The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

.going into them. Comparing the expences incurred in 1792
with those of .1822 for Foreign Ministers, there appeared an
increase of 150,0001. The salaries to the Ambassadors them-
selves, leaving out Their Secretaries, exceeded by 60,0001.
the total charge under the same head in 1792. Why should
this continue, pledged, as the House and the Ministers .were,
to adopt measures of economy ? He 'had yet to learn that
Shia country had greater consequence in Europe- than had
belonged to it in 1792. But now it should seem that we were
_too great to employ a charge d'afaires or resident. These
were not grand enough for the country now, though formerly
they were found most useful. The Noble Lord could hardly
Nape to convince the House that Italy required a more com-
plete diplomatic establishment now than was necessary in
179'2. This could, hardly be maintained now, when nearly, all
the minor cotiris 'were dependefit 6n• one or other of the great
Powers who were members. of the. quintuple alliance. Under
such til:CUMStiliCeS,Why should our ernbassies be more
expen-
sive *wen to persons of higher -Taal( than formerly ? The
salariasef our Ministers in .Italy„ in 1792, 'amounted-to 90001.
•Theiihipeounf. was at preseht 14,0091. • The torliole expellee in.
canal' for missions to Italy, including` the secretaries and
other' pendants; was ip 1792,.10;0001: -It - wae- now 17,0001.
Ile would now look to the expense-of *our Ambassador to the
United; Statei • of America. .. Under this head we had, in 1792,
a charle.tif '3,6701. Now the exnense.Of an Ambassador there
Vas 'The Sum paid :to the Ambassador yearly was
,0001.:avhich'exceeded by 5001. the salary of the President of
the United Statesh:O(llears hear !).—The only pretence he had
ever tice:rd" set2htpho justify the great expences incurred for
etrabatSadets was the necessity of keeping up a suitable des
a-zee of, splendor; but in a plain and simple Repnbliclike that
of the nited States of America, what necessity could exist for
tnenrrilag, an expense like that of the President? It might be
said in answer to what he had remarked orrthis increase of
150,0001. on, account -of Ambassadors since 1792, that we had
new. Atinbassadoes at a'uscany and other places where we
had no Ministers then. But it was also to be remembered
thaet we had Ministers at Venice, and in Poland, -(before
that country was divided by Russia, Prussia, and Austria,)
and, in 1794, an Ambassador at Genoa, at none of ' which
theces representatives of this country were nowanaintained.—
Looking at the alterations which he had pointed out, it was:im-
pose:hie not to. suppose that 'our situation in Europe was much
imp:deed ; that our means had increased.;.Shat our interests
were not sufficiently guarded in 1792 e that those who guarded
the= were not sufficiently paid ; or that our Foreign Ministers
aceeived too much now.. Ile was convinced that the present ex-
nenditure under this head might he reduced without injury
So' znyieitefest but that of the envoys or persons employed
-on Tacit missions. He. wished particularly to allude to the
,adiount of pensions now paid. -In a• Report of a Committee
in. 1812, was'stated the pensions then paid might be expected
h-oeld be reduced on the return of peace, as retired Ministers
77;uld then go oat again: Now what was the fact ? In 1815, the
%mount of pensions was 49,0001. e at present it wa5.51,01. ;
and this; too, while there was an increase in the salaries
paid to Ambassadors who were now abroad. He, was willing
that all necessary splendour should be kept up, but he did not
think the reputation Of this country could be maintained hy the
magnificence of our Ambassadors abroad, when. every. post.
musthring fresh accounts of the distresses under which the
.people were suffering at home. In the whole list of our Am-
bassadors, there was not a single instance where an' increase
of income had not taken place. ..The allowance of some had
been doubled, and in other cases infinitely More had been given.
Our Ambassador at Russia, for instance, received about
four times what was formerly paid. A house was, besides, pro-
riled for the Ambassador, a sum was allowed for outfit, and
chaplains, secretaries, and messengers,—in short, every thing
'that could save him expence. They were saved from 'all loss.
• Their salaries were paid without any. reduction. They were se-
cured against any loss from the state Of the Exchanges, which
had sometimes been as much as 30'per cent. for or against this
country. But it was curious to observe, that though every pos-
sible care was taken that the Ambassadors should sustain no
doss if the exchanges were unfavourable, when the contrary was
the case, not a word was heard of any thing being saved from
their being, as they had now, for a considerable time, between
Shia country and France, in favour of this country. He, for one,
did not see that the allowances to our Ambassador in France
were necessary. It was said, that he had to entertain English
travellers, but he did not think the credit of this country raised
ty the number of dinners our Minister might give, when it was
known that these were to be paid for out of. taxes which it
might not be possible to collect another year. On account of
the allowance granted to the Ambassador to France, he suppo-
eed that of our Minister in Russia had been raised. He would
rather the contrary course had been taken, and the allowance
to our Ambassador in-France reduced to that of our Represen-
tative in Russia. Looking at the course pursued by the United
States of America, it was impossible not to hope, that before
long the Government of England would imitate the wise policy
and economical arrangements of that prosperous-country. lie
trusted that'he should, not be met by the argument which he
had lately heard advanced wherever measures of retrenchment
were proposed; he meant the neeetsity.of upholding the dignity
sod the influence of the Crown. Whene he looked at the vast
patronage which the Crown enjoyed in.. the Army, the Navy,
• india,.and the Colonies, he could not think, that in these times
of difficulty and distress, there was any just plea of such a na-
ture for keeping up useless offices and useless expenditure.
Ke 'should be glad if this argument were urged, because of
lac, upon the motion of a Noble Lord, it bad been treated as
j deserved. He hoped that if it were now urged, the House
would again whew its sense of its'unconstitutional nature: The
Hon. Member concluded by stihmitting the following motion
to the House :—" That a Select Committee be appointed .to
take into consideration the expenditure of, the third class of the
Civil List, and to report their opinion whether any, or what
'easing of expence might be effected in that class, with a view
' thet such saving might be carried to the account of the Conso-
lidated Fund, according to the provisions of the Act of the 56th
cf Geta
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as he meant'
to Meet the proposition of the ,Honourable Member with a di-
rect negative, he would, as shortly as he could, endeavour to
pat the House 'in possession of the view which he took- of the
question, and of the reasons why he thought the House would
concur with him in voting that negative. :The. Honourable
Gentleman had suffered himself to indulge in remarking upon
ti:e whole of the Civil List expenditure, although he proposed
to eenfine himself to this particular branch of the third class.
SAriell he had seemed to take it for gran:ed, as a thing admit-
ted by that (the Noble Marquis's) aide- of the House, that
fhere was a general want of economy, in the administration
et -the Civil List expenditure. , Now he should not follow
-the Honourable Member in his remarks upon this subject, nor
:sheen he have referred to theiii at all, if he had not assumed
this point. But, the Hon. Gentleman having thought proper
to do so, be must claim the liberty of laying'his unqualified (Ilse
seet from the proposition. The Civil Expenditure was, on the
chateary, administered with every attention to real and useful
economy in all its branches, and for this he should be prepared
to ramtead whenever called upon to do so in a regular manner.
The Hoe. Gentleman had also alluded to the graeious.act of his
Majesty in the early part of the-Session when his Majesty was
plessed to make a donation in' relief d the difficulties of the
comity. Btit if he suppoied that that sacrifice did not place the
Idministration of the Civil List under considerable restric-
tiete, and enforcements of economy, and that it did not se-
date the scale of 'living in the Royal establishments below that
oplenetounin which the House generally wished to see the
ireorn placed, lie was as much deceived as when he took it for.
granted that there was an admission on both sides of the Muse
of a want of economy in the general administration of the
- List. But as the. motion of the lion. Gentleman was
ctieefined to the third class of the Civil List, he would also con-
fine himself to the matter which came under that head. The
Am. Gentleman had taken- a distinction between this third.
class and the other branches of the Civil List, and he was wil-
, Bog to admit that there was a distinction. And he Should
heet economize the time of the House by calling its attention
to the situation of the whole Civil List expenditure since the
... .4-era:act made with the Crown upon that subject. The Noble
litarqnis then explained the nature of the contract, and the
moron, why certain heads of. the , expenditure bad not come,
within the arrangements. If they compared a series of years
of the last reign with an equal time when the duties to the Crown
were paid, he did not mean the regular duties only, but certain
heteditary duties which were claimed of right, it would be
found that the' bargain had been most advantageous to the
public, and that several millions more had been paid on Ele-
ment of these than upon all the debts of the Civil List in the
period since the contract was formed. By the . new system
under which the expenditure was placed, every thing came
before them by• Estimates, and thus Parliament exercised its,
- control upon all the hails of expense. The same principle
was observed with regard to the third class. There were five
heads of the Foreign Civil List, but three of them only came
within theemotion of the Hon. Gentleman. The-pensions of
Foreign Ministers, the sums paid to Consuls, and the salaries
of .Foreigia Ministers. It was always left to the Crown to
detarasino what.cinotint of pensions should be given according
to rue inmortance of missions; and what degree of rank, as
:wllets what numbers of missions should be appointed—(Hear
- from the .Opposition, returned from the other bide.)--He would
• sak if -they were to bear the novel doctrine that Parliament
was to be mede acquainted with all the foreign policy' of the
GOverninelit ?—(Cheers.}-alf..so they wotild undertake the
WllOl3 functions of the... Executive. If they expected that the Se-
cretary of State for .koreign .Affairs was to come there to an-
siveernpy.questions. that might be put to him, he had a very dif-
lento-St-opinion upon the matter. He thought it neither consist-
ent W:1 the duty nor the oath of a Secretary of State to corn-
ultinicate any tiring upon the subject cf our foreign policy
witlsel.l the sanction and :orders of his Maiesty.—(Hear
Lear theta was the Hon. Gentleman's Com-

mittee up stairs to do any thing without a Secretary to answer
their questions? And he certainly did not think that his Ma-
jesty was likely to ' send his Secretary of State up stairs to the
Hon. Gentleman for that Rrpose.—(Hear, hear ! and &laugh.)
—lie would say, that it this unconstitutional method of
proceeding were to be adopted, they had better give up all their
missions upon the Continent altogether. If they were to have
a Committee to undertake the Executive this year, they should
have a Committee of Public Safety in the next.--(Cheers !)
' —He could not but see in -the manner in which questions
had been brought forward of late, a disposition to prepare
the country for such scenes. When they were told to look
to America for the example- upon. which our establishments
were to be uniintained, lie must protest against any -such.
policy while this country remained under the government of
a Monarch. Ile must repeat that these doctrines seemed only
calculated to prepare the moral feelings and the political sen-
timents of the people „fonionin-Other asropositions.and changes
which were.now kept out of view.—(Cheering.)L-Because the
country was now suffering under temporary and partial dis-
treas.; they innsf, forsooth, send out their missions to all the
Courts of Ehrope in forma paurris, and give up all that
consideration of weight and character, which was so intimately
connected with the ancient _Monarchy of the country.—(Loud
l'eheeringe)—He was quite satisfied that our foreign missions and
. external policy could not go on a day under the existence of
such a Committee as the lion. Gentleman.would have appoint-
ed. •He was quite willing that this class of expenditure should
be held to the necessary economy belonging to the times;. he
should he sor.• that the Civil List' was not subject to that in-
whic,
,Ne
•vestigation was fair to the country. Ile was satisfied he
could chew that et ry attention had been paid to reduction in
this department. 11-ie Hon. Member said, that if they looked
into the expenditure of the class which his motion embraced,.
they would find that it had always increased and never reduced.
Now, if the Hon. Gentleman bad
.paid much attention to the
subject, he would have found that not to be the case. lie would
shew that reductions had taken place not once, nor twice, but
in several instances. And these reductions, he was convinced,
Would, induce Parliament .to continue the confidence which
they7had hitherto reposed in the GovernMent upon these mat-
ter-S.- - He would' proceed to examine the three heads of ex-
pence which the- motion embraced, and shew what reductions
had'been made upon them. These three were the pensions
of Foreign Ministers, Consular Fees, and the Ministers' Sala-
ries and house-rent. The pensions had amounted at one time
to 56,0001., whereas they were. afterwards reduced to 53,1831._
The last war was a war sui. generis—it was unlike all others in
its extent and duration. It lasted twenty years, and many
Ministers were necessarily to :be employed when it broke out.
Though he did not like to have names brought forward, yet he
was not afraid that the list then upon the table should be ex-
amined, for lie was convinced that it would exculpate the Go-
vernment from any charge of malversation in the apPoint-
ments. He should say nothing of the Consular Fees, as they
were at this moment under the consideration of the Board of
Trade. ' The 'Noble Marquis then referred to a Report of
a Committee upon the- Civil List Expenditure, and shewed
that under Most of the heads there was a considerable salt-
ing from the estimates of that Committee. There was no
reduction :Upon the PenSion List, because the Pensions
were held by Act of Parliament for the lives of
.the Persons.
The Government could not therefore interfere with them.—
Upon , the ether . heads great savings were effected. The
Extraordinaries were taken by the Committee at 50,0001.,
and they had been reduced to 27,9001. Thus there was
a saving of 23,0001. upon the head of Extraordinaries. In
every year, since estimates had - been made out, they had
worked under them. But he knew it might be said, whyshould
there be 27,0001. paid for the Extraordinaries now, when in 1792
there was only 60001.? This had occurred to Wm, and he ltad
looked at the subject, in order to see if there were not some other
allowances made at that time under a different description. He
had not been able to ascertain this, but he found that the great
increase of business, and the manner in which the business was
performed at that time, would account for the difference. He
then proceeded to show how the 27,0001. for Extraordinaries
was expended. The fees amounted to 7;8001., and the Post-
office charges to 7,8001. For Couriers 2,2001. was paid.—
There were couriers employed under any extraordinary circum-
stances, when the regular messengers were.employed in other
duties. - About 3001. was expended at the 'Porte for paying
the Dragomen and others connected with the interpretations.—
There was 20001. allowed for the journeys of Ministers, and
5001. for extra journeys. This,:with3oooL for Chaplains and
Secretaries, amounted to about 26,0001. out of the 27,0001.—
Upon the Consular allowances there was also a savino. of
'lO,OOOl. from the Estimates of 1815. It was fixed at 40,0001.;
but they were now only paid 30,0001. There was a saving
upon this whole of 64;n001.. And it was upon these services
that the Honourable Member said they
„never reduced, but
always increased. He was convinced that the House would
require of the Honourable MeMber a better case before
he would induce thein to violate the contract which had
.been made with the Crown, by consenting to this motion.
—With regard to- himself, as far as he was personally in-
volved in the question, he would say, that if he could not be
trusted with the management of the funds of his office -with-
out suspicion of abuse, the sooner ' another was found
to succeed him- the better: lie could assure the Hon. Gentle-
man • that he was not going to put himself into-the leading
strings of a Committee above stairs.--(llear, bear, bear !)
And as he should never have the honour of explaining himself
to-the-lion. Gentlemen above stairs, neither should he do so
there, any farther than he deemed consistent with hi's Parlia-
mentary duty. With respect to the number of missions now
kept up, the Hon. Member could not complain upon that
ground, for they were scarcely more numerous than in the years
1792 and 1793. At. that time there -.were Ambassadors, that
being the first class of Foreign Ministers, -at France, Spain,
Holland, and Constantinople. In 1812, there were Ambassa-
dors at France, not at Spain, at Constantinople, Russia, and
Austria.. Had no new features arisen in tne history of the
times which warranted the alterations ? Had Russia not so
far increased in political importance as to require an Ambas-
sador at the Court of St. Petersburgh ? ' That Court and the
Court of Vienna were also entitled to their-respect and attention
-from the part they had taken in the affairs of Europe. The
situation in which they stood as members of the quintuple
Alliance—(Hear, hear ! from Sir J. Mackintosh)—the Hon.
•Member might say " hear," but although he (the Noble Mare
quis) did not mean to speak in terms of peculiar admiration
of the Holy Alliance, he thought the House would take the
Honourable Member's criticism upon it cam grand sails be-
cause his doctrines were tinctured as strongly with what he
would call the anti-Holy Alliance, as other doctrines might
be with a different character.—( Hear ! and laughter.)—There
were nine Courts at which Ministers of the second de-
scription resided. Among these was America, where every one
would see the reciprocal advantage, to the interests of the two
nations, of keeping up those sentiments of amity and friend-
ship which now so happily existed. The other Courts were
those of Prussia, Portugal, the Two Sicilies, Sweden, Bavaria,
Sardinia, Wirtemberg, and Saxony. He would now •come to
the difference of expense of which the Hon. Member had com-
plained. He stated that there had been upon the whole an
increase of .150,0001., and that 60,0001. of this was upon the
salaries of Foreign Ministers. There was an error into which
the Hon. Gentleman had naturally fallen with regard to this
last sum.. It Was 50,0001. instead of 60,0001., - because 10,0001.
.was expended in another service, although it was placed with
the salaries. The 50,0001. was the sum upon which they were
to contend, and he would now piticeed to shew how it was dis-
tributed over the different classes of Ministers. The expence of
, the six higher missions was at-present 74,0001. In 1793, it was
-SO,OOOl. making an increase of about 4,0001. to each Minister.
At present the expenditure for the nine ministers waS-32,8501.
In 1793, adding the 4,0001. for the Wirtemberg Minister since
appointed, it would have been 29,0001. only leaving an increase
of about 3,0001. -With regard to Tuscany, taking all circum-
stances into consideration', . the expence there was less th'ar. in.
1793: The Hon. Member-seemed to consider a Minister at this
Couri to be useless;; but he could tell him that almost all the
countries -of the world had their representatives there. Even
'Spain and POrtugal sent their ministers. ' The reason why this
was done, might be found in the position of Tuscany. It was
the connecting point -between Italy and Germany, and it was
therefore one of the first importance. He now came to Swit-
zerland, which subject, he could assure the Honourable Gen-
tlemen opposite, he shonlll be ready to meet to-morrow even-
ing with very little alarm. They would find- this topic as Il-
lusory as many others by which they had- been deceived upon'
other occasions. With respect to what the lion. Gentleman
had said of the unimportance of Switzerland, the whole policy
of this Government at all times denied his doctrine. We had
• respected Switzerland from a moral feeling as well as from a
political one, for we had always admired that innocent and
brave people—(Hear, hear !)---for their conduct upon all trying
occasions: They had resisted all attacks upon their country, and
particularly that of France, with exemplary determination, but
independently of this moral obligation, it had always been the
policy of this country to send a representative to the Swiss Can-
tons. In no period excepting that portion of the war when the
country was threatened with occupation by the French, had
we neglected to send a Minister Plenipotentiary there. There
was at one time, he believed, an unfortunate Gentleman
named Braun, who was sent to Switzerland as Minister with
only 2501. a year;. hut that was only in consequence of some,
irregularity in his conduct,- end the sending him there was an
act of forbearance. To give up the practice of' sending a pro-
per Mithater to that country,- would be to abandon the whole
stream of our policy towards it. •It was the key-stone, or the
bond, whiclibeld all the surrounding countries together, and was
consequently a position of the very highest importance. It had
been considered in this point of view by all the Powers at the
Congress of Vienna, and. it was there determined that its strength
should be upheld and consolidated. -The present accredited
Minister from, the Court of Russia at the Swiss Cantons was

the Prince CapO d'lstria, and France had recently been re-
presented by a nephew of Prince Talleyrand. Let not Hon.
Gentlemen talk of business upon such questions as these; the
policy of the country ought to be consulted ; and such consi-
derations es that left out of view altogether. He must
pretest against Europe being, governed, and its affairs ma-
naged upon such petty principles as these. Honourable
Gentlemen seemed to think that the situations in question
should be put up to auction, and sold to the best bidder, or
to any one who would go abroad for the' least money.—
(Hear, hear, hear!)—It was then insinuated, for some party
purposes, that the situation had been created for ,the individual
who was appointed mit. Ile. could state to the House, fermi
documents, if necessary, but he thought they would take his
word upon such a matter, that when Mr. Stratford Canning,
who held the appointment before, had his audience of the King
upon his return, his Majesty stated expressly, that another
Minister Plenipotentiary, would be appointed to the Cantons.
Ile dared say the Hon. Gentleman who Wished for the whole
foreign policy -to be laid open before his Committee would
like to hear all the anecdotes about this affair ; and indeed he
could indulge his appetite upon: this occasion, only he feared
it would increase on what it fed upon.—(A laugh)—When
Mr. Lesborough went out as Charge d'Affaires, it was stated in
the body of his credentials that he held the office ad interim, until
a Minister should be sent out as before! This he feared would
quite destroy the beautiful illusion of Hon. Gentlemen for
to-morrow night. With regard to salary, it would be the same
now as that which Mr. Stratford Canning received, with the
exception that it partook of the general reduction of ten per
cent. which had just been made. He was aware that in say-
ing all this now, he was giving it to the benefit of the Hon.
Gentleman who intended to bring forward the motion to-mor-
row*night. But he had nothing else to say upon it, and he was
at a loss to know what the lion. Gentleman could say at all.,
Howeverehe was now putting his own brief into his hands. In
appointing Mr. Wynne the Government considered his station,
his rank, and family connections, and thereby paid a compli-
ment- to the SV.tis's Cantons. With regard to their chusing a
person who had a pension, that was an advantage, because there
would be its amount, as well as the ten per cent. to come
off the three thousand nine hundred pounds. Therefore, al-
though they should' -not bring it down to Mr. Braun's
2501. a year, yet the expense would be considerably lessaned.—
He would next proceed to state the grounds of the increase in
the allowance since 1792. It must be borne' in mind that the
. Extraordinaries had been reduced to a great amount, and the
salaries were increased in consequence by the consent of most
' Gentlemen opposite. Since 1792 the expenses of living had
increased above two-fold, The expense of living at all foreign
capitals had been raised to a most inconvenient degree by the
extravagant habitq of the people of this country who visited
them. And the numbers were so great, that the populations
in some places had almost become English. -In Brussels alone
it was calculated that-there were 112,000 persons of this country
residing. But the Hon. Gentleman, whom he might call their
modern stoic, was of opinion, that under all these circum-
stanceS, we should have an Ambrssador at Paris who would
touch his hat to-an Englishman, and that was enough. If our
Ministers abroad were to be placed upon such a footing, they
would be so reviled by their countrymen, that they would
be wholly disqualified for performing the duties with which
they were charged. There was another advantage under the
present regulation, over that which existed before. Formerly,
when an Ambassador or a Minister Plenipotentiary was ab-
sent from the place of his duty, he still continued to receive
his salary. But now he must sacrifice half of it to pay the
Charge d'Affsires or the Secretary of Legation, who performed
his duties.. One great advantage arising from it was, that we
always kept an efficient representation at, the different Courts,
and our interests consequently never suffered. He-could say,
that in no period of our history had we possessed so much
and such beneficial interest upon the Continent as we do
at this moment. And this was necessary to keep up our ami-
cable relations with the various Powers, and to make the
existing peace lasting and secure. To maintain this, it was
necessary to have Ministers not only at the great Courts,
but at those little States which the Honourable Gentleman
seemed disposed to treat so very cavalierly. The business
at these Courts had increased tenfold, owing to the free
, intercourse which, existed between the different Cabinets
and their representatives. The Noble Marquis then com-
plimented the diplomatists of the day, and said lie might be
partial from the gratitude he felt for the kindnesses shewn to
Inns, but he believed the country had never possessed so much
diplomatic talent as at the present time. In-the offices of 'the
various Ambassadors there were, he believed, no less than
twenty-one young men of rank, education, and talent, who were
serving without fee or reward. They were improVing the)n-
selves, and qualifying themselves, for the more eminent du-
ties ; and all that they received in return was the priVilege of
living in the AmbaSsador's house. This occasioned a great in-
creased charge to the several Ambassadors ; but he trusted the
House would not think that this was a waste of the public
money, especially as it was to be borne in mind that the secrets
of the offices were of the most important nature, and could not
be safely entrusted to any but those who, from their situation
in society, were likely to prove deserving of their confidence.—
He now came to a part of the subject upon which he should
touch with considerable reluctance, as, it was in some measure
of a personal character.- Ile would gladly have avoided it, but
slander had gone abroad, and he found it necessary to rescue
the public Service from the charges which had been so in-
dustriously preferred against it. He confidently stated that
the persons in this class were holders of long situations, and
that even the reductions already intended Would considerably
embarrass the service. At best it was but honourable banish-
ment, and justice would not be done to the native talent of
the country if it were not liberally encouraged. He had the
authority of several Ambassadors on this point; in particular
of those to Petersburgh, the Netherlands, and Spain. Some
of these were now out of office, and even if their honourable
testimony could be doubted in any case, it would be free from
all remark by the circumstance he had mentioned. The Am-
bassador at the Court of Petersburgh, when he was apprized of
the proposed reduction of ten per cent. had declared that he
knew not how to modify his expenses to meet this reduction,'
and instanced as a part of the frightful expense (as he termed
it) to which he was put, that he had to pay no less than 1,5001.
a year for house-rent. This gentleman had been selected for the
office on account of his former success in diplomacy. and partly
because he was personally acceptable to the Emperor. He was
a gentleman of birth and character, but with limited means, as
he was a younger brother of a noble family ; and he (the Mar-
quis) would put it to the House whether such a public servant
as this should be reduced. Lord Cathcart anti Lord Clancarty
ware men of sober and famed character, and not likely to incur
wanton and unnecessary expense ; and yet the former had de-
clared that he had, while he filled the office of Ambassador,
expended as much out of his private fortune as would, if
laid out upon a life annuity, purchase him one of 2,0001.—
Lord Clancarty had expended 16,0001. in the first year of his
appointment, and thirteen thousand pounds in each year after-
wards ; so that even the appointment to the Netherlands was
not a lucrative one. In Spain, Sir Henry 'Wellesley stated
that he had expended 70001. in the last year of his appoint-
ment. • Accounts 'similar in their nature had been received
from Sir William A'Court and the other Ambassadors ; and
the line had been drawn as fairly as poSsible, 'so as just to save
the Ambassadors from ruin in their private fortunes. Ame-
rica had been alluded to, and reference had been made to the
salary of the President, because it was but 60001. a year, and
it was thence attempted to be inferred that Mr. Canning, the
present Minister there, was in a situation of emolument ; but
the mission to that country - was as expensive as that 'of
any other • and he had been assured by Mr. Begot, the late
Ambassador, that it was only by the most rigid economy that
he could keep within the amount of his appointments. At
Naples the Ambassador had to pay no less than 8501. a year
for house rent; and yet 0001. a year had been taken from
the allowances by
.the late reductions. lie really could not
conceal the astonishment 'Tie felt at the republic stoicism
with which the Hon. Gentlemen opposite suggested measures
professedly of economy, but which in their effects would be
ruinous to the public service,_ and degrading to the Crown.
He trusted he had shown the House that this third class was re-
gulated by an economical spirit, and if the House thought pro-
per to continue its confidence in Ministers, they would gon-
dime to exert themselves in that economical spirit. ..'gut he
begged to impress upon the House, that the chief value of the
influence of this country was, that it was a -pacific influence;
and -that it must be our object to preserve a peace, which we
had so assiduously and honourably acquired. We were in
possession of the good will of all ' the European Powers, and
possessed an influence greater than that it had ever possessed
before. This influence was retained, if not acquired, by the
high-minded character of our Foreign Ministers. It arould be
impossible to keep this influence, if those Ministers were
compelled to slink into corners of the towns in which they
resided. Their houses, he thought, should be the resort of
those who gave dignity to their establishments. Those -who
entered their houses with fair and honest views should be
welcomed ; but those perturbed spirits who wished to disturb
the peace of the world, deserved to be reprobated and discou-
raged. Ile was well persuaded that the minds of Englishmen
were too enlarged and elevated to grovel in the manner that
was suggested to them ; and that they would blush to be told
that the Representatives of the Throne appeared in any other
character than that which became so great a nation. For his
own part, he declared, that so long as the Government of this
country - was monarchical, and 'so long as the splendour and
dignity of the Crown were (as he believed 'they were) essential
to the liberties of the people, he never would be a -party to the
depriving of this country of the fair influence which resulted
front that form of Government and that dignity and splen-
dour. These were to be preserved by the upholding of our
diplomatic relations, which were the best safeguards of our
foreign interests. With respect to the issue of the present

motion, he would say, that if Government generally, and
in particular if the humble individual entrusted with the Fo-
reign Department, had lost the confidence of Parliament,
and if a Committee of that House should take into its hands
a power which would in effect be controuling that depart-
ment, he thought it almost unnecessary to say to the House
that he should consider himself degraded to the dust, and
asharrie::: to show his face in the world, if he consented to
be the puppet of such a system. He trusted, however, that the
Administration still retained the .conlitlence of that House ; but
in all events, he assured theme that Aless they had confidenne
in the administration of foreign affairs, they would undertake
an unsafe and responsiblelask, lay tritrusting-the management
of those affairs to a Committee: lie had no doubt that many.
Honourable Gentlemen opposite would be found willing to un-
dertake the foreign department, and to superintend its finan-
cial arrangements. If the House thought good, let this be
done; but he confidently hoped they would not disfigure . the
Constitution by putting into the- power of a CoMmittee the
means of calling for disclosures affecting our foreign policy,
which would, in its consequences, exclude us from the infor-
mation, and destroy the influence which we at present pos-
sessed. The' Noble Marquis then declared his intention of
meeting the motion by a decided negative ; and sat down amid
cheering as loud and universal as any that we ever heard
within the walls of the House.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said he would have given a
silent vote on the present motion, had the debate taken that
course which was to be expected from the clear and temperate
statement of his Honourable Friend who opened it. But
it seemed that the Noble Marquis charged his Honourable
Friend with a desire to make the country grovel in the
way of foreign expenditure—a charge which was one only
of those monstrous constitutional novelties that were so fa-
miliar to the ears of the Members of that House. To ask
for an inquiry into a particular branch of the public expen-
diture was, it appeared, to usurp the power of the Execu-
tive ; and the house of Commons were recommended to avoid
the danger of a resignation of his Majesty's Ministers.—
This was the vltiina ratio. This threat of resignation was in-'
tended to carry alarm among those who generally voted with
the Noble Marquis. The threat itself had been so frequently
held out, that it was now a matter of laughter in every club-
house in London. Sometimes it had been whispered, some
times mentioned equivocally; so as to leave room for a re-
treat ;
,but that night it had been boldly spoken out in language
of pretended confidence, but of real apprehension. The
English House of Commons had performed acts of greater
magnitude and importance than those of any other assembly,
had changed the established religion of the country, deposed
an illustrious family, had hurled the most powerful Minis
ters from their seats, and sent them to the block ,e but now ,
that House was so reduced, that it was threatened with the
loss, the resignation of a Minista, if it ventured to think for
itself. This was a situation in which the most daring libeller
had never before dared- to describe that House. So distinct
and unequivocal a declaration never would have been made
by the Noble Marquis had lie not felt assured that he
would be deserted by many of those who generally support-
ed him. The Noble Marquis was evidently playing a deep
game—a high stake—and he (Sir James) really doubted whe-
ther the House would endure the language which had been ut-
tered by the Noble Marquis. The card which was played by
the Noble Marquis might be played once too often. The conse-
quence of a vote given under this threat would be, that the world
would believe the majority preferred the preservation of Mini-
, sters to the preservation of, their own consciences. This was the
character which the Noble Marquis had given to his majority
to carry down to their Constituents. The Noble MarquiS, for-
sooth ; the pacificator of Europe, and the associate of Empe-
i rors and Kings, would not submit to the leading strings of a
Committee of that House. This savoured of Russian and Prus-
sian maxims.—(Hear, hear!)—Yet this Cominittee would be
appointed, these leading strings put on by a majority of the
Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses of England in Parliament
assembled.—(Hear ! from the Opposition.)—The very being
of the House was engaged in • the present contest. The Noble
Marquis objected to a Committee of the House; yet all his
arguments had been founded' upon the Report of a Committee.
The inference from this was either that the Committee in
question had usurped a power which did not belong to them,
or tat that. which was constitutional in 1815 was highly
Unconstitutional in the year 1822. Pin another part of the
speech of the Noble Marquis, which was remarkable, prin-
cipally, for its common-place sneers against Members on his
(Sir James's) side of the House, he had talked of the influ-
ence which was possessed at present by this country over the
affairs of the Continent ; he had recounted the glories of the
Quintuple Alliance, ankhad charged Honourable Members on
that side with being Members of an Unholy Alliance. Yet had
the Noble Marquis in the course of the last year, in a celebrated
paper, actually reprobated the whole of the printiples of that
Alliance; so that the Members on that side were, at all events,
only feeble imitators of the Noble Marquis. In that'solemn
State Paper to which he alluded, the Noble Marquis had
charged that Holy Alliance with all the crimes which any
State could commit against the principles of justice or the
rights of mankind. Where, then, was the influence which had
been boasted of by the Noble Marquis? The Noble Marquis
in that Paper was either sincere or he was not; and it was
more courteous and more consistent with his own wishes to be-
lieve that he was sihcere than otherwise. In that State Paper
the Noble Marquis charged the Holy Alliance with injustice
and rapine ; and he (Sir James) defied any one to read that
Paper of 1821 and reconcile it with the influence which had
been mentioned by the Noble Marquis. But there were other
circumstances which considerations of a prudent nature pre-
vented his mentioning, for he, had no desire to state any thing
in that house which should have the effect of shortening the
peace. Were it not for this restraint- he would make out the
strongest case of a want of influence on the part of this country,
or else the grossest abuse of it. The Noble Marquis had, how-
ever, been at some pains to convince them that Switzerland
was not unimportant; and he (Sir James) admitted that there
were three good actions, which which been performed by the
Holy Alliance, and these were all for which he could give
them any credit. The first was the protection of the neutrality
of Switzerland ; the second, the abolition of the Slave 'Trade ;
and the third, the Equity of Religion. But he would see how
this neutrality of Switzerland was guaranteed in practice.—
That country had long been the rouge of the best and most
learned men, who had had the misfortune to be proscribed, and
whose only crime was too often to be found merely in their de-
feat. Several of this description had been demanded by the
Holy Alliance. to be.given up to them. Among these unhappy
men were several who had fled the dominions of the King of
Naples ; of him who had preferred being the, Viceroy of Au-
stria to being a limited King with a Constitutional Govern-
ment. Tile States of Switzerland, it was believed, connived
at their escape, for escape they did, from the grasp of
tyrants who had no , title but that, which they enjoyed
by the sword. These intended victims had escaped. Their
crime was,. the being daring enough to endeavour to gain
a Constitution for their country ; and yet they knew not where
to find an asylum. They dared not to venture in France or
the Netherlands; and if they turned towards England, once
the asylUm for the oppressed of all nations, they saw the Mi-
nister standing on the cliffs, with the dreaded Alien Bill in his
hang ready to deliver them up to their oppressors.—(tlear,
hear, from the Ministerial Benches.)—He really would ask his
Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Ser-
jeant Onslow), who sat with such complacency on the other
side of the House, and who by his cheers rather than by any
distinct articulation, appeared to intimate that he-had calcu-
lated the proper expence of foreign embassies; he would ask
(though the practice of his Hon. and Learned Friend at the
Bar probably prevented his giving much attention to the sub-
ject) whether he thought this country had any influence over
the councils of those .whom we called our allies ? He would
ask Whether his Honourable and Learned Friend approved of
the conduct hehad been describing. If he did, he (Sir James)
would be glad to hear the reasons for his approbation. If not,
' where again, he asked, was the influence which had been so
vauntingly alluded to by the Noble Marquis? The Noble Mar-
quis might say that he had nothing to do with that conduct;
but the Noble Marquis had expressly connected himself with
those acts by boasting of the influence which this country pos-
sessed over the Councils of those who had perforeited them. He
assured the House that nothing but the discUssion of our fo-
reign policy, which had been so fully gone into by the Noble
Marquis, would have induced him to touch at all upon the sub-
ject. The motion now before the House had been made at a
time of great distress and of impending ruin among one class
of the people of this country; and yet had the Noble Marquis
accused his Hon. Friend of stoical sternness. Ile talked of
stoical sternness ; but where was his own towards the suffer-
ings of the country ? The supporters of the motion admitted
the utility and dignity of the office of Ambassador, and the
necessity of increasing one and supporting the other. But the
Noble Marquis had made a parade of the expense of the great
embassies ; an expence which ought to be an additional rea-
son for watching that of the others. , If Ambassadors found
ii losing concern in the great ones, it became highly proper to
inquire whether a deduction might not be made from the
expense of the insignificant ones. Referring to the expense
of the American Embassy, the contempt expressed by the
Noble Marquis for these frugal Republicans was truly mo-
narchical ; but was this fit to be expressed in an English
House of Commons. He (Sir James) had no objection to place
his constitutional ideas against those of the Noble Marquis,
and to him he would cheerfully leave the credit which was
due to his argument, that the appointment of a Committee
in the, present case would be a complete usurpation
,of the
power of the Executive. But then, whenever inquiry was
called' for, the Noble Marquis instantly called for confidence:
—Confidence was continually the burthen of his song, though
it had been the opinion of .Mr.'Burke, that when there was
a petitioning people, there should be an addressing House

of Commons. The Noble Marquis expressed a sort of re-
gal contempt for the economical arrangements of that great
Republic which was extending itself by peaceful conquests,
and was spreading liberty over a larger tract than Monarchy
had ever .cursed. On this -subject much depended upon tone,
gesture, and glance ;—and, indeed, the tones, gestures, and
glances, of the Noble Marquis were often more intelligible"
than his words. He (Sir James) by no means undervalued the
diplomacy of England ; and he was happy to bear of 'the gra-
tuitous labours of the young Gentlemen alluded to by the
Noble Marquis ; but he should think most highly of that diplo-
macy if we were as well .represented by our Ambassadors as, -
America was by hers. The , Noble Marenia objeCted to ree
duction of expense. He was against bidding for offices, but if
the allowances were increased, he (Sir James) thought this ne-
cessarily increased the number of bidders, and opened a door
to corruption. Indeed he was surprised. the Noble Lord was
not aware that the increased value of a commodity rendered it •
more desirable, and was likely to increase the number and iii-
portunity of the applicants for its possession: On this subject
ti
he had net the slightest wish to make any improper reference
to recent 'arrangements, yet, he could not but say that it too
often happened that appointments-abroad were cheerfully
timid
for by services at home.—(A laugh, and cries of " Hear !' )
Mr. ROBINSON said he could easily believe that the Holl-
and Learned Gentleman had originally no intention to address
the House.; for 'although he had paid every attention to his
speech, he had heard nothing which at all applied to the
question before the Houge.;—(Cheers- from the Ministerial
Benches.)—Vehemence had with the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman supplied the place of argument ; and he had
gone into a detailed attack' upon Ministers, chiefly with
respect to parts of their conduct which had been sanc-
tioned by the House . and the country. He had called upon
the House to condemn the whole policy of our foreign affairs,
and had almost said that it was an-insult in his Noble Friend to
say that Ministers would bow to the decision of the House,
should it be against them.(—llear, hear.)—Was this, be asked',
unconstitutional langusge?—(Cheers.)--This surely waoorytaf
those ' novelties which had been so elaborately commented on
by the lion. and Learned Gentleman. This was the only part
of the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman which had
any reference to the present' question; it might be convenient-
to endeavour to raise a belief in the minds of many Membera
who had only lately entered the House, that his Noble Friend
had blinked the subject of the present motion; but he confi-
dently appealed to those who . had heard the statement of his
Noble Friend, whether any case in. that House had ever received
so full an explanation, or had made so strong an impression,
especially when it was contrasted with the meagre, unsatisfac-
tory, and inconclusive statement. upon which the motion had,
been founded.—( Hear, hear, from the OppOsition.)
Mr. CREEVEY having caught the Speaker's eye, although
he rose at the same time as .Mr. Tierney, for whom there wag
a very general 'call, proceeded to state his intention of de- e
taining the House with a very few sentencet indeed. What qty
the actual state of the case ? A motion was made for appo
ing a Committee to inquire -into certain heads of the expendi-
, tare ; and this Committee, if appointed, the Noble laird inforn-
eel them of his determinatuin not to attend. He conceived thig
to be a most daring declaration, only to be surpassed by the state-
ment of another Secretary of State, who had declared, that what-
ever Parliament might resolve, he would not advise the Crovi:l
to act in conformity with its resolution, or by that Ministe;
who had affirmed the impossibility of governing the Nouse • (,):
Commons without corruption. These, indeed, were novel t
ties : it was reserved for the present time to see Parliarnen
thus degraded and insulted by the Ministers of the Crown.--
Either the House ought to vindicate its character by an asset}
tion of its rights, or to adjourn at once, and no longer preen
to exercise functions that were the subject of ridicule and c°ll,l
tempt. It had been contended that the Committee moll
for would be an exetutive Committee—an usurpation of t
powers of Government, .and a disfigurement of the Me"
narchy. Yet the whole subject, as now arranged, had grcl;
out of the Report of a Committee in 1815, appointed on wti
recommendation of the, Noble _Lord himself, and which tile,
'prepared pensions for his Majesty'aMinisters, and for the
Lord amongst others. It was said, that no case wa.cmade 00
to justify a motion' of this nafure, although, whilst distress P:
veiled all over England, and a famine was raging in Irelann.
•
Lord Stewart and Lord- Burghersh -were residing in Loot;
with the salaries and appointments of foreign Ministers.
could not, for his own part, conceive a stronger case, oni.
grosser insult on that House than to call such a Conunittecioie
was contemplated by the present motion a disfigurement of
monarchy of England.
Mr. TIERNEY said he would not touch upon those oeB,
tions of general policy which had been so unnecessarily
duced into the debate by the Noble Marquis, and so triuinfot
antly answered by his Hon. and Learned Friend. The preS
was a subject which was at all times important; but el;
dally so at the present. The motion, he thought, was tobr
perately concluded, and had been most temperately brole
forward, calling for an inquiry witha view to a saving in ye
public expenditure if possible. It should, therefore, not '—jfi
been met as it hall by the Noble Marquis. The sallittie
question was not so much the object ; but the fact was that of
Administration felt sore, and had come to a . determination,
what was called making a stand ; and a Meeting, tie
stood, had actually been held for that purpose. The Hon. 6%,
tleman (Mr. Robinson) had said, it was perfectly cons f
tutional for Ministers to resign if they lost , the confidencti°t.
the House of Commons. There was no doubt at all about
thii
—(A laugh.)—But if .Ministers said, you who vote for •
or that question will be voting for our dismissal, this Rhe;'cvoi,7s::'
was telling them that they. would be marked ;- and
dozed that it would be no answer for a Gentleman to satot
his Constituents, who asked him what public saving lie
but
voted for, that truly he had not given any vote for tha tcrble
he had prevented the resignation. of Ministers. The hat
Marquis had relied much upon the Committee of 1315 ;adee,
that was a Committee which 'rejected evidence, and 63 the
its calculations entirely upon an estimate produced IV, the
Noble Marquis himself. 'I he House had been reminded ,n'that
30,0001. given up from the Civil List, and had been OW Se
his Majesty's comforts would be abridged in consequen.C.Ael.
Mr. T. wished that the communication as to that 30,
tiou
beep made by Message, as he would be happy to move al:age ;
dress of Thanks to his Majesty for that most gracious )ley there.
but as for the abridgement of comforts, he didnot think
;tired
was a syllable 'ortruth in the matter.—(A laugh.)—lie
the Noble Marquis he spoke only in a Parliamentary se—edg
There was a difference of. at least 15 per cent. in trades,ts%ete
bills ; and these he thought worthy of notice, though the,; de'Marquis, on a former occasion, had called them disgusti-tets•
tails. There Was also a material difference in all estaloliehtn-;oe•
The sending a Minister to the Swiss Cantons was really atsbat
Could any one Suppose therc might not be a reduction is job,
En-tbassy ? The Noble Lord had, to prove it was not • ~,semi,semi
stated that Capo WI-Stria was there, and the Noble LOrd)liefiio
Prince Talleyrand had sent his nephew.—(A
was, there never had been a worse job ; and if all the 001
in Europe were to swear it was not a job, he cold gel
them. Taking all the details of the Estimates, 3,n( he
i.
through them step b 7 step, would fatiguethe House; L'e"he
only[say he had no aesire to under-pay public servant, pails
not wish, at the same time, to see persons extravaganwoent
The question was, whether they had more diplomatic e
than necessary, or whether they paid more than neces.seaceati*,
The Noble Lord objected to inquiry in a Committee, le sett;
he could not be well examined after taking his gteNoo*
oath ; but was there no information to be obtained in the; wcr,,,
Lord's office ? The Noble Lord said, Foreign Ministefte
spelt
under-paid, but that had been the complaint of diplomaforlo,.
time out of mind. Increased pensions was a renietlY
disease, and surely a Committee might well consider 'vra
the scale of pensions was not too large. The Noble Vt peris'•
the money voted for Foreign Ambassadors was spent. 3 Mari
Vienna, and other places. It was generally known that t rgr
sum was spent in Paris; no Englishman who had been on fine
could say the hospitality of Sir Charles Stewart was c ti-s
If hospitality mild add dignity to diplomaey, it existe`ieas
-
fullest extent ; but in his view, Sir Charles Stewart with
bound to feed every Englishman that called upon hint osc/
good appetite ; that certainly could answer no moral pt-urscatce:
(A laugh.)—At Petersburgh, where 'Englishmen were 0r1a,,,"
, Sir C. Bagot could not have much to pity. He, rnight,
give 101. to get an Englishman occasionally to dine 41.Foreitii,
Ile could not think, however, that the extraveaance ee Le,
Ministers could contribute to the influence ot°Englon,e, jet 0,,c
Continent. The influence of the British Government
pend on the measures adopted at home. 'lf expense A 50,i'vvo
saved, they ought to look to it. Ife was persuade", loi,teci
might be savedannually if the House would go into "ail end
and make inquiry ; - but :he Noble Lord said the met- "o/ei
must be kept up. The Noble Lord might induce othe
r-10.13.00.
to reduce their scale of diplomatic expenses, aed anY Ponientio
reduction in England, would square with foreign arrnenetielli of
He wished to go into Committee because it would
evalle,„e
country. The Noble Lord said he had no. fear for the 'bet l':11
the debate to-morrow ; the result might then be Itil°l:'d ;lot .°
of
Noble Lord did not know it four days ago. lie "`„,e oet,
to turn out Ministers ; no man cared less about the.'
should he think cf it, unless for the good of the coiLlll,r.'o,o lye
opinion was, thee would not go out.--(A laugh.) ..,„tia fro
curious to see 'Lord Liverpool resign,—and there faces vit
something irresistibly comical in the Chancellors , 1,0
resignation.—(Laughter.).-He could, however, feu etittio
would be. The country Gentlemen would be , of De
their counties if they voted against -the prop
and )1e te,
Noble Lord. It' was a thy. question of economy, " etion 09,
lieved he should
.be in a maeority,.as he was on theifi% to Sere,
specting the Postmaster. That result, he was
was hard on Lord Salisbury, Who was turned' out vittibe
mony, but the moment the Swiss Embassy was lecn,ukio
tole'
discussion, Ministers-were alarmed, and they
I_, 0.0 o
obLigtotit ciof
if that question was carried against them they 11 'ls'