The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 4, i&36

Cries of " No," and Ministerial cheers.) I wish the Nobie
Lord and f:e Right Hon. Baroact joy of their new ally. I
will say to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and I say it
'firmly to him, that I do not think he has spoken the sentiments
of his constituents, -and I, humble individual as I am, am
thoroughly convinced that he has not eareed success to-flight
—let him sneer as much as he pleases at me. I give Lim
leave to sneer as much as be pleases—if he thought he could
embody this question in his own little passions and petty re-
sentments. No, .Sir, he cannot do it. I will now conic to
the question that is really before us--the episode was hot of
my intraduction.--( Hear.) I confess that the time is not re-
m to when this debate would have delighted me exceedingly.
as enceureging the hape of a darling 'and-lona-cherished
prospect of mine. I long did cherish the hope of a repeal
of the Union, and but a short time ago the manner in which
this important measure for Ireland has been discussed—the
haltry, miserable, political cant, and political hypocrisy that
ave marked the debate on the part of those who resist any
concession, as it i.; called, to Ireland, would have delighted
me as furnishing another topic to show that this Parliament
is net disposed— thet there was a party its it too powerful to
allow the portion of it that n ight be disposed—yes, I will use
the repudiated 'word—to do ju,tice to ',eland. iam bound,
however, to acknowledge that these are 110 longer my feel-
ings. I say candidly, that Ino longer desire an argument for
repeal. I have seen too much of the English people.—( Cries
of "Oh I" from the Opposition, and cheers. ) I have seen
the chief magistrate of the first city in the world at that bar,
and I have heard him speakieg is the language of freemen,
that which you cannot conceal from yourselves, anti which I
tell you ultimately you dare not resist. I, with the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will " blot out the
Channel, and proclaim myself a West Briton."—( Cheers.)
I have spoken with the sentiment which I entertain, with un-
affected disgust of what I have heard in this deb he; but I
have been consoled ; I have heard the speech, which struck '
me with great admiration, of a Christian and a gentleman ;
I heard that speech in which my Hon. and revered Friend
(Mr. F. Buxton), and I am proud to call him my friend,
asserted his own conscientious convictions, and asserted
them without offence. I. wish the Hon. Baronet oppo-
site (Sir James Graham) would take a lesson from him.
Convinced .as that Hon. Member is of the errors, he being
so conscientiously convinced, he, a Protestant, appeals to,
he relies upon, Protestant truth and upon Protestant jus-
tice that neither shall be tarnished by Protestant persecution.
That speech Ido trust will meet the public eye. • I hope he
wi li not leave it to any reporter, but I do conjure him, in the
name of our common Christianity, to give the public the be-
nefit of the sentiments he uttered, and that they will go with
the weight of his name before them. And is not. I ask, that
name connected with—is it not to be found in--the first and
brightest page in the history of humanity ?—( Hear, and loud
cheers.) Agitation ! Why, if he had not agitated, where
would the negro be now? And yet you taunt, you ridicule,
agitation. Eight hundred thousand human beings pour blesh
sings upon his name for his agitation.—( Cheers.) I trust
they will plead for him to the mercy of that God who will
judge him. Eight hundred thousand human beings will be his
advocates. Anal when he stands, as he certainly will, before
the throne of God, eight hundred thousand beings will raise
their voices and claim mercy for him. They will say for him,
" We were naked and you clothed us, we were hungry and
you fed us, we were in prison and you visited us."—( Hear,.
and cheers ) He would, indeed, be a formidable Protestant
against us. But who is it that is now arguing in favour of
the claims of Ireland ? It is not the angry Christian—
it is not the ill-tempered Christian—it is not one who
when he finds a kindness intended towards Ireland
endeavours to mar it—it is not one who will cast a stain upon
friends—it is not one who when he finds there is another
chance of doing mischief is sure to be ready to aid in it.—
( Hear.) We have heard a great deal to-night from one Hon.
and Learned Member, and yet I must say this, that I never-was
so much obliged as I have been to-night by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bandon.—(Laughter.) He spoke for three hours
by that clock Certainly considering the kind of materials and
figures of which the speech was composed, he could have spoken,
I am certain, for three hours more, and I am excessively indebted
to him that he has spared us that infliction. He might have
been misled by the cheers ; for he had those who could applaud
him in excellent style. I honour him, then, for resisting the
temptation, but my gratitude can go no further.—( Laughter.)
There was a horrible practice in Ireland of packing juries.
He himself has called it "nominating the juries." In criminal
case, the Counsel for the Crown nominated the juries ! Ac-
cording to the old English law, passed iii the reign of Edward,
the power of challenging juries was taken from the Crown.
But my Lords, the judges, who have always ruled that the
statute shall not prevail against the Crown in it; operation,
took care that the same thing as challenging a juror should
continue, by leaving to the Crown the power of " setting by
jurors." In England the practice is almost unknown. An
English counsel does not understand it; but it prevails to
such an extent in Ireland that I have seen fifty-two gentlemen
bid to "stani by" by the Crown in the case of a murder,
which had nothing to do with politics. Eighteen of these
were magistrates, and yet they were all set aside because they -
were staspected of being impartial.—( Hear.) I could men-
tion cases of the most frightful enormity upon this point. I
certainly never thought I should hear an Irish Member stand
up and arraign the Attorney-General for Ireland for having
for the first tune ietroduced the English practice of impartiality
and scorning. to select juries.—("Hear, and cheers.) But there
is another passage in that Hon. and Learned Member's speech
to which I must advert. Will it be believed that this packing-
Protestant of Ireland—that this Kildare-place (I will not give
him any other name) hero, has not only arraigned the Go-
vernment of Ireland, but he has expressed his horror of them.
Why.? Because they would not involve Ireland -in civil war—
because they would not stain her with blood to maintain tithes
—( Hear.) For twenty long minutes he railed at the Govern-
ment because they did not do that which lie thought they
ought to do—shed blood for tithes.—( Hear, hear.) Here,
then, are your odious—(The remainder of the sentence was
lost in loud groans from the Opposition Members, followed by
cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Oh ! that I had an
enemy ! Assuredly I should wish him to act as that Hon. and
Learned Member has acted.—( Cheers and groans.) There
is only another Irish Member to whom it is necessary to advert
—that is the Representative for the Ueivershy ; but then he
is so good-humoured, that I really do not like to say anything
which may disturb tint good humour. The only thing that
amused me was his banhommie, as the French call it, in de-
signating the Established Church in Ireland, the Irish Church
—it the Church not Irish. That is the distinction. He must
go back to the University. if it were only to correct the Dic-
tionary, by putting that which is said to be " Irish" as " Nat
Irish."—( Hear and laughter.) But then we have heard a
good deal from the Hon. Baronet •the Member for Cumber-
land. Ile says that Ireland has got too much justice. He has
ridiculed the idea of justice for Ireland. Why, is Irelend so
fallen that any man will presume to ridicule her appeal for
justice?—(Hear and cheers.) Are we so degraded that any
man can imagine he can with impunity taunt us, because we
ask for justice ?—( Hear) The real question here is, not the
shifting of' the statesmen who are one day on this side of the
House, and are not here to-mer;ow ; it is not whether Lords
or Baronets are now in the drag-cbain, or rather in " the tail,"
or Toryism.—( Laughter.) The Dilly is swallowed up or
swamped, its followers of thirty-six are gone away, while
the masters of the band are jailers on the side of -Toryism.
_( Laughter.) If we look to this question. and its real
hearings—if we do so as statesmen, and not do so as par-
tisans—if we allow common sense and justice tkprevail, and
leave aside that piety which asserts only individual superiority.
and which is somewhat like what an Hoe. Baronet - has
called " the filthy aristocracy of the American steam-boat ;"
if we leave aside that filthy aristocracy which is now assumed
in religion, we can come to decide this question—to decide it
as twesmen. Cries of " Oh, oh !" frinn Opposition Members. )
But first you must understand it—(Cheers froth Ministerial
Members.) That certainly ought to he sonic ingredient iii
the consideration of a question, that you understand it—and
how let inc see if I can make you understand it.—( Cheers.)
The task is. I ain aware, a difficult one, yet I do not despair.
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The agitation of the Tithe
question has been attributed to me. I have not that honour.
It began before 1 was born. It was visited by penal acts.of
Parliament so long back as 17G3. There has been a legal
onachaonism on this point by
,the Han. Member for 'Bandon;
an-1 lie is deservedly the representative of Bandin. a Why-even
in my own time there was written upon the gates of Bandon—
Ilere enter Turk, Jew, or Atheist,
" Anything but a Papist."
(Laughter.) And underneath these lines was at one time in-
scribed— _

\Vheever wrote the above wrote it well.
" For the same is written on the gates of hell."
(Loud laughter.) Let me see, then, it' I can make you un-
derstand it. lt was in 1763 that the first offences agairm the'
collection of tithes were legally noticed. The Hen. Member
for Cambridge has shown himself exceedingly ignorant of the
Christian religion, at least of its temporalities. The Hon.
'Member for Oxford, I should have said—l beg his pardon.
The ignorance of that Hon. Member proves the truth of the
rdage, " the nearer the church, the farther from tha altar."
He lives close to learning, and it pa,ses unheeded by him.
In Ireland, the great body of the tithes, the enormous
territorial possessions, were all the donations, the pious
donations, of the Catholics.—( Hear.) For years before
the English went to Ireland, there were the Pope's
legates here—they . were in the four archbishoprics of
Ireland with legatine power' The tithe system Wa3 not in
Ireland until the reign of Henry 11. It was the English Ca-
tholic priests who imported them. 1173 is the date at which
they commenced. A synod at Cashel announced to the faith-
ful that it behoved them to give tithes to the Church. The
responded to that cry; they bestowed those tithes,
and so they continued until the 28th of Henry Vlll—until
1537. Three hundred years ago, for the first time,ein Act of
Parliament transferred those tithes to the Protestents—to that
species of Protestantism that Henry VIII. avowed It was
the Christian Prince who bestowed thoso,tithes. that attempted
to convince the Irish, by nicking it capitdl felony to deny his
supremacy. Your title is the law—an excellent title, cer-
tainly but if there be not that title, then there has beau spo-
liation ; for those tithes were riven for the saying of mass, for
the invocation of saints, for the prayers for the dead. The
saints you disregard, except it be, indeed, the living saints.
—( Laughter.) You pray not for the dead, but-yiga extrse the
living ; you have suppressed the mass, and von declare it te
i
be impious and dolatrons ; but you !Java talte-n the tithes, and
• you keep the glebe lands ; and yet you come out upon me and
say, thi.:k tithes are not the ereatures of the law. The law

has g►ven it. If iebe not the creature of the law, then I
really come to the proposition of the Honourable !Umber
for Southwark, and I say—give me back the tithes ! I
affirm that the title to the tithes is a good one, because It is
legal,— (Hear.) I affirm that title to be legal; but I then
draw the inevitable consequence, that being the creature of
the law, it is subject to its enactments.—(Cheers.) Hence
the tithe Ives-. In MO, fifteen years before I was born, that
-war had begun. Parliament enacted the severest laws. Bloody

-tatute after bloody statute was passed. Seventy-four capital
:*elonies, on account of tithes, were added to the criminal
code. There were, too, 140 transportable felonies, on ac-
eount of tithes. There was a lu:1 and a cessation for a time.
Now the law, by its severity, created a new kind of tranquil-
lity; but the cancer continued—the evil was untnitig,ted—
an'a it was certain to break out with increased viru ence in
short time. You went on with your enactments, and your tri
hunals enforced them. The gaol was drowded with prisoners;
the vessel was laden with transports, the scaff Ad bent beneath
its victi.ns ; there remained not the memory
.of those who
fell in the deadly strngt,7le, except the green grass that waved
over their grav-s.—( Cheers.) .A!1 then went otiis your own
way. You had coiviction3 enough ; you had with von the
-7:eeutioner, the sheriff, the constable, the gaoler, awl t'.e
judge ; and of these, the latter was the more harsh. Thus
you have been going on for sixty years. The contest lets so
long eontiaued, and every hour it does so makes it worse.
The people did not at first fight against you. Carrickshock
was then unknown to them ; but such as Mooncoio, Rath-
cormac, and Liscarra, which are now familiar to us, because
they are so recent, have occurred a hundred and a thouiaad
times, and stained the soil. of Ireland with the blood of her
People —( Hear, hear.) The battle still continues ; bot there
is a lull now—a cessation. Why ? Because the people have
a government and a governor, Lord Mulgrave, who is disposed
to do them justice.—(Cheers.) What! have we not hail
clergymen enough quite ready, in the name of the Lord, to
go to war for tithes? Have we not Wad attorneys, too, to aid
them ? Have ire not had swearing bailiffs in abundance ; and,
blessings on him, have we not a Chief Baron, who has
in-
vented a writ of rebellion—who has found it, where it was
sleeping—for it waa dead.,--and awoke it into life and activity
on account of. tithes ?—( Hear.) There has not been much
blood shed of late ; but it was hopd for. But will aay man
tell me that next winter can pass over in peace, if you ao not
do something ? I put it, then, to English Members, who.
may vote against this Hear, from the Opposition Mem-
bers.) Indeed, some of them have voted both ways.—
(Laughter.) These are the persons who belong to every
party, as it suits their purpose.—( Hear.) No man has abetter
right to say than I have, that ,there are gentlemen amongst
our adversaries. I boast of it. I conjure you by your pity, I
beseech you by your love of humanity, I adjure you in the
name of the. living God, to prevent the shedding. of blood.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and groans from the Opposition Mem-
bers.) I have heard some people call the Irish savages ; but
never yet amongst savages were taunt and ridicule adopted,
were men called on not to shed blood. Am Ito be blamed
when I adjure you to prevent the shedding of blood ?—( Con-
tinued groans, and cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition
Members.) Men of blood, as you are, then call for blood.—
(Cries of " Order," from the Opposition Members, followed
by cheers from the Ministerial side of the House.)
Sir S. CANNING rose to order. He protested against
the use of such language to those who sat on that side of the
House.

The SPEAKER considered that if the [lon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny meant to apply the term "men of
blood" to those who had interrupted him, he had certainly
used a disorderly expression.
Mr. O'CONNELL-I stand corrected, as far as my ex-
pressiun may be used in that sense, and I shall not use it
again ; but if those were men whom I conjured—deliberately
conjured, to stop the effusion of blood, and I found any man
capable of meeting with a taunt that most humane proposi-
tion—a proposition that would, I think, be listened to were
we on the very verge of the Seraglio ; if, out of this House,
I met men who could meet such a call upon them with a taunt,
I shbuld have no hesitation in designating them as men of
blood.--( Hear, hear, and cheers.) I am not surprised that
the same party who have inflicted so much misery upon Ire-
land, who have been the shedders of so much blood there,
should not now in the last scene only regret this, that they
could not possibly accomplish the shedding of more blood.—
(Hear.) It is not a dream, like that of the Hon. Member's
for Southwark, but a practical plan that is required, to put an
end to those calamities. Look around you and see the situa-
tion in which the country is placed ? Is there a man that will
tell me that he will not agree with me in saying, that some
thing ought to be done for the pacification of Ireland ?
( Hear, hear.) While in this situation, let us see what are the
plans proposed ? There are five schemes on this subject. The
first of these is a favourite of mine. I shall be quite candid
on the subject. I should like to have an absolute extinction of
the tithes—call it extirpation if you will. But if you have
the courage, if you were in the situation to do it, and the
public mind were prepared for it, I should wish you to make
a present to the land of the tithes, and to the manufacturing
and commercial interests of the corn laws ; and let the clergy-
men be paid out of the Treasury. Thus you would put an
end to the contest. Ido not expect you to do this. I have
not, upon this subject, the ardent expectations of the Hon.
Member for Southwark. My opinion is, that the first thing
you have to do fur Ireland is to make conscience perfectly
free, and this by not calling upon one man to pay for the cler-
gyman of another. I arn'for the voluntary principle. I re-
peat it, in order that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
may have full time to take a note of it—l am for the voluntary
principle. He says that I- must be favourable to a Church
Establishment : I deny it. The last state that has fought its
way to liberty is one in which there is a Catholic population.
I ask him, then, what Church establishment thereis in Belgium?
What Church establishment is there in France, unless the
payment of all clergymen by the State be called an establish-
ment? What Church establishment is there in Hungary?
But 1 come back to the last and best example : What Church
establishment is there in Catholic Belgium--(Hear)? I deny
it ; I utterly repudiate its necessity. Let him tell me then of
my religion. I answer, I know it better than him.—( Hear,
and cheers.) I am, however, of opinion that there was a
period in history when Church Establishments were useful.
When the Church was not under the State, but above the State.
It was then the refuge of democracy, the shield of alio people.
That period is long since gone by. My conscientious conviction
is that a Church Establishment is no longer necessary. The
next principle is this : I now put this to you, and I hope the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) will condescend to take a
note of it. I say that upon your own principle you ought to
give an establishment to the seven-eights of the people—to
the Catholics of Ireland. If we had a union such as it
ought, to-be that should be your duty. In Scotland, you en-
deavoured to force upon them yeti:. own Establishment. You
tried it there, and for one hundred years there was the greatest
turbulence, war, and crime. Scotland was your Ireland at
that period.—( Ilear, and cheers.) Scotland determined upon
resisting you—her people took to the mountains—they drew
their broad claymores—they gathered on the hills ; they en-
countered you at the bridges, they stopped you at the rivers;
they stained the stones with your blood and their own—you
often conquered ; but they never abandoned the strife, until
they secured for themselves not merely liberty of conscience,
but an Establishment.—( Hear, and cheers.) And now I ask
you, why is not Ireland to he treated in the same way?
The people of Ireland repudiate an Establishment;—( Hear,)
.—and, as a Catholic, as sincere in my belief, as my respected
Friend is in his, tell you, with as much solemnity; as without
profaneness one can speak for himself, I absolutely repudiate
an Establishment for my religion, because I know that itwould
lose its expansive power within the trammels of the State.
For my religion I wish to employ ar,gument,*and I wish it not
to be stifled in the pride of an Establishment. I therefore re-
pudiate it—l leave to you your Establishment, I require it not
But if it be:so left to you, what ought your Establishment to be?
You have rectors and curates in every parish in 'lreland*.
Why is there to be this enormous staff for only 800,000?
Does not this alone sufficiently demonstrate that there
is a surplus Hear, hear.) What arc you quarrelling
with us for, if there is no surplus ? Ii you ask us what
we are asserting ?—I answer, a principle !—(Loud cheera.)
Ours is the conciliatory principle : yours, the repulsive prin-
ciple. Is it the Catholic Church—is it the Catholic religion
that wants the surplus ? No. It is wanted for instruction.
I agree with the [lon. Member for Southwark, that the people
of Ireland will not believe that tithes arc at end by calling
them rent charge. If you will insist upon forcing the Pro-
testant religion in Ireland, it is right you should pay fur it ;
and the Protestant Clergyman would not have been at all
dissatisfied at the arrangement because the money came from
the Consolidated Fund; he would have taken his 771. 103.
and pocketed the affront, even though he had the trouble of
going to the Treasury for it.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
But that Bill was throwh out, the collision was commenced,
not by us, and let the shock fill on their shoulders who pro-
voked it.--( Hear, hear.) The House of Lords threw out
that Bill. Pinions may suppose perhaps that they threw it
out because it contained a appropriation clause ; but the
case was not so, that Bid contained no appropriation clause
at all. But the history of their absurdity is not yet comolete.
Could any human imagination conceive anything more
ridiculous, more arbitrarily absurd, than this proceeding
on the part of the House of Lords ?, My Bill .-rave the Pro-
testant clergy 771. 10s. per cent. I call it my 'Bill for short-
ness : calumny attributed it to toe at the time, and I certainly
had a hand in it ; and this Bill, which gave the Protestant
elergyman 771. 103. per cent., was iejeeted by the Lords.
Well, whet took plece afterwards ? Next session the Bill of
the Government of the Right Hon, Member for Tarnworth
came before the house, 'said this Bill proposed to give the
Protestant clergyman only 74/. per cent., underbidding me,
the Popish agitator, by 2/. 103.—( Hear, hear.) The
example being thus set by the Right lion. Baronet, was fol-
lowed by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, when he
cams into office. He proposed :9 take off 21. 103. more, being
72/ 103. fur the clergyman, and so the pill went up to the
Lords. 'What did the House of Lords do with it? The
House of Lords, who refused my Bill which gave 771. 10A. to
the clergyman, accepted as muct of the Noble Lord's Bill at
gave him %/. 10e, and struck out the appropriation clauses
of the Bill, which than was lost altogether. What has been
the consequence of this? There has been another Dutch
biddiege4 A laugh),—and the clergyman% Aare is to be re-
duced to On. per cent. —( Hear, hear.) The Nobi Loral op-
posite opposes the Bill of the Government, and what is his
Abjection and what his object? lie wants to obtain, not piety
and Laowledge, but gentility for his cievgyFgen; be must
have nothing het gentlemen, and of course in his estimq.43 he
has calculated the expensee of the dancing master.—(Laugh-
ter.) Oh I Sir, is it not too had WO Ireland should be sub-
jeet ip tbis protracted cruelty, this ingenious terturing, ema-
nating from il;pse who pretend to be her guardians.l There
sits the doctor (pointieg to the Opposition bench on which
sat Lord Stanley)—there lie site,look at him—he has pre-
pay&ej A dose for Ireland—she must swallow it—it may not do
ter much grAd peFhaps—true, she may die under the
io
No„. „I:,t is the NoiAe 11%14 plan
.4et es go
over his plan, He proposes to :lye the elargirroin D per
enrt g l!' but lowailOvii it Ole must.—( Loud laughter and
he )
cent. of their tithes, thus at the outset, by the live, underbid-
ding me by 2/. 103. But I put it to the House and the goe4
sense of the people of England, whether that is net too much ?
I put it to there whether Q,400,000 meu shall be spade to pay
for the religion of 700,000?-4 Hear.) is it fair that the aeri-
e, _
cultural industry of the whole nation should be oppressed for
the advantage of a few? There are those who lAve

1 ienee who are dote: mined to melee use of it to preserve in
ieir p'aees the present Ministers, who have honestly under.
!.Ikea the cause of Ireland, and to defend them from the ii,si-
limes attacks of those who seek to displace them.—( Cheers. )
What will you do then ? You may make war on Ireland ; brit
I tell you this, Ireland will not make war on you in return,—
ind further, I tell you this, that if you do wage war on Ireland,
you will net have the, people of England to back you —( Loud
cheering.) What is more, you will have the people of England,
almost to a man, against you.---( Continued cheering.) The fact
is this—there have been normal schools of political knowledge
est iblisised throughout the country, and in all the cities
ind t )wns of the kingdom. I have been to visit them ; I have
shaken hands with the pupils, who crowded round me as if
I were a beast in the Zoological Gardens.—( A laugh.) You
'augh ; but they are there acquiring knowledge, which will
:each them to laugh at your absurdities, and to esteem you
as you deserve. The spirit of science and of knowledge is
gone abroad amongst the people of England, and the conse-
pence is that the " No Popery" cry of their predecessors
has (1.% indict] away into a soft wailing from the mountains
of Cumberland.—( A laugh.) The Hon. Member foe Brad-
ford, with all his piety and purity, will doubtless be astounded
to learn that the Corporation of Bristol, the Tory Corporation
of Bristol, have sent up a petition for the emancipation of the
Jews.—( Hear.) I have now, I think, said enough to impress
upon the House my feelings on this subject ; I have peeved cut
my whole soul before you, and in the warmest language of my
heart I have intreated you to do justice to freland.--,( Cheers. )
I call upon you now to do it, if you be statesmen, and not erne
pyrics, if vou be Christians with Christian charity in your
bosoms, and not mere. sectarians and pretenders to religion ; if
you believe in that retribution with which honest men ever visit
those who have been guided in their actions by the mere trick
of party spirit—or if, above all, you believe in that more awful
retribution which shall be visited upon you by that omnipotent
Bellies who must some day hence judge the motives and the
secret intentions of us all. (The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man sat down amidst loud cheering, and then immediately rose
to quit the House.)
Sir R. PEEL rose, and before the cheering had subsided,
said, " I hope the Hon. and Learned Gentlernan is not about
to leave his place ?" (Mr. O'Connell who had now reached
the bar, bowed, and left the House. Loud and ion-protracted
cheering from the Opposition benches followed upon this oc
eurrence.) The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to the follow-
ing effect :—lt was certainly much more agreeable to one ris-
ing as he did after the Hon. anti Learned Member to put for-
ward what few observations he had to make in the absence
rather than under the eye of so distinguished an individual ;
but as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had in the course of
his speech expressed his solicitude that he (Sir R. Peel)
should take down a note of what he had said upon a particular
point, and challenged him to answer it, he thought he could
charge the Hon. and Learned Member in this very first act
after closing his speech with an attempt to deprive him (Sir
R. Peel) of an opportunity of acquitting himself of the
task set him. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had com-
menced his speech by passing a warm eulogium on a speech
delivered the other evening by the Hon. Member fbr Wey-
mouth. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, moreover, ad-
vised the Hon. Member for Weymouth not to trust his speech
to the reporters, but to publish it himself, and now, for the pur-
pose of adding the force of contrast to what he had said, was
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman gone out to report his own
speech.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) [Mr. O'Connell, how-
ever, re-entered the House soon after this, and resumed his
seat.] ut to come to the question before the House. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (continued the Right Hon.
Baronet) was exceedingly severe upon the Hon. Gentleman
beside me, whom it is no part of my duty to defend.--( Laugh-
ter.) It is no part of my duty to defend him, because I think
the Hon. Gentleman in the speech which be made attacked
the Bill of the Noble Lord near me as much as he did that of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman..—(A laugh.) The Hon.
and Learned Member accused the Hon. Member for South-
wark of entertaining extraordinary notions with respect to the
contemplated appropriation of tithes touching the public uti-
lity. Now, in his opinion, the notions of the Hon. and
Learned Member himself were about as extravagant as those
of the Hon. Member for Southwark.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proposes by his
Bill to return the tithes to the land, to give the corn-laws to
commerce, and to pay the clergy out of the consolidated fund.
Why really that was as wild and extravagant a scheme as any
uttered by the Hon. Member for Southwark. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman said this would settle the tithe question
—( An observation of dissent from a Member of the Ministerial
benches.) Not effect a settlement of tithes ! Then why seek
our acquiescence in it now ? What were the arguments by
by which it was recommended to the House ?—( Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) The Hon. and Learned Member
called upon the House to effect the settlement of this ques-
tion ; and asked—" Do you wish to put an end to the scenes
of bloodshed which are now every day occurring in Ireland ?"
His (Sir R. Peel's) answer was, 44 We do ; " but what hope
had they of succeeding by accepting this arrangement, after the
comments made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman Alison
this very measure ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Bill pro-
posed to devote 368,0001. to the payment of the paro-
chial clergy in annual payments, which payments must be
made in the nature of a rent charge, to be paid in the first in-
stance by the landlord, but afterwards to be obtained by him
from the occupying tenant. The Bill made the Protestant
Church a national Establishment ; but the Hon. and Learned
Member in commenting upon it, had said that there ought to
be no establishment of the kind.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman called the Protestant party dealers in.
blood, and had detailed, as was his wont, a variety of scenes
of rapine which had occurred in Ireland of late years—the
widow and her orphan, and others of a like kind, and with
these horrible details lie worked upon the feelings and the
passions of all who heard or read his speech. He would 'ask
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, further, whether in case
the payment of that rent charge should be opposed he would
be prepared to enforce the late? Would he call out the mili-
tary, if necessary, to carry it into effect ?—( Hear, hear)—and
if he would do so, then he, the I-lon. and Learned Member
himself would be responsible for the sufferings which would
emu-. for the cries of the orphan and the widow.—( Hear.)
In short, if the Hon. and Learned Member had succeeded in
showing that the tithe receiver in justice should he deprived
altogether of his right, what, he would ask, became of the
rent-charge ? Last year the Honourable Member most par-
ticularly stated that he would insist upon ample precau-
tions being taken to favour the increase of Protestant concre-
tions and to provide for the adequate church accommodation ;
and now he declared that he should withdraw his support from
the Bill, unless an immediate inquiry were instituted into the
state of education in Ireland. Now, if the Hon. Gentleman
held himself prepared to withdraw his support from the Bill,
unless his demand for this inquiry were conceded, what would
lie do if the inquiry were granted, and turned turned out to be
unsatisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Member then
went on to argue the principle of appropriation. lie said,
" If you contend that there is no surplus, why object to the
disposal of that which you argue does not exist." He (Sir
Robert Peel) would reply 03 the lion. Member, that to dis-
cuss hypothetical principles as to the disposal of any particular
species of property, under such and such cases, was dangerous
to the stability of all property.—( Hear, hear.) This was the
third June, by the bye ; and up to this period no great pro..
stress bad been made by the House in any practical matters of
importance. The clap-traps of last session were now held up
to scorn, and so perfectly satisfied were the Government
with the present state of affairs throughout the country,
that they were content to hold up as a panacea for all pos-
sible evils, a certain contingency for the use of the future.—
(Cheers and a laugh.) If there was no surplus to deal
with, he had to accuse the Government of practising a gross
delusion upon the people of Ireland. The speech of the
Noble Home Secretary was important as unfolding the ge-
neral views of the Government, and the principles they were
disposed to adhere to In regard to this question ' • that of the
Noble Secretary fir Ireland on account of the details, or, as
the Noble Lord himself, with his usual jocularity, had styled
it " the dose of calculation," which it set forth ; and that of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, as coming from the
representative of a considerable Irish constituency. The
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland said, that although the
principle upon which he relied in bringing forward his Bill was
so important, that he was almost inclined to disregard calcu-
lations upon the subject. "yet he found his principles of phi-
losophy so confirmed by his figures, that, fortified by his philo-
sophy and his figures, be was determined to etated his ground
and the Noble Lord then went on to examine the Bill by phi-
losophy and arithmetic,—( Hear, and a laugh.) The Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire had gone on step by
step throughout his speech to show that if the clergy
whichpergy otpfhaertine
Irelandn:ei-
lt
s
were adequately provided for there would be no surplus.
Leorid,untlametionSeocfrotthaerypi.fionrciptllice i
lg'hvee Na
(le
short x
sure was founded, and then having made a declaration against
i said
the t
he
CoercionN o e L
1, 4
or 4o which
in t the
same
a youme spirit brought
oiiitii i in
ae
n o
which
and
egu
in thei
figures as of very little importance—( Hear, end Opposition
cheers)—the Noble Lord flew into a declamation on the course
which he stated we were about to take. " On the same
acquiesced
o unedssc,e" d
n you resisted corporate reform, and -in which • you have misgo-
vernedToon appropriate thesame
a groundsc n
salrmee spiritlandfor),s.oeuvennoewenrteurruieses
surplus, and I cannot condescend to argue the question when
placed in this its true light."—( Hear, hear,) Such was the
declaration of the Noble Lord. But was the principle a new
one on which this measure professed to be founded ? IJO
'
thought until the Noble Lord hld spoken that the principle
at of
the alopste(oi bytl his Majesty s Government was that the first
claim n time revenues of the Church was for the purposes
of the Church.
H
I, I thought," said the Right Hon. Gen-'
tleman; " that on that view the claims of time Roman
necessarily
fact yhe excluded not only
"
here, Catholic
bait
j, populationc
oo v
cwrenrine
untilexist-
-(ear, and Opposition
mice of a surplus was ascertained.
PlleerS.) "But,"
said the Noble Lorcl, " yot4 talk of 200/, per
annum for the Protestent clergyman, and fen supplying the
spiritual- wants of Protestants ; but you omit from yoUr calcu-
lation the 6,500,000 Roman Catholics I you consider them as
aliens in blood—es subjects of a hewer class than yourselves I
you totally forget their elaims on the Church reveselee,n Sir,
for myself', I disclaim entertaining any such view with respect
to my Roman Catholic follosvecountrymon. I have always
said thig 4nd I repeat it, that civil disabilities having been re-
moved, I admit no plell distinetions between any of the classes
of his Majesty's subjects,--(Ghee".) They stand in that re-
spect upon a perfect equality. But if I admit that the • first
claim on the revenue of the Established Church is the spill-
tUal wants of the Church? have a right to exclude the claims
even ef..tbe 4,599,6013,(.mi1n pathql!q•-4,2fllPPition cheers)
only aeobt the lgitiMacy qt their claiQ until htp
claims of the Ghtricfs of Mnfflan4' in relequ are satitfied._
( Cheers.) I only say don't sattsi'y thole Ouiini;frey
et source.
Iq 1533, the Noble Lord ( Stanley's) scheme for Church Ite-
form was pecpoied, It was that scheme by which extensive
arid'imPiortant reforms were effected. The Noble Lord (Stan-
ley) who WO 11:4 eeciettry for frolp.adi is now considered as

- - .
entertaining extreme opinions on the subject of the Irish
Church, and on the inalienable nature of the revenues of that
Church. But was that Bill proposed by the Noble Lord ?
No, but by Lord Althorp, who, as if to give more emphatic
proof of the fact that it was not the Bill of an individual, but
the measure of Government—(hear, hear, from Lord Stanley)
distinctly declared in proposing it, that " it had been agreed
that this measure should be brought forward as measure of
the Government ; and it hal been thought best on the present
occasion, as on former occasions, by a person who filled the
situation in the- House that he filled, rather than the particular
Minister with whose department in the Government of Ireland
the measure was more especially connected."—(Opposition
cheers.) The Noble Lord is the course of that speech having
explained the details of the measure, continued—However
great the differences of opinion may be as to the right of Par-
liament to apply the property of the Church to the purposes
of the State, both those who think it has no right to transfer
it, and those who think that it has, all are agreed, I think,
in this, that the first claim on the property of the Church is
the Church itself.—(Loul Opposition cheers.) These were
the opinions adopted by the Government of 1833, and ex-
plained by Lord Althorp. It may be the duty of the State
to take measures for the general instruction of the people ; it
may be the duty of the Legislature to provide the means of
moral instruction in a country circumstanced as Ireland is ; it
may be proper to provide some mode of supplying instruction
on a national principle, precluding the prevalence of any spe-
cial religious doctrines from such a system ; but if an este-
•blishmeat is kept up at all, it should be for the purpose of
maintaining the doctrines which it was established to enforce.
What are these doctrines ? The doctrines of- Protestantism,
as opposed to the creed of the Church of Rome.—( Opposi-
tion cheers.) Is not the Protestant religion introduced by
law into Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Is not the King sworn to main-
tain the Protestant religion in Ireland ?—( Loud Opposition
cheers.) Does not the Act of Union guarantee its mainte-
nance? And shall Ibe told that the question of the mainte-
nance of the Protestant religion and Establishment in a por-
tion of the empire with respect to which its continuance is
guaranteed by the compact of the Act of Union, should be
argued in the same way as the question whether the Protes-
tant Clergy should be sent to Hindostan ?—(Cheers.) If
there be one established religion, the inculcation of its doc-
trines—let the Noble Lord say what he will—is an essential
condition of it—(Cheers)—and it cannot exist without it—
( Renewed cheers.) If it be not our duty to. inculcate the
especial doctrine, it is our duty to abolish the Establishment.
—(Cheers.) If Lord Althorp's principle be adhered to,
namely, that the first claim on the Church revenues is the
supply of the spiritual wants of the Protestants, we are entitled
to see what is really required to satisfy those wants. If, how-
ever, that Noble Lot d's principle be correct, we are bound to
inquire, not what may be requisite for upholding the Protes-
tant Church, but what may suffice for affording moral and re-
ligions instruction to the people. But how does the Noble
Lord satisfy the conditions of his own propositions ? If it be
the duty of the Legislature not to support the Establishment,
but to devise means for promoting the moral and religious in-
struction of the people, why does he consent to postpone it ?
(Hear.) If it be his duty to the people of Ireland to take
from the revenues of, the Protestant Church, why does he
make a boast of a plan which is to depend upon a contingent
surplus, and which must take many years before it can be
carried into execution ? The Right Hon. Baronet then pro-
ceeded to state, that he would make no allusion to the fund
for the building of churches, but entreated the Noble Lord's
attention to a scrutiny of his calculations. The Noble Lord
proposed that 1,250 benefices should continue in Ireland.
He had, with a view of consulting the feelings of the people
of England, given, as an average amount of income for each
clergyman, 2951. a year: Of this 2951., forty-five pounds
were to be supplied by glebe and consequently 2501. would
remain to be supplied by tithes: so that the total revenue
which the Noble Lord, according to his plan, would re-
quire for the parochial clergy would be 368,338/. Deduct
the glebe—for that calculation included glebe, which
amounted to 56,0001.—end the sum which the Noble Lord
would require for tithes would amount to 312,000/. There
was an error in that calculation. He took the Noble Lord's
own figures. The Noble Lord estimated ecclesiastical tithes
at 511,500/. ; he thought they only amounted to 507,0001. :
deducting the 321 per cent.,which would amount to 166,000/.,
from that sum, and there would remain 345,000/. The tax
on benefices was 7,300/., which would reduce the amount of
ecclesiastical tithes to 338,200/. The Noble Lord proposed
to make the average amount of the clergymen's income 250/.,
which was a large reduction on the present sum of 450/. The
curates were to be allowed 100/. ; 751. of which to be paid out
Of the general fnnd,.and 25/. by the clergyman. Still though
drawn from different sourcos, 100/. a year must be drawn from
tithes. The fund thus created would amount to 25,000/. The
amount of tithes had already been reduced to £338,000
Take from 25,000

Remainder

A. X 313,000

The Noble Lord said not a word about re-opening composi-
tions, or the purchase of glebes, which, in his opinion, would
amount to 20,0001. He had already reduced the sum to
313,0001., and if he were correct in the statement of what was
to be allowed for the purposes which he had just stated, it
would reduce it to 293,0001. But it was but fair that there
should be added to this 10,0001. ministers' money, which,
upon his own showing, would raise the sum calculated upon
by the Noble Lord to 313,000/. Out of that sum 1,250
benefices were to be provided for at 250/., which would
amount to 312,000/.—( Cheers.) By deductions made from
the Noble Lord's own Bill he bad reduced the sum to
312,000/., and instead of there being any surplus, he had
shown that upon► the tithes there would be a deficiency of
lO,oool.—(Cheers.) Where, then, would the surplus be sup-
plied? Ile would tell them—from the sales of the Church
lands.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord had estimated the ave-
rage extent of parishes in Ireland at ten. thousand acres,
the area of an English living at 3,460 acres, or five square
miles. Now, it did not at all follow as a necessary conse-
quence that the duties of a clergyman were in proportion to
the number of its inhabitants, for a small number scattered
over an extensive area would impose duties much more bur-
densome than a larger number over a smaller extent. In Ire-
land the Noble Lord computed there were 10,000 acres in a
parish comprising an area of thirteen to fourteen square miles.
Now he would prove that estimate to be altogether incorrect ;
and if he did so, what confidence could be placed in such
statements, and what became of the conclusion that the Irish
clergyman was assigned a sufficient stipend for the duties which
he had to perform.—( Hear, hear) There were 20,000,000
statute acres in Ireland. Divide 20,000,000 acres by 1,250, the
number of the benefices, and there would remain 16,000 sta-
tute acres for every parish. The Noble Lord's estimate was
10,000. He had proved that there was an error of 6,000
acres in it.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had also said, that
the limit of the area was fourteen miles. But there were 640
statute acres in a mile ; and divide 16,000 by 640, and they
would find that the Noble Lord made an error of about twelve
square miles, when he estimated the area of the parishes in
Ireland at 13 to 14 miles. The average was 25 square miles
instead of 14.—( Loud Opposition cheers.) Now he asked,
whether the maximum of the clergyman's stipend, 250/. a
year, was sufficient compensation for the performance of such
duties? He had shown that the scanty pittance could not be
supplied, if they thought of holding out those expectations
which could never be realized. The dioceses of Cashel and
Tuam comprehended nearly one-half of Ireland. They com-
prehended about ten millions of acres. Now, in those two
dioceses there were only eleven livings, the income of which
exceeded 300/. In Cashel there were 469 benefices, in Tuam:
103, making together 572. There were 423 churches. Now,
out of the 572 benefices, it would follow from the provisions
of the proposed Bill that only 489 should in any case exceed
2001. a year in value. The emolument might be only 100/.
This, however, he must and would say, that he had so much
confidence in the Noble Lord, that he was persuaded that
while that Noble Lord remained Chief Secretary for Ireland,
and had the power of raising those 1001. livings to 2001.
he would never fail to exercise that power.—(Cries of
Hear, hear.") But be that as it might, there were in this
large portion of Ireland only eleven livings the value of
which was from 300/. to 400/. He well knew that in that
part of Ireland the Boman Catholics greatly preponderated.
in number. Still he never could consider it fair—he never
could consider that it would justly consult the spiritual wants
of the Protestants of that country, that. in nearly the half of
Ireland so scanty a provision should be made for the clergy.
_lf, indeed, it were proposed to increase the emoluments of
the Prote'stant clergy in Felt-ilia out of the Consolidated Runt,
it might be a question to be considered. But the Protestant
clergy in Ireland were already in possession of the requisite
property. To reasonable reform in the Church in Ireland,
to the prohibition of sinecures, to the curtailment of pluralities,
there could be no rational objection. But what was the fatal
necessity which compelled the incomes of so many of the
Protestant clergy to be restricted to 2001. ? Was it a ne-
cessity entailed by any engagements into which his Majesty's
Government had entered ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Or Was it
a necessity entailed by, any proof of the utility of the proceed-
ing ? Two hundred pounds a-year I Why, if he looked at
the salaries of public Commissioners, if he looked at the
salaries of the Commissioners of the poor laws—if he looked
at the salaries 6f the Commissioners for consolidating the cri-
minal law, he found sums of 5,000/., of 10,000/. a-year. Did
he say that those salaries were too large ? No. But he
said there was no kind of proportion whatever between those
salaries and the emoluments of the members of a profession
of at least equal respectability.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The pro-
fessions of the Bar, the Army, and of Commerce were princely,
.as compared with the profession of the Church of Ireland.
Why let the emoluments of the ministers in that Church be
compared with the emoluments even of the door-keepers of
the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) By the report of
the Committee it appeared that Mr. Pratt, the principal door-
keeper, received annually 911/. I which the Comnirtitneceiprael-
canimended that he should continue to receive. Mr.
Williams received a salary of 5001., which also it WLI4 recom-
Mewled ho should oontinne tq receive, The Committee,
.however, recommended that after the retirement of Mr.
Pratt and Mr. Williams, the salaries of the door-
keepers
should he only 4001, 4-your, The pi
assistant to the Sergeant-at-Arms had a salary of 4151. There
could be no objection tq that. Thu amount of remuneration
was for the purpose of securing., far situations of trust, the
services of respectable men, There were also four messen-
gers, who had salaries of 300/. each ; and two with salaries of
2001. each. That was to be the future establishment of that
portion of the officers. Now what was it that was expected
from the Ministers of the Established Church in Ireland ?
Was it too much to ask that at least they should have as large
an allowance allotted to them Is that P 1149• d hX tb9 rnmen-
gers 11114 door-keepers Commons The
Hon. and Learned MeMbei fni;TippCr.ary prophesied the hap-
piestmaie sz7l4of;orr;
!I:146 0;4.141;U Alt.hf,rillgistlarr9llpecirop,
Go seendollye
ina hisn
said the same thing previous to Catholic manciption. On
that occasion, being asked whether he thought, if the Ro-
man Catholics in Ireland tverc.*l444 tq TO civil rights

with the Protestants, it would be in the power of any man
to collect large assemblies of individuals for the distur-
bance of the public peace, the Itotiourable and
Learned Gentleman expressed his persuasion that in the event
supposed no stieh power would exist, for that it was only the
sense of injury which had stimulated the people of Ireland to
any acts of disorder or violence. Being further asked, whether
he thought there was any probability of an attempt being made
to dissolve the Union, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman re-
plied, that he considered any declaration of that kind as mere
rhetorical flourishes, and not with any actual view to termi-
nate an union which in his humble opinion, was indissoluble.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also stated his conviction
that neither tithes ern- the question of the Union would ere:•
again be the subject of discussion and agitation in Ireland if
Emancipation were passed. On the occasion alluded to the
lion. and Learned Gentleman declared, and the declaration
was an important one, that if Catholic Emancipation was
agreed to, all pretence of setting the interests of one portion
of the people of Ireland against the interests of another por-
tion would- be taken away. There was one individual, how-
ever, whose conduct might fairly have been expectes', not t
falsify the Hon. Learned Gentleman's prediction. That indi-
vidual was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had declared to the Committee, that
at least he could answer for himself, that if he had a fair
chance of rising in the profession for which he had endea-
voured to qualify himself—if the exasperating impediments to
advancement in that profession which grew out of his religious
creed were removed, he should give himself no further concern
about politics, but should devote himself exclusively to his pro-
fessional avocations. He ( Sir R. Peel) confessed that he la-
mented that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not been at-
tentive to his reputation as a prophet, at least so far as to abstain
from using his talents in Ireland in every description of excite-
ment and exaggeration with respect to the tithe and other ques-
tions.—( Hear, hear.) Was it to be believed that the object
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary was
merely to obtain from the Irish Established Church a sum c.f.
50,000/. a-year ? No. His support to the measure proposed
by the Noble Lord was founded on the fact that, being a eon-
mentions Romar, Catholic, he believed that, coupled with the
reduction of income, it involved a principle fatal to the cha-
racter and even to the existence of the Protestant Church of
Ireland.—( Hear, hear,) And so it did. Lord Althorp said
that the Church of Ireland should be independent. The No-
ble Lord's Bill said that it should be dependent on that small
portion of the Privy Council known by the name of the Com-
missioners of Woods and Forests. Every future incumbent in
Ireland was to be a vicar only, while the Roman Catholic
Clergy were to remain in their existing state. Hereafter it
would be impossible for any minister of the Established Church
in Ireland to claim or to fulfil the functions of a rector. The
good sense of the people of England must determine whether
he, and those who thought with him, were warranted by the
circumstances of the case in refusing to be penis_ to the mea-
sure proposed by the Noble Lord. For his own part, he viewed
what was taking place in Ireland with reference to the Church
with the greatest concern and anxiety. So far was he from
exulting at the success of the processes for recovering tithes,
that alt such feeling was entirely hist in regret at the circum-
stances which prompted such proceedings. He solemnly de-
clared before God, that of all public objects, that which he
most wished to see accomplished, was a total cessation of every
thing like religious discord in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) If the
House thought that the Noble Lord's measure would be bene-
ficial, they would overrule the objections to it, and adopt it.
But if they thought that it was not a satisfactory measure—if
they believed that it was essential to the best interests of Ire-
land and the empire that the ministers of the Protestant
Church in Ireland should be placed in a condition of de-
cent competence—if they looked forward to the time when
the Protestant religion would be further extended—if
they relied for that extension not on the severe operation of
penal laws, but on the bland influence of the divine precepts of
the religion itself—if they believed that the progress of light
and knowledge would secure a gradual and general adherence
to its pure doctrines, they would not betray that religion by
pretending to be convinced by arguments, the transparency of
which was so manifest, or by allowing themselves to become
the dupes of calculations, the fallacy of which was so easily
detected—(Hear)—they would not consent to injure the Pro-
testant Church by making the Protestant clergy stipendiaries
paid by Government--they would not consent to strike a fatal
blow at civil liberty and true religion, by destroying the inde-
pendence of the Church, and degrading the character of its
Ministers. —(The Rt. Hon. Bart. sat down amidst loud cheers, )--
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
intend to trouble the House at any length ; but there were
some statements made by the Right Honourable Baronet
the Member for Tamworth that appeared to be very much
beside the real question. Was it right for the Honourable
Gentlemen, that on an important question of this kind, he
should occupy himself and the attention of the House in in-
stituting comparisons between the salaries of the door-keepers
and messengers of the House of Commons and the clergymen
of the Church of England? There was no analogy whatever
between the two cases which the' Right llon. Baronet had
put, except, indeed, it was drawn from the provision. in a
former Bill, respecting the 5/. parsons of whom they had
heard so much. He thought the Hon. Baronet would have
occupied the attention of the House with other and better
considerations, and amongst these was the ;question- of remu-
neration, which must be taken into account in this and every
future Bill on the same subject. The great principle
which they had to guide them in such cases - was to ap-
portion the remuneration to the service done, and where
no duty was performed, there should be ne remuneration. If
the principle advocated by the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Tamworth were to be adopted, the House would be
guilty of a crime if they did not apply to the Consolidated
Fund for additional salaries for the poor English clergy, some
of whom had not a tenth part of the amount allotted to the
door-keepers. With respect to the opinions imputed to them
(the Government) which had been expressed by others at that
side of the House, he begged to remind Honourable Gentle-
men that his Majesty's Ministers were responsible only for
their own opinions and their own arguments ; but a fair con-
struction had not been put on them. The Hon. Member for
Tipperary had expressed his approbation of tho voluntary
principle ; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had no
hesitation in saving that he was entirely against that
principle: The Right Honourable Baronet the Member
for Tamworth, had ' said that his (the Chancellor . of the
Exchequer's) Noble Friend had shown a diminished attach-
ment to the Protestant Church in Ireland. Now he did not
understand that his Noble Friend had laid down any new prin-
ciple for the application of Church property. He had saki in
his place, on the 30th of July, 1832, That that property was
too large for the Church's own good, us had been proved by
experience, and that eerie° of it might be advantageously spared
for the education of the people, and so he said in the present
day. Lord Spencer also had said in that House, on the
17th of June, 1834, that the Irish .Church property was
greater than what the Establishment required, and that
so far from injuring it by taking a portion from it for
national purposes, it would be benefitted. The first de-
claration was made whilst his Noble Friend set beside
the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, and the
other by his the (Chancellor of the Exchequer's) Noble
Colleague after the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire
had withdrawn from the Cabinet. When he heard the
Right Hon. Baronet speak of tl.e new lights they had been
compelled to adopt, and of the engessemorits into which they
had been forced to enter, he could not refrain from charac-
terising the representation as most false. and malicious.—
(Cheers.) It was contrary both to their duty, to their con-
sciences, and to the Monarch whom they served, He would
repeat, that a more disgraceful and calumnious charge—one
more destitute of any foundation—had never been uttered
within the walls of Parliament against any set of Ministers..._.
(Loud cheers.) At that late hour lie would not obtrude much
further on the attention of the House. lie could not, how-
ever, avoid saying that he differed altogether from the Hon.
Gentleman opposite as to the probable amount of surplus.
In the amount of glebe alone he could show that the giallo
land of two provinces alone exceeded the estimeto of the
Right Honourable Gentleniatt opposite, and that the total
amount of the value of glebe Lunde was 86,000/. Now
with respect to • the prophecies of the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, the Member for Tipperary, which had
been so much alluded to, it .s.hould be recollected that those
prophecies were put forth in the year 1825, during the admi-
nistration of Lord Liverpool, when all the claims of the
Roman Catholics were opposed.--( Hear, hear.) It would
be as just to say, that agitation in -Ireland was thereon:
sequence of the postponement of those claims, as that the
prophecies of the Honourable and Learned Member had
not been fulfilled. Now he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) had heat d another prophecy at the time of the passing.
of the Reform Bill, and that was, that the guns which had
been tired on that day on which the Reform Bill had received
the Royal assent, would on the next day on which they should
be fired be shotted. Now this was the prophecy of one whe
knew something about the shotting of guns. He hoped
his- Noble Friend would persevere and still bring in his Bill;
But he had some doubts. It was not an usual way for a
Member who was really desirous of bringing in a Bill to
move it as an instruction, The Right Hon. Baronet o
'site (Sir James Grelintn) ppo-
had said that the Ministers were
spell-bound hot were the people of lint:land spell-bound also?
Was it fair to represent to the people of England that the
Church was in danger by this measure,' and that the Pro-
testants of Ireland were to be deprived of moral and
religious
- instruction? He was not afraid to meet the people of Eng-
land on this point, Ile was wilting to pay the ministers of the
Established Church; but then, after paying them, he would
'apply the surplus to the improvement of the morals and ro•
li,gion of the great mass of the people. A reselniion stood
recorded in the journals of the noun, iliat any surplus
after providing for the ProteetenS eiergy should be so ap-
plied. The Goyernmelit were only endeavouring to per-
form the qty which that resolution bud imposed upon
them. They were not influenced by any party motive.--
' ( Hear, and oh, oh, ) Was it fogs a party purpose that the
Church commission had been appointed ? It was true that
the Right fien, Gentleman opposite had been turned out of
office upon this question, but the present Government had
only done what they had promised. The Right Hon. 13oro-
net had been the victim of his own policy, and upon his fall
the present Ministers had- risen, and they would have been
disgraced had they not adhered to the principles upon which
they had come into office. As an Irishman and a Churchman
he was most anxious to give tranquillity to his country., acid se-
curity to the Established Church.—(Chec;sin#..) 11* was
no idle boast. His deaseet 'llituce44 lvcro bound, up with the
intoretA 1.4 A ?torhitry,
irPeg thatthc Same credit
would lie given lo nrfor sincerity in tllie respect as he was
ready to accord to other gontlereeP. M a man who had some
stake in irelend,' hp; would say *at %hero could he no repose
in the etAttrltry until this question NYA3 settled. If 60,0001.
annually, paid from the surplus of Ohurch property, were to
give peace to Ireland, why quarrel with such an application of
it ? The people of irefieet ought to have an interest in the
Church roverty of the country. This would be the only

means of saving the Irish Church. The appropriatwa eta se
was not objected to ; bat it should be recollected that on a
former occasion the Tithe Big was obiected to without the
appropriation clause, and if thy stopped now a still
tfoncession would be denrinded hereafter. He thanked the
House for the attention with which he had been listened to,
and ha.,l he not beinel it necessary he should not have tres-
gr:ater
passed on them so long.—(Cheers.)
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
P.,r the original nitrion
For the amendment 261
:Majority for Ministers... ......
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter past Three o'Clock.