The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-02 00:00:00

occasion, that we intend to devote any surplus that may arise
to the same purposes as we proposed to du last year—namely,
to devote what was requisite for the Protestant Ministers of
the Established Church, and to devote any surplus that
might then arise from the revenues of the Church to the
general education of the people, without any distinction as
to religion or creed —(Cheers ) I will not trouble the
House with giving any explanations of the details of this
Bill; because my Noble Friend (Lord Merpeth) who pro-
posed the Bill, and to whom is due the merit of framing
the Bill, on what I consider to be just principles, will be
prepared to do so ; and also to show that he has allowed
a sufficiency for the Clergy, and to explain the grounds
on which he framed the scale of incomes. I confess
that if I had had to frame the outline of the Bill, I
am not quite sure that I should have allotted a scale to the
same amount ; but this is a subject on which my Noble Friend
will be prepared to answer any objections. In consequence of
the objections made last year, we have felt disposed to yield in
some degree, upon one point. We now propose to keep up
the number of benefices, and to afford a sufficiency for the
maintenance of each clergyman, requisite for the due perform-
ance of divine worship. I cannot go further ; but the plan
we now propose to act upon is similar in principle to that of
the former measure ; and it is the principle on which the Go-
vernment still propose to act. Do Honourable Gentlemen
forget the relative proportions in some parts of Ireland, be-
tween the members of the Established Church and of other
religious communities ? 'Fake two of the provinces of Ireland
—the provinces of Tuam and Cashel. In Tuam, there are
44,599 members of the Established Church, and 1,188,568
Catholics. In Cashel there are 111,813 members of the Es-
tablished Church, and 2,220,340 Roman Catholics—making
in the two provinces, 156,412 members of the Establishment,
and 3,408,908 Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) The principle on
which my Noble Friend's (Lord Stanley's) measure proposes
to go is, that there should be due and adequate provision made
for the income of the Clergy who attend to the spiritual
interests of the 156,412 members of the Church ; but
that we should neglect altogether' the 3,408,908 Catholics.—
(Cheers.) Upon this principle we entirely differ.—( Hear,
hear.) We differ entirely as regards this Bill, and as re-
gards every other measure respecting Ireland. I and my col-
leagues are of opinion that the Government of Ireland, in
consequence of the mode in which it has acted, has at all
times, and down to almost the latest period, been productive of
great evil, by encouraging a strong party spirit, and has much
neglected the interests of the great body of the people.—
( Cheers.) I could give some instances in proof of this of a dif-
ferent kind, and on different aubjects from the present measure,
and I think that this is the great point of difference between us
and our opponents.—( Hear.) There would be no difficulty in
pointing out how that difference of principle has operated, and
showing, by illustration and example, how the Government has
been carried on. One instance which recently came under
my attention pointedly shows it. It was one which was men-
tioned in this House on a former occasion, and that in a most
rambling manner, and in a way which did not make that
impression on the House which I think that it should have
made. My Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-General for
Ireland, in taking a view of the state of that country in his
official capacity, found that it was not the practice to prose-
cute officially at the Quarter Sessions those persons who had
been guilty of assaults, and who engaged in quarrels which
often led to bloodshed. He was of opinion that leaving such
crimes unpunished addicted the peasantry to lawless outrages,
and contributed to excite in them a disregard of the law.
His Right Hon. Friend directed that not only the Crown
solicitor should attend at the different assizes, but that soli.
citors should be appointed to attend and prosecute these assaults
at the various quarter sessions in Ireland. A question on this
subject was raised in the House only a few weeks ago. It was
asked whether many of the solicitors appointed to carry on
these prosecutions were not Roman Catholics ?—( Cheers.)
The object was to put down outrages and prevent crime, and
for this purpose to use the efforts and skill of the different so-
licitors in the various towns in Ireland. The question was not
raised as to whether this proceeding was desirable—as to whe-
ther the purse and revenues of the Crown should be used for
the purpose of preventing crime, but as to whether the soli-
citors employed to carry on these prosecutions were not Ro-
man Catholics.—(Cheers.) I can give another instance of
the same kind with resyect to the administration of justice in
Ireland, and with reference to which my Right Honourable
Friend has succeeded in making an alteration.—( Cheers.)
Is has been the practice—although an alteration has been made
by the recent jury law for Ireland—for the Crown to
challenge fifty or more persons called as jurors in a common
case, and where there was nothing of a serious nature, and
this merely on some political or religious suspicion. The con-
sequence of this practice was, that there arose a suspicion on
the part of the people against the trial by jury, and it was be-
lieved that in these cases the source of justice was tainted and
was not impartial. My Right Hon. Friend directed that the
practice should cease, and that all persons called upon juries
should serve.—( Hear, hear.) I have received a number of
letters from impartial persons in Ireland, who inform me that
this change had -already had a visible and obviously beneficial
effect 011 the minds of the people. They now felt a security
in the administration of justice, and they said that they should
have a fair trial when called up.—( Hear, hear.) The trials
for offences which grew out of popular differences were deeply
regarded by the people, and they now said when a man was
prosecuted that at any rate he would have a fair trial, and
justice would be dine. —( Hear, hear.) It was only by means
such as these; and by attending to the wants and wishes of the
people of Ireland, that you will get them to cease to resort to
crime on any occasion, and to support the law and the institu-
tions of the country, and to give to the Government and Parlia-
ment that confidence without which your armies are useless
for the preservation of tranquillity.—( Cheers.) But I can-
not avoid mentioning another subject which, indeed, is different
from the present matter of debate, but which I shall soon have
an opportunity to bring under the consideration of the House.
I mean the Bill which was proposed to the House on the sub-
ject of Municipal Corporations in Ireland. —( Hear.) I main-
tain that this is one instance of a measure where we thought
Ireland should be governed on the same principles which we
wish to apply in this Bill—and let no man say this does not
belong to the subject before the House—and which was op-
posed on similar grounds to those which were urged against
this measure and this occurred because the principles of
both parties were essentially different as to the the mode of
governing Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) We hold that the
Roman Catholics of Ireland arc to be considered on an equal
account with their Protestant fellow-subjects, and that as
they freely wish to join with us in loyalty to the throne and
attachment to the institutions of the country, that they should
be dealt with in a like manner, and on equal rights ; but they
have been treated in a way that has led them to adopt the opi-
nion that as they are aliens to our Church—that as they
differ from us in religion, and have, therefore, had civil
rights withheld from them, that the Church is that of their
tyrants and oppressors.—( Hear, hear.) I contend that with
respect to the general subject, the party opposed to us have
acted on essentially different principles from ourselves. I
have now an opportunity, which I have not had before, of
alluding to the Irish Municipal Bill. Looking, then, to the
amended Bill which has been sent to us from the other House
on the subject of Corporations in Ireland, I cannot help re-
marking, that I observe the same principle as that on which
the Noble Lord ( Lord Stanley) has founded his Bill, namely,
the principle of contempt and degradation towards the Roman
Catholics—(Cheers)—running through the whole of the
amendments.—( Loud cheers.) I confess that when the Right
lion. Gentleman proposed the instruction to the Committee, I
had some difficulty on this point. I was anxious to know, sup-
posing the amendment to be carried, what would be the pro-
visions that would be proposed, and seeing my Noble Friend
opposite support it, I wondered in what way they would agree
that the new Bill should be framed.—(llear, hear.) In Eng-
lish politics the principles of the Right Hon. Gentleman and
my Noble Friend have hitherto been entirely different.—
( Cheers.) I now find this Bill not a Bill which is founded on
Whig principles—( Cheers)—not founded, I repeat, on Whig
principles of liberty--( Renewed cheers)—not founded on Tory
principles of respect for ancient establishments—( Loud cheers)
but a mixture of some new principles which have been adopted
with some which were acted upon in the most sanguinary
part of the French revolution, and in the worst period of the
military empire of that country.—( Loud cheers.) I say that
I consider the principle of this Bill and that of the amend-
ment of any Noble Friend similar.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
.felt hauled to consider the subject with reference
to the whole system of Government hitherto pursued in Ire-
land, and that this point should not be departed from, the
system pursued should be in accordance with the wisdom
and sense of the country, and directed by that reason which,
as my Noble Friend observed, should be the guide of the
course of Government. If the House is of opinion that we
must consider the wants end wishes and interests of the Ro-
man Catholic subjects of his Majesty, then it will be right
and consistent to agree to let the Bill, prepared by my Noble
Friend (Lord Morpeth) near rue, be proceeded with ;
however, I was of opinion that this important point should
be altogether omitted from our consideration, that I would
admit that the plan of the Noble Lord (Stanley) opposite
was a plan which was well worthy of consideration--( Hear,
hear)—l contend that the course pursued by Honourable
Gentlemen opposite involves this consequence—that after
the House of Commons had decided on the principle on
which Ireland shall be governed for the future, that
if we should rescind one promise, and make the cup we
had held out to them as much more bitter as we could, and
told them that it- should no longer be suffered to approach
their lips, and that we would persist in a course which was
degrading to them, and would sacrifice the principle, and
pollute the source of justice as regarded them, we should
have to contend with much opposition and with many obstacles
from the feelings which would be manifested by the people of
Ireland ; and I think, likewise, that we should have to contend
with the reason and opinion of the people of England—
(Cheers)—who row are turning their attention to Irish sub-
jects, which for a long time did not attract sufficient considera-
tion in this country, and which, when they do, I feel convinced
that the English people will do as they have always done,
namely, do as they would be done by, and on these subjects
treat their Irish fellow-Subjects with regard and affection, and
lend them their support, and thus lead to a real'and complete
union of the two countries.—( Loud and continued cheers.)
Dr. L E FRO Y said that there was nothing whatever in the
Noble Lord's speech that couldibc recognised as an answer to
the arguments put forward by the Noble Lord the Member 'for
North Lancashire. The Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire-
land talked of a surplus which could by no means be proved to
exist; and the real question was whether they should leave
entertaining that visionary notion, and at once proceed to the
adjustment of the tithe question, and the better regulation of
the revenue of the Church of Ireland.—(Hear.) But the
supporters of the measure rather preferred to insist on the
iS a surplus, and be could show such surrlus could
not by possibility exist. (The Hon. and Learned Member
then entered into a calculation for the purpose of showing,that
not only could no surplus exist, but that, according to the
principle laid down by Lord Morpeth, viz., that every parish