The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

THE SUN,' LONDON,

whatever.—(Elear, hear.) Now, ' upon that subject
of the waste lands, I think it may be fairly
and truly contended that all the experience of the last
three years goes against the system of employing the
people in that way by means of the public money. We
have heard much of the wasteful expenditure of money
caused by the employment of people on the relief works;
and I believe it will be generally admitted that the ad-
vances of public money were directed to another and
better channel when it was determined to lend sums to
the proprietors of the land, and so enable them to im-
prove their estates, and in so doing employ the labouring
classes around them. A sum of 1,500,0001. has been
voted for the latter purpose, and the consequence has
been that employment has been given in a manner not
open to the objection that lay against the expenditure
of the public money on the relief works, while the me
tional tendency has been to draw together the relations
that ought to exist between the landlords and the la-
bouring poor.—(Hear.) I must be permitted to say a
word or two on the propriety of the grant of 50,000/.,
because I find that almost all the arguments employed
to-night have been with reference to that grant, though
I had hopes that, seeing it was decided two nights ago,
we should not have bee* called upon to re-argue the
question again to-night.—(Hear, hear.) It has not
been disputed by any oae that some assistance is neces-
sary to the western unions of Ireland; yet it has been
contended by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite that this
.assistance should not be taken from the Consolidated
Fund, that it should not be taken from the other parts
of Ireland, and that neither should it be taken from the
local districts for the support of local destitution.—
(Hear.) Now, if this aid is not to be taken from the
United Kingdom, nor from any part of Ireland, how are
the means to be obtained of saving life in Ireland ?
(Hear, hear.) The Hoe. Gentleman the Member for
Radnorshire spoke of throwing the onus on her Ma-
jesty's Government ; but I beg to remind the House
that, in considering this vote, they are voting aye or no
a subject of life and death.—(Hear, hear.) I will not
enter upon the question of a diminished area of taxation.
It may be right or wrong to change the area of taxation.
It may be desirable to make the amendments which
have been suggested in this respect, or it may not; but,
in such unions es Ballina and Westport will any dimi
nution of the area of taxation enable those unions by
any exertions they can make to support the poor
with whom they are now burdened ?—(Hear, hear.) If
that be so, I do not think the warmest advocate for the
diminution of the area of taxation would be prepared to
take upon himself the fearful responsibility of withhold-
ing all aid to the suffering and dying people of those
unions.—(Hear,) The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Limerick says that he looks to an extended system
of emigration as being calculated to benefit Ireland, but
he asks not for any vote, but that the people of Ireland
may be allowed to tax themselves for that purpose.
That may be a right view of the question. I do not
wish to enter upon its discussion now, but I again ask
whether there exist any local means in Ireland for ob-
taining the necessary hinds to effect an extended emi-
gration?
Mr. MONSELL said, that he did not refer to the
Toed resources of Ireland, but to the national resources.
Re objected that there should be a general rate in aid
towards the poor-law, but not to a rate for the purpose
of assisting emigration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The'
explanation of the Hon. Gentleman I admit removes the
force of my objection. But I still ask, does the Hen.
Gentleman believe that it is possible to raise by a rate
from the whole of Ireland a sum sufficient to support
the people in those distressed unions? Does he believe
that, from any source whatever, except that proposed by
her Majesty's Government, it is possible to preserve
life in that part of Ireland?—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon.
Gentleman, and those who take similar views with him,
tio believe that there is some other source, then they
can, with a safe conscience, oppose this grant; but if
they do not, then on the ground of humanity they are
bound to support it.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentle
man the Member for Radnorshire (Sir J. Walsh) says
there is nothing extraordinary in the state of society in
the western districts of Ireland, and has declared it to
be his belief that the sole object of the Government in
Proposing this grant is to uphold the administration of
the Irish Pour law. That appears to me to oe the most
extraordinary assertion that has ever been made in
this House.— (Hear, hear.) My conviction is that in no
part of the civilized world has such a state of society
ever existed before as at the present moment exists iu
those western districts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) I
know enough of Ireland to be aware that what is true as
to the state of one part of that country is untrue as to
another. I confine myself, therefore, to the western
districts, and I say that such a disproportiou between
the quantity of food and the population as exists in those
districts I never heard of ever having been known to
exist in any other part of the world. I admit, if you
will, that the proposal of Government is against princi-
Sle, and that it is a mere exceptional case. Why,
ir, it is merely as an exceptional case that I have
bwarosught it before the House—l did not say that tee grant
d to s
ePeort the poor-law, or that it had anything to
byo wimtheatnhsat
ofl tbeeaw,xcept that it would be administered
poorelaw machinery. But I
brought it forward believing it to be the sole means
of supporting life in those western districts. Had
I not believed so I should not have been justified in pro-
posing it. The Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Os-
borne) has distinctly said that he is against preserving
"the life of the people in those districts; that he knows
not what use these grants have been or will be. Why,
Sir, it has been shown that no less than 200,000 people
have already been preserved from death by means of
these grants.—[Mr. OSBORNE—Where are they now?]
The Hon. Gentleman says that it would have been much
better for them if their protracted misery had been put
an end te, and they had been allowed to die on the road
or hill-side. That is what the Hon. Gentleman calls a
statesmanlike view of the question. Let those who
agree with him refuse the vote. We have heard a great
deal to-night of what ought to be the comprehensive
and statesmanlike views of Ministers with regard to Ire-
land, and my Noble Friend has been reproached for not
having taken a comprehensive and statesmanlike view
of -the question. Sir, I thank God that at least we
have not taken that view of the question.—(Cheers.)
Let my Hon. Friend refer to the documents laid
before the House last year. Let him read the reports of
the Poor-law Inspector, of the Vice-Guardian, and of the
Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Clifden Union,
in which they state the numerous cases that were brought
before them from day to day of people dying by the
roadside from starvation, and of the poverty, destitution,
and crime which was continually on the increase. Let
him read the report of Mr. Phelan, the medical inspec-
tor, Which contains the most horrible accounts that it has
ever been my fate to read of the state of disease and suf-
fering to which the people of that union were exposed
solely from want of food. Such was the state of things
in the Clifden Union; and such would have been the
general state of the whole of that district of Ireland if it
had not been prevented by the benevolence of the British
Association, and the grants made by Parliament. If we
wish not to see that state of things repeated—if we are
shocked by the details contained in those reports, and
would avoid devastation and death again spreading among
that afflicted people, then I call upon the House to adopt
those means which were found effectuallastyear to arrest
the march of pestilence and famine in the land. That
is the ground upon which I ask you for this vote. I
believe it is a shame and a sin to which a Christian as-
sembly will not expose itself, that it should be respons
giblet for having condemned to death, as my Hon. Friend
is willing to do, the population of a whole district in a
portion of this United Kingdom. This I am happy to
say—that her Majesty's Government will not take upon
itself that responsibility.—(Cheers.) We have proposed
this
vote, believing that no other means can be devised
to ward off the evil we apprehend, and in proposing it
done we feel that we have doour duty before God and the
world. If you should refuse your assent to it, then, at
least, not upon us will fall the responsibility of that fear-
ful calamity, which I believe willbe the inevitable result
of such a refusal.—(Cheers.)
Mr. OSBORNE explained. He did not say that he
wished to see the people die. What he did say wa
he thought it would be much better for them Zdiet
to-
day, than to be reprieved from to-day and suffered to die
next Saturday fortnight.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
be sorry to misrepresent his Hon. Friend, but he
took down his words, and his Hon. Friend said, " that
the grants had been of no earthly use to the people, and
that he would prefer that their protracted misery should
be put an end to, and that they should be at once swept
away, rather than be dependent upon Parliamentary
grants."
Mr. DISRAELI—I concur with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking it
desirable that the attention of the House should be re-
called to the question before them. The proposition of
the Hon. Member for Stroud is, that this vote should be
-Made in the shape of a loan, and not in the shape of a
grant. Now, I am opposed to it, whether as a grant
or as a loan, and therefore I shall vote against the
amendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
has complained of any discussion of this grant being
deemed necessary, has himself so fully entered into the
eexpediency of the grant that he will pardon me if
I do not pass his observations altogether unnoticed.—
(Rear-) In questions of this kind gentlemen should
markedly note that distinction which peculiarly applies
to matters partaking partly of feeling and partly of po-
licy. There is a sentimental view of the question, and
there is a political view of it. It you make an appeal to
any Member of this House, and tel him that if he does
sot consent to some general act of humanity he will be-
come responsible for the lives of his fellow-countrymen,
there can be no doubt as to what would be the course he
would instantly take. The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
ber for Cockermouth, who has addressed us to-night
with very great ability, says that he looks upon this
measure as an appeal of a dying beggar in the streets.
the argument of the Hon. Gentleman is irresistible if
the appeal be made to himself. I can easily conceive
that a dying beggar in the streets might induce the Hon.
Member to pawn his coat to give him succour. But it
the appeal be made to the Hon. Gentleman as the repre-
sentative of the constituency of Cockermouth it then as-
sumes a very different aspect. Every Gentleman no doubt
is frequently receiving appeals to his feelings which he
finds it very difficult to resist. But what enables him to
resist those appeals? It is the stern and practical con-
clusion hat if he relieves all those who appeal to him he
will soon be under the necessity himself of appealing to
°there. And so it is in the present case. He must not
only consider the present exigency of those who are suf-
fering in Ireland, but be must consider whether he, as a
representative of the people of England, is pursuing a
course, by agreeing to the vote this night, which will
give fresh vigour to a career that may ultimately bring
not only distress but perhaps ruin upon those whom he
represents,—because, Sir, this is not a new vote proposed
on a particular occasion. The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer has just told us that if twelve months ago, some-
thing like what is proposed had not been done, you could
have no conception of the scenes of suffering and misery,
of death, vice, and crime, which must have occurred.
well, but, Sir, the Ministry hare allowed twelye

months after that stern experience to pass, and they are
frirootm yetth ipsr er
ep
saur
letd—wt
hi taht atnwye
lmv
ee anis uorne w t
hsh
hi cehn
cw i
this
lh ns s
au
yr e u p
ea us
should not be again made to us.—(Hear, hear.) I say
—for I am not ashamed to say, that comprehensive mea-
sures are needed. I caught the epithet from one
thfiosrgHetoutsheatfotrhehismaedasmuirneisstwrahtiicvhe
abilities.
.o nohive been suggested to her Majesty's Ministers by so
shall not in
high an authority have been described as comprehensive;
and I for one declare that any measures which are less
than comprehensive will not satisfy me. But, Sir, if for
a moment, leaving the sentimental view of the question,
we look at the political view of it,—if we feel it to be our
duty on this occasion to endeavour to consider the case of
this almost unprecedented state of affairs with a view to
find out the remedy it requires, it is possible we may be
led to a conclusion very different from that which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his impas'ioned
harangue, has endeavoured to impms upon the House.
The hon. Gentleman who spoke a short time ago— I
believe my Hon. Friend the Member for the University
of Dublin—has well reminded you of the ample informa-
tion which this House has long possessed the state of
Ireland, and of the frequent attempts made to draw its
attention to remedial measures for that condition. He
told you that in the year 1835 you had a Committee
upon that subject, and measures of great importance
were recommended by that Committee—a Committee
which consisted of Irish gentlemen of the highest
character and of all parties, besides English
Members of great standing, and he asked why
were not those recommendations followed ? Why,
' Sir, in the year 1835 the Ministers of the Sovereign
were pursuing measures for Ireland of a very different
tone and of a very different character. I need not
allude again to the appropriation clause, for after the
discussion the other day that subject is perhaps ex-
hausted ; but the year to which my Hon. Friend re-
ferred happened to be the year of that celebrated mea-
sure. Well, in the years 1835 and 1836 you had a
crusade raised against the House of Lords because they
were not doing justice to Ireland, and a repeal of the
union was recommended in consequence of their con-
duct. To-night I am told by the Hon. Member for
Middlesex that our neglect of these recommendations of
the numerous commissions and of Parliamentary Com-
mittees is a strong argument for a repeal of the union;
yet it is those who uttered the cry for repeal of the
union who are the very persons who have preveated
that remedial policy being carried out which we are
united in now recommending. Well, you weat on
year after year recommending mere political expedients
for the state of Ireland. Year after year you were
called upon by a powerful individual to do justice
to Ireland; and the definition of " justice to Ireland"
was assimilating the institutions of the two countries.
Well, you did assimilate the institutions—(Cries of " No,
no"—aud you got a poor-law, of which you now corn-
plain.—(Hear, hear.) Year after year the Government
of the country renewed the tenure of their power by
echoing that cry—(Cheers)—and every attempt to look
the social and material evils of the country in the face
was decried and neglected in pursuance of a policy of a
totally different character. Even now the lees of that
p 'hey still appear at a moment when the nation is in a
state of suffering and starvation by the introduction of a
measure for increasing the franchise and improving the
registration of the country—as if it were possible by
factitious measures of reform—as if it were possible by
artificial means to make men sensible of the dignity of
exercising the political franchise.—(Hear, hear.) A
nation that cannot produce men entitled to vote is
unworthy of exercising the suffrage.—(Bear, hear.)
Every one must feel that at this moment the situation
of Ireland is pressing with respect to circumstances of a
much more material character than the enjoyment and
exercise of political privileges; but you want the politi-
cal tact to introduce such measures. The cons+ quenees
your policy with respect to Ireland were aggravated and
accelerated, no dount, by the famine of which we have
heard so much, but it only precipitated a conclusion
which it wa.e impossible to avoid—the universally ac-
knowledged misery of the people. The system of political
agitation by which you attemeted to govern that country,
and which you adopted to propitiate a political party in
England, has entirely failed. True, you may say, that
Lad it not been for the failure of the potato crop for
more than one year it would not have failed; but the
fact is, that that system had taught the people to rely
on other energies than than their own, and to look for
extraordinary means to support them, to believe that
the Government of the country, relying as they did
upon the power of their leaders, must come forward and
maintain them in the moment of their suffering and de-
pression. That system has failed; and it is in vain to
come forward now with a mock reform policy of in-
creased franchise with any idea of convincing the people
of England, whatever be the political party, that these
are the means to secure the good government of Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.) Well, what is your next measure?
Do you take a lesson from the dire experience of the
past ; and do you at last attempt to grapple with the
great evils which you no longer refuse to acknowledge ?
That is not the course of Governments. The course of
Government is to come forward to acknowledge the
existence of those evils—to virtually acknowledge that
they cannot remedy them ; and to ask the people of
England to supply them with temporary exceptional
means by which they may bolster up a system which
has already broken down under them.—(Hear, hear.)
My first objection to this exceptional vote is, that it re-
lieves the Government from a responsibility which ought
to devolve on them. I feel that this is not an occa-
sion in which we ought to give time to the Government.
They have had sufficient warning in the distress of the
last three years. The very case alluded to by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of the distress twelve years back
ought to have made the Cabinet feel that they ought
never to meet Parliament again without a measure cal-
culated to control the evils which exist, and to prevent
their recurrence. I say that it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to have brought forward comprehensive mea-
sures.—(Hear.) I use the felicitous epithet of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham.)
I hope he will not desert it.—(Hear, hear.) I say it
was the duty of the Government to have matured mea-
sures respecting the subject of the area of taxation.-
-(Hear, hear.) I say they ought to have been able to
meet the question of arrears of rates, and to have intro-
duced some measure with reference to the land that has
been thrown up. These are what I call statesmanlike
and comprehensive measures.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But what shall we say to the measure before us as an al-
ternative in lieu of the measure we might have expected?
You acknowledge that it is exceptional. How tempo-
rary it is the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr.
Osborne), who calculated that it would last only a fort-
night, has already informed the House. The Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) has
told the House that a less sum than 500,0001. sterling will
not suffice fur the present year to keep life among the suf-
fering peasantry of the unions. No member of Govern-
ment has denied that calculation; and it would be diffi-
cult for any member of Government to deny the correct-
ness of the estimate, since we have a paper on the table
of the House which shows that a still larger sum is neces-
sary. The other night, when an Honourable Friend of
mine with great ability impressed upon the House
that an estimate of the expenditure ought to be laid
upon the table, we seemed hardly to be aware—the Go-
vernment did not seem to be aware themselves—that the
fatal estimate had already been furnished to us. How
ever, gentlemen can have no difficulty in finding it in
one of the papers before us, which shows that no less a
sum than 592,0001. is the calculated expense of main-
taining the population in the twenty-one su&ring unions.
When the Minister, therefore, came forward and argued
the whole case upon a siegle vote of 50,0001., he was,
unintentionally of course, palming a delusion on the
House and the country—(Hear, hear)—for it would
appear that the discussion will have to be commenced
again in a fortnight, and another vote cane,' for.—(Hear,
hear.) What will be your position at the end of the
year? Will the habits of self-reliance, which you wish
to encourage, he cherished and fostered in that short
time by your systematic doles? Who can flatter him-
self that when the next House of Commons meet at this
time next year the first recommendation of her Ma-
jesty, the first act of the Ministry, will not be another
appeal to the charity of his constituents, unless in the
interim those comprehensive measures recommended by
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon are
introduced? And what chance have you of obtaining
the introduction of those measures if you yield to the
feelings which the Hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr.
Horsmau) dilated upon—if you acknowledge that Ire-
land is to be looked upon as a dying beggar in the street,
and you propose to keep Ireland for a fortnight? What
is your charity to the people of Ireland, and what is
your justice to the people of England?—(Hear, hear.)
There is another point of view in which we ought to
consider this case. We ought to take some moral from
the past. Having entirely failed in the Government of
Ireland by a system of organized political agitation in
alliance with a political party in England we ought to
come forward and tell the people of England that we are
at last alive to our errors, and that we feel that a new
system ought to be established, and a new course of con-
duct pursued—that it is not enough to come forward and
say iu the phrases of loose rhetoric that Ireland has un-
fortunately been hitherto the battle-field of party, but
that we shall resolve henceforth that those feuds shall
cease—that those feuds shall not be fostered for the ag-
grandisement of parties in this country—that at this
moment, when the people of Ireland are softened by
affliction, we think that a happy opportunity is afforded
for reconstructing society iu that country, and that by
acting in that spirit and on that system we may produce
different results from those which we have hitherto ex-
perienced. But I ask you what chance there is of ob-
taining those results if you follow the policy which her
reajesty's Minister's now recommend to you—a policy
which is described as exceptional, when we want a
policy systematic anti permanent?—(Cheers.) If ever
there was an occasion when men who rule a great
.country should come forward and lead public opinion
to instruct the public mind, and to lay down a broad.
firm basis for a great national policy, it is this occa-
sion.—(Hear, hear.) I protest against the whole spirit
of the api cell of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—
(Hear, hear.) I felt, that when he was indulging
in an impessioued appeal to our feelings, there was some-
thing unstatesmanlike and little in the appeal.—(Cheers.)
Au embarrassed poor-law guardian might, p, rhaps, have
come forward and used such language, and indulged in
such a vein; but, after the Cabinet Councils which were
held in autumn, I had an idea that at least the subject of
Ireland had been well considered, that when we had
heard so much of their good .ortune in possessing a
Ltal-Lieutenant of such remarkable talent and experi-
ence,, at least his counsels had reached Downing-street,
and that they would have matured and laid on the table
a measure—aye, a series of measures—(Hear, hear)—
that would at last have raised the condition of Ireland to
a position in which she would no longer be the shame
of Europe and the embarrassment of England.—(Loud.
cheers). I hope that the House, notwithstanding all
that has been said, and all that has been urged by the
Government, will pause before they ratify this vote.
The Noble Lord has called it an extraordinary measure;
but my objection to this vote of 50,009/. is that it is not

an extraordinary but an ordinary measure, a vulgar
measure, a low, mean expedient of a Government who
are unable to cops with the difficulties which they are
obliged to encounter.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord,
however, has said that it is an extraordinary measure,
and that when a house is on fire you must have recourse
to extraordinary measures. Why, Sir, we don't have
recourse to extraordinary measures when our houses are
on fire. We send for the parish engine ;we don't pro-
pose a Committee of inquiry.—(Cheers and laughter.)
But when the Noble Lord's house is on fire he proposes
a Committee of inquiry.—(Renewed laughter.) That is
not the course which in my opinion ought to be pursued.
Let the responsibility, therefore, rest upon the Cabinet
which proposes such a course. But what I wish to im-
press upon the House of Commons is, that they also have
a responsibility. There have been many measures —like
the repeal of the Corn- laws, for instance, or the laws
affecting the Roman Catholics—respecting which men
may concur in the opinions of those who propose thorn,
and at the same time feel little of the responsibility of the
case. They may feel that years must elapse before
they can be called to account for the policy
they had supported and sanctioned by their votes, that
perhaps they may have ceased to be Members of the
House before the fruits of the measure had excited any
demonstration in the country. But let not Hon. Gen-
tlemen lay the flattering unction to their souls that such
will be the case in the present instance.—(Eiear, hear.)
This is a measure the effects of which they must feel and
that speedily. In a very few days, or at most a few
weeks, we may have a fresh appeal made to Parliament,
and Members will have to make a fresh appeal to their
constituents. They may in the present instance allow
the vote to pass in silence, thinking that it is only
50,000/., and that it is to save the lives of 200,000 per- I
sons. This delusion may influence them, as it has in-
fluenced the Hon. Gentleman the Alember for Cocker-
mouth, but when they find that it has saved the lives of
the 200,000 persons for a fortnight only, and that in the
course of a month a fresh appeal has been made to their
feelings and their pockets when they see that at
every fresh sacrifice they are only increasing the
evil and getting deeper into the mire, and that
ultimately, after, spending half a million, you will be
obliged to face the difficulty which you now wish to
avoid, you may depend upon it that the position of
Members of this House with respect to their con-
stituents will be anything but a comfortable one, and
that they will not be able to vindicate their vote by say.
ing that they Were actuated by sympathy for the Chan- ,
cPllor of the Exchequer.—(Hear, hear.) I hope the
House, therefore, will hesitate before they sanction this
vote. I rejoice that it has not been allowed to pass in a
cursory manner. The subject is now fairly before the
country, and slight as the sum appears, the whole ques-
tion of Ireland is bound up with it, and, unless the
House, supported by the country, makes a stand on this
occasion, I see nothing but a future of aggravated
misery for Ireland, and of impending distress even for
England herself.—(Cheers.)
Mr. RICE said, he should not vote for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Stroud, because he thought
things should be called by their right names. There
was already a strong feeling among the people of this
country against the vote, which was most distasteful to
them, and if anything could make it more so, it was to
be told that it was a loan instead of a grant, when they
well knew not one penny of it would they ever get
back.—(Hear, hear.) Instead of being the first of a
series of similar propositions, he thought, after the feel-
ing which existed in the country, it would be the last.

lord C. HA MILTON declared alas he was quite
ready to defend the Irish poor-law if it were under dis-
cussion, but he would not join in the irrelevant observa-
tions which had prevailed during the debate. The Hon.
Member for Buckinghamshire, whose eloquence touched
nothing that it did not adorn, making use of a domestic
simile, said that when a house was on fire we sent for
the fire-engine. Such a course might become th• sena-
torial dignity of the Hon. Member, who might wish to
imitate the conduct of the Roman Senate when the Gauls
entered the forum, but he (Lord C. Hamilton) believed,
in such a casualty, the most usual step was to send for
the fire-escape, by which you went down head foremost
from the fourth story.—(A laugh.) He looked upon this
measure as a fire-escape, and much .as he disliked the
attitude it compelled him to take, he would adopt it now
as the best suited to the case.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AIOORE remembered that the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, relying on his own assertions in perfect con -
tentment, declared it would be better for the unfortunate
people to starve and die of famine at once than for them
to depend on the charity of this country. It was quite
possible the Hon. Member had dined so well he could not
conceived what death by starvation was ; but he knew
❑othing of the Hon. Mmber which could induce him to
think if he (Mr. Osborne) were in the same position his
views would not be greatly modified.
Mr. OSBORNE—I said for a fortnight.
Mr. MOORE—WeII that made no difference ; the
pauper was supported day by day. The question for the
House was not whether it would be better for those
people to live or die, but whether it would be creditable
for this great and civilized country to allow thousands
of human beings to die of famine at their very thresh-
hold. The Hon. Member for Buckingham made it a
party question ; he did not care so much as to whether
100,000 Irishmen should die or live if he could but attack
the Government. Were these men to be starved because
the Government was not prepared with what the Hon.
Member thought a Comprehensive measure ; or would
he vote a grant which was bad in principle on the faith
of their promises and protestations as to future mea-
sures? For his- own part he could not think that a
squabble over the rations of starving men afforded an
auspicious opening of the Parliamentary campaign, or
was a very favourable omen of its success.—(Hear.)
Mr. P. WOOD said, he believed that small as was the
amount of the grant, it might ,be pregnant with most
fatal consequences to Ireland. England and Scotland
had not acquired their social position by such grants as•
these ; but by the exercise of honest, strenuous indus-
try. There were a number of unions in Ireland where
the landlords had most nobly performed their duty, but
if this grant once passed they would at once destroy their
energy, and, instead of having 100,000 men, they would '
have 400,000 men to feed next month.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not think so ill of the Irish gentry, many
of whom had great wealth, or the people of England,
as to believe that extreme cases, where there was
danger of starvation, would not be provided for. A re-
port had been laid on the table of the House from Cap-
tain Hamilton, on the state of the Ballina union, to in-
duce them to vote this grant. It had bad upon him a
precisely opposite effect. Captain Hamilton stated
that before next harvest time there would be 27,000 re-
quiring relief in that union, of whom 4,300 were able-
bodied men, whose families amounted to 14,000; and of
these able-bodied poor he declared .that, with some ex-
ceptions, they were lazily inclined, and would do nothing
for themselves as long as they could get others to do it
for them.—(Hear.) Now, he would ask the House, was
it to serve those able-bodied men, who would "do as
little as possible," that they wore to vote this grant?—
(Hear.) The curse of Ireland was reliance on England.
It was more than a century ago since Bishop Berkeley
had published his " Queries," among which there were
three especially significant at the present day—" When
shall we be able to teach our people of Ireland to live on
their own industry?" "To whom does the fable of Her-
cules and the waggoner apply as it does to the people of
Ireland?" and, " Whose fault, then, is it if the poor of
Ireland remain poor?"—(Hear.)
Colonel DUNNE deprecated the use of such expres-
sions as had fallen from the Hon. Member for Cocker
mouth (Mr. Horsman), that he would give this grant as
he would alms to a beggar in the street. It was a case
of absolute necessity; the people must die if no interpo-
sition took place. The whole question was, whether the
means of relief should come from the Imperial treasury,
or from Ireland alone. Supposing a tax were proposed
on the rateable property of Ireland alone, why should
'lreland support the impoverished districts more than
England? •' Are we one country," exclaimed the Hon.
and Gallant Member, " or are we not?"—(Hear, hear.)
Everything depended on the radius which was taken. If
he went beyond his own estate, was it with the province,
the anion, the country, they were to stop? He said the
empire.:--(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORL expressed his intention of voting
against the grant.

Mr. HUME thought the question bad been well put—
" What was the want of Ireland?" It was employment.
Would this small grant give employment and promote
the healthy action required to restore that country?
Would the Government be able to state, when this money
was exhausted, what was to stimulate the industry of
Ireland in order to produce that employment which the
Hon. Member for the University of Dublin had properly
allowed to be the great want of Ireland?
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Member for Oxford
has objected to this vote, and places his decision very
much on the ground of the report of Captain Hamilton,
the inspector of Bailin% The Hon. Member who has
just spoken has also objected because he thinks that em•
ployment ought to be given, and that refusing this vote
would induce employment. On the contrary, Captain
Hamilton said, in the first place, that the landlords are
generally unable to give employment, and in the second
place, that the labourers are scarcely able to work; and
he puts to the Commissioners what would be the conse-
quence of immediately striking a rate. Ho says:—
" The striking of another rate under present circum-
stances would have the effect of extinguishing the little
hope that is still to be found in the union. The few
landlords who are giving employment would come to a
stand-still. In the next place, a rate could only be col-
lected by tedious legal proceedings, and by the time it
had become available the poor would have ceased to
exist." if there be any Hon. Members who expect that
refusing this vote will be the means to give employ-
ment, they have at least the authority of Captain Hamil-
ton against such a supposition.—(Cheers,)
Mr. P. SCROPE stated that he would not trouble the
House to divide on his amendment.

Sir W. BARRON moved the adjournment of the
debate.

The House divided, and the numbere were—
For the adjournment
Against it
Majority —l67
- _

Lord DUDLEY STUART then proceeded to ad-
dress the House. He had never approached a subject
on which he found it so difficult to come to a conclu•
sion as the present; involving, as it did, the lives of a
great body of the Irish people, and the interests or
many important constitue❑cies in this country. Ile
felt, however, that he could not object to the present
hd ranee of the sum proposed by Government,
only he would propose to advance it in a very different
manner from that advocated by her Majesty's Ministers.
He thought the House should endeavour to combine jus-
tice with economy. He thought the proposal of the
Hon. Member for Stroud illusory, but that his own
would be found to have a practical effect. He did not
expect the return of a farthing from the unions of Ire-
land to which these sums were advanced ; but, consider-
ing bow the poor-rates of this . country had been
increased by the influx of Irish pauperism, he thought
that the local distress of Ireland should be borne by the
property of Ireland. He was the more disposed to