The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-15 00:00:00

•

There existed a case in which ninety persons were regis-
tered as having a- freehold in the same term, and it was by
no means unusual to have twenty, thirty, or forty indivi-
duals registered as having a common right in one feral._
This increase of petty freeholders acted as an encouragement
to population, 'and much as he respected the elective fran-
chisee he should not object to such a modification of it as
would limit one person to -vote for one farm. He did not
wish to check the. population of the country, but to regulate
its growth. He should now come to the nature of the burthens
which that population had to bear, and should have to state an
extraordinary instance of misapplied taxation, which had not
only destroyed the comforts of the people, but had diminished
the revenue of the State, and formed a kind of phenomenon in
the history of fiscal mal-administration. The revenue of Ire-
land, in 1807, amounted to 4,378,2411. Between that year and
1815, additional taxes had been laid upon that country to the
estimated amount of 3,376,0001. From three were to be de-
ducted 400;0001. remitted at the end of the last war. Now the
whole revenue of Ireland in 1821 was 3,844,8891. e. so that the
effect of adding three millions of taxes had been to produce a
revenue less by several hundred thousand pounds than in
1807 ! And for this the comforts of the people had been de-
stroyed, and the gradations of the country removed ! If there
were any articles which tould be called the luxuries or the
poor, they were those of Tea and Sugar, which were but one de-
gree above the necessaries of life, endeanitottneedethe.ferat hp-
preach, to case and comibrt. The increased duty on sugar had
produced a small augmentation of revenue; for whereas the
produce of the duty was only 379,0001. in 1807, it had been
404,0001. on an average of the last five years. But the con-
sumption of the article itself had diminished from 338,000
cwts. to 267,000 cwts. In the article of Tea the Revenue
itself had diminished since the duty had been raised from
60 and 80 to 100. The average produce of the Irish Duty
on Tea between 1807 and 1809 had been 527,6031, whilst
in 1819 and 1820 it had been only 451,3001. These were
really taxes on civilization. An Irish Attorney-General had
once justly observed, that every house erected in Ireland was
an additional pled, e. and hostage of its continued connection-
with England. It was by raising the views of the people be-
yond the soil on which they lived, and by encouraging their in-
dustry, that a wise legislator would improve the minds and
conditions of men, and make them good and faithful subjects.
It was also to increased taxation that the increase of immora-
lity amongst the people was to be attributed, and the dissolu-
tion of all those ties of duty and obedience to which the prac-
tice of illicit distillation had led. Such temptation was afford-
ed by the duty on stills in Ireland, to private distillation, that
notwithstanding all the dangers of the practice, on an outlet of
91. a profit of 271. might be procured, being a bounty to that
amount for illicit distillation. Every illicit still became a school
for every species of hostility to Government, and formed a
nucleus for the spirit of insurrection. Neither did that bounty
for illicit distillation operate only on the mind of the pea.
sant. He was sorry to say, that it also influenced the mind
of the landlord, who was seduced, by the hope of obtaining
his rent, into countenancing the infraction of the laws.—
In the last six years 5,350 persons had been committed
for. illicit distillation, and 3963 had been convicted. Those
who knew the state of the prisons of Ireland, so wretched
in comparison to those of this country, could not doubt
the fact that the individuals committed for venial offences
within their walls must have come out hardened offenders,
disposed for every kind of mischief, and ready to erect openly
the standard of rebellion. This led him to consider the Admi-
nistration of Justice in Ireland. In the admirable work of Sir
John Davies, a Protestant and a Lawyer sent to Ireland to ad-
minister justice, that able observer said---" There is no nation
under the sun that does love equal and indifferent justice better
than the Irish, or will rest more satisfied with its decisions, al-
though against themselves, provided they have the protection
of the lain when they do deserve it." NI hen it. ,vas found that
such a people were in opposition with the existing laws, there
were grounds to believe that it was not without a cause. He
did not mean to impeach the character of the Irish Judges ;
he complained of the state of the Magistracy in Ireland, a
state which, it was generally admitted, had for years in-
dispensably required immediate revision. The necessity of
revision had been increased by the change which had taken
place in the property of individuals, some of whom, in,
stead of being able to support the independence and dignity
of their stations, had no other means of subsistence than
what they derived from the execution of their office, and were
liable to be sent to gaol for debt. Many weeks had not
elapsed since he had lent money to an individual who had ap-
plied to him in the character of a young Gentleman, son to
an Irish Magistrate. He had since discovered him to be an
impostor, not as to what lie represented himself to be, but as
to the means possessed by his family to repay the money which
he had borrowed. He had found him to be the son of a man
called a Gentleman and a Magistrate, but who was also a
Bankrupt. This hopeful father of a hopeful son illustrated the
state of the Magistracy in Ireland ; a state which ought to be re,
formed before all others. He was willing for the present to keep
the Catholic question out of view, but he was convinced that
there was not one individual among their, Lordships, however
opposed to fresh concessions, who did not wish that the laws
which now existed in favour of the Catholics should be justly
executed towards them. If so, he asked why the number of
Catholic Magistrates irt Ireland bore no proportion to the
amount of Catholic property, and why they were so seldom
admitted to Grand .Turies, which the law allowed, and by
which they might protect their own property ? Why was not
their admission provided for as far as the law allowed ? This
was not dealing fair towards them, and it tended to excite an
impression in the minds of the lower orders, that their sect
did not meet with the same favour and justice as others, an
impression calculated to irritate and to shake the foundation
of the repose of the country. He should appeal to the opinion
of one of the wisest of men, Lord Bacon, who happened to
pronounce it when.giving instructions to Sir Thomas Osborne,
who was going out to administer a high judicial office in Ire-
land : " The last recommendation, though the first in weight
that I give you," said that great man," is that you should pro-
ceed with equality in matters of Religion, lest Ireland civi-
lized should become more dangerous to us than Ireland savage."
So important did Lord Bacon consider it to he to keep down
all religious feuds and animosities. One of the consequences
of the heavy taxation to which Ireland was subjected was, that
two-thirds of her population were shut out of the advantages of
the law. He (lid not allude to those acts of spoliation come
mitted within the very sanctuary of justice, by agents who ex-
torted additional fees from the victims brought into Court;
but he considered that the State itself was much in fault. The
stamp on law proceedings had been increased threefold since
the Union. The augmentation might be harmless in England,
but when the same clog was applied to a poorer country, it
amounted to a denial of law and justice. The law proceed-
ings had thus been diminished one-fourth in Ireland, a circum-
stance of great congratulation if it had proceeded from a dimi-
nution of causes or of the disposition to litigate, but the con-
trary was known to be the fact. In consequence of the impos-
sibility of obtaining justice on reasonable terms, a most singular
practice had arisen in the west of Ireland. When two indivi-
duals disputed the possession of some land or tenement, they
fought for it, and then indicted each other before the Barristers'
Court, where the expence was trifling, for an assault, with an
agreement between them, that he to whom the Barrister should
pronounce that damages were due, should have established
his title to the land. Before he came to the last point to
which lie intended to call the attention of their Lordships,
he should say a few word* with respect to the effect produced
by absentee landlords. He was not one of those who rated
quite so high as others its tendency to impoverish the
country. Its moral effect he certainly rated much higher.
But he knew no other way of inducing absentees to reside in
Ireland than that of making it their interest to live there, and,
above all, to let those who did so, enjoy the protection of
the Government. He would also advise that every species of
honour and advantage which it was in the power of the Crown
to confer in Ireland' should be bestowed on those who resided
in that country. He should now come to that impost which
had existed so long under the name of tithes. The Irish po-
pulation, burthened with taxes, as hc had shewn, enjoying so im-
perfect an administration of justice, and suffering from the ab-
sence of the proprietors or the soil, was also subject to an im-
post most vexatious in its principle, most repugnant to the
persons who paid it, least consonant with the interests of
those by whom it was received, enforced by laws more re-
volting than the impost itself, and forming a burthen which
pressed more heavily in proportion as the distress of the
times was greater. Cases bad arisen in which persons had
been obliged to pay tithes although they had derived nothing
from the produce of their farms. Before he proceeded further,
he wished to guard against being thought to throw any imputa-
tion on the body of the Church. He had already disclaimed
all intention of attacking any class of men. He did not cern-
plain of the Church in Ireland, but of the situation in which
the clergy were
placed, and of the powers with which they

PRICE SEYENPENCE.

were wed, whether necessary or not. He did not wish to
see thefn forced in a situation in whiCh their sacred office way
calculated to irritate 'the people, and whilst he professed the
higrheserespect for the Church oflreland, he must say, that be
considered that Church as intended for the benefit of 'lreland;
and not Ireland for the benefit of that Church. The condnct
of mosi'neenabera of that Church was entitled to the highest
praise of that House. He -knew of clergymen who had re--
nounced their vested rights this year. In many instances,' in
the county of Cork, they had declared that they Would not re-
ceive cow tutees from flax. This conduct was most exemplary,
but it was unjust towards themselves, and he would not have
them so situated as to be reduned to the necessity of depriving
themselves of their just rights; Whilst litigious' Clergymen
were able to extort the full amount frown the poor. It appear-
ed from the Returns.laid before the other house, that in the
last six years there had been tried before the Ecclesientical
Courts in Ireland, where proceedings were attended with the
greater expence, 2,178 titheecauses ; and in the Civil Courts in
six counties 7,149. In the county of 'terry ,alone, the num-
ber of tithe cases had -amounted to 2,19 n. Assuming the
same proportion to have taken' place in the counties from
which no returns had yet been received, the number for all
Ireland in the period of six years, and exclusive of thola
tried in the Ecclesiastical Courts, must have amounted to
17,327. 3'he Noble Marquis then took'a view of the mode in
which tythesesoere collected in Ireland. A law existed in'tiust
country, by which, if three famera-gave notice the same day
to a Clergyman that they intended to ,set out their tythea,-that
notice was to be deeinecl a conspiracy, and to be punished as
such. Nothing could be said mere severe against the whole
system than that it required to be supported by a law so ini-
quitous and tyrannical. He did not charge all the Clergy a
Ireland to avail themselves of that law, they were too liberal
to 910 it, but yet the law existed and might be putin force. The
tythes were also most unequally raised. In some instances they
attached to potatoes, and in others they did .not, so that mucn
confusion prevailed on the subject. With an impost so unequal,
so levied, and which afforded an efficient remuneration only to
the litigious part of the Clergy, it must be an object of equal
importance to all that means should be provided for its com-
mutation. He was sure that he should not have to encounter
from any of the Noble Lords or of the Rt. Rev. Prelates in that
House, any doctrine in favour of the existence of tythes
,founded on any thing of a Divine right, for he found in a'book
published at the very period of the Reformation by the authoe
rity of the Bishops and of Queen Eli2abeth, by whose printer it
was printed, and entitled " Exposition of Doctrine," that one
of the greatest errors of the Church of Rome was the opinion
that tythes were founded on Divine right. He conceived that
the amount of the property possessed by the Church of Ireland
might continue to exist in a manner not oppressive to the coun-
try, but consonant With its interest, and in what he should Stig-
gest, he should keep the following points in view :-.-not to pro-
pose any principle of commutation to which as a tythe pro-
prietor lie would not limseif gladly accede ; which would not
leave the Church of Ireland in the samerelative state of wealth
and respectability which it now possessed, or which would
make it more dependent on the State than it now was. If, in-
deed, he could devise any mode to make it still less dependent
than it was, he would prefer it. What he would suggest
would be whether by a valuation of corn, as in Scotland, by
means of a sworn Jury, the tithes might not be commuted into
money, on an average of the five or six preceding years, secur-
ing to Clergymen the same degree of opulence which they now .
enjoyed. 'With a view to Ireland, it would be an improve-
ment if such a corn rent were paid by the proprietor, not the
occupier of land, and It would also be advantageous to provide
these proprietors with the means of redeeming the payment
of that rent, by allowing them to purchase land, and to
settle it upon the church in lien of the impost, which would
thus be extinguished for ever. A precedent .of this kind
had occurred when a Bill passed through that House without
any opposition from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, allow-
ing the parish of Clifton to purchase an estate for the clergy-
man, and thus exonerating the parish from tithes for ever. In
Ireland there could be no objection to place clergymen in the
situation of land-owners, as it would only tend to increase their
respectability in the opinion of the people. A burthen was now
casnon the Catholic peasantry, who were forced to pay for the
rebuilding of Protestant churches and chapels. Now he had
heard it said that a new valuation of first fruits would produce •
the means of rebuilding Protestant churches and exonerating
the Catholic peasantry front a charge which could not be other-
wise than oppressive to them. The first fruits had not been vae
lued since the time of Queen Anne, and, he understood, proe
duced less at present than at that period. A new valuation was
therefore advisable; and the inure so, if it could have a salt:-
tary effect on the intercourse which must subsist between the
Protestant Incumbent and the Catholic peasantry in Ireland.
The Noble Marquis then called upon their Lordships to trans
port themselves in imagination from the metropolis to a distant
parish in Ireland, and to watch the operation of all the evils to
which the people were subjected, when deprived of their natural
protection, exposed to temptation fad earning their subsistence,
by the infringement of the law. Ile once more alluded to his
Majesty's visit to Ireland, and intreated their Lordships to
make it an epoch in the history of that country, by conquering
all prejudices, and proceeding and continuing in a course ;et
wise and temperate Legislation. • He then moved the inner,.
mg Resolution :
" That it is the opinion of this fleuse that the state of Ire•
land indispensably,
,requires the immediate attention of Perlin:
ment, with a view to improve the condition of its population,
and more effectually provide for its tranquillity and domestic'
happiness."
The Earl of LIVER.POOL felt as deeply ,as any of their -
Lordships could do, the importance of the subject now before
their consideration, and his feeling of that importance had, if
possible, been augmented by the fair, temperate, and candid
manner in which it had been brought forward by the Noble
Marquis. In going into this subject, it was his into Lion to
express his opinion upon its various topics with as little die-
position as the Noble Marquis to introduce extraneous matter.
or to aggravate any of the distresses of Ireland, or any other
part of the empire, which it must he the wish of all should
not be aggravated. If he :objected to the proposed re-
solution, it would be because there was no necessity for
their Lordships adopting it, and because it implied a
censure upon the Noble Lord now at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government in Ireland ; and he should not meet it
by a decided negative, but by moving the previous question.—
Before, however, he pursued wadi a course, he felt himself
bound to look minutely and attentively at the state of Ireland
at the present moment. Before deciding upon a remedy, they
were bound to look at the real cause ; lie did think that the
state of Ireland had been greatly mistaken. Her condition
had always been aggravated for the purposes of faction (and
here he certainly did not allude to the speech which had just
fallen from the Noble Marquis), and her real suffering luid
been increased to further factious views. Ilierefore their
Lordships ought not to proceed until they had examined well
the sources of the evils. In conriclering the state of ke-
land, or of any other country, as he had advanced npore
a previous occasion, there was one distinction necessary to be
borne in mind. First, they must look to tee whether the evils
complained of grew out of the relation which existed between
the Government and the governed; and secondly, whether
they grew out of the relation in which those who laboured
for their daily bread, stood to the owners of the property of
such country. This had for ever been a principle of policy
since the beginning of time down to the present moment.—
In those countries -whose history. formed their early study, in
all the contests between the rich and the poor, between
plebeians and patricians, where liberty was in every man's
mouth, it would be found that the great mass of the popula-
tion were in a state of slavery. In modern times they did not
want similar examples. In the United States, the condition
of the peasant was one of complete slavery ; and there were in-
stances of the same fact in Europe. It was not therefore suffi-
cient for them to know that the people were in the state
they had been described to be in; it became necessary for their
Lordships to look into the relations which subsisted between
the Government and the governed ; and also between the poor
and those who possessed the property of the land. lie did not
mean to say that this was particularly applicable to the entire
situation of Ireland, but he advanced it as being illustrative of
the principle he had laid down. But if they kicked fairly into
the condition of Ireland, it would be found that nine-tenths of
her grievances were not dependent upon any thing connected
with the Government, but that they depended upOn the rela-
tive state of society in that country. The. whole history of
Ireland would bear out this proposition ; for, with the excep-
tion of the insurrection of 1798, when a French army was land-
ed in Ireland, and there was a regular conspiracy against the
Government, the disturbances and rebellions which had occur-
red had been invariably directed against property, and not
against Government. The Noble Marquis had alluded to the
late visit of his Majesty to Ireland, and no one could doubt
but that it did prcduce great good at the time, when it was re

membered with what an expression of love and enthusiasm he
was received, and the feeling .in which his gracious visit ori-
ginated. But his Majesty had not left the country—his foot
was still upon it, when the insurrection broke out in all direc-
tions. He had seen a letter from Limerick, written at the very
height of these outrages, which stated that even there the head
quarters of the insurgents, if his Majesty had made his appear-
ance, he would have been received with the same enthusiasm
which his presence drew forth in Dublin. And let it be remem-
lend that in all the notices and bills which had been posted
through: at the disturbances, they scarcely ever mentioned the
telovernaient as an object of odium. This shewed that the late
insurrection, as well as almost all others that preceded it, was
• directed against property alone. With regard to the benefits
which were said to be withheld from the people of Ireland, it
was curious that if they looked to the operation of the prin.-
.eiples of the Constitution in the kingdoms of England, Scat-
'land, and Wales, it would be found that Scotland was the
Flue where popular principles prevailed in the least degree;
and that in Ireland they were the most numerous. Let them
Nook first at the state of the representation, and it would appear
that Scotland possessed very little of popular representation,
while Ireland's representation was more popular than fiat of
England. Nay, he would go farther. A. Noble Lord in the
other House, whose character and connections were most re-
spectable, had lately brought forward a motion. for extending
-the elective franchise in this country. He was glad that sued a
motion bad been lost, but if it should have been carried, even
then the representation of Ireland would have been more popu-
hr than that of England. Not only did the more popular
principles of the Constitution enter into the government of Ire-
-land, but they were absolutely greater and more extended
than a bold and speculative proposition of Reform would
have given to this country. Again, with respect to the
benefit of the law, Ireland was in possession-of a much
greater proportion of our Constitutional Laws than Scotland.
In fact, she enjoyed the full spirit of the Constitution. Did
she not possess the trial by Jury ? Had she not independent
Judges'? And if they might reason from the number of appeals
which'came before them, it would be seen that Ireland did not
`complain of the manner in which justice was administered; With
this View of the question then, whether he looked to the state of
• the country, or whether he looked at the feeling of the people,
as he was bound to do in such a case, he came to the conclu-
Nio7l that their disquiet did not arise from disloyalty—it did not
arisofrom hostility to the British Constitution—it did not arise
in that undefined desire for Reform which sometimes agitated
the Minds of some bodies of men in this country, when suffer-
ing under temporary distress. The Noble Marquis had alluded
to abuses in the systems of finance and revenue adopted to-
wards Ireland ; he only desired that their Lordships would
look at what the Noble Lord had admitted with respect to the
-fertility of the soil, and the solid and substantial wealth of
that country, and then consider that England, with fourteen
millions of population, paid fifty millions of taxes annually,
-while Irelatal, with all its resources, paid Only four millions of
*taxes. He would then ask them whether the burthens
'inflicted upon Ireland were excessive or intolerable. The
.Noble Marquis had stated that the revenue in Ireland had
'diminished since the war. He was perfectly aware of that ;
and' the cause was as obvious. , He knew that Ireland was
one of the countries which suffered greatly from the reduc-
tion of the expenditure of the war. The cause of the
decrease of revenue was, therefore, plain and simple. It
arose from the :eduction of expenditure and the consequent
reduction of demand for the war provisions and articles
for which Ireland was the market that furnished the sup-
ply. When the Noble Marquis complained of the conduct
of this country towards Ireland upon subjects of finance,
'did he recollect that England had taken the debt of ,that
Country upon herself, and was now paying. the interest
-of that 'debt•by her own means? This alone was a proof that
every indidgent,•that every generous consideration had always
been entertained by this country towards Ireland. 'As to the
'distillation laws, it was when they were repealed by a Noble
_ _ _ _

Lord, •at that time Chief Secrefary for Ireland, the measure
gave rise to such general inebriety amongst the poor, that the
whole body of the Irish representatives in the House of Corn-
- mons desired that they might be renewed. He was, notwith-
standing, prepared to admit that this was a subject demanding
strict attention. But as a commission had been appointed,
• consisting of gentlemen who were particularly qualified to.
investigate the question, they ought to wait for their report be-
fore any steps were taken upon this branch of the affairs of
*freland. The next topic upon which the Noble. Marquis touch-
ed vhts that of the Magistracy, and he could not but feel that
'this involved the whole question of absentees ; a question which
was undoubtedly one of the greatest difficulty as well as im-
portance. •He would not inquire whether, as a principle of po-
iitical economy, it was advantageous to a country that the
value of its produce should be drained from it and spent in
distant parts ;—he would not stop to examine that question, be-
.- cause 't4ere was another great and over-ruling consideration
which pressed upon his mind, that of the moral effect produced
hy such a course. It was well known what the force of ex-
ample would do; and if Gentlemen would not remain upon
-their estates, and see the law enforced, it must follow that the
Magistracy descended into other hands, where its character
. and respectability were not so likely to be upheld.. lie was
• quite mire that a reform of the Magistracy was now in progress,
• and that if any violation of the duty of a Magistrate were corn-
' rnanicated to the Lord Lieutenant, or if such a communication
•had been made to his Noble Friend, the late Lord Lieutenant,
•it would have received immediate attention. . In fact, the Be-
form of the Magistracy was at this moment especially under
the attention and direction of the Lord_ High Chancellor of

• Ireland.- The Noble Marquis had stated that partiality was
exercised in the selection of Magistrates, to the ,exclusion of
Catholic Gentlemen. From all the information which it was
in his power to collect, he did not believe• that this was the
case ; and he was quite surf that if it had been so, any well-1
founded complaint to the Lord Lieutenant would at once re-
move the evil. Upon the subject of Grand Jury Present-
ments, he begged to remind their Lordships of what had been
the state of Scotland previous to the rebellion of 1745, before
tie appointment of heritable jurisdictions. It was worse than-
the present state of Ireland. And yet those measures proved
- effectual to the accomplishment of their object. He would un-
.edertake to say, that in like manner the measures now in pro-
_ pis.; in another place, if properly aided by the Magistracy,
eand the resident Nobility and. Gentry, would greatly alle-
viate the evils which had been so long complained of. He
now came to the great question of the Tithes.. And before
entering into it, he must set out upon the basis, that the
right of tithe—he did not mean, he could assure the Noble
Marquis, to say any thing about the divine right—but he must.
set out opon the basis that the right of tithe was as sacred as
the riYet by which any other description, of property was held.
-The proprietors of land could only devise nine-tenths of
it, and that alone had been devised to them. The remaining
;lentil part belonged as rightfully to the Church, or to the lay
eimpropriator. He was perfectly satisfied of the power of Par-
liament to accommodate property without inflicting injury on
the possessors; but they could not touch this species of pro-
perty, any more than that which came under any other descrip-
• thin. Of the resident Clergy in Ireland he would say that
they were, generally speaking, the most useful to their country
-of any body of men which it contained. He did not here
speak of them as Clergymen only, but as being in a great mea-
sure land-proprietors, who lived upon their 'estates, and spent
their income upon the spot from whence it was derived. The
right of tithe, then, was in the first place a sacred right, and
2:11y, it was a right es well or perhaps better exercised than
-it would be in the'hands of any other body of men whatever. He
was one of those who thought tythes to be no evil ; and he con-,
aidered the observations of the Noble Lord rather to bear upon
_another question; it went to the unlimited subdivision of pro-
perty. In this country a clergyman possessing4ool. a year, would
--perhaps have to collect it from 30 or 40 persons; in Ireland a
Clergyman would have to collect the same sum from perhaps
i 509 individuals, they being the very poorest of his parishion-
ers, and the necessary consequence was that he must be en-
. gaged in endless litigations, or not obtain his tythes at all. He
would ask their - Lordships what was the natural remedy for
this ? He would-say, let the prOperty pay the tythe ; let the
proprietors lease the tythe to the farmer, and that would
.rerrieve the evil. If there should be any obstructions to this
plan, they would be thrown in the way by the prhprietors alone,
and the evils complained of would rest with them alone. He
knew it might be said, that this set at rest the idea of a com-
mutation of tythes. But he had never yet heard of a plan for
;a commutation to which he did not think this measure was to

he preferred. The great principle, in his opinion, was to look
• to the proprietor, and they should thereby save all the liti-
..gation, and remove all the grievances together. Of the dif-
ferent evils complained of, none appeared.to him so great as
the extreme subdivision of property in Ireland. In this
country they had seen the progress of civilization and hap-
piness begin where that minute subdivision of property
ceased, ~and its consolidation proceeded to a certain extent.
As this system now operated in Ireland, it appeared to
him, that while it gave the forty shilling freeholder no real.
advantages, it gave rise.to almost all the evils with'which he
was surrounded. Such a plan as he had described -had been
introduced into the other House last night by a Right Hon.
Friend of his, arcs he felt it necessary to state that this was
not the only plan which was in contemplation by the Irish Go-
v:irnment. There was another most important measure under
their consideration, for another Session, and this was advanced
chiefly for the purpose of trying how the principle could be
introduced. There was also a measure in progress for esta-
blishing an efficient police, ID which he was aware that many
objections had been Made. He was, however, convinced of its
:,necessity, and looked forward with confidence to its practical
results. He should not enter into further discussion upon its
merits, as it would in due time come regularly before their
:Lordships' consideration. He begged to thank the Noble
_Marquis for the manner in which he had brought for-,

ward the subject, and he could not suffer this question to
go to a division, without saying a few words upon the
conduct of the Noble `Lord at the head of the Irish Go-
vernment. Since he hail so advantageously filled that high
office, a part of his time had udhappily • been interrupted
by indisposition; but still he had applied the whole force of ,
his great mind to the quesfiona which this motion involved.
He was, perhaps, the last man in the world who would put his
hand to a hasty or precipitate measure ; but when he had duly
weighed the evils which demanded a remedy, and the conse-
quences of applying an efficient one-Lwhen lie had matured
nis opinion, and satisfied his mind that it was well founded
and just, no man would be readier to tarry it into effect with
firmness and decision. It was not, therefore, from such a cha-
racter that they were to expect immediate measures for such an
object as the restoration of tranquillity and order in the dis-
tracted condition of Ireland. That Noble personage was well
known to have great capacity; but besides that capacity, he
had the strongest attachment for his country. It was there that
he first distinkuished himself. He had returned to it now for the
first tithe since that period, and his acknowledged desire was, that
the last act of his political, life might be one which should lay
the foundation of its future happiness. Without meaning the
slightest disrespect to the Noble Marquis, and solely for the
reasons he had assigned, he should beg leava to move the pre-
Vious question.—(Hear !)
The Earl of LIMERICK disclaimed all. party feelings in
giving, his opinion upon a question of such vital and important
interest. The Noble Earl seemed to think there was no neces-
sity for coming -to this Resolution, but he (Earl Limerick)
thought the statement of the Noble Marquis proved the neces-
sity of coming to this Resolution ; ,and if the attention of Par-
liament were not called to the state of Ireland in the course of
this SCSS4.)64 the consequences which would follow would be
lamentable. lle denied that much of the distress was attribu-
table tnthe 'lrish landlords, than whom there were no better in
the world, but the'syStern of Excise Laws in Ireland was suffi-
cient to barbarise any country, as it arrayed every bad interest,
and every bad feeling, in • direct hostility to the real interests
of the country. Nothing tended more to create cupidity among
the middle classes-than the mode of elections in that country,
and in that point he would wish to see a Reform. 'With respect
to the system of tithes, he would say, that although he was de-
scended on both sides from two Clergymen, 'and ought there-
fore-to have a wish to witness the prosperity of the. Church, yet
when he saw that the present system did much mischief and no
general good, lie could not advocate it. Ile wished not to be
understood as the advocate for the spoliation of the Church,
because if he were such an advocate, he should consider himself.
an advocate for the spoliation of his Own property ; but he did
advomte the commutation of tithes when effected by the consent
of the majority of the Church. • The Noble Earl had said, that
such a measure would have the effect of taking away many of
the resident elergyMen. He did not believe that a clergyman
would be more inclined toleave his living when he was certain
of receiving the amount of his income. fie never would con-
sent to the proposal of the Noble Earl, that the property of the
country should he liable to the demands of the clergymen. At
this moment the landlords received very little ; and if they
were liable to the demands of the clergy, they would receive
nothing. Ile supported the Tithe Bill, because although it
did not go far enough, yet it did good as far as it went.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that those who were the
objects of the administration of justice in Ireland found no
-reason to complain of it, as was evident by the comparatively
few appeals made to that House. The Noble Lord remarked
that he had lately been examining into the number of ap-
peals which • remained to be disposed of, and had calcu-
lated the days they would ,ocoupy, should their Lordships be
pleased to order that the Lord Chancellor sat constantly to
hear them. For those of England, Ireland, and 'Wales, it
would require fifty days. But those of, his friends the Scotch
would require 00 days:—(A laugh.)—With regard to the Ma-
gistracy in' Ireland, he was convinced that if some dozen df
the N'ible Lords he saw about him would go and reside there
for three months in the year, they should hear no further corn-
plaints. In what he was about to observe upon some part of
the Noble Marquis's speech, he wished to be understood as not
meaning any disrespect to him who so well deserved the
respect of every respectable man. But he had never before
heard the tithes described as taxes and imposts upon the
people. They were no more taxes- and imposts than the
other nine-tenths of the Noble Marquis's estates. Another
Noble Lord had also talked of interference with the property
of the church. He would tell that Noble Lord that he had no
more right to interfere with that property, than he (the Lord
Chancellor) had to interfere with the Noble Lord's nine-tenths.
He and his ancestors had purchased that nine-tenths and no
more; and the other portion belonged to the Church by the
same right which kept him in possession of his own.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE confessed that he had been
disheartened and disappointed at hearing the Noble Earl op-
pose this resolution : it had certainly been his hope that
the subject would have occupied the attention of Parliament
this Session. He thought, however, the resolution would skew
to the people of Ireland that their Lordships' House, as wel
as the Irish Government, were considering of 'remedies to cor-
rect the evils of the system of which they complained. If the
police plan were adopted, he knew that some Magistrates of
high honour, and who performed.great services to the part of
the county in which they resided, would retire in disgust. He
entirely' and heartily concurred in the motion of the Noble
Marquis, and begged as a landed proprietor to return him his
thanks for the manner and the time in which he had brought it
forward.

The Earl of DONOUGHMORE eulogised the character of
the Marquis of Wellesley, and expressed his conviction that the
measure m progress in the other House, to which he had a de-
cidea objection, did not originate with that Illustrious Indi-
vidual. He did not think time had yet been given him, and
'whenever his measures were matured, they would be measures
of a great mind, and adequate to the great object which called
them forth. _

Lord EL LENBOROUGH said, that if the statement of the
Noble Marquis were unanswerable. as it had been described,
and as he considered it to be in some points, it was the
strongest censure on the present and past Governments of
Ireland that could be devised. The Noble Earl at the head
of his 'Majesty's Treasury had said that the state of Ire-
land depended upon the state of society in that country ;
but he (Lord Ellenborough) traced the state of society to ,the
Statute Book. He begged their Lordships to consider how
different would have been the condition of Ireland at this mo-
ment if such a resolution as that now proposed had been agreed
to at the Union. He was of opinion that the tranquillity of
Ireland would never be restored under the present sys-
tem of government.' It was impossible that justice could
be done to the population, or what was equivalent to
that, it was impossible that they could believe they. should
receive justice, while the existing laws ,remained in force
upon the subject of religion. The Noble and Lea-,ned
Lord upon the Woolsack had said that the small number of
Appeals proved that there was no objection to the administration
of justice in Ireland. But it was not between the rich and the
rich that justice was said to be withheld. It was between the
rich man and the poor man, and of such cases the appeals could
give them no account. With regard to the question of tithes,
he should undoubtedly agree to some such proposition as the
Noble Earl had suggested. But the plan would be of no use
unless it were made compulsory upon proprietors.
The Earl of BLESINTON observed, that the Act of taking
away the lands from the Roman Catholic Clergymen, and giv-
ing them to the Protestant Cl6.gymen, was a sufficient prece-
dent to justify Government and the Legislature in making any
alteration in the arrangement of the tithes that they might
think proper.
Lord DARNLEY deprecated the tithe system in Ireland,
and regretted that nothing effectual had been done for the ame-
lioration of the condition of the Irish population. The pros-
pects in Ireland! were brighter in consequence of the visit of
his Majesty to that country, and the appointment of a Noble
Marquis at the head .of the Government gave every reason to
hope that the situation of Ireland would be considered, and
that the country, so long neglected, would at last be placed
under the advantage of the British Constitution. With re-
spect to the administration of justice, he did not wish to
throw discredit upon the Magistracy of Ireland. In one
part, with which he was more acquainted, he had reason
to believe there was a respectable Magistracy, but he was
persuaded that censure would apply to the Magistrates of
other parts. The measure in the other House of Parliament
would not remedy the evil, but rather disgust. His Noble
Friend could not be charged with precipitation in bringing
forward this motion. The time had come, When Parliament
ought to inquire into the state of Ireland, and if their Lord-
ships should be of opinion the proposition of his Noble Friend
could not be adopted during the presont Session, he expressed
a hope that it would be brought forward next Session. Rather
than the subject should be passed over unnoticed, he would
mention it himself, again and again. The Noble Earl gave
his support to the motion.
I Lord HOLLAND said, after what had been' expressed on
the subject by those Noble Lords connected with Ireland,
and after the able and eloquent speech of the Noble Baron
(Ellenborough), who was, like himself, not connected with Ire-
land, he wouldionly express his opinion on topics that had been.
improperly brought before their Lordships, and were not con-
nected with the subject. The motion of his Noble Friend only
went to pledge their Lordships to take the state of Ireland into
their consideration; this was answered by the Noble Earl by
moving the previous question; that was, according to Parlia-
mentary language, saying this is not the proper time fgr taking
it into consideration, but when'it comes from Ministers it bears
another construction—have confidence in the ExecutiVe, and
it will do all yeu ask for. He agreed that Parliament had
had sufficient patience on this subject, for when a message
came from the Crown for coercive measures against the people
of Ireland, which their Lordships reluctantly granted, the

Noble Earl at the held of the Treasury told them, it was the
state of the society of the country made them necessary, and the '
Executive was trying.to obviate it, which was precisely the same
tone which they had heard for the last 22 years. When his
Noble Friend "(the Duke of Devonshire), with the .'modesty
'which became his age, and with that Promise of ability which
was inherent in his family, presented- a Petition for the com-
mutation of tithes—(Hear, hear, hear,)—the Noble Earl oppo-
site (Liverpool) highly complimented his Grace, and seemed to
concede to the prayer -of the Petition, and so far imposed on his
Grace, as to make him believe that he would concede ; but
he (Lord Holland) told the Noble Duke he was mistaken,
for the Noble Earl had two modes' of getting rid of a ques-
tion ;—the first, by being 'boisterotts, and, declaring that the
country' was in danger, or that the Church and State were in
danger ;—the other, by acceding to every thing that was said,
but it was not the time for its being carried into effect. He,
for himself, would rather take the Noble Earl in his higher
tones, for in his softest moments he was the most dangerous.
—He recollected, on the question of the Catholics, the great-
est objection the Noble 'Earl' had to the measure was, that
it would put swords in the hand of the Catholics to cut the
throats of those- belonging to the established Church ; but he•
afterwards agreed to a Bill introduced by the late Duke of Nor-
folk, which put the very swords in the hands of the-Catholics.
When his late ever-to-be-lamented friend, Mr. Horner, in the
other House of Parliament, brought forward the subject of the
currency, the Noble Earl merit with abhorrence, and there was
a resolution passed in the other House of Parliament, that
' a one pound Bank note and a shilling were of equal value
as a guinea; but afterwards the Noble Earl assumed the
proposition of Mr. Horner. The Noble Earl said at one
time, from the increase of the population of the country,
the Standing Army could not be reduced, not one could be
taken 'from it, and afterwards he swept away one-third of it.
It was the same with the reduction of the taxes ' , the Noble
Earl had told them that not one shilling" could be given up,
since which several taxes had been repealed. The Noble
Earl, perhaps, would tell them it was 'not he that had
given them up, but the House of Commons. He would
tell him that he was at the head of his Majesty's GcVern-
i-nent and was particularly connected with the finances of
the Government, and that. he ought not to make assertions
to their Lordships and the country, which were not founded in
fact. Then came the question of the Sinking Fund : the Noble
Earl would not part with'a shilling of it; he would take it into his
embrace, and clasp it to his bosom ; but the moment he could not
deal with the Jews, hii arms got enfeebled and he lets it fall from
his embrace.—(Bear!)—The Noble Earl had, told them to
trust to him and his Colleagues, and they would bring the
country safely through. He, for one, did not believe him ;
for whether it was from the -construction of the present Admi-
stration, or its bad component parts, he, for one, would
' not trust then). The whole of the Noble Earl's argument
against the motion' was the state of society. This came with 'a
bad grace from a person who supported the Union, and brought
that -bad society into the.bosom of his country. The Noble
Lord concluded by intreating their Lordships, as they had in-
troduced the people of Ireland into the English Constitution, to
give them the whole benefit of it, and not to suspend the trial
by Jury from time to time in that country.
The House was then cleared for a diVision.
For the original Motion—
Contents present - 35
Proxies - - 25—Total - GO
Against the Motion—
. Not Contents - - - . 66
Proxies • - - - 42:—Total - 108
Majority against the Motion - -—4 B
Adjourned at Halt-past ELEVEN o'Cloek, to Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
MISCELLANEOUS.

Mr. WARRE presented a Petition fron Taunton, against
the Licensing Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the said
Bill.

Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from two individuals
who exercised the trade of Tanners in the-County of Surrey,
representing that they had discovered an advantageous mode
of dressing ides, and praying for encouragement.. Ordered to
lie on the table.

Mr. DALY gave notice, that on Wednesday next he should
bring forward a motion respecting,the present Tithe System of
Ireland.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR presented a Petition from the Gover-
nor and Company of the Chelsea Water Works, praying for
compensation in conse9uence of the injury, which, they alleged,
would be done to their property by the London Bridge Water
Works Conapanv.—Ordered to be referred to the Committee
on the said Bill.
Doyle's Divorce Bill was ordered to be committed; and it
was ordered that all notices in the progress of the Bill neces-
sary to be served on Lady Doyle, should be served on her
Ladyship's agent.
Mr. COKE presented a- Petition from certain Landowners
of Norfolk, complaining of Agricultural distress, and praying
for Parliamentary Reform—Ordered to lie on the table.
Sir R. -WILSON presented a Petition from a Mi. Lewis,
confined in Oakham Jail under sentence of the Court of King's
Bench, for a libel, and for a penalty of 1001. inflicted upon
him for selling roasted grain, which was stated to he a frau-
dulent imitation of coffee. This the petitioner denied ;• and
he referred to the opinion of the late Chief Baron 111‘Donald, to
prove that the selling 9f this grain was no fraud upon the
revenue.

The petition, after a few words from the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, was ordered to lie on the table.
General GASCOYNE wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether he meant to persevere in his intention of re-
taining the remnant of the Salt Tax ?
Mr. H. SUMNER wished also to know whether the Leather
Tax would certainly be repealed ? It was of consequence to
those concerned in the trade to be distinctlyinforrned on the
subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that with
respect to the Salt Tax he intended to propose many resolu-
tions, in alteration of those already agreed to by the House.—
The internal tax, it had already been said, would be reduced
to 2s. The other duties he proposed should be continued until
1825, that the public and the House might see the effect of the
present alterition. With respect to the export salt, he pro-
posed to extend the duty free allowance to Ireland.. He pro-
posed also that Ireland should be allowed to manufacture salt,
without payment of any duty. The last observations would ap-
ply to Scotland, to which it was also proposed to extend those
allowances.—Should his plan meet the approbation of the
House, he intended to persevere in his promise to take off the
Leather Tax. But he was satisfied that the remission of taxa.-
tion could not be carried any further.
Mr. CURWEN said the explanation of the Right Hon.
Gentleman did not satisfy him : he therefore trusted that the
Right Hon.. Gentleman would consent to the discussion of the
Measure on Monday.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIiS, the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. a GILBERT, the conversation
dropped.
KENTISH PETITION.

Mr. HONEYWOOD rose to present a Petition, agreed to
at the late Meeting of the County of Kent. It had been agreed
to at one of the most numerous and respectable meetings ever
held in the county. The' Subjects it touched upon were the
Distress of ,Agriculture, Parliamentary Reforrh, and it also
called for a reduction of the National Debt. He regretted the
introduction of the last passage ; but, he had •no doubt it would
have been rendered unnecessary, had Ministers adopted an
economical practice of expeuditure. The rest of the petition had
his entire support.
The Petition was then read, and on the question that it should
lie on the table,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL said, he agreed in the
numbers and respectability of the Meeting. s His Hon. Friend
bad admitted that the most objectionable part,of the Petition
met with his reprobation ; and he therefore thought it proper
to state the circumstances ,through which it had found is way
into the Petition. The Meeting had been called at the 'in-
stance of the great Whig leaders. Distress was not so much
the subject of discussion as Parliamentary Reform-. He dif,
fered from the Meeting in their opinion on this subject ; but
this was only admitting a fair .difference of opinion. How-
ever, after a Petition had been agreed to, a person, whom
he supposed he must call a gentleman, for he said he was
a freeholder of the county, proposed that part of the Peti-
tion about the National 'Debt, and suggested it as a Rider
to the Petition. A pause ensued, on its being proposed, and
at length the motion was seconded. It was opposed by a No-
ble Earl, who no doubt considered the character and conduct
of Cobbett the proposer, as worthy of the reprobation of every
honest man. Had his Hon. Friend joined 'at the Meeting in
the disapprobation, he had no doubt this disgraceful motion
would not have been adopted. He (Sir Edward) had asked
what was proposed by the petition ; whether it was a change of
men or a change of measures ; but no one gave him a satisfac-
tory answer, except Colobett, who boldly said, that its object
was the 'reduction of the National Debt. He must be permit-
ted to say, that the great Whig leaders would have done better
to give up the petition altogether, than adopt it with such a
proposal. He concluded by protesting in the name of the county
against the idea that that suggestion contained the sentiments
of the great body of the Freeholders.
Mr. HONEY WOOD admitted that the Meeting originated
with the Whig leaders; but it was attended by the most re-
spectable individuals of the. county, who were of party. He
repeated that he disapproved of that part of the petition which
related to the National. Debt

Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished the Hon. Baronet had
taken the sense of the meeting on thii part of the question ;
especially as he thought it was against the opinion of the great

body of the Freeholders. He should himself take the first op-
portunity of renewing his proposal on the subject of Parlia-
mentary Reform; though he was not decided as to the time
when he should do so, or the shape in which he should put it.
Upon the objectionable part of the petition,, he begged to say,
that he knew of no such thing as a just reduction of the Na-
tional Debt.—(Cheers!)—lt was a subject altogether uwon-
nected with Parliamentary Reform. The country was bound
in honour to discharge the debts contracted by the Parliament.
Nothing but the most overwhelming and admitted necessity
could induce him to consent to a reduction by law of the Na-
tional Debt; and he was satisfied there was no such necessity
for it at present.
Sir E. KNATCH BULL explained.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he was not in the
House when the Petition was presented; and he hoped its re-
ception had not been opposed ; for however strongly he repro-
bated the paragraph in question, he thought that did not afford a
reason for rejecting the petition. lie orily trusted that it would
warn other counties against being betrayed into such dis-
graceful conduct as that which marked the proceedings at the
Kentish Meeting. He had heard with satisfaction, though not
with surprise,' the sentiments of the Noble Lord opposite on the
proposition of the petitioners respecting the National Debt.
He never -supposed that the Noble Lord would support so
flagitious and degrading a proposal; but the Noble Lord
would forgive him for remarking that he was sorry to hear the
terms, " consent," and " overwhelming necessity" mentioned
together as applicable to such a suggestion. He thought
these terms when connected might be thought to counte-
nance an idea of the necessity of the measure of spoliation
proposed by the petitioners. He conceived that the rights of
the public creditor were as inviolable as those of the family of
the Noble Lord himself to their large possessions.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—The public creditor had as -good a right to his debt, as
the Duke of Bedford to his manors—(Cheers) ;—and the neces-
sity alluded to by. the Noble Lord, which would call for the re-
duction of one, must destroy the safety of the other. It must
be a necessity which would make the measure in question one
of pure violence. With regard to that part of ,the petition
which called for Parliamentary Reform, there could of course
be no objection to it.; but ,he trusted the paragraph in this
petition, respecting the National Debt, would prove a .warning
to Parliamentary Reformers, when they thought proper to
attend Meetings of this description. Whatever vices might be
attributed to the Parliamentary Representation, he trusted
that House would be able to exercise a calm and dispassionate
judgment of the subjects brought under its consideration, and
to distinguish between the fair and legitimate complaints of the
.people, and the menacing proposals of dishonourable men.
Lord JOHN. RUSSELL said that the necessity to he
alludes/was that which would attend
,our being invaded by a
foreign enemy, and finding it unable to raise the means of op-
posing him without a temporary suspension of the payments
made to the national creditor.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he thought there
was no good, and there might be danger in anticipating a ne-
cessity, and then raising an argument upon it. He was really
sorry the Gentlemen of Kent had not rescued themselves from
the stain which was affixed to them by this Petitio'.'.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was willing to'retract the
Word consent," if the Noble Marquis wished it. He really
had no idea that the Noble Marquis was such a critic in lan-
guage.7(A laugh.)—lle believed the proposal contained in
the Petition had been hastily adopted by the Meeting, whose
feelings were carried away by the sufferings they experienced
in consequence of the measures of the Noble Marquis.
Mr. CALCRAFT said he was perfectly satisfied that bad the
two Hon. Members for Kent expressed at the Meeting the in-
dignation they had expressed in that Rouse at the proposal in
question, there would not have been found 50 persons to sup-
port it. It was adopted, he had no doubt, in perfect ignorance
of its effect, and probably many who voted fur it had not even
heard it read. He was sure that had the consequence of the
adoption of this proposal heenyointed out and explained to the
Petitioners, the Gentleman who proposed it, who had never
before attended a County Meeting of Kent,. and who was not
before known as a freeholder of the County, would have been
desired, to take his horse and take himself away. This pro-
posal destroyed the value of the rest of the Petition ; though he
denied that it conveyed the sentiments of the Freeholders of
Kent, or indeed of the persons who attended that Meeting.—
Had he known that such a proposition would have been sub-
mitted, he should have attended the Meeting. In fact he at
the time in question was attending his duty in that House, en-
deavouring to get a repeal, of the Salt Tax; though he now had
reason to believe that he had better to have been at Maidstone.
He thought it was the bounden duty of the 'Gentlemen who at-
tended the Meeting, to explain and resist :the proposal ; and
that it was no excuse for them that it came upon them suddenly.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL explained.
Mr. JOHN SMITH expressed his conviction that the re-
spectable Gentlemen of the County of Kent would never ad.:
visedly support such a proposition as that now offered for the
consideration of the House. Indeed, it was to him a matter
of severe mortification to find that the Kentish Freeholders were
the first to petition for a violation of the publiefaith.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, the object of the Noble Marquis,
as well as that of'the Hon. Baronet, appeared to throw blame
on the Whig Leaders.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said across the table, that he had
merely expressed his regret at the line of conduct they had
taken.

Mr. BROUGHAM said he would take it as stated by the
Honourable Baronet. The Honourable Baronet regretted
then. Blame was generally conveyed in the most cutting
manner by the expression of regret at a man's conduct; be-
cause while it professed to leave the purity of his motives un-
questioned, it directly arraigned the soundness of his under-
standing. The Noble Marquis also appeared to aim an attack
through the sides-of this meeting upon County Meetings in ge-
neral ; for if the sentiments of the County of Kent were to
have no value, he knew no other which could lay the slightest
claim to probity or intelligence. It was impossible, however,
that the charge against the 'Whig Leaders, and that also against
the Meeting, could both be sustained. If the Meeting were to
blame, the
_Leaders escaped ; but if the Leaders were to
blame, the Meeting must escape. Both attacks could not
exist together' with any appearance of reason. The Whig
Leaders, however, were clearly exculpated ; for a Whig
Nobleman opposed the objectionable proposal, and he and his
friends voted against it. Blame, for factious purposes, had
been thrown upon them ; but they had given • their decided
opposition to the proposal, and more could not be expect-
ed of them, He (Mr. Brougham), had their authority for say-
ing, that in their belief the opinion of the meeting was 'so de.
cidedly in favour of the proposal, that all opposition to it
would be ineffectual. He certainly believed, that had the
meaning and the consequences of this proposal been fully ex-
plained to them, they would not have adopted it ; but he did
not think the adoption of it took aray, from the value of the
rest of the petition. The distress of the petitioners, and of
which they complained,. could not be denied, for it was noto-
rious; and he begged to deny that, in consequence of the
adoption of this proposal' by the Kentish Meeting, men of
weight and character ought to withhold their attendance
and support from county meetings. He trusted the counties
of England would continue to meet, to describe their sufferings,
and to protest against the system of misgovernment which had
occasioned them. And with regard to the preservation of na-
tional faith, lie thought that the more the question was dis-
cussed and sifted to the bottom, the more was public credit
likely to be sustained.—( Hear, hear!)—He perfectly agreed
that nothing but that state of things which altogether preclud-
ed comment should induce Parliament to listen for a moment
to the crude and undigested proposal which had found its way
into this petition.
Mr.. CALCRAFT explained.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, he exerted himself to point
0a the tendency of the proposition in question ; but the meet-
ing would not listen to him—(A laugh.)
Mr. HONYWOOD explained, but we could not distinctly
hear the explanation. We understood him to say that a Noble
Friend of his would also have explained the consequence of the
proposal, had it not been that he was fatigued by being squeezed
up in a waggon at the meeting.—(A laugh.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he believed the
Whig Leaders would be little thankful for the defence which
had been made foe them by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
But he (the Marquis) was in the judgment of the House, whe-
ther he had said any thing to discourage the holding of County
Meetings.
Mr. EROUGHAM said, that however objectionable or un-
just the proposal of the petitioners might be, it was not more
so than the policy of the Noble Marquis respecting the Restric-
tion 'of Cash Paythents, and the subsequent Resumption of
them.—[Here there was a general cry of " Spoke, spoke V.' and
the Hon and Learned Gentleman sat down.]
Lord CLIFTON raid, he admitted there had been a want of
spirit among the Whig-Leaders, on the occasion in question.—
(Cheers.)—He would, humble an individual as Ile was, have
addressed the Meeting on the subject of the proposal in ques-
tion, had he not beet induced to forbear doing so by the opi-
nion of a Noble Relative of his. But notwithstanding the ob-
noxious ryder to this petition, he trusted, the House would not
consider the whole of the petition as without value. How Mr.
Cobbett had got possession of the Meeting it really was impos-
sible to imagine. He (Lord C.) for one condemned the propo-
sal as one of a revolutionary character.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the manly and becoming acknow-
ledgment of the Noble Lord was a better defence for the Whig
Leaders than that which had been made for them by the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman.—(Cheers.)-Why Mr. Cobbett had
got possession of the Meeting was evident enough,—he had
boldly and manfully stated his proposal. The charge against
the Meeting was not that they had made the proposal contained
at the end of the. Petition. The Leaders were highly. blame.
able for not coming forward and meeting Mr. Cobbett in argu:

ment. It was no defence for them that one of them was tired.
and squeezed in a waggon. The proposal was undoubtedly
crude and undigested, -hut it was manly and direct ; and he
preferred even that to the insidious observations which went
forth to the world, that though that proposal was bad, the Par-
liament had adopted measures which were worse.
Mr. BENNET said he was surprised that -the Right go.
Gentleman was desirous to do away the disgrace which at-
tached to the pillage in the first instance of the public creditor,
and the pillage afterwards of the public debtor, which had
been committed by the Government. These profligate andf
abandoned examples had corrupted the honest feelings
the country ; though after all he did not believe that the pro-
posal in question could be considered as the act of a discussing
body.
Mr. WESTERN said, he was surprised at the consummate
assurance of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in denounc".
ing the people of Kent for an expression coming from then'
in the depth of their misery. The meeting was most respect'
able, and he believed it was not Mr. Cobbett who wrung tae
obnoxious expression from them ; bnt that it was of their own
accord. He believed too, that ,it was not their opinion alone'
but that of many of the most respectable people of t':
country, and was gaming ground so fast, as to endanger toe
peace and tranquillity of the country.,
Mr. HUME contended, that the words of the Petition, cal"
ling for a just reduction of the interest of the debt after dig
reform of that House, could be construed in fairness to mean „-
n
more than a similar reduction to that lately made by thesCli";
cellor of the Exchequer. ThellWhigs had been accused, bitla
he complained of the Tories as the enemies of the country, 3'4,
those who were the cause of all the evils under Which it w 3
suffering.
Sir F. BURDETT thought it was very hard that his 01:;'
Friend, the Member for Kent (Mr. Honeywood), should
e,
fallen upon in the way he had been by both sides of the Wilts.::
in consequence of his omission to do what few of the most eijo
perienced public men would have had presence of mind to
in his situation. It was plain that his Hon. Friend was a,
whelmed by a sudden ebullition of popular feeling.
of all did he think his Hon. Friend's colleague (Sir E. Kna
bull) had any right to censure him, when he, the Tory er;
ber for the County, and known to be hostile to the proceeding
altogether, did not manfully go forwird to do. IN ith resin'
to the merits of the Petition, he did thltik' that, it was not athe
fair to stigmatize the people in the way they had been for t
proposition the Petitioners had made.- He-hoped the IPti
would not allow the Noble Marquis opppsite to put thentintii
state, of hostility, with the people. The people had a rig" for
canvass any question as to the just amount of anydebts
ion
which they were burdened ; and in expressing their
oil the result of their deliberation, they were not to be Wl'
with dishonesty. They thought they had a right to see Vie'
trenchment carried to the utmost extent ; and whatever
Noble Marquis might tell that HouSe on,the subject, the idiots
ple would not be his dupes in schemes that almost
could see .through. They knew that they now received ;a
where they before received .505., and therefore they wished tjis-
y
the debts should be settled in the same way. If that was b
honest, let the Right lIOn. Secretary shew that it wag s 0 e
his arguments, and not give abuse instead. Hlwould &lam,
' people reasonable, and ready to do the utmost, in what t the
conceived a just and fair course. He did not mean to slf
Right Hon. Gentleman was not right—he had opinions 0 eO,
own on the subject, and certainly should never advise tbeyte.
pie to act in a way that was not right and honest. Ile re.
lieved there was to be no opposition to the Petition being
ceived.—(Hear, hear !)
iv
Mr. MANNING said a few words which were inaudible
the gallery, of
Mr. MONCK was as anxious as any man for the surence
public credit. He thought, however, that some dle
should be made between the old creditor of 1797, who cle=
advances to the State in a metallic currency, and the new,oses
tutor, who paid in a depreciated currency. These two °these
of men had claims of a different nature and amount. For -
reasons it was that he voted for a revision of the currencPon
Mr. T. WILSON defended the changes which ha" —dis-
place in the currency, and denied that any of the present
tresses were ascribable to them. 4.ering.
Mr. G. E. PHILIPS said, that, however great the SW' vle
at present were, they would, be much increased, if be
turned to a state of depreciation of the currency, in whic
contended, all the evils originated.
Mr. LOCKHART said, that when Oliver Crorrvekrett
no provisions in his camp he voted a general fast ; so ;pee
there was no gold in the country that House voted thatZela.
was equal to gold. Keeping this in view he thought it, ctiva
seem, rather hard to call men rogues who asked for a re"oter
of the interest of the national debt, seeing how little the in
was understood. -e in
Mr. J. MARTIN believed that the objectionable tau'fall
the Petition'came from persons who were ignorant of iCitheut
import, and he hoped the House would not separate 'Ol,OO-
corning to an express understanding that they would not sue.
Lion a reduction of she national debt.
After a few words from Mr. D. BROWN, the Petition "I'4
ordered to be laid on the table. '

On the Motion that it be printed,
Mr. BROUGHAM took occasion to observe, that it valsbro
opinion that the principal of the public debt ought not 9'reat
infringed upon, and that it was their duty to ray the iateoll`l
t
as long as they could. He believed they would be able s.s.
this if they retrenched every unnecessary existing ex,t,r,,swal
gance ; but if not, and his Majesty's Ministers were all ooe
to go on in a continued course of wilful extravagance, large
could say how long they would continue able to discsao
their lawful debts. It was in the whole series of ineacseec
with regard to the currency, that the evils felt in the Pr4ary
day were attributable; and when the Right Hon. Seer`t st•
opposite talked of some one making insidious round-al:la tell
tacks on public faith and the public creditor, he won.' were
him to whom that language applied. He, and those Ivlie
then
about him, might settle it amongst themselves, for it «'a tore
b se
who were implicated. It was their measures, as he had co as
observed, which partaking of the nature of rapine and Gent
fraud, were, at once an insidious, unmanly, base, and vi
attack on public credit.—(Hear !)
Gentle-
Mr. Secretary PEEL assured the Hon. and Leaned
man, that of all that he might ever have to object to 0; the
underhand course was one which should not be among' do
number. He did refer to him when he talked of insindTioas'
on the score of necessity against the maintenance of lie be'
faith inviolate; and he alluded to his plans stated at tseces'
ginning of the Session for the reduction of taxation. to
sity might in some cases justify extreme measures, but wo.
ply such a principle in the present case as recommender', Ici
be the same in a public sense as a highway robbery vie°
in a private one.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. BENNET said he was ready to repeat that hi 9 ablic
jesty's Government had committed a cheat upon theoae
creditor, in continuing the fraudulent measure of 1797'he
willing to pay the public creditor, but not more than -to pi
him ; but if he had borrowed 20s. and was called tie icatl'As
30s. he should resist that as a cheat and fraud. His 0,';31,,
Ministers, whilst they talked so much about national ta`;'o49;
public credit, were those who were guilty of the most„,a loPs
attacks upon both. The remembered r acts . would be reemh•l`TH leave
after their names were sweptinto oblivion.. They.w"' after
monuments of ruin behind them, which would exist longoiell
their names were not known but by the record of infaini abi
should explain to after times the authors of the evils
would then press upon them.
The Marquis
prquroistroafeteLdONdisDcOusNsiDonEßnoßr to Ydeidopnyotthreise
lanto4l;'f
the
temper in which the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury C. ;0 sitYi
net) had delivered himself, which, he would venture sons °
were as peculiar to himself as they were rare in Peer, of ret
his station in life. If he meant to become the advoen'- rete"t•
volution and spoliation, he must find a. much better 1,40 t
than what he had put forward that night. When he e3kiag
paying 30s. for 208. borrowed, he must tell him, tha.,al7ll:
the circumstances under which the contract with thei,;c`h,
creditor was made—we having spent the moneY, w,,e'd to
law, was only to be paid initerling money and eg.r` nies
paid off at the end of the war, it would be exercisugeegot.ei
round lt;
dishonest power now to turn and decide upon dio
of their debts. The bargain was made upon clear al!tiv, 106
ligible principles on both sides, and they ought hone"
Englishmen, to perform their parts of the contract. if.oll'.
Mr. BENNET and the Marquis of LONDOI"'
mutually explained.. Pub.
Mr. RICARDO said he had great doubts whether turret t°
lic creditor had benefitted by the changes in the a tt
which had taken place. He thought the people had bat
tcahenvsaasmseantLqeuheestrouogfhtthieaefnoarteutrheeoyfadthopettredown
any stet -aehte
hue
the public creditor, it was a bounden duty of the po ite
to make out a case of grievance. ea
uts. opes
Mr. HUME said, he thought the Noble Marti caata..
ought to look to his acts in another country before nl revaalet
his Hon. Friend, the Member for Shrewsbury, win one
tionary conduct. Ile challenged him to point out oeiflis
debtssair,_sl,
of diihonesty in the public or private conduct of P`_t
Friend. The Noble Marquis's war-whoop had lon.f,_'was nte..
'pine and revolution ; but, like the boy in the fable,
now listened to. He thought they had no right to touch
public creditor at all..
Mr. BENNET and Lord CLIFTON also said
DO"
in explanation.
pets 0n
ye • was
Mr. HONEYWOOD, on moving that the pen who
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explain.ed.a few 01.0
e
.to
e in th
adw,asraeida.
tthheatinthteenretiownastonionttroondeupeeertshoen
petition.—The Petition was then ordered to be pr teu•
the '-
Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that when
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE, IRELANik '89t44
cilnauthseeoblntLe

1