The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-05 00:00:00

After a few observations from Lord
Wharne)iffe, and the Duke of Bueeleu

Montengle, Lord
[Oh, th,. convrrsa-

linpp,:d, and the

Lord,BROUGHAM then presented a petition, pray-
ing for en extension of the powers of the County Courts.
The Noble Lord then presented a petition from the As-
sociated Carpenters of Finsbury, stating that they were
in distress, and praying for the establishment of home
colonies, and for an advance of a loan from the Treasury
to Support the formation of such colonies, whieh they
looked upon as tue most effective means of relieving
their present distress. The Noble and Learned Lord
said, that while he sympathised with the petitioners on
account of their distresses, he yet could not support the
prayer of their petition, as he did not think home colo-
nies would produce the effect intended, nor did he think
that the Treasury had money to spare for the purposes
proposed by tLe petitioners.
The Apprehension of Deserters Bill then passed
through Committee.
Lord PORTMAN moved the second reading of the
Landlord and Tenants Bill, which came up from the
House of Commons, and where the provisions of the
Bill were fully explained.
After a few words from the Bishop of ST. ASAPH,
Lord BEAUMONT objected to the Bill, which he
believed to be an unwise measure. He begged to move
that it be read a second time that day six months.
Lord CAMPBELL supported the principle of the Bill,
but thought it might be amended in Committee.
After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW, their
Lordships divided, when there appeared—

Contents ... 9
Non-contents . . 5
Majority for the second reading... —4
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 4.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
Mr. SADLEIR had the misfortune to take a very dif-
ferent view of .he measure before the House from that
of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who had
preceded him. To the principle of the Incumbered
Estates Act of last session, as reflected in its preamble,
he had given an unqualified support, though he objected
to some of its details. His Hon. and Learned Friend took a
very narrow view of the Bill before the House. He seemed
to think in passing this Bill the House would be destroying
a vast deal of the property in Ireland; but if his Hon.
and Learned Friend had known what were the practices
of the Master's office in Ireland, he would not have
spoken as he had done in respect of its being supers: ded.
So far as the appointment of the Commissioners was
concerned, he cared not what these gentlemen might be,
provided they were active, intelligent, business men,
who would efficiently do their duty, and, whether they
did so on the principles of the Court of Chancery or no,
should they do it expeditiously, he was alike careless.
Were they to do their duty, he was, however, certain
the measure would be the means of rescuing a large
amount of the property in Ireland from the useless state
in which it now lay; as at present, the character and
conditions of sale propounded by the Court of Chancery
were the means of scaring away purchasers from those
incumbered properties, and therefore they continued
useless. He therefore supported the third reading of the
Bill, because it took up bolder ground than the Bill of
last session. But he would at the some time call atten-
tion to some defects in it. One of these was as re-
garded life-renters, and to take it out of their power to
put the Act in operation, as it was impossible t? bring
within the compass of this Act estates so situated.
Why should not the tenant for life be empowered
to take the initiative, and sell the inheritance
for the benefit of the life-renters; and why, also, should
the creditor of the tenant for life be shut out from par-
ticipating in the proceeds? If that were done they
would be really facilitating the sale of incumbered es-
tates in Ireland. He also thought that the powers of the
Commissioners were too limited. They had not the
power of compelling the attendance of witnesses, or the
production of deeds, except by a most circuitous route.
It would likewise produce a most salutary and beneficial
effect in Ireland were the Commissioners empowered
immediately to expose for sale those estates which were
hung up in the Courts of Chancery and Equity in Ire-
land.—(Hear.) The most serious objection he had to
that measure was in consequence of the professional ab-
sentee proprietors of Ireland; and he regretted the Bill
was not so framed as to afford them an advantageous
mode of disposing of their incumbered property. It was
thought by many that it mattered not to the tenantry
whether their landlords received their rents on the banks
of the Thames or the Tagus; but he very widely differed
from them, because ho believed that nothing tended
more to the peaceful, social, and religious habits of the
people than the presence and attention of their land-
lords, He, therefore, hoped that Government would
use their powerful influence -to induce those absentees
to part with some of their property by some clauses
in the Bill, which would mainly tend to the advancement
of the people of Ireland. He would allude to the words
of the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, in reply to
Sir J. Newport, in 1816, when he (Sir R. Pee]) was
then Secretary for Ireland, and the representative of an
Irish constituency, and had therefore the means and
power of judging what would be beneficial to that
country. "If I were to say from what measure good
would accrue to Ireland, I would say that the compulsion
of the landlords to reside there would be better than
any proposition that could come from any other party;
for he believed that the presence of the landlords would

do more good for the preservation of the peace and laws
of that country than any other system." Again, this
opinion is corroborated by that of Chief Justice Black-
burne, r. hen examined before a Committee of the House
of Lords, which was to the following effect, that much
injury arose to the tcnantry of Ireland in consequence of

the absence of the proprieto-rs.—(Hear.) The number of
absentee landlords was rapidly increasing, for if any of
them wished to evade the poor-law tax he had only to go
to France, spend the proceeds of his property there, and
thus escape all social and political responsibility. The en-
tire acreage of the county of Kerry amounts to 100,983
acres; of this 92,983 acres belong to four absentees, and
half of the remaining 8,000 acres also belong to persons
not resident in that country for many years. lie, there-
fore, considered that the Government would bring for-
ward some measure this• session, for it would be impos-
sible, under the two judgment acts to which ho before ad-
verted, to dispose of incumbered estates in Ireland, and
if not, capitalists will never be found to purchase those
estates. He then said he would support the Bill.
Mr. HENLEY said that from the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Sadleir), he expected that he would
move that the Bill be re-committed, but instead of that
he (Mr. Sadleir) said that he would support the third
reading of it, though all his remarks were strongly op-
posed to it. He (Mr. Sadleir) also stated that the pre-
sent measure would be as inoperative as the Bill of last

session was; thus after cutting it up in every possible
manner, he informed the House he would support it.
He had three reasons for opposing the third reading.
Ono was, that there was much of the incumbered pro-
perty that should be set loose for the benefit of Ireland,

wThic-h was not at to be effected by this Bill, for there
was much property in that country that was without
marketable titles and prices. Another objection was,
that the Commissioners whose appointment this Bill pro-
vides for, are not to act openly and publicly, and, of
course, might be subjects, through ex-parte statements
and one-sided testimony, to prejudices against those
whose interests are most involved; he therefore feared

that the Commissioners might, by a jealous and annoyed
people, become suspected of jobbing. Again, he did
not see that any national object would be gained by
taking the distribution of the funds from the proper
tribunals of the country, and placing it in the hands of
Commissioners, from whose decision and functions
there could be no appeal. He should, therefore, op-
pose it, because he did not think it would 'secure its
object.

Mr. SADLEIR briefly explained that he did not sup-
port the present Bill to strengthen the Bill of last s(s-
siou, for the latter he believed to be inoperative.
Tie SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that he should
only refer to the leading points of the Bill. He cer-
tainly believed that the details alluded to by the Hon.
Member (Mr. Sadleir) should have been debated on in
Committee, and not on the third reading of the Bill, and
that if it were his (Mr. Sadleieb) opinion that the mea-
sure did not go far enough, that he would have the op-
portunity next session, when the Bill would be tested, in
case of a failure, to. bring in his measure. He also con-
sidered, though contrary to the opinion of the Hen.
Member opposite (Mr. Henley), that it was confined to

ineumberelf estates, and shouldsay to him and to the
Honourable and Learned Member for the University
of Dublin (Mr. Napier) with respect to the non-iu-
terlerence of the law courts, that the Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland expressed his full satisfaction with
the present measure, and that it did not at all
reflect incompetency on either the Court of Chancery
or the Court of Exchequer, for there were many
matters Connected with incumbered estates that the
Court of Chancery could not easily disentangle to the
satisfaction of all perties. He thought it much better
to appoint three persons who understood tho subject,
and who would lay down their reasons without that
species of legal technicalities that always incumber the
sale of land.—(Hear, hear.) He always thought that
those difficulties that had been alluded to would not be
found in the working of the present measure, for there
are only two classes, the disputed and the undisputed
class; and, should any doubt at any time arise to those
three persons, they could have access to the opinions of
any of the courts they might wish to consult for the
more prompt and ready administration of their duties.
Be also believed that the Bill would facilitate the means
of procuring purchasers, and that nothing would be
wanted to secure its success. The propositions con-
tained in the Bill had met with very genertti approba-
tion, and there was no quarter front which any sugges-
tion bad emanated to the effect that, when carried into
practice, it would not prove productive of benefit. The
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by ac-
knowledging the assistance he had derived from an
esteemed friend of his, Mr. Colsan, in his effort to re-
vive and regenerate the rights of property in Ireland.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the third reading ll7
Against it l2
Majority for the Bill
Tho Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The question having been put that the House should
resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
Sir H. W. BARRON asked the Noble Lord at the
head of the Goverment whether ho meant to move, on
Friday next, the Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland)
Bill ?

Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative.
SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES..
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
The following votes were agreed to:-
110,117/. fur superannuation allowances and cempen-
sation to persons who had been employed in the public
service.

4,100/. for the relief of American loyalists and other
charges,