The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-12 00:00:00

the House to understand me not as stating them in the way
of producing any general immediate saving to the public—
still as producing something—not, however, so greitt a
something as might have been expected, for undoubtedly it
will be necessary to provide for the persons thrown out of
office by making them an allowance. I shall state
them and submit them to the House, principally
as effects the patronage of the Crown. The
offices of the vice-treasurer of Irerand, the lieutenant.
general, the clerk of delivery of the ordnance, the auditor
of the civil list, the treasurer of the Military College, the
treasurer of the Military Asylum, and the resident sur-
veyor,—iM all 63. Then tite King's stationer of Ireland,
and four clerks of the privy seal, with other hands on the
establishment, two victualling board commissioners, two
commissioners of the navy, the superintendent of trans-
port,t, the paymasters of the marines, seven officers of the
dockyards, besides seventy-one persons in the dock-yard,
holding places of from 601. to 6001. per annum, the hus-
band of the 41 per cent. duties, one inspectorship of
stamps, owing to a vacancy at Manchester, the receiver-
general of Scotland, forty-six receivers-general of Eng-
land, the commissioner of sequestration for the claims of
the sufferers of St. Domingo, and the paymaster of the
American and Dutch officers,—in all 210 places, which
might be reduced by the assistance of the legislature.—
(Cheers.) My Noble Friend at the bead of the Colonial
Department considers that he can adopt -all the
recommendations we may suggest as to inquiring
into the colonial establishment of the country, and he
is also sure that in going through the other offic a similar
reductions can be made. The Lord Chancellor is like-
wise of opinion that very considerable reductions can
be made in his department. Thus far, as regards the
patronage of the Crown; and when I have been taunted
with sayingl thought tbeGovernmentought not to be carried
on any longer on the principle of patronage, this is the
answer I make to that statement. Having said so much, I
now apply myself to the financial statement. The mode
in which I estimate the supplies is the usual mode—
that is, I shall compare the supplies with the
revenues of the last year, and then make such propo-
sal as seems to me right. The amount of charges for the
present year are 46,850,000/. I mean with the interest
of the debt, Exchequer Bills, and the whole of the charges.
The income of 1830 amounted to 813,060,0001. ; but from
this there was to be deducted the amount received for taxes
on beer, cider, and a part of sugar during the last year, which
will not be received this year, which would reduce it to
47,150,0001. Then deducting from that 47,150,000/,
the charge which I have stated of 46,850,000/., the sur-
plus which remains is 300,000/. Sir, I have never been
an advocate for a large sinking fund, or a large surplus
revenue, but I do admit that 300,0004 is coming rather
too near the mark. I know that lam about to address
the House under an expectation on the part of the country
that great reductions of taxes are be made—an expectation
which, though not founded upon the state of the
revenue, is nevertheless well founded upon the ne-
cessities of the country ;—and as much as possible
a considerable reduction of those taxes must be
made which press on the country. I do not know that
there ever was a period within my memory in which a
reduction of taxes might be made with much greater
effect, and with far greater relief, than at the present
moment. It is when the manufacturing industry of the
country is going on in a steady progressive state of improve-
ment, that a reduction of taxes affecting that class of people
must be productive of great stimulus and encouragement.
Now the object I have in view is, of course, to relieve as
much as I can the poor labouring classes. How,
then, is this to he done ? Is it possible
to do this by taking off taxes that press
directly on them ? lam sorry to say it is not, for I re-
gret to state that their situation is such that they con-
sume but few taxable commodities. I believe the
b.st mode of relieving the labouring classes of
this community, or of any community, is by giving
them employment; and the only reduction of taxes there
can be made is to reduce those that can be conducive of
affording them that employment. It is with this view
I have considered attentively the whole of the taxation of
the country, and though it is impossible for me, in the
present state of the finances, to reduce to any large extent
taxation, yet, I hope, I shall be able to propose such an altera-
tion of the mode in which the taxation is levied, as will give
great relief to the industry of the country, and promote
the prosperity of all our industrious classes. Looking at
the taxes I have classed them three ways. The first etas
that requires the attention of Government are those
taxes which by.their largeness in amount diminish the
receipt of the revenue; that is to say, where they
are so large as to diminish the consumption of the
article. These are the first that ought to be attended to.
The second class is that which is composed of those
which press unequally on the population—taxes
which press on one part of the community and
not on the whole. The third class of taxes impor-
tantly requiring to be attended to, are taxes interfering
with the manufacturers, and taking much more from the
people than they can allow. It is upon these three classes
any man considering the state of the country will lie
of opinion we ought to' act, if he wishes to reduce
taxation for the improvement of the state of
the rottntry. Having stated these as the ge-
neral views on which I mean to make the financial
statement, I should not do justice to the Hon. Member
Apposite for Queen's County if I did not acknowledge
that I have taken a great deal of my statement
from his calculation. I shall now first enumerate
the taxes! mean to reduce, and then state the amount
which the revenue will be reduced by taking them off.
In the first class the first tax, which by its amount
does not produce so much as it ought, I• clearly think is
tobacco. On looking through the receipts of the to-
bacco tax, the House mill find it has varied in a most ex-
traordinary manner, exactly according to the increase
or diminution of duty upon it. I propose to
make a considerable reduction in the tax upon
this article. It is not only that by making
this reduction the revenue will suffer but very
little in comparison to the relief that will be afforded, but
it will have the effect pretty nearly (indeed as far as my in-
formation goes entirely) of putting a stop to smuggling.
Great relief will be afforded by this reduction not only to
England, but particularly to Ireland, where the article is con

sumed to a great extent by almost all the lower classes of
society. I propose then to reduce the duty on raw
tobacco, which is 3s. to Is. 6d. ; and a duty upon manu-
factured tobacco which is 9s. to 4s. 6d. Before Igo
farther, I may just advert to a motion of mine, which is
before theHouse,respecting the growth of tobacco in Irelanil.
I do not mean to prohibit the growth of tobacco in Ireland ;
nor do I mean to afford it additional protection to what it
now has. To afford it protection would be to encourage the
growth of it; and I do think it could be encouraged
without affording it great protection.—(Hear, hear.)=-
Now, Sir, there is another tax which I must confess I

have always strongly objected to, thouai it does not imme-
diately press on the industry of the labouring classes, yet
a tax which presses a good deal on the diffusion of
knowledge. I refer to the stamp duties on news-
papers, and the duty on advertisements. I propose,
Sir, with reference to the tax on newspapers, which
now is 4d., with a discount of 20 per cent., to
reduce that duty to 2d. without any: discount. With
reference, Sir, to advei tisements, the duty on which
at
,present is 3s. 6d. . I propose to reduce that

as follows :--On every advertisement not exceeding ten
lines, I propose that one shilling duty be paid ; above ten
lines, a duty of half-a-crown.—(Hear, hear.) I now
come, Sir, to speak of those taxes that press considerably
on the lower classes : and the first tax to which

I have to call attention is, the duty on sea-borne
eo4l.—(gear, bear.) This, Sir, is a tax that bears di-.

rectly on the labouring classes, by increasing the expense
of their fuel, and it presses in a much greater degree on
the growth of manufacture. In considering this tax we
must look to it as affecting England and Ireland, and I trust
that in taking off this tax, I shall not be considered as
having placed out of view the interests of Ireland. I in-
tend, Sir, to tal:e off the whole of this tax.—(Great
cheering.)—The House will see by this, and what I
have further to say, that I have considered those taxes
which press on the lower dames and the manufacturing
interest. I shall now refer to a tax which produces
far less revenue than what it takes out of the
pockets of the people. I refer to the tax on tallow
candles. This tax, I also propose to repeal altogether.
The next tax is one that also contains every objection
which can by possibility attf ch to any tax; I refer to the
taxes on printed calicoes. This produces a revenue of
two millions, placed on the productive interest of the
country, while the article, of which it is composed only
produces 500,000/. This, Sir, is a tax affecting that
particular class to which 1 have been refrgring.--

It is consumed by the poorer classes, and I have no doubt
the House will think with me that it is a tax which
ought to be taken off. Another tax to which I have applied
myself with great attention, as it is a tax on productive in-
dustry, is the tax upon glass ; and I doubt not when this
article is removed from the trammels of the Excise that
the manufactory of an article so important in life will go
on with prosperity when combined with a reduction of the
taxes on sea-borne coals. In this case, the manufacturer
must pay duty on the whole body of the article he manu-
factures, whereas when he has any thing ornamental to
produce he must cut away a great deal of that commodity
on which he has paid duty. These, Sir, are the taxes that
include the reductions. There are several small taxes—
about 163 I believe—which do not produce above 2,0001.
those will be taken off. Of these I will only men-
tion the auction duty on the sale of land ; from this the
revenue derives little benefit, while it is productive of
much inconvenience to the individual. Now, Sir, I shall
first state the amount, as it would appear, of the money
that has been received on these taxes. The receipt
arising from the duty on tobacco amounted to 2,800,000/. ;
the reduction of one half left 1,400,0001. The receipt
on newspaper advertisements amounted to 389,000/. ; Oil
stamps, 150,000/. ; the. reduction on there will be
190,000/. The repeal of thesduty on coal and slates--
thy-the-bye, I forgot to mention that I also projansed to
take off the duty on slates)—but this repeal occasions a
reduction of 830,0001. On candles, of 420,000/. On
printed calicoes, of 500,000/. On glass, 600,000/. On
auction duties on the sale of laud, 60,000/. On the
miscellaneous taxes, 80,0001.: making in the whole
a reduction and relief to the people of 4,080,000/.
I now come, Sir, to where I shall state the mode in
which this deficiency to the revenue will be provided for.
In endeavouring to provide for this, I have been anxious
to pursue a course that would not interfere with the
productive industry of the country. The first tax which
1 propose to increase in lieu of the taxes which I have
taken off, is that on wine. At the present time,
French wine pays a duty of 7s. 3d. per gallon. Other
wine 4s. 10d., and Cape wine 2s. sd. Now,
I propose to equalize the whole of this duty at ss. 6d.
Although by this means there will be a considerable
rise in the duty on Cape, ) et, I believe, gentlemen are aware
that that is a wine of which the consumption is but small.
The consumption of wine in consequence of this tax will not
be diminished, and I consider that the whole of this duty
of ss. 6d. will give about 1,840,0001. Now, heretofore
the average receipt of those duties amounted to 1,585,000(.
Therefore there would be an increase to the revenue of
250,000/. I can then fairly take this sum from the re-
ductions I have stated—namely, one half on the tobacco
duties, 1,400,000/. ; on newspaper advertisements and
stamps, 190,000/. ; on coals and slates, 830,000/. ; on
candles the reduction, by the way, will not be 420,000/..
because, in consequence of representations made to me by
the manufacturers respecting the heavy loss of stock which
would be caused to them by any sudden alteration in our
system, I have been induced to defer the repeal of this
tax until the 10th of October; the reduction, then, on
this article may perhaps be taken at 200,000 i. ; that
on printed calicoes at 500,000/., on glass at 600,000/.,
on small miscellaneous taxes and the auction duty
140,000/. The next tax is of an objectionable nature.
It is a tax which I most strenuously advocated se-
veral years ago on the Committee of Foreign Trade. I
have always thought it a tax that ought to be increased.
I refer, Sir, to the tax on timber. At the present moment
that tax stands thus. On rough European timber there is at
the present moment a tax of ss. per load. On Canadian
timber 10s. ; but, strange to tell, when this same Euro-
pean timber is cut up into deals, it pays 455. a load, while
that of the C icadas, in the same condition, pays only
ss. 9d. a load. It is quite true that, speaking upon prin-
ciple, timber is not a fit object for taxation ; but as the
custom of taxing it has prevailed so long, and as it is one
of those articles exceedingly difficult to smuggle—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh)-1 think lam justified in maintaining
it. I propose, however, to modify it; raising the ss. per
load on rough European timber to 20s. (thereby continu-
ing the advantage to the Canada timber), and thinking it
a bad arrangement to have a heavier tax on the rough in t-
terial than on the manufactured article, I propose to ad-
vance the duty on the Canada timber in deal to 30s.—
three times the duty on it in the rough state. This
change I calculate will go to increase the revenue to
760,000/., or say 660,000/. These, Sir, were taxes interfer-
ing smith the manufacturer. I now propose a tax, the
greater part of which will be drawbacks, for I would be
sorry to touch a staple manufacture in any way which
could be hurtful to it. I have decided upon taking off
500,000/. which pressed on part of a manufacture, and
now my object is to spread it over all. I propose, with
this view, to impose a duty of Id. a lb. on raw cotton im-
ported into this country, and to allow a drawback of Id. a
lb. on all manufactured cotton exported. I have ewer-
tained from those possessing practical knowledge on such
subjects, that there will be no difficulty or expence in the
collection of this duty, and therefore no objection can be
urged against it, founded upon an apprehension of such
contingencies. lam aware that there is an objection to
laying a tax on raw production, and true it is, the greater
part of the duty on the raw cotton will be drawn back.
This will leave an amount of taxation of 497,000/.
The next tax I intend to alter, and from which I expect
considerable revenue, is the tax on the exportation
of coals. As the tax at present stands on that
article it is 17s. 6d. upon large coals, and 41. on
small. Now what I propose is, to equalize this by
imposing a tax of 10s. on all coal exported. I ex-
pect, Sir, a revenue from this to the amount of 100,000/.
The next tax, Sir, which I propose will be on steam-
boat passengers—(Cries of hear and laughter)—the tax
that I mean to lay on is for passengers under twenty
mi'es Is. a head; from 20 to 30 miles 25., and from 30
miles and upwards 2s. 6d. This tax, Sir, I expect will
produce 100,000/. annually.—(Hear.)-1 cannot see what
forcible objection there can be to this tax. I have con-
sulted a gentleman, who I consider a good authority
on this subject (Mr. Deane, of the Custom-house) and he
considered there would be no difficulty in collecting it—
neither does he see any objection to it. I now have to
take another view on a different point, I allude to auctions
on the sale of all landed property, I cannot see the pro-
priety that there should be, as at present, a less tax on the
sale of small estates than there is on larger ones; I there-
fore intend to lay a tax of one half per cent. on the
transfer of all landed property by public auction.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—l do not see why the higher classes should
not be taxed to the full extent of all others,
neither do I see why the transfer of one kind of property
should be taxed and not another, I therefore propose to
lay a similar tax on all sales of the public funds.—(Hear,
and cheers from all parts of the House.)—The tax that I
mean to propose is half per cent., or ten shillings, upon
every hundred pounds bona fide transfer of stock.—(Hear.)
But, Sir, it is not my intention to tax the transfer of stock,
where it is only done for the purpose of giving security to
raise a loan of money. lam aware of the delicate nature,
and the excessive difficulty of the subject. It may be
fancied that danger may arise from this. Ido not think
so. Ido not think this proposition affects the interests of
the country more than the income tax. Before that tax
was imposed as now, the property in the funds was pro-
tected by the same words, declaring that no taxes, impo-
sitions, or charges whatsoever, should be laid upon it.
And yet Mr. Pitt, when speaking upon the income
tax, argued that there was no infraction of pub:ie faith
when he did lay on the tax, and declared that the
property in the funds should pay its share. It may
be said, Sir, that this is only a beginning, but we have the
security that we lay the same tax on land as we do on the
funds. We do not tax land to the exclusion of the funds, as
on transfers of all descriptions of property the same tax
will be levied. The House will bear in mind that Ido
not propose to tax the transfer of stock, when it
is only transferred as a security for a loan of money.
If I did, it would be a great inconvenience to the com-
mercial world. I therefore give the privilege of excep-
tion in such cases. It now, Sir, becomes me to state
what I expect ti derive from these taxes. From
the tax on the transfer of landed and funded pro-
perty, I calculate will be derived a sum of 1,200,000/.
From the tax on transfer of stock about 800,000/. and
from land somewhat under 500,000/. From wine,
250,000/. ; from timber, 600,000/. ; from cotton,
500,0001. ; from coal, 100,000/. ; from steam-boats,
100,000/. ; making in all 2,730,000/. To recapitulate
—the income 1830 was 47,150,000/. This is the in-
come as reduced from the 50,056,616/. by the taxes which
were repealed. The estimated expenditure of this year
we take at 46,700,9001., leaving a surplus of 450,000/.
I showed my plan to a man this morning, and lie observed
that the moneyed interest would not like it, but that the
manufacturing would. I replied that I should be happy
to give satisfaction to both parties ; but that if it
was only destined to satisfy one, I should feel great
pleasure in finding that one to be the manufacturing
interest, which was so intimately connected with
productive industry. I hope the House will consi-
der that the taxes to which I have applied myself—
namely, the duties on coals, candles, printed calico, glass
—have been well selected, as impeding manufactures, and
preventing the employment of the labouring classes. I
trust I am not wrong in making a bold experiment (I ad-
mit it is a bold one), but still one attended with no real
danger. All calculation seems to prove that the plan I
suggest will succeed ; and, if it does, it will raise the pros-
perity of the country to a great extent.—(Loud and am.

'. ~:

tinned cheers.) The Noble Lord then moved a vote of
2,000,0001. as transfer of aids; also, to vote 25,577,600/.
to pay off Exchequer Bills charged on aids 1830 and 1831;
also, 38,800/. to pay off Exchequer Bills issued for public
works and building churches.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he felt exceeding difficulty in
approaching a subject branching out into such a great
variety of heads. The proposition he had just heard
greatly astonished him. He never thought that he should
have heard such a proposition from that Bench.
.He felt
the deepest regret at the Noble Lord's proposing a breach
of faith with the public creditor ; he was sure, if the
Noble Lord had read the clause in the contract between
the creditor of the people and the State—a clause repea'ed
in every act—he (Lord A.) would never have made such
a proposition. The Noble Lord observed, that the exten-
sion of the income tax to the fundholder was in defiance
of the protection he was entitled to by the bond. He
(Mr. Goulburn) admitted it. He would call the atten-
tion of the House to a subsequent clause in one of the
statutes, referring directly to the subject now under
consideration. le that clause, after describing the
mode in which property of this kind should be assigned
and transferred, it was stated, as a condition that no
charge whatever should be made on such property. The
words were, " And that no other mode of assignment or
transfer of such property shall be good and available, and
no stamp duties whatever shall be charged on such trans-
fers or any of them, any Act of Parliament to the con.
trai'y notwithstanding."—(Hear, hear.)—Could there be a
more specific engagement cm the part of any Government?
Could there be a more binding contract than that which
he had just feadin the words of this Act of Parliament—
(Hear, hear) ?—Did it not seem that the lender of money
to the Government, foreseeing that his money might at
some time or other be made the subject of duty, had
thought it necessary to stipulate for this particular condi-
tion in his favour, and to prevent the imposition of a duty
that would diminish the value of his property thus ad-
vanced for the purposes of the government ? In his opi-
nion the fundholder had foreseen that attempt, and had
tried to pi event it ; and as long as he (Mr. Goulburn)
had a voice to raise in the fundholder's behalf, he would
raise it to declare that the fundholder was entitled to the
benefit of this exemption, and he would enter his protest
against any imposition of duty on property of this nature.
—( Hear, hear.) In his opinion this measure was a viola-
tion of public faith—it was an act of injustice; and, like
all measures of that kind, it would prove as impolitic as
it was unjust, and would be productive of nothing but
injurious consequences to the Government.--(Hear.) Had
the Noble Lord considered the extent to which these trans-
fers would go ? It was likely that he had, because by the
estimate he had formed of the probable amount of the tax,
he had proved his knowledge of the rapidity of the trans-
fer of such property.—(Hear, hear.) What, he could
not refrain from asking, what was it that gave a value to
funded property in this country over the funds of other
countries but the readiness of transfer ? Was it not the
facility with which individuals who held that property
could, without loss, bring their property into the market
and dispose of it ? It was that which gave to the funded
property of this country a sort of character of a circulating
medium, and made it a source of internal prosperity. When
the Noble Lord recollected that, did be think that that tax
would not interfere with the present condition of funded
property, and of the arrangements made with respect to it ?
that it would not have the effect of placing our stocks in
the same position as stocks of other countries ? and, finally,
that it would not interfere, not only with the value of
funded securities, but of every species of mercantile secu-
rity in the country ? He called on the Noble Lord to look
how this change would operate on those institutions
which that House had often thought it their duty to en-
courage.—(Hear, hear.) The Parliament had thought
fit too, by the provisions of a Statute, to hold out pro-
tection to certain institutions formed for the benefit of
the poorer orders of the community. They had directed
that the collections of Savings Banks should be in-
vested in the funds, and that from time to time tl.ey
might be bought in or sold out as the necessities of the
case and the advantages of the institution required. The
Noble Lord must be aware that the whole proceedir.g
consisted of buying in when it would be proper to do
so, and selling out when the party was in need and dif-
ficulty. The Noble Lord should remember that at pre-
sent these purchases and sales might be made for the
benefit of the poor man five or six times a year, and then
he should consider whether these sales would continue,
and what inducement beyond the mere pleasure of buying
and selling could now remain, and that every other ad-
vantage was to be sacrificed for the supposed benefit of the
Government. He thought, indeed, that the amount of
benefit the Government would receive would be hut small,
while he was convinced, that, not only with reference to
those institutions to which he had referred, but to others,
the tax would be a serious evil. That evil, too, would affect
all private persons, who, possessing capital, did, under the
present system, invest it from time to time, and dispose of
it again as their particular exigencies required. The
tax would operate not only as a cheek to the great
moneyed interest, but it would repress those very in-
terests which the Noble Lord, by the remission of some
parts of taxation, had stated, and he (Mr. Goulburn) be-
lieved had stated truly, he wished to relieve.—(Hear,
hear.)—He was convinced that the operation of these
measures would be more to repress the industry and we?-
Lie of the classes the Noble Lord intended to relieve than
the reduction of taxes would give them assistance and be-
nefit. He should therefore implore the Noble Lord to re.
consider th it part of the arrangement which he now sub-
mitted to the House—to pause before he adopted a depar-
ture from the strict adherence to contracts made by the
Government with the public creditor—an adherence
always the characteristic of this country, and which had
made the funds of this country, not only with these who
resided here, but with those who were natives or residents
in all other countries, to be considered the safest and the
best public funds in Europe. What he had said upon
this subject had not been well connected and digested,
because he had had no opportunity of considering the sub-
ject and preparing himself, but objections appeared to
him to arise in every direction. The Noble Lord mu.t
see that one of the effects of this tax was, that it
would give an advantage to the dealer in foreign securi-
ties. Let the Noble Lord inquire how interest in fo-
reign funds was transferred here, and how, in making
these tranfers, they avoided that taxation which the Noble
Lord was about to impose upon ours. In this latter poin
of view he was naturally drawn to another branch of

subject, to which it was impossible he should not call the

attention of the House. The Noble Lord proposed tha;
we should commence the prtsent financial year with the
prospect of only possessing at its termination a surplus of
450,0001.—a surplus to be obtained, not by taking known
sums of revenue, and showing their amount to exceed the
known expenditure of the country, but by estimating what
would be the produce of the new taxes, and of those which
had not been abolished or reduced. He must say, that
he thought this was a very dangerous c.mrse.—(Hear,
hear.)—About this time last year the Hon. Member for
Callington had thought that he (Mr. Goulburn) acted in
a most hazardous manner when he withdrew a certain
amount of taxation. That Hon. Member told him that

he was making a hazardous experiment with the resources

of the country in leaving so small a surplus ; and that in
so doing he was departing from the precedent afforded by
all former Chancellors of the Exchequer. He hid an-
swered that accusation by showing that, from the sources
of revenue on whi,:h his calculation was founded, the sur-
plus would be, not 450,000/., as stated by the Noble
Lord, but 1,600,000/. ; and that, if be was not much de-
ceived, that estimate of the surplus would be found to
be still higher from the augmented gross amount of
those duties on which reductions had taken place.—
(Hear, hear.)—He must, however, remind the Noble
Lord that he then admitted, that if he did not receive the
augmentation he expected, it would be the duty of Parlia-
ment to look to the state of taxation ; for lie acknowledged
that they were bound to take care that there was at least a
probability of the Government having a surplus of at least
three millions at the close of the year. It would certainly
be difficult and hazardous to say that the Noble Lord was
able to calculate for the first time what would be the result
of the revenue for the present year; but he must say, that
if the House should sanction the project of the Noble Lord
he believed at the end of 1831 it would be found that
we were without a surplus at all, and that we should
be under the necessity of raising Exchequer Bills to
meet the demands on the Government.—(Hear, bear,
bear.) He feared that the Government would entail
on themselves that which of all others was the worst
system of carrying on the finances of the country. The
mode adopted by ..the Noble Lord would be gratifying
to the classes of people in the country whom it appeared
to relieve, but who would afterwards find that fresh
burdens must of necessity be imposed upon them in
order to 'move too close a competition between the reve-
nue and the expenditure. He felt sure that the Hon.
Member for Callington, to whose opinions he had before
adverted, would not heslUte on this occasion to lend the
sanction of his authority in support of the objections which
he (Mr. Goulburn) had just stated—(Hear, hear)—and
would join with him in urging the Noble Lord to adopt a
course that would he likely at the end of the year to place
before them a picture more consistent with the public in-
terest. When two topics of such pre-eminent importance
arose out of the speech of the Noble Lord, it was scarcely
possible to enter into a minute examination as to the parti-
cular taxes which be proposed to remove, or as tQ those

which he now recommended them to Prille:rsi
details must come separately under the OW
the House at a future period, and he Should !leo,
self till that time before he attempted to 0; ,g 1
aminition of the details. But with reePecti- 'pi
the matters in the Noble Lord's speech he nitilrieblel
he thought there was, in the arguments-of thcAi;lito
s )me degree of inconsistency, when he exPproble
removal and his imposition of taxes. The
„„
Raid be removed the taxes on printed eott°44 till
t ,xes pressed heavily on the limn- clase.ea:i, „tie;
same time, the Noble Loid stated his inteotti tlx
a duty on raw cotton. The Noble Lord toel°o e%
duty because it was burdensome, though i S
that it could only affect one garment of the Pototo i
while he imposed a duty on all the plain c°t'svo,
country ; and be did not think that the [Wraro
ceive half the benefit from the one that they "7° st d
injury from the other. Nor was the argueleop $1
Noble Lord as to the inconvenience of keePing,bst li,
establishment for the collection of a small duty, 'eV
paid the expense of collection, quite consisteegool
by which he defended the imposition of 3 dilt;tl3t!
cotton. When he proposed this reduction °r 010'
a relief to those articles which were the P 1740
indestry of the people, his arguments could ec7,odel
conciled to what he did w ith respect to the t'
for, on increasing the duties on timber he tenors
the labour and the comfort of the peoPle; ee
duties could only add to the expence 0 hob,
With respect to the repeal of the taxes on glag4tier,
say nothing more than that he took it, thatiilllo. 0
gained in glass would be lost in timber.-7(Vf e 0
laugh.)—His object in rising then was W ea1:164
loss of time, the attention of the House to P4L-0 I
duty which he had first brought under tbeir 11V1
entreated the Noble Lord to read the Statute 'to,
0701 tsined the contract between the Government ed., ~,
holder, and, before he conclusively deterroi'
posing this duty, to see whether he could satist/Zoiti
''
satisfy that House, or, what 'was more di",
whether he could satisfy the country, that it '..tlittal
with a due regard for the public faith, and 0I fiej,
mercial and moneyed interest of the country, t°Slro
duty on the transfer of property in the public...lV
Mr. WARD said he was taken by surprise Ur.
positions of the Noble Lord,. so that he was it
collect his ideas in such a manner as to expreesills"j
fully on this subject; but he was able to asselli,
assert, that it was not possible for any one-,tmeasure with more decided hostility than he
~,(r,
pose this tax on the transfer of funded propertP,,, ill
hear, hear.)—He took that opportunity of ste°P:io,
all the bold measures he had ever heard proPr it
the walls of Parliament, that tax was the boitl,e6;ol
present convulsed state Of Europe, that the u 4,
should content themselves with a surplus ine°:__., ° i
400,000/., was a matter of the greatest astonish
even if lie were assured of the continuance oft
should say that it was part of a peace polier eP
surplus of a more decided kind: Such bad beelL IP
ciple on which Pitt, Fox, and Tierney brit.?
proceeded ; and in 1819 a resolution of I';'sie
had declared, " That, to provide for the;,;d
of the public service, the reduction of the no

--- if S'; Plti4-e'trett
and the relief of public burdens, it was absolute soD' tat t'
0 the
sary that there should be a surplus of not le°,derei 1 acth -
millions." The last Committee that had CO'n, 11', et ea e Prl
subject had taken the amount of necessary s°ll;,, 1115 :,411,/
three millions, and that opinion of theirs had heetlfd,,' tcNl,„,:4ten
up to the present time. The object of a sinkingt I,,t' Isst,,,-rew
not only for the benefit of the public creditor, it:bit, 4ti v' I
advantage of the country at large, by means O', ifi)'. 'lllO ‘',',":. ,
!urplus income, that at those periods when the 1°0(6 !rise- leel
in-erest rermitte,r, Alinisters should be able Ofpcpi 'l4por't 5 d
tountry a considerable annual expenditure, by e• itll' 'b°4lltrieedv 11
change in the pu'•lic funds, as they had done ,ft, .}' tl '
last year, when they effected a saving of three-9u Or Is th 'e I'
a million, and as they had done in other instanicqtr' tih,t lioi,W„e
the saving amounted to one million and a half' ,09, 4 too- "
peated hia strong objection to the tax on the tr."
.1t4.4 de
, Rise Ald
funded property.
Mr. Alderman WAITHAIAN said that the slit:/)
ke° toca.°ll:titu
of the Noble Lord opposite had been distingull'9, i ,7
; tllatir'g
great candour; and for the reductions which teetr4/ eti„
tArc
Lord had effected he felt most grateful. With ti, tl liter h tad
the tax on timber, he differed from some nt.,,t,eA- iqes ti,'" rl
Gentlemen near hire ; for he did not think Clot iitli„, I,!' etaa r
to throw away our colonies, or treat theist l'g et, 1,1,1441N:et
they were governed properly, we must benefit rto',l.' it Petty- 'l
and even at present they afforded us the best r. cie I.4''Cluld an
foreign trade. There was some of the Canet4fraelei s,11,1(loe atie,
for instance, that was equal to any that eante,,,,ool 14,,°"41:
Baltic. The House had recently been occur-c,F,r a s'itio, lel
sidering a grant on account of improvements iP oOf :the t:' t'
The question was whether the country should thref/ti i:tkOrl h-55:5
more money on that colony. He thought that tii,d, (4°,, ethe,,as
votes on that subjeA had been wrong, but he t 04,1 14,,4, he:,
would be very absurd, after spending so much ogst ,) IterNtion '
the colony, to throw it away altogether. Then' ,wirlta II': but ,
duty on wine-except the trade we carried on • )I'e the' tax on
colonies, the best part of our foreign tradewltsvoltrfi 14 tii'-:ttetry
tugal. Yet now we were called on to sacrifice .- ta,rie, kite,: 4ao,e
by equalising the duties on wine. We had alrel roc,,,f N!'tioo at
many sacrifices to France in our conimereia tile ~ ratio
3. IV]
we had sacrificed our manufactures by allowing rfire,s ;444 kfin ,
petition of theirs, and cow we were going to s3c,ofirsf ic"te tile pia,
trade with Pot twal, and give a further advantage r fit ~r tti,Pl. he Iv
hem/ which we had rtc ived none at 65 '°ll 11'4t':,,t I'o%
With respect to the Noble Lord's propositilsit. io 4'441' of ot
duty on printed cottons, he highly approved t:cor eris,e; Nettg Iteeo
saw no objection to the penny duty on raw e°t''theedri Ittet,„°.'ende,
cialiy with the advantage of the reduction °l
ea prerda Propeltlllied
He thought the taxes on the transfer of land rtl'y treirtv.
wrong; but that on the transfer of funded PIO ~ lie a h; tho,
impracticable and unjust. He did not know I)°, owt,e 114', tt'lsrstd
stood in that respect; but when he considered, ',V 00l
.it''tl ''t that
of these transfers there were in one day, and °ad e" i' "N 4,40 sue,
limy it was that such transfers should be rapidlY4l Pesii ttsiee:t" at a
made, he could not but think that the tax sOtt 0 4,0 Pollee` etatt
upon distress, as that owp imposed on insuranedeo 0 ,
ittgt,tv if ~,
fire was a tax upon prudence.-(Hear.)-WhY (00f.,11 h,4it ,'lt.elY e
Government impose a property tax at once?--- eirc rti
t.:134,4-;4itt 1,,
Men of large landed property, who were in goad
.I. pra fel ' ' :44,'ng h
stances, and who were not required to sell the!.
et! tt',o,
\,t,th Plat,
would escape the tax, while those who were nhiltgyireti 1,1154 ' ngo,
their property in order to make a settlement on hi Pt/ btu tt,"tilic
dren, on the marriage of a son or daughter, %Ouoverif
1,00 tlitN rs'leure,
pay this tax. There was one other class of Pr„OO,lV at
that
would altogether escape the tax-be meant gr-titsr ~ Oil. Zat (
and property secured by mortgages. Ground 1101 R. 11
cially in the neighbourhood of London, had °,,,s‘lor pros awe Pre
doubled, while every other species of propel' eh Olt/ tf°l'e,elrrins
ciated ; and yet they would remain untouelithey 0 f it, Risir, to ht
too, were the absentees to escape? Why sc'en'e f the/ 41k' ! the
be taxed ?-(Hear, hear. -A late Chancellor' °f tsiji,
i‘,ttiwell sn
chequer, who was now in the other House, ir.al a 1,1e0t; 4,:4t (14',"0
tart, had stated that there were two millions 3-optif; 11' i,t. tt,,r-Rr i
money annually expended by absentees on the orbit'oarf' ~,;46(rr tl,
He believed that the amount was double thato att,lllei; LNly ~4 tat,
had just stated; but taking that to be the tr vv,ve Green 4,rive,
he wished to know why they were to escape t ocl'I;( If°4t 1,444 ,
hear.)--He wished the Noble Lord had put 3 it:'sf ts%'
/1! qktL'4ate
persons, and had repealed the house and wit° inaiott'i (tly 4 ll'
it was a tax of the most partial and gricvn°,',,,ed sr, tlie4,t'trilte'Po
had presented many petitions against the 55""aitio''', ~,,,l'eseht wia
and from the unequal manner of their in)P°l,e the 1 4,4%444,4 Yut
other circumstances, he did believe them tit oe° \' 4.4 tilt 41 t
vexatious kimi of taxes, tile Pf 'V '').l4)e(i'°4
Mr. JOHN SAIITII felt great anxiety nfl, ier'Solot; c.,,i,e,at,,4]
occasion. No loan in the House had withellpe 'let,'t bt "1•1
formation of the present Government e'3l of:i",, l'ia, 4 6"tlir
satisfaction than himself, bee ruse he had seen ekes Iv 's,,t,reve4Y Or
of it pledge themselves to certain Inettsl;i, t°,,f,/ 'abet,, Noe
I.
if they conducted with prudence ":_°..° tori°-ot
r/1,1 Ns Wa: eh
opinion be of the highest service to t"',.,,,g, t di, , 4, ptllt'N Count
He, however, was under the: necessity of ea)"-ht f' ogl' illh, 4, 11.
1 . , ... .
_.,stie 00 6 at. it fo_
certainly thought that one of the measures Diu ;,,t1
this night was ill-advised, dangeroot woo o,l' :ikt st,,l .),
fie the hit h 14 • IA .
not to be persisted in.-(Loud cheers.) ,e to iti j kloitt 'Ili), i }
the liberty of calling the attention of the 11°°.,,titietjdoteor ~,414f' it, ,„ 4
ject, making a few observations which his l'i'od yr f t ,t'4,l, de re,
enabled him 0 offer. The Noble Lade fuoilei,r ii/ ti t,tittAt'Peo4e
a tax on the transfer of stock in t_i) evislt we'ir,i It' t° tap to the
his own part, he was one of the last tu, , yie,o $O/ ,4. 410 ly u
thing like seeing tile honour of the trounti7eo clot / 1441 N '4l e
,i) ,
(Hear, hear)-but if they should be deans, trieb.,,fr t,,1, Pkl,l,i
thing like it, they had always one Inft the orreol, k,,,N, If it 14,`,
certainly resorting to the property 06 seas :,, 5(3,0 tivi Ivl.'l„f tlair
To be able to have money in the fun eto P'lol‘e,4o 5e,,,..40 t'44 bee
ingly useful ; but, if for instance, a man weirri utidet,',4 'lO ll,lsi,,ge, pre
for transferring 100,000/. Consols, he wt°",,y tiji, 10 11,t'Iase I'4o t"
gar that that any man would not, udirofe,
soces
the Ei)N4) all
alMary circumstances, make tire tra„ ativ to a) 1114,'°(10; dl
well known that bankers make larg-taaee.ii Ir ? its,' tqc,„, 110 ,
stoek, which was of the highest tar
,ely, floniierjoi 144°14" esa,k
community. In that dreadful crisis, vt.11',.. ot '4,, fat 41ik'N1,4t,Ikrir4
and 1826, what was the situation of the t'ott.' ntot‘ed,lYo•, I:NI4Se "st ti
Individuals then sold large sores of tire 5 otOtrot 1401 Nt but
advanced the money. 'With the produce the 0,,, teen t,,, °n the
assisted their friends in London, irt,r, for 001040 cal''t t,, rat%)
and every where; and had it not bee
extra i avolo 11,,vt1i1 a soy
exertions made by individuals, above all, t liendivid 13/dit I;lritilti/' 4.44 ~,
and excellent conduct of the meritorious r
of the ,:,,l'e_,l, !ikl,„ N. the i
it that period of time filled the charii
and
een' gv, lt,:ke Y too,
his own opinion was that universal au .
_,, h ti th 4 -11,',4th ee4
Hari °le' Jr° he" ` tat I would have extended over England. hurl f 0 ,9 yak de
or oe , 0 /31 hy Co,
to have been paid for the transfer '
„serioa
sand Consols at that time, for a l'oarcely
ortCr: 2
a month, or longer, or eh