The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 17,

that the expenses of shipment, which were intended for
five hundred emigrants, would be made to serve for a
thousand. He was the more surprised at this, as he was
credibly informed that there were arplications
for 150 passages daily, and that fifty ships
had already been dispatched • with emigrants
daring the present year. It the case ,A as as he
had been informed, he feared that it would tend greatly
to discourage the accumulation of fund, voluntarily
forming for the purpose of emigration to of; r countries.
He wished, therefore, to ingqire whether a gentleman
had been sent down to Dorsetshire for the purpose which
he had stated?

RIVER PLATE.
Mr. EWART asked the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs whether there was any prospect of an adjustment
of the difference existing between the Republics on the
River Plate, and whether there would be any objection
to lay before the House any correspondence which may
have passed upon the subject?
Lord PALMERSTON was understood to say that at
the present moment it would be injurious to the public
interests if the papers on this subject were laid before
the House.
SIR H. BULWER AND THE COURT OF SPAIN.
Mr. BANKES begged to ask the Hon. Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, now that it was stated that Sir
H. Bulwer had been appointed the accredited ambassador
to another Court, whether the matters of difference be-
tween the English Court and the Court of Spain were
adjusted, or were in the course of adjustment?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the negotiations
on that subject were still going on.
HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION ACT (IRE-
LAND).
Mr. WALPOLE said the motion for the third read-

Mr. HAWES said that he bad not received any no-
tice of the question, and was therefore not prepared to
give an answer, but would do so at some future day.
SITTING ON AS li-WEDNESD AY.—BRIBERY

ing of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act for Ireland
was expected to take place on Monday next. As other
important business was likely to come on on
that day, he should be glad if the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government could say whether the third
reading of that measure was likely to take place on that
day in preference to the other business.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he hoped there would
be time to get through the other business of the day;
nevertheless the motion on the Habeas Corpus Suspen-
sion Act would take precedence.
THE ESTIMATES.
Mr. HUME said he had put a question on this sub-
ject the other night, and the answer which he got was
neither courteous nor explanatory.—(Laughter.) They
had had estimates for voting 15,000,000/. of the
public money at least ; and he begged to ask her
Majesty's Government whether they were prepared, be-
fore the call of the House, to submit a statement—call it
a budget or whatever they pleased—by which the
House would be informed of the accurate amount of the
expenditure of the Government and the means by which
those expenses were to be defrayed. At the
end of the last session they had had to have
recourse to loans, which was much to be deplored and
condemned; and therefore he begged to ask the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to
submit to the House a statement of Ways and Means
as well as the amount of expenditure which the Go-
vernment contemplated this session.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (as
we understood) that the usual course would be followed.
Mr. DISRAELI said he had seen a statement in the
papers, that in consequence of the state of the country
it was necessary to have a great increase of taxation.
He certainly trusted that the usual course would not be
followed on the present occasion.
Mr. HUME was sorry to say that if this system was
persevered in, he should be compelled to take a course
which he feared would be considered very troublesome
by the friends around him, but until he was rightly in-
formed as to the means of meeting these expenses, not a
sixpence would he vote towards either of the ser-
vices. •He would be no party to any• such thriftless
measure as this was, to spend the money first, and then
look out for where it was to come from. As it was chiefly
through the assistance of the country gentlemen that this
expenditure was incurred by her Majesty's Ministers last
year, he did appeal to them on the present occasion, and
entreat them to join him now in an attempt to resist
such an imposition on the country.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that his Honourable
Friend the Member for Montrose had asked two ques-
tions, one of which was as to whether it was the inten-
tion of his Right Honourable Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer to lay the estimates
on the table of the House, with such statements
as would enable Hon. Members to judge of the diffe-
rence made through the recommendation of the Com-
mittee last year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that that was not the question. What his Hon. Friend
the Member for Montrose wished to know was, what
means the Government had in possession, or whence
they intended to derive them, for meeting the expendi-
ture, and how far the estimates differed from those pre-
pared last year. In reply, he might say that all the
matters to which the Hon. Member referred had been
duly considered. He proposed to lay the estimates on
the table of the House, and take the discussion on the
second reading.
Mr. WARD said all the decisions of the Committee
had been duly considered, and such as had met with the
sanction of the Board to which he was attached had been
introduced into the estimates.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was necessary to adopt
a certain course in preparing the estimates; but every
proceeding which had been recommended by the Com-
mittee of last year had been adopted.
HABEAS CORPUS (IRELAND) SUSPENSION
BILL.
On the queition for the consideration of the report en
this Bill,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL proposed the adding of a clause
securing the right of petition in reference to the
repealing of Acts ; and, in doing so, he again took
occasion to denounce the Government and those
Members who supported them for introducing this mea-
sure to curtail the liberties of the Irish people.
He insisted that no case had been made

out for passing this Bill; but, at all events,
if they must suspend the constitution in Ireland, let
them take care to secure to the peaceful portion of
the community the right of meeting to discuss their
grievances. The Right Hon. Baronet who introduced
the Bill had been ashamed to admit that it was

isted—(Laughter)—but he hoped those who now enjoyed
that honour would act in a far different manner. For
his own part, he should give it every opposition which
the forms of the House permitted.
Mr. REYNOLDS having o❑ a recent occasion spoken
of the manner in which the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland
acted, with great pain, felt it his duty to a'k her Ma-
jesty's Government whether those prisoners now in cus-
tody in Kilmainham gaol, as noticed by his Honourable
Friend the Member for Westmeath, were treated with
the severity to which public attention had been called?
He understood they were deprived of all opportunities of
seeing the public newspapers, and otherwise punished
with unnecessary severity; but, possibly, as that prison
was under the control of a board of superintendence, the
fault rested with them.
Sir GEORGE GREY replied that whatever culpa-
bility attached to the proceeding the Lord-Lieutenant of
Ireland was ready to take his due share of it-4-inas-
much as he approved of the step which had been
.taken
under the peculiar circumstances of the case. The fact
was, that six of them were removed from the criminal to
the debtor_side of the prison, and indulgences allowed

them which they had not before enjoyed ;-but they' then
availed themselves of the facilities afforded to commu-
nicate with the public papers, to write articles and letters
of a highly objectionable character. When remon-
strated with they refused to desist from the practice,
and the consequence was that their removal again
to the criminal side of the prison became a matter of
necessity.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR asked was it a fact that a Mr.
Meany, one of those confined, had, for writing a letter to
the Freeman's Journal, on the 9th of December last,
been told by Mr. Shaw, the High Sheriff of the county
of Dublin, that if he did so again he should remove to the
criminal side; and that on the 31st of January, when he
had written another communication, the High Sheriff
again came and asked him why he did so ; to which
Meany replied that as long as he had a griev
a of, he should not be deterred from
exposingucto c
who injured
iairjured him? It then appeared that the
High Sheriff called for a party of police, and had him
k
na
waybj force.—(Loud cries of " Spokeen;lemen might cry out " Spoke spoke.")
Honourable , spoke,"
butae
if
they were in that unfortunate individual's position
t
they would not say so. When the Right Honourable
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment admitted these things were done with the concur-
rence of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, it was time
that some inquiry should be made into the matter.—
(Loud cries of "Spoke, spoke.") If the House granted
him a Committee of Inquiry, he would undertake to
prove what he bad stated. Five others were removed
at the same time against whom no charge whatever was
brought.
Sir GEORGE GREY had only again to state,, that
although he had not heard before of the particular cir-
cumstance! alluded to by the Hon. Member for Notting-
ham, he would again repeat, that they were removed
from one side of the prison to another, and sent back
again, in consequence of what he had already inform, d
the House. With regard to a police force being used,
that became necessary in consequence of the individual
alluded to avowing his intention of using force if any at-
tempt were made to remove him.
Mr. HUME asked the Right lion. Gentleman why it
was that certain convicted parties in this country were
denied all access to the papers, and treated in other re-
spects with a severity very unusual in this country?
Sir GEORGE GREY replied, that though he was
aware of what the Hon. Member alluded to, yet the
Government had no power whatever to interfere. The
Act of Parliament placed the discretion in the judges,
and it was to them the application should be made.
Mr. ANSTEY said his opposition was not at all
abated, but as they had already decided the question, he
hoped the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick
would not ask them to go to a division. He believed that
the Hon. Gentleman had made various misstatements in
his very lcng speech. For example, he said that the
letters std proclamations of the Lord-Lieutenant
would, littler the Bill, have all the force of the law,
but in tiat he was grossly mistaken. The Act of
Parliament gave no such power; it authorised him to
arrest persons suspected of treason, and confine them to
any one of her Majesty's gaols as long as it pleased him.
The effect of the Hon. Gentleman's amendment would
be to declare that a constituent assembly, met for the
purpose of petitioning, would be high treason, and as he
could not agree that such a precedent should be set,
which was calculated to affect seriously the liberties of
the people, he should feel bound to vote in favour of her
Majesty's Government, if the measure were pressed to a
division.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed that at last a voice was
heard in that House in defence of the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act. English Members had spoken
against it; Scotch Members had spoken against it; but
a voice was raised from Youghal in its defence. They
had now declared war against the Irish people; but he
had no hesitation in saying that they would in the end
be discomfited.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL had heard of cottage law,
and certainly, to say as the Hon. Member for Youghal
had said, that that Bill would not give despotic powers
to the Lord-Lieutenant, was the most absurd thing he
ever heard of.
Mr. ANSTEY, amid loud cries of " Spoke, spoke,"
denied he had ever said so. What he said was, that
it gave him power to arrest persons for treasonable
practices.
The House then dived. The numbers were—

... 12
... 94

For the amendment ...
Against it ...
Majority ... —B2
The report was received, and the Bill was ordered to
be read a third time.
RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.

intended to prevent the Irish people from en- On the bringing up of the report on the resolution
deavouring to procure the repeal of the Act adopted in Committee of the whole House, appropriating
of Union. When a Minister was not ashamed to a sum of 50,0001. for the relief of Irish distress,
own such an object there was no hope for the people Mr. P. SCROPE moved the amendment of which he
over whom he proposed to tyrannise; but in this instance had given notice, to the effect, that the sum to be voted
the Right Hon. Baronet was too honest to avow the real for that purpose be a loan, and not a grant. Future
intention of the Ministry in seeking this unconstitu- grants must be applied for, otherwise the House would
tional Bill ; and he therefore had some hope the cries of be charged with allowing the people to die of starve-
the people of Ireland for relief from oppression would tion. It was, therefore, essential that a sound principle
not be disregarded. The purport of the clause proposed should be at once adopted. The land in Ireland, if
was, that whereas doubts were entertained how far the properly cultivated, was quite able to support the able-
Act of last session applied to the holding of public meet- bodied population, and he did not see what right the
ings, "that it should be declared that nothing in the 11th landowners and ratepayers of Connaught had to quarter
and 12th Victoria should apply to the holding of legal their poor upon other districts. The proper course to
meetings in Ireland," he was astonished that this pursue was to make the fee-simple of the land liable for
measure should have been brought forward at all upon these rates. The present system rendered the cultiva-
such flimsy pretences as had been adduced in support of tion of the land impossible, for as soon as it was culti-
this Bill. It was most unjust to deliver up the liberties vated the produce was seized for arrears of rate. Sup-
of Ireland to the despotic power of a few individuals. posing an estate had arrears of rate owing, to the
Its effect would be to place despotic power in the hands amount of 1,000/, that would be equivalent to a sen •
of the Lord. Lieutenant and the Secretary of the Home fence of perpetual barrenness, inasmuch as no person
Department, under whose control he acted. He con- would take the land subject to such a burden. There
tended that the people had a right to conduct a legal and were many estates in this condition. The lands were
peaceable agitation for the repeal of an obnoxious Act of in consequence uncultivated and thrown waste. What
Parliament, which was struck at in the letter of the Lord- excuse had they for paying these debts of bankrupt
Lieutenant. It was said indeed that the Government landlords out of the Consolidated Fund? These men
had not interfered with the meetings of the Repeal benefited by the sums advanced, and by enabling them
Association. They could not take credit for that as dis- to maintain their present position, they were nothing
playing moderation, because the sittings of that better than dogs iu the manger. It was only by gra-
assembly had been suspended before the passing of the dually ridding the country of these ruined proprietors of
Habeas Corpus Act. In 1817 the Marquis of Lans- the soil in the west of Ireland that any good could be
downe opposed the suspension of the Habeas Corpus done. What he asked for the British public and rate
Act, lest it might be brought into a precedent of evil payers was, that defaulting lands should be sold to pay
imitation in future times. He should like, when he came off the arrears ot rates due. To that they must come at
forward to support this measure, that some one should last; and until they did so every step they took would
ask him why be had changed his mind, and what was only increase the prevalent destitution and misery in
the difference of circumstances which influenced this Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He should then say a few
change of opinion. He thought they ought to allow the words on the second resolution, which was to the effect
addition of this clause to the Bill, to show, at least, that that the money should be expended so far as was possible
they were not disposed to shackle the right of the people upon productive labour of the able-bodied peon There
to petition against the repeal of an Act of Parliament. were 21 unions in a state of insolvency. He would take
He appealed to the representatives of Great Britain, be- Ballina and Westport as specimens. They had 9,000 able-
cause it would not effect what it was proposed to accom- bodied poor and a population of 38,000 men. These
plish. It was said it would be the means of introducing 9,000 paupers, in two unions alone, they were called upon
capital into Ireland, but he would tell them it would to support, and he would ask whether they should not be
have a contrary effect, and cause capital to leave that employed in productive labour? The relief works last
country. Neither would it put down agitation, which summer and the workshops in Paris would be thrown in
existed only through the grievances it suffered, which his teeth ; but they were failures simply because the
was now prostrate, and which this Bill would revive, paupers were employed in unproductive labour. When
They bad made their election. They determined to rule employed in useless works men would naturally be list-
Ireland by force, and they must pay for their own course. less and idle. But experience proved that, when pro-
It was not the policy of former Whigs the present Govern.. perly guided, neither in moral feeling nor industry were
meat were pursuing, but that of Nicholas, the despot of Irishmen deficient.—(Hear, hear.) Men revolted from
Russia, who fomented an insurrection in Poland in 1830, employment on penal and useless works. Irishmen did
in order to crush and utterly destroy the liberties of not want acuteness, and had, as well as Englishmen, a
the people of that country. A member of that Ministry keen perception of what was intended as sham work
was allowed to retain his situation, although he had from real work. As a proof that it was only necessary
during the recess been writing articles in his newspaper that the works should be 'really useful and productive
advocating the utter and permanent extinction of the works, he found that it was stated in another place last
berties of Ireland. That individual was the Secretary night, by the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colo-
of the Board of Control (Mr. Wilson), and proprietor of nies, that the convicts employed on the garrison
the Economist newspaper, and y et, though receiving the works at Gibraltar had earned 381. a head per an-
pay of his situation, he was allowed to continue his dis- num each, while the cost of their maintenance was not
graceful course without check or contradiction. The half that amount.
He asked then, why they could not
Hon. Member concluded by moving the addition of the provide profitable employment for their paupers as well
clause to the Bill. as their convicts ?—(Hear.) Let them adopt the ration.
Mr. O'FLAIIERTY seconded the motion. He did system in the one case as well as the other, instead of
not subscribe to all the violent expressions used by the shutting up the men in workhouses, and keeping them
Hon. Member who had just spoken, yet he felt a grievous and their families in idleness.—(Hear.) Even if it cost
at the expiration of that time,
injustice would be inflicted on Ireland by the passing of twice as much to keep them at work for a year or two,
this Bill. As an instance, he would mention that, when it would be the cheapest in the end. They would be
example of the
the town which he had the honour to represent (G dway) sure to reap a return
was proclaimed last summer, it so happened that the whereas by the present mode the whole was thrown
himself as inte intended by
the sweat
wPeraotvoi -f
judges of assize were in town, and, in charging the grand away. They oaght to imitate theed
jury, of which ho (Mr. O'Flaherty) was foreman, the Quakers in Mayo, who had_.emplwoy the people profit-
Learned Judge told them that the district was perfectly ably on 500 acres of lihanadi
quiet and peaceable.—(Hear.) He should give the dente that man should .
d d
consi ere that in these
measure every opposition in his power, though he felt his brow, and when they
that opposition would bo fruitless. twenty-one unions there were not less than 3,000,000
On the motion being put, maintain
acres of waste but cultivable land, which would form
Sir GEORGE GREY said, the question was, whether an ample field for the labour of the unem-
the clause proposed by the Hon. Member for Limerick ployed, he would ask, in the name of corn-
should be added to the Bill, and he did not, therefore, mon sense, why these people should not be set to work?
think it necessary to follow the Hon. Gentleman through These wastes were as capable of growing grain crops
-all the statements he had made. He should not detain and supporting stock as the wolds of Lincolnshire, or,
the House, but merely remind IlOn. Meinbers that, as on of other parts of England which were formerly waste,
two former occasions they had rejected a similar amend' but now converted into fertile land. Then again another
ment, and that as he was not aware of any new reasons point might be urged, namely, the moral effect of setting
being now given for its adoption, he felt certain the mo- the people to work in the manner he proposed. How
tion would be negatived. could they ever expect any material improvement in the
Mr. H. GRATTAN should again record his protest habits of the Irish people unless they accustomed them to
against the measure. But he saw no use in roloning continuous labour ? In that light alone the principle of
the discussion, the more so as it was al readdiscussedemployment was invaluable, and constituted
a rea y so reproductive
often. All he could say to his countrymen was, that he the only sound and lasting foundation for future improve-
hoped they would bear their sufferings with that philos meta. He would not further detain the House, but,
sophy which injured innocence was always sure to corn- thanking it for the attention with which it heard him,
wand. He hoped, however, that those individuals who would conclude by moving the amendment.
would be entitled to their liberty in March next might be Sir J. WALSH said the Hon. Member seemed on
set at liberty ; he believed eighteen of those who were this question to be totally impervious to the teaching of
now immured in prison, who had not been brought to experience.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Member had for
trial; or, indeed, against whom no specific charge was many years called for an efficient poor-law for Ireland;
adduced, and who were treated with a severity which and now when, mainly owing to his perseverence, an
ought to be discontinued. efficient poor-law had been enacted, which had totally
Mr. F. O'CONNOR believed, with the Right Hon. beggared a large portion of the country, and
Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- was likely in future to beggar more, the Honourable
()sent, that the question then before the House was the Member persisted in urging other theoretical notions with
same as that already discussed, and he should not, that obstinacy which characterised deluded enthusiasts,
therefore, detain them by any lengthened observ:ttiena. in the hope of carrying out some other part of their wild
He was not, perhaps, justified in saying to the Iri•ssti schemes.—(gear, hear.) With one part of the Hon.
Members who had now spoken in that House that they
Member's speech he could concur. The Hon. Member
had not acted as they ought to have done in Opposin-
g had i,:caied, with considerable effect, a rate in aid. He
that measure, but in 1833 and 1834, when he repro- (Sir J.l'Ve-t,, "
the Hon. Member lsh) must say that he was quite surprised at
rented an Irish county, a greater set of slaves never ex the clearneBll fit 's argument on this
.
6