The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-19 00:00:00

Bwriis..ohiect-78 tbe Corporations, great and small, of Great
the '4l and
Scotland.—(Cheers.) I have said that I feel
first value of the assent given by your Lordships to the
extitiPerienciPle of this Bill. .1 mean that which relates to the
object.ton of all.the existing corporations in Ireland their
19nahle and exclusive form. I feel that in so doing
saYo.a.o
r.. Lordships have given the strongest Parliamentary
thlrti!i it. on the part of this House that you could give to
stlotn of that policy which instituted an inquiry ex-
the defective and corrupt state of those institutions.
that netir) I feel you have recorded your approbation cf.
attair--ItYi and, therefore, I conceive a great object to be
;but'
nee even by
the Dm as it stands in its present state.
great as I think that object is, I do also think that ob-
Hotreat which you have aCt:lined assisting the other
4!eis Parliament in attaining. I allude to the con-
.l4.ction of a more wholesome corporate system than that
le_troycd,
, by the infusion of a due proportion of popular
intitellli and by an amendment the lbrtnt of election.
tits ?Q attainment of that object your Lordships have re-
tvea (4`ol3erating, and I, therefore, think it is hut right
iy_u fitting that the other House of Parliament should
sc ;11)prised of the. way in which your Lordships have
.741. t with their measure—(npprised of the reasons and
"twee which guided your Lordship; in your decision
to?t2.)eeting this measure I fear neither the other House
ar arliamenf or the -public are ever likely to be, and I
11.° sure it would not be for me to undertake the difficult
tilsk °I. explaining them ) ; and as the only course by which
ti FY can be duly made acquainted with them ate of events on
..."1,1 great question of legislation, no Noble Lord having
millfor a conference with the other House of' Parliament,
be to put them regularly in possession of the Bill in its
a'ii-Nled—l should say in its alteied—form, I have come
fortrsd
for the purpose of requesting your Lordships to
Ts the Bill through its rotnaining stages.—( Hear, hear.)
Y Lords, I desire it may be distinctly understood that it
:inn these grounds alone I beg of you to give the Bill a
"it'd reading• --(Hear hear.) f thought it my duty the
°titer evening to tender , to those who made this. Bill their
°I," the opportunity of putting it through its latter stages,
2,t as your Lordships are aware that offer those to whom I
allude thought proper to decline.—(Hear, hear, from the
PPosition benches.) I make use, my Lords, of the words
'rade this Bill their own," because, according to a memo-
randum which I have now before me, I find that the state
~r the Bill, as it passed the other House, is entirely dif-
' I,'erent from what it is at present. The preamble has been
mended, sixty-six of the clauses have been altered so as
heels to be recognise& of new clause' twenty-seven have
o:en added and of the clauses sent up by the other House
v! Parliament only eight have been preserved. I think
erefore I am justified in stating that the Noble arid
Learned Lord,
and those who acted with him, have made
'la Bill their own ; and further, that I was justified in
Pc'shig to the Noble and Learned Lord to conduct to
termination the Bill which 1M had so made his own.—
declined cheers.) But, when the Noble and Learned Lord
the task, I undoubtedly felt it to he my duty to
Offer to your Lordships to conduct this Bill to the final
%age, be which would be insured its regular transmission to
tO Other House of Parliament.—(Loud cheers.) If on
8 Occasion I could have hoped to alter ;'Our Lord-
sh!
• IPs' determination, I should undoubtedly have thought
r, •fIY duty once more to ask your Lordships, as
sa
Oltlestion of policy and as a question of wisdom, to con-
-4 r whether it became this House—the depository of
; h,nl3' of the mast valuable privileges that are maintained
'aw in this country, and the guardian by profession of
1,4,.11Y other privileges, which, though not attached to it,
e_ Protected and supported by its existence—l say, my
courds, I should have ventured to suggest the policy of re-
willsidering whether it is wise and prudent in that House,
lef'sh is the. first privileged. body. in the country, to make
itself the instrument of stripping all the corporate bodies
y Ireland of their privileges, and to use the prerogative
"ted in it by the laws in infringing the liberties and
flits of the people.—( Loud cheers.) This course I cer-
should have ventured once more to suggest to your
Lordships' consideration, if I could have hoped to shake
the
determination you have come to ; but entertaining the
feeling that such a hope is now altogether futile, it 16 not
11:13' intention to-night to give your Lordships the trouble of
a debate, for the purpose of restoring the Bill to its former
state. I shall, for the reasons I have given, now move that
tee Bill be read a third time, but I do so with a decided
Protest against the supposition that such a motion involves,
44 toy part, any approval of its contents ; or at least of
that
portion of its contents which effects the perpetual de-
struction of all corporate bodies in what. once was the sister
kingdom of England. Having made that protest in a man-
thr which I think will be understood in this House and in
the eountry—( Hear, hear)—I can have no hesitation, on
t:e, grounds I have stated, and on those grounds alone, in
sk_,lng your Lordships at once to give to this Bill a third
4:`l4ll;e—CThe Noble Marquis resumed his seat amid loud
Irenn ti wed cheer:llg.)
awt.,he, Nlarois of CLANRICARDE strongly protested
un i 4 the Bill, as being an insult to the Irish people, and
the ink
of the articles of the Union. Even though
oeao7a °u seof Commons should pass the Bill, yet we would
• •
and , inasmuch as it was an insult to the Irish people,
tnitt:r. declarations of the Noble Lord (Haddington) ad-
,as much.
made
rft_43inr:.altT~ HADDINGTON never any such ad-
.l
-s• Marquis of CLANRICARDE repeated that the
iiii lie' in the Bill was an insult to the Irish nation,
e I;e' therefore would not press a further discussion on 1
diiae
es .°"se. The Noble Lord's speech was utterly inau-
1' ' us.
tordbe Earl' of HADDINGTON said that the Noble
°PPosite were the real destroyers, for they at the first
Ara'°sed the extension of the Corporations, and afterwards
it.)°sed a substitution. He understood the Noble Mar-
is 4 alit° say that he (the Earl of Haddington) saw no danger
the,- "'mg the small towns to have Corporations, because
v' Possessed fewer inhabitants ; and that lie was ad-
tlia,,se to the larger towns having them,because lie was ot
?'ed to trust them with these pribvileges. He counld
ItaTr the House that this was not his statement. What he
cl„n:d was, that undoubtedly there would be much more
11, e'er in giving Corporations to the large towns than to
sliis,sotall ones. He would beg their Lordships to call to
the line of areoment which had all along been main-
tore,d un that side of the House. He, and the Noble
mint
with whom he acted, objected to Corporations, on
etalmllt of the spirit of agitation which prevailed in-that
Re did not think that agitation could be one-
in t:s° dangerous to the interests of.a country when it raged
large;, community.lll3 of a limited population as when it existed in a
Ile community. His distrust was not of the people, but
•-..,Lotrosted those who agitated the people-=-(llear, hear)
i" who influenced the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
boby'ad stated, and he repeated it, that if the city of
fit were left to a Corporation which was under the in-
Ivsuid, of the priesthood and of lay agitators, the House
//48 " legalizing a perpetual Catholic Association. It
tot 'or that reason he had objected to giving a Corporation
to that great city, and not for the sake of offering an insult
I°4s People of Dublin. This remark, in a certain degree,
vase PPlicable to the other towns of that country. From
reasons he should prefer the Bill as it now stood,
the amendment which the Noble Duke (Riche
ett the cross benches intended to introduce. The
tte Q Marquis opposite represented that this Bill, or
frotsatnendmenes to it, would for ever preclude. Ireland
s.
er'ioYing the benefits of a corporate system. The
41% e Marquis, however, had not explained to the
sltiestse„llo.w that appeared. The whole gist of the argu-
44ea u,alnst the Bill applied to the existing state cf Ire-
~hat' but a happier day should arrive for that country,
tNril as there in this Bill, he would ask, to prevent the Go-
tWisesnt or the Legislature, if the people wished it, from
iever'l°) Ireland Corporations? If that day should, how-
rouli trive, he thought that the House would never be
!le 14d with a demand for Corporations in that country.
Port llovv exceeded the limits which be had imposed
Noble
when he rose ; but he should offer no apology.
t.° hi,ri "le Marquis opposite had rendered it impossible
felit,gs to sit down under such a misrepresentation of the
4te pee_With which he bad addressed their Lordships on a
Vise:usion.
d 14"i-ler" GORT complained of the conduct of the Com-
oeod ons of Public Inquiry in the city of Limerick, and
aBt tit° theY man to justify the Report which they had made
h,r state of that borough. A Noble Lord, in an-
The.acei had been pleased to make a charge against
't Isas4-C.l arl of DEVON rose to order. He thought that
„ti. Nobie v`!Ys better for the House to interfere, whenever
Eller Lord applied himself to what had been said in an-
ise° cc.
ont Goßm
es, e. es should bow to the decision of the
v He had voted for his Noble and Learned Friend's
ptl !,°t, because he had been redued to the alterna-
vekrs"ther voting for the original Bill, or for his Noble
ti cause ialtoendments. He had voted for the amendments,
tons, Put was extremely unwilling to see these Corpora-
eeei,c nto the improper hands which lie knew were open
them.
)(11,4':11114„LVANLEY rose for the purpose of noticing a
114 st upon him by the Noble Lord, the Chancellor
cs,‘l‘nc.; 5t,,,11"Y of Lancaster (Lord Holland) for his
R
kr-"ralis.;s'wo overboard certain opinions with respect to
HoagQtl 4on. (Ld Alvanlad stened wit
1,,: ,0•1 toe the sor peech' of tbeey) Nh listened
oble Lord, in theh
Fos some argument to prove that Ireland
1514114 -4 situation to receive corporations. His Noble
"slts'elttelle.t:siate had also spoke in favour of corporations.
Alvanley) objected not to the persons to be
Ntser'rliedde ohno.t to the mode in which the elections would be
1441 of riot He would say that they wcsettl ireasion a
last Nan and confusion to be witnessed in no country
who The distinction of Catholic and of Protes-
, perle social system—would be disregarded by
eons now popular there. These were his reasons

for the vote which he gave, not that he agreed with th
Noble Earl is thinking- that corporatio►►s might be granted
He would beg the House to look at the measures which ha,
lately been introduced by the Government with respect tt
Ireland. There was the Constabulary Bill, the Bill re

lating to tithes, and the present measure. As soon a:
these measures were mooted a strong party in the country,
and a portion of the press, raised batteries of attack against
their Lordships. Loud lamentations were raised at the
changes which it was supposed would be made when the
were received by :hat House. Their Lor.ls'.lips
,were re
presented as ignorant—as being hereditary statesmen, or e
a species of hereditary tailors. It was also said that theit
Lordships invariably refused justice to Ireland. Ho (Lord
A.) objected to the three measures to which he had re-
ferred; because he . thought they would give power to thos(
already too powerful, and riches to those already too rich.
The Tithe Bill, which converted tithe into rent, gave I:
premium of thirty per cent. from the, clergyman to the
landlord. He believed that neither of thtite Bills would afford

rcllef to Ireland, On the other hand, there were certain
measures Atoll he thought would gteatly tend to tran-
quillise Ireland, and he would ask the House why the
were not brought forward ? 'the Government had already
given notice that it did not intend at present. to bring for-
ward any measure founded on the report of the Poor Law
Commissioners for Ireland. He would not s.iy that the

Government bad acted improperly in this respect, but he

. .
did not know whether they were not inflnenced by a cer-
tain party which arrogated to itself the protection of every
thing Irish. All the measures which the Government had
hitherto brought forward, for the purpose of tranquillizing

. .
that country were no better than waste paper.—( Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Noble Lord
was in error with respect to their per ventage. It was 15
per cent., and not 30.
The question having been put, the Bill was then read a
third time.

The Duke of RICHMOND rose, and said that it was
impossible to believe that, in the large towns of Ireland, the
election would be in the hands of any one individual. He
for one would never admit that a House of Parliament

was to legislate for one individual.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
Was it, he would ask, befitting the House of Lords of
England to legislate, because one individual in that country
possessed too much power ? If their Lordships were de-
sirous of taking away that power be would beg of them to
do full, fair, and ample justice to Ireland, and not to per-
mit that individual to go to the large towns of that country
--to Dublin, to Belfast, and to Cork—and say, " You,
the ten-pound householders, are unfit to have a Cor-
poration, and to manage your local affairs ; and yet the
poor fishermen of Teafort are competent to manage their
affairs, and to have a Municipal Corporation." He
(the Duke of Richmond) objected to the system, be-
cause it put weapons into the hands of dangerous men.
If the electors were to be ten-pound householders no danger,
ho thought, could reasonably be apprehended. There was
the case of Dublin. In that very city the ten-pound

householders had not always elected as their represen-
tative that individual whose name was so frequently men-

florid in that House. His Noble Friend (Lord Alanley)
had said, that whenever a measure was introduced with re-
spect to Ireland a battery was opened against the House of
Lords. He (the Duke of Richmond) thought that the
House of Lords was necessary to the existence of the liber-
ties of the country, and he would stand up for it to the last ;
but he was too old a soldier not to know that whenever a
battery was opened, the wisest course _that could be adopted
was to take up a stronger w
position. He as not one of
those who, because a battery was directed against him,
would open the gate of the fortified town ; but he should
endeavour to meet the attack, and it was because he ad-
mitted that there were some persons who excited the peo •
pie of Ireland that he thought the House ought to be more
careful than ever, and not refuse to sanction the principle
conveyed in this amendment—an amendment brought for-
ward with no political feeling or party view, for in the po-
sition which he occupied in the House, he stood nearly
alone, and entirely unconnected with any party whatever.
—(Hear, hear, bear.) He proposed the amendment be-
cause he thought it just—because he thought no danger
could arise from its adoption—and because be thought it
would reform an existing abuse. He was one of those who
was always willing to repair and reconstruct, but not to de-
stroy. The object of the Bill as read a third time was cer-
tainly to destroy the whole of the Corporations of Ireland
—(Hear, hear)—and he really believed that if the Bill
ever became the law of the land, there was not a single in-
dividual in the country who would believe that Corpora-
tions would ever be given to Ireland. He should read his
motion, which was to leave out schedule A, and to substi-
tute another schedule containing the town of Belfast.
Lord LYNDHURST rose for tha purpose of suggest-
ing to the Noble Duke that it would be impossible to en-
graft his amendment on the Bill in its present form. It
would be quite impossible for the Noble Duke, having re-
gard to the wish expressed by his Majesty's Ministers, to
carry his amendment ; for in that case it would be neces-
sary tore-insert into the Bill 30 or 40 of the clauses, and
to exclude every one of the alterations and amendments.
Unless the Noble Duke was prepared to do that, it would be
impossible for their Lordships to agree to this amendment.
He had merely risen for the purpose of suggesting this- to
the Noble Duke as a difficulty which be must in the first
instance surmount, before he was in a condition to submit
his amendment.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that if their Lord-
ships would agree to his amendment he should not have
the slightest objection to sit even to-morrow to move the
clauses.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that this af-
forded a strong illustration of the manner in which their
Lordships legislated for Ireland. The Noble and Learned
Lord had mysteriously mentioned as a serious objection—
as a ground of action—that this 8111 must not be delayed
in its progress one day, one week, or one month. This was
the. objection stated by the Noble and Learned Lord to
this most important amendment to a Bill which gave to one
individual more power than the Crown had ever enjoyed
since the reign of Henry the Eighth.
Lord LYNDHURST had merely suggested to the
Noble Duke as a point of form, that if he meant to carry
his amendment into effect it would be necessary to do much
more than he in all probability contemplated.—(Hear,
hoar) He made no objection whateve/to the amendment,
and ho stated that he should not do so, because it had al-
ready been discussed and decided in the Committee.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, had the Noble
and Learned Lord no other objection ? If he had not, he
had a right to say that what he had stated was the raal
objection. Phi the Noble and Learned Lord agree in
this ?—(" No," from Lord Lyndhurst.) He thought that
the difficulty in point of form could be removed by insert-
ing a clause entitling the Crown to grant Corporations.
Before sitting down he would, however, say, that if this
Bill were suffered to pass the principle involved in it would
be fatal to the Union, and to the permanency of the empire.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that if it were so very
easy to carry into effect the object of the Noble Duke, it
was a pity that the Noble Marquis had not comp down to
the House with a clause ready prepared.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE should commence by
assuring the House that this amendment was not the result
of any previous communication between the Noble Duke
I who moved it and his Majesty's Ministers. At the same
time he would state that his Majesty's Ministers, in bring-
ing forward the question, had no intention of precluding
themselves from entering into a, inquiry. and con-
sideration, of which were the towns to which it would
be desirable to extend the corporate privileges. That
they considered a matter of fair consideration ; but
what they were most anxious to maintain was the cor-
porate privileges ii) Irehual. Undoubtedly, if Corporations
were to be limited to any smaller number than those sent up
in the Bill from the other House of Parliament, their
Lordships, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Earl
opposite, would give to the great towns, and not to the
small one s, the Corporate privileges. In the large towns
it would he desirable to establish the principle ; and hi
proportion to the amount and complexity of the interests
concerned would be the advantage and sound policy of
establishing in snob places a system which, from time ex-
perience of all time, had in England been found to be
attended with the most beneficial and salutary conse-
quences, even in restraining that spirit of agitation which it
appeared had been the great bugbear which had induced
Noble Lo"ds opposite to sacrifice the ,best interests of
Ireland to their own fears and apprehensions. He would,
even now, at the last hour, express his feeble hope that
their Lordships would be induced to adopt the motion of
the Noble Duke. The Noble and Learned Lord opposite
had stated that the motion would interfere with an object
which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had in View,
namely, that of speansdsiirbsie,thlivSitlhiilltidleowe'notloibittliaeno
othert the all
me House
a
yts as
and alterations which their Lordships bad been
assap(eeadaial
pleased to make in it. That wish was expressed in the fear
that their Lordships would not be induced to reconsider their
former determination, or to admit into the Bill any amend-
ments so important as that which the Noble Duke had pro-
posed, Put, far f'romo7graetteinngd
amendment
weretimet chaatried
might
and
tbe
lost, if the No* i) os m
knoWing that the means would paoy 1)p found for carrying
it into effect, he should reckon every hour well that
vi4§.employed in carrying through the Bill in the spirit of
that amendment; He their agreeodfthe
to the amendment, as it
House a desire to maintain thesd vary anigpt institutions.
The House then divided—
iißnspontents—Present ...... .................. 80
Proxies .......................

-141
g9ptents—Present q7
• • • .
pnxies

-- $2
Majority against Cie Amendment... —59