The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-21 00:00:00

SICILY.

Mr. BANKES wished to draw the attention of the
Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary to a portion of a
letter, addressed by the Noble Lord, to the Hon. Wil-
liam Temple, at Naples, on the 26th of January, 1849.
The paragraph ran thws :—" It is possible that the
Neapolitan Government may complain to you of this trim
saction (assisting the Sicilians with arms), on the,
ground that, although no direct assistance was furnished
by the Government to the Government of Sicily, yet
facilities were afforded to the contractor, who had en-
gaged to supply that Government with arms, and in case
that representation should be made, you will say that
the authority in question was given inadvertently, that
Government regrets what has occurred, and that a simi-
lar facility will be given to the contractor for furnish-
ing the Government of Sicily with arms, while the
differences between Sicily and the kingdom of Naples is
unsettled?' Now, first of all, he wished to ask the Noble
Lord whether this letter was to be taken as the letter,
which he presumed it to be, sent by the Noble Lord 'with
the authority of the united Government of the Crown;
and, secondly, he must ba allowed to ask him at what
time it was that the insurgents of Sicily were recog-
nised by the Government of Great Britain as being
the Sicilian Governmentf—,at what time it so com-
menced, to recognise them, and up to what time did
that recognition continue.
Lord PALMERSTON said, in answer to the
question of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man, he had to state that the letter was sent
not only by the authority of the united Govern-
ment of the kingdom of Great Britain, but by the
authority of the united Government of the
United Kingdom.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) With
regard to the second question, he had to state that the
existence of a Government in Sicily, acting and
administering the affairs of that island, was acknow-
ledged by the Government as early as the beginning
of last year, when the kingdom of Naples requested
Lord Minto to place himself in communication with that
Government for the purpose of effecting an amicable
settlement of the differences between the two parties,
and from that time to the present Government had re-
cognised that as the Government of Sicily.
Mr. BANKES would be glad to know if her Majesty's
Government recognised the Sicilian Government as dis-
tinct and separate from the Government of the kingdom
of Naples ?

Lord PALMERS'I'ON said there was no doubt of the
fact that there was a Sicilian Government for the go
vernment of the affairs of Sicily, and that there was a
Government de facto in Sicily it was impossible to deny,

FRENCH POSTAGE.
An 110 N. MINDER asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury whether any proposal had been made by the Go-
vernment of France to reduce the rate of postage be-
tween France and this country ; and if so, whether
there would be any objection to lay the correspondence
which may have taken place on:the subject before the
House.

Load J. RUSSELL said A nrgoriat:on gc:inr;
or, in reference to this subject, but the curzeipondecce
not y( t been brought to a close.

CEYLON.

Mr. MACGREGOli,;;eingthe Hon. Gentleman the
Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his place, he wished
to ask him if it was true that the Government of Ceylon
were about to establish a Government debt, and that they
intended to take the funds of the savings' banks
and other public funds for the immediate use of the
Executive.

Mr. HAWES said there was no foundation for the
report, though it was true that such a report had got
aliroad in Ceylon.

SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, and on the vote of 350,0001 on account of the
Navy Estimates for the maintenance of artificers and
labourers in the naval establishments being read,
Mr. FITZROY submitted to the House that there was
no plausible pretext for pursuing that course at the pre-
sprit moment, and that it was extremely undesirable to
take those grants out of the ordinary course.
Mr. HUME said it would be desirable to know what
proportion of sash vote was now to be taken. He should
object to any further vote of that kind, for it was an
invasion of the ordinary practice.
Mr. WARD said he had no desire to shirk any dis-
cussion on the subject.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY was understood to say_ he
objected to taking those grants out of the ordinary course.
He would not state the reasons then for taking that
course, but he should do so on a future occasion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made an
observation, wholly inaudible, explanatory of the reason
why the grant had been taken out of the ordinarycourse.
Mr. HERRIES did not understand the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he per-
fectly agreed with his Hon. Friend Mr. Fitzroy, who
had raised an objection of that kind. Ile thought this
was a most unfavourable moment for passing this vote
on account, considering that some greater vigilance ought
to be exercised with respect to the public expenditure
before votes of this description were allowed on account.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that although he thought
this course objectionable, yet under the circumstances
it was the best course to be pursued at the present
moment.

Captain PECHELL thought the course proposed in
voting money on account an extremely inconvenient
one. Why, he would ask, should not the estimates have
been brought forward at an earlier period of the session?
If the lion. Member for Lewes would resist this mode
of proceeding at a future period, the Government would
find that the present would be the last time that it
would be allowed to take place.
After a few words from Mr. FITZROY,
Th• vote was then agreed to, as were also 350,0001.
for Naval Stores, 500,0001. for Half•pay, 200,0001. for
Military Pensions and Allowances, and 100,0004 for Civil
Pensions and Allowances.
The House then resumed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
_ _

In reply to a question from Mr. HUME,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that it was the intention
of the Government to proceed with the Navigation Bill
upon Monday and Thursday next.
POOR-LAWS (IRELAND) RATE IN AID.

Upon the motion for going into Committee upon this
Bill,

Mr. SADLEIR rose and said he would state as briefly
as possible some of the considerations which had induced
him to resist the proposition which had been brought
forward by the Government, to raise a certain sum of
money for the relief of distress in certain districts of
Ireland, under the name of a rate in aid. He re-
gretted to perceive, from the observations addressed
to him last evening by the Noble Lord, that he was
disposed to re-echo the clap-trap and, as he must
think, mist unjust cry of those few Members who
were fir' favour of the Ministerial project. It
had been stated, most unfairly and unjustly, that
the majority of the Irish Members, Isiy opposing the
proposition, placed themselves in the position
of men who were prepared to pass a sentence of death
upon a large portion of their fellow-countrymen. He
was convinced that it was not only an unjust and delu-
sive proposition, but that it was calculated to
extend the circle of destitution and suffering,
which he was sure the Noble Lord was anxious
to alleviate, and as far as possible to reduce.
The tenant occupier stood at present in at position which
made him wholly dependent on the landlord, and it
was futile to expect that any advantages to be de-
rived from a good harvest could ever place him
in the position which the Noble Lord had pointed out.
Now it should be recollected that this rate in
aid would fall with no sort of equality upon the
different parts of the country. Ulster, for
instance, would have to pay a great deal more
to such a rate than Munster, or any other province in
Ireland. He did rejoice that the Government had
brought before the House the revolting state of destitu-
tion that prevailed in the province of Connaught, but
he regretted that whilst doing so, they had not
produced the evidence which the Government possessed
respecting the state of the whole of the la bouring popu-
lation. He was desirous especially, for instance, that
the state of the distressed unions, as they were called in
Leinster and Munster, should have been more fully laid
before the House. The Honourable Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to cite instances of that distress int several unions.
In the Queen's County the distrese was of the
same character; there the clothing of the farraers was
made up from rough frieze cloth, while that
of the peasantry consisted of nothing but rags
and tatters. In Tipperary, which had been for centuries
known as the " golden green," the only pawnbroker of
the union stated that during the last two years nothing
in the shape of clothing or wearing apparel now
formed a part of his pledges, and lie represent.a
that the clothing of the p....iltry- w.. nothing
but a mass of rags, which requirml the utmost
ingenuity to keep together. How could they hope, then,
that the farmers would be able to pay th4:s rate ? There
could be no hope of it; and he was wiry much afraid
that, instead of relieving Ireland, this measure would
have the effect of throwing those who were at present in
work out of employment and increasing the prevalent
distress. But some Honourable Gentlemen had
had the folly to describe the opposition to this
motion as one of a sectarian and religious
character, and as an . effort on the part of the
Protestants of Ulster to exonerate themselves from the
liability of assisting to alleviate the destitution
and distress in their country ; but that could
not possibly be the case, because the greater part of the
Members in that House who represented constituencies
in the north of Irelaid were Catholics, and therefore
it was a most unjust statement which had been put for-
ward, with the view of advancing some pr ejudice in favour
of those cbjections among the uneducated ins isses inlreland.
Hon. Gentlemen should also bear in mind the principle
on which that rate in aid was to be levied as a tax. It was
to be levied on a valuation which was not uniform—not
uniform even in any one union throughout Ireland, and
the practical effect of that would be, that whilst the mere
comfortable classes in some districts would not
practically pay 2d. in the pound, otlers would be
paying 6d. in the pound, because every Honour-
able Gentleman at all acquaint ed with the
principles on which the poor- law valuation
was carried out in Ireland, must know perfectly well
that a sixpenny rate in aid might be it sixpenny rate
in aid in one district, but would not amount to 3d. or 4d. in
other districts better circumstanced and. better able to
bear any additional impost at this moment.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord contrasted the very small amount
of the poor-rates in the fair and prosperous localities of
Ireland with the poor-rates levied in so Lose of the worst
localities in England. He (Mr. Sadleir) did not think
that was a fair inference, because in marey of those dis-
tricts the poor-law had been kept down by the resident pro-
prietors in those districts. The principle -of remitting the
arrears of poor-rates was similar to remitting arrears of
rent in cases of estates in Ireland adiriinistered under
the Court of Chancery, and equally mischievous.
The proposition was delusive with referer tee to the people
of Ireland, and delusive also to the Eng fish people, and
their representatives in that House. If the Government
would state frankly and boldly the social position of all
classes in Ireland, from the mass of intern laden they were
furnished with— if they did:so it would only be a calcu-
lation of figures to show that it was delusive to suppose
that any sum they might advance would put a
stop to the famine and starvation that was exist-
ing in Ireland. The Government bad information
which showed them that in the most fruitful parts of
Ireland, men were dying of starvation. In consequence
of the failure of the potato diet in .Munster they
were now obliged to live upon to rnipa—(Hear,
hear)—and he believed it only required about six weeks
of that diet to kill an able-bodied man. 'Vne Noble Lord
had represented the project as a cure of a n acute evil—
that acute evil was the starvation of the people of Ire-
land. He utterly denied that this sum was sufficient
to preserve the poor of Ireland from nary a tion.—(Bear.)
It had been said that some districts in :Ireland had re-
pudiated their just liabilities to the Imperial Ex-
chequer—that they had not repaid the Lulus of money
which had been advanced for the E rection of poor-
houses, and that that evidenced a natural desire
in Ireland as to the repudiation of the debt.—(Hear.)
He considered that no case had been madee out to justify
that assertion, and he utterly denied that any district had
been guilty of such a repudiation. IL,I exertion had
been made in Ireland, such that the history of nations
would never present anything analogous to it, which had
contributed vastly more than any mea's'ure emanating
from the Treasury benches to preset fee life in that
country, While acknowledging with gratitude the ad-
vances made to them, they had merely ark ed as a favour
that the period for the repayment of the instalments
should be extended, but intimation was g-i,een them that,
as their resources were not entirely exhales ted, their ap-
plication could not be complied with. The farmers in
Kent, however, were treated differently when they ap-
plied for an extension of the time for the ¶payment of the
hop duties, and their request was atter .c'ed to, as they
had a right to expect it would be, in consequence of the
circumstances of the country.—(Hear,; hear.) The
Right Hon. Member for Tamworsh hay said that he
wished to see a great exertion made by Ireland to alle-
viate the distress; but if the Right Hone Baronet had
recently visited In-land and had en tt !red the cabin
of the tenant-farmer, the dwellings of Ithe priesthood,
of the ministers of the Establishment,:a n d of the Pres•
byterian clery—if he had walked into the medical
man's laboratory, the dismantled dwellin g of the land-
lord, struggling to relieve the destitutio n by which he
was surrounded—if he had looked over the schedule of
the broken-down and insolvent trades; nt in—if he had
observed the enormous sacrifices made of every descrip •
tion, and directed his attention to the voluntary
sub-
scriptions
in every quarter for the relief ~of distress, the
Right Hon. Baronet would have acknov ri edged that an
exertion had been made by Ireland such a .s could not be
found in the history of any other nation. He wished te
know whether the Noble Lord at the lies id of the Go-
vernment would cope with the difficult question con-
nected with the surplus agricultural population in Ire-
land, instead of compelling the industriol us and solvent

IL, to awiiituill io uilenese above e
people. With regard to the area Gf taxation, he believed
that the present extended area would encourage yete,,
mination, and not the adoption of a diminished area'
which, accompanied by a simple law of settlement, Would
tend to check the system of extermination. What cc°ld
be more delusive than the anticipations founded LIP°O
the prospect of the returning potato? Of what vale:
would it soon be for feeding pigs? Fre?-h pork was nu
imported. from America. The potato could not be relied
upon for carrying the tenant-farmer through the strugglewhich awaited him. He was in a very different ees:
from the tenant-farmer in England; in England fr,e_
trade might be followed by an adjustment of rent to tue
price of agricultural produce, but in Ireland to ask the
r
encumbered landlord to reduce the rent some 20 per
cent., or even less, was virtually to ask him to pails
,
sentence of expatriation upon himself.--(Hear, bear')
He (Mr. Sadleir) had received a letter that morning
from Queen's County, written by Mr. Wood, a Prec‘
tical man, thoroughly acquainted with the dis-
trict; and he stated that in the divisions of Denogav
more and Borris-in-Ossory there were about 3,000 acres
partially deserted. This was one of the districts frel
which the sixpenny rate was expected to be collected
! —(Hear,) This gentleman estimated the quantity 0„
land without hoof or horn upon it at more than 6,00,0
acres ; .there was no prospect of getting the rates of ibis
land before October next. He stated also, that from 011
thousand acres, Irish plantation measure, the poor-sets
could only be got by sale of the farm horse, or the c 0:
on which the subsistence of the family depended. Sur-
were the circumstances of the country; and they justifies
him (Mr. Sadleir) in saying that he. was opposed to th,
rate in aid, and he was also opposed to the imposition 0`
an income-tax upon any interest, profession, or calling
l
in Ireland. The Noble Lord (Lord _John , Russel')
might smile at that, but - let him show What class
or interest was in such a' condition as to makeeit
upon Imperial grounds, to impose upon it a tax fre.4:
which it had been hitherto exempted. He (Mr. Sadler)
had with him a letter from Mr. Purdy, agent to tile
Mining Company of Ireland, showing the very great
reduction in the quantity of -small coal of late for built
ing lime to manure land, corroborating what 'he (Mr;
Sadleir) knew to be true of a vast-proportion of the
class in Tipperary and Queen's -County, that tbl
tenantry, who were just getting what Crop they 000',
out of the land, were calculating leaving in the autumn
Another letter described the miserable condition of !ill
estate, the people dying by inchi.s; and that was a die'
trict from which the rate in aid was to be levied!'"
(Hear, hear.) Could anything be more like playlei
with the lives of the people, than to put forward
such an absurd proposition to practical men of business
to meet a great and pressing difficulty? Let the tle"
sound social state of Ireland be laid bare to the peeres
of this country, and then, if the House of Common
-would pass (to use the phrase of the Minister) a delibe:
rate sentence of death upon the distressed people 0'
Ireland, let him appeal to the constituencies and see
whether England would sanction such treatment of
people unequalled for patience and resignation—a pee:
plo who had been too submissive under a policy whieu
seemed like a cruel indifference to the increasing motW
lity to which they were exposed. He had frequently elr
pealed to the Government to take some steps by which
the vital statistics of Ireland might be placed before the
House. He had asked them to employ the machine*/
which they already possessed to obtain. a return of the
cattle, corn, poultry, and pigs of Ireland--ttiemploy the
police, and to avail themselves of the assistance of the
-clergy, the sheriffs, and the coroners of Ireland, in order
to get materials for placing before the House the nature
and character of that mortality which many private in-
dividuals knew well was rapidly and fearfully increasing'
—(Hear.) The Noble Lord acknowledged the import'
ante of this subject, but notwithstanding he had not el/
yet introduced any measure for the registration of births
and deaths in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared el.
if there was a wish to conceal the dreadful state of thing;
in Ireland—that there was a crafty effort to withboh:
from the people of England a report of this disgraceful
,
mortality.—(Hear, hear.) The fearful destitution 0'
Ireland was the main ground on which he rested his op.
position to the rate in aid, as well as to the income-tal'
He found himself compelled to vote against the Bela'
Member for Kerry in hie proposal of an income-tax, and
also against the rate in aid, which the Government be''
brought forward as the most wise and just mode of taxa-
tion it was in their power to suggest. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer stated last year, that though on strict
principles of justice it could not be denied that the fa'
come-tax ought to be equally imposed on both countries, 1
yet that in the particular circumstances of Ireland '
would not be expedient to do so. On that occasion be
spoke of professional men in Ireland who might be in the
receipt of 3,000/. or 4,0001. a year; but he.(Mr. Sadleirl
must say the number of such was very small. Tber
were not more than six members of the Irish bar
whose professional incomes exceeded. 3,000/. per an-
num ; and, with those exceptions, he did' not he'll°
there were many receiving 2,0004 per annum ;
the great majority scarcely earned as much Its W" „
pay their current expenses. The reasons given by
the Right Honourable Gentleman last year for not
imposing the income-tax might be urged with equal force
at the present moment; and, therefore, he could:not givethe amendment of the Hon. Member for Kerry' his sup'
port. With reference to the case of encumbered estates
in Ireland, he was satisfied that so long- as they
aimed at the administration of those estates
through the courts of equity they would never
.re-
move the difficulties they had now to contend w4h
They must make up their minds to surrender
to some commission with extraordinary powers the as-
certainment of the demands justly chargeable upon these
properties, and all other circumstances, and to oonfer
Parliamentary titles on those who might:purchase. Such
a project was no novelty in Ireland. It had been tried
in that country with perfect success, and he was satis-
fied that, if' now adopted, instead of employing the ma-
chinery of the Court of Chancery, a saving of from SO W
40 per cent. would be effeeted on the properties which
might under such a commission change hands.—(Hear.)
Mr. CLEMENTS thought the Hon. Gentleman who
had just spoken had brought forward strong arguments
in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Kerry; for anything that showed the prostration of the
farming class in Ireland, anything that pointed out the
great burdens they had to boar connected with the poor-
rate, spoke in favour of an income-tax in preference to
a rate-in-aid. If they were merely to consider the
question whether Ireland should, under existing circall-
stances, be taxed, he thought they would all come to the
conclusion that it ought not to be taxed. In ordinary
circumstances he would take the Hon. Gentleman's view
of the:case; but it was admitted that they were in no ordi-
nary circumstances. Right or wrong, the English people
were admitted to be against affording any further aid
to Ireland ; but it was, at the same time, unques-
tioned that the distress of the western districts of
Ireland must be relieved. Then where was the money
to come from? It could only be drawn from Irish
resources—(Hear, hear)—and the only question
before the Committee was, what kind of tax would
it be mast convenient for them to pay? —(Hear, hear.)
Everything that had been urged by the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Sadleir) spoke trumpet-tongued in favour of an in-
come-tax; and he had heard nothing either from the
Noble Lord or the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
could induce him to approve of the principle of the rat*
in aid. The Noble Lord had said that if the Irish Meta-
bars were in favour of an income- tax he would have no
objection to it; but he regretted that the mode in which
he thought it desirable to propose that substitution bad
anything but tended to a solution of the difficulty.--
(Hear, hear.) At the same time he thought it unfortu-
nate that any gentleman should have been frightened
from the position they were inclined to take by the sort
of almost threat which the Noble Lord held out to them,
that if they adopted an income-tax, still further taxation
would be imposed upon them.—(Hear.) He could not tla-
derstand why an income-tax should not realise as much
as a rate in aid. The only ground for Supposing it
would not was that a large amount of income was al-
ready paid in England out of Irish resources. But he en-
treated Irish Members not to be frightened at the
threat of the Noble Lord, but to consider the question
fully and fairly whether it was not more desirable to
have au income- tax than a rate in-aid. By having. to
income-tax they would avoid the degrading principle
involved in making Ireland the area of a separate tax-
ation for purposes which should Ise a charge on the united
empire. When he reflected en the moral effect a rate
in aid would have on the farming classes in Ireland, be
was really at a loss for expressions adequately to de'
scribe the apprehensions which must naturally be felt on
that subject. It; therefore, the Irish members were pre-
pared to meet the present crisis by agreeing to the
imposition of some new tax, he would cordially support
the amendment of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. RICE would have been content to have given s
silent vote in favour of a rate in aid, if it had not ap-
peared ,to him that the Hon. Member for Kerry had
made this an English :question. Undoubtedly the
pe ple olEngland did feel it hard that they should paY
an income-tax while the people of Ireland were exempt
from such a charge. Having on it, former occasion
voted in favour of extending the income-tax to Ireland,
it was necessary he should explain why he now gave
his preference to a rate in aid. His sole reason was
that he believed a, rate in aid would meet the esti'
gency that now pressed upon the House—that of
saving of the people of Ireland. from starvation---
whereas an income-tax would not.—(Hear,) If the
rate in aid was only to be ;sixpence in the pound, 11°
thought a very unnecessary,degree of indignation had been
displayed, and much valuable time wasted in debate bi
those who opposed that proposition. He admitted,
however, that there bad been some valid objections urged
against it. One was, the uncertainty that existed as £0
whether the rate would be limited in amount or in dura-
tion. That point ought at once to be sent at rest by the
Government.—(Hear, hear.) He would limit the time
to one year, and the amount to sixpence in the pound°
But when the rate in aid ceased, then the income OS
should commence.—(" Hear," and laughter.) He wes
glad that his proposition had been received with sue°
good humour; indeed, he was happy to observe that th°
debate had taken a much better tone than was evinced 10
the beginning of the discussion,—when some Hon. GO•
tleruen were pleased to say—" We in Ulster are Protes-
tants and prosperous; while you in Connaught are Catho:
lies and in distress;—become like us, be Protestants and
be p rosperous, and then you will need no one to relieve
you." Such bad been the language used in these debates';
__
but the Hon. Member for Kerry and the Hon. Mew:
her who had just addressed the House had spoken /11 -
very different spirit. It was honourable for Irish Merir
bets to come forward and say that they were Pre;
pared to submit to an income-tax for Ireland. He was
willing to give them an income-tax ; and he should sl'e
like to meet the wishes of the Noble Lord the Mernb°r
for Down (Lt,rd Castlereagh), who had expressed
desire that it should be an Imperial-tax and tor 11°'
penal purposes ; and, moreover, that it should hard
the same character of permanency which he believe_
the income-tax in this country was destined to en,
joy.--(Laughter.) He gave his vote on this oe
sion as a, vote of confidence in the Governtne:,
(Hear, hear)—for he possessed no information with