The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-26 00:00:00

THE IRISH STATE PRISONERS.

Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN wished to know whether
there was any truth in the report that the cholera had
broken out in the vessel destined to convey the state
prisoners from Ireland?
Sir GEORGE GREY was understood to state in
reply, that it was true that the cholera had broken ont,
but that other arrangements had been made with respect
to the conveyance ot the prisoners.
Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN then made an observation to
the effect (as we collected) that on one or two occasions
he had opposed the Transportation for Treason Bill, but
would now offer no lurther opposition to the due course
of justice. He thanked the Government for the hu-
manity which they had shown with respect to the pri-
soners, and trusted that such occurrences as had taken
place would not happen again.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Irish
Poor Relief Bill, and the discussion of last night was re-
sumed by
Sir J. WALSH, who moved an amendment on
the first clause, to the following efUt:—" That
from and after the passing of this Act it shall and
may be lawful for the Poor-law Commissioners, and they
are hereby required to divide the electoral divisions of
the several unions in Ireland into such and so many
rating districts as to them shall seem fit; and when the
said division of such electoral division shall have been
duly made by the said Commissioner, each such rating
district shall constitute a separate rating district for the
relief of the poor now resident within the same, and no
pauper or destitute person shall be entitled to relief un-
der this Act or any Act for administering relief to the
destitute poor of Ireland, save and except from and on
account of the rating district, so to be formed as afore-
said, in respect to which his legal claim for relief arises;
and such electoral division, so divided into rating dis-
tricts as aforesaid, shall continue to be an electoral divi-
sion, for all the purposes of election of guardians and of
representation at the board of guardians of the union
within which same shall be situate: provided always,
chat in forming such rating districts the Commissioners
shall, as far as circumstances will permit, have regard
to the ti,undaries ot a e several properties within such
electoral division, so as to f rm the properly of each
proprietor in such electoral division (or in such union,
it they sh3ll so tnink fit) into a separate rating district,
if such property shall amount in rated value to the an-
nual sum of 1,0001; and it the rated vain,' of any such
property shall not amount to the seid sum, it shall be
lawful for the said Commissioners to unite such and so
many of the adjoining properties as to them shall seem
tit, so as to form a separate rating district for the pur-
poses of this Act; and provided also, that no rating dis-
trict to be formed under the authority of this Act shall
exceed in rated value the amount of 3,000/. per annum;
and provided also, that nothing herein contained shall
be construed to limit or prevent the said Commissioners
from forming aey rating districts of any smaller extent
than 1,000/. rated value per annum, if it shall seem ex-
pedient and necessary to them so to do.
Lord. JOHN RUSSELL said that the matter ap-
peared to him to be placed in this form. A debate had
been taking place during the whole night as to the
maximum rate, and the House was then proceeding to dis-
cuss the details, when the Hon. Baronet had risen to
propose the substitution of a rating district for electoral
division, thus getting rid of the whole question.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to enter into the
question of the area of the districts.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Baronet had introduced a clause which gave
every encouragement to landlords who possessed more
than a 1,0001. a year, and every discouragement to those
who had less. In England there were about 200,000
landlords, and the average of income was about 2001 a
year. He hoped the House would not enter into the
question of the size of the area.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that if the Noble Lord
did not wish to enter into a discussion he should not
have acquiesced in the truth of the statements which had
been made by the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down.
—(Hear, hear.) He must say, however, from the op-
portueity which he had had of judging in Committees
up stairs, that if the area of taxation were not dimi-
nished the number of bankrupt unions would be very
Tanen increased. 'lsNwas e question ef considerable im-
portance! to him as an Irish Landholder.
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON made some remark, which
we did not catch.

Lord CLEMENTS said be thought that the
Boundary Commissioners had acted in the best way.
Mr. S LAFFURD said that if the substitution which
had been proposed were to take place he thought that
the Commissioners would be able still to retain the same
number of poor-law guardians.
Mr. CON OLLY said that he had understood that
the diminution of the area of taxation would be un-
just for the small holders of land ; he thought it would
be as well if the Noble Lord at the head of the 14overn•
ment would make some distinct statement on the subject.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had not stated
that the particular principle of this reduction would be to
prejudice the small landholders.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD thought that the
discussion at the present time was very inconve-
nient to the House. Still pauperism in Ireland was
time for raisingnot to be put down by some strong measure, and he
thought that the reduction of the area of taxation was
in
such a measure. But it was very inexpedient at the
present, time.
reply,tlilidthat ith
the presentadappeared
dtoi'Shcirmsj:it. °on. WbeAir
theßSt legitimateribfound that several Hon. Gentlemen
who iu
acquiesced with him in several points yet differed
with him here, and as he should be sorry to prejudice
this question, which was one of great importance, he
should not at present press it.
The amendment wis then withdrawn.
Mr. sTAFFORD considered that the House having
duetci,ded by a large majority in favour of a maximum
e
the question now was as to what
the amount of that maximum rate should
r
be. Mr. Twisleton had recommended that
it should be 7s. in the electoral divisions, without a
union rate. He would therefore move that that recom-
mendation should be adopted by the House. As a
maximum bad been edopted, there must neces-
sarily be a fund somewhere, and he was
of opinion that such supplemental fund should
be raised bya national rate on the union, as he could
not see the justice of one part of a union being called
upon to pay the deficiency of another part.
Mr. GROGAN supported the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Northamptonshire.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, taking the rate for the
electoral districts and the union rate also, he did not
think there for a supplemental
fund,
but
ti wouldf
the
eprubpenasinty nejunnefestshitey
Honourable Member
for Northamptonshire was to be adopted, there would be
a necessity of coming on the Consolidated Fund.
Colonel DUNNE objected to the maximum
ra,e being higher than Ss., and supported the
amendment to that effect. He was convinced
that to make it 7s. would be utterly useles=.
He should like to see a maximum rate of 35., and would
support a motion to that effect.
Mr. BERBERT supported the amendment of the
Hon. Member for Northamptonshire. If Honourable
Members supported the proposition of the Go-
vernment they would put a stop altogether
to improvement in Ireland; for no one would be
disposed to give employment to the poor in his own
district if he found he was charged a 2s. rate for the
support of the poor in another district.
Sir G. GREY felt bound to contend that the Consoli-
dated Fund ought not to be made liable to supply defi'-
ciencies in the electoral districts. He contended that
the proper course to pursue was that which was now
proposed, namely, that when the maximum rate was at-
tained in any electoral division, the other divisions of
the, union should then be rated to supply the deficiency.