The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-08 00:00:00

TAXATION.

Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from New-
port, prayinz for the repeal of the assessed taxes.
Lord ALTHORP could not at the present moment pro-
pose any further reducti,n of taxation.
Mr. BULLER gave notice that it was his intention,
when the proper time arrived, to move that the Newspaper
stamps should be reduced to a halfpenny.—(hear.)
Mr. BULLER said the country felt grateful for the re-
duction already proposed on Newspaper Stamps, and
hoped that Government Nvould go as far as possible in the
reduction.

An HoN. MEarnEit under the gallery wished to know
how soon it was intended to propose the reduction of the
Newspaper Duty.
Lord ALTHORP was understood to reply that the re-
duction in question was to ferns part of one General
Stamp Act, and therefore it was intended that that altera-
tion should not take place before the sth of July.
Lord G. SOMERSET wished to know from the Noble
Lord opposite what he intended to do with respect to the
duty on coals ? Ile meant as to the time when the pro-
posed removal of duty was to come into operation?
Lord ALTHORP intended it should be removed in
three months. He did now, however, expect to be able
to remove it sooner, by an arrangement different from that
which he at first contemplated.
REFORM MEETINGS, FOR THE PURPOSE OF
SUPPORTING HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTERS.

The Marquis of CHANDOS, on the order of the day
being moved that the House do resume the debate on
the Reform Bill, said that he had leave from the Gal-
lant Colonel who was in possession of the House to
bring before the attention of the House a subject highly
deserving its attention before the gallant Colonel pro-
ceeded with the debate. The duty he (the Noble
Marquis) felt he had to perform to the country called
upon him to bring forward this subject. It was a
matter of the deepest regret to him to tind that
his Majesty's Ministers, and the friends of the question
they were now bringing forward and so warmly
advocating, were not content with themselves advo-
cating that question, hut were going about the
country, using every means in order to intimidate the
representatives of the people of the country from the pro-
per discharge of their duty.—( hear, hear, hear, from the
Opposition aide.) He, for one, had to state to the
House and to the country that no threat or intimida-
tion whatever would ever bias him, or prevent him advo-
cating that cause which he thought beat for the interests
of his country.—(Repeated cheers from the Opposition.)
He scorned those men who went about with a view to
intimidate—he scorned them because they were not
worthy of the names they possessed—going about as they
were, endeavouring to inflame the minds of the lower
orders of society, and if they could nut get their mea-
sure carried in that House by fair and open means,
showing that they were determined to have it carried by
physical strength. He called upon his Majesty's Ministers
not to allow those meetings to take place, and not to allow
these proceedings to go on.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition, and loud laughter ou the Ministerial side.) Ile
repeated his call on his Majesty's Ministers to inter-
fere to prevent those meetings, and to prevent persons
going about doing anything to influence Members, and not
leaving them honestly, as the representatives of the people,
to discharge their duty consistently with their own views.
The particular point to which he wished to call the attention
of the House was, that on Saturday last a meeting took
place at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, which was
attended by Colonel Evans, and on which occasion (as
was reported in the Morning Chronicle) that gallant
Colonel expressed himselt in these terms :—he bad come
from the coast of Sussex, for the purpose of attending the
meeting, where two Ref .rut meetings had taken place;
and he knew that ten thousand persons were ready
to march up to London to the support of his Majesty's
Ministers if they should be defeated in the measure
now before the Ilonae.—(ll.ar, hear.) He begged leave
most seriously to call the attention of his Majesta's
Minis-
ters to this speech, and wished to know whether they meant
to take any step to repress such language, and as he
had said to put a stop to such meetings. The
answer they might give would bias hint unquestionably
in the course he should pursue, being himself at present
(as he should do) perfectly at liberty to take that course
which in his discretion he should think right.
Lord ALTHORP rose and said—l really do not know
on what ground it is that the Noble Lord says his Ma-
jesty's Ministers are inflaming the minds of the people--
(Hear, hear, hear, hear)--'1 exciting a clamour out
of doors calculated to disturb the deliberations of this
House; for I can assure the Noble Lord that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers are doing no such timing. All we wish is that
the question should be dispas- ionately and quietly discussed.
—( Hear, hear.) 'We are perfectly well aware that the
public feel a very strong and deep interest in the question.
(Hear, hear.) And the Noble Lord must know as well as
any other Member of this Plows, that when the people do
feel strongly upon a measure, public meetings will
take place and violent language will be made use of on
those occasions, but certainly his Majesty's Ministers
wish only that the question should be discussel on
its true merits. --(Loud cheers. )—lf the Noble Lord
wishes me to state what course his Majesty's
Ministers will take in reference to the speech of
Colonel Evans, all I can say is (and the Noble
Lord knows that I did not see a report of that
speech until I came into this House) that I think it a
very violent and foolish speech, but that it is not
one which I think it becomes the Governtneat to take any
proceedings respecting.—(Hear, hear.)--I know very
well that in taking up questions of this kind, on the ground
of a breach of privilege—and I do not know that this
is a case which could be taken up, on the ground of a
breach of privilege, on the contrary, my opinion
is, that it is not—it is necessary that there should
be a very strong and urgent necessity presented in
order to induce the House to act, because in all
the instances in which the House has taken up questions on
the ground of breach of privilege, I do not think the House
has benefitted by it.—(Cheers.)—The Noble Lord has said
that my answer will decide the course which he is to
take. I can only say, that he is at perfect liberty
to take whatever course lie chooses. I can assume
him it is not the wish of his Majesty's Ministers that this
question should be carried by violence and clamour—we
feel that nothing could be worse for the cause than such
violence and clamour.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL thought that the
Noble Lord (the Marquis of Chandos) deserved the
gratitude of all who wished well to the discussions
of important matters in that House, in bringing
this subject before its attention. The Noble Lord oppo-
site had understated his duty as a Minister of
the Crown, in saying that it was not the wish
of his Alajesty's Ministers to carry this question
by clamour and by violence. Ile begged to state that it was
the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to take care that no
• such ingredients were infused into the discussion of the
measure. It was their duty to interpose, for time pur-
pose
of preventing and stopping such speeches as had
been brought before their notice by tl:e Noble Lord
behind limn. He would take the liberty of stating to his
Majesty's Ministers distinctly that there were persons
in this country in all situations of life, who though they did
not believe that his Majesty's Ministers were conniving

at external attempts to intimidate, yet thought it was a
moment in which the Government were bound by every
principle of duty to interpose to prevent agitation that
might be created out of doors. He would not
go the length of saying that Ministers were conniving to
agitatate, but be certainly did consider that it was their
duty to adopt proper means for stopping the agitation
that might he abroad. Not only had persons out
of doors resorted to something like threats of intimidation
(and which no person could be ignorant of who read the
effusions of the Press), but in that very House
something of the same sort had been resorted to. The Noble
Paymaster who had brought forward this measure bad used
!he term convulsion ; and he meant to say, that if this
measure should not pass, Hon. Members would tie con-
vulse I—but not from terror but with ridicule.—(Loud
laughter, and hear, hear.)—Now it was not those who were
on his side of the House who were in the lamentable pre-
dicament of a humble minority, but those who had used the
threat were in the minority, as the Ministers would show
when they were cast up. The Learned and Hon. Member
here got into a considerable heat, was called to order by the
Speaker, and concluded by declaring that he was not
contented with tl e Noble Lord opposite merely saying it
was not the wish of the Government that these violent
meet;ngs should take place, at which such violent langua',:e
was to be used, but that it was their duty authoritatively
to ieterfere to prevent them.
Lord ALTHORP would ke as wi!ling as the Hon.
and Learned Member to maintain the power of the law
in preventing any disturbance or improper conduct when-
ever a necessity should present itself; but at present he

saw none.
Sir E. KNATCUBULL disapproved of the meeting
and of each language ; he disapproved also of calling par-
ties to the bar of that House except in cases of
the most urgent necessity, and in the present
:nstance recommended his Majesty's Ministers to direct
the Attorney-General to take cognizince of what had been
done.

...,..e.
Mr. BENETT thought it mast unhandsome that
such a charge as the present should be brought forward
against his Majesty's Ministers. He was perfectly satis-
fied that the meetings took place spontaneously, and that
petitions were being sent to that House from all quarters
from the very best of motives.
Alderman Woon and Mr. COKE also deprecated
the bringing for ward of this charge ; and the former stated
that at an open hall held in the city of London that day
there was the most unanimous feeling in favour of the
measure of his Majesty's Ministers.
Colonel SIBTHORPE said, the Hon. Member for
Middlesex bad declared that he was perfectly s ttiefied
with the plan of the Noble Lord, and that he, a radical
reformer, was not only satisfied, but that the plan had
gone beyond his expectation. If that was the sentiment
of a radical reformer, what must he his (Colonel Sib-
thorpe's) ? Though the furthest from a radical reformer,
he was perfectly ready to admit that some Reform was re-
quired. He was quite ready to admit that there was
room for an improvement in the state of the represen-
tation; but when he looked at the provisions of this
Bill, which at " one fell swoop" took away the fran-
chise from those who had done nothing to merit the
loss, to give it to others who had no better claim for
its possession, he could not help considering the measure
as one which was partial and unjust in its operation.
Another point which he thought the House had a right to
complain of, and which he was glad hed been men-
tioned that evening, was the excitement wiiich was raised
in the mind of the people on the subject; he did not
intend to accuse the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, or the Noble Lord who had brought forward
this question, as tending to create that excitement, but
that it did exist, and that it was mischievous in its effects,
there could be no doubt. The Noble Lord, in opening
the debate, had certainly seemed to flitter himself that he
intended to act upon a principle, but he (Colonel Sib-
thurpe) would almost consent to pledge his wad that it
would be found, on investigation, that most of those
boroughs which were still to have one representative left
belonged to Whig patrons, while such was not the case
with those boroughs against which sentence of death bad
been passed without any hopes of mercy—(A laugh, and
hear, hear)—and then what was it that the First Lord of
the Admiralty had said? He had threatened that if the
House did not support the Government, Parliament should
be dissolved. But he would tell that Right Hon. Bironet,
that he was not afraid to go back to his constituents, and
no threat at any time should prevent his giving his honest
vote and opinion in that House.—(Hear, hear.)—lf
the Ministry really wanted to something that should
he of benefit to the country, he thought that it would be
much better if they would adopt the strict letter of the
Act by which no person holding place or pension was to
have the right of voting in Parliament. He was a Re-
former, but no Radical Reformer ; but as be wished that
the peop'e of England should have full knowledge of the
notable Bill which the Noble Lord was about to introduce
(though in his opinon it would never pass into a law), he
should not oppose its being read a first time; hut, at the
same time he would not pledge himself in that House. to any
single vote that he would give about it. Since this was a
Bill which was to give the death-blow to one borough after
another, he should like to ask the Hon. Member fur Blet-
chingley (Mr. Tennyson), hew he could take a seat in that
House, become one of the Ministry, and actually go hack
to be re-elected for that very borough, when the Ministry
to which he belonged had in substance declared that the
borough which he represented was incapable of sending
an
honest man to Parliament ?—(A laugh, and hear, hear.)
And since the Noble Lord himself had relied so much
upon the principle of his Bill, it might have been as well
if lie would have waited till a new census could be made
up, before he decided on the boroughs to be disfranchised ;
in which case he was persuaded that it would be found
that many of those which were only to have one arm lop-
ped off, would have had to change places with those
which, according to the census of 1821, were to be killed
outright.—(Hear, hear.) There was also one important
question which the Noble Lord had omitted, and one
which, if the Bill should ever get as far as the Committee,
he himself would take the opportunity of mentioning there.
The Noble Lord had said no one single word on the point
which be (Colonel Sibtliorpe) looked upon as the sine
pia non of a reformed Parliament, and that was the en-
couragement of the liberty of the Press. In his opinion,
it was highly necessary that provision should be made for
all the debates in that House to go forth freely, fully, and
honestly to the public. It would at least have the advan-
tage of showing the public what Members did their duty
and what did not. As there would, he trusted, be future
opportunities of addressing the House on the merits of
the Bill, he would not at that time trespass longer on their
patience.
Mr. TENNYSON—His opinions on this question were
so well known, that he would not have intruded them on
the House if be had not been so pointedly called on by the
Hon. and Gallant Member who had just spoken, and on a
previous' evening by the Hon. Member for Boroughbridge
(Sir C. Wetherell). If he understood the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member aright, he charged him with representing the
rotten borough of Bletchingley—with having received of-
fice under his Majesty's present Government—and with
having been re-elected for that borough after having so ac-
cepted office. Now, with respect to the rotten part of this
charge, it certainly was not fair to make it against him,
as the Him. and Gallant Member must very well know
that it was only in obedience to the law, and not from any
choice of his own, that he had been re-elected after taking
office. Neither could he see how it was any reproach to
him, under the existing circumstances of the representa-
tion of the country, to sit for that borough, though he
knew that he had hut one constituent. His opinions on
Reform were well known ; and the representation that he
had enjoyed he had always used for the benefit of the
people—(Hear, hear)—and so long as he sat for that
borough he would always so use it.—(Hear, hear.)—
Did, then, the Hon. and Gallant Member suppose that
he should shrink from giving a vote consistent with
the principles he had always maintained on this ques-
tion, even though, by so doing, he should be, accord-
ing to the word of the Honourable Member for Calling-
ton, committing a sort of suicide?—(Hear, hear.) He
was ready to do that, and much more, to place the liber-
ties of his country on a permanent, and, as he trusted, on
an everlasting basis.—(Cheers.)—While he was speaking
on this subject, lie might also mention the instance of
the Hon. Member for Durham (and he did this the rather
as the Hon. Member was too modest to make the an-
nouncement himself), who was ready to make the sacri-
fice of three nominations ; not that be had himself ob•
tained, but which had descended to him, and by which be
would lie placing the sacrifice of one hundred thousand
pounds on the altar of his country, to give it an opportu-
nity of rallying against that oligarchy which had too long
overborne it.—(Hear, hear.)—The King and the people
were united. His Majesty's Ministers were at length the
friends of the people. The battle they had to fight was the
bettle of the King and of the people. They would not
shrink from any portion of the responsibility which they
bad undertaken, and the result would be that they must
ultimately crush and destroy that many-beaded monster
which had too long weighed like an incubus on the best
interests and prosperity of the kingdom.—(Cheers.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK had to enter hie protest against
the inference drawn by the Lord Advocate, that because
the Scotch Members had been silent, they necessarily ap.
proved of the measure. He, as a Scotch Member, had
been anxious s,t an earlier period of the debate to offer his

Opinions on the question, but had not been so (orturnite
as to find an opportunity. He was, however, nearly pre-
cluded from entering into the question, became the Noble
Li rd (J. Russ;ll) had not detailed the plan with respect
Scotland. The proposition, however, with ri spect to the
counties of Scotland was most extraordinary, far it seemed
that th y were to be doubled up together where the coun-
ties were not contiguous. He would not .1, ny that vitt of
the present representation was objectionable, but he did
not think that the plan proposed would better it. The
question now before the House was, whether there was
any overbearing necessity for so violent a change in the
Constitution of Great Britain as that proposed by the
Noble Lord ? He denied that there was any ground for
so txtraordinary a char7.e.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He
would not say anything as to the spahrtion or robbery
that had been talked of, for he agreed with the Hon.
Mend). r for Westminster, that the change proposed
was within the power of Parliament ; but the mode in
which that power should be exercised was a matter
of discretion. They had bren asked whether they
would rest upon the Constitution us it existed in
the time of the ship money ? llis answer to that was,
that he would rest upon it as it existed at the time of the
glorious Revolution of 1688. But they' were now called
upon to make as great a change as the one which took
place then. The Noble Lord himself, who was now san-
guine in his measure, had not slways held the same tone.
From 182'3 to 1826, he had introduced an annual motion
on the subject, and he then wilidrew it on account, ac-
cording to his own statement, of the iukewarmness of the
people. When I\lr. Canning stated in that House that
he would oppose Reform to the last day of his life—
(Hear, hear)—the Noble Lord had said that he had
proposed to his friends to make it a party question, but

_ . .
that they had declined.—(hear, he.r.) In 1 S2S there
were no petitions presented for Reform. In 1529 there
were none ; but in that year tile Catholie einestion
Passed ; and those who had opposed that me t cute had con-
tended that the Parliament did not rept, sent the voice of
the people, in consequence of which they had taken every
opportunity of stirring up their constituents and others
to petition the Ilotr.e for Reform ; but he believed that
there were many who now bitterly repented the extrt mite
to which they were likely to be hurried by this Bill.
The Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, groonded his
arguments in favour of the Bill upon the petitions ; but
what did the petitioners demand ?—not this Bill ; the great
majority of the petitioners demanded the vote by ballot.
The principal reason which the people had for demanding
Reform was, that they expected it would lead to a t due-

tio❑ of taxation and rclie;e their distress. Ile remembered

that the Hon. Baronet, the iNletnher for Westminster,
stated a few nights ago, that the Irish people ta anted food
and clothing ; and the Hon. Member for Waterford, tell-
ing them that the repeal of the Union wool I give fowl
and clothing, they were all eager for a repeal of the Union
as a means of getting food and clothing. For a similar
reason the people of England now called for a Reform of
Parham, nt in order to get a reduction of taxation. Re-
form was now to he the specific for every evil. The
country was, indeed, under great obligations to the pre-
sent Government for having disabused it of the error that
it was practicable to Indic any further reduction of taxa-
-.

tion. They had wished that, but when they had been a
short time in office they found it impossible. He feared
that if reduction of taxation were attained through the
medium of Reform it would be attacking the public cre-
ditor; and such a Reform, for such an object, he was
sure the great mass of the people could not desire. The
petitioners, too, asked for the reduction of tithes, and
that they were likely to obtain by Reform. If the Bill
were thrown out, a: he believed it would he by a large ma-
jority, they would, no doubt, be all sent to their consti-
tuents, as the First Lord of the Admiralty had threatened,
and he would then recommend Ministers to go to
their constituents, not as the Right. Hon. Member for
Tamworth said, with that Bill in their bends, but with
the budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. To
justify the ,-weeping measure of the Noble Lord, what
were the evils he printed out? Formerly the pelt evil
always complained of was the overwhelming influence of
the Crown, which was to lie overcome by strengthening
the popular patty. But the Noble Lord had stated nothing
about the influence of the Crown, because he had no le,-
son. During the last four years the greatest reductions in
all the establishments had been made, which, combined
with the general diffusion of knowledge by means of the
Press, prevented that influence ever being now employed
to the detriment of the country. The House and the
country were satisfied that the influence of Parliament
was not now extreme. The Noble Lard had described
the great evil of the present system to be nomination
borough., close corporations, and the expense of elections.
The lest evil was one every Member would be glad to
lessen; but he doubted if the plan of the Noble Lord
would be efficacious for the purpose. He rather thought
that the plan would increase the expense, and would give
greater facility for bribery and corruption than at present.
The principle of the Bill was to establish an uniformity of
suffrage, cutting off the Peels on the one hand, by cutting
off thenomination boroughs, and cutting off the poor on the
other, by cutting off the close corporations, anti the scot
and lot voters. How those electors in Westminster and
Preston would like that he did not know. It wits said,
indeed he knew that it was not individuals who were to be
discranchised, but a class. But what would be the opera-
tion of the measure ? It would not, he believed, he prac-
ticable to deprive those of their franchise ; but if it were,
only one interest would come to be represented—that of
the middle cla,ses. They were told that this was not a
revolutionary measure because the 'mints of Russell, of
Spencer, and Stanley recommended it ; but he recollected
when the Noble Lord brought forward a motion in 1826,
not 90 sweeping as the present, that the present Secretary
of State for the Home Department denounced that as a re-
volutionary measure. In 1821, too, when the then Member
for Durham brought in a Bill of this description, so like
the present that they appeared to have come from the same
shop, the Member for Caine, the present Lord Chief Baron
of Scotland—asd when he mentioned his name who was
always prominent in promoting every rational Reli_oun, lie
thought he had stated a very high authority—Mr. Ater-
, cromby deseribcd that Measure as baring a tendency to re-
' volution. When he found such authority for the opinion
he entertained of this measure ; when he found a similar
Bill, a Bill from the seine workshop, before them, he must
contend that lie had good ground lor calling it a revolu-
tionary measure. Thinking it unjust in tendency as well
as impracticable in its details, he should strenuously oppose
it, and should be for ever proud to have his name in the
list of that large majority by which the Bill would be re-
ie'ted.—(Citeei s. )
An Hoar. Mestant said that this Bill would seriously
affect his private interest, but he willingly sacrificed it to
the welfare of his country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HOPE rose to reply to the insinuation of the
Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, not as a Member
for Seed:nil, but as a Scotch gentleman, that the body of
Scotch gentlemen were satisfied with the measure, but that
Learned Lord was not entitled to infer from their silence
that the measure met their approbation. He would not
enter into the arena with the Learned Lord, whose
splendid eloquence he admired, and of whose eminent ta-
lents and great knowledge he was sensilde ; he would only
pledge himself on the proper occasion, to show that the
measure was not suitable to Scotland. The question might
be considered under two heads, the necessity and propriety
of Reform in general, as an abstract principle, and the
necessity and propriety of the particular measure. He
did not wish to give any opinion as to the propriety
of the abstract principle of Reform ; he would only
say, that all the reasons urged in support of that prin-
ciple by the gentlemen on the other side of the House had
failed to convince him. They all amounted to this, and
this only—that Reform was necessary because the people
demanded it. But if that proved anything, it proved too
much ; for if the people were to dictate Reform, or any
other measure, where was the utility of the deliberations
of Parliament ? If the will of the people were to be im-
plicitly obeyed, and if it were not to he resisted on pain
of the proscriptions and massacres of which the Hon.
meinbw for Caine had spoken, of what use was their de-
liberations? It reminded him of Camhvses, who was
anxious to do something forbidden by the unalterable laws
of the Merles and the Persians, and whose council accord.
ingly found that by one of the unalterable laws,
tv
when they demanded a measure that was to de-
stroythe Constitution, were only acting on a law
which King was to do as he liked. So the sovereign
people,
iil iauthorized them to do just as they pleased. He
would not call their demands clamour, as their opi-
nions on Catholic emancipation had been styled, but
he was prepared to contend that the demand for Reform
was neither so extensive as it was represented to be, nor
likely to be so durable as to excite any apprehensions.
Reform was not looked on as an end, but as a means, and
there were two distinct objects kept in view by two diffe-
rent classes of persons. Those two classes had been de-
scribed by the Learned Lord, the Member for Dundee, as
consisting of the middle classes of the people, and as crazy
Radicals, who looked to obtain prouerty by promoting
anarchy, With the middle classes he believed the wish
for Reform was to procure a reduction of taxation, and if
they bad been led astray by false reports of the salarhs of
public officers, and of the public expenditure, they were
not to blame for their opinions. lion. Gentlemen oppo-
site had much contributed to produce these erroneous im-
pressions. He contended that Reform would not produce
a reduction of taxation; that it would not quiet Ireland,

. .4

which it hardly affected ; that it would ii, r eli e the
tress of the agriculturists, whom it disfranchised; anti
would not disperse the storm that was collecting en the
continent, compelling us to increase all our expenses.
The pl in of the Government neither gave the old Consti-
tution of the country, nor a new one, but a something be-
tween Loth, without the advantages which might lie de,
rived from either. Ile thought, too, that the change in
the franchise would he rm.st pernicious, because it ex-
tended the power of voting to a cliss of men who wt re
neither rich enough to be above the bribery, nor well-
ethic 'tea enough to know how to select the most fitting
persons for their I-eine:qi ativ&. The Right lion. Gen-
tleman, the Member for Windsor (Mr StaLley) observed
the other evening that Reform was like the S)liiiiite
—the longer they delayed the purchase of it, the more
money they must ultimately pry for it, and the less benefit
they could receive front it. Now he would say to the
lion. Member that the world bad derived as little advan-
tage from the Book of the Sybils as we were to ob-
tain from the. Reform to which lie had compared them—
(Hear, hear)—and he certainly felt bound, the,efore, to
oppose the plan of Government as unnecessary, ill di-
gested in its detail, perfectly useless with respect to the
end which it proposed, and at the same time pregnant
with great danger to the country and the Constitution.
Lord I). STUART, although he had heard many bril-
liant and eloquent speeches from gentlemen on the other
side of the House a2ainst the measure, sill he confessed
that none of the arguments ;adduced by them had sitiStied
his mind as to the inexpediency or impolicy oPthis mea-
sure.—( Hear, hear.)—Those who h now c 0..... forward
to oppose this proposition were heretofore adverse to all
liclorm—(Cheers)—but not one of them had, on the
present occasion, declared that he was hostile to any de-
gre of Reform.—(Cheers.)—Not one of them had rais,d
the standard of anti-reform.—(Cheers )—Sornithing,
therefore, h been gained. He admitted that ours was
a glorious and roost noble Constitution ; but still there
were many defects in it, which, if they main: d um.e-
formed, would effe.i.t, the ruin of the entire fabric.—
(Cheers.)---It was said that the proposed rreasvr, would
destroy the just influence of property, an I would overturn
t aristocracy. lie should lie sorry if it were calcu!,J• d
to produce any such effect. Under it property Ivould en-
joy its just idinence, and the Aristocracy their just power ;
but it would not allow to the one an unjust influence, ncr
to the other an unjust power.—(Cheers.)—The eh ctors
would, under this improved measure, bring to the cx,o--
ci.e of their duties, not property alone, but what was of
still greater importance—character and irdependenc.:
(Cheers.)--It would induce gentlemen to reside more in
the country than they did at present, they would go more
amongst the people, and that of itself would be a most
beneficial consequence.—(Hear, hear.)—The expense , f
election's would, by if is plan of lb-form, be greatly lessened,
which every person must admit to lie a very great amend-
• rnent.—(Hear, hear.)—l3ut the most important bem-fit
of all was this—that the measure would conciliate large
masses of the people, remove discontent, anti introduce
peace and satisfaction.—(Cheers.) He denied that this
plan of Reform was extorted by intimidation or popular
clatnour.—(Cheers ) If there were popular clamour, un-
questionably it was popular clamour fouaded on just and
reasonable grounds.—(Cheers.) He would not concede
this or any other measure to popular excitement, if he did
not conscientiously feel that it merited his support. The
Hon. Mom? er for Preston had, on a former evening, de-
clared that the people could not place any de'pendance on
that House ; but he trusted that when the Hon. Member
saw this measure carried by a triumphant majority, he
I would alter his opinion.—(Hear.)
. .

Colonel TYRELL as•ured the House that he would not
occupy its attention beyond a very few minutes. In his
opinion, the debate might to have ended with the speech
delivered by a Right Hon. Gentleman at the close of a In -
mer evening, became that speech was not only unanswer-
able but unanswered.—(A laugh.) Yee, he thought that
the deb its might very well have clmed there: time, how-
ever being given in the first instance for the dying speech
of the Noble Lord opposite. Nothing new could now be
said on this subject. He was sure that a novel idea would
be bought up at a large premium. The Hon. Member
foe Midhurst (Mr. J. Smith) had said, that hi 3 joy
was so great when Ministers brought forward this mea-
sure, that it bail actually taken away his breath. Now
really it had also taken away his (Colonel Tyrell's)
breath, but from a very (Jiff rent feeling. In consequence
of the great agitation which prevailed, this question of
Reform had now excited much greater intm rest in tl•at
House than it had ever previously done. Ile however
did not believe (and he would state his reasons wley) that
the people were so very anxious for Reform as they had
b,!en described. He had recently stood one of the most
severe election contests that ever took place in the United
Kingdom, and during the whole of that conte4, the great
question of Parliamentary Reform was altogether last
sight of.—(" NO, no," from Mr. Wellesley, with great
vehemence.)—The opinion which he (Colonel Tyrell)
might hold on that subject was never, he contended, de-
manded from him during the whole of his canvass.—
(Loud cries of " Hear" from Mr. Wellesley.)—Neither
did he feel it necessary to state what that opinion was.—
(" Hear, hear," front Mr. Wellesley.)—lt did, however,
occur to the Hon. Member for Colchester, whom he saw
at the back of the Speaker's Chair, as an after-thought,
to ask what opinion he (Colonel Tyrell) had on this sub-
ject. That circumstance took place at the latter end of
the contest, and the statement he made to the Hon.
Member then, was precisely the same he should be in-
clined to make to a similar question now. He had then
said, in answer to the question, that wherever corruption
was proved to exist, he would be ready and willing to
move for the extension of the franchise, whether that cor-
ruption was discovered in the town of Colchester or in the
borough of St. Ives.,-(Laughter.)—It was not altogether
unworthy of remark, that this great contest took place in
a county abutting on this metropolis, and that county
unfortunately was, like the sister kingdom, troubled
with two great agitators.— (Laughter. )—One of thesegreat
agitators presented a petition no liter titan last Monday,
which petition purported to state what WAS the opinion
of the people of Essex with respect to Parliamentary Re-
form. The King's representative in the county of Essex
had not attached his name to that petition, and perhaps it
was for thin withholding his sanction that he had been
subsequently cashiered. Probably seine Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite could inform him whether he was right
in his conjecture. lie would tell Government in return,
what his constituents meant by Reform ; they meant re-
duction of taxation, they meant ettonomy, retrenchment,
repeal of assessed taxes.—(Hear.)—The measure proposed
by his Majesty's present Ministers appeared to him oppresa
sive, tyrannical, and revolutionary—(Hear, hear).—aad
he thanked the Noble Lord accordingly for having exposed
it to men of plain understandings, unmystified by cabinet
humbug, or the usual significant obscurity of office. He
could not better conclude his observations than in the
words of the Hon. Member for Colchester, which cer-
tainly should induce them to consider what they were
about; for that Hon. Gentleman, every one well, knew,
was not a person to stand upon trifles, never having
courted the reputation of being "particular to a shade."
—(General laughter.)—The radicals, it should be remem-
bered, were all strenuous advocates for this notable nUnis-
terial plan of Reform, and what said the Hon. Gentleman
of that party no later than Monday last?—" The radi-
cals," tooth he, "by their system would eventually over•
throw monarchy itself, which, after all, is the most pa-
ternal form of Government which the ingenuity of man
has ever been able to devise."—(Laughter.)—For himself
he could undertake to say, that were he thought worthy
of being placed at the head of an administration—(Laugb-
ter)— instead of directing the energies of his cabinet to
the subject of Reform, he should propose to abolish the
as'cssed taxes, and substitute a property-tax.
Mr. SYKES said that Government, in the present
measure, merely designed to take away a certain power
from parties who ought never to have possessed it, and he
therefore felt himselfjostified in promoting it to the utmost
of Isis ability. Their opponents—who, by the way, spoke
the sentiments of others by whom they were habitually
controlled—had called this scheme of Reform revolu-
tionary. Now it was most desirable that those gentlemen
should define the word revolutionary, and explain the ac-
ceptation in which they had hitherto employed it. If to
transfer the franchise from corrupt and depopulated bo-
roughs to extensive counties and important towns were re-
volutionary, then revolutionary he acknowledged it to be.
Ile would wish, however, meanwhile, to be referred to the
statute, whereby Peers were entitled to have representatives
in that House in common with the people, to whom by
every principle of the Constitution it ostensibly belonged.
—( Hear, hear.) He entirely denied time assertion of the
lion. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge, that this
measure was a corporation robbery, and referred him to
the speech of his Learned Friend the Attorney-General
for its triumphant refutatiOn. In fine, he cordially approved
of the policy of Ministers on the important question before
them.
Mr. LONG WELLESLEY said he was himself one
of those gentlemen who, according to the phrase of Hon.
Members opposite, were about to be despoiled of half their
rights, and had, consequently, a double claim to be heard.
A numerous and most respectable body of freeholders,
convened at a county meeting by the Sheriff, had agreed
to a petition in favour of Parliamentary Reform amongst
other prayers which it comprised, and that petition he had
lately had the honour to present to the House. The Hon.
Gentleman's colleague (Mr. Western) had been all his life

an-adeticete for Reform, and de should consider it fair to
put that Member's opinions in opposition to his, as repro"
sent' og, in an tept d degree, those of the county by whie
they were return: d. The Ili ills of this measure were not
to be describel as fivour dile to revolution, when they gulf
sought to restme the national institutions to their pli3""
five comlitien, and to save the country itself from the Yell
evil; whicii the opponents of Reform professed to expect as
the consequences of its concession. He had never been
fuel of wh it was, in these times, designated agitatic'n'
hit it was well known that the most respectable yemusnrY
of Essex had distinctly called on him to rescue their count();
:arum the deeraded st ite of its represent ition, and h
subsequently supported him to the ext oit of 2 000 votes,
in consideration ;if his principles in favour of Reform, rs,
trencliment, and inn-intervention.—( ) No one la.
svet mile more sacrifices than himself when
fir meesures, not men ; but be had already relinquished
'personal considerations, ;nd he should always perseor.a
rectts
in meriting at least the praise of consistency ni
tide of purpose. If he were asked what, in his opioiou,
of the
Lad most contributed to the acknowledged misery'
country, he sh:oild say, widen', hi sitation, that it wto
n,at"
trihutable to the last Government's not having been Ow
ceetoly guided by large and liberal principles of Poli?Y'r
It, h iwever, there were any one point mere than anotne
oa which that party mianimoudy aereed, it was as to the
necessity of Il6was generally, let them differ on other tom
pies as they might. If the tl emselves were "ct
tie univetsil'y in favour of a Reform in the le, 1 eis.ato ref of
shoull be perhaps inclined to question the eepedieneIse
this measure, althouell he would always deny it t°
revolutienary ; but the multitude of petitions which they
had is ceived from all quartets furnished the best Int'la
evidence of the existing state ;if public opinion.
Sir G. WARRENDER disapproved of the pr9e-,
Ref ism Bill, because it was not a measure conferiinb
rielos on the people, but with !sawing and confiscatiai
those rights which they already possessed —(llear, hear.)
He sh•mh) not have objecte I to see repressntatives of Man"
cheater, Birmi ;glan, and Leeds, in that House ; and 1!
was sorry that advantage had not been token of the ce,";
vietion of the corrupt borough of Grampound, to transfer
the franchise I,r Lends ; but he considered it a grits'
of injustice t 4 deprive any body of people of the acetic-
he voter!
f -anchiste without any act of delinquency being proved.!
(Hear, hear.) In that point of vi•w lie had laoked "
the measure for the disfranchisement of the Irish 405 t
freeholders, atel he regarded in the same light the pr°F°:i
s,l to disfranchise his constituents, the potwallorre
Honiton. He had received communications from 51''
of his constituents as were redical reformers, and they
ii
farmed hint that they could not understand why thie;
were to be deprived of their just rights, becausc
Ministers wished to diminish the numbers of the
House. He belied he should be allowed to rnakaola
few olyervatiens respecting a country will wh.'d
he was connected. The Learned Lord (the ist'ir.,e
Advocate)—to whose speech the other night
had listen; ;I with the greatest pleasure,—had stated tha,
the requisition for the Edieburgh Reform meeting Wa
signed by many individuals who had lately become co_0u:
vats to the expedieney of granting Reform. He (Sir
Wm render) felt deep interest, and, consequently paid great
,
attention to whatever took place in the city of Edinbutgat
He admitted that the requisition was signed by the ilie'art
respectable persons, at the head of whom was the pe
of Faculty, now the Lord Advocate ; but ice was not aware,
that any one either attended the meeting, or signed the re:
quisition, who had riot always bean a consistent advocsl"
Reform. A very large portion of intelligent and red
seectable persons did not concur in the petition whicb hat
been sot up in Edinburgh; and of this he was sure, thaj
three-fourths of the petitioners would not he satis6e.
w.th the measure of Reform proposed by the Governer)°
ar.) That measure, he was certain, would destr ,0
,hr power of the landed interest in Scotland. A Petit,
in favour of Reform had been presented from Roxburgh
shire ; but I c was anxious that the House should be iry
foimed that the petition (lid not emanate from the free:
holders, who had the right of voting, but from the hllt,
tors of the county, who were all desirous of obtaining
elective franchise, which was so important and valuable ')
Scotland.—(lleac, hear, from the Ministerial benches.)
The reformers of Scotland were like the Roman r,
former Catiline, who was atieni appetens--(111,-;
heir)—but after whet the House had heard respecting
boroughs of Melton and Tavistock, he could not s'l,
that the reforming party in England bore out the 5:
militude in being sui profusus.—(Cheers from t et
Opposition.) A very unjust cry had been raised &g ale
the Members for close boroughs, but he declared that
'never gave such independent votes as when he was gfj,:r
her for Westbury, and had the Right Hon. Baronet Vile
R. Peel) for his colleatue. He had divided against lis
Right Hon. Baronet on every occasion but one, and tile
was when they both found themselves in a minority' the
declared, that if the proposed measure should pat do
boroughs which would be left in the possession 01
elective franchise would be subject to Treasury influe°
lle had some experience in these matters, and he rad
that the representatives of boroughs with a thousand
upwards of voters, were more teased by importn°'
than Members for close borceighs. He had glade of
calculation of the value of favours asked in the soup)
a year by one borough (we did not hear what bolt°
with a thousand voters ; and lie found it amennt, tee
35,0001. or 40,000/. He therefore concluded that' 101,,
proposed measure passed, these boroughs would all be r,)
pet to the influence of the Treasury Bench.--(11e51;01
Under the present system, men of the greatest pas of
close boroughs; and as an exemplification of
found their way into the House through the titan tof
the trot' the
this statement, he need only direct the attention °repro
House to the exhibition of ability which bad
those
afforded in the course of the present debate, by ,tt.here
gentlemen who were Mersihers for close boroughs' 'dor
was an Hon. Gentlemen to whom he mould Ps' per
lady refer—the Member for Callington, who, ;rite': the
a committee. was formed to consider on questions °
oil
greatest importance and interest to the empire, was al
tot
certain to he selected a Member, asd who was at Prii the
eneaged upon a Committee in attempts to diminia for
expenditure of the country. The Hon. Mernhe.Thee
Bletchingley had attacked him, and had characterize" no'
as a man devoid of common sense, because, upon the 'old
sestation of a petition from Middlesex, be had ventios
to d iutit that the unanimous opinion of the country r'
in favour of Reform. The same accusation had be°lo.
peated against him by that most powerful, that Ine'to 01
just, and most dangerous instrument, the diurnal Pres:el3
the metropolis. lie had been styled a madman, and d
ti
up to tie execration of the country, because be bausilesV
fully and honestly stated his opinions. But he sholnutote
dismeyed by the attacks of that powerful engine, eooaert!
fearlessly to discharge the duty which, as an indePe-se
Member of Parliament, and as the representative of a Cdr
people, he owed to his Sovereign and his country %ID the
however painful it might be to him to differ f° set
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, yet there was a Par3rllB
duty which he was bound to discharge.—(
Hear.) ore
had hearth it rumoured, that attempts of an unfair ° felt
were to be made to obstruct the proposed measure;oio°
he would be a party to no cabal, and whatever gle-o'd
he gave to the measure, he would give to it openly''
the face of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord lIOWICK said that the Hon. Member (Sire('
Warrender) had spoken to the House about the veduellori'i
vote for a Scotch county, but he should like tl,:teiot) o,
Gentleman to say whether it was in the contenlP-,0
those by whom the elective franchise of Scotland t.s.ed bd
gulated, that the right of voting should be e%erch 510
persons net in the possession of the soil, and d:vela
their votes for 1001. or 1,000/. ? The Hen. Ge°l,
had said that he should have no objection to see tta
chise of convicted boroughs extended to manutit
towns ; but he (Lord Howick) very much donbteveprd,
I,l3tePtle°l)
tber the lion. Gentleman's constituents (the potw°,ocee.s
of lioniton) would have any more liking to t
ing than they haul, according to the liom "cif °ono
account, to the present measure. If he (Lord
iiich 10,
were armed with all the inquisitorial powers the IPto
East Retford Bill granted, and were to summon hie'
,t 1
Gentleman to the bar of the House, and requireiteo
state the manner in which the elections of Ø°°llool'o.es
been conducted for the last century, he (Lord
coed, to
thought that the Hon. Gentleman would be col cotios
cording to his own principles, to admit that one_ theft hot
would not be more beneficial for his constituent° put tire
proposed measure of Reform.--(Hear, hear.)--;
solemn and tedious farce of the East Retford
was four years before the country, had bad tlrrs in ° res
that such unblushing hypocrisy as the pretensbn:of Cod
manlier to reform the corruptions of the fienjichpre'Bed
mons was for ever at an end. The burdens or 0(000'
on the country hail not been created within ay of
recent period, but had grown up during a ne°, tuhreir
government and extravaFance. They owed hal/s'oo
to the sinister influence exercised by those W the
power of returning Members of that 1-105,ei0 pilot
that only to warn lion. Members opposite o°`
ors "t II
supporters of this measure too far. If Min. te-olt'
the taunts of Hon. Members opposite, they for Woes,
too much discretion to allow themselves to be;col-do fort°
out a case which won Id render the crY 0004
throughout the country even louder than it at to sec, rite
If the Constitution should remain unaltered, g't. whici A
was there that extravagance, from the effectsoitted"l_, gjle
, country was now suffering, would not be cono.ito itY9
Reform of the constitution of the Houle