The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-30 00:00:00

1 respect to the amount of the deduction, it was not neceaaary for him to
miter into that subject; at present. Coming, then, to the Bill which
was immediately before the House—the Municipal Corporations Bill—
the Right lion. Gentlemen had first laid it down as to the franchise that
it should be founded on, or rather tested by, the Poor-rate. He did not
think that as a principle and objection could be made to such a proposal.
If they took a certain proposed value as the proposed qualification of
municipal burgesses, then they were also to take care that it was an ascer.
Grand real value, and not ail assumed value fur the occasion. He
hhoped certainly that a Poor-law for Ireland would be one of the mea-
hstlfe6 ',assist in the present session; if it were not, then lie was
;-pretty sure that it must be one of those measures which Parliament
I would very soon give its assent to.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not believe
1 that the amount of destitution which existed in Ireland could he
permitted to continue, without some legislative measure assign.
ing property for its relief—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—and he said for
the relief of the destitute, because if there were to b merely hospitals
for the sick, the blind, and the lame, it wonlil not be a Poor-law, but a
Bill fir (he establishing of hospitals in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Whether
it might be the ease that a Poor-law would be passed this Session lie
did nut know; but this he felt, that a law providing fur destitution in
Ireland was one which Parliament, locking to the ieterest and internal
tranquillity of Ireland, must soon pass. With respect to the amount of
tire value of the franchise which the Right Hon. Gentleman had pro.
posed to establish in corporations, he wished not to make any definite
declaration at that moment. He confessed he was not prepared than to
express. an opinion upon it. They were now sp. eking of a question in
which there was no difference as to principle; for they acre hot then
discussing whether corporations should exist or not exist at all, but,
supposing corporations to exist, what could he the best c instituency to
represent the interests of the towns as to their local concerns. The
1 test was only the subject for their discussion, as to whether a
higher or a lever amount of talue should be taken, and re-
, gardsd as the best suited to represent the opinions, the fee:ings,
and interests of the towns in which corporations wete esta-
blished. He did not then propose to enter into the question
as to tie exact number of towns to which the corporation fianchise
ought to be ext. tided. He did not expect that in the Committee this
part could be arranged without very considerable difference of opinion.
—(Hear, heats) Then with regard to the principle, whether there
should be a certain ntimber of towns in which municipal corporations
should be eh:breed by the Bill, and other towns in whirls the power of
acting for corporations should be extended by petition, was a principle
he was not prepared to discuss. He agreed in thinking that a certain
number of towns so situated would be, perhaps, less than were to be
found in the schedules of the Bill. With regard to the rest it wood be
left to further consideration. He would say with respect to the fran-
chise, that after the quotation which the RightsHoneuroble Gentleman
hail read, in regard to the Municipal Coreoratiens of Scotland, an
as to the peeper amount of the value of the franchise, it was
be observed th .t in that country there was no regular Poor-rat
as in England; therenire the quotation of the Right Eonourab,
Gentleman was nut as applicable as he seemed to suppose.
to the boundaries of these towns, not only had a report b
made by the Seecial Commissioners, but a Bill ha 1 been psepar ;
laying down the exact boundaries of the town Ly t
authority cf Parliament. He did not feel it near ary to enter iota
the discussion of the question as to constables ant sheriffs. Ile was
very glad to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had no oh.
jet:tit-in to another point ; it was that the Mayors , f towns slirtt'd be
made Justices of the Peace. The Commission of Justice of the ]'race
wa.; usually attached to that of Mayor, and dipriving Mayors .11 Ireland
of that Commission would be a very inviduous distinction. There was,
he must remark, in several of the proposals of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman considerable similarity between them and the second proposal
made by the existing Government when their first Bill on this subject
had been rejected by the House of Lords in 1336. It would be remem-
bered that when their Bill was sent back to them by the House cf
Lords in 1836, instead of insisting on all their original propasitiona,
they submii ted that to a certain number of towns a Corpmation franchise
should be extended, and that to other towns the pros isions of the 9th
Gem IV. should he eatended, and also with regard to ethyl' towns the
Corporation constitutions should cease to exist.—(Hear.) That
was the preposal which was then made to the House of
Janata. He mentioned it now only for the sake of shoving with
regard to the prioeiples contained in the Right honourable gentle-
man's proposal, that, if they failed in their attempt at adjustment, it
could not be Iron a want of similarity in some of their propositions.
Elie Right Hon. gentleman had offered suggestions with regent to the
question of tolls. He should not then enter into the question, which
the Right Hon. Gentlemen bed stated so ably, and on which he had
given them so many details. He had no objection to the proposition of
the Rig,ht Hon. Gentleman, except this, that he thought it woe:it be ex-
coedingly difficult to carry it into effect, at the s :me time he thought i
that the principle which
.he had laid down was a sound and just one. •
With respect, then, to the whole of his proposals, he certain:), was quite
ready to enter into a discussion of them. lie should enter into it with
a wish net only, as the Light Hon Gentleman proposed, to discuss each
particular clause, but with a great desire, where it could be done,
even to ykld his own opinions with respect to particular clauses
rather than incur the ask of frequent divisions, where, without
any good being effected, difficulties and impediments might be
thrown in the way.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As he stated at the
commencement, if they were enabled in the prese,it session
to carry out a Bill by which Corporations might be founded
on aopuler principles, by which they might give to Ireland
Corporations, the element of whose life was derived from popular
elections, arid if they could pass a Tithe Bill the effect of which would
be to prevent frequent collisions, and thus, in the opinion of the most
steadfast friehda of the Church, give the greatest security to that •
Church, a:id if they could likewise have a provision affording some
relief, at least to the misery and destittition that existed in Ireland, then
he did think that great good would be done, though he must confess, and
he did ecrfess, that he had pressed upon Lord Grey frequently the any
settlement of the Irish Church must be totally unsatisfactory unless a
portion et' the revenues of that Church were devoted to genera: educa-
tion ; and when lie was assured by Lord Grey that, though not dith
Bring from him in principle, it was not his opinion that it could be car.
sae,' into effect, seeing what were the opinions that prevailed in this
country, he Lor:l J. Russell) was obliged to confess, in stating this opi.
nion of Lord Gray, and his beirg perfectly right as to the result, that
though he might incur the reproach of many who might say, and must
say unjustly, that he had receded from a principle which he believed to
be favourable to the general good of the country, yet still, if this great
measure could be passed, whatever reproach he might undergo, it would
lea great satisfaction to him to think that he Lad, in establishing fur
Ireland ameasure not only el great practical benefit, but also one ex-
tending privileges to that country, thus proved that the Legislature of
the Poled Klngdom was disposed to consider the Irish tin :stions, with
a view to such aajustment of them as would conduce to the benefit of
the Irish pchple.—(Cheers.) .
Mr. O'CONNELL said he never felt greater pleasure than that which
waii pfoduced both by the tone and temper of the Right Honourable
Gentleman.—;:fear, hear. If words were things, and conciliatory
language and gentle speeches acts, it would be impossible for thorn to
desire more than what they had heard that night. If it were a mere
Idelusion that great advantage: were intended for his country, it was one
so pleasio,-; ;and so unusual in its nature that he should wig!: indulging in
it, even if it Weft hot for a few moments ; but he was hound to say that
some things had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman which he
&Tidy regretted to hear. Indeed the general scheme of delusion he
witnessed reminded him of the discussions iri which the parties were
the Government upon the one hand, and the planters on the other, and
in which the imfintunate negroes were left completely out of the ques-
tion. Thus it appeared to him that the feelings of the people of Ireland,
their wishes, and their demands fir right being done to them, were
overlooked, i,, if consulted, were rather consulted not with a view of
a :tine upon them. lie did not wish to impute motives, and it would be
highly improper to do so when so many kind professions were made;
but still it seemed to him that what he had heard was rather intended
to reconcile parties in this country than for the pacification of
Ireland. What, he asited, had the hoor-laws to do with the question
oftithes, or with corporations? TI e poor law was sufficiently unpo.
putar without being made the means of enhancing the franchise and of
diminishing the number of electors. The Right Honourable Baronet
had told them of li:s intention efusing the poor-rate as an instrument
for ascertalnieg the franchise ; and he had given them this test, that
some might prefer the hon-pasment or the rate to the enjoyment of the
franchise. These words which lied fallen from the Right lion.
Baronet alarmed him. But this objection to the Poor-law Bill he had
felt for a eeetsidorable time; but it wai rot until after the third reading
that be had given expression to it when he had entermi his protest
against the Bill, and told the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland that
he had, in passing it, given an instrument to the unpppular party in Ire-
land, which, if used skilfully by them, might be employed greatly to di.
minish the number of electors in Ireland. What was to be tie test of
the corporation franchise? The poor law. Were they to wait for a
poor-law to enjoy freedom ? They could have no poor-law until
they had workhouses. They could not bold workhouses by
magic; they had not an Aiaddin's lamp, and could not create
them in a night. They must go through ti.e very tedious
process of using lime and brick and mortar. Until they
had workhouses, they could not have a Poor.rate. Did they woos an
Ingredient to enhance the amount of the franchise ?—(Hear, from Lord
Stanley:, lie knew, that the Noble Lord was prepered to enhance the
ft anchise. lie knew that the Noble Lord had restricted the fran

rise in Ireland. Tithes had been connected by the Right Hon. Paronet
with the municipal franchise; but no two subjaets could be more diGrent
from each miter than the question of Tithes and of Municipal Reform.
In discussing Tithes they might say that they would make a satisfactory
arrangement hg calling Tithes a rent-charge, and pacing the burden on
the landlords, which the landlords would afterwaids place upon the
tenants; but the people of Ireland could not thus be deluded The
essential ditßeulty in this question had been overlooked, or it had been
placed by the Right Hon. Gentlemen is the haekground. The great dif.
ticutty of the Irish Tithe qtlestion was, that there were in Ireland
7,200,000 persons who d'd not belong to the Established Church. The
Established Church was the Church but of 800,000 persons. There were
0,500,000 Catholics; there were 700,000 Presbyterians; and in a na-
tion of 8,000,000 they talked of coming to a satisfactory arrange-
, ment for an establishment of Son,ooo.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The Right Hon. Gentleman made use of the Act of Union as an argu.
ment for the ror,ttnuance of tithes , • but did he not know how that Act
was passed ? Did he not know that it had been imeo ed by the hand of
power upon the people?--;Hear, hear.) Did he not know that they ac-
, ceded to it with reluctance, and that they wen' divided by rebellions,
' which were fomented for the worst of purposes ? Did he not know that
the public meetings held against it were put down by the bay suet, and
that the yoke was impoval upon them as if they had been slaves?—
(Hear, hear) When, therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman said that
by the Act of Union Church tempo7alitles had been sanctioned, he as-
serted nothing that was satisfactory or conclusive. The next subject
he would allude. to was the Rom in Catholic Relief Act. He admitted
that it was implied by that Act that the Protestant region should be
secure from the enernechments of the Roman Catholic religion, and
that, in reference to the Climch Estalilishm:nt ; it was for the Pro-
testants to deride whether or not they would increase or dimiaish the
articles of religion. Its disc'pline and its doctrines were all free from
Lis impeachment : but when they came to considerations of pounds,
shilings, and pence, when the came to the payment of money,
he denied that they had granted anything which either expressed or
implied that they had not as good a right to interfere as the Right
Honourable Gentleman himself: He utterly denied that there wee any
contract by which they were boun I to non-interference with respect to
the Church temporalities. He would say that there was no person
more anxious than himself for a settlement of the tithe qui stion. It

had he: imputed to him that he had raised the tithe agitation but
agitation in reference to tithes had existed long before he was born. The
Right Ilotikiur,tb.te Gentleman had said that the public mind of Ireland

was in a state of calm wie.: Tr and to tithes. If it were, the calm was a

fictitious one ; he assured the Right Ibllo,yable Gentleman it was by

110 r;NAZIS so complete as he appeared to suppose. 'Within the last ten
days—and t!;,? Press did not deem it meet now to state the f4ets--642Ve1l

or tug ' ht public meeting:42d been held in Ireland, each attended by from
•SO,OOO to 150,000 persons, who 4.471*d for the purpose of protesting
against tithes, and expressing their determiriatipu npvpr to pay them.
That 1113 the specit,s of calm and tranquillity that really existed.
Now, three persons out of every ligo4rgd had bey n selected to
watch the pro.:,,edings for the recovery of Titters so that a species of
discipline had been adopted, which would, doubtles::, turn out to be of
i very formidable character, but the necessity for which he ardently
hoped woui.l. case to exist. He would not go beyond thts.a two points
of diffet once. The lion ti r aware that heavy arrears were due, and
he would say let such ail arra.lgenieni Ne ;.:13:;de as would extinguish
those a:rears. If hey wished a satisractory settlement cy tl4;;;;;;;stlon
let them ea; ,eqi,ili the arrears, even though to enable theM to do so
they mu. t resort to the ttlig.4.; ezpojent of putting their handi lobo
public treasury. He could assure the flight floc. litironOt that he
toted wisely, when liemid that he would not bind himself to any rate
of reduction. Oa the amount of that reduction cleps.n,icd the chance
a seistltctary settlement. Iu his opinion, a reduction to a. conti.
=able extcnt .44414 r.;.? be ~rtatlip, even if they were obliged to took to
.vee4 to Illske If,e
()tiler s(;:.
.1 ..,mly supply 4 ifrof247.llq rJfei6noe,to
()rests in Ireland won... . /ca.,. near.) wOillti DP/
claims of the present incur.bents.---,.. - -