The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-26 00:00:00

MR. HUNT.

Mr. H. BRIGHT presented a Petition from Bedminster, in
the county of Somerset, in favour of the remission of Mr.
Hunt's sentence.

DISTILLATION.

Mr. BLAIR moved for Returns of the number of Gallons
of Spirits distilled in Scotland, from November 1821 to 1822,
with the names of the Distillers.---Ordcred.

Similar returns of Spirits distilledi;lreland, with returns
of Duties paid thereon, were ordered to be laid befgre the
House.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Lord GRASIVILY4E7gOIifdiSIi presented a Petition
from certain owners and occupiers of land in Monmouthshire,
complaining of agricultural distress, and praying relief from
taxation.

Mr, BIRCH did not wish to bring the case of the agricul-
tural interest into discussion on this occasion, but he must re-
mark, that from the present Petition, and from what had trans-
pired in other quarters, it should seem that the sole object of
the agricultural classes was i.o raise the price of grain. This
would be very injurious. The manufacturers, it was true,
were better off than formerly, but their wages were low, in
some cases not exceeding Bs. a week, on which a man, Int-wife,--
and family had to. subsist. It was therefore impossible for
them to pay a high price for their food. •He had heard that it
had been proposed in the. Committee up stairs, that a sum of
money should be advanced by Government, to ake, as it were,
a .quantity of grain into pawn, with a view of artificially
raising the price. The Government, he thought, would per-
ceive that it was, necessary for them to consider the subject
Very seriously before' they suffered -the landholders to flatter
themselves that a measure so selfish in its character could be
adopted for their benefit. He was of opinion that it was not
from such expedients,relief should be called for. It could only
be afforded by a reduction of the taxes. •
Mr. CALCRAFTsaid, it was curious after the attack which
the Honourable Gentleman had made on the Agricultural
classes, to find that after all he agreed with him exactly on this
petition, which prayed for that reduction'of taxation the Hon.
Gentleman had stated to be necessary. It gratified him to sed
such a petition prlsented by one of the Lords of the Treasury.
He did not see that the Agricultural classes ought to be called
selfish, because, feel'ng themselves aggrieved, they petitioned
that House for relief:-.•

Mr. BIRCH, in evlanation, said he had only meant to
blame those who, in a COmmittee up stairs, had proposed what
he considered a selfish Xrieasure, by suggesting that money
should be advanced by Government on corn, in order to raise its
price artificially.
Sir T. I.E'rH BRIDGE hoped, from seeing a petition pre-
sented on this subject by one of the Lords of the Treasury,
that the case of the Agriculturists would be taken up more
warmly by the Government than it had been, and that stronger
measures would be' brought forward for their relief than had
yet been proposed. He contended that the interests of the
Agriculturists and manufacturing classes were so intimately
connected, that the latter must benefit by the prosperity of the
former. The low wages of which the manufacturers complained
resulted, in a great measure, from the want of that market for
the produce of their industry which was formerly supplied by
the demands of those connected with the landed interest. If a
sum of money were advanced for the relief of the present suf-
ferers, it ought not to excite the jealousy of other classes, as it
would only be following the precedent which had been set a
few years ago, when a similar measure had been adopted for
the relief of the Commercial interest. He thought the Session
could not pass over without some further notice being taken of
the distress now complained of. He for one should think the
Government grossly negligent of their duty, if they suffered it
to reach its close without bringing forward other measures of
relief than what had yet been proposed.
Lord G. SOMERSET thought it his duty to present the Pe-
tition, but he by no means meant to subscribe to all that it,con-
tained. Being respectfully drawn up; he had thought it right
to bring it before the House, without meaning to give an opi-
' nion on the whole of its contents.

The Petition was then ordered to be referred to the Agricul
tural Committee.
SEDITIOUS 'MEETINGS BILL.

On 'the motion of Mr. DENISON, the second reading of the
Seditious Meetings Bill was postponed to the 18th April.
CANADA.

Mr. WILMOT presented a Petition from the Merchants of
Greenock trading to Canada, praying a removal of the Re-
strictions under which that trade laboured.—Ordered to be
printed.

MIDDLESEX C,

IUNTY RATE.

Mr. WM. WILLIAMS moved for an account of the could return to his country: The sum of three hundred pound
Returns made by the different Parishes in the county of afterwards given to him was a provision for his departure, and
Middlesex, to the Quarter Sessions for the purpose of levying at the time it was said there would be no difficulty in giving
the county rate. him a passport. He then applied for a passport of such a na-
Mr. WYNN opposed the motion, upon the ground that ture that it could not be granted, having previously receiv-
the Honourable Member had not shewn any necessity for such ed the sum of three hundred pounds. When that money was
Returns, given to him, if he had not been satisfied at the refusal of
Mr. WILLIAMS said, his object was to shew the unequal such a passport as he demanded, he ought to have returned
and unjust manner in which that rate was levied in Middlesex. it, and placed himself upon the footing where he at first stood.
Mr. WYNN thought that in courtesy to the Members for The receipt of the money under such circumstances was a dis-
the County, they ought to have notice of such a motion. charge of all claims. Under this view of the case he thought
After a few words from Mr. Lushington, Mr. Calcraft, Mr. the House ought to give no further consideration to the matter
Courtenay, and Mr. Williams, of the Petition.
Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the previous question. , Sir R. WILSON said that the General Officers in Sicily had
Dr. LUSHINGTON supported the original motion. It been delivered from a treacherous plot through the means of
was matter of the most serious importance that the House Capt. Romeo, and he should like to Imow if they would consider
should examine into any unequal collection of the County rate. three hundred pounds 'an adequate reward for that service ?
Mr. COURTENAY said, he should have no objection to Mr. HUTCHINSON contended, that it -was quite imp2s-
the motion, if regular notice had been given. sible to say that the sum alluded to was an adequate reward
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that it surely could make no for the losses sustained by Captain Romeo, and the important
difference whether twenty-four hours notice were given or not. services which he rendered to the British army. A Noble
Mr. ELLICE thought the opposition on the part of Mini- Lord who commanded in Sicily declared from his seat last
stern ungracious, after the fact had been stated, that his Hon. year that Captain Romeo had not been sufficiently rewarded.

Oe coureived that it would be, disagreeable to the country if come to the conclusion that then was still something due to his
ehis individual were not to be remunerated for the sacrifices he services.
Bad made. Ile had asked for a passport to his country, which The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the difficulty
was refused, belause at that time there was an effort making to which occurred to him was, that he wanted to know why Capt.
restore its liberties. He knew that he might then return, be- Romeo had concealed that so large a sum of money was due
cause hrinest men were at the head of affairs, at whose hands he to him until 1818 or 1819 ? He was quite sure, with the Noble
should receive justice. Those men were determined to retrieve Lord, that the last thing which the Secretary of State would
their country from its disgrace, and they would have done so be likely to do, would be to apply the Alien Act to such a case
had not the infernal hand of the Allies, who called themselves as the present.
the Holy Alliance, been laid upon them. He trusted that the After a few words from Colonel DAVIES, the petition was.
subject` of the interference of these powers would, during the ordered to be printed.
Session, come regularly before the consideration of both Houses STATE OF IRELAND.
of Parliamerit. If the present system of oppression continued SirT. NEWPORT gave notice, that oy,
his n Monda the 22d of
to be acted upon by the Alliance, Europe would soon be •plimg- April, he should move an Address to Majesty upon the
ed into a war more bloody and cruel than had yet been known. present State of Ireland.
ffe-contended that an honourable compensation had not been Sir J. NEWPORT moved for accounts of all sums advanc-
made to the petitioner. ' ed for public works in Irelandeby way of loan, during the last
' The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that with respect ten years ; specifying to what bodies or persons such sums were
to the general observaticr.s in which the Hon. Member.who advanced—what sums were still due, and what interest, if any,
spoke last had indulged, as he seemed to think it likely that had been paid.—Ordered.
ORDNANCE RETURNS.
there would' be another opportunity more fitting to enter into
SO comprehensiVe a discussion, he (the Noble Marquis) should Mr. It. WARD brought-up certain returns from the Ordnance
not ateill enter a field, whose limits it was impossible to bring Office, which, after a few remarks upon the hasty manner in
within a narrow. compass. He should, therefore, content him- which they had been obliged to be drawn up, were laid on the
self with submitting the general reasons, which; upon a former table and ordered to be printed.
occasion, as now, had influenced him in rejecting the claim of COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Captain Romeo. This was not the first occasion that he had The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
been before the House, for this was his fourth petition upon Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Corn-
the same subject. Ile should not, therefore, feel it necessary mittee of Supply.
too into all-the minute circumstances of the case, and parti- Mr. BERNAL was anxious, seeing the Hon. the Comptrol-
ouiarly as there- was not a distinct motion before the House. ler of the Navy in his place, to make inquiry as to state of
He was glad to see that the character of a Police Officer when the working men in the Dock-yards, and whether it was in-
perforthing certain duties, was not so much an object of tended to make any alterations in their favour? He complained
dread and condemnation to Honourable Members whilst abroad that their rate of wages was too low.
as at hoists:. Captain Romeo Was certainly employed in that Sir B. MARTIN observed, that the present system was re-
service, ' and now. there was a whole nick of -speakers fnan cognized by the Navy Board, and existed under its special
the other tide, , ready to grant him remuneration and reward. direction. He wished, however, to take to himself whatever
He was as ready as any man to reward services performed to res onsibility P might attach to it, as if had been adopted at his
the country, but he.considered that the services Of Capt. Romeo suggestion, When the reductions were made, he said that in-
had received the same conSideration as was granted to those stead of consigning 5000 men, with average families of five
of other individuals who had rendered assistance to the British children each, to starvation, he had made all partake their
armies. When it was stated that this Gentleman was shares of the general. privation. He had never heard any thing
pursued with vindictiveness by the. Government of Naples, but gratitude expressed by the parties at the course he had so
he could only refer to the report of Sir W. A'Court,, which chosen and aeted'upon.
directly 'slated that from all the means of information which he Sir J. YORKE corroborated the statement of his Gallant
possessed, he did not believe that any persecution had been Friend.
exercised towards him. The circumstances which caused his Upon the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
being sent out of the country arose at a period after the armies Sir B. MARTIN said, that before the Speaker should leave
left Sicily, and took place in Calabria. They were of a nature the Chair, he was desirous of addressing himself to a subject
quite distinct from the part he took with regard to the British which had been alluded to by the Honourable Member for
troop:a. The Noble. Lord then alluded to the statements of the Aberdeen on a former occasion. He stated that the use of
Petition, and the opinions which had been delivered in Parlia- coal tar for ships would be detrimental to the interests of the
mend upon it, on former occasions, and contended that that Navy, and that the first time the ships came into action
House were not, so well enabled to judge of the facts as the they would be blown up. He stated also that it was destruc-
Minister who resided at the Court of Naples. With regard to dye of the iron work of the vessel, and destructive of hu-
the eestimony of the General Officers, and their opinion as to man life. These opinions the Honourable Member had
the extent of reward which had been given to Capt. Romeo, he founded upon the authority of a Mr. Boot, who was once a
could only say that they possessed the management of the mill- shipwright, afterwards a banker, and subsequently to that,
tary chest, and hart it in their power to have rewarded him he believed, a bankrupt. This Mr. Boot came to the Navy
upon the spot, if they then thought his services merited it. The Board with his plans, and demanded 50001. in advance be-
main charge of 4,5001. for sums expended in the service of the fore he could carry them into execution. But th B
e oard we
British army, was only brought forward in this country, not so ready to part with their money, and then this person
whereas it ought to have been 'regularly charged to the army declared that the navy was in danger, and that the first pistol
at the time it was expended. On the contrary, it had been that was fired in the ships would blow them up. This the
kept a secret from Lord W. Bentinck and Sir James Camp- Honourable Member for Aberdeen adopted and repeated in
bell, the proper quarters from whence it should have been re- that House ; and he now called upon hint to state the result of
paid. But to them it Was kept a dead secret, and it was only an experiment which was triad on Saturday last in his pm-
after so much time elapsed that the demand was made to the sence, as well as in that of ilitir distinguished Naval officers,
Government of this country. This circumstance, he confessed, and other persons, who all agreed that there never was a more
gave him a very unfavourable view of the claims altogether. gross imposition upon the public than these statements which
if he said any thing unpleasant to the feelings of Capt. Romeo, had been sent forth. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen believed
or any thing injurious to his character, he was exceedingly them, and it was very likely that he (Sir B. 31.) should have
sorry for it; but the position in which that Gentleman had done so likewise, under similar circumstances. But he called
placed himself, rendered it necessary. for him to say what he upon the Hon. Member to state in that House what he candid-
did. Under all the circumstances, if 'Captain Romeo had not ly stated on Saturday, with regard to the opinions he had be-
been paid for his services, it was quite clear that he had suf-' fore professed. The Owen Glendower afforded sufficient proof
fered in consequence of not having preferred his claims in pro- that the coal-tar had no bad effect upon the health of the sailors.
per time, or that the General Officers who' had been alluded to There was a complement of 264 men on board that vessel, which
had, not done their duty—a supposition which he could never was completely saturated with coal-tar, and had been for two
bring himself to entertain. With regard to the passport which years in a hot climate ; and out of the 264, living as they did in
had been refused to Captain Rotheo, it appeared that he wanted a constant atmosphere of coal-tar, only two had died.
one of such a nature as would give him protection, or involve Mr. HUME was extremely happy in the opportunity of sets
the 13ritish GOvernment with that of Naples. For such a pur- ting this subject in its proper light before the House. It had
pose it would have been most impolitic to have the rights of been represented to him, and to many other individuals, that
that Government questioned, and particularly at such a period the practice of the Navy Board for the last six years, which
as that at which the. request was made. With such feelings had been recommended by Sir R. Sepping, was detrimental
he did not think it advisable to give that particular passport to the service. Under these circumstances, the Board allowed
which was not .granted to any one but members of the Bri- the experiment to be made with the greatest fairness on Satur-
tish Government. lie entirely concurred in the opinion that day last ; and the result was, that not only himself and others,
the case altogether did not further demand the attention of but the son of Mr. Boot, went away, convinced-of the error of
Parliament. . his father's opinion. He was satisfied that no one could en-
Mr. HUME said, that the ground upon which the Noble tertain any opinion but that the gentleman in question had de-
Lord objected to these claims was quite different frem that on ceived himself.
which he stood last year. It was now admitted that Captain Sir J. YORKE concurred. in the observations of the Hon.
Romeo had performed important services to the army ; and he Member for Aberdeen.
was quite surprised that the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, BARBADOES FOUR PER CENTS.
should not admit the testimony of General Campbell as to the Mr. CREEVEY said, that as the Ordnance Estimates were
degree of remuneration which he had 'received, when he recol- to be submitted to the proposed Committee, he was anxious
leeted that not long ago, in the case of Parker, the Right Hon. once more to put on the Journals his opinion respecting an
Secretary brought forward a mere declaration of that Officer, item in those Estimates of 4,6001. for Repairs of the Fortitica-
and stated that it was deserving of the most implicit reliance. Lions of Barbadoes. He objected to this sum in the Estimates,
He begged tp call the attention of the House to what had fallen because there was a particular fend created to meet this ex-
from the Noble Marquis when the question was agitated upon pence by an Act of the Legislature of the Island passed in the
a former occasion. The Noble Marquis produced the letter year 1663. That Act provided a duty of 4i per cent. on cer-
of Sir W. A'Court, arid read from it the statement that Capt. taro commodities, for, among other purposes, providing for the
Romeo escaped from prison when he left Italy. The fact was, expence of fortifying the island. The reason that the money
that he ,Mr. II.) held in his hand at that very moment the was now claimed from the people of this country was, that this
passport of the Swedish Minister, by means of which he left Barbadoes Fund was divided among Gentlemen, Ladies, and
the country: After he was left destitute in Egypt,-he contrived children of the higher classes of England. The proper appli-
as soon as possible to come to this country ; and the reason cation of the Fund had been stated to that House in the reign
why he did not make his claims sooner was that he could not of Queen Anne, by a petition from certain Barbadoes mer-
get to this country sooner. After he did arrive; the 501. a year chants, praying that the Fund might be restored to its original
was allowed him at the intercession of the Duke of York, and object, which was done accordingly. - The original purpose of
which was only. to be allowed while the consideration of his the Fund had therefore been recognised by the House. The
claims was pending. The honour of the British Government present practice of distributing the money ought to be altered ;
demanded that something should be done for this unintunate especially as the distress of the country was so great as to have
gentleman ; and he was convinced that public reward had induced the Crown to make a considerable sacrifice for the pub-
often been bestowed with great liberality, for services of much lie good. He was determined on a future occasion (as he had
less importance than those which he had. performed. , done before) to bring the subject under the notice of the House
Mr; FORBES said', that he had seen the petitioner in a in a specific shape ; and for the present he should content him-
dreadful state of distress, and in the greatest alarm at a circum- self by moving as an Amendment to the motion that the
stance in which he (Mr. Forbes) placed no belief. He should Speaker should leave the Chair, " That the Committee be in-
mention it in order to give the Government an opportunity of strutted to inquire whether the duties raised by the Act of
doing what he was sure they Would do ; namely, of contradict- Legislature of Barbadoes Island, for defraying the expence of
ing it. -Thiannfeetunate Gentleman was in the greatest dread fortifying the same, were adequate for that purpose."
of being sent out of the country under the Alien Act. Five The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he should not
men, calling themselves Pidiee Officers, had been to his lodg- enter into the argument of the question, as the Hon. Member
ings, or rather to his garret, where he was in a most miserable had stated his intention to bring the subject before the House
state in a room foe which he paid four and sixpence a week, in the shape of a distinct motion. The Hon. Member might,
. .. _ if Ile pleased, oppose the particular vote in the Committee. He

The Committee must be aware that much firmness had been
necessary to accomplish the reduction ; for it could' not but be
an irksome, a painful task to reduce persons from a state of
comfort to one of comparative nothingness, and especially
when that were done without any fault of their own. He beg-
ged here to observe, that he had stated last year that these re-
ductions were in contemplation. It was then asked why had
they not been made before ? but the answer was, that the
doing so required much consideration and discussion. The
Master-General of the Ordnance had long contemplated a
total change in the constitution of the department ; and was
resolved to try the experiment of introducing in the vari-
ous offices checks upon each other. This had been accom-
plished, and had considerably multiplied the business. Re-
turns were now made to the principal office once a month,
instead of once a quarter ; and this return included a
daily journal of the business done, and of the minutest
receipt and expenditure. More business was now transacted
than ever in the various offices, and yet the number of persons
in them had been reduced. In almost every office there had
been reductions, and others were contemplated. The long
services of some of the officers rendered it impossible to re-
duce them with any justice; and it was therefore proposed
that they should be allowed to remain until death or retire-
ment ; it being understood that the vacancies thus caused were
not to be filled up. It was also intended to throw on the Ord-
nance the labour performed by the two great Departments of
Barrack Master General, and Storekeeper General. This ar-
rangement was undoubtedly in its infancy, but it would be
certainly brought to maturity for the public benefit, and he
should be happy if the Services required for those departments
could be performed at the Ordnance as ably as they were under
their present management. He now came to notice the savings
in the military branch of the department ; and he congratulated
the Committee on the change. of construction which had taken
plate ; a change, to accomplish which the Earl of Mulgrave
had gone a considerable way, and which had been carried into
perfection by the Duke of Wellington, the present Master-
General. The' corps of Drivers had been reduced four men
and five horses in each company, and the Drivers were not
now under two commands, as they had been before. All
the officers of the corps had, in some degree, undergone a
reduction ; and the total number reduced was four hundred.
The recruits were, for the future, to be engaged as gunners as
well as drivers ; an arrangement which Would be found highly
beneficial, as it would render a distinct corps unnecessary.—
The sum saved by this part of the reduction was 17,0001. •
but, on the other side of the account, there was a small
addition for pensions, and for allowances to Engineers, Sap-
pers, and Miners ; so that the clear saving would be 16,0001.
An improvement had been effected in that part of the service
relating to Reliefs. Formerly many of the military engaged in
this branch of the service were detained many years in foreign
climates • a circumstance which was. justly considered a hard-
But, by an addition of 92 men ur the effective force, it
hid been so arranged that 200 should always be in readiness• to
proceed abroad arid relieve. A decrease had taken place in
the number and pay of labourers, as would be seen on a com-
parison of the present with the last year's Estimates ; and a
saving had been effected in many cases, by a transfer of labour
from one establishment to another. This might be instanced
in the transfer of labour from the ordinary to the extraordinary
branch of the Department, and the transfer of barrack furni-
ture. In- the West India Islands, in the office of Clerk of
Stores there had been a saving on the item of half-pay. The
whole of the diminution of the expence on the military branch
was seventy-four thousand pounds, and there were some ar-
ticles of excess in which he trusted the expence would be re=
funded ; particularly with respect to the expence charged to
the Colony of Demerara for fortifications. This with some
others would make an apparent excess of 51,0001. ; but there
were reductions interspersed through the Estimates which
brought this sum down to 21,0001. There was a slight excess
caused by increase of pay to overseers and clerks of works,
and allowances to sappers and miners, clerks, &c. amounting
to 14,0001. forming a part of the sum he had mentioned as
an excess. Should he not have made himself clearly under-
stood on this subject, he should' feel pleasure of giving
every information within his power to the Committee.—
The last branch of the Expenditure was that called " the
Unprovided," in which the expence had been kept down
to the lowest possible sum. This year it was but 9,8411.
while in former years it
,had been as much as 40,0001. and
60,0001. From the charges relating to Ireland, the deductions,
compared with last year's expence, amounted to 15,0001. and
had been brought under the inspection and judicious manage-
ment of the Surveyor-General. The Estimates stated the
name, situation, and salary of every Officer ; and as he thought
it better in the first instance to give the Committee merely an
outline of the Estimates, he should reserve the minuter sub-
jects for explanation, as it might be called for by the Coin-
mittee. He intended to move the votes in the same order in
which they were moved last year, beginning with the establish-
ments of the .Tower and Pall-Mall, and going through the dif-'
ferent stations. The, Hon. Member concluded by moving a
Resolution for 35,8421. for the salaries of the Master-General,
and other Officers of the Ordnance at the establishments at the
Tower and Pall-Mall.
Mr. HUME expressed his satisfaction that a change had
been effected in the Department, and at the statement which
had been made by the Hon. Member, which lie considered to
be clearer than usual. He thought it, however, difficult to com-
pare the expence of one department with the other. He ap-
proved of the transfer of labour, but regretted that so much of
the reduction was in contemplation only. He thought the ex-
pense of the Barrack Board was unreasonably great. His
object was to shew, if possible, the comparative charges, and
for this purpose he would take the year 1817 as a medium year
bf expence. He thought great credit was due to the Depart-
ment for the reduction of expence under the " unprovided"
branch of expence. The reduction .had certainly been consi-
derable.--( Hear, hear, hear !)—On the whole, however, he
could not see that there was much reason for congratula-
tion. In the year 1792, the whole expence of this Depart-
ment was 400,0001. ; in 1817, 1,233,0001. ; and now, in 1822,
1,234,0001. He was free to admit, that when the army in-
creased, the Ordnance must have increased also. The whole
expence was nominally one thousand pounds more than
that of last year, though certainly the unprovided head of
expenditure bad een reduced from 50,0001. to 9,0001. It was
for the Committee to consider whether this expence was
not too great ; it being admittedly three times more than that
of the year 1792. In the year 1796 the Secretary to the Board
had only six clerks ; in the last year he had thirty, and now he
had twenty-three. The highest salary of any clerk in the office
of the Secretary in that year was 2761., now it was 11771. In
1796 the whole expence of that office was 8321. • and now it was
80001. In the office of Surveyor-General there had been a
considerable increase of expence. In 1706 there were fourteen
clerks, and the expence was 2,4001. ; in the last year, thirty-six

and asserted that he was to be removed. • He was in constant
ariprehension that he should be delivered up to the Sicilian Go-
vernment, and he (Mr Forbes) misted that . his mind would
be placed 'at ease by a declaration from Ministers that there
was no ground far Ale alarm. He could not but think that this
case, 1w relation to. many others, shewed the Government
to be penny wise and pound foolish. There was, indeed, a ,
case which.would prove this, that he was surprised to find had
escaped some Hon. Gentlemen on the 'other side. He, how-
ever, would pledge himself to give Ministers an opportunity of
denying it by bringing it forward himself, if they were not dis-
posed to do something for this unfortunate man.—(A
It appeared extremely hard that he should have forfeited a
pension of fifty pounds 6-year because he was reduced' to the
necessity of accepting a sum of three hundred. If he could be
placed upon the same footing by refunding that sum, he (Mr.
Forbes) would engage that it should be made up. The poor
man Was. at this moment without a sixpence in his pocket. It
was true that a small subscription was lately raised for him,
but there were upon the list the names of some very charitable
gentlemen who, had not paid their subscriptions. He hoped
that if this should meet their ears or eyes, they would not re-
quire any further application.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, said, that with regard
to any order for remoying Captain Romeo from the country,
he. had heard not one word about it. The Hon. Member had
beon, he thought, in a credulours huMour upon several points.
As to: the hidden charges against the Government, be entreated
the Hon. Member not to use them for purposes of extortion, but
to bring them forvi:ard at once, without observing the least
ceremony.
Mr. FORBES said; that if the subject was not irrelevant to
the question before the House, he had no objection to point
oiit.the case to whichhe had alluded.—(Cries of " Go on;')_.
lie would then ask, whether a pension of 8001. per annum had
not been lately settled" upon Lady Torrens, the wife of Sir
Henry Torrens, a name which claimed the highest respect. It
had been stated to-him, that that gallant General, whose ser-
vices had been attended with so much advantage, and bestowed
with the greatest possible attention, had some time ago re-
signed the situation which he held. and taken one with less
duties and an inferior salary ; and that in consequence a pen-
sion. to the amount he had stated had been granted to Lady
Torrens.

if he pleased, °pp
(the :Marquis), however, presumed that the object of the Hon.
Member was merely to record his own opinion.
Mr. HUME said, the object of his Hon: Friend was to call
on the Committee to consider whether the money had or had
not been diverted from its original purpose. In- fairness he
thought that the subject should.be sent to the Committee.
Mr. G OULBU RN denied that in fairness the subject should
be sent to the Committee. It was not a business for the inanity
of a Committee of Supply ; and, at all events, the Hon. Mem-
ber could move to leave out the particular sum.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the original question - - 62
For the amendment - - 14
Majority - - • ---48
ORDNANCE OF ESTIMATES.
On our re-admission into the gallery we found the House in
a Committee. •
Mr. R. WARD rose to move the Ordnance Estimates. The
total of the expense of this branch of the public service would
be 1,200,0001., being 72,0001. less than that of the last year on
the ordinary part of the estimates, and 21,6001. more than that
of the extraordinary, on a comparison with the expense of the
last year. Under that part of the estimates called " the un-
provided," it would be seen that the sum was 30,0001. less
than last year. Under the charge for " superannuation," there
was an excess on the military side of 6,0481. and on the
civil of 9,3251. It would, however, be obvious that this
increase was caused by the decrease in the body of the
Estimates. The service for Ireland required a sum
less by 15,0001. than that required in the last year. The
whole sum requited would be apparently 105,0001. more
than last year' but in point of real expense there was a
reduction of 83,0001. A saving had been effected in the
civil and military branches of the service which he would.
describe 'very shortly, beginning with the civil. The prin-
cipal Offices belonging to the Ordnance Department were
those of Pall-mall and the Tower • in these there had been a
real saving of 62571. Under the head of Contingencies, there
had been a saving of, 19001- ; and on the expense of all the
Foreign Stations one of 73811. In the item of Repairs, the
saving was 23001. ' • so, that with a few minor reductions, the.
whole saving in the Civil Branch amounted to 24,3431. This
had been effected by a reduction in the number of_ Offices ; in

clerks; at an expence of 10,6211., and this year tWenty-nine
clerks, at an expence of 9,0001. In the office of Clerk of
the Ordnance there had been an increase in the number of
clerks of from fifteen to twenty-three, and the expence had
been tripled. In the office of Treasurer, there were in 1796
ten clerks, at an expence of 12001. ; last year there were tivtive
clerks, at an expence of 30001., and this year eight clerks, at
an expence of 20961. This he found was the only office which
hadheen reduced in number since the year 1796, Having given
these specimens of the increase, he should really- he happy to
see the reduction specifically pointed out. If the expence had
been really reduced, there must, he thought, have been a most
unequal distribution of the service. The principal increase in
the expence from the year 1796 had been in the establishments
at the Tower and Pall-mall. He certainly expected that some
attention would have been paid to the Report of the Com-
missioners of Military Inquiry, which stated that it would be
desirable to join the Pall-mall and Tower establishments.—
The Commissioners also thought that Woolwich was a better
place than the Tower for receiving stores. They considered like-
wise that the office of Lieut.-General was necessary °lily in
war, upon a presumption that the Master-General might be
callpd upon foreign service. They recommended that only
two of the Officers of the Department should hold seats in that
House; but now there were four- who always supported the
propositions of Government. Had the recommendation of the
Commissioners been attended to, the reductions would have
been considerably greater in amount; but in the present re-
ductions, he thought the benefit of the higher officers had
,been consulted rather than that of the public. In the year
1796, the expence of the establishment at Pall-mall and the
Tower was but 18,0001. last year it was 51,0001. This he thought
was considerably too large. If the expence were twice as much
as it was in the year 1796, it would be amply sufficient. He
had expected that the Master-General of the Ordnance De-
partment would have lowered his own salary. He had re-
duced the junior salaries, and he, was sure they would have
better borne that redur4i in had he commenced with himself. In
1796, the Master-General received 1,5601. a-year, and now he
drew 3,1751. a sum which he thought would very well bear a
reduction of 1,0001. Looking at the other Officers of the de-
partment, he was of opinion that 1,0001. would be quite suffi-
cient for the Treasurer. The whole of the higher Officers of
the Department ought to suffer a diminution of salary. In
1' vhr---

Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, it was most certainly true that a
pension had been granted to Lady Torrens. It was in the
knowledge of the House that the disposal of pensions to a cer-
tain amount formed a part of the constitutional power of the
Crown. Sir Henry Torrens was well known to the country—
(Hear, hear !)--and he thought that a pension granted to his
Lady, as an acknowledgment of his services, would never be
considered an improper exercise of the Royal Prerogative.—
(Rear, hear !)
'Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the testimony of the Bri-
tish Generals ought to outweigh that of the Neapolitan Govern-
m4nt. He was quite sure that the Government could have no
i4t4mtion et-enforcing the provisions of the Alien Act against
the petitioner. He was certain they would, do nothing so vio-
lent ; and. he did hope that they would reconsider his case, and

the on. Gentleman had discussed the subject submitted to the
consideration of the House.—(Hear, hear !)—He should be
extremely happy to give the Honourable Gentleman every
information in his power upon the points where there ap-
peared to be any dissension betwixt them, and for that
purpose he would follow him as closely as possible in the
observations he- had made. With regard to the Barrack
Board, he admitted that many and extensive reductions would
be made, but he could not say that 18,0001. would be sufficient
to support it henceforward. The Honourable Gentleman
did not seem to understand the way in which he made
his calculations,
_ to prove the reduction of establishments
on comparing the present year with 1792. He first took the
numbers of last year, and after subtracting from them the re-
duction made in this year, he compared the result with 1792,
and a difference of twenty-nine, allowing for Ireland, ap-
peared in favour of this year. The Hon. Gentleman's disap-
proval of the Lieutenant-General attached to the office he
could not at all agree with. In the Board of Admiralty the
naval duties were entrusted to a naval officer, and at the Board
of Ordnance the military business was under the superintend-
ence of a General Officer. It was true that the numbers in
Pall-mall and the Tower were greater. This was in conse-
quence of an immense addition of business thrown upon these
departments from the reductions in the out-stations. - The Hon.
Gentleman had made little mistake in thinking that the bu-
siness of the Ordnance Office could go on with a reduction of
10,0001. Ile assured the Hon. Gentleman, that even with his
physical powers of labour, he could not. rival the application
to business of some of the officers. He particularly dis-
tinguished the Secretary to the Board, whose unremitting at-
tention to his duty had rarely been equalled, and he was sure
could never be surpassed. He did not even quit his office at
the time of meals. The most scrupulous attention was also
exacted from every individual •in the office. The clerks in
each department were obliged to attend at the appointed.
hours, and, as a check over them, the Heads of Departments
were called upon to report the hours of their coming and
going away. The public had, indeed, not only the whole of
their time that they had a right to expect, but even more, as
that leisure to which every Gentleman in a public office was en-
titled had been trenched upon.lately. In his own office, and
in the office-of SurveyOr-General and others, he knew that
the clerks were obliged to attend three hours and upwards
beyond their usual period, in order to bring up arrears
of business. Thus they were to be found at work there from
seven in the morning till four, and till eight and nine at
night. It was impossible, therefore, that more could be re-
quired from them ; and if they took 10,0001. from the Esta-
blishment, as suggested by the Hon. Member for Monttose„
the business could not be done. By the new mode of conduct-
ing the office, according to the system of the Master-General,
all that human nature could do would be done ; but he was
not sure that it could be carried into complete execution. At
all events, he protested
,against Hon. Members sepposing that
by a scrape of the pen, or, as if it were by magic, the whole
system of management of an office of this description could be
changed, and an inordinate reduction of expenditure effected.
It was not true that the junior officers were divested of that
solace under their loss of salary, to be derived from the consi-
deration that their superiors shared in their deprivations. The
fact was, that the encouragement was much greater than the
Hon. Gentleman could suppose; for whilst 5 per cent. was
taken from the minor salaries, to be returned in the form of
superannuation allowance, 10 per cent. was taken off those
which were to receive no such• return. For his own part, his
salary was 1001. less than what was attached to his office in
1792 ; but yet he would not escape the Bill of his Right
Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and
he could wish that the Honourable Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Hume) would interfere in that quarter oil the ground
of justice. The Treasurer of whom the Honourable Gen-
tleman had spoken, would 1201. out of his salary, and
he should be sorry to see so exemplary a public accomptant
reduced lower. Once more he must enter his protest against
what Hon. Gentlemen who came down there and spoke at
random about reductions being regarded as gospel. What
Lord sioira, Lord Mulgrave, Lord Chatham, and especially
the Duke of "Wellington, whom nothing escaped any more
than if he were in face of the enemy all day long, said, must
be taken as coming from more competent judges of the matter,
than Gentlemen whose opinion were derived from • a cursory
examination of a few days duration. There should be no
jealousy about the size of the Board, as connected with
the question of diminishing the influence of the Crown in
that House. The Board was composed of the heads of
the different departments of the Office, who received no sa-
lary for sitting at the Board beyond the amount of their allow-
ances for their patent offices. And it was plain that the Board
must be mote t fficient, from being so composed. With regard
to the influence of the Crown, although five of the Board were
permitted to have seats in that House, only three of them were
there. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman therefore would
see that reduction had been carried as far as it consistently
could.—(H ear !)
Mr. ELLICE thotight that the two offices at the Tower and
Pall-mall might be consolidated, and when the Right Hon.
Gentleman assured them that they could not usefully do soy he
wished to know how the House were to judge between his in-
terested assertion and the declaration of the Commissioners for
Military Inquiry ? There was one ground upon which he
would support all the propositions for reduction of his Hon.
Friend behind him. This was when it were not satisfactorily
proved to him that the business of the different Departments
had increased in proportion to the increase of cost since 1796.
—That had not been proved in the present case, and he must
say, that however painful it might be, he must support the
proposition for a diminution of the salary of the Master-Gene-
ral of the Ordnance in proportion to the increase in value of
the currency since 1814. He thought 10,0001, might very well
be spared, and if his Hon. Friend carried it to a division lie
should have his vote.
CoIoneIDAVIES observed, that so far from there being any
decrease in the Estimates for the present year 2 there was, ac-
tually an increase of about 32,0001. over the Estimates of 1819.
Mr. WARD observed, with reference to what had fallen from
the Hon. Member for Coventry, that there was at present six-
teen times as much half-pay to manage: as there was in 1792,
besides what increase of business had occurred from the Union
with Ireland.
Mr. HUME said that, independently of othei motives, he
was most anxious to take the sense of the Committee on the
question of allowing the salary of the Master General to re-
main the same as it was in time of war. He really thought
that an example in the higher appointments ought to be set,
and he should therefore move that a reduction of 10,0001. be
made upon the vote under consideration.
Sir R. FERGUSSON wished to know whether he was right
in supposing that a reduction had been made in the Medical
Department. He understood that so many as twelve most
_ _ - _ Icon-

efficient Medical Officers had been reduced to' a very .in6_
siderable allowance, whilst by a new appointment to the situ.
ation of Surgeon-General, the whole saving thus acquired was
swallowed up.
Mr. WARD admitted, that in consequence of the represen-
tations of that House of the size of the Medical Department,
reductions had been made. But they had notheen reduced on
the grounds stated, viz. to keep the Surgeon-General in his
situation. The Master-General wished to have only one medi-
cal officer at Woolwich, but it was found impossible to induce
any one to take the two situations of Director and Surgeon-
General. The Surgeon-General, Sir J. Webb, was invalided,
and unable from asthma to do hospital duty in winter, and the
Surgeon-General from Dublin was put in his place.
Dlr. HUME said that it was the reduction of the Board that
he had recommended last year. Sir J. Webb had been excused
hospital duty for a long while, and was in fact forced to retire
against his will, to make way for the Gentleman from Dublin.
The late Surgeon General had retired upon full pay, at 31.75.
a day ; the twelve individuals, reduced to two shillings a day
after long service, created a saving of 31. 2s. Bd. a day ; so that
there was actually an increased charge of ss. per diem by the
transaction.
The House then divided.
For the. Amendment . 30
Against it - - 95
Majority against the Motion ---65
On our re-admission to the gallery, we found the Committee
ageeing to the resolution for, granting 12,8851. for the civil
'establishments of the Ordnance Department on the home sta-
tion, for the year 1822.
The following resolutions were then agreed to :
That a sum not exceeding 23,4951. be granted to defray the
expences of the increased salaries to officers on the civil esta-
blishment of the Ordnance at home and abroad, for the year
1822.
That a sum not exceeding 17,2001. be granted for civil con-
tingencies of the Ordnance, for the year 1822.
That a sum hot exceeding 4,2581. 13s. 6d. be granted to de.
fray the charges of the 27 master-gunners for Great Britain,
for the year 1822.
That a sum not exceeding 40,7931. ss. 3d. be granted to de-
fray the expences of the royal engineers, for the year 1822.
That a sum not exceeding 26,2871. be granted for the cx

Y •
the number of persons will) filled others ; and in the lessening 1796, the whole Department cost but 18,7061. whereas -in the .. _
of their salaries. Last year there were nearly 500 persons in present year it was estimated at 56,0001. So inordinate a dif- pence of sappers and miners, for the year 1822.
anti about the Ordnance;, and upwards of 100 had been re- ference demanded at least a reduction of 10,0001. to be That a sum not exceeding 244,M. 9s. 2d. be granted for
duced ; so that he hoped the Committee would not think the supported by diminution in the higher salaries. However, he defraying the expense of the royal artillery, for the year 1822,•
Heads of the Department had been idle since the last Session. should not make a motion to that effect until .he heard upon That a sum not exceeding 36,9541. 16s. 2d. be granted to
The number number of persons now employed was 385. If this num- what ground it was that these salaries were allowed to remain fray the expences of the Royal horse-artillery and the riding-
ber were compared with that of the favourite year 1792, it untouched, whilst those under them were not spared. He school, for the yes,r 1822:
would be found that the numerical strength of the Department thought they ought at least to have the encouragement to sup- That a sum of 2,6241. 98. 2d. be granted for defraying the
had been decreased. In the year 1792, the number of persons port their reductions of seeing that those above them were not expense* of the Director-general and staff of the field train for
was 359, without noticing Ireland ; and it might here be ob- exempted from similar. diminutions. If the Board would not the year 1822.
served that several Colons numb been since added to this coun- of their own accord follow the recommendations of the Corn- That a sum, not exceeding 6,8601. 12s. be granted to defray
try by conquest. If the r employed at that time for missioners of Military inquiry, the Committee must force them the expences of the Medical establishment of the Ordnance, for
Ireland were added, the number would be 414, being 29 more to do it. , 1822.
than the number at present attached to the Department.— • Mr. WARD expressed his satisfaction at the tone in which That a sum, not exceeding 6,0591. lOs. 3d. be granted for de.