The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply, to consider of the Ways and Means df the
United Kingdom.
Colonel' DAVIES said, before they went into the Commit-
tee, he wished' to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman what was the
meaning of ,the discrepancy which was observed, between the
financial statement of the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
and the Estimates which had since been laid before the House.
That difference amounted, upon different items,, to no less a
sum than 1,961;0001., and when the House remembered that
.the Noble czquis took particular credit to himself • for the
flourishing state of the Finance of the country, it was' necessary
theysheuld-have some .explanation of it. . • •
he. CHANCELLOR of the ENCHEQUER answered in
a low tone of voice. We, understood him. to say, that it was
not extraordinary that accounts made up at different periods,
and -for different purposes, and also by different departments,
should present some difference in their totals, The accounts al-
luded to by the lion. and Gallant Member Were not offered as
exact statements. N

34r. HUME expressed his •obligations to his Gallant Friend
who had brought the question forward.. He wished to have
the Chancellor of the Exchequer explain what he meant by ac-
counts made up for different purposes. For-instance, he had
in.his hand one account stating the public income for the year
ending ,sth January 1821, at 1,200,0001. of a surplus. lie had
another; which stated ' a very different result. Instead, there=
fore of proceeding .into a Committee of • Supply, he thought
they should • not proceed one step further without calling upon
the Chancellor of • the Exchequer to reconcile these two state-
ments of the public income. He should move two resolutions
to that effect at a future period of the eveninf.
• The. CHANCELEOtt. of the EXC LQU ER . spoke a
few word; across the fable, which were quite inaudifJle in the
gallery, • - -• • '
- Mr. RICAR.DO said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
observed, that if it had not been for the circumstance of a sum
of money havintrbeen • necessarily paid for the interest of EX-
chequer Bills, there would be a surplus nest year of four mil.
Lions. On looking into the papers lie (Mr. R.) found that the
surplus next year would be little more than two millions ; and
for the purpose of reconciling; the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman with the fact, he bad examined the account of the
interest upon Exchequer Bills, and he foundthat only 2,1.011,0001.
was paid on thet account. If this was the case, how it pos..
able for the House to know what sum alight.not be called for
next year to pay interest upon Exchequer Bills ? Antither item
in the paper spoke ~of the whole ordinary and extraordinary
expences as eighteen Millions.: anti on casting them up he found
Them to amount, to half..amillion,more.- The Right, Hon.
Gentleman had also last-year spoken of,a surplus of four -mil-
lions, which now turned. out to be no more than two millions
and an half. These statemefitg were very far from being satis-
factory, and he 'should like. whear them explained.: •
T'ne CHA N LOR of the EXC II EQUE R said one .ge-
neral ob3;,:iva...ion would 'suffice to answer the remarks of the
Hon. Metnber, The account referred to included. the Conso-
lidated. Fund as well. as :the Annual, &rant ; ,and the , suing in
question tbrmed.nopart of the supply for the year. The ap-
propriation of all sums. paid for interest upon Exchequer Bills
came regularly before•the House t- but Ole object of the perma.'
tent account being merely to control Me grant fur the year, could
not interfaie with it in point of calculation.. ... • ^ •

Mr. ELIACE- wished to ask the '...ltight Hon. Gentleman,
whether he intended to propose :the appointment of a Select
Committee for examining the mode of conducting the Public
Accounts ? Such a Committee he thought isiyhly necesstiry.
He al :a wishal to know whether, in case of a deficiency for the
present year, it was intended to supply fait!: deficiency by an
issusi.of Exchequer Bilis. And as to the sum fixed to be paid
to the Ceminissioners for reducing _the National Debt, he
wished to know what was to 'become of any surplus beyond' that
sums . :*1

•The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
answer to the' first questiononat he thodght such a Committee
as had been alluded to • would be. highly desirable, and 'he
should therefore not object to the Committee. With respect to
the second question, he begged to observe, that the amotint.of
the Sinking Fund was not discretionary ;it wag fixed-by Act
of Parliament. In casts of an exeess, it went to the Consoli-
dated Fund ; and in case of a deficiency, it afflicted the Consoli-
dated Fund of the next year.
Mr. CURWEN wiihed. to 'ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
whether it was his intention to +propose a tax upon tallow, in
lieu of that upon soap and candles ? . ,•
Mr. TIERNEY observed, it was stated that four millions
were paid to the Cothmtssioners' for redeeming the Debt, but
on examination -it !appeared that .there.were but two real mil-
lions, the other two being added to the Unfunded Debt., This
appeared to him to be a perfect juggle.
The CHANCELLOR of the:.•EXCHEQUER said, the
Right lion. Gentleman ought to know that there was a fixed
sum which thirst, in-all 'events; •be apprOpriated to the Sinking
Fund, and in case of a deficiency it must -be made up by an ad-
dition to the Unfunded Dcbt. A quarter's instalment was al-
ways paid in advance. This was what the Right Hon. Gentl-
eman called atjuKtile. .. . • : ; • • -
Mr. TIERNbY said, he really had not meddled with the
Right lion. Gentleman or. his calculations for six years. He
could not understand them; and he believed there were not tiro
Or three.Mernbers.of the :Rollie vthodid.:-.(Hear, hear !).--The
accounts ought to. be made ,intelligible. From the explanation
just tven, it appeared that it wasa permanent plan not to rea-
lize e Sinking •Fund. - • • • • ' • _ _

Mr. BRIG IIT said, he understood from the Hon. Member
(ktr. Curwen) that be proposed to entourage the repeal of a tax
upon Soap and Candles to replace it upon tallow; He (Mr.
Bright). was willing to take. off taxes' but he would not con-
sent to the mere removal of them- All -the interests of the
country were, he thought, alike oppressed ; though it had
become the fashion to claim a monopoly of distress for the
agriculturists. •
Ai.. CUR WEN explained. Ilisobject was to cause thejzi,
position of a Tax upon Russian Tallow. He disclaimed any
wish for the mere removal ()fluxes' front- the shoulders of one
class to those of another. . • • • • a. • . • •

Mr. N. CALVERT, referring to the observation of the last
speaker, said-, it was a mistake to supposethat a Tax upon any
foreign commodity always affected the consumers of that com-
modity.
Col. WOOD said, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was desirous to remove the Tax upon Soap and Candles, and
place it upon imported Tallow, his doing so would be.don-
sidered a boon by his (Col. Wood's) constituents- The law
regulating the present Tax empowered Excise Officers to visit
their houses. •

Mr. COKE wished to ask a question of 'the Noble Marquis
respecting a Mr.. Brown, who had been suspended from his
situation in the office of the Vice-Consul. [ We could not hear
the name of the place mentioned by the: Hon. Meitker;]-:—The
suspension had taken place.five year* since, and he had never
been brought to any trial.
The Marquis- of LONDONDERRY said, that in all cases
of this description the Vice-Consul had the power of 'removing
those in whom he did not place confidence; though this power
was subject to the control of the Foreign Office. As the indi-

vidluaT in question had brought the remark upon himself, he
would state that the circum§tances attending. the suspension of
Mr. Brown had undergone ihfiiivestigatihn in the Foreign Of
and that the reasons -stated' for the suspension appeared
perfectly satisfactory.
Mr. R. SMITH wished to know from the Noble Marquis
whether he had any cornmunicatmn to make respecting the
Austrian Loan, amounting with interest to 21 millions.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY (as wits understood),
said that the correspondenee.iiith the Austrian Government
upon the subject had' been renewed, but that he was not
prepared at present to make any satisfactory communication to
the House.

Mr. R. SMITH then gave notice that he should on an early
day submit to the House a Resolution respecting this Loan.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN, referring to some observation Made
by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, was about to remark upon
some subject connected with the Navy Estimates, when
The SPEAKER rose to order. The question he said before
the Houk was, not upon the Nivy Estimdtes, but -whether he
should leave the Chair in order to the House going into a Com-
mittee of Ways and Means.
Sir I. COFFIN explained.
Mr. S. RICE wished to know whether the Chancellor of the
Exchequer intended to propose any remission of the. Irish
Window Tax ?

• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, Mini-
sters had already declared the extent to which the reduction of
taxes could safely be brought. However he begged to observe,
that the benefit of the Malt Tax Repeal would be extended to
Ireland: ••

The motion " that the Speaker do leave the Chair," was
then agreed to: the Speaker left the Chair, and the. House
being in a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the'
usual annual vote for the Tax upon Tobacco• and Snuff.-7-
Agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved
the next item, in the usual annual. vote;.for a duty-of 4s. in
the pound upon Pensions and Offices.
Mr. HUME rose and moved a amendment, that the sum
be altered to 108. in the pound upon all pensions above. 2001.
(Cheers from the Opposition.) • . • -
Mr. TIERNEY thought notice should have been given of
the intended amendment. There might be 'Manx pensions to
which the proposeddlity Might with propriety attach,-but the
House was quite unprepared for the motion.
. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the
Hon. Member that, even if he carried his motion, his object
would not be gained, as there were • many, pensions and offices
expressly exempted from the proposed tax. • The greater num-
ber of offices were excepted, and the amendment could only
affect the older ones. He thought it was most improper to
take the House by surprise upon a motion hitherto regarded as
a motion of course: . •

Mr. CREEVEY'said, they were then voting away the pub-
lie money, and although imight have been better had his Hon.
Friend given notice, he could not adopt the. doctrine of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr: Tierney). There was'no abso-
lute necessity for giving' notice.
'Mr. TIERNEY said he had not contended upon the neces-
sity of 'giving'notice.- He had only suggested the propriety of
observing courtesy and candour towards political opponents,—
(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—lt would have been
considered unfair if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had unex-
pectedly come down to that House and proposed a vote of only
3s. in the pound. He trusted the Hon. Member for Appleby
(Mr. Creevey) was not Offended. Hii object really was 'that
the House should know what it was about.

Mr. HUME denied that he had ever upon any occasion
shewn a disposition to take the House or any Member by sur4
piise Ile therefore would withdraw his amendment ter the
present ; • but he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would lay
before the House a return, containing a list of the pensions
nominally affeeted by the vote,, and stating what were and what
were not exempted, and the grounds of exemption. To enable
the Right Hon. Gentleman to produce such a return,lie begged
to withdraw his amendment, and. to substitute another, pro-
posing the postponement of the vote.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
not the least objection to meet the amendment upon principle;
but the present was a motion which had been always agreed
to since the reign of King and he.therefore trusted
the Hon. Member would not impede the course of the annual
Bill.

Mr. BERNAL could see nothing unfair in the amendrnent
of his Hon. Friend. There -Could be no incOnyenisnce what-
ever in the postponement for a few daYs, particularly as the
delay would enable the Right Honourable Gentleman to make
out the necessary return. If the vote were not stopped in' its
present ihape, it would be said afterwards that any discussion
of the question was too late.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
merely stated'in effect, that the present amendment would 'give
some Pensions an advantage over others.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said he could not see why the vote
could not be shaped so as to reach all Pensions, notwithstand-
ing the exemptions.' The preient- vote would of course form
part of an Act of Parliament: Ile supported the motion for a
postponement. • '
Mr. HUME said he held in his hand a Paper, being a Re-
turn from the Admiralty Office,'containing among other names
that of a person who had formerly received 200 L a year ; and
retired from office as incapable of service, upon a pension; had
then been appointed to another office.;—(Hear, hear, from the
OppoSition)l.,had retired from that;—.-(Cheers from the Opposi-
tion)—and was now in the possession ofa third office. The two
last offices were, a Commissioner of Stamps, and Paymaster of
WidOw's Pensions. The total of the Pensions paid. to this in-
dividual, was 14001.—(Hear, hear, and name, name, from the
Opposition.)—The name, which he had no wish unnecessarily
to mention, was Edward Finch Hatton.
Sir J.DSBORNE said the Hon: Member must be mistaken
respecting-the Gentleman alluded to. Air. Hatton had filled the
office of Under Secretaryof State.
. _

Mr. FIUME pledged himself to the accuracy of his state-
merd. He begged that the paper might be read by the Clerk
at the table.

The paper was accordingly read by the Clerk; when the
Chairman ( yfr.Brogden) observed, that the total was but 1:800.
Mr. HUME said, that the third 'office; for which Mr. Hat-
ton received OM a-year, had not the salary anneked tottlie
statement ; but he believed that six and six made twelve, and
that two added made fourteen—(A Laugh, and Cheers from
the Opposition.)—Me now begged to congratulate the llouse
upon the specimen they had of the year's estimates. lie pro-
tested against the practice which was gaining groUnd of offer-
ing flat contradictions to statements which were borne out by
returns before the House. He called upon the House to sup-
port his motion for-a postponement.
The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that
the pension alluded to was received by Mr. Hatton while he
was a Commissioner of Stamps. The third office was a place
of trust though not of great exertion. And he ought to ob-
serve that Mr. Hatton had retired from the office of Under
Secretary of State without a pension. He (the Chancellor)
could not consent to delay the present vote, as it would interfere
with the public service ; but he repeated his readiness to meet
the substance of the amendment of the Eon. Member, if he
would bring it forward in the proper course.
Mr. TIERNEY: said, he •really thought the Right Hon,
Gentleman had not made out a case to justify, his refusing the
postponement. hoped' the delay would be agreed to ; if not,
he would divide with the Member for Aberdeen, should• he
think proper to take the sense of the House.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the present ques-
tion was referrable-entirely to the convenience of the House.
The present Amendment was not a convenient vehicle for im-
posing the tax in question, even if after a regular discussion it
should be thought proper to impose it. There could be no rea=
son for delaying-a-Bill which had always passed as a matter of
course since the reign of King, William. The • Amendment, if'
adopted upon principle, might be placed upon a more compre-
hensive ground, and more conveniently for the object 'of the
Member: for Aberdeen. It appeared to him ,that the best course
would be to pass the Billin its present state, and that done, it
would still be open to the Hon. Member to bring.forward any
remedy which he flight think called for by the circumstances
of the ease. • ' • •

Mr. HUME wished for information. The only point under
consideration was, whether or not the resolution should be post-
poned. This he contended might be done • with Out injury to
.the:public serilce. • • • • • • • -
Mr. BENNETT thought his Hon. Friend would do better
to follow hit Own judgMent than to take the advice of the No-
ble Maiquis. He Objecteettb the'Bill altogether, and had come
there, if he might so express himself, to lend -it a lift as far as
lay in his power. No measure could be worse imagined than
this was, which exposed. the same rate of taxation oil' those
whose situations were 'essentially different', and dealt with an
office that might be very ill paid, in the same way as it dealt
with one who might be greatly over-paid. He therefore wished
to stop the progress of the Bill, as he thought.it'neeessaty that
its provisions should come under the consideration of the
House, or be subjected to the inquiries of a Committee.—
He now begged to 'move that the Chairthan shOuld report
progress.
. Mr. BROGDEN said, an amendment had already been
moved by an• Hon. Gentleman. That amendment he had un-
derstood the Hon. Gentleman (Mr: Humejli6 desired to with-
draw for the purpose of substituting another:- -
•• Mr. CROKER begged to say that Mr. Finch Hatton had
never been connected with the Admiralty-Office, and therefore
the Lord of the Admiralty near him was quite right in the con;
rection which he had supplied. He would state what had-led
to the misconception. In 1811, an Act of Parliament passed
to appropriate old naval stores, by which those pensioni which
had been paid out of the produce of those stores before, were

ordered to be carried to the naval estimates. This had caused
the name of Mr. Hatton td appear there, but he had never been
connected with the Admiralty.
Mr. BROUGHAM rose to show that the correction was in-
correct.

BROGDEN remarked to the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, that he had first to submit a question to the Com-
mittee, on which no one could speak, but to assent or dissent.
He had to ascertain whether it was the pleasure of the House
that the amendment should be withdrawn.

The amendment having been withdrawn,
Mr. BROUGHAM was sorry that he had already caused
the Committee to • lose, more time -than would have been con-
sumed by whittle had to offer, even if the tale were twice
told. He rose to prove to the Hon. Gentleman who had just
spoken, that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, bad
been right, and the Lord of the Admiralty, in correcting him,
was wrong. Such a failure in an attempt at correction he, and
perhaps the oldest Member in the. House, had never witnessed.
'lle Hon. Gentleman was now said to be wrong, because Mr.
Finch Hatton had not.. been connected with the Admiralty,
though his name had been transferred, there by the Act for Ap-
propriating Naval Stores. There was another reason foi his
being regarded as connected with the Admiralty. His name
was in a return from the Admiralty, No. 6, signed James
Dyer, Chief Clerk. There was yet another reason for it ;
Mr. Hatton was PaYmastei of Widows' Pensions for the Navy
and Marines.

Mr. CROKER said, the parties which paid the Widows'
Pensions formed a Corporation quite distinct from the Admi-
ralty, with which it had never been connected. The name of
Mr. F. Hatton had never appeared in the Admiralty Returns
or Navy Estimates, till it was carried there by the Act to which
he had alluded. It had never been denied that his name was
returned, but he had thought it right to explain how this had
happened.
Mr. HUME named other Papers relative to the Admiralty,
in which Mr. Hatton's name would be found.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, within the-fast five years the in-
come of the individual who had been mentioned had been raised
from 2001. to what it was at present. He hoped it would not
be contended there existed any particular reason from exempt-
ing that from the reductions now to be carried into effect.

Mr. ELLICE suggested that the offices which this Bill of
fected, or at least some of them, might be advantageously re
duced.

Sir J. OSBORNE said, when he corrected the Honour-
able Member he had understood him to say, that Mr. Finch
Hatton had retired from the Admiralty. He now understood
that what he had said was that the name of that: individual was
returned from the Admiralty, and this, he had never meant to
deny.
Mr. FUME considered an additional reason to be furnished
for inquiring into this subject, by the fact that till 1800, the
duties of the office in question had been performed for a sa-
lary of one hundred pounds. Then it rose to two hundred
pounds, and thus it remained till 1813, when Ministers were so
flush of money that they raised it to 6001. He thought it ought
now to be reduced to 2001.

Mr. CROKER observed, when this item came before the
House, it would be his duty to explain 'it as he had often done
before. It might be for the general convenience that he should
not do so at present, and he only mentioned it now that it might
not be thought he treated the suggestion which had been thrown
out from Ole-opposite side with disrespect.
The chairman read the Resolution. On coming to the words
" fOur shillings and no more,"
Mr. SCARLETT objected to the words, " no more," as
if these were retained no alteration could afterwards be made
in the Bill. He thought the Resolution might be postponed.
The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would have
no objection to -postpone the Resolution, if agreeing to it now
could occasion any inconvenience, but he did_ not see that this
was likely ; and, on the other hand, the inconvenience of de-
viating from the established course ought not to be disregarded.
He thought it would be better that the duty should fall- on the
next salaries than to-begin by going back to the old nominal
incomes. For another year he thought.there could be no harm
in going on in the old way, and- It would at all times be open
to those who objected to the measure which had been called in
question, to propose any alteration that might seem desirable..
Mr. ENNETT moved that the Chairman should report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The Committee divided on this—
For the Amendrnent
Against it
Majority
When strangers were re-admitted,
Mr. CALCRAFT was on his legs, objecting to the words
" no more," in the Resolution. He moved that they should
be omitted.

- 11?,
- -47

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declined op-
posing the Ainendment.

i!lr. ELLICE wished to know what was the expense of col-
lecting the Tax ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to gay that it was collected with the Land Tax.
Mr. ELLICE remarked, if the pensions- on which it at-
tached were reduced„ the expence of collecting the duty might
be saved.

The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER said, it was
intended to make some alterations in the mode of collecting the
Revenue.
Mr. HUME reminded the Right Hon. Gentleman that when
he (Mr. Hume) had brought forward this subject, he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had stood up to negative his
motion. He complained of the conduct of the Right Honour..
able Gentleman, but hoped he would carry his present resolu-
tion into effect.

Mr. BROUGHANI hoped the expense of collecting the
Sixpenny and Shilling Duties would also be diminished.,...
Were such means resorted to, much might be saved, but this
did not appear to be object of Ministers. In proof of this, he
alluded to the case of an individual who having been superan-
nuated in one office, now held two others in the Land Tax
Office. He would direct the attention of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Aberdeen to that office, and he was sure if he
looked there he would find plenty of abuses to occupy him for
some time.

The motion, as amended by the omission of the words " no
more,!' was then agreed to.
It was then moved that the Sugar Duties, and the Duties on
Foreign Spirits and Sweets, should be further continued.—
Agreed to.
PATMENT OF THE FIVE PER CENTS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hgwing moved
that the sum of 20,000,0001. should be granted by Exchequer
Bills for the service of Great Britain in 1822,
Mr. ELLICE wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, if
in proposing any part of the Ways and Means that night, it
was his intention to offer any statement to the House on the
subject of the transaction which had taken place that morning
at the Treasury Chamber.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
his intention on Monday to submit a motion to the House
which would bring under their consideration the whole plan for
reducing the Five per cents.
The motion was then agreed to.

It was next moved that's sum. of 4,000,0001. granted by Ex-
chequer Bills to complete the service of tbeyear 1821, should
be made applicable to the service of 1822.—Agreed to..
The House then resumed, and the Report of the Committee
was ordered to be read on Monday.
NOTICE OF MOTION.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
several Acts relative to the five per cent. Stock should be en-
tered as read." He then gave notice that on Monday he would
move that the House go'into's.-Committee on the sa..l Acts, for
the purpose of taking into their consideration the plan adopted
by Nlimsters for paying of!' the Five percent.