The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

PRICE 7D.

work upon the House of Commons, and that House upon
the other branches of the State. If with the aid of a

2owerful and popular Press, his ?Majesty's Government
.hould carry that measure through the other House, and
it should be sent up here, it would be the duty of their
Lordships to stand between the Crown and the people, and
to defend the Crown and the Aristocracy from popular
,nervachment. He would call on them to consider well

in what situation would that House he 'Awed should the
Bill not pass. Parliament would be dissolved—or, if he

could not positively assert that, as it had not been directly
menaced, he would sly so hypothetically. If Parliament
Cleo should be dissolved, would they not then have a con-
ventional Parliament ?—(Hear, hear.) In the House of
Commons there would he no room for deliberation on the
subject of the Bill.—(Hear.) It would then remain for
their Lordships to decide the question : and was it fair

that they should not he allowed to come to the deliberation
uninfluenced by reference to the wishes of the Sovereign ?
In God's name, he would say, let them enter upon the
discussion freely, but not the measure to be driven upon
thtan by force. In the other House it could not be freely
discussed again. No Member for a populous place could
give a deliberate vote. He must, he his opinions what
they may, vote for the Bill—( Hear, hear)—or he should
be sent to the right about. The new House of Commons
would be an assembly of delegates e,p,cially appointed by-
the people to enact that measure. Under what circum-
stances then were their Lordships to discuss it ? That a
Liberal and Whig Ministry should have placed them in
that situation, he confessed did much surprise him. He
had now gone through the observations which he had
thought it his duty to offer to their Lordships, and he
would not detain them longer than to express his opinion
that the measure would be fatal to the Constitution, that

it, would destroy the action of the different 'matches of the
State upon one another, and that it would have a tendency
to the introduction of a Republican Government into this
country.—(Hear.) He concluded by moving for return,
respecting the populations of the boroughs and towns of

England and Wales.
Lord Durtruot and Viscount SIDMOCTIT having
risen at the same time, amidst loud calls for Lord Durham,
Lord KENYON spoke to order, and claimed Viscount
Sidmouth's right to address the House upon a point of
order.

Earl GREY, rising to order, said that be would take
the sense of the House as to whether his Noble Friend
(Lord Durham) should be heard in reply, he having first
risen.

Viscount SIDAIOUTH said that he would claim his
privilege to he heard when he rose to speak to order.—
(Hear, hear.) When his Noble Friend near him (Lord
Wharncliffe) was speaking he was frequently disposed to
interrupt him, and to speak to order.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile never listened to any speech with greater pain. He
much regretted two or three weeks ago, to hear his Noble
Friend give notice of his present motion, and it had been
with great gratification be learned that it was withdrawn.
His Noble Friend had much disappointed hint by the re-
newal of that motion, for he felt that it would lead the
House into an it-regular and anomalous discussion upon a
Bill which was' not yet upon their Lordship? table.
But he did not suppose that it was his Noble Friend's in-
tention deliberately to introduce the discussion. All that
the House knew of the Bill was, that it had been read a

second time, and was ordered to be committed.

House of Commons itself did not yet know its details,
which, however, his Noble Friend bad there discussed.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that as the House had
heard his Noble Friend out, he should claim his right to
be heard in explanation.
Viscount SIDMOUTH said that all he desired was to
prevent the continuance of a discussion which was ob-
viously premature and irregular.
The Earl of Etnox and Earl GREY rose together;
after repeated calls for each from their respective sides, the
former gave way.
Earl GREY said that his Noble Friend opposite had
not given any cause for complaint as to unfairness, or
taking the house by surprise; for he had expressly stated,
in giving notice of his motion, that his purpose in moving
for the returns was to raise the discussion of the whole
question.—( Hear.) How far it might be convenient or
customary to discuss a Bill which was not before their
Lordships, was a question which he would not undertake
to decide ; but he thought that they could not with pro-
priety, in the present state of the discussion, prevent its
proceeding, after the luminous and argumentative speech
in which the Noble Lord opposite had stated his opinions•
He could not agree with his Noble Friend opposite, that
they might not discuss the principle of the Bill, although
it had not come regularly before them, however inconve-
nient it might he to go into its details. He hoped, there-
fore, that their Lordships would not think it contrary to
their orders to allow the discussion to proceed.—( Hear.)
The Earl of ELDON said, that although he had not

heard what fell from his Noble Friend at -the time of his
giving notice of the present motion, yet, from the expla-
nation of the Noble Earl opposite, he must agree that his
Noble Friend had not acted towards the House with any
degree of unfairness. However, having sat in their Lord-
ships' House for more than thirty years, he was, several
times during the speech of his Noble Friend, strongly dis-
posed to put a stop to a discussion which was directly con-
trary to the whole course of Parliamentary usage. It was
not merely because the Bill was not before the House, nor
because it might perhaps never come before them, that he
took shame to himselffor not having interrupted the Noble
Lord when he not only entered into the premature discus-
sion—when he not only argued upon the details of the
Bill—but stated the motives and intentions with which
Members of the Lower House of Parliament had voted in
its support.—(Hear.) Nothing could be more irregular
than the speech of his Noble Friend in that respect.—
(Hear.) He (Lord Eldon) would take no part in the di-
vision upon the present motion. In following that course
he would not be suspected of disrespect to his Noble
Friend or to the House ; but he felt he was much to blame
for not having risen to order during his Noble Friend's
speech ; and he would therefore not take part in the divi-
sion of a measure which had been introduced in a manner
than which nothing could he more revolutionary of the
usages of that House.—(Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he admired
the candour and self-accusation with which his Noble
Friend had expressed Isis regret for having listened to every
argument that could fairly be brought against the general
principle of the Bill, and to a good many snore than could
fairly be brought against its details. But if the House
acted upon the suggestion of his Noble Friend, and put
a stop to the discussion in its present state, would it not
go forth to the country, that, while the people were hang-
ing in breathless suspense upon the fate of that measure
(respecting which the unanimity of their approbation was
admitted by its opponents), a speech of great force, elo-
quence, and clearness against that measure Lad been lis-
tened to for two hours by their Lordships with the utmost
patience, and that then, at the end of that speech, it was
discovered that the discussion was disorderly, the measure
not being yet come regularly before the House? Making
that discovery at the end of two hours, they cried out,
" Oh, we have been so long irregular—in God's name,
let us stop now--don't let us exhaust our whole stock of
irregularity at once.—(A laugh.) Every man is irregular
sometimes, just as every man will now and then eat un-
wholesome food ; but what should become of a man if he
were to eat it all at once?"—(A laugh.) There was oc-
casional irregularity every where—at the Bar, and in Par-
liament, as, indeed, he had seen snore than one instance
that night.—(A laugh.) The Noble and Learned Lord
had tolerated the irregularity whilst it was against the
Bill, but he would check it at once when it was likely to
dz.-. in favour of the measure. He agreed with his Noble
Friend that the discussion should be confined to the prin-
ciple of the Bill, and that its details should be attended to
sparingly, and only for the sake of illustration. His Noble
Friend had acted fairly and candidly in giving notice of
the present motion ; for he informed the House that he
would bring forward the whole question for discussion.
Lord DURHAM said, that when he first presented
himself to their Lordships to reply to his Noble Friend
opposite, Ile would not have persisted in opposing the
Noble Viscount who then rose to order, but that, as a
Member of the Government, he felt himself especially
called on to answer the objections of his Noble Friend to
the measure to which he (Lord D.) was himself a party.
He regretted, for the sake of the Noble Viscount, that
he then gave way, because the Noble Viscount had been
himself most disorderly when he rose to order.—(Hear.)
For he rose—not when the Noble Member whom he pro-
posed to call to order was speaking—not before the ques-
tion was put from the Woolsack, but when a Member of
their Lordships' House had risen to address them.—
(Hear.) The sense of the House, he perceived, was