The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-10 00:00:00

CHURCH-RATES.

Mr. B. OSBORNE presented a petition from Wake-
field, praying for the abolition of church-rates.
CUSTOMS DUTIES.

Mr. EWART presented a petition from the same
place, praying for a reduction of the Excise and Customs
duties generally, and especially of the duty on tea.
ECCLESIASTICAL LAW.

An HoN. MEMBER presented a petition, praying for
an amendment of the ecclesiastical law, so as to enable
clergymen seceding from the Church of England to offi-
ciate as Dissenting ministers.
GREENWICH PENSIONERS,
Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from 500
out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital praying the House
to take their case into consideration and enable them
to recover certain stoppages which had been made from
their pensions.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES.

Mr. HORSMAN presented a petition, from Sander-
land complaining of the distribution of the temporalities
of the Rectory of Bishopswearmouth.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition from Wake-
field, praying for the abolition of ecclesiastical courts.
THE 'NAVIGATION-LAWS.

Mr. •LABOITCH—E—Riga—ve notice of his intention to
move for a Committee of the whole House on Friday
next•to consider the navigation-laws.
Mr.- ROBINSON was anxious to know from the
Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to
put the House in possession of the resolutions he in-
tended to move relative to the navigation-laws, before
the House went into Committee on the subject.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that it was his intention
to adopt the same course he did in the last session,
namely, to move for a Committee of the whole House on
the subject, and as he should then state to the Com-
mittee the resolutions he intended to propose, he
must decline putting the House in possession of it
until after he had explained to the Committee the course
he intended to pursue.
THE RECTORY OF BISHOPS WEARMOUTH.
Mr. HORSMAN wished to ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government whether he was enabled
to tell the House what the new arrangements were with
respect to the distribution of the temporalities of the
rectory of Bishopswearmouth since the death of Dr.
Wellesley.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in "Consequence of the
intimation he had received from the Hon. Member, he
had written to the Bishop of Durham, informing him of
what had passed, at the same time stating to him that
it was entirely at his option whether he gave the
information or not. The Bishop, in his answer, stated
that he did not recognise the right to ask him
hadthe qeueesteiohnje,
objection
nthotue furnishtfurtherr inquiry;themeans
of giving but that he
all the imformation required, and in his power.
It appeared that when the vacancy occurred by the
death of Dr. Wellesley a deputation waited upon the
Bishop and stated that it was their wish that
a new division should take place with respect
to the revenues of the rectory. Those revenues
consisted of tithes, of the rents of the glebe lands,
and the rents of way leaves for coals. The whole
value of the rectory of Bishopswearmouth in the time of
the late incumbent was 3,6281., out of which the pay-
ments he had to make amounted to 1,6051., leaving
2,023 i. The future rector would receive 1,2001.; the
remainder would be placed in the hands of trustees for
the four incumbents.
____

On the motion of Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL leave
of absence was given to Mr. Maurice O'Connell for a
month, on account of indisposition.
THE SECESSION OF MINISTERS OF THE
ESTABLISHED CHURCH.

Mr. GRANGER wished to ask Lord John Russell
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
during the present session to bring forward any measure
to relieve clergymen who had seceded from the Estab-
lished Church against the penal consequences of ecclesi-
astical censures, incurred by preaching in other places of
worship.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention
of her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill on the
subject referred to.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for
Kilmarnock had given notice of his intention to intro-
duce a Bill on the subject.
COMMITTEE ON IRISH POOR-LAWS.

Mr. lIENRY inquired if it was the intention of the
Government to propose an enlargement of the Committee
on the Irish poor-laws; and also whether it was their in-
tention to propose that Mr. Bright be a member.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was intended to enlarge
the Committee, and that it was intended to add the name
of Mr. Bright.—(Hear, hear.)
THE REVENUE.

Mr. J. B. SMITH asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether any steps had been taken by the Go-
vernment to carry out, wholly or in part, the resolution
of the House of the 30th of May last, proposed by Dr.
Bowring, and whether the gross receipt of revenue,
averaging about 7,000,0001. per annum, which has
hitherto been stopped in its progress to the Exchequer,
will in future be paid into the Exchequer, and placed
under the direct authority and control of Parliament?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that steps had been taken by the Government to carry
out the resolutions proposed in May last, as far as
was practicable. With respect to the latter; part
of the question, it was not so easy to give an answer—
steps were taken, as he had stated, to awry out the
resolution whenever practicable; but he could not under-
take to say that all the surplus received into the Exche-
quer would be voted by Parliament.
HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND)

ACT.
On the motion that the House go into Committee upon
the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said he was compelled to say
that he had not yet heard a single argument which had
convinced him that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act was necessary in Ireland. Whatever might be the
opinions which were entertained by persons with refe-
rence to the prejudices and feelings that existed in that
country, he must say that there were no feel-
ings of disloyalty now existing. There might
have been some such feelings at one period,
but he believed they had been grossly exaggerated
by interested agitators. There could be no doubt that
political agitators were now looked upon with great dis-
gust in Ireland. The suspension of this Act would have
the effect of putting down constitutional agitation, which
was the best safeguard for the liberties of a free country.
He would ask the free-trade party in that House
not to assist the Government on the present occasion
and deprive the Irish people of every vestige of their
liberty for the time might come when the same course
would be used against themselves for the purpose of
putting down all expressiOn of opinion in Lancashire
and Yorkshire.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped it would
not be permitted in Ireland, because it would tend
to the subversion to everything like political discussion
or liberty.—(Hear, hear.) Considering the wretchedness
which now existed in the west of Ireland, he was of
opinion that if the Government relief measure was not
adopted thousands would die of starvation in a day.
—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances he
felt constrained to vote for that measure,
but until they went to the root of the evils of that
country, there would be continual agitation, and annual
applications for votes of the present nature. Last ses-
sion Lord John Russell had expressed his opinion of
the necessity of some great measures for Ireland, and he
felt disappointed that the Government had not come for-
ward with them. The only great measure this session
appeared to be the suspension
.of the Habeas Corpus
Act.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Noble Lord
would come forward with some comprehensive measure
to remove the evils which the bad legislation of this
country had produced in Ireland. The question now
before the House had been fully debated by
Members more able than himself, but he thought he
should be wanting in his duty if he did not fairly ex-
press his opinion that there would be no end to votes of
money for the relief of Ireland unless some effec-
tive measures of redress were introduced. The
poor-law was no doubt a good foundation to
begin upon, but there were many. other grievances,
such as the abominable grand jury laws, which
ought immediately to be inquired into. They
ought to look to the destinies of that country and
come forward with seine remedial measures.—(Hear.)
SADLIER said, he could not think of occupying
one moment of the valuable time of the House iu de-
liberating on the imperative necessity and importance 01
maintaining the constitutional and rational liberties of
the Irish people wholly unimpaired, did he not feel
strongly on the subject. He acknowledged that
circumstances had arisen, and circnmstances might
probably arise, to justify those who might be
jeabus in maintaining those constitutional liberties in
all their integrity, in appealing to this House for a par-
tia. and temporary suspension of the privileges and
liberties; of his fellow-countrymen. But he did
chick there had been no case whatever made
out by her Majesty's Ministers—(Hear, hear)—to justify
then in appealing to this House at this moment for a
furtler extension of the system now in operation in this
canary. He had only to say that, when in 1847, a
flag-ant and open system of assassination disturbed and
degraded certain districts of Ireland, when the

Government felt it to be their duty to ap-
peal to this House for extraordinary powers to aid
in the repression of agrarian crime in the southern dis-
tricts of Ireland, he did not hesitate to respond to that
appeal ; and when, in the last year, political excitement
had been so heightened in various districts throughout
the country, then he thought it but an act of
mercy to many young and hasty men engaged
in the rebellion at that moment, that restrictions
should be imposed upon them calculated to preserve
their honour and their lives. When he thought it his
duty to give his support to the proposition of the Go-
vernment, he did so on plain and palpable grounds. He did
say the absence of political excitement was essential to the
industrial progression and social improvement of Ireland;
and he felt that amid the political disturbance and social
disruption in those rural districts of Ireland, no party suf-
fered so much as the poor labouring classes of that country
—( Hear, hear)—and he felt, that every man, practi-
cally acquainted with the condition and circumstances
of certain districts in Ireland, was bound to give his un-
qualified support to the measure of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. But he believed in no country, or at no time,
was such a matter brought forward as that which had
now been placed before the House. If there
were facts notoriously public in Ireland to justify
the introduction of this Bill, he should have no hesitation
in giving it at once his unqualified support. If he could
trace anything to justify the Home Secretary in holding
up to the House and to the country any portion of her
Majesty's subjects in Ireland as disloyal or dis-
affected, he should have no hesitation in giving
his support to that. Bill. Jf he had any grounds to jus
tity him in apprehending that any considerable portion
of the Irish people were at this moment disloyal
or disaffected, he should have no hesitation in
giving his unqualified support to this measure, but while
he had no small opportunities of judging of
the feelings of the people in the southern districts of
Ireland, he was bound to say, from his extensive acquaint-
ance with the feelings of the poorer classes in
the proclaimed districts of Ireland, he felt
it his duty emphatically to declare that
those poor people were unalterably attached
to the institutions of this country, and that they were
devoted and loyal to the person and the crown of the
Queen—(Hear, hear)—and if there were any discontent
and disaffection among the people of Ireland. that dis-
content and disaffection arose from the policy of the
existing Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) He complained of the
grounds on which the present Bill was introduced. It
seemed to him that the letter of the Lord-Lieutenant had
been read for the purpose of persuading the House to
a continuance ok the coercive legislation in
Ireland, as calculated to stimulate the industry and to
develop the resources of that country. He had
already said he acknowledged that public tranquillity
and social order were essential to the progress of in-
dustry in Ireland; but it would be idle and puerile to
contend that the existence of social order alone
ever could secure to the people of Ireland
the blessings and consequences:of industrial occupations.
(Hear, hear.) He averred that if they desired to
scare capital from Ireland—(Hear, hear)—if they de-
sired to hunt from the country the independent and in-
dustrious portion of its population, they would continue
that miserable system of coercion—(Heat, hear)—that
miserable make-shift, they would continue to suspend
the constitution of that country, and to place the people
at the mercy of a political dictator.—(Hear, hear.)
He understood that the measure was introduced as a
social and not as a political measure, and it was de-
decidedly understood also that it should in no way in-
terfere with the question of the repeal of the union.
He had been led to believe that under the suspension of
the Habeas Corpus Act only 120 individuals were
imprisoned, and he believed that only 106
persons were retained in prison under the
same authority. He might indeed cite the expressions
of the Ministry themselves as a reason for opposing the
present proposition. As an evidence of the state of
feeling among the Irish people, he might state that
within the last few months, at a time of the greatest
political excitement, it had been his duty at a public
dinner, in one of the proclaimed districts, to give as a
toast her Majesty's health, and he could say—as
it was indeed his bounden duty—to the House that
nowhere could that sentiment have been received more in
accordance with the feelings of any loyal subject, or
even as her Majesty herself might have desireJ. He
had also :in his capacity of chairman, been desirous of
giving the health of Lord Clarendon, but he found from
the temper of those present that there would be an in-
superable difficulty in separating a private and deserved
compliment to that respected nobleman from a general
approval of the conduct and policy of her Majesty's Mi-
nisters, and desirous as he was of paying that compliment
he was compelled, in compliance with the temper
of the people, to give up his design. They could not
forget the manner in which when, in opposition, her
Majesty's Ministers had, with so much excitement, en-
forced the claims of the Irish people, and
the energy and power with which they had
always entered into any discussion that was
connected with Irish subjects. He could not
forget the effect with which they had spoken of the ex-
pense of retaining 25,000 men for the defence
of Ireland, in days now long since gone by.
He thought the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment had neglected many opportunities since his return
to office of doing good to Ireland. He ought long ago
to have availed himself of the singular opportunity of
all parties having but one feeling upon the subject
of Ireland, and being willing to give him support
in the introduction of a comprehensive scheme calcu-
lated to remove the miseries and redress the griev-
ances of the people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
1 The Noble Lord took occasion, during the last
session, to protect and defend the policy of
Government ; and in speaking of the distribution of
millions of the public money in Ireland, he threw the
responsibility and blame with regard to the expen-
diture of the funds upon the gentry, and rate-
payers of Ireland. He said they had within them-
selves the power of diverting into more productive
channels the immense fund that was voted for the
relief of the Irish distress, but the- Noble Lord
omitted to inform the House that no discre-
tion was vested in the people of Ireland with
regard to the appropriation of the fund. He
forgot to inform the House the fund was
entirely and absolutely at the control of the
Government. The conduct of Government with refer-
ence to the condition of the labouring classes of Ireland
was calculated to create in that country a feeling of
discontent and dissatisfaction, and a want of
confidence in the resources and resuscitating fertility of
the land—a feeling which would take a long time to
remove. Could anything be more disheartening to
the enterprising and industrious man in Ireland than
the exhibition which three Members of the Cabinet had
presented to the House during the present
week ?—(Hear.) Essaying to discuss subjects which
must always be of vital importance to every interest in
Ireland, what had been their course? The Home Secre-
tary for Ireland assured them the question of
the area of taxation in connexion with the
Irish poor-law was one of such vital consequence,
and involved so much in difficulties, that it
was impossible to legislate upon the subject,
and the matter must be referred to a
Committee, but during the same week he informed the
House that under the existing law the Poor-law Com-
missioners had the power of treating that difficult ques-
tion and adjudicating upon it. And in the same week
he told the House that the vital question was to form no
portion of the investigation of the Committee about to
be appointed. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had occasion to advert
to the appalling destitution of certain districts in
Ireland, and he furnished them with statistics
of the misery and sufferings of the people
with which they had all been previously
too familiar, but what was his surprise when the Right
Hon. Gentleman in the same breath confessed that he
bad come to no conclusion on the subject, nor had he
any proposition or remedy to propound with the view of
mitigating the evil.—(Hear, hear.)
CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.

A messenger from the Lords appeared at the table and
stated that their Lordships were desirous of having a
conference with the Commons on the subject of en-
grossing Bills. Members were accordingly selected to
conduct the Conference, and retired to enter upon their
duties.

After a short absence the conference returned, and
Sir GEORGE GREY reported to the House that the
conference from the House of Lords had agreed with
the Commons with respect to the alterations proposed.
Mr. SADLIER resumed his address. He was direct-
ing attention to the course pursued by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer during the present week, with a view of
showing what were the views of the Government towards
Ireland, and he had clearly shown the House that there
were no elements of union between the members of her
Majesty's Government on matters of vital interest to the
people of Ireland.—(Hear. hear.) The family party of
which the Government was composed placed themselves,
by their respective statements to the House, in the posi-
tion in which the late Chief Baron (O'Grady) of Ireland
once found himself. The Chief Baron was associated in
the consideration of a complex question with Baron Fos-
ter and Baron M'Clelland, and after having heard each
of them deliver his judgment, he briefly declared that
he was compelled to agree with his brother M'Clelland
for the reasons given by his brother Foster—(Laughter)
—and the Noble Lord was prepared to give his reasons
on the affairs of the people of Ireland, for the same
reasons assigned by his Right Honourable relative the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(A laugh.) There was
a sad want of knowledge displayed by her Majesty's
Ministers in the Legislature on the affairs of Ireland,
and of the amount of destitution which the people of
that country were suffering under; and it was because
the people of Ireland found that there was nothing
in the promises of the Government that they had no
confidence in those promises. It was because they saw
no step taken by the Government to draw out their in-
dustrial resources and their manufacturing power, that
they could not: have any confidence in them; and, he
must say, ;if the Noble Lord were to come down to the
House to-morrow, and declare that he had some com-
prehensive scheme for the alleviation of the burdens of
the people of Ireland, and for the removal of her griev-
ances, that he, for one, would not place confidence in
him. He saw neither union nor habits of business in
the members of the Cabinet, and he did not see that they
brought any information before the House of a satis-
factory nature on Irish questions. He asked, was it pos-
sible that any reasonable or sensible man, accustomed to
business, could place confidence in her Majesty Govern-
ment in relation to the Irish Bills brought into that
House by them? When they found the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary o: State for Ireland holding the
various offices of Secretary for Ireland, his position as a
Member of Parliament, and his office of a Poor-law
Commissioner for Ireland, how, he would ask, could it bo
expected that he could discharge in that House the
various duties appertaining to those offices? He asked,
was it fair that the time of the Right Hon. Baronet
should be taken up by the duties of a Poor-law Commis-
sioner_ for Ireland? Either, he submitted, the Right

Hon. Baronet should retire from the one situation or the
other; and he should say the sooner they male their ar-
rangements for the introduction into that House of an
Irish law officer of the Crowe the better, for if they failed
to make such arrangements they would have a repetition
of that bungling which was so remarkable on Irish affairs
last session. He believed this measure, and the propo-
sition of advancing 50,0001. to Ireland, to be brought
forward to keep the present Government in power. The
people of Ireland were dissatisfied and discontented, be-
cause 3,000,000 of them was reduced to a state of posi-
tive pauperism—because no measures of real reiief were
brought forward for their advantage, and bee`anse an
increased quantity of land was being placed tinter the
mismanagement of the Court of Chancery. But although
they were dissatisfied on these and other grounds, they
were yet not liable to be affected by the inflammatory
views of dangerous men, and therefore the measure be-
fore the House was not that which that House ought
to be legislating upon, but one calculated to improve
the social condition of the country. The Honourable
Gentleman then referred to the way in which the college
and other ecclesiastical estates in Ireland were mis-
managed, and said that if the House looked at the papers
relating to the state of the poor in Ireland, they would
find that a large mass of the pauper poor in Ireland was
identified with the ecclesiastical property in that country.
They were constantly talking about Irishmen not placing
reliance on themselves. This might be true, that Itish-
men exhibited a want of self-reliance on themselves, cut
the acts of that }liaise were calculate i to increase that
want of self-reliance. He was aware that out of the
13,000,000/. of property in Ireland, 5,000,0001. must
change hands; and this being so, it was their duty to
take the crag? of Ireland into their consideration, and es-
pecially the legal rights of the landlords and tenants in
that country, with a view to their imp.ovealvtit It was
said that there was clamour in Ireland. Could it be
otherwise so long as the people were suffering, and in a
state of misery unknown to any other people of any na-
tion in the world? He conclud d by moving that this
Bill be read a s"cond time that day ,ix months.
Mr. S. CRAWFORI) seconded the motion.

Mr. H. W. BARRON said there was no tendency in
Ireland to political excitement. He kilevv, from his own
personal knowledge that the Young Ireland party re-
gretted the course which they had taken, and he therefore
cautioned the Government against exciting the public
mind by continuing the Irish Coercion Act in existence.
It was said that this Act had put down insurrection in
Ireland, and that, therefore, it should be continued in
force now that there was no insurrection there. This
might be good logic in Algeria, but it never could be
endured in this country. What was wanted in Irelaud
was employment, and it was the duty of the Govern-
ment to adopt means by which this employment could
be obtained. They might talk of the idleness of the
Celts, but, from his experience, he could say that no
people in the world were more ready to work for a
fair day's wages; indeed, in his neighbourhood, they
always gave full value for the wages they re-
ceived. It was constantly stated in a leading journal,
even to that very day, that the pauperism of the Irish
,was owing to the misconduct and mismanagement of the
landlords. He denied that such was the case. It was
put forward in utter ignorance of the facts. They should
not allow such statements to influence them, which were
made by " penny-a-liners," who must find something to
write about. It was not by coercion Bills, but by reme-
dial measures, that they could expect to make Ireland
tranquil and prosperous.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he wished to assign briefly
the reasons which would influence his vote upon this
motion. His main objection to the measure was,
that he was unwilling to entrust parties of diffe-
rent politics from those of the present Government
with such extended powers as this Bill would confer,
and which might fall into less trustworthy hands it
there was a change of Government. He objected to
it because it had not been made out that there was
a renewal of disturbances, for he heard of no dis-
turbances whatever but the miserable affair at Clon-
mel. It had also been assigned as a reason in its sup-
port, that the people had not surrendered their arms.
The reasons assigned for proposing this Bill was not
satisfactory. It was further said that this Bill was ne-
cessary to repress agitation. Now, he would ask, was
it possible for any man to carry on a systematic agita-
tion, such as had been conducted by a late Hon. Gentle-
man. He felt assured that such an agitation could not
be renewed. The reasons brought forward in support
of the Bill were insufficient, and he felt, therefore, bound
to oppose it. They ought to have brought torward reme-
dial measures; above all they should adjust the relation
between landlord and tenant in that country, without
which they could never expect to see Ireland in a satis-
factory state. He opposed the Bill because remedial
measures were not proposed, because the Government
had not redeemed its pledges.
Colonel THOMPSON said he would vote for the
second reading of the Bill, in the hope of having an op-
portunity of voting for an abridgement of its duration.

Mr. OSBORNE- said he could not agree with those
who stated that the late insurrection was a mock rebel-
lion. He, on the contrary, believed that if the rebels had
had one success, that country would have been plunged
in blood, and perhaps in revolution.—(Hear.) He thought
the praises bestowed on Lord Clarendon were greatly
exaggerated. He saw no reason fur giving his c,,ntidence
to the present Lord-Lieutenant. The Government of
Ireland was not upheld by the force of public opinion,
but by the force of her Majesty's troops. The course
pursued by the Government was most unsatisfactory.
One night they came down to the House, asking for a
grant of fifty thousand pounds for twenty-one unions in
the west of Ireland, and the next night ask for a
renewal of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act. Much had been expected from the Devon
Commission, and yet the only measure founded
on the recommendations of that Commission adopted
by the Government, was that of fixing the Irish
constabulary on the Consolidated Fund. What had
become of the Church question, which heretofore had
been declared to be the root of the evils of the
country ? What, in fine, had become of all the mea-
sures which were contemplated for the benefit of Ireland
on the present Ministry coming into power ? He would
ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, why
he had turned out the last Administration which were
composed of honest men who were fairly carrying out
their principles ? Were Members on that side of the
House called upon to vote upon that occasion, for no
other purpose than to put the Mintos, the Elliotts, and
the Russells in office. He wished to know what the
Government meant to do at the end of six months,
when the Bill was to expire. He was not satisfied with
measures of coercion and votes of money as a system of
governing Ireland, and should therefore vote against
the Bill.

Mr. REYNOLDS said not having been present when
the Bill was first brought forward he was now anxious to
offer a few observations upon the motion. When the Bill
was introduced last session he had some difficulty in
voting against it, but he had none now, for he heard no
reasons assigned in its support which satisfied him of its
necessity. Reference had been made to the letter of the
Lord-Lieutenant and harsh expressions used towards it
to which be could not agree. There was nothing very
wrong in Lord Clarendon writing a letter to the Prime
Minister, and recommending a certain course to be pur-
sued, but it would be wrong in that House to take his
advice. Much had been said in censure of the Lord
Lieutenant, but, for his own part, he admired his private
and public life, and could not help recollecting, with
feelings of gratitude, his refusal to turn the Orangemen
of Ireland against the Catholics. He (Mr. Reynolds)
deeply regretted, however, that he had written the
letter alluded to, because, in his mind, it was totally
unnecessary, and would raise a feeling of deep
indignation against the Irish Government which it would
be impossible to suppress. If it was intended to put
down the repeal agitation it would fail—and as to other
grievances, did the House believe 7,000,000 of Catholics
would permit the existence of an Established Church
which draws from them an income of 1,000,0001. a year
to provide for the necessities of 700,000 members of that
Church? For his (Mr. Reynold's) part, he should never
be content while it exists, nor did he look upon himself
as an emancipated Irishman or Roman Catholic, while
that monster grievance was permitted to continue. In his
opinion, a man's clergyman ought to be paid by him, as
he would his doctor or tailor. He believed, in addition,
that all the evils of Ireland were mainly owing to the
base conduct of Irish landlords, and but for whom, the
calamities under which she now laboured would not be
in existence. He denounced the present measure as an
insult, inasmuch as when the country was quiet, a mea-
sure was brought forward for the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act.
Mr. THELAWNY gave every credit to the Govern-
ment for preserving the peace of Ireland, but under al'
the circumstances, he certainly should vote against the
grant about to be proposed, and support the passing of
the measure then before the House. For his own part
he attributed almost the whole of the evils of Ireland to
a continuous increase of the population—CA laugh)—
without making any provision for them. He denounced
the conduct of the Irish Members in coming down to
that House night after night threatening the Government
and the House, and preventing the transaction of public
business, and clamouring for grants of money for the
Irish people. _ _

Viscount BERNARD could not refrain from paying
the highest tribute of his admiration to the conduct of
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, for his zeal and promp-
titude in putting down the insurrection last July. He,
as foreman of the grand jury of the county Cork, and
cognizant of the state of the country at that
period, should say, the rebellion then intended was
not a " mock insurrection," as it had been termed.
It it were put down, and if peace were restored, why
were not the arms given up ? Why was not public
confidence restored? It was not such mad attempts as
that made at Ballingary, in August last, they had to fear
—but cowardly attempts at assassination; and for his
own part he entirely coincided with the Lord-Lieutenant
of Ireland in his letter, when he said that agitation was
the bane of the country. He thanked the Government
for their prompt measures in putting down disaffection,
and they might rest assured of his support in carrying
out such measures on every occasion.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE deprecated the reasons given by
the Members who supported the measure for the suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus Act. One Honourable Mem-
ber said it ought to be passed because the population
was too much increased in Ireland; and the Noble Lord
the Member for Bandon, gave as a reason why he sup-
ported it—that the Grand Jury of the county of Cork, of
which he was foreman, were in a state of nervous excite-
ment last summer. He (Mr. E. B. Roche) deeply regretted
the course pursued in that House by the free-trade Mern•
bers. When those measures, of which they were the
advocates and promoters, were discussed in that House,
the Irish Members supported them on every occasion ;
but when the liberties of Ireland were endangered, they
took up their hats and walked out of the House. If
Ireland was to be governed by military force, the people
of England should pay for it ; but what he wished for
was, that the peace of Ireland should be kept, cot by
force, but on the eternal principles of justice. As long
as they neglected to meet the difficulties of Ireland face

to face, she would be a millstone round their necks, and
no ceereiee measures, no Bid, such as the present, would
ever reetore peace or promote her prosperity.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE observed, that his Honourable
Friend, the Memb r for the county of Cork, attempted
to argue en a great question, involving the interests of
Ireland, on what he called the quid pro quo principle.
He said that those Honourable Gentlemen who thought
it their duty—and no doubt a painful duty it was, both
to them and every other Honourable Member on that
side of the House—to support the Bill, ought not to
have done so, because as he and his Friends voted for
free-trade measures, they expected them to oppose
it. That was a line of argument which he (Sir William
flernervllle) should not presume to address to his Hon.
Friend, because he knew and felt that in voting for free
trade he did what he thought was good, and so did his
Hon. Friends who fell under his censure do the same,
when they supported the present measure. He had no
doubt whatever but that they gave their votes according
to their conscience.
An Host. AEMBER—They did not vote at all.
Sir WM. SOMERVILLE—Who are they?
Mr. B. OSBORNE—The Manchester school.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE did 'not allude to the Man-
chest' r Scheel, as they were called, but to those two
hundred and odd Members who supported the Govern-
ment on the present occasion. His lion. Friend the
Member for Dublin laid particular stress on certain ex-
pressions in the letter of the Lord-Lieutenant, anti
argued that those expressions intimated an intention of
u.ing the pew&•rs about to be entrusted to him to put ti
stop to the Repeal agitation. mat, however, was
entirely a mistake. bid any man suppose that the
L ird-Lieutehant would, in the present state of Ire-
lan./, or itaice:i at any titn,, attempt to put a stop to agi-
tation peacefully carried on? Certainly that was not his
intention. His object wa- to put an end to that species
of agitation ehich had treasonable objects in view, and
carried them out. in a treasonable manner.—(Loud, cries
of Hear, hear.") His Hun. Friend the Member for
Limerici,, was connected with a peaceful agitation Wr
many years, without any detriment or injury to the
public peace; and most assuredly it was not against such
agitation those extraordinary powers were asked for, or
would be put into execution. The object of the Lord-
Lieutenant was to obtain a vote of confidence by that
douse—to preserve the peace of Ireland. And, for his
own part, he could assure lion. Members that it was an
act of humanity to pass such a measure, in order to pat
a stop to proceedings of the most injurious description to
the weltare of the people.— (Hear.) There never was
Lord Lieutenant in Ireland who had so much the confi-
dence of all parties—(Hear, hear, and Oh, oh)—and
every one who loved the liberties of his country would
be pained by voting for this measure; but he, in hls con-
science, believed it to be absolutely necessary.—(He.'sr•)
Lora CLAUDE HAMILTON said he thought that
some good grounds should be stated to justify so severe
and stringent a measure. It bad been said that this should
be looked upon as a vote of confidence in Lord Claren-
dun; but although that mighebe a good ground, he pre-
ferred to look at the merits. In the general admiration
of Lore Clarendon's character and administration be
most cordially joined. He had not been sparing day and
night in physical and intellectual labour, under circum-
stances of the greatest danger and difficulty, and he,be-
keyed that it was to the providential selection of that
Noble Lord under Heaven that the peace of the country
had been preserved.—(Hear, hear.) If his vote in
favour of that measure should be regarded as a vote of
confidence in Lord Clarendon, he had no objection that
it should be looked upon in that light, although he gave
his vote on the merits of the question. But in justice to
the people of Ireland, he could not help saying
that they had been taught and drilled into
the injurious agitations, which they carried opt
very much by the suggestions and comments of that
party who so loudly blamed the coercive Acts of the
Right lion. Baronet lately in power, during his ad-
ministration. No sooner, however, had they succeeded
than they applied still more stringent measures for its
suppression. They come down to that House, not
merely for an Arms Bill, but for the power to proclaim
whole counties. He hoped that party would now feel
some remorse. He believed that Lord Clarendon had
appreciated the quiet loyalty of the North. To him it
was a painful necessity to vote in favour of this Bill, but
he did hope that it would be the last time he would be
called upon to give a vote so exceptionable and so liable
to abuse.

Mr. JOHN 0 CONNELL said, that there was one
speech (Mr. Trelawny's) which was couched in the lan-
guage of a bully of the stews, which, as it had been
couched in such language, he would pass by with the
contempt which it must give rise to. The Right Hon-
Baronet's speech (Sir W. Somerville)—at least many
parts of it—gave him great pleasure. He alluded es-
pecially to his observation, that the Lord-Lieutenant
would not presume to interfere with any peaceful and
constitutional agitation. It was not intended to sup-
press public opinion. The agitation, he said, to which
this Bill was directed, was a treasonable agitation
for treasonable objects. He would, in consequence, give
a far less vexatious and violent opposition, although
equally determined. He gave notice, that he would
move that it be an instruction to the Committee to intro-
duce a clause or clauses into the Bill to secure the right
of the subject to agitate, and to meet, and petition for the
repeal of any existing law. A clause might easily be
framed iu that spirit. He had intended to read various
documents relative to the association for the repeal of
the union, of whose committee he was a member, to
prove that the objects it sought to carry out were legiti-
mate ; but the pacific observations of the Right Hon.
Baronet had rendered that unnecessary. He would
merely read the titles of those documents. The Hon.
Member hero read the headings of some repeal papers,
and said that they showed that the agitation carried on
by the Repeal Association was peaceful, legal, and con-
stitutional. The next document would carry the House
to the stormy period of last year, when in March last
the Association issued an address declaring their
allegiance to the Queen, and their obedience
to the laws. The next document was a reply of
the committee refusing the use of Conciliation Hall for
the purpose of voting an address to the people of France-
The next document was an address to the people of
Ireland, cautioning the people against the wild and dan-
gerous doctrines which were promulgated abroad. The
Hon. and Learned Member further referred to docu-
ments recording the efforts the Association had made
inisupport of order, and their refusal to coalesce with
the parties who had unfortunately brought themselves
within the operation of the law. After again referring
to the declaration made by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
Wm. Somerville), he said he placed the most implicit
faith in that declaration, because be knew the high per•
sonal honour of that Right Hen. Baronet, and the high
position which he occupied in the Government of Ire-
land. He would not, therefore, farther refer to that
matter, but should for a few moments address himself to
some other considerations connected with the present
measure. After alluding to the proposed grant of
50,0001., and the opposition which he regretted was made
to it on the part of the free-traders, he would say that
when certain Members opposed that grant on the ground
as they alleged, of principle, he would now call upon
those M, tubers to act upon principle with reference to this
measure, and vote against it. Those who were opposed to
this Bill resisted it not only in the interests of Ireland,
but in the interests of England also; for they could not
tell what ill consequences would result from such legis'
lation. He would, theretore, implore Ministers to pause
in the course they were pursuing. They had yet six
months of the session before them, and, if necessary, 5
day would suffice to pass such a Bill as the one now pro
posed into law. They should try a conciliatory course
towards the people of Ireland. No people were more
alive to kind treatment, and he implored Miaisters not to
set so unfortunate an example by the passing of such
a law.

Mr. HUME said, if he was anxious to address the
House after the speech of the Hon. Member for Cork
(Mr. Riche), he was much more anxious to address it
after the speech of the Honourable Member for
Limerick (Mr. John O'Connell). He repudiated the
tack which had been made by the Hon. Member who just
sat down upon the free-trade party, and called attention
to the fact, that the Hon. 11.. L tuber himself had expressed
himself satisfied with the present measure, Decease it
had been stated that its provisions could not apply
to the association with which be was connected in
Dublin.—(Cries of " No, no," from Mr. John O'Con-
nell) Why, the Hon. Member said he was so far con-
teat with the explanation of the Hon. Baronet (Sir W.
Somerville), that he would not trouble the House with
the reading of the document he had brought with hiT,
for that purpose.—(Hear, hear, and cries of ''No, no,"
from Mr. John O'Connell). The Hon. Member hod
certainly afterwards said, that, nr.twithstanding the ex'
ceptien which had been made, he was still opposed t°
the Bill. Now he (Mr. Hume) had voted in favour of
the Bill last session, and he voted for it on the ground
that Ministers would have time to propose conciliator,'
measures, and he would vote f,r the measure now on
the ground that as peace was at present existing, Mi"
nisters could not continue to occupy their present seats
without bringing in those measures which were necer
sary, and which the condition of Ireland needed.l
(Hear, hear.) He had heard it complained that until
the disturbances ceased in Irelaed it could not be 0"
pected that satisfactory measures would be introduced'
Let the Hon. Member and those who acted with him
boldly and fairly set about inquiring what Ireland red-
quired.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hume) had again arid
again stated his opinions. He had again tan,..
again declared that Ireland ought to be governed by the
same laws and treated in every respect the same as Pig:,
land. The Government, he must say, seemed to shrink
from bringing in the measures that was necessarY.".
(Hear, hear.) When the present Bill was, however'
passed for six months longer, the Ministers would have
time given to them to prepare measures that would pre;
vent the necessity of continually suspending the consti"
tution in that country. There was no supporter of the
free-trade movement more alive than he was himself
the necessity of proper remedial measures being brought
in for Ireland, and he would give his support to the pre"
sent Bill, in the belief that no Minister would hesitate
to take that step which was imperatively called for reci
rnedying the evils under which Ireland laboure_
Upon such grounds only could the present wen"
sure be demanded. But he would ask, if gentlein„eor
,
meant to commence their old trade of agitation,
long would it be before they would have disturbances,_er
Ireland?—(Hear, hear.) lie asked the Hon. Meri".l3o
(Mr. J. O'Connell) to point out what he would do at
present moment if he were Minister? No dot.d..)l._:j.
peal would be triumphant.—(" Hear, hear," from ar_.,o,
O'Connell.) But mould that restore peace and pr°!!',la
rity to Ireland?—(Mr. J. O'Connell—l wish you
.w_'-',0140
try it.) He (Mr. Hume) supported the Bill now Densilot
the House in order that her Majesty's Goyerlis for
might have peace, and leisure to prepare measure
the future welfare of that country.—(Hear, hear.)
tbst
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL, in explanation, said_ the
what he stated was that he was satisfied, so far
Wzi"
explanation of the Right Hon. Baronet 'Sir
that he
Somerville, went. It was to that extent only
had expressed his satisfaction.