The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-26 00:00:00

to our just desire for an honourable arrangement, but
tor their own interest. Ile looked forward to a time
when good sense would guide the actions of (he Govern-
ment of Spain, and that they would not think it inc at-
sistnt with their own honour to hear and receive
the justilcation of Sir Henry Bulvver from the asper-
sions so unjustly cast upon his character.— (Hear,
hear.) Before he sat down he might take that oppor.
tunity of mentioning, in regard to a question put to him
on a previous evening, respecting the communications
that had taken place between the French Government
and this country, in regard to the expedition sent to
Rome, that he was now able to lay upon the table of tl4e
House all the communications between the two countries
in reference to the affairs of I'aly.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the Lord Mayor and Common Council of the City
of London in favoor of the Alteration of Oaths Bill.
The Noble Marquis also laid upon the table of the
House two returns from the Palace Court, ordered by
their Lordships.

PACKET COMIUNICATION BETWEEN SCOT.

LAND AND IRELAND.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved that a Se-
lect Committee be appointed to inquire into the expe-
diency of removing the Packet Station and communica-
tion between the South-west of Scotland and the North
of Ireland, and to ascertain the public grounds upon
which the harbours of Port Patrick and Donaghariee are
to be abandoned, and those harbours, which cost the
country 400,0001., for the sake of a trifling saving, to
substitute a long sea voyage of 90 miles from
Greenock to Belfast, which is now the object of her Ma.
,jesty's Government; and to report thereon to the Hou-c
The question resolved itself into first, the expediency
and advantage of a short passage; 2dly, the wisdom and
prudence of abandoning it; and lastly, the saving to be
thereby effected. On the first two points it was well
known that all previous Governments had been agreed,
and that at very great expense they had kept up this
passage. He believed that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer himself at this moment was of opinion that it
was the safest and most convenient, and that if he could
follow his own convictions it would not be interfered
with or abandoned. For his own part, he did not
exactly understand with what department of the Go-
vernment the change originated. The postal com-
munications of these ports was formerly under the
control of the Admiralty; he supposed it was now under
the Noble Marquis the Postmaster-General. He was
certainly very much surprised when he heard of the in-
tention to break up this packet station, and had felt it
to be his duty to accompany a numerous and respectable
deputation to Lord J. Russell, in order to lay the facts of
the case before him, and, if possible, to induce the Go-
vernment to reconsider their decision. The able speeches
made on that occasion by gentlemen fully conversant
with the question, and the documents they had adduced,
to all of which publicity had been given by the press,
rendered it unnecessary for him to detain their Lord-
ships by any lengthened statement. The answer of Lord
J. Rus,zell was in effect that he could not give any deci-
sive reply. He supposed the Nohl, Lord wanted time
to confer with his colleagues. He had since received
the following letter from the Noble Lord:—

" Chesham-place, June 22, 1849.
"My Lord,—Upon consideration of the memorial re-
specting the mail communication from Portpatrick to
Donaghadee, the Government have come to the decision
to abandon the postal route between those two places.
The harbours will be attended to by the Admiralty, but
it is not thought advisable to continue the expense of
the packets when the service can be more cheaply pro-
vided for.

"I have the honour, &c..

"J. RUSSELL."
Now he thought he had a right to ask in what way the
Admiralty were to keep up the harbours, and what ad-
ditional expense would arise from continuing the packets.
The Queen's subjects could not make the passage in
open boats, and after having, by a considerable expendi-
ture within the last two or three years, rendered the
harbour fit for steam-vessels, he asked why it should now
be abandoned, when the present voyage of three hours
could be reduced to one hour and a quarter? The very
small sum at which the mails could now he carried con-
stituted certainly a sufficient reason for a Parliamentary
inquiry into the subject, especially after they had ex-
pended nearly half a million on the harbour. He believed
that if the Government carried out its intentions in the
course of a year or two they would find out the impolicy
of carrying the mails 90 miles by sea from Greenock to
Belfast, instead of the short passage between these two
ports; and unless, in the meantime, they were attended
to, they would be found choked up, and requiring another
outlay to bring them into the efficient state in which
they now were. He did not think that for the miserable
saving of some three or four thousand pounds a year
the inhabitants of that part of the country—nay, of the
country at large—should be deprived of the benefit of
the existing postal arrangements, and he added, that
the Noble Marquis (Clanricarde), as an Irish-
man, should not be a party to such a paltry saving, to
anything that would impoverish a district which, in ad-
dition to its former burdens, was now subject to a rare
in aid. In fact, such was the effect of the announcement
that the Government intended to abandon the mails, that
in one instance three houses, valued at 450/., bad been
already put up at auction, end only 55/. offered for them,
the owner wishiug to go to America. He regretted that
such a policy should be pursued, and still more that the
Government did not advise her Majesty to visit Ireland.
He was certain that the moment she set her foot on the
Emerald Isle she would be received with such a cry of
joy that she would forget. at least for the time. any other
purr or her dominions. His fellow-countrymen were
more sinned against than sinning—and it would be the
happiest day they had ever seen it her Majesty's ad-
visers, overlookiig all the pretexts on which a royal
visit had been from time to time delayed, would c0w...el
her to go among her Irish subjects. This might be a di-
gres.ion, but, returning to the motion for a Select Cora
rnittee, he thought he had made out a suffic;ent case for
inquiry, and in conclusion he begged to move the motion
of which ho had given notic
Lord CA WDOR approved of the motion, and merely
rose to move an addition to the inquiry proposed by the
Noble Marquis. Last year, suddenly arid without any
reason being assigned for the change, the mail commu-
ideation between Waterford and Milford Haven, a com-
munication which had continued for fifty years, and
which was of great public utility, had been cut off.
Great dissatisfaction and inconvenience had been caused,
and he therefore wished to add words to the motion
which would bring this case also before the Select Com-
mittee.
The Earl of HADDING TON said that when he was
in office the principle acted upon in deciding between a
long land passage and a short sea passage, and short
land passage and long sea passage, was to give the pre-
ference to the former. It was so long since his atten-
tion had been directed to the subject, that he did not
remember the fact, but he thought that the Noble Mar•
quis had made out a sufficient case for an inquiry, and
he would add that he had never heard of any ships
being lost.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that in not
agreeing with the motion of his Noble Friend (tho Mar-
quis of Londonderry), or to the amendment of the Noble
Earl opposite (the Earl of Cawdor), he had no desire to
withhold from their Lordships any information con-
nected with the proposed change of packet station, but
the subject was one which in no degree, he contended,
ought to be submitted to a Committee of Inquiry. There
were no theories in antagonism, nor was there
any new system to be adopted. The question was one
which could be at once decided on. Ho assured their
Lordships that the change of packet had not been
addicted on insufficient views of economy or ill-
judged parsimony, but after mature deliberation, and
with an anxious desire to promote the best interest
of the public service. There were circumstances
which, in the case of steam-packet communication,
bound the Government to look not only to the cost
and expenditure, but to the general benefit of the
country, but in the case of the Portpatrick and
D maghadee steam-packet stations, they were in no
way bound to regard the personal opinion of interested
parties. He quite agreed, that as a general principle,
the shortest sea passage that could be obtained was the
most desirable; but the rule was liable to modification,
and there was another principle which could not be over
looked, namely, the observance of the routes which public
opinion and public experience pointed out as the best to
be adopted. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to
show that the effect of the change of postal communi-
cation, as proposed by the Government, would be most
beneficial for the correspondence, and that the time oc •
cupied in the transit from Glasgow and Paisley to Bel-
fast, would be not only lessened four Hours, but that the
letters would reach sufficiently early for the first deli-
very. If Portpatrick were continued, an increase of cx
pendituro would be required to keep up the proper means
of inter-communication, and that was a proceeding he
did not feel justified in recommending for the convenience
of a small portion of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Sir
John Rennie's opinion with regard to Portpatrick Har-
bour was likely to be more or less biassed by the parti-
cular circumstance of his having been the civil engineer
of the works there; and it certainly was contradicted by
the evidence of experienced naval officers, appointed to
inquire into the subject. For the purpose of keeping up
the Post-office traffic, there was no necessity for the
continuancethat ofth
ethose h
dhraarwbaolu harbours, and
the
ed
grantit lva was absurdotld e j o.
suppose
riously affect the north of Ireland, so as to prevent pay.
ment of the rate in aid.

After some brief observations from the Earl of
GALLOWAY,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY replied, with•
drawing his motion for the Committee, in consequence
of the scanty attendance of Peers, but expressing his in-
tention to bring forward the subject again on a future
day, by moving an address to her Majesty for copies of
certain correspondence which had passed between the
Post-office authorities and the parties who contracted for
carrying the mails.

THE INCIMIBERED ESTATES BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL moved the order of the day for
goinc, into Committee on this Bill, and stated, that
on bringing up the report, he would move a proviso
to one of the clauses, limiting the power of the Com•
missioners to certain classes of applications by incuce7
brancers.

The Bill then passed through Committee, and was or.
dered to be reported.
The County Cess (Ireland) Dill was read a third time,
and passed.
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 25.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before
Four o'clock.

CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' amendments to the following Bills were
considered and agreed to:—
LeAs and Thirsk Railway (Power to guarantee Inte-
rest on certain Shares, &c.)
Whittlesey St. Mary and Whittlesey
St. Andrew Union
Of Parishes, and for Improving the Town 9
f

RE'ADINCrS.
following Bids were read a tT,ird time ni-id passed:
L-ancas!er and Preston Junction yActs
Aini,nthnerit (Posters to alter Tolls, and for appoint-
rya nt f o.llcer,).
Taff V.rl, Railway- (Extension in Merthyr Tydfil).
Tyne Ri7er Conservancy.
illiams's
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS.
The following R p iris were considered and agreed to:
Airdrie Police and 'Municipal Bill.
Flunwell Vent to Hastings 'Turnpike Road Bill.
PETITIONS.
The Sheriffs of London and Middlesex appeared at
the bar and presented a petition from the Lord Mayor,
Aldermen, and Corporation of the City of London in
favour of the B-inkruptcy Bill ; also a petition against
the Marriage Bill.
Mr. LAW presented a petition from the Irish Society
against the Leasehold Tenure of Lands (Ireland) Bill,
an e. praying to be heard by counsel at the bar of the
House.

Mr. DEEDES presented petitions from Bromley and
other places against trading in seduction and prosti-
tution.
Mr. W. BROWN presented a petition from Manches-
ter in favour of the Bankruptcy rm.
Mr. HALE presented a petition from Gloucester
against the Attorney's certificate duty.
Mr. ALEXANDER HASTIE presented a petition
from Glesgow against the Marriage Bill.
Mr. CARDWELL presented a petition from Liver-
pool, suggesting a clause to be inserted into the Bank-
ruptcy Bill, with respect to the arrest of debtors.
Mr. FL BROWN presented a petition from Stirling
in favour of the Health of Towns (Scotland) Bill.
COLLIERY EXPLOSION AT ST. HELEN'S.
Mr. WYLD begged to ask the Secretary of State if
he had received any official intelligence respecting the
explosion of a coal mine at St. Helen's, which happened
a day or two ago?
Sir GEORGE GREY said he had not received any
intelligence, official or otherwise, of any accident of that
kind at St. Helen's, though he had heard of the cir-
cumstance.
Mr. WYLD then asked (as we understood) if the
Right Hon. Baronet would have any objection to lay on
the table of the House the official correspondence re-
specting the explosion at Hebburn.
Sir GEORGE GREY said he would shortly lay the
papers on the table of the House.
PETITION OF MR. HERCULES HARRIS.
Mr. ANSTEY presented a petition from Mr. Hercules
Harris, a member of the Irish bar, who stated he was
counsel for the plaintiff in a late action of replevin. The
action had reference to the recovery of a pour-rate; and
the petitioner complained that, having prepared a plea
questioning the legality of the rate for which the distress
was levied, the Judges of the Court of Common Pleas
in Dublin refused to allow the plea to be argued.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. OSBORNE asked the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government if he had any objection to state to the
House who were the three Commissioners whom he pro-
posed to appoint under the Incumbered Estates (Ireland)
Bill?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped to be able to do so
before the session closed.
THE IRISH CHURCH.
Mr. ROCHE wished to ask the Hen. Member for
Montrose a question relative to two motions on the
paper for the 10th of July. Hie Hon. Friend, the
Member for Middlesex, had a motion on the paper refer-
ring to the Irish Church; and his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber for Montrose, had a motion on the paper before that
relating to British Guiana. Now the question he wished
to ask the Hon. Member was, whether he would give
way in favour of the motion for an inquiry into the state
of the Irish Church.
Mr. HUME said ne man was more anxious that the
question of the Irish Church should be speedily disposed
of than he was, but it must be remembered that the
Government of British Guiana was at a stand-still, and
he therefore could not give way, unless Government
would give him a day for his own motion.
Mr. REYNOLDS suggested that the Hon. Member
could bring his motion on to-morrow.
Mr. HUME could not do that; but he would discharge
his notice, and bring the motion forward on going into
Supply.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL sail it must not be sup-
posed that he was a party to this arrangement.
The SPEAKER remarked that it would be irregular
to discharge the notice then.
The subject then dropped.
TRANSPORTATION (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion tor the third reading of this B:11,
Mr. NAPIER said he should not take up the
time of the House with any lengthened observations at
this stage of the Bill, but he was bound to protest against
this ex post facto mode of legislating in cases of con-
victed criminals. It was decidedly uncenstitutiocal,
He thought the measure most uncalled fur and unconsti-
tutional, and he should therefore oppose the third
reading.
Colonel RAWDON also opposed the third reading
of the Bill, and trusted that the House would never
sanction a measure containing such provisions.
Mr. SPOONER said it was his intention to vote
against the Bill. The question involved in it was a
great constitutional one, and it was to his mind
an infraction of the constitution to bring in
any Bill to enact an ex po.,t facto law, and
which, besides, would have the effect of aggravating
instead of mitigating the punishrw-nt of the pi r,tins at
whom-It was- aimed.--- lie complained that no necessity
had been shoe n for such a measure. It was true doubts
had arisen in the highest legal quarters with respect to
the right of the Crown to tracsport theseparties; but where
doubts existed in such grave eases it was customary to
give the accused the benefit of them.—(ilear, hear.)
The Attorney-Gt neral, he believed, h ,c 1 failed to show
sufficient c.tuae why the house should pass this mete ure.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, that as far as he could see
both the Honourable Gentleman who had just spoken
had arrived at the cone!usion that the case was so
clear that there was no need of discussion about
it. The Honourable Gentleman had said that
this Bill had come before the 8., use- sanctioned by
the opinions of the high judicial authorities of the land,
but he assured the House that no hesitation had existed
in the minds of these authorities; but as there were
*aid to be doubts existing on the subject, they had ad-
vised that such a 8.11 should be introduced. He must
remind the House again that the position in which these
parties stood was that of men whose lives were forfeited
to the laws of the country. It is only at this moment by
the mercy of the Crown that they are at present able to
petition. lie must say that it was quite a mistake to
say that this Bill was intended as au aggravation of
punishment.
Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR said he quite agreed
with the regret which had been expressed by
an Hon. Gentleman that so much extraneous
matter had been introduced into this debate.
lie had refrained from mingling in this debate
as he did from all Irish debates. He thought it would
be better if this matter were confined entirely to the
Gentleman who had managed the measure.
Mr. SHAH NIAN CRA WFORD wished to separate
the matter from Ireland and Irish Members, and
to argue it on constitutional grounds.—([lsar, hear.)
The tact was that the House had untertaken to interpose
between the prisoners and the courts of law. He would
appeal to those Members who were in the habit of sup-
porting the rights of the Crown. Ile would appeal to
the Hon. Member for Sheffield; and this appeal he
might safely make, as although he was largely interested
in Ireland, he represented a large constituency which
was purely British, and he trusted that it would be re-
sponded to rightly.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide.")
Mr. REYNOLDS said, that as this was the last time
when he should have an opportunity of speaking upon
this question, as this was the last means that could be
adopted before this measure passed into law, as this was
the last act of the drama, he was, he confessed, surprised
at the endeavours which were made to prevent one Irish
Member from speaking. He was anxious to say that in
voting against this Bill they were act voting against an
act of mercy. The contrary was the case. So long as
the prisoners were to be confined within the realm less
ground of complaint would remain, but such was not
likely to be the case. Did the Chancellor of
the Exchequer ever attempt to put the expenses
of this prosecution on the debit side of
the account lie would be a little more careful of in-
curring any further. He had no hesitation in saying
that the attempt of the Government to put down five
men had not cost less than a million of the public
inoney.—(Hear, hear.) Why, had they not been
obliged to keep upwards of 30,000 troops in the
country? That body of men had cost upwards of half
a miltion, and it was proved that the army had cost more
than it did two years before. Taking those with the
cost of the constabulary, and the other necessary ex-
penses, it would appear that he had not been guilty
of any great exaggeration in making this
statement. Having stated this much on this the last op-
portunity of opposing the Bill, be should offer no further
opposition to it, and content himself with simply record-
ing his vote.
The House then divided, when there appeared—.
For the amendment ... 27
Against it ... 159
Majority
e. • ..•
... —132
Mr. ANSTEY moved as an amendment, at line 15, of
page 1, to emit the word " transportation," and insert
" impisonment during the Queen's pleasure, or banish-
ment." There could be no doubt that transportation
was a worse punishment than death itself. He
would not inquire how far confinement during the
Queen's pleasure fell shoat of that; a Jew years or a few
months might deterenine it, but by the large construction
of the words it might extend to the natural life of
those unfortunate gentlemen. The Bishop of Tasmania
stated in his repert, for which he received the thanks of
Earl Grey, that although the rystem of punishment now
followed in Van Diemen's Land was superior to any that
had preceded it, ye t it had given rise to abominableiv
i
practices, and that nothing but a commission
of `1
inquiry from England, with full powers
in-
vestigation would ever bring them eur ely to light.
The Honourable Gentleman said, the most di-gust.
ing crimes that ever stained the character of man
,
were perpetrated in the prisoners' barracks at Ho-
bart Town without
least possible way of
the L''Cci-e.ral elieePti •
this Bill, and it a +mild i .
preventing them."
atise.t to consign Mr. Sint.% •En ree
possible for the Honsie,
to that infamous cenfieeistleca,
utg-
hT(h)feesqyusallei tr,niu_riwyt ew:fav,,suzietauf.,ttti uafnnoi:r-
formity of punishment, II
the Right lion. Gentleman
the Home Department cla7di net re...lie
on in
favour of any one conseee roils the system in which
(M on their arrival, necessarily.satnendwien,reentstin-'ur7bl.slvti'ltulzeiteel
(Mr. Anstey) proposed b has
tQueetrib'so pleasure for trans-
during
imprisonment
Hon. Baronet (Sir
tation for life.
He hoped
por
W. Molesworth) did not consider that there was a differ-,
English, and
more, between Irish,
American rebels—nay
more, that the latter be rewarded
The ATTORNEY-.
These pezkas 'iti‘ik.:ll,lLL oppos o motion.
been 09E117010 91 high arem and

Gov rt4nent wishing to act leniently towards then],
and is doubt exisrim; as to whether the Government hod
the power or not to do so, tlAs Government wished t°
r,ru-ve it; but the Hon. and Learned Gentleman wiadira
the Covernment to ad' two worsts vrith respect
persons who had thus been committed of high
t-re2son, namely, either to hang or to impriso3
them. Now the argument was 50 absurd tbsl
he was sure it would not avail with tbill
House. The G.olernrnent merely wisfit d to assimilate
the Irish to the English law in this respect; and be
trusted the Erman would do nothing to restrict the pre.
rcgative of mercy.
Mr. LAWLESS inquired what might be done by ihe
Government after these i.arties had been transported ?,
The ATTORNEY- GENERAL replied that it wool'
be most improper to ans‘ier the question.—(flear.)
After some observations from Dr. POWER and Par'
DICKSON, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there' appeared—
For the amendment 2l
Against it
146
Majority against it -125
The amendment was accordingly lost.
On the question that the Bill do now pass having bee
put,_ _ _

Mr. LAWLESS said that although he opposed the
Bill, no more loyal man existed than himself; and now
that the measure was carried, he once more felt it to be
his duty to implore her Majesty's Ministers to sh°W
mercy towards the prisoners.
Lord J. RUSSELL said although there had hcell
much said in the course of this debate that might natu;
rally have led to the expression of strong opinions 01
the offence of which those persons had been lotto
guilty—that of high treason—yet he thought that the
House generally would agree with him that her Majesty 'e
Ministers had carefully abstained from s lying anything
too characterise the offence. He must say that they bad
so refrained in spite of the temptations, or rather Ine
provocation offered to them in the speeches of some
Hon. Members, which raised the opinion that the au;
meter of the offence was inconsistent with the charge °I
the judge and the verdict of the jury. He had only t°
say that he believed the :deice which had been given to
her Majesty was that of mercy—(Hear, hear)-o°d
,
that in awarding punishment, the feeling of Government
was not a vindictive one; but a feeting that, if the
punishment were lighter than the offence merited, theft
would be chargeable with not taking proper precaution'
fur the peace of Ireland. However painful it might be
to them to inflict a severe sentence, they had no alterntr
tive but to award such a punishment as would afford 5,
warning against the repetiti m of an offence which would
endanger the tranquillity and security of Ireland.
The Bill, after a few words from Mr. ANSTEY, wag
then pas,ed.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the root
Relief (Ireland) Bill; Mr. Bernal in the chair.
Mr. STAFFORD rose and said that they were at It
loss to know at what stage they should commence this
Bill, owing to the absurd course pursued by the Hon.
Member (Mr. John O'Connell) in moving the exclusion
of strangers. With respect to the maximum rate pro•
.
posed by the Bill, he was opposed to it, seeing that it
had failed in this country. He found that the debt of
all the unions in Ireland amounted to somewhere about
6,500,0001., and that the money was chiefly owing by the
most distressed unions, and by this maximum rate they,
show to the unions they should not have the support of
their own poor. For these reasons he must take the
sense of the Committee against this clause.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman bad
an opportunity of inflicting upon the House a second
time an additional proof of his self-sufficiency, prosiness,
and emptiness. He looked upon the maximum rate as
being too high.
Sir JOHN YOUNG supported the proposition of the
Government. He suggested that, in addition to the ads
vantages to be aff irded to the poor in Ireland, under this
Bill, they should also increase the facilities of the. svork•
houses in Ireland. He considered in-door relief the best
and necessary mode of alleviating the distress. The
distribution of food out of doors preserved life;_ but, as
they were without clothing, they were exposed _to a!'
tacks of disease which was fatal in their state of desti-
tution.

Mr. CLEMENTS said he did not think the maiimure,
rate of seven shillings before aid was extended was not
sufficient guarantee, because all that was required was,
that due diligence should be used in the collection of the
maximum rate of st yen shillings in the pound: The
electoral division was, under this Bill, bound to contri-
bute two shillings in the pound upon the net annual
value, beyond the five shillings for local necessities.
This would have the effect of preventing capitalists frominvesting money in the cultivation of the land. In fact,
this Bill, which provides for extraneous aid. had
.e
pre-
vented a party from purchasing an estate in Ulster, b.n
beg
c tuse he was unwilling to incur the responsibility of being
liable to contribute poor rates to districts over which_
had no control. The great evil at present was, that the
people of Ireland could not see their way out of their
difficulties, and this rate of two shillings upon the union
would increase that, and, therefore, he should give his
support to the amendment.
Mr. FAGAN said he considered this proposed in-
creased rating had the effect of throwing ground out
of
cultivation. He thought it was necessary to have a max-
imum imuco rate fixed, and for that reason be had, and would
continue to support the proposal of the Government.
Mr. H. HERBERT said he would gladly accept the
guarantee, but he did not consider it worth more than
the paper it was written upon. They had resources
now left; they would not revert to the con-acre. Tho
farmers could not, as formerly, support the poor by vo.
luntary charity, because they were themselves reduced
to a distreped condition. Neither could the -gentry
kfford relief from want of means. It was therefore fal-
lacious to say, as the Noble Lord had done, that when
they reached the maximum they might return to their
termer resources. Unless the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government gave them a guarantee as to what be
should do when the maximum rate was exhausted, he
certainly should vote for the amendment of his lion.
Friend.
Mr. GROGAN support -d the amendment. They
were, in his opinion, doing a most serious injury to the
people of Ireland, by legislating for them as if tbe
whole of the country was like the western portion of it,
when the facts were otherwise. Ho denounced the 25.
union rate to be raised, in addition to the 55., as most
mischievous, and for his part he preferred 75., or even
9s. in the pound at once, to the plan now proposed.
It was quite clear the mepsure proposed had not given
confidence to the people, for emigration was going on
this year even more rapidly than the last.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS believed, that bad the
measure suggested last year by the Irish Members to the
Government been adopted, emigration would not have
gone on as it had since dene, or be so much increased in
the present year. Then as to the objection raised that
the maximum rate proposed by the Bill would not be
sufficient, h- had only to refer the House to what had
been already collected. Of 130 unions in Ireland, out of
the entire number there was not one In which 7s. in the
pound was collected; there were only 'seven in which
ss. in the pound was got in, and eleven in which 7s.
was expended. The argument of the Hon. Member for
Leitrim was that 7s. in the pound would Rot restore con-
tid-nee, but surely if that were to be the result what must
be the consequence if an unlimited rate was to be pro•
poscd. He contended that a maximum rate, such as
that proposed by the Hon. Member for the City of Dub-
lin would be most disastrous, and for his part it appeared
t, him to be impossible that the social and moral condi-
tion of the people of Ireland could improve unless con-
fidence were restored, which could only be done by such
a measure as that now proposed.
Sir JOHN WALSH complained that the House was
not favoured during the debate with the opinions of any
one Member of her Majesty's Ministers. He believed
that in a large portion of Ireland the maximum rate
would not be required at all—but in the distressed unions
it would be perfectly nugatory. Some limit, how-
ever, he contended, ought to be put to the claims
of those who demanded relief, or the whole frame
of society would be destroyed.—(Hear, hear.) The
poor-law had added to that destitution and misery in
Ireland which it was intended to lessen. It appeared to
him to be impossible not to conclude, from the papers
before the House, three-fourths of the distress had been
created by the levying of the rates. The peasantry were
reduced to beggary by the mode adopted for relieving
the public distress. He had only risen to explain why
be had come to a conclusion different to that of some of
his friends with whom he usually acted, and that be
intended to vote for the maximum rate proposed by
Government.
Mr. CORNWALL LEWIS said that the Hon.
Member who had just addressed the House had com-
plained that no member of the Government had risen to
express his opinions on the question before them; but he
would remind the lion. Member that it was the less
necessary that should be done at present, as Government..
had already expressed its views on the subject. They
had, however, had the advantage that evening of hearing
the matter discussed by several Irish Members; but be
confessed that he had heard no answer given to the
speech of the Hon. Member for Cavan (Sir J. Young).
It had been contended that there was no precedent for a
maximum rate. In the case of the highway-rate in
England there was a maximum rate, and so far that was
a precedent, but it was on a different subject, and he
Jaw of England there was no
ad-
mitted it was not therefore a precedent. The only other
unty of Surrey
precedent was that referred to by
Lewis)
Hon. Member for
Northampton. and he (Mr. C. Lewis) would call attention
intoatxhiimsucmaser.aUte,ndbeurt tihnetreoc%
and another
In 1796 an Act was passed lessening the maxi.
county a maximum rate hadbeen fixed in the last cen-
and in 1812, at the period of the greatest depreci•
mt u .
dos
fet intohtn:, oa I tdh
maximum.
dc
mu rirt et innegAy
bttahhnaedtroetnhwi
enags further depreciation
the questio of prec e-
tention to the conditiond in which,
question of a maximum
peculiar grounds, he would call at-
must rest on its own
the west of Ireland an
ea, and °delaying for a series of years,
a portion of the south has been
parts of Ireland.their houses, and some •
placed, tenants l •
Landlordsers
spreadin spreading couldthem
notsel
America going to
vegse
to vtbereidri ffreernetnst,
and that counts. almost resembled the condition of one
subjected to an
invading army. Suggestions were cons-
entmicated to Government from various quarters, that it
necessary to fit a rate beyond which taxation
~ttwould
d not go, or othervviso it was felt that the land
not be cultivated. Ac log on the advice of the
Commissioners and persons having local
I aowledge, the Government bad come to the determi-
nation of fixing a maximum rate. If a rate of five
shil-
had been rarely collected in the distressed unions
they could hardly expect that a rate of five shillings
could be increased. Therefore, by fixing a rate of five
shillings, and a rate-in-aid of two shillings, they gave a
confidence to ratepayers that, whatever might be the
exigencies of future years, a rate of taxation beyond
that would not t e imposed. He thought the fears of
Hon. Members on that subject had been greatly exag-
gerated: The necessity of restoring confidence in the
southern and western unions was never of more import-
anci) 111141 tit the genial In011aCill• Who Um. Motet