The Sun.
London, England, 1825-03-02 00:00:00

EAST INDIA HOUSE, Mardi t, 1825.

THE' 'COURT of DIRECTORS of the
litY) UNITED COMPANY of MERCHANTS of ENG-
KANO TRADING to the EAST INDIES, do. hereby give
Notice, •
That a GNERAL COt:11T of the said Company will he
by Adfourntoent,attheir House in Leadenhall-street, can
SHPRSDAY NEXT, the 3d inst., at Eleven o'Clock in the
rtireniyini; for the purpose of continuing the konsideretion " of
the, Hyderabad Papers now before -the Proprietors, as far
tiley respect the conduct of the Most.Nohle the Marquis
4flialting, late Governor-General of India."
JOSEPH DART. Srcretary.

'INTERESTING To LADIES.
ELF,O-NORA.'S'FINE SANG OILS,
PASTE, and LAVO CBE:\ 51:--The valuable
Recipe having laid.dormant for some time, in consequence of
the death of the Proprietors, the Grand-daughter is induced, in
consequence of the numerous applications front the Nobility
and Gentry, to introduce those valuable Articles again. 'Sand
Oil, the only invention to eradicate and prevent the growth of
superfluous flair, has been experienced by the first .Nobility,
and never known to fail : sold in packets, containing de-
pilatory pot and phial. ss. Sago Paste the .Proprietor par_
,ticularly, recommends to Ladies as a most excellent pieventa-
tive against the efFects of the sun and any inclement weather,
before riding or after sea-bathing; it beautifies the hands
beyond any thing ever made
,known, and cleanses the skin
from impurities, and renders it delicately white and smooth,
which. Lailies will:perceive, after using it one month they will
have no ticeasiOn, for any other addition ; it is also an ines-
timable remedy for, all scalds, burns, and chilblains. Lavo
Cream, justly esteemed for its excellent properties, by adding
exttaordinary,clearness or fairness to the complexion; used
after the measles or small-pox it will cause the marks to wear
Ow; it preVents the bands or any other part front chapping, or
'nlart in wirer ;. and particularly agreeable to gentlemen after
xhaviiik, as it cools anti heals the 'disagreeable remaining heat.
131t1 by appointment by Messrs. Sanger, 150, Oxford-street;
Gattie and:Pierce, 57, New Bond-street ; and by the Proprietor,
bit.% Williams, 54, Gloucester-street, Queen-square, Holborn.
Where ilso may be had, of the PrOprietor, Cold Cream and
lavender Water, of superior qualities.

EXCELLENT,: COPYHOLD .1) WELLING-HOUSE,
• BETH NA L-G REE N. .
, • TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION.
-LIY Air. DENT, at the AUCTION MART' opposite the
Bank of- England, on Friday, the 11th day of March, at 12
o'clock, by order of the Trustees of the late Mr. Dock"wray.
THE. Premises consist of an excellent Roomy
Dwelling-House, situate No. 20, on the East side and
very best part of ' Bethnal Green, containing two rooms on each
of their stories, with Kitchen, 'Wash-house, and other Offices
behind, opening into a large Garden, at the bottom of which is
a' Stable,- having a back entrance from Gretton-place ; the Whole
as good repair, having had a large sum expended by the pre-
sent Tenant, who' has a Lease thereof, 8 years of which are
-"'eqired at the very IoW Rent of 281. per Annum. The pro-
perty is Copyhold of inheritance held under the Manor of
;!:•ateposy,
subject to a quit Rent of. One Shilling per Annum,
-and„a fine of Shillings on death or alienation, . .
May be. viewed by leave of the Tenant, of whom, printed
Particulars may be had. Also at the Blind-Beggar, near. the
prernieee ; at tlie Place of Sale ; of Mr.WrighuSolicicor, Stock-
mm ; of Messrs. Perkins and Frampton, soMfitor, Grayi Inn ;
and of Mr. Dent, Land Surveyor, Catmien.Town.

' 'BAKER'S PATENT
14_ BAKER.` and SON, PATENT 'MAN-
-.
,KE, ENGINE,' and PRESS MAKEBS to 1-lIS
40A,i.E0STY and the RO'YAL FAMILY, re§pectitilly acquaint
the,Public,•they. have manufactured a lot ge"Assi,rtment of
I);ate,nt Mangles,. Washing, Wringing, Crimping, and r-
lttg with every Article used in the Laundry.
ektrffscoking.. Engines. Ploughs, Drills, Haymaking Ma-
CLisies, Kati and Bean Mills, Turnip Cutters, %Winnowing
Machines; Corn Screens, Shovels, Sieves and Measures,
131-.lllroro's Cattle Tubes, Hay Truss Knives, Drag Collect-
ing Rake's,- and Agricultural Impleurents 'of every desciiption.
BA/yr Churlisand Cheese Proses, Milk Pails, and Bowls,
Avitkotfier•Dairy UtensilS. •
Garden and Green:house Watering Engines, Rollers and
.11,Lirows, Daisy Rakes, Insect Destroyers, and Horticultural
Cane, Top Cutters and Casada Presses; Coffee Fanners,
Roasters ; India Corn Mills, with East and West
. .
Purtable .Corn Mills, Family Scales and Weighing Ma-
(.l.innet!s). Patent Filterers, Shower Baths, Borinet
Machines, Portable Water Closets, Cinder Sifters,
anitTable Cloth Presses, with a variety of other Domestic
iiii34Cornurercial Machines.

To be seen at the Patent Mangle Manufactory, 64, 65, and
C 6; Pore. strvet, Cripplegate, and 309, Oxford-st:ert, uppo-
site. Fladong's Hotel.

In the Piess,
OBSERVATIONS on the LAW and PO-
, - I.ICY of JOINT STOCK CONIPANIES. • -
q H. BELLENDEN KERR, Esq. F.R.S. of Lincoln's Inn..
London: Printed for Joseph Butterworth and Son, Law
o,oksellers, Fleet.stritet ,•• and Longman and Co. Paternos-
ter.4ow

This flay was published,
THE LADY'S MAGAZINE, or Mirror of
1. the Belles: Lettres, Fashions, Fine Arts, Music,
t•
"una, Six. !for February, 1845, price is. tad.abatELustimENTs:—lst. a highly-finished Engraving,
afror,D.rawing of 'I% Stothard, B.A. taken from the Tale
n 'the•os•Noutig Rubber." in the Tales of a Traveller.--
',V;-A View •of Linlithgow Castle, as described in Scutt"s
‘`ltarazion.-.-8d; Ladies,in the most Fashionable Dresses,
g4ntly coloured. • • •
• Among the contents of this Number will he found, a Pic.-!
,"!,'"e• Aloderti Manners ; Oxford Decarneron4.- The Life of
e Authur.of Bertram; Trareli in the East ; Strict ores
11°' Preer.nt 'Treatment of Women ; Theatrical. Anecdotes ;
4114Yg; Reviews of Literature, Fine Arts, Music, Drama,
g...thir Calendar of ,Fashions, Miscellaneous Varieties, &c:
Macriages, and Deaths,
1. London; Published by S-Robinso, Chater-house-court,
4ternost • • d ld b Booksellers and Newsmen muster-row , al) SO y

A-FFECTIONS of the RECTUM. and URE-
."‘A.,,. latitA entirely eradicated, without • the application of
if•PU'ie or Caustic, or the use of Mercury, and the whole
`,""lttai in a short time repqtablished, by JOHN LYNCH,
• Untie-street, St. James's..
Atito, Obstructions the Bowels, and Suppression of
14rine,' effectually removed, without surgical aid.
4111 Lett t- 'd Heine is in X-1 and £5 parcels.
pos.-pat .-- ,

FLUID 1,,X VItAUT OF SARSAPARILLA.
14-• this Preparation are concentrated all the
Medicinal Properties of the Sarsaparilla Rout, even to
.1 Perfect Saturation of the Nlenstruum with which it is Tpre-
.. ated. T. such Persons, therefore, who, from various causes,
~u?ld experience great inconvenience, or with whom it would
( t
be impossible to prepare the Decoction, the Fluid
, rad, which possesses the advantages of portability, and
01- keeping
in any climate, will be found a most desirable
1445de of employing this much•esteemed Medicine.
The Diseases in which it has proved most beneficial
e tbose of the Skin, such as Scorbutic Affections, Erop-
Nile Diseases, Secondary Symptoms, &c. arising from a dis
eased State of the System al large: It is 'taken in Water,
reTtering it of the same strength as' the Decoction. .
isioSol<in. Bottles, at 4s. ed. and 7s. 6d. by Butler, Chemist,
4, Cheapside, St. Paul's ; •Savoryand Co. 136, New Bond-
' Stt
, ,eett 1-420, Regent-street ; and by the principal Medicine-
• n ders-thtoughout the United Kingdom. • • •
*sr* Be careful to ask for "Butler's-Fluid Extract of Sal-.

Earl GROSVENORtrusted to the courtesy of their Lord-
ships to allow him to trouble them with a few words regarding
himself. They were aware that various speculations, many of
which had been attended with ruinous circumstances, had of
late been undertaken. It had happened, he was sorry to say;
that he had been misrepresented as having engaged in many of
those. Whilst he was in the country, he heard it reported
that he had gained 80,0001. by such speculations, anti .an com-
ing to town he found that rumour had doubled the 80,0004 and
made them 160,0001. Nay, his progress was said to be
still more rapid, and his gains to have amounted to
little less than 4 or 500,00?'. Now, there was no truth
in any of those reports, for he had engaged of late in no
on
speculations. He said . this for: the sake of those, who
hearing of his supposed gains, might incautiously enter into
ruinous enterprises. At the sairre time he was anxious to state,
that if speculations were not extended too far if they were bona
fide transactions, and carefully managed, he considered them as
highly advantageous both to individuals and to the country.
For persons carrying the surplus of their capital and their in-
dustry abroad, also disseminated with them the example and
the practice of their moral habits, and thus.raised the character
whilst they promoted the interests of their country. Hehad
thought it his duty to say thus much, to prevent the incautious
from being taken in by dangerous speculations, and at the same
time to.guurd against being.thought altogether inimical to,snch
transactions. when, they were directed to proper objects, and
honourably conducted.

.The Earl of ..FALmouTir presented a Petition from the in-
habitants of Penzance against the duty on Coals carried coast-
ways. ' Laid on the Table.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before four o'clock,
when he,proqeeded to observe, that as there appeared to be an
unusual large,attendance of Members at that early hour, he
thought 4 would,be for the convenience of the House, that
the name.lof.those Hon. Members who did not answer to their
nanies.yeswlay should be called over, in order to give those
Members.;wlto,v.Tre not there merely upon private business the
opportunity of feaving..the House. He begg.ed it to he under-
itood.that this was not intended to be conclusive on those-Hon.
Member*.tio did not answer to their names,

' The- Clerk then called over a list of
.names, many of which
were.not answered' to, nor did the House display any sensible
diminution of numbers.
NEW WR

On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT a New Writ was ordered
for the borough of liramber, in place of William Wilbeifbrce,
Esq. who has accepted the_Chiltern Hundreds.

LONDON WATER COMPANY'.

Mr. T...Wif.soff
.presented a petition from the pariSh of St.
John, Hackney, against the London Water Works Bill.
Petitions were presented in favour of the Bill,:from Shore-
ditch, Bethnal. Green, St. Mary, Islington, and several other
places.
These petitions were ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. F. BUXTON moved the second reading of the London
Water Works Bill.

illr. W. WILLIAMS opposed the motion, on the ground
that there were Water CoMpanies enough already,' and-that any
addition to the number would only create cOnfusion, and draw'
down ruin upcn many of them. He moved; as an amendment,
that the bill he read that day six months.
.31r, FREE MANTLE stiiirairtatho amendment, He coil-
fessed he had One into a Voirilitifeee on'a former Sefision.
strongly prejudiced against the Water Companies of the Me-
tropolis, but came out of it with:a Very different opinion. .He
considered that their efforts Were. in the highest degree laud-
able, and that the metropolis irteComfort and health derived all
the advantages of their efforts: l'He" hought the introduction of
new competition would be ruinouilo. some of the parties, and•
thus would the advantages at preiient enjoyed be destroyed.
Mr. BUXTON contended' that free:competition in water, as
well as on all other articles, .could not. but be beneficial to the
interests-of the Metropolis.. The lion. Member mentioned the
case of a schoolmaster, who had been raised in hii water rate
three times, a hundred per cent; eieli (Litre.
Mr. T. WILSON observeff,.thifthe Hon. 'Member who had= .
just sat down had omitted to state Wfiether the schoolmaster had
more than one bop wb'en he, began school, and less than fifty',
when-his rate was raised. • -

. After a few wordifrom Mr.i. Alderman C. Smmii and
Cuit'rEls, the House divided—
Por the Dill . - - 69
Against it - •
Majority for the Bill - 39
:CALL OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. BROUGHAM suggested-that the House should pro-
ceed•to take some steps relative to the Order for the attendance
of Manbers. • - - • -

The SPEAKER-said, that there was a difficulty.in the case,
inasmuch asthe hitter of the Order would be satisfied by an at-
tendance ott the-House at any one period of the day, whilst the
spirit required that. Members should attend upon the discussion
of the question for -which they. had been summoned. The diffi-
culty, therefore, was as to the infliction of punishment for -an
omission upon the delinquency, of which the House was not
agreed. The course which had been pursued had been to call
over the list of names whenever the House appeared full, by
which means the list had been considerably diminished. He
proposed that this should again be done. • - .
. After the list had been called over, still leaving many names
unanswered, .

Mr. BRO.UGHA3I observed,' that some punishment ought
to be visited upon those who.did not appear at any one minute
of the day, or any single period of the discussion. He sup-
posed they ought to have time allowed to twelve o'clock at night.
To•morrow he would.move, that the Serjeant at Arms should
take all those into custody who did not attend. And, in the
mean time, he proposed that-the Sergeant at Arms have the list
put into his hands, to notedowrr the nbn-attendants.
The SPEAK-EU said the 'usual way -was, for the list to re.
main in the hands of the Clerk, and Members to signify their
presence to him, otherwise' thrHon..- Member's proposal was
perfectly equitable, and to.ifrorreW they would determine on
the.course to be taken. . .-; • '

. .
Mr. BROUUHAM assented to this mode of settling the
question. •• • •
Mr. CLivE presented a petition from Oakingliana in favour
of the County Courts' Bill.—Referred to the.Counnittee on the
Bil L•-•
. Mr. L. FOSTra presented a petition from Dundalk against
the high rate of licences.
Mr.•HOBHOUSE- presented a Petition from Kerry in favour
of the Catholic. Association. ..

Mr. PowEx presented a Petition from the Protestants of
Waterford in favour of the Catholic Claims.
These Petitions were ordered to lie on the table.
Lord STOPFOIID presented a. Petition from the Dowager
Duchess of Buccleueli,• praying for some .compensation under
the County Courts Bill.—,Ordered to be printed, •
Mr. BROWNLOW presented a Petition from John Kirby;
a Roman. Catholic Schoolmaster at Blennerville, in the CouPtY
of Kerry. •The Petition had been, placed in his hands at the
end of the last Session, and during. the holidays he made.in7
quiry into the facts stated by the Petitioner, and found that they
were true. The Petitioner kept a school.at Blennerville for
thirteen years, with great respectability and profit. In conse-
quence, however, of the diminution of his.pupils he was obliged
to give up his school,• Before he did this, however, he pro-
cured a certificate from the Parish Priest, which established
his good character. In. February last • the 'Hibernian School
Society established a.school at .Blennerville, and appointed,him
schoolmaster. His scholars, in. a short- .time, amounted to
•I 00; • About this time the Reverend. John Quill, coadjutor of
'the Parish Priest; told him that he must give up teaching the
unless he taught them according to the
.f.„lle said he would rather go a begging
Protestantßonmnathclorillider melie.;
than comply with.such an .instruction.- Ori.receiving_this an-
swer the Priest, as • the Petitioner. represented, quitted. him in
a rage and threatened. him- with Vengeance. .Ors the nest
Sunday,. at church, he was pointed- out 4 and vengeance was
denounced against him as a reformer of the national .religion,

and those parents were likewise denounced who should
continue to send their children to his school. The Hibernian
school, however, still contained 60 pupils. The priest took
the opportunity, when the parents came to confession, to per-,
suade them to withdraw their children. In a short time the
petitioner was brought into great discredit amongst his neigh-.'
bours, and obliged to move to another part of the country, but
even then he was pursued by the hatred of the priest, and all
countenance and friendly assistance was denied him. Helves
cruelly assaulted, knocked down, and even his life was-put in.
danger, because he dared to speak against Father .Egan, the
parish priest. This was only one out of many instances of the
Catholic Clergy acting against schoolmasters who refused to
adopt their system of education.- -The subject was one of great
importance, and deserved the consideration of the House.
Mr. F. LEWIS hoped that the House would not be led into
a premature discussion on this subject, by the observations of
the Hon. Member for Armagh.--(llear !)—The evil stated in
the petition certainly existed in Ireland, and he (Mr. F.
Lewis) could mention a thousand cases of it. It was a contest
between the Roman Catholic Priesthood and a respectable
class of well:meaning persons. The one resisted a particular
system of education which the other wished to propagate. The
priests used their peculiar influence to prevent it,. and the
other party use such influence as was attliair command to ex•
tend it. Many instances of the evil results of this contest had
been brought before the Commissioners of Inquiry (of which he
was a member) during their labours in Ireland, and the Com-
missioners had endeavoured to provide a remedy. It was use-
less to intrude any details on the house now, out after their
report had been made (and it would be made soon) the House
would be in a condition to judge whether such remedy was ade-
quate. In the mean time he hoped no discussion on the sub-
ject would take place.
Mr. M. FITZGERA LD concurred entirely with the Hon.
.Member for Beautnaris (Mr. Lewis), as to the- propriety of
deferring the discussion.
Mr. PLUNKETT said that he had a few observations to
make respecting the petition. 'The petition it appeared had
been placed in the hands of the Hon. Member for Armagh
(Mr. Brownlow) during the last Session: He had not thought
proper to present it to the House until now., at the very moment
when the lion. Bart. (Sir F. Burdett) was about to bring for-
ward a motion respecting the Catholic Claims.—(Hear!)—On
that motion perhaps some allusions might be made to the Ca-
tholic Priesthood,and it was not fair to bring forward statements
against that Priesthood, which the lion. Member knew to be
true, but which no one else knew to be so. It was just there-
fore that the House should suspend its judgment till every man
had had an opportunity to learn accurately what were the real
facts of the case. He did not know whether the Hon. Mem.
ber meant to create any improper feeling against the Catholic
priesthood, by presenting such a petition at such a time ; but
it was certainly calculated to have such an effect, and he (Mr.
P.) hoped the good sense of the House wold interpose to pre-
vent it,—( Hear !)

. Mr. GEORGE DAWSON said that he differed entirely
from the Right Hon. the Attorney-(loneral for Ireland in his
view of the case. It would have been extremely wrong in his
Hon. Friend to present the petition, antil he had made some
inquiry respecting its-truth. -1k had done so, and then he pur-
sued the proper Parliamentary course of choosing his own time
to present it. Hon. Gentlemio on the other side of the. House
had acted in the same way. -
.Whey had loaded the table with
petitions reflecting on the character of Orangemen on the very
evening when 'anytliti-6ussion of the Catholic claims was to come
on,'Without aitrding:ttre'persons attacked any opportunity of
vindicating thernselVet. As to giving opportunity for explana-
tion and defence,.it was attir all very idle talk. The practice
of the house sirp44, hit ofieWeltber to assert certain things to be
true which sornelember opposite-.denied to he so, and there.
thentattergengett relied. It was liteduty of his Hon. Friend
to present the Detitltin; and. be Inte'done so. As to the remarks
of the Hon. Member for Beatinitirls (Mr. F. Lewis,) he did not
disagree with 'them, but he was convinced that the Catholic
Priesthood had been most active in checking the benefits of edu-
cation, and, this opinion he should declare at all times and on all
occasions. • •

Mr. GRATTAN denied that the Catholic Priesthood were
hostile to education. The real fact was, that the Protestants
.wished to teach the • Catholics, and the Catholics wished
to_ teach themselves. He joined in the protest made by his
Right- Hon. Friend (Mr. Plunkett) and he believed that the pe-
tition was presented to influence the discussion.
Sir T. LETH BRIDGE thought the Honourable Member
for Armagh entitled -to the thanks of the House for presenting
the petition. On such an important question it was desirable to
have all possible information. The petition -stated the con-
duct of a Catholic Priest on the subject of education, and the
Honourable- Gentlemen (Mr.
,F. Lewis) said he knew a vast
number of other cases of the same kind.—( Hear !)—He regret-
ted that the CoMmissioners had not got their report ready, and
in the mean time he should profit by the facts contained in the
petition..
Mr. BIIOWNLOW, in answer to the Attorney-General for
Ireland, would only observe, that he did not receive the peti,
tinn "Until the very day he was to leave town for Ireland ; and
as he did not wish to come before the House without knowing
something alto its accuracy; he had iluring the holidays exa-
mined into its statements. On the opening of. the Session, he
hesitated about presenting it ; -nor was he decided until yester-
day, when he received a letter front Ireland, blaming him for
the delay, and requesting him to present it before the-discussion
of this evening. After stating these facts, he hoped.she House
would not join in the censure cast on him by the Right Hon.
Gentleman.—( Hear, hear !) - • --!.. .;.: -. •7(
The. Petition was laid on the table and ordered .to be
printed. .
Mr. V. FITZGERALD presented a petition from the-Roman
Catholics-of the County of Clare against the Bill-for suppiess-
ing the Catholic Association.
A %l s,atuia under the Gallery supported(as was understood)
the prayer of the petition.--Ordered to be printed.
Mr. T. ELLIS presented a petition from the Guild of Mer-
cbants in Dublin against Catholic Emancipation.,-Ordered to
.be printed. .
Sir ELIAB Haavir presented a petition from Royden, in
Essex, for the repeal of .the Coal Duties.—Ordered to be
printed. .
• Mr. • BRIGHT presented a petition from Merchants,
Bankers, and Traders of Bristol, praying that all religious
sects might be placed on an equal footing with regard to their
civil' and:political petitioners were highly respect-
able;:entt well qualified
-to' torn an opinion—as well qualified
artlimirelf.-:-(Alattgli:).LlV-brit lie meant was, that as his opi-
nion.differed from theiri, he did not wish to say that they
were-wrong, orjoiapable of judging for themselves. He agree-
eci with the Petitioners in every part -of their prayer except
what related,to the Roman. Catholics. When he looked_to the
,printiples of the Revohition-,which was a Protestant Revolu-
tion—abd when he looked at the uniform conduct of the Catho-
lics throughout Europe, he Could never consent to put them on
the level with the Established Church of England, or even with
the Dissenters.

'rite petition was brought up and ordered to be rioted. 1
• _ 6ir.J. NEWPORT presented a petition from Waterford in
favour of Catholic Enianipation, and another from the City of
Belfast. This latter • petition was signed by the late High
Sheriffand the present High Sheriff for the county of Down ;
by the President Vice-President, and Members of. the Cham-
ber of Coinmeree in Belfast; by two Clergymen of the Esta-
Chuich ; and by the entire Commercial Body of Bel-
fast, representing a property of five millions in vidue.—Or-
•dered lobe printed.
• •SirJ.SEBRIGHT presented a petition against the Duty on
Coals.—Ordered to be printed.
-Mr. PLUNKETT presented a petition from 700 Protes-
.ptaTiiinttiopla.thi
ne-oebaityityofilDf.ub Ireland—by s
It was signed by twelve of.,.the
most of the bankers, most
of the respectable merchants and traders of that city, eight
or nine of whose names represented one million of property.
The petition was so, just in its claims, so temperate in its
Tanguage.; that he would read it to the. House. The Right
Honourable Gentleman then read it, and it was ordered to be
printed. .
Lord NUGENT said that a petition from the British Ca-
tholics, signed by 21,000 persons had been put into his hands,
but he would not occupy the- time of the }rouse by presenting
it at pref,erit, as they`must be anxious to•hear the motion of the
Hon. Bart. (Sir F. Burdett.)-=(lear !)
Some Members thewrose to present petitions.
Mr. BR,OUGHA3I said, that after his Noble Friend had
consented to postpone a petition signed by 21,000 persons, and
relating to the Catholic Claims, it was quit unfair for lion.
embers to proceed with petition on other irrelevant -matters.—
(Hear !). • • • • -
THE CATHOLIC PETITION.
Sir FRANCIS BIaIDET'I bein g.now loudly called on from
different parts of the House, rove to present a petition from the
Catholics of Ireland" signed by 1005.000 persons. bite largest

number of persons who had ever signed a petition to that House.
The petition, forming an immense mass, was then laid upon
the table.
Sir F. BURDETT said, that filled as his niind ever was
with anxiety and apprehension when he addressed the House,
yet never had he felt that anxiety; `lnd apprehension so strong
as at present, when he was called uptin to discharge a duty to
which he was so inadequate. That duty he would have utterly
declined, if he could have done so without a dereliction on his
part of that warmth and zeal which he felt for the Catholic
cause. When he called to mind the great talentS, the high
character, and the splendid efforts which had been exerted in
this cause by the late Mr. Grattan ;—when the figure of that
venerated patriot passed before his eye in the glass of recollec-
tion ;—when he called to mind the fact that some of thegreatest
men this country ever produced had laboured in the cause, and
that the most distinguished living talents would probably be
exerted in the course of the present discussion, he could not but
feel the most extreme alarm and apprehension. It was, how-
ever, a great consolation that his deficiencies would be supplied
by the abilities of those around him; and that his weakness
would be supported by the strength of his cause. It was also a
great consolation that the great talents on the other side of the
House, which were generally opposed to him; would, on the
present occasion, afford their aid to carry this important
question. 'The Petition which he had just presented to
the House, large as it was in size, and numerous as it
was in signatures, was however but "a trifle light as air ;" and
represented but an atom of the great Catholic body, whose pe-
titions, if they had been thought necessary, would have filled
the whole space of that House up to its lofty roof. It Would
be unjust to regard it as a petition affecting merely the Catho-
lics. It would be unjust to regard it as an Irish question only. It
involved the interests of the people of England and the fate of
the whole empire. The grounds on which the_ petition-rested
were so strong and irresistable that he could not-conjecture how
it could be overthrown. On the claim of justice, sound policy,
right good faith, and public honour, the petition was immove-
ably founded on a rock. In considering the subject before the
House, he would not weary their patience by adverting to the
questions which they had so recently discussed, nor would he
touch upon 'any points that were calculated to excite in the
mind of any man the slightest angry feeling. (Hear ! ) He should
on the contrary endeavour to advance the claims of the peti-
tioners, by Conciliating the feelings of all parties, and by en-
deavouring toifierge them into one strong sentiment of regard
for the public interest. "He would avoid, therefore taking any
retrospective, view of the history of Catholic and Protestant
conflicts; he would avoid touching with unhallowed hand
upon theatewly-closed wounds of Ireland ; and he would en
deavour to reconcile the Catholics and their opponents, and
shew how necessary it was to the advantage of both to put an
end to the struggles and agitations which now existed in Ire-
land. In spite of the apparent tranquillity of that-country, it
was absurd to suppose that such tranquillity would be per-
manent, unless some new measures were adopted. True, the
Government of Ireland, by a wiser course of proceeding, and
by a liberalization of the old policy of Ireland, had•indUced a
temporary calm ; still it was rational to believe that the calm
would be of short duration if justice were not done to the
Catholics, and if effect were not given to the system recently
begun. Effect and permanency never could be imparted to
it by any thing else than full and immediate justice to the
Catholics. With respect to their claims on the score of justice
be would say that in times of real danger—in the times of the
Revolution, When a new Government was established and the
Old King expelled front the country on account of his arbitrary
conduct, that even in such times no objection was made to the
Catholic religion on any other than political grounds, that is,
on account of its tendency to promote arbitrary power,—
There were then two classes of Catholics—the religious Ca-
tholics, who remained quiet and undisturbed ; and the State
Catholics, who comblunicated with Rome, and interfered in
the-affairs of Government. In those times, when William
was received by one party with open arms, and James, being
expelled, fled to Ireland, the kingdoms were not united, and
James still remained the legitimate Monarch of Ireland. In
defending James, therefore, the Irish only did their duty._
They were not rebels; for they continued faithful to their King;
we were the rebels who deposed hint. The freedom of the coun-
try was at 'Stake, and we were justified in what we did, but the
Irish were not wrong in vindicating the cause of James, if
they were satisfied with his conduct. After, however, James
had shewn great pusillanimity ; after the Irish had bravely
fought many battles in his behalf, and had often been defeated;
after James had entirely abandoned them and William had
made great advances in their good opinion, and the country was
divided into two parties, and then it was that William sent over
inst'ruct'ions to put an end to the war, and to tranquillize Ire-
land.' The Irish entered into a treaty, and on the condition that
they should he allowed the free exercise of their religion, to-
gether with. some .other privileges, 'they readily submitted to
the authority; of William, tho Ugh there was then a French fleet
siding in the mouth of the Shannon. They signed the treaty of
Limerick, yielded. up their artits, and were thenceforth to be
-regarded,as Rritish subjects, Ireland became tranquil, and
King William united all the force of the crhpire to resist Louis
XIV„ establish 'the revolulloreand.consolittate his own power.
The aubsequentinfractions tht' Treaty of Limerick were never
meant, as securities 'against 'the- -10attholies, for there was no
need. ,of securities doeing`liie'es of' triumph and safety. In
such times the feelitigS of tfibuiph gotthe better of sound po-
licy, the Treaty' was invadoti in all its provisions, and a code
of laws was enacted,, the heaviest and severest that ever pressed
upon , a nation's neck; In befter times, and he said .it with
pleasure; those 'severe laws had been greatly relaxed. He
wished the Catholics of Ireland would never forget that within
a few years they had received the benefits of such a relaxa-
tion. It was better they should recollect the benefits con-
ferred than the injuries inflicted, for those benefits affbrded
a hope of the still further relaxation of the disabilities which
still remained. If the Catholics of . Ireland could forget
the bitterness of their former opponents, recollect the ad-
vances of their cause during the last, reign, and conduct
themselves with prudence and discretion, they must ultimately
triumph in that HouSe. So long as Ireland remained tranquil,
the ailed of England would continue to be enlightened on the
subject of their claims. He did not look upon himself as the
advocate of the Catholics of Ireland, nor of the people of
Ireland, and still less of the Roman Catholic religion. But
if he was not the advOcate of the Catholic religion, he was
not its adversary, nor 'of any other religion. He was of opi-
nion that all religious sects ought to enjoy an equality of
rights, if they were sound in their morality, and if they en-
couraged the virtue of their followers. The Catholic 'religion
was as faithful in these respects as any other. For himself,
he was brought up in the 'Church* of England, and would
if left to his tree choice, prefer it to all others. ' No doubt it
might
she modified to advantage in 011ie respects. With re-
specs to the Clergy of, the Church of England, a more enlight-
ened and a More liberel.hody of men did not exist.—(llcarl)
He .said this without reference to the' ecclesiastical corpora-
tions; for all cOrp'orationsetvhether- lay or ecclesiastical, were
of en intolerant and"trionopolizing spirit. The dottrines of
the Church of England .taught him " to do to others as he
Hwould be done unto,".' and the Constitution, of England
taught him that all who bore equal burthens.were entitled to '
,equal rights. So far, therefore, front its being a Catholic ques-
tion, the Catholics themselves stand upon Protestant ground ;
and in maintaining their petition, he did, it on the Protestantprin-
-1 ciples. It was a singular change in things, wherifthe-Catholics
were now demanding their rights on the very groiindi on which
the Protestants formerly sought to recover theirs from the Catho-
lics. The great objection now to granting the Catholic Claims
was the power of the Pope. Respecting this danger a heap of
imaginary fears had been conjured up, which had no connec-
tion m the world with reality.—(Hear !l—These prejudices
were, learned in early life out of *miserable books, by' men
whose minds made no athrance, and because their own minds
stood Still, they argued that the Catholics they read. of
were the same as those who existed now, whilst they were
in realitydno more like each other than this world and the next.
—(Hear !)—lt was a gear disadvantage to have to deal with
men whose eductitionhad been perverted. It had been said,
that " where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise ;" and.
' ignorance was indeed bliss compared with' the folly of those
whose prejudiced minds were incapable of conceiving and
acting upon those truths which led to human happiness. But,
it was extraordinary to hear the fear of 'the Pope urged as an
argument against the Catholic claims by that portion of the•
'Ministry which had been most eager to restbre .the 'Pope to
his former power by a great expenditure of money and men.
Ttey had rescued him from thraldom, reinstated him in au-
thetrity, and then they called upon the country to tremble be=
fore the very phantom which they' had created. If, indeed' the
power of the Pope Was so frightful, then the Ministers
served to' he impeached who had created that power, by' ex-
pending treasure and contributing
.sanlieee.. It' was, however,
the most imbecile of all conceivable things to make this an ar
gument for depriving six millions amenof their rights. Those

six millions were irritated, dissatisfied, and discontented,
and it' shoidd be recollected, that at the present - moment,
when the'balande -of power of Europe was dhatroyed—when
two or three great Monarchs had usurped -the. controutof Eu-
rope—and when those Powers- were looking- with jealousy
find alarm towards England—that it was the height of folly
to-expose Fix millions of discontented subjects, -to the' 4lan-
ger of being invaded at every moment by these arbitrary,
jealous, and grasping Powers. Ireland might, -if we• would
only do her justice, be made an 'impassable barrier against
all invaders ; but if justice were refused to her, :then she would
give the invader every assistance, and stab the empire-in its
most vital parts. If Great Britain was destined-to be awala
lowed up, Ireland was the sea in which •we must• be swamped.
Ireland was worth our alliance. She was the flaw in the heart
of the Empire, which exposed us to destruction oir the first
moment of attack. No man could forget the narrow escapes.
of the last war. If the French fleet! in Bantry. Bay :had
not been separated, and if the Commanders. had been on
good terms, anti hail i of mistaken their duty, there teas !no
doubt but that the interests of -England would .have suffered
greatly. Nothing but the grossest.ignorance on the part of the'
enemy could account for the attempt not having been repeated.
But we ought not to expect any more such escapes, since
Foreign Powers had, since the war, become.too well acquainted
with the state of the.country. The Foreign Journals, conti-
nually reproach us with our severe and illiberal-conduit to-
wards Ireland. We ought to profit by this manifestation of
foreign feeling, and endeavour by every
_ennciliatory mea-
sure to consolidate-the strength of the Empire. 'lf the claims
of the people of Ireland, resting, as he said they did; upon the
good faith of treaties, resting as he said they did, upon
every principle sacred between man, could -be refused on co
good ground of danger, justice, or policy. Evan-if there were
danger in fulfilling ligations so sacredly imposed, still
no doubt could be entertained of the policy of fulfilling our
own covenants. But when they were -bound by treaty and
the faith of covenants, and commanded by true policy as
well as all their best interests, it did seem to him to he the
height of folly, and utterly irrational, that they should not
complete the work they had begun, but stop with that parti-
cular exception which was sufficient to do away the benefit of
all that had been done before. If these claims were granted,
what would. the Petitioners obtain ? A few Catholic Gentle-
men would perhaps find their way into, that House, and some
of the first Noblemen of this country would certainly take
their seats in the House of Lords. The King's prerogative,
which had hitherto -been restrained by these laws, would be
extended so far that the -King would have the power of calling
Catholic Gentlemen to high offices in the State. What was the
danger Jn this ? Did they apprehend the existence of a Popish
King upon the Throne? He should really be glad to know
what was the danger apprehended; and until he did know it,
he found it impossible to oppose it in argument. He thought
the present time was peculiarly auspicious for granting the
question. The people of England were no longer -alarmed
upon the subject, and the Protestants of Ireland, he meant
the better half of them in every sense, were anxious for the
sake of their own peace and safety that it. should be granted.--
What then was the-truth ? Why that these restrictions were
kept up to maintain a small faction ip' diet pampered and do-
tnineerina infitience; But he Wished to doajustice to the Orange-
men of freland, and he was able to do-it irons-having had the
good fortune to be among them as well: as, the Catholics for
a considerable time, and he had. found. ;amongst both parties
the- utmost kindness-, benevolence, and.good conduct to their
interiors, as country gentlemen and landed ,proprietors. Ex-
cepting the low, petty-fogging class -which Wing, on upon the
system, and kept up all its violence and • factious spirit, it
was his opinion that a more honourable and enlightened
body of men did not exist than the Orangemen, of Ireland. Ile
said this with the exception of that principle of domination
over their Catholic brethren which was unfortunately imbibed
in their education, and naturally arose out of the existing sys-
tem. Excepting this principle, they were as praiseworthy in
their conduct, if not more so, than the landlord* of this coun-
try, and in saying that he believed he said of any other in the
world. There was only this measure wanting-to remove the
cause of that defect in thair character, and to induce them, in-
stead of living in a continual state of irritation and slim, to
shake hands with their Catholic countrymen, and to secure that
peace and tranquillity which they never could look for else. Ile
called upon the people of England to support this question;•not
only upon the ground of foreign danger, which lie believed to .
be imminent, but for the saving of the expenditure which.
land now cost this country. The Right Hon. Chancellor-of the
Exeliequerhati last might stated some small reductions to be
made, arid tlineagreatest advantages of which were, that they.
would reliev'ethe parties from the grievance of collector ; but
heie minefield for much wider daring.; here wits an opportunity;
dfn'tiCh larger economy. Let the people of Cuglandreliaale.
themselae'-liem the millions which they paid to suppoit .
th 6 preatirrayatem in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear 4-Llle...said
then, that the people of England would do better to, kad:
tliat• table with petitions in favour. of Catholic. Etruttiaipa'-,
tion, than to talk about the reduction of those taxes, , whieh •
they seemed to think of more importance than a question of
-this magnitude. Returning again to the treaty of larnerwkii— •
for- he would never abandon that position—he. could
.oserve
That there was another- treaty or compact, which though:un-
derstood, was never signed or producible—he meant . tkkat:
which was called' the Union. But it had- only-proved:a Ijiitoit
a parchments, when it was obtained by promising the people
and making them believe that they. should partake the. benefits
of liberal, equal., and just Government. They were told -4at
all those advantages were to follow, and that capital ..Was.to
flew into the country, and render. it. as peaceful and hapPy.
as England herself. These expectations and promises had all
been falsified, because this country had refused the measure
upon which alone they all depended. .Why, then,. shotild
they not now proceed to make the Union real,-snanot nominal,
-by fulfilling the promises under which- it was obtainedlrom
Ireland ? IVhen. the Marquis Wellesley was appointed to the
Irish Government lie gave that Noble Lord creelit..for his in-
tentions, knoWing that his feelingsawere true; warm, honest,
Irish feelings, such as were likely-to lead the Government to
a change of policy, which; -instead of -making distinctions,be-
tween the two nations, would Consider them ,as one united
people: He wished that the.discussion of:an Irish question, in
that House, should be entered into in the . same -feelings With
which they took up business relating- to Yorkshireor any oiher
portion of the Empire: He give credit to Lord Wellesley. for
what had been done, and if, as had. been-,said .by the Js-it
lion. -Attorney.-General for Ireland, he had got tier
.off:the
breakers, and set her upon the tide, of prosperity, he hopedtthe
vessel would 'continue to. ride safe, and,- above, all, thetaahe
would continue to be. well Manned. He also borer, aealftriotiy
to the merits of - the Right Hon. Gentleman himself._ For
whatever personal inconveniences he mightlhavt exposed'hiau-
self to by taking office under the present Government,
questionably exercised great talents in hie-office, and With' great
public advantage. He hoped the Right Honourable f.endaau
would succeed in converting the only one of -his .coillt4tre4
'who now remained hostile to the Catholics. He waa .oAptiy,
to read in the fices of four -out of five of his MajestY",o...alkWs-
ters on the opposite bench, sentiments favourable tcl them #tid
to their cause: To the. Catholics themselves -he-recommended
union and moderation, and . he' hoped they .would feu of ~eir
-cause to be advee ited in that Hou sea. where alone.it- eau,K is a
advocated with advantage, and . where, aided as
Principles of truth and reason, it.must ultimately prevail. rot
impeded in its course by indiscretion of their. own: 1-retlfaa
told: to look at the prosperity of Ireland, as the-result of what
had been already done by Lord -We/lealey!s Governiner4„7- if
that were true, what a liarvestaniallit they not expect .if they
'Vent on labouring in such a fruitful soil ?..- He had fortiinately
spent some time ip •Ireland—not„ iudeed,-admiring the beau-
ties of nature in which that country was so rich,- nor in enjoy-
ing those charms of hospitality; and society, which he believed
atrnicdt
kiwnhdepreenphlee
were carried further than in any other country—hitt njalaiag
himself acquainted with the condition and wants. of the ticeof)'__
The Honourable Baronet then..proceeded to describe, an in
toe were
:bheaibnigtatnhets
'confirming what Sir J. Davis had said of them,. th t
Lect 'them, and
willing. to obey the law if the law .would PNxistence. 'With
-such a people, then,„ and with 'a 'fertile .s
moot. sat rninldocednits
finest harbours, there
that there were no -greaterlovers of
the noblest rivers, surrounded -with the to render Ireland
was nothing wanting but good govern
jusiiceoiini Well watered with
lernewnished not to cOunect
a haply and a wealthy ccuntry.a.
CO make it the first- step
this qutstion with any other,
_b
“-baser -matter. Ile hoped
wished it-to stand unmixed
ne,
"el Ireland present cheerful hope
hset,hidad eb:aeurleretijkl Days
the vote of that night woald
;rev Was confident the House ivould
the line qua non -upon which.ail
find lastin future benefit..
fas last, stroke to the new systern of
tct be long- befOre it Piet:unite the two Ountries in the strong
cusquisitioni,aipßOAligion itiass
policY' which "'lid tPonstitution. :":no ,
otthers•:oeureldtonoptrotrcoeuedb::ee
• '
- 0..
blioenudsSeoof,itthheanßyrietirth,

) ,

`“,

,),

thought formerly necessary to inteodree. Because he did rot
iseauree that there was any man in that House at the pt
(toy who required it to be proved that a man's religious oponds
ought not to subject him to politicaldisabilities. But it was said
that some contingent danger was anticipated from the course
Be recommended to the House. Until he was, told
_edwhat that
daffier was, he could not oppose the argumenthtfocuonrdthe uproar'
it. He should, therefore, now sit clown,
and
ow opportunity of meeting them.—(ilea,,—'. The
Paronet then moved the usual resolution, That the House
should resolve itself into a Committee to consider the state of
the laws relating to the Roman Catholics, with a view to their
amelioration."
kir. CROKER seconded the motion ; and obsterved that it
referred entirely to the civil state of Catholics, whereas in his
opinion it ought to embrace the condition of the Catholic
Church, as well as of the Laity. He was confident there must
objects before they could hope to see
be a anion of these two e to Ireland. He therefore took that
ass . permanent advantage
rtunity of stating that if no one more competent than him-
-lel should undertake it, he pledged himself to bring under the
oaosineration of the House the question of whether a provision
snoold not be made for the Catholic Clergy.
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER said that there was a very large
poition of the Protestants of Ireland most anxious to find what
toe Hon. garonet (Sir Francis Burdett) had stated, to be true,
arel he,himself was one of them ; but they found it impossible
to separate from this question their alarm at the danger which
attended it. Ile remarked a great change of tone in those who
ndoicated the measure. Formerly they admitted that the church
of !retaind was to be held inviolate; but row—not certainly the
13art that night ; but there were Hon. Members of that
House who had boldly declared contrary intentions, and there
was now a notice to that effect pending. This doctrine had like-
wise appeared in more important quarters. They found the
Roman Catholic Bishops in more than one of their charges de-
claring that there could be no settlement in Ireland as long as the
Protestant Clergy remained, and calling die Church Establish-
ment a " gorgeous nuisance." The Hon. Member then alluded
to a paper which had been disttibuted to Members, and
which he described to be from the Edinburgh Review, stating
that the Irish Protestant Church must be got rid of before the
superstructure of the peace of Ireland could be raised. This
subject would be avoided by those who differed with him in
that House, but elsewhere they spoke out as plainly as the
Catholic Association, or as plainly as the inhabitants of any
parish in Ireland. On all sides he found that every means
were being taken to disparage the Protestant Irish Church,
and some of the charges used for that purpose he would not
deny were true. But there was no Member in that House more
candy than he was to take vigorous measures, if necessary, ot.o
enforce the discharge of every duty to which the Protestant
Clergy were liable. In the same manner the whole Protestant
community of Ireland were traduced. As politicians they
were called factions and Orangemen—as capitalists they
were said to be without funds—as landlords, their estates were
represented not to be of any consideration—and as a popula-
tion, they were entirely insignificant. He then expressed
his disbelief of the statements which had been made in the
douse and elsewhere, relative to the comparative amount
of the Catholic and Protestant populations, and proceeded to
azf tie, that-the disproportion was not great. As the House
had heard soohnch argument.upon this point, pe•.hope it would
have no objection to, hear a few- facts :—ln -the year '1672 the
_first calculationowere made upon thiosubject, by Sir William
Petty. ‘. it. appeared in his political -anatomy of Ireland, that
the population consisted 31t0,000 Protestants' and 400,000
Catholics. The next period at which they had any inforena.
tion as to the amount of population, was upon the solemn oc-
casion of Lord Charlemont's answer to the Volunteers, when
lie said " Never tell me 'that one million of Protestants can
continue to hold two millions of Catholics in subjection." Lord
Lharlemont was undoubtedly wring in his estimate, but this
showed what was the common belief at the time. In 1788, the
ist authoritative census was taken in Ireland by Mr. Bush,
and he believed that a more accurate calculation had never
been made. From this it appeared that the whole population
amounted to 4,040,000 instead of 3,090,000, as stated by Lord
Clawlernont. In 1821, thirty-seven years after this the last
census was taken, and the population was found to have in-
creased 2,890,000. But this whole increase was immediately
assumed to be on the part of the Catholics; and hence the
assertion that they amounted to seven millions. The lion.
_Member then proceeded to argue that the population had not
increased since 1821. hut on the contrary, had been restricted
within the amount of that period. There had been many asser-
tions on the other side of the House upon this point. Indeed,
-for thelast four or five years they had all the assertion to them-
selves. The fact was, that his mouth was stopped by the want
of documents, an obstacle which had no weight with Gentlemen
on the other side. He was now, from his official occupations,
enabled to speak from documents, and he should proceed to
state to the house his views of Ow state of the population
of Ireland, eountied upon them. Before he did so, he wished
to .set himself right upon one point. Notwithstanding
the fidelity with which the proceedings of that House were
generally given to the public, there often happened to be cu-
- rious mistakes in the names of places. Upon a former occa-
eon he made a statement relative to the town of Aughnacloy,
which was mistaken for Cloy-ne ; and the consequence had been
that the inhabitants of the latter town had petitioned the
House against him by name, and denied the statement he
made, which was certainly not true of Cloyne, though perfectly
so of Aughnacloy. He then proceeded with the statement of
his calculations. In the county of Clare, which was the most
Catholic County in Ireland, he estimated the propor-
tion of Roman Catholics to Protestants at something less
, than thirty to one. The next Catholic County was that of
Kerry, in one large barony of which, named Inveragh, there
were 14,000 Catholics, and the proportion there was twenty-
seven Catholics to one Protestant. But there were some
_ places in Kerry, where the Protestant population were
e condensed—and particularly at Torbert, which rendered
average upon the whole county about 18 or 19 to 1. In
the most Protestant counties, such as Antrim and Down,
the proportion was very different. In Antrim it was as three
and two-thirds to one in favour of the Protestants; in Down,
two arid a small fraction to one; and in Armagh, one
and a half to one. The conclusion to which he came upon
the state of the whole population was—that in the pro-
vince of Ulster there were 1,998,000 inhabitants, of whom
70,400 were Protestants. In Leinster the whole population
was 1,767,000, of which 370,000 were Protestants. In Munster
thellopuiation was 1,935,000, the Protestants about 200,000.
--lo Connaught the population 1,104,000, the Protestants
- 129,000. In the fOur provinces there were 1,860,000 Pro-
tesuints, and 4,900,000 Catholics; being as nearly as possible
in the same proportion as the calculation of Sir William
Petty. The number of Presbyterians was said to be 569,000;
he believed they amounted to 620,000. He took the Protestant
Seceders of all other persuasions at 45,000.—These he knew
were truths which, in certain quarters, would be consi-
dered the most unpalateable truths that had been uttered for
the last twenty years. lie must dctain the House while he
said one word upon the politics of Europe. Ten years ago the
sunporters of this question told them that there was no danger,
because the Pope was a prisoner, and the Jesuits were put
dawn. .But now the chair of St. ?eter was filled by a worthy
successor of the Innocents and the Gregory s. Ile believed the
,• -pent Pope to be a greater zealot than had ever filled the
papal chair for many years. Ile was told that the King of
Fr.snce had an eye to Ireland. He believed it to be as much
an.eye of relioion as of politics. The present reigning family
of France had three objects, the third of which was the indem-
nification of the emigrants, the second the establishment of le-
gitimacy, but thenfirst,reas one in which their religious zeal,
rose superior to their political ambition. Their grand object
was to restore the Catholic Church to its former power. In
support of this proposition the lion. Member alluded to the
csench law of sacrilege, the encouragement of the Jesuits,
*MI their being employed in the education of' youth ; and con-
tended that nothing could be more dangerous than the
alliazice of politics and religion. This was an epoch, too,
when the religious enthusiasm of all nations and all peo-
ple was excited• beyond all their other proceedings. The question
before the House was, -whether under these circumstances they
should abandon the -principles which had so long Leen their
protection—for it must not be forgotten that the present. system
was one of acentury'ogrowth. They had a choice of difficul-
ties, but that which they were now in lie believed to be the
minor one. They had at present a principle to rest upon, and
eye was the alliance of Church and State. If that were taken
away he should have no principle upon which to stand. He
might have in its place, treaties or compacts, but in them he
„wen no faith when they should come to new men and new
liens. For -these reasons he shot :d vote against the motion.
Mr. Secretary CANNING then-rose, and, in a tone of voice
sonion evinced considerable feehlenens and indisposition, spoke
to the following effect :—Sir, my reason for witting at this early
stage- of the debate, is my fear that were I longer to delay
addressing, you, the state of mys health would preclude me
from doing so at all ; and I am- anxious not to give a silent
vote on the present occasion. Under these. circumstances,
will imitate the moderation of the Hon. Baronet, who .has
brought the subject tinder- the considerationsef the House. I
will not enter into any controversial points, or into any topics
which might lead into an irritating discussion, at the close of
ualseevaetreedilrye
am which I may be unable to be present; but I will confine inyself
to the expression of the opinion
which 1 n
dh
eary
we
h r
ex-
pressed, and which I will again express,
Vasco; this
wa° subject may be submitted to the consideration of
' "diarnent or from whatever quarter the proposition for taking
it' •
consideration may proceed. I beg the Hon. Baronet
will.ant •
entertainr„Tfiselerstand my last observation, or sulpposeethaet
eve the inoweeordsee hi% thin slightest disrespect.certaitrliTyv
in
nortJine
yeeejoetsy ees'vliettT Ton%
wceo-vaevreage,reaj..thoLu n
undoubtedly, Sir, if
o any Q0)1°11'4111 advice had been asked on this subject (and I by

no means complain that they were not se), I might not have
thought the present the most favourable opportunity for the
agitation of the subject. Ilaving said so much. I will not pur-
sue that topic further, lest I should be supposed to urge it as a
kind of doubt of the propriety of the motion. The question
is before us ; and being before us, it is for me to consider in
what way to deal with it. Sir, I have no hesitation in saying
that I am ready to deal with it as I have always dealt with it-
-1 ant ready to give my most cordial and conscientious support
to the Hon. Baronet's proposition. Although, as I have already •
observed, there are circumstances which make me consider the
present as rather an unfavourable moment for the discussion of
this question ; yet, personally, I am far from being sorry that
it has been brought forward. Having so recently stood up in
this House to lend my aid in suppressing the irregular at-
tempts which have been made to carry into effect, what
I nevertheless consider a most desirable object, I am
not sorry that an early opportunity is thus afforded me of
showing that it was only to that which was superinduced on
this important question the I objected ; and that the feeling
which I ever entertained orl the main subject, is altogether un-
altered and unalterable.—( Hear, hear, hear !)—The principle
on which, as it appears to me, the present proposition is worthy
of the consideration of the House, is so plain and simple, that
I can hardly imagine on what grounds it is possible to oppose
it. I can easily understand, that any persons who are called
upon to decide in favour of the Catholic question, may naturally
enough require certain qualifications, look for the removal of
certain inconveniences ; expect security against certain
dangers (many of them, in my opinion, imaginary, some of
them, perhaps, real.) But I cannot understand how the simple
proposition, to inquire why human beings, all subjects of the
same Sovereign, all inhabitants of the same soil, all living to-
gether in the same community, all mingling in the various
kindly offices of life, all professing the common creed of
Christianity, should be excluded from the enjoyment of equal
rights and privileges—(Hear, hen!) The ones probandi lies on
the other side ; on the side of those who contend that they
ought to be so excluded. Sir, it appears to me that the state
in which we stand was justly described by my lion. Friend,
the Member for Louth (for whom I entertain the greatest re-
spect), when he declared that the present system was a century
old. At least that was a fact, not an argument. But, good
God—Sir, what is a century in religion ? If the system he
only a century old, then what we propose to do is not a change,
but a restoration. What I contend is this, that in the present,
beyond all other questions, to remain where we are, is to alter ;
to make a change, is to return to what we were. fly this sim-
ple statement, I exclude from .opposition to me all the enemies
of innovation ; I press into my service all the topics which
are familiar to them, unless they can chew that the change,
however originally necessary .(ant that original necessity 1 do
not deny), has become so inveterate—that the continuation of
its original necessity had fixed it so irrevocably that we can-
not go back without the abdication of every principle which it is
our duty to maintain. Sir, I feel myself niuch too weak to follow
my Hon. Friend, but there were one or two things in it which
I cannot quite pass over. illy Hon. Friend said that there was
nothing so hostile to the peace of mankind as the alliance of re-
ligion and politics. This was the subject which occupied the
first half of my Honourable Friend's Speech ; but how did he
conclude ? By a laboured eulogium on Church and State.—
(Hear, hear ! )—1 cannot imagine how it is that it never occurs
to my Honourable Friend, on the many occasions on which he
is called to utter those mystic words at more convivial moments
than the present, to ask himself if Church and State is not a re-
ligious and political alliance ?—(Hear, hear ! and laughter.) In
one of my Honourable Friend's opinions I certainly do agree
with hint. Ido think that all such alliances of religion and
politics as may lead to a divergence of sentiment, and a doubt-
fulness of allegiance eminently objectionable. And here again
1 will look for an illustration of that opinion in my Honourable
Friend's own statement. My Honourable Friend tells us, and
tells us truly, that there never was a period of the world in
which the feelings of religious zeal were so paramount
over feelings of political ambition, especielly among
the Governments of the Continent. In the accuracy of
that statement I perfectly agree. But what is my in-
ference front it? Mankind, sir, are at present divided into
two classes, by distinct lines of demarcation :—the line between
the Protestant Church anti the Catholic Church, and the line
between British and Foreign influence. Let us efface the line
which, in this Empire, separates the Protestant from the Ca-
tholic Church ; and by so doing let us strengthen the other
line of division between British and Foreign influence—( Loud
cries of Hear, hear to —These, Sir, are the principles on which
I have always advocated the Catholic cause ; these are the
principles ou which I will always continue to advocate it. It
must be quite unnecessary for me to say any thing to my lion.
Friend and to those lion. Members who think with him on the
subject of their fears for the security of the Protestant establish-
ment, I lately took occasion inmy place in this House to declare
anti to give a solemn pledge, that I. would go as far as any man
in support of that establishment. That declaration and pledge
I now repeat. Nay, more ; I am ready to declare, that, Willy
reason were convinced that we must stand as we are, for that,
'by proceeding we should risk that Establishment, hich is so
interwoven with our happy Constitution, I would, at the hazard
of being charged with inconsistency, contend against the Ho-
nourable Baronet's proposition. But it is because my reason
is convinced of the contrary, that the Honourable Baronet's
proposition receives my most cordial concurrence I would
have this country open its breast, and receive into its bosom
those who not only live in its allegiance, but support its go-
vernment. To conclude, I give my cordial support to the mo-
tion, conceiving myself in -no degree pledged to the details of
any measure that may be founded on it, but conceiving myself
pledged not to sacrifice to that object any point which in my
conscience i may believe not only hostile, hut dangerous to the
Protestant Constitution.—[The Right Hon. Gentleman was
much applauded at the conclusion of his speech ; shortly after
which he left the House, apparently overcome by indispoeition.l
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought, that if consistency
of opinion was entitled to the attention of the House he had
some claim on their indulgence, and if there was any subject
on which he could give an impartial opinion it was the present.
lie should therefore state briefly his reasons for giving a de.
cided negative to the motion of the Hon. Baronet, which were
chiefly founded Constitutional principles. His Hon. Friend
(i'dr. Foster), said that the present time was inconvenient to dis-
cuss the subject, but be thought it was still more—it was impro-
per. If the House adopted the proposition of the lion. Baronet,
it would appear to yield to menace.—( Ilear!)—lt would be said
that through fear on the very Tuesday after suppressing the
Catholic Association, Catholic Emancipation was granted. On
that ground, as an independent Member of Parliament, lie
should oppose the Motion. An lion. Gentleman on the other
side of House, (Mr. C. Hutchinson) had expressly declared,
that in a Parliamentary sense, he should terrify the House into
these concessions. Atter suck arguments openly avowed, lie
put it to Hon. Gentlemen whether, if Emancipation were car-
ried, it would nut be considered die result of menace and inti-
midation. lie should now state more particularly why be
would not agree to the motion of the lion. Baronet. lie was
told if these claims were granted, the Catholics would be satis-
fied ; but, on the contrary, lie believed if one privilege were
granted, it would only be made a stepping stone to the acquire-
ment of further. His Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-General
for Ireland, had for some years laid it down that, the Elective
Franchise was political power, and that only an extension of
the principle was then required. This to him was the difficulty.
He saw no certain limits when concession was to stop, and
therefore there was no chance of obtaining that peace anti har-
mony which seemed to be the objects of those who supported
the measure. Now seats in that House, in the other House, and

en the'Bench were sought, but bye and bye when those Privi-
leges were granted to the laity, the Church would put in
Its claim and seek similar advancement in the State. The
Catholic Association had voted that a Petition respecting
Tittles should be entrusted to the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,
and why ? Because, to use the words of that Body, the Hon.
Gentleman had taken the Church under his especial care.
But how had he taken it into his holy keeping ? By moving
twenty or thirty—no, six or seven.—(A laugh.)—Resolutions
the object of which was to slice and slash and share the pro-
perty of the Church as if it were one of the new floating
companies. He should next advert to the power of the
Priesthood in Ireland. Among the last accounts from that
country, it appeared that in Kilkenny, a Priest, of the name
of Magee, told the people that if Parliament.put down the
Association, he should still collect the rent ; tht his congre-
gation Should advance the rent on the altar as the price of their
redemption. Another reason why he should object to go into a
Committee was, that on all former occasions it was found im-
possible, even by tile friends of Emancipation, to propose it on
terms acceptable to the Catholic Clergy. The lion. Mem-
ber here referred to the opposition which was given to the
Veto, and other similar provisions at different times. The
Priests, in short, exercised not a spiritual, but a citll power
over the people. With the Catholic Laity he (the Solidi-
tor.General) could agree, because they ha,: no interest se_
parate from that of the State {Hear,
had an ,opposite interest. .In this country, Parliament, in
bear !)—but the Priests
the reign of Charles the First abolished the power even of the
Protestant Clergy to coerce the people, and confirmed the,prix-
ciole afterwards in the reign of,,Cha;les the Second. But the
Catholic Clergy still retained that power, and that was a main
objection to the granting of Einanciation. The present mea-
sure, in short, would not place the Catholics on an equality
with the Protestants, but on a superior foo
Hon. Friend, who lie regretted to-say had been ged His
R to leaveight'
bpd
the House (Mr. Secretary Canning), objected that any refe-
rence should be made to the reign of William 111. But they
were obliged to go back to that period, to form a. correct judg-
ment on experience. Upon flise grounds he. should give his
firm opposition to the motion.
had never delivered his sentiments on
theMsru.4e. subject of tiltleTtjatic question. since the year 1812, when

he submitted his proposition to Parliament on the death of Mr.
Perceval. lie, therefore, did not thing that as the Representative
of a large county, he ought to be longer silent. Ile felt it to
be his duty to proclaim his opinion, that there never would be
peace in the empire, until the question on which they were then
debating was conceded.—(Cheers.)---The Learned Solicitor-
General had argued, that if the Parliament were to continue
making concessions, it would not know where to stop--it ought
not to stop until it had done justice. It was the business of Par-
liament to frame laws, and obedience to them was the duty of
the Catholic in common with the rest of the King's subjects :
he considered the present as the fittest time for concession,
and that no better opportunity could occur ; he was inclined
to grant every thing to the Catholics, with the exception of seats
in Parliament. As to the fears that the Learned Member for
Oxford (the Solicitor-General) had expressed relative to the
designs of the Catholic Clergy, he thought they were vain and
idle. It was an indisputable tact, that since the death of Mr.
Perceval no Government had ever been formed, no Govern-
ment could be formed, in which all the Members of it could
concur in their views with regard to that question. From that
moment he looked upon the Catholic Question as carried—for
carried it must be, although it might be postponed for one or
two years.—( Hear, head)--The Honourable Member for
Lowth (Mr. L. Foster) had talked of the danger of granting
the prayer of the Catholics ; but he (Mr. S. IVortley) would
beg of the House to consider the danger of withholding it. Ile
would ask, whether the delay was not partly the cause of the
danger to which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. L. Foster)
alluded. At the same time that he would concede this to the
Catholics he would take care that the Protestant Church should
he as firmly established as ever. If they persisted in refusal they
would endanger the Church much more than they could by
concession. Ile would not detain the House much longer; but
he thought it right, upon this occasion, to express the opinion
he felt ; and more particularly as there were many of those who
sent him there that differed with hint in opinion on this subject.
It could not escaobservation that a great change had taken
e
place in the public mind, and a change, as it appeared to him,
favourable to this question. If a hostile feeling existed gene-
rally against it, how were they to account for the apparent
apathy that prevailed. No attempt was made to get up petitions
against the Claims of the Catholics as had been the case upon
former occasions. This was a sufficient proof of the change to
which he before adverted, and he hailed it as a great blessing.
What he wished was to frame a law that would be equally
binding to Protestants and Catholics.—(Cheers.)
Mr. I3ANKES differed with the Hon. Member who had
just sat down with respect to the change of public opinion.
The learned body which he represented had not changed their
opinion.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.)—A petition was signed
by that learned body, which was convened by the Vice-Chan-
cellor (himself a layman), and unanimously agreed to. This
petition against the claims of the Catholics was on its way to
the House. Ile did not know by what charm the change in
public opinion, adverted to by the last speaker, could have
been achieved, unless it was by a sly miracle of Piince Hohen-
lohe. With regard to the danger which is likely to arise from
granting these claims, he confessed his fears were confined to
the Irish Church Establishment. Systematic attacks had been
made in that House, and cheered in a manner which he could
not approve. The Catholics distinctly said, that the concession
of this question would not satisfy them. Mr. O'Connell had
distinctly stated that the Catholics had ulterior objects.
Mr. PLUNKETT said, he should not trespass at any
length on the indulgence of the House. He was strongly
disposed to give a silent vote, and but for the peculiar circum-
stances in which he was placed, should have adopted that course.
When last he had the honour of addressing the House on this
subject, he had also the honour of performing a similar duty
to that which now devolved on the Hon. Baronet opposite
(Sir F. Burdett). He trusted, however, that neither the lion.
Baronet, nor any one who heard him would suppose that his
feelings would he warped by the accidental circumstance al-
ludeeto. He was anxious, indeed, to bear testimony to the
temperate and discreet, as well as able manner in which
the Honourable Baronet had introduced the question that
evening, and he should in the few words he had to offer
endeavour to follow his example. With respect to the time at
which the measure was proposed,
altliqugh he felt that on this
irig himself', but others.
point there would always be difficultiell to ceratend against. yet
they did not arise from feelings ritektd
With a deep and intense sense of the importance of the subject
to his own country and to Europe, he should not consider any
time too early, nor any time such as not to call forth his most
anxious support. Ilis lion. and Learned Friend had however
' objected to the time, but he should be glad to know at what
time he would be disposed to vote for the Catholic concessions.
([Tear !) When the water was smooth—when the surface of af-
fairs waa unrudied—non pieta vioveri—or when turbulence anti
rocking winds prevailed,- he apprehended would seem equally
unpropitious to his Hon. and Learned Friend for admitting the
Catholics to the Constitution. Ile must concur however with
his Hon. and eloquent Friend, the Member for Yorkshire-UM r.
Stuart Wortley), who had delivered such a sincere and affecting'
speech—one more calculated than any he had ever heard to
reach the heart and understanding of the public, that he thought
there was a peculiar grace and fitness in bringing forward.
the motion at the preaent time. After having adopted a mea-
sure calculated to irritate the feelings of the Catholics, their
friends who joined iu that proceeding were naturally glad of an
opportunity to shew that their opinions on the general question
had notwithstanding undergone no change. He also felt a
degree of confidence on this occasion which he had not be-
fore experienced—for during the last three or tour years he
wae never able to meet any person in England who could say
that lie believed Emancipation would not one day he carried.—
There were also those who had opposed the measure, and who
front the temper, talent, and liberality which distinguished
their oppfaition, were its most alarming enemies, but who
had more than once declared, that it' they believed it would
impart tranquillity to Ireland, they should support it. Now, he
did not think that persons who spoke so felt in their hearts that
Catholic Emancipation was inconsistent with the Constitution-.
—(lleer !)—To his own heart the measure was as dear as it
could be to any one's. But, added he, "so help me God, I
• would resist it with all the energy I posses, if I thought it por-
tended danger to the Protestant Establishments of the United
Kingdom." The Hon . and Learned Gentleman then proceeded
to shew that in the ltill introduced by him in 1821, as well as in
those prepared by Mr. Grattan, the • permanent inviolability of
the Protestant Church of Ireland was made a fundamental basis
of legislation. Ills Hon. and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-Ge-
neral), had set out by declaring that he would discuss the con-
stitutional principles, but for the most part argued it on acci-
dental circumstances arising out of the Catholic Association.
This claim on the part of the Roman Catholics of Ireland was
a claim to be members of a free representative Government :
to be admitted to those institutions -which belonged to every
member of it. Ile considered them entitled to those natural
rights, but admitted the granting of those rights might be con-
trollied. Necessi y however ought to be clearly proved for
such controuL It appeared to the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, that individuals in a free State had the same degree
of right to the priviliges of the constitution that they had to per-
,sonal liberty. Both rights were liable to be defeated by the
necessity or expediency of affording protection to the State.
The Right Honourable and Learned Gentlamen adverted to
the dangers which threatened Church and State at the Refor-
mation. The Church of Rome had shewn a disposition to in-
terfere with, and controul the religion of the State. They laid I
claim to benefices, the right of deposing time Monarch himself,
and of releasing his subjects from their allegiance. The !
Legislature by the Act of Uniformity secured the religion of 1
the State. All the dangers of that (lay were at an end. The
fears of the Rethrmation were set at rest. When James the'
Second came to the Throne, he set the laws at defiance ; the
Parliament and the people then throve him from the throne I
and made the Church Government-inviolably Protestant. The
last danger was the claim of the Pretender, but that was sur-
mounted. 1793 they found the people of Ireland so sunk
and restricted, in consequence of their attachment to their
religious faith, that it was necessary to resort to lenient mea-
sures, which made the reign of his late Majesty the brightest'
part _
lsytemtoof
alesniitttylattliuorninign fortyw cit: years had
raised the utoherßho
oisutiary. l
n Catholicsthey ought to look up to all the privileges of the Constitution.
—they were good and loyal subjects, entitled to participate'
in the benefits of the Constitution. Six, or four millions of
his Majesty's subjectse-he would take either number, came
year Lifter year to chim the privilege of sharing in the'
benefits of the Constitution, and year after year they were re-
fused that be-on. They had been thus •dieappointed, and
this - country had to contend with the danger which might
arisefeam their dissatisfaction. The Honourable Member for
Louth had said they should not .look at present danger, but
consider the danger -which led to the -restrictive laws. Ile
(Mn Plunkett) was of opinion present danger only ought to
be regarded. Time goes forward said time Right Honourable
and Learned Gentleman. Ile never sleeps—he never speaks
bat is going on changing
human affairs, and it is wisdom to
watch imis progress.; all to arrest his course, but to adapt the
institutions of the state-to his chanees.--( Hear !) eo as to make
varied forms meet the varied forms which time hand of time
has made.
we do.this, history to us is nothing more than an old alma-
' What is this notion of danger of the present time,
t pass CUrra.lt.--
'lf we do not do this we fall into danger. Without
neck, and experience base coin, which cannot
dm not
prevent this desired change ? He did: not say there mit,
meett
the
legislate to
• be serious dangersif the House did not •
clamour-
wishes of the petitioners. If they came tonhat housec with
ous, lie should .despise their clamours. If
force, he would meet their force, but if they which is to
anmoearmour to put
of right, to share in the Constitution, he had only call tare his
'on against them.---(Hear, hear !)—lle could? y
theywith a claim
h re was something in
—He was told they could not do this. '-rne
‘lmissiOn to high office,
friends and co-supporters of the Constitution in p.eace war.
the (onatitutiou which forbade thP

of any but members of the Church of England. Was the fact
so ? Did not Dissenters sit in Parliament ? I,Vas it not known
that the scale were held by a Dissenter ? Prejudice only
sanctioned these objections. Dean Swift spoke of the repeal
of the Test Laws in Ireland with horror. He was persuaded
such a measure would overthrow the Protestant Establish-
ment; yet the Test Laws were repealed forty years ago, and
since that time the Dissenters in Ireland had been decreas-
ing. It was said they might admit the Roman Catholics to
civil rights, but it was another thing to admit them to po-
litical power. Was the elective franchise political power ?
Was the station of Magistrate political power' These
might be civil rights; and lie might ask what part of the Con-
stitution laid down a line between civil rights and political
power ? Ile knew of no such thing. It was a mockery to say
men had Constitutional rights whilst they were shut out from
the must valuable privileges of the Constitution. The right of
holding offices was considered by an lion. Friend a mere ba-
gatelle, and he would like to hear from that lion. Friend how
he would like to be in the situation of the Roman Catholics.
The House would have to decide whether any class of men
ought to be repreeented without their walls. If shut out of
Parliament the Roman Catholics must go to some illegal and
unconstitutional remedy. The only legitimate way to proceed
was to take the Roman Catholics into the pale of the Con-
stitution. The cure for the evil complained of was, to leave
things as they are' and depend upon making proselytes. The
Ministers of the Church of England, by Christian charity,
had done meta to gain proselytes, and he did not say that time
might not unite the two Churches, but the present danger was
urgent. So long as these persons were denied the privilege,
of the Constitution, much was to be feared. lie should take
the liberty of stating what he thought ought to be done. First,
to take away all grounds of complaint, he would put all parties
Clergy and Laity, on the same footing. Secondly, he would
make provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy. He was
inclined to think the Hierarchy of Ireland was in danger
of being pulled down, but not superseded. He hoped that
would never happen ; but if the Protestant Hierarchy were
pulled down, and the Church property was offered to the Ca-
tholic Clergy they would not accept it.—(Expressions of doubt
and dissent.)— The people of Ireland would never consent
to have the property of the country given to Priests. The
Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman expressed a hope
that the Church of Ireland might be held inviolate, and that
the House would say to the Roman Catholics, we will not deal
with your complaints unless the Church is secured. His be-
lief was, that the alarms of this country was not serious. The
Roman Catholics were tranquil and loyal. They remained
firm to the Constitution ; and if the Government of France
were to speculate upon invading Ireland an receiving aid
from the Roman Catholics, they would deceive themselves. If
the time should ever come for meeting the invasion, they would
rally round the State, and spew their loyalty and affection for
the House of Brunswick.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, notwithstanding the House had
been occupied so long with this question, he felt he had spe,
cial claims on its indulgence for a short time, which, lie
would ask to elicit truth from the free expression of opinion.—
The House would, doubtless, enable him to state the ground
on which he differed from the honourable Baronet. He
should attempt to follow the very able, temperate, and con-
stitutional speech of the Honourable Baronet. The Right
Honourable Secretary conceived that the lion, Baronet had
placed the question on three grounds—first, the Treaty of
Limerick; secondly, Natural Right ; and thirdly, Prudence
and Policy. On the first point he should say, if the Ilemourable
Baronet, the Member for Westminster, had placed his reliance
on any claim the Romen Catholics of Ireland had upon
the face of a treaty between them and the Crown, he should
have been disposed to pay the greatest attention to that treaty.
The Honourable Baronet had elluded to the treaty of Lime-
rick, and he ( Mr. Secretary Peel) was prepared to deny that
any claim of the Roman Catholics could rest on the treaty of
Limerick. It was for the House to dechte whether in with-
holding the claims of the Roman Catholics, they denied any
rights which the makers of that treaty had promised to grant.
Be might ask .the Honourable Baronet whether there had
been any infringement of the Treaty to which the Honour-
able Baronet alluded. With respect to the restrictive tette,
he thought several Honourable Members bad formed a very
harsh opinion. These laws ought to be considered acts of :re-
taliation. The proceedings of the Reman Catholics ought to
he considered. 'The Roman Catholics were secured by the
Treaty of Limerick ,from any disturbance on account of their
religion.
.A Bill in the reign of Queen Anne was brought in,
to debar persons from holding .property. :unless they took the
oeth of allegiance. Sir Toby Butler, In his argument against
the clauses of that 11111, did not say it was unfair to deprive the
RomionCetholics of property unless they took the oath of alle-
giance. 'Chic whole of his argument went to shew that the 11W
was unjust -to "Dissenters.. Be had been Secretary to James
the Second, and he did not claim finethe Roman Catholics any
rightio hold offices. the did not consider them entitled to hold
offices. elf so, there was.an *fewer to he claim of right under
the Treaty of ,Limeriek. 'With respect to the second question.,
namely, natural eight, sit involved a constitutional question.
Ilis Right Honourable and Learned Friend said they had no
more right to exclude a min from holding civil offices than
from holding his property. At the same time his Right lion.
Friend admitted that in cases of danger to the State a deviation
.from that doctrine enighebe good.' lie never could think a
man had the same-right to hold eivil.office that he had to hold
property. lie did not think that right had ever been urged in
-that House .until very lately. It could not have existed in
early thrice. Before the Reformation there was unanimity in
religion. .Since the Reformation the Oath of Supremacy 'had
been taken, and as Roman Catholics had refused to take that
oath there was an answer to all claims for office. It was said the
lexcluding laws were of late date. He denied that position. They
had existed since the Reformation. The right on .the part of the
Roman Catholics to hold civil offices had never been admitted
under any laws. It was held upon the discussion of the Bill
to disqualify
.persons from holding places of profit, that the
question relating to holding places of trust, rested with the
Legislature. A conference on points in the Bill was managed
by Bishop Burnet, Lord Somers, and others who were men of
high character. If the right to hold office had been consi-
dered equal to the right to hold .property, would the Lords have
introduced a clause in the Scotch Act of Union, which excluded
the Roman Catholics from office ? If they looked into debates
on the subject of the Oath of Supremacy, it would appear that
Lord Camden and Lord Chatham held the law on that subject
to be sacred. In 17a0, when the repeal of the Test laws was
agitated, Mr. Burke dissented on the occasion, on the ground
of danger from the Unitarians ; but all the doctrines in sup-
lort of the test and corporation acts must be wrong if his Right
ion. Friend was right, when he held that the Roman Catho-
lics had a right to hold offices. He (Mr. Secretary Peel) denied
they had a right to fill offices. The argument of Mr. Pitt
against the Test Laws was, that they had a tendency to abridge
the Royal Prerogative. If all the disqualifying laws were to
give way for Roman Catholics, what right could they have
to deny a person a seat in that House because he had not
3001. a-year ? He should always hold that the State had
a .right to exclude Roman Catholics from places of trust,
if necessity required it. He did not wish, as his Right lie.
nourable and Learned Friend said, to make history an old
almaneek, and experience base coin, He wished to look
back on history and profit by it. His wish was not to exclude
them from those benefits which the Constitution affiarded.—
-the length of saying all the laws on the Statute Book ought
Thetil e
I;granting
Burke, Roman
aCI Claims
etwiaosmth e
ns ueb jiet ci
(ti , :leo t lege
oe
to be retained for ever ; but if laws were passed three hundred
yeers since to guard the Constitution against danger, they
ought not to he repealed unless they were satisfied all danger
had ceased. The Right lion. Secretary then discussed the
question of prudence and policy. What was the object of the
Motion? It was to give power to those who had been long ex-
cluded from the enjoyment of power. The Hon. Baronet could
' not deny that there was danger in conceding that proposition.
Every subject ought to be eligible to office, but the law called
for proper qualification. It was better
ieteo(r:
iieonfuubsierteeadlatnisacv.kheettlititeorwtlalaes
constitution, than suffer the bearer, when he arrived at the por-
hsn:whould do any great good. He
por-
tal of the consti7ttiiioen,ntaotiloinay. e tllifebtyloaonryshnuletaanglailnist him by the
! supreme head o _ .. e could quiet
Ireland, he should be ready even to give up some of the
bpuretvalli
i outworks
doubted whether the removal of civil disabilities would destroy
.00ff
tthilesiedeCOisdoinrstsaltbeirtiuslittife
animosities and .
rather remarkable that in Ulster, where a large number of'
removal.
Protestants and Roman Catholics were to be found, they
agreed better than in other parts of Ireland. In the county
to which he alluded, the Insurrection Act had never been in
force. If the disabilities were removed, and the Roman Ca-
tholics were allowed to hold offices, the Right Honourable
Secretary, doubted much whether they would be td._
There would be a greater dissatisfaction arising fromsa '3e
having
offices withheld. When Roman Catholics were in that House
who could say they were not at liberty to pursue any objects
they might consider beneficial to the .country. The removal
of Roman Catholic property might be considered unjust ; and
what security would the ouse have against the return of
all the dangers arising from Roman Catholic Government.—
If sincere in their faith,
, they would wish to give ' •
power ahem
to their Church. When a man came into Parliament with-
out restriction, eloquent, and the leader of a party, who
could say he had not the right 7 to follow his own object .
(Hear, hear, hear :!)--whether it be to repeal the wisest laws,
or restore the supremacy of the Church of Rome. When
the question was an admission to power he had a right
in the exercise of a fair constitutional ealousy to look at the
tenets of a man's religion. It was curiousj that up to the pre-
sent moment they had heard ' • ..
securities
nothing about those
Which were formerly deemed so essential a part of this mea-
sure. Were they content to take them ulthout securities,

contrary to the practice of every State in Europe ? Let them
look at the state of the Catholic Priesthood of Ireland,
and they would see the same prelates, deacons, and titles
claiming apostolic descent, and ordination as they had ever
seen. And could it be supposed, that after the decree of this
measure this equality would cease ? He was not afraid of the
Pope, hut of that internal party in the State to whom power
would be given, and who were sure to be adverse to the
existing religion. Ile thought the Irish church would bet.
ter have consulted its dignity had it abstained from some
of those publications which it had latterly put forth. He
alluded to those which had reference to Prince Hohenlohe
especially. Those Gentlemen, who had been ready to burst
with laughter when the name of this individual had been men-
tioned before in the debate, ought to know the estimation its
which he was held in Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then animadverted upon a paper put forth by Dr. Doyle, cons.
mending and detailing the miracles of Prince Hohenlohe. One
of these was the case of the Princes Schwartzenberg who had
been confined to her bed from her eighth to her 17th year, and
spent 80,000 florins in medical advice, who was made to walk
by Hohenlohe. At Hanaburgh he had made two sisters quit
their bed under similar circumstances, and caused a Counsellor
who had long kept his bed to see his benefactor to the door from
a third floor. A Gentleman also was cured of the gout whilst
sitting in his carriage.—(Laughter.)—All this was detailed in
the Address of Dr. Doyle to the Irish. The argument founded
upon these statements was, that the Roman Catholic was the.
only true Church, and would alone stand. But this was not
all. In 1824 they had a letter from the Pope levelled agaius&
Bible Societies, and desiring the Catholics to expect relief
from some temporal Prince. He was of opinion with Dr.,
Doyle, that Catholic Emancipation would not allay religious
fervour, and that a struggle for preference would be the con•
sequence of such a measure. Dr. Doyle said it would opea
a passage to ulterior measures, and he should like to know
what those measures were.

" Still to new heights their restless wishes tow'r,
Claim leads to claim, and power advances power."
His (Mr. Secretary Peel's) opposition to this question had
always been uniform. He wished to give the Catholics every
assistance towards the possession of liberty and property. He,
wished also to see all sources of irritation between them and the
Protestants subside. But he thought it advisable on their
own accounts that they should be excluded from Par'bunco,
and the judicial bench. On this point he could not defer to
authority, unless he was convinced by argument. He had
listened, however, but his mind was not convinced, his hostility,
to this measure was not directed to the form or time it, bat to
the principle of it.---(Hear, hear, hear !)

Mr. BROUGHAM said, he would not long trespass on the'
House, because of the arguments brought forward that night'.
in support of his Hon. Friend's motion, arguments that were,
unanswered, because unanswerable. He alluded to the speech
of the Attorney-General for Ireland, and that of the Secretary'
for Foreign Affairs, and he would say of the speech of that
Right lion. Gentleman the more readily, because lie was ab-
sent, that in so short a speech he never saw so many unan-
swerable arguments—never saw more force or power of con-
densation than was exhibited in that short address. In conse-
quence therefore of these speeches, and the effect that could
not fail to be produced by them, as well because he had- a,
partial petition to present in a few days, praying for admission
into Parliament but he confidently expected that the result of
that night, proceedings would preclude the necessity of bringing
forward the Petition at all. He would, therefore, come at once to
the treaty of Limerick, and to that part ofthe Right lion. Gents..
speech that related to it ; and though an allusion to at treaty
had been made by his Hon. Friend, and though it was relevant'
to the question, still he was ready to give it up and argue the,
question without it ; but let no man doubt its relevancy when
it contained these words, that " the Catholics of Ireland should
enjoy the same privileges and liberty of conscience as during
the reign of Charles the Second." The Honourable Gen-
tleman proceeded to read an extract from the posthumous
works of Mr. Edmund Burke, showing the opinion of that
gentleman as to the injustice of the penal laws. He then
replied to the distinction drawn by the Secretary for the Home
Department between natural rights and the civil rights of
property. Ile contended that the distinction was not founded
on fact, and that the deprivation of natural right and right of
property differed only in a degree ; that one was merely a
greater 'hardship than the other. The Hon. Gentleman went on
to say that the granting to Catholics the elective franchise, anti
not allowing them to be elected, was a gross inconsistency, it
gave them the liberty to choose, but allowed them not to elect
the man of their choice. Suppose the Tories, who now were in
power, after being out of it for 60 years before, said to the Whigs,
you have the elective franchise, but must not elect a liThig
to represent you ; these Whigs maintain some damnable here-
sies : they say that 't power is held by the Monarch in trust foe
the people'—a doctrine that must lead to revolution and anar-
chy."—(A laugh.)—Suppose they should say thatsin their horror
of seeing those benches filled with persons whose creed was so
teborninably unconstitutional (great laughter); or he would put
a case to the Hon. Members for Cambridge and Oxford ; sup-
pose the power to elect two Members was given to these Uni-
versities, but that it was said to them, you must elect no one
of your own body, they are a set of narrow-minded bigots, to
whom experience is swindling and knowledge is pedantry—
(Cheers.)—lf you choose you may go to St. Andrew's for a re-
presentative, or you may go to Aberdeen ; you may there find a
useful and clever man—(Cheers.)—The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman defended the Catholics from the charge made against
them, of never being satisfied with what they received, and re-
futed the argument of the Honourable Member fur Lowth (Vt.
Leslie Foster), namely, that the Catholics were so numerous
as to threaten the safety of the Protestants. Now, that argue
ment cut both ways ; for, if there be danger, and he did nos
deny it, why not provide a remedy for it ? (Cheers.) Were they
to do nothing but submit; were they to grope their way in the
dark ; were they to shut their eyes and fold their hands to
sleep ? Although that House had been open for years to Dis-
senters, yet he believed there were not more than five or ei%
altogether returned ; and they had no examples of any propo•
sition favourable to that body having ever been Submitted g°
their notice by any one of those Members. He ridiculed the
Right Hon. Secretary's allusions to Prince Hohenlohe, and as-
serted, that if lie had wished to find an antidote to the dangers
that Hon. Gentlemen sought to deduce from the pamphlet, he
would have found them in the pamphlet itself. He described
the denunciation of Leo XII. against Bible Societies as more
nearly approaching the sentiments of some College. The HOU-
Secretary represented that he was himself aware, `and-elk
pressed it to be his opinion, that the Rt. Hon. Secretary woad
not find the praise of any Bible unaccompanied by proper come
ments of the church, a very acceptable theme, even from h.
lips, in these colleges. Ile denied that any danger could
accrue from the appointment of Catholics to high offices in the
State. They had a Lord Chancellor a Presbyterian, yet no one
complained of his method of bestowing church patronage
they had a Prime Minister a Socinian, and many others pre'
feeling heresies equally damnable in the eyes of the Church ;
yet he defied any one, from the days of the Duke of Grafton
to the present hour to say, that the Established Church had
ever been in danger from their holding such situations. He
admitted the great power of' the Heads of the Association, but
lie contended that the way to render that power constitutional-
ly effective, would be to give those whose opinions clothed
them with the power, the satisfaction of seeing their just claims
allowed, by giving them seats in that House.—(Hear, hear I)
The Attorney-General had said he might give his consent si)
their prayer, but he would not be menaced; this was puerile.
A legislator was not to talk of personal feeling ; he was a nose
tee for the benefit of the public, and must be governed in his
actions by just and reasonable apprehensions of alarm and dan-
ger from a perseverance in oppressive or obnoxious courses or.
policy. The Honourable Gentleman concluded a speech of
great argument and eloquence, which our limits preclude al
from even generally compressing, by imploring the House to
assent to the motion before it; as the only way to make tlue
measures they had adopted either safe or prudent.
After a few words from Mr. C. FORBES,
Sir F. BURDETT replied. He would not trespass on the
attention of the House after every thing had been said that
the weight of argument could supply to enforce the measure
he brought before the House. The only evils which had been
apprehended from granting the question were unreal, whereas
the benefits were certain and substantial. Ile would xecal to
the attention of the House that Ireland at present was fiat'
rounded with danger—it was a burthen to us in peace as well
as war. The admission of a few Roman Catholics would at the
utmost be the inconvenience of some few Gentlemen finding
their way into Parliament ; perhaps a few Peers procuring
seats in Parliament, and the exercise of the Royal Prero-
Oative of appointing Members of that persuasion to the High
ffices of State, should he think proper. Whilst the House
was sensible that this was the only danger, it' he might so term
it, to be apprehended front acquiescence to this measures
whereas they conld not shut their eyes to the dangers that den,'
and hourly arose and thickened upon them for an adherence t°
to the present bad system of policy adopted and so unnecessarily"
protracted towards Ireland. The gallery was then cleared 4)t
a division, and cries of " Question, question."
The House then divided. The numbers were—
For the Motion - - 247
Against it . 234
Majority in favour of the- Motion - —I3 .
The announcement of the Majority was receiVed,wieh loud
cheers.

On our return to the gallery we found the House in Cow'
mittee.—The followin Resolutions were read and agreed W 9
and the Bill ordered tote brought in.

" 1. That it appears to this Committee, that by ecrtain,Acte;
passed in the Parliaments of Great Britain and Ireland sespg"
tively, certain Declarations and Affinnatips are required to bit

i