The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-11 00:00:00

Caledonian Railway (Burchase or Lease of Wishaw
and Coltness Railway).
Shrewsbury and Chester Railway (for Branches to
the River Dee ; Agreement for Joint Station at Shrews-
bury ; Power to subscribe towards the Shrewsbury and
Hereford Railway).
York and North Midland Railway (Deviation and
Abandonment of Part of the authorised Lines of Rail-
way between Market Weighton and Beverley and Ceii-
munthorpe and Tadcaster).
York, Newcastle and Berwick Railway, and Maryport
and Carlisle Railway (Lease and Amalgamation).
York, Newcastle and Berwick Railway (Newcastle-
upon-Tyne and Carlisle Railway Lease and Arcaigaina-
tion).

PETITIONS.
Mr. E. DENISON presented a petition from the
Mahon UniGn in favour of superannuation allowances.
Admiral DUNDAS presented a petition from Wool-
wich in favour of the Clergy Relief Bill.
Mr. WILCOX presented a petition from Southampton
praying for the extension of the suffrage to all house-
holders.

Mr. OSBORNE presented a petition from Longford,
praying that no 'bora money might be giren to Irish
people until the resources of the Church in trelind were
appropriated to their proper uses ; also a petition from
Cheltenham, in favour of international arbitration; also
several petitions from officers connected with the poor-
law in certain districts in Middlesex, praying for super-
annuation allowance.

Lord HARRY VANE presented a petition from De.r-
fington, praying that measures might be taken to pre-
vent the importation of the produce of Cuba and Brazils
to this country.
Mr. COBDEN presented several petitions form York-
shire praying for the liberation of the Rev. Mr. Store,
and for the establishment of financial county board
Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition from Bath
praying for the liberation of Mr. Shore ; for the aboli-
tion of all ecclesiastical courts, and for the entire refor-
mation of the Established Church.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from Scotland
against the Scotch Registration Bill.
Mr. FULLER presented a petition from Eisex praying
for protection to agriculture.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER presented a petition from Lin-
coln in favour of sore measure to prevent trading in
seduction.

The Marquis of GRANBY presented a petition corn
plai dng of the crowded state of churchyards, and pray.
ing that some measures might be taken to prevent in.
torments in towns.

THORNELY complained of certain irregularities
connected with the practice of presenting petitions to
the House. As Chairman of Petitions, he knew that
petitions were presented to the House without one
signature being appended to them, and particularly re
ferred to a petition from the Archdele,-,nry of Dublin.
Sir R. INGLIS thought it was very desirable that the
public should know that there were many petitions
presented to the House, the greater number of names
attached to which were illegible.
Mr. AGLIO`TBY thought under the present system
there was no means of knowing the genuine signatures
from those that were signed by the authority of parties
whose names are appended to petitions.
Mr. HINDLEY asked from whence the petition came
which was the subject-matter of complaint?
Mr. THORNELY said it came from the Archeleaconry
of Dublin.

...M.... • . '
..
• existing law, the 3d of Gee. IV , which was found suf. Mare smith said ti .at our colonies had always been an ei!:,
ficient in 1832, was not sufficient now. But as pence to this count ry. Now he thought that we should
the Right Hoaeurable Gentleman (the Chancellor act towards them as ; kind parents acted towards their offh
of the Exchequer) d;cl not seem disposed to spring. When an 3 of them were old enough, prepares:
adopt that course, there were three otl-n,rs openlo him; for it, and desirau aof establishing in an independen
first, to prohibit the growth of chicory altogether in this positi, nin life, however anxious the arent ght tt)
country; sec end, to take off the custom's duty of 4d. which ret;:as them at horn e, he aided them to p
s might
in the woberld:
now operated to discourage the consumption of colonial ,irid, cn the other band, they cherished and support"'
coffee ; and, thirdly, to impose an excise duty upon the weakly ones. So it should be with our colonies
Bihish-grown chicory, equivalent to the custom's duty which were capable of becoming independent; no petty
upon coffee. The Hon. Gentl, man, after stating that, in jealousy should tit iduce us to oppose their becoming so,
his opinion, the later course was the most advisable one because they would be much more advantageous to us
to adept, concluded by moving the resolution which is in that capacity than they ever had been. If they
given at the commencement of his speech. would give the colonies a constant supply of young
Mr. BAILLIE seconded the resolution. persons educated in the unions, and give them
The CHANoELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said grants of land, a constant supply labour
he could not agree to the resolution, and as to what had would be secured ,to them. He did
not seeof the lice'
been said about the Treasury having a diepensing power Member for Berveicihshire present, who took an interest
to supersede the law, the power was given them by the in emigration, on b ehalf of a particular society formed
law itself, in order that they should exer- for the purpose of encouraging it. But the fault he
cis° a discretion, when they thought proper had to find with that and other societies was that
in matters connected with the revenue. It was ;hey asked too mu eh from the emigrants. The only
well known that in many parts of the Continent qualifications for ewe emigrant, in his opinicn, were an
chicory was used as a substitu'e for coffee, and in all empty mouth and all empty stomach.—(A laugh) One
C3Seli rnixEd with it. Ile himself had that very day an thing was certain, that oar colonies must give up the
interview with a gentleman engaged in the trade, who idea of maintairiding themselves as sugar inanufaes
assured him that a mixture of chicory was of great ad- turcrs. The cane could be grown in a greater number
vantage to the consumer, and promoted the use of coffee of places than was once believed—andin them sugar
to a very great degree. He had had a communication cultivation could on ly exist under protection. But if
with the Board of Excise on the subject, and their the labourers went out there and applied themselves
answer was, that if the plan of the Hon. Gentleman to the cultivation of the land, they would bet•
were adopted, it would be necessary to institute ter their own condition, and supply us with an abun'
a very expensive and inquisitorial survey into the con- dance of provisions- He believed it was impossible to
cerns of all the coffee dealers in England. That was a re,tore the bread tax again.—(Loud cheers.) He hal no
course he did not feel it his duty to pursue. It was not patience with those impostors who run about the coun-
done by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the try and promised the tenant-farmers that if they were
University of Cambridge, who preceded him (the Chan- restored to power they would give them back
celfor of the Exchequer) in the office he had then the protection.—(Hear, hear.) Ha had never taken any
honour to hold; it was not done by his Right Hon, part in the movernmit for the repeal of the corn-laws,
Friend the Member for Portsmouth, when he was Chau- because he saw, or at least thought he saw, the selfish-
cellor of the Exchequer; by Lord Monteagle, or the late ness of the landlord as well as the selfishness of the
Lord Althorp. As to the falling off in the consumption cottonocracy—(A laugh)—and, consequently never took
of coffee, no such thing had happened, for he found that any part with either of them. There was, however,
while in 1841 only fourteen millions of pounds were this difference between them—that, whereas the gout in
consumed, it had risen in 1848 to thirty millions. Under the toe was painful, the gout in the stomach was destruc-
all the circumstances of the case, and believing the pre- tine—(Laughter)—and, therefore, he deprecated all tax-
sent system was of great benefit, particularly to the ation on food.—(Hear.) The evil of monopoly wan
working classes of society, and that the alteration pro- that in point of fact, it took something out of every
posed would prove most inquisitorial, he should resist body's pocket, to put it into the pocket of the monopo-
the motion.
list Now, as he said before, it was the constant ten-
Sir J. TYRELL said that chicory was a most profit- dency of masters to combine against their workmen.--
able crop for the agriculturists to grow, for in his own (" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connor, and laughter.)
neighbourhood he knew a farmer who realised 141. to Labour was no match for capital; the capitalist could
15/. an acre by it. He was, therefore, most anxious that command any market he pleased, but the labourer
it should be understood no interference would take place could find no market but one—Meer, hear) —that
that might injure those who had been already so much the ground on which the Goveinment should alwaysy
injured by free trade measures. stretch out its hand to protect the labourer against capi-
Mr. URQUHART said is bat they wanted vvas, an en- tal:sts of every kind; in other words, they must by means
force merit of the existing law by the Government, which, of custom duties protect the home market.—(Protece
by their orders, was suspended. They had an admitted tionist cheers.) Ay, but he was not taking their view
case of decrease of revenue and infraction of the law. of the matters—(Laughter.) The benefit of the home
Mr. MACGREGOR said, that he knew from official market was, that it set in beneficial operation two capie
experience at the Board of Trade, that it was perfectly tale.— (Renewed Protectionist cheers.) Another point
impossible to prevent the sale of chicory, or any article he wood also submit to the Committee—namely, the
in a pulverised state. The only way to prevent it, was inexpediency of giving up productive taxes, which fell
to reduce the duties upon foreign and colonial coffees, upon the richer classes. Take the Post-office, for in-
so as to offer no great temptation to adulteration. stance, where was the utility of giving up the revenue it
Ceptein PHILLIP BENNET said a few words, which formerly yielded? The only parties who had benefited
were inaudible in the gallery, by it were the merchants end bankers. He would not
Mr. C. ANSTEY replisd. say one word against such reductions, if tale were
jSir CHARLES BURRELL said, it would be an in- overflown), with wealth; but looking at the state of the
ustice to the agricultural interest to impose a duty on country, Ice said that as it was improree is an individual
chicory. It was a complete contravention of the pullet- who was in difficulties to lavish his means, so it was
pies of free trade, equally improper in a Government to do so.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER seid that Ile was almost afraid to mention the word Ireland, lest
he only contemplated a duty on roasted chicory, if at all, it should give rise to innumerable eec
sphes, t
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House he could not ease it without nonce, because he believed
divided, when there appeared— that if it was properly treated a great reduction of the
For the motion
Against it
Majority
REDUC TION OF TAXATION. the military and by cow ts-mertial, and thus save the
Mr. H. DRUMMOND brought forward the motion list of judges, juries, and learned counsel, who cr u'd
of which he had given notice—" That this House do not even find men guilty who honestly said they were
resolve itself into a Committee, to consider the public guilty, asd whom everbody else believed to be so. Oa
expenditure and the existing sn stem of taxation, and hew the other head, let the Lord,-Lieutenants of counties
far both may be revised with a view to relieve the pees- and the owners of the soil be left to perform the duties
sure upon the industry of the country." Last year he which they did in Eneland, Wales, and Scotland, and
expressed his surprise that her Majesty's Ministers had withdraw a large portion of the military force, and in
not proposed any sufficient plan themselves, or if they this way effect a saving.—(Hear.) When all this was
could not, they might have at least moved for a Com- done, however, they would still have done but little to-
mittee of that House to aid them. At the close of the wards lightening the springs of irulu,try, if they did not
session he expressed his regret that they gave no intima- come to the charges upon the public debt.—(Elear, hear.)
tion of such a plan, and said that if they did not they It was all very well to speak of shifting the burdens
would compel some independent Member to devise a plan from one class of the community to others. Such reduc-
for them. He now undertook the titbit with the object tions might have a beneficial moral Effect, but its peal-
of drawing from Government some plain declaration, niary results would be temporary. But were they afraid
that the country might see what they had to ex- to look at the eight hundred millions of public debt, or
pest at their hands. His belief was that there the twenty-eight millions of annual interest?—(Hear,
never was a successful opposition to the rul hear.) That debt began at the same time as the miseries
ing powers in any country except when there of Fiance—it went on accumulating through the whole
was an oppression of the hireling. When that was of the reigns of the three Georges—perhaps it was a
the case rulers had taken from them that power which punishment fur throwing offour lawful King—(A laugh)
they had abused. The extravagant wars carried on by —till at last it had come to be a burden greater than any •
Louis XIV. and the waste of public money upon the people ever endured before. He knew that it was said
puerilities of the Palace of Versailles, caused those con- this burden could be lightened in two ways, by increas-
vulsions which broke out in France in the days of his ingrand
the capital and the productive power of the country;
gson. From that same period over taxation had but there was this fallacy in that position, that value and
gone on in this country till it would appear fabulous to increase of wealth did not go together; the farmer had
those who originally imposed the national debt. Now, in now to pay four sheep instead of one, ten fleeces instead
quiet times it was right to take up the question of reduc- of one, and the three loads of wheat instead of one, to pay
tion of the taxation of the country, to prevent the outbreaks the same amount of taxation that he did a few years ago.
and misery which invariably followed over-taxation. If The value of capital was diminished in order to pay the
they would be content that the present state of things taxes. All the Ministers who imposed these taxes and
should last during their official enistenee,with their hands contracted these debts said that unless something was
and feet bound in red tape, then another wave of that de- dune to reduce the burden in future, it must ulti-
luge of Democracy which had latterly overwhelmed every mately lead to the ruin of the country. One of the most
Government of Europe would sweep over them. lie common sayings of Mr. Pitt, when he was running up
did not say that any measure which ho could pro- debts, was that we should obtain indemnity for the past
pose could save them, but he did say, that if they and security for the future. Now ho admitted, with the
would be just and fear not, if they would be de- gentlemen of the Birmingham school, that the burden of
termined to relieve the poor, it might be, ueder God's the debt had been immensely increased by the Act of
blessing, a means to lengthen their tranquillity. But 1819; but at the same time he disagreed with them on
they must lay hold upon the question honestly. They some points, and especially as to their mode of measure
mutt not take up something to delude the people, for ing the depreciation of value. The great evil of the
that only occasioned reiterated mortification. They must public debt was that it locked up capital. There were
be honest in their measures. They must revise every only two ways of really benefiting the country. One
part of their taxable system.—(Hear, hear.) They must was to make new capital, the other to let free that
be prepared to part with many of their favourite asso- which already existed. By that means they would
ciations, with many of their prejudices and long che- enable the merchant and manufacturer to increase their
fished habits. The motion was to get into Committee enterprises and give additional employment. The question
to move certain resolutions. The language of that peti was, how this capital ' was to be liberated? Everybody
tion which had been laid on the table, was that all said something should be done, but when any one came
classes of productive industry were labouring under forward with a plan a host of objectors started up. It
pressure arising from excessive local and national taxa- might be asked where the money was to come from to
tion. He held it to be a principle that they ought to pay off the public debt? He knew of only two classes in
pay for the protection of property to the value of that the country, rich and poor; the latter could not pay, and
which was to be protected, and also in proportion he supposed the former must. He would ask, did they b
to the social condition of the people. Accord- ever mean to pay the debt?—(Hear.) They certainly
ing to a calculation which he had made on a former went on as if they never did. What he should propose
o casion, upon the supposition that there were 30,000,000 was to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer power to
of idiabitants in these countries, and estimating the buy up annuities as they were offered in the markets
number of families at 5,000,000, there was 1,000 000 of It would not require at once a very great sum to do that,
families in the greatest misery and distress. There was and he would raise the requisite funds partly by a tax
another million of families consuming twice as much— on real property and partl an equalization of the
another three times as much—a third million four times land tax, the proceeds fromwhich should be exclusively
as much, and a fourth million five times as much as all applied to this purpose. In this way they would pre-
the rest, Their taxation ought to proceed upon the vent a glut of capital in the market, and all feverish
principle of letting the lowest class go free altogether, speculation consequent upon it—the Government would
and laying on the whole of their taxation in the same have the operation under their own control, and they
way that the assessed taxes were laid on, making them would naturally take care never to throw more capital
mount up progressively, not that by any system the poor into the market than coed.' find profitable employment.
would altogether escape taxation, for they could not lay on He called upon all who took an interest in these
taxes in any way that would not indirectly questions to vote for going into Committee ; what-
press upon the labourer. They ought also to ever differences might exist between those who advo-
make men pay in proportion to their station in society. mated financial reform and those who supported the
It was of very little consequence to a labourer who sat views of tae then. Member for Buckinghamshire, they
upon the throne or occupied the upper places of society. were equally bound to support his
[notion. He asked all
He thought it was Mr. Macaulay who said that who elegised the title of statesmen to unite with him in
to a man who. could nut get his supper, it was no an inquiry into this subject, and he conjured the House
consolation to know that we could not go to war without to take up a subject which was mostdeeply and intimately
the consent of Parliament.—(A laugh.) These things connected with the contentment of the people, and the
might be of great importance to those who were in power, tranquillity of the couutry.—(Cheers ) The Hon, Mem-
or so placed that they might anticipate a. direct snare ber concluded by movinhis motien.
in its benefits; but to the vast mass of the people that hlr. URQUHART s coeded the motion.
mattered very, little. He did not agree with a statement The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op-
he had often heard, that the majority of the taxation posed the motion. If the Hon. Gentleman really sup-
had been intentionally made to bear upon the poorer posed that they should go into Committee on the mani-
classes, and to exempt the rich. The very contrary of fold subjects which he stated his intention of moving,
that had been proved by his Hon. Friend the Member they would have marked out not the work of an ordi-
for Buckinghamshire. But ho believed that as there nary Committee, but of two or three sessions. There
was always an indirect tendency on the part of masters was hardly any discussable subject that the Hon. Gen-
to combine against their men, so there was also an in- tleman did not mean to make the subject-matter of reso-
direct tendency on the part of Governments to make lutions. In the first place he proposed to substitute
taxation bear unequally.—(Hear.) In a certain sense, a new system of taxation. ght It mit
indeed, it was almost impossible to avoid this inequality, graduated property-tax for
aught he be a
House
If they took one pound from a man who had only knew to the contrary, for the
Honourable Gen-
-101., they in reality took more than when they took tlernan had left them in the dark wi regard either
10/. from 100/, 100/. from 1,000/. or 1,000/. from the principle or the details
of that system.--to(Hear.)
10,0001.; and, in order to counterbalance this natural Then the Hon. Gentleman, after ridiculing a motion of
and reainequality, there ought always to be a direct in- Lord Ashburton's respecting the mode of e-
tention on the part cot the Legislature to throw the direct ing the country, came to the conclusion that uitabl
it wouldtax be
burden of taxation on the highest classes. The feeling impossible to impose any taxation which did not press
of the working classes was, that this could never be done on the millions. The next proposition which the Hon.
until they themselves returned Members to Parliament; Gentleman announced his intention of moving, was the
but if the House agreed to this Committee, with the reduction of all salaries of public officers to the scale of
view of applying a practical measure, it would render 1794, previous to the war. The Hon. Member for Mon-
that reason at least nugatory. Another resolution he trose
had given notice ea similar motion; but he (the
should propose, if they went into Committee, would be Chancellor of the Exchequer) should certainly resist
to reduce the salaries of civil officers, in order that the it.—(Hear, hear.) He would them why,—Because
might be enabled to reduce the amount of taxation levied such an alteration would be atell most extravagant thing
on stamps and assessed taxes. The whole tendency of to do.—(Laughter.) Honourable Gentleman laughed.
their recent legislation was to reduce prices to the con- Nevertheless his statement was quite true. If such a
tinentel level. He did not believe that could be helped. resolution were carried, the salary of his Right Hon-
-(lleat-, hear.) Even independent of legislation, ho Friend the Secretary of State would be increased
did not believe that it was possible, in a time of peace, to from 5,000/. to 6,000/. per annum, and of the President
keep up prices beyond the general level; but that of the Council from 2,000/ to 4,000/. per annum,
being the case, the tax-payers must have continental so that instead of a decrease being effected, there would
prices
when also ;
179 they must have back the prices of be an increase in those particular departments. They
4, the whole of these salaries were talked of the resolution as an economical measure, but
raised on the express plea of the enhanced price of coin- it was not an economical proposal to return to the scale
modities, when, to his own knowledge, 50/. was paid for fixed in 1794. The Hon. Gentleman proposed to put
what could now be purchased for 101.—(Ilear.) They an end to all civil services connected with the military
would have free trade in salaries—(Cheers.) He heard department, but that subject was already fully dis-
it sometimes said, oftener out of doors than in that cussed when the various estimates were considered.
House, that there seemed as if there existed an inten- The Hon. Gentleman held out the 4ipeotation that he
tion to fine officials, and treat them as persons who had would spare us the trouble of retailing our colonies.
committed a misdemeanour. Now he took no pleasure Now, on the subject of governing oar colonial pas'
in proposing the reduction of any man's income, or sessions, no less than three other notice's of motion bad
any man's comforts. But there was no discretion in this been placed on the books of the House of Commons,
case. Reduction was an act of necessity. The distress one by the Hon. Member for Inverness, a second by the
of the people was great, their burdens were heavy, and
Hon. Member for Berwicke' and a third by the Hon.
they were imperatively called upon to lessen them.— Member for Sheffield. NOiet,", seeing that those notices
(Hear.) They must cut down the civil service cf the were certain to lead to aniAdiscussion of the colonial
army and navy. He alluded especially to the extraor- question, he did not thinkrit 'desirable that they should
dinary expenses for building steam-vessels, and the get into a fourth discussion, of a general nature,
building of ships on trial, and of course he should on the desirabhity of retaining their colonial possessions,
have a similar resolution to offer with respect to The Hon. Gentlemanfurther,expressed himself in favour
the salaries iu that department. It was necessary the of it large se stern of einigidtiehn' the payment of pas"
House should take the initiative in these measures. The senger money, and the rare `e to emigrants by the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, who was Government. Those things might be all very right and
pretty determined himself, when once resolved, would proper, but they certainly wore not economic. The,
not reduce salaries unless they forced him—unless they sixth resolution which the Hon. Gentleman intimated
gave him the power of saying that he had no alternative an intention of proposing was on the subject of the
but to obey the resolution of that House, and on that bread-tax. What the nature of that proposition would
ground they ought to arm him with that power. With be the Hon. Member did not say, but he scouted-the
respect to colonial expenses, they had had so many de- notion of keeping up a duty on foreign -Cohn - `kny
bates of late that he was almost art aid of teuching upon reselutien conil,eted and ti,e bread-tax would.M*3l
uti
that sulnect. be long. ego as 1823 ..; petition 1,s:I been wit;,.- fivlci for discicii, at 0 he cornidered ib 11;11115v
presented by a Colanial Governor, setting forth reasons means advisable that they should enter on it, esl*.en" ofr
why the colonies should be governed by a Board, but when they found it connected with a multiplicity
bince that time nothing had been dyne na the mater, other complicated subjects. Who lam Gentlemaa'°b.