The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-30 00:00:00

they possessed might vary well be rraneged for porpesee of local im-
provement by placing it under the control mei ...iireetion nettle-
rity selected for that purpose by the popular voice, in conformity with
the erineiple of the Rill. That is, in other words, let the principleof
the 1111. franchise be adhered to with respect to the persons who shall
choose these authorities. In case that the majority of the constituent
boil, should choose to apply to the Lord Lieutenant for a charter, on the
principle- of the Bill, let the Lord Lieutenant be empowered to com Ply
with the request. 1 cannot, however, take the constituent body just as
I find them in the Bill. I would require occupancy for one year To
this I would add six months' residence, and a previous paying up of all
the taxes. With these conditions, and if the householder were
rated at Id!. to the Poorwate, I would consent to give the Crown a
power to grant a charter on the application cf the majority of the Rate-
payers. I can readily conceive that in towns where corporate
property exists there might be a etish to continue the corpora-
tion ; but where there is no sneli property I can easily cane, ice a (Hs-
inc'inaTien on the part of the inhabitants to burthen themselves with the
expense of corporate etficeis. Wey, then, net leave to the rate-payers
a free choice upon this point ? 'there may be corporate towns which
would not desire to have a municipal body, and yet would wish to este-
. Midi some mode of managing the funds. How do you propose to act
in such cases ? If they would rather not have corporations, and yet de-
sire to have the corporate property well !ravaged for the benefit of the
town, let the 10!. householder; elect a committee, and entrust to it the
- application of the corporate funds to public purposes. I am not aware
tell have omitted any point on which it is necevary for me further
explain__
tot 1 JOIN RUSF.ELL.- With resrset to the appointment of Mayor.
Sir R. do not choose to encumber my st dement with too
many end trio minute details. Ido not ask the Noble Lord to agree to-
night in the view which I take of the sobject, and I reserve to myself
the right of expressing my opinion as to any parts upon which I have
not touched at any future pencil attic proceeding. I sha'l not now de-
tain the House Imager. I have stated my views upon the subject—l
I t eve done aci la a very imperfeet manlier, hut I hope in a temper
mit a spirit not unbefitting the ticeesiun.—(Cheers from both sides.) I
am en st cles-rous of seeing this Inng.controverted question brought at
Let to a satisfactory result.—(Renewed cheers.) May be that the
emit We which I have thought fit to pursue will expose me to blame
from both parties. Some wall perhaps imagine that I have con-
ceded too much, whilst ethers win be of opinion that I Mare granted
nothine. lle this as it may, I have the satisfaction to feel that I make
the concession from no interested or unworthy motive. If I persisted
in the proposition which I made on a former occasion, I perceive that,
in the present temper of the public mind there scold not be the most
remote chance of bringing this long-mooted question to anything like
a rwisraetory conclusion. I feel that it is highly desirable it should at
length be brought to some such conclusion, taking due precaution,
however, to procure every reisonalite security against the new rover
which is about to be created, and to see that that power be net applied
to ally other purposes than those for which it is canferred.—(Cheers.)
It is true that we could efti,ctively resist any step taken to carry out
he principle of the aperopriatiom feaus e and gentlemen opposite could
as etitetuatly resist us in any moditiaation of the Municipal Bel, but
what wetlid such a state of things not involve ? What would be the coin
sequence? Why night after night Hon. erentlernen would come down
to the House with swraps of speeches in ilithr pockets, for the purpose
of a.-pcating expressions and opiniens, whilth each had used on
former occasions, or perhaps both parties might recede upon points
which each should continue to (wimpy with but little adearitage to the
pub:;c service. It is better on the whole for the peace of Ireland that
eon( ess'nn should be made on bath sides, for the purpose of bringing this
quefien to a sertlement,—(Hear, bear, hear.) I dare say that the course
whirls I have adopted will dissatisfe many, but I console my,elf with
the consciousness that what I have done is in consonance with every
principle of the Established Church in Ireland-with the principle
which governed the Act of Union with that country, and with the split
which governed the Act for Removing Civil Disabilities in Ireland.—
(Cheeret On the other hand, the propositien which I make is not op-
posed in principle to the plan of her Majesty's Ministers. It may be
asked or one aby Ido not leave tho question as it is ? I answer to
that--I ray that we have neutralized the power of the Corp orations, and
they etienct be continued as they were. It would be impossible to con.
thole them as useful institutions tarot effective for any good. I feel it
Incumbent on me, being herein Opposition, to state fairly the terms ofthe
set tientroit into which lam sat:stied to come. I know, as I have already
said, that there will be dissatiafestion on both sides. The terms will be
eensidered exdrbitant on one !twirl and niggardly on the other;
but I feel confident in the hope that there i< in the kingdom a large
mass of moderate men, of sound judgment, who trill coolly wa-igh all
the tercurnstances, and arbitrate fairly between the two extreme par-
ties. Ihe great body is most desirous of having the questions ot issue
dually adjusted. It is a body which represents the moderation, the
reason, and the good sense of the three kingdorns.—( Hear, hear.) They
are, I repeat, most desirous for a final adjustment of these questions,
sand I am sure that they will feel satisfied with, and approve of any at-
. temp! which will be calculated to settle these'questions upon satisfactory
principles. The class to which I have alluded are desirous to see the
two countries *identified in their institutions as far as local circuins'artees •
will permit, and I concur with them in their desire. I wish, as far as
painter, to see an equality of civil privileges, as I recognise an eeie-
Jity religious liberty ; but I am, at the same time, anxious to
settle the principle which rscognises the integrity of the Established
Churr't in England and Ireland. I wilt resist, to the utmost of my •
poo ally attempt to alienate the nroeerty of the Church to secular
purpose:.---(Lord cheers.) If there is to be a re-adjustment ofChurch
property it mitst be merely for a better trieptation of it to spiritual pur-
poses, and for teercasirg the efficiency of the Establishment. But, above
all, I wi'l require a religious olawcrvance of those stipulations with re-
: petit to the Church by the Act of Vnion, and by that pegged the re-
moval of Roman Catholic disabiliti:s. ry the first of these Ake it iF
declared that the Establishment of the rretestant faith is on essential
article cf the Union, I think that the Church cf Ireland is inse-
parably connected both in faith and fortune with the Church of
Englend. By the other Act for Catholic Emancipation a solemn
engagement was implied that the removal of restraints to teed
rituality and the exercise of civil privileges by the Roman Catholics
Were perfectly consistent with the maintenance of tile Protestant Estab-
lishmetit, with the integrity of it: professions, and the security of its
legal rights and privileges.--(The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded
amidst loud cheers.)
,1 oral JOHN RUSSELL said that befere. he made any observations
eon the deteils which the flight Honourable Gentleman had put before
tee lacuse, he trust congratulate the House upon the spirit and manner
to which tie Right Honourable Centlearian had fulfilled that pledge
watch the other rOght he had given to the House, that nothing vvottid
fail from him on the present occasion which should be likely to obstruct
thepreposet for an adjustment of those questione—tHeae, hear.) No-
thing had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman ea:eulateri to
have that effect, and thougli he might differ from the Right Hots. Gen-
tleman in matters of opinion, yet they were not marked with such dif_
ferencea as to principles as could forbid them to hope that there might
be an adjustment determined upon that could be earrierl into effect in
the present Session.—;Hear, hear.) He Mt—as the Eight Honourable
Gentleman felt—perhaps he had more right to feel—that he was more
subject to reproach than the Right Honourable Gentleman, that they
had receded from ground which they had formerly occupied. He had
already stated to the House that he considered that the prolongation
of these questions, and that their discossiori from year to year, without
any prospect of a settlement, might be injurioue to the interests of
the two countries.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The injury scats very great—it
extended far beyond those who were concerned in these debates; for as
far as they themselves were concerned, they might go away froin that
place, after a spirited and animated discussion, contented each that he
had supported that view of the question, which he beiieved to be most
conducive to the interest of the empire.— (Hear, hear.) But the fel re
of the settierremt of the questions affected, most deeply affected, the in-
terests of those in Ireland who might, as with regard to the tithe ques-
tion, teal themselves bound to offer on the one side resistance to the le-
gal enforcement of tithes, while they thought open the other side, that
they were reduced to poverty, and that there had bean abandonment of
their interests ar.d of their just rights. Thus great injury might conti.
roue to he done by the question being left unsettled. And then, with
regard to corporations, while the question respecting them was undeter-
mined, great odium and obloquy was incurred, and the. perpetuation of
the evil was likely to lead to conflicts in which the happiness of society
might be destroyed. Such were the consequences that might follow
from keeping questions in suspense by the divisions of parties in that
lxouse., For these reasons then, and mainly that seeing, as the Right
Honourable Gentleman had said, that though those on the Ministerial
benches might retain the appropriation principle, they ahould
not he likely to obtain a law affirming that principle; and though the
opposite party might contend for the abolition of corporations, yet it
was not probable that that abolition could be carried into effect by the
vote of that House. Leaving then the hopeless nature of the contest in
which they were engaged, and being most anxious that the crib, which
foliowed from it should cease, he came prepared to this discussion with
thetiet ply-rooted conviction on his mind, that they ought to use all their
e,owers to have an amicable adjustment of those questions. He had
already stated that the continuance of these contentions were likely to
he iniuritaus to the Constitution Agee.; because, he could not think that,
looking to the proceedings of the two branches of the Legislature, and
seeing that they were unable liar so wary years to agree upon the
principis 4 rue ruling a vital portion of the empire, was likely to be con-
sliteiveto the maintenance of the opinion that thelegislative powers could
be botietieially exercised by them. There could be no doubt that, ra-
cet.dog team the gnome they had occupied, they might be reproached for

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a C.lrleeiAi.lll or an abandonment of print.iple. lie dA not think, he did
not ;eel, ILA they woe justly liabiL to that reproach ; because
he u.. iarisfied he slid not sacrifice the interests of his country for
the .ake of party, or for the sake of those connected with him.—;Hear,

hear. But feeling, on the contrary, that the interests of his cCuntry.

requicra it, he att.2nipteci the zet.::eineilt of these questions. He felt
that tlik,...e questions, which hither:o he had at:vocated, i,e22use he felt

them to Le trur, and jest—and as to the adjustment of them, he was

ready to content to it, because he thought that the interests or the coun.

try r?.quirel that that consent Ahouhl be given, and that the attempt al

adjustment z,hould be made._-'Cheep•.) With re petit to the first

time rdemd to by the Right Hon, Gentleman, namely, the tithe
which the Government had propoEed, end the attempt to rescind
the reiniution of 1833, he should not then at ail touch urn) the reasons

wjeh ;:ail been give❑ by the Right icon. Baronet for taking the course
whien had then ben ro.irsucd. bis.h respect to die courta which the

Governmeut had pursued, he did confess that it did apper to him
that if he did not make the proposition which lie had made in former

year,.;. it was that, though we mig,lit have carried it by a small rm.

jori !r, yet there was no prJspcct of its settlement is the present
sessioi,, nor, he might add, in a future session. If, then, thity did not
make that proposition, they felt bound, looking to the affairs of the
country, and of the Church of Ireland, to make such a propo-
sal as was likely to give security and satisfaction, they thought
these r.:solutiDn.i were likely to produce conciliation ; and while they re-
moved, on the one hand, liabilities from those who are ob:iged to pay,
yet :iwy gave, on the other security to the Church subject to a

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deduction. In former debate; he observed tat great misunderstanding
pievoilerl in some who had spoken with regard to the sixth proposition.
After ,ome observations not distinctly heard in the gallery, the Noble

Lorl continued by remarking that he did not think. atter the speech of
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the I:;ght Honourable Gentleman the Member for tha Univ. rsity of
Dublin, on a former night, and the speech which the flight Honourable
Gent:man had made that night—he did not thin!; it would be wise to

pr -nos,. a redemption of tithes. The flight Honourable Gentleman
had ,aboured to show that there ougi,t not to be an investment on land.
Now, the original proposition for such investment had come from the

Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Ciaatvidge, in
1823. It had also been proposed by Lord Hatherton in the Bill of lgt3-1,
and it had formed part of the Bill of Sir H. Hardinge in 1535. Theprin-
eiple,tlien, had been laid down ; but when it was stated by them, who had
the opinions of those most deeply interested in the matter, an 4 who de.
dared that they did not consider such a plan advisable, then it was his
opinion that it would not be desirable to proceed with any plan for the
redemption or investment Ile considered the toestion difficult and
re,.tplicated, and believed that at present it would be beat not to attempt
inedo!ing with it. It had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman
that the present calm prevailing is Ireland upon the subject of tithes
might be delusive, and that they could sot calculate upon thi;ags te-
naming as they were. lie entirely agreed in tie,?propusition with the
fatig!tt Hon. Gentleman, and he thought also that soffsc .-;f them who
had a-,itaterl upon the subject of tithes might have felt .
longer to oppose the law, it2=l.l3c they wished to express their con&
s.trice in those wh,, administered tl:e The Right lion.

.GeneeTrian has touched upon the distribution Cf Ciu►rch property,;;;(l
Ahe atntition of what he eal!ed " sit:cures in the Church." He ►►wa? not

prevartql to give at that anGnlen a • • i • °lt'd be felt in coming
- ---
----
t definite opinion upon that subject ;
" difhetlity w . but he holiPved that very consicianbl..
„.,,,t. In clauses which
to an atreetnent upon clauses affecting that Stl..y.,
0,3g._ , aid
not
appeal
had teen propcyien I,y the Noble. Lord opposit c...,...:) • " "
:at firt,t that any great difficulties could be cilseuverea,toveat tsh:?:_nll,-)2e71.
apu.l discussion that it wax not possible to come 0
Hon.
no wished likewise. (as we tuidt.rit•ao4) to throw out the Hight
Cent-le:flan, as well asthe Noble Lorri 1,3,ac hltn, W''''ther' fors 0
be a,}
the peraraneney of the .Church in Ire'and, if there .12: n•-, •.! ' I
,
inveidment hi the lituds, Or in laud whether the rent charges CailvCi„"
in the south of Ireland should ant be transferred to the mall. 'Mal