The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-19 00:00:00

be denied.

King had
punish the
d.—(He
)f course it

tiler Powers
ce a separa-

ace of Lon-.

-
peace, and
1 have (lone
ey had done.
ion of hos.-
sted against
nistice, and
to prevent
lie ()dieted
twci Or (litre
rotest of DO
negociations
ie conference

revocable.--•
ration of the
b!e, and the
ose on which
recognised.)
e conference
;ian Congreo
separation as
le nezociation
!aye Brusse!st
3wers to pre-
msures as the
'nee, had shack
complained
le conference;
;,other arrage.
lust have Iwo

when on the

, ....___
me, indeed, in
ire been deter-
recta ? Against
if Holland na^
and complete
ney with throe
unwarrantable
sau. Was its 1
,t re that King
is of which le'
to be already
es were not
retaining tholle.
ossession,, net"
Holland ; and
plans was the
, hear, he,io•l
abtful that t
irritated leer
• cour.try
rot say unjusliit
to the day tilsl
isy were psYill
f Belgium $ll
he question by
loess was in
ences of a 1
withstanding
isapprobatioa ,
to withdraw
himself jitstikel
&hough bell"'
ented to rettlll
responsibility
t the confereeq:
Ly, or allowed
'forcing te4ei°,o
which it 11, •
ling. a populal%
ad a half.
know what pi 8
gs ; and as
of Belgiutly4j
and comPl7o
to Hon. 1301/ fij
sting to it, ‘di
trfere with $
Feeling of ors
ted in fiethicel
had experiee_co
vas very to
leen expreseed.,A,
ught that a ato
Ise would tend
mil in their tl,•
to support to to
io'
ar)—ancl to Lo
rto they had 114
reasons be WI
Lronet.—(oeo.:4o
explain bis ree7l
ion, was bell°:;
otlerate mewl'
a introduceds;
stated their
I for related.
taking the 19.4 i
an opporttle'veo
ad pursued itobl
rrcd. The

.eopold w Aas -
Id he no rej9o°,

tidings up t°
re 119 effect Ir,
lalmerston) cc°,,o
:herrfore, e 3
ity which the
ci
Notwithst3o
mold say, thotto4
he documontsiito
compete 11°
The pur infe
otee
intry bad
the electonrl
co"
but the Pr .1 0'
hear.) Vat' 0,
established, t114;.1
not reasolld
obliged to ti,3,1
wer, and to o.'o,
;a which the rl,
duced. Flr ‘ti•Oitli

Frye would not delay the House by giving full expression
his sentanents respecting the conduct of the King of
(land, whom same Hon. Members still vainly called the
of the Netherlands. The Hon. Baronet was not
te
of with an attack upon the Belgian people, but had
Iv.e.ollt of his way, for the sake of attacking him (Mr.
°IWO ; and hail co- fleeted him, with what lie was
see to call the left wing of the army of Revolution in
lin' That should not provoke him (Mr. O'Connell)
La much of the toil of ,e certain faction in England
ia,:,flgitt"r)—farther than to remind the lion. Baronet,
‘'' lnir. O'Connell's) politics had the sanction of
°4',411 the counties of England, while those of the
i!•,-nimnet himself hat! ably the approbation of seven
ettita,:
.N.yi_ts the lion. Baronet sit. in that Heusi! the
tdtat:tt.ki of a large county, which had since rejected
t ins politics, lie WAS supported by a majority of
ilautity Members of England. Where were they now ?
aughter.) The Hon. Baronet looked like—
i.,e_
ICI last rose of summer left blooming alone,
the tw.elY cof theompanionslion all faded and gone.aronet hail been a"-(Laughter.)
, . Bpproved by
lePe°Polttiesl:,le of England, he would not have lost his seat.—
kite') "ears) For his part, he (Mr. O'Connell) had eer-
-14 endeavoured to defend the Belgians from the
;°'' which he had heard uttered against them ;
in' 'ndceed, when the Hon. Baronet attributed the Revo-
ee , ..,
ee t' July to the Jesuits, he (Mr. O'Connell) would
-I' alte to defend them too, if the charge were such as
rejnaer their defence necessary. He would not defend
ileaa,its whenever they engaged in national polities, nor
roeeturY were aecused of conspiring to overturn the
fmi°„' Charles the Tenth—(Lanehter )- but he would
iero "'ern on the ground of their exertions in favour of.
riare, science, and civilization, and for the relief of
!laC-Ilhghlmlanity.—(llear.) The Noble Lord complained
Nlelet-%King of Rolland was called a tyrant ; but he
,eil 6.44 why were the Belgians c died rebels ? They
Aies,it-n ,aulieeted to Holland without their consent, and a
leted. at'on was forced upon them which they lied
i re-
tif * : The Belgian Notables, chosen by the King him-
rittirteti the Constitution by a majority of 795 to 52w7 ;,;
tetio , notable King—(Laugliter)—decided that 527 a.
%t diTY, and 796
andste minority. —(Laughter.) What
itiltitis wise benevolent Monarch do to confirm
• --Lla upon the allegiance of the Belgians ? Why,
ry,llaiin
jto their union with Holland, they had
_Tr!ieal.
—by
ter 1 u that inestimable right he had abolished.—
ear.) d.
e,"e'ear.) Whet would the people of England say to
ho 4-'l° called that man a wise and benevolent. Monarch
d eftilitived his subjects of the right of Trial by Jury,
laitierWards passed a law that witnesses should not be
ar.)"carnined or confronted with each other ?—(Hear,
rte' r3ut he did not stop there. Ile annihilated the
om" 4 the Pr • and much as bad been said about
ileat Citi°,l of eD"e;Potter, it was to be rememberatl
°Millet:am condemned, not by a Jury, but by Judges
'c ii-`1 by the King, and liable to removal at
a'es ittrl'a Pleasure—nol nOon examination of wi.tt.
in °Pen Court, but after the confronting of wi -
400,131:17.ae wIl
ik:ee.ti abolished by law ; and even then, the King
441- 'gerl to abandon the charge of libel, and to copy an
ourf
curedli had been held out to him in this c. outiltry-r_
nee
coolte men for a conspiracy, when no dehnan e o
til
rod be charged upon them.—(Cheer".) A law had
, subjecting to various penalties—from six
wiis torture with the collar to the punishment of death,
ki,,ti'er,vho should publish anything tending to disturb. the
live ng order of thin s —(Hear.) Under that law thirty-
:ltt
iN,Proseeutions were instituted in one day. He wondered
l'eie the ez-Attorne 'General for England was pleased at
I'4 ao outdone. General
laughter.) However much the
„the itlitoti, England might be pleased with the conduct of
'44 th Xing so far, he (Mr. O'C.) scarcely supposed.
ttiellt eipr admiration was quite so great of his treat-
histiir,Plateincri, whom he displaced.--(Cheers and
pot k't•) Ile did not give them retiring pensions—he did
di4iii-alre °nen to the! such refuge for the destitute as
hem ate,' Tories weren said to tied here.—(Laughter.) No,
ligt:ttade them outlaws—h' e deprived them of all civil
`e(L. Surely the Tories would not praise him for that.
Oet laughtr.) He forbade to the Belgians the use of their
i'44 44,,,nage- He ordained that the man whose fathers
itif --"ca no other lan itaee than French, and who him-
°F understood no otherglat:' • e, should plead in Dutch,
,te "sce i„
• Willie ew not a word,gn apgetitio. nin Dutch, and make
la yeti Dutch.---( Hear.) The King not only. obstructed
ter' e
ono
n'aYs the education of the Catholics, but he in•
tlitenel: tv„i'll flair religious institutions. But the King
veked e auroge the , eof
ted riguts the people—not only rei
h'iliditl'e Constitution, into an acceptance of which he had
„Nee thdr?ern, --but, being a King, be went into trade.—
'at eel.' --C-'l.') He set up a brewery in one place, a mann-
rl'hie)C di not set
4 ive himself a monopoly in a third.
taxed trader couldanrosger in opposition to the King, who
1-1, i the eorn as itPrwp and the bread whilst in the oven?
lituransferred all the" public establishments of Belgium to
l'ele, 4,,°&--even the mining establishment., although there
tieti"ut a single mine in the latter country. In
there
ptt:othere was the same partiality. In the affirm.yers
the a 41Y eight Belgian to forty-eight Dutch o t ,at
let-apul.e time that two-thirds of the troops. were Belgians.
elle ."gbt Hon. Gentleman concluded amidst very great
peg.
is b_ir* TREVOR. could not regard the French army. now
Bel TREVOR
in any other light than as an army of occupation.
t !Ir. A. BARING was fully aware of the greet delicacy
b'" difficulty of the negotiation in which the Noble Foreign
cretary had been for some time engaged, but still thought
iet Noble Lord might be More communicative than lie had
.'en with respect to these negotiations. He, however,
Se,
-uiti not then enter open a dismission of the respective
g•
rai of the King of the Netherlands and the Belgians
itthe transactions which had led to the separation of the
hees' into a separate kingdom, only to observe that in his
l ;.2,1 the HOD. and Learned Member for Kerry had been
eiqueneed in ti:e selection of his topics so condemnatory
pit4tile personal conduct of the head of the House of Nas-
oiehY considerations other than those merely political.—
sayzr.) He feared there was a leaven of religious animo-
e, itl! the Ilan. Member's statement,—( Hear.) Be that
teeti:,,a)a. he was sure that to any body of Englishmen it
tat I.; ne idle to address vituperative assertions concerning
het bauee of Orange—a house to which not only England
itiete"rope, indeed the whole world at large, was more
libtrt"ted for its services on the score of religious and civil
Lit,„ Y titan any other in existence.—(Cheers.) He had
aettl-teiofcrt.sided some years in Holland under the govern-
to ill, 1 the then Stadtholder, and could take it upon him
eeeti,°rln the Hon, and Learned Gentleman, that in no
Pere4Y,iu Europe was the administration of justice more
In h i ce would go farther and say, that he should prefer
le4te his cause tried in a Dutch Court to not only an
hi, 4eourt—_that, ' indeed, would be the last any man in
a 'eller' would just now think of entering—(Hear, and
4teileZ e-but to any Court of Justice with which he was
°ltieetttc,(l in toy part of the world.—(Hear, bear.)
4rtio„' he felt satisfied in hie. own mind that the as-
to the"a of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, with respect
tatleietna,l'administration of justice in Holland, would on
aetes,l, "e found to be monstrous exaggerations, if not
fl°l' it, Ye.° gross calumny.—(Hear, hear.) One fact spoke
is 6%"---the King or olland possessed the affections of
Ittt Farr,4. aubjoets to a degree of popularity hardly rivalled
ik.- Ivitht111::il-ncl With respyctto the prosecutions of the Press,
Nee toe lion. and Learned Gentleman had alluded,
to say, that up to the accession of Charles
litite COt Press of Holland was the freest in Europe; intlee.ed,
Ptik,, eYe• sore as such to the neighbouring courts otl
had
-tetY; and that De Potter and Van Ilaylen, who
°Pince' Lic,agth prosecuted and punished, were ultra im-
nit% ,-4,1 e persons who bad persisted in promulgating opi-
(lle4r7ich no constitutional authority could overlook.--
the W.,' He knew not what was the tone or matter of
""e-sektls'ion of the conference which had formally effected
but 41P:ration
e of Belgium into an independent kingdom,
Preeeett. "c Would say, that it was idle to suppose, in the
agitated state of the public mind of Europe, that
keyeerenee could establish and secure an independent
(lie, In, between the French and Dutch frontiers.—
into to-', . The thing was an impossibility, without taking
that uslderation the 'veil-known maxim of French poecy,
gear)lt9iiri
e)
Aou rn could lie between France and the Rhine.
g'''.fteti u 41, man with the talents of Napo eon liiinsielif,
to
lee it Pon the throne of Belgium, would not be able d
hall
tat . g uarantee against France. He therefore argutel
a, , ° efforts of the conference must have recently
ttl,..h.Rilettetteit'lleti
jin. a wrong direction, and he thought that even
themselves must be convinced that. they had not
!, t, their object in their attempt to raise a barrier be-
Iniee stn
French and the Dutch provinces. He was not
Cent' ter into the moral question of such an arrange-
r.., li i,;:-°rl that he studiously avoided venturing an opinion;
neve bweeas his conviction that, in a political sense, it would
t4lOll t;'11 a better arrangement to have divided
.Belgium
eterlt e 'surrounding states, than to have left
.It, as at
is 4. ' surrounding a mock sovereignty and a nominal indepeni-
e`end 6,_,4t Would have been a far better security for H.o -
341/Is,
tlsg:sit;:irt,itl: aggressions of France than the formation
a separate and independent nation,—..a. na-
Viett:sinat could not -contend even against the Du ch.—
t_talit t i rOns the Opposition.) In using this last expres,
,hre'o4 e tioriot be supposed that lie intended to cast any sneer
lihrlb' eUtelli for a braver people than the Dutch was not,
a!eretii 'Tube found inEurope.--(Cheers from both sides.
:tiust pit c(.l that they would have had a better security'.
laelech, era,nee in uniting to Holland that part of Belgium
ii,2'stie:- ,'"va, in language, and in feeling, belonged to
mie or 11..4,. they would have by forming the different.
eiginua into a mock sovereignty. He meant by

this, that if they had left Antwerp and the linc of the
Scheldt, and the country along the Macse, up to Maas-
tricht, in the possession of Holland, they would bave left
Holland in a far better state of defence against France than
that in which she would be placed by the present arrange-
ment. By giving Antwerp and Maestricht to Holland,—.
by giving the Duchy of Luxemburg to the Germanic Con-
federation, to which it formerly and historically belonged,
—and by giving the provinces which bordered on France
to that country, they would, in his opinion, have created
a system of greater seem ity for the tranquillity of Europe.
The provinces which bordered on France, Tourney, and
Mons, for instance, wet e French in feeling,—the country
from Antwerp to Ostend were, to his knowledge, as de-
cidedly Dutch in feeling ; and lie believed that in the
Duchy of Luxemburg, with the exception of that feeling
recently excited by Belgian agitators and French propagan-
dists, there would he no difficulty in assigning it to some
of the powers of Germany. Had the conference gained
any thing by pursuing 3 different system ? When they
had driven the King of Holland out of Aorta erp, and
taken from him the command of the Scheldt, bow long
would he be secure in the possession of his Stadtl oldership,
—for it was folly to talk of his kingdom, now that they
had erected a sovereignty in Belgium for France to walk
over whenever cite pleased. By such an arrangement as
that which he had proposed, all parties would have been
quieted; but what was the ease now? France remained under
the impression that Belgium, at some time or other, must
still belong to her. If the Noble Lord could get the army
of Marshal Gerard out of Belgium, which he admitted
would be a great act, almost a master stroke at diplomacy
--(Loud cries of " hear," from the Opposition) still sup-
posing the Noble Lord should be able to do that, of what
value must the tenure of that sovereignty of Belgium be,
when it could be encroached on, if not destroyed, by Frani e
at any moment she pleased ?—(Hear, bear.) When they
gave France the command of the fortresses on the BA-
gian frontier, as he was afraid that they had done already,
—when they gave her the means of occupying Antwerp,
they placed her in a situation which gave her command
❑ot only over the navigation of the Scheldt, but also
over the whole of Holland. Now; if. they had given

Antwerp and Mae,tticht to Holland, they would -have
formed • Holland into a power, not, perhaps, capable of
resisting France successfully by herself, but capable
of resisting France until the rest of the Powers of Europe
came to her aid, if any of them were inclined to join in her
quarrel. Undoubtedly the arrangement made by the treaty
of Vienna for the union of the two countries of Holland
and Belgium was not satisfactory ; but still, with all the
_ .

knowledge which they had since derived of the subject
from experience, he must say, that it would have been
matter of extreme difficulty to have made any other. 'The
course which he had ventured to suggest, as that which,
_ _

politically speaking, would be most advantageous, had also
this advantage,—that it would not only be in accordance
with the interests of tile five Powers, but also in accord-
ance with the interests of the Belgians themselves. There
was now a great nation looking upon Belgium as a priv,
of which they could make themselves masers at any time
they pleased. Belgium, a weak. country, would have a
still weaker country behind it, and that weaker country
animated with all the rancour of a discarded friend.
Now, in the range of country situate between Ostend
and Antwerp, theta was a large manufacturing popu-
lation, which under the new arrangements would not
have any outlet for their manufactured produce; for
the Dutch on the one side, and the French On the
other, would not let the manufactures of Belgium enter
into their respective territories. Hon. Gentlemen would
perceive the distress which this state of things must inevi-
tably create, if they would only censider the state to which
Manchester, and Birmingham, and Sheffield must be re-
duced, if a wall were built around those towns, and nothing
permitted to pass without it which had been manufactured
within it. The provin6es which would naturally have
gone to Holland contained the towns of Antwerp, Ghent,
and Ostend, all which towns were places of commerce,
had formed connections with the colonies of Holland, and
were anxious to retain them. Hence it was, that during
all the excitements which had recently prevailed, those
three towns had always been desirous to belong to the
Dutch.—(Hear.) He was convinced that no peace would
prevail either in Belgium or in Europe, until some such
arrangement as that which he had taken the liberty of
suggesting was carried into effect.—(Great cheering from
the Opposition.)
Mr. lIUME expressed his regret that he should have
lived to see the day on which a Member of a British
house of Commons dared to rise in his place to advise the
partition of an independent nation.—(Cheers.) The ar-
gument which the Hon. Member for Callington had just I
used, was the same argument which had been used by the
unprincipled despots who had perpetrated the atrocious
partition of Poland. He trusted that the doctrines which
the Hon. Member had that night advanced would not
find many supporters in that House ; for what had been
the course of the Hon. Member's argument? First of
all, he had approved of the treaty of Vienna, which
united two nations in a political marriage without asking
the consent of either party, and then he had concluded by
proposing to partition Belgium among the surrounding
States, for the stale plea of preserving the tranquillity of
Europe,—the very plea which had been urged in the
case of the atrocious aggression on the independence of
Poland.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member had then pro-
ceeded to express his disbelief ih the statements contained
in the eloquent and masterly speech of his Hon. anal
Learned Friend the Member for Kerry. Now he would
undertake to say, from his own soul ces of information,
that although the statements of his Hon. and Learned
Friend might be exaggerated in some respects, there
was not one of them which was not founded in fact.
He (Mr. Hume) denied that the people of Belgium were'
the fickle, unprincipled, and discontented people, which
the Hon. Member had represented them to be. He was as
much mistaken in his facts as in the arguments which he
had deduced from them ; for De Potter land not been ex-
pelled from the Government which he bad formed for his
countrymen, nor had Van Helen been sentenced to impri-
sonment for his successful defence of Brussels. On the
contrary, De Potter had voluntarily resigned his office, and
Van Halen was now in the receipt of a liberal pension from
the people he had defended.
Mr. BARING said a few words in explanation, but they
were almost inaudiiale in the gallery. We understood laim
to say that he had expressly put out of view the morality
of the arrangement which he had proposed—he had only
spoken of its political advantages.
Sir It. PEEL was not at all surprised that his Hon.
Friend, the Member for Oakhampton, should think that
the time was at length arrived when it was fitting that the
House of Commons of England should have its attention
drawn to the state of its foreign policy.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.) He was not surprised, that at a period when
the popular assembly of every country in Europe which had
a popular assembly had its attention exclusively directed,
not to the changes to be made in its Constitution—(Loud
cheers from theOpposition)—but to the momentous circum-
stances which threatened the independence and the tranquil-
lity of Europe ; he was not surprised, be said, that at such a
period—when the Ministers of other Powers imposed upon
themselves no reserve, either as to their own intentions
or the intentions of other nations, sn independent Member
of Parliament, contracting no official responsibility and
labouring under no official obligations, should think that
the time was at length arrived in which it was incumbent
that the only popular Assembly in Europe silent on such
interesting topics should not be the British House of Com-
mons.—(Cheers.) No doubt premature disclosures had
their objections, but complete indifference, perfect passive-
ness, and utter silence had their objections also.—(Great
cheering from the Opposition.) His Noble Friend, the
Foreign Secretary, acting upon his responsibility as a 'Mi-
nister, had declared he was precluded by paramount con-
siderations of duty from entering into any discussion upon
this subject. If his Noble Friend told him the time was
not yet come in which he could vindicate himself from the
charges of his opponents without making disclosures which
might prove injurious to the. public service, then, as there
would be something ungenerous in making such charges
against him, he would bridle in his own feelings, and ab-
stain from calling for certain explanations which he
thought his Noble Friend ought to be called upon to give.
Whilst he abstained from making such charges, he was
bound in justice to himself to say, that in the whole of the
annals of England never was there a case which so impe.
riously demanded explanation—(Loud cheers from the Op-
' position)—never was there a series of transactions on
which, at a period when the Members of his Majesty's
Government should be released from the obligations of
secrecy, it would be more incumbent on them to vindicate
themselves from. the charges which had been brought
against theta.—(Cheers continued from the same quarter.)
He could not forget that there was, in support of the
statement of his Noble Friend, the peculiar hour, the cri-
tical moment, at which this discussion was taking place.
His Noble Friend had complained of the numerous ques•
;.ions put to him from the Opposition
TheysideoofrtihgienaTd it
House
on the subject of our foreign policy,
an anxious desire to promote the interest and the honour of
the country, not in any desire to embarrass the Govern-
tnent,—(An Hon. Member on the Ministerial benches in-
dulged in a very audible laugh at this naive declaration.)
The Hon. Gentlemen who smiled at this observation, might
have unlimited confidence in his Majesty's Government.
Did the Haan. Member think that at a moment when the
King of France had declared in the speech with which
alt-
ie
opened his Chambers, that the tri-coloured Hag was flo

lig on the walls of Lisboa,—at a moment when the
French army was occupying the fortresses in the Nether-
lands,—at a moment when, according to appearances, the
only signs of military activity on the p trt of the •Briti.li
Government were directed against its two most ancient
allies, Piirtueal and Holland—(Loud cheers from the Op-
pesition)—did the Hon. Member think that such was the
moment at which men who were anxious for the interests,
and still more anxious for ti e honour of England, were to
b.a precluded from seeking information from Government?
Government hail always a right—and he did not mean to
find fiult with them for exerc'sing the right—to refuse to
give an answer to the questions which might be put to it.
—( Here the Right Hon. Baronet was disturbed by the cry
el " ('rder, order," raised by some gentleman in his im-
mediate vicinity.) The lion. Gentleman gave him an
interruption by his repeated calls for order far more an-
noying than the disturbance of the gentlemen whom he
wished to control. -
Mr. HUME rose to order. It was not his Hon. Friend
that had created this interruption, it was the cheering of
some of the Right Hon. Baronet's friends, then sitting
around him.—(Cheers.)
An lION. MEMBER. seated just below Mr. Hume like-
wise rose to order. He felt it necessary to state that the
disorder bad been occasioned by the proceedings of t'ee
Hen. Alderman below him, the Member for the city of
London.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. Alderman WOOD rose in contradiction of the as-
sertion just made by the preceding speaker. We under-
stood him to say that be had interfered because he had
and an Hon. Member say with an oath that " such lan-
guage never yet came out of the mouth of man."
Sir R. PEEL would feel obliged to Hon. Members if
they would place him without further delay in the place
in which he was before the interruption. What was the
moment which his lien. Friend had selected to put his
question ? It was the moment when France was occupying
a part of the fortresses of Belgium, and when, in answer
to questions put to his Noble Friend from the Opposition
side of the 'House, the statement of the Government was
this,—a statement which he bad not yet beard contra,
dieted or qualified—a statem' nt which he had head with
the greatest satisfaction, and which he hoped would be
verified in fact—namely, that the Government had re-
ceived assurances and engagements from the King of
France, on which they could rely, that on the withdrawal
of the Dutch troops from the Netherlands into Holland,
the French troops would also he withdrawn from Belgium
into France. That, he understood, was the answer given
on a former evening by his Noble Friend, the Foreign
Secretary, to a question put to him by his Honourable
Friend; the Member for Okehampton.—( Hear.) He
trusted that there would be no necessity to qualify
that answer hereafter ; but such being the answer of his
Noble Friend, he was convinced that the period was so
critical as to afford ample confirmation for his (Lord
Palmerston's) -declaration, that he was precluded froin
entering into zny discuss" n. At a period so critical there
was no medium between no discussion and discussion the
most ample. He should therefore follow the example of
his Noble • Friend, and enter into no discussion on this
topic. He should not follow his Hon-Friend near him
into the discussion of the policy which was. adopted to-
wards Belgium and Holland, in the treaties made at Vi-
enna in the year ISIS, nor into the discussion of the
policy which be (Mr. Baring) fancied ought to be pursued
towards them now ; for, he could nut enter into such a
discussion without transgressing the principle which he
had just laid down. He rejoiced to see his Hon. Friend
the Member for Okehampton, once more in his place.
Even if his Noble Friend (Lard Palmerston), had been
prepared for such a discussion as that into.which.his Hon.
Friend (Sir R. Vyvyan)wished to draw him, he (Sir
Peel) should not have thought it necessary to discuss the
conduct of the King of Holland to the Netherlands ; for
though he conscientiously believed that the conduct of the
King of Holland had barn universally animated by a desire
to promote the prosperity and happiness of Belgium, and
that for the fifteen years of his rule the inhabitants of
Belgium had enjoyed a degree of prosperity, liberty, and
independence, which they bad never enjoyed at any past •
period of their history.—(Cheers.) Yet, as a separation
had been decided on between them, and as any attempt
to re-est ablish their union would be impracticable in
consequence of all the Powers of Europe having con-
curred unanimously with Belgium and Holland that a
final separation should take place between them, be did not
see any necessity for arguing- on this cccasien respecting
the conduct of the King of Holland. He would avow at'
once that he pieced no confidence in the statements of the
speech of the Hon. and Learned •Meariber for Kerry. He
considered him as a prejudiced, a most prejudiced witness.
—(Great cheering from the Opposition.) He recollected
the attempts made by that lion, and Learned Member to
effect a similar separation between two other countries
nearer our own homes.—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. O'CONNELL vociferated " No."
Sir R. PEEL—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said
no :—why, had not his war-cry for some months, past
been for a repeal of the Union between Great Britain. and
Ireland ?—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL had advocated the repeal of the
Union, but not the separation of the two countries.
Sir R. PEEL—The repeal of the Union then was ad-
mitted. Why, all that he had charged the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman with was, that he had made attempts
to dissever the Union now happily existing between the
two countries, and when he heard the members of his
Majesty's Government cheering the lion. and Learned
Gentleman—(Great cheering from the Opposition)—and
rejoicing in the success of tie attack which he had made on
the King of Holland—(Cheering continued)—he (Sir R.
Peel) could not help recollecting that they had vindicated
their renewal of the yeomanry farce in Ireland upon the
principle that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was at-
tempting to repeal the Union.—(Cheers repeated.) How did
he know that the details into which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had entered were correct?—(Hear, hear.) Had
he not heard the lion. and Learned Gentleman speaking
of facts which he stated had occurred in Ireland within
the last fourteen days, and declaring that an officer of the
Crown had publicly avowed that he had received instruc-
tions in some late prosecutions to challenge every Roman
justice
ane
; accu-
sation
but
Catholic or liberal Protestant who might be called to serve
on the Jury?—(Hear, hear.) A more grievous charge
againstof
a iGn
toevrefor,nitun4e rtivt
witty
notpn ittbeeemonardsee,of jti
was
as soon as he (Sir R. Peel) heard it, he declared his con-
viction that it was without foundation. If the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman could in one case state that which he
believed to be true, but in which the Hon. and Learned
Solicitor-General for Ireland had proved by incontestable
documents that be (Mr. O'Connell) was misinformed,—
if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was so imperfect a
witness on circumstances occurring so lately in Ireland,
and in the profession, too, to shish he himself belonged,
might not he (Sir R. Peel) infer that his statements of
what occurred in a foreign country were, to use the phrase
of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, all facts, but much
exaggerated?_(" Hear," and a laugh.)
Mr. HUME asserted that he had not used the words
" much exaggerated," be had only said " highly coloured."
—(A laugh) •
Sir R. PEEL pet sisted that the words used by the
Hon. Member were "much exaggerated." He recollected
them well. The Hon. Member said "much exaggerated,"
hut he (Sir R. Peel) would take the version which the
Hon. Member now gave; for it would suit his purpose
equally well. What a miserable dispute was this about
words! As if a high colouring was not a statement by
which a false impression was given to facts, admitted to
have occurred !---(Hear, hear.) But, said the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, " There is nut a word in the
speech of my Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for
Kerry, from which it could be inferred that, though be
deemed him a bad King for Belgium, he deemed him a
had King for Holland." Why, what a notion must the
lion. Member have of Dutch and Belgian subjects, when
lie supposed the King of Holland could act well by one
part of his country, and ill by the other. The. Hon. and
Learned Member (Mr. O'Connell) had thought proper to
taunt and insult him and his late colleagues ; what right,
what ground had he to apply to them those taunts and in-
sults? They might have been driven from office, but
there was not one amongst them who would have conde-
scended to repair his shattered fortunes by wringing a con-
tribution from the pockets of the poor peasants of Ireland.
—(Tremendous cheering, which lasted some seconds.)
They had taken no course in their public life which ought
to have exposed them to the taunts and insults of the
Hen. Member, which had been as unprovoked as they
were undeserved.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. Alderman WOOD explained, He was not the per-
sonwho interrupted the Right Hon. Baronet. He was
merely
making a remark to an lion. Member near him.--
(A laugh.) He had heard an offensive remark from the
Hon. Member for Heslemere. There, he heard it again.
Mr. O'CONNELL explained. He wished to set the
Right Hon. Baronet right as to fact. The•statement to
which lie had alluded as made by him (Mr. O'Connell)
had been first made by the Member for Kilkenny. The
Hon. and Learned Member was proceeding to notice the
concluding remarks of the Right Hon. Baronet, when he
was interrupted by cries of " Spoke."
Mr. HUNT said, this was a question of peace or war,
and if any time was proper for discussing it, this was the
time. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Vyvyan) had attacked
the French Government as bad as any other Hon. Members
-had attacked the King of-Holland. He had call the French

" bullies," and "braggadocios," and said that the way to
meet them was to put on a bold front. Did he expect we
were to go to war ? With whom ?. From what he (Mr.
Hunt) knew of the people of England, there was nothing
to which they were so averse as war. He hoped the
French would keep possession of the fortresses of Belgium
—(Hear)—till the King of Holland had learnt a lesson
which should prevent him from ever entering Belgium
again._( war.) He hoped the" mock King" would not
be sent back to England, but that lie woutt live and reign
in Belgium.—(Cries of " Question.' ) He would come to the
point presently. He thought it would be imprudent in
the Government to gm to war ; awl if they did, the money
must conic out of the pbckets of the rich, for the poor
could not pay.
Sir R. R. VYVYAN, in reply, observed that as his
Noble Friend was disinclined to produce the papers, on the
ground that they would lead to improper disclosures, he
would not press his motion. He had not caller! the French
army or the French Government " bullies." He had
said that there was a secret party urging the Goveynment
to measures which might produce a general war, and he
thought it was proper to assume a bold front against that
Rtrty. His object had been to call the attention of the
House to the subject, in order that his Majesty's Govern-
ment might see that they could depend upon support in de-
fending the interests of the country.
The motion was than withdrawn.
REFORM BILL.
Lord ALTHORP moved that the House do resolve it-
self into a Committee on the Reform Bill.
On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair,
Mr. KENYON rose to move, that it he an instruction
to the Committee to make provision for further in-
crease of the number of Knights to serve in Parlia-
ment for the different counties in the Principality of
Wales. The Hon. Member spoke for some time; but
owing to the noise in the House, and the indistinct tone in
which he spoke, scarcely a sentence could be heard in the
gallery.
The SPEAKER said, that the motion which had been
made was not subject for an instruction to the Committee,
but was referrable to clause 13 in the Bill, which had al-
ready pasetl..
After a few words from Mr. WYNN, which were not
audible,
The SPEAKER stated, that there were two kinds of
-instructions,—one to enable the Committee to do that
which it could not otherwise do, and the other was of a
mandatory character, and compulsory upon the Committee.
The instructions moved by the Hon. Member did not be-
long to the former class ; and he therefore wished time
Hon: Member to say whether he meant his instruction as
a mandrory one?
Mr. KENYON replied that he did.
Lord ALTHORP thought that Wales had no right to
complain of the provisions of the Bill, because her repre-
sentatives had, in fact, been increased. Glatnorganshire
was to return two Members, and the reason why the other
counties were not allowed so large a share of representation
was; because they were not considered sufficiently wealthy
and important. He therefore objected to the present in-
struction; but he did not mean, on-that account, to pledge
himself not to consider the point before the Bill should be
rep
tIl-lieoSonir.Nrt NNmel
Larditr I(‘t
withdraw
anderar
pw)l
hislhr. a sgt- No
declaredux ri enc ocno lnms
eecinud
himselfeen ie
et
0t
1e
not
precluded from reconsidering the subject.
Mr. KENYON accordingly withdrew his motion ; and
the House resolved into a Committee on the
REFORM BILL.

The question before the Committee was the continuation
of clause 16, to which several verbal amendments were
proposed and agreed to.
Colentl WOOD said, that by agreeing to these amend-
ments, the House was allowing tbat p irt of the clause
which created so much discussion last night to pass with-
out observaton.
Lord ALTHORP said that at the conclusion of the
clause he should propose a proviso for the purpose of re-
medying those inconveniences which were complained of
last night.
There being three different amendments given notice of
with respect to this clause, some conversation took place
upon the order of proceeding ; and it was finally settled,
upon the suggestion of LordAlthorp, that Colonel Sibtliorpe
should have the precedence.
Colonel SIBTHORPE stated that it was his intention-to
move the insertion of the following words in the clause :
" That all bona fide tenants and occupiers of land (not
being freeholders, copyholders, or leaseholders), who
shall hold any number of acres situate within the several
counties or divisions of counties, for which asy election for
knights of tie shire to. Parliament should be at any time
hereafter made, the annual rental whereof shall not be un-
der or less than 501. per annum, free from and clear of all
charges and deductions- whatsoever, such tenants and occu-
piers as aforesaid shall be and are hereafter entitled to vote
at any such elections for knights of the shire for any such
county, or division of counties, in which lands are situ-
ated; providing they each and severally so claiming to vote
have, bona fide, been in actual possession of such lands
as aforesaid for a period of not less than one entire year
preceding any registration as may be hereafter directed
and required to be made, touching the right of voting at
elections." He said that he did not anticipate to carry
his proposition to a successful issue; but yet he was de-
termined to proceed through all the difficulties of his situa-
tion, and, if necessary, to take the sense of the House, by
division, on the question. He regarded it as exceedingly
unjust, that while the elective franchise for counties was
given to copyholders and leaseholders at 10/. per annum,
the class included in his amendment, which in point of
respectability, intelligence, and contribution to the neces-
sities of the State, was not to be surpassed by any other
e
body in the community, was alone marked out to he cast
adg completelyive the elective
b se
aside and stigmatized. The class to which he proposed
to
e o
twas
perfectly
l of any G independent,overn,r.n Government.
n
The Noble Lord proposed to give the right of voting to
378,786 101. renters in towns. As a counterpoise to the
new power, he considered it expedient to give the right of
a rent of 50/. He concluded with moving
voting for the election of Members for counties to tenants
a at h
at will, paying
his atnendment.
The CHAIRMAN asked the Hon. Member where he
proposed to introduce hie amendment?
No answer. being given to this question, a Member
called out bring it in any where," which produced some
merriment.
The CHAIRMAN then requested the Hon. Member
for Lincoln to advance to the table and point out where he
wished his amendment to be introduced.
Colonel SIBTHORPE accordingly proceeded, to the
table, and conversed with the Chairman for a considerable
time, during which much confusion prevailed in the Com-
mittee. At length,
Mr. WESTERN rose, and said that in his opinion the
Committee had not arrived at that part of the clause in
which the Hon. Member's amendment should be
Lin-
colnintro-
duced-
had fallen into a mistake in proposing his amendment
at that period.
Ti e CHAIRMAN said, that the Hon. Member for
The Hon. Member did not object to the
clause.—(A
laugh, and cries of " Go on.")
Colonel SIBTHORPE admitted that he had committed
an error, partly owing to the suggestion of the Noble Lord
(Althorp), and partly on account of the anxiety which he
felt on the subject to which his amendment referred.—
(Hear.) He would withdraw his amendment for the present.
Colonel WOOD was of opinion that the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member had selected the proper period for proposing
his amendment, and hoped that he would persevere with it.
The Marquis of CHANDOS had the same object in
view as the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln,—
namely, to have justice done to the agricultural interest,
He thought that a farmer paying a rental of 401. per an-
num ought at least to be put on an equality with a 10/.
householder, and that be would prove to be as good and
h,6Bwt)oriorntierutedimtsssi thoo:ria_vf
aevr7otm,htaeTeasrrth.
there
boeloalut.
unel
should
was
persont
oos desirable i
tnsbbeeer
tlost
eodcciframed.uns
pi
gtty occupying
t the i
goe
flaalwniuedshe fenlanyttrhormareuenil
following
deot of the
farming
tool
Ci e:rhone
is
such
shalll an
own account, land at a rent not less than 50/. by the
year, although without any specific tenure of his land,
shall be entitled to vote at elections for knights of the shire,
whereinuc
havet ll
u occupant
dbeisesnittittilaetrle,topvmovteidei
until
been one year in bona fide possession of the land."
The CHAIRNIAN said that the Committee had not yet
arrived at the part of the clause where the Noble Mar-
quis's amendment should be introduced. The only ques-
tion before the Committee was, that the blank in the
clause be filled up with the words " 60 years."
Mr. CRESSET PELHAM said that the confusion in
the Committee was so great as to render it impossible to
understand whet was going on.
A conversation which lasted for a considerable time now
arose as to the course of proceeding, and at last it was ar-
ranged that Lord Milton should move his amendment first.
Lord MILTON then rose to move the omission of
that part of the clause which extended the right of
voting in counties to leaseholders at rack-rent. It BP-
'teased to him, as had been stated on a former occa-
sion by the Honourable and Learned Member for
Cockermouth that a lease for seven years whereon there
was a reserved rent of 50/. was not likely to produce that
wealth which would enable the possessor to act in. a manner