The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-07 00:00:00

'1 no longer governed by that rudder wbiuchs
d to the most
oken the lines of the enemy, and guide
with barnacles,
lOtious triumplisbut till it is covered has so often
the
td can no longer make its way in triump
"n --(Cheers.) They will cling to it itli_lt.lhernt(heeleheeoh'i;
,toetions make it linger behind the breeze h
'kle before the storm, and till the vessel itself'
'Ptlis unfathomable, never, never to float two
',liters.) If that should be the fatal result of these
sinks into
;Misters have
peditions I fear that h will be seen the o.t .
of the em-
ken on board with them the whole proslier.i,e}m
re. When they have dune this, I ask them
pilot who
'ry will not wish to see once more the cautious
eines at Si.
ould have kept them at their comfortable moonaut
whether
elen's?--(Hear, hear.) In almost every
.ne.p,tonsenrthenyf
,is 13ill they have departed from the principles 1 I
I population
A down as its basis. We now know
° for the first time made the basis of thet clol.nosretriai(eii.miointt:,idf
plan of Reform a basis that was never bell
had
taken
go the Constitution. If the Noble Eat
taxation as
ruperty as the basis of his measure, or
adopted an
Ike standard of ... he would have a
tad . . , n PloPtrtY,
but the principle. -
principle or the Constitution;
lion alone is one which must lead to revolts
on ; n is that in which the enemiesf .o.efstohfen
ettaayt trfiumph in the opposition of the forces
i i pain that I,.see
Ile
4,,,1,41,,i1unerty..--(No, no.) It
thus
lAininel'ilearrseht to
the I'E r 1 and his colleagues uuntt,ieinyglhYalvients`l,l:lgd
se Yes forward in
such a career. 1'
the
klernselves to the spirit of discord, and that, too, art.n .e.
iti)enndditi°ttsion whicph such bargains are. always made I
„la_
to,.arY tares, that the spirit shall toil for them_f(o(rmaeesrs. )
a.nd that they shall be its slaves ever
measure than that it
4!
uno other objection to this
meal
should oppose it.
fed not be dealt with in Committee,.
Bill
is
upon the..
tgreat point of attack made by this
no friend. of
It
that °f
the ootnination boroughs. I
am
mout by which
the r.,ystertno, and if any mode can beld fio)eund
effectually carried
grate en, l'azynywhitTeolt of the coi.intry
of the three orders (~on.t.
,:tll4teli cainel.d_i.et.pleerpeeetnunaeteetille:itehout its assistance,
(le should
propose to
Ipre,enr 8
~:r ituopting that mode to the continuan •
that you
wee I8`eio• My objection is,
see whether you.
the
'call,)eta'sY the whole at once, before youuvery
authority in
the e0414,.4ny Part with advantage. rain this 'nation is connected with all Etheuir)seos
s,ry i'onnection these boroughs are
the sooner the
bora„eflke first place, I admit that the centroul of these
absolutely nmeaciens--
laY fa is 4 °diulis, and I should say that the
if your Lord-
I ship,' /jot get rid of them the better; _
t.O give , tl'e has any interest in them,
em0e,.,`.11) that interest in them. But then the question.
I ashould advise you
ttienyl°,, van you provide for the wants
hay
Aiitii,t„,,4l You have not some secure means
of
one or
other is;" of the Crown can always be Members "`
to exist. I
the
tvh iCc ll' n s t
thel -
may Ouse, their responsibility will
ceasel
answer, that
it ~4t`stold of the power of impeachment—eidom
applied,
anq n (inlY f 0 terroron, because it is seldom It never I . .
CP, itV" Produces the good expected from
ti :'e 4Ppli d -
the
ambitious Minister
means
. snit
ace to arrest
,as a
°r
1' ode
- his power, but almost always
) Can any
in the
'llt '4l'ariee against the fallen.—(Cheers.,' „d arlibi-
ti,),:" Your Lordships believe that the atu!fellow-
ito,;t„lll..so, plotting against the liberties
hot. ms
the fear of
011:'s,
.v(r was arrested in his career y
can
you ex-
Ptct Which might he rapid? Then haonwimpeachment,
ithiehl to be seared by the fear of. --
_Lear, hear.)
tut th , necescarily, slow and uncertain.—(l
ever sat on the
other !I,lllust ambitious Ministers that
,ioterrti4 ,most
of the table could not stand
against
would be sub-
Je
tPvill°4 and discussions to which they.
I, there-
and
the
.trt, they forted,as„, e they remained in Parliament ,
•inst the daily
eoentr
that
it i 8 for the advantage
ofnild always
beld
seeured ( Y seats in Parliament . the liberty of
lad ,11', or Ministers. It has been saisdh(thatthey
pwoowuer
utf ti`i %.,11. waY into Parliament through the elastic
It is
precise)e '-onatitution. What is that elastic power?
It
y that which ~..i.• i- s propose to abrogate.
responsibility
i' by the til . - ""le" :On ' hs that
in the ... !dos of nomination boroughs ein Parliament
litirt
tntinister is secured by
that the inte.-
ests a_rered certain ; and it is by that that
There is
his presence aorta
dlivherties of the people areofsel
the country
'Oven heean
ea`idt'atanli'te'•edThh libertien oefs
great ability,t b. unt
ow
it
d'oe,.
she!ti out of
his
power yannid out of
Way .1 haPPen that every one of these men has there the
battiellat_Q, !he HoUse of Commons, and wed the country
Parlian.rans
found
w wwnich otherwise might have deluged the country
ad teo bloodlessly fought upon
t arena of
that licsdd, Las been bloodlessly (ought
is not all.
Maine,'
na.' e powers o
But that
than by
It is h), a Inlttred--(Hear, hear.)
it'usk.
a"
th f the
by man
been
htooti:t provided, that
has
wc.l°derful contrivance, less has
Constitution have re-
ever 0 • when once such a person____ns, what-
Ts the arena of the House of Comm"
laaa PI41" he 'flay ent rtain about the
the theatre of
tis nwever been foolish "Hough
e to overturn
twh.
and
TOry°, illiar?4los9l but he with all Constitution, he
the re,n' Whig
"Tr
4td b, • ' aIW4YB united in anything
lagnd in doing
so ih."s,otaila the privileges of parliament;
real liberties of
the titeY have Maintained and preserved theto sup t tend
°tittle taiPle' If we could diminish the evil w
there is no
Mail Chbe Putting an end to the advantage,
the Ministers—
there is ° Would more cordially support
ready than myself to
ithout at the
meet th no.rnari who would be more cannot do so r
spec, e Wishes of the people • but
I d measure. It
Ministers—
is 'to Ns hasty, ill-timed, 'and ill-advise l
islation. I
prec.p.tate
do
rle.Peelliar prov to arrest ' i eg
to
op ' Wish that yokehould have thewith
hut I
i,dt°l,4 the Wishes and feelings of the country)
to have
Inean:o reflect
tiro, ."at More time was allowed for the co.udne_ay,
1 as the
power permanentlytr4_.
upon this measure. I call for
from
Philip.
druak °I calm consideration. " I appeal • this Bill
not io triliP sober." I
wish
to stzr-aleg,ative Reform, but to affirm it-1 ' I
time to con-
sider wh ;I.r' ° that when the people have
this
Bill shall
by negativlnlgv.s. I
say,
hal., he e.uer, When all the enactments of
existence of the
Which
rs',,a,lopted, W 0 shall not have adopted that change
coutrcu's in risk upon one (lie the whole
be rei ;-(Hear) I d not believe that
of pro-
er'
tied with 0
object than that
implore
ring tittle
rot any other
0,. it.
I the
the Bill will
.1:41 to Rraa'r
.. the people to consider '
them from
Ali-
-o,,equerie., theta this time, and save
When an able
peak-
'ilti'gteoro,lt,r'''aneuel tilvir.,lAslliaret?ccnisteem) esnotnetime
ago
askedwa:vsh-ether
Le th, he subject of th 'harter, he was .
ed • and
h„ tit"
the Ch
us to maintai
place
6 :',B‘'ered, , Char the ceould be 'iner maintain
n," er ,ni„, °My is it possible )fors. -
to take the I
' Your el
_s we can create something
both sides.)
;Islt, io tiise boroughs ?--(Hear, hear, from. ''n the
the Privt-
-1 orouthl e
,same manner, whether, without these close
•PR hie,
can
be , the r. prerogatives of the Crown,
profPeaur,. eers, anti the liberties of the Commons
examine the
old 11.,,„ en co-existent ? I believe not. If we there were
Perittis'itY of the
try' shall find that
when
W"
11-?e° vigorous kig': esvere absolute despoe'!--
at aoh,,
..eltlP were deposed, Sometimes
When
dine-noPtdreioda the
arh:, Aristocracy were
the
masters—when
throwers
licel:1 of kip f:-"ies Were the putters}, unp
murdetrerds_when
the Commonsd
4,.,Pat e poast'e ,
oAfter these Limey when e
king
ti'euri
wbeicpeersstiouiliffiegdreateur pot‘oveti:e
time
or that Rl
!here wa':l' We have beep accustomed it) call the. glorious,privi_
was destrvooyue.
lege,
~,--.,-,t constant at u le betwoen prerogative,
end to
these
st,' it °e
Th:bgogrough system has
putneacntion be-
tween tili,!gle,s.--loas maintained a peaceable con-,
people
/lave en. '-e tnree powers • and from that time the
is to be
fod ieJthede p,erf.ec.t lihe'rty. The proof of this
Look
at the „ , tirriinistration of justice and the laws. Look
man
Wit .orninistritiaor, ~,f •• 1
° goes hq
judge - - rirnina justice ,
what are
Political
~".te 4
and jury whet cares
who, in
the
~,In,o.einions of either ? Is there any man_ight will
he 7, migration of civil justice, fears that his i (Hear,
,4, thrieated ort an 1
ii er,) That Y such
account ? Certainly
of ;
and
s.. , wnt the case in the times 0'
when these
ano,!,C,4e Otily hashes
.n. the case from the time
,ed been
Called lien Lave existed.
Anomalies they have Irak__ wt agile` : but I thmk them a perfection which man'.
treste litmus legislators might ave vainly endeavonreevdet..o
Aare ---(Cheers from both ) I wish to submit. IY
Ns
ides
I admit that
are Measure to a full consideration.
and if •you
tentsinihr sonie defects in the borough system •; a
not be-
gin by y (We them, do so, in God's name ; but do
if you
fail, ta destroying the whole fabric. Remember,l
hasrike Constitution will be ruined for ever. Do not act
) If ~
ttia;you 105,, , Jou adopt hasty course at the beginning,
aW 4De flurried for 1t • destruction before you are
r6ta-fi Yitoll.t. situation tilonnr; aatri( td then whenste it is too late, you
it (w` Paetiis
dierosePensustsbAeyteortr4trace your p
re-tr 4: easy t° n
but to
tied revocare gradum superas."
), ; . a''s a measure of this description,
44 -e! Leir steps, aind to
Wonlldulet and security which now prevailed in the St
d ittaede
recover that degree of ordetr,
014 ~ Le rendered dillicult..--(Hear, hear.) lll,evae admitted
e" it Was advisable the great towns should a
Lad yes, though he could not admit that theiriTinhteerveesrtys
pr,ol4lder the existing system, been neglected..
places
diati„ °f, the nourishing condition of these variouss
eone"t!knahed for their commerce and manufactures in this
Was a Y' 48 opa.red with similar places in other cdouinntries,
the
tritis--,Proof that their interests Were not neglected l'rgedu Parlianaent.--(Cheers.) Let it not, therefore, be
tatiito,
,„. as, a reason why Parliament should be reformed from
- ''' notto h. I '
of the great towns in
stto.
.untryrneYert e autntr
el ep
riensetenrteesz
lie did not,
were to be
„afrat'ela.the rneaaure because the great.towns
h.
right)
however,
bee, hired but (if we understood his Lords. 4'
The
Noble! 11 a their Lordships were to be disfranchised.
Luis 't d that they have excluded Pro-
lierryfrom . opposi e deny ,
thee a its due preponderance in tit
St t But WIIP-
e ae.
the
•40 they pretend to regard the 10/. voters.--

103. a week voters—as the representatives of wealth

Reform.

or of poverty ? He implored their Lordships not to pass
the Bill; no good result could possibly arrive from it;
this would only multiply the evils with which it was
hoped to scare them.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lords
opposite said, that this Bill would be a final settle-
ment of the question of Reform. From what docu-
ments did they arrive at drat conclusion ?—( Hear, hear.)
For himself he must say he knew not.—( Hear, hear.)
He begged to ask them if they had rend Mr. Cobbett's
address to the electoral body, which it was proposed to
create umler this new Bill? All persons who knew any-
thing of that man's writings must acknowledge his inge-
nuity and talents ; and did he suppose that they would
put forward opinions which he knew would give offence
to his constituents? Now, admitting this, he asked, could
anything be more revolutionary than this address? He
wished to draw their Lordships' attention to one other
address—it was that of a person whose eloquence all who
knew must admire, and who had afforded the Government
most mateiial assistance. This gentleman, notwithstand-
ing the limits fixed by the Noble Lords, declared his ad-
hesion to ulterior measures—to the vote by ballot, for ex-
ample. Did they agree with this lion. Gentleman ?
(No, ❑o.) Would they hear him out in the pledges he had
proposed ?—(No, no.) They might not, but he was sure
when the critical time came they would miss his support,
and feel the strength of his opposition as they would that of
many of the men who, differing with them upon principle,
supported them upon the same equivocal grounds. He
wished their Lordships particularly to attend to the pledges
which had been made by men of talent and influence to
these three. and-tenpenny voters. He wished them to
look to the baneful power which had been usurped by
those Political Unions which now held sway in many of
the manufacturing to ems. —( Hear, hear.) He wished
their Lordships to avoid the danger of eve❑ tolerating such
assemblies. Such assemblies in this kingdom had their
origin in the Jecebin Clubs, which spread detestation in
another country, and which for a long period, and perhaps
for ever, did then nip the bud of freedom; so much so,
at least, that all thinking men might well entertain a
doubt whether it would ever, with the fullness of hope,
appear again. The first specimen upon a great scale that
we hail in this country of such clubs was the Catholic
Association ; and if men could doubt of the injury which
it originally inflicted, let them only consider the dangers
which were presented by its ghost.—(Hear, hear.) When
the revolution in France took place, who would express a
doubt that it was lamentable in its effects ; but still it
was a revolution which left the country one and undi-
vided ; but if this Bill, in connection with the Irish Bill,
should be carried, it would produce a revolution more la-
mentable still. We might, under any circumstances de-
precate a republic ; but how much more ought we to
deprecate a republic, wherein the interests of one part of
the kingdom would be set at variance with these of
another ; and where discord would alone exist where an
unanimity of feeling had before prevailed. If the Reform
Bill passed, no man could reasonably doubt that a repeal
of the Union roust follow ; and then the inevitable result
would be, that at least, one part of the kingdom would
be left subservient to the sway of some greater
power.—(Cheers.)
Lot d PLUNKETT then rose, but, in consequence of
the al,sence of the Lord Chancellor, was prevented from
addressing the House for some time ; when the Lord
Chancellor had resumed his seat, his Lordship commenced
his address to the House in a tone of voice which was only
upon occasions, audible below the bar. The Noble and
Learned Lord proce-ded to compliment the Peers who had
spoken upon the Opposition side of the House, on the able
and eloquent speeches they had delivered, and to observe,
that when he heard the Noble Earl declare that he had
only of late made up his mind to oppose the Bill, he could
not avoid wondering at the degree of severity and sarcasm
he had brought to the discussion. He admitted the ability
which had been displayed by that Noble Earl ; but he really
could not reconcile his indecision respecting this measure
with the very great severity be exercised against those who
introduced it. On the principle of the question, however,
be could not find one new objection from the Noble Earl.
It was said this Bill went to make a new Constitution ;
and that the Government, as consisting of King, Lords,
and Commons, could no longer be carried on. These
were the only two positions of the Noble Earl—they
were not new ones. Since the commencement of the
discussions on this subject they had been frequently re-
iterated, and they now remained precisely in the situa-
tion that they did before, and would after the discussions.
They were, in fact, mere assertions. It had been as-
serted, upon the authority of Noble Lords opposite,
that the Ministers proceeded upon a fanciful theory,
and that the grievances of the people were merely ideal;
and that in pursuance of a mere speculation, Minis-
ters were destroying the established system, without
any true regard to the public good ; that they were
injuring all the great interests of the country, and com-
mitting excessive injustice towards individuals. To all
these propositions he begged leave to offer a denial. He
would not, however, be content with this ; but would say
farther, he did not rest upon this denial, but would endea-
vour to show the grounds upon which he made it. It had
been observed, that this Bill went to confiscate the rights
of the people. He was entirely at variance with this
opinion ; and he considered that the persons who made
the objections were themselves the usurpers of the people's
rights. He regarded the measure as purely remedial and
reconstructive, and that the rejection of it was attended
with danger, not imaginary, remote, and transitory, but I
real, immediate, and overwhelming. When the Noble
Earl stated his hesitation in arriving at any conclusion
upon this question, he could help suspecting from his
speech that there was something more than a mere desire
to acquire information in his breast. The Noble Earl,
however, had not brought forward one single argument
against the principle of the Bill. But he thought that at
this stage the question ought to he solely put to the test
of reason and argument. With their Lordships' permis-
sion, and be assured them he would not trespass long on
their attention, he would proceed to argue the asser-
tions he had ventured. There was one great satisfac-
tion in defending this measure at the moment that
there was nobody who had spoken from the opposite side,
except one Noble Earl, who declared himself altogether
opposed to Reform, or who did net consider that
some Reform was necessary.—(Cries of " No, no, no.")
He believed that there was only one Noble Earl who had
declared himself positively opposed to Reform.—(No, no.)
It was impossible he could know what was passing in the
breasts of Noble Lords; but he did not think any Noble
Lord had given utterance to any positive objection to Re-
form. The Noble Earl to whom be alluded, too, had
taken rather a whimsical course. He said the measure
proposed was neither beneficial to the Sovereign nor the
people, but was simply brought forward to keep the pre-
sent Government in their places—(Hear, hear, hear)—
and that then many evils would result from this; of which
the first would be war with Portugal; and the next and
greater evil would be, that then we should have no war
with France.—(Hear, hear.) Then all hereditary titles
and property were to be destroyed, and all funded property
to boot ; in short, all things fostered by the French Go-
vernment before the revolution. Every Noble Lord who
spoke was, in his mind, excepting one, disposed to some
degree of Parliamentary Reform.
The Earl of FALMOUTH—No, no.
Lord PLUNKETT begged his pardon. He did not
wish to fasten upon the Noble Earl so odious an imputa-
tion. He might he permitted, however, to observe, that
very many of the Noble Lords who had spoken on the
other side were favourable to some degree of Reform, and
yet it was strange that in their declarations of hostility to
this Bill, they made declarations which were equally
hostile to all Reform.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He did
not think that the Noble Lords who opposed the
measure had generally been very happy in their argu-
ments against it, or in the way in which they brought them
forward; hut there was one Noble Lord whom he regretted
to find against the measure. That Noble Lord had
spoken with peculiar ability, and great force and elo-
quence; and when the Noble Viscount observed that the
Noble Marquis behind had not answered the arguments of
that Noble Earl, he admitted the fact. He admitted the
Noble Viscount was correct in his argument; but he con-
tended, that from the very extensive admissions made by
the Noble Earl, he had not the means of answering his
arguments. The Noble Earl gave up the nomination
boroughs—he would grant representatives to the large
towns—he would increase the constituency of die ennetiee
—he would have no objection to a measure, and by no
means an inconsiderable measure, of Reform--he consi-
dered that such a measure must be granted to the country;
and in a word, the Noble Earl had offered no objection
which -night not be satisfactorily met in the Committee.
—(No, no.) He thought, however, notwithstanding this
expression of dissent, that, after the admissions of tha
Noble Earl, he was correct in his conclusions.—(NO, no.)
He must say that, considering the way in which the mea-
sure came before their Lordships, it was entitled to their
most deliberate and indulgent attention. It had been in-
troduced by a set of persons than whom none were less
exposed to the charge of personal motives. Session after
session, year after year, they had supported the Noble
])uke with a degree of self.devotion which was beyond
example in his measures for the improvement of the
country, and especially in the great question which con-
ferred their rights upon the Roman Catholics—a measure
which, he admitted, entitled the Noble Duke to the inter-
!' minable gratitude oh the nation. In the month of No.

veinher last the Noble Dulie, he believed, retired, and his
retirement was connected with the subject of Parliamentary

The Duke of WELLINGTON—No !.
Lord PLUNKETT said he did not wish to misrepresent
he Noble Duke. But he believed the Noble Duke had

said, that Feeling he had not the confidence of the House
of Commons, and apprehending that if the question of
Reform was brought forward, upon which he I,ad ex-
pressed a decided opinion, he would he left in a minority.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the Noble Lord

misrepresented him. What he had said was, that finding
he did not possess the confidence of the House of Com-
mons he had decided upon retiring from his Maj,sty's ser-
vice, and h had fixed upon the day of his retirement, on
ziecount of the vote which had been given against his Ad-

•
ministration upon a particular day. He had stated over
and over again, and in the presence of the Noble Lord, and
he stated it again to-night, that he bad retired because he
did not thiok it expedient that he, not possessing the con-
fidence of the House of Commons, should attempt to go

on. He saw, from a vote of the Ilouse of Commons,
that he did not possess its confidence, and he did not,
with this knowledge, think it becoming his character,

either as an individual or a Minister of the Crown, to at-

mpt, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, to

carry on the Government.
Lard PLUNKETT said that he understood the Noble
Mike had accompanied that statement by the expression of
his apprehension, that in consequence of the want of con-
fidence which the House of Commons had shown in his
Government, he should be defeated on the question of Par-
liamentary Reform.
The Duke of WELLINGTON repeated, that he had
no intention of resigning until after the decision of the
House of Commons on the question of the Civil List.

He fixed on the day upon which he had resigned, because
there was a great question, whether relating to Parliamen-
tary Reform or any other subject, coming un in the House
of Commons, and he did not conceive that it would be
advantageous to the public that that question should be
debated by a Government which had lost the confidence of
the Hous,.

Lord PLUNKETT resumed, and said that the impres-
sion on his mind had certainly been that the Noble Duke
had resigned in consequence of his apprehension that he
should be defeated on the question of Parliamentary Re-
form. Nay, further, he had understood the Noble Duke
to have declared, not only that he was not prepared him-
. .

self to bring forward any question of Reto:m, but that he
could not consent to form a part of any Administration
prepared to bring forward any plan of Reform.—(The
Duke of WELLINGTON, across the table—" No, no.") He
(Lord Plunkett) was in the judgment of the House whether
that was not the impression made by what had fallen from
the Noble Duke on the occasion to which he alluded ?

(Several Noble Lords exclaimed, " No, no, no.")
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. He should
neglect his duty in the situation which he had the honour
to hold as the Speaker of that House, if he did not tender
to their Lordships his suggestion and advice as to what ap-
peared to him to be an undoubted point of order. That
suggestion was, that there was one, and but one, orderly
mode of setting a Noble Lord right with respect to any
erroneous statement which he might be supposed to make.
If a Noble Lord misrepresented another Noble Lord either
wilfully (which, however, was not to be presutmd possible)
or inadvertently, and the Noble Lord so misrepresented
chose to set himself right with their Lordships, the only
time to do so, according to the strict order of the House, was
after the Noble Lord had sat down in whose speech the al-
!edged misrepresentation occurred. But it constantly hap-
pened, and it was a most convenient practice in order to
prevent a long argument founded on an involuntary misre-
presentatation, that in such a case a slight interruption of
the Noble Lord who was speaking was permitted. Such
a practice, however, must have its limits. After one or
two such interruptions, any further interference could be
productive of nothing but confusion. The time would ar-
rive at which a correction of the shtement might be made
• with strict propriety. He was sure that the Noble Duke's
good sense would show him the propriety of this rule.
He would only state further that there was one species of
setting a Noble Lord, who was speaking, right, that was
contrary to all order ; he meant the interruption of mere
bystanders, of Noble Lords who were not misrepresented,
and who were not parties personally interested on the
subject.—(Hear, hear.)

The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that if the' Noble

and Learned Lord chose to go into a chain of reasoning
founded on a mis-statement of the fact, he (the Duke)
could not help it ; hut he would assure the Noble Lord that
he should proceed without any further interruptionfrom him.
Lml PLUNKETT declared that nothing could be further

from his wish or intention than to mis-state anything which
had fallen from the Noble Duke. Undoubtedly there was
a marked difference on the occasion to which he had alluded,
between the sentiments of the Noble Duke and the senti.
ments of a Right Hon. Colleague of the Noble Duke's.
The Noble Duke had stated not only that he was not pre-
pared to propose any measure of Parliamentary Reform,
but that so long as he held office he should strenuously
oppose such a measure. But the Noble Duke's Right
Hon. Colleague had stated in the other House of Parlia-
ment, that—
The Earl of HARROWBY rose to order. It was not

in conformity to their Lordships' rules to support any
alleged difference of opinion between a Noble Lord and
any other individual, by a reference to what that other
individual might have been supposed to have said in the
other House of Parliament. Such a practice was con-
trary to the orders of both Houses.
Lord HOLLAND, on the contrary, maintained that it
was not disorderly to allude to what the Right Hon.
Baronet in question had said in a former Parliament, because
that had now become matter of history.
Lord PLUNKETT observed that if it was disorderly to
make such allusions, he was surprised that the Noble Earl
who had last spoken had been allowed to make them so
copiously. The Right Hon. Baronet to whom he alluded
had declared, not loosely and vaguely, but in a steady cau-
tious manner, that the then Cabinet was not prepared
with any plan of Reform ; and that, therefore, having
been beaten on the question of the Civil List, he felt it his
duty to resign. The Noble Duke had declared not only
that he was not prepared with any plan of Parliamentary
Reform, but that while he remained a Minister of the
Crown he should feel it to be his duty to resist any mea-
sure of that nature that might he proposed. The result
which he (Lord Plunkett) drew from this was that the
late Administration broke up under the impression that in
the circumstances in which they found themselves placed,
they would be unable to meet the question of Parliamen-
tary Reform in the House of Commons. The present
Administration was then formed, avowedly on the principle
of Parliamentary Reform, and with the conviction that
the Government of this country could not go on without
it. The late Administration had no option but to resign.
Was it any ground for attack on his Noble Friend that,
being called upon by his Sovereign to carry on the Go-
vernment of the country, he had felt it his imperative duty
to obey that call, and that he did undertake to carry on
the Government of the country under the very difficult
and arduous circumstances of the time? His Noble
Friend, immediately on the acceptance of office, had
stated to their Lordships and the country the prin-
ciples on which alone he felt that he could carry on the
Government. The prime and chief of those principles
was Parliamentary Reform, and accordingly, with as much
speed as the circumstances of the case would admit, the
question of Reform was brought under the consideration
of the late Parliament. A Noble Lord had asserted, with
reference to the feeling of the people at that period on the
question of Reform, that it was only a breeze, which his
(Lord Plunkett's) Noble Friend and his colleagues bad
fanned into a hurricane. Now, he (Lord Plunkett) did
not think that a breeze could have driven the Noble
Duke from his post. He was sure it must have been a
hurricane. That hurricane his Noble Friend had adopted
the only rational means of allaying. A measure had
been introduced into the House of Commons in the late
Parliament substantially the same as that now under the
consideration of their Lordships. The measure had been
canvassed in all its parts by both sides of the House. It
had undergone a severe scrutiny on the part both of the
friends and of the enemies of Reform. On the first divi-
sion upon that Bill the majority was only one ; and Mi-
nisters, finding that they could not carry it through that
House of Commons, took the opinion of his Majesty on
the expediency of appealing to the sense of the people on
the subject. It was an undoubted prerogative of the
King to dissolve Parliament for that purpose ; and it was
accordingly dissolved for the express and avowed purpose
of ascertaining the sense of the people on the question of
Parliamentary Reform. That sense the people expressed
almost with unanimity; and they expressed it with refer-
ence not only to Parliamentary Reform generally, but to
this particular measure, which , had previously been so
closely canvassed in the late Parliament. They had even
delegated Members to support that particular measure. lie
appealed to their Lordships whether the late elections had not
been conducted with a degree of order that—(A laugh)—
perhaps the Noble Lords who interrupted him alluded to
Ireland; but none of the disturb.ances which had occurred
in that country had been connected with the elections.—
(Hear, hear, oh, oh.) Really these interruptions were
very disorderly, and if they were persevered in, he should
feel it impossible to go on. A Noble Lord had made an
. attack upon this subject not merely on the Government,
but on the people. He had declared that they were in-

capable of forming an opinion on the measure. Yet the
tranquillity and propriety, although at the same time the
firmness and determination with which they had conducted
themse;ves at the late elections, proved that they were

capable of forming an opinion on it. If the elections were
conducted with the greatest tranquillity and propriety, the
discussions in the House of Commons were carried on with

equal delib;ration and perseverance, and the proposed
measure, after some amendments were made in it, passed
through the House of Commons by a majority approaching
as nearly to unanimity as could possibly he expected in a
litigated proceeding. Such being the facts, it appeared to
him to he most extraordinary, that a Noble Marquis should

assert that the petitions of the people were for Reform
generally, and not for this specific measure. Having passed
through the House of Commons, the measure was now
before their Lordship ; and surely it was entitled to some
consideration. Their Lordships were only exercising their

just rights and privileges in investigating the merits
of the measure. Bot still they ought to look to
the consequences which might ensue from its ri-jec-
tion. Although their Lordships were only exercising their
just rights and privileges us investigating the merits of the
measure, it was no light recollection that they were sit-
ting on a measure upon which the judgment of the people
of England had been already pronounced; on a measure
which related peculiarly, and indeed exclusively to the
rights and privileges of the people. And, therefore, Ile
could not too anxiously implore their Lordships, before
they adopted the desperate resolution of rejecting the Bilk
to reflect upon the consequences which might follow such
a step. Whatever might be the fate of the Bill, every
thinking ma❑ must be satisfied that it was entitled to
their Lordships' most respectful attention, supported as
it was by the wishes of the whole people of England. It
was true that he bad beard some smart sarcasms thrown
out upon the people of England.—(No, no.) Yes ; some
smart sarcasms, and polished epigrams. But be must beg
leave to say, that the people of England, to judge from
their conduct on this occasion, wore not a light, giddy,

fantastic multitude—that they were not a wild rabble
.i.ctlng under the influence of a temporary delusion. On
he contrary, they had shown themselves to be a great,
a moral, a virtuous community ; as much entitled to re-
spect, and having as strong claims to the consideratio❑ of
their opinion, as any nation either in ancient or modern
times:

When, therefore, it was asserted that the presem
measure must not be carried, because, if it were, carried, the
people would overturn the throne, the altar, and the church
lie denied the truth of the assertion. The people of Eng-
land were tea wise, they were too sensible of the value of
the blessings which they enjoyed, to be guilty of any such
rash and foolish conduct. If our institutions were such
s-
taasionutghlt eioit.o beTshuestain
assertion
the
rtiot
lt peopleolvi,ieiof England ,
healsfoiri
was not only a libel upon the people of England, it was
also a libel on our iustitutions. Had their Lordships any
reason to believe that the feeling of the people on this sub-
ject would die away? Had they any reason to believe
that the opinion of the great majority of the House of
Commons respecting it would change ? If not, and they
rejected the Bill, they would lock the wheels of the two
Houses of Parliament in such a manner that the machine
of the State could not go on. What would be the conse-
quence of such a state of things ? A Noble Lord had told
them that lie did not regard the consequences ; but that
feeling certain inconveniences attendant on the measure,
be would shut his eyes to the consequences of rejection,
and reject it. Such, however, he (Lord Plunkett) hoped
was not the general feelings of their Lordships. They
would regard consequences ; and he therefore called upon
them to consider how the affairs of the country could be
conducted after the rejection of the Bill. Where was an
Administration to be found with strength and means to
carry on the Government of the country? The Noble Duke
opposite would undoubtedly be the first person to whom the
eves of the public would be turned under such circumstances.
But if the Noble Duke found it impossible to carry on the
Government at the period at which he bad resigned office,
was it possible that he would be able to carry it on under the
circumstances which the rejection of the Bill by their Lord-
ships must necessarily create? If, at the former pe-
riod, feeling be had lost the confidence of the then House
of Commons, the Noble Duke had resigned from an ap-
prihension that his Government would be defeated in the
approaching trial of strength in that House, did he think
would have a better prospect with the present House of
Commons? What the Noble Duke's views of Reform
were, be had openly stated. What might be the course
pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet, recently the Noble
Duke's colleague, it was indeed not so easy to determine,
anibiguoua as had been that Right Hon. Baronet's decla-
ration with respect to the extent of Reform in which he
was disposed to concur. It was not the threat of violence
or of insurrection which he felt assured was likely to influ-
' ence their Lordships. He was well assured that there was
not one of the Members of their Lordships' House, whe-
ther a supporter or opponent of the Bill, who would not
with heart and hand join the Government in every exer-
tion to repress any attempt at violence or a disturbance o
the public tranquillity. The danger was not that the
people would be guilty of any acts of violence ; for they r
seemed to posses too much temperance and discretion fo.
a course of that kind ; but the danger was that the Go
vernment could not go on ; that public confidence would
be withdrawn from the authorities, and that the country
would be reduced to utter anarchy—a condition much
more fearful and more formidable than any in which they
could be placed by ill-concerted popular disturbances. The
danger was, that the feelings of intense disappointment
which followed the delay of the measure which they had
so much at heart, would, if not allayed by prompt con-
cession at the present moment, burst out at the hour
of difficulty and distress in such a manner that the
Government would cease to be respected, and the State
reduced to anarchy and confusion.—(Hear.) He knew
well there was a considerable number of their Lordships,
who would be glad to discover any reasons which could
induce them to think the safety of the institutions of
the country could be reconciled with the provisions of the
Bill. (Hear, hear.) He should therefore take leave to
direct their attention more particularly to the question be-
fore them, and lie would ask them what it was they were
called on to do? Ott what point they were called to com-
mit themselves with respect to the national institutions.-...,
(Hear.) In the first place, then, he would ask them,
were they in their proper place when they threatened to
commit themselves in a dissension with the Commons on
the subject of a Reform of their system of representation?
The House of Lords was invested by the Constitution
with high and important privileges, and possessed an
undoubted right to exercise their independent and un-
biassed judgment on every question which could be pre-
sented to them. They were the hereditary Counsellors of
the Crown, Judges in many criminal and civil coos's, en-
joying a well understoodt espe
e placetn
and
din r
reverence
eSoteaote,
of aand
great en entitled
to and receiving the respect
ma-
jority of their fellow-subjects.—(Hear.) When, therefore,
it was said that their Lordships were bound to maintain
the rights and privileges of their station, he would ask,
were there any of them endangered by the Bill ?—( Hear.)
What was it, then, that the Members of that House
claimed ? Why they claimed also to retain the power, to
iof f thethe I louse
throne, f Commonsor o
f tthe
share in the representation of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
claimedT her might
to becases in
share
in the which,
rights House of Lords, that their Lordships would be bound to
resist, at whatever risk, or whatever cost. But was this
a case of that kind? Was it fitting that the House of
Lords should enter into a struggle with the House of
Commons, in order to retain the right of controulling a
portion of the representatives of the people ?—(Hear.)—
Do as you would be done by, was a maxim at once
simple and sublime, and bearing distinctive marks of the
sublimity of its origin.—(Hear, hear.) If the House
cf Lords found it necessary to regulate the concerns
of their own House, and the distribution of the titles of a
hereditary Peerage, and to send an Act of Parliament for
that purpose to the House of Commons, would nut the
Members of the House of Peers think themselves very un-
fairly treated if the Commons rejected that act, or if they
introduced such modifications and amendments as totally
altered its nature, and nullified the advantages expected to
be derived from it—modifications to which their Lord-
ships would feel themselves bound to submit ? The two
cases, he admitted, were violent ones, but, in point of prin-
ciple, they were the same as that now presented to their
Lordships attention. The principle, in fact, which their
Lordships claimed, to retain a power over the representa-
tion of the people, was an unintelligible principle. It was
a claim on the part of the oligarchy to retain a portion of
the democracy, and he confessed he could not understand
t, e defied en the professors
which
hf phrenology oleoigt
enable
ltoo
manfinti
an
g of fcomprehensiveness
to
understand it.
There was, however, another point con-
nected with the
Principle which deserved to he mentioned.
The Members of the House of Lords did not possess the
privilege of sharing in the representation of the Commons.
There was many who hail no part in it. Those who did
not possess the power were, therefore, thrown into the
Aristocracy
or words
w with ntiving
shownic'ot he the
should
g respect t t shade of the others, and it was one of the merits of the
Bill that it placed all their Lordships on an equal footing
that
in this respect, and put an end to those privileges which
were odious to the people and unjust with respect to their
claimedno, by
Lordships
say a
themselves.
fewthe
the Bill would produce on the rights of the throne.
Those rights were well known to their Lordships. He
were
e tenable,i the effect whichroub
dlt'
need not, therefore, explain them ; but he contended that

the Bill did not in the slightest degree interfere with
them. He believed that no doubt was cast on the right
of the King to call up whom he pleased to share in
the hereditary honours of that House. Into that question,
therefore, he should not enter. He had beard no one
either express a doubt that the King had a right to make
himself known to his people, and to prove his title to
reign in the hearts of his loyal subjects. He knew that
a great deal of constitutional trash had been put forth on
this subject. That the King's name was not to be used
to influence the debates of either House, was a maxim
not to be qu,stioned ; that the King could do no wrong
Was a principle of the Constitution ; but tn hear it as-
serted, as they had frequently done in the course of the I
debates, that the King of Englanda descendant of the
House of Hanover, of that family which had been brought
to this country to secure the tights and liberties of the
people—to hear it said that such a King was not at
liberty to make himself known to his subjects ss their patron
and the defender of their privileges, was a kind of trash
not to be listened to for an instant ,—(Hear, hear.) His-
tory had been ransacked in the course of these debates ;
hut it seemed onl7 for the purpose of perverting the facts
which were to be found its it. They had heard of the
times when boroughs were suits:semed to send Members,
and when they ceased to exercise that right ; but he ap-
prehended these were stal*cts much fitter for the antiqua-
rian than the statesman, and not at all connected with the
question under their Lordships' consideration. There
seemed indeed to be no doubt that the King issued writs
at his pleasure, in the earliest times, in order to false the
opinions of his people with respect to the measures to he
executed ; but lie should like to know how the practice of
selling seats could have any connection with the preserva-
tion of the Government. He could conceive a case in
which a measure demanded by the unanimous voice of the
people, and recommended by the King, might be resisted
by those t,lits possessed the power of :selling seats. He
coul conceive a cane in which the King might wish to
choose the persons who ttere to form his Government,
• and the measures they were to carry into effect, and
yet that the 150 persons who traded in or purchased
these seats might nay that they could not consent to this,
• because it would endanger the Monarchy anti the national
F institutions. The argument of these persons is, that if
the people were fairly represented, and their power taken
: away, the Government could not go on. Pot what does
that amount to? Why, this—that the Government of
England is not a representative Government.—(Hear.)
In a representative Government the people have no right
to interfere personally in the affairs of that Government,
for that would be democracy—but then they are excluded
only because they are fairly represented.—(Hear.) if the
• people were altogether excluded, that would be aristo-
cracy—if admitted to interfere in the affairs of Government
without restrictions, that would be democracy ; but the
representation of the people, a full and fair representation,
united with the aristocracy and the Sovereign, formed
that mingled system which was the Constitution of Eng.
f land.

A Nobi Earl opposite (we believe Carnarvon;

contended that the strengthening of popular representation
would destroy the Constitution. He (Lord P.) contended
that the Constitution is destroyed the moment it was de-
clared not to be representative. What could be more
monstrous in the present state of public feeling than to hear
it asserted that these boroughs are retained as a part of the
Constitution, because they do not represent the people,
and that there would be an end of the. laws, of our insti-
tutions, of Church and State, and of the Whole Constitu-
tion, if that representation was to be rendered perfect by
the destruction of such boroughs? He confessed he felt
ashamed that night in hearing the name of the Divine
Author of our being made use of by a Noble Earl in de-
fending a system of so touch hypocrisy ; and he trusted
that the Right Reverend Prelates, who had been so often
appealed to, would feel it to be an additional reason
for putting an end to the juggling system which called
that hypocrisy into action. If the theory of the Con-
stitution supported the arguments used on that sub-
ject, he should like to know where that theory was to be
found ? In what treaties, in what author, were they to
look for it? The system, as far as he could understand it,
was this—a Noble Lord had a borough, for which he re-
ceived either 5,0001. or 1,000/. a year, as need be ; or i,
nominated for some other consideration two persons to
represent him in the Commons House of Parliament.
These persons revolved round the great proprietor on his
orbit. They, again, had others who, at an humbler
distance, revolved round them ; and so the whole per-
formed their septennial revolutions on the system assigned
to them. This was the plan ; but he defied Descartes
himself to explain, or reconcile this plan of whirls and
gyrations with the order of the system in which it was
found. The secret, indeed, seemed to be communicated
to but a few. The inhabitants of borough A and B wet e I
favoured depositories of this secret of nature, and to them
was entrusted the power of sending forth missionaries to
propagate the faith, and to oppose all efforts of unbelievers
to disturb or to change it. It had been said that the
Constitution of the Houses of Parliament had undergone
no change, and that no attempt should be made to amend
it. Why, the Constitution of the House of Lords was
undergoing continual changes. The original right to sit
in that House was by tenure of land ; but scarcely a shred
of that original right was now left in the present posses-
sors of that privilege. It was altered when the two mitred
Abbots were swept away in the reign of Henry the Eighth.
It was altered by the Union with Ireland, which introduced
Peers to sit for life; by the Union with Scotland, which
brought in Peers for a Session, and by the permission to
the Irish Bishops to come in by rotation. Difficulties
were, however, raised with respect to the extent of the
change introduced by the Bill, and was it contended that
having admitted so much, they must go still further.
What, he would ask, in measures of thit kind, was the
duty of a Statesman? It was the duty of a Statesman to
watch the demands of the state—take a high position in
ministering to the people's wants—to examine what are
their rights, to ascertain what are his duties, and, if he
felt it in his power to do good, to raise the standard and
advance.—(Hear.) When the end was accomplished, it
was equally his duty to moderate the popular demands ;
and when .he found he had led them to a state of happi-
ness and safety, to advise them as a friend, or to resist
them as a leader, and to insist on their not invading the pro-
vince of the Li gislature, or continuing to disturb the state
of tranquillity and happiness earned by their previous ex-
ertions. That was the province of a Minister and a
Statesman ; and he was confident that, exercised as he
knew it would be, they had nothing to dread from the
growing good sense of the people of England, or any rea-
son to apprehend that they would seek to pass the hounds
which the Legislature allotted them--(Hear.) After
observing that he saw nothing in some of the foolish de-
mands formerly put forth in Westminster and elsewhert, on
the subject of suffrage and the duration of Parliament, to
justify him in thinking that the great mass of the people
would not be satisfied with the degree of power conferred
by the Bill, the Noble and Learned Lord proceeded to
answer the arguments of those who contended that
the Constitution worked well; and argued that it was a
great fallacy to say, because our institutions were good,
that our system of representation must be also good. The
laws and institutions of the country deserved far higher
panegyrics than be had language to bestow on them. The
Judges of the land were honest and learned. The Juries
were upright—justice was impartially administered. Our
armies were brave—our navies admirably appointed. The
finances well regulated—(A laugh from the Opposition)
—all the institutions of the country were the most perfect
that the wit of man could devise ; but the great good was
wanted. The people were not satisfied—(Hear, hear,
hear, from both sides of the House)—and it mattered not
bow well fed, or how well clothed they might be, unless
they were also sensible of enjoyment and content with
their share of political rights. If working well was
enough, why, he would ask, did not the Parliament of
Ireland work well ? There were in that Parliament 200
persons, who were as completely independent of the people
of Ireland as if they had been elected in Siberia ; and yet
there never perhaps was a Parliament more profligately
corrupt. The very profligacy of that Parliament was
the cause which made the Union necessary. But although
that system of representation was so bad, the country
advanced from comparative barbarism to civilization, and
from poverty to wealth. She had thrown off her had laws,
she had repealed her barbarous penal code. Under the
auspices of the ancestors of my Noble Friend, Lord Charle-
mont, and my Itlustrious Friend, Mr. Grattan, she had ob-
tained free trade. She had obtained these advantages under
a system of representation so grossly imperfect that it was
thought necessary to extinguish it. It was the same as
to Scotland. It was ludicrous to talk of the Scotch system
of representation, and yet Scotland bad made the mosi
rapid advance in prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) The Scotch
people were actually in the enjoyment of a high degree of
prosperity and improvement, and still the people of that
country were not in a state of quietness ; they were in a
state bordering on fury, on the chance even of the Bill
theirtv
ie
,ode nrg see
ort
rights,
f ah etxGsp, enlightened,loaavi
nenrtnhmalatieitbdne;
Government,
ixi
and
layttsie.dn d
aeTi
extended their
desire
srhuieernieira,
ebnkryen
obolst.vhl nature.endr: In pro-
Loing rejected.—(Hear, hear.) It needed no great know-
portion as people were prosperous—in proportion as they
re-
moved, in
to obtain permanent security for their
that proportion did they become sensible of the imperfee-
et—ptohrpjoeiupcmssetr
ty,
on
which he should like to address their Lordships, but he
would not trouble them any further. The Noble Lord
sat down amidst amnia cheers.

Earl ORE 7 and Lord Wes:roan rose together;
call of the House was for
Earl GREY, who went on to state, that it was certain
that the debate could not be finished to-night, and certain
that it must be continued to-morrow; and therefore he
proposed that the debate he then adjourned.—(Cries of
" Adjourn," and " Go on," most of their Lordships rose
•
to go away.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question of ad-
journment.
Lord WYNFORD, amidst much confusion, made an
effort to address their Lordships. We understood him to
soy that he was ready, though he must always feel embar-
rassment in addressing their Lordships on such a subject,
to go on then, and he felt confident that he should ad-
vance sods facts hearing on the principle of the Bill,whick
the Noble and Learned Lord had promised to explain, but
bad not, and draw such inferences from them, as would
satisfy their Lordships, and even demonstrate to them,
that the II ili ought not to be adopted. If, however, the
Noble Earl found proceeding personally inconvenient to
he would not then press to continue the debate.—
(" Go on," and " adjourn.")
Earl GRR could not claim any personal indulgence
from their Lordships: He had already received a large
share in being allowed to address them at great length,
and hoped to meet the same indulgence should a reply be
necessary ; but he felt that his attention was then ex-
hae,ted ; and as there was no hope of concluding the de-
bate to-eight, he proposed that the House should then ad-
porn. They might probably bring the debate to a con-
clusion to-morrow, and he should propose, therefore, that
they should begin at an earlier hour. He would say they
aright meet as usual at four o'clock, and present petitions
.
till five, and begin the debate punctually at that time, and •
he had no doubt that it might be concluded to-morrow
(this a
Their).
Lordships)—(‘6
Adsjeoeumrnes.,aattlo assentjourn.")
to this proposition,
end rose to go away; when the Duke of Wellington, Earl
Grey, and the Earl of Eldon, entered into a conversation
relative to the further proceedings. Earl Grey proposed,
we understood, that their Lordships should sit it out to-
morrow. Some objections were made to that ; and it
was finally settled that if the debate could not he conve-
niently closed to-morrow, their Lordships should meet on
Saturday, at ten o'clock, to bring it to a conclusion.
Adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock till Four o'clock
this day.