The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

silent with respect to the poor-law of Ireland to I
have met Parliament with a comprehensive measure.
The Government ought to have come forward and settled
the questions of the circa of taxation, of arrears of rent,
and of waste lands. Had they brought forward well
digested measures upon those subjects, they would have
found no difficulty in obtaining tt.e sanction of all par-
ties to measures of such a beneficial character. Under
such circumstances such a proposition as. the pros( nt
would have been of a temporary character, but under
existing circumstances, who could maintain that this
measure would be merely temporary? He had listened
to the appeal of the Right Honourable Baronet
(Sir George Grey), and he protested against the
spirit of that appeal.—(Loud cheers.) If the House
yielded to such appeals, especially since the regulations
which had been lately introduced, they might prejudice
in a most injurious manner the right of public discus-
sion. And, when ho considered that the Government on
such an important subject had, he would not say trilled
with the House, but rather had trifled with their own
reputation, by the manner in which they had acted in
gard to the policy they recommended to be adopted
with respect to Ireland; and when he considered that no
one could for forty-eight consecutive hours be sure what
was the policy they were pursuing and recommending
the House to adopt, he for one could not advise his Hon.
Friend the Member for Radnorshire not to divide the
House, but would rather express a hope that Hon. Gen-
tlemen on both sides of the Muse would take this oppor-
tunity of expressing their opinion upon this momentous
question by submitting it to a division.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I very much regret, Sir, that the
Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down should have
thought that a case of this kind, effecting the subsist-
ence of a distressed portion of the kingdom, was a proper
matter for a party discussion.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Gentleman knows full well that when a general rate is
proposed the manner and time of proposing it is in a
Committee of the whole house.—(Hear, hear.) He
knows full well that the forms and regulations of the
House do not allow any such proposition to be made to
the House; and that if I were now to propose the reso-
lutions which I have put on the notice paper I should
immediately be stopped by the Speaker and told that it
was incompetent for me to propose them.—(Hear, hear.)
'The Hon. Gentleman must also know that as I could not
propose them except in Committee, it was natural that I
should wish to accompany them with the reasons why I
thought them necessary. Had I been able to do so, it
was competent for the Hon. Member for the University
of Dublin, or for any other Hon. Gentleman, to have
told us that the principle we had adopted was vicious;
that the measure we had proposed would produce mis-
chief; and that therefore the House ought not to sanc-
tion it. That would have been a fair course to pursue
with respect to the proposition we have to submit; but
to interpose at this sage, and to say that we shall not go
into Committee at all, and to make that proposal on the
ground stated by the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli),
viz., that delay is required, and that long deliberation is
necessary—to do that, Sir, is, in my opinion, worse than
trifling with our reputation, as he says we are doing;
it is trifling with tire welfare, I might say with
the existence of many of our fellow subjects in Ireland.
—(Loud cheers.) What do the papers before us tell us
with respect to some of the unions? (Here the Noble
Lord read a brief extract from the papers on
Irish distress, respecting the extreme destitution pre-
vailing in the Scariff and Swinetord unions.) It is
in these circumstances that the Honourable Gentle-
man says that much delay is required, that it is necessary
to go into every question with respect to the poor-law in
Ireland, that it is necessary to go into all the different
valuations before any temporary remedi is proposed for
this state of things.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentle-
man, the Member -for, the University of Dublin, chooses
to say that we have brought forward this measure as a
single measure—without any other proposition for the
amendment of the poor-law. The Hon. Gentleman must
know full well that in the Select Committee on the Irish
Poor-law I stated several propositions which I thought
it the duty of the Government to propose, and I am
'only to state to the House when in Committee the
general nature of those propositions; and, therefore, I
think it was not very candid of the Hon. Gentleman,
having heard some of those prepositions discussed, to
come to this House and say that this was a single propo-
sition. But the Hon. Gentleman says—and the same tone
has been taken up by other persons of weight and
authority—that unless we lay before the House a settled
plan for the reduction of the area of taxation, it is im-
possible that they can agree in the proposition for a rate
in aid. Now, what we have done with respect to that
matter is this, we appointed a commission, consisting of
persons fully competent for the task ; but, although they
had been many months at the labour, they had not been
able to advance further than a proposition for additional
unions, and forming electoral divisions in those unions.
They propose a scheme for the diminution of the
areas of the taxation, so that the different
persons paying the rates may be within easy
reach of each other, and may co-operate with each other;
but they did not think it right to propose that every
small property should form a separate area of taxation.
—(Haar, hear.) Now, if it be meant that unless we
agree that every separate property shou'd form a dis-
tinct area of taxation, these gentlemen will not agree
even to consider the proposition for a rate in aid, I must
say I don't think it very likely that we shall make that
proposition.—(Cheers.) I have a letter in my pocket
from a gentleman who was formerly employed on the
Poor-law Commission, but who is not now so employed,
—whose abilities and experience give me great confi-
dence in his judgment; and he says that while the area
of taxation ought to be diminished, yet if every property
were made a separate area of taxation, you would see
evictions enormously increased; and, that there was
hardly any measure from which an equal amount of
misery would accrue if that plan were adopted.
Mr. OSBORNE—Is that letter from Mr. Senior?

Lord J. RUSSELL—No, it is not from air. Senior.
(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Radnorshire (Sir
.J. Walsh) proposes a plan for the relief of Ireland—
which cmsists in a proposition for the reduction of the
area of taxation, coupled with another proposition for
emigration. I do not think proper to adopt the propo-
sition of the Hon. Gentleman. I think that if you
make your whole plan to consist of these two proposi-
tions—that the area of taxation should be reduced to
the propery of every individual landlord, so that he
would have it in his power by driving every poor tenant
from his property to clear himself from the obligation
of paying poor-rates, and if you coupled with that a
very large scheme of emigration, you would produce,
in the first instance, great misery in Ireland, and in the
second instance, you would be conveying numbers of un-
fortunate persons to a distant shore without making any
provision for them after they are there.—(Hear, hear.)
Being ready, as I said I should be, to propose in Com-
mittee the resolutions of which 1 have given notice,
and to explain my general view of the poor-law, I must
say that it is not the plan of the Hon. Gentleman, and
that I believe that plan, if adopted, would create greater
calamity in Ireland than any that yet exists.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HERBERT repelled the charge of party motives
which the Noble Lord had made. He himself had come
into the House without any party motive, and determined
to support the Government on every occasion on which
he could do so consistently with his sense of duty to his
country. He had supported them until he found that
the existence of the class to which he belonged, and the
existence of property in Ireland, were "incompatible with
the existence of her Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON concurred in the view expressed
by the Hon. Member who had just addressed the House.
If they attempted to levy this rate in aid, they would
add twenty to thirty bankrupt unions to the otller
twenty-one bankrupt unions. Ile contended that there
was a great disproportion between England and Ireland
in respect to the means applicable to the support of the
poor in both countries.
Lord CASTLEREAGH could not allow this debate
to terminate without saying a word or two upon it. In
the outset he must express his regret that the debate had
taken so Irish a turn, by which the Noble Lord was
prevented from making his statement to the House. In
the first place, he must express his objection to the con-
stitution of the Committee appointed to consider the
Irish poor-law. He objected to the proposed vote in aid,
hut, from what had occurred elsewhere, he had every
reason to believe this proposition would fall to the ground.
The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter of the
late Lord Lonsdale, to show that the intention of the
gislative union was to make the whole resources of the
empire applicable to meet the wants of portions of it.
He thought it would be a difficult matter to collect this
proposed rate in aid, and if they were to persevere in
it they might create feelings in the north which would
induce the loyal people of that part of Ireland to
merge all distinctions, and Orangemen and Ribbonmen
might join together to break up that union which now
so happily existed between this country arid Ireland. He
would entreat them to pause in respect to this measure,
and not to force the loyal people of Ireland to adopt the
course which he alluded to. The gentry of Ireland were
anxious as far as possible to assimilate the taxation of
Ireland to that of England; but:they had no right to tax
the land of Ireland in the way proposed. The Noble
Lord then read an extract from a pamphlet by a gentle•
man, named Martin, in support of his views, and again
expressed a hope that the rate in aid would not bo en-
forced.

Mr. PRYSE complained that no Welshman had been
placed on the Committee referred to.—(A laugh.)

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL expressed his regret that
the Noble Lord had been prevented from making his
statement by this discussion.
After a few words from Mr. CLEMENTS, similar to
those made by the Hon. Member for Limerick,

Colonel DUNNE said iliere-;asno doubt about the
proposition of the Noble Lord, although he had not
wade it to that House.—(A laugh.) He contended that
any such proposition would be a violation of the Act of
Union.

Mr. KERR said that, if the rate in aid wore carried,
the magistrates in that part of the country from which
he came would give up their commissions.—(hear, and a
laugh.)
Mr. GROGAN said that in Ireland there was no con-
fidence whatever in the Committee appointed to inquire
into the operation of the Irish poor-law. Supposing
they were to carry the proposition of a rate in aid, were
they to levy another sixpence in the pound when the
sixpence in the pound under this proposition had been
disposed of? lie would oppose a proposition of a rate
in aid. _ _ _

represented a constituency, the value of whose property
was 1,000,0001, about 1-13th of the entire rateable pFo •
perty in Ireland. If this rate were agreed to it would in-
flict on them an additional sum exceeding 20,0001., from
which they would derive no benefit, because in Dublin
the highest rate in one year was only 3s. in the pound.
He was no advocata for this rate in aid, but he had
voted for it in Committee, and should vote for it in that
House, on certain conditions.—(A laugh.) It. was a
rate that ought not to be inflicted on Ireland if it could
be avoided—he was told it could not. He understood
from the Treasury Bench that they could no longer look
for relief from the Consolidated Fund. From the sup-
porters of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth, he understood that the votes for Irish distress
had reached their limit. He was told that 21 unions were
in a state of bankruptcy, and that several hundred thou-
sands of persons were starving. Then he would ask those
who opposed this measure, were they prepared to incur
the responsibility of letting those people die of starvation
in what he called the midst of plenty, when food was
at a drug price? One reason why he should vote for
this rate iu ail was, that he felt ashamed, as an Irish-
man, to be repeatedly told in that House that the Irish
were mendicants at the door of that House.—(Hear,
hear.) He looked to all parts of Ireland as his country
—he felt that an insult to ono was an insult to all. He
believed that Ireland was capable of supporting her
pauperism if fairly treated. The lion. Member for
Buckinghamshire said that Ireland was politically but
not fiscally connected with this country. That was a
distinction he could not understand. When they asked
for a domestic Legislature they were told that Ireland
was an integral portion of the British Empire.
It might be a dangerous doctrine for the
Honourable Member to repeat too often. The
conditions upon which he would vote for this resolution
were that all the income defiled from real property in
Ireland should be made available for the purpose of the
rate in aid, including money in the funds, annuities, rent
charges, mortgages, and jointures. They had already
tried to make the people of Ireland pay the assessed
taxes, but they were obliged to abandon the attempt on
the principle that you could not take the knee buckle
off a Highlander.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) had assimilated the stamp duties between
the two countries as an equivalent for the non-extension
of the income-tax to Ireland. A sum of not less than
9,000,000/. per annum was received into this country
from absentee rents and interest upon mortgages in
Ireland, and this sum paid income-tax into the Ex-
chequer, so that Ireland ought to get credit for that
amount.

Sir W. VERNER said he felt himself called upon to
defend the loyalty of Ulster. On two occasions that
province received the thanks of Parliament for coming
torward to put down rebellion in Ireland.
Sir L. O'BRIEN objected to the measure, and de-
clared his intention to vote against it.
Sir T. ACLAND thought they ought not to be called
upon to vote in favour of the plan at the present moment.
He should vote for going into Committee, in order to
hear what the plan was in detail, but would dot 'thereby
pledge himself in support of the resolution.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee 395
Against it
Majority
On our re-admission we found the House in Com-
mittee and the CHAIRMAN reading the following resolu-
tions:—" That in each of the next two years there shall
be paid by every union in Ireland a sum equal to the
rate of 6d. in the pound on each electoral division in
such union, towards a general fund for the relief of
the poor in Ireland; that the said sum shall be paid to
a separate account at the Bank of Ireland, in the name
of the Paymaster of Civil Services in Ireland, and shall
be applied in su:th manner as Parliament shall direct."
Lord J. RUSSELL said that be should to-morrow
(this day) address a statement to the House having re-
ference to the foregoing resolutions, but as it had been
intended to bring forward the navy estimates on that
day it was arranged that the statement regarding those
estimates should be postponed, and he should there-
fore ask the House to agree to a vote of 200,0001.. on
account. Having taken that rote he should imme-
diately afterwards make the statement which he had just
mentioned.
Mr. HERRIES said he should not object to the vote
ot' 200,0001. on account.
In reply to a question by Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY,
Sir F. BARING said that the vote would ho on ac-
count of the excess in the nary estimates.
In reply to a question from Mr. HERRIES,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated, that even though the de-
bate on the Irish rare-in•aid resolution should not ter-
minate to- morrow (Friday), he should still proceed with
the question of the navigation laws on Monday.
The House having resumed, the following Bills were
read a third time:—

Viscount Melgund, married the daughter of a general.
P. W. S. Miles. married a daughter of Major-General
Sir William Napier.
Sir W. Morrison, a major general in the East India
Company's service.
Hon. E. W. M. Loyd, has a cousin an officer in the navy.
Earl of Mulgrave, a lieutenant in the Guards, and a
major of militia.
Viscount Newport, has one uncle a captain in the navy,
and another a captain in the army.
Lord Norreys, has a brother an officer in the Life Guards.
Sir D. Norreys, son of a lieut.-colonel in the army.
Sir P. Nugent, son of a commander in the navy.
Lord Ossulston, has an uncle a captain in the navy.
Sir John Owen. has a son a colonel in the army.
Lord Clarence Paget, a captain in the navy, son and se-
cretary to the Master-General of the Ordnance.
Lord George Paget. a lieut.-colonel of dragoons, son of
the Master General of the Ordnanc'.
Lord Palmerston, lieut.-colonel of the Hampshire militia.
John Parker has been secretary to the Admiralt;•.
J. W. Patten, a colonel of militia.
Sir R(,bert Peel, married the daughter of a general, has
a brother a colonel in the army, ant a son captain in
the navy.
Jonathan Peel, brother of the preceding, a colonel in the
army, has been Surveyor-general of the Ordnance.
Hon. E. G. D. Pennant, a colonel in the army.
Sir R. Pigot, son of a general, is further connected with
the army through the marriage of his daughter to one
of the Fitzroys.
W. Penney. a captain of yeomanry cavalry.
D. Pugh, a major of yeomanry cavalry.
G. A. Reid was colonel in the Life Guards.
E. R. Rico, a captain of yeomanry cavalry.
Henry Rich, son of an admiral.
G. Rushout, a captain in the Life Guards.
Lord John Russell, has four brothers in the army, three
in the navy, a nephew in the army, a cousin in the
navy, &c., &c., &c.
Fr. C. H. Russell, an officer in the Fusilier Guards, son
of a major-general, nephew of the preceding.
M. T. Smith, son of a lieut.•colonel in the army.
J. G. Smyth, a lieutenant in the Yorkshire Hussars. -
J. E. Taylor, has been a captain in the Dragoon Guards.
E. K. Tenison, held formerly a commission in the Dra-
goon Guards. •
Sir F. Thesiger, "has been in the navy," according to

Dod.
J. Tollemache, son of an admiral.
J. Townsend, a captain in the navy (colleague of Sir R.
Peel).
Hon. G. R. Trevor, lientecolonel, commandant of the
Royal Carmarthen Fusiliers.
H. Tufnell, has been secretary to a First Lord of the
Admiralty (Minto).
Sir J. T. Tyrell, a colonel of militia.
Lord G. Vane, has a sister married to a colonel in the
army.
Sir W. Verner, a colonel in the army.
Sir H. Verney, son of a general, married daughter of an
admiral ; has been a major in the army.
Viscount Villiers, has three brothers captains in the
Guards.
R. H. Vyse, son of a colonel, himself a captain in the
Guards.
H. G. Ward, secretary to the Admiralty, an hereditary
inmate of the Admiralty-buildings, Whitehall.
J. L. 0. Vaughan, a colonel of militia.
Sir C. Wood, has been secretary to the Admiralty.

Relief of Distress (Ireland) Bill, Vice-Guardians of
Unions (Ireland) Bill, Overseers (Cities and Boroughs)
Bill, Out-door Paupers Bill, and Buckingham Summer
Assizes Bill, and
The House adjourned at half-past One o'clock.

Mr. REYNOLDS said the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin University, who represented Ulster, not
in n Parliamentary but in a sympathetic sense—(A
laugh)—had told them that if the House passed this six-
penny rate, it would shako the loyalty of that province
to its foundation. The Noble Lord, the tone of whose
speech was so excellent that every one must admire it,
had echoed that sentiment, and the Hon. Member for
Dowripatrick had threatened them with a wholesale re-
signation of the magistrates. If that was so, the loyalty
of Ulster might be called a sixpenny loyalty.—(Laugh-
Lit.) It was for the. House of Commons in its wisdom—
he would say in its mercy—to decide whether it would
interpose between a starving people on the one side,
and unwilling contributors of aid on the other. He

SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, 1849.

Grose for the prompt and energetic measures 6et he
took on seeing the condition of the swamped boat.
DEVONPORT, WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON.—We had a
fine day yesterde,y, wind east, but it shifted in the n.glit
to south-west ahl cause on aegale, continuing till about
half past three pm. We have not had it blowing so
hard during the winter. About ei'ht Ant. the brig
yacht Avienis, about 200 tons, belonging to a Mr.
Taylor, who has lately returned from the Mediterra-
nean, parted her moorings and went on shore under
Plymouth citadel, where she now is full of water. For-
tunately no lives were lost, but it is supposed she will
become a complete wreck. All else holds on.
WOOLWICH, MARCH I.—The Janus steam-vessel,
Lieutenant Commander Powell, left this afternoon for
Portsmouth and Gibraltar, and will have her compasses
adjusted to-morrow by Captain Johnson, who will pro-
ceed to Greenhithe for that purpose.
THE COURT•MARTIAL FOR THE Loss OF THE MU-
TINE.—The result of the court-martial on Lieutenant
Curtis, as senior and commanding officer of the Mutine,
when wr,ciced, was, the Court finding, after a tlelibera•
tion of one hour and twenty minutes, that no blame wit,
attributable tither to Commander Palmer or Lieutenant
Curti, er the efileers and crew under their command,
and acquitting them accordingly; and, further, express-
ing their high opinion of the merits and bravery shown
by Lieutenant Curtis and Mr. Maunder, the acting mas-
ter, under the trying circumstances in which they had
been pieced.
The PRESIDENT then, addressing Commander Palmer,
said,—l have great pleasure in returning you your
sword.

The PRESIDENT then said—Lieutenant Curtis, I have
great pleasure in returning you your sword; and further,
I am requested by this Court to express their high
opinion of the skill, ability, and care shown by you under
the very distressing circumstances in which you had the
misfortune to be placed. May you long wear your sword,
Sir, and wield yuur command as faithfully and bravely in
the service of your Queen and country as you have
hitherto done.

Commodore Superintendent 11. Eden has returned
*rom leave of absence, and has resumed his duties at
Woolwich.

WHALE FISHERY IN THE ARCTIC

OCEAN.

The following, which appears in a Sandwich Island
paper just received, will bo read with interest, not only
on account of its bearing on the whale fishery, but also
from the attention with which all late information from
the Arctic Seas is now regarded in consequence of the
uncertain fate of Captain Franklin:—

" The American whaling barque Superior, commanded
by Captain Boys, sailed from Sag-harbour to cruise in
the South Atlantic, but not being successful, Captain
Boys decided to carry out the plan of a voyage which he
had been contemplating for years. This plan em-
tiraced a cruise in the Arctic Ocean, through Behring's
Straits. lie had collected what information he could
in regard to those regions, which had hitherto only
been visited by such adventurous navigators as Cook,
Clerk, Kotzebue, and Beechy. Captain Boys in-
forms us that the principal reason which induced
him to put away for that ocean was a remark which
be recollected to have read in "Beechy's Voyages," viz:—
' Oft here we saw a great many black whales, more than
I remember ever to have seen, even in Baffin's Bay.'
This remark is found in vol. 1 of Beechy's Voyages,"
page 379, and refers to 'lcy Cape,' situated in lat.
70 deg. 20 miles, and W. long. 162 deg. Captain Boys
has furnished us the following outline of his cruise in
the Arctic Ocean:—' I entered the Arctic Ocean about
the middle of July, and cruised from continent to conti-
nent, going as high as the lat. 70 deg., and saw whales
wherever I went, cutting in my last whale on the 22d of
August, and returning through Behring's Straits on the
28th of the same month. On account of the powerful
currents, thick fogs, the near vicinity of land and ice,
combined with the imperfection of charts and want of
information respecting this region, I found it both diffi-
cult and dangerous to get oil, although there are plenty
of whales. Hereafter, doubtless, many ships will go
there, and I think some provision ought to be made to
save the lives of those who go there, should they be cast
away; they should not be left to perish among the In-
dians who inhabit these regions.'
" In conversation with Captain Boys we have obtained
additional information, which may not be uninteresting
to our readers. During the entire period of his cruise
there was no ice seen, the weather was ordinarily
pleasant, so that the men could work in light clothing.
Its most parts of the ocean there was good anchorage,
from 14 to 35 fathoms. During a part of the time that
the vessel was there she lay at anchor. The first whale
was taken at twelve o'clock at night ! It was not d,ffi,
cult to whale' the whole 24 hours; so light was it that
at midnight it was easy to read in the cabin. The whales
were quite tame, but entirely different from any which
Captain Boys had ever before taken. lie took three
different species, one of the largest yielding 200 barrels
of oil. The first species much resembled the Greenland
whale, yielding abont 160 or 170 barrels; the second was
a species called Polar whale, a few of which have been
taken on the north-west coast; and the third, a small
whale peculiar to that ocean. The last three whales
which were taken yielded over 600 barrels."