The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

SUN.

although the number of men to be voted was the sane as
last year, still there was an addition to the change, the cause
of which he would briefly explain. A charge had been made
last year in the mode of victualling the Navy, by which a
better quality of food was supplied to the seamen, and their
comforts were greatly increased. Banyan-days (that is, days
when no animal food was allowed) were entirely abolished,
and beef and pork substituted for them. This occasioned
a slight addition to the charges. A reduction had been made
in the quantity of ardent spirits formerly allowed, which had
been, in the opinion of all naval men, considerably more than
was necessary. The large allowance of grog was the source
of quarrels and insubordination, and consequently rendered it
incumbent to multiply punishments. In order, however, that
the seamen might have no reason for complaining, the amount
saved by diminishing their grog was paid to them in the
shape of increased wages. This was about 2s. per month to
each man, of the warrant and petty officers, but there was no
increase of wages with the Commissioned and superior Offi-
cers, being a saving on the supply of ardent spirits, it would
add nothing to the charges. There was another improve-
ment, in authorizing the issue of a small advance of pay
to the seamen when on foreign stations. But this could not
be done, except by authority of the House, and it would
make an increase of two shillings per month. The rise in the
price of provisions would add another shilling, making in all
three shillings per month each man. The next item of wear
and tear of ships require the additional allowance of 2s. per
month. Several articles of naval stores were considerably
risen in price, particularly iron, which had increased 100
per cent. The charge for cordage was the sane as last
year.—Not apprehending any objections, and reserving to him-
self the privilege of explanation, he should move the first
Resolution, That 29,000 men (including 9,000 men for the
marines) be voted for the thirteen lunar months after the Ist
January, 1826. •
Sir J. YORKE said, that with respect to the change in the
mode of victualling the Navy, he should like to hear from the
Gallant Officer on the second bench (Sir George Cockburn)
what advantage had resulted to the Navy substituting some
thing called tea (which was in fact only clover dust), at the
rate of 2s. 9d. per pound for grog ? • The Hon. Baronet (Sir
G. Clerk) might rest assured that the broils amongst the sailors
would not be put an end to by this diminution of the allowance
of grog. He had hoped that in giving up the grog a better sub-
stitute would have been furnished without any additional charge
to the Exchequer.
Sir G. COCKBIJRN said, that from every quarter of the
world the Officers of the Navy were sending home praises of
the change which had been made in • the victualling of the
navy.—( Hear. hear I)—The Gallant OfliCer had made a mis-
take in supposing that tea was a substitute for grog ; they
were independent of each other.—(llear!)—The granting part
of the pay on foreign stations had corrected an evil which he
and other officers felt to be very great. Sailors going on shore
in a foreign port without any money, were exposed to tempta-
tions, and frequently deserted in consequence. Since the
pocket-money was given in the place of grog, no desertions
took place. The abolition of banyan-days was another im-
provement. Formerly flour was given instead of beef. The
allowance should have been 61bs. of beef ; instead of that only
4lbs. were given, the other 2lbs. were made up in flour. The
whole of our Naval system was considerably improved, and he
could not understand the ground of the Gallant Officers's
objections.
Sir I. COFFIN defended the diminishing the allowance of
grog, which, when so copiously supplied, was the cause of
constant quarrels. It was made up for by increased wages,
and tea and cocoa were added.

Sir J. YORKE said, that be had been completely misun-
derstood, as he did not make ally objections, but only asked
for an explanation, in order that he might know how the thing
worked.

Sir I. COFFIN said, that he understood the calling tea
brick-dust (no, he believe it was clover-dust), to be an ob-
jection. _ _ _

Mr. HUM E expressed his satisfaction to hear the gallant
Officer (Sir G. Cockburn), admit at last that desertion was an
evil, which he had been in the habit of asserting was almost
unknown. The whole of the present naval system was objec-
tionable on the ground of its not holding Out inducements to
sailors to volunteer. He hoped that the alterations which had
hcen made would prove serviceable to the' Navy. The pay of
the Navy ought, however, to be greatly increased, for it was
wholly inadequate to the wants and merits of the men. The
pay was indeed so inadequate as to be one great cause of the de-
sertions into foreign service: it should be augmented. He was
glad to learn that the seamen were to be supplied with a por-
tion of their wages whilst on foreign stations. It often happen-
ed that they were absent eight or ten years without receiving a
single shilling, except what they got from the purrs:.;-s. He
hailed this change as the beginning of a more compl±te and
efficient one, and trusted that it would not cease until that great-
est of all evils, impressment was done away.
The Resolution was put and carried.

Sir G. CLERK moved a second resolution,—That 923,650/.
be granted for paying the wages, (at ttie rate of 2/. 9s. per month
each), of the before-voted 29,000 men,
After a few words from Mr. Hum E, Sir L COrF IN, and Sir
J.Yo 'IKE, the resolution was carried.

The next vote was for a grant of 603,2001. for victualling the
same number of men.—Agreed to,
The next was a grant of 320,4501. for the wear and tear of
the fleet.

Mr. HUM E objected to the vote, because the Estimate gave
the House no data upon which an opinion of its correctness
could be formed. He objected to the calculation being made
per man, and submitted that for the future, the lion. Baronet
shoUld take the expellee upon a number of ships employed in
the service of the year.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that the estimate was made upon
the average number of men employed in the different years,
and he saw no other means of ascertaining the probable ex-
pence, depending as it did upon accident.
Sir J. YORKE said, that the terms wear and tear had been
in vogue many years, without having any distinct meaning.—
As there were so many Commissioners of the Navy, he thought
it a pity that the expenditure included in this vote could not be
placed under some more proper heads.
Mr. CHOKER stated that there could be no objection, and
never had been to state to the House the prices of stores and
other materials, the want of which could be anticipated.—But
such a detail as the Honourable Member seemed to want,
would include a statement of the nature of the service in which
the money was to be employed in the succeeding year, which
f'or political reasons, it would be imprudent to make ; and on
that account the present vote had been generally considered as
a vote of confidence. lie would ask whether, even in this time
of profound peace, it would be proper to publish a statement
by which foreigners, who might afterwards become our ene-
mies, should be made aware of the scheme of employment for our
Naval service all over the world. „If any Gentleman entertain-
ed any jealousies to the prices of stores, as he had before said,
there would be opportunities for objecting to them.
Mr. MA BERLEY had never heard such an explanation of a
vote as that given by the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty since
he had sat in Parliament ; and should think necessary to make
it the subject of.a distinct motion. They were told that the
House was called upon to give the Government confidence for
the application of the sum included in this vote. It was called
for under the head of wear and tear ; and it was easy enough to
understand what that meant. Hut they were now told by the
Hon. Gentleman that something further was done with the
money of which the House knew nothing..
Mr. CHOKER said that what he spoke of was the distribu-
tion of the force, anti not the application of the money, which
he could assure the lion. Member was all applied to the wear
and tear of the Navy.
Sir J. YORKE was glad to hear the explanation, because
he thought front what first fell from the lion. Secretary, that
there was some great policy; or something to be kept from the
knowledge of the House.
Mr. MABERLEY explained that he. had been under the
same mistake.
Mr. HUME expressed his surprise that the Hon. Secretary
should be afraid of letting the public and foreigners know the
destination of our ships, when a Gentleman by the name of
Murray, under his express sanction, regularly published a'
Printed list, stating where every ship in the Navy was to be em-
ployed. If, then, the world knew this, where was the reason
for keeping it from the House of Commons ? Be was quite
satisfied that from the manner in which these Accounts were
kept, considerable alteration was required. Ile had no doubt
but that investigation would show, as in other cases, that the
money was expended in a manner not intended or understood by
the 1-louse. In the expenditure of money he had no confidence
at all in the Government : and he could not conceive what con-
fidence was necessary to be given for the expence of the wear
and tear of vessels.
Sir G. CLERK said, that by looking at the expellee of for.

PRICE SEVENPENCE:

mer years it would be seen how the money was applied ; and
upon that average the estimate of the Prospective expence was
taken, at so, much per head according to the number of.men. He
saw no advantage in taking it upon the number of ships,.wllile.
the latter mode would be Open to the.objection talcs by
Hon. Friend, that foreigners wourd.be made -acqu3.Elted With
the intended employment of our'force:
Mr. MA BER LEY concurred with the . Hon. Memb,ir for
Aberdeen in thinking• that all expenditure should be laid be:
fore the public, and no confidence given to the Government in
such matters. Was it not sufficient confidence that the. Hotta.,
granted the money by anticipation ?
The Resolution was then voted.
The next was a grant of 94,25e1. for the Ordnr.nce of t.!:e
same service. -

Mr. HUME made similar objections to this vote, and mai;l-
- that the detailed expences ought to be laid before the
House, and not the calculation 'per man. It welykl- then he
found that much of this money, as he had upon a foither
sion chewed to the House, was expended upon die:freemen c
Queenhorough, one hundred and sixty of whom were en:pleyed
by the Government; and thus the seats for that'Borough wre
secured.—When this was known, to be the case, subject
demanded the strict fittentlon of Parliament. Howevr he re-
spected the wisdotn of our ancestors, he thought the experience
of " us moderns," was in many respects superior ; and he par-
ticularly objected to this system of secresy with 1%.4; ~rd -to th
actions of the Government. It was impo:sible, front the na-
ture of the accounts, for any man to see-whether this, vote was
correct or not.

Sir G. CLERK said that the expenditure of the niatiey was
clearly applied to the necessary services .of the Navy, and tl;:!
employment of powder vessels at Queenborotzgh to carry
powder to.the ships for which it was designed, c,:mld not
dispensed with. But these details came before theilouse
the Ordnance Estimates.

Mr. MA BERLEY thought there could be no time so proper
as the present for investigating and objecting to such abuses.
It was notorious, that to become a freeman of Queenboroug4
was to obtain a'sort of annuity by means of the useless eniploy-
Ment given to them by Government in sending their boats.
with powder up and down the Thames. If detailed estimates
had been laid before the House, these things would never have
been allowed. He hoped that such detailed estimates would
be given by the Hon. Baronet, and if not it was competent to.
move for a special estimate upon those heads, which he himself
should do if it were. not done by his Honourable Friend. -
Mr. HUME expressed, his intention of taking that courso if
the estimate were not altered in another year.
Sir I. COFFIN said the details could now be had.
Mr. HUME denied the statement of the Gallant Admiral,
and declared that he knew nothing about the matter.
The Resolution was then agreed to; the report was ordered
to be received to-morrow, and the Chairman obtained leave to
set again on Wednesday.
ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND..
Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day for re-
suming the debate- upon the motion for kave to bring in 'a
Bill to amend the law relating to unlawful Associations in
Ireland.

Mr. G. LAMB said, that he felt a natural desire to state
his opinion to the House upon a topic which had justly claim-
ed so large a share of its attention, and of the attention of the"
country. It appeared to him that, notwithstanding the length •
to which the debate had extended, the provisions of the pro.-
posed Bill had still been left in considerable obscurity. lie
agreed with the Hight lion. and Learned Attorney G,n,ral fur
Ireland, that those who framed the Convention ,3ct of 1792 had
a full regard for theigonstitution. He would .not us' a phitis-e
which bad lately got much into.vogue (and one possessing mote
no-meaning he had scarcely ever met with) he would not say that
the framers of that act respected the' spirit of the Col istitutuin ;'
but they did shew a becoming respect for the practice of the
Constitution which had not been followed upon the present oc-
casion. The Convention Act contained a provision which stated
that it should not operate to prevent the meeting of the people.
to obtain a redress of grievances. Ne he had heard of no such
provision in the Bill about to be proposetL and thus for the
first time they were called upon to legislate against a right
hitherto considered inalienable and indestructible. Whatever
had been the conduct of the Catholic Association, its origin
was created by. the existence: of -grievances, and its object
was to obtain redress for them. That men should associate
for such a purpose was clearly constitutional ; and if they pro-
ceeded to unwarrantable measures, the King's A ttorney-Gea
neral should be content with watching them, and stepping
when occasion demanded the exercise of the powers vested
in him by the law. The Attorney-General had indeed watched
them ; but all they had to complain of was, that he had used
too much vigilance, and preferred indictments against acts
which were not indictable. And now the House was called
upon, as in the case of the bottle and rattle assassination, to
supply an apology, then by enquiry, and now by Bill, for his
defective law and worse discretion. The lion. 3lember then
argued that the conduct of the Government towards the two par-
ties in Ireland had no pretension to the impartiality which they
claimed for it. It was clear too, that the Orangemen themselves
might complain w:th much justice of the proposed Meastu e.—
They might say to the Government," You are repaying its for
our loyalty anti the support we have given you by putting us
down, not for any acts which we have committed, but for the
misconduct of our opponents." But why had they heard no-
thing of this from the friends of the Orangemen in that IlOuse-?
Because they knew well that the Bill would not reach them and
that it would operate against the Catholics alone. They knew
themselves to be so strongly fortified 'in their illegal secrecyH
so long understood and so long practised—as to be beyond the
reach of this or any other law. lie next came to the gravamen
of the charge against the Catholic AsSociatiOn ; he meant that
which had beer, described in A the speeches on the other side
as levying taxes.—(Hear, hear !)a—Fle contended that there
was no difference between the subsCriptions raised by the
Catholic Priest and the money collected by the Bible e;ocie-
ties and other bodies. lie did not knoW whether he was
addressing many who were in the habit of going to church
laugh.)—He supposed he was ; and if so, lie was sure.
there were few amongst diem who did not come out with their
pockets muck. lighter than when they entered ; and that, too.
at the recommendation' of. our Protestant Clergymen. The
money so collected was applied to laudable objects, but not
such as were more laudable than those of the 'Catholic Pries:-
hood. If this were levying taxes, he only' wished that t'a,
Right lion. Chancellor of the -E;ehequer would levy his
the same way, giving the same option, and there would epee
be an end of the odious character attached to the word taa.—
(A latigh.)—As to the passage so much dwelt on by the tr
side, calling upon. the Catholics to be tranquil by the hate the
bear to Orangemen, they were enjoined to show tht;ir hattr :d.
by forgeting injuries, and by giving .their enemies-no cause Cr
provocation. This was'the light in which .the o,jaration cneht
to be viewed. Some had wished to apply to it the sentiment cc
Shylock, is hen he Said
Mates any man the thing he would -not. kit/ ?"
but be thought it used very rmich in the ea me settee that N'42:l,re
Weston was made to say, " Is not every tiasielbra
bound to hate every Frenchman as he bates the Devil in
(A. laugh.)—He believed there Were.maiy CO.un try E
boar in and cut -of .that 'House, who still honoured tiiat
ment.witheut • a`taching a more 'defined 'meaning to-ra • "'!'hid'
was intended or implied by the hatred of Orangamen! ' Ile
had considerable hope, front the speech of the A ttorney-Grae-
ral for Ireland, that the state of the Catholic; population or
that country would yet receive the just attention of the Uoveer.
ment, and that from the beneficence of his Majesty's feel;p;s,
and the moderation still shewn by the Catholics, - some ppttino
at least of their claims might be granted during the present Sy-
iion, so as to prevent the necessity of the proposed Bill "s'i'ft,
into a law.—(Hear, hear !) .
C"
he had tiphAeMarCSl° in the
opinion as to the imperative necessity of suppressing; thing;
-lena'st thirt-v
tholic..Association. After the experience of t .
the commenceddebatea bs ye r
vs: yd inbgo,t thatt
(ctirry
t whatever. airing!
support the existence of any
Associations
had followed fate.
that time party had followed party,
fahetyi" gave rise, were ale'
tion, and the Associations to which
t ;leingber then went over
years;he should have conceived it impossible for any man to.
ways the curse of Ireland. The -4°,enci
*an enumeration of the Societies
ifiOrrr
; had followed them, contend.:
the unhappy consequences wire
past called loudly for the put-
ting; that all the experience
of
texistence. He gladly supported
tirig down such as. were
'Right Hon. Friend, not only because it
within that period, and
the' measure of his 'Rig
but also repress the misguided loyalty of
iwnittehne porerasentgitedAebssaoteltiinohcsomwpciaeristohne
rot. liat,,odcoiawiziio'
circumstances might again be likely• •
the Orange party, where .
to call forth its exuberance.
In saying this he could not avoid-
he contrasted sentiments anti conduct which a part of.
Association, but'
turbulent and intolerable acts of the Ca_
noticing4t
sec the complacency
stwilbt with
efejat7'ot.l.tos' house
discussion.aerd was(olicscpalsaiylotned' astonishing to

with which Gentlemen on the other side seemed to look upon
their inconsistencies. Who could forget the pomp and parade
with which the lion, and Learned Member for Caine (Mr.
Abereromby) came down to the House last Session to demand
the suppression of Orange Societies ? Who. forgot the violent
-denunciations which were then heard? And the Hon. and
Learned Member who spoke last still launched forth invective
against Orange Lodges, although he believed there were no
such things in existence. He could answer for Derry, which
had been described as the focus of Orangeism, that there was no
Orange Lodge in existence there. He believed that this Catho-
lic Association was the most dangerous, the most mischievous,
and the most unconstitutional body that ever existed in Ireland.
Commanding a paid press, it disseminated its pernicious prin-
ciples throughout the country, and its orators stuck at no
falsehoods which went to exasperate the people, and to create
hostility against the established institutions of the country.—
Some Gentlemen in that House had excused the intemperance
of the leaders of the Association, and the Hon. and Learned
Member who spoke last bad described it as .a mere speck of
violence. He had no means of judging of the speakers but by
their speeches ; and he would read to the House a few passages
from the documents of this body, and from the speeches which
had been delivered at its Meetings. In their Finance Report,
of which 50,000 copies were published last February, and dis-
tributed all over 'lreland at a time when the Rent was not
going on so successfully, the people were told " to wait until
they had a more favourable opportunity and better organized
resources." Three months after this, when the money came
in faster, Mr. O'Connell, in one of his speeches, told them,
" not to press the arming of the Roman Catholics at present ;
' if they did, it might be supposed that they were going to de-
clare war at once." All this might sound ridiculous enough
in that House, but what was its effect upon the Catholic pea-
santry ? That House might think it ridiculous ; but they
thought it good practical advice, and would be ready enough
to act upon the insinuations it conveyed, when " the more
favourable opportunity" arrived. There were other speeches
of the same class, addressed to their ignorant prejudices
and bad feelings ; but these were enough to shew the de-
signs of the Catholic Association with regard to the
peasantry of Ireland. He would next shew in what manner
the Legislature and the liberty of speech in the House of Par-
aliament were treated. In a speech delivered by Mr. Shiel
it was said,—" but the Legislature requires the degradation
of a whole people to satisfy its bigotry," and " it is a scion of
intolerance," and-so on. Lord Redesdale was characterised as
an assassin, -and the delivery of his opinion was called " an
- assassin-like speech." The Duke of York took the liberty
of speaking his opinion, and he was immediately subject to
the grossest attacks. The Finance Report declared him to
be " an enemy to Ireland." A Gentleman present having
more prudence than the rest, objected to this passage of the
report; when Mr. O'Connell got up and supported it, and
said, " The heir apparent ought not to forget that a Duke
of York once lost his crown for his opinions." Another
Gentleman said, that " the Duke of York's life was a life
of no service." These opinions and this language were then
disseminated over the whole country by the agency of their
- newspapers, and left to make impressions upon the minds of
the,ignorant, against which, he contended, it was impossible
for that House to be blind. In the same manner the Prelates
• or Abe Established Church were held up as " plunderers and
robbers." After eulogising the character of the Archbihop of
Tuam, the Hon. Member called the attention of the House to
the meeting held at Tuam, at which soldiers were present, at
the request of the Catholic Clergy ; and then to the proceed-
ings of the Association, which accused the Archbishop of
" introducing the soldiers for the purpose of intimidating or
murdering all the Roman Catholic Priests who should ven-
ture to express their opinion." He next alluded to a speech
of Mr. O'Connell, in which he directs the Catholics of Ire-
land to look at the example of the Presbyterians in Scotland,
who " hewed down with the sword of the Lord the Arch-
bishops and Bishops ; and when the soldiers of England, be-
came too strong for them, they retired to their mountains, re
titivated their strength, and afterwards carried war into the
dwellings of their enemies." This language, he repeated, was
addressed to the deluded and ignorant peasantry of Ireland,
than whom, he was sorry to say, few were more ready to enter
into scenes of turbulence and bloodshed. Let them now see
what Mr. O'Connell said of the Bench and of those connected
• with the learned profession. He described the Chancellorship
of Lord Manners anti the Attorney-Generalship of Mr. Saurin
as having degraded and sullied the independence of the Bar ;
and further, that the administration of justice 'wins " corrupt at
its source"—that it was " partial, vindictive, and unjust."—
These assertions had been ably and eloquently contradicted by
his Hon. and Learned Friend (31r. Doherty) on a former night ;
its falsehood every sensible mind knew ; but its object was
to disgust the people with the laws of the country, and to
array them against all its institutions. At one meeting of
• the Association two Gentlemen were proposed as members,
and their names (Mr. Devereux and Mr. Hamilton Rowan)
were received with " thunders of applause." Sir. Devereux
was the only surviving delegate of the Convention of 1792 ;
and when lie was proposed, M. O'Connell got tip and said, that
" Mr. Devereux must be admitted as a matter of course, be-
cause he was a member of the Catholic Convention." Thus it
appeared that a man became a member of the Catholic Associa-
tion by virtue of having belonged to another society which the
Legislature had declared to be iUegal. Mr. 11. Rowan was
secretary to the United Irishmen, and having been covicted of
seditious practices, and imprisoned, he escaped from his prison
arid. left the country. lie (Mr.` Dawson) believed that he
was afterwards attainted of high treason, but subsequently
permitted by the Government to return to Ireland. Upon
the name of this man being proposed to the Catholic Asso-
. eiation, it was received with thunders of applause ! Why
was if so—and why were all the most violent characters and
aheir speeches 'applauded in the same way by that Associa-
thin ? Because its object was to make the minds of the people
fittnitiar with .former violences, in order to fit them for an
eventual repetition of those frightful scenes which every good
man desired to see forgotten. He thought the distresses of Ire-
land were to be attributed to the Catholic Priests.--( Hear,
hear !)—He regretted that his duty compelled him to state that
belief, but it was sincere. He regretted that he had the mis-
thrtune to differ from the Right Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General for Ireland in this respect--( Hear, hear ! )—but he be-
lieved•the Catholic Association to be the work of the Priests, as
a irst step towards the overthrow of the Protestant Church._
They were told by Dr. Curtis, the titular primate of Ireland,
th::t the Archbishop of Dublin was an usurper. Dr. Doyle stated
that the " whole body of the Catholics was impatient-and dis-
affec:ed ; and that if a rebellion broke out, no sentence of ex-
comnionication would be fulminated by the Catholic priesthood."
---A Mr. L'Estrange denied that any character belonged to the
Protestant Clergy in the State. A priest of the name of Kelly
• told his congregation at Mallow to subscribe to the Rent " be-
cause." said he, " money is the sinews of war." What did all
• tais,proiOat a union of action amongst the, body of the priests,
e3l thrected to the same object ? Who severed the ties between
the landlord and the tenant ? Who led on the fury of parties
at elections, ana added to political animosity the aggravation
of religious fury ? Who impeded the course of education ?
Who stood up in opposition to every benevolent object which
- the friends of Ireland could devise ? To all he would answer—
the Catholic Priesthood ! And in all this they were animated
by the design of erecting their own Church upon the ruins of
• Protestant Establishment. Ilis opinion was, that if' the
Boost did not put down the Association, the Association and
the priests would eventually accomplish that design.
. bin CAREW was happy. to have an opportunity of express-
ing his sentiments on a subject of each importance, and which
geld excited so much interest in -Ireland—more particularly, as
he should not wish that his objections to the measures pro-
posed beadle . Right Honourable Secretary should be con-
strued into .approbation of all that bad passed there for the
last six months. He disliked all Societies which had their
origin in religiOti3 politics or religious exclusion ; but he bad a
perfect conviction .of the utter inutility of attempting to coerce
public opinion by • legislative enactments. As long as the
Cotholic Question remained in its present situation so long
. would religious feuds.attl societies exist. They might put them
down in one shape, but they would raise their heads in others,
and perhaps more objectionable forms. The very fate of the
Bill respecting Orange Societies should have taught the House
.- another lesson. Orange Societies were falling into disrepute,
and were abandoned by almost every person of rank or cha-
racter ; but when it
,was attempted to put them down by Act
_ of Parliament, the spirit was roused, and there were now
,- more Orangemen than at any former period. The same fate
, would attend the present Bill. They put down the Catholic
Board in 1814, and tkey had now an Association, which com-
ritehended all the rank, talents, and -erealth of the Catholics
• of' Ireland. Why then have recourse to unconstitutional,
useless ,encroachments on the liberty of the subject, when
they had •a, plain straight- forward remedy. Let them - do
justice to. themselves-s-let them do justice to the Catholics,
and to the Constitution. This was the only way in which
they could succeed. This was the only way in which they
- ought to succeed. ,There was, he believed, no thinking person
iii Ireland who did not feel that the point at .issue must even-
• tually be conceded. Why then •delay until concession -might
perhaps be attributed to • fear, and • cease to 'be esteemed a
• favour. The Irish Catholics.were now in .a very different situ-
- anon to what they were formerly. 'The Association now com-
prehended all classes, from the Peer to the peasant. The Catho-
lics of Ireland were formerly disunited, they were now united,
they knew their strength, and felt their grievances, as who would
nut feel them? Could they see unconcerned the King of Ha-
nover grant to his foreign subjects there privileges which the
Kin;;. of England was not allowed to extend to his subjects at
!Lorre ?—could they see this, and not feel aggrieved? Nay,
more, tine fate of the Bill respecting the English Catholics, had
done more to unite the Catholic Body than any one circum-;
stance with which he was "aimed.
,Session •after. :•Session,'

hear !)-lle alluded to that of his Honourable Friend who
had just sat down, and to that of the Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman the Irish Attorney-General. He would
ask how opposite parties outside the Cabinet were to be
reconciled, when its Members seemed so totally at va-
riance with each other.—(Hear, hear s—Violent persons
must think that they had their respective champions in the Go-
vernment. He should not, however, pursue the track which
either of his Honourable 'friends had pursued with respect
to former periods of Iriih history. The less that was said
about the past the better for Parliament and the better for
the Country. Did his Honourable Friend (Mr. Dawson)
think that if the page of history ware opened no items would
be found on the other side of the account ? Did he think that

murders were not balanced by murders and atrocities by atro-
cities ?lis Honourable Friend (31r. Dawson) had spoken of
Orangemen and Protestants as synonimous, but he must take
that opportunity to state that no two words were of more op-
posite import. He himself would not yield even to his Hon.
Friend-in sincere attachment to the Retbrmed Religion—but
because he held by that creed, could it blind him to the evils
which the Orange system produced in Ireland ? In bring-
ing forward the present measure the Right Honourable Secre-
tary stated that the object was to put down all Associations
in Ireland— meaning both Orange Societies and the Catholic
Association. Let the remedy be shewn to be effectual for that
impartial purpose, and roman would support it more zealously
than he should. But he must have evidence, not assertion, to
decide upon. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Dawson) said, that one
thing was true, and that another thing was true ; but to confirm
those allegations what State Papers did his Hon. Friend ad-
duce ! He read extracts from the Newspapers ! But were
such documents sufficient to warrant that House in infringing
upon the liberties of the subject, and silencing the demands
of the people for the redress of their sufferings ? And yet upon
those newspaper facts his Hon. Friend asserted that the Ca-
tholic Association had dissociated the people of Ireland from
the Imperial Parliament. He should further like to know from
his Hon. Friend, whether Orangemen existed or did not exist.
If, as he understood him to say, no Orangemen did exist, on
what plea was the present Bill introduced in the shape it then
appeared—for, according to his Hon. Friend, they were about
to legislate respecting a mere phantom. If so, there was an end
altogether of the object of the Bill. His lion. Friend had quoted
speeches from the proceedings of the Catholic Association,
and he ( Mr. S. Rice) was certainly not prepared to approve of
the whole conduct of that Body. Ile knew indeed of no Assem-
bly whose acts he would undertake to justify. The Gentlemen
opposite, he imagined, would not be very willing to he made
accountable for what passed on both sides of the House ; nor •
would even the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General for Ire-
land, he thought, be much disposed to stand committed for the
contents of his Hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry's
speech. But even for the acts, much less the speeches of any
public assembly, it would be too bad to be obliged to find a
justification. Had they not upon the table of that House acts
of folly, as well as acts of wisdom ? Had they not declared
that two and two, instead of making four, made five ? Let,
then, the general rule be applied to the Association, and he
should claim no more. The two parties however were not on
equal grounds. Let it be recollected that although violence
in those who possessed power, and were in the full enjoyment
of political privileges, might be blameable, it was only natu-
ral that violence should break forth among persons excluded
from all those enjoyments, and smarting under a complication
of injuries. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Dawson) seemed to have
carefully gone through all the files of the Irish newspapers to
..find support for the present measure ; but he would ask him
were there not speeches of a different character from those he
had pointed out ? Ile should beg pardon of the house while
he also read an extract from one of the last Dublin Papers
which had reached London, and to it earnestly entreated atten-
tion. lie alluded to the few observations which fell from Lord
Killeen at the last meeting of the Catholic Association, and
they were on every account most important, as they showed the
combination of moderation, and high station which that As-
sembly embodied, and the determined ohedience to the laws,
which at so critical a conjuncture as the present, governed
its proceedings :
" On taking the Chair, his Lordship said—There never was.
in the history of Irish Catholic affairs a period so important as
the yresent very critical crisis. During the last Session of Par-
liament the Catholics presented their humble Petition to the
Legislature, and at the commencement of the present Session,
although the Lords Commissioners' speech represented the
country as in the most flourishing condition—peace, trinquillity
anti prosperity through the British empire ; yet the Catholics
looked in suin to the speech from the Throne for the word Con.
cession—while there was strongly expressed the determination
of bringing forward a new proscriptive enactment, not merely
to oppress the Irish Catholics, but to strike at the root of British
liberty, of which, in thiscountry, little but the name was known.
(Loud Cheers.)—lt was, however, consoling to find, that their
Protestant brethren were coming forward in the cause of con-
science. Without the concurrence and support of their Protes-
tant countrymen, the Catholics could never expect emancipa-
tion, and it behoved them to be watchful, that the snares of
their opponents lead them into no indiscretion calculated to for-
feit the good feeling of the Protestants. He conjured them, not
by the hate they bore to Orangemen,' but by the love they
owed all men•—the stake they had in their country—the vene-
ration they owed to the memory of their forefathers, and the
fidelity with which they cling to their religion, which the lure
of emolument nor the apprehension of punishment could
shake, to submit to the laws with the fortitude of men and the
obedience of subjects."—
Now, if these sentiments were expressed by the Nobleman
who presided at the Association, and were favourably received
by the meeting, he trusted the fact would not be without weight
in suspending the decision of the House on the present Bill.—
Hear !)—But his lion. Friend (31r. Dawson) had said that the
Association disconnects the people from the laws and the Legis-
lature. If he (Mr. Rice) believed so, this was the measure to
rectify the evil, which he would assent to. The contrary was
the true state of the case. The Association said to every pea-
sant, " When you are aggrieved, apply to Parliament for re-
dress, pettrion the House of Commons, and you will there find
a remedy for your wrongs." The Association provided in like
manner with regard to the administration of justice, and he
would take that occasion to say, that he heard with much
pleasure the opinions of his Hon. and Learned Friend,the Mem-
ber for New Ross (Mr. Doherty) upon so important a point.
He wished, however, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
as well as the authority of others, had furnished the flouse with
some of the results of his own professional experience. The
opinion which he gave was too unqualified to be perfectly cor-
rect. If his Hon. anti Learned Friend had stated to the
House the particulars of a prosecution in which he was him-
self engaged on the Leinster Circuit, against certain Magis-
trates for gross delinquencies, it might be seen whether the
means existed of punishing those persons as they deserved._
Unqualified assertions with respect to Ireland were not to be
too much relied on. He recollected that at one time, when the
state of the Irish Revenues Department was proposed as• a fit
subject for investigation, it was said that nothing could be less
liable to exception ; and he afterwards had the satisfaction to
hear the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer charac-
terize the same Departments as an A ugean stable which required
to be thoroughly cleansed. In the course of the inquiries before
Committees above stairs, it was said to be notorious that the
most iniquitous occurrences took place before Magistrates ; and
one of the reasons assigned for encouraging the sittings of Petty
Sessions in Ireland was, that these 31agistrates could not take
fees, and must act impartially from the vigilance which one
evinced over the conduct of the other. The I-louse should there-
fore not implicitly confide in unqualified encomiums on the ad-
ministration of justice in Ireland. Was it not proved in the Com-
mittee above stairs that an indisposition prevailed throughout
the whole country to resort to the laws ? Upon this subject one
thing had come to light which was not without weight. In the
course of the Parliamentary investigation into the Distillery
Laws, it was stated that the committals under those laws amount-
ed to about 6,000 persons annually. One of the witnesses was
in consequence asked if it were not probable that, by encou-
raging the manufacture of legal instead of potteen or illicit spirits
for the use-of the poor, the number of cOmmi ttals would be dimi-
nished ? He answered in the negative, and illustrated his reply by
stating that scarcely any one drank potteen but the Dignitaries of
the Church, the Officers of the Army, and the Magistrates.—
(M uch laughing. )—So that theonly persona who violated th e laws,
or profited by their violation, were those who ought to uphold them
—the Dignitaries of the Church, the Officers of the Army, and
the Magistrates.—(A laugh.)—What then must the poor of any
country think of the laws thus administered ? The Hon. Mem-
ber then eulogized the Judges of the Court of King's Bench,
Ireland, for an unrivalled concentration of learning, integrity,
and wisdom ; but regretted • that some other of the superior.
Courts were occasionally scenes of buffoonery—where the pun:
of the day circulated, instead of the judgment of :the Bench,,7

the conduct of the Irish Catholics was contrasted with the His Honourable Friend (Mr. Dawson) had alluded to the con-
English,—they were asked, why did they not imitate the loyal duct of the Catholic Clergy towards his Grace the Archbishop
and modest demeanour of the English Catholics ? Then there of Tuam—but he believed in that statement something had
could be no objection, no danger, in granting their claims. been suppressed. He had very truly mentioned the pious and
What was the result ? A Bill passed the House last Session, zealous exertions of that Prelate in dispensing to the poor of
he believed unanimously, to place the English Catholics merely his diocese the charitable contributions of the British public,
on an equality with their more noisy, but in this respect, more at a season of unexampled suffering—(Hear !)—and accused
fortunate neighbours. It was thrown out in the other House the Catholic population of having forgotten the obligations
by a considerable majority, and several Noble, and not unin- thus conferred on them. But what was the fact ? That after
fluential persons, expressed sentiments which would lead one t i the Reriod referred to, the peasantry unanimously claimed
suppose that they would, if possible, take away those privi- the right to cut and gather in the Archbishop's harvest for
leges which werealready granted. That was impossible. They him free of expence. If any change had since occurred, it
might retard, but could not arrest the progress of public was because a crusade of proselytism had been undertaken
opinion. in order to make Protestants of the Catholics, and estrange
Mr. SPRING RICE was anxious to address the House them from the religion of their forefathers. If any fault were
after the speech-which had . just been delivered by his Hon. attributable to the Irish, it certainly was not ingratitude, and
Friend the Member for Londonderry. In the course of the least of all was their repugnance to the laws passed in Eng-
present debate the House had heard two speeches indicative cf land attributable to such a source.—( Hear !)—He greatly re-
the state of Ireland and of the state of Government.—(Elear, grated that the
.introduction of the penal law now before

the House tended to raise an invidiotis comparison between
the present and the past reign. The last reign had been all
concessions to the Catholics; for which, notwithstanding
the personal feelings of the Monarch, the people of Ireland
were still grateful—out the only Act of this reign which they
had cause to remember was the passing of a new penal statute.
Could any man think, however, that the present Will would be
operative ? The Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Peel) had said that
Parliament should run a race of ingenuity with the Catholic
Association, but what sort of race would it be ? The Right
Hon. Gentleman would find that when he started from London
his competitors would have reached Hounslow. It was useless
to talk of keeping within the spirit of an Act of Parliament, it
was enough if men kept within its letter. He had a great

authority lMr. Plunkett) for saying that persons were at liberty
to do all which the law did not prohibit them from doing.—
Let this definition be applied to the present Bill. If the Insur-
rection Act said that a man should
.not be out after sun-set, it
made it legal for him to be out an hour before sun-set, and so
in whatever mode, or under whatever circumstances, the present
Bill did not prohibit the Catholics from discussing their Brie-
, vances or seeking their redress--they would be justified in doing
both. Upon the ground, therefore, of inoperativeness—upon
the ground of the division in the Cabinet upon the Catholic
Claims, he called upon the House to pause before it adopted a
measure inoperative for good and operative for evil. He should
conclude in the words of his Right Honourable Friend below
him (Mr. Tierney), and implore the House to withhold its
assent from the Bill. It should have his decided opposition,
at the same time that if a proper course were taken to put down
all Associations in Ireland, it should have his support.
Mr. DA WSON explained. Ile begged to say, that he stat-
ed there were no Orange Lodges in Derry; but he had not
made a similar assertion with respect to the rest of Ireland.
Mr. BROWNLOW should avail himself of that oppor-
tunity to express his opinion on the measure which his Right
Honourable Friend the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Goulburn)
had introduced to the House upon such unanswerable princi-
ples, and supported by such incontrovertible statements and
arguments.—( Hear, hear !)—lie knew not whether the allusions
which had proceeded from the other side of the House, as to
the manner in which the Nobla. Marquis at the head of the Irish
Government, had been thwarted in his liberal endeavours to
ameliorate the condition of Ireland, were meant to apply to his
Right Honourable Friend or not. But if they did, it was
easier to make such assertions than to invalidate the facts of
which the House were now in possession. Who had ever
filled the same office that had laboured more sedulously in the
public service, or with greater success.—(Hear, hear!)—Not
only in the details of the arduous duties lie had to discharge
but in bringing the measures confided to him to a satisfac-
tory conclusion his Right Hon. Friend had fulfilled the ut-
most wishes of Parliament and of the country.—(H ear !)—lle
(Mr. B.), however, did not desire to separate the Chief Secre-
tary for Ireland from the Irish Administration. He had so
often heard the fiction repeated at the other side of the House,
that the whole of the Protestants of Ireland were adverse to
the Marquis NVellesley's Government, that he could not
avoid giving the assertion a positive denial. Lord Wellesley had
conferred the greatest benefits on that country. Under his ad-
ministration Ireland had become an object of attraction—under
his Administration a ready ear was always lent to the griev-
. anecs of the people, and a ready hand stretched forth to re-
dress them.—(llear, hear !)—lle had raised the country from
poverty to prosperity, and converted a scene of disturbance
into one of tranquillity. For these advantages the thanks of
• Ireland were due to his Majesty's Government, and to none
more than to the Marquis Wellesley. That Nobleman, how-
ever, could not be allowed to enjoy the honours and the grati-
s tude due to him. He was accused of feeling jealousy at the C-
a. t'adie Association, and that as two of a trade call never agree,
• the Noble I ord envied the successful exertions of that Body
, in tranluillizing Ireland. Nothing, however, could avail, un-
less that country were governed under the responsibility
of a liwful Government, which would beat down the Catholic
. Association. For one, he sincerely regretted that the senti-
ments contained in his Majesty's Speech at the opening of the
present Session, had not been promulgated in the ezpeech at
the commencement of the Session. of 1824. Bow much was it
to be deplored, diet- vhen, he last. year presented a manly and
, loyal petition to that Hotote, and supported it with what power
. of remonstrance he possesised, measures had not been devised
to put down the Catholic Association. The situation of Ire-
land and of Parliament would now have been very different.
The Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs then described
the proceedings of that body as the mere exuberances of a free
state of society, and the Association itself, as a sort of safety
valve through which the explosive humours of the nation
escaped—an excrescence on the soft surface of beauty, which,
left alone, would speedily wither and die away. But in a few
months what a change in the constitution and pretensions of that
assembly ! And now might he ask what Association was the pre-
sent Bill directed against? Ile would answer the Catholic As-
sociation alone.---( Hear, bear 1)—If any thing has been done to
warrant the Legislature in infringing upon the rights of the
people of Ireland, it is imputable to the Catholic Association
only. What had the Protestants, " sworn and unswom," done ?
hook to the North of Ireland, where the great majority of the
people were Protestants. Bad they not been patient, enduring,
peaceful, and charitable towards the Catholics beyond all past
example ? and under indignities and exasperations beyond all
past example ? that character was admitted by. the high and
the lowly ; and whether followed into.private life, or observed
in public life, the faitloof the Irish Protestant was fa'and pro-
ducing its genuine fruit. Nor was it of the Protestants of the
North of Ireland that he spoke, although from re*lence and
connection he was better acquainted with them than with those
in other parts of the country. It was, however, every where
the same. What then had the Protestants done that they
should be made to taste the bitter cup which ought to be ad.
ministered to the Catholic Association only ? He supposed, as
he had seen sickly children induced to take physic by seeing it
taken by those who were in good health, so the pill was to he
made palateable to the Association by compelling the 'Protest-
ants to swallow it likewise. The just were to suffer with the
unjust, the innocent with the guilty—and those who would
serve and stand by the country be involved in the same
punishment with those who would involve the nation in one
common ruin. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir
Henry Parnell) would fain persuade the-House that Mr. O'Con-
nell and Mr. Shiel were harmless as lambs- and innocent as
doves, while Mr. Gordon and Mr. Noel were denounced in the
severest terms for having attempted to circulate among the
people that wicked book, the bible I—(Hear, hear, hear!)—He
grieved, he heartily grieved, to hear the Hon. Member for
Northampton (Captain Maberley) and the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Queen's county (Sir H. Parnell) condemn the conduct •
of Mr. Gordon and Mr. Noel for endeavouring to make the peo-
ple acquainted with those joyous strains which accompanied
a feeling of true religion. Even if proselytism were their
object, they deserved praise for it, and they were right, as
every Christian would be, in endeavouring to spread the faith
which in his soul he believed to be the only true one. The Hi-
bernian Bible Society, however, could not be justly accused
of any attempts at proselytizing. That society merely sought
to give the Catholics their own version of the Bible—to pay
Roman Catholic schoolmasters to instruct Catholic children,
and what was the cry raised against, slot against proselytizing,
but against educating the poor, because the Catholic religion
was founded on ignorance, and by ignorance only could be up-
held. The Honourable Member then adverted to the Conven-
tion Act, and showed that its object was to prevent the people
from making any advance towards electing deputies, as well as
to undertake the representation of any of- the King's subjects.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Nottingham (Mr. Denman)
had attempted to throw ridicule upon that Act, because its spe-
cially excepted the Houses of Parliament and the Houses of
Convocation. But that fact allowed the extent to which the
Legislature wished to stretch its provisions, and that it intend-
ed no assembly to escape its operation.—.( Hear !)—lf any Mem-
ber opposite were a real friend to Emancipation, he ought to
assist in putting down the Association. That ody did not
meet to petition—their At millions was the beginning, the
pith, and the end of all they said, that they might intimidate
the Legislature by menaces. The Hon. Member here read an
extract from a speech of the Marquis WellesleY's
in 1812,
against conceding the claims of the Catholics to a system of
terror and defiance. The fact was, that the Association had
caused many Protestants, who were previously friendly to
Emancipation, to entertain a contrary opinion. Am ong the
Presbyterians of the North of Ireland, one man out of every ten
not be found to do so at present. He admitted
who formerly signed a petition in favour of the Catholics
not
Association was a most powerful Body—the whole population,
Peers, Hierarchy, Priests, and Laity were identitie with it,
and if the Catholics were first admitted to Parliament, the As-
sociation would next demand that they be admitted to the
Great Offices of State. It would then demand a restitution of
-the Church property for the Catholic Church, which was the

god of its idolatry, and if refused would take it, and shake the
title to all the property in the country. The Hon. Member
concluded by reading an extract from a speech of the present
Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench in Ireland, in 1811,
when Solicitor-General, and which lie applied to the Catholic
Association, assuring the House that the Bill had his firm
support.
Sir JAMES M-ACKINTOSH always listened with plea-
sure to the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and to
the Hon. Member behind him (Mr. Dawson), as be consi-
dered them the able advocates o a too powerful party in
Ireland. Ile should not, however, formally reply to either
of those Honourable Gentlemen, as the tone which they had
adopted savoured so much of ie acrimony of. political feel-
ing in Ireland that it would he unwise for a British Legisla-
tor to imbibe any portion of it in treating what he thought
the most important question that ever came before that House.
The Hon. Member, however, who last sat down, had made
i one most momentous—one most honourable avowal.—(Cheers.)
His (Sir J. Mackintosh's) object in rising was to enter his so-
lemn and earnest protest against this Rill as a stigma upon the
Catholic cause ; and as the means of silencing complaints with-
out redressing wrongs. He rose to protest against it as a
pretext to relieve his Majesty's Government from the ne-
cessity of doing justice to Ireland, and enable them to con-
tinue a system of temporising with that unfortunate coun-
try.—( Hear, hear !)—He acted thus, as his Right Honourable
Friend (llr. Tierney) had stated on a former night, not from
any predilection for the Catholics, but as the friend of civil
and religious liberty. As a Protestant, he gloried in the Re-
formation, although he could not approve of the rapine which
followed it. The great benefit conferred on mankind by that
event was, that it established the right of private judgment on
all questions. Those who denied that right now were Papists
in Protestant clothing, and would establish small Poperics,
instead of the great popery which once trampled on mankind.—
(Hear, hear !)—At a former period he himself should have
been a moral enemy of the Catholics, and had lie then lived
and been so called upon, would have drawn his sword against
them at the battle of the Boyne. The principles of the Revo-
lution of 16811 were his creed—in them he had lived, anti in them
he trusted lie should die—for they were founded on civil and
religious liberty. He should therefore oppose this new attack
on the Catholic cause. For the last thirty years the ablest
men of the country had adopted two modes by which the evils
of Ireland might he removed. The one looked at the subject
superficially, and recommended a treatment by penalties:
the other took a deeper and comprehensive view, and wished
to negociate a reconciliation of the people—( Hear, hear !)_.
by giving them equal rights. This was the only ground of
.necessity or strong expediency on which Mr. Pitt propoSed
to bring about the Union. The Union of Scotland was effected
to confirm the House of Hanover on the British throne; but
the Union with Ireland to conciliate the two great parties of the
country. In 1805, when Lord Grenville presented the first
petiton to the House of Lords from the Catholics, he said that
he only performed a duty impcked by the Act of Union. Every
man of talent (with one splendid exception) had taken the same
side of the question, and be did not believe that the people of
England were disposed to exclude the Catholics from their civil
rights. What then were the Catholics to think in the 25th year
of the Union, when they found his Majesty's Ministers repeat-
ing the stale tricks of plots and Convention Acts, and commenc-
ing a series of scuffles and contentions, when there could be no
honour in victory, but great danger in defeat. The Hon. anti
Learned Attorney-General for Ireland had divided his argu-
ment into three heads. The first was, that the present Bill aid
not trench on popular rights; the second, that it did not go to
injure the Catholic Cause; and the third, that it was founded
on necessity ; that it rested on the sales populi which was
supremo lee. If the latter was correct, the other grounds were
superfluous. Necessity though
" The plea of tyrants and the creed of slaves,"
was an obstacle not to he surmounted—to begin then with that
suprenza lex in the present case the sole lee. He (Sir James
Mackintosh) did not deny that associations, covenants, and
leagues which tended to separate one class of the people from
another, were extremely injurious. But lie would ask any Gen-
tleman if any such things ever existed in any sound state of so-
ciety. The Honourable Member for Derry (Mr. Dawson) said
that the history "of Ireland was the history of Associations. The
reason was plain—the law was impotent, because the Govern-
met wanted power. But were such Associations ever put down
by coercion ? They were told that the question was, whether
' there was any necessity for this measure, not whether it was
convenient. But against this mode of stating the question he
protested. What were the common ingredients of the danger as-
sumed to exist in the Catholic Association, and stated to Parlia-
liament as the grounds for the presentapplication ? These were-
-Ist. The mischief intended ; 2d. The mischiefdone; and, 3d.The
dangerous language spoken, and so forth. Now, with respecs
to the mischief intended, lie should call upon his Learned
Friend, the Attorney-General for Ireland, to refute that ground
of argument; for he had honourably and distinctly acquitted
the Catholics of all bad intentions, as well as every individual
in the Association. He had even gone on to establish this upon
the foundation of argument, observing with respect to Mr.
O'Connell that his station and interest in society, and his
amiable qualities in private life, negatived such a charge.
That individual, who was about to become celebrated as
the object of this measure and all these debates, was con-
sidered by his Right Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Plunkett) to have given sufficient pledges of his innocence.—
Then as to the question of mischief done—all that they had be-
fore them, under this head of charge, were two trials, which
had been selected from the whole mass of evidence that had
conic to the Castle at Dublin. And what were these ?—they
were acquittals.—(Hear, hear !) Thus then there was no actual
disturbance of the administration of justice; and so far from
the interference of the Catholic Association being regarded as
an evil, the Judge thanked them for their services. And these
were considered sufficient grounds for this application to Par-
liament to suppress that body. He had been somewhat alarm-
ed, lie confessed, when he heard the Right Honourable Se-
cretary for the 'Home Department draw a parallel betwixt
this Catholic Association and an Association in this country
for the pretended administration of justice. The case of the
Constitutional Association, or rather the Bridge-street Gang,
alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentleman was this :
The present Lord Mayor of London was some years ago a
member of this Association ; it happened that he became a
Sheriff, and in that capacity had to return the jury in the trial
of a man called Dolby, under an indictment preferred by the
Association. The consequence was, that the whole array was
challenged, as returned by a partial officer, and the case
lapsed pro defectupiratoruni. Now this was the case brought
forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was at once ob-
vious that by the introduction of it he had fairly argued himself
out of Court and the bill off the table. For, according to this
fact, there could be no further prosecutions, and consequently
there was no occasion for this hill.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The
next ground of necessity upon which this bill was founded, was,
that many warm and indiscreet expressions had escaped from
this Irish assembly during the eighteen months of their exist-
ence. He should not trouble himself to examine into the
proof of this statement—if he admitted it, he admitted no
more that what must attach to every meeting for the purpose
of public discussion. There was still another ground intro-
duced into the argument for this application, upon which he
should entreat the House to exercise their unbiassed candour.
IVhen a body of men were stigmatized as criminals, it was
their duty to weigh well every point of the evidence adduced
against them. The charge to which lie alluded consisted of
two sentences, picked out of a long address issued by the Ca-
tholic Association to the people of Ireland about the begin-
ning of December last. He had carefully read over the whole
of this address, and the opinion of any Gentleman in that
House, who would do the same without any preconceived no.
tion, must be that if these two passages were left out, the whole
would appear to be written in the spirit of conciliation, and to
proceed from a desire to restore peace, order, and harmony, to
Ireland.—( Hear, hear !)—He confidently asked if this was not
a strong proof of party spirit to endeavour to place it in any
other light. He was sorry that so great a critic in language as
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Canning)
should have lent himself to such an interpretation. The
first of the sentences quoted was a dissuasive from outrage,
telling 'the people that violence led to the loss of the lives
of innocent men. It conjured them to think how many trans-
portations and deaths of innocent people had been caused
by Whiteboy crimes. Many, they said, would accuse the
laws ; but the fact was, that these evils were the results or the
passions necessarily aroused in such a state of things. What
was this, lie asked, but a vindication of the laws ? With what
anxious care had they refrained from the least approach to any
topic which might inflame the minds of the men whom they
addressed ; and with what effect might they not have so ad-
tehoepyl
e not
dressed these inen_the very persons that were guilty of the
crimes denounced in this paper ? Not a word was there about
the Insurrection Act—the address abstained from the common
upon
writers place even of informers. How popular would this have made
the
n w t
'There was ein
n
iscoanndtenwthaotf had
in human writing of a more glaring distortion from the sense
of pure English than that made by the Right Hon. Gentle-
manplayinginstance in allusion to this address. If the House would read it
deliberately they would come to the same conclusion. With
respect to the particular word " hate," he would detain the
House by a few observations. Exaggeration, he knew, was
resorted to amongst other means of making an impression by
great debates. In this respect the Right Hon. Gentleman op.
posite was something like Dryden's Critics, who enhanced the
rules they endeavoured to enforce, by furnishing in their own
persons a violation of those rules. They might remember that
it was related of Dr. Johnson that' in speaking of one of his
friends he said he was a Tod hater, for he hated a Whig and
m a Scotchan.—(Laughter. —New lie did not happen to have
been a Member of the Clu , but if he had been, he should have