The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-14 00:00:00

THURSDAY, AVARCH 14, 1822.

them. While we kept them in ill-humour this expense was
necessary, but if we treated them in the spirit of a kind and li-
beral policy, they would defend tlemselves.
The Petition was then ordered be referred to the Agricul-
tural Committee.
EDINBURGH PCLICE BILL.
Mr. ABERCROAIBY presentel a Petition from certain in-
habitants of Edinburgh against :he Police Bill. He took
this opportunity of disclaiming in assertion, which he had
been understood to make on a keener occasion—that a highly
respectable individual had treated his fellow Citizens with in-
dignity.
After a few words from Mr. W.Dirarnas, the Petition was
ordered to lie on the table.
MR. HUKT.
Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from an individual of
the county of Lancaster, who hid been arrested, tried, and
convicted with Mr. Hunt, and sentenced to a year's imprison-
ment, praying for the remission of tie remainder of Mr. Hunt's
sentence. The Petition contained me paragraph to which he
would call the attention of the House, as it presented an agree.
able contrast to others that had lately come before them. The
Petitioner, in the paragraph to which he alluded, said, " he
had been consigned to a prison in Lincoln Castle, and had been
treated with that humanity which the laws of the country re-
quired, to the lasting honotte of the Magistrates and the officers
of the prison." Besidet this Petition, lie had one to present
from Rochdale, in the county of Lancaster, on the same sub-
ject, signed by 2,100 inhabitants ; and-he hoped thee prayers of
the Petitioners would be attended to.
Mr. F. BUXTON wished to offer a few remarks which his
absence on former occasions had precluded from him offering
before. To his apprehension the charges brought forward
against the Magistrates and jailor by Mr. Hunt and an Hon.
Alderman (Wood) had been completely established, and a case
of great hardship and of flagrant cruelty had been clearly sub-
stantiated. This opinion was founded on the conduct of the
jailor towards the prisoner Cure. Then there was the case of
an unfortunate man whose legs had been loaded with irons, and
whose arms being loaded with an equal weight, made it almost
impossible for the individual to stand upright. The Commis-
sioners had ordered them to be put on the man again in their pre-
sence, and the manner in which they indented the flesh, in a short
time proved that if they were kept on, the prisoner must be sub-
jected to something very like torture. The case of the female,
named Cure, was one of still more flagrant cruelty. Con-
fined in a solitary cell, without fire, when frost and snow
were on the ground, from the hardships she sustained, that
nutriment failed her which nature had provided for her infant.
No provision, however, was made for the occasion, and for two
lays the mother and child had nothing to eat but bread, and
nothing to drink but water from a bucket. A person of the
name of Treedle, when in the agonies of death, had not met
with that accommodation which his situation demanded. He
had been left in a cold common sleeping-room, where he might
be disturbed by others, and where others might be shocked
and annoyed by him. The conclusion to which he came to on
these circumstances was, that it was the duty of Government to
order the jailor to be prosecuted. The facts stated by the
Worthy Alderman (Mr. Alderman Wood)
i he held to be com-
pletely established, and the House were n his opinion much
obliged to the Worthy Alderman for his perseverance. He
proceeded to account for the favourable report which he (Mr.
Buxton) had made on the state of the Ilchester Jail in 1818.—
The mal-practices which had prevailed had been introduced
since that period. This he had a right to assume from the
language of the petition, which stated them to have crept in of
late. With respect to Mr. Hunt, it was clear the Judges meant
to subject him to thirty months confinement in a wholesome,
well-situated, and well-disciplined jail. It was plain that Mr.
Hunt had suffered through the first twenty months of his con-
finement from the misconduct of the jailer. It was proved that
out of the last 600 prisoners confined there, 400 had been ill in
various ways. But a still stronger proof of the unwholesome-
ness of the situation was furnished by the proceedings of the
Coroner's Inquest on the body of a prisoner, who was declared
by the Jury to have died by the visitation of God, but whose
death was accelerated by cold, and by injuries sustained from
damp, through the frequent inundations of • the prison, which
had been flooded six times in eight weeks. Mr. Hunt, it was
clear, was not in that situation in which the Judges had meant
to place him. If, then, he remained in prison till the time ex-
pired for which he had been sentenced, he would suffer more
than it had been intended that he should Adler, and would in
fact have to complain of gross injustice. He hoped the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), and the other
Members of the Government, would take these circumstances
into their consideration. He did not plead for Mr. Hunt from
private friendship, nor from admiration of that individual's
public conduct; but whether Mr. Hunt was a good man or a
bad man, he was entitled to justice, and justice required that
his sentence, and that alone, should be inflicted, and not a pu-
nishment which had never been contemplated by his Judges.
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE said, the degreeof punish.
ment which had been inflicted might form a good ground for
the competent authorities to- remit a part of Mr. Hunt's sen-
tence. He might go along with the Hon. Gentleman when the
subject came before the House in this shape ; but he contended
the state in which the Hon. Gentleman had formerly found the
jail when he 'visited it went a great way towards justifying the
representations which had been made on the subject before the
late Commission commenced its labours. - He did not see how
the local situation of the prison could be affected by what had
lately transpired, but he was glad the Hon. Gentleman threw a
distinction between what the prison was when he visited it, and
what it was in 1821.
Mr. DICKENSON vindicated the conduct of the Magi-
strates, who the moment they believed there were real grounds
for complaint, had afforded Mr. Hunt every facility for sub-
stantiating his charges. It was his belief that the Magistrates
of Somerset were incapable of acting with that savageness and
want of feeling which had been imputed to them.
Mr. PEEL said, that after the appeal which had been made
to him, he felt i.nwilling to remain entirely silent, and he was
also averse to invite discussion, until the whole of the evidence
now in progress of printing should be laid on the table of the
House. In a few days he expected it would be published, and
then the whole case could with fairness be considered. He had
read the report with that regret which any man must feel at
discovering the particular instances of misconduct alluded to._
No man could read without indignation the treatment inflicted
upon three of the prisoners, on the head of one of whom a blister
had been put, not for the purpose of administenng relief or con-
solation, as such remedies were applied in cases of disease, but
to augment the punishment of an individual for refractory con-
duct. Such an instance of cruelty could not be read without in-
dignation, not only against the person applying for the blister,
but the medical man who had administered it. He did not ask
the House to withhold their unqualified censure from those who
had so loony incurred it ; but he only called upon them to
suspend their judgment upon the whole case, until the evi-
dence necessary to enable them to form a correct opinion was
in a state to be presented. With respect to the case of Mr.
Hunt, he should only remark, that the circumstances must,
indeed, be very special and very strong which, in the pre-
; sent instance, would induce him to discuss it, particularly as
the subject would in a few days come before them in the
shape of a specific motion ; but he had no objection to state the
result of the inquiries he had made into Mr. Hunt's condition
in the prison. Mr. Hunt occupied two rooms in the gaol which
had a northern aspect ; the adjoining ward was appropriated
for the reception of two prisoners who waited on him ; and he
had the privilege of walking at stated times in the yard. That
contradictory orders had been issued respecting Mr. Hunt, he
knew ; but he must defend the Magistrates of the county of
Somerset from the suspicion of being actuated by unworthy
motives in any part of their conduct. He believed that the
Magistrates who attended the gaol were as well disposed as pos-
sible to make the situation of Mr. Hunt as comfortable as!was
Consistent with the discharge of their duties. Commissioners
were now sitting to consider how far the situation of Ilchester
gaol was susceptible of improvement. With respect to the
admission of Mr. Hunt's friends, he could only say that the
High Sheriff had taken upon his own responsibility to admit
them, subject to the terms of the former regulation which sub-
sisted when Mr. Hunt first entered the prison, and to which he
was not understood to have objected. It was evident from what
had transpired, that the Magistrates had taken the, greatest
pains to render the gaol as commodious as possible, and to
remedy the obvious defects of its' situation. They had di-
rected an inquiry to be conducted by the Clerk of the Peace and
the County Surveyor, _to ascertain the best manner of repairing
the prison, and to report the progress they had made at the
next Quarter Sessions. That some of the Magistrates were
guilty of negligence, he would candidly admit, but it had ob-
viously arisen from their confidence in the gaoler, who had de-
served every praise for his conduct during the time that the
typhus fever had raged in the prison. He did not refer to that
conduct as in any degree palliating the subsequent misconduct
proved against the gaoler, but only as justifying the confidence

such an undertaking as far aS lay in his power ; but this was
,not the question now before the House. He did not consider
the Bill open to the objections which had been stated, and
hoed it would be allowed to be read a first time.
Sir F. 0M MA NNE Y explained.
Mr. HOLME SUMNER wished to reserve what he had to
say till the Bill got to a second reading, and the House had
become more acquainted with the subject. He therefore
hoped, as it was desirable, that the Hon. Bart. would be al-
lowed to withdraw his Amendment. He wa's opposed to the
Bill in its present form, btft wished it to go through the pre-
sent stage.
After a few further remarks from Sir NV. D. CRESPIGNY,
Mr. N. CALVERT, and the SPEAKER, the Amendment
was withdrawn, the Bill read a first, and ordered to be read
a second time.

DISTRESS IN CANADA.

Mr. MARRYAT presented a Petition from the House of
Assembly of Lower Canada, which, he said, contained a simple,
but melancholy recital of plain facts and official documents.—
The Petitioners state, that within the last year the wages of
labour, the prices of the produce of the soil, and the value of
landed property in that. Province, have diminished one half ;.
that the amount of the exports has decreased from near 800,0001.
to little more than 500,0001.; that the imports have decreased
from near 1,300,0001. to between 8 and 900,0001.; and that
the Provincial Revenue has fallen off, within the last year, from
more than 100,0001. to between 70 and 80,0001. They add,
that all these results have been occasioned by the Acts of the
British Legislature which have imposed a duty on the importa.
tion of their timber, while at the same time they have lowered
the duty on the importation of foreign timber ; and have esta-
blished a system of Coin Laws, under the operation of which
their corn has been excluded from British consumption ever
since the month of October 1820. They respectfully state, that
if their produce is thus rendered of no value by the Legislative
measures of the Mother Country, while they are compelled to
send their produce to her ports, and prohibited from all com-
mercial intercourse with every foreign power, they shall be
unable to find the means of providing their population with
those articles of comfort and necessity which they have hitherto
been in the habit of importing, or to raise a revenue to defray
the expences of the civil -establishment of the Province and
they conclude by praying, that their grain may be admitted
into the home consumption of Great Britain.—Sir, this tale of
distress is interesting to us as well as to the Petitioners ; be-
cause the adversity as well as the prosperity ofevery Colony is re.
fleeted back upon the slother Country. It is obvious that if
the exports of Lower Canada are insufficient to pay for her
imports, the British merchants and manufacturers, by whom
they are supplied, cannot be paid ; and that if the Colonial
'Revenue will not provide for the civil establishment (and Lower
Canada is the only British Colony that pays the whole ex;:
pence of her civil establishment), the Governor, Judges, and
other Officers, who are sent out from hence, must be paid out
of the revenue of this country. The statements in the Petition,
that their produce is rendered of no value by our late regula-
tions, are by no means exaggerated. As to their timber, it is
a fact within my own knowledge, that a cargo was lately con-
signed to a respectable house in this city, who refused to receive
it, being aware that instead of leaving any nett proceeds, it
would bring the shipper in debt. They, therefore, left it to the
Captain, who disposed of it, and found it insufficient to
pay the freight and charges of sale. So that timber from
the British Provinces in North America is not only a
total loss of the prime cost, but brings a further demand
upon the owner. Such are the consequences of the new duties
on timber, settled last session of Parliament. With respect to
their corn, it is only admitted into our home consumption when
the average price of British wheat exceeds 87s. per quarter;
and therefore, all that has arrived here since the month of Oct.
1820, still lies locked up in our warehouses, with every pros-
pect of remaining there till it is spoiled, or ll the value of it
is sunk in rent and charges. I have before had occasion to
assert, in this House, the necessity either of continuing to act
towards our Colonies on our old system of protection, or of re-
leasing them from those restrictions to which they are subjected
for the advantage of the mother-country. To require from them
a double monopoly, to bind them to take all their supplies from
you, and to ship all the produce of their industry to your mar-
ket, while you pass such laws as render it of no value, or pro-
hibit it from your home consumption altogether; (which is pre-
cisely the case with these Petitioners), is exercising an unex-
ampled degree of arbitrary power over them, and if continued,
must soon devote them to absolute ruin • I trusts therefore,
that this Petition will meet that favourable consideration to
which it is entitled.
Mr. ELLICE wished to offer one or two observations on the
Petition presented by his lion. Friend (Mr. Marryat), and to
beg the attention of the House to the serious evils so justly
complained of by the Petitioners. No person unacquainted
with the provinces of Canada could form a just idea of the con-
trast which their present situation presented to their former
prosperity, or of the consequences that must inevitably result
from the continued restrictions on their trade. Last year the
alteration on the timber duties bore heavily on that branch of
their commerce; and for the first time the operation of the
Corn Laws prevented the introduction into this market of the
other staple article of 'their produce. They were also, if re-
port spoke true, threatened with the loss of their West India
trade—a subject now under discussion, and which must be
settled with fair reference to the various interests concerned in
it ; and it was impossible to foresee what might be the results
of all these measures to that unfortunate colony. If they were
not permitted to send their produce to this market, while it
was excluded from many others by the operation of the naviga-
tion laws, it was impossible they could long pay for the manu.
factures and supplies we compelled them to receive solely from
this country ; and he did hope some relaxation of the present
restriction and, above all, the admission of their corn, might
be conceded, without risk of injury to the agricultural interests.
He again begged leave to recommend the Petition to the seri-
ous consideration of the House and of Government.
Mr. BENETT (of Wilts) opposed the prayer of the Peti-
tion, on 'the ground that it was as necessary to protect the Eng-
rialAgriculturist, as it could be to relieve the Canadian corn
grower. When corn might be imported into this country,
large quantities of American grain had been sent to Canada,
and thence smuggled into England as being of Canadian
growth ; so that the restraint now complained of the Petition-
ers had in fact brought upon themselves. He wished to give
the Colonies all equitable protection, but could not consent
to afford that species of relief which the petitioners now
desired.

Mr. WILMOT was fully convinced of the reality of the dis-
tress complained of by the Petitioners, but at the same time he
must remark, that there was nothing in the measures lately
adopted that could produce that distress. Ile thought it de-
sirable that this Petition should be referred to the special notice
of the Agricultural Committee.
Mr. RICARDO thought the House bound to attend to the
justice of the complaints contained in the Petition. The Cana-
dians, in his opinion, suffered great and serious hardships
which ought to be removed; they complained chiefly of three
grievances, which were-Ist. That we did not take timber from
them on the same terms as we did before.-2d. That we re.
fused to admit their corn.—And 3dly. That they were sub-
jected to the inconvenience of purchasingall articles in our mar-
kets. As, to the first, we hada right to go to any market we
pleased for our timber, but on that very principle the second
cause of grievance ought to be done away, and their corn
ought to have access to our markets. Whenever that subject
was proposed in the House, he would give it his best assist-
ance to put their corn trade on that footing ; with respect to the
third point, the forcing the colonies to purchase in our markets,
when they might be more conveniently supplied elsewhere, it
was an inconvenience to which they ought not to be exposed.
He would always oppose that principle, not only as applied to
Canada, but to every other Colony.
Sir I. COFFIN thought it would have been a good thing for
this country, if Canada had been sunk to the bottom of the sea.
It cost this country 500,0001. per annum, and did not make a
return to it of 500 pence. The Canadians, by the timber trade,
had been id_the habit of cheating this country out of 300,0001.
yearly. This had been done by suffering great quantities of
American timber to be sent down the River St. Lawrence, which
had been then brought to England as Canadian timber. Yet
after acting such a part, they now threw themselves on that
House for support. The sooner the Governor was called home,
and the sooner the Assembly and Colony were suffered to go,
he should be sorry "to say—au Diable, the better.
Mr.' W. allowed that Canada cost us a great deal
of money, but that made it the more necessary to take such
steps as did not interfere with its improvement. He was con-
vinced' that if the province of Canada was made 'easy and com-
fortable with respect to its commercial relations, we need not
be at the expence of a heavy Military Establishment to defend

PRICE SEVENPENCt

which it appeared the Magistrates had reposed in him ; he surer of the Navy, for instance, must have a colleague.• ra
came to them from the hulks, recommended by an excellent fact, his Right Hon. Friend was not only alone in a situitioa
character, and it was by his previous conduct he had been able of responsibility, but he was himself a double representatia
naturally.enough to impose upon them. So well had he de- of official trusts, for he filled two offices of that nature. There
served that character when he first had the superintendence of was an opinion of Mr. Palmer given in evidence before t
the prison, that the non. Member opposite (Mr. Buxton) when Cornmtitee of that House, that it was disadvantageous to ti ::•
he had visited it, said, " I was not so fortunate as to see the
....
business of the Post-office to have frequent changes in ti ,•
gaoler, but t
he general aspect of the prison convinced me that heads of the department. If the occasional changes dope.
he had done his duty well towards the Magistrates-' who had ent upon a change of power produced such disadvantges, i. •
also nobly discharged theirs." The Right Hon. Gentleman would put it to the House what practical good could arise fie:::
concluded by urging the propriety of placing a confidence in the alternate changes of superintendence which constant;
the integrity and impartiality of the Magistracy, on account of took place between the two Post Masters General. There vies
the great importance of their gratuitous services to the country; an opinion of Lord Chesterfield, when he was 'Postrnastoi.
and the necessity of giving them the fullest support. General, given before the Finance Committee of 1799, whiz:,
Mr. BEN NET would be as ready as any man to recal cen. he would read to the House. His Lordship was asked, "If any
sures too hastily pronounced, but every thing tended to con- difference of opinion should exist between the two Postmaster.
firm him in the opinion that those which he had formerly bestow- General, how would they come to a decision ?" To which- he
ed on the visiting Magistrates were just. He believed them to answered, " Such a case, I believe, would very seldom occur ;
be unfit for their situations, and had it in contemplation to but if it did, I suppose the junior would be disposed to giss 'submit a motion to the House for their removal, considering way to the senior." The House would therefore see that tor'
them to have broken their trust; if the evidence turned out as were paying 2,5001. a year to a Noble Marquis, to enable hi..,
he expected it would turn out, he should take the step which to be disposed to give way to a Noble Earl. It ought s;•.; ,
he had announced, if no other Hon. Member brought the subs to be remembered, that for the greater part of two years t
ject forward. Noble Earl was engaged in diplomatic transactions abroad, sa
Mr. HUME thought, as he had stated before, that several of that it was quite clear he had no duties to perform tonne:.':: e
the Magistrates had appeared destitute of humanity. He con- with this office. He would say a few words as to the Irise
curred in the view which his lion. Friend (Mr. dtennat) took and Scotch departments. It was not his intention to include ex...,
of this subject. Unwilling to pass hasty censure, he approved in his resolution, as he should keep as close as ros.Bible to t',
of the call which the Right Hon. Gentleman made on them, to schedule of the former Bill which he had quoted. But he cc:.
suspend their opinion till Inquiry could take place ; and he re- ceived that if the House admitted the principle, by agreeing•t •
gretted that Ministers had not acted on this feeling in another the Resolution, they would afterwards extend' its operation 't
case, where a Gallant Officer was concerned. It was not well, those branches of the department. With regard to Scotland ,
that Ministers should adopt this principle in some cases, and he understood that the office there was a complete sinecure ;
act in direct opposition to it in others. for the collection of the revenue was managed under the Eng-
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, at different periods,
lish Postmaster-General. In fact, the Act of the 9th of Ann-
when the affairs had, so placed it. In Ireland, it was impossible but that ever
reference had been made to the orders supposed to have been :
of Ilchester Jail had come before the House ,
Honourable Member, who had looked at the accounts, must
perceive that the Post-office expenses were nearly double--
made by certain Learned Judges for the regulation of that
He was of opinion, that both the Postmasters-General in th s.
Jail. lie had in consequence taken occasion to desire that
these regulations should
(be sent up. He had seen them in
country ought to be abolished, if they looked at the duty wide:.
their original state, and as they were afterwards intended to be . was to be performed by them. But as nothing could be F, ?
acted upon. In the original there were three or four harsh desirable as to keep Gentlemen in Ireland, he would even mak •
rules, which ought not to be used for any Jail in the kingdom. the sacrifice of one, although both might be reduced wi;.:
But he was in a situation to state that these had been disallow- perfect safety to the public service. lie begged to observe,
ed by the Judges, and those subsequently allowed were not that he had brought forward this question as a measurer.;
only such as the law sanctioned, but they were not open to any specific economy. He did not at all wish to put it in the ligi t
-
objection in other respects. He mentioned this, as an idea had of affecting the influence of the Crown, and he should there.
gone abroad that one of those learned persons had sanctioned fore deliver no opinion upon that subject. When it came be
regulations which were harsh and severe. Such as they were, fore the House in a regular shape, he should be quite pro-
be was confident that they would be considered satisfactory by Pared to deliver his sentiments upon it. If, however, his mo-
the House. tion was to be opposed upon the ground of its lessening the
The Petition was then brought up, and ordered to be printed. influence of the Crown,. he should then say that the people hesi
Sir ROBERT WILSON presented the Petition from loch-
amhcgaroadosi
Crown
nsur
ton djetuunh
unjust
di
tno)ace
people,
i cls,eotthat.
a just right to. complain of ,the Manner in which their distress
dale on the same subject, which was read and ordered to be
overgrownspuatstatecit:heon sgnecircumstancesec
eosta'snataxation,dry ppreservative
eewrr
ve'
influence;h
aitt
icohavbne
be turned.
aotvifuter.
iwt;:
.IL:.is
was considered. A long war, and ire consequent expenditure.
printed.
HOP DUTIES.
ofSthireßgr.olity7tlhLoSfolBN2l ,moveddi
sti
nfogroninacgcothunetdourfethrenedeeuthiesetwoneeHn otges
which
ny
power of thel CrOWn.asßefore he sat down, he was anxious
old and new duties.—Ordered.
cWisicoainitothue• must come eeoHmoeuusepti,on ttlhieisim p,3rtance of
Notth the
nt!ie .._
• . PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Mr. MABERLY wished to know if the information which its• of question. 1
upon own merits, as a measure practical economy, was it
had been promised to him on a former night, and on which pro- important, but considered relatively to the decision 1• '
to w nee
miss he had pUt off his motion respecting the Public Accounts, the House came a few nights
,when
ago two useless offices were
was to be given or not ?
abolished. The present decision would prove whether Ger.-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was unable tlemen meant their vote of the other night as a first dividend or
to give an answer in the absence of his Hon. Friend (Mr. economy paid to their constituents, or whether it was intended
Lushington). When he arrived he would probably be able to as a discharge in full of all their demands. He rejoiced in the
satisfy the Hon. Gentleman. success of his lion. Friend's motion upon that occasion as
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from Calling- much as any
man • but if it involved no principle—if it was
wood, in the Township of Oldham, in the County Palatine of meant by those who supported it as the definitive quantity oS
Lancaster, praying for the remission of the remainder of Mr. reduction which they would support, and then use it as a proof
Hunt's sentence.—Ordered to lie on the table. ' that they had redeemed their pledges of economy, he would
POSTMASTERS GENERAL. rather that his Honourable Friend had sat in solitude on that
side of the House, and uttered his single " Aye," when the
Lord NORMANBY would feel the diffidence which he ex-
question was put. lie did not mean to say that Honourable
pressed when addressing the House much increased if the
Members were bound by that vote to support every motion
motion which 'he had to submit were of a personal nature.-- for reduction
or .
which was afterwards to be submitted to them.—
But from this feeling he was relieved, as he only rose to per- But if they considered the two Postmasters-General to be
form a duty open to every Member of Parliament, that of
bringing before the House a case in which a clear reduction no more necessary than seven Lords of the Admiralty, flit.
very ground
could be made. To him it was matter of satisfaction that the were bound to support him. And that was theon which he was anxious to place the question. He did no:
present motion did not involve any of those hardships on in.
see his Honourable Friend the Member for Yorkshire in
nomy for their object.
dividuals which were inseparable from many which had eco-
his place, but he certainly hoped for his vote, if he acted-
When it was proposed to dismiss those
in conformity to his former declaration, that lie should sop-
individuals who either in the field or in official labours had port every reduction which did not involve the safety of the
spent contemplate outh in the aervice of their country, it was pain- State. It his Honourable Friend, therefore, did not con-
ful to the privations to which entry,
it be ex- eider that the office was a necessary one to the public service, he
posed. But when he looked at the case of those who now, or must votethe motion. he opposed it, -
for
who at any time possessed the offices, one of which he meant to
reduce, he could not doubt that the decision of the House the ground that it was indispensable. He trusted that theH •wouldseethe question •the light in ' hichi.e had
House
would be cheerfully acquiesced in, if the motion should be deavoured to place it. If they rejected the motion, they would
carried. It was also a matter of satisfaction that this was not be acting in defiance of the opinion of the country, in derision
a case involving a claim of remuneration. No charge could of its sufferings, and in utter oblivion of all the ' pledges of
be preferred against the department to which he wished to economy which they had given. Ile 'concluded by moving the
direct the attention of the House. It was impossible too highly
followingresolution —" That it is the opinion of this House;
was praise the manner in which the business of the Post-Office that without
: to
,t_
that detriment he, public service, the duties of the
there. carried on, and the activity and courtesy constantly found office •
of Joint Post-master-General maybe performed by one
there. Nor did any blame attach to the Government Job, as
that had originally been,
individual, and the salary of the other be thereby saved to the
"
had ••ontinued, it was to to which he objected, and job as it
be remembered that it had endured in Public- •
good and in bad time ; and it was
.perhaps too much to ex- Mr. ROBINSON said, that although his Noble Friend in
pest from any Government that it would surrender such a bringing forward his motion had thought proper to deprecate
branch of patronage of itself, without receiving a hint from a certain course of opposition to Nth as being unfair, he (Mr.
that House. lt, however, became necessary that it should Robinson) confessed that he felt himself bound to take that
be abandoned ; and he hoped that Ministers, feeling the im. very course as one which imperiously called for the rejection
portance of economy, would give that attention to this sug. of the proposition. With regard to the Bill of 1812; to which
gestion which in its judgment it might fairly demand.— his Noble Friend had alluded, lie for one never assented to
He was not responsible for first bringing the matter forward that Bill, because he held its principle to he erroneous.
•lie
for the discussion of the House. It was not a new question, could not now look at the question in that narrow point of
for he found that two Bills had been introduced to the House view in which his Noble Friend was disposed to do. When he
in 1812-13. The one, being entitled a Bill for abolishing sine- came down to the House, be confessed that he was disposed
cures and offices, the duties of which were executed by Deputy, to discuss it upon those grounds ; but the course of his &obis
he found in Schedule A. a passage which stated " that the duty Friend's argument rendered it necessary that the question
of the Joint Postmaster-Generalship should be executed by should be taken up in its more extended bearings and connec.
1 one person, and the salary of the other be thereby saved to the tions. His Noble Friend admitted, that he expected the
public. It was now to be determined whether the House was success of his motion to lead to similar propositions upon .
less disposed at the present period to come to such a resolution similar grounds. That the principle being adopted, should be
than at the time to which he had referred. This office had carried into further and more extensive operation.—(Hear,
been originally vested in one person only, as the 9th of Queen hear !)—Therefore if this was only to be the precedent for the
Anne expressly declared. This being the case, he thought it reduction of various other offices, it broughedistinctly under
impossible to say that the original intention of Parliament had the view of the House the question whether the influence ought
not been departed from. At least it required more legal to be diminished or not. He knew it was very easy to take
subtlety than he possessed, to prove that one made two. declarations Of Hon. Members, such as that of his Honourable
The language of the Act could not be mistaken. The period Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, that he would vote for
had been called the Augustine age; and certainly, although all reductions consistent with the safety of the State—it
the Acts of Parliament might not be very classical in their was very easy and very convenient to take such sentiments,
construction, they were at least written in good English, and make use of them by way of taunt, coupled with the
which was more than could be said of those passed in more question of whether the safety of the State depended upon
modern days. When the office in question was divided he a Postmaster-General. It was very convenient to do this,
could notsexactly trace, but it doubtless took place soon after but he did not conceive it to be the fair or the enlightened view
the passing of the Act, as there was at that time a great dis. of the question which he had expected from his Noble Friend.
position to create need' offices and places. He could not say' For his own part, he should take this ground, and he was
whether the salary was doubled at the division of the office. prepared to maintain it, that the influence of the Crown
But as the system of remuneration which then prevailed was ought' not to be diminished, and that the proposition of
that of fees, it was most reasonable to suppose that such fees his Noble Friend would tend to produce that effect. He
were doubled. it would be seen, however, that for some titne was aware that this could . not be a popular ground, but
after the appointment of' two Postmasters-General, one of no considerations of that nature ever had deterred, or ever
them assisted in the transacting of official business, so that should. deter him from adopting that conduct which he be-
at least in those days, the offices were not those complete lieved to be in consistence with his duty. If they .examined
and dignified sinecures, which they were now. He also found into all history in all time, they found a certain degree of
in those days the names of Freeling, Craggs, Walpole, and power existed wherever there was a Government, which was
Harris, as performing the duties of the office. With respect to for the benefit of the State so governed. But there must be
the duties of the offices, as they at present stood, it was impos- a line at which this power should stop. The question then be-
sible that their abolition should be. detrimental to the public came that of- where the line should be drawn ? In the present
service. He felt the onus of proof upon this point very much case his Noble Friend had touched very cautiously upon that
lessened by the fact that the House had twice expressed its question ; but he had said enough to shew clearly that he con-
opinion that they ought to be abolished, in the Sinecure Bills sidered the influence of the Crown to be now in a state to be
which had passed. -If the onus were not thus lessened for him, reduced. He, however, was prepared to say that that info-
there was the notorious fact that not one of these officers, much ence was not now in a condition to be reduced. He knew
more both of them, had any duties to perform. Both might be it might be shown that a greater number of offices were now
reduced without any disadvantage to the public. That, how. in existence than m former periods. But that was by no in ais
ever, it was not his object to propose, as he was willing to a proper view of the question, unless they looked at all the
allow there was some satisfaction, if net profit, in having a counteracting causes which had sprung up to oppose—as he
great name at the head of so important an establishment. hoped there always would be opposed—a barrier to the growth
There was another point upon which the Honourable Gentle- of undue influence on the part of the Crown. If thty looked
man said he would make a few observations. It had been at the situation of this country now and compared ,it w.th
said that the responsibility of the -proper collection of the Post its situation in former times, or with that of other countries,
Office revenue was shared by the Post Masters General, they would find that a salutary power had arisen which ren-
and that this was a double security. Now it was so absurdly dered inefficient the influence of the Crown, if exerted for any
preposteious to suppose that one should be a check upon the purposes hostile.to the freedom of the people. Only let theta
other, that no man, he was convinced, could seriously lend his consider the almost universal distribution of knowledge in this
ear to it: A sort f ambiguous opinion had been expressed ,country at the present moment.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
by the Finance Committee of 1817 upon this question. The —He hoped he should be allowed to profess and to feel respect
only reason which made them unfriendly to the abolition, was, for that general knowledge which gave so much value and
that so important a responsibility as the collection of the revs.. strength to public opinion. The progress of information -
nue in this department ought not to be left to one individual.— within the last fifty years was greater than could have been bes.• s.•
But to what would this principle lead ? It must lead to the lieved to be• possible sby those vsho were -living at that. time. -
duplication-of all offices of responsibility. And there were 'Was it 'not a fact that a public man in these days acted user a
many cases in which new offices must be created if that prin. weight of responsibility in the desisions of public opinion,
el* were acted upon. His Right Hon. Friend, the Trea- • which had no existence in former times ? He did not mean

s:iy that a Minister was more subject to personal risk or loss
of pr.verty, but he could not move without having the eye of the
public upon turn at every turning, and that with the public know-
ledge of all his acts. Every thing he did was attended with a
fearful responsibility quite beyond that which pressed upon
'him in times when the influence of the Clown pressed more
directly upon Parliament.—(Hear, hear ! from the Oppo-
ition.)—fle was glad of this. lie was glad of it, because it
operated as a check, which was conducive to the benefit of
all interests. Then, looking at the question as it struck him,
and not in the light in which his Noble Friend wished to
place it, he did say that all these causes combined to prevent
the possibility of his sanctioning any further decrease in
the influence and power of the Crown. His Noble Friend
-saw the convenience, in bringing the question forward upon
:the ground he had chosen. He knew very well that 'many
-votes might he obtained upon the question as a measure of
economy, which would not have supported a distinct proposi-
tion for lessening. the influence of the Crown. That experi-
ment was tried in the last Session, and perhaps his Noble
Friend had the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury's motion in view,
-which proposed the disqualification of all placemen for seats
in that !House. This was brought forward upon the direct
ground of lessening the influence of the Crown in Parliament ;
but the House rejected that proposition. It was impossible
,now to separate the two principles in the present case ; and
unless they were prepared to contend that the influence of the
Crown was too great, they could not support the motion. If
they voted in its favour without taking these things into their
consideration, they would not be doing their duty to the country.
These were his reasons for opposing the motion, and he trusted
he had 'stated them fearlessly and openly. He knew it might
be charged against them, as such imputations had been made,
that they set their faces against all reductions, and that with
the sordid motive of maintaining themselves in power. Such
imputations could not affect them, devoid as they were of all
Foundation: But if ,they had not nerve enough to bear up
against such attacks, they would be totally unfit for the situa-
tions which they filled. His sense of duty compelled him to
meet the motion of his Noble Friend by a negative.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)

Mr. H. GURNEY thought the House would eternally dis-
grace itself. if it rejected'the motion for the sake of keeping up
an office to support the influence of the Crown, which must
only tend to weaken its power. It was nothing but a job for
giving five and twenty hundred pounds a year to a Noble Lord,
forisupporting the existing Administration.
Mr. Alderman C. SMITH trusted that, in the present case,
every honest and loyal man would rally round the Throne, to
protect its just and constitutional privileges. He should expect
that, if the House yielded to the present application, that one
by one, each of the Ministerial Officers of the Crown would be
abolished. Under this impression he should vote against the
motion.

Sir J. SEBRIGHT said, that if his private feelings
were to influence him upon the present occasion, he should
not vote for the motion of the Noble Lord. One of the Noble-
men who held those offices had shewn him the greatest per-
sonal kindness as Lord Lieutenant of the County with which
he was connected, which he believed to be greatly indebted to
that Noble Personage for his liberal attention to its interests.
But he was not standing there as a private individual, and
therefore he must not be actuated by private feelings. His duty
was to vote for the reduction of every office which could possibly
be spared with safety to the State. It did not appear to be con-
tended that there was any danger in reducing a Postmaster-
General ; and however he regretted giving a vote against the
interest of the Nobleman to whom he had alluded, his sense of
duty was paramount to all other considerations.
Mr. H. SUMNER considered that the populace had been
misled at County Meetings, by a cry of" retrenchment," which
would lead to any thing but their substantial relief. He did not
know whether these offices were necessary in point of duty or
not, but he should oppose the motion because he thought that
instead of the power of the Crown being too great, it was the
popular influence which bad increased beyond its proper limits.
Sir J. VORKE said, that after the vote which he had given
-the other night, he wished to explain that which he should give
upon the present occasion. He understood the office in ques-
tion to be opposed up on the ground of its being useless, and de-
fended upon that of its being material to theinfluence of the
Crown. He had always been taught to believe that the power
.of the Crown amongst a loyal and a free people did not want to
be bolstered up by a half dozen useless offices. If both of these
Postmasters General were wanted, it appeared that they were
not both on duty at once, and therefore as they took watch and
watch about, they ought to divide one salary between them.—
Be should support the motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. DENISON understood the observations of his Honour-
able Colleague, with regard to the cry of "retrenchment," to
apply to him. He begged to state that he should always be
an advocate for retrenchment the most unsparing. In reply to
the doctrines of the Right Honourable •Gentleman opposite,
he would say that the power of the Crown had increased and
would increase.

Mr. FREE MA NTLE was decidedly hostile to the proposi-
-tion of the Noble Lord. He conceived that he should be de-
fieient in his duty if he did not state his objections to the man-
ner in whith the question had been brought forward. The
Noble Lord had put the question upon the ground of saving
.2,5001. a year. Now if this had been the whole case, and
the contemplated saving had been 251. no man would have
been more willing than he to support it. But the ques-
tion ought not to be put in this narrow point of view. They
ought to look to its general effect upon the country, and to
remember that it went to destroy the most ancient institutions
which hrd operated so much good to the people. If they went
from one department to another and said, " here is an office
well conducted, but it will be as well managed by a clerk,"
they would go on until they had destroyed all the ancient in-
stitutions of the country. Upon the question of Crown influence,
he was convinced that so far from its being increased, it had
been considerably lessened of late years. Upon these grounds
he should vote against the motion, of the Noble Lord.
Mr. S. WORTLEY should not have addressed the House
but he understood he had been alluded to in his absence by ;
his Noble Friend the Mover of the Resolution. His mind had
been occupied by this question, to which he had paid serious at-
tention. He did not mean to say, nor could any one pre-
tend to sayohat this office was necessary to the safety of the
.State. But the question was, where did Gentlemen opposite
mean to lead them ? A week had scarcely elapsed, since two
places which were under the influence of the Crown were se-
vered from it. To-night another was proposed, and to-morrow,
a whole Board 'was to, be brought before the House. There
must be a point at which they must stop, and if the country
were not prepared to say that the Government ought to be-
corlie more of a republic, they could not expect these
things to be granted. If Gentlemen were disposed to
stop here, he should not mind this office. But if this were
to be led on to other offices in the same manner, he would
not vote for the present motion. He held it to be necessary
to the safety of the country to allow a sufficient influence in
the Crown.; and so long as he had a seat in Parliament, he
trusted his constituents would not expect him to act otherwise
than his sense of _duty prompted. He never would consent to,
beat down the power of the Crown. If it was told to his con-
Itituents, and misrepresented, as what he had said had been
before now, he should say, that he came there with the inten-
lion of doing his duty honestly and conscientiously ; but if
they wanted him to come there to pull down the power of the
King, they must get some other person, for he would never
consent to do it.—(Cheers.)

Mr. BANKES understood it to be contended that offices,
however expensive and useless to the country, were to be
_kept up to support the influence of the Crown.—(Hear,
hCar, hear !)--He had always heard, from the first authority
in that House, that the influence of the Crown was confined to
the necessary offices of the State.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—These
were the legitimate sources of patronage, and the only
legitimacy which he recognised. All offices while they ex-
ist2d should be at the pleasure of the Crown to a greater degree
than he thought they had been. But when Parliament
thought them useless, then only it was that they should inter-
• fere with them to abolish them. The Noble Lord hr.d alluded
to two Bills which he had the honour to propose, and the Right
Honourable Gentleman he believed to have suppqrted them.
He was quite sure that the Honourable Gentleman on the
second bench (Mr. Freemantle) did, and he thought his
Right Hon. Friend did also. It was generally his good for-
tune to agree with him, and whenever he differed from him it
. .

was with-vei.y great pain. He had the highest opinion of his
talents tnd integrity, and he would not say more in his pre-
sence. He thought the Noble Lord had just gone far enough
with his resolution, and not too far. He had gone just as far
-as he Cllr. B.) went in 1812 ; and there was no difference
in the cirzumstances of the two periods which could induce the
'House to change its decision. With regard to the argument of
not knowing when to stop, he saw nothing in this Resolution
which pledged any Honourable Member to any ulterior course
whatever. Reductions of other offices might be proposed, and
some of which he should support, whilst others he would op-
pose. He should feel himself, at perfect liberty to exercise
his own discretion upon every individual case which came
before the House. He had not heard one word advanced in
spport of this office upon the ground of its utility. He per-
fectly agreed with the Noble Lord in viewing the question
.as one of just economy, and not as attempting to pull down
a long constituted office to lessen the influence of the Crown.
It was only acting upon the principle of reducing every thing as
far as was safe and just to the country, which they had pledged
themselves to do in the address which he had the honour to
glove in 1821. He thought Ministers were not redeeming that
pledge by opposing the motion of an Hon. Baronet the other
night. If he was to take that as a specie enof their economy, he
should be exceedingly disappointed. He supported the motion,
-because not one word had been said in defence of the office,
spon the ground of its necessity. Neither was it, as had been re-

presented, an office of such ancient standing. It was not equal
in antiquity and importance to many of the offices which they
had abolished in the Exchequer and elsewhere. It had not been
dignified by peat names in remote periotWof history, nor had
its possessors the power of turning it to the advantage of the
country. He trusted the House would go, along with him in
supporting the motion'of the Noble Lord. •
Mr. PEEL said, his Noble Friend who had commenced the
discussion liad treated the question with reference solely to
the duties of the partieulir office. He was followed by his
Right. Honourable Friend (Mt: Robinson), who had met the
question on the general ground of principle, and had declared
that the proposition ab initio to be resisted as an attempt to
diminish the legitimate influence of the Crown. ' He did not,
however, understand that his Right Honourable Friend in
any way conceded that the office was unnecessary—(Hear?)—
because he had met it on more enlarged grounds, which he
thought sufficient to decide the question, and which were
enough for the limits of a speech. He hoped, however, be
should not treat the subject unfairly, if be combined both
the elements of the discussion which bad been heretofore
taken separately, and considered in the first place whether
the particular office was so entirely inefficient as it had been
represented to be; in the second place, what effect its aboli-
tion would have ou the general interests of the State. On
the first part of the question be should submit some consi-
derations, which, if not conclusive in themselves, it was at
least fit that the House should advert to. In considering the
nature of a particular office it was first fit to inquire when it
was founded, in order to ascertain the circumstances which
might have called for it. Antiquity was not in itself a woof
of the importance of an office, but, on the other hand, if it
was created under temporary circumstances, which had pass-
ed away, a very strong argument in favour of the abolition
of an office was afforded. They were now constantly referred
to 92 ; the establishment of that time was the standard to
which every thing teas to be brought. If the office had been
created since that time, in consequence of the war that had
intervened, there was a fair presumption that it should be
abolished. He referred back to 92; but it was sixteen bun-

. _
dred and ninety-two, and in that year he found the office in
existence, and held by two joint Postmaster-General.—
(Hear!)--That therefore was a slight presumption in itself in
favour of the office; but there might have been, it was true,
such a diminution in the duties of the office, and the nature
of it might have so changed, that that presumption might
be detfroyed. Was there any such diminution ?—(Hear)—
He asked the House to look at the duties and the efficiency
of the office, as measured by the Revenue which it controll-
ed, and they would see that the office established at the Re-
volution had had a constant and gradual increase of duties
assigned to it:—(Hear!)--He only said that this was a pre-
sumption in favour of the office; but it certainly was a strong
presumption, if they found that of an office established at
such a time the duties had since been quintupled. He should
only take a few periods in the present reign to shew the in-
crease of the Post. Office Revenues In 1773 the Revenue of the
Post Office was 430,0001.: in 178,3 it was 434,0001.; in 1793

it was 705,0001. ;and in IBIS, and since, it was upwards of two
millions.—(Hear !)—So much as to the increase of the duties
of the office, from which the House would judge whether
it could be presiimed to be entirely inefficient and useless.—
As to the particular testimony as to the office, they had
an authority beyond all exception, in the Committee of 1797 i
for never was there a Committee to which such general
amt just compliments had been paid, without reference to
party. What was the Report of that Committee ? Why, that
on account of the importance of the establishment to com-
merce and to the revenue, it- was worthy of consideration
whether there should not be a Board of Commissioners, as in
the other great departments of the revenue. The Committee
stated truly, that much depended on the skill in making the
various and numerous contracts:. Now the measure sug-
gested by the Committee would have greatly increased ,the
influence of the Crown ; for, supposing five Commissioners
were appointed at 1,000. a year, though there was not more
expence than with two joint Post-masters at 2,5001. a year,
there could be no question that the patronage would tie aug-
mented by the distribution. The Committee observed a:so,
that the patronage in the hands of the Post-office was most
extensive and important, and required much knowledge and
considerable attention to the characters of individuals.—

(Hear, hear ! from the Opposition.)—Now what was the pro-
position of one Hon. Member? That it should all be trans-
ferred to the Treasury.—(Hear, bear!)—So he understood
the proposition, that Mr.'Freeling should be the executive
officer. The proposition of the Committee of 1797 was sup-
ported by the Committee, on the ground that greater regula-
rity and dispatch would be obtained front a Commission. But
the business of the Post-office could not he managed with
greater regularity and dispatch than since 1797 ; and it was
not fair,in acknowledging the result, toattribute all the merit
of this universally acknowledged result to a subordinate offi-
cer of the Board. Certainly, if the question was between firm
and the Committee, of 1797, whether the Board of Commis-
sioners should be appointed, he had no doubt the Gentlemen
opposite to him would hold his argument to be valid. Then
came the Committee of 1817, which bad, indeed, after the
experience the country had had, decided against the proposal
for putting the management of the Post-office under a Board
of Commissioners of inure than two, but still was not pre-
pared to say that the business should be managed by only
one. The duties of the office were of a peculiar nature, not
only as regarded the amount of the revenue, but the amount
of the expenditure. The revenue amounted to two millions;
the expenditure was as much as half a million. Now all the
payments were under warrant of the Joint Post-master, and
Mr. Freeling, whose testimony on this point would perhaps
not be taken, had stated his opinion that there should be two
Lords. :As for the evidence of Lord Chesterfield, no inference
unfavourable to the office could be drawn from it. Being
asked, what was the result when there was a difference of opi-
nion on any subject referred ? he answered, that thy business
was so amicably managed that a difference seldom occurred,
but that if any did occur, the junior would naturally yield to
the senior. Now this was necessarily the case in all co-ordi-
nate jurisdictions—the least experienced officer generally
gave way. The salary of the Joint Post-master had been fixed
in 1785 at 5,0001., the present amount. Had they heard
nothing of economy then ? Had there been no reform of the
Civil Llst: no regulation of political, household, and useless
offices.—(Hear, hear!)—Did Mr. Burke, however, at that
time, when in the full career of his reforms, touch the office
of Joint Postmaster, the Revenue under whose management
was one third of its present amount? The only two State
Offices which Mr. Burke proposed to touch, were the Presi-
dents of the Board of Trade and the Third Secretary of State.
The Office of the Postmaster-General mustbave been under
consideration, but lie left it untouched.--I(Hear!)—When
they saw, therefore, that Mr. Burke, in laying down his
large and luminous principles for the management of every
department of the State had thought it unfit to be abolished
—when the duties had since been trebled—when it was
proved that there were daily matters of reference on the most
important matters—when the Revenue managed was two
millions, and Site actual payments 500,0001., he could not
consent to treat it as an entirely useless and inefficient office.
—(Hear, hear, hear!)—He now approached with much greater
difficulty the consideration of the other branch of the subject,
which was at once one of the utmost delicacy and magnitude.
The Right Hon. Gentleman excelled in the diffusion and
spread of knowledge throughout the country, which was to
be attributed in a great measure to the Executive Govern-
ment, and it would be a strange return on the part of that
people to seek any abridgment of the legitimate influence of
the Crown. But the people did not appear to solicit that
abridgement. What the influence of the Crown ought to be,
it was, as he had said before, very difficult to define. But
when he found the office to which the motion referred had
existed at the Revolution, and had existed ever since, he felt,
it fair to conclude that the maintenance of ,that office was
essential to the due support of the constitutional influence of
The Crown. Still the abolition of this office was called for
by the Gentlemen on the other side, on the score of economy.
In discussing the several propositions which had emanated
from that side on the subject of economy, he had heard such
doctrines, as really served to excite his surprise. For instance,
the Hun. Member for Sandwich, stating that he had in con-
sequence of a decrease of business reduced four clerks, argued
from thence that a similar reduction should take place in the
several public offices of the State; but he (Mr. P.) could never
allow the conduct of any commercial establishment, however
eminent, to determine the proceedings of those who held the
highest offices in the State.—(Applause.)—Again it was urged,
that the salaries attached to high offices should be reduced to
a comparatively trivial amount. But if this system were
adopted, the consequence must be, either that the must im-
portant and confidential offices in the State would be con-
signed to persons who could not afford to serve the country
for nothing, or the administration of the Government would
fall into the hands of a wealthy oligarchy.—(Applause.)—Here
the Right Hon. Gentleman quoted the authority of Mr. Burke,
against the doctrine of calling upon public men to act gra-
tuitously. For what said that Right Honourable Gentleman
upon the introduction of his plan fur economical Reform—
" I will even go so far (said Mr. Burke) as to affirm, that if
men were willing to serve in such situations without salaries,
they ought not to be permitted to do it." For, added this
great philosophical writer most wisely—" ordinary services
must be secured by the motives to ordinary integrity. I do
not hesitate to say, that that. State which lays its foundation
in rare and heroic virtues, will be sure to have its superstruc-
ture in the basest profligacy and corruption." Hence the
doctrines at present preached with regard to the allowances
proper to he made to public men, formed no part of Mr.
Burke's plan of Reform. But these doctrines -had not fortu-
nately that influence upon this House which. its authors de-
sired. Foi the House, in all it• public grants, was governed
by its-sense of public duty and the maintenance of proper

station, without regard to ansother consideration. Thus it,
made a grant to the Queen Ist Session, although her Ma-
jesty thought proper in the coirse If the discussion to ex-
press her purpose to refuse tint grant—but still the House
determined to do its duty. widthe rant was adopted. There
were other points connected sith ttis question, upon which
however he did not mean inudi to (well, although 'they in-
volved a diminution of the intheme of any public servant by
increasing the burthen of bit utice. The office mikbtuo
doubt be still the same in the eye d ambition, notwithstatideo
ing the diminution of its influrice;hrough the increase of its
business. But let-the House ',what the increase of business
in the Trea-sury, for instance, as asample of the other public
offices. At the. Treasury. in 1193 the number of papers re-
ceived was 3,903; in 1815, 15,0 CD; and in 1821 and 1822,
about 20,000 each. Thus it appezred, that in about 20 years
the actual business at the Treasury had 'increased nearly
eight-fold ; and could any mat stppose, that when such was
the increase, time public office at the Treasury could be so
much the object of ambition is Nibleinen or Gentlemen ?
Yet such superfluity of business was found to prevail in almost
all the public offices .of the State. But to return to the sub-
ject immediately before the :louse he did not mean to say,
in answer to a Gentleman on the other side, whether time ac-
ceptance of the office under consideration was essential to the
substantial safety of the Clown: but he would say, that its
maintenance was material 1. the substantial interest of the
country. If, however, the resent office were abolished upon
the ground stated, it would be hardly possible to say where

the principle, or its appliotion, would terminate, or how
much it might be extended. The Right Hon. Gentleman
concluded with declaring, Lhat on the most conscientious
grounds he telt himself called upon to vote against the Motion
beim e the House.—(Loud 'cheers.)
Sir-J. MACKINTOSH rose and said, that if it were not for
the introduction of extranems topics, he had not intended to
trouble the House this evening' but merely meant to give a
silent vote in favour of the Noble Lord's Motion. But there
were other questions connected with that motion, which, as
he should shave by and by, were really the only subject for
consideration tonight; and these questions involving novel-
, ties more dangerous and alarming to the constitutional li-
berty of England than any he had ever heard in the coun-
try, much less in any intelligent and independent assembly,
he could not forbear from taking notice of them. These no-
velties were indeed such as, according to the language of
Gentlemen on the other side, apply to the very root of the
Constitution.—(Applause.)—lt was indeed for the very first

time alleged, that it was necessary to the stability arid in- '
fluence of the Crown to preserve useless offices.—(Hear, •
hear, hear !)—An Honourable Gentleman had .argued, that
useless offices were only to be regarded as sinecures or as pen-
sions, fur the servants of the• Crown, which ought not to he
disturbed; and for this doctrine the Honourable Gentleman
quoted the observations of Mr. Burks. Whether Mr. Burke
were or were not right, in supporting such an opinion, be
(Sir J.) would not then stop to inquire. But it was to be re-
collected, that since Mr. Burke had expressed that opinion,
an arrangement had been made .for'authorising the Crown to
grant pensions to meritorious public servants, and therefore
the establishment of the system of sinecures could no longer
be deemed necessary. Still the Gentleman who spoke so
stoutly as second in the debate, made a gallant effort to
maintain the proposition that useless offices ought to be pre-
served, in order to preserve the influence of the Crown. The
Right Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, had not, with
all his zeal, attempted to assert that the existence of two
Postmasters-General was necessary, in order to perform the
duties of the Post-Office; hot the Right Honourable Gentle-
man had seemed ter argue, that as these offices were ancient,
they were therefore efficient. It should, however. be within
the recollection of the Right Honourable Gentleman, for it
happened only a few years ago, that several offices, which
were very ancient indeed, which were as ancient as the Plan
tagenets, were abolished in 1812 and 1813, because from
circumstances those offices had become obsolete and super-
annuated. Upon what .principle, then, should the office of

. .
Second Postmaster-General be maintained ? Several of the
offices to which he lyiki alluded had existed in 1792, as
well as that of the second Postmaster-General, and yet
they were now no -more, because they became palpably
useless. But what office could he more useless than that

to which the motion referred ? The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, in defending this office, had truly said, that the busi-
ness of the Post-office had increases! Live-fold since 1792. But
did this increase of official business require a proportionate
increase of Postmasters General ? For if so, the Post-office
should have flee Postmasters General instead of two ;—(a
laugh, and hear, hear!)—and the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
instead of being engaged in arguing against the reduction of
one Postmaster, should be eagerly occupied in pressing for an
-increase. But the fact is, that the increase of business at the
Post,offiee furnished no apology whatever for augmenting the
Postniasters General, who had, in truth, nothir6, to do with
the management of that increase, or with the performance of
the duties of the office. The Bight Hon. Gentleman had ob-
served. that great injury might result to the department of
the Post-office, if the appointment of the several officers com-
petent to do the duty of that, department were transferred
from the Nobleman who usually presided over it, to the Trea..
_ .

sury, or to tiny other public oilier. Now he (Sir J..) did not
wish to commit himself so far with official men, as to allege
that they had framed any particular document for the distri-
bution of patronage, which had not yet appeared before the
public; but he could say, that a strong rumour was afloat
that arrangements were already made, and orders issued by
the Treasury; to transfer to that department the patronage
of the Post-otlice, including the appointment of deputy Post-
masters, &c., this being deemed by the Treasury a more con-
venient way of conductiw, business than was afforded by the
the present system. Hillis rumour were correct, the appre-
_

pension of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the transfer o

patronage could nut apply' against the • !notion, before the
House. But, whether correct or'not, how could it be neces-
sary to have two Postmasters General to imperintend the dis-
position of places at the Post•ollice, and that both these Post-
masters should have a large salary?—Such appointments for
such a purpose could certainli, not be 'necessary. In propo-
sing that there should be only one Postmaster Genera 4 his
Noble Friend surely proposed quite enough ; and lie recom-
mended that this one Postmaster General should have an
ample salary. But it could never enter into his Noble Friend's
mind, that it could he requisite to have one Peer of the
realm watching over the conduct of another in the appoint-
ment of deputy Postmasters or Clerks, or in the discharge
of any other trivial business connected with tit.. office of

POstacaster General. No, one Prer must be sufficient for
such pnrposes ; and his Noble Friend could never mean
any such reflection upon the character of. that Great Body,
with which he was so intimately connected, as to suppose
the contrary.—(Hear, hear, hear')--He (Sir J.) could never
think of referring to former debates upon any subject, because
such irregularity was calculated to lead to perpetual litiga-
tion and confusion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, no-
ticing a smile on the Treasury Bench (from Lord London-
derry, as we could learn), observed, that that smile might be
applied to others ; but as he had never taken part ►n any re-
ference to the debates of a former day, he was as much en-

titled as any Gentleman who heard him to reprehend a prac-
tice at once so likely to lead to unpleasant controversies, and
so directly involving a violation of the duties prescribed in
both Houses of Parliament. He now came, the Learned
Gentleman said, to the question immediately before the
House, and to the doctrines advanced to warrant a resistance
to the motion. The Right. Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down had maintained that this office of second Postmaster-
General was essential to the good government of the country,
while he at •the same time said that it was very difficult to
define that influence of the Crown which this office was re-
quired to support. So that here was a doctrine Which was
calculated at once to put an end to the consideration of any
further retrenchment or economy—to pufa bar indeed to all
inquiry upon the subject. But the Hon. Member for Corfe
Castle, whom he did not then see in his place, had already
discussed this part of the question in particular, with so
much ability and intelligence, that it was not- perhaps ne-
cessary to discuss the principle farther. But he begged
leave to add a few words. Influence he could not regard
as a primary principle for the maintenance of the Crown,
but merely as an appendage to that institution which
he hoped and trusted would long continue to exist for
the happiness and honour of this country. But while the
Crown had such an immense revenue as that of 60,000,0001.
at its disposal, with 70,000 soldiers and a considerable nary
at its command, the patronage of the Law and the Church,
and the disposal of the great offices in India, as well as in our

other numerous colonies, was it not quite 'absurd to talk of
the necessity of maintaining a useless public oflice in this
country, in order to uphold the influence of the Crown ? If
instead of calling for the abolition of this useless office, it was
proposed to deprive the Crown of any one of its thirty-five
Colonies, which were so much the sources of influence, there
might be some apology about this outcry against an attempt
to reduce the influence of the Crown. But at present this
outcry was quite senseless, especially as the influence of the
Crown had so much increased of late years—as it had advanced
indeed from year to year. Yet the night Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last had stated that this influence was undefinable.
But how different was the language held by the then Member
for Pete' borough, who was now Member for Hertford, upon
the discussion of the measure for appointing a Vice-Treasurer
for Ireland. For that Hon. Gentleman then mentioned,
and very properly, that it was one of the happy peculiarities
of our Constitution, that the influence of the Crown had a
natural limit, which was tolerably well known But at the
present day, when such reductions had been made in the
lower classes of public officers, as he should certainly have
deprecated at an early period of the Session, had the state of
his health enabled him to address the House, was it to be

borne that an office of high rank and great emolument should
remain without even any diminution of revenue, although
that office was of acknowledged, or at least of demonstrative,
inefficiency ?—(Hear, hear, hear !). What would the public
say to such an arrangement, particularly when it was held
out by Ministers' that the iehintion of such an office pro.
ceeded from a solicitude for the influence of the Crown ?
Were they not likely to say, that while the Crown possessed
such extensive means of influence, as htbad already de-
scribed, that institution must be in a verfiottering rotten
state indeed that could require the suppoct& an useless
office. But instead of considering the retention orssuch an
office as essential to the legitimate influence of the Crown,
were not the people rather likely to regard that retention as
mere corruption ?—(Hear, hear !). He was glad to hear
the Right Honourable Secretary express his joy at the spread

of knowledge and intelligence -amimg the people, and that
spread was no doubt going on very rapidly. The diffusion
of knowledge had indeed become most extraordiniry, espe-
cially of late years, and it would extend still further, what-
ever might be the conduct of the Government. But how came
it not to occur to the mind of the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, when he
so tenaciously insisted upon the maintenance of the influence
of the Crown, that it would never be necessary to call in
the aid of that influence, if the measures of Government were

in accordance with .the interest of an enlightened people?
And the people of this country were truly enlightened.—
Therefore the Parliament and the Government should study
to consult their wishei and promote their views, but above
all things to avoid any discord or litigation with such a peo-
ple.—(Hear, bear !).—The Right Hun. Gentleman would not,

Sihe r 3.) could assure him, succeed in any degree in recon-
ciling the people to the rejection of the present motion, al-
though be had so ingeniously endeavoured to bring in a regi-
ment front the enemy's camp, to fight his battles; but in rain.
If Government supported the interests of the people, they re-
quired not to employ the influence of the Crown ; and if they
opposed those interests, with the opinion upon which they
were founded, they might yet feel the folly and the danger
of employing that influence in their support. Addressing
himself to the Country Gentlemen, who had of late made
so many pledges in favour of retrenchment and econo-
my, he exhorted them not to violate their pledges up-
on this occasion. He begged them to consider that the
same principle which urged them to vote for the aboli-
tion of the two junior Lords of the Admiralty should operate
with more force on this occasion, as the inutility of the office '
alluded to in the motion was so much more palpable ; for
there were many arguments used in favour of the junior Lords
• of the Admiralty, which were not in the slightest degree ap-
plicable in this instance, as in the one case there was some
attendance or some duty performed, while in this case there
was none whatever. Of precedents and authorities for sup-
porting this motion, he could produce the strongest; nut
merely front the Reports of the Committees of 1797 and 1818,
but from the Acts of that House in 1812 and 1813, by which
Acts several great Offices, comprehending the 'fellers of the
Exchequer, and the Justices in Ayr, and others, which were
among the most ancient Offices in the country, were totally
abolished, because they were useless; and yet what could be
more useless than the office which the motion sought to set
aside, and which was defended by Ministers solely upon the
'pretence that it was necessary to the maintenance of the in-
fluence of the Crown.—(Loud cheer:.)
Mt. ROBINSON and Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH mutu-
ally explained,
Mr. WYNN said, he bad supported the Bill for diminish-
ing the influence of the Crown, because a power to reward

public services was substituted. Much obloquy had been
previously thrown upon sinecures, and it was considered ad-
viiable to provide for public services in another mode. He
admitted the merits of the Secretary of the Post•otlice ; but
he could not agree to entrust so extensive a public depart-
relent to his sole management ; especially as a political con-

nectiou was necessary between Ministers and the higher
public officers. He believed it was by no means the wish of
the people to strip the Crown of its legitimate influence,
which was the best safe-guard of the Constitution.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he would state
shortly the grounds on which he should ask for the vote of the
House. The question had been so 'powerfully argued by his
three lion. Friends, that it would he only necessary for him
to touch on some of the arguments used on the other side.—
The true view to be taken of the question was, not to rest
it on any consideration of the influence of the Crown, or of
the functions of the office itself, but on both combined. He
was as ready as any person in that House to disclaim the
doctrine of suppotting useless offices, with a view merely to
the influence of the Crown, that sort of corrupt influence
that might be employed to prevent the proper discharge of
public duties. The lion. and Learned Gentleman (Sir J.
Mackintosh) contended, that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Peel) had completely closed the chapter of retrenchment by
the line of argument be adopted. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman seemed to think, that by refusing assent to the
proposition before the House' nothing further in the way, of
reduction could be expected. The feelings of Govern-
ment on this subject could not be more distinctly proved,
than by referring to the measure submitted to the
House the other night by his Right Honourable Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer). The House would
recollect, that besides the reduction then proposed in
some departments, there were others in contemplation,
and Commissions were at that time actually inquiring
into every establishment in the State, with a view to any re-
duction that could be made consistently with the public ser-
vice. In considering the present question, they must look at
it not merely with a view to retrenchment or influence ; they
must see how the machine of Government was likely to be
affected by the abolition of the offices. When he said this,
he distinguished it entirely from the Army and the Navy.
In speaking of the machine of Government, he considered it
as depending on certain great offices through which the power
of the Crown was administered, and in this view the office
now under consideration could not, he contended, be abo-
lished. If it could be proved that the Crown possessed an
excess of unconstitutional influence, then he would admit that
his argument was at au end. It was flying away altogether
from the question, to consider the high offices of Government
merely on pecuniary grounds. It was never the doctrine in
this country, that no offices were to be maintained but such
as gave full anti adequate employment to those who filled them.
It was impossible that the machine of Government could
go on without the existence of offices, the duties of which
were compatible with seats both in that and the other House
of Parliament. He had no hesitation in declaring, that
if offices were abolished, because there was riot full employ-
ment for those at the head of them, the machine of Govern-
ment would be necessarily destroyed. They often beard from
the other side of the Haase that nothing could be done with-
out a reform of Parliament—that it was the only way of pro-
curing an effectual check to Government. This, be thought,
would be a most effectual mode of reform, for it would de-
prive Government altogether of the means of carrying on
the public service- He begged the House to recollect, that
he did not oppose the motion as one for the abmilition of a
mere sinecure office. It was not an office of that description,
nor did he think his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes) was bound
to support it, merely because it had been mentioned in -time
schedule of the Bill he brought in in 1813. Parliament
gave no authority at that time to press the abolition of
the office, for, in fact, when thB subject had been more
fully considered, it was excluded from the Bill. It af-
terwards became a subject of consideration with the Fi-
nance Committee. They did not consider it a sinecure,
and their opinion was, that it would not be desirable to
have no more than time Postmaster General. The Gentle-
men oppbsite, he knew, were fond of running down the
Finance Committee ; but there was another, that of 1797, the
justice and propriety of whose opinions were never question-
ed. Did they say the office was useless, and ought to be sup-
pressed? They did not ; and he would contend, that if the
business of the Post-oflice were committed to one Postmaster-
general, it would introduce the worstand the greatest inno-
vation that had ever been made in the collection of the re-
venue.--(Hear! froni the Opposition.)—lf a plurality was
judged necessary in the Customs, the Excise, the Stamps,
even in the Hackney-coaches—if no one branch of'the revenue
was entrusted to a single person, he believed it would not be
a very sound or safe practice to entrust the Post-office to a
single individual. It would be rather a bold experiment to
make a trial of collecting 2,000,0001. of revenue, with the
superintendance of only one officer. In the attempt to
save by these means two thousand five hundred pounds,
he believed in his conscience they would lose a hundred
fold. Disclaiming the idea of its being a sinecure, believing
oilices of this kind necessary to keep the machine of Govern-
ment in action, combining these and other considerations al-
luded to with! what he judged to he the best fiscal admini-
stration of the revenue, he would oppose the motion. He
called upon every Honourable Gentleman to state his sen-
timents with candour and firmness, like his Honourable
Friend the Member for Yorkshire (Mr S. Wortley), careless
of any clamour that might be raised against him.—(Loud
cries of Hear! from the Opposition.)—He trusted the gen-
tlemen of England would follow the example of his Hon.
Friend, that they would openly and manfully declare their
sentiments, careless of what party they might offend. By
crouching to the vile spirit that was abroad, which, under the
cloak of retrenchment, sought for something more, they
would only betray their duty, and by ill-directed efforts to
save, would only betray their country.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that if the Noble Lord meant by
not crouching to the spirit that was abroad, that the opinions
of the people were not to be attended to,
,_ he differed very
much from him. It was the duty of the House to decide on
the utility of an office when the subject was brought before
them. The Committee of 1797 admitted the office to be use-
less, for they said that it ought tp be regulated by a Cons-

mission, in the same way as the other branches of the reve-
nue. He was convinced that the country and the Govern-
ment would go on better without such offices, and that the
legitimate influence of the Crown would be strengthened by
abolishing them.
Sir 1. COFFIN supported the motion. He observed that
the Postmasters-General did not do any duty, and therefore
he thought they should be both abolished.

Lord —NORMANBY, in reply, said, that after the gra-
ious communication made from the Crown, which no person
,heard with more gratitude than himself, he thought it rather
hard that the Crown should be put forward as the means of
defending a place which was one of mere Ministerial pa-
tronage.

Ayes 159
Noes
_ _ _ 184

Majority —25 •
ORDNANCE RETURNS.
Upon our re-admission to the Gallery, we found
Mr. HUME on his legs, but from the noise that prevailed
in the House, we could not learn the nature of his observa- •
tions. We understood them to apply to the votes for the
Ordnance Estimates of last year, which he said required ex-
planation, before the House was called upon to rote for the
same service this year. He particularly alluded to the vote
of 10,0001. for " Works at Demerara.'" Why an item of
expenditure for the Colonies should appear in the Ord-
nance Estimates he knew not; but he knew that Deme-
rara was well able to pay its own expences, and there-
fore should draw nothing Irons this country. When the
House looked at the sums expended upon the Staff, and
other Establishments of that Island, they would see, that if
it was able to support that which could not be necessa-
ry, there was no occasion to call upon that House to vote
money for any works whatever. With a view to put the
House in possession of information on this head, he should
move for a return of all appointments fur that' colony, civil
and military. He was sure it would be found that there were
many appointments made in time of war, which were now use-
lessly 'continued. But he particularly wished to impress
upon that House, that while that colony was able to pay
7,0001. a year to a Governor, and 2,5001. to a Major Chap-
man, who also held a situation as Ordnance Storekeeper,
they bad no right to money from this country for any
works front which we were to derive no benefit. The
first return for which he should move was, to know in
what way a sum of 35,0001. voted in the Ordnance Esti-
mates for 1821, to defray charges incident to the Tower and
Forts in different parts of the kingdom, had been applied.
Mr. WARD said, that with regard to Ibe observations the
Hon. Heinber had made relative to Demerara, he
.should
leave his Hon. Friend behind bins (Mr. Wilmot) to answer
him on that point, as he was much more competent to do so
than himself. He would however generally state, that the
suns voted for that Colony was to save the property of the
Colony from the inroad of the sea. With regard to the
other items on which the Honourable Member had remark-
ed; he must express• his surprise that any comments had,
been made, since be (Mr. Ward) had agreed to the produc-
tion of the Return. He had spoken to the Master-General
of the Ordnance on the subject of the Return, and his answer
was that lie had not the slightest objection to it, as far as
regarded the information required by it. As it affected
that question, he rather wished that any Hon. Member of Par- •
liament should come and inspect the interior of the Department
himself; but he observed that if returns were required em-
bracing such immense details, considerable expence must be
incurred to furnish them, as well as delay,lnow that the De-
partment was reduced to the lowest scale. And he must warn
the House, that in case of a continuance of such motions for
Returns, it would become necessary to have an item in the
Estimates for extra labour. With regard to any houses that
belonged to the public, but which were let by the Officers of
the Ordnance, he could only say that if such a practice ex-
isted, it would he put a stop to, and the spare houses or
apartments let for the benefit of the public.
Mr. WILMOT begged to acquaint the House, that the
item of 10,0001. for Demerara, remarked upon by the Hon.
Member (Mr. Hume), was merely an item on account. It
was to be expended in works necessary for the defence of the
colony, and to be defrayed out of its revenue, A claim had
been founded by the colony to its being defrayed by this
Country, in consideration of their having at a former period
given up a gang of negroes ; but it had been replied to by his
Majesty's Governmeat that the works were isot for mili-
tary defence, but for the protection of colonial property.—
(Hear, hear !)
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. HUME then moved for similar Returns relative to Use
application of the sums voted for rB2l, of 15,0001. to furnish
beds and bedsteads; 40,0001. for stores, stating the prices
and amount of stores, and time when purchased; 14,3551.
for the Clerk of Ordnance Work ; the gstimate of the Work
to he done for 10,0001. granted for Demerara ; together with
a list of all the 'houses and apartments belonging to the per-
sons in the Ordnance Department, which are not occupied
by them, but let to others. The Hon. Member .observed,
that be did not think the country ought to give any money
on account for the protection of the Cotton or Sugar Planta-
tions of the Colony of Demerara. That COlony should pro-
tect its own property.
Mr. GOULBURN said that it was a very erroneous idea
that the object of the vote of money for Demerara was to pro-
tect cotton or sugar plantations. It. was to prevent the seat
breaking in upon the principal town there—Kingston; and
as the Government barracks were in the immediate neigh-
bourhood of that town, this country possessed a sufficient in-
terest in the matter to justify the present advance.
After a few words from Mr. BENNETT, the question was
put upon the different motions, and carried in the affirmative'