The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-12 00:00:00

could hava no right to expect the House of Commons to
acquiesce in their amendments, more especially after they
had rejected a measure supplying the deficiency now com-
plained of. He wished to take this opportunity to tat an
the part of a Noble and Learned Friend win) had been ab-
sent the whole of the session, that there were several mis-
apprehensions abroad on this subject, which gave him con-
siderable uneasiness. First of all he had desired him (Viseoott
Melbourne) to state that it was not upon his ttietlan that
these clauses continuing the trustees were introduced. It
,eras proposed, as the Noble and Learned Lord stated, he
believed,- by the Earl of Radnor, and was assented to by
Ilia), in common with the rest of the House. He had
also desired him (Viscount Melbourne) to state that he not
unlY undertook to introduce a Bill, but that he did intro-
duce a Bill, which was subsequently given up, and that
Parliament not having legislated on the subject was not to
e attributed to any negligence, or to his absence on ac-
vaunt of indisposition. The Noble and Learned Lord had
!tited the inconveniences which would ensue if things were
tie
leift as they stood. Other inconveniences would follow from
loss of the measure, but then he would say that the
fault did not lie at the door of the Government, or at the
door of the House or
has chargeable, upon those who had refused, when an op-
ortunitv presented itself, to legislate upon the subject.
aais his (Viscount Melbourne's) opinion with respect
to the first point referred to by the Noble and Learned
Lord ; and with respect to the second, he differed entirely
fr el' the Noble and Learned Lord, for he thought it a
little too much to give to a man chosen by lot such an ex-
Insive power as a casting vote. He should therefo con-
e °de by moving that the word "not" be insertedre es an
4zilendment to the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord.
toThe Earl of RIPON thought it incumbent upon him
. vindicate the managers from the reproach cast upon
cony
them
nby the Noble Viscount, nt
reproach which, he was
the 'need, arose only from his Noble Friend's not knowing
ph course adopted by the managers of the House of Com-
a.course perfectly consistent with their own rights,
bt!_t oae which rendered it impossible for the managers on
% !ie Part of their Lordship to enter into any verbal discus-
I • of U point fact, the representations made were not
VOCe. but contained in a written paper, which he (the
the
of Ripon) believed to be identical with a paper which
4eclefliouse of Commons had brought forward on a former
eAr7oce on this Bill. Nothing, therefore, he thought,
4aLtlbe more reasonable or proper, not being invited to
aSion by the managers of the Commons, that the ma-
V 3 of the Lords should pursue a similar course, and
T‘Taater to the Commons their
reasons in writing. With re-
oe..it to the clauses themselves, he trusted their Lordships
adhere to their original decision. The Noble Viscount
4'iern?d to think that there was something very unreason-
elks the casting' vote to a person who was to be
the uell ey let. For his own part, he could not see in what
as it nrclisonableness consisted. By one clause of the Bill
eAs Passed last session, in the cleetion of councillors, in
mayor I an equality of votes the power was given to the
and assessors to decide who were elected into the
aa4tjittnii•
'l But the next clause went still further ; for
kspect to the first election, it was provided that the
lateY°P alone—independent of the assessors—the mayor of
kle%tuld Co.cporation, which it was the object of the Bill to
should be the person who was to possess the cast-
4vc'tea--(Hear, hear.) The Bill, therefore, as passed
did allow a casting vote. (Lord Melbourne
p%;l Ao 'election by lot.") He (the Earl of Ripon) ad-
ted'that the cases to which he had referred were not
ip),e,sti,erls of lot ; but the House of Commons had itself ad-
the" td the principle of proceeding by lot. With respect to
Dix klministration of the charitable trusts, the Noble
ote,e6ont had complained that they had treated the House
11),'°Mmons in a " contumelious"—he believed that was
ivord and offensive manner ; but that observation
'o at least have no reference to the act of the House,
dti Sitever application it might have to the conduct of indivi-
Aiqt kembers ; but the House at any rate was not reopen-
))
te for anything which any individual might be supposed to
.t.,? said or done upon the subject. When, however, the
i4l°°,lo Viscount threw upon that House all the blame of
tit'oconvenience or difficulty which might arise, he (the
1,17t1 of Ripon) could not but think that the Noble Lord
cot the circumstances under which the Corporations Act
,hit"ndment Bill came up to that House. Their Lord-
-IJIP would remember that it was early in the session
,"e:11 the Bill was brought up. Upon the second reading
04();,`°118. objections were stated to it ; and it was agreed to,
merely, as' he thought, with the consent of his Majesty's
evernrnent—(Hear, hear)—that the
,Bill should be re.-
4e.''',ed to a Select Committee, for the purpose of consi-
le`pring how those deficiencies might be removed, and the
its"4sure be made most applicable to the purposes for which
tv was framed ; and he would confidently assert that there
Lkk_4 nothing in the conduct of that Committee which
ed any disposition to do that which was unfair or un-
to sonabl6.—(Cheers.) The Bill itself was most deficient
tlatin'ause of its provisions, and contained very dangerous
alatter,t'll -Their Lordships had thought fit to defer the
tf A.._ another session ; and then, because, on the 4th
:4StI
ug.ust, they found it impossible to deal in detail with a
nindre
of great importance and delicacy, they were to
aiell-j"e answerable for all the difficulties and inconve-
af thes--(Cheers)—arising from such a delay. The cause
e difficulty, he maintained, was the time when the
dill
brought forward.—(Cheers.)
exit :V ROLLA ND rose merely for the purpose of say-
apr," evi' words upon the criticisms which his Noble Friend
able seemed to feel so severely. A man most remak-
tea int' his talents, Mr. Oliver Goldsmith, said—" With
Peet
allt. to arguments, I always find myself to have the ad-
collt.'ie of my antagonist when I am alone ; but when I
pant- the presence of my adversary, that fancied ad-
teer,-ag.,o is speedily gone." Now, Noble Lords opposite
thy,
to be acting in the spirit of that observation for the
th'e, and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) had made a speech
IV), Lordships that night of considerable power, and
,PPeared to produce a great effect upon the House,
lliat.etY,lng• the reasons for insisting upon the amendments of
free ouse, but which reasons he had not delivered in the
far conference. Now what was the meaning of a free con-
•Nst.ee ? Their Lordships well knew that upon differences
;144 the between the two Houses conferences took
.place,
btit,llo reasons of each House were tendered in writing ;
Iketi`'Y the interchange of these reasons, neither party having
of peonvinced, the next step according to the rules
4,_tliament, was the holding of a free conference.
to/Ar, he would ask, where was the reason in such a
'atio„e,c4f Proceeding as had been adopted upon this oc-
%„rf: r If Members of that House were sent to a free
tl5 thence, and did not debate at all—he would not go
tlittlie extent of saying that such a course would lower the
epetY of "the House, but it at least led clearly to an infe-
to4? that the reasons alleged by the other House were so
caring they
ng that did not know how to answer them.
‘llet,-"‘ainlY must confess that he was surprised that the
ase whom they had employed, having abandoned their
ilp4;'''auild have come to their Lordships, and again pressed
t4t arguments which they were afraid of maintaining before
ooinll°.— .
tagonists (Hear ) He thought the amendments
'h
Y wrong. If they adopted those amendments they
ieh e,mail upon the poor people the kind of catastrophe
Lord'ble had 'described, and the rejection of
t
' ,:4e,uld produce nearly the same effect. The
014 °` Commons had told them what they required.
bstst 4ps-?-r.) They said in all propriety and courtesy, " You
C t'°n your amendments ;we dissent from them ;b u
41il 71?(1 as to tell us your reasons." The matter, however,
114`," f "en dumb show.—(Laughter, and " They did not
`-arq '""1 Lord Lyndhurst.) " I deny it," said the Noble
ik"°‘ I'l did ; for the Noble and Learned Lord could
bat the Of Parliamentary language if he was not aware
ease
.a tl .eY did ask for reasons by demanding a free
to confer-
ibthit,-(Hear, hear.) If it did not mean that, it meant
11')e a-a..'"•72-,(llear, hear.) He denied that the managers for
"Initions bad tendered their reasons in writing ; they
!74rteopeceati their speech, which was of course previously pre-
Ile supposed the Noble and Learned Lord had
'LAT° t... 7 84111 e—had read his speech.—(Lord Lyndhurst—
spoke it.") Then he could only say, that since
4ed t,ekvoltition, during which ten or twelve free conferences
t 1.;• el -en Place, it would be impossible to find a single one
4t, d such a course of proceeding as the present had
IQea la °Pted.---(Hear, hear.) In some instances there had
tb
a<tb,. g debates ; in all some reasons had been stated. It
q.—`l said that this proceeding was calculated to lower
that House; but he would venture to say,
pent' eons the tt as lowering and degrading to Parliament itself, if
the nature -r
an caraer of hose confe-
,a c „ free c on,erence wasd theh character
last resort— tit was that
„stsoit "he transaction at which they were driven to 'their
‘l,llO ts."-i (Cheers.) What else could it mean ? Was it,
,"(1)\vol;
Conteirlitetelto the judgment ofthe Members appointed
114 e have l ence to conic back to the House and say,
otlve giso ward the reasons of the Commons ; but weof .
'lrguments of our own ; we have not addressed ,Ictathem to th •
' e jury ; but we are all against. the ver-.
to co,ile peers,) Was it to be permitted to the Counsel
persistuack to his client and say, " I advise you strongly
4oa, though I have not one single word to say for
kTI --(Cheers
t, 'e lauxF .) •
Fr, Lora, 'OF WELLINGTON rose and said,-
131epd.1„-, after what has been stated by my Noble
‘_4on :...epaors?lie, I confess I was surprised to hear the Noble
flo!to again blame the managers on the part of
t,)1.4 Rt the I.IiPS for not going into a debate on the ques-
-1114 (leb,4s_t ce conference ;. my Lords, there was no room
at
tt, the hear)—and lam extremely surprised
th boa", hie Baron opposite and the Noble Viscount
p Per, "of his Majesty's Government, should have been
11441,t.havi°,:',.3 to reprove my Noble and Learned Friend for
(!t,'N; ,t!.), entered into debate, and particularly for not
re,s4:aNte4t,ed the reasons, which he has since so eloquently
khio your Lordships, they diapproving in the
41,711 tio.lLl;le manner possible of' every one of the reasons
Lords,
they
he delivered on the part of that Rouse ; but, '-oer. ate the reasons of the House, and not their