The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-22 00:00:00

FIRING AT THE QUEEN.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—Mr. Speaker, be-
fore I move the postponement of the orders of the
day which stand for to-night, I think it is
right that I should make a statement, in order to allay
any apprehension that may exist in consequence of
some of the newspapers of Saturday evening, in re-
porting the attempt made upon the life of her Majesty,
stating that the pistol fired off was loaded with
ball. I can state, although it is unfortunately true
that a pistol was discharged at the Queen as she was
returning home along Constitution-hill, yet that there is
no reason to acquiesce in the belief that the person who
discharged the pistol—who made this treasonable at-
tempt, which is more remarkable for its baseness than
for its atrocity—(Loud cheers)—had loaded the
deadly instrument with ball.—(Cheers.) I am sure
if the attempt had been of a different kind,
that I should have had the cordial assent of the House
to an address to her Majesty, congratulating her Ma-
jesty upon having, under the care of Providence, escaped
from death—(Cheers)—and on the preservation of so
valuable a life.—(Loud cheers.) Her Majesty on this
occasion acted with her usual coolness and courage.—
(Continued cheering.) He begged to move that the
Poor-law Relief Bill be postponed for a fortnight.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to state, as an Irish
Member, as it might be considered that the fact
of the person who had fired ' at the Queen
being one of his countrymen aggravated his
offence, that at the moment of the greatest excite-
ment in Ireland among the fiercest and boldest, that not
one would have harboured the idea of personally insult-
ing her Majesty.—(Loud cheers,) Whatever misfor-
tunes might have befallen Ireland, it could not be for a
moment believed that any portion of the Irish people
sympathised with the recent act of a dastardly miscre-
ant.—(Cheers.) The motion was agreed to.
On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners' Bill was postponed until the
Bth of June.
PUBLIC HEATH BILL.
In reply to Sir WILLIAM CLAY,

Sir GE-ORGE GREY &Aid it was not the intention of
the Government to intoduce a Public Health Bill this
session. Only recently a Bill had been passed for
the consolidation of the sewers, and for promoting im-
proved drainage. The report of the Sanitary Commis-
sion was nut yet ready.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Mr. G. BERKELEY, pursuant to notice, wished to
ask the Noble Lotd at the head of the Government
whether he had in contemplation any measure for
the relief under which the agricultural interest
was labouring, and whether he was prepared to reduce
the income-tax charged under schedule B?

Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had no measure in
contemplation on the subject first referred to by the
Hon. Member, and that it was not his intention to re-
duce the income-tax.

THE KAFIR WAR.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in
answer to a question from Mr. V. Smith, said.
that the accounts furnished to the Board
of Audit of the expenses of the Kafir
war being unsatisfactory to that board, he should
wait till further information was received from the Cape
before taking any further step in the matter.

DEATHS,RITE
LLA,
in
nD answer
t 0 a MARRIAGES.question
Lord
Lt.
from Mr. Sadleir, stated that he could not fix any time for
the Government instituting any measures on the subject
of births, deaths, and marriages.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Incum-
bered Estates (Ireland) Bill.
On the Ist clause being proposed,
Mr. J. STUART said he had already taken an op-
portunity of stating his impression of the importance of
this measure and his objection to the principle upon
which it was founded, but no answer whatever
had been given to those objections by any
one Member of the Government. Most of the
Irish Members, it was true, had expressed their
approbation of the Bill, but he was not surprised at that
when he remembered that they expressed similar appro-
bation last year of a measure which had since turned
out a total failure.—(Hear, hear.) This Bill, iu
fact, was constructed on a principle which was
far more objectionable than that of the Bill of
last year. It contained provisions which it was the duty
of every English Member to attend well to. It proposed
to create a set of Commissioners, who were to be paid
out of the English Exchequer; and he objected to every
clause which related to this Commission, the more so, as
the duties imposed on it ought now to be
exercised by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
These Commissioners were not to be paid by the land-
owners or mortgagees of Ireland, but by the tax-payers
to the Engliel Exchequer; and if these Commissioners
could perform one of the Lord Chancellor's duties
they could not see why they should not under-
take the whole of them.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He quite understood the reasons which induced the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland to approve of the principle
of the Bill. It was the duty of the Court of Chancery
in Ireland to appoint receivers, and to regulate all the
ineumbered property in that country, and to keep it in
a legal state for disposal. He could well, therefore,
understand the reason why his Honourable and Learned
Friend had cited the approval of that learned and
eminent personage's opinion—for in tact the Bill was
intended to relieve the Court of the duty, whilst it re-
tained the emolument for the service. This was the
principle on which the Bill had been raised. If it was at
all necessary to obtain legislative interference at all tor
such a purpose as that for which the Bill was !intended
to provide, the first point that ought to have been looked
to was to provide the foundation of a good title. Had it
been advisable, he should have felt it his duty to use every
available means which the rules of the House gave him
to oppose the clauses seriatim as they were put from the
chair; but seeing the friendly spirit in which the Bill
was received by the Irish Members, he did not conceive
himself justified in wasting the time of Hon. Members
by dividing, but he intended on the third reading to give
his most strenuous opposition, and to state his reasons
for doing so. Clauses one to eight defined the duties of
the Commissioners, and those on to clause fifteen devised
the means for enabling the Commissioners to fulfil
those duties. Every one of these clauses was faulty,
and unless the Government took the opportunity of
greatly amending them, he should at a future step
earnestly oppose their adoption. He thought it was not
right that they should he called upon to pay out of the
English Exchequer three new 'unctionaries—thus giving
additional patronage to the Government, and appointing
persons for the performance of duties which ought to
be discharged by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
Colonel RAWDON said he had not any objection to
the general merits of the Bill. no had received from a
gentleman in Dublin, who was well acquainted with
Chancery practice, a letter which he thought it might be
just to read to the House. The writer
stated that the Incumbered Estates Bill would
be one of the most beneficial measures that could be
devised for Ireland; that it was prepared with clearness.
and that the provisions were so simple that no one could
fail to understand them.
Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR thought that the measure
would have a very beneficial effect in Ireland; but was
of opinion that one or two gentlemen should be ap-
pointed as Commissioners, who were acquainted not only
with the legal, bat the personal management of estates.
It WM incumbent upon the Government, he thought, to

appoint gentlemen to the (-Bee of Corna3issioner who
were possessed of the highest possible legal at-
tainments.

Mr. F. FRENCH repeated that he was opposed to
the Bill, because it would act most unjustly. Under it
many lanis would be sold at but twelve years' purchase,
and the proceeds would be, therefore, insufficient to meet
the claims upon them.
Sir JOHN WALSH was convinced that this Bill,
like 'the one of last year, would prove altogether
nugatory, and considered that the sale of property at its
present depreciated value in Ireland, would be like put-
ting up a house to auction whilst it was in flames. It
would be most difficult to get purchasers. When capi-
talists purchased landed property, they did so expecting a
definite and regular revenue, unlike shopkeepers who
speculated when they purchased prop, rty. Capitalists
did not purchase property from philanthropic motives,
but to profit by what they did. Therefore, capitalists
would not invest their money in the impoverished dis-
tricts of Ireland. He objected to the arbitrary nature of
the Commission to be appointed under the Bill.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the real question was
whether the whole state of Ireland was such as to
demand some extraordinary measures for re-
lieving it. Upon the motion for the second
reading of this Bill, it was admitted that there
were extraordinary cireumstanc,s to justify its intro-
duction, and he thought, therefore, that the Com-
mittee ought at once to proceed with the details
of the Bill. It was quite evident that the
present machinery of the Court of Chancery
was inadequate to facilitate the speedy transfer of in-
cumbered estates, and that fact must be the answer of
the Government to the objection which had been raised
to the measure, that it imposed duties on Commissioners
which ought to devolve upon the Lord Chancellor.
Colonel DUNNE should consider himself unworthy
of being an Irishman if he did not protest against this
arbitrary Bill. If a Bill of this hind was to be passed,
be thought that when property was to be handed
over to Commissioners, the House ought at least to
know who those Commissioners were, and if Hon.
Members would divide with him, he would move that the
consideration of the first clause shou:d be adjourned
until the names of the Commissioners were known.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought it monstrous that three un-
known men should be entrusted with powers scarcely
possessed by the Autocrat of Russia.--(Hear,
hear.) He had said that this Bill was
in blank, and to prove that it was so, he would only
refer to the tenth section, which gave a power to Teter
disputed pointa to the Privy Council in Ireland, but
which stated no rules by which the Council were to be
directed in their decisions.—(Hear, hear.) lie con-
ceived that the Hon. Gentleman opposite was entirely
mistaken in supposing that the Irish Members would
accept this Bill with anything like friendly unanimity.
The Hon. Member was proceeding to comment on certain
clauses, when

The CHAIRMAN suggested that the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member had better take the clauses in their regular
order, and reserve his remarks upon each until it came
duly under consideration.
Colonel DUNNE thought that he had been pursuing
a proper course by stating all his objections to the Bill
at once, intending afterwards to have left the question
in the hands of the House to dell with as they thought
proper. Ho would, however, bow to the Chairman; but
he could not conclude without repeating his protest
against this Bill, which was most unjust to Irish pro-
prietors, and which he believed not one of its supporters
could conscientiously say they would apply to England.
The real difficulty in Ireland was the defective registry
of titles, not in the abstract right of the proprietors, and
for that difficulty this Bill provided no remedy.
Mr. GROGAN said, the question as to the persons
who were to administer this Act was a most important
one. The history of Ireland was curious, but it scarcely
presented anything more extraordinary in its history than
this proposal to dispense with the Court of Chancery,
and to place the property of the country at the disposal
of an unnamed Commission, invested with almost abso-
lute powers. If the circumstances of the country were
so extraordinary as to call for a measure of this kind, it
would certainly be far better that the Commissioners
should ,be named in the Bill. By leaving the cause as
it stood at present, the Commissioners would be only
the nominees of the Government, and he thought that if
the House felt there was such a strong necessity for
this Commission, it shou:d exercise the privilege,of nam-
ing it.—(Hear.) It was feared that the Bill would not
be efficient in one respect. He feared that it would be
too efficient, because the powers given to the Commis-
sioners were of so absolute a character that not a single
owner of property would feel himself, safe against the
application of a single creditor for a sale. On the other
hand, he believed the Bill by itself would be inefficient.
They might compel sales, but they could not secure
purchasers at a fair value at the same time. Under
the circumstances the incumbered proprietor and his
family, and the holder of the mortgage,, would be
equally damaged by their legislation. This Bill as it stn ,d,
unsupported by other measures, would fail to produce
any of the effects anticipated by its framers. The.que,-
don that arose, however, on the first clause was, as he
had said, whether the circumstances of Ireland were so
extraordinary as to warrant such a departure from the
ordinary course, and if so, whether the presiding power
might not be ben, ficially vested with the Lord Chancel-
lor, and if notwhether they ought to know who the
Commissioners were to be?

Sir L. O'BRIEN approved of the Bill in some respects
as being superior to the Bill of last year, but at the same
time concurring in the opinion of Hon. Members, that
they ought to know who the Commissioners were to be.
He should divide on the clause it the Hon. Member
pressed the question to a division. He must say that the
House, in pressing forward these questions. was acting
under some delusion.—(Hear, hear.) Their object was
to get the estates into the hands of those who owed no
money. Why, the persons who purchased were to be
empowered to borrow half the purchase money as a
mortgage upon them, and when they came to make im-
provements fresh loans would be necessary.—(Hear.)
He thought, therefore, that some more time and consi-
deration was required with reference to a measure of
such importance. At the same time ho agreed that in-
creased facilities were required, and within proper and
judicious limits, calculated to encourage the investment
of small capitals in land. He should be prepared to give
any such measures his support.
Col. DUNNE moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress and ask leave to sit again until the Commissioners
were named.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL believed that the people of Ire.
land approved of this all as far as it went, and there•
fore he deprecated any such obstruction to its consider.
ation as that now proposed.

Mr. SADLEIR said the Lord Chancellor and Masters
already possessed disci.« tionary powers to dispose of
property similar to those enacted in this Bill, and there-
fore it was no new power which was to be given to the
Commissioners.

Col. DUNNE said these authorities were bound by
certain legal forms which very much tended to diminish
the chance of these powers being abused.
Mr. HORSMAN hoped that the Hon. Member would
withdraw his motion and allow the Bill to proceed.
After a few words from Col. DUNNE and Sir G.
GREY, the motion was withdrawn and the clause was
agreed to, as were clauses 2,3, 4, and 5.
On clause 6, which fixes the salary of the Chief
Commissioner at 3,000/. a year, and that of the two
other Commissioners at 2,0001. asyear each,
Mr. HENLEY suggested that in order to lighten the
expense of the Commission they might charge fees.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to the sys-
tem of fees. The amounts set down in the clause were
net salaries.
Mr. GROGAN saw that the Commissioners were em-
powered to apoint a secretary, and-such clerks as they
might require. He wished to know whether a valuator
was to be appointed under any of these narnas.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL did not propose to ap-
point any valuator. In the majority of cases such an
officer would not be required. . .

After some further conversation the amounts were
agreed to.
On the question that the clause do pass, a conversation
arose as to the latter portion, which enacted that the
expense of the Commis.iun sh4ll be defrayed as provided
by Parliament.

Mr. HENLEY suEgestcd that the word "directed"
should be substituted for " provided." He did not want
the cost to come out of estimates.
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand
part of the Bill, as were clauses 7,8, and 9.
On clause 10, which subjected the Commissioners'
rules to examination and confirmation by the Privy
Council,
Colonel DUNNE moved that the Court of Chancery,
and not the Privy Council, should be judges of the rules.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected. If the Court
of Chancery were named, the proceedings would be de-
layed and clogged with difficulties.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the Hon. and Gallant
Gentleman's objection, though apparently to one of the
details of the Bill, was in reality against the principle,
and he should give it his opposition.
Mr. SADLEIR, in reply to a question from Colonel
Dunne, admitted that no land would he sold in Ireland,
except under the provisions of this Bill; and so deeply
was he impressed with this conviction, that be intended
urging on Government the propriety of extending the
Bill to estates not incumbered.
Mr. TURNER thought power of appeal against the
sales should be given.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there was no
precedent for such a proposition.
Mr. TURNER reminded the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman that such a power was given in the West Indian
Compensation Act.
Colonel DUNNE withdrew his amendment, and the
clause passed.
Clauses 11, 12, and 13 were agreed to without dis-
cussion.

Clause 14, which enacts that the orders of the Com-
missioners may be enforced in England, led to a brief
explanation by the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, and
passed.
On clause 15, which arms the Commissioners with the
jurisdiction of a Court of Equity, the SOLICITOR-
GENERAL, in reply to Mr. Martin, stated that the
Commissioners would have the power of deciding in
cases of disputed title. The clause was then passed.
Clause 16, which enacts, that when land, or lease of
land in Ireland, is subject to incumbrance, the owner, or
incumbrancer may apply to the Commissioners for a
sale. caused slight discussion.
Mr. SADLEIR thought that the owners of unencum-
bered estates ought to be permitted to avail themselves
of the machinery of the Bill, just as well as the inhe-
ritors of incumbered estates.
The SOLICI FOR-GENERAL feared that, consis-
tently with the principle of the Bill, it would be impos-
sible to adopt the Hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
Mr. GROGAN suggested, that int.tead of all incum-
brances as stated in the clause, the words " exl.ting
incumbrancer" should be substituted, as that would do
away with the possibility of pates creating incum•

te

irances in order to get their properties sold under
Act.
Mr. MARTIN considered a clause ought to 10
inserted preventing parties not fully incumbered from,
going to the Commissioners in order to get their estate
sold.
Tile clause was then passed, as ware also clauses 17
and 18.
On clause 19 being proposed, which provides that leer
Commissioners upon application for sale may, IfEe
Hullers and hearing, direct a sale,
Mr. TURNER moved that a proviso be added to the
clause, to the effect, that no such order for sale should°
made unless the ineumbrance upon the propego
amounted to two-thirds of the value thereof, ma! 81f
that no such order should be made on the applicatil,°t
a party whose interest in the estate did not exceed 1"11
of
The S the highest incumbrance. h
OLICITOR-GENARAL objected to SUC-ke
proviso. Were such added , before a sale could.lll,
place they would have to ascertain the value of the pri;
perty, and in the existing state of Irish landed proper
that would be almost impossible. rrhere
Mr. MARTIN supported the amendment. of
could be no difficulty in getting at the valuatlo,°,-
the estates, as the ordnance valuation could be bad
course to. If
,dreen.,

Colonel DUNNE also supported the ament. tbe
the ordnance valuation was not considered coniPlete,',itig
poor law valuation was, and hence no difficulty is ge""
at the valuation. but be
Mr. TURNER was in the hands of the House, re
thought the additional proviso he had proposed 066"
quire(' to make the measure effectual.
Sir L. O'BRIEN hoped that his 'lon. and Lein'
Friend would not press the first part of the proviso, ~n 4
that her Majesty's Ministers would allow the see"
part to be inserted without any divi,ion.
Mr. TURNER said he had no objcction to the sOtil
geetion of the Hon. Baronet, and that all parties 10,1 be
be satisfied, he would alter the words " two- thirds 014 i.
value thi reof to one-half'," which alteration, he Cr
dered, could not be opposed by the Solicitor-Genere,"o,
After a few words from Colonel DUNNE, the ye
mittee divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso' 9
Against it
57
Majority..

Clause 19 was then agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 34, inclusive, were then agreed to.
Ciause 37 was then agreed to. tlO/
On clsuse 38 being proposed, which provided 0.
order for a sale under this Act may be made, nOtti
standing pending suit or decree for sale,
Mr. MONSELL suggested that the Commiss'°,..ol
should have the power to take the initiative in the

of bankrupt estates before the Court of Chancery. ,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the object 0' „f
Bill was to sell incumbered estates on the applicafilieti
the parties. The Hon. Member (Mr. Monsell) w,19.00
to make an exception, but he (the Solicitor- Genersio,
of opinion that in the class of estates to which the , 011
Member had alluded, applications for sale would 'n
likelihood be among the first made.
tt4o
After a few words from Mr. SADLEIR, COL..- n-o
and Mr. TURNER, the clause was agreed to.
Oa clause 39 being read, ,to
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he was wil°,4s 0
accede to the suggestion of an Hon. Member to 11",ery
few words to the clause, enabling the Court of Chal3";risd
to appoint a receiver to an estate during the Pe-
pending the sale. for
Mr. SADLEIR hoped the Hon. and Learned Soliclo
General would reconsider his preposition, as he ki
Sadleir) thought that nothing was more detritneo:o
property than the appointment of a court receiver oh
was invested with power to manage an estate. 00
therefore, hoped that the control and management °
estate would he placed in the Commissioners. ,tio4
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, thought the orbt;
of the Hon. Memb, r (Mr. Sadleir) had some we': 01
and he would, therefore, leave it to him to propto
addition to the clause on the bringing up of the rer
The clause was then agreed to.
On clau--e 40 being read,
,stfof
Mr. M 0 NSE L L suggested that there should be $ 1„0 0
given for the partitioning of unincumbered as we
incumbered estates. het
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was of opinion t-
give a general power to partition would be stepPillsoo
yond the bounds and objects of the Bill, which
limited to incumbered estates.

The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 41, 42, and 43 were next agreed to.
On clause 44 being proposed, plO
Colonel DUNNE objected to-the clause, on thee"( ;be
that -no appeal was, allowed without the consent e*
Commissioners. if
e1)16
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said it was cliestiiilte:
that all pretences for delay should be avoided, sour veil'
fore it was that the Commissioners were investe"
summary power. h b
Mr. MARTIN said a case might arise in W-ic of
Commissioners might decide upon the rights
party in his absence, and which decision mig,.1,,f01l
highly prejudicial to his interests. It was, the- oold
desirable that in such a case the power to a
ah
be absoluteß. fed
lifr. TUNER said the clause was contrary to e
principle of law, and particularly of the West 9130
Compensation Act; and the effect of the entire 1,0
would be that estates would be bought up by joint-s;er
companies. In his opinion an appeal ought to be Po;
mitted, as in the West India Compensation Act, Willi
the consent of the Commissioners. ppeal

The SOLICITOR GENERAL replied that 111:00
Act alluded to not a single appeal was made fl°l'
Commissioners did not at once accede to.
ptrr
Mr. R. WOOD said they were providing
ordinary rernee'y for an extraordinary evil, and t to
lay of one or two or more years occurred, it wotol'Apip
vent the practical intention of the Bill being carrie
eff.ct by vexatious appeals.
The clause was then agreed to, as were the refl3
clauses, and the House resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the rer,
was ordered to be brought up on Thursday. so°
A messenger from the Lords brought up the rep
of several Bills, which were agreed to.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL
c",,g ,d
On the motion of Sir G. GREY, the third reaOg
the Parliamentary Oaths Bill was fixed for Mona*
11th of June.
LANDLORD AND TENANT BILL. ,001,
On the consideration of the Landlord and Tentl°'
as amended,
Colonel SIBTHORP moved that the Bill be ri
for six months.
The motion was, however, withdrawn.
Mr. MULLINGS moved the following ansenawde
—" After section 7 to insert the following e.-°,llO-,
and with a view of preventing or lessening theyol •
the right to emblements, as well as the loss an;(1
to tenants holding under landlords having lino1"0001
terests, be it enacted, that where the lease or ce:4
of a farm held by a tenant at rack rent, shall deterteidi
the death or censer of the estate of any nilld ion
entitled for his life, or for any other limited 01
terest, the tenant shall continue to hold 513„00°.,
cupy the farm until the expiration of the then roe',
year, and shall then quit upon the terms of hi' 'enotP
holding, in the same manner as if such lease or te-othie,:
were then determined by the effluxion of time °Ala°,
lawful means, during the continuance of his le°"detlAr
estate, and the succeeding landlord shall be en°„"et
recover and receive of the tenant in the same men'op.o4'd
his predecessor could have done if living, a fair Pro •
Lion of the rent for the period which may have of
from the day of the death or testier of the estate °
predecessor to the time of the tenant so quitting, tli,ll,d
succeeding landlord and the tenant respectively s"„ 011
between themselves and as against each other, be el
to all the benefits and advantages, and be subject
oetb
restrictions to which the prceding landlord any'
tenant respectively would have been entitled and 8°
in case the lease or tenancy had determined in °I A 4
aforesaid, at the expiration of such current year' of Irm
be it enacted, that in case the growing crops eb
tenant of any farm shall be seized and sold by o°,/isej
riff or other officer, by virtue of any writ of fier, '4'
or other writ of execution, such crops shall, 80 it II1)
the same shall remain upon the farm, be liable ,;11,.‘
rent which may accrue and bi come due to the 1°;:e0
after any such seizure and sale, and to the reme°l4
distress and otherwise for recovery of such 0°
that notwithstanding any bargain and sale orate
ment which may have been made or executed ° ,
crops by any such sheriff or other officer. a
Mr. PUSEY said he must leave this propose 000 •
to the consideration of the legal Members of the id telt
Mr. HENLEY said he thought the clause ve°ll.oolBl
great improvement, and it might be very legtl
comprised in a Bill of this sort.
re/
The amendment was then agreed to. I/0
The Bill was then agreed to as amended, and
to be reed a third time on Thursday.
nte
THE CHARITABLE TRUSTS BIT-4.-fge'y
This Bill was read a second time, and, after
servations from Captain PECHELL, was orderee
reported on Friday next.
' PASSENGERS BILL. .0 00 Pep
The Passengers Bill went through Comm
forma, and the report was ordered to be trough 011
Thursday next.

The other orders of the day were then dieP
and the House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 21. Fr
WToohlesaeLkort
al) CHANCELLOR took his seat 001)
t Five o'elnck
Lord REDESDALE. 1 I
poo)
against the repeal of the navigation-laws. ~te° o'
presented severs I 1,/,
Petitions with a similar prayer were presen" 010
the Earl of Eglinton, the Earl of Warwick, the .1"-
AI
Richmond. and Elrl' Talbot.
Lord LYTTELTON presented several Pe°
praying for the abolition of the law of settlement'
ATTACK ON THE QUEEN. „ boPi,
The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE hoped that
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE hoped
hiC' tbe'f,
they proceeded to consider a subject on ivhie—be 1)10
would be much difference of opinion, he might id be ;4
mitted to advert to a subject on which there 00' vie'.
difference of opinion.—(Hear, hear.) Ther: ostildo
offences of a character most atrocious and st t'to, 0;,.
time most contemptible. All that he could, et,' IV
that there were discovered on inquiry °OO Of
circumstances attending the hatetul st.t,ets, 0
Saturday nothing to justify a cot:011°0o oi
high treason. Had such been the, tf t° 03
would have been their duty to address her DilsJe9.aal laic°
press their abhorrence of the crime. The coo3°3lde 0
been for a misdemeanour, and therefore he illi_ beit4e
propose no address, and he thought it would 70409
le.sve this contemptible criminal to take the eeeof gib
of his crime, without giving to him the notorietY ,
rLi
he WAS perhaps ambitious. deter`V
Lord Sr A NLEY was rejoiced to hear the ible te,
tion of the Government to leave the contectiPt._4 00,
tO PI 06
creant who had perpetrated the outrage i.O IV
Had her Majesty been in danger/ not opiy sP

B

il

but the whole country would have congratulated het
on her escape, and they might congratull-te hes
Majesty on the fact that when it was supposed that she
had been in danger it called forth an universal expres
filen of desire for vengeance. He thought it was wel
to leave this wretched miscreant to the disgraceful anc
degrading- punishment he so well merited.---t Cheers.)
Lord KENYON thought there ought to be somo re•
cord on the journals either by a resolution or an address
of the occurrence of this circumstance.
Lord BROUGHAM hoped this would go no further,
The offender had yet to go to trial, and in the last resort
their Lordships might have to decide on his guilt or
innocence; therefore he felt rejoiced that they were not
called upon to express any opinion as to the attempt
which bad been made, and which could only excite eon.
tempt and disgust.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that had he
Proposed an address it would have related merely to the
nature of the offence, and not to the person committing
it. But he thought it much better that no further notice
should be taken of an attempt which was as contemptible
LS it was atrocious.

The subject was then dropped.
The Earl of FITZHARDINGE presented a pnitini
in favour of the repeal of the navigation lavrs. Ho dii
not concur in its prayer.
The Earl of lIARROWBY presented a petition wit]
a similar prayer.

ROME.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he bad received thi
Most solemn assurances from M. Manzoni, that ho hac
toyer brought away any or the articles from the public
museums in Rome, nor did he believe that any other
person had done so.

sIMPROVEMENT OF LAND (IIIELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the second
reading of this Bill.—Agreed to.
The NOBLE MARQUIS then moved a suspension of the
standing orders.—Agreed to.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
NAVIGATION LAWS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petitions in favour of a repeal of the navigation-laws.
The Noble Marquis, in moving the order of the day for
the House going into Committee on the Bill for the re•
peal of the navigation-laws; said that he had received a
communication from the Noble Earl who usually
took the chair of their Committees, stating
that he should, through illness, be unable to
attend their Lordships' House. He should therefore
move that Lord Beaumont take the chair.—Agreed to.
Their Lordships then resolved themselves into Com-
mittee on the Bill for the repeal of the Navigation. laws,
Lord Beaumont in the chair.
Lord STANLEY then rose to move the amendments
of which he had given notice, viz.,-To move, after
the word " that" in page 1, lice 6, to insert "in
case it shall be made to appear to her
anaiesta, that any foreign country is willing to con-
cede the ships of this country the like privileges and
advantages as are enjoyed by or intended to
be conferred on the ships of such foreign country, or
advantages equivalent thereto, then and in such case it
shall be lawful for her Majesty, from time to time, by
any order or orders in Council, to be published and re-
vocable as hereinafter mentioned, to authorise and declare
as follows, that is to say, it shall be lawful for her Maje•ity
to authorise and declare that the several sorts of goods,
being the produce of Europe, and enumerated in an Act
made and passed in the session of Parliament holden in the
eighth and ninth years of the reign of her Majesty,
intituled An Act for the Encouragement of British
Shipping and Navigation,' or any of them, may, from
and after a day to be named in such order as afore-
said, be imported from any port or place into the
United Kingdom, to be used therein, in the ships of such
foreign country, anything in the said Act to the contrary
notwithstanding; provided always, that before such order
or orders shall be issued, such foreign country shall
have either conceded or agreed to concede to the ships
of this country the like privileges and advantages as
are enjoyed by, or intended to be conferred upon, the
ships of such foreign country, with reference to the
importation of such goods as aforesaid, into any
parts of its own dominion, in such manner as
that no British ship shall be either directly or
indirectly subject, in such foreign country, to any
duties or charges of any sort or kind whatsoever, with
reference to the importation of such goods as atoresaio,
from which the ships of such foreign country arse or
shall be exempt, or shall have conceded or agreed to
concede to the ships of this country other privileges and
advantages equivalent thereto. Section 2. And be it en-
acted, that it shall be lawful for her Majesty from time to
time, by any order or orders in Council to be published
and revocable as hereinafter mentioned, to authorise and
declare that goods being the produce of Asia, Africa,
and America, other than the several goods hereinafter
enumerated, may be imported from any port or place
in Europe, Asia, Africa, or America, into the United
Kingdom, to be used therein, in British ships, or
in ships of the countries of which the goods are
the produce, or in ships of the countries for
which the goods are imported, anything in the said Act
for the encouragement of British shipping and naviga-
gation to the contrary notwithstanding : provided al-
ways, that before any such order or orders shall be issued,
having reference to any foreign country, it shall be made
to appearto her Majesty that such country bath eithercon-
ceded or agreed to concede to the ships of this country the
like privileges and advantages as are enjoyed by or ii tended
to be conferred on the ships of such country with reference
to the importation of such goods as aforesaid into an y part
of its own dominions, so and in such manner as that no
British ships shall he either directly or indirectly subject
in sach country to any duties or charges of any sort or
kind whatsoever with reference to the importation of such
goods as aforesaid for which the ships of such country are
or shall be exempt; provided also that nothing herein
contained shall authorise her Majesty to permit by such
order or orders the importation or admission into the
United Kingdom, to be used therein, of any of the goods
hereinafter mentioned, being the produce of Asia, Atrica,
and America; that is to say. except so far as any of
such goods may now be legally imported under the pro-
visions of the said Act, intituled An Act for the
Encouragement of British Shipping and Naviga-
tion." To omit the repealing provisions of Section
11. To insert after clause 6—" And where-
as it is expedient that her Majesty should
be empowered to make regulations for the trade and
navigation of Canada, such as the geographical position
and peculiar exigencies of that colony may require ;
be it enacted, that it shall be lawful for her Ma
jesty to enter into engagements with the United
States of America, whereby the ships of the said
United States may be enabled to import goods, the
produce of the said United States or of Canada
into the United Kingdom from any port or place
on the river St. Lawrence, notwithstanding any pro-
visions to the contrary contained in the Act of Bth
and 9th Victoria, cap. 88, intituled An Act for the
Rneouragereent f British Shipping and Navigation ;'
provided always, that the privileges and facilities of
navigation and of trade, whether by sea or land, which
her Majesty may deem to be equivalent to such con-
cession, may be secured to the subjects of her
Majesty in their trade with the United States of Ame-
rica; and it shall be lawful for her Majesty to declare,
by order in Council, that such engagements, on the foot-
ing of reciprocal advantage, have been entered into with
the said United States, and thereupon to make regula-
tions for the trade between Canada and tue United
Kingdom accordingly, for such time and subject to
such conditions for the termination thereof as shall be
therein specified." His amendments were consonant with
the principle of the Government measure, and only dif-
fered from that measure in some degree. He was willing
to agree in the removal of the restrictions on our com-
merce imposed by the navigation-laws, but he thought
the Government were going too far consistently with
safety to the British shipowner, in removing all the re•
atrictions at present imposed on the foreigner, especially
with regard to our home and colonial trade. Mr. Hus•
kisson, in his proposed regulation of those laws, had ab-
stained from throwing open those branches of our trade
to
those who from superior cheapness of bailding and
sailing would thus be enabled to meet us in every port
and monopolise the whole commerce of the world, and
build on our ruin a great preponderating naval power.
Be warned them that by assenting to the measure as it
now stood they were running a great hazard. In that
opinion he was supported by all the leading naval and
commercial men—all the shipowners and others con-
nected with shipping throughout the country, who all
agreed in condemning the dangerous measure they were
introducing, and entreating them not to incur that great
hazard. Her Majesty's Government were acting against
the sense of the country, and they knew it.—(Loud
cheers.) At all events, if they despised that warning
and those opinions—if they were strongly convinced that
the measure was a necessary one—then, as a prudent
Government, they ought not to proceed with undue
rashness, giving HO opportunity for repentance until too
late, but ought to prepare the country, step by step, for
such a hazardous experiment. He would beset ch of them,
as they valued the possession of the carrying trade to the
colonies, and to those countries where their supremacy
was undoubted, not to be acting against the le, ling of
the country. For, though he did not deny the respeeta •
bility of the names attached to the petition presented by
the Noble Marquis from Liverpool, he must take the
liberty of informing him, that thre petition lay for
Some time in the Exchange of Liverpool, where it
acquired the signatures of only 143 members. Now,
the petition which he (Lord Stanley) had had the honour
tof present, was signed by as many as 47,000 persons,
w,tkona 1,470 were members of the Liverpool Stock
Tranoabne, which contained 2,000 members in all.
shousdiee.of the motion which, on this occasion, he
c(HiPelear,a hie; Aar
atrU.e)rde to submit, submit, was not to dispute the prito
venture their Lordships the other night.
shouldbe, whether Therefore, the first question to which he
cording to thteheto draw their Lordships' attention would
yoWould proceed in the first instance ae-
posed to them b
was about to suggest, or accord-
iwnhgettoher that
th
of
e
the chance PYr wouldde
h a ythe Noble Marti Marquis—
whether
once repeal those laws and take
rat they ;
m.get afterwardstore:-enahct,. or
whether, ade
them, they
tn er h Crown toagyrareitt°trie)
Pwohutith:principletsehe had
on a fo_ !Posed to make
foreign Powers di
vile es
th reciprocict
concessions such pri-
stste of
be inconsistent °tang of .
It Was true that her Mee
Government 3a as it would now
Bill to improve the mtvigest37lBl the law to provide.
of the d this
a
try, and that the first steatifu and shipping
repeal the Act of the Btile
nourd that Purpose would nt
to proposed to confine himself 9th Victoria, C. 88 ; but
limits of the title of the Bill. 4etrictly within the true
law, to impose restriction, Proposed to amend the
to repeal it altogether. The No.bleaAteA e slid not propose
him with withholding too long notietrquis !sad ch ,r4ed
his amendments. He did not think ilia; 't'lf eature of
a just one ; for if her Majesty'; Governs'at
"7
was
two whole years to consider what shoui tit
ha
taken
Acts they ousht to propose •; if, be the specific
many
foreign
vowels,
they
at
hr conference with
length earn, d
Parliament with a measure much aaeled f ""
to
last from that of
year, and if at the last moment h
tit • it , wit out notice
ey Wand necessary towithd
raw a larr portion of'

the concessions they now proposed to make, and
to except from the Bill the whole of the coast-
ing tradt! ; if, after all that, the Government found
that it was a question in detail, it could hardly be
charged against him that, taking certain amendments
in detail, he had occupied a apace of eight days in -cis-
cuFsing the question with practical men, as to what these
amendments should be. Their Lordships were aware that
the navigation-laws of this country made a distinction
between articles the produce of Europe and those which
were the produce of the other three quarters of the world.
He proposed still to adhere to that distinction, but to
make such modification in the existing law as should he
beneficial to the country in cases where it did not admit
of a useful operation. The reason of the distinction was
plain, it having been the object of legislation to secure,
nut only the communication from British port to British
port, but also to obtain for this country the great ad-
vantage of bringing in British vessels those bulky
articles which employed a large quantity of shipping.
The law relating to the importation of goods from
European ports was less stringent than that applying
to the other three quarters of the globe, but as
he proposed to relax the one, so also ho proposed
to relax the other. No goods the produce of Eu
rope could be imported into this country from a European
port, except either in British ships, or the ships of the
country from which they were directly imported. The
amendment he proposed to introduce with regard to
goods the produce of Europe was one of considerable
importance, as its effect would be to open largely the
trade with European countries. He thought it wiser, as
well as more statesmanlike, to allow the Government to
enter into reciprocal treaties, provided it first obtained
from those countries with which it had such relations, a

sufficient provision for the interests of the shipping of
this country, and by an order in council to grant to suer
countries as might be disposed to concede ecirevalects,
the right of carrying on that indirect trade from which
they had been debarred. In proposing that system,
he laid stress upon the fact that the order in council
was to be irrevocable. Then, with regard to the
trade with Asia, Africa, and America, he thought it
necessary, as he had already stated, that the
laws should not be repealed which secured to
them the most valuable advantage they possessed,
the conveyance of the bulky articles of commerce in thy
long voyage. By the law, as it stood, no goods could
be imported from Asia, Africa, and America, except in
British ships, or the ships of the country in which they
were produced, or from whence they were imported.
Therefore. as the great hulk of the countries iu Asia,
Africa, and America had no shipping of their own, the
practical effect of that navigation law was to vest in then
hands the trade of those countries, almost as exclusively
as that of their colonies. Her Majesty's Government
were about to surrender the whole of it, and to leave the
English shipowner to the competition of foreign rivals.
Was he in a conditionao contend with them ? Let them
take the United States, and consider how matters would
stand when the Government proposition was adopted, of
inviting those countries to free competition with them
in Asia, Africa, and America, and their colonies, form
ing three quarters of the globe, in which their shipping
had a practical monopoly. It was also, he should state,
a portion of the present law, that no ship, not even
a British ship, could import the produce of Asia,
Africa, or America, from any port in Europe. The effect
of this was to maintain a direct trade from the places of
production to the places of consumption, and to obtain
the establishment of the great warehousing system. But
he freely admitted that that principle, sound as it was,
might be pushed too tar. What he suggested was, to
maintain the princip.e of the law, and yet to admit of
exceptions applying to Asia, Africa, and America, as to
Europe, to be included in an enumeration of articles.
Those modifications were founded on principles of main-
taining that which was important to navigation, and of
doing away with what might sometimes prove an incon-
venience to trade. As they were about to surrender this
indirect trade, he would call their attention to an im
portant paper, presented that morning to Parliament.
which showed that in the year 1848 the tonnage
which entered the port of Liverpool amounted
to 1,320,000 tons, of which 800,000 alone were English
vessels. If, therefore, protection were withdrawn, %hat
return from toreign countries could they expect, wheo
it appeared from the return and from otherS, that those
countries had nothing whatever to give?—(Hear.) "1 he
United States, it also appeared truer' the returns, were
rivals whom, if they entered into direct competition
equal terms, they might expect to see acquire a larg.
portion or the trade of the kingdom. To those formide
able rivals it was that they were ,about to throw open
the trade of the world, alai that at a time when no de-
mand was made upon them, when no reason was 'given'
to them, nor any necessity shewn.—(Hear, hear.) At
all events they ought to proceed with caution, and to
proceed, at first at least, on principles of reciprocity. A,
America had been permitted to get the better of them in
the direct trade, so also she would obtain a decided sups.
riority in the indirect, were this measure enacted. IJ
would not now enter more extensively into the discussion
of those resolutions which, in a later stage of the Bill, h
should feel it his duty to propose, but he thought it right to
say, in summing up the views which he entertained upon
this question, he proposed to maintain the great prin.
ciples of the navigation-laws—the exche-ive- maintenance
of their colonial trade—to maintain, a; tar as possible.,
the advantages of the long-voyage trade and the corn-,
munieation %ilia those countries possessing no shippine
of their own.—(Hear, hear.) He proposed to maintain
the fundamintrd principle of the navigation laws, but h,
also proposed iu some cases absolutely, and in others
permissively, her Majesty, in Council, sh ,uld permit re•
laxations to be made in favour of countries willing to
outer into reciprocal engagements with themselves for
the sake of their mutual advantage. Ho protested
against their enforcing principles of retaliation against
countries which were not disposed to make conces•
sions, which they would, moreover, find difficult
in practise. Surely the betty r practice would be to
say that the navigation-laws had laid down certain re-
strictions but that Parliament had enabled them to relax.
Ile need hardly argue that they were discussing the
policy and the justice of securing advantages to their
own shipping interests in the results of the change
which they were contemplating. Some, as he had
heard, contended that his course of proceeding was not
magnanimous; but nations had no business to be mag-
nanimous. They were to be prudent, and to decide a
commercial question on commercial principles. They
were to decide whether they would repeal first and re-
enact afterwards, or whether they would maintain the
general principle of the navigation-laws, and authorise
her Majesty to dispense with them. in certaiu cases in
favour of those countries which might be willing to enter
into engagements of reciprocal advantages. That was
the question which was now before them, and which
would Cully arise upon the amendment he proposed.
Earl GREY was at a loss to say whether it was from
stupidity or otherwise, but he was unable to understand
the amendment of the Noble Lord. He supposed that
the words to be inserted were intended as a sub-
stitute for the repealing provisions of the preceding
clause. The Noble Lord had said that his object was
not to repeal, hut to make certain modifications in the
navigation-laws. But the words introduced by' the
Noble Lord would not make sense, unless they omitted
the words by which the existing law was repealed. He
was desirous to know from the Noble Lord whether he
meant, in the event of his amendment being adopted, to
allow the remainder of the clause to contiutue in the Bill,
and the existing amendments to be repealed, and how
he would fill up the blank that would result ?
Lord STANLEY explained that it was hiS intention
to omit the repealing clauses in the second section.
Earl GREY—But the Noble Lord would see that
there were none in the second section.

Lord STANLEY—It was in the first, then. The
House would then c insider those clauses which he had
laid upon the table, and when they came to the repealing
clauses he would object, upon principle, to the repeal ot
those Acts; and he would, in the first instance, take the
sense of their Lordship.' House upon the question ot
amendment in so wide a shape that it would not bind any
person to a particular mode; but when they came to
those clauses he would fairly lay upon the table a list of
the enumerated articles, and each one of them might, if
their Lordships thought fit, be made the subject of dis
cussion.—(bear, hear, from Earl Grey.) But he did
not intend that those clauses should be laid upon the
table before their Lordships came to a decision ou the
principle.

- Earl GREY e ished distinctly to know from the Noble
Lord whether, in that list of enumeratede articles, tea,
coffee; would b
sugar, tobacco, and cotton,included'?
Lord STAN LEY—Every one of them.
Earl GREY—That is most satisfactory.—(Hear, t ry.— (Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord had told them on Friday even-
ing last, that it was his intention en going into Com
teittee on this Bill, to propose such an alteration in it as
would go to its root.—(Heam, hear.) The Noble Lord
now tyrl them thit the question was nut one of prin.
ciple, but 01 degree; but he (Earl Grey) would say that
the question was one of principle, and of principle
only.
The introduction of the words of the Noble Lord would
not make sense. According to all Parliameutary usage,
%%hen words were to beintroduced, it was eu,t )mary to
move the omission of certain words for the purpose of
inserting those words. The Noble Lord had alluded to
their carrying trade icorn,i but the Noble Lord would
be Called upon to explain coral could only be im-
phrted in a British ship, and why, when ground into
flour, it might be imported in The Noble
'Lord' should explain those anomalies. ship. The
Lord
would dispense with the principle of. the
did
linin certain
enumerated articles. He (Lord Grey) think
that the present was quite the time or discusesin
whole of this great question, or of entering veryg mthi•
nutely into a consideration of the question of " recipro-
city." With regard to British ships, the fact was that
they did not possess any monopoly whatever, and if they
wanted to bring corn from Dauzic, it was a Prussian ship
they had most to fear from. Either it was desirable to
open that trade or not; and if it was desirable, then they
ought at once to remove all restrictions in the ray of at
—they should remove those restrictions which fettered
the trade of their merchants. The Noble Lord had d 7
luded to their indirect trade and warehousing system,
but the Noble Lord should take care that by main-
taining our restrictions he did not jeopardy our
interests in those branches of our trade. He
should take care that by maintaining our re-
strictions we should not provoke Russia, the Hanse
Towns, and other countries, to retaliate against us;
for should they, then would our great carrying trade be
endangered, and this great country and the 'whole civi-
lized world would be the losers. The Noble Lord
should not forget the fable of " The Dog and the Sha-
dow ;" and he should recollect that the dog, in trying to
grasp at an itnagiasry substance, lost the actual sub-
stance he was in possessiuu of. The Noble Lord should
take care that the course which he would impel this
country upon would not lead to a similar result. The
Noble Lord had also alluded to the trade of the British
merchants with America, but he (Earl Grey) would
show by a return which he held in his hand That the ad-
vatitag ,s were all against us in our trade with the
United States, by the maintenance of our restrictions.
Looking at these fact, he would say that if the English
were placed on the same footing as the Americans, we

should be able to compete with theere successfully. He now
came ..to the quetinn of the celvnies, and, first, with re-
spect to Canada. There was no doubt (iit Ida hail strong
claims upon our sympathy, but what would be the effect
of the Noble Lord's amendment ? Why, to give pro-
tection to America, to the prejudice of European coon-
tries with whom we were on friendly terms, and all this
was done to favour the trade of the River St. Lawrence.
But the only way to do this truly was by throwing open
the trade of the River St. Lawrence, and getting rid of
all the restrictions which existed on the trade of that
part of the world. They ought to do all in their power
to assist the colonies, the produce of which had now to
compete with the productions of other countries under
great disadvantages. The only way to do this effec-
tively was by getting rid of the navigation laws. The
Noble Earl then proceeded to contend that the Reci-
procity Act did not produce any good to this country,
while it tended materially to injure our colonies, as was
proved by the benefit which Martinique obtained by
French and Spanish ships being obliged, under existing
circumstances, to trade there instead of going in
the first instance direct to Trinidad. No one knew the
injury of restriction until it had been removed.—(Hear.)
This was proved by the article of Indian rubber. Many
years ago this substance was only used by artists, and
for very ordinary purposes by the public. Now, since
the duty on the article has been withdrawn, it was
adapted to a hundred uses with great advantage to the
public.—(Hear.) Ile dissented from the statement of
the Noble Lord, that the feeling of the public was against
the measure. He, on the contrary, believed that the
feeling of the country was in its favour, notwithstanding
the efforts made to get up an artificial excitement against
the measure. He trusted their Lordships would not re-
ecind the vote they had given in favour of the Bill on its
second reading.—(Hear.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that he felt it to be his
duty to oppose the amendment proposed by his Noble
Friend. The Bill proposed to throw open the trade of the
colonies, but the amendments of his Noble Friend
would close up the trade of all the colonies, with the
exception of one. The perplexity of the existing navi-
gation laws would be increased by the amendments.
The Earl of HARROWBY said he thought the true
question was, whether they 'should not first secure reci-
procity, before they admitted foreign countries to privi-
leges from which they were now debarred. And as
there was nothing of value which they could expect in
return for their generous relaxation, he thought their
Lordships would have no difficulty in affirming the
propositions submitted by his Noble Friend near him
(Lord Stanley).
Earl GRANVILLE said he believed, that though the
amendment which the Noble Lord on the cross-benches
(Lord Wharncliffe) had placed upon the paper was in-
terior to the proposition of the Government, still he be-
lieved it to be superior to that of the Noble Lord oppo-
site. In his own opinion, it was exceedingly unwise
to act upon reciprocity treaties; and with regard to those
countries with which they were not on terms of reci-
procity, he would ask whether it was wise to throw the
whole weight of their navigation law restrictions into
the scale against them, notwithstanding the power
they at present possessed of exercising a re-
taliatory line of policy. After illustrating his
arguments by referring briefly to the trading
clauses with respect to Belgium, France, and Spain, the
Noble Earl said he was of opinion, upon consideration
of these retaliation principles, that it was impolitic to
enter into the interminable special pleading which the
proposition of the Noble Lord opposite would neces-
sarily involve them in. That, at least, was one reason
why such a proposition should be rejected. With regard
to the 200,000 seamen who constituted the marine of
Great Britain, from what source, he would ask, were
' hey to be supplied, should this Bill be carried into a law?
Was it from Norway or Denmark ? Surely not ; nor
could it be from the United States, who were obliged to
compose their own crews of three-fourths Englishmen.—
(Hear, hear.) It had been asserted that the statistics
ity which it was sought to support this question had
been blown out of the waters by the speech of
he Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), and that
the speech of the Noble Lord had produced a
very powerful impression on their Lordships'
minds. This last assertion was not all disiposed
o question ; but he could not admit that the Noble
Lore had blown out of the waters the case of the
dvucates of this measure, or that he had uttered one
word which weakened its statistical position.—(Hear,
:,ear.) He (Earl Granville) was prepared to show that
..he-more the figures were knocked about the more in-
contestibly did they prove the strength and value of the
arguments relied upon by the advocates of this Bill.
With respeet to Mr. Porter, to whom frequent allusion had
been made in the course of this debate, he (Earl Gran-
vibe) felr he would'not be justified were he not to make
-rime brief allusion. Tne Noble Earl opposite (Earl
flarrowby) had accused that gentleman of fencing with
the question of foreign tonnage, when he was under
grounde vpa,oi
nlPorter
ti)eoexaminationruhraafsdargh),isavudteochnfhoa
occasion
chaeaehr
socei
nado
re trimthgdoem,
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Lori COLCHESTER,nnt understoodahlwhoto competitionsa almostinaudiblethe pr ev
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British ships did.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that iafS,natd‘cstceotshrdain-t
accord-
ing to the Noble Lord, the present law operated so in-
juriously, and if the system was so bad, why should they
no so Clamorous for the continuance of it? The amend-
ments of the Noble Lord (Stanley), involved an infrac-
tion of treaties which t hey had made with ether coun-
ries. It was absurd to say that the present system
might be relaxed in the case of one or two colonies that
might require it ; but if it was just to grant concessions
:o one colony, why not grant them to all? The fact
was, that a general and comprehensive measure was re-
quired to deal with the whole subject, and this was that
Measure.
Lord BROUGHAM would make a short statement to
justify the vote which he intended to give in favour of
the amendmer a The Noble Earl (Granville) depre-
cated malting speeches en this stage of the Bill, and) et
the Noble Lord himself made a long speech, not upon
the amendment, but upon the whole question involved in
the measure before the House. He contended that the
use made of Mr. Porter's figures by the Noble Earl
(Granville) was not a correct one—for instance, the
Noble Earl arrived at the conclusion that a particular
vessel had carried a larger tonnage by multiplying the
number of voyages which she had taken. The Noble
Lord then referred to a meeting held at Liverpool to
support this Bill, and read a resolution which declared
that this Bill was only the precursor of other measures
which were to sweep away all restrictions, Here was an
avowal' of the charism( r of this measure, which war-
ranted him in opposing it. Lord Melbourne on one occa-
sion said that the man who thought there ought to be
no restrictions, was fitter for a place in Bedlam than for
a seat in that House. Hull did not sympathise with
Liverpool, as was shown by the tact, that the Member
for Hull himself, an officer of the Crown, voted against
the Bill now before their Lordships' House. There was
net a commercial man of consideration in the City of
London with whom he was acquainted, that was in
faveur of the measure ; and the Lord Mayor of London
—as good a Whig as the Noble Marquis opposite—had
not supported the Bill in its stages in the House of Com-
!noes. He denied also that the majority in the House of
Commons respecting this measure, was of such a cha-
racter as to warrant their Lordships in supporting it.
The proposition of the Government being to throw open
the whole trade of the country, except the coasting
trade, but to give the power of exercising retaliation
towards any country which might be found unfairly
transferring the trade, and that of the Noble Lord on
the cross-benches being to maintain the system under
which their mercantile marine had flourished, and
their navy having been created, and afterwards to apply
a particular system of reciprocity, it became necessary to
see whether they were sure of obtaining a return of their
concessions atter they were made. [The Noble Lord
was here much interrupted by the somewhat loud talk-
ing which proceeded from a group of Members of the
other House standing around the throne, and addressed
them thus :—" if th'oae Gentlemen who were talking so
loud onl3 knew the inconvenience of having to speak
above them, they would at once remove to a place more
convenient for themselves, and infinitely more convenient
tor me." j Ou that point they had sufficient proof that
whilst, on the one hand, they would be allowing the
Americans to enjoy as much of the trade with the colo-
nies and the other countries of the world as they could
acquire, there was no echo: Late return to which they
could look forward with any prospect of success.—
(Cries of " Hear, hi ale") He had no question of the
superiority of the plan proposed by his Noble Friend
near him (Lord Stanley), and although it was said that
the only difference between that plan and the one pro-
pised by the Noble Lord on the cross benches was a
difference as to the modus operandi, still, he apprehended
the House would be of opinion that that difference in the
rnodus operandi would lead to an immense difference in
the general result to the consumers and the community
at large. He was prepared, the rofore, to support the
amendment
aallobleisnot
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ee
ht tadhe Noble
would
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approaching
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etne
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Government.
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and
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sgesaih
decide the House, they could not decide the Com-
Inittee.—(llear, hear.) There did not appear to be any
pressing necessity for the measure which was thus pre-
cipitately urged upon the House, but yet the Government
were obviously determined on pushing it, although the
advantages, its success on the navigation system, its
utility, and above all, its claim to general admiration as
having given birth to their navy, had been acknowledged
by some of the most distinguished men which the countrywhich
been
had produced. He would ask the House, therefore, de-
liberately, what great cause it was that should impel
justlyit lhi et
sm i tipo(r)otall
nt?reodylßtt
hitiihjs,esyhyi persisted system, of
o
fo*
would do irreparable injury
to the shipping interest of
the country, and cut at the roots the only available means
by which their navy could be recruited. Fur those
reasons he should give his vote against the measure
submitted by her Majesty's Government.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM complained that the Noble and
Learned Lord who had just spoken had not sufficiently
confined himself to the question before the House, which
was far more restricted in its limits than the Noble and
Learned Lord appeared to suppose. A large part of his
Noble and Learned Friend's speech had not been ad-
dressed to the subject immediately before their Lord-
ships. As to the wisdom of our ancestors shown in
these laws, he thought that the argument drawn from
their existence for two centuries was no proof (if
their adaptation to our present circumstances. We
had outgrown the age at which such laws could be use-
ful. But even taking his Noble and Learned Friend's
own argument as to defence,
he would ask, where was