The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-10 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 9.
The Lone CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack shortly after Five o'clock. •
The Elrl of CLARE presented a petition from some
place in Ireland, praying for an alteration in the Irish

poor laws.
Lord FARNHAM presented a petition from Galt, in
the county of Galway, praying for an inquiry into
the vtorking of the Irish poor-laws; also several peti-
tions, praying .for an alteration in the area of taxation to
the relief of the Irish poor.
IM MIGRATION-TAX.
Lord STANLEY rose to ask the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colorries,what measures had been taken
to induce the Colonial Legislature to reduce the tax
imposed upon immigrants entering. the British colonies
in North America. Several of his own tenants were
about to emigrate, and be wished to know whether it
' would be prudent to advise them to go to Canada, or to
' transfer their labour to a more hospitable, though foreign
• region.
Earl GREY said that he had received a dispatch, stating
that it was the intention of the GOvernment of Cana•la to
propose to lessen the tax on im migrants. It should be recol-
lected. however, that in Canada much greater assistance
was afforded to immigrants than in the hospitable state-to
which allusion had been made, New York. In Canada
they were forwarded to the remotest part of the colony
at the public expense, whereas in New York no assist-
• anee was afforded them, and it was necessary that the.
towns of Cantida should adopt some measures to prevent
the immigrants from bee )wing burdensome to them.
and last year, 'notwithstanding the tax, the emigrants
• sent out :from this country were fully as numerous as
the colony could absorb. The greater number who
went out were unskilled labourers. The dispatches
would be presented to Parliament in a very few days,
and then the House would be in possession of much
valuable information on the subject.
Lord MONTEAGLE was not surprised to hear that
there had been difficulty in providing for the emigra-
tion of 1847. The great objection made by the Cana-
. diens was not to the number of the emigrants, but to the
disease, the fever,which the emigrants brought with them.
The tax was so heavy that it had failed to increase the re-
-.venue of the colony. Itwas too high, and therefore it failed.
Ile could show that as emigration had been diverted by
the increase in this tax from the British colonies, so had
emigration to the United States increased. At the time
the Passenger Act was passed in this country, we were
not aware of the passing of this measure of taxation by
. the Canadian Legislature, and thus emigration to
Canada suffered a double discouragement. He denied
tbat the tax was applied to promote the comfort of emi-
. grants. In New Brunswick it was applied solely to
, colonial purposes, and with regard to the transmission
of the emigrants in Canada, it was so singularly de-
fective that the spread of fever in Canada was almost
solely attributable to the method adopted for forwarding
these emigrants. The United. States !provided for the
transmission of emigrants.
Earl GREY—No, no.
Lord MONTEAGLE was at issue with his Noble

Friend. The United States Legislature had enacted that
. railway companies should provide cheap trains for the
transmission of emigrants,and surelythat was an assistance.
He wished to see a better system of emigration to Ca-
nada established, and the question would ere long force
itself on the attention of their Lordships. He concluded
by giving notice that he should on Monday move for a
return of the number of emigrants who had left the
United Kingdom during the course of last year, and the
. ports from which they embarked.
Earl GREY thought the British colonies had been
-most unjustly censured, more especially when he re-
membered the noble efforts which those colonies had
made to mitigate the distress which prevailed in 1847.
He thought it was impossible to find a country in which
public affairs were more efficiently conducted than in that
colony, and the statesmen of that country had recorded
.theiropinion that as many immigrants had arrived in
that oolony as the colony could absorb. He repeated
that immigrants and their baggage were forwarded
for Quebec and Montreal gratuitously, while in New
York the railroad arrangement, sailed to by the
.Noble Lord, was merely of a similar charac-
ter to the enactment making it compulsory on
-railway companies in this country to run trains at a
.penny a mile. It would be most impolitic to endeavour
to force the British American colonies to take emigrants
faster thin a demand arose for their labour.
Lord MONTEAGLE explained.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought it would be advisable
that the Colonial Legislature should be encouraged to
.undertake such public works as would afford additional
employment to immigrants, and he would not object to
a grant by the Imperial Parliament for that purpose.
- The subject then dropped.
CONFERENCE.

. _
- Their Lordships then, proceeded to appoint the Lord
_Privy Seal, Lord Hawarden, Lord Beaumont, and seve-
ral other Noble Lords to manage a conference with the
_Commons on the subject of engrossing Bills. Their
LAdships, so appointed, left the House, and after an ab-
sence of ten minutes returned and reported that the
conference had been held. .
IRISH. POOR-LAW.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then rose to move
that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the
adisinistration of the poor-law in Ireland. The Noble
Marquis was almost inaudible at the commencement of
his observations, and was throughout heard very indis-
tinctly. We understood him to say that their Lordships
would hardly expect him to make out what was called a
Parliamentary case against this law. Whatever might
be its defects it had been loudly and generally called for,
and far from its being a wonder or a solitary case that a
Committee of inquiry should be asked for under such
pircumstances, it was in accordance with the usual eourse
of Parliament. They had now some experience of its
actual course and operation, and were therefore in a
position to remedy defects that they could not have
foreseen. The difficulties which obstructed its appli-
cation had proved to be of a peculiar character, and
in some districts they had been almost overwhelming,
for their Lordships would recollect that it was a law
foe which the country was not prepared. It Could not
be expected that a country in which no such law had
had previously existed, and which had been subjected
to the calamity of a repeated failure of the crop upon
which the population mainly subsisted, should be
prepared for the operation of such a law. He was not,
therefore, surprised at the difficulties which had ob-
strutted the law in some districts, and especially those
which had suffered most severely by the last failure • but
he was at the same time prepared to show that there
were some parts of the country in which the law had
been completely and wholly successful, and if in other
parts it had not been so, it was owing to causes which
either could not have been foreseen, or, if so, which
could not have boot prevented. The calamity of a
failure of the potatoe crop had again visited those parts
of eke country which had previously suffered from the
some cause, but in those parts where new kinds of pro-
duce had been introduced the law had, so far from
being overwhelming, acted beneficially, and the bur-
dens it imposed hid been borne fairly and cheerfully.
That these burdens were not in themselves exorbitant,
was shown by the fact that the average rate last
year was 2.,. Old. in the pound, though no doubt there
were many carts in which they had been is., 109., and
20s. in the pound, and in one union they bad been
2i. 3s. Id'. in the pound.—(Hear, hear.) This excessive
inequality, and heavy burden, showed the necessity for
some ineiry into the operation of the Act, with the
view of effeetin such modifications as Might be prac-
tietzble in it,—(ll,ar, hear.) Her. Majesty's Govern-
zuent were not prrimred with any speciiic receuumenda,
films, but their Lordships must not suppose that they
bad tl,rcfure ken indifferent to the expression of opin-
ion on the s,!7bjec which had reached them from various
ttuartfrs. . Various sugge,tions had been made, and
Pcp,'Cittily: by 111..j0r • Larcow, who had entered into
details ' opm the matter, particularly With reference
:t° Vlie (I,li.'SiOn of electoral divisions, which Werc.,pf
a most valuable ' and practical character.--(llear.)
lier Mcesty's Ministers would be prepard to give the
Concraiitee tta the assistance in their power from this
and other sources, in order that they might Come to a
sound opinion. Among the points that would come be-
fore them would be the advisAbility of renewing the
appointment of vice guardians in some districts, in pre-
ference to the elected guardian's who had not carried out
the isle. In usanyAistriet4 ,these vice-guardians had
proved most efficiegt ttilwieistraiors. As he had said
before, it was not the intention. of ,the Government to
make any speritic recommendation; or to lay down any
rule for tno guidansss ise the ,Committee. They would
JP4ve the whole, ft übjoet tei-itotnd when their Lordships
had the report before them they would then be able to
decide what was reqdired in- the matter. The Noble
islurquis concluded by
moving that a Committee be ap-
pointed.
Lord STANLEY said thatwifnhfeeelhinagdsr
hothsahtooocldcahsaiovne
conSidted the dictates, of his o . . .
ssed by he petitioners,
tieferrsd to the opinions expre
them as to the value
however much he might differfrom
ed. the inquiry, and as it was,
. be should abstain
front, offering r thendefer-
any opposition to appoint-
'meat of the Committee. But i,
enee to these opinions, he did so abstain,. he could
not abstain from expressing his disappointment at the
'nature of the speech of the Noble Marquis, who had
moved for the appointment of the Committee, and at
the same time his own firm conviction that this Com-
imittee would only lead to the postponement of any real
remedy for a great and pres Sing grievance. There were
no doubt cases in which inquiry by a Committee was
most desirable. If any member of the Government was
deeirous of proving the extent and magnitude of an
evil, of providing a practical remedy—or of pointing
out a new mode by which any particular object could be
more legitimately . and certainly effected—a Committee
was useful as giving the power of bringing " the whole
subject fully before Parliament, and before the public;
of showing how the law acted, and the mode in which it
was proposed to amend it; that was the course pursued
wish regard to the amendment of the English Poor-law.
.It was necessary that they should show the public not
only the magnitude of the evils engendered by the
old law, but to convince them of the applica-
bility of the remedy which the Government had in
view. In such a case inquiry was both justifiable and
' . useful; but in this case there were no new facts to be
obtained—there was nothing to be elicited by a com-
mittee which was not already known to every man con-
nected with the south or west of Ireland—which was
not notorious and palpable to every man who had, in the
adeg,ree, inquired into the state of the country,
attention to the papers which had been
( os lri gshi
laid, bvt eesnt
the n) Government themselves, on the table of their
y
`Loedillips House. The Government themselves re-
'
':,:juited. nothing to enable them to make up their own
tniecTS, except
the power of doing so.—(Hear, hear.)
'
-Itutina4ad of this, they threw upon a Committee of say-
-1,404b5t were the amendments required by the law.
-Thbi'w not: the duty of a Parliamentary Committee, but
nl
*i't ajesty's Ministers,
Ttl
i upon whom the responsibi-
`"'itiiro VS proposing such administrative Amendments in ex-
-1 s

isting laws properly devolved.. The fact was, hdwever,
the Government had evaded this duty. With respect to
the working of the law, if he spoke of the part of the
country with which he was personally connected, it
would, to a great extent, apply to the south arid west of

Ireland; and making every allowance for the calamity of
the last years, he was sure he spoke the general feeling
of all who had watched its operation, when I,e saw the
law had completely broken down, and proved an utter
failure.—(Hear.) If he wanted a proof of the truth of
this opinion, he. would find it even in the speech of the
Noble Marquis opposite. The Noble Marquis, as a
proof that the law had, upon the whole, not been oppres
sive, had stated that the average rate for last year wa-
2s. 91. in the pound, but admitted that in many districts
the rates had ranged from 3s. to 203. in the pound. But
these averages were deceptive. They ought to add to
the actual rate the amount levied, or rather extorted,
from those who had the means of paying, to make up for
the defaulters who could not pay.—(Hear, hear.) Thr,
real amount they levied upon these parties amounted, in
many cases, to double, treble, and fourfold the nominal
rate. Take one union for instance, 11.19ths of it wen
entirely waste and desolate, and of course the whole rut.
levied upon the union has to be paid by the 8 l9ths
which are still occupied. In the papers laid on their
Lordships' table by her M,Ljesty's Government thert-
were ample materials for coming to a conclusion a-
to the utter inapplicability of the law. Out o'
130 unions, he found that 117 were in debt to
an extent beyond all their means of meeting their en-
gagements. They had a debt of 252,000/.. exclusive of
all assistance of every kind and shape which they had
received either from her Majesty's Government or from
the British Association, which amounted to 242,0001.

more. But even that amount did not measure the whole
amount of their liabilities. He found they were in-
debted to the British Association for clothing and feed.

ing 200,000 children in the schools. He found, further,
that 28 unions had received amongst them 198,0001. from
the Government; that 200 of these unions were in a
state of absolute bankruptcy, or fast approaching to it;
the whole rated value. in 18 of them being 432,0001,
while the debts were 222,0001., being more than
50 per cent. of the whole valuation in these
unions. But the best answer to all assertions that
the law was practicable, was to be found in
the fact, that the Government, by their own act and au-
thority, had practically abrogated the law, by supersed-
ing the boards of guardians in 36 out of 131 unions,
and placing in their stead a body who were alien alike
to the spirit of the Act and to the Constitution—a body
who had the power of levying rates, and who were at
the same time not responsible to the rate-payers. This
was contrary to the principle of the English poor-law,
and it was contrary to the principle of the poor-law as
it was intended to exist in Ireland. In 18 unions her
Majesty's Ministers had superseded the legitimate
guardians. But even the English law would have broken
down had it been applied to the same materials as them
were in Ireland. The circumstances of the two coun-

tries were entirely different. In England the landlord
really held his'property, and it was a fact that in the
greater-number of instances property was in a larger
number of hands than it was in Ireland—he meant as to
the fee simple. The holders in fee had a common inte-
rest in seeing that pauperism was kept down, and the best
use made of their lands. The land was in the possession
of tenants who possessed capital, and thus in England
they had both landlords and tenants who were capable
of bearing burdens; in Ireland they had neither. In
England the landlords had the power of prescribing to
tenants the mode of cultivation they thought best for
their land, and of insisting upon the tenant employing
such an amount of labour as they -considered requisite,
and however punctually a tenant might pay his rent, it
would excite no surprise in this country if a landlord,
finding his land going to rack and ruin, gave that tenant
notice, and put another in his place—the tenants them-
selves possessing considerable capital, and having to pay
the rates personally—(Hear)--had an equal interest
with the landlord in keeping dawn burdens; and thus
they had all the elements necessary for the successful
working of a poor-law, because both landlord and
tenant worked together.—(Hoar, hear.) But in Ire-
land they had a totally different state of things.
Many of the Irish landlords were habitually non-
resident, and there was no effective combination
among those who did reside there in the promotion of
their interest. Between the landlords and the occupier
of the soil in Ireland there was not to be found that class,
which in' England so essentially represented the sub-
stantial, labour-employing tenantry. The subdivision of
the land, too, in Ireland, was so minute as to render its
due cultivation matter of impossibility. The occupiers
were wholly unable to employ labour, and their interests
were apart from those of the landlord. While in Eng-
land the occupier is chargeable with the rate, in Ireland
it is imposed in the main on the landlord. Whatever
might be the law in Ireland on the abuse of property,
with which landlords were chargeable, the Irish land•
lords in the southern and western provinces were little
more 'than chief renters of the property which they
bold. It was not possible for them to exercise the
rights of property, no matter how much their land
might be deteriorated, or to turn out the most waste-
ful and prodigal tenant, for the purpose of giving
his tenement even to a neighbour, who might -be a
most industrious man. He stated this as a general prin-
ciple, existing, at all events, in the south of Ireland;
and he was Convinced that its accuracy could be attested
by many Noble Lords around him, as well as by the
landlords of Munster themselves. Under those circum-
stances; what' hope was there that the law which worked
effectively and beneficially in England could be harmo-
niouily carried on in Ireland? When a certain alteration
of the measure was proposed some time ago, certain ad-
vocates of that modification of the measure, contended
that if the laws were so amended, the occupiers would
employ an additional amount of labour. He contended
that a diminution of the amount then actually employed
would be the result, and his anticipation proved well
founded. Could it be expected under the circumstances
he had detailed, that the occupiers would employ more
labour than they immediately required, or that the land-
lord having had possession of the land, unable to conso •
lidate his powers, or to undertake their improve-
ment, would increase the amount of labour he had
hitherto • employed ?—(Hear, hear.) The circum-
stances of England and of Ireland were so far widely
different, that there could not be, the same harmony and
unity of action between the proprietors and the
tenants, as there was in this country. If the Govern-
ment meant to work the poor-law successfully in Ire-
land, they should introduce the principle of individual -
ising responsibility and benefit.—(Hear, hear.) Unless
they could by an alteration of the electoral divisions in-
dividualise responsibility, and thereby stimulate industry,
no tinkering whatever of the law would prove satis-
factory. In some districts the unions were inconve-
niently large, but he considered that the matter of the
extent of unions was of comparatively no consequence or
importance, as it did not affect the principle of indivi-
dualising responsibility. They had been told that Major
Torrens' report, with regard to a diminution of the area
of taxation, would be submitted. Now, Major Torrens
no doubt would ably and scrupulously discharge any
• duty confided to his care, but the question was, on what
principle was it intended that the re-modelling of those
electoral districts should take place ? He wanted
to know, was it on the principle of individual responsi-
bility ? ' If it was not, they could expect to do nothing,
and the report would be useless. He was told there ex-
isted a complaint of the inequality of property and popu•
Wien of one district as compared with another. If it
wes meant by this that the economic and rich tenant
should be joined with the extravagant and pauper tenant
in contributing to the support of the poor of a particular
district, then he contended that nothing could be more
unfair, or wore manifestly unjust. Let the faults of the
Irish landlords be what they might, and they were
dearly paid—for faults, which they were not perhaps
justly responsible with, many of this class were strug-
gling with difficulties which would ever whelm men, un-
less they were earnestly devoted to the interest of their
country, and influenced by stern duty. The Govern-
ment could not carry on the system of the poor law ex-
cept by the assistance Of men like these, and he cau-
tioned Ministeri, lest :he new system they intended
adopting might not punish such men for the exertions
of the past, and take away all stimulus to future
exertions, and all chance of withdrawing themselves
from ruin. The :Government not having thought fit to
state whether they considered the law capable of amend-
ment, or what amendments they deemed prudent, but
having thrown the whole of the great question before a
Committee, he felt it to be his duty, without, however,
usurping any portion of the responsibility- that attached
to Government, as a Peer and as an Irish proprietor,
deeply interested in the well-being of this country, o+
which Ireland formed an important part, to point out
how the law could be modified, and the principle on
which they should act. That principle was to give the
improving proprietor of the soil direct interest on the
improvement of his land, and a diminution of his rates,
and not to suffer him to be subjected to the support of
the pauperised tenantry of an adjoining property,
but to secure to him the benefit of whatever im-
provement he had effected in the condition of
his own tenantry. Then the question was asked,
what would they do with the paupers, and how
were they to be supported? This was a question of
est;ndinligethweatsadxeactiidonedol3i
Irelandopposed
upon to
theth e
aprogpreasvietiecnhaerta
whole of Ireland, for the purpose of meeting the general
expenditure of that country; for the effect ofsu eha
an
arrangement would be, to paralyze local exertion and ac-
celerate the progress of that ruin which was fast coming
on the Irish landlords; but if he were held liable for the
support of his own tenantry, and the protection from
distress of all persons residing on his estate, then he
-would gladly submit to a limited rate of ninepence or a
shilling, for the general purposes of aid. He would not
object to that sum, beyond the sustentation of his own
provided it were limited.
and that he knew pre-
cisely what he had to poor, pay. He would also lay down as
a rule, that until the rate witiatn any given time shall
exceed an amount of sg. or. 7s. in the pound, the elec-
toral districts now existing should not be altered; but
that when the rate exceeded that sum, when conse-
quently a state of manifest and increased pauperism
arose from the neglect or inability of those elected
guardians, their duties shall cease and be transferred
to paid guardians acting under the Poor-law
Commissioners. If a rate in aid were made, it should
be intrusted to the control of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners, and advances made to the paid guardians for
maintaining the affairs of the union, when the rate ex-
ceeded ss. or 7s. The anions of Kartuck and Killarney
showed that proper management had the effect of re-
ducing the, amount of expenditure. The Noble Lord
then proceeded to advocate emigration and colonization,
as means towards effecting the relief of pauperized dis-
tricts. The Cost of emigration to our North American
colonies would not be more than 31. or 4L per head, or
about the annual cost of supporting each individual in
the workhouse, and under the distressed circumstances
of the country, he thought, for the purposes of promot-
ing emigration, they ought to authorise the mortgage of
the rates. Then, again, there were large districts of
land lying waste and uncultivated, but land which had

;