The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

he people ?—(I-1,ar, heir.) In France, %%ith some.;

30,000,000 .f Roman C3tholici. av« rev,nue ot.their
Church WAS ab• alt 1500,0001. DIA Preibyteriast
Church of Sc,itlai•d, 'which Adam Smith described As
1110 S, effective. in improving the morals of the people,
ha 58.000/. a year in his time, and had now nearly '
200 000/. ; but would that. give 200/. a year to each mi-
? In Ireland, for 800.000 Protestants, there went
1,643 benefice., a staff ot 2 200 ministers, with a state
p,,,%ision of 680.0001., and for the ministers of the

7,000,000 of Cattiolic.4 nothing at all.—(Hear, hear.)
Was nit the exclamation of Lord Carlisle justified,
that there was It Church without faith, clwrgy without
flocks, the worst gains or the sinecurist kept up upon the
w.or,t principles of the bigot.? There was a material .

difference between " a geod Protestant" in England and
in Ireliind. In England that term meant a god " family
man," who went to church, gave alms, and conducted
hems, If in a decent respectable manner —(A laugh.)
In Ireland " a good Protestant" was a phrase ap- .
plied to a man wile coniinually reviled the Roman Ca-
thoic faith. In Elizieeth's time the " good Pt otestant”
call d massacre and spoliation planting religion and civi-
lizition; under the Commonwealth he was a man who •
wierld bring back the t-rrore of the Old Testament and
totally forget tee mild doctrines of the New; after the
Revolution he added another article to the Thirty-nine
—" The glorious, piens, and immortal memory." People
who would probably hardly find one other point on
which they agreed joined in hating Popish doctrines and
loving Popish property—(A laugh)—and these descen- '
dents of Cromwelr's troopers and William's mercena-
ries, in the present day, wrapped up their cause with the
Eitablished Church in Ireland.--(Hear.) In touching
the question of the property of that Church, he (Mr.. '
Oeboree) was aware that he should be told it was
sacred. That was always so; but this cry of " sacri-
lege" was set up at the Reformation with much better
pretext than new. Men somehow confounded their spi-
ritual convictious with their worldly interests.—(Hear.)
Put there was no analoey between eoeperet„nd private
property. So said Lord Chancellor Brougham, , add-
log that the Church received its property fur the per,
rormance of c-rtain services, whereas private property •
was held unconditionally, and that the pay of the army
might as well he c d invi.la.bl- as that of the Church.
eleekin.tosh might also be quoted. Warburton laid it '
Iwo that the et rte might resume what the state gave..
N. Minister had ever stated in that House that there
was an analogs between corporate and private property..
—(Wear, hear.) how were the pricidents? In 1735
Prirliament took the tithe ete agisment,—in 1833 abolished
vestry; cess and ten bishops. Why not go a step further?
—(llear, hear.) In Canada, after the rebellion,—un- •
helpily we never did any of these things till blood had
flowed—(Hear, hear) —we took the clergy reserves, and
rtioagh by Act e,f Peril „meta they were di voted to the
Protestant Church. part. of them was now given for the
,ustinance and payment of the Roman Catholic clergy.
And who consented to that? The Right Hon. Members
for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) and Tameorth (Sir R. Peel),
end the Bishop of London. Let the precedent be applied
to Ireland.—(llear. hear.) An objection would be made,
based upon the 5.h article of union. Surely it was moat
ill-advised and impolitic thus to hold out to the Roman
Cat:lobes of Ireland a premium to induce them to
agitate for the repeal of the union.—(Hear.) but, in
tact, that article merely said that the two Churches were
to be united in government, disc'pline, and faith, and
made no menttott of the temporalities of the Irish Church.
a..d contained not one word which prevented Parliament
from interferieg with that Church, which was a thing of '
heir own creation. Even it it did, we had already al-
tered the 4th article; was the sth m .re sacred? The
Right Hon'. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) really disposed of this
peint, when he asked, " It we are convinced that the see
Mal welfare of Leland requires an alteration of the /Mr
end a departure from the compact, are our legislative
func ems to be so bound up that the compact is to be
maintained in spite of our convictions?" cichring that her
for one, had never been prepared to say amt.—(lean) •
It might perhaps be insisted that we ought' not to inter-
fere with the temporalities of this Church, because she
had the exclusive possession of religious truth. That ar-
gument, to use the words of an Hon. Gentlenan (Mr.
i)israili), was " an organized hypocrisy." lithe principle
was good for anything, why not extend it to Canada, the
Punj tub, Malta, Leman. and carry your dogmatic theo-
logy there ? But with more wisdom than sinceritY,
men shrunk from the application of their argumehh
which would dismember this mighty empire, in which
',very race c:aiwed toleration for its creed.—(Heat;
eear.) We heard much talk of "Protestant principles!
What did gentlemen mean by the term? Did they mean
persecution? Then he (Mr. o,,borna) was no Proter
tant.—(Rear.) It there was one Protestant principle We
should do well to act upon, it was that which was con'
,ecrated at the Reformation, and to which we owed all
cur liberty—the right of private judgment.—(Hear-)
He did not see how those who talked se loudly of this
could say that we Protestants had exclusive religious
truth.—(Hear. hear.) He had now to ask the House to
go in o Cenaruittee " to consider the present state of the
temporalities of the Church of Ireland." He was not
doing so with the view of abolishing it. All useful re'
terms must be fouieled on mutual compromise.—(Hear.
hear.) Neither did he wish to interfere with the exist'
erg rights or vested interests of the pre sent incumbents•
ar, hear.) But he asked the House to go into
Committee for the In:Tithe of seeing if they could
devise a plan by which the congregational
stem could
eii carried out in Ireland instead of the territorial.--
(Hear, hear.) In one diocese to Erigland—Chester----
one hishep till lately presided over 1.500.000 of people
leloti.,:ing to the Establi-h. d Church; in Ireland tye°
srohb,sh,ps and ti-n bishops presided over 800 000. IP
EilLtland there was one bishop to 412 benetic•s, in Ire-
t4l 138. He had no wild or vtteenaty scheme LO
or,pose; he would have one archbishop with 4,0001.
, year. a.d re lute teinuipbui:hn tp:betou f3iovdt:.nwitiee or the
with 2 0004
year ach.—(fiear, hear.) The Right H-n. Baronet
(Sir G. hire)) could
not
ropoil. L eid J. Russell toad the House in 1844.—"' r 6
e
Pla pronounced
by Dr. Whately, the
ei,rn;:hutrnsih% the
Lublin,
for making the Irish Church*
-hurch of congrega•ions, not parishes;" allying, that
letialgh he thought the Protestant Church ought to he
ell provided ter, he did not believe that anything like
d hi-"e'ra.)moulintt• (net(); . ) all• rtet.
'Edisto wpratsrpnoesceedsTYlis.; (01111 etabr;
cable the following resolution:—•• That it is the opitliee.,
..t this Committee that any surplus which I**J,
toter fully providing fer the spirituel
instruction of the members of the Established Church
Inland ought to be ept.liee locally 1(,),
'he general educaiien of all classes of the people.
(Hear, h• He bad only to add, that he would wall
tee Goveremeet nut to think that the present state 0!
Ireland was one which afforded' them any great ground
of satisfaction. Much had been heard from them wheo
in opposition of' large and comprehensive measures 10
oe passed fur Ireland; but what bad they done? They
Rad suspended the Habeas Corpus Act and altered the
Poor Lew; and taking, the example of the man who en'
deavoured to teed a starving dog with the proeuce of 01
own tail, they had passed a rate in aid.—(A laugh.)
They had lately reitainid a bloodless triumph, crusbiOg
agitation, and paral.) zing all political feeling for the pre:
sent in that country; but let them not imagine thn
putting down the tumult raised by a mad enthusiast ball
taken away the feelings and sympathies of the nation."'
(Hear.) Let thi m nut be lid away with the idea the
the present dull silence, proceeding from famine and de;
spair, was the result of happiness and content.—(Hear-)
Let them not urge "that this is not the time;" let these
gladly seize an up; ortunity presented to them by Prove'
deuce, and boldly put this question, which they had over
and over again said lay at the root of Irish heartburnieg
end discontent, on a footing which their former repute'
lion demanded.—(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS seconded the motion.
Mr. MOORE said that he was bound by his oath to do
nothing to subvert the Church as by law established
Ireland. The Hon. Member, after adverting at some
length to the provisions of the Catholic oath and to the
positi.m of the Established Church in Ireland went oP
to say that the present was no new subject. It was *e
old as the causes which gave it birth. He had read the
speeches of all the distinguished men of the present rase
on the subject of the Jrish Church, and it had surprise,
him that not one of the men to whom he bad alluded
had ventured to maintain that the success of that systehi
had been cornmenstiesite with its objects. He the°
alluded to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) in 1835, and te,
the speech of the Hon. Member for Oxford, both e`
whom maintained that church property was the same 01/..
private itroperty. Were the present a question of sere 7
millions of men living seven thousand miles away,'
might be dealt with differently, but the question cos'
c<-rued seven millions of int-n at their doors, and was o°,:i
so much a question of humattity as one of policy o°4
justrc'. The prosperity and the peace of IreltrO_
sAnzht to be of j• ct, of the most serious importane.st
and he believed that nothing could exceed the enoriolV.
et the abuse ..f the Irish Church. They had never cone
vet d any pert of the, nation in their attempt to ignpeZa
tllo Cuthithe Church in Ire land. They never succeeec,
in reclei
in taking proselytes, although armies were put
e 0
awl whole districts had been depopulated. weer)
hr, heard Hon. Gentlemen defending Church prope.rtZ.,o
Ireland, he could not help asking whether, it their Ile
was as clear as it was vicious, they could show a silo,
Finkle of claim to their present Church temporali%,
te. et. .‘t tef.t th. were on to show the relatt'be
eiee population bore Wseif
Catholic in the several provinces in Ireland. Be hie3d
paid tithe in eight parishes in the dice of TOM