The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-21 00:00:00

THE HOP DUTIES.

In reply to a question from Mr. HENRIES, expressing
a desire to remove a doubt which seemed to pervade the
minds of the hop growers as to the indulgence being this
year allowed which had usually been granted for the
payment of the duties,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he felt much obliged to his Right Hon. Friend for
give
eintgo poulet
itnhcieuqiruyeswtiaosn.thaTthewohnielyh anhsewehratrigtihveen lastcould
night. In answer to that question, he had stated that
there would be no remission of duty by the agents of
Government unless by his (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's) personal and express authority. He might
further observe, for the information of the proprietors
in the hop-growing counties that he did intend to allow
the payment of the duties which were usually duo in
May to b 9 postponed till some day about Michaelmas,
but what day he could not now exactly state.
An HON. MEMBER trusted that it would be some day
after Michaelmas, to allow of the receipt of dividends
and the settlement of accounts.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Per-
haps I had better be allowed to name my own day; but
I may say it will ba one that will best consist with the
convenience of those who have to pay the duties.
NATIONAL ECONOMY.

Mr. HUME said, that seeing from a paper which
had been issued to day that the national expenditure was
still upwards of 269,0001. beyond the revenue of the
country, he was desirous to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man at the head of the Exchequer, whether any mea•
sures were in progress for effecting that reduction in
the public expenses which he had led the House to
expect.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
quite ready to allow that there was a seeming excess
of expenditure over the revenue, which in roun 1 figures
amounted to about 270,00014 but, on the other hand, he
had to observe that a full investigation into the several
items would not lead to unsatisfactory results. For al-
though there was this excess, there was also a saving in
the Irish expenditure to the extent of 390,000/., an ex-
penditure which had been regularly incurred for the last
three years, and there was the agreeable fact, that in
consequence of this and other savings, the yearly
balance-sheet of the country would show an amount of
more than half a million to the credit side of
the account better than he could have anticipated when
he last addressed the House upon the subject. In
addition to that, certain sums of large amount were
charged against this year's account, Which ought fairly
to be charged to the next year. Then such had been
the influence of the blockade of the northern ports on
the trade that the revenue had been much injured by it.
Mr. HUME said that his question did not so much
refer to the revenue as to the decrease of the expendi-
ture of the country. What he wanted to know was,
whether any of those measures for retrenchment, which
had been promised, were in progress.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—His
Hon. Friend must know that there were already mea-
sures before the House for effecting a reduction of
1,400,00(1/. a year.
Mr. HERMES could not well see how the blockade
of the northern ports could effect the revenue, at least
to any extent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that surely his Hon. Friend must perceive that the re-
venue depended greatly upon the general trade of the
country.
SICILY.

Mr. BANKES wished to draw the attention of the
Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary to a portion of a
letter, addressed by the Noble Lord, to the Hon. Wil-
liam Temple, at Naples, on the 26th of January, 1849.
The paragraph ran thus :—" It is possible that the
Neapolitan Government may complain to you of this trim •
section (assisting the Sicilians with arms), on the
ground that, although no direct assistance was furnished
by the Government to the Government of Sicily, yet
facilities were afforded to the contractor, who had en-
gaged to supply that Government with arms, and in case
that representation should be made, you will say that
the authority in question was given inadvertently, that
Government regrets what has occurred, and that a simi-
lar facility will be given to the contractor for furnish-
ing the Government of Sicily with arms, while the
differences between Sicily and the kingdom of Naples is
unsettled." Now, first of all, he wished to ask the Noble
Lord whether this letter was to be taken as the letter,
which he presumed it to be, sent by the Noble Lord with
the authority of the united Government of the Crown;
and, secondly, he must be allowed to ask him at what
time it was that the insurgents of Sicily were recog-
nised by the Government of Great Britain as being
the Sicilian Governmeatk—At what time it so com-
menced to recognise them, and up to what time did
that recognition continue.
Lord PALMERSTON said, in answer to the
question of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man, he had to state that the letter was sent
not only by the authority of the united Govern-
ment of the kingdom of Great Britain, but by the
authority of the united Government of the
United Kingdom.—(Bear, hear, and a laugh.) With
regard to the second question, he had to•state that the
existence of a Government in Sicily, acting and
administering the affairs of that island, was acknow-
ledged by the Government as early as the beginning
of last year, when the kingdom of Naples requested
Lord Minto to place himself in communication with that
Government for the purpose of effecting ea amicable
settlement of the differences between the two parties,
and from that time to the present Government had re-
cognised that as the Government of Sicily.
Mr. BANKES would be glad to know if her Majesty's
Government recognised the Sicilian Government as dis-
tinct and separate from the Government of the kingdom
of Naples ?
Lord PALMERSTON said there was no doubt of the
fact that there was a Sicilian Government for the go•
vernment of the affairs of Sicily, and that there was a
Government de facto in Sicily it was impossible to deny,

FRENCH PbSTAGt:
An HON. MEMBER asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether any proposal had been made by the Go-
vernment of France to reduce the rate of postage be-
tween France and this country ; and if so, whether
there would be any objeztion to lay the correspondence
which may have taken pace on :tubjt Ae sec
bOvre the
House,

Lord J. RUSSELL said a negotiation was now going
on in refertnce to this subject, but the correspondence
had not yt.t been brought to a close.

CEYLON.

Mr. MACGREGOR, seeing the lion. Gentleman the
Under,Seeretary fur thelollies in his place, he wished
to ask him if it was true that the Government of Ceylon
wore about to establish a Government debt, and that they
intended to take the funds of the savings' banks
and other public funds for the immediate use of the
Executive.

Mr. HAWES said there was no foundation for the
report, though it was true that such a r 4 pin had got
abroad in Ceylon.
SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, and on the vote of 350,000/ on account of the
Navy Estimates for the maintenance cf artificers and
labourers in the naval establishments being read,
Mr. FITZROY submitted to the House that there was
no plausible pretext fur pursuing that course at the pre-
sent moment, and that it was extremely undesirable to
take those grants out of the ordinary course.
Mr. HUME said it would be desirable to know what
proportion of each vote was now to taken. He should
object to any further vote of that kind, for it was a❑
invasion of the ordinary practice.

Mr. WARD said he had no desire to shirk any dis-
cussion on the subject.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was understood to say he
objected to taking those grants out of the ordinary course.
He would DOC state the reasons then for taking that
course, but he should do so on a future occasion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made an
observation, wholly inaudible, explanatory of the reason
why the grant had been taken out of the ordinary course.
Mr. BERRIES did not understand the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he per•
fectly agreed with his Hon. Friend Mr. Fitzroy, who
had raised an objection of that kind. He thought this
was a mo,,t unfavourable moment for passing this vote
on account, considering that some greater vigilance ought
to be exercised with respect to the public expenditure
before votes of this description were allowed on account.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, that althuugh he thought
this course objectionable, yet under the circumstances
it was the best course to be pursued at the present
moment.

Captain PECHELL thought the course proposed in
voting money on account an extremely inconvenient
one. Why, he would ask, should not the estimates have
been brought forward at an earlier period of the session?
If the lion. Member for Lewes would resist this mode
of proceeding at a future period, the Government would
find that the present would be the last time that it
would be allowed to take place.
After a few words from Mr. FITZROY,
Ile vote was then agreed to, as were also 350 000/.
for Naval Stores, 500,000/. for Half pay, 200,0001. for
Military Pensions and Allowances, and 100,00/. fur Civil
Pensions and Allowances.
The House then resumed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In reply to a question from Mr. HUME,
_ .

Lord. J. RUiSELL stated that it was the intention
of the Government to proceed with the Navigation Bill
upon Monday and Thursday next.
POOR-LAWS (IREL ‘ND) RATE IN AID.
Upon the motion for going into Committee upon this
Bill,

Mr. SADLEIR rose and said he would state as briefly
as possible some of the considerations which had induced
him to resist the proposition which had been brought
forward by the Government, to raise a certain sum of
money for the relief of distress in certain districts of
Ireland, under the name of a rate in aid. He re-
gretted to perceive, from the observations addressed
to him last evening by the Noble Lord, that he was
disposed to re-echo the clep-trap and, as he must
think, most unjust cry of those few Members who
were in favour of the Ministerial project. It
had been stated, most unfairly and unjustly, that
the majority of the Irish Members, by opposing the
proposition, placed themselves in the position
of men who were prepared to pass a sentence of death
upon a large portion of their fellow-countrymen. Ile
was convinced that it was not only an unjust and delu
sire proposition, but that it was calculated to
extend the circle of destitution and suffering,
which he was sure the Noble Lord was anxious
to alleviate, and as far as possible to reduce.
The tenant occupier stood at present in a position which
made him wholly dependent on the landlord, and it
was futile to expect that any advantages to be de-
rived from a good harvest could ever place him
in the position which the Noble Lord had pointed out.
Now it should bo recollected that this rate in
aid would fall with no sort of equality upon the
different parts of the country. Ulster, for
iratance, would have to pay a great deal more
to such a rate than Munster, or any other province in
Ireland. He did rejoice that the Government had
brought before the House the revolting state of destitu-
tion that prevailed in the province of Connaught, but
he regretted that whilst doing so, they had not
produced the evidence which the Government possessed
respecting the state of the whole of the labouring popu-
lation. He was desirous especially, for instance, that
the state of the distressed unions, as they were called in
Leinster and Munster, should have been more fully laid
before the House. The Honourable Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to cite instances of that distress in several unions.
In the Queen's County the distress was of the
same character; there the clothing of the farmers was
made up from rough frieze cloth, while that
of the peasantry consisted of nothing but rags
and tatters. In Tipperary, which had been for centuries
known as the "golden green," the only pawnbroker of
the union stated that during the last two sears nothing
in the shape of clothing or wearing apparel now
formed a part of his pledges, and he represented
that the clothing of the peasautty was nothing
but a mass of rags, which required the utmost
ingenuity to keep together. flow could they hope, then,
that the farmer:; would be able to pay this rate ? There
could be no hope of it; and he was very much afraid
that, instead of relieving Ireland, this measure would
have the eff-et of throwing those who were at present in
work out of employment and increasing the prevalent
distress. But some Honourable Gentlemen bad
had the folly to describe the opposition to this
motion as one of a sectarian and religious
character, and as an effort on the part of the
Protestants of Ulster to exonerate themselves from the
liability of assisting to alleviate the destitution
and distress in their country ; but that could
not possibly be the case, because the greater part of the
Members in that House who represented constituencies
in the north of Ireland were Catholics, and therefore
it was a most unjust statement which had been put for-
ward, with the view of advancing some prejudice in favour
of those cbjections among the uneducated musses inlreland.
Hon. Gentlemen should also bear in mind the principle
on which that rate in aid was to be levied as a tax. It was
to be levied on a valuation which was nut uniform—not
uniform even in any one union throughout Ireland, and
the practical effect of that would be, that whilst the mere
cenafortable classes in some districts would not
practically pay 2d. in the pound, others would be
paying 6d. in the pound, because every Honour-
able Gentleman at all acquainted with the
principles on which the poor-law valuation
was carried out in Ireland, must know perfectly well
that a sixpenny rate in aid might be a sixpenny rate
in aid in one district, but would not amount to 3d. or 4d. in
other districts better circumstanced and better able to
bear any additional impost at this moment.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord contrasted the very small amount
of the poor-rates in the fair and prosperous localities of
Ireland with the poor-rates levied in some of the worst
localities in England. He (Mr. Sadleir) did not think
that was a fair inference, because in many of those dis-
tricts the poor-law had been kept down by the resident pro-
prietors in those districts. The principle of remitting the
arrears of poor-rates was similar to remitting arrears of
rent in cases of estates in Ireland administered under
the Court of Chancery, and equally mischievous.
The proposition was delusive with reference to the people
of Ireland, and delusive also to the English people, and
their representatives in that House. If the Government
would state frankly and boldly the social position of all
classes in Ireland,from the mass of information they were
furnished with— if they diel'sso it would only be a calcu-
lation of figures to show that it was delusive to suppose
that any sum they might advance would put a
stop to the famine and starvation that was exist-
ing in Ireland. The Government had information
which showed them that in the most fruitful parts of
Ireland, men were dying of starvation. In consequence
of the failure of the potato diet in Munster they
were now obliged to live upon turnips—(Hear,
hear)—snd he believed it only required about six weeks
of that diet to kill an able-bodied man. The Noble Lord
had represented the project as a cure of an acute evil—
that acute evil was the starvation of the people of Ire-
land. He utterly denied that this sum was sufficient
to preserve the poor of Ireland from starvation.—(Hear.)
It had been said that some districts in Ireland had re•
pudiated their just liabilities to the Imperial Ex-
chequer—that they had cot repaid the sums of money
which had been advanced for the erection of poor-
houses, and that that evidenced a natural desire
in Ireland as to the repudiation of the debt.—(Hear.)
He considered that no case had been made out to justify
that assertion, and he utterly denied that any district had
been guilty of such a repudiation. An exertion had
been made in Ireland, such that the history of nations
would never present anything analogous to it, which had
contributed vastly more than any measure emanating
from the Treasury benches to preserve life in that
country. While acknowledging with gratitude the ad-
vances made to them, they had merely asked as a favour
that the period for the repayment of the instalments
should be extended, but intimation was given them that,
as their resources were not entirely exhausted, their ap-
plication could not be complied with. The farmers in
Kent, however, were treated differently when they ap-
plied for an extension of the time for the payment of the
hop duties, and their request was attended to, as they
had a riglit to expect it would be, in consequence of the
circumstances of the- country.—(Hear, hear.) I he
Right Hon. Member for Tamworiti had said that he
wished to see a great exertion made by Ireland to alle-
viate the distress; but if the Right Hon. Baronet had
recently visited Ireland and had entered the cabin
of the tenant-farmer, the dwellings of the priesthood,
of the ministers of the Establishment,:and of the Pres-
byterian clery—if he had walked into the medical
man's laboratory, the dismantled dwelling of the land-
lord, struggling to relieve the destitution by which he
was surroupded—if he had looked over the schedule of
the broken-down and insolvent tradesman—if he had
observed the enormous sacrifices made of every descrip •
tion, and directed his attention to the voluntary sub-
scriptions in every quarter for the relief of dis:rese, the
Right Hon. Baronet would have acknowledged that an
exertion had been made by Ireland such as could not be
found in the history of any other nation. He wished to
know whether the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment would cope with the difficult question con-
nected with the surplus agricultural population in Ire-
land, instead of compelling the industrious and 0117013

persons to maintain in idleness above two millions of
people. With regard to the area of taxation, he believed
that the present extended area would encourage exter-
mination, and not the adoption of a diminished area,
which, accompanied by a simple law of settlement, would
tend to check the system of extermination. What could
be more delusive than the anticipations founded upon
the prospect of the returning potato? Of what value
would it soon be for feeding legs? Fresh pork was now
imported from America. The potato could not be relied
uron fur carrying the tenant-farmer through the struggle
which awaited him. He was in a very different ease
from the tenant-farmer in England; in England free
trade might be followed by an adjustment of rent to the
price of agricultural produce, but in Ireland to ask the
encumbered landlord to reduce the rent some '2O per
cent., or even less, was virtually to ask him to pass
sentence of expatriation upon himself.—(Bear, hear.)
Ile (Mr. Sadleir) had received a letter that morning
from Queen's County, ',mitten by Mr. Wood, a prac•
tical man, thoroughly acquainted Kith the dis-
trict; and he stated that in the divisions of Denogew
more and Borris• in-Oesory there were about 3,000 acres
partially deserted. - This was one of the districts from
which the sixpenny rate was expected to be collected
—([fear,) This gentleman estimated the quantity 01
land without hoof or horn upon it at more than 6,000
acres ; there wee no prospect of getting the rates of this
land before October next. He stated also, that from tot
thousand acres, Irish plantation measure, the poor-rate
could only be got by sale of the term horse, or the cow,
on which the subsistence of the family depended. Sob
were the circumstances of the country; and they justified
him (Mr. Sadleir) in saying that he was opposed to the
rate in aid, and he was also opposed to the imposition of
an income-tax upon any interest, profession, or culling
in Ireland. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russtll)
might smile at that, but let him show what class
or interest was in such a condition as to make it politic,
upon Imperial grounds, to imfose upon it a tax from
which it had been hitherto exempted. He (Mr. Sadleir)
had with him a letter from Mr. Purdy, agent to the
Mining Company of Ireland, showing the very great
reduction in the quantity of small cpal of late for burn-
ing lime to manure land, corroborating what he (Mr'
Sadleir) knew to be true of a vast proportion of that
class in Tipperary and Queen's County, that the
m tenantry, who were just gettiug what crop they could
out of the land, were calculating leaving in the autumn.
Another letter described the miserable condition of an
estate, the people dying by inches; and that was a des'
trict from which the rate in aid was to be levied!'"
(Hear, hear.) Could anything be more like playing
A
with the lives of the people, than to put forever'
such an absurd proposition to practical men of business
to meet a great and pressing- difficulty? Let the ull'
sound social state of Ireland be laid bare to the people
of this country, and then, if the House of Comma/
would pass (to use the phrase of the Minister) a deliter
rate sentence of death upon the distressed people el
Ireland, let him appeal to the constituencies and see
whether England would sancticn such treatment of
people unequalled for patience and resignation—a pee"
plo who had been too submissive under a policy which
seemed like a cruel indifference to the increasing worts'
lity to which they were exposed. Ile had frequently alr
pealed to the Government to take some steps by which
the vital statistics of Ireland might be placed before the
House. He bad asked them to employ the machined
which they already possessed to.obtain a return of the
cattle, corn, poultry, and pigs of Ireland=-to employ the
police, and to avail themselves of the assistance of the-
clergy, the sheriffs, and the coroners of Ireland, in order
to get materials for placing before the House the paters
and character of thatenortality which many private in"
dividuals knew well was rapidly and fearfully increasing'
—(Hear.) The Noble Lord acknowledged the import.
ance of this subject, hut notwithstanding he had not se
yet introduced any measure for the registration of births
and deaths in Ireland.—(hear, hear.) It appeared as
if there was a wish to conceal the dreadful state of thing'.
in Ireland—that there was a crafty effort to withbo,
from the people of England a report of this disgraceful
mortality.—(Hear, hear.) The fearful destitution 0i
Ireland was the main ground on which he rested his or
position to the rate in aid, as well as to the income-taP
He found himself compelled to vote against the
Member for Kerry in his proposal of an income-tax, and
also against the rate in aid, which the Government bs
brought forward as the most wise and just mode of tiaa;
lion it was in their power to suggest. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer stated last year, that though on strie',
principles of justice it could not be denied that the fir
come-tax ought to be equally imposed on both countriel
yet that in the particular circumstances of Ireland!
would not be expedient to do so. On that occasion be
spoke of professional men in Ireland who might be in the
receipt of 3,0001. or 4,000/. a year; but he (Mr. Sadleir)
must say the number of such was very small. There
were not more than six members of tke Irish be
whose professional incomes exceeded 3,0001. per se3l;
num ; and, with those exceptions, he did not beueein
there were many receiving 2,0001. per annum ;
the great majority scarcely earned as much as woo
„
pay their current expenses. Tho reasons given ,
the Right Honourable Gentleman last year for nee
imposing the income-tax might be urged with equal for!:
at the present moment; amid, therefore, he could not girt
the amendment of the Hon. Member for Kerry his sup
port. With reference to the case of encumbered estate.,
in Ireland, he was satisfied that so long as thee,
aimed at the administration of those estates
,
through the courts of equity they would never
move the difficulties they had now to contend el";
They must make up their minds to surrender
to some commission with extraordinary powers- the 511'
certainment of the demands justly chargeable upon &bell
props /ties, and all other circumstances, and to confer
Parliamentary titles on those who might purchase. Such
a project was no novelty in Ireland. It had been trke.,
iu that country with perfect success, and he was gati',
tied that, if now adopted, instead of employing the gesso
chinery of the Court of Chancery, a saving of from 30. ch
40 per cent. would bo effeeted on the properties %Olio
might under such a commission change hauds.—alesho
Mr. CLEMENTS thought the Hon. Gentlemen was
had just spoken had brought forward strong arginntlier
in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Member ,ho
Kerry; for anything that showed the prostration of
farming class in Ireland, anything that pointed out t',,
great burdens they had to tear connected with the 10°f
0
rate, spoke in favour of an income-tax in preference "
a rate-in aid. If they were merely to consider t`"
question whether Ireland should, under existing el:013,1;
stances, be taxed, he thought they would all come to t
conclusion that it ought not to be taxed. In ordiner4,
circumstances he would take the Hon. Gentleman's
of the:case; but it was admitted that they were in no or le
nary circumstances. Right or wrong, the English PeOia
were admitted to be against affording any further Os,
to Ireland ; but it was, at the same time, untitled
tioned that the distress of the western districts
Ireland must be relieved. Then where was the raer3:o
to come from? It could only be drawn from -tri.ne
resources—(Hear, hear)—and the only questiod
before the Committee was, what kind of tax We
it be mast convenient for them to pay? —(Hear, bee
Everything that had been urged by the Hon. Gentletujsl, o
oy
(Mr. Sadleir) spoke trumpet•tongued in favour of suito
come-tax; and he had heard nothing either from
Noble Lord or the Chancellor of the Exchequer rate
could induce him to approve of the principle of the for
in aid. The Noble Lord had said that if the Irish ge
hers were in favour of an income- tax he would haef.ch
objection to it; but he regretted that the mode in w'',!nd
he thought it desirable to propose that substitution
anything but tended to a solution of the difficultin,
(Hear, hear.) At the same time he thought it unfer
nate that any gentleman should have been frighten ft
from the position they were inclined to take by the 5'0,,
of almost threat which the Noble Lord held out to tbe.on
that if they adopted an income-tax, still further tllO
moot
wou!d be imposed upon them.—(Hear.) He could 1101, "
derstand why an income-tax should not realise as it
as a rate in aid. The only ground for supposing
would not was that a large amount of income was 0-
ready paid in England out of Irish resources. But bee 1b
threat treated Irish Members not to be frightened at I.'oo
threat of the Noble Lord, but to consider the queslito
fully and fairly whether it was not more desirable to
have an income. tax than a rate in-aid. By havingp jni:re),
income-tax they would avoid the degrading
involved in making Ireland the area of a
ation for purposes which should be a charge on the unit!,
empire. When he reflected on the moral effect a raire
in aid would have on the farming classes in Ireland,iee,
was really at a loss for expressions adequately to I'4
scribe the apprehensions which must naturally be felt ('s,
separate tend._
that subject. If, therefore, the Irish members were pri.,
pared to meet the present crisis by agreeing to fro
imposition of some new tax, he would cordially suPP°
the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. RICE would have been content to have give-e •
silent vote in favour of a rate in aid, if it had nete7an
peered ~to him that the lion. Member for Kerry Poo
made this an English :question. Undoubtedly
people of England did feel it hard that they should P
an income-tax while the people of Ireland were eil3Se
from such a charge. Having on a former earns',
voted in favour of extending the income-tax to ireaisfe
it was necessary he should explain why he now g..,01
his preference to a rate in aid. Ilia sole reason Ai.
that he believed a, rate in aid would meet the e'ne
gency that now pressed upon the House-o.l°e
saving of the people of Ireland from starvation
whereas an income-tax would not.—(bear.) If
rate in aid was only to be .sixpence in the pouratd en
thought a very unnecesearyydegree of indignation had "-be
displayed, and much valuable time wasted in debsteej
those who opposed that proposition. He admitted
however, that there bad been some valid objections art' to
against it. One was, the uncertainty that existed 0"0..
whether the rate would be limited in amount or in dLithe
tion. That point ought at once to be sent at rest 0.00
Government.—(Hear, hear.) He would limit the t' d•
to one year, and the amount to sixpence in the Patio
But when the rate in aid ceased, then the income 1,,61
should commence —(" Hear," and laughter.) He oh
glad that his proposition had been received with s she
good humour; indeed, he was happy to observe that
debate had taken a much better tone than was eeineed
the beginning of the discussion,—when some Hon; Oe
me se
tlemen were pleased to say—" We in Ulster are re,r-tos
tants and prosperous; while you in Connaught are uti
lies and in distress;—become like us, be Protestanteve
be p rosperous, and then you will need no one to re' sea
you." Such had been the language used in these de,,,bs„o3.
but the Hon. Member for Kerry and the lion. 11".-0
her who had just addressed the house had spoke° 1 fee
•h Me very different spirit. It was honourable for Iris pas
leers to come forward and say that they wer,e 80
pared to submit to an income.tax for Ireland. ve tee
willing to give them an income. tax ; and he should her
like to meet the wishes of the Noble Lord the Mewed re
for Down (Lord Castlereagh), who had express Inv
desire that it should be an Imperial-tax and formes
perial purposes ; and, moreover, that it shoulet/ed
the same character of permanency which he ben
the income-tax in this country was destinna to
occa•
joy.—(Laughter.) He gave his vote on this me
sion as a vote of confidence in the Gove_,h
hoar)—for poaffes6ed no information IT"

spect to Ireland.—(" Hear," and laUghter.) How cot&
he, as an English Member, vote at all, unless it were
given as a vote of confidence? The Chancellor of tb,
Exchequer had told them that this rate in aid was fug
the purpose of saving the lives of the people of Ireland
—(Hear.) He presumed that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not have made that statement unless it wor,! true
The measure mi4lit be objectionable in principle; but.
when they considered its object, they must not stand to.
strictly upon the. principle of the measure.—(ll,ar.) Il
wished to give Ireland equal justice and equal laws, but
he, at the same time, was anxious to be just to the people
of this country, by imposing upon all parts of the United
Kingdom equal taxation.
Mr. SCULLY said, that however lengthened migh,
be their debates on this most important subject, he did
not consider that the time would be wasted. The Hot,.
Gentleman proposed that there should be a rate in aid
for a year and then an income-tax; why not let them
have both together, and then they would know the worst?
He did not consider Ireland to be at this time in a stat,

to be further taxed: he therefore should opposed both
an income-tax and a rate in aid. Before either wer,
agreed upon, the resources of Ireland ought to be in
quired into; and sure was he that the result of such
an inquiry would be a conviction that this was not
the time to impose additional taxation upon the
people of that country. There were other funds
in Ireland which might, in his opinion, fairly be
applied to the relief of the destitution in that
country. He thought, for instance, that a portion of
the rich revenues of that monster evil, the Irish Church,
might, as a matter of justice, be so applied. Originally
one-third of the tithes were devoted to the support of
the poor; and when could a better opportunity be found
for the re-establishment of that principle in Ireland than
at the present moment?—(Hear, hear.) Then there
was the large sum derived in the shape of income-tax
from Irish property, which might be also justly applied
to the same purpose. These and other matters would,
at all events, form a fair subject for inquiry by a Com-
mittee. He had hoped that the Noble Lord at his re-
cent interview with Irish Members would have stated
his intention of abandoning the proposal of a rate in aid,
and of charging the funds he had just alluded to with the
relief of the existing distress. But he, as well as others,
had been sadly disappointed with the result of that inter-
view. The fact was that the Government, in order to
deal successfully with the present crisis, must change
their course. All parties in that House seemed to be
agreed that a more energetic policy was necessary for
Ireland. He had lately come from that country, and it
was really melancholy to witness the despondency which
prevailed among all classes there in consequence of the
neglect of Government. They had hoped that the Go-
vernment would long before this have taken an opportu-
nity of proposing some of those comprehensive measures
about which they talked so loudly when in opposition; but
they had now lost nearly all confidence in the Govern-
ment. He implored them, however, to change their course
—to bring forward again the great question of the Irish
Church, and to adopt in other respects a generous
course of policy towards that unfortunate country.
Colonel DUNNE said that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had last night expressed his gratification at the
speeches of the Hon. Members for Kerry and Long-
ford. He (Colonel Dunne) could not shaVe in that gra-
tification; but he did not wonder at the Right Hon.
Gentleman's surprise at seeing Irish Members rushing
with open arms to meet taxation. For his own part,
he objected both to an income-tax and a rate-in-aid,
because he did not consider either of them consistent
with the spirit of the Act of Union. Should the Go-
vernment accede to an inquiry as to whether additional
taxation was consistent with the Act of Union, and to
what extent, he was quite prepared for any amount that
might be considered fair and necessary; but until they
did that he should vote not oaly against any income-tax,
but against a rate in aid as well, leaving the respon-
sibility of the consequences upon her Majesty's Minis-
ters.—(Hear.) He was not alone in objecting to an
income tax for Ireland. Stong objections, which were
fully as applicable now as then, were statei to it in 1545
by Sir R. Peel, Lord Palmerston, and Mr. Goulburn.
(Here the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted the senti-
ments of the Members he had named.) The Hon.
Member for Bucks had last night spoken very severely
of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, for
what he called the "unconstitutional" interview with
the Irish Members. If the Hon. Member was correct as
to the interview being unconstitutional, the Irish Members
were equally liable to the condemnation with the Noble
Lord, and he (Colonel Dunne) was quite ready to bear
has part of the blame. But he did not think it was
unconstitutional ; and he thought moreover that if
the Government were more frequently to consult the
Irish Members on Irish subjects, it would be better
for both. But with reference to that particular
interview he did not think that the Irish Members
had much to boast of. The Noble Lord had given them
merely a choice between the dagger and the bowl—
hear)—between an income tax and a rate in aid;
whereas, as he had said, he as well as other Irish Mem-
bers were equally opposed to both. Not because they
were unwilling to pay their lair share of taxation, but
because they wished the taxes to be readjusted first.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kerry had said
that the introduced
proposal of the rate in aid had been
under circumstances very unusual. On the contrary,
be (Colonel Dunne) thought that the introduction of
the measure was in perfect accordance with the
whsle conduct of the Government on the subject of
the Poor-law. They had introduced a measure for
allowing outdoor relief to the poor of Ireland, con-
trary to the opinion of Mr. O'Connell and of the com
Inissioners, who had previously conducted an inquiry
into the subject; and they had introduced this rate in
aid exactly in the same way, contrary to the opinion of
a large body of the Irish Members, as well as contrary
to the opinion of their own commissioner, Mr.Twisleton.
--(Hear.) The time at which this proposition was
Made was most inopportune. Ireland was suffering
deeply from the effect of their commercial changes, and
on looking to the present prices of corn and to what
they would probably become, the actual reduction in the
value of the produce of Ireland could not be estimated
at less than 6,500,0001. Instead of
Liverpool, the Irish merchants exporting corn to
were b
to import it from America. Add
dad s ot
o this
p rtehpea rilonsgs
sustained from the failure of the potato
crop, with the
consequent losses on feeding pigs and cattle,
which had
not been estimated too highly at 42,000,000%, and they
night hesitate before they thought this the most proper
time to put an income-tax on that country. He could
not understand how his lion. Friends (Mr. Herbert and
lilt, Fox) could vote for an increase of taxation, but if
cri a readjustment of the taxation it appeared that
Ireland did not bear her stipulated proportion in accord-
ance with the terms of the Act of Union, he and every
other Irish Member would be quite ready to submit to
any burdens which it appeared right that they should
pay The revenues of Ireland were no less than
',400,000/. It was obvious she did not require such
te 'tn for her own purposes. Her military este-
iutushment this year would cost nearly 2,500,0001, but
was quite unfair to keep up such an army to en-
tire() the poor-rate in a country so obedient to the law
as Ireland for the most part was. The analogy be-
tween the rate in aid and the Scotch tax of which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke, and which the
noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had referred to, did not
tils because, as he (Colonel Dunne) was informed by
h Ron. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), that tax
laid been imposed in accordance with the old Scotch
ekw. The fact was they must make large and radical
e!..la.nges in the whole of the Irish poor-law. The cost
its :.administration was enormous. Last year they
laid out 700,0001., of which 500,0001. went to feed the
People, and 200,0001. to pay the poor-law officials. With
such a system the rate in aid must be eternal. With all
that had been said against the potato, he very much
doubted whether it was not better than cereal food,
nd he thought it impossible by any system of al
tern •
Mien of crops to support the people on the western
Coast,. exposed as it was to the winds from the Atlantic.
.1! nder any circumstances, such a system could not be
" e growth of a year, and meantime the people would
Buffer from the want of food. The same objections
applied to the propositions for facilitating the transfer
of estates and to the formation of Parliamentary titles.
The latter was no new thing, for it had been tried re-
peatedly since the days of Elizabeth and Cromwell, not
to go further back ; and the success which had at-
tended it was not such as to make them wish for a repe-
tition of the experiment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES said he would, in a few words,
give the reasons why he could not vote for
the proposition of the Noble Lord, on the
grounds it had been submitted to the House, and at
the same time his intention to vote for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert),
though he :could (not contemplate the possibility of its
being adopted for the discouragement and difficulties
thrown by the Government in the way of those Irish
Members who would otherwise have given it their sups
Port. After the intimation of the Noble Lord, and the
strange way in which it had been given,. that if the
amendment was carried he should consider it his duty to
matte additions to it, the nature of which he did not
state but but which might plainly be understood to point to
fresh taxation for Ireland, no Irish Member could run
the risk of voting for the amendment; but not being de-
rrred by the responsibility attaching to representatives
from Ireland, he (Mr. Bankes) would give that amend-
mexit his support. He was not prepared to sit still and
e the Irish people starving ; and Government must
either carry out other measures better suited to the
fergenbY, or into other hands the arrangement must
ate and relief must be administered under other circum-
utz"enes• - It would be with great grief he saw an incomes
,‘,...enir on Ireland. When the income-tax was pro-
r'o3_ols.ot.r three years longer he had concurred in the
rt ion of the Hon. Member for Montrose to extend
moire Ireland. But he would exempt that part of the
fro
would
give
the tax so long as famine continued; it
the inet7 him great pain to vote for the extension of
the Irish ax to Ireland at a moment like this, when
but that _
&mitoses declared not only that famine existed,
by
-the d'oen.l..F.oondition had been deteriorated, as stated
adoorpetion of
e.4leTber fur Portarlington, by the unhappy
El severe inn- tu.'ige Which had subjected landlreto
perienced tetione
taxation of Ireland the tax (near)
than ever this country hx-
This was not the time to add to
f the and • ofGovernment th 'and it was not to much to ask
moment some of th at they should have waved for the
stood in the way ose Collo • •
nam principles which alone
without • , to
ut filing' an,
.1.,..0rd J. RUSSELL furnish money to Ireland
taxation on the country.
BANKE,s_ti—Yoll opposed that.
Porn Len ef the House a e was not aware that from his
I°....en'opposed. je
_nything such as he referred to had
'opposed.
lad the Noble Lord continued the ina-
'would wi corn he would have bad a revenue which
distress rr°, Produced last year 900,000/ applicable to
ofad
Ireland, and operating as a remedy to the evil
Tae
the Hon. Member for Portarlington had spoken.
3)1 Noble Lord would not evade any
tide, b
Pled but It would have promises he had
gek been well had he given no rash
seb remedy of easy application were to be
re ght, why a
!en— not double tbe rate of postage
that Source would not be doubled, but
uO/,. or 300,0004 might be realised, which was

/.11 the G ivernment said they wanted for the
'resent emergency. Had ho not as much right to
isk the economists of that House to adopt that proposi
ion as th y had to ask him to vote away the money of
;iis constituents, who could not pay it without adding to
the sufferings they already endured? The present oc-
rupants of the Treasury benchts used in Opposition to
aunt the Governcarnt with having produced the un-
'nappy disunion in feeling which existed between the in-
tiabitants of what ought to be a unitad empire. Tne
acople of this country were becoming the creditors of
the people of Ireland, and were to have the right of
seizing for the present advances the stocks and crops of
their debtors, the people of Ireland. Such was the po-
sition in which the Government bad placed them when
it asked them to live in friendly brotherhood. He
could not, therefore, consent to advance money on
the rate in aid, denounced, as it was almost uni-
versally, by the Irish representatives. If the English
representatives had to refuse money for those who re-
quired to be relieved, they refused it because the Go-
vernment did not ask it as they might, entitling Hon.
Members to give it not or.ly readily but cheerfully, with
the sanction of their constituents. With respect to the
plan propund,d by one of the greatest authorities in
that House, and which had been received with the re-
spect with which everything from that quarter ought to
be received, he regretted that so much commentary had
been made on that plan, and he thought the Hon.
Member for Cockermouth had occupied the time of the
House rather unnecessarily, by going over a scheme al-
ready made known so far as expedient. The present
question was a narrow one—could the House grant money
on the terms proposed by the Government ? To that
proposition he must, in one word, say no.
Sir L. O'BRIEN could not suppose the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government turned a deaf ear to the re-
presentations of the misery which came from the other
side of the Channel. Of all Members of that House, the
Noble Lord must be best inrormed as to the scenes there
passing. He could not be ignorant that at this moment
starvation prevailed in many of the western counties.
Under these circumstances the Noble Lord was bound to
ask the House for grants of money; but he found himself
in this painful position, that the English Members said
they would give no more grants of money to Ireland. The
Noble Lord had told the Irish Members that they must
take on themselves the rate in aid, which inquiry had
shown would produce the most detrimental effects. Nei-

ther must ii be left out of view that the distress
extended in a greater or less degree to the most
flourishing ports of Ireland, that the people of Ulster,
who lived on the potato as well as the people cf the
other provinces had this year lost as much, in pro-
portion as the others. Nor ought the contributions which
Ireland had this year made to the support of its own poor
to be forgotten.—(Hear.) A poor. rate of 2,000,000/.
had been raised on a valuation of 13,000,000/. The
cereal as well as other crops had suffered. He had made
the greatest possible efforts to introduce a system of
green crops. This year they had failed as much as the
potato. The circumstances were such that the same
spirit of generosity ought to pervade that House as had
pervaded it in former years. He had heard with great
pain the speech of the Hoa. Member for Montrose, who
proposed to throw on the Irish Members the responsibility
of preserving the lives of their brethren. If it were thrown
on him (Sir L. O'Brien) he would willingly accept the
terms. But was the Hon. Member for Montrose prepared
to throw off the brotherhood of one part of the country
—to declare that the people in Clare were not equally
the brothers of the people of England and Scotland as
they were of the people of Ulster and Leinster?—
(Hear, hear.) What more brotherhood was there be-
tween Mayo and Clare than between Middlesex and
Clare? They were all fellow subjects. He had estates
in two different unions. He had paid rates of 55.,
33. 41, and again 34. 4d. in the union of Ennistymon,
three rates amounting is all to I Is. Bd. in the pound. If
bread were left for himself end his children, he would
abandon all rather than that the people should starve.
The landlords had to pay rates on land for which they
had not received one farthing—a provision of the
poor-law so unjust and iniquitous that the people of
England would never bear it; and unless the Noble
Lord and Secretary for Ireland brought in a Bill
to remedy that evil, they ought to be driven from
their places. If the Government brought forward
a proposition fur an income-tax in Ireland on
their own responsibility, he would not say that
he would not support it; but, under present circum-
stances, he opposed that measure. What Ireland wanted
was as restoration of confidence. The landlords were
without confidence. The banks were without confidence.
Confidence was capital. They had capital enough in
Ireland if they had but confidence. They did not want
Parliament to send them capital if they could only have
confidence. If the farmer, the landlord, the banker, were
animated by such confidence, there would be be no defi-
ciency of capital. If the plan of the Right Hon. Member
for Tamworth would lead to a restoration of confidence,
it could not be said but that it would confer very great
benefit, but if the plan had a tendency to frighten the
landlord, to mention it would do the greatest possible
injury. A proposal for getting rid of the impediments
which legal forms offered to the transfer of real property
would meet with no opposition from him.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M'CULLAGH expressed his surprise at the Hon.
Member for Dorsetshire's disapproval of the discussion
which had arisen upon the plan proposed by the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth. The Hon. Member was the
last man in the House from whom euch an objection should
have proceeded, because it was he who, in the first in-
stance, declared his wish to know the mind of the Right
Hon. Baronet upon the subject of Ireland. The House
must recollect that the Hon. Member made an eloquent
appeal to the genius and experience of the Right Hon.
Baronet, calling upon him to help Ministers in their
embarrassments, and the empire in its difficulty.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, however, that the oracle had spoken and
the Right Hon. Baronet's partly developed plan
had already engaged the attention of men on
be th sides of the Channel, the Honourable
Member repented of the invocation which he had
made. The Right Honourable Baronet's speech was as
distasteful as his silence. The Hon. Member was as
little contented with the Right Ilon. Baronet's sug-
gestion as he had Le eu with his government when
he was the leader of a great united party on the op-
posite benchei. The Hun. Member's conduct justified
the application to him of the words of the old epigram-
matist,'
66 pleneilie, facilis, jucundus acerbus, es ideal ;

Nec tecum possum vivere, nee sine te."
The course taken by the Hon. Member for Cocker-
mouth last night was even more extraordinary. That
Hun. Gentleman took upon himself to inform the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth in what his plan was de-
ficient, and to suggest various matters which ho stated
to be essential to its success. It might safely be averred
that no two things ever presented a more marked con-
trast than the Right Hon. Baronet's speech and the
lion. Member's commentary on it. Though the Right
Hon. Baronet's plan might fail to satisfy some persons,
every man of right feeling must acknowledge the
good taste, the sobriety of judgment with which
he opened it to the House, and the circumspection, cau
tion, and, it might be said, the humility of wisdom—
the attribute of Lis great experience, long habits of re-
sponsibility, and power of grasping details—with which
he ventured to recommend it to the House.—(Cheers.)
Contrast that address with the fruit of irresponsibility
and inexperience with which the Hon. Member fur
Cockermouth had favoured the House! The one was as
great a proof of overconfidence as the other might to
some have seemed to be of unaccountable diffidence.
There was hardly any one whom the Hon. Member did
not lecture, if not revile. The Ministers were pronounced
incompetent and imbecile, and their measures mis-
chievous, whilst the profusion of praise which he be-
stowed upon the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth—
whether it were apposite or iiiapposite —must have been
as little regarded by their object as his censures by the
Government. The sensitiveness of the Right Hon.
Baronet must have been wounded when the Hon.
Member made an infelicitous illustration of the influence
of his plan by a reference to the contracts whieh had
been broken in consequence of its promulgation. In
short, the Hon. Member attributed to the Right Hon.
Baronet the intention of rigging the land market, and
thus defeating the very object which he had in view.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The allusions which the
Lion. Member for Cockermouth made to the evidence
given before the committee on the Poor Law called for
some observation on that point. The evidence of Mr.
Twisleton was deserving of every consideration on
account of the office which he bad so ably filled,
and which he had resigned rather than administer
the law for levying a rate in aid. Fortunately, how-
ever, Mr. Twisleton gave his reasons for objecting to a
rate in aid, and any one was able to estimate the force
of them. Mr. Twisleton frankly declared that his reason
for refusing to take any part in administering a law
enacting a rate in aid was, that he believed the measure
would endanger the stability of the connexion between
the two countries. Upon thus point he (Mr. M•Gul
lagh), although the youngest and least experienced Irish
representative in that House, was as competsnt to form
an opinion as Mr. Twisleton, and he totally differed from
the view which that gentleman took of the subject. There
was no proof that the opinions expressed by the repre-
sentatives of Ulster were shared by the mass of the
Irish people. No petition against the measure had ema-
nated from any great public meeting south of the Boyne.
With the exception of Belfast, no great town had
petitioned against the rate in aid, whilst Dublin and
Limerick had petitioned in its favour as contrasted with
an income-tax. With scarcely an exception the Ca-
tholic clergy had pronounced in the same manner. Mr.
Twisleton 's sole hope for the future rested on the revival
of the potato crop, and he would have the people of Ire-
land depend in the mean time on supplies from the Im-
perial Exchequer. Nothing could be more fatal than to
teach the people of Ireland to rely on that root, which
bad proved the greatest traitor to them, and which had
made
them alternately sponges in the hands of absentee
proprietors and stipendiaries on the Imperial Exche-
quer.—(Hear, hear.) The
question on the tight footing
when he said that the Irish representatives had now an
opportunity of determining whether or not personal pro-
perty should not, as well as real property, be made liable
to the support of the poor. The Hon. Member wished
to fight over again upon Irish ground the battle in
which he had recently been defeated; but
h
M'Cullsgb) warned Irish Members that if they should
(Mr.
bhould
once admit the principle that an income-tax might be
applied in aid of poor-rates the time would come when
it would be applied instead of them. The Hon. Mem-
bers for Buckinghamshire and Cockermnuth were agreed
in demanding a policy. It was undoubtedly true that
the measures now proposed were merely temporary, and
could exercise no permanent influence on the condition
of Ireland, and he believed that no legislation would be
capable of remedying the evils of that country until
the Irish Members on both sides of the House, who
kept faith with their tenantry and in whom that
tenantry trusted, should do themselves an act of
justice by no longer conceiving themselves bound to make
common cause with others of their body whose crimes
had reduced the people to misery—who had made the
people the tools of their rapacity as loug as the potatoes

lasted, and when that crop failed cast them for support
upon the Imperial Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) The land-
lords who had faithfully discharged their duties would
become accomplices after the fact of the bad men who
had deserted their country after inflicting the most
grievous evils upon it, if they failed now to shake off
the connexion and unite themselves with the mid die
and labouring classes, who had been too long the vic-
tims of bad men's crimes. Half the landlords of Ire-
land were bad.—(" No! nor') Well, the smaller the
number might be, the more easy it would be found to

deal with —them. It would be -said, " Will you attack
the rights of property ?" but against those rights it was

necessary to set the Wrongs which industry and humanity
had sustained. For the sake of their country he im-
plored the Irish Members to consent to a stringent and
an unusual measure, for by such alone could the evils of
that country be cured.—(Cheers.)
Mr. MO-NSELL considered that the sole question
which could be then debated was whether they should
accept a rate in aid or the proposition of his Honourable
Friend the Member for Kerry. He could not conceive
how Honourable Gentlemen could reconcile it to their
consciences, knowing the distress which existed in Ire-
land, and the necessity of funds being provided for its
relief, to oppose the rate in aid unless they were pre-
pared to support a substitute for it.—(Bear, hear.) He
must, however, say that he thought the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government had dealt somewhat un-
fairly with Irish Members on this question. Professing
to decide it by their wishes, he had, by the course he
had pursued, rendered the decision of it extremely diffi-
cult. The Noble Lard had frightened many of his Hon.
Friends by a sort of veiled figure of indefinite taxation
which he had raised, and he (Mr. Monadll) believed
that if the Noble Lord had dealt not more candidly, but
more openly with them, they would have been much
more able to come to a conclusion. But to those lion.
Gentlemen who had been alarmed by the Noble Lord,
and particularly to the Noble Lord the Member for
Down, ho wished to address a few words. He thought
it must be clear to that Noble Lord that one of these two
measures, a rate in aid or an income-tax, must be car-
ried; and, therefore, if the course pursued by the Noble
Lord and many of his friends was to defeat the proposi-
tion of his Hon. Friend, they would substantially assist
the Government in carrying the rate in aid. His Hon.
Friend who had last addressed the House had spoken as
if this measure was such as it had been described in
many of the public prints—a sort of landlord ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to know whether his
Hon. Friend could say he did not in his conscience
know that the adoption of an income-tax rather than
a rate in aid would deliver the farmers of Ireland
from an enormous amount of taxation which they
would otherwise ,have to pay. Knowing, as his Hon.
Friend did, that the vast majority of farmers in Ireland
would be rated under 3001. a year, could his Hon. Friend
maintain that this was a landlord question?—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, after referring to a reso
lution which had been passed at a meeting of tho boari
of guardians of the Limerick Union in favour of an in-
come-tax rather than a rate in aid, proceeded to say that
this was a question of a general tax instead of a local
one, and in that lay the fallacy of the argument used
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the previous
evening when he spoke of the Scotch case. In that
case, which occurred in the twenty-third year of George
111., several of the northern counties were allowed to
tax themselves for the poor, but there was no general
taxation, and it therefore did not apply to the
present question. Every precedent was against the
proposition of the Government ; and all writers on
the subject had expressed themselves in the strongest
manner as to the injustice of such a tax. Honourable
Gentlemen connected only with England were perhaps
hardly aware of the extreme disproportion between the
amount of rateable property in England and in Ireland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he believed, had
stated the former at 103,000,0001. a year, the tax upon it
being 12,000,00 W., or about Is. Bd. in the pound. In
Ireland, before the potato failure, the amount of rateable
property might be valued at 13,000,0001. a year, a low
average, he admitted, but adding 15 per cent., he would
take it at 15,000,000/., which no lion. Gentleman
would think was understated. From that must now be
deducted 20 per cent., which left the amount at
12,000,0001. The county cess on the average
of three years, without any repayment of ad-
vances, was 1,142,000/ a year. The poor-rates
lest year were 1,600,000/. ; the repayment of relief
advances, 272,3211. ; and the amount charged under
Sir J. Burgoyne's Relief Commission was 952,000/., part
of which was, he believed, paid, making altogether
4,200,000 i., or he might fairly state it at 3,800,0001. So
that the rateable property in England, which was
103,000,000/., paid but 12,000,0001. of taxation, whilst
that of Ireland, Amounting to only 12,000,0001., paid
4,ooo,oool.—(:fear, hear.) Was not that a state of
things which fairly claimed their liberal consideration?
If the representatives of Ireland consented to the im-
position of further taxation on that country in her pre-
sent distressed state, had they not a fair right to call
upon the House to change the policy which had already
produced such disastrous results?—(Hear, hear.) Would
the House allow that state of things which was de-
scribed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
Noble Lord as continually squeezing all the rates that
could be collected out of the different electoral divi•
sions to go on and make no such exertions as the emer-
gency of the case required?—(Hear, hear.) The re-
medial measures that might be adopted had been fairly
put forward by the Hon. Member for Cockermouth in
this debate, and by the Right Hsu, Baronet the Member
for Tatnworth, on two former and remarkable occasions.
He would refer to one case within his own knowledge
which illustrated somo of the important measures that
were absolutely necees try for Ireland. At a distance of
10 or 12 miles from Limerick was an estate of about
4,500 acres. For a long period it had been under the
jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. The tenants were
in a miserable state, and crime prevailed in the district
to a frightful extent. After many years an eminent
Limerick merchant purchased it, and by the course he
pursued the district was restored to tranquillity, and
the tenantry were, he could not say restored, for he be-
lieved they never had enjoyed prosperity bef ire, but ren-
dered prosperous. And what was that course? Assisting
the surplus population, who had no capital, to emigrate,
whilst those who had capital were kept at home. But al-
though he had done all this fur his own property, there
was at the same moment, in the same electoral divi-
sion, another estate, which had been, !leaven only knew
how long, in the Court of Chancery. Misery existed
there to a frightful extent, and in consequence his rates
were riot reduced to the amount they otherwise might
have been. He wished the House would reflect on the
condition of the people living on the estate of the Noble
Lord the Foreign Secretary, to which reference had been
made in the beginning of 1847, and take 6,000 people
living there—the number in the electoral division, and
compare it with that of 6,000 living in the electoral
of Clifden. In the first instance, they would find
:1,000 of these people sent to a country where they
are prosperous and able to remit money to their friends,
and the other 4,000 being in a state of comparative com-
fort; whilst in the other case, most probably, 2,000
were already in their graves, and the others were drag-
ging on a miserable existence. Ho could only declare
his belief that if the course which had been persevered
in so long were persevered in still, and the people of
Ireland were allowed to remain in their present wretched
condition, that House would bring down upon itself
the judgment of Heaven for not adopting those means
which were open for relieving those people from their
misery and suffering.
Sir W. BARRON said, that under the present eircum-
stanees of Ireland be could not vote for any addition of
taxation. In that country everything was hastening to
ruin, and how could this House fix an additional tax
upon a people so circumstanced. He could not agree
with the principle that these poor people should not
come to the common exchequer. Up to this hour they
had acknowledged and acted upon this principle, but
now, when Ireland, after three years of the direst misery,
was reduced to the lowest condition, they abandoned it,
and in the hour of its deepest distress deserted it. But
if he was to make a choice between the two evils he
should feel it to be his duty to give the preference to the
motion of the Hon. Member for Kerry, rather than the
proposition of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The
proposal of the rate in aid came at a singularly inau-
spicious moment. After a loss of between thirty and
forty millions of her capital and the infliction of two
millions of additional taxatien, they proposed to impose
another tax of 300,0001. They did this, too, at a

time when the agricultural products of Ireland were
debased in price at least 20 per cent. compared with
what they were five years ago. He was not going into
the question of the corn-laws; but this was certain, that
the interests of all classes in Ireland were bound up
with the interests of the landed class; and he would ask
whether, with the loss of nearly forty millions of capital,
and the depreciation of prices, this was a time to put an
additional tax upon an impoverished country? He would
remind the Noble Lord that it was because the British Par-

liament persisted in imposing unjust taxes that lost this
country the finest of her colonies. It was the unjust impo-
sition of taxes which cost a British monarch his head, and
though he did not say that the Irish people would take
up arms to resist this tax, yet certain it was that it would
alienate them from this country, and in the hour of dan-
ger it would find the error it had committed. The tax on
the North American colonies was imposed without the
pretext of representation, but in Ireland it was worse,
for tho tax was imposed under the pretext of a repre-
sentation which did not really exist. He protested
against the imposition of this tax, because it was con-
trary to the spirit of the constitution, and because it
was unsuitable to the present miserable and impoverished
condition of the people of Ireland.
Lord C. HAMILTON would not have risen on that
°melon if it had not been for the manner in which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dundalk had attacked a
number of Hon. Gentlemen, some of whom had been
Members of that House, and especially the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cockermouth, whose manly and intelligent con-
duct during these debates, had not only reflected addi-
tional lustre upon his already well-earned reputation,
but who had the courage to advocate what ho called
justice to Ireland at the hazard of off2nding his consti-
tuents. The Hon. and Learned Member had next
attacked Mr. Twisleton, and the whole of the landlords
of Ireland. For his own part he knew of no public
services performed by the Hon. Member which justified
him in thus denouncing a whole class of her Majesty's
subjects. One thing be would admit, that however
liberal in censure the Honourable Member had been, he
had been exceedingly sparing in argument in his sup-
port of the rate in aid. As a specimen of the arguments
he bad adduced the alleged fact, that the Roman Catho-
lic clergy had petitioned that the poorer portions of their
flocks should be excused from paying the income-tax,
and insinuated that the proposition of an income-tax was
made for the purposethe
boufrednenabslwinhglethhefaliarinydlboerldosnateodetso-
cape from bearing
them. Now his Hon.FrieiidtilniepArloevnaosbienrg
afonrelwiertaryx
might be accused of presumption
whohim
oknueltyrelahnisd tuo
oann.
FlrmtepnerdiaalsPhaerlidaimaenwtn;
nbldutabtshoolsree
fromere
did ii t
thatch arife course
uHefeoltf atsbemadneybatoetheorn Irishs IlTeexmeci
b

question, that the time had come when some addi-
tional taxation should be levied on Ireland. But he
felt that that taxation should not be in the shape of
a rate in aid, but in a mode by which the burden might
be fairly allotted. He might be in error as to the
t: runs of his resolution, or the mode in which he had
placed it bsfore the House, but, at all events, his object
was to apportion burdens fairly in Ireland, and to place
that country on a level with this as regarded the income-
tax. Upon that ground he gave the motion of his Hon.
Friend his support, as he believed other Irish Members did.
They were prepared to bear their fair share
.of the
burdens ; they only objected to bearing an unfair pro-
portion. With respect to the statement of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer as to the origin of this rate,
there were very few guardians who returned replies to
the queries addressed to them, and their decisions should
not be held binding upon parties who had not given their
assent to the proposition.
Mr. MARTIN said he had been acquainted with the
farmers of Ulster from an early age, and knowing, as
he did, that of all classes of her Majesty's subjects
they were most opposed to the rate in aid, he v!as.

anxious to state publicly the reasons why he intended
to vote in favour of that rate. The distress in the west
of Ireland was such that it must be relieved from some'

quarter or other. Now he knew of no quarter from
which such relief could be more justly relieved than the
immediate locality in which it existed. He objected
altogether to taking away the estates of the landlords,
as proposed by the R;ght Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth. It might be very proper to take lands for
debts voluntarily contracted by the proprietor, but it was
altogether different to take it tor debts created by an Act
of Parliament, to which the proprietor might have been
opposed. Ho supported the rate in aid, because he
thought it was just that Ireland should exert itself to
support its own poor, before coming to either England
or Scotland, and asking them to do so, and because
having listened with attention to all the objections that
had been urged against it, and especially the three which
had been urged by the Hon. Member for Buckingham-
shire, he was convinced that it was less objectionable,
either immediately or prospectively, than an income-tax.
Mr. STAFFORD said that the Hon. Member who
had just sat down was one of the only
two English
Members who spoke in support of the proposition of the
Government, and if he looked at the support which the
Hon. Member for Pontefract and the lion. Member for
Dover gave to the vote then before them, he must be al-
lowed to say that scanty as that support was it might
well have been spared. The Hon. Member for Dover
gave to his friends only a sort of half-support, for he
wished the rate to be continued merely for ono year.
Again, the Hon. Member fur Pontefract contended that
the Irish ought to provide for their own poor, and then,
after praising his friends the Presbyterians, he declared
his willingness to lay a heavy burden on them for the
benefit of the people of Connaught and Munster; but, at
the end of two years he would suspend his bounty, and
leave the inhabitants of those provinces to perish. The
Noble Lord stated, that if it were the wish of the Irish
Members to take the income-tax instead of the rate in
aid, he would be prepared to favour their inclination.
The attendance of English Members on this occasion
was therefore a superfluous luxur': for, to morrow,
when the division lists were scrutinized in Downing-
street, all the attention of the Government would be
turned to the majority er minority of Irish Members who
had voted on the question; and he believed the supposi-
tion that this would be the case had led to so thin an at-
tendance of English Members. The Noble Lord having
failed, by his courteous invitation to Downing-street, to
elicit the opinions of the Irish Members, proposed by
this division to give them the choice of two alterna-
tives, and it was for them to decide whether they would
take the income-tax or the rate in aid. The position of
those Hon. Gentlemen reminded him of the words of
Prior, addressed to a lady placed in somewhat similar
circumstances:—

ilnteo pound on that
---;l4co;,Ei;ma, now, thy last refection make,
Which, thou wilt follow, which thou must forsake;
For, by ill-omened stars and adverse heaven,
No middle object to thy choice is given."
Whatever the decision of the Irish Members might be,
the House would still have the unpleasing but inevitable
duty of voting 100,000/. on account, or as a loan; and it
behoved them, as men of business, to see which alterna-
tive offered the best security. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had stated last night that the sum he ex-
pected to raise from the rate in aid was 2,5030 stated,
250,0001. Now
a
annually,ow
abut, as the Chancellor
cant lan: edeo valueuut
hna et t i
w oor
uopnilndl pope ty in
adur deb coe s.
3a sofaeu
ttri3aml2t Ireland
• ofd w;• at s
3 officially,o.
b
calculated that a sixpenny rate would produce only
250,0001., the value of the property could be only
a
the
at'in the opinion of the
value of property in Ireland
Rightbo about H 1 00,n0. 0 0 ,
Gentleman,o°O/. ,
h
had sunk to the amount of 3,000,0001. since the valua-
tion referredtafford)that
it was made.
appeared
from
he
papers
e tmust
l whichaaid s
before
remind he
(Mr.t
hSe House,
Parliament,
that on the 25th of
Sep-
tember,
1848, the amount of uncollected rate due in
Ireland was 800,000 L, and that more than 7,000 armed
men were last year engaged in the collection of rates in
the Exchequer
had
ethe
distressed unions was becoming worse, and that the
anwdhlihceli Cshhoawnecdelltohra oft
the
circle of destitution was spreading. He (Mr. Stafford)
read
that
ad country;statements
thought, looking at these circumstances, that it became
the House to consider whether the security upon which
it was proposed to advance the 100,0001. now a'ked
for was good.—(Elear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Kerry (Mr. li. Herbert) proposed to offer as
aecurity for this grant the whole of the property in
Ireland which was not at present subject to th.
income-tax. The Right lion. Member for Tamworth
(Sir R. Peel), when he brought for ward h:s income-
tax scheme on the 1 1 th of nirch, 1842, estimated that
the produce of a property-tax in Ireland might amount
to about 410,000/. a year. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had said that an income-tax would not yield so
much as a rate in aid in Ireland, and that therefore if an
income-tax were adopted some supplementary tax would
be necessary; but the Right Hon. Gentleman did not
tell them on what calculations his statement was founded,
or what supplementary
tax he would propose. He (Mr.
Stafford) considered, therefore, that the Government had
not put the two alternatives fairly before the Irish Mem-
bers. lie had suggested to the Noble Lord two months
ago that it would have been fairer to the Irish Members
to give them the option now afforded them. That sug-
gestion was then received with no favour; but however
unconstitutional and unprecedented he might consider
the morning party—the Irish Parliament—held thr
other morning in Downing-street, he could not complain
that the Noble Lord had now adopted his suggestion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated last night
that there was hardly any amount of deference he was
not ready to pay the Irish Members. Why, then, did he
not pay some regard to their opinions, and abandon the
rate in aid altogether? The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had stated that this tax was no novelty. He (Mr. Stafford)
entirely acquitted the Government of the slightest ori-
ginality of idea; but be thought they deserved to be
called the Rate-in aid Government, for they seemed to
spend their official time in seeking suggestions from
others as to what they should do, especially with regard
to Ireland. The lion. Member for the West Riding
(Mr. Cobden) had stated at one of the large assemblies
he had graced with his presence during the Easter recess
that wheat, which, according to the last averages, was
445. a quarter, would, if the last sliding scale had been
in operation, have now realised 70s. a quarter; and the
Hon. Gentleman attributed the difference of 265. a
quarter to the effect of the free importation of corn.
This reduction of price
Hon. Gentlemen opposite
'The Right
would say would benefit the consumer while it
might be likely to injure the pro inter.
Honourable Member for Tamworth
(Sir It. Peel) brought
forward the Bdl which, according to the statement of the
Member for the West Riding, would now have made
wheat 70s. a quarter, and the same Right Hon. Baronet
brought in the Bill under the operation of which foreign
wiforsehigedn
wheat was now admitted at a nominal duty. il
to ask the Right Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Member
the West Riding, whether they would vote
in favour et
upon the agri-
this rate, which would be mainly imposed
cultural classes—those who he (
Mr.
bth law to which
he had just referred—thus visiting with still heavier
aefrd) believed
'
had suffered much from the change in
for
taxation those who were likely to suffer from the men
surea which they had brought forward? Surely they
must feel the impolicy of selecting the present moment
to tax a class on which the effect of dimitsished
prices must tall. He hoped that the Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Tamworth, if he were going to vote against the
proposition of the Hen. Member for Kerry, would fa-
vour the House and the people of Ireland by explaining
the reasons which actuated him. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet's speeches in reference to Irelend had attracted a
great deal of ,attention there, and no subject was so
eagerly debated as the scheme which he had put forth,
to effect, as he (Mr. Stafford) in a great measure be-
lieved it would, the amelioration of Ireland and the re-
generation of Connaught. But if the Right Hon.
Baronet was about to give a vote against the agricultu-
ral interest in that country, how could he expect
capitalists to invest money in land there, when
he lent his assistance to a proposition decidedly
against that species of property? It might be well for
Hon. Gentlemen connected with land, who were prepared
to vote against the proposition of the Hon. Member
for Kerry, to consider that in doing so they would
vote in company with those who loved not the land and
the just influence connected with it. He believed that if
the rate in aid was carried in that House, but a few
weeks would elapse before Honourable Gentlemen
would learn from the bitter experience of what might
occur in another place the wisdom of the course now
proposed by the Honourable Member for Kerry, whose
proposition would not only exempt from taxation the
small farmers, but also the small shopkeepers in the
lesser towns in Ireland. There might be a difficulty in
arranging the machinery with respect to the income-tax,
but that would be as nothing compared with the diffi-
culty which would arise in respect to the working of the
poor-law from the adoption of the rate in aid; which tax,
like the last feather that broke the camel's back, would
just complete the difficulty and render the confusion in-
terminable.
Mr. GROGAN, amidst loud cries for a division, said
he found himself with the opportunity, on the one hand,
of voting for the Government proposition; that course
he could not take, because he was opposed to the rate in
aid. Oa the other hand, he had the opportunity of sup-
porting the proposal of an income-tax in Ireland, an offer
which he thought uncalled for and unnecessary.—
(Laughter.) The alternative presented was the choice
between two bad courses.—(A laugh.) Let the English
Members bear in mind that by their votes they had en-
abled the Government to carry the second reading of the
Rate in Aid Bill, upon which was based the present
proposal of the Government; let them carry it if it was
their pleasure, but as he concurred with the head poor-
law officials in Ireland, who all held that the rate in
aid would give the worst of securities, he could be no
party to that vote of 100,0001 ; if it was the pleasure
of the House to vote it, let them do it.--(Laughter.)
The distress in Ireland had been recognised as an Impe-
riia calamity, and in 1816 the Noble Lord (Lord J.

Russell) said that " the whole credit of the Treasury
and means of the country were ready to be used, and
would, whenever they could b 3 usefully applied, be so
disposed, to avert famine and to maintain the people of
Ireland;" that contrasted strangely with his statement
on the previous night, that if the rate in aid should be
refused he would allow the people to die of destitution
without making any further advance from the Imperial
Exchequer.—(" Divide!")
Lord CASTLEREAGH though the House must feel
that many Members were placedi n a most embarrassing
position—(A. laugh)--partly by the conduct pursued
by the Noble Lord, most ably seconded by the Hon.
Member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert).—(" Divide, divide!")
He (Lord Castlereagh) had hoped the House would not
have been required to decide on such an alter-
native as was now presented. Would the Noble Lord
explain what additional taxation he intended to pro-
pose fur Ireland in the event of the proposal of
the Hon. Member (Mr. Herbert) for an income-tax
being carried?—(Latreiter and Ilear, hear.) He (Lerd
Castlereagh) never was called on in that House to take
such a leap in the dark. He was asked to vote for an
income-tax, not knowing fur how long or in what pro
portion, and he was fairly told beforehand that it must
be attended with additional taxation. Unless he heard
something of what it was to be, and whether direct or
indirect, he felt that he could not give a vote upon the
motion :::(Divide, divide.)_

Lord J2RUSSELL could not, consistently:with his
duty, give any further explanation to the Noble Lord
beyond what he bad already stated.—(Laughter.)
The Committee then divided on the amendment,when
the numbers were—

Ayes
Noce
Majority — 48

On re-entering the gallery, we found
Mr. HUME stating that it was not necessary for him
to more the proviso of which he had given notice, be-
cause he understood it would not be competent for the
Noble Lord to advance any money on the credit of the
rate in aid till the Bill had received the Royal assent.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Government did not pro-
pose to advance any money on the credit of the rate in
aid till the Act had received the Royal assent. Still he
was of opinion that if any unforeseen contingency should
arise it would be their duty to give aid from the funds at
their disposal, and then come down to the House with
the recommendation that it should be agreed to as a
grant. Certainly if he found that there was any chance
of people dying from famine, he would adopt that course,
and afterwards bring the matter under the consideration
of the House for their approval.
Mr. GOULBURN thought it perfectly clear that the
Noble Lord could not give any money on the credit of
the Rate in Aid Bill till it had received the Royal as-
sent. The only fund from which payments could be
made was that placed at the disposal of the Government
by Parliament; and if they expended any sum for the
relief of distress they must afterwards come to Parlia-
ment for its judgment and decision on the matter.
Mr. HUME wished it to be understood that, accord-
ing to a former statement of the Noble Lord, he would
not exceed, in any payment he might make, the sum of
5,0001. or 7.0001.
Mr. BATESON would oppose the motion because he
could not agree to any money being voted on the credit
of the rate in aid.
The Committee then divided on the original motion,
when the numbers were—

Ayes
Noes
Majority -95
The vote was then agreed to.
The Apprehension of Deserters (Portugal) Bill went
through Committee.
It was ordered that the House, at its rising, should
adjourn till Monday next.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned a few minutes before One o'clock.