The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-13 00:00:00

Mr. HUNT supported the prayer of the petition.

Mr. HUi%IE admitted the distress, hut, in hie opinion,
if a duty was laid on cotton twist it would only aggravate
the distress that at present existed.

After a few words from Mr. HUNT and Mr. HuarE
the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. WILSON PAT I'EN then presented two petitions
from other places to the same effect.
Mr. SANDERSON presented a petition from the town
of Cavan, Ireland, praying to be allowed to return a re-
presentative to Parliament. ~
General GASCOYNE presented a petition from the
Corporation of Liverpool in favour of the Reform Bill;
but the petitioners objected to some of its details. The
Gallant General then presented a similar petition from Li.
verpaol and its . vicinity, and observed that he was de-
cidedly of opinion, that when the principle of the Bill
came to be perfectly understood, it would be unpo-
pular in the country. It was only opening a way to de-
mand further sweeping innovations in the Constitution.
He supported the prayer-of the petition.
Mr. O'BRIEN considered that Ireland was entitled to
a larger nurnher of representatives. He would reserve
what he had further to say on the subject until the ques-
tion came regularly before the liou,e. ,
The LORD ADVOCATE took the oaths and his seat for
the borough of Mahon.
On the motion that the petition be printed;'
Lord ENCOMBE made several observations, ' which
could not be distinctly heard in the gallery, and, after
touching on several points; he concludef by asking the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) whether it was the
intention of Ministers to abide by what they termed the
corrected returns of the population in various towns and"
cities in the year 1821 ?
considering Lord
for
r Reform,tha t
Ministers
obtained
when
d from they were
theff.
Home
Office the number of inhabitants in all cities, towns, and bo-
roughs sending Members to Parliament. They afterwards
sent to the returning- - officers of all boroughs a copy of
such statement, and requested to be informed if such list
was correct. These returns, and the answers of the of-
ficers, had been laid before the House in separate papers,
and also the corrections of the census of 1821.
These returns and the letters were now in the
course of printing: All memorials complaining of
erroneous returns that had been presented to the
-ouldreatulsronl: bmefotbr ees
ethe o c
uHouse,
as Secretary
well
as
laFidro
it would be able to pursue an equal course of justice to-
wards all places.—(Hear, hear.) He would mention one
petition had been received stating that
place where the return had been erroneous, be meant Buck-
ingham.—(Hear.) A
certain parts of that town had not been included in the
theof State
corrected'.'
population return of 1821, and that, the parish contained
more than 3,000 inhabitants. He should therefore pro-
posepresented a memorial, complaining that
to leave that town out of schedule A.—(Hear, hear.)
tiatlorsoof that town was not properly represented
of 1821. This memorial would have its
tiTnhrou thepr oo.p,h.oealnials u 8
Proper effect when the Bill went into a Committee.
(Hear, hear.) . Guildford also complained that it
possessed a greater number of inhabitants than was given
to it in 1821, as several streets were not then included
in the returns, but the way in which this complaint was
made was so vague and unsatisfactory that without in-
formation it could not be acted upon. It was his inten-
tion,en Monday next, when he moved that the Bill
should go into Committee, to state the grounds on which
he meant to propose an alteration in omitting or add-
ing Members to the various towns named in the schedules
of the Bill.
Ho should also pursue a similar course towards
By so doing, it would give an opportunity
to these places to apply to Parliament if there was any
towns, boroughs, and counties.--(Hear, hear.)
all mistake.
cities,
There were one or two other points to which he would
say a few words. He could assere the House that the
his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)—It had also
whole Bill had been well considered before it was brought
well considered by the friends of the measure.
in by
With regard to the wording of it, it was
probable considerable alterations might be made—(Hear)
the principle as laid down must remain the same.—
;(Loudwould
more cries of hear, hear. )—On three or four points some
tTuaolohtegteoraafilittnnieotrton twhcwaeoosmpu
the
Committee
ineib ect
interfering
e
einratstioonn
wtlhieienmohteionwofoolrd the Bill
on Monday next. There were several
with the right of freemen t
ribq
vote, whether such right bad been tabled by birth or
servitude. That subject was now
under consideration,
- ire! would be treated with what was consistent with
justice and equity. With regard to another point, namely,
Members of that- House--- ear)—
deonfyththeat it met with great opposition. Go-
ere persuaded that by a reduction fth
not deny
would accrue to the public,° anednguremai
abpyhthdeoeerevringn:ortingen:tdr:lellidngfactetntti:teo
HtChpublic business.. On this essential
uese thought it snsecessary that the pre-
sent number should be kept,
eoGovernment would have no
(obHjeecarri.o)n toThreeloaxailiatsotdGeteeortenrianlahiadn upon thatl point.—
( on the provisions of the Bill,
the consideration of Ministers.
essential as to the's Government
H He
i el mooeafltdlx
re
hs
assureieevherlra e
theroe Housese
underry a -
that lira Majesty
had no intention torinm riapkee
aonfyti
hnaelwtßehriaal whatever
alteration.—(Hear.)
theyo( consideredoHreeaars.o) reason
an dn
fact they saw no reason for alteration. From day to day
it was evident that the feeling of the country
was in
fa-
vour of the measure, and he thought little doubt existed
that it was calculated to promote the interests of the
country.—(Hear, hear).—With regard to the proposition
(s
of the Hon. Baronet hear.
tr R. Vivian) to allow the whole
eg be listened
must
tbe
of the present boroughs to retain the elective franchise,
retained,
such a proposition
couldb e notu bs m
--(Hear, hear.
, ) If the to for a moment.
number of Members were to be
the rotten
-given to large towns. All further observations on the
subject he Shoulddisfranchised and
Sir E. B. reserve for Monday next.
SUGDEN complained of the insufficiency of
the returns on which Ministers had proposed their plan
of Reform, and if
alterations were to be ' from time
to time proposed, it would be • .
impossible to enter into
the merits i
of ts details. He . would, however,
contend that if the
62 Members were to be resiored it
would altogether alter the principle• '
of the Bill.—(Hear,

PRICE 7D.

hear, hear. ) He should, if it was proposed to lower the
number of Members in England, and give them to Leland,
s,ffer his most decided opposition.. He would never con-
sent to take from the English to give to the Irish repre-
sent itioa.—(Hear, bear.) He would contend that it
wou'd alter the principle of the Bill, by which Minister/
had stated they would stand or fall.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he felt himself compelled
to correct a misunderstanding under which the Hon. and
Darned Member for Weymouth seemed to labour. He
(the N,,ble Lord) had not said that any of the boroughs
named in Schedule A. or B. were to retained ; what he
said was, that if there was an unanimous feeling in that
House that the whole number of its present Members I
(658) ought to he retained as the future number, the Go.
vernment would not feel, if they found that -to be
the sense of the House, that they were altering a
vital or essential principle of the measure, if they con-
sented to alter that part. His Hon. and Gallant Friend
near him (General Gascoyne) had misunderstood him
likewise, if he thought that hip Majesty's Government
would agree to any motion relative to the proportion of
MeMbers bet Ween England, Scotland, and Ireland, fixed
at the periods of their respective unions. He did not
understand that any proportions bad ever been so fixed, and
he believed that if that House were to declare it now,
they should be fixing -that proportion for the first time.
In the Union with Scotland there was indeed a proposi-
tion that fifty should be given to that part of the-United
Kingdom ; the English Commissioners, however, had pro-
posed thirty-eight, and the number forty-five, being a
kind of compromise, was ultimately agreed -to; but, in
the Act of Union, no stipulation was contained to preserve
the existing proportion of 513 to England, and 45 to
Scotland.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the Hon. and Learned
Member (Sir Edward Sugden), after professing a great
regard to the weifire of Ireland, bad laid it- down, that
the number of Irish representatives had been definitively
settled at the period of the Union. He would, however,
recommend that. Hon. and Learned Member to take the
trouble of consulting the Act of Parliament, where he
would find that the number of representitives then given,
was with the view of some alteration being afterwards
made in that proportion.
_ _ _

Mr. BANIKES wished to understand whether it was
the intention of his Majesty's Government that the House
should go into a Committee on tl e Bill on Monday next.
He (Mr. Bankes) understood the Noble Lord (Russell) to
say, among other details, that on Monday he should state
to the House the mode in which boroughs included in
the sweeping clause of disfranchisement could most con-
veniently represent their case to that House. If that were
so, upon what princ;ple of justice, or propriety, or with
what expectation of coming to an enlightened and un-
biased conclusion, could this House than go into a Com-
mittee ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL would only say that he'ehad
made no alteration whatever in any determination of his,
for none such existed, of pointing out on Monday next the
manner in which certain boroughs should relieve them-
selves 'from the disfranchisement proposed. On the
contrary, the course of the Government had been
quite clear. The Bill proposed that the disfranchisement
of certain boroughs should take place, founded upon the
population returns of 1521 ; but at the same time it was
stated, that if there was any error in particular places,
care should be taken to correct such mistakes. In conse-
quence of that statement various petitions had been pre-
sented, and latterly the Hon. Member for Tamworth had
moved for corrected returns; These returns had been moved
for a fortnight ago, and he mentioned it merely lestany Hon.
Member was not aware of the fact, and that the House
might feel thoroughly satisfied that every means had been
taken to produce all necessary documents that related at
all to the important subject under its consideration. He
should on Monday, as he had already said, state what
particular boroughs there were out of the sixty, and in
the forty-six, which seemed to him to be out of the
rule originally laid down_ _ _ _

Lord-G. SOMERSET said, that when this Bill went
into a Committee, he should move that an additional
Member should be given to some of the towns in the
county of Lincoln. He hoped that Ministers -would not
find it necessary to reduce the present number of the
Members of that House.

Sir C. FORBES contended, that so far from adding
to the prosperity of the country, it would have precisely
the contrary effect. What had been its effect in Scot.
land ? Why, from being the happiest people in any part
of the. British dominions, they had now become the most
discontented and irritated., and the country from one end
to the other was in a flame.
Mr. HUME.—With the illuminations.

Sir O. FORBES continued—Six weeks ago he had had
letters, in which the parties who wrote them prayed to God
that every part of the country might he as quiet as in Scot-
land. What was Scotland now ? The Hon. Member had
talked of illuminations. Would to God those who had lit
the fires had waited till they got out of the wood before
they had whistled.—(Loud laughter ) Those flames had
set all Scotland in a blaze. 'The amount of destruction
in Edinburgh alone, he was enabled, on the best autho-
rity, to state, was no less than 20,0001. • A copy
of a petition was now in circulation, at ten places in
Edinburgh, fur the signatures of those who paid rent under
101.—it might be to the amount of 91. 19s. 11d. yearly
—complaining that they were deprived of the elective
franchise intended to be given by this measure. The pe-
tition prayed that the petitioners might be alloWed to
have the franchise, or that they might be excu-ed from
serving in the, militia, and from paying taxes directly
or indirectly ; or if they were draws in the
militia that they might be allowed to choose their
own officers, commissioned as well as non commissioned,
by ballot.—(Laughter.) Now this was a pretty little
sample of what the House might expect if this
notable Bill, unfortunately for Scotland, unfortunately
for Europe—unfortunately for all the world—this revolu-
tionary measure should pass into a law. He had no doubt
this petition would shortly come into that House, signed by
tens of thousands. What were the petitions that bad been
presented, praying that the measure might be carried
into effect, from Edinburgh ?—(Hear.)—Why, they
were petitions which had been opened at gin-shops in
Edinburgh, into which people were taken by boys placed at
the doors, with placard., crying out, " Walk in, gentlemen,
now's your time to sign the petitions;" when they asked
what would be the consequence of the passing of this Bill?
" Oh," said the fellow, " we shall then have whiskey
for nothing—we shall have no guagere—we shall have no
excise laws—we shall then have every thing of that
sort on liberal and moderate terms." Thousands and thou-
sands had been got to sign the petitions which had been
sent up to that House in this way. All the blackguards
in the neighbourhood of the Canongate—all the young
blackguards in the worst places of Edinburgh, were set
to work to induce people to sign those petitions. But as
to the respectability of the country—there was not
a county in Scotland that was not decidedly
against the measure. Even-the towns were against the
clause restricting the franchise to a rent of 101. If this
revolutionary measure was carried, how would
his Majesty's Ministas be able to quench the flatne
of universal suffrage ? It was not easy to raise a flame
there, but when it was well blown up, the House must know
the difficulty there was of overcoming it. He hoped the
Noble Lord would indeed address the House on Monday
next (as he had said he should do) for the last time on
this momentous subject, because he hoped and trusted the
House would throw the Bill out—it ought to have
thrown it out long ago. There was not, one Member out
of ten in the House who had not thought the Bill in
the first instance a mere joke.—(Hear, hear, and
much laughter.)—lf _it had been grappled with as
it ought to have , been, it would have been tossed over-
board on its first appearance.
Mr. HUMEataid his Hon. Friend had adverted to him,
and said that be had been to-day advocating universal
suffrage: Why, the Hon. 11Iember was altogether under
a dream, for he (Mr. Hume) had not opened his lips be-
fore this moment to-day. The Honourable Member had
talked about some petition lying open somewhere for
signatures in Scotland, about something nobody knew
what, and which was to find its , way to London
sometime, but nobody knew when.—(Hear, hear,
hear.)—This was marching much too quick for
him (Mr. H.) therefore he shmild say no more on that
subject. The Hon. Member for Weymouth, the Gallant
Colonel opposite, and a Noble Lord not far from him, had
pointed out errors in the Bill. Ministers had listened
to them, but they had not in the slightest degree alt'er,al
the principle of the Bill—and yet those who were opposed
to the Bill now mite forward and said that hisllit:H
jesty's Min'sters had completely altered it. No roan could

really say so who
wlitno wwahsainhoatd taken
place
in s
under a
Scotland,
the
Honourable Gentleman 'who had just sat down could cer-
tainly only speak from what had
.been communicated to
him, and-so could he himself. NOw the House ought to
recollect that the counties in Scotland were exactly
like the close boroughs in England--as close as th
boroughs in Schedule A.—(Hear,' hear, and laughter.) '
The few freeholders in the counties were the monopolizers.
—they were the persons who opposed the measure, and
with the exception of them, there was scarcely an indivi-
dual to be found in Scotland ; not a borough, town, or
corner in Scotland, from which an universal expression
of congratulation did not arise at the bare contempla-
tionnd
gurea—(nd
DLonunddeec,hteehrestn)
a wofithtitieheprxcienpgtionof otfhEsdinmisalburh
was not a glace in Scotland in which there had be, n
any disturbance. In Edinburgh there were a few window •
brokenoind the only individual punished for engaging in
that act was the son of a gentleman, a connection of an
Hon. Member of that House, and who was fined in 101.
—(lfear, hear, hear.)—He believed it to he entirely the
Anti-Reformers, who had broken the windows ; there was
no earthly reason for the reformers to resort to such an act
—the breaking of the Edinburgh windows rested entirely
on the shoulders of those who were oppcised to the pass-
ing of the Bill.—(Loud cheers and much laughter.):—
In Dundee an unfortunate interposition on the part of the
police to suppress the illuminations, led to a slight dis-
turbance—nothing serious took place, and the whole
had pas.ed over. If the Honourable Member
therefore had been for any length of time past labouring
under any apprehension that his native country was being
desolated in consequence of this measure he might allay
his fears, because the whole of Scotland was as quiet and
peaceable as the most tranquil part of London.—(Cheers.).

Colonel SIBTHORPE congratulated the House on the
proposed change in the dress of the Bill, which he must
say was not a little inconsistent, after what had been stated
the other evening, that any alteration would make the
measure inefficient. The population returns for some
places were wholly erroneous. In Grimsby, for instance, •
that before the House was 3,064, but a census by the
people there made it 4,0p0 ; and be hoped that since then
some accouchenients had added to the population, so as to
make it the number which would continue both, Members
for the borough. Though he was glad, of the (-hinge in
the Bill, he would not vote for it unless a still greater
change were made in it.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS had been lately in Scotland, and
could state that the effects produced by the Bill there were
inconvenient and mischievous. The Noble Lord (J.
Russell) bad said the other day, that the Bill could under-
go no change, and Members were called upon by their con-
stituents to support the measure without any modification ;
but now the Bill was changed in its spirit at least. He
could state that the greatest irritation had been produced
in Scotland by the Bill. He regretted that the proposed
alteration had not been made in the Bill at a much earlier
period.

Mr. HUNT said they had three statements as to the
state of Scotland with respect to this Bill,—one was
that it was in a flame from one end to the other ;
another, that Scotland was all joy at it ; and a third,
that it had been productive of very inconvenient irri-
tation in the country. Now, he had been lately
in the country, and much amongst the people; and
he could tell his Hon. Friend (the Member for Middlesex)
that the people were not quite so mad for the Bill as he
imagined.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) The
country had now had time for reflection, and there was a
re-action of opinion.—(Cheers continued from the same
side.) Notwithstanding those cheers from those who he
knew would not support his view of the Bill, he would
state what he knew to be the fact as to the opinion of the
people. He had been recently in Staffordshire and War-
wicklbire, and other populous places, where he was
called upon to address the people, and he knew the senti-
ments of 200,000 of them, and he had not met one man
who was left out of the franchise who approved of the mea-
sure, and not one who was included who did not approve
of it. So that he might say there were 700,000 or 800,000
in favour of the measure, and 7,000,000 or 8,000,000
against it.—(Renewed cheers from the same side.) 'Let
not those gentlemen who cheered him imagine that in
this lie' was objecting to the Bill ; he would give it his
support. All that he objected to was, that it did not go
far enough. If it had extended the franchise to all who
paid scot and lot, there would be some principle in it, but
here there was none. At the same time he hoped it
would pass, for it would make one. great inroad into
that accursed system which had brought that House
into the contempt of every man of common
sense of the whole world.—(Cheers from both sides.)
So far he rejoiced at. the measure, but he must
own the truth, that a great re-action had taken
place in the public mind on the subject of the Bill.
He had met-the people of Manchester, of Birmingham, of
Bolton, of Preston, and other places, and notwithstanding
what felt from the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the
people were all run mad for joy on the subject, he must
say that, with one exoeption, the people thought they were
deluded by it.—(Cheers from the Oppoaition.) They
thought that they would have got something for themselves
by it; that they were going to get meat or clothes cheaper
by it ; but when they found that it would have none of
these effects, they were naturally disappointed at the whole
measure. He asked the people whom he had met, whether,
if they were excluded from the right of choosing repre-
sentatives for themselves, they would like to have repre-
sentatives chosen for them by that class of persons which
would possess the elective franchise under the Noble Lord's
Bill—the 101. voters. They uniformly replied "No !"
—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) They said that
they would much rather see their representatives chosen
by the gentry and the highet classes of society 'than by
that class which was immediately above themselves.—
(Hear, hear.) He had lately received a deputation from
the Spitalfields weavers, and he was told by them that they
were not now so mad as they had been ; they found that
they were not to be represented, and they did not, there-
fore, expect that it would do them any benefit.—(Hear.)
Colonel DAVIES had listened with pain to the extra•
ordinary speech which had just been delivered.—(Laughter
fi ern the Opposition.) The Hon. Member for Preston
professed himself to be a reformer, and yet be had done as
much as the worst enemy of Reform could do against the
Bill.—(Hear, hear, and " No, no.") The Hon. Member
bad told the House that the people were recovering from
their frenzy, and from their delusion. It was to be hoped
that the good people of Preston, at least, had recovered
from their delusion. They tancied that they had sent a
reformer to Parliament; but they would now find that
that reformer was doing every thing in his power to defeat
Reform.—(Hear, hear.) He would inform the Hon.
Member of the remarks, not heard, perhaps, by the Hon.
Member himself, which were made upon his speech in his
neighbourhood. (Colonel Davies and Mr. Hunt both sit
on the Opposition side of the House.) Some gentlemen
sitting around him thought that speech "the best which'
had been made against Reform," and others had said that
" it had done more for their came, and against Reform,'
than any speech yet delivered."—(Cheers from the Oppo-'
sition, and cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side.)
The Icon.. Member had said that the people of Preston had
discovered that they would not have bread, meat, or cicth-•
ing cheaper in consequence of this measure. If he (Colo-
nel Davies) thought that it would not have the effect of
making all those articles cheaper, lie, for one, would not'
vote for it.—(Laughter from the Opposition.) By
whom had the abominable system of taxation existing
in this country, and the enormous establishments which
ground down the people, been upheld ? - The Hon.
Member for Preston had himself answered the ques-
tion in 110 speeches which be hail made in that House,
and hail declared that a Reform of Parliament was wanted
to do away with that system which had so long been the
curse of the country.—(Hear, hear.)—He was convinced
that with a reformed Parliament, no Administration could
stand six weeks unless they proposed measures of economy
and retrenchment. -The Hon. Member had said that the
people had recovered from their delusion ; and that now
when they found they were to receive no benefit from the
Bill, they were all to a man against it. He flatly contra-
dicted that statement,—a different feeling pervaded the
country.—(Hear, hear.)—People were to be found, he
asserted, who were willing to make sacrifices of the privi.
leges•which they held moss valuable fur what they consi-
dered a public benefit.--41 Tear, heer.)—lt was impossible
for him to sit. still, after hearing the Hon. Member, who
professed to be a reformer, deliver the speech be bad done.
If the Bill new' before the 'House was thrown out, what
was to be done then: Did the Hou. -Member wish-to go
oil from bad to worse, until some convulsion took place in
the country, when the radicals would get what they
wanted—universal suffrage,.and annual•Parliamentaa:
that was not the Hon, Member's objects -be Fmk! tiot gen"
ceive for -what reason the Hon.. Member shotildh*te:Tade
a speech, which had done more to. prejudice measure
of Government than any which had yet been
(Hear, hear, and cries of "No.") •
' state.
An HON. MEMBER denied the 'accuracy of -tie
bole -0E; 'F'-e9lPl"u'
:tient which had been made, tlaat onis„
from one end to the other, Wa3.dflor
r.,-,;„in,64.4 county
terial plan of Reform.. ;Low oe rvsrtyll,o
meeting in ofthe district, Itatfr with
intelligence, en" "7s^ e • passed.reaolutionr,- :and, piepaltal
..ne or two eecro
u°
disepikrobation of the mitotic.
Je;ivered
petition., expressing their
Gallant
Mr. HUNT had been denounced by a u °be