The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-10 00:00:00

REFORM.

Mr. PHILLPOTTS presented a petition from the city
of Gloucester, in favour of the measure of Reform proposed
by Lis Majesty's Government. The Hon. Member stated
that all party spirit in that city appeared to be sunk, and
all persons pined in common cause in expressing their
gratitude to Ministers, and their determination to do all in
their power to support the measure. The corporation
were also to a man unanimous in favour of the plan.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES presented a petition from
the females of Ryde, in the Isle of Wight, praying for the
abolition of Colonial Slavery.
On the motion that it be printed, a discussion arose as
to the unnecessary expence it threw upon the country by
printing so great a number of petitions on the same Ruh-
ject. In which discussion Mr. Spring Rice, Sir John
Newport, Mr. Duncombe, Mr. Hart Davis, Mr. Evans,
and Mr. Nicholson Calvert took part.
'Mr. HUGHES HUGHES said this was the first time
any objection to the printing a petition from females was
ever made, he should therefore certainly press his motion
to a div7sion.

The SPEAKER said there certainly was no rule made
by the House respecting printing petitions, but it was
understood, to prevent expense, Hon, Members would not
pre.* for the printing of many on the same subject.
Mr. S. RICE would not press his objection, but hoped
that those who voted for the printing would not, when
the estimates were brought forward, object to their mag-
nitude. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appearrd—
For printing the petition
Against it
Majority —3l
Petitions were presented from Hythe and Folkestone,
praing for Parliamentary Reform.

- Mr. HUNT presented a petitiOn from Stockport, pray-
ing for annual Parliaments, universal suffrage, and vote by
ballot. It was right he should inform the House that
this petition was agreed to before the plan of Ministers
was known, for since then the petitioners had agreed to
another petition, in which they expressed their unani-
mous approval of the plan proposed.—(Hear.) The parish
of Christ-church last week voted a petition in favour
of Radical Reform. They had, however, had another
meeting, at which they agreed to abandon their
former petition, and expressed their delight and ap.
probation of the plan proposed by Ministers.—(Hear.)
He (Mr. Hunt) had within the la%t few days had a great
deal of conversation with the citiaens of London, and even
moderate men were bold enough to assert that, if the
measure were not carried, they were ready to take up arms
and assist his Majesty's Ministers forward in it.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUNT also presented a petition from Lambeth,
which stated the petitioners' most sincere thanks to Mi-
nisters, and their concurrence in the plan propose:l.
The petitioners stated that they trusted afterwards to the
magnanimity of the House to give the protection of the
vote by ballot.—(Hear.)
The HoN. Mxuriza then presented another petition
'ron' Stockport, stating that the petitioners were ready to
assist Ministers in their glorious struggle, for the purpose
of overthrowing the boreughmongers.
Mr. BEN ET T presented a petition from Caine,
signed by the corporation and all the respectable inhabi-
tants, who expressed their admiration of the plan of Re-
form, and that they had no doubt it would prevent
anarchy and confusion in the country.
The HON. MEsinza presented a similar petition from
the householders of Devices. He cordially agreed in the
prayer of the petition. . _ .

Lord G. LENNOX presented a ptition from Chi-
cheater, which expressed the greatest satisfaction that his
Majesty's Ministers had so nobly redeemed the pledge
they had given the country.
Mr. Keatr and Mr. J. SMITH bore testimony to the
respectability of the petitioners.
Mr. ADEANE presented a petition from Cambridge
in support of the measure of Reform.
CaptainHOUVERIE presented a similar one from Salis-
bury. He could bear witness to the satisfaction which
the plan proposed by Ministers had universally diffused
throughout that city. Even the Corporation approved of it.
Colonel TRENCH hoped that the House would not be
bullied into any fanciful measure of Reform—(Hear)
—but that they would decide that question by justice and
common sense. The lion. Member then alluded to the
speech of Colonel Jones, at the Crown and Anchor, and also
to a speech made by Mr. Hill, an attorney at Salisbury,
which he described as calculated to promote revolution.
Mr. LITTLETON protested against those who opposed
the measure, using the terns "revolution." He knew that
the great county he represented, from one end to the other,
was unanimous in its approbation of the plan proposed
kr Ministers.
Sir G. CLERK thought after the speeches of the First
Lord of the Admiralty last night, and of the Lord Advo-
cate on a former day, that no one could look on the pro-
posed measure as one to amend and reform the repre-
sentation of the people, but that it went to alter
all the institutions of the country. He was not afraid the
middling classes had any desire for a revolution, but he
did look on the plan as fraught with danger.
Mr. KENNEDY said that the measure proposed by his
Majesty's Government hail given the most general and
universal satisfaction to the people of this country. There
might he a few persons found who would object
to it, but if they came forward with an attempt
to oppose it they would find themselves prodigiously
overwhelmed.—(Hear, hear.)—According to the infor-
mation of the Hon. Member, those who desired the greatest
Reform were satisfied with this measure—so much for
the good sense, proper feeling, and wisdom of the people.
--(Long and continued cheering. )—He rejoiced that
this debate had been prolonged to the period it
had—he rejoiced to have heard the opinions expressed
in favour of it that bad been stated, and he was sure that
those opinions would be re-echoed from one end of the
kingdom to the other. He was confident that when
the resistance to the measure that bad been of-
fered to it in that House was made known to
tke whole country, the only effect it would have
would be to cause the people to come forth with such an
expression of their feelings on the subject as would en-
sure to hilt Majesty's Ministers ultimate and perfect sue-
ease in this most wise, most just, and most politic mea-
sure, which they had so laudably brought forward.
Mr. LITTLETON, in explanation, said that in the
very Mat conversation he bad with Mr. Huskisson about
Itefortn, he expressed to him his conviction that the time
was come when a complete Reform, at least in Scotland,
was necessary.—(Cheers.) No man ever had a greater
respect for the sagacity of that deceased gentleman than
himself; and though during a long period of his life he
bad been an opponent of general measures of Reform,
yet notwithstanding, he (Mr. Littleton) was forced to
look at his views in connection with the circumstances in
which that lamented gentleman lived.—(Hear, hear.
hear.) He was not the helmsman that would have
allowed the vessel of the State to have been struck by a
sea, and thrown upon a rocky coast, when he saw the tide
of things required Into to carry her off; and the Hon.
Gentleman could not but suppose that, if the lamented gen-
tleman had been now living, v,, would have been an advocate
for the pres oat measure. This was the firm conviction
of the Hon. Gentleman, but at tl,e same time he disap-
proved of the practice of bringing
forward the opinions
of a person not now hying, for the PurPese of having it
conjectured on which side that individual would have voted
had he been alive.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL could only judge of
what the late Mr. Huskisson would have done on
the present occasion, had lie been alive, from
what he had heard bin from time to time state in that
House, and flora what he was reputed to have said; and
in his opinion ❑nless Mr. Huskisson had thought proper
to capsize himself, and every political view he had ever
entertained or expressed, he must have opposed the measure.
So also stood the case with respect to the late Mr. Canning,
because unless that gentleman had acted directly in

opposition to every thing which he had said oh the sub-
ject of Reform, he never could have approved of bringing
forward the present Bill. The very last time Mr. Gin-
ning spoke in that House on the subject of .Par-
liamentary Reform, he stated that he never would
a ree to a general measure of Beforth. Therefore
unless both he and Mr. fluslcisson were there, and were
prepared to eat up every syllable they had ever said on the
subject of Plenrm, nothing could induce him to suppose
but that they would have stood opposed to this jacobi-
nical Reform Bill.—(Roars of laughter.)
Sir G. CLERK said that when the subject of repre-
senting Scotland came regularly before_ t=ae House, he
should be ready to state wilth he knew and thought
upon it. Though the Honourable Gentleman opposite
had said Mr. Ifuskisson was not the lielmsman
that would have allowed the ship to Lave been
struck improperly by a destructive sea, yet he was per-
fectly confident that that gentleman, had he been alive, and
steering at this time, would not have approved of the con-
duct of the officers, or have assisted the unfortunate crew
opposite to have taken a course calcufeed to swamp and
destroy the vessel of State Altogether.—(Cheers and
laughter.)
Mr. Altiernian WAITHMAN spoke in suppm tof the
The Order of the Day was theme-?.
•

Mr. PERCEVAL rest offer to the Bill brought
forward by ie Majesty's Ministers for Parliamen-
tary Refeean, the most determined opposition which
wee in his power. If the debate had been deferred for
many nights subsequent to that, and had he been en-
abled to catch the Speaker's eye, he would have persevered,
and would not hive allowed the Bill to be brought into the
House without expressing his honest, determined, hut
constitutional opposition to it. He rose with the
firmest, the vtost undoubted, and unwavering con-
fidence, that the moment that this Bill was
passed into i. law, the death-blow of the Monarchy of
this `erantry was struck.—(Loud cries of hear, hear,
and laughter.) He had not the shadow of wavering on
the subject ; that was his honest end firm conviction ; and
therefore all his power would be unceasingly employed in
order to defeat the measure, and to check the progress
of the Rill. Every Hon. Member in that House, knowing
the purpose of the Bill, and knowing its tendency, was
called upon for the sake of the country, for the sake
of disabusing the public mind itreelf, to do all in his
power to counteract this mad and pernicious measure.
He was fully aware that he rose to address the House
tinder pesculiar disadvantages. He had no doubt Hon.
limbers would believe the truth and honesty of his con-
viction, but still he was aware that he would he looked
upon as the son of a Tory Minister, himself the holder
of a sinecure place, anti sitting for a close borough,
but notwithstanding this prejudice he assured every Hon.
Member that his opposition to this measure, however
decided and unequivocal, was founded upon the fullest '
conviction which he entertained of the unconstitutionalness
sod impelicy of this detestable and frightful measure of his
Majesty's Ministers. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Dundee had taken upon himself pretty roundly to
assert, that those Members whose seats in that House were
likely to be affected by this measure were in a state
which almost incapacitated them for speaking or voting on
the measure. These sentiments were worthless and impotent
in that House. No man was fool enough to listen to
them, but he would recommend that Hon. and Learned
Member to be more cautious of his language upon such I
a subject. He gave the lie direct to such assertions. They
were great unconstitutional falsehoods—(Hear, hear)--
and he dared all the authority, the Honourable Member
believed it was not much himself, but he dared all the au-
thority in the House either to justify or prove them.
He respected the Hon. Gentleman who lately took his seat
in that House. his high reputation, his age (superior
to his own), and his distinguished station, as an officer
of the Crown, undoubtedly moved him (Mr. Perceval)
to treat that Learned and lion. Gentleman with the
greatest personal respect, but when he took upon himself
to advance in that House positions so untenable and so
unconstitutional, he (Mr. P.) would not spare terms
eit hick he thought ought to be used on such au occasion.
—(Hear, hear.)--This measure, so far as he could see,
was to be carried by force.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The.l
Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland bad furnished the
House with a definition of a revolution. It was
that which might be brought about either by force
foreign to the constituted authorities of the country, or by
what went to subvert the joint leading features of the
Constitution—the King, the Lords, and the Com-
mons. Now, taking this as a proper definition of
the term, he would say that the measure was
certainly attempted to be carried in that spirit, which
meant the threats of Minister!, the menaces of
the public press, and the representations of the
excited state of popular feeling out of that House.
He certainly considered that the force of threats
was the only argument that had been made use of
on the opposite side of that House. Ile would refer to
the speech of Col. Evans, who stated that he had 10,000
men ready to bring forward to support the King,
and he also alluded particularly to the present state
of that violent and profligate thing the Daily Press
of England—(Hear, hear, hear)—he would repeat it
that corrupt and unprincipled thing the Daily Press of
Engdand. He had been accused of being a blind bigot,
blind as he was, he had still sufficient sight left to
look about him. With the permission of the House, he would
read the language of the .Morning Chronicle some years
ago, a paper conducted, he must say, with great ta'ent.
Speaking of the speech of Lord Grey, when he said he
would stand or fall by Disorder, the Morning Chronicle said
that the order of Lord Grey under certain circumstances
could not continue to exist. He would also refer to a paper
lately established--he meant the Ballot, which was
edited by a gentleman of considerable notoriety and great
talent. Speaking of the Reform Bill the Editor said,—
" Oh, but this terrible Reform Bill is to lead to the
full sovereignty of the people, and tlsprive the
Lords of their great power." And what he would
ask, could be more to the credit of the peo-
ple? Why should there be " one law for the la-
bourer and one for the rich ?"—(Loud cries of " Yes,
yes.") This paper went on to say, that " we should be
almost inclined to forsake advocating the cause of Reform,
if it did not do away with the law of primogeniture."
He would ask Honourable Gentlemen, when they thought
of the permanence with which our ancient institutions
had endured, how much of that was owing to the tender-
ness—to the superstitious tendernesss if they would—for
vested rights.—(Cheers.) They could know n constitu-
tional rights but through the laws of the country ; and
yet, it had been contended that the people demanded
rights—rights which, if ceded, must take away from the
legal rights of others. This, he must confess, was the
most revolutionary doctrine lie had ever heard held ; be-
cause the basis of all society was that individual men sur-
rendered all their natural rights into the hands of those
appointed to receive them, and, having so surrendered
them to the constituted authorities of the land, those au-
thorities became the exercisers over the rights, the con-
duct, and the liberty of persons and of speech of all. The
Lord Advocate, whom lie was sorry not to see in his
place, had, on a previous evening, made a speech, to
which he (Mr. Perceval) had listened with painful atten-
tion—painful, because he thought that it would be difficult
to answer it.---(Cheers, and a laugh from the Ministerial
benches.) He would tell the House why he said that it
would be difficult to answer it. It was because the
Learned Lord had dealt so much iu generals, that it was
scarcely possible to characterize any particular feature
of his speech. The Learned Lord, however, had remarked
that fro:n the time of the Stuarts this country was in the
advance of all Europe in liberty, and that it was so still.
Why, if that was the case, could there be stronger testimony
brought of the advantages that had arison from the King,
Lords, and Commons, as at present constituted ?—( Cheers. )
Could there be a stronger testimony of the elasticity of the
system that had adapted itself through so long a course of
years to all the increasing demands of society, without any
injurious effect to any one particular portion? And yet,
now Parliament was to be called upon by the wretched in-
sanity of his Majesty's Ministers to knock this admirable
Constitution to pieces, and cast it to the winds of Heaven.
He did not intend to say anything further about the
Learned Lord's speech, for he thought he had been entirely
answered by the Right Hon Gentleman the late Secre-
tary for the Admiralty (Mr. Croker); and even if that
answer had not been given, he thought that a very suffi-
cient one might be found in the pages of the Edinburgh
Revit w. The great fault be had to find with the arguments
of the Reformers was, that they begged the whole epee-
time, In the first place, they began by stating that there
were rotten boroughs : now, that certainly was an unde-
niable fact ; but then they went on to say, that those rotten
boroughs were a grievance to the whole country : now
this was what lie called begging the whole question ; and
it was remarkable enough, that never had one tittle of
evidence been adduced in support of that supposition.
There was one remarkable point in the speech of the
Hon. Member for Cline (Mr. Macaulay), which he
could not forbear noticing. That Hon. Gentleman had
said, that if he were to take a foreigner through Eng-
land, and was asked by him to point out the greatest
grievancestreetthtehastvarexisetsed, , ho would take him to the parish
of Marylebone, and, after bidding him to notice the
the houses, the wealth, the com-
, fort, and the luxury of that parish, he would tell him—
here lies the greatest grievance of all England, fur this

place has no representatives. But if the Hon. Member
allowed the wealth, the comfort, and the luxury of that
populous district, how did he prove that it was aggrieved
by having no representatives to look after its interests.—
(Cheers.)—But, besides this, the real fact was, that
Marylebone, though not actually, was virtually better
represented, than, perhaps, any other district in the whole
kingdom ; for he should be glad to hear the place men,
tioned wherein so many Members of Parliament resided-,
and voters for ether piahet thronghont the country, as in
that very pariela—(Bear, hear.)—To say, therefore, this
was the great grievance of England, appeared to him to
be childish and contemptible nonsense. Among those
with whom he mined in society be had frequently, heard it
said—the Cotten boroughs cannot be defended by any
reason, and, therefore, as this is such an enlightened age,
the rotten boroughs must be given up. He lea'' heard
this said both by the timid friereis of the present System,
and by its vie7orous enemies. Now he had always bad
an answer for that remark, though those who had
urged what he had just stated would never stay
to listen to it.—(A laugh. )—His answer war this :—The
rotten boroughs constituted a greltt and valuable part of a
whole, which, t y the confession of all men, had produced
the neeetest benefits to the country—(Cheers)—and if,
therefore, the whole had done this, why were they to get
rid of a portion which had been of great and valuable
assistance to the general system ? Perhaps he might lie
able to illustrate this to the House. Now, he would sup.
pose that two learned medical men—one educated at the
London University, whom he would call Dr. Newlight ;
and the other only a poor bigot (as the gentlemen on the
other side would most likely call him) ; he would suppose
that these two learned men came together for the purpose
of holding a consultation on the human eye. ‘; Oh, (says
Dr. Newlight), have you observed the dreadful anomaly
there is in it ?" " No, (says the poor bigot), I don't
even know what you mean by an anomaly." " Why, a
contradiction, to be sure (says Dr. Newlight)." " Well,
but what is this contradiction (says the poor bigot) ?"
" Why, (cries Dr. Newlight), don't you observe the pic-
ture that there is in the back of the eye? And don't you
see that it is topsy-turvy ?—(A laugh.)—That is what I
call an anomaly." " But, (says the poor bigot) let us
see whether that topsy-turviness is not most useful and
essential." " What do I care (says the man educated at
the London University ), whether it is useful or not, I tell
you that it is an anomaly, and I will have it plucked out."
Now this was pretty exactly the case with the Constitution.
The Reformers raised a prodigious cry about the 'otters bo-
roughs being an anomaly ; and without condescending to
inquire whether their action and use were not of the great-
est service to the country, the cry was to pluck them out,
because they were an anomaly and a contradiction.
With respect to the reason for these rotten boroughs, he
could give one. Besides being parts of one general bene-
ficial whole, the existence of these boroughs furnished a
solution to that very curious problem, the extreme expan-
sibility of our Constitution, by which it was enabled to
adapt itself to the circumstances of the times, and the inte-
rests of society. All the interests in society were repre-
sented in money, the general representative of value; and
as these boroughs could be obtained for money, all inte-
rests became by these means represented in society. They
all found access to Parliament through that money they
all possessed ; and so every interest, however it might
grow and expand, found access to Parliament, and was re-
presented there. There were also the nomination boroughs,
and lie could find a reason for them. He knew from ex-
perience that if a man wanted to be above the entreaties of
friends, and resolved in spite of them to do his duty, there
were no better me ins than to be returned to Parliament
with his vote pledged to a certain line of measures. Sup-
pose he sat for a Whig borough, lie voted with the Whigs.
He was bound to a certain line of conduct, which pre-
vented awkwardness. A large constituency had an influ-
ence over a man, and were as likely to warp him from
the fair line of his duty as being returned for a nomination
borough. The peril of being warped by a patron Was not
so great as the peril of being warped by a mob, Ile ad-
mitted that it was a grievance that Manchester, Birming-
ham, Leeds, and other great towns, each of which had
a large peculiar interest of its own, and contained a
great number of men engaged in the same pur-
suits, were not represented. That evil he admitted
anti that he should be ready to cure. There was
another evil belonging to the present system—that of
bribery, which the present Bill did not touch, and would
not cure. That was a moral evil, anti moral evils were
never to be cured by an extravagant mechanical process.
He had many other objections to state to the measure of
Ministers. It was a departure from all the principles
which had been laid down by the highest authorities on
the subject of political changes. It was a saying of Lord
Bacon's, that changes ought not to be made till time de-
mantled them, and then ought to be made as time itself
made changes—gradually and imperceptibly. Reform
should be gentle. But this Bill was net gentle—the mea-
sure was not gradual—it was not at all like the changes
effected by time. Another maxim was, that the necessity
of Reform should bring about change, not the desire of
change, Reform. The cry that was raised for Reform
meant only change, for no two men agreed as to what sort
of Reform was necessary. This cry for Reform, there-
fore, was only the desire of change. As he understood the
Bill, it would give a greater proportion of representation
than at present to the North, and diminish the representa-
tion in the South. If that would be its effect, lie consi-
dered that dangerous anti mischievous. The whole argu-
ments, the complete arguments, in favour of the Bill were
all applications to the fears of Parliament. He would re-
mind the Parliament, however, of the honourable con-
duct of the Secretary at War and the Hon. Mem-
ber for Melbourne Port, anti would warn the Members
that there was a more honourable path than submission.
The Hon. Member then referred to the two parties
into which the State was divided, and regretted
that the Tories had not strengthened their hands
by nourishing the attachment of the people. lie said
there was a great conflict about to begin, similar to that
which ushered forward the downfall of Raman liberty. He
believed, however, so long as the Constitution was kept
whole and untouched, it would be able to resist, and he
should not fear the result of such a conflict. If the con-
flict came, and if the Constitution were unsuccessful—and
he believed there was great danger—if the Constitution
should fall, it would be sacrificed by those who gave their
vote under the influence of base and servile fear. If there
were but three honest and bold men in that House—men
fearing God, and, therefore, not fearing man, and not
having the fear of the Press before their eyes, and who
would bring that Press before the House for the gross and
daily violation of its privileges, of which that Press was
continually guilty ;—who would so conduct themselves,
having the fear of God before their eyes, and fearing not
men—if there were three such bold men in the House, Ire
should not fear the result. Such men would he sufficient
to themselves ; and if the House was now bullied by the
Press, it was because they were cowards before it. He
would not say more, than that he had passed many sleep-
less nights thinking of these things, and he was humbly
thankful that God had permitted him to do so much. Ile
had done his duty, and he was satisfied.—(Cheers.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was persuaded that whoever
addressed the House after so long a debate could only he
listened to by the indulgence of the House. He was, how-
ever, more than ordinarily anxious to say a few words,
and he promised that he would detain the House but a
very few moments while he trespassed on its patience.—
He was aware of his difficulty, in following a gentleman
who possessed every advantage of great talents and careful
education, and who, though much his junior, had already
been called to fill a public office ; and, fur the services he
had conferred on the country, was already one of the re-
cipients of its revenues.—(Hear, hear, No, n0.—.4
voice—" What has that to do with the debate ?") lie
understood that shout, but he begged leave to ask what
had raised in the minds of the people those natural senti-
ments of indignation which were universally felt, and
those sentiments in favour of Reform for which they were
calumniated, and which were now prevalent? What had
so much tended to generate those feelings as the returns
lately laid on the table?—(Hear, hear.) If one thing
more than another had disgusted the people, it was the
conviction that it afforded them of the perversion of the na-
tional revenue, and the mismanagement of the national
resources. Honourable Members affected to despise this,
but it was much more influential than what they called
the inflammatoty agency of the press. It might be
natural for persons to step into Parliament for bo-
roughs; for, whatever might be their political culpa-,
bility, it could not be said that they had not received
a fair trial at that bar, and been ably defended.--
Their defenders had risen up one after another, and
all which great talents could bring to their support,
auilot beee frnom urge the
in ut'ohrekirs
fwhatever perverted ingenuity could collect or could
qauvfotcire.lebrAats to it ce and able lebrated
stated on all hands that its origin, design' and inevitable
tendency were revolutionary. He justified it as a revolu-
tionary measure, as gloriously revolutionary. What was
itspurpotfe? To bring back the Constitution to its ori-
gitil design, and restore things as they originally stood.--
If it could be proved, as some gentlemen seemed to wish,
that formerly the people were not represented in this House
of Commons, ought not a Bill of that kind to be intro•
(laced, to rescue them from so ignominious a bondage
Ought not the reason, and mind, and intelligence of the
country to he represented ? To resist this measure, the
Hon, Member was ready to go forth under the banner of

I'iovidence : he called Upon the borough owners and Mem-
bers for boroughs to rally round him, and he seemed not
to despair of gathering a phalanx of such great strength,
as to release him from all fear of the consequences. Here
was the evil of the present system, that some men were
ready at once to take up arms to resist the claims of
the people, urged in the language of mild and gentle,
but Clete: mined s'emonatrance, What were Ora argumerts
With Which they opposed the Bill? I,V11;7 the Hoarse was
told, that if the 170 Members who were returned for
boroughs were taken away, its deliberations would be
like a bear garden. The Schools, the Universities, the
Temples of Learning with which the land abounded, would
be unable to furnish proper representatives for the people,
unless they entered the doors of that House through the
portals of corruption. That was a oalumny on the mind of
the country. He had great respect for many of the indivi-
duals who now sat for boroughs ; but With all hIS respect
fur them, he must say, that if they were all to be excluded
from Parliament, he believed the business of the country
would be more efficaciously done, and that with less danger
of mismanagement than at present. The assertion was a
libel on the people. It was an insult to their understand-
ings to say, that they could not scan the merits of those
who were to become the depositories of their power. By
what agency—by what unlimited will—had the greatest
man of age and country—the Lord Chancellor of Eng-
land—been sent to that House ? He %could undertake to
prove that, without those boroughs, clever wen would
easily find access to the Mouse. He admired the spirit in
which the Bill was framed. The Bill annihilated sixty
boroughs ; but did it not leave forty-seven others,
which would be placed in a better situation ?
With all his admiration of the measure, he re-
served to himself the right to discuss its details ; for
while be made that reservation, he was prepared to vote
for every iota of the Bill, rather than endanger its
not passing. He was prepared to accept and agree to
every part of it, rather than risk the success of the prin-
ciple. There was, however, one point connected with the
details of the measure which he would not pass over, and
which he mentioned the more readily, because it would
tend to calm the agitations and the fears of those who ap-
prehended dangerous consequences from the popular vita-
raeter of the voters under the new Bill, and the extraordi-
nary extension of the franchise. Ile had gone over with
great care the returns connected with the population of the
boroughs, and he found that in forty seven of them which
were to be thrown open, and whose inhabitants were to
enjoy the privilege of voting, that there was only one
which would possess as many as two hundred and seven
voters. That is, that when the right of voting was given to
the occupiers of houses rated at 10/. a }ear, there would
nut be a single borough out of forty-seven in which they
would find above 207 occupiers of houses entitled to vote
beyond those in possession of the existing right, and
whose interests were to be spared.—(Hear, hear.) Any
person who gave himself the trouble to make the calcu-
lation, would find that in the borough of Bewdley, fur
instance, there were only 21 houses, rated at ten pounds
a-year.—(Hear.)—ln Downton only nine.---(Hear.)---In
Liskeard 95. In Lyme Regis, 135. In Marlow, 75.
In Sudbury, 180. In Shaftesbury, 75 ; and in West-
bury, 16. It appeared, then, from this examination of
the working of the measure, that it was framed on the
best and wisest plan, and that, while it gave numbers to
the principle of population, it had, at the same time,
within it a conservative principle with respect to the aris-
tocracy of property. Before, however, he proceeded fur-
ther, he wished to say a few words with reference to an
accusation made against him personally the other evening
by an Hon. Member for the county with which he was
connected. That Hon. Member (Mr. Tyrrell), who had
been able to reconcile it to his sense of duty to absent him-
self from a meeting of the freeholders -of Essex, legally
convened by the Sheriff, charged him, in the course oldie
debate on Monday evening, with having used language at
that meeting which had a tendency to favour the subver-
sion of Monarchy, and the establishment of a Republican
form of Government in this country. That charge was
founded on a report of the proceedings of the meeting con-
tained in a hostile paper, and when he heard it said he
had left the House for the purpose of procuring a letter he
received the same morning from a friend, with the Men-
tion of reading it, to prove the groundlessness of the im-
putation. On his return, however, he found the debate
had resumed its former important character, and although
the courtesy of the House might have indulged him with a
precedence on a matter so personal, be had refrained until
now from troubling it on the subject. The Hon. Member
then rend a passage from a letter in which the wi iter
asked him if he had seen the attack made on him through
the medium of the Eases Standard—an attack for which
the writer expressed an opinion that those who made it de-
served a horsewhipping; and he stated, in conclusion,
that the paper in which it appeared seemed to have been
got up solely to abuse him (Mr. D. Harvey.) After
reading this letter the Hon. Member proceeded to deny
that he had ever expressed an opinion in favour of a Re-
public in this country. He had, on the contrary, laboured
to prove to those whose opinions were in favour of uni-
versal suffrage and vote by ballot, that the inevitable ten-
dency of a subject of that kind would he, to infuse so large a
portion of popular opinion, and of the feelings of those whose
power was to be found in numbers, into the Legislature,
that it must ultimately sweep away, whether for good or
for evil, all the monarchical institutions of the country.
It had been, indeed, his opinion at all times, that the
people of England were in habits, in education, and in
feeling, so strongly inclined towards the Morairchical
form of Government, that it would be extremely dif-
ficult indeed to root out of their minds their prejudice
in favour of it; and, although it must be admitted that a
Republic was eminently calculated fur the development of
the highest powers of the human mind, yet be certainly
never thought, nor had he ever contended, that it was
adapted to the situation or opinions of the people of Eng-
land. A great deal had been said of the course adopted
by the Press with respect to this measure ; but nothing
that had been said by any portion of that calumniated Press
could be compared with what fell from the other side of
the House with respect to the character of the aristocracy.
They had, indeed, used language on that subject which
might fairly subject them, under other circumstances, to
the notice of the law officers of the Crown. What, indeed,
had the Hon. Members for Boroughbridge and for
Drogheda said last night with respect to the Peers ? Why,
that they were of a character so indolent, that they la-
boured under such laz'ness of habits, and sluggishness of
mind, it was necessary for their protection, and even for
their existence, that they should possess representatives in
that House.—(Hear, hear, hear.) This was the libel
which had been pronounced against the Peerage of Eng-
land. Nothing, in his opinion could be more remote front
the truth. lie was not one of those who could be suspected
of any intention to compliment the aristocracy; but he
was prepared to contend, that the whole mind of the great
mass of the people required to be continually kept in ac-
tion, in order to keep pace with the progress of knowledge
among the higher classes. It was indeed impossible
to avoid perceiving that some of the ablest men in that
House were either the sons or the connections of Mem-
bers of the House of Peers, and heirs to those honours
and large possessions which had been transmitted through
a long line of ancestors. It was said, however, that the
measure before the House would sweep away that Aristo-
cracy, and all the forms connected with Monarchy. His
answer to that was, that as long as the people were con-
vinced of the utility of those institutions, and as long as
they could command the force of reason in their favour, no
measure which that House could adopt would effect them;
but if the feelings of the public were unequivocally set in
against them—a danger which he saw not the slightest
reason to apprehend—did Members of that House think
•
that any Bill or measure of theirs could prevent that feel-
ing from taking effect, or that they could darn up public
opinion by an Act of Parliament? It was, however,
asked in a very masterly manner last night, by the Hon.
Member for St. Michael's (Mr. Praed), if they took this
first fatal step towards a more popular representation
who was to answer for the consequences ? His (Mr.
Harvey's) answer to that was this, that no one was called
on to answer for the consequences. Who was to take on
himself to determine what the state of public feeling
might be some centuries hence—or, if they pleased, 25
years hence? 'Who was to scan the public mind, and say
what might be the bias of the public mind in after-times?
All they were called on to do as practical statesmen was
to apply practical principles to existing circumstances, and
leave to those who will hereafter rise up for the purpose,
the task of applying new principles to those new circum-
stances which the changes of society may call forth.—
(Hear.) But were they not to adopt a great present im-
provement because they were told that in some future time
some probable inconvenience might arise from it ? No-
thing, indeed, surprised him more than the hostility with
which some Hon. Members regarded this measure ; for
not a single individual had spoken on the subject who did
not admit that some improvement was necessary in the
state of the representation. If, then, they admitted that
improvement was desirable, they admitted the whole prin-
ciple of time Bill, and the only question remaining was as
to the degree in which it was to be applied.—(Hear.) If
then, it was admitted that Birmingham was entitled to be
represented, how, lie would ask, was that good to be ef-
fected, unless through a course somewhat resembling that
which was now prepared with respect to rotten bo-
roughs? It was said, however, that the holders of
these boroughs should have compensation. He had no
doubt of their willingness to accept compensation ; and

it Ministers had declared themselves open to propo '
sitiona on that point, and erected it box at the I
Treasury to receive them, he was quite sure that they
would have received offers of twenty or thirty such bo-
roughs at a very moderate price. The objections of the
Noble I.old (Darlington), whose course in that House was
so opposite to the patriotic disposition to make a sacrifice
for the good of the country which dietinttuiebed his Noble
Relative in the other House (Cleveland), went wholly to
the fact of a refusal o f compensation to the owners of bo-
rough property. He had, indeed, heard the Hon. Mem-
ber for Curie Castle press, in a low voice, that point on
the attention of his Noble Friend at the time he NV,S
speaking ; and he had ito doubt, that if such a measure
had been proposed at first by the Government, much of
the keen calculations and halances.striking arguments of
Hon. Gentlemen oppOsite would have been spared. I-ic
Was convinced that the feais for the fate of the aristocracy,
and the dread of the popular character of the House,
would have yielded at once in Hon. Members' minds at
the prospect of receiving some thousands of pounds for their
interest as boroughmongers. He was, however, no euemy
to compensation ; but as the Solicitor-Genera`, whom lie
saw near him, could tell them, when a calculation of the
value of property was to be taken under such circumstances,
they al ways took into account the usufruct. Now, sup-
posing an Honourable Gentleman about to receive
56,0001., or whatever else it was worth, as compensa-
tion for the loss of Corfe Castle, he should like to know
at what sum they would estimate the enjoyment of
the office of Cursitor Baron, preceded by a Commissioner
' of Bankrupts, which the lion. Member's sun or brother
• had obtained solely from the possession of that borough.—
(Cries of no, and hear.)—He should like to hear an ex-
planation of the merits or services, abstracted from their
borough influence, of any of the Hon. Members who en- '
joyed places of profit of that description.—( Hear, hear.)
—Unless their merit in cheering those speakers who
lugged in their arguments, and chiming in with an assent.. '
ing " hear" at the proper place, he feared their merits I
would be found very small, and that, instead of paying any
compensation to the boroUgh-holders, the country would •
have a large sum to receive. He believed, indeed, that
the oreater part of the opposition to the Bill was founded
on the, mere nary motive which arose from the absence of
a clause of compensation. lion. Members did not, how-
ever, consider that there were some persons in an humble
station of society who would also lose by the operation of
the Bill. A great number of his constituents—men who
cherished the exercise of their political rights as one of the '
clearest muniments transmitted to them by their an-
cestors, and who might be supposed to cling to it '
with pride and affection, were yet willing, although
not boasting hereditary honours, to make a s teri- I
fice of their highly-prized rights for the benefit of 1
their country.—(Hear, hear.) After observing, that
those who complained of the appeal to the people
now were the loudest in calling for it with respect '
to the Catholic Question, the lion. Member declared, that '
if the people were not unanimous in demanding Reform 1
they deserved a continuance of all the evils under which
they had so long been suffering. He did not wish to detain
the House longer, but he could nut conclude without ex-
pressines an opinion, that the speech of the Member for '
Waterford (Mr. O'Connell) gave him great pleasure, as
indicating a return of those sentiments which were best
calculaectl to bind the frail bat k of Ireland to the sterner
stock of England. The Hon. Member for Boroughbridge
(Sir C. Wetherell) bad spoken at great length against the '
revolutionary character of the Bill, and he had expressed a
fear that lawyers and men of eminence would not obtain
seats under a Reformed Parliament in that House. If it
should pa-s, and any amendments were introduced giving to
Smithfield-market a right of returning a representative, he
thought that the Member for Boroughbridge, he got
Grimaldi to propose him, and those who frequented that
market to cheer him, would have a good chance to be re-
turned as Member for that place of humour and fun.—
(Hear, amid a laugh.) The Hon. Member begged pardon
for having troubled them so long, and concluded by im-
ploring them to restore the Constitution to its original purity,
according to the principles adopted in the Revolution of
1688, and now followed up by the present Government.
Mr. GOULBURN, after stating the reasons which bad
induced him to postpone so long addressing the House on
this important question, said that before he entered upon
it, he wished to make a few remarks on what had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Colchester. That Hon. Gen-
tleman had made an attack on all those who held opinions
different from his own. lie attacked them, not for the
weakness of their arguments, for with them he did not
grapple; not for any particular expressions which they
had used, for with them time Hon. Gentleman did not
quarrel ; but he attacked them either because they repre •
rented boroughs which in his opinion ought to be disfran-
chised, or because they were in possession of sire cure
offices which he thought they ought not to hold. Now,
if any man, either in the House or out of it, who held an
office of that description, ought to be exempt from any ob-
servation upon the subject, or ought to be considered en-
tirely free from the slightest stain with reference to it, it
was undoubtedly his Hon. Friend the Member for New-
port.—(Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr. Goulburn) confidently
appealed to all the Hon. Gentlemen who sat near the
Han. Member for Colchester, whether the possession of
the office held by his Right Hon. Friend the Member
for Newport, so far front casting any imputation
upon him, was not a subject of exultation and glory
to his lion. Friend, as being the reward which
a grateful country con erred on a father, eminent for his
services to the State, and who, in the discharge of his
public duty, fell a victim—not metaphorically, but lite-
rally fell a victim—on the threshold of that House to the
honesty and zeal of his efforts ?—(Hear.) He (Mr. Gaul-
burn) was old enough to remember that melancholy day.
He had now present in his mind the feeling which per-
vaded the whole House on the occasion. There was not
then in the House any man anxious to point out the fact
that the man so slain was a 3atesman, and held an office
under the Crown, but men of all parties, both those who
support. d, and those who opposed the measures of his
Majesty's Government, were anxious to mark their sense
of the services of an individual who had shown himself
superior to all corrupt motives, and who throughout
the whole term of his adrdnistration of public affairs,
had not provided for a single member of his family, or
except in one instance, had appropriated to himself any
permanent office. Parliament marked their sense of that
Right Honourable Gentleman's eminent merits, by settling,
on the recommendation of the Crown, a pension of two
thousand pounds on his son. If his lion. Friend the
Member for Newport had continued to enjoy that pension,
what honourable man could have thrown the slightest im-
putation upon him for doing so? It so happened, how-
ever, that some time afterwards, when the office of a Teller
of the Exchequer became vacant, his Majesty's Govern-
ment, with a view to a public saving, withdrew the pen-
sion which Parliament had bestowed on his lion. Friend,
and appointed him to that office. But, because Govern-
ment thought fit to perform this act of economy, was his
Hon. Friend to be taunted and flaunted with being a pen-
sioner of the Crown ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Goulburn) did not envy the feelings which had induced
the Hon. Member for Colchester to make the observations
in which he had indulged. The lion. Member for Col-
chester had thrown out imputations on the opposition to
the measure now proposed by his Majesty's Government, m
as for the most part proceeding from the representatives of
places which that measure sought to disfranchise. The
lion. Member attributed that opposition to improper mo-
tives. He (Mr. Goulburn) did not pretend to judge of
the motives of others, but if he were a Member for one
of those boroughs which the Bill proposed to disfranchise
he should certainly not think that he was performing an
unworthy task if he were to defend the rights and pri-
vileges of the electors who returned him, and who
claimed to retain those rights and privileges. Nor
should he be afraid to compare his motives with those
of time Hon. Member for Colchester. The Hon. Mem-
ber allowed that the proposed measure would have the
effect of greatly reducing the electors of Colchester.
Whereas, at the last election, nearly fifteen hundred indi-
viduals voted for that borough, the number, in the event
of the adoption of the Noble Lord's Bill, would be reduced
to six hundred. The lion. Member would therefore be
returned by a more select, and perhaps, to him, a immure
agreeable body. There had been one or two topics intro-
duced :into that debate, not immediately connected with
the subject before the House, on which he wished to make
some preliminary observations. The first of those topics
had been introduced on the fiat evening of the discussion,
by an Hon. and Learned Gentleman who rose to overthrow
the law of his Hon. and Learned Friend near him, lout
who sat down without adverting to it. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, alluding to the duty which the Noble
Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed on the transfer
of stock, contended that it was no violation of any exist-
ing law, and that it was, in principle, similar to the re-
duction of the interest on the Four per Cents. It was
important to correct this error, that it might not be
everyt
terms
r
urged on any future occasion in justification of a violation
of
public fand in theAo
faith and nationalts
by which
honour.
Thecorrection
s p rio
th n u
t ;
n tpillm'ee as
aloof a be foutnos were fixed ; and in which it
was expressly declared, that the holders of the stock
granted for those loans should be.s free from the imposi-
tionoono t their
notwithstanding.respect-
~ shares,i,h e " o
y future
. and
Act ofof anyp xm Parliament
Learned Gentleman could not himself use stronger or
more conclusive language. The next observation on

1
,4a
Affsiri

'
which lie wished to say a few words was made by }l,ls %ri: 1
to e
ble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign C
His Noble Friend took credit to his Majesty's Govern- 4112
for acting without reference to patronage. NoW tette°
Noble Friend and he had been long in office together, Ana
!tith
he was sure his Noble Friend would not say that the.ill!, 1.144
Iron ige of the Crown had been perverted at that ti latioratc
Hiniing disposed of these preliminary observatien4the tiatrilet:
would proceed to the question immedii,tely ht'fc..reßilii it
House, lie would not enter into the details of t" fof Leider et
for it was disadvantagions to discuss the particulars es bi ettrrecti'
measure simply on the statement of those particular the have
any Hon. Alember. If, therefore, he consentroedightto.oo:bot, ttiktorn..e
40:
introduction of tie Biil, it was only that he
roughly understand the details before he consigned it t
on. tirta. e
Oblivion which it merited. It had been said to Tightroi gat I
none'nts of the tneasUre, that thy opposed the,:dieis estatoeiatl
Parliament to deal with the elective franchise of '11,4 414
duals in boroughs. He (Mr. Goulburn) disclaimed tieing forkerib
one of these who denied the right and power of Floni. differeneY,
ment to deal with such a subject. Parliament waa:tates Liti • bt,
pa.t:nt. It had power to deal with the private "owe
0! individuals. It had still snore strongly the di over tta'
err
to deal with the elective franchise. But the theleaded
tu6!
aims between the supporters :Ind opponents of eat 11111 1‘,1;
measure was this : the latter said "You re' 41e1,11re
make out a case of absolute necessity with.'oter, whit,,
fereace to the public safety; otherwise your, fill 441 e ti
op
Terence will be an act cif moral injustice, anu„for 4iktlirt;al
subject yea to just reprobation." The Hon. 11Iemee: to
Malliurst and another Hon. Member had volunteer got "pt the
relinquish the elective franchise of their constituents; sod uPleewh.
it was not so with others, for instance with his got fe• r? the "
Learned Friend the Member for Bon ouglibridget W'°ett' 'in'ternn
nionstra-tl against the surrender of the rights of "tcfr ICati.
stituents without previous inquiry. If large towpitarbeol tles of 'a
sent unrepresented were to have representatives, let
were ifol,y
ec
he transferred from the boroughs where the electors the the
diaposed to surrender their rotes, and not froUltoral 10sotyPz
boroughs where they were not so disposed. • It yeas abero kt,lttle
by Waller that James the First, being at dinner Whoa ear,)
among other company, there sat at dinner two eis dor lleac.'
Neile and Andrews, proposed aloud this question, elid 41seure
he might not take his subjects' money when he need Ijodr :e art'
without all this formality l'f Parliament? Neile ref of go to
th
God forbid yon should not; for you are the beeaiteaid d
our nostrils." Andrews declined answering, °Gavot' during ti
he was not skilled in Parliainentary cases ; butt yoit ifetaf th
the King's urging him, anti saying he would 111 i ad ere,
of no evasion, the Bishop replied, very pleasant'll'O 'ilsf
'`Why, then, I think your Majesty may so ho haed
my brother Ncile's money; for he fif,re the t,lis Peru;
he would say to Parliament, " You may t3Mbel (itteo bo'
borough of Midhurst, for the Hon. Member fel. the eucalled
borough offers it."--(A taught.) The objections tjt/dger fureth
proposed p'au of Reform had been stated over se% to wil'ir,d, th
again, and lie would not repeat them. He obj'etreo's ork,4 the
change that which he knew to be good, for the P.uir'tte ; ttts trt
of adopting something which he was merely told reuge for i:(4terty
better. They had been told by the lion. 31en'beo'f IP. Per'
d
of
s,,hat thesis rew4
n 1 Vipc,
iifiattt:te:oo:flt;:eio-
hart cur ~ tie mi ctcooll.lenedsenutoji,.(.;:r,:ittnir(gy,lni:;ooa(f:Atapihrre.rcksolGpii:ororsuuoesiube:)u;f arntn,
st
taught to believe, that the prosperity of the country ss'ol tss detabei4eu
proof of our geoi institutions ; but he was new
it was no such thing, for that those institutions Wcr„aesoli ren,4
lueless. lie was considerably disappointed in the I•!'t'ota ttotleer
of the Noble Loid who brought forward the prol'u%'loth aaot,
In proposing to reconstruct the House of Corinur"tbet 4tiloa
forgot to st .te how it was intended, after the change, . thtt tl
tile Government of the country should he conduotetl'olf wh.t
had lie-n said that tiny ought to argue the questiont.oo, set
with teference to the written forms of the Constitu jioof 0,1?
told 0, E
(I,veal
That was a narrow view of the case. 'file Constitotro; o.top,ine,
like the law Engl tnd, was not founded on theor/ slocrfer b. 4 Pe j
but also on the practice that hail been growiegc°;ool :11;elte°1y-,
years. If there was one right possessed by the . tia „at they
more sacred than another, it was the right of aPriu; 'l°l4l tit
its own Ministers. Undoubtedly, the Crown 114' ithef ,4t
point as 'Ministers individuals not entitled to sit itieriar mtatry
House of Parliament ; but, practically, it was Ounoilec ae'Nea
pedient that the Ministers of the Crown should sit'n-e tett
in one Home, auntie in the other, for the Purr;eol" it ~rOtsly
explaining and defending the measures of Govern„ die 41'4 a:
Now the very boroughs which it was proposed 1;00 ,44tled,
franchise were most frequently the medium by p
'Members of his Alsjesty's Government obtained statist,' 1.44.1 di,
that House. He might appeal to every Administrelorr
Ihterrrent
he might appeal to the present Administration, "rli„etiqf pat the
without the aid of those boroughs, it would not fiegct 111 it'd 1;4
be impracticable to seat Members of the Governoed 11(Ilear,
the House of Conarnona, whom it was mast 01°4i ti
th, ibli , .4s should be there? What he wish bob ••.`te atta

se public services should be tma tin
a,,lt the Noble Member for Tavistock, therefore, 044brsi°
after the proposed Bill was passed, Ministers would.° eV
admission into that Ilouse? He had been told, in pre il‘s a ttte
versation, that nothing could be more easy than 5001° tall'i,dred
vide that Ministers, as Ministers, should have st 3/
that House. He did not know if the proposeesi!'j 3°' as;
plan had any such ulterior object in view. Ile 'kale; 'tan C,
know whether, in the reconstruction of the House° ka'oes,
mons, they meant to introduce this new prineiPlehrosl
did not know whether they intended to give to tbewehllt
the power of appointing to seats in that House as , jtoetts
to seats in the Cabinet. If that was teally their st"l ut, j
ought to have been stated ; if it was not their "qctos' fig; t.,a''orst
possible exclusion of the 'Ministers of the Crowo let° /fide of:^oiSi
lianieut was a strong ground of objection to the Nobielta tohtlers
motion. It should he recollected that it was fret Vl4)
duty of his Majesty's ;Ministers to propose 'nee% shed
which the people at large were averse. But tw.-I,oo'' tae f era
years had elapsed since his Right Hon. Friend, Wee'
Muni
not at present in his place, did that to which 3, retro A"ve
Baronet opposite said Members of that o°°3-tittlei. 8441,4(
not prone ; he resigned tie trust which his co°. kohl it th
had reposed in him, because, in the discharge of bli9ftlicf tit,: of
duty, he was compelled to oppose their wishes- trsa t
ever, there had been no borough by which his Big gas, fsrit ole
Ft iend had been enabled to resume his seat in thata lkadslee
his Majesty's Government would have been deprive the. is a th
organ necessary for the explanation:and defence °reef ltnetttter
measures; and especially for carrying through a Poe': steiit'utl
tion, the success of which the lion. Gentler:Oil th
eCtir '1
the,
hi
would not deny was essential to the peace and s to
the realm. Ile wished to know how the Noble L°otre'so /ith'e
posed to avoid such a dilemma? If this Bill welifiiei,itr S
:Imo effect, it would occasionally occur that Es-Pot c`'4".
would be shut out of the House—men who were itliellierj,;, ihttttitoe
inidable in opposition, in consequence of their fa as sat 110,
with business. This, perhaps, might be ceosideeve Nttbtryt
commendation of the measure. Happy would 'the 0 ;J. tstaetice
Chancellor of the Exchequer to come down to t oirripf ,I tit'
with a clumsy Budget, and find no man on the oarsr, I`,,,aoroei
tion benches conversant with Treasury figures tohe 11'1,e ittilltite
and confound him ; and happier still would it e to( %sit
First Lord of the Admiralty, who had an estiroa`bo %,'tenet
Urt,
pose, and was anxiousr'tolim,
to impugn the conduct "14
dneoctessporresseinntoffitoce,d,tfoenbde
tehneallnd,eetilvteos.do so wa-lbwenrovtti-je
Noble Lord's scheme so far as it was directed to `gel ire
nution of the expence at elections; but Ile coote% of Ott '111,115 r
object could be attained without a reconstructor to fit'
House. Bills, for instance, might be brought the the '44 N
effect ; and he had no doubt they would receive iltelY, rite cot
dial support of a great majority of that House. la (Jiecg
ed
plan of the Noble Lord, he maintained, ve°3ol,:i"'ltil
tend to increase the expence of elections, 11,$-ert° se l'ostt!
boroughs similar to those now having front t'aeoieetiet: 'tett w't
voters, which were notoriously the most e%13 dire 4 4iity ft')
corrupt. lie was of opinion that none of t/nf ,14 tosu:
urged against the 10/. rate by the opponeot9 V"i3e; Ito`
sure had been answered by its advocates s' 501,easeseil
the position of the Lord Advocate, that there( pro e tritketit
cessity anything permanent in that species ° dote pie :44)4:
which was to confer the right of voting, silleea qty
no limit fixed for the possession of a house 05cfre'
rent. Ile likewise objected to the measure, beeviercs; 4,lnid 4'
privet] the lower classes of their right of retneiaiilti,he (it
sentatives to Parliament. He could net, he collie,
template the possibility of the measure being 1,3e,t tpttat
was well convinced there was sufficient ter relo,tie',
country and sufficient firmness of the H°We jog se' it
But if lie could contemplate the event of its be,oo,f or
he could also contemptate a House of C°,°ll,lle°,esile
the representatives of the people of Englano, tvoslios toe ',hadn't
temporary passions and prejudices—of a o°l 31'3.0(.0e tidait 4o
as once before, inordinate power, and rea4 ex est
hereditary branch of the Legislature, ants (),,bert oil
Monarchy. In conclusion, he stated, that -roes!
came he would give the measure his inost
oelloictloP ~ogb it
terrnined opposition ; and repeated his e and .to, flip a'
country
there was sufficient wisdom in the tl'e, ea g
rof
in the House of Commons to reject it. tbsonV the orli
Mr. LENNARD did not desire to overie,trof.treeles
narchy or to abolish the Peerage, but to the d.e.`iab (-400 ,
rupt boroughmonger'ng system which iv 34, e Cyr Nalt,
of the rights of both, and thus restore t° vela ater itt Ce
Bm,t. taUtt 110,
and to
fallenit ancientfrolyi the
ipeu
lion.r ty. bsaeird
fbohreicbcc orl,,rliegetioilordjte;
specting the feeling towards Reform so' 110bij 00 ill ;NI,
the county with which he was connecte-
soteatthere; it
stood the Hon. Member for Essex to haveetreeg lrleh'eti stl
feeling in favour of Reform was not ~a eo rj t >b dew
proof of which he adduced the fact, tseileoedeol?tbe
Pl
specting his vote upon the question ii 'a el
toy ttt '4oc
on the hustings. He could not denY
the f,„rie",(ertr ate
the case ; but most certain it was, --'t bt,-)te fe -
Hon. Member (those who who suppornte,,dfoco
pressed with the opinion that he was 3

, i Auk
made by124,...t SCl.44lhd as decidedly every wall in the county was in.
Foreign A:'-0 to 4. -11ith " Tyrrell and Reform."—(Hear, hear.) And
try's Goverool.. 114._ !teller that his Hon. Friend was a reformer, he
/stow 9 thiindOUbt he (Colonel Tyrrell) owed his election. He
sage-
ice together, 44:1_,ired, too, that his Hon. Friend stated at the
frqoTory Meeting held in that county, that he was a
t say that the
ted at that tillP
tmilfteti Reform, and that the declaration gave extreme
observatiouhthe tlittn., 011 to the assembly. He proceeded to observe
tely btfcr billi it ~.'4e tiliasure was called a revolutionary measure ; but
tails of t.°,_, he t'ather a Bill for the restoration of rights. If lease-
particular. o'7 eittetfa.
""'t eonyholders similar to those at present had
F.'e particular! ibi,t,
tilsitilth h.ar'nerlY, there could be no doubt that they would
tut the right of voting.. If large towns, such as
-005
sited to,e,
a he gt the titre eolla„enrepresented, had been formerly i existence,
: Dell t° ti nus be no doubt they would have bannspresenta•
onstgne-',.. owl ht.
.....
raid to taebtseil 4,14 General] speaking, he would give his support to
,sed the '''g_s•eis' estada'nre, but would take the liberty of suggesting, in
told, o_fft;:ip•gi
toetzkiti. tk_tee, that the franchise, as regarded leaseholders.
re advantageously extended. If the people had
disclanneu, iis..l .
dd._ Y been silent on this subject, it was not from in-
power of rtr • ,
~„ oar' ri.,-"are to Reform, . .
talent 0/"' tifetq ‘v; b but from despair of seeing it car-
putnow that saw in office a Government that
rivate et,,,eieri %e teiiiie t they i .
iy the c..e.r. I 4ltiin _ g 0 carry Reform, they expressed toeir appro-
g dor•
%4 of the •
But the tbe t, measure, in favour of which they had now
thit tvastleataye with petitions. They had been told that
portents of
4, You re. %sure ''2 Improper time for the introduction of the
Islity with tee, tt whi
~1 bnt he thought otherwise, end hailed the period
~..10. its 1 At that Way introduced, and thought it was the fittest
lissetid:and
..10.", orklL jettilioaat cot uld htve been chosen. He asserted, in con-
o. Me' to tit tlitt them 0
those who had declared an opposite opinion,
,°cl volunteer t!it th_' fle,ure was not the consequence
hoof intimidatien,
[onstitueots; to spit, e
.iincevitable result of the triump those prin-
ith his 00 re, the ewh it had been so long. and so zealously advocated
bridge, fth° cod' het td
who were now the Members of his Majesty's
ghts of of
pres ""tC4,O, '.4--(Hear, hear.) This measure was not, like
op fit :NI tohe qtieation, one that had been extorted from the
rge tote tseat. if of in, . '
ws- ts / collide—al'
tAtives, let _..fl they Government, who would have withheld it
the electors. tia , the ~, , (Hear, bear)—but was a spontaneous act
,d not frog bps pact of the Government, and came, therefore as a
I. •It teas littkimle that it was
ItieaLeald with the grace of a matter of favour, at the
really an act. of justice.—(Hear,
t dinner2l„o.,
er
two bn,ttior [ ki....clfue,shnuld, therefore, give it is cordial support.
oestion, W.:As %, "Its, ete:ittrA.llLES DOUGLAS could not support this
oee.f.s, eto pti... kith he thought was founded in a violation cf
en he "7,f ht. "ciPies fTo Constitutionwhich seemed him to
Neile reph .• - the 0 the
~ kr.. nestruction of the institutious of the country.
re the breitt old
• an • %tie Alderman WAITIIMAN was' sorry to s: e, that
ering,bot, opoool iitfo: 0,
i trse debates, many Hon. Members had risen up to
sea ;would 84, ,414 epee'le abuses of the Constitution more openly than he
% please:oo NI j.f heard before. The pertinacity with which they
iri • fill'),,lSe no 11„;ncl,e,1 these abuses quite astonished him ; and those
;'ff,la: itoil. p. 1.4:
t‘e. ht•r•;_in the strongest terms,. defendedt those abuses were
may to' oil
tvileil 67 who were individually connected with these
tiientmber for ty. L.lleallool f°oghs. They had been told that this Reform was
bjectiona tl roc' ;ger:,
.e th.°Dr, because there was no complaint of grievances
d over se"t°l to 1,-t_tati, th-essouse ; but he denied that assertion : for, in his
He obje° feta [ .tit the People complained of the worst of grievances,
p.srthe , tithe In Y declared that they bad no voice in the election
for the
‘1 told relghfor [ Nen en Who made the laws by which their lives and
,3' Meat i 0 64, ti Y Were to he disposed of. It was a fact, that flinty-
'''. 1.4111 141 of eera returned above sixty Members of Parliament—
us and b 0 PE ! 0 who
.„ that the 0 1 ,74),, . ru held places of profit or pension under the
-01;ears wf,:ets ..Itte pelrsaounds how was it possible, lie asked, to consider
[burn) hat., I klegiun, , Its the true tepresentatives of the people of
se count*, --, tbot 414 ,
itZ• Yet, the power they possessed was consi-
as
new tolo 00 . Goo __ the Constitution of that House was such, that
;utieee werospego ty retoearilline.nt could not go on without their aid while
Lad in the .0 ie eon.. gained in it. He denied that this measure was
„nog NI
the pror- 0 i 47:1..uen.ce of intimidation. Never had the people
5f cm,oloBl4oii Noti
the'alm and temperate in their demand of a right,
the change; 0 i/
that present occasion, and it was a libel on them to
ittes‘h.th,eY Wished to upset the Constitution. The !Rea-
e conductswiejl
teseteuthe
yleoniltdhe Government had now introduced was very
he questio. too,
the Corot'ifratia* very cordially approved of by the people, and
ile Cons""-001 Prohne°7nernment had worthily gained their confidence by
on theor/ la ji thlipto F 4.--(-rear.) At the same time that he said
i growing of lot Peritti P e demanded their right of full representation tetn-
i by the er'..o . IS %Yet,' I'I.;V
demand
observe, that to refuse it to them now
lt. of ape. ,r•;,45, itu... demandit, would he most improper, and
''o rnightityt 'eat bar wish of the people were attended to, lie feared
"Awn sit Warr ttikatt„ eftlequences might ensue. The people of this
t was 00,0 I,,ttieneitl. ere not in the least disloyal, but by long mis-go-
ait,,L of, !
LIN tors,utti.nhd by wasteful. expenditure, they had been re-
should
the parr-ot• .-vskeel . • suffering, that they had been forced to inquire
r oft"GOVer°ll3 if t iii
47 ,Into the cause ; and having done that, and found
ed 104 Ntded met imperfect state of representation, they sle-
pt-ors_ . as, to, ,
lai_.:,,t, ,'',15.,,,i: " With good reason, that that cause should be
dium
1,74,1 did' It was said that the peeple. who made this de-
obtained Vr-.
Adrniui!ellen., tot"m not understand the Constitution. He denied that
pit ,7,,,_,Ntse . but if it were true, what did it prove, hut
Irciatnioont,fferi 0 1
under-
NI
~wase:itiAltutiou which was incapable of being
Goverotee 'of '‘li....(ll,ear, hear, f 0 r nothing and required to be amended?
most Oita', ON so one
_f,_ He wished to call the attention of the
hat he wi9r be auvrided7reurnatance which seemed to have been but
re, 'IV vas set 10, and that was, that when the Constitu-
',reerf:woulo ear; I, olii,:d ted at the Revolution the people were only
itt, ~b,....,.,ere.,,,.._,:er0us as they were now, and the debt
teen old, 'A
than tO r Ored ni.„u. C. At present the debt amounted to eight
'LaidsYba„ se°, tV ciett. . nlions, and the annual revenue to fifty
~,,s 0; let 1710 ii ,„!, and the change, therefore was so great in popu-
props,
to '4 01 -•,M,' M rev
Be f colf 14, t Coilst. enue, as to require a corresponding change
ehver.flouse 0' 1/4 L._ett, ald istvtiti".—( Hear, hear.) Under these circum-
...,ciplee, Ztitoeet: ithout troubling the House further—for his
r pri..
0 the eils' %Nude ,en the subject were well known—he should
;ice t
Its ts is 't ke "Y declaring, that he gave his cordial support to
ell; t
yiesatte.t! , It,. 4841:re.
L.-Y . eiee''oeil Nte s 11l ZGERALD was strongly opposed to this
their ~ 0,01.4 e Zsea,:„S Hy which his •
Crowe ',':,„lfr's;g: ntte,_•ullasion constituents were to
) the Nob t!9 te IN Ors 4
t, --Were to be for ever wiped out of the list
, even kit Whet . 'le kingdom. He denied that this measure
tase'rroeesortosr 0tk,,,; had been called—a renovation of the old Con-
pffilßut two leo. tiselateriodit
was rather a destruction of that Constitution.
„,. i„k
...that this was revolutionary in its nature; and
Friend, vil'"00,
0 which in
lieft g tevoluta.-lntber fur Colchester acknowledged that it
; „ llouse.,oo, 14:1 It" '"ary, and said lie gloried in it on that account.
ass
.11
ceosto b it .. t •
tit
,MEMEER whose we could not learn
a la f biO Cl' t• N:I *next he tir'st heard nor this measure he though;
iarge ° 11, Pii, ttti'ult to 2 In. ost weeping Reform ; but when he had had
wishes. -ht 4e ,nosider .
h his Big fistr foi. nitiso it fully, he saw that it was a just and
land,
torethoef wholesome Reform ; that
.it was con-
eat in ti?seat 1.1
en dePril oft ii Itr,4e 'Visit ofprinciples of the Constitution of Eng-
which it manifestly adopted, and was 1 defence
pre
gh a Fri inteli‘iiet7tn'h.e" with the original rules of justice, liberty,
Iwo
__..o op., t, (Li h., It was in accordance with those principles
entlersecol? ts;ty sii"ee eXisted before all Co stitutiona and on which
ce and rd
Noble ifreerfidjs tivte ittliihtsot°ll l_iPend;
.and inn that belief he was ready
Bill welit°olo72 tt • STum)'„and cordial support.—(Cheers.) .
that Esnstres etiell'. litt " was, we believe, opposed to the Bill.
re re .eir ik tittle, 'TUN said, that in justice to that numerous
ho we renoe if -It
their ,
red ° t ittis tin'e, to
eY
"'hem he had' the honour of repre eating in
osije 40r, to try, 1. gether with his own feelings towards the
to ce be ,ttet, me cold
would the Pj• N,I. ce to the not consent merely to give a tacit con-
own to t orro 4.,,,,.: .N.... 7 measure proposed by his Majesty's Govern-
-1.1 on die or, lqinestio "iun could. be more adverse than he to any line
figure s.°; oifis, tkiltitati
.t no ac}' that. could by possibility injure
.that
ould it t 6/ i tette -.4% Precise which we had the happiness to live;
0014 Ey 4,441.44ty for that reason that he should give his
'n .t of ° rid tetteeee int the Proposition of the Noble Lord, with
)odivub,,en tbsly6
; 47, a ,teParb!.eenn..ents further discussion might suggest.
[e oppeocoto strio 14,4, Preservatiio framed by men having so deep a stake
!eted to
_Jel As ttlea %nit! not be
of public order, framed by the Govern-
Ile coteo' olio . 11,tlheou, ie %iv deemed of a revolutionary, or even of
,nstruet°°lo,l9 . hoh,:_iioe, thatn"ney. But he felt the danger to be on the
roUgIA ieL,xa , k.,d ~,, not the adoption, but the rejection, of the
~„, to,-,•sr k,N. 5,._,...eamr,. _ ...
I roc' $l/1, ,_rti ;10. thin,' will entail a state of things, which no
House.
ti, . it' Nti-,`‘' to
.„(I.,'_` of without shuddering, without being
4, woul
se"
all
14144
ea•Ke every effort, and every proper sacrifice,
,0, by .0:1 1 14;c4 Y iby I'lleennter it. They were not surely called
from thtioSeiege ' 1444:taue„
..". Members to treat with indifference the
ost e%Pe 11) [Ole kit)
o,,ttuld eoand wants of the times in which they lived.
f the( i opoili Itia t ,h,
sin-on. Member, who has had an opportu-
o ft t toe— -le . .
3nenta °d he if ;:I,' 1447, be. " ,tite of public feeling throughout
7:so ;re/ idle oem_ bold enough to declare that the demand
I,eie fir ife ett-
tic at
duceee.,oud and so general, could be rejected
• of ei/ 1:1 uenter? Had not a •ht spirit been
re,cloe9ince Iv Jr lt.ty t.liee.goYiotecent events, fresh in themrigecolylectipion of all, '
, 0
_lol,e t‘liticolgi,t lat that very moment around them ? And
asuree:
bee,
wow%
0"
4..tnot be lulled
assured that the spirit thus awakened
tetur" 'ili 9 °Vit a by the somniferous orations of those,
ti
esl., Al ass; . .. etual abuses
the scr,,,i, tOrmi. No - '
' being ear ,- A Ito e ~tr, ~ t wisely, but too well,"
.00
_;:floca, , Ithtlars tha:uat the whole structure should fall about
nt °to ri to 1 •R. °De snug comfortable nest should be dis-
Hotoe •ng eety , 1` Eile; would sa •
its be' sot
.0' TV rid, the t• Y With the poet,
i 0,
of . , 4 The he„tb. mite is come when thou sliould'st wean
''''''''lnbo;oo.eis'''. IP hilloth". i_ dldtthrui th sfrulditnewrnasbcbuelattteineguft°lcrer'stood ;
land,
,i, i it es have been House
shol7f.t tiogirshore
of
th n unsttled."
early t° the is , 14410 4411 to e most complete infatuation could
the necessity of conciliating the people—a
orer tli° e %i. ciuhi
bat 41 1 i - e eat all times,
whv 10 wi .'et dose
.1 A but absolutely requisite now.
aro.oo, Ae , ,
.._ eel, e_, 11, he should just notice some observe-
set e •cti tor . 1p twitit t 440 been advanced .
re' j 0 .'''' [ Ittita, eteren by Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
ee to the decayed and objectionable bo-
os"t coo d
40 ' Which
antrl . • 'wr . 11%4 ii, ...) the h
• tilts of [ 144 tied the ii LY ad been told, had been the means of
vetch $l,lOOO ; ilsit; alt
no 'lf 80 much talent into that Hon.
vet,- I
... ~ 11, 0 no ty ..
0 ciestr/esty vow i %,. 11 voletnber Hon, islember, except the Hon. and
Waterford who, in his eloquent
too tb.ie 0041! ift i s,-4. i t:4 la 4 t night ,ohr. sW_
.hstoovemehaodseesnorntoe pointed observations
ebe cal thltZtikk nfetPeaheroed._ to
point out the probable
coot
or iaelt
of bleseppo.aite quality admitted throu h the same
f0r...1, Ilereli# iN4 the lien- Gentlemen said, that, for the. well-
-04'11'0013 tl,W;io Nt.tPesa co--übtrY, it was
I. 1,0405,0°.$
I ..
toe% e _(, necessary that the Aristocracy
7 ohewisilerahle influence in the return of
ve .g 4 . .. hit enntimans House of Parliament- Now
;attre?,olo: ',_..,-,
.‘ll-, tivicr!,_ .
moat, be influence, which always should,
,040740 I.olii ''' e th°l be attached to property, no one wished
s cle'D hie (AO? ie.: hitv e •Aristoc
,at t . _O. -. ,o A„_
.e felicitous]
-raeY ; and when Hon. Members
tP frieP,ile tt'qltltu • "nuslY proved that borough influence
t the.
Iv ) fot pit 24 inouence, that it was not one of
eat tlenal • a
ted h of
the good
,sense of the nation,
a etif9e 'lan[nits to

the most unjustifiable mode of parking an elective
assembly—(Hear, bear, hear.)—then he, for one, shonid
be unwilling to disturb it. But believing, as he did, that
this aristocratical influence tended to the annihilation
of one of the three great estates of this kingdom, and
that not the least important—the representation of the
people ; reducing the Constitution, in its present very de-
cayed and nearly worn nut state, from a Constitution of
King, Lords, and Commons, to that of King, Lords, and
their dependents—(Hear, hear)—instead of the free choice
of the Commons of Englan!—(Hear)--believing that;
he could not sympathise in the wish of those Hon.
Gentlemen, that the Aristocracy should be permitted to
retain what, in his opinion, was an unconstitutional power,
under the gentle denoinination of a considerable share of
Parliamentary influence. He would repeat the words of a
celebrated writer—

"Let us exult, that they who rule the land
Are men who hold its many blessings dear,
Wise, upright, valiant ; not a venal band,
Who are to judge of danger which they fear,
And honour which they do not understand.—,(Hear.)
Mr. COURTENAY said, it was possible that it might
be called a Reform which was in truth no amendment ;
the tendency of any measure, the effect of which would
be greatly to popularise the house of Commons, would
destroy the balance of the Constitution, and render it im •
possible that the King and the Lords should preserve
their proper weight. Mr. Fox thought as he (Mr.
Courtenav) thought, that although the Constitution might
be somewhat absurd in theory, it was excellent in practice.
Tc keep the Cor.s itution unchatr,etl, was to keep it in
such a state as would most contribute to the welfare of
the country. In his opinion the tti pounds rent afforded
no security for intelligence and education, while it pre-
sented as many anomalies as existed in the present system.
On his own principle, the Noble Lord (J. Russell) did
great injustice, and he ought to have recurred to the prin-
ciple of Earl Grey in 1797, who proposed to give all house-
holders a right of voting. He saw no one practical benefit
to he derived from this measure ; and the Noble Lord had
not stated a single particular in which there would be any
solid advantage. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
the in inner in which the proposed Reform would apply
to the borough of Totne•s, which he represented, arguing
that it would introduce evils not now existing there. At pre-
sent the place was perfectly free and open, without bribery ;
hut some of his constituents wrote to him, that after this
Bill bad passed—if, indeed, it did obtain the sanction of
Parliament—they would do their best to secure his re-
turn ; but that a great deal must depend upon the decision
of the Privy Council on the point of extension, and on
the influence which a certain Noble Lord in the neigh-
bourhood would possess and exercise. Thus the Bill
would substitute a patron for perfect freedom from all con-
troul. He objected also to the unequal justice dealt out.
by the measure, disfranchising some boroughs, and pre-
serving others, which, if the same principle were carried
through, ought to share the same fate. According to the
population returns, about two-thirds of the boroughs would
require that the neighbouring parishes should be included.
He resisted the project of the Noble Lotd, because he
thought it revolutionary in two senses—that it infused too
much of the popular feeling into the composition of the
House ; and that when once that change was made, it
would lead to others, which, in time, would leave behind
scarcely a vestige of the Constitution.

Lord STANLEY—Although he might differ upon com-
paratively minor points; and, notwithstanding the man-
ner in which it interfered with the interests of individuals
and of certain communities, was happy to find that among
his constituents at large the Bill had received not only as-
sent but the warmest approbation.—(Hear, hear.) Many
of those, who bad never dared to express an opinion be-
fore—who had been transferred from hand to hand like so
many cattle—wire now beginning to know and understand
their rights, and to assert and exercise them.--(Hear,
hear.) He apprehended that a very few days would elapse
before same Hon. Members who represented boroughs
would find calls made upon ther_ such as they had never
heard before. A spirit was abroad which would soon make
itself audible in Parliament, even to those who were un-
willing to listen. There were representatives in his
county who would be required by their constituents to
support Reform, although they had never before taken
part in the question. Many and great obstacles stood in
the way of Reform ; and when the Noble Lord first
broached the subject, more than a week ago, he (Lord
Stanley) trembled for the fate of the Bill, fearing that it
went too far. He did not mean that in his view it went
too f.r in principle, but he feared that by doing too much
the Noble Lord would endanger points he could otherwise
have secured.—(Hear, hear.) He had now the most
cheering and confident hope of the success of the propo-
sition, and he would tell Hon. Members opposite, not
in the way of threat, that their recorded opinions and
votes upon this question would not be forgotten by their
constituents. The great point to be considered was this,
ought the House of Commons-tO ternahr longer an equivo-
cal assembly, asserting that it represented the people, while
the people disowned the House; or ought it really to re-
present the feelings and wishes of the elective body, ani-
mated only by a desire to promote the general welfare?—
He had the satisfaction of knowing that, from the day
when he first entered Parliament to the present hour, he
hail never represented a close borough. It might be said
that great influence had been used, and whether the fact
was or was not so he did not pretend to say : this he knew,
that he bad four times represented the same place, and that
he had maintained private friendships with many of the
individuals he represent-ed. Three times he had had to
endure contests, and it could not he said, therefore, that
he had been the representative of a borough, where, from
the em,Pne.ss of the constituency, opinions were all one
way. He had now the happiness to represent one of three
of the largest and most populous counties in the kingdom,
and, although an alteration was to be made there or else-
where, he was satisfied that it would be beneficial, and
his constituents would rejoice in being able to contribute in
any manner to the completion of the plan of Reform. He
was glad, also, that the borough he had formerly repre-
sented would alio be included in the general scheme of
amendment. It would give him the greatest pleasure if he
could in any way promote the measure.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS was understood to put some
questions to the Noble Lord who introduced the Bill, and
to the Lord Advocate, respecting these parts of the Mi-
nisterial plan of Reform in which Scotland was compre-
hended, and to complain that Ministers had been forgetful
of their duty in coming forward with propositions of such
importance to that country, without such explanations as
would render their intentions intelligible.

Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE (Member for Hertford)
said that the longer the debate was protracted, the more
it became necessary for those Members who had consti-
tuents to express their opinions. Hitherto two-thirds of
the time of the House, during the debate, had been occu-
pied by Hon. Members who had no constituents.—(Hear,
and laughter.)—Those Hon. Members for rotten boroughs
—(Laughter)—had said again and again that the people
of England were nut desirous of Reform, hut the people of
England had given ample contradiction to that assertion in
their petitions to the House ; and his (Mr. Duncombe's)
constituents had authorised him to thank his Majesty's Mi-
nisters for the noble and unflinching manner in which they
had redeemed their pledges, and opened to the people the
prospect of a free representation.—(Cheers.)--They hailed
the proposed measure with delight, for they saw in it the
destruction of that aristocratical influence which had so
long disgraced the House and destroyed the rights of the
people. In the presence of his nominees, the Hon. Mem-
ber who opened the debate, with as much zeal as little
reason, had said that he (Mr. Duncombe) was not a good
authority. He considered that he could not give a better
reason for not oftener addressing the House; and he
thought that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) could
do nothing better than to imitate the example. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge had
called on Ministers to stand up in their places and defend
their measure if they could. But it appeared to him that
they had well defended it ; so well, that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman must now be convince that his chat-.
to the Ministers might better have been omitted.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) Yet he would imitate the indiscre-
tion of the Learned Member for Boroughbridge, whom,
as the Hon. Member for Colchester had aptly said, he
hoped to see in his place as the " Learned Member for
Smithfield"—(Great laughter)—and ask that Learned
Gentleman—and give him his own time too—to reply to
the speech of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for
Ireland—(Cheers and laughter)—or, if that was too
much fur him, be would ask him or any of the gentlemen
opposite, to answer the speech of the Lord Advocate if
they dare.—(Great cheering.) Imitating the indiscretion
of the Learned and expiring Member for Boroughbridge—
(Laughter)—he would call upon him to answer that.
speech ; and to do so he would give him to the passing of
the proposed Bill—(Hear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell)—
" and pass," said Mr. D., " it will"—(Hear, hear, from
both sides of the House)—and up to the last moment he
would give the Learned Gentleman to answer the admi-
rable, eloquent, and convincing speech of the Lord Advo-
cate.—(Cheers.) He feared the answer would be as great
a failure as was the reply of the Ex-Secietary of the Ad-
miralty the other evening.—(Hear.) He did not see the
Right Hon. Ex-Seeretary then in his place ; but he would
take the liberty of saying that his reply was to the speech
which he attempted to answer, as the trash of a certain
Sunday newspaper to the eloquence of the Edinburgh critic.
(Cheers from both sides.) Never had there been a Bill
proposed to-that .House.--under circumstances more auspi-

ciols, or with reception more promising- For, by whom
was it proposed? His Majesty's Government, with the
sanction of the Crown.--(Cheers.) Who supported it?
The whole nation—(Cheers)—and who were its oppo.
nents? None but the rotteraboroughso_(Continued cheer-
ing.) For that opposition the people and the Ministry
musthaVe been prepared.—(flear.) The opposition of
the Hon. Members for Wareham and for. Callington, who
called the measure a revolution, was a compliment to the
Bill.—(Cheers.) Bot did those gentleinansuppose that
the country would support them, even if. Ministers were
weak enough to retrace their steps and bow to their deci-
sion ?---(Cheers.) The country had seen the Ministry at-
tack and take by storm the outworks of corruption, and
boldly summon the citadel to a surrender, and was it now
to be supposed that they would .desert them? " No,
(said Mr. D.) ke' • borough- proprietor., I say unto you,
if you do not open your gates to those Ministers of the
King and to his people, your obstinacy may for a little
postpone our victory, but the weakness of your bars and
rottenness of your bolts are such that you cannot prevent
it."---(Laughter and cheers.) They had been told *hat
there was something like revolution in the. menaced disso-
lution of that beautiful assembly.—(Laughter.) If it
were treason to differ from the opinions of the Learned
Member for Boroughhridge and from the Noble Marquis
tSe Mernher for Buckingham, then he (Mr. D.) would
ph-ad guilty. He sires so great a rebel as to recommend
to his Majesty's Ministers (should the 801 be rejected) to
dissolve Parliament, and to appeal to the country for fresh
support--(Cries of " Oh, oh ! hear, hear," and great
laughter)—aud more—he would say at the same time,
that the Government would be justified (should they find
the dissolution neces,ary), in recommending to the Crown
to suspend the writs for the sixty rotten boroughs._
(Great cheering and laughter on both saes.) Upon such a
proceeding the unanimous voice of the country would put
the stamp of legality.—(Cheers.)--In adopting this the
Ministers would secure the thanks and gratitude of the
country to themselves and to their Royal Master. He
knew that.there was a pat'ty in that House composed of
some persons who bad been, arid of some who fain would
be, Ministers—(Hear)—who hoped that by turning out
the present Administration, they should be enabled to suc-
ceed to their places.—( Hear, hear, froorathe Opposition.)
He asked did they think that there ever would come a
time when their anti-reform or sham-reform projects,
would be tolerated by the country?—(Cheers.)—Let riot
those gentlemen lay the flittering unction to their Tory
soula.—(Shouts of laughter.)—Let them not deceive
themselves that the country would ever again consent to
be governed by their old principles of patronage and cor-
ruption. As had truly been said by the Noble Lord (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), the time for that Govern-
ment had gone by. " Endeavour to restore it,. Tory, if
you can—and the country will set your borough lesisla-
lotion at defiance; so that nothing but confusion and
anarchy will ensue."—(Cheers.)—He hoped, however,
that the Legisliture, by adopting in time the efficient,
safe, and consoitutignal Reform proposed by the Govern-
ment, would avert such a crisis.—(Che.re.)
Mr. TENANT addressed the House -amidst such con-
fusion and noise, that we cannot say, with certainty, that
he supported the motion, which we supposed him to do, in
the few sentences of which we could occasionally catch a
word or two.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to reply. After a de-
bate of greater length than, be believed, had ever occurred
on any other subject, the time had come in which he
might endeavour to explain some of the points in which
he had been mistaken in his address to the House at the
opening of the discussion. He, in the first place, must
express hissu,prise that, in a question of this importance,
so interestng to the Constitution, so vital to the future
welfare of the country, one-half, if not three-fourths of
the speeches against it had been confined, chiefly, to per-
sonal gibes and taunts—(Clieers from the Ministerial
•side)—and to endeavours not to point out any great and
essential faults which might be found in such a measure as
this, but to accuse some of his Hon. Friends and himself,
that in the adjustment of this measure they had considered
partial interests.—(Hear.)—He did not expect to hear
such an accusation thrown out even to provoke a cheer,
or that any Hon. Member could have been liable to the
suspicion of pursuing a course so base.—(Hear.)—He
did rot expect that he should he suspected of fixing on
some paltry and petty course, where relations of his own
were concerned, anti that he should have been supposed
capable of sinking all his notions of duty, and his feelings
of respect to the House, in a project which must have
been discovered upon the first appearance of the plan.—
(Cheers.)—But if he had not expected this from the House
in general, still less did he expect it from his Hon. Friend
the Member for Callington (Mr. Baring), with whom he
thought he had lived too long in habits of friendship to
expect that he would fix upon him a slur of this kind.
He should answer in a few words what related to the per-
sonal part of the objections. They (his Majesty's Mini 7
eters) had taken for their rule the population renifni of
1821. They might have gone a great deal farther. If
they had wished to exclude Tavistock, they might, in-
stead of 168 votes, have removed 260 Members from the
House.—(Hear.)—They thought it not advisable to pro-
pose a measure of suck extent; but as this was a per-
sonal question, be begged the House to observe, that
when they had marked the lipe it eppeared to them to be
one not open to cavil. If they had fixed upon 500, or
800, or 1000, what would have still been said if there were
a few boroughs spared in which Whigs had some con-
cern ? If the number of 3,000 had been fixed upon, the
objection might be the same. Out of the 25 b 'roughs,
only two or three had been selected for animadversion,
whilst there were 22 others, with which no person on
that side of the House had the remotest connection. He
could only say that the subject hail been carefully looked
into ; different returns had lai en laid before the Govern-
ment, and although population returns might be uncertain,
they were the most correct documents upon which the
measure could be founded. The Hon. Member for Yar-
mouth (Mr. W. Peel) had compared the returns with a
documeat containing an account of the population of Tam.
worth ; but would it have been expedient to found an act
of that House on the mere letter of a returning officer,
without knowing whether it be correct, and when return.
ins officers sometimes confessed their totals ignorance of
the subject ? The Hon. Member bad compared Tavistock
with Tamworth, in respect to the number of houses rated
at 101. a-year. But the indirect objects of tax.officers
rendered their returns not always a. sale guide. But the
Hon. Gentleman, in trying to raise a cheer, after com-
paring Caine, and Tavistock, and Tamworth, had not no-
ticed in the second return that the number of houses in
Tamworth was 130, and in Tavistock 260. But he laid
no stress upon this. He did not pretend to say there were
not some errors in the details ; but Ministers had thought
it the best way to take all the data out of the returns,
making no private inquiries of their own, but con-
fining themselves to Parliamentary documents, laying the
measure open before the House, in order that gentlemen
might, by their own information or by documents, prove
that the ground was improper to legislate upon. Ministers
had thought it a fair basis, and had taken no partial ad-
vantage, so as to favour any one borough more than an-
other. But the Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr.
Croker) bad told the House that they had not gone by
population, though they had professed that the population
returns constituted their codex; that there were certain
boroughs containing 4,000 or 5,000 voters, which re.
turned more Members than towns containing 14,000 or
15,000. But he (Lord John Russell) hail never intended
this as a measure of symmetry, by which the House.was
to be reduced to a certain number of Members to each
county. Such a plan of Reform might be better.or it
might be worse; but it had Doi been intended to go by it.
He could tell the Hon. Member that Westminster, with
180,000 inhabitants, returned no more than St. Alban's.
or Reading, or other places containing not one-tenth of the
intoansd ani
districts,t
s he le
anomalyftanitwd.
with which.he did not
vipoiottipe
nur
interfere
ea
rtteiho;enc.aos
country
eitarftyoun,
ap3p'hoerttitoinettbsiugretoo:
ach
district a certain number of Persons, might be a great
and a wise scheme ; but it had not been thought so ;
but if the Hon. Members opposite thought. otherwise, let
them bring that measure
,forward, and show themselves
more extensive Reformers than the present Alinisters—
(H„s)—but do not let them put forth mere vague ob-
pstrioapeerthpelanploesefißnetfornrmea,subruet._to(pHreevaer!)t allT Rheefoßrmigh,
jections, not to show that this was not an adequate and
nhseafrodr himthe
plan.(L r d JohnH e
oRo
confessed
he gave few reasons; it was, he thought,
tanudonto.
Baronet, the Member for Tamworth (Sir Robert. Peel)
rneaostO
. sufficient to
give
saidany thatt.ge ingenious
uhsa d
mention the greatevils of which reasonable men complained,
and then to produce the plan to speak for itself, as a re-
medy for those evils.—(Hear.) That it had spoken for
itself, was proved by the reception which it had experi-
enced in all parts of the country.—(Loud cheers.) The
plan had been read in the south, the north, and the west,
in Scotland and in Ireland, and no fault had been found
with the want of ingenious reasons. All were satisfied
With the scheme as it stood, because, one after another,
the great objects were obtained by the simple use-of com-
mon sense.—(Hear.) But the Right Hon. Baronet had
.read an extract from a speech of his (Lord John Russell's)
in 1819 (to which he bad paid an undeserved compliment),
wherein he (the Noble Lord) had passed a high encomium
upon the Constitution, and had asked how he could re-
concile that- panegyric with the measure he had now
brought forward. It was not -impoi taut to consider

whether he had changed his opinion or not, but as the
speech had been read, he had referred to it, and he found
that he was partly right and partly wrong. With re-
ference to the working of the Constitution a century aft-r
the Revolution, he was right; but in attending to the
history of the country in the past century, he had not
paid sufficient attention to the wOrking of the Constitution
in the present. •
. .

" From fiction's heights, tvhcie he had Wandered long,
He stooped to truth, and moralized his song."

. -
In 1829, however, he had seated in that House, that
with reference to the existing state of the representation
and of the government of the country, considering the
progress which hail been made by the country in intellect
and in wealth, and that the middle clam; bad made so
great advances iim knowledge,and importance, and, com-
paring that wealth, and intellect, and intelligence with the
institutions of his count:7, he found ihet the constitution
of the House had grown to be on d 4sasiß narrower and.
narrower, whereas it ought to rest on a b :six broa(ler and
broader; and he had stated that if that inequality was not
corrected,
the growing intellect of the country would soon
be dissatisfied ; that it lied appeared that the Members for
small boroughs had divided in the proportion of three to.one
against every retrenchment and economy; whilst Members
for counties bad divided in the Same proportion in favour of
enonomy and retrenchment, and having gone through
this investigation patienly, he had concluded that a larger
Reform was necessary than he had before proposed. Al-
though there was some egotism in reading a speech of one's
own, yet, in order to illustrate his opinion, he would read
an extract from the speech he referred to :—" The indiffer-
ence of the House to the measures I then proposed ha,
compelled me to look for others more calculated to insure
the co-operation of the country at large, and to obtain from
the House in the gross, that "Reform which they were un-
willing to effect by gradual and unpretending means." Ile
was sorry that the change he then propo ed of addine. 100
Members to the House hail not been sanctioned, for though
not altogether calculated to remedy the evil, it would
have been a step to a more perfect Reform. The Hon.
end Learned Member for Boroughbridge bad said that
Ministers wished to introduce a democratic assembly, and
make it co-ordinate with the House of Lords and the inn-
narchy. But there was a fallacy in the words " democratic
assembly.'' The Hone and Learned Member implied that
this democratic assembly would overthrow the House of
Lords and the Crown. But he (Lord J. Russell) dented
that this Reform would make a democratic assembly in
that sews of the terms. Because Yorkshire, which now
send four Members, will in future send six, must they all
at once become democrats ? Or if Manchester shall send
Members to Parliament, they will be more democratical
than those for Liverpool and Bristol ? Fear often conjured
up apprehensions which were never realised, as when the
Corporation and Test Acts were repealed ; and Catholic
emancipation was to be an end of the Constitution. In
short, almost every change produced alarm with some—
even a change in the Game Laws.—( Hear.) Amongst
the mixed objections in this debate, a Gallant Officer, the
late Secretary at War, had urged two ; one was, that the
measure would take the crown off the King's head ; the
other wes, that it would give too many Members to the
county of Durham.—(Hear.) As to raking the crown off
the King's head, he thought the House might safely leave
his Majesty to the protection of the people.—(Loud cheers.)
Hon. Gentlemen who spoke will so much vehemence in
favour of boroughs were mistaken in supposing' that
boroughs formed ramparts for the protection of the throne.
—(Hear.) It was not by such rotten and decayed timbers
that the" throne was supported. The boroughs had much
greater influence in advising the Crown, and were calculated
not no increase the loyalty of the country, but to diminish it.
The Crown would be more secure, and the throne more
firm by being placed upon the affections of the people.
They were the fittest guardians to maintain the in-
stitutions of the country. What might be suited to other
times were to fit for the present, and the sooner the
vicious parts of the system were cut off, the more would
the people be disposed to look at it with that respect and
reverence which the people. of a free country should enter-
tain far those institutions by which they were gamded.—
But they had been told that it would be impossible for the
Government of this country to be carried on if there were
no boroughs by means of which Me-others of the Govern-
ment could find seats in that House. He thought that
this was a very great mistake, and though be admitted
that boroughs were a convenience to tile Members of the
Government, yet he thought that they were merely a con-
venience, nothing more.--(Hear, hear.)—When a gen-
tleman took upon him an office of State, to which labo-
rious duties were attached, it was doubtless convenient to
such a gentleman that he should have no constituents, for
then he was relieved from what would otherwise form no
inconsiderable addition to his occupations—the care of the
interests of constituents. He was sure, however, that
there was no foundation for the supposition, that because
gentlemen happened to be Members of an Administration,
they would be rejected by every large body of constituents.
The University of Cambridge was represented by Mr. Pitt.
the town of Liverpool by M. Canning, and the county of
Down by Lord Castlereagh, for a very considerable pe-
riod, and he believed that they might all of them have re-
tained their seats for those places if they had chose. He
was certain, too, that if the Right lion. Baronet opposite
(Sir R. Peel), the Member for Tamwoith, had stood for
Liverpool, or for any large manufacturing district with
which he might happen to be connected, the people to
whom he presented himself as a candidate for their suf-
frages would gladly have availed themselves of his valuable
services.—(Hear, hear.)—ln a word, then, he admitted
that they might at first be subjected to this, and perhaps
to some other inconveniences; but he contended that they
ware mere inconveniences, and he supposed that no Hon.
Gentleman would expect that great benefits were to be at-
tained without some trifling inconveniences.—(Hear.)
He was convinced that these inconveniences would be
largely counterbalanced by benefits, and though the former
had been loudly sounded in this debate, yet he was confi-
dent that they would be found of very little weight in the
practical working of the plan.---( Hear, bear.) Again,
much had been said by the gentlemen opposite about in-
, timidaCon ; what, however, would these gentlemen say to
these words of Lord Chatham—." If the House will not
reform itself within, it will be reformed with a vengeance
from without."—(Loud and continued cheering.) Had
he, or had any gentleman on his side the House, said any
thing half so strong as this? and yet these words of Lord
Chatham
bad been perpetually quoted in debates in that
House, without the gentlemen who quoted them being
found any fault at all with. But he would read to the
House a passage from the speeches of Mr. Burke, who had
been so much cried up as the patron of these aristocratic
institutions, the protector of that House against the de-
mands of the people for Reform. This was the language
upon. us ; and let us not deceive the nation,
loefngAtlhr.ctutrke :—" The whole hope of reformation is at
which- does us the honour to hope every thing from our
virtue. If all the nation are not equally forward to press
this duty upon us, yet be assured that they will equally
expect we should perform it. The respectful silence of
thoie who 'wait upon your pleasure, ought to be as power-
ful with you as the call of those who require your service
aSome, without doors, affect to feel hurt
fors t 1
because they suppose that menaces
are huhd out to you. ;itr your
rightciign.ity,
Justify their good opinion by show-
ing that no menaces are necessary to stimulate you to your
duty. But, Sir, whilst we may sympathise with them,
in One point, who: sympathise with us in another, we
ought to attend no:less-to those who approach us like men
,and who, in-the guise of petitioners, speak to us in the
tone of a concealed authority. It is not wise to force
them to speak out inoie plainly what they plainly mean.
But the petitioners are violent. Be it so. Those who
are least anxious about your conduct are not those who
love you most. Moderate affection, and satiated enjoy-
ment, are cold and respectful ; but an ardent and injured
passion. is tempered up with wrath and grief, and shame,
and conscious worth, and the maddening sense of violated
right. A jealous love lights his torch from time fire.
brands of the furies. They who call upon you to belong
wholly to the people, are those who wish you to return to
your proper home—to the sphere of your duty, to the post
of your honour, to the mansion-house of all genuine,
serene, and solid satisfaction. We have furnished to the
people of England (indeed we have) some real cause of
jealousy."
* * * " Let us return to our legi-
timate home, and all jams and all quarrels will be lost in
embraces. Let the Commons in Parliament assembled be
one and the same thing with the commons at large."—
Such was the manner in which Mr. Burke disposed of the
theOrY, so popular
,among the gentlemen opposite—that
this House ought not to be the representative body of the
people,• but something better ; that it ought to have no
connection with the commons at large, and that it
was Much better constituted without such connection.
--(Continued cheering.)—A few more words from this
speech of Mr. - Burke :—" The distinctions that are
made to separate us are unnatural and wicked contriv-
ances. Let us identify—let us incorporate ourselves with
the people. Let us cut all the cables and snap the chains
which tie us to an unfaithful shore, and enter the friendly
harbour that shoots far out into the main it moles and
jetties to receive us. ' War with the world, and peace
with our constituents.'" These were the words of Mr.
Burke, and which the people too, at that time, thought
would be a sufficient remedy for the evils they complained
of. All the exertions of Mr. Burke, however, all that he
was enabled to effect, - could not prevent the hydra,
though mutilated, from raising his heads again. Where

one extravagant abuse hail been lopped off, ten more had
risen in its stead.—(Hears)--The people now looked for
another and a more effectual species of Reform. The
people thought, and in his opinion they thought reason-
ably, that they had found such a Reform in the reforma-
tion in that House, whose peculiar province it was to rote
the public money—(Cheers)—such a reformation as would
make the House a vigilant gusrlian of the public purse,
and- of tare public interests.--(Cheers.).—The people,
therefore, would no lunge: he contented with a Reform in
places, and colicee, and prison'-os(Hear, hear)—but de-
manded such a Reform as would render it necessary fir
them to trouble themselves foe the future with ituririee
as to whether this office or that office was abelished,-a
whether this salary or that s:ahatly was reduced,—which,
lie s aid, would render these inquiries tsnnecessery, by give
ing them each a state of representation as wentld enable
them safely Co dee-ere] upon their representatives for to;sine
carts that wh re an office e'its useless it sheathl be abolished -
—when a salary was too. large if :hould be retrenched—e
seder's ere arata.eetat was unnecessary it ehoull not be
made—and when a law was operessive it esat be
passed.—(users.)—liist 1e...-"ieved there was oily ode
point more to which it would .1s neeessary for him to
allude. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member
for Tateiworela had been plsased to 'egret, laiestly on
his own account, partly on their (the Mir.islers") account,.
and partly on account a the fee:lnlay, that the Government
had not postponed the queetien of Recesran, or, in the alter-
native, tl:,t the Government had not propottesl some mea-
sure of moderate ,fe.ferna, against which no Yee:isolable I
objections could have been tereeed.—(Hear, liar.) Hy
this species of Reform, he supposed That the Right Hon.
Baronet meant a Reform, of which the diefrenchieement
of certain boroughs would not form a part, and 'rebid'
would not confer any greet extension of tOe elective fran-
chise. The Right Hon. Haronet hail said, that the Go• I
vernment would have been aide to tete pissed such a I
Measure through the two Houses of Parlia-neet without
difficulty or danger. No doubt they might : hut if the
Government had taken this cote ete,—though they would
have avoided much trouble and oppositissee—though they
might have conciliated a vast mejerity of that Pouse, and
be -n carried with triumphant success theoueh the f!eese
sion,—yet allow. him to amyl that they would at the same
time have prepared many and great- evils for the
at large._(Much cheering.) The Hon. Member for Cal-
lington had said, " It a strange thing that, eurnehow
or other, our institutions do not work well : there is ear-
taiuly a something in them which requires amendment,
but I confess that I cannot teii what that something
is." Novo this might be very well for a. critic of the
Constitution; but let him tell the Hon. Member for Cal-
lington, that it would not do for responsible advisers
of the and servants of the public.—(Cheere.)—
It would not do for them to exclaim, when they saw
thing,' going wrong, " It's a very strange thing that our
institutions won't work well."—(Cheers and laughter.)
It weal not do far them to admit that something
required amendment, to process their ignorance of
what that something was, and then let the matter
seep.—(Cheers.) No; it was their duty to endeavour
with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their
mind, to find out what was wrong, to apply the proper
remedy, and to make things go better.—(Cheers.) He
thought that there was a greater evil, and one that per-
vaded tie whole country, than the construction of that
House. The evil to which be referred was, that there had
been for several years past in the country a want of con-
fidence—a growing want of confidence—in public men—
(Cheers)--that the people had fallen into the habit of se-
parating themselves into parties, sects, classes, and unions,
proposing their own remedies for the evils of which they
conaplamed, and seeking to attain those remedies without
looking to any party in that House; and all this, in con-
sequence of their imperfect reliance upon those who were
called the representatives of the people.—(Cheers.) Now,
he much feared that if this state of things were to be suf-
fered to continue, it must end in a separation between the
constituted authorities of the realm and the great mass of
the weight and intelligence of the country.—(Hear, hear)
What, then: would his Majesty's Ministers have done, in
this condition of circumstance., by proposing a half and
incomplete measure, but confirmed that distrust, and
rooted for ever that want of confidence which he was sure
every one would admit to be pregnant with the most dan-
gerous consequences.—(Cheers.) If the Ministers had
done this, they might have gone on for a time in
triumph, buoyed up by the applause and support of
those whose personal interests they had consulted ; but
this state of things could not have lasted, it would have
been impossible for them to have gone on long with-
out the confidence and support of the nation.—(Cheers.)
And suppose that he and his Right Hon. Colleagues were re-
moved, did the gentlemen opposite think that they could
maintain their ground in office, and persist in denying
Reform ?—(Clieers. ) They could not etrertain a suppo-
sition so vain. On the one hand, there would be want of
confidence in them (the present Ministers), who would
not only have denied the people, but basely betrayed them.
(Much cheering.) While on the other hand, there could
surely be no confidence in their successors, who persisted,
with honesty he was ready to admit, but certainly with a
degree of obstinacy which precluded all hope, in resisting
those measures upon which the people had set their hearts
(Cheers.) And to what condition would they then have
reduced themselves 2—( Hear, hear.) They would no
longer have it in their power to settle Reform upon a mo-
derate scale, which should give equal representation to all
the interests of the country, but they would have forced
upon them such a Reform as might properly be called a
revolution—osuch a Reform as they could not resist, and
which they would be compelled to submit to as to the law
of the conqueror.—(Much cheering.) Let him not be
idly told that they would resist still. He had heard men
go on for years with these threats of resistance—he had
heard men say that they had taken their stand
upon constitutional ground, which they would never
abandon, and yet he had seen those very men driven
to the necessity, ; not only of laying aside those
threats of resistance, not only retreating from the high
ground they had assumed and declared they would for ever
maintain, but even coming forward and proposing them-
selves those very measures which they had so frequently,
so resolutely, and for so long a series of' years protested
against.—(Cheers.) He had seen enough of the bad eon-
sequences of yielding to fear, not to be deeply impressed
with the truth, that by far the wisest course was to do more
than was expected from you—(Hear, hear, on both
sides)—to do what was just and -reasonable without being
urged to do it—(Cheers)--to profit by the seasonable time
of doing that, which, if so done, would be received with
gratitude and respect, but which, if deferred till it was
not. possible to defer it any longer, would be received with
thanklessness at- least, if not with contempt—(Loud and
continued cheering.) The gentlemen opposite said that
they would not be intimidated: but to what did this
language amount when coupled with the qualification by
which kilted not been unaccompanied in the Hon. Gentle-
men's speeches? It amounted to this, and this only—
" We will not be intimidated to-day--(Much cheering)—
we see no reason for a Reform at present ; wait another
year, and then, if the demands become louder, and more
serums, and we see that resistance is really of no avail, why,
then, we suppose we must yield."—(Much cheering.)
Such, he contended, was the result of the speeches of the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite. But those gentlemen talked of Mr.
Canning and Mr. Huskisson. Now:he happened to know that
both Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson, though it was true
they had always opposed Reform, were nevertheless of opi-
nion that Reform would be carried before many years had
elapsed.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was only last year that he had
shown to Mr. Huskisson, at the bar yonder, the resolu-
tions which he intended to propose on the subject of Re-
form, and after reading them Mr. Huskisson said, " I can-
not support these -resolutions ; but I have no doubt that
before long, something of the kind will be carried in Par-
liament."—(Cheers.)—lf such had beeq the ()Onions of
wise and enlightened men, why, let him ask, should they
wait any longer? Why continue to resist that which
could not be ultimately averted ?—(Cheers.) If Reform
were to be carried, let it be carried now,—let them do
that now with a good grace, which they must do at last
with a bad grace,—let them sacrifice their prejudices and
raise to themselves an altar for the sacrifice in the affec-
tionshe
en)
md—pLbayet
patriotic
ohttel
ce them imitateekne,
o andf
N ot
—leyenl(i
examplef Nor-
folk, lk andof t
bwhichtheipwelead
t people.—(Cheers.)—Let
let
them be assured that there was nothing mean, or base, or
Chsele'reetall-tgla;
cowardly, in sacrificing their personal interests for the
sake of establishing future peace and harmony in the
country, and giving.full, and, he hoped, long enduring
satisfaction to the people.—(The Noble Lord, sat down
' amidst loud and long-cOntinued cheering.)
The SPEAKER then put the question, " That leave
be given to brine in a Bill to amend the representation of
the people in England and Wales."
The 'motion was agreed to.
The." Ayes" were shouted in louder voices than we-
ever before heard in the House of Commons; while the
"Noes" were only three in number; one very loud, but
the other two very dispirited and low.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the representation of the people in Scotland.
Sir G. CLERK protested against such a motion at so
late an hour of the night.--(Cries of " Oh, oh.")—No
part of this measure bad been explained to the House.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
The LORD. AD VOCATE thought that the Noble Lord
sufficiently opened the 'general outline of the measure iu

r his iettioluetory spceeb. Ile ever, if the Home thouteht
differentiv, he should be able to sopply any otnissireus
which the Noble Lord might be supposed to have inn,le, ill
a very few sentences. While the borough representation in
I.:Tom,' was diminished, that in Scotland was increased
l;> the proposed plan. . This was an apparent difference in
rue plices for the two countries; : but the difference ex-
isted only in appearance. The plans were coinci-lents. and
the pritteipleg of them were id,nti :ally' the same. In Scot- •
land there were thirty county Members,. and fifteen
rough Mt mbirs. It was proposed th it the county ',Wein-
berg should be reduced be tern. It wilF proposed that
Scotland, instead of returning forty-five Members, eboodl
sat futtire return fifty, and that of these, twantystwo
Ire returned front horoinehs. The mode of getting a fair
representation for Scotland was, to unite the•small counties
with the lare. The population of Peeblea and Selkirk did
not exceed 17 000 souls, and it was justifiable to unite such
trsnties, in order to make up an aggregate population for
the purposes of representation, which might be in some .
proportion tr; the general representative system. By the •
new plan, all who were qualified would have a vote, and
• none could have had mare under the old system. The
wealth of Scotland consisted in commercial towns; of re-
cent growth, and the view of Government was to divide
the allocations. According to the Union, the city
of Edinburgh had the privilege of returning one Member.
Glat.'gow was now the third city of the empire, supporting
the interests of half a million of men, and therefore two
Members were attribund to it; Paisley was a rival to
Glasgow, with 50,000 souls, and therefore one Member '
was given to it. On the same principho Aberdeen, Gree-
nock, rand Leith were to have one Member each. The
new system of Scotland was made to assimilate to what
had always been considered the most perfect part of the
English system—the county representation. The qualifi-
catiren in Scotland was to be 10/. a year for a voter, and
500/. a year for a seat in the House for a county Member.
Arrangements had been made to take the votes in conve-
nient places, so that no more than two day:. might be con-
council in the election ; and a provision had been intro-
shaved into the measure, to dissallow votes to be taken in .
county elections for the same-property as gave the right of
voting in burghs. He was :aware that at that time of the
night he must be brief in his observations; but he hoped
his explanation would be sufficient to show that no rea-
sonable objection could be offered to the motion of the
Noble Lord for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the re-
presentation of Scotland.
Sir W. RAE did not think the Learned Lord's expla-
nation perfectly satisfactory. He could see no good rea-
son why, when additional tnernbers were given to the ,
English counties, not only no additional members were
given to the Scotch counties, but two of the county mem-
bers were triton away and given to the burghs. Since
Government had adopted the rule of joining counties to-
gether, he was surprised that it had not been regularly
followed out ; and that Kinross had not been added to -
Fife, and Clackmannan to Stirling. What was the rea-
son, he should like to know, that the county of Caith-
ness, which was formerly joined with the county of Bute,
was now, for the first time, to have the right of sending
one Member to Parliament ? Why was it not added to
the county of Sutherland ? The Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site had declared that one of their objects in bringing for-
ward the present measure of Refocus was to get rid of
the nomination by Kers of members of that House. He
was not one who would wish to see the influence of Peer,
destroyed, which depended- on their large property to d
the benefits which they conferred on their in'eriors. Bt:t
if Caithness had been added to Sutherland, the influence
which a noble family exercised in the return of a Member
for the latter county would have been neutralized ; and the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought, therefore, to have joined
those two counties, in order to be consistent with their
own professions. lie objected entirely to the Bill, be-
cause it went to change the whole system of repre•enn-
lion in Scotland. That system, had, as yet, worked well ;
and he believed their was not an instance, of any person
being a representative of a Scotch county, who had not a
real interest in the laud. If may change were thought
necessary to be made in the eective franchise, the right of
voting should have been confined to the actual propneters
of land, and the mere occupiers of houses ought not to
have been introduced.

The LORD ADVOCATE stated that it was not the
mere occupiers, but the owners of houses who had the
right of voting.
Sir WILLIAM RAE said, that the occupiers were al-
most universally the owners of houses in Scotland, for that
very few were held on leasehold ; and, therefore, the pre-
position would have the effect of tiking the right of send-
ing Members to Parli anent out of the hands of the landed
interest. No complaint could be made against the present
system on the score of expense, because the representatives
of counties never expended any money except what they
paid out for the purpose of entertaining the electors alter
the election. No explanation had been given by the
Learned Lord why five boroughs of the eastern part of Fife
should lie disfranchised, and the right of voting taken from
6,000 persons. He agreed with the Learned Lord that no •
Scotchman could object to the granting of representatives
to Edinburgh and Glasgow ; but he (Sir W. Rae) wished
to know, why, if Leith wds to have a Member, the
flourishing town of Inverness, with a population of 20,000,
was not to he allowed one. He supposed that when the
Learned Lord talked of giving a Member to Edinburgh,
that the Learned Lord meant that city and its sulmueii,
If that were the case,• voters to the number of 12,900
would he admitted. What, then, would be the boasted
advantage, what the value to the shopkeeper of Edin-
burgh, of sharing a vote among so large a number of per-
sons? He conceived that time proposed alteration would
lead to touch bribery, disorder, and perhaps bloodshed.
The Learned Lord opposite had some knowledge of the •
stormy nature of elections in Scotland. If once Scotch-
men were brought together on those occasions, it was a rare
circumstance when their meeting did not end in fatal con-
sequences.—(" No, no.") Ile asked Scotch lembers
whether that was not the general rule? •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it •
was reasonable that the plan should be explamd, and that
the observations of the Learned Gentleman (Sir IV. Rae)
upon it should be heard ; but this haring t I ken place, he
trusted there would be no objection to the Bill bring now
introduced. The piers would go to Scotland, accompanied
by the Learned Gentleman's objections, and thus the en-
tire scheme would be understood and canvassed in that
country. Ile hoped that this would be considered suf-
ficient at present, and that gentlemen (several having risen
to address the House at the close of Sir W. Rae's speech)
would defer their remarks upon the Bill till the second
reading, when the discussion could be taken. It would be
extremely inconvenient to go into a debate on the plan at
this hour of the right.
Sir C. FORBES hegged to ask the Noble Lord whether
he thought it reasonable that the Reform Bill affecting this
country should be debated seven days on the motion for
its introduction, and that which applied to Scotland should
be disposed of in the same stage in an hour? He sug-
gested the propriety of the debate on the first reading of
the Bill beirig adjourned till to-morrow. He might here
observe, that the Lord Advocate's speech was any thing
rather than satisfactory.

Mr. KENNEDY said his lion. Friend opposite (Sir
C. Forbes) could confer no greater benefit on his country-
men than by allowing the Bill to go forth to the public in
an accurate shape, with as little delay as possible. This
object would be effected by offering no opposition to the
first reading.

Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought that an adjournment of
the discussion not unreasonable, if any gentleman con-
nected with Scotland wished to offer their opinions on the
Bill even in the first stage.
Sir C. FORBES rose to move the adjournment of the
debate, but gave way to _ _ _

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who expressed a hope that
gentlemen would consent to take the discussion on the se-
cond reading, which might be fixed for Monday or Tuesday.
After an observation from Me. Jon ssrosrx,
Sir G. CLERK recommended the Hon. Baronet to ac-
cede to the Noble Lord's proposition.
Sir G. WARRENDER wished the discussion to be de-
ferred till the Bill should be pridted.
Leave was then eiv.-n to bring in the B;P.
REFORM BILL—IRELAND.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that leave be given to bring
in a Bill to amend the representation in Ireland.
Mr. RUTHVEN said he had no wish to enibtrrass the
Government by expressing his objections to that part of
the measure affecting Ireland upon the occasion of the re-
cent debate, but he would now Say, that in order to af-
ford Ireland substantial justice, she should have, instead
of three new Members, 32.
After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. 'ACADIA,
Mr. Wysa, and Mr. A. DAWSON took part, leave was
given to bring in the Bill, it being understood that the
Scotch and Irish Reforms Bill would nut be discussed on
the satne day.

The Calico Duty Repeal Bill was reported, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.

Lord DUNCANNON gave notice that he would on
Friday next move for leave to bring in a Bill for opening
a new street between Waterloo-bridge and Charles-street,
Covent-garden.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition
from Nottingham, in favour of the plan of .Reform which
bad been submitted to the House by bis Alsivetqleitt
n ster:and another having a ainailer prayer. f
students of the inns of Court.-Adiourned Three o'cioek.