The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-19 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee e!
Supply.

Sir A. GRANT in the Chair.
THE CANADAS.

Lord HOWICK said, that in moving the resolutions
upon which he intended to settle the financial arrange-
ments of Canada, he thought it essentially necessary to his
suliect to state to the House the nature and origin of those
contests which had prevailed in the colony between the
representatives of his Majesty's Government and the co-
lonial assemblies of legislature. He would not trouble
the House upon this part of the subject at any very great
length ; for the report of the Canada Committee, and the
frequent recurrence to the topic in Parliamentary discus-
sious, must have satisfied Hon. Members as to the merits
of the case. For the information, however, of younger
Members of the House, and of those whose attention had
not hitherto been called to these contests, he felt that it
was necessary for him to give a general outline, or a slight
sketch, of the disputes and of their consequences, as well
as of the means by which he trusted their recurrence
would be for ever prevented, to the satisfaction and benefit
of all parties. A considerable portion of the revenues of
Canada was raised under an Act of Parliament passed in
the 14th of George M. In the year 1791 another Act
was brought into Parliament by which the Constitution
and Government of Canada were established. One
of the principal clauses of this last Act was a pro-
vision that the local or provincial Parliament or
Houses of Assembly in Canada should not pass any
Bill which might have the effect of altering Acts of
the British Legislature, which related to the colony or
to its produce and revenue. Under the words of this
Act it had always been contended by the officers of
his Majesty's Government that a strictly legal right of
disposing of the revenues of the colony resided 111 the
British Crown. But in ISIS the provincial Parliament,
by an Act of the British Legislature, were empowered to
vote sums in aid of the revenue of Canada, and the pro-
vincial Parliament then assumed the right, or set forth the
claim, of controlling the expenditure of the colony, the
burden of which it was called upon to bear. It would be
obvious to all who heard him, or who reflected upon the
subject, that the Houses of Legislative Assembly in the
Colony had the power to enforce their claims upon the
subject, as long as the Executive. Government had to come
to them for supplies. In this dilemma, he was sorry to
say Lord Dalhousie, the Governor, and Ministers at home
endeavoured to get out of the difficulty by the alternative
of breaking the law.----(Hear, hear.)—The House must be
well aware of what a miserable situation Canada was
thrown into for some years in consequence of this breach
of the law and violation of the Constitution of the Colony.
The conflicts between the Governor and the governed pro-
duced serious mischief to the community at large, and it
ended in those numerous petitions to the House which at
last led to the appointment of the Canada Committee, the
report of which had put Hon. Members in possession of
the facts of the case. The Committee had recommended
what was very proper to be done; but it was not in the
power of the Crown, without the assistance of Parlia-
ment, to put an end to these unfortunate disputes in the
manner which the Committee advised. It had therefore
ken the intention of Government to bring in a Bill to
enable Ministers to pursue the recommendation of the
Committee, and thus to restore the Colony to tranquillity ;
but the lateness of the Session precluded the possi-
bility of carrying the Bill through all its stages be-
fore the prorogation of Parliament. Sir James Kemp
had succeeded Lord Dalhousie as Governor of the Co•
logy, and one of his first steps was to inform the Provin-
cial Houses of Assembly that no further illegal propositions
should take place, and that the rights and constitution of
the colony should be respected. He then prayed the As-
sembly to pass a Bill of indemnity for what had taken
place, and be informed them that the salaries of the tiffi_
cers of Government alone should be pail out of the pro-
vincial revenue until the wishes of Parliament upon the
subject were made known ; for the Government then had
under its consideration a plan of finally settling the sub-
ject. The Assembly a few days after passed astiong reso-
lution, that it possessed the sole power of appropriating
the whole revenue of the colony, and that no resolution of
the House (of Commons) could avail in settling the ques.
don. A Bill passed as a provincial measure under these
ci
i,arscsuedrnastasnimceisla,rad
Bnill,inaruli Sit 29 the Provincial
was oniyb L
ythe greegaittilattxuerre-
;ions and popularity of Sir J. Kemp that he waft enabled

Niui was the
snake to prevent the evil consequences of such a state of diced
The Right Hon. and Gallant General opposite (Sir
Murray), as the Secretary of State for the Colonial kt
jreecstt,,lgNtViohnie:lie
partment, had list year brought in a Bill upon the
(Lord Hovvick's) duty to propose a Bi:lgrounded oP°ll,
move all existing difficulties, and enable his Majesty to
sent to the Acts of the Provincial or Colonial Assel
which related to the appropriation of the revenue• j
Governor of Canada would be directedan
surrenderdtowh
wasv,,as
anbo:outc;orrpiedro,ptanned, it was thereforeti
Provincial Assembly the whole of the disputed revenue,P,
at the same time he would ask of the Assembly a model
provision for the salaries of the Governor and Judges, to
•
ought not to depend upon the annual vote of the
sembly. In point of fact, it was proposed that what ri',ls
should
be called a civil list, upon a moderate scale,
voted every seven years. The Governor's salaries at'
contingencies were proposed to be made 5,2001• per. abr
charges were fixed, so that the whole list would ataeutie,:
num, the salaries of the Judges, 1,000/., and various ot
to 19,1001., of which 5,009/. was already granted by
re!
pvervuienc,i,afl
31,0001., and
dsointbraettttirhne
fCurrowwnhieghavie tsked
tb
gr.:nt of only 14,000/. It was further proposed
_tAlh
Judges should in future hold their offices upon r""
v ioor, and that no Judge, except the Chief Justice, s"v
ieh vj ou
would
be a member of the Executive Council, or interfere eic,al
party or local politics. It was also designed that the
lonia! Legislature should possess the power of alteriog t".
tenuretve
Acts of Pith 'anent which had regulated the
lands. It was well known that the co!ony had bee° If
scene of many jobs, which he trusted would in fattretit
prevented The Noble Lord concluded by inoving,,tu't
of justice, and the support of the civil government °
iatGAehf.oetunprae3iternhitiiucelorninftpßtorcioflAoevltoyil:nlieoi4sencptsito.:mfzr:ott.htieeieLtallpiaoptrnit,pth
erwi
aaatsdiorpensip:eifidtfide,:iouto'd
confusion, which renderedkemostremarks
amidstof hisa degree of
in:aiuseija4di

in the gallery. The Right Hon. Member was '74ble
stood to say, that from what had fallen from :heti...ee- 0
Lord, new members, unacquainted with what
done in the last Parliament, might suppose that titer" the
some want of due attention to the affairs of Canada °n
part of the late Government. This, however, be 'to
leave to deny, and in confirmation of that denial referredbe
th! course taken by the Cabinet of which he was a jambe
in relation to the subject. After observing that during
bsd
the session before last a measure of great importance
the the
almost exclusively engaged the attention of
Right Hon. Baronet said that last session a Bill wliiicbeeli
had brought forward with respect to Canada heljt to
p
only interrupted by a melancholy event that put * sh-ide•
many other measures of a public nature. It had been ".„-- re'
cided opinion that we ought to interfere with a yieW "-co,
coneile the differences existing bet ween the two brain
of the legislature in Canada. The Right Hot'. 3j;rl bf
alluded to the report of the Canada Committee quad bac
Lord Howick, and observed that it distinctly star4ei rlo
the House of Assembly ought to have a controul °vet.%of
crown revenues, but that the Judges and great 016ee'ijisi
State should be independent. It appeared from this
-se 0,
the principle of the Noble Lord's measure was by no 31/ned
new. He sincerely hoped that its effect might corresr,
will the intentions of its framers, and produce the yid
pected degree of conciliation in Canada. Meoll.aa, 11,
been made of a system of jobbing in the colontee be
challenged the Noble Lord to point out any job W,hjust."
(Sir G. Murray) was at the head of the Colonial meri°
ment.--(Hear, hear.) It was all along his most ansl,o
desire to put sue a liberal course towards the colooietoi
he would not make such concessions to the Asse°36„iYiser
woald give it an undue preponderance over the two .04
branches of the-legislature; and the policy which he,00...
proposed to pursue with respect to both province, —.0..
slated in extending the legislative council as much a 4
Bible. liba
Lord HOWICK did not mean to impute any thing;,e.
jobbing to the Right Hon. Gentleman in his adinitb-,r
tion of the colonies ; but appealed to the House
in former times, there had not been the grossest 0rg,...-. •
jobbing whit respect to the colonies. This was all ""
tended to convey.
1, 0
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, he had opposed
brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman °PIT;
and should support the measure of his Noble Friers
Ike
cause he considered it calculated to benefit Canada- —i lest
pliment which he could not pay to the proposition eeojeg
year. His opinion was, that our only mode of geve,,—s far
Canada well, was not to attempt to govern it at
ear
as the internal administration of the country lt—feetljr
eeroed. He believed that the Canadians were rrn try,
loyal and attached to the connexion with this Col ta
pi ovided they were only treated fairly. It became roul
cultivate this feeling ; for if ever we alienated the
dians, and threw then into the scale of powers hogt"ealot
this country, we should severely suffer by it. We °Wrifi'
to the colonies and to ourselves—we owed it to put.ees,
interest and character, to afford them as much haPPI:or
and freedom as it was in our power to bestow. la rite
elusion, the Hon. Member expressed a hope that the f. the
ciple applied by the Noble Lord to the settlement aloe
question of revenue, might also be applied to man/ alergY
subjects in which the colonies were interested--tbe
reserves among others. t"

Mr. H. TWISS observed, that one feature °I- to
Noble Lord's measure was, that it enabled the Goverl3°.,ht
assent to such measures as the Canadian Legislature 1131;on
propose with respect to revenue, but made no Pr°lfloch
for its disposal in the intermediate time previous "if et is
an arrangement. This he objected to as a great dce thtit
the proposition. The Hon. Member further added' the
in every respect but as to the provision for the Jadge°„'lieh
Noble Lord's proposition (for which he received s°
,;:ii of
credit) was the same as his Right lion. Friends Pl-pci,
list year, which, however, was not so fortunate ill c)

liating supporters. 40°1
Lord SANDON had no doubt but that the exPeroceed
proposed to be tried with respect to Canada would' be,
completely, and congratulated his Noble Friend 111)°'
ing the man to carry it into effect.
1 Pia°
Mr. HU,IE said, the great difference between
and that of last year was, that the Noble Lord's Pr°,`Ari'o
tion was practicable, while the Right Hon. Genttoed
never could have been carried into effect. He also eltlTfeel•
his opinion that it was better to trust to the
logs of Canada to do what was right, than to atternr
tli
ercion. He wished to know whether the measure WOO
both to Upper and Lower Canada. Sure he %vas tAiraos
passing of such an Act would be to the Canau;con'
highly-prized boon; it would afford satisfaction 3°140P,
tent, without which colonies were not worth ;3110'
He thought if the Bill passed, Canada ought to be,e Bp'
upon to support its own military establishment.Oo
prehended that the. Canadians themselves would
objection to this : he knew that they were Wiltr
Government would allow them, to raise three regu'" the
giments, and officer them altogether, or in parts file
youth of the country, and to defray the entire egiti;oo9,
Lord HOWICK explained, that the former Act
our right to vote away the money of the Canadian*
this Act was silent on the subk.ct. of his
Mr. TWISS said, that according to the Plan 41,
Right Hon. Friend, when the Canadians made an
ass
priation, the Act of which they complained was t° to
it was only until that period that the old regulation
remain in force.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the or° I
ordered to be received on Monday. ATOI •
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTI3I-i
Mr. C. W. WYNN moved that the House res°lv

into a Committee of Stipple. o
On the question that the Speaker leave the Cha eg 5
Mr. HUME rose.—After his expectations bad 17e-gsll
wound up, he was sorry to be obliged to use the 11°,,ed
of complaint and disappointment at the course
the Government. Tile present Ministers had talci7forP
on three pledges,—economy, non-intervention, and /,'"eforOn
Whatever might be their course with respect t° co c01':
with regard to economy and non-intervention, t"e";,,
duet had greatly disappointed him, when the II Io the 4
called upon to vote the military estimates before it' I, to;
preceding year our establishment had been kePt:pong,
considerable extent, and he undertook to saws thatw;:e, th
the mass of the community, the general opinion, "r
: i",,t
our military establishment was too large, and ..°oo‘r'o- f
to ask the members of his Majesty's Governiventl ileo •
acecocuonut.
ttrl37byhat(hl
tinecsrtzsaed testil,iiei tthe aabilythe.
The la
nistration had made a reduction in the establishneiehild
300,0001., awl from the present Government tbers:
right to expect that they would have brought d°"7;
timates below the amount of last year. After v3l'ie
t 1 v
tuations, the army had settled down last Year -e
men ; and the House was now called upon to V°.],ti ss;
men. And where was the necessity for this? ilbsben°„.
in a state of perfect peace.—(Loud laughter.) "roclarlY
—(A laugh.) Ile admitted that there had been „b) jt°
tions enough, but there had been no war.----(A !ft; rtbo
Ireland, indeed, was to be kept as a military. garrrice 01;
be retained by force of aims, then the whole tbat
country would not be sufficient. But he contendeu
quiet. ,
,
land was in a
.state of peace. Scotland, too, '18%00:
(A laugh.) Ile would tell the Noble Lord k c000lP)i
that while he and his colleagues were profeesing:4l
and putting down one or two civil offices, it -cListahl'
no avail if they kept up the present nailitarYd
tbe pa
wont. It was only by reducing the aunt an

such a state of disci/
eral opposite (Sir
;e for the Colonial
a Bill upon the s
it was therefore
Bill grounded upont
and which would t•
able his Majesty to
or Colonial Assernt
iof the revenue. Ti
:ted to surrender to e
Le disputed revenue,b
Assembly a mutters
rnor and Judges, wl
Judd
nual vote f the
,posed that what
p rid
crate scab, as
'governor's salaries ag
made 5,200/. per af
001., and various otbr
sole list wantedour
already gby tb,
Crown gave aka
se re
fur which it aed
ther ps opod that tb
>ffices upon good bets§
Chief Justice, shout
Lncil, or interfere vile
designed that the Ce
power of altering tbi
ulated the tenure 0
u
e colony had barea
;ed would in fbt
ded by moving, that
mat it was expedieattl
PPropriation of dutiel
tor the administratioouf
vii government in o

a degree of noise arid
his remarks inaudildt
Member was under
'alien from the Noble
with what had he e_.°,
fairs of Canada on thej
8) however, he begge°
that denial referred f
to
hich he was a rnembe
3bserving that duriog
great importance hod
lion of the Hose, the
e
ssion a Bill which
to Canada had bee°
vent that put aetop
re. It had bee bit de
ere with a vieW t°
reen the two branchel
Right foil.
Committee
Committee quoted hi
distinctly stated that
.e a controul Oct the
and great officers o
Reared from this
,sure was by no MOO°
d
fect might correse
and produce the 4;
mad& mention
be
iu the colonies: ~,
out any job while P.
the Colonial Der;
o$
ong his most aioe
bu
arils the colonies, but
arils
s to the Assembly r
ce over the o'7o 011
policy which be
°b
ail
provinces cf,;::
"it as much as r

impute any thing, like
in his admiaistfr.
I the House' lybetberi
the grossest systel°
This was all be or

lad opposed tbe
'is
opposite,
us Noble Friend, he"
nest Caeada.--a
he proposition of Jal/'
Y mode of goveroini
overn it at
as 1111,1e°r
fAr
le country it ,
niimis were perfectl
trY,
with this coon
-• It becameto° t°
e alienated the Cs,s:
of
powers bobtiled°
rby it. We owe
owed it to Or 001
as much hapPiflesi
to bestow. Ift cos"
a hope that the pria'
the settlement of the
'plied to many other
iterested--the clergY

one feature of the
bled the Governor to
in Legislature alight
made no provision
ne previous to ouch
) as a great defe chit
further ia
further added,
for the Jadoeeo , the
Fie received so ill
;uch
lon. Friends Bill of
fortunate in conci'

001
that the expe6 j
anada would suceee
ble Friend upon

ce between this pla°
Ade Lord's proe"i:,
Lion. GentlonsA
:t. He also eXpressi:
4t to the liberal fee
than to atternPt,C°:,i
the measure aPit"ii",
;lire he was that t",
to the Canadiang
atisfaction and °°:l,
not worth bto","1:4
a ought to be C 3,
Br
lishment. no
Ives would have if
ey were willingorr
ise three regular the
r in part, frost) •
e entire Opense• ed
former Act atietlot
the Canadians) "

of 1°
to the plat „F.-
.4,
sr
ins made all Ale
ained was to ,de to
Id regulatioo

and the rePor'
A
IIY E 5,13.1 , ice
House resoiv-

ave the Chair, ea f°
tatiOnS bad .egioe
to use the l`latted I));
course 11;1_1..0 eoc.
'els bad tailoole
ention, and fteforgi:
respect to .r co..'
vention,,,lboeujo,
ten the P 10" ,
es before it
dr
been kept otoogf
that a 06!
o say,. _ sok, Le.
opiniot' he vitsviot
rge, o'l no vi of
wernntent' ot
y estiblisho coo,
( The late fit et
'e. as
e esta e6'
vernatelatb the
down fitot
-ought riots 40
After va 131,°
to 00
Etst Yea„rote 69100
pon to •,
this? he o°s,
titer.) W"'ocl'2celf
had lir b.)
laug
r att
try gni ce
w hoicfloat
con te u: vie;
too,
le ""
d (
Lord ceoa qf
,rofeesilo
.)
i
,„ it ;tob isyby
ascnilitarY
A thi
ya
army

tikt
they could afford relief to the country. The Noble
Albano~ said that he could not grant a remission of tax-
die, unless he imposed new taxis. He (Mr. Hume)
4tXpect a much larger relief than had been given. Four
~,ireti and eighty thousand pounds was all the apparent
laution of taxation this year ; and if the excise was
i?,tuductive as was expected, he (Mr. Hume) did not
Cs* that there would be one shilling less taxes raised
AZ the people this year than the last. He contended
4 a larger reduction, a redaction I.f one million sterling
tititeaste should be made by a reduction of the military
tkebliBhment. Where was the necessity of so many
Pa in Canada? There were now more British troops
fita,laada than there were soldiers in the whole United
ttifi"' The late Secretary for the Colonies, who was
eiently acquainted with the circumstances of Canada,
to stated that we must rely upon the militia of Canada
eurcueet it against the United States. Therefore one
taken
1 sand men might be saved there, and taxes might be
en off to the amount of 45,0001. for every one thousand
8r;01. Great Britain should not be taxed 200,0001. or
otot??1:))/. for the lonian Islands, of which she was only-
the
1 !,r. Bat a degree of infection seemed to belong to
la the benches, and there was something terrific
°llly:idea of dispensing with soldi,rs. There was only
of two objects for a large military establishment
trf‘tither overawing the people. or inter.neddling in the
titens, °I other nations. The only cause to which he could
itt:rufeute the. present large increase was, a.de,termination to
is re with other nations, and by so doing the Ministers
tike contrary to their pledge. He would prove that by
itlidcuurse they had taken with Belgium and Hid-
,shis Majesty's Ministers and the British Ca
listiti"ad violated their pledge. The protocol or pro-
nto,. nOf the five great Powers had been rejected, anl
nfbing now remained but the last resource. On the 2
IN 'camber last, in the speech from the Throne, there
port Passage which could only mean that we would sup-
tt the ancient alliance formed for the settlement of the
het Europe,—that is, the Holy Alliance. There was
ofiilaration that it was not intended to interfere in the
oiti_aa of other nations ; hut the next step was a propo-
-0 of the five great Powers of Europe, recommending
otparrnistice between Belgium and Holland. Belgium ac-
re • this proposition, with the reservation, that the
ttribilisitice„should not lead to any interference in their in-
dri.l„' affairs. The five great Powers accepted this con-
etti;al of the Belgian Congress ; and on the 15'h of De-
tf five great Powers recognized the independence
lieli 4,,,1atn- On the 6th of January the Belgian agent
ltallP-ti,`" to the five Powers a note, declaring that it
tise Belgian Congress alone which could settle the
inter of the country, and that they would not allow of any
fereuee. Was not' deciding upon the boundaries of a
Isetelats interference? Yet on the 20th of January a pro-
tejonaPPeared laying down the boundary line between
tilei,74l and Holland, which was directly interfering. On
tile," of rebrulry, the Belgian Congress protested against
nrit,,rll)t°col of the five Powers, and declared that they would
The,ebtnit to the five Powers using any such dictation.
toriP"ceedings, however, were not limited to limits.
tolt ealnterston one of the great Powers—(A laugh)-
111\the amount' of the debt of Belgium and Holland.
that ''sPuties replied, that they had no power to discuss
en tl question with the five Powers ; that the Belgium
nlititatesa Were the only parties competent, and they de-
tit° give any information. What business had these
~dlrthe debts of Holland and Belgium ? He
deelo.h,larne) would ask whether there had been any
titino-4 " to what portion of the debt belonged to Bel-
4skrand what to Holland ? On the 7th of February the
°I/te'ie,t Powers declared they would not recognize as King
trithe glum the Duke de Nemours or the Duke de Leuch-
-41, r,_• What business had we to embroil ourselves
Itite election of a King? If this was not interference,
'11,4 tle's, not what was interference. He would contend,
~-"a Whole system of this Government was anything
trid" sYstem of non-interference. In short, they were
iotrodeatly bringing up that odious system which had been
n,4lduteed by the Holy and which he hoped
o 1: ue crippled and destroyed at last.—( Hear.)—The
great p
owers, it appeared, had refused to allow the
1.t.,4411% to receive the Duke of Nemours or the Duke of
klrtl;tenhelrg as their King; and be should be glad if the
14441 Lord would inform the House whom those Powers
hitt agree that the Belgians should accept as their sove-
al isa.„., in his opinion, however, the Noble Lord and his
Istreg."°ta had been overmatched in this negotiation ; for
144 4it protocol was sent to Bresson, he refused to sign it,
with
„ was thrown back upon the negotiating Powers
thinkr'rfect contempt. Those Powers had done various
14)ititee',"'hioh they bail not the least right to do. The
14t .'enee of all their proceedings would probably be,
thitttabllostile force would enter Belgium; and he believed
NoblUelgians were prepared to receive it. Unless the
hotve Lord and his colleagues were ready to enforce their
•
ottlt marching troops into Belgium, they must rest
and With the contempt which would be cast on
4tted.'" consequence of their protocol having been re-
Now' he would a-k whether the people of this
wauld bear the expense of such a large military
.4te?-14Leilt, for the purpose of interference with another
got,,„„ tie thought that Ministers ought no longer to be
Ztape7lecit° Proceed in this way, and
.that they should be
I,y before the House copies of all the protocols
b,llll "athe British Government had been parties. He
iitaoiltilei".. of that House whether
.the country was at
lit 414 c" condition to enter the lists for the. purpose
t`•ring with Belgium, and preventing the
1.4 4na front
electing whom they pleased as their sove-
iltsn Proper interference with the affairs of other
thlgnt di-'aid never support the dignity of the Crown.
tiptinitY Would be best upheld by reducing the taxes
'it-„havirlq:ling content and happiness over the land, instead
L. 6 that recourse to new exactions, and thereby increas-
ut t, wretchedness and misery which was at present
t\easi,-° Prevalent. The Hon. Member concluded by
'thisissig„."`` That an bumble address be presented to his
ague Pj'aYing that he will be pleased to direct that
-
to 'aid before this House copies of all protocols
ai*tablel by the Commissioners of the five great Powers
°f 84
1,44. 1
'flit London,' with respect to the affairs of Bel-
lttrt-n,er„ as
83G0reat Britain is concerned, since the month
4,1r.,1VNT seconded the motion.
ttlie ALMERSTON said that he could not avoid ad-
g the p
tll,4ted t muse on some, at least, of the many points
ptlee °bY the Hon. Member for Middlesex, standing
alentalivthe lion. Member had observed, the humble re-
111hes, I:,°f the five great Powers, to whom allusion
Nil 'elem.c'. In the first place, he would make one or
on th. with respect to what the Hon. Member had
Mer,`,.eltb,lect of our military establishments. The
.y tthser, it appeared, was at a loss to see any rea-
!ha' eh e military force of the country for the present
is 41:111°,;;Ii exceed that of the preceding year; and the
hiLie had broadly stated that there was nothing
It 4 ation
of England, or of the empire, that re-
l'e„ ace e ,t'itcPutred addition. Ireland being in a state
httr'oo addleilfl lion. Member could not conceive why
Iton)ti,4%ional men were wanted. He (Lord Palmer-
%allot aMultialted that any man could get up in that
ia, add ttontd declare that the Government of England
140,2° pre: armed with a proper power to enforce the
°,4tr.'ty oit.'e the public tranquillity, and to preserve the
,le:ll4g;esr andiwAisicaty's subjects from those disturbances,.
th Poliations the recollection of which must be
kei'te the $o of every Member of that House.—(Hear.)
he Ibikht7en• Member observed that the peace of he-
llo': 'ti,4l4l):ll"fficiently preserved by a far smaller force,
).1. 141 rsi t greatly surprised at the assertion. The.
sin-`)er need not go far—he need not, indeed, stir
`th,' illns :eats-4o see the necessity which existed for pur-
-11,101 to
ado which the Government felt themselves
ilttit:ltipni4auttrit:rytta:;:t3Piril.t.:.:"....drut(ilii7l:ear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell,
° "sr- Hume.)—All that Government were
nd
phatdo the complete establishment of
no intention to go beyond that
tiltit:ititteitilliye‘wtia:lea..t6l.otitnsii,ni:ent.---(Hear.)—With respect to the
„ on which the Hon. Member had dilated,
noseyonnecto go into any argument to prove
fitted proer that the colonies should
'Pla,eelit'Xie military epstablishment far their protec-
ton, to greater part of the Hon. Member's speech re
s.
~
7'twhich were proper for discussion in the
itiOtiotls.,vather than to be addressed to the House on
Vet t 'oat the
t 0 th._ Speaker do leave the Chair. With
tt, ttiort " Portion of the Hon. Member's speech
"ntas tif eaP!cially related to him (Lord Palmerston),
44 tak P44°,1 that the course. which hotel
Hon. Mem-
(lletty than Was not tt\less convenient to the service of the
Os,t:',Whe..w..!.s unusual in Parliamentary practice.—
Latter, it wes'lt-iovernment was negotiating with other
ft beta,ital, he apprehended, for that House not
, 44,een his Majesty's Government and the
", the •tk th, Pending (Governmentnegociati hear.)—
Vr'l et to 1..41 such confidence in the
ki, think oft,_that they might safely be intrusted with
:itt Itildatuure country, then he thought it followed that
,_pie,4fore tke_ Ought to wait till the negociation was
vie,._ueY called on the Government to present a
t)yQr, heawr of their transactions with reference to it.
%tilt:ll4e th)`,.A challenge had been given by the Hon.
444 Y bjer"evernment, for the purpose of inducing
;it tlegoeia!, the House all the documents connected
IZ,htittk' th, TIT? ; but the inconvenience which had
ciNt, , 14,1 eigie Government from publishing day by
ask' ,te eeeurred in their intercourse with other
tt JaSting this question, was so manifest, that
it
84" a decided answer to the lion. Aleut-

ber's proposition.—(Hear.)-11 he did not follow the
. Hon. Member through all his statements as to the &fe-
-1 rent protocols, he trusted the House would believe him
• when he said, that it was not because he could not effec-
t tually answer then:. Let it not be supposed that, when
the proper time arrived, his Majesty's Government would
not be perfectly prepared to go into the minutest details of
these transactions ; but certainly they would not lend
themselves to immature discussions on subjects which were
not yet ripe for consideration.—(Hear.)—Still, he was
not willing to let the observations of the Hon. Mem-
ber piss without a general answer. The Hon. Member
had asserted that Government were proceeding on the
principles of the Holy Alliance, and that they
were departing from the principle of nen-inter-
ence in the internal affairs of other States. He
begged leave to deny the charge in toto.—(Hear, hear.)
There was nothing whatsoever in the conduct of Govern-
ment that could sustain or countenance such a charge.—
(Hear, hear.) It did appear to him that the Hon. Member
must have a strange confusion is his mind, when he con-
founded the regulation of external boundaries and limits,
with an interference in the internal concerns of a State.
He would tell the Hon. Member the grounds .on which his
Majesty's Government had proceeded. Did he forget that
Belgium never was, in modern time, an independent
State ? First it was Spanish, then it was Austrian, and
next it was French. When the settlement of Europe took
place, at the close of the late war, the natural course, per- ,
haps, would have been that Austria, its farmer master,
should enter into possession cf it ; but as Austria sur-
rendered her right to it, all the Powers—Austria included
—were disposed to ally Belgium to Holland. This was
done, not kr the benefit of England—not as a matter of
grace and favour to the King of the Netherlands. No,
that step was taken to guard acid maintain the peace and
security of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) And if circumstances 11
had occurred which rendered that union no longer pos-
sible, then, he would maintain, that the Powers which
had ore taloned that union possessed a right to concern
themselves with reference to its settlement, refraining,
at the same time, from any interference with Belgium,
so far as respected the form of government or the consti-
tution which its people might please to adopt.—(Hear,
hear.) No such interference had taken place or was in-
tended ; but unquestionably the other Powers of Europe had
a right to look narrowly to proceedings with which their
own immediate interests were closely connected.—(Hear,
hear.)—They had a right to say, " You are only a Go-
vernment of yesterday—you never were an independent
state—you have been the servants of one master after
another,—you have no right to deprive Holland of her an-
cient boundaries,—you have no right to convert yourselves
into aggressors, and to claim, as yours, that which belongs
of right to another."—(Hear, hear.)—Therefore, he con-
tended, that the Powers of Europe, and particularly
England, were bound to say, that the ancient territories of
Holland should not suffer. Belgium claimed the Duchy
of Luxembourg. That Duchy belonged to the confedera-
tion of the German empire ; and the five great Powers
had no authority to say to the Belgian Government, "You
shall enter into that territory ;" and simply for this reason,
because the German Confederation had rights connected
with it, which no other Power ought to interfere with.
He saw nothing in the principle of non-interference, if
properly and rightly laid down, to which any objection
could be made ; but if that which passed in a neighbour-
ing country was calculated to affect the general peace of
Europe, then he conceived that interference to a certain
extent was justifiable. Thus, if a person naturally dan-
gerous were selected for a Sovereign, those Powers who
feared that they should be injured by the choice, had a
right to say (without declaring who should be King),
" Such a person will prove dangerous to us, and therefore
sucha person we will not have."—( Hear. )—Proceeding on
this principle, he womld maintain that the other powers
were justified in sayiug to France, "It is not consistent with
our feelings, with our interests, and with our engage-
ments, that the Duke of Nemours should become King of
Belgium ; because, in that case, Belgium will virtually he
united to France.—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the
Duke of Leuchtenberg, be was placed in such circum-
stances, that if be were nominated King, Belgium would
become the focus of intrigue, and therefore those Powers
had a right to say, that he was in their eyes particularly
objectionable. Now he meant to argue that this was not
an interference with the internal offal's of Belgium, in any
fair or proper application of the term. The Hon. Mem-
ber had spoken at length on the subject of the adjustment
of the debts of Belgium and Holland, and he had quoted
a variety of protocols, which he (Lord Palmerston) would
for the present pass by ; but he would, when the proper
time came, give the fullest explanation on those points.
He would only now observe, that when Holland and Bel-
gium were united, the debts of the two countries were
also united, consolidated, and made common to both ; and
now that a separation had taken place, it struck him as not
being at all contrary to the principles of justice, or of in•
dependence, that each party should be accountable for his
own debts. He would at a proper time accede to such a
motion as that which had been submitted to the House by
the Hon. Member, but he should at the present moment
resist it, because he was of opinion, that if it were agreed
to now, it would probably be attended with great and
serious inconvenience to the public service.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said he should support the motion
of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, because he thought
that the House ought to have full information on the sub-
ject to which the motion referred. He had intended to
have asked a question with reference to himself, humble
an individual as he was, but he would postpone it to
another opportunity. In his opinion, there had been an
interference by this country with the internal affairs of
Belgium ; and, as it appeared to him, the very worst kind
of interference.—(Hear, hear.)—The speech of the Noble
Lord to-night proved that there had been a most improper
interference. The Noble Lord had talked of a Govern-
ment of yesterday. Yes, it was a Government of yester-
day, because it was only yesterday that the Belgians had
broke the chains by which. the Holy Alliance had bound
them to Hollanl, which was, he would say, one of the
basest and most flagitious acts that had ever been com-
mitted. There were, however, more Governments of
yesterday--if that oimervation was meant as a taunt.
The Government of Louis Philip was a Government of
yesterday.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord had told
them that there was no interference with the internal
affairs of Belgium—that the meddling with the boundaries
of a country was no interference. It was perfectly evi-
dent that the contrary was the fact; for those who inter-
fered with the boundary might gn so far as to cut off Brus-
sels, or any other portion of territory, from Belgium. It
was just as if an individual wished to take a large farm,
and a powerful neighbour came and said, " I don't mean
to interfere, but your farm shall be only half the size you
wish ; I don't mean to interfere, but I will next examine
your nurse; and lastly, though I don't mean to inter-
fere, yet I do not like the young woman whom you have
selected for a wife, and you shall not marry her."—(Hear,
hear.) It would he very well if the Noble Lord admitted
that this was an interfering Government, and endeavoured
to defend the principle ; but to say that it was not, with
those facts in evidence, was ridiculous. lie could see no
reason why those papers should not be laid before the
House, and they had been laid before the people of Bel-
gium. He could not conceive what end would be an-
swered by a system of concealment. In consequence of
the course which this Government was pursuing, France
would receive all the benefit that might be derived from
the affections of the Belgians, whilst England was thought-
lessly flinging it away.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said his
Maj. sty's Government had been accused with having de-
parted from the pledge of non-interference which they had

iwmerly given. This accusation was perfectly unfounded.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex entirely approved of the
conduct of :Ministers in endeavouring to preserve peace ;
but how could they preserve it, if they were prevented
from touching on thss question of boundary?—(Hear,
hear.) Every man who valued the peace of Europe
must see the absolute necessity which existed on the
part of this Government to gibe some opinion as
to the limits which ought to be established between
Holland and Belgium.—(Hear, hear.) The anxious
object of his Majesty's Government had been to do
every thing in their power to preserve the peace of
Europe; because, if the peace of Europe were broken,
the peace of this country would inevitably be hazarded ;
and he was quite sure that nothing which Ministers had
done in endeavouring to effect that object could legiti-
mately he considered as breaking the pledge of non-inter-
ference which had been given. It was very evident that
sovereigns might be proposed for Belgitun whose elevation
would be the inevitable cause of war in Europe ; and he
would assert that every country had a right, without going
beyond the power which the law of nations allowed, to
interfere so far as to prevent any sovereign from being
elected, or rather not to acknowledge the election of any
sovereign, whose elevation to that dignity was likely to
foment war with other Powers.—(lleac, hear.) It was
on this point only that Ministers objected to the election
of the two Princes whom the lion. Gentleman had named.
They had acknowledged the independence of Belgium, and
all the five Powers bad guaranteed the neutrality of that
country. It was, unquestionably, a matter of the utmost
possibl- importance that the five great Powers of Europe
should have decided that Belgium should be an inviolable
and neutral state.—(Hear, hear.) All that Ministers had
done was to preserve the peace of Europe; and they had

in no degree deserved the charge of interference ivhit-h ha
heen brought against them. • .

Sir R. PEEL rose to give his decided opposition to the
' motion now before the House, because he was not pre-
pared to compel his Majesty's Ministers to produce copies
of all the proceedings that had take❑ place in the different
conferences relative to Belgium ; particularly when his
Noble Friend had stated, on his responsibility, this night,
that their production would be prejudicial to the pubic
business.—(Hear, lyar.) For his own part, he was con-
tent with the assurance, that when the proper time came
the fullest information would be given on the subject ; and
therefore he could not postpone the vote far the army esti-
mates until the production of those papers. Being con-
vinced that it was highly impolitic to provoke discussion,
possibly of an angry nature, with respect to the condition
of other countries, he would abstain from assigning the
reasons which induced him to support the proposition of
increasing the military establishment of the country. mi.
would not, though merely an individual Member of Par.
liament, imitate the example which had been set in the
popular assemblies of a powerful and neighbouring State,
and obstruct the great object of maintaining peace by un-
dignified declamation. If, however, the necessity should
arise, we would prove that our silence had not arisen from
indifference to the honour or the permanent interest,
of this country.—(Hear, hear.) He was confident that
such had been the progress of knowledge, and such was
the force of justice even in this world, that the country
which might provoke an unjust war—which should again
visit Europe with the most terrible infliction to whirl,
humanity could be subject—that of a general war
without a just cause—that country, whatever might
be its financial resources—whatever might be its spi-
rit of military enterprise—whatever might be the num-
ber of soldiers which it could command, would ul-
timately fall the victim to the force of public opinion,
which would compose all our internal differences, and rally
the whole of Europe to vindicate the great cause of peace
and justice.—(Cheers.)--He was perfectly confident, that.
if when France vindicated her own rights, and revolted
against the unjust proceedings of the late Ministers, the
Powers of Europe had confederated against the right of
France to change her own internal Government, they
would ultimately have failed in that unjust cause, and
France would have nobly vindicated her right to change
her own governors in the circumstances in which she was
placed, against the combined will of Europe.—(Cheers.)
—He was equally confident, that if unjust ambition should
tempt France to pursue the course which forfeited his
empire to Napoleon,—if a military faction should overrule
the good sense of that nation,—then the whole of Europe
would be united in as just a cause as that to which he
had just referred, and the result would be equally glorious
to them.—(Hear.)—Ile would dwell no longer on the
subject. He earnestly hoped that the confidence which
his Noble Friend had in the assurances of France would be
justified. For his own part he did not profess to say that
he read the speeches of the French Finance Minister with-
out anxiety and alarm.—(Hear.)—His Noble Friend,
however, knew more of these matters than he could. He
mild only repeat his hope that his Noble Friend placed a just
confidence on theassurance which he received from France.
He was sorry that his Noble Friend had said so much on
the subject 01 Belgium, the more so, because he thought
that there was nothing in the speech of the Hon. Member
for Middlesex which called fur it. But as his Noble
Friend had thought proper to say so much, he must allow
him to say that he could hardly believe that he (Sir
Robert Peel) had been turned out of office on the principle
of non-interference.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)--On the
question of Reform, he was content to be at issue with the
present Ministers. He had every reason to believe that his
opinions on that subject were at variance with the opinions
of the House, and he had no hesitation whatever in saying
that even if Government had not been defeated on the
question of the civil list, there would probably have been
such an expression of opinion on the part of the House
with respect to Reform as might have made it exceedingly
difficult to conduct the affairs of Government with advan-
tage to the country. But to be told that he had lost of-
fice Oil the ground of retrenchment !—(Much cheering)—
to have it supposed that be was separated in the public
mind from his Noble Friend and his colleagues, on those
two points,—namely non-interference and retrenchment,
—appeared to him one of the most extraordinary things
possible.—(Cheers.) The first part of the speech of his
Noble Friend, in which he dilated upon the necessity of
maintaining the military establishments, so much re-
minded him of those happy times when his Noble Friend
was Secretary of War, and he sitting by his side applaud-
ing every sentence which he uttered, that he could hardly
believe that he was in a state of political hostility to him.
Cheers and laughter.) When he heard the Members
of Government declare that the principles on which they
acted, as opposed to the late Government, were those of
retrenchment and non-intervention, he would frankly state
that he did them the justice of utterly disbelieving their
declarations, and felt perfectly confident that their conduct
would be actuated by a due regard to the interests of the
country,—that they were honourable men, prepared to
throw overboard the declarations which they had so often
heard.—(Hear, and laughter.) The Indians believed that
they inherited all the qualities of their eneinis as soon as
they were killed. It might be truly said, that as soon as
one set of Ministers were killed, their opponents seemed
to inherit nearly the same doctrines which had charac-
terised those whom they vanquished. They found it ne-
cessary to support the monarchical institutions, and the
honour and interests of the country, and would not pre-
judice those great interests by too rigid a regard to
the flashy speeches which they made whilst out of office.
(Cheers, and laughter. )—That was the truth. He
felt perfect confidence in Ministers as honourable men.
With respect to retrenchment, if they meant any material
reduction of the burdens of the people, he knew that to
be impossible ; and with respect to non-intervention, he
believed that they would never lose sight of the interests
of the country, which they were bound to protect. Ile
did not believe that Ministers when out of office made pro- I
fessions on the subject of economy with the intention
of producing discontent and dissatisfaction in this
country, though lie feared that their speeches had
produced that effect. Although he differed from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, there was no man in whose
personal honour he placed greater confidence, and he hoped
that when the country saw the Noble Lord who was
the avowed advocate of popular rights coming forward,
and instead of reducing the estimates propose an addition
to them, they would not view the conduct of the House
with dissatisfaction. The Hon. Member for Middlesex
said that the late Government had made a reduction of
150,0001. between 1829 and 1830, and that therefore
the present Government was bound to do as much. Was
there ever such an absurd mode of reasoning !—(Hear.)—
Was the conduct of the Government to be regulated by
an iron formula, without any reference to she circum-
stances of the country ? He would merely observe by the
way, that though the proaent Government had boasted
that they would not govern by patronage, they could not
add to the army without increasing their patronage.
With respect to real retrenchment, he believed it
would be found that the present Government would
do very little. The Right. Hon. Baronet opposite
might again rise and sing his hymn of victory
over the abolition of the office of Lieutenant• General of
the Ordnance, and some other places which had not been
contemplated by the late Government ; but he appre-
hended that what the country thought retrenchment
meant was a considerable reduction of their burdens.—
(Hear.)—With respect to non-intervention, he did not
differ much from his Noble Friend opposite, though he
must say that be never heard the doctrine of the right of
intervention argued on such high ground even by Lord
Castlereagh hitnself.—(llear, hear.)— Whilst he listened
to his Noble Friend, he was astonished that the King's
speech at the opening of Parliament should have excited
such virtuous indignation. Ile thanked his Noble Friend
for having vindicated that speech, though his vindication
was extravagant. What did his Noble Friend say had
given us the right of interference ? Why this material
circumstance, that Belgium never was an independent
state. What ! because a country had never been inde-
pendent, did other nations acquire a stronger right to in-
terfere in her affairs ? The South American provinces
were never independent until now; but would any one
pretend that that circumstance gave other nations a supe-
rior right of interference ?—(Flear.)--In the latter part
of his speech his Noble Friend had stated a fairer• ground
for interference, when he said, that if what was passing in
a particular state was pregnant with danger to other
Powers, then those other Powers had a right to protect
their own interests by interfering in the affairs of the
obnoxious Power. That was the true principle of in-
terference. He could not concur in what had fallen
from his Noble Friend as to the proposed arrange•
ments respecting the debt of Holland and Belgium. The
arrangement which was recommended by the Allied Powers
might be a very equitable one ; but if the Belgians
should refuse to accede to it, had England a right, or ought
she, to go to war to compel them ? His Noble Friend
said that the Allied Powers had a right to compel Belgium
to relinquish Luxembourg upon the faith of the general
treaties of 1815. In the Speech from the Throne, at the
commencement of the Session, the Government had done
nothing more tha❑ express an intention of adhering to
those treaties, as the conduct best calculated to preserve
the peace of Europe. But if the Allied Powers were en-
tided to separate Luxembourg from Belgiutn, without re-
tarenee to the washes of the former, what became of the

doc'rine that Feople had a right to choose their own Go-
vernments? He thought that the British Government
was quite justified in refusing their assent to the proposi-
tion for placing the Duke of Netnours on the throne of
Belgium. Common sense suggested the impolicy of al-
lowing Franc, to encircle our shores, and to obtain pos
session of territory, which in time of war would be con-
verted into an instrument of serious annoyer's,. He had
said thus much to prove that there was no difference be
tween the doctrines expressed in the King's Speech at the
opening of Parliament. and those which the present 111 i•
nistera acted upon. As far he was personally concerned,
it would be more agreeable to him to see the Government
pursue a course which would enable him to give them his
support, than to dispossess them of their places. He
earnestly hoped that when they brought forward the se-
rious question of Reform, for the sake of their own el:a-
ranter, for the sake of the interests of the country, that
They would act on the same just principles on which they

Nad acted with respect to the two points to which he had
already referred, and that the taunts of the Hon. Member

for Middlesex, and those who acted with him, would not
tempt them to propose for the consideration of the House
any measure which they thought pregnant either with im-
mediate or contingent prejudice, to the interests of the
great country over whose present and future welfare it was
their bounden duty to watch.—(Cheers.)
Lord PALNIERSTON explained that his argument was
that Belgium bad no right to deprive the Government of
Holland of a country with which it had been historically
illied.—(Cheers continued for some time.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM could assure the House that
he meant to delay it but a short time ; but he should be
unworthy of, the situation he held, and be should not act
fairly towards his colleagues, if he did not trouble the
House with a few observations, in reply to the Right
Hon. Baronet. He should begin with that topic with
which the Right Hon. Baronet concluded his speech.
1 he topic of Parliamentary Reform, which was second in
importance to none, was the subject of the real difference
between that Right Hon. Gentleman and his successors.
It will be the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to prop ,se
measures of Parliamentary Reform; as the Right Hun.
Baronet had recommended them, in prop,sing a measure
to improve the representation of the people, not to
forget what was due to the Monarchy and the insti-
tutions of the country The Ministers had already
assured the House and the country, that the limit
to their proceedings in. respect to Parliamentary
firm—the precise limit to which they meant to
direct their efforts, was to give security to the institutions
of the country. The Right Honourable Baronet had
told them, with somewhat of irony, that their present
conduct was inconsistent with their former pledges on
the two subjects of non-interference; but in saying that,
the Right Hon. Baronet had done justice to their motives,
and had given them credit for acting honestly, and with
a view to that great and proper object, the good of the
country ; and the Ministers presumed that these admissions
might lead him to believe, that in what respected Parlia-
mentary Reform 6'4 would act on the same motives, and
with the view to the same object—the public gotd, which
was the only one they had at heart.—(Hear.) With re-
spect to retrenchment, the Right Hon. Gentleman said

that he (Sir James Graham) might chaunt the hymn of
victory over the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-Gene-
ral of the Ordnance, which the last Government seemed

to think was not material. If that were the proper occa-
sion, he could mention a great number of offices, and offices
that constituted in themselves a great patronage; if

that were the occasion, be could mention several officers
connected with that department with which he was more
immediately concerned, which had been abolished ; but
that was not the time to enter upon such explanations.—
The Right Hon. Baronet talked of what the late Govern-
ment could do ; he could state what the present Ministers
bad done.—(Cheers.) He could appeal to the House and
the country, as far as related to patronage, whether the
present Ministers had not faithfully redeemed their pledges.
The Right Hon. Baronet said the establishment had not
been effectually reduced according to the promise. He
admitted this. But why—was it consistent with their
sense of duty? The Ministers ought to have credit for
the reductions they had made in establishments. They
had found it their duty in one respect to increase: they
had added to the efficacy of the force without increasing
the expense. How was that ? By cutting off what
was superfluous, and making that which was essential
efficient ; by throwing overboard patronage.—(Cries of
" No.") He asserted that they had sacrificed great pa-
tronage, and he could say that of the department to which
he belonged ; and, without adding to the expense, that
great branch of the public service had been materially in-
creased. The Ministers did not take credit to themselves

for all these improvements, but they had been enabled to
make some of them by the state of efficiency in which
they found the War-office. He gave the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the late Secretary of War (Sir Henry Hardinge)
the greatest credit for his exertions. He considered that
Right Hon. Gentleman one of the most efficient, regular,
and judicious public servants the country had ever pos-
sessed.—(Hear, hear.) The arrangements at the Horse
Guards were the cause that they had been able to raise
8000 men additional, without any increase of expense.
But the question was asked, whence arises the necessity fur
the augmentation ? In return he would ask, if ever a Go-
vernment succeeded to office under circumstances more full,
more overwhelmed, he might say, with difficulty?—( Hear.)
He could assure the Right Hon. Baronet that he meant to
cast no odium on him; but he must be allowed to remind
him of the state of the Home Department, over which the
Right Hon. Baronet had presided, and he must know that
when he left the office the metropolis was in such a state

that his Majesty's late Ministers declared that it was not
proper for his Majesty to visit the City of London.—
(Cheers.) He wished the House to recollect that without
employing any military force the Ministers had succeeded
in vindicating the law—that without shedding even a drop
of Wood by the band of a soldier, except that of the man
whose case was alluded to the other evening by his Hon.
Friend the Member for Wilts, when he described the great
forbearance of the yeomanry, except that one life, no
blood had been spilled by the military, and yet the insur-
rectionary spirit that prevailed in the country bad been
subdued. Was there nothing too in the state of Ireland to
justify some caution, when in that country with loud, and
be might say shameless assertions, Great Britain had been
threatened that the Union should be repealed by physical
force ? Yes, he said threatened, for the use of physical force
was threatened. What had been done ? The Govern-
ment hail vindicated the supremacy of the law, and by the
Courts of Law. Such threats had been met by the civil
power, and when made had only induced the Government
to exert the powers the Constitution had placed in their
hands. He adopted to the fullest extent every word of
what his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) had said on a
former evening ; and though he considered civil war as the
greatest of alel,
for one,
wouldevil s,
fightshortfo
only
ere loland
of dismembering
elime bwe,r,innlff
the empire, he,
fight for Kent.—(Hear, hear.) tie was not blind to the
perils of such a contest ; but, ea far as it depended on him,
the country should never cease to resist the separation, and
he was sure that the whole people, who had never been
conquered, would net allow themselves to be overcome by
the people of Ireland. He corrected himself, he did not
say that the people of the two countries were opposed, it
only
net the
demagogues.
—(Cheers.)
;la.-lion called out " Name, name !" Several Members
called " Order, order !") It was only one or two
demagogues, who knew not in what the interest of the
country consisted, who sought for the repeal of the Union.
There never was a country which had derived more
benefit from. another than Ireland had from England
since the Uaion. That country derived wealth from
this, and found here the market for her produce. It was
not Irish people, and it was not the Irish patriots_they
CitAhlr' re °f'e
never would : was only demagogues who desire the
separation.— Gr
eonrenei a nt Mahonop elßelgium,
nc called dliaegai n,
would'6N aomn
ley,
hisstate, that W
Noble Friend did not say that being legis-
lators of yesterday was a cause of interference, but, being
new, it was necessary to prevent them from interfering
with other States. Luxembourg was expressly given to
Holland by the treaty of 1815, and it had long been the
hereditary possession of the House of Nassau. Belgium
could not be allowed to interfere with it, unless she were
to be allowed to commit an aggression on another Power ;
anaggression, too, that was likely to alter the balance of
power could not be allowed. It was the duty of the Go-
vernment to interfere. The Right Hon. Baronet said that
there was no difference between the doctrine of the
nisters and that of the King's Speech ; but, if he recol-
lected right, that speech spoke of the enlightened policy of
the King of Holland, and expressed disapprobation of
his revolted. subjects. It expressly called the policy
of the King enlightened. A most ambiguous refer-
ence was made in that Speech to the treaties of 1815, by
which Holland had been united to Belgium, as if it were
doubtful whether his Majesty's Government did not feel it-
self bound to maintain the union of Holland with Belgium.
by force, but that was directly contrary to the opinion of
his Majesty's present Government. The Right Hon.
Gentleman admitted
gaveadmit fotedr not
eopt allowingropri the Duke of Neino
etyofthereasonwhichtalrie
Government s
to be King of Belgium. The Government was opposed to
war, and it was solemnly pledged to avoid that greatest of
all possible calamities, by all the exertions in its power
that were consistent with the honour and safety of the
couutry. Isle would appeal to the public and the House if

they had not successfully pi oerved pease, and he hoped
that the honour of England remrined untarnished. The.
blockade of the Scheldt hail been put an end to, and not
blow struck. The si.ge of Maastricht had been raised,
and not a drop of blood had been spilled. Great ditficul,
ties had been overcome by neize:ciations. His Noble.
Fiiend had stated that he ha I received assurances from all
the t;ereign Governments of Eorape of their peaceful dis-
positions, and there was co reason to doubt the fidelity of
those assurances. Ministers could not shut their eyes,
however, to the fact that al Europe was arming on a lag.
scale. Consistent with their declaration, they will do
what they could to preserve peace, and it was their policy
to preserve peace by showing that, should the honour of
,he country be attacked, or the security of the nation en
tangoed, they were prepared to repel the aggression. lie
was a humble individual, and he was aware that it wa•
very easy t I strip him of any popularity he might pos-
sess, hut while his conscience told him that he had no'
oeen regardless of the situation and condition of the
country, he should he contented with the silent approba-
tion of his own heart, which told him whatever might
the result, and he had no doubt it would be one of triumph
end exultation to 11;s country, he should be contented to
have contributed, according to his duty, to the safety of
his country, by his zealous endeavours to preserve peace,
end his strenu•nts exertions not to leave the country de-
fenceless.--(Cheers.)

Sir J. YORKE. having observed upon the universality
el the present debate, although the ostensible subjet.t was
the artily estimates alone, referred to the nitre-economical
recommendations of the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
who certainly appeared to labour under the effects of what
Tile vulgarly called " a bee in the bonnet." Mos; as
;tiredly, if he continued to recommend a diminution of the
force of the country in times like the present, he should
feel it necessary to move for a committee de lunatic° in-
quirendo.—(Laughter.)—Abserbed, as he must have been,
by that interesting species of literature comprised under
the designation of Parliamentary returns, it was not
strange that he should not have found time to look at the
public newspapers for the last six months, which would
otherwise have convinced him of the necessity of putting
the kingdom iii a position of defence. The Hon. Gen-
tleman seemed to think that a Government ought always
,c) be able to abduct us from all serapes, past, present, and
to come, without even the intervention of political nego-
tiation with other states; but he should have considered
that the kind of intervention heretofore employed, to
which he so much objected, had been entirely of au
amicable nature. To the unfortunate circumstances
which had occurred during the memorable 'days of Ju'y,
lie feared they might attribute all the troubles through-
out Europe which at present threw so much business
on the hands of diplomatists ; and the question now was,
not whether we were to abstain from interference with
others, but whether others were not likely to interfere
with ourselves. Had not the case of Holland and Belgium
been instanced as similar to that of England and Ireland ?
And surely when di ctrines of this description were afloat,
they ought to weigh well the danger of parsimonious re-
ductions in the military force requisite for the protection
of their institutions. He gave Government credit for
having been zea'ous in the work of administering justice
between man and man, and cordially congratulated them
on their triumph over an Hon. Member whom he did not
then see in his place; nor did he disapprove of their
policy respecting the a.nount of the army which it ap-
peared they thought it necessary to maintain.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON said he rose for the pur-
pose of defending his country from the unwotthy and
unwarrantable aspersions of the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty, but would first express his dissatisfaction at
the conduct of Government generally, seeing that
they did not carry the principles of non-interven-
tion and economy to the extent which they had
promised. The late Ministers were at least honest,
whatever might be the character of their successors,
for they stood by their declarations, and so standing
they fell,—he wished every one else would do the same.—
(General laughter.)—The Right Hon. Baronet had talked
of inflicting blows on Ireland, because he knew that the
sentiment would be cheered by Whig and Tory as a re-
gular matter of course.—(No, no.)—He only desired to
know from what quarter those cries proceeded, as in that
case.—(Order, order.)—Well, since his present observa-
tions were unpalatable, he would change the subject, and
alvite the gallant Admiral to give the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir J. Graham) a few lessons in nautical phraseology,
which would not only be officially useful in his new situa-•
tion, hut might enable him to employ language intel-
ligible to pain country gentlemen, as he would not in that
case have spoken of " the raising" of the Scheldt when
" the opening" of a river would have been as correct a
mode of expression, if not altogether as elegant.—(Laugh-
ter.)—The Hon. Gentleman then resumed the discussion
of the Union question, which he pledged himself, " by
Him who made the world," should never be suffered to die
away so long as he lived to agitate it. He was repeatedly
called to order for violence of language and personality of
application ; but as the speech, both in matter and man-
ner, was a mere counterpart of those which the same
Hon. Member has delivered on this topic during the last
three weeks, we deem it unnecessary to mention
more than the substance of what he uttered. After
calling on Sir George Murray to bear testimony to the
valour of the Irish soldiers in the continental campaigns,
he demanded to know whether he was to consider-himself
one of the demagogues to whom the First Lord of the
Admiralty had disrespectfully alluded in his remarks on the
agitation of the Union question.
Mr. G. DAWSON then rose, chiefly with a view to
establish the claim of the late Ministers to the character of
an economical Government, which he attempted by read-
ing a list of offices which he produced for that purpose, but
the noise in the House was so great during the few minutes
which he occupied in endeavouring to gain a hearing, that
it would be impossible to detail his items without trust-
ing so much to conjecture as to preclude the probability
of accuracy.

Mr. R. GRANT commenced by assuring the Hon.
Member for Clare that he did not intend to utter a word
or a syllable which could offend him, but he nevertheless
felt it his duty, in the strongest terms, to repudiate the
charge which that Hon. Gentleman had erroneously
brought against his Majesty's Government, who, so far
from delighting in the prospect of civil war as he re-
presented, held it, one and all, in utter horror and de-
testation. He would suppose that the people of Ireland
bad reaped the greatest possible benefits from the Union,
(which he admitted they had not done hitherto), and
that the English, becoming jealous of the advantages
which the sister kingdom thus enjoyed, sought to repeal
that measure ; in such an event, would not the Hon.
Member do his utmost to defend it ? He besought him
then to have patience until the effects of emancipation
should be more fully developed, and not persevere in
attempting to undermine a fundamental law of the empire,
as equivalent advantages in Ireland, he trusted, ere long,
would accrue from its operation. An invidious compa-
rison had been drawn by the Right Hon. Member for Har-
wich between the economy of the present and the economy
of the late Government. He did not pretend to impeach
the accuracy of the voluminous details into which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had entered, for of them he knew
nothing ; but it was impossible for any Member of the
late Government to claim merit for the reductions which
it had made without this consequence following from it,
that greater praise was due to the present Government,
which had reaped such a plentiful crop of reductions
from the field which their predecessors boasted of having
gleaned so closely ?—(Hear, hear.) He could not recon-
cile the first with the last part of the speech which
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had made. In the first
part of his speech he had shown a reluctance to mention
even the name of Belgium; it was with him a certain
country ; but in the latter part of it, be went into all the
doctrine of non-intervention, for the purpose of showing
that we had been guilty of that interference which we de-
precated ; and then the Right Hon. Gentleman wound up
all the eulogium which he made en the late Government of
which he formed a part, by saying, " I don't see, after all,
that the present is so much better than the late Govern-
went."—(Hear, and a laugh.) It was singular enough
that the matters which formed topics of praise on the pre-
sent Government with the Right Hon. Baronet were the
very same matters which formed topics of blame against it
with the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
" In equal parts our guilt arta glory ran,"
for one blamed us for the very conduct for which the other
deemed us worthy of approbation. "Retrenchment,"said
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, " I see nothing like it,
for your estimates are 100,0001. more than the estimates
of your predecessors last year." " Oh," said the Right
Hon. Baronet, " don't go on in that John-Bull mode of
jumbling figures together, without considering what the
figures denote ;" and then, as if he were tired of giving the
Government a lift against the Hon. Member for Middlesex,
he turned round and rebuked himself for his complaisance,
by saying, " Oh, you gentlemen of the present Government
have not reduced the establishments more than we did."
The Right Hon. Baronet then went upon another tack,
and after alluding to the reductions of the Vice-Tre ►-
surer of Ireland, and some other officers, said, " Your
retrenchments are trifling." Trifling were they? Then
why did the House sit up night after night last sessien
contesting about them? Why was the whipper-in--nay,
why were two whippers-in—sent about town to beat up
recruits for their defence? The patronage which the
Bight Hon. Baronet now considered so insignificant, was

not resigned until after a severe struggle maintained, until
• a sues-ssful resistance became hopeless.—(Hear, hear.)
One word on the question of Reform. " Your pledge of
oconomy," said the Hon. Member for Middlesex to the
Governm-nt, "is forfeited—so is your pledge about non-
interference; but there is your pledge about Reform, which
I think, for your own interests' sake, you will redeem."
Now he would ask the Hon. Member whether, if the Go-
vernment redeemed its pledge on that point it would not be
the extinction of any blame which might accidentally be
lue to it on the two other points. Since the Govern-
inent could only do that which it had done badly in
,:onsequence of its having to act with an unreformed Par-
liament, could it win for itself greater praise than this—that
t had put the seal upon the possibility of the commission of
aidh errors in future by taking from itself the support by
which such errors bad hitherto been derended ? He was no
!neinher of the Cabinet—he was therefore unacquainted
with the plan of Reform of which the Noble Paymaiver of
the Forces was to be the propounder : but this he believed,
that every pledge which the Government hid given on the
object of Reform would be redeemed fully and satisfacto-
rily.—(Heir, heat.) If it Lad been guilty of mis-
senduct in its policy hitherto, the country had at least the
!onsolation of seeing that a term was at length fixed to
the continuance of that misconduct.—(Hear.) As to the
subject of notninterference, he would candidly confess that
he had not studied its details with care, and that he was
enacqiiainted with the circumstances of the ne,otiation.
All the confusion which existed upon the subject, appeared
to have been produced by our being mediators between Hol-
land and Belgium. If we were mediators, we must resolve
the question of intermediate boundaries some way or other,
before we could hope to come to any final satisfactory re-
sult. In,conclusion, he called upon the House to give the
present Government fair play. It w s impossible for Mi-
nisters during the short period which they had been in
office to have completed any part of the circuit of improve
ment which it was their determination to run. Let tile
House wait a little longer before it came to a decision on
their merits. It was inconsistent for gentlemen to announce
'n one breath their conviction of the difficult task which
Ministers had to perform in the present circumstances of
the country, and theta to suppose in the next that th y
could set all that was wrong to rights by one single aid
simultaneous effort.—( Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said, that from the strange misrepresen-
tations which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had just
made of his speech, lie was almost tempted to suppose that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not in the House
when he delivered it. What he had said was this—that
he could not rate all the reasons which he had for sup-
porting an increased military force fur the present year, fir
he was not desirous of entering upon topics which might
excite irritation in popular assemblies. He spoke cautiously
and guardedly on the point, for reasons which he was sure
the House would understand without his explaining them
further. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman represented
him (Sir R. Peel) to hire said, that lie was proud to
give his active support to the Government. He (Sir P.
Peel) trusted that he should be ready to support his Ma-
jesty's Government on all occasions. What he said was
this—that if an appeal should be made by the Government
to that House for increased resources to ensure the preser-
vation of the permanent interests and honour of the
country, he should forget all causes of alienation, and
should assist the executive Government with all his power,
in vindicating the honour and safety of the country.
Mr. R. GRANT said a few worels in explanation, but
they were inaudible in the Gallery.
Sir G. MURRAY said, though the Members of the
present Government, 4vlien they were out of office, bad
taunted the Members of the late Government with being
too slow in eff•cting retrenchment, they had not, since
their promotion to office, been more rapid in their march
to it than their predecessors.—(Hear, hear.) Again, when
out of office, they had made declaration upon declaration
against all interference in the concerns of foreign countries;
and yet, now that they were in office, they had been guilty
of as gross intervention as any of their predecessors.--
(Hear.) So, too, on the question of Reform. When
they were on that side of the House on which lie hid the
honour of sitting at present, they had held up to the
country expectations of Reform much more sanguine than
any which they now encouraged.—(Hear, and laughter.)
With regard to the flattering manner in which the lion.
Member fur Clare had spoken of his kindly feelings towards
Ireland, he had only to observe that there was not one
min in that House who did not entertain friendly senti-
ments towards the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He
admitted that he had a warm attachment for Ireland, and
for the people of Ireland, for both deserved it. He was
satisfied that the interests of Great Britain and Ireland
were so united and so inseparable, that it was impossible to
promote the welfare of the one, without promoting at the
same time the welfare of the other. He had, therefore,
heard with regret the expression of civil war used by a
member of his Majesty's Government. It was beyond all
question an unfortunate expression.--(Hear, hear.) He
bad likewise heard with regret a distinction taken by the
First Lord of the Admiralty between the people of Eng-
land and the people of Ireland. He knew of no distinc-
tion between them : he never would admit that any such
distinction had existence. He considered them as one and
the same people, the subjects of a common Sovereign—the
partakers in the blessings of a common Constitution.—
(Hear.) When Hon. Gentlemen talked of the repeal of
the Union between the two countries, he blamed them for
this. If they had brought forward measures for the be-
nefit of Ireland, to which they could never attract the at-
tention of the Imperial Parliament, then they might have
ground for calling for a repeal of the Union; but it appeared
that whenever the name of Ireland was mentioned in that
House, there was an anxious desire among men of all par-
ties to listen with the utmost attention to every plan that
was proposed for the improvement of its condition.—
(Hear.) lie could not, tl seefore, see any grounds for the
endeavours which were now made to prothice a repeal of
the Union,—a measure which implied a separation of in-
terests between the two countries which did not and could
not exist between them.—(Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM asserted that he had never spoken of
the people of England and Ireland as two distinct people.
—(Hear, hear.)—lle could not have made use of such an
expression, as the thought was very far from his mind.
He had said that it was not the people of Ireland who
sought a repeal of the Union, but certain agitators—he
would not repeat the offensive word " demagogues"—
(Hear, and a laugh)—beyond all question sought that ob-
ject by every means in their power.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NORTH said that he rose for the purpose of an-
swering an argument of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite (Mr. R. Grant), which might prove dangerous
in the sister kingdom, if it went abroad with his authority.
" If," said the Hon. Member, "all the advantages which
Ireland expected to reap from the Union had been realised
to the fu:lest extent, and if the people of England had
wished to disunite the two countries, because they had not •
derived the same advantages from it, the necessity of
continuing 'the Union would almost form a justi-
fiable cause of war for Ireland against England."
Now, if this doctrine went abroad with the sanction of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he feaied that the
people of Ireland would reason thus :—That if they had
not reaped from the Union the benefits which they ex-
pected, and if they failed in obtaining from the House a
dissolution of the Union, they would have an equally jus-
tifiable cause of war' in resisting the desire of the people
of England to adhere to that Union.—(Hear, hear.)
When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman rose and touched
upon the speech of the Hon. Member for (Aare, he (Mr.
North) was in hopes that he (Mr. R. Grant) had risen
to do away with the unpleas int effect which had been
caused by the unfortunate expression used by the First •
Lord of the Admiralty. He knew full well, that when
the Right Hon. Baronet spoke of the nation's asserting
its supremacy over Irelanil—(" No, no !)—he was not
aware of the force of the terms which he was employing.
The expression had come on his ears with a jar like a dis-
cord in music ; and somethink spoke to his heart, that a
term had been uttered derogatory from the honour of the
country in which he was born, and in which all the affec.e
times of his heart were centered.
Sr J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman laboured under a strange misapprehension. He
denied that he had ever used the expression of " the su-
premacy of England."—(Hear, hear. ) —What be had said
he was not inclined to retract. He had &Lid, and he re-
peated the expression, that Government was determined
to vindicate the supremacy of the law Over all the agitators
in Ireland.—(Loud cheers from every part of the House.)
Mr. NORTH slid, that nothing could gratify him mere
than the explanation which Lad just been offered to the
House by the First Lord of the Admiralty. It u•as not
necessary for his (Mr. North's) satisfaction—for he knew
that the Right lion. Member meant nothing offensive—
but he knew that a proud and irritable people like tl e
Irish, jealous of national honour, might be offended by it ;
and therefore he was so glad that so mischievous a phrase
had been so readily disavowed.—(Hear.)—The term-,
upon which alone the Union between the two countries
could he preserved, were terms of equal,ty, Ireland claim-
ing and receiving for herself the enjoyment of all the rights
of British subjects, co equal and co-extensive with the
British nation.—(Cheers.)—He should tint add a word
more on the present occasion, as he merely rose for the
purpose of obtaining that explanation from the First Lord of
the Admiralty, which he hoped weiald be asletitaFft.ouray to
.
the people of Ireland, as it had tee!? to
Mr. HUME rose amid loud cries of