The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

CoICiNfiTTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
the House should resOlve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY had been asked whether he proposed
bringing forward a motion in the 'Conimittee of Supply on
the- subject of the Lords of the Admiralty. Such was not
his intention,,as he had given notice of a motion for Thurs-
day Se'nnight.
Mr.' BERNAL said he meant to object to that part of the
Estimates which went to provide for the six Lords of the Ad-
miralty.
Tfie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER purposed
soon to state the principle on which' the redtictions which had
taken place had been made. Those. offices which were merely
civil offices, and not political, had been already dealt with. in
others it' was proposed that a reduCtion of 10 per cent, should
be made by an Order in Council.' • .
Mr. HUME said that he hoped the !louse would not go into
a Committee at present, and he would. endeavour to state his
reasons for wishing them to come di that determination.—Vhey
would recollect that the Noble Marquis-opposite had at the be-
ginning of the last Session stated to:.the House on the part Of
Ministers generally that every disposition existed on their,part
to give full information to the House" on all part's of the Esti-
mate. He (Mr. Hume) had hailed that statement with con-
siderable pleasure; and he had expected that it would have
been attended with considerable effect. But he was sorry to
find that; after that declaration had been made, there was still
a wish, on the part of Ministers, to withhold necessary infor.
motion from the House. He should therefore oppose the
motion for the House resolving into a'Committee, because lie
thought that it was the duty of -the House, before •they
voted. the estimates, to know how the sums granted were to be
applied. The first estimate which had been returned to the
House was the estimate fixed for the year 1822, requiring the
sum of 1,781,0001. for the payment of wages, and for the ex*.:
pence of wear and tear in the Ordnance Department. The rea-
son
why he chiefly called the attention of the House to this

subject was,that formerly this vote had passed almost sub silentio.
.No remarks had been accustomed to be made upon it, until last
year, when the House would recollect he had attempted to
awaken the attention of the House to the importance of the
subject. The House Would also recollect that in the year 1817
the Noble Lord had stated, that in the Estimates of that year a
considerable reduction had taken place, but that that reduction
had not been so extensive as it was thought might be effected ;
and that therefore each succeeding year would witness a still
further reduction. Now he was sorry to find, that so far from
a gradual reduction having taken place in each succeeding year,
there had, in point of fact, been a continual increase. He
called.upon the House, therefore, not to place any confidence
in the statements of Ministers, but to judge of them by their
actions. Now, in 1817, the Noble Marquis had fixed the sum
necessary for the payment of seamen's wages, and for the ex-
pense of wear and tear in the Ordnance Department, at the sum
of 1,556,0001. Since that time there certainly had occurred
no reason why the expenditure should be increased. With
regard to seamen's wages it might be, perhaps, allowed that no
reduction could be expected in that particular. Their wages
would necessarily remain nearly the same, because there would
always be a greater number of able bodied seamen in time of
peace than in time of war. But certainly it might have been an-
ticipated that in the amount of the Ordnance charges a consider-
able reduction would have been made. Now, he would ask the
House whether that reduction had taken place? On the con-
trary,did it not appear from the returns on the table, that the es-
timates fixed for the Ordnance department of this year exceeded
by 200,0001. the estimates of 1817. The House would be sur-
prized when it found that the estimates which it would first be
called upon to vote was the sum of 1,781,0001. for the Ordnance
Department of this year, whilst the same expense for 1817'had
only amounted to 1,576,0001. He would ask them what
was the reason why not only no reduction had taken place,
but why an increase of 230,0001. had been added to the esti-
mate ? It was true, that in the year 1817, the lumber of sea-
men and marines had not been so great as at present. In that
year, the number of persons employed in that service had
amounted to 19,000 men, the marines numbering 6000, and the
seamen 13,000. For reasons which he was unable to divine, the
number of marines had since been increased to 8000 men, which
added to 13,000 seamen, produced an aggregate of 21,000 men.
This number was certainly less, by one thousand, than the
amount of last year, but it was 2000 more than had been
employed in 1817. He, for one, certainly had expected, that in-
stead of confining themselves to the standard of 1817, Ministers
would have redeemed the pledge which they had given of carry-
ing into effect reductions considerably below the scale of that
year. Instead, however, of that being the case, the expendi-
ture had now increased to 1,781,0001. He was anxious that
the Houie should not think him unreasonable in the oppo-
sition which he now offered to the motion of the Right Hon-
ourable Gentleman. But he must say, that after the statement
which the Noble Marquis had made in 1817, and after the esti-
mates of the present year had been increased to between two and
300,0001. more than in 1817, the House would not do its duty
were it to vote so Largea sum without knowing precisely how it
was to be applied. It was on that ground, therefore, thathe in.
tended to venture to propose a resolution to the House, calling
for a return of the different items of expence incurred in the
Ordnance Department, and the estimates of the wages of the
seamen. To satisfy the House that he was not unreasonable in
this respect, he would refer them to the Report of the Finance
Committee of 1817, where they would find that the Committee
had expressed dissatisfaction at theexpenditure of the Ordnance
Department, and had called for those returns which he now
wished to have before the House. The Marine establishment
alone had cost the nation, during the last year, 340,0001. being
about one-third more than it had .amounted to during former
years of peace. If, then, the, House was now content to vote the
sums required without a return of the marines and officers, the
effect would be to preclude them from afterwards taking the
sense of the House on those items which they might think ex-
cessive. Why should there be any difference between the man-
ner of making the returns of the marines and that of making the
returns of the military? He knew no reason, except that by the
method now pursued, an opportunity was afforded of covering
the imposition of charges, which, if a fair return were made,
might not be allowed. The very want of a fair return was suf-
ficient to excite suspicions in his mmd that every thing would
not be found as it ought to be. He wished more particularly
for the returns of the Marine Department, because he be.
lieved that there were five or six sinecures to -be found under
it. Let him not be told that those sinecures were intended
,for deserving and meritorious Officers. They might or they
might not be given to such men ; but his objection was,
that these sinecures cost the country about eighteen guineas a
day. He wished, therefore, that the House should know what
was the actual charge of each department. For instance- he
found that there was a very extensive charge for barracks. un.
der that head alone an expense was charged to the country of
120,6801. lie could not imagine how a charge so enormous had
been incurred by such an establishment. Surely if the bar-
racks alone cost the country 120,6801. a year, it was evident
either that the barracks were much larger than there was any
occasion for, or that the money was expended wastefully and
improvidently. In like manner, under the head of contin-
gencies, there was a charge of 12,7281. The Paymaster, and
the Inspector General had also, in the last year, cost the coun-
try 2,9001. He understood that both those offices were of
little importance, but whether they were or not made no dif-
ference to the strength of his argument, which was, that-the
House ought not to vote these sums without knowing exactly
how they were to be applied. If the accounts presented re-
specting the naval expenditure of last year were correct, then to
what a state was the naval establishment of England reduced.
According to those accounts, the expences of the navy had actual-
ly amounted to no more than 300,0001., although the sums voted
under the head of the civil department of the navy had amount-
ed to six millions. It was from a wish, therefore, to obtain fur-
ther information on thatsubject, that he should propose a se-
cond resolution, the effect of which would be produce a return
of the different items of naval expenditure for the year 1821.
With regard to the victualling of the navy he thought that
if the price of provisions had fallen one half, the expense
of victualling ought to be reduced in the same proportion_
He was aware that it would be objected to him that the ex-
pense of victualling ships on foreign stations must necessarily
be greater than, at home. But he would contend, that those
ships if supplied with provisions at the foreign ports where they
might happen to beplaced, would be victualled at a much lower
price there than at home. For instance, the fleet at the East
Indies might be supplied at a much cheaper rate, there than at
home. At any rate, the only extra expence would be the ex-
pence of transports, and a large SUM was annually voted for the
transport service. He called upon the House therefore, before
it consented to go into a Commitpe, to require the returns re-
lative to the expence of victualling the ships afloat. Without
those different returns, it would not be possible for the House
to do its duty. Besides, if the whole proceedings were fair, if
nothing was to be apprehended from a minute investigation,
why should any disposition exist to keep back the several re-
turns The,very desire to keep them back stimulated him to
demand them. If, therefore, he stayed in that place till ten
o'clock the next morning, he would not consent that one
shilling should be voted until the different returns were or-
dered to be made. There was a time for all things, and he
could assure the House that no time could be more proper for
the exercise of their vigilance than the present. If there ever
was a time when the country called upon its Representatives for
a scrutiny, into the measures of Government, it was the present.
If there ever was a time when the mismanagement of Ministers ,
required exposition, it was the present. If there ever was a time
when the falsified statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
(in giving credit for a surplus, of four millions, when, in fact,
there had been only a surplus of one million and a half) required
dontradiction, that time was surely the present. The House ,
ought not to rest satisfied with the statements of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. H is next resolution would refer to the charges
for "the wear and tear in the Ordnance Department. The House
would recollect, in 1817, the Finance Committee had stated that
they considered the expense incurred. to
,have been in building
ships. He (Mr. Hume) would here allow, that he believed that
at no time had the ships in ordinary been in a better condi-
tion than they were at present. He agreed in the propriety
of keeping the ships in ordinary in repair, and he was, there-
fore glad to find that they were at present in a state of
perfect repair. But the amount of eicpence which had been in-
curred was worthy of the consideration. of the House. Since
the year 1816, no less a sum than 17 millions had been expend-
ed building and repairing ships. Why, for such a sum, he
should imagine they might have furnished the. whole world with
ships. The Committee of Finance had certainly stated, that
for a few years an increase in the expenditure of this department
was to be expected, but that after some years a reduction would
take place. In this year he found that the reduction in the
expence of ship-building had been calculatedat 48,0001.; but in
the expences of the wear and tear,_ there had been no. reduction,
and hd thought that the public had a right to expect it. Per-
haps he was not correct in his information, but he was told that
though no returns had been made in the estimates for the Ord-
nance craft, yet that the sum of, 20,0001. had been expended
upon them. He bad last year stated, when the expenditure of
Woolwich had been before the 'House, that that establishment
was kept up in order to serve the voters of Queensborough.
Now lie believed that he could spew that six or eight vessels
belonging
.to the Ordnance craft had been employed for the
last two years . in going from Sheerness to Woolwich, and
from Woolwich to Sheerness,, in order to accommodate, the
Clerks of the Ordnance department in their parties of plea -
sure. The Committee 'of Finance had objected to the float-
ing magazines, and had stated, that after powder had been kept
on board those magazines. for a certain number of months, it
was not fit for use until' it had been relanded.- and dried. If
that statement were true, then he would ask • for what purpose
were the floating magazines kept ? This large establishment had
been kept up against the recommendation of a Committee, and

• if Gentlemen would look to the third Report of the Commitfai
t they would find it proved that the expenditure was useless. Out of
) 130 men who were employed on board those vessels, he believed
that 74 were voters of Queenborough. Besides, he could show
r that six of the vessels employed by the Ordnance all belonged
to voters of Queenborough. He believed also that two other
vessels had been lying at Woolwich with Congreve rockets on
; board, at an expense of 18s. a day each, without being moved
for 4 years. These statements might, perhaps, be regarded as
coming from one who knew nothing of the sea service. Perhaps
• he might know little of that service, as a gallant officer (Sir J.
Coffin) had told them, but he had travelled a good deal, and he
would not, as that Gallant Officer had suggested, go to sea on a
r three-legged stool. He wondered that any man could stand up
in that House and talk in the manner which that Gallant Officer
• had done. With regard to the expense incurred by the manu-
I facture of ammunition, the nation were now at peace with all
the world, and yet the manufacture of gunpowder was daily ear-
-1 ried on at an expense to the country of 10 or 12,0001. a-year.
1 He was speaking now of last year, for he had not yet seen
1 the estimate for the present, and he could not, therefore, say
what degree of reduction was intended. Of this, however, he
was certam, that • if war were now to commence, there was a
• sufficient quantity of ammunition in hand to last the nation for
• twenty years. This country was essentially, he had been
taught, a Civil Government, and her glory depended upon the
• preponderance of the Navy; and though he was not disposed to
• compare one branch of the service with another, yet he was in-
clined to give a preference to the Navy as a more legitimate
• arm of power. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by
moving the following Amendment
" A Return, in detail, of the manner in which the 593,7754
I estimated for Wages of Seamen in 1822, is to be expended e
distinguishing the Number of each Rank of the Royal Marines,.
and the Pay of each Class, and of the whole ;—also the Num-
• ber of Officers of each Rank, and of men in, the Navy, the
Amount of Charge for each Class, and for the whole."
• The question was proposed from the Chair, and Mr. CRoKEN
rising at the same moment with Sir ISAAC COFFIN, the former
' Gentleman's name was called by an universal concurrence of
the House.
Mr. CROKER would rise with great reluctance to oppose
any motions that looked like an inquiry for information, if it
could be supposed that'Government had any wish to keep the
House in the dark. • But he believed he might say, that out of
a million of papers called for by the lion. Gentleman, those
now moved for were the .first that had ever been refused. He
thought not the slightest reason had been shewn why the papers
should be produced. On the contrary,. Ministers had not only
a good Parliamentary ground for refusing them, but he might
go the length of saying; that they could not be produced altoge-
ther consistently with the interest or with the safety of the
country. He believed the Navy Estimates had been brought
forward in nearly the same way for 160 or 170 years,
and that among all the fancies that had entered the heads of
Members—among all the wishes entertained by individuals,
and among all the motives that had ever animated different
parties, this was the first time that ever a motion any thing at
all like the present had been made in that House. He meant
to say that these circumstances proved, at least, that our ances-
tors, and we ourselves in later times, had seen good reason for
treating this part of the public service with peculiar delicacy.
He only asked, the House to allow this, and he would then
proceed, and pledge himself to disprove every one of the
statements of the Hon. Member, and to shew that they were
full of the most egregious and extraordinary mistakes • or, to
borrow a metaphor from the Hon. Member, as he called it,
blunders that any human being could ever have committed.—
If he did not do this, he would allow that there was a case for
the House to consider whether they would alter the practice
which had been observed in all time. He should not follow
the Honourable Gentleman into the minuteview which he had
taken of the subject, because the House ought not to be
led away from the broad principles upon which the question
rested. The naval service of the country, as voted by Parlia-
ment, was placed under three large divisions. The first was
that which they were now to consider the fleet afloat, embracing
all the men actually embarked, the ships that • had sailed,
and those under orders to sail upon services connected with
the destinies of the country. He felt that he could not too
strongly impress upon the minds of Members that the motion of
the Honourable Gentleman was for an inquiry into the state
of this branch, namely, the fleet afloat. The next class was the
ordinary Estimates of the Navy, which referred to the Civil
Naval Department in England alone. The third part was the
Extraordinary Estimates, relating to the building of ships, and
of work done in the Dock-yards. Now at all times, where the
fleet afloat had been treated with the utmost delicacy by Parlia-
ment, the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Estimates had been
laid before it in the most ample detail. The cause of this might
readily be found in the difference which existed betiveen the
services. • The difference was this ; no danger or inconvenience
could arise from making public the state of the Navy in Ener.
land. But the greatest possible danger must inevitably
result from giving such information as to the state of
the fleet afloat to England, and through 'England, 'to the other
parts of the world.—(Hear, hear !)—When the Hon. Member
spoke of the expense of victualling the Navy, he calculated on
the. prices of Leactenhall market, and .upon the markets in the
vicinity of London. But an Hon. Friend of his reminded him
of the foreign stations. "Oh !" said the' Honourable Mem-
ber, " send out provisions for the foreign stations." ' bid
'the Honourable .Member mean to say that he under-
stood the victualling of the Navy so well, that he could victual
it for the same expense abroad as at home ? Did he nqt
knoW that there would be a difference of expense be-
tween one station and another ? If, therefore, they were ob-
liged to account far the application of the Estimates. before-
hand, it would be necessary to state the extent of force
to be sent out to every foreign station. This information never
had been disclosed; and the House would ,see the propriety
with which it had been withheld. The Honourable Gentleman
had. said that he got information from the Government Offices,
and that shewed that there was no disposition on tile part of
Government to withhold it where it could be safely granted.—
The Hon. Member also argued that he ought to have the Papers
for which he had moved, because information of a similar
character had been given.. to a Select Committee upon a pre-
vious occasion. But that was no reason, or rather it was
an adverse reason, to the granting of the Honourable Mem-
ber's request. Ile then came to what the Honourable Member
had said about the wear and .tear of the Navy. The Hon.
Gentleman, however, had found out, that since the year 1817-
no less a sum than 17,000,0001. had been expended in building
ships. This, he said, was enough for all the Navies of the
world. Now he (Mr. Croke* would say so too, if the facts
were true. But if he could not skew to the Hone Member,
and to the House, that neither seventeen nor seven millions had
been so expended, he would be ready to grant the informa•
tion which the Hon. Member desired.—(Cheers !)—The Hon.
Member really obliged him to recur to his metaphor of blun-
ders—or nonsense he believed it was, for his statements con-
tained nothing else.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. Member had
mistaken stone for wood,—(Laughter)—land for water, and
storehouses for ships.—(Continued. laughter.)—Nay, he had
mistaken the building of ships for the improvements that
had been carried on at Sheerness ! He would now tell the
House why he believed the Honourable Member to have
done this. He found that the works at Sheerness, he ex-
pences of the Dock Yards, the building of ships, and the
expenses of the Plymouth Breakwater, during the period al-
luded to, came to about the sum stated by the. Hon. Member.--
(Hear, hear, hear I)—He happened to have in his hand, by
mere chance, the accounts of the ship-building expenses.for the
verg period which the Hon. Member had chosen for making his.
calculations, and with the permission of the House he would
read them, and then ask if they would overturn the. practice
of a century and a half, upon the strength of such statements.
The sum voted in 1817, for the building and repairing ships,
wa5'1,391,0001.
Mr. HUME said 1 600 0001.

Mr. CItOKER-.-" I have it here from the Journals." The-
Hon. IVleuaber then read from the Journals, that in the year
1817, the grand total for ships was 1,391,2371.—(Cheer5.)--
For 1818, the. grand total was 1,130,0001. . For 1819,-
1,444,0001. For 1840, 1,148,0001. For MI, 1,094,0001_ He
knew it was difficult fur Gentlemen to retain numbers in
their heads, by merely having them announced. But they
would bear in mind that in no. one of the fire years had the
sum amounted to two millions. Yet, in that period, the Ho-
nottrable Gentleman did not hesitate to say that the expenses
for ships amounted to 17,000,0001—(Loud cheers).—Aiter all
the charges and statements, however, the " noble was come
to ninepence." The 'total of this expense, instead of being
17,000,0001. was 5,900,0001.—(L0ud cheering).—After all this
misrepresentation about the wear and tear, the Hon. Gentl-
eman got up to dictate to the House of Commons what it
should do, and expressed a determination to keep the Speaker'
in the Chair until ten o'clock in the morning, unless he pro-
cured the information which he sought. If he meant to wait'
for such information as would enlighten his misunderstand—
ing, he might have to wait erealonger than that.,--(A laugh'.)
The Honourable Member said, he did not misunderstand the
wear and tear—or the tear and wear, as he called it. Per-
haps this confusion of words created the confusion of under-
standing, and gave rise to the Hon.. Gentleman's blunders
and mistatements,—(Loud. laughter.)—The Hon. Member
(Mr. Croker) here alluded to some interruptions which came
from the other side. He could easily conceive the difficulty
with which the ,Hon. Gentleman waited until he had done'',
when he remembered that he (Mr. Croker) could scarcely
contain himself while the Hon. Gentleman was making his
statements. The Hon. Member had said that 'the wear and
tear was created .in going up to. town, in yacht
.sailing,
awnings upon deck for dances, and in services of that nature..
He would tell him, that during the last season there had
been more wear arid tear of human labour in the Channel
than at almost any period during the war,—(Hear, bear?

I