The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-16 00:00:00

EXPORTS AND INIPOT:

, .
Mr. Alderman WAITHNIAN rose to submit certain
resolutions of which be had given notice on this subject.
His resolutions were founded upon returns which were
presented to that House. Ever shies he WI-Ivan itt that
House be bad observed the greatest-fidlacies prevail wit!,
respect to the condition of the country. The distress of
the country had -aiw,us been declared to be of a temporary
nature, whilst our exports were referred to as a proof Of
increasing general prosperity. It n,ow began to be ad-
mitted that the distress had assumed a permary;O:character.
It had always been his opinion that this distress was
mainly atiribUtable to the measures adopted with respect
to the currency, b 1 which the burdens of the country had
been doubled. Looking to the acknowledged distresses of
the country, it way the duty of Coat House to consider
`Low far the measures hitherto suggested, such za emigra-
tion, a revision of the poor laws, or remission of taxation,
were calculated to remove them, or afford sul,stantial per-
manent relief. In his opinion they would always prove
abortive, futile, and inefficacious- The disclosures in the
documents which he should have occasima 1,..? produce,
were in themselves so extraordinary and apparently ira,
probable, that he could not help feeling a good deal of
astonishment at the apitthy ecbibited by he' House or
Commons, for *a long series of years, Loader sg e.t.a:urn-
stances ; yet so it was, for no Hon. Member 114 d liLrett-
-fine ever thought of devoting his attention to • their ade-
quate elucidation. For the first five years of the preselit
century, for it was not requisite for him to refer farther back
than the last 30 years, the real value of our exports bad
exceeded the official by 15,000,0001. per annum, and
in 1813 that excess was reduced to 6,000,0001., Whereas in*
1819 there was a depreciation of 10,000,000/, sines
which, there has been a yearly depreciation to nearly the
same aitaanat. The real value in 1803 exceeded the offi-
cial: by 20,000,000/., yet, when they referred to last year,
they would find that it was,
on the contrary, 29,000,0007.-

below it. His Majesty's Speech in 1830 had stated that
the exports of that year exceeded those of all the former
years, than which no assertion, he would venture to assert,
could be more fallacious. How could that be called na-
tional prosperity which gave away annually not less
than 4,500,0001. sterling in the labour of the country
without receiving a single shilling in return? During the
last fiveycars the depreciation amounted to 28,000,000/.per
annum, hart they were told at the same time that the foreign
trade of the country bad increased. It appeared, however,
that during the first 10 years of the last 30, there was a
depreciation, amounting to 15,000,0001. ; and during the
average of the last years preceding 1830, there was a si-
milar depreciation to the amount of 9,000,0001. This
gradual depreciation was certainly a point well worthy the
serious consideration of the House, at a time when it was
proposed to administer relief by a remission of taxes.
To the tax on printed calicoes he for one was not inclined
to object, but the Noble Lord, he trusted, was aware
that such an act must necessarily entail considerable
losses to the amount of 20 per cent., if not absolute
ruin, on all who had stock in hand to any serious amount,
unless they should be afforded compensation for the
injury which the Legislature would otherwise inflict. He
charged the Government, as well as all Governments ge-
nerally, for the last twenty years, with having devised
measures ostensibly to promote the export trade, which
had, nevertheless, quite a,contrary eff,ct. There was to
doubt sufficient property in the country to prevent the ex-
istence of such severe distress as the large body of the lower
classes had so long been enduring, but it was the inequality
of its distribution to which he attributed the privations of
the people. During the ten years which had elapsed from
1808 to 1819, the average real value of the exports had
increased 4,000,500/. per annum, while there was a cor-
responding increase in the population ; but in the ten
years previous to 1830, although the population had then
also proportionally increased, the average real value of the
expom is had actually decreased annually 6,500,0001. At
present, there was no doubt whatever that profits were at
once low, while trade had diminished—two fads, he sub-
mitted, sufficiently formidable to people in business, al-
though no very unfavourable inference could be
legiti-
mately deduced from the existence of either unconnected
with the other. The Board of Trade he bad always looked
upon as one of the greatest nuisances of the country, under
the system of management which had been adopted hi-
therto. Amongst the measures recently brought forward
by Ministers, he regretted to perceive that they intended
to destroy our Canadian timber trade for the purpose of
establishing commercial relations with the Baltic, where
only a very small proportion of our produce (and that
little chiefly colonial) was consumed *; whereas the con-
sumption of British produce was very general in the
Canadas. This might be fully attested by a reference to
our exports of cotton twist, amounting to 5,000,000, of
which eight-tenths at least were exported to America.
The home consumption of the necessaries of life among
the lower and middle classes, he was sorry to find, had
not latterly by any means increased, notwithstanding the
frequent assertions in Royal speeches to the contrary.
He had also to mention what was no less to be lamented,
that the losses on goods exported of late years had fre-
quently been immense. The whole of the Honourable
Alderman's statement may be found to be embodied
in his resolutions. The Honourable Alderman said,
that though he had great confidence in the Noble
Chancellor of the Exchequer individually, in his can-
dour and high-mindedness of purpose—(Cheers)—he
was convinced that the Administration of which he was a
member would lose their hold on public opinion if they
persisted in the present delusive system of export trade.
Ministers might rest assured, that either they must reduce
taxation to existing prices, or raise prices to a level with
our taxes. There was no alternative. As he had stated,
he would not repeat the numerous resolutions of a former
occasion, which had appeared in the public prints, and
to which he had then directed the attention of the House,
but should move one embodying the principle of all.
With this resolution the Hon. Alderman concluded.

Mr. IRVING said, that the greater part of the speech
of the Hon. Alderman had been a recapitulation of inte-
resting returns printed by order of the House, and exhibited
great industry on his part. The Hon. Alderman had re-
lied much upon the difference between real and official
value ; but he should have recollected that the reduction
of taxes and several other causes had contributed to di-
minish the price of every article, and that circumstance
alone was sufficient to account for the difference between
the real and official value in these returns. These causes
acted upon the scale in the ascending and descending line,
so that when prices were high the returned value was
high, and when the prices were low the value in the same
manner became low. _ _ _

, Mr. ,ROBINSON contended, that the Government,
had in their free trade system, began at the wrong end.
It they wished to make the experiment fairly, they ought
first to establish a free trade in corn. There could he
then no objection to a free trade in manufactures ; but,
so long as the absence of prohibition existed towards the
manufactures alone, so long must the experiment be'un-
successful. He expressed himself favourable to a pro.
perty tax, and thought it would be better to impose a
graduated property tax at once, than thus to continue
coldly to tamper with duties comparatively trifling. If
the Noble Lord had the courage—the moral courage—
to propose such a tax, he doubted not he would succeed,
and would be thus enabled to relieve the people from the
burthen of the excise and assessed taxes, and to im.
pose an impost in their stead, which never could press so
severely on the poor. He did not see why the fund-
holders should be exempted from taxation ; and said, that
under the existing state of things, the large fundholder,
either by living in a garret, or in a foreign country,
might altogether avoid contributing to the burthens of
this nation. He also remarked that by the repeal of the
excise and assessed taxes, three millions now expended on
their collection would be at once saved to the people. Ile
anxiously maintained that home and colonial traders
should be encouraged and supported in preference to all
ethers. He disapproved of the diminution of the duty
upon French wines, and suggested the imposition of a
tax on machinery—the improvement in which had, he
stated, thrown vast bodies of men out of employment.
Mr. W. WHITMORE was of opinion that wi re it net
for the great improvement in machinery, we never should
have been able to maintain the struggle with foreign
natims. He did not wish to encourage foreign trade
at the expence of the borne or colonial trader;—
but he thought it better to leave trade alone,
than to place it under the controul of any Mini..
ster, even if he possessed the enlightened views of
the Honourable Member opposite. He was strenuously
opposed to a property tax, and was convinced that
if it were now laid on, the clamour against it would be
ere long greater than that against any tax at present felt
to be oppressive. He agreed with the Hon. Member
that an alteration should be affected in the corn laws—
and a repeal of the monopoly they supported, and all
kindred monopolies. He remarked, that the atnazement
of the Hon. Alderman periodically repeated in that House
respecting the difference between real and official value
might have well ceased before OW, the reasons fur it
beir.g so very obvious. To prove the increase of manu-
factures, it was only necessary to look at the immense in-
crease. in the importation of the raw material k. cotton
within the last fifteen years had increased fraPi 450,000
bales to 800,000 bales, and silk and wool were nearly in
the same proportion. Never was there a pet iod, in 'fact,
when tha manufactures of the country were in a more healthy
state. Only leave men to manage their own interests—only
leave the home, colonial and foreign trades to them-
selves, and there would still be a vast augmentation in
the production of the country. Mystifications like those
attetripte4 by the Lion. Alderman and the Hon. Member
for Worcester alone 9cc,:-.sioned danger and depression.
Mr. MORRISON adverted to the extraordinary theo-
ries broached li, various Hon. Members on all sides ; for
instailcL, Ile lion. Alder man had contended that the
foreign trade of rise ;;opntry was diminishing, and that
taxation was no evil. He rejc.lezd that the currency
question had been set for ever at rest, but the conatoorce of
the country could never be securely prosperous until the
great question of the Corn Lows was finally settled. Hi'
opinion was thi.t. grain should be subject to no tax ; but,
if a tix were impOse4, t ought to be fixed and intelligible.
He believed that at no period since the ileace had trade
been so thriving, and for so long a period as during the lirss;
three years. Ile termed the return to cash payments a
stug oadaots operation, which would never have been
effected ha;; p:;o0's known what they were about; hut
luckily a Minister was fo-,ind hold enough to assert that
twenty-one shillings were equal to tweriti.eiih; shillings,
and a Parliament base enough (he might be allowed to
ap?tili,yi.tal,i,a g
atepit;;lett
tthoethgelodoemady)
vtoielavgsleoef %tsiiiethllboittils. A
.
man and those who iigi,;24 7ith him, he was convinced
that the country' was not on the CYC of der:bate-ion, Many
complained of the weight of taxation, and, no doullt it
wa,a top great, if less would be sufficient -for the .purposed
of the btate; 1;;;t ;11:_3 true reason for reducing taxes
was that Government could
he
carried on without them,
Not-
"
r-
de wand not that the people could not afford to pay them.-
To state that the people could not afford tb pay them,
was only to say that because they only eat bread and cheese,
wants
people o l
they ought not to be taxed, but that if they eat beef and
hsevtaisietrheb
ph:nib-pudding they ought to be taxed. The fact was, the
‘oviodiyildexic)eustehefosrattlaiexewswerethe well State,
oarnil
ill they
The Statute-book contained Acts against the departure of

.. '

mechanics from the kingdom ; but if we could export tilst
machinery itself, it would be just as beneficial a branch of
trade as any other. The existing law against the export
of machinery operated as a bounty to our neighbours and
rivals, and the result was, that France could now manu-
facture machinery as cheaply as Great Britain. If the
Chancellor of the Exchequer were desirous of relieving
the lower orders, let him lower the duties upon tea and
sugar, which now had become necessaries of life, and found
their way into every cottage of the kingdom. To remove
a tax from an article of consumption was to give the con-
sumers the immediate as well as the full benefit ; but to
reduce a tax upon an article of manufacture often only put
an additional and an inordinate profit into the pockets of
the retailers. It was a total mistake to suppose that
taxation raised the price of labour; it raised the price of
the article on which the tax was imposed, but it did not
raise the price of labour. The importation of foreign ma-
nufactures only rook place when they were better than our
own, and articles brought from Lyons, and thought excel-
lent before the late improvements in our silks, would
now hardly be considered fit for wear. The present state
of trade and manufactures warranted the experiment, and
he had no duubt that in three or four years, we might
throw our parts open to all the world, and defy competi-
tion. At present, wherever our manufactures were sent
they annihilated those which were the produce of what was
commonly called cheap labour, and he instanced Mexico
in proof of his position, and he concluded by asserting that
he was in a condition to demonstrate, that the labour of
this country was decidedly the cheapest in the whole world.
Mr. WARD, after thanking the Hon. Member who last
spoke for the information he had given, and after express-
ing his entire dissent from the views of his Worthy Col-
league, begged to repeat a question he had already more
than once put to the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer;
he wished to hear distinctly what part the Governor of the
Bank of England had had in the proposition of the duty
on the transfer of property? It was essential that a right
understanding should exist upon the subject.
Lord ALTHORP—He had stated last night what had
passed between him and the Governor of the Bank of
England, although he bad, in part, been misapprehended.
That gentleman had authorised him to say, that the
measure proposed was perfectly practicable, and that there
would be no difficulty whatever in distinguishing between
transfers of stock for loan, and of stock for sale; that
the duty could, therefore, be easily collected; and that no
bar would be placed in the way of such accommodation
as the Bank had afforded in the year 1825. T-le had not
said, as he had been represented to have said, that the
Governor of the Bank approved generally of the measure.
He (Lord Altborp) had been particularly cautious upon
the point, and all he had stated was, that the Governor of
the Bank thought the plan perfeetly practicable. As to the
general question he would make a few observations, without
pretending to touch the various topics that had been urged.
In reply to the Hon. Member for Worcester, he must ob-
serve, that he never meant to encourage foreign trade at the
expence of the home trade or of the colonial trade ; but he
objected to support colonial trade at the sacrifice of the
home trade. By the alteration of the duty on wine he
hoped to raise a million of revenue, without increasing the
pressure on the consumer. His great purpose had been to
promote the domestic industry of the Empire, and he had
proposed the repeal of the duty on coals, because it pressed
with great severity on the lower orders, while it also checked
the increase of employment. The most effectual mode of
relieving the labouring classes was to furnish them with
work ; there was no room to relieve them by a repeal of
taxes, and he therefore endeavoured to accomplish this end
by promoting different branches of industry. As to the
question of the currency, it was now happily in a healthy
state : to make another change would at least be dan-
gerous, if not destructive. Early in the Session, there-
fore, he had said that it was not his intention to disturb
what was now so well settled. The utmost caution ought
at all times to be used in tampering with the currency.
Mr. HUME took this opportunity of setting the Hon.
Alderman right in what he had advanced regarding the
difference between the real and the official value of exports
and imports. A return on the table, for which he had
moved, showed, that on what appeared 59 millions of
official value, duty had been paid on articles consumed to
the extent of 35 millions, and yet no less than 73 mil-
lions remained to be exported. The fact was, that the
rates of value had been fixed a century ago, and it was
different on the export and import; thus, cassia was va-
lued at Is. 6€l. on importation, and at 2s. on exportation.
For the last twelve years the matter had been well under-
stood to all who had attended to the subject, and he hoped
the time was not far distant when the tables of valuation
would be changed.

Mr. P. THOMSON expressed his acknowledgments to
the Hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Morrison) for the
practical information he had so ably supplied upon these
subjects, and proceeded to observe, that he should move
the previous question upon the resolutions, which the
Hon. Alderman had for some weeks put in circulation,
and which had already occasioned so much discussion.
The Hon. Gentleman had fallen into a great mistake
when he looks to price and not to quality. It was im-
possible for any trade to be, ;9 the Hon. Alderman stated
it to be, carried on with loss. It would be, under
such circumstances, very soon abandoned. It was not
necessary for hint to go further into details, as the
statements of the Hon. Alderman had been so fully denied
by the Hon. Member who had preceded him (Mr. P.
Thomson). He would refer to the statements which had
been laid before the House last year, to show that there
had taken place a very great increase of the consumption,
as well of necessaries and luxuries, as of articles which
are employed in manufactures, within the last two years.
Another fact to which he wished to refer was, that wages
had improved in the manufacturing districts. But he
confessed that the manufactures of cotton were an excep-
tion.—(Hear.)—But he could not admit that their dis-
treas was to be attributed to machinery, farther than as
machinery had rendered their trade one very easy to be
acquire:l. That circumstance had led to an excessive
competition of the people employed in the manufacture,
which was still further aggravated by the numbers of Irish
p ,or, who crowded into the northern districts of this
.
country, and in consequence of the facility with which
they learned some branches of the cotton manufacture,
contributed greatly to bring down the rate of wages.
Mr. WARD rose for the purpose of disproving a state•
ment that hail gone abroad, aff:cting the Governor of the
Bank of England in his public capacity, and which had
just TION been alluded to.—(Order, order.) He earnestly
requested of the House to favour him with its attention
for barely one minute, whilst he should read a paper
which he had that morning received from the Bank, re-
specting what had been said of him in the matter of the
transfer tax. In that paper the Governor of the Bank
distinctly states that "he never was applied to for an opi-
nion respecting the propriety or impropriety of the pro-
posed tax upon transfers—(Hear, hear)—he had made
himself responsible only for his opinion, that if the tax
were imposed, its c,Rection was practicable. lie had left
the imposition of the tax to the Noble Lord's own discre-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) But, for his own part, lie (the
Governor of the [link) would give all due assistance to
his Majesty's Coves fluent, whether it was composed of
Whigs or of Tories. Having been applied to on the sub-
ject of the transfer tax, by a person unconnected with the li
Government, he had given his decided opinion against the
measure."—(Hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD said, that the communication re-
ceived by the Hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the
House, was perfectly in accordance with what the Noble
Lord had already stated.—(Hear, hear.) As to what
had been said of the improved condition of the country,
he would say that it had been ever the practice of suc-
cessive Administrations to delay the application of effec
tual remedies to the distresses of the country time after
time, upon the plea of recent improvement. There never
was a thue, be the distress what it might, but the Go-
vernment of the day were aisle to show, from Treasury
and Custom-house returns, that the country was in a state
of improvement—(Hear)—and those returns were always
referred to, as if they proved a general, and mot merely a
partial, improvement—if they did redly move improve-
ment at all.—(lfear.) He hoped the House would pass
a resolution, forbidding any Member of the Ministry to
read a return from the Treasury or Custom-house, to
illustrate the improving condition of the people, without
paying the penalty of reading immediately afterwards
some petition of the people, in order to show whether they
agreed with the Ministers respecting their condition,
which they would certainly be allowed to know best.—
(Hear, and laughter.) The same observation would apply
;:o the epeech of the Hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Mor-
rison), who had attempted to contradict the statement of
the people themselves respecting their own state.
Mr. T. P. COURTENAY did not understand the
Right Hon. the Presi4ent of the Board of Trade to make
a general statement of national property ; but he thought
with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the documents
upon the table of the House bore him out in the assertion
that the condition of the country had been in a state of
grade 11 improvement for the last two years. Before lie
sat down, he would take that oppo:tunity of assuring the
llon. Member for Middlesex, that if he brought forward
any measure respecting the corn I.lws, he should not find
til,,iill,c(!tA so
ulrmr:Ccigolou lamented een,natihv),:tu lling, at least, to con s id e r it.
d
--(hear, hear.)—He would raesniimindpotshseib Ilefotno. Gineanitriletamhaina,
s.iii;
Wlowness of the prices of ma-

•
high puce and to promote extensive exportation to fereign
countries.—( Hear. )
Mr. HUNT, notwithstanding the great research of the
Hon. Alderman who had brought forward the motion,
could not have understood the subject from what
the Hon. Alderman bad said. He could have
understood but little of it, had it not been for
the clearness with which the Hon. Member for Bridg-
north (we understood Mr. Hunt to say) had spoken upon
But the corn laws, to which allusion had been
made, were a subject with which he was better acquainted.
He had always been hostile to them, and he agreed with
an Hon. Gentleman near him, that nothing would be set-
tled in the affairs of the country, until those laws were
abolished. He admitted the truth of those statements
which showed that the country was wealthy whilst the
mass of the population was exceedingly poix.—
(Hear, hear.)—Amongst the luxuries--of which an
encreased consumption was shown by the documents
alluded to—tea was one of the most prominent.
He denied that an encreased consumption of tea
was any proof of the encreased comfort of the
people.. He knew many a cottage in which tea
was used, and with, perhaps, sometimes sugar, in
which there was at the same time the most miserable
want, squalidity, and rags.—(Hear, hear.)—He did
not mean to coneleinn the use of tea. It was a most
pleasant and refreshing—indeed, a most bewitching
beverage.—(Laughter.)—Yes, lie would give it a con-
trary character to that which he had given tobacco.—
(Hear, and laughter.) When he heard the improved wages
in the manufacturing districts spoken of, he was prepared
to admit that in one branch—even of the cotton manufac-
ture—the workmen (cotton spinners) earned from 16s. to
255. per week at present. But how was that ? They
were compelled to work sixteen hours a day, the effect of
which was that they seldom lived beyond forty years.—
His business led him into more than six thousand shops
within the bills of mortality, and never, since the memory
of man, were those tradesmen in such deep distress.—
(Hear.) Many of them were on the verge of the work-
house.—( Hear. )
Mr. MORRISON explained.
After a few words from Sir W. Jonsisow, Mr. EWART,
and Mr. T. MARTIN,

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN rose to reply, contending
that the distress at present prevailing was exceedingly great•
In one parish with which he was acquainted, containing
800 houses, 200 householders were summoned for the
payment of poors'-rates within the past year. As to the
facts that he had stated in his first speech, not one of them
had been disproved. He had been referred to official ac-
counts. He had established his positions upon the most
impregnable grounds. Some Hon. Membeis had thought
proper to tell him to come forward with some specific
measure—that was not his business ; let them but place
him in the situation of Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
and they would soon find that he should bring forward
something definite and specific.—(A laugh.) Much had
been said, he observed, respecting the silk trade and its
alleged improvement, that be begged altogether to deny.
The resolutions of the Hon. Alderman were then put
and negatived without a division.
APPRENTICES' LABOUR REGULATION BILL.

Mr. HOBHOUSE rose to move for leave to bring in a
Bill for the better regulation of the hours during which
apprentices should be employed. The Bill which he should
then have the honour of submitting to the House, was one
which he had every reason to suppose would meet the
views of all the master manufacturers, and that they
would most readily concur in it. It was their opinion,
and it was also the opinion of all with whom he had an
opportunity of communicating, that the measure of which
he contemplated the introduction would put an end to the
system of immorality and of cruelty, which now unfortu-
nately prevailed to a very distressing extent. He had been
informed by master manufacturers, that unless the legisla-
ture interfered effectually to alter the present working
hours of apprentices in the cotton factories, the large
establishments could no longer compete with the poorer
ones. The first alteration which he proposed to make in
the existing law, was to extend the protection afforded to
apprentices from the age of sixteen—the period at which
they ceased to become objects of care to the law—to the
age of eighteen. At present, the hours of work were, in
fact, twelve. They spent thirteen hours and a half from
the commencement of their daily labour till its close—
within which they were allowed one hour for dinner, and
half an hour for breakfast. That he conceived to be too
little ; and he should accordingly propose to limit the
period of active employment to eleven hours and a half;
for he thought—and the masters agreed with him—that
for persons under the age of eighteen, eleven hours and a
half were as much labour in the course of the twenty-
four hours, as they ought to be subjected to. The House
had always recognised the principle, that it was the right
and the duty of the legislature to interfere in these matters;
and he was sure the more it was looked into and examined,
the more the advantage and necessity of it would be found
apparent.
Mr. FYLER seconded the motion.

Mr. HUME objected to any general prohibition of
working during the hours of the night. If any such regu-
lation was contained in the proposed Bill, he should cer-
tainly oppose it.
Mr. SADLER gave the proposed measure his most
cordial anent.

Lord MORPETH observed, that it was called for
loudly with the masters and the operatives.
Mr. LITTLETON also gave the Bill his support.
Leave given to bring it in.
BUCKINGHAM PALACE.—WINDSOR CASTLE.

Lord ALTHORP brought up papers relating to the
New Palace, in St. James's-park, and the cost of the fur-
niture of Windsor Castle. These having been read and
laid on the tattle, the Noble Lord proceeded to say, that
when be first ca he into office, he found a great number of
papers on the subject of those buildings, setting forth
many and urgent complaints of non-payment—they stated
that large sums of money were due to them, and that, in
consequence, they were suffering great distress. The ob-
vious cause of this was, that the estimate had been greatly
exceeded. The original estimate for Buckingham Palace
amounted to 496,0001., which estimate had received the
sanction of Parliament ; the expenditure to Midsummer,
1830, was no less than 576,353/. A further sum of
3,1101. had been granted upon official responsibility, which
left the whole excess over the estimate somewhere about
76,000/. It was calculated, that by the sale of machinery
u-ed in the building, and of rejected materials, there would
be realised a sum of 5,0001., leaving the net excess 71,000/.
As to the state of the works at the New Palace, it was
indisputable that they were not at all so far advanced as
to render that building habitable, or anything approach-
ing to a habitable state. The estimate of what remained
to be done was very considerable; the estimate made by
Mr•. Nash of works not yet begun amounted to 21,0001.,
and of works commenced under the orders of the late King
and not included in the foregoing calculations, the esti-
mated cost was 25,000/., and that also was exclusive of
4,000/. for the garden. Thus, then, there were 121,000/.
still to be provided. It would of course be not at all
fair towards Mr. Nash, to say that his estimate had
been exceeded to any thing like that sum; in fact,
it had not been exceeded more than about six and
forty thousand pounds. Under the circumstances
which he hail stated, it became necessary for the House
to see what course it would be proper to pursue,
In his opinion, and he thought the lion. Members would
concur with him, that opinion was, that the most expe-
dient mode of proceeding would be to refer the whole mat-
ter to a Select Committee.—(Hear.) The expence of the
furniture of Windsor Castle was the next subject to which
he wished to direct the attention of the House, and which
he thought ought to be referred to the Committee, of which
he meant to propose the appointment. The original esti-
mate for the furniture of Windsor Castle was 143.0001.
The bills for it amounted to 203,9601. A Right Hon
Gentleman opposite said, that he would not pay any sum
beyond 35,0001. until that bill should have been examined
and looked into. The excuse offered by the tradesman
who made the estimate, and who so far exceeded it for this
furniture, was, that it was so extraordinary and unusual,
that it became impossible for him to form a correct esti-
mate of its cost. The excess in that case amounted to
61,9601. ; with reference, then, to this matter, there
were 269,000/. provided for by Parliament, and 295,0001.
for which no provision had been made. From all this, it
appeared to be a case which absolutely required being re-
ferred to a Committee to inquire how this expenditure had
been incurred. Lie certainly was bound to say that no-
thing could be more handsome than the manner in which
Windsor Castle had been furnished, and it was, therefore,
difficult for tradesmen exactly to estimate the expence of
such furniture. This might, perhaps, be a reason to in;:
duce the Committee to declare that the charges were not
unreasonable ; but, at all events, he thought that, before
the House could vote the money, there ought to be an in-
quit y into the circumstances.—(hear, hear.) lie there-
fore moved that the papers should be referred to a Select
Committee. .

Colonel SIBTIIORPE should take the sense of the
House as to suspending the works at Buckingham-house
and Windsor Castle, till they had ascertained the capabi-
lity of the people of this country to maintain those exor-
bitant demands, which he must designate as unwarran-
table luxuries and superfluous extravagance.--(Hear.)
Mr. HUNT stood up for the people of Eng Lind ; and if
the House agreed to a Select Committee, he trusted that it
would be such a one as would satisfy the public. The

countryprnfi profligate,
t we, win
nmneuncehaaianrdye,hatnedd teoxtthraevPagraensst
ef;peundlit
if the country had been in the greatest state of p -
he should protest :against the payment of any P
the charge till the whole had been investigated
thing,lius e . all
He himself bad long ago described it at a public
as a mixture of mud and magnificence ; besi4eB
(mHaenakr, ,i
nhdeahr hear.)
unanimously With r regard ddtoe c
itdheed t sou
pte.o
was built in such a way, that if any of the faintly
out at the windows they could see nothing but fit
lic-houses. Never had there been such a
bpeafyo. rfenr;
ita,ohdenopwrottheaattedthere
against AV a 2toheo,opoaClyi. t i
thedi'
1 shilling, till the House was fully informed of '''''
the charge.
Colonel DAVIES reminded the House that tbe
Lord could not have made a more popular POP"
' that of the appointment of this Select Coralnittee.
Mr. HUME asked if they were to be called on Ye.t
year to examine the estimates of overrun and ul'iuo'
expenditure, where the duties of the House Wejt,o 1
If any individuals had incurred this expe.nse vi'—‘,°
ing the sanction of Parliament for it, let then pt
—(A laugh, and hear, hear.) If the late gATtioreg
taken it on themselves to direct a larger exPellu-ort
the House had sanctioned, he thought that 7-,,, 11
ought to be made of it, and that they should be ;de
to pay. The only question was, whether the they
bad received orders or not ? If they had oot, :17' d
pay for it ; if they had, those who bad given --e

were responsible. -
Mr. HUDSON GURNEY had heard the 0°..,r n.
her for Middlesex say that he wished that a Pr°r-
.

should be built for the King of England. bed
Mr. HUME certainly had said that be "1: t
Palace should be built once for all ; but tba
quired that the plans and estimates should be ..18400
Parliament, and that there should be no devP;the
them. When Lord Goderich was Chancellor of the
chequer in that House, he rose on the occasioo
and pledged himself that there should be no erj
estimates, and he (Mr. Hume) had said over on"
thst IP
that the Noble Lord ought to be impeached is
for the excess which had taken place. '1
Sir J. SEBRIGHT was of opinion that eto.-9
were so greatly exceeded, the House was bounufli
inquiry by whose authority it had been done•-• eee,
He entertained a moat unfeigned respect for the el
and its dignity, but he must say, that these esr-,:yi
done more to give the people a dislike not only Or 000
titular individual, but for the monarchical forroefjeli
meat itself, than any speech that had ever beet!,° f
Mr. GOULBURN concurred in the Wit- reo.,
Noble Lord, at the same time he could not ne'r,rooll
ing, that he thought the Hon. Member for 06,4'141
(Sir J. Sebright) had gone rather far in prooeetl;
thr character of the expenditure, as it Wes Vino-
Bible that he could be acquainted with the factet.; of
In the paper that had just been laid on the to

House:
0t
Sir J. SEBRIGHT had only made a stateolAe 14witi
supposition that the orders had gone beri:eg Pi
been sanctioned by Parliament; and it wai '-tbtre
that those estimates had been exceeded, and 04.. h.
been a most shameful and scandalous waste of
money.—(Hear, hear.)

ad 9'

After a few words from Mr. GOULBUO
SIBRIGHT,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was sure that hie lip:ii
bad not been expressing any opinion as to anY2e,:,iilel
but only with regard to the system that had P.r,-,114 ' t
,
exceeding the expenditure that had been "4"-hil,e
house: and as to that, he thought that there Ou rP'
one opinion in the House.—(Cheers.)--Thatter e
was a most improper one, and showed that 0-ot it,
to be laid down a fixed rule which should Prevideiofd.,r,
murrence—(Hear)—by doing which they NOutyto t.
be acting better, and better discharging their du ,e3ri
constituents. In the Committee appointed It'
a'iti,
respect to Windsor Castle, when theme was 3 gpood
recommending a vote of 100,0001., it W39l,eat)<:
70,0001. had already been expended--(Hear, Poiisl'''
in consequence remarks, in which the late o.'l, tbe,
had assisted, had been drawn up, and inserted lj vs .!
port; and he thought that if that was refetr'eerli
might find some sort of guide for their future Pr 0 1)
In that report it was proposed that before a_ sec(
work should be commenced there should be a3Pteoefi
laid before that House, together with a yearly 'tte,
how much had been laid out, whether the e't io
tot 11
been exceeded, and what was the probable O' '''
• hi d
would be required to complete the work , ph .
means Parliament would not be voting 1104, ii e'
but be enabled to see their way before then', -oto ri
reject the vote as too expensive, or if theyel3°'elmed'
i
be able clearly to see what the amount of the e',‘ if I
would IP. With respect to the furniture (Soptli,i
Castle, they had not been able to find out h°W.. totl,
been expended beyond the vote of Parliamefic,"oo€ll
therefore, rejoiced at the appointment of this oe
because it would enable Parliament to come to i

cision on the subject. C"°;:
Mr. CALCRAFT was the Chairman of the d ,$ t
that had been just referred to by the Noble Lor ;$ll
agreed that the paragraph in the report that iss,l
mentioned would be of assistance in the fettirefsV
ment of such votes. With respect to the furniture °a I,V
Castle, it was true that a conversation bad.tak, ese
the subject ; but it was held that it formed ista'c
the duty of that Committee to inquire minutely Wet'
Mr. LABOUCHERE had no objection to 3 pier,
in favour of Winibor Cast'e; but with respect t°,,(l
ham Palace he hal quite a different feeliurgs-,elo
hear.) If, however, he understood the Noble.'- • °f
there was to be no farther expense incurred tnereo:o
all events, the works, for the present, were 01014
Lord ALTHORP (as we understood him) i°:oct
all the works were suspended at Buckinghs 0 7(sel
Mr. GOULI3URN was sure that the NO 'bdP,
do him the justice to bear out his position when, tiis
that the moment it was known at the Treisaur'tee'''
estimate had been exceeded, that moment were
e"
put a stop to. had b,
Mr. CUST said, that any gentleman who
Buckingham Palace would soon sea that one ,ber
there had been so great an expense was because
no cne to controul the architect. of br
Mr. CAMPBELL said that on the accessio°p.sot"
sent Majesty, it had been stated that an openitigesft,„e' 't
made from \Vaterloo-place into St. Jamea9l,en
now, however, wished to ask, whether thePt? tiej
Sion was not likely to be altogether disappaiuttd trot p's
Lord ALTHORP was afraid that he cot °,
very satisfactory answer : but what be knes
state. The works were in such progress that sieeio
the plans and drawings ; but he believed that:i,
eulties arose front the owners and occupier' °' 11°
Carltou-gardens. bee„ iv,o
Lord LOWTHER said that there ha l sit?
which had been objected to ; but when he (I.ol'
he had left a plan in the office to which tl:ere ° As'
objection or difficulty.
oeso,l
Mr. HOIIHOUSE said that this discuss'" i)
tisfactory to the House, would at least be 90 Leditii
try ; for the admissions made by the Noble, er tai
the Noble P 9 master of the Forces, togetly",,
little responsibility which attached to those °,oge9
public purse, must show that some new 51r,00tiord
these matters was necessary. And it w"s
quisite to wait for the decision of the Ccu°l;ile;
House to come to the opinion that the I°,ll,
roost grossly abused by the manner in wine rot
diture had been heretofore conducted. It •er
observed that there was no controuling P°stlie
architect. But was this understood wht,, 00040
required at the hands of Parliament SIV° 01
that the demand for that grant was a were esCr
only received as might suit the abstird'io 00011"
bizarre, and ridiculous taste of any perso"ll,xoele •of.;
the superintendence of the work ? The
verb to
told them that the orders for the furniture,e ;$10.00;
vagant and unheard-of that no tradesma° ttis.:sg•
mate their expellee; and now that the t",coo°)joifi,
it appeared that there was no one to be 00
the fact. The Right Hon. Member for
Mkt
handsomely said, "If there is any blame, is adopt,
amongst us; but I do not think that thellootie„s
si
But he begged to ask that Right Hom enjt
simple question. Had there not been a gre Pig], tot
the amount of the estimate ? And if t be 'll'OJ rt
Gentleman allowtd that, he ought also t° eoeit f
them on whose responsibility he had listiootel fare
(Hear, hear.) Nor was this merely a Pled sti' oat
shillings, and pence. It ought to he Carreare'l
for on Mr. Nash's own testimony it 90 „ee
expenses had been incurred " in conseque'srtj 11 tb~
of his Royal Patron and Master :lie "
own words.__ hear, hear.) lf, them foureitopaa e
tt
lie wanted to know how there had been this 51,
rea,ly to pander to such commands? ,
sea
came a serious constitutional questio";_otioo',fitek
that as such it would meet with full o'o sppolceotr;
true that a set of commissieners had baede they
what was it that they had done ? radio I'l° ti
any expense? Had they placed any rest "00000
operations of the architect? He ha das a iie °lelf
thing—so that, in fact, they only figure ~11.
of gentlemen, who had done iwthing atoo °I
however, that the House of Cumulous is'

Press for notil
vagant espendit
tatest state of p .
tyment of anYap,
been investig teu
Tani to
decided
taste
usly deo
d it at a publicbeside'
cence ; ..
f the faintly
lay ° but 6161
nothing b ..t
.n such a iniserabl
a too 11:1
200,00
of
of ,
the paYm tpi
informedof the i

the
he House that
e popular` l7
elect Conel _
Or'
to be called ou
.r.t
overrun an ss
the House :eeitthout
his expense
• it, let thetn...l)::
f the late 3illore
larger ell)01(i
short
thought that .
they should be e 41,1
whether the ,ttpra:
hey had DA loi
io had given

• 2
d heard the - g p
rr
hed that a props
(gland. ished
Itk
R that be that I
all ; bu be
es should Seliatiea
uld of th,
es Chancellor a
i the occas cog►
)uld be n°t
ever
said
over a° bat
,
impeached
ace.

nion that when estl
4
'se was bound °el
been done.--1./e
respect for the
that these epell'e!
like not only for 104
f
,archical form 6°;,l
had ever been dell':
o{in the ;notion
could not bele;
ember for flert!or
far in pronouocill
as it was quite 10
with the fade Otit
laid on the table ip

wade a statetnent ,°rit
gone beyondV
"'d4,
md it Nvaq Well
'eded, and tbat there,
lons waste of tbe P
cir
GouLnutts and

are that his goo.io ,1(
•d
on as to any
a that had preq
'Y
had been voted oe,
t that there coold 011.
;peers.)--That P
bowed that theret iv
(..h should preve°,, is!
lid) they would 1" t,'
'gill their tintYst°r,(.
appointed last YeEw
:bete was a il°°''d
OW., it Was idurP);.
led—(Hear, 131;0:
the late 111 r.•
and inserted in the ;'
j te,,!
iat was referre.,,,
their future
that before aOY
!re should be 0 :lief'
pith a yearly 'tt°tete!
rhether the estot r
probable 001 Y,
h d
the work ;
voting moner
before them, a° el
,r if they chosee e Oodi.
.count of the
e furniture o) och,
) Jim] out holy ØOJ,
of Parliament
talent of this 0" e
001
lent to crane t°

airman of the w•
Noble Lord 1
he report that
bso,
in the future °P,.,
the furniture 0 to,
ation had take) 17,
iat it formed 00
luire minute/f i!lt011
objection to a lihe4
with respect to f3``(f
nferent feeliog.'"Nif
,d the Noble La-
P
e incurred there; d,
sent, were suspedes
rstood him) °liger''
luckinghtt n I'Bl
'at the Noble Lor
position when bei
It the Trefoil! . t'
)
moment were the

beeo
Zeman who had op,
sec that one 113,,ii
e was because

the accession (100
hat an opeajeg,,,flP)
St. Jameacefr
tether the p"?
!r disappsintejnti)
that lie coos' licitti
that he hoe7be"
progress that oje
believed that #°ooo4
of
d occupiers
01°
»4
there hail —ittr1
t when he 1 tO
which there ,
;ifus discussiooP.eit
hot iorj.kfl
y the Nobie voiv
trees, togethei.fd;lol
ml to those vinti"ge°3o
ine new I° r„og Of;
Lnd it wall °lee Ave
if the COlOl, Ave
hat the e',.''sble
ter in I,vliicod vier
icted. It I° 0
ntrouliog P°/,,
;toad what
nt ? Was sr„
Tits a mere 61:04
.he absurd, 'op
y person %fib% A,
? The IN °giro Oor
e furniture 11 oig Jo
lidesuaau to‘a
bat the 1131°P -.0"
ee-
ine to be
her for I,b
iy blame, le; 01 0
that ther.oloo A
tit rIon• :oce,
been a gto9.
tnd if the„ sble,
tilt
ht also to u'initteuooo
he had Per oil)
,tioo for-
rely a ciu! d 01
obe Carrie aleoi
iy it sPre3,r.: of° r4l
consequer'd
r :" he use we' 10011
a
then, tbo
pa
tad be f.°,,u;sll°PetrOr
,ds? In
be it
luestion ; '6OO,
.4
h full atter' poiog7o4.
had been aP co°
,? //ad theroa 09,0,
any restrietli
r:le had beer' d;let
figured oe tje" v
;hing at
mons Wow