The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-15 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND ORDERS OF THE DAY WHICH

STAND IN TIIE ORDER-ROOK FOR. THE PRESENT WEEK.
TUESDAY, FEB. 15, NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
1. Mr. Alderman Waithman—Resolutions relating to the Trade
and Manufactures of the Country.
2. Mr. Hobhouse—Bill to repeal the Laws relating to Appren-
tices in Cotton and other Factories, and in Cotton and
other Mills, and to make further provisions in lieu thereof.
3. Lord Viscount Althorp—To refer Papers and Accounts relat-
ing to Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace to a Select
Committee.
4. Lord Viscount Althorp—Game Laws.
5. Mr. Dominick Browne—Petition from the Western part of
Ireland, relating to the want of food in that district.
6. Mr. Trench—Bill to amend the Irish Election Acts.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
1. Wigan Election Petitions—Ballot for Committee at three.
2. Wexford Election Petition—Ballot for Committee at ten mi-
nutes after three.
3. Game Bill—Committee.
4. Arbitration Bill—Second reading.
5. Roman Catholic Charities Bill—Second reading.
WEDNESDAY, FEB. 15, ORDERS OF THE DAY.
1. Heritable Infeftments.(Scotland) Bill—Second reading.
2. Turnpike Roads (Scotland) Bill—Second reading.
3. Settlement of the Poor Bill—Third reading.
resaOpnplication of Corporate Funds
the Public Accounts.
THURSDAY, FEB. 17, NOTICES OF SIOTIONS.
to the purposes of Election of Members to serve in Par-
t?". SirM r .11ry Evans—BillPar ntoll

etlec,tedThba);
liamene.
etTalini°dCmands the attention ci this
theti cOoartrhuspitn
slt'aatreliao-f
S. Mr. Robert Grant—Removal of Civil Disabilities from the
Parlia-
ment now pending.
House.
Browne—Bill to
5. Mr. Dominick empower Catholic Bishops in
Ireland to accept Conveyances, in fee simple or by lease,
Jews, unless previously
to them and their successors, of lands not exceeding a
certain number of acres in each parish, for the building of
4. MarttesßoofroCuhgalintolofsT,l
Catholic Churches thereon, for Mensal purposes only.
ORDERS OF THE nay.
1. Carlow Election Petition—Ballot for t ommittee at three.
2. Truro Election Petitions—Ballot for Committee at five mi-
nutes after three.
3. Winche.isea Election Petition—Ballot for Committee at ten
minutes after three.
4. Land Tax Commi,,,ioners Names Bill—Committee.
5. Evesham Election Committee—Special Report to be considered.
6. Building Act Amendment Bill—Committee.
FRIDAY FEU. 18, ORDERS OF THE DAY.
1. House to be called over.
2. I.,anzies Regulatiin (Scotland) Bill—Second reading.
3. Tailzies Relief (Scotland) Bill—Second reading.
4. Tailzies Amendment (Scotland) Bill—Second reading.
5. Labouring Poor Bill—Second reading.
6. Liability of Landlords Bill—Second reading.
7. Colonial Trade Bill—Second reading.
NOTICE OF MOTION.
Mr. Williams Wynn—Army Estimates. (In Committee of
SuPPIY)

NAsU DEFORMITIES.—Among the many,
which at the West end are called improvements, we learn
another monstrous termination to a real improvement has
been, after considerable cavilling, adopted by the sage
issioners of the Woods and Forests. The opening
from Carlton-terrace into St. James's Park, instead of a
grand entrance for carriages and pedestrians, it is at length
decided shall be a broad imitation of the passage between
Devonshire and Lansdowne Houses, by three flights of
stone steps, in a regular gradation of descent, for the easy
reduction of the overgrown population of this vast metro-
polis. The model of the proposed improvements in the
ot
C n n
area of the late Royal stables, at Charing-cross, bar, at
length, reached the office of the Woods and Forests; and,
it is expected, will shortly be submitted to the inspection
of every architect and man of taste in the kingdom—
Ministers being determined that, in future, all public
works shall have the advantage of public competition of
talent and estimate.-- Sunday Times.

A GOOD SIMT.—On Monday last Mr.
Smarr, of Trengwainton, killed 26 brace of snipes in
41 hours.

APPALLING DISTRESS IN DUBLIN.--It is
our melancholy duty this day to state a fact which is of
the most heart-rending nature. From the inquiries which
have been made within the last few days into the state of
the poor in that district of Dublin known as Francis-street
parish, it has been found that out of a population of 25,000
persons, there are 6,000 in a state of absolute want. In
part of that district several human beings of blth sexes, of
the ages of 14 and 15 years, were found completely naked,
and huddled together in corners of the rooms, in the vain
endeavour to retaiu some heat in their bodies.—Dublin
Morning Register.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 14.

Petitions were presented by various Noble Lords, fcr
the repeal of the malt duties, the revision of the corn lawL,
Parliamentary Reform, and reduction of taxation.

Mr. BARING, and others from the Commons, brought
up a request from the flou•e of Commons, for permission
for the attendance of the Lord Chancellor before the Select
Committee on the salaries and emoluments of public offices.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, after reading the re-
quest, observed that he was anxious to inform their Lord.
ships of his wish to be allowed to attend the Committee.
It would greatly relieve his mind on the subject which he
should have to propound to their Lordships to-morrow
evening.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY,
leave was given to Lis Lordship to attend the Committee
to-morrow.

The Duke of NORFOLK presented a petition from
Sheffield, praying that House to grant a full and efficient
Reform of Parliament. The town of Sheffield had at the
present moment a population of more than 80,000 persons.
Its' trade and manufactures were eve!), day increasing, and
it certainly could not be contended, on any principles of
justice, or on any theory of the Constitution, that a town
of such importance should be without representatives,
while places containing scarcely twenty inbalaitioats returned
two Members to the House of Commons.

Several other petitions were presented to the same effect.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM obser►ed, that he had
heard, from common report, that it was the intention of
his Majesty's Ministers to put a duty on the transfer of
stock, and he should therefore take this opportunity of
giving notice, considering it a measure that was in direct
breach of the public faith, that when the Bill for
carrying this measure into effect was brought be-
fore the House, he should consider it his duty to
call the attention of their Lordships to it, in the hope of
inducing their Lordships to express an opinion upon a
measure which he considered was one of the most revolu-
tionary measures ever attempted to be brought into Parlia-
ment by any Ministers.
Esrd GREY said, that it was quite clear that the
Noble Lord had no need to give the notice be had done, as
no Bill, either upon this subject or any other, could be
brought before the House without being brought under the
discussion and notice of that House. Before he gave the Noble
Duke any answer to his question he begged to inform him
that he could not sit there and hear it stated by any.Nohle
Lord that measures which were brought forward by his
Majesty's Government were of a revolutionary character—
or a breach of faith. If he thought the measure deserved
the appellation given to it by the Noble Duke, be should
have been one of the last men to have consented to its pro-
posal for the consideration of Parliament. So far from
considering it of a revolutionary character he, at the
time of agreeing to its proposal to Parliament, believed it
to be the one best calculated to promote the gene-
ral interests of the country, and to give an activity
to the industry and perseverance of its manufacturers. His
Majesty's Ministers, knowing how necessary it was to re-
lieve the industrious classes of the community from some
of the taxes that pressed so heavy upon them, thought the
best course to adopt was to resort to this tax. In taking
off some of the taxes his Majesty's Ministers had been
anxious to impose others which would operate with
but little pressure on the public interest, and would not
affect the industry of the country.—On every principle
of justice and sound policy, therefore, he did conceive that
he was at liberty to make these alterations, and that there
was nothing either inequitable or unjust in attempting to
transfer a portion of the public burthens to a species of
property that had hitherto been free from all the difficul-
ties and misfortunes which necessarily attacked the manu-
facturing, the commercial, and the agricultural interests
of the country, and which had, on the contrary, greatly

increased in value and advantages throughout all the
changes which affected others.—(Hear, bear.)—lt ap-
peared to him, therefore, both fair, just, and equitable,
that the fundholders should begin to contribute something
to the relief of the burthens which pressed on their fellow-
subjects, and he could not agree that in doing so he was
guilty of any breach of faith to one class more than to the
other.—(Hear.)—ln what did the true interests of the
fundholder consist ? Why, in the prosperity of every other
class in the empire—(Hear)—and when he proposed the
reductions of taxation for which the duty imposed on
transfers was to have been one of the equivalents, lie could
not doubt that the fundholders would benefit by those re-
ductions i❑ a proportion commensurate with the whole of
the sum of which they were to be deprived.—(Hear.).—
It was said, however, by the Noble Duke and others, that
the tax on the fundholder would be a breach of faith. He
admitted there was an Act of Parliament which would
bear a construction in support of that assertion ; but there
were circumstances of some importance to be adduced
in a consideration of that question. He was not one of
those who meant to justify one breach of faith
to the public creditor by a preceding breach of
faith, but it was impossible not to see that this
tax was a species of propetty tax; and could they then
avoid looking back to the time when a large property-
tax was imposed on all the funded property, as well as
every other kind of property in the country..—(Hear.)—
The country had a right to call for an imposition of a tax
on the property of every class of the people, and it bad
not escaped his attention that there was at this ♦ery mo-
ment a general call for the imposition of a tax on pro-
perty.—( Hear. )—He, however, was one of those who had
a very great objection to the imposition of such a tax in
times of peace ; and he had therefore given his consent
the rather to the imposition of a duty on transfers, a]-
though many of those who now opposed it, and who com-
plained that it was a tax on property, would hare had
no objection to a direct tax being imposed on all descrip-
tions of landed and funded property.—(Hear. )—lt was
for the reason he had already stated, and because he
thought a direct tax on funded property would tend more
than anything else to drive capital out of the country that
he gave the plan his cordial concurrence, and entertained a
hope that it would be adopted. A strong impression had
however been produced against the principle of the mea-
sure elsewhere, and difficulties, not anticipated at the time
it was prepared, had been suggested as to the practicabi-
lity of carrying it into effectual execution. From the
nature of the transaction to which any discovery of the
intentions of the Government would give rise, it had been
found impossible to consult those who weir generally
well acquainted with the details of such a measure ;
but the Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had the authority of one of the first mercantile men
in the city—an authority, the force of which every
Noble Lord would at once recognise—as a sanction
it the practicability of the proposition.—(Hear, hear.)
Looking, however, at the difficulties which it is said
would attend the collection of such a tax, and he must ho-
nestly say, looking still more at the very general feeling of
dissent which had been expressed both in and out of doors,
his Noble Friend had, he understood, given notice of his
intention to withdraw it.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble
Friend near him asked who was the authority at whose
recommendation his Noble Friend (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) brought forward the plan, and he had no he-
sitation in saying that it was the Governor of the Bank of
England. Having said thus much, be could reply to the
Noble Duke, that there was to be no such tax imposed as
that to which the Noble Duke had with so much eagerness
expressed his hostility. He confessed, however, it did
grieve him to be deprived of the resource which he anti-
cipated from this tax, because it would he necessary for
the Government to abandon the contemplated reduction
of some of those taxes, which could not, in the present
state of the public finances, be justifiably given up. He
repeated he was sorry for this, because, if the financial
measures of his Noble Friend had been allowed to go
on, such relief would have been afforded to the commercial
and manufacturing interests ofthe country, and such an im-
provement might have taken place in the revenue, that Go-
vernment would probably have had the satisfaction to come
down next year with the proposition for the repeal of many
other taxes.—( Hear, hear,) The result would create much
disappointment, but the fault was not theirs. The Govern-
ment had exercised, and would continue to exercise, their
utmost endeavours for the relief of the burthens of the
people; but their resources were unfortunately limited,
weakened, and curtailed by the objections taken to that
tax which they had thought it just and equitable to pro-
pose. He could say no more than that be was at all times
ready to meet any attack which the Noble Duke might
think proper to make on the measures of the Government;
and although that Government had met with difficulties
in the accomplishment of an object which they considered
most desirable, they were determined to persevere as long

as Parliament was willing to give them its aupport.—.
(Hear, hear.) The transfer tax, he repeated, was with-
drawn, and the Noble Duke would have no opportunity
to make the opposition which he had threatened.—(Hear. )
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY expressed his re-
gret that any measure which was intended to impose on
landed and funded property its fair proportion of-taxation,
and that too at a time when every hour showed the con-
dition of the Government and the country to be becoming
more critical, should meat with opposition.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM congratulated the
House on the withdrawal of the tax to which he had
thought it necessary to allude, and begged to know if he
was to understand the Nohle Earl as saying that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had no I ther opinion than the in-
dividual one of the Governor of the Bank in favour of his
plan ? .

Earl GREY said, that he had not used the words " ap-

probation of the plan." His Noble Friend had consulted
the Governor of the Bank, and received an opinion from
him that there would be no difficulty in collecting a tax
on transfers ; but he did not say he expressed approbation
of that plan.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA was very far from show-
ing the feeling of congratulatio❑ expressed by the Noble
Duke ; on the contrary, he regretted rruch that time (hill-

culty of collecting such a tax had compel' d the Govern_
ment to withdraw it, as it was the general opinion of all
classes that the fundholder should be compelled to contri-
bute his share to the support ~f the state. It was said
that there was a breach of faith in taxing the fundholder.

He saw none, but he did see a breach of faith towards all
other classes, in taxing them for the exclusive benefit of
the fundhohh-r, and in compelling them to pty twen,y
shillings for every thirteen shillings they had borrowed.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not but think that a well-mo-
dified income tax would be mo.t beneficial to the Govern-

Meat, as well as most grateful to the country.
Lord FARNHAM said, it seemed to him extremely
inconsistent to contend that the holders of property in
money should not be compelled to contribute anything to-
wards their own protection. Ilis objection to the tax just
abindoned was, that it must he considered a tax on the
transfer of property, rather than on the property itself._
For his part, he shou'd he glad to hear of the proposal of

a direct tax on all property, funded as well as lauded, acid

. .
even on all mortgages, so that the produce would he of
such an amount as would enable the Government to re-

peal all the assessed taxes and the land tax. The time was
fast approaching when they might again he required to

make great exertions to preserve their country. All
Europe was arming ; and although the Government of
this country was, as perhaps it ought to do, resting on its

oars, yet it was plain that they could not go on without a
thorough alteratio❑ cif that system of taxation which had

to, long been carried on.

Lord ELLENUOROUGH took the opportunity to
observe, that the Noble and Learned Lord (Lord
Brougham) had b,en opposed to the property tax in the

other House of Parliam;nt, and he recollected well the
speeches he uttered en those occasions. Judging from
them, and from the opposition be offered to that tax in

time of peace, he anticipated an equally successful objec-
tion on the present occasion. He rose, however, to ask
the Noble Marquis opposite (Lord Lansdowne), in the

,bsence of his friend, the President of the Board of Trade
Lord Auckland), what was the return of the resolution

imposing new duties on foreign timber.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said be really could
not answer, as the resolutions were not yet drawn up.
Lord ELLENBOHOUGH took it to be a great prac-
tical error that they were not ; but surely the Noble Mar-
quis was able to state the substance of them, as the nature
of the alterations must be known to hint as one of the
Members of the Government.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE really could not venture
to anticipate the statement which would be made by his
Noble Friend in the other House on this subject ; but the
moment that statement was made, 1w should be most
happy to give the Noble Baron every information in his
power connected with the duties in question.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the Noble Baron
(Ellenborough), good butnouredly no doubt, but somewhat
sarcastically, had t iken an opportunity to allude to his
speeches delivered some time ago elsewhere, with a wish of
probably inducing him to resume them in that House,
and in the sime spirit; as the Noble Marquis had once
been Chancellor of the Exchequer, he seemed to wish bins
to assume the same character in the place of the Noble
Lord who held that office. It was quite true that he had
expressed himself during the debates in question an enemy
to a property tax in time of peace, and he repeated now
that he still continued to hold that most hateful impost as
wedded to the mother of all burthens, the parent of all
' evils, the promoter of all mischief and all misfortune—he
meant equally hateful war. lie, thei efore, now, as he had
always dune, declared himself adverse to this tax, unles4
in time of war, and repeated his opinion that a property, or
rather an income tax—for they were very different—must
be held impolitic, and opposed to all the ti tie principles
of finance. When the Noble Lord (Farnham) said
that a property tax might be imposed instead of other
direct taxes, he did not know that an equal property
tax might not be very properly made the subject of
consideration, if circumstances should arise to call for
it, but such circumstances did not appear to him
to exist at present. Circumstances, no doubt, might
arise, in which it might be mater of justice as well
as policy to raise the necessary taxes in a manner different
from that in which they were now raised. But he most
positively denied that the tax on the transfer of stock
would have been any breach of public faith towards the
fundholders, and it was not on that ground that it was
abandoned. It would have been no very great hardship
on the fundholders, as a body ; for out of the 600,000
fundholders, 580,000 were annuitants, who placed their
money in the funds with a view to allow it to remain there

as a source of annual income, and, therefore, very seldom
made any transfer; and, in point of fact, no alarm was
felt among the great body of the fundholders, and no
transfer had been made on account of any such feeling. It
had not been considered, that a tax on the transfer of
funded property was at all more olijectionable than a tax
on the transfer of landed property, and that was the
whole of the measure. And, indeed, the Noble Lord, a
kinsman of the Minister of 1793, could not, with any con-
sistency, object to the tax in question on the ground of
faith, unless he was prepared to admit that the conduct of
the Minister of 1798, who had imposed the income tax,
equally on funded and landed property, was guilty of a
breach of faith ; for there were words in a preceding Act
of Parliament equally strong against such a measure as the
words of the Act now alluded to. But in 1798; it was
agreed on all hands that the funds should not be exempted
from the income tax. It was, in his opinion to be lament-
ed, that the difficulty in the collection should have made it
necessary to withdraw this tax, which, he was assured,
would have been beneficial to the fundholders thetthelvrs,
who would have shared largely in the advantages which
manufactures and commerce would derive from being set
free from other taxes. It would have been highly desir-
able to have a tax on the transfer of funded as will as
landed property, so as to enable them to repeal taxes which
bore heavily on the freedom and energy of manufacturing
and commercial industry. Whether some other means
might not be found to make up the deficiency, he did not
know ; but there was great reason to believe that these
taxes must still be retained. But he repeated that the
ground of breach of faith was not the cause of the aban-
denmeut of the tax. But when the Noble Lord said
that a property tax might be imposed equally on funded
and landed property, he should pause on that in the pre-
sent circumstances of the country. The Noble Lord knew
that at the titne when a duty of 10 per cent. was imposed
on income, whether arising from funded or lan-led pro-
perty, the ocuntry was at war, anti there was no fear at
that time that those who had capital in our funds would
sell out and place it in the French funds, considering the
loss they would sustain in the rate of interest, and the
risk which they would run of losing their capital.—
But how did the case stand now ? Here they were
sitting in a place where there were many landholders
and few stockholders, and a disposition would natu-
rally exist to impose taxes on the funds in proportion
to those on land. But they would not now lay the
flattering unction to their souls that the property would
then remain in the funds of this country in the same
manner as during the war. They ought to consider that
there was now a free communication between England
and France, and that Paris was as near to London as
Yorkshire, and that the Three per Cents. there might be
purchased for 60 francs, while the English Three per
Cents. were at SU The stockholder was a man of no
country—here to-day and there to-morrow ; and if a
heavy duty should be imposed on the funds corresponding
to the duties on land, the consequence would be that the
capital would be taken away to another country. After
such a tax should have been imposed, there would be little
inducement to the fundholder to allow his property to re-
main here, when be might so easily transfer his capital to
the French funds, on which no such tax had been im-
posed, bat which remained in the same state as before.
There was a broad distinction, therefore, between the tines
and circumstances, arid that was a strong reason fur not
resorting to a measure now which had been found iu
1798 of such easy execution. But he had seen no ohjec-
tion in that view to the imposing a Lis on the !Islet- of
funded property. Now, however, it was to betowiht
and he feared that the two taxes which '
repealed in consideration of this Las Lun:stsrteill be kept up)

and that the relief which they were calculated to afford to
commercial industry could not be given. He had his full
share in whatever blame might be supposed to attach to
Dlinisters for not having thoroughly ascertained whether this
tax could be properly collected or not, before they brought it
forward ; the impracticability of collecting it being the only
ground for abandoning it. But it did not appear, when per-
sons well acquainted with the subject were consulted, that
so many people were to be converted into trustees for the
public as there would be by this measure, and that one or
two or three additional Coup is of Chancery would be ne-
cessary to decide the questions that might arise. 'When he
said that he did not see further into this millstone than his
colleagues, he had to state, by way of accounting for it,
that he had felt that he was not sufficiently informed on
the subject ; but if lie had put questions on the point or
the practicability of collecting such a tax to conveyancers
and practical teen, it would he immediately known to the
public that Ministers intended to lay a duty on the transfer
of stock. He could not, therefore, communicate with the
proper persons who could have given him the requisite in-
formaton until the tax was actually proposed by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequk r. Then, only, it was found, that
the machinery for collecting the tax would not work well;
and no sooner was the difficulty discovered, than it was
reckoned advisable to abandon the duty. That necessity
lie lamented, for the reason which he had already stated.
The taxes to be repealed in contemplation of this duty he
was apprehensive must now be retained. But still he
trusted that, in case peace should continue, at no distant
period
i the true sources of the remission of taxation would
he increased, and that, besides the great relief granted by
this budget, other reductions might be made, so as still
farther to relieve the labouring classes. The relief granted
by the repeal of the duties on sea-borne coals, on candles,
and advertisements, could not fail, however, to be attended
with great and immediate advantage, and he hoped that the
repeal of these would be followed by the repeal of various
other taxes in succession in which the labouring classes were
deeply concerned, and that the relief would still continue
increasing.
OMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.
Lord STRANGFORD rose to give notice, that on
Friday neat he would submit a motion calculated to bring
under the view of the House the present state of our com-
mercial relations with Portugal. He wished to add, that
his motion was confined to the point of the present state of
our commercial relations with Portugal, without at all
touching on the vexata questio as to the right to the Por-
tegueseCrown. He intended to move for a paper—he
could not say particularly what kind of a paper—a paper,
of which the production would have the effect of setting
the public mind at rest on some important points, namely,
whether the treaties of commerce between this country and
Portugal were now in existence ? Secondly, whether, if
still in existence, they were suspended for a time—and if
suspended, whether the suspension was effected in a mode
jointed out by the treaties themselves? lie moved, " That
the House be summoned for Friday," which was ordered
accordingly.
Earl DARNLEY presented a petition from the Roman
Catholics of Navan, in Meath, praying that the Catholic
chapel in that parish might be enlarged and repaired by a
general rate on the whole parish.—Laid on the table.
The Earl of CARNARVON presented petitions from
Cowes and Swansea, praying for the repeal of the duty on
sea-borne coal.—Laid on the table.
TITHES.
Lord KING rose to submit the motion of which he had
given notice, for returns of the resident and non-resident
clergy, with an account distinguishing between the living
of non-re-idents in lay, and those in ecclesiastical patron-
age. Returns of such a kind had often been made to the
Privy Council, and sometimes to Parliament. His motion
was for an abstract of the last returns made on this sub-
ject to the Privy Council. A Right Rev. Prelate had, on
a fornier occasion, said that the great cause of non-resi-
dence was owing to the lay impropriators of tithes having
the patronage of livings, because the incomes they allowed
to the clergyman who did the duty was so small that be
could not reside. That might he so if the non-residence
had been confined to livings of small income. But the
great cause was pluralities; and he should say, that if there
was a sincere desire to put an end to non-residence, the
best plan would be to prevent livings above a certain value
from being held in plurality. In a certain book to which
he had been referred, he bad found it stated, that on an
overage the church livings were only 3651. Bs. 4d. each.
But there were 6,000 livings whose average income was
645/. His main object, however, was to show that non-
residence was not confined to the livings in the patronage
of lay impropriators of tithes, but extended to those in
ecclesiastical patronage. He found it stated in a provincial
publication of the 12th of the present month of February,
that the rich living of Wisbeach, estimated to be worth
5,4231., had been given to a near relation of the Bishop
of Ely—a Mr. Farriday—and it was stated that this Rev.
Gieitleman was in possession of several other ecclesiastical
preferments. It was also stated that the Rev. Gentle-
man was to resign a living in favour of a second son of the
Bishop of Ely ; but he did not see how this could be
done without the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor.—
LLORD CIIANCELLOR—Farriday had not been appointed to
the living of Wisbeach.]—The appointment had not then
taken place. The Rev. Gentleman, however, had five
other appointments.—(No, no.)—lt had been stated that
lie hail. There bad been considerable difficulties in pre-
venting pluralities ; but it would appear that the incomes
allowed to the officiating clergyman were as low in eccle-
siastical livings as those where the patronage was in the
hands of the lay impropriators. There was an ecclesias-
tical living in Yorkshire, where the allowance to the offi-
ciating clergyman was only thirty pounds a-year ; and
tl.ere was another in Oxfordshire where the allowance was
only SOL a-year, although that was made up by subscrip-
tions among the parishioners to '7O/. a-year. These were
cases in which the property still remained in the church.
It still remained in the ecclesiastical corporations, and had
not been ab-tracted from the church in the manner so
much complained of by the Right Rev. Prelate. So that
where the property still remained in the church, the in-
comes of the officiating ministers were sometimes worse
than in livings where the property and patronage were in
the hands of others. But as to the abstraction of property
from the church—the right of the church to all the property
which had ever belonged to the church had been put by
the Right Rev. Prelate the other night on much higher
ground than he had ever heard it placed before
by any of the most highflying of the high church party.
Even Bishop llorsley, who, it would be admitted, was a
great stickler for the hierarchy and the property of the
church, had not placed the claim on such high grounds,
as he saw from looking at a charge of that Right Rev.
Prelate to his clergy. Bishop Horsley's views were mo-
derate n i reasonable, compared with those of the Right
Rev. Pre'ate who spoke on the subject the other night.
He concluded by moving for an abstract from the last re-
turns made to the Privy Council of resident and non-t
dent clergymen, with an account distinguishing those liv-
ings which were in the gift of lay impropriators, and those
which were in the gift of ecclesiastical corporations.
The Bishop of LONDON did not mean to oppose the
motion of the Noble Baron. When he spoke of lay im •
nropriations as being a great cause of non -residence, lie
'did not mean the remotest allusion to the present lay irn-
proprietors. He spoke only of the original lay impropri-
ation—the effect of which had been to make the income of
many livings so small that it formed a great obstacle to re-
sidence. There was another point on which he wished to
say a few words. It had been said that the average in-
come of livings was from 350/. to 3601. or 3651. a year.
He had investigates! the subject minutely since he bad ad-
verted to it on a former occasion : and the Noble Baron
himself would probably be surprised at the result ; for,
after all that had been said about the enormous property
of the church, he had found that, taking every thing into
accosnt, the value of the livings, on an average, did not
amount to more than 185/. a year. He had taken as the
basis of his calculation the returns of 1811—a period of
great agricultural prosperity. Besides the tithes, lie had
taken into account the value of the glebe lands, of Queen
Anne's bounty, and the incomes of Bishops, and other ec-
clesiastical corporations, and the incomes of livings did not
amount, in the whole, to 2001. on an average.
The Earl of ROSLYN suggested that the motion
ought to be for an Address to his Majesty, to order the
returns to be laid on their Lordships' table. And after all,
he did not know how the returns from the Privy Council
could be made, with the distinction required between
livings in lay and livings in ecclesiastical patronage. 'The
returns to the Privy Council contained no such distinc-
tions.

Lord KING—IC would be easy to send the order to the
secretaries of the Bishops and to the Deans and Chapters
who could, without difficulty, make out the account of such
livings as were in lay, and such ',s were in ecclesiastical
patrol:age. As to what the Itiglit R Prelate had said
as to his statement, he had not had Lis information from
the black book to which the Right Rev
trielate alluded,
Church no
but from a hook called " the Revenues 'of
burden on the public —a b ,ok which was favourable ahle to
the Church Establishment rather than otherwise.vn:
should feel great p Liu if the average income o i • He
were so low as 185/. each, as the Right Rev. Rev. Yee_
late had stated ; and he hoped that the Right Rev. Ir-e-
-late had fallen into some mistake in his calculation. -
Earl GREY should have no objection to such returns
being laid on their Lordship' table ; but he requested hi,
Noble Friend to consider whether it would not be better
to withdraw his motion for the present. lie was fully

persuaded that there existed among the heads of the Church
a most sincere desire to remedy the abuses in the establish-
ment. The subject, as his Noble Friend knew, was under
the consideration of the heads of the Church, and he had
some communication on the subject with a Noble Prelate,
who was most anxious to remedy abuses, and whose views
were very moderate and liberal. He himself, he confessed,
would have preferred a general commutations of tithes, if
that could be accomplished ; but he was aware of the se-
rious difficulties which at present stood in the way of
that commutation. In the mean time, a measure some-
thing short of this which was now under consideration
a measure for a composition for tithes—would be attended
with a great deal of good, and might prepare the way for
a commutation afterwards. He had seen the Noble Pre-
late's Bill for a composition of tithes, and be approved of
its principle ; and he believed that it would do a great deal
of immediate good, and that it would at last lead to a
commutation, which would be attended with no less advan-
tage to the church than to the public. Besides the subject
of tithes and pluralities, there was a third point to which
the Noble Prelate had directed his attention, and that was
the holding of livings in commend= by some of the Bi-
shops. The holding of livings in commendam by Bishops
was, in his opinion, to be lamented ; but it had been ab-
solutely necessary, from the smallness of the incomes of
some of the beads of the church, who, without some such
expedient, could not maintain the dignity of their situa-
tions. On that point, too, some measure was in contern-
plirion, and it was intended to annex the revenues of sonic
ecclesiastical preferments not connected with the cure of
souls, permanently to the emoluments of sonic of the
heads of the church, so as to render the holding of livings
in comnzendam by the Bishops unnecessary. He would
recommend to his Noble Friend, in the mean time, to ab-
stain from raising discussions from night to night, inci-
dentally, on detached parts of the subject, when it was
utterly impossible that the whole subject in connection
could be sufficiently canvassed.
Lord FARNHAM would throw out a suggestion which
he thought well worth attending to. Let the lay impro-
priatora of tithes immediately consent to a commutation.
It would then be seen how the system would work, and if
it worked well, it might be applied in the case of tithes
held by the church; and thus the community might get
rid of tithes altogether.
Lard KING—He had been before assailed from almost
all sides, and now his Noble Friend at the head of the Ail-
ministration opened his battery upon him. He had been
attacked by the Noble Duke (Buckingham) opposite, with
his High Church and Tory principles, and the Noble Duke
had fired his monstrous bomb at his head without mercy.
Then a Noble Earl (Winchilsea) on the Cross-bench, had
charged his 18-pounder up to the very muzzle, and fired it
at him ; but it exploded like a pop-gun. Another Noble
Lord had assailed him on the ground of his religion, and
there was such a noise among all his assailants, that he
would have been frightened if he had not known his cause
to be so good, that with its aid he was able to fight them
all. However, he was now disposed to defer to the recom-
mendation of his Noble Friend. One of his reasons for
persevering in the course which he had taken, was that he
could never understand what the nature of the Bill was
which the very Rev. Prelate intended to propose. He
now understood that it was a Bill not for a commutation,
but only for a composition. He might go on, night after
night, pointing out the mischiefs of tithes to the interests
of agriculture, and all the interests of the community, for
the subject was a most fertile one. He might show what
great advantages France and Scotland had derived from
the abolition of the tithe system. The latter, a country
inferior in climate, but far superior in cultivation. But
it appeared to he expected that this measure for a
composition would lead to a commutation, and he would
take the advice of his Noble Friend, and abstain from agi-
tating the subject—for a time.—(A laugh )—The Noble
and Learned Lord (Wynford) had also fallen foul of him
because he had exposed and endeavoured to undo Sir Wm.
Scott's job.—[Lord WYNFORD-.—that is a very objec-
tionable mode of speaking of Lord Stowell's Bill.]—Why,
really the Noble Lord appeared to be much more touchy
on the subject than Lord Stowell himself would be. The
Bill was one which had really answered the end which
Lord Stowell and the clergy had in view. Sir William
Scott was himself an emanation from the clergy, and had
fought their battles, as he was bound as their advocate
to do.

His Lordship, we understood withdrew his motion,
agreeably to the recommendation of Earl Grey, for the
purpose of ascertaining whether it might not be put in a
shape better calculated to attain the object in view.
Adjourned at Half-past Seven o'clock.