The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AIARCII 20, 1849,

Passes; in a tron:cal climate. In 1843, the In
"as only 2:1,- per cent, ; in 1844. 2,1 j nor cent.; in 1845 :3 1
Per cent.; us 1546, 2 per cent.; in 1847 (yellow Rover). 7
Per cent. In the islard. of llsrha ,oes no legit:r eie
. e
than 1.000 lest eon:a be rea.:Aied, end :s 01")-
;1011 of medical menty,t. above thi! 11
tlrface of the fever cQntagi n. With reia ct to
tee,
-cePtnant of the men, of course, General Pe,rkelty
Possessed the power of ordering such en,arn:)ment, but
net tnu -1
after receiving a report from the tnedin,loth,s,r
as to the necessity of a measure of that kind. Ia ;nen.
..ing the name of General Berkeley, he was bound to
;:aate that his attention to the men under his conitnend
A°s unremitting. He visited them, not weekly, bit
te▪
ta
3; went from bed to bed in every ward, sp -)ke to
ir,"ero, encouracred them, risked his life for th-ir corn-
Crt• He was happy to state that the epidemic
a great degree passed away, and that, according to
h e last accounts, there remained enly two caws in tile
eiisPital. hoped the unforunate occurrences which
taken place would lead, at least, to this good re-
-4111t--the establishment at B trhadoeu of an effici,nt
sanitary barrack upon Gun Hill, to which the troops
could in future be removed on the first appearance
c
Yellow fever. He wished now to say a few
0413 as to the general conduct of the army during
foe Past year. The House, after what it had dune
" the army of late years. could not fail to take a lirely
hi terest in the moral conduct and general behaviour of
the troops. He had not been able to collect all the its
formation he had wished to obtain on this subject; but
he might state to the House the result of his ioquir its
Rite reference to the troops stationed in Ireland during
De months of June, July, August, and September lat.
I,ll,ting rhet time the ater portion of the ary in Ire-
-1,;11 Was either under canvass, exposed tom ery bad
.eather, or huddled up in barracks, where very insuffi•
e accommodation could be provided for large nurn-
"3 of men; and the troops were, therefore, exposed to
privations which, if discontent had existed, would pro.
LablY have led to its manifestation by acts of misconduct.
4„Ple month of June there was in Ireland 28,324 men,
std Corporal punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,149; in
pelt' the army consisted of 27,954 men, and corporal
punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,106; in August there
sere
30,996 men. and corporal punishment was awarded
3,1 in 3,099; and in September the army numbered
is men, and corporal punishment was awarded to 1
Srl 2,403. During the whole year the punishments in the
were only in the proportion of 1 in 1,090 men; and
With.
held, ln the same period the total number of courts-martial
including regimental as well as general courts, was
'll'Y 1,228. He thought this statement was sufficient to
ancilv that the general good conduct of the army would
slot only realise the hopes of that House, but would give
:aerie and the country reason to be proud that they had a
body of men to whom they could so confidently look for
Protection.---(Hear, hear.) The total number of men
placed in confinement during the year ending the 31st of
December, bad been 4,043; and the average number in
confinement had been 784 ; and the total expense of
I,ll,eir,:maintenance had been 14,8011., which was more
'earl covered by the stoppage of their pay and beer-
raey during their imprisonment. Then with regar,d to
k 6 conduct of the prisoners, the extent of serious offences
if()Ught before the visitors might be judged of from
ipunishments inflicted. He found that, for prison
cuences, 21 prisoners bad '.been placed in solitary con-
'OeMent, 1 in irons, and corporal punishment had been
itukflicteel in 13 aggravated cases. He thought these facts
bowed that their endeavours to improve the moral con-
tilt;
en of the army had been successful, and should
ien-
courage' them to persevere in the same course.—(Hear,
eat) With regard to the education of the men, six
trained schoolmasters were about to be sent from the
establishment originated by his Right Hon. Friend op-
°site to take charge of garrison schocls in England ;
tirl hWould e hoped that many years would
system of school train-
el for the whole army. The advantage of this arrange-
''eat would be that such soldiers as chose to receive
Instruction, and all the children of soldiers, would find,
ticenuoving to new quarters, that the change in the
bbdlity of the school was not accompanied by any
tlge in the system of education pursued. He wished,
-fore he sat down, to say a few words in refutation
Charges which had been brought against the army in
~tleral by a body of individuals who had constituted
themselves a Financial Reform Committee in Liverpool.
*.*-oh(tlear, hear.) He wonld not have noticed any of these
f-ustges it they had been founded in fact or in truth.-
I„.4ear, hear, and cheers.) Ile did not object, and he was
,e're no persons in the army would object to the cloa.st
1„„!Iltilay into the whole expenditure of that service; but
t,,t" such a scrutiny the officers of the army had no-
-1.,r14 to do; it rested with the officials of the Government
ot)4 With the determination of the House. He would not
toJeot to any scrutiny into the expenditure of the army
ktiducted in a fair and proper manner; but, as the state-
pe,nts put forth by the Financial Committee of Liver-
,vvere neither founded in fairness nor in justice-
13`;Ileers)—and as they would tend not only to do infinite
D3l-IrY to the army, but to the very parties who were
v ,titting forth those statements, he thought it necessary
I,,ay a few words on the subject. The committee to
to
sulch he alluded had attacked the system of clothing
army ; but surely they might have attacked that
,"
Ystem without imputing motives—(Near)—to the colo-
:els whose duty it was to provide, the clothing for their
ens not by any arrangement of their own, but under a
flYstera which had existed for upwards of 140 years.--
elear, bear.) The committee might certainly have
focillired into this matter before insisting that the co-
tr,4os and quarter-masters of regiments laid their heads
the to change the pattern of the articles with which
the soldier was compelled to provide himself, in order
That their own profits might be enhanced.—(Llear, hear.)
8,."6 system clothing the army had been the subject of
n`vtra.l inquiries, and it the parties by whom those in-
b,lllLries had been conducted had not been able to recent-
tie,4,l a better plan than that now pursued, he did not
d`nnk it very likely that the Liverpool Committee would
130„ So. In 1783 the clothing system was inquired into
that
the Commissioners of Public. Accounts, who stated
;',t they could not recolimend any change either in
Pitt of economy, or of satisfaction to the soldier. In
,98 the subject was inquired into by the Finance Com-
,-Ittee, end in 1808 by a military commission, with the
',toe result. In 1333 a Committee of that House, many
„°1 Whom he would venture to say were as prejudiced as
113' members of the Liverpool Fivancial Committee,
rent into the consideration of the subject, and they
agreed unanimously to a report, containing these pas•
sages;--

It further appears that the wholesome cautions end
Checksil by which the supply of clothing by the colonels
as been accompanied have invariably secured the
h
h'llbfort and satisfaction of the soldier, and the complete
eiency of this branch of the public service. The Com.
it'lulttee are not, therefore, prepared to suggest any
tLenge in this long-established system, which, although
„`
first it may appear anomalous, and to involve the oh
3eetinnable principle of giving profit to the colonels out
till moneys ostensibly voted for another purpose, secures
t t responsibility of those officers for the just and puce-
:al distribution of the clothing to the different regi-
TentB dispersed as they are throughout various and chi-
-44t colonies, and which at the same time protects the
public from the losses to which they would be exposed
119 the accumulation of stores of this description supplied
establishments,
the management of public boards from extensive
e'atablishments, superannuation allowances to those who
,2tlduet them, and from that multiplicity of accounts
t& whom
a transfer of the charge of this supply from those
i" whom it is now vested into any other hands must
tie produce."
tine thought then, that it was somewhat hard to charge
droll the "clothing colonels," as they were, mo;:t invi-
111.`,'Ilily called, the responsibility of a system which they
not themselves created—which had underrone
had 3 than four scrutinies, and fur which no substitute
t 8 been proposed.—(Hear, hear.) But he was sorry
Observe that the Liverpool Committee did not confine
ernselves to these insinuations against the colonels; he
hadtc read their pamphlets with great care, and it seemed
nini that their chief object was to run down the officer
the opinion of the soldier.—(hear, hear.) The offi-
th-rs of hwasmy were held up to odium, and it was said
ta-e etrrny a erected and maintained for the benefit of
w`le aristocracy. Indeed the whole tone of the pamphlet
tr,tts, in his opinion, dangerous in the extreme, not only
es' the constitution of the army, but to the very exist-
of good order in this country.—(Hear, hear.)
th, if the soldier should, from any circumstace, lose
at confidence which he now justly reposned in his
to
Itithanding officer, and if he consequently lost his
iegard for discipline, he (Mr. Fox Meule) bad no hesi-
Itien in saying that the army wonld at once be
Come an armed rabble.—(Hear, hear.) If this were
„ ease; who would be the first to suffer from such a
ttate of things? Not the officers of the army, not the
landed gentry, who lived on their estates in the country;
but the inhabitants of towns. Instead of having or-
derly and well-behaved soldiers, who kept their hands
from picking and stealing, and who offered no violence
to their neighbours, walking through the streets, they
lietild have a disorderly rabble, thieving in one diree-
ttl";.oe, and assaulting in another,
b and the peaceable intim,
'tents would rue the day when the Financial Reform
Committee of Liverpool, or any other Reform Col:mit-
t
a"' began to hold up the officers of the army to odium
reproach.—(Hear.) He did not make these obser-
ihationa from any objection to inquiry into the expendi_
f:rolof the public money, but because he thought any
r(lniry on this subject should be carried on with due re-
td to the feelings of the officers of the army, to the
discipline of their men, and to the safety of the public ;
and
ee not in a manner which might tend to destroy that
isPect for authority and discipline without which the
tittsh army, instead of being a boast and protection,
would 4, be a disgrace to this country.—(Hear.)
he CHAIRMAN then read the first vote, for 103.254
mento constitute the land forces of the United Kingdom.
Lord DRUMLANRIG said, he thought the House
wweald agree with him that the mortality at Barbadoes
a 8 00 light cage. Out of 13 officers who accompanied
theh 66th Regiment only two had escaped the fever, seven
th4d died, and four had been at the point of death. The
o'rtality in the 72d Regiment was quite as bad, and still
tontinued. He was glad to hear that a new station was
be erected for troops in Barbadoes. The present bar-
to
titts at St. Anne's were moat defective in accommoda-
t rt.. The barracks were built in a square, so that there
oald never be a free current of air; and they adjoined a
R
1/,!ve'Fard, from which there was a most offensive smell.
" officer had more than one room, and from 80 to 90
men were crammed together in one apartment. He hoped
that Assistant-Surgeon Simpson's letter to Dr. Davy,
h: medical superintendent, would be produced, because
err
informed that at least 40 men died before orders
el:3 given to encamp the regiment. The expenses in-
-I:),'red by the officers had arisen from their having the
thtraeks when the fever broke out, and hiring houses at
tO5 Cost of 71. or Si. a month.
10:41'. HUME was gratified to find that gradual pro-
Our"swas being made in ameliorating the cDnditiun of
heard in that House of the brutal treatmtlnt to which
ldie
lao,h re were subjected,—of one man receiving 1,000
", or more, that until they treated men better they
mustil. not expect better conduct; and now that corporal
pt
hilizent was almost entirely abolished, they found

;he conduct of soldiers was grea'ly improved.—(llear,
hear.) He hoped tee Secretary at War would persevere
in his entleavour3 to promote the c,.millort of tot' troops;
and he (Mr. lit me) wo:ild recon,m,-nd that pro visi?ri
siould be merle in coneexion with all barracks tor
elieblitig the men to empley their spare time in amuse-
ments or he-dthiul exercise, He hoped his Right Hon.
Friend would persevere in providing room and means in
all barracks to enable the men to improve themselves; for
he understood from offieers that, when such means ex-
isted, there was always a certain numb r of men in
every company taking advantege of them, nod gradu-
ally inducing otleers, by their example, to abandon
habits of idleness. lie should not grudge the trifling,
expense neceseary for this object, being convinced that
tale greeter efficiency of the mesa would more than on-
letaintes! any t.uFa of money expensierl in promoting their
health and morel;.—(Hear, Bear.) With respect to the
Liverpool Association, he thought his Right Hon. Friend
might have omitted his allusions to that body. lie (Mr.
Hume) was mot a member of that association only be-
cause he resided at a deitance, and had laid doss n a rule
to confine hims-lf within whet he called his own legiti-
mate limits.—(Leughtrr.) lie thought the Liverpool
Association had done good service in opening the eyes of
the country to abuses in regard to the national establish-
ments. He, had often heard it remarked that that man
was a benefactor to his country who made two blades of
gra-s grow where only one grew before ; end so he
thought he was a national benefactor who could melee in
future 51. go as far as 101. dial at present.—(Elear, and
laughter.) The charge against the Liverpool Associa-
tion was that they had accused the colonels of regiments
of being teilors.
Mr. F. MAULE.—The charge against the Liverpool
Association is that they accused the colonels of com-
bining with the quarter-masters for the purpose of
cheating the soldiers.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME admitted that that was a great error, and
most unjust accusation.—(Hear.) This he knew from
the investigation before the Committee of 1833, for
which be moved; but at the same time he must
observe that at that period the artillery were clothed
better than the line (though the clothing of the latter
had improved since the sitting of that Committee), and
no colonel was connected with the clothing of the artil-
lery in the same way as in the line. While willing to
accord to colonels of the line all that their rank and
station entitled them to, he still retained his opinion,
that connecting the colonels with the clothing of the
men was placing the former in an anomalous situation,
and that it would be better net to afford even el pretence
for charges such as the Right Honourable Gentleman
had alluded to.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it, therefore,
hard that a severe charge should have been made against
the Liverpool Assocation for an error into which they
might have been led in consequence of the anoma-
lous pcsition in which the colonels were placed.
The Liverpool Association would do no evil if they con-
fined themselves to the truth—(Hear, hear)—and to
official documents, as they were now doing. They
would then be conferring on the country good service,
and he would not quarrel with them for one or two ac-
cidental errors. With regard to the health of the army,
he recollected that when, many years ago, he proposed
that statistics on the :subject should be communi-
cated to Parliament, he was laughed at by the greater
part of the military men in the House; but now he trusted
that those statistics to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had referred, and to the preparation of which Colonel
Tulloch had devoted his talents, would be laid before
the House ; for he was certain that they would be
found extremely useful. With regard to the present
estimates, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman bad
laid them before the House in a very clear and distinct
manner, and had candidly stated the reasons why the
proposed large military establishment was to be
maintained. One of these reasons consisted in
the aspect of affairs abroad.—(Hear.) Now, though
he (Mr. Hume) was anxious to see our troops effec-
tive and our military establishment adequate, he was
against maintaining an excessive establishment, which
drined the resources of the country, and was only re-
quired for the purpose of med,iling with the affairs of
other nations. Had this country abstained from inter-
ference in the affairs of other nations, the people would
have been saved from an addition of debt amounting to
between 600,000.0001., and 700,000,0001.; and, conse-
quently, no declaration gave greater satisfaction than
that of Lord Grey, in 1830, that his Government would
act on the principle of non-intervention. He could not
understand why we should put ourselves to so great an
expense by maintaining an exorbitant military establish-
ment, for the purpose of enabling us to iuterfore abroad,
and preventing tue people there settling their own affairs
as they pleased.—(Hear, hear.) Fer this reason he
objected to the number of men now proposed to be
voted. Jr it were said that the proposed amount
must be kept up to enable us to provide for our
colonies, ho would ask where was the country which
would attempt to interfere with any of our colonies?
England must be low and weak indeed before any
nation would dare to do so; and, consequently,
he did not see that the troops of this country were now
wanted in the colonies. Canada Lad now a responsible
Governnae, t, and yet in British North Ascetics no less
than 6,000 or 8,000 troops were maintained, together
with accompanying artillery, sappers, miners, and com -
miseariat, for a certain number of the line not only re
quired an expenc iture on their own account, but always
induced a great additional expense for other companies
attached to them In these colonies why should not the
militia be sufficient for the preservation of tranquillity ?
Or, if that body were not sufficient for the purpose, let
the colonies maintain a police at their own expense.
Were riot Van Diemen s Land and New South Wales
capable of governinL themselves, if we would only
allow them, and lock the doors of the Colonial-office ?
The Right Ilonottrabl9 Gentleman might allude to
Ceelon, but what I. d to the war ? The misconduct of
the Government ; and if we would send out men
utterly incapable, and assist them with the mischievous
meddling of the Colonial-office, could we wonder that
war was the result ? Take the Cape of Good Hope
and New Zealand ; now that matters were settled,
why should the people of England, borne down as they
were by various circumstances and changes, be required
to maintaln such large military establishments? It Par-
liament would take from Ministers their power of ship-
ping off thousands of our countrymen to support good or
bad government in the colonies, as might happen, it
would be doing a great kindness to the Ministry, placing
them in a situation to avoid the complaints at present
made.—(Hear, and a laugh.) With regard to the re-
serve, the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had
made too much of that. But to come to the subject of
the force at home; was it not a matter of serious consi-
deration that the House should be told by the Govern-
ment that it was necessary to maintain 20,000 men more
than we had in 1839 at home, for fear of the people?
He (Mr. Hume) had always considered England a
country governed by civilians, and proud of the boast of
Elizabeth, when asked where were her guards. t'Look
around; every subject I have is my guard." Now
we were changing our tone, and keeping 50,000
soldiers iu these islands. No class was more
interested in maintaining the public peace than the
working man, for he must be the first and greatest
sufferer in case of disturbance; and if so large a force
was required to preserve peace at home, it was high time
to ascertain what were the causes of discontent that ren-
dered it necessary.—(Hear.) From the time of the
Duke of York becoming Commander-in-Chief this
country lost much of its civil character; we had had
too mossy ealdiers ; and the magistrates were too fond
of sending for troops in case of any disturbance, instead
of trusting to the civil power. *Souse magistrates, if a
cat disturbed a heap of straw, were for sanding for a
troop of soldiers.—(Laughter.) The affair at Leeds
had been inentiened; and so this large military force
was to be kept up from fear of men asking for their
rights!—(ilear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F.
Maule), indeed, had no power to refuse these requests
ler military aid--it rested with the Home-office; but lit
him tell the Home Secretary, when he came in, or any
other of the Ministers—none of them were ire the House
—that it would be much better to yield to ::the reason-
able wishes of the mass of the people than to maintain
a force to keep them quiet—to make them contented,
and then the posse cemitatus would suffice to preserve the
peace.—(Hear, hear.) Why, last year we had a force of
above 185,000 armed men, and, with the police, upwards
of 200,000. Surely we were losing our senses, fright-
ened at our own shadows, and bearing down ourselves
with the load of military expense. Let it not be said
that he (Mr. Hume) was proposing too large a reduction;
the average number of men voted for the army in the
three years 1833 to 1836 was 86,547, and the force was
found sufficient to maintain peace and quietness at home
and abroad. He thought he had made out a strong
case. Let lion. Gentlemen opposite support him, and
he would make a reduction that would include malt-tax,
hop-duty, bricks, soap, window, paper duty, some
9,950,000/.; in fact, we might save 11,000,0001 with
great ease, and be in perfect security. The Hon. Gen-
denary' concluded by moving that the number of men
should be reduced to 89,000.
The question having been put,
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND thought that as none of her
Majesty's Ministers were present to give their opinions
to the House—and no doubt they were discussing these
matters over a cool bottle—(A laugh)—such humble
Members as himself might as well have a little conversa-
tion on the subject of the estimates. The Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Montrose said he thought there
ought to be a great reduction in our military establish-
ments, and he complained that there was much extrava-
gance shown in all these matters. Now undoubtedly
thero
was a great expenditure under this head ; but he
though!, it was evident that the more we increased in
trade, in manufactures, and population, the more we
mustincrease in a force of some kind, and he did not
much care whether that force appeared in blue coats or
in red.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the country boobies
(as the country gentlemen might perhaps be called on
the other side) who caused this increase, but
it was the mayors of enlightened town consti-
tuencies in the manufacturing districts who called
meetings with one hand, and with the other applied
for military aid to keep them in order—(A laugh)—for
just in proportion as these merchants anti manufacturers
were cowards the one minute they were bullies the other.
—(A laugh.) They were the people who led us into
war in China and South America, as the House had
heard the other night, and now they turned tail upon
her Majesty's Government, and charged it with having
incurred the expense.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now
he thought that if they entered into war they should
not come out of it till they had conquered.—(Hear.)
Either they should not begin to fight at all, or they
should fight if it was necessary till they were dead.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) They were bound to stand
upon tee ground they had taken up tid they could get
is ell out of it, and then they were not to grudge the ex-
penses incurred by the Government.--(Hear.) Now, as
regarded the artillery, it had been complained of that
we had a much greater outlay for artillerymen than we
had during the war. Unquestionably it was so ; but
there was not a man, even the lowest judge in military
matters, who did not coness that the arm in which we
were most inferior during the war was the artillery.—
(Hear, hear.) And then it must be remembered that it

was impossible to find this arm in time of war, but by
long previous service. But they were told that thee
things were only said on the word of military men; that
these military men were not proper judges how to de-
fend the country, and that civilians were the only good
judges on such a :mteter. Now, this folksy ley at the
bottom of the whole question, and it was therefore well
to examine it a little. It appeared to him that it was a
burlesque of the old saying, " Who drives fat oxen
should himself be fat."—(A laugh.) In other words,
" Who pays a general must himself be a general."—(A
Nigh.) It was gravely maintained by the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for the West Riding
that it was a question for the tax-payers, and
not the military, to decide what was the pro-
portion of men necessary for the defence of
the country.—(Hear.) Why, if Gentlenr n opposite
did not see the absurdity of such an ergument, he hoped
the country would. Ho would tell them that they were
not competent judges of this matter. What would they
think if a party of general officers were to go to Mon-
, chesier to iestruct them how to make cotton twist?—
("Hear. hear," and a laugh.) Would they not answer
that they were a set of meddling fools? On the same
principle, he held that Gentlemen in that House were
going beyond their borders, that they were presuming
too far when they entered upon a matter of which they
were essentially, and necessarily, and naturally not
judges.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
ber for the West Riding, however, said, " You only are
the judges—take care, therefore, how you perform your
duty; you arc sent here to determine upon all these,eco-
nomical questions." Now they might sit in that House
as judges, but then there were among them certain gen-
tlemen who had been called to the particular business of
doing duty in the service of the Crown. These Gentle-
man were made acquainted with the affairs of all the va-
ried Governments of Europe, and were capable of
knowing their objects and intentions. Looking,
then, at the general state of Europe, they might
say that they required a certain number of
soldiers to carry on the business of their Government;
but Hon. Gentlemen opposite, having no means of know-
ing these matters, exclaimed, " Oh, the Government is
wrong; they do not know what is required for the in•
terests of the country; we alone know what number of
men are required."—(Hear, hear.) Now he held that,
as judges of the case before them, they had nothing to
do but to decide according to the opinion of her Majesty's
Government, who only could know what the circum-
stances of the country required.—(Bear, hear.) It ap-
peared to him that on such a question they were all
equally stupid—(A. laugh)—and that they ought to put
confidence in those persons who must, of necessity, be
better informed that the Gentlemen seated on the other
side.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had spoken
of the evidence given by the late First Lord of the Ad-
miralty before the Committee as embracing " a vague
generality," because he said the reasons for preferring a
certain number of sailors and soldiers were to be con-
sidered, not with reference to the year 1835, but to the
general state of Europe. Now, he looked upon that not
as a " vague generality," but as common sense; and he
must say, that of all persons in the world, the Man-
chester gentlemen had given proof of their utter
incompetence to give reasons drawn from the general
state of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that
a more upright man or one who would give more satis-
factory testimony regarding what he saw or heard did not
exist than the Hon. Member for the West Riding; but
they must recollect also that there was not a man in the
country who stood convicted of being so utterly unable
to give an accurate opinion of the state of Europe as the
Hon. Gentleman was.—(A laugh.) No man had been
so unfortunate in his prophecies—none had ever been
so completely refuted by the events.—(Hear, hear.) He
spoke of our having nearest us peaceable and friendly
neighbours ;—why, he might go to the Zoological-gar-
dens, and, because he saw the tigers lying quietly in
their lairs, he might speak of them as peaceable and
harmless animals; and perhaps he might amuse himself
with the antics of the monkeys. But let them be set
loose, and he would find what altered creatures both
tigers and monkeys would become.—(A laugh.) In
Francs the whole nation to a man had been rendered
able to express their opinions, and they had just run
mad after the ghost of a grey greatcoat and a very little
hat.—(A laugh.) ,They had just given to the world the
information that the tirne.whea they were happiest was
not a time of free trade, but when they were under the
Berlin and Milan decrees; that the time they were look-
ing beck to with the greatest delight was when they
were under an absolute Emperor, and that the thing they
were aspiring to again was another thirty years of war
with England.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON, in reference to what had fallen from
the lion. Gentleman opposite, would admit that, if he
wanted to know how to deal with a regiment when it
was broueht into the field, he would apply to a military
officer; and if he wanted to know how a ship was to be
kept away from a lee shore, or handled in battle, he
would apply.to a professional man, but he would not
apply to a 'professional man on matters of general
policy, or as to what was necessary for the safety of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He declined altogether setting
up military and naval men as a sort of independent go-
vernment in the state.—(Hear, hear.) On the coutrary,
he regarded them as public servants, and not as the
only persons to be consulted as to the number of men
the establishments of the country required. There were
always complaints of the great difficulty which Govern
went felt in resisting the demands of the army, &c., for
grants, and it itwere not for what were called the gen-
tlemen of the Manchester school, those appeals would
become altogether irresistible. He would support the
motion of the lion. Member for Montrose, mainly be-
cause_ no reason had been shown for keeping so large it

force in our colonies. As to the Committee- appomted
to inquire into the condition of the services, ho could
not help expressing a wish that they had been em-
powered to inquire into the amount of the forces re-
quired, 51 that they might have the whole question thus
brought before thom.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL would promise the Government
that if they brought in measures to meet the just de-
mands of Ireland, they would be able to dispense with
three-fourths of the military now in that country.
Mr. W. P. WOOD, after the lecture read to the House
by the Hon. Member oppoeite (\lr. Drummond) did not
rise to speak on this subject without some apprehensions.
His principal reason for doing so, however, was to dis
charge a duty to his constituents, from 1,250 of whom
he presented a petition on this subject last session. That
petition was signed, among others, by Mr. Caldwell, who
had had great experience in the recruiting service; and
it suggested to the House to employ the militia staff for
the purpose of recruiting the army, to form the recruits
into special corps similar to those of the pensioners, to
be drafted off into the different regiments when ne-
cessary, and that in the meantime they might be em-
ployed doing the same duty as pensioners. Such
was the opinion expressed in that petition, and he
understood the plan had been approved of by
experienced officers. It always appeared to him
that there were no debates in that House so
unsatisfactory as the debates on the estimates.
They were generally of a stereotyped character.—(Hear.)
A. certain number of gentlemen got up and said they sup-
ported the Gorernment because it had the responsibility
of administering the affairs of the country. On the other
hand, in the same stereotyped term the Government
came forward and said none of the responsibility was to be
thrown upon them; that every vote was agreed to by the
House; and that they were not to be held answerable for
it. Now, bath these propositions could not be correct; and,
hence the unsatisfactory character of these debates. As
to professional men tieing the only judges, he would ad-
mit that the lion. Gentlemaa (Mr. Drummond) would
be correct if the question was ae to how troops were to
be occupied in the field. They were called upon to vote
27,000 men more than in 1835, 1836, and 1837; in addi-
tion to which there was a force of 15,000 pensioners,
who did not exist in those years, besides a large increase
of police in this country and the constabulary of Ireland.
These were matters upon which the House might lairly
he deemed competent to form an opinion. It was obvious
too, that whenever the cause of increase of force had
ceased to exist they never heard of any reduction.
This was a tact which naturally struck the most
common understanding. Another form which these
stereotyped debates assumed was this:—They were
told they were now at peace with all the world; but they
must remember the only way to preserve that peace was
to be well armed. Of course they ought to be effi-
ciently armed; but why, in order to be so, was it ne-
cessary to have 27,000 men more now than at ally former
period? And were there not other measures which
might make them more likely to be at peace besides
being prepared for war? The sinews of war were not
men only, but money also. Now last year there was a
deficiency of something like 2,000,0001., and this year
we were told that we should barely meet our expenses.
Were we not, then, by maintaining this large military
establishment, incurring another, that of being unable
from our financial resources to meet the exigency of a
war? Let them remember the breaking down of the
efforts of the Minister to increase the income-tax.
From the earliest records it would be found that every
revolution had arisen from the people being overbur-
dened by taxation. There had been one novelty
introduced into this debate—it had been said that
although the Government had been extravagant,
it had not been worse than many railway companies.—
(Laughter.) If they analyzed more strictly the conduct
of the railway directors, he believed it would be found
that they had been influenced by an insane apprehension
of foreign invasion, by competing companies—and in
order to resist them they had expended all their re-
sources. So we, from as ill-founded an apprehension of
foreign invasion, were about to waste all our resources.
But from what quarter was this invasion to be feared?
From France, and France only. He regretted to hear
the Hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) express his fear of
a French invasion; and equally did he regret to hear
him draw a contrast between what he called the Man-
chester school—meaning the manufacturing interest—
and the agricultural community. If there was any dan-
ger more to be feared than another in this country, it
was an attempt to divide the people into distinct and con-
flicting classes.—(Hear.) On a late occasion—and he felt
it most deeply—a bitter and most marked division was
made, as between class and class—which, if it were to suc-
ceed, would be most fetal to socit ty, and resolve it into a
state of ruin and confusion. No country could prosper
with a landed, a commercial, and a manufacturing popu-
lation not acting in unison one with another. An import-
tent fact had been communicated to him by a French
gentleman long resident in this country in connexion
with the French diplomatic department. He stated as
a proof of the indisposition of the French people to go
to war, that at the end of the seventeen years of Louis
Philippe's reign the price of a substitute for the con-
scription was double that which had to be paid at the be-
ginning of his reign. Unfortunately we heel gone too
far in regarding France our natural enemy. Those who
lived neareA to us were, he conceived, naturally our
friends, neighbours, and allies. Fe belonged neither to
the Manchester school nor to the Liverpool Finance As.
aviation ; but certainly he did look forward to com-
merce as the means of promoting general peace through-
out Early; though he did not regard any other inte-
rest inimical to peace ; and least of all did ho look upon

France as our enemy. He trusted she never would be.
—(Cheers.) Ile re membered being especially pleased
with some fine lines of our admirable poet Shakspere,
waich might be most aperoPriately quoted in relation to
this subject :
" God, the best maker of all marriages,
Combine your hearts in one, your realms in one!
As man and wife, being two, are one in love,
So be there 'twixt your kingdoms such a spousal
That never may ill office, or fell jealousy,
Which troubles oft the bed of blessed marriage,
Thrust in between the pactions of these kingdoms,
To make divorce of their incorporate league;
That English may as French, French Englishmen,
Receive each other! God speak this Amen!"
—(Cheers.)
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND, in explanation, said
that he did not intend to express any apprehension of
the probability of a French invasion; nor had he drawn
any contrast between the. manufacturing and agricultural
interests. He felt convinced that it would be a very
great evil if any su •h contrast existed.
Mr. V. SMITH believed it was the wish of her
Majesty's Ministers that the estimates should be dis-
cussed by the House ; for all the applications made to
them were for an increase of the estimates, and unless
they could reply that any proposal of that tendency
would meet with opposition in the House of Commons,
they were left entirely without any answer to such &ap-
plications. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Matile)
had laid down the question of colonial protection most
broadly, as if any amount of military expense might be
justified upon that ground. But colonial protection
stood upon different feting from wl at it formerly did.
Having applied the doctrine of Ire.. trade to your colonies,
there no longer existed the necessity of extending mili-
tary protection to those colonies ou commercial grounds.
Still he (Mr. V. Sn ith) considered it necessary to main-
tain garrisons in some of the colonies for the purposes of
war, and the question was. what were the cektpliein
which such garrisons should be maintained ? The ere
bound, he conceived, to protect those that were planted by
British subjects from invasion and from the incursions
of the aborigines; but this obligation ceased as soon as
the colonists were able to protect themselves. In rela-
tion to our great North American provinces, there oc-
curred a question which it was the duty of Ministers
seriously to consider. The powers of self-government
had been conferred upon them, ned from that moment
the necessity of extending protection to them ceased.
Whenever circumstances arose—and it was a case which
we must contemplate—which should place those pro-
vinces in antagonism with this country, we must look
forward to the question of separation.—(Hear,
hear.) He
would therefore advise the Government to anticipate that
event, by adopting measures that should make the sepa-
ration an amicable one, and not, the result of force.
Were the Canadas to be invaded by the United States it
would be impossible for this country to send out troops
to protect them. The Colonial Minister should, there-
fore look forward to this question. At present the colo-
nists of Now Zealand required protection against the
aboriginal inhabitants, but that was not the case with
Australia. The Right Hon. Gentleman expressed his
disapproval of sending convicts to our colonies, espe-
cially to those colonies to which honest and pure-minded
men were invited to emigrate. He then adverted to the
want of information by the House on all colonial sub-
jects until very heavy expenses were incurred. Such
was the case in the instance of the Kafir war; so, also,
with regard to the extension of the colony of Natal, end
to the establishment of a colonial Government in the
island of Labuan, under Sir James Brooke. There were
only two cures for these things; the one was to require
the colonists to protect themselves, and the other was
that her Majesty should be advised by her Ministers,
whenever she intended to extend her colonial territories
or to found new colonies, to send down a message to
Parliament stating that such things were about to be
done, and setting forth how much money would be re-
quired to carry them into execution. Considering, how-
ever, that due notice should be given to those colonies
which were hereafter to protect themselves, before re-
quiring them to do so, he could nut vote for the amend-
ment now proposed.
Mr. RICE agreed with much that had fallen from the
Right Hon. Member fur Northampton (Mr. V. Smith)
with respect to self-government in the colonies. But
it ought not to be forgotten that the whole tendency of
the policy of Government was to give the colonies self-
government.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Rice) believed
that when that system was carried out the House would
not need to vote the same number of men as at present
for the purpose of protecting the colonies. But the
House must decide that great question first.—(hear,
hear.) He assured the Hon. Member for Montrose that
military gentlemen were as anxious for all practicable
reduction in the expenses of the army as the Hon. Gen-
tleman himself was ; but he (Mr. Rice) for one would
not, for the sake of giving a popular vote, vote for a re-
duction which he knew to be impracticable. He felt in
the same way with reference to the blockade on the coast
of Africa. He was favourable to the removal of that
blockade, and, if the Government were not able to give
a better reason for its continuance than he had yet
heard, he was prepared to vote against it; but he was not
prepared to vote for a reduction of the number of men in
the navy if it could be shown that the Government were
called upon by the existing state of things to maintain a
force there. When these questions were settled the num-
ber of men both in the army and navy might probably
be safely reduced. But until they were settled he would
not vote for a reduction.
Captain BOLI)ERO remarked, that the Right Hon.
Member for Northampton had talked of the necessity of
a reduction of the military torte in the colonies; but
what was the actual condition of the colonies at this mo-
ment? Could C..iylon do without troosia?—alear, hear.)
Could it be pretended that the West Indies cou'd do
without troops ;n their present diecontented state, or
that they would be justified in withdrawing their troops
too,f r
otf.hteheCca,onti:da
dits?ioT7(c,flltehs, hear.)
erCape They
of
Good ar a
l%
ico e.ll aTwhaerse,;
things arose from the system of mis-government which
prevailed throughout our whole colonies.—(Hear, hear.)
If the Government changed their system, and should
succeed in making the people contented and satisfied, he
admitted that then they might safely withdraw a large
body of these troops.—(Hear, hear.) But there were cer-
tain colonies in which they were compelled to keep a
large force. The events that were occurring in Europe
compelled them to do it. Take Gibraltar, for example,
or Malta, in both of which places we were obliged to
have large forces.—(Hear.) Then there were the Greek
islands. We were put in possession of the lonian islands
by the Greeks themselves, upon the understanding that
we should give them military protection, and, having got
possession of those islands upon that understanding, we
could not now withdraw our promised protection without
a breach of faith.—(Hear, hear.) If the amendment of
the Hon. Member for Montrose were carried, what would
be the result? The scale which had been laid down with
respect to the length of colonial service would have to be
altered. Hitherto, the colonial duty had pressed upon
our troops in a most unpardonable and unwarrantable
manner. He knew a regiment that had been 23 years in
the East Indies; it was then 13 years at the Cape and
Mauritius, and had been nine years in Eneland. It was
at present, however, under orders to return to the East
Indies, where it would have to remain for 15 years. So
that out of 60 years it would only have spent nine
years in England. That was our colonial system.
A new regulation had been made, limiting the length of
service in our colonies; but it -the Hon. Member's
amendment were carded it would be impossible to carry
that regulation into effect. It would therefore occasion
a breach of feels with the soldier.—(Hear, hear.) The
I-lon. and Learned Member for the city of Oxford had
objected to class legislation. No man disliked class
legislation more than himself (Captain Boldero), but he
would ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had
begun it?
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that his Hon. Friend
the Member for Montrose had proposed to return to the
establishment of 1835, and to make a reduction of 14,000
men in the force of the army.
Could this reduction be
made without injury to the interests of the empire?
Were the number of soldiers excessive either at home or
abroad? At home the force was 61,000, or 11,500 men
more than in 1835. Was that force too great? When he
remembered the events of last year in Ireland; when he
considered that they had to provide reliefs and reinforce-
ments for 28,000 troops in India, and to supply the
places of those brave men who had been led on to unne-
cessary slaughter by rash and incompetent generals;
when he considered that they had likewise to
provide reliefs for 32,000 British troops in the
colonies; that the services of those troops were of' the
most arduous and disagreeable kind; for instance, bush
fighting and cattle driving at the Cape, guarding convicts
in Australia, and combating savages in New Zealand.
When he considered that some of these troops were sta-
, tinned amidst the snows of Canada, and others were
broiling in the Went Indies, he must acknowledge that
it would be cruel and unjust to compel these men to pass
more than halt their lives in such inglorious services.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not, therefore, at present vote
for a reduction of the military force at home, which
would tend to the prolongation of the period of military
services in the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) He should,
However, vote for a reduction of the force in the colonies,
othnetphreesgernotunfdorteheatwiofutlhd be
eywaerareppier.fr Hear, hear.) Atly governed half
present the force in the colonies consisted of 32,000
2,500 men on the establishment
anß erritiisnhteraosoeps,
of
abandloou,ot 00 men of colonial corps, making
in all 42,000 men, exclusive of artillery and engineers,
of 1835. These troops, including artillery, &c.,
cost the country about 2,500,0001. a year.—
(Hear.) He should first propose to reduce the
'ore° on our military stations, which. amounted to about
22,000 men. He
,should begin with withdrawing the
troops fro m the lonian Islands. lie denied that Great
Britain was bound either by treaties with the great
p
powers of Europe, or by convention with the lonian
States to keep any specific number of troops in those
islands. But he considered that the lonian States were
bound by convention to pay the expenses of all British
had
troopbteienn aboteoxucteetdhiengavtehrg
eaneunmubmebrorofo3f,OtOroOomees in those. which
islands. It would have been impossible for the lonian
States to fu' 01 this agreement. It would have required
a larger suns than their whole revenue. Time after time
fresh agreements had been made with them for smaller
and smaller contributions on account of military protec-
tion ; those agreements had never been fulfilled for any
considerable period of tirce.—(near, hear.) At present
they were upwards of 200,0001. in arrear ; it was but
fair, however, to state that they had paid since 1816 not
less than 800,0001. for military protection, a sum enor-
mous in proportiun to the population of these islands,
which did net exceed 220,000; enormous in proportion to
their revenue, which amounted to about 150,0001. a-year,
In addition to that 800,0001. Great Britain had expended
since 1816 at least 4,000,0001. on these islands, to which
the export trade did not exceed 95,0001. a year on the
average of the last twenty years. If, instead of annually
expending 120,0001. a year on troops for those islands,
that money bad been annually laid by and permitted to
accumulate, by this time the accumulations weuld have
been sufficient to pay the expense of conquering those
i islands twenty times over, if it were necessary to do 59.

But the best mode for a Government to lay money by
was to leave it to fructify in the pockets of the people
by diminishing taxation.—(lioar, hear.) Therefore, he
proposed to e-%ithdraw the trio s from the lonian Islands
and to exempt the States from %ny further contribution
(fl account of military prot,ction; for so doing they
would bless that house, nod, by so doing, that House
might reduce 3,000 men. Next he proposed a reduction
in the military force at the Cape of Good Hope: the
year before last that force consisted of nine regi-

wilts; last year it consisted of six regiments, in
ail above 5,000 men, including a colonial corps, but
exclusive of artillery and erginsers. He doubted
whether such a force, including artillery, &c.. could be
maintained at the Cape for less than 500,0001. a year.
He acknowledged at once that if the British empire in
South Africa was to be maintained according to the
boundaries fixed by Sir H. Smith, and those boundaries
wire to be protected azainst the ineursionr, of savages,
then ere long twice 5,000 solliers and an annual expen-
diture of 1,000,0001. sterling would be required. But
he proposed to withdraw the British troops; to let the
Boers take care of themselves; to let the colonists ma-
nage their own affairs; and merely to keep a garrison of
1,000 men at Cape Town. He warned the House that
if they did not follow his advice they would have, in ad-

dition to the ordinary military expenditure of about half
a million a year, to vote ever; few years a few millions
on account of Kafir and Zoolah wars. He therefore
proposed to make a reduction of 4,000 men in the mili-
tary force of the Cape of Good Hope.—(Hear, hear.)
Next, with regard to Ceylon. At present the military
force in that colony amounted to 4,000 men, including
colonial corps. A portion of the expense of that force
had been defrayed by the colony—a burden they
were anxious to transfer to the Imperial Treasury.
Without doubt, if that colony continued to be adminis-
tered as it had been by- the Colonial-office, 4,000 troops
were not too many to keep down the natives; and this
country must make up its mind to pay the whole ex-
pense of those troops. Now, he must reluctantly confess
that, after the signal failure of so distinguished and en-
lightened a statesman as the present Secretary of State
for the Colonies, there could be no hope that Ceylon
_ .

would ever be well governed by the Colonial-office. He
therefore proposed to transfer it, and the payment of the
troops, to the East India Company; and by so doing he
would give the means of reducing the vote before the
House by another 4,000 men.—(Hear, hear.) Thus
by withdrawing 3,000 men from the lonian Islands,
4,000 from the Cape, and transfering the 4,000 men
of Ceylon to the East India Company, he would effect
a reduction in the force on the military stations to the
amount of 11,000 men. Next, with regard to the
commercial colonies. He agreed with his Hon. Friend
the Member for Montrose, in asking where was the use
of 9,000 men in North America, 6,000 of whom were in
the Canadas ? These troops cost the country about
700,000/ a year. Now, since the establishment of re-
sponsible government the Canadas had become virtually
independent. It seemed to him to be as absurd to pay
for troops in the virtually independent colony of Canada
as it would be to pay the military establishments of the
independent colony of the United States.—(Hear, hear.)
He should propose, however, for the present to keep
garrisons at Quebec and Halifax, and would therefore
merely propose a reduction of 5,000 in the military
force of the North American colonies.—(Hear.) Of the
West Indies, which contained 6,000 troops, he should say
nothing at present. He had proposed last year to reduce
the force in those colonies by 3,000 men ; and he still
held the opinion that such a reduction ought to be
made. Lastly, in Australia and New Zealand there
were about 5,000 troops. Not one soldier was required
in Australia, except on account of convicts. There was
literally no one to fight with. It might be true that, in
consequence of Colonial-office mismanagement, troops
might for some time longer be required in New Zea-
hnd ; and on this account chiefly he should propose to
leave 3,000 men in the Australian colonies.—(Hear,
hear.) Thus he believed that, without any detriment to
the real interests of the empire, the force in the colo-
nies might be reduced from 42,000 men to less than
22,000, with a saying to the empire in military expen-
diture alone of above 1,000,0001. a year. If this reduction
were made in the force on foreign stations, then, as the
number of troops to be retained would be much dimi-
nished, the question might be entertained of reducing
the military force at home. He would not trouble
the House with inquiring at present to what extent
that force might then be reduced, but he would con-
clude with saying that, for the reasons which he had
stated, he would cordially vote for the motion of his
Hon. Friend.

Mr. W. S. CRAWFORD would not go into the ques-
tion respecting the reduction of troops in the colonies;
but he would support the motion of his Hon. Friend the
Nlember for Montrose, on the ground that the number
of troops at present-maintained in the United Kingdom
was unnecessary and improper. He understood the
Secretary at War to say that 52,000 men were required
to protect the United Kingdom. In his (Mr. Crawford's)
view, it was inconsistent with a free constitution that a
standing army of that extent should be maintained to
keep in subjection a free people. It seemed to him a
proof of misgovernment.—(Hear.) If they extended the
franchise and pursued a system of . just legislation, then
the army might be reduced, but all efforts in that direc-
tion would be vain till the people regarded the Govern-
ment not as their oppressors, but as their friends.
Mr. COBDEN said he had been delighted to hear the
tendency of the remarks of Honourable Members
during the discussion, and by the constant allusion~
which had been mad, to the colonies, fur he believed
they were the pivot on which the whole system ot' re
trenchtnent turned. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary-at-War had alluded to something he (Mr. Cob-
den) had stated on a former occasion with resptet to our
troops in Canads. What ho said was, that beforo the
rebellion in that colony we had only 4,000 men there, but
that they had been augmented on the breaking cut of the
rebellion, and, as had ucc,:rted in all similar c ices, had
not since been reduced. Their numbers were iiiet
double now of what they had been before the rebellion,
and that was a sufficient argument to show that in all
cases where an augmentation of cur establishment took
place by sea or by land, we, never went back to
the numbers before the augmentation became neces-
sary. They were told that the troops were rt quired on
account of our domestic condition. He must confess he
had heard with very great regret the remarks of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at •War, with
respect to the necessity of keeping troops at home for
the purpose of keeping down the people. That was the
first time such an object had ever been avowed by any
member of any Government, for it had hitherto been
always denied that troops were kept to repress the
people.—(Oh, oh.) It was a very alarming and melan-
choly state of things that it should ,be avowed in 1849
that we kept up a large force to keep down the people
of England—Englishmen, who had been always
considered peculiarly suited for self-government here or
abroad, and who had always claimed the principle of
being governed by the civil power.—(Cries of " Oh,oh!")
The Right llonourable Gentleman distinctly avowed
that object. He said it was for the puipose of keeping
peace among the people. Some remarks had been made
as to the state of the manufacturing towns. He
admitted that the mayors and magistrates of some
large towns had sent for some troops last year, but there
must be some fault in the system when such a rein-
forcement to the civil power was called for. He
thought, on behalf of the middle classes, that those who
were responsible for the government of the country
should introduce some large measure with respect to the
working classes, to bring the two into harmony, and that
they should, by bringing the latter within the pale of
the constitution, take away the disaffection and discon-
tent which induced the necessity for employing troops.
With respect to the immediate vote before the House, it
must be borne in mind that troops had become really
fetich more efficient than they had been a few years
ago. A great authority—General Gordon—stated to
the Committee of 1844 that one thousand
men could be sent from London to Manchester
in nine hours, and would arrive there fresh as when they
started; whereas, before the introduction of railways,
they would have taken 17 days for the journey, and
would have arrived fatigued and exhausted. Though he
did not admit the necessity of repressing the people by
armed men, railways had given tenfold force to their
military establishments, and if they were necessary the
number of men might be reduced, and yet the same
amount of force be available. He maintained, howevei,
that in large or small towns peace might be maintained
by the civil power, if Government would sanction a
mode by which an organized body—not of military or of
national guards—but of special constables, could be al-
ways in readiness to assist the magistrates. Why not
imitate America? New York was larger than Liverpool,
and yet there were neither soldiers nor barracks there,
and the peace was kept by the police. There was a
fluctuating population of English, Irish, and foreigners,
and he contended that what could be done at New
York with Englishmen could be done with English-
men at home. The Honourable Member for West
Surrey (Mr. Drummond) had made some remarks which
he would not have referred to but that they might pro-
duce ill feelings elsewhere. The Hon. Member had
, called the French tigers and monkeys, fit for exhibition
ninot ZoologicalkthenOw th
nt t
he Gardens.iion. Gentleman
Perhaps the French a
Frenperhivimleiggehdt
Member of the House, and that ho was so fickle in his
aversions and likings that they might find him next
week calling them doves and lambs. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary at War referred to the state of
the continent as a reason for a large standing army.
lie would admit, if the Right Hon. Gentleman pleased,
that the French and the other continental cations were
going to fight with each other. But that was not the
question for us to consider with respect to our forces.
What we had to ask was, if anybody was coming to fight
with us? Was there a symptom or a tendency of such
a disposition on the continent? Such being the case,
and having no enemy he knew of to dread, he thought
there was no necessity for keeping up a larger military
establishment than had been found necessary in 1835 and
1836.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for the West Riding, who has just spoken, has
mentioned two points with respect to the estimates, the
firet with respect to the forces in Canada; the second
with respect to the forces in this country. As regards
our forces in Canada, it may be quite true that they are
nearly double as great in amount as they were previous
to the breaking out of the rebellion in that province;
but I must say that when that rebellion broko out in
Canada, I could not help being somewhat uneasy on ac
count of the smallness of the force we had stationed
there.—(Hear, hear.) Those forces, however, behaved
with very great intrepidity; the rebels were not well
organized, and certainly did not make such a re-
f
the rebellion was happily put down ; but I should
abeend beyx pteucot e db
r; a
raenr
yd
ob yf
ourth the skilltro troops,
osbiuesrtvacneQreyme nasao:rnrdyhe,ardswell disposed as Canada is at pre-
sent, to see any great diminution of the forces sta-
tioned in that country.—(Hear, hear.) As to other of
our colonies, certainly there may be some in which re-
duction may be made from time to time in the number
of our troops ; but I think the force in our colonies is
less than it was in 1835,—(iiear, hear.) The next point

on which the Hon. Gentleman touched requires much
more comment. Tile Hon. Gentleman objected to what
he called the system of using troops to keep down
the peor,le, and said that the principle had been for
the first time avowed by my Right Hon. Friend the
Secretary-et-War (Mr. F. Mettle). Now I heard what
my Right Hon. Friend said, and I certainly heard no-
thing from him to such an effect.—(Cheers.) My Right
Honourable Friend stated most truly that during the
past year there had been many applications—the greater
part of them from the mercantile towns—not by the
military, but by the civil authorities, for troops to pre•
serve peace and order.—(Hear, hear.) But were
those troops to keep down the people ?—(Hear, hear.)
By no means. They were to keep down a certain
number of ill-conditioned and disaffected persons who
wished to commit disorder, to promote tumult, and pro-
ha.bly to gain an opportunity for plunder, and with whom
it is a libel and a calumny to confound the people of this
country.—(Great cheering.) Thu Hon. Gentleman
asked why should not the municipal authorities have
power to embody special constables to keep the peace?
They are at full liberty to do so, and may swear in special
constables to morrow if they please, but it is after they
have sworn them in, and wish to support them, that they
make application for the military is order to enable the
special constables to do their duty. In fact, the state of
society has changed from the time when every man was
ready to arm himself, and to go out into the etreels to
keep the peace of the town. The great mass of the
people in towns aro now accustomed to follow peaceable
oscupations, and to look to other forces to enable the
peace of the town to be kept, and if you refuse them all
military assistance, and if they were to be harassed week
after week, and night after night, by being called out
to do the duty of special constables, it would give rise to
great discontent, and to numerous complaints of the
Government of the country.—(Cheers.) In effset, there-
tore, when we call in the troops under such circumstanc..s,
it is not to keep down the people, but to defend the ma-
jority from the minority—(Hear, hear)—and to protect
the great mass of the well-affected against the smaller
number of the turbulent—persons not well contented,
and boys, and others very often hardly connected with
the towns, but who, if there was not some assistance
given to preserve order, would not only be very mis-
chievous, but commit serious injuries on private property.
—(Hear, hear.) I thought it necessary to defend my
Right Hon. Friend, and not only this Government but
the general government of the country, from the
statements of the Honourable Gentleman. (Hear,
hear.) Nothing can be more unfounded than
the statement that the military force of this country
is maintained to keep down the people, and I am
very sorry that the Hon. Gentleman, knowing as he
must do the history of his country, should have lent his
authority to assertions which, if generally believed,
could do nothing but mischief among the people.—(Loud
cheers.) The Hon. Baronet who addressed the House
(Sir W. Moiesworth) pointed out many instances among
our colonies where a reduction might be made in the
number of troops, and referred, among others, to the case
of the lonian Islands, where he said the force might be
very greatly reduced.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
some of these there may be instances where too great a
number of troops are maintained, but I am quite sure my
Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies watches
anxiously for every opportunity by which he may reduce
the troops, when practicable. I really think,. however.
when the lion. Baronet made these remarks the object
he had in view was different from the object of the Go-
vernment. We are in possession of a great empire, which
has been transmitted to us by our forefathers. The
Lion. Baronet only thinks of the way in which it may be
diminished. If you will only take away from what you
have, instead of occupying a larger territory—if
you will only withdraw your commanders and officers—
no doubt your military forces may be made very much
less, and, instead of 89,000, as proposed by the Hon.
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), you may reduce
them to 49,000 or 39,000.—(Cheers.) But then our ob-
jects are different. Ours is to maintain the empire we
have inherited from our ancestors in all its inteF,rity.—
(Cheers.) If once you say your object is to diminish it,
to make it smaller this year than it was the year before,
and take it away bit by bit, you may of course goon`
till you reduce it to the limits of this island.—(Cheer:.)
That may be an economical experiment, but it is not one
in which I should be willing to embark.—(Cheers.) My
belief is, if you give any signs of shrinking from your
duty of preserving the empire committed to your protec-
tion that though you may have no enemy now you would
find soon enough you had enemies vho would demand
something from you that you in honour could not grant,
and the result would be that instead of such estimates
as those before you we should be obliged to ask for war
estimates.—(Loud Cheers.)
Mr. HITIIE complained that the Noble Lord had
not fairly represented his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden).
If the colonies got liberal institutions they would not re-
quire troops.
The Committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment .. 40
Against it
Majority

The vote was then agreed to.
F. MAITLE übserved, that the Ordnance esti-
mates were now under the consideration of a Committee
up stairs; but in the meantime it was necessary to have
votes on account to carry on the public service, lie
proposed at present to take a vote for one-half the sum
on each item, and moved that 1,800,0001. be ;;ranted to
her Majesty to defray the charge of the land tomes.
Mr. HUME felt that the vote on which they had di-
vided wa hubic ant ill ly a vote for 7,000,0001. lie could
do no more than enter his protes; but he should not
object to the votes which the 'tight lion. Gentleman now
proposed to take.
C.:lontl DUNNE rose to call the attention of the

(rouse to the privilege grantud to oili,ers of rho
Guards of holding rank in the army stir.eri,r to tha, tit
otii.iers of corresponding regimental rank in regiments
of the line, the hewer:au-colonels an 1 majors in the
Guards being colonels in the army, and the captains,
iteut.auants, and ensigns, iieuftnant-coloneli, captains,
and lieutenants in the army respectively, and lurther,
to tali the attention of the I-loue to an ittgoiry whether
there was anything so peculiarly onerous in the antics ot
the household troops as to ju,tif)' the continuance of this
privilege-, which, by giving more rapid promotion to one
branch of the service, insured among other advantages
an undue proportion of general officers from these fa-
voured corps, to the disadvantage of officers who served
in regiments of the line in every part of the world. It
was necessary perhaps to explain that ensigns
in regiments of the Guards had the rank of
lieutenants in the navy—(Loud laughter)—he meant
in the army, in the regiments of the line; captains
in the Guards had the rank of lieutenant-colonels
and field-officers were full colonels on service.
Such a system was greatly to the detriment of officers
of regiments of the line, because officers of the Guards
became field officers after a short service, and were en-

• _ _
titled to: brevet' rank long before the officers of other
regiments. For example, Captain Harrison, one of the
officers of the 24th Regiment, which had suffered so
severely the other day, had served for 42 years on full
pay, and had but recently attained the rank of captain,
whereas in the Guards Colonel Stuart had become hen-
tenant-colonel in 18 years. The Hon. and Gallant
_ _

Member proceeded to adduce a variety of instancea in
which officers in the Guards had obtained promotion
atter a short service as compared with officers in regi-
ments of the line. Yet the captain in the Guards who
became a field officer had no more experience. than the
captain of a regiment of the line who did not become a
field officer. From calculations he had made, it ap-
peared that one in every five regiments was com-
manded by officers who had belonged to the Guards,
though, in proportion to their number, they
ought to command only one regiment in thirty;
and if the proportion of lieutenant-colonels maintained
in the Guards were to extend over the whole army, .
there would be 2,000 colonels altogether in the service.
Whilst expressing a hope that the matters to which he
had referred would become the subject of investigation
before the Committee on the Estimates, he wished to be
understood that it was far from his intention to depreciate
the character of either the officers or men of the Guards,
who had conducted themselves well wherever they had
been called upon to serve.—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. F. MAULE, after expressing the satisfaction he
felt at the manner in which the lion. and Gallant Mem-
ber had brought the subject forward, stated that it was
one which could not fail to come under the notice of the
Committee on the Estimates. Without intending to
enter into any discussion upon the present occasion, he
must be allowed so observe that he knew of many in.
stances in which officers who had exchanged into the
Guards from the line had not been promoted to the rank
of lieutenant-colonel as soon as they would have been
had they remained in the line. The testimony which
the Hon. and Gallant Officer had borne to the merits of
the Guards was fully justified by their conduct, whether
in war or peace.
Colonel LINDSAY, though. prepared to meet the
lion. and Gallant Member who had introduced this
topic, was willing to postpone discussion until the matter
should have been investigated by the Committee; and
he was convinced that the result of the inquiry would
satisfy all unprejudiced persons that the privileges en•
jcyed by the Guards were not as injurious to the liue as
was supposed in some quarters.
Mr. HUME said the privileges enjoyed by the Guards
were viewed with dissatisfaction by the rest of the ser-
vice.

- -: •
Sir H. VERNEY observed, that if the Guards pos-
sessed privileges they also laboured under disadvan-
tages; for instance, a c.marnission which could be pur-
chased in the line for 4001. or 500/. would cost 1,2001 in
the Guards.
An HoN. MEMBER declared, that whilst he had the
honour of serving in the line he never knew that any
feeling of jealousy was entertained by that branch of the
service against the Guards.—(Bear, hear:)
After a few words from Major BL CItALL the vote
was agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed te:---86,000/.
for the General Staff; excepting India ; 47,000/. tor the
Public Departments; 8,000!. for the Royal Military
Colle--e—[Mr. F. MAuLE stated that the new regula
tions'respectir.g eXaillillAtiOUS at this instituticn would
be laid upon the table as soon as they were agreed upon]
9,0001. for the Royal Military Asylum; 33,000/. for Vo•
lunteer Corps; 7,000/ for rewards for distinguished ser-
vices ; 39,000/. for the pay of general officers; a sum
of 28,0001. for the full-pay of retired officers; 2011,000/.
for half-pay and military allowances ; 22,000/, for fo-
reign half-pay ; 64,000/. for widows' pensions ; 48,000/.
for the Compassionate List ; 17,6001. for the Hospitals
at Chelsea and Kilmainham; 60,000/~ for the out-pen •
sioners.
On the last vote Mr. HUME wished to know the
number of out-pensioners who were enrolled ?
Mr. F. MAULS could not tell the exact number of
out-pensioners ; but.the number enrolled last year, con-
sisting of those above 45 years who were fit fot service,
was 20,000.

Mr. HUME inquired how many there were in Ireland?
Mr. F. MAULE said the number was 5,000.

Sir H. VERNEY inquired whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman had investigated the possibility of employ-

inn pensioners in subordinate situations, as carriers.
messengers, &c, in the public departments; and whether
I holding out such a prospect after a certain number of
years' service would not be a great inducement for good
men to enter the army and to behave well whilst they
were in it?
Mr. F. MULE said the lion. Baronet was perhaps
not aware of the number of pensioners who were already
employed in the public service on account of their having
been discharged with a good character. Many were
employed by private individuals, and every year he re-
ceived applications from pensioners to be exempt from
enrolment, on account of the 12 days' service which was
required interfering with the appointments they held.
As to the general question of holding oat the prospect
of small places to them as a reward of good service, it
was rather for the consideration of the Chrncellor of
the Exchequer than of the Secretary-at-War.
A vote of 19,000/. on account for superannuation al-
lowances was then agreed to.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WARD proposed to obtain votes for the excess in
the navy estimates.
Mr. HUME protested against proceeding with so im-
portant a matter at this time of night (twelve o'clock).
The House had voted 20,0001., the amount of the esti•
mate la-t year, for the expense for arming and enrolling
the artiz ins of the dockyards ; and the excess in this
item was no less then 52,000 L, the expenditure incurred
being 72,000/. He requested that this vote might be
postponed until Friday, in order that he might bring the
subj« ct before the House.
Sir F. BARING was understood to say that the votes
could not be postponed, but,
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP,
Mr. WARD consented to take a ♦ote on account, in
order that the Hon. Member for Montrose might have
the opportunity he ri quired.
Mr. S. HERBERT said he was anxious to set right
an error which he had inadvertently committed on Fri-
day night. when the navy estimates were last before the
House. lie had received a letter from Mr. Green, of
the firm of Wigram and Green, stating that he (Mr. S.
Herbert) was wrong in attributing the lines of their
vessels to any pereon but themselves. Mr. Green stated
that he had not borrowed the lines of the Inconstant for
any of their vessels, nor had he ever seen the lines of
that vessel.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Herbert) had
made the statement with the conviction, at the tin.;
that it was perfectly true. He had heard it from a naval
officer of distinction, who enjoyed the friene'ship of Ad-
miral Hayes; and he had heard the statement so fre-
quently asserted that he thought he was quite justified
in mentioning it. He was the more anxious to make this
correction as it was so greatly to the credit of Mr. Green
that he should build vessels that were liable to be taken
for m( n of-war..—(Hear, hear.)
A vote on account was then taken.
THE NAVIGATION LAWS.
Mr. GLADS TONE wished to know whether the
Noble Lord intended to go into Committee on the naviga-
tion-laws on Friday? He believed the report on the
resolutions in supply was fixed for that day, and there
was one vote en which some discussion might take place.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the resolutions in
supply appeared likely to lead to any long discussion, he
would postpone them and take the navigation•laws the
first thing.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered
to be received to-morrow (this day).
The Passengers Bill was read a second time and or-
dered to be committed.
LARCENY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
On the question that the Larceny Acts Amendment
Bill be read a second time,
Major BLACKALL said there was no reason for di-
minishing the punishment in cases of larceny merely on
the ground that the commission of such offences had
become more frequent than formerly. In conformity
with the wishes of some Hon. Members who represented
Irish constituencies he felt some desire that the present
stage of the Bill should be postponed.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Bill did not relate
exclusively to.lreland, but unfortunately transportable
offences had greatly increased in that part of the United
Kiusr,dom, and even in Great Britain they had rapidly
increased. It had really become necessary to make some
distinction between the lighter and the graver class of
offences.

Mr. MILES would not, at all events, vote against the
principle of a measure which had received so much con-
sideration elsewhere.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that such was the state
of Ireland that the punishment of imprisonment could
not be inflicted with any advantageous effect.
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed.
Mr. MAITLAND moved that the following Members
be the Committee on the Recistering Births, &c., and
Marriage Bills (Scotland): —The Lord Advocate, Sir G.
Clerk, the Earl of March, Sir Henry Davie. Mr. Elliot,
Sir David Dundee, Viscount Melgund, Mr. M•Neill,
Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Forbes Mac-
kenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr. Traill, Mr. Forbes,
Mr. Duncan, and Mr. Smollett.
Mr. LOCKHART objected to a Committee so selected,
on the ground that it contained no Members for any of
the principal cities or for any of the larger counties of
Scotland.
Mr. HUME hoped the Government would reconsider
the names prop, sod on this Committee. It was very
unusuil that the Lord- Advocate and the Solicitor• Gen-
eral stiould form a pat t of any C.orumitti,e upon a Bill so
touch objected to aS tHs mf.asure was in Scotland.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE observed, that the constitution
of the Committee was a coalition on which the Bill had
bet d to he read a see, nd time.
Mr. F. MAULE said • the L.,rd-Advocate had left
town on the und;:rstanding thst to. Committer, named
by his 11,,e. Frivint the 6.ln:hot-General for Scotland
wutt:il be assented to. Both tin. C-own law officers for
Scotland were named upon the Committee because it
was probable that they migi,t not be in town at the
same time, and it was uncet tale which of them would bo
able to attend.
Mr. HUME had no objection to both those officers
being pl,eed on the Gaul-nape it it was. understood that
only 'we of thorn should inr present at a time. He
Legged to move that the name of the Lord-Advocate be
omitted, and that of Mr. L. llastie substituted.
Alter a few words from Mr. DUNCAN,
'm 14,:use divided, when there w ere—
For Mr. Hume's amendment
Against it
Majority

G 9
-55

On the question that Mr. Elliott be a member of the
Committee,
Mr. LOCKHART proposed that the name of Mr.
Hastie be substituted.
Mr. HUME recommended the Hon. Gentleman, after
the result o' the previous division—(A laugh)—not to
press his amendment.
.Mr. WAWN complained that no Hon. Gentleman
connected with the Free Church of Scotland was placed
on the Committee.
Mr. F. MAULE would undertake to say that the
Free Church would be perfectly contented with the
Committee as proposed.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Com-
mittee, as proposed by the Solicitor. General for Scot-
land, was agreed to.
Oa the motion of Captain ARCHDALL, certain re-
turns relative to the salaries, emoluments, and fees of
clerks of the peace and clerks of the Crown in Ireland,
were ordered.
The House adjourned at One o'Clock.

DISCOVERY OP A CAVE ON THE SOUTH ELSTERII
RAlLwAY.—During the operation of the workmen on the
North Kent line of the South-Eastern Railway, when
tunnelling under the hanging woods at Charlton, near
Woolwich, they came upon a cave of considerable
dimensions cut in the chalk and flint rocks. A great
quantity of sand has fallen at one end, blocking up the
side from which it has apparently been entered, and the
workmen are now busily employed is shoring up a part
of the roof of one of the chambers, the railway passing
over its entire breadth. Four chambers have been dis-
covered, forming alternate recesses from the main cave,
leading in a westerly direction. The roof of the cave
is on a level with the line of railway, and the base about
twelve to fourteen' feet lower. The atmosphere in it
is remarkably dry and pure, and presents a strange con-
trast with the damp and close atmosphere experienced
in passing along the tunnel to the extremity where the
cave has been discovered. The men state they found a
knife and spoon on exploring it, and they turned their
discovery to good account on Sunday, having lighted the
whole of the tunnel with candles, and conducted visitors
over the cave at the extremity, charging them 3d. each
for admission.
The Animals' Friend Society, of 457,
last week charged Thomas Odell. carman to Dina.fork Court, be-
foreot' No. G 2, Cornwall-road, at thekt:;o
d ua
horse which had
Wo
_estSstrtuainthd:
Mr. Seeker,
waggon, the collar chafing • lie was fined 10s. sad costs,
a bleeding woun dw tot hn
aahings hwtobonerl d
woundser ina loaded
a s
th
e timber
p)poor
imprisonment.
Sheriff's Court, Mr. Commis-
Oa Saturday', in
gave judgment in the case of " iant v.
the
oarntinl-taldpayrestsed against it.
The facts of the case are these: In July last
Lamond•" lshares of the
laintiff bought several Northern Counties
iPud South Yorkshire, Doticas.,Lr and Goole Railwaiss
Fioner Bullock
which were put up to auction at the Hall of Cora-
-1 /Delve, defendant being the auctioneer; bat the latter
would not give them up unless all the calls due upon
them were paid up, considering that he aas bound to
see them paid and duly rogiateren. On the contrary,
it was urged by Mr. Clarke, of Featherstone-buildings
(the plaintiff's attorney), that the plaintiff had com-
plied with the conditions of sate by put fug the amount
of the hid, and tendering the amount or the transfer;
and further, that the purchaser was entitled to pay up
the calls himself, and the broker was not responsible, as,
by a late decision of the Vice.Chancrllor, no shareholder
could evade his liability. His Honour considered there
had been no forfeiture of the shares by not paying up
the calls after the sale, and fonnd for the plaintiff for
131. 10s., the amount paid; but a second action for da-
inuAeo, for the detention of the shares, after a very long
consideration, could not be sustained, after the plaintiff
had recovered in the first action the amount paid.
lllsnooLeritic TyrEs.—The National Printing-
office of France has just published a work entitled
" Chronology of the Kings of Egypt,"
by Lesueur. This
is the first book in which the new hieroglyphic types of
that establishment have been used at any length. They
are said to be extremely delicate and beautiful—very su-
perior to anything put forth by the English or German
presses. The work is also the first bearing the new
formula used under the Republic to distinguish a book
printed at the cost of the Government.—Athenctun.
DvATH OP EARL FITZWILLIABeeI CHIMPANZEE.—
This rare animal died at Wentworth House, during the
menagerie,
night of Monday week. " was brought
to
thisd "
rico, an presented
by Captain Challoner, from
.ethseddition to his
chimpanzee would not
to
thiits
exist long in this variable climate, even ;
storndsbheicpamasea
evidentvaluab valuable
with the greatest
care and attention to diet, U.