The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

TILE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17, 1849.

isted—(Laughter)—but he hoped those who now enjoyed
that honour would act in a far different manner. For
his own part, he should give it every opposition which
the forms of the House permitted.
Mr. REYNOLDS having on a recent occasion spoken
of the manner in which the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland
acted, with great pain, felt it his duty to ask her Ma-
jesty's Government whether those prisoners now in cus-
tody in Silmainham gaol, as noticed by his Honourable
Friend the Member for Westmeath, were treated with
the severity to which public attention had been called?
He understood they were deprived of all opportunities of
seeing the public newspapers, and otherwise punished
with unnecessary severity; but, possibly, as that prison
was under the control of a board of superintendence, the
fault rested with them.

Sir GEORGB GREY replied that whatever culpa-
bility attached to the proceeding the Lord-Lieutenant of
Ireland was ready to take his due share of it—inas-
much as he approved of the step which had been taken
under the peculiar circumstances of the case. The fact
was, that six of them were removed from the criminal to
the debtor side of the prison, and indulgences allowed
them which they had not before enjoyed; but they then
availed themselves of the facilities afforded to commu-
nicate with the public papers, to write articles and letters
of a highly objectionable character. When remon-
strated with they refused to desist from the practice,
and the consequence was that their removal again
to the criminal side of the prison became a matter of
necessity.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR asked was it a fact that a Mr.
Meany, one of those confined, had, for writing a letter to
the Freeman's Journal, on the 9th of December last,
been told by Mr. Shaw, the High Sheriff of the county
of Dublin, that if he did so again he should remove to the
criminal aide; and that on the 31st of January, when he
had written another communication, the High Sheriff
again came and asked him why he did so ' • to which
Meany replied that as long as he had a griev •
ante to complain of, be should not be deterred from
exposing who injured him? It then appeared that the
High Sheriff called for a party of police, and had him
taken away by force.—(Loud cries of " Spoke, spoke.")
Honourable Gentlemen might cry out " Spoke, spoke,"
but if they were in that unfortunate individual's position
they would not say so. When the Right Honourable
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment admitted these things were done with the concur-
rence of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, it was time
that some inquiry should be made into the matter.—
(Loud cries or " Spoke, spoke.") If the House granted
him a Committee of Inquiry, he would undertake to
prove what he had stated. Five others were removed
at the same time against whom no charge whatever was
brought,

Sir GEORGE GREY had only again to state, that
although he had not heard before of the particular cir-
cumstances alluded to by the Hon. Member for Notting-
ham, he would again repeat, that they were removed
from one aide of the prison to another, and sent back
again, in consequence of what he had already informed
the House. With regard to a police force being used,
that became necessary in consequence of the individual
alluded to, avowing his intention of using force if any at-
tempt were made to remove him.
Mr. HUME asked the Right Hon. Gentleman why it
was that certain convicted parties in this country were
denied all access to the papers, and treated in other re-
spects with a severity very unusual in this country?
Sir GEORGE GREY replied, that though he was
aware of what the Hon. Member alluded to, yet the
Government had no power whatever to interfere. The
Act of Parliament placed the discretion in the judges,
and it was to them the application should be made.
Mr. ANSTEY said his opposition was not at all
abated, but as they had already decided the question, he
hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick
would not ask them to go to a division. He believed that
the Hon. Gentleman had made various misstatements in
his very long speech. For example, he said that the
letters and proclamations of the Lord-Lieutenant
would, under the Bill, have all the force of the law,
but in that he was grossly mistaken. The Act of
Parliament gave no such power; it authorised him to
arrest persons suspected of treason, and confine them to
any one of her Majesty's gaols as long as it pleased him.
The effect of the Hon. Gentleman's amendment would
b 3 to declare that a constituent asetubly, met for the
purpose of petitioning, would be high treason, and as he
could not agree that such a precedent should be set,
which was calculated to affect seriously the liberties of
the people, he should feel bound to vote in favour of her
Majesty's Government, if the measure were pressed to a
division.

Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed that at last a voice was
heard in that House in defence •f the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act.. English Members had spoken
against it; Scotch Members had spoken against it; but
a voice was raised from Youghal in its defence. They
had now declared war against the Irish people; but he
had no hesitation in saying that they would iu the end
be discomfited.

Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL bad beard of cottage law,
and certainly, to say as the Hon. Member for Youghal
had said, that that Rill would not give despotic powers
to the Lord-Lieutenant, was the most absurd thing he
ever heard of.

Mr. ANS rEY, amid loud' cries of " Spoke, spoke,"
denied he had ever said so. What he said was, that
it gave him power to arrest persons for treasonable
practices.

The House then dived. The numbers were—
For the amendment ... 12
Against it ... 94
Majority —B2
The report was received, and the Bill was ordered to
be read it third time.

RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the bringing up of the ref rt on the resolution
adopted in Committee of the while House, appropriating
a sum of 50.0001 for the relief of Irish distress,
Mr. P. SCHOPE moved the amendment of which he
had given notice, to the effect, that the sum to be voted
for that purpose be a loan, and not e grant. Future
grants must be applied for, otherwise the House would
be charged with allowing the people to die of starve-.
tion. It was, therefore, essential that a sound principle
should be at once adopted. The land in Ireland, if
properly cultivated, was quite able to support the able-
b )(lied population, and he did not see what right the
landowners end ratepayers of Connaught had to quarter
their poor upon other districts. The proper course to
pursue was to make the fee-simple of the land liable for
these rates. The present system rendered the cultiva-
tion of the land impossible, for as soon as it was culti-
vated the produce was seized for arrears of rate. Sup-
posing an estate had arrears of rate owing, to the
amount of 1,0001., that would be equivalent to a sen
tepee of perpetual barrenness, inasmuch as no person
would take the land subject to such a burden. There
were many estates in this condition. The lands were
in consequence uncultivated and thrown waste. What
excuse had they for paying these debts of bankrupt
landlords out of the Consolidated Fund? These men
benefited by the sums advanced, .and by enabling them
to maintain their present position, they were nothing
r. ge
better than dogs in the manger. It was only by gra-
dually ridding the country of these ruined proprietors of
the soil in the west of Ireland that any good could be
done. What he asked for the British public and rate -
payers was, that defaulting lands should be sold to pay
off the arrears of rates due. To that they must come at
last; and until they did so every step they took would
only increase the prevalent destitution and misery in
Ireland.—(Bear, hear,) He should then say a few
words on the second resolution, which was to the effect
that the money should be expended so far as was possible
upon productive labour of the able-bodied poor. There
were 21 unions in a state of insolvency. Ho would take
Bantle, and Westport as specimens. They had 9,000 able-
bodied poor and a population of 38,000 men. These
9,000 paupera, in two unions alone, they were called upon
to support, and he would ask whether they should not be
employed in productive labour? The relief works last
summer and the workshops in Paris would be thrown in
his teeth ; but they were failures simply because the
paupers were employed in unproductive labour. When
employed in useless works men would naturally be list-
less and idle. But experience proved that, when pro-
perly guided. neither in moral feeling nor industry were
Irishmen deficient.—(Hear, hear.) Men revolted from
employment on penal and useless works. Irishmen did
not want acuteness, and had, as well as Englishmen, a
keen perception.of what was intended as sham work
from real work. As a proof that it was only necessary
that the works should be really useful and productive
works, he found that it was stated in another place last
night, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colo-
nies, that the convicts employed on the garrison
works at Gibraltar bad earned 381. a head per an-
num each, while the cost of their maintenance was not
half that amount. He asked then, why they could not
provide profitable employment for their paupers as well
as their convicts ?—(Hear.) Let them adopt the ration
system in the one case as well as the other, instead of
shutting up the men ix workhouses, and keeping them
and their families in idleness.—(Hear.) Even if it cost
twice as much to keep them at work for a year or two,
it would be the cheapest in the end. They would be
sure to reap a return at the expiration of that time,
whereas by the present mode the whole was thrown
away. They owght to imitate the example of the
Quakers in Mayo, who bad employed the people profit-
ably on 500 acres of land. It. was intended by Provi-
dence that man should maintain himself by the sweat of
his brow, and when they considered that in these
twenty-one unions there were not less than 3,000,000
acres of waste but cultivable laud, which would form
an ample field for the labour of the unem-
ployed, he would ask, in the name of com-
mon sense, why these people should not be set to work?
These wastes were as capable of growing grain crops
and supporting stock as the wolds of Lincolnshire, or
of other parts of England which were formerly waste,
but now converted into fertile land. Then again another
point might be urged, namely, the moral effect of setting
the people to work in the manner he proposed. How
could they ever expect any material improvement in the
habits of the Irish people unless they accustomed them to
continuous labour ? In that light alone the principle of
reproductive employment was invaluable, and constituted
the only sound and lasting foundation for future improve.
ment. Ile would not further detain the House, but,
thanking it for the attention with which it heard him,
would conclude by moving the amendment.
Sir J. WALSH said the Hon. Member seemed on
this question to be totally impervious to the teaching of
experience.--(A laugh.) The Hon. Member had for
many years called for an efficient poor-law fur Ireland;
and now when, mainly owing to his perseverence, an
efficient poor-law had been enacted, which had totally
beggared a large portion of the country, and
was likely in future to beggar more, the Honourable
Member persisted in urging other theoretical notions with
that obstinacy which eharacterised deluded enth'usiasts,
in the hope of carrying out some other part of their wild
schetnes.—(Hear, hear.) With one part of the Hon.
Member's speech he could concur. The Hon. Member
heti argued, with considerable effect, a rate in aid. He
(Sir J. Walsh) must say diet he was quite surtirised at
the clearuese of the lion. Members argument jon this t

point; and it only showed what clear views he could
express when necessary for his own purpose. He was
not aware whether the subject was before the House or
not, but he believed it had attracted a considerable
amount of attention elsewhere. It was reported, whe-
ther truly or not, he was not aware, that the door of
the Cabinet was lately a little ajar, and that hearing a
knock, the Premier had asked, in the words of the
nigger melody, " Who's that knocking at the door?"
and in reply, the head and shoulders of the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon had made
their appearance. But whether it was that the Right
Honourable Baronet did not like the company he found
himself in, or to what other cause it was owing
he could not tell, but he drew back saying, " I beg
your pardon, I will call another day." He did not pre-
tend to speak with certainty upon the subject, but he
believed the Right Hon. Baronet had been influenced in
no slight degree by the understood opinions of the
Cabinet on this question of a rate in aid. There were
many general reasons why a rate in aid would in prin-
ciple always act viciously, and in the present state of
Ireland such a rate would be peculiarly objectionable.
If they taxed the wealthy and thriving people of Belfast,
for instance, for the support of the poor in the southern
and Western part of the country, they would be entitled
at once to say you have given up the principle of local
taxation—we are part of a great united empire, and we
claim that this shall be made an imperial question, and
receive imperial assistance. With respect to the other
views of the Hon. Member for Stroud, they involved, in
fact, the principles of M. Proudhon, and he was aston-
ished they should have been addressed to a British
assembly. First of all he proposed to drag the land-
lords of Ireland to the ground by a weight of taxation
they were not able to bear, and then, having beggared
them, he said the land would then be liberated, and
fall into the hands of other proprietors, who would be
able to give employment to the people, and cultivation
thus restored. He would have asked the Hon. Member,
if be had not retired from the House, how the land
would be benefited by this process, or the ruin of the
present landlords. The destitution which weighed them
down would still exist, and press equally upon new pro-
prietors. He could not see how they were to be bene-
fited by succeeding to an inheritance of burdens which
had ruined their predecessors. In the next place the
Hon. Member brought forward that favourite word with
Irish politicians, " the public interest " This was again
merely a repetition of the views of M. Proudhon—it was
merely saying, le propriete sat un vol. It meant to destroy
the rights of private property after the manner of the
Louis Blanc school; but it the Hon. Member would refer
to the example of Williams-town, he would see that the
plan he proposed bad been tried upon a limited scale,
and bad been attended with the failure which was the in-
evitable fate of all such wild and mischievous schemes.
Passing however from the theories of the Hon. Member
for Stroud, he would state that his great and leading
objection to the proposed grant was that it did not
embody the principle included in the resolution which
the Gallant. Major behind him intended to propose last
night, and which was well worthy the attention of the
House. That resolution affirmed that remunerative
employment was necessary, but the present grant con-
tained nothing that would act in that direction, or do
otherwise than widen the circle of the evils now existing
in Ireland. He was well aware of the difficulty of her
Majesty's Government in dealing with this question.
Common humanity induced not only them, but many of
his own friends to shrink from refusing a grant to alle-
viate the destitution now existing, but seeing that the
grant of 50,0001. was so totally inadequate to the ob-
ject in view, he thought he should but be discharging
his duty by forcing her Majesty's Ministers to the con-
sideration of more effective remedies. He was of opi-
nion that such remedies could be found; and though he
had no wish to detain the House, yet he trusted they
would bear with him while he briefly stated his views
on the subject—views which were the result of much
consideration and some experience. (Hear, hear.)
Now he asked, whether the question of emigration
had attracted attention in that House? Ho could
tell them that, out of doors, it had attracted much, and
would attract more; and, limited as the grant of 50,0001.
was, if it had been intended to relieve these unions by
applying it to promote emigration, he should have voted
for it with some hope of its doing good. It was said by
the Hon. Member for Stroud, and other English Mem-
bers, that Ireland was capable of supporting more than
double its present population. But those who made that
statement totally overlooked the actual state of the
country. If they had the manufactures of Glasgow or
the rich vales of the Lothians to fall back upon, it might
be true; but when Hon. Members talked of Ireland sup-
porting a larger population, they forgot that this must
be preceded by ameliorative measures, and that it would
take a hundred years at least to arrive at
the results they looked forward to. He believed
that emigration would be beneficial if it was
carried to a much more limited extent than
was generally spoken of, if in connexion with it they
applied topical remedies to merely topical evils. He
was aware how unpleasant it was to the House to have
private matters brought before its notice, but he hoped
that he should be excaved in stating the results of his
own experience, his only motive being to show what
could be practically effected, and the means of doing so.
He was the owner of a considerable property, which
came into his possession when he came of age, and was
at that time principally in the hands of middlemen; a
great portion of it was in the union of Listowel, which,
though not in so wretched a state as some of the unions
that had been mentioned, was also in a vary distressed
condition. He was happy to say that thero were not five
persons residing on his property who were receiving pa-
rochial relief, and yet the House would wonder- that he
had bees compelled to pay rates of 9s. 6d in the pound
to the support of the poor in other parts of the union. It
was to him a serious favt, and he raid not decoy that he had
a deep interest in the question of sates which this z,
away his property. From the time that he had come Into
the possession he had devoted himself to its improve
merit, and also of the condition of those who resided
upon it, and he could assure Hon. Members that it was
a difficult and a tedious task the proprietor who entered
upon it had—to encourage and aid the good and willing
tenants—to stir up the apathetic, and, in extreme cases,
to get rid of bad ones—however unpopular it might
make him. It was indeed only by constant and patient
perseverance that a poor could be converted into a pros-
perous and iraproving tenantry. He had always endea-
voured to prevent the sub-division 'of property. He had
turned his attention to emigration as a remedy, and he
had at length induced a great number of people, between
one add two hundred, to emigrate to Canada, in le.t7
and,lB4B. This, too, was at the time that the Colonial-
office was endeavouring to prevent emigration to the
colonies, and when they were told that the Cana-
dians were setting their faces against any
further influx of Irish paupers. Notwithstanding
the difficulties and diseeuragements thrown in
the way of emigration at that time by the Government,
he was happy to say that every one of those who
had emigrated, so far as he had been able to trace their
fate, had been successful. The Hon. Member then read
several letters from emigrants, for the purpose of show-
ing the prosperity which had attended their removal to
Canada. The subject of emigration was very often
talked of as au abstract question, and it was therefore
that he had taken the liberty of reading tho documents
to the House, as' he thought they ought to carry a con-
siderable weight with them, although they bad not the
official character of a: blue book. He was of opinion that
they should trace many of the evils complained of to the
effects of the law that gave relief to the able-bodied. Of
the three Commissioners under the Act, two of them
were connected with the Government of the day ; had
the power of taxing and of sweeping away all the pro-
perty of Ireland.' The people of England ought to know
that this was not a mere landlord question, though it
was frequently represented that it was. He declared that'
it was not a landlord question, but involved the happi-
ness of the entire community. They could not, if they
wished it, ruined the landlord without ruining the tenant
also. He was of opinion that the attention of the Com-
mittee upon emigration should bo called to the evils
which were inflicted upon the country by the operation
of the poor-law. He had heard it said that things
would right themselves, and that although in the mean-
time there might be great suffering in Ireland, the coun-
try would ultimately attain to a sound and healthy state.
But he denied that any such opinions were well founded,
and that unless they altered the poor-law, the condition
of Ireland would be improved.

Lord DRUMLANRIG said he could not vote for the
measure of Government. Of all the speeches that had
been addressed to the House, he had listened with most
attention to the one that had been delivered by the Hon.
Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), and in that
speech his Right Hon. Friend had said that the time
was come when Government must review the entire taxa-
tion of Ireland. He thought that in the present emer-
gency of Ireland, Government ought to have been pre-
pared to have brought forward a measure of a compre-
hensive character. So impressed was he with the inten-
sity of the distress that prevailed in Ireland, that unless
something were now done for that country, he believed
it was never likely to recover from its present prostrate
and miserable condition. After what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) he (Lord
Drumlanrig) eould not understand how that Right Hon.
Gentleman could vote for the grant, although he had
said he could not .give his assent to the continuance of
such demands. Now it was evident that unless this coun-
try had some security that this system of grants would
not be continued for Ireland, it would only become
the House steadily and firmly to give their refusal.
in uttering what he had said, he wished it to be under-
stood that he was actuated, by- no feeling, of bitterness
towards Ireland—(Hear)—for he nelieved that no coun-
try had been so tried with such severe distress. He
must, however, say that men had been sent into that
House to represent Ireland, who had pursued a system
of bullying and 'swaggering and endeavouring by every
means to excite that most exciteable of people, the pea-
santry of Ireland; men who had never suggested during
a long series—ef—years- any measure of a practical cha-
racter
for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But what could they
expect when an Hoti. Member 'could come down to that
House and make such ridiculous motions as moving for
returns of killed and wounded at the battle of Ballin-
Hrry, during the late outbreak—(Hear, hear, from Mr.
. Grattan)— and also moving for a call of the House
when he must have ,known that at the present season of
the year it was next to impossible that such a motion
could be of any effect. The slmo Hon. Member had
also made a speech of a laughable, it not ridiculous cha-
racter, at a time, too, that Ireland was in such a miser-
able condition. He had been compelled to listen to that
speech, which he di.l with no pleasant feelings, remind-
ing aim as it did that " Nero fiddled while Rome was
burning." The Noble Lord concluded by repeating that
his hostility to the grant was not dictated by any hostile
feelings towards Ireland.
Mr. M'GREGOR said that, having voted with the
Government- for the proposed grant, he wished to be
permitted to explain why he had done so. He had found
a great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in
its favour, especially when he recollected that Ireland
paid no window tax and no assessed taxes, and also that
she was free from the operation of many of the,Excise

taxes. He had also to recollect the great distress which
the city he represented (Glasgow) endured from Irish
distress, and that recently the influx of the Irish poor
had quadrupled the poor-rate in that city. He had,
therefore, great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to
vote in favour of the small grant of 50,0001. which the
Government had proposed; but, when he recollected
that some of the unions had entered into engagements,
and had, possibly, spent a part of the money now to be
voted—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—he could not hesitate
to vote in its favour. He had, however, voted for it on
the ground that it would be the last grant that would be
taken out of the revenue of tho country; and he ex-
pected that in future Government would lay on the
whole property of Ireland a tax of so much in the pound,
to meet the exigencies of the country.—((sear, hear.)
He could not help referring to the extensive immigra-
tion into Glasgow from Ireland, and of a class, too, inoa-
pable of working—children, and old men and women.
Taking into account the number of loans that had br en
made to Ireland, he would prefer that the present sum
should be given rather as a gift than es a loan. He
could not, under the circumstances in which many ;of
the unions were placed, bring himself to vote against the
present grant.

Mr. NAPIER said he was satisfied if they thought
that a people who had shown se much generosity as the
people of this country had shown, would not be wilfully
unjust—(Hear, hear)—and he felt that if the Irish
Members would endeavour to instruct them as to the
real condition of Ireland, they would do better than by
an indulgence in language of a severe or retaliatory
character.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulties of Ireland
could no longer be evaded—(Hear,hear)—if Ireland was
to be continued in political union with England. She
was taken into partnership at the time of the Union,
but instead of enjoying the advantages which
that event promised her, she had only been made
the watchword of party—(Hear)—and the battlefield on
which party politics were fought. No one could doubt
that it would be a great advantage to conciliate Ireland,
and to assimilate her to the condition of England. That
could not be done suddenly; but it must be recollected
that Ireland had now been for half a century united to
England, and yet nothing could be more wretched than
the spectacle she presented. It could not be borne that she
should be continued in such a position, and coming year
after year, like a mendicant, imploring for aid.—( :ear,
hear.) It was fit that that House should join together
and endeavour, by wise counsels, to ascertain what were
the causes which placed that country in her unhappy
and miserable condition, with a view to their anti. e re-
moval and extirpation. At the time of the union it
would be recollected that the religious and political
questions which had so long agitated that country were
not settled. But it came down to the year 1829, when
the measure of Catholic emancipation was carried. He
would remind Hon. Members that at that time a great
body of evidence was give❑ before the Committee that sat
upon that question, to the effect that nearly one-fourth of
the population were without any certain employment.—
(Hear, hear.) At the time that Catholic emancipation
was carried, it was understood that all parties were will
ing to co-operate in improving the condition of the
country. At that time the Catholic hierarchy of Ireland
put forth a manifesto, declaring that Ireland wanted no
turther political advantages, and why, he would ask,
did not the Government of England then take up the ques-
tion of the social evils under which Ireland laboured ?
( Hear.) It had not done so, and England was now
paying for the neglect of that duty.—(Hear.) The
Hon. Member then referred to the Committees which
had eat upon the state of Ireland in 1830, 1833, and
1835, and stated that the reports of these Committees
had agreed in the neglect with which successive Go•
vernments had acted towards Ireland, and the necessity
of an immediate change in the course of policy pursued
towards that country. The recommendations of these
Committees had been neglected, and hence that
beautiful and fertile country presented at the
present moment nothing but misery and desti-
tution.—(Hear, hear.) Each succeeding Commit-
tee blamed its predecessor, again and again re-
peating that one-fourth of the population were out
of employment; and that the application of capital was
the only means of bettering their condition. The House
must not lose sight of the fact that Indeed had an en-
cumbered landed proprietary, and that although they had
in the last session passed a Bill for facilitating the sale of
encumbered estates, not a single property had yet been
sold under the provisions of that Bill.—(Hear.) There
was no labour fund or capital in that country, the pro-
perty was encumbered, and the resources of Ireland were
diminished, while no stimulant was applied to industry.
One million of the rental of Ireland was under the Court
of Chancery, and there could be no improvement on those
estates. It was a large series of practically simple mea-
sures they required for the amelioration of the country,
and not what was calif d comprehensive measures. The
recommendations of the experienced Secretary to the
Devon Commission, in the year 1846, had not been
attended to, and the report of the Commission ap-
pointed in the year 1845, just preceding the famine
of 1846, met with a similar fate. The pledge given
by Lord Lansdowne that there would be measures of an
ameliorative character had not been fulfilled. The im-
perfections of • the poor-law were manifest; but, on the
other hand, he admitted that the generosity of the Eng-
lish people in relieving the destitution which afflicted his
country had no parallel in English history. There were
three classes of persons in Ireland subject to the, payment
of poor's rates —the proprietors, the tenant farmers, and
the clergy. He admitted that the money contributed by
the English people had fed the hungry; but at the same
time there could be no doubt that it demoralised the
people of Ireland. After the cutting up of the roads and
half finishing public works, it was well known that the
poor population was in a worse condition than it had
been found, the poverty of the country was increased,
while its resources were diminished. That:being the
state of thinge, property was called upon to bear the
burden of the poor-law, which, even in ordinary
times, should have been accompanied by measures to
stimulate industry. When the Poor law Act was
passed, in the reign of Elizabeth, he found that that
very session there was legislation for the purpose of re-
claiming thousands of acres of waste land in England,
and the poor able-bodied population were engaged on
useful public works. If the Irish poor-law had been
accompanied by measures of employment, and the ener-
gies of the people aroused, then the burden imposed on
property for the support- of poverty could have been
borne, and the country might have survived. Look at
the miserable poverty-stricken condition of Ireland. He
admitted that the Government had great difficulties to
contend with in legislating for Ireland, but difficulty
was no answer to duty.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could
possibly be more injurious to Ireland than holding out
prospects of legislating for evils which the energies of
the Irish people alone could remove. The proprietors
had only shattered incomes—there was no market for
labour in the country, there was an absence of anything
like capital, yet no measure of a statesman-like character
had been introduced. The measures brought forward by
a Noble Lord, now called to his last account, and with
whom he had not the honour of being acquainted, were
of a character calculated to develope the resources of the
country, and they characterised him, at all events, as an
honest Englishman, anxious for the good of Ireland.—
(Hear.) The agricultural improvement of the country
was the main thing to be attended to, and they could not
do that without capital. A few nights since they were
promised a Franchise Bill, but it was legislation in that
spirit which was the curse of Ireland. He begged of the
House to meet the difficulties which presented themselves
fairly and honestly. The Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland
said that the country required repose, and he (Mr. Na-
pier) begged, that as agitation had subsided they should
have some measures for promoting the employment of
the people. There never was a nobler opportunity, they
might depend upon it, for a wise statesman than the pre-
sent, for reconstructing large portions of Ireland on a
permanent and peaceful footing. He was not one of those
who desired to screen his country from fair taxation;
but they should candidly examine her circumstances,
weigh her deliberately in the scale, and when they did so,
place on her whatever burden she was in justice bound
to bear. Capital, he repeated, was the great requirement.
With regard to those ,proprietors who had capital, and
who were willing to expend it on the improvement of
their estates and the employment of the people—they
were entitled to protection, for every man anxious to do
his duty ought to be protected in the performance cf that
duty ; and the best mode of effecting this was to care-
fully avoid the system of increasing the liability of the
improving landlord, who, by the expenditure of his
capital, and the encouragement of labour, increased the
value of his property. Improvement ought to be a protec-
tion against instead, as it now appeared was the case, of
being a direct incentive to increased taxation. If the
Legislature, with increased wisdom, retraced their false
steps, and legislated for Ireland in the manner which he
had ventured to point out, they would set up that
country again in the scale of nations, and in the progress
of civilization, place her side by side with England.
Mr. HORSMAN eulogised the interesting and in-
structive character of the speech just delivered by the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin,
and stated that the circumstances which he had detailed
were in themselves sufficient to induce him to give his
vote in favour of the Government proposition, and
against the amendment of the Hon. Member for Stroud.
Besides, he could not support that amendment, inas-
much as it assumed that in acceding to the vote asked by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer they had any choice
in the matter. He was decidedly opposed to the prin-
ciple of grants in aid of Irish distress; but then the
Government had made a strong appeal to their humanity,
which he for one could not resist, and on any other
ground they bad not a leg to stand on. He felt and ad•
mitted, to the fullest extent, that those grants had a de-
moralising tendency on the people: but the question
they had to consider was, whether, under the peculiar
circumstances of Ireland, the appeal made to them should
not be affirmatively responded te. When the crisis
came, and the maintenance of the poor was thrown on
the property of the country, the burden of the rate
broke down those by whom the rates were to be paid.
A devastating famine stalked through the land—there
was nothing like it in the history of the world—the
whole property of Ireland was confiscated to the support
of the poor of Ireland, yet still the poor were in a state
of famine. He could not, as a Christian Legislator, re-
fuse, under those circumstances, his sanction to the vote,
which was rendered imperative by every precept of the
Christian code. Nor could he attach to the vote the
conditions required lay the Hon. Member for Stroud.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had
emphatically and properly declined to pledge himself
that the present grant would be the last asked fur the
purpose of relieving Irish distress. lie did not
acknowledge it as part of his policy, but he admitted he
was bowed down to it from a feeling of its necessity. If
similar circumstances egain -mesa he (Mr. Horsman)
would be compelled by those circumstances to support
another vote; but there was ample security in the tone
and temper of Parliament, and of the debate, which in-
dicated that they would not be trifled with on that im-
portant question, and that the Minister relying on future
grants would prepare for himself certain defeat. He
blamed Government for not being prepared with other
measures of a more statesman-like character, and more

certain to prove permanent in their results.—(klessa'
hear.) Instead of those measures, they had nothing but
a Committee, which was merely a makeshift when the
time for action had arrived. The agriculture of the
country was destroyed, and there should not now be any
impediments interposed to its revival. What Ireland
required was the re-establishment of healthy agricule
rural relations. There were three impediments to her
agricultural improvements :—lnsecurity of life, the bur-
den of local taxation, and the diffieultiee and expense in
the way of the transfer of property. Each of those was
in process of gradual diminution. The first crime was
disappearing with the inducement to commit it—namely
evictions and depopulation, both of which had been car-
rit dto the utmost extent. The burden of local taxation
had been committed to the consideration of a Select
Committee, and he should not venture to anticpate their
report ; but he certainly would feel surprised if they
did not devise some system by which the idle and indus-
trious would no longer be classed together. With re-
spect to the difficulties in the way of the transfer of land,
the Act of last seseien for Facilitating the Sale of En-
cumbered Estates was a failure ; but, even if it had been
the most perfect measure, it could not, under the circum-
stances of the country, have been operative up to the
present time. The want of capital was one obstacle to
its success. To carry out the provisions of that Act it
was necessary that there should be a party willing to
sell and another to buy ; but, in the present state
of the country, there was, he conceived, few
who would have any great anxiety to become
Irish proprietors. If, however, they removed the bur-
den of those rates from the property of Ireland, they
would disentangle that law from the difficulties which
surrounded it, and that, combined with other improve-
ments, would have the effect of making the Act opera-
tive. They might also make a healthy addition to the
system—for if proprietors were no longer terrified by
those rates a step in advance might be taken in the for-
mation of small estates.—(Hear, hear.) There ware
many men not able to purchase extensive estates who,
if these were broken down, would readily become pur-
chasers of small portions of them; and were that donee
a class of proprietors would be formed who would be Of
immense benefit to the country. Holding these views,
he was inclieed to give his support to the measure. He
did it upon no principle higher than that on which he
would relieve a beggar, a dying beggar in the street. He
might be told by political economists that he was wrong;
that while he relieved the mendicant he oppressed so-
ciety. But. there were cceasions when there was more
virtue in the suspension of a law than in its rigid en-
force went; and if now he violated one law, he did so in
obedience to another, to which he owed a more implicit
submission.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MONSELL begged to thank the Hon. ,Gentlee
man for the kindliness of tone which pervaded his
speech.—(Hear, hear.) The amendment of this Hoe•
Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) might be disposed
of by the simple statement that it raised a mere question
of words; for the Honourable Gentleman could, hardly*
really expect to obtain money from those districts to
which it was about to be advanced. His (Mr. Monselrs)
object in rising was to direct attention to the syistem' of
which this grant was a part—a system vicious add hurt'
ful to the empire at large, but especially to Irelatjd. He
was not speaking of the introduction ot an extended poor'
law—he thought that the greatest benefit ever con'
ferred upon that country ; but the system of lier Ms'
jesty's Government was that of bolstering up the poor'
law by public grants—a system which squeezed caps'
tal out of the country, and made it possible for the GO'
vernment to abstain from introducing those auxiliary
measures without which the poor-law could not work
—(Hear, hear.) He did not care whether the mom/
came from England or from an Irish rate in aid—thie
system would break down the country.—(Hears, hear.)
The mischief would epread; it was said that there were
twenty-one unions in want now—there would be twenty
more before the end of the year.—(Hear, hear.) The
difficulty in Ireland was the disproportion between
capital and labour; and why did not the superabundant
capital of this country go to Ireland?—(A laugh.) De;
cause Ireland was not put into a state to receive it. BY,
the system of large electoral divisions the capital that
was there was locked up, wed much was driven from the
country, and, by not :more ing some comprehensive mese
sure with regard to emigration, we were preventing the
proper proportion between capital and labour from oh'
raining.—(Hear, hear.) Grants from England did Ire'
land harm—(Hear, hear)—all he (Mr. Monsell) wanted
was to see her enabled to raise money upon her own re'
sources, and for that purpose he had not the least objee'
tion to a rate in aid, or an income-tax placed upon Ire'
land. But he protested egainst either if it was :only f°
prep up a vicious system which would destroy the re'
sources of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE had listened with pleasure to the
speech of the Hon. Member for Dublin University (xtri
Napier), a speech which the House had seldom heard
equalled by any Member proceeding from the Univer"
sity.—(Hear, and a laugh.) There was but one thin%
to be regretted, namely, that he did not inform the
House how he intended to vote with regard to the grant
—(A laugh)—but as he had maintained that all
thß
grants from this country to Ireland had been attended
with unmitigated evil, it was fair to infer that he mean!
to vote against this.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Osbtoronul
ht hod
felt compelled to vote against it because he h
wouli be of no earthly use; the calculation was he bee
lieved, that it would just last till Saturday fortnight.;
(Hear.) He looked upon it as nothing more than an
opportunity afforded to the Government to delay thoss
~
long talked-of measures with which her Majesty's
nisters bad been big since 1841—(A laugh)—measure
that must be described as a sort of political " Mrs. 116 r;
ris"—(A laugh)—only the darkest allusions were
tea',:
to them in that House, and no man had ever yet see-
them.—(Hear.) The grant would be of no use to 000
whims it was intended to relieve; better that their Pre;
tracted misery should be put ail end to.—(Oh!) .
was a spurious humanity; he for one would sooner h
swept from the face of the earth than drag on from del,
to day by means of Parliamentary grants.—(" Oh, 013,
and a laugh.) It was only keeping body and soul ',e°,
gether; the relief in the west of Ireland was not sou''
cient to keep men as men—it was just sufficient to debt's,:
them to the level of brutes.—(Hear, hear.) The apply
cation of the English poor-law to Ireland was a greet
blunder; it was a curse to the country. In the soe"e
and west it was altogether a failure, and no tinkerill
with a loan would meet the difficulties we had create°;
Of the 130 unions into which Ireland was divided, 11(
were in debt beyond their means, and this exclusive °,
loans from Government and aid from the British Asse°L
ciation; they owed 250,0001., having received 241,00uv
besides, and the association having also fed 200,0°
children. In 36 unions paid guardians had been are
pointed, and it would have to be done in half t
unions in the south and west. Ireland had no le:,
than sixty persons to 100 cultivated acres, and, n'af
like England and Belgium, the greater proportion
_d
the population were engivred, not in manufactures oss
commerce, but in agriculture; and they were rags,
in the districts worse adapted for ngrilf
ture. The largeness of the area of taxation was not co
a rod for the landlord, but made the system intolerably
to the claimant for relief. In most of the unions: 4:j
seetred, he might have to walk 40 miles; one case ileej
been stated where he had to go 150. On a coroner
itiqu-st lately in Newcastle it appeared that a man, wits
his wife and child, had to walk three several journears
48 Irish miles. So long as the present proportion beld
good between the population and the rate of valuee_e
is
the property in the various unions, so long would °.
people continue in a state of destitution, and grants
116
;
required. He warned the Government that if the
system of out-door relief went on for six months aa,
"
Ireland, it would become impossible to save that unforte.
nate country. The same sore that was now eating into the
vitals of the west and south of Ireland would soon exteei
all over the kingdom. The Committee of the House, of
Lords had declared the relief of the able-bodied ass poee)
that would prove injurious to the community. •"•".
Twisleton said " it vvould be a fatal step to introduce OW
door relief to the able-bodied population." Lord Lets;
downe, in 1846, spoke of it as being a system of a -,
cious character, and one that " must lead to the le
plete confiscation of the property of Ireland." And the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) in 1846 said—"lle
not expect such a law would relieve the miseries of Ire'
land, and he much feared that instead of a remedy ;,
would tend to perpetuate that misery." And be eOO
pressed the hope that " some scheme for the cultivation
of the waste lands would immediately be carried I°o
operation."—(Hear, hear.) Then, why had not l'e
Noble Lord propounded his scheme of home colonizatio's
—(Hear, hear.) lie would tell the Noble Lord thav
there must be a series of measure for Ireland; that ,15
one measure would relieve the destitution of tPitty
country; and he called upon the Noble Lord not ,
throw the responsibillity of considering those Ova
sures upon Committees, as was now the practice
almost every instance. Schemes of colonization an
of emigration would never reach the evils of kelell
and he would tell the Noble Lord that till be assimilate
a
l,
the laws of real and personal property in that country
and freed the land from the feudal fetters that ate
encircled it, no real benefit would be conferred on P-0(
land. They were told that Ireland was in a stiti,3
transition; but the only transition he saw was that tu4
ya
were getting from bad to worse. Let them not deceis,
themselves with the belie f that the evils of Ireland Wea,
cats d only by the cooduet of the people and the 100,1
10rd,,. The „nett cause of the present state of Irels
was vicious legislation. They used those landlordac
f
long as they were usetul to them, and the moment'lis
„e,
were found to be of no use they threw them off.—(r„,", risrl
hear.) People talked of grants to Ireland, but he 0-ot,
that since the Union no less a sum than 18,000,000
had been lent to England and Scotland, and of that st:ia
only 6,000,0001. had been repaid, whereas 9,000,000 L P„it
been tent to Ireland, and of that sum 7,000,000/1" been repaid.—(Hear.) He did not think, therefore,
when they struck the balance rightly the Pe°,,,aPlaear,) England and Scotland had anything to boast of.-0"*"-00'
He would conclude with this, that if their present r
licy towards Ireland were continued there would be Pao
petuated in that country a state of things described
0,";
art old historian —a No right, no control, no society
the life of man nasty, brutish, and short."—(Hear.) ijl
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—IaseLiv
endeavour' shortly to recal the attention of the .L".°010
to that which it seems to have lost sight of for sego
boars, viz., the amendment of the Hon: Meznbero'cia
Stroud. We have had from various speakers a ,gbut
many speculations on the general state of Irelaen•beve
little or nothing has for a considerable time Pas' to
said on the subject 'of the amendment brought beforeisua
House by that lion. ;Gentleman. My Hon. Farievat
who spoke last taunted the Hon. Gentleman the
made
leer for the University of Dublin with having ree°°a he
speech without informing the House in what WSJ vs;
intended to give his Vote on the question novabefoTtoeseia
but, to my apprehension, the Hon. Gentleman Ws, iao
is liable to the charge which he has brought agni°s„,vise
Member for for the University of Dublin. Ile ;,"shis;
about the improvement of waste lands; and, from
the
posed has said upon that point, it might almost to the
posed that he was willing to give his suPrtat
poQ
amendment of the Hen. Member for Stroud,; =but
that subject he has given • ther'Hotitteittititio'

NIFf

thing but
then tho
e of the
w be any
Ireland
agricul•
is to her
the bur-
:pense in
hose was

ime wag

—namely

wen car-

Se
Nhich
reet So
wrong;
ssed so'
viss more
rigid en-
did so in
implicit