The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF CO2iIIIIONS, JULY 13.
(Continued from our First Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool
appeared to have a strange idea about the voluntary principle. The
word .` toleration" had been used in this debate, but he had hoped that
he shou'd not have heard that word made use of in the House.—
(Hear, hear.) He denied the right of the House to tell ani man not to
believe that which his conscience told him to be true. The Hon.
Member for Newark had said this was a new principle--
Mr. GLADSTONE--In England.
Mr. O'CONNELL—It was an old principle in Ireland—there-
fore he would say, " Justice to England."—(Hear, and laughter.)
The question was not whether it was a new principle, but whether it
was a good principle. The good principle was to forward the morality of
every man by instructing him according to his religious persuasion, and
he hoped the House would, show itself determined to give the relief
sought.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. HUME would take leave to ask whether there could be a better
time for the reformation of criminals than when they were undra soli.
tary confinement; and looking at the question In a pecuriiary point
of view, he would ask could a small sum of money be expeaded in a
better way than affording religious inAruction to our fellow creatures p—
(Hear, hear.)

Lord STANLEY said that if by giving a vote in favour of the motion
of the Hon. Gentleman opposite he thought he was casting a stigma on
the Established Church, he should have great hesitation in doing so.
Those who were locked up in gaols were paced in a peculiar position--
they were placed in aposition by which they were separate,' from the super-
intendence and control of those to whom they would resort for religions
instruction without imposing any burthen on the State By adopting
the principle of the Hon. Gentleman, they were not introducing ,„dy
principle that had not already been sanctioned by the Legi,:ature,
because it had already been adopted in Ireland.—(Hear, hear. For his
own part he should feel bound to rote in favour of the.iar!,,lciple of the
amendment proposed by the I-lon. Member. He w;,s not willing to
lose the opportunity (if opportunity there might- 'oe) of reclaiming so
large a portion of the vicious and dissolute.—(Eiear, hear.) • He had made
these few observations because he felt himself called upon to state the
grcund on which he supported the principle in opposition to many of
those with whom on Church questions he was generally disposed to
act.—(Cheers )
Mr. ESTCOURT felt bound to object to the proposition, because the
prisoners were not now without spiritual itutruction.
Mr. SHEIL wished to call the attention of the House to the Act of
Parliament, the 7th Geo. IV., chap. 74,.which was introduced by Lord
Liverpool, while the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was at the head
of the Home Department, and the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge
(Mr. Goulburn) was Secretary for Ireland. That Act allowed the in-
troduction of Chaplains into gaols, not only belonging to the Established
Church, but also to the Presbyterian and the Catholic persuasions. Surely,
if the principle IN ere good in Ireland, it would work well in England.
Sir R. PEEL said it was very unfortunate that it was not better
known that the question was to come on that day, and he would suggest
that it would be better that the Hon. Member should then withdraw his
motion, amend it, and bring it under the consideration of the House
upon a full notice, upon the third reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that there were not ten gaols in Epgland in which
the Bill would come into operation, and if the principLe were good for
fifty, why not for five ? It was agrave question, and required very
great consideration. The question of tt leration ought not to be intro.
duceti on such an occasion. He certainly thought it would be a viola-
tion of the principles of toleration, if a Catholic prisoner were obliged
to attend upon the ministrations of a worship, in the creed of which he
did not believe. A little time for consideration, he thought, would be
likely to lead to a good result.

Mr.THORNELY wished to mention one fact. It was stated in the Re.
.port of the Inspectors that in the month of August 1837, there were
confined in the Borough gaol of Liverpool, 519 prisoners. Of that
number, 214 belonged to the Established Church; there were 174 Ro.
man Catholics; Methodists, 8; Baptists 1 ; Unitarians, 2 ; Presbyte-
rians, 17; Independents, I.—(A laugh.) Now, it was evident that
when there were so many Roman Catholics, some religious instruction
should be provided, and whenever the Honourable Member for Liverpool
brought forward his amendment, he (Mr. Thornely) would give it his
decided support. As regarded the other denomination of Dissenters,
there was not so much objection on their part to joining in the public
worship of the Church of England, but he trusted the peculiar position
in which the Roman Catholics were paced, would induce both sides of
the House to give the motion their support when it was next brought
forward.
Lord SANDON had no objection to accede to the proposition, if it
could be done consistently with safety to -the interests of the Esta.
blished Church.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought it right to state that the ease that had
arisen in Ireland, of a different chaplain being appointed from t':e
person approved by the dioce*an, could not occur in England.
In that country the Roman Catholic clergyman was merely a mis-
sionary, and had no permanent jurisdiction in his parish. The only
instance that had occurred in Ireland was where the Grand Jury of the
county of Cork had appointed to the situation of Chaplain a person who
had no spiritual jurisdiction in the district.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it would be convenient to the Cam.
mittee if the Hen. Member for Knaresboro' would state whether be
would accede to the proposition for postponing his amendment.
Mr. HAWES hoped the Hon. Member would postpone it, sod that in
the meantime he would attend to the wording of his amendment, so as
to obviate any objections that might arise. He would merely in addi.
tints state, that in the Coldbalh.fields prison there were 150 Roman
Catholics confined.

Lard JOHN RUSSELL isad entertained great doubts about the pro.
priety of introducing such a clause in the Bill. His objection
erase fro.n the difficulty of so
.guarding it as that the Dissenters,
who were in smaller number, might not dais. religious instruc-
tion on the same principle upon which it had been acceded to the
Roman Catholics, and that it would be difficult so to arrange it as to
prevent an interference with the proper superintendence and discipline
of the prison.

•
Mr. LANGDALE would acquiesce in the suggestion of the Right
Hon. Baronet, and postpone the ainendinent.—(Hear.) He hoped, when
he again brought it forward, it would receive the favourable considera-
tion of Hon. Members opposite.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses up to 12 were agreed to.
On clause 13 being proposed,
Lord G. SOMERSET proposed to insert the Words "after con-
viction."

Mr. CLAY thought the clause ought to be more carefully considered.
Lord J. RUSSELL defended the cause, thinking it would be a
benefit to separate perions who might be innocent from the most de-
praved characters.

. Sir J. GRA H.llll concurred in opinion with the Noble Lord.
Sir E. WILM ur thought the tlitEcu!ty might be got over-by insert.
ing a proviso to the effect that no separattun should take place before
trial without an order of the visiting Magistrates.
After a few remarks from Mr. num; Mr. Gibson, and Lord G.
Somerset,

The clause was postponed.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, :std obtained leave to sit
again to-mcrrow.

The House resumed,

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed to proceed with the Irish
Tithe Bill on Monday, and to proceed with the Prisons' Bill the first
thing to-morrow.
The ATTORNEY.GENERAL trusted the House would tll.)c, him to bring on the Imprisonment for Debt Bill to morrow. He had
received letters from every gaol in the kingdom urging him to pretax
it forward.

MORNING SITTINGS.
After a abort conversation between Mr. HUME and Lord JOHN'
RUSSELL, Monday next was fired for Mr. Hume bringing on his
motion, that Orders of the Day should take precedence of Notices of
Motion, on Mondays and Thursdays instead of morning sittings.
A message from the Lords announced that thcir Lordships had agreed
to a conference upon the Loch Foyle Drainage Bill, which was to be hvld
forthwith in the Committee Room No. 5.

Sir H. Ferguson and others were o.pp.,inted to manage the Canff:revee
on the p.:rt of the House of Commons.

The Mara3ers having returned, reported that they had met the
Managers on the pact of their Lordships, and had left the
raesons for dinigreeing with their Lordships' amendments with them.
The County 'rruasurers (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
S-:r J. Y. BULLER brought up the report of the Committee on the
Liverpool Clergy Agres:nent 8.11. The Hon. Baronet then brought in
the Bill, which wris ield a first time,
Lord INGESTRE moved f,r a return of the expenses of building
her Nlajesty's ship Vernon. —Agree.; to.
Mr. A GLIONBY brOught up the report of the Committee on ti e
Recovery of Tenements Rill.

Mr. It. Sri to lir brought up the report of the Inspectors vi
Prisons —Laid on the tahle.

Sir F. TRENCH gave notice that on MondaT he should move for a
aetuan of the reviards offered by the Irish Government for the discovery
of offenders, and not u. i.i by them.
The House then, at Twenty Minutes to Five o'Clook, adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 13.
The House met at Four o'Clock, when Lord Sudeley was Introduced
h Y Lords Dinorhen and Say and Sele, when he took the oaths and his
feit on his elevation to the Peerage.
The House resumed at five o'clock, when the Dean Forest and the
Dean Forest Mines Bill severally went through Committee, and wcr.:: ordered to be read a third time.
The Bills c:i the table were advanced a stage.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presentel several petitions in
favour of the Pluralities Abolition Bill.
The House then adjourned till Monday.

Last Tuesda7;leg,
of tl-e
Rev. Mr. Maule, was inspecting the new shops in Bench-street, some
miscreant, unobserved, threw a quantity of oil of vitriol over her dress.
A valuable shawl, on being taken oil on reathing hi me, and otter articcs
of her dress, we understand fell to piece.. The perpetrator of this di a-
Wheal act has hitherto eluded detection,-7-boecr Chronich .