The Sun.
London, England, 1807-08-05 00:00:00

PLACES IN REVEttSION,

The Order of the Illy tijog Oloved for the?
Cond reading of the 13111 pr)hihitin- in tuturc tiiu
Grant, of Maces, Iteyeriion, •
Lord /fit/JEN roe, `tlarsutfee to Imliee, to 2,4A.ci
his deci(l....i uppesitiob to "tote Pi'l, It was
which. in it; ricn iene-y,',.62nt
the jult prerom'svk Of 'the (210vvn, ad:lthit' :1
!Idle ‘yheu every thing sh'onld to t,y!,03,..:', !he;
:.`douarcity ;. it \Vas a measure quite tinnsAlli
called fdr, and which not hiiefit tlt•
of the Country, or of t!it.;. to
cut or TIIC wt.re
anxious to entertain such inw;ration,,.

Lsrd GROS/11'4'On supported the It. ti.•:.s
a Bill of gre:u importance, oud eve.tati,eit
and he was imprised to observe
Majesty':;,MitliitQ;- on en re:J....lsle:l that vail,ed tot
tho, pneeniveced avowal of their s'eotirtienta. 1.1,d1.e21
points like the present. :Much: lied been expeeci
from the labours and the continued.,sitiines 'of OH
Committee of Finance—rhatf what seesationsand opt-
pions must arise in the mind of the Pebiie, 'the',
first measure proposed by them %vas tiles to, he, telit;
pressed. Such thins nearly-concerned,the cleuniry
at such times. These were exigent times, aed ina
periously ire quit ed the exercise of the, strietest eco-
nomy.. But if Places were still to he granted in
•reversion, what wouldt belett to remetrenne
ordinary merit, and emitieut services, wheoerr t!;s7
should'appear If Plriees trature.were
disposed of, Pensions must be granted to those who
perform these signal services, and thus the pink.:
burtlicps
,wilt teniecess:pily increased. He tie.nr
therefore intreat the Hon se, as they valued their
own char:tat:l-s, and. as ttie felt for the Ccr,lptry
under circumstances bite the pre;etit.,' not. to le4cl
their opposition Co a met.Leire which promised the
performance of alittle 0-4.111,110 t tA",!i expe:4s4.
Lord L/1UDE411.14 LE, could not adeettately.ex.
press his. feelings at .the. as2xe4 and circumstances
which marked the opposition to the present measure.
It was a *measure whiff h had been intrieleced ititt;
the other House with the utmost sOlemeity : it Kt,;
'a Measure that seemed ;to le:ve received .the 'r,et
sanetion of-tire Mioisteto of the ;-!1•4wil tit thot
House; it wits a measure t bet ..w.es str-OiOy recom-
mended:to the adoptieo. of Parliamt.'nt. two
Speeches from his Majesty, one that clow:t tin },rte
SsSion of Parliameut, .the other that
.present Session : yet this very :Owe W $.4
now contended to bederolotory to the ,pi-eriogip..,
and. the just iutloence of. the Crown:Bed ecose-
quently one that should not.he elm-In:deed b 5 01.4
House. These ineonsi,tenci.is astonis'ned him ; hot
whatever,' [night be,- their :motive, t iwy islet 110
foundation in
.argotnent. So at from the .4;11
encroaching, on the preregativcie or ditniotieng the
influence of the Crown, it wont to rocrease butt j
fie if his Majesty's. prescttt 'Ministers were, to dis-
pose thus ofevery place, %dn would be left their
successors fir the remuneration of public servieetis ?
.Wattld it not be streie.;thenitig the has of Mini-
sters at the expence of the real prerootive of the
...Crown,, or of the -Sovereign who might htVceed.
Indeebeanetntcll'uea' wechi,olptston‘l':e".llut(:)r
.in which t!le matter• hail
Mien that' it wars the t t't4ut
of some under,letud management. Why were not
Ministers present .to express their sentimetes upon
;it ? why were they net present, and a\ in their
opposition to the measure, their dkreg.vd con-
tempt 'of public opinion and expeaation ? No, they
shrunk, from such a task, and left, it seems, to their
coenexions,, who might be sent clown for the pm-
pose, this: management of a 'business
themselves were ashamed,openly to undertake.

Lord ARDEN declared, that he'aMed in the to ti-
ter frotu a pure ondiincere sense of duty, and tir,t
he was not to be sent down by any • tnan, or set' vE
men, to petforin'what he conteived.to be his duty.
Lord Alf: LVILLB igrced with the Noble Earl
(Lauderdale), ,thit MiniSlers Ought' to have
their places, to .expre,is their sentiments
tite tendency of this tue:ISIIII2,.for they ottglif t j I,ilvo
,been present. 10 ito.ser_t Coo Jost piQroi:;:niye, 2,
11:.
roW .wilich this liwitstitt; w:ts so
encroach' upon. 'So tar he coincided 11. ,t
N'oLvleLoti, but upon every point of tile ..,
'he completelvdisagree,l w:th t, 0,,1
not. the Nohlt! .%f
all,tte.areat PerS_9lls Ili)(111. 111 i Side r,r th'.'
Wrtydid'thoy, .\! ho btxtsftd
gio:11 authors at the BA. (tin, ;,/ 1
tOr its w; Lir
tinnct.; uI tite t?nc.: w.sti a SQI the al;,,iefice
to the tit.-.!! its at the jut.•ll,
he denied the truth of 'the pritici,,ie trutt,
Ityhielt.it had
,been argue:l. ft Wils IieVIT the plan-
s, eiple ptautice of the Constitution to rentatkr.ve
pt,l.hhc service's tnertily in
.111 C person at those who
Atad performed thtn o ; wo had only ta lay: h
to the distinctions attd the l'ewarls that t
ern .berstoyed, ntit :only OZ our brave AAimil ,
and AistingiuShed uenerak but aku on tity.L.,
11.1,1 deserved ...La tht;
C,otiwtriy: by Ocit civil sc 1% ices , t rewq rt
nd, 1191 tours bong:l-red on the in et tali-led Maly to t hen'
Al 9. pit,ts99,,l, 0: .* thoy 1101:111110s:
lykeit, wraittp.utl to 11?..!iriict
W t.lnitilen aii,l
nitt wooll betinunti of Ow
,
; re.4tujtv,i i .y ;, •
'Polislotke„,C#' ‘,9tY:Telic'r!eio Ue ti;(1.
upup.tms_nliqter, 'l,hat

:

I

nareh litatescaan 'readily admitted that the people. '
of Eogland might have chosen another Sovereign ; 4
that they might have adopted any other form of .GO-
- than the Monarchical form; but that
when once they had adopted, that form, they must
have strengthened it by the power of granting favours
and emoluments.; formithout such t power nothing
was so feeble, o precarious, so defenceless as a Mo-
uarehY- Thetahte was hisopinion 3. it was an opinion
'iandlioned by the wisdom and praclice of our ancestors
in the best of times; ,nett' opinion he shotdd.per-
' severe and etallfid:int lie was that the Natinn' had no
desire to akerit, or fO-Ofierarthe legitimate Prero-
gative and Infitiiike of- the:CinWn:
Laid I?'OLL.IND replissl to the Noble. Viscount:
lie contenderi that his Noblr Friends were not ab-
sent from any derelNoiti of their duty had' they
been .aware of such an opposit,i6p ft) 'the Bill, they
most.certilinlY' 'would have' been 'found"in their ,
places to defend it. 'But had' been nearly
a month below,their; I.4brdshiplv without the least
whisper of arty intended opposition to it : and when
the Noble; llord (Arden) at length thought proper.to
signify that intention, his notice of it &tied only froth
yester,day. Upon thy wh6te,. circiitivitanes
that attended this uttexpe4.:,ted 'oppOsitlep to ;a. M
acre whichlad.beenbronght .into the other litome
under: such impteive soletutlities, the Jatene4 of
the period of the Sesz,joul,, when it was oppe,;ecl; and
the meonsistency betNyicy. the'recommentLuionof it
from the Crown, and the present 49sition front
the Ministers, were ail circumstances That a
very iittipieions aspect, and nittq rendei siicli. a Can-
do& highly disgusting to the Country:,
Lord I.,,,,untntnALE read the passage froM
,the
King's Speeches, whieh, he contended, recom-
mended the measure to Prirlititnent •
Lord 11,1 P,L VILLE contended, on the other hand,
that the speeches 'frem the Sovereign retonnnended,
only the regulation of , the public expenditure, and
that the objea of' this Bill hadnothing to do with .
that expenditure.
Lord SELIC/RK deprecated any opposition to the'
Bill, and .wished that the grOund might be left cle4r
and unebstru6ted, for Whatever reform, it was poasi7
ble to make, and w hich' the Nation at large have so
anxiously been expecting. ,
Lord 13011ING.D ON- could not but differ, on the
'present occasion, from those with whom he had ge-
nerally the honour of oaing, and hoped they would!
throw no impediment in the way of public economy,
which was so desirable at all times, but tnegt para.;
cularly at the present trying crisis. •
Lord flot,tet4n: moved,' that the Debate 'be at'
least deferred till to-morrow, that
,Ministers might'
have ao opportunity of attending.
The 'loose divided on the Amendment, Con-
tents, e--Non-Contenti, 15---Majority 6.
The Original Qtiestien was then put and negx-
tived, and the Motion that the be read a second
time this clay three months was carried.—Adjourned.

ROUSE OF commcilvq,

'IIIEBDAY, AUG. 4.

A sMeisage from the Lords declared their Lord-
ships assent to the Frogmore Lands Bill, the Wool-
len Manufacture• Bill, the • Cot The Duty Bill, the
Members of Parliament Equity Bill, the London and
Wetitminster :Coal Bill, the Limerick Paving Bill,
and die Windsor Forest Bill, with an annetulment.
The Consolianted Fund Bill wag read, a second
time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.

A Person from Greenwich Haspital,presented the
Accounts from that Establishment under the Prize
Ai% '4l Cieo. HI.

Thu Fortiign Goads Intercourse Bill was read a
thied tithe dud passed.' •
The 'Military Canal Bill was reported, and ordered
to be read a third time to.morrow. • '

Mr. lioiswiuse brought up, the Report 'af 'Ate
Committee of Supply. The Resolutions ;ter grant.
ing Votes of Credit for 4,300,0001. for Great Britain,
and 506,00.01. for Ireland, were agreed to, and Bills
ordered accordingly.
The Spirit Drawback Suspension Bill was report-
ed, and ordered to be read a third time to.morrow.,
After some Observations from Sir.J. NI4PORT, re-
,commending a -final' arrangement of this point,
which was far too important to be left to measures
of mere temporary regulation, Mr. listsmsson said,
it was matter of some difliadtv le make the final
arrangement desired by the Right Hon. .114ronet,
and therefore the renewal of the suspensiim became
stecosiitry, in order to allow time for turther.consi-
deraiion. The attention of his Majesty's Govern-
, meat would be given to the anbjed early in the next
Sesi>iph, when a Committee up stairs may inquire
into the arrangements which it may be proper tirtally
to adopt.
The Auelion Ditty 13111 went thrnith a Commit!
tee. The report to be •received to-morrow. The
nth" Trader pill`went throngh a Committee, in
which the Bottnties were extended -to Cottons and
Cillcoes exported from Ireland. The Report to he
rccei.ed to-morrow.

Wltuvroig gave notice,. that to-morrow be
Wo,ilit move to pogpone the consideration of the
Salt;h Vetition, which now stood for Thursday neict.
• On tlie inotion of Mr. WillTBItgAD, the House
protecJed to the farther consideration of the Reliort
of the Rirovbial S{llool

I/1/4\,m GIDDY expressed a fear, that: the
difichich of the are of reading would be the means of
intlan,ing the ha,' passions and confirming the absurd
prejudices of the lower classes, such us their belief,
that hoarding corn tended to starve them, and that •
the ti,,e of machinery iu manufaetures reduced the.
value of them labour.

M. SMITH considered eduCation as a;guarante4-.
• pai6ion and prejudice, and recommended the
publication of cool and slinply reasoned tracts outhe"
laadm ionciples which it wits important to impress,
such as the utility of mAchinery,•4c. Education.. in
• initance; would tend to 'col-reel; riitlief--than
to depraVe, „- •-•-
_ _

Mr. Pol,r, CAIIEW thought enlarged edutatiati in-
entb6tent with the humblehtsituitions df life. It
was enough that such' persons should be able to re4d
/he Church Catechism. lie prz,posed rn ottir the
pravislocs for cre4ting and vtuchasing budding% Jar
schools.

Arr. WHITBREAD considered the 'argunients
urged by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last as
Trendy completely refuted both in ,and out of tho,
ouse.. fr woluld impasible tet(give, education
without buildings to give it in. The original words
view suffered to stand.

Several CI awes aaic,l A.Oendmervs were introciticed;
among which danse propowd bylll..!`.lnits
for giving aid O.:a Parochial Fun& to an min tint
nott.exceedinz'i. its. One pounkl,. :,chnot:i • al- •
ready ere6ted-by volut;tav contribution m:ly-be made
by such aid to the education required. _
Mr. POLF. CAREW propnhed to omit that part of
thel)teatnble ‘k hich citca the experience of the
happy efi'&7.ts of education in Scotland.-
Mr. WU:MI.IM „put to the same effa&. He-also
was fear -1-111 of the tzl etieCta of excessive cduettion.'

Mr. war acted the Preamble, and :/
the principle. of,, gibing education, He was sorry
that in a .mind so enlightened as that,of his Right
Hon. Friend, there should be a speck so dark as the
hostility he. professed: 16. general ednaation. He '
Commented largely. on the inconsistency of a person
so learned and enlightened: entertaining and uttering
sentiments so averse to the dittitsion of krinwledge—
Sentiments which were, fad, lust .the same as
those put into the fiftieth of Jack Cade by Shakspeare.
There had been lamentably a •previous instance of ,
that inconsistency, in , his Right Hon. Friend's Iros
the abolition of the Slave Trade. It:kit:s6°n
would each men to know their duties, and to perform
the M----to /MOW their rights, and to maintain therti.
Paili'arbent must know, and ought' nut to refuse to
aCknowledge the happy effects. of eduCation in Scot-
land. Yrevfous to the system of education in Scot
lanci, the titate,of that Country wag as deplorable as
it ..oas .now happy. On these grounds, he would
persist in pressing the preamble.
Sir THOMAS ruaToti spoke.infavout.of the orris.
sign proposed by ML,Carew, and. maintained the
shiliCiency of die present .siate.-of voluntary educa-
tion. The_Mutiny, in the Fleet had been excited by
reacting iothonmatorYtra&A. • •
MAct.r:op spoke at length on the nature of
the education given in Scotland.. This. education
was principally of a religions nature. 'With that
foundation, reading and writing mast be essentially
I beneficial. •,

Mr. WINDHAM, in explipation, said he was not
hostile tweilneatleti properly understood. -• '
Mr. Rose ! thooght sedition would have less.to
work upon, if the people at large knew how to read.
Mr. WILBEtiFORCE warmly the.ar- •
gutnents of the Lion. Baronqt- (Sir T. Turton), and
was sure,, that when he ei;:imincd his prentises
more accurately, he would find that they led to con-
clusions to which he would.by tit) means be willing
to assent. What ! was it to be an argument against
the cultivation of our faculties, that those faculties
might be abused ! If so, then it would be better to
extinguish that which he bad ever couc,'ived to be
by divine favour the ellara4teristic of human nature,
and that Which distinguished ,it brutal. He
contended strongly, against • leaving out- either the
former or the latter part of the Preamble,. particu-
larly the former, which contained a proposition,.
namely, " that the instruction of yoUth tended to
morality .and virtue," the omission of which„in his
opinion, would be disgratiefill, as after such repeated
discussions it would appear as if. the House of Corn- :
mons had discov'eredith fallacy. Nor would he be wil-
ling COgive hp the latter pait of the Preamble, ‘'Vhich
reterreci to a ooantry (Scotland) in which the'malti-.
plied advantages of education in the improvement
of the character of a" peoplo . were 'most apparent.
In his eagerness to prevent:other people from learn,.
ing to read, the Hon. Baronet seemed, to have ab-
stained from reading himself; for if he h$ read the'
Bill, he would hive perceived that a complete qptlon
was given. to the puur whether they would aliuw
their children to be instructed or not, . This was a
subjett on which he spuke with a confidence which
he never, felt when delivering his sentiments Oil po-
litical (111Q5iiOnii. The diff.irent (=duet of Scollantt.
and Ireland under recent circumstances, aud\ the
rapidity with which every feeling :approacnittg- 'to
disloyalty subsided in the one country, w in the
other rebellion burn forth, was a cuavincing•proof
of the advantages of education.
Sir T.l'uteroty explained. • •
Mr.,P. Gtnny replied to, the Hon. Gentleman,
and ailiong, 'other statements observed, that in the
West of Ireland, where the rebellion raged with the
greatest del reo of violence, there .was scatc4.V.tin
individual who had not been moderately instructed.
who had Pot learned to read and tvfit.e.
Mr. LOCKHART and Mr. Du.t.ow defender} - the
preamble: • • • -
Mr. •CiItATTAN. supported the Bill, and declared
that he did not think knewlet"lge.too general, .even
among :the -higher orders. He dwelt with great
praise on the plata of' Ed'acation in Semiarid,
.but'
conteudedthat Ireland was by no means an illiterate
country, 'especially.the South of it ; he wished, how-
esPrr, that the benefits of instruction might be more
generally .diffused. ' •
On the suggestion of the SPaknen, Mr. P;
n.,v divided his amendritent. The first 'part. was,
that the word " religious" .should precede time word
" instruction "in the preamble. • ;
Mr. :Ws:matte.% objeeted intrtdatlion,
as calculated to give a talse gloss, and to- intimate
that it was intended the Parishes should teach oral-
ly the Catechisni, the Creed,
Mr. WILBRItViiiiCE observed, that in his niind
"instru4iott," 'and " religious instrnCtien," when
applied to.childree, were synoniions' terms..
however, he must vote. for the word ." religions."
Mr. SIIRRIDAN remarked, that if thei words of the.
Preamble were to bc
,"'thercligious'inStruaion," it
would seem, to preeledo any other kind.
SPEAKRII , suggested the introduction Of -the
.word " in au early part of` the ,preamble,
by which the- difficulty would be obviated.
The CuA.NCi3I LOit of the' ExcilltQUEß' proposed
that the Words 'phOulkl by " the right instrOlien."
ag amendment of • the Ski:A.lOW and, of lhe
enitreeta.oa of the Excl:lii6ll/?At were .aevtorally
,
Mr, P. CiAtiiw then moved san' tunendment that
the alluion in the preamble to Scotland be •01,ilittpd.
A division ensued, fOr the otnenchnent, tlB-- ata+,iinst
33.--majortty,
VJfrmUTnitm.Au moved, that the,Bill-be read ti
third 'time on Tlintsday. • '
The CHANCELI,OII of the Exenviiu4ti. recom,
'mended, that, as' it did not appear possible that .the
818 ;coitia,;paks Both . Houses dub, ig the. present
`Session;,: it should be printed'asamended, andstand
cheer until tilti net. ',3eagion,`:daing *Ohl it
miaeygo the ponstdei.,ation of the Couutri,
Mr. WiIITIII4AII, however, wa.; deinous thalthe
Bill; if possible, should pays into a law 'during the
Kenai Session, acid at knit sit should tece,ive the

Fari6tiir) of (be Tip me of,Qoa.nons. lle did not

ny. IlMesAity fei i• the pri Laing it.
CUANCELL,e,R of the EXCllLainit said is few
words, but in a tow of voieeso line-, that it was itn-
pOssible w hear him. invpose,'however,- that
liecnocecied the point to ilr. Whitbread., fur the
Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Thursday..