The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 26, 1836.

should be 72 per cent. ; but he begged to call to theft. Lord-
ships' minds, that hegave notice of a motion on the subject to
be made in Committee. He had felt himself called on to offer
these few words with a view to call their attention to the real
subject before the House. The question was whether the
amount should be 7- tOths or 3-4ths.—( Hear. )
Viscount MELBOURNE held to the opinion which he ex-
pressed in those former days—he held to the opinion which
was expressed at those periods by his Noble Friends on his side
of the House, with respect to the amount of the rent-charge.
It certainly was not easy, by any particular arguments, to show
why 22i- per cent., or 25 per cent., or even 30 per cent. was
the proper sum on the present occasion.—( Hear, hear.)
His Honourable and Learned Friend on the floor said he
took 25 per cent. as a medium between 22 per cent. and
30 per cent.—( Hear, and a laugh.) It seemed to him that
his Noble and Learned Friend rather clung to the extreme
verge on the lowest side But he would press it on their
Lordship's consideration, that this Bill came up from the other
House of Parliament with the assent of that House, with the
assent of the representatives of Ireland, and it offered terms
on which this question could be settled.—( Cheers.) Was it
worth their while, then, to disturb that settlement?—( Hear,
hear.) Was it worth their while to make an alteration, which
was, at least, of a somewhat doubtful character? He did not
offer this remark with reference to the Parliamentary prac-
tice--(Hear, hear)—but because he felt that the alteration
would have a tendency to unsettle this measure.—( Hear,
hear.) There had been some laughter at the notion that the
proposition was made with a view to the interests of the land-
lords of Ireland ; but their Lordships would recollect that
the landlords were running some risk in mixing tithes with
rent. The Noble and Learned Lord said that the liberal
landlords did not desire so large a reduction. They talked
very big in this House—they talked very liberally on this
side the water on such subjects; but he knew perfectly well
that some of the liberal landlords of Ireland—of the Protest-
ant landlords of that country, were not so ready to pay tithes
on the other side of the water.—(Cheers.) There were
pretty plain proofs of that. And those who were willing to
pay tithes, were not unwilling to have a pretty large reduction
of the rent-charge.--( Hear, hear.) With all the great love
thus entertained for the Establishment—with all the devotion
they entertained for their religion—with all the attachment
they felt to the clergy of the Establishment—with all the
liberality they were disposed to show the clergy, he did not
believe there was one meeting that had been held by that
party in which they had dared to put the question as to
tithes in a single and distinct resolution.—(Cheers.) Those
meetings had come under his observation, he had watched
them, and he had seen that there were on such occasions
plenty of attachment professed for the Church—plenty of at-
tachment professed for their religion—plenty of attachment
professed for the Protestant clergy—but an attachment for
tithes was never professed at any meeting of which he had
witnessed the proceedings.—(Cheers.) He did not think
that they dared to venture to put such a resolution at those
meetings. The Noble and Learned Lord who made this
motion said that the clergy of Ireland were in a better
state at present than ever they had been in before, and
that the energy and power of the law had super-
seded and supplied the deficiencies resulting from the
supineness or indifference of the Government. These
were strange things to put in opposition—it was surely
strange to put in opposition the Government and the law.—
( Hear.) He had imagined that the Government never acted
except by the law.—( Hear, hear.) And with respect to the
situation in which the Noble and 'Learned Lord stated the
clergy at present to be, it was proved by the Noble Duke that
they received, owing to the defect in the law, their tithes from
the landlord, but no progress was made in levying the tithes
from the occupying tenants.—( Hear, hear.) As to the Tithe
Composition Bill, and the compulsory commutation, it might
take many years, he apprehended, before the tithes of Ireland
could be put in that state that they could be recovered from
the landlord.—( Hear, hear.) The question then was, whe-
ther, for the sake of this 5 per cent. or 6 per cent., it was
worth while to disturb an arrangement which had been ac-
ceded to by the other House of Parliament, and which in all
human probability would be satisfactory to the people of Ire-
land, and wholly settle the question.
The Earl of WINCHIL SE A would ask why was it pro-
posed this year that five per cent. more should be taken from
the clergy than it was proposed last year to take ? He had
not heard a single argument in support of that proposition.
There was no body of men who took so little of what they had
a right as did the Protestant clergy of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
They did not take a fiftieth part of what they were entitled to
as compared with the clergy of this country. The Irish
clergy had suffered much persecution, which he laid to the
charge of the Government, since it never would have happened
if his Majesty's Ministers had enforced the laws. Were they,
he would ask, to do an injustice now from an apprehension that
a greater injnstice would be threatened next year.—(Hear.)
He would say, let them do honestly, and fear nat.-4 Hear.)
Lord WH A RNC LIFFE asked the Noble Viscount oppo-
site if he would venture to promise that this would be a final
measure. His Majesty's Ministers had been told in another
place, that it was not to be considered a final measure, that it
never could be, that it was only a step to something else, an
instalment of what they must expect to have paid in full here-
after. Had it not been said that there were other questions
behind, other and more serious questions affecting Ireland, and
to that it must come at last?

The Marquis of LAN SD 0 WNE was free to confess that
speaking for himself he did not consider this as the most im-
portant part of the present Bill. Yet, looking at it as a great
national settlement, he regarded it as worthy their deepest
consideration ; and with respect to its being a settlement, and
to the opinions expressed by individuals referred to by the
Noble Baron, he would ask what great question was there
which had been carried to a successful issue, in the progress
of which similar declarations had not been made by individuals
engaged in their support ? If such declarations had been
allowed to exercise an influence they would have marred and
destroyed every great question in which the Noble Baron and
himself had been engaged through the whole course of their
Parliamentary lives.—( Hear.) What was the value of tithe
property to the Church and to the tithe owner? They would
find that it was not more, according to every calculation he had
ever heard of, than 16 years' purchase. And he would tell
the Noble Marquis on the bench opposite, that this was not
the result of any expectation of the " extinction" of tithes
a word with respect to which he might say a good deal, but
he would refrain on the present occasion; but it was so under
the most energetic government—under the most Orange go-
vernment—under the governments of the Irish Parliament,
and of the English Parliament, subsequent to the Union--
under all these governments the Noble Marquis would find
that tithes did not bring a greater value than 16 years' pur-
chase. Well, then, they propose to give to the tithe-payer
the security of land, and they found that if the tithe-owner
and the landowner of Ireland were to attempt to raise the
amount of his estate in the form of mortgage to pay the value
of the tithe, he would obtain that mortgage for the amount,
according to the present rate, probably of 641., but certainly
not less than 701. To illustrate his meaning, he would take it
this way : Suppose the tithe were worth 1001., were to sell
for 1,6001., which was what it would sell for at 16 years' pur-
chase ; the landlord could redeem this by raising 1,6001. on a
mortgage, which he would get from any capitalist at four per
cent or four and a half per cent., that being 64/. in the former
case, and something more than 701. in the latter. Thus there
would be given pro tanto a smaller sum, with the increased
security, and a larger slim where the security was not so good.
Let him not be told, then, that that was an arbitrary principle.
The principle was this, that if for something insecure some-
thing more secure were given, there would be deducted the
difference in value between this insecurity and that which was
less uncertain. That was surely just. The calculation might
not have been correctly made, but he did not perceive any
fallacy in it. The Noble Lord concluded by earnestly recom-
mending the measure, observing that he was a landowner him-
self, and certainly it would not have his support, if he could
see anything unfair or unjust in its principle.
The Marquis of WE STMEATH said, in explanation, that
he never intended to set tithe property above its r;.al value.
Lord A LVANLE Y asked their Lordships whether there
was the slightest hope that this amendment could be carried
into effect, as long as they conscientiously entertained the
opinion they now professed?
Their Lordships then divided on the amendment ; the
numbers were—
Con tents
Non Contents

126
48

Majority for the amendment 7B
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Clauses 5,6, 7,8, 9, and 10 were then agreed to, with
some verbal amendments.
On clause 11,

Lord L YNDHUR ST had to propose an amendment to
this and the subsequent clauses, which related to one sub-
ject, viz. the opening of the composition. He thought the
better course for him to take would be to give something of a
history of the manner in which these compositions had been
entered into, because it appeared to him that a bare know-
ledge of the circumstance would be a sufficient answer to
the proposal to open the compositions so far as re-
lated to those which had taken place under Mr. Goulburn's
Act; the re-opening- of the compositions entered into under
Lord Stanley's Act he did not mean to oppose. The first Act
was passed in 1824, and the second in 1832. His Lordship
then went into a detailed dsscription of the pro Visions of Mr.
Goulburn's Act, and contended that the parties who had en-
tered into compositions under that Act had every reason to
believe they would be final. His objection was not only to the
re-opening cf the compositions, but also to the tribunal by
which the questions were to be decided. Under the Act of
Mr. Goulburn and Lord Stanley, the parties who had to decide
the questions were the Privy Council, who had power to refer
the matter to the Judges of Assize. In the present Bill it
was proposed that barristers should be sent down, at a cost of
five guineas a day, and their travelling expenses; so that the
wretched incumbent was to be threatened first with three
barristers ; secondly, with all the costs of the proceedings ;
and, thirdly, with the difficulty involved in consequence
of the time that had elapsed, and of their having
destroyed the vouchers which they ought to have to pro.
duce. The result would be that they would feel they
were at the mercy of the parties assailing them, and they
would be glad to come to an arrangement upon any terms that
might be proposed. He called on their Lordships to reject
this clause, and all those clauses which related to the same
subj,-ct. He proposed, as an amendment, that so far as it re-
lated to the compositions which took place under the former
Act, not to re-open them, and as regarded the composition
under Lord Stanley's Act, that they might be re-opened in
cases of fraud or concealment—not, he repeated, by the revis-
ing barristers, but by the Privy Council, with power to refer
the case to the judges of assize.
The amendment having been put,
Viscount MELBOURNE said, the clause in the present
Bill was similar he believed to the clause in the former Bill
presented to their Lordships. He must confess he had felt
that this was the most obtjectionable clause, in point of prin..

ciple, of any to be found in the Bill. He considered that it
was a clauae which must rather be viewed as an exception,
founded on special circumstances, than as one that could be
said to stand on its own intrinsic merits. It had been repre-
sented to him, and on that information the clause had been
framed, that whatever compositions had formerly been entered
into, they were in fact extremely unequal, and in many cases
extremely oppressive. It appeared to him that when they
were contemplating a departure from principle, it was much
more satisfactory to comprehend as many cases of redress as
possible. He thought it better, then, that their Lordships
should adopt the Bill, as brought up by the other House ;
but, if the Noble and Learned Lord persisted in his amend-
ment, lie should not take the sense of the House upon the
question.

Lord CA RBE Y said that the tribunals before which ap-
peals were made ought to be local, otherwise great hardship
and expense would be entailed upon parties.
Lord PLUNKET had reason to know that the operation
of Lord Stanley's Bill had produced great expense and incon-
venience to parties.
Lord L YND HUR ST suggested that the Assistant- Bar-
risters might hear appeals, with an appeal from them to the
Judge of Assize.
Lord HATHERTON said the whole time of the Assis-
tant-Barristers was already fully occupied. His own opinion
was, that appeals should be heard in the respective parishes,
by what number of barristers might be settled upon a future
occasion. This would be the most cheap and efficient way.
Lord LYNDHURST thought that the Appeal Judges
ought to be paid by Goverament.
Lord HATHERTON said the effect of relieving parties
from the costs of appeals would be to open every compensation
case in Ireland.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH suggested to the Noble
and Learned Baron to postpone the further discussion as to the
compensation of the appeal tribunal.
Lord LYNDHURST was understood to assent to' the
request.
The other portions of the Noble and Learned Lord's
amendments were then agreed to, and the following clauses up
to 22 inclusive were struck out.
Clauses 23 to 49, both inclusive, were then successively
agreed to, with a few verbal amendments.
Upon clause 50 (the appropriation clause) being read,
Lord LYNDHURST said that the House, in arriving at
this 50th clause, had got upon an entirely new subject.—( Op-
position cheers.) The forty-nine previous clauses had all
closely related to the measure for the commutation of tithe in
Ireland—a measure admitted on all hands to be most de-
sirable, and which was stated by the Noble Viscount, in the
strongest terms, to be a measure most beneficial to Ireland,
in being eminently calculated to effect the very important ob-
ject of securing to that country that peace and happiness,
the absence of which had for so long a period been made the
subject of general complaint. It would, therefore, be very na-
turally asked, why this measure—entire and perfect measure
as it was—(Hear, hear, hear)—a measure unanimously as-
sented to by every Member of their Lordships' House, and
all but unanimously assented to by the House of Commons—
it was made a matter of very natural inquiry, why a measure
in itself so perfect and so desirable, and so unanimously
assented to by both Houses of Parliament, had not, long be-
fore this, been passed into a general law.—( Cheers.) A Noble
and Learned Lord, a distinguished Member of the Govern-
ment, had exhorted Noble Lords on his (Lord Lyndhurst's)
side of the House to pass this measure into a law ; and he
(Lord Lyndhurst) would very earnestly reciprocate the same
exhortation to the Noble and Learned Lord and his friends.
—( Hear, hear.) The question was, then, what could be the
reason why this so beneficial measure, this measure so warmly
eulogised by all parties, had not been finally adopted by the
Legislature?—( Hear, hear.) The answer was as ready as it
was complete ; it was simply because his Majesty's Ministers
had thought proper to engraft upon this desirable measure a
proposition of a very different character, a proposition which
had no natural or necessary connection whatever with it.--
( Cheers.) Year after year the Noble Viscount had re-
proached those Members of the House with whom he (Lord
Lyndhurst) had the honour to act, with rejecting a measure
which lie described as so essential to Ireland ; but he (Lord
Lyndhurst) would altogether deny that they had rejected it ;
on the contrary, they had adopted the measure.—( Hear,
hear.) In the last session of Parliament they had expressed
themselves quite willing to consent to its being passed, but
they then, as now, absolutely refused to consent to the other
proposition engrafted upon it—a proposition so widely dif-
ferent from it—and this was the reason why the measure
had not been passed into law.—( Hear, hear.) What was then
reason of all this ? That reason had its origin in, and was
fully borne out by, the fatal resolution which had been passed
upon the principle involved in the House of Commons.—
( Hear, hear.) He was far from wishing to speak disrespect-
fully of any measure adopted by that body, but in reference to
those who originated and framed, and carried through the
measure of which he spoke, he must call to the recollection of
the House the fact, not denied even by the party themselves,
that they had acted together in recommending it to the House
of Commons in the view and determination thereby to over-
turn the then Ministry, and to put themselves in office.—
( Hear, hear.) Of such a proceeding as this (looking to its
object merely) lie would leave the House to judge ; all he
would say of it was, that it did not appear to him to be a
very laudable one.—( Opposition cheers.) But when he con-
sidered that the party in question must have known, at the
time they were forming their plan and putting it into execu
tion, the fearful consequences which were likely to result from
it, and which, in fact, had resulted from it—the mischievous
effects which it must infallibly produce, not only upon the pre-
sent but the future condition of the country—when he con-
sidered that this party must have been fully aware that in
what they were doing they were acting against the best in-
terests of the country, that they were introducing a proposition
which must infallibly become the grounds of serious discord
between the two Houses of Parliament—(hear, hear, hear)—
a proposition eminently calculated to form a bar to the pass-
ing- of that very measure which they themselves so loudly
cried for as almost amounting to a panacea for the misfortunes
of Ireland—when he considered all these circumstances, lie
must at once fairly say that there were no terms of reprobation
sufficient to mark his sense of the conduct of those who had
been instrumental in bringing forward the proposition in ques-
tion.—( Loud Opposition cheers.) If any arguments were
wanting to show the impropriety of this proposition, they were
fully supplied by the circumstances to which he had adverted.
At the time the resolution spoken of was passed, the state of
the Irish Church was totally misunderstood.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The grossest, the most absurd exaggerations, had
for a long time existed on the subject. It was unneces-
sary for him to advert in detail to the statements made in
Dr. Doyle's often quoted letter ; the general summing up of
that letter was, that the revenues of the Church of Ireland
amounted to several millions sterling ; and that the Protestant
population of that country, meaning that part of the Protestant
population which conformed to the Established Church, was
only 320,000.—( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter from the Op-
position benches.) This was one of the absurd exaggerations
which were industriously circulated. Again, in 1834, a Mem-
ber of the House of Commons, a gentleman who had honoured
the present Ministry with his support upon great occasions,
but who, it was to be remarked, had within the last day or two
exhibited some alarming symptoms of wavering—( A laugh)—
a gentleman, moreover, who had no inexperienced head at
figures—( A laugh)—he alluded to the Hon. Member for
Middlesex—this gentleman, in 1834, actually stated to the
House of Commons, as the result of sundry close calcula-
tions he had made, that the precise amount of the reve-
nues of the Irish Church was no less a sum than 3,300,0001.
—( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) Such being the exag-
gerations carefully set abroad, it was no great matter of
surprise, certainly, that a very warm feeling upon the sub-
ject should have arisen. It was true, no doubt, that since
that period, these statements had been subjected to the
correction of facts ; and that, consequently, such repre-
sentations had been very considerably modified ; but what
the House had to consider was, that at the time the mis-
chievous resolution in question was passed by the House of
Commons, these misstatements were in full operation, and
had given rise to the existence of a very general impression,
that the revenues of the Irish Church, as compared with the
members of that Church, were most extravagant and enor-
mous.—( Hear, hear.) It being now, however, made clearly
apparent that these statements were gross exaggerations, that
the revenues of the Irish Church were not more thin were
necessary to provide for the care of the 900,000 souls under
its charge, all common sense, all reason, loudly protested
against the idea of longer adhering to a resolution, whose
foundations were laid in the grossest misrepresentation of
the real state of the Irish Church.—( Hear, hear.) Upon
those grounds he confidently submitted to the Noble Viscount,
that he was fully justified in throwing over, and entirely
abandoning the principle involved; and he firmly trusted
that the Noble Lord would never consent to sacrifice the
best interests of the country for what might, in fact, now
be looked upon as a mere punctilio.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
There were other grounds for abandoning this prin-
ciple, which he would beg to submit to the Noble
Viscount. The Noble Viscount had told the House on• a
former night, and had told it, moreover, with great em-
phasis. that all his measures were his own ; that he suffered no
dictation, no influence, no control, direct or indirect, to bias
his conduct.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh from the Opposition
Members.) This was a declaration which it had given him
( Lord Lyndhurst) great satisfaction to hear ; he had of course,
never for a moment supposed that the Noble Viscount, upon
any occasion, would permit direct dictation to be exercised
towards him by any individual or any body of men ; but at the
same time he must observe the House was pretty generally
aware that there did exist an individual—an individual de-
scribed by the Noble and*Learned Lord opposite as the fa-
vourite of the country—( A laugh)—the House, he would
repeat, well knew that there did exist an individual who at this
point of tin-ie was placed in such a position as to be able either
to uphold or to destroy the present Administration.--( Loud
Opposition cries of " Hear")—by that individual's fiat must
the Government stand or fall. Such being the case, such
being the position of the Noble Viscount and his colleagues,
trembling under the sword which hung suspended over their
heads—the House might entertain some apprehension that—
however decided the Noble Viscount might repel direct in-
terference—some indirect influence or control might, by pos-
sibility, be exercised upon the proceedings of the Government
by the individual alluded to.—( Ilear, hear.) Our great dra-
matic poet had it, that—" While the lion fawns upon the
lamb, the lamb will never cease to follow him."—( Loud
laughter.) lie ( Lord Lyndhurst) was glad to find that such
was not the case in the present instance, and that the Noble
Viscount permitted neither direct nor indirect influence to
control him. That being the case, he would earnestly ap-
peal to the sound and manly mind of the Noble Viscount, and
beseech of him, looking at the situation of the country, and
the evils which this principle, if adopted, would draw upon it,
not to permit any idle fantasy on his part to stand in the way
of the passing of a measure which all appeared to agree in
looking upon as essential to the tranquillity of Ireland and the

security of the empire.__( Hear, hear.) Not long since the
Noble Viscount had been pleased to direct their attention
to what he described to be the decreasing nwnber of their
political friends in the House of Commons, exhorting
them to adopt this as a test whereby to calculate the pro-
priety of the course they were pursuing. It was true that
this solemn warning and advice on the part of the Noble
Viscount proceeded from him in a moment of temporary ele-
vation and excitement—at a time when his party was up high,
very high—as high as eighty-six—at almost movement height
—( A laugh)—but it was equally true, that at the present
moment the said party was down, down very low indeed—
down as low as twenty-six, something below the freezing
point.--( Renewed laughter.) The House would recollect,
probably, that at the period when the resolution was first pro-
posed in the other House of Parliament, though it was pro-
posed by persons in Opposition, against whom of course all
the influence and power of the Government in the House was
arrayed, yet, nevertheless, that resolution was carried by a
majority of thirty-seven or thirty-nine. Since then a year
and a half had elapsed, during which time the present Go-
vernment had been in possession of all the power and influ-
ence incident to holding office, yet notwithstanding, at this
moment, their majority in the other House had come down to
twenty-six.—(Opposition cheers.) If, therefore, decreased
numbers were to be taken as a warning for a change of policy,
he would beg the Noble Viscount's serious attention to the
lamentable fact just stated, and he hoped the Noble Viscount
would take the counsel in the same good spirit with which he
had so often condescended to proffer it to the acceptance of
others.—(A laugh.) When the Noble Viscount recollected
how the majority in question was composed, when he called to
mind the statement he himself made that he had opposed to
him the Church, the Universities, the landed interest, the gen-
try of the country, the meat majority of the Peers of the
realm—when the Noble Viscount considered all these circum-
stances, he (Lord Lyndhurst) could not but think that the
Noble Viscount would pause before he ventured to persevere
in the course which he had hitherto pursued.—(Hear, hear.)
What was the object of the measure? The object of the mea-
sure was, by a new arrangement of benefices in Ireland, by a
new distribution of the incomes of the Church there, to
squeeze, if possible, out of it some sort of surplus, to be ap-
propriated according to the provisions of the Act, The first
question was whether, after allowing an ample and pro-
per provision for the Clergy. of the land, any such sur-
plus would remain ? This he was prepared to deny.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Viscount had the other night,
in a peceliar tone of voice, exclaimed, " Here, you, who
have all along been wanting to find a surplus, here's one
for you.—(Hear.) Now, as he Lord Lyndhurst) was
quite sure that there was no man in that House more alive to
the ridiculous side of things, as he felt as sure that the Noble
Viscount in his own mind, at the very time of uttering this
exclamation, must have utterly ridiculed and laughed to scorn
the idea of the surplus he affected so to vaunt.—( Hear, hear.)
By the Bill, it was proposed to reduce the number of benefices
of Ireland from 1,385 to 1,250. Now, taking the whole ex-
tent of Ireland to be twenty millions of acres, this divided by
1,385, would give for each benefice nineteen square miles, and
dividing the Protestant Established Church population of Ire-
land upon the same principle, this would give to each clergy-
man the care of 615 souls. Making these facts as the basis
of his argument, he would contend that there were no grounds
for diminishing the number of livings in Ireland. Then as to
remuneration. Taking the number of livings stated 1,385,
the balance, then, was 459,050/. This was the sum to be ap-
propriated to the parochial clergy of Ireland, and it included
tithes, ministers' money, and the produce of glebe land, which
was stated to be 86,000/. After making the allowance to the
curates, according to the Act, of 1001. each, the result would
be that there would be left for the rector or vicar of each be-
nefice 2741. The sum stated 'by the Noble Viscount, on a
former occasion, of the amount which each rector or vicar
would have was 295/., which exceeded the amount he (Lord
Lyndhurst) had stated by 211. ; which, multiplied by the
number of benefices, gave a deficiency of 26,000/. They
knew what the state of the Irish Church was, and he was
willing to take the statement respecting it as issued by the
Government—and he believed that he should be able to
satisfy the House that so far from any surplus arising,
there would be a deficiency. He had already said
that there was a sum of 459,050/., which was to be appropri-
ated to the clergy. The charge upon the fund, according to
the statement of the Noble Viscount, was 361,938/. The
Noble Viscount now made the to' al of the surplus 75,000/.,
but upon a former occasion, he said that it would amount to
97,612/. Ought they then to take this sum of 97,6121., ac-
cording to the items stated on the other side ? He believed,
however, that he should at once satisfy the House that there
were items which would completely destroy this surplus.
There were the sinecure benefices, the income of which was
stated to he 9,000/. and this would go to the diminution of
the revenue of the Church. Again, there was the sale of ad-
vowsons, for which no provision was made, and the calculation
was, that if there was a dimunition of done-half the present
amount on each sale, it would cause a loss of not less than
25,000/. The glebe lands were 86,000/. According to the
report of the Commissioners this would be reduced to 76,000/. ;
here was a loss of 10,000/. Again, the charge of 27 per
cent. charge for collection, would amount to 9,000/. The
amount stated for each curate was 75/., therefore to make up
the 100/., a charge of 251. would be made on each incum-
bent for each curate in his benefice. Then the tax on livings
would amount to 20,000/. It had been said that the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners could limit or increase this
charge—they could not do so. It was quite idle
therefore to say that the tax on livings should be omitted from
the consideration of the subject. The items therefore which
lie had stated, together with two or three others previously
alluded to, would amount to 103,000/., and the surplus was
only, when at the utmost, said to be 97,000/. Therefore he
thought that he had clearly shown that the deficiency would
be more than the alleged amount of surplus.—(Hear.) lie
begged Noble Lords to recollect that a clergyman must be a
man of education, brought up to a learned profession, who
must live decently and dispense hospitality to those around
him. It was necessary that he should be able to live in such a
way as to obtain their respect of those amongst whom he re-
sided, and also to maintain and educate a family; and yet it
was proposed to give him for this purpose an income of 100/.
—( Cheers.) Was it the desire of the Noble and Learned
Lord that a clergyman should be allowed only such a miserable
pittance ?—( Hear, hear.) It was not more than any Noble
Lord would allow to an upper servant.—(Cheers.) There
were also 800 clergymen of parishes, rectors or vicars, who,
under this Bill, were to receive a less income than 2001. Thus
then two-thirds of the clergy were to have their incomes re-
duced below 2001.--( Hear, hear.) Was the House prepared
to approve of this ? In this Bill you cut the income of cler-
gymen down to 100/. a year, in order to have a surplus. But
the Bill was not to come into operation during the lives of the
present incumbents; they must all die off before it could be
brought into full effect. They screwed to the lowest point
the income of every future incumbent in Ireland, but they
could not get their promised surplus until all the present in-
cumbents were in their graves. So much for this part of the
case ; and it appeared that the most important interests were
to be risked by such a mischievous scheme as this.—(hear,
hear.) But who were to modify—who were to cut and pare
down livings to the scale in this Bill ? Why, a Committee of
the Privy Council. The number was not limited, but it
solely depended on the will or caprice of the Minister for the
time being.--(Hear.) The members of this Committee were
not to continue in office for a fixed time, or during good beha-
viour, but were to be removable at the will of the Government
for the time being. There might be some security as long as
the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government continued
in office, but it was impossible for them to tell how long this
might be. " Nature's copy is not eternal." They could not
say who would succeed him.—( A laugh.) It was not pos-
sible for them to predict who would have the appointment
of this Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Would Noble Lords
place the clergy of Ireland at the mercy of those of whom
they knew nothing, or of those who might be their ene-
mies ?—( Hear, hear.) He believed that if this was agreed
to, some of the worst enemies of the Church might have the
exercise of the controul he had alluded to.—( Hear, hear. )
They proposed to reduce the Church of Ireland to the very
lowest ebb, but they did not stop here. The decision of this
new tribunal, this Committee of the Privy Council, was to be
taken on other matters—it was empowered to make arrange-
ments from time to time for re-modelling the Church when-
ever they pleased, and still further, they could cut down the
incomes of rectors and vicars at their pleasure.— (Hear, hear.).
They had the power of reducing the incomes of incumbents of
mere than 1001. whenever they thought proper. They might
reduce the income of the incumbent of 2001. to 150/. ; of
3001. to 2501. ; of 400/. to 350/. ; and so on. They would
thus have the power of reducing the revenue of. the Church
of Ireland upwards of 70,000/. a year more than was now
stated.--( Hear, hear.) What the Noble Viscount said with
blowb
efore
on the
the House.menl
respect to the measure of last year, he (Lord Lyndhurst)
would say with reference
inflictingetothesuch a
measure
He would be no party
bers of the Church ; he would not give such a cause of hope
or triumph to the enemies of the Established Church, by re-
jecting such a measure as he trusted that House would pass.—
( Hear, hear.) But he might be told that he did not consent
to the measure without rejecting some important parts of the
Bill. But for what purpose had they been introduced into it?
for they had no necessary connection with it. For what pur-
pose, he asked? For the purpose of conciliating the agitators
of Ireland.—( Cheers.) '1 ins was the openly avowed object.
Vain and idle hope.—(Cheer.) They have repeatedly told
you that they would not conciliate them, but that they would
take it as an instalment..---( Hear, hear.) They have repeat-
edly told you that nothing would satisfy them but the com-
plete and total extinction of tithes, in whatever shape or form
they existed.—(Loud cheers.) They have repeatedly told
you that as long as the Established Church continued to exist,
in whatever shape it might be, that they would continue to
agitate and distract the land.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore he
contended that it was vain for the Noble Viscount to attempt
to satisfy them by any such measure : it would only excite
them the more to pursue the system they were now acting
upon. lie had no objection to a large, a liberal, an ex-
tensive allowance of money being taken for the education of
the Irish people. Indeed he had given proof of this ; for
when lie had the honour of being a member of his Majesty's
late Government, he warmly supported the proposition for
increasing the sum for the education of the Irish people from
35,000/. to 50,000/. He had no objection to make any grant
which would effect this important object, and he was sure
that that House would do everything in its power to attain
that desirable result--namely, the moral and religious educa-
tion of the people. The Noble Viscount on a former occa-
sion stated that he was most anxious that a measure for the
settlement of this question should pass whether he continued
a Member of the Government or not. By adopting the clause
he intended to propose, they would give effect to the wishes
of the Noble Viscount, and as the Noble Viscount had made
made use of such observations on the subject, he (Lord Lynd-
hurst) trusted that he (Lord Melbourne) would not oppose the
adoption of the clause. The first object of his clause was to

I

reduce benefices above 500/. to that amount, and ttiat!:-ttit.---; :---
amount thus obtained should be devoted to the at!ritnetital`--.......1-:•.%
tion of smaller benefices, provided the artiount-svas----- Iliit 1 .:.`,,c
raised above 3001. He intreated the House to niceil*r."..?' ''.-
the measure thus altered and midified; and fortheir lie 4n...-,--.:
\es trotted the Noble Viscount, and h:s ass'ociates in .i46-1_
~"...
receive the measure in the same spirit in which he p ' OSTid.L- r3i
the amendment. He never knew men in a Government t idOdr.-,"."-,-'
in a situation more enviable than that in which they now stood 'JP',
with respect to this measure —( Laughter from the Ministerial
benches, and cheers from the Opposition.) H r meant whit
he said in solemn seriousness; for he was satisfied that by
accepting the measure with the alterations which he prJ-
posed they would do much to tranquillize Ireland, and they
would pat an end to what had so long distracted the
country. The Noble Viscount might live long and propose
many measures, but nothing which he could do would ever
surpass the good that he would effect by agreeing to the
amendment then proposed. He should, therefore, prodose
an amendment to clause 50, the terms of which he read from
the table.—(Cheers.)
The question was then put, that clause 50 stand part of the
Bill.

Viscount MELBOURNE said, that it was impossible for
biro to accede to the request made, or to the course com-
mended with so much eloquence by the Noble and Learuel
Lord. With respect also to the course recommended by his
Noble Friend on the cross benches, he would say that instead
of asking concession on the appropriation clause on that (the
Ministerial) side of the House, that it would have been just
as reasonable for the Noble Lord to ask the other party to
concede. From the language just used by the Noble Lord he
was in hopes that Noble Lords opposite were about to give
up the opposition to the principle of appropriation, and to
give to the country the full effect of this measure. They
had also been urged in a very eloquent manner, by the
Noble and Learned Lord, to give way on that side of the
House and abandon the clause as it stood in the Bill. This
advice no doubt might be very easily offered, but it would
be equally reasonable and consistent to ask the Noble and
Learned Lord to give way on his side. He begged to state,
that these clauses could not be struck out of the Bill without
without being fatal to its efficiency. The Noble and Learned
Lord seemed to think that they could not continue these
clauses in the Bill without its proving fatal to it, but that they
might attain all that was required by Ministers by striking them
out, and by substituting his amendment ; but for his (Lord
Melbourne's) part, he would say that if they omitted these
clauses, he would wash his hands of the Bill, and would not
persist in the measure, which would be deprived of the princi-
ple to which, indeed, he was pledged, and which he deemed it
necessary to make it effective for the purpose to which it was
directed. The Noble and Learned Lord had taunted hint
with some arguments he had used on a former occasion with
respect to the increasing majority for Ministers in the House
of Commons. The Noble and Learned Lord endeavoured to
prove his (Lord Melbourne's) argument against himself, by
stating that a falling off in the number of the majority
might now be urged against him.—(Elcar, hear, hear.)
The Noble and Learned Lord did not attach much
weight to this argument when it was applied against himself,
and he (Lord Melbourne) did not see why it should have
more effect when urged against him. He had on the occasion
to which allusion had been made referred to the progressive
increase in the number of the majority in the other House in
favour of Ministers--namely, that it had gone on increasing
from 7 or 10 to 86; but the Noble and Learned Lord had
taunted him because the majority in favour of the appropria-
tion clauses in this Bill had declined from 37, which it was last
year, to 26. Now this might be matter of accident—( Laughter
from the Opposition, and hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches)—but whether it was so or not was immaterial—
( Hear)—but he would tell the Noble and Learned Lord that
he (Lord Melbourne) and his colleagues stood on that prin-
ciple—they stood on the principle on which they had received
the support of a majority of the other House—they stood on
that to which they were pledged; and if they were not longer
supported in the maintenance of that principle they were
immediately ready to resign the office they held—(Hear,
hear)—but they would not resign while they believed that
they were supported by a majority of the other House of
Parliament—and by a majority of the country.—(Cheers
from the Ministerial side of the House, answered by cheers
from the Opposition.) The Noble and Learned Lord had
also adverted to another argument which he supposed he had
used on a former occasion. He did not then admit what he
had stated as a fact, but had made the admission for the sake
of argument. He then said that he would admit that the
bulk of the gentry were opposed to them, that the bulk of
the clergy were decidedly opposed to the Administration,
but that he would not go into any calculation as to the
amount in number on each side ; but supposing this to be the
case, he requested the Noble and Learned Lord not to rely
too much on that circumstance, because, in fact, on looking
back to the history of this country, it would appear that
the bulk of the nobility and gentry had never opposed
themselves to the general feeling and opinion of the country,
but that they had been beaten in the -long run.—(Cheers,
and laughter.) This was what he meant to state, and what
he said with perfect sincerity, and from his anxiety to pre-
serve the Constitution and to promote the welfare of the
country.—( Hear.) He could not help feeling that it was a
sound and wholesome truth, and he had stated it without in-
tending to say any thing in the least degree insulting, or to
hold out any thing like intimidation. He repeated, he con-
ceived it to be a wholesome truth, which he thought should
be present in the minds of Noble Lords, and should be alive
in the recollection of their Lordships.—( Cheers.) He had
stated the general grounds on which he intended to rest with
respect to the surplus. It would be impossible for him to go
through all the figures to which the Noble and Learned Lord
had adverted ; he had before him very long calculations in
support of the view of the subject which he had taken in re-
gard to a surplus, and in accordance with the principles laid
down in the present Bill. Fur his own part he firmly be-
lieved in the accuracy of these calculations. The Noble and
Learned Lord said, when he (Lord Melbourne) stated that
there would be a surplus on a former occasion, that it was
perfectly evident from his manner of doing so that he was not
sanguine in his belief that there would be a surplus. He
owned that there was a considerable difficulty as to arriving
at anything like an accurate estimate as to the amount, for it
must obviously be very difficult to calculate accurately what
would be the sum derived from such a variety of sources. As
to whether the sum would be large or small, it might hap-
pen, as often happened in other calculations, that the sur-
plus which they calculated to amount to only a small sum
might be of a large amount, and consequently much more than
theyelad anticipated ; and it might happen, on the con-
trary, that a different result should be attained. It was only
the general result that he meant to express ; but he could as-
sure Noble Lords that, as far as he was able to judge, if they
acceded to the measure, and adopted the principle of appro-
priation as laid down in the present Bill, the peculiar effect
which he had stated to the House would be produced.—( Hear,
hear.) It was not his intention to make many observations in
reply to the remarks or insinuations which had been thrown
out as to the influence under which he was supposed to act.
He had before alluded to this subject, and had directly contra-
dicted the various statements that had been made ; but he must
again say, that if such influence as had been described was
exercised with reference to the present Administration, he
was utterly unconscious of it, and he did not know anything
whatever of the existence of such controul ; and, of course,
for that of which he was unconscious, or which was unknown,
to him, he could not be held responsible. He would only
state in reply that which he had repeated on a former occa-
sion, that the Noble and Learned Lord had given credit to a
statement without credit or foundation. But the Noble and
Learned Lord now said that the part of the measure before
the House to which he objected had been adopted for the put-
pose of conciliating the agitator of Ireland.
Lord LYNDHURST observed that he had said agitators.
He had used the word in the plural sense.
Viscount MELBOURNE—WeII, then, as for the concilia-
tion of agitators, he begged to deny the observation, as he for-
merly did, and to remark, as he had done when he had brought
forward the proposition, that his object was to conciliate the
w !tele country, and for the purpose of settling the question
which the Noble and Learned Lord had himself said they
should make any sacrifice to set at rest, which had so long dis-
tracted the country, and so long produced so much discord and
iesde .ir—oetg(oaCfr dhimenegarast;h)ce l
ea Withderane,sThieleicethh
atdoh
eswo what
dissension in that liotsival
lt ehge e cl Noble
would Lord
fallhtaod
lo'ecasie.arisa- agt oo nn tt
toe clergyrn ake.
o f At
hr tee rClalluding
It
roe taha ed hadchearat
ac
tt
ee
dr
that
they proposed to grant them incomes less in amount than the
salaries which Noble Lords allowed to their upper servants.
Was that, he would ask, the way to consider the question
How many public functionaries were allowed but a small in-
come ? He could not help thinking this was one of the worst
comparisons that could be adopted.---( Hear.) He believed that
if the matter was carefully examined into, it would appear the
the average amount proposed to be allowed to the Irish clergy
was considerably superior to that made to the clergy iu Eng-
land. He believed this to be the case; and Noble Lords
ought also further to recollect that Ireland was a country in
which everything was much cheaper, P.' :e.l the scale of prices
much lower than was the case in tt's country. He stood up
to declare his adherence to the great decided principle of the
Bill which he had adopteli and which lie had determined
to abide by, and fro an adherence to which he could not
depart, without a necessary sacrifice of his character and
reputation, And the success of which, he firmly believed,
would 1 beneficial to the country, and which he and his
colleagues were determined to stand by.—( Loud cheers. )
Allusion had been made to a resolution on this subject which
had been adopted in the other House, and it had been cen-
sured as highly reprehensible. He knew that the resolution
had been adopted at the end of a long political contest, but
ho contended, and he firmly believed it to be the case, that
the resolution was framed in milder language than such
things generally were at the end of a political contest. If
there was anything violent or indiscreet in the language of the
resolution, it was as much owing to the pertinacity manifested
by Noble Lords opposite in attachment to office as it was to
the feeling of the party opposed to them.—( Cheers.) But
lie was of opinion that the resolution in question was not in-
discreet—lie was of opinion that the resolution was not rash
and violent, but that it was calculated to set the question at
rest, on grounds which would be really satisfactory to the
country. Therefore, not only in point of honour, but in point
of feeling, in point of every regard which they could consider
binding on themselves as public men, he and his colleagues
felt bound to adhere to the principle and to the letter of the
resolution ; and on these grounds lie should give his decided.
negative to the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord
(Cheers.)
The Earl of MANSFIELD could not concur in the
principle, that because there was a small number of Peotes-
tants in a parish, therefore the church in that i
par-sa Sleould be
allowed to fall into decay. Even in parishes where there were
only 25 Protestant parishioners he did not believe a minister
of the Established Church would bo placed in vein. He cool