The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-31 00:00:00

SUPPLY.
_ The House went into a Committee of Supply on the Civil
Uontingencies.
The sum of 64,4501. was proposed for defraying the ex-
Pense of public buildings and public works.
Mr. HUME complained of the manner in which these esti-
?Dates were made out. The cost attending each particular
work or building- ought to have been made out separately, and
regularly classified. There were different items, mixed up in
the estimate, which created great confusion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said every
effort had been made to make it as clear as circumstances
would permit. He should be very ready to give the items in
more detail where it could be done.
Lord G. SOMERSET•said a more detailed explanation
Would be very desirable.
Mr. GOULBURN complained of the destruction of so
many of the old trees in Kensington Gardens for the purpose
°1 carrying on the improvements that were in progress. It
Was desirable that some controul should be exercised over these
Who were emploped in carrying on this work. To cut
findo and destroy the venerable trees, which afforded such an
agreeable shade and were so ornamental, seemed to him
"Piling but improvement. The same sort of process was
going on round the Lord Lieutenant's Lodge in the Phceuix
Park, Dublin.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if
they wished to afford the pleasure of shady walking to these
who were to come after them it was absolutely necessary to
remove decayed trees, and supply their places by a fresh
growth.

GOULBURN said that many trees which were per-
fectly sound were removed.
Nr. HUME said he inspected the improvements that were
going on in Kensington Gardens, and he highly approved of
them. The plantations were too thick before, and prevented
the public from walking there, except at certain times of the
Year.

Mr. HAWES complained that the expenses of the British
Museum were placed under so many heads. He hoped that,
next year, the whole of the expenses of that Establishment
Would be placed under one head. They would thus become
tnore clear, and be more easily controlled.
Mr. F. BARING said when the new buildings were
finished the various expenses might then be comprehended un-
der one vote.

Mr. lIECIE wished to know whether Buckingham Palace
was to be inhabited or not ? If the King did not wish to live
in it the sooner it was converted to some other purpose the
better. He begged to know, at the same time, what was the
Ilse of Marlborough House ? He understood that it was
given, and was, in fact, her Majesty's private property. If so,
Why was there a charge of 4,0001. set down in these estimates
for repairs ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said Marl-
borough House was not in the possession of her Majesty. It
Would come into her possession in a certain event, the demise
of the Crown. It was, in that case, the residence provided
by Parliament for her Majesty. The sum set down in this
estimate was merely for keeping the house in repair. Buck-
ingham Palace was not yet in a state of readiness for the re-
ception of his Majesty. Some further expenditure was re-
quired, but not to a large amount—about 15,000/.—(so we
understood the Right Honourable Gentleman, who was scarcely
audible. )
Mr. WAK LE Y complained that during the late holydays
the British Museum was closed to the working classes. He
thought it was very desirable that at such times the public
Should have an opportunity of seeing that valuable collection.
He would call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer to the inconvenience arising on Sundays to the public,
from the great number of carriages that were collected round
the Zoological Gardens. It operated as a complete nuisance.
Those whbo went to enjoy the pleasure of a walk were pre-
vented from passing for a whole hour together. There could
not have been less than 1,000 carriages collected round the
place.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it
Would be very desirable that the British Museum should be
open at those times when youngsters returned from school to
enjoy the vacation. He would consult the trustees, for the
Purpose of ascertaining whether some arrangement could not
be made for that purpose. With respect to the great crowd
of carriages in the• Regent's Park, it arose naturally enough
from an anxiety to visit the valuable collection in the gardens.
He did not see how any obstacle could be thrown in the way
of those who were desirous to indulge a very natural curiosity,
Which afforded an innocent amusement. This, he believed,
would not be opposed by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, who
was so zealous for the due observance of the Sabbath.

Sir A. AGNEW could not admit that on the Sabbath day
such indulgence of curiosity was an innocent amusement.
Mr. R. COLBORNE was quite favourable to opening the
Museum during the holidays.

Mr. POTTER—It had been observed by an Hon. Gentle-
man that the Zoological Gardens being open on a Sunday
vas a rational recreation; if so, surely the British Museum
was a still more rational mode of spending some part of that
day. lie was decidedly favourable to the Museum being open
to the public on Sunday afternoons; and persons frequenting
that institution on such occasions, might do so perfectly con.
sistent with the observance of the Sabbath, as they might first
attend some place of worship in the morning. He was con-
vinced that that was a much more proper and rational mode
of spending Sunday afternoons than frequenting the gin-shop
or the public-house, both of which arc open on Sundays._
(Hear. ) There arc thousands of the inhabitants of London
would thus be enabled to visit the Museum, whose avocations
during the week-days would not allow them to do so.
In the estimate for keeping in repair the Loyal Palaces, there
was an item of 1,0001. to keep in proper order and airing
Buckingham Palace, from which he inferred that his Majesty
did not intend to make it his residence • and in the Letters of
a German writer, it is stated that his Majesty is averse to re-
pair to the New Palace. Under these circumstances he (Mr.
Potter) would beg to suggest that the Palace should be appro-
priated for the use of the two Houses of Parliament. He be-
lieved it might with a moderate expenditure, be made suitable
for the purpose—.and a million of the public money saved.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought it worth while for the House to
take that question into their consideration.
Sir A. AGNEW hoped now the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would see to what his doctrines would lead. If any such
attempt were made, or any such proposition fell from the
Committee, he should instantly divide the House on the bring-
ing up of the Report.
Mr. F. FRENCH said it would seem from the observations
of Hon. Members that there was one description of persons
who were to have no holidays at all—he meant the officers
of the Museum.
After some few remarks from Mr. HAWES, the vote was
agreed to.

-The sum of 15,0001. was then granted to defray the expenses
of the works of the harbour of Kingstown.
The sum of 12,226/. was granted to defray the expenses of
the works at Port Patrick Harbour.
The sum of 6,4551. was granted for the purpose of repairing
the Holyhead and Liverpool mail coach road.
On a vote being proposed, of a sum of 25,3601., for the new
buildings of the British Museum,
Mr. HAWES objected to the sums of money which bad
been already laid out on these buildings, and thought no more
should be expended till the Committee hadmade some special
inquiries on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
wa3 quite clear that the buildings must be completed, and that
the money would be wanted, but he would take care that no
portion of it should be expended till more satisfactory inquiries
had been made.--( Hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the Committee might, with
great advantage, take into their consideration whether or not
It would be advantageous to form similar establishments in
different large towns in the kingdom, and to assist any local
Committees which might be formed for that purpose, with
earliamentary grants.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
such an inquiry would be beyond the province of the Corn-
Inittee ; and, moreover, though there were some national
acquisitions which made a just call ma the national purse, yet,
as far as the various localities of the kingdom were concerned,
he thought it far better that they should develope their own
resources, and satisfy their own taste. In the course of the
present session he hoped, however, to be enabled to lay on
the table a very small estimate, but for a very important object
----viz., fora national school of design for the immediate prac-
tical improvement of manufactures, and to serve as a model
school for that purpose.—( Hear, hear.) There were also two
supplementary votes for which he should ask, connected with
two important acquisitions proposed to be made by the British
'loseum, both connected with the manufactures and arts of
the country. He mentioned the subject now, that Hon. Gen-
tennen might not he taken by surprise.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG would be glad to know the nature of
the Proposed acquisitions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
rather decline making them at present.
Mr. HUME thought it was high time that something was
done towards extending the hours during which the public
itere admitted to the British Museum. This subject had been
talked about, but nothing had been done. There was no
ilea,7on in the world why the Museum should be shut on the
,staudays on the contrary, those were the days on which more
varticularly those of the public who could not come out at
other times to be assisted in their endeavours to make them-
lrea masters of the amusements and instruction provided for
them at the national expense. Nor was there any reason why
the
Museum should not be opened at nine in the morning and
continue open until dusk.
be Mr. WAK LEY saw no reason why the Museum should not
Opened on Sundays. It would afford the poorer classes
%rational and beneficial mode of spending their time on that
of}' and one which was far preferable to their present habit
sPending the Sunday in the gin-shop.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could have
~cen hesitation in saying, what he had already said on former
,easions, that he was of opinion that an extension of time
ls desirable. And, what was more, if any way could be
Painted out to him by which the public might be admitted to
tilt institution on the Sabbath day, without interfering with
kee right which the officers of the Museum had to the enjoy-
-0,2t of their day of leisure, he for one would not be found to
17cfe the opening of the place to the public on that day.
ouch, however, was not the proper time at which to discuss
oniv a question. ,This was a vote with respect to the building

Sir A. AGNEW rose to protest against the Museum being
ope
'uo to the public on the Sabbath day. If such a propo-
°ll
.Were to be acquiesced in, he would vote against the
grant
tiotSisrtz!; FiRE MANTLE said that the Hon. Baronet should
the mnd alone in his protest against the proposition to open
Ho "seum on Sunday to the public, for he would join the
Baronet in condemning a proposal which he conceived
gri:
Museum were to be opened on Sunday, there would

then be no reason for refusing the same privilege to the Na-
tional Gallery of Practical Science, or to many other similar
exhibitions, and he conceived that it was impossible to say
where this would afterwards stop. Why, upon that would
follow a preposition to open the playhouses themselves on
Sunday.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME said that if the Hon. Baronet (Sir T. Fre-
mantle) assumed to speak the moral feeling of the countr; on
this subject, he (Mr. Hume) begged to inform him that he
had either wholly mistaken the state of the public mind on
such subjects, or that he wished to impose on the people the
necessity of adopting his (Sir T. Fremantle's) own peculiar
views. The difference between the Museum and the Institu-
tions the Hon. Baronet had mentioned was, that the latter
were established for trading purposes, while the British Mu-
seum was a public institution, supported for essentially public
purposes. He (Mr. Hume) thought everyone must see that
the habit of resorting on the Sunday to suet/ places as the
British Museum would be a much better one for the poorer
classes of this country than their present habits of drunken-
ness and dissipation on that day. But, if the Hon. Baronet
would allow himself to learn anything from the example of
others, let him observe the conduct of the poorer classes of
France when in the Louvre, and he would then see even
common soldiers making observations on the treasures of art
exhibited there which showed how elevating an effect such
exhibitions had on their moral feelings. It was this species
of elevation which he (Mr. Hume) desired to see produced in
England.
Sir T. FREYIANTLE did not feel that he deserved to
be looked upon as a person who would not allow himself to
learn, and especially not from the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex, who certainly had the character of being the most
obstinate Member of that House, and of being very little
disposed to learn ; but, on the contrary, of being disposed to
maintain his opinions, in defiance of opposition.—(Hear,.
hear, and a laugh.) He thought, however, that there was
one science which certainly required to be learned by Hon.
Members opposite, and that was the mode of explaining those
precepts of the Bible which related to the observance of the
Sabbath.

Mr. HUME said that the explanation of the Bible was not
a subject for discussion in that House, but for other authorities
and other places, Nor was it a question whether on that head
the Hon. Baronet was stupid or he (Mr. flume) obstinate.—
(" Oh, oh !) Why, the Hon. Baronet might be stupid as
well as he ( Hr. Hume) obstinate.—(" Oh, oh !") He, how-
ever, had not intended in what he before said to make any re-
mark offensive to the Hon. Baronet.
After a few words from Sir 11. VERNEY and the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the vote was
agreed to.
On the next vote, which was of 31,0001. and upwards, for
the completion of the National Gallery,
Mr. E WART rose to protest against a portion (one-third)
of the National Gallery being given up to the Royal Academy.
This was essentially a private institution, and he did not see
why it should have favour shown to it in preference to many
similar institutions. The Hon. Member concluded by moving,
that it be a provision that the Royal Academy be excluded
from participation in the use of the National Gallery, and that
the money now voted be not applied to any private purpose of
the kind.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER objected
to the form of the motion, but he had a more special objection
to its subject. The great fact, which the Hon. Member seem-
ed to have overlooked, was, that the Royal Academy had al-
ready had rooms from the public in, Somerset House ; and
the only question really was, whether they should continue to
hold those apartments or be removed to the National Gallery ?
Now it was decidedly desirable for the public advantage that
Somerset House should be left free for the, public offices,
while, on the other hand, the gallery for the works of the an-
cient masters was a more fit place for the exhibition of the
works of modern artists. Under these circumstances he could
not see what advantage the Hon. Member proposed to gain.
Mr. JEPHSON agreed with the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.
Mr. R. COLBORNE could not hear the Royal Academy
depreciated as a really national institution without saying a few
words in its favour. That institution had struggled during
upwards of sixty years, and, unaided by anything but its own
efforts, had raised itself to an eminence which enabled it to be
highly useful to the interests of art in this country. Besides
paying its own expenses out of the proceeds derived from the
exhibition of the pictures, it had contributed materially to the
support of decayed artists, and had amassed a capital of
40,0001. wherewith to carry on its future operations. The
Government had done something for sculpture in this country,
but nothing for painting ; and he did think that an institu-
tion of this kind was, therefore, doubly entitled to praise for
what it had done.

Mr. HUME bad no objection to give the rooms, so long as
they were not required for tfie national pictures. When he
looked at the constitution of the Royal Academy, however,
and considered the monopoly they enjoyed, and the right of
conferring honours, he could not consider the eulogium of the
Hon. Member borne out by the facts.
Mr. WARBURTON hoped the Chanceller of the Exche-
quer would now repeat the assurance he gave last year, that
should the rooms in question be required for the,nationa\ pic-
tures, others should be provided for the Royal ACademy. He
was satisfied, that if it once more became known that there was
house-room, individuals would come forward with donations to
the gallery.
Mr. R. COLBORNE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Bridport in thinking that individuals would come forward.
The past gave great reason for such an expectation. Besides
81,0001 worth of pictures purchased through the munificence
of that House, upwards of 60,0001. worth of pictures had been
contributed by the munificence of individuals, Mr. H. Carr
had contributed to the value of 24,0001. Sir George Beau-
mont to that of 12,000/., and the British Institution to that of

10,000/., while among the names of the contributors were
those of Lord Farnborough, the late Earl of Liverpool, Mr.
Cholmondeley, the Earl of Blessington, Mr. Long, the Earl
of Lousdale—besides that of his Majesty, as the giver of six
pictures. •
After some further conversation the vote was agreed to.
The sum of. 4,5471. was granted for defraying the expenses
of temporary accommodation for the Houses of Lords and
Commons.
On the motion that a sum of 3,7551. be granted for com-
pleting the works at Windsor Castle,
Mr. HUME wished to know whether they were to under-
stand that this sum would be sufficient to complete the whole
of the works?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply,
said that this sum would be sufficient to complete the whole of
the new works in this magnificent building. There might,
however, be some occasion for other improvements, the ex-
pense of which could not now be ascertained. The stables
might require alteration, and putting the new rooms in a state
fit for habitation would of course occasion an expense which
they could not provide for at present.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the motion that a sum of 15,3001. ba granted for defray-
ing the expenses of restoring those portions of the Milbank.
Penitentiary which were destroyed by fire in October last,
Mr. HUM E said that.he had strong objections to this vote.
The Milbank Penitentiary had failed in the object for which it
was originally intended.
After a few observations from Mr. Gladstone, Lord J. Rus-
sell, Mr. Hawes, and Mr. Hume, the vote was agreed to.
On the motion that 7,0001. be granted to defray the expense
of the norks at Dartmoor,
Mr. HUME asked whether the Noble Lord deemed those
works necessary ?

Lord J. RUSSELL assured the Hon. Member that they
were necessary.
Mr. HAWES thought that, as imprisonment for debt was
likely soon to be abolished, they ought to pause before they
expended money in the erection of new prisons. The Hon.
Member alluded to the description which had been given by
the inspectors of prisons of the state of Newgate, end said
that the condition of that prison was not only disgraceful to
the magistracy of the city, but would justify an address to the
Crown for their removal from office.
Lord J. RUSSELL, from all he had heard, was by no
means sanguine in expecting the speedy abolition of imprison-
ment for debt. He was as desirous as any one to get rid of a
practice so injurious, but he feared it would not be practicable
at present. With respect to the last observation of the Hon.
Member for Lambeth, all he could say was, that if the report
which had been made to the Government on the subject were

correct, his opinion did not differ from that of the Hon. Mem-
ber. He understood, however, from the Lord Mayor, that
the Court of Aldermen had appointed a Committee to inquire
into the condition of Newgate, and, as that was the case, he
was bound to defer corning to any final conclusion until he had
seen the report of that Committee. He hoped the Hon.
Member for Lambeth would adopt the same course.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG protested against the use of such un-
measured terms as had been applied by the Hon. Member for
Lambeth to the magistracy of London; especially as none of
the Members for the City were present to defend the conduct
of the Aldermen.
After some further observations the vote was agreed to.
10,000/. were, after a brief conversation, granted for erect-
ing new chambers for the Judges.
The following sums were granted for making good the fee
fund deficiency in the several public departments :-42,300!.
for the Treasury ; 11,2701. for the Home Secretary's Office ;
14,000/. for the .office of the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs ; 12,2701. for the department of the Colonial Secre-
tary ; and 22,2851. for the department of the Privy Council.
The following votes were then agreed to :-
6,000/. to defray the contingent expenses and salaries of
the messengers connected with the department of the Privy
Council.
5,410/. for the contingencies and expenses of the messen-
gers of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
31,500/. for those of the department of the Secretary for
Foreign Affairs.
5,4001. for the messengers of the Secretary for the
Colonies.
4,150/. for the messengers of the Board of Trade.
14,615/. for salaries of the officers connected with the Comp-
trollership of the Exchequr.
2,0061. to defray the expenses of the University lecture-
ships.
On the vote of 15,600/. being proposed for the Milbank
Penitentiary,
The LORD MAYOR regretted that he had not been
the House at an earlier part of the evening, when the Hon.
Member for Lambeth had made some observations with respect
to the inspection of Newgate. Ile had not time to attend to
the Report which had been returned, and at the contents of
which he had been astonished, until last Saturday, when he
called together his brother magistrates on an inquiry as to the
evidence' upon which the Report had been founded, when they
ascertained that the inspectors had put but two questions,
which, with their replies, be eould state to the House. The
questions were put to Mr. Cope, the Governor of Newgate.
The first question was whether he ( Mr. Cope) visited the prison

once in twenty-four hours ? The answer was—" No ; but I
shall state to you the reasons why Ido not." He was imme-
diately met with the reply--,, You need not state any reasons;
you have answered the question, and that is sufficient." The
second question was, " Have you any record of the prisoners
examined for hours together under the title of A. 8., &c. ?"
The answer w:.3, " No, but I have a recollection of them."
Now, such was the evidence upon which this Report was re-
turned, and he would ask the House and the country to sus-
pend its judgment until an opportunity was afforded of meeting
the charges contained in it. He should also remind them that
Newgate was not like other prisons, and did not allow the
means of classification, being merely a gaol of transit, and
having, instead of two, twelve gaol deliveries every year.
Those sent in from Middlesex amounted to no more than 400
'or 500 annually, whilst those from Surrey amounted to 3,000.
Under these circumstances classification, as the Noble Lord
opposite (Lord J. Russell) could testify, could not be carried
into effect. On more occasions than one the Secretary of
State for the time being had been appealed to on the subject;
but it was thought more advisable to wait for the Report of
the inspectors of prisons. He would conclude by again ex-
pressing his regret that he was not in his place when the Hon.
Member for Lambeth brought the subject before the House.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that it was
very difficult, under the circumstances in which the prison of
Newgate was placed to introduce any effective system of clas-
sification.

Nir. WA KLEY objected to the sum of 9001. for wine,
brandy, sugar, beer, arrowroot, &c., for 600 criminals, whilst
the poor in a parish in Oxford had only 701. a year allowed to
their medical attendant, and in Stroud, which the Nnble
Lord the Secretary for the Home Department represented,
the Commissioners of the Poor Law only allowed 6d. per
annum for children under 16 years of age, and 2s. and 4s. for
adults, inclusive of medicine.
Mr. ESTCOURT said that the Board of Guardians fixed
the amount of salary for medical men in proportion to the po-
pulation, and the sum thus fixed produced a considerable sa-
lary. To say that 6d. allowance was all that was given for a
child was not a fair construction. The guardians of the poor
in Oxford were Mast humane men, and were ready to grant
any sum which might be necessary in cases of illness.
Mr. WA KLE Y repeated his statement, and denounced the
practice of making such a distinction between criminals and
paupers as disgraceful and scandalous.
Mr. GOULBURN said the Hon. Gentleman was under
an erroneous impression on this subject. The object of this
arrangement was to induce the poor people to ass►st in the
formation of Medical Clubs.

Afters few words from Mr. ESTCOURT, Mr. WAKLEY, and
Mr. GOULRURN,

Lord J. RUSSELL and Sir T. FREMANTLE said a
few word Sin defence of the present system of remunerating
medical men.

The vote was agreed to.
The following votes were likewise agreed to :-
29,800/. for the expenses of the Corporation Commissioners
for Ireland.

5,1001. for the expenses of digesting the statutes.
753/. for the Commissioners of County Rates.
30,000!. for the Commissioners of -Charities for England
and %Vales.

36,8001. for the Commissioners of Religious Instruction for
[rcland.

10,0001. for the Commissioners of Religious Instruction for
Scotland. _ _ _ _ _ _

49,1801. for the Poor Law Commissioners for England and
Wales.
--- _ _ _

14,7001. for the Commissioners to preveut illegal traffic in
slaves.

103,516!. for the expenses of Consuls.
5.500/. for Inspectors of Factories.
4,500/. for Inspectors of Prisons.
The House then resumed, the other. Orders of the Day
were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at Half-past
Twelve o'Clock.