The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-16 00:00:00

but he would enter upon it hereafter, if the House
to a motion for a Committee. According to
. system, three modes of recovering their dues
to the clergy. The first, which applied to the
101., was by summary process before a inagis-
In this way the claim could be awarded at once,
difficulty ; but eves the efficacy of this simple
Proceeding was defeated by putting in a sham plea.
mode was the ecclesiastical mode. That was
and burdensome to the tenant, when the tithe
• was only a small sum ; and then, after all the
and trouble to which a clergyman might he pat, he
lg hut a monition, or an admission that the claim
, and was compelled to resort to the civil bill pro-
the quarter sessions. Against this jurisdiction, a
might be-entered, similar to that entered under
mode; and if such a plea were set up, the supe-
would immediately issue a prohibition. If,
cause was removed to the superior courts, as it
both parties to the cause, the clergyman who
and the peasant who resisted, the payment
were inevitably put to great expense. ?so
Id be obtained ; and if the clergyman should
. enough to succeed in getting his right in each
case, he would still be put to ten times the coat
final sum in dispute. The third mode was the
the most oppressive and the most efficient.
wise one to which he was happy to say that
seldom resorted, except in extreme cases, and
of great rarity. It was the mode of proceeding
equity. Here the main difficulty of the clergy-
removed, for he could put all who resisted his
solvent as well as insolvent, in one hill, and yet
this mode he was, though a gainer of his suit, a
his pocket. He would not upon this occasion
on the patience of the House by offering any ge-
Observations on the system of tithes with which
in the House, be he Englishman or be he Irish-
of necessity be conversant. There was no
then heard him, who was not aware that the
As a tax on labour, and that it was pro Canto a
successful industry,—(Hear, hear.) There was
'o, even in England, who did not feel that the
tithes was a constant source of litigation and ill-
deea himself and his parishioners, and that it
them both on a footing, from which it was their
interest to be relieved—a footing, which was
tnfavourable to the proper discharge of those sa-
lies, which it was the happiness of one to give,
other to receive, whenever a right footing was
between them. If this were the case in Eng-
entreated all English and Protestant Members of
to consider—he would not ask Irish Members of
to state—the grievances which that system
naturally engender between a body of Catholic pa-
and a Protestant incumbent. He would not
at this stage of the discussion upon the notice of
a description of the endless vexations, the petty
the wretched extortions, unsanctioned by the
which, in the exercise of his functions, were
perpetrated by the tithe proctor. He would
through a more pleasing duty, and would give to
at Hon. Member for the University of Cambridge
eredit for the Bill which he had introduced upon
st—a Bill which, in common justice and can
vas bound to say had removed a great portion of
abuses which had been felt by the peasantry of
That Bill had removed at once the practice of
the tithe a tax proportioned to the success of in-
; it left the tithe as an equitable assessment on the
•tab, which the landlord when he let, and the
when he took he land, felt himself equally bound
From the removal of this grievance great benefit
felt in Ireland wherever the right of collecting
been voluntarily given up. Yet under the Bill
Right Hon. Gentleman it must be admitted that
Where it had been carried into execution, there were
lances which still existed, many remedies which
t'" he applied, and many points at which the old
- were equally felt ; and though by this Bill
.'rotestant clergyman was put in possession of
the remedies and all the liabilities of a land-
Still he had many difficulties to contend with
this system which were almost insuperable. He
refer on this subject to a letter which
recently received from a clergyman—and he
not see any reason why he should withhold his
. the venerable Archdeacon Cotton, rector of
who stated these difficulties in terms which he
adopt as his own, because it was impossible for him
add
any thing to them. That gentleman said,—
not asking payment for any tithes of this last bar-
nut am merely suing for arrears for former years,
lug in the only way which the law provides—
, by civil bill process at the quarter sessions, for
voluntarily passed by the tithe-payers, which notes
to have been paid long ago, but which the parties
- decline paying, until compelled to it by course
• More than 1,0001. is now due to me on such
and, as these sums are owing by about 500 persons,
requires that each person or his house shall be
with a process before he is brought into court :
great a difficulty, if resistance he made, presents it-
in this first stage ! Yet this is far from the
for even if these processes be served by means of
:y military succour, the presence of the person
served them, and his oath to that effect, will be re-
st the sessions : should he be prevented by violence
by threats, (a very likely matter in the pre-
, of things,) the whole of these, accomplished with
'eh difficulty, become as mere waste paper. Again,
Person who witnessed the promissory notes be de-
totu in the same way from appearing, the notes he-
Lis 'uteless ; and the clergyman is not only defrauded of
est:lghts, long and painfully sought for, and acknowledged
iattl'hYi the parties themselves, but moreover is put to con-
e expense in legal proceedings, all of which will
treti fall upon himself. Still farther, if these obstructions
to:tlrcouunted, and the assistant barrister is satisfied as
e Justice of the claims, and grants all the decrees, is
teyienil now gained ? Far from it ! Another stage of. dif-
°tY is yet to be passed, and the same brute-force will be
4
ant tuba
forward
to resist execution of the court's judg-
t; and who will dare in the present state of that dis-
hets execute a single decree? In the mean time, for
100Ynoe of these I must have advanced 7s. 6d. the whole
°f Which may possibly be entirely useless." This was
itat7'aternent made by a clergyman on claims of which the
tf!. was not denied by any man, but which could not
Toreed at present by the law. Of the state to which
Itajlirgy of Ireland were reduced by the present deter-
:o PI tithes of the peasantry to withhold the payment of
ricti°!,ol Vsy it would be difficult for him (Mr. Stanley) to coo-
e to
herli ea be the House any adequate idea. He knew that a
'f rl°o/0 tisett.tltano of them were in a state bordering on destitu-
ar, l 1
ots, they were not in absolute want. He knew that they
ithe 006 tostit7en compelled to part not only with the luxuries and
psi jjr !WU, but in some cases also with the necessaries of life ;
thortoot, ta4 if he wished to place their condition in the most for-
ons vi);t, tlite language before the House, he would lay before it
ticolar ) tae statement of the Rev. Dr. Butler, vicar of Burnchurch,
cult?, '414 'ng the state of his family. Indeed, he would read
ler L cvi) Gentleman's letter, in order to make the
at 1`)01J rse,' acquainted with the condition to which the clergy-
pA°
,00 ti k °f the Church of Ireland were reduced in the exer-
rote' taij 4-yof their acknowledged rights. The letter ran thus :
if o°e•A teo °u are aware that a meeting of hurlers, persons un-
tie st,,',l 14,4;cteil with the parish assembled at my house, and
vast' ' would not submit to their intimidation.. Since that
day
0
Si., of hnsof my proctors was most cruelly murdered. The
er. b`. aut! has been obliged privately to leave the country. An
tbe 0 tittutlrtunate server of latitats was taken by force from
os4,tY-five police, and by a miracle escaped death. The
.I,o‘ foul and false calumnies have been published con-
-o°l,l roll tittiliag me in the Kilkenny Journal, and myself and
ow ur
colictiot Of ,tati tuy sons have finally beers obliged to fly tbe country.
sat „ after a residence of more than thirty-six years, du-
etre'PdsPi tao,7 Which time my sole endeavour was to benefit my
10,,5f d4t 'aloners, I have been banished from my borne and my
iad Y' starving exile. The income of the parish is above
for tb
stat),. a year. The sums payable out of that income
tsr• „pl,l ratilamnt to more than 6001. a year, to wit, interest on
was l'tP! eY borrowed for building the glebe-house, quit rent,
tlie town .
snot e or rent, instalment to the Board of First Fruits, rent
of n_ _Jr. tee' ehes school-masters' salary, rent of school-house, four
les . ,
00 ske " proxies, and exhibits, insurance of house and
Carw,iol' f,
°'
Which the law requires to be paid, and the charge
'lent
Sof Ise :I'nutgenent. The money to pay these demands must
'lent resat, ti Pr"ided and paid. I have sold my horses, and adver-
in de 0 ed .
vsat, carriage, parted with all my labourers and w-
ain' t and broken np my entire establishment. I have
rn oti to ri the
on, t one woman servant, and I believe that I am not
sent t' e° my clergyman in the same situation, reduced from
the 7;l', any tto absolute poverty. No remuneration could tempt
en etPbe. hy the
to view the parish—no process-server appointed
; r to, 1,40 e
dare
barrister will serve a tithe process—no
Pyres:el:ooi 01,47 dare make his appearance ; and if legal decrees were
ru bites th,t, fled, they could not be executed. The farmers say
,ber'?,arci 11,2 they have completely abolished tithes; and that they
wotilebreif (t::c will pay until they know what Parliament will do."
r. yre earktli,d cries of " Hear.") Under these circumstances,
e pots ',rued Alr. Stanley, if it were only for the sake of the
y, Wit'e Cat3.tna. taut Church of Ireland, and of the support which it
Oiatt"rutcyrnbent upon every Government to give to it, Mi-
d br felt themselves bound to come before Parliament,
„1 ttud to
- 01 0 tia
Aof call upon it to proceed forthwith to the examine-
esy pi the laws which left the testant clergy in so de-
m . •
)13 the a condition. But if her were able to show that
pre th .verY same circumstanced which were so oppressive to
Id Pot e °Orgy, who de a d
man , were equally vexatious to the

occupiers of land who paid the tithes, he should be able
show the Committee a source from which a remedy-might
be applied to the grievances of both,—a remedy which
would place both the Church and the peasantry on a right
footing, and would dry up the sources of those grievances
which for centuries past had afflicted Ireland under the
present tithe system. There were few cases—he would
not say that there were none—in which charges of op-
pression and extortion were made against the clergy. That
there were some cases he was aware, but they were, com-
paratively speaking, few indeed. It would therefore be
the right of the clergy to demand an opportunity of show-
ing before the Committee what was the rate of charge for
tithe in Ireland, and also what was the rate received by
the clergy of the Church of England. He had now
an instance by him, in which a complaint was made
by the parishioners to the clergyman of the parish, in
which they complained, not that he exacted more
than ,his right from them, but more than they had
ability to pay. He believed that this was no uncom-
mon case throughout Ireland. He would read the
petition to the House. It was as follows :—" The
petition of the landholders of the Union of Kell*
" humbly showeth, that your petitioners, from the depres-
sion of the times, the exorbitant rents and taxations with
which they are encumbered, and unable to discharge much
longer, are:under the necessity of applying to your Rave-
rence.for reduction in the amount of the tithes which are
_levied on them, and petitioners humbly hope that your'
Reverence will take their gate of destitution into considera-
tion, and comply with their earnest and reasonable request;
-and petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray." He
(Mr. Stanley) was also furnished with the amount of the
tithe, and of the applotment in that parish. It was thus
stated in a letter which he had received from the clergy-
man of the parish :—" The Union contains, by the applot-
ment book, 9,5855. OR. 21r. is set for 1,075/. late cur-
rency, which amounts to 992/. 6e. 2d. Of this sum a
lay impropriator receives 2001. per annum. The average
amount per acre is not quite 21. 2d. It is almost all
tillage, and produced before the composition was entered
into 1,600/. per annum. It was reduced to what the
Union paid fifty years ago, when the composition was ef-
fected. The parishioners do not complain of the amount,
but say they are forbid to pay. I have two curates to pay
out of my income, and have been compelled to build a
glebe out of my own pocket, which has cost upwards
of 2,000/." He (Mr. Stanley) mentioned this to show
that it was not the amount of tithe charged by the
clergyman that was felt as the grievance. The grievance
felt was the extortion of the tithe-proctor, the oppres-
sion of the underletter, the annoyance of the civil bill
process server, the vexation of frequently paying small
sums, and above all of paying them to a church
which they were taught not to believe in.—(Hear, hear.)
He 'had heard it argued that tithe, in any manner in
which it might be collected, fell only on the occupying
tenant. Now, except as to the uncertainty of its amount
it was as clear to him as the sun at noon day that the
amount of tithe was a claim not on the occupying tenant,
but on the landlord ; and if he had any doubt upon such a
point, that doubt would have been removed by the Tithe
Composition Act, which enacted that all leases granted
after its passing should be granted tithe free, and that the
tenant should be entitled to show his receipt for payment
of tithes to the clergyman in payment of his rent to his land-
lord. It followed, therefore, that the tithe was a deduction
from the rent, and he had no doubt that if the payment of
it to the Church were removed from the tenant to-morrow,
it would be exacted next day in the shape of tent with
greater rigour, either by the Catholic or the Protestant
landlord.—(Cries of " Hear.") But then came the
grievance ; in the one case it was felt as a payment to the
krotestant Church, and in the other it was absorbed in the
rent paid to the landlord. He thought, therefore, that it
ought to be known where the pressure came from—that
pressure, which was charged upon the Church, but which,
in point of fact, came from the landlord.—(Hear.) He had
hitherto applied himself to the consideration of the hardship
which the present tithe system of Ireland inflicted on incum-
bents, and had not noticed the peculiar vexation which it
ceased the tithe-payer. He would be shorter upon this
part of the subject than he had been upon the other, be-
cause he was unwilling to tempt Irish eloquence to come
into the field with true Irish power, founded upon an Irish
feeling for the peasantry suffering under grievances, which,
to whomsoever else they might be attributable, ought not
to be charged on the Established Church. He might be
permitted upon this point to quote a letter which he had
recently received from a clergyman of great respectability,
That gentleman, after stating what were the grievances of
the tithe system, made this additional statement upon his
" own experience :"—" There are a vast number of in-
stances in my own parish where one poor man, 'whose
whole tithes annually do not amount to more than ls. Bd.
per annum, and yet subject him to have his cow, sheep,
pig, or horse, taken and driven to pound six times in the
year for tithes, and liable upon each and every driving to a
charge of 2s. 6d., driver's fees, besides expense of im-
pounding, and waste of time from his labour in seeking the
.person duly authorized to give him a receipt. He is liable
to be summoned, moreover, and decreed for vestry cess once
in the year, making annually seven calls on account of the
Church to his little plot of one acre ; besides, his little
holding is liable to two calls in the year for grand
jury, public money, and frequently to two calls more
for crown and quit-rent. Thus eleven calls are spade
upon his small holding in the year, besides his landlord's
rent, and for sums trifling in themselves, but perplexing
and ruinous in the coots which attend them. Surely
such are hardships that ought to be removed." Was it
possible, he would ask, that any man should not be
roused to a state of excitement by the contemplation
of such a system in practice ? Nay, was it possible
that such a system could tend, he would not say to the
security of the Protestant Church, but to any thing else
but its serious endangerment? Here were six different
persons, each having claims upon this unfortunate peasant,
all of different, but all of very inconsiderable amount.
They did not collect these sums themselves, but farmed
them out to some tithe proctor, to whom they gave 2s. 6d.
in the pound for the collection. He again lets them out
for some trifling sum above that which he had given him.
self, and the system of sub-letting went on till they got at
the inmate of some whiskey-shop as the last sub-lessee,who,
to eke out his own petty gains, practised such extortion
upon the peasantry as would make the Protestant clergy-
men, if they were acquainted with them, shrink with ab-
horrence at the instruments which they were unconsciously
the cause of employing.—(Hear.) He apprehended that
the great grievance in the present system was, first, that
the clergy, in pursuance of their legal rights, were com-
pelled to apply to an indefinitely large number of occupiers
of lands for an indefinitely small sum, for which they were
obliged to put themselves, in the first instance, and after-
wards others, to very considerable expence. Indeed, the
small portion which each man paid of tithes was no less a
source of vexation to those who paid, than it was to those
who received them. Again, the persons who were subject
to this small tax were, in general, in the lowest station of
society. A landlord might subdivide his property into as
'small portions as he pleased ; but when he had done so,
and had let his land, he knew from whom his rent was to
be drawn. The clergyman had only the same remedy to
recover his tithe that the landlord had to receive his rent;
but he took the subdivisions at the will of the landlord,
and against each of those subdivisions he must proceed se-
parately if he intended to recover his rights. Now the
holders of these small subdivisions of property, even when
willing to pay the tithes, were the first persons to be in-
timidated into not paying them. For supposing that a few
malignant persons in a village were to combine against the
clergyman, these small holders, in their poor paltry hovels,
would have no protection against midnight outrage and
violence. In case a Committee were granted, he should
be able to lay before it numerous instances in which tenants
had been willing, but had not dared, to pay their tithe in
consequence of the anonymous threats which had been
held out to them. He had before told the House that the
Tithe Composition Act had effected much good. Having
effected so much, it was necessary to look to the
cause which had prevented its general extension over
,Ireland. However advantageous it might be, he believed
them were two or three causes which rendered it impos-
sible, unless some facilities were granted by Parliament
to carry the Act into cninplete operation. (The Right Hon.
Gentleman here mentioned what these causes were, but a
disturbance in the gallery prevented us from hearing the
-first of thsm.) After stating it, be said that another cause
arose in a great measure from the opposition which the
Bishops gave to the terms agreed on between the clergy.
men and the parishioners; the clergyman often abating
his legal rights, and the Bishop refusing to permit such
abatement, lest the permanent sights of the Church should
be thereby endangered. Another cause was the difficulty
of making any composition where the tithe received was
divided among several parties, and where some of them
were trustees for hospitals. A respectable clergyman was
willing to compound for a less sum than his legal right ;
but the trustees of hospitals alleged on their behalf, that it
was their duty to make the most they could of the tithe
for the funds of their charity, and therefore they often
preferred setting to a tithe proctor, who bid higher, as
being practised in all the harassing system of tithe litiga-
tion, to abating one farthing of their strict claims. An-
other, and the last cause of the existing evils to which he
should allude was, that in the collection of tithes, and in
the serving of the civil bill process, the clergyman was
made a very prominent person with hie Catholic parish-
ionets. With many clergymen he was sorry to say it

Was the only point of view in which they were brought
into contact with their Catholic brethren ; and he was
sure that he should have the concurrence of the House when
he said that nothing could be more hostile to the Protes-
tant Church than a system which brought the Protestant
clergyman into daily collision with his Catholic neighbours.
Various modes had been suggested by which the existing
system might be altered. It was said by some that
Government ought to take all the revenues of the Church
of Ireland into its own hands; and pay the clergy a fixed
sum out of them. This plan, to which there were serious
objections in principle, would, he thought, be attended
with great inconvenience in practice ; for if Government
took the property of the Church into its own hands, it
must, in its own defence, exact the tithes with great seve-
rity,—with far greater severity, indeed, than, had ever
been objected to the Church. Another proposition was
the adoption of a perpetual corn-rent in lieu of tithes.
Now, though he thought this a less objectionable mode
than the former, he was prepared to contend that they
would not give either to the Catholic or Protestant inha-
bitants of Ireland the same relief which they might do by
another mode of changing the present system. He would
not pledge either the House or the Government to the
adoption of any one system, but he thought that there was ,
only one mode by which they could give to the Protestant 1
Church of Ireland that security which all wished it to
possess, and remove from the Roman Catholics of that
country those grievances of which they justly complained.
He looked to the commutation of land for tithes as the
best system—he did not think that it would be a matter of
difficulty to carry such a system into effect. He thought
that with great benefit to the clergy, and to the landed in-
terest, and to the community of Ireland at large, they
might effect an extensive commutation of land for tithe.
After the great indulgence with which the House bad al-
ready listened to him, he, would not trespass farther on its
attention by entering at present into a description of
the step necessary to effect that commutation, for it
would be the province of the -Committee to determine in
what manner, and by what steps, the change should be
effected. But after proving, as he trusted that ho had
done satisfactorily, that the present laws were inefficient
for the purpose for which they were enacted, were vexa-
tious to the tithe-payer, and ruinous to the Church—after
proving that this system of tithe had been the handle for
years past, and still continued to be the handle, to all the
agitators and disturbers of the peace of Ireland, he thought
that he had shown enough to sanction the House in ap-
pointing the Committee for which he now moved. And
as they valued the welfare and tranquillity of Ireland, the
safety of the Protestant Church, the prosperity of the
higher sod the amelioration of the lower orders,—in a
word, as they valued religion itself, he implored them to
consent to this inquiry, and entreated them, in the pa-
triotic language of the King's speech, " to adopt such im-
provements in the laws respecting tithes as would afford
protection to the Established Church, and remove the pre-
sent causes of discontent." He then moved, amid loud
cheering, with which he was often greeted in the course of
his speech, " That a Selent Committee be appointed to
examine into the payment of tithes in Ireland, and the
laws relating thereto ; and to report their observations
thereon to the House."
Sir R. PEEL said, that from the manner in which the
Right Hon. Secretary had- alluded to him, he (Mr.
Stanley) must have supposed that he had come down to
the House to give his most strenuous opposition to the
present motion. Now there was nothing in the expres-
sions used by high on the first night of the session which
could justify the Right Hon. Secretary in entertaining such
a notion ; and he never recollected an occasion in which
the propriety of abiding by the rule of not referring to
what had fallen from Hon. Members on former occasions
in the then present Parliament was more forcibly illus-
trated than it had been that evening. A great part of
the Right Hon. Secretary's speech turned upon expres-
sions which be had imputed to him (Sir Peel), but which,
in point of fact, he had never employed. Although be
was prepared to offer no opposition to the present motion,
he must be pardoned if he•now said a very few words upon
it. He was too. deeply impressed with a sense of the me-
lancholy condition to which Ireland was reduced by agi-
tation to lend himself to the views of any persons who
thought that they could .forward their party views by op-
posing the Government on this question,—(Hear, hear.)
He could not see any thing more wicked than any attempt
on the part of individuals to obtain benefit for themselves
from embroiling the politics of Ireland. Wherever else
they fought the battles of party, let not Ireland be the
arena selected for them.—(Hear, hear.) Entertain-
ing these opinions, he could not help declaring it to
be his opinion, that though the importance of the
subject might require a place in the King's speech,
it was impolitic to make a reference to it there,
if the Government were not prepared with a distinct
plan for removing the grievances of which they admitted
the existence. The evil, too, would be considerably aggra-
vated, in case the interval were long between the men-
tion of the subject in the speech and the introduction of
the remedial measures contemplated by Government. He
hoped that when the Committee was appointed, it would
not lose a day in inquiring 'whether the Government had
properly enforted the existing laws relative to the pay-
ment of tithes. He had not heard any charge made
against the Government for having neglected its duty in
this respect. He had not preferred, nor did he intend to
prefer, any such charge himself; and if such a charge
were preferred, he trusted that not this, but another Com-
mittee would be appointed to examine into the truth of it.
He had hoped that the Right Hon. Secretary would have
explained his plan more in detail than he had done on
the present occasion. He fully admitted the existence of
all the evils ofoltich the Right Hon. Secretary complained.
He could not know what he did know of the Protestant
Church of Ireland without feeling the necessity of reliev-
ing its ministers front a condition the most deplorable that
could be imagined. He believed that the Right Hon,
Secretary had not at all exaggerated the melancholy situa-
tion in which they were placed. If a plan for the altera-
tion of the present system of tithe laws had been regularly
laid before the House, he' could suppose the necessity for
appointing a Select Committee to examine its details. The
present plan, however, was a plan of commuting tithes
for land. Now the operation of such a measure must
necessarily be distant.' Besides, the propriety of adopting
such a plan at all, was open to discussion. Whether the
property of the Protestant Church, in the hands of
Catholic tenant., would by secure, he was not then called
upon to decide. They were now on the point of sepa-
rating for the receas, and as nothing explicit had
been' stated that evening by the Right Hon. Secretary, all
Ireland would be at a loss to know what was meant by the
aLusion to it in the King's speech. He had before stated
that the declaration of the Right Hon. Secretary, that in
any measure which he might introduce on this subject, he
should pay respect to the property of the Church,
gave him great satisfaction and encouragement, Re
deprecated, however, the necessity of appointing a Com_
mittee to examine into the state of the Church of Ireland
apart from the Church of England. The two Churches
were united Churches. The melancholy picture, how-
ever, which the Right Hon. Secretary bad drawn, and bad
placed before him, of the condition of the clergy of the
Church of Ireland; rendered it impossible for him to press
his objection or. that score to the present motion. Every
day increased his, apprehension, and he cordially concurred
with the Right lion. Secretary, in hoping that the House
would do nothing either to inflame the public mind, or to
increase a peril which was now too palpable to be denied.
It was with a view to the example which so humble an
individual as himself might set, that he now refrained
from entering into „ topics which might lead to an angry
and acrimonious discussion. He should therefore offer no
objection to the appointment of a Committee. He
hoped, however, that the Committee would proceed at
once to the examination of the plan to be submitted to it ;
for, whatever importance the House might attach to the
vacation of Reform, he, thought that Hon. Gentlemen would
see that the present was a vital questionaaffecting the
peace and prosperity of the empire, and that the considera-
tion of every other question should be postponed for its
consideration. •
Mr. LEADER expressed his regret that the Right llon.
Secretary did not enlarge the ground to which the atten-
tion of the Committee was directed, or that be bad thought
it right to limit its inquiries to the question of tithes alone.
He did not think that was an unimportant question in it-
self, but it formed only a part of the subject to which he
should wish to see the attention of the Committee directed,
which was nothing less than the consideration of the gene•
ral condition of the Established Church in Ireland. He
must, however, rejoice that even the question of tithes was
to be submitted to the investigation of both Houses of Par-
liament, and the only regret which he had with respect
to that question was, that it had not at a much earlier
period excited, a larger share of the attention of those who,
from their official connexion with Ireland, must have been
aware of the intolerable evils which that system had en-
tailed on that country. He spoke chiefly with reference
to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn we under-
stood), and those with whom he was connected in the Go-
vernment of Ireland; who bad the best opportunities of
knowing how the system worked. It was also a matter of re-
gret to him that the subject had been brought forward in the
absence of one who had paid the greatest attention to it, and
who had collected a mass of the most important informa-
tion respecting it ; but his chief regret was, that the Right
Hon. Secretary bad not referred the whole question of the
Established Cbo-ech in Ireland to the Committee. When

Hein. Members Considered 'the immense--he Would say
the extravagant—revenue drawn bythe Established Church
in Ireland from the resources of that country, they would
he impressed with the necessity of extending the inquiry
into the whole subject of that establishment. The amount
of its revenues was now not a matter of uncertain calcu-
lation. They hadit from official returns which could not
be denied. From these it appeared that from tithes alone
(as we understood the Hon. Member, who spoke from the
floor with his back to the gallery, by which many of his
remarks went unheard by the reporters) the church of Ire-
land derived an income of 780,384/. a year. Besides this,
several sees of Ireland were in possession of 550,280 acres ;
added to which, there belonged to corporations and other
ecclesiastical bodies, in glebe and other lands, property
amounting in value to about 250,000/. a year. So that
in land and tithes it was now ascertained, by official re-
turns, that the Established Church of Ireland derived a
revenue from that country of 1,785,0001. a year—(Hear,
hear)—and this, let it be remembered, was paid for the
religious instruction of comparatively a very small portion
of the inhabitants of that country. He was one of those who
thought, and indeed no one of those who objected to the
tithe system in Ireland disputed the proposition, that the
clergy of the Established Church in Ireland should he well
paid for the services they performed ; but when it was known
that nearly 2,000,0001. a year were drawn from the country
by the religious instructors of about one-sixth or one-seventh
of the population it must be admitted that the continuance of
such a system could never give satisfaction to those of a
different religion by whom so large a portion of that re-
venue was paid, and who had, in addition, to support
their own clergy, to whom they were devotedly attached.
The case was very different in England, where the great
body of the people belonged and were attached to the
Church which they were called upon to maintain. The
tithe system here, therefore, though in many instances it
was found to he vexatious in its operation, was looked
upon with different feelings from those which were en-
tertained respecting it by the great mass of the population
in Ireland. Those feelings were such, that no law which
could be devised would be able to reconcile the people to
the support of such an immense establishment, which
seemed to be kept up not for the instruction of the
many, but for the aggrandizement of a few.—(Hear, hear.)
In the answers of some of the Bishops of the Established
Church in Ireland to queries put to them, the House
would find still stronger proof—if proof were necessary—
of the enormous magnitude of the Church revenues coin-
' pared with the Protestant population for whose religious
instruction it was kept up. From these answers it appeared
that in the southern and western districts of Ireland the
number of Protestants was very small, and in some ex-
tensive districts there was scarcely any. In the counties
of Sligo,•Roscoromon, Leitrim, Mayo, and Galway, the
proportion of Catholics to Protestants was as 20 to 1 ;
in Clare they were 25 to 1 ; in Kerry 14 to 1 ; in
Limerick 19 to 1 ; in Cork (we understood) 20 to 1, and
in some others of the southern and western counties in
nearly the same proportion. It farther appeared from the
official sources to which be had alluded, that there were
6,000,000 of acres, with a population of nearly 3,000,000,
which were almost exclusively Catholic, and yet that por-
tion of the country paid to the Protestant establishment
nearly 1,000,0001. a year. Could peace or content be ex-
pected in a country where such a disproportion existed, or
could it be expected that a system of this kind could con-
tinue ? It was impossible, and therefore some system of
commutation to some other mode of payment was abso-
lutely necessary, not more for the peace of the country,
than for the quiet and comfortable subsistence of the
Protestant clergy themeelves. He had not risen to enter
into the whole question on this occasion, as a more fit op-
portunity would occur hereafter for that purpose. His
chief object in rising was to express the regret he felt, in
common with many other Irish Members, that the Go-
vernment had not thought proper to refer the whole sub-
ject of the Established Church in Ireland to the investi-
gation of the Committee. From one part of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's statement lie differed. He thought
he had understated the means which the Protestant clergy
had of recovering their tithes by legal means. He might
do so by a summons before two Magistrates, or by civil
bill, or by application to the Ecclesiastical Courts; or, if
he did not choose to avail himself of any of these, the
Courts of common law were open to him ; or a Court of
Equity would attend to his claim. But it would be said
that all these had been tried, and in many instances had
failed. He admitted the fact, and the cause of the failure
had been, and would continue to be, the aversion of the
Catholic population to be taxed in that manner for the sup-
port of the Protestant Church.—(Hear.) He lamented
as much 48 any man the unfortunate disputes which had
recently taken place in some parts of Ireland ; but it was
a mistake to suppose that these were caused by the ques-
tion of tithes alone. There were other and deep causes
for the distress and consequent discontent which existed in
so many parts of that country, since the year WOO the
state of Ireland was becoming worse. He spoke not now
with reference to the removal of the local Legislature, for
into that he would not then enter. For a time after the
Union the loss of the local Government was supplied in a
great degree by a resident gentry, but of late years these
had gradually disappeared from Ireland. Not only those
who had large incomes from land bad become absentees,
extendedl,oo o t
ot o
5l
og numberswhoof mne
on
ww i
th
incomes
of re-
sided either in this country or on the Continent, and there
spent the whole of that which ought to be circulated
amongst those by whom it was rained. Besides these,
system
had
Ireland had to regret the removal from her of those army,
naval, and ordnance establishments which had been the
means of circulating millions of money in that country,
but which had within a few years been transferred to Eng.
land. Besides these she had lost nearly the whole of her
linen trade, and thus with the loss of her local Legislature,
of her resident gentry, of large naval and military establish -
moots, of civil hoards, of the bounties on her fisheries and
coarse linens, she was now reduced to a state of almost hope-
less misery, Let these facts be considered, and it would be
seen that the evils in Ireland lay, not in the tithe system,
though that was bad enough, but in a variety of other
causes which an attempt to remedy that system only
would leave untouched. If Hon. Members would bear in
mind the drains which were constantly made on Ireland,
they would see that it was impossible she could go
on as she was at present. She had to pay 4,000,0001. a
year to the Government, 3,000,000/. to absentees, nearly
2,000,0001. to the Church, If to these were added the
extravagant amount of grand jury assessments, it would
be found that the country was charged with about
14,000,0001. a year on a produce that was some millions
below that amount. It was evident, then, that some of
the charges most go unpaid—either the landlord, or the
grand jury rate, or the tithe proctor, for she could not pay
them all. She could not pay 14,000,0001. a year out of
a produce of 8,000,0001. If there had been an increase
in the agricultural exports of Ireland, they were more
than counterbalanced by the decay of her trade. Were
not these all subjects which required investigation as well
as the tithe system ? He could tell Hon. Gentlemen that
they much deceived themselves who thought that an in-
quiry into that system would remedy the other evils to
which he had referred. An inquiry into the great locum-
brance of the Church would do much, but the whole sub-
ject should be gone into.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that
there were difficulties in the way of such an inquiry; but
they must be met, for the evils of the system would not
cease to press on them until they were met by some plan
of commutation of tithe altogether for some other mode of
paying the clergy. He would not go into that at present,
but would take an early opportunity of moving that the
whole of the Church Establishment in Ireland should be re-
ferred to the consideration of the Committee. The Hon.
Member, after expressing his hope that the subject would
be considered dispassionately when brought forward, and
his conviction that nothing but a commutation would
place the Protestant clergy on a comfortable footing, con-
cluded by stating that his only object in bringing these
matters under the consideration of the House was that
which alone had induced him to desire a seat in it—
namely, a desire to improve the condition of Ireland, for
by that means would the peace and prosperity of the
United Kingdoms be most effectually secured and
strengthenei.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. D. BROWNE thought that tithe in Ireland was
more vexatioul than oppressive, for every landlord got his
estate on the condition of having tithes to pay out of it.
The vexatious principle of tithe was, that it was exacted
from a Catholic population to pay a Protestant establish-
ment. He, as a Protestant, had a sincere attachment to
that religion, but he must say that its temporalities ought
to be reduced to proper dimensions. They were kept at
their present enormous amount in the hope from the be-
ginning of making Ireland Protestant; but though they
had been trying at that for three Centuries, they had com-
pletely failed in the effect. His advice to Government
was to take the whole of the Church property in Ireland
into its possession, sell it, and put the proceeds into the
consolidated fund, and pay the Protestant clergy out of it,
according to the services. Commutation would not do,
for people would object to pay commutation rent ; and if
they objected to that, they would also object to pay other
rents. He did not object to the Committee, but he would
object to the proposition of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Leader)
of referring the consideration of the whole Established
Church to that Committee. There ought to be a separate
Committee for each.
Mr. G. DAWSON, after expressing the pleasure he
felt in hearing the clear and able statement of the Right

Hon. Gentleman as to tithes In Ireland, observed, that he
had mistaken him (Mr. Dawson) in supposing him to
have said that the Government had connived at the op-
sition of tithe in Ireland. He had no recollection of
having Stated any thing of the kind, and, on referring
to one of thee sources of information as to what passed in
thatligew, he found that what he had stated was very
different from the Right Hon. Gentleman's impression of
it. He rejoiced at the declaration of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and he hoped it was an echo of the senti-
ments of Government on the subject, that it was intended'
to uphold' the' rights of property of the Established-
Church of Greit Britain and Ireland. He rejoiced also
that the tone of the speech when it reached Ireland
would ..diffinie general satisfaction and confidence, and
would disarm those open and concealed enemies of the
Church, whether in Political Unions or other associations.
He agreed:_that one of the great evils was, that the
Catholic objected to pay tithe to the Protestant estaZ
blisliment ; -but if that objection was held good in Ire-
land, the Dissenter would claim the same exemption in
England ; and thus one step would lead to another, so
that we should noon get rid of the whole of our Protestant
institutions.
Mr. J. BROWN was convinced that any thing short of
a total anti radical reform of the whole of our Church Esta-
blishment in Ireland would not be sufficient to remedy the
evils:arising from our present system.
Mr. GOULBURN stated, that though he was disposed
to protest against some of the doctrines which he had
heard from. Hon. Members opposite, he was unwilling to
enter into the discussion of this subject at present, nor
should he helve risen at all, because he meant not to oppose
the CoMfasittee,- but that having taken a different course
when be was in office, he wished to mention the reason
why he had done so. When in Ireland he bad a❑ oppor-
tunity of observing the differences that arose between
parties from this system. He had tried to settle matters
between -them, not by instituting an inquiry, but by means
which would gradually settle their differences and establish
a permanent arrangement as to the amount claimed and
paid. He had endeavoured to do that by the Tithe Com-
position Bill, and he must say, that as far as it bad gone
it had exceeded his most sanguine expectations. If Mi-
nisters had come down with a measure ready prepared on
this subject, and which they would have taken upon diem
at once to propose, he might have been disposed in such a
case to give. them his cordial support. He regretted that
instead of:duing so, they had adopted a course which was
likely to give rise to much animosity and angry feeling,
and which would open the door to a great deal of violent
discussion that might have been otherwise avoided. Much,
however; Si he Objected to the line of proceeding that had
been taken by 'Ministers in this instance, he should give no
opposition to the present motion.
Mr. SHEIL` said, that the Hon. Gentlema❑ (Mr.
Goat burn) bad offered incense to the Secretary for Ireland
in return for_that which had been wafted to him, and had
then proceeded to expatiate on his own merits in the con-
struction of the tithe composition Act. It had been
always 'understood that it was the production of Lord
Wellesley. This, however, had not been confirmed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman ; and it was to be taken for
granted that he would not dress himself in feathers bor-
rowed'lroM the splendid plumage of that illustrious per-
son. It was, however, rather remarkable that the Hon.
Gentleman should take credit for this master-piece of le-
gislation,-when the Secretary for Ireland had announced
that, it had failed to produce the good results anticipated
from if. Hear, hear.) The Secretary for Ireland had
stated thit its provisions were inadequate to its interests,
and thattfe most dreadful disturbances had taken place in
the Parte.of the country to which it had been applied.__
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Sheil) thought it tight to advert,
with some distinctness, to the malevolent encomiums pro-
nounced upon Government by the Member for Harwich
(Mr.- Dawson). That Hon, Gentleman was iu the habit
of using a quotation which was peculiarly apposite in this
Instance--

Ulla putetis,
" Dona carere dolls Danaum ?"
To paraphrase the celebrated interrogatory, he should say,
can the praise of such a man be destitute of design? Is
there-not evil -in his commendation, and poison in his

honeyed sentences.—(Cheers.) He affected to speak o
the Established Church as the model of ecclesiastical per•

fection,- yet- the Hon. Gentleman had once allowed his
moral sensed (strange to say) to overcome his political pre-
dilections, and whe❑ an application was made for money
to repair the Cathedral of Derry, he burst forth into an
exclamation against the monstrous revenues of the Bishops,
and presented to the House a very picturesque description
of the,epi►eopal territories.--(Cheers.) Now the Hon.
Gentleman was not only content with passing the, most
unqualified panegyric on the entire Church, but he in-
sisted .on'invcriving the Government in a most inauspicious
particip.atidu in his sentiments.—(Hear, hear.) But

.gatnst hi prams he olr. ueit) ..t up the acts a
the:Governiment, and the declaration of the Prime Mini.

, .
ster,.(Hear, hear,) The Secretary fur Ireland might
entertain %ghat opinions he thought proper, but what said
Lord-Grey ? Had not Lord Grey denounced, since he was
Minister, the enormous anomalies of the Irish establish-
ment; drawn a distinct line of separation between it
and. the English Church, and stated that it must be
adapted to the condition of the country, and to the feel-
in6; --of the' vast majority of the English people.—(Cries
of hear,") He (Mr. Shell) must needs
rescue tha Government from the political embraces
of the gentlemen on the opposite side. But did the
matter rtop. there ? When the see of Derry (that prodi.
giowysee!) became vacant, the Hon. Member for Middlesex,

Whose absence was to be lamented on to many accounts,
hut especially for its cause, gave notice that he should move
an address to the Crown, praying the King not to fill up
that see. 'the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down,
after Dr. Ponsonby had been appointed, and announced,
on the part of the whole Cabinet, that Dr. Ponsonby had
, been promoted on the express condition that he should
take.the see.subject to such diminutions and regulations as
should- afterwards be introduced.—(Loud cheers.) But
he-(Mr. Sheil) had not yet done. The Member for Wa-
terford moved a resolution respecting first fruits, and was
sustained by the Government, who declared the clergy
should, if possible, be taxed to the full amount. The
Ilfouse resolved, that the opinion of the Irish law officers
shouldbetalen, The Irish Attorney-General, a friend
of the Church, the Solicitor-General, who is not, at all
events, its enemy, gave an opinion averse to that of ano-
ther lawyer, who had been consulted by the remembrancer
of the Board, and said no valuation could be made. But
did the matter rest there ? No ; the Government were
bound, in consistency, and upon principle of political in-
tegrity,-to bring in an Aet of Parliament to redress the
gross abuse,' by which, in place of 132,0001., the Bishops
pay about 1,2001., and out of nearly a million of money,
the clergy pay only about 3,oool.—(Hear, hear.) Still
he had not done. Where was, the Vestry BiP, which the
Secretary for Ireland was to bring in in its amended and
More reasonable shape? Were not Government also
pledged to put an end to that iniquitous and exasperating
system,• by which a few Protestants could assemble in a
Conclave of village ascendancy, and mulct us at their ca-
price.? Thus, therefore, the imputations on the Govern-
ment,,, conveyed in the damning praise of the Member for
Harwich, were utterly unfounded. He (Mr, Sheil)
trusted. however, that the Government would take an
early opportunity of disabusing the Irish people, and
xlivesf that • fierce and determined resentment, which
would be the result of even a suspicion that it was in-
tended-Au betray the interests of the country.—(Hear,
hear.) lie (Mr. Sheil) utterly repudiated the idea that
Churchpro-peity was not under the controul of the Legis-
lature.. • What had the English Government done in Ca-
,oada? The. Secretary for Ireland had been there, and he
saw that while, a Catholic was subject to tithes, a Protestant
was.exempt ; and if the latter bought the property of the
former; be held it discharged from tithes.—(Hear, hear.)
Did principles depend on the latitude and longitude, and
did the Secretary for Ireland consider that to be robbery
d'n the banks of the Shannon which was only simple jus-
tice on the batiks of the St. Lawrence?—(Cheers.) But
suppose that the application of tithes could not be legiti-
mately changed—what followed ? The Church had plan-
aei•ed the'poor--what had become of the poor man's
I'Vtartita pars? It was not so ohs lete a right. It was
recognized by the Ist George I. in Ireland. While tie 'dis-
tressed clergy excited the sympathy of the Irish Secretary,
bad-he. no compassion for the hundreds of thousands of fa-
mished, houseless, and homeless peasantry, to whom, even on
the principles of churchmen, restitution should be made. Let
AlaeComnaittee look to this, and let Government remember
yloud cheers.)
utterth at iethata,uags
efoi
ul
ttho think ii n
e,
rr e opa
cifying Ireland
uno4m. Treh withoute
x
e n
must
laid to the root. Take down
threatened,
silll f(taeLimatic opposition to
.the goldenudlotmheessohfuutkhse
au establishment
bre u.nsy9lmoral
el
;iearthquakewhole
they
c,et
withhinatruin,—(Loud
ne
titkeo, of which this motion was stated to be the conse-
vence, was only of a piece with the systematic opposition
which had been offered to education in Ireland, during the
last few years. The fact was, that the people of Ireland
Were not at all unwilling to pay tithes to the Protestant
cleigy there, but they were forbidden to do so by the same
persons who bad prohibited them from taking advantage of
the benefits of the system of education offered to them b);
the Kildare-place society, and the present Government
was not ashamed to be connected and in communication
with the individuals who acted in such a manner. His

be(' .ut tie woul
(led to a m
he
',resent systen
re diffi Pen to the cle
, under 101.,
al*. In this wa
without diffic
d of
brO Proceedingste
, ,ect. ,ou mode
or s and bur
itrod°4l was on
d, trouble
imhitino !hand
but a
ntrarf4t
n„nit
itheend Wig
quarte
knot, cl''ea might
~,irst mode • I
iesel en_
-I,sirts woul
)onees,
Attie cause w
Gerk(l°_e, both p
ppoie'tith_ed, and tl
were
red re Would be
EL, r
tanate enoc
tcue,
original so
Bat at once the
uiln :I likewise o
11,glen seldon
he 11 0, of grey
he i_runti equity.
„.7 remove
y solvent a
thisdoer y mod
incr. h°, pock
rkl," the p
aoservatio
Itsti in the
to it
that must of
!het who then
xl of ,kWILI a tax
:ours` tl on success
.4,,,_ergYcoan, e
of of tithes
beerl'etweenh
iou i 4 t ' thew be
rtuoit! ttl interesi
Inv i °.,tinfavoura
said so Mies, whi
I so, IT the other
mph ta,bed betty
irishio4 di "e entreat
hts (4.littent to cr
t.arnent to
Lptylitorr:
naturally
they toners and
tide at th
stin
th j t
4'4111e a del
or.
Noes, thi
:11 - wh
yllu
d the 4tln Y
perp
d threug
the tz:4ght Ifon f
erecrt
:tor], o
t cled, s ject—a
t-
it d :he was
d, abuses
.ge, Tha
ressiO tug the tit
the
lit:iy; it left
rout, Pariah,
eta when h
asidert 'tclLt)'• Fron
e woo, ti,474 felt
lour; "ad been
dell!' Right I
ipc tly Where it
their ttit grievane
f it /114,, to be Lir
11,, ti,,ces we
Aliu 11 ~rotegat
f p$ 144:4 rem
the bo 'till he
it °lO. tai this ay
f the Le ht refer
Yie fr
did ad recen
t
e co° ,astse, ° See
!sett, ri111""--from
last tilwh(
,st Ow to d adopt
„i to 4 i add any
re Pre„,,Ntttn not
tie c° Ad' but am
i foli'e°,4tra:luing
it
3, Y, by ci
theiro/44t•htYolunta
to h
nd es Ispitav,
nty, Mr. al.
de,
try, 041,
but
10(1°, sw requ
101 tlis and, "
1)
with
3 lie kqt.' great a
,ard r hoeven in
ord
the 11 4l ; for e
re ghoul
b
gi°sre,
liervedinar: 1
meat 01 at Spired the
e `!erred t
t. L o .
hp
State of
d a
she rfthnt .1, dill
turhPyij tei,,ePenson
elO _ , in at,