The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, *`-` WEDN'ESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 28, 1849.

faction apparently of those gentlemen, the resolution
adopting the report was then passed unanimously.
The CHAIRMAN moved, and Mr. HEATHFIELD se-
conded, a resolution, that out of the surplus profits to
the 31st of December last, a dividend be declared for
the half-year, at the rate of two per cent. per annum,
upon the original capital stock of the company, and that
the same be paid to morrow,
This resolution was also carried without a dissentient,
as was also a vote of thanks to Mr. Daniel Maclaurin,
Mr. James Arbouin, and Mr. James P. Woodhouse, for
their valuable services as auditors, and requesting them
to continue their services for another year.
The retiring directors, Mr. John Hopton Forbes,
Count Eyre, Admiral Ward, and Mr. James Rigmaiden,
were unanimously re-elected, they being eligible, and
had offered themselves for re-election.
The thanks of the proprietors having been voted to
the Chairman and directors for the efficiency with which
they performed their duties, and to the Chairman of the
meeting for his conduct in the chair, the meeting
separated.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.

OLD COURT.

CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE NORTH-WESTERN

RAILWAY COMPANY.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
The jury found O'Brien and the male prisoner, Dun-
can, Guilty, but Acquitted the prisoner Mary Duncan, and
The RECORDER sentenced Robert Duncan to im-
prisonment for one year, and O'Brien for six months,
without hard labour.

MORTALITY in the METROPOLIS.
NUMBER OF DEATHS FROM ALL CAUSES REGISTERED IN
THE WEEK ENDLNG SATURDAY, FEB. 24, 1848.
Epidemic, Endemic, and Contagious Diseases ...*3lB
Diseases of Uncertain Seat ~. 53
Turbercular Diseases... ... ... 174
Diseases of the Brain, Nerves, and Senses... ... 132
Diseases of the Heart and Blood-vessels 39
Diseases of the Lungs, and other Organs of
Respiration ... ... 239
Diseases of the Stomach, Liver, and other Organs
of Digestion... ...
Diseases of the Kidneys, &c.
Childbirth, Diseases of the Uterus, 8.1.
Diseases of the Joints, Bones, and Muscles
Diseases of the Skin, &c.
Malformations... ...
Premature Birth ... •• •••
Atrophy ••• ••• ••• ••• •••
Old Age
Sudden ... •..
Violence, Privation, Cold, or Intemperance
Causes not specified ...

... 53

... 23

... 46

... 47

DEATHS FRON ALL CAUSES ...

1,19

Population Average weekly Deaths
Enumerated, Deaths, 1844-8. in the

1841
West Districts... 300,711
North D.4tricts.. 375,971
Central Distras 373,653
East Districts ... 392,444
South Districts .. 501,190

Five Winters. Week,
170 ... 159
318 ... 206
211 ... 185
252 ... 311
319 ... 330

Totals... ..... 1,948,369

-. 1,169

... 1,19

Males
Females

... 605
... 586

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 27.
Their Lordships assembled shortly after Five o'Clock.
Lord MONTEAGLE presented petitions from several
places in Ireland, praying for an alteration in the poor-
laws, and a change in the area of taxation; also a peti-
tion praying for colonial reform.
The Earl of ABERDEEN presented several petitions
against the Scotch Registration Bills.
SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up.
IRISH POOR-LAW.

Lord STANLEY then rose, in pursuance of a notice
which he had given privately to the Marquis of Lans-
downe yesterday, to ask that Noble Marquis to explain
the course intended to be pursued by the Government
with respect to the amendment of the Irish poor-law,
and to reconcile the discrepancy which, to his (Lord
Stanley's) mind appeared irreconcilable, between the lan-
guage and conduct which the Noble Marquis had used
in that House and the language and conduct which the
First Lord of the Treasury had used in the other House
of Parliament, as to the course which the Government
intended to pursue upon a question on which no diffe-
rence of opinion ought to exist in the cabinet.. In order
to place himself in order in the House, he would move
that a message be sent to the House of Commons re-
questing it to communicate to their Lordships the first
report of their Select Committee on the Irish poor-laws.
He cared little whether the motion was granted or nega-
tived, fur, in point of fact, he had that report already,
and merely made his motion as a matter of form. It
would be in the recollection of their Lordships that at
the commencement of the session, when the Noble Mar-
quis opposite moved for the appointment of a Select
Committee to take into consideration the subject of the
Irish poor-laws, he had taken the liberty of presenting
to their Lordships his objections to that motion, although,
in deference to the opinion of some of his Noble Friends,
who thought that inquiry might be useful, he had .ab-
stained from giving any decided opposition to it. But he
had then stated that it appeared to him that the Go-
vernment was going to place itself in a dilemma, from
which it could by no possibility escape. Either Govern-
ment had made up its mind as to the course to be pur-
sued—in which case there was no necessity for inquiry
—or it had not ; and, if it had not, it was preparing to
throw upon the Committee the responsibility of doing
that which it aught to be prepared to do itself. He con-
fessed that he had not anticipated that her Majesty's
Government would have had sufficient ingenuity
to place itself on both horns of that dilemma ;
and yet, if he were not strangely misinformed,
it had succeeded admirably in placing itself in that un-
fortunate position. A Select Committee, he repeated,
had been appointed in both Houses of Parliament, and
that, too, with similar intentions and objects, namely,
to institute further inquiry into the operation of the
Irish poor-law, because it was desirable to produce
certain facts for public information, and to obtain the
advice of both Committees on those facts before Govern-
ment proposed any measure of improvement and reform.
At uny rate, it was with that view that their Lordships
had appointed a Select Committee, and that that Com-
mittee had taken evidence—even the evidence of the
Commissioners engaged in the administration of the
poor-law in Ireland. The Noble Marquis had, as he
(Lord Stanley) thought, correctly and properly laid
before that Committee certain resolutions, to which he
declined pledging himself, which he described as sug-
gestions upon which the Government had come to no
positive conclusion, but which related to various sub-
jects connected with the Irish poor-law, and on
which he stated that it was fitting that full information
should be received in order to gUide the deliberations
and decisions of her Majesty's Ministers. That appeared
to him (Lord Stanley) to be a proper and a reasonable
course; but he was surprised to learn that a different
course had been pursued in the Committee of the House
of Commons, although it had been selected and consti-
tuted, and was to a certain extent controlled by her Ma-
jesty's Government. When that Committee met, reso-
lutions similar to those which had been laid upon the
table of their Lordship's Committee, were moved by
the First Lord of the Treasury, who was at the head of
it, as the Noble Marquis opposite was at the head of
their Lordship's Committee. Those resolutions were,
however, moved in a very different sense, and with a
very different explanation, from that with which they
had been moved among their Lordships. So far from its
having been stated that they related to a matter on which
the Cabinet had not made up its mind, and on which it was
desirable that the Committee should obtain information,
it was declared by the first Lord of the Treasury that
they had been submitted to the Cabinet, and that the
Cabinet was pledged to support them; that they con-
tained the plan of the Government; and that, if they
were net adopted by the Committee, they would be sub-
mitted to Parliament on the responsibility of Ministers.
The next step taken in that Committee was the proposi-
tion of a motion by certain Members not connected with
the Government that on those resolutions so submitted
to them evidence should be taken—a course which was
perfectly in accordance with that adopted by their Lord-
ships. Their Lordships would hardly credit the fact, that
that proposition, so strictly in conformity with that sanc-
tioned by their Lordships, was nentived by the Go-
vernment in the Committee of the House of Commons;
the First Lord of the Treasury taking the initiative in
declaring that Ministers had determined that no change
should take place in, and that no evidence should be
heard upon, those resolutions. From a minute of
that division, it appeared that the First Lord
of the Treasury, the Under Secretary of the Treasury,
and the Secretary for Ireland, had all voted in the ma-
jority; and it was subsequently decided that Govern-
ment should bring in its first resolution on its own re-
sponsibility. Now, mark the inconsistency. In the
Committee of the House of Commons the leader of the
Government declared that the Government was
pledged to the resolutions. In the Committee
of the House of Lords the leader declared
that it was not. In the Committee of the
House of Lords it was held to be a fitting course to hear
evidence; in the Committee of the House of Commons
the First Lord of the Treasury negatived that course,'
and passed his first resolution without producing a single
tittle of evidence; nay, more, he had had that resolution
reported to the House of Commons, had obtained its pre-
sentation as the first report of its Select Committee, and
had himself given notice, that on Thursday next he
would move for a Committee of the whole House, to
take into consideration that single resolution, with a
view of founding upon it a distinct legislative measure
on that grand question, upon which their Lordships
were just commencing to take evidence. There

was a degree of inconsistency in the course pursued in
the one and the other Houses of Parliament which it
was impossible for him to reconcile with the respect
which was due to their Lordships, to the House of Com-
mons, or even to the Noble Marquis opposite—an incon-
sistency which was incompatible with the steady course
of administration, for how could government be steadily
carried on when language so different was addressed to
the different branches of the Legislature? It was not
for him at that moment to discuss whether that resolu-
tion, so passed at the instigation of the Government, and
without any evidence, was correct or not; but he must
say that it was a conclusion which touched on a most im-
portant point—namely, the question of a rate in aid to be
levied on the solvent for the benefit of the in-
solvent parishes, unions, and districts of Ireland.
He hoped that he might be permitted to say
ono word—for he had some personal interest in
the matter—as to the share which he was supposed
to have had in it; for he had been told that the
main proposition then before the House of Commons
had emanated from him.—(The Marquis of Lansdowne
—" No, no.") He was sure that the Noble Marquis op-
posite would instantly disclaim such an imputation be-
fore their Lordships. What he had said, speaking on•
behalf of himself and some other landed proprietors in
Ireland was this—that provided they could obtain such
a subdivision of districts in Ireland as would make
them responsible for their own properties, and their own
properties alone, and as would free them from all
responsibility for the property of others—provided that
Government would remove from the districts which
were pauperised the control of guardians who had
proved themselves inefficient—provided also, the Gcs.
vernment would consent that any sum wliich might be
required ;from them as a rate in aid should be con-
sidered as a loan, repayable by the less fortunate district
in more prosperous times—subject to all these provisoes,
he and they would be ready to pay an insurance on their
properties as a rate in aid to an extent not exceeding
Is. in the pound. Now, the proposition which the
Government had brought forward was the superstruc-
ture which he had proposed to raise, but without the
foundation on which he had intended to rest its basis;
and it was a little too bad, under such circumstances,
that he should be held up as the wiseacre who had pro-
pounded it. With regard to the question of a rate in
aid, he would at once declare that it was not his inten-
tion to discuss it now. It was a question which ought
to be approached with calmness, deliberation, and for-
bearance. He hoped that the proposal for ;raising it
would not be treated as a separate question unconnected
with other considerations; for, if it were "So treated, so
tar should he be from blaming, that he ahould, even par-
ticipate in the feelings of those who urged its instanta-
neous and absolute rejection. The whole'question of the
Irish poor- law should be approached at once; and the
House ought not to be called on to consent to single pro-
positions distinct from and unconnected with each other.
He hoped that this measure, when it was brought
forward, would not be made the subject of mutual
recriminations between Noble Lords and Members of
Parliament connected with England and Ireland respec-
tively. He hoped that the Irish party would not say
that Ireland was a part of the united empire, and that
the rate in aid ought to be paid out of the imperial funds;
he hoped, he said, that such an argument would not be
brought forward; for, thoagh he could -wish•to see Eng-
land Sand Ireland treated as one country both with re-
spect to taxation and legislation, unquestionably they
were not treated so at present; and it was not fair that
Irish proprietors, who claimed exemption from the in-
come-tax and the assessed taxes, as members of a dis-
tinct nation, should, on the one hand, obtain the advan-
tage of their separate position, and should, on the other,
claim a community of interest by throwing a community
of burdens on this country. • He therefore hoped that we
should have no exaggerated pretensions raised by Irish
proprietors to escape contribution to Irish distress. On
the other hand, he hoped that English Peers and Members
of Parliament would not be so. led away by their im-
patience of taxation for Irish purposes as to seek for
any mode, without reference to its justice, of escaping
from the duty of giving aid to Ireland. In conclusion,
he suggested to the Noble Marquis opposite the pro-
priety either of discharging the Committee of their
in the other House of
or of postponing,
eseftr,om further useless and
. idle investigation into
Parliament,
thisr sSuhbi
in aid in Ireland until both Houses had satisfied P
the consideration of the imposition of a rate
them-
selves as to the nature of the whole measure hereafter to
be submitted to the deliberation of Parliament.
T thhetthe
MarquisN
Noble
of
Ltor
opOpWosiNteE,
ia submitting his
perfectly under-
stood

R.
x't

present motion to the House, had merely done so to en-
able himself to put a question to the Government. to
which he would endeavour to give an explicit
answer. The Noble Baron would at once perceive
that, as his questions related not merely to proceedings
in that and the other House of Parliament, but also to
proceedings in Committees of them both—the Noble
Baron, familiar as he was with Parliamentary proceed-
ings, would at once perceive that he (the Marquis of
Lansdowne) eould only answer them with reserve in
point of form, though he might answer them correctly in
point of substance. As to what had occurred in their
own House, he had no difficulty at all in answering. In
their Lordships' Committee he had pursued a course
which he thought consistent with the position of the
Committee, being, as it was, a Committee of Inquiry.
He considered himself to be perfectly justified in laying
before it the substance, and the substance only, of certain
propositions which, he understood, had been made, or
would be made, in the Committee of the House
of Commons. He had not laid them before the Com-
mittee in the shape of resolutions, but had communi-
cated them simply as suggestions which had been, or
might be, made in the other House. He was extremely
desirous that the fullest opportunity should be given to
their Lordships' Committee to examine into all those
suggestions; and he was ready to submit that the fullest
opportunity for inquiry should be also had elsewhere.
He begged their Lordships, however, to consider the
different positions in which the two Houses were placed,
and to enable them to do so be would now proceed to
explain what had occurred in another place. The ques-
tion of the Noble Baron called on him, after explaining
his own conduct in that House, to explain not only the
conduct of one of his colleagues elsewhere, but also to
explain the motives of a number of Members of Parlia-
ment acting in a Committee of the other House, some-
times in accordance with, and sometimes in opposition
to, the Government. He possessed no particular infor-
mation on those points. It was notorious, however, that
a proposition made by his Noble Colleague, the First
Lord of the Treasury, to the Committee of the House
of Commons, bad been assented to by a large majority
of it,. and that there had been subsequently another mo-
tion made by, another Noble Friend of his own, which
had also been assented to. It was impossible
for him (the Marquis of Lansdowne) to explain the
course so taken without assuming the motives which
might have influenced his two Noble Friends
and the other Members of the Committee. The reasons
laid before that Committee embraced a vast variety of
topics—not so confined as to make the future sitting of
their Lordships' Committee idle and useless, because a
too hasty decision had been come to on one point, but
involving a multitude of questions connected with the
whole condition of Ireland, into all of which, no matter
whether one of them was adopted or rejected, it was
fitting that the Committee should inquire. Now, he
begged to call the attention of their Lordships to this
fact, that at present the only resolution which had been
assented to by the Committee in the other house of Par-
liament, and which now stood before it as a legislative
proposition, was a resolution indispensably connected with
the immediate relief of Ireland, now plunged into a state of
the utmost and most appalling distress; and it might oc-
cur to their Lordships, as it did occur to him, as a reason
for the course taken in that Committee, that the members
of it, anxious. as they were to obtain the most com-
plete information on every point connected with the
Irish poor-law, were'still more anxious upon one point,
on which there was no room for delay, namely, on that
which was connected with the providing subsistence for
the famishing poor of Ireland during the next few
months. • He had no hesitation in saying that he wished
that no separation had been made between the first re-
solution and those which immediately ;followed it. He
had no hesitation in saying that he thought that if any-
thing in the shape of immediate relief was to be enter-
tained it ought to be entertained in conjunc-
tion with another proposition, of which the effect
would be to establish a maximum of poor-rate
in all the counties of Ireland. He was of opinion that
the establishment of such a maximum in conjunction
with the preservation of the lives of the people of Ire-
land was an object of paramount importance. He be-
lieved that in the absence of such a maximum, the un-
certainty attending on the amount to which the poor-
rates might be raised in counties where the potato crop
had entirely failed was an item which deserved tobe taken
into account along .with any other measures which
only
ybst
tbaetindgevtihseadt
which
hhe
wbaesneefiotnosifsttehnet
withdistriett.he Hkenotvwas.
ledge of many of their Lordships when he stated, that in
some counties of Ireland it was impossible to let land
which had been abandoned, except in the most objec-
tionable of all forms, namely, that of small allotments,
and that the effect of the poor-law, as it now stood,
without any rectification, was to give direct encourage-
ment to that which all legislation should be directed to
discourage—the infinite subdivision of land in Ireland,
the source of all the mischiefs which their Lordships
were then seeking to obviate. He certainly wished that
that part of the resolutions which related to the rate in
aid had been combined, and had gone together with a
proposition for establishing a maximum of rate. He was
not able, as he said before, to explain the motives of
those Members of the other House of Parliament who
bad thought it necessary to separate the
two, and to report the former only to the
House for separate legislation. He was, how-
ever, prepared to say that, seeing the great emer-
gency of Ireland seeing the necessity of affording im-
mediate relief to the absolute starvation of hundreds in
that country, seeing the necessity of providing a remedy
at once for an existing evil, they might argue thus with
themselves:—" We will report that resolution which
will meet and repress the most urgent evil, and, while we
do that, we will take time to consider the propriety of
establishing a maximum rate, the amount which it shall
not exceed, and the regulations to which it shall be sub-
ject." He could not positively say that such were the
motives of those Hon. Members, but it seemed to him
likely that such motives might have governed their
conduct. In the other House of Parliament it was
quite clear. that he could not discourage the early
introduction of legislative measures which required
long time for deliberation. Inquiry was still going on
there into this very important and delicate subject, and
the introduction of a Bill into the House of Commons
at this period of the session might save much time be-
fore the conclusion of it. In the Committee appointed
by their Lordships opportunity had been afforded,
and would be afforded, to prosecute inquiry, not only
into this, but into every other point connected
with the administration of the poor-laws. He there-
fore considered that there was nothing but an apparent
inconsistency in the course recommended by Govern.
ment to the two Committees, Their Lordships oould not
come soon to a conclusion on the points submitted to
them, and the House of Commons had found it necessary
to apply immediate relief to impending starvation. He
fully agreed with the Noble Baron, that a rate in aid
without any limitation was subject to very grave and se-
rious objections; and he said so, considering it as intro-
duced into the permanent legislation of Ireland. He had
not, however, had any opportunity before the present to
say that no consideration upon earth would induce him
to assist in carrying a measure which would establish a
rate in aid as part of the permanent poor-law of Ireland.
It was only as a temporary expedient to afford facilities
for meeting a great and existing evil that the present
measure, limited as it was in amount and in time, had re-
ceived his acquiescence. Further than that measure he
ctpeol
mourl
edw
tbnhi coo
ithr
Lord;
would 9; r ndas
hy, m
be
ip
speov
notri
ne a, t
permanently
ee should
cnot
concur
ub
injuriousrn ee stabtestablishing
spreparedhtihneg
aon im-
ds
us-
trial interests -of Ireland. In conclusion he concurred in
the propriety of Lord Stanley's recommendation that this
question should be calmly discussed, without any angry
recriminations between English and Irish landed pro-
prietors.
Lord BROUGHAM had experienced great pleasure
in remarking the reluctance with which his Noble Friend
opposite had given his acquiescence to the proposition
for a rate in aid. He hoped that further consideration
would lead hisiNmoubmlevFarteieien a
Friend toseweistehndreafweexvterine
nethadtiesctvaenetey,
and nh
t atn acquiescence.
ge
aprobability
vnmaximum
He pointed out the impossibility of main-
x ability
of the maximum soon becoming the
minimum rate in ordinary times. He trusted that this
grant of 50,0001. would be the last grant made to Ire-
land, and lamented that, by the absurd forms of the
two Houses of Parliament, their Lordships would not
have an opportunity
ed d
euxnpreersestieneg, their
wa e
thenopinionbyuploenavie
withdrawn. t
until every farthing of the 50,000/. had been spent.
The motion, otion, as we

ex officio board. He would never be a party
to the creation of an irresponsible power.
There was another Bill which was likely also to be re-
ferred to a Committee. If they meant honestly by these
Bills. they would re:er them both to a Committee up stairs.
—(Hear, hear.) At any rate they would concur in the
rejection of this Bill, and not allow an attorney to foist
this measure on his fellow. citizens without their consent.
Mr. GROGAN trusted that her Majesty's Ministers
would not vote against this Bill without inquiry.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE had already stated to the
House that this was the least desirable of the two mea-
sures; and thinking the Bill was a bad Bill he should
oppose it now. He trusted that some postponement of
the Bill would therefore take plaice.
Mr. REYNOLDS—My motion is that the Bill be read
a second time this day six months.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Reynolds's motion, that the Bill be read a
second time that day six months
For Mr. Sidney Herbert's amendment, that the
Bill be read a second time that day fortnight
Majority for Mr. Herbert's amendment
The Bill was then ordered to be read a second time
this day fortnight.
LEEDS AND THIRSK RAILWAY.
The Leeds and Thirek Railway (power to guarantee
interest on certain shares, &c.) Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed.
LONDON AND BLACKWALL RAILWAY.
The London and Blackwall Railway (Amendment
and Extension of Time) Bill was also read a second time
and ordered to be committed.

NORTH STAFFORDSHIRE RAILWAY.
The North Staffordshire Railway Amendment of Acts
Bill was also read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted.

of Ireland is paid into the Imperial treasury, and placel
at the disposal of the Imperk.l Lr.g.islature for the general
purposes of the empire.

VAN DIEMENS LAND.

Mr. ANSTEY gave notice that he should on this (1,,,y
fortnight move an address to the Crown, praying that
her Majesty's Ministers should not unnecessarily itiii,r-
fere with the members of the Supreme Court of that
island.

DENUNCIATIONS IN IRELAND.
Sir J. TYRELL gave notice that he shouh on this
day fortnight move for a copy of the denunciation pub.
lished in Ireland on the 3d of May, 1848; also for copies
of the police reports relative to the denunciations in
Kenmare, dated 18th March, 1848 ; 17th April, 1848 ;
24th April, 1848 ; 19th May, 1848 ; and also for copies
of the correspondence which had passed on the subject
between her Majesty's Ministers and the Government in
Ireland.

THE WAR IN THE PUNJAUB.
Mr. GEORGE THOMPSON moved for returns of
the British troops, regular and irregular, ordered by
the Governor-General of India, or any subordinate
functionary, to take the field in the Punjaub, from the
18th of April to the 31st of December, 1848, showing
the number of guns, the number of regiments or
detachments of regiments, and the strength of each
regiment or detachment in officers and men ; also
for a return of the camp followers attached to,
and officially reported by, each regiment, de-
tachment, and field department of the troops
so employed; also for a return, showing the number of
combatants and non-combatants that were paid by the
Field Pay department, or subsisted by the Field Com-
missariat department, during each month of the above
period; also for a return of the number of native al-
lies, whether commanded by British officers or native
sirdars, that were in the field or maintained during the
same period. _ _ _

SirJ. HOBHOUSE had no objections that the returns
should be ordered, but he did not think they would ever
be got.—The returns were then ordered to be made.
REGISTERED STEAM-VESSELS OF THE