The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-31 00:00:00

QUER BILLS.

After some conversation, as to the course of business,
between Mr. DAwsoN, the CHANCELLOR of the Excua-
TUER, Sir li. HARDINGE. and Mr. HUME, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee of Supply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
it was necessary for him to detail the principle of the
measure which lie was about to propose to the House. The
House was aware of the vast numbers of the labouring
poor of Ireland who were out of employment. It was
must extraordinary, that in a country with such a fertile
soil as Ireland, where capital could be roost advantageously
applied, it should he wanting, particularly when capital
was so abundant here. So it was, however, and the ob-
ject of the House should be to take steps'to pro Mote the
transfer of capita. to Iceland. It might he said that it
was contrary to • principle for Government to advance
money in aid of that object,—thit if capital could-be pro,-
fitably employed, capital would be 'attracted there. 'But?
front the experience they had had, it war evident this *A5'
not the ease in respect' to Ireland, at `least to• -any extirit,
though he admitted that capital was inerasing•there. 'Un's
der these circumstances, he did not knoWilrat it was-Cona •
trary to principle for GovernmentittOtiVetolierlitAby;tiit.'
aid of the legislatUre, or-artificiateapitaf. Herlid nOt
the country should be taxed to giVe that capital—that would
be unjust a but he did not propose this. His object Waseel
that the security of this country should be given -to raise'
the sum necessary, to enable Ireland • to call its-iiiirgieS
into action. Ile admitted that'-the 'measure.i•iqUirettP
great caution in order to prevent- 'misapprehension.- One]
great danger -which might be apprehended was, that the
application of this money would he too much acted upon I
by local-influence, and that therefrom would result great
abuses, which would not arise if the money was kept tinder
the controul of Government. • He was of opinion that
such controul was n cessary, in -order to secure the (Inc
application of the money. But while he thought it essen-
tial that 'the controul of the Government should be placed
in the hands of the Government, he, at the saute time,
thought that local knowledge was necessary to direct the
application of the various some. There was one thing to
be carefully guarded against—that nothing like party or
political feelings should interfere in the application of the
!now.), —( Hear.) What was most of all to be avoided
was; that political feelings should eontroul the application
of any part of the money which Parliament should vote.
These were the principles upon which his Majesty's -11 Ii•
sisters had prepared a plan for the application of the sum,
and he would state shortly the heads of the plan which
they intended to propose in the shape of a Bill. AS be was
not at present going to propose the Bill, it would not
be necessary to enter minutely into the details. He would
however, state as much as would make the Committee
compteitend the object of Government. It was proposed
that the money should be applied through the agency of a
commission, appointed, not by the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, but by the Treasury in London. The commission
was to have the power of disposing of the money to be
voted, and it was proposed that the commission should ab-
sorb the existing powers of the Commissioners of Public
Works, of Inland Navigation, of the Board of Works in Dub-
lin, and also the power of the Postmaster-Geueral of Ire-
land, which enabled him to direct the repair and improve-
ment of post roads. The C tmmissioners were to be paid
certain salaries. lie considered such an arrangement very
important, for, without it, the Government would not
have that controul over them which was necessary. At
the saute time, no additional expence would be imposed
on the country thereby ; because• as the proposed commis-
sion was to occupy the places of those other commissions
which he had jest mentioned, and for the maintenance of
which the public money was now applied, not only no ad-
ditional expence would be incurred, but a saving, if any
thing, would result to the country. The Comtnissioners,
as lie had stated before, were to he entirely subject to the
controul of the Treasury in London. They were to have
no communication with the local Government of Ireland,
but were to communicate directly with the Treasury.
They would be bound to make reports at stated periods;
and in order to prevent any works beiog, commenced in
consequence of improper local influence, the Com-
missioners would not be allowed to undertake any new
work,' without the approbation and sanction of the "t:io•
vernment in England being first obtained. When the
Commissioners took into consideration the applications
made to them from which they were to select those to be
referred to the Trtasury in London, he considered that
their object ought to be to take into consideration first of all
the public benefits likely to result from the proposed works,
next the immediate employment of the labouring popula-
tion, and the probable effect which the undertaking of the
works would have ett the future employment of the people—
that is to say, whether the proposed works would tend to the
increase employment in the districts in which they
were undertaken --(Hear, hear.) Above all things they
aught to see that good security was given for the money
advanced. The present loan of money was not proposed
on the same principle as former loans had been—namely,
th it when the money was repaid to Government, the fund
should cease. Ile intended that the money, when repaid
to the Commissioners, should form a fund for the improve-
ment of Iteland, for a lung period of time, and that the
intere•t of the money would lie constantly repaid to Go-
Velnuivnt. The inch it: which he proposed to raise the
money was by the issue of Exchequer-bills. The Com-
missioners would have to report all their proceedings to the
Treasury in London ; and their report would he annually
laid before Parliament. They would also have to enact
for themselves s•rict rules, which would be submitted to
Parliament for alteration and improvement. The money
would be lent on the security of freehold property, of
county rates, and of tolls. In every ease of private secu-
rity, the security must be real, and consequently no risk of
loss would be incurred. Hitherto no loss had been experi-
enced; for the money lent had always been repaid, with ad-
.
vantage and benefit to the country ; and even in case of
money being advaneed in the way' of gift, the revenue had
amply been benefitted by the transaction. Under these
circumstances, lie herd that when the time came for him
to propose the adoption of the measure, no material objet-
toms Would be be taken to it. But the Committee moist
nature, be
time, , aotuolldof hec oncsoidne,rua,brleedlel iiig ti
pli;ssin Cgon ite
aware, that
.a Bill to effect the object he had in view must he
oefq a u
e complicated)a tU!'
through the House; and, before it could take effect, the
time most requiring its application in Ireland would be
passed. Ile therefore thought himself justified ro-
posina to the House to vote a smaller grant, a I • P be applied at the present time in Ireland. v,trt right
mittee was probably aware that the months during. which
P was most wanted in Ireland were the latter
end of April, May, June, and the commencement of July. I

Now if. the Haase were to wait until the ptoposed 831 was
passed, which, according to ordinary calculation, could
not be before the end of May, the season most requiring
relief to be afforded to Ireland would be past before any
could be applied, and that at a time when it was said, and
truly said, that the country was suffering under a state of
great distress. He therefore thought it necessary that same
immediate steps should be taken ; and this consideration
induced him to come. down to that House and propose a
resolution before the holydays. It might be said, that by
now proposing the resolution he would not be effecting
the object he had in view, because the resolution could not
he reported until after the recess. But it should be
considered, that it would be impossible to get
the _ proposed system into operation without previous
nquiry ; and that if the Committee agreed to the
resolution, the Irish Government would then be enabled
to receive applications for the loan of the money, and
to make the necessary invest4,ation. He had already

„.. _
•itated, that be considered it most essential that the com-.
ruission, when established, should he entirely separated
from the Irish Government. He conceived that there
would be great objections to allowing the local Govern-
ment to have any connexion with the matter ; but he did
not think that objection would apply to a temporary mea-
sure, because it was necessary to get it into work in such
time as would make the relief which was proposed to be
given effectual. He therefore intended to move that
50,000/. should be raised by the issue of Exchequer-bills,
and put under the disposal of the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, but with the same restrictions as would be placed
upon the commission to be ultimately established; that is
to say, the Lord Lieutenant should not have the power to
undertake any work without the sanction of the Treasury
in London. The disposal of the money would be under
the controul of the Treasury,—not from want of confidence
in the Noble Lord at the head of affairs in Ireland, but
because he thought it desirable that whatever restrictions
were to be ultimately determined on, should be adopted at
the first outset. It was not his intention that any assess-
ments should be made in Ireland, but that the money should
be lent en freehold security, on the security of the county
rates, and of tolls. The Noble Lord concluded by moving,
that his Majesty be authorized to direct the issue of Exclie•
quer-bills or to advance-a sum of money out of the con-
solidated fund, to an amount not exceeding 50,0001., to
be applied for purposes of local and temporary relief in
Ireland, eta sufficient security being given for the re-pay-
ment of the same.

Mr. WYSE said the state in which Ireland was could
not long continue without producing a total disorganiz
tine. There was scarcely one county in a wholesome con-
dition ; and there were many on the verge of insurrection.
The great evil of Ireland was the want of employment ;
and that had occasioned a continued series of servile wars
of 'the poor against the rich. The Hon. Member then
went into a variety of calculations with the view of show-
ing that any money applied to the improvement of Ireland
would be amply repaid by the increase of the revenue of
the country. No money, he said, could be more bene-
ficial:y applied than for the purpose of opening roads and
improving the inland navigation of the'country. No less
than thirty rivers might he rendered navigable, and a com-
munication established along a territory a thousand miles
'in extent. A great part of the western coast of Mayo was
completely itre, while the people were perishing with
want. The inhabitants of the place dare not to go opt to
fish, because there were no piers to agrd shelter to their
boats ; and actually the fishermen from Dublin, who had
larger boats, had the Monopoly of the fishery. die thought
re public money could not be better applied than in
building a harbour at that place. With respect to the
alkedst,ees, he knew no way of compelling them to return
tolheir estates,_ unless by the imposition of a heavy rate
oh' theil'Propetty. 'But of this he was" convinced, that
feltbeir 'Absentees must be co:Ripened. reside on their estates,
-nrstise some meausAmost be takeu.to benefit the peasantry.
fle..bad inteuded • ,pose the appointment of a board of
;PO& works i 'lid the establishment of a Cotu-
.
i Akin c .o communicate with the Board
irf Worksivliut ..,ould support :the plan of Govern-
inerttptfar as it went, and leservc: his proposition for a
ft~tur period. - .
SADLER said that no adequate relief could be
trVlreland by:a measure of the description of the one
:Proposed, and he hardly knew whether or not to give -it
his
,uppoliation. He thought some measure ought to be
taken to compel the culpable alscutees to support the poor
in laland, arid until the House adopted some moderate
systeAs of poor laws for that country, be did not think it
wookt,haiT done its duty. He urged Ministers to pro-
teed 4a,more decided course.
Coro-net TYRELL said be pledged himself to his con-
stituents to advocate retrenchment and economy; and he
wished to know, from the Noble Lord opposite, whether,
considering the sufferings of the por of this country, he
should act consistently with his promise if he supported the
present vote for 50,000/. He hoped the Noble Lord
would take the distreies of the people of this country into
consideration.

Mr. O'BRIEN was of opinion .that the Government
greatly deceived themselves if they imagined that by the
advance 'of this money they would afford any permanent
relitf tOlreland. To assist that country effectually they
must ut.„l/tst•come to a qualified system of poor laws.

Sir RI WILSON sail that the adoption of a well-regu-
latetFtem of poor laws was the best thing that could be
done for Ireland. •

Mr. GKATTAN was quite satisfied that some plan of
poor I ,ws must be carried into effect with ;espect to Ire-
land. Pert anent good could he effected by no other means,
Mr. G.DAWSON gave the Government credit for an
anxious deSire to do full justice to Ireland ; but still he
considered the present proposition as a complete delusion
(and he did,rot mean to use the expression in an offensive
sense) on the people of Ireland. He objected, whether
the sum to be granted was fifty thousand pounds or five
hundred thousand Rounds, to have it placed under a Board
of Cmninissipners, because he believed that a system of
jobbing woull be the inevitable result. The great ques-
tion was, lunv the poor of Ireland could be raised from
their present deplorable state of destitution to one of de-
cency and respectability ? Having considered the subject
much, he had come to this conviction, that unless some
system of poor laws were adopted, their situation could
nut be permanently ameliorated.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that machinery could tie found in Ireland quite suf-
ficient for carrying such a plan into effect.—(Hear.)
_ .

Mr. STANLEY defended the Government Iron the
charge that this proposition had been brought forward for
the purpose of obtaining a temporary popularity in Ire-
land. The Right Hon. Member for Harwich had depre-
ciated the report of the Committee of last Session which
had been drawn up by his Hon. Friend the Memher for
Limerick, but he (Mr. Stanley) would maintain that it
ryas er and masterly document.
the a
Ri eery
'rad said, that of the nineteen
,rt.
. c o
Grenit:trleelltreenn s‘ ii
Bills recommended in that report, none had been brought
forward by the Government. Now several of those Bills
had been already introduced, and several had been prepared
and would have been introduced before this time but for the
imp) taut measure which now almost exclusively engrossed
the attention of the House He (Mr. Stanley)would not
pledge himself against the introduction of any species of poor
laws into Ireland, but,not intending to enter upon that ques-
tion at present, he should content himself with saying,
that he had never known any measure of that kind, as
yet pep.
which did not appear to him to be calcu-
lated to ha attended by results that would countet balance
any advanta;es which might he derived from it. He was
sure that this proposition would he accepted with grati-
tude in Ireland by persons who had opportunities for em-
ploying capital to advantage there, but who did not pos-
sess the means of doing so without the assistance of Go.
vernment. It had been said, that if money should be
advanced in this way, it would never be repaid to the
Governm-nt. Now several sums had been already ad-
vanced in a similar way for similar purposes in Ireland,
and such had nut btom the case; ant he held it) his hand
a statement, horn which it appeared ,!hat of the 500 0001.
which had been advanced to Ireland in 1522, both of
principal and interest, there remained only 15,0001. not
repaid. The advance which it was proposed to make in
the pros nt instance would be only a fair advance of money
which any private capitalist would make upon equally good
security. It appeared from the report, of the Committee
of last Session, that the most beneficial effects had re-
,•ulted from the advancer which had been already made
front time to time for the carrying on of public works in
the southwestern districts of Ireland ; and he was con-
fident that the advance which it le as now proposed to make,
was calculated both to relieve distress and to increase the
revenue, as had been the ease in the former instance.
Mr. GOULBURN did not believe that this sum of
50,000/. would at all go to the extent which was antici-
pated towards alleviating the distress which existed at pre-
sent in some districts in Ireland.

Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that so far as this mea•
sure went, it should have his complete concurrence ; and
if a compulsory assessment had been also proposed, he
should he most willing to give his assent to it. The Right
lion. Gentleman then went on to contend, that if the pro-
prietors of land in the distressed districts did not consent
to charge themselves with the Jclittf of the poor in the
vicinity, they would disgrace themselves.
Mr. T. P. COURTENAY hoped the'Nohle Lord opposite
would give an en-1y opportunity for the discussion of the
motion of the Hon. Mensber for Ennis, for making some
provision for the poor of that country by legislative enact-
mrot. Unless some compulsory means of relief were

alapted, no tamp3raty measure of this kind woul 1 be
effectual.

Colonel TRENCH feared that if money were to be lent
out only to borrowers upon adequate security, it would
not answer the end in view. Immediate relief was what
was wanted An immediate application of relief would
alone be effectual
Mr. ATT WOOD deprecated a discussion on the ques.
tion of providing security for the insignificant advance of
50,000/. at a moment when distress existed which re-
quired immediate relief. He would not believe that the
propc,ed sum was intemle,l to coact popularity ; but he
must say that it would be inadequee for the relief of tie
distress which existed.

Mr. D. BROWNE regrAted to find that some Hon.
Members should attempt to throw cold water on a propo-
sition of this kind, and talk of a poor law at a time when
instant assistance was required If they wished to avert
all the horrors of famine in several parts of the country,
particularly the district of Erris, to nhich be had before
called the attention of the House, they should give imme-
diate and gratuitous assistance.

Mr. LEADER regretted that when the Right Hon.
Member for Armagh stated the advantage of the course
he hiMself had adopted, he had not recommended the
aloption of a similar course for the relief of the present
distress. A loan of 50,000/. might do some good, but it
was useless to disguise the fact that that sum would not
relieve the country to the extent it required. England
had gain,d by the loans she ha I made in this way to Ire-
land; she liiirrowed money at 31 per cent,. and she lent
in Ireland at 5 per cent. interest, besides a repayment of
5 per cent. of the principal ; and she also gained by it in
the increased stimulus it gave to Irish industry, which
always re-acted ben •ficially on this country. He was
sorry that the present Secretary for Ireland did not follow
the example of his predecessors in office, one of whom
(Sir R. Peel), when he found 25 banks there on the eve
of ruin, advanced a sum of public money which pre-
vented that ruin. The money was reps d, and tl.e loan
was an advantage to both countries. However grateful
he felt for the proposed advance, he looked upon it only as
a temporary !Leasure. It might allay for a time, but
coultl not cure the evils of Ireland, one of the greatest of
which was the desolating evil of absenteeism. The war of
poverty against property had already commenced. It was
not as heretofore the war of political or religious opinions,
but the war of gaunt famine leading to desperation and
striving for food.
After a few observations from General HART, which
were not audible in the gallery,
Sir J. BURKE did not think the project would he
useful to Ireland, because, even where the proper security
could be given, the country gentlemen would not be agreed
as to the application of the funds. In former grants tie
case was different, because persons were appointed to
apply them.
The motion was then put and carried. The House re-
sumed, and the report was ordered to he received on Tues-
day the 12th of April.
A number of petitions were then received—several for
Reform, and others for the abelitiosi of slavery ; after
which the other Orders of the Day were disposed of and
at Three o'clock the House adjourned to Tuesday the 12th
of April.