The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-15 00:00:00

£6,387,796

6;647;799

Difference - - - - • 260,000
The variance in this item was satisfactorily explained by car-
rying the amount of the produce of old stores (260,0001,) to
the account of the public in the Navy Estimates for the follow-
ing year.
ORDNANCE.
Public Account - - a .41 401 588

Account of the Marquis of Londonderry

Difference - - -
MISCELLANEOUS.

Public Account

Account of the Marquis of Londonderry

Difference

1;092;292

309, 296

.2,616,736

2,492;41

124,495

Besides all these variations, the House would see the great ob-
scurity in which the succeeding items—the payment to the
Bank of England to make their balance, on account of un-
claimed dividends and the articles of discount upon prompt
payment, and for their allowance for receiving the loan.—He
trusted that the Hon. Member would be able to clear up the
confusion which prevailed in this part of the statement. He
begged to call the attention of the House next to the variation
in the item of the balance in the Exchequer for the year end-
ing January, 1821 :
, Public Account - £13,423,938
Account of the Marquis of Londonderry 7,489,745

Difference - - - - 5,934,193
Here was a difference.of an extraordinary nature. He should
be told, of course, that he was a very ignorant-person not to be
able to account for the variation ; but these accounts were
unexplained. There were other items in the public account,
such as the charge of the Civil Government in Scotland,the Pen-
sions in Scotland, and the Militia items; none of those appeared
in the account of the Noble Lord. However, notwithstand-
ing all the variations which the two accounts presented, yet
it was wonderful how, in the sum total, they approximated
to each other. The total sums in each account stood thus :
Public Account - - - £53,340,111
Account of the Marquis of Londonderry 53,095,377

Difference - 244,734
To those who did not usually apply themselves to the examina-
tion of these details, it might appear that balances in the Ex-
chequer meant sums of money unappropriated. But the case
was otherwise—the balance, in fact, was already appropriated.
With respect to the Sinking Fund, he should at present abstain
from entering into any details. Unless the Hon. Uentleman
explained to the House satisfactorily the cause of these varian-
ces, he should undoubtedly feel it his duty to press the motion
to a division. He was persuaded that a very considerable saving
might be made to the country annually by a more intelligible
statement of the public accounts. He did not mean to charge
those who prepared the accounts with any intention to deceive ;
but there was a want of perspicuity in the account& which called
for a thorough reformation. He concluded by moving, " That
a Select Committee be appointed to simplify, and for the better
arrangement of the public accounts." -
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that with regard to the delay
which occurred in the production of the Public Accounts, that
was attributable to the busy state of the offices at this particular
season, when the clerks were employed in making up the ac-
counts of the year. Upon the other head (namely, the dif-
ferences in the Accounts presented by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer and his Noble Friend near him), he hoped to be
able to give a satisfactory answer. The mode in which he would
reconcile the difference of these two accounts was this : that class
called the Finance Accounts, but were more properly Exche-
quer Accounts, and which was that presented by his Right
Hon. Friend, contained payments into the Exchequer only,
whereas the Accounts presented by the Noble Marquis, on the
15th of. February, related to the net income of the country ap-
plicable to the public service for the year. Now, it should be
remarked, that the whole of the Revenue of the year was not
paid into the Exchequer; and, on the other hand, there were
monies paid into the Exchequer which never went to the public
service of the year.—(Hear 0)-Hence arose the difference in the
accounts. Having thus accounted for the differences generally,
he should proceed to the items. The first item was the. Cus-
toms, the amount of which was stated,
In the Finance Accounts, at - - £9,862,462
In the Accounts of the oble Marquis, at 9,837,279

Difference - 25,183
This arose from certain monies, arising from the 4i per cent.
duties, being paid into the Exchequer, which did not go to the
service of the year, and were not, therefore, put in the Noble
Lord's Account. The SoutJ Sea Duties, to the amount of
8401., were also payable into the Exchequer by the Receiver-
General, and this made up the whole difference. The Excise
was the next item ; which, in both Accounts, was stated at
27,929,3531. ; and, as there was no difference, the same obser-
vation applied to the Stamps. In the Post-office there was a
difference of 7,0001. He would reconcile this by stating that
the last payment, which was exactly 7,0001., was not paid in

by the Receiver-General until after the 10th of January ; and
as the Accounts had been made up the sth January, this item
of course did not enter into them. He admitted, however, that
for the sake of regularity, this item should be placed to the ac-
count of the year. The next difference in the Accounts was in
the taxes, which was stated at 24,0001. This was accounted for
by the transfer from one head of tax to another. The differ-
]ences in the Hackney Coaches and Chairs of 1,1621., and of
'Hawkers and Pedlars of 3,0001. were to be accounted for upon
' the same prinCiple as the Post-office, namely—that sums to
this amount had been, paid in subsequently to the sth January,
and were not, therefore, in the Accounts before the House.—
In the item of " One shilling and sixpence duty, and duty
on Pensions," there was no difference. The duty of 4s. on
Pensions, amounting to 15,4931., certainly was not in the
Finance Accounts at all ; and this lie considered an omission.
The difference in the Accounts with regard to Unclaimed Divi-
dends was accounted for as being repaid to the Bank. The dif-
ference 'of 260,0001. in the Account of the Proceeds of Old
Stores had been transferred to the Navy Estimates, which were
so much less. There were other smaller items, which he would
not notice. He admitted that the difference in the Fines and
Forfeitures, which amounted to 4171., was not in the Finance
Account. The differences, therefore, between the two Accounts
were easily reconcilable, by the circumstance of one Account
containing returns of monies paid into the Exchequer; and the
other of the net income of the year. He would reconcile the
differences in the expenditure in the same way. One Account
contained a return of the sum issued from the Exchequer to the
Army, Navy, and Ordnance—the other, the absolute charge of
these establishments. But he did not mean to say that this,
mode of keeping the Accounts was the best.—(Hear.)—lf he had
said so, he should be inconsistent, as it was the intention of his
Right Honourable Friend to move for a Committee to examine
into these Accounts. But he contended that there was no blame
attributable to the Treasury upon this. score. The Accounts
were kept now as they had been since 1802 ; and, indeed,
there was an Act passed in that year for regulating them. He
concurred with Gentlemen at the other eide, however,that some
new arrangements should be introduced into these Accounts.
—But he (Mr. Lushington) hoped he had shewn that
in the Accounts, so far as they went, referred to by the Hon.
Member, there was no material incorrectness. Under these
circumstances he saw no necessity for the Committee moved
for by the Honourable Member. He was more induced to •
think so, as his Right Honourable Friend intended so soon
to move for his Committee for the arrangement of the
Public Accounts: As, however, these differences appeared
in the Public Accounts, he had no objection to the appoint-
ment of a Committee to reconcile these differences; but he
should decidedly oppose their going further, as they would
but forestall the duties of his Right Honourable Friend's
Committee. It may be recollected too, that his Right Hon.
Friend intended giving to his Committee larger powers than
the Hon. Member would give to the Committee for which he
was now moving. The Committee for general revision would
be more properly called to the consideration of the public Ac-
counts after the 25th March, when all the Accounts for the
year would be before the House. He should therefore propose,
as an amendment, " That a Select Committee be appointed to
consider from what causes the accounts of payments into the
Exchequer up to the sth January appear not to agree with the
Finance Accounts of the net income of the year presented to
this House upon the 15th of Feb. 1822."
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the accounts of the public re:
venue ought to be so plain as to be obvious to every intelligent
mind—they ought to be so plain as to render it unneceisary for a
NI ember of that House to be obliged to go into a detail of an hour •
in length, in order to see how one account could be reconciled
with another. Such was the manner in which the accounts of
every well regulated mercantile house were kept. He was sure
that a mercantile house of any character whatever would feel
itself disgraced if its accounts required any statement whatever
to explain them—if the Book-keeper should be obliged to say,
though innumerable errors are on the face of these accounts,
yet I can account for and explain those errors. He (Sir J.
Newport) asked for no explanation of errors—he wished to know
why those errors should have existed. It was not the first time
that he (Sir J. Newport) called the attention of that House to
the state of the Public Accounts. He had known the same
Accounts furnished from the same office, even after,the short
interval of three months, vary most materially. The cause
was that the artificial' mode adopted in the keeping of the
Public. Accounts served much more to complicate than to sim-
plify thope accounts.
Captain MABERLY said, that he would detain the House
but with one single observation ; it was to point out the dif-
ference between the motion of his Hon. Relative and the
Amendment moved by the Hon. Secretary of the Treasury.
•The motion of his Hon. Relative ras for a Select Committee,
for the purpose of simplifying and better arranging the public .
Accounts. The Amendment of the Hon. Secretary only went
to the investigation of particular accounts. The one had a
mere retrospective action—the other an action at once prospec-
tive and general.
Mr. RICARDO said, that the public accounts ought to he
so plain as that every person at first sight, should be able to see, ,
and clearly understand them, to see how the different items
were stated, and how the balance stood. He should have ex-
-^pected that the statements of the Noble Lord and the Right
Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
respecting the public accounts should agree ; but so far
from agreeing, they differed very widely indeed. No one'
meant to throw imputations on the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman ; no one meant to say that he or his Colleagues would
wilfully make up improper accounts, but what he wished to
see effected was, that instead of being complicated, the public
accounts should be stated so plainly as to satisfy every intel-
ligent person that might take the trouble of inspecting them.
Mr. HUME rose amidst loud cries of Question, question.—
He said, he wished the House to understand thoroughly that
which they were so loudly calling for. He saw great room here
in these accounts for improvement, but if the amendment were
carried, he thought but little would be effected. The Treasury
admitted the system to be imperfect, and it seemed to be the in-
tention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bring the subject
on a broad scale before the House shortly ; he should therefore
suggest to his Hon. Friend to withdraw the motion, if he could
obtain the leave of the House, and the Hon. Secretary for the
Treasury would consent to withdraw his amendment, leaving
the matter open to be dealt with by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite in the manner best suited to .public convenience.
In the years 1815, 1816, 1817, indeed up to the present moment,
the House had voted sums of money, which were not yet ac-
counted for. The duty of the Committee would be, therefore,
to examine into the expenditure and applicatinn of those sums.
He should conclude by expressing his hope, that the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would redeem the pledge he had given last
year, and bring this subject fairly before the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt surprised
at the charge of incorrectness applied to the papers laid upon
the table of the House, by his Right Hon. Friend. He could
have no objection th3t the whole of the question should be-fully
discussed ; but he wished that discussion should be postponed.
until the meeting of the Cemmittee for the appointing of which
he meant to move, and which be should propose to be perfectly
similar to that appointed last year. As soon as that Committee
should be appointed, it would be his duty to name a day for
the discussion of the whole subject. On that understanding he
hoped hie. Hon. Friend would consent to withdraw his motion.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CALCRAFT said he was sure the House and the coun-
try
.would feel obliged to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Maberly) for
drawing the public attention to the mistakes which appeared in
the public accounts. But as the General Committee which the
Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in-
timated his intention to move for, would necessarily embrace
the object of his Hon. Friend, he trusted that his Hon. Friend
would withdraw his motion. •
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EX--
CHEQUER,
Mr. MABERLY said, that his object in bringing forward
motion which he had that night submitted to the House, was-
solely to devise a plan by means of which the public accounts
might be rendered more simple, more intelligent, and satisfac-
tory. He would, however, after what had fallen from the Right
Hon. Gentleman, withdraw his motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then gave no-
tice, that on the 18th of April he would move for a Committee
of the House to consider the state of keeping the public accounts,
and for simplifying the same.
RUSSIAN TARIFF.

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said, that a question
had some nights since been put to him, whether a document
which had appeared in the public papers under the shape of a
new Tpriff was correct ? To that question he answered, that
he had received no information respecting the Tariff ; but he
now begged to say, that since that conversation took place, he
had received dispatches dated the 22d of February, which stated,
that no Tariff up to that period had been issued. He therefore
was now at liberty to say that the document in question was not
correct.

Lord ALTIIORP gave notice of a motion for the Reveal of
the Tax on Leather, for the 24th of April.

BOARD OF CONTitOI

Mr. CREEVEY began by observing, with reference to the
motion of which he bad given notice relative to the Board of
Control, that he had frequently made observations in that
I-louse as to the propriety of making some alterations in the•
formation of that Board. He bad done this without success,
notwithstanding that some late changes had offered a favour
able opportunity for putting his plan into execution. The
Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to detail the different
changes that had taken place in the Board since its origin.
They all knew the difference of opinion relative to the forma-
tion of the Board, between Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt. It was in
the year 1784. in consequence of an agreement betwixt the
East India Company and Government, that Mr. Pitt formed

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the plan of the Board of. Control. In introducing., the mea-
sure for its establishment to that House, he declared that it
Was to be accompanied with no salaries, no offices, and no
Patronage, at the same time that be himself volunteered to
become the President of it, without salary. He kept his
Word, and for nine years he continued to bold the situation
without salary. But in 1793 the Bill fell into the hands of
Lord Melville, and then was effected that change which had

aver since existed from this romantic, gratuitousmanagement
of the affairs of India. By the Act, which he then obtained
to be passed, salaries were appended to the situations of three
Commissioners, one of whom, Lord Melville, as President,
took 2,0001. a-year to himself, and gave 1,5001. each to the
Other two. Another change was shortly after made, by which
that Noble Lord's Family received pensions to the amount of
boor. a-vear from the same source. In 1811, however, the
present Lord Melville became President of this Board, and it
Was his opinion that his father had been too moderate in fix-
ing the amount of salaries, and he added 6,0001. to the sum
for the support of the Board, making 50001. the salary for the
President. Before he left the Board be received 20,00001. in
hard money from the present Company, and this he thought
was a pretty tolerable specimen of an establishment which
was to be without salaries, without offices, and without pa-
tronage.—(Hear I.)—lii 1813 a new agreement was entered
Into with the East India Company, only two years after the
receding one, by which the total sum for the support of the
'loud, of Control was raised to 26,0001. In this new arrange-
thent,it was true, no further allowance was made to the Com-
Missioners, but .a scale of superannuation was introduced, 'n
favour of the Secretary and some others attached to the Board.
".us, then, he had shewn how this Board had come, step by
Step, till it descended into the situation of a regular purchase
f a family interest in that House.—(Hear, bear!)—He knew
It would be said that the Board consisted of ten persons, and
that was true; but then seven were outside passengers, the
three inside places being reserved far the family.—(Laughter.)
''lt was a real domestic Board; and what, he asked, was to
'entitle the Managers of India affairs to have a Board to them-
'etre! ? No interlopers, no intruders, a complete family
_rtY, with nobody but themselves to do as they pleased.—
arty,
question was, was it a Board or not ? Sup-
ill' any one were to wish to see this domestic Board at
t,„
°ll,-esettling the question of a Mahratta war, or discussing
?ale poiut of Indian olic for instance, could it be seen ?
And what could beia more instructive than to have an oppor-
taaity of observing the way in which they settled the knotty
Point, of giving the casting vote!—(A laugh.)—lt was ru--
°loured that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Can-
t; lag) was to be sent to India. Now what would any one give
rult
° see the instructions of this Board to this individual ?
rugliter.)—He would not venture to express an opinion as
what the booksellers would give for such a thing—for such
trial article as these Commissioners telling the Right Hon.
elate:nap how he was to conduct himself in his situation—
What to say to such a Prince and such another.—(Laughter.)
'-fieknew the answer to all this would he, that there was
„t;° .Board; and he should he,much inclined to coincide in the
danion of those who should so say. He would tell the
41ouse why he felt so disposed. It happened that he bad
hi
„aeself been Secretary, once upon a time, to this Board.—
"lheers from the Ministerial benches.)—He did not know
vaat to make of that shout of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite
t he most state, that during the thirteen months he was
;here, there was no Board at all that he ever saw. And as
Ile was Secretary to it, the House might be disposed to con.
cur With him in opinion that it was more than probable he
would have known of it; if such a thing bad existed.--(Hear,
'4nd latighter.)--His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney) sat in
room, himself in another, and the Gentlemen Commis.
*loners in a third.—(Hear !)—He was not content, however,
,without his own means of observation over a period of Usk.
"an 'months on this important point, so he asked a Orson
in the office, whether in the memory of man such a thing
ra a Board bad ever existed ? The Gentleman to whom be
d addressed himself, of whom he could not say too much,
either for his industry or Isis talents in his situation, an-
;were(' him with great simplicity, that to the best of his k now-
edge there never had.—(Hear, hear! and a laugh!)—He
Must also state, that during all the time lie was there, there
Z,as not business enough for the situation.—(Hear, from Mr.
ourtenay.)—He was glad to see the Hon., Gentleman exert
himself; for as he got a higher salary than he bad, he ought
to do something more for it.—(A laugh.)—The object of the
ltotioa was, that the House should name a Committee to see
If what he represented on this subject was true. The Noble
olarquis opposite might appoint it if he liked—he might be'
one °Mir Committee—The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.Can-
hing) -another, and any Grenville that pleased, and lie defied
them to report otherwise than be had stated. If it turned out
that he was right, then be should ask why were the persons
composing this Board allowed to sit in that House? He
really was shocked to make any reference to the Constitution,
but so long as there were Statutes he might be permitted to
refer to them. It was notorious that the Statute of the Sixth
,of Anne declared that no one holding a place under Govern-
anent, except some specified, should after that sit in that
liouse. But here were four Gentlemen in direct contradiction
'to that Statute. Though they were of no use at the Board,
Perhaps, it was thought they might be in the House. The
IM.II George 11. (permitted every Secretary of State to have a
*rat in the House, bat not to have more than one Under-
- „„ceretary. He raised no question as to the utility of official '
Persons in the House, but he asked if there ever was such a
l'iolat ion of common sense, and of the provisions of this Act,
as to have four persons there to represent the India Board,
When only one Secretary, and one Udder Secretary of State
Were allowed. Fur the latter there might be sonic use; for
the former none. There used to be formerly a regular expo-
sition of the affairs of the East India Company. It was not so
L'c'w, and he believed, beyond moving a vote of thanks to the
,prquis Hastings, no motion had hen niade for sonic years.
Wo would be too much, four were preposterous, and the fact
of their being permitted to be there was a proof of the decay
of all proper, interest about the Constitution. He knew that
;');!e obvious answer to his objections to the size of this esta-
,;ltilinent might he, that the Company paid for it all.—
that Company, he knew, dealt in tea; but be did not know
!Atit. there was any thing in their charter about dealing
in, Members of Parliament.—(A laugh.)—The sum of 26,0001.
4tti out in the purchase of Members of that House would make
Pretty addition to the placemen already in it.—(Laughter.)
But the right view to take of this was, not what the Hon.
Members themselves cost, but what their votes cost the coon.
1'7% The Learned Doctor opposite (Dr. Phillinsore) for its-
saaoe, Cost a great deal. He was not to he estimated at the
cost of 26,0001. ; but as having cost the country the 1,500,0001.
r‘aised by. the Salt Tax.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—He begged
:'eir attention to this, and he pledged himself to skew them
;I:at he was indeed a must expensive article. This Doctor—
ILatighter, and cries of " Order, order.")—well, then, this
Darned Doctorthe Learned Civilian, it would be in the
:!collection of the House, strenuously opposed the repeal of.
Salt Tax, when it was proposed a short time ago. And
when they came to a division, it appeared that the Learned
elector, and his party, making four, were the champions of
the Salt Tax. He would not go into the question of whether
4 was dear or cheapito the company.; it was sufficient that be
flat) cost the nation I,soo,oool.—(Hear and laughter.)—lf he
and his friends had been upon that side of the House, they
would hare obtained the repeal by two. Here he could not
terrain from quoting to the House language. which be thought
of a prophetic nature, and which was the more entitled to
"aonsideratitin, as it was the language of the good old country-
al en of that House. It was uttered during the latter pat t of
the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole, at the time when
the Gentleman in question had been supporting a Mr. Sams,
14. his endeavours to pass a Place Bill to lessen the influence
'°f the Crown in that House. He bad been nearly successful
,in this laudable endeavour; but the time came when Mr.
Sams
changed sides, and it was the dilemma of the Country
'Gentlemen in missing his support that created the sentiments
• 'th which he had alluded. The Place Bill upon this occasion
Was again brought forward ; but instead of meeting its usual
supports Mr. Sams .opposed it. He was sure that the senti-
snents then expressed would appear interesting to the House,
And meet the support of the new Board and the new Presi-
dent, when he mentioned that the name of thespeaktr was Sir
walkin Williams Wynn.—(Laughter, and loud cries of
,„" Rear 1" from Sir. W. Williams Wynn.)—He assured the
4lort. Baronet •that no descendant of Sir W. Williams Wynn
heed be ashamed of the sentiments lie was about to quote, for
they did honour to the individual who avowed them. After
referring to the fate of his motion in the previous Session, he
4441--" But I know that Gentlemen often change their senti-
ments with their situation's ; and that their notions about the
_„erown and the,peopli display a great variance, when deliver-
" at from plain Country Gentlemen, or as from the posses-
sors of an office in the state. Now if any of that kind should
occur on the present occasion, it would no doubt tend to dis-
aPpoint the motion ; at the same time it would slim, that if
Place had no other tendency, it went at least to bias the judg-
ment, and to make persons think that right, which before
therthought wrong." Now, if that was not the case with
the Doctor, he would be content to admit that there was no-
thing prophetic its the language he bad quoted.—(A laugh.)s-But this country Gentleman went on to anticipate, in the
Most minute detail, what had since occurred to his own blood.
For, said he, "It is too much to think that the judgment is
not to be biassed by 5001. or 1,0001., and, aboiiall, by's,oool.
a-year.”—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)—This was the. lan-
guage held eighty years ago by a country Gentleman. He
was a County Member, and speaking on the same subject as
that on which he (Mr. C.) was then addressing the House,
with this difference, that he moved, fur a general reduction of
placemen in the House of Commons, whilst his (Mr. C.'s)
motion only called for inquiry into the utility of • two of
them. Having done with the great men of the Board, he
would descend to the worthy Secretary (Mr. Ceurtenay), who, ,

as he had nothing to do with the affairs of India, must at
least possess great art to.be able to get his salary raised three
different times 7001. more than it was before he held the si-
tuation. For his own part, be had. never asked for more, fur
be thought, that no public servant was ever better paid, espe-
cially-considering how little he had to do. He now thought
he had'made out an irresistible case for inquiry, and should
conclude by-moving,—"That it be referred to a Select Com-.
mitte to examine into the different duties annexed to the of.
fice of the Commissioners for the Management of the Affairs
of India, by whom the same are performed, and report their
observations to the House thereupon."
Mr. COURTENAY declared, that he was not induced thus
early in the debate to offer himself to the attention of the
House, in consequence of the personal allusions that had
been made to himself. He would leave those who were the
authors of the act with regard to him, so 'odious in the eyes
of the Honourable Gentleman, to answer him on that point:
He would only state,.-that; upon his honour, from what be
knew of the duties of the office, and of the manner he had
discharged them, and he regarded it as a moral crime to take
a salary without doing ample duty for it—that he looked
back with infinitely greater satisfaction• to the part he bad
performed than the Honourable Gentleman by his own ac-
count could do.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Froni.the moment he
had seen the notice of the Honourable Gentleman relative to
the Board of Contioul, be confessed lie had felt some anxiety
as to the nature of it, and knowing the relationship he had
formerly had with that Board, it did not occur' to him that
the Honourable Gentleman meant to come down there, and
with bead abased, and face suffused with blushes, confess
with shame that he bad allowed himself to have held a
sinecure.—(Hear, hear!)—He expected too that he would
have included in his aspersions all those who had held places
like himself in that Establishment. But although he did not
hesitate to heap 'animadversions on the most respectable
Noblemen, be could not help admiring the ingenuity with
which he evaded the task of including the Right Honourable
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Tierney.) He had not
dared to joke with him, well knowing that lie was a pretty
severe band himself in that way. With regard to the mo-
tion of the Honourable Gentleman, he had to observe, that
he called for an inquiry which should never he granted, but
on a very strong case being made out. It. was to shew that
no such case had been made out that he offered himself so
early to the attention of the House, conceiving himself com-
petent from a ten years knowledge of the duties of the office
to give the House information as to the important nature of
them. The Hon. Gentleman had rightly stated, in saying that
it was at the outset of this Institution attempted to perform
the great and important duties of the Board without salary.
But it was to be observed that, at that period, there was
not one attached to it who had not a salary from some other
source; and in 1792 the system of paying the Commissioners
began. In describing the nature of the duties they had to
perform, lie need not expatiate on the immense extent of the
British possessions in India, which were entrusted to the care-
of this Board; but he would observe, that the extent of their
duties was not to be estimated by extent of territory; for the
management of the affairs of that country was infinitely more
intricate and multiplied than those of any other. Every
single act of every Judge, and of other officers, to which no
importance was attached in other countries, underwent the
strictest scrutiny by this Board, and by other powers. First,
it passed under the observation of the Supreme Council in
India; next it underwent the examination of the India House ;
and lastly the Act itself,—and the acts of these bodies were
subjected to a minute, constant, systematic, vigilant, cons
trout, which, - he was there to assert, was daily performed at
the. Board of Controul.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not blame
the Hon; Gentleman, because he did not perform part of a
similar system in his time ; for the Board had taken many
'years to grow up to its present station of importance.—(Hear.)
—He declared, before God, that if he were giving evidence
on oath in a Court of Justice, be would say nothing else:—
(Hear, hear.)—Considering the short time the Honourable
Gentleman, belonged to the office, it could not' be charged
upon him as blame, for it :required two or three years
to become acquainted with the nature of the business.—
He particularly pointed to the revenue and judicial de.
partments, which were peculiar to this Board. Since 1807,
a completely new organization of the Board had taken
'place. It had been divided into departments, correspond-
ing with the great divisions of the Indian Empire; and
he was sure that not a paragraph came from India, or
went to it, that did not undergo the most particular, and in
some cases, enlightened scrutiny. As to the Judicial De-
partment for the collection of the Revenue, the whole merit
of that important change was due to a clerk in the office—a
Gentleman be believed of the name of Coniniings.—(Hear,
hear !)—The effect of this change had been to bring upon the
Board of Control a load of busisiess, and of most important,
which was no more to be- compared to the small adineasure-
' mentssf the Hon. Gentleman, (ban the affairs of the county
of Rutland were to be compared to those of the whole British
Empire. Without taking any merit to himself, he owned
that since he had been connected with the office, be hail given
his best attention to its duties; but he was utterly incapable
of placing a clear view of the whole before the President. At
the same time the President received the most efficient arid
meritorious assistance from the junior Commissioners of the
Board. The Noble Member for Rochester, for instance, had
applied himself to the judicial and revenue department, and:
had mastered the subject in a manner that did him high cre-
dit. With regard to himself, he had not the least objection
to have his conduct examined. He devoted as much of his
time to the Board as he was able; but still he must confess
that he was not competent to lay all the mass of business be-
fore the President. If they had six Commissioners More, he
would undertake to give them all as lunch business as would
last them for a fortnight. The largest bundles of papers that
came before that House were mere abridgments to what they
bad to deal with at the Board of Control. And what did it
signify, whether there were those regular meetings of the
Board, which the Hon. Gentleman seemed-to think so neces.
sary to the dispatch of business? When his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Canning) was President, lie was rather averse from form;
and although he (Mr. Courtenay) did not regularly take
his seat at the bottom of the Board with his pen behind
his ear, slid it follow that the business was less effectively
done ? With regard to the discontinuance of opening an
India Budget to that -House it had taken place from the
great dislike the House spewed towards it, since it al-
ways had the effect of clearing the benches. They had
at this present moment most important business before
the Board, arising out of the- Mahratta war, and iii six
months he expected they would hare to send out to India
most important dispatches relating to judicial questions, He
hoped lie had shewn sufficient grounds to the House for re-
jecting the motion. He really did not expect that the Hon.
Gentleman, fifteen years after quitting the situation in which
lie acquired his ignorance, would have brought forward such'
a motion as the present. Such as it was, for the reasons he
had given, lie should meet it by a direct negative.—(Hear !)
Mr. TIERNEY said, that lie felt himself called upon, as
he thought every one was who had ever been connected with
the Board of Control, to contribute all -the information in his
power, bearing on the present motion before the House. At
the outset, however, he mast beg to assure the Honourable
Secretary (Mr. Canning), that he was as 'much taken by stirs.
prise by the motion as he could be, having been kept entirely
in the dark about it till within the last few hours. He also
begged to join the Noble Secretary in declaring, that what he
knew of that Board he would state with the strictest atten-
tion to truth, in every respect as though it was on oath.—
Having thus prefaced, it became him to .state that it Was his
full conviction that three Commissioners were not necessary
to the management of the business oft. the Board -of Control,
but that two would be sufficient. Ile declared upon his ho-
nour that this was his opinion.—(Hear, hear !)—gut in say-
, ing this he begged to be understood as not meaning to under_
rate, either in quantity or quality, the business of that Board.
(Hear !)—Both labour and responsibility belonged to the post
of President, and no man was fit for the place who should
shrink from either. He knew of no one dispatch from India,
nor of no one department of Indian government, that was not
sifted to 'the bottom in this country, as well by the India
House as by the Board'of Control; 'and be begged leave to
say, that without the clerks attached to the Office, not one,
two, three, nor four Commissioners, would be adequate to go
through the business.—(Hear !)--,When the Hon. Secretary,
however, talked of the size of the papers he had to examine,
if he did not wish to lead the House into error, he should have
stated that these papers went through a previous examina-
tion at the India House, conducted by most intelligent men.
This very much lightened the labour of examining them by the
Board of Control and the President; with reference to what
had been said of the duties of President, he bad only to say,
that he was sure that every thing that could admit of doubt
was fairly laid under his own observation —(Hear !)—Si, that
every chance of foul play on the part of the clerks, or others,
was removed. But it was too much for the Hon. Secretary
to say that it-required two or three years to understand the
nature of the business, when the President and the whole of
the Commissioners were turned tq the right-about all at the
same time, and fresh ones put ip their place. For his own
part, he was willing to admit that be never did undertake
any office, the duties of which were more arduous than those
of the President of the Board of Controul. He expressed his
gratitude fur the able and willing assistance lie received from
the two Commissioners at that time, but he must at the same
time declare, on his honour, that be did not think three Com-
missioners were necessary. Two, he thought. would answer
quite as well as three, always hearing in mind the great ad.
vantage which that Board derived from the previous sifting
of all the matters that came, before it by the India House.
Now, there could be no question that one could be spared as
far as the India House was concerned; but it appeared to him
that something in the shape of an amendment on the present ,'

motion to consolidate the offices of the Under Secretary of
State ai.thn head of the Colonial' Departnient and the Board-
of Control would be extremely advisable. He thought such
an arrangement would effect a great saving to the nation. Iti
his opinion the affairs of India and the Colonies ought in
propriety to be associated together. The new Colonies
perhapt ought to belong to the department of Lord Ba-
thurst, many of them being so much connected -with foreign
politics as to be more of. the nature of political than colo-
nial possessions. In this case another Under Secretary
might be attached to the Board,and he should have no ob-
jection to the Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr, Wilmot) being
transferred with his department. The savinrwhich such an
arrangement would effect, according to his calculation, would
be equal to 10,0001. In all this, however, he might be wrong;
for, as he had stated, his information was derived from a pe-
riod long past. And it was for this reason that he should vote
for his Hon. Friend's motion; for inquity. He must again say
that three Commissioners were not necessary; even. if they
were all conversant with India business; but, as they were
not, still less could they be necessary. He.begged, however,
in saying this, to guard himself against being interpreted to
undervalue the ecclesiastical attributes of the Learned Gen-
tleman (Dr. Phillitnore) opposite. With regard to the Board
of Cuntroul itself, he would vindicate it so far as to say, that
there was no one office in the whole department of Govern-
ment which demanded more laborious application, more study,
and more responsibility.--(Hear.)—Whether there was more
business at one time than at another he did not know. He.
knew that when he belonged to it he was not one day absent,
and that no man could do more than he did.—(Hear.)—He
did his best, and what he bad to state to
.the House as to what
he had learned there, hearing on i'he present motion, was,
that one of Commissioners ought to he spared, and that a
saving might be effected of the nature he had described.—
(Hear, hear.). .

, .
. -
Mr. CA;sINING said, he must begin by stating that he rose
to take part in this debate from necessity—a necessity similar
to that under which the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Tierney) declared himself as acting at the outset
of his speech. He must also-admit with him, that as far as
he was able.to take a retrospect of the short time that Right
Honourable Gentleman was in office, he knew of no instance
where, ire so short a period, more had been done towards a
faithful and efficient discharge of duty.—(Hear, hear!)—He
was also willing to confess, that in many of the opinions and
feelings of the Right Honourable Gentleman he entirely
agreed ; and as to the points of difference -between them, be
really did believe that the progress of time, the change of
circumstances, and the increase of business, were sufficient
to reconcile them. Before, however, he proceeded to state,
as the Right Honourable Gentleman hail done, snore in-
deed in the shape of testimony than argument, the grounds
of his objection to the motion, he, would call the attention of
the House to the precise nature of it. This Bias a.motion
for a Reform. The attention of the House had been called to
the comparative usefulness of the individual who was the
Secretary, and to that of him who had been President, and
it turned out, from the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, as
well as from common notoriety, that formerly one of those
persons was a most efficient, and the other a most inefficient,
Officer.—(Hear, hear, bear !)—Such being the state of the
case, if the Right Hon. Gentleman, the former President of
the Board of Controul, had brought fore aid a motion to as-
certain the manner in which the business had been carried
on, in order to see what part of the duty had beets satisfac-
torily performed, and where there had been a failure, and
had concluded by moving for a Committee to inquire into the
conduct of an idle Secretary of that Board.—(Hear, hear !)
Had such been the character of the motion, he could have
understood the motives which brought the subject before the
House. But it seemed a little extraordinary, that the only
data they bad to go upon was furnished by the statement,
that the President bring a most effective officer, and that in-
dividual having honourably boasted that he bad received
much assistance from his fellow CommiSsioners, it seemed, he
must repeat, a little extraordinary that that idle Secretary
should be the person who called for such an inquiry.—(Elear,
hear )—This was a reform with a.veugeance.—(Hear' hear.)
—This was a picture, and no unfaithful picture, of those
principles or, =which reform was usually clamoured for. He
believed, if they traced the principles of those who raised that
clamour to their source, it would be found that—hal/ells
ream confitentens—and that nine times out of ten, the evil ex-
isted only where the clamour was raised.—(Hear!)—lt was
beyond his hopes that any Honourable Gentleman could be
so blinded by Isis fancies, as to come forward with such a mo-
tion, under suck cireumstances; crying Me, me adsuen
qui (non) feel"—l am the man who did nothing; and I now
neceo,ntaittilduewdhcohewerrieogd,i)Ligeincta,ilfaoirileydotu.otfooldl
call on you to inquire why those who were associated with
eoiwitaun'er oefxtaltile'pnises:4—ty
they, by their diligence, should thus break in upon the prac-
tice which my conduct went to establish, and disturb by their
activity the stillness of my stagnation--(Hear, bear, bear !)
The Hon. Gentleman stated himself to have been well paid.
He bad received 1,5001. per annum, yet all that lie had to do
was to amuse himself with the newspapers. The President
indeed was engaged in his proctralium, endeavouring to forM
plans for the good government of India; but the Hors. Gen-
tleman told them I washed my hands of every thing of this
sort; I did not occupy myself in any such a way. I had only'
to repose myself in my ()tithe, and lei look froth the window,
' into 'the Park, to amuse myself with what might be passing
there; -and now I come to revenge myself on those whose
industry formed so strong a contrast to my inactivity, by
calling on the House to hit-wire into the manner in which
those ditties were performed whiCh were nut performed
at all by me.— (Loud cries of, Hear, hear, hear !)
Now, if the authority of any one bringing forward a motion
were to pass for any thing in that House, it was a little too
much that they should be called upon to go into an inquiry
when no grounds were laid for it but the idleness of the party
calling for it—l-when the metioo which he made went to in-
culpate no one but himself.—;'Hear, hear, hear!)—He did
not wish to overstate the importance of that office which the
H„n. Gentleman had attempted to run shown. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman who, during the short period of his Presi
(lefty, had applied himself so closely and diligently to the
duties of this office, had stated them to be ditties of some im-
portance. He, however, hoped that that Right lion. Gen-
tleman would not be offended with him when he stated that
the business, in point of extent, delicacy, and difficulty, com-
pared with what it was at that period, partly front circum-
stances connected with the removal of the Company's
Charter, had much increased, The circumstances to
which he- had alluded would of themselves, in a great
degree, account for the onus now thrown upon the Board
of Controul being much heavier 'than formerly. He
could not speak from his own knowledge, but front the infor-
mation which lie had obtained •frogs others, he could state
that if they compared the business of the India Company and
of the India Boat d with what it had been in 1793, it would be
found to have increased a hundred fold. This he stated with-
out fear of contradiction; and be could further 'state that,
within the last five or six years, there bad been an increase of
about 20 per cent. The- Hon. Gentleman who brought for-
ward this motion had not looked further hack than 1784, to
the formation of a Council by Mr. Pitt to superintend the
Government of India. Had he gone still farther back to the
debates on Mr. Feces India Bill, it would lie found that no
question was more frequently argued than the question whe-
ther the affairs of India ought to be placed under the care of
a Secretary of State, or under that of a Board. Mr. Dundas
had differed in sonic particulars from those with whom he
usually acted, hut he substantially agreed with the other
leading men of that day, that a Board would be preferable,
not fur the Government- of India—that was a point upon
which a difference of opinion existed—hot for the contsoul of
those in whom the Government should be vested. tie (Mr.
C.) was sure that a Secretary of State was not so fit to super-
intend the Government of India as a Board of Control. The
Secretary of State was a responsible. officer,- performing that
which the King might he pleased to command. The Presi-
dent of the Board of Control was the single officer who never
received any suggestion from the -Throne. The duty of a
Board of Control, unlike that of a Secretary of State, was not
active. With the very trifling exception which he would
presently notice, it to iginated nothing. Its dory was to exa-
mine dispatches prepared by the Court of Directors to go out
to India. These were sent to the Board of Control for their
revision, correction, or approhation. No dispatch..could- be
Sent from the Company to India without the signature of
three Conimissioners being attached to it in approved. . Out
of the vast number of dispatches forwarded by a Company
whose concerns were so• extensive, many were undoubtedly
forwarded as they were originally written, but some were sent
back to the Court of Directors, and, where the objection was
of importance, accompanied by letters stating the reasons for
the alterations which they suggested. An individual who
was idle might pass many letters which contained objection-
able passages, but no man who had any regard for his repu-
tation would suggest alterations which be was -not prepared
to defend. The form which he had described was that for-
merly presci:'ied by law. But custom had introduced an-
other course, which, though it seemed to give additional
trouble its the first instance, was calculated ultimately to
save it. Previous to an important dispatch being made
up at the India House, its substance was usually, by
courtesy, communicated to the President of the Board
of Controul, so that if there- was any fundamental oh-
jection to the principle on -which it was to lie ferined,
this could at once be stated, and the Court of Directors might
be advised that it would be better not to draw up their dip..
patch its such a shape. On this intimation being given, the
plan of it was commonly altered. When the Directors were
strong in their sipmion•of the propriety of the-course they
had intended to pursue. the dispatch was draVen up accord-
ingly, and sent to the Beard of -Control to go through the

r' usual forms. It was then perhaps sent back with shah altera- and the assistance it received from the Government and .thei
e Lions as were considered necessary. This would sometimes Privy Council. In the- early part of his Presidency when
produce a remonstrance, to which a reply became necessary, war was raging in India, he dicinot scruple to apply to Lent
and that frequently led to verbal communications. This was Sidmouth for aid, and from that Noble Viscount -he had reS
a description of, business which could not be so conveniently ceived the most important assistance. Mr. Sullivan, a Cont.
performed by a Secretary of State as by a Board of Control. missioner who had resigned, remained at the Board at his
That it might be seen what was the weight of business (Mr. C.'s) desire, and this Gentleman's services were found
• t brown on the Board, he had caused an account to be taken most useful. It was perhaps hardly regular to allude to it, but
Of the number of dispatches which had passed through on a former night, in the debate on the motion respecting the
• it airing the time of his presidency. In four years Lords of the Admiralty, mention had been made of a certain
and a half, or nearly five years, he found that the number unpaid Commissioner having gone to the Board of Controul;:
of dispatches which had come before it amounted to 1800. where he was told that there was no Board at which he could
Of these, foam, of course were passed with no alteration, attend, but there was a room with a table covered with green-
or with alteration so slight teat they were hardly worth en- cloth, in which he could read the newspapers. He would say
teritog into a controversy about. But about oue.tenth that the attendance of the unpaid Commissioner at the Board
of them had been thought to require such alterations as had would only have been likely to impede the business. He might
led him to a detailed exposition of reasoning, and to a discu-s- be admitted to the newspapers or to the library, he did
siou with the Directors, not certainly of a hostile character, not mean to the -printed books which might be seen elsewhere,
but very long and complicated. This frequently made it ne- but to the outlives of the office, and when he had gOne over
these, he might not object to his taking a part in the current-.
cesary to have the answers received to other dispatches, their
inclosures and various documents, which might throw light business of the establishment.. But the attendance .of an -un—.
upon the subject. The papers ref-cried to on the table gave paid Commissioner was not-wanted, nor did he think that int-.
oo idea of the magnitude of the business. When be stated portant business could long be carried on in any country -by
that one Military Dispatch contained 199 papers, and Unpaid servants of -the public. These Commissioners were
13,507 paves—that a Political Dispatch had to-might 1,937 treated with ressicet--they were allowed the privileges which:.
pages, :id another on the Revenues and Judicial pro
he had mentioned ; and after this, for there to complain that
-
ceedings of the most complicated nature contained 2538, more atttention was not shown towards them, and that they
some notion might be formed of the business of the were not asked. to assist with their Council was about as
Board, when such a volunrin'ous mass was to be gone reasonable as it was in the. Lady in Blue Beard, w:!0 being..
through with, before a dispatch could be sent. This was allowed to amuse herself with the curiosities in ninety-nine
the sinecure, tbis,was the office, the duties of. which might apartments,; was miserable because she was not permitted to
so conreinuntly lie added to those Of the Secretary ut State tater the'hundredthe He proceeded to show if they had been
actually admitted, how drie uninteresting, anduseless the labours :
olifetltiheellhosavredntlnoinisttohasivseesvaphpoewartehdetohuthsienuesnspahiaddCionmameasisedsiosnienrese.
for the Heinle Department, or connected with the affiirs
of the other Colonies. He did not believe that the physical
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite held the situation of Pre-
strength of any Secretary would suffice to get through busi-
ness like that of which he spoke; and to prove his idea cur-
sident of the Beard of Control. Light as the Ecclesiastical'•
rect, be would state the means by which it was disposed of at
department had been made of in that Houses the business cone
Ininfac,
ttienpddawitali.itahmiletvhwht
When
was not
adniott - s a
nwu unimportant..
sirtsipooa
indredtaunittaw.
t•
t. I.nrtoelivl
ialots b e remembered
Present. In the first place, much credit was due to the set..
rants of the East India Company. '1 he papers received from
Legislativees ta b
l measures..
s he
al ns
ue nr
et sa
• t
them were drawn up with a degree of accuracy and talent
that would do credit to any Cioverninciet. This greatly fir-
fobioriginatedowjarodnror licensingh talasr nased dsit:wwai
Gentleman
Boardolde:httandiedffimcaini
lattendedtythat.Marriages. o
Tfhi
hteCetlolhNnaArdtoerewuotbugrbllte
basin
enhee e
sftwe
Hr
risonrhoet remindldauoddsnteoe,grownwwv
iasiti
hict
holt .1: ' luictit
cilitated the business. But the dispie4.hes, numerous as
they were, it sas necessary to pass witl, their voluminous
appendages before the. President of the Ivan, of Controul,
or one of the Commissioners. Now, taking the dispatches
to average 356 in the year, including some of those mon-
sters which he had mentioned, as it was necessary not of the conditions on which the last charter had been geanted.—
that the President of the Board of Controul should read These had authorized individuals to go to India; but it was am-
all of them, but that he should look to all those re- quired that they should apply for a license to the Court of Di
.specti lig which any doubt had been started,—was it too rectors, and where this was refused an-appeal might be made to
much that be should bare two Gentlemen to assist him, the Board of Control. And here he felt himself bound in justice
On whose understanding he could rely; and who would to speak of the conduct of the Court of Directors. When the'
share in some degree, though not in a political sense, the re- provision which he had alluded to was made, it was opposed owe
spensibility of the office. It was necessary that he should
the ground that the Directors would be likely to use it too tyran-
have such assistance to receive the.dispatches from the clerks, nically. The applications which had been made for licenceS to
and -such assistance lie had from his Hon. Friends near (situ, go to India since the renewal of the charter were between 4 and s
thsoior.d. OAf tshaesteestthoef
thCoeugrtenoefraiDpirreocptotirestyhaodf
trheesefuseddecaibsotouhts,ez
nourable (lentleman had found a Noble Friend of his when '
who had proved as efficient to aid him as the Right Ho-
he filled the same situation. While he (Mr. Canning) was
had to state that but a third of that third which had been re-
in office, lie had never passed a dispatch, on which he had
yheethnecoßnoafirmrd
edof.mthGCpeeolanto:thttrhyleaceoeinchsuwheclanae,dansudeztez-etdh:radsidedof
fused permission to go to India, had succeeded •in getting the •
their refusalsd e
e reversed es
ionsver s
lint fine, availed himself of the weight of their under-
standings• He did not say that he had never signed a dis-
ieehtt
House ceeodini alibi
Iseeoa
Board
dnf
been
the
ey e
ont hftecutßo
satisfiedni
ellia db
ofthat
aihnra fitteryst hRo etficiwgsjhbit letgtHet.
.....13 sub.nai t.
..
patch in confidence without reading it, but he had never
signed one with which they were not acquainted, and ready
damthai
gtmilinclitufillarooCimhnoan.
to advise hint on it if necessary. He contended that the
present machinery was, fit for the discharge of the duties atc
°de r
confuted to the Board, and lie was satisfied that it was not Gentleman, that more strength, talent, and disposable time
con extensive. He should he ungrateful not to acknowledge were required in regulating the affairs of the Company then
the assistance he bad received from his Noble Friend near one man could be expected to supply-..if they bore in mind '
him (Lord Binning) who had applied his mind to that most that the Right Hon. Gentleman had received valuable assist-
difficult study, the revenues of India. This he had done with
.once from those who had been associated, still remembering
a degree of ardour kindled perhaps by the meritorious example that such assistance had been still more necessary to him
of Mr. Cummings, which had been crowned with success, and (Mr. Canning) from the great increase in the business—if
had rendered services the most important. He also spoke in this impression had been made on them, there were but two
the highest terms of the exertions of the Hon. Member fur ,
brounds remaining on which a motion could -be supported
Preston, who, if his wish could have been gratified, would which had for its object the disorganizing of the Board, the
not now have been there, but would have been filling one of weakening of the establishment, and the diminution of the •
the highest judicial offices in India. With respect to his Hon. numbers emi7.oyed. The one was, that ineimes like these, all
Friend near him, if any blame attached to the increase of e
tuat'could be saved ought to be saved, and put into the pockets
his salary, he begged to take it to himself, and desired to of the country. In this case, however, any saving that might -
answer for it at the Bar of that House or before a Commit-
be made wouldthe East I cf Co 'Th
go to n la . mpany. e proor of
tee, if it were thought right to ,appoint one on the pre- this was to .be found in what had taken place with respect to
sent elution: When be (Mr. Canning) first went to the Board
the situation of President to the Board. That had been vacant
of Control, a circumstance not of his seeking, but the result
for a year, but the expence ths saved had, with the knowledge
of accident, he found him in the situation, which he might
of Parliament, been saved loathe East India Company. The
truly say he filled so much to his own honour. He had not
next ground was that it might be argued that savings, though •
the honour to know that-reseeeteble individual at that time,
not of importance in their amount were desirable, that while
but as the reputed author of a pamphlet, in which be (74r.C.)
some were suffering under great privations, others ought
had been attacked, to which he had thought it right to offer a
not to enjoy an invidious affluence. Be, however, had a dread
reply ins that House. It would therefore easily be conceived,
of countenancing such a principle. Though he admittted there
that they did not approach each other with any feelings of ex-
was a wide difference between the tenure of office and the tenure'
traordinary kindness; but the patient industry, unostentatious
of
property generally ; yet it was by such areuments that all
activity, and other qualifications of, the Hon.Gentletuaii,niade
property had been overturned. The outcry—" Here is one
him -feel it to be his duty to revise his salary from a state
rolling in affluence while another endures the greatest want,"
of depression to a level with offices, to which it was not infe-
tl twhich in distant
is was la
rior in importance. He had found the FlemaeGentleman i
mutated the crowd to commit all sorts of excesses. The idea
the receipt of 18001, per annum. In augmentiteg his income,
that the •should poor man
he (Mr. Canning) had been guilty of no extravagance, for he.
bad ,founded this step on a measure of-economy. The Chief " See no contiguous palace rear its head,
• Cleric's situation fell vacant, and Ire bad thought that offi To shame the meanness of his humble shed,"
ce . . •
had led the multitude to overturn ancient houses and sirited
might be dispensed with, and accordingly it was not filled up.
them on to the confiscation of property. If Parliament should
Two other offices, which Were nearly sinecures, he took urea- encourage them to diffuse more generally that misery
sures for putting an end to, at the expiration of the interest in let
1• I couldhnot be wiiciredressed particular cases; those
not vested, but then existing, in them. He had thence gain which
acted such a part look well to the consequences which
ed the means, as he thought, of strengthening the office, and
compensatingthe services of the Hon. Gentleman.--(Hear.) lfollow; must coupled until these another romantic project, the •
—.
nPrinciple of taxing particular classes exclusively, might be p
The representations made on this subject would seem to impute'
his had been done twice in our history
that the successive augmentations of the Hon. Gentleman's brought forward. - T
salary had been obtained by successive acts of humiliation and —once in the case of the Jews, and once, lie was sorry to.
No such thing. What had been done for him
supplication.
enlightened times—since the RevolutiOn—ih - say, in more
~.._
that of the Papists. 'Phis he disapproved. He was against
had been done at once. Part only had yet been done of that
ng the ho ers o o cesubject to any particular tax which Id f fli su jb.
which the regulatioh had contemplated, but what remained to making
be done would, if his wishes could have any influence, be ac_
was not levied on the rest of the community.—He then went on
complished by his successor in office. He would read the
to show that the present Board of Control was better for the
discharge of the duties assigned than a President and order which had been made. The order set forth that "the
President could be like those of the Board of Trade, arid
Vice-
Board, considering the great weight of business which fell on
repeated his conviction that it was more suitable to •ti • - exis nor
the Chief Secretary to the Commissioners, and the great length
cumstances than the superintendance of a Secretary of State.
of service of the individual who held that situation, thought it • .
whole it his -He concluded by declaring that upon the
sin-
found at their disposal the salary of the Chief Secretary by cure t conviction that this establishment was not one which Par-
-20e1., making his 'total income 2,0001." It further declared I on any sound principle, could be called upon to re.
lamen , .
that " the salary of the Chief Secretary for the time to come form—great security was enven, ath ttliose who formed it would •
should commence at 1,8001. be augmented after five years always. 3,,. ,
do their duty, from the great talents engaged in the
service to '2,0001., at the expiration .of seven years to 2,2001., service of the East India Company ; for, in the face of such a
and at the end of ten years receive an addition of 3001. more. body of men, he knew of no earthly inducement that could ever
making altogether an income of 2,5001." This was raising themake presidentor Commissioner as idle as the Secretary
. any
office to the level of one of the Under Secretaries of State, who had brought forward the present motion.—(Loud and long
with which, without any disparagement, its business might becontinued cheering.)
~,,,
compared. It had been stated by the Hon. Gentleman, that i Mr. BUX'T'ON opposed the motion, as it came within his
the Chief Secretary to the Commissioners was entitled to the knowledge that the B I hoard had rendered services of' great im.
advantages of superannuation.. No such thing. This was Ptanceinstance, dispatch relative to the burning of
In
widows
a
the single office in the State for which no superannuation al- the Hindoo had been mac. •le to take a shape which, but
lowance was provided. He would tell how this happened. In .•would I' for the interference,of the Board, it never lave received,
1817, a Bill was before the House relative to the provision to and which, sent out as originally written, would have been a dise
be made for the remuneration of certain Officers. In that Bill grace to the country.
the President of the Board of Control and the Chief Secre- Mr. C. W. WYNN thought the present motion had been
tary were not included, as they were to be paid from a dif. brought forward merely as a peg to hang those remarks which
ferent. quarter. Those who considered the temper of the pre- • had been made on him and those with whom he was connected.
sent times, and the temper of those to which he had refer- The entrance of himself and friends to office had been said to
red, would not feel much surprise that he should have felt have been brought about by the purchase of a family interest.
reluctant to bring in a Bill to provide a retreat for the Pre- He would appeal to those who had witnessed his conduct in that
sident of the Board of Control, with whose fate the Chief House, if such remarks were just, and on this subject he would
Secretary was most unjustly involved. He had not thought not say another word. He briefly defended his conduct in voting
that the charge for such a retreat ought to be thrown on the for the Salt Duty. For the allusions made to his ancestors, he
East India Company, and for these reasons his Honourable would say, if a Welchman might speak of his pedigree, that he
Friend had remained the only man of his class who was not so had the honour to be the descendant of individuals who had inde.
provided • for. Under these circumstances the increase of pendently taken apart on both sides of that House.—(A laugh.)--
salary which he had received war not only what he had de. He did not know how he could vote on any questions if he
served, but what he had a right to expect from his (Mr. Can- were to attempt to regulate his opinions by theirs. They voted
ning's) hands. His Honourable Friend had been nearly ten on different sides, as he believed conscientiously, and he thought,
years in office—he was now to be amerced of ten per cent. in he should best imitate them by exercising his own honest judge
his income by the - arrangenient about to take effect with re- meat in every case, without reference to the particular line of
spect to all salaries ; and he was, he believed, in hourly expeca conduct pursued by any
.other individual. He had not taken
tation of the birth of a tenth child.—(A laugh.)—lf then any office till he, found the opinions of those with whoM he was to
man thought it was other than fair that, under such eircum- act in perfect accordance with his own on all the great interests
stances, his Honourable Friend should receive the reward of the country.
which had been given to him, he did not envy that man his Lord BINNING said, an - Hon. Gentleman had said he
feelings, and would, willingly give him all the credit he could voted against the motion, as the Board of Control by its inter- ..
gain for economy,- rather than share the sentiments of his heart, ference had prevented a dispatch from going out to India which-, -
A cry was raised against the - numbers of the Board. He would have been a disgrace to the country. He remembered a:
thought there would be something-unseemly is an arrangement dispatch on that subject whichhad been fully dealt with by the .:.
which should subject the decisions of a body like the East India Board, but in justice to the East India Company he must Sey,e.
Company to be altered and nullified by the desh of a single he had no recollection of any dispatch nrhich merited so se-
pen. That a deliberative body should act on such occasions vete a censure as that which had been pronoUnced by the lion. .
was due from courtesy to them, and essential to the prosperity Gentleman. .
of the important interests confided 'to their care. Mr. Fox, Mr. BATHURST spoke to the same effect.
who was no mean judge of what was necessary for the Govern- Dr. PHILLI.MORE vindicated his conduct with respect to
ment of India, was not sparing of numbers. He had been in the Salt Duty. His speeches on a former occasion had been
favour of seven Principal and nine Assistant Commissioners.— malevolently garbled out of doors, and he had been misrepre-
(Hear.)—O, but then it was said his seven Assistant Commis- sented. To these attacks he had deigned to make no reply,
stoners were not paid,—" Not paid ! (exclaimed Mr. Canning,) but when the subject was brought forward in that House it
why they held their offices for four years in-en-loveable by the .became necessary to offer sonm explanation, and he thought it
Crown, and they enjoyed that of which I have not a_ jot—all the .right to Kay he had taken the office he held with a view of
patronage. After. this I should like to hear it again stated that doing his duty, to the best of his limited ability.
that they were not paid for their services, who enjoyed all the Mr. CREEVEY replied. They had a grand theatrical dis.
patronage connected with the disbursement of sixteen millions play from a performer who it was rumoured then made his last
of money for the Government of Inclia."—( Hear, hear, -. hear !)-- appearance on that stage for some time. They had been amused
The council of Mr.'Pitt succeeded. That lasted for eight years three or four times by remarks on his- (Nile Creevey's) idleness.
and the Board of 'Control was established by Act of Parliament And who was the performer who thus entertainedthem?—Why
(this they had not learnt from the speech of the Hon. Gent.) as it it was the idle Ambassador to Lisbon. Did the Right lion.
'now existed. It was to consist of a President, who was the only Gentleman never hear of an idle ambassador ?--(Hear IS--Why -- --.
'respolisible officer, and two salaried Commissioners, whose ser- not bring evidence to prove he (Mr. Creevey) was an idle Secree
vices- he might command and profit by if it were not his own tary. The Right Hon. Gentleman had no proof in Support of
fault; for if they were to refuse to render such assistance as it that statement; but it was well known who was the idle Am-
might be in their power to 'afford when called upon, he would bassadm. The Right Hon. Gentleman was sent out to Lisbon,
dismiss them with as little ceremony as he would an idle loiter- where there was no Court, by the Noble Lord. It was re-
ing newspaper reading Secretary.—aleao—He proceeded to remarkable that each a man, a tip-top wag, in the country should
describe the Constitution of the Board, and explained the im- come down-to the House to jest about an idle Secretary. -He .
portance of the several regulations by which it was governed, was described to be a winter-looking Secretary, but, the joke

We have received the French Papers of Tues-
day, from which it appears that the disturbances
.at Paris have nearly ceased, and that the .dis-
tricts in which the insurrection of Gen. BERTON
tbroke out are restored to tranquillity. The
eneraf is .not yet arrested, and is said to be