The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-17 00:00:00

ever to the committee to inquire how the money alleged to
have been received by Mr. O'Connell had been expended.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Bradford had himself in-
sinuated that the money might have been expended for corrupt
purposes, and yet he proposed a resolution which did not give
the Hon. and Learned Member an opportunity of exculpating
himself from that insinuation.—( Hear, hear.) It was there-
fore his intention to propose the addition of the following
words to the terms of the resolution :—" And the application
of the monies said to have been received, and the circum-
stances under which they were received and expended."
The amendment was then put.
Mr. HARDY had asked for a full and fair investigation of
the whole of the transactions, which he should scarcely think
could take place without the application of the money forming
part of the inquiry, and consequently a part of the subject
matter of defence on behalf of the party charged. There
was another point, namely, whether it was necessary to expend
the money at all in election expenses. He called the attention
of the House to the bargain which had been made, and he
wished to refer it to a committee to say what that bargain was.
Whether it did or did not relate to expenses over which the
parties had no control, it was not for him to say. He did not
wish the amendment to be made upon:his authority alone, but lie
was ready to agree to it if it were the pleasure of the House.
Mr. HUME—Nothing could be fairer than the tone of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, only he had spoken as if the
bargain had been made between the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin and Mr. Raphael. This was not the case.—
( Hear.) The point had been clearly stated, and, so far as he
understood the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, it had
been clearly proved that the bargain was in fact made between
Mr. Vigors and Mr. Raphael.—( Hear.)
Mr. CHARLES WYNN—The allegation that this was
not an agreement between the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin and Mr. Raphael was a different question, which came,
of course, within the limits of the inquiry. The object of the
appointment of the Committee being to determine, whether
there was a negociation and agreement between the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman and Mr Raphael, touching the return of
the latter to that House, he saw no objection to the proposed
amendment ; but at the same time he thought it wholly unne-
cessary, because the Committee, acting on the very terms of
their appointment, would naturally inquire into the application
of the money, in order to throw a light on the nature of the
agreement. There could be no doubt that it must have
formed part of the res yestce of the case. The application of
the money was by no means conclusive, but he saw no objec-
tion to entering into that part of the case, although he wished
to preVent the inquiry from being extended to an interminable
length.
Mr. SCARLETT said, amidst loud cries of " Oh," and
" Question," that he should support the motion for a Select
Committee, though not on the ground of any personal corrup-
tion on the part of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin.
Fur his part he could see no difference between the present
case and that of a patron of Parliamentary boroughs. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had undertaken to re-
turn Mr. Raphael to serve in Parliament in consideration of
—what ?—of 2,0001. Why, what was the object, or one of
the principal objects, of the Reform Bill ? Was it not to do
away with the very power that it was admitted, was exercised
in this case ? He (Mr. Scarlett) had been friendly to reform
on this ground.—(Laughter.) Oh, yes ! he had advocated
a little reform—(Loud laughter)—which he thought was ne-
cessary, if only to do away with such abuses as the present.
There was an ancient political maxim—" To whomever you
give the rower, to that quarter will flow the property." To
such an extent did it appear that the " power" was now given,
that, instead of boroughs, there were whole counties disposed
of. He was most anxious for the appointment of a committee
of Members of that House whose impartiality could not be
called into question, but he was decidedly opposed to the
amendment of the Hon. Member for Bridport, which would,
in effect, admit before that Committee evidence upon those
multifarious topics suggested in the speech of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin. He trusted the House would
not adopt the words of the amendment, but adhere to the ori-
ginal resolution.

- Lord SANDON wished to know precisely what was the
meaning attached to the words of the amendment. Was it in-
tended by that amendment that the Committee should inquire
into all the circumstances connected with the Carlow election ?
Was it intended that, under the cloak of investigating the pre-
sent charge, the Committee were to go through all the matter
that ought properly to be submitted to the adjudication of an
election Committee ? If such were the intention of the
Hon. Member who moved that amendment, it was his
(Lord Sandon's) opinion that the House could not pos-
sibly agree to it. It was only right that the House should
know precisely what it was upon which the Committee was
about to decide.— (Hear, hear.) It surely could not be in-
tended that they were to inquire into the grievances of the
"widows and orphans." If such things as were described by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had really taken
place, it would be the duty of that House—a duty from which
he felt assured they would not shrink—to investigate them
fully and fairly. But it was not at this moment that such an
investigation should be entered upon, nor should two ques-
tions, sepa rate and distinct in their nature, be allowed to be
mixed up together.
Mr. W ARBU RTON had no hesitation in stating, for the
satisfaction of the Noble Lord and of the House, the extent
to which he proposed the inquiry should go. The Committee
should inquire what was the actual application of the funds
paid by Mr. Raphael through Mr. O'Connell's hands.—( Hear,
hear.) If it were stated that such a sum of money were paid
to such a family to indemnify them for injuries sustained, in
consequence of having pursued a certain course at the elec-
tion, it would be within the scope of the duty of the Com-
mittee to inquire into the circumstances connected with this
allocation of money. It was only to this extent that the Com-
mittee would be authorised to enter into the circumstances con-
nected with the election.
Lord SANDON expressed himself perfectly satisfied with
the explapation of the Hon. Member.
The SPEAKER then put the question on Mr. Warburton's
amendment, which was agreed to.
APPOINTMENT OF THE COMMITTEE.

Mr. HARDY said he now rose to move the appointment
of the Committee agreed to under an arrangement made by
the mutual friends of both parties.---(Cheers from the Minis-
terial side of the House.) Yes ; for it had been made too
much of a party question.—( Renewed cheers.) Would Ho-
nourable Members allow him to say by whom it had been
made a party question ? It had been made a party question
and it was for that reason that he expressed his anxious
wish to the gentlemen who concocted the Committee—that
his own name might not be inserted on it. He had, however,
the honour of proposing the names of eleven gentlemen to
whom he was happy to think that exception could be taken by
no party in that House. The Honourable Member then read
the following names :—Mr. Ridley Colborne, Lord Francis
Egerton, Mr. Bannerman, Mr. Barneby, Sir Ronald Fer-
guson, Sir J. Y. Buller, Mr. W. Ord, Sir C. Brooke Vere,
Mr. Warburton, Sir Eardley Wilmot, and Mr. H. G. Ward.
Mr. WARBURTON said, that as allusions had been made
to a deviation from an agreement supposed to have been made
by the friends of both parties, he felt it his duty to state the
circumstances of that agreement, as concisely, however, as pos-
sible. He was perfectly aware that whatever took place out of
that House could not, strictly speaking, be regarded as binding
within it. Yet, if it were to be considered by Hon. Members
that such arrangements might be broken and set at nought, it
would be a very strong obstacle, in fact a complete bar, to those
mutual agreements that were for the convenience and advan-
tage of all parties.—( Hear, hear.) He should without further
preface state the circumstances of the present case. Himself
and ;he Hon. Member for Cheshire on one side, the Hon.
Members for Edinburghshire and Montgomeryshire (so we un-
derstood the Hon. Member) on the other, met together to en-
deavour, if possible, to arrange, outside the House, whose were
to be the names which were to compose the committee. He
(Mr. Warburton) was most anxious that a man, admitted by all
to be of transcendent talents, who filled a large space in the
minds of his own countrymen, and no inconsiderable one in the
minds of the people of this country, should be tried by his peers.
and that the first men in that House should sit in judgment
on the lion. and Learned Member for Dublin. It was,
therefore, no less in accordance with his own feelings than
in obedience to the special request of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin, that he proposed the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamsvorth as one of
the committee.—(Cheers.) Upon the other hand, however, it
was suggested that if the Right lion. Baronet was on the
Committee, it would be only fair that there should be also a
proposed, lie shouldb ut
should not g o
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Cabinet Minister, and the Right Hon. the President of theßoard
of
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that it was agreed it should consist of eleven names, with a
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b
the name
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Chairman. Hon.
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Alem-
ber on the opposite side took the paper with the names of the
Committee, and consulted his friends upon the appointment.
In half an hour the Member for Cheshire came to him and
stated that an objection was made to the Right Hon. Baronet,
and that it came from the bight Hon. Baronet himself, to his
name being left upon the Committee ; and the Hon. Member
e
at the same time stated, that as the Right Hon. Baronet's
Tradeproposed.th
name would not be left upon the Committee, it was but fair
that that of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of
Trade should not be left on either.—( Hear, hear.) He men-
tioned this to the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, and
both considered that the list which he should read to the House
should be regarded as final and binding upon both parties. It
was, he believed, so considered by the Hon. Member for
Cheshire, and he thought it had also been agreed to by the
Hon. Member on the other side. The Hon. Member then
road the names of Mr. R. Colborne, Mr. Bannerman, Lord
F. Egerton, Mr. W. Ord, Hon. R. Clive, Sir R. Ferguson,
Lord Eastnor, Mr. H. G. Ward, Sir C. B. Vere, Mr. War-
burton, and Mr. Wilson Patten. On Monday evening the
110(1. Member for Edioburghshira met him going out of the
'louse, and handed him a list of the names which he said were
to constitute the Committee, but he (Mr. Warburton) re-
fused to receive them, saying that the list he had just read to
the House was that which he thought had been finally agreed
upon.

Sir G. CLERK then proceeded to state the circumstances
as, according to his apprehension, they had occurred, but the
Hon. Baronet spoke in so indistinct a tone a 3 to be scarcely
intelligible. He had agreed with the Hon. Member for
Bridport, that it was first necessary to settle upon some gene-
ral principles before they proceeded to appoint the Com-
mittee. It was agreed that no one who held office under the
Right Hon. Baronet should be on the Committee, and it was
also agreed, upon the other hand, that no Irish Member
should be on it, as they might very naturally be supposed to
be prejudiced on the question. It was proposed and agreed
that five Members should be taken from each side of the
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