The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-03 00:00:00

of subsistence have not been restored, great miseries were
endured, but there could not be any longer that popnle-
tion continuing in the Western Isles without employ-
ment, by which they obtained subsistence. So you find
in several towns in this country and on the conti-
nent, that various branches of manufacture have
subsisted and flourished for a time, that they have en-
tirely deserted the places in which they were established,
that great miseries have been endured for a while; but,
afterwards, you find those people migrating to other dis-
tricts, where other or the same employment was found
for them; and, finally, the calamities left no traces be-
hind them.—(Hear, hear.) So I believe with respect to
this calamity affecting some of the southern and western
districts of Ireland, that their livelihood having been
entirely estimated on the culture of the potato, and that
food having failed, unless that food comes back to them
—unless they find there is the same mode of sub-
sistence they have hitherto had, you will find afterwards
that other districts will have, not the burden of their
subsistence, but the benefit of their employment.—(Hear.)
hear.) I have now stated the reasons upon which I
ground the proposition I have to make, I believe, that it
you agree to that proposition, we shall then be entitled,
after the consent of the house has been obtained, if we
find it necessary, from accounts of the increasing desti-
tution, to ask some advance from tf.is House before the
rate be immediately collected, by which we could supply
the more pressing wants of these people. At all events,
I think it is the duty of the Government to lay the case
before the House of Commons—(Hear, hear)—to ask
the House of Commons whether they are ready to con-
sent to the means by which we propose to meet this case
of misery and wretchedness—whether, if they do not
take our means they will consider what other means
ought to be adopted in preference—or whether, lastly,
it be the deliberate will and sentence of this House that
no attempt should be made to relieve the exigencies
of the distressed districts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
As I understood an Hon. Gentleman who spoke last
night, that last seemed to be the view he took of this
question.—(Hear, hear.) For ray part, I own that
although you should limit your aid, and take care it
should be spent as frugally and as economically as pos-
sible, yet, considering that the whole social state of
Ireland is undergoing a great transition, and that you
may save some of the miseries and many of the deaths,
which are the consequence of that transition, by inter-
posing with relief of this kind, I confidently ask for your
assent to the resolution which I have proposed.
Mr. STAFFORD rose under great difficulty on that
occasion, but he had experienced still greater difficulty
on former occasions, when the policy he advocated was
leas understood than it was at present. The predictions
in which he had indulged in former years bad been fully
realised, and if written in the present instead of the past
tense, might now be read as history. Ho was, there.,
fore, prepared to advocate these views with the confi-
dence which past experience had given him. Feeling
thoroughly satisfied that an inculcation of the great
principle of self-dependance was the main requirement
for the people of Ireland, he had opposed the grants of
money to that country in various forms, and among
others the proposal of his lamented friend, Lord George
Bentinck, for the encouragement of railway enterprise.
This circumstance entitled him to claim the attention
of the House while he showed that, in obedience to the
dictates of his own conscience, he was obliged to
vote against the motion for the Speaker leaving the
chair, and he would again feel it to be his duty to give
earnest opposition to the Bill of the Noble Lord in all
its stages whenever divisions took place. He
then proceeded to detail the proceedings before the Se-
lect Committee of the House of Commons appointed to
' inquire into the operation of the Irish poor-law, and
' entered his protest against the course adopted by the
Noble Lord, in compelling the Committee to decide on
the rate in aid proposition which had been submitted to
them without any previous inquiry or deliberation.
Some gentlemen took up the cry that the property of
Ireland should support the poverty of Ireland without
understanding the meaning of the phrase ; he should
endesvour to analyse that cry with great deference, but
with great earnestness. NOSY he admitted that the pro-
perty of Ireland should support the poverty of Ireland,
but, then, it was the entire rateable property, and not
the landed property alone, that should be held respon
Bible. The Noble Lord, in instancing several cases of
local distress, said that unless this state of destitution
were stopped, the people would leave the country, and
the land would fall out of cultivation; but the Noble
Lord did not say how they were to emigrate. He
did not mention who was to provide the funds, nor
did he state that any portion of the rate in aid was
to be applied to that purpose. It should be stated dis-
tinctly by some Minister of the Crown what amount of
money they expected this rate to realise, what amount
of destitution they expected to be called on to relieve,
and what amount of destitution they believed to exist
in those localities. According to the return of the Poor-
law Commissioners, there were 21 uniAis in a state of
bankruptcy. which would require 593 0001. to pay off
their debts and to meet their expenditure ; 300,0001. was
the maximum sum which the advocates of the rato in aid
calculated that it would produce, and there would then
remain a sum of 290,0001. to be provided for, even sup-
posing that no further destitution existed. This was an
important and essential part of the question. The
objection he took to the plan of the Government was,
first of all, that it was unjust ; next, that it would
be difficult of execution ; and, thirdly, that if it were
not unjust or difficult of execution, still it would fail
' of its proposed object. It was most desirable that
Ireland should not come auy longer to that House
as a beggar. Ho was one of those who thought that
sufficient means could be raised in Ireland to support the
poverty of the country, and this might be rendered prac-
ticable if all the property were assessed for the relief of
the destitute. Let them not lay that Ireland resisted
an income tax. Ireland had not had an opportunity of
expressing herself upon that important question. As
Ministers of the Crown, and guardians of the general
interests of the kingdom, the Government should have
given them an alternative. But when they had deter-
mined that a rate in aid should be extended over the
%hole of Ireland, it would hare been fair to Ireland, and
more consistent with the feelings of the House, if they
had offered to the Irish people the alternative of an
equal taxation. It would have been better in dealing
with this question if they had kept those two classes of
taxation distinct from one another. At the same time,
also, that they withheld this alternative, they did not
follow the bold and statesmanlike course of bringing the
subject forward as a Government measure, for the fair
and deliberate consideration of the Irish representa-
tives. The observation of the Hon. Gentleman be-
low the gangway, who said of the loyalty of Ulster
that it was a " sixpenny loyalty," had been regretted
by many Hon. Gentlemen, and the more so because it
was accompanied by an outburst of mirth which very ill
suited the gravity of the question; for he need not re•
mind the House that the question they were discussing
was of the very highest importance, not only to Ireland,
but to England. Having now spoken of the principle
upon which they intended to raise the funds for the
relief of the country, he approached the subject of their
application; but before he quite dismissed the preceding
topic of discussion, he would express his opinion, that no
income-tax would be refused, the proceeds of which
were to be applied to the relief of the poor population
of the country.—(Hear.) It was now proposed to impose
a general tax, to be raised by local machinery, and to be
devoted for local purposes. Now, to that distinction he
attached the greatest importance, for there could be
no check to profuse expenditure, and, even to use a
common phrase, to jobbing, which the system would
give rise to unless the strictest scrutiny was made as to
the manner in which the money was expended. To en-
sure the proper expenditure of the money, it ought to
be raised from the Imperial Treasury, for then every
Member cf that House would have an interest in looking
after the mode in which it was expended, and in seeing
that no misapplication was made of it. Ile did not,
however, want one farthing to come from the Imperial
Treasury for the relief of Ireland, unless the taxation
in all parts of the kingdom was assimilated. The Noble
Lord had said that the reducing the area of taxation
would be the means of increasing the evils of Ireland ;
but while he did not wish to argue whether a diminution
in the area of taxation would be right or wrong, he did
say, and experience convinced him of the truth of the
assertion, that where the electoral divisions were ren-
dered coterrninus with property, the Irish poor-law
worked well ; while, where the electoral divisions had
been enlarged, it had proved a complete failure. Com-
munication was now so rapid, and sach publicity was
given to everything by means of the public press, that
he would venture to say, that at this moment there was
not a district of Ireland, nor a landlord of that country,
but both as to the state of the one, and the character of
the other, Lord Clarendon was in possession of the most
ample details. That no doubt had its advantages,
and it had its disadvantages, but he would put it to the
Secretary for Ireland, what it was that last autumn was
most universally asked for by those who he knew to be
most deserving of consideration? Was it not that each
of those men, from their respective localities, pressed
upon the Government the necessity of reconsidering the
system of the poor-law, and particularly of diminishing
the area of taxation in Ireland. They said, and said
justly, that the English poor-law, as applied to Ireland,
was a mere chimera. As applied to Ireland, two great
assistants which accompanied it in England had been
withheld in Ireland. Had it not been for tho smallness
of the area of taxation in England, the poor-law would
not have worked there, and how could it do so in Ireland,
where that requisite was wanting? Then again in Eng-
land, the whole of the rate levied under the poor-law
fell on the occupier, but in Ireland for the most part
two-thirds, and in many cases all the burden fell on
the landlords. If, therefore, they meant to call it
the English poor-law that they had given to Ire
land, give them along with it the English area o
taxation. In England, that was about two thou-
sand acres, and did the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government, make it in Ireland in no case exceeding
3,000, nor under 1,000 acres; he gave him to understand
that such an arrangement would meet with the support
of a large party in Ireland. The question of unions was,
however, different from that of the electoral divisions,
although the boundary Commissioners had in a great
degree mixed up the two. He trusted that Government
would instruct the Poor-law Commissioners in no case to
separate unions, or erect new ones without the consent
of the poor-law guardians. Every new union was of
course attended with an additional staff of officers, and
if the poor-law guardians chose to raise the money to
defray the cost of them, lot them do so; but he would
a'lvise
If they slid Governmenttt to lend them no funds for that. pur-
pose. so, instead of a sixpenny rate in aid
they would soon have a shilling one. In regard to the
valuation on which that rate in aid was to be taken, he
would advise Hon. Members to consider the evidence
given that day before the Poor-law Committee by Mr.
Griffin. fie would not dilate upon it, as it would soon
be in the hands of the Members; but he would say that
nothing could more effecturilly show the impolicy, and
even impracticability of that rate, then did the evidence
of that gentleman. He had therefore suggested to the
Government some improvements which might be made,
such as the equalisation of taxation, and a diminution of
the area of taxation, together with some other matters