The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-19 00:00:00

WILLIAM SMITH O'BRIEN.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL having moved that the re
cord of the judgment of the House of Lords, affirming
the dedgen of 02e, Wirt in IrolAnd ;lob* Mx, Pula

O'Brien, be entered as read, proceeded to move that
Mr. Smith O'Brien, who had been convicted of high
treason, should, be expelled the House. The Noble
Lord, in making the motion, said that the course he in-
tended to pursue he believed to be without precedent,
but although it was so, the crime of which the individual
had been convicted was of such a nature as totally to in-
capacitate him from holding a seat in that House.
The precedents he had been able to find upon the
subject had no reference whatever to the present case.
These precedents were of two kinds. The first was
with respect to high treason. The first case on the sub
ject was on the 10th of May, 1715. In that case Mr. Foster,
a Member of that House, having been taken on a writ
of rebellion for high treason was expelled the House, and
in another case, on the 22d of June, 1716, the
House being informed that J. Carnegie, DT, a
Member of the House, had been in open rebellion in
Scotland, wialesses were called to the- bar who proved
the fact, and he was expelled the Home?, and
a new writ was issued. The other cases he had
discovered were cases with regard to which there
might be some doubt as to the nature of the offence,
but they were cases of perjury, conspiracy, and
various offeacea in the nature of misdem anour, in
which there might be a doubt whether they were of the
nature to require that the House should proceed
to the severe penalty o! expulsion. The present
case of Mr. Smith O'Brien was one, as regarded
the House, totally without precedent, and was not
similar to the cane of Members with respect to
whom a similar proceeding had been taken to the
one he was now about to adopt. When it was said
that he was in arms against her Majesty, the Howe
did not take any notice of the fact, but waited
till the conclusion of the proceedings against him.
Mr. Smith O'Brien being convicted of high
treason in Ireland, brought a writ of error against that
conviction in the House of Lords, and that House having
sustained that conviction and affirmed the decision of the
courts in Ireland, it became necessary that be should
make the present motion for Mr. O'Brien's ex-
pulsion from that House. It was unneces,ary that
he should say one word on the nature of the
offence, because nothing could be more complete
than the conviction and the judgment. With re-
gard to the consequences following on such an
offence, he need only observe that it was
an offence totally unlike the misdemeanours he had re-
ferred to, it was high treason, and all writers declared
that it was the law of Parliament that all persons
guilty of it were unable to sit in that House.
The consequence was, therefore, that Mr. Smith O'Brien
having been convicted of,high treason, he was civilly dead,
and could not be elected, nor hal a seat in that House;
but he believed it was not prudent to eetablish a prece
dent in modern time of expelling a Member. He hod,
therefore, consulted with the Speaker and other
authorities as to the course to be taken in the case, and
he had come to the resolution of moving the two follow-
ing reeolutions : —" Whereas it appears by the records of
this House thet Mr. Smith O'Brien has been convicted of
high tee aeon ;" and when that resolution was agreed to,
he should proceed to move—" That a new writ be issued
for election of a knight of the shire for the county of
Limerick, in the room of Mr. William Smith O'Brien,
who had been convicted cf high treason." The Noble
Lord then moved the first resolution.

Sir FREDERICK THESlGEitFuggested that the
word "convicted" had better be altered to " attainted,"
as attainder did not follow conviction, but judgment.
Mr. Smith O'i3rien would not be civilly dead until
judgment had been passad upon hits,
The ATTORNEY GENERAL thought the proper
words would be " adjudged guilty of high treason," and,
The resolution having been so altered, it was put from
the chair, and agreed to.

Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Speaker do
issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to issue a
new writ for the county of Limerick, in the room of
William Smith O'Brian.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR. said that, alter seeing the reso-
lution as it originally stood, it was his intention to move
es an amendment ►hat an humble address be presented
to her Majesty, praying that she would be gracinu-ly
pleased to extend a free pardon to William Smith
O'Brien.—(Oh, oh.) He had nit intended to introduce
that amendment by an inflammatory speech; but having
ascertained that the relatives of Mr. Smith O'Brien
wished that his case should remain in the hands of her
Majesty's Ministers, he thought it %you'd be exceedingly
improper for any individual Member of the Houie to
take up the subject, and ha would, therefore, not move
his amendment.—(Hear, hear.)
The resolution was then agreed to.
PRIVILEGE—STRANGERS EXCLUDED.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
On clause 1 being proposed,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL rose, and pointing to the reporters'
gallery, said, " Sir, I observe strangers present."
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and they
did so accordingly, reporters of course amongst them.
During our exclusion (about half past seven) the mes-
senger connected with the gallery handed to us the fol-
lowing statement of a division which bad taken place:—
Question put on clause 1, line 3, that the words " and
that I do not believe," stand past of the clause.
The Committee divided—
Ayes
Noes

62
... 164
Majority ...-102
At ten minutes past eight Celeck tbe gallery was re-
opened.

On our re-admission we found Mr. BERNAL putting
an umendment, on which

Mr. LAW observed that the greater portion of the
Bill having been discussed in the absence of the public,
the remainder might have been equally well considered
under similar circumstances. He should move on the
third reading to exclude the Jews from the operation of
the Bill.

Clause 5 was then agreed to, with amendments.
On clause 6, providing that the Act ahould not extend
to Roman Catholics, or affect the 10th George IV., c. 7
(the Roman Catholic Relief Act),
Mr. M'CULLAGH moved the omission of the clause.
Ravin; reviewed the relaxations introduced from time to
time in the Roman Catholic disabilities, he urged the
House to put an end to the anomalous state of matters
under which the same oath was alleged to be taken in
different senses by different Roman Catholic Members.
It was not the Roman Catholic, but the Protestant
Members, who complained that Parliament imposed on
the Roman Catholic Members au ambiguous, abortive,
and obscure test.

Mr. FAGAN complained of the advantage which was
frequently taken of the oath to taunt and insult Catholic
Members. He himself was insulted by the imputation
that ho was acting in violation of his oath when he re-
cently brought forward a motion respecting ministers'
money in Ireland. He would not do uny thing tending
to subvert the Protestant Establishment, but there was
nothing in the oath which he had taken to prevent him
from endeavouring, to make that Establishment more
useful.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL said, that he had not had the
good krtune to be present when his Hon. Friend pro-
posed the amendment, but he approved of its object. For
his own part, he felt not the slightest uneasiness as to
the opinion which any one might form with respect to
his construction of the oath. He had examined the oath
attentively, and be was satitfied that it did not restrict
him from voting upcn measures affecting the property of
the Church. If any taunts should be directed against
him from any course he might take in that House he
would deal with them in a very summary manner. If
any person accused him of being guilty of perjury, he
would accuse that person of not speaking the truth, and
he would do so in the most compendious form of words.
He swore not to disturb or weaken the Protestant reli-
gion; but money was not religion. Those only who held
that money and religion wore convertible terms could
accuse him of disregarding the oath which he had
taken. Again he declared that he would act upon his
conscientious convictions, and was prepared to abide the
result.

Mr. NEWDEGATE complained of the course taken
by the Hon. Member for Limerick. At an early period
of the evening strangers had been ordered to withdraw
',Ton the suggestion of the Hon. Member, in consequence
of which the admirable speeches delivered by the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth, the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, and other distinguished Mem-
bers of the House, had not been reported.—(Hear, hear.)
Now the Hon. Gentleman got up and gave a falsified and
one-sided resume of the arguments which had been em-
ployed in the unreported debate.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL indignantly repelled the im•
putation.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said that the Hon. Gentleman,
had, at least, given a one-sided version of the argu-
ments. It would appear that the Hon. Member's object
in excluding the reporters was to have the advantage
of renewing the debate under circumstances favourable
to himself.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY expressed
the great regret he felt at the exclusion of reporters, a
circumstance which had never occurred but once before
in the course of the twelve years during which he had
sat in Parliament. The circumstance to which he had
referred was the more to be regretted, because the de-
bate had been most interesting and instructive.
Mr. V. SMITH approved of the amendment. The
painful position in which Roman Catholic Members felt
themselves placed at present would be aggravated if the
words which the Bill struck out of the Protestant oath
should be retained in the Catholic one. Would it not
appear to be something like an imputation of bad faith
to Catholics to call upon them exclusively to swear that
they took the oath required from them without any
equivocation or mental reservation ? During the ab-
sence
Memberunic a tf ionrg
Lttomietr
twe
kh actopmaps
ls
ae
tda
ei nd that
t
of those gentlemen who did the public the valu-
itleussee,rtvhicee
I °I
Co
n c.
a speech of a Catholic Member had been compressed
into five lines, whilst that of a Protestant Secretary of
State had been expanded into thirty. As regarded oaths,
however, the case was reversed, for the Catholic would
have to swear to thirty lines, witilst the Protestant
would be limited to five.—(A laugh) Whether the
Hon. Member for Limerick would deem that a com-
pensation for the grievance to which he had adverted, it
was hard to my, but he (Mr. V. Smith), being in favour
of uniformity, would support the amendment which had
been moved.

Mr. SPOONER deprecated the attempt to reps' the
Catholic oeth, which was held to be one of the sate
guards of the constitution.
Lord J. RUSSELL was glad to find that we had a
constitution lest. He had always understood that the
constitution was utterly destroyed and gone when the
Act fur the Emancipation of the Catholics passed in
1829.—(" Hear," and laughter.) Now, however, it ap-
peared that the constitution was still extant, and that the
Catholic oath was part of it. He did not feel himself
called upon to support the amendment, because the oh-
,Pet of the Bill was to IS2r.l2rie (-)l,Stat.:ito Wilrh prt:Yerz!_ d
the entrance of parties into Parliament. The Catholics
had already seats in Parliament.
Jar. WOOD oaid that political and religins ousger.

ations would induce him to vote for the amendment. As
regarded the political view of the question, it was absurd
and improper to shackle a Member of Parliament in his
legislative capacity, and it was unwise as regarded the in-
terests of Ireland to maintain distinctions between Catho-
lics and Protestants. A s to retaining the oath upon religious
grounds, let no one suppose that our Church depended
upon such rubbish as this.—(Hear, hear.) The time
was past for these vain reliances; the Church was to
be protected by its purity, by the union of its members,
by thee real earnest devotion of those who believed it the
most pure and reformed part of Christ's Church.—(Hear,
hear.) Let any one compare the Church of England now
with what it was thirty years ago, and say whether it
was not far more energetic and active than when there
were those barricades to protect it.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIB EHORP could hardly believe that he
heard aright when he listened to a Chancery barrister,
the representative of the city of Oxford—(A laugh)—
designating an oath, an appeal to the Almighty, as
`t rubbiali."—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WOOD could hardly have thought he was under-
stood to mean anything more than that to rely upon
this particular form of oath wus relying upon rubbish.
Mr. P. HOWARD would wish to see one oath adopted
for all, but could not shut his eyes to the probable effoct
of this motion upon the success of the Bill in another
place, if not in that House.—(Hear, hear.) Wishing
now not to put forward the question involved in this
motion, but to remove the greater grievance of his neigh.
boar, he should abstain from voting, fearing to endanger
the Bill.

Mr. WYLD protested against the introduction upon
this occasion of the question involved in the motion.
This was a most inopportune moment for it.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Fur the clause ... 103
Against it 54
—49

Majority

The Bill having been gone through, the ROUE() re-
sumed; •he report to be received on Monday, and the
third reading then fixed for Monday, June 11th.
NOTICE OF MOTION.—EXCLUSION OF
STRANGERS.

Colonel THOMPSON gave notice that ho should, on
an early day, move " That this House take into its
consideration the standing order by which strangers are
excluded on the motion of a single Member, with a view
to the alteration of the same."

The Defects in Leases Bill went through Committee
pro furma to receive amendments.
The House adjourned at a Quarter before Ten o'clock.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
SENTENCES.

The following is a list of the sentences passed during
the late sittings of this Court:—

TRANSPORTATION.

FOURTEEN YEARS.—Janes llebertson.

TEN YEARS.—John Draddy, James Chitty, George
Jones, Edward Bishop, Jerry Sullivan, George Rivers,
William Gear, George Johnson, Stephen Kenfield, James
Johnson, alias Savage.
SEVEN YEARS.—Charles M'Clarens, William Middle •
ton, Thomas Maley,• alias Healey, James Hayes, alias
Carty. William Edwin Bazley, George Douglas, Timo-
lwa Vlasto, Hannah Barrett., John Clark.