The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-18 00:00:00

PAIRED OFF,

Marquis of Thomond
Earl of Hardwicke
Penshurst (Vis-

count StrangfOrd)
in the Committee, to
eration of the Act.

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

An interesting discussion took place last night in
the House of Lords on the financial situation of the
country. Earl Grey obsereed, with regard to the
current year, three-quarters of which had already
expired, affording the means of speaking with to-
lerable certainty of the whole year, " that there was
a real increase in the income of the year of
1,812,0001.—a most encouraging prospect, and one '
which proved beyond question the advantages of
lowering the amount of taxation for the purpose of
increasing the revenue through the means of in-
creased consumption.—(Hear, hear, hear.)" The
Duke or Wellington had been recommending the
policy of having a surplus of income over expendi-
ture, both to meet unforeseen contingencies and in
order to operate as a sinking fund for the re-
duction of the national debt. We qiiite agree
with Earl Grey, " that money left in the pockets
of the people to be applied by the agriculturist,
the trader, and the manufacturer, to the advance-
ment of their speculations in their social pursuits, tends
more to the increase of public prosperity—tends
more to relieve the burthens of the great body of
the people, and is better adapted to the promotion
of the general interests of the country, than the
obtaining a surplus with the intention of reducing
the immense mass of our debt ;" and that " it is
more advisable to go on with our present small
surplus, than, by laying on fresh taxes or continuing
old taxes, which press heavily on the people," for
any such purpose as that stated by the Duke of
Wellington. It is well known, that no great
country can ever suffer alone, and that difficulties
in the country are more or less felt in others,.
We have often anticipated, from the diffusion of
this important truth, a better understanding among
the nations of the world. No small share of our
immense debt was incurred in wars to conquer
commerce—to enrich ourselves at the expense
of our neighbours. Now that it is known that
a country thrives by the thriving of its neigh-
bours, we give to all nations in which the people
influence their Governments a powerful motive for
remaining at peace. The inferences, from predilec-
tion for war in past times, that the people will again
be fond of wars, are not fairly drawn, the important
difference between past times and ours being lost
sight of. Au Autocrat may make wars of conquest,
because his consequence may be promoted by exten-
sion of territory and increased numbers of people,
while the comforts of the people themselves are im-
paired. But a people must always lose by war; and
When the nations know their true interests, they
will seldom see a cause sufficient to justify warring
against each other. • There was a time, and that not
a remote one, when the people of England not only
thought they could gain by the distresses of the Con-
tinent, but conceived it was their interest to prevent
Ireland becoming rich. In the pamphlets published
about the year 1740 and 1750, the point whether
Ireland ought not to be kept poor to prevent her
running away with our trade, was one of frequent
discussion. Earl Grey alluded last night to the ef-
fect produced in this country by the unsettled state
of the Continent : •
" The present year," said he, " hail been one of no or-
dinary difficulty and pressure. Many circumstances had
contributed to render it so. The unsettled state of Eu-
rope had produced a material effect on the commercial
transactions of the country. From the month of August
the exchanges, it could not be denied, had been against
us, and the drain of bullion to the Continent had conse-
quently been very great. This had, of course, increased
the distress, by limiting the amount of the circulating me-
dium ; but he was hound to say that the praiseworthy
liberality and discretion with which the Bank of England
managed its affairs had rendered the pressure as little severe
as possible, and tended much to check the effects which
might have otherwise been produced from such a state of
affairs. The exchanges, he was happy to say, were again
turned to our favour ; the bullion was coming back again ;
and as he entertained a sanguine expectation of the con-
tinuance of peace, he anticipated a period of greater pro-
sperity than we have known for some time past. With
reference to the continuance of peace, he was rejoiced to
be able to speak with more than former confidence."
His L irdship then alluded to the affairs of Bel-
gium and Holland, and stated that the terms of
adjustment would now be presented to these two
States ; that it was hoped they would be accepted,
but that if they were rejected, the Powers were
prepared to enforce obedience to their wishes.—
Morning Chronicle.
Earl Grey concluded his answer to the observa-
tions of the Duke of Wellington on the financial
state of the country, with a reference to the prevail-
: ing excitement On the subject of Reform, in the
course of which he explained what were the views
of the Government, and gave an account of what had
taken place at the late interview with the deputies
from several metrop ilitan parishes. Alluding to the
intensely powerful feeling of the great body of the
people in favour of Parliamentary Reform—so
powerful, indeed, that few of their Lordships would
now deny the existence of it—he said it was con-
solatory to him to reflect, that deep and intense as
that feeling must be, except in a very few instances,
it had not broken beyond the bounds of constitu-
tional ?
privilege. Speaking of the deputation, he
said that expressions had been attributed to him
which are not correctly stated by those who have
made them public. His Lordship then gave in some
detail, an account of what hedid say on the occasion.
" I said nothing of any period of adjournment--I said

❑othing of a prorogation of Parliament to the end of 31-
nuary (till after Christmas was the statement)—l said no-
thing of time—l reserved to myself the power to exercise
any discretion on the advice I should give on that subject,
and I think I have a right to claim from the public for
my colleagues and myself—whether that time form a long
or a short one, whether it prove of the usual length or less
—that we have taken that course which we think most
conducive to the accomplishment of that object which we,
as well as the public, most anxiously desire. With respect
to the Reform measure itself, I said there could be no ques-
tion that some alterations were necessary—that it would
be our duty to consider what those alterations were to be,
hot I repeated what I had said before, that I never would
be a party to the recommendation of any measure not
founded on the same principles as that which had been re-
jected, and as effectual for the accomplishment of the rzb-
fects which it was declared to have i❑ view.—(llear, hear.)
These were the expressions I used, except that when the
deputies intimated in strong terms their fears for the con•
tinuance of the public tranquilli•y, I told them the Go•
vernment expected that they and every one should use their
utmost efforts to repress disturbance, and enforce obedience
to the laws; and that I trusted their• exertions would be
effectual, and that the Government would not be driven
to the painful necessity of using the powers with which
they were entrusted to preserve the tranquillity by force.
These wet e the sentiments I tittered, and I trust, as I
said before, that whatever may be the length of the pro-
rogation, the people will do us the justice to believe, we
have adopted the course most conducive to the public wel-
fare, and in our judgment most likely to promote the ob-
ject we have before us."

His Lordship then adverted to the extent of their
labours, and the necessity for some repose; and

though he was quite ready to admit that every thing
must give way to a sense of public duty, " he
hoped, that if the Government adopted any course
of which any of the more sanguine of their fellow
subjects did not fully approve, that they would at
least wait to see the effects which it would produce,
a confidence to which he thought they were entitled,
and of the absence of which the conduct of the Go-
vernment hitherto would give them a just title to
complain." The Lord Chancellor said, with regard
to the alleged difference between him and Call Grey,
that " if there were any two of the Members of the
Government who differed least on the matter of de-

tail, it was his Noble Friend and himself. With:re-
spect to the question of the recess he had no
fears—whatever might be the impatience of one
or two well-meaning, but overanxious indivi-
duals—that the people would do full justice to
the motives of the Government in the time which

they might propose." We are sorry to see from
all this that the recess, in all probability, will not be
a short one. We can only repeat what we have said
again and again, that the people have always been
ready to do full justice to the motives of Govern-
ment. The people believe them honourable and
upright men. But confidence in honourable inten-
dons, and confidence in their ability to give effect to
their intentions, are quite distinct. Minis'ers may
have grounds for confidence which the public are
not aware of; but we must state frankly, in the
f.ice of the people of England, that the proceedings
in the House of Lords, though highly honourable
to the character of the Ministry, do not tend to
remove the apprehensions of the people as to the
ultimate fate of the measure. Ministers must have
supposed they could carry the measure ; but they
did not early it. The Lords who out-voted them
are stlll the determined enemies of the people—still
hostile to all Reform that is worth one straw—till
ready to avail themselves of whatever may turn up
favourable to their views. It is of immense conse-

(pence that the present men should remain in
power. \ay, more, we have no hesitation in
saying that the resignation of the Ministers
would have been the signal for a Revolution
throughout the country. We fervently wish,
therefore, that we could ourselves have that
confidence which Ministers claim. But when
we see Anti-Reformers still exulting in the indiffe-
rence of the people, all the time loudly cheered on
by their adherents, and know that they must all
hate Reform in their hearts, and can only be gained
over by intimidation (we will not blink the word)
how are we to believe that the moment the country
ceases to be intensely excited they will not take
advantage of the circumstance ? Besides, all classes
are now suffering so severely from the paralysis to
which the Reform has given rise, that discontent is

universal. We wish Ministers had been somewhat
more distinct with regard to their intentions. If
they claim from the country a just confidence, the
excellent conduct of the people during this emer-
gency justly entitles them to much confidence in
return.—Morning Chronicle.
There is no satisfying the Anti-Reformers. Not-
withstanding all that has taken place and is taking
pace throughout the country, they will have it that
the people are indifferent with respect to the Reform
Bill, 6. The feelings of the people in favour of the
said Colonel Trench last night, " were
Rhyerm
noo meansBill,"so strong or so general as they had
Reform
been. Where they had been carried away by a de-
lusion, they were now coming to their senses.—
(Cheers.) The people had been excited and influ•
enced •by the Press.—(Hear.) He supposed that
the Hon. Gentlemen had seen in the first page of a
newspaper of yesterday, the drawing which repre•
sented three Bishops hanging from a gallows.—
(Cheers and a laugh.) That was no doubt intended
as a suggestion to the people how to deal out their
revenge upon those who had opposed the Reform
Bill.--(Cheers.)" We suppose Colonel Trench in-
fers the indifference of the people from their not deal-
iitngwsovsitslin thee
stishos
dtopthinenithe wtheayy
should
he conceives
olulddeal.Nve
beg leave to a disabuse the Gallant Colonel, if he
really thinks the English people are indifferent, be-
cause they do not lay violent hands on all whom
they dislike. The English are not a vindictive
people. They dislike boroughmongers and dislike
Bishops ; but in an age in which Jurors cannot be
induced to convict capitally for other crimes than
itm ur d
isneort, from
lai nk
eal
yv e rtsi oha tt
voi
os al
enigi
cuei sanguinaryl pbt
eini sh
offered
m en ttso,
the persons of even boroughmongers and Bishops.
If the Government, during the war, employed Gil-
wray and other caricaturists to exhibit their oppo-
nents in characters and attitudes, which could hardly
fail to be galling to many of them, it is hardly to
be wondered at if the same coarse liberty should be
taken with Bishops. It was intended as a joke. We
may not admire the joke, but other people might.
All that can be inferred from it is, that Bishops are
not held in much reverence at present. Let any man
venture to exhibit any object of general tegard in
andoke we are
tell
agaminissttaken if he
himself. do not
oColonel
Tstlo'reennsaemhtineldiaptlihgbehettl ter apply to Lord Wharncliffe for
indifference as to the Reform Bill, or to Lord Lons-
dale (for the Cumberland yeomanry are following
the example of the Yorkshiremen). Sir Francis
13urdett very happily observed, that" it seemed ra-
ther inconsistent in Honourable Qentlemen opposite
in breath to blame his Majesty's Ministers
for the people, and to aasert that the people
excited." There is no satisfying people
troheeanroselit
wh
n e
exciting
determined not to be satisfied. The bo-
roughmongers and their nominees have eyes, and
they do riot see; ears,and they do not hear. IVllas
they say about the excitenipnt produced by the
Press, displays such a miserable weakness of intel-
lect,
that
coulditat
would provoke only contempt if the
people
contempt men w
mischievous,—MOrning Chronfcle.
hporehsoevnet afford to
in
tthreeairt
power to
t%ovihtl;
Vlore resignations—or, in plain English, more dis-
missals—have taken place among delinquent members of

the Household. Why, in the name of wonder, should not
these legitimate means of supporting the national policy
have been resorted to at an earlier day ? The mere
threat would have sufficed ; and if not, so much the bet-
ter. Now we refer to Lord Howe's dismissal, purely
because it may serve for a topic of friendly admonition to
his Majesty's Ministers with regard to their future con-
duct. They may be assured that few circumstances were
productive of more mischief to them as a Government,
than their being apparently browbeaten by these Court
favourites, under the very eyes of the Sovereign, whose
entire confidence, it was argued, Lord Grey and his col-
leagues could not have enjoyed, since the titled servants of
his Majesty's hou4ehould were suffered to oppose, with im
punity, that great measure on which the others, his re-
sponsible counsellors, had staked their political existence.

It was clear, we repeat, to the whole scrutinizing world,
after Lord Grey had announced to the people of Eng-
land, that " by
_the Reform Bill aids administration
" would stand or fall," every vote given against the Bill
was a vote to turn him out of office ; and when such
votes were tendered by individuals in daily intereouse with
the Sovereign and his Consort, was there any thing unna-
tural in the conclusion that those Royal personages did not
much discountenance the efforts made by the confidential
inmates of their own Palace to overthrow the Cabinet of
his Majesty's ostensible choice ? Indeed there is no con-
cealing the fact, that impression did prevail in many quar-
ters against the sincerity of the Court towards the respon-
sible Government, and therefore unfavourable to its strength
and stability. So far as might be done without the risk
of adding to the evil, we long ago threw out hints upon
this important subject, and reminded the administration
that it was departing from one principle which had
most honourably distinguished the Whig statt smell
under the late King's regency, and at other periods,
from the Tory enemy,—viz. that, by virtue of which
they claimed the household offices for noblemen arai
gentlemen who would support the ostensible Government,
instead of thwarting it, and intriguing against it, and
forming the privy chamber of the Sovereign into a den of
indsfitigable conspiracy for the destruction of his Mini-
sters, unless the latter would grant, as the price of Court
friendship, a series of iniquitous jobs against the people,
and robberies on the public purse. It is fair, then, to
apprise Earl Grey and his colleagues, that what has been
at length accomplished in the cases of Lord Howe and Sir
Byant Martin, ought to have taken effect sooner, thereby,
certainly, thninishing the majority against the Bill in th,
House of Peers, by its influence, in terrorem, upon the
votes of all Lords in office; while the dismis,als, only
meditated with respect to other parti-s, male aid female,
as fit to be executed at same future day, ought to be inflicted
now—this moment. Whatever may be the good intention,
if Ministers—and we unfeignedly give them credit foe
the hest,—they never will possess the full confidence of
the nation in their stability, if they spare those that
are cutting the floor from under them, especially when
those enemies have their abode within the Palace. Let
Lords Grey and Brougham but be true to their own emi-
nent position,—let them occupy it skilfully, and defend it
stoutly, and no human force can wrest it from their bands.
The public will see with satisfaction how the Tory false-
hoods, ever so cunningly constructed, are one by one ex-
posed, and their authors ridiculed. The abuse of Lord
Broughato's name to factious purposes, we-have already
noticed. Last night his Loi (Ishii) once more rebuked the
slanderers. He declared that there was the most perfect
agreement between himself and Lord Grey, not only upon
the principle, but upon every clause and provision of the
Bill—what next will the lying Gazettes resort to ? So
likewise Lord Grey himself took the trouble to set right
the misrepresentations of his language to the parochial de-
puties. His Lordship denied in into the statement which
had been furnished to one of our contemporaries, respecting
tile length of the prorogation, as anticipated on the alleged
authority of the Noble Earl's words. The prorogation will,
see have reason to believe, be no longer than absolute ne-
cessity calls for. Lord Grey, in his teply to Sir J. Hobhouse,
which we have elsewhere inserted, pledges himself to a Bill
no less efficient" than the former one. Why not,
with some small exceptions, the Bill itself to which many
Members of both Houses have directly and distinctly
pledged themselves; whereas those who are disposed to play
the Jesuit among them may not feel the force of such ob-
ligations in favour of a different, though equally effective
Bill. Dishonest opposition being that which there is
tuost cause to fear, every pretext ought to be guarded
against with as much care as the most solid reason. Lord
Grey concludes his letter of acknowledgment to Sir John
Holihouse, with a declaration that lie and his brother Mi-
nisters will take all the " most effectual me mu for carry-
ing the Reform Bill." They will therefore dismiss all
I spies and traitors from the camp ; they will also not scruple
' to create as many Peers as may lie requisite for " carry-
ing the Bill." Peers for kfe—and what legal or consti-
tutional objection is there to such a creation ?—can work
no lasting adulteration or disparagement of the hereditary
Peerage. We see that in Cambridgeshire, the cry is again
raised against the Bill, as a weakening of the Aristocracy,
The only Aristocratic power to be impaired by 4a—that is
to say, the close borough power,—is one which ought
never to have exis:ed.—

Public anxiety is now upon the stretch with respect to
the prorogation. We should say " Let it be soon begun,
and soon over." The country cannot--.ought pot to be
kept long in its present feverish state. But certainly
above all things let care be taken not to sink a nation into
dispair by the issue; for we have now our rights ahnoet
within our grasp. We must not be disappointed: they
must not be snatched from us now, or fearful will be the
consequences. Ministers, therefore, we are sure, will take
the necessary steps for securing the success of the Bill,
and they will lose no time in taking those step., Be the
recess brief and well employed. Indeed, we can hardly
conceive what there is which it is iudespensable to do on
the present occasion, which may not be as well done in
thirty days as in thirty years. Sir Francis Burdett, it
will be seen by our Parliamentary report, informed Mini-
sters that " if the Government should betray any weak-
ness.—if they should evince a want of energy in Liking
all the steps necessary to ensure the success of the measuro,
or should allow any unnecessary delay in litringing it for-
ward,—there could be no doubt that they would at once
lose that support which tha country was now ready to give
them." The Hon. Baronet spoke truly. But we will
add, that they will lose more than their popularity,."-they
will lose their character as honest men.— Tiws.

We mentioned yesterday that a definite arrangement
,liad been concluded under the mediation, or rather at the
diet ition, of the London Conference, between Holland and
Belgium. Nut having the document before us, we did
not, of course, pretend to enter into the particulars of the
treaty, and only alluded to the settlement of the three
chief litigated points—namely, the possession of Luxem-
burg, the partition of Limburg, and the distihntion of
the common debt. The following outline is a more ex-
' tended account of the urrangetnent, and contains a cor-
rection of some part of our yesterday's statement :—The
11 basis of the convention is the extent of territorial posses-
sion belonging to Holland in 1790. The Patch, there-
fore, retain all the territory on the left bank of the Scheldt.
The navigation of that river is to be regulated in the same
m inner, and according to the same principles, as
by the treaty of Vienna. The portion of Luxem-
burg which is assigned to Belgium is wort than
half that province, and in exchange for this (Ts-
skin by Holland, the later obtains a part of Lim-
burg containing a population less by 50,000 persons than
that portion of Luxemburg which is relinquished by the
treaty. The King of Holland holds thn remainder of
Luxemburg, and, as Grand Doke of that province, ib
961 to be a member of the Germanic confederation.
Maestricht remains wholly Dutch. Antwerp is, of course,
to be given up to the Belgians as soon ry the treaty is
ratified, and the latter on their pa;t w ill surrender Venloo.
The debt is not divided einally by this treaty ; the inte-
rest of the whole amounts to about 27,000,000 of guilders,
of which Belgium is only to pay between 8,000,0 N and
9,000,000, be:ng rather less than one-third. pleni-
potentiiries of Belgium and Holland 1411 London on Sun-
day morning to obtain thc zatiacation of the treaty. - 'So
earnest a deP‘ise, is is said, existed in the members of the
Conference to bring this matter to a termination, that they
resolved on Friday night not to break up till it was accom-
plished, and actually sat till five o'clock on Saturday morn-
ing in fulfilment of this 0bi?..4,....,4rimex..

In another column will be found a letter from Earl
Crey to Sir J. C. Hubhouse, in which the intenion of his
Majesty's Ministers to bring in a Bill at the commence-
ment of next session, " not less effective" than the Bill of
Lord John Russell, is plainly and unequivocally stated..l
This avowal will, we trust, have the effect of at once or'