The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-04 00:00:00

Parliament; and that the Noble Viscount, not -wishing for the
overthrow of the Established Church, although .he was willing
to do that which he knew would be a In'avY blcn v and a great
.
discouragement to it, was, therefore, wiiii;sg t eme for ward
with a measure like the present, which wou Lava the effect,
to a considerable extent, to pot don these spi.vits ar,mnd ttirn.
The Noble Viscount should have boldly come fora a•d :out
avowed this, with the view of saving the Chum. `l,fr, tilt ti e
dangers which surrounded it. The Noble Viacou.lt, how-
ever, lai given no such opinion ; h • had said nothing in Vin-
dication of the extraordinary conduct which he had pt. rst. "d.
in justification of the most discreditable violas o of prh. ^ipto
that had ever characterized any Government. This, 11 vs..
ever, was not a proof cf inconsistency on the part of teu
Noble Viscount and his colleagues ; he gave her 1 lajes:y'.l
Ministers the fullest credit for perfect consistency, for
their only object appeared to be—tLc Polar star which
they had ever is view was—how they could coofenee to
maireatin themselves in their offices.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
He recollected that a Noble Lee] in the other House wie4
lately reported to haves Lid that if the pesple were true te
thsmsslves tl.ey ultimately must prevail, and the House .of
Lords must su c amb and must yield to the voice of the neol,les
sooner or late.. That Noble Lord now, however, said tt at it:
was true that he maintained the same opinion as he did before,
but the most prudent course now to pursue was to adopt this
measure, as there was no chance of getting the Hous • of
Lords to agree to 1.:.; views. On this ground he would .-e-
-commend that they should take what they could get ; that
although they must abandon their own principles, contained tie
the resolutions which they had induced the House of Commons,
to adopt, they must now pursue that course which was recom-
mended formerly by those opposed to them. He (the Earl of
Wicklow) had no hesitation ie saying that their proceedings
carried their own disgrace with them, and that there was not
sa black a page in the history of party in this country as the
trans:ctions he had alluded to, and which would go down to
po stts't• ,r with this character. He spoke warmly on this sub-
jest, although it was a matter of not six slightest consequence
to him who w.-s in place—it could not possibly make the
slightest differ:nce to him who ssas the Ainister of the
Crown, and it never could be otherwise ; but' v,-hen he saw
such conduct as that which he had described pursued by
Ministers of the Crown, he could not help wish;s4; to see
the destinies of the country placed in more creditab:e )I:lnds.
With respect to the measure itself, he was prepared to
state that he was willing to adopt the general pin-
ciple of the Bill, but some of its clauses were founded in
the rankest injustice. If this Bill had passed, as it might
hare dote, in 1835. they ,vould not have been called upon tor
pay- any arrears of tithes ; therefore he contended that the
Mini /eft; of the Crown were responsible for letting this weight
fall on 'lnt country. This part of the Bill involved the great-
est ijust;':e to all chsses directly interested in its operation—
namely, the la: downers, tithepayers, the occupiers of the
soil, and the clergy themselves. Again, in this Bill it was
stated that one million was to be devo'ed to the clergy, where-
as upwards of 100,0001. had been taken away for public works.
If, therefore, the sum of one million was voted by a former
Parlinment to the clergy of Ireland, it ought to be given in its
integrity. When the Bill giving this million was before Par-
liament. l;e distinctly stated that if it was intended to Cell upon
the clergy to repay a shilling of this million, he would' never
consent to sanction if, Ho denied that that measure was brought
forward with the view of benefitting the Protestant clergy, ;0.-
though it wai! pretended that this was the case: but it was in-
tended to mil sv e Lord Althorp from the difficulty in which hehad
placed himself, stating in the House of Commons that the pay-
ment of tithes should be at an end in Ireland within a certain day.
Before tie siit down he felt called upon to allude to the lan-
guage used by Mr. O'Connell out the third reading of this
Bill in another place. That HonouratJe and Learned Gen-
tleman said that he now announced to the igietat supporters of
the Protestant Establishent in Ireland that teey never aimed
so great a blow at the temporalities of that Church as by as-
senting to this Bill. Let them lo 4k at the meetings which
were taking lace—tumultuous because so large —theolighout
Ireland on this subject. If the battle were now to be between
the lanaurd and tenant, a worse set of Whitebovs would arise
than they had ever vet heard of in Ireland. This was the
declaration of an individual who was a strong supporter of
her Majesty's Government, and he believed that he was the
supporter of the Bill, and he declared that the system of
Whiteboyism that would he established under this Bill would
be such as had never arisen before. For his own part he
trusted that this Bill would produce beneneficial effects, but
he should be glad to hear from her Majesty's Ministers
whether they believed it would really prove beneficial to the
country.

,Bisliop of DERRY was sat'sCed, if this Bill had passed
in times cf trat,9uillity and in calmer scenes, that manylament-
able events that :lad taken place 'never would have occurred.
He had recommeudesi the House to adopt steps for the set-
tlement of the measure the last time he was there, and then
stated that it would prove most beneficial to the clergy of the
diocese over which he preskte:l. On that occasion the Noble
Earl then at the head of the Government was censured by a
Noble Marquis, who took an active part in the proceedings of
that House, and who was distinguished for his rhetorical
powers, for having made an 'unworthy selection in appointing
him (the Bishop of Derry) to the diocese which he then
held ; and he stated that he would greatly increase the num-
b:r of Dissenters in his diocese. He was almost ashamed
to tr,,uVe the House with this subject, but he was happy to
say thet those Dissenters who, they were told, held priests
and deacons in utter abhorrence no longer did so, but many
of them now constantly attended divine service, and the sons
of some of them were at present useful and exemplary
Minis-
ters of the Church. In addition to this he heard'from cre-
ditable sources that in the diocese sonic dissenting chapels
:were thinned every Sunday by the congregations attending
divince+ service in the Church, and they did so because they'
found t;ie Clergy avoided those topics which were most oh-
jectiooanle, and confined themselves to their religious duties,
which, if strin`ly attended to, must prove beneficial to all.
He could not but think that the CLcrgy would be left in a
wretched condition but for the kind I,:elinrcs, the unparal-
leled generosity evinced Towards them by i,he representatives
of this lenevelynt country. He thought tn.at a little too
much energy had been displayed by the Noble Earl (the
Earl of Wicklow,) and the Nuble and Learned Lo:d (Lord
Brougham,) whilst they urged their views on the attention
of the llouse.

The • Earl of MANSFIELD was prepared to make every
clnrcbsion of opinion and prejudice with respect to this Inca'
but he confessed that he could not be so liberal as to
make J C9neessiori which must infringe upon the property of
others, pa.fieularly when he. could not help fearing that the
result of all tti.:”r concessions would not be a safe and durable
peace, but a trere i ollow truce.--( Hear.) The first objec-
tion which be bad to tt.;:. 1.3111 was, that it would cause a gnat
deduction from the in comes of the Clergy. He was willing
to give for security of colleen an 10 per cent, but no more.
FIB tsould apply the folnciple of .:nmmutation where all the
memb?r§ of the community were of the same religion, and
where they were of diff.rent religions this regulation was the
more called fur, but he could not go the length of assenting,
as f•theri had done, W a departure from th,:t justice which
ought to be obseived to all parties. The Noble Viscount had
stHtei th it the loss on the ar:ears would be ?0 per cel;`., being
made up by a sum to be paid by Ow people of Englami, who
might naturally fee I .:luctant to be taus mulcted whet-Obey
knew that an expensive Co. cratricut was kept up for carrying tte
laws into execution. For his own part, he should not complain
it' tfaiAluillity were gained, and that was the object which in-
duced the consent of the clergy to this Bill. But he con-
fessed be had fearful doubts of its success. He was justified
in this suspicion nut only by the sp'sech which the Noble Earl
(the Earl of \%icklow) had read, ald which might be sup-
posed to have been delivered in a moment of excitement and
iiritat:on, but by the deliberate letter procemling from the
same party, and published within the last few dqs, in which
the writer (M O'Connell) stated that the anocialy of an
enablishmeat for the minority nos still in existence, and
could not give satisfaction, no opinion in which h.• was
afraid " the wish was father to the thought."_( Liar.
he..r.) He would now advert to the opinion which we
N,ble Lord the Secretary at War had expressed in another
place, and on which he should not dwell if it had not pro-
ceeded from a Cabinet Minister. It was that Noble Lord's
()pinion that this measure could not be final—that i: was
impossible that the Catholics of Ireland could be satisfied
with it. The Noble Lord, in fact, incorporated himself oils
the Roman Catholics, and adopted their sentiments ; and Ito
.'need that, in roint of honour, or in some such vicar, he
could not a4ree even to a large sum being bestowed on edu-
ration to be distlbuted armeigst lay and clerical persons for
the purpose of moral awl rel;gious instruction, unless it were
taken from the fa .(11 of the eitabliAed religion. The Nahle
Lord had also t'eclartal his conviction that the Protestant Es-
tablishment could not be maintained. He was net disposed
lo cavil with these opinions, for they in part coincided with
his owa. He ha Ino right to ask for the information vAich
he was about to s rk, but he put it to their Lordships %%limiter
it would not be satisfactory to hear from the Noble Viscount..
in b.'s own name and that of his colleagues, whether he differed
from the Noble Lord the Secretary at War, or participated
in the epini ins which that Noble Lord had expressed ?
( Hear,) The Noble Lord (Howick) was not so important a

Member of the Cabinet, lie meant no disrespect, as others who
were connect, d uith the Government of Ireland. They
wabted something, he thought, to neutralize the letter
sent be the :tio'r!e Secretary of Ireland to the Chairman
of a tithe meeting. Ile did not mean to say that
the Nol.ole L trd subscribed to the opinions of that meeting,
but it, give their proceedings a Government stamp, and he
augmented their importance.—( Cheers.) It was true that the
applupria ion clause was withdrawn from this Billr ;h it nhear.)
more luu•.d. M plzwo it than justice did.—( Hear,
But he believed toat the intention of introdueiing!wa that pern-
r a.b iplc was ait andoned. They agreed_ to h
the ,aerdic..s hi. 211 w:•rc made by the clergy; but Bill through
ut if it was not
ealcii:i:tA to ditpe3se intestine religious dissensions, was it not
aPI yk• r !hit body.of men to make such a sacrifice?
AR 00. d was to obtain the declaration of an opinion
though it might not reconcileabiimts to the Bill, would
professed object.--
"I' c him some h• p, of thus otttoa,rtn
old.fasbioned not to have a
par i
( Hear, bear, hear.) lie
w-asonding• with declarations, but he
ttlity for conducteorre
did Inipe to dies from the Noble Viscount the avowal that he
was r solved to suiport the Protestant Established religion in
i'u‘tarquii of ANS DO WNE had listened with atten-
t., ens akays disposed to do FO, and he was always re-
the spe, ch of his Noble Friend who had just sat
and he lutist in the outset begin by conceding to him
tio, if this .Dill were to be tried in all its parts by the princi.
pies of the strictcst justice, and that if they made up their
:ninds to admit no remedy for a great and acknowledged evil
but on which in every portion of it should proceed upon the
.trietest rule of right, they should hardly be able, to reconcile
to this measure ; but it was because from-the. ex-
of many years, the discussions on this subject, and the
productjon of ntany plays for extinguishing an evil which had
FrezetAq to au incr;asing magnitude, whilst their Lord.