The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Lord KING presented a petition from John Joseph
Lawson, the printer of the Times newspaper, acknow-
ledging his error, and trusting to the consideration of
their Lordships. The petition was read, after which
Lord LIMERICK observed, that as he had stated
yesterday he was actuated by no personal motives
whatever in bringing the subject before their Lord-
ships yesterday. The House had come to a deci-
sion that the charge he had made against the indivi-
dual now in custody was a most gross libel, not only upon
himself but upon the whole House. He did not wish for
the infliction of severe punishment, but he had authorities
chewing that for offences of a similar nature in former
times, individuals were in prison for three and six mouths in
private. The Noble Lord then alluded to the case of Mr.
Perry, of the Morning Chronicle, which took place in March,
1795, and for an offence of a similar nature committed
by him, that individual was sent to Newgate for three
months. He had only mentioned this to their Lordships
for the purpose of showing what had been done in
former times. He certainly had no desire whatever to
push the punishment of this individual to a peat extent.
Ile left him in the hands of their Lordships, and whatever
coarse they might think proper to adopt would b: per-
fectly satisfactory to him.
The Earl of MANSFIELD moved that the petition be,
laid on the table, and taken into consideration to-morrow.

Lord KING thought the proper course for their Lord-
ships to pursue would be, considering the punishment
which Mr. Lawson had already undergone, and the con-
trition which he expressed, to order his attendance at the
bar to be reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor, and then
discharged.
The Earl of MALMESBURY perfectly coincided with
the Noi.le Earl (Mansfield) in taking the petition into con-
sideration to-morrow, and the more publicity was given to
subjects of this nature the better. If, however, the Noble
Lord (King) wished that the course he had stated should
be adopted, the regular Rirliamentary way of proceeding
would be to give notice of a motion to that effect for to-
morrow.

Earl GREY thought that considerable advantage was
derived from subjects of this nature being discussed in
public. He was no friend to secrecy. He thought
it would be much better that the House should take tiii to-
morrow to consider, and then a motion might be made by
the Noble Baron, if he chose, that the offender should be
called to the Bar, reprimanded, and discharged, and he
trusted there would be no more discussion upon the sub-
ject to-day.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not understand
that by the course which had been pursued yesterday it
would not be open to any Noble Lord to deliver his fur-
ther sentiments upon the petition which had been now pre-
sented. The House had came to the determination that
the matter complained of by the Noble Earl (Limerick) was
a scaudalous libel on its privileges, and he considered the
small punishment which Mr. Lawson had now undtr-
gone was not sufficient fur the enormity of the offence.
He certainly thought that the House would best.
consult its own dignity if it was to visit upon the
individual a greater degree of punishment, and a marked
disapprobation in such practices and conduct; and be
trusted further that the House would institute measures
to bring up the Editor, for he could not bring himself
to believe that the individual now at the bar was
the real author of this libel. He trusted the House
would find means of discovering the -individuals who had
masked themselves under the name of this man. He
thought the individuals who wrote paragraphs for these
Papers would have bitter pangs of reproach on their
minds when they saw their Lordships inflicting the
reprimand on this individual. He had also felt exceed-
ingly astoni-hed at the speech of the Lord Chancellor last
night,-which had almost induced him to believe that he was
Counsel for the offending party on this occasion.—(Order. )
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. So little
did be dread the Noble Lord, that be had nu objection
whatever to his going on making what expositions lie
pleased tither of him (the Lord Chancellor) or himself.
He cared not one rush for his sarcasms, insinuations,
awl threats, but he would much rather meet in open hos-
tility than by covert insinuation. He called on the Noble
Marquis to charge him with something.
uLONDONDERRY
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that the Noble
N thing
Lord, with all his eloquence and skill, nor any other Noble
Peer in that House, should put him down in the discharge
of which he considered the conscientious discharge of
his duty. Ile knew the Noble and Learned Lord
by his great eloquence, and deep erudition, might by
force of argument make that which was the worse
appear the better cause, yet pigmy as he (the Noble Mar-
quis) was in comparison with the Noble and Learned
Lord, if he had formed an opinion, no man should put
him down.
Time LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I believe
that this is the first time, and it may be the last, that I
have called no Noble Peer to order, and I know not
whether I should not best consult the convenience of your
Lordships and myself, I took no notice whatever of
the speech of the Noble Marquis. But I must set
myself right in some few particulars. The Noble Mar-
quis has accused me of acting as Counsel for the offender.
The Marquis of LONDONDEBRY—No ; what I said
was, that your Lordship to„k that course which almost
induced me to believe you were nounsel for the offender.
The LORD CHANCELLOR —Well, good arguers,
like the, Noble Marquis, have got a way of wrapping
up their meaning in words little capable of being under-
stood. I am a plain man, and will state to your Lordships
without any of the semi-professional subtlety of the Noble
Marquis about what I really did yesterday. The Noble
Lord is perfectly right in allowing no mau to prevent him
discharging what he conceived to be his duty, and far be
it from me to say anything that would tend in
the smallest degree to make him retire from his duty in
Parliament. But I wish if the Noble Murquis has any
charge in connection with thin subject to bring against me,
or any other Member of this House, he would come
boldly, straightforwardly and manfully, anti, put it
in such a shape as that I can meet it. The
charge of the Noble Marquis would almost make
your Lordships believe that I had acted as counsel
for the culprit. The Noble Marquis has found it
very convenient, however, to give but an imperfect ac-
count of what I did say ; and I am in the judgment
of the House, whether I did not state, that whatever
might be the advice I should feel called upon to give your
Lordship that it was a case absolutely clear ag minst the of-
fending party. The result of my experience is, that the dis-
cussion of the privileges of this House tend nothing to
support its privileges and keep up its dignities. But, my
Lords, that I should agree, for a breach of privilege of
this destiption, that a man should be sentenced
to pay a fins of 1001., and imprisoned for six mouths
would be ut erly impassible. Before I did so, I must
have the nitt:er well silted. I could never
agree that an - individual should undergo such
punishment, who had been tried by no jury, who had had
rru counsel to take up hie defence, but merely on the sug-
eestion of a Noble Lord who thinks proper to get up
in his rest and make a complaint against bhp.—
If such timings were to be allowed every individual
in his Majesty's dominions would no doubt be liable, on
the the application of a Noble Lord, to be sent to Netvgate,
and confined interminably. if the Noble Marquis thinks
it is a matter of course that his Majesty's subjects should,

be
sent to prison every time *hey were charged with a
breach of privilege, he and I must argue that point.
For these reasons I, a friend of the privileges of this
House, and an enemy to any thing like a breach of
them, trust your Lordships will have the
otudence and the discretion. to pause on your
give in so solemn and grave a manner your Lordships
countenance to such questionable proceedings.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE proposed, that Mr.
Lawson should be ordered to appear at the Bar again
to•morrow, then to be reprimanded, and afterwards
fii arged ; but should any Noble Lord propose to carry,
the proposition further, it should have his decided oppo-
sition.

Earl GREY, who spoke almost inaudibly, was sup-
posed to say, that discussions on such subjects did not
enhance the dignity of that House.
Lord TENTERDEN said that when the Court of
Common Law ordered a fine to be paid, it invariably ac-,
companied that sentence by ord, ring the party to be con-
fined till it was paid ; and he could not conceive but that
both the Houses of Parliament had the same power. The
power was given for the sake of the public at large, and if
the blouses of Parliament had not the power of vindicating.
their privilege., there would be an end to all good order.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was surprised to hear
the Lord Chief Justice cf England declare that Parliament
had that power, which bad been disputed by the stoutest,
periods of Parliamentary privileges. This was a disputed.
power. Let any man bring forward a motion, and the
Noble and Learned Lord might be abla to persuade the
Houle that they had the power, but if lie did, he
the Lord Chancellor) should feel himself mistaken
If they had the power, the very circumstance of the
Noble Members of that House being the Judges of their own
cases—sot always the most calm, temperate, and dispas-,
sioaate Judges ought to satisfy them that when an individual
was brought before them without knowing the nature of,
the charge, without an indictment, without the assistance
of Counsel, that that defendant to Drake them
abst.in from exercising such power unless in
Cale of absolute necessity. The Noble and Learned Lord
iad :aid, that because Courts of Justice had the /power
of A ling, and committing a man unail be paid that
Lae, that, therefore, he thought the Houses of Parlia-
mat had the same power. Good !God ! Who had
en,. heard before of the House of Commons having such a,
p•or.a. ? He supposed the Noble and Learned Lord had
aaso meant to say that the House of Commons also
had the power to examine, and did examine, witnesses on
but no such thing was ever heard of before. Whenever
the Noble and Learned Lord, or any other Member of
that House thought proper to bring forward a regular
motion on the subject, lie should be prepared to meet them.
(LErr SITTING.)