The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-22 00:00:00

MOUSE OF LORDS, MARCM 21.

The Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Lord PLUNKETT) took
the oaths and his seat.

Sir ALEXANDER GRANT, and others, from the Com-
mons, brought up the Prohibition or Mandamus Bill, and
several private Bills.
Petitions were presented by the Duke of Grafton from
Suffolk, in favour of Reform, and from Woodbridge and
Aldborough to the same effect; by Earl Spencer from
Northampton, in favour of Reform, and similar petitions
from Daventry and from Upton-upon-Severn ; by Lord
Kinnoul, from Perth, in favour of Reform ; by Lord
Radnor, from Goodehurch, and several other places, to
the same effect ; by the Earl of Eldon, from a place in
Galway, for an extension of the elective franchise;
by Lord King, from Axminster, Dunfermline, Dumbarton,
and several other places, in favour of Reform ; by Lord
Montagu, from Selkirk, against Reform. The Noble Lord
addressed the House at considerable lsngth,not a word, how-
ever, was heard below the bar. Several petitions were
presented by the Earl of Roseberry, from Linlithgow
and Queen's Ferry, in favour of Reform : by the
Earl of Dudley, from Sedgley, in Staffordshire, in favonr
of Reform ; by Lord Goderich, from Lincoln, to the same
effect ; by the Duke of Norfolk, from Cove and Horsham,
to the same effect; also similar petitions from Waterford,
the barbers of Glasgow, Perth, and several other places.
Lord FARNHAM observed that as several of the peti-
tions presentA by the Noble Duke (Norfolk) came from
Ireland, be felt himself called upon to say a few
words upon this ail engrossing sulaject. Their Lordships
would recollect the Bill brought fOrward by his Majesty's
Ministers, with respect to a Reform in England,
stood for a second reading in the House of Com-
mons this evening, and, strange to say, no details
had as yet been brought forward with reference to Ireland.
The measure, as opened by the Paymaster of the Forces,
was to be looked at as a whole one. He wished, therefore,
to be informed by his Majesty's Ministers when it was
their intention to bring forward the details of the measure
with respect to Ireland, as he (Lord Farnham) considered
the subjr ct could not be discussed as a whole measure
unless the details of the Irish Bill were before the
House as well as those of England and Scotland.—
He had several petitions from Ireland on this subject,
but he had deferred presenting them till the details of the
measure were brought forward. He, however, thought
any Bill bottomed on the same principles as those on
which the Irish and Scotch Bills had proceeded, would
not be of much good to Ireland.
Earl GREY considered it an irregular course for the
Noble Lord to ask when a Bill was to be introduced into the
other House, in which it could only be properly introduced.
It was a question to which it was utterly impossible for him,
consistently with his respect to the other House, to give
any answer. Whether a measure, such as that contem-
plated in England, was applicable to Ireland, whether
it would be productive of advantages or not,
would be discussed when the matter came before
the House. But this was the first time that he (Earl
Grey) had ever heard it stated that a Bill for Re-
form in England could not be discussed until Bills of ti
similar nature were brought in for Ireland. As far, how-
ever, as he could speak in answer to the Noble Lord's
question, lie certainly could say the Bill for Ireland was
prepared and would be produced at the first convenient
opportunity.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that the question was
at all events a very natural one.
REFORM GENERALLY.

The LORD CHANCELLOR had a great many peti-
tions to present in favour of this important measure,
which at present almost engrossed :be attention of all, and
he begged leave to make the same apology as he had done
on a former occasion, for presinting these petitions in the
shorts. It was certainly not out of disrespect to the peti-
tioners that he did so, hut because they were so very nu-
merous that the presenting them in the ordinary way
would very much interfere with the other business of the
House. He had thirty petitions to present, almost all of
them from public corporate bodies, whose interests were
affected by the measure, but which interests they were
glad to sacrifice for the good of the community. The
petitions were from the Incorporations of Hammermen
and Tailors of Edinburgh ; from the Incorporated Can-
dlemakers of Portsburgh, near Edinburgh ; from the
Corporations of Jedburgh and Newburgh ; from the Cor-
poration of Fleshers of Edinburgh ; from several Incor-
porated Bodies of Stirling and Perth ; from the Corpora-
tionStewartry of Kirkcudbright ;
from
mGea Gatehouse, s
Incorporated, in t
Bodies in Edinburgh ; from
the Magistrates and Inhabitants of the Canongate, and
from other places. He had six other petitions to present—
from the county of Renfrew, from the Gorbals of Glas-
gow, from the county of Lanark ; and 20 other petitions,
making in all 54, from corporate bodies, who gladly sa-
crificed their own interests far the good of the community.
Among these were petitions from the towns of Ayr, Dum-
barton, Haddington ; from the Dean and Faculty of the
Law Practitioners of Glasgow; from the Magistrates of
Glasgow ; from the Incorporated Masons of Glasgow ;
from the Seven Incorporated Trades of Stirling,
&C. He had about eighty or ninety more, with
which he would not at present trouble their Lord-
ships; but he could not help remarking the generosity and
disinterestedness which had been displayed on this mo-
mentous occasion, by persons in comparatively humble
situations in life. When they awarded due honour and
praise to the Noble Lords in this House, and to the Hon.
Members in the other, who readily sacrificed their own
interests and political influence to the public good, it was

impossible to refrain from awarding a similar mood of
praise to those of a humbler—he would not say a lower—
class, who had evinced equal disinterestedness. He had
one more petition now to present, ansl that would show
how grievously individuals were mistaken who tried to
excite discontent among the humblest classes of society.—
(A laugh.)-11 those who had set up that laugh had
waited till he concluded, they would have seen that it
was one of those laughs which hid better have been post.
poned sine die. His object was to show that a moral
lesson might be drawn from this interesting passage in the
history of the people. This petition showed that they la-
houred under a great delusion who attempted to excite a
hostile feeling against this great measure of Reform in the
minds of the humbler classes of the people, who had
proved, however, bow much they were exalted above their
tempters. Me called them the humbler, but not the lower
classes, for they had resisted the temptation when appealed
to on the topics so apt to delude. They were told " you
will have no votes by this plan, for it is founded on pro-
perty from the beginning to the end." The people showed
that they were not to be so deluded, and they replied,
" This is the first time that men of your kidney thought
of the people." The people saw that the measure would
give them the object for which alone votes could be useful
or desirable,
and that was that it would secure them a
good representation.--(Hear.) The argument, however,
was as old as the Christian Religion ; and he who first
used it was a character well known in Sacred History._
He would read from Sacred History what the historian
bad said of him who first made use of the appeal. " And
Judas, whose name was Iscariot, answered and said, ' Why
are nut these things sold for so much money to be given
to the poor ?' " Upon which the Sacred Historian re-
marks with indignation, in his simple but powerful lan-
guage—" Not that Judas Iscariot cared anything for the
poor, but that he was a thief"—.

•
The Duke of WELLINGTON rore to order. It had
before been proposed, and, as he understood, agreed to,
that the measure should not be discussed till it came regu-
larly before their Lordships. But the Noble and Learned
Lord was irregular in referring to arguments that had been
used in the other House.

The LORD CHANCELLOR had not referred to argu-
ments used in the other House, but to arguments held out
of doors at county meetings.

The Duke of WELLINGTON—The Noble and Learned
Lord hail at least referred to arguments used, to show the
people that the measure would not be beneficial but in-
jurious to them, and since he had done so he ought to have
gone further, and adverted to the arguments used to the
people on the other side—the arguments to persuade them
that this measure must lead to ulterior measures—to Radi-
cal Reform and Universal Suffrage—(Hear, hear).—and
since the Noble and Learned Lord referred to the one set
of arguments, he ought to have referred to the other, for
there was no doubt but that great support to the measure
had been procured from the people in consequence of the
hopes thus held out to them. He would not, however,
now enter further into the discussion of the measure, but
reserve himself till it came regularly before them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR quite agreed with the
Noble Duke, that it was far better that the discussion of
the measure should be reserved till it came regularly before
them. That had been stated as a rule, and from that
rule he had not deviated. Ile had not entered into the
discussion of the question, but having fifty-four petitions
to present from Corporate Bodies, in addition to twenty-
five before presented from such bodies, in which they in
the strongest and most disinterested manner, supported a
measure which trenched on their own peculiar privileges,
out of regard to the goad of the community, he had only
said that a great moral lesson might be drawn from that
circumstance. This was germane to the matter, and not
irregular. He differed from the Noble Duke when he
slid that the people were induced to support the measure
by the hope of its leading to ulterior measures, for he had
presented petitions signed by thirty-three thousand names,
hundreds and thousands of whom would have no votes,
but who expressed their approbation of the measure from
the knowledge that it would give what was the only real
use and object of votes—namely, good representation.
The petitions were then presented, and the whole of
them laid on the table. _ . _

The Marquis of CLEVELAND presented petitions
for the 11,-form Bill from the Liberty of the Rolls, in Mid-
dlesex ; from Darlington, in the county of Durham ; and
from the Mayor and Corporation of To tness.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a petition
against the Ministerial plan of Reform from a place in
Devonshire, but the petitioners stated that they were not
hostile to moderate Reform ; also a petition from Had-
dington, in favour of the principle of the Ministerial plan.
He, himself, gave no opinion on the subject at present.
The Earl of MANSFIELD presented a petition against
the Reform measure from the Merchants, Bankers, and
the College of Justice, of Edinburgh.
The Earl of CARLISLE presented petitions from Cum-
berland assembled at a meeting where the High Sheriff
presided ; and from the town of Carlisle, in favour of the
measure.

Earl GREY presented a petition from Greenwich, in
Kent, numerously signed, in favour of the measure; also
a petition to the ssme effect from Birmingham, signed by
21,000 persons, and agreed to unanimously at a public
meeting, and that upon the principle of the plan, without
reference to ulterior measures. His Lordship observed,
that he felt the inconvenience of discussing the measure
before it caine immediately before them ; but he was him-
self anxious for that discussion, in order to show the
smight
nto
osay,
ulterior tll
grounds ou which the measure rested. But this much he
any persons supposed that this would
leada
ifm easures they were mistaken ; for there
w
personatmore decided against Annual Parliaments,
Universal Suffrage, and the Ballot, than he was. His
object was not to favour, but to put an end to such hopes
and projects, and for that purpose to produce a system not
liable to the objections to which the present system was
liable. The measure was introduced as the best security
against such schemes ; and in that view the proposed
measure had been eminently successful.
His Lordship then presented a petition from Alanches-
ter, signed by 20,090 persons, in favour of the Reform
measure.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions to
the same effect from Warrington, signed by 1,600 persons ;
from Girvan, in the county of Ayr ; from Rumsey infra
and extra, in the county of Northampton; from the
town of Ayr; from Newburgh ; from Dover, and from

Bervey.
The Duke of SUSSEX presented petitions to the nme
effect from the parish of St. Luke, Chelsea ; from Holy-
well; from the borough of Renfrew; and from certain
merchants and other inhabitants of a town in the county
of Meath, who prayed that the same plan of Reform which
was introduced for England and Scotland might be ex-
tended to Ireland : this was material in reference to the
observations of a Noble Lord opposite (Farnham).
Lord MELBOURNE presented petitions to the same
effect from Glasgow ; from the parish of St. Andrew,
Holborn; from Monmouth, and four petitions from dif
ferent parts of the county of Durham.
All the petitions were laid on the table.
ENGLISH AND SCOTCH MARRIAGES.

The Earl of ELDON had been requested by a Noble
Lord now in Scotland (probably Lauderdale) to lay on
their Lordships' table a Bill on the subject of English and
Scotch marriages. Within these last five years cases had
come to their Lordships' bar relative to children born in
England of persons not married, which persons went to
Scotland and got themselves married there, and by three
or four judgments it had been decided that such marriages
did not legitimise the children. In the course of the
addresses of the Counsel, it became necessary to consider
what degree of residence in Scotland constituted a resi-
dence so as to entitle married persons to call upon the
Scotch Courts for a divorce a cinculo matrimonii. Per-
sons who had been married in England sometimes took it
into their heads to go to Scotland to be divorced, and the
question was, what degree of residence constituted a domi.
cite so as to entitle them to call on the Courts for that
kind of divorce? He at present gave no opinion as to
the validity of these divorces; but he knew that it had
been solemnly agreed by the twelve Judges of England that
an English marriage could not be dissolved in Scotland or
anywhere else, without an Act of the British Parliament.
He gave no opinion as to which were right, the English
or the Scotch Judges; but his opinion was, that they must
not leave the subject in England or Scotland in this state.
A man who had married in England, and had gone to
Scotland and got a divorce, and then married again in
England, had been indicted for bigamy, and had been
convicted and ordered to be transported, although the
mercy of the Crown had been extended to him in conside-
ration of the circumstances. The object of the Bill was
to settle that matter, either one way or the other. He
hoped that their Lordships would allow it to be read a first
time, and the Noble Lord who framed it expected to he in
town himself, to propose a time for the second reading.
The Bill was accordingly read a first time.
The Earl of ELDON presented a petition from certain
Roman Catholics of Galway, praying that the elective
franchise might be extended to them in the same manner
as to Protestants.
Lord BELHAVEN presented a Bill relative to landlords
and tenants in Scotland.—Read a first time, and ordered
to be read a second time on Friday.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented three petitions

from •hip-owners against the additional duties on Canada
timber.

BANKRUPTCY JUDICATURE REFORM BILL.
The Earl of ELDON requested of his Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack to allow the second
reading of the Bankruptcy Judicature Reform Bill to
stand over till the return of the Noble Lord Chief Baron
from the Circuit. He disclaimed all intention of making
this proposition as a party-handle to defeat the measure.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was satisfied that his
Noble and Learned Friend was above such conduct. He
was not particular as to a thy, and admitted that it was
fitting that the measure should be discussed with all the
professional assistance that they could procure. He had
written to the Noble Baron to ascertain at what time he
would be in town, and expected an answer to-morrow,
and he would then fix a time for the second reading.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had received a letter from
the Noble Lord Chief Baron, in which his Lordship in-
formed him that the earliest day on which he could be in
town would be Good Friday.
The LORD CHANCELLOR would fix the time to-
morrow, and in case the Noble and Learned Lord Chi 4
Baron should not be able to come to town till Good Fri-
day, lie should propose the first Monday after the recess.
Order for the second reading this night discharged.--
Adjourned.