The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-02 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 30.
POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of Saturday.)
The discussion upon the 13th clause was continued.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, although this
appeared to be an ex post judo law it was not substan-
tially so, for no person could take possession of an
estate upon a judgment without first paying the arrears
of rates.

After a few observations from Mr. NAPIER,

The clause was agreed to, as was also clause 14.
Mr. HERBERT rose to propose an additional clause,
his object being to diminish the evils arising from the
existing law. He intended to discourage the eviction of
tenants, and thus, instead of injuring the towns, he would
confer a great boon upon them. lie did not pretend to
settle the differences as between union and union, for
nothing but a law of settlement could accomplish such an
object, but still this clause would not increase these diffe-
rences. The Hon. Member then moved the following
clause:—" And be it enacted, that, for the purpose of
charging the expense of relief to any rating district, every
person making application for relief shall, after the
passing of this Act, be deemed to have been resi-
dent in such rating?, dictriet. in which during the
period of five years next immediately before his
application for relief he shall have been longest
usually resident, whether by usually occupying
any tenement situate or by usually sleeping within such
district: provided always, that where any such person
shall not have occupied a tenement, or slept within any
such rating district for at least six months in the whole
during the said period of five years, the expense of the
relief of such person shall in such case be borne
by and charged against the whole union in which
he or she is relieved. And be it enacted, that
when for the purpose of charging the expenses of
relief within any electoral division or divisions, the
limits of such division or divisions shall be altered, or
such division or divisions shall be subdivided by the
Commissioners into two or more rating districts, the
said Commissioners may, as they shall see fit or neces-
sary, increase or alter the number of the guardians to
be elected for such electoral division or divisions for the
purpose of enabling them to assign, if they deem it
expedient, one guardian to each and every such rating
district ; or if it shall appear to the said Com-
missioners inexpedient to m .ke any such increase or
alteration, then the said Commissioners may, in every
such case, but only for the election of guardians, form
any two or more of such rating districts into one
electoral division, and may have end exercise, with re-
gsrd to every such electoral division, when so formed,
the same powers of determining, and from time to time
altering, the number of eleciive guardians, and
of fixing the qualification of such guardians as
are now ves!: d the said Cummissireers with regard
to eh ctoral ei%i4:oes existing at the time of the passing
of this Act. And be it enacted, that from at.d after
the passing of this Act, every justice of the peace act-
ing tor soy county in Ireland, and otherwise qualified
ure!er the law now in force to be, or to be appointed,
an ex neicio guardian of any union within such county,
and who shall be seised, possessed, or entitled for his own
use and benefit of or to any lands, tenements, or heredi-
tam, nts situate within
such uni.:n, or in the rents and
profits thereof, for any life or lives in being, or for any
term of twenty-one years at the least, such estate beine of
the yearly value of fifty pounds at least, shall be eligible
t,) be, or to be appointed, an ex officio guardian of
such union, notwithstanding that justice shall not be
resident within the same. And be it enacted, that no
distress tap non-payment of any rate, or part of any
rate, sbalrEereafter be levitd or taken upon any rateable
property being of the descriptions following, that is to
say : implements of husbandry, gardening cr farming
utensils, horses, carts, and horse furniture, provided that
the same respectively shall be in the actual or habitual
use or employment of th 3 person or persons possessing
the same."

Mr. FAGAN gave the Hon. Member every credit for
the goodness of his intenti,•ns, but considered that the
clause would have a ny)st injurious Efflct upon Cork and
other large cities in Ireland.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he could not object to
the clause, if 18 months were substituted for six months,
and three years for five yean.
Sir D. NORREYS said this was really a question of
selfishness. He said it was not just to limit the period
to six months of the five years, during which a person
shall have slept or occupied a tenant in the rating dis-
trict, before the relief el such a person shall be charged
against the whole union in which he was relieved.
After a few words from Mr. SCULLY,

Sir W. BARRON said he hoped the Government
would adopt the clause in all its integrity, and not limit
the chargeability to a three years' residence.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL said the pre-
sent law had been an encouragement to the horrifying
evictions in Ireland, of which they had recently heard so
much. The persons so evicted flocked into small vil-
lages, and became chargeab:e, if disease did nut carry
them off, to districts which ought nut rightfully to be
called upon to support them. This was an evil well
worthy theattentioa of the Government.

Mr. HERBERT said this clause was the best provi-
siun that had ever been suggested to the House for a
long time, for preventing the system of eviction in Ire-
land, and he hoped if the Government did not adopt it
in its integrity, they would at least do so with some
modification as to time. _

After some further discussion it was agreed that the
clause should be adopted, amended as proposed by Sir
W. Somerville, with the exception of substituting
" twelve months" fur " six months," as suggested by the
Right Hon. Baronet.
A clause was then agreed to by Mr. HERBERT and
Mr. C. LEWIS, with respect to the boundary lines of
certain unions, to w hich all the unions in the electoral
division should bebound:—" And be it enacted, that
from and after the pissing of this Act, every justice of
the peace acting for any county in Ireland, and other-
wise qualified utlGer the laws now in force to be,
or to be appointed,; an ex cfficio,_ guardian of
any union such county, and '
sto' shall be
seised, pos!essed, or entitled for his own
use and benefit of or to any lands, tenements, or heredi-
taments situate within such union, or in the rents and
profits thereof, for any life or lives in being, or for any
term of twenty-one years at the least, such estate being
of the yearly value of fifty pounds at the least, shall be
eligible to be, or to be appointed, an ex officio guardian
of such union, notwithstanding that justice shall not be
resident within the same."

Sir J. GRAHAM was opposed to the propcsition—to
an increase in the number of ex officio guardians, and
had opposed it in Committee, because the effect would
be that it would be difficult to make up the desired pro-
portion of ordinary and official guardians. It was a
subject upon which much jealousy existed, and ho con-
sidered that it would not be well to restrict the number
unless induced to do so by some argument which he had
not yet heard.
Mr. FOX said his residence in Ireland adjoined an
union, in which he and others had property, but who did
not reside in it. It was but right that they should sit as
ex officio guardians.
Mr. HERBERT considered that much good would
arise by gentlemen of property sitting as guardians. In-
deed, the great difficulty at present was to get properly-
qualified guardians. He trusted, therefore, the Right
Hon. Baronet would withdraw his opposition.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL hoped he would persevere with
it. The clause would favour a class who had great in-
fluence with the directors.

Mr. VESEY supported the clause, and stated cases
in support of it.
Mr. SCULLY considered that if ex•olicio guardians
did not attend to their duty, that they should be ex-
pelled.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said, on the part of Ireland, with
which he was connected, this clause would be thought
nsost objectionable. There should be a division upon it.
The clause was amended on the suggestion of Sir
GEORGE GREY, and agreed to.
Mr. HERBERT then proposed—" That no distress
for non-payment of any rate, or part of any rate, shall
hereafter be levied or taken upon any rateable property
being of the descriptions following, that is to say; im-
plements of husbandry, gardening or farming utensils
horses, carts, and horse furniture, provided that the same
respectively shall be in the actual or habitual use or
employment of the person or persons possessing the
same." '

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL referred to the law
upon this subject, and was understood to give it as his
opinion that such articles were exempt.
Mr. STAFFORD considered that the English law in
this respect should be extended to Ireland; the goods of
the poor tenant should be protected.
After a few words from Mr. STAFFORD,
Sir W. BARRON said that almost every clause in
this Bill was contrary to the law of England.
In answer to Mr. SCULLY,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated the method
by which the rates could be collected.
Mr. CLEMENTS said that in the present state of
Ireland the only method of getting on was to meet
poverty with adequate relief.
Mr. MONSELL said that the argument of the Attor-
ney-General was just to the effect of putting on a pair of
thumbscrews.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that if this clause were
passed there would be no rate paid in Ireland.
Mr. SCIWPE approved of the humanity of the
clause, but he thought that there was no other means of
getting rates.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY agreed 'with the Right Hon.
Baronet who had just spoken.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL thought that the rejection of the
clause would entail additional poverty upon Ireland.
Sir A. BROOKE hoped that his Hon. Friend would
withdraw his motion.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Mr. CLESIENTS moved certain clauses regarding
poor-law unions, of which he hati.given notice.
Mr. MONSELL thought that these clauses would not
be of any use. He could not see the object of them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that there were many instances in which these clauses
would apply. It was most desirable, in all electoral divi.
sions, to provide workhouse accommodation ; he almost
thought it would be advisable to withdraw all out-door
relict. He thought that those gentlemen who advocated
smaller areas of taxation wished to legislate for property,
not for the poor.
Mr. STAFFORD thought that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer bad not answered his Friend the Hon. Mem-
ber for Limerick; but this he had done: he had fixed a
stigma on a large body of influential gentlemen. He hoped
that be woult explain the hard words which he had
used, iu order that he might retain the character of fair-
ness which that side of the House would always be wil-
ling to.. to him. If not the burden of such a charge
roust remain with him. He hoped, however, that this
clause would be rejected.

Th C fi A NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
that he did not mean to apply the observations he had
made use of to his Hon. Friend opposite., The object of
the clause was to save the poor travelling great cliatanceo

to obtain relief, and he could not therefore but think it
worthy of the consideration of the House.
Mr. HERBERT regretted the aspersions that had
been made on Members on that side of the House by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was sure they
were totally uncalled for. As to the clause, it was im-
possible to say there might not be cases of hardship; but
he did not see the necessity for legislation upon the
subject.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought it would be better
to postpone the motion until the Government brought
forward its plan for the erection of new union work-
houses.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said this was only a
clause to enable the Poor-law Commissioners to supply
the poor of a new union with board and lodging in the
existing workhouses until new union workhouses were
erected.
After some observations from Sir John Walsh, Mr.
Clements, Mr. Monsell, Mr. Vesey, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and other Hon. Members,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said they should never lose
sight that they were dealing not with a temporary, but
a permanent alteration of the Irish poor-law. He would
not object to this clause if it were to be of temporary
operation, and were intended to meet a temporary
difficulty, but as a permanent clause he thought it
would be attended with considerable difficulty. Without
wishing to enter into any controversy, he might state
that he was most anxious that the size of the unions and
electoral divisions in the south and south-west of
Ireland should be materially diminished. 'De
standard of the Ulster unions and electoral divi-
sions were infinitely preferable to the divisions in the
south and south-west.--(Hear.) It was of primary im-
portance that there should be in a central position in
every union a workhouse which could be easy of access,
and if assistance were given by the Exchequer to
Ireland in its present difficulties, it could not be
more safely applied than in building new work-
houses. Time, however, would be required to effect
these objects, but this clause might meet all immediate
difficulty, if the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) would give a pledge that it should
only be of a temporary nature.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had not the slightest difficulty in giving such an as-
surance, for it was obvious to every one that nothing
could be more inconvenient, or even preposterous, than
to make the clause of a permanent nature.
Mr. CLEMENTS said it had never been his intention
to permanently introduce the clause.
After some discussion, " six calendar months" was
substituted for " oue calendar month," and the clause was
agreed to.
Mr. MONSELL then proposed certain clauses rela-
tive to advancing moneys tram the surplus of rates to
persons wishing to emigrate, and provisions for the re-
payment of the same.
Sir I/ nham Norreys, Sir W. Ferguson, and Colonel
Dunne, opposed the ciauses.
Lord N AS thought that the public money of Ire-
land should be applied to such a purpose.
Alter some further conversation, the clauses were
ordered to be added to the 8.11.
Colonel DUNNE ruse to move two clauses, to the
first of which he thought there would be no objection,
to separate the rate for the able-bodied from the rate
appropriated to the sick.
air. C. LEWIS apprehended that the object of this
clause was already effected by the manner in which
the books of every union were kept. He trusted that,
under these circumstances, his Hun. and Gallant Friend
would not press his motion.
Colonel DUNNE declined to do so, but after some
conversed na was induced to do so. The Gallant Colonel
then said his second clause would probably ceuse some
discussion, and thought it would be better if the Chair
man would report progress.—(No, no.)
Mr. VESEY said the principle of the Hon. and Gal-
!ant Gentleman's motion had already b.-:en disposed of in
a former division.

Colonel DUN.NE still thought it would be loctvr if
the Chairman reported pr. gres3,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
it would be better that the Chairman should rep rt pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again on Monday,
as it appeared impossible to finish the Bill
that evening. It must, however, be understood
that the obtaining leave to sit again on Monday
was only for the purpose of postponing
the further consideration of the Bill to Tuesday, at
twelve o'clock, on which day he trusted they would
be able to go through all the clauses of that Bill.
The House then resumed, the Chairmaa reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.
The House adjourned shortly after Six o'clock.

THE ARMY.
(From the United Service Gazette.)

NEGLECT OF THE COMMISSARIAT.—The officers of the
Commissariat department quartered at Dublin are not
included in the invitations (which are occasionally ex-
tended to officers of other branches of the service)
either to the Viceregal Court or to the hospitable
table of the Commander of the Forces, or General
Officer or other commanding the district. We feel satis-
fied that these facts, as affecting a department second to
none in the service for gentlemanly feeling and education,
require only to be known to the executive authorities for
the apparent and unintentional slight to meet a remedy.
We directed attention a short time since to a similar
subject, nearer home—the corps of Royal Marines not
being included i❑ the invitations to the state balls at
Buckingham Palace, which, we believe, was immediately
resporded to in a manner most gratifying to that gallant
corps. _ _ _

STAFF, &c.—Colonel Lyons, 23d Fusiliers, is Town
Major of Portsmouth garrison. Colonel Sir C. R.
O'Donnell has been removed to the Kilkenny, from the
Limerick, district, still holding the command at Water-
ford. Lord Errol has ceased to be an Aide-de-Camp
to the Earl of Elgin, and has become an extra Aide-
de-Camp to Major-General the Honourable C. Gore.
Lieutenant Peebles, 59th Regiment, has been appointed
Acting-Paymaster to the depot of the regiment. Major
Bailey has succeeded Lieutenant Gloster as Acting-Ad-
jutant to the depot of the 38th Foot. Lieutenant
Pease, 12th Foot, is superintending officer of the Aber-
deen recruiting district.

TRUCK SYSTEM IN THE DOCKYARDS.—In order to do
away with any trucking influence prevailing in the
dockyard towns, the Admiralty have ordered that no
one belonging to her Majesty's service shall keep a shop
for the sale of tools.

MINING INTELLIGENCE.
(From the Mining Journal.)
The bargains transacted this week in the mining share
market have been very limited.
Mary Ann's have teen in request, at an advance; 94
tons of silver lead ores have been sold this week, rea-
lising nearly 1,4001., being two months' raisings.
The improvements in Alfred Consols have created an
inquiry for shares, at better prices.
Tincrofts have been iu demand, an improvement hav-
ing taken place in the 90 fm, level west, on Chappel's
lode, which is worth 301. per fm, for tin ; the stopes
in the back of the 24 fm, level are productive
—4O to 50 tons of good will be produced. The mine
throughout is looking well, both for tin and copper.
Shares in the following mines have been transacted:—
Devon Great Consols, South Frances, West Caradon,
East Tamar, Keswick, Mendip Hills, Heingston Down
Consols, Brewer, Wheal Mary Ann, Alfred Consols,
Trelawney, Stray Park, Kingsett and Bedford, Kirkcud-
brightshire, Birch Tor, Tincroft, Tamar Consols, South
Trelawney, South Molton, Esgair Lli, Cwm Erfin, &e.
North Pool adventurers declared a dividend of 304
per share on Friday last.
At the Fowey Consols meeting, the profit on four
months' working to April was shown to have been 2371.
Is. 6d., which, added to balance of previous account, lelt
in hand 6,247/. Os. 3d.
Herodsfoot adventurers held a special meeting, for
the purpose of investigating the accounts and appointing
a manager. It was ascertained that liabilities to the
amount of 2,567/. had been suffered to accrue. A call of
51. per share was made towards liquidating the debt, and
Mr. J. Wolferstan was appointed manager, in whose
hands we shall, after a few months, see a more creditable
statement of accounts. The mine is represented as
much improved.
At the Bolanos meeting, on Wednesday, the direc-
tors' report was principally devoted to an explanation of
the works which had been carried on at El Bote Mine,
and the financial position of the company, from which
it appeared that 41,882 dolls, had been expended on it
in 32 months, to March, 1848, of which 15,494 dolls, were
profit, and that, in the past year, further expenditure
had been incurred to the extent of 84,636 dolls. This
heavy outlay had been incurred in the erection of neces-
sary works, machinery, roads, &c.; and the whole was in
a perfect and effective state to proceed with spirit on the
production of the necessary funds. The balance of as-
sets over liabilities, in Mexico, was 56,829 dolls., in ad-
dition to the Bolanos stock, engines, haciendas, &c. The
meeting unanimously sahctioned the issue of 14,000
shares, at 34 per share, by way of loan, to be returned
from first profits, and the shares to be retained as bonus,
ranking equal to original shares.
Sharp Tor Company held a general meeting on
Thursday; the financial statement showed a balance of
760/. in hand, and the accounts from the mine were con-
sidered by the shareholders as very satisfactory.
In foreign mines the transactions have also been li-
mited. Guadalcanal, United Mexican, St. John del
Rey, Imperial Brazilian, and Copiapo shares, appear
to be the extent of bona fide business.
St. John del Rey directors have received letters to the
18th April, which represents the result of ten days'
tatjtrn
pooiffnltgbh7ue'st month sitciwtea's
not expected to be in the same as amounting to 7,615 °haves, being at the
r
per cubic foot of sand. The first ten
d
have shown an unexpected and large
e
u ;
rseae:of 18-t8 and
pro-
portion throughout the month. Ina co
comparative
ati
vesum
mary of costs of the first three months 1849,
ge
tphreofietxs pheanisebseenhaernelard by 57 per cent.
increased 17i per cent., while the
By the India and China mail we have received
East. advises
t
of the position of the metal market in the
Bombay a fair demand for copper exists at a steady
prices, and sales do not appear to be confined to any par-
ticular sorts. In iron, although there has been some
considerable arrivals, it has in nowise effected the prices.
Spelter had been scarce, and the recent imports only
gave moderate stocks. Lead and steel maintained the
quotations, notwithstanding the transactions were few;
stocks of tin plates were light and business dein
The Calcutta market had not been so good, copp!r.
having slightly receded, and the trade dull ; but a reac-
tion has subsequently taken place, and business dono at
improved prices. Spelter is represented as nearly the
same, whilst quotations for lead appear nominal. Eng-
lish iron had receded, but now a fair demand exists, and
prices improved. At Hong Kong, the business has been
chiefly confined to iron and steel, and transactions but
few.

Dispatches were sent off on Saturday evening from the
Colonial-office, for the Governors of the West India
Colonies.