The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-03 00:00:00

N• _

objected to. His first Resolution went generally to put on
record, that our present taxation was so oppressive, that it was
highly expedie.nt to endeavour to repeal as much as possible of
it, consistently with safety to the service of the country. The
public had run into excess perhaps in their demands for a reduc-
tion of taxation, but he was equally satisfied the House,and par-
ticularly the Servants of the Crown, had obstinately persisted
throughout the Session in the opposite extreme, of shewing an
unwillingness to elect distress by reduction of taxation. It was
reserved for our times to hear it asserted that taxation was not
only not prejudicial to the State, but not prejudicial to the party
paying the tax, so that taxationnow a'-days, like charity, was
twice blessed, blessing him that took and him who gave.
Indeed they had heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman, that,
to remit taxation might tend finally to aggravate the distress.
Far as this paradox had been pushed, the country, notwithstand-
ing the-assurance of Ministers that they would resign their places
if the system of retrenchment were followed farther, the House
and the people triumphed over the resolution of the Members of
his Majesty's Ministry not to reduce taxation. He referred to
the conduct of Ministers on the motion of Mr. Curwen for the
repeal of the Horse Duty, and alio on the first motion for the
repeal of the Malt Duty, when the Noble Marquis said he would
'no longer continue to hold his situation if the repeal were carried;
yet in this very session that Noble Marquis had founded a claim
to the confidence of the country upon , the voluntary sur-
render of that part of the tax then-proposed to be reduced.
From the panegyrics pronounced "on nature, in the various
speeches of the Noble Lord, as the only. means of remedy for
the 'distresses complained of by the agriculturists, one would
have been inclined to imagine the Noble Lord in his plan was
no other than thehoasted poet of antiquity, Lucretius, whose
work was a splendid encomium on the operations of natureas a
divinity. But .it was not extraordinary to hear any thing sur-
prising from drat Noble Lord, when it was recollected that
Hume, the great historian, had stated it as a distinguishing part
and feature of our national character, that a man of the most
ordinary qualifications should be able to secure to himself the
ascendancy and chief conduct of the Counsels of his Sovereign
so, strongly that no one could possibly, with all the aid of supe-
rior talent, remove him from his envied eminence, whilst that
Minister was totally unable to express his sentiments in any lan-
guage, but that of which the common est peasant would have been
ashamed. After such a vacillation of conduct, the House was not
surprised to find that in two short months after,' altho' there had
been no change in affairs to render it probable he should have
adopted a contrary course to that he had pursued, the Noble Mar-
qu is consented to repeal takes to the amount of 1,800,000/. So far it
Would appear that the Noble Lord's actions were sufficiently in-
dicative of his being obliged to change his resolution ; but in his
opinion the very words of the Noble Lord might be quoted
against his consistency. The. Noble Lord had confessed in one
of his speeches that the country was groaning under the dead
weight of five millions of taxes : this was admitting the neces-
sity of a moderate retrenchment, at least. The mere transfer of
money from individual to individual necessarily presupposed an
existing necessity, or an inconvenience which compelled the
change of property from one to another; although Hume had
considered that there was nothing lost in a State under the cir-
cumstances of a rapid transfer of property, where it might be
considered only like a man's passing a portion of his property
out of his right hand into his left.--(Here the Honourable
Member reviewed the progress of the
.public debt since the
American war, under the various administrations of Mr. Pitt,
Mr. Addington, and Mr. Pitt's second administration.)—These
Ministers, he observed, successively assailed the mine of pub-
lic wealth, until they at last lived on, or rather, kept their
places at an expence to the country amounting to 438,6331.
a-day, taking the year as composed of only 300 working days,
making a total expence of 1,404,360,7941. in 30 succeeding
years. It was impossible to form any conception of such sums
of wealth, unless one had, like Caligula, a disposition to wal-
low in heaps of gold strewed on the floor. In following up the
funded system, 587,493,1581. was unnecessarily and wastefully
added to the debt of the country. The result of all.this avas,
a reduction of the active capital of the country so far. No
one could deny that the existence f t
ohis de t was an evil, a
(tr though there was a eat
.quantity of property undoubtedly
vested in certain wealthyb individuals in towns of note, and in
the metropolis. This latter sort of wealth was often a proof of
the decrease of the absorption and distribution of capital and
profits of business, as had been remarked by Monsieur Jaye,
which might clearly be exemplified by the condition of the coun-
try for the better part of the last 30 years. As to the causes of
the existing distress in the agricultural body, he firmly believ-
ed that it arose out of low prices, which low prices arose out of
the glut of farm
.produce. He did not, however, despair of
those prices rising in a short time. There were laws, such as
the Corn Law, which must in their effect raise the prices of the
produce-of the land. With a view to effect some relief to the
agriculturists, he had introduced his, first Resolution. The ob-
jector would ask, no doubt, how he intended to make a prac-
tical use of that Resolution ? He would candidly state, that it
was his opinion that the benefits of the Sinking Fund were illu-
sory, and that to go to any expense to support it would be un-
wise and impolitic. He hoped that the days of illusion on the
subject of the Sinking Fund were at an end, and that this age
had forgotten the reverie of Dr. Price's farthing, which by
compound interest was to become at length a ball of solid gold
as large as our earth. It was impossible a large State could
lend several millions at compound interest, because there was
no sufficient field for its occupation; although in America, a
rising State, they had paid by a similar fund to our Sinking
Fund above 67 millions of dollars off within the last seven
years ; but the Sinking Fund system produced at least fund-
ing, and funding begat power for the Noble Lord and the
Right Hon. Gentleman, who appeared to have set their minds
wholly on its acquisition. Ile contended the system was alto-
gether erroneous which was now adopted by tie Right Hon.
Gent., who, as he admitted that we had a surplus revenue of
3,0001000/. above the expenditure of the country, ought to re-
linquish taxes at least to an equal amount of 3,000,000/. He
would argue further, that owing to the, change which had taken
place in the currency, he felt a proportionate decrease of taxa-
tion ought to take place of a sti._ further sum of between two
and three millions, making in all a reduction of between five or
6,000,0001. He now rose to make a proposal to the House of a
reduction of taxation of only 1,500,0001. being a reduction im-
periously called for by those whom he felt • himself bound to
obey, namely, his constituents. The House and Window Tax
was the genuine descendant, in the rightline, of that odious tax
called the Hearth Money, which was "repealed, so much to the
satisfaction of the country, in the Ist of William and Mary,
chapter 10. The commutation of the Act of the 24th Geo. 111.
chapter 84, was the most singular modification of this 'tax.—
Mr. Pitt substituted-an ad valorem duty on tea, and raised a
heavy tax on windows. That tax for which Mr. Pitt was so
lauded, increased the tax on tea by 1001. per cent.; and instead
of the duties on windows being reduced, they were, in fact, aug-
mented. He recollected having read in a speech of Mr. Fox's
at that time some observations, applying to that case. Mr. Fox
said, that tea had no more to do with windows than with horses,
or any thing else, no matter how foreign. In the years 1785
and 1786 Mr. Pitt tried-his famous Shop Tax, which was neither
more nor less than a House and Window Tax. So unpopular
did that tax become, that Mr. Pitt felt himself obliged to repeal
.it. But he supplied the loss—in what way ? By trebling the
tax on windows ; and that also he called a commutation.—
That tax was necessarily raised in 1792, 1795, and 1797, but
had on every occasion been introduced as a war tax. So far from
being reduced at the perio4of the peace,:it was again increased in
1802, and then, again, it was called a commutation. Mr. Combe,
Member for London, and others, came down to the House,
and declared, that if they had thought the Window Tax were
to be increased they would not have Voted for the Income
Tax. To prove the inequality of its operation, he should take
the liberty of referring to a scale which he held in his hand.
[The Hon. Gentleman here quoted the scale of Window Tax,
contending from it, that the higher the rent the lower was the
rate of Window Tax paid ; so that, consequently; the in-
ferior class of houses paid a greater duty than those of a
higher denomination.] The increase of the tax from 1792 to 1822, .
was from 150 to 200 per cent. or rather of an average-of 36 per
cent. In the year 1816 a calculation of house rents (as we unw
derstood) was made, by which it appeared that they amounted
to 8,574,6931., while the amount of' the duty was 3,074,6481., so
that the amount of the tax was something more, than 36 per
cent,, which proved the inequality *of its operation. It might be
said that if the occupier of a house felt himself too highly taxed,
he might leave it; but in the case of traders, that step could
not be taken without great inconvenience and loss of their esta-‘
blishments. Every person must have observed the number
of houses of the respectable class that -were hourly going
to decay, and he claimed the attention of the House to
an instance. A person who owned a house of 351. per
annum rent, on which the duty was 601., was unable to
let it. Some depredations having been committed, he sent a
person to take care of it, when the taxman immediately made his
demand for the duty. , In consequence the owner of the house
had it pulled to pieces ; the sale of the materials produced only

PRICE S.EVENPEN CE,

8001. so that he lost 16001. ; the difference between that sum an,

the original cost of it (24001.), a loss to which he preferred sub. '
milting in preference to the payment of the duty: The talcula-
tions and the inquiries of tenants, when about to take houses,
were not the amount of rents, but that of taxes. The consequence
was, that in building houses, the builders or architects sought, by
snaking a few large windows, instead of a number of moderate
sized ones, to evade the duty, and which was done at the sacri-
fice of all taste, and, to the outrage of all proportion. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer well knew that 20 houses in
.To.
thill-street paid as much in duty as 20 houses in Lombard-
street, where the number of window's was the same, although
the rent of one might be only 101. while that of the other was
1001. So that supposing the income of the former to be worth'
501. par, and the owner of the latter s,oool.'par, one paid one-
seventh of his-income, and the other only one seven-hundredth
part. He would ask, therefore,
.ought a tax of such unequal
operation to be continued? The House should consider, also,
that in consequence of that tax rents were so increased that
many persons were obliged to crowd together into one house, to
the consequent injury of their health. So far had that sys-
tem been carried in Ireland,- that it formed a strong argument
for the reduction of that tax, as far as respected that country ;
and the House would recollect, that so general had the effect
been felt in generating fever, that the tax was at last termed
the typhus tax. The tax had been repealed as far as re-
garded Ireland, and he rejoiced in it. An instance of the
severity with which the tax pressed on the poor came
within his own knowledge. A poor man occupied a house
with six rooms and six windows, on which the duty was
Bs. He wished to build a wash-house, which would. have
enabled him to live more comfortably, but he found, that if he
did so, the duty would be 20s. ; in consequence of which the
poor man was obliged to forego his intention, and consequently
that which would have contributed to his subsistence and his
comfort for life. The House had the power of removing that
odious and obnoxious tax, and it ought to repeal it. He might
be asked, how, in that case, was the deficiency to be made up ?
It was not his province to consider that ; but he would answer
at once—take it from the sinking fund, as he had already pro-
posed : but had he not proposed that mode, he should propose,
in preference, reduction of our expenses. From an army and a
navy which cost the country 15,000,0001. annually, he would
contend some decrease ought to be made. The lion. Gentle-
man then quoted a case which occurred in one of the islands of
the Archipelago, when taxes were demanded in these words—
"We bring two gods—Force and Necessity."—To which the
inhabitants replied, "We have two gods to oppose to them—
Want and Impossibility ;" and such was the case of the people
of England at.this moment. He believed that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would admit that more difficulty attended the
collection of the revenue than hitherto, and he believed that
the consumption of exciseable articles had considerably increas-
,ed.—(Hear, hear, hear !—amidst the cheering the explanation
of the Hon. Gentleman did not reach us.)--Ile recollected a
quotation from Scripture made by Lord Bacon, that " Want
came first as a wayfaring man, but he next came as an armed
man." He thought that in a very short time the people of
this country must assume the latter character; and as from no
country that ever existed such sums had been exacted, so it be-
hoved Ministers and that House to see in what manner it could
be speedily reduced. He felt himself obliged to refer to the -
late scheme of Ministers for removing the dead weiglit,and which
he should call a mere juggle—a fraud, contravening their own
principles, and in opposition to their own declarations. He
regretted the absence of the agricultural Gentlemen on that c.c.:
casion, and more particularly the great Coryphkeus of the party.
He begged to remind the House of a speech delivered by a
Noble Lord. The Minister for Foreign Affairs declared in
that House on the 3d of April, 1821, that if it were practicable
to reduce 2,000,0001. of taxes, he should prefer the repeal of
the Window Tax to that of the Duty on Malt. Although, per-
haps, it might not be fair, now that the Malt Tax had been re-
duced, to demand the repeal of the Duty on Windows also, yet .
he quoted the words of the Noble Lord to prove that he himself
thought the Window Tax .one which ought to be repealed.—•
He begged the Ilouse to recollect that the amount of the Win,
dow Tax in Great Britain was 2,565,2751. The Hon. Gentle-
, man then concluded by moving certain Resolutions in substance
F as follows : _ _

" Ist. That it appears to this,House, that the present amount
of taxation b so burdensome and oppressive, as to make it the
duty of this House to adopt every means by which, without de-
triment to the State, that taxation may be reduced.
" 2d. That the.benefits supposed to be derived front the esta.._
blishment of a Sinking Fund are illusory; and that to impose
or continue any additional burthens on the people, for the pur-
poses of its support, is highly inexpedient and unwise.
" 3d. That the tax levied on windows in Great Britain is
unjust, unequal in its operation, and most oppressive to those.
especially who are least able to bear it ; and that it appears to
this House that the said tax should be forthwith immediately

repealed."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was
not his intention to follow the Hon. Gentleman through observa-
tions which had often been niade before, and to combat argu-
ments, which in his judgment had already been satisfactorily an-
swered. lie, however, felt it to be his duty to Oppose the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Gentleinan, as he took for its basis the destruc-
tion of the Sinking Fund, which, in his opinion, would go to the
annihilation of public credit. He should therefore give a decid-
ed negative to the second resolution of the Hon. Gentleman.
To the first, which stated it to be the duty of the House to re-
peal taxes as far as this could be done without detriment to the
public interest, no objection could be urged. It expressed a.
trueism, and merely considering that it was unnecessary for .
.the House to affirm such a trueism at this moment, he should
meet it with the previous question. To the third propositionof
.. Hon. Gentleman, as well as the second, he should oppose
his most decided negative. He should now more particularly
apply himself to the practical Resolution submitted by the
Hon. Gentleman to the House. He admitted that the Win. ,
dow Tax formed one of the heaviest of'the remaining burdens of
the people. It had been largely augmented in the last thin.),
years, and the 'epeal of that impost in Ireland had given great
relief to that country. But Ireland never having paid the
Property Tax, had not experienced the same relief from taxa-
tion which England had enjoyed since the return of peace, and
the Irish Window Tax had been found peculiarly heavy in con-
sequence of circumstances growing out of the Union, however-
beneficial that measure might be in other respects. The Union
had caused more of the Gentry to absent themselves from Ire.,
land. The removal of the Parliament had taken many persons
of opulence from Dublin, and thus superior houses in that city
had become of comparatively little value, and had fallen into.
the hands of those who otherwise would not have occupied
bitations of such splendour. By these persons the Window
Tax-was severely felt, and it was found the number of windows
stopped often made the house dark, unwholesome, and un.,
comfortable. He, however, denied that such consequence had
resulted from the operation of the Window Tax in England-2-
The Honourable Gentleman who had brought forward the
Window Tax m Ireland, wasenabled to show mat the Tax was
in many instances recovered by legal process. This had not
been shewn in the present - case, for there never was a period
when the revenue was collected with less difficuLy. He could
.also state that the produce of the tax had not fallen off,
and that the people were not deprived of the comforts they
had been accustomed to enjoy, was evident from the returns
from the Excise laid before the House in the course of the
Session, which shewed an increase in every instance, with the
exception of three districts? where the falling off was easily
accounted for from the failure of . the hops. He would not
argue that the Window Tax ought not to be taken into consi-
deration if a large remission of taxes were now to take place ;
but taxes amounting to nearly three millions and a half haying
already been taken off in the course of the Session, a further
reduction was not now to be contemplated. In the beginning
of the Session no expectation had been held out that taxes to
such an amount would be given up, nor had the means of af•
folding such relief been at that time foreseen. This, however,
had been accomplished through the improvement of public
credit, by adhering to that system of policy which Gentlemen
, on the opposite side of the House were anxious to overturn.
So long as Parliament continued to apply a considerable
sum in each year to the reduction of debt, they might hope
for a diminution of the public burden, but to adopt the
plan suggested by the Honourable Gentleman, and other
Members on that side of the House, would be to exemplify
the old adage, would be killing the goose to get at the eggs.
That the establishment of the country might be reduced
was very much in the mouths of Gentlemen opposite. Let
them point out where such reductions could be effected. The
Hon. Gentleman had exaggerated when he spoke of the army
and navy creating a charge of 15,000,0001. The charge, how-
ever, for the army, navy, and ordnance, amounted to between
fourteen and fifteen millions • but of this sum, it should be re-
membered that above 4,000,0001. was for pensions which could
not be touched without a breach of good faith, and this taken
from the total, reduced the actual expence for those. services to

about ten millions. The extent of the empire considered, and
-the various services to be performed, he did not think it could
<be expected that a smaller sum for those purposes could be
sufficient. The reduced prices of most articles of consump-
tion had been used as an argument for the reduction of the
public expenditure, but he showed that a very small por-
lion of it was affected by- that circumstance. The reasons
which had influenced Government in repealing the Window
Tax in. Ireland did not apply to the IVindow Tax in this
country. The burden he admitted to be heavy, but it was one
C) which the country had long bean accustomed, and it was
by no means so unequal-and unjust in its operation as the
Hon. Gentleman had represented it to be, as that and the
House Tax were made, ia some sort, to balance each other.—
The Window Tax had not been augmented since 1808, at
ewhieh time the nation had to sustain a Property Tax of 10 per
.cent. No .country in Europe, he would contend, had profited
eee largely by the return of peace AS this country, as no other
• country had experienced. so large, a remission of taxes. In
et:ea:land nearly one-third of the taxes paid during the war had
already been repealed. Such being the fact, he could not see
the justice of the complaints raised on account of the non-repeal
of taxes. Though under oche; . circumstances the Window
Tat might well be taken into their consideration, he should for
tee present give his most strenuous negative to the proposition
-of the lion. Gentleman, and especially so, on account of the
ereu.nents which he haq used in its sapport, and the principles ,
which he had advocated. '
Mr. MABERLY would never be silent when aspersions
were thrown on that (the Opposition) side of the House, like
'those which had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
had accused them of wishing to overturn public credit ; this
eharge he would repel. That side of the House had certainly
'been very anxious for the reduction of taxation, but not to the
prejudice of any particular set of men, or to the injury
of the Public Creditor. They wished, of the sixty millions
taken from the people; that the Public Creditor should first
take out his 30,000,0001., but they complained that the course
which had been taken by the Government was inconsistent
and unwise, and that the money which Ministers contended
they expended in good Government, was not so expended.—
He maintained that good faith ought to'be kept with the Pub-
lic Creditor. Had the battle of Waterloo been lost, where
would his capital have been ? Since it was gained, he had
a right to the advantage consequent upon it, as in the other
case he must have sustained the loss. It was said the people
did not complain of the taxes. Why, this was because they
knew that it was useless to complain. What was desired on
that side of the House was this, that more should not be
taken from the people than was necessary. He, and those with
whom he had the honour to act, were satisfied that the coun-
try might be better governed, and at less expence. The state
the country was now such, that taking the average state of
the whole country, he did not believe that any rent was paid
on the soil.—(Hear, hear !)--The Right Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite might say " Hear, hear !" but (Mr. Maberly) was a
farmer, and knew what he had stated to be correct. lie be-
lieved that what was paid as rent was in reality capital, and
not properly speaking' rent. The taxes nowt paid, he con-
tended, pressed more heavily on the present means of the
country than the taxes did on its former income, before they
had been taken off to the amount of 17,000,0001. The present
expenditure of the country amounted to 24,000,0001. The dead
charge, he admitted, could not be touched, but deducting this
from the total, there remained seventeen millions and a half to
work upon, and he had no doubt that, if they went resolutely
to work, some millions might be saved. In 1792, the whole ex-
pence of the country, Ireland included,. was under eight
millions. 'fake that, and add the four millions and a half
for the dead charge, and then it .would he seen that the
country was governed at an expence of twelve millions
more than was thought necessary in 1792. He contended that
if the subject were considered, a material reduction might be
effected. The Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the im-
portance of a Sinking Fund. But it appeared from his own
papers that he had only had a Sinking Fund during the last two
years. Since 1792 the real Sinking Fund had only amounted to
akout 4,000,0001.. This was that which they were told was to
support public credit. Those who sat on that side of the House
were as anxious for the support of public credit and for a Sink-
ing Fund as Ministers themselves could be. But they wished
for a real Sinking Fund, and not such a one as they had hitherto
had. They wished, for a real Sinking Fund, and they had op-
;nosed the measure of the Government which went to destroy
that which had formerly been established.
. Mr. C. W., WYNN was sorry to have interrupted the Hon.
Gentleman, but he could not hear his statement that no rent
was paid throughout the country, without expressing his sur-
_prise at the assertion. The Hon. Gentleman had said that he
was a farmer and knew what he had stated to be correct. His
.being a farmer might enable him to judge of the state of a par-
ticular district; but when it was known, though in many
places great distress was felt, there were parts of the country
where farms were let at a rack rent, and when one was to be
:let there was au active competition ,for it, to him it seemed an
.absurdity to saw That no rent was paid throughout the country.
fie wished the military establishments of the country reduced
_as nearly as possible to what they were in 1792. It should,
however, be remembered, that the army had now been brought
Jeerer than the lowest amount which the Committee of 1817
had thought would be consistent with the security of the
country. In what way could the expence be reduced ? Was
the Honourable Gentleman disposed to bring forward a mea-
sure to lower the pay of the army ? He, for his part, thought
it ought to have been raised sooner than it was, and he was
now of opinion that it could not be reduced without injury to
the character of the country.
Mr. MABERIX explained.
Mr. ROBERTSON compared the rate of interest, formerly
paid on the loans raised for the service of the country, with the
- higher interest paid for loans during the last war, anti lamented.
the unfavourable -terms on which the latter hail been nego-
ciated. He disapproved of the arrangement made in the course
of the present Session, by -which the Public Debt had been aug-
mented, and our burdens put in -the way of descending to pos-
terity, as our ancestors had unworthily handed down theirs to
us. He looked with much apprehension to the consequences
of serne of the measures which had been adopted; and was of
- opinion that it was not by a further reduction of taxation that
. ,the difficulties of the country could be removed. •
Mr. HUME did not take the gloomy view of our situation
which had been taken of it by th.e Hon. Gentleman who, had
just 'sat down. He believed the resources of the count!), were
sufficient to make it rise superior to all its difficulties. Let
• those resources be properly managed, and, this might become
the happiest country in the civilized world. But with this
• statement he must couple the declaration, that our affairs were
not so administered us to promise to conduct us to such, a
result. The system acted upon for the last twenty-five or thirty
years had brought the country to its present situation. He com-
plained of the manner in which its finances were managed.
The confusion which prevailed with respect to them, was strik-
ingly exemplified on the preceding night, when three or four
Gentlemen, who spoke on the Budget, had all taken different
views of-that-which ought to have been so plain that no men who
had learned the common rules of aritlunetic.should.be able to dif-
fer about it. He however congratulated the House that next
year the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to put an end to
the sham Sinking Fund, as he culled it.—(Hear!)—Hitherto a
sham sinking fund had been kept up, and it was only in the
-present
year that it was admitted, a real sinking fund was only
that sum by which the income of the country exceeded its ex-
pendinire. The system acted upon through the last thirty years
'was a complete humbug upon the country. As the Presdent
-of the Board- of Controtd had contradicted the assertion of his
Hon.' Friend, that, looking at the country generally, no actual
rent was paid, but that which was given as rent was in truth a,
~deduction from capital, he (Mr. Hume) wondered he had not
combated the statement. made by the Agricultural Committee
-c):1 this subject. Either his lion. Friend was right in what he
had. advanced, or the Committee -was wrong. lie contend-
ed that the Right Honourable Gentleman had made an un-
:fair statement when he said that four millions of taxes had
been reduced.. The fact was, that two millions of them would
not be repealed until January next. The taxes which were.
laid on in 1819 were not, yet taken off. . The Hon. Member
for Abingdon had justly said that Ministers were always talk- ,
ing of upholding public credit, whereas they were the first to:
pull it down. It was true, as the lion. Member for Penryn
had said, that not one of their acts had done any thing but help
to destroy public credit. It often appeared that the greatest
sinner wished to appear the greatest saint. This was -the case
with the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer upon this
subject. He was always crying, out against injuring public
credit, while he had been the greatest-sinner against it that ever
sat upon the Treasury Bench. -The Honourable Member then
proceeded to contend that no satisfactory. reductions had been
made, and that various -arrangements might be made in the
army to effect savings. 'With regard to the Tax before the
House, that was the Tax which sent people to live abroad.
(Hear, hear !)—The House and Window Tax were involun-
tary taxes which no man could avoid but at the expence of,
his health. If this measure was good for Ireland, it would.
he good for England. Ile called uuon every Member for
Ireland who voted for the repeal of the Irish Window Tax, to
give his vote for -the present motion. If he did not do so he
was no Irishman.—(A laugh.)—He then statetL the amount of
this Tax to have increased 900 per cent. and argued, that as the,
increase had been occasioned by the continuance of the war, it
ought in jestice to bereduced in time of peace. The only means
of obtaining relief to the landed interest, vres to reduce' general
taxation. The repeal of this tax would afford much more
relief to landed Gentlemen than the repeal of the Malt Tax,
and- he trusted the House would compel Ministers to take it off.

Mr. 11ONCK con tended that the reduction of taxation,
instead of having an injurious operation upon public credit, it
NQuid uphold it, and be as beneticial to the fundholder as to.

any other class. He expressed his intention of giving his '
strongest support to the motion. '
Mr. DENNIS BROWNE agreed with the, Hon. Member
for 'Montrose, that the taking off the House and Window Tax
would increase the revenue by inducing the 'return of absen-
tees to this country ; but at the same time he must object to
it at the present time, because the reduction of such an amount
of income would go to shake Ole public credit.
Mr. CA LCRAF'f thanked Iris Hon. Friend for having I
brought forward this motion in so very able a manner, and with
so full a displ.l of its impe:taxice. It was, he was awttfe, a
reduction of 2,700001., and would sensibly interfere with the
sinking fund ; but he was well aware that the only means of
relieving the distresses of the country was by a repbal of tax-
ation. He was ready to maintain that this sum ought at this
moment to be reduced, without any fear or apprehension of
shaking public credit.—( flux, hear.)—To maintain public cre-
dit, in the strongest sense of the word, was not only just, but
wise. Feeling this, he would contend that the reduction of
taxes was tile best means of improving the foundation of pub-
lic credit.—(Bear, hear.)—The same objections that were now
made, had been often repeated against the repeal of the
duty on salt, on malt, on Irish hearths, and
:Irish windows.
lf his Honourable Friend persevered in the sensible, moderate,
firm course, which he had taken this night, he might be assured
that the whole, or a part of this odious and oppressive tax,
would be reduced. From the year 1815 nothing had come
spontaneously—all had been wrung from Ministers. In the
army and navy, he was free to confess that little could be re-
duced in the present state of this country; but in the civil and
colonial departments much could yet be saved.
Mr. MAXWELL rose, amidst loud cries of " Question."
Representing, as he did, one hundred thousand constituents,
he thought he was entitled to make a few observations on
a question so materially affecting the comforts of the peO.:
ple. Government had brought themselvei and the country
into difficulties by what they called a sound currency.' The
reduction of this tax would bring back many to this country
anti so increase the demand for the supply which now glutted
the market. To reduce taxes was the remedy for " the dying,
starving, and rioting" classes of the people. The eau
male, called Peel's 'Bill, had thrown the distress on the pro-'
ducer : by relieving the pressure of taxation, the demand of the
consumer would increase and alleviate the difficulties Of the
producer.
Mr. HOBHOUSE replied. He thanked the House for the
indulgence they hail granted him, and for the support which
he had received. There was one portion of the House,
holever, generally known by the description of Country
Gentlemen, who, he thought,• might at least have expressed
the grounds upon which they did not support his motion.
Ile thought their conduct upon this occasion very likely to con-
firm the public in the suspicion with which it had been accus-
tomed to rep* them: Be could not help contrasting it.with
the noise and clamour which they set up, both in and -out of
that House, upon all questions which they considered as affect-
ing their own immediate interests.—(Hear, hear !)—He thought
the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had not answered
the strongest Rafts of the argument winch he had submitted
to the House.
The House then divided:—
For the Motion - . 59
Against it - - - • 146
Majority against the Motion
IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.

Mr. GOULBURN rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill
for continuing the Irish insurrection. Act. On account of the
lateness of the night he would not enter upon the discuision,
and therefore he trusted that the House would not think him
wanting in respect if he expressed a hope that Members would
delay till a future stage of the measure any observations they
had to make on it. With this understanding he would con-
clude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for continuing the
Irish Insurrection Act for alimited time, to be afterwards de-
terthined.

Sir R. 'WILSON hoped that, as the measure was one of very
great importauce, the Right Hon. Gentleman would fix a day
for the discussion of it. ,

Lord FOLKESTONE would, notwithstanding the Right
Hon. Gentleman's not having brought on the discusSion, detain
the House for a few minutes. He had come up to town for the
express purpose of stating his opinion on this measure ; and as
he should not have a future opportunity of doing so, he hoped
the House would indulge him, while he expressed, as briefly as
he r uld,. his objection to the measure. The House would bear
in mind, that when at the very opening of the Session this mea-
sure was introduced, the reason alleged for its introduction was,
that Ireland was in a state of insurrection, and not of insurrection
merely, but of actual rebellion. Now he would take the liberty
of stating, that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus had not
been carried . into effect in a single instance. The information
upon which the Act had at first been passed, had been meagre;
and the Noble Lord OppeSite had pledged himself that the whole
state of Ireland would be gone into. Many Members of the
House had, no doubt, voted for the measure upon the faith of
this pledge, which after all had not been redeemed. The
Noble Lord and others had said that Ireland was in a state of
absolute rebellion. This had, however, been denied by the Hon.
and Learned Attorney-General for Ireland (Mr. Plunkett),
who had described the whole disturbance in Ireland as being
contemptible. The House had thus been induced to pass
the Bill under false pretences. The Noble Lord then re-
ferred to the papers on the Table of the House, and par-
ticularly to the dispatches of the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, of the Ist and 21st of May, in order to shoW that
the state of Ireland had, instead of improving, become abso-
lutely worse under the operation of the measure. The tur-
bulence and violence ha'_' no doubt been put down, but then
the putting of them down had been only temporary, and under
the pressure of the .measure, and the spirit of the people had
'not been corrected. It would be dangerous to render perma-
nent a measure which conferred such powers, and which
after all had not been found efficient.—(Mr. Go» LBIIIIN said,
it was intended to continue the measure only for one
year.)—One year. Would not lie sufficient for ascertaining
whether the measure was to be beneficial or not. It had al-
ready been in operation for five months, and it had not done any.
good ; there was, therefore, no presumption in favour of a mea-
sure which should'continue for a year. He thought it wrong to
delay the discussion, as the Government,' or at least several Mem-
bers of it,. were welfacquainted with the state of Ireland: It was
true that MerquisWellesley was new as Governor of Ireland; but
it was equally true that the system of Government was not new.
Lord Liverpool and Lord Westmorland were well acquainted
with Ireland; and even the, Noble Lord (Londonderry) knew
something about the mode according to which it was governed.
That Noble Lord had, before the Union, introduced a measure
with regard to Irish tithes, a subject to which the. feelings of
the people of Ireland were very much awake. A great deal
had been said about the cause of the preSent -disturbance in
Ireland ; but that cause must be sought either in the tithes or
in the Catholic question. With regard to the latter question,
it was know» thAt one half of the -Government was for it and
the other half against it. At one time they had an Anti-Catho-
lic Lord Lieutenant and a Catholic Chief Secretary, and now
it appeared that the state of things was just the reverse. This
could be no inducement for him to agree to the measure—a
measure which appeared to be quite ineffectual. He thought
they should introduce some real radical measure which would
ameliorate the condition and correct the spirit of the Irish.
Mr. PLUNKETT begged leave to set the Noble Lord right
as to the charge which had been brought against himself. He
had never said that the state of Ireland did not call for the mea-
sure in question. lie had only said, that the disturbances in
Ireland were in no way connected with religious feeling.
When the state of that country had been represented as some-
thing far more serious, than it actually was, he had called it '
contemptible, and that word, though he had used it in the
warmth of debate, he had thought not inapplicable.
Colonel BAGWELL referred to a Petition from 85 Magi-
strates of Ireland, who stated that the worst consequences
would ensue if the Bill were not contiraied.'

Mr. PEEL thought that it would be better for the Houite to
adhere to the suggestion of the Honourable Secretary for Ire-
land. The statements of Gentlemen on one side naturally
produced replies and additional statements from Gentlemen
on the other ; and, as discussion could not now be fully gone
into, it would be more convenient to refrain from it altogether.
Mr. ABERCROMBY also deprecated discussion ; and at
the same time suggested that the question should not be argued
till the Irish Constable Bill had passed.
Mr. GRATTAN recommended an early day for the discus-
sion.

Mr. GOULBURN intimated thaf Thursday next would be
ad vi sable.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied having given
any pledge as to discussion relative to Ireland.
Mr. DENMAN complained that the measure would be put-
ting Ireland for ever out of the pale of the constitution. He
thought the clause which refused costs to those who'had been
successful in actions against Magistrates under the Act, was
peculiarly objectionable ; and that for the purpose of removing
that and .other offensive clauses, the Bill should be entitled a-
" Bill to continue and amend the Act in question."
Mr. G. 'LAMB wished to know bow the Petition, to which
an Hon. Member (Colonel Bagwell) had alluded, was signed ?
Colonel BAGWELL said, by Clerk of the Peace in the
name, and by the authority of the Magistrates.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. GOULBURN then moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for amending an Act relative to the appointing pe.Commis-
sioners for Endowed Schools in Englancl.—Granted.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House Adjourned at ONz o'CLocr.z.

Win- Duties. Duties. Addition
Rent. dows. 1797. 1017. per Cent.
s. 11.!. s. d. s. d.
On Houses of - 50 0 25 1 9 0 022 10 2 150
, Ditto - - 50 0 30 'lO 0 0,26 14 2 167
Ditto - 50 0 35 .11 0 .0,30 18 2 180
Ditto - - 50 0 40 .12 0 0;35 19 2 200
Ditto - - 100 0 25 11 10 029 11 10 157
Ditto - - 100 '0 30 12 10 0133 15 10 172
Ditto - - 100 0 35 13 10 0:37 19 10 181
Ditto - 100 -0 40 il4 10 0143 010 196
By this statement the first four houses pay from 9s. to 1.48. 44.

By this statement the first four houses pay from 9s. to 14s. 4d.
in the pound duties, or on the average 58 per cent. ; and the
other four houses pay from 6s. 7d. to Bs. 10d. in the pound
duties, or on the average 36 per cent. ; and the higher the rents
are, the less, in proportion, is the duty, so that the dower order
of housekeepers, by the present scale, are burdened the most.
Also, it is evident that the war increase has been from 150 to
200 per cent. on the house of the ordinary number of win-
dows ; but when, accidentally or by necessity, the number of
windows is more than usual, the increase has been Trzster.