The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-23 00:00:00

tore of the Constitution. He objected, however, not to
Reform generally, but to the Bill of his Majesty's Minis-
ters; and he objected to the-Bill for many reasons, with,
which he would not trouble the House, as they had been,
already stated, and especially, because it would have a most
mischievous effect-in Ireland,- which he complained had kern •
treated with as little respect 'as the borough of Evesham.
The diisolution -with which they were threatened had no
tenors for him. The-visit to those who had sent them
there must come sooner or later, and whether it was to-
morrow (which he did not believe)--(Hear, hear)—or a
more distant day, made little difference--whether it came
within a month, or not within a year, mattered little, for
their conduct, while they Satin that House, was always
before their constituents.
Mr. SHAW said he should have been ready to give his
support to any measure of a gradual Reform, but not to
this, which he confessed, seemed to him to have been aptly
designated as somewhat revolutionary. It struck at the
root of vested rights and chartered liberties, which, at all
times and under all circumstances, had been held sacred ;
which had been respected for centuries as part of the Bri-
tish Constitution itself. The disfranchisement of the non.
resident 40s. freeholders was as dust in the balance, com-
pared to the power given to the lower classes by the Bill.
—(Question.) That power would be shown at any fu-
ture election; and the influence of the lion. and Learned
Member for Waterford would he materially increased, by
this measure. That influence which he now used to pro-
mote the repeal of the Union weelil be then strengthened,
and strengthened, too, for a purpose to which the present
Government professed themselves opposed. The conse-
quence of increasing that influence would he justly attri-
butable to that very Government which must be answer-
able for its effects. —(Hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL and several other
Members rose at once ; and, after sonic little confusion,
, the Hon. and Learned Member, having obtained a pre-
ference, said that he was extremely anxious to make some
few observations on the Bill in its present stage. He had
been prevented from doing so in an early part of the even-
ing by the absence of his Hon. and Learned Friend who
had made so able and ingenious a speech last evening, and
to whom he wished to offer some few observation, in reply.
Fe regretted that his Hon. and Learned Friend was still
absent, but he felt that it was his duty to lose no more
time in offering. his opinions to the House. He was
happy to be able to do so at this moment, for it might be
great vanity, or it might be the extreme partiality he felt
to the task he had undertaken, but he had some expecta-
tion of being able to convert an opponent into a friend.
The Hon. and Gallant Admiral, the Member for Notting-
hamshire, whom he believed be might call his Hon.
Friend, having heard this question debated for seven
nights in the former stage of this Bill, and having then
made up his mind as to the vote he should give, had been
since entirely•convinced of the impropriety of his fist opi-
nion, and now intended to vote the other way. That Hon.
and Gallant Admiral, bad now withdrawn from the pre-
sence of the House.—(No, no, and loud cheers.)—He
begged pardon—he meant, as his Hon. Friend knew, no
disrespect, for he could only speak of and to that Hon.
and Gallant Admiral with respect, and he was happy to
see the Gallant Admiral now present ; for, as the Gal-
lant Admiral had expressed a doubt whether the opi-
nion he had stated at an earlier period of the debate
was correct, it was to be hoped, that after that frank
and manly avowal of a supposed error, he might, on
a careful re-consideration of the matter, be induced to
believe that the new impression he had adopted was
erroneous.—(Hear, no.)—He was sure that it was
impossible for any gentleman to treat with more jus-
tice the sentiments of his constituents than did the Hon.
and Gallant Admiral ; for he had stated with regard to
this most important measure, that a great county meeting
had been held in the county he represented, and that al:
most every respectable gentleman in the county was pre-
sent at it, and that the resolutions adopted at the meeting.
were unanimously in favour of this measure. The Hon.
and Gallant Admiral had not stated that that unanimity
had been produced by intimidation or violence of conduct;
on the contrary, he had mfeclered that every man freely ut-
tered his sentiments, as freely as in that other county meet-
ing in Berkshire, where an Hon. Gentleman stood alone
declaring his oppositien to this measure, and was kindly
and cordially received in a way due to his character upon
all occasions, and especially to the manly candour with
which he stated his difference from his constituents. That
single dissentient was llstened to with that respect which
his character, and that confidence which his principles and
his manliness of conduct naturally inspired. If such was
the feeling of the enlightened persons who assembled at this
county meeting, and if there and in every assembly, ex-
cept that which he bad the honour of addressing—(No,
no!)—there was an unanimous sentiment in favour of this
measure—(No, nu !)—if, in -every one of these instances,
without intimidation and without violence, but after a
calm, a full, and a deli'-crate discussion, these respectable
gentlemen found themselves in a minority against the
voters, there must be something in that Bill, or in the na-
ture of society, of a most whensieml and unintelligible kind,
which showed the people to be mistaken upon the point
of their own interests, and the judgment of Members of
that House to be infallible in a case in which it was im-
possible they could be strictly impartial or unbiassed.
(Hear, and no, no !) He put it to every gentleman—to
those who were affected by this measure, immediately, or
by its remote effete, calmly to take the circumstances he
had just mentioned into their consideration, and to ask
themselves whether there was not that in the peculiar na-
ture of their situation which created the tumult of °pp°.
sition in that House to a "measure so universally approved
of by the great body of the people of the country.—(Hear,
hear.) He asked them, too, whether it was not likely
that, on such a eubject, the people of England were more
correct in their ideas than the Hon. Members who op-
posed the tneasure; and whether, at least, the people were
not unbiassed by particular interests, and influenced only
by a wish to see the country prosperous
.and well go-
verned.—(Cheers.) The speech of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite had been one which proceeded on the
principle of imputation. The Hon. and Learned Gentle.
man seemed to think that he had found the key to the in-
troduction of that measure in the interests of the Ministry,
and that he had nothing to do but to repeat, in support of
his supposed discovery, the assertion that there was a
strange coincidence—a remarkable state of things, that
conspired, with time interests of the Ministers. In this
manner he seemed to think that be could solve the diffi-
culty of the introduction of this measure. , He was mis-
taken in all this. The n aural and simple cause of the
introduction of the Bill was the necessity which the mini
versa) wish of the people imposed upon the Government.
Ile (the Attorney-General) might be permitted to bear
testimony to a fact of some importance, to which the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had alluded when he stated his
supposition that some alteration had been made in the fa-
brication of this Bill. He knew not in what way the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had supposed that, with wrong
mind and 'doubtful policy, the Government had been
induced to make these alterations, or what was the
motive fer them ; but he was able to state positively
that for five weeks, at least, ho had hid the instruc-
tions to draw this Bill in his hands—and, on his
honour, he could declare that no alterations had been
made, not even-in .the most minute details, except in par-
ticulars not of time lest cimsequence to' the Bill, and not
such, indeed, as to le eve. him any recollection of their nit-
tuns The instructions he then received were precise,-
and those he put into the form of the Bill as it now stood,
as he was desired to do, and this fact at once got rid of
what had been said about about the alterations that had
taken place, after it had been submitted to, and had re
ceived the sanction of, the Cabinet. " Olt (said his Hon.
and Learned Friend), it is impossible to conceive anything
so extremely irregular—so unprecedented—so improper—
so inadmissible, as that advice should be given that no
alteration should be proposed, lest the safety of the Bill
should be endangered." However inadmissible or irregu-
lar that course might be, it certainly was not unprece-
dented. because only two years ago it had been taken by the
Right Hon. Baronet and his friends upon that great mea-
sure—second only in importance to the present—the Ca •
tho!ic Relief Bill. A tilt eting of the supporters of the
plan had taken place, and there it had been given out
that the fate of the Bill would be risked by any attempt
to alter its provisions. He (the Attorney-General) did
not mean to speak positively and decisively upon this
point, but he knew that such had been stated to be the
fact in societies where he was in the habit of convereing.
For his Hon and Learred Friend to bring this charge
forward, and to attempt to make it a successful hit, as an
imputation against Ministers, was indeed to have great
confidence in the willingness of his audience to be eatis.
fied•—(Hear.) Having so far succeeded, perhaps beyond
his hopes, his Hen. and Learned Friend ventured a step
farther, and asserted that the present Bill was introduced
fur the purpose of keeping Ministers in power. It was
asserted that they were the persons who had raised the
storm, which could only be allayed by the mighty influence
of this measure, and that without it the present servants
of the Crown must inevitably quit their places. He (the
Attorney- General) would appeal to any man who gave
himself the trouble of thinking (a trouble which some
that were loudest last night in the applause of his Hen.
and Learned Friend were ahvays anxious Nevoid), whether
such was or could be the fact ? Did Ministers raise the
storm ? Were they the authors of the agitation? When
did it commence? Last year? Certainly not. Was not
the cry for Reform raised after the melancholy results of

the American war ; and could it be pretentled even by
those who had applauded. the speech of his Hon. and
Learned Friend,' that Lord -ChithAtia in his demand for it
was playing. into the hands of, -the Government 'of 'ISM'?
-That illustrious Peer was thoroughly and painfully .con-
vinced of the evil consequences- of the influence of the
other House of Parliament among the Commons, and
the same conviction had been-- the very foundation of
the fame of his son. • His declared sentiments upon this
subject had enabled him to step into power, supported by
the confidence of the people, which confidence he after-
wards
employed to destroy the influence which his Noble
Father had denounced. The awful events of the French re-
volution had afterwards induced him to pause in his career,
although, in the prophetic words of Mr. Fox, that event was
in itself a proof of the necessity of the change he had pre-
vinusly contemplated. In 1793, the Noble Lord at the head ~f
the Government bad brought fOrward the question, and had
diaided with only about forty Members in his favour. Was
the object then to keep Alinisters in their piece., or could
that have been the purpose of the same Noble Earl in I
1797? He only mentioned these facts to show that the important principle had long been acknowledged, and I
generally felt, as any man would willingly admit at a time .
when his feelings were not excited, or his interests en.
e„geeel It could not be denied, that for many years a I
trong case, not for inquiry, but for redress, had existed.
The con option of the Ilotise of Commons was a matter of
imeariety, and the people of England had taken it up, and
called for a Reform in a voice as fur flour entreaty on the
one hand as it was from' intimidation on the other. Any
man who could view the subject calmly, with the temper
and moderation that became so great a question, must feel
at once that Ministers could have had no sordid or selfish
object in bringing for Ward this Bill. They had acted from
an honest conviction of necessity, because they saw that
a remedy was waisted, and because the people claimed that
a remedy should be applied. Surely it would not be
denied, that Ministers were right in making their remedy
efficient ; for unl. ss it were efficient, it could not be per.
menent and final.—(Hear, bear.) • If what was considered
by some a moderate or qualified Reform had been brought
forward by them, the effect might be to silence the public
voice for the year 1831, but another plan would be ne-
cessary in 1832, and so on from year to year, keeping the
country in a feverish state of suspense and speculation—.a
state of things of all things to be avoided..—(hear.) An
attempt has been made to throw discredit on the Bill,
by asserting that it was the result of comproMise; but bow
was it possible to bring forward a great measure of the
kind without its being necessary that individuals should
make some sacrifices for the sake of unanimity ? Who
bed a right, on a m otter of this sort,' to arrogate to him-
self the epithet of infallible ? It had been suggested on
the other side, last nielat, he believed for the first time,
that some degree of Reform was necessary. No hint of
the kind had been given during the former debate of seven
nights' duration ; but now, forsooth, the Bil! before the
House was to be brought into disrepute by Honourable
Members, who came forward with the statement that they
too had their measures of Reform, though more moderate
and more satisfactory, and by which the interests of the
public would he duly guarded. If the Right Honoarable
Baronet and his friends were, indeed, friendly to the
principles of Reform, they would hardly refuse to give
this Bill a fair and impartial consideration in the Com-
mittee. But when these Hon. M. tubers talked of moderate
Reform, he (the Attorney General) wished to know what
was me int by the words ? Did they mean that the nomina-
tion boroughs were only to be half disfranchised—that they
should in future return sine Member instead of two? The non.
Baronet, the Member for Londonderry, said that lie did
not wish to preserve those boroughs, while the Noble Mem-
ber for Dewnshire, who professed himself a very stringent
reformer, extremely de•irous of going a considerable length,
hid asses ted that there was great peril in even commenc-
ing a chance. In spite of that peril, however, he thought
that the danger of doing nothing ought not to fie neglected.
It thus became a practical question of degree, and if so,
why ought not the Bill upon the table to he allowed to go
into the Committee, in order that the various views of
enlightened men might be collected, and a measure con-
centrated from those views? His Hon. and Learned
Friend had observed upon the curious coincidence that
eixty. two boroughs were to be disfranchised, and the Mem-
bers of the House diminished to the extent of sixty-two
Members; and he bed followed it up with the suggestion
that Ministers meant, in the end, to give back sixty-two
Members to the totally disfranchised boroughs. He (the
Attorney-General) hoped that the character of those who
introduced the Bill would be a security against any such
suspicion—such trilling with an important question.
Ii
it were true, it could hardly be supposed that Ministers
would forego the support they might obtain by the avowal
of such an intention. Was such the moderate and seise,
fitetory Reform projected by the opponents of this Bill ?
In the course of his speech against this selfish Bill, his
Hon. and Learned Ft iend had attacked various of its pro-
visions ; but surely neither lie nor any other Hon. Mem-
ber would deny that the diminution of the expense of
elections, and the total prevention of bribery, were impor-
tant public benefits. The measure was a Lona fide attempt
by shortening the duration of polls, and by abolishing
out-voters, to accomplish their object. It was another
great gain to get rid of the variety of rights of
voting which put an end to protraction and litigation,
and enabled individuals; to become candidates who would
not otherwise have risked their expenses. (The Attorney_
General here went over other provisions of the Bill, in
answer to what had been said by Sir E. B. Sugden, con-
tending that the exceptions taken were not well founded,)
It had been asserted by his Hon. and Learned Friend, that
the regulations for Members for the three Ridings of York-
shire were those of Cromwell. If so, he (the Attorney-
General) contended that the plan was that of one of the
most sensible men that ever lived—a great Reformer, and
above all, a great Reformer of Chancery—the best Re

Former of Chancery from that time to the present.—
;Hear, hear, and laughter.) This was only an attempt to
create an unjust prejudice, but it was too late to frighten
the country by calling names. If it were true that one
Riding had a population of 700,000—more than the other
two Ridings united—his answer to the objection was, that
I Ministers did not pretend by tlis Bill to equalise counties.
The difficulty of drawing an Act of Parliament to effect
Reform of any kind, must he well known to his Hon. and
Learned Friend, and could certainly not be denied by ano
they Hon. and Learned Friend he saw opposite (Sir James
Scarlett), who, although joined a year or two ago with the
then Soliciter-General and the Secretary for the Horne
Department for that purpose,; had produced a measure so
defective, although passed into a law, that various others
had subsequently been necessary to amend it. The objec-
tion urged to the powers given to the Privy Council was
powerless, unless the House agreed ha the sort of imputa-
tion it implied. Unquestionanly those powers were large,
but he would appeal to any man, whether a better method
of meeting the existing evil could be devised? The prin-
ciple of so employing a Committee of individuals of the
higest, rank and ci,aracter was not new, hut, after all,
it might not be necessary. The King, by his undoubted
prerogative, might cease to send writs to any place ; and
what sort of vested right would then exist in such
places as Old Sarum or Gatton ? What would it be
worth in such a case, although the proprietor might
have given 40,0001. for it ? The King might take away
what he had granted.--(.No, no, hear, hear.)—He re-
peated that the King, of his prerogative, might take away
from any place the right of sending Members to Parlia-
ment.—(No, no. )—lt might be said that the Act of Union
with Scotland prevented it ; it settled the number of the
House of Commons, but it did not . specify to what places
the King's writs should be sent. He did not say the King
could deprive Corporations of their charters, but he could
deprive boroughs of their franchise.--(Hear, hear.)—The
interposition of the Privy Council, therefore, was only a
new check for the more secure accomplishment of what
was fit and just to be done. His Hon. and Learned
Friend no doubt a'so fancied that he had made a success-
ful hit'on the point of the rent of houses conferring the
right to vote. Poor rates formed an uncertain criterion,
but they might come in aid ; the hoped-for repeal of the
Inhabited House Duty (with the rest of the Assessed
Taxes) would deprive the proper officers of another means
of judging, but the production of a receipt of the pay-
ment of rent, where there was no reason to suspect collu-
sion between the landlord and tenant, would afford evi-
dence to establish or disprove the right of voting. It
ought to be reco leated also that that right would be set-
tled, not during the heat and animosity of a contested
election, but long before it occurred, and when there could
be no ground for charging partiality. This proof of pay-
ment of rent before a man was entitled to vote, was what
his Hon. and Learned Friend had called a boon to the
landlord, and the observation bad been received with much
approbation. Sometimes a little wit went a great way,
and nowhere farther than when an auditory was pre-dis-
posed to be pleased. It was the same with argument ad-
dressed to those who were most willing to he convinced.
The register in counties was to be made by a barrister
duly qualified, and he rtriceel to add, that none of the
forty-shiliing freeholders would be disfranchised ; thus
the lower orders would have a new motive, by pru-
dence and industry, to become owners of tree
soil, and part of a numerous and most valuable
constituency. To the freeholders, by the Bill, copy_
holders and leaseholders were in future to be added ; and
here be could not but-recur to the frightful word revo-
lutionary," introduced by various Hon. Members into the
discussion ; they denounced the measure as revolutionary

and destructive 'of all the ancient establishments of the
country. It was some .satisfaction to have obtained St
legal definition of the meaning of the term "revolution-
ary," for an Hon. and Learned Member, after having in-
voked the shade of Blackstone to show what would re-
move the foundation, or at least the superstructure of the
Constitution. concluded that that dreadful calamity would
be produced by the admission of copyholdeas and lease-
holders to the right of voting. —(Hear, hear. )—This fact
showed the value of some of the big words imported into
this debate, which could frighten those only who were too
prone to be alarmed. The fact was that in the reign of
William 111., the word " Revolution" was used to signify
a restoration of rights and liberties, and he (the Attorney-
General) knew no reason why the same meaning should
not be assigned to it in the reign of William IV. Crom-
well might be employed as a hughear, and Jacohinical and
Revolutionary applied as nicknames to the present plan of
Reform ; but the country would not he deceived by such
artifices, and the time was gone by, when ignorance could
lie imposed upon by the jargon of party. He apprehended
that he had now gone through, and answered, most of the
points urge d by his lion. and Learned Friend.—(A Mem-
ber across the table observed that the right Hon. Gentle.
man bad said nothing of the Preston voters.)—lf Preston
were especially injured by the measure, he should he very
sorry for it, and he was ready to g:ve a full consideration
to its peculiar claims, if any such could be advanced. The
principle of the Bill was not disfranchisement..-e.(fiear,
hear, re-echoed from the opposite benches.)—Tha prin.
ciple of the Bill was not disfranchisement.—(Cheeri, and
repeated cries of " No, no.")-e-Its object was m
rain es much as possible all existing rights--(Cheers, and
great confusion)—as much of them as was consistent
with a real and , effectual Reform of tie representa-
tion of the people in this House.—(Much cheering.)__
He did not think that any plan could he proposed which
would give the people a more real and effectual repree
sestation than that which the Bill before the House would
effect. If he might be allowed to refer to what had been
said on a former night by a Noble Lord, who thought that
a publication ought to be prosecuted, in which the Members
olthat Rouse were spoken of with disrespect, he tisaught it
his duty to say that he did not think the assertions com-
plained of to be false—(Hear, hear).--nor did he think,
that if the libel were sent to a Jury, the defendant could
be found gUilty.—(Hear, hear.)—At the same time, it
was not to be supposed that be looked upon Honourable
Members as hired lacqueys; but he thought that nothing
could send Members to that House with greater credit
than the system of representation contemplated by the
Bill upon the table. For, when gentlemen were now
sent there, they seemed to come with the conviction that
it was a duty, from which they ought not to be inaueed to
depart, to support the particular views of those who hail
nominated them. But he believed, that if they would go
into their chambers and dispassionately consider the effects
of the Bill, they would come to the conclusion, that by
no other mode could they enter that House more free than
by that which the Bill proposed. Selfish and mercenary
motives had been imputed to men of rank and distinction
who supported the present measure. But he would ask,
could his Hon. and Venerable Friend, the Member for
Norfolk, who bad advocated the cause of Reform through
good report, and through evil report ; could the Honour-
Member for Northumberland, and the Hon. Member for
Berkshire, who, through all scenes and changes had sup
ported it, now be charged with want of sincerity for their
adherence to the same principle ? But the Hon. Member for
Corfe Castle hail asked, did the Lords Essex and Northum-
berland, and the other men of high rank and station who
supported the long Parliament, know to what result their
measures:would u!timate'y lead? If any argument could be
drawn from that example, the Hon. Member for Corn-
wall might as well he compared to the artisans of the
Long Parliament. He might be called the Essex or the
Northumberland of the day. If the progress of Reform
were to terminate in destruction, it was that Hon. Mein.
her with whom it should begin ; for he, and the Hon.
Member for Corfe Castle, both admitted that the waters
must flow upon us, and the only question was, who
should turn the key ? Yet he (ihe Attorney-General)
would ask, was there any analogy between the present
times and that period, when the usurpations of Charles
the. First and, of his Star Chamber incurred the utmost
hatred of the people.—(Hear, he heard
gentlemen ask, was the present the time for Reform ?
he must ask in return. when could there be a time more
seasonable than this, when peace prevailed, when trade
was flourishing—(Cheers)—when the currency was in a
secure anal wholesome state, anal when everaehing was
going on as it ought—(Cheering)—With an exception.
(Cheers and laughter.) —Gentlemen might laugh if they
pleased,--Lhe meant the base and demoralizing influence
which was-exercised over the rep-resentaiives of the people.
(Cheers.)—fetill, when the corruption and perjury of
such places as East Retf ad and Grimsby, anal a hundred
others were exposed before the Howe, gentlemen of drip
moral and religious feeling came forward to object, and
that too on mood principle, to all Reform.—(Cheers, and
vehement cries of No, no, no.")—lf not, then, how
happened it, that in a debate of seven nights they had
not been able to find a Reform to which they would con
sent? The opposition which they have presented to the
measure before the House seemed to him a rejection of
the principle. After seven days' debate, they had not
offered any plan to be substituted for that in favour of
which the public voice had been loudly and unequivocally
raised. Indeed they called that measure a corporation
robbery ; but the corporations themselveS came forward
and laughter.)—lt was said to be like the quo warrant°
eagerly, and begged that they might he robbed.—(Cheers
case against the City of London ; but the Corporation
of London came unhesitatingly to pray that their pri-
vileges might not be allowed to stand in the way of their
country's good,—(Cheers had been said that the
people had nut had opportunities of fairly expressing their
sentiments; but he would say that there never had been
a case in which the public voice had been more clearly
raised. The people had declared themselves grateful for the
measure. There had not been a single exception. The
gentlemen opposite, who so often alluded to the measure,
which had been carried, as they said, in opposition to the
petitions of the people, did not seem to act consistently,
when they now opposed a measure, in favour of
which the people had poured innumerable petitions upon
the table of the House. For his part, he would
abstain from using any argument which could be called
intimidation. As he would not allow such an influence
to be exercised upon himself, he would not attempt to
exert it over others. When it had been said that the op-
ponents of the Bill would not dare to face their consti-
tuents, it could never have been supposed to be intimated
that they ran any risk of being pelted—(Hear, bear, and
laughter)—but only that the course of Reform was making
such way throughout the country, anti that amongst the
most intelligent part of the people; and be woeid observe,
that that part extended very far in the lowest class—
(Hear, hear)—that the gentlemen who opposed the Bill
could not expect afterwards the support of their consti-
tuents. He did not think that was intimidation, but a
fair and rational statement of the case.—(Hear, hear.)—
But if it were supposed that any half measure would allay
the discontent whirls was growing up in all classes, and
which, as the experience of all mankind teaches, must; if
not allayed in time, lead to unhappy results, in his rem.
science, he believed, that by removing the evils, which the
present Bill proposed to remove, an I thereby adapting our
institutions to the spirit of the times—he would not say
perpetuity would be given to time Constitution, as that
could hardly be hoped for in human institutions—but its
greatest stability and permanence would be secured, in a
better state of the representation, and with a purer mode
of election.—(Cheers, and cries of question.)
Sir J. SCARLETT said, that in the impatience which
the House manifested, he would not at that late hour of
the night protract their debere, but that he thought it his
duty to express his sentiments upon a question of so great
importance. From the first time that lie had the honenr
of a seat in that House, he thought Reform necessary, and
he still held that opinion. But although he was desirous
to make such alterations as would give the people an ade-
quate representation—(Hear, hear.)—he was not bound
to support that measure, which went beyond anything
that could be consented to by those who desired to pre-
serve our institutions. He had wished that the question
should have been debated free from personal or party feel-
ings, and he had heard with regret so mach of bath ma-
nifested during the debate.—(Cries of "Oh, oh, oh !" anal
order, order.) For hiS part he had nothing to gain and
nothing to save by the rejection of the Bill.—(Hear.)
It would neither give him a seat nor preserve it for limn.
—( Hear, hear.) But he thought that if the House, as
heretofore constituted, had done so much good, and still
proved itself capable of so much good, it would not be
debt to part with it for an experiment. The measure
before the House was not an amendment, but a recon-
struction—(Cheers)—and that on principles unknown to
the Constitution. He had no doubt that the Ministers
who brought forward that measure, were of opinion that
this re-construceion of the House was safe for the Consti-
tution, and for the preservation of property. He would
illow them to think so, but he would claim ;cave to ex-
sufficient excuse for his not going the same length with
ex-
ercise his own jedgmest, and he thought his doubts a
them, They assert that the question really at issue was,
whether the House would consent to Reform deny kind, oi
not. He did not think that Reform was the principle of the
Bill. If it were so, a Bill might as well be proposed to reduce
the number of that House one-half, or to give to all it.

Members seats in the House of Lords ; and that all who,
opPOsed such 4, Bill were against all Reform. For'the
principle of the Bill he would refer to its details.—(Heir. )
—At that period of the debate he would only occupy the
House by the bare statement of his opinions, without going
into any lengthened arguments up them. Hon. Gen-
tlemen seemed to assert that the people had a constitu-
tional right to that specific Reform, which, although still
a theoretical repreSentatien, they considered effectual. But
he would ask them in what part of the Constitution, in
what law or usage, was that right established ? The re-
presentation of the people in Parliament was founded upon
three thine,s—upon usages, upon Acts of _Parliament,
and upon Charters granted by the King. Bet the Bill
was founded upon none of them. The authors of that
Bill had referred to no usages, and had been governed by
no existing law in framing its provisions.—( Hear, hear.)
His Friend, with thst perspicuity which marked every-
thing which fell from him in that House, had quoted the
statute of Edward the Third, in which the ParbaMent
was stated to be composed of the Barons and Commonalty
of the realm. But the word 'Commonalty was not used there
in the sense in which his Friend bad interpreted it. In
the Oxford provision (as his F.'riernl would find), the twelve
Representatives of the Commona* were appointed by the
King, and were, in fact, themselves Barons.—(Clear.)-_.
Yet they constituted what his Friend referred to as the
Commonalty.—(Cheers.)—Those persons were to meet
three times, to treat with the King's Council on behallof
all the Commonalty of England , and the King having
"Worn to observe the articles of that celebrated provision,
.having repeatedly violated his oath, again and again obtained
abiolution.—(Llughter.)—All theories for reforming the
House of Commons, not founded upon the history of Par-
liament, ought to he looked upon with contempt. In any
chanera; of the Constitution, the House should he guided only
by expediency and experience. Upon what gicund of ex-
pediency was it that the present Bill cut off sixty Mem-
bers fiom that branch of representation in which alone
cemmercial interests could find their way into the amuse.
(Cheers.) The three great sources from which that House
was formed were the commercial, the mantificturing, and
the moneyed interest. No doubt the represeutatioa of the
land was a matter of great importance, but it was alreedy
fully represented in the House -of Peers. The change
which took place in that House from the discovery of
America, could not have escaped the attention of any Hon.
Member who took the trouble to refer to our history with
any view of estimating time value of the proposed me isure
of ReforM. From that time the House of Commons as-
sumed an importance unknown to former times; hence
he was justified in affirming Rest commerce, manufactures,
and the accumulation of capital, were the great sources of
the greatness and freedom of this country. Were they
then prepared to cut off sixty-two Members from that in-
terest, and impart to the landed interest a preponderance
unjust and inexpedient—a preponderance clearly forming
an addition to the power already enjoyed by that interest
in the House of Lords. The Bill added fifty-five to the
county Members. It went to take away sixty Members
from the general representation of the Commons of Eng-
land, and gave fifty-five to the agricultural representation.
Instead of ninety-two county representatives, there were
to be one hundred and forty-seven, and sixty-two were to
he taken away from the other interests of the community
—again, he would repeat, that that gave a great and un-
due preponderance to the landed interest. It had been the
practice of all Governments to make large professions
about public credit, hut lie must he allowed to say that never
did any Bill come under his consideration more calculated to
injure public credit. Assuming that the Bill was sound
in theory, he doubted whether in its practical operations it
could be made to realise the expectations of its
framers. He was not, from all this, to be considered
as one of the undistinguishing opposers of the mea-
sure; on the contrary, there were tome parts of it which
had his full approbation. He was enabled to give his unqua-
lified support and approbation to that part of the Bill which
would give representatives to the large twns. On that
subject he had before expressed a decided opinion, and that
opinion remained unchanged. In the earlier period of
our history it was the practice of the Crown to confer the
elective franchise upon all places sufficiently populous,
wealthy, or intelligent to entitle it to such a privilege and
advantage; and were it not for the jealausy to which the
untons with Scotland and Ireland gave rise respecting the
increase of English Members, the Crown would probably
have long since conferred upon the great towns in this
country- that right of election which it was the object of
the present Bill to confer. It was admitted by the framers
of the Bill that the Crown did pessess the power to do all
that was needful in such a case; then why the present
Bill? Ti:ere even was a time when tnany places eonsi-
deed the right of representation a burden, and when they
prayed to be relieved from it ; and no doubt the places
which were then deprived of it by the power of the Crown
may have the privilege restored to them by the same au-
thority. He should then proceed to consider more in de-
tail the provisions of the Bid. It provided that where
the electors in a borough did not exceed 300—that is, 300
101. householders, the Privy Council should hove the right
of determining, from which portion of the adjoining
districts additional electors should be taken. In the whole
history of legislation had there ever been such a pi inciple
of legislation adopted? Was the House so reduced as that
it must have recourse to the Privy Council to provide for
its regulation, and to determine who the constituents were
to be who were to send representatives into that House?
theThived, the Hou
ssteatet.f
Commons oantnoc;the present measure
ai:saittmo d
Whatever
was
he
er mights
nrapi not
s
ly ibemert
his ieeocl
jg:eafctite;eot
thosenocs w
ho denied that the
Legislature had the power and the right to determine the
question es they might see expedient ; but in determining
what was expedient, their first duty was oi have regard to
what was just. Let the House only look at the Bill ;it
went to disfranchise sixty boroughs, and it proceeded in
this upon no system or principle—if there were any of the
principles in the measure by which our former Legis-
lation had been distinguished. lie maintained that it it
hid been governed by arty such principles, it would rather
hive added to the constituency of the country rather than
have diminished it. The only principle upon which it
seemed to proceed was one perfectly appl cable to existing
places. It went upon the principle of population, and
took the census of 1821 ; but why that census.? It took
as a rule, a population of 2,000 for one Member, and
4,000 for two. If apl ice in the year 1821 had but
1,600 persons within its boundaries, it was to have no
Member, though its population from that time to this
might have been increased fir b yond 2,000. If ale.),
another place had a population in 1821 of 1,010, it was
, to return two M. tubers, though it might within the period
he referrt dto have been greatly diminished. So far, then
from there being any rule or principle in the course the
Bill adopted, it was perfectly capricious. It had been
said that the public demanded Reform : he would reply,
that the present measure could never satisfy the public—it
was altogether anotnahmus—it could suit no theory—it
could accommodate itself to no practice, at least to none
that was known to the Constitution. He knew it would
suit no theory, and lie knew that its practice would lie
felt as a grievance, and inconveniently known to all parties
as a source of discontent ; it would prove an endless source
of complaint and discontent, destroying as it did the fran-
chises in some places, and annihilating. others. The-old
system might not be without its faults, but the new was
essentially had,—and whatever defects might attach to the
more ancient system, they were, at !east, accustomed to it,
After observing upon the tendency to revolution, which
at all times prevailed in this country, the publicity
of debates of that House, and the influence of
ip„yer:i
nnl
oe
1;1 andtl,e
matterw i th( tf Constitutionhe i.
public opinion consequent thereon, he proceeded
e
umponobtsehrevepritnhcaitpleaCn(ra:tmantioopns,wifeorrernietmsl
of mien'the Bill,u House of
framers imagined, but proceed to deal with hereditary
aw
tollvarenPrd.n
Government
et
could
oh
uolllaiej.
pounds,aonfd of the
his opinion, the House of Commons had never end would
never support any Ministry, framr any considerable length of
time. unless confidence was reposed in it by the people.—
(Cries of " Question.") 11, however, the Bill could have
those ohjectiodable portions of it remote d to which he had
already alluded, he should be too happy to give it his vote.
But as the meesure now stood, not only were the repre-
sentatives to be new, but the Constitution also. Ile woule
confess that these things filled hint with alarm ; fur he
could not help fearing, that if this Bill once pasaed, it
would be the means of destroying the house of *Commons
and the Constitution-S-4 Constitution which, if it had
nothing else to reeommend it, hail at least b, en the means
of protecting property and liberty to a degree which had
never been known under any other Government. In this
country alone could the meanest roan rise to the honour
of a seat in that House—in this country alone could he
aspire to all the honours of the State. He thought that
these advantages were so important and so exclusively our
own, that he should be sorry tosee them running any risk,
more especially on account of a measure which, instead of
amending, would he the means of reconstructing and en-
tirely remodelling the Constitution. On thsse grounds,
he w:is slurry to say, that he was not able to give his sup-
port to the Bill.
The cries, on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman re-
suming his seat, for " 17eluestion.!" " Order !" " Divide ! '
and " Adjourn !" were so loud and reprated, that it was
some time before •
Sir THOMAS ACLAND mile" obtain a bearing. The
Hon. Baronet said, that Le would not have preferred hie

rm quest to the Hemet) be.allowed to .oblainthem for a :few
minutes,-if 'he had not attempted to obtain a hearing at a
much earlier period of the evening. He was of' opinion,
that he was called upon by his sense of duty to expl min his
the subject,a
remarkablebeftre he
featurewent to
of theth is vote.debate, irn
thatthe
fifer.esiti feelings
place, on
it svgs
no
Reforho m
one ad;
but those Hon. Gentl ventured to say that hemene was absolutelyed avthat
-rse
they were ready for some R.eform, though not for this
Reform, did not appear to him to have considered, that
by this admi:sion they were opening the door an itich or
two, and that by so doing they were in fact throwina it
mmpon to the whale cpmestion—(He hear)—which had
fir nearly fifty years, been knocking at the door in
v sin. Now that it gas thus generally admitted tl at the
sabject•must, in one abaime or another, be entertained, it
appeared to him to be trifling—to be almost nonomnse—to
t ilk of considering it in insignificant details. The fact
was, that they must make up their mind to some general
measure, or none at all—(Cheers)—if the question of the
second reading was Reform or not Reform ; for how mold
any one suppose, in plain and formal terms, that the second
reading of the Bill was to be met by the mere vaette antici-
pation of a non-existent phantasy--(Cbei cc.) He trusted
that the. Hon. Member for Cornwall would. excuse the ex-
pression ; and if such a proposition should ever tie proposed, it
semuld only be supported by those who were in earnest diame-
trically averse to the measure. To go into. the Committee
therefore, with such intentions as those, wind he. mere,
trtAing with the public and the question, because. though
the supporters might call themselves reformers, yet tl ey
scented prepared to go only to so very sli .•lit an extent that
they could not be surprised if no one felt inclined to put
any trust in then.—(Cheers.) He would not trouble the
House with any expression of the .feelings which he had
formerly entertained, or the sense which ono, in mde him
feel that it was necessary to remedy thy eltfects wile"' pre-
vailed in the representation—defects which placed power
in the hands of every enemy, and inflieted wounds on
every friend. lie would only sty on this point. that he
never hid bad a more painful task imposed on him than
when he had endeavoured to find out what was the real
course of his duty on a question, of which he was saying
but little when lie called it by far time most important in
decision and effect which could ever be presented to the
Legislature of a civilised country.—(Hear.) He could
assure the Ministry that it had been his most anxious
wish to give the most unqualified support to their mea-
-1 sore ; but, at the same time, he was bound to state, that
thouzh he saw much to approve in the Bill, and though
he felt-particularly pleased with the moderation and sineu-
!or honesty which was apparent in some portion of it,
still, after every effort that he bad been able to make to
bring his mind to go along with this measure, he could not
help coining to. the conclusion that it went too far._.
(Cheers.) The provisions of the Bill, in his judgment,
were carried too far ; sod at the same time they proceeded
with too rapid a pace. .He was not unwilling to consent
to a urge disfranchisement, or to adopt what was pro-
posed in the Bill with some abatement, which, in his
opinion, would nut militate to the disadvantage of the
measure ; but at the same time lie was not willing to con-
sent to the total disfranchisement of the boroughs as pro.
posed --(Hear, hear.)—With respect to Scotland, he
thought that the Government did right to propose that
the representation should be thrown open, and it was like-
wise, in his opinion, advisable that the large towns of the
county should be represented. But, though lie had then
objections to portions of the Bill, he felt that it was in-
dispensibly necessary on his part to vote for the second
reading of the Bill—(Loud cheering)—as he believed that
ample opportunity would be found, when the Bill Was
in Committee, to introduce such troolificznions as might
be rripOsite.
The cries for adjournment and division were loudly re-
newed on the Hon. Baronet resuming his seat.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, diet although the hour
was so advanced, lie had to solicit the patience of the
House for a short time, while he fxantined some of the
points that bad been touched upon, and alluded to a por-
tion of those arguments which had been use,' in the coureo
of the debate. A great many of them, however, in the
observations which had fallen from his Hon. and Learned
Friend (the Attorney. General) in the course of his ego.
quent speech, were so satisfactory in reply, that it would
no: be necessary for him to repeat them. In time first
plane he begged to rematk, that he iou:t differ from the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Attimissey- General of
the late Administration) its thinking that he could with
propriety, as a Reformer, vote for the second meoling of
the Bill._(Cheers.)-31r. Burke had spolon of persons
who had much retrospective patriotism; but when it was
a question of the present day, their i atriotism was alw,ys
wanting. Now, he would not say that the Hon. and Learn-
ed Gentleman's patriotism was retrospective, for it seethed
to be rather of a prospective nature. As long as Reform
dwelt only in generalities—as long as he had only to speak
ht,oe
atrbi
R.H,House and his
n 7; constituentsGo?nn
itts4neane
hraad said
lo t itre
and
that
was favourable to it; but now that. there was a practi-
cal measure, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had Made -
use of a set of arguments, which, in his (Lord Jot:n Rus-
sell's) opinion, did not go in favour of a more moderate
Reform, but militated against any Reform whoever.—
(Cheers.) On a previous night, the Hon. and Learned
Member for Weymouth (Sir E. B. Sugden) had stated
that he had perused the Bill, and that he was not able to
understand many of the provisions of it : but even if this
was the case, at all events it was clearer and plainer than
the imaginary resolutions which the Hon. Member for
Cornwall was to propose, and which were to go, no one
knew how far—and to be a sort of satisfaction to, no on
knew whom, unless it was those who were pre Fared o
vote against Reform, and yet wanted to persuade them-
selves that they were not altogether opposed to the mea-
sure. An Hon. Member had endeavoured to show, that
in early times the commonalty of Etmgland was another
rome for the Barons of Eegland ; but he (Lord J Rus-
moll) was not able to find anything that showed that that
House was not strictly the Commons of the country ; and
this bad been distinctly admitted at the t;nie or the revo-
lution.- Another fact which went to ahew the Mille thing
was, that at one 'blind the Lerd Warden of the Cinque
Ports had assumed the right of notnit.atiog the Meador!)
for those parts ; in cons, quenee of which a resolution was
come to, declaring that such nomination was to ntrary to
law, and to be declared void ; and it would appear mat
the present condition of time electors had arisen from the
intrigues that were going on from the time of George the
First to that of Gm orge the Thild, by which it was tound
that these burghs could he made a vain ode prommeety.
When the present Ministry had undertaken the task of
firming the provisions of this measure, the question that
they had asked themselves was, .‘ Was it fit that there
should be direct nomination for Members of that House,
and a sale of seats in it ?" This was the question wi icy he would also beg to propose to those who now opposed the
measure.—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Member for Corn-
wall thought that this nomination, and this s-tle of seat.,
were fit and proper, then surely he (Lord John Russ,-11)could not he wrong in thinking that the Itetorm the Hon.
Menshr would propose would not be a final Ri form:—
(Coeers.) He was not one of those who would not deny
advant.ges mieht arise from persons being able to ob.
rain seats in that 11111,1s.ti by the payment of a sum of mo-
ney—the most illustrious instance of which was, perhaps,
that of 11Ir, Ricardo—who, by the paytth nt of 1,0001. or
1,20 W. a S ear in the shape of in crest, had been en tided
yls
to display, through tho medium of the House, his great
if
madethey
in did
the nots-c or; ak
first
tthe Session aini •ni
,1,
ue system
now,vo
-f
abilities and talents. Itut the effect of continuing this
ste
Llilit salaka,ld that
be
a Reformed Parliament.—( Hear, hear. This, if the dis-
franchisement of these boroughs was not`permitted, would
be the inevitable consequence. This disfraochissment,
however, had been talked of as a hardship to the electors.
Hut it AVZS no hardship to 'them, for it was not one that
they valued or cared to exercise; and the only rtal ques-
tion was, whether the proprietors of these boroughs should
be allowed to exercise that privilege. It bad been asked
.why the Ministry had chosen to fit the line where they
did ; and why a borough with 1,900 inhabitants had not
as good a right to be represented as one with 2.000 inha-
bitants. But it was evident that the same argument might
have been used,ovbenever the time might Mavis been. fixed;
and yet it was equally evident that the Ihme most have been
fixed .somewhere—(Hear, heer)—and he Ital }retard no
reason given, why any other line would have been prefe.
rable. But the Hon. laud` Learned Gentleman Imad argued,
that if this measure was carried, the fair representation of
commerce would be lost. He must, however, confe.a„
that he could not eee how this was to happen.-
; nor why
men of commerce should be enabled to enter the House
without any further trouble than the payment of a emus of
money. It hod also been said, that one of the consequent:lN
of Reform would be, that the national credit would he d 0...
strayed. But it had been well observed in reply, th,o, the
destruction of the national credit would not only ruin nien
of large property, hot those of small- Pt"Permy also ; and
as the very principle of this Bill was to give the elective
franchise to men of small property, he expected that the
n aural consequence would be, that they would any return
representatives who were prepared to maintain theineitmla-
hi% of the funds, Another ohjecrion that had been iaken :
to the measure was, the injustice of adm pting the census ..
of 1821, for the purpose of determining the populatimo. of
the boroughs of England ; but ir was evident that if they
had attempted to take a census now, for the purpose of
settling which were to be diarranchi,d, and whist, not,
it would have given rise to every species of fraud and t-