The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-13 00:00:00

**Jinn ; nay, he has gone tvett btlyeind this, for lie has told
tis, too, that the whot.e a them have originated from pro-
posals corn* ll'ons his side of the House. Now, Sir,
rest may that Ido not recollect any single question pro-
posed by that side of the House that has reference to any
Pste of these alterations now brought fat ward by my Noble
"Friend.—(Hear, hear.) I know that in the debate that
took place last session, all sorts of arguments were made
use of, all sorts of suggestions were thrown our, and all
sorts of reason., wherever they could he scraped up, were
urged against the Bill—(A laugh)—but I do not recollect
that we ever had an opportunity—though the Right lion.
Gentleman says that we had—of adopting this vast variety
of improvements. The Right Hon. Gentleman has then
gone on to observe, that of course all these alterations must
he considered as improvements by his Majesty's Govern.
ment, or we should not have offered them to the adoption of
he House. Undoubtcdly,Sir, we do look upon all of them, or
very nearly all of them, as improvements ; but at the same
time, I have a right to remark that where objections have
been made that did not seem to involve points of any ma-
terial consequence, it seemed to us wise to adopt them in
the spirit of conciliation. But, surely, whether we have
made these alterations in the spirit of imprevement, or in
the spirit of conciliation, the Right Hon. Gentleman's
taunts came with a very ill grace from him •,----(Lourl
cheers.) And let me ask him would it have been Eke the
conduct of men with sine minds, had we, when there
was time for consideration, not applied ourselves to tla
endeavour of improving, in so important a measure, in
every possible way? But, Sir, after alb Tvhat are these
wonderful alterations that have eo highly gratified and de-
lighted the Right Hon, Genti.thaan ? Why, the Right
Hon. Gentleman says that we have given up the Commis.
sinners. So we have : but this was a necessary conse-
quence, now that the Commissioners have made their in-
quiry.—(llear, hear.) It was always stated as disadvan.
tageous that we were obliged to leave the question of j
boundaries to their decision ; and, therefore, now that we
have been abte to meet this difhetilty, I do hot exactly see
where is the ground lot the Right Mon. Gentleman's
triumph.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, !le then went on to allude
to the borough, in sehe4ul A, and to congratulate hi*
friends on the escape they- hail had. And what was this
escape ? Why, Iltat there were still to he retained fifty-
one borough)) r,ut of the fifty-six ; and, therefore, whether
this •It'rat.',on 'was an advantage or a disadvantage, it was
""r1; not a thing in which the Right Hon. Gentleman
`:.3gl: to congratulate himself as affording sn happy at,
escape.—(Hear, hear.) As to the change in the 101.
franchise, the Right Hon. Gentleman has himself said that
he sees no greut difference in it ; and, in that respect, to
is correct ; for I have no doubt that the practical effect
will be the same; so that the opponents of the measure
have no great escape there. And yet, after all, these are
the only points on which the Right Hon. Gentleman has
congratulated himself and his patty. I confess lam glari
of it; for it pltinly shows me that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman is fully aware that the principles of the Bill really
remain the same, and that those very points which, dur-
ing the last session, occasioned the warmest discussion
have undergone no alteration.

Mr. CROKER—The Noble Lord who has introduced
this Bill again to the notice of the House has stated that
the alterations that have been made owe their origin, not
to any question of conciliation, or for the purpose of giving
way either to the clamours or the perseverance of gentle
men on this side of the House; hut, on the contrary, fa,
the purpose of preventing the injustice and curing the im-
proprieties that ought never to have been admitted into the
late Bill. Now, after this statement, I beg to recal to tht
teculltction of the House what took place last session.
then torte the liberty of opposing the second reading of the
httause I believed that I saw in it principles that
\vokild prove dangerous to good government, and because
could not find in its details any adequate compensation fat
that danger—l opposed it, Sir, because I thought I per-
ceived i❑ it an attempt to shake the Constitution to its
very foundation, or—to use the phrase made use of by a
Noble Lord on that occasion—to leave neither tag not
a shred of the Constitution behind. But, though these
were the causes that determined me to give my most de-
cided opposition to the measure, I left my general objec-
tions to the principle of it at the door of the Committee,
and endeavoured to apply to the details of the Bill the
principle of the Bill itself, so that, in the event of its pass-
ing, it might at all events be as perfect in its provisions a►
was possible. The first complaint that I made in the
Committee was, that the Noble Lord -had mistook and
tnisunderstcod the principle of the population of counties,
and that he had confounded the population of parishes and
towns. I was not singular in this view; for, besides
many Honourable Friends of mine who agreed with me,
there were several independent gentlemen in different
parts of the House who concurred in the position that I
laid down. I took occasion at that time to tell him, that
its operation would be what I then called, and what he
now admits to be injustice. But did he, in consequence of
my representations, change these provisions of the Bill ?
No; he then persisted in adhering to what he now calls
erroneous, and the result was the passing of a Bill, which
be justly sari has been characteri,ed as monstrous.

Lord J. RUSSELL—I did not say that it was justly
termed monstrous.

Mr. CROKER—No, the Noble Lord did not say that
it was justly so called ; but he stated that it had been
characterised with that epithet, and that he trusted that
that characteristic was now remedied. The Noble Lord
the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told ns, that be can-
not charge his memory with a single instance in whict
we brought to the test any of those improvements which
are now proposed in the present Bill\ hy his Majesty's Go-
vernment. But let me ask the Noble Lord if he does not
tetnetnher the vote on Aldborough, in Yorkshire—a mo-
tion concerning which was made on the very last night of
the Committee, and which was resisted by a large ma-
jority, though I have no doubt that there is just as large
a majority present to-night ready to vote exactly the other
way ? Let me also ask the Noble Lord, whether he was
not told that the principle which he was applying to
Northallerten was false, and whether our advice on that
point was not rejected ? And yet now we find that North-
allerton is placed in that schedule which we recommended.
—(Cheers ) Let me ask the Noble Lord, did he never
hear of 'Alorpeth ? Did he never hear of Caine ? Does
he not remember that he was told that to Dorchester and
to Guilford ha was applying the strict borough rule, while
he was allowing Caine and Nortliallerton to return their
full number, not because these boroughs in themselves were
sufficiently populous to justify the claim, but because
they were made so by the addition of adjoining pa-
rishes ? So far, then, from agreeing with the Noble
Lord in what he has stated, I beg to state that 1
do not remember a single point, as far as schedules
A and B are concerned, that was brought to a division in
the Committee, which had not been conceded in this new
Bill._(Hear, hear.) As to the debate being adjourned
to the second reading, I am perfectly content that that ar-
rangement should be adopted; but I beg to say that my
great objection is, as it ever has been, to the principle of
the Bill ; and unless, therefore, I see a great alteration in
the mode in which the Bill is to operate, my objection
will be quite as strong as it ever has been. lam ready
to admit that improvements may make the Bill more per-
fect in itself; and, indeed that was the very point which
I was desirous of enforcing on the attention of the Noble
Lot d when the late Btll was in Committee ; but though
this is true, the very height of perfection in its machinery
will not be sufficient to reconcile me to the Bill itself. Be-
fore I sit down, I beg to ask the Noble Lord when we are
likely to have laid on the table of the House the very im-
portant information that be mentioned in the course of his
speech ? I myself have prepared a motion for the produc-
tion of such information as I deemed necessary ; but as I
am bound to believe, after what has fallen from the Noble
Lead, that he will supply the desired documents, and pro.
hably in a better shape than I could propose, I shall post.
pone my motion till I have in my hand the information
which the Noble Lord offers, and which I hope will be
laid on the table sufficiently early to leave time for me or
any other Member to move for further papers, should we
i
find theinformation produced by the Noble Lord inade-
quate to the objects we have in view.
The Marquis of CHANDOS—Whatever may be my
opinion on this important question, I cannot but lament
that circumstances have not permitted it to be viewed
in a different light from that which has hitherto been the
case. I particularly wish that
more conciliation may be
shown on both sides, knowing that in other quarters it is
likely that it may meet with a very different reception.
Still I cannot give up the hope that the Bill may pass
both Houses of Parliament in such a shape as to give
satisfaction to the country at large, and nor, as now,
solely advocated by one party; though I am ready to ad-
mit that party is a large one. I hold myself more called
upon to snake these observations, because I feel that this
House of Commons is deliberating at a moment when there
are other Houses of Parliament assembled in this country
--(Hear, hear)—which have had, and still have a power,
which, in my opinion, none but the Commons of England
ought to
possess.—(Cheers.) I therefore trust that be-
fore we deliberate further on the subject, a few days will
be allowed to elapse previous to the secorul reading, and
that will be spent by both lodes m endeavouring to
conciliate and meet the views of each other. For myself
I am bound to say that there still are many points in the
Bill to which I have the strongest objection. There
is one in particular, which I cannot take too early an op-
portunity of mentioning—l mean that provision
.which
proposes to grant fresh Metropolitan Members to this city