The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

hear!)—Did the Honourable 'Gentleman not. know that
sailors were not in the habit of being put up in guard-
ships to. become sick and useless ? They were em-
ployed in cruizers upon the coast,- in the • Revenue ser-
vice, to prevent smuggling; and let the Honourable Gen-
tleman look to the state. of our revenue fur the register of
their services. The Hon. Member told them that these five
or six thousand men, instead of buffetting the gales, and per-
forming such services, had been employed in yacht-sailing,
pleasure voyages, and conveying storekeepers' families to
town. Here the Hon. Member had forgotten his geography
too. Was there no service to be performed -by the navy in
-the Mediterranean ? Had he forgotten that our interests in
Sonth-America required looking after. And did he not re-
member that to get to that station it was necessary for our
fleets to double Cape Horn ? If 'the Hon. Member knew all
this, why did he not mention it? There was the dangerous;
service upon the coast of Aftica too, where so many lives were
sacrificed. Was that a description of service'which deserved
to be classed with yacht sailing and pleasure sailing ?—(Hear,
hear,' from • the Oppositions)—Why then did not the Hon.
:Member state that those services were performed ? Gentle-
men did not cry " Oh ! Oh !" when they heard the Hon•
Member making his statements, but they were very ready to
cry out- now the ridicule of the thing was exposed.—(Loud
cheering.)—He did not wish to misrepresent the Hon. Mem-
' ber—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition benches)—that
would indeed be a piece of the most gratuitous malice. Where
there was such an abundance of missstatement, to misrepre-
-sent for the purpose of making more appear, would be an
Unexampled specimen of bad taste.—(Laughter.)—The lion.
gentleman then described the service' as being nothing but
-yacht and pleasure sailing in summer;• and even when his
Friend suggested the foreign stations to him, he was disposed
to throw them overboard.—(Alatigh.)—He thought he had
now shewn the House that upon these two points, the Hon.
Gentleman had advanced nothing which ought to prevent
'their going into the Committee. He then came to-the Hon.
.Member's complaints and calculations, as to the expence of
.the Marines. tie stated that to amount to 350,000L0ne half
-of the sum voted for the pay of the whole Navy. Thus the
Government, whose favourite service was the Navy, only kept
it upon the same footing as the Marines. The House would
recollect that this was the exact statement of the-Hons Mem-
Iter. Hi would now tell them how the 'Wm. Member made
his calculation : he took the whole expences of the Matines,
sedges, clothing, beer-money, and every description of ex-
pence which they created, and deducted the whole from
the wages alone of the Navy.---(Hear, hear, hear!)—This was
certainly the must extraordinary and incredible mistake that
he had ever known ; and if the suns had not conic out. right,
he should not have believed that even the senses of the Hon.
Gentleman himself could* have been subject to such a delu-
sion.—(Hear, hear, heat.)—He first took the wages of the
Marines, which ought to have been the only thing to deduct
from the 600,0001., and then he added all the other contin-
gent expences, and came to the conclusion that 900,0001. paid
'the expences of all the Navy afloat. He might as well have
taken the ot her 300.0001. from-the sums allowed for the build-
ing of churches, and after adding it to the wage: of the ma-
rines, have pronounced that the navy had no money at all for
its support.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.!)—lt would
have beets just the same thing as hringitig in the heads of ex-
pences to which he had adverted.—(Hear, hear, from the Op-
Position !)—The House did hear, and he was glad that it did
so, and trusted that it would examine for itself, and detect
the mistatements which came.befure it in such a palpable
shape. The next thing to which he had to call the attention
of the House was, to what the Hon. Gentleman said about
the Navy Paymaster in London. There was a Colonel, and a
Captain Somebody, receiving 2,7001. a year for holding this
office. Would the House believe that, after all they had
heard about this business, there was no such thing in all these
Estimates at all ? By some mistake or other the Hon. Gen-
tleman hat' taken this story from the Ordinary Estimates of
the Navy. And this, the House would recollect, was one of
his strongest points. " What," said he, " put an Officer in
London into such a situation, with a Secretary, an Aide-
de-esarep, and I know not what, as Paymaster of the Navy
that was afloat." If Hon. Members would turn to the Ordi-
nary Estimates, they would find the item in its regular place.
—(Cheers !)—The Hon. Gentle Man was not for increasing
the Navy, and reducing the Marines. Now some people were
very difficult to be pleased. It was only a few years ago, since
some gentlemen opposite were crying out to increase the Ma-
rines. There ought not to be that distinction which the Hun.
Member desired to draw between Seamen and Marines. The
latter were,and must bean integralpart of the Navy. The Hon.
Gentleman would take two thousand men front the Marines;
and give that number to the Navy. So wedded was he to the
Navy, that be was willing to add to itsstrength at the present
time. Now he begged the House to.consider of the policy
• of this proposition, by considering the situation and circuits-
Stances pf the two services. Soldiers, when they entered the
services entered it for life ; whereas Seamen had their choice
of remaining or [not at the expiration of three years. Let
them look, then, at the purchase which the Hon. Gentleman
Proposed fur his 2000 additional seamen for three years ! it
was 2000 marines for life. The difference betwixt himself
and the Honourable Member was, that the latter wished to
• lay out his money upon a short lease, while he would expend
it upon a long one.—(f:ear, hear !)—The difference in the
expense of the two services seemed wholly to leave escaped
hilt notice. The cost of a seaman was seventy pounds a man,
While that of a marine was about forty. But our political
economist would sell one raw material which was at forty,
in order to purchase !another raw material which was at
seventy. The Hon. Gentleman had said, that in the year
97, seamen were maintained at 41. a man per month,
Whereas now each man cost 61. 10s. But, let the House net
conceive that 41. per man hail been sufficient for the support
?I. the Navy in 1792, a period to which every thing seemed to
lee referred. Two millions of additional grants were in that.
Year made to the Navy. If they looked to the Journals of the
Rouse for that year, and made the necessary allowance for
the changes which had taken place in the country, it was as-
'lnlishing to see how near the proportion of our naval
pproximated to those of that period. If Gentlemen
ex-
tied,tu they would find that for the year 1792, the Estimates
Tor the Navy amounted to 1,800,0001 But there was another
grant made within the year for 131,0001. and a grant of
635,0001. out of the surplus of the preceding year. And
notwithstanding these two grants, ' at the end of the year
'the !Navy debt was increased about 470,0001. making the
Whole 'expences of the Navy amount to 3,236,0001. The
total of our demand for the present year was 3,310,0001.7.
riots the Estimates were not bona fide 100,0001. more than
those for 1792. With regard to the Ordnance, let the
""nourable Gentleman go fairly into a Committee. That
' l
;).41 theltaee Where they could att le out his charges wit
'nl face to face, and that wouldb be the place to detect the
'enormities which he declared to exist. He was astonished
1° hear the Hon. Gentleman complaining of naval officers be-
n; made-generals and colonels in the marines. He was 'sur-
"feted that any objection could be made to that method of
.elttiowledhis Mging the services of distinguished men. It was
!setter for ajesty, instead of rewarding them with pen-
41°°s, to place them at the head of the glorious corps whom
they had often led on to battle and conquest. But then the
s °Pourable Member was afraid of the extent to which these
,g)Pointruents might be carried. What was the extent which
Hon. Member dreaded at present ? Out of 200 Flag-Of-
seers, and es or 900 Captains, three Generals, and four Colo-
-llels Isere appointed, at an income of 6or 7,0001. The insti-
:tion which placed natal officers at the head of the marines,
IP to-existent with the appointment of the marines itself.
net corps was originally formed from the army, and the Co-
:!tels of the regiMents, being, as it were (he used the word
Ititout any offensive meaning) sinecurists, it was thought
t;tore consistent to place sailors in the honorary situation of
mending the corps. Before they swept away these regu-
,s,"ons, they must be prepared to alter the system of colonel-
cies throughout the army. And if they did that, be would go
'antler, and say, that they ought even then to make an ex-
'ePtion in favour of the naval officers at the bead of the ma-
,t,'Pes. But, said the Hon. Gentleman, hod men might be ap-
pointed. Now bethought it would not be too tedious to the
utise for hint to read half a page, which contained the names
~f
those officers who had held the situations in question. • He
Sstet read the Generals,—There was Admiral Boscawen, Ad-
j Tiral the llon John Forbes, Admiral Barrington, Lord Clive,
to
rd Viscount Bridport, and last, and present, long may he
-°ntinne to be so, the Earl St. Vincent.--(Cheers.)—Theress s the list of the whole of them, and let the House see what
"!'n Wet the danger of having bad men in that situation. 'He would
pls. read a list of Lieutenant-Generals.—Sir C, Saunders, Sir
PYes Lord Viscount Bridport, and the Earl of St. Vincent;
1. again, the Major-Generals were, Lord Gardiner, Lord.Col-
-sw,esd, Sir It. Bickerton, Sir G.' Hope, and last, a name
Which he honoured with more than ordinary respect, Sir G.
loockburn. Were these names which•should Make them jea-
,°.! of conferring this honour upon Naval Officers ? They
ore, Men loaded with pensions, stars, and dignities, many
,ineto with peerages ; " and, Sir," (addressing him-
;`" to the Speaker,) " most of them haring' received `the
..:Phs of your predecessors from that Chair."—(Loud cheers.)
_SR! this upon which the Honourable Gentleman would
ri,tatbe finger of reform, was but 'one star of the bright
'a_lwxy of British glory--(Cheering)--He trusted that he bad
137__eseaid enough to'persuade the House to go into a Com-
et • The wisdom of our ancestors had instituted the
should
as the place -where the details of the supplies
'Quid be ven and discussed. But the Hon. Gentleman,
Under the pretence-of •wanting information, did all he could
to shut
it ont—(Loud cries of heat !)—by Opposing the re-
.g_ttiarcourse of business. Did be hope-,- when in a Committee,
should expect
gut that Gentleman 'aatisfaction.! God forbid that he
knew
any thing so preposterous !—(Laughter.)—He
ea that the Hon, Gentleman did not wish him to expect

such a thing. flat let him at all events abide by the practice
of Parliament. Let him go into the Committee, and there
would be the opportunity for all his objections to be made
and met fairly and openly; and even if the House should'
be so unreasonable as to go against his opinions, he would
again have a time for renewing his attempts-to convince them
upon the bringing up of the Report. God forbid that he
should say, that if there was a case of abuse, the Hon.:
Member should not bring that particular case forward ; but
let him confine himself to it. Let him not think of taking
the whole of the Navy into his own hands. According to his
motion, his present wish was, that his Majesty should give
an account of all officers and men on board the fleet afloat,
with other information, which was against the practice of all
time, and against the Constitution.—(Hear from the Opposi-
tion.—)He would tell Honourable Gentlemen why it was
against the Constitution. The Constitution provided that
the operations of the fleet should he ordered and directed
by'the King in Council with the Admiralty. Even the Mi-
nisters had no official means of knowing the commands given
by the King, except through the First Lord of the Admiralty,.
who held a seat in the Cabinet. He contended, therefore,'
that it was unconstitutional to call upon the 'Crown for the
information required by the motion of the Hon. Memtier. If
the Parliament consented to go into details of the fleet afloat,
as was now proposed, they would be affording a precedent
for: a practice which, if once established, would be a great
inconvenience in time of peace, and in time of war destruc-
tive to the power of the British Navy, and with the Navy
to the very existence of great Britain herself.—(The Hon.
Gentleman sat down amidst loud and continued cheering.)
Mr. BENNET said, that one might suppose from the speech
of the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty, that his Hon. Friend
had-askerrfor something which would tend to inflict a great
injury or disgrace on the nation. With great ingenuity and
abilities none could doubt, that Hon. Gentleman had entered
into a long' speech, from which the only real inference was,
that the Hun. Gentleman had found a mare's nest, for he
had, instead of combating the arguments of his Hun. Friend,
found a subject on which he had descanted at great length.
The Hon. Gentleman had contended, that the nation and the
House ought, without inquiry or investigation. to give credit
to, and place confidence in his Majesty's Ministers, as if they
had been the source of much good to the nation. Yes; that
good had been enormous taxation, an enormous, debt, and an
extravagant expenditure, which was the object of the Hon.
Gentleman's panegyric, although the supporting that system
formed one of the articles of accusation brought by the coun-
try against the House of Commons. The Hutt. Gentleman
had not only in that House, but also elsewhere, direCted his
attacks against his Hon. Friend, but those attacks were use-
less. He should desire that the motion and the 'amendment
should be read.
The SPEAKER read from the Chair the motion and the
amendment:

..Mr. BENNET then proceeded 'to contend, that the House
had, on the 6th of March, 1818, given its assent to the pro-
duction of the Estimates of that year, by which means the
House became acquainted with the Navy of that year. How,
therefore, could the Hon. GentlematLmaintain, that secrecy
ought to be kept up ? Was be not afraid of secrecy ? Why
else bad the Hon. Gentleman quarrelled with the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen ? Whence else had his harsh remarks
arisen ? His Hon. Friend had spoken of the extraordinary
sum denianded for wear and tear of ships during peace. He
would maintain, that his Hon. Friend was right in bringing
that matter before the House. It was objected to him by tire
Hon. Gentleman that he seemed desirous of injuring the
Navy. That was an absurd accusation, for no man was more'
desirous of supporting the Navy than his Hon. Friend. He
did not-desire that the navy services should be injured, but
that the jobbing services should he removed. The topics of
his Hon. Friend had been misrepresented, and blundered
upon by the Hon. Gentleman, .but those misrepresentations
did not reverse the truth of those allegations. .
Mr. CROKER exOlained. With respect to the observa-
tions of the Hon. Member, that he made remarks upon the
Hon. Member for Aberdeen, he could ass.ure the House that
he never made any observations upon !be public conduct of
Hon. Members out of that Hoiase.-.Vitli respect to the
granting of the Estimates in 1918, he-would but remind the
House, that although that grant was but one of four mo-
tions to which alone the House had granted its assent, and
that instead of those Estimates being prospective, they had
beets antecedent ones, for they gave accounts only of the
Navy up to the sd of. March of that year, and of course did
not contain the Estimates for any future time.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House di-
vided—

For the amendment - - - - 54
Against it ' - - - - 144
Majority againSt the amendment --90
On our returning into the Gallery, we .found
Mr. CALCRAFT on his legs. He said that he felt it his
duty to suggest to the Lords of the Admiralty the utility of
making some provision for insane officers. He would not
piopose any motion on the subject, hut merely call,the atten-
tion of his Majesty's Government to it, convinced that some
regulation would be highly beneficial for men`labouring un-
der that dreadful disorder.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he
was sure any proposition of that nature would receive"the
concurrence of his Majesty's Governnicnt,"

Mr.l-lUME ' rose for the purpose of submitting another
motion to the House. The Hon. Member contended that .the
Hon. Gentleman opposite had attempted to answer much of
what he never said, and that he had mis-stated that which he
did say. Besides which, -he had entirely. passed by the chief
point of his Speech. What he insisted upon was, in 1819
we paid only 15,000,0001. for the Service which now required
17,000,0001. This point remained whollY unanswered. It
was, as. his Honourable Friend had stated, in conse7
quence of that blind confidence in Ministers which the ma-
jority of the House was in the practice of granting, that the
nation had gone on year atter year plunging deeper into debt.
It was, therefore, that he thought it was time they should
call for a change, and for a new and a better mode Of trans-
acting the business of the nation. Let' them have the detaili
of what they were called upon to vote of the public money,
always provided that they would not by that means. be fur-
nishing political details to an enemy. But in spite of all the
Metaphor, -and' high -bombastic style of the Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Croker), who undertook to shOw how ignorant
~he (Mr. Hume) was, he had himself .mistaken what he had
said. He (Mr. Hume) bad said, that- the Whole expenditure
of the Nary, wear and tear, was seventeen ; and

this sum the Hon. Gentleman undertook to reduce to five
millions. Why, in one line of the items, ship-building alone,
he would find a total' f 8,530,0001. As to the breakwater at
Plymouth, the Hon. Gentleman did not kilo* what was ex-
pended in that. work. In the Estimates it was 702,0001. and
the lion. Gentleman stated it at a million. By the Estimates
the total was 17,702,0001. whatever it might be in the
mind of the Honourable Member (Mr. Croke* He (Mr.
Hume) had moved for Returns of the Supplies, in order to
avoid flat contradiction, which had been the case when he
bad it not on paper to support his assertions. According to
the Return made to his motion, it appeared that in' 1792, the
number of men for the sea-service was sixteen thousand, and

the supply,-Ancluding Ordnance, amounted to 1,985,4821.—
This was true, or it was not; but if there was any incorrect-
ness in what he advanced upon it, it was not to he charged
upon him, but upon the returns he had received. It was too
much for the Hon. Member to say that the estimates of 1792
had nothing to do with his (Mr. Hnme's) motion. He called
fur details of the enormous sums they were called upon to
vote, and the House would not do their duty if they permit-
ted that explanation to be refused. The Hon. Gentleman
bad admitted the principle of the sinecure list to be hail.—
(No, no, from Mr. Croker.)—Very well, then he (Mr. Hume)
asserted that it was bad. That House was never niggardly in
rewarding meritorious officers ; and the granting of pensions
might be safely left in their hands. After a few more obser-
vations as to the propriety of their having the estimates be-
fore they granted the supply, the Hon. Member moved as an
amendment to the motion for going into the Committee, that
the following words be substituted for the words " that tile
Speaker do now leave the Chair," "That there be laid before
the House returns, stating the prices at which the, provisions
were furnished for victualling the British Navy for the years
1819, 1817, and 1841 ; and of the amount of one entire day's
rations to the seamen • and also how 532,3501. for victualling
the Nary was to be laid out."
Mr. CROKER did not rise to eater into the discussion of

the matters touched on by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen.
He had almost stated all he had 'to say upon the subjects
which his last speeCh embraced. But, so far as the Hon.
Meuiber had made charges of inaccuracy against the public
departments, upon which he wished to lay the burden of his
own mistakes, he thought himself called upon to say a word
or two. The Hon. Member had called_ for a Return of the
Supply voted fur the year 1792, for the service of the Navy,
'and in obedience to that call he had got all he asked for, and

he (Mr. C.) did not see how he could get more., If the Hon.
Gentleman had had any real object in asking for this Return,
he could hare called for an Account of the Naval Eipendi-
tura for that year; but he had lied down the Department
making the Return to an account of the Supply. It would be
in the recollection of the 11Mise that he (Mr. Croker) said,
that the Vote in Supply was above the expenditure for that
year, and if they looked at the Journals, they would Stid it
was so. Therefore, if through a blunder of bia.own in mak-
ing the motion he had been led astray, he mast; blaMe hitn-
-self. Had they, in making up the return, put in the aniotlat
Of the expenditure, it would have been said that theyditliso
for the purpose of blinding the Hon. Member and the House,
and such like objecti. 'The.o.thei-returit he called for *as of
the same nature. It was for the whole expences of the Ma-
trine Corps, to be summed up with wbat be called a total of

the whole. I4ere it appeared the Hon. Member got more
than be wanted, and was equally puzzled, though from a•dif-,
ferent cause.. The Hon. Member .said, the -supplies of 1792
had nothing to do with. his argument. He agreed with him,
but as the Hon. Meinber had' introduced that subject, he
- (Mr. C.) had followed him.(Hear, hear!) •
Colonel DAVIES wished to know whether it svas.the inten-.
lion of the Hon. Gentleman to oppose his. Hon. Friend's mo-
tion on the ground of refississg all Returns . of whatsoever
nature; or on the ground that adopting the course proposed
by his Hon. Friend's motion; it would have the effect of re-.
tarding public basiness. .He could not suppose that this De-
partment meant to refuse what every • other Department bad.
granted, and if it did, why, he asked, was &necessary fur the
Admiralty to involve itself in so much mysterious silence ?
Mr. CROKER said, from the Hen. .G•elitleman's question,
he was•obliged to conclude -either that he was not in the,
House when he had' statedalse view he took of the ease, or,
that he had not paid attention to it. In either case he was
afraid that the House, for the sake of the Hon. and Gallant
Member, would not have the patience to hear bias (Mr.
Crokerl again.
The House then divided, when the numbers were,
For the amendment
Against it
Majority for the- original motion. • —lO4
Upon our re-admission to the Gallery, we found the House
in a Committee of Supply, and,
Sir J. OSBORNE on his making some observations,
which, from the rush of strangers, were not audible the
gallery. He concluded, by'usoving the first resolution, that
21,000 men be granted to his Majesty, for the sea-service' of
the ensuing year, including 8000 Royal Marines.
Mr. HUME said. he must again ask what were the circum-
stances of the country which required that there should be
2000 men more now than in 1817, for the same purpose ?
The reductions that bad been made .io the Navy werernot
owing to the economy of Ministers, but to the sh;ath of Bona-
parte. All their promises of economy.had not produced one
shilling. The number of the mari ars he thought dispropor-
tionate with the number of seamen ; turd he should. therefore
propose, as an ameridment to the resolution, that 19,000 men
be substituted for 41,000.
Sir G. COCKBURN reminded the House that on a former
occasion, when an increase had been made to the number*
the corps of the Royal Marines, he had pointed out the great
value of disciplined Varines to the nation. He would then
repeat, that on the opening of a former war they had suf-
fered materially from the want of a sufficient number of
marines to man the navy with. The consequence was, that
theywere obliged to employ soldiers, to their great dissatisfac-
tion, and to the detriment of the service, for they were all sea-
sick as soon as they got out to sea. Upon This it was thought
better to keep up a huge number of seasoned marines, who
in peace might be employed in doing garrison duty in their
sea-ports. and in the event of war,. be ready to man the ser-
vice.7--(Hear.)—fhey did not want to increase the number of
seamen for the service of the ensuing year, and they were
loth to diminish the body of marines. They might have been
able to reduce more, had it not been far the increased de-
mand from South America and the Mediterranean. and it
should be remembered that out of 13,000 seamen, 1,500 were
employed round the coast for the security of the revenue,
Sir I. COFFIN said a few words in explanation of what had
fallen from him on a preceding night.
Mr. BENNET called on Hon. 'Members to stand by their
constituents and the people of England, in refusing, to vote
for the support of a greater number of men for the sea service
now than there were in 1817. He wished to God the people
of England would luck into that House. He wished to God
they could get possession of the list of Gentlemen on the
other side, who -supported the Ministers in such measures,
that, they might. post them through the country.—(Loud
cheers from the Ministerial Beriches.)—He called upon the
House to- do their duty, according to the promises they had
made,out of doorS. •
SirGEORGE CLERK said, that if Honourable-Members
would look utile other parts of thr Navy EstiMates, they
would see there was a reduction equal to -two millions.—
(Hear, hear.')—He hoped the House would not listen so the
suggestions of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen to reduce any
part 'of that 'useful body of men,"the Royal Marines.
Mr. HUME•referred to the printed Estimates,. which stated
the naval expenditure for 1817 at 5,876,0001.—f0r the present
year 4,890,0001.; so that where the Hon. Member gut his
two millions diminution from he did not ksrow.
Mr. CROKER, said that the Hon. Member had.only. made
a trifling mistake of 671,0001.—(Hear, and a laugh)-having
included in the Expenditure of 1817 that amount which was
charged for Old Stores. .„ .
Mr. HC 11E pledged himself to the House, that he had
quoted the figureS accurately as they appeared in the. Ac-
counts turaished by the Government. The Hon. Member
(Mr. Croker) was, in fact, wrong, fur he added the sum for
Old Stores to the 5,900,0001. when that suns ought to be de-
ducted from such Account.—(Hear, hear!)
Mr; CROKER would give the items for 1817. The Ordi-
nary Estimates were 2,476,1501., from Which was to be de-
ducted for Old Stores • 671.0001.; the Extraordinaries were
1,691,0001. • .t he Transport Service, 261,0001. ; fur 'Wear and
Tear, i 6,492,0001. ._
Mr. HUME repeated that he had.onlyqraeited the Accounts
which appeared on the table of the House.
Strangers were oboist to withdraw for a division, when ,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY-, rose to observe that the
increase which had taken place in the Marines, a few years
ago,.had enabled the Ministers to snake the extensive reduc-
tions in the Army that had recently taken place. The Ma-
rines were enabled also to perform duty at garrisons, arsenals,
&c. and such 'arrangement enabled the Government to make
considerable reductions in the Army.
Sir I. COFFIN briefly bore testimony to' the great utility
of the marine forces; while on service lie had frequently been
an eye-witness of their valise. ,
• The gallery was cleared for a division—the numbers were—
' For the amendment
Against it
Majority against it —lO4
The next vote moved was 593,5791, wages for 21,000 sea-
men and marines. Immediately on the question being put,
the gallery was cleared fur a division, but it did not take
place, and on our re-admission we found
Mr. HUME on his legs, complaining of the confused man-
ner in which the public accounts were kept, and censuring
that part of the vote under discussion which referred to the
Coast Blockade system.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed that
two years ago the annual vote had been reduced by 80,0001.
inconsequence of tbe,reduction 01.15,000 amen, and that there
was thus far a saving to the Revenue.
Mr. HOBHOUSE could not forbear expressing his sur-
prise at the course pursued by his Majesty's Ministers.—
They promised every thing, but granted nothing, and treated
with taunts and sneers those Gentlemen on Isis side of the
House, who were resolved to discharge their duty its defiance
of every obstacle. Seeing that it was impossible to ge any
further without having the necessary Estimates laid upon the
table, be should now move, as an amendment, that the Chair-
man do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
,Lord ALTHORPE objected to the merits of the original
motion, but in so low a tune as not to be audible in the.gallery.
COCKBURN observed, that, front motives of poli-
cy. it would not be prudent to publish all the details, lest an
enemy might at any time take advantage of them to ascertain
the disposition of our navy.
Mr. BROUGHAM; in the course of some observations,
said, he wished to know hose much per man had been grant-
ed before the fall had taken place in the price ut provisions,
now that 11. 19s. per man was called fur since the reduc-
tion ?

Sir G. COCKBURN replied, that the probable Estimate
for the last two years might have been 21. Is. per man monthly.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that the reason given fur not laying
the details of the expenditure before the House, was by no
means satisfactory. At present we had. no enemy to appre-
hend any thing from, and therefore nothing was to be feared
from laying before ie House an account of the disposition
of the navy.
Mr. BERNAL spoke briefly to the same effect, observing,
that the high destinies of the nation could not be endangered
by publishing the details in question. The Hon. Member
then objected to the principle of vesting in the Commissioners
of the Revenue the payment of the men employed in the
Coast Blockade service.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Said a few
wards in vindication of the measure.
Mr. LOCKHART supported the amendment, assigning as
his reason for doing so, the propriety of not agreeing to a
single ,grant, till it ShoUld be clearly shown it could be paid,
considering the peculiar distress that prevailed all over the
country. To vote without this point being first ascertained
would be only to proceed at rafidona.
'After some further conversation; in which Mr. Brougham,
Mr. Croker, Mr. Hume, Lord Londonderry, and. Mr. H.
Sumner took part, the Conimittee divided on the amendment,
when the numbers. Were—
, Ayes - - - . - 47
Noes - - - , 127
Majority in faiour of Miniiters
The original motion Was theti,carried without a division,,
after a few words, from Sir R, Wilson,
,Mr. Brougham, and
the Marquis of Londonderry.
Mr.'GOULBURN brought in a Bill to regulate the Impor-
tation of"Arrirs; "Atornitnition, &C. into Ireland; which was
read the fiist.tirne, and ordered to be read the second time
on Tuesday. . .
Mr.'GOULBURN 'brOught to. indemnify perions 1
who have seized or retained Arms since the Ist November
last in Ireland, for the Preservation of the Public Peace.—

Read the first time, and ordered' to' be read the seeand time
on Tuesday. . , .
The House adjourned at HALF-PAST TWELVE this
morning.

'MAJORITY AND MINORITY.
AGAINST AND FOR LORD ALTHORN'S MOTION,
" That it is the opinion of this House that the Reduction in the
Amount of Taxation proposed by his Majesty's Ministers is
not sufficient to satisfy the just expectatious of the People."—
FEB. 21.