The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-16 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 16, 1831.

SECOND EDITION.

MUN
,OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

IMPERIAL PA IW AM ENT

THIS EVENING.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

The Loin CHANCELLOR took hie seat oil the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.

KINNAIRD'S DIVORCE BILL.

On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, this
Bill was read a third time and passed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR postponed the Committee
on the Bankruptcy Bill to Friday se'nnight, on account of
the indisposition of Lord Lyndhurst.
The Earl of ORFORD. seeing the Noble Lord at the
head of his Majesty's Government in his place, wished
to take that opportunity of asking a f-w questions relative
to our posture with Franceand Belgium. He wished to know
if the French army was at Belgium to uphold the pr tomlr
agreed to by the King of the Netherlands, or to uphold the
18 articles accepted by Belgium, or the Constitution
sworn to by its present King ; but the principal question
which he wished answered was, whether the French
army would retreat, as soon as the Dutch army retired to
its own frontiers.

Earl GREY once more protested against such questions
being brought forward in such a manner, without notice
having been given. In answer to the Noble Ears's question,
he (Earl Grey) begged it to be understood he would
not be answerable for any acts of the French Government.
The French army had marched for the purpose of repelling
the attack of the Dutch upon Belgium, and if there was any
virtue in pledges, this country had a right to expect that
immediately upon that object being accomplished they
would return. With respect to the fortresses, it
had not yet been determined which of them were
to be dismantled, and the Noble Earl must therefore excuse
fling from answering his questions in a more particular
manner.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was greatly "relieved
by the answer which his Noble Friend behind had elicited
from the Noble Earl opposite, with respect to the retreat
of the French army.
The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that the re-
treat of the French army did not depend upon speeches
either in that House or in France, but upon documents
signed and agreed to in a regular manner.
Earl GREY said the Noble Duke had anticipated
him in what he had intended to say, and be
would only observe, that he felt himself bound by
what he had already said in that House, not
only as a Minister but as a man of honour. He deprecated
the bringing for ward of such discus,ions in the present state
of the negociations. In his opinion no course could be
better chosen than that pursued by Noble Lords on the
other side of the House, for the interruption and throwing
of difficulties in the way of the completion of those nego-
ciations.

(LErr sITTING. )

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Shortly after Three o'clock the SPEAKER entered the
House.

Mr. HUNT presented a petition froth the unemployed
carpenters and joiners of the metropolis, agreed to at a
public meeting. They stated that upwards of 12,000 car-
penters in the metropolis were unemployed, chiefly on ac-
count of the use of machinery and cast iron in building houses
in lieu of wood. They prayed the House to vote a sum of
money for the erection of public buildings as a means of
giving them employment, and they also prayed for an ex-
tensio❑ of the elective franchise.

Sir C. BURRELL asked the Hon. Member if he was
aware that a great part of the di,tress of which the
titioners complained was caused by combinations among
the workmen ?—(Hear.) He knew that many well disposed
persons were willing to work, but they were prevented
from getting employment, unless it was at the rate of 30s.
a week. If that were true, it was preposterous for these
men to ask for a vote of money to erect public works and
thereby give them employment.
Mr. HUNT said the petitioners had informed him that
they were opposed to all such combinations as those al.
laded to by the Hon. Member.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUNT then presented a petition from certain in-
habitants of Bith, complaining of the extravagance in the
public expenditure, and praying for a reduction in the
standing army and public salaries, and for a repeal of
certain taxes.—Ordered to be printed.

The HON. MEMBER then moved for copies of certain
resolutions and regulations of the Magistrates of the
county of Southampton, assembled at Winchester, in
August, 1822, relative to paupers.—Ordered.
Mr. SHELL presented a petition from the Roman
Catholics of the town of Newtownsinitti, in the county
of Galway, praying fur a reduction of the stamp duty for
persons obtaining their freedom front :3/. to 1/. Also
several petitions front various parts of Ireland, against the
grant to the Kildare-street Society.
npai
Lord MILTON rose to present a petition which he
had intended to present last Session, but was prevented
by the dissolution of Pal liarnent. It was front the Lord
Mayor, Aldermen, Sheriff, and citizens of Dublin, praying
stliluent Ilouse
residentto einstaDbulibslirin,
a
Boardrs
of u
the purpose od Comtsis-
ing and developing the resources of Ireland. The peti.
tioners stated, that the depression and distress that prevailed
in Dublin was not limited to that cily, but extended over
the country generally ; that the real nature and
extent of the distress was not generally understood by
this House, and that their only mode of remedying
those evils was by establishing a Board of Commissioners,
for the purpose of developing the resources of the country
and making them applicable to the existing distress. The
Noble Lord stated, that in his opinion it was extremely
advantageous that there should he an intervening body
between the people and the Government of that country,
who could report the result of their labours to this House.
That was, in his opinion, the best mode of making this
House acquainted with the true state of Ireland.
Mr. GRATTAN said this subject was one of very con.
siderable importance, and well deserved the attention of
the House. A Boatel of Commissioners, sitting in Dub-
lin, and inquiriug into matters connected with the country,
would enable the House to obtain more satisfactory infor-
Illation relative to the true state of Ireland than
w hat it at the present time possessed. Irish ques-
tions were not sufficiently understood when they
became the subject of discussion in this House. The silk
trade, now so depressed, and the Irish fisheries, Now
almost wholly neglected, as well as various other 'natters,
would come under the cognizance of such a Board, and
the best means would immediately present themselves to
view, to effect great and important improvements.--
The inquiries made by such a Board would be extremely
serviceable to the Legislature when legislating for Ireland--
(llear)—and the House would be relieved from a great
deal of that discussion upon Irish affairs which so often
now occupied the attention of this House.—(Hear, from
Alr. O'Connell.) As the Board would cost the country
nothing, and as great benefit was expected to result from
its establishment, he implored the House to give it at least
a trial.

Mr. CONOLLY said as the city of Dublin at present
had no representatives -he would support the prayer of the
petition. Irish subjects too often came before this House
in an undigested shape, which would not again occur if a
Board of Commissioners was established. The Hon. Member
complained of the evils which resulted from the frequent
change of Secretaries of the Irish Government, each en-
tertaining different opinions and views of the state of Ire-
land. As it would cost the country nothing, he would
strongly recommend a trial of a Board of Commissioners,
which, at least, would satisfy the country. Much of the
useless discussion of Irish subjects,with a lack of information,
and many of the impracticable, not to say nonsensical,
plans that were suggested to this House, would be pre-
vented by the subjects undergoing a proper inquiry by the
Commissionel s.

Mr. WYSF was so deeply impressed with the import-
ance of this subject, that he had intended to propose last
session the establishment of such a Board. His propa-
suion was, that several Boards be appointed, and various
subjects entrusted to each Board. There were many 'Tb"
jecti upon which this House was frequently occupied,
without having sufficient knowleage of the circumstances
before it. The local interests of Ireland would be better
entrusted to a local Board, leaving the greater or imperial

interests to be referred to this House. Local administra-
tors of local interests were found of great service on the
continent, and he trusted they would, in accordance with
the prayer of this petition, be established in Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not allow this opportunity
to pass without saying a few words upon the subject.
The testimony given by the petitioners as to matter of
fact was altogether irresistible. Tio y could have no
motive to exaggerate the distress, the extreme—he
would say the almost indescribable distress of all classes and
grades in Ireland ; indeed their party feelings, if they had
any such, would lead them to the contrary extreme. Under
this state of things it wis not to be wondered at that the
Irish Members, more frequently perhaps than others,
thought convenient or becoming., had been obliged to come
before the House. They were compelled to do it. One
thing he could not avoid saying, and that was, that
these demands for Boards in Ireland were just symptom-
atic of the very general, if not universal,• desire for
local legislatures. It was idle to talk of Boards, the people
wanted local arrangements in Ireland, to supply local in-
formation for legislature. The Noble Lord, he was well as-
sured, slaw as well as he (Mr. O'C. ), the inefficiency of that
House to legislate for Ireland. Nothing could prevent a san-
guinary convulsion throughout the country unless there were
such a thing as a local Legislature ; the establishment Of cor-
porations in Dublin was now demanded, and that proved
not indeed the wisdom of the plan, but the dire necessity
of the situation of Ireland. The petition was drawn up
with very considerable talent, and he would support it.
Colonel TORRENS thought that the establishment of
such Board was necessary, not merely to shew what might
be done, but to shew what should cot be done. As to
domestic legislature he held that it was impossible
for two countries to have separate legislatures, and remain
in permanent political union. If there was to be a do-
mestic legislature in Ireland, there should be also one in
Scotland, another in England, and another in Wales,—a
federative union between all, and one Imperial Parliament.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Ireland) said he would
support the petition. Much distress certainly, he admit-
ted, existed in Ireland, but then he could not trace
it, with some, to the union of that country with England,
that union had neither caused nor in any degree aggra-
vated the distress ; and those who advocated the repeal of
that union took a course which would tend very much to
the destruction of both countries.

Lord MILTON deemed it most unwise in the Irish na-
tion to indulge in golden visions of future manufactur-
ing prosperity. Whatever might be the partialities of
Irishmen, he would say that it was to agriculture and
not to manufacture that Ireland was to look for prosperity,
and agricultural improvements could be promoted only by
the private farmers and land-owners of that country.
Mr. O'CONNELL admitted that England had advan-
tages fur manufacturing, for skill, and every thing else ;
Ireland would not be behind any part of the world.
Lord EBRINGTON would not set up his know-
ledge of Ireland against that of the Honourable and
Learned Member who had just spoke; but he must
be allowed to say that he considered the distress of Ireland
general, and with respect to Dublin he did not believe that
the distress existing there had increased latterly.
Sir GEORGE ROSE made a few observations which
were inaudible in the gallery.
Lcrd MILTON could not agree with what had been
stated with respect to the introduction of our laws
into Leland. Ile thought one of the greatest benefits that
could be conferred upon the Irish would be to place another
description of food within their reach than that which
they at present had, and the introduction of Corn Laws
would have that effect.

The petition Was then read.
Mr. TALBOT presented a petition from Swansea,
praying for no alteration in the clause in the Reform Bill
which affected them.

Mr. BLAKENEY presented a petition from Carlow,
praying to be allowed a drawback on Malt Duties.
Mr. BALFOUR presented a petition from Haddington
against the use oftarnolasses in distillation.
• Mr. O'CONNELL presented several petitions from dif-
ferent parts of Ireland against the grants to the Kildare-
street Society. Also a petition from Graig, praying
that the Government would take the Church property
in Ireland under its nwn immediate management, and that
there might be an equal distribution among all classes of
clergymen.
On the motion that the petition be brought up,
Mr. CRAMPTON denied some of the statements made
a few nights ago with respect to the Castle-Pollard affair.
It hadleen then stated that Protestants had been selected to
serve on the jury, and that Catholics had been rejected, in
consequence of instructions having been given by the Law
Officers of the Crown to that effect. He could as
sure the House that no such instructions had been given,
nor was any man challenged on going into the box on
account of his being a Catholic.
After some few observations from Mr. O'CoNNELL in
reply, the petition was read.
Mr. SHELL certainly meant not to occupy too
much time on this subject. Ife thought his Right
Hon. Friend, the Irish Solicitor-General, had taken up
this subject with a disproportiona.e warmth. The trium-
phant
that out of twelve Kilkenny
pliant defence of that Right lion. and Learned
Gentleman
" %a
Gentleman. smiled, but he ought
s a Roman Catholic ! The Right
Hon. r
J
s:iail:Oi Learned r
it no laughing subject; and instead of persist-
:orconsider
n
t
persist-
ing in a system calculated to generate abuse, it ought to
be the decided intention of the Government to put au
end to it. And as the Right Hon. Gentleman had the
management of a Jury Bill just now, it was to be hoped
that be would introduce clauses to correct the recurrence
of such infamous practice. Ordered to be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that to-mor row he should
moved that a copy of the report made to his Majesty's Go-
vernment of the Maghara transactions, which occurred on
the 19 h of December, be laid on the table.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of Carrick-on-Suir, praying that the yeomanrynight be disarmed.
NEW WRIT.

Lord STOII
aMi‘OieNmTbemr
for ovedtie thatiboioua, tig•rhitumf.Aighrmt
aigsshu.e for
the election of
a sSuiir,
jeGet. CdeLeEpilytKaffeccatliled ng
tthhee attention of the H
privileges
. fpalicia
tunseentt.o
He alluded to the delay which had taken place in returns.
Therit issued for the election of Members for the borough
Great vGrinisbv. The writ had been issued on the 2d inst.
and the election was completed on the 10th; and yet,
although the two gentlemen elected came to town on Friday
to take the oaths and their seats, and had attended for that
purpose on Saturday, yesterday, and to-day, it appeared that
no return had been made by the Sheriff. He was certain
that the House would agree with him that there was no
question to which they ought to look with greater jealousy
than that the number of Members should be complete,
and for that purpose various Acts had been passed. But with
regard to the returning officers' being compelled to make im •
mediate returns to write, the law was considerably re-
laxed. He conceived it a great breach of the privi-
leges of the House, if a returning officer delayed making
a return one hour after the election. Upon enquiring, he
found that the last occasion on which :he House took
notice of the delay in the return of a writ was in the
year 1806, when the Sheriff of the city of Water-
ford neglected to return a Member. On that occa-
sion the Deputy Clerk of the Crown had been or-
dered to attend the House, and to state whether any re-
turn had been made from the Sheriff. The Hon. Baronet
should adopt that course and moved accordingly.
Lord ALTHORP agreed with the Right Hon. 13 ironet,
that it was not merely the duty of the House to see that
its Members were complete, but still more its duty to
prevent any trick.—(Hear, hear.) The Clerk of the
Crown-office having
attended at the bar, was examined, and
stated that no return had been made up to this morning
from Great Grimsby.
Sir G. CLERK should follow up the course pursued in
the Waterford case, by moving that the Sheriff of Lin-
colnshire and the returning officer for Great Grimsby
be ordered to attend the bar of the House on Friday next.
After a few words from Lord ALTIIORP, Sir TIIONIAS
FielaaraNTLE, and Sir JOHN WRCTTESI.rY, the question
was agreed to.
Mr. KENNEDY begged leave to ask the Lord
Advocate a question relating to some occurrences,
which, on the 12th of July last, had agitated that
part of the country with which he was connected,
he meant the county of Ayr. The disturbances to
which he alluded had been the cause of much alarm ;
lives had been lost, and certain persons had been in-
dicted for their participation in them.—(hear, hear.)
It was rumoured that interferences unknown to the law,