The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

B 0001, ttn,l the liFsh4p fl 1),.!I ,
T'3.3,0001. 74rd the eic
-rn 4,1 65s sTiii? i tjA

leuk,t; to v-. 111.• Mt! It:•:1 pt L. for the
Of=hops. or the gl be houses ter the elerg). By another
return he found lb it the total church lands in Ir,4and
einoureed to 776 384 aorta, would give a very
la7g., annual rerital at only 11 per acre reat Besides
,Li„ he (.Ir. Osborne) Iseke up at Dehlin LTeiversity
as heirs/ brseeh, or sun in. yearn, ia i the Cherie..
f hen there was t • be eel's:sari ea the to, sbo% 0
3 000 0001., we understen') eel van sti by Puritanic tit
since the union.—(Hear, hear.) " But," said an Bon.
Gentlemen the other night, raking the argument of the
Primate of Ireland, whose word he represented as better
than another man's oath, "Itis a delusion, a clsptrap•
to call the It ish Church wealthy; divide the property
equally awing the 2,200 clergy, and they would have
but 2001. a year apiece." The curates were never called
upon in the regulation of church revenue—(Hear, hear).
—but when the object was to make out the Church pe-
verty-stricken then we heard of them—(Hear, hear)and an expectation was raised which it was never in-
tended to fulfil, and the cry was, " See what it will be
if these poor fellows get their rights"—which the par-
ties had not the most remote idea of giving them—'
(Hear, hear)—making the statement merely to delude
the House; he (Mr. Osborne) did not mean to say that
of the Hon. Merr, bar, but he believed the Primate,
in spite of his respectability, did purpose to delude the
public.—(Hear.) But was that the proper way in which
to put the question ? Was not the right question this.--
what was the necessity for having there 2,000 clergy
men, and whether it was not highly expedient that the
number should be reduced to the level of the wants ef,
the people ?—(Haar, heir,) In France, with some ;
30,000,000 of Roman Catholics, the revenue of theits
Church was about 1,500,000/. The Presbyterian.
Church of Scotland, which Adam Smith described as.
most effective in improving the morals of the peoples
had 58,0001. a year in his time, and had now nearly
200 000/. ; but would that give 2001. a year to each
nister ? In Ireland, for 800,000 Protestants, there were
1,643 benefices, a staff of 2,200 ministers, with a state:
provision of 680,0001., and for the ministers of the
7,000,000 of Catholics nothing at all.—(Hear, hear.)
Was not the exclamation of Lord Carlisle justified,
that there was la Church without faith, clergy without
flocks, the worst gains-of the sinecurist kept up upon the
worst' principles of the bigot ? There was a material
difference between "a good Protestant" in England and
in Ireland. In England that term meant a good "family.
man," who went to church, gave alms, and conducted.
himself in a decent respectable manner.—(A laugh.)
In Ireland " a good Protestant" was a phrase ar
plied to a man who continually reviled the Roman Cs.'
tholic faith. In Elizabeth's time the " good Protestant';
called massacre and spoliation planting religion and
lizstion; under the Commonwealth he was a man who,
would bring back the terrors of the Old Testament and
totally forget the mild doctrines of the New; after the
Revolution be added another article to the Thirty-els°
—" The glorious, pious, and immortal memory." People
who would probably hardly find one other point 01
which they agreed joined in hating Popish doctrines and
loving Popish property—(A laugh)—and these descen•
dents of Cromwell's troopers and William's mercer
ries, in the present day, wrapped up their cause with the
Established Church in Ireland.—(Hear.) In touching
ire question of sthe property of that Church, he (Mr;
o,berre) was aware that he should be told it was
sacred. That was always so; but this cry of " sac&
lege" was set up at the Reformation vvi•is much better
pretext than now. M. n somehow confounded the it spi:
ritual eontoctions with their worldly interests.—(Hear.)
But there,wa. no analogy bet tt tan corporate and private
property. So said Lord Chancellor Brougham, add'
tog that the Church received its pr:.prrty for the pet'
tornitinee of c rtain set vices, whereas private propsrl
was held unconditionally. and that toe pay of the army
might as well be cill-d as that of the Chun:l!!
Mackin/4,h might aleo be quoted. Warburton laid 11
down that the strive might resume what the state gave'
No Minister had ever stated in that llouse that there
was au analogy between corporate and private property
—(Hear, hear.) flow were the prec, dents? In 1732,
Parliament took the tithe o! agismeut,—in 1833 abolishrl
vestry cess and ten bishops. Why not go a step further?
—(Hear, hear.) In Cauada, alter the rebellion,--be;
happily we never did any of these things till blood bad
flowed—(Hear, hear)—we toek the Clergy reserves, a?d
though by Act of Parliament they were devoted to the
Protestant Church, part of them was now given for le°
sustenance and payment of the Roman Catholic clergy
And who consented to that? The Right Hon. Members
for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) and Tamworth (Sir R. Peel)/
and the Bishop of London. Let the precedent be applied
to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) An objection would be made
based upon the sth article of union. •Surely it was most
ill-advised and impolitic thus to hold out to the Rowse
Catholics of Ireland a premium to induce them W
agitate for the repeal of the union.—(Hear) But, In
fact, that article merely said that the two Churches were
to be united in government, discipline, and faith, Bed
made no mention of the temporalities of the Irish Church/
and contained not one word which prevented Parliament
from interfering with that Church, which was a thing
their own creation. Even if it did, we had already
tered the 4th article; was the sth more sacred? Tn 4
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) really disposed of tuz,
point, when he asked, " we are convinced that the su
eial welfare of Ireland requires an alteration of the 1,e,„
and a departure 'from the compact, are our legitlat'svo
functions to be so bound up that the compact is to
maintained in spite of our convictions?" adding that be,'
for one, had never been prepared to say that.—(Hearq
It might perhaps be insisted that we ought not to inter
fere with the temporaliti. s of this Church, because obe
had the exclusive possession of religious truth. That as"
gument, to use the words of an Hon. Gentleman (n
Disraeli), was " an organized hypocrisy." If the princie
was good for anything, why not extend it to Canada, thy
Punjaub, Malta, Labuan, and carry your dogmatic the°.
logy there ? But with more wisdom than small;
men shrunk from the application of their argument'
which would dismember this mighty (=Fire in which
every race claimed toleration for its creed.—(ll"l4
hear.) We heard much talk of "Protestant principles...
What did gentlemen mean by the term? Did they meth
persecution? Then he (Mr. Osborne) was no Prater_
tant.—(Hear.) If there was one Protestant principle II
should do well to act upon, it was that which was con..
es
oursecreted e
rattythe t
hßeefreigrmhtatioofn,parnivdatteo
i nt.wuhdigcmh
ewe—owed er:li
(Et
He did not see how those who talked so loudly of this
could say that we Protestants had exclusive religion'
truth.—(Hear, hear.) He had now to ask the House to
go info Committee " to consider the present state of tbe,
temporalities of the Church of Ireland." lie was no'
ioirig so with the view of abolishing it. All useful re'
toms mu, t b. feusded on mutual compromise.—(Hear.
near.) Neither did he wish to interfere with the exist:
eto tights or v, sec d ,nterests or the pr• sent incumbent"
—(Hear, hear.) But he toked the House to go 011
Committee for the pugs se of geeing if they cola
devise a plan by which the congr gational system Could
be curried out in Ireland insteal of the territorial.s.
(Hear, hear.) In one &Geese in Esglend—Chester
j
Int, bishop till lately presided over 1.500.000 of people
to the Establi-hr d Church; in Ireland tpo
archhlsh,ps and ten bishops presitied over 800 000. 111
England there was 0110 bi.tiip to 412 Letietic,s, to lie'
i..nd to 138. lie had no willl tir scheme to
propose; he would have one aichbisbop with 4.000
a year, aud reduce Via tf-n hish Ts to tive. with 2 0001.
a year. itch.— (Neer. hear.) The Right Hen. Boone:
(Sir G. Grey) could not impugn the moderation of
'
proposal. Lard J. Russell toad the House in 1844,---"
concur in theplay, play,pronounce,' by Dr. Whaiely, the
;
Archbishop of Dublin, for making the Iri,h Church
church of coogregafions, not parishes;" adding, .bat
though he thought the Protestant Church ought its be
provided fur, he did not believe that any thing till;
the amount now allotted to it was necessary.—(gese-;
table the
hear.) He (Mr. Osborne) also proposed to lay on
following resolution :—" That it is the opinie;
of this Committee that any surplus whichms
remain after fully providing for the Spiritus
instruction of the members of the Established Churcri,
in Ireland ought to be applied locally ,
the general education of all classes of the people.
(Hear, hear.) He had only to add, that he would We/
the Government not to think that the present state 02
Ireland was one which afforded them any great grove'
of satisfaction. Much had been heard from them when
in opposition of large and comprehensive measures to
be passed for Ireland; but what had they done? They
had suspended the Habeas Corpus Act and altered the
Poor Law; and taking the example of the man who elr.
deavoured to feed a starving dog with the produce of
own tail, they had passed a rate in aiel.—(A isugh.„!
They had lately ottained a bloodless triumph, crushing
agitation, and paralyzing all political feeling for the Pre;
sent in that country; but let them not imagine tits;
putting down the tumult raised by a mad enthusiast bed
taken away the feelings and sympathies of the nation!
(Hear.) Let them not be led away with the idea tbk
the present dull silence, proceeding from famine and de:•
spair, was the result of happiness and content.—(Heat')
Let them not urge " that this is not the time;" let 00.°
gladly seize an opportunity presented to them by Previ
denee, and boldly put this question, which they had over
and over again said lay at the root of Irish heartburnift,
and discontent, on a looting which their former repute'
tion demanded.—(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS seconded the motion.
Mr. MOORE said that he was bound by his oath to d°
nothing to subvert the Church as by law established In
Ireland. The Hon. Member, after adverting at sore°
length to the provisions of the' Catholic oath and to the
position of the Established Church in Ireland went 0.. t:
I
to say that the present was no new subject. t was::
old as the causes which gave it birth. He had read the
speeches of all the distinguished men of the present dl
on the subject of the Irish Church, and it had surprised
him that not one of the men to whom he had allude"
had ventured to maintain that the success of that oyster°
had been commensurate with its objects. He the2n.
alluded to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) in Me, and 16;
the speech of the Hon. Member for Oxford, both °
whom maintained that ehurch property was the same tis
private rroperty. Were the present a question of love!_:
millions of men living seven thousand miles away, P'
:olio be dealt wit'. dill...ready, but the question con
ct rued seven millioni of Mtn at their doors, and was not .
a
so much a question of humanity as one of policy 0121,
justice. The prosperity and the peace of Imlay:.
euebt to be erj et. of the most serious importance...,
and he believed that nothing could exceed the enormity
of the abuse of the Is n,tl Church. They had never con'
'forted any put of the nation in their attempt to itcP„ed 'se
the Catholic Church Is. land. 'I hey :lever succeee
iti isak,ng proselytes, although armies were put in reques.
-1,1.11, met elude districts had been depopulated. W 0 io
he heard Hon. Gontlemtn deft nittng Church property._,_
Irelenri. • e .sot bele Al.king whether, it their UPI;
was as clear us it was vicious, they could show a ref..
particle of alias to lb& present Church temper
t Eon. M. tab: r it atilt on to show the relet.',,,
tiroportion which the Protestant population bore to the
Catholic in the several provinces in Ireland. He biCl3O4
puci tap in eight parishes in the tittNetill 91. Tel