The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

their real interests in diminishing the number of their
men for the sake of economy. Time was the greatest
economy in c ,mmerce, and they should seek, by making
these ships effective, to accomplish short passages. That
was the true and best economy. It was known that the
Americans had introduced machinery on board their
ships to save labour, which, no doubt, was useful ; but
machinery could not enable them to reef topsails in a gale
of wind. The best thing was to make expert seamen, and
to equip their ships in a way that would enable them to
make quick voyages. Ho knew it was difficult to esta-
blish strict discipline in these ships, but he thought
that temperance should be established, not only in
the forecastle, but in the cabin. He did not mean ab-
stinence, because spirits could not be 'dispensed with in
severe weather. The Sunday ought also to be made a
day of rest, and employed in reading, and of all things,
ship owners ought to endeavour to take the men out of
the hands of crimps; and Sailors' Humes should also be
established for their comfort, when they were on shore. It
was not his intention, to trespass on their Lordships. He
thought it right to state what measures the Government
ought to introduce. This countiy had obtained the su-
premacy of the sea from men who did not refuse to pay
the price of that supremacy, and they ought not to sell
that importance for a mess of pottage. He dismissed the
Bill with contempt, for the principles upon which it was
based. He dismissed it with disgust, not without appre-
hensioas of the consequences that may result from it.
Let the Government do what it might, and let the ship-
owners do what they might, this Bill would impair the
mercantile marine, and thereby endanger the supremacy
of the naval forces of the country.
Earl GRANVILLE said he would not enter into the
question whether votes had been given on this subject
against the conviction of any of their Lordships. He
did believe that such was the case on either side of the
House. He cordially concurred in what had fallen
from the Noble Earl, and he hoped it would go forth to
the country, and that the shipowners would follow the
advice his Noble Friend had given them. First, with
regard to the remission of the duty on timber, suggested
by the Noble Earl, he had himself adverted to that sub-
ject on a former occasion; but a Noble Duke sitting near
his Noble Friend said he could not bear of such a thing.
Such a remission would be considered unjust by miners
and other parties who used timber. With regard to a
new registration, he could not see any great objection to
that; and with regard to the Merchant Seamen's Fund,
referred to by the Noble Earl, a measure had been
introduced last session founded on the suggestions
of the Noble Earl, but it met with such opposition
from the shipping interest, that it was found impossible
to carry it in the form it was brought forward. With
regard to the discipline on board merchant ships, it was
the intention of the Government to introduce a measure
upon that subject, which, he hoped, would effect a great
improvement. The benefit of temperance could not be
overrated, and the result of reading and education on
board those ships would be attended with the same
effects as on shore, and would be followed with good
results.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA. said this was a measure
of free trade carried on to a reckless extent. They were
now going to abandon the supremacy they had obtained
on the seas, and would bring ruin on the country.
Earl TALBOT said he thought the suggestions of his
Noble Friend (Lord Ellenborough) ought to be adopted
by the Government. He objected to the Bill, as being
carried against the feelings of those most interested in
the shipping of the country. He was anxious to disen-
gage himself from any concurrence in it, and threw the
whole responsibility on the Government.
Lord STANLEY said if be thought any arguments he
could use would induce their Lordships to retrace their
steps, no labour would deter him from urging them on
their consideration, but he must frankly express that he
had no new arguments to bring forward beyond those he
had already urged against the Bill. Nor even it he had,
could be hope to shake the determination of that House
on the third reading, and his arguments would, there-
fore, be necessarily wasted, inasmuch as the votes given
already decided the question, and he should, therefore,
abstain from putting their Lordships to the trouble of
repeating any additional observations, as he could not
possibly anticipate any other result to follow than that
which bad hitherto taken place. He should, therefore,
leave to her Majesty's Government the full and entire
responsibility of the fatal consequences to the country
which be feared at no distant period would result from
this measure; he should leave on them the full and ex
elusive responsibility of introducing it, and should justify
himself by saying not content to the third reading of the
Bill, and place on their Lordships' journals the record of
the grounds on which he thought that this third reading
ought not to take place.
Lord BROUGHAM observed that after the eloquent,
nervous, and spirit-stirring speech of his Noble Friend
near him, who opened the debate, he did not feel it
necessary to trouble their Lordships with many obser-
vations, and he was glad to find his Noble Friend, the
Noble Earl opposite (Lord Granville) set a right value
on that part of his Noble Friend's speech, which con-
sisted not in commentaries on the Bill, but suggestions
of great importance to its well-working. He (Lord
Brougham) hoped the attention of the Government
would be directed to these suggestions, for it such a
course be followed, great good must ultimately arise.
He was bound to say also, that looking round for an ex-
planation of the extraordinary phenomena which had
taken place in the passing of the Bill, though by a narrow
majority, even including those who decided without
hearing the arguments brought forward at all, including
those who were absent from the arguments, still the
majority by which it was carried amounted only to ten.
There was no doubt a small increase of that majority in
the Committee when those present could alone vote.
Great efforts had been made, on which he commented
on a former occasion; they were honoured by the pre-
sence of diplomatic functionaries, stationed in different
parts of Europe, whose duties he conceived at that
period were more important at their respective Courts
to which they were accredited, and yet they left their
respective posts at those critical emergencies, in order to
hasten over and vote for a question which he hoped
would not affect their foreign policy. All these diplo-
matic functionaries coming, including his Noble Friend
from Paris, at a time when no such emergency existed
since 1793, enabled the Government to increase their ma-
jority, by such means they were enabled to pass the
Bill. There was, however, another cause, inde-
pendent of diplomatic interference, and that was the well.
known fact, that men whose true patriotism and talent
were above all personal and paltry feelings—men whom
he could not help thinking took a mistaken view of the
facts, as to the present position of public affairs in the
country, gave the measure their support, from a dread of
the consequences which might ensue. They thought the
throwing out the Bill would throw out the Government;
that appeal would be made to the country, by dissolv-
ing the Parliament; that it would lead to a contention of
Free-traders and Protectionists; set class against class,
and that was a crisis their patriotism would not allow
them to consent to. That was he believed a fair solution
of what had been done. It he had been of their opinion,
he should be a humble follower in their course, but he
disputed the fact; he believed no such war would take
place, and that if it did it must have been in 1847.—
(Hear, hear.) But he had it from the highest authority
on both sides, that instead of such a war as had been
apprehended, the whole of those different classes, com-
mercial and agricultural, were entirely favourable to
the rejection of the Bill. Ile lived through many of
those storms in 1808, and latterly in the free-
trade controversy of 1846, when be joined the present
Ministers of the country, then in opposition; and
he must admit he did not expect so soon to see so con-
siderable a reaction as was then taking place among
many who left him on questions connected with free
trade. If his Noble Friends near him live they would
see those persons who were now against corn- law repeal
as much repeaters in two years' time as they were in
1846. There was a reaction, no doubt, but it was
against the present Bill, and therefore he had no doubt
whatever that a great mistake was committed by those
who acted from those motives to which he had already
referred. It was unnecessary to take up any more of
their Lordships' time, and he should therefore content
himself by recording his protest against the measure.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE hardly knew whether
he was justified in cffering for their Lordships' consi-
deration even a very few words, because his Noble
Friend near him, although confining himself strictly to
an explanation, gave such a one as he hoped was antis.
factory to the Noble Earl opposite, and because he felt
further, that the observations of those Noble Lords
who had taken a part in the conversation were not of
a nature to require a detailed reply from him. He
(the Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to say,
that though the Noble Earl opposite protested against
the third reading of the Bill, he was justified in in-
viting the House into something like an inquiry into
the motives of the majority of their Lordships who voted;
he was not prepared to admit that it was a convenient,
or a Parliamentary practice, to inquire into the opinions
of their Lordships' House, but to collect those opinions
from their Lordships' votes, and from nothing else. If
they went beyond that, there was no degree of persona-
lity or misrepresentation, there was no interference
with the sacred and indefeasible right of voting, which
would not be brought into their debates, and therefore
he condemned in the strongest manner the danger of
such a practice. Such a course must have the effect of
diverting the debates of their Lordships' House from the
arguments used, and ho should say that he never listened
to so little of argument, and so much of observation, as
on that occasion. If the Bill be likely to be attended
with extraordinary effect, he knew of nono so extra-
ordinary as to produce opinions of a highly astound-
ing nature from those who were always regarded as
of Conservative opinions. They had heard it even,
asked by the Noble Earl opposite, how far it might ba
fit that those who had as good a right as any Members
of that House, namely, the members of the Right
Reverend Bench, to take their seats, might for the
future be admitted to their deliberations. In another
quarter surprise is expressed that because Noble Peers
were engaged in diplomacy, they bad no right in ex-
pressing an opinion. If they were brought to vote
in
that way, instances might be found to show that a moi-
ler course was often pursued by Noble Lards opposite.
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) gave the most distinct
er
denial to the political motives with which the
charged by the Noble Earl, that they were about to were
to bar-
ter the inheritance left them by their ancestors, or dissi-
pate it. What they contended for was,
founded on that thati inheri-
tance was in danger—that although
com-
mercial principles, it must be extended in proportion to
the wants of the age, and that if they extended com-
merce they strengthened the navy ; if they allowed com-
would weaken and diminish the
merce to diminish they
navy also. He conscientiously believed that whatever
effect the Act may have in particular circumstances, its
general effect must be.. With
shipping of the regardcountryto sailors, whether
they were
employed in British or foreign ships, they
would be always found an unfailing source to the navy
and army of this country, and produce heroes, such as
those who heretofore, and would hereafter be found do-
fending the interests of this, country. He had that
very morning received • an account, in which
the gratifying faet wet stated, that a alp of 500

JUNE 13, 1840.

tons burthen sold for a much higher price, now that
the trade was denuded of all monopoly. He believed
that was one of the many proofs which would gradually
chase away those f-ars created by debates which had
taken place in that House, for British ships, built by
British shipbuilders, and manned by superior men, would
for ever command, the supremacy of the seas over the
nations of Europe.

The Bishop of OXVORD, upon the motion being put,
said he should not have troubled their • Lordships with
any remarks upon this Sill if he regarded it merely as a
commercial or maritime measure. But it seemed to him
to touch upon moral considerations of a most serious
kind. The amendment which he had to propose would
explain in what way it touched. moral considerations.
The ground upon which be was justified in treating this
as a moral question was that the slave trade was an in-
jury to humanity, and that this country should use" its
influence and strength to put down this accursed trade.
—(Hear, hear.) It was upon this ground that they esta-
blished a fleet for the suppression on the African coast,
and entered into treaties for the same purpose.—(Hear,
hear.) It was not true that that was done for commer-
cial purposes, but to serve a righteous object. They
must therefore deal with the subject he had in
view upon moral principles only. He would probably be
told that this was a commercial question, and to act as
he would suggest would be followed by inconvenience
and loss, but that was no answer. The object he had to
pursue was the cause of right, and should be treated as
he would propose. Now he had to show to their Lord-
ships that, without the clause he intended to propose,
this measure would increase the slave trade. It was
stated that this measure would quicken trade generally.
The traffic he alluded to would be augmented. That
country_abounded in the prodigal gifts of Heaven, and
all it wanted was labour to supply, which it went upon
the principle of working out theirlaboui, which had to
be renewed every year to produce the raw material.
That labour was only to be furnished by the African
slave, and as this Bill would hate the tendency of
quickening trade, and consequently the necessity for the
supply of the raw material would increase ; and in
exact proportion as it did, that a direct'
stimuus would
be given to the Afribin trade, and in' the same pro-
portion they would lessen the inducements of the Bra-
zilians to do away with this trade, which by treaties
they were bound to do. But they did not enforce the
treaties by arms because the Government 'had not the
power to enforce its commands. Was it not, therefore,
much more imperative upon them to aid the Government
by every moral means in their power? At present in
Brasil a few slave•traders is Rio were paramount. These
traders bribed the members of the Assembly, and to such
an extent was influence carried, that no hope could be
entertained of any effort on their part to abolish the
slave trade. Now nothing could• more strengthen the
desire of this country to suppress this traffic than the
adoption of the amendment he had to propose. If they
persisted in their present course he feared that the time
was not far distant when this country would once more
again directly participate in the pollution of the slave
trade.—(Hear, hear.) The course of trade was from
this country to Rio, and there the selection of articles
was made for the slave trade. The vessels bringing
sugar here would on their return touch on the'
African coast, and' haring conveyed their living cargo to
Brazil, would again return to England with the produce
of their labour, and so they would once more be in-
directly engaged in the African slave trade, the
most polluting and abominable of all trades. That was
strong ground, but he might appeal to them on higher
and nobler motives. Many of those present bore here-
ditary honours, derived from those who were willing to
peril everything for a cause which they deemed the most
sacred on earth. It was a false and hollow promise that

this would increase the national wealth if it stained the
national honour. Commercial advantage should not be
sought at the expense of the sacred cause of freedom
and religion. They were building this fair edifice of
maritime advantages upon a smouldering volcano, for in
process of probably a very short time the slaves might
combine against their masters, and violence and brutality
would attend the convulsive struggle, in which all hopes
of commercial benefit must perish. The Brazilian people
hated u', because they looked upon us as increasing the
price of the slave to serve our own avaricious pur-
poses, and from the course we had pursued as not
being really in earnest in the object we proposed
to accomplish. With a view to the removal of
this impression, and for the reasons he had given
he begged to propose the following amendment:—" And
whereas it is expedient that the privileges proposed to
be given to foreign ships by this Act should not be ex
tended to the ships of nations actively engaged in the
African slave trade, nor to foreign ships carrying the
exports of such nations ; be it enacted, that the said
privileges shall not extend to the ships of Spain, or to
foreign ships exporting the produce of the West Indian
colonies of Spain, or to the ships of or to foreign ships ex-
porting the produce of Brazil, until such time as her
Majesty shall have declared, by orders in council, that
the Governments of Spain and Brazil have respectively
given to her Majesty full satisfaction as to the fulfilment
of the treaties into which they have or shall have entered
with her Majesty for the suppression of the African slave
trade; but that until such time the aforesaid Acts, de-
clared by this Act to be repealed, shall remain and be of
full force and effect as regards such countries, any such
repeal as aforesaid notwithstanding."
Lord HOWDEN said that, despite the eloquence of
his Right Rev. Friend, in depreciation of what he called
the mere commercial principle, he would confine his ob•
servations entirely to that part of the question, and deal
with it as one of facts and figures. Although he might
take it from that high ground on which the Right Itt.,v.
Prelate had so felicitously placed it, yet by that mode of
treating it, the practical effect of the amendment would
be more clearly discerned. The Right Rev. Prelate ac-
knowledged, with great frankness, the importance of our
commerce, but he did not see any part of his speech in
which that importance was practically admitted. There
was at this moment no treaty between England and
Brazil. This state of things gave to us a power of deal-
ing with Brazil as we might think fit, but it gave the
same power to Brazil also. In fact, there was at this
time in existence a decree, though not formally put in
operation, by which the vessels of nations that did not
put Brazilian ships upon a footing of equality were to
be charged with a differential duty of one-third more
than the usual charges. This would show not only the
immediate burden to which our ships would be subject,
but at the same time Brazil could not be charged
with acting in a vindictive spirit, because the
date of the decree was October, 1847, and its
operation had been merely suspended from time
to time in order to give foreign nations time to enter

into friendly arrangements. But if in the interim we,
having materially altered our navigation-laws, were to
enforce unfavourable terms upon Brazilian ships, the
consequence would be an increase of one-third of all the
charges to which ships are liable, independent of retalia-
tory duties on the goods landed. This would lead to a
similar policy on our part, and ultimately to the sus-
pension of all commercial intercourse with Brazil. That
would actually lead to the object aimed at by the Right
Rev. Prelate; but when the fact that the exports to
Brazil from this country were 3,000,0001., he thought it
would be considered that an amendment which would

injure, if not destroy, a trade like that, ought to be
carefully considered.—(Hear, hear.) The imports of
pure Brazilian produce into this country were much
smaller than our export trade, being about 600,0001.
Besides this, the amendment, if passed, would very likely
not touch the trade immediately aimed at. He had no
doubt that some Noble Lords might vote for the amend-
ment, on the ground that it might disarrange the influx
of foreign ve,sels, and thus preserve the trade to our
own ships; but he believed that the Right Rev. Prelate
acted upon no such principle.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He believed that he was sincerely anxious to put down
the slave trade, and therefore he hoped the Right Rev.
Prelate would pause, when he assured him that so long
as Brazilian produce was so much required in all parts
of the world, any such proposal as that submitted would

. .
not diminish it by one bag of cotton or one hogshead of
sugar.—(Hear, hear.) He could assure their Lordships
that the world was very slow to acknowledge our phi-
lanthropy iu the matter of the slave trade, and if we
passed such a measure it would materially increase the
impression that interest, and not benevolence, was our
actuating motive.—(Hear, hear.) In short, the proposal,
if carried, would place one million tons of British ship-
ping under greatly increased burdens; and he asked it
the Right Rev. Prelate was prepared to bring in a Bill
to deprive the British shipowner and merchant from
enjoying the privilege of trading to Brazil? Such a
measure, if introduced, would produce general opposi-
tion, and yet in his conscience he believed that no-

thing shore of it could effect the object aimed at by
the Right Ray. Prelate. The repression of the slave
trade was, however, not to be effected by legislation. The
habits and feelings of mankind, either national or con-
ventional, were so strong, that unless there was a general
movement against that trade, actuated by feelings al-
most amounting to fanaticism, it could not be put down.
The proposal would not in reality affect the slave trade,
but merely displace some other part of the traffic at pre-
sent existing.—(Hear, hear.) He asked, therefore, how,
without actual force, the growth and exportation of Bra-
zilian produce could be prevented? This amendment
was, in fact, an intervention in the internal affairs of
another nation—part of a system which he deeply de-
plored, and which had already raised up numerous
enemies to this country. Our energy and trade were so
great and so widely extended—our arms so long
t n
fingers so active—we interfered so generally
liantp p
the airs
of mankind, that any such interference as
would, in the end, damage infinitely more the trade of
with. He could not think thai t wasohnutsiomueodfdtlhed
i the e
this country than that of the couutrieswe in tt
that would
g h
what t thethe y
had
already, adop-
tionof this
Rouse to damage this measure by adopting do tin amendments
it, and he hoped they would not accept
this amendment.
The The E arl ofam WARWlCKendmentwouladaidnuhleliftyhou
already done with regard to the navigation-laws, and on
that ground he could not support it.
Lord DENMAN said ho was glad the speech cf his
Right Rev. Friend had been made, and that it had been
answered. That speech convinced him that the amend-
ment grew out of this Bill, and therefore he should sup-
port it. He was satisfied the slave trade had been so far
repressed as to afford evidence that it could be sup-
pressed. When the world believed that the natious
which had united for the suppression of this trade were
sincere, it would be easily suppressed. He could not
believe that the principles of morality would not prevail
in patting an end to this wicked traffic. They spoke
" solidulity" of nations, but was not Africa within that
fraternity ?—(Hear.) In this question he only saw two
parties, the slave-trader and the miserable slave, who
was the victim of this nefarious traffic.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had nothing
to add to the arguments used by the Noble Lord (Lord
Howden), who brought so much information on the sub-
ject, which be so ably interwove into his argument. If
they abandoned their commerce they would lose their
influence, and recede from the position they attained by
commerce. They were called upon to do that exclu-
sively upon religious grounds, by refusing to deal with
CnutrictB Who retainer gamy. If they wade publio

opinion an enemy upon this subject, they would raise a
great obstacle in the progress of their efforts to suppress
the slave trade by negotiation and remonstrance; but it
could not be believed that the. exclusion would be con-
conducive to the suppression of the slave-trade.
The Bishop of OXFORD replied, and their Lordships
divided, when there appeared—
Content
Non-content ' 23
Majority
—l4
. The Bill was then passed, and. their Lordships ad.
journed.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
TUESDAY. JUNE 12.
ARBITRATION.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "" That an humble
Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciously pleased to direct her principal 'Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs to enter into communication with
Foreign Powers, inviting them to concur in Treaties, bind-
ing the respective parties, in the avant of any future misun-
derstanding, which cannot be arranged by amicable negotia-
tion, to refer the matter in dispute to the decision of Arbi-
trators:"—Previous Question put. " That that Question be
now put." The House divided :

MINORITY—AYES, 79.
Aglionby, H. Harris, Richard Pigott, Francis
Aicock, Thomas nestle, Alexander Pilkington, JameS
Anderson, Arthur Headlam, Thomas Pryse, Pure
Armstrong, R. B. Henry, Alexander Reynolds, John
Bass, M. T.
-
Ileyweod, James Ricardo, Osman
Berkeley. C. L. G. • - - Heyworth, L. Robartes, T. J. A.
BlewittOteginald , Hindley, Charles Roebuck, JA.
Bouverie, E. P. Hobhouse, T. B. Scholefield, William
Bright, John Borman, E. Sidney, Alderman
Brocklehurst, John Hume, Joseph Smith, John B.
Brotherton, J. Ker,;Richard . Spearman, 11. J.
Brown, W. Kershaw, James • Strickland, Sir O.
Bunbury, Edward King, P. J. Thompson,-Colonel
Clay, James - Lushington, C. Thompson, George
Cowan, Charles .M'Cullagti,X. T. Thornely, T.
Crowder, R. B. Marshall, J.:G. Trelawny, J. S. •
D'Eyncourt, C. T. Matheson, Colonel . Villiers, Charles'
Duncan, George Moffatt, George , Walmsley, Sir J.
Ellis, John Moody, C. A. Wawn, J. T.
Evans, Sir De Lacy Morris, David Westhead, J. P.
Fagan, William O'Brien, J. Willcox, Brodie
Fox, W. J. O'Connell, John Williams, John
Gibson, Thomas M. O'Connor, Feargus Wyldf James
Glyn, G. C. Osborne, Ralph
Greene'', G. Pearson, Charles TELMA.
Greene; John Pechell, Captain Cobden, R.
Grenfell, C. Pascoe Perfect, Robert Ewart, William
Grosvenor, Lord R. Peto, Samuel M.