The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

press the grounds on which he meant to give his vote
on this qocAtion, and to make some observations on the
:speech of the Hoc. :Member for the University of Duh.in
(\lr. Hamilion). While he considered the Church of
England—to which ho was proud to belong—was the
purest, and he spoke it without intention to give offence
w any other religion, he could not but express his regret
at the state of that Churzh in Ireland, and the manner in
which it was supportA. It was plain, he must say, that
Church formed bat a very small portion of the people of
the country; and the House should recollect that they
were dealing with it a.: a national question. The ground
on which he could give his vote for the motion now be-
fore the House, was not that he exp-cted that at that
late period of the session it would be successful, but to
mark his sense of the question; at the same time, in
voting for the motion to go into Committee, he did not
pledge him to vote for all those points in reference
to the state of the Established Church in Ireland which
the Honourable Member had referred to in introduc-
ing the question. Now, with reference to the
Church, he was bound to say that it had never been
the national Church of Ireland. They had seen the
conquest of Wales, and why did not those grievances
which afflicted Ireland prevail there? They had found
that with very few exceptions, the inhabitants were not
handed over to the Normans as the Irish were; and the
consequence was, that although they were exposed to
great difiiaulties in Wales, they had peace and tran-
quillity in that country, notwithstanding it was, as he re-
marked, a conquered country. The difference between
the countries was, that the people of Wales were left
their estates, while the Irish people were doomed to
have their estates divided among the Normans; and the
Governments of this country really thought no more of
the Irish, than they did of the natives when establishing
the colonies in America. The question seemed to him
to be a great grievance requiring decided redress. The
Point most desired in all churches was that she should
be the guardian and directress of the poor; but in Ire-
land the Church exercised no such kindly functions for
the benefit of the " mere Irish." Now while he gave
support to the motion, he differed from some of the
details which the Honourable and Gallant Member for
Middlesex announced his intention of moving if they
went into Committee.—(Hear, hear.) lie did
not think it necessary that a bishop should
have 4,000/. a year. Indeed, one of the best Bishops
of the Episcopal Church he ever knew had only 701. a
year.—(Hear, hear.) Fifteen hundred a year ought to
be the maximum allowance to each bishop. They were
bound to take steps to remedy the abuses which existed
in this respect—abuses which principally arose from the
fact of the Church in Ireland not being a national
church.

Mr. NAPIER would be quite willing to rest the case
of the Church on the able and eloqiient statement of his
Hon. and valued Colleague, but there were some mistakes
in the arguments of the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was
quite willing to compare the d.)ctrines of the Protestant
Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try
its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have
their own conscientious views of what a Church of
eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed
the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not
more than sufficient for its creditable support.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was
done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason-
able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the
working clergy.—(Hear.) There was, moreover, a
question of expediency involved in this matter, and he
contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant
Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity,
were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi-
cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but
he believed, after the utmost investigation, that the sum
actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners
for the Reduction of Ves,ry Cess and other matters,
amounted to between 650,000/. and 660.000/. a year.
The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and
when they were paying men out of a trust fund, it was
evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no
deti,.; to perform. There were not above 200 more
Rnean Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the
disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should
be sail that there were friars in orders outside the Ro-
man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointing to
the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protest.nt Church,
who were more numerous than the friars. With regard
to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to
say that he should not wish any portion of such a sum
to he given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give
an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It
was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the
motion of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for until
that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman
was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members
of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate
for tinkering the temporalities of the Establishment.
He had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman—
that he came of decent people—Ahat in point of fact he
was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly
was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh-
ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his
Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious
countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of
the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms:
—" No blame rests with the Court for their aspeint-
ments, and excellent and moral men were selected for all
vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap-
petted, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow-
heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway,
and those who did so, seized on their robes, and patents
of appointment, came over to Ireland, and were con-
secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) These
were the lineal descendants of St. Patrick. Let them
now see how the rest got on down to their own time.
The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr.
Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the
Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy,
on an average, had only 172/. 19s. nit'. per annum.
But some had only 50/. And as to averages, when the
corn-law was about to be repealed, it was asserted that
on an average every man, woman, and child in England
consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily,
whereas in point of tact it was well known that thousands
of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the
other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It
was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there
was another view of the case, showing how these aver-
ages told. The following summary was taken from a
paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of
the sums of money paid to the Established Church
of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,127/. 12s. 4d.; Deans,
22,6241. ss. 6d. ; ministers' money, 10,000/.; making
altogether, with glebe-lands, an aggregate sum
of 807 533/. 12s. 4d., to which should be added
75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.)
Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick—
( A laugh)—paid the common debt of nature, and then
came the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he
found in another public document, up to July, 1832, as
fallows:— Fowler, Aaehbishop of Dublin, 150,0001.;
Beresford, Bishop of Timm, `250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of
Cashel, 400,000/.; Stoprord, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.;
Bernard, Bishop of Limerick, 250,000/. ; Hawkins,
Bish ,p of Raphoo. 250 0001.; and several others, making
in all a sum of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not
.mean to insinuate that those Bishops were substituted
for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they
certainly fra,hered their nests very well. The Right
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home De;arcmont made a speech of which he did not
approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve-
nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholic
purposes any portion of it. His religion wa, not to be
sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl
Farteseue, pointing out the gri-vances of the Established
Church in Ireland, concluded by thanking the Honour-
able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which
he brought the question forward.
Major BERESFORD denied that the sum attributed
to the Archbishop of Tuarn, on which probate duty was
paid, amounted to 250.0001. When the statement was
first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the
most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,0004
and not 250,000/., as had been asserted.

111 r. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which
he referred was a public one, and at to the amount of
probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland
were indifferent to the mongter grievance of the E.tab-
lished Church, and protested against any endowment
being made to the Catholic Church.

Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of
religious equality in Ireland have reason to regret the
tone, or upshot, of the debate.—(Hear, hear.) But the
present is a melancholy occasion, and the Whig prin-
ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We
have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of
the appropriation clause, and now our melancholy duty
is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon. Secretary for
the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner,
while all the men who voted for the clause since 1835
are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(Hear
hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says
that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the
Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me
of my inconsistency, he should not forget that he
himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op-
posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the asst man to taunt
another with inconsistency; he is evidently a man of in-
firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted
for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle-
man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a
good practical plan." What is his plan? He would
endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He
knows that he dare not do it. Ho knows that that is a
step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt
so long as they have the government of the country in
their hands.—(Hear.) I regret that the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvan and one or two other members
of the Government have not given us the benefit of their
opinion. Assuredly they will be obliged to eat much
dirt to-night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever
flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can-
not go on night after night seeing one principle expire
after another. They may lean one night on a crutch
and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose—
(Great laughter)—but they are only staggering on, and
must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This
queition, which had already destroyed so many Govern-
ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's
present Ministry.—(Bear, hear.)
At the conclusion of the lion. Member's reply, there
was a ;,retty general rush from the Ministerial benches.
As the Members passed out they were greeted with
loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist side of the
House.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
F,r the motion ••• ••• ... 103
Against it ... ••• ••• 170
51.1j,Tity ••• ••• -67

The announcement of the numbers was greeted with
loud cheers by the minority.