The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-07 00:00:00

ing in the total the sum 0152,839/. The sum produced by the
sale of the perpetuities amounted to 89.000/. The expense for
the year 1834 was no less than •51,0001., and for the two years
the expense was 74,255/., the receipts for that year being
only 32,476/. The total expenditure therefore was 125,294 e,
and receipts 52,8391., leaving a difference of not less than
72,455/. Another most important item which constituted a
part of the • revenues. under the superintendence of the Com-
missioners was the tax upon the Church. Common justice
would not permit the application of that tax to the existing
holders of benefices ; but the estimate which was made by
the commissioners of the receipts under this head was 22,0001.;
yet such was the state of their funds, such was the inadequacy
of their means for the object for which they were appointed,
that instead of 22,000/. the receipts were 7/. ss. 6d. Many
of the expenses incurred in the year 1835 had not been liqui-
dated, and were left to be paid out of the income of the year
1836, which ought to be employed in meeting the current ex-
penses of the year. There was another heavy charge upon
the Commissioners, arising out of one of the. features of the
unfortunate state of the sister country, the non-payment of
legal dues.—( Hear, hear.) So violent had been the opposi
tier, to the payment of the vestry cess that nothing could
withstand it, and the refusal to pay was consequently success-
ful. Here, again, the burden -fell upon the Commissioners,
who had already paid 46,000/. ; but, having borrowed the
sum of Government, and being compelled to repay it, they
availed themselves of that clause, very properly introduced
into the Bill, which authorised them to • borrow sums to the
amount of loo,ogoi. The repairs of churches was another
point to . which he felt anxious to call their Lordships'.
attention. He remembered when the Bill was introduced
they were told that that was an object of the greatest
consequen'ee, and that the longer some provision on the
subject was delayed the greater would be the expense
of carrying it into effect at last. But now their Lord-
ships would see that there were eo funda- in the hands of tho
Commissioners which would enable 'them to execute that
which they themselves styled " one of their most Onerous
duties." The Noble Lord then proceeded to real extracts
from their report to the effect " that though there were
a vest number of applications made to them, yet such
was the state of their funds they had been compelled to make
only a selection of the most pressing cases; and for those pur-
poses alone they bad contracted engagements to the amount of
75,0001., which they proposed to meet in the following man-
ner :-21,000/- of that sum they intended to defray by reserv-
ing so much from the incoming funds ; to meet the demand
for the remaining 54,0001. they would afetin avail themselves
of Cte powers afforded them by the Bill, of borrowing money
from the Government. Having, then, already borroive(l
46,00 A, it appeared they were now going to borrow 54,000/.
to execute that which was a very essential part of the duties
assigned to them. He could not help thinking that it was
almost a case of bankruptcy ; he would not use that word,
because it might, perhaps, be understood as throwing some
impUtation upon the Commissioners ; but at least it was
anything but a case of financial prosperity. Powers
had been given to them for increasing the small li-
vings, and making up to the Clergymen the sum of
2001. a year, which had been deemed by the Legis-
lature not an inordinate reward for their services. But to-
wards these objects they had not been able, with their own
funds, to effect anything. Out of Bishop Boulter's fund some
assistance had, he believed, been rendered, but then that was
a private fund, and had nothing on earth to do with the com-
pact entered into between the Church and State by the provi-
sions of this measure. On the subject of glebe.housee also, it
appeared from the report that out of 2,405 parishes in Ireland.
there were 536 that had ne glebe-house at all. What, he
would ask, was the use of a Minister without a residence; he
did net want them to preVide mansions for the Clergy, hut he did
say that there ought to be provided for them quiet, respectable
houses, in which a gentleman might live in some degree of
eon-icon and independence. There was also in Ireland 210
benefices in which there was no church ; and if then they
were divided into parishes, out of the whole 2,408 parishes,
their Lordships would see how great a proportion were with-
out churches altogether.• Applications, the Commissioners
stated, had been made to them for sixty new churches,rand
several persons had declared themselves ready to subsre;the
from 601. to 600/. That then, together with
.tlos (-
there that there were 210 benefices without any church, at: no). „An-
cient grounds for some further provielon on .t.he subject ; and
when it was remembered that in no I"ees than 1.,200 parishes
the number of Protestants wasincreasing, as by
reference to the returns oc. positively'lB34, in comparison of 'those of
1831, would be seete__( Loud cheers)—it was impossible to
conceive a case Inure loudly calling for support than that to
which he had taken the liberty of calling- their Lordships' at-
tention.—( Hear, hear.) He believed he had said all that was
requisee--eperhaps mcre.—( Hear.) He had shown to their
Lordships the object -of the Bill—he had shown to them its,
provisions—!ie had reminded them also of the nature of the
compact by which it had been supported ; he had reminded
them- also of the nature of the compact which, by the enact--
rtamt- of that measure; bail been Cittiyrtrtt-lta, between,tito
Chur,:h and the State, and the obligations which that compact
imposed, he, for one, would not shake an —( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord concluded by moving two resolutions, the latter
of wideh had only suggested itself to him that meriting, but
which was merely a continuation of the one of which he had
given notice. The motion was for returns respecting the
funds at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in
Ireland.
The Earl of HA RROWBY begged to suggest to the
Noble Earl whether he thought it pwsible that the returns
could be received in time for the discussion which would take
place upon the subject ?
The Ilarl of RIPON did not want the general returns;
but wily the balance-sheet.

Lord MELBOURNE said it cNlainly was not his inten-
tion to offer any opposition to the motion of the Noble Lord.
He agreed entirely with many of the statements that had been
mad,: by the Noble Lord. Ho agreed entirely with him that in
the present state of the question it was highly neceesary that
the fullest, clearest, and most perfect information should be af-
ferded to that House upon the subject. He agreed also en-
tirely with an observation made by the Noble Lord a the com-
mencement of his speech, that it was the most narrow, the
most impolitic, the most insufficient way Of considering the
question, to'hold that tithes were in any respect the.pro-
t:erty of the Minis,tet. They were not the property of the Mi.
raster, but OW property of the faithful—the property of the
whole eammunity—who wero connected together by the same
bond of faith.—(Ministetial cheers.) They were, in fact,
public property, which had hc.•en set aside b the piety and
y
charity of the public for the maintenance and
security of the
Established Church— (Hear, bear, licar)—property which
it was in the power, and which it was the policy of the
State to diminish if it were too large, to increase if it were
too small, and to direct and appropriate to the true object nor
which it was intended. He entirely concurred in that I!;i:eacral.
principle which he had always mamtaitied, and whiria was the
only safe principle upon which the Legislature cr-uld proceed.
lie entirely concurred also as to the history which had been
givcii of the Act of Parliament that that House, he believed, in the year 1831 as to the object of that measure, and
,as.to the moans for carrying il'aat object into effect ; but
-he must bet, leave to say, tile_ the instatieieny of the funds
had been Gown and,Pre'jteted when the measure was first
broaght into their
.140r-asuips' House.—(Cheers.) It was then
ht
obvious: 'teat those funds must for some time be ina-
OegiLite for aie purposes which the Commissioners were to
execute. The Noble Lord, however, had talked of a compact
bete een the Church and State; now, he would say, that
this was no more of a compact than env other Act of 'Parlia-
teent.-4Cries of " Hear, hear.") If it was meant that
by the adoption of that measure the Legislature precluded
itself from taking any other steps in regard to the subject un-
til all the provisions and stipulations of that measure had
been punctually fulfilled, then,. he denied the assertion al-
together.—(llear, hear.) It was no compact whatever, but
the matter was left fairly open for the Legislature to deal with
it as it might subsequently thing fit. The very argument
‘04k;;1 had been employed by the Noble Lord, that very great
tardiness in the operation of the present measure, that insuffi-
ciency for the purposes for which it was intended, was, be
could not help thinking, rather a proof that some other provi-
sions were actually wanting, some further measure positively
necessary.—( Cheering.) He should not Enter into any of the
details which had been stated by the Noble Earl in respect to
the proceedings of the Commissioners. He fully agreed that
i 0 the future consideration of, and deliberation %Von, that
jest, it would be necessary for their Lordships to bear in -mind.
the object of that Act and its operation. He felt re...), happy
that tiro Noble Earl had called for that informat;•,,,, which it
was his most anxious wish to assist in proeurip
The E,rj of RIPON said a few word-,in explanation, and
the 'motion was then agreed to,.
Adjourned till Monday.
- -

IfOUS,C.F COMMONS MAY
,6.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
SOUTH DURHAM RAILWAY.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from Finsbury
in favour of the South Durham Railway Bill ; also a petition
in favour of the London and Blackwall Railway Bill.
ABBOTSLEY(HUNTINGDON)INCLOSURE BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
PERLETHORP CHAPELRY.
Mr. GRANVILLE VERNON moved the second reading
of this Bill.
Colonel SIBTEIORP opposed the Bill, on the ground that
it would be injurious to the interests ofthc Established Church.
He moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second
time this eav six months.
Mr, VRIINON supported the second reading of the Bill,
and distended the conduct of the promoters of the measure.
The Church Commissioners had manifested a disposition to
do all they could to assist the working clergy, and, therefore,
he believed the opposition to the Bill arose merely from a
desire to defeat the benevolent intentions of Lord Alanvers.
which he sought to carry into effect by the Bill. The Act of
Parliament would merely relmedy a grievance f;:rwhich °the, wise
there would be no cure. Lord Manvers, throughout the entire
t
u
transaction, sought only the interest of the Church, nh_oot,
ou
regard to private advantage. A negociation etas et
etontof
an i
but unsuccessfully, to procure the assent or the
arrangement which would have saved Lord Manvers great n-