The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

saw that the inhabitants could not levy money for the I repeal of the legislative union.—(llear, hear.) lie 1
relief of the poor, any two justices might impose a rate I trusted that, in the sig`-:t of that great Being who was
in aid for that purpose. And as regarded Scotland, by I cognisant of all their iiitentions, they would be 1
the 53d of George 111., it was ordained in respect to I found to be acting justly; and leaving the issue in His
some counties which had been reduced to a state of hands, he hoped it would prove as satisfactory and as
distress by a failure of the corn crop, that the Com- promising as any person must desire, who was anxious
missioners of Supply should assess and levy on all held- to remove the distress and miseries of that unfortunate
tors and landowners a sum of money not exceeding country. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, as an
14,000 L fur the relief of that distress So far, then, for amendment, that the Bill be read a second time on that
precedents. The provisions of the measure were simple. day six months.
They authorised the Poor-law Commissioners to levy a I The Archbishop of DUBLIN said, that if ever he was
rate in aid on all unions and electoral divisions for the I disposed to adhere pertinaciously to the opinion ex-
relief of such unions and electoral divisions as should I pressed in the report of the Committee appointed in
be in need of it ; that the rate levied be sixpence I 1835 to consider of the state of pauperism in Ireland, of
in the pound on the poor-law valuation, the trea- I which Committee he was a limber; or if he were ever
surer of the county being empowered to impound one- I so factiously inclined be would not attempt to detract
half of the ordinary rate, so as to extract from it a six- from the merit, which he thought, on such a question as
penny contribution until such rate was collected. In the li this belonged to the Government—for intending t,) pro-
whole of Ireland the rate would raise 323,0001., which, ivide for the wants of the Irish people at this time. But the
with the 50,0001. already voted, would exceed the I question, which ought not to be lost sight of, was, would
amount of contributions raised from extraneous sources I the measure prove one of permanent good for the future,
in aid of Ireland last year. Of course, in the circum- I by reducing largely the number of claimants for relief,
stances of Ireland, it must be evident that there were I and improving the resources out of which that relief
unions and electoral divisions which would not be able I was to be granted? He had himself foreseen, and he
to furnish their quota.—(Hear.) They were all made had also foretold, that in all probability another fai-
liable, because it was impossible to ascertain how far lure of crops would succeed the first, and that, in that
the range of insolvency would extend. Were the en- I ease, the demands for outdoor relief would be extensive
tire sum raised it would not be equal to meet the whole I and heavy. He had wished devout's' that things might
of the expenditure, and he apprehended Government I have turned out differently; but wh'at had been the re-
must still supply funds, where necessity existed, on the ; sult ? Very unfortunately, his prophecy came true.
credit of the rate in aid. The power to impose such 1 There was a great wart of food, and, along with it,
rate was limited to two years. and Government dis- , clamours for out-door relief. These clamours he felt
claimed any intention of continuing it longer. What, I himself bound to resist, and ho did so at the risk of
then, was the exact case with which they had to deal? being considered hard hearted, cruel, and indifferent to
There were many districts of Ireland, especially those , the sufferings of his fellow-countrymen. He believed
districts to the west of the Shannon, which were totally that many honourable and honest men were deterred
unable to support themselves, and as support could no i by a fear of these imputations from expressing their real
longer bs given them from Imperial sources, they sentiments, not only upon this, but upon welly other
had resolved on looking to Ireland for that support.: questions. As to being insensible to the sufferings of
The unions from which they could expect no support 1 his countrymen, be was likely to be amongst the last
were twenty-one, but there were ten or twelve others i who would become obnoxicese to that suspicion, for, in
on the verge of destitution, and others more or less in- i the discharge of the sacred functions of his office, he had
capacitated from supporting themselves.—(Hear, hear.) i had opportunities of seeing more of them than most
It would be in the recollection of the House that the I people. He had seen the suns of clergymen turning out
average amount of poor rate last year, in the whole of I to break stones on the reeds to support their parents, and
Ulster, was is. 911 per pound, Munster 3s. 71d. per .: students from the University go to enlist in the army for
1 lid. per pound. Con;paring ; the same purpose. This break down was attributed on
English unions, ho found from i all hands, to the poor-rates. The cattle, the seed, and
returns, that in twenty unions in different parts of Eng• ~the implements of the poor people had been taken
land the average poor rate last year was 4s. Id., and in
pound,that with
statens t
ofer the is.
from them to satisfy the poor-rate, and then they had
twenty parishes in these unions it was as high as Bs. 111 d., gone themselves to obtain relief at the workhouse. He
while in four or five others it was 12s. 11d. per pound. s mentioned these things to show that it was very unlikely
But it was said it was not ie the levying of this 63. in I he should be ignorant of, or insensible to, these hard-
the pound of rate that ..the objections were taken—it was i ships and their remedy. His great object was to pre-
against the principle of the measure.— (Hear, hear.) 1 vent these evils and hardships from being perpetuated,
And it was asked, why
and the town of Belfast be asked to contiibute for the 1 this measure was to obviate their recurrence? It might,
should the county of Antrim . and be should very much like now to understand how
' district of Mayo, more than Warwickshire should con- therefore, be accorded to him, that without bin;; indif-
tribute fur the distress of the town of Birmingham. It ferent to the troubles and distresses of the Irish people,
must not, however, be left out of view that Ireland was 1 ho might declare himself unable in his conscience to give
exempted from twelve millions of taxes, which England i his support to this measure of the Government.—(Hear.)
paid. And he, therefore, said there was nothing unfair or I
Lord 13EALT1IONT said he would own teat the
unreasonable in making the more favoured parts of Ire- subject was on all sides surrounded with difficulties; and
land, in this instance, contribute fcr the distress which . he was far from being unaware, especially, of the greet
prevailed in it, more especially as those were exempt 1 difficulty in which any Government must of necessity be
from many of the taxes by England. It was said l placed while endeavouring to legislate upon it. What-
the lucerne tax would be a preferable mode to the pre- t ever blame might attach to th:m in this respect, he
sent. He would not discuss that now, although at some I was sure that a large portion of it ought to rest with
future time the House might be called on to discuss the i the Irish Members themselves, who had male a point or
subject.—(Hear, bear.) All he could say was that her I resisting the progress of the measure. On the ether
Majesty':, Government would not have been indisposed hand, if the Government, upon becoming acquainted
had they found that the Irish Members preferred that I with this determivarion of the Irish Members, bad stated
system, and they gave them the opportunity of saying it fairly to the other House of Parliament, be fully
so, though they did not take advantage of it, of intro- believed that they would not have found themselves so
during the income -tax in place of the present measure. wanting in essistance as they had. Therefore, while he
Government, however, conceived that the reasons which I blamed the Irish Members for baying been uncandid
prevented Sir R. Peel from extending that Bill to Ireland 1 and ungenerous in their conduct, he also blamed thee
when he first introduced it, and also that the reasons which 1 Government for not having manite sted that resolution,
prevented Lard John Russell, when he moved its coati- which, in as crisis like this, they ought certainly to hone
nuation, from moving its being extended to Ireland, had shown.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Bill itself, its object,
not disappeared, and that therefore it had better not be like that of every Poor-law Bill, was to relieve those
extended to that country. But on the other hand the who could not tied any other support by their own
rate in aid did not require any of that machinery I means. He was sure, ho.vever, that the operation of
which would be requisite fur an income-tax in 1 this Bill would be to increase the number of persons
Ireland, nor any more expenses than were at present ' in that situation, and to decrease at the same time
incurred for carrying cut the poor laws, cur would it the means by which they might be assisted.
require even an augmentation of the staff. It therefore In the first place, a national rate would tend much to
appeared to Government to bo the easiest method that decrease the local interest'. Within a certain limit they
they had at hand to meet the demands which could be had a certain amount of control over the rates; but the
no longer resisted or postponed.—(Hear, hear.) He moment they spread the rate over a great extent of
should also say that the Government could not feel any district, that moment they lost all control over the. rate,
compunction for the advances that were made for build- 1 and lessened the bensficiel of-eta of, and interest in, the
ing workhouses in that country, as they had been the' operation of the rate. This rate in aid would, in point
means not only of sheltering and feeding many a desti- of fact, increase the number of insolvent unions, while it
tute poor person, but that they also gave employment would, at the same time, decrease the number of those
to many who would otherwise famish.—(Hear, hear.) which were yet in anything like a solvent state. Now,
It should also be borne in mind by their Lordships, that with respect to the collection of time rate, he warned them
Itution; that they would drive the poor man to let his one
there were several other Bills in progress through Par- that if they proceeded to distrain, they woul I but reduce
drive theme
Bement tor the relief of Irish distress, one of which was the unfortunate people to a state of still greater desti-
possessed of—that they would as a consequence
brat
increase
to abandon their lands, and that
stackln_ht go, or any other remnant of property which he
the general distress, the general pauperism,
taGonodmv
eaarknneonit suchhen Government
consideredfao nr
th e alterationtn o
betters : nna judicioustheod e porfes
disposinge pooranntfi he n
elofiafewi
the
es;
incumbered estates. If her were asked why not bring
!withouteadse' they would
measuressthatthatoins any material good. He warned them,
those
answer w a
alone was, that they could not wait. Next with regard )
would in collecting sitrfiheullanthis sixpenny rate, they
to the loan of money for the relief of that distress,
he but endanger the rate raised under the
assured their Lordships that that was given on the
onlyeousrloyaswointh
forttti shrminneglsnugrei,t hison '
also,
1 present poor-law, and thus rick that which they were
trust and credit of the rate in aid; and he hoped they I
i now receiving, as far as the people were able to contri-
would consider how very precarious that furtive charity i bate. He would ask them when they adopted this nee
must be if, in conclusion, ho should assure their Lord- I tional rate, what they were to do with the capitalist who
ships that statements from the poor-law Commissioners m might be disposed to invest his money in the purchase
strongly show, that Government dare not risk any further of land in Ireland? He (Lord Beaumont) did not, as
delay. Mr. Burke, the poor-law Commissioner of West- things presented themselves under this proposed rate in
port, states on the 7th of 'March, that their funds are in- aid, see that there was any guarantee to the purchaser
adequate to meet the meal and milk-contractors, and of land against excessive rates and excessive paupetism.
that the Commissioners will not hold themselves bound '• He felt and expressed himself with the certainty of a
I
to answer for the responsibility. He also stated, that prediction, that Ireland was fast progressing towards a
I
mortality was very prevalent, and particularly among state of transition, and painful though it might be, it
small children in the workhouses. Another statement was quite certain that the land in Ireland must, as a
of the 3d of April shows, that the people are for the consequence of the existing state of things, pass from
most part going about in an absolute state of nakedness, I the hands of its old proprietors into those of other
and are dying beneath some shelter or another by ; parties, who could better bear to meet the burdens to
hundreds, of cholera and other diseases caused by fa. I which property in that unhappy country had become
mine and distress. He hoped that the circumstances ' subject. If they were to seek for a mode of redressing
of Ireland would have that due impression on their the mighty evil which oppressed the country in the
Lordships' hearts which he felt assured his feeble shape of a vast population, for whom they could not
efforts could not effect, for the human suffering find the means of employment, and who were conse-
in that country was greater in its intensity quently reduced to pauperism and idleness, the only
than had been ever known to weigh down the ever- cure, in his opinion, for so great an evil, was to be found
gies of any nation, in ancient or modern times, and he in emigration on an extensive scale. Looking at the
considered that there was another aggravation, added to whole question, he must say, that he saw no course for
their miseries, and that was that their calamities were, him to take, but to give his vote against this motion.
from duration, losing that share of sympathy which they The End of ROSSE said the Noble Lord who had
before elicited. Ho hoped that their Lordships would just sat down, had so forcibly stated his objections to
look, not to the principle, but rather to the result, as the the proposed rate in aid, that he need not say anything
poor in the workhouses, who were at present supported i in addition on that subject. In all those objections he
at the rate of one penny per head per diem, must neces- fully concurred. He was convinced that if a vigorous
sarily die in thousands if not immediately relieved by effort had been made to assist emigration in Ireland
this measure, particularly as the meal and' milk con- some time ago, they would have had a different state of
tractors would not supply those victims of distress with things now. He saw no reason why they should not
the small portion that keeps body and soul together. make an effort to equalise taxation in all parts of the
The Earl of RODEN moved as an amendment, that kingdom, and in Ireland as well. The Noble Lord who
the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He introduced the measure seemed to labour under a mis-
had listened with every attention possible to the Noble take as to the contribution of Ireland to the Imperial
Earl (Earl of Carlisle), and was prepared to give him Exchequer, and for the support of its poor. The Noble
and the Government every credit for their sympathy for Lord thought its contributions in these respects were
the distress of that country. He was well aware of the I small. But how stood the fact? The income of Env-
anxiety of Government to meet those difficulties ; t land was 250,000,000/., that of Ireland was 26,000.0001.,
nor could he forget the honourable and generous or in the proportion of 121 to 1. Now that average
exertions of the late. lamented Lord Lieute- would make Great Britain contribute to the revenue of
nant of Ireland (Earl Besborough) in behalf the country 47,840,0001., and Ireland 4,160,0001.; but
of that distress; but he thought that her Majesty's the fact was that Ireland was now paying to the revenue
Ministers should go back to the real cause of that • 4,164,264/. er upwards, of 400,000/. more than her
distress, and not proceed, as they were now, by such an I just proportion. Then, as to local taxadon. The
unjust measure. He asked the indulgence of their Lord- rateable property of England was, in 1847,
ships while he was pointing out to them how little they one hundred and five millions, and the local tax's-
were aware of the state of the poor-laws in Ireland, and tion was twelve millions, while the rateable
what was the difference between the operation of those property in Ireland was 13,187,4211, and the local taxi-
laws in that country and in this In 1846 a Royal Corn- tion 4,294,3191., or three times larger in proportion than
mission was instituted to inquire into the circumstances the local taxation of England. He regretted that lie
of poverty under which Ireland was then labouring to i must admit, to the fullest extent, the reasons assigned by
a very great extent, and,
in consequence, it was thought a the Noble Lord for introducing his measure, namely, the
right that Government should propose an enactment for destitution which prevailed, but he considered that the
a time, for the support of the poor, but he should say measure would not meet the difficulty. It was the fact,
that law was not passed at the instance of that Commis• that the population of Ireland was too large in propor-
sion, but in accordance with the suggestion of Mr. tion to the means of employment. What he wanted to
Nicholls, who during six weeks in that country, ex. know was, had Government clone anything to diminish
amined most carefully into)he wants and conditions of 1 the population, or increase the means of employment?
tho people. He at that time opposed the measure when 1 They had done no such thing, but, on the contrary, they
debated by their Lordships, but when it became the law t bad by their poor-law of 1847, diminished employment.
of the land, ho (Earl Roden) became chairman of the The first step then would be to improve the administration
board of guardians, and was happy to state, that of the poor-law. The next step would be to get rid of the
through the exertions of the guardians and the in- out-door relief system, and ho considered the improving
dustry of the people, there existed a general satisfaction, the administration of the law would be the means of
and the poor were materially benefited. There was this doing that. They must, however, separate the Poor-
difference between the poor-law in England and Ireland, law Commissioners from the Irish executive before any
that in England the farmer paid his own rates, whereas good could be done. Until then the Boards of Guar-
in Ireland the tenant pays one-half and the landlord the dians could not have any confidence in them. Had that
remainder, and that all tenants holding ground under 4/. been done before, they would have never beard of the
pay no rates, but the whole is paid by the landlord. He quarter-acre clause. He would, then, recommend an
knew one landlord in Ireland whose rent-roll amounted equalisation of taxation over the whole of the United
to 10,0001. per annum from ono estate, 2,000/. from an- Kingdom, and that they should treat Ireland as an
other, from which were deducted for mortgages and English county. He concluded by saying, that he had
other family claims, 9,5001., leaving him only 3,5001. per no faith in the project for the plantation of Connaught,
annum, out of which he was obliged to pay 8001. per and that the improvement of the poor-law, and a proper
annum for the poor-rates. Such was the case with many system of emigration, were, in his opinion, the only
of the Irish landlords, which was never felt by available remedies for Ireland.
English proprietors. In consequence of the failure of the The Marquis of CLA.NRICARDE said the remarks
potato crop in 1845, the poor-law of 1835 was necessarily lof the Noble Earl who had just sat down must command
altered for the purpose of empowering the poor-law respect from all sides of the House. He bad, however,
guardians to afford out-door re lief to certain persons hoped that before he sat down he would have suggested
under certain circumstances, and that alteration caused some remedy fur the awful distress which prevailed in
actual consfication in some parts of that country. Again, Ireland, and to meet which the present measure was
in 1847, whenlrisheifficulties were as great, if not greater, brought forward. That measure was not proposed as a
than in 1845, attempts were made, and succeesfuly too, permanent measure, but simply as a temporary measure
both in private and in public, to avert those calamities; to meet an overwhelming emergency; and though it was
and he should say, notwithstanding what had been stated said that the amount to be raised under the Bill would
by some unworthy Irishmen, that the people of that bo insufficient, that was not the essential point in the
country felt and acknowledged the deepest gratitude, case. There were two points to consider. First, there
both to the Government and to the people of England, was an amount of distress in a portion of the empire
for their generous sympathy on that direful occasion.— which it was painful to contemplate, and the other was,
(Cheers.) The object of this Bill, as far as he under- that it was thu duty of Parliament and of Ireland to
stood, was rather to give power to the guardians to pay contribute for that distress. It was said it was unjust
I
the debt lent by the Exchequer, by selling the property to tax Ulster for that purpose; but where did they ever
of the country, as well as to relieve the poor, and against hear of a tax but was in some instances unjust? Ire-
that he protested. land had long enjoyed exemption from a large
Earl of CARLISLE—No, such is not the case. portion of taxation, and therefore Ulster had no
Earl of RODEN said he would read the opinions of right to claim exemption in times of prosperity, while
Mr. Butt on this Bill, and in those he (Earl Roden) fully she refused to contribute her just quota in times of dis-
concurred, for while they, the Irish landlords, were tress. The highest poor-rate mid in Ulster in any
willing to submit to any taxation which was fair electoral division was 4s. 5 d. for the year ending Sep-
and just, they were at the same time de- tember 1848, and the average rate over the whole of the
terminal to oppose so unjust and unnecessary province was Is. 11d. for the same period. He asked,
a measure as the present. They were ready to submit could a landed proprietor or a farmer be reduced to
to taxation, but it was not for them to specify what that pauperism by such a trifling rate, though he admitted
taxation should be. He thought that Government should that there was since a higher rate than the average, of
introduce a Bill for that purpose, and then the Irish 2s. 7d. in time pound. No ; such is not the cause of the
Members of both Houses would support or oppose it as pressure of the Irish people; but it should be more
they considered just; and he regretted to say that he justly attributed to the failure in the potato crops, and
thought nothing could be more unconstitutional than for , it was to meet a recurrence of these calamities through
her Majesty's Ministers to invite Members of the House this failure that this measure was necessary. It shouldiFee
of Commons to private meetings on that subject, as had, also known to their Lordships that the people of England
been lately done, It was in the performance of that would not contribute any more to the support of the Irish
duty that he had risen, and he now objected to the mesa poor while there was property in that • country ex-
sure on four grounds; first, that it was unjust in prin. I empted from taxation which should go to the support
eiPlet second, that it was inadequate to meet the objects I of their poor, and that much of that prestmern that
proposed for it; third, that it would destroy the work- bore so heavily on the English people was owing in a
trig of the poor-law; and fourth, that it would place the great measure to the want of a proper and judicious
strongest argument in the mouths of those persevering system of emigration. He was a friend of such a de-
men in Ireland, whose object was to destroy all friendly scription cf emigration, and considered that nothing
relations between the countries, by bringing llobollt a tended more to improve a proprietor's land than to ex-

peed some money id emigration; but he should, at the subsequent e reigns se-e(Dear, hear.) He should say
same time.. say, should any Noble Lord come to their that he was gre: it ly 'astonished that the Irish repre-
House and ask for a large sum for emigration, that no- 1 sentatives in this 1 House had given up all ideas of any
thing could be more wild or more unjust than such a other measure I is. a substitute ; for from the moment
proposition. Ho knew from the reports of the emigre- that the income- tex obtained a character of rejection in
don committee of New York, that emigrants from other their Lordships' 4 ;ominittee, then was all other expo-
p irts of Europe generally took money with them to that client and temporal y measures for Irish relief given up
country, but that the contrary was always the caee with by them. When i t had beeet stated that there was no
the Irish emigrant ; and he, moreover, knew that those security for those' grants implied in this-Bill, he (the
Irish emigrants, by their exertions and their industry, Marquis of Lansd, owne) should say that they had the
obtained as much as, was necessary to send for their security of. the reS mare itself ; that all money given in
relatives at nome, and he, therefore. hoped their Lord- this 13111 would bet repaid, and that the object that the
ships would pass this measure, as being calculated to 13111 had in view si ould be also effected.—(Llear, hear.)
save thousands from an untimely and premature grave, He disagreed wi ti t the plan of wholesale emigration as
who might at a future time, through their spirit of ad- a. safety-valve, for it would require much more ma-
venture and of travel, obtain comfortable means of living chinery, and s Lich an expensive mode of operation,
in the country of their adoption. He admitted that the that it would lee totally impossible to carry such a
•resolutions of their Lordships' Committee were against plan out. He, assured their Lordships that it was
the Bill, but it should be at the same time considered the firm opinion of the Government in Council,
that the second resolution was in favour of the practice that that Bill 'would relieve the awful and naelan-
of the Bill, that is, to relieve the people as immediately choly distress r iow so prevalent in the course of
as possible, for the measure was by no means a perms- two years ; and though much truth might be con-
nent one. If their Lordships would grant this rate in tained in the aes ertion that they were working in the
aid, he and the Government with which he was connected dark, ho should only say that they were unfortunately
would guarantee that no money would b 3 expended un- compelled to de, so; and that, therefore, they could not
less through the guardians, under the closest supervision before apply aney certain remedy to a disease whose
of the Government. nature and chat aster they were totally ignorant of until
Earl FITZ WILLIAM :did not think the measure it pressed with a arming violence on the condition of the
either adequate or just, and should, therefore, support Irish people. Be felt bound 'in the sight of God and
the amendment.—[Here the Noble Earl entered into a man to adopt, .owing to these oppressive circumstances,
comparison of the present state of Ireland, and its con- such a. course as would relieve this distress. He asked
dition before the failure of the potato crop, and argued their Lordships •to give the second reading to the Bill.
that Ireland was as much taxed as she could bear, and as it was by no a aesus of a permanent nature, and would
as much as England herself.] Why should unions be before the lapse +et" two years effect the object of all their
taxed in Ireland. more than in England ? Did they wishes.
mean to repeal the union ? Did they mean to have Their Lordshi; pe then divided, when there appeared—
copied in Dublin the example of the Hungarian Diet, in For the sc cord reading, Contents 4B •
issuing a proclamation separating that country from the Non•-contents•
Austrian empire? He was sure that the Government, T majority
in introducing this measure, had no such intention, but Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Two.
it was well to see that their acts did not tend that way.
If - they rejected this measure he was sure that
the 100,000!. to feed the starving people of Connaught
would tied its way there all the same. With regard
to the amount of the grant he would not pay the House
of Commons so bed a compliment, as to suppose that
it would not have given its consent to a grant
double in magnitude to that which was submitted for
its approbation ; but he thought that, in so fixing the
sum, his Noble Friends forming the Government bad
paid the House of Commons a bed compliment. He ob•
jected to the measure, as being totally inadequate to the
great emergency which called it forth. Unjust in its
operation, but, above all, he objected to it on the ground
of itseot containing any executory principle. lie ap-
proved of the extension of the income-tax to Ireland,
and then he should propose that the relief of the dis-

HOUS.N OF CO YIMONS, May 11.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
THIRD READINGS.

The London e .nd South-Western Railway (Extension
of Time for th a Purchase of Lands and Completion
of Works on the _Basingstoke and Salisbury and Fare-
tram and Alton I'd'ines) Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Railway
(Branch to Lend 'oil and South-Western Railway—Nu
2) Bill was read a. third time and passed.
The Windsor Ex tension of the Windsor, Staines, and
South-Western (11.4 Almond to Windsor).Railway (with
power to the Lori don and South-Western Railway
Company to subwr,ibe) Bill was read a third time and
pasted. •
EDINBURGH 11ND GLASGOW RAILWAY.

tressed unions should become a first charge on the re-
venue arising from the income-tax. Of this he telt the
more persuaded, as the income-tax being once. esta-
blished in Ireland, the Government would have a direct

The report on tb.e. Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway
and Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal (Amalgama-
tiou,Tor Sale, or Le tuie of the Union Canal to the Rail-
way Cuinyany)Bili was brought up and agreed to.
MORNINGSIDE. AND COLTNESS RAILWAY.

interest in improving the value of ad property there
upon which the tax would becoine chargeab'e., The
people of Engines! would soon perceive, be thought, that
the calamities of Ireland were more enduring than was
supposed, and he was convinced that if they did not
raise up the condition of the people of Ire-
land, the condition of the people of Ireland would
pull down the condition of the people of England.-=-
(Hear, hear.) Believing that if they were to reject this
measure they would not cause the death of one more
peuper in Ireland, he should not hesitete to support the
umeodtnent of the Noble Earl opposite.
The Earl ST. GERMANS sal that the distress of
Ireland had not been, nor could it be, greater than it
was at present; and believing that the object of the Bill
was to supply immediate relief for it, it should have his
earnest support.
Lord MONTEAGLE felt that he was but discharging
his duty in opposing this measure. With regard to the
Irish Members, he thought it right to inform their
Lordships that out of 105, the number of representatives
sent to tee House of Commons by that country, 80 of
them opposed this measure, and of the remaining num
ber, come were not in their places in the House, and
only 15 were found to be in favour of it. If he was
asked, then, how this measure was carried in that House,
his answer to their Lordships would be, that it was car-
ried by the overwhelming votes of the English Members,
in an English House of Commons. Their Lordships
should not give their support to a measure so
unjust, with their oyes open. Would it be
fair, in the face of such opposition from the
great majority of the Irish Members, and of
such a demonstration as was exhibited in the peti-
tions of the Irish people against the measure, to do so?
He considered that the proposed rate in aid was as im•
provident as it was unjust. He could not, upon this
subject, avoid directing their Lordships' attention to a
document which had been submitted on the question, as a
basis for their Lordships to form their opinion upon, and
he must say, a more erroneous document could not be.
It was officially signed, and the party who prepared it
took the whole rateable property of Ireland, as shown by
a former valuation. The document assumes that 2.-!-T, per
cent. would be produced by this tax. The parties who
prepared the document had before them evidence that
the property of Ireland, which they rated at 13,000,000/.,
had fallen from one-half to one-fourth, and they gave,
' as an estimate for their Lordships' guidance in the con-
sideration of this question, a former stater of things
in Ireland. In the union of Scarier and Ennis, for
instance, they had evidence that the property had
fallen in value from 100,0001. a year to 60,0001. Now
that was a fallacy for their Lordships to proceed upon.
With respect to the advance of the 100,0001., he did not
see what security there was held out for its repayment.
Certainly he did not see any in the prospect from the
rate in aid. In inflicting this rate in aid, their Lord-
ships would be doing a great wrong, and consummating
a great injustice towards the industrious pants of Ire-
land. If the rate in aid was paid, it would be so reluc-
tantly; but if it was not, the non-payment would be
ascribed to sectstrianiem and narrow-mindedness, so far
as the people of Ulster was concerned. Government
had better take care how they ruffled their feelings in
respect of this rate in aid. He further said, this rate
was unjust, and that injustice they were practising with
their.eyes open. But ft was said the rate was only 6d.
in the pound, and it was to be laid on only for two years.
Once passed, it would be like the income-tax—it would
be difficult to get rid of; once pass this measure, and
he defied them not to extend the principle contained in
it, should circumstances require it. If they passed the
Bill, they would do so against the wishes of the people
of Ireland, against the evidence taken before the
Committees of both Houses of Parliament, and against
tho votes of the Irish Members of Parliament. It was
calculated rather to augment than repress the misery of
Ireland; and if they persevered in the present course,
not only would the waste land remain uncultivated, but
the improved leads would become waste, for all the men
of capital and skill and industry were fast leaving the
country. The uncertainty of the legislation hid pro-
duced that effect, and unless they changed their system,
the country would soon become desolate. He would
therefore give his vote against the second reading of the
Bill, as it could not afford the slightest benefit to the
country.
The Earl of GLENGALL suggested the adjournment
of the debate; but there being cries of " Go on, go on,"
Lord AUDLEY rose, and was understood to support
the motion. He had heard it stated that those who op•
posed the measure did so in order to ehift burdens off
their own shoulders; but he had no doubt that when the
people of Ulster saw the necessity of doing something
for the relief of the distress which prevailed, they would
contribute most cheerfully. He conceived the measure
ought to be accompanied with others; and was glad to
see that it, had brew followed by the Incumbered Estates
Bill.
The Earl of WICKLOW said, upon what authority
the Noble Lord affirmed that those who opposed the
measures wished to shift burdens from their own
shoulders he could not understand. It was not the fact,
for every one who had opposed it bad shown the utmost
readiness to pay all just demands which could be made
upon them. All who had reasoned on this subject had
stated as their opinion that the Bill could not be limited
as to time or amount, and therefore if once passed would
be permanent. It was said that it was because the re-
presentatives of Ireland could not agree as to whether
they would have a rate in aid or the income-tax, but
that was not the case; for along with the Income-tax
the representatives of Ireland were told that they
would be saddled with other taxes, and therefore they
would give no reply. He would stipport the amend-
ment, because he heard no arguments from the Govern-
ment in favour of this measure which would convince
him that it was better than any other substitute which
' might be brought in, even iie this session, for it was not
too late at present.
Lord AUDLEY explained.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he consi-
dered that the Bill had been strongly and eloquently
supported by his two Noble Friends, both in her Ma-
jesty's Council (the Earl of Carlisle and the Marquis of
Clanricarde), although the contrary had been remarked;
and he, for his part, wished to.state the grounds of his
support, and what he expected from the measure. If
this Bill were of a permanent nature, and he had sup-
ported it, ho should at once retract, because it would be,
if permanent, in direct opposition to the principle of the
poor-law; but it is because it was a temporary measure,
and an expedient for the relief of Irish distress, that he
would support it, and press their Lordships to do the
same. Ho would ask their Lordships to consider the
measure, for though he was told that it was unneces-
sary for her Majesty's Ministers to bring such a mea-
sure forward, yet he should say thatett the commence-
ment of this session some such measure was requisite,
to obviate the difficulties arising from Irish distress
From the time that some of the Irish Members depreci-
ated the grants of the Government to their country in a
most ungrateful manner, it became the duty of the Go-
vernment to raise money in some way for this object,and,
consequently, to raise it from those in that country who
would be found able to contribute to the relief of the
poor. He should also say io the Noble Earl (the Earl of
Roden) that the resources of Ireland were not taxed to
the same degree as those of England, and that, there-
fore, such a measure as the present was requisite for
this purpose. The Right Rev. Prelate said that the
people of Ireland should be made to work in
such a /manner as to obtain their own
living; but he (the, Marquis of Lansdowne) should
say, what could they do without food, capital, or
strength:to work? and that to attempt force, was, he con-
sidered, against the laws of God and nature. Under
these circumstances, though ho acquiesced in the decrees
of Providence, yet he should say, that it was their duty
as Christians, in such transactions, to do as much as pos-
sible to mitigate and check that transition that arises
from famine of the most awful character, sweeping away
whole generations.—(Hear, hear.) When his Noble
Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) described the act of Govern-
ment, in; convoking during the Parliamentary session
a number of the Irish representatives of the House of
Commous as a constitutional twaddle, he (the Mar.
quis of Lansdowne) should say that that courao was
net by any means unprecedented, as such frequently
oteurrel in the reign of William and Mary,' sad in

The report on the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway.
and Wilsuntown, ilorningside, and Coltness Railway
Amalgamation Bil'i was brought no and agreed to.
MARRIAGE V rITH A DECEASED WIFE'S