The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-06 00:00:00

CLAIMS ON FRANCE.

Mr. HENRY BERKELEY moved for returns of all
unsettled demands on the funds provided by the Go-
vernment of France for the liquidating the claims of
British subjects, and of the balance which remains
unappropriated to the liquidation of such claims,
including interest thereon; together with copies of
Treasury minutes relating to the surplus fund arising out
of the treaties and conventions of 1814, 1815, and 1818,
between his late Britannic Majesty and the King of
France (in continuation of the returns already printed
by order of the House of Commons of the 26th day of
May, 1833, 3d day of March, 1834, and the 22d day of
July, 1840).—Agreed to.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

Mr. HUME, in rising to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the national representation, by extending
the elective franchise so as to include all householders,
by enacting that votes shall be taken by ballot, that the
duration of Parliaments shall not exceed three years,
and that the apportionment of representatives be ren-
dered more equal to the population, said, in addressing
himself to this important subject, he must ask for the
indulgence of the House, as he did not feel himself
physically able to go fully into it. As an old re-
former, addressing a reformed House of Parliament, he
could speak from experience as to how unsatisfactory it
was for an independent Member to address the House
on subjects of reform. During the last thirty years he
had scarcely ever known a private Member introduce
such a subject that it was not treated as
it were unworthy of the time bestowed upon
it. lie took a full share in the reforms of 1831,
and he was happy that they had proved so successful,
because their success had convinced many parties of
talent and influence, who opposed them, that they had
placed this country in the unenviable position it now occu-
pied. He was confident, though the Reform Bill was not
carried out to that extent which many expected, that it
had been productive of the greatest possible benefits;
that it had put an end to the direct nomination for
boroughs which formerly existed; and though it had
fallen short of what they anticipated, they must yet
look with gratitude to the change that was produced, and
thank those who had contributed to bring it about. He
believed an opinion now existed very generally among
those who opposed that grand proceeding, that it
had been productive of much good, and had satisfied
many clesses who were aggravated at the state of things
which then existed; and it was because he thought
that reform was not carried out to the extent which
it ought to go; it was because he saw in refusing
to yield that which was the right of the gri at
masses of this country ; it was on those grounds that he
was induced to make the motion which was on
the paper, although very unwilling to do so, for
he had promised as long as he remained in
the House that he would not let a session pass
without using his humble endeavours to forward the
reforms which he proposed. He was not prepared to
deny that the House, and Parliament generally, was slow
in making reforms, but it was better to go slow and
sure than to make rapid strides, which were liable to
danger. But he was prepared to submit that
hich he thought was not in any way attended with
danger, because it would produce great content
and satisfaction among the community at large,
who were anxious that it should be carried out.
Every one, he believed, from the Crown to the
peasant, were equally interested in
having a good.
government. He was aware that Parliament, instead of
being an engine to promote that good which was in-
tended, was an engine which extracted from the people
a greater amount of taxation than their circumstances
could warrant. Under the great improvements,
however, which had taken place, it was no longer in the
power of any aristocracy, of any oligarchy, or of any
class of individuals, as on former occasions, to
dictate to the Sovereign, who had now the
power of choosing her own Ministers.—(Hear, hear.)
Up to the Reform Bill the Sovereigns of' this country
had been the leading string of the oligarchy, and the
revenue and the expenditure which was carried on in
the different establishments had reference more
to their own individual interests, and the
interests of the classes belonging to them, and the in-
terests of the community at large were not at all taken
into account. Now, he would say, that unless Parliament
was what it purported to be—unless it represented the
whole population—it was defective in its constitution.
He did not say that any proposition of his could make
Parliament perfect; but where they had evidence of acts
of injustice committed in regard to the rights of those
who ought to participate and have a share in the
elections to that House, ho did say that every
proposition that would tend to improve that Par-
liament ought to be supported by the House, and
by the Ministers beyond all others; they Lad
taken an oath to her Majesty to support such measures
as would tend to the security of the Throne, and the
welfare of the community at large. He would ask
those Ministers if they could lay their heads on their
pillows with the reflection that they had acted as
honest and faithful advisers of the Crown, to allow
a state of discontent to exist which at times
had threatened alarming consequences? Were he (Mr.
Hume) in their situation, and had taken the oaths they
had taken, he could not lay his head upon his pillow,
and, as a Minister of the Crown, say that he had done
his duty. He recollected Mr. Canning, on a motion
brought forward by a late Member for Westminster (Sir
F. Burdett) standing up in his place, and saying:--" As
for me I take my stand against all reform; I am for the
rotten boroughs; I wish to maintain them, and I do so
because England has enjoyed a greater proportion of
prosperity under the system which has existed
.than in
any of the continental powers; but (said Mr. Canning) I
go further, Parliament has been ready to meet the cir-
cumstances of the times, and I will uphold, until I see
reason for thinking otherwise, Gaston and Old Sarum
as the bulwarks of the Constitution."—(A laugh.) He
(Mr. Hume) had visited Old Sarum a few days previously,
and seen not even a house there, and nothing but an old
building for protecting the fort ; and he asked Mr. Can-
ning if that was a place to be represented. He replied,
no ; but it is property, and property ought to be
represented. As to Gatton and Old Sarum, and all the
other rotten places, they were now removed; and at the
period of. which he spoke, defective although that House
was in its representation, still it stood at the top of the
ladder among representative governments. No state in
Europe could say that there was a greater degree of
popular power or of popular representation existing
than existed at that time in England. The times were
changed, and they had to consider whether they ought
not now to make other changes. When his Ho-
nourable Friend Mr. Duncombe brought in a Bill
to repeal the rate-paying clauses, which formed a
great impediment to the working of the Reform
Bill, it was thrown out by Ministerial influence.
He (Mr. Hume) recollected the Noble Lord rallied his
Hon. Friend on the danger of interfering with the Bill
that had passed, and talked about progressive reform.
What had been the Noble Lord's progressive reform since
that? Why, the Noble Lord gave notice of his intention
of bringing in a Bill for repealing the tax-paying clauses
so tar as they related to the assessed taxes. He (Mr.
Hume) thought the proceeding 3 of the two last years
bad been perfectly delusive, and therefore he came to
the c nclusion that the Noble Lord and his colleagues,
reformers as they were in his day, had made
up their minds to stand fast by the Reform
Bill. They were now at the very bottom of the ladder
of represen.ative government, and that which had been
supposed dangerous to Englishmen had been conceded
to Frenchmen and to almost every continental country.—
(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Look at the result
What had the result been? The result bad arisen from
the reckless conduct of the sovereign of France, who,
having agreed to reform, grossly violated his faith.
He appealed to any man whether this had
not been so ? Let them mark the progress
of universal suffrage in other countries, and its growth
in oar own, ln other countries, where it had been Con,

coded to the people, had there been any alarm ?
No! On the contrary, the returns at recent elections
shored a prepenitrance of the Conservative party.
Though the people of these countries had been up to the
time when they were end ,wed with the right unaccus- '
turned to popular institutions, they had exercised the
right, to speak justly of them, in the
most praiseworthy manner. The Noble Lord
was the first to cheer his interrogatory. Look
at the result ? Why, if he looked to the condition
of Prussia, of Vienna, he could not fail to be struck
with the result of the conduct of the " dear
darling Sovereigns," who, after taking solemn
oaths on the altars of their country, to concede reform
to the people, openly broke those solemn asseverations.
Those were the parties against whom the Noble Lord
should direct his complaints and taunts, and not the
people who had been outraged, and who had no
interest at heart beyond that of the whole mass of the
population. Of late, however, he had not heard the ar-
gument broached that the people could not be trusted
with the unlimited exercise of the suffrage.—(Hear,
hear.) Indeed they were obliged to arm against the
people to awe them from arising in their might, and de-
manding their rights in a way which could not be
refused.—(Hear, hear) He looked with deep regret
upon this, because he recollected the days when
the Kings of this country could trust the
preservation of the peace of the country to the keeping
of their own people, and the peace was in those
days preserved by such means. He recollected the
time when the military was kept up to pro-
tect the country from foreign invasion, and when
garrisons in other lands were simply kept up to protect
places likely to be attacked by foreigners, when the
only display made by the military were recruiting par-
ties; when the expenditure in respect of the military
establishments was from 25,0001. to 26.000/., and when the
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston), when Secretary at War
(es we understood), stated before a Committee that he
only required military for foreign countries, and that he
was content to trust the preservation of the peace to the
people. Instead of the Government adopting
means whereby they might repose in the
affections and respect of the people, they adopted coercive
and harsh measures. In 1792, Mr. Pitt, who was then in
power, studied economy in the government of the State;
the military cost but 25,000!., and the whole expense of
the Civil Government was limited to 12,0001. or 13,000/.
They had then very few barracks; now there were bar
racks ha almost every town. Last year, for instance,
100,0001. was spent in building barracks at Preston,
because they feared that the people would rise, and the
whole country was covered with barracks— not to
attack our enemies abroad, but to coerce and keep down
the people at home. They had, for instance, twenty
barracks scattered throughout the country, for no other
purpose than the one he had stated. Ile appealed to the
House, then, to protect the commonweal, which would
effect far more than bristling bayonets and pointed
artillery. What was it done for ? From the
fear of reform. He admitted that there were ardent
and wild Reformers, but because there were was no
reason against their taking the claims of the people into
consideration. In 1792 the taxation was 16,000,0001., now
it was 60,000,0001., so that it had been quadrupled. The
debt had been increased from the beginning of the war,
from 230,000,000/. to 800.000,000/. He did not blame
any one, but he declared this lay upon the oligarchy, who
dreaded the spread of democratic principles, which drove
them to a war against France, and brought that enor-
mous burden upon the people, which, unless
some relief was given, must press them down. When
men were well employed and well fed, matters progressed,
and things went on well; but let a change take place,
and then the convulsicn came. Why not, then, take this
opportunity, and prevent such catastrophes by checking
the extravagant expenditure of the State. He appealed
to lion. Gentlemen who represented counties, and par-
ticularly those in the south, where men and their fami-
lies were subsisting upon 7s. and Bs. per week, to join him
in the reform movement. If they were true Conservatives
they would do so at once, for nothing could preserve the
institutions of the country so much as timely concessions
and wise changes.—(Hear.) He regretted that he was not
in the House the other night when the miscellaneous
estimates were under consideration, for then he should
have had an opportunity of attacking the civil list, which
was ore great cause of the enormous increase which had
of late years taken place in the burdens of the country.
The course, however, he was disposed to take upon that
subject was to make an appeal to the Sovereign ;
he would ask the Reuse to address her
Majesty on the subject, and say to her—
" We granted you the civil list, but let us see in what
way it is expended." Let them set an example by
making reductions at the fountain head. In the
extravagant reign of George IV. the civil
list was increased to an enormous amount,
but at his death, and on the succession
of William IV., the matter was referred to a Select
Committee, and the civil list fixed at 385,000/. Now,
he thought it due to her Majesty to state. that out of all
that sum, only 60,0001. was at her own disposal. The re-
maining 325,0001. was spent by the Lord Chancellor, the
Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward, and the Master of
the Horse. No doubt many of the servants of the Palace
were maintained out of it, but he believed many of those
servants were my Lord This and my Lady That, who had
only duties to attend about once in two or three months.
This was not the way to spend the money of the
country ; and therefore, wittiout interfering with
the votes of the foreign or other departments,
in the first instance let them rather address her Majesty
on the subject. Let Chain remind her that this was not
a fit state of things, while the eye, passing along the
unions of England, Scotland, and Ireland, would
find four millions of people in an absolute
state of destitution. In such a state of things
there ought not to be expenditure of 320,0001. in keep-
ing a system of tawdry finery. A more simple style o:
living would better become the Sovereign while
there was so much suffering in the country.—
(Hear.) The other night ho was at the
Lord Mayor's dinner, where he met the ambassador
of Constantinople, and an excellent friend of his who had
been appointed to go to the United States as the repre-
sentative of this country, but he declared he was almost
afraid to speak to them, as he could only do so through
the instrumentality of tawdry-laced footmen.—(A laugh.)
And so it was with the Ministers of State, who never
went out without the attendance of tawdrily dressed
footmen, whose general appearance only served to please
and excite the admiration of children.—(A laugh.)
He did not consider the sum of 60,0001. at the private
disposal of the Queen too mueh, considering the
calls that were made upon her charity—(Hear,
hear) but when he saw how the other
establishments of the Court were kept up, the gold
lace and tinsel that was frittered away from tali.
pockets of the people, be thought the time was
come when they ought to have a House
of Commons who would address her Majesty on the
subject of such useless and wasteful expenditure. Ile
would, therefore, begin at the head, and in saying
that he was sure that her Majesty would be
the first to say that her people ought not to be so un-
necessarily pressed upon, and that she would willingly
yield to the suggestion of the House of Commons. Now,
as a proof of what might be done, if only properly
attempted, he would say, look at Belgium. When mat-
ters were represented in the proper quarter there,
the franchise was extended immediately, and every
public officer reduced his salary one-third towards the
urgency of the State. Look again at the case of the
present King of Wurtemburg, whose father was over
head and ears in debt. When the present King
ascended the throne he reduced his establishments
one-half, and for which he obtained the love and affec-
tion of all -his subjects. He thought the time bad now
come when similar steps should be adopted in England,
and for that purpose he asked that the House of
Commons should be made the real representative of the
people.—(Hear, hear.) Unless they changed the pre-
sent system of the House of Commons, no good could
be done.—(clear, hear.) The present House might
be seized with fits of economy, but they would
not be permanent.—(Hear, hear.) The change of the
system of election was the only way to make things
permanent in this country.—(Hear.) He longed to
see that state of things return to this country which
existed in the time of Elizabeth, who, when asked where
were her troops, answered that her troops were her sub-
jects.—(Hear, hear.) Ho contended that Parliament
did not represent the different communities
that existed in this country, and if Parliament would
only allow him to bring in the Bill, the details
might be settled afterwards. There was a diffi-
culty even among his own friends to find
those that would agree with every measure that he pro-
posed—(Laughter)—but if the House would allow him
to bring in the Bill he would endeavour to modify his
views to meet the wishes of all parties.—(Hear, hear.)
If the people were to have a share in the representation
of the country, they ought to have it effectually. If they
were to do justice to the people they must extend the
overst
iuof fnr, eins
head—th(al It eo auurg,
ohhut es
ea tor.")
haveEveryue aarvoiceh emaar
in thatt
.) But
eu hadtr
e hr hee on ut
ee.
was anxious to extend and bring within the
pale of the Constitution those who ought to have a vote,
he thought they ought to have the opportunity of voting
secretly, namely, by the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) Having
stated what his view of the constitution was, he would
not read the opinions expressed by the Noble Lord below
him (Lord J. Russell), which of late years he seemed to
have thrown to the winds; nor to what fell from El rl Grey ,
when he introduced the Reform Bill; and he would only
say that he was one of those who supported him with
great enthusiasm, and raised the cry, " The Bill, the
whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill."—(Hear.) Al-
though he would not, as he had said, read the Noble
Lord's (Lord John Russell's) speech, be would
just state that the Noble Lord said every man under our
constitution was considered to be represented in the
House of Commons; that ho was considered to have
a share in the election of those who made
laws affecting his life and property, and,
therefore, he recommended a reform, certainly
not to the extent he (Mr. Hume) wished to go; but the
principle argued by the Noble Lord went to show that
what he proposed was right. There was one view in
which ho thought the question ought to be sub-
mitted to the house—viz., that things were not
remaining stationary, and that materials were
being collected which must explode unless some timely
remedy was adopted. The population of the country in
round numbers amounted to about twenty millions; there
were three millions of adults, and yet the number of
electors only amounted to 826.000 ; but of the eight
millions of the people of Ireland there were only
40,000 electors. From the returns of 1836, it appeared
there was only one elector to 5i male adults; and since
then the population had increased, and the relative num-
bers might now be taken at one elector to ten adults.
The increase was not in the agricultural but in the ma-
nufacturing districts, where the people were, from their
intelligence, more capable of exercising the franchise.
In no disturbance that had taken place had the working
classes of this country shown any disposition to plunder
the property of their superiors—they had innumerable
examples to the contraryi aAd would tll 110,160 refuse

to :hone men, what had been given to the
very Lezzaron of Italy ? What did the
ire quality consist in? He had made a comparison be-
tween the great and small constituencies. He had taken
16 boroughs containing a population of 2,917,000, being
one-i elf of the whole borough population of England.
Those 16 boroughs returned 32 Members. He wished
the House to compare them with 23 small boroughs, where
th- re were only 100,000 inhabitants, and yet they
returned as many Members as that immense population
in the former 16 boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) Now, could
any man say that was a fair participation in the elective
franchise, to which all were entitled by the CO".-
stitution?—(Hear, hear.) He asked a fair partici-
pation not as a favour, but as a constitutional right.
Would any man place himself in the situation
of any one of those who were deprived of those rights,
and see how he would act, if be was compelled to re-
main in that situation. What were the consequences
the struggle ? Why the Chartists ; and they even took
alarm.—(Laughter.) Was it not time to put an
end to that state of things. He found there were 85
different' kinds of qualification for the electors of this
country, from potwallopers to ten-pounders. Did net
that lead to enormous expense, trouble, delay, and
;
complexity beyond anything that could be conceived
330 out of the 658 Members of which the Home Wl'
sisted represented 3,127,000, and 328, 23,817,000. The
larger number, or the majority, showed that on the aver'
age each Member represented 9,500 electors, and that each
of the minority represented 73,000 voters. Now th's
was called the people's House. Was any man s°
brazenfaced as to contend that it really was what it wst:
styled?—(Laughter.) The aristocracy had one House e`
their teen, and he saw no reason why they should possess
that House also. Under the present system they, hole
ever, possessed that House also.—(Hear, hear.) Wes it
likely, when they put so many out of their doors'
only admitting one out of every eight, that either
property or the Crown could continue to be
respected? Of what class did those consist of wheel
they excluded. Many of the aristocracy favoured
the establishment of baths, washhouses, 1113
lodging-houses, but he found that they were
the very persons who Would not 'admit the„,"
within the portals of the constitution, and!raise them te,
the social scale. Give them their rights and they 'wale
work out their own redemption. The Lionourable
tlember then referred to a speech delivereaf
by Lord Ashley on the presentation ,°
prizes for essays on the Sabbath, in which 0
much complimented the ability and morality of 03,1
working classes. t that Noble Lord woo
not give the people those rights which would
enable them to accomplish all this for themselves, be:
cause it would enable them to direct and feel an interest
in the welfare of the country, elevating them, therefore,
in the social scale. Having then shown the elective
franchise to be the right of the working classes, the
question came to be in what mode ought the suffrage it°
be extended so as best to reach and be rendered avails'
ble to those classes. On this head many plans wets
issued. Some thought population ought to be the basis
of the suffrage; others that property ought to be 6°.
Some, again, thought that education ought to be the
basis, while others were for household suffrage. Ile 'l,l°
anxious to know how far a suffrage founded on porn!'
Lion would infringe upon the rights of property, ands
found, from a table which had been carefully prePat`i
by gentlemen residing in Leeds and Manchester, the
were property taken as the basis of their representation,
England, Scotland, and Wales would return 553 Melt*
hers to Parliament, and that were population taken they
would return about the same number. To take poptue-
tion as the basis, England would return 455 MemberS,
Scotland 76, and Wales 22,.and to take property as tile
basis, England would return 450 Members, Scotland 71,
and Wales 32.—(Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, the
same thing whether they took population or property
b°
0
the basis, but population being the easiest, he should-
inclined to submit to it. He was aware that many lit
Gentlemen had considerable apprehensions as
manner in which he intended to form electoral - 'lire
tricts, but he had no hesitation in saying that what'
intended to do would not be attended with the least con'
fusion. All he wanted to do was, better to apPertie
those districts, to class different towns together, so al.
they might join in returning a representative or rePro,
sentatives between them, conformably to the populstiej,
That had been already done to ome extent in Scotism'
for the district he represented had five boroughs °rid'
fleeted with it. No difficulty would, therefore, be tout
in doing the same with other places. He considered'
therefore, that there was no ground for doubt or aPPreo
hension on that point, and at the proper time, were 0.
allowed to bring in a Bill on the subject, he would
t1:1
„a
duce a scale in which these districts were minutely e'
carefully arranged, and which, if adopted, would secure
the return of Members to that House in strict preVrtibnoe
to the number of the population. He had beside bile the
bl
actual extent which in France and other countries such
extension had been made without any risk, but they bad
an example in Scotland of how the division of distrlto.
had operated, and these details he would not go leo,.
Having, therefore, shown that it was necessary 10 e,s
tend the franchise, and that to insure the free exere4
of that franchise, the ballot was also necessary, 40
thought the measure would be altogether incorePl_r4
without an equalisaticn of electoral districts, 114'30
,or those reforms he appealed to the justice of ;s0
House. He thought no one could deny the justice o'l3o
reasonable a proposition. He might be asked, asi:ed
Noble Lord at the head of the Government was "Tea
when he introduced a measure to repeal the navigat,..o
laws—, Where are your petitions in favour of suea,
measure ?" In answer the Noble Lord said, and truly
said, that it was the duty of the Minister to propose what
measures he thought proper for the good of the country,
whether there were petitions calling for them or n°
and although he would not exactly give the same answee
yet he would say, that while last year petitions innue! •
cable had been presented to the House in favour oisc
similar motion he then made, men had begun to see tb
r
it was useless to petition a tribunal which paid no ante. 003
tion to them; andetherefore, they bad refrained on
petitioning on this occasion. But he would impress 11,Pint
Government and the House the danger of allowing
feeling to gain strength in the country, and looking too.o.
liament simply as a means by which good (301,,,ht
went could be secured the country, he thto
they were bound to do what they could
cn,
improve that Parliament, and render it
ntri.
sonant with the wishes and feelings of the eell- the
Did, then, that House at present faithfully represent is
country? He said, no. It might represent eerersl
classes and certain interests, but the country in gel% go
it did not represent. Under the old system, pre have
the passing of the Reform Bill, that system rnighl, 0(4
done, but now it would not. Could any man statreelloW
in the present state of things so many of their , 000
countrymen would long quietly remain excluded yesn'
electoral privileges? And it would be wise in- LOthesa
went and that House to yield at once and give
theie
men justice, lest the withholding of it might drive 0,100
to despair. He thought the time had now comefild at
Government, if they could not go all the way, sho7, for.
all (vents thew that they were anxious to go st
Let them show the people that they had an earnieg;,,
be
sire to give the people justice, and with that ja 0
begged to conclude by moving for leave to bring ding
Bill to amend the national representation, by ext,teidere,
the elective franchise so as to include all house the
by enacting that votes shell be taken by ballot; :"`lead,
duration of Parliaments shall not exceed three Yearscierea
that the apportionment of representatives be reo re'
more equal to the population. The Hon. Member
sumed his seat amid considerable cheering. m the
Mr. H. BERKELEY said he begged to secondoc
motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wet So
He was not aware what course Government means.:
take in reference to it, whether they would take ogO
disrespectful course which they took a few nights air
s°
in reference to his motion on the ballot—a colataid
respectful to the constiHttruoelnn.ctioFesrtievehnhediciihwohsuesneht
miluouchsedeafenrdencdeistroeshpiese
this motion, he considered that the queostioan be breug
„, the
before the House the other night (the ballot) lc"-, the
most popular of those questions connected with
pas
reform movement, and that in consequence "„s,
proper it should be brought forward by itself, "iber
carried, it would be the means of having those,eoatt
reforms, which he considered so necessary, carrie.l.tioo
for it must be evident to all that so long as intirril• re'
and corruption were mixed up with their system
ieepse'
idtths eei
r to
el°18: eieb4l:
presentation, so long would the people be that
sented. The ballot had also more adherents in fight
House than any other reform measure, for it f ibis!
be said that not fewer than 150 Members of ht
House were its warm supporters. He still t',uw te'o'
therefore, that the Noble Lord at the head 6f the re;
vernment might have met that question in a WC)-r
spectful maneer than he had done. But whether e 0 the
the Noble Lord would follow a similar course 2 GO'
present instance, there were other members of the
honest vote
to
vernment, who he thought were bound in hente"eots
their constituents to come forward and explain t'l,o for
they had given oa his motion, or rather to spologeo
the
it. He thought it became the Right Hon. Baron dor'
Secretary fur the Home Department for one t
that course. That Right Hon. Baronet had voted
be be
on one occasion and black upon another; and vibe°
not condescended to explain why he vote black 1841
ho ought to have voted white.—(Laughter.) -1.2/
the Right Hon. Baronet gave his support to t"'oterS
tection of Voters Bill, in 1849 he considers that hifei l°
require no protection.—(Hear, hear.) He askeu,, 049:
explain what had happened between 1842 am'sure
which had caused the necessity for such a mea Or?'
disappear? Would he tell them that the people 18,0:
less to be depended on in 1849 than they were 'l?etliti;
—(Hear, bear.) If he did so, it would be base /1-ruat
tude on his part, for no man had better 01)40
of seeing the fidelity and honesty of the people I'w :bat
Right lion. Baronet had bad, arid he could tell (10;
had it not been for that fidelity and that honest'', 7toea"
ties of the Secretary of State for the Home der' thela
would have been more arduous during 1848 th.bri
had been. But there were others upon wbeinthefee
also a right to call for explanation, and among the` cent'
the Master of the Mint.---(Laughter.) He wet
tlepsit
lected the effect the speech of the Right Hon. ue° sis
in reference to the ballot in 1842 had upon 11-11:°•ds tbs
earnest and impressive reasonisig, urged in woe
vetting
burn, depicted the system in its most clear and
..ve, got
form; but that Right lion. Gentleman having 1 pyierl
seat on Treasury Bench, contents himself withs of sec)
that he does not think the people are so desirous
a measure now as they were then.—(Hear, and,loo, Gu,
He must say that, by acting as they had '4,0 sun"
vernment had lost all the confidence theirui.ord,
porters reposed in them. And now the Noblew,se prloo,,
stead of looking for support to that quarter
no,`". IQ:
ciples gave him the best claim to do so, hadc!.a?, was !:
to the R ght Hon. Baronet opposite, and the
vt_fhiby
ro
could depend upon no support except that gt Tings /2%
the Tories.—(Hear, bear.) Such a state o.l,red
conceived to be deplorable. He was hinssept_re:l; ,fent‘L
that House not in any way connected w_l,7*he'r, SOL'.
Corn-law League, but, as an independent Do. "'"%eg him
right, 1444 oppose yaiOri he
ing to support the Noble Lordhwt hhenbalaweicogi 51;tot

measures which the Honourable Member for
Montrose advocated, they would net be led
to physical revolution. But as France had
been alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (Sir G. Grey), ho would ask him was France ever
more tranquil than at present, or was there ever less
probability that that people would be led by demagogues
for the accomplishment of new principles, than at pre-
sent? He perfectly coincided with the arguments of the
Hon. Member for Montrose, because he believed his mo
tion was a step in the right direction for the good of the
country, yet ho would have wished that he included two
other important principle—namely, no property qualifi-
cation and the payment of Members. Reference had
been made to America, but there, as well as in France,
the members are paid, and when he saw the Right Hon.
and Hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Benches, who re-
spectively received their stipend, and who so pertinaci-
ously adhered to their office because they were paid, he
would ask, why should not Members be paid ? lie
should next say that the arguments advanced by the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Sir G. Grey), taken
from the speech of the Honourable and Learned Mem
ber for Reading (Mr. Sergeant Talfourd) was rather for
a greater extension of the suffrage than for depreciating
it, as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman did
not stop at household suffrage, but extended to the
tent of the gipsy. He recollected that the Noble Lord
(Lord John. Russell) had stated at Bristol that the non-
electors should have a public influence over the electors
in the right of their vote, and in that sentiment he per-
fectly agreed with the Noble Lord. But now that
money is exerting its influence as much as then, he
thought the Noble Lord should take a retrograde move .
went. The Right Hon. Bsronet (Sir George Grey) had
attacked the lion. Member for Montrose as not having
any petitions to support his motion, but he (Mr. F.
O'Connor) had determined that the Ministers should no
longer have that as a handle or an obstacle to so itnpor
tant a measure, for ho would have petitions from every
district throughout England for that motion, and show
them what he himself believed, that the Emancipation
Act, the Reform Bill, and the free trade measures, were
mere juggles, and that only for the working classes
the Ministry could never carry those measures. Yes,
he would appeal to men—the Chartists, who were
never guilty of ieceudiarism—men who never burned
Bristol or Nottingham Castles—men who never took
about in derision the portrait of their King, and men
who were opposed to revolution; and he believed that
they and the rest of the English people would send peti
tions to that House from their respective localities—not
a monster petition, to be subjected to a Petition Com-
mittee, but those for which they would severally avouch.
He would, therefore, support the motion, as he believed
it to be an instalment of the people's rights.
Colonel THOMPSON said that he was ready to ad-
mit that this proposal bad not been brought forward in
altogether the most happy and fortunate manner. It
did not appear to him that the course of proceeding
adopted was calculated to bring over to their side any
great amount of Ministerial support, and he should be
highly gratified if, upon further consideration, some
sign could be given that those men who were in truth
the representatives of the authors of one of the brightest.
because the most successful, revolution that ever took
place in the history of the world, were prepared to make
some concession to what was manifestly the spirit of the
age, and to take that lead which they should take in
advancing the interests of this country along with those
of Europe in general. There was nut one-fourth part
of the population of this country who did not believe
that England was seriously interested in the general
success of liberal principles throughout Europe.—(Hear.)
It was said it was sorrowful to see that those whom
Heaven and nature had marked out as the leaders of this
great movement, should not be found endeavouring to
secure placing themselves at the head of the adoption of
those liberal principles which were called for throughout
the country, and ho earnestly hoped that they would not
be much longer found standing still in the great onward
movement.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAMPBELL said that he availed himself of the
present opportunity to make a few remarks. He thought
it must present itself to any mind of ordinary sagacity,
that this subject was intimately connected with that
which usually presented itself under the form of Char
Siam. Was the object of this reform to precipitate the
adoption of the Charter? The first task incumbent upon
them was to identify this proposition with that of the
Hon. Member for Nottingham, which was not the less
in view, because of late much had not been heard of it.
In fact he might say of its supporters, that dam tacent
clement. There was no shutting their eyes against the
fact, that the government of the majority would be the
government of the British empire; but he was willing
to make an argumentative concession of the ques.
tion. All that he wished the supporters of the
motion to concede was this, that if even this proposi-
tion was calculated to benefit the country, at least, it
was a proposition which could not be translated into
law, which could not be adopted by the Legislature with-
out a long period of agitation and discussion. It amounted,
in short, to nothing else than the transfer of power from
one class to another, and such a change should be cautious
and slow. Whatever energy now belonged to the House
of Commons, and whatever wisdom belonged to its lead-
ing Statesmen, should be devoted undividedly to the
state of Ireland, which was demanded imperatively at
their hands. It was only necessary to refer to the vast
amount of literature, which embraced this subject, in
order at once to be convinced of this; the opinion alone
of the late Mr. O'Connell were sufficient to establish
the ground he had taken up. He would submit to Irish
Members that it behoved them all most seriously to
beware how they became parties to any motion by which
the energy of Parliament might be shaken, or its virtue
jeopardised. The Right lion. Baronet had proposed
a scheme for the regeneration of Ireland replete with
wisdom and prudence, and in that vast question there
was a field for their labours which might far more
profitably be directed to it, than employed in can-
vassing a subj, ct, and in endeavouring to accomplish
it, the very tendency of which was to shake the existing
order of things, and to leave questions of great moment
in a state of greater uncertainty than attached to them
at present. In saying that much he was confident 01
having the feeling of a large majority of the people of
the country with him, and persuaded, as he was, of its
truth, he was most anxi, us that a more able debater
than himself should take it up, and lay them before Par-
liament in the proper light. He had not even heard the
shadow of an anticipation of the nature of the objec-
tions that could be urged against it. In another con-
jecture than that which at present obtained, he con-
ceived that it might be proper, and even advantageous,
to inquire into the practicability of great constitutional
changes. But whilst they had:great questions to settle—
whilst they had great practical evils to redress—whilst
they had great wants to supply—he would contend, and
that, indeed, was the full extent of his argument, that an
examination of the operation of the Reform Bill was too
wide a question to be prosecuted with any prospect
either of success or utility. The Honourable Member
for Montrose, however, and his political partisans upon
this question, not only challenged this question, but he
came forward the avowed champion of democracy, eon-
tending broadly that all men were alike entitled to the pri-
vilege of exercising the Parliamenrary franchise. For his
own part, he thought it would not be difficult to esta-
blish a complete defence of the Reform Bill in its prin-
ciple, details, and results; and an inquiry for that pur-
pose ought, in his opinion, to be a complete answer to
the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The
principle of the Reform Bill was, that the best form of
Government was the representative assembly elected by
the middling classes of the community. That principle
was propounded 2,000 years ago by the greatest master
of political philosophy. It had on many occasions re-
ceived the sanction of men of learning and ability, but
had never, as he believed, been applied to the case of
actual practice, until the Reform Bill was introduced. It
was unreasonable to suppose that the lower classes could
ever be sufficiently informed upon public affairs, to act
with general wisdom as a body in returning Members of
Parliament; and he need only refer to the events of the
memorable 10th of April, for an example of the animus
which must be taken to inspire the lower classes in a
great political movement. But if the Reform Bill had
not occasioned a complete representation of the middle
classes, he would put it to the House whether that signal
defect in it would not have formed a widely-spread topic
of discussion at the general eleciion of 1847, and at the
large public meetings held all over the country, by which
it was preceded. Oa a question of this sort, however
desirable it might be on other occasions, rigid demon-
stration was not, perhaps, the best mode of attaining
the object in view, neither was it, perhaps, altogether
attainable. Still he was quite prepared, wore he called
upon to do so, to investigate the principles of the two
Charters, with as much scrutinising penetration as could
be wished for by its warmest advocate. The Charter
proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose was of a
nature that would prove dangerous to the best interests
of society; it was of too extensive a character, and
ought to be listened to with great caution by the House.
Ele could not but refer the House to the disorders and
disturbances that had recently taken place in several
European countries, as showing that they had not in
those countries a sound middle class, the great safeguard
against such disturbances. The House should there-
fore take care that it did not lightly listen to the propo-
sition of the Hon. Member for Montrose. If they
meant that the system of government which they now
enjoyed ought, under no circumstances, to be changed for
the Charter of the people, then he should say that he
was for the finality of the Reform Bill, which implied a
Government of the middle classes—the safest and only
secure mode of government they could have. He trusted
the House would bear with him for trespassing so long
upon its indulgence.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
much longer trespass on its patience, but before he re-
sumed his seat he would implore the House, in the name
of their institutions, in the name of the middle classes,
in the name of order, and of everything which they
valued, not to give its assent to the proposition of the
Honourable Member for Montrose. The House of
Commons would, he trusted, consult its own dignity, and
not be led away from its interests and those of the
country by any such propositions. Since the proposition
was nothing short of an !impeachment of the present
House of Commons, since it invited them to subvert their
institutions; and since the character and objects of the
People's Charter were not of a nature to promote the
welfare or stability of those institutions, be must oppose
the proposition of the Hon. Member, and in the name
of freedom, in the name of rational liberty, in the name
of all that was dear to the country, ho implored the
House to oppose it.
Mr. L. KING doubted very much that the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down represented the
opinions of the inhabitants of the borough of Cam-
bridge, for if he did, they must have become very much
changed indeed.—(Hear, hear.) The motion of the
lion. Member for Montrose was now regularly, and he
regretted to say, necessarily, an annual one—one which
the safety of the country required, and he believed that
there was no one more calculated to carry out its princi-
ples than the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
(Lord John Russell), by whom the Reform Bill was in-
troduced.—(Hear, herr.) If in the great revolutionary
year which they had recently gone through their country

would now tell the Noble Lord that the people were
more inclined to have the Right Hon. Baronet in office
than him. With these observations he would conclude,
by seconding the motion, in the assurance that, although
there might be a m ijority of votes against it in that
House, there was an overwhelming majority in its favour
out of doors, and which he had no doubt would soon be
made to tell within.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had no reason to be surprised at the
course Government had taken on a late occasion, for he
Must be aware that this motion, or one to a similar ef-
fect, and which included the reform to which the Hon.
Member had alluded, underwent an able and elaborate
discussion in that House for two nights during last ses-
sion, and that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment did then fully argue the question, and that the
arguments he addressed to the House, and the opinions
he then expressed, were sanctioned and adhered to by a
large majority of that House on a division taking place.
--(Hear, hear.) IF, therefore, the Noble Lord on this
occasion should not address the House, no one could be
mistaken as to his opinions regarding the question
before it, these having been so fully expressed on the
occasion alluded to.—(Hear, hear.) There were, how-
ever, it was true, different eircumstances this 3 ear
connected- with the question.—(Hear, hear.) The lion.
Member for Montrose had alluded to some of these, and
had stated that while this year there were no petitions
in favour of his motion, last year there were large
numbers, although he (Sir G. Grey) could not help ob
serving that the greater proportion of those were in
favour of the six points of the Charter, and not of the
Ilon. Gentleman's plan. They were, however, some-
What differently circumstanced, from last year, inasmuch
as they had had twelve months' experience in other
countries of something of the system the Hon. Gentle-
man sought to introduce, and he could readily afford to
Join jest's) with him on the internal state and condition of
this country, as contrasted with the state and condition
of those countries on the Continent, which he seemed so
anxious to adopt as his model.—(Loud cheers.) He
was not going to say a word in disparagement of those
countries who were endeavouring to obtain their ancient
rights, and the establishment of that liberty which may,
Perhaps, have been too long withheld from them ; but
when the Honourable Gentleman tells this House to
look at them, and to imitate them in the system
they were carrying on, then he answered that his
first and most cherished feeling was one of
unfeigned thankfulness that he lived under a constitte
tion, the strength of which had been tested at differs
times, and under most terrible circumstances, but which
had still stood the test of all assailants, and the value of
which was felt and appreciated by the great body of the
People.—(Loud cheers.) The Hun. Gentleman bad said
that a large military force was kept up in this.country for
the maintenance of internal peace, and that they ought
to have no military establishment other than that re-
quired for the protection of their colonies and for ex-
ternal defence. God grant that the time might come
when it might be the case, when they would require no
such force as alluded to, when no military would be
required for the internal government of the country, or
for the prevention of foreign aggression, and that the
period would come when they might turn their spears
into pruning-hooks, and their swords into ploughshares,
and when they should learn the art of war no more—(A
laugh)—but when the Hon. Gentleman said that those
constitutions on the continent led to those revolutions
which had taken place there, he was ready to join issue
with him again, and to ask him whether he would be will-
in to accept universal suffrage with the accompaniments
of armed force which was to be seen in Paris, together
With the other agencies, which during the last year had
been at work in France.—(Cheers.) Under the existing
state of things, the lion. Gentleman must know, that
there was an overwhelming force of troops in France,
and although it might not be important to allude to
America, yet he found that even there it had been found
necessary at New York to call out a body of armed
troops, for the purpose of clearing the streets of an as
!'enthlage of riotous persons, and who had not succeeded
in doing so until they were obliged to fire upon the
mob, and several persons had been killed.—(Loud
cheers.) Thus, even in America military were re-
required to preserve order.
Mr. HUME.—They were not armed troops.
Mr. COBDEN,—There is not an armed soldier in
New York.
Sir G. GREY.—There waean armed force called out,
they were ordered to fire upon the people, and several
Individuals had died of gun-shot wounds, which was a
aura proof that they were an armed force of some kind
Or other.--(Hear hear, and cheers.) With regard to
What took place 'last year, there were several stations
where
military were placed, in consequence of
theL small number of police in the districts
where the stations were situated; but no attempt had
ever been made to overawe the people by a military
force. He should, however, like to know, were the
_Noe. Gentleman allowed to bring in his Bill, how he
would act with regard to the framing of the extension
clauses of it. The* was the motion, .Isio. 4, on the paper
Nottingham
that day, given notice of by the Bon. Member for
'Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor), and which was for the
enactment of two additional points to that proposed by
the Hon. Member. How would be do with these? It
was desirable to have a definite plan before them before
fore were called upon to agree to the motion, and there-
lore the necessity for explanation on that point. It was
not at all reasonable to cause them to give up the consti-
tution they were living under, without having some
information as to what sort of one, they were to get in
exchange, or having some knowledge of whither such a
Step would lead them.—(tlear, hear.) At most of the
meetings held on the subject of the Hon. Gentleman's
motion, there was invariably a difference of opinion es
to how far they should go, but in most instances they
:went farther than the Honourable Gentleman. With
regard to Lord Ashley's having given prizes at Exeter
Hall to the working classes of the comuiur.ity for the
beet written essays, he was glad to find that no Hon.
Me imber had indulged in any disrespect, ul remarks against
that Noble Lord; and if the Hon. Member for Montrose
(Mr. Hume) thought that the right of suff-age was due
to those who excelled in those essays which were indi-
cative of sound reason, of intelligence, and of religion.
he (Sir George Grey) begged to remind him (Mr. Hume)
that women were the best essayists on that occasion, and
that Lord Ashley particularly complimented them.—
(Laughter.) And, therefore, if a necessary inference
were to be drawn, it was that the women• should obtain
the right of universal suffrage as well as the male adults.
—(Laughter.) He did not mean to say that a finality
system should be established, because those principles, or
Some of them, then, advocated by the two Hon. Members
(Messrs. F. O'Connor and Hume) might be requisite at
some future time, He thought that it would be well to
make those alterations which reason and judgment sug•
gested, but he did not at all consent to give up the pri
vil,eges and the blessings which the country at present
enJoyed, as the Hoe. Member (Mr. Hume) seemed
'!,3 wish to do.—(tlear, hear.) It was difficult to
know from the two Hon. Members what was to be the
limitation of the suffrage, for the Hon. Member for
Montrose says he is for having as a standard the popu-
lation, taxation, and education of the country, and also
that the appointment of representatives be rendered
more equal to the population. In fact, on that point, he
11_1r no difference between the two Hon. Members (Mr.
utue and Mr. F. O'Connor); but in this point they
differed, because the Hon. Member for Montrose was
n
itP°Bed to equal electoral divisions, while the Hon.
ember for Nottingham acted consistently in supporting
equal electoral divisions; for if he (Mr. Hume) stopped
short of his (Mr. F. O'Connor's) idea on that subject,
he (Sir George Grey) would ask him (Mr. Hume) what
adrivgiusznens.t he had or could adduce against equal electoral
His (Sir George Grey's) opinion was that
Such a system could not be maintained, because it would
t
°tally upset the whole system of representation as it at
present existed ; but should say that he would
leave these two Honourable Gentlemen to settle the
degree of equality or inequality.—(Hear.) Arrange-
mentof these two points he feared would involve the
Legislature
in inextricable difficulties, and would there-
fore for the present prefer that that subject were
waived.—(Hear.) There were two more parts of the
Honourable Member for Montrose's motion, to which he
meant to allude—the vote by ballot, and triennial Par-
liament,. With respect to the vote by ballot, the lion.
Member (sr. H. Berkeley) spoke with soreness on the
manner in which his motion on that subject bad been
treated, but he (Sir George Grey) should say that after
seven years, since that measure had been introduced in
the House, he did not think it necessary or expedient to
follow him on the late occasion, for at the
former period the motion was defeated by a
very large majority of the House. Ile (Mr.
Berkeley) thought that he should give an apology, be-
Cease in 1842 he (Sir G. Grey) voted for this measure,
and in 1849 he voted against it, or in other words used
by him (Mr. Berkeley) he had voted white one day,
and on another day voted black. But to that be
should reply, that it was not necessary to retain one's
?pinion always on any ono point, for at the time he voted
in favour of the measure he saw that the influence of
the great masses of the country was directed in its
favour, which was not the case at present, and he should
add that he had stated at that time that he was very re-
luctant in giving his vote for the motion. Since then, it
should be recollected, that a great change had taken
Place with respect to intimidations as elections, caused
oy the influence of public opinion. He felt it his bounden
duty,e on reflecting on the speeches of many Hon.
,animbers, and particularly the Hon. Member for Oldham
(Mr. Fox) on that subject, to alter his opinion; and that
me the prior occasion, when be voted fur it, it was as a
member of the Government, and not as a member of the
-11.a_hinet. With respect to Triennial Parliaments, the
"`"•o_°llse would have an opportunity of giving their opinion
the second reading of that Bill; and he therefore
sheuld
not enter into any detail on that matter, as he
thought that the greater number of Members present
zeined to have no anxiety on that subject. The Hon.
Member
for Montrose said, in the end of his speech,
that th;
in House does not represent the interests and feel
that s of the country; but to that assertion he should reply
„„according to the present constitution of Ferny-
"“coe.nt, it did represent the interests and feelings of the
c„ntrY fairly and adequately; for he had seen the
their"l-t m
i ns of the people fully expressed in that House, and
interests promoted by the carrying of great mea-
sures through the just influence of their honest feelings.
by whiesidered the people were the sole and only means
Parliaree_great popular measures were cartied through
very n,
to those b
much to
and that the present motion would tend
to embarrass, and create considerable danger
Mr. F. 0
beneficial measures.—(Hear, hear.)
meal_ CONNOR said that he did net intend to
br,,_e `• on that motion, but for the allusions made to him
Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey). And
farces, he had treatel the House with tragedies and
faL4ces,such as the French tragedy and the American
he seemed to have forgotten that the circum-
titan
Fes that led to the French revolution were the re•
fusel of those very rights which the people of England
were
becausenow contending for, and were better able to enjoy,
u
reyotton ti" people of France were so constituted that
was to be expected, for if they, the people of
France, had the right of suffrage and the other

was not shaken, it was, he believed, because they were
in advance, in the freedom of their institutions, of the
people of those countries over which the revolutionary
movement Swept. But if they wished to secure their in-
stitutions, and to render them of the value which they
ought to be to the country, tle,y would adopt the
proposition of the Honourable Member for Montrose,
and not suffer themselves to fall into the rear of other
countries, now struggling for increased freedom. He
warned them, if they neglected their opportunity, that
they might regret it. He warned the House that ano-
ther Reform Bill was necessary—(Hear, hear)—that
there would be danger in delay, and that it would not be
wise in them not to listen to the voice of the people. He
could state to the House, in proof of the necessity of
reform, that while Reigate, with a population of little
more than 5,000, returned one Member to Parliament,
and while Guildford, with a population of little more
than 6,000 returned two, making between them three
Members, Croydon, with a population more than double
that of both those places, did not send a Member, and
was not at all represented in that House. Now, with all
respect for the 101. householders of Reigate, and with all
respect for the 101. householders of Guildford, he thought
that the people of Croydon, forming a much larger po-
pulation, and not less intellectual, were quite as worthy
of being represented, and that a system which did not
admit of their being represented, and which was so
glaringly defective, required reconstruction. The people
were dissatisfied, and they felt that injustice had
been done to them in being denied the right of free
citizens.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NE WDEGATE said the Hon. Member for
East Surrey (Mr. King) went far enough for the Mem-
ber for the West Riding, though much too far for the
Hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Campbell) who had
justly complained tOt the time of the House was lost in
discussing the motion, an opinion in which he (Mr. New-
degate) agreed, for the motion had somewhat the appear-
ance of a useless formality, for the Hon. Member for
Montrose could hardly conceal from himself that, though
he proposed to the House to undertake the re-construc-
tion of the constituency of the country, the Hon. Mem-
ber had already undertaken it in the association which
met at St. James's-square, of which the Hon. Member
for Bolton was president. They had, in fact, a Reform
Bill going on out of the House, As tar as the mere en-
franchisement of the freeholders went, he (Mr. Newde.
gate) had very little to say; but those who worked
that point were the members of the late Anti Corn law
League—namely, the Honourable Member for the
West Riding, the Honourable Member fur Manchester,
the Honourable Member for Bolton, and Mr George
Wilson. By calling the attention of the House
to the difference of tactics in respect of the
two systems, an understanding might be arrived at of
the motives of this body. In the year 1845 these gen-
tlemen objected to the constituency of Warwickshire in
the registration courts; 17,000 objections were made to
his (Mr. N.'s) portion of the constituency in those days;
23,000 objections were made in all. These objections
were supported by legal astuteness, and by an unscrupu-
lous use of the means at the command of those who
made them. Their failure in North Warwickshire, he
believed, disheartened them; out of 700 objections made
to one parish, 12 alone were sustained, and the re
mainder were withdrawn. This induced the adoption of
another system, which originated in Manchester; and
from 90,000/. to 98,0001. passed through ono office, that
of Messrs. Sale and Worthington, for the purchase of
freeholds in the west riding of Yorkshire and
Cheshire. Twenty-seven persons were thus intruded on
the representation of the west riding alone, who had
nothing whatever to do with the county. The
result of this system was stated by Mr. George
Wilson, who said that the total of the county con-
stituencies of England was 445,630, of which 143,731
had been attacked—namely, one-third of the whole.
Mr. Wilson said then the labours of the past year were,
he was persuaded, only the beginning of another order
of things. It was, therefore, a serious matter to fled
that these operations, commenced by the Anti-Corn law
League, were renewedly avowed by the same gentleman.
The Hon. Member for Manchester had stated that not
only the counties, but the boroughs were to be dealt with
in a similar manner. The system of corrupting the
constituencies now practised was far worse than the old
rotten-borough system. There was a danger in import-
ing strangers into the constituencies, because the House
might interfere; so the system now was to facilitate the
purchase of freeholds for the purpose of qualifying to
vote. The purchaser, who was in debt to the society
for the instalments of his purchase, passed a bond—a
personal security, not a mortgage, as that would dis-
qualify his vote. Until he paid up these instalments he
was at the mercy of his securities, who might recal the
money lent at any time in case of a contrary vote. It
was true the purchaser might mortgage the freehold to
repay the advances; but that would deprive him of his
vote. Therefore his vote was for them, or it was no
vote at all.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member
for Montrose desired a change in the electoral
divisions. This would include certain classes, and
create a constituency perfectly corruptible. With
respect to the vote by ballot, he (Mr. Newdegate)
did not consider it any protection, while, on the
contrary, he looked upon it as completely open to fraud.
He was in America when the election of President took
place, and for all the check placed on surreptitious voting
by the ballot, he might have polled for that high func-
tionary if he had chosen. He (Mr. Newdegate) did not
think that the country had any confidence in the motion
of the Hon. Member for Montrose, and he certainly
should give it his decided opposition.
Mr. BRIGHT corrected the Hon. Member's mistake,
when he attributed the new mode of enfranchising the
people to Manchester. It was devised in Birmingham
by Mr. James Taylor, and the Anti-Corn law League
bud nothing to do with it. It was,'however, in his opinion,
a most fortunate discovery for the country at large, as
by its means numbers of persons would be brought
within the pale of the constitution. Of this he (Mi.
Bright) was quite satisfied, as a result of that discovery,
,hat the Hon. Member and his colleague would not re•
present the constituency of Warwick in another Parlia
ment unless there was a great change in their opinions.
The question before the House was one of the greatest
importance. The whole of Europe was abandoning the
old system of despotic government for a new one of re-
sponsibility. The proposition of the Hon. Member for
Montrose was one recognised by the theory of the con-
stitution. It was, that the common people of England
had as sole a right in that House as the other branches
of the constitution. By Act of Parliament, however,
five out of the six of the full grown men of this kingdom
were excluded from all direct exercise of political
power, and, as far as the middle classes were concerned,
other arrangements rendered the representation, to a
large extent, a sham. He (Mr. B.) denied that the Re-
form Bill was a middle-class Bill; if it was, would the
votes of the Members for Manchester be neutralised by
thoz-e of' the Members for Stamford, who were returned
by the Marquis of Exeter. When he asked that they
should be admitted, the answer would be that they were
too ignorant to exercise the franchise judiciously, or
that they were so vicious, many of them, as to be likely
to turn their political power to purposes that would be
destructive to the interests of the country. Now he (Mr.
Bright) Was not one of those who believed that it re-
quired much school learning to choose a Member of Par-
liament, but if be were, the posiiion certainly acquired
no confirmation from what they had seen in the repre-
sentatives of the Universities who sat in that Reuse.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was himself
obliged to leave one of those Universities because he de-
termined to adopt the course which he deemed to be ne-
cessary, and which every day of his life since he had
found reason to know was absolutely neces-
sary; and the Right Honourable Gentleman who now
represented the University of Cambridge (Mr. Gout-
burn) was supposed to sit in a most precarious posi-
tion—(A laugh)—not because ho had neglected his duty
here, but because he had endeavoure6 to banish from his
mind those prejudices and antiquitated notions which
lingered longest in our scholastic institutions, and had
opened his mind to the consideration of those questions
which the pressing necessities of the country demanded
should be listened to in this House.—(Hear, hear.) The
working classes had made great progress of late years,
and there was abundant proof of it on every hand, in the
circulation of newspapers ably written and most moral
in their tone amongst them, and in the efforts they were
making, especially in the north of England, to educate
their children, and as adults to educate themselves.—
(Cheers.) There could be no doubt whatever but the
artizan of this country in the year 1849 was even a
different being from the artizan of the year 1832—(Hear)
—and even at that time his help was not disdained by
the Noble Lord and Right Hon. Gentlemen, who called
upon him to assemble and petition Parliament for the
passing of the Reform Bill. Ho was quite satisfied that
every class of the population was growing in intelligence
and in the knowledge of those things which were most
useful to enable a man to perform his social and political
duties aright. But would it be said that the working
classes were so vicious that. they ought not to be ad-
mitted? No, there was not a man in that House who
would venture to libel his countrymen by iterating such
a statement.—(Cheers.) They had no designs against
the monarchy or the constitution ; their only designs
were against the system which placed a ban upon them,
and in spite of their intelligence, their progress in the
arts, their industry, and ingenuity, they still shut them
out from a participation in those rights and privileges
which the citizens of a free country might be expected
to claim. If they had the franchise confided to them,
he believed that, except in particular cases of irritation
or passion, they would look about in their own neigh-
bourhood for that man to represent them whom they
regarded as the most intelligent, virtuous, honest, be-
nevolent, and useful; for that was the course which
they now •:adopted in their municipal and parish elections,
where the franchise was most extended, and at the
same time least within the operation of any undue
or improper influence.—( [leer, hear.) The Noble
Lord at the head of the Govercment said last year
' that the present system worked well, and enumerated
the various excellent measures which had been
passed since the enactment of the Reform Bill. He (Mr.
Bright) did not deny that the Reform Bill was a great
advance. Under these circumstances it was a good and
valuable measure; but such au argument as that was as
good against the Reform Bill of the Noble Lord as it
was against the present motion ; for the boroughrnon-
goring Parliament had carried the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, the Catholic Relief Bill ; and, lastly,
the Reform Bill itself—and he did not know whether,
according to the Noble Lord's argument, this was not a
conclusive fact that even the Reform Bill was unneces-
sary. Did not the Noble Lord know that all the pro-
gress which had been made was a progress in accordance
with the democratic element in the constitution, and not
at all a progress in the contrary direction ? Sir Robert
Peel passed the Catholic Emancipation Act; afterwards
the Noble Lord passed the Parliamentary Reform Bill,
the Municipal Reform Bill, and the Bill for the abolition
of slavery; and then Sir R. Peel passed great changes in
the tariff and the repeal of the corn-laws. But how were
these measures carried? Twice civil war was threatened.
An illustrious; member of the Right lion. Baronet's Go-
vernmentdeolared,in 1829, that the alternative was Catho-
it was not a very wise
• lie enmacipation or civil war. Well,

constitution which allowed things to come to that pass
without providing a remedy. The Noble Lord carried
the Reforms Bill, and to enable him to do so, the con
stitution was helped on by briek-ba's, and the carriages
of Noble Lords and El n. Gentlemen, who opposed that
Bill, were smashed over and over again in the towns and
villages of the country. Well, he could not think that
constitution to be the best which required such acts as
these to give it a fillip.—(Hear, hear.) When slavery
was abolished, it was notorious that an insurrection of
the slaves in the colonies was deemed to be improbable.
And Sir Robert Peel could not make an alteration in
the corn-law until a famine occurred in Ireland, and thus
removed all pretence for continuing that law. Upon the
subject of the public expenditure, this House legislated
as if there were no British nation, and tax paying was
unknown within the limits of the United Kingdoms but
if we had a House of Commons that fairly represented
the people, there would be no one question so carefully
and constantly discussed in this House as that of the di-
minution of the taxation which now pressed so heavily
upon the people. Again, he would take upon himself to
say that the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet had
both been aware for years that the laws, with regard to
land in Ireland, were in a most defective and mischievous
state.—(Hear, hear.) He (11r. Bright) had not spoken
upon any Irish questions during the last three or four
years without mentioning that question ; but it was not
until 500,000 of the subjects of the Queen had been laid
tinder ground by famine that the Minister dared to pro-
pose the measures which he had brought forward this
year. Now, he (Mr. Bright) must say, that he had no
respect for a constitution, or a system of Parliamentary
representation, which required aids like those to keep it
in motion. But the system, if it did not work well in
this House, worked quite as badly out of doors. From
1836 there had been an incessant movement in all parts
of Great Britain in favour of an extension of the suffrage;
and out of it had sprung Chartism—which had proved
frightful because, during its discussion, passions had been
stirred up and false principles often inculcated, and ani-
mosities engenders d. There was no doubt of the fact
that a wide-spread discontent prevailed in the country,
amongst a large, intelligent, and it might be a
powerful class in the country, and a hatred
of the law which men sitting in that House ought
to be the last to encourage and maintain.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord on a former occasion said that reform
was not wanted by those out of doors. The Noble Lord
referred to the comparative absence of petitions on the
subject. He admitted the fact that the petitions were
fewer than usual, but the reason was to be found in the
cause that operated to prevent the corn-law abolitionists
from petitioning the House of Lords. They felt that
the Lords had made up their minds on the subject, and
that the only argument they would be likely to listen to
was the argument of 1846, which was applied, and for-
tunately listened to.—(Hear, and cheers.) The Hon.
Member for Warwickshire had given an excellent ad-
vertisement to the scheme for creating votes. He would
tell the House that the plan was progressing rapidly ;
many towns had come into the plan. The plan was de-
scribed as a conspiracy by the Hon. Member for War-
wickshire, who said, according to the true interpretation
of the constitution, such votes ought not to be created.
Now, in reply to that, he would quote the opening of
Lord Chief Justice Tindal, who, though opposed to his
party in politics, was too upright a judge to allow
that circumstance to bias his decision, Lord Chief
Justice Tindal said, "the object of increasing the number
of freeholds, so as to confer votes, was not against law,
morality, or sound policy. It was one of the essential
objects of the Reform Act, to enlarge the number of per-
sons who enjoyed the elective franchise."—(Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. Bright) was of opinion that it was to be ap-
proved of, for a man to put by money to get a vote with.
But he would advise Honourable Members and the Go-
vernment there was one circumstance not altogether o;
a favourable character connected with this new plan, and
which he wished could be avoided. The men who came
forward to purchase these votes did so under a strong
and intractable conviction that they were buying a right
from which they had been unjustly shut out.—(Hear.)
When those men came within the pale of the constitution
in sufficient numbers to speak out, it might be they
would prove themselves the victors, you the vanquished.
—(Hear, hear.) It was better, therefore, to give these
men their rights before exasperation or irritation had
imbued their minds with dislike to the institutions of
this country.—(Bear, hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord
would not make poverty a reason for excluding persons
from the pale of the constitution.—(Hear.) There
were 30,000,000 of people, with 6,000,000 of adults,
and only 1,000,000 of electors; 5,000,000 of men, not
slaves—not ignorant of the principles of government.
and that government affected their material condition—
not below that House in information on important sub
jects—those 5,000,000 had asked year after year in vain
for their rights. They stood about the hustings longing
in their inmost hearts to be admitted to those elective
rights which the constitution intended they should have
He had shown the House that the constitution was in-
capable of governing the country before very great
changes were made. The Noble Lord said the peopl•
of the country had great influence in that House. H,
denied it. The titled classes alone had influence.—
(Cheers.) Look at the Cabinets. If there was anything
invariably ariaab
lithe
yn
be
e c
hconstitutionoonf
one
olaCabinetsas.
Tthhe y
eo
o tis
ti wouldtu
tni
nett
of that House was aristocratic, not popular. Of tht
fourteen members of the Cabinet seven were peers
Lords Russell and Palmerston were not peers, but Le
the same class. There were four baronets, and one no
a baronet. These baronets were all connected with peers
by blood or marriage.—(Hear.) Some day the Hoes,
would find out that the people considered this wai wrong;
As the present system existed it was impossible tt
have a Cabinet so composed as that the interest, of five-
sixths of the unrepresented should be regarded or
attended to. A change, however, would not take place
until the danger became so great that it could no longe)
be refused. He would ask whether the five-sixths of th,
people who were excluded from the franchise were ,
body of men for whom they felt neither respect nor con-
fidence? Why, where would be the greatness, the hie-
tery of the past and future, and the security of 'hi
country, but for those who were denied the franchise 1
All virtue, industry, integrity, morality, and religion, die.
not reside in the sixth, who are represented in that
House. Was the constitution worth preserving? Wert
the institutions worth encouraging which stood in fear of
this class? He was not the friend of order—(Laughter)
—he meant disorder. He believed the party he was con-
nected with was the true Conservative party in that
House. He was not unmindful of the liberties and pri-
vileges which the country enjoyed, but he was satisfied
that all the advantages that we enjoyed would be conso-
lidated by passing the present measure.—(llear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE said a few words in explanation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Whatever I may think co
the motion before the House, yet I cannot enter upon
the discussion of it without paying a tribute to the mo-
deration and fairness, to the total absence of bitternees
of language, which marked the speech of the Hon.
Member for Montrose in introducing it.—(Hear, hear.)
For my part, I am happy to see him again amongst u
in renovated health—(Cheers)—and, although I differ
in opinion from him, I can have no doubt that nothing
but the most patriotic motives has induced him to bring
the motion under the consideration of the House with a
view to improve the representation and correct the
defects of our institutions.—(llear, hear.) But with
respect to that motion I must say that if there was much
doubt and obscurity both in the past year and in the
present year in the views of the Hon. Member for
Montrose—if he came before the House telling us that
he meant to give the franchise to all householders, but
that who ho meant by householders he was unable to
tell us—(Hear, hear)----and that the old understand-
ing of the word " householder" as a man who
held a house was not his definition of the
word—if, I say, there was some obscurity about
the proposal of the Honourable Member for Mon-
trose, the speech of the Hon. Member for Manchester
has cleared it of all ambiguity—(Hear, hear)—and I
think must have shown the House that, whatever might
be the wishes of the Hon. Member for Montrose himself.
whatever might be his respect for the ancient constitu
tion of this House, and however he might reverence
those forms which have enabled him to act no undistin-
guished part, and to confer no small benefit upon his
country, those who aid him, and in aiding overpower him
___(Cheers)—have no limitation in their designs—that,
to use the words of the Hon. Member for Manchester.
they
—that
-ahave norenspoet proposect forthe
toC atop
Constitution—t
0(
f ti
Heaadrm,
admitting
aal dt
hu
01 tu
gmha lteh
tt
so
wt ho eu
lenjoyment
bot fa toheed f
by
ayn
tchhei se;o
tai no
od
every
that,
of to-night—although it would not be effectual in carry-
ing the six points of the Charter—yet that is the end
to which the Honourable Member for Manchester is
directing his efforts.—(Hear, hear.) In considering this
proposition I must refer to what fell from the Hon.
Members for Bradford and East Surrey. Those Hon.
Members having said they wished they had seen me, as
the author of the Reform Bill, taking a lead in this
movement, I must-refer.a little.- to the considerations
which actuated those who framed that Reform Bill. I
should rather say, to some of the considerations; because
I do not intend to weary the House by referring to them
all. It so happened that in the 1821 I brought forward
an enlarged plan of reform in this House, and that in
1831, as the organ of the Government, I proposed a
Bill which was carried, and the main provisions of which
became the law of the land. In framing that measure
our view was to found it upon the ancient constitution
ethe constitution
agree
of the country, to consider what were the defects in the
representation of the people in this House, and to amend
these defects in the spiritsm in whichnts d
with was
Our object, likewise, was to amend
itthesovaarsiouts hatour
dm
parts of our ancient, free, and
glorious constitution.—(Hear, hear.) We were not
en
originally framed.
among those who professed no respect for that con-
stitution.—(Cheers.)We held that it was essential that
those who had the franchise should be possessed of inde-
pendence and intelligence. If there was no independ
ence in the persons who exercised the franchise, you
could have no expression of the public
hear.) If they had no independence you could not oh
tain that which is the object of representation—the
good government of the country. I was happy to hear
lion. Member for Montrose assert to-night that which I
asserted last year—that the object of representation
should be to obtain, not mere conformity to abstract
rights, but the welfare of the community at large, and
that therefore that system of representation which con
tributes most to the good government of the country
superior to any theoretical plan of perfection which ma)
be devised for the purpose by persons who are mere
speculators. Such, then, being the object of obtaining
independence and intelligence in the electoral body, let
theu us
representation consider for a moofmtehnot
country,i n what
in condition
b o both
h
thesew we found
We found in the counties a 40s. franchise,
which 83 we thought it secured as much independence
as it was possible to secure we retained. With respect
to the towns, we found the ancient household franchise
in existence, but, as in modern days it had become any-

thing but an improvement upon the class of ancient
burgesses,—the teen of property and intelligence who
formerly compose.' this class,—we thought that this kind
of franchise required to be modified in order to enable
us to obtain the object we had in view, And let me
frre observe, that much of the corruption which pre-
vailed in the constituent body in the time of the unre-
formed Parliament arose from the want of the intelli-
gence which is necessary in a constituent body. For
instance, take the question of the corn laws. If a man
were eager for the maintenance of the corn laws, or if
he were eag,r for their abolition, he would, of course,
vote for the candidate who was most favourable to his
particular views, whatever they tv,re ; but, if a man
had never even heard the question stated, and was
entirely ignorant of its merits, and if one of the
candidates before him was ready to bribe him, that
man, being totally indifferent to higher political con-
siderations, would necessarily be easily affected by
the bribe, and would give his vote, not because he
was convinced of the merits of the candidate, but
simply because he had been bribed by him.—(Hear,
hear.) I say, therefore, that I think intelligence is es-
sentially necessary in a body of electors. Then next
with respect to the arrangement of the representation.
We found that in this respect there were very great de-
fects—those defects being chiefly of two kinds. A large
number of the boroughs of the country were in the pus
session of individual proprietors, and the persons sent
hero were directly nominated by those proprietors, and
represented only those individuals. This was of course
inconsistent with any notions of popular representation.
We found also that some of the great seats of manufac-
ture aral commerce had no representatives at all; that
Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, and other large towns,
were entirely without representatives iq this House. We
proposed to correct those defects by cutting off more than
100 members from the smaller boroughs, and supplying
their places by conferring the representation upon the
larger counties, the seats of manufacture, and the po-
pulous towns of the country. But while we consi-

tiered that those defects required to be amended,
there was another part of the constitution which
did not seem to us to be so dt fective as the
[lon. Member for Montrose stated it to be at the time—

I mean that part of which comprised the sending of re-
presentatives to this House by constituent bodies of
various kinds—by large counties and populous cities,
and at the same time by smaller boroughs which are
not affected by the passions and excitement which
usually take place in large boroughs.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, for my part, considering the varied character of
the people of this country—considering their varied oc-
cnpations—considering how many men there are of
great intelligence who take little part ordinarily in poli-
tical conflicts—considering how many men there are
who give their labours to the world in the shape of
works on political science, it may be, or who are conver-
sant with commerce, but do not enter into the agitations
relating to the immediate political questions of the day,
I certainly am of opinion that the country, taken as a
whole, is far better represented by the varied kind of
representation I have just mentioned than it would be
if we had nothing but two large divisions—the counties
sending agricultural Members and the large cities
commercial Members, or representatives of the
manufacturing interest. (Hear, hear.) My be-
lief was, and I still retain that belief, that, if instead of
the present scheme of representation you were to divide
the whole country into equal electoral districts, and to
give fifty Members to the metropolis, and twenty-five
Alembers to Manchester; and if in order to balance
these you were to give a similar number of representa-
tives to the counties of Devon, and Sussex, and Norfolk,
so far from your having a more complete representation
of the country, you would have a much less complete
and less perfect representation.—(Hear hear.) You
would, indeed, have a greater number of persons repre-
senting the interests of Manchester, but you would have,
on the other hand, a greater number of persons repre-
senting the agricultural interest; and you would have
Few men not closely connected either with the one or the
other, but who, from their great attainments, are well
qualified to sit in this House, whose opinions would
nave great weight in it, whose talents would add a
lustre to the representation, and at the same time be
most useful to the country.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
qeman who spoke last alluded to the representatives for
Stamford, and the influence which Lord Exeter is sup-
posed to have in that borough. I confess myself that,
,eeing the borough of Stamford has sent here a Right
Hon. Gentleman whose long experience of public life
snd whthe knowledge of financial and commercial sub-
jects are general'y acknowledged, I do not think such
a man out of place in this House.—(Cries of " Oh, oh,"
and " Hear, hear.") It does not follow that I agree with
that Right Hon. Gentleman.—(An interruption.) I was
not saying that the Members for Stamford were the
'he representatives of Lord Exeter. My belief is, that
.f the Hon. Member for Manchester wishes to destroy
dl aristocratic influence he must go further than he has
yet proposed.—(Hear, hear.) It may be quite true that
the Marquis of Exeter possess influence in Stamford,
but show me a county where there is a man of great
landed property, and tell me if that man does not possess
,nfluence in that county also? Do Hon. Gentlemen moan
o destroy all such influence in counties?—(hear)—for
intil I hear some such declaration, I shall maintain that it
is far better that we should have a varied representation
hat small boroughs as well as large cities should be
•epresented—than that we should have only two sets
,f men representing two antagonistic classes of opinions.
—(Wear, hear.) In saying this, I have stated the
rounds upon which I think the general alterations of
the Reform Bill was founded; and it I have stated
-hem correctly, it will be seen that they differ so en-
Urtly from the proposition of to-night, that it is quite
mpossible for me, or for any of those who took a
part in framing the Reform Bill, and who still retain

ht it opinions,— to adopt any such measure as that
which the Hon. Member for Montrose has to-night

shows that up to this time public opinion was not pre-
pared for the change which the House in 1846 adopted.
My belief is. though I do not assent to the wisdom of the
course the House took in so long delaying this change,
that it was not behind public opinion in the course it
took on that subject.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to
many subjects in relation to religious liberty, as to the
Roman Catholics particularly; does any one believe that
universal suffrage would produce less feeling of reli-
gious bitterness and animosity that now exists among
Members of the House?—(Cheers.) My belief is that
Members of this House are far more liberal than the
community in general are disposed to be.—(Cheers.) The
lion. Gentleman says the liberal and democratic ele-
ments of the country do not exist in the House, mere
especially in the Cabinet, and that the feeling of the
aristocracy entirely governs the formation of the Mi-
nistry. With respect to this subject—though I am afraid
the Hon. Gentleman will think I am labouring under
some strange delusion—my belief is that the people—
that the humblest people, that the poorest people of this
country, have no indisposition to the aristocracy.—(Loud
and general cheering.) My belief is that the aristocracy
is not and could not bo forced upon them, but that the
aristocracy having, from the time it became a free
country, most happily for its liberty and most fortu-
nately for themselves, felt a sympathy with popular
liberty having even entertained popular prejudices
when the people were prejudiced, and having stood up
for popular rights when those rights were attacked—
my belief is, I say, that the aristocracy of this country
has a strong hold on the opinions and affections of the
people.—(Loud cheers.) And, Sir, when we talk of the
aristocracy, and of the members of different Admi-
nistrations, let it be recollected that many of the
aristocracy of this day were the democracy of 50 years
ago.—(Cheers.) It was said by a very clever person,
whose opinions I have heard quoted ih the House, Ma•
dame de Steel, when she came to this -country and
studied our manners and constitution a little, " I see now
what is the difference between your aristocracy and the

ancient noblesse of France. In that country the aristo-
cracy was the despair of talent, in this country it is the hope
of talent."—(Much cheering.) These very words very
well express in my mind the difference between one of
. _

those constitutional aristocracies which never admitted
new persons into its ranks, and never gained new mem-
bera, and the aristocracy of England, which contains in
many instances persons the sons and grandsons of those
who were themselves the democracy of the country,
whose fortune was of the very smallest and most insig-
nificant, but whose talents, we find by the credit which
they obtained for the exercise of them, raised those per-
sons to a place among the aristocracy.—(Cheers.) And
are we to be told the very next day, as it were, that
those persons aro to be put under ban and excluded
from all share in the government of the country,—
that they are not to enjoy any of the social distinctions
of life ?—(Cheers.) What I have to find fault for with
the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) and
those who agree with him is, that they are so exceed-
ingly narrow-minded.—(Tremendous cheering from the
Opposition benches.) Ge•t them upon the subjects with
which they are particularly conversant, and I listen with
great admiration to their extensive knowledge and acute
ability, but when we come to discuss large questions
such as concern the fortune of our empire, then I see
that they have intellect and understanding bound
up in such a narrow round—(The Noble Lord was in-
terrupted by a tremendous burst of cheering from the
same quarter)—that it is quite impossible to get them
to understand those great principles on which our ances-
tors founded the constitution of this country, and which
we, their successors, humbly admire and endeavour to
follow. The Hon. Member (Mr. Bright) spoke too of
economy, and told us that nothing could be done in this
House to obtain it—that motions for economy were refused
and rejected, and that even the smallest reduction was not
sanctioned by a majority. But, Sir, I think in this re-
spect the House and the country have very much come
to the opinion if there is a strong disposition for re-
trenchment in the public mind that the Government is
likely to listen to that opinion, and that having listened
to it they are more likely to carry inch retrenchment
into effect in the manner which is conducive to the t ffi-
ciency of the public service, than by votes and discus-
sions debated in the course of some half-hour upon the
estimates. The fact i., that since the estimates of last
year were introduced, the navy estimates have been re-
duced nearly 400,0001., and there have been various
other reductions. Therefore, though there have been
no direct votes of the House cutting down the esti-
mates, yet the influence of public opinion has been
brought to bear upon them, and they are now made
more in conformity with public opinion than, as
I must confess, they were when we presented
them at the beginning of last year. But if this be the
case, the Hon. Gentleman has no reason to complain
of the want of economy which exists. The Honourable
Gentleman, indeed, speaks always as if we were adding
to the taxation of this country, and as if the people
were barn° down by an additional weight of taxation
which it was impossible for them to bear. He (Mr.
Hume) always argues in this way—we paid 50,000,0001.
10 years ago ; we pay 52,000,0001. now. There is,
therefore, an additional taxation of 2,000,000/. But
when he does so he really uses a computation which is
unworthy of the knowledge we know the Honourable
Member must possess on the subject. The real matter
to be inquired into is, whether the same taxation is kept
up, if there has been any ad.lition to it, or if the taxes
have been reduced. In looking to this subject I beg
to refer the Honourable Gentleman to a paper of the
taxes imposed and of the taxes reduced within the
last 20 years, viz., from 1829 to 1847. I find the sum
,otal is, that while 6,000,0001. of taxation has been im-
post d upwards of 17,000,0001. has be. n reduced, making
a balance of excess of taxes repealed over taxes imposed
of 11,266,000/.—(Cheers.) And, he it observed, in the

proposed for our consideration. There is another very
lifficult question with which we are not called upon to
teal to-night, but in which I may in passing allurie.
[ mean the question whether, in conformity "skit the
4eneral principle of the Reform Act, which I believe
o be a just principle, there might not be a greats r
lumber of persons possessing the suffrage than at pre-
%eta; whether, in fret, the working classes should not
be admitted more generally to held tho suffrage; and
whether, in the great towns, in the counties, and in the
loroughs, there should not be another kind of franchi,e
ntroduced, to enable them to vote for the representatives
if such places.—(Hear, hear.) I stated last year my
'pinion in favour of such an extension. I stated various
nodes in which it might be done; but the Hon. Gentle
nail who makes the present proposition and his friends
save always protested against any extension of that
kind. Ever since I starated the proposition I have seen
,t treated with ridicule by those who hold the opinions
d the Hon. Gentleman as a change which would not be
tt all satisfactory—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bright)—
ind which ought to be derided, and not adopted. But
he Hon. Member for Manchester, who says that the
working classes are entirely excluded from the elective
ranchise, showed, in answer to the Hon. Member for
Warwickshire, that this is not precisely the case, because,
seeing that the possession of a forty-shilling freehold
dives persona a right to vote, he stated that many of that
class were now accumulating their industrial savings to

course of these 20 years the population has been increas-
ing, the means and property of the country have been
. .

increasing, and, therefore, with 11,000,000/.1 ss of tnx
ation, that which remains is imposed on a greater amount
of population and preperty.—(Hear, hear.) There have
been of late great complaints that taxes imposed on ar-
ticles of consumption of the people wire maintained, arid
it was sail there should be direct taxation instead.
Now, let us examine this question. I find that of the
sum total of taxes taken off, 7,500,0001. was taken off
Ihe Excise, and 9,500,0001. off the Customs, while
800,0001. had been imposed on the Excise and 2,000,0001.
on the Customs, leaving a balance of 7,000,0001. in excess
of duties repealed in the latter, and of 6,000,0001. in the
former in the last 20 years.—(Hear, hear.) So far.is it
from being true, therefore, that the country is bureened
and weighed down by an additional amount of taxation,
chat this Howe for the last twenty years, having been
employed in the same way for twelve years before, has
been employed in taking off the load of taxation, and in
diminishing the burdens of the people. But let me con-
sider the state of those taxes which are on the neces-
saries of life at the present period, and compare them
with what they were formerly. I will take a speech de-
livered in this House 112 years ago.—(A. laugh.) We
have had since that time many wars, and more especially
the last great revolutionary war, which caused this
country to incur debt to an enormous extent, and there.
fore it may be supposed that taxes on the necessaries of
life would be greatly increased. Here is an extract from
a speech delivered at the period I mention:—

.• .
my freeholds, and ho read an opinion by the late Lord "For my part, Ido not know any ono necessary of
Chief Justice Tindal, showing that such a project was in life upon which we have not some tax or another,
aria conformity with the policy of the Parliament of except water; and we can put no ingredient I know of
this country. If that is the case, then no class is ex- into water in order to make it palatable and cheerful
eluded. When a working Man has saved a sufficient sum without paying a tax. We pay a tax for air, and
to enable him to buy a freehold in his native count, for the light and heat of the sun in the daytime,
.here is no person in this house who will not say ho is by means of our tax upon windows; and for light
;lad to see him enjoying the benefits of his industry and and heat in the nighttime by means of our duties up.in
erugality.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman, indeed, in coals and candles; we pay a tax upon bread, meat, roots
arguing on this subject said, that he thought this a per- and herbs of all kinds by means ot' our salt duty; we pay
'ectly fair means of acquiring the suffrage; but he did a tax upon small beer by means of the malt-tax, and a
not answer the Hon. Member for Warwickshire, who heavy additional tax upon strong beer by way of ex-
3omplained not of the practice of working men haying eke. Nay, we cannot have any clean thing to put upon
freeholds, but of other parties lending them the money; our backs, either of woollen or of linen, without paying
and thus, while putting them nominally in possession of a tax by means of the duty on soap, &e."
s vote, depriving them of all free will to exercise it.— Now, with respect to all those taxes, it is to be observed,
(Cheers.) Therefore, I can only say again. upon this that the duties on coals, candles, and most of the taxes
~übject, not considering this as the topic of to-night, here mentioned no longer exist. Adam Smith, writing
and therefore not wishing to dwell further upon it, that some twenty years after, said there wore four articles,
here is nothing in the Reform Act, and nothing in any necessaries of life, taxed in this country,—leather, salt,
apinion I have ever held, or in any opinion I hold now, candles, and soap. Of all these there is now only one
which would debar me from seeing with satisfaction any which bears any tax. I think these things are worth
plan by which the admission of the working classes could mentioning, because we hear it continually repeated that
be still further extended, and the basis widened upon there are great taxes on the necessaries of lite, which
which the representation rests.—(Hear, hear.) The our ancestors had not to bear, and that thef people are
Honourable Member for Montrose, in replying now suffering under an additional
weight e o
and taxation.revon
to my speech of last year, said that there had That two such greatf wars—the
American
appear to me
not been any great reform carried except at the risk tionaryv war—both
eoe whichr I must
y (Hear, hear)—should have
of civil war and the danger of convulsions
in
snsgt thete rendered
e beendaered necessaryuae assagiea—t load of taxation, is what I
people. Now, whatever truth there may be _ this
went with respect to Parliament as it stood beforeathe- am compelled to admit, but it is what lam sure the Hon.
Reform Act, Ido not think the Hon. Gentleman quoted Gentleman would not wish to alter, if the alteration re-
a single instance since the Reform Act, in which there quired any breach of faith or any attack on public ere-
was any such danger before a reform was carried.— dit.—(Hear, hear.) And yet let him not be sure the
(Hear.) He referred to the danger of a rising among plan he proposes would not have a great effect on that
the blacks of Jamaica, but that is a question entirely un- credit. I cannot forget when one of those great peti-
connected with the representation in this House—this Lions, signed I believe by some 3,000,000 or 4,000,000,
House having never represented, or was supposed to was presented by the Hon. Member (Mr. Duncombe),
represent, the negroes of the West India islands.— the petitioners especially declaimed against the national
(Hear, hear.) Therefore the only instance he quoted debt, and asked the House to abolish it, on the ground
since the Reform Act was singularly inapplicable to the that we were directly forced to incur and pay the
purpose.—(Hear.) But I cannot concur with him in the interest upon it. Therefore, Sir, I don't think it so
opinion that he gave, that this House had been slow to exceedingly safe, if this motion should be carried, that
edopt reforms and changes which have been sanctioned many of those admitted to the suffrage would not in
by public opinion. Whether the changes we adopted their ignorance think they would be benefited by the
were salutary or injurious, no one can deny that during reduction of those taxes required to pay
the national
the seventeen years we have acted under the Reform debt.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the gist of this
Act there have been great changes made in a variety of motion, and as to its main purpose of admitting everyd
subjects.—(Hear, hear.) Take the questions with re- male of full age to vote, I must say,
of the
;pest to the Church. There has been a settlement of b. o ect to giving every person a vote. for Members
the tithe question—a great restriction a limitation House of C (Cheers)—in the
an Commons belief that they
frankly, that I 0
placed upon pluralities—the translation of bishops would, many of them, be easily affected by Misrepre-
ilrnost put an end to, and the holding of livings by /mutations and delusions, and that they have not suffi-
them to make a
bishops in commendant entirely abolished.—(Hear.) cient political information tob
Next, with regard to the Dissenters. They complained right choice of Members. (C enableeers.) The Honourable
they could not marry except in accordance with the Member asks me ifl Ido not— believe in their virtue and
oreudnittrytofotrhethgeirreavtirtbuoedyahodt
rites of the Established Church—that they could not integrity. I
lentierseeyi
procure registration for their children except by going. the working ccalLsve,
that they
time to time you may enlarge
'o a clergyman of the same establishment. That.grte; integrity. I believe, gthivics cc
will bicomo more and more
ranee had been remedied. Then
taken thema dgea withea question nreo. thevo suffrage,worth} of
f
3 the franchise; but, as far as I can see and
trade. now many changes havehlo;e
China trade, which s'errve,•.l say that if you were at the present time to
tto it? In the first instance, t
was a monopoly of the East India Company, has' been divide the whole country into districts,artfu aannddgdiveeslgesr:eiirlyg
general. Then take the man a vote, as the Hon. Gentleman proposes, the people
thrown open to merchants in
changes in the Customs when the Right Hon. Gentle- would be liable to be misled by
The corn-laws, which demagogues—(Cheers)—and that the_ representation of
man (Sir R. Peel) was in office.
had subsisted for so long a time, entirely abolished; the this House, so formed, would not conduce to the welfa, e
people.—(Loud cheers.)
altered; relating to the prohibition of foreign sugar entirely and good government of the
Member asked us to imitate that which is now
which have been going o. nin countries abroad, and on this subject I must
other measures as to trade adopted;. and, but The Hon.
the other day, the
boasted of from, the time of Cromwell to the present day, speak in the same spirit as that in which it was adverted
navigation-laws,
repealed by the vote
I say, then, that whether these changes were wise or not, the Home Department (Sir G. Grey). I by no means
se has not been slow to adopt
wish,
as the Honourable Member (Mr. Hume) seems to
they do show that the Sou
• d
alterations in our policy whichwere require by suppose, to defend or to eulogise those Kings who have
But then the Honourable Gen- so long withheld from their subjects constitutional
public opinion.
public opinion hasgone before • , n says,
tCheemplouse with respect to those measures. Now, I wish my belief was, if they began after 1815 to admit their
he would look to the election of 1841, and to those in people to the enjoyment of constitutional liberty—if they
Lancashire particularly. Let him look to several of tbo had framed those laws with respect to the press which
; townsin Lancashire sending Members to vote against any would have enabled thei f subjects to understand, and
alteration in the corn-laws. That this 010414 hare been so discuss political inattera iastead of. being cltiven to ape!

culative works and wild theories as their models of
government, that they would have taken the wise
course, and that we should not have seen the con-
vulsions and tumults of the last and of the present year.
—(Hear, hear.) But it is quite different to hold that
opinion, and to ray I am anxious to imitate the present
course of things on the continent. Nor do I think those
nations mean to proceed in that advance which they were
once so ready to profess.--(Hear, hear.) I see that with
respect to the Prussian Constitution of last year, for in-
stance, universal suffrage was to be the established rule.
We were left behind. Prussia had got to the top of the
tree, and we were at the bottom, in darkness and igno-
rance. The Hon. Member said we should have followed.
" Don't let us be behind Prussia," said he; " there they
have got universal suffrage. Don't let England follow at
such a distance in, her wake." But what have we seen
in the present. year? By the Constitution which is now
adopted the electors are divided into three classes—the
richest and smallest class, who pay most; another more
numerous paying smaller taxes, and a third very nume-
rous class paying the smallest amount of taxes of all.
Are they all to have an equal right of suffrage? By no
means.—(clear, hear.) The 500 of the first class are to
choose as many representatives to the Chamber at Berlin
as the third class of 5,000 persons. What is that but
another way of escaping from the evils of universal suf-
frage?—(Hear, hear.) Such a system would be totally
new in this country. For my own part, I would rather
obtain this full representation by the old and prescrip-
tive mode of the constitution. We have to see yet
whether this scheme will succeed. While we see such
a course of changes and transmutations in other coun-
tries, dou't let us have the weakness, and childishness,
and folly, to imitate them till they have at least fixed on
something really good and legitimate. The lion. Gen-
tleman wishes us to imitate the nations of the continent.
I see, in the course of these changes, almost every great
capital has been, for a certain time, in a state of siege.—
(Cheers.) Paris,Vienna, Berlin, and Milan, have all been
in that condition. And what is the case in a mate of siege?
No security for liberty, the press entirely crushed, ac-
cording to the will of some general commanding in the
town. If any newspaper appears, hostile to the ruling
power, or displeasing to the general in command, he goes
off with some thousand or two of men able to enforce his
orders, and says, " The town is in a state of siege, this
newspaper shall not appear." Now, is that a state of
things we should envy or ought to imitate?—(Cheers.)
Well, we enjoy some freedom of the press; we, who
have each man every morning, according to his desire,
the opinions he chooses duly set before him. One
newspaper tells hiss the whole country is ruined by free
trade—another tells the reader the country is ruined
because we have not adopted universal suffrage. So
long as each man has this luxury—(A laugh)—to read
what paper he chooses, all of them agreeing that the
country is ruined, in the first instance, and then having
different opinions from which he may please himself
as to the cause of that ruin, and to have his news-
paper presented to him at his breakfast table,
don't let us have this state of siege, of which we
have heard so much; and don't let us have seine general
at the Horse Guards depriving every man of his
newspaper.—(Cheers and laughter.) I would not have
any imitation of those nations on the continent which
are at present undergoing those transformations.
I trust that a rational and temperate liberty may be the
result of all their struggles. I am sorry to see their
efforts beset by so many difficulties, and accompanied by
so much bloodshed. But, so tar as I see, there are but
three great countries which appear to stand, each ac-
cording to its constitution, in a firm and unmoved posi-
tion—the one where there is a complete democracy,
namely, the United States, where none of the people
wish to change their constitution—where it is evidently
suited to them; another in the opposite pole, the empire
of Russia, where the law is fixed by the sole will of the
monarch, but where order is preserved and general se-
curity for life and property afforded under the strict
means adopted by the supreme authority; the third is
the constitutional monarchy of Great Britain; and, so
far as I can see, the people of this country are as much
attached to the constitutional monarchy as the people
of any c eintry have ever been attached to the constitu-
tion of their own state. My belief is that it is the form
of government suited to this people. illy belief is that
not a balance of forces, but a combination of powers
brought about by monarchy, aristocracy, and demo-
cracy acting together, produces as much of liberty and
happiness, as great a development of talent, as great en-
couragement in the practice of religious and moral duties
as any constitution the world ever exhibited has pro-
duced. My belief is, that if you adopted the scheme of
the Hon. Member for Montrose, as it is explained by
the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), you
would risk all these blessings.—(Cheers.) Ido not
think that you, the House of Commons, chosen by uni-
versal suffrage in equal or nearly equal districts, would
long have peace in this House; and, if you had peace
in this House by an overwhelming majority carrying
measures of a democratic nature, you could not keep
harmony with the other two powers of the state.—
(Hear, hear.) In framing and proposing the Re-
form Bill, as I stated at the commencement, what we
wished was to adapt the representation of this House to
the other powers of the state and keep it in harmony
with the constitution. That object, I think, after seven-
teen years' trial, we have attained. We have obtained a
gradual progress of measures of reform without convul-
sion, without fear, or risk of blocdshed. If you go on
in the same course other measures will be adopted by
Parliament, other measures which, being in harmony
with the opinions of the people, will pass into a law in
a constitutional manner, and without inteiruptiou to that
constitution. I pray you, therefore, in the name of that
constitution, not to adopt the measure now before the
House, but to give it a decided negative. I believe you
%ailt be consulting the interests, ar.d I am firmly con-
vinced you will also be consulting the wishes and opinions
of the people.—(Great cheering.)
Mr. OSBORNE thought it could not have escaped the
observation of the House and would riot of the people,
that the opposition to the motion had come, %silt' one
~xcerion, not from the hi reditory enemies of reform on
the other tide, I ut from the Gendsmen se ho now occu-
pied the Treasury bench. They hal climb d into power
on the credit of what had been done by the Hon. :`slernbt r
for Montrose, and those who bad been stigmatised as
men of narrow and confuted minds. It was time that
those who expressed so narrow and c finned ideas should
be thrown over by those whom they stigmatised. The
most remaikable speech of the evening was that made
from the vicinity of the red box by the Hon. Member for
Cambridge. His whole argument was drawn, like a
special
constable's, from the 10th of April. The Hon,
and classical Member when he referred to Aristotle for.
got that Aristotle had been persecuted by the Conserva-
tives of his day for his new doctrines. The Hon.
Member's speech would have been more appropriate on
the miscellaneous Estimates. With respect to the speech
of the Secretary for the Home Department there had,
since the days of Julian the Apostate—(Laughter)—been
no such conversion recorded in history. It was true, he
said, that in 1842 he had voted for the ballot,
but he had been converted the other day by the argu-
ment of the Hon. Member for Oldham! Jul:an the
Apostate had assumes the garb of a monk at first, but
when he reached the Imperial throne, whey he took his
place on the Treasury bench of his day, he voted against
Christianity. The speech of the Noble Lord was a me-
lancholy failure. He app:aled to the Conservative fears
of the old women. Not content with referring to the
state of foreign countries, he brought in the subject of
the national debt. In the book on the English consti-
tution—that curious book wherein he said the constitu-
tion to which be now appealed had never been fixed—he
stated that the national debt had been the great cause of
the taxation of the country; and, therefore, that it des-
potism were to be established in England it must begin
by destroying the rational debt, the people, possibly,
being wilting to part with their liberties in exchange for
a diminished pressure of taxation. How did such views
tally with those now expressed by the Noble Lord?
The attempt to terrify those sensitive persons the fund-
holders was a weak invention of the enemy. The Whig
party were notoriously more aristocratic at all times,
more anti-liberal in reality than those who avowedly
opposed liberal principles. lii the words of Swift, they
1 "Forget the dunghill where they grew,
And think themselves the Lord knows who".

—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord said—and the Right
Hun. Member for Tamworth cheered him at the time—
that half the capitals of Europe were in a state of siege.
Was the Noble Lord so satisfied with respect to his
own Government, was he so confident that he could
point to Ireland and say that at present it was not in a
state of.siege? The Habeas Corpus Act was suspended;
the Alien Act had been renewed; and at this moment
there were actually more soldiers in Ireland than voters.
Was it not notorious that four prosecutions had been
instituted against one newspaper, and that the Attor-
ney-General could not possibly get a conviction against
Mr. Duffy? The more any plan was pressed, the> More
did the Noble Lord recede. He would propose none of
his own, and therefore Hon. Members were obliged to
vote for the plan of the Hon. Member for Montrose. If he
(Mr. Osborne) might offer any, advice to those men of
narrow and contracted minds, the free-traders, it would
itself
which ant
theirin cu bus
talentson
would
be that they should make a stand, separate themselves
thefrome ou
omrtchnatt ymaand.
party
n d t
a e
which
The Noble ! position
ch
theh a d°provedi
Lordon would be left to de-
claim to empty benches, while they were carried into
power on the shoulders of the people.—(Divide, divide.)
Mr. P. W. WOOD rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,"
t timeoiefnr ce ef
consumedo mr
mi g. ht
Hb
ee
wona s satisfiedprevious
tnsooost
see
ecaatvshii
that
tngs had much of
and observed, that Hon. Gentlemen who evinced so much
heri
uponm a
eqiuteys,s-
tGlimhooelivrasernment had considered the present subject worthy
of discussion. It was said that there were no petitions
in favour of the proposed measure; but that circumstance
could not ignore the t aistence of 5.000,000 or
6,000,000 of unenfranchiscd Englishmen, whose feelings
were too sensitive to be indifferent to contemptuous con.
duct, and whose minds were far too acute to take
sneers for arguments.—(Cheers.) Nobody had gr ,p-
-pled with the motion; but the artifice which had been
retorted to both by the Noble Lord and by the Right
[lon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grcy) was to assume that
motion to be identical with the one brought forward on
i former occasion by the Hon. Member for N, ttinghatn
(Mr. F. O'Connor). But the two measures were dia-
metrically opposed to each other. It was curious enough
that in the debate on the Triennial Bill in 1792—which
.as supported both by Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt—Mr.
Fox (who was then in power) said, " that it was the
fatality of this country that the Government would
never move towards reformation till it was on the
brink of destruction, nor until they teared that every
man was about to take up a musket." That, also, bad
been uniformly the case with all the Governments on
the continent, and had been one main cause of those
convulsions which were now taking place in almost
every country in Europe.—(Hear.) It was said that
there were no petitions calling for the measure; at
other times when numerous petitions were presented, the
cry was, " Oh, this is agitation." He (Mr. Wood) was
no agitator. He did not approve of itinerant agitation.
—(Opposition cheers.) He refused, in 1832, to join the
Yolitiottl UnioDi and yet; lifter 411, it wao the kolitioal