The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-04 00:00:00

h. y fees.—(Hear.) It was of the greatest importance
to tee country to encourage Meunier societies, hut he
was sorry to think that many of them now in
;ex-
istence were based upon erroneous principles, and the
consequence was that when a member, who had sub-
scribed all his life, cs me to require relief, he found thereivvas
nothing to divide—(Hear.) Another bad practice was the
system of holding the meetings in public-houses. He
thought that practice ought to be done away with, as
well as all secret signs and the plan of placing the con-
trolling power entirely in the hands of the elder mem-
bers.—(Hear, hear)
Mr. ADDERLEY said there was nothing to
prevent Odd Fellows' Societies coming into the law, but
their secret signs.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--Yes, there is the
Corresponding Societies' Act.
Mr. ADDERLEY did not think that Act could
prevent Odd Fellows' societies from being legalized.
l'he funds collected by these societies were exceedingly
large, and he thought this was the proper time to make
an effort to induce the Odd Fellows to give up their
signs, and place their funds and institutions within the
jurisdiction of the law.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said it was of the greatest importance
that the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Plymouth should not be lost sight of.—(Hear, hear.)
At present, so expensive was the mode of proceeding to
obtain a legal opinion as to the solvency or va-
lidity ef a friendly society, that societies notoriously
insolvent were allowed to go on increasing the mischief
they had already commenced.—(Hear.) He bad always
thought that the best means for securing the welfare of
the industrious classes was the establishment of a safe
and sure institution for depoziting their small earnings,
and he, for one, was ready to remove the difficulty the
Hon. and Learned Member for Plymouth had complained
of by cons eatiug to the appointment, at the expense of
the State, of competent legal officers, to whom the so-
cieties should have access, free of charge,
when they entertained any doubt as to the validity of
their proceedings.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to know
whether the Attorney-General would object •to some
measure to bring these societies into a secure state, and
within the pale of the law. The defalcations that had
lately taken -place among these societies rendered it
necessary that something should be done.
The ATTORNEY. GENERAL thought that some
measure must be adopted to place these societies upon a
sound footing.
Mr. E. DENISON trusted after what had taken
place to-day:some measure wculd be adopted to make
these societies take a larger scope, by being placed on a
better footing.
Mr. P. SCROPE thought that the Government was
the only party that could properly manage these socie-
ties, and he trusted that the time was not far distant be-
fore the whole subject would be taken into consideration
by them.
Lord D. STUART said that the excellence, the uti-
lity, and the importance of these societies was allowed on
all sides; and it this was the case, it was evident that it
was also important that they should be legal societies.
Some of them had gone on, blindly no doubt, to do many
things which were not exactly in accordance with the
letter of the law. He had hoped that be should have
been able to convince the Attorney-General last year of
the necessity of granting some boon to these societies.
He trusted, though he had not been successful last year
he hoped he might be this in inducing the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman to make some provision for the ad-
vantage of these societies, especially including those of
the Odd FelloWs.
Mr. F. LEWIS said that as there seemed to be sonie
objection to the second reading of the. Bill, he would
suggest that it should be withdrawn, and that it should
be reintroduced with the advantage of the improvements
which had been suggested during the discussion, or if
that plan was not pursued, he thought they might be in
troduced in the progress of the Bill through Committee.
Mr. SOTHERON said that when it was recollected
that out of the 32,000 societicii, with an aggregate re-
venue of 6,000,0001., only 14,000 were enrolled, while
18,000 had no legal protection whatever, some legii-
lation was clearly necessary upon the subject. He
was happy to accept the suggestion of the Hon. Gentle-
man, and trusted that he might have the assistance of
the Government in a complete modelling of the whole
of the law with respect to friendly societies.
Mr. F. LEWIS had no objection to impose that useful
duty on the lion. Member, and would render all the aid
which, as a member a the Government, it lay in his
power to give.
The Bill was then read a second time.
TENANTS' RACK RENT BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. SOTHERON said, that though he had for many
years been a Member of that HOUB3 he bad never until
lately known that it was competent for him to move two
Bills on the same day ; the matter to which that now
before the House referred was of so much
consequence, that he was induced to proceed with it.
He thought by the present measure a greater degree of
uniformity in the management of gaols would be at-
tained than at present existed. Then the items that
would remain would be the salary of the treasurer of the
county, the clerk of the peace, and the coroner, and one
or two minor items. He thought it would be desirable
that all parties who feel interested in this matter
should meet together during the holidays, and endeavour
to agree upon some plain and intelligible plan for apporS
fleeing those burdens fairly and equitably upon the rater
payers. He hoped, however, that the House would agree
to the Bill in its present shape, after adopting certain'
verbal amendments which seemed to be necessary.
Mr. E. DENISON said his Hon. Friend founts
h's principle carrie d him a great deal farther
than the details of his Bill iudlcated. If the system
of local taxation and the management of the
county cess was in a satisfactory state, partial
legislation, such as the Hon. Member proposed in
this case, might be desirable; but was the local
taxation and the management of the county cess in that
satisfactory stets ? He (Mr. E. Denison) thought not:
He did r.ot wish to throw any impediment in the way of
the measure, but he would put it to his Honourable
Friend whether, with his own views and proposals,
it would be possible for the House to adopt
this small modicum of legislation. As the subject was
about to be taken up and considered in a bona fide
manner, he trusted that his Hon. Friend would consent
to put the present measure off until the Committee on
the subject had made their report.
Mr. SPOONER would consent to a Committee up
practical evil existing
aasnda he trusted, therefore,
ethmweelodeuyl7l persevere with his Bill,
that t
whirs hh
sne
oeedn B. illr r,r
ibeaun
and the passing of it would remedy a great evil, and
would not interfere with the regulations that had been
proposed.
Mr. HUME said that the landowners and farmers were
very properly complaining of the increase of the county
rate, which, when the Commission was appointed,
amounted to 600,0004 but had now increased to
1,000,000/. Ho agreed with the principle of the Bill,
but it would only be partial in its operation,
rhecilcet F
werere
rents shod and ho thought that the better course would
be to let it go to the Committee up stairs, in order
to see it it could not be made more perfect, and also
more acceptable to the landowners, ratepayers, and to
the country generally.
said
cast
si
ttu l lanwu pa was simply
then , exemptedpar no
d
m-
fprooSsei pro-
posed c WILLIAM
certain
tenantslANburdens i
atj° LTFE
w
although ho agreed that much more ought to be done,
he thought that there could not be any great objection
to grant those tenants a moiety of relief, for which they
would be extremely grateful.
Mr. SEYMER supported the Bill.
Mr. C. LEWIS said that if this Bill were referred to
the Committee up stairs many subjects connected with
it could be maturely discussed which could not well
be determined upon in the House, but he should be sorry
to see it postponed, as it involved a great practical im-
provement. The question could hardly be considerd as
ono of county expenditure, because it simply related to
a matter of taxation between landlord and tenant.
Mr. W. PATTEN said that the principle of the Bill
was agreed upon several years ago, and, therefore, he
thought it would be unfair to refer it to a Committee up
stairs. Heeshould give the Bill his warmest support.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY conceived that some mea-
sure was necessary, for a universal spirit of dissatisfac
tion existed throughout the country.

Mr. E. DENISON said that the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume) did not object to the progress
of this Bill, except in so far as it was only the ground-
work, and not the proposal, of a larger measure. What
was the principle of this Bill ? Why it was this,
so far as ho could understand: it contained a
proposition that half the expense shOuld fall upon the
landlord and half upon the tenant, yet every Member
who had yet spoken had been in decided opposition to
any such principle. The Hon. Member fur Montrose
had suggested that the Bill should be referred to a ge-
neral Committee, and his own feeling was quite in ac-
cordance with that notion. He believed that the usual
course of the House was to pass the Bill through its pre-
sent stage, and then upon its recommittal to refer it to a
Select Committee, and he would suggest that it should
be referred to the same Committee as that which was
instituted for the larger measure. If such a course were
pursued he should withdraw his opposition.
Mr. C. LE NIS explained that the nature of the Bill
now before the House was altogether different from that
which was introduced yesterday, and if the same Com••
mittee dealt with both Bills, the probability was that
the right principle would be altogether overlooked.
Mr. SOTHERON said that the object of the Bill
would, he conceived, be altogether lost sight of if it were
to be referred to the same Committee as that which was
sitting on the larger measure. The effect of such a
proceeding would be to verge the small measure into
the principle of the larger one. But the objects of the
two Bills were altogether different, and that point
which he desired to gain of an equitable ad-
justment of the rates would be totally lost. He
would suggest that this Bill should pass through this
stage, and then be referred to a Select Committee; they
would then have to wait a whole year for the benefit
which he intended to obtain.

Mr. E. DENlSOls,.:inTexplanation, said that he had
no desire IA hatever to press his opposition. Be could not
see any obstacle to the re'erence of the two Bills to the
same Committee, awl was ready to withdraw his opposi-
tion on the understanding that the principle should be
fully considered in Committee.

After a few words WILSON PATTEN,
Mr. HUME said the object of his Bill was for the
entire manageinelit of the expenditure of the county..
rates, and had no reference whatever to any different
apportionment.

Mr. P. SCROPE hoped that the:Government, having
taken this subject under its consideration, would take
into consideration tho whole subject of local taxation.
It was desirable to have a better system of audit of the
accounts, and of the collection of local taxation, than has
hitherto obtained. He did trust the whole subject would
be taken into consideration.
Here the discussion dropped.
The verbal amendments were then agreed to, the