The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-03 00:00:00

-
House.—( Ironical opposition cheers.) Hon. Gentic Ate
posits might, perhaps, think that right—( More Abe
did not blame them ; but what hesaid was, that once anuld
tie/
doctrine propounded by the Right Rev. Prelate, 'tied eel
would not be acting consistentlj unless they exPell bear.)
Roman Catholic Member from that House.—(Hoar, °f the
He knew of no such person as one called a npresentati!eus,., to,
people, and at the same time not at liberty conscientioes.''..,
express his opinions on questions affecting their inter.
etopi.
(Hear.) Was a Roman Catholic Member to go hY tbl,ber to
nion of the majority or the minori7N, or was he netrtt
trust to his own judgment as his o'nly safe guide Totested
the only guide for a Member of that House, and he
toobat
against every other.—( Hear, hear.) Again, lie asked' testant
standard was he to refer? If the opinions of the Pr° advert
Members were assumed to be the standard—he did not
Id the
to the subject in the way of a taunt—but when he fou, con-
Hon. and Learned Recorder for Dublin supporting t
;bat °f
position principle of this Bill, after having oppose tolcc
1834, how was he to know what changes might her at' fie
place in the views of the Hon. and 'Learned Mernbcr'ctio
had heard Hon. Members opposite denounce the eduica Do
system in Ireland as anti• Christian, yet lie found them !rid to
longer denouncing it. How then was it possible to coy
to the!`jo the
Roman Catholic Members not to vote according
science ? If he wanted a still more convincing illustra!l,o, the
conduct which had been heretofore putsued as regardloa
question of Emancipation furnished hint with it, forbed forth
the Right Rev. Prelate, whose expressions had ea"e,
these remarks, opposing in 1807 the measure \Vhieh
da
ported in 1829, when brought forward by his politicall
In truth, there was no standard of opinion 09 suclintaint
jects ; and he repeated that it was impossitle to Olialci Ito
as regarded the Roman Catholics, that 0:4 scno two
bound by any obligation supposed to be imposed ° d .bat
by the opinions of others.—(Hear, hear.) He denie
close
the adherence to the principle of the appropriatin
involved any attack upon theChurchEstablishmela in the
Long, indeed, would he hesitate before coaling of the
conclusion that the appropriation of surplus riledgq„ pre'
Church to the purposes of education was not a strict 'awe'
testant use of those funds. It had been said thai; die in. upoo
'lance of the Establishment was in point of fact a charr th, of
the Protestant landlords of Ireland, because nine'tentakilig
the landlords of Ireland were Protestants. But, even n the
this statement as fact, it seemed to him a severe satire on
nine-tenths of the proprietors of Ireland, that out of °Poo.
of 600,000/. a year they had not, according to their eof
count, enough to leave any surplus for the purl iose_sroioo
tional education, after having provided religioul i ies..t;Aes
to
fur 850,000 Protestants. How stood the Presilte"-eitbet
this respect ? They were by no means dimini 5030_ their,
in numbers or in zeal, yet they contrived to rottint
al
oiLple
religious instructors for something less. The Pam be;
Ireland found the comparison forced upon tope band
tween the two religious persuasions. On the °ntvo
the Protestant Church required 600,0001. a Year„,hTe f°,.r
vide religious instruction for 850,000 Protestants, " lore'
the same provision for 642,000 Presbyterians a sum that the
than 25,000/. was required. It would not appear td to al
Presbyterians were suffering from their being confitle
small an amount. Did any one sincerely believe that oeb er,
would be made, or the influence of the Protestant CI:et:01y;
tended, by the terrors of writs of rebellion or long
bills of costs ?—( Hear, hear.) He denied that h°
enemy of the Protestant Church, or of the Protestand,4o
gion. He would rather say that the enemy of that. t 7,10
was he who in any way endeavoured, by political Into e.
or otherwise, to raise it to a station which it ought not, vibe:
cupy ; and that he also was an enemy of the hure.ce halo
instead of devoting himself to the spreading (4. Peano tell
good will among men, entered into political strife, aed par
showed himself to be the slave of those bad and bigot dtini
sions which disfigure human nature, and reckless in see sr
any calumny which bigotry and malice could frame k Millis'
noyance of his political opponent. —(Cheers from tue
terial benches.) a oassiag
Sir J. GRAHAM felt himself obliged to ghT
notice to a part of the speech which had • t failltenahldee if
just
Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the subject. A bliuset
the oath of the Roman Catholic Members. He °a" bg"
•elaints' ff
been a strenuous supporter of the Roman Catholic (orobe
had he not felt assured that the Roman Catholic No Fr,
would be bound by an oath as strict as that imposedio it
testant Members, he certainly would not have voted for wig°
(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell.) More than th,,i bl
an Hon. Friend of his, Mr. Wilmot Horton, endeavie.,u'ifelr
a motion in that House to restrict the Roman Cathr,t,i-reh' ha
bers from voting on certain matters relating to the 1-1“-heca
Sir James Graham) would not agree to that motion,
gyre'
he felt that unless they were bound by a general oath, !' theiti
testant Members were, it would not be right to adr PIO!
at all ; while, on the other hand, he was not dispose" lie PP'
any restriction upon their conscientious exercise of t 0
vilege ensured to them. He believed that the gentian% 0
that
admitted had the same hopes and fears beyond the gray lead
himself had, and he was, therefore, satisfied gray
it to their consciences to determine what course the Y would
pursue. Those who framed that oath thought that
lied b 1
be adhered to, and that great caution would be obserrwah
those Hon Members in dealing with subjects conneetevor hi,
the Protestant Established Church.—( Hear, hear.) Forth'
own part he now believed that if those Hon. Merabelts
Roman Catholic faith who had voted for this Bill 'n.gistetl.
ginal state had conceived that its provisions were inconihaff
with the safety of the Protestant Church, they would new iS
supported it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) And he conceived,Loll
having come to an opinion on the probable effects of tu4:006
different from that entertained by him (Sir J. Graham) 1.
Hon. Members had acted with a conscientious regard 7.por
oath which they had taken.—(Hear, hear.) But anothehich
tion of the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend, on "iiired
he felt bound to make comment, was that in which boillecor
how the Hon. and Learned Recorder of Dublin cenlaos tb_jis
cile his vote in 1834 on the titheuestion with his cotellif,-
Bill ? On that occasion he (Sir J. Graham) voted 'el. The
J
Althorp and a great portion of his Majesty's Ministere; as all
opinion of Lord Althorp was, that 40 per cent.lde (Sniff
unreasonable concession to the Irish landlords. cure 'it
J. Graham) now supported the present met. OPti
commutation, because he thought 25 per cell: pli,
the whole a reasonable rate. In some cases, perhaPsPuo see
be too high, and in some, perhaps, too low, but ta 1b
whole it was a reasonable rate. This, however, Was. fllll5
only reason for which he (Sir J. Graham) had vote ct 8 t
the 40 per cent. principle in the measure in question. t by th;
said to be a measure forced upon the Coverall °, iabie_
Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny on conditionw s sisv
he (Sir J. Graham) thought unjustifiable ; but it 4°o e 0
accompanied by a statement that although it g3vei wasita
cent. to the Irish landlords, yet that 32 per cent. on LY 0
be given to the Protestant Clergy, and that 125,0° d.
be appropriated in lieu from the, Consolidated Fun ig
(Sir J. Graham) considered this a preposterous fa---e
large
most unreasonable demand—one which took (00 0p006.1
grant for the Irish landlords, and at the same time varrie.;
a great burthen on the country. The Hoe. a,nd Hot thmi
Gentleman asked, however, whether' we thongrutticy tx acs
bonus alone would tranquillize Ireland. why, ' oosilhe
to proceed on that principle, and to shape tl eieheiod,
according to what was expected to tranquillize Xtehlisbe.,o
could tell them that until the Protestant was
Church in Ireland was totally overthrown ther_cocioilhl;
hope of satisfying those who demanded the tried prod° p
tion of Ireland. On this part of the subject he et'Ll
e s,
a witness whose testimony would scarcely be trip
the fet,
showed that there was not the slightest chance that
apnoea
sure would be satisfactory to the Irish people. Ile ifoll• $ nef
a letter from the Hon. Member for Dundalk to the
words
Learned Member for Kilkenny. These wan the
6°l°l •
that Hon. Member on thi subject : 0
What signifies such as settlement of tithes as thcvicci frO
ment Bill offers? 360,0001. a year is still to be 1e
id ether.
him—a small fraction to go to the schools, which w0!......tiat sign;
wise have been paid for out of the national. funds. .Cr
nifies to the poor man whether there are corporatioT /13e.;
corporations, or 12 corporations, or 50 corporationareisiatio..'
signify only as respects the grand principle of just ]What is tra
but what value to him are principles practically ? be wan °+
grand practical principle of British legislation which ta%at'°
That the landed proprietor shall he responsible by deril
under just limitations, for the condition of those w", want°
from him. If ever any country on the face of the eartuocimiont
this provision it is Ireland, and yet the National As% othea
is to take no cognizance of this question. How rnatrlfrele°
matters connected with the rights and interests
° the t:
could be noticed of even greater importance than, for tha
which are stated above, and yet all are thrown ansiaLernion"
purpose of supporting those nonentities which the --
offer in satisfaction of the claims of Ireland." Dundalk'
This was the opinion of the Hon. Member for aging'
who, with perfect consistency, voted against the third
of this Bill. He was hostile to the proposed eon! no
because he felt that the people of Ireland would ha_cci Mein
neat from it, and he appealed to the Hon. and Learric.s.no,h.
ber for Kilkenny to use his power with that Ministry, 'secure
said, depended on his breath for existence, in order to
mom'
some real benefit to the peole of Ireland. The 0%5 ba!:
ber also said in the same letter—" The poor man ".seieriii-
taught that it was a matter, not of amount, but of e°,"ood oP;
and of duty to his country, against insult, tyrannY,
comes 0
pression. If this principle is to be given up, it .
bethat
fight about straws." The Hon. Member also said tb°s
appropriation clause itself was a matter of indifferenc.e:as
people of Ireland, but that they would remain aft°,rv`. r See
hostile as ever to the Protestant Established Che'"..„set
not the principle done all it could do ? Had it netr
Government of the Right Hon. Baronet the Menthec',' jo sTu e;
worth ?—(Hear, and a laugh)—had it not succeed 'Loral
curing for Ministers the support of the Hon. and nor%
Member for Kilkenny ?—( Hear, hear)—his
very
not ed as
rodia;
support—( Hear, hear)—and had it
binding principle between Ministers and their uTl‘t4Tol'her fet
supporters ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. thei
Middlesex had put the case very strongly
the measures of the Government must accord °
wit cferred;a
ings of the people. The elections had been rwhat djt
when paid fee:o
in the gross: lie would refer to a few in detail. a
fir.)
Nottingham say to the appropriation clause ?--(neit disc
rejected it. What did Merionethshire say to it? /cheers"
garded it.—( Hear, hear.) Essex ?it despised it t°
What did Warwickshire say to that clause? It launjoiber;
ad
soon n.—(Renewed cheers.)—[An Hon. Member :
land !"1—Ay, what did they think of Cumberland 400'
cheering.) He thanked the Hon. Member for that oLubject,
It brought him at once to a ; somewhat melanehats Mareu;
which he was approaching It might be said by ":"-:ne
hers opposite that the cities and gtowns alone con‘alti 000:
true public opinion. A lamented and respected frien_oooo
with whom he had always acted and voted, had bon wt. fle
on account of the part he had taken on this very subjechad the
had‘ her for
represented the city of Newcastle—a city which
lea 00
advantage of a visit from the Hon. and Learned II
sKuipl
pk
oe
rntneyr —0
f(
thep
Ao sdi
mt i
nn
ischt r ea et
irosn) —0
fwi.hoor
dappeared
urntehr :JOSS the