The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-29 00:00:00

ING, SEPTEMBER 29, Ig3l.

ships. This Bill, however, he was aware, would not be
altogether efficient ; but he thought it better at first only
to go this length, and to he rather too limited than t(A) ex-
tensive and rash in its amendments. He therefore thought
it safest not to carry the reform further than was here
done for the present. He proposed that the Masters should
sit during the day, and in the evenings to prepare the pre-
liminary portions of the proceedings and the reports, and
that then they should sit in public as Courts, threo-in each,
to dispose of objections to the reports. A report, which
was now finally settled and determined upon in the office
of some of the Masters, and by- him presented to the
Keeper of the Great Seal, the Vice-Chancellor, or Master
of the Rolls, would thus be openly reviewed by the three
Masters sitting as a Court, who would hear and dispose
objections--either repelling them or yielding to them and
amending the report. Then the parties would have the
opportunity of taking exceptions to the report before the
Lord-Chancellor, Vice-Chancellor, or Master of the Rolls,
in the same manner as they had now had the oppor-
tunity to except to the report when settled by "one Master
alone in his office, and presented to the higher tribunal
without review. From this new regulation he anticipated
the most beneficial results, for he was persuaded that in
nine cases out of ten—he might say in ninety-nine cases
out of one hundred—the exceptions which now came
before the higher tribunal would be disposed of on objec-
tions taken, discussed, and disposed of in the Master's
Court. The next change had for its object particularly to
introduce greater certainty into the evidence, by having
the examinations taken viva voce instead of having them
taken by interrogatories, as was the present practice. A
set of interrogatories was drawn up, and a string of ques-
tions put, each without any reference to the answer to the
previous question, as to which the parties were entirely in
the dark ; and cross-interrogatories were also after drawn
up for a party who could not possibly know any of the an-
swers to the examination in chief. He wished he could
have introduced at once the mode of taking the evidence
openly in the presence of the Court which was to decide
on the cause. But that was a stride which he was not pre-
pared to take in the first instance, but what he proposed
to do was at least a great step towards a more rational and
intelligible mode of Vliog the evidence. It was, however,
liable to the objection that one Judge or officer examined
the witnesses, while another Judge would hear and decide
the cause. But if this plan should be found to succeed and
to work well, as he had no doubt but it would, then they
might proceed to a further improvement, and give the Court
of Chancery power to try issues of fact in the same manner
as other tribunals, so that the evidence would be taken in
the presence of the same Judge who was to determine the
cause. There were other provisions in the Bill which he
would not detail at present. What he would now propose
was, that the Bill should be read a first time and printed,
and that then the furtlo r consideration should be post-
poned. It was not likely that they would have a sufficient
opportunity to consider the matter deliberately and fully
in the present Session, and it was safest not to proceed
with these amendments too rashly. The Bill, when
printed, might remain over for consideration during the
vacation, if vacation there should be, of which his hopes
became less and less sanguine every day. He had made
some alteration in the mode of paying the Masters, and
11 proposed that the bulk of the payment should be by fixed
salaries, instead of fees—leaving some part of the emolu-
ments still to consist of fees, in order to quicken the dili-
gence of the Masters. According to the present regula-
tion, where 101. in the shape of fees were levied on suitors
in reference to business in the Master's Office, only 21. or
3/. went to the Master, and thus the suitor was heavily
taxed to no good purpose whatever. The fixed salaries
would remedy these evils by in a great measure destroying
the pretence for these exactions. This was a general view '
of the objects and provisions of this Bill, the objections to
which might be considered at leisure.
The Bill was read a first time and ordered to be printed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then proceeded with the hear-
ing of appeals.—Adjourned.

HO USE OF C 03IMONS, SEPTEMBER 28.
Mr. WILKS preserved a petition from George Lyster,
Esq., complaining of a considerable portion of the Ma-
gistrates of the counties of Northampton,. Lincoln, and
Rutland being chiefly composed of clergymen, there being
fourteen in Northampton, eight in Lincoln, and three in
Rutland.
Mr. WILKS moved for a general return of the Magis-
trates of England and Wales, distinguishing those that
were clergymen and laymen, &c.
Mr. FOLEY presented a petition from some place in
Worcester relative to the Beer Bill.
Sir R. AIUSGRAVE presented a petition from Dun-
garvon, complaining of the arrangements made by the
Commissioners for Inland Navigation.
Sir G. MURRAY presented a petition from the coun-
ties of Ross and Sutherland, relative to the Scotch Re-
form Bill.
Mr. JOHN BROWN presented two petitions from
places in the county of MAyo, praying for two additional
Members for that county.—The petitions were ordered to
he printed.
Mr. PROTHEROE presented several petitions from the
parishes of Bristol, in favour of the Select Vestry Bill.
The flow. MEMBER also presetAed a petition from the
cordwainers of B. isol, praying for the remission of all
taxes on the diffusion of knowledge.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from the Sheriff,
Magistrates, and others, of Kilkenny, praying for such
an
public money as would complete the pub-
lic
applicationl of
nunder the Irish Parliament.
wnrk
Mr. WRIGHTSON presented a petition from John
London, shipmaster, of Ipswich, complaining of having
been kept sixty days in quarantine.
Mr. a ROSS presented a petition from the town of
Forfar, praying to be exempt from disfranchisement.
Mr. ASHFORD SANDFORD presented a petition
from the Clergymen of Somerset, against the Beer Bill.
The How. MEMBER also presented a petition from the
hundred of Wells, Somersetshire, for an alteration in the
tithe system.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN presented a petition from
a parish of the county of Meath, praying for the ballot..—.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
The How. MEMBER. also presented two petitions from
thgeainsa;teheplcaetle; one against the yeomanry, and the other
for building churches. The Hon. Member
a
t
complained of the conduct of the yenta mry and police, and
he manner in which they exercised their authority, with-
out any responsibility. --Petitions were ordered to be
printed.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought
up and agreed to.
Mr. JAMES presented a petition from the Finsbury
Division of the National Union, praying that the punish-
ment of Rot.ert Taylor might be remitted, and that no
more prosecutions might be instituted for religious opinions.
He ‘visheAd
LtTo
iaisok hpe Noble
stated, i
Lordn answer,
if ther
thatwere
haenwy
a s inten-
tion
of mitigating this unfortunate man's sentence.
Lord
aware of any intention of his Majesty's Government to
mitigate the sentence.

111-r, JAMES hoped that it might be taken into consi•
deration._

Lord ALTHORP was not aware of any circumstances
of the case whicl► should induce the Government to take
the subject into its particular consideration.
31r. JAMES also presented a petition from the work-
ing classes of Bethnal-green, praying for the total repeal
of the Game Laws.

On the motion of Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL, the Bill
for altering the Bankrupt Laws was read a first time.
The Hon. and Learned AlE3lllzit moved that it be read
a „eon(' time on Friday next.
Sir C. WETHERELL moveri, as an amendment, that
it be read a second time on Tuesday next.
The House then divided—
For the amendment
Against it 93
Majority --37
The original motion-was then carried.

SUPPLY.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. RICE proposed a vote of 163,6791. 93. 2d., on
account of alterations and repairs, and furniture bill* for
Windsor Castle.

Mr. JAMES opposed the vote, and said, he would take
the sense of the House upon the question. He thought
the expence was unnecessary ; and took occasion to remark,
that George IV. was the most extravagant and the wcrst
'Monarch that ever sat upon the throne
of England.—(oh
Colonel SIBTHORPE protested against the conduct of
the Hon. Member in speaking thus disrespectfully of the
dead ; and said he hoped the sense of the House would be
taken upon the question.
Mr, YROTHEROE supported the glut. The greater

part of the debt had been contracted by the late Admini-
stration, and the engagements contracted with tradesmen
should, in justice, he fulfilled.
Mr. JAMES explained.
Colonel TRENCH had no objection to make to the
proposed grant ; the first part of which was for the na-
tional object of maintaining the noble Palace of Windsor;
the other, for the payment of arrears due for Buckingham
Palace. He could not, however, agree to any further
grant for the latter object. The basement floor of the
building was under water, and the ground floor exceedingly
damp. It would be attended with a great expense to com-
plete it, and to remove the various nuisances by which it
was surrounded, and which would render it au unfit re-
sidence for a British Sovereign. The Gallant Colonel
proceeded to describe the plan which he has already
brought before the public, for transferring the present
building into a King's College, &c. and for constructing
another of twice the magnitude for a Palace, without any
additional expense ; and stated the course which he had
adopted with reference to laying his plan before the Com-
mittee on the subject.
Mr. J. WOOD observed that the proposed grant was
not prospective but retrospective. He admired economy
as much as the Gallant Member for Lincoln, but it was
fitting to put the saddle on the right horse ; and the ex-
pence in question had been incurred by the late Adminis-
tration. The Committee upon Buckingham House had
taken the proposed grant into consideration, and their con-
clusion was, that if it were not agreed to the trades-nen
and workmen must starve. He certainly thought that
there had been a most scandalous and imprudent waste of
money on this object; and he trusted that that would go
no further; but the grant proposed was to make good a
contract. Adverting to the labours of the Committee on
the expences of Windsor Castle, he observed, that in the
article of household furniture alone they had struck out
25,0001. The present, however, was not the time for dis-
cussing the general question.

Mr. PROTHERO. E had been assured by an eminent
architect that Buckingham Palace was in a sound state.
Colonel TRENCH repeated that the lower part was in
a bad state. To put it in a condition for the reception of
the King and Queen and their Court, would cost 500,000/.
Mr. ROBINSON wished to ask whether the proposed
vote comprehended all the arrears, as in former cases an
erroneous impression had been made on that point ? It
was certainly just that those arrears should be paid ; but
were there not persons who were deriving large fortunes
from the works by.charging a percentage on them, whether
the business was one of construction or demolition ? If
so, he hoped such a practice would be abolished. He had
no objection to vote the proposed grant, as he was aware
that it was for expences which had been actually incurred ;
but he begged to ask if it would pay all the arrears, and,
if not, wh it further sum would be required for that pur-
pose ? After so much money hail been laid out upon
Buckingham House, be thought it would be extreme folly
not to render it a fit Palace fur the King and the Court.
Lord ALTHORP said, as we understood the Noble
Lord, that the vote would cover all the expences hitherto
incurrei!. It was for the purpose of paying bills which
hail for some time been due to tradesmen, who were
suffering the greatest distress from the delay, and who hail
made the strongest representations to him in his official
capacity on the subject. There was also a gentleman of
great reputation and fame as an artist, who was subject to
the most serious inconvenience on the same account. With
respect to the expence of completing Buckingham Palace,
an estimate had been made by an architect, on whom, if
he were as correct in that as be had been en smaller oc-
casions, he (Lord Althorp) would thoroughly depend ;
and that estimate was, that it would cost 70,000/. As to
the expense of finishing Windsor Castle, the amount al-
ready voted for the building was 591,0001., to which a
sum of 170,000/. would be added if the Committee sanc-
tioned the proposed vote. For furniture, 267,0001. and
5,000/., the later sum' reduced by the deduction of fees
to 3,1701., had been voted; and there was a further sett-
mate of 10,000/. not voted, for which he was responsible.
The whole sum for building, furniture, and land, was
1,084,470/., of which 894,000/. bad been already voted,
leaving 190,000/. to be provided for. The sum this year
for building was 63,6701., to which was to be added
100,000/. of arrears of former years.
Mr. HUME complained of being completely taken by
surprise by the proposed vote. The estimate had been laid
on the tahle at so late a period as two o'clock that morn-'
ing, and he had no idea it would so soon be proposed to
vote it. He should otherwise have been prepared upon
the subject ; but he now craved time fir that purpose.
It was impossible that he could agree to vote away so large
a sum of the public money at so short a notice. He had
never, since he had had a seat in the House, known such
a proceeding. When first the sum of 300,000/. was pro-
posed for Windsor Castle, and 200,0001. for Buckingham
House, he had objected to these vetee, unless pledges were
given that no more would be required. Those pledges had
l;een given ; Lut, nevertheless, the expense lisd been run
up to the emir/iv:us amount at which it had arrived, In
his opinion, his ?Majesty's late Ministers ought to be brought
to account, and impeached for their conduct on this sub-
ject. He entreated the N,,ble Lord in the meanwhile to
give time for the consideration of the proposed vote. The
answer would be, that the tradesmen to whom the money
was due, were in great distress. But whose fault was
that ? The late Ministers. He wished they could be made
to pay the amount. What steward of any private catate
would be allowed with impunity to conduct himself in a
similar manner? Ile proposed, instead of voting any more
money for this purposi, to inquire if the sum necessary
could not be raised from the Crown lands. If the Com-
mittee agreed that a Bill should be brought in, autLcrlsing
the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to sell Crown
lands for the purpose of making good' the grant, be would
not object to it. But he ceuld not agree to the grant until
at least the Committee made a report on the subject. He
entreated the Noble Lord to allow time for the oansidera-
tion of time subject ; and with that view he would move that
the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. STRICKLAND said, that he trusted this snar-
mous expenditure, which had already exceeded !self a mil-
lion, would soon be put an end to. At the ;limo time he
would not oppose the proposed grant, especially as it was
stated that it was for the payment of arrears. The people
of this country would never grudge a proper Palace for
their Sovereign. It gave him no pleasure to look at the
building erected under the name of htteldaghain Palace ;
but there it stood, and let it he Laished. At the same
titre he thought that there was much in the proposition
of the Hon, Member for Middlesex ; and that the ;eyel
property ought to be looked to for the comFlatiou of the
Royal Palaces.

Mr. MABERLY said, that if the present question were
now agitating for the first time, it ought to undergo a
thorough investigation. But the vote was for money
already expended. He allowed that the late Government
had been guilty of great extravagance on the subject ; but
the parties who had been employed by them ought not to
suffer, and the House ought to pay the debt. As to whe-
ther the money should ba paid from the Consolidated
Fund, or by the sale of woods and forests, was a matter of
little consequence. The revenue of the Woods and Fo-
rests was public revenue ; and the sale of any part of them
would be the loss :of so much income. An inquiry into
the manner in which the Woods and Forests were admi-
nistered, was a very different thing; and such an inquiry
he thought highly expedient.
Mr. HUME explained. He repeated that not a far..
thing should be granted out of the taxes, until it was
found that the produce of the Crown Lands would not pay
tse deficiency.
Mr. BRISCOE concurred in the propriety of postpon-
ing the vote until the Committee made their report.
Mr. WILKS also agreed with the Member for Mid-
dlesex that the House should not be precipitate in their
vote, but wait until they had either examined the partial
report now laid on the table, or until the Committee had
made that final report which they promised.
Mr. RICE said that the vile was in compliance with
'the earliest recommendation of the Committee appointed to
inquire iuto the subject by the present Government, and
the money was to be applied to the payment of debts
already contracted, As an instance of the injurious way
in which the deity in the payment of those debts bad
ythe Buckinghamw hole of
his Palace.
capital
This
in a operated on respectable tradesmen, be might instance the
case of a person who had applied the whole of his capital
in the construction of a new apparatus for heating the
rooms of
man having
which h
thusad
e
really proved serviceable in the preservation of the public
property, 'actually made his appearance at the Treasury
with the whole of his remaining property contained in
pawnbroker& duplicates.—(Hear, hear.) This man had
received PAC hundred pound's from the Royal bowers but 1

' his demand was yet unpaid. He believed that mat yof
the tradesmen who supplied the materials for the• Palace
were almost equally distressed by the delays which had
.recurred in the payments ; and whatever degree of rigid
economy the House might enforce afterwards, he thought
it would be but decent as well as just that they now con-
sented to pay these arrears.
Mr. C. PELHAM supported the proposal of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex. In his opinion, too much had
been spent, and the Government were bound to show
good reasons for demanding so large a grant.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said there was a great difference
fietween a debt already contracted and a proposition for
fresh exp-ndituse. He ,itEati.i give his vote for rite pay-
ment of these tradesmen, bee awe he believed their fla-
tlands to he just, ansl beestise be felt also that the Go-
vernment could and should be legally compelled t) p them.
After a few won's from Mr. HUNT in opposition to the
grant,
Mr. J. MARTIN said that he would not only vote for
the suns now required, but for any further sum which
!night be neee.sary to complete the Pa!ace, forhe thought
that it would be a profligate waste of the public money to
leave the building uncompleted after so much money had
thready been expended upon it. He would tike this op-
portunity of calling the attention of Ministers to another
subject of some importance. He understood that a piece
of ground contiguous to Somerset house was set apart as
a site for the construction of the King's College, on the
express understanding that the building should be made
to form the eastern wing of Somerset-house, which had
never yet been completed. The College was now finished,
but instead of being built in uniformity with the edifire
which it was intended to complete, it bote not the slightest
resemblance to it. He wished to know how this happened.
Some explan ttion was due on the subject.
Mr. F. BARING said that he could sitisfy the Hon.
Member upon the subject to which he had alluded. Toe
Trustees of the College had entered into an agreement
with Government that the building should be erected in
such a manner as to form the eastern wing of Somerset.
house, and thus complete that edifice. Government had
obtained security for the fulfilment of the contract. The
wing was to be completed in five years. Government had •
employed a surveyor to ascertain whether it was practi-
cable to complete the building according to the proposed
plan, and he had reported in the affirmative.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said that he had seen the College
from the river, and was of opinion that it was built in such
a manner as to render it utterly impossible to complete the
eastern wing, unless part of the College should he pulled
down.

Mr. G. GOULBURN assured the Hon. Member for
Kirkcudbright that ample space was left to allow of the
eastern wing being completed in conformity with the rest
of the building.
Mr. JAMES again condemned the grant as extrava-
gant, and declarers his intention to vote agAinst it.
Colonel SIRTI-lORPE said that he would vote for the
amendment.

After a few words from Mr. E. ELLICE and Mr. HOME,
strangers were ordered to withdraw.
A division then took place upon Mr. linmt's amend.
ment,when there appeared—

For the amendment l-2
Against it

Majority against the amendment
The original motion wag then a,-;ree.l to.

Upon our return to the gallery we found
Mr. JAMES complaining that the oririnal ouestion
had been put without his having heard it, and that so he
had lost the opportunity of taking the sense of the Corn-
initte.e upon his amendment, which he bad intended to do.
Mr. I3ERNAL said, that that was not his fault;
and that the only question he had now to put was, that
he should ask leave to sit again.—(" qear, hear," and
laughter.)
Mr. HUME said he must protest against this conduct
of the Chairman.—(boul cries of " Order.") He de-,
clared that he had not heard the question put, and he must
contend that it was most improper to put a qatstiln during
such noise and confusion, that no Hon. Member could
know that any question was being put.—(Renewed cries
of " Order.") No Chairman had aced so before.—...
("prder," " order.")

Mr. BERNAL felt assured that no part of his conluct,
since he had entered upon the discharge of the duties of
Chairman, would justify the observations of the Hon.
Mother for lliddlesex.—(Lowl cheering.) I-Us only
object on the present, as upon all preceding ores-
tsions, had btseti faithfully to tlischioge his du y—
(Cheers)--and he now threw himselffipon the Cotomittre
to decide whether he had failed in that ottj,ct.—(Cries of
•` No," " no," and loud cheering from all parts of the
House.)

Mr. HUME repeated that he, as well as his Hon.
Friend, had not heard the question put.
Mr. JAMES had only made the same ohservation, and
begged it to be understood that he was far from imputing
any blame to the Chairman. On the contrary, he had nn
hesitation in saying their present Chairman was the very
best Chairman of committees be had seen since he entered
I),:rliament in IS2O —(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP must say that he thought there was
not the slightest ground for the observations which had
been male upon the Chairman by the Hon. Member for
Middlesex --(Cheers.)

Mr. HUME repeated that all he had said was, th it the
question had been put in such haste and hurry, as not to
be heard.—(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. ROBINSON denied that in this in.tance there had
been any more hate or hurry finn no all siulilar noca.ions.
For his own part ha had heard the question distinctly and
deliberately put by the Chairman, and if eyntlemen did
lint chase to return to t;,« it :eut v:45 o n
fault, and not the fault of th.: Ch,irmar.—(Cheers.)

On the question, " That the Chairman do ask leave to
sit again." !wing once more putt,
Colonel TRENCH said he wished to a question re-
s.eeting a notice, aside which bad is-en pla-i.l this net
lug upon a certain building,—he meant the o'd ':tables ;it
Chasing-cross. Th no.it.e, he unler:too,i, had since
been removed, but hp was atixious to krruw what it was
intended to do with the building. IL hoped it was not
intended to pall it down, because for :.bout 2,000!. it
might ilia wade a very csnvenient
Lord ALTHORP made soup, reply to the Gallant
Member, but in a tone an low that not a syllable that fell
from him reached the gallery.
The Houao then resume I.—Report to be receive,: to-
morrow, and Committee to sit again on Friday next.
Mr. JAMES gave notice, that he shr-uld take the sense
of the Committee upon his propwiti in at another oppor-
tunity.
Mr, R. GORDON gave untie*, that he should to-
marrow fortnight submit a motion respecting pensions.