The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-14 00:00:00

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Mr. TENNYSON said that the perusal of the printed
estimates would preclude the necessity of his going at much
length into the details. The sum to be expended this year was
1 711,9991., from which was to be deducted for the value of
stores 296,1821., leaving only the sum of 1,418,817/. to be
provided for. Last year the amount was 1,689,144/. so that
between the estimates of the last and the present year, there
was a difference of 270,627/. less charge on the public. De-
ducting, however, the balance in hand (as we understood),
the actual reduction of expenditure this year was 166,000/.
The Hon. Member then entered into some explanation of
the details, but in a low voice and conversational tone,
which rendered it impo'sible to collect the purport of his
observations. Respecting the college at Sandhurst (as
we understood), he stated that Government contemplated
sonic alterations. It was intended to admit pupils into
the academy at Woolwich on their paying a certain sum.
I t conclusion, the Hon. Member assured the Committee
that there was every disposition on the part of the Master-
General of the Ordnance to pay as much attention to eco-
nomy' as possible. He admitted that much had been done
in that way by the late Government, and hoped that the
present Administration would receive credit for following
the example of their predecessors. Considering that the
heads of the Ordnance had been but li!tle more than three
months in the department, he thought it would he admitted
that they hail done every thing that was practicable. It
was difficult within so short a period to take a compre.
hentrive view of se extensive a field as the ordnance, which .
comprehended 320 stations, and included an infinity of
accounts and matters connected with public works, re- •
pairs, &c. Allowance would be made for the inexperience
et the persons at present connected with the ordnance, anti
he trusted that the Non. Member for Middlesex would
admit that they could not have gone firther than they had
in so short a time. He could assure the Committee that
ad the establishments connected with the ordnance were
then undergoing, and would continue to be submitted to a
careful revision, with a view to the adption of every mea-
sure of economy and reduction consistent with their effi-
ciency and with the public service. The Hon. Member
then moved that a sum not exceeding 80,619/. be granted
to his Majesty far salaries of the Master-General and grin- •
cipal officers and clerks of the ordnance departments at
the Tower, Pall-mall, and Dublin, for the year 1831.
Sir HENRY FANE declared his satis!action at the
candid and honourable manner in which the Hon. Gentle-
man hail expressed himself with respect to the conduct of
the late Board of Ordnance under the head of economy.
Sir H. HARDINGE thought the present arrangement
of the estimates a very good one upon the whole, and was
disposed to admit that some of the alterations were likely
to be beneficial. Ife contended, however, that the real saving
to the public on the present estimate would be only about
3,000/., and that all the rest of the diminution of charge
arose from the postponement of works to be performed, or
from allowances on account of balances of stores. He did
not approve of the abolition of the office of Lieutenant-
General of the Ordnance; and argued, that with respect
to the Marines and the Navy Board, the present Govern-
ment had pursued a course similar to that which they cen-
sured their predecessors for adopting in reference to the
Ordnance. So much for the difference between the pro-
fessions of gentlemen when out of office, and their practice
when in the possession of power.
Mr. TENNYSON repeated his previous statements
with respect to the total amount of diminished charges and
saving upon the present estimate. He denied that the
Right lion. and Gallant Member was correct in describing
the saving as being only 3,0001.,—the Right lion. Gen-
tleman might just as well have asserted that it did not ex-
ceed 31. He (Mr. Tennyson) thought the details into
which he had before entered must have satisfied the Com-
mittee that the actual saving would be, stating it at the
lowest, 100,0001,, if net 166,0001.

Sir N. HARDINEE reiterated his former statement,
and contended that a diminution, on account of money not
drawn for works, the progress of which was saved, could
not be considered as a real saving of expenditure. With
respect to the military schools, those establishments were
all of a military nature, and if they were once let down,
Ministers, he was sure, would not be able easily to raise
them up again.
Sir H. FANE wished to draw the attention of the
Committee to one very important point, because it was
connected with the efficiency of the nary. The sum of
53,0001. was called for on account of repairs. Now he
doubted the adequacy of that sum, because he understood
that a most experienced and intelligent officer had stated,
that there were, at present, no less than 10,000 gun-car-
riages out of repair, and for which he could not answer.
Situated as Europe was at present, this was a matter of
naost serious importance. _

Mr. HUMEcensured the plan which Government had
long adopted, of collecting large quantities of stores to
perish and decay. Here it appeared, from the statement
of the Hon. Baronet, that-there were 10,000 rotten gun-
carriages in store. The saving proposed in these estimates
by his Majesty's Government were, he was sorry to say,
very trifling, but he trusted that they would be greater
hereafter. The whole expenditure under this head was ma-
nifestly too large, considering the situation of the country.
Sir H. FANE denied that he had spoken of rotten gun-
carriages. He said it was reported that a most expe-
rienced officer had represented that there were 10,000
gun-carriages which were out of repair. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended,
in opposition to the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge),
that a very considerable saving had been really effected in
these estimates. He certainly considered the not calling
for a grant, on account of certain works, as a saving._...
Some of those works might hereafter be deemed unnecessary.
Ssr H. HARDINGE maintained that a great saving
had been made under the Duke of Wellington. In the
salaries of civil officers alone, it was 47,0001. The num-
ber of stations now was one or two more than in 1792,
though we had now seven or eight powder magazines in-
cluded amongst them.
Mr. 51AI3ERLY said that the late Government had
acted in the teeth of the report of the Committe of Finance,
which hail recommended the abolition of the office of
Lieut.-General of the Ordnance. The present Govern-
ment immediately abolished the office, and yet it was ad-,
mirted the service was as well carried on without that office.
Sir 11. HARDINGE s Lid the recommendation of the
Committee was contrary to the evidence given before them.
Sir G. WARRENDER admitted and praised the eco-
nomy of the present Government, and said that the con-
duct of the late Administration, in resisting reductions
\Oriels had been recommended to them, brought about that
measure of Reform which he so much deprecated.
Mr. TENNYSON said that the present Government
had not begun the ordnance estimates. They bad Only
reviewed them. When they should have an opportunity
of forming estimates of their own, a greater reductions
might be expecte/J.
The motion was then agreed to.
The other items were then agreed to without observa-
tion ; and the House having resumed, the report was or-
dered to be received to-morrow (this day.)
CIVIL LIST BILL.

OR tin gacticon citht CIiAIiCELLGA of tht FACHEULIt,

the ri
Wont
to a f;
Govt
read ;
TIA
the u

the 01
major
The i

Warii
Donk

deny
Some
of thi
of de
Fran,
100
equal
sian

-Du

Bank
3 per
3 per
3 yi
Ditto
New:
per
4 per
tank

Jan
Ocl
Jan
Jan
Ap
Jan

Ireland
it poor-
ere they
ie would
land was

lot some
did not
it laws.
be the
and, and
bent, he

With
land, he
e. The
1(1 to re-

wesented
ad this,
resident

resolved

printed
at much

year was
value of
11. to be
1. so that
ar, there
blic. De—
erstood),
66,0001.
ration of
AI tune,
trt of his
urst (as
em plated
'pile into
4in sum.

)minittee
Master-
n to eco-
een done
that the
ollowing
that the
tan three
admitted
tble. It
compre.
e, which
ifinity of
)rks, re—

cperience
ante, and

m would
they bad
ttee that
ice were
tted to a

rry mea-
,heir effi-
Member
granted
ad prin-
nents at
331.

n at the
Gentle-
mduct of
notny.

ingement
and was
ere likely
al saving
aly about
rif chirge
rmed, or
He did
!utenant-
h respect
Govern-
they col-
:e to the
the pro-
practice

atementa
verges and
that the
escribing

)n. Gen-
t! not ex-
taila into
he Com-
it at the

:atement,
Loney not
%.1, could
With
!nts were

et down,
to raise

n of the
se it was

e sum of
Now he
lderstood
d stated,
gun-car-

answer.
matter of

nent had
stores to
uatement
ten gun-
estimates
y to say,
e greater
was ma-
country.
tten gun..
)st expe-
-1 10,000

mtended,
ardinge),
Erected in
of calling
aving,—
hecessary.
at saving
In the
'he num-
in 1792,
izines in-

nent had
Finance,
office of
Govern-
was ad-
hat office.
at of the
tre thew.
I the cco-
the con-

eduction,
bout that

vernment
bad only
portunity
reduction

obser va-

t was or-

ukcivu►,