The Sun.
London, England, 1813-04-10 00:00:00

1111-"EItIA.L PARILVMENT

.deprire the Company of the East India'
trade. ~vould be essentially.to affect. the pcissibi-
hry, of exercising cheir political Character in India
Thi.; was a part of the :question which he desired
to he anet distinctly, and to receive a distinct con-
sidcration: lie then :pointrd_ the attention of
thtir Lordship; to the Complex nature of other
parts of the general subject, .with respect td
which, in fraMing a .systeM, for the Govcrontent
of riiitish India, the pectiliar habßs, the Manners,

HOUSE OF LORDS,
- • FRIDAY ,• APRIL 9. ~
. A .short.sitting, before thc temporary adjourn.:
merit, took place, in which Bad GROSVENOR took
the irlthsiintl his seat. •
His Lordship presented a•Fetit;on from celthin
Prostestant inhabit:tuts of the. City of Chester,
in favour of the Catholic Claims , •

customs, and even characters of the natives, were

The Bishop of CHESTER took the 'occasion to
observe, that at a very mrn:roils and respectable
Meeting of the inhabitants of the same city, some
time previous, a Petition of a contrary tendency
was voted, 'and by, such a vast majority (so we
understood the Key. Prehtt2). iii the proportion
of more than two thousand and' about .sixty,.
persons.
Earl Gaosvti!,.z.on, in sonic degree-, admitted the
circumstance; sbut , observed, that he understood
ninny of the s'.oatures werethose 'of persons not
the most properly qualified to judge of the sub-
ject,'as ‘vomen and children. The Petition which
he had just presented was numerously, and, he
believed, respectably signed.
The Petition being read by-the Clerk, It was
ordered to lie on the table.
On the resuming of ,the Howie, •the Felons'
Transportation, and the Artificers' Wages Bills,
were read a third time, and passed.
The Additional Customs Doties Bill, To-
bacco and Snuff Excise, and a number of Private
Bills, were brought up from the Commons, by
Sir W. Rowley, J. Graham, 11r. Findlay, and
•oth'ers, and severally read a .first time.
The Earl of DaaNt.uv, inpursuance.of what lie
had stated on a recent evening, proposed that
their Lordships should be summoned for the dis-
cussion of the subject of which he had given no-
tice on an early day after the Eviler recess, and
which, as we could hear his Lordship, was fixed
by the for, the 27th hastaot. The Lords were
ordered to be summoned accordingly.,
Thc Earl of
.L.kttoannAr.F, inntiiadverted upon
some of the returns from the Miot, which had been
Made in consequence olforoiev motions of
.
‘3:rith respect: to it appeared the Otlicers ,
the Mink hail misunderstood the import of 'the
motions, and drawn a line of distinction between
the Dollar Tokens issued from the Bank, and those
-for three shillings and eighteen-pence a piece.
His wish was, that they should he included, as
he considered,thee dollars as a species of tokens ;
and the .Noble. Earl adverted, to a more specific
motion, , including the degrees and quantity of
alloy used, evhich it w !!‘ his intention shortly to
bring forward, with reference to the proposition
of which, ii. Noble, Friend had given notice of his
intention to submit to their Lordshir, after the
holidays, viz. for the appointment.of a Com-'
mittee to inquiFe into the State of the Corrency.
Co the !notion of Lord the reports
in tit! the Commissioners of the Cdstoms and
til.the Lords of , the Treasury, respecting
Oe means of preventing illicit trading, in case the
commerce. of India should be thrmvu open, were
ordered to be laid before the :House;
EAST INrM QUEsvoN..
The Order of the Day, upon ‘vhieli their Lord-
ships were sum mined, being read,
The Marquis WELL-EsLev, in pursuance of his
notice, ruse, to inove for the production of cer-
tain Documents which he- couceived to be es

. _
to he seriously coosidered; .atid pot only with re-
• ferenee to the political, hut the commec,•;.d iw:e-
res.ts of the •question. Irt, the latter they tvould
have. to consider the nature of the most valuable
produce of lnulia, pal tictilarly those of the looms,
usually called piece' goods, With respect to •which
xii norestrained &CC trade would he highly injtt,
riot's not only to the manufacturers, interests of
that, but even to those ~off. this :!country.' That
trade, ex necessitate lei, utast he carried on with a
restricted hand ; anti no Ike principle ,ivitich.
he had laid down. -IThat. trade must .be re-
stricted; it could not be generally Opened : if
' thrown open; the event would be to cause an
injurious competition either in our own, or in'tlie
'Continental markets. With respect to that part•
of the. question, in whH3 the present existence of
the Ctimpany, in its mixed character of :•'•overcign
and merchant, was held ,to. be an anomaly
in reference to the British Constitution, after a
general view of the principles on which the point
was to be considered, the Noble Alarqu is declared,
that, Upon the whole of his view of it,,his opioion
decidedly was, that never, •trmn the very,origin
of Governments doWn to the present period, bad
any Government ever better discharged its duties,
• under the circumstances in which it wits placed.
For, an illustration of that,• let the general state,
of our empire in India be looked to, wherein, not,-
withstanding the various peculiar disadvantages.
the Company had to contend with, a state of real
solid pence had been generally vstablishtd ;
such advances made, on solid foundations, to-
wards a permanent settivment of the landed reve-
nues; a woe{: in which his Noble Friend near him
(Lord Grenville) had Su comesiderable a share
This latter part of the subject, called for a deci-
sive legislative interference, and is Permanent
pyineipleshoitld should be establi4cd with respect
'to it, but not until an adequate ittquiry were gore
into. A syswia, too, for the'" better administra-
tion of justice in India, bad been established
touter the auspicei of the Coropany ; amid it liberal
suirit demonstrated wim.h regard to general con»
section which they might have restrained. •The•
coasting trade of India, uncl the trade to China,
were increased by the Company to such a -degree
as to C11:11.11C then' to ?IIV for their importatious,
and to remit such quantities the etfee;
Nation .of which, in iormer times, was regarded as
so desirable an object. And this.discharge of their
duties, .• with respect to the. alvat:tage •of tl o,e
whomAheygoverned, and the commercial nggran-
• tlisement of the empire ; these benctien4 results
arose from the union of the two Authorities, and
the manner in which they administered them.—
Wintt then could be'more. incongruous, or Inol'q
itb.:urd than the abrogation of suth:a system ?
After t ley; rernatks, as to the sppposed
inipolivy of incite of the projected alterations, lie
pointedly aiiVirt;tl to their application, -iirlth re;
spect,to tite military system, npon, which much
• depended, and he tiotieed the beneficial effects of

sential to the doe illuetratiou tit the important . that system, by whirls Ear/Teat) discipline anti
topics wider the consideration of their Lortishipe' military I hii
Aa_...., W_ eradeelly introduced ailiont.;
Select tons ntttec on the Alf iirs of India. e Ile the sepoys, and whic7h coustituted the ineterial
prefaced the motioe with a speecle of very gyeat diteercuce between those Ito* ti. 4,1 in our service
length—[of which our limits, confine us to a eind that of the
.Natie, 110.„.,..t. et- 'Pill:' ; and lie
brief end general sket&t.) The Nehle Marquis e 1
eprecared any leisty attempts .e.t iteiweition iu
commenced by observing, flea, there never yet that system, us likely to ie.:Attlee the inost srl'iOUS
elikted an intended rCvolutiou in any form of , consequences. T h;:tt part of the queetion shou;d
Government whatever, which, under all the veri- . he coesidered not only with respect to its details,
ons • eircutustauces that had taken place might j but to its principle. These were among the lead.-
'seem to eallfor such, a revolution, that reqttired to ing topics ter the serious consideration of that
be considered or discussed in a inure calm, din- house:,, let a time when the poverument of the
passionate, and deliberative manner, than that to country rame before its Legislature with n plan.
which he was about to call-the attention of their under,which so many great end important changes
bordshipe. There never yet'existed ,v plestion of in it totes tried and experiutented system were nie-
the kind of such great importance ; involving dieited. lie was not present, iehen -these. propn-
points of deeper interest to, the political or moral sitione were first formally communicated to the
government ; to the commercial: pros.perity and House. Ile firmly. believed thet'plati Wits noe.. be-
aggrendisement, not. only .Qt India but of this fore their. Lordships' Select Committee; but he
country, than diet Which would by pia.* ender had to adjure their Lordships monet tatitimislv to.,
the consideration of the House..' Th e ok)jeet, consider before they -in the least degree committed
equally extensive and complete it its maitre WAS themselvesto tin exmoiantion, traced upon the'
prin.
to be considered, with a deep regard to the. j cipleeorlinesof such aplene Theyshoeld first apply
soundest-principles of political economy,' At the to those Reeolutiotts sonic of the general principles
sante time, lie . was fullyeeware, ;teat all abstract which lie had stated, not without, at thesaine tittle,
questions of that kind should be
.considered with an adequate degree of attention to the details that
arise out of
,thein. The Noble Marquis, then
reference to the 'stature of chi; case to which they
were.to ba, applied, , If he-knew toy thing.of the , proceeded. to animadvert upon the tenor ef the'
sciencirof- Political economy, it w'as;that Which. Resolurious alluded to. The first went to express
'above all others required, in its aPplieation, the alt opinom titer the present system of Covent-
tmerriw* e sanction of .praetice and eXtierieneee*" . meat in ladle )eel well answered its purpose ; Mid
Under these., considerations, he most tleprecate •j therefore that it wits to he 'contiteted, except tti'iLit
any attempt to decide the question under. the no- . respect to what •wate afterwards. excepted. This
tioo that the existence .of the It. India Cori • propositien, when compared to What actually fel.
panv,.as combining. the .characters of Sovereigns j Itvei4' presented it strange incongruity. I be
end merchants, were totally anomalotte, and that believed it was eever yet .established as a rule in
therefore such' a .view of it teas unfit for Legisla- any, burr!:, that that which 'was excepted was.
tiro :consideration. A, proposition of that ..kitul not' only net provided for, bnt absolutely set
he strongly, deprecated. The next ' pre-eminent aside and destroyed ! The. second Resolution, as
consideration to which he edverted, . was the trade no exception, .4PPeared,to• hint • tti be Strangely
ni. India, which, as it was held hy the preposere : drawl,. .Ciiiiien.nifitrsit :a i
vsieuntp. trtivie e
itigttes, epee
ttle.c
t is they,.otitiintaiiee
of the new system, was an. unprofitable trade, and . of the 1.11 ie
therefore they might ••teite whet liberty with it . , were subsequently to be modified ; anti the way
they should deeureexpediept. This, npoe merely inwhich •the Cblita 'l'rede , was reserved, had in
comniercial principles, though that particular it something so extraordinarye.es it it were to be
branch of the ttetflic,- separately taken, may- be cousidttili4etdoled.,annoiexacpepieftaijoitim;:
tthuit.e fsacief itt,issl..laise.slottz:
It was,conched• in such terms ne if it
unprofitable. (though. such an assamption Was thiug
yet it should be cots- . !talons. •
and not of the ee
contested and even denied,)
sidered, with reference to. the whole of the coin... l were pert of. the generil rule,
mercial concern. . T hat branch •of the ti:ade, 1 toptjuh ; and-, as if it were used ISIS ly as A memo '
~
though not' so profitable is to induce. a private.! of inducin n„ g. a i.eoia to,the ctn.(
t I Reselution —..e 1
. e
merchant to persevere ineit , yet thee pare of the. Ole shoeld new proceed to
.coneider the third Ite
..
question should - be examined, Ott the principle i eolutien. He-desired dee. it might be issuineu
whether the India trade wits or wos not men. ..tliat the. intention wes.to preseree the Last India
tial to the Compatty as a ir
pat t of the •
genefat ; conipony as the ereem of _Government- 'Si , India ;
`
commercial conce.ro , whether ,it was not ,con-• ill or 'if it was not for the nurnole of. belie,e the
fleeted with an advantageous prosectition of their , .channel of adeenistering the ii.i,,verninentiwisy
trade:-to Chinaitsclfe and, with respect to its im- was it preserved ?. But etking that its an nssninp,
nortatiee, to . that • latter breuch .of the trade,— 1, tion,:be wool(!; procced to shew the operetiou of
Ile spoke from personalpersonalknowledge of the effects tielt Itesolutime, a 4 it Ircatt(Gfrect ti4t India c 014-
or InerriarCs stiggestetl i petty in.-ti lie diecharge its r
prodnced with respect to it, ire oinctionts of the or-
under his admiuistratioa,. and .elfeettetted 'under ' gaq of Gavgrmaerit. ..In the, iiree place, per Sons
Ills. authority. The poesession of the Iltd;:tIl teade Were.to he allowed' to
.go to melts under certain.
eras not only of vital importance:to them,
.het it reetrictionse lie would ask, whether time effects
was . his sincere 'and edeteriniued 'opinion, that -which the intereouree of Dritish adventuress with

the- natives would prodnce, had been•duly,con-
tittered ? if not, by what means were the func-
tions, Of -Government to be preserved to the Com-
pany, While traders Were to be alloWee the bene-
fit of intercourse the no' ives ?. It 11117
possible not to knout that the influx 'of Europeans
to India would he dangerous? not Oaly to the Go-
vernment of the_ Comp. ly, but also to the na-
tives. So strongly did he.feel this, that in I 80-2.. he
hint stated, that it adventurers were aticiw-
ed incliscrimitiately to reStra to our settlements
tlKeffeet Might: be to deprive the
vei",ninept of the power of exercising its flute.;
V,err.act oi being in India, without.a
license from the Oovernment, is eteisidered As a
iie, taut as such is punishable in this country ;
but were the 'persons %vho were to be.„-al;owed
trade to India to be liable to panishmeut, for go-
leg to the interior of the, Country, 'without a b
ceese ?
,lie would suppose qree and respectable
person§ from Bristol, I,iverpoOl; or any of the'
othei: out-ports, who might go for the parpose of
trading to tudia, were persotO, ku.eustotned
to the independence of Boglishouni, to be met with
this law, that it is a crime to be in India without
a license from the Company ? Were t hey ,to be
liable to be turned not of the cou:•try''' tu, inter 7.
Topers To deny them a protection rigithist this
wcinid be to
.encroach upon the rights of British
sill jests, anti to deny thern.-.that independence
which they had aright to claim. • It would there-
fore be necessary to ha.,•e, some Specific enact-
ment on that subject, and io making ;it, how
would it-be possible to proVide for the sitrety of.
the Government, agicint the evil of an iollux of
adventurers ? This was, a consideration deerving
'of much attention.
.111'16s!) 'adveottirslt.s (meta of
necessity ,be allowed to carry their goods to'
any part of the Indian territories. Where they
might have a
.prospect at finding a market ; fur if
-titiB privilege were (;enied thttu, (11)efl.1.1ig. i,f the
trade to.the out-porN w-oet:1 be merely a cieleAcn.
British illerdinatS b.ein lillOWed to go to Uny part •
Of tin: Indian territories, it was inu os,Sible thet
there should trot be many instances of oppression
to the natives; and thisheieg the ease,.how were
the natives to obtain redres,? British sabieets
were only amenable to the Supreme Court of , .
dicature, and were not respcmsible for their crimes
to any of the proi-incial Courts. If a native were
injured by a British merchant, the dril—ichlty:- and ,
the expence of
,prosecuting the' Opptessor before
the Supreme Court, would prevezit the natives in
the -interior provinces frotn having a.ny means of
redress ; and this, of COUrSe, 'would tend to
eie;'ist• 'any disposition to oppress no the part Of
the British, merchants. The security against this,
which was reAed upon; was the authority of PO-
Cotirts lie had alreadv shown that British
!subjects woe not. atnenanie to them, of course
this seettray 'Was of no avail, It was idle to rely
out an article in the treacies With native powers,
which gave to European residents at the.different
Courts of Native Princes a power over European
adVentnrets,-,because this'artiele was not intended
to be applied to British, but to coition adven7
tnrers ;
.more particularly, those fromFranct..---.
The House would recollect,- that this article was
a part of a general Syern which had been edopted
for the expulsion Of French and other• foreign ad-
venturers; although there was no ce...c!,..tion but the
resiiient, halee beee justified in applying it
to British sebjects, in particular instances. fie
himself framed that article, but when Wallet
it, he lead not th,. titc>st diAaut intention of pro-
viding by it agacinst the inclis,:•ritninate ialltrx of
edventurers Ito soch thing 1041 ever.
enteved hut) his .contettedation ; and at the time ,
that the , article was drawn up, all' the powers
Of the Government Were in 101 l vigour, and
would apply in the clearest mariner to any Bri-
tish adventurer who had no lieeue frOin the.
Company.: Ile would next consider the Itesolue-
tion, its it applic:4 to the' akiXed, connitercial,
and political interests of the company. iu In-
dia.- The whole system, as it operated at
that time, operated betlefiCially ; and any thing
which would tend to derange it, would. pro-
dace the very worst consequences. But the
intiux of adventurers, armed with powers,
such. as he had 'mentioned, mud 1 neLessari-
ly produce continual contests' between. them
and the Comp:thy, ill its capacity of sovereip.—
flethen proceeded to express astonishment that
the ports hacl not. been mentioned, where there
'were to be custom-house officers for the support •
of tile Manifest it This,. he thought, certainly.
required explanation. he trade„witii
,the,
lid ist-
erit Islands, so fin from being
,preeltided by the
reSolation,ewas, on the cOntrary, encouraged. If
he was well informed, the effect of Opening the
trade with these island; to the out-ports would be
to,iuterfere with the Company's trade to
The connection between the Chitia trade and
resources of the Company wits so dOe, that they 0
could not be separated without proktcing tile very.
worst Consequences to the political and omelet.-
ehnracter It the Company. Whether the
China trade was of was not profitable,. had no-
tiling to d 9 with the, main qneition. It was highly
impolitic to do what would in, any shape interfere
with the China trade, because it would derange
the pecuniary concerns of the Company, and im-
pair, if not destroy, the means by which
.it ()tight
to beeprbied to discharge its ilobts, it was ne-
cessarytit:it goods imported frin India Ati.ild be
regularly assorted, anti Nvhen the, here brottglit
to London; they were regnierly e!,poved to ape-
tiou ; but it was not rt-eco:ear.,, for Bliss to enter
Into.tlftailS to'prOVe Oita riot only thi! interestS.of
the. Company:and .of the revc,noe would be,
ed, brit miless some restrietiomi Atoeld

1 iniposvd, th.it the interest; of the iti,h
I, 611111.6. s
.wiJuld be by the bi
' creased implotatiou org4)o,ls (>1 to,Aliktfac-
ture.. zidmrinice tol the It-,perta- ••
,hilitv be the ('r4al•iicrcr litatish Hivictiiint,„ it was
it o.slibic *to fi viS, that ..,smug.;c.;llbg u uuld not
et•eas:e(l by the tudiluit-ki ()petting (it the tr,,,,1(.1,)
the ottt,ptii.t.s. The restd,:tit,u Nvhich be:
been ortitigy • ditl 11()I stale whether
at iw
the clitTh:cmlt -"I'le ol'ret,.t::l)u It)tet ietxspt'aisteed to d
tido
ty
was to It.; takcti lrout a deelaratioti, cid euff:Tcni • ';
would certainly•facilitate the, filean3.
i
wished (lei' Lordships ucirtlei extimin'e tin! Maui
feet Act, Under it the officer was satisfied

,examining the nrark of .the 'hoses of the gdod,
„withontapening them,
,iii case ,the -operation of
opening might destroy the goods. in 'consequence
•-of this, many frauds were committed; and, as an
instimee, he stated a case in which a box which
, purported to contain
,tea, on being opened, was
'found to contain Cornwall stones ; this
,he men.,
tinned, to strew that the provisions of the Mani-
fest Act were not sufficient., lie then went on to
state what the effect of opening the trade Would
be upon London,, where large bending. have been
erected, and expenstee establishments formed, un-
der a conviction the trade" Was to remain in the
of the Conatsuy. Were these at once to he
broken daWn, for the purpose of givifig to the'
out-ports bolseis which lie bad aheady statedsirtte.
deltisive ? fie tooted the authority of Lord Mel=
ville in support,of the: present system. On the
subsequent resedetions, 4,5, aed 6,lte :should
not at that time say any thing; . neither was be
aware that they were in anyiway objectionable.—
He had already made sonic observations on the
7th resolutioo in addition to what he had said
upon it, he would observe, that ships built within
our' Indian territories are by law entitled to Bri-
tish, registes„; and also that St.t'cllTlCO froni the ter-
ritories of the Company ere British se:Mien under'
.the true coustruction of the Navigation Act. All
that he wished was, -that these persons shoidd be
informed what were their rights ;' beea4Se
this was nt'eessary for the security of their capital..
Thk led him to notice an Omission in his observ-
ation out the third resolution respecting the ports
which were to be allowed to trade with
Had the Noble Lord considered the 'Warehousing
Act, and inquired bow far its provisions were coin-
llied with i -The trade to Jodie ought not to be
id open to any portointil it Was proved to Par-
liaMent thet it was expedient, and that the port
WAS, fitted for the extension which it required. lie
bad no particular objection to the ninth resolution,
for he Mr it highly prOper that the Itnyal Autho-
rity should have greater influence in the appoint-
Mont of the Governor General of India. Heshould
reserve his Oservations.On.the other • resolutions
to the And. Having delivered his ophOn on the
resolutions, and said on what poiuts he thought
them-obscure, in what parts he thoOght them im-
propor, and calculated to leave the Company shorn
of its power he would prOceed to call the atten-
Om of theiAordsitips to some omissions itt thOse
resolutions. lie had already said that. he would
not separate between the power of the Crown and
that of flue CoMpany; he would have them tonal-
gamaterl and combined. But he thought that the
system required iMprovemeut ; and if improvement
had been applied judiciously and prOperly, it would
have prodneed the very best consequences. He
had always thought that the power of the King
over the country was neither sufficiently distinct,
nor sufficiently active; for it should be so as to in-
-crease the strength and dignity of each. At that'.
time there was distinct responsibility of :the
Ciimpeity, He thought • that there was a' great.
,deficiency in this, that although the commer-
eitil and political capacities of the company were
inieparable, yet lie was far from saying that the
aceounts of these two branches 'might not be se-
parated. Why did not the executive power of the
Crown exerciser its authority in this ? It ought to
be` corrected---it *lido. be corrected, and he thought
it very extraordinary that on notice should have
hem taken of this in the large plan which, was
submitted to Parliament, He next referred to the
subject of -.:he situation of the whole army of India
with reference to the authority of the Company.
He said, that, the real cause of the dissensions be-
tween the Commanders in Chief and the Governor-
General, was.the umlefined relation in which they
subsisted with respect. to each other. Referring to
the Native Troops or. Sepoys„• he thought that
they ought to he admitted to those honours which
they.tnight det,..crve; i»stead of 'being '(as at pre-
aentj excluded from thoie honours to which others
of.the 14,1 MC description ere in other parts admit-
'tett. He akc, censured the omission of any rules
respecting the admission of foreigners to India in
rise of itpeAce, because, in case of a peace, fo-
reigners, to the preserit state of •things, could not
be .preventc.:l 'from •roainiug through our Indian
territories withoet reStrietion. Respecting the
llth ft esolution„ about an Ecclesiastical tow
bliihitjtot India, he had always felt that such an
establishment 'should be placed on ,ft footing of
great dignity, hi order to elevate the British in
the ,ea,tinettion of the natives. He also thooght
that the head of the Ecclesiastical Establishment
If lOUICI stand in the same relation .to the head 'a
thi= Civil Government there us in Great Britain,
-so as to prevent any Collision between the /loth°.
rides. Owing to the late unfortunate occurrences
in India, there might he great delicacy in the im.
mediate. or incautious. forination• of such an esta-
blishment, and unless carefully done it might ex-
cite alarm. He could not separate the considera-
tion of the Ecclesiastical Establishment from ano-
ther extraordinary omission, viz. 'that no provi-
sion had been made for the establiihment of tee
train wits ot education, which seethed' almost in-
separable horn any consideration' f trotters of re-
ligion. With respect to the diffusion of the bless-
ings of Christianity limougst the natives, it ever
it was to be done, it WAS necessary that it sionald
be clone Atsdnaily, And must work its way through
seinivaries of education. It had ever been his
• opinion, that the diffusiim of the blessed doctrines
of the IteligiOn among the natives, was
only to be &eked by, estehlishiqg seminaries of
idncation under our klcelesinstiettl dignitary, and
there, to
,obtain the assistance 'of learned natives
for this desirable purp'oic.' He never knew much
of missionaries, thongh bet had always considered
thew as a le;irned, respeetabre, and distinct body,
and he bad sometimes 'employed a few in the edu-
'cation of young. men"; he had employed sonic of
them in tranallting the Holy Scriptures into the
language of the Natives, a duty which he had eon-
cerveti to be incanibent on him as t.4oiernor,Ge,
He finished a very long speech by,sayiug,
that ilk objection to time plan of Ministers' wets
slics, that while'it held forth to the country, • and
to the wcivlito that Om East , lucius Company Was
be cantiotted in the Government of India, al-
though the plaii did .esstnitially deprive the Coin-
puny of the means of`carrying on the Government,
Eli zu various timr plaints, if it would tot entire-

lv destroy, at least it would impair the commer-
cial interc,t Of the Company, while it held 'out to
British merchants deluive hopei, which could
never b realised. fie moved for the production
of certain parities to' illustritte what be had
and that those papers. should be referred to the
consideration of the select Committee on the af-
fairs of the East India Company, then sitting ;
and after the Committee should have considered
these papers, he should think himself at liberty
to submit to the House any farther considera-
tions relative to, their proceedings on that sub-
ject.

The Earl. of 'BUCKiSIGHASISHIRa rose, hi the
situation in which he stood, it would be a neglect
of duty were he to remain silent. Something of
personal allusion had been mettle by the Noble
Marquis to the conduct of Ministers;
,in leaving •
brought for Ward this vulva. without _laying snfii,
cleat information before the House. Such an oh
--
serration appeared rather extraordinary, when it
was known that with a view to inforniatum a mo-
tion had been made two years back for the Purpose
of examination. The Commitkee appointed for
that purpose the Noble Margaii" never' took_the
trouble of. attending. To nil be had said upon the
ability with which the Government ot. India had
heel, conducted, he gave full assent. But he never
could admit the charge against Ministers, that they
broUght the House unprepared to the question.--
It Was jidt fair to argue upon it as an Act of Par-
-Hutment,- The Noble Marquis had dwelt at much.
length upon the dangers of an unrestrained inter-.
course with India ; but did the East India Com-,
patty themselves admit this danger in the permis-
sion of private trade, so far as they allowed tt ? The
Noble Marquis himself, at one time, seemed to,he
of t different: opiion, and after expressing such
sentiments would endeuy(>ur to trig,hteo them out
cut the course theY`tato(-,,t6 piersue, of placing
British merchants iirelikeiime, footing with:thp
Americans. i he-AMOlgans carried on a trade to
India, amounting to 1,465,205/. Ile would now
ask &that Would not he a greit relief to the
fish Merchants. lie did not see how it Was 'Ms-
sible to resist such an application. fie would not
follow the Noble Marquis through all he had said
upon the danger of increased adventure. 'The
Noble 'tart:lois spoke mach upon the system of
manifests. If he bad material objections to it, be
ought to have proposed one which he considered
more eligible. With-respect to smugghag, he be-
lieved it was .now carried owl() greater extent.by
the officers tit • the Corapany than it could he un-
der the proposed change. He was prepared, when
the occasion Offered, to state his reastms why the
system proposed was preferable to the present one.
After a long speech, the greater part of which we
could not collect, from the low tone in which the
Noble Earl spoke, he concluded by saying, that if
it was his conviction the Company could not sub-
sist without such part of their, commerce as it was
propihsed to take from them, he should be the last
to agtee to it. •
Lord - GeeNvt4,e was happy that an oppOr-
tunity was once more given for dismissing this
subject; and gsatetul for the light that-had been
thrown on it by the Noble Marquis (Wellettletl.
Until their pin was regularly proposed- by fro..
vernment, lie felt it difficult to make any
vation upon it. He much doubted the practica-
bility of the Company preserving in Almon their
commercial and political character. It was true
that with propriety, they could not refuse to Bri-
tish Merchants what 'Was allowed to the Mei-
chunte4 of other countries. The question was;
whether they were to 'continue-10 preserve the
commercial privileges of the Company for the
sake of her political government. Their first fluty
was to look to:the prosperity of the country for'
which they legislated. The inconvenience of
uniting the two characters in the Company svas
too obvious to need veinal-2.5. As, to theirpoliti-
cal power, they were before deprived of it in
great measure by the Act of 1'784. ,As •to-„ the
trade, the Company admitted that it was a losing
one. He thought nu private merchants could
suceesifelly cutter into competithiu with the East.
India Company in-the trade to India. The Com-
pany. Who now carried on that trade at a loss,
would carry it Cin at a stil greater loss in order
to beat the private merchant. He wished they°.
'Meal and eisnimerciel
power of the Conitiairy to
be divided. The treasury and the counting-house
in Bengal to he separated de ft:do. This would
occasion nog inconvenience of moment,• and he
could see no reason why the East India Company,
in their character of merchants, shouldnot be put
on a footing with other meri,hants, and obliged to
make their remittances in hills ,olexchenge. The
revenue of our Indian territory ought not to becol-
leeted in kind. it- could not be so collected with-
oat thcinost cruel 'onpressilon ; and Parliament,
therefore, would not do its duty it it did not guard
against such an evil. Ile' admitted it would he
dangerous to .the Constitution -to give the -pa-
tronage of lndia,to Ate- Crown, and un this much
stress had been laid by the Company, but he-con-
' tended it did not follow, because it ought not
c to be given to ,the Crown that it ought to he
continued. in the hands of the East Jodie Cum-.
puny. it ,might he. entrusted to other hands,
under such regulations, as should make it impos-
sible to convert it to' tiny political. putpose., It was
not necessary to the situation of our poor Con-
- atitiation that the East India Company. should eon-
' tinue isf,the Administtation of the Governmeist of
wished to know, when it was pro-
posed to throw open the losing trade of India,
Why'British subjects were to be excluded from
the China trade, from which we could not ex..
.elude Foreigners who were seen to be successfud,
competitors of the East India Company ?.
claiming all narrow prejudices, lie called, for a
free 'trade. This he thought. necessary to the
prosperity of our Indian Empire, to promote
.which was their duty, a duty which they owed to
God and,to themselves. If it were necessary to
continue the Civil Admiuistration of India•ln- the
hands of the East India Company, the army ought
to !Tutuila to them. They ought to be }needed
its, inseparably connected with: the discharge. of
:their political duties. The Officers 'of the Indian
army ought to rank with the Genera Staff of the
English army. Ile entirely disappresved of the
pretent system Of educating boys toe:lndian ser.

viee. He thought, instead of being so educated as
to make hint feel little attached to this country, it
would be better that he should be, brought up in
that way which would cause hint to' carry the
strongest mid most interesting recollections of
England. This 'was, a wafter on which* the Ex -
ctitive Government ought not to be left to decide.
Parliament ought to interfere, suppress time East
India Company's College at Hertford, and, suffer
no -one to go in an official capacity to lutlia, who
had t at received his education at one of our pub-
lic schools. The Comany's establishments, of a
nature similar to that which he had mentioned,
ought also to be put down. This subject, he
hoped, would be: fully investigated.
Lord LivEnroot. agreed, that the first object
for their. consideration teas net the ad. antages
which England might'derive ftotti India, not whe-
thertrade could he carried on More beneficially
for this country under one system or another, but
circumstanced as we were with respect to fifty
millions of our fellow-criatures, wltel systent of
Government would most -contribute to their hap-
piness and 'prosperity. He agreed that taking the
patronage of India out of the hands of the East
India , Company, would not necessarily place it
at the dispo*al of the Crown.' The Governmeot -of
Jodie, front 1784 up to the present time, bad been
most advantageously carried on by the Company.
He knew of no colony in ancient or modern• his-
tory, which had to boast of such a-Government.
The present system, with respect to the trade to
India, he contended it was impracticable to
maintain, under existing circumstances. A new
era had arisen in the world, which made it impos-
;sible. A great change had taken, place front the
train of events, and they must shape their course
accordingly. The question --(as had been said by
his Noble Friend) was not whether they should
exclude all atiVeriturers front participation in the
, trade to the East Indies, but whether they should
exclude British merchants from that trade which
- they conld not keep from foreigners,. It was said,
"-mach damage wont& result from the unrestricted
admiSsioa 'of Europeans into lodia. The Peti-
tioners for the Opening of the trade did not ask
to• ba admitted without restrictions all they
claimed was to be-put on a footing with the Ame-
ricans. The opening of the trade to India pro-
,' tnised to prove beneficial to' those who might en-
gage in-it, as it had been seen an advantaeons
trade to India had been carried on by the Ameri-
cans, and by private English merchants. The
. benefit of the trade to India formed, however, but
a small portion of the adVantages he anticipated
front the measure in contemplation. The new
sources of trade to other parts, which it wotdd be
likely to open to us, if the precious golden oppor--
. timity were notiteglected, be thought of much
greater importance, which, if we were bound by
narrow prejudices, would, in all probability,
fall into other bands. He, however, was of opi-
nion the China trade ought not to be touched, as
makingau alteration with re3pect -to that, might
risk the loss of it altogether. In, the one case (that
with respect to the trade to India), -no pre,sent
advantage was derived from the commerce carried
on, a/ greet advantage might possibly be derived
frOni throwing it into new hands ; in the other
case (that respecting the China trade), we were
in possession of a great positive advantage,, which
Haight he lost, if a change were attempted. To
the objections urged on the ground that it would
afford great facilities to smuggling, he attached
little importance, as the Itiver,ifforded facilities
for illicit trade, greater, in a tenfold degree; than
any other port. lle saw' no reason to think an
advantageous tra4e to India might not be carried
on ; and he trusted Parliament would be able el-
feCtually to guard against the evils which had, been
anticipated.'
The question was then put and negatived, And
the souse adjourned at One o'Clork th.s morn-
ing.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
vittrux, APRIL 9.

A new 'Tilt- was ordered for the borough of
St. Masers, in the room'ot Mr. W. Shipley, who,
since his election, had accepted of the office of
Steward of the Hundred of East Hendred.
On the motion of Mr. Aldermen A..rxtus, it
was agreed to that no new Writ should be issued
for 'Weymouth till Thursday next.
Sir W. Starr moved for and obtained leave.to,
brittg in a Bill for the hetter tegulation of Eccle-
siastical Courts in England, and for the more easy
recovery of Churoh.rates and Tithes. The Right
Hon. Gentleman prefaced his motion with a taw
general observations on the state of these Courts.
on their history, and on the inconveniences which
existed in their constitution. The object of
his Bill (which is the same lost by the late dis-
solution of Parliament), was to abolish ex-
communication generally, note only as a mesne
process, but as an ultimate ultimate se.utence,
except in cases of great offence. In thest, be held
that it would be impossible to do away With this
power in the Reeks iastical Courts, as every Church
must have the ability to exclude univorchy mem
bers from among them ; and there were prunes
(incest from eiiample), whiLli were not amenable
to the common laws, mut so destructive to society,
that there most be a punishment, of force enough
to repress them, Another object of his Bill, would
be to lessen the .nintiber•of minor Courts, which
had the pater of excommunicating; mid lastly.,
to, devise a more, easy manner fur the recovery of
Church rates and Tithes, tire present mode of re-
covering small sums being oppressive, from the
magnitude of the expellee incurred.
Aftkr a few words from Mr. D. GIDDY, lease
was given, and the Bill brought-in and read a first
time. it was ordered 'to> be printed, and to be
read a second time on the 28th.
The Exchequer Bills Bill was read a 24 time,
and committed for Monday.
P. GRENVELL- moved for copies of the
papers enclosed in a latter from the Governor Geea
neral of India, to the Court of,Direetors, of date
2cl Nov. 1807 ; the answer of the Direators„and
various other documents—Leave given.
Sir H. MONTOOMEIty, in consequence of tire
production of these papers, which would require
a considerable time to print and consider, post"

1,0ND0N,%, Pcnti,tl THOMAS
wonn,
of No, se rand; and rubliami by WILLIAM AIIMIGER S< StHPS, South Multivioitti•
St t shrr.sui Owes, NO4 11,12; Strand; where ddrentifelnentS; Orders ft;r the Popab 40tterctier the:.Editor,Ae. (post ipaiti)