The Sun.
London, England, 1814-07-16 00:00:00

CIVIL LIST.

The CHANCELLOR of the ExcnEatma stated,
that the Civil List might, be divided into, twn
branches ; the Household Department, and the
Political and Civil Expenditure. 16 the former
there had been a small .diminution ;, in the latter
an increase. He then enumerated divers classes •
in which augentation, had takenplace. In the Ist
and 2{l classes there was no variation. In the 3d,•
concerning,allowaoces to Ministers abroad, there
was a considerable increase.; anionn ring to 13,000/.
From. thiS, however, 'BOOO/. should .in future be
deducted, • arising from pensions which Should
cease to be paid to Ambassadors when employ'ed.
In the. fourth class, consisting of the Bills of
the different departmentS of the -Household, the
augmentation did not exceed 2,0001. In the sth,
or the Salaries of the Lord Chamberlain's Depart-
ment, it. was 2,500/. In the 6th Class, respecting •
Pensions and Compensations, there was a decrease
of-SOON. In trie 7th and Bth, the variations did
not pass a, few hundred pouiids. In the 9th, or
Occasional Payments, which consisted of several
items, in which the allowance to. Foreign Minis-
ters alone had increased 10,0001.,; there was.an
augmentation 'of 30,000/. In• the year 1813, ,the
amount of expenditure in that class, was 95,0591.;
•in- that ending
.tlie • sth April, 1814, it rose to
.125,186/. Total amount of the Civil List in'
1813, 1,309,8051.;' in. 1804, 1,349,9001. .11l the
revenue of the year 1813 there had been a defi-
ciency' of 216,936/, and in that of .1814, Of
254,90Q1. in all 471,856/. To meet this deficiency, •
353,0001. had he•en taken out of the. Droits of
Adniiraltv and the Danish prizes, but a sum
amounting. to 118;8561. still remained tipaid.—
He should, therefore, now move a grant to that
amount t'o make up the deficiency of the . Civil
List up to the sth of April, 1814. He should
defer moving any grant to replace the former
sum taken out of •the Droits .of Admiralty,
until the end of the year. When the •ffinount
of these sums was compared %vitt] what had
been done to receive and entertain the Illns-
trious Visitors who had appeared at the Bri-••
tish Court, he trusted they would appear mo•-.
(Aerate. Some of preparations intended for the
Allied Sovereigns, had, through some circum--
stances, not been completed in time ; but this was
no sufficient reason why, at a time like the pre-
sent, they should .have been given up. If the So-
vereign of this Country possessed such palace's as
the• 'rest of European Monarchs, such frequent
grants Wourd not be wanted. But iii their stead,
he
,waS compelled to cause temporary buildiogs to
be created, which occasioned' a considerable ex-
penditure. The Gentlemen on the other side of
the need not, hOWevcr, be alarmed, 'for
:it was not his
,intention_at this late period of the
;Session, to propose a grant Of any satin to erect a
suitable Palace -forthe Regent. The Honourable.
Gentlethan having then moved his Resolution,
Mr. TIERLIii Jose. He thought the subject
demanded consideration. He comrlained that, in
the Report of the Civil List, -the year ,was, made
to. finish on the sth of April, which:rendered • it
• impossible to have time accounts at 'a snfficiently
early period to investigate them properly. lie had
declined last year being on the Committee, as he.
did not like to lend himself to such mockery. He
begged it to be understood that he, did not mean
to accuse 4ny person-concerned of not being able
satisfactorily to. account for the way in, whl'ell the-
various . sums were expended. by them. But it
was. a very alarming circumstance, that, for
the last' ten years, there had 'been a
.gradual
annual increase of 30,0001. in the Civil List.-,
From 1804 to 1812 this • increase was, 124,0001.
and. for the two last years, this was aug-
Mem:, I to 240,0001. above what it had been
in 1804. This shoved that 'there was, something
wrong in the maaagenrent. He would tal:e the hi-
•lowance to flie Tituval Fainsily as a sample of the
extravagance with whiCh these matters were con-
ducted. The total amount of stile Civil List, in-
eluding the grant from the Consolidated Fund to
the Royal Family; was 1,700,(JUN. Of this sum
571,0001. was gii'en to the Royal Farnily, He'
complained of the extent of the Wiudsor Estab-•
lishment. The King Was allowed 160,0001_ per
ann. her Maje Sty bad 68,000/. each of, the Prin-
cesses 16,0001. besides the 30,0001. grant made
lately. To this were to be added,- 10,0001. to the •
King, front the,Dueby of Lancaster. Altogether,
the Windsor Establishment cost 2;90,0001. a year, -
in...hard cash, exempted from taxes, and this, he
said was too much. The Prince Regent had
60,0001. a-year for his privy purse,- and ten
thousand pounds- a-year in addition. lie never
could hear any just reason for this addition, for it
was exactly 10,0001. more than had been al-
lowed to his Majesty, when Prince of Wales.—
Including this, the grant from the Consolidated
Fund, &c. the total income' of the- Prince Re-,
gent, by the Civil List, xs'as 148,000/. per an 7
num. 'Of this, he allowed 22,0001: annually to
the Princess of Wales, and 50,000/. for the pay-,
milt of his Own debts, which left to his Royal.
Highness a clear annual iocozne•of 76,0001. He
went into all this, to shew the necessity of having a
Committee appointed to examine witnesses on this
Subject and he -hoped he had said enough to,
shew the impossibility of Parliament voting these
SUMS properly, without such an examination.—
This was a subject more important now from the
situation of the country, as the Droits of the Ad- '
.miralty, which supplied so large a•sum for this
branch of expenditure, could not be expected .
to be so productive. during peace, so that, bye
and bye, Parliament would find itself obliged
to 'provide for 250,0001. annually in some
other. way, if .. the `expellees were -coati-
nued on the present 'scale.—lt was to beob tt
-
served, that time excess of the expellees for the en-, ,
tertainineut of the -Royal 77,0001 i 1

above ihe estimate: As -to the preparations still
i4oingOn, if the Right Hon: Gentibtrithi lidd pro-
vided a plan and estintate of the. buildingS; he
have easily
.checked mineCeSsary expellee.
Ile ciinld not omit to notiee what the. Itsight Hon.
Gentleman bad•saiddn this head; Itle had hinted
that. the great-eXpende of the preparations 'On this
occasion was • according to the small Scair of our
palaces compared with those of other countries.
• This was to be taken as a 'very plea4ant kind of
hint by the Right Hon. Gentleman; of the neteS:=
sity of bye and bye coming forward zcitli a pro-
poal.fi>r a.new palace: As to the inconvenience
lately felt for.want of one, the fact was.,that- the
Rosjial. Visitors had been entertained. in slick
palaces as our Sovereigns liad, and it appeared that
with such as these, the Royal Visitors had been
quite satisfied. As.to anY'tiew palace in Contenipla-
tion; be Would give the Right lion. 6entleman
a hint not to be too. ready to give his assent
to any proposal which might be made to hint on
this subject ; for if he. did, he might be called to
account for it ,in no vsry pleasant way. The cx-
pences in the Lord Chapiberlain's department dur-
ing the last quarter, had been 112,000/.5 and of
thiS 82,0001. was. for furniture i—this .was coot-•
moos. • What was to become of all this furniture ?
It appeared to him the height of extravagande.7--
Within the last fifteen months 137,00.0/. bad
been expended On Carlton House,' besides • the
one hundred thousand pounds granted tat the
commencement of the Regency, by way of
,out-'64,-.-4-It was nQt possible. fur Parliament ,to-
shut their eyes to this. Ten thoUsand pounds was
charged for, the expences of journeying during the
stay of the Royal Visitors. . This appeared a very..
-large sum under such a head. In the Lord
Stewapl's Department there was,., dUring.the last.
quarter, an.excess of 45.,0001. for mere eating and
drinking, besides the, ordinary. expellee, for that
purpose. These called loudly for the attention of
the House: •

The'•CHANCELLOR• of the EKCEIEQUER,—If he
had at first erred in giving toO.Sumniary a state-
ment, the -Right Hon. Gentleman who had , just
spoken, had certainly obviated the effect of such
an error by the minuteness of his detail. The ex-
penees of the Political Departments voted in the
Civil List were under •the immediate direction of
the Treasury, and
,on those he could give any'ex-
platiatibn, or any minute statement, without feel-,
in g: any of that deliciley which was fit in entering
into the minutia of the household expellees of the.
-Sovereign. 'IV:: to tbe • expenees of the Foreign
Department, the Right 'Honourable Gentleman,
or any other,. might have any explanation that
could he wished for; or any more particalarstate
ment that itlight be required. Frbui•diderent cir-
cumstances, our Envoys_ in Spain an ,c 1 Portugal
lived at a very great. expellee. Thed,iffererkee of
,'thtehange was one great cause of- expence•under
this head, besides. other fortuitous. circumstances
connected with' the. pi ice of provisions and other
articles in these .countries. Of late, he was happy
to say, these expellees hail been very much dimi-
nithed ; and although drafts had .reeently.been
paid to our Ministers there, they had been drawn
when their ,expenses had been at the greatest
height. He had 00 reason to complain of want
of candour in' the Right 1-ion. Gentleman ; and
had be.en 'perfectly aware that, the expenees
,under different heads were of an amount that would
strike him. But the. Rt. Hon. Gent. ought to re-
niewber that these extraordinary expellees were up-
on an extraordinary occasion, and must be expects-
cd to J)6 proportionate to the greatness of the
cause of the approaching Carnival. ..4.1s to the ex-
pellees under the head of the Lord Chamberlain's
Department, the 22,0001. included the expenses
of the new rooms permanently added to Carl-
ton House. The Rotunda erected in Carlton
'Gaitdens were indeed very expensive, but it was
so constructed that it might be taken asunder
%in such a way as to be easily put up on •a future
occasion. On:the subject of the expenees of this
:and the other buildings -now in progress, he was
sorry that the estimates of M'r: Wyatt- had been
so loosely made up, but every one who knewthis
Gentleman professionally, lit public or private,
knew.how impossible it., %vas to get him bound
down to an exact statemat. He did apt speak
th-tis disrespectfully of thiis Gentleman; of whose
integrity and abilities, he, as well• as every one
who knew him, entertained the very highest
orinion. The Upholsterer's- bill amounted to
six 'thousand or seven thousand pontls, but
''this Auclncled the furnishing of the new addi-
tioual to Carlton House. Apart-
ments* had also been furnishedlor his Majesty 'the
King of France, with many temporary em-
bellishments, with which,- although. expansive, he
was sure there could not be any disposition -in the
Himse to find fault.—(Hear, hear !)—The ekrra-
Ordinary expellees under this head were '32,0001.
certainly a very large sum.
,Apartmentiliad been
fitted up Hot only for the King of ]'rilssia, but'
also for the Emperor of Russia, in case he might"
have been 'inclined to occupy Clem. Some expen-
sive preparations had also been made in\ expecta-
tion of the arrival of the Emperor of Anstria.—:
This also 'included the expellee of furnishing
. apartments (hiring the visit of the Sovereigns to.
Portsmouth: The furniture for the apartments in
London remained. in store ,to be appled to any.
future purpose; but that at -Portsmouth, by an
ancient custom, had been retained there. • In the
department of the Lord Steward ,the, expellees
had naturally been. great, because during the
stay. of the Royal Visitors, tables had been
laid in the Palace every day for 20Q persons. 'Be-
sides the expellees during the visit' to Portsmouth
were included under this head. Considering the
luagnitude of the scale under which it Wai neces-
sary to have things conducted, it was not possi-
ble that any more economical arrangement could
have been made. The expenees of travelling to
Portsmouth and other places, were included, under
the department of the Master of the Horse; and
these were as moderate as possible, as could very
easily be explained. He admitted the responsibi-
lity Of the Treasury for the whole of these ex-
pences ; but he repeated, that on thiS.OeCaiiol) it
was not possible to have that' minute attention paid
to the drawing up of the estimates and-accounts
that was to 'be expected at other times ; and if at
tbis'time they had relaxed a little, he was §ule
the House. would be of opinion, that it was on an
occasion when it was justiciable.--(Hear, hear'!),
ra reply to a question from I. TIERNEY, the

Trit

t t t.:•,
.0t the Exctlicaiirit stated; thgtf
iiirnitrei hat! Weed of stick ti deietipti(A ilia it
Wis not expected tliit the iipo)OlCerei•
take it back) as lie ebuld not fidlie io di:IPA
of it. .•

Lord arter a few words on the
subject of the inConie of the Prince Regent front
the, the. Civil List; said; that -ivith respect to this-
Ni-orks going on in the Parks; the rcspiinSibilify nt
themlikt(l- been expressly tal?.en fron the Lc ra.
hi!itr iToiti the dppo.si-
don.)

Mr. TitßNEir would male n 6 61.);ei•atioti oti
What had said by the Noble I..x.ird, except
ethigratidating the HOUse arid the Coniitry on the
way iri which thingS seemed to be tnanged
(Latig•hter,froni the 6pposition.)
• -Arr.. NV.utTitHEAD; aili'erting to the
Oar); disclaimer of the Noble Lniii on behalf Of
theL6rd Chdtriberlain, of any r'e.stionsfbility Nc to.
the workS lti the 'arks, asked tvhd was t(4 NIA/et.
that which hitherto n 6 one fieeincll to
acknowledge ? . .
The CHAlNtbEti'ott of the ExellEcitri laid; that'
the expellee of these iVotkS would lie defrayed by
'the Treasury. • .
Mr. WHiTtiitEAD.—Who gave the oider, thud
where was the primary Antbuiity?
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQU'En.--Ilie CS-
timates Of the works into the Trea-
stiry, and the authotity certainly rested With the
Treasth.y. , '
Mi% WnitititEM),---Wll6 gate the orders ?
(Loud cries-of Order t. Order !Y—Fie begged par-
don, but really after what had been saki by the
Noble Lord, it =would...he most extrafdrdinary if the
Right-V..lm. Gentled:an' refused to state Who gave
theordeis.

Lard CASTLEREAGH--ThiS vi-ds" not a case that
Admitted 6f any specific deterinination as to the
particular forms Under which the orders for con-
ducting the preparations Were to be issued. It
was a matter certainly rather moi'e iindv,rthe—cog:
nizance of the Lord,Chamberlain than the Tres:
sury. The clutylineuMbent oti "thos'e who had nn
concern in the managetnent was to keep within
the bounds prescribed by the .nature of the iicta-
sion, which' was sueb-as to make it quite impos.
sible-tosreduce the, ti.holereponsibility to: any Ono.
person. lie apprehended thatstich expences were-
perfectly sanctioned by the occasion,- withott its
being possible to draw them into any - Feculent.
Alt. T 1 EENEI'.-GOod G6d! did the Noble Lord
mean ttr say, that, there;waS ah absolution froti
all resputzsibility on this ciccasiau ? lie had tie_
design to Make any -attack on the Laird'Cliam--;
berlain, but he was more revonsible than he
seemed to thiuh, Whfit could thoSe works he of
which no estimate could made ?It Was :Ab-
surd to gay that no estiMate, conk! be, mtidetof
,
them.

LOlll, CASTLEREAGII„-r-lt might jniit as' well be..
said, that his Majesty's MiAisters were to be re-.
sponsible‘for all the'expences and preparations
a Ike as l'or those now. in question.
.Tbere tvere
some eNpences which Caine liid direction„
of the Sovereign hiniself without.the interferente
of Ministers., by their advice and rcsponsibil:
It would be pushing a salutary rule to arniost
surd extent to apply it to such a case. lit 4 did
uut.by any .means .object to _th,..inittciple
but to, its application in this instnnee.
Mr. TIERNTY.-----Would the Noble Lord say that
nor estimates could have been made out, of c:1-,
penceS, on so, large a sealu.? If they could, he
Would say it was amt :.criminal nin to produce
them. .

• Mt% Wvtl'NE thought the principle. of the Noble
Lord on this matter most dangerous. - It would
not have caused any delay in this case if matters
had been conducted in the regular mode, by the
Sovereign signifying his pleasure to the Lord
•Chaniberlain. What return had the people ior
the large salary paid to such officers as the Lord
Charunerl.in, if it was not their respOn ;ibility in
such cases ?

'Mr. WHITBREAD had one other. question to•ask.
Who was the person who communicated with the
Treasury on the subject ?

The CHAN'CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
doubt that a Surveyor of Works was appointed on
this• occasion. There were officers appointed for
this purpose under the Lord Lord Chamberlain,
and it was probably from some of these that the
,communications were made.

Mr. W. SMITH said, that he believed the publie
would object to great sums of money being frit-
tered away in such a manner. -
Lord CASTLEREAGH.-Even if we had not had
the satisfaction of a visit from the illustrious So=
vereigns Who lately left this country, the, public
would expect. some celebration of so great an
event as the conclusion of peace. For his own
part he knew no tray in which an impression of
the greatnessbf the event could be signified except
by some such festival -as that in preparation. And
if there, was any disposition • to moralise on ale
conduct of Government in this respect, it certainly
could be for too great attention to economy. lie
entreated the Honourable Gentlemen opposite
not to . -be so very severe on the subject, inerelv•
because. they t'aneied they had found bone flaw
in the management. Did they imagine that it -
werepOssible to reduce all the preparations.: for such
a purpose to estimates ?—lt was impossible. As
to the comments on the naval part of tl.learrantre='
nient, he confessed that, at first, he had not beca.
able exactly to see the merit of this branch. But
when he had 'gone into the Park and, saw the
41illewed a popnlation
o t?tat was pleasing and beautiful, he
hlaetsll sb dec oectf.nr all
oit%nhv thinke h(enenr, most t (1) r
e
hear
aiul
laughter.)
Ater a r.)
to
few words from Mr. WYNNE and Mr,
P. MoottE, amidst loud cries of Question, the
first
Resolution -was put and carried:
01. °Cu
‘oriolo wasistfor h t.; ps
114' e for the extraordinary experice§
heL.9OOO for the Royal Military Canal. •
L. 3000 for the Board of Agriculture.
L. 10,000 for paying Bills due to workmen, for repairing
both Houses of Parliament. ,

On the question for this vote,
Mr. Serjeant ONsiow called the attention of
the Committee to the salary of the Speaker, which
had not been increased for 22 years, as was, he'
cOnceivedA inadequate to his office. He hoped it
Would be considered and augmented.

The House then resumeCl, and the Report of

the Committee was ortie: ed to be received to•
IDOUVO'N.

lIIISTI SEDITiOLTS MEETINGS.

The Lionsellavinc resolved itself into a Com-
mittee on,the Irish Seditious Meeting Bill,
Sir 11. PAktNeLt. so far agreed that some Legis-
lative proceeding wa4 necessary on account of ,the
situation of Ireland; but as to this individual
he could not agree to any part of it, except tine
mere preamble, and should more as an Amend-
ment, tleit the words' " without the isulterventitin
of the Grand or Petit jary" be left ont or the
Bill.

PEELE said,-the Bill was in all respects a
ilterai transcript of that of.lBo/, an:i those clauses
to which the Hon. Baronet 19ected,‘t'oemed part
of it. The• Right Honourable Gentleman enter-
ed upon a vindication of the Ora'age Societies from
the taijost aspersions which had been east upon
them ; he stated, that they had existed fur more
that twenty
.years ; that • they bad been grossly
calumniated by the clisaflected, who brad dated to
represent their %iews to be nothing. less than to
destroy the CathOlies, burn their chapels,•an4l
ex-
terniir ate their .sreligion. But so, far from these
Societies being-liable to the imputations Cast upon
the in, it was but justice_to declare that their only
fault was an exttberancu of ioya!ty. Their oath
only bound theta to support, by lawful means, the
Protestant ascendancy, atid the Government of
Alajesty Gccr,ee the ihitd, and never to join with,
tttited risinnen. Adverting to the reiilarks: /of
the Hon. Baronet respecting the yiot at Castle-
town, that Right Hon, Gentleman juAtified the
calling, out,of the Militia, aiol read the verdict of
the CoroneCs! Inquest, which stated, that the
person who was killed had met his death by a
ramdom shot, from ' soldiers who were'obliged to
tire in their own defence. •

Sir H. PAR,NELL replied.
floßxEa contended, -that, the• Hot at Cas-
ttrtoii.o was i stili.ject that called thost earnestly
for Parliamentary inquiry,:
Mr. BATHURST, *Mr. MACNNGDTEN, and Mr.
FITZGERALD, defended the on the ground
of its expediency
Mr. WYNNE supported the Amendment ; and
after a-few additional remarks .from Mr. PF.ELE,
who stated that, the atrocious nuirders of Avitnesses
were committed by hired assassins, the house di-
vided, whet there were— •
For the Amendtbent 6—Against it 66.

Ordered to he reported to-morrow.
The other Orders of the Day being d;sposed of,
the House adjonrned at Half-past One o'Clock.