The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

PRICE SEVENTENer.

not to remove their causes. Now, when union ought to be
encouraged, a Bill was introduced productive of disunion and
discontent. He had heard the various opinions in support of
it advanced, by both the enemies and the friends of Emancipa-
tion, and after all he could not divine its true cause. The
principles broached were of the most extraordinary nature
there was in fact no documentary evidence on which to found
it, but the whole argument turned on the notoriety of the pro,
ceedings of the Association. What sort of evidence was that
to proceed on. Let the statements of different Members of
the same Government be placed in juxta position with each
other, and what conclusion did they furnish. Observe the
contradictions between the opinions of the Chief Secretary fur
Ireland, and of the Irish Attorney-General. While one Faid
that the Catholic Priests headed an army of 20,000 collectors,
his Right Honourable Friend the Attorney-General, declar-
ed the same Priests were the most deserving and yet the most.
calumniated of men.—(Hear !)—Such was the value of parole
evidence.

Mr. GOULBURN rose to explain. He did not mty
that an Army of 20,000 Collectors was headed by 2,100
Priests. . . .

Mr. PLUNKETT said, he certainly did state that the Ca-
tholic Priests were most meritorious persons ; and he also re-
gretted the mischief which the Association did by interfering
with their pious and peaceful labours.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT—At all events there was a corn-
,plete contradiction between the Under Secretary_ for, State for
the Home Department and the Attorney General for Ire-
, land.—(A laugh.)—He hoped he should not misrepresent any •
Hon. Member; but if he recollected, the Ilon. Member for
Derry last night mentioned Mr. Devereux as one of the Cit.
tholic Association, and made it a charge that he had been one
of the delegates of 1792. It might be as well to remind the
House now, that that same Mr. Devereux' the next year, 17h3,
was one of a deputation of five who waited on his late Majesty,-
by whom he was most graciously received ! So that this per-
son who was particularly noticed by his Sovereign is a fit object of
honour to the supporters of the present Bill. An Honourable
and Learned Gentleman avowed last night, that if the Associa-
tion had sprung up in the strength of the Orange Societies he
should not object to its continuance, but that Association wait-
ed till the Orange Societies had been beaten bown. Such
was not the fact. It was when the Orange Societies boasted of
having double their numbers,. ' and by the way, he recollected
that when the Bill was levelled two years back against Orange
Societies, the Under Secretary of State acknowledged, that as
soon as the oaths were rettoved, he should become an Orange-
man. Be it also remembered, that the Association did not
arise till the Orangemen triumphed over the Government of
Ireland, and over that House, when it was the triumph of
neither party.—(Hear„ hear !)—Something had been said about
the leading Catholics having governed the Association by com-
pulsion. In answer, he should beg leave to read a part of a
letter received that day from Lord Fingal, who for the benefit
of his health, now resided at Clifton. It was thus—" To be ill
and always absent is to me most unfortunate at present, when
I should be most happy to join the efforts of the other Gentle-
men of the Association."—( Hear !)—Now when we said that
that Noble Person was distinguished through life for the mode,
ration of his character and for loyalty, he paid but an unworthy
tribute to his merits. When do government then intend to
stop the system ? The relative numbers of the Catholics and
Protestants have sensibly altered within a, few years. Mr. Po-
cock, in his account of Kilkenny, an inland county, says, that
the Protestants constantly decrease, and the Catholics as con-
stantly increase, and Mr. Tighe bears out the assertion.
Catholics some time back were to the Protestants us five to
two,—they are now as six to seven, and will Government wait
twenty years longer before they grant Emancipation, when the
proportion will be as eleven to twelve,—will they wait till it is
impossible to resist any longer. But for what object wait when
so good an opportunity presents itself of securing the tran-
quillity of the country. The people of England knew that the
Catholics had deep and bitter causes of resentment lie should,
however, conclude in the words of an inimitable writer, which
he thought were peculiarly applicable to the situation of the
Catholics

" A Morn,
Where waning clouds contend with growing light."
He believed the passing of the Bill would be attended with
most mischievous consequence s.
Mr. V. FITZGER A Id) should not reply to his Right Ho-
nourable Friend ; but he was compelled by a most painful sense
ofduty to support the Bill, and he could not reconcile it to him-
self to give a silent vote on so important a question. It was al-
ways with regret and sorrow that he supported any measure
trenching upon the rights of the people, and particularly a mea-
sure which affected his Catholic countrymen. There was no
danger, however, which he would not rather run than support
the Bill in the spirit in which he grieved to say it had been ad-
vocated by some of those for whom he felt the deepest respect
and affection. He deplored more than lie could express the
statement which had been indulged in byhis non. and esteemed
Friend the Member for Londonderry.—(Hear !)—But lie (Mr.
V. F.) should not 1.... cur to the period preceding the Cnionovlien
too much might be raked up of an acrimonious description .
Much had been said of the intemperance of the Association ;
but great allowance should be made for men in their situation.
With respect to the language of the Catholic Association he
did not think it necessary to detain the House upon that branch
of the question. Besides, thinking that there were other dangers
in the existence of that body more deserving of their atten-
tion, he thought that criticism too refined for the subject had
already been expended upon it. He would only take leave to
observe to the Honourable and Learned Member for Knaresbo.
I rough (Sir J. Mackintosh), that he scarred to have forgotten
one thing, viz.:—that the ignorant people, to who the Catho-
lic Proclamaticn was addressed, had not the benefit of his in-
terpretaticn of it ; and if they had they would not have under-
' stood it.—(Hear, hear !)—He would next address himself to
that part of the question which related to the interference of
the Catholic Association in the administration of criminal .
justice. If this interference were necessary, he would say
nothing about it. But he did not, think it necessary, and re-
' garded it, moreover, as decidedly calculated to prejudice the
proceedings of Courts of Justice. This was not the first time
allusion had been made to the existence of abuses in the admi-
nistration of the laws in Ireland. Upon former occasions he
had boldly challenged the accusers to come forward with facts,
and had distinctly declared that as far as the charge was appli-
cable to the sane' io: Courts of Justice he denied the truth of it
in the face of I'a 'liament. It was then said fiat the charge
was meant to apply-more to the general administration of the
laws. Ile was not, of course, prepared on the moment to nega-
tive this assertion • but it was remarkable that no facts had
since been adduced in support of it. On the other hand, every..
thing had been done by Parliament that could be done for the
purification of justice in that country, and many measures had
been adopted at the suggestion of Honourable (I,mtlemen op-
posite. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to notice
the several measures which had been passed for the improve-
nient of Ireland. He begged the House to remember the im-
portant changes which had been made for the belt r, with re-
ference to the power of the Grand Juries in Ireland. Great re-
formationshad be m effected, and they had latte ly heard no com-
plaints upon this subject. The state of the Magistracy was another
subject upon which the attention of the House had been ad.-
vantageously engaged. He did not mean to deny that a great
deal more remained to be done, but let them not undervalue
what has been effected. The great difNculty in all attempts
at amelioration in the condition of Ireland, was the obstructions
which conflicting interests placed in the way. He did not mean
to deny that the Catholic Association had done some good
in some cases. In a country where interference was snrie-
times useful, it was not easy to draw the line of forbearance.—
He was not the championnf all abuses, nor did he assert that
there were none. But he looked for their correction to thosl
wholesome checks which existed in all Constitutions, especially
in ours. With respect to the two cases which were cited in the
discussion by his Right Hon. Friend below (Mr. Goulhurn),
they had been argued by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Knaresborough (Sir J. blackintosh) as acquittals. But that
was not the point with regard to them. The point was.,
that the conduct of the Association had the effect of pre-
judging the casts before
was present at the trial of
Hanley, the soldier, and could bear teatitainkr totheacquittal
having been unanimous on the.part of: the bench of .131agis-.
mates: Such, however, was the state of the country, that.
tarrieeceodndtoucpteotiftiothnethene
after the trial the whole .of the forty.three. Magistrates
• to excuse in
Insurrection Act. There was, no doubt, much
on nor could he for one
panic. zi.iut then he
nt,for the re_moval-of the
abuse heaped upon that body. It
j in in the undisting9ishing
kept the Protestant part of
was certain that their conduct
could not deny that that panic had been increased by f •
unfair
means. was a sufficient argument in fa.,
means. This fact, how ,
must 'be the state of
your of the measure; for what m that coun-
Lord
tholic
try in the event of Counter Associations, which this panic
ALssieocuteuiatai
ti country in a state of great alarm and