The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-09 00:00:00

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self more of the gratitude of that people, had he, when he
was Secretary for that part of the empire, introduced a similar
measure to the present Bill, rather than have lent the aid of
his name, character, and_ station, to the upholding of Pro-
testant ascendancy.—(Cheers.) But, no ; so long as
Protestant ascendancy was to be maintained, and so long as
oppression and injustice were to be the governing rule for
Ireland, so long was it the political interest of the Noble

Lord, and those with whom he acted, to preserve the old sys-
tce-n, and not only not to abolish corporations, as be now pro-
posed, but to leave their abuses unredressed.—( Loul cheers.)
He had given to all the arguments that had bee.a brought for-
ward in opposition to the present Bill the closest attention, and
the best consideration that he could command, and he saw in
them nothing that affected in the slightest degree the princi-
ple of the measure. The objections which had been urged
were in his mind applicable only to the details, and, lie thought,
had much better have been reserved for the committee than ad-
vanced at the present stage of the proceedings.—(Cheers.)
The Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
(Mr. Lefroy) had said that he did not know what the principle
of the present Bill was; but that, as far his own views went
upon that part of the subject, he was decidedly hostile to the
system of self-election. Now, if the Hon. and Learned
Member was hostile to the principle of self-election, he ought
to support this Bill, Tor one of the most prominent provisions
was to destroy that principle—(Cheers)—and if the Hon. and
Learned Member did not know what the Bill contained, as he
professed, was it not possible that he might find its other pro-
visions equally worthy of his support as its destruction of the
principle of self-election?—(Cheers..) As to the power which
it was said the present Bill was calculated to throw into the
hands of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin (Mr.
O'Connell) and the Catholic clergy, he was not prepared, he
confessed, to ground any argument on a bare assertion like
this; but, supposing the assertion to be true, would not that,
he confidently asked, be an additional argument in favour of
the measure ?—( Cheers.) Could it be doubted by any per-
son who had attended to the modern history of Ireland that
any stigma or insult (dared at the present moment to the Irish
nation would give great additional and increased power to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded to ?—( Cheers.) Was
not the Amendment of the Noble Lord, then, directed to con-
vey the one and to increase the other ? Did it not stigmatize
the Roman Catholic population of Ireland as unworthy of
being intrusted with power ; and did it not by that very de.
nunciation give a vast increase to the influence and power of
the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin ? But
what, on the other hand, was the Bill of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters calculated to accomplish ? Why, it was designed
and calculated above all other measures to conciliate the
people of Ireland, and thus disarm the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin of the alarming power
he now possessed. _ He said alarming, because it could
not be otherwise thaw fearful to see a state of things
existing in any country as could give such powers as that
Hon. and Learned Member possessed into the hands of any
private'individual. As to the Catholic Clergy, he could not
see any power which the present Bill gave to them which they
did not possess already. He thought, on the contrary, that
the Bill would deprive them of their present influence in a po-
litical sense ; it would allay that fever and irritation upon po-
litical subjects which now prevailed amongst all classes, clergy
as well as laity ; and be felt justified in predicting that this
measure would have the effect of taking the sting out of all
disposition to evil in either class.—( Cheers.) Before he sat
down, he would entreat the House not to be scared from its
propriety • by gloomy predictions and frightful images that
had been foreboded and conjured up by the Hon. Members
on the other side of the House. Those Hon. Gentlemen
were like the sailors in pursuit of the phantom ship, who
thought of nothing but looking forward until they struck upon
a rock.—( Cheers.) He hoped those Gentlemen might es-
cape the rocks towards which they were heedlessly steering
their course ; but, should it be otherwise decreed, he hoped at
least that they alone would be the victims of their false pride,
and that, should they sink, those on his (Mr. Stuart's) side
of the House might not accompany them into the abyss.—
(The Hon. Member sat down arnid loud cheering.)
Mr. G. KNIGHT felt it his duty to give his most cordial
support to the amendment of the Noble Lord near him, He
had occasion to sec that the English Municipal Bill had not
worked with such complete success as had been anticipated,
how could it possibly be expected that a similar measure could
work well in Ireland? He did. not think that it would be
for the welfare of Ireland to destroy 120 long-existing commu-
nities in that country, and to remodel them according to this
Bill. Would to God that England and Ireland were on an
equal footing, and that Ireland was as well prepared for altera-
tions in her institutions as England was ; but, alas it was not
so. Ireland was divided into two great . political parties, and
everything in that country was looked at with a political view.
For his part be was not disposed to place political power in the
hands of either of those parties. He would not plant the heel
of the Roman Catholic on the neck of the Protestant ; and nei-
ther would he plant the heel of the Protestant on the neck of
the Catholic. He should not like to see Orange lodges abo-
lished one day and Catholic Corporations established the next.
—(Cheers.) He was for a rigid and impartial administration
of the law. If this were a measure calculated to relieve the
people of Ireland from want or misery he would view it in
a very different light ; but would it in any degree lessen
the state of beggary in which they at present unhap-
pily existed ? Certainlk, not. It would only leave them
still a more easy prey to designing demagogues. The pre-
sent was a question upon which a man of talent, indepen-
dence, and integrity, must think of nothing but his country.
All they ought to hold most valuable was at stake. He
dreaded that at one time or other some mistake of this kind
would break up his connection with Ministers and drive him
from the opposite side of the House. He could no longer
enjoy peace of mind, did he not find himself seated where be
was. —( Chteri.)
Mr. ORD would direct his attention more particularly to
the speech delivered last night by the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite, the Member for Launceston (Sir H. Hardinge.)
He stated at the outset that his experience last year before
the Intimidation Committee would not allow him to come to
the conclusion that the Roman Catholic clergy did not exer-
cise political influence on religious grounds. The Right Hon.
and Gallant Officer, therefore, came to the conclusion that the
Irish people were disqualified from properly exercising poli-
tical rights, inasmuch as they were strenuous sectarians. Now,
the Right lion. Baronet himself was present when the evi-
dence upon which he relied was given. He had also, as he
informed the House, perused it since with attention. How,
then, could it have happened that he read only some parts,
which favoured his own views, and entirely omitted others ?
( Hear.) He read, for instance, some parts which releted to
Father Keogh, and which were proved by the reporter. But
he ought at the same time to have stated that they were dis-
avowed by Father Keogh himself. Even had Father Keogh
actually used the language attributed to him, his disavowal of
it was a proof that lie felt such sentiments were not agreeable
to the prevailing feeling of the Irish people. This would be
some proof that the state of Ireland, as regarded the influence
of the clergy, was not such as it was represented by the Right
Hon. Gentleman. One more instance, for the purpose of
showing the spirit in which the Gallant Officer made his 'ex-
tracts for the purpose of supporting his cause. The Right
Hon. Gentleman said that on a recent election for Clonmel,
a Gentleman of high respectability, a Quaker, who was in
the habit of giving employment to no less than one thousand
persons, was shamefully attacked and most grossly abused,
because he gave his vote far Mr. Bagwell. But parts of the
evidence which had a bearing the other way, and which
showed the motives for this attack, were entirely omitted.
[Here the Hon. Gentleman read an -extract from the cvi-
dance of Mr. Fitzgerald, a magistrate, stating that this Gen-
tleman, in consequence of having voted for Mr. Bagwell, was
most grossly used, having been hooted by the populace and
pelted with mud, though the town was much indebted to him,
as he gave employment to 1,000. persons. He became on this
account an object of popular execration, and was called a mad
dog, and all this because he voted jot as he liked. On the
same day his son had two bull-dogs set upon him while he was
riding on horseback through the streets.]
Sir J. GRAHAM—Why do you not read the passages re-
lating to the Roman Catholics ?—( Cheers and laughter from
the Opposition benches.)
Mr. 0 D. could see the spirit in which that observation
was made by the Right Hon. Baronet, and he should not for-
get it when they met again " over the border." He read this
part of the evidence the more particularly, because it was upon
this the argument of the Right lion. and Gallant Officer was
founded last night. He did not read the part alluded to,
because the Gallant Officer himself read it last night, and
impressed it upon them as forcibly as he could. The
House would now permit him to read other parts of it.
That which had been referred to last,night by the Gallant
Officer was meant to prove that the outragas in this case
were committed and encouraged upon religious grounds.
What was the evidence of Mr. Loobie, a person who had
been in the employment of this Quaker Gentleman, who was
so strong an advocate for voting as he pleased, in the way his
conscience dictated ? Mr. Loobie's evidence was upon re-
cord. Mr. Ronayne, the other candidate asked him for his
vote, when Loobie said that his voting on that side would be
fatal to him. He voted, however, for Mr. Ronayne, and he
was instantly dismissed.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) Now, if such was the character of Mr. Malcolmson,
this Quaker gentleman who held fast to his own right of voting
in the way he thought best, while lie denied the same privilege
to others, and dismissed them from his employment, because they
voted as their consciences dictated, was it to be wondered at
that this excited the of the people ? The Gallant
Officer opposite ( Sir 11. Hardinge) read only the direct evi-
dence of Mr. Fitzgerald, the magistrate ; but what did that
gentleman say on his cross•examination ? He was asked
whether the ill-usage of Mr. Malcolmson might not have
arisen from his conduct to Loobie? His answer was, that he
thought he heard Mr. Malcolmson say so. He believed the
only cause of Loobie having been dismissed was his having
voted contritaf,rriatyatl i othtlsienishes of his employer.—(Cheers from
twhoendeMrfinulisebenches.)
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ment which did not disavow, if they did not actually en-
courage, the crusade which it was endeavoured to raise
against the people of Ireland under the cry of " No Popery."
The Hon. Gentlemen Opposite stood quietly by if they did not
encourage the cry, with the honoureble exception of the No-
ble Lord (Stanley). When it appeared that this vile attempt
had totally failed, they then very coldly denied that they had
any participation in it. Because such feelings were excited
in Ireland under circumstances, was that a reason why the
people were now to be deprived of their rights ? If argu-
ments of this kind were to be pushed to the extreme, perhaps
they might be -employed with equal plausibility in this coun-
try—they might be urged so far as even to call for a repeal of
the Reform Bill itself. It was not in such a way as this that
the difficulties of Ireland were to be dealt with. The plan