The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-30 00:00:00

tt to ri
SUN OFFICE, Seven o'Cloch.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

(THIS DAY.)

HOUSE OF CoIiMONS.
The SPEAKER tcoic the Chair sh6rtly alter Twelve

o'c:o~k.

THE CHOLERA.

Mr. FREWEN wish-,(1 to put a ques'ion to the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head di the Home Department.
From accounts that appeared in the pap?r6, it was stated
that several very Ipid wises of cholera had recurred in
London, and that that dreadful disease was considerably
on the increase. He wished to know whether the Go-
vernment had taken any practical proceedings to secure
the health of the metropolis, and more particularly whether
any thing had been done to put a stop to interments in
the churchyard of St. Margaret, near that House?
Sir G. GREY said that the Board of Health had taken
every precaution to prevent the spread of cholera in the
metropolis, but they had no power to prevent burials
in metropolitan churchyards.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.

The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
On the 12th clause being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY said he feared the operation of the
clau-e would be found very prejudicial, and would give
great encouragement to oppression and_litigation by ex-
tending judgments to small sums.
Mr. N APIER thought the observations of the Hon.
Member applied to the 13th rather than to the 12th
clause.
Sir D. NORREYS considered that there ought to be
a clause to give addition.' facilitation for the collection
of the rates.
Colonel DUNNE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire, that the clause would lead to oppression
and litigation.
Mr. FRENCH objected to the clause.
Mr. S PAFFORD thought that the effect of this
clause would be that there would be no such thing as a
tenement left in Ireland.
Colonel DUNNE wished to explain a statement which
the Hon. Member for Northamptonshire had frequently
made in the course of the debate, that the mejosity of
Irish Kanbers had voted against the maximum rate ;
now the real state of the case waa that the maj eity of
Irish Members who had vetea foe the muxiinona rata
was as great us the minority who had voted against it.
Mr. SCULLY thought that if this clause were
passed it would be greatly to the benefit of Ireland.
After a few words of explanation from Sir G. GREY,
Mr. HENLEY thought that it was necessary to con-
fine the remedy which was proposed to the district
in which the poor-rates were raised. Ia many parts of
Ireland receivers were appointed, and he thought this
system was a great curse to the country. In those parts
where tho rates were not paid they would find receivers.
He would throw a suggestion to the promoters of the
Bill that the receiver should be obliged to pay the rate
,e hen a civic Bill was handed over to him.
Mr. SCROPE referred the House to the evidence of a
deputy-lieutenant of the county Mayo, by which the ap-
pointment of receivers was declared tobe of great benefit.
Mr. NAPIER thought that the suggestion of the Hon.
Mi mber for Oxfordshire was proviticd for in the 13th
clause. .

Mr. HENLEY could not see that it was.
After n iew words from Mr. NAPIER and Sir GEORGE
GREY,
Mr. MONSELL thought that Government had been
guilty of several omissions in the enactment of this Bill;
and, especially, in not limiting the operation of this
clause to the eleworal division.
Mr. G ROGAN decidedly approved of the
su!A,gestion or the Honourable Member fur Oxfordshire.
Mr. STAFFORD said, disguise the matter as they
would, the effect of the clans., would be to make one
man pay the debts left unsatisfied by the preceding
tenant, who might have lett his rates unpaid. lie was,
therefore, much opposed to it.
Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN denied that Irish proprietors
wished to sell out their tenants, and was Mad to see the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government in his
place. He insisted that the recommendations of tie
Committee should he embodied in the Bill. The 4/.
rating clause was the cause of the evictions in Kilrush,
and th... 1 landlords had not received any rent from the
tenants for several years. Last year he had to pay one
hundred pounds in rates for small houses on his pro-
perty, trona the tenants of which, he had received rent;
but next year such would be the condition of that pro-
perty that he should be compelled to summon the
tenants. He stated other cases of injustice to landlords.
Mr. P. SCROPE objected to landlords being allowed
to have any summary powers beyond those they pos-
sessed to eject tenants who were in arrear with their
rates. At such a season, when crops were failing and
the tenants could not pay their rents, surely they would
not add any o,her stringent powers to the hundreds that
had already been passed by landlord Parliaments.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought his Hon. Friend
(Sir George Grey) was quite right in not committing
himself to any future clauses which the Committee might
have to consider, because it was obvious that this
was a question of great difficulty, and that it would be
very inconvenient if the Government were to be com-
mitted to future clause=, and called upon to enact that
which, on consideration, they might not think ex-
pedient.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The proposal of
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick, seemed
very feasible—that, in the first place, the rates should
be levied on the electoral division, and, in the second
place, that the landlord should have the power to come
into the possession of his land, for the purpose of enabling
him to pay the rates fur which he had become
liable. On the one hand, the second seemed a fair
proposition, but, nevertheless, the objection of the Hon.
Alembr,r (Mr. Scrope) was a strong one. Indeed, he
should 1p sorry to give further power ofejectment in Ire-
land in order that tenants might be turned out when these
rates became due. On the other hand, a landlord
who finds that his tenant would neither pay rent nor
rates, he thought to make the landlord liable for a lung
period of arrears,. when, if he bad been in possession of
his property, he could have paid it, would be a great
hardship.—(Hear.) He thought, therefore, that some
limitation of time as to his responsibility in this respect
would go to some extent to remedy the inconvenience
complained of.
Culonel DUNNE said, he had expected some provi-
sion would have been made in the Bill before the House
with respect to the arrears of rent due from the tenants.
Mr. VESEY thought there ought to be some provi-
sion to prevent a landlord being made liable for the rates
of an unfortunate tenant, between whom and the col-
lectors Otero might be some collusion. If some such
provision as that was introduced into the Bill, he would
vote with the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
mew ; if not. he would vote cgainst it.
Mr. NAPIER, agreed it, the propriety of that sugges-
tion, but thought it was not involved in the clause under
consideration.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he wouli endeavour to bring
in a clause which would carry out the suggestion.
After a few words from Lord NAAS,

Mr. GROGAN said he would put the case of an oc-
cupying tenant who got into armar with his rates. lie
was summoned into a court of law, and a judg-
ment obtained against him. The probabidty was
that he was in arrear with his rent also,
and the landlord would naturally take the course or
putting an end to the ten iney. A judgment at-
tached to the tenant's interest in the land; the landlord
put an end to the tenancy, aed what became of the
judgment creditor?
Sir G. GREY made an observation on the case put
by the Hon. Member (Mr. Grogan) which was inaudible
in the gallery.
Sir L. O'BRIEN raid with respect to land lying
wasie, there were eases in which a long period
occurred before the landlord could get possession of it,
and when the landlord ejected the tenant, he (the land-
lord) found that he had not only lost his rent, but was
liable for a very large sum for poor-rates. lie (Sir L.
O'Brien) did think toe Government ought to make some
provision for a case of that kind.
Mr. STAFFORD fuegested the postponement of the
consideration of those two clauses until they were brought
up in connexion with ithe cl4u,eA which, as he under-
stood, the Government had pledged themselves to
bring in.
Mr. HERBERT was opposed to the principle of selling
one man's property for the debt of another.
Sir W. BARRON could not agree to the clause with-
out some positive understanding that there should he
some limit to it, end that the House would not give the
power to sell without giving also the power to take
possession of the lard from the party for
whose debt the land was about to be sold.
He protested against the statements made from
time to time by the Ilon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P.
6erope) with regard to the tenure of land in Ireland,
which were mere theoretic statements obtained from
pamphlets, rather than from an actual knowledge of the
country.
After a few words from Mr. VESEY and Colonel
DUNNE,
The clause was agreed to without a division.
Lord NAAS moved as an amendment to the next
clause, that the words " electoral division" be substi-
tuted for the word " union" iu the 431
Mr. HENLEY said, as they were dealing in a very
violent and dangerous manner by ex post facto legisla-
tion with men's
Property, he thous.r,bt some limit ought
to be introduced as to the priority of certain claims for
arrears of poor-rate. This limit he considered should
apply both with reap' et to time and amount.
S
it G. GREY preferred the word " union" to elee•
toral division."
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ..• 40

-Against it ...
••• 72
blajority
TLe discussion upon the clause was continued. -
The ATTORNEY GENERAL s,id, although this
appeared to Le an cx post facto law it was not substan-'
tially so, for no person could tak* possession of an
estate upon a judgment without first paying the arrears
of rates.
Aitor a few observations from Mr. NAPIER,
Tile clause was agro 'd to, as was also clause 14.
Mr. HERLIEta rose to propose an addi:ional clause,
object bicg to diminish the evils arising from the
existing law. He intended to discourage the eviction of
tenants, and thus, instead of injuring the towns, he would
confer a great boon upon them. lie did not pretend to
settle the differaLcei as between union and union, for
nothing but a law of settlement could accomplish such an
object, but still this clause would not increase these diffe-
rences. The Hon. Member then moved the following
clause:—" And be it enacted, that, for the purpose of
charging the expense of relief to any rating district, every
person making application for relief shall, after the
passing of this "Act, be deemed to have been resi-

dent in such ratnig;- dieaiet in a iiich durng The
pried of flee aes Lext immediately before .his
n.i,p:iiattien fir sell( I he haze been largesi
usuel ly r esident, Vet, er by usually occupying
any tenement situate or by usualiy sleeping NN ithin such
district: Teevided always, that where any such person
sheii not have oceuVed a tenement, or slept within any
suet: rating district first heat six months in the wli ile
daring the said period of five years, the expense of the
relief of such person shall in such case be borne
by and charged against the whole union in which
he or she is relieved. And be it enacted, that
when for the purpose of charging the expenses of
relief within any electoral division or divisions, the
limits cf such division or divi,sons shall be ahered, or
such division or divisions shall he subdivided by the
Commissioners into two or more rating districts, the
said Commissioners may, as they shall see fit or neces
sary, increase or alter the number of the guardians to
be elected fur such electoral division or divisions for the
parpo,e of enabling them to assign, if they deem it
expedient, oue guardian to each and every such rating
district ; cr if it shall appear to the said Com-
missioners inexpedient to mike any such increase or
alteration, then the said Commissioners may. in every
such case, but only for the election of guardians, form
any two or more of such rating districts into one
electoral division, and may have and exercise, with re-
gard to every such electoral division, when so formed,
the same powers of determining, anti from time to time
altering., the number of elective guardians, and
of fixing the qualification of such guardians as
are now vested in the said Commissioners with regard
to electoral divisions existing at the time of the passing
of this Act. And he it enacted, that from and after
the passing of this Act, every justice of the peace act-
ing for any county in Ireland, and otherwise qualified
under the law now in force to he, or to be appointed,
an ex officio guardian of any union within such county,
and who shall be seised, possessed, or entitled for his own
use and benefit of or to any lands, tenements, or heredi-
taments situate within such union, or in the rents and
profits thereof, for any life or lives in being, or for any
term of twenty-one years at the least, such estate being of
the yearly value of fifq pounds at least, shall be eligible
to be, or to be appointed, an ex-officio guardian of
such union, notwithstanding that justice shall not be
resident within the same. And be it enacted, that no
distress for nun-payment of any rate, or part of any
rate, shall hereafter be levied or taken upon any rateable
property being of the descriptions following, that is to
say: implements of husbandry, gardening or farming
utensils, horses, carts, and horse furniture, provided that
the ssme respsetively shall be in the aptual or habitual
use odemployment ot the person or persons possessing
the same."

Mr. FAGAN gave the Hon. Member every credit for
the goodness of his intentkns, but considered that the
clause would have a most injurious eff,ct upon Cork and
other large cities in Ireland.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he could not object to
the,clause, if 18 months were substituted for six months,
and three years for five years.
Sir D. NORREYS said this was really a question of
selfishness. He said it was not just to limit the period
to six months of the five years, during which a person
shall have shpt or occupied a tenant in the rating dis •
trict, before the relief of such a person shall be charged
against the whole union in which ho was relieved.
After a few words from Mr. SCULLY,

Sir W. BARRON said he hoped the Government
would adopt the clause in all ha integrity, and not limit
the chargeability to a three year.' residence.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL said the pre-
sent law had lat eu un encouragement to the horrifying
c:viet'ons iu Ireland, of which they had recently heard so
much. The persons so evicted fLicked into small vil-
lages, and bee .toe chargeable, if disc-ase did not carry
them cff, to districts %%hid' ought not rightfully to be
called upon to support them. This was an evil well
worthy the attention of the Government.
Mr. HERBERT said Ibis ellute was the best provi-
sion that had ever been suggested to the House for a
long time, for preventing the system of eviction in Ire
fend, and he hoped if the Government did not adopt it
in its in,egrit:,, thq would at least do so with some
ditication a. to time.

Atter souse discutrion it was agreed that the
clause should be ailopted, am: nded as proposed by Sir
IV. Sumrrville, with the exception of substituting
" twelve months" for " six months," as suggested by the
Right HOR. Baronet.
clause was then vgreed to by Mr. HERBERT and
Mr. C. LEWIS, with respect to the boundary lines of
curtain witms, to which all the unions in the electoral
division should be bound:—" And be it enacted, that
from and aster the pissing of this Act, every justice of
the peace acting for any county in Ireland, and other-
wise qualitird under the laws now in force to be,
or to be appointed, an ez officio guardian of
any union within such county, and who shall be
seised, possessed, or entitled for his own
use and br-nr-fit of or to any lands, tenements, or heredi-
laments situate within such union, or in the rents and
profits thereof, for any life or lives in being, or for any
term of twenty-one years at the least, such estate being
of the yearly value of fifty pounds at the least, shall be
eligible to be, or to be appointed, an ex-officio guardian
of such union, notwithstanding that justice shall not be
resident within the same."

Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the proposition—to
an increase in the number of ex officio guardians, and
hal opposed it in Committee, because the effect would
be that it would be difficult to make up the desired pro-
portion of ordinnry and official guardians. It was a
subject upon which much jealousy existed, and Ito con-
sithred that it would not be well to restrict the number
unless induced to do so by some argument which he had
not yet We ird.
Mr. FOX said his residence in Ireland adjoiried an
union, ii:Owhicli he and others had property, but vO:ho (Ed
not reside in it. It was but right that they shouldl sit as
CX-ggiCio guardians.
Mr. HERBERT considered that much good would
arise by gentlemen of property sitting as guardians. In-
deed, the great difficulty at present was to gei; properly.•
qualified guardians. Ho trusted, therefore, the Right
Hon. Baronet would withdraw his opposition.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped he would persevere with
it. The clause would favour a class who had great in-
fluence with the directors.

Mr. VEi,EY supported the clause, and stated cases
in support of it.
Mr. SCULLY considered that if ex•efficio guardians
did not attend to their duty, that they should be ex-
pelled.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, on the part of Ireland, with
which he was connected, this clause would be thought
most objectionable. There should be a division upon it.
The clause was amended on the suggestion of Sir
GEORGE GREY, and agreed to.
Mr. HERBERT then proposed—" That no distress
for non-payment of any rate, or part of any rate, shall
hereafter be levied or taken upon any rateable property
bei:ag of the descriptions following, that is to say; im-
plements of husbandry, gardening or farming utensils,
hor,es, carts, and horse furniture, provided tt.;at the same
resp, covely shall be in actual or habitual use or
employment of the person or persons possessing the
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL referred to the law
upon this subject, and was understood to give it as his
opinion ►hat such articles were exempt.
Mr. STAFFORD considered that, the English law in
this respect shoulo be extend, d to Ireland; the goods of
the poor tenant should be protected.
Atter a few worth from Mr. STAFFORD,
Sir W. BARRON sent that almost every clause in
this Bill was contrary to the law of Enbland.
Iu tthsrvvr to Mr. SCULLY,
Trio ATTORNEY- GENERAL stated the method
by which the rates could be collected.
Mr. CLEMENTS said that in the present state of
Ireland the only method of getting on was to meet
poverty with adequate relief.
Mr. MONSELL said that the argument of the Attor-
❑ey-General was just to the effect of putting on a pair of
thumbscrews.
Sir JAM ES GRAHAM said that if this clause were
pas%ed there would be no rate paid in Ireland.
Mr. SCROPE approved of the humanity of the
clause, but be thought that there was no other means of
getting rates.
Mr. O'FLAIIERTY agreed with the Right Hon.
Baronet who had just :pokers.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought that the rejection of the
clauie would ePttil additional poverty upon Ireland.
Sir A. BROOKE hoped that his Hon. Friend would
witi,draw his motion.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Mr. CLEaIENTS moved certain clauses regarding
poor-law unions, of which he had given notice.
Mr. MONSELL thought that these clauses would not
be of any use. He could not see the object of them.
Tho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that there were many instances in which these clauses
would apply. It was most desirable, in all electoral divi-
sions, to provide workhouse accommodation ; he almost
thought it would be advisable to withdraw all out-door
relief. He thought that those gentlemen who advocated
smaller areas of taxation wished to legislate for property,
not for the poor.
Mr. S.PAFFORD thought that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had not answered his Friend the lion. Mem-
ber for Limerick; but this he had done: he had fixed a
stigma on a large body of influential gentlemen. lie hoped
that he wcubt explain the hard words which he had
used, in order that he might retain the character of fair-
ness which that side of the Howe would always be wil-
ling to allow to hiLe. If not the burden of such a charge
must remain with him. lie hoped, however, that this
clauss would be rejected.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that he did not mean to apply the observations he had
made use of to his Hon. Friend opposite. The object of
the clause was to save the poor travelling great claitances
to obtain relief, and he could not therefore but think it
to orthy of the cansideration of the House.
Mr. HERBERT regretted the aspersions that had
been trade on Members on that side of the House by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was sure they
were totaiy uncalled for. As to the clause, it was im-
possible to say there might not be cases of hardship; but
ho did not see the necessity for legislation upon the
subject.
Mr. al J. O'CONNELL thought it would be Letter
to postpone the motion until the Government brought
forward its plan for the erection of new union work_
houses.

TheATTORNEY- GENERAL said this was only a
c
1; u:6 to en.Atile the Poor-law Commissioners to supply
the poor of a tow union with board and lodging in the
existing workhouses until new union workiwuses were
erected.

After some observations from Sir John Walsh, Mr.
Clements, Mr. Monself, Mr. Vesey, the. Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and oth.r lion. Members,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM suid they should never lose
sight that they were dealing not with a temporary, but
a permanent alteration of the Irish poor-law. lle would
not object to this clause if it were to be of temporary

LONDON,

and were inteu.d, d to meet a temporary
ditliciolj,y, but as a p rmancnt clause he •,tboueht it
would be at ten,!ed tivii.h cansid,rable di frio.liY... .Wit,)Out
wishing to eoter into any controversy, he might star
that he was most anxious that the size, of the unions and
electoral divisions in the south and south-west of
Ireland should ha materially diminished. Tke
standard of the ULtir unions and el,ctoral divi•
sions werii infiliitely preferable to the divisions in the
south and south-west —(Hear.) It was of primary im-
portance that there should be in a central position in
every union a workhouse which could be easy of accesi,
and if assistance were given by the Exchequer to
Ireland in its present difficulties, it could not be
more safely applied than in building new work-
houses. Time, however, would be required to eff-ct
these objects, but this clause might meet all immediate
difficulty, if the Right Hon Gentleman (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) would give a pledge that it should
only be of a temporary nature.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had not the slightest difficulty in giving such an as-
surance, for it was obvious to every one that nothing
could be more inconvenient, or even preposterous, than
to make the clause of a permanent nature.
Mr. CLENIENTS said it had never been his intention
to permanently introduce the clause.
After some discussion, " six calendar months" was
substituted for " one calendar month," and the clause was
agreed to.

-Mr. bIONSELL then proposeJ certain clauses rela-
tive to advancing moneys from the surplus of rates to
persons wishing to emigrate, and provisions for the re-
payment of the same.

fir
Denham Norreys, Sir W. Ferguson, and Colonel
Dunne, opposed the clauses.

Lord NA AS thought that the public money of Ire-
land should be applied to such a purpose.
After some further conversation, the clauses were
ordered to be added to the Bill.

Colonel DUNNE rose to move two clauses, to the
first of which he thought there would be no objection,
to separate the rate for the able-bodied from the rate
appropriated to the sick.

.1.4 r: C. LEWIS apprehended that the object of this
clause was already effected by the manner in which
the books of every union were kept. Ho trusted that,
under these circumstances, his Hon. and Gallant Friend
would not press his motion.
Colonel DUNNE declined to do so, but after some
conversation, was induced to do so.

Colonel DUNNE said his second clause would pro-
bably cause scrim discussion, and thought it would be
better if the Chairman would report progress.— (No, uo.)
Mr. VESEY •aid the principle of the Hoe_ and Gal-
lant Gentleman's motion had already been disposed of in
a former division.

Colonel DUNNE still thought it would be better if
the Chairman reported progress.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
it would be better that the Chairman should report pro-
press, and ask leave to sit again on .Monday,
as it appeared impossible to finish the Bill
that evening. It must, however, be understood
that the obtaining leave to sit again on Monday
was only for the purpose of postponing
the further consideration of the Bill to Tuesday, at
twelve o'clock, on which day he trusted they would
be able to go through all the clauses of that Bill.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.
The House adjourned shortly after Six o'clock.

THE ARMY.
(From the United Service Gazette of this day.)
NEGLECT OF THE COMMISSARIAT.—The offic,-rs of the
Commissariat department quartered at Dublin are not
included in the invitations (which are occasionally ex-
tended to officers of other branches of the service)
either to the Viceregal Court or to the hospitable
table of the Commander of the Forczs, or General
Officer or other commanding the district. We feel satis-
fied that these facts, as affecting a department second to
mine in the service for gentlemanly feeling and education,
require only to be known to the executive authorities for
the apparent and unintentional slight to meet a remedy.
We directed attention a short time since to a similar
sut,j'et, nearer home—the corps of Royal Marines not
being included in the invitations to the state balls at
Buckingham Pa!ace, %hid], we believe, was immediately
responded to iu a manner most gratifying to that gallant
corps.

STAFF, &C.—Colonel Lyons, 23d Fusiliers, is Town
Major of Purtsmouth garrison. Colonel Sir C. R.
O'Donnell has been removed to the Kilkenny, from the
Limerick, district, still holding the command at Water-
ford. Lord Errol has ceased to be an Aide de-Camp
to the Earl of Elgin, and has become an extra Aide-
de-Camp to Major• General the Honourable C. Gore.
Lieutenant Peebles, 59th Regiment, has been appointed
Acting-Paymaster to the depot of the regiment. Major
Bailey has succeeded Lieutenant Gloster as Acting-Ad-
jutal,t to the depot of the 38th Foot. Lieutenant
Persse, 12th Foot, is superintending officer of the Aber-
dee❑ recruiting district.
TRUCK SYSTEM IN THE DOCKYARDS.—In order to do
away with any trucking influence prevailing in the
dockyard towns, the Admiralty have ordered that no
one belonging to her Majesty's service shall keep a shop
for the sale cf tools.