The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, 3141 CH 24.
S:r A. GRANT, Mr. R. TREvoa, and others from the
House of Cornmi,ns, brought up several private Bills.
Mr. Viztril, the Lord Chancellor's Secretary of Bank-
ruptcies, brought up a return of the fees received by the
Cornxri•sinner• of Bankrupts for the last three years.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented a petie
lion from Bath against the Beer Bill, which he considered
as having it tendency to demoralize the people.
The LORD CHANCELLOR had received communi-
cations to the same effect from the northern counties, but
the Act was net what it was originally intended to be.—
The Bill which he himself hail proposed, and which be
lAieved the Bill in question, originally went only to allow
any person to sell beer which was not to be consumed on
the premises. The object was that persons might have
beer without going for it to the public-houses, but by
sending for it tie a shop, as for any other article required
for household consumption. The Bill had, it appeared,
been altered in that respect in its progress through the
Raise of Commons. But, perhaps, the bad effect was
but temporary, like that which was apt for a time to follow
all alterations; and if so, it would soon lie at an end;
otherwise it might perhaps be expedient to reconsider the

sul,ject.
The Earl of ESSEX presented a petition from the
county of Essex, in favour of the Mieisierial plan of Re-
form ; also three petitions to the same effect from places in
the same county.
Lord DURHAM presented a petition to the same effect
from Chester.le-street, in the county of Durham ; also a
petition from the operatives of Glasgow, praying for a re-
peal of the duties on newspapers and other channels for
the communication of knowledge.
E al GREY presented a petition from the freeholders
of Down, signed by upwards of 1,500 persons, in favour
of Reform.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not consider
the petition as expressing the sentiments of the freeholders
of Down, it was not signed by one person of respectability,
it had been got up in a private room in Downpatrick,
and though signed by 1,300 persons, yet it must be
remembered there were upwards of 25,000 freeholders
in Down, and it would not therefore be taken as express-
ing the feelings of the county. With all the respect he
felt for the Noble Earl at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government, he must say, however, that
whenever he introduced his measure to this House,
he said it was to he an efficient and moderate Re-
form. It certainly was efficient, but where the mo-
deration was to be found he could not discover.—
It was only a resting place towards universal suffrage and
vote by ballot. If the measure ever passed, it would
certainly do nothing score than turn our universal
Constitution into all that anarchy and misery which had
deluged foreign countries. He asserted that there
had been an undue influence exercised by his Majesty's
Government in stating that the measure had received the
Royal approbation. The people of England had heen
deceived by such insinuation, and he maintained
that the threats of dissolving Parliament which had been
h, Id out should the measure not pass, was unworthy of the
Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government.
The principle of the measure had been termed revolutionary.
—( Hear, hear, hear.)—He was not disposed to
give it that epithet. He, however, considered that
it would be the ruin of the Aristocracy, and that no
Minister of the Crown could form an Administration
if the Bill was carried into effect. He believed that
if the Aristocracy did not rally round themselves,
they would soon find that the House would be shaken to
its foundation, and that the power of the Crown would be
every day diminished.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl GREY said, that with respect to the petition, which
the Noble Lord had stated was signed by no one respectable
individual, be had received it as a petition emanat-
ing from a county meeting, and held under the autho-
rity of the High Sheriff. No opposition whatever had
b.ta made at tiiis meeting. and the petition
was agreed to by upwards of 1,300 persons, every one of
whim was registered es a freeholder of ten pounds.
The Noble anal Learned Lord had asserted that no person
had -iened the petition but those of the very lowest de-
scription. He would at once contradict the Noble Lord
in that assertion, by stating that it was signed
by the High Sheriff, by Dr. Alexander 111‘Dennell,
a plo-sician of great eminence, and by Mr. Ford, who at
one time represented ti.e county of Down in Parliament.
The Noble Marquis had stated that the measure had not
met with the universal approbation of the country. Now
he most positively asserted, in the presence of the
Noble Lords who were capable of contradicting him
if he stated that which was not the fact, that
there never did prevail in this country so general
a sentiment in favour of any measure --(Hear, bear)—as
that which hail been expressed in favour of Parliamentary
Reform. With respect to the principte on which the
measure proceeded, he would not be induced on this occa-
sion to follow the Noble Lord through his arguments
on the merits of the Bill, as these arguments had
consisted of assertions totally without foundation. He,
however, would state that tie principle of the mea-
sure was a principle of Reform—a thing which the
present state of things required, namely an altera-
tion of the repre.entati in of the people in Parlia-
ment. Among the mos- strenuous oppositionists there
Lad net been found a single individual who could
deny that propesi ion. For the purpose of bearing out that
a,gument he would refer to the division that had
taken place in the House of Commons the other night.
How had that division been obtained but by the admis-
sion of every ne present of the necessity of some Reform ?
It had hien stated in that House, if the second
reading was ant carried, that acting upon the piin-
ciple which had been now proposed by Ministers, an-
other measure of Reform, though not the same, should
he brought forward in favour of that principle; therefore
be Lad not (tally the declarations of the people, but
the unanimous vote of the House of Commons on
both sides, and that too in one of the fullest houses
that ever was assembled. The Noble Earl went on to
observe—the Noble Marquis (Londonderry-) says, that
this measure goes too far—that he admits the necessity of
Reform ; but then, he says that it ought to he a gradual—
a safe Reform—a Reform—bit-by-bit.—(Hear, hear ) In
other w, rds, the Noble Marquis wants a Reform which
will satisfy nobody, and which will only sow the Feeds of
Aisappointment throughout the nation, and ultimately lead
to the adoption of a measure in a much worse shape, forced
upon Parliament and poised under much has favourable
circumstances. But then the Noble Marquis says, that
this will be a resting place—a step towards annual Parlia-
ments, universal suffrage, and the ballot, and he is pleased
to add, that he knows that I am adverse to these, anal is
glad that in case the measure passes, he, and thoea who
agree with him, will have my assistance in opposing thee?
pretensions. This, lie says, is a great consolation to him ;
but that is a consolation which the Noble Marquis might
have had long ago, for I have always declared against an-
nual Parliaments and universal suffrage, also to vote by
ballot, from the time that that method of Reform
was mentioned, for it is only lately that it has engaged
the public attention. But then, he says, that what was
expected from us was moderate Reform, and that this
Reform is not moderate. The Noble Marquis may re-
member, that as soon as I had taken office I declared that
I was so strongly impressed with the justness end reason-
ableness—not to say the necessity for Reform—that / would
immediately address myself to prepare a moderate, cer-
tainly, but also an efficient measure of Reform, thinking
this the best, if not the only way to conciliate the favour
of the best men of all classes of the community, and to
secure public confidence in the Parliament and the Gover-
ment. And is hen I was, very unexpectedly on my part—
I rather wishing to avoid than to court the distinguished
honour—but when I was called upon by his Majesty to
take the management of public affairs into my handy, a
proposal which was made in so gracious a manner, that I
shall remember it with gratitude and affection as long as I
live—l felt eo strongly on this subject, that I tank the
liberty of telling his Majesty that without hieing allowed to
propose some measure of this kind, it would be impossible
for me to serve him effectually or successfully. The Noble
Marquis says, that an undue use has been made of the
sacred name of his Majesty, fur the purpose of influencing
the public todeclare in favour of the measure, and order-
ing Members of Parliament to vote for it, and in order to
give force and weight to the statements and arguments of
Ministers in its suppnrt. I think the Noble Marquis will
acquit me of any practice of that sort, nor do I know that
any one of us has made uset
.of his Majesty's influence or
Paine in the matter, excep
far as to say that, since
the ineabure was proposed by "b•
ljesty's Ministers, it
must be notorious, according to X A.
principles and practice
of the Constitution, that it had the sanction of his Ma-
authority it could not
j„ty, without whose sanction and
have been introduced by his servants. I know of no other
way in which any use has been made of his
Majesty's
name ; and to say in that woy that the measure has his
Majesty's sanction, is to say nothing but that which must
benoto.ious to every body. The Noble Marquis says that it
was unworthy of one to lend my authority to on improper
use of his Majesty's name, I have done no such thing, Eye,
if I could b aye, under any circumstances, made an improper
use of his Majosty'e n ime, teere wee, in this instance, no
,
rimestersa fur .t, for I am convinced that the measure bus, on
its own merits, secured the almost unanimous approba-
tion of the nation, although the Noble Marquie thinks that

it is only a resting place; a step to universal suffrage, an-
nual Parliaments, and vote by ballot. I can only say
that these things are no part of my measure, and I say
further, that it has no tendency to lead to Vitae things,
but that, on the contrary, its tendency as well as its object
is to exclude them. There is nothing here in favour of
ballot, or annual Parliaments, or universal suffrage; and
I have enly further to add, in answer to those who ni,y
-oppose that there is any difference among his Majesty's
Ministers about it, that there is not a clause in it in which
all of us have not concurred. Under the circumstances,
I leave the House to judge whether we have made any un-
due use of his Majesty's sacred name and authority. But
then the Noble Marquis says that threats of dis.olution
have been thrown out, and he calls upon me to make a
declaration on the subject. I shall make no such declara-
tion ; but, at the ssme time, I have no objection to say
that I consider myself completely committed by, and iden-
tified with the measure, and by this upasure i shall stan:l
or fall. That in so complicated a scheme, formed upon such
a large and extensive subject, something may not require
to be altered, is certainly more than I can undertake to
assert : but this I will say, that, as far as depends upon
me, I will suffer no alteration to be made that will detract
I from its efficiency. As an efficient measure, I will stand
or fall by it ; and without throwing out any threat
of dissolution, I have no objection to say, that in order
to support and carry into effect this measure, as an
efficient measure, there are no means sanctioned by the
principles and practice of the Constitution, and by a de-
* voted sense of public duty, from the employment of which
I. will shrink. —(1-Tar.) Further I shall not say on
that subject. The Noble Marquis has said, that he supposes
that I have too great a regard for my Order—a regard
a! one time imputed to me almost as a crime—to desire to
prr;mote any revolutionary measure. I have supported,
and will support, that order, because I think that it is ne-
cessary to the preservation of the Constitution that it should
exist. lam by station, and still more by disposition and
habit, a member of the aristocracy. But I support it as
an order only because it is a necessary order in the State,
because it is a necessary link between the Crown and the
people, and because its existence contributes to the good of
the community. Whenever the aristocracy ceases to be
this, then lam no loner a member of the aristocracy.
But while it continues to be this, and while its rights and
privileges are conducive to the preservation of the rights
and privileges of all, I repeat. that I am ready to stand or '
' fall with it. It is to support and preserve that order that
I have taken from them, by this measure, a power which
renders them odious to the people, and restored to them the
means of cultivating a good umlerstanding with the people,
and of satisfactorily discharging those public trusts for
which their privileges were given them. I shall say no
more on the subject at present, but I could not sit alto-
gether silent, under the imputations which the Noble
Marquis has been pleased to throw nut against his Majesty's
Ministers. As to the petition of the freeholders of Down.
I leave it as it is, with the statement which I was in
strutted to make respecting it. When the time comes for
the regular discussion of the measure of Reform Proposed
by his Majesty's Ministers, I shall be prepared to show that
it is one which the occasion and the voice of the nation
demands, and one which may be adopted with safety and
advantage to all classes.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained, that
Colonel Ford hail at at first opposed the petition, although
he had signed it afterwards on its being altered, and that
Doctor Macdonnell had no great property in the county.
He could have no pretensions to contend in declamation
with the Noble Earl, but he must support his own opi-
nion according to the best of his ability—however unequal
he might be to contend with such fearful odds as the Noble
Earl.

The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE observed, that he ap-
proved of the principle of the measure, and then made
some observations on the petition, which could not bo
head at the bar.

The Duke of WELLINGTON had no desire to prolong
this discussion. He perfectly agre.d with those who
thought it irregular and inexpedient to be continually start-
ing these incidental debates—when they could not have
before them all the topics to which it was necessary to at-
tend, in order to ascertain what were the real opinions Of
their Lordships with reference to this measure as a whole,
and in detail. It was with great unwillingness, therefore,
that he rose to say a few words respecting some of the ob-
servations made by the Noble Earl. Far be it from him
to say that Ministers were desirous to promote the adop-
tion of any measure which they believed to have a revd-

lutionary tendency. But at the same time it was num',
fust that the measure introduced by them does make a
complete alteration in all the existing interests of
the country—that it introduces a complete change
of the class of men who may have to conduct his
1114jesty's Councils, and be entrusted with the public con.
fidenee in Parliament. It has a most serious effect on

all public interests—so very s,rious that he could not re-
gard it without apprehension. He knew very well that Dli-
ni•ters did not desire revolution, but he could not but per-
ceive that the adoption of the measure would introduce an
alteration in all public interes's which must be followed
by an alteration of men and of system. For what reason,

then, was all this done? He saw no rtason whatever for
altering the Constitution of Parliament. Parliament had
hitherto well served the country, and within these few
years had passed many excellent measures. He could stie
no reason whatever for the change, except that it was to
gratify individuals--a considerable number of individuals
certainly—perhaps the majority of individuals, and that
was no sufficient reason for such an important chat,ge.
When be said this he had no interest in the matter, ex-
cept that interest which every other man bad to uphold
Ve institutions of his country. He had been a servant of

hi. Majesty for niiarly—he was sorry to sly—half a cen-
tury. He had been forty-five years in his Majesty's ser
vice, arid during thirty of these years, constituting so
eventful a period, he had led his armies—(Hear, hear,)--
and had beep employed on embassies and in his Majesty's
Councils, and, from all the experience which he had ac-
quired, he felt it his duty to say, that he entertained the
most serious apprehensions that the adoption of the mea-
sure would be rollowed by the downfall of the Constitution
of this country.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE observed that the
Noble Duke himself admitted, that although the measure
was, in his opinion, introduced fur no other reason than
to please individuals, yet these individuals might be the
majority—an admission that a majority of the commu-
nity was in its favour. But it was not a large majority
that approved of it, but almost the whole of the COlll-
- and this was a strong reason far concluding that
it was well calculated to promote the best interests of ad
classes. Although he could not agree with the assertion of
the Noble Duke (Wellington), that the Ministerial plan
of Reform had been introduced for the purpose of pleas-
ing individuals, because lie thought the m«asure was emi-
nently calculated to promote the general good, rather
than individual interests, yet he quite concurred with
the Nobie Duke in thinking that the proposed Reform
would please the majority of the individuals, and that
was one reason wherefore it pleased him (the Marquis
of Clanricarde), and fur which it should'have all his sup-
port. -4 Hear.)
. . _

Lord FARNHAM did not think that the decision of
Parliament ought to be governed by opinions of a majo-
rity of the individuals in the nation, but that the sense of
a majority of the people of property and intelligence—
(Hear, hear)—ought to influence the sense of Parliament.
The majority of the people of every country were the
least capable to form just opinions on questions of public
government.—(Hear.)—He well knew that the sense of
the tnaj,,rity, numerically taken, in Ireland, would be
found to be highly favourable to the measure, inasmuch as
Tat majority was unfriendly to the interests of Englan,l.
(ifearp)—But he also knew that a majority of the persons
of property 4.'nd intelligence in that country were decidedly
opposed to the Reform plan.