The Sun.
London, England, 1825-03-30 00:00:00

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Yet still an attempt was made to cast imputations on those
who embarked in them, and the schemes themselves were de-
signated as bubbles. He had the honour of being connected
with some of these companies; and he was prepared to meet
the most scrutinizing inquiries as to their objects and mode of
proceeding. He should not at present enter into the great
question ; but on the second reading of the Bill would be pre-
pared to meet the fullest discussion. He trusted also, that he
should interest the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the
Exchequer in the furtherance of those objects, on the ground
of revenue, inasmuch as they contributed very considerably to
the revenue. The Honourable Member concluded by moving
for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Act of the 6th Oeo. 1.
c. 18. (Bubble Act).
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that the Act for
the repeal of which the Hon. Gentleman had moved, applied
to a variety of matters unconnected entirely with that to which
the lion. Gentleman had alluded ; and therefore he hoped the
Hon. Member would not persevere in his motion.
Mr. GRENk'ELIs was exceedingly anxious that something
should, be done to render the real state of the law on the sub-
ject generally intelligible. It was by no means fit or proper that
things should be left as they were. In the course of the last
' week, a Joint Stock Company had been formed, with a Prince
of the Blood at its head. There was another, at the head of
which were a must respectable and venerated individual; the
Archbishop of Canterbury, and the whole Bench of Bishops.
Now, was it fitting that the law should be in such a state of
uncertainty, that these Royal and dignified persons should not
be sure whether they might not have incurred the. penalties of
a prernunire ? He really wished that his Majesty's Ministers
would take up the subject and do something that at least
should render the law intelligible.
Mr. ROBERTSON wished the subject to be set at rest, for
the sake of the public at large, who were quite as much inte-
rested in it as any Royal Duke or Archbishop.
Mr. ELLICE expressed his perfect readiness to vote for the
introduction of the Bill, in order that the subject might be
fairly discussed and disposed of; although he by no means
knew that he should be inclined to agree to its second reading.
In that and the other House of Parliament, liberal views had
been taken of the subject by his-Majesty's Ministers; he meant
by the Noble Lord at the head of the Treasury, and by the
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, who stated that which
appeared to him to be consonant to common sense—namely,
that the public should be allowed to institute what COmpanies
they pleased, but that all attempts at fraud should be punished.
But when, in consequence of these declarations, alarm had in
some degree subsided, his Majesty's subjects were warned
from another quarter against entering into these speculations.
For himself, he thought that many of the new speculations
. would be exceedingly advantageous, and would at least turn
out to be much more beneficial than lending EngliSli capital to
the various Powers of Europe, who had become bankrupts half
a dozen times. What had taken place on this question re.
minded him of what had taken place some time ago with respect
to our trade with the Spanish Colonies. In that and in the
other House of Parliament every encouragement had been given
to that trade ; but in the Court of Chancery the public were
told to take care what they did, for that the Colonies were not
recognised by England. It was the same in this case. In the
Court of Chancery the public were warned from day to day of
the danger of these Joint Stock Companies ; although no ob-
jection was made to them in either House of Parliament.
Some stop ought to be put to this sort of thing. The public
ought to know the real state of the case. There appeared to
him to be no better mode of accomplishing this object than by
allowing his Hon. Colleague to bring in his Bill. If his Ma-
jesty's Government thought it an inexpedient measure, they
would, of course, oppose it ; if not, the Legislature would be
enabled to consider how far it would be wise to repeal or modify
the Act in question.

Mr. P. GRANT observed, that it was evident the object of
the Hon. Member for Coventry could not be attained by this
proposition. He would not then give any opinion on the main
qtfestion ; "but-it appeared to hini to be a subject of great deli-
cacy and importance. He was not prepared to say, if that part
of the Act was repealed which the Hon. Member for Coventry
had in view, what would then be the state of the members of
the Joint Stock Companies by the common law. Although the
Act' of Geo. I. was by no means drawn accurately ; and al-
though for many years it had not been interpreted by decisions
in the Courts of Law, and therefore sonic doubts might exist
respecting it, he was not prepared to say that the Act was not
sufficient for its purposes. He thought, however, that the
House might justly entertain a motion to render the Law more
clear ; and he recommended the Hon. Member to withdraw his.
motion for that purpose. He would, however, earnestly press
on his Majesty's Ministers the importance and delicacy of the
question, the number of persons who were interested in it, and
the expediency of considering the subject in such a manner as
might lead to the framing of a Bill that would answer all the
purposes in view. • 1

Mr. secretary PEEL observed, that the motion of the Hon.
Member for Coventry could by no means be acquiesced in by
the House. The Act of 6th Geo. I. contained 29 clauses; the
first 17 of which had no reference whatever to the subject at
issue. The only way of proceeding would be to refer the Act
itself to the consideration of a Committee.
Mr. GURNEY, in reply to the observation, that these spe-
culations were a mode of applying the superabundant capital of
the country, observed, that many of them originated in persons
Who had no capital at all. It appeared to him that a measure,
.declaring what should or what should not be lawful, would
come with the best grace and effect froin his Majesty's Govern-
ment. It was on all accounts extremely desirable that his Ma-
jesty's Government should take the matter into their own hands,
and propose such a law us would set the affair at rest.
Mr. PETER MOORE said he shauld be extremely glad if
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would take the affair out of
his hands. He had been waiting in expectation that the matter
would be taken up by high authority. If a. Rill respecting it.
wßeurte
absrodulignhgst fworear'ea,rdthien
vaannyosulasicpoen,
)111)eansilei should b
s lossescsiiost
possessing
cahappy.pital
of two hundred and fifty millions, were left at sea, without rutl-
- or compass, not knowing whether they were acting right or
wrong. What they wanted was to act sight. Upon his honour,
hi believed that not one of the Stock Companies, with which
he was connected, had less probity or less stability than the
Bank of England itself. He would never connect himself with
any one of which he did not entertain that opinion. IS'hat they
wanted was to understand the law. It was said that the Bubble
Act did not apply to them, yet they had been threatened with its
operation; and that threat had operated upon them most inju—
riously. Full discussion was what he wished for. Might he be
allowed to -change the word " repeal" the Act, for the words
" amend and alter" it? In 'a case in which so much.property
was afloat, let the matter be settled. Could the-two clauses of
the Act which effected that property be alone considered ? He
believed that the whole Act had been declared by high autho-
rity to be obsolete and a dead lejter, and that it bad been de-
clared, by still higher authdrity, that it could not be carried
'into execution. He would propose to amend his motion by
substituting the words " alter and amend," i'vr the words
" repeal.'

Ageneral call followed to withdraw the motion.
Mr. Ii LIME said, it was evident that something was required
to be done. Unless Parliament interfered, the Lotti Chancel-
lor would go on doubting God knew how long,
Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that when the Hon. Member
for Coventry had given notice of a motion to, repeal an Act, and
had -
that Act, he when it had been shewn him that by so doing the object he
inhim view would
a motionouldnotbe accomplished,g himself,
all"the while, not knowing how to amend it, or iu what part to
prppose the amendment.
to substitute aro it was not competent to
e
.Mr. P. MOORE then withdrew bis motion, and intimated
his intention to bring the subject again under the consideration
of the House after the holidays.
HOLYHEAD ROAD.
Sir HENRY HARNELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the Holyhead Road Act.
After a few observations from Mr. C. PELHAM, leave was
granted.

ADJOURNMENT OP THE HOUSE.
Mr. Secretary CANNING rose, in consequence of a notice
which had been given for him last night by a Right Honourable
-Friend, to move the Adjournment of the House for the Easter
Holidays. We regret to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman
Appeared to be still suffering from the effects of his recent in-
disposition. lie spoke in so feeble a tone of voice that he was
scarcely audible in the Gallery; but we understood him to post-
pone his notice, and to state that he would to-morrow move that
at its rising on Thursday, the House should adjourn to Thurs-
day, the 14th of April. We also understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman to say that the Meeting of the House on Thursday
-would be merely pro forma, in order to enable_ the Hoyi3l-

PRICE SEVENPENCE

sent to be given to several Bills which had passed bath Flows
of Parliament. 4

COMBINATION LAWS.
Mr. HUSKISSON proceeded to move for the 'appointment
of a Select Committee to consider the effect of the Repeal ofefie
Combination Laws. He observed, that some measure ha& be-
come necessary, in consequence of the conduct of a number of
persons who had acted under a misconception of the law, oc-
casioned by the proceedings in Parliament last Session.--Thoee
proceedings, undoubtedly, although in principle therappeared
equally to affect masters and workmen, by no :means so ope-
aated in their practical application. On the motion of the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, a Committee had been appoirited to
consider, the expediency of repealing the Combination Laws.
That Committee was very numerous; it consisted of 50 Mem-
bers. A great variety ofevidence was adduced before the COM-.
mittee, and the result was not a Report to the House, shewing
the grounds on which the Committee came to certain conclu-
sions ; but a string of Resolutions, unaccompanied by any ex.
planatory statement. He, (Mr. Huskisson) might perhaps be
pardoned for regretting that, being a Member of that Commit-
tee, he had been prevented, by his official duties, from attend-
ing it so frequently as he could have wished. The same cause
had prevented him when the Hon. Member introduced into the
House a Bill founded on the Resolutions of the Committee,
froM paying it sufficient attention. But he still more regret,
ted that the Bill had not attracted* the notice of those who would
have been aware of the legal nature of its enactments, and
of the way in which they would operate. The fact appeared
to be, that the Bill not only affected all the Statutes declaring
combination an evil, but went on to provide, that no proceed.
ings should take place by the common law against it. ; the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen observing, on the authority
of his Honourable and Learned Friend, the Member for Not-
tingham, that the statutory regulations remaining were quite
sufficient to prevent injurious combinations. He (Mr. Hume)
had observed at the time, that he was really not a competent
judge of the extent and effect of the law. However, the Bill
repealed thirty or forty Acts of . Parliament, and put aside
the common law on the subject altogether. It was brought
in at a late period of the Session, read a second time on the
2d of June, and passed so suddenly as on the sth of the same
month, and that without any discussion. He by no means
imputed any blame to the Honourable Gentleman .for this dis-
patch ; he merely stated it to account for the Bill's not having
received that consideration which was due- to a measure of so
much importance. What had been the result? It had hap-
pened tohim, in his official situation, to receive some strong
representations of the conduct of the workmen since the re-
peal; but to his Right Honourable Friend near him (Mr.
Peel), had been communicated the occurrence of many ace: of
outrage and violence of the most disgraceful character. These
acts, evidently resulting from a misconception of the object of
the Legislature, were frequent; and the spirit er combination
had become so prevalent, and threatened property to so great
an extent, that, if left to itself, the greatest mischief's might
justly- be apprehended. Unless Parliament speedily interfered
with some Legislative measure to prevent such proceedings
from arriving at maturity, his Right Honourable Friend would,
ere long, have to deal with them in another way ; and would
have to exert all the civil authority with which he was vested
to protect the property and liberty of the King's subjects from
the formidable conspiracy which appeared to be organized
against them. In the present state of the evil, however, he
(Mr. Huskisson) hoped that the subject might still be dealt
with as one of commercial policy, as a legislative question, con-
nected at once with the freedom of the labouring classes, and
with the rights and property of their employers. He, ho*..
ever, repeated his conviction, that unless the interference were
speedy, the evil would grow to a magnitude which would re,.
quire a very different kind of remedy ; and if the influence cf
those who now appeared to guide large masses of the popula-
tion, and to incite them to turbulence, should'continue, he
was sure his Right Honourable Friend would not be backward
in using the means at his disposal, or if necessary, in applying
to Parliament for further means, for the purpose of preventing
the exercise of a most dangerous and unjustifiable tyranny
over the liberties and property of great classes of his Majesty's
subjects in various parts of this country. He (Mr. Huskis-
son) trusted that he should not be considered as a person hos-
tile to the freedom of labour. He had too frequently advo-
cated the right of every man to dispose of his personal industry
and skill in whatever way might be most productive to him-
self. Labour was the commodity of the poor man, and, like
all other commodities, the owner ought to be allowed to
carry it to the best market. Open competition was, in
his opinion, the greatest benefit that the labouring classes
could enjoy. But, while he contended for the freedom
of the labourer, he must, on the other hand, contend
alto for the freedom of the master, by whom that labourer
was employed. The one was surely entitled to the same pro.
tection as the other. The master furnished the capital, th's
property, the machinery, which rendered the industrious
and skill of the labourer available. That capital, that property,
that machinery, ought therefore to receive the sacred pro-
tection of the law. Unless that protection could be instil, d,
neithet the property of the master, nor the labours of the
workman, would continue to exist; and the workmen we- 11
be themselves the victims of their own imprudence and fule'ee
It would be detaining the House to enter into any details
of the outrages that had occurred. Lives had beta lesr in
different parts of the country.; and under ecircumstances
which prevented the detection of the murderers. What' were
the views of the turbulent with respect to their own conditioc r.
and to that of their employers? He held in his hand articles
of regulation of the Operative Colliers of Lanarkshire, Dum-
bartonshire, and Rentiewshire, as also those of Ayrshire,
These articles were numerous, and formed as regular a con-
stitution us had been occasionally framed by new Govern-
ments in various parts of the world. They appointed De-
legates, Committees, a Secretary, &c. &c.—ln the ninth
article it was provided, that delegates from the different works
ehould be assembled ; and it was not between one collier and
his workmen that this combination existed—but there was a
union of trades, and a system of union in the different works
of the same trade, forming a kind of federal republic, which
sent delegates to one general congress. Each work was to
send a delegate, and each delegate.-was' to be paid 'by his
own work, with this exception ; via. that the secretary arid
treasurer were to be paid out of the general fund ; and the same
article provided that these delegates were to. be elected eery
six months. Another article, the 11th, stated that it wee -the
duty of this General Congress to do every thing in their pceieer
for the common benefii of the persons confederated; and first,
to point out masters whom they disliked ; secondly, to warn
those masters. !Warn them of what ? Why of the danger in
which they were placed. But, thirdly, it was their duty to
try every thing which prudence might dictate to put them-bet
of the trade. Not to do every tiling which justice dictated,' to
obtain a proper -redress of grievances, .if any,existecl ; but' to
do every thing which prudence dictated to put• these masters
out of the trade, taking every precaution to prevent bringing
themselves within the reach of the lsw ; and hence, murder
had been committed, as had already appeared. Now was is to
be said, that persons engaged in the lawful pursuits of their
trade, or in adding, were to be kept in this state of terror is
respect of their property and in respect of their lives ? In the
13th article, to shew how clearly this body exercised their ey-
canny over the multitude placed under its controul, 'the Right
Hon. Gentleman found these passages. " These 'articles sissy
be altered or amended at any meeting of the delegates; and,
whatever is agreed to by two thirds of the delegates to be final.
`The power of levying money is to be loft to the General Cain,:
mittee." Here it was not " the power of subecription," buethe
power of levying, which was a phrase carrying with it a riipst
authoratative meaning. " All laws passed by the delegaterewill
be binding on those whom they represent ;" and 'one of these
laws that these gentlemen had passed was, that no •maiter
should be allowed to keep any stock of coals on his hands, be-
cause if he had, he would be less:dependent on the- workmen,
and they would have less controul over him by this system of
tyranny. The other Associations partook still more-of this out-
rageous interference with the masters ; for instance, one regula-
tion was, that every man who came to work at any colliery,
within' any county or district, should be amerced U. before he
worked at all, to be paid to the general fund. Under: that
regulation, a child of ten years old was to be reckoned ss
a quarter of a man—( Laughter) ;—and at the age of•eighteen
years, he was to pay the full price. In like manner, if a collier
wanted an assistant to aid him in his work, he was not at li-
berty to get such assistant, unless the man was adopted and
appointed by the Committee. Now, in this particular pan of
the nation, and in the artificial state inevhich the country watt
placed with respect to the Poor Laws, looking at these mem s
as reversioners, they had no right 'to take measures of this de-
scription, the result of which would be, prematurely to pro=
vide an interruption of their employment, and to bring them
as burthens on that property, with the fair enjoyment of which
they were interfering. He would ask the House, without inter-
fering with these persons, disposing of what they properly ob-

taieed as they pleased, whether, if these 51. were placed in
a Saving Bank, they. would not produce a result, much
mole beneficial to the wives and orphans of these persons, that
by placing them in the power of these Presidents, Treasurers,
.Secretaries, and so on ? What must necessarily be the charac-
ter of these permanent Presidents and Members of Committees
of Management ? Why they must be individuals impelled and
crated by a lust of obtaining power; and in a struggle for the
attainment of such an object by the laws of human nature, the
most violent would place themselves in the most pre-eminent
situations. In another article of this confederation, it was
stated, that all business should undergo a full and clear dis-
cession ; and then the minority, whether they agree or not,
Wall be equally bound. That, unquestionably, might be a
very good rule for debating societies; but he would submit
to the House, that it was most consistent with the fair corn-
petition 'of labour, nor with the power which a master ought
so have over his own property ; nor with those relations
which the law sanctioned between the employer and the
party who was employed. To show that the Honourable
Member was not overstating the case, he would take the
liberty of stating to the House what was the 22d article—
Ice this was a very long constitution. The 2ttd article said,
41, That no operative workman was to engage himself to a
master for a given price, or for a Fiven time, without the con-
sent of the Committee." Now, it these rules were to extend
themselves to all the branches of ship-building, mining, navi-
gation, &c. in this country, it was awful to contemplate the
fearful consequences that might ensue; and when he stated it
night be productive of such calamitous results, he was sorry
to add, that the mischief he alluded to had already occurred in
the coasting trade. There existed at present a Seaman's
Union, not to be sure with regular laws and regulations in
ehese specific shapes, but with doctrines promulgated in a sup-
positious dialogue between two seamen, and by no means the
less attractive in consequence of that disguise in which it was
presented to their minds.—( Hear l)—The regulations pointed
sr.lt, in this supposed conversation, one rule of conduct, among
others, to the seamen, by which they were advised to select and
appoint those placed in authority over them. He would ask
the House, whetherit could by any possibility be safe to carry
on a system of this kind ? And here he would mention,
that it was not confined to the coasting trade atone ; for
he knew an instance of a very extensive mining work,
where the men had been committing extensive acts of violence,
not upon a plea of having small wages, nor upon a claim of
higher remuneration for their services, but upon the ground
that they had a right to select their own overlookers. In the
coasting trade they now had a regulation, that every individual
in the ship, including the mate and excluding the master,
should be a member of the Seaman's Union, and among other
regulations there was one, that they should not do certain cus-
ternary things that might be absolutely necessary during a
voyage for the safety of the vessel., He could state a case that
recently occurred, where a vessel had been cast upon a sand
bank at the mouth of the river, and to get her off it be-
came necessary to shift a part of the ballast. Now, one of
the regulations which was found in this dialogue between
Tom and Harry, stated that it was unfit for a seaman to
lend himself in moving ballast. In consequence of this the
-whole crew were in a state of mutiny; they refused to do that
which was necessary to get the vessel off, and it was only by
other craft coming to her assistance that she was enabled to
get into a state of safety. The crew then did their duty in na-
vigating the ship ; but they would not do that which was ne-
cessary to get her off the sand-bank. In fact, the smacks that
assisted in getting her off, afterwards made a charge of sal-
vage; and it was stated in the award, that the danger which
existed was owing to the insubordination of the crew. How
then could the House conceive any thing more dangerous
than a compact of this sort among the crew of a ship going
out to sea ?. How was it possible that the captain of a ship
could, under these circumstances, take care of property com-
mitted to his charge, or, in fact, ee sure of saving either his
vessel or his life, if insubordination of this kind were suffered
to exist?—(Hear, hear!)—The Right Hon. Gentleman was
very much surprised at the manner in which this Act was
worded, and at the awful construction which was put upon it
by those who construed it with no other object but to mislead
persons not capable of construing it for themselves. The Act
repealed all Statutes on the subject of Combination, and then '
declared, that no proceedings at Common Law of any descrip-
tion should be instituted against persons who combined with a
view to rising their wages, and he would call the attention of the
House to the second section of This Act, which. said, " That
journeymen, workthen, or other persons, who shall enter into
a combination to obtain an increase of wages, or who should
combine to regulate. the mode in which any manufacture,
trade, or business, should he managed, should not be subject
or liable to any indictment for conspiracy, either by the
common or statute law." Now, he submitted, it would
appear by this that it was something almost desirable and
commendable for workmen to combine in order to controul
40: regulate any particular trade ; and this was the impression
under which Hies. Infatuated individuals laboured. They
conceived that by an interference of the nature which he
had described, they did not violate the spirit or intention of the
law, but, on the contrary, that they fulfilled it. If it were only
to set them right, therefore, it would be necessary that some
Inquiry should take place to shew them what the law was, and
what it ought to be. The fifth section went on to provide, that
threats or intimidations, or the wilful and malicious driving
men from their living, or the destruction of machinery, sholild
be punished in a particular way, namely, that the individuals
being convicted of such offences before two Magistrates, on the
evidence of two witnesses, should be punished with two months'
.imprisonment. It did not require any new Act of Parliament
to create punishment for these offences. The Right Honourable
Member spoke in the presence of the Attorney-General, who
would correct him if he was wrong, and lie begged to say,
without reference to the law of Combination at al, that per-
sons who destroyed property, or who used threats or intimida-
•tions to others were subject to indictment by the existing law,
and therefore this Act was a work of supererogation. Under
the Common Law, some of these offences were felony ; all of
them were great misdemeanours, and he believed that the only
cases in which two witnesses were necessary, were cases of
high treason and perjury. Upon these grounds, he submitted
teat this law was not adequate to putting down the evil that
he had shewn existed to such a formidable extent. The evil
wee not the open violence, but the plotting it, and then open
and undisguised mode in which an invitation was held out to
diet plotting in the manufacturing districts, which was de-
structive both of the masters and of the employment which
they could give. The Right Hon. Member certainly conceived
that if these deluded men would for one moment reflect on the
consequences of what they were doing, they would desist
from such mischievous practices. They must see that they
would make it impossible for masters to embark their capital
under such risks. They would see that it would be impossible
for individuals to commit themselves to a state of tyranny so
insufferable as that which the workmen in a situation of con-
Lou'. over them. They must see that all employment would
cease, and that capitalists would be driven either to other parts
of the country, or to other countries, where they could find
better protection. Again he would say, that lie recommend-
ed those who employed workmen, not likely to yield, to meet
combination by combination on their part. He was sure, if
they acted with firmness and vigour, and resisted such demands.
the Magistracy of the country would give them support, and if
that was not adequate, his Right Honourable Friend the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department would give further as-
sistance to enforce the laws, to protect property and masters, and
to prevent the consequences of this baneful system. To what
ex tent it might be necessary to alter this law or whether it was
necessary to repeal it altogether, was more than the Right Hon.
Gentleman could determine. lie should be sorry to see the laws
• formerly in force on, this subject revived. It would be well if
seine system more efficient, and summary ' were adopted to pre-
vent combination from extending itself ; and he thought it a
subject well deserving inquiry and investigation. He might be
acting contrary to the opinions of those who sent him to that
House, but he felt he was doing his duty when he wished to
give protection to all employers, and to all those who were em-
ployed. He had hoped whatever might have been the first ebul-
lition of workmen after the repeal of the laws with respect to
combination, that their own good sense would have taught them
a better course than that which they now -pursued ; but the con-
trary had been the result ; and he now telt it his duty, for the
protection of the public interest, to move for a Select Commit-
tee to inquire into the effect of the Act of the sth Geo. IV. cap.
with respect to the conduct of workmen and others, and that
uch Committee should report its opinion how far it was neces-
sary to repeal or amend the said Act.
Mr. HUME stated, that no one had watched more closely
than he had the operation of this Act, and he was not aware
that he was unacquainted with any of the proceedings that had
taken place after its enactment. He was satisfied that many
parties had availed themselves of what they considered to be
benefit afforded by it, and many classes had gone further be-
yond their own interest, or the interest of the communities,
than could possibly be permitted. But it did happen that since
the passing of that Act employment had been increasing;
workmen had been more in demand, and these causes had
tended to the mischief complained of more than the repeal of
the former laws with respect to combination. When the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite had referred to the Common Law,
he (Mr. Hume) would say that the prosecutions which flowed
from Common Law were tenfold more oppressive than those
which flowed from the Statute .Law. Formerly, if two or
three persons were found together with papers, they were liable
•to imprisonment, and many had suffered penalty. He would
call upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to draw a distinction he-
. tween two cases. There might be meetings of persons
combining orderly and peaceably for proper purposes, and
there might be meetings for disorderly purposes. The Com-
mittee which sat on this subject, on a former occasion, drew
distinction, that it.might be lawful for men and masters to

meet together to consult upon wages to be given and received
in their trades, but if three masters met to settle those wages,
or three men met for such a purpose, tkey might be prosecuted.
But this difference existed, that out of the many cases of con-
spiracy against masters, none were proved, from the difficulty
of procuring evidence, while the convictions of the men were
innumerable. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would draw
this distinction, he would spew; in the first instance, what might
be said under the Acts of the 38th and 39th Geo. 111. The
punishment inflicted for the offence under those Acts was im-
prisonment for two months. The plain question was, whether
this or any other punishment was necessary, and whether they
came within the law, unless in cases where the men by acts of
violence interfered to deteriorate the property of their master
or fellow workmen. His opinion undoubtedly was, that both
the parties ought to be free to make what bargains, and to
act in what manner they should deem the best for their own
interest. He thought the law, as it at present stood, was as
strong as it ought or need be, and he should therefore oppose
any increase of its severity upon one of the parties, while the
other was left at full liberty. He was sorry to say that the
Union Societies in Dublin had been productive of the greatest
evil ; many persons had actually been murdered ; but then he
was happy to observe, that although these Union Societies
existed also in England, they were not attended with any such
dreadful evils as those which accompanied them in Ireland.—
In Dublin, if the curriers were offended with their masters,
they applied to the carpenters, and marked out the objects of
their censure ; if the carpenters were offended with theirs, they
applied to the shoemakers, or any other trade, and then the
unhappy individual, who was afterwards assaulted, could not,
if he survived, bring any of the offenders to justice, for they
were all unknown to him. To repress such a system, he
thought no law could be too severe, but then his objection
to the combination law generally was, that it punished the
whole of the operative class for the offence of a few of its
members.—(Hear !)—He admitted that the seamen had acted
with extreme impropriety, but he thought that perhaps they
might not have been the only persons who had so acted. In
some cases he knew the conduct of the masters was worse than
that of the men, and he would give a few instances of it. The
first act of combination in Glasgow was the act of the masters.
A few men of gr. Dunlop's manufactory disagreeing with
their master, he believed, upon some point of wages, they de-
clined to continue working far him. What was the conse-
quence ? Why the masters immediately combined together,
for they called a meeting, at which the subject was discussed,
and which came to a resolution to make a stand against the
men. This they effected in the following manner. They pub-
lished a notice, stating that " if the men of Mr. Dunlop's fac-
tory did not return to their work on or before Monday morning
next, they (the masters) would discharge from their employ
all the men, amounting in number to ten thousand, until
the men who had quitted Mr. Dunlop returned to him." The
workmen who had gone away disclaimed acting in concert
with any others, and said, " Do not punish them for what
we have done ;" but their disclaimer was not attended
to, and all the men in Glasgow of the same trade were
actually turned out of their employment. Now he would
ask, whether the mere declining on the part of the men.
to work for their masters was to be put in comparison for
enormity with thatact of the masters ? But that was not all.—
The property of the masters enabled them to get the better
of the men, who were at least obliged to come in uncondition-
ally. When they did so, the masters punished their resist-
ance in a very decided manner, for they actually deducted the
loss they had sustained by this cessation of labour from the
amount of the men's weges, the men being obliged to pay at
the rate of ten per cent. per week, until the masters de-
clared themselves satisfied. He asked whether the refusal of '
the seamen to sail might not have proceeded from some act
performed by their masters ? He knew that combination*
were often carried on by both parties, but the stronger of these
was the masters. A person employing a great number of men
in the tin trade in London, had occasion to find fault with one
of his men for drinking, and he finally discharged the man ;
he was told by the man, that if he did so all the others would
leave him ; but he persevered, and the consequence was
that all the men in the factory, amounting to 74 in number, ac-
tually quitted him on the following morning. Immediately
afterwards this man put an advertisement into the papers, in
which he stated that he wanted men, but that he would • not
engage any who belonged to the Union. His advertisement
was answered, and he gradually filled his factory with men not
connected with the Society. In this instance, therefore, the
master was again triumphant. This case, however, spewed
something else, for it clearly proceeded upon the same spirit
and principle which had been ascribed to the seamen. It
was a regulation entered into by the masters in Scotland, that ,
any person who quitted one factory, should not be employed
in another, and that object was effected by the masters send-.
ing round to each other lists of the men who, from any cause
whatever, had quitted their employment ; so that no man
who happened to differ with his master, could succeed in ob-
taining employment elsewhere. If that was not a combination
among the masters, he really did not know what could deserve
the name.—( Hear !)—He was certain that every body would
concur in the necessity of punishing any one who had been
guilty of an act of violence, but he did hope that nobody would
consent to enact laws by which the innocent and the guilty
should be indiscriminately punished. He had himself long
considered this subject, and at one time he had contemplated
proposing that power should be given to Government, in cer-
tain cases, to punish combination among soldiers and sailors.
He would, however, ask whether the laws that once existed for
repressing violence in the collieries of Scotland had been pro-
ductive of any real advantage ? The Scotch had thought, and
the Lord Advocate had actually proposed to try, whether the
effect would not be more surely obtained by their removal than
their continuance. He mentioned that for the purpose of spew-
ing that conciliation was better than violence. He trusted that
whatever the House might do, they would not think of legis-
lating to repress combination among the men without, at the
sarue time, attempting to repress it among the masters.
Mr. PEEL said that he was not aware, before to-night, that
the Committee which had sat upon the Combination Laws last
year, had consisted of so many as 50 Members. That circum-
stance, however, seemed in some degree to have contradicted
the maxim, that in a multitude of counsellors there was wis-
dom, four their Report, and the measure founded upon it, had
failed to convince him that the repeal of 35 Statutes, without
substituting some,h:ng for that which had been taken away, was
the best course which could have been pursued. He did not
mean to defend the old Statutes, which were undoubtedly veryl
defective, but he thought the law, as it at present stood, wag'
not what it ought to be. The question now came fairly before
the House, and he was happy that nothing of party or political
feeling was mixed up with its discussion. The ten resolutions
of the Committee declared, that it was expedient to punish, in a
summary manner, the man or the master, who by violence or
threats, attempted' to injure the property, or the rights of the
other. The offender was to be taken before a Magistrate, who
on the testimony of two credible witnesses, might send him to
prison. Now, under this part of the law the criminals generally
managed to escape the penalty of their misconduct, for what
they did or said was done or spoken only to the master, and
not in the presence of any witnesses. Why the presence of
two witnesses was rendered necessary, he knew not, but so it
was, and the consequence was that the law was evaded. He
did not think that the whole of the evil could be fairly ascribed
to the masters. He believed the system of delegation at pre-
sent existing in this country to be an excessive and infamous
tyranny. Was it fit that such a system should be longer borne ?
Was it fair—was it just—was it in accordance with that free
trade, of which so much had lately been said, and which had
been justly described as of the highest importance and benefit
to this country ?—( Hear !)—He asked, was it for the advantage
of that free trade, so justly praised of late, that men should be
permitted 'to refuse to sail irea vessel, unless all the crew and
the mate of that vessel were members of the Union ?
The effects of such a system were most disastrous. The
master might have entered into a contract, under a heavy pe-
nalty, to sail at a certain time—lie might have taken his cargo
on board—every thing might be ready—and then, when lie
was anxious to sail, he would find himself prevented front doing
so, by his crew refusing to proceed-, on the voyage unless the
mate was a member of their union. He might have no confi-
dence in the members of that union, or he might have placed as
mate on board his vessel a man in whom he had the highest
confidence. That circumstance would be of no avail; he
would be reduced to the alternative of either complying with
the demands of his crew, on the one hand, or of submitting to
the loss of the penalty in his contract, on the other. Was such
a system to be any longer endured ?—(Hear !l--He trusted not
—but that some remedy would be applied to so gross and glar-
ing an evil. He knew that a Committee of Delegates was at
this moment sitting in the Thames, dictating in the most impe-
rious manner both to masters of ships and shipwrights. He
would mention one instance of this. A short time back four or
five individuals presented themselves at the yard of a shipwright
employing a great number of men, and commenced emplaying
themselves in the works. The foreman or one of the masters
told them that they were not wanted. And what was their an-
swer ? They said that they had heen sent thither by the Com-
mittee of Delegates, and that employment must be found for
them. They were again told that the number of men already
employed was quite sufficient for the purposes of the business.
and they were desired to retire. The consequence was, that all
the men in the service of that shipwright quitted immediately
afterwards. The same thing was done in other parts of the
country. One object of the combination was manifestly in-
jurious to the men, who were, however, deluded enough to at-
tempt to obtain it--that was the indirect establishment of a
maximum of wages. If that could be done, the men
would be the principal sufferers—for the active, industrious
and powerful man ought, undoubtedly, to gain more than
the slow, the idle, or the weak workman ; and yet the re-
verse would be the fact if ;heir. intention . could be carried,,

into effect. The old and the young, the strong and the weak,
would then receive the same remuneration for their labour, and
the men would have succeeded in establishing the worst
principle that could be applied to the regulation of wages. He
knew of a case where the safety of a vessel had been in danger
by a combination existing among the men, in consequence of
which they conceived it to be inconsistent with the rules of a
certain society to give their assistance in the particular manner
required. That assistance was obliged to be procured from
other individuals, who were very largely paid for it. Such a
system was injurious to property, and it carried into opera-
tion, might be destructive to life. The evils it occasioned
to both parties were extremely great, and for the benefit of
the ni-n themselves, he thought the system ought to be re-
pressed. He called on the House to look with calmness to the
present existing circumstances, and without reference to party
or to prejudice, to say what was the extent of the evil, and
what was the nature of the remedy that ought to be applied.—
If they did so, he was confident that the result would be highly
beneficial to the country ; indeed he believed that the pro-
mulgation of the discussion of this night would have the
greatest and a most excellent effect on the minds of the de-
luded men who had entered into these combinations, and that
they would find it their interest to abandon such combinations
in future. The effects that bad been produced in Dublin
were terrible in the extreme. In the course of the three
last years no less than ten lives had been lost in consequence of
these combinations, and not one of the persons connected with
these murders had been brought to justice. He thought, there-
fore, he was justified in saying that the produced the effect of
breaking the bonds of civil society, and of reducing men to that
state in which force was the only arbitrator of all the differences.
The horrid details of the manner of these murders, had been
stated by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, who had said that the
curriers, when offended, applied to the carpenters to avenge them,
in consquence of which the sufferers could not know the persons
by whom they had been assaulted. He thought such a state of
society dreadful in the extreme, and the sooner it was put an
end to the better. The men had attempted to regulate the
number of apprentices that their masters should receive, and
twelve having been the limited number, the master who took
thirteen rendered himself planoxiouX, and was thought deserv-
ing of punishment. They had also attempted to regulate the
number of the machines employed by any master, if not to
put a stem to the employment of machinery altogether. In
the case of Mr. Robinson, a very extensive iron manufac-
turer, who had constructed a machine by which nails could
be made with great.. rapidity, the men had determined to
.prevent the use of those nails which he manufactured. The
nail-makers therefore assembled a meeting of three thousand
men of other trades, who promised, that if their masters would
oblige them to use Robinson's nails, they would drive them
crooked. This took place in Ireland, and the consequence
was, that instead of the nails used there being manufactured
in that country, they were obtained from Birmingham ; so
that the introduction of English capital into the labour of
Ireland, which was so beneficial a measure for that country,
and which had taken place in this nail-manufactory, was ren-
dered totally ineffectual and useless. The fact was, that there
existed the strongest necessity for a law to repress combina-
tions—a law which should equally bind both masters and men—
which should be founded in principles of the most perfect
equality of {punishment, and which should provide an efficient
remedy for this disgraceful system of combination. The men
should be prevented from attempting to regulate that of which
they knew nothing, while the masters should at the same time
be prohibited from combining together, so as to effect the
interests of the men. He should therefore support the mo-
tion, for a Committee to examine into the effect of the re-
peal of the Combination Laws, and he thought the present a
fit time for the purpose, as the question could be considered
carefully—the evils, and the best means of checking them
adopted. As the Law at present stood, he could only say, that
in case of any actual violence committed, he would, as Secre-
tary of State, give every civil—aye, in cases of necessity, every
military assistance that could be afforded to the parties. But
he had no doubt, that when he said this to the masters, they
would answer him, by declaring, that it was not open vio-
lence they feared. That the men attacked their interests and in-
jured their property by combinations, producing a more silent,
but not less certain aect. In such cases all that he could say
was to advise the masters to enter into counter-combinations, by
which they might succeed in defeating the objects of the men ;
that they might succeed by such counter-combinations there
could be no question, but then -the feeling of amicability and
good faith which ought to exist between masters and men
would be destroyed, and he therefore gave such advice with the
utmost reluctance because he felt that, by establishing these
counter-combinations the amount of evil was only increased, and
yet, however, without them, the masters, under three resent sys-
tem, could have no protection. lie had lately ived from
Ireland proofs, too conclusive to be doubted, of the evils of
such a system, and lie did think that there was a party to
whom no allusion had yet been made, whose case was. how-
ever, well deserving the attention of the Holm. He alluded
to the situation of any man, who, in the midst of these com-
binations, should resolutely adhere to his master. Such
a person would be the object of universal hatred among the
men, and he did think that there were more than twenty
towns in that country where such a man could not appear
with safety after night-fall. Could there be a stronger case ,
for the intervention of the Legislature than this ? He thought I
not, and lie was glad to observe the unanimity which pre-
vailed in the House respecting the impropriety of combina-
tions
of all kinds. He trusted, that after the evils of such a
system had been exposed in the manner they had to-night, the
men would listen to argument, and be convinced of the impish.
priety of their conduct ; that they would teel how hostile it was
to their own interests ; and that they would of their own ac-
cord abandon it; if not, lie trusted the result of the delibera-
tions of the Committee would be a lasi equally for the benefit
of the-masters anti the men—a law which would prevent that
system of combination, than which nothing was more injurious
to the true interests of this country.
Mr. H. GURNEY defended the conduct of the Committee'
upon the Combination Laws, which had come to a unanimous
resolution on the important subject entrusted to ns inquiries. He
did not attribute the lives lost, mentioned in the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, to the repeal of the Combination Laws,
and deprecated strongly the re-enactment of the Statutes then
abrogated. It had been distinctly established before the Com-
mittee, !not only that the Combination Laws did not prevent
the evils complained of, but that they had not the slightest ten-
: dency to prevent combination.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY admitted that a misconception of the
intentions of the Honourable Member for Aberdeen, and of
the law he had proposed, had given rise to the scenes of com-
bination and disturbance referred to by the Right Honour-
able Gentleman. In more instances than one the Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had endeavoured to correct this mis-
apprehension by the operative classes, particularly during the
riots in Glasgow, when he wrote a letter, pointing out the im-
proper conduct of the men, and explaining the provisions of the
law. He (Sir MM. Ridley) had been told by some workmen
that they were justified in their conduct, because Mr. Hume had
repealed the combination laws, and when they were referred to
that gentleman's letter, they expressed their surprise at the ex-
planation there given of the real state of the law. He was pre-
pared to confirm all that the Right Hon. Gent. had mild respect-
ing the ship yard in one of the northern ports, but lie begg6d
leave to bear teatimony to the excellent conduct of that indus-
trious class, the inineil and colliers of the north of England—
(Hear !)—He was not aware that since the alteration of the law
there had been any combination br dispossltion to combination
among them. He had received a letter yesterday morning with
the satisfactory intelligence that the annual binding or engage-
ment between the men and their masters had gone off without
the slightest complaint dr demand- for increased wages —( Hear,
hear !)—Much had been done lately to promote free trade, but
free trade and free labour must go hand in hand, and lie hoped
that the inquiries of the Committee about to be appointed would
promote this beneficial result.
Mr. TRANT expressed his conviction that the repeal of the
Act was imperiously necessary in Ireland.
Mr. C. GRANT said that as a Member of the Committee of
last year, he was extremely anxious to Thew the persons whose
infamous conduct had been stated to the House, that however
well disposed he bad been to forward a measure for their pro-
tection,he was no less determined in his desire to punish abuses
such as those which they were committing. Their conduct, gross
as it w. s, was doing far greater injury to their own interests than
to those of any other parties. it excited feelings of such a nature
as almost to induce a wish to restore the old Combination Laws.
Notwithstanding that he was glad of the opporninity of declar-
ing his sentiments, he almost regretted that so much had been
said upon the subject ; for he could not help thinking that an
impression would go abroad—not with the intention or wish of
his Right Hon. Friend, he knew—but he feared that some
things which had fallen during the discussion might be taken
as an imputation upon the conduct of the Committee. He
was one of the fifty Members who attended that Committee,
and most cordially concurred in every thing which proceeded
from it. It was. unfair to attribute the present state of things
to the Hon. Member's Act, for the same combinations existed
before it was passed, and most 'of the murders spoken of had
been perpetrated previous to that time. A complete system of
terror had then been established, of which they had proofs
in the trembling and alarmed manner with which many wit-
nesses gave their evidence before the Committee. The. Right
Hon. Gentleman warmly defended the resolutions
so much of
of the Coin-
mittee, a and contended that the Act only rep
e
the Common Law as rendered peaceable meeting two or
three individuals penal, under the 23d of Edward the First.
aled
He found no fault with his Right Hon. Friend for bringing
forward the subject, but, on the contrary, should have consi-
dered it a dereliction of duty on his part if had not done so.
And-Nish , desire tq Ular Howse and. the country his
k to OP

abhorrence of that atrocious abuse of the lenity exercised to-
wards these persons, he could not silently support the motion.
Mr. KENNEDY said a few words in approbation of the
measure.
Mr. LAMBTON said the thanks of the country were due
the Right Hon. Gentleman for calling the attention of Parlia-
ment to a subject so alarming.
Mr. HUSKISSON explained, that he had made no ob-
jection to the Resolutions of the Committee. The Act itself,
it was quite clear, had created a misconception, followed
by prejudicial effects in some parts of the country. The
Honourable Member for Aberdeen had. called upon him
not to visit with severity the offences of the few upon the
unoffending conduct of the many. It was not his intention to
propose any thing severe or penal towards any parties. He
only asked the House to consider how far the interests of com-
merce and the general peace and welfare required the adjust-
ment of this question, with a due protection to the rights both
of the master and the labourer. •
The question was then put and carried, and the Committee
appointed.

NEW STREETS.
Mr. BERRIES moved for leave to bring in a Bill to ex-
tend the jurisdiction of the Commissioners for paving and re-
gulating the Regent's Park, and the new street from thence to
Pall-mall.
Mr. HOBHOUSE impressed upon the House the fitness of
due inquiry before any fresh improvements were undertaken.—
Leave was then given.
CROWN LANDS AND PROPERTY.
Mr. HERRIES obtained leave to bring in a Bill for divid-
ing, allotting, and inclosing the Forest of Salcey, in the Coun-
ties of Northampton and Buckingham. Also to bring in a Bill
to extend the provisions of the 59 Geo. 111. relating to the dis-
position of certain real and personal property of his Majesty.
DISSENTERS' MARRIAGE BILL.
Mr. W. SMITH moved the order, of the day for the Com-
mittee on the Dissenters' Marriage Bill.
Mr. PEEL asked what the Hon. Gent. then proposed to do?
Mr. W. SMITH answered, it was only his wish to fill up
the blanks at present, that the measure might be intelligible,
and that the further discussion should be postponed until after
the holidays.
Mr. PEEL wished the Bill to be then recommitted.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that he should .have no objection to
that course.
Mr. ROBERTSON, after a few observations, moved that
the Bill be committed this day six months. The gallery was
partially cleared, but the motion was negatived without a divi-
sion. The House went into a Committee, and the Bill was
read a first and second time, and the Report brought up, and
ordered to be further considered on Monday, the Itith of April
next.
The Irish Bankers' Bill was read a second time, and ordered

to be committed to-morrow.
The House then went into a Committee of the whole House
upon the Police Magistrate Bill.
The Threatening Letter Bill then passed through a Com-
mittee, and was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
The Felonies Pardon Bill was then read a second time, and
went through the Committee.—Ordered to be !nought up to-
morrow.
Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report of the Committee
of Supply, which was read.
The Game Laws' Bill was then carried through a Com-
mittee.
After other clauses were prop:•sed and agreed to, the Bill
was ordered to be engrossed, and to be read for the third time
on Monday the 25th of April.
The Scotch Judicature Bill was read a second time.
The Small Debts Bill was committed, and ordered to be
read for the third time on the 18th April.
The Debts Recovery Bill for Scotland was also committed,
and ordered to be read for the third time on the same day.
The Prison Laws (Ireland) Bill was read a second time, and
committed for the 21st April.
Mr. R. MARTIN gave notice of a Bill that he intended to
bring in on the 15th April, to enable persons charged with
felony to defend themselves by C3unsel.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Eleven o'Clock.

ON THE AMERICAN MINING COMPANIES.

(From the Journal dcs Debuts of Sunday.)

Au event is preparing in the New World,
which will change for good or evil the financial situation of Eu_
rope. Since 1810 the importation of precious metals drawn
from the mines of America has considerably diminished, and
is of late become quite insigniEcant. The mines of Mexico
ruined by the insurgents of hidalgo, and of late feebly set to
work, instead of sending to Europe twenty-two millions of
piastres, their old tribute, have only sent us between nine
and ten millions ; and as the working- of mines is always ex-
pensive, and the culture of cocoa, indigo, and sugar, more lu-
crative and easy, the natural tendency of free civilization has
caused the mines to be abandoned. Perhaps it is the true po-
licy of the Mexican Government to limit it, that the relative
value of the metals may be kept up.
The mines of Peru have not, like those of Mexico, been ma-
terially injured ; they were not flooded, broken down, nor
choked up, but they have been abandoned by the workmen,
who have enlisted in the Royalist army, or hidden themselves
in the forests of the interior, whilst the capitalists have fled
from a country so distracted by war.
The mines of Colombia and Chile, like those of Brazil, are
mere river-washings ; the gold is found in grains which the
stream washes down with the sand. Mineralogists have almost
given up the idea of discovering any vein of gold; the more
easy and more prompt method will therfore be resumed in Co-
lombia and Chile whenever the inhabitants wish ; but the en-
lightened Colombians prefer extending their industry to the
culture of those productions favourable to the climate, and to-
wards those manufactures which the country is in want of.
Chile is more attached to its mines of copper, whose produce is
called for by all commercial nations. Copper and iron are the
metals of civilization and liberty; gold and silver may minister
to despotism, corruption, and gambling.
The gold-washing in Brazil, thanks to slavery, still continues
but it is only England who reaps the profit.
Generally speaking, nothing can excite the free people of the
New World to leave their glowing sun and charming shades in
order to find us crowns and guineas. But a foreign impulse, the
spirit of speculation in the English, is about to draw from the Cor-
derillas the inexhaustible metallic treasures shut up in its bosom.
England wishes to sell America as many goods as possible; she
does not like to receive in exchange colonial commodities which
rival her own ; she therefore wishes the metallic productions to
be augmented, that they may serve as a medium of exchange,
which is advantageous enough for those who receive it ; above
all, when owing to akind of monopoly they can fix the rate of
exchange. Such is now the position of English commerce with
regard to those new States, which the confined policy of our
Ministry and the blindness of Spain have thrown into the arms
of a nation they dislike, and which in every other respect than
that of the exchange of ingots has not one Interest in coin.
in,;:.l with them. Many companies of capitalists iit.79 been
formed M liondon to buy the property of the Mexican,
v„v rkn Peruvian,g of andthem ewo
with
hle a n nin order to recommence the
means
Bred by European acience,and
which alone, by diminishing the enormous expences, may ren-
der the enterprise productive. Two things are absolutely neces-
sary—first, steam-engines instead of human labour, which at
present is extremely dear, and almost impossible to procure in
the midst of a free and lazy population ; the subterranean waters
which have inundated the mines must be drained, more simple
and more perfect modes of extraction must be established, new
galleries must be opened, and the old ones must be propped up :
secondly, mineralogists equally acquainted with mechanics and
chemistry must be procured ; they must above all be able to
apply to the unrefined mineral the new methods of fusion and
amalgamation.