was one of the worst lega-
cies that could have been bequeathed to us by those who lived
in the childhood of the human race, and before experience
had made it as wise as the present) there were other
parts of Scotland he would repeat that were in a
much worse condition than Edinburgh.—(Hear, hear.)
He need not remind their Lordships that over the whole
of Scotland there was no such thing known as popular
representation. All was close—the Members were not
elected by the proprietors of the land, but by persons
who probably bud not an acre—they were elected by the
holders of what were called superiorities.—(Loud
and continued cries of " Hear, hear.") Those noble
personages who were the advocates of such a system as this
would have an opportunity of arguing upon its
efficacy, and stating the grounds on which they
supported it on Monday and Tuesday next—aye
and a great many more days than Monday and
Tuesday—for they were not sufficient to sup-
port by advocacy such a disgraceful and abominable
system.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE could not refrain from making
a few observations after what had fallen.from the Noble
Lord relative to the opportunity that would be afforded
to the opponents of the measure on Monday and Tues-
day next. Whatever opinion he might, however, en-
tertain with respect to the representation of England, he
for one was ready to join in a Reform of the representation
of Scotland, honeying it loudly called for. But in giving
that Reform, great caution should he used that the means
adopted should not destroy the resources of the country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was extremely glad to
hear that Scotland was likely, in any event, to receive
the blessing of an amended representation ; bat why
was Edinburgh, or the Island of Bute, to be
drenched with innovation, and Gatton and Sarum to be
left as they at present stood ? When his Noble Friend
(Lord Wharneliffe) defended these English rotten bon oughs,
he (the Chancellor) would be obliged to say a ler, words in
favour of the present electors of Edinburgh, tie would say
something which would again draw something from the
Noble Lord in favour of the Engli•:h Reform Bill. Ifa
was aware that Noble Lords would not go the length
which he went to on that question, viz,—" The Bill, the
whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." He was now about
to present a petition—
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the Noble and Learned
Lord had no right to interpret his intentions, and he would
not mix op the questions of the English and Scotch Re-
form Bills.

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN said that nothing was
worse than the present state of Scotch represen-
tation. One reason had been put forth why Scotland
should be left as it was, viz. that that country had prospered
under that system ; but it must be remembered that be.
fore the Union it had no communication with England,
and whatever his opinion of the Union might be, to that
Union he attributed the prosperity of Scotland.
Lord MELVILLE thought it was improper to bring
on the state of the Scotch Representation on the
discussion of the English Reform Bill. The two questions
ought to be kept distinct. He would not give his opinion
upon the state of the Scotch representation at present, but
if a Bill for the purpose of altering the present system
were brought before the House he would then be prepared
with his opinion. The Learned Lord bad made a mistake
in stating that the population of Edinburgh amounted to
140,000, that included nearly the whole of the county of
Edinburgh.
Lord CAMPERDOWN explained
The Lord CHANCELLOR presented a petition from
the Corporation of London, praying that their Lordships
would pass the Reform Bill. It would not do for noble
Lords to say you shall have no Reform in England, but in
revenge you may take Scotland, and do with it as you
please—that would neither please England or Scotland.
He had beep misunderstood in his statement respecting the
people who bad signed the Edinburgh petition. When he
said that it was signed by all those capable of bearing
argot, he did not mean that the people would take up arms;
no, the people would be quiet, but the refusal pf the pre-

sent measure Would be to him (the Chancellor) and to
every lover of his country, to every lover of the tranquility
of his country, a subject of the deepest, of the most heart-
felt regret.
Lori WYNFORD—Whether he was called an Anti.
Reformer or not, he would most certainly, in regard to
tie Reform Bill now in the House, vote according to his
conecience, whatever might be the consequence. He
'night, perhaps, support a Reform consistent with the
rinciples of the Constitution ; but it did not therefore,
follow that he would vote for this measure of Reform.
There were many in that House of the same opinion—
many who would not object to a moderate Reform,
consistent with the principles of the Constitution, though
they would not vote in favour of this Bill, which
was subversive and destructive of the Constitution, of the
independence of Parliament, and of the liberties of the
people. Tine Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack
had triumphed in a supposed change in the opinions of his
Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe)near him; but his Noble
and Learned Friend had himself changed his opinions on
the subject; for this Bill was very different from the
Reforms which he had from time to time been proposing.
In his former Reforms, there were no clauses for dis-
franchising places in the manner in which they were dis-
franchised by the present measure, which was completely
destructive of the Constitution.
Lord HOLLAND—His Noble and Learned Friend on
the Woolsack had been taunted by the Noble and Learned
Lord who stoke last with a change of opinion, since he
had, on former occasions, suggested Reforms of a less ex-
tensive nature than those proposed by the present Bill.—
lie would say a word for his Noble and Learned Friend,
who was perfectly able to answer for himself ; but he
must say that the accusation contained a pregnant con-
sequence, for if his Noble and Learned Friend bad proposed
lt,s extensive Reforms, these Reforms had by the Anti-
Reformers been uniformly rejected—(Year)--and if by
that rejection they had rendered a measure more necessary,
they ought to be the first to vote for it. They had better
consider what would be the consequence of blindly, stu-
pidly, and dangerously rejecting a measure which was
adapted to the times and ardently desired by the nation,
and which would restore and confirm the real ancient Con-
stitution of the country.—(Hear.) One effect of the mea-
sure was, that even those who were prepared to oppose it
were anxious not tin be thought hostile to all Reform, and
were displeased at being called Anti-Reformers. But these
concealed Reformers—(Hear)—who came forward now, at
the eleventh hour, and protested that they would not op-
pose moderate Reform, had unfortunately never found out
a Reform to suit them.—(llear.) But where was their own
Reform even now ? It was, indeed, now too late; but why
had they not proposed their own Reform before? It was
rather doubtful whether they had had any Reform at all in
contemplation. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharn-
cliffe) had said, that he had given no Opinion on the ques-
tion of Reform ; but if he had not, he had at least made
important admissions. He had admitted two important
facts—first, that the system of representation in Scotland
required a complete Reform.—(No, no)—well, then, if the
Noble Lord did not use the word " complete," he had said
that the system required Reform to a considerable extent,
and that he would be ready to support such a Reform ;
and secondly, the Noble Lord had by that admission ac-
knowledged that it might be very proper, i❑ some cases at
least, to get rid of ancient abuses —(Hear, hear.) It
ought to be recollected that his Noble and Learned Friend
had on a former occasion proposed to put an end to the
bare superiority votes, but that even to that the Anti-
Reformers had refused their assent—(Hear, hear)—al-
though they were now angry at being called Anti-Re-
formers, and as an apology for their hostility to an efficient
but sober and moderate measure of Reform, said that they
were prepared to support Reform to some extent.----( Hear. )
Lord WHARNCLIFFE, in reply, said that the differ-
ence between himself and the Noble Lords opposite was
just this, that they would support the measure brought up
from the Commons ; whereas he should oppose it as a
measure which, in his conscience, he believed to be sub-
versive of the liberties of the people, and detrimental to
every part of the Constitution.

_ .
The LORD CHANCELLOR then quitted the Woolsack
for the purpose of presenting a petition from the Lord
Mayor and Livery of London in Common Hall assembled,
in favour of the measure then before the House fur effect•
ing a Reform in the other House of Parliament. Their
Lordships would see that the present petition did not pro-
ceed from the Corporation of London, but was signed by
the Lord Mayor and certain of the Aldermen and
Liverymen of London, and, therefore, to all intents
and purposes, was a petition from the Livery of
London, and therefore entitled to all the respect to
which a petition proceeding from such a body was fairly
entitled. In reference to what had fallen from a Noble and
Learned Friend of his, he would say that the Bill which
he had described as having been drawn up by him (the
Lord Chancellor) was really one which never had an ex-
istence. Nothing could be more erroneous than to say
that this Bill—if Bill it could be called—contained no
clause for the disfranchisement of Gatton or Old Sarum—
in truth he did not at the time referred to contemplate any
clauses at all—his measure would have been universal.
Though he had had some conversation with several friends
of his, from whom he expected support in the other House
for the measure he had there intended to propose, yet that
conversation related merely to outlines—nothing had been
reduced to writing, not even the heads of a Bill—pen had
never been put to paper on the subject. Before, how-
ever, he had time to bring that measure before the other
House of Parliament, an event occurred, in consequence
of which he was called from the formation of his own in-
dividual measure to consult with others as to what measure
and extent of Reform would satisfy the people of England.
His plan, though different in some respects from the Bill
then before the I-louse, did embrace a considerable pro-
portion of it— it embraced the whole of the Scotch Bill ;
but, certainly, the measure then on the table of the House
went further than he had contemplated. How and why
he did not go so far, he should hereafter be fully prepared
to show. That he afterwards acceded to a more ex-
tensive measure, he could also show to have been a course
perfectly consistent with the principles he had always pro-
fessed. What he then stated was no secret. It was
matter well known to the public—he had spoken those
sentiments at Leeds, and he had delivered them
in the House of Commons. The Bill then before
the house would, he felt assured, be productive of great
and unmingled good—it was safe and practical, and, as
far as it went, excellent. When his Noble and Learned
Friend talked of Law Reform, and of what he should do,
and what might be done by a Lord Chancellor, his mind
naturally turned upon that which formed an object of
anxious attention to every aspirant in the legal profession,
and his Noble and Learned Friend belonging to that pro-
fession, his young ambit:6n was naturally excited when
he looked at the possible possession of the Great Seal. He
(the Lord Chancellor), when the office of Lord Chancellor
devolved upon his Noble and Learned Friend—and he
cared not how soon he might be relieved from its labours
himself—should give the most cordial and hearty assist-
ance in advancing the great work of Law Reform, and hid
his Noble Fiend God speed. As to the measure on their
Lordships' table, he hoped that when they (lid come to
discuss it, they would proceed with it deliberately, calmly,
and with the gravity which became such an occasion_.
that all considerations merely personal should be left out of
view, and 'that the argumentum ad hondnem should be as
little resorted to as possible ; and lie begged leave to add,
that the House should be prudent in adopting that course,
whether they regarded the prerogatives of the Monarchy,
the rights of property, or the liberties of the people.
Whether they rejected or listened to the demand of a
united people, backed by the voice of their representatives ;
whether regarding the rights of that people or the security
of the British Constitution, there never yet were men who
stood upon the brink of a more important discussion than
did that House, being, as it was, on the eve of a debate
upon Parliamentary Refarm.
Lord WYNFOIID stated, in explanation, that he had
heard in that House that the plan of the Noble and Learned
Lord upon the Woolsack embraced the disfranchisement of
nomination boroughs.
The petition was then re id and laid on the table.
BELGIUM.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in rising for the
purpose of obtaining from Noble Lords opposite some in-
formation on the subject of Belgium, said that he regret-
ted the absence of the Noble Earl at the bead of his, Ma-
jesty's Government ; but still he should address himself to
the Noble Viscount, the Secretary of State, and he hoped
that that Noble Lord would be able to reconcile the fo-
reign policy of the present Administration with that policy
in which lie took a part when his (Lord Londonderry's)
Noble Relative conducted negociations at Vienna. Now
he should come to the matter to which he wished to Lail
the attention of their Lordships. He wished to know,
amongst other things, upon what ground this country
could be allowed to acquiesce in an arrangement made by
the five Great Powers relating to the Belgian fortress's :
an arrangement from m hich Holland was excluded ? Then
again Ptince Leopold left this country—and of that he
particularly complained—without the slightest communi-
cation to Parliament on the subject from his Majesty's
Government; and to that hour they were left in igne ranee
as to whether or not he had been acknowledged or would
be acknowledged by Prussia. When he referred to the ne-
cessary documents, the ]louse would see that the Niqg
of Ilanover, as a Member of t: e German Confederation,
was contravening tbat which the King of England was

doing—the protocols issuing from Germany and those
from Downing-street being directly at variance. The
Noble Marquis then proceeded to contrast the con-
duct of the present Administration with that of
Lord Castlereagh, in respect to the information af-
forded to Parliament, in a manner highly favourable
to the latter. He next pressed upon his Ma-
jesty's Government the necessity which there was to in-
form the House how soon they were to look to the eva-
cuation of Belgium, now occupied by foreign troops.
There was another point upon which he desired informa-
tion. A report had gone abroad that the B I.;ian army
was to be organized and officered by Frenchmen. He
could not believe that any Government in England would
supinely suffer such an unheard-of proceeding. There
were still 12,000 French soldiers in Belgium ; and that,
though a most objectionable state of things, was as nothing
compared to the Belgian army itself being officered by
Frenchmen—affording to France a direct controul and
management in that army. He really could not have
given the slightest credit to such a rumour, if the names
of the officers had not been given to the public. It was
impossible that Leopold could have the necessary authority
over such an army as that. In proof of his assertion, he
would ask a Noble Lord near him, who had long been
connected with Portugal, if when the army of that coun-
try was officced by Englishmen, it was not, i❑ effect, an
army at the d.sposal of England; was it not, in truth, the
same as a Br",tish army ? It was said, that Leopold was
independent; but how could he be independent, as long
as the French army remained in Belgium ? No ; inde-
pendence was out of the question ; for France was doing
everything in her power to induce Leopold and England,
and every State i❑ Europe, to truckle to her own ascen-
dancy. The Noble Lord then proceeded to contend for
the right which Holland lied to be a party to any treaty or
arrangement respecting the demolition of the Belgian
fortresses. In proof of this the Noble Marquis recd
several extracts from some document, but did not state
which in support of his argument, and contended that this
country was bound to respect the independence of llol-
land, and that it was a great error in our foreign policy to
acquiesce in the demolition of the Belgian fortresses. He
next proceeded to maintain, that as Holland was no party
to the treaty respecting the fortresses, she might. claim
restitution of those colonies which she had ceded in con-
sequence of her union with Belgium. He need not, he
trusted, tell their Lordships that his object in these re-
marks was to obtain information, for he feared that the
present Government were under the influence of an anxious
desire to embrace France too closely, erroneously imagin-
ing, that if we were at peace with France, we were sure
to be so with the rest of the world. There were, more-
over, the most open and undisguised consultations between
the British Government and the French Ambassador in
this country on all matters of European policy; and it
would almost seem as if they could do nothing without his
leave—without the leave of that diplomatist, who had pre-
sented to the First Consul the well-known memorial of
the 14th Brumaire, year 11. Looking, then, to all those
circumstances, lie confessed be could not help feeling
strongly on the subject of the foreign policy of this country;
and so feeling, lie should ill discharge Isis duty if he did
n t freely give expression to his sentiments. The instruc-
tions and the documents to which those negociations gave
rise would be of great importance ; and if any Noble Lord
it his side of the House should hereafter hold the portfolio
of Foreign Affairs, some curious information might be
disclosed. He should certainly like to see laid before the
House the private letter which passed upon the subject be-
tween the Noble Earl and M. Casimir Perier.—(A laugh.)
He begged to know why the papers called for respecting
Portugal had not been produced ? He had a right to com-
plain that the present Government, since they came into
office, had constantly persevered in withholding from their
Lordships all information respecting the foreign relations
of time country. He concluded, by moving " That an
humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that
he would be pleased to order to be laid before the House,
copies or extracts froni the communications of his Ma-
jesty's Government with the Governments of France and
Belgium, respecting the employment of French officers by
the latter Government for the avowed purpose of disciplin-
ing and organizing the Belgian army."

-Lord GODERICH was afraid that, in the few obser-
vations which he should have the honour of addressing to
their Lordships, he should be under the necessity of in-
flicting a grievous disappointment upon his Noble Friend
who had brought forward this motion. His Noble Friend
appeared to think that it was the duty of the Government on
this occasion to take an opportunity of entering into a ge-
neral discussion of a most discursive nature not only upon
every point connected with the motion of rrkoble Friend,
but also upon every other point which his Ale Friend
had raised with regard to Portugal, to France, and, indeed,
' with regard to the foreign policy of this rind of all other
countries in Europe. Now he must be allowed to tell his
Noble Friend, that either he or his Noble Friend hail alto-
gether mistaken the duty of an Administration, circum-
stanced as the present was, and that he should, far from
embracing, take care to avoid the opportunity which his
Noble Friend had so temptingly furnished him with. A
discussion like that in which his Noble Friend had em-
barked, was not only inconvenient, but even painful to the
Government, under existing circumstances, because there
was no other mode by which they could vindicate them-
selves from the imputations which his Noble Friend had
east upon them, than to abandon their duty by entering
into explanations which would be in the highest possible
degree detrimental to the public interest.—(Cheers.) His
of those facts which were necessary for the vindication of
public duty restrained him from entering into the statement
himself and his colleagues ; and his Noble Friend, there-
fore, mi.st be left in the enjoyment of all the triumph he
found in casting imputations which were not the less un-
founded because it happened to be necessary that the public
service required that the refutation of them should be de-
layed, He hardly knew how to deal with the motion of
his Noble Friend, or, he should rather say, with the speech
of his Noble Friend. If he admitted any of the proposi-
tions which his Noble Friend had laid down, then his Noble
Friend would claim credit to himself for having drawn
correct inferences from those propositions ; and if he gave
his Noble Friend any explanation at all, his Noble Friend
would he sure to ask for more. His Noble Friend ap-
peared to think that discussions of this nature were the
easiest possible. —(" No, no," from Lord LONDONDERRY.)
No: he knew that his Noble Friend had not said so ; but
then the clear and obvious inference from the course which
his Noble Friend had pursued was, that nothing could be
so easy as to discuss, publicly, negotiations which, besides
being the most important and most delicate possible, were
not yet completed. He must contend that nue was not a
fair course of proceeding, and that there Wa ae little of
justice as of good reasoning in his Noble Fr:entl's saying,
,6lf you do not give me the information I ask, than the
accusations I make against you must be true This, he
said, was not fair, because., though his Noble Kier al would
doubtless be very much gratified with the informitioe, yet
his Noble Friend ought to know that it was information
which the Ministers were bound in duty not to give him.
—(Hear, hear.) Unless his Noble Friend could prove
that it was fair to assail an opponent whose hands were
tied, his Noble Friend must fail in demonstrating that the
course of his proceeding was not unfair. This, then,
was his answer to the motion of his Noble Friend—
(Cheers)—and with this answer he should cheerfully
throw himself upon the good sense and justice of their
Lordships, but that he felt himself called upon to advert
to one or two points of his Noble Friend's speech. The
first of these points--though the most insigniticaet of
1117;1s:1—.which he felt himself called upon to notice was
—his Noble Friend had asked him how it hap.,
nied that he, who had been a party to, and a coadjutor
in, the great settlement of Europe in could
agree with his Noble Friend at the head of the Ad-
ministration in the observations which his Noble Friend
had made against many portions of that settlement.—
Nov he assured his Noble Friend that he (Lord Lon-
donderry-) had given him credit for a part which lie
had not taken in that settlement. He was not even a
member of the Cabinet at that time, although, through
tire Kindness and attention of a relative of his Noble
Friend, he had been made acquainted with the grounds of
that settlement. He had no hesitation in saying, farther,
that he cordially agreed it; that settlement, not because he
thought best settlement, but because he thought
that lt'ist the best
hest which could he effected under ex-
isting circumstances, He nliglit have thought that, with
regard to many parts of it, a much better settlement might
have been made, and his Noble Friend was mistaken if he
supposed that others, who were really what he was not—
parties to the settlement—did en'ertain the same oeje,ic.-0 ;
I,unilnietdnettri, questionrelarltlltt‘ivmeli a
vtAry:a:Suas''t
circumstances
rnlc.oeutantl'systant ticeemi
sn eilnitcbh that
mustt choeute(l:fltresnetent:aeltesi
met whether,s
tet hr e bneltal-,:tre
matters
e(a)fn snPoolfmailcotlm
siiy be considered in order to make any settlement at all.
ill,
According to tire limited means of judg-
ment at the One; he .bought that the
__(Hear, hear.)
ment which he
best settlement tha.i was
formingcte anshv
aaotsepvi opinion, oe:n heem aanduasetei
aftere that judgment, or whether he retained that judg-
b
as a Minister, he was not called upon to look hack to
what things were seventeen years ago, and act in con-
furmity tti ith them, but, it was his business, and thebusiness4s of every other Alinister, to look at existing
circtutrtances, and to dell with them. as prudence,
and justice,, 411(1. the national interest required.—
02heel." But his Noble Friend bad said to him further,

" flow could you, a party to the great settlement of Eu-
rope in 1814, agree to the separation of Belgium from
Holland ?" This was really a most extraordinary ques-
tion. Had he or had any of his colleagues been parties
to this separation ? Did they not find that separation
revolution
i
tion, on their accession to
in t.
e France— aCnhde ei
rns .)
BelgiumlHad
te
His Noble Friend must, upon a
ocu effectedoffi.mt
c ephef
found
a?_r whenebso(e
tcnththh tetiehArescd.a n)mi i en
moment's reflection, see that the present Government could
have no hand in consenting to either of these events, and
he could assure his Noble Friend that the one great object
of himself and his colleagues had been to render those
events as innocuous as it was possible to render changes
so important and so extensive as these changes were ; and
he need hardly observe that all changes which were
sudden in their advent, and extensive in their effects,
[night, though tending to the most beneficial, lead to the
most disastrous results if not watched over.—(Hear,
hear.) Far be it from him to blame any one who had
been a party to these events, and he had made these ob-
servations fur no other purpose than to show how unrea
sonable was the imputation of inconsistency which his
Noble Friend had been pleased to make against him.—
(Cheers.) Another part of his Noble Friend's speech to
which he desired to advert was that which related to
Prince Talleyrand, whom his Noble Friend had supposed
to have great influence upon the councils of this country,
and whom, proceeding on that supposition, and
span certain parts of that illustrious person's past
life, his Noble Friend had thought he was
justified in pursuing with the most acrimonious animad-
version, although an Ambassador from a friendly Power.
—(Loud cries of " hear.") His Noble Friend, to do him
justice, had not dipped his arrows so deeply in gall on this
as on a former occasion; but still he must say that his
Noble Friend had, even on this occasion, indulged in lan-
guage the most imprudent and the most indiscreet, that
any public man could be betrayed into with regard to the
Ambassador of a friendly Power.—(Cheers.) He would
not willingly have touched upon this part of his Noble
Friend's speech, because he thought that the sooner it was
forgotten the better ; but then, if he were silent with re-
gard to .it, it might be supposed that the :Government
were of opinion that these animadversions were not mis-
placed ; and if that were the case, the plain inference was,
that Prince Talleyrand ought not to be allowed to remain
here. If the Government entertained the same opinioi.
as his Noble Friend of Prince Talleyrand, it would be
their duty to represent to his Majesty the King of the
French, that they could not transact business with such
a person. He felt it necessary, therefore, to speak as be
had spoken respecting these aspersions of the character of
an individual whose station ought to have shielded him from
such an assault.—(Cheers.) He knew that his Noble
Friend would say that, because he protested against this
indiscreet, and imprudent, and unjustifiable language, the
Government were truckling to France. Let him, however,
remind his Noble Friend, that Prince Talleyrand had
been the Minister of the last two Kings of France ;
and the Prince Talleyrand had also a large and important
share in the deliberations of the Congress of Vienna—the
result of which deliberations the Noble Marquis thought
so wise and so good.—(Cheers.) Surely the Noble Mar-
quis might have thought of these facts ; but if be had, he
would never have entered upon the unjust, as well as the
invidious, occupation of ransacking every portion of Prince
Talleyrand's life, and bringing up in judgment against him,
as present deeds and as acts of this day, transactions which
had taken place when the circumstances of France were
so different, and when no man could act as his reason or
his inc,ination dictated, but as the strong and uncontroul-
able tide of affairs compelled him to fashion his course.—
(Cheers.) He should be glad to meet in detail if he could
the charge of his Noble Friend, that this Government was
truckling to France ; but his Noble Friend had found the
justification of that charge in a heap of measures and
transactions which his Noble Friend had so huddled toge-
gether, that he (Lord Goderich) confessed he could see
nothing but confusion in them. With the charge, there-
fore, and with that only, was it po-sible for him to deal.
In the outset he indignantly denied that there was the
slightest ground for the accusation.—(Cheers.) The con-
duct of this Government towards France bad been regu-
lated only by considerations of amity and justice, which
considerations had regulated their conduct towards every
other Power; and never, he was happy to say, had
there been a time at which a more cordial unanimity
existed between a Government of this country and the re
presentative of all the great Powers of Europe than the
present moment.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend had, in-
deed, stigmatized the policy of the Government in the
harshest terms, and hail given his advice as to what their
policy ought to be, and he 'hoped that no future Ministers
would be absurd enough to take his Noble Friend's advice,
however kindly it might be offered; and lie could assure
their Lordships, that the present Government to whom
that advice was offered in any but terms of friendship,
would never dream of taking his Noble Friend to their
councils.---(Cheers and laughter.) He had only now to
notice the nature of the information which his Noble
Friend sought to acquire by this motion, which informa-
tion related to the intention of King Leopold, to include in
Isis service foreign officers, and, among those, French offi-
cers. He had already stated that the public in'erest pre-
cluded hint from meeting this subject as it ought to be met.
Allow him, however, to observe, that it was by no means
a matter of course that an independent State—for Bel-
gium was an independent State, however difficult might
be the circumstances by which it was surrounded—
should be interfered with by any other power for the
purpose of preventing it from taking into its mili-
tary service foreign officers.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, this,
which his Noble Friend complained of as an intention
of King Leopold, was a common practice with other
sovereigns, he might almost say an universal prac-
tice. There was nothing new in it ; but, on the contrary,
some of the most eminent soldiers who had led armies to
battle had not been natives of the countries whose forces
they commanded.—(Hear, hear.) This was particularly
the case with Russia, among whose commanders who had
not been Russians, it would be sufficient to mention
General Diebitsch and Admiral Greig. His Noble Friend
had, perhaps, forgotten that it was under the auspices of
the latter that the Russians first attempted to form a navy.
The same was true, with regard to Austria, to Prussia, to
Spain; and, indeed, to every nation in the world. He
need hardly observe that Holland was not excluded from
this observation ; or, be should rather say, that her forces
had more commonly been led by foreigners than by
Dutchmen. Gen. Chassk, too, he believed was a Frenchman.
Here a Noble Lord, either the Loan CHANCELLOR or
some other Noble Lord in his vicinity, made an observe-
, lion ; but in a tone so low that it was not heard at the
bar. Lord GonEetcet, too, appeared not to 1,:-.ve ob-
served it, and was continuing his speech, when
The Marquis of LONDOND!4RRY ros.:: and said,—
"My Lords, I rise to order. I beg to put it to the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, whether it is
orderly for a Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack,
or for any other Noble Lord, to prompt another Noble
Lord when he is speaking. I beg to put this question to
the Noble and Learned Lard."

The LORD CHANCELLOR—Now, my Lords, I beg
to state to you, once for all, that I will not sit here to be
bothered with questions which emanate from the ridicu-
lous ideas of certain absurd individuals, wbe, (...hunot or will
not see any thing however clear, t;nderstand any thing
however intelligible ; and who, whether a Noble Lord is
engaged in conver4ation, or whether he addresses the
House lipmi his legs, seem, by an unhappy i*:mity of
nature, to be limentubly incap icitited front understanding
what is going on. I beg moreavtdr to state to the Noble
Marquis (Londonderry), whom I have in my eye, that for
the future I will answer no question of his—will give him
no information whatsoever. If the Noble Lord &Oil ag-
grieved at any thing I may happen to do, let l„im proceed
against me by a vote of censure, arAd trust I shall know
how to defend myselr, but whi answer no more of his
questions.

- The Marquis of LONDONDERRY._I only ash Qd the
Noble Lord a question as to a point of o7ider, which I
sonal and offensive eNv,renionQ which the Noble and
conceive that I bad a perfect right to 40, As to the per •
Learned Lord has thougrit proper to use towards me, I
be& to sell the -Noble and Learned Lord that I shall be Els,t/
to hear them repeated in another place, and--t
The Duke of RICHMOND—My Lordt, zise to order.
I move that the words of the Noble 4,larquis be taken down.
The LORD CHANCE‘LOR:--No ; I trust that my
Noble Friend w;lit withdriw that motion, and allow co
then aisn,otthheart:_starsictthlye
ittt iaing,paelirshuarpds,, atondy
t a
quite as much out of ordek as
oinusrigLnoi !Lain! nrott•iter:to troe
answer. 2 tq' where
o n
sthpeeakpionign,t
for pronpt
oonrede;obiell4l,ocitinisower
9A out of 100 of the things which day after oty.p4ss in
this House,—or perhaps I am wrong even 41 allowing that
one of every 100 of those thing!, wqd be within the strict
Noble Marquis oaili it,—is
line of order if each weio :-.subjected to the strict test of the
letter of that, line.. As an illustration, let me observe; tktat
if e,,e strict ruts of order had been observed, I might to
have called the Noble Marquis to order when, in rising to
put a question about Belgiiirc, he Quirk a speech about
Spain, and Poly,iga!,4 Rnd Holland, and France, and Prince
Talleyrand 4ri,a thousand other matters.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) As to the hint which the Noble Marquis has
thrown out to me,—filling as I do the highest
office in the land,—and in a public assembly tike the pre-
sent, where such hints are twt t;sually given,.aa to that

my Lords, I have only to say, that it has never Lef n
ns habit to say in one place any thing which I woald not
repeat in another ; and that it is not likely that I should
fan into that habit now.

The Duke of RICHMOND—I shall certainly withdraw
,Ity motion, at the request of my Noble Friend. lam
sire that the Noble Marquis, when he talks of order, must
,ee that nothing can, by possibility, be more disorderly
th in for a Noble Lord to rise in his place, and invite the
Lord Chancellor,—or, indeed, any other Noble Lord. to
fight a duel ; for such was the meaning of the words of the
N ible Marquis, and it is of no use mincing the matter...._
(Cheers and laughter.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose again, and
Lord Goderich with him. The former attempted to address
the House, but

Lord HOLLAND said, that he also must rise to order.
When a Noble Lord was interrupted upon a point of
order,—as his Noble Friend (Lord Goderich) had been,—..
that Noble Lord bad a right to be first heard.
Lord GODERICH had some difficulty in speaking to
the point of order, and had risen for the purpose of closing
those observations which he was addressing to their Lord-
ships when he was interrupted by his Noble Friend. He
must, however, say, that if the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack had made any observation, not one word of
that observation had reached him. He would not detain
their Lordships any farther than to observe, that he might
add to the catalogue of officers in the service of countries
sf which they were not natives, the Duke of Saxe-Weimar,
whom every one knew not to be a native of Holland. If,
then, the practice of employing foreign officers was common
to every power in Europe, surely there must be a very strong
case made out before one country could be justified iu in-
t-rfering with an independent Power for the purpose of pre-
venting that Power from indulging a practice which had
not been denied to any other sovereign.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that in the very
few words which he had to offer on this subject, he could
assure the Noble Lords opposite that nothing could be
arther from his wish than to embarrass the Govern-
ment, or to disturb that good understanding which, he was
elost happy to hear, prevailed between this and the Go-
vernments of the other Powers of Europe. lie must
further assure their Lordship. that there was no man in
,his country more desirous than he was to witness the
preservation of peace, not only between England and
France, but all over Europe. He might differ with the
Noble Lords opposite as to the best mode of preserving
that peace, but be certainly did not differ from them as to
the necessity of preserving it, and he should most assuredly
do nothing to hamper or to obstruct them in their ex-
ertions for the attainment of that most desirable of all
objects. At the same time be was free to confess, that
sis view of the subject before them—which was the ens-
sloyment of French officers in the Belgian army—was
different from that taken by the Noble Lord who had just
sat down. Before, however, he stated what his view of
the subject was, he must be allowed to say a few words
respecting an illustrious individual (Prince Talleyrand),
who had been so strongly animadverted upon by his Noble
Friend near him. True it was that that ildustrious indi-
vidual had enjoyed, in a very high degree, the confidence of his
Noble Friend's deceased relative; and true it also was, that
none of the great measures which had been resolved upon at
Vienna and at Paris had been concerted or carried on
without the intervention of that illustrious person. He
had no hesitation in saying that both at that time, in every
me of the great transactions which took place then, and
n every transaction in which he had been engaged with
Prince Talleyrand since, the latest of which had occurred
luring the short period in which he (the Duke of Wel-
angton) had been in his Majesty's councils after the late
revolution in France,—he had no hesitation, he said, in
declaring, that in all those transactions, front the first to
the last of them, no noon could have conducted himself
with more firmness and ability with regard to his own
country, or with more uprightness and honour in all his
communications with the Minister. of other countries,
than Prince Talleyrand.—(Cheers.) They had heard a
flood deal of Prince Talleyrand from many quarters, hut he
felt himself bound to declare it to be his sincere and con-
scientious belief that no man's public and private character
had ever been so much belied as both the public and the
private character of that illustrious individual had been...—.
(Much cheering.) He had thought it necessary, in corn_
won justice, to say this much of an individual respecting
,vhose conduct and character he had no small means of
forming a judgment. And now, as to the subject before
their Lordships.—He could but remind their Lordships
that it was one in which the interests of Europe at large
were materially involved, though we had taken the
greatest part in it. When King Leopold left this country,
he had congratulated their Lordships upon the proof
which his Majesty then gave of his desire to be an
independent Sovereign. He believed that it was
the intention of Government that he should continue in-
dependent, as well of this as all other Powers. He firmly
believed, moreover, that it was owing to our Government
that the French army had been withdrawn from Belgium,
and that the Government had insisted upon the with-
drawal, from the conviction that King Leopold could not
he independent while that army remained. It was his
opinion that titers Lever was in any part of the history of
the world a period at which it would he -more easy
than at the present for the independent sovereign
.if an independent state to assume a station in.
dependent of all the world, as a neutral state of
Europe. This it was at present in the power of King
Leopold to do, but it might not be in his power to do so
few months hence, for the events of a few months might
make this as difficult as it LOW .vas easy. The Noble
Lord who had just sat down had said, thet, as an inde-
pendent sovereign, King Leopold had a right to take
foreign officers into his service, and the Noble Lord had
instanced the practice of other countries in proof of this
position. Now, allow him to observe, that if Belgium
were like Prussia or Roseia, which bad very large
armies, the employment of foreign officers would not
be a matter of much consequence, because the nuns-
her of them must bear a small proportion to the
number of native officers, and a still smaller proportion
to the number of the troops. Belgium, however, bed
an army of not more than 20,000 or 30,000 at most.
Now see what thu officer of a regiment was : he
was the very mind and soul of his soldiers. Let them
look at their own Acts of Parliament, and they would
find that by the law of England foreign officers were not
allowed to serve our piny, And why had such Acts been
posed ? It was because we were sensible of how vast an
influence the (Acerb must necessarilyhave over the soldiers
they colon-landed. Such, too, haul been the law of Bel-
gium until it was altered at the itstance of the King. It
was said that there were stow in Be/glues as many as 400
foreign officers. HQ had heard, too,—he should be glad
to learn that this was not true,—that 200 cuirassiers had
entered Tutarr.ay, that there were as many as 800 at Liege,
and 30,C, or 400 in Ath. These reports might be erro-
ineous, but the statements with regard to the officers rested
upon good authority. They knew that French officers had
received permission from the King of the French to serve
in Belgium ; bqt upon what condition ? Why, the con-
dition was, that they should wear the French uniform and
wear their national cockade. Theae was another point,
too, connected with this suts3ecs, which ought not to be
overlooked. General 13,elliard, nue of those officers, was
not only a soldier of well•known military talents, but he
happened ulsa ea he the French Ambassador at Brussels.
hear.) The Noble Lord had said that King
Leopold was an independent Prince. Independeuo What,
a
with an army of 20,Q,Ce1l soldiers, officered by Frenchmen ?
The thing was inotseasible!—(Hear, hear.) But they load
been told thS t the independence of the King of Belgium
was to ha guaranteed by England wad by the other great
Powers of Europe. This, however, was again impossible.
, for there could be no such guarantee if the King of Belgium
was to have an army sea constituted. He supposed that
this plan of officezing the Belgian army with Frenchmen
was a selaseitute for the use of French troops. If so, be,
must be allowed to say, that the substitute haul been most
unwisely chosen. But this was not all. By the proposed
arrangements the Netliellauds were to constitute a neutral
state. He did nut .suarrel with this arrange:talent, consi-
dering the datealties which would stand in the way of any
°thee arrangement;
and in spite of the inconveniences
which might result from it to the other parts of
Europe— inconveniences so which he was by no
means insensible-ea/4e wally believed that the arrangement
would be fassaad to answer if it were carried into strict
exesestian, especially by Frances The Netherlands, how-
ever, could never be n neutralstate with such an army as
it was now proposal ee, give to King Leopold, and he was
sure it was triAtv p,ecesaary to allude to these considerations
ia ordevec, Awaken the Noble Lords opposite to a sense of
tk,ar.. impossibility of the thing. No one could be more de-
: sieoas than he was to see this arrangement succeed, in or-
der that the anxiety of *.urope might no longer be in-
tently fixed noon, that part of the world ; but it never
could snoceed if this military plan were allowed to esaOn.
There sees yet. Ppotk.er point in which he should wish to
French
put this ealiect, and that was, that the as
ht ne mieht
~Acers was altogether unnecessiatys
Heu 'this subject, be-
speak with some degree of acurkaencY:ing a little of that
cause he had oppo Vasa the unfortunate dispute
country and of i,ta army. sPhen
hroke out, and the expedi-
between Uoiland and Belgiumiost Brussels failed, the milt-
tic,n of Prince Frederick fig •
ct)ontr C. separated. Al. the Be'g'art
tary force of the two
it •I in Belgium, and was well known that
officers remained
they had seen must qualify them for the datite
the service .httgwe o.fFren

*Met it was now proposed to confide to foreigners. Then
there was the youth or Belgium. Was it meant to be con-
tended that the youth of Belgium would not take up arms
in defence of a Monarch who had been elected by the voice
of the people, end that it was necessary for King Leopold
to apply to his neighbour the French King for military
assistance ? He denied the possibility of such necessity.
But be would not detain their Lordships farther. His only
object in making these few observations had been, to ex-
pose an arrangement which he was convinced would make
King Leopold little better than a Prefect of France.
Lord HOLLAND merely rose for the purpose of ob-
serving that, in order to come to a decision upon the motion
before them, it would be by no means necessary for their
Lordships to enter into the consideration of the subjects to
which the Noble Duke had adverted. There was one part
of the Noble Duke's speech which had given him the
greatest pleasure. and which reflected the highest credit
upon the Noble Duke. He need hardly say that he alluded
to the temper, the manliness, and generosity with which
the Noble Duke had animadverted upon what had fallen
from the Noble Marquis with regard to Prince Talleyrand.
—(Cheers.) On public as well as on private grounds he
thanked the Noble Duke for that part of his speech. There
could be little difference of opinion as to the injustice,
and the want of generosity, of speaking in harsh and in-
sulting terms respecting the Ambassador of a friendly
Power, resident amongst 111?. On the other hand, he felt
that there could be no good taste in dwelling upon the
virtue and merits of a man's own acquaintance, in an as-
sembly like that of their Lordships; yet he trusted that
he might be allowed to observe that 40 years' acquaintance
with the noble individual who had been alluded to,
enabled him to bear his testimony to the fact, that,
although those 4.0 years had been passed during a time
peculiarly fraught with calumnies of every description,
there had been no man's private character more shame-
fully traduced, and no man's public character more mis-
taken and misrepresented, than the private and public
character of Prince Talleyrand.—(Hear.) With regard
to the question before their Lordships, he must remind
their Lordships that in coming to a decision upon it, they
had merely to consider whether any Parliamentary grounds
had been made out for the production of the papers if
called for. It might be that much that had fallen from
the Noble Duke was of such a nature as to render it de-
serving of the notice and consideration of King Leopold ;
but had their Lordships any thing to do with it? He
thought not, and if the motion were agreed to, would
that enable the Government to form a better opinion on
the subject? Certainly not. The general principle
applicable to this subject was, that an independent Prince
might employ foreign officers if he thought proper. It
was true that we had a municipal law—a very wise muni-
cipal law,—which prohibited foreigners from serving in
our army ; but that law would not give any stranger the
right of saying, that though we might choose to repeal
that law, still we should not employ foreign troops.—
(Hear, hear.) This was an internal regulation of our
own, and whether we adhered to it or abandoned it, was
our own affair, not the business of any foreign Power.
Well, then, this municipal law of ours did not change the
general principle—a principle which had been acted upon
by every nation in the world without any exception, and
particular'y in Portugal, where foreign officers had fre-
quently been employed for the temporary purpose of orga-
nizing the military force of that country. And herein, let
him observe, l ty the fallacy of the Noble Duke's reason-
ing: for the Noble Duke bad made no distinction between
permanent employment and the organizing and disciplin-
ing a force, which was a temporary affair. Well, then,
if the general principle,—the universal right,—was as he
had stated it to be,—and he believed that no one would
venture to deny the position,—the only remaining ques-
tion was, whether there was in this case any peculiar
circumstances which took Belgium out of the general
principle. If there were any such peculiar circum-
stances., had their Lordships any reason to believe that
the Government had lost sight of them? No one
had assigned any reason for such belief,—no one
bad even expressed such belief. Well, then, if there
did exist such peculiar circumstances, and if there
were no reason to believe that if they did exist the Govern-
ment would lose sight of them, must it not be clear that
the Government were engaged in a negotiation of consider-
able importance and delicacy, which, by ,agreeing to this
motion, their Lordships would take out of the hands of
Government into their own management ?—(Hear, hear.)
This, he apprehended, was the real state of the question
before their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.) The speech of
the Noble Duke might be, and in his opinion, would have
been, an exceedingly good speech for the Parliament of
Belgium, but not for a British Parliament, he thought.
He would not go into the facts connected with the subject,
for that would be in effect to agree to the motion, the ob-
ject of which was, of course, to get at those facts. The
Noble Duke bad justly stated that the object of the settle-
ment of the affairs of Belgium was to make it a neutral
state, and the Noble Duke had admitted that he liked the
arrangement. But the Noble Duke had forgotten that
Belgium was not yet placed in that condition. King
Leopold, at present, was only under an armistice with a
neighbouring and hostile power—(Hear)—and be was
therefore taking, not from France only, but from any
other quarter from which he could procure them, the
means of organizing his army, which, surely, was not an
improper but rather a necessary precaution, seeing that in
the neighbouring country every preparation was being
made for warfare.—(Hear.) The steps, therefore, which
King Leopold was taking, might, in his view of the ques-
tion, be very fairly considered as steps essential for his own
defence. Then see to what inquiries discussions like these
might lead. Might they nut excite others to call for an
inquiry into the military force of other Powers? Might
not Belgium call for an investigation into what was going
on in the Dutch army, and might not France demand to
know how many Prussians or Austrians happened to be in
the Russian army which occupied Poland ?—( Hear, hear.)
He put forward these considerations for no other purpose
than to show the tendency of discussions like the present ;
because hebad already stated that he resisted the motion for
the reasons, that no Parliamentary grounds had been made
nut for it, and that if agreed to, it could not by possibility
lead to any good.—(Hear, bear.)
The Earl of ORFORD said that he, and the Noble
Lords who thought with him on this subject, did not deny
the abstract right of any independent Sovereign to employ
foreign troops if he pleased, but that their fear arose from
so many French officers being employed in the Belgian
army as would place Belgium under the domination of
France.
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not rise for the pur-
pose of prolonging this discussion, but merely to state
clearly and shortly she grounds on which the motion was
resisted by the Government. if the papers moved for did
not exist, there was an end of the motion at once. If such
papers were in existence, that proved that the Government
was engaged in one of the moat difficult and the most deli-
cate negotiations which any one independent state could
possibly enter upon with another independent state ; and
this was, in his opinion, a ground for refusing the produc-
tion of the papers. He begged to be understood as offer-
ing no opinion upon the other points which had been
touched upon; and he abstained from noticing those points,
for no other reason than because resisting the motion on
this one ground only, and deeming that one ground to be a
good and sufficient ground, be felt that it was wholly un-
necessary for him to detain their Lordships with any other
observations upon the subject.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that after the
speeches be had heard, and particularly after the unan-
swerable arguments of his Noble Friend (the Duke of
Wellington) near him, which arguments, he was con-
vinced, must have their effect upon the Government, he
was satisfied to leave the question to the wisdom of the
}louse. He hoped that the effect of this debate would be
to extricate this country and Europe at large from that
state into which they must fall if the Belgian army were
officered in the manner proposed. " I will not," conti-
nued the Noble Marquis, " trouble your Lordships with
any further observations on this subject ; but I trust that
your Lordships will bear with me for a few minutes while
I set myself right with the Noble and Learned Lord upon
the Woolsack. I listened with the greatest pleasure to the
Noble and Learned Lord while he recommended the ab-
sence of all personal remarks on the discussion of the Re-
form Bill ; and, fully concurring in all that then fell from
the Noble and Learned Lord, I fully resolved to act upon
the good advice which the Noble and Learned Lord gave.
I was not aware, that when I ventured to notice an inter-
ruption which I thought was disorderly, and which I could
not help feeling was unkind to me, that I should subject my-
self to such personal observations as the Noble and Learned
Lord directed towards me—especially as I had no intention
of giving him offence. I confess I have felt that I have
bk,331 hardly dealt with on more than one occasion by the
Noble and ;.earned Lord. I cannot forget the harsh ex-
pressions which he used towards me on a former night,
when lie spoke in such unmeasured terms of my humble
services, which, whatever the Noble and Learned Lord
may think of them, I hope the Ministry
who employed me
have a very different opinion of them.nad Recollecting those
expressions, and finding the Noble
nsLeasronendluLohrd re-
turning to-night to other expe
harsh, respecting a matter whichrliselhi
con himself
that has I
di
lad mTtfee otereel
to have been not in strict order, I .drritatl .on,
l
exceedingly irritated. If, however,
under that
I said any thing which was painful to the feelings of the
Noble and Learned Lord, I assure you that, upon co if
that

I was under great irritahility. I esteem the Noble and
Learned Lord's talents as highly as any ma❑ can, and I
have no wish to come into collision with the Noble and
Learned Lord, but, I do hope that fur the future the
Noble and Learned Lord will, in charity, abstain from
inflicting upon me that sort of personal arguments which
he has so often directed against me."—(The Noble Lord sat
down amidst much cheering from all parts of the House.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR said,—My Lords, in
consequence of the very courteous, manly, and candid ob-
servations of the Noble Marquis, I feel myself called upon
to meet the Noble Marquis in the same spirit of eoncilia •
tuna in which he has been pleased to revert to the subject
of our difference. In doing so, I beg to state to him most
unfeignedly, that it has been with the greatest pain that I
have felt myself compelled to make observations of that
character which he has described as personal attacks upon
him. Ido not, however, recollect,—and I shall willingly
submit to have my memory refreshed if it be treacherous
on this subject,—l do not recollect one single instance in
which I have gone out of my way to attack the Noble
Marquis, or any other Noble Lord, except when I
have been first assailed myself. I believe chat on every
occasion on which I have said any thing harsh re-
specting any of your Lordships, I have been provoked
to it by being first attacked myself. However, I per-
fectly agree with the Noble Marquis, that nothing
can be more fit and proper than that there should be
an end of such attacks for the future; and I hereby
offer to make a treaty of peace with the Noble Marquis,
without the intervention of Prince Talleyrand—(Cheers
and laughter)—and the terms of the treaty shall be, that
if he will let me alone, I will let him alone.—(Cheers and
laughter.) Or, if the Noble Marquis be disinclined to
enter, without some further consideration, into so solemn a
compact as a treaty of peace, let there be upon the satne
terms, a truce or armistice between us, with due notice,
hereafter to be agreed upon, of renewal of hostillities.—
(Cheers and laughter.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I readily agree
to the Noble arid Learned Lord's proposal, and accept the
treaty of peace upon the terms he has mentioned. Your
Lordships are the witnessing parties to our compact.—
(Cheers and laughter.)
The motion was then negatived without a division.
GAME BILL.

On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the Game
Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Adjourned at a Quarter to Nine o'clock till to-morrow.

EXPRESS FROM PARIS.

(From the Times.)

We have just received all the Paris Journals of
Wednesday, and those ante-dated Thursday, together
with a heap of private letters and journals from the
continent.

The Marquis of Palmella was said to have arrived
in Paris on Wednesday, and to have held an imme-
diate communication with Don Pedro. The loan for
the patriot cause of Portugal was said in Paris to
have been concluded. The Terceira Regency can
command 8,000 fighting men, three frigates, and
some smaller craft they are to sail under a blue and
white flag. Don Pedro offers to command in person.
The cholera morbus was making rapid progress in
Vienna. The Austi ion Observer of the 19th gives
the state of the malady up to the evening of the
18!h of Septemher in the following bulletin :-
" Have fallen sick, 518 ; cured, 19; dead, 227 ;
lying ill, 302."
The Berlin Slate Gazette of the 20th instant
contains the following intelligence, dated Frontiers
of Poland, Sept. 17 :-
" We learn that the Polish troops from Warsaw, which
have concentrated themselves in the vicinity of Modiin and
Zakroczyn, have assumed a hostile attitude. A new jour-
nal, under the title of National Gazette, ascribed to the
Members of the Diet who are with the army, has just
appeared. Its first number contains, under date of Za-
kroczyn, September 10, a new address to the Poles, in
which all such as are able to take up arms are urged to con-
tinue the struggle. Letters from Augustowo state, that a
small corps of Poles, under the command of Prince Mirski,
had appeared there. The Russian garrison withdrew on
the approach of this corps, which report had represented
as very numerous. The Russians drove back the insur-
gents, many of whom were taken and executed."
The accounts from Lausanne are to the 23d inst.
Every thing was unsettled in the Swiss cantons.
We have received the proclamation of the Neufchatel
Deputies, who are endeavouring to mediate in a
permanent sitting.
FRENCH FUNDS.-PARN, SEPT. %3.-Five per Cents., 88E 50e.
45c. loc. 35c. 40e. 35c. 45c. 40c. 35c. 88E 50c. 40c. 45c. 40c. 50c. 45c.
40c. 50c. ; Three per Cents., 59f. 70c. 60c. 70c. 65c 90c. 85c. 90c. ;
Bank Actions, 1,5401 I; Rente de Naples, 70E 70f. sc. ; Royal
Spanish Loan, 63!.1 ; Rente Perpetuelle d'Espagne, 46% 47 474
474 1.-Exchange on London, one month, paper, 25f.
sc. ; money, 25f. sc. ; three months, paper, 251; ; money, 24f. POe.
-fours Authent /gee.