The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-13 00:00:00

THE SCOTCH BILLS.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he wished to state the
course the Government intended to adopt with respect
to the two Bills which affected Scotland, the Registration
and Marriage Bills; and he had now to state that, after
the discussion the other day, and the opinion expressed
by the House in regard to the sentiments of the people
of Scotland upon them, that it was not the inten-
tion of the Government to proceed with these
Bills during the present session.—(Hear.) He thought
he might state, at the same time, that the speech

of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. M‘Neill),
whom he he did not see in his place, had convinced him
that the marriage law of Scotland was or-j,'etiote,ble, and
that it was very desirable that it bhould Ritered. He,
therefore, begged to move the orders of the day iu re-
spect to these Bills 'in order that they might be dis-
charged.
The orders were accordingly read and discharged.
INCU.sIBER ED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL intimated that he did not in-
tend to proceed with this Bill until Monday, several
Hon. Gentlemen having intimated that they could not
attend at twelve o'clock.
The Bill was accordingly postponed until Monday.
JUDGMENT (IRELAND) BILL—ESTATES
LEASING (IRELAND) BILL.
In reply to Captain PECH ELL,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL insinuated that he intended
to proceed with these Bills at twelve to-morrow.
SMALL DEBTS ACT.
Lord D. STUART inquired when the Attorney-
General intended to proceed with this Bill. Would it
come on to-night?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he intended to
bring it on as soon as possible. If possible, he would
bring it on to night.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. ANSTEY moved far an address to her Majesty,
on the subject of certain illegal ordinances or acts of
Council for the taxation of the people of Van Diemen's
Land, the attempts of Lieutenant-Governor Sir W.
Denison to intimidate the Judges of the Supreme
Court of that Island into declaring such ordinances
or acts to be legal, and the grievances complained
of by the colonists of that island in their peti-
tion presented last year to her Majesty, and printed
by order of this House; and that her Majesty may be
pleased to direct the local authorities in future to respect
the independence of the judicial functions of that Court,
and also to signify her disallowance of any ordinance or
act subsequently passed by the said Lieutenant-Go.
vernor in Council, for giving to such illegal ordinances
or acts the force of law. This motion, he said, involved
as much the conduct of Earl Grey, as it did that
of Sir William Denison, because he had neglected to
advise her Majesty with respect to the memorial which
had been transmitted by the inhabitants of the colony
to the Government of this country. One of the charges
in the memorial was, that the Governor, Sir W. Denison,
had interfered, by private solicitation, with the Judges
of the Supreme Court, in inducing one of them to absent
himself for eighteen months on full salary, in order to
enable the Government to appoint a successor who
would give a decision in favour of the Crown in re-
ference to certain actions which were then pending be-
tween her Majesty and some of her subjects in the colony.
He would conclude simply by moving the resolution by
way of amendment of which he had given notice.
Mr. HAWES was understood to say—but was
very indistinctly heard amid the buzz of conversation
in the House—that Sir William Denison, the Governor
of Van Diemen's Land, in what he had done in the mat-
ters referred to by the Hon. Member (Mr. Anstey)
had acted entirely in conformity with the
opinion of the law officers of the Crown.
Sir William Denison then
,passed an Act through the
House, which was the 11th Victoria, which had come
home; and there was a peculiarity about it, namely,
that though it had come home, and had not yet
received the sanction of her Majesty's Government,
all proceedings under it were valid. He was unwilling
to do anything which should reflect on Sir William De-
nison, as with one exception, and that would be better
described as an error of judgment, there was no fault to
be found with him. On what ground was it then that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman made this motion? There
was no other point in this case to which he wished to
call the attention of the House.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether her Ma-
jesty's Government refused to lay upon the table the
letter conveying the disapprobation of the Colonial
Secretary to the Governor. It was fortunate
that in such distant colonies there were independent
men, and he believed that judges had always maintained
a character for independence. If the Governor had
done wrong in interfering with Judge Pedder,
he thought that all the circumstances of the case ought
to be laid before the House. He could not think that
the House would be sati•fied with less than a disavowal
of such conduct, coupled with an introduction of all
the documents relating to this point.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he thought the Government,
in dissuading the House from calling for these papers,
was right, as he could not see any advantage to arise
from their production. He wished to observe that all co-
lonial judges had not that entire independence of the
executive which they had in this country. He defended
the conduct of Sir William Denison in his government
of the colony, which entitled him to the gratitude of the
House, which ought not to do more in this case than the
Secretary for the Colonies thought requisite, particu-
larly as ample justice had been done to the Chief Justice.
On these grounds he was prepared to support the reso-
lution of the Government.
Mr. P. WOOD said if the case of Mr. Justice Pedder
was to pass unnoticed, the position of a judge in a colony
was not an enviable one for an honourable man to occupy.
The misfortune in this case was that the Governor was
a military man, and it seldom happened, in that case,
that such a Governor and the judges went on amicably
for three years together. The military. officer
considered any disobedience on the part of the judge as
an act of mutiny.—(Hear, hear.) When the judges in
this case pronounced these ordinances illegal, the Go-
Governor declared there was only one course open to
him, and that was to suspend the judges. Judge Mon-
tague was removed far being in debt, and yet the gentle-
man who succeeded him had 25 judgments recorded
against him, and so great a hardship had the colonists
felt that removal to be, that they sent home a remon-
strance against it. He (Mr. Wood) had no feeling per-
sonally towards the Governor, but for the administra•
Lion of justice and as owing to the character of the
Judges, there ought to be a public reparation made for
the injury the Governor committed on the judges of
Tan Diemen's Land.
Captain HARRIS charged the Hon. and Learned
Member, who spoke last with attributing personal mo-
tives to Sir W. Denison, but he entreated the House not
to form an opinion of that earnest and distinguished
officer from what they had heard from the Hon. Member
who received his statements in his brief.
Mr. ROEBUCK cared not where his Honourable and
Learned Friend found the facts he stated, for the ques-
tion was, were they true? He granted that the judges
at first certified the ordinance laid before them for their
opinion to be legal, but when the question was raised,
and the matter discussed before the legal tribunals, of
which they were judges, they decided according to their
oaths, and against the opinion they had previously given.
The Governor then interfered and removed them, which
he denounced as mostarbitrary and unconstitutional. The
Governor was a military officer, and he agreed with
his Honourable and Learned Friend, when he said
that the frame of mind of such men, accustomed, as
they were at all times to command, rendered them ex-
tremely unfit to be constitutional governors of any
solony. On the present discussion the Governor wrote
a letter to Mr. Justice Pedder, telling him it would be
extremely convenient for him if he absented himself for
18 months. The Hon. and Gallant Officer stood up to
defend his profession, but was the character of the
judges of no importance? What would have been said
of the Government at home, if, when the Lord Chief
Justice of England differed from that House some
years ago, they wrote him a letter, telling him it would
be expedient for him to go to Italy for a year and a
half?—(Hear, hear.) But then, said the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cambridge, the judges in
the colonies were not like the judges at home. But why
should they not be so, seeing that the lives and proper-
ties of the colonists were at their disposal?—(Hear,
hear.) And, if they were not what they ought to be,
shame on those who were the cause of it. He asked the
Noble Lord at the head of the Colonies, was that the
way to treat new colonies, and if it be not the first of
their duties to watch over and guard the administration
of justice? It was not on the former conduct of the
Governor they were to decide, but on that one act, and
in his opinion he had interfered with the pure adminis
tration of justice in one of the most important colonies.
Mr. E. DENISON should not enter into the merits of
the question at either side, for it did not become him to
do so, but this he might be allowed to observe, that he
deeply regretted what had taken place. The question,
however, before the House was, whether a certain dis-
patch should be produced, and he, for his own part, was
most anxious that it should be done, for he had no doubt
that the Gallant Officer referred to would be found to
have discharged his duty on this, as on former occasions,
with integrity and honour.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it ... •.. . 72
Majority —4B
Mr. lIUME wished to ask whether the Government
had any objection to produce the dispatch sent out by
Earl Grey, disapproving of the Governor's conduct?
Under any circumstances he should move for its pro-
duction.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that his Noble Friend
at the head of the Colonial-office communicated to Sir
W. Denison the disapprobation of the Government, but
considering the difficulties under which the colony was
placed, he did not think there was any use in giving more
publicity to that disapprobation; he thought the better
course would be not to produce the dispatch, and should,
therefore, resist the motion.
Mr. ANSTEY asked how it was the Government
could refuse the production of the dispatch for which
the Hon. Member for Montrose moved, when, on the
25th of April last, they consented to the production of
the correspondence between Governor Grey and Sir W.
Denison, on the taxation of the colony, and the removal
of Judge Montague.
Mr. HAWES said that had nothing to do with Earl
Grey's dispatch expressing disapprobation at the removal
of Judge Pedder.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that in a population so dan-
gerous and disorganized as that in this colony, the Go-
vernor should be above all suspicion; and he thought if
the dispatch was not produced, he could not safely, under
the hidden censure of the Government, efficiently dis-
charge his duties.
SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The order of the day was then moved for the House
to resolve itself into Committee of Supply, and the
Speaker left the chair,

Mr. HUME hoped that the Ordnance Estimates might
stand over till Monday, till it could be ascertained
whether the report of the Committee now sitting would
be ready this session, which wuuld enable him to spe:.k
from facts and figures.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that it would be only
fair to give the Government time to consider the evi-
dence taken before the Committee, when it was com-
plete, which they would not have an opportunity of
doing, if the subject was to be brought before the House
immediately upon the presentation of the report. Ile,
therefore, could not consent to the postponement of these
vtilinntea.

, O. the vote of 361,895/ fur defraying :he exrenses
pay all rwanees of the o:dnariee and Regi-
n, ering departreeete,
Mr. HERRIES e}id that the home should be ec•
queinted wish the evil; ece t :ken. and see the report of
the Corr moree before agree jug to this vote.
M 3. CO IiDEN 110P,:(1 the Noble Lord would not
per,ia,t in f rrcieg on this vote for the °id, ante Esti•
ma es, as the report of the Cenrmittce would be in the
hands of Members by Saturday next. The House
should have sorer, kimele,lge of the recommendations
of the Committee before being called upon to vete this
money. He should oppose going into Committee on
these estimates.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Noble Chairman of the
Committee had told him that the report would be ready
before this day, and, therefore, he had fixed these esti-
mates for to. day. With regard to the propositions of
the Committee, the Government must have time to be
able to say whethqr the proputitions of the Committee
should be recommended for adoption or not. It would
be attended with great inconvenience further to postpone .
these estimates. The Government must be responsible
for these votes, and they ought to have time for full con-
sideration.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the report of the Coin- .
mittee was presented that evening, and the report and
evidence would be printed, and in the hands of Members
on Saturday next ; but he thought that, considering the
numerous topics that must arise for discussion upon the t
reading of the report, the House and the Government
should have the fullest opportunity for consideration, 1
and he therefore thought, upon the whole, that it would
ri
be better to allow the Governmeut to proceed with'these ;
estimates on their own responsibility.
Mr. HUME was surprised at the conclusion which
his Right Hon. Friend had come to. The allegation
that the Government were ignorant was erroneous, for
the Hon. and Gallant Member for South Staffordshire j
(Colonel Anton) had been present, and no doubt was
fully informed of all that had taken place. He (Mr.
Hume) had not considered the report and evidence, and
how seould he be called upon to vote upon this impor-
tant subject in the dark? Was it decent, after five
months spent in this inquiry, that it should be passed
by without notice? He moved that the Chairman report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. FOX MAULE said, that on Tuesday each Mem•
ber of the Committee was in possession of the revised
report. If this° estimates were to be discussed on Mon-
day on that report, it was doing neither justice to the
House or to the
eeGovernmentur , as they could not p
co ossibly
have time betwn Saturday and Monday to nsider
the voluminous evidence taken by the Committee.
Mr. lIUME said, the proposition of the Government
was, in fact, to vote the money first and take the discus.
sion afterwards. It would be tar better to drop the farce
altogether, and vote the whole sum demanded in a lump.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served that the question really at issue was, whether the
postpenement would put the House in possession of full
' information or not. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it
was desirable it should be in possession of such infor-
mation, but they could not have both tne report and the
evidence upon which it was founded for very many days
to come, and looking at the late period of the session he
put it to the House whether it would not be better to
take the estimates now before the House into considers-
tion, and to give the Government full time for the contd.
deration of the Committee during the recess, in order
that next session they might be prepared to propose such
; estimates as in their judgment were necessary, and could
be undertaken on the responsibility of a Government.
It was clear that by merely postponing the discussion
until Monday next they would not be any more prepared
to discuss the question of prospective reductions than
they were at the present memeet.
Mr. BERRIES said there was one important question
occurred to him—were they to abandon all hope of
effecting any reductions during the present year ?-••
(Hear, hear.) Surely the Government, with its know-
ledge of what took place before the Committee, would
not say that they were unprepared to make some reduc-
tions at least. If that was the case, then he felt that
the grounds for postponement became stronger. If they
had the recommendations of the Committee in their
hands the House might perhaps save some money to the
public before next session, and if they could do so it
would no doubt give satisfaction. If, on the other hand,
he was told that it was quite hopeless to expect any re-
duction, he would ask why the Committee was ever sr
pointed?—(Hear, hear.) Why they did not vote the
estimates at the commencement, instead of postponing
them to the end of the session ?—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL replied to the question, whether
no hope of reductions could be held out during the pre-
sent year? Certainly not. When the Government had
seen and considered this report they might be able to
propose some immediate reductions. But he was sur-
prised that the Right Hon. Gentleman, with his know-
ledge of the public business, should suppose that a re-
port, which recommended the reduction of 1,300,0001 in
the cost of a public department, could be adopted or dis-
missed by the Government, without the fullest consi-
deration and inquiry. To propose any sudden reduction
would not be the proper course. At present he knew
nothing whatever of one single reduction that had been
proposed by the Committee, nor could he promise that
he would be prepared to make any on Monday.
Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH said the Noble
Lord stated he did not know of a single reduction pro-
posed in the report. He would give him one. It was
proposed to stop the military works at Bermuda, Mall'
ritius, and the lonian Islands, and if the report was be-
fore the House, founded as it was upon the evidence of
Sir George Grey, and other officials, he was satisfied that
the reasons for that reduction were so irresistible that it
would be sustained by the House.
Sir JA viES GRAHAM reminded the Committee
that the House had already voted the number of men
which in the majority of cases governed the force re-
quired to be kept up by the Ordnance. There were only
two items—stores and new works at home and in the co-
lonies—with which they could interfere; but it would
not be prudent to do that without full inquiry. The
Hon. Baronet (Sir William Molesworth) had referred to
three places where the Committee recommended the sus-
pension of military works. The saving estimated was
30,0004 Well, nothing could be easier than when they
came to that vote to move the reduction, and the Roe.
Secretary to the Ordnance, as a member of the Com'
mittee, would either be able to agree to, or to show rea'
sons against it.—(Hear, hear.) There were other re.
duciions he should feel inclined to propose.—(Hears
hear)—but he did not think they should urge the Go-
vernment to make reductions before they had time to
consider them.
Mr. COBDEN really scarcely understood the Right
Hon. Baronet. He deprecated rashness, and yet be
called upon the House to vote some millions of money
without information which would be in the hands of
Members in two day s.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. •
Baronet told them there were 10,000 questions in the
Blue Book, but he ventured to-say that not one Member
would read these 10,000 questions, and many would not
open it. But the report of the Committee was an able
summary of these questions, for which they were deeply
indebted to the Noble Chairman—(Hear)—and embo-
died the principal evidence on which the report wag
founded; and it they proceeded, now that report bad
been presented, to vote money without reference to it,
he could only say that it would tell trumpet-tongued
the country that which it already strongly suspected,
that the House, instead of being the guardian of the
public purse, was merely a screen for Ministerial ex-
travagance,—(Cheers.)
Colonel ANSON, after referring to some circum-
stances which had transpired in the Committee, said
the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) seemed to use one
language out of the House and another in the House.
He implored the House to proceed with the estimates.
He was there ready to answer any objections that might
be made to the estimates now before them, and be was
sure the Government would lose no time in considering
the recommendations of the Committee.
Mr. COBDEN complained as to the alleged difference
of language that the circumstances had altered. The
report had been finished sooner than they expected, and
that changed the position entirely. Now that report
was ready, he repeated that it was most marvellous and
incomprehensible that they could not wait till Monday.
Mr. SPOONER expressed his determination, if the
Hon. Member for Montrose divided the Committee, to
support him. He could not at all understand why, after
waiting all the session for this report, and delaying the
estimates for it, they should now be called upon to vote
them, when the report was at last presented, without
having time to read it. Above all, he was surprised to
hear that the Government were ignorant of its re-
commendations, because he supposed its members would
have communicated with the Cabinet as to its pro-
ceedings.
Mr. F. MAULE assured the Hon. Member that he
had not felt himself at liberty as a member of the Com-
mittee to'communicate to the Cabinet the proceedings of
that Committee.

Mr. SPOONER replied that the business of Govern-
ment might be carried on in a way totally different from
every other, but if a committee was appointed by part-
ners to investigate the state of their affairs in ordinary
lire, no doubt the partners would ask the members of
the committee what they were doing from time to time,
and what was the state of pirticular accounts.— (Hear.)
Colonel RAWDON deprecated any further delay, as
uncalled for, besides making that House take part of the
Execu ive Government, instead of confining itself to its
legitimate functions. He heped the Hon. Gentleman
would not persist in his motion.
Mr. HILDYARD said that if this Committee had
been appointed in hostility to the Government, he could
have understood the arguments that had been urged for
voting the estimates that night without waiting for its
report.—([fear, hear.) But, on the contrary, having
been appointed by the Government, be could not com-
prehend shy they watched its recommendations with
such jealousy. The Noble Lord said he was ignorant
of its recommendations. The Hon. Member for Perth
(Mr. F. Maule) said he had not felt at liberty to com-
municate them. Well, then, the Government was in
ignorance of the report. Surely, then, the Noble Lord
himself should not take the responsibility of proposing
these estimates while ignorant of the report.— (Hear.)
Then, was it just to the House to ask them to vote in
ignorance, or, on the other hand, to suppose that they
would run to the conclusion of the Committee without
ji:dt,ring for themselves? He thought not. All he bad
heard convinced him that the Hon. Member sht uld per-
sist in his motion, to which he would give his cordial
suppor', because he did not think that the public money
should be voted away in this inconsiderate manner,
merely to allow Members to get into the country a few
days sooner.—(Cheers )
After a few words from Mr. PLUMPTRE,
Mr. W. BROWN suggested that tney might go on
with their estimates, and then the Members of the Com-

mittee in their speeches could explain the reductions ihat
had been recommindeit.--(Oh.)
Mr. DUNCAN could not agree to that proposal. If
the House was to take its opioion Irom the Committee,
it might as well adjour❑ at once, and leave tLe Commit'
tee to do all the work itself. It ever there was an ar-
gument in favour of the shortening of Fathom* it

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surely might he found in the present discussion, and
,as
they had abundaliec of Incs'ness on the river the Ifouie darinu the evening, the, l, c,,,lid be no difficulty
in adjuurnis.g to occupy
till Montisv. th, cc,nsideration of the Ordnance estimates
M. lITh,IE said his object iii wishing the adjou rl-
rntut was
estimates. to get public opinion to bear upon the.e.
Air. A. SMITH was of opinion that, under all the
circumstances, the consideration of the estimates should
be proceeded with.
Mr. HENLEY ,aid the question urged was not whether.e
all the recommendations of the Committee were tob
complied with, but whether the House should not be
to
permitted to see the report before they were asked vote the estimates; and, by seeing that report, bethere-
fore
in a better position to come to the discussion.
sal o
Lord J. RUSSELL said the very essence of the propo.
f the Lion. Member (Mr. Hume) was, that the House
having seen the report on Monday, should, without
taking the opinions of the Government, proceedatonc,c.
to make considerable reductions. Now he (Lordd
Russell) would remind Hon. Members, that in the
pre-
sent Year there had been reductions made, to the amountneon.
of seven or eight thousand pounds, in the navy,h
That wasl the
sequence of the Committee of last year. proper course to pursue, and that was the properTa answer
to
those who argued that unless the reductions were
now made the recommendations of the Committee
were
of no use.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, . Mr. V. SMITH stated it to be his opinion that the
report of the present Committee was intended to act on
the
The estimates of the succeeding year.
House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hume's m0ti0n....43
Against it
Majority against the motion 37
On being re admitted, we found
to the
Mr• J. B. SMITH addressing the House. He appealed
Noble Lord whether he could not accede to the
reasonable request of postponing the estimates till Men -
- tlaY. He thought such a postponement was only reason-
able, and he should therefore move that the Chairman
should leave the chair.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had postponed the Ord-
nttnee estimates till July, and the report of the Committee
not
'lavi
agon een now made, no reason why they should
ce proceed to the considerition of the estimates.
Re had stated on last Friday that he would in Com-
Initte of Supply go on with the Ordnance estimates that
seeg; and further postponement, considering the busi-
ss to be done, might make a delay of ten days or a
fortnight at the present time of the session.
Mr. lIILSIE submitted that there need be no u n ne ceos -
Intl' delay, as other estimates could be taken instead f
those of the Ordnance. He thought there vvas adeter-
Itination on the part of the Government todeprive them
or the benefit of the mass of evidence whichhadbeen
taken. He agreed with the Right Hon.
Baronet the
Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) that they must
get public opinion to bearb,. for h
e tahjeck item,geteouldfor in
reduc-
tions made. Now,
therewasthe
stance, which be thoughthad been unwarrantably in
creased of late years; but
how wore theeytht;
advantage
tapnutbalgiec
°Pinion to bear, if they were deprived
nf referring to the report?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
firmed what had been said by the Noble Lord (Lord J.
114401), that notice had been giveit that the Ordnance
estimates would be taken that evening.
, Mr. HASTIE wished to be informed by his lion.
-rriend (Mr. Hume) whi they there was any objection to
ethe particular vote proposed fur their consideration;
k'ecause, if there was not, he did not see why the vote
before them might not be proceeded with.
Mr. lIUME said he was glad the question had bees
it;sked- He had objected before to the number of m n
ill the artillery department. In the report of 1828, it
:1 aPeeared that the number of men in the artillery was
200, whereas now, in the time of peace, and when thend
that
of the country was so conspicuous, they fon Hat the artillery had increased the number of the men
ti°B fourteen or fifteen thousand, and yet the report of
28 called on the Government to lessen the force.—
(Hear, hear.) In answer, therefore, to the question of
under sAurel.eLreeiieroceueNTheatilosyttLabncc es,
his Hon. Friend, he would say that it was impassible,
to go into the vote without
mattertiaviAlng report of the Committee.
said that he did not think that a
hastily, $e importance should be carried so
shouldY. leavee "rteetil concurred that the Speaker
been to the chair, and regretted that he had not
mostlin the
House on the last division, for he thought it
tnheaTrotirlteeuhnthreearseopnearbtlevrtahsatgitrbeins
tvoottebeshmeuemldbebree.brought on
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
sub. ere could not be found any better opinion on this
th subject on Monday than at present, for he did not think
at an
possibll
Ai, liYußood would be gained by such a delay.
ME protested against this—it was the worst
of the example to show the country. If the argument
thing,
tUthwaerinceltlnorproofvtehe Exchi quer were good for any-_
they bthat they ought to do nothing till
let It het° shotwhole of the evidence before them. Then,
tlittnegsstheresc'; theylet them wait until they could do the busi-
i_ of the country in a proper manner. Instead of talk-
should do business.—(" Hear, hear," and
hilighter-) 43 Members of that House had voted with
bees of
artid he sheuldbein a majority if the mere Mem-
and :o,the Government had walked out of the House
t voted
Air. sie, •
Roe. e, GONER said that though he voted with the
Ge„"ieralser for Montrose, he should now tell the Hon.
en '"eraen that he ought to submit to the decision of the
—4Jority.
kr, lipv,,,,
Whitt w '--"eirex DRUMMOND could not understand
Inino_. as meant by constitutional government if the
• ritY were not to submit to the decision of the
majority.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
Fur reporting progress
~
• ... ... ••• Majority
—69
•• ••• •••
sidedM r. HUME said that though the majority had so de-
rreport's
he still should persevere in repeating the motion
1 porting progress, which he now begged again to
make. He saw everywhere a demand for economy—
,theey had spent five months seeking for information, and
11.
ithought het five
right in avowing his determination to
el) truct the further progress of these estimates.
tttnii, Lord J. RUSSELL said he would not use any addi-
al argument or say anything more than the House
scl already heard. They had considered the question
_ilfore them; they had decided it by 90 to 21, showing
clearly that a great majority thought that the previous
thletision was a sound one. The Hon. Member was,
erefore, proceeding with a vexatious opposition, and to
divide any more would be a mere waste of time.
Al,r H. BAILLIE asked why the information relating
4 1.0 the Ordnance had not long since been laid on the
table of the House?
Mr. COBDEN said it was quite a mistake to suppose
that estimates were ever altered in that House.—(•• No,
'AO.") He would maintain that they never were. During
the eight years that he had possessed a seat in that
'louse he hail never known a single instance of esti-
Mates having been altered. W
tbhye did e s theye t q
useesetki 0 to
Llirid, and why did they discuss.
heir object was to bring public opinion to bear upon
that Rouse. They wanted to get at facts and figures.
4 the ignorance in which the House was kept e did
.
oal b feel himself in a position to di-cuss the Ordnance es
timates, and if they insisted on proceeding with them,
j,,7, Should walk out of the House. If the purpose of the
—.`histers was to defraud the House of their time, they
tl°,llld not do so more effectually than by taking the course
twilui,h were now pursuing. He demanded a reason for
be e:r Proceeding thus, and he was told that a week would
tileiost if they did not go on with the estimates. Well,
th ni he they
prepared to lose a week in order to save
to nee Inciaey of the country. It was true that, according
zzie'i the rule of the House, the majority bound the
tiel?•°titY, but the forms of the House protested that mi-
foritY trom being trampled upon and coerced by brute
m ce• He thought, therefore, that his Hon. Friend the
_eerember for Montrose was quite right, and if he perse-
LordT d till midnight he should support his Hon. Friend.
J. RUSSELL said, that sufficient reasons had
alr
the"elY been given by two very important members of
to.s. metnittee—the Members for Ripon and Northamp- •
Ofu.,_ e Those reasons appeared to him, and to a majority •
,s,tu House, sufficient ground for proceeding with the
sumates.
After a few words from Mr. HUMS,
agreed M. GIBSON said he understood they were all
oo:retevdotes in the Ordnance estimates which
until thous Y---
y
tinitadnihmeetohnaltrethp
against—some of them he believed
the Committee should be postponed
. report of the Committee was in the hands of
...I.:3eenuat :earns:
uslisteLbLe_lie,v,ed the Noble Lord agreed to that.
eLord J. R
No, nci."] Well, if the Govern-
inhte)t_heened.e
of
fsetiirrnteadt
eat,otreartPepoooretuonotnilidMonday a single vote
not be received until
next bee; so that he could not see that any
tharnettilme Would st by postponing all the estimates
course would
one. He certainly thought the better
L_ 5 would be to postpone the votes until Hon. Mem-
ili'ci were in possession of the report of the Committee,
in a situation to discuss the subject fully
properly The Hon. Member for Surrey
t and.
had said that
rit!as.the.duty ot the minority to submit to the map-
)) Y; but if that Hon Gentleman looked at the minority
ee would find '
that a majority of the independent Mem-
Gue!ssoPriresent vvere for poetponing the votes, and he (Mr.
shouldl°
The CoeoutztOnly as one.---(Laughter.)
For eirt.
Hetelheen,e dreiveitdieeed, when there app2eoared
Against it
... ...
..•
3
Mjor' rued
post r. riuME theulmt-oved that the—Chair.m—an CI; n9o3w re-
port progress.,
Mr. NIOWATT said, if the Government were insen-
Bible to the ridicule—(Lau
Mittee to go into these Which they had bee Government
forcing the Com-
estimates. now that the report for
ri waiting tire months was lying on
the t
, able. he really thought to months
could not be surprised
S' the course his Hon. p,i,.nd,
to •
g.lin titho,__(n, , , pursued in the endeavour
The eexe• anal lauehtee )
Committee then divided, 'When there appeared—
For the tuotioa
Against it
.. •"... •••••• ::: 118
Majority
...
..•
•••
oit..IIIJAIE regretted that the business of the e-nintry
sect's " h 4 ititerrup ed by the obstinacy of the Govern-
e„,i, --(Laughter, and cries of " Oh.") The ordnance
,ovoatcs load been paetpened for five months, sad it the
n‘eowernment intended to take the course which they had
trettePoutstied, why had they so long delayed these esti-
taitent led, gut a report upon th-m, the Govern
now refusel to the House an opportunity of seeing
,Z• The -. e,, 4 • conauct of the Government on the present oc-
4'), was a preof that they had stooped in their eeeno-
ent (career. Ile had a super in his hand showing the
i,'),, moo, increase ot the:•e estimates, and proving the
111'e:salty of not hurrying over them v,''i!hout discussion.
tlib a they to pass them on the ground of confidence in
Such a proceeding would net, be tole-
rated if th
titeet:thvenrntin:olr'i!e wera in powtr, cial he remembered
';iresent Ministers were on the opposite side ot
4-10 use, that they supported him for 3ill weeks in

opposition to the army estimates alone.—(Hear, he:lr.)
If the report of the Committee would 1)0 in the han..s of
Members to-mt-irrow, he would consent to disease thee
stimates to-morrow, but he could not compromise the
constitutional function of the House by allowing esti-
mates of so questionable a nreure to pass in a hurried
manner. The fact that in 1828 there was a surplus of
revenue over expendituce of 5,000,0001., and in 18s5, of
1,620,0001., and that now at the close of the year 1848
there was a deficiency, proved that there was ample
giound for caution in voting aNay the public moLoy.
After the discussion that evening, he was sure that lion.
Members would read the report of the Committee on the
Ordnance estimates with more curiosity than they had
read any other report. He called the present a factious
proceeding—not on his part—(Laughter)—for he was
standing up for the constitutional power of that House,
but he maintained that the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government was acting a most factious part.—
(Laughter.) He now moved that the Chairman should
report progress, and he hoped that the Noble Lord would
listen to the ressons he had placed before him.
Mr. BROTHERTON had mtv.th rather that the re-
port of the Committee in question had been laid on the
table, but Hon. Members ought to take into considera-
tion the circumstances of the case. The Noble Lord
had stated that he had had every reason to believe that
the report would have been laid on the table in time for
its full consideration, but the Committee did not make
their report till the last moment. He was in favour of
reductions as much as any other Member, but he did not
like this manifest distrust of a Government which had
shown every disposition to retrench. If the money
were voted, the Government would not be obliged to
spend it.—(A laugh.) If the Government wished to
carry out the recommendations of the Committee, they
could still do so. _ _

After a few words from Mr. V. SMITH, who took the
opportunity of acknowledging the assiduity, patience,
and ability applied to the subject by the Noble Lord the
Chairman of the Select Committee,
Sir R. PRICE suggested that the Honourable Mem-
ber (Mr. Hume) would do well to content himself now
with protesting against proceeding with the votes, going
out if he thought tit, but not obstructing the public
business by dividing time after time. It had evidently
been the intention of the Government, in deferring
these estimates so long, to give opportunity for consider•
ing the report, but it had been delayed longer than was
expected.
Mr. BRIGHT could make great allowance for the
Honourable Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton), who
considered himself a firm ally of the Noble Lord's, and
whose natural disposition was so kindly that he was
sometimes in danger of forgetting a certain large num-
ber of persons down in Lancashire.—(oh! oh!) No
one would less wish to do so, but personal partialities
would influence the best and most honest.—(Hear,
hear) In no session since the Noble Lord had been in
office had less obstruction been offered to the Govern-
ment business; diseussior.s which, with the Whigs in
opposition, might have lasted a week, had been dis-
posed of in a eight. The Noble Lord might
now preperly and gracefully give way, and
allow the House to read and consider the re-
port. He (Mr. Bright) was told indetd that the
Noble Lord regarded the m .tier as rather personal,
and talked about speeches that wt re made for the
purpose of hustings' influence. Like everybody else, the
Noble Lord sometient s said things be afterwards wished
unsaid. Not long ego he said that some gentlemen in
the House knew a grent deal about trade, but wsro too
narrow minded to consider matters which concerned a
great empire. If so, it was a pity they were there at
all ; but it happened that very large numbers of persons
in various parts of the country had a different opinion
from the Noble Lord, and thought it important that
their interests should be defended, and their opinions
expressed in the House by those Members.
Mr. HEY WOOD must say that in his own neigh-
bourhood the Hon. Member for Salford was considered
a most independent as well as liberal man.—(Hear.)
He was a very experienced Member, and his advice
might well have much weight with the House.—(Hear,
hear.) If it was true, as stated, that the recommend.,
tions of the Committee were applied to the expenditure
in Mauritius, the lonian islands, and Bermuda, those
particular items might be postponed.
Mr. COBDEN wished to recall the attention of the
Committee to the point that they were asked to vote a
sum of 2,600,0001., while there lay upon the table .the
report of a Committee which would give them much
valuable information on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) lie
had now that report in his band, and would shortly refer
to it, especially as he understood the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Graham) to say that the
Mauriius, Bermuda, and the lonian Islands were the
only cases in which the Committee had recommended
reductions, notwithstanding that the evidence of Sir J.
Burgoyne and other gentlemen, all in favour of reduc-
tions, would be found in the report. The Noble Lord
had distinctly told them that, notwithstanding the re-
commendations of the Committee, he intended to take
this vote to-night.
Colonel ANSON had no objection to postpone the
votes to which the recommendation of the Committee
referred.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN was, nevertheless, anxious to show to
independent Members of the House how the case really
stood, for he did not agree with the Hon. Member for
Salford in thinking that it was no matter what money
the House voted, because Government would not spend
ft.—(Beer, hear.) As to the vote for the fortifications
of Cortu, for example, amounting to 450,0001, how
could they tell whether the proposition made on the part
of the Noble Lord was right or wrong, unless they saw
the report? He found it stated, on looking over the
report, that, according to the views of Lord Grey, these
works at Corfu should never have been undertaken.—
(Hear, hear.) It was also stated that one of the great
objections to the fortifications towards the sea was that
they renderud fortifications on the land side necessary
also, and imposed upon us the necessity, in the event of
war, of having a lurge garrison there. The inspector
of fortifications recommended delay; the Secretary of
State for the Colonies doubted the necessity of any
additional works ; and other witnesses thought
no more votes should be taken on these works till
the subject should be reconsidered by Government.--
(Elear, bear.) He asked the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
pesite if he meant to say that the Government could
attend that night to the recommendations of the Com-
mittee, when they stated that they knew nothing about
the report.—(Heal.) And it was urged against those tee
his side of the House that they had not been the mese*
of preventing a great waste of money that evening,
though there was little doubt that but for their opposi-
don the money would have been voted long ago, and
gentlemen opposite in their beds.—(Hear, hear.) IT'
the Government had not read the report, how could tney •
have been guided on that occasion by its recommenda=
tions?—(Hear.) But he denied what had been so often
stated, that the only recommendations of the Commit-
tee were to stop the fond-it:maims of the three colonies
named. This assertion was a proof of how mewl the
members of the Committee differed from each other,
ant[
it it showed, therefore, how important it was
that' atthe
Members of the House should read the report fur them-
selves. He found that in the report a most important
item was that of stores, and it was stated that we hod
at this moment Ordnance stores to the amount of no less
than 6,000,000/. The Committee at their last meeting
unanimously recommended that the number of depots
for Ordnance stores should be diminished, and that we
should do what private individuals did, profit as much as
possible by the rapid communication caused by railroads
and steamboats, to keep on hand a much smaller number
ut these stores, especially those that were perishable
articles, and thus effect a considerable saving to the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Was it unreasonable, then,
that they, as Members of that House, should desire to
make themselves acquainted with all the particulars of
such a report before they were asked to vote money to
so large an amount as was now proposed?—(Hear,)
Colonel ANSON felt himself compelled to point out
to the House a gross misrepresentation which the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Cobden) had made with reference to
the expenditure of the lonian Islands. The lion. Gen
demise stated that the expenditure was 456,000/., but he
concealed from the House the fact that of that sum there
was contributed from the Italian Islands 310,0001,
making the whole charge ,to this country 146,000/.--
(Cheers.) With these figures before him he quoted
456 0001. as the sum paid by this country for the lonian
Islands.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Montrose had
thrown out a wide challenge to him in the statement
he made as to the estimate for 1835-6 compared with
1849 50, and had made nearly as erroneous a quotation
as the lion. Member for the West Riding. Instead of
the estimates for the year 1835 6 being 1,000,0001.. they
were 1,497,0001; andj instead of their being 3,000 000/.
this year, they were 2,600,000/.—(Cheere.) He thought it
proper to set the House right on these important points.
Mr. COBDEN asked the Hon. and Gallant Member
if he was not right in saying that 456,000/. had been
voted by that House? (Colonel Anson assented.)
Then, if it were so, upon what possible pretence did the
Hon. Gentleman impute to him misrepresentation?—
(Cheers.) They voted 456,0001., and then called upon
the lonian Islands to pay their quota, at the expense of
great discontent and dissatistaction in those islands.—
(Cheerte) There were, in consevence, arrears unpaid,
and he believed they never would be paid.---( Hear, hear.)
They had no more right to tax the lonian Islands
against their will than they had to tax the people of
Yorkshire contrary to their wishes.--(llear.)
Captain BOLDER() having been employed to assist
in the construction of the fortifications at Corfu, had, of
course, his attention directed to the object they had in
view, and when he heard the Hon. Gentleman quote the
authority of Lord Grey he must say he was rather
staggered, though he vi as inclined to ask whether the
opinion of a civilian, however high his position, could
be put in competition with that of the most intelligent
and influential engineers?—(Hear, hear.) The fortifica-
tions of Corfu were undertaken to defend the entrance of
the Gulf of Venice, and they were commenced upon the
authority of some of the most experienced military men
in the empire. The lonian Islands agreed to pay
25,000/ a year, Omagh he was sorry to say that it had
not been exacted, and that 125,000/. was now due.
There was great inconvenience to the colonies in post-
poning the Ordnance estimates to so late a period of the
session. For ex tmple, suppose the Isle of France sent
home as its expenditure a sum of 7.0001., and the Ord-
nance Deparonent reduced it to 4,5001., the latter were
not justified in writing out to the Mauritius to sanction
the expenditure till Parliament had agreed to it. If
this sanction was not given till July, the people of Mau-
ritius could not receive their orders till December, and
in the mean time the works were stopped for want of
the funds, arid the public service suffered.—(Hear,
hear.) He must say he thought the Noble Lord had
met with most fac'ious Opposition on the present occa-
sion; but he thi,right he ought now to allow the estimates
to stand over till Monday.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, some rather uncalled-for
imputations had been cast upon him by the Hon. Nlem-
her for Nlincheiter, who had also expressed himself dis-
satisfied,
bc use wcitlaitl,te view taken by the Hon. Member for
he had said (speaking in his usual
kindly meaner) that he was disposed to place eonfidence