The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

big towards tho objects of the proposed reductions.--(Hear,
hear !)---He concluded by moving a resolution, entbodyinie the
plan opened in his speech as the basis of a Bill to be brought in.
Mr. BANKES had listened to the greater part of the
speech of his Right Honourable Friend with much satisfac-
tion, and especially to the statement which be bad made of
the donation made to his subjects by the King. He thought
the House ought to feel lunch gratitude fat the gracious
manner in which the King bad thus come froward to contri-
bute to those savings which nyglit afford the public some re-
lief. With respect to some of the details of the plan, he was
not sure that they would meet with his support. When so
many of the salaries of public officers had been augmented
within the last few years, on account of the depreciation of
money, it was hardly fair to leave them in possession of the,
incomes then given to them on that account, now that the
currency was restored to the original standard. It was hard-
ly fair to leave them in possession of the incomes so aug.
menteo, subjecting them merely to the per centage now pro-
posed to he deducted. To this he must very much demur, as
•it appeared to him unreasonable not to do more. He had
objected to some of these grants at the time they were made,
hut many loco:nes ought to be reduced as low as they were
twelve or fifteen years ago. He proceeded at sonic length to
criticise the scale of remuneration which had been adopted.
To biro it did not appear just that officers in the service of
the State should be exempted from those inconveniences to
which all other classes were exposed. He should like to see
laid before the Hot se an account of all salaries that had been
increased since 18!0, This dune, it might be proper to re-
duce them to what they were at that time, or to reduce part
of the incre. s., and give the remaining part of it to the Su-
perannuated Fund. A pretty general increase of salaries had
taken place between 1810 and 1815. With this increase it
might be proper so to deal, that if the Superannuation Fund
were kept up, the Government should be relieved front two-
thirds of the expense, instead of being only saved from half.
That which he suggested, he wished merely to apply to the
larger salaries. He would not go down to salaries below
tool. He wished to give the Right. Honourable Gentleman
every credit for what he had done. He had a difficult task to
perform. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) might be
right, and he (Mr. Moises) might be wrong, but he could
not help 'stating what had occurred to him on the subject.
If the motion before the House were now pressed, he should
feel obliged to give it a negative. He repeated that the lat-
ter part of the Right Honourable Gentleman's speech had
afforded him great pleasure, and he thought much gratitude
due to his Majcsty for the gracious manner in which lie had
come forward on this occasion, to surrender a portion of his
income for the public benefit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, nothing
was further from him than the wish that this measure should
be carried without previously undergoing the fullest discus.
sion. But the better course alight be to let the resolution
on which lie purposed to found a Bill pass, as he thought this
would be the more convenient mode of discussing the merits
of the plan. He had no wish but that it should be looked at
in all its bearings, as he would candidly confess it was his
hope that the more it was examined the more it would be
approved.
Mr. MARRYAT condemned the system of superannuation
which was now acted on in the various departments of the
state. It made no distinction between merit and no merit—
it made no difference between activity and no activity. The
man who was active or intelligent, and he who was stupid or
lazy, were placed on the same footing under the present sys•
tem. Of all the subjects connected with the Right Hon.
Gentleman's statement, the existing system of superannua-
tion was by far the most important. The improvements of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not remove his objections
to that system. The question came to this—whether the
plan of superannuation was wise and provident in the first
instance ? Whether. in point of fact, it was not so radically
bad as to call for its abolition altogether, instead of encou-
raging a hope that it could be improved ? In order to judge
of this question correctly, they ought to be in possession of
an account of all salaries granted to the civil servant* during
the last 9 years, since the passing of the 53d of the late King,
under which those allowances were made. That infocination
was wanted. There was a paper printed ou the 2d of July
last, containing 75 pages, which gave an account of the super-
annuation pensions, and the greater allowances connected
with the higher offices, in which document they were stated
at -228,0001. But that paper slid not, however, contain the
expense under three important heads, which had been printed
separately. The first of these, giving an account of the soper-
animations in the army in Ireland, was printed on the 30th of
December, 1821, and stated the amount at 89,0001. The
second gave an account of the superannuations in the colonies,
and was printed on the 7th of June last. Those superannua-
tions were stated to he 17,9521. 12s. Bd. The third account
was printed on the 15th of last mouth, and stated the super-
annuations in the Navy and Victualling-office to amount to
137,0001., snaking a gross total of about 471,8001. There were
other departments,the amount oft he superan nuati OM connect-
ed with which were not stated. The Right Hon. Gent. had given
to the House a statement of the amount of superannuations iu
some departments, and he argued that those superannuation*
were only in the proportion of * or 104 per cent. on the sums
paid fur actual service. But he (Mr. M.) was inclined to be-
lieve that the account to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had referred, by no means gave a fair view of the whole ex-
pence. It happened, as he had before observed, that a paper
was laid on the table on the 13th of last month, giving an
account of the superannuation, pensions, and salaries of the
different officers in the Navy and Victualling-office. The
whole amount of expenditure was 543,0001., and he observed
amongst the items a vast number of contingencies, compris-
ing stationery, parish rates, taxes, firing, postage, and he
knew not what else. But, independeut of these charge's,
there were upwards of 400,0001. for salaries; and the super-
animations, pensions to cummissioncrs, secretaries, clerks,
mid others, in the civil department, amounted to 136,7721.
making 25 per cent. on the amount of the whole sum, instead
of 10i per cent. This expence had grown up since the year
1810, under the Act then passed. At that time, the super-
. annuations in the Custom-house were about 4,0(101. per an-
num, and they now amounted to upwards of 100,0001. If this
superannuation system were stiffened to go on, it would be as
bad as a second set of poor laws.—(Hear, hear!)—Haw then
were they to deal with the system? In investigating it, two
parties were to be considered—namely, the clerks themselves,
and the public. The clerks remonstrated, most loudly,
against what they called the undue profits which the Chan•
cellar of the Exchequer intended to make at their expenee.
They hail sent forth a pamphlet, to which were appended
long calculations founded on Dr. Price's statements, by
which they laboured to prove that a sum of 188,0001. would
be taken from 588 clerks. They declared that they could do
much better. for themselves than Parliament could do fur
them, and they requested that they should be left in posses-
sion of the 5 per cent, of which it was intended to deprive
them. They argued, that the accumulation of that sum at
compound interest, or the laying it out on a life insurance,
would furnish a better provision than was now contemplated
for themselves and their families.—(Hear !)—He believed this
to he the fact, and he knew not on what account Parliament
should set about making a provision for all the clerks in the
different offices. Why should they not be left to the &Oates
of their own feelings,as other individuals were ? Why should
they not be allowed to lay by, in the time of health and
strength, that which would be sufficient for their mainte•
Dance in the period of age and infirmity? He knew no right
they had to force men to adopt a system of economy. Indi-
vidual morals were not the object of legislative interference.
But what were they now called on to do? They were asked
to agree to a measure which would absolutely prevent men
from becoming provident, and would tend to make them sel-
fish. The legislature would by this measure compel a man to
provide for himself; but, at the same time, they left his wife
and family destitute.—(Hear, bear!)—The clerk must, ac-
cording to this plan, make a provision for his own subsist•
ence; but, if any accident occurred to him, his wife and fa-
mily would be left without support. Now, he would consider
the case with respect to the public. He had already stated,
looking to one of the most extensive boards, that the clerks
declared 5 per cent. to be too great a deduction front their
salaries, since they could for considerably less do all that was
proposed by his Majesty's Government. There was one plain
cause for an alteration of the system, and there might be
many others which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could
explain. The cause which he alluded to was the abuse of the
53d of the late King. He believed that Act had been inter-
preted in a way which Parliament never intended.—(Hear.)
—The word " superannuation" carried its own meaning with
it. The meaning evidently was, that a man should not be pro-
vided for by the public, until from age or infirmity he was
rendered incapable of performing the duties of his office.—
(Hear, hear.)—But was that the way in which superannua-
Lions were granted ? Certainly not. He knew no man, whose
acquaintance was in any degree extensive, who could nut
reckon amongst that acquaintance several persons who
were superannuated in the Parliamentary sense of the word.

—(Hear.)—There were many young men at present walking
about in idleness, who were supported at the public expellee.
He would suppose a young man of 15 or 16 entering a public
office; at the end of 15 years, circumstances might have enabled
him to improve his fortune in a very great degree. A man
thus situated would rather play for a part of his salary than
work for the whole. He was immediately seized with a head-
ache, or fancied he had one (hear, hear !), or he pleaded that
he was assailed by some other trifling complaint; and the
same power that got him into office was effectually exercised
to get him out, with a handsome superannuation allowance. '
—(Hear !)—By this system three men were often paid for
walking about, while the active service was performed by
one.—(Hear This was the system under the Act of the
53d of George 111. When a mau went out of office superan-

nuated, one would suppose . that he was incapable of doing
any thing. But if, in a few years after, a better situation
was offered, the superannuated individual frequently welt to
business again, and became as able and efficient an officer as
any in Isis Majesty's service.--(Hear, hear !)—lt would be
invidious fur him to name one instance of this kind, as it was
not in his power to name them all. Viewing the plan as
attentively as possible, it appeared to him that the deduction
of 5 per cent. was too much for What his Majesty's Minister;
proposed to do for the clerks; and, on the other hand, su-
perannuations to the amount of 2.5 per cent. was by far too
much fur the public to pay. From these considerations, it
struck him that it would be wiser to give tip any attempt to
amend a s:stem which was so defective, and so liable to
abuse ; /sad that the better line of conduct would be, to
adapt the plan pointed out by the clerks themselves ; name-
ly, that of le iving them to pursue the dictates of their own
feelings.—(Hear!)—The Act of the 5.3 d of the late King
ought to be repealed, and those individuals should, be left,
like the rest of mankind, to act for themselves.
Mr. HUME had been about to take the part which the
Hon. Gentleman had taken, as he hoped the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would not proceed with his plan till the details
had been brought before Parliament. He complained of the
increase of superannuat ions. This he instanced in the case of
the Customs, where a fund hadbeen accumulated amounting to
77,0001. when Government took charge of it. From that time
the superannuations increased at the rate of 10,0001. per an-
imas, and, two years after the charge thus created, amounted
to 90,0001. He also complained of several individuals being
paid for doing the business of one. He knew an instance of
a clergyman, who had pet formed the duty at a very small cha-
pel, who had retired to make way for another Minister. This
person had also retired, a third now performed the duty, and
one of the two who retired had been removed to a certain si.
tuation,—(Hear, hear,)—where lie now officiated, though he
had been superannuated as unable to perform the duty at the
chapel.—(Hear.)—He wished the clerks to be left to their
own prudence. To the present system lie objected, as it was
not one which rewarded merit., but one in which favouritism
and influence prevailed. He was not prepared to receive the
plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman with that satisfaction with
which others had seemed disposed to receive it. He went ou to
show, that the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer only
offered an immediate reduction of 200,0001. out of 5,300,0001.
With such a diminution of expence, lie, instead of being sur-
prised that so much had been done, felt altogether disap-
pointed. The total 'eduction to which we were to look for-
ward, would be within 400,0001. Now, in 179 G, the charge
tor the Treasury was 20,0001. Now the minimum of expcnse
nailer which the saute head at which they might hope to ar-
rive, gas 42,0001. being nearly double the amount in 1796. In
1813 an addition of 10 per cent. had been made to many incomes,
and now, when a retina' to cash payments had been effected,
a reduction ofd per cent. was all that was to take place. He
thou complained, that low salaries were to be reduced more
iu proportion than others, iso that a man who received 1231.
was to be reduced to 1001.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER briefly ex-
plained what he had said, and stated this to he no part of his
plan, and also that the comparison between the Treasury ex-
pense in 1796 mid the future charge was not correct.
Mr. HUME resumed. He remarked in 1796 the Treasury
expellee was 20,0001. It was now 47,0001. Add to this sum
3,0001., and it would he double what it was at the former
periad.—(" No," " No l")—It would not be double its for-
mer amount, but it would greatly exceed what it was, and
when all the reductions had taken place that they were now
told tin hope fur, there would still be an additional charge of
12,0001. over that of 17116. He hyped the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would not press the resolution to night. He com-
plained of the Superannuation System altogether, and con-
tended I hat the reductions proposed to be made, amounting
to but 4 per emit. an the whole charge, without taking into
consideration the large military establishment arid the civil
department of the Navy, were by nu means commensurate
with the expectations which had been held out, and could not
satisfy the country. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gen.
tleman that it was painful to reduce the incomes sit indi-
viduals. It would lie cruel to reduce one class and not ano-
ther, but when all were reduced there were no gruunds fur
complaint. Ile was not satisfied with the reductions which
had taken place on the Civil List. It was not enough that
55,0001. was proposed to be saved out of 850,0001.; 30,000 L
being given 11-p by the King, and the rest by different pub-
lic officers. lle was at a loss to conceive why it should be
considered either painful or disgraceful to inquire into she
state of the Civil List. That ought to be as liable as every
branch of public expenditure to come before Parliament.
The reductions tit present contemplated were nut such
as could satisfy the people, but whatever was done, would,
he hoped, be done with a fair and impartial !mod, deal-
ing out equal justice to all, from the highest to the lowest.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to express Isis gratitude far
the manner Ili which his Majesty had come forward on the
present occasion, which he was sure would afford great sa-
tisfact ion to the country. The Right Honourable Gentleman
had gone into some details, but till fuller information was be-
fore the House he could not say whether or not he approved
of the plan. It seemed to him that the Hon. Gentleman had
been mistaken with respect to some of the sums, when be
complained of there being but a reduction of 53,0001. on the
Civil List.. He forgot that the King gave 30,0001. from his
privy purse ; that 23 or 30,0001. was to be contributed by the
great Household Officers, besides 20,0001. from the Political
Officers of the State. From what had been said, he thought
it worthy of serious consideration, whether they should main-
tain the Superannuation Fund and reduce the salaries, or abo-
lish the fund and leave the salaries untouched. He should
say no more, as his principal object in rising had been merely
to express his gratitude fur the gracious condescension of his
Majesty.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to offer a few
observations at this period of the debate, as he thought it
of considerable importance that they should distinctly under-
stand one another as to the course which it was proposed to
pursue. His Bight Hon. Friend, on the present occasion,
did not want to pledge any individual to support the mea-
sure he bad opened to the House; but what he desired
was, that the Resolution should ;Pass, in order that a Bill
might be introduced which would best bring the subject
before the House in detail, and offer all the information
that might be necessary to explain a system so complicated as
that which it involved. The Bill, he understood, was ready
to be introduced, and all the papers necessary to explain it
were in forwardness. He (the Chancellor of the ExaheqUer)
proposed to call fur no vote till all the documents were in the
hands of Members. It was therefore his hope that no Gen-
tleman would think himself pledged to any particular line
of conduct, by suffering the Icesolutions to pass through
the Committee that night, in order that a Bill might be
founded on it, which was the only way in which they could
regularly get to the discussion of the real merits of the
plan, and enable them thoroughly to understand the varioas
points on which they might differ. He went along an
Hon. Member who had spoken in this debate, in the opinion
that the system, such as it had hitherto been; was liable
to abuse, and perhaps some abuses might have crept
into it; but he thought his Right Houton-able Friend had
opened a plan which went inima facie to correct the evil. In
reply to the remarks on the superannnations which had taken
place in the revenue, and political departments, he had to
state that the average of years of service on which superan-
'mations had been allowed, 'came nearer to 30 than to 29.
The ages of those who had been superannuated averaged 65.
The principle of superannuation, lie was of opinion, could
nut at once be got rid of, to make way for the adoption of a
principle of nun-superannuation. Supposing this attempted,
and a clerk not being prudent, should arrive at such an age
that he became a bad clerk, would it not, he would ask, be
most revolting to feeling, to turn out a man after fifty years
service, indifferent whether or mgt he had bread to put in his
mouth, because he had net gone in time to an assurance
office, or made a provision iu some other way for his declin-
ing years? This principle, if acted upon, would be injurious
to the country, as it would cause individuals to be retained
when they were no longer equal to the duties of their situa-
tions. The Act of the 50th of the late King had keen said to
have led to the superannuation of missy young gentlemen. He
did not know that such was the fact. He at least had not
had the good fortune to fall in with these gentlemen. The
present Bill, however, went to correct the evil. It adopted
a principle which had been acted upon in Ceylon—put a limit
to the danger by limiting the means which were to be thus
applied, and made it the interest of all the other clerks who
were in the service of Government to watch over the course

taken, and see that no superannuation was allowed, but
where it was demanded by justice or misfortune. He
protested against the idea that the public service could
be efficiently carried on without some principle of su-
perannuation, though he did not mean to sanction the
establishment of an hospital of incurables, but at the
sante time he protested against the principle of maintaining
an unlimited fund. By the present plan, securities were ob-
tained against the abuse of the principle, which had never
been obtained in this country before, which he doubted
would prove an essential benefit. The Honourable Member
for Sandwich had controverted the statement of the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, that the Superannuations amounted to
but nine or tell per cent. on the total amount of the salaries,
and had stated them to reach 24 per cent. But in this calcu-
lation the Honourable Member included not only Superannu-
ations for existing offiges, but those which had taken place
on account of offices which had been suppressed. The Hon.
Member for Aberdeen had protested against the plan, and had
attempted to damp the rising gratitude of the House, by de-
claring his conviction that it would not satisfy the country. It
was, however, of some importance to remark, that this was the
first night that Hon. Gentleman had come fill ward in so low a

tone, He had nerer heard him (if he might be allowed the
expression) sing in so small a key befoie.—(a laugh.)—This
proved that the Hon. Gentleman had been rather damped,
or at least surprised, to find that he had not made quite
so gond a case against the Chancellor of the Exchequer as
he had supposed himself to have when he came down to the
House. He was afraid, when the papers came before the
House, that it would be necessary to disturb the-Honourable
Member for Aberdeen on the ground which he had chosen,
by proving the reductions to hare been made on that
amount of charge which he had contended for, hut on an
establishment of not more than 4,000,000. With respect to other
matters, it were to be remembered that Committees had sat
on the affairs of Ireland, on the Custornsibere, on the Exports
and Bounties; and he hoped the Hon. Member would not be
surprised if, when these subjects came before the House, be
should find that Government had not been wholly inattentive
to the interests of the country with respect to them. The
Hon. Gentleman was next at a loss what proposition to offer
to the House, who had always been ready to fly to a reduction
of 95 per cent. Now his Right Hon. Friend had come down
with reductions to the amount of twenty per cent., yet still
they were told that these were inadequate and fell short of
the just expectations of the House. Was this the way to en-
courage Ministers to pursue economy ? Was this the way to
animate them to a performance of their duty, to treat with
contempt what had been dune ? Was it well always, whatever
might be offered, to demand more, as if appetite increased
from the sustenance which it received? He desired that
Ministers should be fairly tried—that their measures should
receive the fullest discussion ; but he trusted the House
would not share the feelings of the Hon. Gentleman, with
respect to what they had now offered. He contended that
because 47,0001. was the maximum of the Treasury charge,
and 42,0001. the minimum now looked for. there was no proof
that Government had not approximated the expenditure as
closely as might be to that of 1796. Was it astonishing that
such an increase had taken place, when it was remembered
how much the business bad increased, and that that of
the Irish Treasury had been added to it. His Right
Umlaut-able Friend had shown that a reduction to the
amount of 33 per cent. had been made in the Treasury,
which was considered the favourite department. This he
considered a pretty good earliest of the resolution of Govern-
ment to enforce economy, when such a diminution of charge
was made, besides 5 per cent. being contributed to the Su-
perannuation Fund. The Hon. Gentleman called for details
with respect to the Civil List. The House had never been dis-
posed to do so but when its attention was called to it in order
to effect an alteration or to pay off a debt. This was in fact
that which they had commonly considered it was out of their
province, and almost beyond their competency, to examine.
Mr. Fox said :—" I never wish to come in contact with the
Civil List, unless the Crown brings us into that contact with
calling for a new provision, or requiting to discharge a debt."
He trusted, if the Honourable Gentleman still retained his
wish on this subject, that the House would differ from him,
and not depart from their ancient principles of good faith.
He trusted this subject would be treated in the only way in
which the gracious desire manifested by his Majesty to share
time privations of his people ought to be treated. Had the
King been able to gratify his paternal feelings, he would
have made a much larger sacrifice. But his Government
felt, that to push the concession further would have been the
worst of all delusions on the country, as it would have com-
pelled the Crown to come to the House at no distant day to
claim their aid to relieve it from debt. Nothing could he so
detrimental to all interests than to go into those discussions
which were entertained iu late years, upon the Civil List,
because at that time it was not managed by the regulations
which governed it now. For five successive years the Civil
List had been brought, in all its details, before Parliament,
in a manner which it was exceedingly desirable should be
avoided ill future. Nothing could be so detrimental either
to the Crown or to the people, as to bring the expellees of the
Crown forward as a matter of discussion for Parliament,—
Upon the acknowledgment of this principle, a measure had
been adopted in the year 1816, which had so far wwked well,
that as yet there had been no occasion to examine into the
subject since that period. It should be borne in mind that this
was not the first time the country had been indebted to the
Crown for its assistance in periods of public distress. In
lil2 his Nlajesty voluntarily abandoned 50,0001. flow his in-
come, trout the same motives which prompted him upon
the present occasion. Then the sacrifice was only made for
one year; because his Majesty's Ministers, after s very consi-
deration they could give the subject, were convinced that the
Civil List would only bear the reduction for one year without
producing the worst consequences. It should he recollected,
however, that this 30,0001. was to he given op for five succes-
sive Years. He was convinced that if the Ministers had ad-
vised a more ext...sive sacrifice, it would have involved the
Crow!! and Parliament in the most unpleasant result of an
inqoiry such as lie had mentioned. He therefore trusted that
Parliament would feel, as he was confident the country would,
that this was; one among the many instances which proved
that the King felt and sympathised whenever his people suf-
fered.—(Hear, hear, Ilea; l)
Mr. G. BENNET said it was too much to call upon the
[louse to pledge itself to a principle of superannuation, such
as the Bill would pledge them to, after the experiencethey had
had of former abuses. There was no doubt butt the Govern-
ment ought to have the power of granting superannuations
in cases of long services and specific acts, and Parliament
would never be backward in ratifying grants of such a
nature. The Noble Lord said, how could they turn out
men upon the world, without the means of subsistence,
after their services were no longer required, or capable
of being rendered. But he would say, that in most cases,
men ought to have provided for themselves, while they
had youth and opportunity. The pm ivations which were suf-
fered in old age were frequently the penalties of improvi•
deuce, and to which all mankind were liable. He thought
the rate of per ventage was unfair with regard to the lower
clerks. He should take care, whenever he had au oppor-
tunity, to vote for Use reduction of the enormous salaries
of the high offices of the State to that standard which the
distresses of the country required. There were many suffices,
stick as the Lord Steward and the Lord Great Chamberlain,
which were offices of honour, and which ought to be per-
formed gratuitously. The Noble Lord had alluded to the
former exposures of the details of the Civil List. But a was
not from his side of the House that such a course was re-
commended. The accounts of the quantities of butter and
eggs used in the Royal kitchen were laid before the House
in the late reign, not, as be believed, from any request made
from his (Mr. G. Bennett's) side of the House. He content-
ed that the Noble Marquis had quoted Mr. Fox's language
with a different meaning to that which that great Statesman
had intended it should have. The whole tenor of Ills life
belied and contradicted the construction which the Noble
Marquis had put upon it. The Honourable Member argued
against the principle of the Bill, and said that he should wai
for the details before he entered into his more particular ob

ject ions.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY expressed his satisfaction at the
contemplated reduction, because it held ..ut an example which
he hoped would be further practised. However, the Noble
Lord opposite only relieved the country of the bundle of fea-
thers, which were outside the real burthens of the people.—
(Hear ! and a laugh.)
Mr. WARRE thought other officers than those in the Lord
Chamberlain's department ought to conic under the proposed
reductions. Another class of salaries which was admitted,
ought to have been noticed, namely, the salaries to our Am-
basso tors. He did not now wish to enter into that subject,
nor to press an answer; neither did he consider a mall living
up to his income as a naval officer, although it might be wiser
he should have put up a little. nt still, if such a man had
been a faithful public servant, he was sure the feelings of the
House would allow him sonic remuneration.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in explanation, said,
that the Civil List in Ireland would also be subject to the
Saline reductimras in England. He regretted the idea should
abroad that the whole Civil List was foe the personal ex-
pense of his Majesty, for nothing could be more erroneous.
A large portion of the contribution would come from the
younger minister:, who would equally be obliged to pay their
10 per cent. Besides,no man who now voted for the first
reading of the Bill would be bound to vote for its'adoption
in its future stages, if he did nut approve of the principle on
which it was founded.

Mr. WYNN thought the principle of superannuation import-
ant. Were they to give small salaries to those who could nut
do the public business properly, it would be the greatest
waste of the public money. To suppose that they were
to continue men in office after they were unfit for it, would
be one of the wildest schemes that could be proposed ;
and if they did not allow something to these wen on re-
tiring there would be no getting them out of office, even
when their faculties were gone. From all that he had heard
there was a difficulty in prevailing upon officers to accept
of the superannuation allowance; and if there were no such
allowance they would have much difficulty in prevailing
upon them to confess that their faculties were decayed.—
Rather than be thrown destitute, the men would declare that
they were fit for duty after that fitness was altogether gone.
If they were to look into the matter, they would find that in-
stead of the superannuation being premature, (Awes had been
held too long. Even the great Lord Mansfield bad held the
office of Chief Justice for five years after he was unfit far it.
There was no room fur finding fault with the system when
the average service at which officers were superannuated was
30 years, and ',the average age 65 ; surely this could not be
called abuse. He would put it to any Hon. Member, whether
at such an age, and after such service, he would turn off a
confidential clerk without waking him some allowance; and
ought the country to deal a harder measure to those who had
rendered it important services The Hon. Member for