The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-23 00:00:00

be about 385,865/., principally on sugar, and
yet, notwithstanding that reduction, he thought the
income for the present year would not fall short of
46,000,000/ —( Hear, hear.) He would say further,
that it was his belief that the stare of the country
was such that he felt warranted in making that antici-
pation. In ordinary circumstances he should have felt
it to be his duty to go into the state of the country,
but as the Honourable Gentleman the Member for
Buckingham had given notice of his intention to bring
the subject forward he would not go into it now, because
if he did it would spoil the discussion that would
take place on the Hon. Member's motion. He thought
it better that should be taken as a whole.—(Hear, hear.)
He would only say there was a decided improvement in
the manufacturing districts, and the amount of
bullion in the Bank of England had considerably in-
creased, and money was easy.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded—l now come to the
expenditure, and I must express my expectation that in
future years we shall be able still further to reduce our
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) I will not go back to the
expenditure of 1835, because so many changes have taken
place in the circumstances of the country since that
time. Many charges have been thrown upon the public
revenue which were not heretofore borne by it; and I
must again, as I have done on former occasions, express
my regret that so strong a disposition exists, even among
the most ec momical Members of the House perpetually
to increase the charges made upon the public revenue of
the country. I think that course is a great public evil
and misforeuns. It is not altogether a very agreeable
thing for a Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is gene-
rally charged in this House with being a most wasteful
administrator of the public money, to be told the mo
ment he gets out of these walls that he is refusing
money for the most necessary and advantageous expen
diture; and I hope the majority of this House will
assist me in resisting the imposition of any further
charges upon the public revenue. I will go back with
regard to the expenditure only so far as 1845. In that
year, when the Right Hon. Baronet opposite introduced
the income-tax, he stated most fully and fairly to the
House—and the House accepted the proposals—that
the income-tax would be renewed, accompanied by re-
duced taxation, but accompanied by some increased ex-
penditure. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that with
due consideration for the real comfort and the necessary
relief of the British army, with due regard to the
protection of British trade abroad, and in order that the
national defences of the country might be placed in a
proper state of efficiency, it was necessary to increase
the public expenditure; and the House approved and
agreed to that proposition. Now, we have been told that
a House of Commons more popularly constituted would
not have incurred this additional expense. I cannot say
that such is my opinion—(Hear, hear)—for I believe no
proposal was ever submitted to this House which at the
time was more universally popular than that to which I
have referred. I remember perfectly well that, not being
en alarmist myself—having disregarded the warnings of
an Honourable Gentleman opposite as to the descent of
the Russians, and not being afraid of an invasion of the
French—l was not anxious that a very large expenditure
should be incurred for the purposes I have mentioned,
but I always found myself in a very small minority, and
even gentlemen who have taken a most active part in
the Financial Reform Association were at that time
strong supporters of an increased expenditure for the
national deferces.—(Hear, hear.) I find that so lately
as December, 1847, the Honourable Member for Middle.
sex (Mr. Osborne) had a motion on the paper to call
the attention of the House to the state of the national
defences in Great Britain and Ireland. Now, I appre-
hend that gentlemen do not call the attention of the
House to matters which they conceive are sufficiently
and adequately provided for. The Honourable Gentle-
man withdrew his motion at the request of my Noble
Friend, but the only inference I can draw from his notice
is that, in his opinion, the national defences were insuffi-
cient. I must say that I think, when these works had
been commenced, it would have been most absurd anti
injudicious to put a sudden stop 'o them; and I find that ii
the present session, when the Hon. Member for South
wark (Sir W. Molesworth) proposed to abandon the works
at Keyham, he. was supported by only 27 gentlemen, while
a large majority of the House decided that it was most
expedient to proceed with those works, rather than to
throw away the 200,000/. or 300,0001. which bad already
been expended upon thein.—(dear.) With regard to
the army, I think we are justified by the circumstances
of the country in refusing to make any reduction lass
year. It is true that some Hon. Gentlemen are now dis-
posed to underrate the danger which then existed. It
is said that the outbreak in Ireland was only a mock in-
surrection. Ido not think that was the general opinion
at the time.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt, nothing is se
difficult to prove as the necessity for taking measures of
prevention which succeed.—(Hear, hear.) There were
last year two serious insurrections in Paris, which were
only put down at the expense of great bloodshed ant
slaughter, in consequence of the want in the first in-
stance of an adequate number of troops. On a recent
occasion the presence of an adequate military force pre-
vented an insurrection in that city; but were the Go-
vernment to be condemned because by such precautions
they put down an insurrection without bloodshed, in-
stead of risking a repetition of the scenes which took
place in 1848? As soon, however, as we found that we
could reduce our military force, that reduction was
made; and in the course of this year a reduction
of 3,000 men in the navy, and of 10,000 men in the
army, has taken place, we having gone as far as
in the circumstances of this country and o.
Europe, we thought we were justified in going. The
only arm which has been increased is the artillery, and
must say I think, from our recent Indian experience,
that we should greatly neglect our duty if we did no-
maintain that force in a state oft giciency.—(llear, hear.,
I informed the House at the end of the last session that
in the estimates for that year we had made reduction.
to the amount of 828,700/. I stated early in the present
session that upon the estimates as they then stood there
was a reduction of 1,447,0001 Since that time further
estimates have been laid upon the table, and in the whole
of them, or nearly so, there is a reduction. Now, I wish
to show the House that the Government, or the Trea
sury, whose special duty it is, exercise a constant and
all-pervading control over the expenditure of the
country, and that that supervision takes place not merely
with regard to the larger, but also to the smaller item,
of expenditure. There are, in the estimates for civil sir
vices, 103 votes, of which 45 are less than the correspond-
ing votes of last year, 24 are larger, 32 are the same,
2 are new votes, 10 are given up, and one is transferred
to another department. There is a decrease in every
class but two—classes 3 and 6; and the increase in these
votes is quite beyond our control. The increase in one
of those votes arises from an increase of the expenses
attending the administration of justice—from an in-
crease in the number of prosecutions, and in the
charge for the transportation of convicts. In the
other vote the increase is owing to the superannua-
tons, which have been more numerous in consequence
of the reductions made in many of the public depart.
ments. Upon the whole, however, there is a diminution
of expenditure. The two new votes are votes of abso-
lute necessity—the one for repairing the Caledonian
Canal, and the other for repairing Le tester Harbour in
the north of Scotland, which is a great resort of the
fishermen on that coast. I will now state the whop
amount of reduction in the estimates for this year. The
reduction in the navy estimates is 718,168/.; in the arm)
estimates, 433,9141.; in the ordnance estimates, 337,8731.,
and in the miscellaneous estimates, 21,5001, being a de
crease altogether of 1,511,4551. in the course of till,
year; and, if that amount be added to the reduction of
828,700/. effected in the preceding year, it will be seer,
that the total reduction in the estimates for the last twe
years is 2,340,1554 I hope that even my Hon. Friend
behind me (Mr. Hume) will take this as a proof that we
have not been unmindful of reducing the expenditure to
as great an extent as we thought possible.—[Mr. Hume
was understood to say that his objection was to the iu-
crease.] Well, my Hon. Friend will at least give us
credit for the reduction.—(A. laugb.) But I wish to show
by an instance, that even in those items which do not
come under the cognizance of Parliament, we have notleen
unmindful of the principle of reduction. Early in this
session I introduced a Bill to carry into effect the largest
reduction which has been made for years with respect to
the revenue—l allude to the Bill for consolidating the
Board of Excise and the Board of Stamps and Taxes.
Since a relative of mine became Chairman of the Board
of Stamps and Taxes very considerable reductions have
bet n effected in that department, and it is but just to him
that I should state the reduction in the number of per-
sons employed and in the salaries paid. The paper lam
about to quote is "An Account showing the Decrease in
the number of Officers and Salaries of the Board of In
land Revenue, in 1849, as compared with the Boards of
Excise, Stamps, and Taxes, in 1833." In 1833 the
number of persons employed was 9,083, it is now 7,329,
being a reduction of 2,054. The amount of salaries in
1833 was 962,2661., it is now 715,092/., being a decrease
of 247,1741., or nearly a quarter of a million of money.—
(Hear) This statement, I may observe, does not include
persons employed in the collection of the income-tax,
who could riot be fairly included in the comparison.
The Committee on the miscellaneous expenditure recom-
mended that persons who had been employed in Govern-
ment offices should not, if it could be avoided, be

placed upon permanent retired allowances, but that
their services should, when possible, be made available.
Now, last year a Bill was passed abolishing the Excise
survey upon spirits, and the number of stations conse-
quently discontinued was 600. At the time of the abo-
lition there were 51 of those stations vacant ; 90 officers
were superannuated, for the Government find it quite
impossible to re-introduce very old men to active em-
ployment, and therefore persons above 60 years of age
are allowed to retire upon allowances; five officers have
died; one bas been discharged; 188 have since been re-
appein ted to other stations; and 325 are remaining to be
absorbed as vacancies may occur. The whole patronage
of the Government has been given up in erder to carry
out this plan—(Hear, hear)--and I therefore believe
that the whole of these persons will be re-employed:in the
public service. An inquiry is proceeding with the view
of carrying out a similar plan with regard to the Cus-
toms (as we understood), and I hope that we may be able
to carry on this system of reduction, which I believe not
only tends to economy, but also to the efficiency of the
public service. I have not before stated that I have thought
i; right to reduce the salaries of these officers, because I
do not believe that, as a class, they are overpaid—
(Hear)—but we have reduced the numuers; and I think
the public service can be better conducted by a smaller
number of well paid officers than by a large number of
under-paid men who are not so well qualified to discharge
the duties which devolve upon them.—(Hear.) I will
only say that I can give no better assurance to the
House as to the course the Government have been pur-
suing for some time, and in which they are determined
to persevere, than the statement I have made.—(Hear,
hear.) I cannot, of course, at this time foretell what
reductions may be made in future years; for in such
times as these, when no man can say what the morrow
may bring forth, it would he absurd to predict what
amount of force it may be necessary to keep up in sub-
sequent years ; but with regard to the expenditure
which has been undertaken for the completion of the

works, and for the increase of stores, I can only say
that when those werles are completed, and when the
proper quantum of steres is obtained, the necessity for
that expenditure vvilj cease. I hope there is every pros
pect of the revenue of the country increasing, and that
in subsequent years we may see such a surplus of in-
come as will place us in a more comfortable position
than I must admit we stand in at present. It is impos-
sible not to be uneasy at so small an amount of surplus
as that which I have anticipated in the course of this
year.—((fear, hear.) I coesidt r that it is neither safe
nor creditable that a surplus should not be perma
nently maintained sufficient to meet the exiraerdi-
nary contingencies that may occur in a cetietry like
this, and I should not think that anything but the
peculiar circumstances of the time would justify us
in going on with so small a surplus as I have anti-
cipated; but, as long as there is a surplus, Ido not
think that it is necessary to impose, or to at-
tempt to impose, any new burden upon the
country for the purpose of creating a further surplus.
I must say, however, to those gentlemen who have given
notice of their intention to move fur the reduction or re.
peal of some existing taxes, that, with the present
amount of surplus, I think they cannot expect me to
accede to any such measures.—(Hear, hear.) I also
wish to put', another consideration befere those± gentle-
men;—that if, as soon as we get any moderate amount
of surplus, it is to be given up in repealing some email
amount of taxation, we never shall be in a condition to
make any of those large changes which would be most
beneficial to the country.—(Hear, hear.) Last year a
proposal was made to reduce the duty on tea—a mea-
sure which would cause the risk of some 2,000.0001. of
revenue. The tea duty produces nearly 5,000.000/. It
was proposed to reduce that duty from 2s. and a fraction
to is ; and will any Hon. Gentleman contend that
such a change would not involve the risk of at least
2,000,0001.? If the House is prepared to impose
other taxes, in order to enable such an experiment to be
made, well and good ; but if it is not so prepared
it must not throw away in the reduction of small
items of taxation the nucleus of a future sur-
plus which may be applied to more beneficial
reductions. Another measure which was pressed
upon the Government was the revision of the Stamp
duties—a step which would involve, in all probability, a
10Sf of some 300,000/. or 400,0001., with the risk of still
further loss. I must, then, impress upon Honourable
Gentlemen that if they really wish any of those changes
in taxation to take place which past experience has
shown to be beneficial in the end, it is utterly impossible
that such changes can be made until in some way
or other a surplus is obtained which would justify the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in making the experiment.
—(Hear, hear.) As I have shown before, it is a perfect
mistake to suppose that the country is not at this moment
enjoying, year by year, the advantage of reduced taxa-
tion in respect to those duties which, by the operation of
Acts now in force, are diminishing year by year. That
will go on a year or two more, and I hope the expendi-
ture will be brought down, while the ordinary revenue
will be increased, and that we shall be in a more favour-
able position then that at present. The circumstances
which occurred last year, the famine and distress in
trade, were such as to account for the depression in the or-
dinary revenue; and, in such a case, the sa'est course to
pursue is to avoid all rash experiments, and to do nothing
which might disturb the ordinary course of trade or oppose
any impediment to the advancement of that improvement,
which I hope will gradually progress. Thus we shall
be in a better situation to bear the continuance of un-
favourable circumstances, if they should continue; and,
if a favourable change should occur, we shall be in a
better condition to take advantage of the return of
prosperity.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
'hen concluded by proposing that the sum of 3,000 0001.
be paid out of the consolidated fund towards making
good the supply granted to her Majesty.
Mr. HUME did not think the Government entitled to
so much credit as they claimed for any reduction of ex-
penditure, because it had been brought about by a pres
sure on the Government. However, his complaint was,
that a great increase of expenditure had taken pl Ice
during the two preceding years without any reason. He
lid not deny that many obnoxious taxes had been re-
pealed, and he had often expressed his opinion that no
man had done more good in re peer to relieving the
country from taxation than the Rieht lion. Member for
ratnworth, who took off 8,000,000/. of taxation which
pressed on the industry of the country, and substituted
5,000,0001. of taxation placed ou the capital of the
country. There was a return before the House of the
public expenditure from 1822-23 to 1846-47 in-
elu-ive ; and, having divided that return from
the year 1824 into periods of five years each,
he found that the country had been subject
during the last five years to a greater amount
if taxation than during any other of the periods of five
years. From 1824 to 1828 the average yearly amount
of revenue vk as 56.418,0001., and the average yearly ex-
penditure 55,518,0001.; and those were years when strong
complaints were made of the amount of the public ex-
penses. In the next five years, from 1829 to 1833, the
average revenue was 52.634,0001., and the average ex•
penditure, 51,60:5,000/. From 1834 to 1838 the average
receipt was 51,000.0001., and the average expenditure,
50.000,000/. From 1839 to 1843 the average receipt
was 52,400,000/, and the average expenditure
55,000,000/., showing an excess of nearly 3,000,000/.
over the receipt ; and from 1844 to 1848, instead of
their being a decrease of taxation, the average receipt
was 57,000,000/., being 600,000/. more than the average
for the period from 1824 to 1828, and 5.000,000/. more
than the average of the other years ; and the expendi-
ture from 1544 to 1845 averaged 56 536,0001. Such
was the state of the case, although they were eternally
told that the country was relieved from taxation, and
that it ought to be thankful for it. He therefore com-
plained that they heard nothing from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that evening of measures tor the relief of
the country. It was quite true that the country could
not be relieved if the army and navy were kept up to
an unnecessary amount, it' the artillery were trebled,
and the miscellaneous expenses were increased. But
he hoped the time was coming when the Government
would feel a pressure from without on the subject.
Prices were falling and rents were coming down, and he
looked upon all these circumstances as aids towards pro-
curing that reduction which would give permanent relief
to the country. He prit)ed that wheat might come and
keep down to 355. a quarter, so that every one might
feel the difficulty, ter it was only the country gentlemen
who supported extravagance.—(Laughter.) He found,
among those who supported the motion for reduction
and reform on a recent occasion, were the major part of
the representatives of the great populous towns, but, un-
fortunately, the country gentlemen did not seem to know
their own interest, and opposed it. The time wet ap-
proaching when the people must be allowed to exercise
all their constitutional rights, and then he had no fear
but that they might reduce their expenditure by a sum
amounting to,if nonexceeding,lo,ooo,ooo/. He w as anxious
to maintain public credit, but the best means of doing so
was by economy and retrenchment, and not by extrava-
gance and the maintenance of large establishments. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer bad been persuaded to post-
pone the coll. coon of the hop duty, but he might take it off
altogether by cutting down some useless expenditure.
the duty collected on the importation of foreign books
amounted to 7,000/., and if they were to take away
the salary of the Governor of Ceylon they needed not
then to levy this sum on the introduction of foreign in-
formation. If the nous • would sapport him he would
print out methods by e hich the duties on malt, hops,
bricks, soap, windows, and paper, might be removed,
and public credit placed in a better condition than at
present. lie wished to get rid of the Excise, transfer-
ring the only two sources of revenue he would leave
under this head to another department, thus saving all
the expense of the present establishment. He was anx-
ious to maintain an efficient force in this country, but he
did not desire to see war establishments in time of peace;
and though desirous that every one in the public service
should be well paid, he wanted no more to be employed
than were required. It was a mockery to keep up 150
admirals when only 14 were wanted, and 350 generals
when only half-a-dozen could be employed. If the Go-
vernment went on recklessly in this manner the people
must speak out and decide the matter for themselves at
the next election. If every person who advocated re-
duction were to qualify himself' as a voter the country
would soon get relief. He was told that there was on
the part of the Government a real and sincere desire to
economise. Might God speed them! Let them direct
their attention to the army, the commissariat, the local
expenditure, the dockyards, and the wage of materials;
and let them consider that they might save money by
abolishing the Ordnance department and transferring
the business to the army establishment.
Sir J. TYRELL said that the Hon. Member bad
borne particularly hard on the country gentlemen, but
he must have a short memory, or he would have recol-
lected that only the other night the Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire, who ably represented the country gentle-
men, made a motion of a severe character with the view
of effecting a material reduction.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member for Montrose had indulged in a variety of
prophecies, but he (Sir J. Tyrell) had not the slightest
faith in them, for he recollected the repeated prophecies
uttered some years ago as to the advantages which the
Reform Bill was to confer on the country—advantages
almost as great as it had been promised would follow
the adoption of free trade; and he asked whether those
prophecies had been fu;filled? With respect to the
statement of the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, be thought it able in many respects, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman had made an omission in not
giving the House any insight into the extent of the
financial responsibility which devolved upon him in re-
ference to the state of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGES was understood to state that great dis-
tress prevailed among the growers of hops, and to ex-
press a hope that some relief would be afforded to them
in respect to the hop duty. He (Mr. Hodges) hoped
that even now seme m: asure of relief would be proposed.
Lord R. GROSVENOR had to express his regret that
no hope was held out of the repeal of that most unjust,
most oppressive, and most iniquitous tax—the atterneve
annual certificate duty.—(Ulear, hear, and a laugh
e)
He had to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer uo.
that this subject must now be pressed on thevfienrsotrn)tg,,hnt
when the ballot gave him (Lord R. G
opportunity of bringing on his motion, u
the necessity of
Hon. Gentleman, by yielding, preventedritorious, and, it
entht
Les: the Right
of hint
,minakitnhge
stating the case of a highly useful, meritorious,
hear.)
might be added, poweriulelas..—
Honl.r.Flir'ißezEidW( 4Nr.
Iciootidlgdes)conafinrmth(e the
subject of
duties.e hop
wh jtsuaihVahleidnayhee,
inquiries upon the state of the country, and he found it
(Mr.
Mher.toEirikewthene)owppaosrtiunn7ttylssoetx.
was utterly impossible that the hop duties could be col-
lected next October and November. If the Chancellor
would have to be sold up and incarcerated,
tohfethpelaEtaxecrhsequer insisted upon payment, more than half
as some of them had already most cruelly been; some
whom the Excise officers suspected to be not likely to be
able to pay their duties had been proceeded against aed
5-2111 to gaol, simply from their unfortunate circurn-
stances.—(Hear, hear.) If the hop duty should be main-
tained, the result would be that there must be gm cut-

break in the country.—(ol), oh.) The collection would
cost more than it was worth—(lleer, hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR thought the stare of the revenue
highly satisfactory.—(Hear, bear.) With regard to the
expenditure, he could not expect any great reduction,
unless Irelend could be put in a very different condition,
and the cost of the military estahlis' went and consta-
bulary force in that country reduced; for it was to re-
duction in that expenditure and the military expendi-
ture in the colonies that he chiefly locked. As to the
abolition of duties, he wished to see such a revenue raised
that the duties on hops, bricks, windows, paper and ad-
vertisements, might he repealed. tie was decidedly of
opinion that if the duty on tea were reduced to ls. we
should not for the next three years derive a revenue of
mere than 3,000,0001. from tea. He should be glad, with
a view to a reduction of duties, to see the income-tax
raised to 5 per cent.. hut was bound to say, that in the
present state of feeling in the House, such a proposition
would meet the same fate as the former proposal to in-
crease that tax —(Hear, hear.) Ho trusted the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would deal in the way of reform
with the Customs' regulations, and the inconvenient re-
strictions involved in them. He had confidence in the
Right Hon. Gentleman, from his course since he had had
the management of the public revenue.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COWAN had heard the statement of the Right
lion. Gentleman wi.b much gratification. It was evi-
dent that the resources of the country, if rightly ad-
ministered, were amply sufficient to meet all the en-
gagements which the national interest and honour re-
quired. (Hear, hear.) But it seemed strange that,
after showing that reeuctions of duties did not injure
the revenue, the Right Hon. Gentleman declined to
proceed further in that direction, and reduce the tea or
other duties. He (Mr. Cowan) hoped that a revision of
taxation would gradually take place, always having in
view the paramount necessity of keeping faith with the
public creditor.—([leer, hear.) Those excise duties
which tended to confine industry to the narrowest pos-
sible limits especially demanded consideration.
Mr. EWART thought the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had made a very clear statement—(Hear, hear)—
and he could not be expected to make any reduction of
duties without first considering tho means be had of sup-
porting the credit of the country.—(Hear.) Agreeing
that trade was fettered by our Customs and Excise
laws, and that we had not carried out the principle of
free-trade to its full extent, he (Mr. Ewart) was of
opinion that the first point should be to reduce the ex-
penditure, and the next to alter our system of taxation;
and he hoped to see the country gentlemen, no longer
supporting war and taxation, take their natural place
as the guardians of the public press. But he was
afraid they would never insist upon economy till low
prices forced them to it.
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND believed that in the de-
bates in that House the country gentlemen showed
themselves more masters of the question than gentlemen
opposite; and if he desired to give an instance of the
country gentlemen exposing an imposture attempted for
a particular occasion, he would point to the exposure by
his Hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pak-
iegton) of that Lancashire statement made the other day
with respect to the county expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
It was scarcely necessary for him (Mr. Drummond) to
say, after the opinions he had expressed in that House,
that he could not regard the statement of 'the Right
Hon. Gentleman as satisfactory; not that there was any-
thing not to be praised in it, but that it did not go to the
root of this question. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was quite right in not repealing small duties; those
which ought to be first repealed were those which
pressed exclusively upon the poor. It should be consi-
dered that in this country and in this climate, beer
brewed at home was a necessary of life; and the rule
just suggested would include also the case of bricks and
soap.—(Elear, hear.) He (Mr. Drummond) was very
sorry that the Government would not undertake to deal
with this great question. lie felt the deepest convic-
tion, and pain commensurate with that conviction, that
unless they did, the time was not far distant when the
Ledru Rollins and Proudhons of this country would.
the simple point was, whether these desperadoes were
to be suffered to do that, and a great deal more.
Mr. M. GIBSON thought his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Hume) was fully justified in making the remarks he did,
with the view of awakening the country party to resume
their ancient influence, and exercise the great political
power proper to them, in carrying reduction into effect.
—(Hear, hear.) For himselt (Mr. Gibson), not ex-
pecting much, he was not, on this occasion, disappointed;
but he would remark that the Gevernment would never
get much credit for economy—talk as they might about
delaying the completion of docks, and so on, so long as
the taxgatherer called upon the taxpayer for the same
amount of money as before.—(Hear, hear.) This
seemed a fitting occasion to observe, that the Govern-
ment deserved great credit for thefirm and successful
manner in which they carried the repeal of the naviga-
tion laws—(Loud cheers)—assisted, perhaps, in a reluc-
tant House of Lords by the dread of a Protectionist Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) But let not the Government
repose too lung upon their laurels; there were duties
embarrassing trade, and yielding little revenue, still to
be got rid of.—(llear.) In regard to the excise duties
that upon paper was most prejudicial to the export of
English books—(Hear)—and the duty upon paper used
for making cards in patterns was very objectionable.
The British silk manufacturer was placed at a great dis-
advantage; a witness before the Committee on the
School of Design stated that he paid 481. duty upon two
patterns. The Whigs had always repudiated taxes
upon knowledge; and the House had learned by a peti-
tion from Messrs. Chambers, of Edinburgh, that the ex-
cise duty on paper had caused them to discontinue the
publication of a work calculated for the humbler classes,
though the circulation was, or would have been 80,000.
Thee, too, there was the advertisement duty, and—still
more important—the penny stamp upon newspapers—
(Hear)—preventing the people from having the full
benefit ot a cheap press, as it was intended they should
have wht n Mr. Chadwick took up that question.—(Hear,
hear.) It was satisfactory to see the great success which
had attended the commercial policy ot the Right Hon-
ourable Gentleman the Member fur Tamworth.—(Hear,
hear.) If ever there was a policy, the success of which
was capable of mathematical demonstration, it was this,
both in respect to revenue and its effects noon trade.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gibson) might add that he be-
lieved in the cotton districts, trade was in a more satis-
factory position than it bad been; and that our home
trade had not been so bad as some gentlemen would wish
to make out.—(Hear, hear.) He believed he might say
that the labouring population in the north of England
were never in a much better condition, and that their
wages never commanded a larger share of the neces-
saries and comforts of life. There was still a large mar-
gin for improvement, and changes in the commercial
policy of the country might still be made which would to
a very considerable extent, further improve the condi-
tion of the people.
Mr. STAFFORD said the Hon. Member for Mont-
rose had charged the country gentlemen with being blind
to their own interests, and the agriculturists had been
also accused of being a divided party; but the farmers
were, he believed, still more opposed to free trade, and
more favourable to a retrogressive policy than even the
country gentlemen. The Right Ilon. Gentleman (Mr.
M. Gibson) had told the House that the labourers in
the north were well employed, and that their wages
were good.
Mr. G I BSON— No.
Mr. STAFFORD--But in the district of England
with which he was connected he regretted to say that to
flattering a tale could not be told; for the population of
Northumptenshire were suffering from decreasing em-
ployment and increasing poor-rares. There were some
articles of food upon which a purely protective duty was
now levied, and of which great complaints used to
_he
made during the corn-law agitation, but against wmeh
uttered
one Hun.l
s Go
redn.tlHemeeannhuaddlintoot
tohnetdhuetiperseuseunht
uotetcearsaiturnd
Why was no voice raised for the repeal of these duties?
Because Hon. Members opposite knew that the revenue
derived from these articles could not be spared; and
what these Hon. Gentlemen said of those duties they
(the Protectionist Members) affirmed with reference to
other duties which had been repealed—viz. that they
could not carry out their system of free trade' and con-
tinue to maintain faith with the national creditor.--
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) believed, with the
Right Hon. Gentleman, that free trade had still much
further to go, and that the time might come when tho
country gentlemen would find themselves placed in the
difficulty of having to choose between following the
opinions of those whom they represented and perform-
ing their public duty. It might happen that the farmers,
believing that they had been deprived of protection
disingenuously and unfairly, might no longer be favour-
able, as heretofore they had been, to the maintenance of
our aristocratic institutions, and therein consisted the
democratic nature of Air. Cobden's movement.
Mr. COBDEN would not be seduced into a free trade
discussion on the present occasion, and would merely
express his opinion that the events and experience of
every successive day were justifiying the views which
the free traders took with respect to a free trade in corn.
—(Hear, hear.) He, for one, was perfectly prepared to
abide by the results of that experiment. But when the
Hon. Member (Mr. Stafford) appeared to claim for the
farmers the credit of being the especially loyal class,
and said that they were now becoming democratic, and
that the institutions of the country were not safe in their
hands, he would deny that the farmers were an especially
loyal b, dy. lie believed that there was asmuchloyalty,
in the true acceptation of the term, in the shop-keepers_
districts.—(hear.) With regard to
nthe repeal of the
of London for example, as in the farmers. of the country
lel sosr of
fe
did one oft wo
the Excheuer
of the farmer, and he consideredas
much
malt-tax, be had made noprettehnasitothetore
Wbeertehea friend
doz,n
• other taxes as inju ious, and_requiring repeal,
the extreme
on
paocrctoaunnctoooff
trhe;
and either reduced his expenditure or increased
eeresmaoidviunegaeundthe
impediments
theeathos iu:lhagdems orutanitttax raised. possibly
br Buteyp direct the
e tchCt hanueneltaxation, lie agreed with
to find that on the discussion of the budget whichha attention
e nt
thi
oe they
ondwffeuheecaerlites'sdghiatteydoxtcbohiesfeeidnudtuisets;y othe country. And he was glad
of the House appeared to be directednotsotmLuch to the
more important, of taxes r
nportant,l7lehde owraryenaittinwt.dh,iebut, h what h awte trvea s mlevied,uch
and the injuries inflicted by the present mode in which
the revenue was levied.—(Hear.) Take the bop duty.
He had recently received several letters from Kent and
Sussex, from parties who requested him to bring forward
a motion for the repeal of the hop duty. Hop growers
were subject to all kinds of natural casualties and dime.
tern—their crops were liable to be attacked by flea, fly,
and honey 'dew, by all sorts of diseases and blights; but
he was informed that blight, flea, fly, and honey-dew,
were as nothing compared to the evils they suffered from
the excise duties; and that this duty was like a pe-
riodical blight affecting the whole districts of the coun-
try. Now, was it de Arable, for a beggarly amount of
250,000/., that they should levy a tax that produced
desolation, want of employment, bankruptcy, arid
ruin, in four or five counties in England, and which he
(Mr. Cobden) had been assured by a gentleman in Sus-
aez eras likely to produce au outbreak in the county- if