The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-22 00:00:00

DELAY OF THE REFORM BILL.

Lord ALTHORP—I rise, in pursuance of a notice I
gave yesterday, to make a motion, to enable the Com-
mittee to make more expeditious progress with the Re-
form Bill. I am aware that the motion I am about to
make is one for which there is no precedent on the Jour-
nals of the House ; and it will, therefore, be necessary for
me to recall to the recollection of the House those special
circumstances which, in my opinion, ought to induce the
House to agree to the motion. 'My proposition is, that
the Order of the Day for the House proceeding with
the Committee of the Reform Bill, shall take pre-
cedence of all public business whatever on those days fur
which it is appointed. The grounds on which I make
this motion are, that the measure is one which, as all agree,
whether they be in favour of, or opposed to, the Bill,
is of the most paramount importance of any that was
ever under the discussion of the House : and not only is
the subject of such importance, Lut it is also of so compli-
cated a nature that it will necessarily lead to much discus-
sion, and consumption of tune in the Committee, thus not
only forming an exception to all rules in its importance,
but also in its details. I do not propose this motion with
a view to any unnecessary haste : I rather propose it in
order to give plenty of time; but that the measure may
not be spread over su large a space as to render it impro
bable that it will come to a satisfactory conclusion at last.
—9-lear, hear.) I am aware that what I am proposing
will form e novel precedent, and that it will be a prece-
dent which might be inconvenient on future occasions ;
but still I think that ware the same consistency com-
bined, as are exhibited in the Frecent discussion, it would
be a peee.edent proper and unobjectionabie, What are the
circumstances? It is a question which interests every
part of the couiitri, from one end of it to another ; and I
should say, even were its importance only one half what
it is, that while it is so deeply interesting to the whole of
the population, it would be wise in the House to give np
the rest of the business before it, for the purpose of attend-
ing the more particularly to this—(Hear, hear)—and I
also think that the country would have a right to expect
this of the prasent House of Commons ; I think that as
it is looking forward with breathless impatience to the
carrying of this one measure, ia has a right to call on its
representatives to postpone all things of minor importance,
in order that they might apply their undivided atten-
tion to this single size. I hare now stated the grounds
on which I make this motioo, It is not necessary for
me further to i'.'ipress these grounds co the House ; for
if there are any gentlemen who do not think that cir-
cumstances in any instance cn justify the precedent which
we are now about to set, nothing that I ,can say will con-
vince them to the contrary. But every ope must be
aware of the truth of what I have :stated.—(Hear, hear.)
Though I,[ shall propose that the Committee on the Re-
form Bill take precedence of all public business, whether
petitions, motions, or tesilers of the day, there are un-
doubtedly petitions which musk form an exception to the
rule, those on the Bill itself, of course, Ling receivable.
I should therefare propose, Sir, hiving communicated with
you on the subject, and having obtained (as might be ex-
pected from your readiness to forward all the objects of the
House) youe kind consent to take the Chair at three
o'clock, as at the coeetnaneement of the Session, and also
to sit on Saturday, for the purpose of taking petitions. 1
should propose that such be the arrangement; by which
means we shall on Saturdays have time for petitions; and
by sneering at three o'clock, we may hope to be able to
proceed to the question of Reform at four—(Hear, hear)
cannot
see thattha t
thel s
House asking
would—and so have about eight hours every night for the die
cusaion of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) In proposing this I
doI
not think
t'
gain oinueh --a(
(CI ey
ers
advantage) fo r
front
varying the subjects under discussion ; on the con-
trary, I think that it will be better able to give its atten-
tion to this absorbing topic b
}O,,
variety. The liable Lord c onl
deendt el ring into any such
ution to the effect of that embraced in ha' pproposing a trio-
Mr. WYNN had heard the Noble Losrd%ech. n
deep concern.—(Year, hear.) If the Governmentiotion with
power to give effect to this motion (but he thankd God

that they had not the power), in what a situation would
that House be placed.—(Cheers.) If the King's Mini-
sters, backed by a majority in that House, were to be
showed to say that for an indefinite time particular busi-
ness (which was proceeding de die in diem) should
always be entitled to precedence over all other public busi-
ness—if no Member, without their consent, was to be
allowed to bring, forward a motion—he should say that
that House was abdicating its functions of being the Grand
Inquest of the nation.—(Cheers.) He felt that it was
only necessary to suggest to the House how imprudent it
would be to agree to so dangerous a precedent.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) It was proposed by the Noble Lord, that
the Reform business should have precedence over all other
business; and that it should come forward on certain
nights, and have priority, even before the presentation
of petition', which was always the first stage of all busi-
nese. What would be the consequence? What would be
the remedy applied ? Why, every person, on the Order of
the Day being moved, might move an amendment, and
might successfully resist the progress. He would be Sorry
that any person should embrace such a course, but he
could conceive cases in which a Member might think
himself warranted. There was a motion of the Hoe.
Member opposite on the state of the poor of Ireland,
which he should say was a question more immediately tit..
importance
—hut would not say of comparatively more
—hut of more immediate urgency than the Reform Bill.
The Hon. Member might think it proper to bring on such
i
a motion. If the Noble Lord should persist n his me.
tion, ice foresaw that debates would be brought on in a
contentious spirit, and in a manner more inconvenient to
the House. That course would be found pregnant with
evils. What then could be done better ? He was disposed
to accede to an understanding or arrangement, by which,
without making a positive order, the Reform business
might come on first. If his Noble Friend would allow
him to suggest, that an understanding of this kind would
be better than an order, because an understanding
could at any time, in a ease of urgency, be set aside, and
no precedent would be made. If they were to establish
such a precedent, it might be used by an overbearing ma-
jority to prevent the business of the House coming on, and
put a stop to the most important and urgent matters. It
might be used, for example, to prevent the House acting
on that order, which said that a Committee of Supply
should precede other business on certain nights, and then
stop the most important business. lle knew that the re-
dress of grievances was the duty of the House before even
granting the supplies. If the House allowed such an or-
der to pass, it might place a power in the hands of the
Ministry to procure the supplies, and then to prorogue the
House,. and take away from a minority the means of even
insuring a discussion, or taking into consideration any
business whatever. He would urge it on his Noble Friend
—he would urge it on the Members of the Government—
that it would be much better to make an arrangement than
to press the motion. He would remind them, that there
was no occasion for the order, because, since the question
of Reform came on this Session, not the slightest attempt
had been made to forward any motion to delay the Reform
Bill. It would be infinitely better to depend on the incli-
nation of the House, than to establish an order of which
no man living could foresee the consequences, or have any
idea of the danger attending it. It might be said he was
tenacious of the precedents, but he had sat for thirty years
in that Ilouse, and he bad seen many individuals live to
regret the precedents they had established to suit a parti-
cular occasion, and which often led to consequences of
which the mover had no idea.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP was aware that the question proposed
might produce great inconvenience ; but, under the par-
ticular circumstances of the case, he theeight that course
necessary. His only object was, to ensure the House
going into a Committee on the Reform Bill, at an early
hour. If, however, he thought that this object could be
obtained by the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend, he
for one should be disposed to agree to that suggestion, if
he found the House ready to come to such an understand-
ing. He was aware that what his Right Hon. Friend had
stated was correct—that no gentleman had interfered with
notices to stop the Reform Bill ; but there had been other
discussions which prevented it being brought on till six or
seven o'clock. If he found the House ready to come to
an understanding, that the discussion on the Reform ques-
tion should always come on at a certain hour, he should
be ready to withdraw his motion. At the same time he
felt that he was bound to propose it, because it was urgent
that some step should be taken.
Mr. GOULBURN objected to the motion, that it
would either hand over the House bound hand and foot
into the power of the Ministers, or it would beget most
unseemly conflicts every day on the motion for going into
a Committee. It would not take from the Members their
power to move an adjourntnent, or to bring forward any
matter of importance as an amendment to the Order of
the Day, as was frequently done last Session by the Right
Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Admiralty, and thus
provoke a debate on any question that from its merits
ought to have a separate and distinct consideration. He
hoped that the understanding would be preferred to the
order ; and, in that case, he for one should offer no ob-
stacle to the arrangement.
Lord MILTON admitted that the order might be preg.
nant with inconvenience, and if its object could be other-
wise attained his Noble Friend would elo well to adopt
the suggestion which bad been thrown out. At the same
time it was necessary that something should be done to
give satisfaction to the country, and get through the busi-
ness, which might be done by an understanding that the
Reform measure should, on the days, appointed for dis-
cussing it, take precedence of all other questions.
Mr. HUNT had a motion standing for the 28th, on
the subject of the Corn Laws, which he thought of quite
as much consequence as the Reform Bill.—(A laugh.) If
the Hon. Member who laughed was living on half a belly.
ful, he would laugh on the other side of his m0uth......
(Great laughter.) Ile thought his motion of great con.
sequence. He did not wish to throw any impediments
in the way of the Reform Bill, but he wished, if he were
not to bring forward his motion, that he should be bound
by an order of the House, rather than trust to its dis-
cretion.—(Hear, hear.) He recommended the gentle-
men on his side, as they had no chance of success, to give
up their opposition to the Bill, and allow the Ministers to
pass the Bill on their responsibility. The public began
to look with a little suspicion on the subject. They
thought there was some tampering with—some getting up
of sham debates—or fighting in muffled gloves ; and he
would recommend that this sort of opposition be with-
drawn. He would rather the House should meet at
three o'clock ; and, after sitting eight or nine hours, they
would then have a chance of getting home and to bed
about the hour that the thieves came abroad.—(A laugh.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL was satisfied, that if the Noble
Lord would only trust to his own plain and unbiassed
judgment, lie would find more facilities for carrying for-
ward the measure, than by attending to the recommenda-
tions of the newspapers, and considering their suggestions.
--(Loud and continued cheers.) Let the Noble Lord act
on his own judgment, and disregard their advice—treat-
ing with indifference and contempt, as he (Sir Robert
Peel) did, the shameful menaces by which it WAS at-
tempted to deter Members of that House from performing
their duty.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord bad trusted the
House, and what had been the consequence? A dispo-
sition to throw no obstacles in his way, which bad gone
so far that even petitions had not been presented, notices
of motion had been waived, and no desire shown to delay
the proceedings of the House. If they were told that
they were to surrender their judgment, and not examine
into the details of a measure that was to give a new Con-
stitution to the country, to that he could not agree, and
of such a proceeding he entirely disapproved. That was
not treating the important subject as it deserved ; but any
party who should propose measures fur the purposes of
delay, would find them recoil on the proposers. At the
saint time the subject should be fully and fairly consi-
dered. There were already several notices given of mo-
tions for amendments of parts of the Bill; there were at
least 16 such notices : two of these had been given by
the Noble Lord (Lord Milton). As 10 out of these
' 16 notices had been given by gentlemen who voted
for the second reading pf the pill, who thought it
right that the subject should be brought under the
consideration of the House under the same aspect as
it appeared to them ; if out of those sixteen, ten were
given by gentlemen who were friendly to the prin-
ciple of time Bill, was it fair—was it just to impute
to those who brought forward amendments, and who
were not friendly to the Bill, a motive to delay it?--
It was said that the Bill would be defeated by delay.
What was the meaning of that ? Hid they not a ins'
jority to support the Bill ? If it was meant that the
ippetite for Reform would be abated, that would be due
to the fair inguence of reason, and nothing else. If the
public should become as weary of the discussion as the
House was—if they should look fu: some other topic 01
interest, some other cause of excitement, of what were
to be the consequence of delay, it allowed there was
ground to doubt if the clamour for Reform was produced
by the evils of the system, and gave ground to believe that
it would die away before the voice of reason. He woul,d
do his best, however, to facilitate the object of the Nehie
Lord, if the Noble Lord was disposed to dispense with
the order, and trust to an amicable understanding. Such
a one had taken place last Session, and under it they had
begun the private business at three o'clock, and the public
business at five, and he thought an amicable understand-
ing at present would be better than an order. Besides,

an order could not be efficacious, as the Members might
claim their right to bring forward any subject, or to pre-
sent petitions, when the motion was for going into the
question of Reform. Ile was sure that if the order were
withdrawn, and an understanding agreed to, that would
be adhered to.

Lord ALTHORP, after the speeches of the two Right

lion. Gentlemen, should be ready to withdraw his motion,
on the House coming to an understanding that the Reform
Bill should go into a Committee every night on which
it was to be discussed, at four o'clock.—(Cries of " no,
no !" and " five o'clock.") He would agree then to five
o'clock.

It was therefore arranged, that it should be an under-
standing that the Reform Bill should come on every
evening at five o'clock, when it stood fur discussion, and
the subject dropped.
COURT OF ADMIRALTY, IRELAND.

On the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT, returns were
ordered of the number of causes tried in the Court of
Admiralty in Ireland, since August I, 1830 ; of the
number of causes set down for hearing, and bow they
were disposed of; and also the number of days the
Court ear.