The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-23 00:00:00

JUSTICES OF THE PEACE IN IRELAND.

Sir H. PARNELL rose to subritit another motion, of which
he had given notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill to e-
.gulate the office of Justice'of Peace in Ireland. He did not‘:re.
tend to enter on this occasion into any detail as to the conduct
of the Magistracy of that country, but he thought that sotne
measure was necessary to follow up and enforce the excellent
regulations -respecting the Magistrates which had been intro-
duced by the Marquis Wellesley. One of the great evils which
that Noble Lord had tried to remedy was, that of Magistrates
acting in their private houses, instead of holding Courts of
Petty Sessions,- a practice front which the most injurious come!.
quences had proceeded. Independently of thisehe thought it
necessary that the number of Magistrates should be restricted,
so 'as to get rid of many at present in the commission who were
unfit for that situation. In the propriety or the regulatio:'s
which had already taken place, he entirely concurred ; but. he
thought they had not gone far enough. • It was, he knew, Ob-
jected, that if all who were unfit were removed, there would not
be enough to do the business of the country ; but if the objec-
tion had any weight, the way in which the evil. might be reme-
died was not by appointing persons wholly unfit for the duties
of the office. He won't! not state to the House the extent of ge
regulations which 'might he introduced. He was anxious that
the leave for bringing in- the Bill might be a sort of pledge that
further should be done on this subject ; but what
the nature of the precise remedy should be, he would leave. in
the hands of the Committee appointed to bring in the Bill, as«
tisfied that they would suggest such remedies as would fairly
'meet the circumstances of the case. lie thought the oies,
ought to go farther than the lash Government had done,' and
that some new principle should be laid down in the appoint.
ment of Irish Magistrates. The Honourable Baronet con-
eluded by moving for leave to bring in the Pill.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he would not oppose the motion,
but he begged that his asSent on this occasion might not be
considered. as a pledge to support the measure when introduced.
Indeed, there were some clauses in the intended Bill, to whiell
(if report spake truth of them) be could not give his assenteas
he did not think they would be for the benefit of that countsy.
This was a subject which he could assure the House had been
under the consideration of the Irish Government. Persons
bad been sent into the different counties with insUucticaet to
awake inquiries on this subject: Their reports had been sub-
mitted to the judges of the land, and the reason why no mea-
sure had been introduced upon them was, that it was-not con-
sidered expedient at the present time. But he could assure the
House, that where soy cases had occurred which called for the
interference of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he had dis-
charged the difficult and invidious task in a manner likely, to
be highlybenefietal to the interests of justice.
Sir J. NEWPORT begged to suggest in the proposed Bill
the substitution of Lieutenants and Deputy-lieutetants, 'instead
of the Governor's and Sub-governors of counties in Ireland.. Ile
wished to see the plan :.imilated to that of England, where
the Lords Lieutenants of. Counties were anSwerable to the flonie
Office. In Ireland the power was subdivided among a varikty,
of hands without having any relrular responsibility.
• After a few word in support of the-Bill fruria Member tinder
the gallery, whose name we•did not hear.
Mr. S. RlCE'said, if by this bill it was intended to intro-
duce paid officers among the Magistracy, he should deprecate
it as having a most injurious tendency. •4'
Mr. GRATTAN was sorry the lion. Baronet (Sir H. Fur-
nell) had not been more explicit with respect to the present and
the former measure, as they were of very considerable imphrt-
ance. As far as he understood the present bill calculated' to
produce a regular attendance at petty sessions, he would g.iv, it
his support.
Mr. R. S. CAREW bore testimony to the excellent conduct
of the Magistrates of the county which he represented (Wex-
-lordshire).
After a few words in explanation from Sir H. PARNEL,L.
Mr. L. FOSTER did not (as we understood him) ixiiich
admire the practice of introducing specific Measures into 'the
house, upon which a Committee up stairs was sitting, "and
upon which it had not yet reported. With respect to the elThe:
of the proposed bill, he thought that if it sanctioned the intio•
duction of a paid officer as an assisrant to the Magistrates at
petty sessions, that officer not being a Magistrate, it, wouid
have a most injurious effect.
Lord MILTON expressed his surprise that any Member
should object to the introduction of a particular measurtrivith
respect to Ireland, because there was a Committee on the' gene-
ral state of that country sitting up stairs. Such a doctrine would
place the whole government of Ireland in the power of the'Com-
mittee for the time being. Ile thought. if the Bill were proVM
to be necessary, it should be judged with reference to its own
merits, and not to the labours of a Committee up stairs.
After a few words front Captain O'Gnmar, who Prais'ed e. „th
zeal and activity of the Magistrates of Limerick, the question
was put, and leave given to bring in the Bill.
PUBLIC SEWERS. N -

On the motion of Sir R._ HERON, leave was given to bring in
a Bill to amend the law relating to Public Sewers. ', • ,
UNLAWFUL SOCIETIES (IRELAND) BILL..
Mr. II l 'SKISSON moved the Order of the Day fur .th,:.
commitment of this Bill.
..•
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. lIV ME rose for the purpo,4e of subinittii4 a resolution
by way of it!struction to' the Committee. Ire had from tht
first introduction of this measure felt that it was unjust,tp-
wards the Association against which it was directed, and crud
to the great body of the people of Ireland. One of the evils
by which that unhappy country was afflicted was the practice
of introducing Bills on every occasion. They had Bills on all
sides of the House to patch sonic part of a bad system, ,in-
stead of adopting a general measure which would go at once to
the root of the evils. The present was one of those iDatchirg
Bills. No one had ever attempted to say that it Would..reinOY
the present system in Ireland. It was introduced witliquA #::,-Y_
evidence of its necessity. The only evidence given emi_.'.`,
verbal statements of one or two Members at one side,ryfiii7
were most flatly denied and contradicted in every. Part.,,PtY other-
nourable Members on the other. it was stated;rn
oarmernYdand.
things, that this Association had caused great - it must hive
He denied the fact. If any alarm was at all felt,
aosfcenclincecy
iiiict
been by the small faction who had so longo.thiey
that country, and the undisturbed
power. The representations made by m°ndiOcates of thi 4ill,
desiption. One"party
in its favour, were of a verycontraarY
said that the proceedings of the Cwth_ °lie' Association had. 4.is_
Curbed the tranquillity of Ireland, whilst
itshte'rurbaissneeret.7l 41i la e
3 :12tatnhde
do
Ireland was never in a state of .
h Bill to reach its present stage ;
House ought to have inquired which of these rePrepentations
was correct before it allowed . ~.
but had. determined to i
/ lind by adding another severe.faw to
hut as it had not made such inquiry, but . . .. -•., • n-
crease the irritation of ..re if the Bill must:
its penal code, he s. .
as'equal in its operataon as ,Wi
' ' houta feel it. his duty, . .
poSs let
into law, to render It
ive the Bill his mOit;strenflous a4i •
jle knew that in all Orobabilit
. apposi-
tion should,. however,
org it.
tion in evrY-Btagne,la be fruitless; but it would be a jet? 4NOY.
04,-_on would
such
made it, and to have done all'itt his
lation tO hilrn to,
• '
~

.powev to resist so partial and tyrannical a measure. 'He con-
' ieesed that, if he were a Catholic, it would be a mere matter
otcalculation with him whether he should assert his rights as a
man, and a patriot, or run the risk of being hanged as a rebel.
• war a traitor.—(llear ! and law titer.
t h hter.)—Our ancestors had
w atibed for an opportunity
to strike ebl ow which gave them
freedom; and he repeated that if he were a Catholic, he should
now follow their example. —( Hear l)—By denying
not°-
to thee Cath
h'eaof Ireland their just claims, which were refused
from any fear of their religious sentiments, but from ftrruomsraanfmed;remle(t
they should obtain a portion of those e
himent which were at present monopolizeesdo by the d. ominpt
faction in that country, the people of England were incuning
the risk of losing that fine island altogether. They had been
told by the Attorney-General for Ireland,
he
dreth:dtedfutrhtheeerfideeontscesoi
" guns were not made to the Catholics,
foreign aggression upon that country ; why, then, should they
hesitate to make the Catholics their friends, and so place Ireland
oot of the reach of danger?—(Hear !)--Irishmen were treated
as men in every country but Ireland; but there, he was sorry
. say it, they were treated as brutes.-(Hear!)—Why should
Varliaraent continue such a system, when by getting rid of it,
- t would not only attach a gallant nation to its side, but would
who rid England of an annual expence of 4,000,000/., which
.was now' incurred to keep it in subjection ?—( Hear !)--The
Honourable Member then proceeded to point out the differ-
enee between the Orange and the Catholic Associations, and
to contend that if the Government had wished to act fairly
between them, it would have dismissed from its service all
its -enzployes who were Members of Orange lodges. The
Orange lodges were decidedly illegal ; whereas the Catholic
Association was proved to be legal by. the necessity of hav-
ing this bill to put it down. Considering the insulting man-
ner in7which the former petitions of the Catholics had been
dismissed, Jie thought that they had adopted a quiet and
constitutional mode of obtaining a redress of grievances in form-
ing such an association.—(Hear !)—So far from objecting to it,
he considered it a laudable aesociatipn, in perfect consistence with
the principles and spirit of the ConstitutiOnaleoud cries of
" Hear !" from the Ministerial heoches.)-allelieving, there-
fore, that this association had been mostly, vilified, and seeing
that the Bill, which was intended to put it down, was shamefully
partial in its operation, lie intended to submit a motion to the'
house, " that it be an instructioa to the Committee to re..
ceive a clause, providing that any person now holding,
or who might hereafter hold, office nnder the Crown in Ire-
land, should take an oath that he does not now belongnand
that he will not hereafterhelong, to any association declared to
be illegal by this Act. He could not see upon what grounds
such a motion could be resisted, and he was sure that there was
one very powerful reason by which it was recommended. That
reason was, that nothingcould better allay the irritation such a
measure would occasion than the knowledge that it put down
other associations which had hitherto triumphed over the law
and eluded all its regulations. The Hon. Member then con-
eluded by handing his motion to the Speaker.
The SPEAKER told the lion. Member that.his motion in its
present state was unnecessary. Without any instruction the
Committee could take into their consideration such a clause as
the lion. Member had mentioned.
Mr. HUME stated, that his object was to place upon the jour-
nals his resolution, and that if his present mode of doing it was
objectionable in. point of form, he would do it in any mode that
the Speaker would suggest to him.
A discussion of sonic length took place between the Honour-
able Member and the SPEAKER as to the mode of putting the
question, which ended in an alteration of the words of the mo-
tion without altering their substantive effect.
Mr. GOCI.BURN resisted the motion, not only because it
was not calculated to effect the object of the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen, but also because it was extremely objectionable
upon principle. The object of it was to call upon every
officer to take an oath, not merely that he was not guilty of a
particular offence, but also that he would not, at any future
time, be guilty of it. If this were a fit principle to proceed
upon, why did the Hon. Member call for such a declaration
with regard to a minor offence, punishable only by tine and im-
prisonment, and neglect it with regard to greater offences, for
which severer punishments were inflicted ? Was it just, he
would ask, to call upon an individual to take an oath, when, by
refusing to take it, he gave indirect evidence that he was a
member of a society denounced as illegal by an Act of Parlia-
ment ? He knew of no case in which such a test had ever been
required from public officers, and he did not see any reason
wiry it should be demanded from them in the present case.
—(itter. hear-!)—The object of the Hon. Member's motion
would not be answered even by the success of such a clause
as he had proposed. If any Orangeman was at present in the
employment of the Irish Government, it was because the con-
stitution of those lodges had been so completely altered as not
to transgress the existing laws. should any servant of the
Government be discovered to be a member of an illegal Orange
ledge, he would not only be dismissed from his situation, but
would also be immediately handed over to the law to suffer the
puni..hmeitt which it affixed to the offence he had committed.
f In. these reasons the Right lion. Gentleman said that he
should oppose the motion.
Mr. G. LA MB observed, that no man was bound to take
effeee against his wilL; and argued, that as every man had to
take some test oaths before he entered upon office, he saw no
reason why the test recommended zy his Hon. Friend the
ember for Aberdeen should not be added to those which were
already in existence. He defended the Catholic Association
f: en the attacks which had been made upon it, and said that
he could not find any thing in the language used by its mem-
beet half so violent as the language which had been used re-
gardiug it by several Members of that House. He concluded
by saying, that if they wished to give a triumph to neither of
the two parties into which Ireland was divided, and' to hold the
balance impartially between them, they would not send this
ohnonioue Bill to Ireland, without adding to it the clause re-
' commeetled by his lion. Friend.
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON said, he rose to repeat the same
sentiment, and, if possible, the same language he had used in
that House on a former occasion. lie would not be, nor would
the Hon. Members around him be, shamed out of their feel-
ings of dislike towards this abominable measure—a measure
was actually calculated (the lion. Gentlemen might smile or
f,-,>wn as they pleased)—actually calculated to rouse the people
of Ireland, if not to acts of outrage, to active exertions to put
down such men as those who had advised the King to make such
a aratement as that contained in the Speech from the Throne—
those Royal Advisers who had proposed a measure calculated to
raise the whole population of Ireland in rebellion against it. He
did not know' how they dared to propose it, and to propose it
without any grounds—for the false statements contained in the
speeches of the Members on the other side of the House had been
aely replied to and confuted. They did not know the men with
whom they had to contend; and the Rt. Hon. Gent. opposite, now
lie lie had found out this secret, was determined to remain silent
lest lie should be again put to shame by the Hon. Member (Mr.
Brougham) who sat beneath him (Mr. IL) The arguments of
those Gentlemen would be again refuted if they again ventured
to state their arguments in support of this abominable measure.
They were anxious, however, to hurry the matter into a Com-
mittee, depending on a majority of the House. He (Mr. H.)
did' not wish to speak of majorities of that House In terms of
disrespect; hut he knew what they had hitherto done in Eng-
land and in Ireland. They had hurried on England almost to
its ruin, by creating a taxation from which England could
ne.ver be relieved; atria in Ireland they had driven the Irish
to rebellion. He would not be brow-beaten or shamed from
his duty, but he would speak as an Irishman, and as one
who was experienced in the things of which he spoke. He
had seen his country driven to rebellion by oppression ; and
lie would say, even if they were the last words he should
ever utter, that if ever there were a justifiable rebellion, the
rebellion of 1793 was so. He had before stated his convic-
tion that every person who suffered in that rebellion was a
- martyr, and filet the Government who drove the people of Ire-
land to that rebellion, ought to have suffered as traitors for so
doing. When that rebellion broke out, he (Mr. Hutchinson)
joined heartily in putting it down; but at the same time he re-
probated the cruel spirit of the Government, that had made one
hundred rebels when there would have been only one. When the
French landed in Ireland, for the purpose of introducing their
system into that country, he was equally ready to oppose them.
Ile believed the Right lion. Gent. (Mr. Gout burn) was not only
risking the peace of Ireland, but was doing all he could to
cause a rebellion in Ireland. Yet Ireland, we were told, was still
gcng min prosperity, for so the country was informed by the
speech of his !Vlajesty, while his Majesty's Ministers could come
forward and 'oppose the feelings of the whole population of Ire-
land, in order to gratify a faction. To gratify them, they would
pet down this Association and insult a whole people. Ile would
beg of the Gentlemen opposite to pause before they proceeded
to far. From many accounts he lead received from Ireland,
he knew that there were rno:e to be apprehended there than
had long been, for never had any body so completely carried
with them the feelings of the people of Ireland as the Catholic
Association, and never was there greater confidence placed in
any
man than was placed in his friend Mr. O'Connell—he was
proud to call him his friend. The Government of Ireland had
never been so anxious to preserve the peace of the country as
- the Association had_been. So far from giving his vote that the
House should now go into a Committee on this Bill, it was
hie intention to move that it be considered in a Committee this
day six months. Hee did not think that any case had been
made out that would justify the House in going into a Com-
mittee. He begged pardon of the Honourable Members for
having said so much, but he begged pardon of his country, for
not having said much more. He could for' day and night
continue to advocate the 'cause, to support which he would Tea..
. dilivsaerifice his life.
--Mr. PLUNKETT begged to call back the attention of the
Howe to the question under consideration, and from which his
• Hon. Friend (Mr. Hutchinson) had so widely departed, in'
.. taking SO wide a range, as to have gone back even into the.

History of Ireland at some length. That Hon. Member con-
ceived that no case had been made out ; and there he (Mr. P.)
was satisfied to let the matter rest. He wished, however, to say
a few words relative the .indtion of the lion. Member for
Montrose ; and he would observe that he was anxious as that
Hon. Member, or any other person could be, to prevent the
admission of any member of any unlawful society into office
under Governmefit. He was,: however, perfectly satisfied that
the mode proposed by the Honourable Member was not one
calculated to produce the desired ends, or one that ought to
he resorted to. The mode proposed-was to administer an oath,
and the method was an unexampled one. The person to be
admitted into office must thus first swear that he is not a mem-
ber of any illegal society, and then he must swear so the law,
for he must know what the law on the subject is. He (Mr.
Plunkett) had never heard of compelling a party beforeonter-
mg into office to swear to a point of law. Again, a society be-
came illegal in consequence of the conduct of a portion of its
members, and the law provided that an individual should not
be answerable for that of which he had no knowledge. The
Hon. Member would then make a person swear to a point of
law, and a point of law of which he might not be cognizable.—
lie (Mr. Plunkett) had every confidence in his 'Majesty's 31i-
nisters, and he hoped and believed that they would not nomi-
nate any person to office who was a member of any illegal
society.

Mr. DENMAN felt some objection to his lion. Friend's
motion, because it went to impose a test upon coming into
office which was improper. lie thought, however, that it was
necessary to prove to the people of Ireland that this was an
impartial measure. It was necessary they should see the
Orangemen placed on the same footing as the Catholics. The
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman appeared to think a man
could not swear to an act of which he might not be cognizant.
That was a_ correct view of the question, and that objection
might be applied to the Bill. A man might be fined and im.
prisoned because he became a member of an illegal society,
whether he knew they acted illagally or not.—(A cry of No,
no !)-11e found certainly a qualification in that respect which
he had not before seen, but still he considered the Bill bad, and
if the House went into a Committee upon it, he should sup.-
port the motion of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. Sec.retary PEEL said, he would trespass but a few mo-
ments on the time of the House. It was quite clear that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Denman) had not taken the
trouble of reading this bill. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
objected to the second clause, and it was only on the suggestion
°tan Hon. Gentleman near him, that he read the third clause,
in which his objection was obviate ; and on reading which, he
admitteclthat his argument had no force. It was not too much
surely to ask the Learned Judge (Mr. Daman) to hear the de-
fence before be condemned the prisoner. His Right lion.
Friend (Mr. Plunkett) did not cast any blame on the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hutchinson for any thing that had fallen from
him. What his Right Hon. Friend objected to was, the discus-
sion of this measure again after the principle had been so often
debated. There was a distinct proposition before the )louse.,
and it would be consulting their time and convenience to con-
fine themselves to that. The subject of the Irish rebellion
might be an important one in itself, and very well worthy of
consideration, but that was not the time for entering into it.—
He should not have risen at all were it not for a few expressions
that fell from the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H.) If we
cannot, said the Ilonourable Gentleman, shame Ministers
from the measure, we will endeavour to terrify them from
it. He would tell that Honourable Gentleman that he (Mr.
Peel) would not be terrified or shamed from any thing
Iwhich his duty called upon him to perform. He might .be
mistaken, and those who differed from him had a right to
answer his arguments or arraign his motives; but no vehe-
mence of language should ever induce him to depart from that
course of conduct which duty to his sovereign and to the
country prescribed. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hutchinson)
talked of the corrupt majorities of the House of Commons, and
yet, in the very same breath, in the very sentence fbllowing, ex-
pressed his reliance on the wisdom and the liberality of a 'Bri-
tish House of Commons for removing the disabilities affecting
the Roman Catholics. With such impressions of the wisdom
and liberality of the House, how could the Honourable Gen-
tleman for a moment suppose that they could be in-
fluenced by corrupt motives to support such a Bill as this ?
It would be an insult to the House to attempt to defend
them against such a charge. With respect to the proposi-
tion immediately before them, it had been so ably opposed by
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Plunkett) that it was
unnecessary for him to enter into it. If agreed to it could
not have the effect expected from it. Suppose such a test were
required from any person connected with illegal societies, was
there not likelihood that the man who, knowing the state of the
law, could content himself with them, would not have much
difficulty in having recourse to perjury, sooner than not get into
office ? Supposing him to belong not to secret but to Orange
Societies, he (Mr. Peel) had no difficulty in saying that it would
be the duty of Government to remove him from his situation as
soon as the fact was ascertained.—(llear !)—lle opposed the
clause on principle, because he thought such tests objectionable.
It would not effect the object proposed. It would afford a pre-
cedent for so objectionable a mode of legislation, that he trusted
the good sense of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) Would
induce him to withdraw it.

Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON, in explanation, said, that he
had used the words " shame" and " tertify," as applied to
his Majesty's Ministers, in a Parliamentary sense only.--
(A laugh.)

Lord A LTHORP understood his Hon. Friend to imply by
the words in question nothing more than his sense of the danger
arising to the nation from the measure in question. He (Lord
Althorp) was also one who thought that measures of this kind
had always an evil tendency to produce bloodshed and confu-
sion ; but he did trust, in this case, that the good sense of
the Catholics themselves, and the influence of the Catholic As-
sociation, would obviate all fatal consequences of that sort, and
preserve the peace of the country.—(Hear !)—lt. had afforded
him great pleasure to-night, to hear from the Right lion. Secre-
tary of State (Mr. Peel), that con 4olatory pledge that no Orange-
man would be permitted to hold office. He did believe that
this single declaration from the Right Hon. Gentleman would
do more to put clown all illegal societies in Ireland than these
Bills or any other means whatever.—(Cheers.)—lt was on this
account that he (Lord Althorp) was glad that his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hume)- had submitted this proposition to the House ;
whether it was now likely to be attended with any effect or not
he did not know ; but the country was under obligations to him
for affording the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel)
an opportunity of making the very important declaration he
had made.
Sir R. WILSON defended his Honourable Friend the
Member for Cork. Having been referred -to with respect to
the rebellion in Ireland, he was prepared to say the rebel
who attempted with his feeble pike to defend his country, was
not so guilty as those who had driven him to desperation by
oppressive measures. His Honourable Friend did not sup-
pose he could terrify any English Gentleman, but had used the
word terrify in a political view. He might ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman, whether he was_prepared to withhold the Catholic
Question, and produce thereby a civil and religious war in Ire-
land ? This was a question which ought to terrify any man.—
(Hear, hear !)
Mr. 11. C. BUTLER (as we understood the Honourable
Gentleman's name to be) complained that the House,had that
night heard rebellion—the rebellion of Ireland in l7)B—deli-
berately advocated.—(Hear, hear !)—He strenuously opposed
the motion.pf the Member for Aberdeen.

Mr. HUME rose to reply. The House would permit him
to say a few words—(A loud cry of " No, no.")—The Hon.
Gentleman then signified that lie would divide the House.—
(" Question, question.")
The gallery was cleared, but no division took place, and the
clause was rejected.
On the question for the SPEAKER'S leaving the chair—the
gallery was again cleared, but no division took place.
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found the Bill corn.
mitted, and the blanks filled up • Mr. SPRING RICE at the
same time protesting that no modification of the Bill could ac-
cord with his view or that of his friends.
The House resumed; the report was ordered to be taken into
further consideration on Thursday night; and the Bill was or-
dered to be printed as amended.