The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-24 00:00:00

ficers to the. Court. He then went on to the defects of
the common law judicature. The inefficiency of the pro-
cess—the want of power in the Judges to compel appear-
ance of witnesses—the evil constitution of the Court, where
the Judge was, in the intervals of his office, engaged as an ad-
vocate, and subjected to the effect of a frequent communication
with the attorneys. He considered the right of appeal to judg-
ment in a neighbouring English county, or by certiorari di-
rectly to the King's Bench, to cast a great reproach on the de-
fects of the judicature. He corrected the error of the notion so
generally apprehended, of the costs being cheaper in these
Courts—whereas, in fact, the causes were far more expensive.
The Judges, too, were frequently of no very long standing at
the bar ; some of them never held a brief before they sat on the
Bench. There were other and more general objections. The
Pppointments were supposed to be made from political motives;
the Judges might hold places during pleasure; they might have
seats in that House. The would be suspected of acting in them
subserviently to the views of Government. A great evil aris-
ing out of these judicatures was the vast increase of attorneys,
who abounded beyond any proportion to the population
there and in other parts. He came to the remedies which
be meant to propose. He thought that little could be done
in a legislative way to redress the evils; but it would be quite
possible to reform some of them. He proposed to abolish the
present offices of Judges, and appoint a smaller number with
equal rank and salaries with the present Judges of Westmin-
ster-Halt. As the business of their own county would not be
much, he proposed to employ them in assisting the Judges of
the King's Bench. They might hear causes coming up from
the Insolvent Debtors' Court; attend to the justification of
bail ; relieve the Court of King's Bench from some part of its
criminal jurisdiction. In cases in aggravation and mitigation
of punishment, with three Counsel on each side, with long
speeches, it would afford great relief to the Bench. He men-
tioned a case where some libellers had failed to receive judg-
ment because the Court was not full enough. This could never
happen it' his measure were adopted. He proposed, if the House
agreed to the Committee, to submit souse resolutions, the pur-
port of which would be, that all causes for the existence of se-
parate jurisdictions had ceased ; that it was expedient to equal-
ize and assimilate the judicature in every part of the country ;
—that the Judges ought uniformly to have the same rank,
practice, and experience to qualify them ; that it was desirable
to appoint two more Judges to Westminster Hall, and abolish
the Chief Justiceship of Chester and those of the Welch judi-
cature ; and lastly (in which Resolution he followed the literal
expression in the 34th Henry III), that the fines on process
ought in every case to be the same as in the Courts of England.
After expatiating on the advantages of this plan, both as to
reforming the 'SI dab judicature, and expediting the business
of the Court of Ki,ng's Bench, he concluded by moving,
" That the Reports of Select Committees upon Welch Judica-
ture be referred to a Committee of the whole House."
Mr. BARHAM seconded the motion. He was firmly con-
vinced that there were great practical disadvantages in the
present system. He thought the easiest and safest Reform
would be the abolition of the judicatures. The question
was, why should Wales, differing in no respect from the
other parts of the empire, be continued under a separate ju-
dicature ? There might be some reason for it in the time of
Henry VIII. He could find none sufficient now, either in
the mourtainous nature of the country, for there were
very high hills in England—nor in the language, for the
proceedings were not in Welch—nor in any other of the
reasons given by fanciful and unthinking tourists. The
chief argument in favour of a change was, that the Judges
failed of that respect which was paid them in England; they
were never seen in a solemn and disinterested character ; they
were suspected of political bias. It was no argument against a
change—it rather told the other way for the advocates of the
measure—that the people did not express a wish for it. The
people might have been excited to petition for it very easily.—
He hoped that there would never be any clamour of petitioning
used for the purpose. As a striking proof of the growth of
attornies, lie had heard that the Carmarthen election was
turned by a band of twenty-six attomies appearing suddenly
- I for the Hon. Gentleman opposite. He cordially supported the
, motion. _ _ _

Mr. JONES corrected•the statement of the Hon. Member.
The twenty-six attorneys were equally divided between him
and his opponent. He praised the candour, clearness, temper,
and moderation of the Mover. He could not assent to the
motion. He considered that there was not proof enough of the
evil which had hem complained of, and that the judicature
could not be bad under which Wales. had existed so long, and
for some time, at least, flourished. He thought there could be
no ground of complaint in the deficiency of the equitable judi-
cature of Wales, because the plaintiff was at liberty to take his
case into what Court he pleased : it was his own fault if he took
it into &defective one. He justified the practice of those Courts
on the evidence of a great many respectable
.persons, who,
holding or having held offices in them, gave opinions before the
Committee in favour of the continuance of them. All, with
the exception of Mr. Owen, thought the Welsh judicature had
much to recommend it, from its cheapness. All the witnesses
before the Committee of the House, said, the expences were
one-third less than in England. The lion. Member bore tes-
timony to the respectability of the profession in Wales, and
enumerated along list of names of great legal eminence, who had
practised and presided inthe administration of justice there.—
With respect to the criminal jurisprudence, lie was astonished
at the observations of the Hon. Gentleman opposite ; and he
(Mr. Jones) would contend that not a single instance could be
named where justice had not been administered to every cul-
prit with as great regularity as in England, or any other coun-
try in the world. He agreed with the Hon. Mover, that the
Welsh Judges should not be appointed from any political mo-
tive, and should approve of their being appointed by the Lord
Chancellor, and being precluded from sitting in the House of
Commons ; but he thought that was no reason for meddling
with a jurisdiction so long established. For these reasons he
should oppose the motion.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said the question was, w'iether
the people of the principality had not as good a right to have
their Judges appointed under the circumstances, which pre-
sumptively would secure (from the mode of appointment)
as fitting persons as the Judges of England, and it was
frivolous to give a list of names of half a dozen persons, un-
exceptionable certainly in every respect, except as they were
perching there only for a time in their way to higher stations.
If the question had been for the abolition of the Star Cham-
ber, he (Sir J. Mackintosh) might have named Sir Thomas
More, Lord Bacon,- and other Judges, whose names adorned
the pages of history, and who had sat in that Court. He
thought the mode of appointing the Judges in England pre-
sented as good a security for the pure administration of jus-
tice as could be devised, wed he thought it must be acknow-
ledged that Welsh Judges had been chosen from personal mo-
tives or parliamentary interest, and the principle of selection of
the English Judges had been neglected. lie was not sure
that excluding the Welsh Judges from seats in that House
would prevent their being chosen by Parliamentary influence.
He was not partial to increasing the number of the Judges,
because he thought the small number of the superior Judges
was the greatest advantage, with a view to securing the highest
point of judicial honour in preserving the integrity of responsi-
bility. Our Magistrates were numerous, and their dignity was
:preserved by making their services gratuitous. The combina-
tion of the two presented the wisest or happiest union for the
administration of justice that could be imagined ; but he was
jealous Of persons having the name of Judges, and occupying
inferior stations. He wished the very name of Judge to be I
kept as high as possible ; but from the increase of business, I
the time had now arrived when an increase of Judges had be-'
conic necessary, and he shoe l irather there were added two
Judges to each of the Courts at Westminster, than any thing
.like an inequality among the Judges.
Mr. SCARLLTT said, that his feeling on the subject of the
number of Judges was different froth that of his Honourable
and Learned Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh), for he had rather see
the number of Judges diminished than increased. The reason
that the Court of King's Bench was so much oppressed with
business was„ because a great deal of matter which ought to be
disposed of by the Quarter Sessions was brought to that Court,
and some measure to regulate the distribution of business was
much wanted, and might be most usefully introduced. He there-
fore disapproved of that part of his Hon. Friend's measure,
which went to change the constitution of the Court of King's
Bench. With respect to thegeneral question before the House, he
did think that it was very improbable that gentlemen ofeminence
in the profession Could be found to take the situation of Welsh
Judge at a stipend of 1,1001. a-year. From this it followed,
that the people of Wales ' could not be so well off as to their
Judges as the other parts of the empire. He did not think the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, (Mr. Jones) derived
much friim the argument he used as to the antiquity of therire-
sent form of judicature; for, the present form was established
in the time of Henry the VIII., and that which was modern in
England was but as yesterday in Wales.—(A laugh,)--He did
not therefore think, that Welch blood would go along with him
in that respect. He did not pledge himself to agree to the re-
solution of his Hon. Friend, but he certainly thought that the
House ought to go into a Committee on the subject. • '
Colonel WOOD thought that the great increase of property
which had taken place in 'Wales since the time of Henry VIII.
.entitled them to a change in their judicature more suited to
their present state. He had changed his mind on this subject
—he had done so from conscientious conviction ; and he tlibught
he was called upon to state that change to the House. •
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that the, Hon.
and Learned Member for Knaresborough (Sir J. MackinMsh)
• had anticipated many of his observations relative to this ques-
tion, and in a great measure relieved him from the duty which
he would otherwise have had to perform. But he could not
agree to the plan of abolition, cc of increasing the number of
I.4nglish Judges. He allowed the present system of Welsh
Judicature was defective; and ought to be amended; but he