The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-16 00:00:00

after the sovereignty of the Belgic nation was severed
rom that of Holland.—( Hear, hear.) In the month of
June, in the present year, his Britanic Majesty had
expressly recognised the right of the Belgianr to regulate
their affairs according to their own views. On that occasion
His Majesty, had distinctly recognized the separation of
the Netherlands from Holland. Under these circumstance,
the Honourable Baronet wished to know whether di-
rections had been given to the Treasury for a conti-
nuation of the payments, and whether the attention of
Government had been called to the question. Upon the
policy of con tinuing the payments at present, the Hon.
Baronet had not a word to say.
Lord ALTHORP did not think this was the time
for entering into a discussion of the question, though it
would be necessary for him in answering to Hon. Baro-
ronet's question, to state a few words. The treaty to which
the Right Hon. Baronet referred was undoubtedly that
the payment should continue to be made by the
Government of England only so long as the Nether-
lands were united to Holland, but it would be
necessary to refer to other parts of the nego-
ciat!on to understand what the clear meaning of the
treaty was. It was quite clear that the object of the
treaty was, that the King of the Netherlands, and the King
of Great Britain, should pay a certain portion of the
interest and principle due on the Russian loan to
the Emperor of Russia, so long as the Nether-
lands and Holland were united, meaning thereby to
give an interest to the Emperor of Russia to prevent
the separation of the Netherlands from Holland. The
whole negotiation proved this to have been the principle
The question which came before Government therefore
was, whether from the separation of the Netherlands
from Holland, under the circumstances which that separa-
tion had taken place, had in honour or in justice absolved
this country from the necessity of further payments ?
The Government were of opinion that it had not been
referred to the Law Officers of the Crown, and their opi-
nion confirmed the previous opinion formed by his Majesty's
Government, that this country still continued bound to pay
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that he had been en-
tirely misunderstood ; the only question which he had
asked was, whether the payments had been made under
the terms of the treaty, and, if it were not so, whether Par-
liament should be allowed to separate before coming to
some enactment on the subject ?
Lord ALTHORPE did net see any necessity for pres-
sing the course pointed out by the Right Hon. Baronet.
He had certaiuly applied the observations be had made to
the equity, and not to the strict law upon the subject.
He considered that his Majesty's Government were bound
in law to do what had been done.
Sir R. PEEL bad theught it but justice to his Majesty's
Ministers to state what his opinion was rather than turn
round upon them at some future period. What he wished
to know was whether the Exchequer was authorised iu
continuing those issues, and whether the Officers of the
Crown had given their opinion to that effect.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that, after
great consideration of the case, his Majesty's legal ad.
visers had formed an opinion that there could not in Law
or Equity be the slightest doubt but that the coutracting
parties never contemplated the passing away of the Sove-
rejgnty front the King of Holland, and that the obli-
gations of the treaty continued in full force. He
(the Attorney-General) when the subject came properly
before the House, should he able to vindicate the grounds
on which that opinion had been given.
Sir R. VYVYAN observed that his Right Hon. Friend
(Sir R. Peel) had read to the House the terms of the treaty,
which were, that in each of the separations alluded
to taking place, this could be no longer bound to the pay-
ment of the interest.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN thought that as regarded the
construction of the convention, it was utterly impossible
for two persons to form different opinions. To give it effect
it was necessary that an Act of Parliament should be
passed which embraced the very words of the convention.
It was, therefore, impossible for a Minister of the Crown
to issue the money of the public to perform an engagement
for which the country was not liable.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that he en-
tertained no doubt as to the legal construction of the in-
tat lament, and at a. proper period be would eaplaiu the
grounds on which he had proceeded.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to know whether the
opinions which had been given by the Attorney-General,
and his Learned Friends, was another obligation of the
Crown under the treaty, or or has it given another power
of the Court of Exchequer to issue the sums it had, because
if according to legal opinion, the Exchequer was authorised M
to issue the money, there was no use in the House imposs-
ing
restrictions at the Exchequer.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not consider him-
self called upon, to make any explanation at the present mo-
ment, but whenever the Right Hon. Gentleman thought fit
to bring the subject forward in a proper shape, he pledged
himself to uphold the opinion he had given.
He was confident that at a furture period he would be able
to give such an explanation as would be deemed entirely
satisfactory. His impression was decidedly, that the Crown
was bound by an obligation to pay the money. He, however,
felt that it was unfair and unjust to call on him to dis-
cuss the subject, and to enter at length into time views or
the arguments in favour of the payment without any pre-
vious notice.
Mr. GOULBOURN was sorry to put the Hon. and
Lorned Gentleman to any inconvenience, but from what
the Hon. Gentleman at first said he believed him to have
been fully able to answer any qnestions.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORPE observed that the Act of Par-
liament, in diftinct terms, gave the power to the
Treasury to enable his Majesty to comply with his
engagements, and in this case the engagement was, that
they were hound to pay the money.
Sir C. WETHERELL said it was right that the public
should know that an unreformed House of Commons exer-
cised ♦ig!lance in the management of the public money,
whateve. a Reformed House might do hereafter.—
He contended, that the Law Officers of the Crown, in
giving an opinion to pay money which they were not
bound in the terms of the Treaty to pay, had acted
illegally, and unconstitutionally—if they were bound in
honovr and good faith to pay it. it should have been done
by a vote of this House, and not by the authority of time
Law Officers of the Crown. He was confident that
his impression was correct, that every one of those
payments was a most flagrant breach of the law, and
he enveighed in strong terms against the law officers
clothing themselves of those duties which belonged ex-
clusively to the House of Commons.
(LEFT SITTING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Nothing of interest occurred in this House up to the
toe of our going to press.

The Gazette was not published when we went to press

PROTESTANT MEETING.

(Abridged from the Dublin Evening Mail.

The present awful position in which the Protestants of
Ireland ate placed having naturally excited the alarm of
men of property professing that insulted and persecuted
creed, it was thought advisable to convene a meeting in
Dublin of noblemen and gentlemen from every province
in the kingdom, in order that the present posture of affairs
might be cahnly considered and deliberately discussed, with
a view of laying before the Throne and the Legislature a
clear and faithful statement of the indignities to which
Protestants are subjected, and the dangerous position in
which, by mal-administration, this kingdom has been
placed.
Lord FARNHAM—Every measure adopted by the present
Ministry, every appointnsent made by the Irish Govern-
ment indicates their determination to trample on the Pro-
testants of Ireland. As to the particular resolution which
I mean to propose, it follows from the one moved by Lord
Longford. The resolution is—
" That the general sentiment of anxiety and alarm which
prevails among the Protestants of Ireland is, in our opinion,
fully justified by the spirit which appears to influence the coun-
cils and dictate the measures of his Majesty's advisers."
Colonel PERCEVAL-it is unnecessary for me to point
out an association which actually assumes to itself the
powers of the government of the country.—(Hear, bear.)
This association meets two or three times a week in the
city of Dublin, within a short distance of the scat of the
nominal Government—(Hear, hear)—but so far from that
Government appearing to discountenance such an as-
sociation, they heap every honour in their power upon
the man who originated it..-that man whose declared

object now it a repeal of the Union—(Hesr, bear)
and who I heard myself, in his place in Parlia-
ment, distinctly disavow an ulterior object—(Hear,
hear, hear)—notwithstanding that, he now as publicly
declares that be has ulterior objects in view; yet he is
upheld and cherished by the weak and vacillating Govern-
ment with which we are cursed.—(Loud cheers.) With
respect to the Kildare -place Society, it appears, if we are
to believe Mr. O'Connell, that a fortnight before Mr. Stan-
ley left Ireland he was decided in his intention of support-
ing that grant. He, however, as you all know, soon after
his arrival in England, changed his mind. 1 asked Mr.
O'Connell how it was that such an alteration had taken place
in the views of the Right Hon. Secretary, and he informed
me that he, and a few of his party, intimidated him.—
(Loud cries of bear.) That was Mr. O'Connell's answer to
myself.—(Hear, hear.) I will now refer to a few facts
which came under my special observation, and which wilt
further spew the vacillation of the Government.—(Hear,
hear.) I refer particularly to the Arms' Bill.—(Cheers.)
I had the honour to be one of a body of members of the
House of Commons, who waited on the chief Secre-
tary to assure him of our support of that mea-
sure, and we were led to suppose that Mr. St miry
would persevere in it. Mr. Stanley is a Cabinet
Minister, and he of course spoke the sentiments of the
rest of the Cabinet. The very next day, however, after
having had an interview with Mr. O'Connell, he suc-
cumbed to the dictation of the demagogues—(Cheers)—
ind withdrew the measure. What he said was, that he
gave up the measure in obedience to the wishes of an in-
fluential party in that House, to whose opinions he ac-
knowledged he was disposed to pay every respect—nay
further, that tbey enjoyed his confidence.—(Cries of
"Oh ! oh !") My Lord, after this statement lam sure
no person can object to the resolutions being too strong.—
(Hear, hear.) There can, I think, exist but little doubt
in any man's mind that the party wko are at present called
to the Councils of the King, are determined to overturn
all the Protestant institutions of the country, and, above
all, to sacrifice the Protestant Church.—(Hear, hear.)
The Rev. HOI.T WARINC-It would be well to inquire
who end what the Protestants of Ireland are? and having
ascertained that, to determine whether or not they are en-
titled to the sympathy of their fellow-countrymen in Great
Britain, and to the protection of Government.—(Hear.)
The Protestants of Ireland, my Lord, were originally an
advanced guard, or rather a forlorn hope of the army of
civilization, thrown out by England to humanise this
kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) They came over ht-re under
the promise of English support, and for some time the
Government of England did give all the assistance they
required. Under the fostering auspices of England they
established order and true religion where they found out-
rage and superstition in full possession.—(Hear hear.)
Such is the description of the Irish Protestants, and sueli is
the situatation which so loudly calls on them for complaint
and remonstrance.—(Cheers.) I feel we may he justified
in supposing it the policy of the present Government to
depress everything Protestant in Ireland, aye, and perhaps
in England too ; but it manifestly is with respect to this
country, at least ultimately to extinguish the Protestants
of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Lord Cloncurry has, in that
ebullition of stupidity and egotism which he lately in-
flicted on the public, pleaded guilty of being an United
Irishman—(Cheers)—and boasts of his sufferings in be-
half of a body who filled the land with rebellion and murder,
and triumphantly exults in the speedy accomplishment of
the objects of that patriotic body, by means less dan-
gerous than those which were so near decorating his Lord-
ship with a halter. Of course this Lord, I will not say
Nobleman, is no party man, or he never would have been
tdvanced in dignity, and his vast talents and respecta-
bility would have been lost as an adviser of his Majesty,
and an influential meddler in Irish affairs.—(Hear.) Can
it then be wondered at if the Protestants of Ireland should
'eel dejected and discontented with the present admini-
stration of affairs? One part of the Legislature has been
corrupted, and the other is assailed—(Hear, hear)—and
the prerogative of the Cre ma is, I fear, about to be exer-
cised to corrupt that portion which hitherto supported us.
Lord DUNLO proposed the following resolution :
" That while our local grievances and the deep and perma-
nent injuries with which we are threatened have led us to
dwell upon our own wrongs, we fully sympathise with those
steady and resolute men in Great Britain, who are struggling
to preserve the Constitution of England, so often and so justly
called the admiration of surrounding nations; that we are
satisfied that such a measure of Reform as that proposed dur-
ing the late Sessions of Parliament, instead of introducing into
the House of Commons men of more intelligence, more ability,
more virtue, or more independence, in place of those who at
present compose that assembly, would substitute ignorant and
unprincipled demagogues and adventurers—men who would
impose on the bad passions of incompetent electors, and would
direct their efforts to the overthrow of the most valuable institu-
tions of the country."
Should his Majesty's present advisers, however, con-
tinue to close the Royal ear to the voice of his people, the
catastrophe which I feel is hourly approaching—will be
hurried on by them and not by us.—(Hear, hear.)
whams ee Lea! bo their conduct hereafter, it is now
manifest that in order to save ourselves from being trampled
upon, we must cement in one union the Protestants of
the country—(Hear, hear)—and where, my Lord, can we
look for more powerful auxiliaries than iu the Orangemen
of Ireland—(Cheers)—whose physical strength, should it
be again necessary to call it into action, will be ready,
as heretofore, to be exhibited in support of the Consti-
tution.--(Cheers.)
BLACKE:RyA l}iva secondednLd ,0r
Idvt,il itoehnresolution.
tution.—(Cheers.)
resolutionsthatsbo hasuld
justL obreednVpAuLte
intoT La
propose it to this meeting, and I need not, I trust, say with
what cordiality I rise to do so. It is my decided opinion
that if Reform be carried, the repeal of the Union must
ensue, and as a necessary consequence of that measure,
I anticipate the downfall of the Protestant aristocracy.—
(Hear, bear.) Should the Irish Reform Bill pass, it will
give to the Roman Catholics such an increase of power in
Parliament, as not only to injure the Protestant interest,
but to obstruct any Administration from carrying on the
affairs of the State.—(Hear, hear.)
E. J. COOPER, Esq. M.P., seconded the resolution.
Lord Viscount MANDEVILLE-Can it be possible for a
moment to conceive that the feelings and interests of the
Orangemen will not be considered, when it is known that
their numbers exceed the entire population of Scotland ?
—(Hear.) Moreover, in calculating the physical force
of Ireland, something besides mere numbers ought to be
taken into account. We must bear in mind the moral
energy capable of applying and directing that force. I
simply declare the feelings of others, when I say there is
not a Protestant in Ireland who does not consider that he
is the descendant of a conqueror.—(Cheers.)
D. CROMMELIN, Esq.—Our strength, I apprehend, has
been rather underrated than the contrary. We come more
near, it will be found, to three millions than to two and a
half millions, as has been stated. Now, with all Mr.
O'Connell's boasting, he is not able to show that there are
more than five millions of Roman Catholics in this
country—and surely the disparity of numbers is not so
great as to warrant the Government in heaping all its
favours upon the Roman Catholics, and in depressing by
every means within their power the loyal Protestants of
the country.—(Hear.) It is an undoubted fact, that if
Reform be carried, from sixty to seventy Roman Catholic
Members will be returned for this country ; and if this
number do but stick together—as they most assuredly
will, what Ministry, may I ask, could withstand such a
combination ?—(Hear.) Mr. Crommelin concluded by
seconding the resolution.
Lord LONGFORD proposed " That an humble address be
presented to his Most Gracious Majesty, grounded upon
the foregoing resolutions."
Sir A. DANCER, Bart., proposed " That the following
Noblemen and Gentlemen be appointed a Committee to
prepare the same, with power to add to their numbers :
Viscount Mandevil!e, Earl of Roden, Earl of Longford,
Lord Farnham, Hon. Captain Trench, Lieut.-Colonel
Blacker, Colonel Irwin, Rev. H. Waring, Rev. C. Boy-
ten, F.T.C.D."
• The Earl of RATHDOWNE proposed, " That the Earl of
Roden, the Earl of Longford, Lord Viscount Lorton, and
Lord Farnham, be requested to present the address to his
Majesty."
Lord Roden having left the chair, the meeting adjourned.

M. MAJENDIE, who was, as our readers will
recollect, sent by the French Government to Surderland,
to report on the nature of the cholera morbus as it appears
in this country, has returned to London. He remarks that
of all the towns he ever saw, Sunderland is the must likely
to attract and retain the disease, on account of the extreme
poverty and want of cleanliness of a very large portion of
the inhabitants. We had thought that the French towns
were much worse, in respect to cleanliness, than even the
worst places in England. We believe, however, that both
countries are much worse than Holland. Let us hope
that the present alarm may lead to a great improvement.
If we may judge from the placards about town, and the
.
notices the country papers, nut only the prisons and the
workhouses, but the cottages of the poor generally, are in
a course of visitation. In Dulwich we hear that a la, ge
~übscription has been raised from the respectable inhabi-
tants to assist the poor with blankets, flannel, 8c•:...; hut
that no persons are supplied who will not consent to have
their houses white-limed and ventilated. Rlany of the
narrow streets in the metropolis are in a very filthy stale.
Cannot those whose business it is to look to the a Le in-
duced to get them cleaned of rubbish and filth? g4ijavj...;