The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-28 00:00:00

REFORM BILL.

The House then went into Committee on the Reform
Bill, Mr. BraNAL in the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN read the second clause of the Bill, as
follows ;—" And be it enacted, that each of the boroughs
enumerated in schedule B, to this Act annexed, shall, after
the end of this present Parliament, return one Member,
and no more, to serve in Parliament."

Sir R. PEEL said that in this clause the words " re-
turn one Member" were printed. It was, however, com-
petent for the Committee to decide how many Members
each of the boroughs should return. He therefore re-
garded those words as only expressing the meaning of Ali-
nisters, but for all other purposes he had a right to consi-
der them as blank. It was not his intention to enter into
a debate on the case of each borough, but his object was
to raise a preliminary discussion which should decide the
Case of every borough mentioned in schedule B ; and for
that purpose he proposed to move, that the word " two"
be substituted for the word " one." If the House affirmed
his proposition, then each of the boroughs would return
two Members ; and if, on the other hand, the House de-
cided that the word " one" stand part of the clause, then
he would abstain from raising the question again, in the
case of each individual borough. He thought, therefore,
that the course he proposed to follow would tend to save
the time of the House ; and he entreated the calm, impar-
tial, and disinterested attention of all parties._( Hear.) He
had hopes, from the honourable conduct which 'Ministers
had pursued with respect to the borough of Saltash, that
if he could produce valid reasons why the boroughs
enumerated in schedule 13 should retain two Members,
tl o e reasons would be permitted to prevail. If their
first view of the subject should prove to be erroneous, no-
thing could be so absurd as to maintain it right or wrong,
and not yield to fair argument.—(Hear, hear.) The
firmest supporter of the principle of the Bill, if convinced
by the reasons he should adduce, might freely give his
vote for allowing these boroughs to return two Members,
Nothing was contained in the preamble of the Bill which
made the disfranchisement of the boroughs enumerated in
schedule B. a necessary measure. The preamble decla!vtl

the expedieucy of disfranchising the boroughs in schedule
A, but not those in schedule B. The boroughs in sche-
dule B. had nothing to do with the principle of disfran-
chising nomination boroughs ; because if they were nomi-
nation boroughs, they ought, according ro the principle of
the Bill, to be entirely disfranchised.—(Hear, hear.) tf
the boroughs in schedule I 3 were to be retained) it was bet-
ter that they should have two Members than one. If a
new representative system were to tee framed, he would ra-
ther have one hundred boroughs returning two Members
each, than two hundred returning only one Member each,
He thought that the former plan was best calculated to
preserve local tranquillity, by allowing each party to netel
one Member. He now entreated lion. Members tvl o
were friendly to the principle of the Bin cot to regard the
pletlh;es which they might have given, but to attend to what
he was about to state, and to consider well whether it Was
-worthy of attention. He would for the sake 4 argument
assume, that the decision to which the Committee came
last night would be cnnfirmel by the deliberate vote of the
House, and that 156 boroughs, and 111 Members, teem,
for the future, to be utterly abolished, and struck out of
the representative syeteen of England. In order to show
in what manner this act of disfranchisement would operate
he would divide England into two districts, the character
of each of which was essentially different from the other.
He held in his hand a small map which had been lately
published, entitled " A Map, showing the places in Eng-
land and Wales sending Members to Parliament heretofore,
with the alterations proposed to be made by the Bill for
amending the representation." In this map he would
draw a line, not exactly across the centre of the country,
but from the indenture made in the coast by the Severn
to the indenture made on the opposite cnast by the Wash.
This line would leave Lincolnshire: to the north, and the
county of Norfolk to the south. A line drawn froth this
point to Bristol would effect the division to which be
wished to direct the attention of the House. Title line was
not a fanciful one, hut one which divided with tolerable
accuracy the agricultural from the manufacturing districts.
On the north of this line were situated the great coal fields
of England, with all the manufactures which depended
on them- Taking this line for his guide, he would at-
tempt to prove that the Bill gave an immense prepon-
derance to the northern or manefecturing district, and
greatly and unduly lessened the weight and distinc-
tion of the southern district, which comprised the chief
agricultural counties of England. If he should succeed in
doing this, he trusted that the House would see the policy
of enacting that the boroughs in schedule B should be al-
lowed to ecnd two Members instead of one, as a counter-
poise to the undue weight which the Bill proposed to give
to the northern district. Without indulging in loose de-
clamations, he would proceed to establish by proofs which
he thought no one could call in question his allegation. In
the northern division which was effected by the line he had
laid dowu, the following seventeen counties would be
found ; namely, Northumberland, Cumberland, Durham,
Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cheshire, Derbyshire, Nottingham-
shire, Leicestershire, Staffordshire, Shropshire, Worces-
tershire, Warwickshire, Herefordshire, Westmoreland, Lin-
colnshire, and Rutland. The four last might be considered
agricultural counties, but the first thirteen were the chief
teats of English manufactures. To the south of the line
were the agricultural counties—namely, Hertfordshire,
Norfolk,'Suffolk, Cambrit'leshire, Buckinghamshire, North-
amptonshire, Huntingdonshire, E-sex, Bedfordshire, Glen-
cesterehire, Oxfordshire, Somersetehire, Wiltshire, Berk..
shire, Middlesex, Surrey, Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, De-
vonshire, Cornwall, and Dorsetshire. He would now show
bow the Bill affected the two great divisions of the country
which he had described to the House. Schedule A com-
prised fifty-six boroughs, returning 111 Members. How
were these boroughs situated with respect to the districts
north and south of the line ? The district north of the line
lost only five boroughs, out of the fifty-six.—(Hear.)
The district to the south of the line lost fifty-one. The
district to the north of the line lost ten Members, and the
district to the south lost 101.—( Hear, hear.) So much for
schedule A. He now came to schedule B, in which 41
boroughs were included. At the commencement of the
discussion last night, this schedule contained only 40
boroughs, but after the decision of the Committee with
respect to Saltash, he might fairly assume that it now
comprised 41 boroughs. Out of these 41 boroughs eight
were to the north of the line, and 33 to the south.—
(Hear, hear.) By the combined operation of schedules
A and B, the manufacturing district lost 18 Members,
and the agricultural district lost 134.—(Hear.) He was
aware that the reply which he should receive on this
point, and of which, perhaps, the Noble Lord was then
busy taking a note, was, that though these boroughs were
situated in the agricultural division of the kingdom, they
did not return Members in the agricultural interest, but,
according to his (Sir Robert Peel's) principle, were the
means by which men connected with the monied interest
and with the colonies obtained admission to the House,
and that therefore he should not speak of their disfran-
chisement as a positive loss to the agricultural district. He
did not deny that there was considerable weight in this
argument; but then it by no means applied to the po-
sition which he had taken up on the present occasion,
which was, that the 41 boroughs in schedule 13, with
the new constituency which it was proposed to give them,
and which would destroy their character as nomination
boroughs sbould be allowed to return two Members each.
He had shown the effect of the destructive clauses of the
Bill; he would now refer to the constructive clauses.
Here he found no comp, nsatien for the loss which the
destructive clauses occasioned to the agricultural division.
Schedule C contained twelve new boroughs, each of which
was to return two Members. Every one of these new
boroughs, with the exception of the metropolitan district
and of the town of Dcvonport, was in the northern divi-
sion.—(Hear.) It was clear that the return of Members
for the metropolitan district would be an injury instead of
an advantage to the agricultural interest. 'I he Bill created
twenty-six new boroughs with one Member each, and of
these twenty-four were to the north of the line, and two
to the south.—(Hear.) He had hoped that these two
would at least be of some advantage to the agricultural in-
terest ; but what was his disappointment when, on looking
at the clause, he found that in these instances the privilege
of representation was conferred on Cheltenham and
Brighton ? The result of his statement was, that the
southern division of the kingdom sustained a total loss of
134 .Members, whilst the northern division sustained a loss
of only eighteen. On the other hand, the southern district
gained seven Members,and the northern district thirty-three.
If the House would accede to his proposition, and give
two Members to the boroughs contained in schedule 8.,
the agricultural interest would possess its due weight in
the representative system. At all times it. was necessary
to protect the agricultural interest from the augmenting
influence of the manufacturing districts. The constitu-
ency of populous places had greater power of combining
than the scattered constituency of agricultural districts.
The influence of the Press and of cicha was much more
powerful amongst the former than amongst the latter body.
He was aware that there were anomalies in the present
system of representation, but they had existed for centu-
ries. No such excuse could be made for the anomalies
which disfigured the new system.—(Hear, hear.) He
and others had argued that the destruction of nomination
boroughs would prevent the introduction of men of talent
into the House; but he did not mean to deny that men of
talent would find their way into the House under the new
system. On the contrary, he thought it would bring into
the House men of tremendously active talent, and he
feared they would feel too strong a desire to recommend
themselves to their constituents to allow theta to interpose
their reason between the deliberations of Parliament and,
he would not say popular clamour but, temporary popular
feeling.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that under the
new system of representation proposed by the Go-
vernment, men of great experience in public life, but
of retired habits (and as one of that class he might
mention Mr. Sturges Bourne), would shrink from
the election contests which the Bill would produce.—
Such were the combined considerations en which he most
earnestly entreated the House to pause, and to inquire
whether or no they might not, consistently with the prin-
ciple of the Bill, suffer those forty boroughs which were
included in schedule B to retain the right of sending two
Members to Parliament. But, above all things, he would
entreat and implore of the House not to innovate and de-
stroy further than was absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.)
He besought gentlemen not to be too active in the work of
destruction.—(flear, hear.) The very extensive destruc-
tion which was effected last night must call upon those
who were the most ardent in the cause of Reform, to pause
and ask themselves seriously, whether the system of the
representation of this country was really so bad, was re-
ally so defective, as to call for a farther and a more sweep-
ing destruction ?—(Hear.) He had thus spoken in defence
of his long-established opinion ; and in support of the
soundness of that opinion he was happy he had it in his
power to cite a living witness. He alluded to the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Macintosh, we believe);
and, without meaning to claim his vote, or to taunthirn with
inconsistency—not insinuating or asserting that the Right
Hon. Gentleman might not have seen reason to change his
opinion, if changed it bad been—be would. plaim upon re-
cord, in that House, the eloquent truths which that Right
Hun. Gentleman had sent forth. When the Right Hon.
Gentleman was writing rather on the philosophy than on
the facts of history, he observed, that " in former
a reci itate de-
times, when men were either clraimwinereg
insipstingp on their
parture from ancient form,
to.
rigid administration, their object was always effected

with refusence to a wide survey of t..ociety. A constitution
could not he framed all at once, according to a given mo-
del ; but all its forms and powers must grow up from time
and circumstances. That bundle of usages which eras
tilts collected was made matter of respect and homage, in
all instances, before it was recognized and enforced as part
of the constitution. Government is not like a machine,
or a system that could be moulded and conducted, in all its
parts, according to a previous design, by the art and labour
of man. It ought rather to be compared with the progress
of vegetables or animals. These, by skill and care, might
be brought to the greatest perfection ; but they might be
ruined by neglect, or destroyed by Violence. By neither
could they be strengthened or improved." These were
undoubted tenths ; and if the existing form of Govern-
nicht derived strength from otcaeiottal and gradual altera-
tions—if it were not like a machine or building, which
man might conduct, but rather like a production of vege-
table or animal life, which might be improved by skill and
care, but must be injured by neglect or violence,—then he
would call on the House to he cautious in relying too much
on their own wisdom, and in distrusting too much the
wisdom of past ages, by rashly overthrowing ancient and
established usages.—(Hear, bear.) He entreated them to
ben are how they carried their efforts too far with reference
to this Bill, and to consider whether, by passing it, they
would not be sapling the foundation of •that happiness and
prosperity, which,however impel feet the Constitution might
be., they had hitherto enjoyed under it.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord ..1. RtISSELL meant to confine himself simply to
one proposition, which had been put forward by the Right
lion. Baronet,—namely, that the whole of the boroughs
in schedule B should continue to return two Members.
He was not prepared to select one as a preferable number,
—a fact which w ts clear front the means, e itself, inas-
much as the scale of this Bill, if passed, would generally
give two Members. When, however, the Right Hon.
Baronet objected to allowing these boroughs to return only
one Member each, the House would recollect, that in some
of the greatest changes which had ever taken place in the
Government of this empire—be alluded to the union with
Scotland and Ireland,—presided over anti directed as those
changes were, by individuals of great fame and celebrity
as statesmen,—it was remarkable that in the se changes,
the voters were only allowed to send one Member to serve
in Parliament. The Right Hon. Baronet too was of opi-
nion, that the conceding of only one Member to a borough
would cause the most violent contests. Experience, how-
ever, led him to arrive at a different conclusion. In the
city of Dublin, which returned two Members, there had
been snore bitter and angry election contests than had ever
taken place in the city of Limerick, which returned but
one Member. The opinion that the election of one Mem-
ber would give rise to severe contests, partook, lie con-
ceived, of an unfounded fear. He believed that, in prac-
tice and reality, those contests would be found to
prevail more often in places having the privilege
of sending two Members, than in those where
the privilege was restricted to one. The question was,
whether the parties in any given place were very nearly
balanced. Whenever that was the case, a contest was
sure to follow; because the majority would never be con-
tented unless they could send two Members to Parliament,
while the minority would struggle hard at least to send in
one. That was the fact with respect to the county of
Bedford ; tte parties there were nearly balanced ; and he
believed that there were more contests in that county,
with its two Members, than in any place in England, Scot-
land, or Ireland, sending only one Member to Parliament.
The Right Hon. Baronet then passed to another point. He
said that the House would do a great injury and injustice
by selecting many Members from places lying on one side
of a line, which be indicated, while very few were taken
from the other side of the line, the counties on the one
side being agricultural, and on the other manufacturing.
It might be answered to this, that the persons thus alluded
to were not the Members for counties, but the represen-
tatives of certain interests, who found their way through
those avenues to that House. But, said the Right Hon.
Baronet, " see how your new system will work. Amer-
sham, and the rest of the boroughs, whether subject to
nomination or not, not only reprgtented particular in-
terests, but did also, to a certain extent, repre-
sent the counties to which they belonged ; and that
source of representation would now be cut away."
But the Right Hon. Baronet ought to recollect, that
by the new system, four additional Members would
be given to Cornwall, Dorsetshire, and Wiltshire, and to
several other counties in the south and west of England.
A ; erfectly sufficient number of Members was left to
represent Cornwall, as that place would, under the Bill,
be in the possession of 12 representatives. Cornwall was
one of those counties which Ministers thought it necessary '
to despoil more than any. other, having been deprived of
30 Members ; yet the Hon. Member for Truro admitted
that it would be better represented under this Bill than it
was when it sent 42 Members to Parliament. Ministers
had been accused with having unduly and unfairly en-
riched Durham, in comparison with Cornwall. Now how
stood the fact ? Cornwall contained 257,000 inhabitants,
and Durham 205,000. The former retained 12 Mem-
bers, or including Saltash, 13 ; and the latter would send
nine Members to Parliament, being in fair and exact
proportion with the population. He did not mean to
assert that all those counties received exactly all that their
wealth or population might demand. But Ministers, in-
stead of taking the course which the Right Hon. Baronet
recommended,—that of carrying their scale more to the
south and west,—looked rather to the great population of
the northern counties. They found that Lancashire con-
tained more than a million of inhabitants, while Dorset-
shire had only a population of 140,000. Therefore Lan-
cashire was allowed 19 Members, while Dorsetshire would
send only nine, being little more, in the former instance
than two to one. He therefore contended that the
la't charge that ought to be made against Ministers
was, that they bad neglected the interests of
the southern or western counties, or that they
had overlooked the agricultural districts. Theirs
was a real plan of Parliamentary Reform. They wished
to give to those vast depots of manufacturing wealth,
which during the last thirty years had been constantly in-
creasing, that importance to which they were entitled.
The individuals connected with them were in the habit of
trading with every quarter of the world : they kept up
the relations of this country with every portion of the
globe; they were, wheresoever they went, admired for
their mechanical skill, and envied for their increasing and
secure prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) Having found their
way into every pert of the habitable world,—having for
years maintained the character and power of this country,
yet, strange to say, they had never found admittance into
that House, which should have been their proper place.—
(Hear.) They ought to have been in that House, assist-
ing in the representation of the people of England, and
legislating for a great, mighty, powerful, and commercial
country.—(Hear.) In proceeding as they had done, Mi-
nisters felt that the representation should not he a repre-
sentation of any particular el iss of men, strongly addicted
to a specific set of opinions. They thought that if they
adopted such a course, those so selected might give to the
machine of Government an impetus and a velocity not
consistent with the established state of things. Therefore
it was that they stopped their career at a particular point,
and had laid down a line beyond which they would not go.
There were forty boroughs in this schedule which would
send one Member each to Parliament, and there were
thirty others that would still return two Members. These
latter did not contain any great body of constituents,
hut• still they would send Members to Parliament
to represent certain portions of the people, veto had
as fair a right to be represented in that House as any
other body. By taking this course, he believed that they
would add to the stability of the representation, and that
they would obtain an equilibrium which was not to be
found in any other scheme of legislation which Ministers
could devise. They had left to the boroughs in this
schedule the right to send one Member each to Parlia-
ment. They bad not, in doing this, acted from partial
or personal views, but because they thought it right and
just to stop where they conceived that total disfranchise-
mint was no longer necessary. The Right Hon. B eronet
had argued that, under the new system, persons of retired
habits would not .find their way into that House. Now
really a person must be of very retired habits indeed, if
he could not summon sufficient resolution to ask for the
suffrages of electors. The Right Hon. Baronet had men-
tioned Mr. Sturges Bourne in support of his argument.
' But he could see no reason why Mr. Sturges Bourne could
not ask for the suffrages of the voters at Lymington,
Christ-church, or any other place in Hampshire, in order
that he might come into Parliament to support their in-
terests. He admitted that if such great counties as Lan-
cashire or Yorkshire were only to be represented, then
men who might be of great service in that House would
undoubtedly be excluded. But while such places existed
as those to which he had alluded, he could not imagine
that gentlemen would be unable to present themselves be-
fore a small number of electors, varying perhaps from
100 to 300. In consequence of the existence of those
small boroughs, individuals could easily find their way
into that House, at the same time that the country would
get rid of a very great grievance—he meant the nomina-
tion boroughs. The purchase of seats, and the general
system of bribery, would be done away, and Members
reoseppontarttiuvneisty .fo tfhe ovpeoerpire.e
sent in for insignificant and inconsiderable places would
1
nv
oo
tli onngg
tete have thee
e
—rin(glleaanrd.)out-
Sir R. PEEL said, the Noble Lord seemed to have mis-
understood one part of his argument. The Noble Lord

cotild sec no reason why 111 r. Sturges Bourne should aot
ask for the suffrages of the electors of Lymington. Now
what he (Sir R. Peel) said was, that these few places were
the only ones to which men of retired habits would repair
in order to effect their return to Parliament ; and there-
fore he contended that they ought to be allowed to send
two Members instead one.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the numberof Members
allowed under that clause would be fully sufficient for all
the gentlemen of retired habits.—(A laugh.)
Mr. SADLER complained, that Ministers and their
adherents were going to dispose, by wholesale, of the just
rights and privileges of all those who were connected with
these boroughs. The argument which bad been recently
made use of by the Right Hon. B worst, the more it was
examined would les found to be the more incontrovertible.
The plan adopted by his Majesty's Ministers was partial
and unjust, whether it was viewed with reference to the
agricultural and commercial classes of society, or whether
they took the distinction between town and country pipit_
lation. Look at the census to which so many references
hail been made, and they would find that the town po-
pulation did trot amount to more than 4,500,000 persons,
whereas the rural population amounted to upwards of
7,000,000.---(Hear, hear, hear.) Suppose that prop- rty
was selected as the basis of this new Constitution; how,
he demanded, did that stand ? how did it bear on the
question ? The houses, according to the last return of
property, averaged 15,000,000/. per annum, while the
land reached 30,000,000/. per annum.—(Hear.) Again,
if they looked to contribution, they would find the same
inequality. The houses in this kingdom, including mills
and manufactories, according to the last report
made to that House, paid 2,000,000/. to the poor-rates,
while the land paid no less than 6,Boo,oool.—(Hear,
hear.) What, then, was the national course for thus,
to pursue who were nowattacking the Constitution with such
zeal ? They ought to have done that which they hal ne-
glected and refused to do—they ought to have laid before
Parliament some just, clear, and intelligible plan, instead
of a scheme which was absurd and contradictory. The
gentlemen opposite called this measure an adjustment of
the system of representation ; but let the House see what
was the nature of this adjustment. It reeve, he believed,
300 Members to the towns, and about 150 to the country
population—that was to say, it adjusted the representation
in such a manner that one body should have just half as much
of it and no more, us the other holy had.—(Cheers from
the Opposition.) Such was the iniquitous career—for
iniquitous career he must call it—which the Government
was pursuing. He well recollected that in the treatise on
Government which Algernon Sydney wrote shortly before
his death, that martyr of liberty passed a high culogium
upon the state of representation in his own country, ob-
serving that, whereas in Westminster the right of voting
was in every inhabitant, in the city of London it was with
the Common Council only, in some parts of the country
in close corporations, in others in burgage tensnts, and in
other places in different persons, so that every class and in-
terest of the community found itself represented in the
House of Commons. (" Hear, hear," from the Opposi-
tion.) This Constitution, however, which had been the
admiration of real lovers of liberty, which hail constituted
the happiness of this country, and which had been a model
to the world, was now to give way for the hatey, crude,
and new-fangled system of representation which had been
invented by the gentlemen opposite.—(Cheers from the
Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) The
gentlemen opposite had called themselves lovers of liberty,
and hail been constant in urging upon the House the beauty
and the wisdom of the doctrines which gave freedom and
liberty to the people; but was their love of liberty—were
their doctrines of freedom for the people—come to this,
that none oh their fellow-subjects who could not affix,' to
spendla a-year upon a house, should be allowed to exer-
cise the dearest right of a freeman—the right of voting at
the election of representatives to serve in Parliament ? He
contended, that a measure which left out the great mass of
people as this measure did, could not have emanated from
any real friends of the people; and he would contend,
farther, that this measure drew much more largely upon
the doctrine of virtual representation than the old system
had drawn upon that doctrine. He had heard, again and
again, the authority of Cromwell's Reform cited in support
of this measure ; but the Noble Lord who had cited that
Reform bad seemed to have forgotten that the basis of that
Reform was, in the first place, property, and in the second
place, only, population. Cromwell, he believed, had given
to that House 156 Members from the towns, and 344
from the county population. These were, as well as he
recollected, the numbers, but not twine prepared for this
discussion, he could not pledge himself to having stated
them quite accurately. This plan, then, of Cromwell was
just the reverse of the plan of the Noble Lord. He fully
concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet. that places which
returned Members at all ought to return two Members.
He thought that the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet
in support of that position had been unanswerable. He
was sure, too, that all history proved that it was not good
that none but the mere numerical majority should have
any chance of success in a deliberative assembly. He re-
gretted to see that the Noble Lord oppsite was impatient
while he (Mr. Sadler) was delivering these observations.—
(Hear, and laughter.) He had, however, no disposition
to take up the time of the Howe unnecessarily. And here
allow him to say, that so far from there being any dive_
sition on his side the House to delay the Bill unnecessarily,
or to offer any factious opposition to the Bill, the fact was,
that there were very many of them who had been most
anxious to deliver their opinions upon the principle of the
Bill, but who had found no opportunity of being able to do
so.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He verily l
lieved, in his conscience,that these accusations of unnecessary
delay and factious opposition had been made for no other
purpose than to anticipate those complaints which were ex-
pected, because they might have been so justly made, of the
haste and hurry with which the Ministers had urged on the
Bill.— (Cheers from the Opposition, and " Oh, oh," and
laughter from the Ministerial benches.) This Bill had already
been many times altered, and must 3' ill be materially altered
in many of its clauses before it could be rendered accept.
able to the people or even pra ticable. Would any one
say that such a measure did not require deliberate consi-
deration ? Besides, it was a measure of injustice, and
they who were the victims of that injustice were naturally
indignant. For his own respectable constituents, allow
him to say that they were deeply sensible of the initneasur-
able wrong which was done them by this Bill.—(Cheers
from the Opposition, and laughter from the Ministerial
Benches.) A wrong it was, in flagrant violation of the
law of the land, and of the common principles of justice.
But this would come home to their own door—to the door
of those who were now busy in the infliction of the wrong.
They had told the people that rights were to be regulated
by numbers, and thus they had established a kind of poll.
tical sliding-rule. How could they in future resist the
demand of the population of a large town that the popu-
lation of a smaller town should not be placed on the same
footing with them in the return of Members to Parlia-
ment? He had not intended to take up so much of the
time of the Committee, but he must say that he thought
the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet worthy of the
most serious attention of the House. He would not detain
the Committee longer now, but he should take another
opportunity of expressing his sentiments both upon the
principles and the details of the Bill.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE bad not hitherto ad-
dressed the House, because he hail not thought it right for
an Irish Member to put himself forward upon the English
measure of Reform. What he had seen last night, how.
ever, had induced him no longer to remain silent. --He
had last night seen the borough of Saltash transferred from
schedule Ato schedule B. Now if, of those things which
he could not swear to, there win one of mote notoriety
to him than another, it was that some twenty years ago
the borough of Saltash had been sold for 12,0001. for the
life of an individual. He could not understand why such
a borough should have been saved. The Hon. Member
for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler) had that night dealt in
statistics, and upon that subject he always heard the Hon.
Member with pleasure. The Hon. Member, too,
hail told
them, that the basis of what he called the new Co nstitu-

tion ought to be population and taxation—not population
alone. Now, he begged to ask that Hun. Member who was
so anxious to save the boroughs in schedule B, what propor-
tion those boroughs bore, in population and taxation, to
the comainnity at large. According to the census of 1831,
the population which ought to return one Member, would
be 24,000, and the population which ought to return two
Members 48,000. The assessed taxes amounted to about
5,000,0001., and there were 500 English Members, so
that a population, to return one Member, ought to pay
about 10,000!. of the assessed taxes. Now he would put
it to the lion. Member for Aldborough, which of the bo-
roughs in schedule B contained either 24,000 inhabitants
or paid 10,0001. in taxes 2—(Cheers.) For his own part
he should have been inclined to have carried the scale of
population a great deal higher than the Ministers had car-
ried it, and should have been happy to have transferred
every borough in schedule B to schedule A. He, how-
ever, thanked the Ministers for the Bill such as it was,
but he begged to tell the Hon. Member for Aldborough
that his speech had demonstrated that the anomaly of the
Bill, as to property and population, consisted, not in the
Bill going too far, but in not going far enough.—(Hear-)
Mr. WASON would not trouble the Committee with
many words, but being prepared with a few facts, which
he thought were worth a great deal more than the speech
of the Hon. Member for Aldborough, he was anxious to
state those facts to the House. Of the boroughs in ache-

yule B, 39 contained together only .)0,000 inhabitants;
paid only 32,2511. of the assessed taxes, and poVasessed
only 4,918 10/. houses. They would, under this Bill,
have only 12,000 voters. and would return one-sixteenth
of the Members of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir T. FREMANTLE had not heard one ground ad-
duced for the disfranchisement of the boroughs in this
schedule. There might have been some reason for the dis-
franchisement of the boroughs in schedule A, but he could
not see on what principle it was that these boroughs should
be deprived of one of their Members. if they were nomi-
nation boroughs, they ought to be totally disfranchised as
those in schedule A had been ; and if they were nut nomi-
nation boroughs, then some reason ought to be given why
they were not to be allowed to return two Members each
as heretofore. He did not see bow the Ministers could
extricate themselves from this dilemma. As Members
need not now apprehend being sent back to their con:
stituents for mooting the question, he begged to remind
them that the subject now under discussion involved the
question of whether the numbers of the House should not
be diminished. They had List night completed the work
of getting rid of 111 Members, which number was all they
wanted to bestow upon the large towns, and other places.
Thus, then, the main object of the Bill was answered, and
why, he wou'd ask, should they go any farther? He
thought that if there were any independent Member in the
House who had not pledged himself to " the Bill, the whole
Bill, and nothing Lut the Bill," such Member might safely
divide in favour of the Right Hon. Baronet's amendment,
without infringing the principle of the Bill.
Mr. EWART contended that the principle on which
it was proposed to deprive these boroughs of returning
one Member in future to that House had been so Ire-

quently explained, that it could be of no use to explain it
again to gentlemen who still were, or pretended to be,
ignorant of it. He thought that the Ministers had acted
most wisely in tempering innovation with a certain degree
of respect fir deep-rooted prejudices and ancient usages.
The lien. Member for Iloroughbridge, and others on that
side of the House, ILA indulged in lengthy and sympathe-
tic lamentations for the voters who were to he disfran-
chised, but they had no pity for the thousands of their
fellow-subjects who, by the unjust and unequal laws of
this country, had hitherto been altogether denied the en-
joyment of the elective franchise, though they had been
made to contribute large and heavily towards the exigencies
of the State.—(Cbters.) To past injustice these gentle-
men shut their eyes, and, confining their observations to
the present moment, they did not see the prospective ho.
pruvementa which must result from the admission of the
substantial and respectable classes of the community into
the constituency of the land.—(Cheer'.) When the
lion. Altmber talked of Algernon Sydney being friendly

to the corruptions which had since his time grown up in
the representative system, the Hon. Member must suppose
that his audience knew nothing of that celebrated man.
The events el Algernon Sydney's time proved that the
people were then fairly represented, and that the encroach-
ing power of the aristocracy, and the practice of bribery,
had not yet created nomination and corrupt boroughs.—
(Cheers.) Had Algernon Sydney lived to see the rise and
operation of this lawless and unconstitutional controul,
and of these disgraceful practices in the representative sys-
tem, the just and honest indignation to which he would
have given utterance would have prevented his ever bring
praised by the Hon. Member for Aldborough.—(Cheers.)
The Right Hon. Baronet, too, bad made a quotation from
the work of the Right Hon. Gentleman who usually sat
on that (the Ministerial) side of the House; but allow him
to say that, looking at the aspect of the times, and at the
declared wishes of the nation, he considered that quotation
to be in favour of, and not against, the Ministerial mea-
sure of Reform.

Lord EASTNOR thought the amendment of the Right
Hon. Baronet a great improvement in the Bill. He con-
fessed that he bad been long opposed to any general mea-
sure of Reform ; but he assured the Committee that be-
fore the present Ministry caw into office, he had come to
an opinion that a Reform in the representation was ne-
cessary. He should have been glad, therefore, if he had
been able, as he hoped he should be, to support the mea-
sure of Reform introduced by this Ministry ; but when he
saw it, be found it effected so sweeping a change, such a
rooting up of ancient foundations, that he found he could
not, consistent n ith what he felt it to be his duty, give it
his support. He thought that by the preservation of these
boroughs, they would preserve in some degree that balance
which had maintained the equilibrium of the Constitu-
tion ; and he was of opinion, that by thus in pat t
dis-
franchising them, they would take away from that due
proportion of influence which the agricultural influence
ought to possess. They had been told that the additional
number of county Members would make up for any loss
which the agricultural influence might experience in this
instance, but he did not think so, and under such circum-
stancis he should certainly support the amendment pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. CRESSET PELHAM said, that his Majesty's
Ministers were evidently treading in the steps of Cromwell.
He would recommend them to adopt the advice of Al-
gernon Sydney, and to follow a more moderate course of
proceeding.
The Committee then
divided—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority for Ministers ---67

The original motion teas then put and carried.
On our return to the gallery we found the Chairman
putting the question, " That the borough of Aldborough,
Yorkshire, stand part of schedule B."
Mr. SADLER did not believe that the whole of Eng-

land could furnish a more respectable class of constituents
than existed in this borough. He contended that it should
be taken out of the schedule, and that the privilege of re-
turning two Members should be still continued to it.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that all the electors in Ald-
borough, as well as Boroughbridge, who had an opinion of
their own to give, had expressed themselves in favour of
the Reform Bill. If they disfranchised this borough alto-
gether, they would not deprive the constituents there of a
franchise which they had ever been &lowed to exercise
with freedom. Ile must say, that he for one regretted
that his Majesty's Ministers had taken this borough out of
schedule A.—(Hear, hear.) If it were not too late to put
it hack again into that schedule, he would move that it
should reinstated there.—(Cheers.) It was the greatest
farce in the world to talk of this borough as possessing a
population which should entitle it to be exempted from the
operation of this Bill. That population could only be
made out for it by culling it from four or five adjoining pa-
rishes, which had a population in 1521 which they did not
possess. He would defy any set of Parliamentary com-
missioners to find a constituency of 300 electors in Ald-
borough. It would be a most monstrous thing that the
country gentlemen and farmers in the neighbourhood
of this borough should be deprived of their -votes for the
county on account of the preservation of this rotten stinking
borough of Aldhorough. It would be perfectly monstrous
and nonsensical to entertain such a proposition as that. If
the Hon. Baronet (the Member for Westminster) were in
his place, he could prove that the seats for this borough
had been bought and sold, for that the Hon. Baronet had
himself purchased his seat for this borough during the
minority of the Noble Duke to whom it belonged. This
Was one of those boroughs which, according to the pre-
amble of the Bill, should be totally disfranchised, and he
would therefore move, as an amendment, " that the bo-
rough of Aldborough be returned to schedule A. (Loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches, and laughter from the
Opposition.)
Mr. SADLER begged to state, that this borough had
been separated for many years front that interest to which
the Hon. Gentleman had at, unceremoniously alluded.
Lord STORNIONT said, that the Hon. Member for
Hertford, when he stigmatized the constituency of Ald-
borough, ought to recollect that his own brother was a free.
man of that town.

Mr. DUNCOMBE.—No, he is not.—(Laughter and
cheers.)

Lord STORNIONT continued.—Does the Hon. Mem-
ber mean to say that he was not? for if he does, he could
contradict hint, for when he (Lord Stormont) was Mem-
ber for Aldborough, he recollected that the Hon. Gentle •
man's brother had given hint his vote. He should wish
to know if the Hon. Member included his brother in what
he was pleased to term the disgraceful constituency of All-
borough. Ile believed that the Hon. Gentleman's brother
had given him (Lord Stormont) his vote independently,
and so had done all the rest of the freeholders.—(Laughter.)
The town of Hertford was notoriously one of the most cor-
rupt places in the kingdom, and nobody could get into
Parliament for that town without spending money ; but
when he (Lord Stormont) was Member for Aldborough,
it had never cost him one single farthing.—(Laughter.)
His constituents had not been treated and indulged in
drunkenness.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member fir Hert-
ford stood up and reviled the manner in which Members
got into that House, but why did he not advert to the still
more disgraceful manner in which he himself had got into
Parliament ?
Mr. DUNCOMBE was sorry to see that the passions of
the boroughmongers so completely got the better of them.
—(Laughter.) The ruling passion was so strong in
death—(A laugh)—that out they came,furgot the borough,
and engaged in personalities. The Noble Lord had said
that his (Mr. Duncombe's) brother had voted for him at
the election for Aldborough, and he (Mr. Duncombe)
would have voted for him himself, in preference, at least,
to those who were opposed to him. In point of fact,

1;11Kak there was but one constituent for Ahlbotough,
an hat was his Grace the Duke et Newcastle. The
Noble Lord bad said, " Wait for Reform, and see if von
will get better Members." Why should they be better?
He (Mr. Duncombe) would ask, in return, why they
should not get better Menibers? He should like to know
in what consisted the superiority of the New, astle norni •
trees over Members freely chosen by the people. He could
tell the Noble Lord that it was not enough for him to extol
his own services. Another tribunal must put a value
upon them,—the public were estimating the costs as well
as the nature of the services of the boroughmongers, and
he could tell them that the result would not be very flat-
tering to their vanity. The sense and virtue of an in-
sulted peopl • ht,Al risen against them, and he would advise
the Noble Lord not to be indifforent to the facts.
Mr. N. CALVERT would maintain that there were
not in that House a more independent set of Members
than the representatives for Hertford.
Lord STORMONT disclaimed any intention of being
personal.
Sir C. WETIIERELL had been twice the representative
for Boroughbridge, and no expense had be been put to
except in giving an enterainmerr to the freeholders after
the election was over, and he could assure the House the'
it was a much cheaper entertainment than that which the
Hon. Member for Hertford had given to his constituents.
If he were rightly informed, the monition de beadle had
cost tbe Hon. Member for Hertford 3,000/. or 4,000/.,
whilst his (Sir C. Wetherell's) constituents had been con-
tent with a handsome dinner, which had cost him only a
cendecimal of the Hertford entertainment. The attri-
buting the sale of the borough to the Duke of Newcastle
was a calumny. The Hon. Member for Hertford had said
that he and his side of the House had treated the Opposi-

tion too gently ; but if such was his oil, what mug be hi-
vinegar?—(A laugh)—if such was his mellient, what
would he his caustic ? He wished the Gallant Member
had confined himself to the boroughs in schedule B, and
had not wandered to the defunct schedule A. He wished
that he hail attacked the livin4, arid not the dead. Per-
haps the Hon. Member recollected Shakspeare, and Ii
reflected upon Falstaff who had fought a dead man for
nn hour.—(A laugh.) Would he walk over the cadaver—
the trunks of dead men ? Was his the courage, the spirit,
the genius, the new illumination of the new Parliament?
The Hon. Member, in reviling the Duke of Newcastle,
' had reviled as generous and as high-minded a Nobleman ~s
any in the country, and he regrett,d that his Aliijesty's
Ministers had cheered those revilings.—(Cheers from the
Opposition benches.) The Learned Gentleman proceeded
at some length, but was inaudible from the laughter and
the expressions of impatience in the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER com-
plained of the mitiner in which the Learuql Member had
been Itti from the point before the House. He contended
that the borough of Ahlborough was properly placed in
schedule B, and that it was too late to move that it be
inserted in schedule A.

Mr. CURRIE said, that in justice to the inhabitants of
Hertford he could declare that, to his knowledge, the con-
stituents had not taken a bribe, at least in the two elec-
tions with which he bad been acquainted.
Mr. PRAED wished to point out to the Hon. Member
for Hertford that he might at present divide the House,
upon the question whether Alaorough should stand put
of schedule B, and he could afterwards take the sense of
the House whether it should be included in schedule A.
Mr. ATTWOOD wished to know whether the Noble
Lord personally approved of the borongh being included in
schedule B.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was perfectly clear to the Committee that the point before
them was approved of by Minister 4, and as he formed one
of that Administration, be of course approved of the in-
sertiun of the borough in schedule B.
Mr. DAWSON must remind the Noble Lord that h7s
observation was not consistent with his vote of the pre-
ceding evening.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he certainly had voted for leaving a borough out of
schedule A, which had been inserted in it, but be had stated
bis reasons fur so doing. He saw no grounds whatever for
altering his opinion on the present occasion.
• -

The cries of " Question" became vehement, and after a
few words from Mr. O'CONNELL and ➢lr. STANLEY, Mr.
DUNCOMBE withdrew his amendment, and the question
was put and carried.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question, " That the bo-
rough of Atnersham stand part of schedule B," which was
carried.

On the question " That the borough of Arundel stand
part of schedule B,"
Alerman ATKINS should divide the Committee upon
this question. The borough of Arundel contained 463 scot
and lot burgesses, all resident in the town, and this was not
a nomination borough.
Lord D. C. STUART was independent to the utmost
extent of the term, and had been as freely chosen as his
Hon. Colleague, but he felt it his duty to vote for the dis-
franchisement of one of the representatives of this borough.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the population of the place
being within 4,000, he saw no reason for its exemption.

Aiter some further remarks from Mr. Alderman ATKIN s,
the question was agret d to.
On the question, "That the borough of Ashburton
(Devon) stand part of the schedule,"
Mr. POYNTZ said, that having voted against the
motion for giving two Members to Aldborough, it might
appear inconsistent in him to propose giving two Mem-
bers to Ashburton ; but this was the strongest ease in the
schedule. He should read to the House the memorial
which had been presented by this borough. The Hon.
Member then read a memorial of some length, presentel
to the Secretary of State, but the noise in the House pre-
vented more than passages being occasionally heard. The
memorialists stated, that according to the census of 1821
the population was 3,403, the inhabited houses 396, tho-e
uninhabited 15 ; total, 411. The difference between
the census of 1821 and that of 1831 was nearly '7OO,
the present population being 4,091, and the increase of
houses being 138 since 1821. There were now upwards
of 300 houses of 101. a year.
Colonel TORRENS said that the borough of Ash.
burton was warmly in favour of this Bill, and when it was
known to the electors, they bad met and voted thanks to
his Majesty's Ministers. He corroborated the statements
of his Hon. Colleague, and added that there had be-n an
error in the return of 1821, by which 86 houses had been
left out owing to the negligence of the returning officer. The
case of Ashburton was stronger than that of Appleby, and
he reckoned therefore upon the support of those Members
who had voted on that question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it did not appear to
bins that there were sufficient grounds for taking this bo-
rough out of the schedule. It appeared that there was a
manor—the manor of Halsanger—containing 500 persons,
which it was said had been omitted in the return ; but
even adding that number to 3,403, the numbers of the
borough and parish, it would mike 3,903 only, which
was considerably below the number of 4,000 ; and there-
fore it was not a case of so much hardship at that of
Woodstock, last night. Wiih respect to the mistakes
which were alleged to be in the returns of 1821, there
might be some occasionally; but it was not necessary to
go back to correct them. But with regard to Ashburton,
it was curious enough that the statements of the petitioners
did not make out their case. They stated, th.tt by the re-
cent return there was an increase of 138 houses since
1821 ; that 52 only had been built_ ince that period, con-
sequentlymultiply t
aowtBk
hehe6ai
sce4hli I
:110y: house,9ueasiedg.sdhet added
theuhtreotee additioncnoa3uml,mc4uiobtitomitted
tni o(s;gtth4ahenie
the number of houses built since 1821—namely, 52—and
Is) yft:blistBat rk3aiicni
mg this number from 4,165, the population would be
3,749 only ; so that, on every ground, there was no rea-
son for exempting Ashburton.
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP and Mr.
O'CONNELL, the motion was agreed to.
On the que-tion, " that Bodmin stand part of the
schedule."
Mr. DAVIES GILBERT confessed that he could make
out no case, which, on the principle of the Noble Lord,
would take it out of the rule. He would remark, how-
ever, that the voters were highly respectable persons, and
that Bodmin was virtually a county town, increasing in
size, and rapidly improving.
The question was agreed to.
The question was then put, " that the borough of
Bridport stand part of schedule B."
Sir HORACE ST. PAUL opposed the motion. The
borough of Bridport, he said, was co-extensive with the
parish, but not with the town of Bridport. By the census
of 1821, the population of the borough was 3,742. Now
the part of the town of Bridport which was not in the
borough was a continuation of the streets of the borough,
and contained a population of 1,550 souls. As the town
of Bridport was still of the same extent as it was in the
year 1821, when the census gave the population above
that the population at present exceeded. that amount.
4,000, he thought that he was only justified in assuming
The number of houses at 101. annual rent in the borough
was now 340 ;—in that part of the town out. of the
borough, 60. The census of 1831 gave the population of
6
the town and borough at 4,200. He had now stated a
another
population
;aal l returnnow,wing wouldeg t
case which, if gentlemen would recollect figures and num-
bers, and would only vote impartially, must induce them

to take the botough of Ibidport out of schedule B. 1
Hon. Member then moved an amendment to that effect.

Mr. WARBURTON opposed the amendment. Pi'
Hon C.lleague had stated the population of the borouP
of Bridport, which was co-extensive with the parish
Bridport, to be 3,742. His Hon. Colleague had, hcil,
ever, stated that there were other parishes included in!
town of which the population, if added to the populao
of the borough, would make a population of more th
4,000 for the town of Bridport. Now the, urisdiction
the bailiff and the burgesses of the borough of Bria
was limited to the borough only, and did not extend I°
the two neighbouring parishes of Bradpool and Alline°
Now what was the population of those parishes?
pool contained 926, and Allington 1,139. He adnnti
that pat t of the parish of Bradpool might be considered
l
part ()Idle town of Bridport, but that. part of Bradpool:
not colvain more than 200 inhabitants. Adding t'
number to the pqpnhation of the borough, you did
make the population of the borough more than 3,942.
to the parish of Abington, it was divided from the v)"
of Bridport by a small river, and no man who blew!'
thing of the localities would say that the parish of All,"
ton formed any part of the town of Bridport. Indeed',
that parish it was impossible to state that any Rut of t'
population belonged to the town of Bridport. He the
fore asserted that, in 152,1, the population of the town
Bridport did not come up to 4,000, and it was beyond
questiim that the population of that borough fell very 911(
of that amount : this induced hint to think that the t
rough of Bridport ought to be inserted in schedule
and he was happy to say that such was the opinion nil
constituents who had returned him to that House.

Sir E. SUGDEN would not ask the opinion of 0101
habitant.. of Bridport, as to whether they would conseottl
be sacs limed or net. He would only ask what was jut
the town of Bridport on the one hand, and to the cotsvi
on the other. The Hon. and Learned Member then 1
tended that Minist.rs ()wilt. to apply to this borough
same rule which they had applied to the borough
Truro, and went over wain the (Xten repeated arguele
of the partiality of Ministers in applying one rule to t
borough, and another to such paces as Appleby
Bridport. The Learned Member dwelt upon this pc
at such length, that the House manifested its impatil
by loud anour and repeated bursts of laughter. -j
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then turn.d round and
-buked the House, stating that the manner in whi/
was proceeding to exercise its judicial functions in disfr
chisiug boroughs without hearing either argument 4
evidence, was one of the most monstrous exhibitions
he had ever witnessed in his life.—(Roars of laughter'
The uproarious ,ursts of laughter which be then b
around him struck him as one of the worst signs of
timts.—(Benewed laughter, and cheers from the OPP-
., tion.) Judging from what then took place, he expect
when (he reformed Parliament a-sembled, to see evf
measure carried by acclamation. No man would d't.
to eet up in the reformed House and spe.k sensibli
—(R ears of laughter.) He supposed that be bad kkt
s witething very foolish—(Renewed laughter)—but
was not aware of it, and he was only spur
ing the concretion of his mind.—(Oh, oh, /)
laughter.) Were not these signs to lead the II
to the conclusion that a Reformed Parliament would
by acclamation measures which could not be carried,
sound judgment?—(Cheers from the Opposition-)
felt convinctd that when the reformed Parliament '
with the inclination of a new body to alter every thing
the old Constitution which it did not like, they would h)
measures perpetually carried, not by calm reasoning,
by clamour, iutimidatien, and violence.—(Laughter,
cheers front the Opposition.) The Hon. and Lear'
Member concluded by charging the Hon. Member ,
Bridport, who. supported the disfranchisement of elotti3i
rough, with great inconsistency, in supporting this
in the manner he did, since that Hon. Member
fraukly avowed that it (lid not go far enough for his
poses, and that he only looked upon it as a means W/
terior objects. He gave his zealous support to the stn
ment.

Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that it was very Pnit
for houses to adjoin the borough, without being et,
to be considered as an integral part of it. The c3r.si
Truro, on the other hand, was dear and decided, an(l4d
salted no analogy whatever to that of Bridport.
he sat down, he could not avoid noticing the mann
which the Hon. and Learned Member opp(:site (Sig t
Sugdrn) had thought proper to lecture the House un
mole of discussing public busines. Now he hap Pei
to have ten sears' longer experience of that House tlattf).,
Learned Geneeman, and begged leave to state, for bee o
formation, that there was nothing peculiar in the con"
of Members during these debates which could in any,
gree justify his sneers or animadversions. When ;
and uninteresting detai's were under consideration, gee.
men had always been in the habit of conversing wit;
another as they had done now in the presence of the P
Mettok.r for St. latawes, so that he might set his tnioo
,
rest with respect to the apprehended revolutionary at'
toms. For himself individually, he could take cred,il,
being much more fatigued by these discussions than Pi
Men-bets who were exempt front avocations during
entire of the mornin.z. •
Lord STORMONT urged, that the case of Brodpo
closely resembled that of Woodstock as to justify I)
di.po•ing of both boroughs in a similar manner ; but 1.1
the principles on which Ministers acted one day We
,0
different from those which they had laid down uporratigoe
that he could scarcely believe them to be the same A. 4
nitration. Their imbecility and weakness were, ill P.)
altogether incredible to those who had not heard
speeches and witnessed their actions.—(Laughter.)
The resolution was then agreed to, and Bridport aC
ingly stands part of schedule 13.

The ntxt borough, Buckingham, was similarly
of without any olHervation.
On the question that Chippenham stand part of
dule B,

Captain BOLDER° demanded permission to be'
lowed to produce evidence on oath far the purposed°
ing that this borough was entitled to be removed 4
schedule B, as it had contained 4,411 inhabitants in I
although the returns of that year had assigned it
lation of only 3 506. By parochial returns whir
been made out with a view to levy assessments for
rates, it could be proved to the satisfaction of the
mittee that 155 houses had been wholly excluded fOrili
returns on which they acted : hence the apparel:ol
ciency. The case of Chippenham, be submitted,
much stronger one than that of the neighbouring b°,4
of Caine, and it was therefore to be hoped that the
Lord would at least allow him an opportunity to est6'
facts so important to the maintenance of the just P,
leges of an ancient, loyal, and respectable town, for
was none more so on the list.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. STANLEY said it was unfair to discuss the
Chippenham by comparison, as it ought to stand (t.
by its own merits, without reference to the case of
other borough, whether adjacent or remote. Since' 1,
ever, Caine had been once more quoted as an ex3l,/
partiality, he would mention one broad fact which
sufficienly demonstrate the injustice of the ace°6.so
The Neble Lord, to whose influence the exenebt
Caine was so generally attributed, had, in fact, a rig
olg
property in but three houses out of the 208 of and !4
the value of 101. a year in the town, which would t,
right of elective franchise. As to the case of ChipPri
it appeared the borough and parish together contaief;4,
a population of 3,021, and be therefore saw no e°o,ll
reason why it should Am takettopt of the schedule ill
it now stood. ti°
Mr. SADLER said that Chippenham had a Pri,
claim on the affectionate regard of the House, 0 jet
been so closely connected with the father and fog°
the Constitution.—(" Oh, oh.") st"
Mr. G. BANKES thought it hard that evidence();
not be received on a point of such importance, 70'1
sisted that the refusal of his Gallant Friend's rot°
a direct violation of the pledge which the Chalice*"
the Exchequer had voluntarily given before the
went into a Committee.—(Hear.) CIA
Sir It. PEEL observed that the borough of
haul, in 1821, had contained 576 inhabited house' dj
four tithings connected with it were taken into the
Istion, but what lie thought particularly remarlatby o,
the fact that by the returns of 1811 it appeared !rip,
borough, tithings inclusive, actually contained 66:4
bited houses. This certainly afforded a reasoerpli
gumption that there must be some mistake in the,,o,r,„
serial retarna of 1821, and he would therefore pry
Government the propriety of allowing the Hoe.l
lant Member an opportunity to make out bis •
itself,
on the first blush appeared so probable in itself,
easily susceptible of proof.—(Hear, hear.) 41
Mr. PUSEY contended that the returns of ISM
the houses and the population touch lower than t"h`igliA,
were. It could be proved that the returns on
Noble Lord want were incorrect as to the number `Litil_d
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER as
i
might have been a mistake as to the number °f bed
hut the returns as to the population appeared "g
rect ; but if they were not, how could they 00 ho
the returns of 1821 as to the population ? .
Sir C. WETHERELL contended, that 130:71,e80
to hear counsel or evidence, the Committee i'''OT( eifid
of gross injustice if it refused to institute some )ntsiseP,',,
the statement of Hon. Members of which prod liplinigod
If they did not, the intimation thrown out by of
that where a case could be made out it would u`''

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