The Sun.
London, England, 1838-01-26 00:00:00

possible for the Governer-General to succeed in his endeavours
to accomplish it. Now, a part of the mission which has been
entrusted to the Governor-General is to give him the power,
if he shall so think fit, of calling together a certain number of
persons who may be supposed to speak in some sense the feel-
ings of the people of these provinces. Whatever the feeling
of the House may be upon the point, I am sure it is one that
cannot be a matter of indifference to my Right Hon. Friend ;
because, in the latter part of his speech, speaking of a mea-
sure in which he himself took great interest—in which his
object was a right object, and upon which he pressed Parlia-
ment with many view sof policy which were right views—my
Right Hon. Friend, in speaking of that measure, admits that
it contained this great and serious error—namely, that it esta-
,blished upon certain lands the law of primogeniture ; the law
of primogeniture being contrary to the habits and feelings of
the people. I think, too, my Right Hon. Friend will not
deny that, with respect to that measure, there are other points
that require consideration. Then lam sure my Right. Hon.
Friend will be the last man to say that it is not of the utmost
importance that the Governor. General should be enabled not
only to express his own sentiments—not only to give his
own views, but should also be enabled, by some authority
vested in him for that purpose, to collect, if he should so
think tit, in some authorised and formal manner, the opinions
and feelings of those who are deeply connected with these
provinces.—( Hear, hear.) I admit to my Right Hon. Friend,
who, I think, does not differ in fact from our policy, that it
may be entirely inexpedient to call together such a body as is
named in the instructions of the Gov ernor- General. It will
be for the Governor to exercise his discretion upon that point.
I say at the same time that to authorise the Governor-Gene

ral to collect the opinions of the people of the province is a
very considerable part and a very striking part of the general
policy which we propose to pursue. It was due to Parlia-
ment, it was necessary to the Government, and necessary to the
Governor-General, whoever he might be, that that part of our
policy should not be concealed or Rit hkeld.—( Hear, hear.)
It was necessary that every Member of Parliament should have
the opportunity afforded to him of saying, if he so thought
fit, " Upon this point of your plan I entirely agree with you
or entirely differ from you." lam quite ready to admit, that
if the Right Honourable Gentleman ( Sir R. Peel) opposite had
grounded his opposition to the preamble simply, upon the
ground of its not being in the usual form—if he had said. "You
have an irregular mixture here of prerogative and legisla-
tion," I should have been ready, for the sake of unanimity
upon the Bill, to have said that I would not stand by the
words of the preamble. But the Right Hon. Baronet, it is
obvious—having certainly a perfect right so to do—has placed
us in this difficulty. He makes the objection with respect to
the unusual form of the proceeding, and at the same time
states that he thinks the course in itself unwise, and ought to
be pursued. Now, if we were te consent to withdraw these
words from the preamble—one of two inferences, or indeed
both inferences, might be drawn ; it might be said Parlia-
ment has not approved of this mode of legislation; or, on the
other hand, it might be said, " Parliament has cendemned
this policy. Parliament is not ready to consent that the Go-
vernor-General should go out to Canada with these powers."
If the Right Hon. Baronet were disposed to bring the general
question of the policy proposed to be pursued to an issue upon
any other ground, I should have no difficulty with respect to
the preamble. But as this is the only point of view in which
the Right Hon. Baronet has brought it forward, I own I
feel the greatest difficulty in complying with my Right Hon.
Friend's advice. I feel this, Sir, I feel that these measures
,cannot be carried to a perfect and satisfactory isonclusien un-
less ( I am not now going to enter into any discussion of the
merits of Lord Durham)—but I feel that these measures
cannot be carried to a perfect and satisfactory conclusion
unless some person of eminence shall go out from this coun-
try in the full confidence of the Government which then exists
at home ; and unless, likewise, the Government at home can
undertake the measures it proposes with regard to Canada
with the full confidence and support of Parliament.—( Hear,
hear.) For my part, feeling deeply the responsibility which
we have already had with respect to Canada, having always
felt that it was one of the most painful as well as one of
the most difficult subjects which we could undertake, I am
not prepared to carry into effect the Bill with regard to Ca
nada, if it be in :the power of any body of me.r.bera in this
House or in the power of the public in general to say that the
policy which the Government has proposed with respect to
Canada is disapproved of by a majority of the House of Corn-
mone. lam not prepared to say that we can undertake to
carry the Bill into effect if hereafter it may be said that the
Governor-general, in acting upon his instructions, has acted
contrary to the wishes, contrary to the will of the House of
the House of Commons. This is a point which I wish to be
explicit upon. I will not enter now—l need not enter now—
into the manner in which the Bill is to be carried out ; but this I
do say, that we must stand clear upon the point of having with
us the consent and approbation of Parliament. If this Bill is
to be altered in many of its provisions, or if it is to be a differ-
ent Bill, let those who have made it different, let those who
approve of a totally different policy, be the persons responsi-
ble for the execution of the Bill.—( Hear, hear.) It would be
far better for the country, far better for the Canadians, and far
better for the general interest of the empire, that the matter
should at least be compact—that those who advise the Crown,
and those who have the confidence of the House of Commons,
should at least be the same persons; and that these should be
no discrepancy between the two.—( Hear, hear.) I beg my
Right Hon Friend and this House to consider well this point,
on which, sooner or later, this Holise must come to a decision.
I do not think I am asking too much cf Hon. Gentlemen, when,
admitting that the policy which is proposed is one of great
severity, and admitting also that I am placing in the hands of
one individual, assisted, if he pleases, by a select Council, and
maintaining his authority
.instead of the local Legislature which
has been constituted by the Parliament, I ask them to be
ready to approve the course which we have pursued, and the
policy which we have adopted to redress all grievances, and
to prevent future ills.---(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, it is my full intention steadily to ad-
here to the motion of which I have given notice—(Cheers)—
as I feel perfectly satisfied that it is the most just and rational
course which I could adopt. If any doubt had previously
existed in my mind as to the fairness and propriety of that
course--but no such doubt did exist—it would have been re-
moved by the declaration of the Right Honourable Gentleman
who preceded the Noble Lord. That Right Hon. Gentle-
, man's local and personal knowledge of the Canadas is such
as to entitle his opinion to great consideration upon this
question, and his speech of to-night confirms me in the im-
pression which I had previously entertained as to his compe-
tency to pronounce upon this subject.—( Hear.) That Right
Hon. Gentleman's personal experience bears weighty testi-
mony both to the reasonableness and justness of the proposition
which I have signified my intention to make, and confirms me
—not that I ever hesitated or wavered—in my resolution of
adhering to that intention. In doing what I propose to
do, I shall not, on the one hand, wander from the course which
the great emergency justifies, in supporting the power and
dignity of the Crown, and at the same time redressing all
real grievances which shall be pointed out to me ; nor shall I,
on the other hand, be led away by the vague declamation of
the Noble Lord, and, to support a seeming unanimity, be in-
duced to consent to that which my judgment will not permit
me to sanction. On the first night of the Session I and the
friends who generally act with me expressed our readi-
ness cordially to support the Address which pledged the
House to the Crown to do all in its power for the suppression
of the insurrection which hed broken out in the colonies.

--(Hear, hear.) Together with this, another propos'tion was i 1
made, namely, to bring in a Bill for vesting the whole Go- I
vernment of the colony in the hand of a Governor possessed
of great and arbitrary authority. The name cf the person
whom it was proposed to select for this great and responsible
trust was intimated. lat *nee, and unhesitatingly, declared
my intention to pay all possible respect to the person chosen
by Government, and expressed myself ready, forgetting all
political and party differences, to give to Lord Durham, or
any other person who might be selected for the arduous task,
any assistance in my power, to render his efforts as effective as
if he were in political alliance with me.—( Loud cheers.) I
am ready, though with the greatest reluctance, to assent to the
suspension of the Constitution of Canada, if no safer remedy
can be found ; but I cannot consent to go any further than the
exigency of circumstances absolutely requires.—(Cheers.)
Were it my intention to offer a factions opposition to her
Majesty's Government nothing would be easier than to find an
excuse for so doing. Were such my desire nothing could be
more easy than for me to join with Hon. Gentlemen opposite
in asking the House to give another trial to the Canadian
House of Assembly.—( Hear.) Did Idoso ? No ; believing
that Ministers were acting rightly, and not choosing to run
any further risk, I myself—and I called upon those who
do me the honour to act with me to do likewise—gave
Ministers my cordial support.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Some of those around me hesitated at first to give
their concurrence to the measure, as they conceived there were
great objections to the Bill, but they finally assented. That,
Sir, is the course which I have pursued ; but, having gone thus
far, I cannot consent to proceed any further. I claim for my-
self—l care not what may be the consequence--but I claim for
myself a full right thoroughly and closely to examine the Bill
in all its provisions and its details, and, as I see fit, to propose
snch alterations and amendments as will in my judgment tend
to render the measures more conformable with justice and bet-
ter adapted to compass the end which it proposes to have in
view- —( Cheers. ) If it appears to me that the Bill should
propose to vest in the Governor-General more extended power
or a greater discretion than the necessity of the case may re-
quire, I hold myself free to propose that that power be cure
tailed.—( Hear, hear.) If, again, in passing an Act so ex-
tremely rigorous as that proposed I find in any of the clauses
an unnecessary violation of the principles of the Consti-
tution, I shall withhold my consent from such a clause ;
and not only this, but I shall do all that in me lies to endea-
vour to induce the House to withhold its sanction.—
(Cheers.) I shall willingly consent to every neces:ary mea-
sure for enabling the Crown to put down insurrection and
outrage; I shall also agree to make ample provision for carry-
ing on the Government of the country when the Constitution
is suspended ; but I will not enter into any compromise which
would have the effect of preventing me from closely and
carefully examining the Bill through all its details, and
doing every thing in my power to render it as effective
as possible.—( Cheers.) If any amendments are to be
made to the measure let them be suggested, let them be dis-
cussed, let them be disposed of ;but let it not ha given to the
public to understand that a general assent was given to the
Bill by any compromise. I cannot agree to what in my opi..
nion is unwise, unjustifiable, and impolitic, merely for the
purpose of having it understood that we are all united.—
(Cheers ) I do not, as seems to be supposed, object to the
preamble on a mere formality. I hold it highly unwise to
mix in the preamble of this the recognition of an Act of the
Royal prerogative. If the Royal prerogative is to be called
into operation, why let the Crown exercise it, and then appeal
to Parliament for its justification.—( Cheers. ) If the law
apply for
prove defective,
n
if you require more power, come down to
Parliament
it, and then, according as Parlia-
e

ment accedes or refuses, either retain or relinquish the Go-
vernment.—(Loud cheers.) Do one or the other—act either
by the prerogative or by Act of Parliament, but do not by
the confusion of the two powers—the legislative and the pre-
rogative—establish a most dangerous precedent.—( Cheers.)
What would be the consequence of stablishing such a prece-
dent? Ministers might hereafter relieve the Crown from the
responsibility which it ought to take, and throw the responsibi-
lity as well as the power upon the second branch of the Legis-
lature.—( Hear, hear.) Ido not in the notice which I have
given propose the omission of any clauses, but the substitu-
tion of others implying not that Canada is to be governed by
a despotism by the intervention of constitutional—by which I
mean free—operations. I have all along expressed great
doubts as to the validity of this Bill, and in its present state I
refused it my sanction. It is not my intention to propose any
restriction of the Royal prerogative ; but I do not think we
are called upon in the present state of thiags—in our present
ignorance of the feelings, the wishes, and the wants of the Ca-
nadian people—l do not think we are called upon to sanction
any particular instructions to tke Chief Governor. 'Why should
I be called upon to de any such thing ? Why, it is neither more
nor less than making me a responsible Minister of the Crown,
and a party to the proceedings of G overnment. —( Hear, hear. )
Do I doubt the right of Ministers to collect all the informa-
tion they can upon the subject? Do I doubt that it is proper
to ascertain the sentiments, the feelings, and the opinions of
the people of both the Canadas ? No; but I am not prepared
to take upon myself to prescribe the mode in which that
information is to be arrived at ?—( Cheers. ) I am not pre-
pared in the present dearth of information to say that a cer-
tain Assembly should be called together now or in the course
of another year, labouring, perhaps, under strong animosities
or exasperated feelings, for the purpose of giving suggestions
as to what ought to be done.—( Hear, hear, hear.) lam not
prepared to say whether bringing the two Canadas perhaps
into collision, at least into contact, is wise or otherwise._
(Cheers.) I am not prepared to say thot, having suspended
the entire Constitution of Lower Canada—and in this senti-
ment several Gentlemen opposite who are usually opposed to
me in political opinions concur—l am not prepared to
say that, under these circumstances, ten men chosen by the
electors, and five Members of the Legislative Council,
opposed as they naturally will be, can fully, freely,
and fairly discuss the circumstances of the province.
Sir, I know of no representation except that which is
sanctioned by law. The Legislative Assembly is still in exis-
tence—it consists of eighty persons, the true representatives of
the colony—and is it possible that their place can be supplied
by ten men, selected from five districts, of which we know
little, and by a constituency of which we are quite ignorant ?
—( Hear, hear.) I cannot, under such circumst laces, be ever
brought to affirm—in the words of the preamble—that men so
elected are the full, fair, and free representatives of the Ca-

nadian people.— ( Cheers. ) Sir, I will net believe that the
British House of Commons—the guardians of the represen-
tative principle—call consent to such a substitute for the repre-
sentative system already existing by the Canadian Constitution.
I will not believe that we can be induced to decide that ten

_ --.
men, however fairly selected, can be representatives of the
people.—( Hear, hear,) These, Sir, are the grounds on which
I object to the principleq laid down in the preamble. Before
Lord Durham reaches Canada the present aspect of affairs
may be wholly altered. But I ask you if, with martial law
proclaimed—with rebellion not quite suppressed—if it be
possible to facilitate a settlement, by resorting to the advice of
twenty-six men, partly chosen by the Crown, and with ten
from each province, holding opinions directly opposed to
those which are entertained by the others ? What concord can
exist between the ten delegates from Upper Canada, and the
ten deputies from the Lower Province?—( Hear.) And if
either party form a majority, with the assistance of the repre-
sentative of the Crown, what security have we that the peo-
ple at large are to be content ?—( Hear.) Her Majesty's
Ministers may expect that good shall arise from that arrange-
ment, but I confess that lam of a different opinion. Why'
Sir, the course recommended bythe Hon. Gentlemen opposite
places no restraint on the Ministers of the Crown, and it is mon-

strous to ask the Members of this House who have no connec-
tion with the Government, to incur such a responsibility. Sup-
pose that the people of Lower Canada refuse to send dele-
gates to this General Assembly ; suppose that Upper Canada
which has its Legislative Assembly perfectly well constituted,
should mime to send Deputies, and declare that it will not
part with the authority which it already possesses by Act of
Parliament—in what position will this House be ? I ask you
do you wish to force the men of Upper Canada to give YOU
such an answer ? Her Majesty's Ministers may be desirous
to throw a grave responsibility on Parliament, but I, for one,
declare that I will not accept it. I must, however, be under-
stood that, in offering those opinions, I do not mean to give
an opposition to the mission of Lord Durham. Ido not seek
to deprive him of any power that may be necessary for that
mission, but I conceive that the amendments of which I have
given notice are conformable to reason and justice. They will
prevent the present measure from being established as a pre-
cedent, and save the country from the operation of an unneces-
sary exercise of power. Let the House deal with these
amendments as it pleases. I care not for the result ; but I
am certain that this House will adopt my views if it finds,
on reflection, that they are sanctioned by reason and by jus-
tice.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I ',hope, Sir, that the Noble Lord
is not indifferent to what I say, and I trust that he and
his colleagues will well consider what course they should
pursue.—( Cheers.)
Mr. ELLICE explained. The only question was, whether
the Government were to be the responsible parties to the in-
quiry which all agreed to be necessary, or whether the House
would direct the Government as to the plan to he pursued in
the inquiry. He was still very anxious for unanimity on this
point, and trusted that, upon a little more consideration, his
Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) would so far consent to alter
the preamble as to allow the Honourable Gentlemen opposite
to agree to it.
Lord SANDON concurred in all that had fallen from his
Right Hon. Friend ( Sir Robert Peel). In the present state
of the country, just recovering from a state of rebellion, it
would, in his opinion, be dangerous to assemble the people-
in such numbers as would be requisite for the purposes of
the Bill.

Mr. G. F. YOUNG had heard with much pleasure the
able arguments put forth by the Right Honourable Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Ellice,) in every one of which he cordially con-
curred, and he trusted that the Noble Lord ( Lord J. Russell)
would withdraw the objectionable portion of the preamble, and
that the House would come to an unanimous vote upon the
question. As to the arguments for the emancipation of the
Colony, he thought them totally untenable, and, whatever sneer
it might call up, he would steadily adhere to the words of Lord
Chatham, and trust that he would never see the dismember-
ment of our empire.
Mr. BRINES said, that notwithstanding the indisposition
he always felt to occupy the time of the House, he could not
satisfy himself, on a subject like this, involving the interests
of millions at home and in our colonies, by giving a silent
vote. He felt it due to the Government to say that they
had done themselves honour by declaring that they would go-
vern Canada on no other principles than those of constitutional
liberty. An important crisis had now arisen in the colonial
history of this country. If that crisis were used wisely, the me-
lancholy events which had recently occurred in Canada might
be retrieved, while if wisdom did not direct the councils and
the legislation of this country, we might have again to pass
through the scenes which took place between the years 1774
and 1782 in North America and in England during the struggle
for American independence. It appeared from the preamble of
the Bill introduced into this House by his Noble Friend the Se-
retary for the Home Department, that the House was to be called
on to declare that it was expedient that the province of Lower
Canada should be permanently governed under the dominion of
Great Britain. To that proposition he was not prepared to give
his assent ; and in order to arrive at a just conclusion on this
point, it was proper to inquire what was the cost of govern-
ing Canada as a dependency of this country, and what the
gain we derived from its possession ? As to the cost, it ap-
peared from the financial statements laid before this House
that it amounted to the sum of from five to six hundred thou-
sand a year.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The Paymaster of his
Majesty's forces said to 600,0001. It also appeared from a
sprech made by his Right Honourable Friend the President
of the Board of Trade, that the expenso incurred by this
country from receiving the inferior timber of Canada, over
and above the cost that would attend the same supply of
sound timber from the Baltic, amounted to 1,400,0001. a year,
making a clear annual cost to Great Britain and Ireland of
2,000,000/. a year ; which sum would be saved if Canada was
an independent State.—( Hear, hear.) The question then
arose, what valuable consideration did we receive in exchange
for this enormous annual cost? His Noble Friend the Seocte-r
tary of State for the Home Department the
night had said that the retention of our cole'
was the cause of the strength of our commercialthe
ma-
rine. But he (Mr. Baines) had always understood that
from
the of our commercial marine was rather derived
tfea
manufacturers, and the enterprise of our seamen—(the capital of our merchants, the skill and industry of.. ourr
hear)—and in proof of this,' he might say that our
when
com-
mercial marine trading to the United States at present,or
~ve
that country was an independent republic,
times as large as when that country was a dependencyhatthe
Great Britain.—( Hear, hear.) But in order to show t
our
strength of our commercial marine did not depend upor_a_.
Canadian possessions, he would quote the words of the
Iff,v,'grLf•
Honourable the Paymaster of her Majesty's Forces, whose
authority stood deservedly high and would have due weight
en the Treasury Bench. That Right Honourable Gentleman
was fourh
of
said—.. With respect to Canada (including our other posses-
sions on the Continent of North America) no case can be
male out to show that we should not have every commercial
advantage we are supposed now to have if it were made a"
independent state. Neither our manufactures, foreign com-
merce, nor shipping would be injured by such a measure.
On the other hand, what has the nation lost by Canada.
Fifty or sixty millions have already been expended, the an-
nual charge on the British Treasury is full 600,000/. a year,
and we learn from the second report of the Committee of
Finance, that a plan of fortifying Canada has been for two
or three years in progress which is to cost 3,700,0001." From
this statement it appeared, and no higher authority could
'be found, that Great Britain would enjoy all the advantages
that she at present possessed if Canada was an independent
State, both as regarded her merchandise, her trade, and her
shipping ; and that having already spent fifty millions of money
in raising that country to strength and importance,
she would,
if the Canadians were left to govern themselves, be saved a
future expense of 2,006,000/. a year. There was, however,
one advantage derived from the possession of Canada which
had not been stated, and that was a great extent of official
patronage.—( Hear, hear.) If Canada was exalted to the
rank of a free State, they should have much fewer governor-
ships and secretaryships to bestow than at present, and much
fewer appointments in the army, the navy, and the civil de-
partments. But no such consideration would influence htr
Majesty's present Government, and the people of Great Bri-
tain had too little regard to official patronage to purchase it at