The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-13 00:00:00

only brought discredit upon the teachers of the sublime
principles of Christianity.
Colonel CONOLLY knew of many clergymen who
were labouring under the most serious privations ; indeed
so much so that several were compelled to borrow money,
without having any very immediate prospect of its re-pay-
ment. In many cases he knew that clergymen were de-
prived of their tithes, and such was the system of organi-
zation to prevent their payment, that even those who were
willing and able to do so would not be permitted sinless at
the risk of their lives.—(Hear, hear.) In Kilkenny and
a part of the Queen's County he knew this system pre-
vailed, and he now spoke from his own knowledge.
Lord DUNCANNON could not admit that there was
any organised resistance in the county of Kilkenny against
the payment of tithes. One lamentable murder of a tithe
proctor in the service of Dr. Butler bad taken place, and,
much to the credit of the surrounding inhabitants, a sub-
scription was entered into to discover and punish such an
offender. But the truth was, that the Tithe Composition
Act, having come too late, did not lead to any practical
benefit for the church or the tithe payers.
Mr. GOULBURN said that the averages upon which
the amount of commutation was founded took place every
seven years. It was at a fixed rate, as the Bill itself would
prove. As soon as lie was convinced of the neeessiry of
the measure, it was not delayed beyond the time necessary
for going through the ordinary forms of the House.
Mr. S. RICE said that however the Tithe Composi-
tion Act might have been intended to confer a benefit
upon Ireland, it was yet an very reluctantly granted that it
failed in its effect. The wishes of Ireland were scoffed at
by the very gentlemen who subsequently found it neces-
sary to pats it.—(Hear.) This delay of the necessary re-
form had produced all the difficulties of which so much
complaint had now been made.—(Hear.)
Lord INGESTRIE, in moving that the petition of the
Clergymen of the county of Wexford be printed, had not
complained of any organized system to resist the payment
of tithes. All he said was, diet they were very reluctantly
paid to the Clergymen of the Established Church.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the fact was incontrovertible
that the Bishop of Derry had possession of ninety thou-
sand acres of land. The affray at Newtownbarry. should
have excited sympathy rather tiein be treated as it had
been on this occasion.

Mr. GOULBURN dcnie.l that he had improperly re-
isted bringing forward the Tithe Commutation Act. The
fact was, that the Irish Members wished for delay upon
the 19th of June, being 14te in the Session, and in acceding
to their wishes he could not he considered as denying the

necessity of some proper commutation of tithes. He
neither scoffed nor sneered at such a proposition ; and a
reference to the spe*th which he had then made would
prove satisfactorily to the House that he had acted pre-

cisely as be had stated.
Dlr. S. RICE said that previous to Mr. Daly's motion
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had opposed
it, although in the subs* quent session be had agreed to it.
The Church felt a great disinclination to agree to the mea-
sure when brought in, and he still considered that a mea-
sure of tardy justice could not produce the benefits to which
it would otherwise have been entitled.
After a few words from 'Mc. GottLaureN tl c petiticn
was ordered to be printed.
PROVISION FOR THE QUEEN.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR. of the ExcliKQuE
the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole
House to take into consideration his Majesty's gracious
Message to make suitable provision for her Majesty the
Queen. He did not feel it necessary upon this occasion
to add a word to what he had before stated upon this sub-
ject. The dignified and amiable character of the Illus-
trious Personage for whom suitable provision was to he made
was known to the House and the country—her character
and conduct required no eulogy—( Hear, hear)—and his
proposition, therefore, would now be, as it hail been in the
last Parliament, that her Majesty, in case of surviving her
Sovereign and her husband, should be allowed to receive
100,0001. a year, and be entitled to the pcsse•sion
of
Busby Park and lands for a country, and Marlborough
House, or some other, for a suitable town residence.
Sir R. INGLIS thought that this subjyet would require
the further consideration of the Noble Lord.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had on
several occasions explained Low it was that the omissions
alluded to had taken place ; and he could now only repeat,
that the House and the country should feel deeply in-
debted to our gracious Sovereign for not wishing to burden
the country to a greater extent than was absolutely neces-
sary for the comfort and dignity of himself and his illus-
trious consort.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. C. PELHAM made some observations, which were
totally inaudible in the gallery.
. The resolution was then agreed to, and the report or-
dered to be received to-morrow.
REFORM.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved the reading of the order o
the day for the House to go into a Committee on the
English Reform Bill.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Lord MAITLAND rose to move, as an amendment,
that the petitioners of the borough of Appleby be heard at
the bar by Counsel, &c., for the purpose of sho S ing that
it was unjust to include that borough in Schedule A. In
the census of 1911 the population of the borough of Ap-
pleby was stated to be, for the parish of St. Michael
1,100, and for the parish of St. Lawrence 1,060 ; making
together a population of 2,160 ; but in the census of
1821, which was the standard adopted by the Government,
the parish of St. Lawrence was altogether omitted, and
the population of Appleby stated to consist of 1,341, which
was, in fact, only the population of St. Michael; and in
consequence of this omission the borough had been in-
serted in Schedule A, when the real truth was that the
population of the two parishes amounted to 2,616.-
0-fear, hear.) He would only se,y further, with respect
to the general measure, that he bad been extremely anx-
ious to give his support to the present Government, but
the proposed measure appeared to him to be so subversive
of the Constitution that he found it to be impossible to
vote for it.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord concluded be
moving " That Counsel be heard at the bar of the House
in support of the petition."
Colonel CONOLLY seconded the amendment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the Noble Lord
had not made out a sufficient case for the calling in of
Counsel, as the Bill was not one of pains and penalties.—
(Continued cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition,
answered by cheers from the other side.) Ile did not see
on what ground they were to call Counsel to the bar to
snake a statement as to whether the borough of Appleby
thought it expedient to correct general abuses, or to de-
prive particular places of their franchise.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lord said that the borough of Appleby was not
correctly represented in the population returns; but he
(Lord J. Russell) thought that that was a fact in which
the Noble Lord, and the other Member for Appleby,
would have an opportunity of stating their opinion when
in Committee. It was then they ought to show (if they
could, to the satisfaction of the Ilouse) that Appleby
ought not to be included in Schedule A—(Hear, hear)—
but he could not think that, on this general Bill, it was
at all necessary to open their doors to Counsel—(Cheers)
—and, if unnecessary, he could not see why—once
having admitted Counsel for Appleby—they were to re-
fuse to admit the Counsel for any other borough that
might be supposed to be interested in the clauses of the
Bill. On these grounds he must give his decided oppo-
sition to the amendment.
Sir R. PEEL trusted that the House, in taking care to
guard against any dangerous precedent, would fully con-
sider what it was that the petioners requested. The Noble
Lord had said, that what they had to decide was—whe-
ther they should proceed on the preamble laid down in the
Bill. But that was not the question raised in the petition.
(Hear, bear.) The petition recognised the principle of
the Reform Bill ; but it urged that, admitting that the
principle was correct, they could show that it did not
apply to them.—(Cheers.) And would any majority of
that House, however powerful it might be, refuse those
parties an opportunity of showing this?—(Cheers.) Such
a thing could not be proved without details ; it must be
made out by evidence; and the allegations of Members
interestedii in the fact could not, be received in such a case.
Ile therefore contended, that if the House of Commons re-
fused the petitioners his opportunity,it would be esta-
blishing a precedent most d- g (ellee
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL-..71t impossible".) not
to see that, under the mask of a petitionit from a particular
borough— (Immense cheering)— intendedfh to make
an attempt to impede the further progress
The Right Hong ("3B:iv-to:nee
e Bill.
(Renewed cheers.)
t said that
the petitioners admitted the principle. Bill—they
were much obliged to the petitioners—(Loud
laughter)—
as if the Bill was to stop till Appleby and every eort).her
borough admitted its principle.—(Continued cheering.)
What had this to do with the question? Once establish
the precedent, and then they would have counsel from
other borough.; that did not admit the principle, disputing,
perhaps, whether a poiinlation under two thousand
was the right standard for schedule A, and entering into
a legislative discussion with the House as to what prin-
ciple of Reform ought to be adopted.—(Cheers.) Allow
him, however, to say that was neither the province of
If the
borough nor the duty of the House of Commons_
hie
borough of Appleby was admitted, would. not every ot e)
r
borough be tempted to ask the same thing.--(Cheers.
As he understood the matter, of course every borough
would be able to make out tome sort ofa cwe, fur the pur-