The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-10 00:00:00

j (Hear, hear.) After all, the question would still and
! still revive—What was an able-bodied labourer ? Here
was a great practical difficulty in giving a proper answer
to that question. In order to carry out the full principle
of the Bill, they must give a ratio of wages on which all
persons should be bound to act ; and without some such
provision as this, they would be adopting a principle
which, obnoxious in England, would be perfectly
impracticable in Ireland. The Honourable Gentle-
man who had so strongly put to the House the idea of
so many labourers in Ireland standing idle on so many
thousand acres, had said, let this arrangement
be left to the board of guardians. With this sugges-
tion he quite agreed, for every Bill that had lately been
laid on the table of the House had had the effect of in-
creasing more and more the power in the hands of the
central commissioners in Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) This,
to say the least of it, was an unwholesome doctrine, and
he conceived that the greater the check given
to such a system, the better. "Wherever the
guardians did their duty, he should say
leave the arrangements of all their local affairs to local
management. Feeling that this Bill could not possibly
be amended to any efficient purpose in Ireland, he should
vote against its going into Committee.—(Hear.)
Colonel DUNNE said that, as the Honourable Mem-
ber for Stroud had expressed a willingness to have the
details of the Bill altered in Committee, he should differ
with the Honourable Member for Northamptonshire.
The Hon. and Gallant Member then went into a series of
details to show that the number of labourers employed in
the cultivation of the soil in England was greatly inferior in
proportional numbers to those employed in the cultiva-
tion of the soil in Ireland, ane said that this Bill
was divided into two parts—one, which provided that
those unions which were loaded with the relief of the
entirely destitute were to be absolved from the support
of the able-bodied paupers; and the other, that where it
was necessary to support the able-bodied poor, the rate-
payers should be relieved from the support of the desti-
tute. The Bill evidently recognised the fact n hich none
could gainsay, and that was, that they must support both
those classes of poor, either with work or without work.
He preferred the latter, and approving of the principle
of the Bill, although objecting to several of its details,
he should certainly vote for its being carried into Com-
mittee.—(Cheers.)
Lord BERNARD said that the principle of this Bill
was one which reduced itself to an absurdity. It was
neither more nor less than saying to a machine that the
machine shall work whether its work would be service-
able or not—just saying that a shoemaker should be
compelled to make shoes whether he could sell them
or not.—(Laughter.) Whether the late Govern-
ment liked to hear it or not, the Honour-
able Member for Northamptonshire had spoken
neither more nor less than the truth—that the whole
source of the evils consisted in the extent of the elec-
toral areas. In the district of Bandon which he repre-
sented there was abundant opportunity for gathering
evidence upon the subject. It was stated from one end
to another, that if the areas were reduced, they would
take the whole of the inmates out of the workhouses.—
(Hear, hear.) Thinking that the principle of the Bill
was bad, he should vote against its committal.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that nothing, he conceived,
could be more erroneous than the supposition that the
evils of Ireland were owing to the mischiefs of ex-
tended areas of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) The
object of this Bill was to give employment to the
able-bodied poor, but the question arose as to who the
able-bodied really were, for it would appear that at the
present time there were really very few able-bodied poor
left in the country, at least in the west and south. In-
deed, how could it be so, when they recollected
that the whole amount of out-dour relief given to an
able-bodied labourer was one pound of prepared Indian
meal during the twenty-four hours ? And under
that system, while the iron-hearted political ec
no-
mists of that House were day by day putting
forth their theories, the people were becoming
day by day neither more nor less than inanimate skele-
tons.—(Hear, hear.) It was with an intiniaide of plea-
sure that he had the other day heard his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer read a letter
from Mr. Rourke, the Poor-law Commissioner in Ire-
land, in which he stated that di.tress was subsiding in
Ireland, but he had a very different accouut to give, and
he would only read one extract from the Freeman's Jour-
nal of yesterday ; and it was to the effect, that at a
meeting of the guardians of the Union of Killekeen,
Mr. Daly. a guardian, had reported that a farmer
in the neighbourhood having had a mare die
from fever, in less than two hours, such was the want
in the district, the skin was off, and the people were
feeding upon the head and entrails of the animal.—
(Hear, bear.) Instances were abundantly cited of the
impoverishment of the inhabitants to such a degree that
it was only necessary to allude to one. In Ballinasloe,
generally considered one of the best towns in Ireland,
and under one of the best landlords, Lord Clontarf—and
though he differed from him in politics he
must give him that credit—in Ballinasloe it was a fact
that the inmates of the workhouse were absolutely
more numerous than the inhabitants of the town.-
-(Hear, hear.) In another case a man was carrying a
coffin to bury the body of his brother, and when he had
got about within two miles of the hovel where the dead
man lay, he sunk down in a state of exhaustion and died
upon the road ; and they were both buried together the
next day in the same grave.—(Hear, hear.) He was in-
duced to name this, the more especially because it was
notorious that throughout the whole of the distressed
districts the bodies of the dead were lying in
a state of nakedness, and the country was too
poor to procure coffins in which to bury them.
The object of the Bill was to exempt from the poor-rate
those districts which gave employment to labourers, and
to lay a charge upon grass lands which were not, but
might be cultivated in other districts, and thus while the
measure forced persons to employ the able-bodied poor,
it would also increase the amount of agricultural pro-
duce in Ireland. He looked, therefore, upon the second
reading as a fortunate, and not unfortunate mistake, and
hoped that the House would consent to the measure.
Sir A. BROOKE entirely approved of the principle
of the measure, and also of the plan in which the Hon.
Member for Stroud proposed to carry it out. He thought
that a tax might, with great justice, be placed upon ab-
sentees who did not reside six months in the country.
After a few remarks from Mr. O'FLAHERTY,
Sir H. W. BARRON entirely approved of the object
of the Bill, for every one would agree that any plan
that would give additional employment, or an additional
incentive to employment, was the great thing that was
equired for Ireland. But he was afraid that that object
would not be accomplished by the details of
the Bill. All legislation on the subject of the poor-law,
for the purpose of stimulating the employment of labour
and the investment of capital in Ireland, would be per-
fectly nugatory as long as the electoral divisions remained
in their present state.—(Hear, hear.) The crying in-
justice of the poor-law was the area of taxation, and
while that remaimed as it was, all tinkering and wed-
dling with that law would be perfectly useless.—(Hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE said he had no objection to have the
Bill referred to a Committee up stairs, and he hoped
that the House would not summarily dispose of it, as
the principle had been approved of by the majority o;
the Irish Members who had spoken, and those who ha,.
not supported it had some project of their own.
After a few words from Sir W. SOMERVILLE in
explanation,
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment 41
Against it ... 166
Majority ... ... —125
The Bill was consequently thrown out.
COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.
The second reading of this Bill was postponed until
Wednesday next.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
The Rouse went into Committee upon this Bill; Mr.
BERNAL in the chair.
Sir J. PAKINGTON intimated that it was not his
intention to proceed with the Bill:in Committee at pre-
sent; but although an adverse decision hail been come to
by the House upon those points of it to which he attached
the most importance, there was still a desire on the part
of several Hon. Members that the Bill, with its remain-
ing clauses, should be proceeded with, and he would
give notice that he would bring it in again on some
future day.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought he had reason to corn-
p!ain of the course which had beets taken with respect to
the measure by the Honourable Baronet. He distinctly
understood from the Honourable Baronet the other night
that he would give up the Bill altogether, and believing
that he would adhere to that declaration, ho (Colonel
Sibthorp) had walked away deligLted.—(Laughter.)
Being impressed with the conviction that this Bribery
Bill would not come on during the session, he told other
Honourable Gentlemen to feel as comfortable as he did.
—(Laughter)—and went away; but, to his surprise, he
subsequently, beard from the Honourable Baronet that ho
thought he would bring it on at half- past eleven o'clock
at night. There was an old saying„ " Catch a weasel
asleep;"—(Laughter.) And he (Colonel Sibthorp)
would not be caught asleep again..--(Laughter.) He
would trust to no one at all; he would. say to Honourable
Gentlemen, be on your guard, for there was so much
chicanery going on it was impossible to know what to
believe.—(Laughter.) He should in future watch the
Honourable Baronet as a cat watch.es a mouse, and op-
pose him in every measure of a similar nature.
Mr. VERNON SMITH thought it. would be advisable
for the Honourable Baronet to state. precisely what he
intended to do with respect to the B ill.
Sir J. PAKINGTON thought the House would agree
with him in thinking that nothing had fallen from the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman the lember for Lincoln
that was worthy of notice.
Colonel SIBTHORP—Hear, heal %—(Laughter.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON—With ri Ispect to what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentlem an the Member for
Northampton, he admitted there was ; some practical dif-
lisulty in dealing with the matter. As he had before
said, it was not his intention, in consequence of the
v:sion on it former day, to prom .d with the declara-
tions, but he intended to proceed wi th other parts of the
Bill —(Hear. hen:.) It was only in deference to the
opinion of very higts authorities in the House, that he
intended to persevere with the latter. portions of his Bill.
He did not mean to prees then the ed .rlier clauses, but it
would still be competent for any llt a. Member to take
what course he pleased wits.' respect ; to them.
Mr. GREENE suggsted,;hat the , better course would
be to strike out in Comtnitte the v thole of the first six
el eusea, and leave the reEr...irrizr of the Bill to oe dealt
with on a future occasion.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said, thas t he had no objection
whatever to that course.
Clauses 1 and 2 were then stru t.k: out.
On the question that clause 3 sl ,an d part of the Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP said, the t he certainly could
not understand what the Comn sittee were about.—
(Laughter)—and moved that the t -o'hairman report pro-
gress, and obtain leave to sit again.
Mr. V. SMITH thought that if t be Hon. and Gallant
Member wished to get rid of the Bi, ',ll he could not do so