The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-05 00:00:00

NAVY FIVE PER. CENTS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the. Day for the House resolving itself into a Commit-
tee on the Navy Five per Cents. Transfer Bill.
Mr. GRENFELL suggested that it would be advisable to
leave out the clause which, in general terms, empowered the
Treasury to remunerate persons for assisting to carry the Bill
into execution. At present it was impossible to tell what would
be the necessary labour of the Bank, and he strongly objected
to the clause in its present general state.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the cir-
cumstance of the degree of labour being as yet unascertainable,
was, in his opinion, a reason for adopting the clause, subject to
the future approbation of Parliament.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee, the Bill
was agreed to, except the clause in question ; upon the feeding
of which,

Mr. GRENFELL said, he certainly (should take the sense of
the Committee on the subject.

31r. ELLICE said, that on the thizd reading of the Bill he

should propose a clause respecting the time allowed for dissent.
ing to the measure.

GRENFELL said, the reasoning of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had not convinced him. He did not think, the
number of assenters or dissenters would materially affect the la.
bour of the Bank. But whether it did or did not, he thought
it Would be better to Make the necessary arrangement with the
Bank in the first instance. He therefore moved that the clause
empowering the Treasury to remunerate, be left out.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee
divided, when there appeared—
For retaining the clause
For rejecting it
Majority -
On our re-admission into the Gallery, we found
Mr. CALCRAFT addressing the Committee. He coin.
plained of the shortness of the time allowed for dissenting to
the measure. It would, in effect, be no more than five days.
Mt. MABERLY also thought the time too short. He
trusted it would be extended, for he was sure the measure would
give general satisfaction when considered out of doors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the
time quite sufficient.. A longer time was allowed to Trustees
than to'those who held the Stock in their own right, and who
might be supposed to make up their minds more readily than.
Trustees.

• 7f3

Mr. CALCRAFT disclaimed any wish to retard the Bill ;
but he still hoped that further time would be granted for the
expression of dissent.
Mr. ELLICE said many questions would arise out of the
Bill, which must be answered satisfactorily, before some of the
Holders could express their dissent. For instance, if one of
several Trustees dissented, and the rest assented, it might be
proper to consider what would be the effect of this difference of
opinion.
NIONCK highly approved of the measure itself; but
for that reason he wished that time should he given for those
who were interested in it to give it due consideration.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, the public could not be considered
as having notice of the Bill until it had passed. No one, he be-
lieved, could doubt its beneficial operation ; but that of itself
ought to support the application for time.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, it was by no means improbable that
the Bill would not receive the Royal Assent until the 16th of
this month, the day mentioned for the first class to express
their dissent. Unless time were given, he feared the public
would, though erroneously, suspect that something was pur-
posely concealed.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
principal information which the holders of the stock could re-
quire was that which appeared by figures and sums ; and
these had already been published in the Resolutions of the
House.

Mr. ELLICE said, that any person interested in the stock
might petition the other House, and pray to be heard by Coun-
sel against the measure ; and this alone might retard the course
of the Bill. He feared there would be some difficulty in carry-
ing into effect the proposed plan of paying off the dissenters in
turn. It was probable that the letters of dissent would he very
numerous in the last hour of the last day. There might also be
a difference in the value of the stock, occasioned by the dissent
being early or late.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the plan
of paying off the dissenters had been dearly laid down. The
letters would be numbered, and the writers would be paid off'
in their number.

Mr. ELLICE said, he had no wish to cavil at the mea-
sure, but really it appeared to him more and more impractica-
ble after every explanation.
Mr. T. WILSON said, there would be much difficulty as to
the course to be taken by executors, who were required to pay
annuities secured upon the interest arising from this stock.—
It might be a question, whether the annuitants would not have
a'claim upon the residue of their testator's estate, to make up
the deficiency. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that all
persons who had invested their money in this fund had done so
with a full knowledge of the legal, and a presumed knowledge
of the probable, consequence of their doing so.
Mr. T. WILSON said that, in the case he had mentioned
by Way of explanation, the legacy duty would have been paid to
Government on the full amount of the annuity.
Mr. MABnRLY thoit4ht much confusion would arise in
consequence of the difficulty suggested by the last speaker; lot
trustees would, if possible, shift their stock, in order to avoid
any responsibility.
Mr. MARTIN -expressed his doubts as to the possibility of
carrying the measure into execution. He had spoken to seve-
xal Bankers, and persons connected with the Bank of England,
who had expressed their belief that it was impracticable. He
wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether he had had
any communication with the Bank on the subject ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
of course communicated with the Bank on the subject. They
thought it was, in all respects, practicable. •
The House then resumed, and the Report was brought up
and ordered to be taken into consideration on Thursday.

Sir. MABERLEY gave notice that on .'Thursday next he
should move for a Return of certain Accounts connected with
the Land Tax Office.
SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. •
On the Order of the Day being read for the House to go into
a Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates,
Mr. DENMAN said, he observed that there were-other
Orders of importance on the paper—Orders which, as had been
done before, would possibly be disposed of in a thin and ex-
hausted House at one o'clock in the morning. &mil was ,the
manner in which a Bill of great importance—he meant the pill
of Indemnity for the Seizure of Arms in Ireland—had been
carried through the House at one o'clock on Saturday morning;
a Bill which in principle was highly objectionable, and to the
execution of which the strongest difficulties would present
themselves. There was another Bill of great importance in the
Orders for that night, and one which required the utmost consi-
deration—he meant the Smugglers' Commitment Bill ; and he
had only to. hope that it wculd not, at an unseasonable hour,
-be
hurried through the House.

Mr. ‘VAIrRE said, that the practice of hurrying Bills
through the House, without affording an ample opportunity of
discussion, was a practice which ought not to be allowed. -
Mr. O. BENNET said the practice was most objectionable,
and he would take care that it should not go on.
•
The House then resolved itself into Committee.

Lord PALMERSTON then rose to submit to the Committee
the Army Estimates for the present year. He said that :tie
should have the pleasure of showing considerable reductions in
this department of the Public Expenditure, and that, exclusive
of the Veteran Battalions, the Estimates f this year, as com-
pared with the last years, would show a reduction of 12,304 in
the number of men, and of 537,0001. in pecuniary amount.
Before he entered into his details, he begged to observe; that
there were one or two misprints in the papers on the table, and
that a vote of 5,7001. was to be struck out of the ixcounts for
Yeomanry Estimates, in consequence of another clothing ar-
rangement which had been made since they were printell.
The great reduction had been made in the inland force:—
When the reduction first came under consideration, three modes
of =ducting it had been pointed out. First, to reduce entire
regiments ; second, to reduce a given number of men in each
troop or company ; and third, to reduce whole companies in
each regiment. The last mode was preferred • and adopted as
combining the greatest extent of saving, and leaving the most
efficient strength. It bad also this advantage over eithera the
other modes of disbanding that it would not alter the forni of
rotation of regiments abroad. The reduction was effected in
this manner—two, regiments of cavalry had been reduced en,
tirely, two troops were reduced in each remaining regiment
of cavalry, and two companies in each remaining regiment
of .the line. In Ceylon, a regiment was to be paid' by the
&Dimly; and a regiment in India was to he relieved from thence,
whereby some saving would also be effected. The following
were some of the departments in which a saving had been effect-
ed !- -In the staff there was a saving of 13,5711.—in other
public departments of 12,000 L—in medicines of.9e2C4l.—in -vo-
lunteer corps of 3,5001. He begged, before he proceeded far-
thereto. remark, that there would be an additional saving •of
51,0001. this year, were it not for the disturbed state of Ireland.
In the Military College there was a saving of 3,2531., which was
effecte.d by a reduction in the emolume its of sense .of the pro-
fessers, andan increase of the contribution of students. Having
alluded to the diminution in some of the departments, he had
to remark, that there was a small increase.in the pay of General
Officers, to.the amount of 3,8561., in consequence of the-Par-
liamentary arrangement which had been pressed upon Govern-
ment during the last year, respecting the full pay of regimental
commissions. Some small garrison appointments made an in-
crease of 6901., and the full pay of retired officers caused an
addition of 15,0001. In the general pay and nulitery allowances
there was an increase of 51,0001., arising (neeeSsiatily) out of the
reductions made in the arrangement of the land retees. ;,,The fo-

reign half pay was diminished 6,3951. by casualties, and the abo-
lition of the agent for foreign half pay. The business would in
future be transacted by the Paymaster-General. In the in-pen-
sioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham there was a diminution of
-6,8531., owing to the fall in the price of provisions, and the
economical arrangements of the Paymaster-general. In the
out-pensioners, there was an increase of 34,0001. necessarily
arising out of the reduction in the regiments. In the Royal
,Military Asylum there was a reduction of 60001. The com-
passionate list remained the same as last year, but there was an
increase exceeding 30001. in the widows' pension list. The re-
duced adjutants of local militia had been this year transferred to
the general rfalf-pay estimates. There was an increase in the
superannuated allowances of 3,2811. There was last year ten
-veteran battalions ; there were but three in the present, and a
-saving of 67,0001. in that department; but, as he had set out
.41. th saying, .putting the veteran battalions out of the question,
there was a saving of 12,000 men, and 537,0001. (Mr. Hume
said across the table, that he made it 540,000.) This great sav-
ing, as compared with last year, had been effected in the first
class of estimates. The natural consequence of the plan of re-
duction must add, for the moment, to the retired allowances;
but in effect there was a saving, as compared with last year,
of 1-7th of the whole expenditure. The Committee would re-
collect, that the Finance Committee of 1817,0 ad estimated that
at.this period, should peace continue, the estimates for the mi-
litary service of the country, exclusive of the militia and aug-
mentation of the half-pay; when the army of occupation, then
-in France, was reduced, ought not to exceed 8,500,0001. When
the half-pay of 2,600,0001. was added to the estimate of the
Finance Committee, the. total change would be 8,760,0001. He
had the satisfaction to hfform the Committee that the estimates
'Wire, in point of fact, considerably less than that sum.—
The ordinaries were (speaking in round numbers) 6,106,0001.;
"the extroaordinaries 700,0001., '(supposing the, bargain with
the East India Company for the annual payment of two
hundred thousand pounds • for the establishment in India
to be completed); the Barracks in England, 121,6001.; Barracks
-in Ireland, 122,8001.; the Commissariat in England, 334,6541.;
and in Ireland, 109,2001. ; the total amount of the Expendi-
lure in these several Departments being about 7,500,0001., a
sum less by 1,000,0001. than the Estimate of the Finance Com-
mittee in 1817. He hail already stated that this year the
main total of saving, as the accounts now stood, was 12,000
men, and 537,0001. in the ordinaries. The savings in the Com-
missariat in England this year, amounted to 66,9291. ; in the
Barracks, 15,9001.; and in the Extraordinaries, 100,0001.; mak-
ing a total saving of 720,6781. • but including 40,0001. for Irish
Yeomanry, were it not for which the saving would be 760,0001.,
independent of the pending regulation with the East India
Company. If the latter were now carried into effect, the saving
would be 960,0001. in 'comparison with last year's estimate,
putting out of the calculation the expense entailed by the dis-
turbances in Ireland. This was the general outline of his state-
merit respecting the Army Estiinates, and he should be ready
.to affisrd any farther exvlanation. The Noble Lord then moved
that there be allowed for his Majesty's land service, at home
and abroad (excepting the Regiments employed in the territo-
rial possessions of the East India Company), 68,802 men, from
.she 25th of December, 1821; to the 24th of December, 1822,
both inclusive, being 365 days.
' Colonel DAVIES said that he never was disappointed with
:any statement more than he was by that which thp. Noble Lord
had just made. Notwithstanding the exulting manner in which
he had announced the reductions that had been made, if he
could shew that in all _of them a view had been had to pa-
tronage, the Noble Lord would not be entitled to the credit
he would otherwise have deserved. In the first place, he
had taken credit to himself for a greater amount of permanent
. saving by 53,0001. than he was entitled to, not having taken
into his calculation the amount of force then afloat on its way
from India, which would become chargeable to this country
'from the moment it landed. Thus the estimates for the ensuing
year, for the same number of regiments, would be 53,0001.
more than in this. He could not agree with the Noble Lord
- that the mode of reducing the number of the army by cons.
panies instead of regiments, was the most economical. He con-
,sidered it the most expensive. He refrained, however, from
enter:ng upon points then, but would confine himself to the
vote before -.the House. He was aware that in the amendment
it was his intention to propose he should make a saciifice of
principle to expediency; but he wished to propose a reduction
of so small an amount, that no one could object to it. He
.meant to ask for only -the reduction of four battalions, and of
these he particularly pointed at the Staff Corps, 'and the Wag.
.gon Train. The rest might well be spared from the Colonies,
.There were 58,000 men for the Colonies, of which 15,000 on

were employed in the Colonies, or whicli existed before 170.
When he adverted to '1792, the House would recollect that the
estimates were voted in the first .half year ; but when they
were presented in the latter half of the year theyshewed a di-
minution of 6,000 men, which ought to be considered with re-
, tgard to all reference to that year. The force for the Colonies
was then 13,000 men. But the new Colonies had caused an
-enormous increase. The lonian Islands alone made an increase
- of 4,000 men, merely 1.-ccause we gave them a bad Government
instead of a ood one. The garrisons were too large at the Cape
of Good !lope, at the Island of Ceylon, Malta, and the lonian
,Islands, in all of which reductions might be effected. As for the
Waggon Train, the objections urged with reference to other regi-
ments would not hold withthat. • They were no more than wag-
-gOners attached to the army, and there would be no difficulty in
raising such a corps, so long as there were persons of that descrip.
Lien to be found in the country. He also proposed the reduction
of the. Staff Corps. He did not wish that the officers should be
reduced, but they might be transferred to the generel staff of
the army. The reduction of that corps alone would be a
saving of 24,5811. Another quarter in which he thought reduc-
tion might be accomplished was in the Second Majors. It was
.known that there were two Majors to each Regiment, and
there could be no qUestion that one would be quite sufficient
•to do the duty of the two. The Honourable Member next ad-
verted to the expenditure of the Recruiting department of the
Army. It actually cost more, according to the present system,
to recruit an army of 68,000 men, than it had done for an army
of 80,900. There must be profusion here, which he hoped
would be explained. He wished to see all the paraphernalia
..of the existing system done away, in order to which it was
necessary that each party should report at once to head-
-.quarters, without having the useless appointment of one
- Officer over several parties, generally some hundred miles
distant. He also observed that charges were made under
the regimental heads of Expenses before joining, and un-
der the head of Recruiting Charges made for the same indi-
vidual. This looked very like a double charge for the same
thing. He also wished to know the meaning of an item of
1,2001. charged as the amount of a year's pay for Officers
wounded. As he could not conceive by what hazard, in these
times, a man could be wounded in the King's service; lie con-
. fessed. he looked fbr some explanation on that point. The next
thing he begged to call attention to was the riding establish-
ment at Pimlico. This was neither more nor less than a mi-
litary job ; for, whether the system taught there were
good or bad, it must by this time have been fully impart_
ed to the whole of the cavalry. Three years ago persons
had been sent from all the regiments, and had been all review-
ed by the Duke of York, and pronounced complete. He had
no objection to -there being one Riding Master General, if they
chose, who might visit the different regiments. That might
be done foe 5001. a-year, instead of nearly 40001: The con-
sequence of his amendment would be, to reduce the expendi-
ture of the army to the amount of 176,0001. The reduction in
'men he should propose, would be 3,300. He hoped Honour-
able Members opposite would judge for themselves on these
points, and no longer act with blind confidence in Ministers,
who, they could not but see, had deceived them in their pro.
mises of retrenchment. He believed, from their conduct the
other night, that a new light had broken in upon them, and,
that when a flagrant case was made out against Ministers, they
would not give them their support. The situation of the coun-
try
imperattveiy demanded further relief from taxation, and as
it was their duty to demand it, he had no doubt they would
continue to pursue the course they had so honourably begun.
The Hon. Member, in conclusion, moved, That in the place of
63,802 men, be substituted 66,502

Lord PALMERSTON said, he could not too much admire
with what ingenuity the Hon. and Gallant Member had shaped
his course, in the difficult task he had to perform, so as not to
clash with his friend. As they had, since the opening of the
Session, been the strong advocates of Martial Law in Ireland,
which would require an increase of military force, the Hon.
and Gallant Member being debarred from attacking the num-
bers of the army at home, and not being willing to let the mat-
ter pass without making an attack, directed all his artillery at
the Colonial force.—(Hear, hear !)—He (Lord Palmerston) had
an impression on his mind that the Ilonourable Member, or
his friends, had said last year that the force of the_Colonies was

reduced as low as it could be ; and, notwithstanding the army
had been reduced lower than was demanded by the Hon.
Gentleman and his friends last year, he still called for further
reduction. With regard to the proposed reduction in the
latter part of 1792, spoken of by the Hon. Member, he ought
.to know that they were never carried into effect as regarded
the Colonies. Bttt even if they had been, the amount of for&
for the same Colonies would be but 1672 over that year. That in-
cluded New South Wales, for which no one who knew the change
that had taken place there since 1792 would think 500 men too
much. The colonial force for the first half year of 1792 was
17,323. Now it was only 14,955, a reduction of upwards of
2000 upon the number for the first half year ; and looking to
what had since passed, we ought, at least, to have garrisons in
the same places equal to what they were then. The extent
of reduction last year called for by the Honourable Gen-
tleman opposite, (Colonel Davies) and his friends was 10,000
men. His Majesty's Government had reduced 12,300 Men, and
:the conduct pursued by the Hon. Member upon this convinced
/him that this appetite for reducing increased with indulgence,
„dot he immediately called fox a seduction of 5,300 men more

than he had before asked.—(Hear !)—He had expected that he
would, in consistency, have begged him torestore the odd num-
ber. This was so extraordinary, that he was sure the House
would have no difficulty in making up their minds to reject
the amendment .proposed with such marks of inconsistency
upon it.—(Hear, hear!)—As to the mode of reduction which
had been adopted, lie was satisfied that if any other step had
been taken the saving would not have been so great. With re-
gard to the Hon Member's objection to the Staff Corps and
Waggon Train; "he had so often defended them in that House
thec he was ashamed to go over the ground again. The Staff
Corps was a corps of science, attainment, and of education,
wl could not be re-established if once broken, under, a con-
sith.....ule period of time. The Hon. Member admitted the pro-
priety of not losing sight of the Officers, but the men were all
artificers and persons of education and attainment to a certain
extent. The greatest part of them were employed on works
where their presence saved a great waste of labour. The Ho-
nourable and Gallant Gentleman went to the second Majors
of Regiments. The reduction of the whole of these, counting
their half-pay, would not be a saving of more than 13,0001. The
consequence of this would be, that the regiment:4 would not be
so effective. It should also be considered that these appoint-
ments were the only doors to promotion for a large and most de-
serving class of the army—lie meant the Captains. To reduce
one half of the majority of the army would be to carry despair
amongst the whole rank of Captains—to inflict on that large
class a. privation which should not be attached to length of
service, viz.,. the removal of all chance of promotion.—(Hear,
hear !)-,With regard to the Recruiting part of the Estimates,
it was to be remembered that the charge for billeting, the
payment of innkeepers and other expenses, comprised the
regimental charges of expenses before the recruit joined. It
did not include the charge for raising the recruit. That, in the
whole, did not amount to 'more than nine or ten thousand
pounds, including bounty money, staff; and other incidental
charges. The Gallant Member did not seem to understand
fully the system of recruiting now practised. If there were
one Officer for every party, the respective regiments would
be proportionably less effective, and the expense be greater.
By the gallant Member's plan, of each party. reporting direct
with the Depot, if a party were in Northumberland, they
must send their recruits to the Isle of Wight, supposing the
Depot to be there, to be approved of, instead of the Officer of
the District. Thus Would accrue the additional expense of tra-
velling. With regard to the charge for wounds, it was to cover
any claim that might come in, by Officers coming from abroad,
for wounds received long since, cases of which description
frequently occurred. As to the Riding Establishment, that
would be reduced still lower than it was at present. If they
were to have a cavalry at all, it was necessary it should be well
instructed in riding, or it had better be dismounted. . The
greatest innconvenienee had been known to arise from diffe-
rent systems being in practice at the same time ; and as to
the establishment being no longer necessary, the Hononr-
able Member was quite wrong. A Non-commissioned Officer
could not go back to his regiment, and like a boy instructed in
the Bell and Lancaster system of education, teach the rest of
the regiment with that mathematical accuracy so requisite. to
render it certain that the whole cavalry of the army should be
practising the exact same system at the same time. It was
absolutely necessary that the Officers and non-commissioned.
Officers should appear there once a-year. lie really could not
see that the House could consider that any case had been made
out by the Honourable 'and Gallant Member, to induce them
to agree to his amendment.—(Cheering.)
Sir R. VIVIAN opposed the amendment. He was of opi-
nion that reduction in the army had been carried as far as they
possibly could. The army was now no more than a skeleton,
and it was highly necessary it should be kept up as such.
He was surprised to hear the Honourable Member op-
posite speak of the reduction of the Second Majors—a plan so
detrimental to Captains. 'With regard to the increased allow-
ance which had been made to the Major-Generals, he begged to
express his gratitude to his Majesty's Government for having
granted that boon.
Mr. HUME began by pointing out the curious predicament
in which the gallant officer and his friends stood, who last
year had supported the Ministers in condemning reduction,
and this year declared their satisfaction that such reduction
had taken place. What was the reason on which they justi-
fied this eharige ? The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last
had stated, that the diminution of force in,the colonies was
the cause whirls admitted of this seduction. BUt what was
the fact ? Why, there had been almost no diminution of
force in the colon'es between this year and last, and yet our
army was to be redtice'd from 81,000 to 68,000 men. The for-
ces in the colonies last year were 28,300,and this year 27,900,
and htscatise 400 mcu had been spared from the colonies,
therefore the army Might with safety be reduced 12,300.
'l'hus inconsistent were the reasons which were adduced to
justify an adherence to ministerial projects. The difference
between the number of troops in our colonies last year and
this, which amounted only to 400 men, was to be stated as a
ground for being satisfied with"reduction to the amount of
12,300. He (Mr. Hume) allowed that the reason for being
now satisfied with a military establishment of 68,000 men
was as good as that for being satisfied last year with 31,000—
that is, there was no reason fur either, in the state of the co.
lonics or the empire. The whole of the saving on the rote
before the House was 330,000% He (Mr. Hume) did no
know how the estimates were made out which formed the con

parison between 1817 and the present yea;.-.;IheIN:
(Palmerston's) did not agree with that of the Noble Marquis
(Londonderry), and neither with that of the committee of fi-
nance. The Noble Lord had accused his Hon. friends of being
too prone to discontent, because, said he, they only asked a re..
duction of 10,000 men last year, and Ministers have reduced
12,3000,and still they are dissatisfied. Now theNobleLord should
have done him (Mr. IL) the justice to remember, that he had
made a motion for the reduction of 20,000 men, and that he bad
been induced to withdraw it only by the pe►suasion of his Hun.
.friends, who thought that a motion fur 10,000 was more likely
to meet with success. He proposed to reduce the existing
force by 20,000, leaving the numberof our army at 60,000,
which he thought sulfic►ent for every purpose of security or
defence. He had formerly gone hack to 1792, for a period of
.comparison, and be could not help again pressing on the at-
tention of the Committee the necessity of following the
example then left us. At that time, then, our military force,
rank and•file, was 36,363 men, and including officers 45,000.
Now, what was die reduced vote of this year ?-68,000,1n-
eluding 8,000 officers. We had then 36,000 rank and file.
We had now 60,000. The marine corps then amounted to
8,000. Now it amounted to 15,000. The Noble Marquis
(Londonderry) had lately stated that this corps was employed
as a land force, and, consequently, might be added to the
land force when comparing the numbers of the army at dif-
ferent periods. Here, therefore, there was an addition to

our army of 7,000 turn over the marine corps of 1792. This
was surely too much. We had nine or ten regiments locked
up in the lonian Islands, which, with a better government of
these islands, might be withdrawn. We had 12,000 men in
the new Colonies, a-great portion of which might he reduced.
In reckoning our military force at home, the militia, the con-
stitutional force of the country, had been strangely over-
looked by the Noble Lord. That force amounted to 63,000
men, and, together with the volunteers, cost the public be-
t►►ween 600,0001. and 600,n001. per annum, sufficient fur the
pay of the rank and file of our army in 1792, exclusive of Ire-
land. The militia, the volunteer corps, the marines, and the
artillery, were all additions to our military establishment,
and ought to enable us to reduce the regular force in propor-
tion. These species of force were either useful or they were
not. If they were, they ought to supply, as far as they
went, the place of other troops; if they were not, then
why incur a❑ expellee of half a million a year for their
pay? All these troops, therefore, were to be added to
the force of the regular army. And what was there in the
circumstances of the country diffetent from 1792 to ren-
der such a military establishment necessary ? With the ex-
ception of the disturbances in Ireland, which had no political
character, and could not be termed an insurrection, though
attended with great cruelties and atrocities, he knew nothing.
The disturbances of Ireland were then of a temporary nature,
and 3,000 corps were quite sufficient. There were thus 60,000
rank and file, instead of 36,000, which would be sufficient for

all purposes. There was room fora reduction of 40,000 men,
instead of 3,300. The latter reduction was quite inadequate.
A much more effectual reduction was required, and before he
should sit down he would move a reduction of more men, by
which a sum exceeding half a minims sterling would be saved,
and that was a saving nut to be despised in the present state
of the country. In 1794 the life, horse, and foot guards,
had been 7,500. Last year they were upwards of 17,000 men.
Here was a surplus of 10,000 men. Last year the Noble Lord
bad argued that a large disposable force was required in the
country for the purpose of relief. This year the word relief
never escaped luau. Every one of the cavalry in the guards
was equal i❑ expense to a junior clerk. With it view to eco-
nomy, he would say that the Government had discharged too
many junior clerks. They should rather dispense with a few
of the cavalry. The latter were for were parade and splen-
dour about the Monarch. The guards were placed as sen-
tries in this place and that place—at the West India Docks,
and at the British Institution in Pall-mall. Ministers would

have troops to protect the Arts and Sciences, though they
were rather ruined by military protection. He would then,
upon the whole number, propose a reduction of 10,000 men,
which would make a total reduction within the last two years
of only 19,000 men ; fur 3,000 which had been added were
not to be taken into account as a reduction. When so much

was sacrificed by every class in the cominuniiy, this was surely
not too great a reduction in the army. Besides the direct
saving which would arise from this reduction, there would he
a collateral saving by rendering the extravagant staff which
was now kept up unnecessary. The increased number of
troops was the reason assigned for the extravagant staff: and
therefore,when the number of wets should be reduceff,the staff,

too, could be reduced. It was calculated that 33,0001. were re-
quired for every 1000 men. Every 10,000 men would, there..
fore, cost 330,0001. There would also be a large saving in
corttingencies, extraordinaries, anti home staff. Altogether
The saving from a reduction of 10,000 tarn would amount to
500,0001. The Nulls Lord said the forces in the Colonies
were below the number iu 5792 already. Now he found a
statement signed' Palruerston," and dated Feb. 160916,
which stated tire faces in the Colonies at 13,502 mesa. The
Noble Lord stated theta now at 14,000 torn. A reduction of
10,000 'men could be made, and-yet the marines, artillery,
yeOmanry, and militia, would be left quite effective, and the
country would still have-a superior military force to 1792.—
In 1817, the Noble Lord had stated before the Finance Com-
mittee, that by brigading the men to the number of 800 in-
stead ofloo, as in 1792, a saving of 71,0001. had been made
in every 8000 men. The Noble Lord had argued that, by this
change, as much had been gained in expence as the additional
pay had increased the expence, which was 84,0001. for eight
thousand men. How could the Noble Lord reconcile this
alle,'ed.saving with the plan of saving which he now pro-
posed, by reducing the number again to 550? Why should
-not one thousand men be the number at home, as it was
abroad, and in India? By this means the whole amount of
the additional staff would be saved. Last year the staff had
been 660,0001. This was a loss of 200,0001. They would lose
now near 200,0001. more. The reduction was therefore made
in tire most expensive way. The amount of regimental guards,
too, he supposed, was not affected by four hundred men in-
stead of eight hundred. Therefore, in this view, the
-fewer
regiments there were, the better. It was, no doubt, painful
to break up old corps, but the Duke of York had in 1706 re-
duced 110 regiments to 94. If in time of war such a reduc-
tion in time number of regiments took place, was it proper to
have 94 regiments now ?-The Americans had reduced their
army altogether, and were husbanding their resources. Why
then should we have five or six thousand men in Canada?--
He therefore snored, that 58,802 be substituted for 68,802
men.
Colonel WOOD understood the Hon. Gentleman to have
said. that a consiierableyortion of the- sums voted for the
Staff was laid out on bands of music, instead of being ex-
pended in drilling the recruits. All he could. say to this was,
that strict orders had beets given that the musical gentlemen
attached to a corps should be restricted to one drummer to
two companies, so that a regiment of ten companies would
hare five (Immune, s belonging to it, or other musicians, for
he believed they might play what instruments they liked.
The band was the most difficult part of a regiment to keep in
order, and there was no disposition to have all unnecessary
number of musicians. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of
the disorders in Ireland as if they amounted merely to a little
riot, Ile could only say that he should be very sorry to wit-
ness such riots in the country in which he lived. In this in-
stance the Hon. Gentleman took a view of the subject vers
different from that taken of it by one of his Honourable
Friends !rear him, who had thought it desirable that martial
law should be proclaimed in Ireland, which would not have
been recommended, to put down a riot. He proceeded to de-
fend the mode in which the reductions had been effected.
The Hon. Gentleman had stated the Duke of York to hare
reduced 110 regiments to 94, in 1796. But that very circum-
stance arose out of the inconveniences previously experienced
from the reductions having been made on that principle
which the Hon. Gentleman seemed disposed to prefer. New
corps had been raised early in the war, and these, when
brought into the field, had been found inefficient, It there-
fore became necessary to put two or three corps together.
Now, should a war break out, by pouring recruits into the
regiments that were kept, the old soldiers would make the
new ones, and thus working on a good foundation, all would
prove efficient.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, be would not have risen to say any
thing upon this question, bat for remarks made respecting
the state of Irelarid, in which he could not concur His ear-
liest wish bad been to get an examination instituted into the
state of Ireland, and a remedy applied to the evils which dis-
tressed that country. But there was a limit and a period to
investigation as to other thinp, and Ireland was in that state
when investigation could not be instituted, and when, not
riot, but insurrection, required the strong arm of the law.—
(Cheers from the ministerial side.) It was impossible fur him
to regard as a riot what was an open insurrection, and a defi-
ancelof law and authority.—(Cheers from the ministerial side.)
—The Government of Ireland had been most shamefully and
scandalously deceived by taco who ought to have had correct
information. He alluded to the information given respect-
ing Belfast and Mountratb. But there had been most dread-
ful outrages committed, and horrid assassinations. A Roman
Catholic clergyman had been attacked, because he had from
the altar recommended peace and good order. Could he
doubt that this was a state requiring additional military force ?
--(Cheers from the ministerial side.)—He trusted it.would
pass away, but it would be by the vigorous execution of the
law to put down violence. It would be imperious afterwards
to look into the causes of the disturbances. He never would
concur in thinking, that they ought not to be looked into and
probed to the bottom. But, while insurrection prevailed, he
hoped no Hon. Member. would seem for a moment to express
any terms of mitigation.—(Cheers.)—Having always been the
advocate of peace and examination, he was now obliged to
say, that harmony must be first restored ; and then be would
urge a thorough, complete. and radical investigation, and the
application of a full, safe, and adequate remedy•—(Hear
bear.)

General GASCOIGNE said, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen
compared the Estimates of 1792 with the present. They
I should first inquire if that of 1792 was efficient. The next
consideration was, the relative state of this country to the
rest of Europe. The army was so much reduced in 1792,
that in the following year it was supposed that there had been
something culpable in the system of management. The con-
, sequence of it was, that a brigade sent into Holland in that
year was taken for a battalion by the Austrian General. But
were they now in the sante state with respect to Europe as
they were in 1792 ? The war, in fact, could mot be yet con-
, sidered so completely terminated in all its effects, as to admit
a reduction to the scale of 1792. He would not enter into
the disNisaion now of what was passing in Ireland, particu-
larly as the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Newport) answered what had
fallen from the Member for Aberdeen on the subject. In the
present state of that country it would be most improvident
to adopt the amendment. How did they know that there was
a sufficient force in Ireland ? In 1797 there was between 30
and 60.000 there, and yet they were not sufficient to prevent
the rebellion breaking out. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen
thought the force there sufficient, but he should consider
it highly imprudent for Ministers to reduce so far as
would disable them from throwing in a further supply of
troops if necessary. Government would incur a most serious
responsibility if they were to act in this manlier. Was the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Home) so lost in pounds, shillings,
and farthings, as to forget altogether the state of Europe ?
Was it not evident to every person that the seeds of serious
trouble existed in various parts of the Continent ? In the
present state of things it was necessary to keep up a large
military force. If a strong force were not kept up in Ireland,
the Gentlemen of that country would not continue to reside
there. Did the Hon. Gentleman think that he alone knew
the amount of force necessary, that lie alone was an adequate
judge of military matters ?
Mr. WILMOT said, he would spew• that the reduction in
the Colonies amounted last year to 4,535 men in place of 400,
at which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) calculated ;
27,913 was the number stated for the peseta year by the
Hon. Gentleman. In the Leeward islands there was a reduc-
tion of 370 men. If there were certain small increases of the
force in some places, there was a decrease in others. In Malta
there was a small increase, and at Van Dieman's Land, but
there was more than a corresponding reduction at St. Helena
and the Mauritius. In fact, the general decrease amounted
to above four thousand men ; the increase at the Cape could
not be viewed otherwise than as regarding the predatory
hordes surrounding it ; and then there was no man who must
nut consider the increase as absolutely necessary. As to
Ceylon, fairly considering the area of that Colony, and the
habits of its surrounding inhabitants, the force of 1,034
men was absolutely necessary to ensure its possession to
Great Britain. Next, with respect to Malta and the lonian
Islands, it was said the increase of price was only rendered
necessary by misgovernment; but he pledged himself, on the
proper occasion,to skew that such assertions were altogether
formed in those delusions which the perusal of the public
papers had induced many to believe as truths. Taking alto-
gether the mean rate of force in the colonies at the period of
1791, be contended they were now considerably lower, all the
circumstances being taken into the account. Indeed there
was no one conversant with those stations, who did not com-
plain of a want of sufficient military force. After weighing
the statement he had made, he trusted the House would re-
ject with disdain the proposition for any further reduction.—
(Cries of bear !)—The mere mechanical repetition of 10,000
wen should not induce them to agree to a resolution unfit to
be pressed in the present condition of the country. Well
had Mr. Burke said, the age of chivalry was gone, and that
of calculation had resumed its place; and if Hon. Members
wished to diminish the position of England with regard to
that of Europe generally, they could not do better than vote
for the proposed reduction. His own opinion, however, was
widely different. .91 via pacem prefer bellum. He would
not further occupy the time of the House, fur he was satis-
fied that with regard to the force for the colonies, no further
reduction could take place.—(Hear, bear !)
Mr. BENNE'rf was not so much alarmed by what bad
fallen from the Hon. Gentleman as to be deterred front sup-
porting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. The public
burdens must be diminished. He wished to preserve faith
with the public creditor, but the public interest was of more
importance to him, and when, consistently with the public

interest, the public creditor could be paid, no longer he would
say be would not pay. The present situation, he contended,
was the natural consequence of a long course of misgovurn-
ment and oppression. The army ought to be reduced by
ten thousand men, and, but for the state of Ireland, he should
think twenty thousand would not be more than might be
spared. There was but one country in the world besides
! this, Turkey, that so mis-governed its subjects, as to make
such a force necessary as it was now proposed to keep up in
the United Kingdom.
Captain O'GRADY lamented that the affairs of Ireland
bad been improperly conducted. The military force of Ire-
land had been reduced too much. He was convinced the in-
surrection could not be put down by any thing but main
fence, but, at the same time, he was persuaded that the dis-
content in Ireland proceeded from grievances which might be
removed by the endeavour of Government. He was anxious
to support the existing force of the army, but in the Staff
and Civil Department, he thought there might be consider-
able reductions.
Mr. WARRE thought, that under all the circumstance.), the
reduction of 10.000 'nen which took place last year was suffi-
cient, and that the best mode of proceeding would be, first
to apply a cure to the existing evils, and then to reduce the

army.
Lord ALTHORP contended that the object of the Com-
mittee ought to be to reduce the expellee, as for as it could
be done consistently with the safety of the country" He did
not object to the anulunt intended for Ireland in the state
which that country presented, but he was at a loss to con-
ceive why in England we should keep up a greater number
of centinels than in 1792, and the number of sentinels se-
quired was the argument, insisted on by a Gallant Officer, 'in
opposition to any further reduction. He (Lot d Alt burp) was
of opinion that, in the cavalry regiments, a reduction of 3,000
might he made, and in the Guards, of 2,000, and he agreed
with the Honourable Member for Shrewsbniy, that 10,000
might be reduced on the foreign stations with safety to the
country. .
. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that the reduction of the army be-
ing brought to the point for which he had contended during
the last six years, he could see nothing in the sit ation of
the country, either at home or abroad, to require any farther
reduction. If he did not think so, there was no man more
willing than he should he, from constitutional and economi-
cal reasons, to support the cause of reductions. So far from
conceiving the strength of the army too great at present, he
did not know from what part of this country a disposable'force
could be sent to Ireland if occasion required it. His Hon
Friend had talked of the inability of the country to pay the
troops; but could any man say that this was not an exagge-
rated opinion ?—(Hear, hear.)—The ground onavhich he sup-
ported the presentvotu was, that the safety of,the country
required it ; but if Ireland was tranquillizrd by wise and sa-
lutary measures, then, indeed, it would he reasonable. to 'e-
duce the army. He agreed with the Noble Lord that all re-
ductions should be made by companies, and not by regiments,
in order that we might he enabled to raise an army mote
readily in any case of emergency, It was the worst economy
in the world to place our armies in a state which would ren-
der it difficult to build them up-again. Fur these reasons be
would must willingly vote for the amount required at present.
Colonel HARDINGE contended for the necessity of keep-
ing up, in time of peace, a force necessary to recruit Our Army
in time of war, and insisted particularly on the expediency of
making such a provision with I espect to the waggon-train,
the greatest military authority in the country having given a
decided opinion to the same effect.
Sir H. FERGUSSON expressed his conviction that the atro-
cities committed in Ireland ought to be put down by a mili-
tary force, and he would prefer the employment of the regu-
lar troops to that of the resident yeomanry and volunteers,
as being less under the influence of local prejudices. He
would, however, support the motion of his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hume) on the ground of the necessity of limiting our
expellees. With respect to our foreign possessions, all he
should say was this, that we ought to look at home first, and
if we found that we could not beep our Colonies but at an ex-
pence which the country could not bear, we ought to give
them up altogether. As to the.islandni of the West Indies,
he could not help thinking that they would be better de-
fended by a few ships than by a number of battalions.—(Hear!)
The questions bring loudly called for, the Committee di-
sided on Mr. Humes Amendment—
For the Amendment 5l
Against it
Majority

A second division then occurred on the Amendment of Co.
lone! Davies, for the reduction of 3,300 men.
For the Amendment.... -
Against it

184

Majority

Lord PALMERSTON next proposed that the sum of 2,C46,2991.
16s. 7d. he granted to his Majesty for the pay of the land
forces, which was ag►eed to.
Mr. HUME objected to proceeding upon the next resolu-
tion, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, and it was
not moved.
Mr. BROGDEN left the Chair, the House resumed, and the
report was ordered to be received this day.
Mr. BERNAL asked the .Noble Lord what was to be the
future proceeding. and whether it was intended to go on
with the Army or Navy Estimates ?
Lord PALMERSTON said, as the House had entered upon
the Army Estimates, they might as well go on with them.
The report would be received to-morrow, and the House
would proceed on Friday.

IRISH ARMS IMPORTATION BILL

Mr. GOULBURN mowed the third reading of this Bi

He took this occasion to reply to a remark made by au Hon.
Gentleman opposite on a former night, respecting the haste
with which he alleged a certain Bill had passed through the
House. He would appeal to ►he House whether, on that oc-
casion, he had not distinctly stated the object of the fill, in
the presence of many Gentlemen interested on the subject,
and that at no very advanced period of the evening. That
he had not shewn any disposition to press the measure with
unnecessary haste, was evident from the circumstance that
an Honourable Baronet, who sat on the opposite bench, had
delhered his sentiments on the subject, and had fully ex-
pressed his approbation of the measure. He thought it hard,
therefore, that he should he taxed with a desire to take the
House by surprise, when be had, in fact, brought forward

. . ,
the measure openly and fairly.
Mr. DENMAN said, that his observations had been, that
a Bill which involved such important principles, ought not
to have been passed except iu a House sufficiently full to
admit a fair discussion.

The Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Mr. DENMAN said, that the Bill regarding which he had
expressed himself was not of a similar nature to the present
Bill. On this Bill it was necessary that some degree of confi-
dence should be placed in Ministers, but the former Bill was
an ex post facto Bill.
Mr. GOULBUItN said, that the Indemnity Bill had been
passed to indemnify Ministers for having continued a law
which, through some inadvertency, had been suffered to ex-
pire in August last.