The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-08 00:00:00

~)\k),)&- -N.\)-)il'A-0

No. 14,192.

21 .I

WITH WHICH THE " TRUE SUN" IS NOW INCORPORATED.

ADJOURNED DEBATE.
CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
The Order of the Day having been read for resuming the
adjourned debate,
Mr. LEADER rose to offer a few observations on the sub-
ject. He could assure the House he would detain them but a few
minutes, because from the pain he was suffering, he could not,
even if he were disposed, address the House for any lengthened
period. The main question brought forward by his Hon.
Friend had been entirely set aside, and the debate had
been narrowed to a discussion upon the late revolt,
and the causes which had led to it, and the conduct
of the Government, as stated in the amendment of the Noble
Lord. The great question of the difficulties in which the
colonies were at present involved, and the inaptitude of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, had
been put entirely aside, in order that the debate might be-
come a mere party question, and that there might be a
discussion—not whether the colonies were well or ill governed
—not whether the colonial policy was well or ill administered
by the Government—but whether the Gentlemen now on the
Treasury bench should keep their places, or make way for
Gentlemen opposite. And it was quite right that a Minister
(Lord Palmerston), who had not been out of office for the
last quarter of a century—( Laughter)—should answer,
or attempt to answer his Hon. Friend, for the Noble Lord had
utterly failed so to do. It was curious to observe the error ieto
which the Noble Lord had fallen with respect to the manner in
which the Hon. Bart. ( Sir W. Molesworth) meant to introduce
the question. The Noble Lord appeared to have supposed
that the Hon. Baronet was gcing to make a violent democra-
tic speech, and to confine his notice of the Colonial-office to
the mal-administration of Canadian affairs alone. Accord-
ingly, the Noble Lord came down to the House fully
prepared to defend the present policy with respect to Canada,
but totally unprepared to answer the charges which were
brought against the Government with regard to the
other colonies.—(Hear, hear.) He confessed that it
was a matter of surprise to him that the Noble Lord should
have taken credit to the Government for the manner in which
the affairs of Canada had been administered.—( Hear, hear.)
It did appear to him that it required a long expe-
rience of office and something of the brazen face
which one acquired by a familiar acquaintance with it—
( Hear, hear, and laughter)—to enable the Noble Lord to
make the avowal which be did, of the gratification which
he felt at having a share in the misgovernment of Ca-
nada.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had been pleased
to taunt his Hon. Friend with having failed to make
out a case in support of his motion. Now he contended
that the failure was entirely on the side of the Noble
Lord, for he had not succeeded in answering one
single point in the speech of his Honourable Friend.
The Noble Lord was pleased to say that this was an unjust
and ungenerous attack. It seemed to him ( Mr. Leader) that
this was a strange charge to bring against an Hon. Member--
that his course had been ungenerous. As a public man he
had made a statement in his public capacity against a Minister
of the Crown, for having badly and negligently attended to his
duty. If there was any thing ungenerous in such conduct he
(Mr. Leader) was at a loss to understand how any Minister
could be responsible to the House.—( Cries of " Hear,
hear.") It seemed to him that the Ministers would
have a complete sinecure if they might be negligent
in the management of their department, and yet be screened
from any charge, because of its being ungenerous. As to its
being unconstitutional, he need not weary the House with
precedents, for every Gentleman must be aware of them. But
whether there were precedents or not, the case was one of
such urgency, that the country would decide whether his
Hon. Friend was justified in bringing forward his statement,
showing the great difficulty in which our Colonial Empire was
placed ; and clearly showing, from the sins of omission and
commission of the Noble Lord, that he was not the
fittest man in the country, or rather that he was
the most unfit Minister, that could be placed
there to grapple with the difficulties which at present me-
naced almost every one of our colonial possessions. The
Noble Lord said he was surprised at the quarter from which
the attack came. He said he should not have been sur-
prised at the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel), or the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stan-
ley), bringing forward such a motion. But to be attacked
by Members who had acted with them, who profess to be more
liberal than they themselves were, was most strange.
Now it appeared to him that they, of all others, were the
persons most called upon to attack the Government, when
they considered they ought to be attacked, because, for
some time past they had trusted the Government—they
had supported it—they had believed its liberal pro-
fessions ; and now, when they found themselves de-
ceived, they were imperatively called upon to discharge
their duty, by stating that they no longer placed
the confidence in the Government they had hitherto reposed.
—( Opposition cheers.) The Noble Lord had referred to a
meeting at Bodmin in October last, and had tried to fix upon
his Hon. Friend a charge of inconsistency, for having then
said something in favour of the Government, and now at-
tacking them. There really was in the whole of the Noble
Lord's statement something that savoured strongly of the
Foreign Office—there was a great deal of diplomatic sup-
pression of facts in that statement.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
And then by way, he presumed, of raising a laugh at his ( Mr.
Leader's) expense, he said that the Hon. Member for
Westminster had returned thanks on the pert of her Majesty's
Ministers. He was sorry to intrude upon the House in a
matter so purely personal ; but as the Noble Lord had intro-
duced the subject he could not avoid referring to it, and he must
add, that the Noble Lord in his statement had very much
misquoted what had occurred. The fact was that the Chair-
man, without communicating with him ( Mr. Leader), proposed
the health of her Majesty's Ministers, so long as they studied
the interests of the people ; and he said he would couple with
it what he believed to be a fair coupling--the Reformers
of Westminster, that being the place where they held
their sittings, and he then gave her Majesty's Ministers
so long as they -studied the interests of the Reformers
of Great Britain. He (Mr. Leader) felt called on to
return thanks for the Reformers of Westminster ; and
when be considered that at the late election several of her
Majesty's Ministers had done him the honour of voting for
him—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear," from the Opposi-
sition benches)—he really thought that there would be some-
thing very ungracious in not returning thanks to the toast.
That would be casting them off without any trial, be-
cause they had had no trial under a new reign, and there-
fore it was he stated at the meeting that he had no-
thing to do with the Ministers—that he was delighted
to return thanks for the Reformers of Westminster—
but that with respect to Ministers he should pursue the same
course he had always done, and that whenever he found that
supporting the Ministers was on one side, and his principles on
the other, he should then sacrifice the Ministers to his principles.
Was that, he would ask, supporting Ministers ?—( Cheers. )
But supposing that he had supported them, had not circum-
stanees taken place since that time that would justify him in
changing his opinion? He should like to know whether Ministers
had forgotten the declaration of the Noble Lord the Member
fur Stroud, that no reform was necessary? Did they not recol-
lect the manner in which they had hurried through the Civil
List—a Civil List, he would venture to say, more extravagant
than had ever vet been brought forward ? His lion. Friend the
Member for Kilkenny reminded him that since that time the
suspension of the Canadian Constitution took place. The Noble
Lord in referring to the meeting, wished, he supposed, to bring
a charge of inconsistency against the Radicals. If such was the
case, in his opinion, it was a most strange charge to come
from him as a Minister.—( Hear, hear.) Then in defending
the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, the
Noble Lord at the head of Foreign Affairs seemed surprised
that the Colonial Department had been chosen as the object of
attack. Now, it seemed to him (Mr. Leader) that there
was something to justify that surprise.—( Hear, hear.)
He thought there were many matters connected with the ad-
ministration of Foreign affairs which would not give satisfac-
tion to the country. He believed the Noble Lord's depart.
ment was open to attack. Perhaps the hint would not
be thrown away, and perhaps Gentlemen who felt an interest
in foreign affairs would give the Noble Lord an opportunity of
vindicating his conduct.—( Hear, and a laugh.) In defend-
ing his Noble Colleague, the Noble Lord did not refute the
statements made by his lion. Friend, but said Lord Glenelg
was a man of an amiable disposition, a man of pious character,
a man of great acquirements, and a man for whom he
had a very great regard indeed. That might be all very
well.; but it was no answer to the statement made by his Hon.
Friend. Lord Glenelg was charged by his Hon. Friend with
having badly administered the Colonial Government. The an-
swer to that had been that Lord Glenelg was a most
amiable and accomplished man in, private life. It might
be all very well for the purpose of the Noble Lord to put
the matter in the way he had ; but his Honourable Friend
had never made a charge against Lord Glenelg because the
system was bad—.he had never charged him with having
brought on the Colonies the evils that existed before he
came into office—all his Hon. Friend stated was this,which was
not only unanswered but was unanswerable, because it was
strictly true, namely that Lord Glenelg had not administered
with decision, firmness, or activity that Colonial system, whether
good or bad, which he was called on by the duty of his office
to administer.—( Hear, hear.) Last of all, the Noble Lord
said, censider what would be the result of his Hon. Friend suc-
ceeding in his motion, that the country would have the great
misfortune to loso their services, and there would be the ter-
rible evil of the anti-Reformers coming into power!—
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Leader) confessed he was not
very much frightened by that prospect, for it was
his firm belief that there was very little difference
indeed between the present Ministers and any Tory Ministers
which might succeed them. —( Hear.) Moreover, it was his
belief the country would not lose by the change ; and he
would state his reasons for that belief. At present they had
a Government acting on Tory principles.—(Cries of " No,
no.") Whatever their professions might be, lie maintained
that they were acting on Tory principles—( Hear, hear)
—and what was more important, controlled by a very powerful
Tory opposition. —( Hear, hear.) If the Gentlemen opposite
were in power they would then indeed have a Government
acting on Tory principles; but they would have a liberal,
vigilant opposition to control them, and the country would

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1838.

be in as good a position one way or the ether.
He did not mean to say that that was the position of the
House that he should like to see ; but still the prospect
held out by the Noble Lord to deter the House from proceeding
with the original motion was not so gloomy as he would have
Hon. Members to believe. He should now make a few observa-
tions in reference to the amendment moved by the Noble Lord.
It seemed that the Noble Lord was induced from personal
motives to abstain from supporting the motion of his Hon.
Friend. It seemed to him that the original motion and the
amendment would have the same effect to blame the Govern-
ment, in consequence of their colonial affairs ; and conse-
quently, of course, to blame the Noble Lord at
the head of the Colonial Department—( Hear, hear)—
but it seemed that such was the personal friendship
of the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool for the Noble
Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, that he thought
it better that it should be declared that the affairs of the colo-
nies had been badly administered or neglected, rather than
his personal friend should be subjected to any pain, or any
thing in the shape of censure pronounced by that House.
That might be very well for the Noble Lord, but it did not
seem to him ( Mr. Leader) to he the way in which a
public man ought to view public matters. He thought that
private friendship should give way to public duty. He presumed
the Noble Lord thought it would be impossible for him ( Mr.
Leader) or any person on his side of the House to vote for the
amendment. Now he entirely concurred in the main object
of the amendment, which was to censure the Government for
their bad administration of the Colonial Affairs ; but he could
not concur with the preamble of the amendment. With
that part of it which threw a slur upon and branded in very
harsh terms the unfortunate Canadians, who from a series of
misgovernment had been driven into a state of revolt, .hc, was
ready to confess that they had been very imprudent and
rash, but they had been deluded by this country, and if they
had succeeded as the Americans had succeeded, they would have

mixed up the question with any thing- approaching to
party politics. At the time Mr. Burke laid the ground-work
of a general reform in the Government of the colonies, did he
endeavour, by criminating any particular individual, to make
converts to his general principle of reform ?—had he mixed
it up with party politics ?—and was not his Honour-
able Friend taking the most likely means to enlist
all the prejudices of the House on the one side or the
other? He agreed with his Honourable Friend in his ge-
neral remarks on the administration of some of their prin-
cipal Colonies ; but if he (Mr. W.) wanted to in-
troduce such a plan, would he commence by criminating
the Administration—would he not rather attack the
system, and make his observations as general as possible, in
order to have both sides of the House to concur with him ?
On these grounds, he could not agree with his Honourable
Friend the Member for Leeds. It behoved his Honourable

Friend, and the party with whom he acted, if party they
might be called, so to shape his motion as not to
make it the subject of an imputation on any individual.
'On these grounds it was impossible for him to concur with the
motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Leeds. He had
stated that, with respect to him (Mr. W.) that was not the fact.
He said that he had advocated the principle that this country
would be better without Colonies. That was not the case;
he was an advocate for Colonies, hut what he had
said was, that when Colonies had grown up from in-
fancy to manhood, it would be impossible to treat them
as children. He would now come to the amendment of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, and would state the
grounds on which he felt it to be his duty to oppose that amend-
ment. Now, what was the effect of that amendment? Why, in
the very first part of it there was an approximation to the resolu-
tions that were introduced in that House on the 16th of
January by the Noble Lord, the Leader of that House.
He found in that amendment a complete affirma-
tion of all the principles of those resolutions, and
the only difference was the manner in which those principles
were carried out.—( Cheers.) How, therefore, could he who
had resisted the principles laid down in those resolutions
adopt an amendment which virtually contained them ?
He should therefore vote against the resolution of the
Hon. Baronet, and the amendment of the Noble Lord the
Member for Liverpool.
Mr. LITTON would not have presumed to trespass on
the attention of the House if it had not been for the assertion
made by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, who opened the debate on behalf of the Government,
and by the Honourable Member for Marylebone, with
respect to the state of Ireland.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He thought that as an Irish Member he would not be doing
his duty if he did not protest against that statement, and if he
suffered it to pass uncontradicted, and to go forth to English-
men. It had been stated by this Noble Lord and this Hon.
Gentleman—first, that Ireland was now in a tranquil
state, and next, that that tranquillity was owing to the pre-
sent Government, and would be likely to be destroyed by the
coming in of a Conservative Government. He wholly denied
the state of Ireland deserved the epithet of tranquillity—he
wholly denied it was in a state to justify that description. On
the contrary, he thought wherever the law was sought to be
enforced it had been met with resistance and violence, and
that it was only where combination and force had been
yielded to by compulsion that the districts in Ireland were
tranquil.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted there was a certain
portion of Ireland where the rights of the landlord, and the
rights of the clergy, and the rights of the voter, to exercise
their just privileges, had been successfully put down ; he ad-
mitted that fears, and terror, and threat had had the effect of
preventing the landlord from exercising his fair prerogative
over his tenant, of preventing the clergyman from insisting
on his due rights, and of preventing the voter from exer
cising the fair privilege of his elective franchise—where
that had been successful, and where the fear and terror of
injury to life and property had prevented the exercise of their
just rights. If that were to be called tranquillity he admitted
that those districts were tranquil. But he did assent with a
confidence which an intimate knowledge of the fact
enabled him to assume, that wheresoever the land-
lord in the southern and western parts of Ireland sought
to exercise his rights as between himself and his tenant—
where for one tenant he presumed to substitute another—that
both the life and property of the landlord and the substituted
tenant were made the subject of attack. He asserted that
where the Clergy insisted on their rights they were met by
attacks, by bloodshed, and assassination ; and he also asserted
there were many cases where the voters, exercising their fair
privilege of voting, had been the subject of animadversion, of
threat, of terror, of annoyance, and of actual injury. If that were
so, could the country in which those things existed be called
tranquil ? Was it to be said that Ireland was tranquil, where, if a
man but exercised his vote, as was done by Mr. Guinnes, one of
the first and most liberal merchants of Dublin—a gentleman
who :had ever supported Liberal principles—who supported
the Catholic claims—and who was at one time looked to
for the Liberal candidate : was it to be said that when he ex-
ercised his fair right of voting against the sitting Members
for Dublin, his property was to be attacked in open day, and
a combination to be entered into to deprive him of his busi-
ness ? And yet this had been so. He should certainly not
go upon this subject, which to a certain extent might be
called a collateral one, into minute facts; but it was per-
fectly well known that if terror and threat were
yielded to, there was peace. But if the rights of
property were insisted upon, there was nothing but
threats and terror with loss of property and loss of life. It
had been said that the present Government of Ireland had
pursued a policy tending to tranquillize that unhappy country,
To that proposition also he gave his direct dissent. Their
partial conduct had brought on them the greatest possible
obloquy. They were considered to be in the power, and under
the direction of, one set of men, or rather of one man ofstrong
political bias, so that all they did appeared to be done under
his direction.—( Hear, hear.) There was, consequently,
not preservation of life or property of one particular
class of her Majesty's subjects in that country, and he
attributed to the vacillating way in which the affairs
of that country were administered, and to the fact of the
Government of that country yielding to the dictation of one man,
and the want of power in itself to take any bold eters, the evils
which Ireland laboured tinder. It was asked, would the sub-
stitution of a Conservative Government remedy those evils?
It was brought in upon this debate as one of the ele-
ments of the case, to induce Members on both sides
of the House to refuse their support to the Noble
Lord's amendment, because, however deserving of censure her
Majesty's Ministers might be, a vote of censure being passed
upon them might shake their Government, and cause a Con-
servative Government to be substituted in Ireland in lieu of them.
He (Mr. Litton) believed it would he for the benefit of Ire-
land that the Government of that country should be changed.—
„ Question,"" Chair," and" Hear," from the Opposi-
tion.) What benefit had the Government of Ireland confered
upon the 99-100ths of the people of Ireland ? Political aspirants
had obtained places—pots of honour and profit conferred—
but had the condition of the lower classes been improved ?
Had they been in any way benefited by the present Govern-
ment ? On the contrary. had they not been brought into the
arena of political dispute? Had not their small earnings been
the exigencies of those, who, for their own
lessened to supply
selfish purposes,
had made them their tools and slaves?—
( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) A Conservative Govern-
ment would confer great benefits upon Ireland. A Conservative
Government would disdain to be dictated to by any set of
men ; but would de justice to all classes of Her Majesty's
subjects. And he thotight that it would be fortunate for the
country if the te,ult of the present motion was to substitute for
the present Ministry, a faithful, bold, and manly government in
Ireland.
Mr. DUNLOP said he would not follow the Hon. Gen-
tleman, who had just sat down, through the Irish debate which
he had endeavoured to introduce.—( Hear, hear.) The I-louse
was pledged by many divisions upon most important subjects,
to a certain line of policy in regard to Ireland, contrary
to that which Hon. Gentlemen opposite advocated.—( Hear.)
One of the charges against the present Administration was,
that they had been slow iu sending forces to replace
those which had been taken from Nova Scotia.--( Hear. )
He was of opinion that the presence of an additional body of
troops in Nova Scotia would not have been productive of any
advantage to this country. He did not go the length of saying
that the presence of a large body of ts'oops in Lower Canada
might not have prevented the insurrection ; but this was not
the question, for it appeared by the papers which had been
laid upon the table of that House, that there were no grounds to
justify the Government in sending additional troops to Canada.
He differed from the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool
when he said that it was a disadvantage to the Government to
be obliged to accept the assistance of volunteers. So far was
he from thinking that to be the case, that lie was of opinion
it would show the world that they did not seek to main-
tain the Constitution, or to vindicate the powers of the
law, by an overwhelming body of troops, but that
they preferred relying on the loyalty and attachment of the
Colonists. lie thought the Government had acted wisely in
not raising any hostile feeling either in Canada or the United
States, by sending a large body of troops to do that which had
been as well effected without them. He thought that the
Government had gained a very great point by the manner in
which they had acted. They had shown that the strength of
the Crown was more securely based on the affections than the
fears of the people.—( Hear, hear.) It was because lie wished
to maintain the Administration that he had always acted on this
principle, and because he did not think that any grounds had
been shown for the charges of neglect and culpability, that he
refused to assent to the motion of the Noble Lord.
Sir F. 'TRENCH totally differed from the lion. Gentle-
man who had just sat dawn, for lie thought that volunteers
were not the best to put down a revolt or insurrection. Dis-
sensions were sown by such an attempt, passions of another
description entered into the contest, and that which could be
done with better effect by the troops of the line would be done
with mischievous effect by volunteers. The Hon. Gentleman
regretted that this should be made an Irish debate. He ( Sir
F. Trench) did not intend to mention Ireland, further than
to express his surprise at what fell from the Noble
Lord, the Secretary for the Foreign Department. He
was pleased in a sneering way to say that a Conser-
vative Government might administer the affairs of Ca-
nada, but what would they do in Ireland ? The inference

been held up as the Americans had been, as patriots. He could
not agree to brand them with harsh names, because they had
not succeeded. He was sorry there had been any revolt in
Canada, but ho could not consent, now that they had been de-
feated, to add insult to the miseries they had suffered.
For that reason, it would be utterly impossible for him
to vote for the amendment of the Noble Lord. What-
ever might be the result of the motion or of the
amendment, one good would be effected by the conduct of
his Honourable Friend the Member for Leeds, and that
was, that the attention of the country would be called
to the subject of our vast colonial empire to con-
sider the difficulties, and to insist that the affairs
of it should be better administered for the future.
If Members on either side of the House were to look
into the subject calmly and dispassionately, without reference
to any party feeling, they would see that at no distant period
the country ought to be grateful to his Hon. Friend for having
called their attention to the subject of colonial affairs, and
having directed the attention of the people to the subject,
which unfortunately caused no great interest in the country at
present.
Mr. HOBHOUSE then addressed the House—we un-
derstood him to say for the first time—but in so low
a tone of voice that we could not,' without difficulty,
collect the purport of what he said. We believe
he intimated that he could not vote for the original
motion or the amendment. It had been said that an attack
ought to have been made upon the chief of the Foreign De-
partment. But there was a good reason why that course should
not be taken. The head of that department was in that House,
while the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Office was not
able to defend himself there except by means of subordinates.
There appeared to him to be a most material difference be-
tween the spirit and policy which governed the actions of
Gentlemen at that, and Gentlemen at the other side of the
House. It might be that they agreed on some things which were
of minor consideration, but on all questions of importance there
was a wide ground of distinction between them. Gentlemen
at his side of the House had not shown themselves the sup-
porters and advocates of a system of misgovernment in Ireland.
—(llear, hear.) They had not endeavoured to coun-
teract the progress of civil and religious liberty.—( Hear. )
They had been told by the Hon. Member that he
would not address himself to the unconstitutional character of
the proceedings in Canada. He had another and better
reason for this, for he knew there was not a man in that House
who did not believe that the policy pursued by her Majesty's
Ministers was constitutional, and that the first infraction of the
ConsCtution proceeded from the rebels themselves.—( Hear.)
In the former debates which took place on this question he
had heard it said that there was an analogy between the cha-
racters of the Imperial and Colonial Legislatures, and that
what was done by one might be done by the other. By the
same parity of reasoning he contended that the first viola-
tion of the Constitution was on the part of the Canadians
themselves, for if they were to 'proceed in all cases by ana-
logy, his Mon. Friend ought to take all its consequences.
For what purpose was the right of withholding the supplies
granted to the Colonial Legislature? That right, he freely
admitted, was not granted so much for the purpose of pre-
venting maladministration as to enable the House of
Assembly to obtain a redress of their grievances,
by controlling the other branches of the Legislature. Now
the Canadians were perfectly right in attempting to influence
their own Legislature, but not in attempting to control or dic-
tate to the Imperial Parliament. They had attempted to apply
the influence which they possessed to a branch of the Legislature
over which they had no control whatever. He would pars
over the observations made by his Hon. Friend on this point,
but he thought he had said sufficient to convince the House
that there was an essential difference between an attempt on
the part of the Canadians to control the Colonial Legislature
and to dictate to that House. He would now proceed to
address himself to the motion of the Noble Lord opposite.
He was not disposed to give his assent to the proposal of the
Hon. Member for Leeds. It appeared to him that any pro-
posal more tending to discourage a Colonial Minister, more
tending to encourage the rebels in Canada—( Hear)—more
calculated to bring about that state of things they were anxious
not to defend, could not have been enunciated. The Noble
Lord had taken stronger ground than the Hon. Baronet had
done. But when he complained of the Ministers not sending
troops to America, he was perfectly astonished, because
history showed that collisions had generally taken place in the
presence of the troops themselves. This was the case at
Boston during the American war of independence. It had
not beets stated that, in the present intance, evil consequences
had resulted from the absence of troops—they did not know
that the presence of troops might not sooner have promoted
the insurrection.—((lear, hear, hear.) It was said that the
inst. uctions of the Government, were fluctuating and unsteady;
)tit it was not by unsteady operations of the Government, but
the resolutions which wore taken in the last year, which pro.
rooted the insurrection.—( Hear.) It seemed to bins ( Mr.
that there was an anxicus desire to prevent the effusion
of blood—( Cheers)—a desire which lion. Gentlemen oppo-
site had not participated in, for every men recollected the
ffusion of blood which took place during the different
periods when they were in power.—( Hear, hear, end
cheers.) He had no doubt that Hon. Members opposite
would have given troops, and plenty of troops, and he was
quite certain that the colony would then have been in a state
which no man could contemplate without horror. But he
( Mr. II.) was very much convinced, by the arguments of the
Gentleman who spoke last in the debate last night. Ile showed
that there was no demand for troops till September, 1837.
Arid he showed that it-would have beets at that time impos
siblc fur the troops to enter the St. Lawrence. He was not
willing to trouble the House at much length.—( Hear. ) He
thanked the House for the indulgence which it had extended
to him already, and upon which he was unwilling to trespass.
Although the rebellion was now partially—indeed be might
say totally—put down, there was yet a possibility of its being
renewed, and the conduct of Gentlemen opposite was calculated
to provoke it.--( Hear, from the Ministerial benches.) When
the resolutions respecting Canada, were proposed by the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, an
amendment was proposed by a Right Hon. Gentleman Oppo-
site, and that amendment was received with great indulgence
by that (the Ministerial side) of the House.—( Ironical
cheers from the Tory benches.) He was rejoiced at that.
( Renewed Tory Cheers.) Gentlemen might cheer, but he
was no partisan of the Government. He was an independent
Member, but he thought that the Government was right in
consideration of the importance of unanimity in the
House at such a crisis in the affairs of the colony.
He thought that Honourable Gentlemen opposite ought
not now to disturb that unanimity for the chance of put-
ting themselves in office. If unfortunately they succeeded,
what would be the consequence? They would fan the expir-
ing flame of rebellion, and as they would be embarrassed by
the opposition of Gentlemen now on that side of the House,
they would give encouragement by their division to
the hopes of the rebels, and the revolt might be renewed
and terminate in tarnishing the glory of this empire.
He did hope that the amendment of his Noble Friend would be
withdrawn, and that there would be some unanimity on the
present occasion—that both the lion. Gentlemen would
reserve their party contentions, and their party animo-
sities, till a period when they could be indulged in
without any evil results. He had alluded already to
the course pursued in America, and he would now conclude by
reciting to the Lion. Gentlemen on the other side of the
House what had been said by a great writer of Lord Camden
and Mr. Pitt,. afterwards Earl of Chatham—men far greater
than themselves—( Hear and a laugh)--" That while they
meant no more than the ruin of a Minister, they had in fact
divided one half of the empire from the other." The Hon.
Member concluded by thanking the House for its indulgence.
Mr. WAR BURTON had no intention of going over the
question of the state of the colonies, but merely wished to
state the grounds upon which he would give his vote upon the
question before the House. And first, with respect to the
motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Leeds. He was
sure that many Hon. Members on that and the other side of
the House—many Whigs, Tories, and Radicals, were of opinion
that the present constitution of the Colonial Office was not
adequate to the proper administration of the affairs of their
vast Colonial Empire.—( Hear.) But if his Hon. Friend had
intended to move for a general reform in the management of
colonial affairs, he could not have taken a cause lss likely
to be effective. --(Hear, hear.) He should not have

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PRICE sd.

Criminal Code, upon a corrupt ParHa-
-Lary _.tion, which had been replaced in the last
seven years by loyalty, obedience, and unanimity, through the
measures of a Liberal Administration. The agitation caused
by the recession of the Noble Lord, the IllembN. for North
Lancashire, and Sir .James Graham, from the Ministry, had
hardly time to subside, when the sudden immigration of the
Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth into
office gave rise to fresh excitement. Parties were then
more equally balanced ; but, as it had been foreseen, the
Tories were not able to retain their places long. A reforming
Government succeeded, and pursued its course calmly and
steadily, but they were exposed to attack from their own
supporters, for not going to the lengths which they wished,
and he thought it ungenerous of Hon. Members opposite to
reproach the Government for stopping short of their demands.
They had arrived at a state of comparative calmness, how-
ever, when his late Majesty's decease caused a dissolution of
Parliament, and a majority of Whigs was returned, but not
sufficiently decisive to keep down the hopes of the Right lion.
Baronet and his party. Hence they were animated by feel-
ings of disappointed, yet not hopeless ambition—hence they
had the Spottiswoode subscription—( Hear)—hence the deci-
sions of the Election Committees.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
hear," frog: the Opposition Benches.) He could understand
that cheer; and for his own part he would say that he deplored
any decisions, conic from what side of the House they might,
that were not founded ifl justice and fairness.—(Cheers.)
Who were they who now wanted to plunge the country into
embarrassment and confusion? It was the Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and the Noble Lord the
Member for North Lancashire, who sought to ride in on the
motion of the Honourable Baronet the Member for Leeds,
and to upset the present Government.—( Hear.) What was
their object ? To huddle together an Administration of
any sort, and then to trust to their luck at the elections.
The Hon. Baronet could not control his followers, and if he
could so little control them now, how much less would he be
able to do so when they came fres.l,l from the election and in
the moment of victory, and when he had refused the sweets
of office, as he must do, to three-fourths of his impatient fol-
lowers—( Laughter)—how would they recon6.le the contradic-
tory pledges they had given on the hustings—hOr would they
complain of unfulfilled promises—how would he be ane to con-
trol them ? He knew that it would be impossible for lino to do
so. Were it not for the palpable evil of carrying the measure,
he (Mr. Rich) should rejoice to see it carried. It would then
be seen how great was the unanimity of the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite. They would have the Honourable
Member for the University of Oxford presenting petitions
against the Catholic Emancipation Bill, founding a motion
thereon, and applying to the leader cf his party to support
that measure. Then they would have the Hon. and Learned
Member the Recorder for Dublin introducing a motion for
circulating mutilated copies of the Scriptures, and as soon
as he carried that motion, he would carry on his success by
asking the Noble Lord to restore the hierarchy of Ireland
which he had so unmercifully cut down—( Hear, hear),—and
in so doing he would be supported by many of the Orange
Members on his side of the House. How would the Right
Honourable Baronet be able to controul these followers ?
He would not dwell on any more of these glaring inconsis-
teneies.—(Cries of " the Poor-laws.") How would some of
these Honourable Members agree on the Poor Law Amend-
ment Act—that measure, which was one of the most

important ever propounded ? How would they keep
down the exuberance of those parties who were re-
turned on the ground of violently exclaiming against that Act
as the most abominable that ever disgraced the country ? How
would they support the Right Hon. Baronet ?—(Cheers.)
' \Vhat would be the state of Ireland if the gentlemen oppo:ite
should come into office?—(Cheers from the Ministerial
Benches.) For the last two years Ireland had tasted some-
thing of the sweets of peace, and her hopes bad been raised
high, although they had not yet been realized, but the carry-
ing of this resolution would dash the cup from her lips,
and drive her into that state of madness in which the maniac
seeks his own ruin for the purpose of perpetrating that of an
oppressor. But there was a band of Reformers in that House,
who despite of minor differences, would unite to save the
supporters of the resolution from the evils which they would
bring upon themselves, and to save Ireland from the ruin
which their perverse course would entail upon Ireland.
It was not for him to reproach those Reformers, but ho en-
treated them to imitate the example which had been set them
on the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, and to adopt
the moderation and union of men who were as zealous in the
cause of Reform as they themselves were. The division upon
this question would show the policy of those Conservatives
who preached moderation, and practised agitation—who were
desi,ous of driving the country into a series of dissolutions, to
obtain a temporary possession of office. ( Hear, from the Tories. )
They could not deny that dissolution must be the result of
carrying either the resolution or the amendment ; but did
they think that they would be able to resist Reform or to crush
the Irish people—did they think they could affright the people
from their purpose by calling up the ghosts of Old Sarum,
and whirling round the weathercock of Westminster ?—( Great
laughter and cheers.)

Mr. PR Ali D said the speech of the Hon. Member did not
r: quire much reply, as it shad touched upon a variety
of topics in no way connected with the question. The
Hon. Member had accused the Noble Lord (Sandon) with
coming down to the House with a cut-and-dry amendment--
would he have the Noble Lord come down with an impromptu
amendment on such an occasion-4 Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
I'reed) was so favourable to cut-and-dry amendments, that he
could extend his toleration even to cut-and-dry speeches__
(Hear, hear, snd laughter.) He (Mr. Praed) agreed with
almost every word the Hon. Baronet bad said. Respecting
the government of the colonies—their mismanagement—their
importance, the Hon. Baronet had said much that was just, and
wise, and true. With respect to their existing state, he had said
much that at least deserved the attention of any Government.
He thought the motion of the Hon. Baronet had not been
fairly dealt with by some of the Hon. Members who had at-
tempted to answer him. The Noble Lord the Secretary at
War, had asked him was it fair to go into the state of the
Colonial Government, when the Hon. Baronet had admitted
that the misgovernment existed long before the Administration
of Lord Glenelg. That was not the object of the Hon.
Bart. He wanted to show that the difficulties and danger of their
position was such that it ought not to be entrusted to incompe-
tent hands. The Hon. Member for Bridport had accused the
Hon. Baronet of condemning our Colonial system of Govern-
ment, while be attacked an individual, and not the system.
The Hon. Baronet's argument, hoivever, was not that the
system was bad, but that it bad been entrusted to incom-
petent hands, and he called upon the House to remove
him —( Cheers.) With respect to the colony of New South
Wales the Noble Lord's answer had not been so conclusive as
it was considered. The Act for the Government of that co-
lony had expired three years ago, without any attempt having
been made to revive it until the Hon. Baronet had placed his
motion on the paper. There was no more conclusive proof
could be (riven pf the incompetency of Lord Glenelg than was
exhibited in his correspondence with respect to Canada. He
should vote for the amendment of the Noble Lord,
although he would have no objection to support the mo-
tion. —( Hear, hear.) The motion was not of a personal
nature, and ho would remind the House that when Lord
Sandwich's conduct was brought forward the same way by Mr.
Fox, nothing of a personal nature was imputed to him, and
Lord North at once admitted that it was an attack on the
Administration. The amendment of the Noble Lord was of
a distinct character, and on that account he should pr'efer to
vote for it—it left nothing to be understood and it included
the whole Administration within its scope. It had been
alleged that the object of the Amendment was to turn out the
present Administration in order that his (Mr, P.'s) party
might take their places ; but the Hon. Member for Bridport
had stated that the preamble of the amendment rendered it
impossible for him to vote for it. That was a proof that
their object was not to catch stray votes. He was sur-
nrised to find that the Noble Lord had setempted to justify
the rebellion which had lately taken place in Canada.
It was aci,,:itted that up to 1828 the whole course of the
policy of this ,„euntry towards Canada was of the most ben:-
ficent description.
.N2w, be could advert to the evidence or
Mr. Roebuck as to the sta%,..' of Canada up to 1822. In that
year, Mr. • Roebuck, who eas no: then the paid advocate of
the Canadians, but an independent :11e:"ber of the House, pub-
lished a design for the union of the tW: Canadas.—[The
Hon. Member here real an extract from one or !tie Pamphlets
by Mr. Roebuck, in-which he praised the cour“i p:lrsued
br
the Government with respect to Canada.] In his Mr.
P.'s) opinion, the evils of Canada were of a much
more recent date than Honourable Members imagined,
He thought that they were referable to that recent.
period which bad been adverted to in the course of
the debate, but those evils ought in his opinion to have been
foreseen by the existing Government. lie agreed with an
lion. Baronet, who addressed the House late !4.st night, that
it was hard to impute the evils under which Canada laboured to
Lord Glenelg previous to his being in office, but that was the
very reason why it had become a ground of complaint that Mi-
nisters lied not been more watchful. Why. he would ask, did
they wait 6;1 the rebellion broke out ? Why were steps pot
taken to put an end to it before ? It had been said that Lord
Glenelg had shown foresight ; but had Lord Gosford done
so ? Why, the whole of his correspondence showed directly
the reverse.—( Hear' hear, hear.) That Noble Lord went
out to Canada with a full knowledge that the Government at
home were prepared upon a considerable scale to alter the
Legislative Council ; but that Noble Lord, instead of apply,
ing the remedies he had in his power, for the purpose of re.
modelling the Legislative Council, had from time to time
delayed the adoption of that course, upon the pretext that
there would be a difficulty to find persons to sit in the Legis-
lative Council. In the month of June, one month after, Lord
tilitoacthleisatderbe(eAnir.ulsieodbitiohaissee;e%isihoog
saidby tthheat Htohne.
GMoevme
rbaemr
efioi
tr
Gosford began to quake. He was astonished at the argument
uddii
~eihnetiyn oitairlde
oLsnollide h
oosnlo rodi tnoi n
gu s et h
e languageCanadian f
Gthoe.
had acted admirably in sending out no troops to Canada ; but
three cour.-,es to pursue in reference
e.aait'sitil it
nhiten?.
v
to the present motion—one was to vote- the direct negative of
poe fsoirtiotimwdtiloch:aattheo;twahnoitleheragwreaesd
affirmteas
affirm
riltphoes ipbrl
the proposition, which entertaining the opinions he did, it
t with elyvert;
word of it, would not be satisfactory ; and the third
was to suggest an amendment which would have the
effect of putting- forward their views so distinctly as
to avoid the possibility of being mis-understood. 110
I:new the course which the Gcntl,:men on the ether aide

the Howe would take. They would propose that the words
proposed to bc! left out by the ancient do stand
part of the question, and upon that the friends of
the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Leeds, disapproving
of the preamblb of the amendment, would be compelled to
vote with the Government. The Opposition side of the
House had been taunted sith collision, hut let Honourable
Members take the list of votes after this; vote was taken,
and then they would see where, he would not say the
disgraceful but the artful, ?volition was.--( Cheers. )
Sir G. GRE Y wail beicre he addr4.ssed himself to the ob.
servati.ms of the Hon. Member who had just sat do n, he would

upon a sanguinay
mentary represental

remind the House that the original motion of the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Leeds had been almost forgotten--forgotten
till the Hon. Member opposite, without any coalition of
course—taking him under his patronage, dragged Air•
ward the original motion. As to hie. Noble Friend,
Lord Glenelg, under whom he had had the honour of holding
his present office for three years, he should feel it unworthy in
him to follow the lion. Baronet through all his statements ill
reference to that Noble Lord. The lion. Baronet's failure had
been signal ; and, notwithstanding his conduct, which has been
impugned by such formidable number; and not in very scrupulous
terms, it was clear he could not catch the votes he had z-na-
ticipated, come they from what quarter they might. He
should be ready to mci t the lion. Baronet or the Hon.
Member opposite, or both, upon any specific charge against
his. Noble Friend, whenever that charge might be brought
forward. What had been the case here? Feeling the weak-
ness of the case of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Leeds,
it had been said that drafts of the two Bills had been
sent to a gentleman connected with New South Walei,
and that they had been taken up by a gentleman
wholly unconnected with the colony. That had been tacked
to the catalogue of the lion. Baronet's charges. He ( Sir
G. Grey) utterly denied the truth of the assertion.—
( Cheers.) The statement may have been in the Morning
Post, as he believed it was ; and had it rested merely
with those channels of calumny, as they frequently were, he
should have passed it over ; but when it was made by an Hon.
Member in that House, he felt called upon to meet it with
a flat denial. He should be prepared at any moment to
show that every vreat improvement which had been made
in the colony of Nw South Wales, both in reference to the in-
struction of its inhabitants, the discipline of the convicts, and
in other respects, had been arranged since the period of 1831.
He (Sir George Grey) now came to the direct question
before the House. Honourable Gentlemen opposite had
not expected that the Hon. Baronet (Sir W. M.) would have
introduced in his speech only a passing allusion to Canada ;
and it was some time before the Noble Lord ( Sandon) had
courage to move his cut-and dry amendment, as to which the
most cautious concealment had been observed ; it having been
brought forward at twenty-four hours' notice.—( Hear, hear.)
It was a most extraordinary proceeding for Gentlemen oppo-
site, who had agreed to support the policy of the Government
with regard to Canada, to bring forward an amendment, tend-
ing to remove the Government, and to claim for themselves the
exercise of their powers, with which the House had invested
the present Ministers. It was not that Hon. Gentle-
man opposite had exercised such magnaminous forbearance
—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—but the prospect of affairs was
then so clouded, that they would have incurred a very
heavy responsibility had they then opposed the measures of
the Government ; though that would have been a manly
course—(cheers)—but now, after having waited till Her
Majesty's Government had been fully developed—after having
themselves allowed those plans to be sanctioned
by the House without even intimating their intention
to call in question the policy of those plans, what was the
course which had been forced upon the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite—(Cheers)—for pending the discussion upon the
Canada Bill, the Right Honourable Bart. had been invited
to express his opinion upon that policy, and had declined
to do so--(Tremendous cheers from the Ministerial benches,
re-echoed from the Opposition)—now, perhaps, he was
yielding to the pressure of the Right Hon. Member for
Pembroke (Sir James Graham), who not having been in the
House at the time the Canadian Bill was under discussion
was anxious to express his opinions on the conduct of the
Government.—( Cheers.) What was the object of the amend-
ment? Let the Radical Members recollect that it was directed
against the conciliatory part of the Government measures—.
It was not that the Government had adopted coercion, but
conciliation. The Government had been charged with
not having, in 1834, passed a Bill for repealing
the 14th of Geo. I V., which would have been an
infraction of the Canadian Constitution.--( Loud cheers. )
He charged the Noble Lord with inconsistency with respect
to this part of the charge ; for when Sir George Murray
allowed the golden opportunity to slip through his
hands of settling the question by a measure of sound
policy, his Noble Friend, who was then a Member of the
Committee proposed to censure his conduct, and it was
too bad that he should now come forward to accuse
the Ministry of doing that which he censured Sir
George Murray for not doing.—( Hear, hear, hear.) And
now he would say a few words with respect to the Bill,
from the abandonment of which the Noble Lord dated
the commencement of the course of imbecility and weak-
ness with which he charged the Government. In the
winter of 1834 the Government of the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) came into office. It had
been made a matter of boast by the Tories, that during the
five months which they remained in office, Lord Aberdeen
gave the most careful consideration to the affairs of Canada,
and a few days before he quitted office, signed those very in-
structions to Lord Amherst, the suggestions in which had
been since acted on by the Government.—( Hear, hear.)
Had these instructions been referred to he had no hesitation
in declaring that there was recorded on the face of them,
what he thought reflected the highest credit on Lord
Aberdeen, namely, the fixed and deliberate opinion of
that Nobleman that the course of policy proposed by the
Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire with respect
to the Canadas, was a course that could not be pursued with
advantage to the State.—(Hear, hear, and cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) It was there stated by the
Ministers of the Crown, that the only course which
ought to be pursued, was a generous surrender of these
revenues. That was the precise course adopted by the
Government, and now he would leave the Right Hon. Baronet
and the Noble Lord to settle between them their views of
Colonial policy.--(" Hear, hear," an I laughter.) With re-
spect to the opinions of the Commissioners on this sub-
ject, he would just read an extract from the Report to
show that they thought the repeal of this Act would be the
most objectionable mode of meeting the difficulty.—(The
Honourable Baronet here read the passage referred to.)
The passages which he had read were the unanimous obser-
vations of the Commissioners, and he requested the atten-
tion of the House to the observations appended to the
Report by Mr. Gibbs, to which he also called the atten-
tion of the Noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire.
It was desirable before the House came to a vote on the main
question, that it should know whet the Colonial policy was
which was the subject of attack.—(Cheers.) Lord Gosford
went out armed with power to remedy every existing griev-
ance, and be ( Sir G. Grey) was not aware that in any one
instance until the late revolt broke out, that it had been charged
against the Government of Lord Gosford, that he had shown
any incapacity or was deficient in impartiality. The Noble
Lord, the Member for North Lancashire, had also made
a ground of complaint, that, setting aside the recom-
mendation to which he attached so much importance,
throwing in the fire the Report of the Commissioners—the
Government had proposed resolutions which he designated a-
utterly valueless. He (Sir G. Grey) wor.dercd why the
Noble Lord gave these resolutions la t year his stre-
nuous support.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Noble
Lord also read an extract from a dispatch of Lord Gosford,
which seemed to impute to Lord Glenelg the delay which
had existed. He ( Sir G. G.) asked him at the time to
read the next passage, because it was evident he knew
nothing about it. The Noble Lord, on referring to the pas-
sage, found it stated that the delay had arisen from circum-
stances over which he had no control. He asked the House
whether, in the exasperated state of the Colonies, it would
have been possible to have completed a list of Councillors
unobjectionable to all parties.-_(" Hear, hear," from all sides
of the House.) With respect to the increase of the troops in the
Provinces, all the charges made against the Government fo:
want of precaution on that head were answered by the uni-
versal testimony of the majority of the Colonies—by that of
Sir John Colborne, Lord Gosford and Sir Colin Campbell,
that no additional troops were necessary to prevent revolt,
or to suppress it should it break out.
An Hoar. MENIIIF.k on the Tory Benches—You did not send
the troops when you ought.
Sir GEORGE GREY—Two regiments were sent out,
and they arrived, before the insurrection had appeared,
but it was not thought prudent to land them.—( Hear.)
The Resolutions of the Mouse of Commons had been
sent out, professing a wish to conciliate the provinces. If
the troops had been landed, might not the House of
Assembly say that the Imperial Legislature pretended to
leave them a free judgment, and to offer peace, but in
reality intended to establish a militeey es
a :
eponsm, and
had sent out troops to overawe the Assembly, and
intimidate the people?--( Cheers frrnn thelMinisterial benches.)
So long as the Government could pursue in safety a concilia-
tory policy, they had done so,--( Cheers from the Minlete-
rialists,)—a.nd it had been asserted that her Majesty's present
Government had been devoid of foresight, and des-
titute of activity.—(Cheers Roan the Tory benches.)
But in every Colony, except Lower Canada, this policy had
been happy, and attended with the most complete success. In
New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and King Edward's Island,
there had for several years, before Lord Glenelg became Se-
cretary, existed a controversy between the Colony and the Go-
vernment upon precisely the same grounds as that which had
since arisen between the Government and Lower Canada.
It was a controversy in which they were right, and the
Government wreng, and he would go the length of
admitting that they had not been fairly dealt with.—
( Hear, bear.) There was always something kept back,
and distrust on the part of the Government had engendered
distrust in their minds. Such was the state of things when
Lord Gleneig assumed the office of Colonial Minister. In the
year 1(536, the first year of his Administration, a deputation
bed come over from New Brunswick, who were particularly
lenxious that a termination should be put to the
harassing and vexatious delays that had occurred. Lord
Glenelg having diligently applied himself to the subject, bay-
ing communicated with those gentlemen and with his Col-
leagues, and looked at the question is) all its bearings,
adopted a settlement which was entirely satisfactory to them,
by the concession of every demand which, after mature de-
liberation and consultation, he was of opinion they ought to
have. These Gentlemen were not unreasonable—they waived
all their unconstitutional demands and they returned
to the colonies satisfied. He now came to the present position
of the colony. The amendment of his Noble Friend the Member
for Liverpool reverted to the state of the North American Co-
lonies collectively, and he had a right, therefore, to refer to it.
In Oct., IS3ti, the deputation addressed a letter officially
to Lord Glenelg in which they expressed their gratification at
the highly satisfactory conclusion of the negociation with his
Lordship, and that they would be ungrateful
if they did not,
on ship, and
of the inhabitants or New Brunswick, ex-
press their sincere and hearty thanks for the parental solicitude
and perait96ll49terest which his Majesty had taken in the im-
portattattri in which they were engaged. They also ex-
preesed Aisle g teful acknowledgments to his Majesty's Go-
versimint-kstadet for the liberal and enlightened policy they
bad pureteed, ;tor
)
[seed Glenelg in particular for the attention
end contideratitee hick his Lordship had invariably bestowed
el
. -

.7„

-