The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-27 00:00:00

PILOTAGE BILL.

Earl GRAN VILLE moved the order of the day for

the second reading of this Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he understood the
object of this Bill to be, to afford facilities to shipowners
in respect to pilotage, and to relieve them of certain ex-
penses to which they were now by law liable. He doubted
whether the Bill would relieve those parties in the way in-
tended; but of this he had no doubt, that it might have the
effect of putting down certain ancient establishments in
this country, which had existed time out of mind, con-
nected with which were men who had been most useful
in piloting ships in the difficult navigation of the narrow
seas, and more particularly in communication with this
great commercial metropolis. Under the existing law,
all vessels coming up Channel were under the necessity
of taking pilots on board, and of making signals that
they were in want of pilots. Now the object of this
measure was to relieve those vessels from the obligation
of making signals when they might have on board any
person or officer who was possessed of a certificate as to
his competency to take charge of the ship in these seas.
He was apprehensive that the consequence of this mea-
sure would be to put down that body of pilots who bad
hitherto contributed by their labour to the safety of the
navigation. These fellowship pilots existed under the
provisions of Acts of Parliament, which insisted upon
the necessity of every ship having a pilot on board. The
duty of these pilots was regulated by Act of Parliament;
and their duty was carried on under the supervision of
the Privy Council. No alteration could be made in the
regulation except by the Council; and the remuneration
of pilots had been fixed by Act of Parliament. Under
these circumstances ho contended that Par •

liament had formally protected this institution,
and he, therefore, earnestly entreated their Lord-
ships to consider well before they adopted any measure
which should have the effect of putting it down. He
had himself been Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports for
twenty years, and he found that in a term of ten years,
1829 to 1839, in each of the ten years there had been
3,800 ships brought into the river every year, and there
were only twenty-two complaints of auy misfortune. ort
misconduct on the part of the pilots. These comP!awieuros
were all inquired into, and it turned out that
only nine cases which had any foundation,
the complaints being proved to be unfounded.wernonly
fourteen
following years, 1839 to 1849, there
year.
s before, 3,800 ships
complaints, there being tibh
1 thirteen
nt
hoof
only six were well founded, brought up into the river;dod each
a 11,5 f t
i, these
restfourteen
being
unfounded.
number of ships carried up the
safety by means of these pilots, and
Srein
river every y so few complaints had been made
that in each ten years so
Now, considering the
and inquired into, he did not think he was asking
too much of their Lordships when he begged them to
tie great care that no steps should be taken which would
ld
prejudice the case of those ancient institutions. There
werewe r o
wantednow
asthosee
could pilots,
he
and if i
ft
o more
r
numbers. As to the provisions of the Bill, he
ob-
serve that it was in the power of the Lord
Wardenwould
grant licences to those individuals who
undertook
to
the
management of a ship as master or mate, being on board.
He would
say, as Lord Warden that he would not
give
licences to any individuals '
to take charge of a ship as
pilot, unless he first proved himself to b
e perfectly quali-
fled under the existing Act of Parliament of
as capable
taking charge of a vessel into port. But when a man
applied to him, and ho was called upon to sign such and
such certificates, that fact showed the necessity of mak-
ing every possible preliminary inquiry. He did not
think that it would be desirable, either to the ship-
owners or to the merchant, to put down this institution,
and not to insist that they should have on board every
ship a person having a thorough knowledge of the pilot-
age. There was now a sufficient number of these
men to convey safely into port 3,800 ships an.
nually; and he was sure it was more desirable
to a commercial port that they should have these
120 men duly qualified to perform the duty, rather
than trust the safety of a ship to the chance of any
ono who might be on board, having one of these certifi-
cates. He did not see the advantage of such a mea-
sure. with reference to the saving of expense also, he
( observed that the average expense of; 6‘ Government

. - .
pilot was 31. or 41. a ship; was it possible that each of for Manchester (Mr. Bright) put a question to him yes- -
these pilots under this Bill should go on board a ship, terday as to this dinner. At the time that question was
i
and go a voyage, and not get more than 42. in wages ? put, he had no information whatever on the subject, but
But the pilot was paid at the end of the voyage. A man in the course of the day he received a letter from the
under the existing law dare not take more than he was Lord-Lieutenant, stating that immediately on seeing the
allowed. He doubted the economy of the measure; as report of 'the dinner in the paper referred to, he had
respected the shipowner; and he was sure that the corn- felt it to be his duty to take steps for obtaining correct
mercial interestseef the country did not require that they • and full information; in order to satisfy himself that any ,
should take any measures td pat down the fellowship further measures were required of him.—(Hear, hear.)
pilots. He had no doubt that the Noble Lord would in this
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE gaid that the sole case also act with that impartiality and firmness which
•object of this Bill was to repeal an existing burden on he had uniformly exhibited.---(Cheers) Having stated
the shipowners. He heard that it was felt to be a his opinion, as to the iinpolicy of any discussion on this
burden by them, and it had been strongly represented subject under present circumstances, he trusted that
to him that such was the ease. For himself, he could those Members who agreed with that view would ale*
ouly say he should be the last person who would wish stain from prolonging this debate.—(Hear, hear.)
to see that burden removed at the expense of an existing Sir W. VERNER said he was sure the House would
institution over which the Noble Duke so ably pre- feel he was justified in saying a feiv words in his own
sided ; which he was bound to respect, not only from its defence, especially after the unqualified language which
antiquity, but from the diligent- administration of its had bten used by the Hon. Member for Dublin.—(Hear,
functions. But he must beg the Noble Duke and the hear.) He had commenced to take down his statements,
House to recollect that this Bill, far from being founded but he would not follow the Hon. Member through them
in disrespect to those parties, was founded in entire all. He would only state that having bad the honour for
respect to them, and in the fullest confidence, because it fifty years of being connected with that Royal Protestant
was a permissive Bill, and nothing but a permissive Bill; Association, he gave the most unqualified contradiction
because the Noble Duke was left to preserve the system to every one of these statements.— (Hear, hear.) He
as it stood, or to introduce such modifications only as he,l had given notice for additional returns, with the view of
should think necessary. But this Bill went to authorise ; showing that the Orangemen were not the only persons
parties who had long exercised the same functions to ; who walked in party processions and disturbed the
obtarn the same privileges on obtaining certificates as to. I public peace in Ireland ; and these returns would show
their ability to act as pilots. The commanders of 11 that on the 17th of March a party of armed Ribbonmen
steamers especially complained of the present regulation. i had fired upon the people during a procession at Cross-
He thought that this Bill would hold out encouragement i gar, in the county Down. A similar occurrence took
to sober and intelligent seamen. 1 place near the town of Keady, in the county of Armagh,
Iso late as the 28th of last month. He; thought that he
Lord STANLEY
in the way of the removal of eny burden which fell upon . was justified in asking for these returns, in order to
the shipowner; but in regard to this Bill, it appeared to . show the facts of the case to the House.—(Hear, hear.)
him, from what he had heard elsewhere, that an point of : The yeomanry of the north of Ireland had always been
pressure, this was not a burden which pressed upon those : loyal, and on a kite occassion, when rebellion was raging
interests which had been referred to. This Bill had only ;in other parts of Ireland, they offered their services to
been introduced in the House of Commons on the 12th oft the Government, and the consequence was, that the
July. He held in his hand •a petition froin'the commis- i whole of the toops were withdrawn from Ulster, and its
sioners of the Humber navigation at. Hull, which pieyed i defence left entirely to the loyal Protestants of the pro-
that this Bill might not come into oporation,e vince. He would read to the House a challenge that
and stating that it would injuriously 'affect their t had been sent a day or two before 12th July, when the
interests. That petition was- intended to have 1 unfortunate occurrence took place at Castlewellan. It
been presented to the other Honse, but the ! was addressed to George Shaw, Justice of the Peace.
measure had passed with such rapidity that he a
ss only i The Hon. and Gallant Geotleman read the document,
only received it on the day on which it stood for a cond ! which stated that at a meeting of the society to u hid,
reading in their Lordships' House. Several ports had ' the writer belonged, it was resolved to invite Mr. Shaw,
their respective establishments for pilots; but he could., Roden, Skinner, Beard, and all the rest of the magis-
not see why their numbers should be increased, as that 1 trates, with their police, to meet them on Dellybrae and
would lead to uncertainty and change as to the efficiency i show them valour. The writer added, that as there was
of such establishments, or it eeinht, remelt in the necessity no river convenient to throw them into—(i\. daugh)—
of their reducing their standing staff. There was no they intended to trust in good powder and ball, and were
urgency in the case to justify the carrying of this Bill:, determined that no bloodhound should well: erect in
Ho would ask whether the Government meant to confine i Ireland. That was a specimen of the feeling exhibited
"the grant of these licences to British vessels and British Iby these people. With respect to the dinner at Dublin,
subject'? Did they Mean to give an advantage to Britiah he believed the facts were altogether misstated; how
A
-
ire over foreign vessels? If so, that would be in con- ever, as the questien was undergoing investigation, he
trediction with what they profeesed—namely, the put- • would not say more, but content himself by moving fur
tin; our trade on an equal foctinc'. He hoped their 1 the following returns:—" A copy of any correspondence
Lordships would pause before theyb passed such a , between the Government of Ireland and the civil and
measure.
I military authorities of the county of Down, relating to
LerdCOLCIIE3TER bore his testimony to that body, '\ public or armed assembl • s
processions, pu , ages o.
ow r whom the Noble Duke presided. It- the effect o the people on the 12th day of this instant July; a
this Bill should be such as to prejudice the interests'of similar return o any. correspondence relating to a pro-
that most useful body of men, it could not fail to have cession at Crossger, in the county of Down, on the 17th
the most injurious of vets. He considered 'that sailors' day of Marchdast ; and also of a meeting and proces-
hom es were a great benefit to seamen, and he was in 1
csioounnteyvhoicfhAtromolaeghp,laicne
tile: r a
ftiheex
ntoozooff
Thursday, the
tthhee
,
favour if their ceitablishesent.
Berl Gle taNVILLE did not think any point bad been 1 28th of June lest, or early in the morning of Friday,
`raised in the diseutsion which bad not been anticipated , the pth."
by the Noble Alai-sushv. near him (Marquis of -14.2riS. Lord CASTLEREAGII was unwilling to prolong the
downe), except that point which referred to the position discussion while the aff.lir was under investigation—
in which foreign- ptecvers would be placed by the BA!. He I (Ifeen)—and, therefore, ha had forborne from noticing
did not anticinate: any danget from adinittidg foreign 1 the language addressed to him by the Hon. Member for
masters of foreign vessels to the knowledge of the peeu- i
Dublin.—(Hear.) He should do to still; for, thoegh
liarities of Our coast and harbours, because even at the
,I the Hon. Member had promised to show strong reasons
present time American vessels of a certain tonnage were' vvh) the cuune he had taken was justified, he appealed
admitted to oar ports without en English pilot. to the House if he had done so.—(Hear, hear.) While
The-Earl of ELLENBOROUGH obj'.cted to the Bill. he was up, however, he would say that he believed there.
Ile eonsidErad this Bill had been hurriedly introduced, was very great doubt in Ireland whether these meetings
to forward the objects of those steam-vessel owners who i were illegal or not.—(Hear.) If they were illegal, why
now plied between this country and the opposite foreign had not the Government issued a proclamation forbid-
coas:s. It was unfortunately too much the case at the ing them ? In justice to the gentleno n who were now
present day, when a grievance was discovered,' to intro- on their trial,- and whom the Hon. Member for Dublin
. .

duce not ti measure to do away with that particular
grievance, but a measure of larger and more important
effects, which would have a tendency to create greater
grievances than the grievances sought to be remedied.
It would be the case he apprehended with the present
Bill. If the Bill were passed, he feared that a class of
pilots would be introduced who might be able to pilot a
vessel in a particular locality with-great ability, but then
an existing class of pilots would be destroyed, who
could now navigate vessels anywhere. He hoped,
however, that certificates would not be given by the
Trinity House to pilots, except on a certificate that they
were not only acquainted with our own coast!, bat also
the opposite coasts. He saw very considerable risk at-
tending this measure; for he feared it would have the
effect of preventing the higher class of pilots from enter-
ing the service of the Trinity House. It might, possibly,
be true that some expense would be saved by employing
a master instead of a pilot if the Bill were adopted; but
he was pretty sure that the increase of insurance rates
on account of the increased risk would vastly overbalance
the saving that might arise in another direction. He
should move that the Bill be road that day three
months. •

Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared
for the amendment—
Contents
Non contents .._ 15
Majority for the second reading of
the Bill
The Bill was then read a second time.
The Royal Pavilion (Brighton) Bill passed through
Committee.
PROTECTION OF WOMEN BILL.
The Earl of HARROWBY moved that the amend.
ments of the Commons in this Bill should be agreed to.
Lord CAMPBELL expressed his disapproval of the
Bill, and moved that those amendments should be agreed
to on that day three months.
Earl NELSON supported the Bill.
The amendments of the Commons in the Bill were
then agreed to without any division.
Oa the motion of the Earl of CARLISLE the New
Forest and Waltham Forest Bill was read a second time.
On the motion of the Earl of ST. GERMANS the

... -5

New Zealand Land Conveyance Bill passed through
Committee.

On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL the Trustees
Relief Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL the Poor-laW
Union Charges Act Amendment Bill passed through
Committee.
The Judgment (Ireland) Bill passed through Com-
mittee.

The Enlistment, Artillery, and Ordnance Bill was
read a third time.

The Chapels of Ease (Ireland) Bill was passed through
Committee, and the House adjourned at a Quarter to Ten
o'clock.

wished to condemn without II hearing—(Hear)—iu jus-
tice to them this point should bo settled.
Mr. SCULLY agreed that a proclamation would have
been useful, but the occurrences having taking place
without any such precautionary measure, the feelings of
the people were very much- eecited, especially when they
remembered three magistrates had been summarily dis-
missed for attending repeal meetings. No inquiry took
place on the clses, and they formed surely a sufficient
ground for calling for summary justice in this case. He
would, however, suggest to his Honourable Friend to
withdraw his motion in the mean time, upon the under-
standing that after the investigation was closed, all the
correspondence on the subject should be laid on the
table. In the meantime he thought the immediate
object, that of calling the attention of- the House to the
matter, bad been fully attained.—(Hear, bear.)
After a brief explanation from Lord CASTLEREAGH,
Mr. HAMILTON deprecated such discussions while
the question was undergoing a judicial inquiry. They
were only calculated to inflame still more the already ex-
cited feelings of the people.
Mr. H. GRATRAN agreed that the less said ate
better, at present—(Hear, hear)—and nr.:ay rose to

. ,
suggest that the inquiry should be ext,aded io the oc-
currences near Behest.
Mr. AIiCHDALL wished only to say that he had no
fear but that the character of the Orangemen would
come out of the inquiry with honour. With respect to
the Member for Dublin, he complained of language that
had been used towards him, but he could only repeat,
the.; when an Hon. Member inflamed the feelings of
party and religious animosity, he was only worthy of
scorn and contempt.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that after the appeal that had
been made to him he could not refuse to withdraw his
motion—(Hear, hear)—though, at the same time, he had
not such faith in the impartiality of the Lord-Lieutenant
as was claimed by the Home Secretary. He believed
that great good would result from this discussion, and
rejoiced that he had brought the subject befoie the
House. He had confidence of the sense of justice of the
Secretary for the Home Department, but he believed
thatjustice should be more rapidly and rigidly adminis-
tered in the present case than it had ever been done

before.
Lord NAAS reminded the House that when the Go-

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 26.
ORANGE PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND.

vcrnment some years ago had expressed a wish that
Orange Lodges should be dissolved, Lord Roden took
the odium of that act on himself, and it was mainly
owing to his influence that those societies had been
dissolved.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL considered that the Govern.
ment, instead of administering justice in this case with

rapid vindictiveness, ought to pursue their course steadily
and deliberately.

Mr. REYNOLDS then rose, pursuant to notice, to
move for "Copies of any correspondence between the
Government of Ireland and the civil and military autho•
rities :of the county of Down, relating to processioris,
public meetings, or armed assemblages of the people on
the 12th day of this instant July." The greatest pis-
tibia excitement existed in Dublin and elsewhere at the
delay of a proper inquiry into these atrocious murders.
These violent proceedings of the Orangemen had beEn
too long tolerated. Referring to what he had said of
Lord Roden, he spoke not of his private, but of his poli-
tical, character; and, if he violated the law, his conduit,
like that of every other man, should be open to investi-
gation.
Sir GEORGE GREY explained that an inquiry was
going forward, and he thought that no good could cotie
of the,lo observations.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that a violent, malicious, and
wanton aggression had been made upon the people, and
if the fullest assurance was not given of an inquiry and
searching investigation, he feared it might manifest itself
in an unpleasant maniirr during . her Majesty's antici-
pated visit, which should be one of peace and good will.
Was not every armed procession a violation of the law?
He had the authority of the Right Hon. Baronet that
it was. What, then, was there to prevent the Attor-
ney General instituting a prosecution ? The Right
Honourable Gentleman probably wished not to pre-
judge the question before inquiry. But that would
not satisfy the people.--(Hear, hear.) The people
were 'beginning to think that this Orange Asso-
ciation was part and parcel of the Church Temporalities,
which had caused so much heart-burning, and so much
bloodshed, already. He thought the Government ought
to be obliged to him for calling attention to the subject,
and giving them an opportunity of disclaiming all sym-
pathy with the perpetrators of this outrage. Was it not
disgraceful, that 1,500 men, armed to the teeth, should,
within two hours after being feasted in the domain of a
Peer, have fired upon the people, and that one of the
officers in command of the police should have called it an
" all-round-my-hat affair 2" He did not think that very
dignified language for an officer in the service of the
Government, nor did he know what " all round my hat"
meant—(A laugh)—at least not in this instance. He
found that not a single Orangeman was in custody.
They had transported Smith O'Brien, Mitchell, and
Meagher, for what was called treason and sedition, and
these Orange murderers were surely at least equally de-
serving punishment. He called for justice upon Lord
Roden, Mr. Beard, and the other magistrates who had
been accessory to those murders, and he repeated, that
the Government were bound to execute at least as sum-
mary justice as they had in former cases, when the
offending magistrates were of a different persuasion.
The Ron Member, after some further observations, con-
cluded by moving the motion of which he had given
notice.

The motion was then withdrawn, and the House ad-
journed shortly before Eight o'clock.

RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS.
BRISTOL, Jrn 26. •
STOCK Excuadc6E.—The market continues firm, though not active,
The transactions to-day were principally confined to Great We,staii,
171. Shar_ s, which closed at 3% dls.
LIVERPOOL, Juts 26.

STOCK ExcnaNcx.—The share market was dull to-day, and
few transactions took place. Prices had a. downward tendency. The
safes are—Birmineham and Oxford, guaranteed, 2Gl,4—Glasgow,
Paisley, and Greenock, Preference; 7)4 —Lancashire and Yorkshire,
Fifths, 3 dis.—Ditto, 321. Shares, 04 dis.—London and North-
Western, 132—Ditto, New Quarters, 3 c. p.—Shrewsbury and
Chester, Preference, 15 yB—South-Eastern and Dover, New (No. 2),
1234 dis.

MINCIIESTER, JULY 26.
STOCK EXCLIANGE.—The transactions to-day were as follow :
Glasgow and Dumfries, 4%—Manchester and Leeds. Fift:is, 3 3-16
dis.—Manchester and Sheffield, Eighths, 4 7-16 North Stafford-
shire, 5)4 dis.—Sheffield, Preference, 11%—West Riding Union, 4%
dis.—Eastern Counties, B%—Ambergate3, 5% dig.
BIRAIINGBAM, JOLT 26.
STOCK Excnerms.—The transactions to-day were as follow:
Ambergate, Nottingham and Boston, 51, dis.—North British, Pre-
ference, 1-3 p.—North Staffordshire, r dis.—Shrewsbury and Mr-
Minghann (A), 61. 3s. 9d. dis.—Shropshire Union, 2 dis.— South
Staffordshire, 5 dis. •
_a_

After a short pause it was seconded by Mr. SCULLY.
adhe
Sir G. GREY heopei that the few reasons he
to th
bad stated previous speechn of the Hon. Member,
would have induced the -h Member to refrain from
making his motion.
simply
spltyhelonfine not had that effect,
to should in reply himself to repeating
that an inquiry into the circumstances having been or•
dered, it would he most partial a
adinmd unjust to produce
any papers before that inquiry was
The Lord-Lieutenant had directed a strict ldesar,a hear.)g
investigation to be made into all the circumstances n- ,
c
nected with this most lamentable occurrence. The Hon.o
'
Member for Dublin called upon the Government to act
with vigour, but he must say that, in his opnion, if
they seed in the spirit which characterised the Hon.
Member's speech, they would give very little satisfac.
Lion in Ireland. Iu the steps he had hitherto taken, the
Lord-Lieutenant had acted in the most impartial and
discriminating manner, and he thought the House would
agree with him in thinking that the affair had better be
left in the hands of that Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not, at the present stage of the business, say
more; but befora sitting down, he wished to say one
word relative to a dinner, an account of which had ap-
peared in one of the Dublin papers. The H. . Member