The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-19 00:00:00

fat to relieve the landed interest, but he was equally free to
say, that the measures they had devised, when iu the fair
course of operation, seemed to him likely to prove extensively
beneficial. He highly complimented an Honourable and
Learned Gentleman and a Noble Lord for the view which they
had taken of the Agricultural question, and proceeded to show
how much happier the cultivator in England was than the culti-
vator in foreign parts,. where the former was a slave, or so op-
pressed by feudal exactions, that his state much resembled that
of slavery. He had now a question to put, and the House,
when he mentioned it, would recal a debate on the subject of
prohibitory laws, the principal part of which lay between Mr.
W. Elliot and !tar. Horner. Such a subject could not be in
better hands. Mr. Homer contended, that where there was
political danger, prohibitory laws were justifiable, and Mr.
Elliot could not conceive that political danger could be consist-
ent with commercial safety. lie now wished to obtain a dis-
tinct answer from the Noble Marquis as to the part which Go-
vernment meant to pursue—the principle on which they meant
to act. lie showed the importance of the questions by describ-
ing the Agricultural Distress now existing, and then called the
attention of the House to the sentiments put forth in a former
report of one of their Committees, which he regarded as a demi-
official document. The Honourable Member then stated that
he understood a Right Honourable Gentleman on the floor
( %Ir. Huskisson) to be the author of the Report of the Agricul-
tural Committee, or at least that it had his full concurrence.—

He begged the House to allow him to read some passages from
that Report. Having done so, the Honourable Member in-
ferred that they were at variance with the Right Honourable
Gentleman's declared opinions upon former occasions, and con-
tradictory in their own nature- His object was to know upon
what principles they were to proceed. Ile believed that no one
would attribute to him the wish of exciting angry discussion
upon this topic ; but the deplorable state of necessity to which
they were reduced rendered it imperative that something should
be done without delay. He believed that no one doubted the
talents of the Right Honourable- Gentleman below him, and
every men-rust remember the celebrated peroration to his speech
upon the Corn Bill, in which he called upon the House to pass
it not as a measure favouring the fanner in particular, but cal-
culated to benefit the interests of all classes. He certainly did
wish to hear these differences reconciled; and if, contrary to
his intention, he had in any way misrepresented the Right
Honourable Gentleman, no one could be more ready to be set
right.
Mr. DAVENPORT said, that as many Honourable Mem-
hers had delivered their opinions upon this important topic, he
was anxious to state that he felt considerable disappointment at
the statement of the Noble Marquis. When he heard of the
flourishing state of the finances, he was of opinion that more
relief ought to have been granted biotite reduction of taxation.
He mutt Mao notice a mistake which the Noble
,111arquis had
fallen into in the course. of that statement. He calculated that
the farmer paid only five per cent. in taxes.-upon his out-goings,
whereas in the county of Chester, which he (SP. Davenport)
had the honour to represent, in dairies it was. 4s much as that
upon, one article alone, namely, salt. If therecould be one tax
more grievous and oppressive than another,it was that to which
he bad just alluded.
Mr. UURWEN said, that after what he had heard, he could
not hope for much relief to the distress of the country from the
labours of the present Session. Ile was friendly to the ap-
pointment of the original Committee, but he had been ex-
ceedingly disappointed in its results. He believed that no-
thing more could be expected Irons its re-appointment. What
was now wanted was legislation; and he thought no one who
knew the Noble Marquis would think him likely to shrink
from the responsibility of measures which he might ap-
prove, and he and his colleagues ought to be prepared with
measures upon a question of such vital importance to the coun-
try, without sending it at all to the Committee. No one could
nave attended the last Committee with more regularity than
the Noble Lord,
.and no one could have evinced a greater dis-
position to hear every thing that was offered upon tite subject;
and he, therefore, must be well acquainted with the difficulty of
coming to a conclusion under such circumstances. It was quite
clear, that with a Committee, the whole Session would be
passed without any definitive measures being effected ; and
he would ask whether it ought to be left to chance for a bad
harvest to throw open the ports, and cause the importation of
as much foreign The
as was equal to eight months consumption
of the country? The Noble Lord said, :that the proportion of
taxation to the produce of the land was five per cent. ; and
therefore he gave them the relief of one-half per cent. by re-
pealing the additional Malt Tax. Now, so far wrong was the
Noble Marquis in his calculation, he was convinced a saving of
20 per cent. would accrue to the farmer by the repeal of the
Malt Taxes, and of the taxes upon Barley, Salt, Leather,
Soap, and Candles. With regard to the Noble Lord's plan, es
it applied to the Sinking Fund, he (Mr. Curwen) was as
anxious as any one for retaining a Sinking Fund to a certain
extent; but let them give all the surplus income of the coun-
try till the present moment to the relief of Agriculture, and
let the Sinking Fund be increased by the million of saving
in the next year, and in the years which were to follow. He
did believe that the plan for taking off the surplus corn from
the markets when the averages were below 55 shillings, would
be productive of great benefits. The corn so bought would be
warehoused, and ready to come out when the markets should
get above 60 shillings, and thereby keep them at a steady
price, which would prevent the importation of foreign grain,
and put a check upon those injurious speculation which had
been so largely carried 00. The question of admitting foreign
corn was a most imyortant one, which affected the interests of all
classes • and the Noble Lord and his colleagues ought to be
prepared to take it upon themselves without the support cf a
Committee. He was astonished to hear the Hon. Member for
Sussex, while he acknowledged that the distress of his consti-
tuents was increasing, express his satisfaction and thanks to
the Noble Lord for the statement which he had made. If that
was the language to be used by County Members, he did in-
deed despair. If they had acted firmly and properly, they
would have forced Ministers to make reductions. He was sure
that relief afforded to the Agriculturul interest by the repeal of
the taxes upon salt, leather, and soap, would cause a consi-
derable increase in the revenue by the increased consumption
which they would create. He was very glad to hear that the
revenue was in so flourishing a condition. He was utterly at
a loss upon what principles to account for the increase ; but lie
was told that it was so, and he was bound to believe it. He
did not mean to oppose the Committee, but lie did hope that
its labours would be confined within so narrow a circle, that
the House should have its report before them earlier than the
Easter recess.—(Hear, from the MarquiS of Londonderry.)--
As the Noble Marquis seemed to approve of that suggestion,
lie tiusted that it would be understood that the report was to be
expected before Easter.—(Hear !)
Mr. BENE T T (Wiltshire), commenced by complimenting
the speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Brougham), which he particularly admired for its sound politi-
cal economy, a science so intimately connected with the interests
of agriculture. He was of opinion that the appointment of
another Committee would be an insult to the Agricultural in-
terest. Surely the object of such a Committee could not be to
inquire into the extent of the distress ! Every one must be sa-
, tistied upon that point. The only object then which it could
have, must be to inquire into the best means of relid; but after
the statement which had been made by the Noble Marquis, it
would be ridiculous to expect any thing more than he had pro-
mised from a Committee of his own appointing. The Hon.
Member then condemned the principle of the Corn Bill, and
said that if any regulations were necessary, they had better im-
pose some small protecting duties. Low prices, he contended,
would be the most efficient protection to Agriculture, and low
prices could only be established by a reduction of taxation. He
'considered the Sinking Fund to be a Mere deception upon our-
selves ; and if there ever was a time when it could be dispensed
with to more advantage than another, it was at the present
moment. With regard to the plan of lending money to
parishes, he had no apprehension upon that account, for he ,
was convinced that no parish in England would borrow
money on the terms proposed. He also condemned the buy-
ing up of corn ; lee did not like to use the word ridiculous ; but
it certainly was the most absurd proposition that ever was
made in that House.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—The Honourable'
Member then reverted to what he conceived the oriheinal
causes of the present distress, and particularly referred it to
the first departure from cash payments. That act he con-
sidered to have been a robbery committed by one ,portion of
the public on another portion ; and that the same act had been
repeated by the late Bill, which authorized the resumption of
a metallic currency. The last robbery, however, was now cone-
clicked ; and he was not one who was disposed to disturb the
act of the 'House. He thought retrenchment and economy had
not been sufficiently attended to. There had been great cla-
mour in the country about reduction of rents ; and in some
places it was said that a reduction of 50 per cent. was necessary.
do believed that even that reduction would not afford so much
relief as A groper reduction of taxation. He denied, as had been
stated, by . Hon. Member, that. the fundholders were the
Owners of toproperty of the country. Every species of pro-
perty gave itsholder a common claim upon the whole. He
certainly inuat say that the great landholders deserved the dis-
tress in labial they were plunged. They had supported the
extravagance of the Administration, and helped to continue an
expensive war for the last thirty years. As the value of money
li 'hettncrea.sed 31 per cent. by sue late Act for the resumption of
Ali payments, lie thought it would be but a matter of justice
fer".those who received incomes and emoluments from the
State's to come voluntarily forward and give up that amount to
relieve the distresses of the country. He conjured those Gen-
tlemen who were connected with the landed interests, to exert
the power which they possessed, to relieve it from its present
dreadful state of depression.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was" not in the House when the Hon.
Member for Sussex (Mr. (hooch) addressed it, but he had
since heard him blamed for having expressed his satisfaction at

the statement of the Noble Marquis. Now if the Hon. Mem-
ber was to be blamed for this, he begged also to take his share
of the blame, for he had listened with the greatest satisfaction
to his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear !)—and he was quite con-
vinced that the plan proposed was better calculated to afford
substantial and permanent relief to the country than any fur-
ther repeal of taxes could be at the present moment. The
lion. member who had just spoken stated that the landholders
who supported the late war deserved the distress into which
they had fallen. He begged also to say upon this part of the
subject that he, so far from taking blaine to himself for hav-
ing supported that war, had always considered it as a matter of
pride. —(Cheers.)--And he would tell that Hon. Member, that
he firmly believed that if that war had not been supported, he
would have have had a much less share of his estate than he
had at present, under all his distress.—(Loud cheering.)—He
had ever supported that war, as a war which protected the
liberties of the people.—(Hear, hear ! from the Opposition.)—
He would repeat that it was a war which protected the liberties
of the people; and he was convinced that if the Gentlemen of
England had not come forward to maintain it manfully, this
country would now have been a province of France.— (Cheers
from each side of the House.)—lie was very much surprised to
hear the Honourable Member for Cumberland and the Honour-
able Member for Cheshire state, that they were not satisfied with
the statement of his Noble Friend, which 'clearly shewed, that
the country was in that prosperous condition of having above
five millions of income over her expenditure. It surely must
be equally satisfactory to know, that we did possess that sum
clear, whether it was to be applied to the repeal of taxes, or
to the establishment of the Sinking Fund. As it appeared
to him, the reduction of debt weuld operate to lessen the dis-
tress of the landed interest, as clearly as that two and two
made four; and he believed that it would be the best and the
surest means of doing so. He would put a case, in which it
must inevitably have the desired effect. Suppose a man to
have an estate of 6or 7,0001. a year, and that he had mort-
gaged it for the sum of 20,0001. surely if the rate of interest
were reduced from 5 per cent. to 4or 3 per cent. the landlord
would be enabled to relieve his tenants in proportion to that re-
duction. When he said that the statement of his Noble Friend
was satisfactory, he wished to make some explanations regard-
ing parts of it. When lie heard that two millions had been
saved by retrenchment, it was impossible that he should not ex-
press his satisfaction ; but he hoped that would not be a reason
why further reductions should not 'be made.—(Hear, hear !)
He hoped that his Noble Friend would not rest on his oars be-
cause so much had been done, but that every further retrench-
ment would be carried into effect as soon as possible, which
was consistent with the safety of the state. it ith regard to
the 'four millions to be borrowed from the Bank, the part of
it which was to be lent to parishes would certainly give him no
satisfaction. What the effect of increasing the amount of the
circulation would be upon the funds he did not know ; but he
was quite sure that no good could arise from the proposed loans
to
.parishes. As to the motion before the. House, he was sur-
prised that the Hon. Member for Cumberland should object to
it. What object had they in going into a Committee, bat that
of seeking the means of preventing too great an influx of corn
after the opening of the ports ? If the Committee produced a
measure which would have that effect, it would perform an im-
portant service to the Agricultural Interest. Feeling. as he did,
that it would be to ruin the credit of the country if any further
taxation were taken off, lie should not be acting under that sense
of duty which always guided him, if he did not express his de-
termination to oppose it.—(Hear hear !)
Mr. RICARDO agreed in the satisfaction expressed by the
Honourable Member, at the statement of the Noble Marquis,
as far as the improvement of the -revenue went; but he did
not agree with him that the amount of the repeal of taxes was
such as ought to satisfy the country. The Honourable Member
appeared to him to have made one great mistake in his calcula-
tions: He said that the Sinking Fund being increased, would
lower the rate of interest, and that landlords would consequent-
ly derive advantages which they could disseminate amongst
their tenants, and thus afford general relief to the agricultural
classes. He agreed that the landlord would derive these advan-
tages, if the Sinking Fund would have the effect which the lion
Member expected' from it, but it would have no such effect.—
He thought the Sinking Fund the greatest support of public
credit ; and if he could have filly security for its application
to the object for which it was designed, it would have no
greater friend than he. But after the experience they had
had of all Sinking Funds,_ a Sir Robert Walpole's Sinking
Fund, and Mr. Pitt's Sinking Fund ; after they had seen the
latter made away by the Right Honourable the Chancellor
of the Exchequer,—he was convinced that a Sinking Fund
could be nothing but a fatal delusion to the people. They
were induced to pay to it in the hope of lessening their debt,
when in point of fact it invariably increased it ; for when it
had accumulated to a-certain extent, the Minister was sure to
apply it to the payment of interests upon loans which went to
make the debt greater. It was said by some, that a Sinking
Fund was necessary to intimidate our enemies ; but how was
that possible, if it was applied to the liquidation of the debt ?
If the present Sinking I and were allowed to go on, he was
sure it would be applied at some future time to the same ob-
jects which had absorbed its predecessors, and there would be
nothing of it left but a reduced surplus of two or three hundred
thousand pounds. He was very much surprised to hear the
Honourable Member for Wiltshire set out with compliment-
ing his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) upon
his principles of political economy, and then to differ with him
upon almost every principle on which he entered.—(Hear, and
a laugh.)—He then alluded to the differences of opinion be-
tween the two Hon. Members whom he had just named. The
first point on which they differed was, the power of the pro-
ducer to shift taxation on the consumer. Another was, in the
degree of respect which they entertained for the public credi-
tor. He begged to state, that he had been misunderstood there
as well as out of doors, as to what he had said upon that point.
Gentlemen misunderstood him if they thought he had denied
that all interests hadlheir share-in the property of the country.
He should have been ashamed ofhimselfif he had said any such
thing. What he said was, that the fundholder had his share in
the whole property of the country, his own being included in
that whole. (The Honourable Member here began to combat
some of the opinions laid down by Mr. Brougham, on a for-
mer night, when the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
made some explanations from his seat which were inaudible.)
If he had misunderstood his Hon. and Learned Friend, his
ears deceived him but as he denied having stated what he
supposed him to have dome' he was bound to suppose that to
be the case. :With regard to the effect of the Agricultural
distress upon the country, instead of the country altoge-
ther being in a state of distress, he considered it to be in
a flourishing condition.—(Hear !)--It was only a few years ago
that great alarm was excited in consequence of the manufac-
turing and commercial interests. He then predicted that a
short time would restore things to their natural course, and the
event justified that prediction.—(Bear, hear, hear !)—He had
now strong hopes that Agriculture would not long remain in
its present depressed state.—(Cheers.)—But there could be
no security for the permanent prosperity of' the Agricultural
interests, while they remained under the influence of such corn
laws as those now in force. lie hoped that some measure
would be determined on for regulating the price of corn, and
for keeping it at .a steady and fair remuneration to the grower.
There were two of the proposals of the Noble Marquis which
could not have his approbation. The one was that of the Bank
advancing four millions of gold to the Government, to be thrown
into the circulation. He would not take into his consideration
the purpose of the Government borrowing this gold, but merely
consider the propriety of the Bank lending it to them at all._
In 1819 he advised the Bank, and he received a rebuke for so
doing from an Hon. Bank Director—that they should rather sell
than purchase gold.. He had now a contrary fear, that they
should sell when they ought to purchase. The Bank now sup-
posed that they had got together enough gold to be adequate to
carrying on the circulation of the country. If they were not
sure of this, he advised them not to be precipitate in putting
four millions more into circulation. Ile believed that the
currency had now acquired a proportion which it ought to
have with all other countries; and he was certain that they
could not put four millions more into circulation without caus-
ing an export that would take off the surplus. Now, if the
Bank had more than enough gold, they were quite'eight in send-
ing it out of the country, so that it would have the effect of
lowering the price of bullion all over the world. He believed
the Bank Directors to be most honourable men, and to have
the purest intentions; but he did not give them credit for the
skill necessary to manage so delicate a subject. He begged
leave now to caution them against hazarding an increased cur-
rency of four millions. He would now state what he thought
would have been the effect of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man's Bill, whom he must not name (Mr. Peel), if it had been
properly acted upon. lie stated before the Committee that ve
per cent. would be the extent of the difference it would make
upon the value of money, and he stilt thought that opinion to
be a sound one. His own system et that period was this.
Then the price of gold was five per cent. higher than paper ;
that is to say—a man with an ounce of bullion could ob-
tain more value for it in the market than another who
went into it with four pounds two shillings in paper. The
question was how to make the value of the two currencies
meet. It was clear that if they could not alter the value of
gold, they must raise the paper five per cent. in value. But
immediately that was done, a man with three pounds seventeen
shillings in paper could purchase as much as the man with an
ounce of gold. The Hon. Member then contended, that if the
Bill had been founded wholly upon that principle, it was clear
that it could only have effected a change of five per cent. Now
the Bill was partly upon that principle, and he believed
the difference very trifling. Time Bill said, that the Bank
should only pay in specie in the year 1823 ; and he '
thought that if the Bank had acted upon that principle, and
made no purchases in gold till this year, the price of bullion
would never /MY: been altered. And when the year 1823

t arrived, they might still have had further time, for specie
payments would neither have been necessary nor required
at that time. If his (Mr. Ricardo's) plan, or the Bill
of the Right Honourable Gentleman, had been strictly acted
upon, the difference in the value of money would not have
exceeded five per cent. He was quite surprised to hear his
Right Honourable Friend opposite (t!r. Huskisson) support
the system of the Noble Marquis lending out money to pa-
rishes. It was so contrary to all reason, that he was sure it
must be abandoned. Ile wished to say a few words more upon
the subject of taxation.—(Hear, hear.)—There were two de-
scriptions of taxes ; one of which fell upon the producer, and,
if the producer came to that House to ask relief, he would say
to him, " You have had the power in your own hands of
avoiding the tax, anti if you have not regulated the produce
to the demand, you must hear the consequence." But there
was another description of taxation, which fell entirely
upon the consumer; and if lie Caine in distress, they ought to
throw open their doors to relieve him. His complaints were
of a very different nature, and deserved the utmost attention.
%Veil, then, if they took of the Malt Tax, he should say they
took it off the consumer.—(Pear, hear.)—lf they took off the
tax on soap, and it was asked whether they took it off
the Agricultural producer or the consumer, he should say
the consumer. But this was an argument with him why taxa-
tion ought to be reduced. Ile saw taxation pressing in this
manner upon the helpless consumer, not indeed with the re-
duplication spoken of by his Hon. and Learned Friend, but it
did press so as to destroy the comforts and the means of a
large class of the people from whom it ought to be removed. It
had been said, that he denied taxation to be an evil ; on the con.
trary, he held it to be a very peat evil, and only differed with
his friends as to the effect which it produced in certain cases.
Many Gentlemen seemed to think that the paper system could
not have been carried on without a depreciation of the currency;
but this he considered a mistake. It might be a wholesome
system notwithstanding the measures of restriction. It had
been said,,that the Agriculturists had received high rents dur-
ing the war. So they .had ; but then they had higher prices
to pay for all articles not produced by themselves. The high
rents were of no benefit to them, except by comparison with
the state of the Stockholder; and in that point of view, un-
doubtedly, the high rents were a benefit to the Landholder ;
for the Stockholder sustained a loss by the altered view of
money, inasmuch as his dividend was not increased proportion-
ably with the depreciation.—(Hear,. hear, hear !) On the
whole, lie was perfectly satisfied that, in a public point of
view, the Stockholder had been is loser rather than a gainer by
the transaction.

111 r. BENETT explained.
Mr. MANNING addressed the House ; but the voice of
the Honourable Member was so low, and there was so much
noise in the House while he was speaking, that it was next to
impossible to hear any distinct sentence in the Gallery. He
was understood to defend the conduct of the Bank, who, he
said, had issued a large quantity of gold coin for the accom-
modation of the public. Ile thought the effect of this, by with-
drawing the paper currency, had rendered the farmer less able
to pay his rent ; but the agricultural distress was not to be at-
tributed to this circumstance. The Inclosure practice, which
had prevailed of late years to a most extraordinary extent, must
have had some influence by increasing the population of the
country.
Mr. SYKES thought the question before the House had been
departed from by several Honourable Members, and he would
endeavour to bring them back to it. The question was, whe-
ther the Agricultural Committee should be re-appointed ? and
when he heard that the effect of their first labours was only
to mystify, he certainly should vote against their continuance,
as he should look for nothing else but a renewed mystifica-
tion in their renewed labours. He was happy to hear the opi-
nions of the Honourable Member for Suffolk (Mr. Gooch),
and those of another Honourable Member, and he trusted
that before the end of the present Session they would have fully
opened their eyes, and would have seen that it was the course
that had been so long taken by this country which had caused
the present distress. He could not see with the Honour-
able Member for . Yorkshire, any source of satisfaction in the
statement of the Noble Marquis. That Noble Marquis had
held out the hope of an excess of five millions of income be-
yond the expenditure; but this had been held out over and
over again by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and every
hope had turned out to be a delusion. Another source of
satisfaction to the Hon. Member for Yorkshire was in the con-
templated rise of stock. To be sure, if' that Hon. Member
were advocating the cause of the stockholder this might be very
satisfactory; but he (Mr. S.) could not see how a rise in the
price of stock would put bread into the mouths of the
starving labourers, or rent into the pockets of, he had al-
most said, the starving Landholders. Yet, as he laid aside
all party feelings on this important subject, he would ad-
mit that there were some passages in the statement of the Noble
Marquis which had his entire concurrence. He (Mr. S ) agreed
that there should be a surplus, whatever might be its name.—
He did not approve of what was called the Sinking Fund, but
whatever the thing might be called, he wished!to see a surplus
of revenue beyond expenditure. He thought also with the
Noble Marquis that much of the distress was attributable to a
superabundance of produce ; but he did not admire the pro-
posed remedy. The burthens must be lightened, and it would
not be sufficient for us to wait for the chance of relief. When
he considered the vote in favour of retrenchment, to which the
House had come last Session, he could not but feel surprise when
he found that all that was proposed to be done was to take
off one shilling per bushel of the tax upon malt ; to lend to
parishes through the medium of Exchequer Bills; and he was
surprised that any man, pretending to be a Statesman, should
broach the latter plan to an English House of Commons. The
effect of it would be to repeal Mr. Peel's Bill, by making a
fresh issue of paper : and it was worthy of remark, that the
borrowers of this paper would be liable to all the laws of ex-
tent ; the seizure of property, and the imprisonment of person,
with the benefit of the insolvent or the bankrupt laws. This
was the relief which was proposed for the Country Gentlemen !
These were the views which met with the unqualified assent of
the Member for Yorkshire! In his (Mr. Sykes's) opinion,
the only possible relief was to be found in the reduction of
taxation ; rn a reduction of the expenses of the Army and
Navy, the Ordnance and the Civil Establishments. The
propriety of such a reduction had been clearly shewn by the
member for Aberdeen ; and although he (NIT. S.) did not
ask that the expenses should be reduced to the scale of 1792,
he did ask that they should bear a proportion to that period,
which at present they certainly did not. The Noble Marquis
had said on a former night tliat a standing army was necessary
to secure the liberties of the country. Now he (Mr. S.) had
heard from some that the liberty of the Press was necessary to
secure those liberties. F'roni others lie had heard that they were
best secured in the due administration of justice ; and he had
heard many other safeguards suggested; but lie never heard. he
thought lie never should have heard from any one, and still less
from a Minister, that the liberties of Englishmen must be se-
cured by a standing Army. When he heard such an opinion
from such a quarter, he could not look for much reduction from
it; and he therefore trusted that the Members opposite would
unite, and laying aside all party feelings, would compel Mini-
sters to adopt measures of economy.
Mr. PEEL said, that the last Speaker had commenced his
address by observing that Honourable Members had deviated
from the question before the House ; and had proposed to bring
them back to it. It was not for him, (Mr. Peel) to give an
opinion as to how far the Hon. Member had succeeded ; but
it that Hon. Member pleased, he (Mr. Peel) would follow
the example rather than the precept. The House would al-
low him to offer a few observations upon a measure which
(properly or not he would not say) had been called after him ;
a measure that had been much discussed, and which was con-
fessedly of the highest importance. He knew not whether
it was altogether relevant to the present question, but
as so much had been said upon it (and not always very rele-
vantly), it was not unnatural that he should desire to be heard
upon it. When he introduced that measure he was not de-
sirous to arrogate to himself a merit, much of which it was
probable belonged to others. The measure in
__question was
not then so unpopular as it has at present. But now that
measure had become unpopular, he was willing to take upon
j himself the responsibility. He would not shelter himself un—
der the large majorities of that House which had sanctioned
the measure—(Elear, hear, hear !)—he would not shield him.
self with that great authority on t - ether side of the House
which had actually pressed the measure—(Cheers),—but he
would state his liens, deliberate opinion, notwithstanding„
he would. not say the clamour, but he could, not say the argu-
ment with which it had been attacked, that considering the si-
tuation of the country at the time the Bill was passed, there
was no alternative; and that the best interests of the country
were consulted in the passing of it.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He
would add too, that in his opinion, but a very small part of' the
depression upon Agriculture was to be ascribed to it; and that
even that small part would have existed had the measure never
originated. Much had been said al:out its pressure upon agri-
culture; but the House was bound to consider, not its partial,
but its general effect.—(Hear„ hear, hear!)—He by no means
undervalued the Agricultural interest. If it could possibly
be considered distinctly from the other great interests, he
admitted that its importance was paramount—(Cheers.)--He
was prepared to prove that thethew general interests of society
had been consulted by that measure, and that Agriculture
itself would in the end sustain no injury from it. W e
all felt, we all complain of present evils ; but we closed our
eyes upon those we had escaped—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He
could not forbear reminding the House of the state of the
country at the time when paper was depreciated. Manufac-
tures were in a state little short of ruin ; and the internal trans
quillity of the country was endangered. The counties of Derby,
Nottingham, Lancaster, and York, especially were in a state of
diitress and commotion ; a state attributed by the Report
of a Committee of that House to the low wages which were

paid in the manufacturing districts. Yet did the country
at that time bear every mark of prosperity. Commerce
apparently flourished, and public buildings were promoting
with all tie signs of public wealth and spirit. But the founda-
tion of this apparent prosperity was not sound, because manu-
factures were in a state of decay. The House would give this
part of the question that attention it commanded. He should
observe that a Petition was presented from Coventry (a plaCe
of considerable importance in the manufacture of ribbands)
in the course of the year 1319, just before the appointment
of the Committee which recommended the return to cash
payments. The Report of the Committee appointed to con-
sider the matter of this petition gave a tolerably clear view
of the general state of manufactures at that time. The Re-
port adverted to the great increase of the Poor Rates, which
it was said would soon become too burthensome to be borne.—
The low wages were not caused by a want of trade, for there
was as much demand for manufactures as there had been before.
In the year preceding (HU), out of 40 English counties, 23 of
them paid a greater sum for poor rates than tee), had paid be-
fore or since. They were then at the MAXIMUM of the rate;
and it was worthy of observation, that the sane cause had pre-
duced nearly the same effect in the reign of Queen Elizabeth.
The aor rates must be considered the canker of national pros-
perity. To address himself, however, to the particular mea-
sure which had called him up. lle had been told at the
time in question, of the effect which it would have upon
11 .branehes, of national prosperity, and especially upcn
the revenue. Now, he fbund the revenue fliurishing, and the
other branches he might say prospering. i,t'hy then should the
present depressed state of Agriculture be attributed to that
measure ? He deeply regretted the depression itself; all
that he contended was, that it had not been occasioned by the
eff_xt of the bill in question. The reduction of the Poor Rates
was an indication of national prosperity ; a reduction which
he attributed in a great measure to this Bill, because its
effeet was a better payment of the lower classes. In every
county out one the Poor Rates had been reduced. Thet
county was Northumberland, and in that, fie depression upcn
Agriculture was less than it was in tiny othe: county. In
Nottingham the reduction had been as much as 18 per cent. ;
and in Sussex, the county in which the least reduction bed
taken place, it was 31 per cent. These, he inferred, were
proofs of national prosperity. He again admitted that a con-
stuidrearlabplreodreudcuee;tiosni al
adr takenfiuctu
fluctuations
inh
atdh e
taken
ne of flaAcegirnicuitls-
price when the currency was unaffected.—[The Hon. Member
here referred to the price of corn at diffizent periods since 1770.]
The mere circumstance of low price was not to be attributed
to an alteration in the value of money. The greatest oppres-
sion arose from foreign importations. A small excess over the
prohibitory average opened the ports, and then a glut was or-
casionee by importation. The consumption of' corn was, he
apprehended, more steady than that of any article of luxury ;
and if so, how could it be contended that foreign importations
did not affect the Agricultural interest ?—(Hear, hear 1)—It was
of no consequence from what source the glut came, if it of the price. This led.him to a consideration of the effect
of importations from Ireland. He was disposed to approve
of the permission for Irish importations ; but if he admitted
that the fears of the agriculturists were well founded, he could
not deny that Irish importations had much influence. It
was known that corn, cultivated in Ireland since the war,
could be grown at a less price there than it could he here ; and
it followed that the depression of England must be increased
by the supply from Ireland. The importations fer the seven
years preceding the year 1814 amounted two millions of
quarters ; and for the seven years following that year, to
seven millions of quarters.—(Hear, hear, hear 1)—In the last
two years of those seven the importations were three of
those seven millions of quarters; and in the last three quar-
ters of a year the importations were 1,500,000 quarters. It
was for the general good that these importations were per-
mitted ; yet he could not but see the consequence of them.
Not so, much, therefore, was to be attributed to foreign im-
portations, and still less to the alteration of the currency. He
was convinced that the ultimate relief of the agriculturists
would be complete. He came now to the last question. He
could not agree with the Hon. member (Mr. Ricardo) in his
calculations upon the price of gold, and in his conclusions from
those calculations. Agriculture would have suffered although
nothing were done to the standard. The Member for Essex
air. Western) had brought the subject before the House in the
year 1816. He chewed the alarming non-payMent of taxes, the
number of provisions taken to enforce their payment, he de-
scribed the distress which then existed, and lie Concluded by
observing, that the taxes could not continue to be 'paid. So
then it was clear that distress existed to a considerable extent
before the passing of the measure in question.--(Hear, hear.)
It was impossible for that distress to have been caused by the
alteration of the currency, though that alteration might have
partially increased it. He did not- deny tnat the withdrawing
of the Country Bank Paper had had some influence ; but the
issues in that quarter were too often the consequence of daring
speculation, and were therefore artificial in all their effects.—
There was no doubt that the Bank of England would have
issued paper afresh, but their doing so would have offered
only a temporary relief, and would have
.Permanently aggra-
vated the mischief. Had the opportunity which presented
itself on the passing of this Bill been lost, it might never have
returned, and we might have no prospect before us but that of
a continuance in our then state. It was for the purpose of
offering these observations in answer to the clamour which
had been raised, rather than for any other object, that he had
offered himself to the notice of the (louse. His opinion on the
principle of the measure was unaltered. He certainly thought
that the plan of an Hon. Member (Mr. Ricardo) might have
succeeded ; but the question was not merely as to the cur-
rency; it was a question as to the prevention of crime. The
forgery of paper had increased to a terrible extent, and every.
effort on the part of the Bank to prevent it had proved unavail-
ing. Besidee, the measure in question had been supported by
the high authority of the Member for Taunton (Alr. Baring.e
The credit of the Bank at that time was at stake; they had re-
trieved it, and had most honourably endeavoured to carry the
Bill into full effect. In conclusion, he could only say, that at
the end of three or four years, we should be enabled to look
back at our exertions on this important subject with well-de-
served satisfaction.—(Cheers.) . .
Mr. .ELLICE, after observing upon the reluctance he 41
ought to feel at addressing the House after the Right Hut,.
Gentleman who had just sat down, said that in the general.
principles of that Right Hon. Gentleman, and of the Hon.
Member (Mr. Ricardo) he fully concurred; but he could not
agree in their data. It had nerer appeared clear to hint, that
the ',rice of gold was a criterion by which to judge of the
price of commodity; if it were, its price must have been af-
fected on tile late alteration of the currency. The effect of
the alteration, be admitted, was-not altogether immediate.'
It had been said, that the distress of 1816 was not occasioned
by the depreciation of Bank paper;- hut large quantities of
gold had been imported at that period ; the Bank paper
had been withdrawn in consequence ; and, as another con-
sequence, the country hands had withdraw,' their paper.—
The Honourable Member adverted to the different issues of
gold by the Betik, and contended that those issues had not
youtiteracted the distress produced by the issue of Bank
paper. In 1819 the Committee sat and found the standard
price of gold at 41. Ss. They admitted the depreciation
to-be the difference beaten the Mint price. and 41. 3s. He
was satisfied that the depreciation in the currency at that
time, instead of being tfore or fire per cent., was near
thirty per cent. It was said, from 1797 to lelo no great de-
preciation took place, hut on that point lie differed from his
Right Honourable Friend. The Hon. Gentleman ;hen al-
luded to the loans anti !::sses which he alleged the country
had sustained in consequeuce. In 1815, when the country
incurred expellee by the return of Boonaparte, the sum of
45,000,0001. was raised, which cost 53,000,0001. of S per cents.
This loan, according to the-Hone Member's calculation, cost
the country, in 1842, 90,000,0031. These statements were
made in defence of the opinion the Hun. Member expressed
in this House on a former occasion. It had been urged that
the county of Northumberland did nut suffer so much in the
general distresses of agriculture as other counties. Tine
cause was this. Providence had blessed that county with the
finest crops of corn ever known, and the farmers found less
difficulty in selling it. In the propu:ition to borrow
4,000,0001, from the Bank for the relief of the Agriculturists,
the Hon. Member cool:' wily see a disposition on the part
of the Right Hoe. Gentleman to job for the publiC in the
stocks. The Right Ilon. Gentleman knew that one shilling
of the money would not he received by the Agriculturist.
He meant nothing disrespectful to that Right Hon.
systemGentle-
nian, but the
long injurious totle public
ofsp
interest.
eculati ng
fie
in
the
not
elSto ee Stocks
sl
awl; th
e
Battle heel[
Bank could not discount at 4 per cent. Upon a general view
of the transactions bettveee the Bank and Government, it
was too obvious that the. public were losers. 'flue sole de-
pendence appeared to he upon the stability of Dank engage-
ments, and it certainly was necessary that some arrangement
should be made by Pat liament on the subject. In the event
of war breaking out between Russia and the Turks, what
would become of the plains of Government ? The Bank might
take alarm at the state of their gold, and all the machinery
of Government would stand still. He expressed a hope that
the Right Hon. Gentleman would make better arrangements
with the Bank in future, and get them to discount at four
instead of five per cent. The Hon. Member concluded by
declaring that reduction of taxation could only afford relief
to the country.

Mr. IHISRISSON said, he should not long detain the
House. He was surprised to hear himself charged with
being the author of the Report. The fact was this: The
Committee did him the honour to regnest he would draw
up a Report in the spirit of tlitsir Resolutions. He appeal-
ed to Gentlemen who were on the Committee, to say, whe,
then he did not decline the task; but they pressed it so