The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-13 00:00:00

1.0.3...

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 12
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
five o'clock.
A Message from the Commons by Mr. HOME and others,
asked for a conference with their Lordships on the expediency
of abolishing the present mode of engrossing Acts of Parlia-
ment in black letter, and substituting a plain round band.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, the conference
was agreed to be held forthwith in the Committee-room, No.
5, and the Lord Privy Seal, the Duke of Ilamilton, Viscount
Lorton, the Earl of Albemarle, and the Bishop of —, were
appointed to conduct the same.
Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the prisoners
in the Fleet, in favour of a Bill for abolishing imprisonment
for debt.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE postponed his motion for the pro-
duction of the names of the gentlemen recommended to the
Magistracy, by Town Councils, to the Home Office, from
Monday to Tuesday next.
WAR IN SPAIN.
Before the Lords appointed to hold the conference hai pro-
ceeded to meet the Commons,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose. He said it was
with considerable difficulty and reluctance that he endeavoured
to offer a few observations upon the subject of our Foreign
Policy. He vas sorry to bring forward such an impor-
tant subject so early in the Session, but, as he had been
precluded from offering a few observations on that part of the
Speech which referred to Spain, he felt that he was bound tc
take an early opportunity of calling their Lordships'
attention to the matter. He had on many occasions
been obliged to animadvert upon the refusal of all information
from the Government, and the indifference with which he had
been treated by the Noble Viscount, when he had felt it his
duty to ask any question relative to Spain. Last Session the Noble
Lord, when alluding to the convention of Lord Eliot, had said
that there was no doubt but that it would save all English-
men engaged in the cause. Events had shown his ignorance,
and be must say that-there seemed to be a great deal of in-
difference on the part of the Government to the question. They
bad been loud in their vituperation of Dan Carlos for the
order he had put forth ; but it was a well-known fact that he
bad not had recourse to such a severe measure, until he was
driven to it by the brutalities of the Christino Generals—it
was a mere matter of retaliation. He was of opinion
that the immediate object of that part of the Speech
which related to Spain—the Government meant to have it
understood that the Government of Spain by its prudence,
firmness, snii. vigour, would soon be enabled to restore peace
to the Peninsula. Surely then the House ought to be
put in possession of the grounds for such a hope. Within
eight months there had been in Spain no less than five or six
heads of administrations—the last of whom he believed had
been transported from the neighbourhood of the Stock Ex-
change—and what had been his course? He had first of all
tried to raise an army of 100,000 men, and not one-tenth of
that number had responded to the call. With respect to
his finance, it was stated that he had promulgated a plan con-
cocted in his own brain, but which he had not yet divulged. He
had dissolved the Cortes, which only a few months before he
had called upon for a vote of confidence. He had seen his army
marched through Vittoria to the mountains and again igno-
miniously driven back. Were these grounds for such a
a hope as was expressed in the Speech ? Only a few months
ago they had heard or seen a Speech delivered by the Foreign
Secretary in another place, to which he would now
allude, for the purpose of shewing what confidence
could be placed in the prophesying of that Noble Lord.
The Noble Lord had stated that be looked upon the success
of Don Carlos as impossible—that there were only 10,000 or
12,000 men in arms against the Government in one or two of
the remote provinces of Spain—that it was only to put down
those partial and local insurrections that their efforts were to
be made—that the resistance of the Queen's authority had
been confined to two or three particular provinces, and
that no disturbance had broken out. Would the Noble
Secretary now say that no other province had declared in
favor of Don Carlos, and that disturbances had broken out in
no other provinces? In addition to the 10,000 or 12,000 in
arms in Basque and Navarre, he could tell the Government
there were 80,000 or 90,000 ; and with such statements as
these, how was it possible they could express confidence in the
prudence,vigor, and firmness of the present government of Spain?
He called upon his Majesty's Ministers to show in one instance
in which the Government of Spain had manifested prudence,
vigour, or firmness. There was nothing mentioned in his Ma-
jesty's Speech relative to the Belgians. Was he to congratu-
late the Noble Lord opposite that the question with Hol-
land was decided? Were they to express such confidence as
they were called upon to do, he had no hesitation in saying
that it would meet with the most perfect derision through-
out the whole of Europe.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")—
There were no doubt many Noble Lords, who might be so
very deeply interested in the domestic policy of their
own country, that their attention was not awakened to
Foreign affairs ; but he Would say, look to those great
allies who had carried this country through the great strug-
gle in which she bad been . engaged. What would those
peat allies say when they found it was declared
by his Majesty's Speech that the firmness, prudence,
and vigour of the Government of Spain gave a confi-
dent hope of a speedy termination of the warfare ? When
he found these passages in the Speech, deeply in-
terested as he felt in the Foreign policy of Europe—
when he felt further the degradation in which a profession had
been placed by the mode in which the warfare had been
carried on —carried on in a manner that would certainly
throw shame and defeat, and everything that was disgraceful,
on the British troops, and give the praise of any victory to
the Spaniards--he could not refrain from bringing the subject
forward.—(Her, hear.) Then, as to the measures which
it had been stated in another place, were adopted for the
purpose of alleviating distress and privation.—( Hear.)
The Secretary of State, who had such influence with the
Queen, bail stated that he had made application for the relief
of the prisoners, and requested they might be released. This
was stated in answer to a letter to the Bishop of Leon, in
which the Noble Secretary instantly departed from the suavi-
tory mode. He could not conceive how the Noble Lord de-
fended that letter. Such being the case, he hoped the
Noble Viscount opposite would be so good as to place the let-
ter of the Noble Lord, and the answer thereto, on the
table of the House.—( Hear, hear.) If the Noble Duke had
remained in office who had acted fairly by all parties, he was
quite sure they would not have heard of all those atrocities
which bad made Europe shudder. It was in vain to deny that
the example of these butcheries was not infectious. He was
sorry that his countrymen had been induced—encouraged—by
the present Ministry to leave their country on such a detest-
able mission.—( Hear, hear.) His wish was to show to the
people of England that his Majesty's Government, instead
of boldly carrying on a war—( Hear, hear)—had done
it in a manner degrading to the character of the English na-
tion and to every Englishman. For what was the fact?
Why after Don Carlos had spared the lives of
several Englishmen, the British Legion, the soldiers of
Col. Evans, returned to Vittoria (gunk, and massacred
upwards of 150 Spaniards. It was true the officers interferedt
to prevent them, but it was of no avail. If therefore the
officers could not prevent the men from adopting such a
course, what must the state of their discipline he? In his
opinion Don Carlos had carried on his operations with vigour
and firmness, while there was none on the other side.—
(Hear, hear) He was in hopes that his Majesty's Govern-
ment would have been induced to have pursued a very diffc-•
rent course ; such not being the case, he must enter
his protest against that part of his Majesty's Speech
which related to the affairs of Spain.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
He thought the House of Commons, reformed as itevas, would be
very unwilling to supply the means of carrying on a war in
Spain. such as that which was now waging there. He would
when he obtained the retuans for which be moved, enter into
a full developement of the question.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought the paragraph in his Majesty's speech on this subject was
se fatal a one as had ever been in any such document before.
T e Yo'ile Marquis concluded by moving for the return of
adsich he bad given notice.
Lord MELBOURNE said there could be no objection
to the retui us moved for. The assistance afforded tcr the
Queen of Spain was distinctly undertaken to be paid for ;
and he might remark, that the Duke of Wellington
when in office declared himself ready to act as the Government
of the present day were acting, should the circumstances in which
Spain is now placed occur. That was conduct in keeping with
t'he general line of policy adopted by the Noble Duke,
when he found the interests of the country, or the
honour of the nation, pledged on the subject. With
respect to the supply being unlimited, he would say
the agreement was to give such assistance as the circum-
stances of the case required. The extent to which they
went should be regulated by the events which might occur, and
by the discretion of the Government, at the same time with a
due regard to public economy, and the condition of the country.
He thought it strange that the Noble Marquis had not taken an
earlier opportunity of bringing the subject forward, and it ap-
peared somewhat extraordinary that he had not spoken of the
paragraph at the proper time, viz., when the address
was moved.—( !leer, hear.) He could not complain
of a want of opportunity, for their Lordships knew
the facility which was given for the introduction of any
subject at any time.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to
what he inferred from the expression in the Speech regarding
France, he ( Lord Melbourne) would remark, that instead of
being calculated to lead to the supposition that jealousies existed
between this country and other Powers, it was quite
the contrary ; but was it not natural to expect that,
recollecting the rivers of blood which had floseod in
contests between England and France--(Hear)—that some
congratulatory expression should be used, that events enabled
them to assure the world of the existence of a state of things
which gave an earnest of the future happiness and per-
manent union of these countries ?—( Loud cheering. )
The Government had made many applications to Don Carlos
with respect to the Decree, to which reference had been
made, and the answer had always been, that the Decree was
still in force, and would be continued to be executed. He had
not heard of the atrocious cruelties charged upon the Christinos
by the Noble Lord, but he would certainly make it hip duty to
inquire with respect to them. The Noble Lord hadilien gone
on to vilify the British troops serving in Spain, and he had said
that they were a disgrace to the very name of a soldier. From
all that, he (Lord Melbourne) had heard of the conduct
of those* troops, it had been such as would:reflect honour upon
those soldiers which the Noble Marquis had had the honour of
leading in the same country. He-could not agree in the princi-
ple laid down in that House, that the Parliament was not to
be called upon to pledge itself to
any
tiltsyst,frit,t?Lbe called upon to act. Nor
principles
eouldupon which
he
agre e
wi
a:
. whafiralisbck"stated in the other House, that we had no
- i either in i
1,...* . right to spec
1!.. anent of another 'country. There were
which it would be necessary to do both.
t.' '' ml ;which
4,,„, ciyopmstances .n the Government of S
..,,.
, ?..:. pinll Consideringoeca occasions
i ot
hues
now stood,

244

• - .
he for one felt convinced that the language of the King's Sprech
was fully borne out. He believed he had answered all the
points made by the Noble Marquis. He had only, in con-
clusion, to say, that be had no objection to'offer to the motion
of the Noble Lord.
The Earl of ABERDEEN was sure that their Lordships
would concur with what had been stated by the Noble Mar-
quis and the Noble Viscount, as to the horror they felt at
the atrocities that had been committed in Spain. He could
not but feel sorry that his Majesty was advised to permit the
enlistment of his subjects into the service of the C4ueen of
Spain. He was sorry his Majesty's Government had
been induced to suspend an existing law for that pur-
pose. He, however, thought, on the whole it would be better
for their Lordships to let the subject drop where it
was at present, and not enter into any further discussion.
He fully concurred in what the Noble Viscount and the
Noble Marquis had asserted as to the horror and disgust
which all must equally feel at the mode of warfare carried on
in Spain.—( Hear, hear.) He deeply regretted it ; and he
was sorry to learn that those barbarities had not been confined
to the two contending parties only, but that a third party
• which had interfered between them had committed similar

atrocities.—(Hear.) Whether they might look for the ter-
mination of the existing dispute to the prudence and vigour
. .