The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 0, 1849.

SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY. ' adoption of the report, end that a committee of inquiry,
.
The usual had-yearly general meeting of the preprie- n"'''-ng of M ears. Dickson, F. C. Smith, L. Mozlei,
M. Ryan, and S. G. Walker, be appoint, d to investigate
tors of the above railway was held yesterday, at the
the affairs of the company, and to report to an ajourned
Bridge House Hotel. The meeting was called for one
p
o'clock, but long before that time the large ball-room
meeting, to be held on the 12th of A Mr. KINNARD-ril next. ,
at the top of the hotel was filled with shareholders. ,one of the recentl y elected directors
Soon after one the directors, headed by Mr. James seconded the motion, and in doing so took occasion
Macgregor, the chairman, entered the room; their ap-
to comment upon the unseemly division which had taken
Place pearance was the signal for slight manifestations of sp-
lace in the direction. It was quite impossible that the
company could be successfully carried on while an ill-
Valise, but it would be difficult to say whether the cost-
piiment was intended for Mr. Macgregor or Mr. Martin feeling existed between particular members of the board
Luther Pritchard, the deputy-chairman, who is at issue of management—(Hear, hear.) The proprietors, then,
with the majority of the board upon the question of ap- must determine whether Mr. M. L. Pritchard and his
two supporters should remain in office and find their
pointing a committee of inquiry.
Mr. GEORGE HERBERT, the secretary, having read own colleagues, or whether they would continue their
the advertisement, the business of the day commenced confidence in the majority of the directors.—(Hear,
by the chairman proposing the affixing of the common hear.) At all events, either Mr. Pritchard and his
seal of the company to the register of proprietors. friends must go eut, or the other directors must
Mr. A. K. BAKER moved an amendment, that it be not surrender their trust into the hands of . their con-
affixed, amidst some confusion, and cries of " Chair, stituents.—(Cheers.)
chair, hear him, bear him, sit down, &c." Mr. LEVY hoped the meeting would stand none of
The amendment having been seconded, the majority Mr. Kinnard's humbug.—(Hear and laughter.) He
of the meeting stoutly demanded that it should be put remembered well that in 1845, when he took occasion to
at once'.
tell the Eastern Counties that Mr. Hudson was a hum-
Mr. A. K. BAKER, before it was put, was anxious to bug, Mr. Kinnard threatened to have him turned out.
ask whether it was true or not that the register con- —(Cheers and laughter, and cries of " Question.")
tained a number of shares which had been purchased with Well, he was coming to the question ; he wanted
the money of the company, and if so, whether the votes them to stand none of the Chairman's, or Mr. Kin-
in -respect of those shares would be used in determining nard's pallaver—(Cheers and laughter)—but appoint
any question to be disposed of to day ?—(Cheers.) a committee out of their own body, and not leave
The CHAIRMAN said the register contained all the the matter in the hands of the directors.—(Cheers.)
shares of the concern, and of course those belonging to Mr. CUNLIPFE, one of the opposition committee, an-
the company, but be begged distinctly to state that the nounced his intention to move an amendment, which
votes in respect of the company's shares would not be gave rise to a good deal of noise and uproar. He at-
made use of.—(Tremendous cheering.)
tributed the depreciation of the shares to the dissen-
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the seal sions which existed in the direction, and unless they
affixed to the register. made some change in that body, they could never hope
Mr. HERBERT then read the report, which was to the to see any improvement in their property.—(Cheers.)
following effect:—
He moved as an amendment a similar resolution, but
"The traffic receipts for the half-year ending the 31st varying the names.
January, have been 238,1304, and the expenses 117,1774, Mr. SIMPSON seconded the amendment, and remarked
including 21,6324 for rent of the Greenwich and the that one fact would be sufficient to prove the necessity
• Whitstable and Canterbury Railways, and 21,2931. rates for inquiry. At the last half-yearly meeting Mr.
• and Government duty, leaving a balance of 120,9531. The Pritchard stated that 8,000,000/. would be amply suffi-
• same mileage of railway was open for traffic during the last event to complete their works, but it now turned out that
half-year as for the corresponding period of the previous nearly 2,000,000/. were to be added to that sum.
year, but the receipts from passenger traffic for the last Mr. M. L. PRITCHARD in an able speech defended
. half-year were less by 15 2981., whilst there was an in-
himself against what he called the insinuating attacks
crease of 6,1231. from goods, cattle, and parcel traffic, the which had been made upon him from the chair,
diminution of receipts during the half .year being 9,1751. and declared that the statement just alluded to by
Daring the half-year the sum of 667,1921. has been paid Mr. Simpson was made upon the faith of
up by the proprietors on capital account; 370,9931. has statements of the Chairman. He was then ignorant of
been paid during that period for land, and 80,4001 on the charge which had since been made against the capi-
bonds and loan notes have been paid off, and 26,900 E tal. Had their expenditure remained at 8,000,0001. the
bonds renewed. The only Bill the company has before line would have been a property; but go beyond that
Parliament is for the purpose of authorising the partial sum, and, so far as profit was concerned, they might as
opening of the Ashford and Hastings, and Tonbridge- well sink it in the sea.—(Hear, hear.) Now, then, was
Wells and Hastings lines, and to authorise the company the time to stop the expenditure. For his part, had his
to become the owners of steam-boats. The directors advice been followed, not a spade would have been put
suggest that it may be arranged with the proprietors into the land from Rye to Hastings, and from
of the present South-Eastern and Continental Steam- Hastings upwards, and the proprietors might take his
packet Company to exchange their shares in that corn- word for it, that in making those lines they were digging
• pany, on terms to be agreed on, for shares in the railway the grave of their property.—(Cheers.) With regard to
company. The cost of the eight steam-ships belonging the hint thrown out by Mr. Kinnard, that the minority
;
_to the Steam-packet Company has been about 130,000/., ought to give way, he would take leave to ask who was
and therefore 150,0001. may be considered as the full Mr. Kinnard, who came there, with an infantine interest
amount of capital which would be required for this pur- and connexion with the concern, to advise an old servant
pose. The directors state that justice cannot be done to of the company, who had spent his time, his
the development of the continental traffic, unless that money, and his substance in its service.—(Cheers.)
service is performed more with regard to railway celerity Were the proprietors aware that on the day Mr. Kin-
and punctuality, than to the profit derivedifrom the voy- nard was elected a director he was a contractor of the
age. The general effect of the extension of railway corn- company, but by a wave of the harlequin's wand his
munication on the continent is to accumulate the con- contracts were transferred.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
tinental traffic with Great Britain upon Calais and Bou- should not then take such a man's advice to " cut his
s
'ogee. Hitherto the South-Eastern Railway has hardly stick."—(Hear, hear.) He was there under Act of
liament—no man had a right to turn him out, and he
Par-
reaped any benefit by the traffic in merchandise from
the
,continent; that traffic, however, it is just entering should not quit the board until he had set the house in
upon, and the directors will make the necessary order.—(Cheers.)
preparations at Folkestone and Dover, at the Brick-
Mr. J. WILSON wished to ask the Chairman four
layers' Arms station and the London-bridge ter- questions. First—What the piece of plate cost the com-
minus, to enable the company to carry it on satisfac-
pany which was presented to Lord Torrington on his
torily. The directors are certainly entitled to great retiring from the directory? Second—What the dinner
credit and praise for their laudable exertions to
cost which was given on the occasion of the presenta-
abolish the useless system of passports between tion? Third—Were not 1,000 No. 4 shares kept in the
books for Lord Torrington if he chose to take them, and
France and England. The report states that
the French Government were appealed to by the allowed to remain on the books till they had greatly
directors, in conjunction with those of the Northern fallen in price? And Fourth—What account were these
Railway of France and of the Boulogne and Amiens sums charged to?—(Cheers.) He complained that no
Railway, to entertain the question of abolishing the sys- auditors had ever been appointed.
tem of passports between France and England, and the The CHAIRMAN said that fault rested with the share-
application was received with so much favour that the holders.—(oh, oh.) Let them, however, appoint Audis
directors believe that nothing but the exigency of the tors now. Now, as to the questions, the plate cost
moment has prevented its success, which they still look 2,Bool.—(Shame.) It was charged to the capital.
forward to. The neeessity of being provided with a The dinner cost 3004—(0h, oh, and shame.) The 1,000
passport to make the now short journey from London to No. 4 shares were voted to the Noble Lord.—(ol3, oh.)
Paris is a hindrance to traffic and intercourse which the Mr. Alderman SALOMONS denounced the practice of
reciprocal feelings and englightened Governments of Publishing insinuations against the directors without
both countries must desire to remove. The directors stating the grounds for them; but he thought the only
are also exerting themselves to establish a branch way to prevent such practices was to appoint an impar-
custom-house at London-bridge with the same laudable tial committee of inquiry.—(Cheers.)
view of facilitating commercial intercourse between the Mr. LEWIN MOSLEY came prepared to put many ques-
two countries, and promoting the traffic on the railway, tions to the Chairman, but after that Hon. Gentleman's
which must also tend to the direct advantage of the clear explanations and candid invitation for inquiry, he
shareholders. It states that the directors anticipate thought it best to abstain from putting them, and urged
being enabled to establish bonded warehouses for wines the meeting to adopt the original resolution.
and other merchandise in the arches under the Green- Mr. THOMPSON, one of the directors in theminority,
with Railway, and that an examining-room for silks and complained that he was struck off the finance committee,
valuable goods will be permitted by the Board of Cus- because he expresed a desire to look closely into the
toms at the station, so as to allow packages to come un- accounts.—(Hear, and Shame.) He assured the meet-
opened under the Customs' lock from Dover and Folke- ing that the books of the company were in a very in-
stone to London. In addition to these exertions, the complete state. During the last two years speculations
company have performed considerable service for the in Consols to the extent of .upwards of 3,000,0001. had
Post-office, in forwarding the mails, and the increased been made, and yet the papers and books relating to
amount-to which they are and will become entitled for those transactions were still open, and he could get no
its continuance will be settled by arbitration in the usual information about them.—(Hear, and shame.) He saw
manner, and for which they have not taken any credit by the books that 15,000 E had been advanced to the
in their accounts. That it is probable, if the railway chairman's private brokers, and in reference to that
company become the owners of the steam-boats, that transaction he could obtain no information.—(Shame.)
one contract will be made with the Post-office for These were some of the reasons which induced him to
the railway and steam-boat service from London to oppose the majority of the direction and court inquiry.
Boulogne and Calais. The . opening of the Mr. BROODEN, the other dissentient director, said his
branch line to Folkestone, which took place on the Ist son would read to them a statement of the part he had
of January last, affords great additional facility in taken in the transactions, but a scene of indescribable
communicating with the continent, as travellers are confusion took place, and it was some time before Mr.
now conveyed without change of carriage to the steam- 13rogden, jun., could get a hearing. Some of the share-
boat quay at Folkstone, and the convenience has afforded holders called out that he was a mere boy, and he ought
great satisfactian. At Dover the Government works to be put down. The boy, however, met this ungenerous
- are proceeding, and the pier has been already extended remark with the indignant declaration that, boy though
230 feet into the sea, and there cannot be a doubt that he was, he would not stand by and and hear his fa-
when the present contract, which is for carrying the pier then calumniated without making an effort to
800 feet into the sea, is completed, Dover will be a deep defend him. The meeting, however, by the most dis-
water harbour, accessible at all times of the tide— cordant noises, mingled with hisses and yells, succeeded
a
a -result of great importance to the interests of the at last in putting the young man down, and after some
South-Eastern Railway Company. The traffic de- further confusion and discussion the amendment was ne-
rived in consequence of the opening of the Great gatived, and the original resolution agreed to. A poll
Northern Railway of France to C dais has hitherto was demanded, and deferred.
been very slight; but from the 4th inst. an improved The dividend mentioned in the report was then do-
service has been commenced from Calais to Brussels, dared payable on an early day.
and vice versd, and the directors have not any doubt It would be difficult to describe the scene that fol-
that the traffic from the north of France and Germany lowed, but it was something like this:—
to Calais will greatly increase; in the meantime the Mr. WIRE said he would just look at the names on the
Northern Railway of France has united with the South- committee.—(Cries of "Down, down—don't make lone
Eastern Railway Company in providing such steam-boat speeches—turn him out.") He knew Mr. Cunliffe well
accommodation as will insure the requisite communica- Mr. CIINLIFFE—No, you don't sir—you never saw
tion with Folkstone or Dover. The harbour of Calais me till to-day in your life.—(Yells.)
is now accessible in ordinary weather to steam-ships of Mr. MoRGAN—I'II tell yon something about Mr. Cun-
the draught of those of the South-Eastern and Conti- liffe then. He called upon me and said,lf I would give
nental Steam-packet Company at all times of the tide. him my proxy, he would put me in possession of some
The comparison of the through traffic between Lon- information about the South-Eastern. I said
" Give me
don and Folkestone and D,,ver for the last half-year and the information first ;" but he said, "Oh no."—(Turn
the corresponding period of the preceding year shows a him out, and yells, hisses, groans, and stamping of feet.)
decrease of 8,551 in the number of passengers; but, in Mr. COLEMAN saw nothing in the accounts charged for
consequence of an addition made to the fares, the de-
solicitors. How much had
crease in receipts amounted to 3161. only. The directors The CHAIRMAN—I don 'been paid to them?—(Cheers.)
t know.
expect that the North Kent line will be opened for traffic Mr. COLEMAN—You ought, then, give me an answer,
by the Ist of July, and the Reading, Guildford, and Rei-
sir.—(Another storm of voices.)
gate line by the Ist of August next. The capital ac-
The CHAIRMAN—I have been charged with carrying
count to the 31st of January shows that 8,282,3421. has the funds of the company in my breeches pocket, and
been received, and 8,116,9141. expended, leaving a balance now lam asked if I have not got the accounts in my
of 165,4281." head.
The CHAIRMAN, in commencing his address to the Mr. COLEMAN—Oh 1 that's nonsense. I can tell you
shareholders, said the proceedings of to-day demanded there have been 32,000/. paid to the solicitor.
the especial attention of the meeting, and it was due to The CHAIRMAN made some observations, which seemed
the proprietors, whose confidence the directors were to imply that the information had come from the deputy-
anxious to secure, that a full, a clear, and impartial chairman.
statement of the present position and future pros- Mr. PRITSHARI, indignantly denied this, but, as the
pects of the undertaking should be given.— matter had been mooted, he would tell the meeting what
(Cheers.) A short time ago the majority of the had been dome. No less than 35,0001. had been paid to
directors issued a statement upon the financial affairs the solicitor for fifteen months' work, against which pro-
of the company, and he could now assure the pro- ceeding he had protested.—(Sensation.)
prietors that the figures in that statement were strictly The CHAIRMAN appealed to Mr. Cunliffe whether it
accurate, and disclosed clearly and candidly the was worth while going to a poll, seeing that the proxies
real state of their finances.—(Cheers.) Latterly, stood thus—
it had unfortunately become a too common
practice with' For the Directors
some parties—but for what purpose he could not divine, Against them 11,278
to make insinuations against the stability of this corn- Mr. CUNLI/FE said under these circumstances he would
pany—insinuations that were unscrupulously indulged decline going to the poll.
in by those parties without lettinc, out any clue by which The other business referred to in the report, such as
the- grounds and reasons of their reckless assertionsi disposed of. - the election of directors, was then tardily and noisily
ust
could be ascertained; but if there really were any
j
.fication for these mysterious and injurious reports, let Mr. HOLLAND moved a resolution to the effect that no
those who circulated them come forward now sharebroker or contractor ought to have a seat in the
and defend their statements.—(Loud cheers.) The direction.
truth was, however, and the truth must Mr. PRITCHARD took this resolution as a blow aimed
at himself, but he could assure the meeting that it would
be told, that the reports he alluded to were utterly des-
order.
not drive him from office until he had set the house in
titute of foundation; but, in order that the proprietors
0. After a remonstrance against the resolution from the
should not have simply his bare word for this, he was
hn irma.n, Mr. Alderman Salomons, and Mr. L. M I
prepared before he sat down to move that a committee
t eA m
Petition t o n
w w
was
sh
of inquiry be appointed to investigate, without any re
es et,
serve, the books, accounts, and the entire management
wiatrhlidament against the present system
rawn.
ratingwerea then agreed to;; after which a vote of
of the company, and that this meeting be adjourned
of
voted to the Chairman and the directors,
till the 12th of April, to give that committee
thanks
an opportunity of preparing a report upon the
terminated.thenresolved themselves into a
and
The
ht
ahl e
shareholdersmeeting
e e ting, and agreed to a resolution authorising
results of their inquiry.—(Tremendous cheering.)
"In fact the directors courted inquiry, and if any improve-
specie m
meats could be suggested in carrying on the business of
the company, they would be the first to adopt them.— the directors to make the arrangements relating to the
(Hear, hear.) So much then for these insidious and steam-boats.
vague reports of mat-administration of the company's
affairs; and now, with the permission of the meet-
ing; he would say a few words upon the matter
of traffic.—(Hear, hear.) It was to be regretted,
and nobody more regretted it than the directors, that
the passengers using the railway had considerably de-
s . creased during the past year, but when they remembered
the peculiar position of the line, and how entirely its
-Prosperity depended upon the tranquillity of the Conti--
ment, it was not to be wondered at that the disturbances
. their
itrtleinetteher side of the Channel had seriously affected
abroad searselit7(lll ear-) The aspect of affairs, however,
he would tals:lePaLY undergoing a favourable change, and
, thvaetto repeat the opinion he gave on taking
offices in 1844 with prudent management their rail-
way possessed lat..e elements
lvh of prosperity. Now, with
which respect to the scandalhud gone abroad upon the
disputes which h6d arisen in board—(Hear, hear)—
it had its origin in a resolution of the board to discuss
the contracts of Mr. Brogden,
in the absence of
his father, who was in the diret‘i" (Loud cheers.)
fletsolution; and
• Mr. Brogden'
refused to sanction °t'lls.i.--s
then followed scenes which he thou
would
e, allow to drop into oblivion,—(Hear, to
4'atiow explain that the investment of
ieeest
the also' if the company arose in this way._
!red that some time ago they Were
ge sum of money with the Account-
;t of new lines. When those lines
money was returned to them, at a
some difficulty in disposing of it,
unanimous resolution of the board a
ordered to be invested in the shares of
) He concluded by moving the

.1 .

MOLD RAIL WAY COMPANY-
The half-yearly meeting of this company was held
yesterday afternoon, at the offices of the Chester and
.Holyhead Railway Company, Moorgate-street:; Mr.
Thomas presided.
The report stated that the directors had great
pleasure to announce that the !woks wefe in
such a 'forward state that the main line might be
opened for passenger traffic early in the approaching
summer, and that the branch for the mineral district might
be completed in the course of the autumn, thus rendering
the capital invested in this undertaking immediately re-
munerative. That progress had been accomplished chiefly
by the aid of the Chester and Holyhead Railway COLII -
pan y, who were equally interested with the shareholders
of this company in opening up the traffic of the district,
and without whose assistance it would have been impos-
sible ) for the directors, during the present monetary crisis,
and the general depression of railway interests, to have
fulfilled the arrangement which they had undertaken on
bells If of the shareholders. The Chester and Holy-
head l Company proposed to avail themselves of the power
gran ,ted by the 47th section of the Act for the pur-
chas e of the line, and for that purpose a prelimi-
nary • agreement had been entered into with that
coral pany, which would be submitted to the
meal zing for its approval and confirmation. There had
beer a large amount of arrears upon the calls, and under
!nee nt circumstances the directors had forborne to en-
fore_
he total ree9ei7p,9ts99flomiotsh.e2edomamnednetehmeenext
pofenthdie
them , but they would now be compelled to do so
der taking was
97,:, 1554 ls. rd., leaving a balance" of 8441.
14s. 7d. t ut .rno-

The report wns reee;‘,ed and adopted, and the meeting
I,J.sde special.
The heads of the agreement with the Chester and
Holyhead Company were then read and confirmed, and
the directors ordered to carry the agreement into effect.
Mr. Henry Kingsford was appointed auditor of the
accounts.
A vote of thanks having been passed to the Chairman
the meeting was adjourned until the 6th of June nest.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

hOUSE OF LORDS, ..klarch 9.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the
Woolsack at Five o'clock.

The Earl of ERNE presented a petition from some
place in the county of Fermanagh against the rate in aid.
Petitions with a similar prayer were presented by
the Earl of Fitzwilliam, Lord Monteagle, and the Earl
of Limerick.

The Earl of LUCAN presented some petitions with a
similar prayer; also a petition praying for the extension
of the poor-rate to mortgagees.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition against the
rate in aid from Mr. Macdonald. He (Lord Brougham)
would urge the Government to take the Irish gentle-
men at their word, and to give up the rate in aid in
order to get hold of a property-tax. Such an offer was
made by this petition, and he thought the Government
would do well to accept it.

Lord MONTEAGLE bore testimony to the high cha
racier of all these petitioners.
COMMONS INCLOSURE BILL.

The Commons Inelosure Bill was read a third time,
and passed, on the motion of Lord CAMPBELL.
PALACE COURT.

Earl FORTESCIJE moved that an humble address be
presented to her Majesty, beseeching her to lay before
the House the patent of Charles 11. constituting the
Palace Court. He had moved for certain returns from
that Court, which did not furnish the information he
required. He felt that tha existence of this Court had
become, since the institution of County Courts, not only
perfectly useless, but a source of great extortion.
Lord BROUGHAM thought it would be a matter
of regret to abolish a Small Debt Court, such as this
without absolute necessity. He had heard of a com-
plaint which had been made against this court, and in
which an attempt had been made to cast blame upon the
counsel practising in that court, but in that instance the
Learned Counsel bad not been at all to blame.
The motion was agreed to.
PETITIONS.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition against the rate
in aid from some union in Ireland. The petitioners
also complained of the system of out-door relief, and
prayed that every landlord should be made responsible
for the maintenance of his own tenants, and every
townland be made to support its own poor, and for pro-
tection to the Irish farmer. Also several other petitions
from Meath against the rate in aid; also from some place
in Lancashire, praying for some law for regulating the
sale of beer.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition
against any alteration in the navigation-laws.
The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from
St. George's, Southwark, praying for an equalization of
the poor-rates.

IN's‘ 'NW= '',TION
731 r. PALMER Treseoteil a petition from a consider-
elle, number of shipoweers at Pi) mouth against the
repeal of the navigation-laws.
Mr. URQUHART said, having seen a statement in
the Clamor Publics that the negotiations between this
and the Spanish Government had been brought to a
termination, he wished to know from the Noble Lord
(Lord Palmerston) in what situation the negotiations
were. There was also another question which had arisen
out of recent occurrences, and which he wished to put,
as to whether the Noble Lord was prepared to lay on the
table of the House any of the correspondence which had
been brought by Count Mirasol to this country relative
to the expulsion of Sir 11. L. Bulwer as Ambassador from
Madrid ?
Lord PALMERSTON, in reply to the first question,
said the Government were not in possession of any com-
munications on the subject. As to the second question,
whether he was prepared to lay on the table of the House
the communications brought by Count Mirasol, he had
to reply that he certainly was not.—(Laughter.)
TRANSPORTATION AND DISCIPLINE OF
CONVICTS.
Viscount MAHON, in rising to call the attention of
the House to the instructions issued in the years 1846,
1647, and 1848, with respect to the transportation and
discipline of convicts, asked for the indulgence
of the House while he dealt with a matter which
necessarily involved a considerable amount of detail.
He would deal with it as briefly as the magnitude of the
subject would allow; and indeed,ifiom the papers which
had been laid on the table of the House, the question
between him and the .Gentlemen opposite was very
much narrowed. The Noble Earl the Secretary for
the Colonies had again and again declared that we
ought to provide for our convicts by the use of hulks
or by the construction of penitentiaries at home. He
certainly could not consider it a matter of blame against
the Noble Earl to assert that he had, in dealing with a
most intricate and difficult subject, been ltd greatly
to modify his views. But what he complained of
was this—that Earl Grey had cast aside some
valuable recommendations of his predecessors, and had
issued instructions which seemed to be liable to the im-
putation that they had been decided upon with impru-
dence and precipitation. In the statement which he
should make he would show that Earl Grey had since
his accession to office changed his views on
this subject no less than five times.--(Loud
laughter.) But he would at once proceed to
what was of much greater importance, namely, to some
practical recommendations and suggestions as to what
should be done for the future, and should endeavour to
elicit from her Majesty's Government some express
declarations of what their intentions really 'sere as to
the system to be hereafter pursued. The main question
was, whether after the first time acriminal had been pu-
nished he was to return to the scene of his former haunts.
If they looked at the difficulties with which this ques •
lion was beset, they should flea, he thought, that they
proceeded in some measure frem two orders issued by
the Noble Lord now the Prime Minister, but
at the time in question Secretary of State for the
Colonial Department. He issued two orders for the
abolition of the assignment system in Australian co-
lonies, and for the immediate abolition of transportation
so far as New South Wales was concerned. These
orders took effect in 1840, and had been attended
with ill consequences. He did not mean to impute
blame to the Noble Lord for the course he
had adopted, since the Committee on transportation had
just made its report, and the evidence, which had since
been contradicted, justified in many respects the
course he had adopted. The immediate effect of
the abolition of transportation to New South
Wales was the accumulation of convicts in the hulks
at home, from which the greatest possible evils resulted,
and of which the loudest complaints were made. Of
such a nature were these complaints, that he felt
it his duty in 1841 to bring the subject before
the House. He proposed a resolution condemning
the system of crowding prisoners in the hulks.
and asking the House to express its opinion that the
number ought not to be augmented. Though that mo-
tion was opposed by the Government of the day,
yet it was affirmed by a large majority of the Mem-
bers. A few months after the Government was dis-
solved and a new one formed, in which Lord
Stanley was the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and
his Hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham),
Secretary of State for the Home Department. In the
ensuing year, 1842, he asked the Hon. Gentleman how
far he would consent to be bound by the resolution
of the House in 1841. Me had, of course, but two
courses to pursue, either to act in:conformity with it,
or in opposition to it ; and he replied that he con-
curred in what the House had affirmed, and that
he should be prepared to abide by it. Under
their administration the number of convicts in the
hulks was nab augmented ; consequently :the
rule of the House was observed; but an expected evil
was the result—the number of convicts in Van Die-
men's Land was increased. As many as from 4,000 to
5,000 were divided between New South Wales
and Van Diemen's Land every year. By the
order of the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
the entire number was confined tof Van Diemen's Land
alone. When the entire system was arranged, it was
right that it should be well understood whether the
blame attached to the Government at home or to the per-
sons employed to superintend its carrying out in the
colonies. Major Childs was appointed Governor of
Norfolk Island by Lord Stanley who, from the
character that that officer enjoyed, was doubt-
less justified in his selection. Notwithstanding
the period and purpose of his appointment, the
result had been most unfortunate. There could not be
a stronger case made against any governor than that
against Major Childs. When there was an outbreak, at-
tended with loss of life in the island. Mr. Stewart was
sent to inquire into the cause. He found 60, or 80 con-
victs sleeping in dormitories, where they were confined 16
hours out of 24, in order that the officials might have
their evenings to themselves. Subsequently there
was another mission by Mr. Hampton, who reported
that no proper management was observed; that the pri-
soners were allowed to take their food, and
that the more timid did not get any,
unless they obtained the favour of the other
and more powerful prisoners. Then with respect to
Van Diemen's Land. He did not wish to speak
harshly of any one—far less of any one deceased—
yet the House was perfectly aware that most pain-
ful discussions had taken place in that House
with respect to his policy. Those who had read
the recent dispatches of Governor Dennison must have
barn struck by his ability and aptitude for business, and
the great contrast they presented to those of his imme-
diate predecessor; yet better things might have been ex-
pected from him, looking at the experience he had had
But besides any fault in the administration the system
itself, he thought, it would appear was fraught with the
most serious objection, for by the rule laid down by the
present Prime Minister all the convicts now went to
New South Wales or to Norfolk Island. Now this
stream of convicts, which was divided between the
two colonies, between New South Wales and Van
Diemen's Land, would do no more, as it were, than cul-
tivate the soil, would, when confined to one colony,
prove a pestilence to it. Under these circumstances
there was unavoidably formed a far larger stream of
convicts at Van Diemen's Land than the colony would
bear. The population of the three colonies
were somewhere about thirty thousand, and were
overmatched in rapid succession by the accumulation of
convicts directed to that single point. The complaints
of the Van Diemen's Land colonists were sent home
early in the spring of 1846. At that time Lord Stanley
had been succeeded in the office of Secretary for the
Colonies by his (Lord Mahon's) Right Hon. Friend
who now represented the University of Oxford.
When the complaints of the colonists were so well
founded, it was really no more than any Minister
in the same situation ought to have done than to listen
to them. His Right Hon. Friend the Member for Ripon
came to the conclusion that it was absolutely necessary
to suspend transportation to Van Diemen's Land for two
years; but his Right Hon. Friend the Membea for the
University of Oxford took another step also.
Lord Stanley had some time before sanctioned the
establishment of a colony in North Australia, and had
taken all the necessary steps for the formation of that
colony. Well now, he (Lord Mahon) brought the his-
tory of this question to the time when Earl Grey suc-
ceeded to the office, when in the summer of
1846, there being a change of Government,
Earl Grey became Colonial Secretary. Now,
then, ha (Lord Mahon) said that he should be
prepared to show that Earl Grey announced no less
than five changes in his views on this subject in the
period between November, 1846, and June, 1848.
What was the first step taken by Earl Grey ? He
(Lord Mahon) wished to state this transaction as clearly
as possible. Earl Grey, on the 15th November,
wrote to Sir Charles Fitzroy, and counter-
manded the instructions given by Lord Stanley,
and sanctioned by Mr. Secretary Batson, on the forma-
tion of the colony. Now he (Lord Mahon) should have
occasion to return to that point. What was the next
step? Earl Grey, on the sth of February, 1847, wrote to
Sir W. Dennison, " I have to inform you that it is not
the intention of her Majesty's Government that transpor-
tation to Van Litemen's Land shall be reduced at the

patehes, to show ti,at the [natter was se, hr represented.)
Ile then resumed. and said that , urn g the dn bate e heal
eeste d roe! red to toe di Batch of the Nio: E
and had asked the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite what
sum he intended to move for in the estimates on that
occasion. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the sum
of 30,0001. was to be applied to the benefit of
Van Diemen's Land. This was the third stage. Now
came the fourth stage. In that stage only part of this
grant was to be appropriated to Vat colony. On the
occasion when the Nohe Loi d the Member for B•eli
(Lord Duncan) brought the subiect boort- the House,
and did as he always did on similar occasions, made an
able exposition of the matter, it came out that the Noble
Earl had reverted from the fourth to the third stage of
his mistake.—(Hear, hear.) Only a part, not the whole,
of the money was to be applied to the relief of Van
Diemen's Land.—(Hear, hear.) Well, this year
they had another stage of the mistakes. They.
had arrived at an epoch of great changes.
Earl Grey's opinion upon the question of Norfolk
Island seemed to him to have gone the round of the
press, but it had answered no earthly purpose.
The advantage of the colonies was this—that they might
there employ transports without endangering free
colonies, and without exposing them to contamination.
Many practical evils arose from the accumulation of
prisoners in the gaols of England and Ireland. An
active magistrate in Yorkshire had told him that the
accumulation in the prisons was so great in
that county that magistrates were actually precluded
from committing prisoners even where they deemed it ne-
cessary. Now, that was a system which the Government
ought not to sanction, and which ought not to exist fee
any considerable time. The moment gaols were
filled beyond what they could conveniently hold
all reformatory processes which were adopted
were obliged to be suspended. The Govern-
ment were bound to provide some means to pre-
vent the collection of a great number of prisoners in one
gaol, which had the effect of neutralising the benefit of
that reformatory discipline which this country was so
proud in having instituted. He next came to the prac-
tical suggestions which he thought it advisable
to make. He considered that the suggestions
put forward by Captain Maconechie, although he enter-
tained every respect fur that gentleman, ought
not to be received with implicit confidence.
He did not think that a single Member of
that House would agree with the unproportionate
importance which Captain Meeonochil had attributed to
the use of music in gaols. The first suggestion which
he (Lord Mahon) had to offer was with
reference to the colony of North Australia.
He challenged the Hon. Udder-Secretary for the Colo-
nies to say that New North Australia did not present
a desirable spot for carrying out the object which Lord
Stanley and Mr. Gladstone had in view. The House
knew how often convicts were the pioneers of
free emigration, and how desirable it was that
they should be the means of paving the way for free
emigration. He thought the House had a right to
complain of the abandonment of the new
North Australian colony which Mr. Secretary Gladstone
had formed. When Lord John Ru-sell put an end to
the system of transportation to New South Wales, the
free inhabitants of the colony, in 1840, sent a
petition to the House, which was presented in 1840 by
Mr. Chas. Buller, who certainly was no mean authority
on the question. Of course, they felt the want of the
abstraction of a large amount of labour. Acccording to
the report of Mr. Merewrather, dated May. 1842,
619,523 went out; at an expense of 30.0001.; and
in a later year no less a number than 230,000. No
wonder, then, that the authorities at home began to
think that there was a glut of labour; yet the colonists,
who were the best authorities upon the matter,
entertained an opinion, and became afraid that an in-
sufficiency of labour would be the result of
the determination of the Home Government.
He would not say that the material improvement
of the colonies, or the supply of labour, was by
any means the first, or anything like the first, consi
deration; but still, if consistent with those things, it was
possible to provide a salutary terror, which trans-
portation had always, up to very recently,
bad in this country, and if the reformation of convicts
could be steadily carried out in those colonies, then, and
as a subordinate object, he thought the documents he had
read were sufficient to show that the expectations of free
emigration supplying the place of convict labour to the
benefit of the colony had proved fallacious, and that the
greatest distress had been suffered in that colony from
the want of labour. He complained in the outset of
his speech of the ill effects which had resulted from
Earl Grey's policy. What had been the consequence? In
the list of papers he had laid on the the table the colo-
nists complained of a breach of faith. He would go further
and show the ill consequences of that important pledge
in the very words of their own officer, in the dispatch of
Sir William Dennison. Sir William Dennison acknow-
ledged the rtceipt of Earl Grey's dispatch of the sih
February, 1847, and then said, "I am informed
it is not the intention of her Majesty's Government
that transportation to Van Diemen's land shall be
resumed after the expiration of two years." Now what
possible defence could be offered for that conduct?
If he were to regard transportation as a system to be
continued, he must say that of all systems which
had been adopted in Van Diemen's Land, that of Mr.
Wakefield was the one most capable of improvement.
Such was the opinion of the Bishop of Tasmania.
(The Noble Lord then read an extract from
the work of Mr. E. Gibbon Wakefield to
show that the farmers of Van Diemen's Land had been
greatly benefited by the presence of the convicts, and to
state that as many as seventy labourers had
been employed by one farmer on his property at
one time.) Now, his object in bringing this subject
before the House was purely practical. and would not
be bound by what either he himself or others had
said on previous occasions. His suggestion then
was that conditional orders should be sent out
to the Governors of Van Diemen's Land and of New
South Wales to try the experiment of the transportation
system on a limited scale; and, then, if that were suc-
cessful, it might easily be extended. He should then
conclude with moving, as he had stated in the beginning
it was his intention to do, for the returns of which he
had given notice. It he refrained from moving any sub-
stantive resolution on the subject, it was because before
doing so he wished to hear what the Hon. Gentleman
might have to say upon the subject. The Noble Lord
concluded by moving for copies of the correspondence
on this subject between the Colonial-offiee and the
Governors of the colonies relative to this subject.
Mr. H. HERBERT said that, in rising to second this
motion, it would be disgraceful if an Irish Member did
not rise at the very first opportunity to speak upon the
subject. He called attention to the crowded condition
of many of the gaols in Ireland at the present time, and
referred to some documents to show that within the last
three years the number of convictions and committals
had doubled. The mortality, too, had increased to a
very great extent for the three years commencing 1845.
In that year the number of deaths in the gaols of Ire
land was 81; in 1846 it had amounted to 132; while, in
1847, it had reached the enormous number of 1,315. It
could not be said that any neglect attached to those
whose duty it was to provide good accommodation in
Ireland. In the report of the inspectors of prisons in
that country, they had stated- that up to 1846 the con-
dition of-all the gaols was such as to show that they
had been carefully attended to and to lead to a
hope that their functions would be comparatively light.
He held in his hand a report which he had received on
the preceding day, of the state of the gaol of Tralee, the
principal town in the county which he represented. That
gaol had been originally constructed to hold 86 persons;
but there were at present in it the astounding number of
528; being six times the number which it was meant
that it should contain. He found that among those per-
sons there were 16 male and 16 female lunatics, and 37
prisoners under sentence of transportation. 15 of whom
had been sentenced upwards of six months. He had!to:add
to that statement that it would be idle to expect that the
people of the county in which that gaol was situated
could subscribe the necessary funds, in their present im-
poverished condition, for meeting the exigency of the
case, and he earnestly hoped, therefore, that the atten-
tion of her Majesty's Government would be directed to
the subject, with a view to alleviate as far vs possible so
frightful an evil.
• Sir G. GREY (who was frequently inaudible in the
gallery) thanked the Noble Lord for having brought
forward the motion, because, though in this matter the
Executive must always be intrusted with large discre-
tionary powers, and act according to the varying exi-
gencies which might arise, still it was desirable that
Parliament should have a full knowledge of the mode in
which the Government conducted this department. Be-
fore however proceeding to that part of his statement,
he would just say a few words as to the charge of in-
consistency which had been made by the Noble Lord
against the policy of his Noble Friend at the head of
the Colonial-office. He quite concurred in the opinion
that the great object they should have in view was to
deter from the commission of crime and to improve
the offender ; but in carrying this object our, the Go-
vernment ought not to aim at more than they were
I able to accomplish. In doing this, consistency would
be a fault instead of a virtue. In defending his
Noble Friend, he begged to say that he participated
in the blame that might he thrown upon his Noble
Friend, and he did not wish to shrink from it, because
all the Noble Lord had done had been with his fullest
concurrence and consent. But he did not mean to say
that there were no defects in the system now in opera-
tion. Two years ago, when he fully entered into: the
whole subject,- and stated in detail the course which the
Government meant to take, and their reasons for,taking
it, he had stated that the system was a tentative one, and
that it would be improved, not only in accordance with
the increased experience of the Government, but also
with such suggestions as persons of experience might
offer. But he must call the attention of the Noble
Lord to one part of his statement, in which he
thought the Noble Lord had not done justice to
the present Government. It would be remetiabered
that when they came into office in. 1846, the evils
arising from the system of transportation had risen to
such a height, that the Honourable Member for Oxford
University (Mr. Gladstone) then at the head of the
Colonial-office, had, in a dispatch fully exposed the na-
ture and extent of these evils, the dreadful crime and im-
morality of which prevailed especially among the proba-
tion classes, and the late Government was exerting itself
to put a stop to them. When the present Goveroment
came into office, they felt themselves imperatively called
upon to interfere at once, and to devise immediate means
of dealing with those criminals against whose transport-
tation the colonies were exerting themselves in the
strongest possible manner. The state of the colonies at
that time was fully stated in the dispatch of the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone). Under those circum-
stances his attention had been directed to the subject of
transportation, and he found that the system then pur-
sued was productive of serious evils, and could riot fail
to create the largest amount of disadvantage both in
a social and moral point of view. In his opinion
the system of transportation now carried on, subject of
course to certain modifications, was not calculated to

expiration of two years, for which it has been-
al-
ready decided it shall be continued." He (Lord Mahon)
asked, vas Lord Grey justified in doing that? He might
be justified in deciding what he pleased at the
time, but he was not justified in saying,
after two years, that transportation should in no
possible case be resumed in Van Diemen's Land.
Well, then they were still in the first phase of Earl
Grey's Administration. The views of Earl Grey at
that time were set forth by himself with much clear-
ness, in his speech in the House of Lords,
on the sth of March, 1847. He said,,," We wish to
carry into effect a change in the policy of the country
with respect to punishment of a very important kind;
but that change is of no less an extent than the vir-
tual
,abolition of the system of transportation which
has so many years prevailed under different regulations."
But then they had Earl Grey's words for the virtual
abolition of transportation. Convicts were to be sent
out to those colonies on no account whatever. Now this

was the first stage of Earl Grey's mistake. When, on
the 3d of June they had a debate in that House, and in
the course of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the U❑der-Secretary for the Colonies, ho stated
chat Earl Grey had altered his opinion on that
particular point--that was stage the second of the
Noble Earl's mistakes. It was then stated that the con-

victs were not to be sent out pi the way of transportation
but as compulsory exiles. That was the next stage.—
(Hear, hear.) This was confirmed by the dispatch of
the Noble Earl to Earl Grey on the 12th February, to
Sir W. Dennison. Hereithen was stage number two.
Lord Grey's opinion lasted on this point till the 27th of
April, 1848. In the papers laid before toe House previous
to the debate the Noble Earl appeared to intend to propose
the grant of a certain sum, as a remuneration for the

convicts which had been taken from Van Diemen's Land.
(The Noble Lord then read some extracts from the dis-

ffect the object in view, namely, th;:
punishments or
afendere and the refeemetiee of to irnit,als. He wield
eile up tit questier, at the point where he left off 1;1
1847, and state generally the plan at present adopted.
The main feature of the scheme then proposed, and since
carried out with some modifications was, that the prin-
cipal penal portion of the period should be spent, not in
a distant colony, where hardened criminals were con-
gregated, but in some of the convict establishments of
this country, and at. Bermuda, or Gibraltar. The sea'
ence transportation, he now spoke of the cases of
ordinary convicts, was divided into three parts. The
Government had determined that the first portion should
be passed in separate imprisonment, as distinguished
from the silent system, the maximum period of
imprisonment being 18 months, but averaging generally,
except in extreme casts, from 6to 12 months. A most
incorrect and erroneous impression had got abroad, that
the Government had come to the conclusion that the
system of separate imprisonment failed, and was ex'
ph ded. Nothing could be mere erroneous. Each sue'
ceeding year's experience, and the information derived
from gentlemen in the service of the Government, and
from magistrates, convinced him that the system, sub
ject to ter tarn regulations in its administration, was the
most valuable that could be employed fur the punish'
ment as well as the ultimate re formation of the criminal.
In support of this opinion, he referred to several
extracts from the fifth report of the Pentonville
Commissioners, who declared as the result of their
experience, that the separate imprisonment system at
present in operation was the only ground on which
reformatory discipline could be based with any chance
of success. In a pamphlet on the subject of trans"
portation, which had been lately placed in his hands,
written by a person practically conversant with the de-
tails of the system, somewhat similar opinions were ex.
pressed. The great value of the system, it was urged.
should depend on the nature of the religious instruction
afforded the convicts, and on the zeal of the officers em'
ployed. In several letters and speeches published on the
subject of separate imprisonment, the cells were de-
scribed as most attractive, com fortable places, by ne
means calculated to inspire the inmate with a horror of
crime. His own observations, on repeated visits to these
convict cells showed him the utter fallacy of such state-
merits, and he might remark, moreover, that the
frequent applications he had received from W'
sons undergoing the punishment for a remission
of this part of the sentence, showed how severelf,
it was felt. After a careful and valuable examination of
witnesses, the Committee of the House of Lords, in their
report, said that the separate system of punisbnient
seemed exactly to supply what was required, bat that it
should be administered with great care. The results of
the system were exceedingly satisfactory, a decided nu);
ral improvement having in many instances exhibited
itself in the criminals. Independently of eight hundred
separate cells in Millbank, there were now twelve
hundred others, including those of Pentonville and
Wakefield, which the Government had at their dis;
posal for the purpose of carrying out the system, and
as the period of separate imprisonment would not,
cept in very extraordinary cases, exceed twelve months,
he believed the available number would be found suffi-
cient for the purpose. Another description of penal la:
hour was that employed on public a orks. On that subjeo
he did not understand the Noble Lord as expressing all
decided opinion as to whether this should be carried on
here or in the colonies. He seemed to think there were
advantages on both sides, but on which side the balance
of advantage lay he expressed ne decided opinion. For
his own part, be thought it of immense advantage thtt,
this secondary stage of punishment should be passed,
not at such a distance from this country as Van Die-
men's Land or Port Philip, but at home, ,or at seine
such place as Gibraltar or Bermuda, which were DOvi
brought within a reasonable distance, where the regn'
latious laid down by the Government would be strictly
enforced by men of a stamp and character different from
those in the Australian colonies. The penal labour was
performed at Bermuda and Gibraltar on board hulks'
which he merely wished to speak of as temporarylexPse.;
dients that would be rapidly improved by tis%
erection of other establishments free from tP
objection which attached to the former. At Peri
land, too, the arrangements that had been perfected
were free from the great majority of objection
which applied to the hulks. For instance, it was Ir.
ranged that each man should bare a separate sleepiel
apartment. Means were taken to stimulate industry iio
good conduct; and he thought, taking everything ini.to
consideration, there were good grounds to hope that t"'
Portland establishment would be productive of ine,rt)
benefit than they had reason to expect from similar
establishments.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronel
having stated some other features of the Government
scheme, as connected with the second stage of Irani%
ment, proceeded to answer an objection taken by
Noble Lord (Mahon) to the market selected for to:
convicts' labour, and read passages from the dispaten,
of the Governor of Bermuda, in which he estimate
the labour of a strong convict at 20/. per annut°'
while his cost of maintenance did not exceed 2°/.
per annum, so that at Bermuda there was
balance of 101. on each strong working convict 11
favour of the nation, the convicts being there employed
1
on national works. The third stage of the punishment
consisted in removal to the colonies. The Noble Lord
laid great stress on the importance of the sentence being
carried out by actual removal of the convicts, but the
system formerly adopted, was merely to send them to
the hulks. What the Government proposed was, that
an actual removal should take place, and that in the
colonies the convicts, after a certain period, should'
according to circumstances and good behaviour, receire
either conditional pardon or tickets of leave. The essetl
tial difference between a ticket of leave and a conditional
pardon was, that the latter made the convicts free, but
prohibited their return to the country from which they
were transported. The ticket of leave, on the contrail:,
prohibited their leaving the colony—they rf.firs,
forced to remain within the limits of the u,„,
trict, and be prepared to show themselves to the
magistrates at certain intervals.—(Hear.) They should
also pay a sum towards the cost of their maintenance
before they received a conditional pardon. The °Wei;
t
of this branch of the system, though it fell short of t_.
hopes and intention of the Government, was to diseunuo
rage large masses of convicts from settling down in °, d
selected district. Important changes bad been effeckl'ed
at Norfolk Island. The number of convicts there iits3,
been reduced from 1,200 to 500, and it was retained, ",
the consent of Lard Grey, as a place where convies'i,
might be sent to from Van Diemen's Land who were., to
ready under sentence of transportation. In regal*" re
the Irish gaols,--he confessed that the case was a re!
difficult one, and that the Noble Lord had not ofes',
stated it.—(Hear, hear.) The crowded state of th°e
0/
gaols did not, however, arise from any suspensioniri
transportation, but in consequence of the additio
number of offenders in that country who were sentenced
to be transported.—(Hear, hear.) The attention
sv
Government had been repeatedly called to the ca_,
and they were doing all that euuld in present ciren%
stances be done to relieve the pressure in the gaols
Ireland. It was not, however, in the power of the .
verntnent to relieve that pressure to the extent 141; I
might be desirable, for he found that, while for sere, to
years previous to 1847, the average number senteneeu„,
transportation in Ireland was not above five or six he'd
dyed, for the years 1847 and 1848 the numbers sentenc,eat
to transportation had exceeded 2,000 in each year. lero
great addition coming upon them in the course of to
years had been the means of so much crowding '
gaols, and rendering it difficult for Government to find,..
the means of a remedy. In order to in some degree
relieve the pressure thus created, a considerable nertet
ber of those sentenced to transportation had been 0,13
to Spike Island, where the means of employ
ment and proper confinement had been pro'
vided for them; but, as he said before when it w"considered that the number of those sentenced
,1
transportation during each of the past two years. 4
exceeded by some three or four hundred the averse's
of five or six years previous, it must be evident thlid
the present pressure arose not from any suspension is
transportation' but from an addition in the numbs
sentenced sentenced to be transported. There was also anoteit
cause which might be assigned for this pressure, aed
was that a large number of those now sentence
transportation in Ireland being, from their youth. 1103
to be sent out to the colonies, not being able to Per',%et
the work assigned them there, were obliged to bed it t;),
in this country, at least for a time. This was proreted
a dispatch from the Governor of Bermuda, who 10 11
in regard to a number of convicts sent to that Cole 0
from Ireland, that they were of no:use, in consequenceo
their youth, and requested that no more of that ciee..
should be sent, as should they be so, they would bero
dered still more hardened and contaminated with cr,icke
from being sent to work and live among those °l of
and more vicious than themselves. The Hon. MI ot
for Kerry had said that the gaol of Kerry would
Lite
contain more than 81 prisoners, and he did not disPo
the statement; and there was no doubt that there e/.01
great deficiency of prison accommodation in Ireland, 'rd.
in order to ascertain what could be done, the 110.
Lieutenant of Ireland had called for a return of the "UOO3.
ber of prisons in that country and their means of sec°t be
modation, with a view of ascertaining what could hestee
done to remedy the evil complained of, but frorniot
number of convicts sent out of the country for thediog
two years, he could hold out but small hopes of fin bet
colonies capable of receiving any great additional o°l3,
for some time. In regard to the exceptional cased et,
transportation was not carried out, some of those 9tbet
tenced to be transported were so advanced in life, ea
if sent out to the colonies they would only bec°."-d
in
burden on the colonies to which they were sent; sea to
some cases the country sending them, had been oblig
fore,
pay for their maintenance. The instructions, therei, re'
given to inspecting surgeons were, that they object eons
ceive on board any of the vessels for conveying,,,,-red
victs to their destination, all such as they conou;iie,
unable to bear the fatigues of the voyage to Au of
or who, when they got there, would not be capable
engaging in the work assigned them to do. Tanseish •
jected to must therefore undergo their term of Pun the
ment in this country. With regard to Irish convicts' re
o
misfortune was that they were not physically fit,
re'
from their youth than from their age, to do the we'.k d to
quired of them in the penal settlements. With regfoir
the recommendations which the Noble Lord badli
milted on this subject, he confessed that he felt Ith'
fos
disappointed, as he should have been most happy t°
lea'
taken up any suggestion of a practical and beneficill'„ed
ture. The Noble Lord's recommendations, he concclia
to be no improvement on the presents ystem. As to Post
the governors of the colonies to which convicts Were
a discretionary power to carry on a system of co 7apt
meat, he considered such a system would he prese,!io
with the greatest evil. It would give rise to su
and ill feeling; and besides, what, at best, was the sr' ,1,0
of consignment but a system of slavery? The evil!, et,
subject to rendered it nothing else, and he woula, tbe
therefore, consent to its adoptien. He considereur„ot
punishment of transportation a valuable and imp
tLhaoy
one; but, in considering any modification of it, ;ell
must have in view the interests of the colonies, as it
as those of this country. And however import
_l:be
might be to bring such subjects before the lioulle

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ex shares of
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