The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

traordinary omission of the name of the Judge who tried. the
accused. The Judge, Mr. Baron INl`Clelland, had refused
to permit an important question to be put to one of the wit-
nesses. Should he be told, after this, bythe Hon. Members
on the opposite side of the House that justice was administered
with an even hand. Law might be had in Ireland by the rich. It
was like the London Tavern, open to all who had money, but
according to the statement of a Noble and Learned Lord (Re-
desdale) there was one law for the poor anti another for the
rich. NiTith respect to the Association it was a farce to say that
they were as bad as tho Bridge-street gang. He knew how
to quiet these persons. The paper in which the words were
used, " by the hate you bear Orangemen," conveyed nothing
more than a natural expression of d►slike to an adverse party.
The Catholics were to be put down by the Orangemen. That

circumstance naturally occasioned expressions not uttered in
the smoothest strain. An Hon. Member in that House had said

that night, if Ire was on his death-bed he should wish the Ca-
tholics to succeed. That was a strong expression. A Right
Honourable Gentleman had said he loved his connections, but
if the independence of his country was in question, he would
fling away connections and hug his country to his bosom. This
was said by an honest Irishman, but it was too strong. The
Hon. Gentleman was shewing his independence, but were he
to follow up his threat he would be a rebel. These things
proved that words were dropped in debate which could not be
justified. Mr. Brougham then adverted to the Rent, and
contended that the Catholic Association in raising money
had only followed the example of the British !Methodists,
He produced a book containing minutes of proceeding in that
Society, and it appeared that they
.had a Secretary for a Com-
mittee of Privileges.—(A laugh.) —The Catholic Association
did nothing equal to this. What was right in England, was
right in Ireland. Having gone through all the charges against
the Catholic Association, he adverted to the conduct of the
Priests. He considered the Clergy the means of preserving
the peace. Before he sat down he wished to say a few words
on Catholic Emancipation. The Right Hon. Secretary had
defended himself on the charge of sitting in a divided Cabinet.
He could not; however, avoid feeling that the Right Hon.
Gentleman might have been the means of bringing on the ques-
tion. The charge he brought against the Right Honourable
Secretary was this. Notwithstanding the service be might have
done the Catholics, he had injured them by raising the cry of
No Popery.. Thank God ! said the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman the attempt has failed. Amongst all the great
things he hail studied under his great master, Mr. Pitt (of
whom Mr. Windham wittily said, he believed he could speak a
King's speech offhand), he had acquired the art of using the
Catholic Question to his advantage. The Right Honourable
Secretary, with respect to the Catholics, might be compared to
Sir Ben jainin Backbite, who said—" I like such a person, but
I cannot get any other to agree with me in liking him."—
(A laugh.)e—The Right Hon. Gentleman could not get the
Whigs to aeree with him in regard for the Catholics. In 1007,
when the Whigs were turned out on the cry of No Popery,"
London and Westminster took no share in that cry. In York-
shire the Catholics were not opposed. The people of Eng-
land did not join in the cry--;and that proved that they were
not hostile to the Roman Catholic Claims. In some cases of
popular feeling the government had paid but little regard to
existing circumstances. In the prosecution against the Queen
no attention was paid to public feeling. The Government
never paused one instant in that disgusting course. Subser-
viency and baseness upon that occasion were remarkable.—
The Members of a Russian Cabinet, that of a Ferdinand the
Seventh, or the slaves of Algiers with the bow-string twanging
in their, ears, never were more devoted. They disregarded
the public voice, and promoted an odious prosecution. If he
wanted any argument in favour of the Catholic Claims he found
it in the speech of the Attorney-General, for. Ireland, who said
he supported the Bill, because the Catholic Question was not
ceded.
Mr. PLUNKETT explained. He did not say granting the
Catholic Question would remove the necessity for the
Mr. BROUGHAM concluded by recommending the people
of Ireland to persevere in their endeavours for redress of griev-
ances, avoiding a breach of the law, and they would ultimately
obtain their object.
Amidst loud cries of " Question," Mr. BUTTERWORTH
rose to address the House for the purpose, as well as we could
gather his meaning in the noise which prevailed, of contradict-
ing some of the statements of Mr. Brougham respecting the Me-
thodist Conference.—(Loud laughter and coughing, and cries of
" Question," and " Go on," effectually prevented any part of
the Hon. Member's speech from being beard in the gallery.—
Some minutes were consumed in this manner, during which
the Hon. Member still kept his place ; at length, during
one of the causes, we ascertained that he was reading a state-
ment that some Protestants in Ireland had suffered_ great lossts
of business in consequence of their having refused to subscribe
to the Catholic rent. Cries of " Name," and " Place," were
heard, when the Hon. Member said the place he alluded to was
in the county of Kilkenny ; he was then asked te‘ wattle the
exact place in the county, but this he begged to be excused froth
doing. After some further ineffectual attempts to proceed, lie
Sat down.)
Mr. GOULBURN then rose to reply. Ile had been.charged
with having made a false statement respecting two transactions'
which he had alluded to in his speech. He mentioned them, to
show the ground upon which he disapproved of the principle of
the Catholic Association, which, contrary to the old maxim of
' English jurisprudence, presumed 'people's guilt before they
were tried. He was, however, charged with having misrepre-
sented one of these, because he had not stated that Mr. Black-
burn, the Judge before whom that trial was had, had compli-
mented Mr. O'Gorman for his conduct in the prosecution. He
had said nothing against Mr. O'Gorman ; and his conduct,
whatever it had been, did not alter the proceeding against which
he bad objected.
Sir J. M CKINTOSH said he complained only of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's having concealed that fact.
Mr. GOULBURN resumed. The Hon_ and Learned Gen-
tleman, thought it was a fact unnecessary to be stated, that the
Counsel for the prosecution had conducted himself well.—
(Hear !)—The House should, however. hear Mr. Blackburn's
report of that trial. He said—" A trial of unusual interest has
been held before me, in which a soldier was charged with hav-
ing administered illegal oaths. It lasted seven hours, anti
at the conclusion of it the man was acquitted by the unanimous
verdjct of 43 Magistrates who were present.—(Hear, hear !)
I regret to say that the evidence for the prosecution appeared
to be a foul conspiracy, to accuse and criminate the soldier,
and that the most abominable means were resorted to for effect-
ing the object of the conspiracy."—(Cheers.)—lf any gentle-
man had before this supposed that he (Mr. Goulburn) had
given any colour to this case, he asked them now to acqUit him,
on the evidence of Mr. Blackburn's report.--(Hear, hear !)
With respect to the other case alluded to by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Winchelsea, he did not know from what
source it was that the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman obtained
his information. He asserted that the Counsel had not been
allowed to put a question to a witness, in consequence of which
the prisoners was acquitted.
Mr. BROUGHAM said he had it from the leading Counsel
on that prosecution, who was himself a Protestant.
Mr. GOULBURN said it was impossible to answer such
assertions ofd hand ; but he doubted the fact altogether—first,
on account of the well-known character of the Judge ; and se-
condly, because there had been no notice taken of it—no allusion
to it; even in any proceedings of the Catholic Association,
although six months had now elapsed since the trial. He would
not detain the House any longer, nor would he have said so
much at that hour, but ror the purpose •of removing the Un-
founded imputation which had been cast upon bim.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that he was present at the
trial of the soldier, and could state that there was no division
of sentiment amongst the Magistrates as to the innocence of the
party.
The House then divided—the numbers were—
For the Motion - - -
278
Against it - 123
Majority - - ----155
The Billfeils then brought in, and read a first time.
After a short conversation between Mr. BROUGHAM and
Mr. PEEL, the second reading of the Bill was fixed for
Monday.
Mr. BROUGHAM postponed hie motion for a call of the
House to Monday.
The House adjourned at FOUR O'CLOCK this morning.

KING'S BENCH.—Yesterday an action was tried
REYNOLDS V. WELSH : the former an engraver,
the latter a musical composer. The ground of the
action was as follows :—lt was stated for the
plaintiff that he was to have the engraving of a
Portrait of KLAN, the Actor, painted by Mr.
CLINT, if the plaintiff could induce the Actor to
sit. Ile did so, but when the Picture was finish-
ed the defendant disavowed having given more
than a conditional promise, that if the Picture
should be engraved at all, the plaintiff should be
employed. The Jury, after the examination of
several witnesses, found for the plaintiff.—Da-
mages, 150 guineas.

A Paris Paper states, that there is more ver-
dure in a young chesnut tree in the Tuileries at
present, than is usually the case in spring. At
Leignitz, several apple trees are in full blow.