The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

cessions were made tranquillity would be established. Was
there any precedent in history for such an assumption ? Mr.
O'Connell spoke openly of the ulterior views of the Association,
and what he would ask was meant by such expressions as " the
mockery of paying tithes,to a Clergyman without a flock ?
(Hear, hear!)—The attainment of the object would unhinge
the whole of society, and open all the claims which still existed
in tradition to the confiscated property of formertimes. The
Hon. Member required documents in order to make out a case
for the present bill ; but he (Mr. Lockhart) contended, that ac-
cording to the Law of Parliament, notoriety was a sufficient
ground on which to legislate, and if the acts of that assembly
were not notorious, on what did the Hon. Gentlemen opposite
build their character of the proceedings of the Association ? If
the Catholic claims were conceded while that body existed,
what change would be effected in Parliament ! The House of
Lords would be overawed by the Association—and in the House
of Commons, even if 111 r. O'Connell were returned, he would
find himself a mere puppet in the hands of others. As it was
during the reign of the Jacobin club in France. He (Mr.
Lockhart) should not touch on the general question, but to ob-
serve, that if granted, it would not be satisfactory to those
for whose satisfaction it was now sought. The power thus
conferred, would only enable the Catholics to act more effec-
tively against the Church Establishment and in iiiirlermining
the property of the country. The Bill should have his decided

,stipikort.
Mr. BA NICE'S, Jun ." rO's.6 ' to 'Address the frouve Ott was
occasionally inaudible in the Gallery. So well as we could
collect, he stated that he thought one great advantage was
gained by the length to which the present discussion had
extended. The impression that the object of the Catholic As-
sociation was intimidation, the very moderate proceedings of
that body at their last meeting—the account of which reached
London—was well calculated to remove. -He sincerely wish-
ed that their past conduct had been characterized by like
temperance and propriety. The speech of the Noble Lord,
who presided at that meeting, and whose moderation in com-
mon with the rest of his family could not be too highly eu-
logized, showed that whatever might be the decision of Par.
liament, the Catholics would act in obedience to it. He (Mr.
Bankes) had great pleasure in noticing that result, which would
operate beneficially throughout the country. While he was on
his legs, he should take leave to remark, that the Honourable
Member far Knaresbmough, whose speech formed so large a
part of the debate of last night, had asserted sophistry to con-
stitute an integral and essential portion of the proceedings in
that House. No one he thought who had attended to the Hon.
Member on the present question could doubt the perfect since-
rity of the observation. In endeavouring -to extract or blunt
the sting of the invocation on the address to the Catholics, and
also in defending the interference of the Association in the
administration of Justice, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had exemplified his own position most happily. He, (Mr.
Bankes) however, had yet to learn, that calling forth vice into
conflict with vice, and setting opposite passions to struggle
with each other in Courts of Law, was conducive either to
virtue or justice. lie regretted that on the present subject, which
was quite a distinct one from the general question of Catho-
lic relief, so much relative to the latter had been introduced ;
by that means the debate had been prolonged. The question
was, whether the Catholic Association was an unconstitutional
assembly or not; and in his opinion an affirmative case had
been satisfactorily made out.—(Hear, hear !)—To turn from a
grave to a ridiculous subject, he would call to the recollection
of the House a statement made last night by an Hon. Member
respecting the order list for books at the University Club. The
Hon. Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) said that the Life of Harriet
Wileen was Marked accepted, while a plain Bible was rejected.
—( o—Though0—Though he represented a University, he was not
anxious to appear in that House in his accadernic gown and
cap, at the same time he thought it due to the Club in question
to state that he called and asked if the Life of Harriet -Wilson
was in the library, and was informed that no such book had
ever been here.—(Much laughter,)—The servant of whom he
inquired mentioned indeed that it had been asked for by many
gentlemen, but that unless some one brought a copy in his
pocket, none had entered the House. The subject seemed to
have been investigated with so much nicety, he (Mr. Bankes)
took it to be a good opportunity for 'showing upon what loose
allegations the Henn was sometimes required to form its judg-
ment.—(A laugh) e .
A ll E MBE it, whose name could not be learnt, addressed a few
words to the House in support of the bill, and concluded with a
panegyric upon the public and private virtues of the Lord
Chancellor.
Mr. GRENFELL should vote for the proposed Bill, in the
hope that some provision would be found in it for preventing
the collection of the Catholic Rent. lie requested, however,
it might not be supposed that in doing so he bound himself to
the other parts of the measure—his approbation of which must
depend on their peculiar characteristics. For twenty-three
years which he had been in Parliament he had voted for the
cause of the Irish and English Catholics—and so long as he
held a seat he should vote in the same manner. Nothing less
can, nothing less ought to satisfy the Catholics. They only
sought their rights, and in and out of the House he should
support them with all his power. Let the House look at the
relative situation of six millions of Catholics and one million
of Protestants. He trusted the Catholics would never sub-
mit.
He (Mr. (Irenfell) was descending into the evening of
life ; but if he was on the bed of death, his last prayer should
be, that the Catholics might be successful in their persevering
endeavours.
Mr. ROBERTSON said, if the Catholic Association were
legal and constitutional, it ought to be upheld ; but, if' not, it
ought to be put down. The Right lion, the Attorney-General
for Ireland had told the House that the claims of the Catholics
were founded in right and justice, and defied any one to pro-
duce a rational argument against them. Was it nut consistent,
then, with the spirit of' the Constitution that they should ob-
tain those claims ? The suppression of the Association had
been argued on the same grounds as that of other Associations ;
but each should stand on its own footing. The Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland stated, that the landed gentlemen were
adverse to the Catholic rent. That in his (Mr. Robertson's)
opinion, was the origin of the present Bill. The grievances of
the country were owing to the conduct of the Landed Gen-
tlemen. If the peasantry of Ireland had been protected from
the Tithe Proctor and other oppressions by the Landed Gen-
tlemen, the Douse should not now be called upon to put down
the Catholic Association. The Protestant Clergy of that part of
the United Kingdom were not to blame for the sufferings of
the peasantry. The evidence then on the table of the House,
shewed that in most cases they had from time to time relin-
quished one-third of the tithe as a concession to the wants of
the. eople. But, notwithstanding these concessions the Irish
peasant remained oppressed and in the loweet state of degra-
dation. These evils arose from the landed interest—and be-
cause the Catholic Rent was applied to redress them. The Ca-
tholic Association was to be put down. The Hon. Members for
New Ross and Plympton (Mr. Doherty and Mr. North) eulo-
gized the Administration of Justice in Ireland, and he supposed
it merited the panegyric. But what benefit did the unfortunate
thus derive who were unable to pay the expences of obtaining
justice. The " Rent" supplied the deficiency—afforded the
protection which the Country Gentlemen ought to have given
to the people. These Gentlemen put the tithe, which the
Clergy remitted, into their pockets. The Right Hon. the
President of the Board of Controul said emancipation only
would establish peace and prosperity in Ireland, but it would
require much more to produce that effect, for nothing could
or ought to satisfy the Catholics but being made not inferior
in any point of view to the rrst of the community. Lord
Clare had said, in discussing the Union, that if not an Irish
Member were returned to the British Parliament, he would
confide the welfare of the nation to the English Legislature.
Ile (Mr. it.) believed if there was not a single Member from
Ireland in that House it would be better governed than at
present. The Right Hon. and Learned Attorney-General
maintained that the separation of the two countries was chi-
merical ; but was not Portugal once an integral part of Spain,
and if justice be not done the Irish, they will seize an oppor-
tunity to exact it. The Irish Attorney-General said that the
longer emancipation was delayed the more difficulty in grant-
ing it. Was it to be withheld then for ever. Whatever mis-
chief might attend the collection of the Catholic Rent, the
Association ought to be put down by concessions, by repealing
not by enacting laws.—(Hear •
Sir J. NEW PORT, after the length to which the debate bad
extended, could not flatter himself with the hope of adding
much to what had already been advanced. He rose, after
the most serious attention to the arguments on both sides,
more confirmed in the opinion which he expressed on the se-
cond day of the Session of the impropriety of deferring; by
defining a great and final measure nor securing the peace
and safety of the country. During a somewhat long life,
in which he had been a partaker in the fortunes of Ireland, he
could assure the House that a more fearful project than the pre-
sent never was attempted. They !trove to stifle complaints,