The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-19 00:00:00

killed. wounded, or made prisoners, had reached the Go- t and it would be just as absurd, in a Bill for their eminnota-
vernment. lion, to propose the insertion of a clause for the abi.,litnoof.
Lord J. RUSSELL (who s;ioke in a very low tone) tithe:, as it would he in a Bill for the regulation 01_u,,01)1_,,
would take this opportunity to state that the inquiry un- rations to propose the abolition of Corporations.
astt
dertaken by the Commissioners into the state of the poor cheers.) It was most important lhr the country
trusted'll
(as we understood) in. Berkshire WAS' complete, and the Re- Bill should pass during the present Session, and he.
port would be presented to-morrow. He would, on Friday, that the Committee would not assent to the amendm.Til'
be prepared to move for a Committee to carry into effect proposed by the Hon. Member ibr Finsbury, Front I",
their suggestions, and in the meantime would have the Re• attention which the Hon. Member had paid to the lair
port printed, that the House might bl better prepared to the question,, he would recommend him to pursue 11:
discuss the subject when it came regularly before them. studies, and he (the Attorney-General) would have gre,
He also announced the com:detioa of the separate arrange-- pleasure in moving his call to the bar, and as be had some
ments recommended by the Commissioners in relation to patronage he might appoint him his devil.....(ltattgliter.)
the bishopric of Durham, to be effected in the new Bill, in Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the House wet,: 61
which provision was made, first for detersmining the extent opinion that the personal tithe should be done away with, be
of the diocese, and the duties, authority, and income of the had no objection to have a Bill brought in for that purposes
Bishop ; second, declaring the duties, privileges, and in. Mr. T. Di NCOMBB felt himself called on to take tlitt
come of the Dean and Chapter. sense of the Hotto upon the subject.
The Bill was then read a first time. Lord J, itESSIILL was tva4 to bring in a Bill nn thP
The Irish Constabulary Bill amendments, Providing for subject, and \VAS Sure tb Qnnittussioners would direct their
the increase of power to the Lord Lieutenant iii @ertain attention subject of fisheries, with a view to such a
cases, and additional remuneration tit payitiasterS of that propose.
force, was brought up by Lord Morpeth, mid read it first Tile House then divided, when there appeared—
and second time. For the Amendment
LORD'S nAY BILL. Against it 96
Sir ANDREW AGNEW rose to move the second MAjority
reading of the Lord's Day Bill, and a number of petitions Clauses 77 to el were then agreed to.
in favour of it were laid on the table. Ile was well aware Mr. GALLY KNIGHT then moved '.JII) following re-
that there was great reluctance to listen to his observations solution—" Provided always, and be it .Ane,ted, that in case
in that House ; hut he was happy to think that no similar notice in writing, under the hands of any landowners or
reluctance prevailed out of it, to do justice to this important tithe-owners, whose' interest in the lands or tithes of the
topic. A considerable popular error had been promulgated parish shall not be less than ono-half the lands subject to
with respect to the object of his Bill, which had been re- tithes, one-half of the great tithes, or one half of the small
presented as framed by him to coerce the poor and not the tithes of din parish shall be given to the Commissioner
rich.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, they took the trouble or Assistant Commissioner, acting in that behalf,.
to look into its provisions, and inquire into its probable ef- within one calendar otonth next after the notice of the
fects, they would learn that such was not likely to be the intention to make an award shall have been given as afore-
results attending its operation. The clauses had, on the said, • that the average value to be ascertaineo,
contrary, been framed. with special attention to the pro- as last atbresaid, will not fairly represent the sram
tection they would afford to the labourer, and to save which ought to be taken, for calculating the per-
him from compulsory toil on the Sabbath.—(4onical =nem commutation of the tithes of the said parish ; or if
cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite who Indulged in it shall appear to any assistant-commissioner by whim the
such pleasantry at his mode of effecting this object (which average value of the tithes shall be estimt,ted in any parish.
was on all hands allowed to be so desirable; might have some that the composition hitherto agreed to he taken for the
more applicable scheme in his pocket, but he (Sir Andrew tithes of the said parish is in any respect fraudulent or un-
Agnew) could not devise a better. The technical manner just, or that by reason of any charges imposed by .Parlia-
in which the Bill was brought up appeared also to alarm ment on any lands for drainage or embankment, or by reason
several Hon. Members, but this was the result of extensive of Any other penliar circumstances relating to the said pa-
consideration, to meet a variety of pressing consideratiera. Ash, considerations exist which have not been duly attended
He referred to the petitions which crowded tho table ; sonic to, in any of which cases he shall make a report, it sbgt
from the fish-market-men and poulterers, from the inha- he lawful for the commissicners to direct some assistant
bitants of Chelsea, the waggoners of the great western Commissioner to hear all the parties interested in the said
road, and the boatmen on the canals, as the be proof tithes, on a day or days to be appointed by the •eommis-
be could offer of the interest the industrious classes took sioners or assistant commissioner for that purrose, and
in forwarding the object of the Lord's Day Bill. The thereupon to make such order concerning the, sum to he
latter class declared that they were altogether deprived taken for calculating a permanent commutae.on of the said
of any opportunity of moral and religious instruction. tithes as to them shall seem equitable."
Last year petitions had come from some hundreds of them Lord J. RUSSELL objected to its introduction ; and,
in favour of it. t after a short conversation, the clause was withdrawn, with
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that every class of the commu- a promise from Mr. G. Knight again to bring it forward.
nity had expressed their wish that the House would afford In answer to a question,
them protection on the Lord's Day, and enable them to Lord J. RUSSELL thought the Bill might be re-corn-
rest from their fatiguing labours. But this was the lowest mitted about ten days after the holidays.
ground on which the principle of the Bill could be defended. The House then resumed, and the Report was orehered
In legislating for the West India slaves they preserved for to be brought up on Friday.
their use part of Saturday and the whole of Sunday,— CONSTABULARY BILL (IRELAND)
(Hear.) There wore other considerations necessary to be On the question that the House agree to the-Lords'
acted on than those involved in the authority of the fourth amendments to the Constabulary Bill (Ireland), some eon-
commandment. Other commandments had additional in- Yersation arose, when—
fluence imparted to them by the force of human laws. Le- Lord COLE moved that the word " freemason "be
gislators did not suffer the murderer to escape unpunished. omitted, which was negatived without a division. He then
His Hon. Friend would bring the subject again and again moved that the words " friendly brothers " be inserted ;
before the House, till he obtained protection for the people when the House divided, and there appeared--
on the Lord's Day. For the amendment
Mr. G: H. WARD considered this a most objectionable Against it

and inconsistent measure. If the public ought to lac bound
by the letter of the 4th Commandment, then the Bill was a
bad Bill, and the spirit in which it was 11.amed was not an
honest one ; for there was no such exception in that Com-
mandment as was contained in the 26th clause of the Bill,
which permitted servants to work. It was doubtless de-
sirable that Sunday should be a day of rest and recreation,
a day of cessation from toil and trouble, to the working
classes. But how did the Hon. Baronet propose to pro-
vide for their relaxation ? He took every precaution to
deprive them of all means of locomotion. He shut them
up in narrow streets, from which no omnibus or wherry
dare attempt to convey them to the fresh air of the coun-
try. - They had no means of escape by land or by water
from the pains and penalties of the Bill.--0-lear.) It was
not a Bill to coerce the rich—it was a Bill that told with
tenfold hardship on the poor, It deprived them of the right
of purchase on Sundays, though half the industrious classes
habitually bought their week's provision no that day. if
shut out of the city markets they sought to procure refresh-
ments in the country, the penalties of the Bill again stared
the dealers in the face, and left the hungry customers no
remedy. The Hon. Baronet had proposed what was de-
cidedly impracticable. How was it possible to prevent the
sailing of ships on Sunday, or to enter into all various de-
tails contained in the Hon. Baronet's Bill? He should
move that the Bill be read that day six months.
Captain PECHELL said it was quite impossible to
modify this Bill so as to make it a tolerable one. From
most of the fishing ports the fishing boats sailed on Sun-
day afternoon, the fishermen coming in on the Saturday, to
enable them to perform their religious duties. The Hon.
Baronet's Bill would put a stop to the whole of the fisheries
of this country.
Colonel THOMPSON denied that time was any au-
thority in the Christian Scriptures for the imposition of a
Jewish Sabbath.
Mr. AGLIONBY opposed the Bill.
Mr. SHAW would vote for the second reading, because
though he objected to many of the clauses of the Bill, some
legislation on the subject was required.
• Lord A. LENNOX would vote for the second reading
on the same grounds.
Mr. PRY ME was favourable to some legislation on the
subject, but would not support such a Bill as this.
Major C. BRUCE deprecated some of the clauses of the
Bill, but thought it ought to go into Committee.
Mr. H. HUGHES thought that the Bill ought to be
read a second time.
Sir S. CANNING was favourable to the principle of
the Bill, but could not go the length of its provisions.
Lord J. RUSSELL had voted for the introduction of
the Bill, and would not therefore vote against the second
reading if he. thought it could be amended in Committee ;
but the whole Bill, from beginning to end, was so objec-
tionable that hardly a clause could be expected to he
adopted, and it was therefore useless to read it a second
time. He must add that such indiscreet attempts were
calculated to prejudice, by casting a ridicule upon, the ob-
ject which the Hon. Baronet had himself in view.
Mr. A. JOHNSTONE defended the Bill.
Mr. C. BARCLAY could not vote for the second read-
ing of a 13111, to almost every clause of which almost every
Member had objected.
Mr. HARDY thought the Bill ought to be read a se-
cond time.
Sir A. AGNEW replied.
The whole discussion was interrupted by repeated cries of
" Question, question," " Divide, divide."
The House then divided, when there appeared-- '`
For the 13111 43
For the Amendment
Majority for the Amendment —32
TITHE COMMUTATION BILL.
The House went into Committee on the Tithe Com-
mutation Bill.
Clauses 50 to 70 inclusive were agreed to.
Clauses 71, 72, 73, 74, and 75 were, after some discus.
sion on them, likewise agreed to.
On clause 76 being proposed,
Mr. DUNCOMBE moved as an amendment to leave
out the following words, " or the tithes of fish or of
fishing," or to " the tithes of mills," or any personal tithe,
or to any mixed tithes not arising upon land," and to
add these words by way of proviso at the end of each
section, " that from and after the passing of this Act
all tithes of fish or of fishing, or of personal tithes,
shall cease and determine." The Hon. Member pro-
ceeded to say, that he considered it to be a great hardship
to exact tithes from these poor fishermen who risked their
lives to earn a precarious subsistence. There was ano-
ther description of tithe which he was sure that every
Member of the House would concur with him in wishing to
see done away with, lie meant the tithe on labourers. In
proof of the • hardship of this case the Hon. Member read
from Cobbett's " Legacy to the Parsons" the case of Dods-
worth and other labourers who were sent to gaol by a
magistrate, who was also a parson, for default in the pay-
ment of tithe. The Hon. Member read some quotations
from some legal authorities, for the purpose of showing that
personal tithes differed esrentially in their nature from other
tithes, and ought to be done away with.
The amendment having been put, '
Lord J. RUSSELL would be glad to see personal tithes
abolished, for he considered them a great hardship on those
classes particularly which had been alluded to by the Hon.
Gentleman. He, however, thought that this abolition
ought not to be effected by a clause in a Bill in this way.
It would be a fit subject for the Commissioners appointed
under this Bill to inquire into the nature and extent of these
personal tithes, with a view to compensating those Clergy-
men whose rights would be interfered with in their aboli-
tion. A great friend of the Church, the Bishop of Exeter,
was anxious for the abolition of this description of tithes.
In many instances this right had been given up by the
Clergy, but in several places it was still enforced.
he did not think that the amendment
_props°,u by,
the
Hon. Gentleman was the proper way to put an end to the
grievance complained of.
After a short conversation.
The ATTORNEYs(ir 'TERAL said that the Bill
before the Hopp for the commutation of tithes ;

Majority against it —IB
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'Cler,',.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 18.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack,
five minutes after 5 o'clock.

MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Lord STANLEY, Mr. P. ROWARD, Mr. BAINES,
and several other Honourable Members brought uP
from the Commons the following amongst other Bills—the,
Carlisle Docks' Bill, the York and North Midland Railway
Bill, the Leeds and Manchester Railway Bill, which were
severally read a first time.
The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from an. in-
dividual, expressing his doubts as to the orthodoxy of the
Church Liturgy, and praying the House to adopt some
means (so we understood) to solve the difficulties under
which he laboured.

Lord HOLLAND objected to the reception of the pe-
tition, as being irregular and ludicrous.
Petition withdrawn.
Several petitions were presented from Methodists, in fa-
vour of a more rigorous observance of the Sabbath.
Lord CLARE gave notice that he would, on the 31st
inst. present a petition from the East India Merchlnts,
praying for an equalization of Sugar Duties, and be would
then ask the Government what were their views on the
subject.

Lord ROSSLYN moved (as we understood) for a re-
turn of the appeals from England, Ireland, and Scotland,
since 1833.

DURHAM ECCLESIASTICAL BILL.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY gave notice teat
when this Bill was brought on, on the 3;st instant, aeJord-
ing to the motion of the Marquis of Lansdowne, he should
move on the second reading that the surplus revenues be
appropriated within the diocese to the enlargement of small
livings and the support of the University.
AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.

In answer to a question from the Duke of RICH-
MOND, whether the Government had received dispatches.
from our Ambassador in Spain, respecting the late attack
at St. Sebastian,
The Earl of MINTO said that Government had re-
ceived only one dispatch, dated the sth instant, respecting
the battle alluded to, in which his Majesty's naval force
took a part.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a copy of this
dispatch.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)

BILL.

The Order of the Day for the third reading of the Mil'
nicipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill having been read,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose and spoke to the,
following effect :—My Lords, I rise to move the third
reading of the altered Bill, which now stands entitled-- •
A Bill for the Regulation of Munitipal Affairs in Ire'
land, and for the Abolition of M•anicipal Corporations
therein." In rising to move this third reading, it certain 11
will be necessary for me to occupy but a very short portion
of .your Lordships' attention, and I shall be glad if rilY„
comparative brevity upon this occasion shall in some degree
mitigate the inconvenieuce to which I am sensible I Ina"„
have put some of your Lordships, by requiring as a fay":
your attendance here on this usually vacant evening. Tha:"
the subject to which I am about to direct attention
one of paramount importance I am but too well
aware ; hut, nevertheless, it certainly would be unpar;
donable in me were I to occupy any considerable portion 01
your Lordships' time, when I feel it impossible for me tra ask
you to give a third reading to this Bill on any other arge"
ment than the one I shall presently have to state. 'Cher,
sition in which your Lordships stand in connection with
this measure is simply this :—The Commons House of PI;
liament having sent up to us a Bill, the object of which
was the substitution for self-elected and irresponsible Ca'
porations•in Ireland, Corporations that should be respon"'
sible, and should be fairly elected by the people of thai
country, it has seemed tit to the majority of your Lordshili
materially to alter that measure, and carefully to take o'lt
of the Bill all those portions of it which gave life and axis'
tence to new Corporations, while you have been please(l t:
retain all that extinguished life in all existing Corporat:onv
whatever. The effect, therefore, of the Bill as it o'4._
stands adopted by your Lordships, is, that the corporri:
system is for ever annihilated in Ireland, and that the ft'
of the Bill--for the preliminary words are somewhat tu..r
necessary—should, instead of being " A Bill for the req.:
lat:on of Municipal Affairs in Ireland, and for the ab°,..r
‘7
tion of Municipal Corporations therein," be ‘, Bill ro
abolishing the Corporations of Ireland, and making the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the time being sole cape;
a
rator thereof." My Lords, I have sometimes heard person
out of this House less learned than your Lordships, ot•
expressed some difficulty in knowing what was the tneauM
of the legal term " Corporation sole."—(Hear.) MY L°r,-1-- -
if this Bill shall pass into a law, you will be o°l,-
to boast of having given to the world an opportunity
witnessing in my Noble Friend near me, the present
Lieutenant of Ireland, a kg specimen of that ler,al eo
ra
ratter, exercising, in the vulgar as well as legal s Jnse ?t,
Corporation sole, all the rights, privileges, and inimenluar,
of the existing corporate bodies of that country.—(He to
and laughter.) This, my Lords, it is needless for
assure you, was far from the view of these who
this Bill in the other House of Parliament—it was
from the view of the majority of that other House of 1,71,_
introduced
this
liament who adopted this Bill on its being so introduced.
_u..
them. They contemplated no such tank:card-of COneei
jatoNtici
tion of powers in the hands of 'any single Tnarh"—<.„,ca.
cheers.) They did, undw:,'„,tedly, contemplate
sure to which your ordships have been plen2ed ;eel,
—and the of that assent I undoubtedly
value
all that was,
...ent
thes,
cud, certainly, propose to extinguish
proved to be corrupt and mischievous, and
liable to become corrupt and mischievous, in the "
by their
Corporations of Ireland, but they did not pro
Pdistitutions
allthea_tistin
measure to pass sentence upop the character and ino.
of that country, and to record its people as u ttt:,'"i`ch for
pable of sustaining anything like those functions "
centuries have been exercised, fairly exercised, by their fel-