The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-11 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Order of the Day for the adjourned debate having
been read,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose, and said that he
trusted he should not be considered presumptuous in hav-
ing an anxious desire to express his sentiments on this
very important subject. He had been entrusted to present
numerous petitions to the House from both Roman Catho-
lics and Protestants, praying the House to reject the amend-
ments of the Lords ; and he would take that opportunity
of expressing his sentiments upon those petitions ; not
having been allowed to do so at the time he presented them.
In doing 5o he most respectfully solicited indulgence from both
sides of the House. He differed from gentlemen on the Op-
position side, and he was not able to say that he approved of
the proposition of his Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.)
As it Protestant of the Established Church, he felt specially
called upon to take part in the debate on this occasion. He
admitted that ha belonged to a sect to whom he ascribed a
grew: portion of the evils of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not Aeon to make any personal allusions, but the means
taken by the Protestant interest to keep themselves up were
the cause of those evils. They had attempted to support
themselves by inflictions on their Catholic brethren, and by
depriving them of that influence they ought to possess. He
would only say that the true ground upon which Protestantism
ought to be supported, was by obtaining the friendship of all
persuasinms, and by admitting all to equal privileges and
power, This was the mode in which lie wished to support
Protestantism, 41Y1 he thought that this was the only sure
foundation on 1.04,4 it could be supported. These princi-
ples he had maintained out of the House—to the
maintenance of those principles ha la'as indebted for his scat in
that fjouse, and lie never desired to maintain principles out of
Parliamettt which he did :not wish to enforce In that House.
The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the course pursued by
that House—.-on this ticcagion, and particularly on the oc-
casion of moving an amendment to the Address.
The proposition of the Noble Lord, in leis opinion, admitted.
the principle of the Lords' Amendments, 'because it con-
sented to the abolition of three-fourths of the Corporation;
of Ireland, and if Corporation,,; Ivere useful in large towns,
they ware equally so in small ones. it was on these grounds that
Le objected to the proposition of the Noble Lord.—( Hear.)
1-10 had joined in tiie agitation in Ireland with the full inten-
tion af carrying out full measures of relief. He called upon
the Houses to look at the policy of the compromise with respect
to England. Was it good policy to allow the Lords to make
such havoc with e Dill sent up to them, after full and mature
deliberation'? This principles of the Bill had been discussed
and adopted, but warn new no more ;then the Commons
p
ought to insist upon their ownrinciples being fully carried
out, or postpone the Bill for a thine, Would the Irish
hurt their cause in Scotland or in England if they were
to defer their relief for a time, so that they might obtalin equal
justice with their [chow enlintrymen ? It was said that the
of this Bill would destroy die Administration—that he did
ground of affording justice to the people.
not telicve, for the supporters of the goiTliquent gave their
support on this
He did not wish to of or any disrespect to his Majesty's Go-
vernment ; he thought that Ireland was indebted to the Noble
Lord (Russell) for the sentiment ‘..o;;;;ajned in his speech ;
but tia felt bound to state that ii; was his in-
tention,/ whenever the question came on for discussion,
as to what towns ti.vig to have municipal charters,
and what not, he would take tio pD;ytiert of the House upon
th 9 ()mission of certain towns which in Ii npinjnn ought to
have antyters. He would conclude by thanking the figup
for the indulge-ince 1)?°Y had shown him.
Dr. LEFRO li cook‘i 44, avoid expressing his admiration of
the straight-forward and manly it.;_c.;,7;ly of the speech of the
11", opntlenaan who had just sat down, 6.41'0 could not
help 004 tkift after that speech it wouill loc coip
inconsistent on the ihs4 i. fi f the Hon. Gentleman to vote for
Noble Lord (Russell).
proposehemigdht licY sallaim m
the vote i i; pepourable
theo
He
thought alterations
that
Otangernan on this occasion.— (" No," from Mr. S. Crawforst.si
he ;cc,,4,4 0.4.0 join in the cry of—Justice for England, and
England and iiictitig4ii
f" 4a44.4 gr IrPlor upon the same principle upon which
e,i4. hs4ted for. But the value
of that call, from eithei 54.0 &f, i-ie itofig, nest de end
90 till meaning of the words " Ireland and inWg.;....' tf ,41.
h'Ttt.„l-Lnen oppposite meant by Ireland, the whole popula (Bh,
'l"‘ ,tt,9 inilge in that term not merely the numerical majority
of V" PAW flatt*lies, but the minority in numbers, lie
then he
would atirntt, of 7.l.4;',At;ti, ;,ift gill a number not inferior in
wealth, rank, influenci, 44401P,TLW ;•I•lii?;.'ehn..ce'
Was bold 'enough to say that ttte iliee.S44; NOir,CW4 0 ;lis
Napsfyi Government would . not do justice to rfctatid.

The reconstruction of English and Scotch Corporations
was not protested against by any very large portion of
the people.—(Cries of " Hear.") On the contrary, the
people were decidedly most anxious is favour of the
alteration, but in the case of Ireland there was a very es-en_
tial difference. The Protestants in that Awry had the Cor-
porations in their own hands. He for his part did not tsish
for the continuance of any exclusive system ; but he equally
deprecated the transfer of the powers the Protestants now
held, to another exclusive body, viz, the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. He put it to the House whether such a course of
legislation would be fair dealing towards the Protestants,
and whether so large a portion of his Majesty's subjects
whose feelings and interests were so deeply concerned in the
question should be overlooked. What w 25 the measure of the
house of Lords? Did it not do more justice than the Bill of
that House? Did not the Bill of the Commons give all cor-
porate property to the Catholics in an indirect manner? The
House of Lords' Bill provided for all that was essential for the
public good, and they had consulted justice to Ireland mare than
did the Bill of the Ministers—the corporate property wag to be
applied to the good of all classes of the King's subjects in Ireland.
He complained that this Bill would invest in the 101. house-
holders, who were Roman Catholic, the power of electing
Town Councils and Commissioners. Was this, he would
ask, doing justice to the Protestants of Ireland ? The House
would not dare to do this directly.—( Heat, hear.) They
would not give this power to the Roman Catholics co nomine ;
but the Bill would and must have this effect. He e Intended

that the measure sent down from the House of Lords wascal-
culated to do full justice to all classes of his Majesty's subjects

in Ireland.

Mr. GROTE participated in the feelings expressed that
night by the Hon. Member for Dundalk, and should have
much preferred the rejection at once of all the Lords' amend-
ments, unless there happened to be some amongst them which
might appear to be of use, if embodied in the Bill. It was
seldom of much good to compromise their own opinions.
Concession in this case did not seem to produce conciliation.
If ever there was a Bill which required that they should discuss
with freedom the amendments of the Lords, it was a Bill such as
this. It was used in such a manner by the other House as no Bill,
he believed, ever had been used by them before. They not only
altered the preamble, but they adopted a principle which had
been solemnly rejected by that House. It would be an ever-
lasting disgrace to that House if they agreed to give up the
principle. Much allusion was made to expressions said to have
been used by a Noble Lord in the other House. Perhaps it
was not an advisable course to dwell too much upon language
uttered by an individual in the course of debate. In the pre-
sent instance, however, the language said to have been used
was actually embodied in the Lords' amendments.—( Hear.)
They were quite in conformity to the sentiments expressed.
The general objection to this Bill was, that it would lead to
agitation. It did not appear to him that a well-organised mu-
nicipal system had any such tendency.—( Hear.) When men
were debarred from the management and superintendence of
their own affairs, they were more likely to busy themselves
about public affairs, and to act in a spit it of agitation. Not
only was the question of municipal institutions involved here,
but the question also whether all classes of his Majesty's sub-
jects in Ireland, no matter what their religious persuasion,
' were to be treated on the same footing as they were in Eng-
land and in Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) By these amendments
the Lords pronounced the people of Ireland to be un-
fit for and to be unworthy of electing municipal councils.
This was in fact equivalent to proclaiming them unfit and un-
worthy to send Members into that House. To say that the
people of Ireland were worthy to elect RepriVentatives in Par-
liament, yet could not safely be entrusted with the election of
town councils, appeared to him a most glaring inconsistency.—
(Hear.) The question they, had now to decide upon was
the comparative merits of the original Bill, and the Bill as
amended by the Lords. He did not wish for a conflict with
the other House off arliament, but if it must come, it could
not arise upon a more noble cause. At present both Houses
differed not alone upon this, but upon other great public mea-
sures. It would be far better to have an open collision than
such secret reluctancy on the part of the Lords to concur in
any measures of public importance sent up to them. If the
"louse of Commons and the House of Lords continued thus
to take different views of all public measures, would it not be
better to enter at once upon the contest ? The blame of hav-
ing excited it would not lay with them. The two Houses
could not remain very long in their present relative position.
Mr. RICH ARD S should give his vote in favour of the
wiser and more temperate measure which had received the
sanction of the other House of Legislature, and which in that
House bad been so eloquently advocated by the Right Hon.
Baronet—the leader—the admirable leader—of that side of the
House.—(A laugh from the Ministerial benches.) Hon.
Gentlemen might laugh if they pleased, but perhaps ere long
they would find occasion to laugh on the other side. What
was the fact with regard to this Bill ? His Majesty's Minis-
tors had come down to that House, and had proved to the
satisfaction of the House that the Corporations of Ireland
had not tended hitherto to promote her peace, nor con-
tribute to her welfare, because they had been in the
hands of an exclusive party; and in order to remedy the
evil they wisely proposed, as the best mode of conferring equal
rights and privileges on all classes of the community in Ire-
land, to take those municipal privileges away front the party
who had hitherto enjoyed them, and transfer them to another
party equally exclusive, although of opposite politics and
contrary principles. Was this calculated to promote peace
and prosperity in Ireland? No; and, so far from seeing any
reason to find fault with the other House of Parliament for the
course which it had adopted on the present occasion, he
thought they had acted alike with that political wisdom and
cool determination for which they were so justly celebrated.—
( Oh, oh, from the Ministerial benches.) And was it for this
that they were to be denounced ; was it for exercising their
just rights and privileges that the Hon. Member for the city
of London was to call on the House and the Government to
appeal to the people of England ? What was it the Hon.
Member meant by appealing to the people ? He could not
suppose, from the character and station of that Hon. Member,
from his prudence and his foresight, that he would tell the
people of England that the House of Peers denied equal jus-
tice to Ireland; that it denied to Ireland that municipal
government which it had given to England.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He could not suppose that the Hon. Mem-
ber would appeal to the people of England in terms like these.
He confessed lie was surprised at the course which the Hou.
Member had taken.—( Hear, hear.) What was the object of
this Bill ? The sole purpose was to increase the party of the
Government, or rather the party of the Hon-and Learned
Member for Kilkenny, in Ireland ; it was to give him the no-
mination, not of forty, but of sixty Members. These were
the real objects of the Bill, these the objects which the other
House had wisely and manifestly defeated ; and he, as an
independent Member of Parliament—(" Oh 1" from the Mi-
nisterial Benches)—in the name of the people of England--
(" Oh, oh 1" from the same benches)—yes, and in the name
of the people of Ireland, too, gave them his hearty thanks for

their wise and bold determination to resist the extension of a
'system of indirect nomination, utterly at variaace with the
principles of the Reform Bill—a nomination, indeed, which
might almost be called direct nomination, since it was the
result of intimidation of the most direct and avowed eha-
racter.—( Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord and the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny take a word of advice gorn him, Thgt
Hon. and Learned Member and his Majesty's Government
went along very well, on all-fours, at presew,—(Laughter)—
but the time was anxiously wished for by the latter when they
should be enabled to do wilhout tile Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber's assistance, and the moment that time arrived they would
cast him and his supporters aside without remorse ; and tell
them—what they felt at this moment—that they hated them,
though they used them as their tools—pro hac vice.—( Hear,
hear.) It was almost impossible, in speaking on this subject,
not to take some notice of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
whose peculiar connection with Ireland seemed to identify him
with this question—the Hon. and Learned Member for Kil-
kenny, who still went on in his course, regardless of all cir-
cumstances, except, indeed, his own, of which he took good
care,—(A laugh.) The 11011. Member then deprecated the
course of agitation pursuod by the lion. and Learned Meruhef
for Kilkenny, as obnoxious to the peace and prejudicial to the
true interests of Ireland.

Mr. W YSE defended at some length the course pursued
by his Majesty's Ministers. It was absurd to say that Ireland
could exist without municipal institutions. No country in
Europe was without them. Go to Sicily—go to Naples—go
to France—to Sweden—to. Denmark—to Prussia—even to

Russia--ever. in the States the most despotic municipal insti-
tutions for the self-government of the people in the various
towns and districts, would be found invariably to exist. Ire-
land could no longer be refused these institutions. They
were called for not more by the voice of that country than by
the universal voice of Europe. He felt no fear for the ulti-
mate result of the present contest; for, although he strongly
protested in the name of Ireland against all attempts-at unne-
cessary convulsion, yet he felt convinced that should the con-
vulsion come, the people must eventually be successful. In
the history of the empire, it bad been recorded that Kings
had been dethroned, and that Lords bad been devoted use-

less—but he found that the Commons of England were im-
mortal.—(Cheers.)
Mr. PRA E D gave the Hon. Member for Waterford credit
for sincerity in the views which he had expressed to the
House. They had been told by the Hon. Member that if the
measure of the Government was rejected the cry for municipal
reform would not cease, but it would be coupled with a cry
for reform of the House of Lords, and the Hon. Member had
expressed himself on that subject in terms loud and strong.
To gentlemen of the country to which the lion. Rubber be.
longed—much on account of a prevailing feature in the na-
tional character, and partly on account of a warmth of feeling
which, on such a subject as. this, was to be expected from
them-,lt was ppogetled that they should use stronger language
than might be expected tp filll from other Members of that
House. But from an English Member lie (Mr, 131.42 d) had
Noked for much solid and grave argument AO 4 question which
confass4diy i4V4lVeil cOIIstKINEINOS to importftot to the national
welfare. The lion. Member for London, however, had dis-
appointed those expectations. . He would submit to the Hon.
Member (Mr. Grote) who had tondescended, in discussing
5, gly,fp constitutional question, to use language such as
no-Enghs4 +tp4 8f tlitit 149.13,ie oiiiiht. IR 1i
-ttv9 10
on such a subjeCt—who haft coiledidlerfolulq o 1-01:45 a
herd of swine, and had alluded to-a klOtte and Learned
kt,,,,q. as their driver—he submitted tq thqt ' Honourable
ientbo" whqini: 540, 1,, irtcstiqii 64kbit to g brap,,t,-;ht Ir.
fore the fieiise 'inladeiale such ar'tlia2--ivlieoe3rlituer
the question ought not to be litiltighe•foriard'in a speCific and
Parliamentary form, and not in a manner calculated to excite
. , .
e p4t,it'a U 4 prejudices of the people,
t
ifi4.64,tirq g ;fC?lilit;ei' el tlitri"ii't• Ci4Pi• ili ll'4l uf '9t".-
ouse?..--( Hear, !TAP: -. . Mit tii 'fiod.i' :igilhier It Warei.z
and in language
ford had said that the cry for reform of the House of Lords
might be expected, if this measure was refused. Then it be-
came proper that they should procqed to consider what was
tae Fi:gl position in which that flous3 was placed as regarded
,
lkttsQ gpf i4Q1:44, pvo a 119cogs4ry .ing-oclie4.4t iu Ole