The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

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-SOUS in lee church, and o ZprratritilitiNgligeptur
dress( d ; making it difficult for others to Obtain placest-ria
and thereby there is almost a practical excliteinneof -We'
p ,00rer clas4ei.—(liear, hear.) That, I ag • , Ref4el"
IP
is a great misfortune ; but the remedy
ould not he by abolishing church-rates, butlay apply-
ing the funds the Church may be found to possess in
order to afford more room and better means by which
those classes may bo able to attend Divine worship.—
Hear, hear.) Now, agreeing that it is desirable, if a
mode ceula be pointed out, to make other provision with
respect to the repair of churches, I must say that I do
tee coneur with the Honourable Member for the 'Tower
Hamlets (Sir W. Clay) and others who have spokes,
who said they really felt ashamed, as members of the
Church, that these sums should be collected in the shape
of church-rates, from persons who dissent from the
Church. In the first place Ido not feel that there is
any shame on that account, because it is obvious that
whether with regard to the person who has bought land
ho hue beught it subject to this charge—(hoar)--or
whether with regard to the occupier holding under that
person, he has probably, before agreeing to pay his rent,
calculated how much will he the charge for the poor-rate,
what he will have to pay for highway-rate, and what for
church-rate, as part of the outgoings, by which his rent
would he diminished—(hoar, hear)—and therefore I
cannot think that there is any injustice in the demand
made upon him for the church-rate.—(Hear, hear.) But
neither can I agree that the Established Church is a
benefit solely to those who belong to it.—(Hear, hear.)
I have always considered, omitting the point of the par-
ticular form in which ehurch•rates are levied, which is
open to great objection, that the general ground upon
which church-rates can be justified is, that an Established
Church, end the Established Church of this country in
particular, is not a benefit solely to those who belong to
it, but is a great tribute and a great homage on the part
of the Legislature---(Much cheering, in whichjthe' next
few words of the Noble Lord were inaudible)—and that
the country would not be benefited, would not be improved,
but would be degraded by its abolition.—(Cheers.) If
that were not so, I know no argument for the abolition of
church-rates that would not be equally good for the abo-
lition of tithes. If'it is not true that the maintenance of
the Church is for the benefit of the whole community, I
know not how any of these compulsory charges can be
justified.—(Hear, beer.) Then, I say, it is very dan-
gerous to assent to a proposal of this kind, because,while
some argue that church-rates are a great practical evil,
and that in order to prevent dissensions and unseemly
quarrels, you had better put an end to these rates, others
contend that in point of principle they are not to be
justified, and that you should proceed at once to abolish
them for the sake of relieving all who dissent from the
Church from a compulsory payment. I say that this last
argument has in it much more than appears at first sight.
—(Hear, hear.) And therefore I should be sorry on
every account to agree to a resolution of the kind pro-
prosed by the Hon. Member (Mr. Trelawny). If any
Member shall ask leave to bring in a Bill proposing any
substitute for church-rate, I certainly should not oppose
the introduction of it. I could not vote for such a mea-
sure as the Hon. Member fur Oxford (Mr. Wood) pro-
poses; I opposed it when brought forward by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury. I think the reasons stated by
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) are conclusive
against it.—(Hear, hear.) I must oppose this resolution
as dangerous upon principle, and leading to consequence
which I think to be deplored.—(Hear.)
Mr. G. THOMPSON complained of the most dis-
couraging and significant speech of the Noble Lord; one
more calculated to chill the hearts of those who were
seeking to be relieved from these unjust impositions
could not have fallen from the Treasury bench.—(Hettr,
hear.) The resolution proposed by the Hon. Member
(Mr. Trelawny) only pledged the House to adopt " effec-
tual measures" for the abolition of a grievance; and,
when that resolution was passed, any Member migt sug-
gest an equitable substitute for this rate. That being
so, surely more encouragement might have been ex-
pected from that Treasury bench; for there voted for
leave to bring in a Bill to abolish church-rates and to
make other provision for the maintenance of the sacred
edifices of the country—(Hear)--the present Chancel-
lor of the Exchtquer, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary,
and Presideni, of the Board of Control, besides the Under-
Secretary for the Colonies, the Secretary to the Admi-
ralty, the Secretary for Ireland, and several others, now
members of the Governinens.—(Haar, hear.) If there
were not now Dissenters incarcerated for church-rates,
nor these disgraceful scenes to which reference had been
male, it was because there was a disposition to provide
the church fungi' by means more in accordance with the
feeling of the people; there was no diminution in the
hostility that ten or twelve years ago was manifested to
this impost. On the contrary, every hour that the mea-
sure now proposed was delayed there was a strengthen-
lag of hostility to the Establishment; and it would one
day compel Parliament to sweep away church-rates and
other ecclesiastical imposts. No substitute would be ac-
cepted by the Dissenters unless it freed them entirely
from the liability to keep the churches in repair.
Mr. HENLEY believed that the cause of the altered
state of matters in the country in relation to church-rates
was, that the law had been settled by the proper tribunals
and when the law was settled and known, the people of
England were inclined to obey it. He begged to thank
the Noble Lord (Lord .L Russell) for his manly decla-
ration.—(Cheors.) It was difficult to avoid contrasting it
with the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone.) Both agreeing that a large proportion of
the floors of omit churches were occupied so as to exclude
a great portion of the people from them; the Noble Lord
said the remedy was to increase the church accommo-
dation; while, as far as one could collect the sentiments
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he was ready to support
the motion of the lion. Member for Oxford (Mr. Wood),
and by way of opening the churches relieve Disenters
from paying church Tates.
Mr. GLADSTONE dissented from this statement.
Mr. HENLEY--The Right Hon. Gentleman said he
would support such a Bill, and it followed his declara-
tion about the flours of churches.—(No, no.) Well, if
he (Mr. Henley) had misunderstood the Right Hon.
Gentleman, of course he would pursue the remark no
further.—(Hear, hear.) As to the plea of conscientious
objection, how far was it meant to allow that? Many
had religious scruples about carrying on war; were they
to be relieved from maintaining the army and navy?—
(Hear.) We should find conscience very much en-
larged if those pleas were admitted; we should soon get
no taxes at all.—(llear, hear.) Did any of the gentle-
men who objected to pay church-rates ever say to their
landlord,—" I will pay you so much more rent if you
will pay the church-rate?"—(A laugh.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Oxford (Mr. Wood) said that there vs mild not be
the same objection to pay if the payment were volun-
tary; but surely conscience would just as much object in
that case.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COI3I)EN hoped that the opinion which the Hon.
Gentleman had just expressed with regard to Church-
men in this country did not apply to Oxfordshire. He
said there were Churchmen who would claim exemption
from the payment of church-rates because they had con-
scientious scruples against them, and that therefore the
fabric of the church would not be supported at all, be-
cause no ono would pay the tax. rMr. HENLEY—" No,
no!"] He certainly understood the Hon. Gentleman to
say that if Dissenters were allowed to be exempted from
payment of church-rates there was such elasticity of
conscience in the country that nobody would pay the
tax. He therefore thought lie had not misrepre-
sented the Hon. Gentleman; and he repeated, that he

hoped he did not on this matter truly represent the con-
science of Oxfordshire. lie began his speech and ended
it by complimenting the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government; but, it' the Noble Lord had pleased the
lion. Gentleman and those around him on this point, he
must bo prepared to please them on a great many other
questions, because he (Mr. Cobden) thought it was
likely he would lobe some of the approbation of those
who had formerly been his friends.—(Hear, hear.) The
lion. Gentleman stated that the law had now defined the
character of church-rates, and he went on with a tri-
umphant air, as if he was conscious he had the strong
arm of the law on his side, and was prepared to bring
down its might on those who were not prepared to pay.
But he counted without his host. It was true the courts
had decided that the minority could impose a rate; but
it was also decided that the majority could say how much
the rate should be.--(hear.) In Rochdale a meeting was
called lately to impose a rate, and the church was filled
with people almost to a man opposed to church-rates. It
was explained to them that they must levy a rate, but.
it was also explained that they had the power
o the
fixing the amount. One of the opponentsuse
as
was
rate proposed a farthing in the pound, hem
stated, it could never be collected.
in the pound; but
atihnlesaes well
ch
presentu
generation
their heads accordingly for a farthing
i indeed, it was
it
all 'held qp
they had never been able to colleecart)
This question,
not worth collecting.—alcoanae
ofh
pounds, shillings, and
after all, resolved itself
made
pence. It had been tt money question throughout;
the House, from
and he was not
H inclinedue m
Memberto let
ftehri s
Buckinghamshireo eeasieowvneerrpyeas
an
lother
h ancienter without
tphaar tt
adhse-sfrraoot from s
they had had
aides
of the House, t
reminding the it irom both
the laud--(Hear, hear)—that it was not a
charge upon
his friends around him
as an ex-
lusive burden, from which the land should be relieved.
c
—Meer, hear.) lie
local tax pressing upon the
(Mr. Cobden) could.not deny that
the cburch-rate was an ancient burden on property ;
but he did not put it along with tithe. Tithe was
a rateable property, but church-rate was a variable
tax.—(llear, hear.) Still, ho was prepared to admit
that it was a charge on property ; but it was a different
thing to put it on the Consolidated Fand and to re-
move the church-rates from Dissenters, on the ground of
conscientious scruples. These rates were originally
made for the purpose of maintaining the Christian re-
ligion, for supporting the church in which the Christian
religion was to be taught, But what was the ground of
exemption for Dissenters ? IS was that, being Chris-
tians, but having a different fort-I-aof doctrine and prayer
from the Christian church that was established, they
claimed to bo exempted from paying for the support of
these churches, because they had their own places of
worship to maintain for themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In
that sense it was not an exemption from church-rates for
the support of the Christian religion; it was merelLthat
they should not be compelled to pay two rates.--(Hear'
hear)—to support their own place of worship and
yours also. The great difficulty in the debate had
been—how to find a substitute for church-
rate. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had
told them, that if some Member would bring
forward a proposition for raising the rate in another
er
way he would give it his best consideration.
f Now,Oxford
had
lion. Gentleman the Member for the city
o
that could be brought be proposed a plan by which the money
could
raised—
the only just and consistent plan
raised by members of the
forward—ho left it to be Dissenters.
That
Church of England, and excluded
..
of settling this question. As a
was the proper way
Where member of the Church of Enan I d
f he was prepared to
pay his own church-rate, and not to ask it from Dis-
senters at alL—(flear, hear.) was the difficulty
of raising these rates? In the manufacturing districts
ilia majority of the churches were supported on the vo-
luntary principle. In Manchester there was, only
,one