The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-27 00:00:00

to the amendment, it appeared to him that the Minister of the
Crown was giving the question the go-by.—( Cheers. )
Lord MAIDSTONE said, in reply, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come for-
ward and appeared on the present occasion to insinuate that
be was unprepared fur a future course in the event of his suc-
ceeding to press the question to a division and obtaining a
1.
majority. Now he was not at all unprepared. He should
be guided by the precedents which were to be fouad in the
best times of the Parliament. He alluded to the times of
Adams, Ponsonby, and Pitt—(Hear, bear)--and according to
those precedents he would have the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin reprimanded in his place in the House. He
did not wish to punish the Hon. and Learned Member any
further than that, and certainly not to adopt the plan men-
tioned by the Noble Lord of raising him to the dignity of a
political martyr. There was one remark he wished particu-
larly to make with respect to the speech of the Noble Lord. It
was the assertion of the Noble Lord that the people would not
hear that Mr. O'Connell should be made a political martyr.
Let him on the other hand remember—
" Justum et tenacem propositi virum
Non eivium ardor prava jubentium,"
and let Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side reflect that, if
they chose to follow the Noble Lord in whatever path lie chose
to lead them they would at last be led where they would not
at all like to follow him.—( Loud cheering and laughter.)
The House then divided, when there appeared for the
amendment moved by Lord Howick—
Noes 253
Ayes 254
Majority against Ministers 9
[The announcement of the numbers was received with loud
and repeated cheers.]

The original question was then put from the Chair, and
Mr. HUMB rose, and said that after the decision of the
House he would not address them but to deny entirely the
right of that House to interfere.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh 1")
If speeches delivered in any part of the country were to be
interfered with he did not know where the power of the
House was to end.' He deeply regretted that he had not risen
before to oppose the motion, which he should have done but
that his Hon. and Learned Friend might, he considered, have
thought that it was intended as a screen. Mr. O'Connell
would not, of his honour as a gentleman—( Loud laughter)__
there deny what he had previously said.
Mr CALLAGHAN was very unwilling to trespass on the
House, but he felt it his duty to say that, however much he
might disapprove of expressions uttered in private not suited
to ears polite, yet lie thought it a different thing when intro-
duced in a speech upon a political subject. Still ho entirely
coincided in the opinion of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin.—( Loud cheering, and cries of " Chair.") He
adopted those opinions.—(Renewed cheering, and cries of
" Chair," and " Order.")
The SPEAKER said that it was his duty to call to the
mind of the Hon. Member that, the main question being over,
whether the language he was now using was not calculated to
Provoke further aggression in the opponents of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin.

Mr. CALLAGHAN trusted he should pay the respect due
to the Chair and the House, but as an independent Member be
tvoeld not be intimidated by any vote of that House from
saying that if such a system was persisted in there would be no
end to the tyranny. Although they might not enter into the
feelings expressed at the dinner he could not help saying there
was an end to independence if a tribunal could be erected
Within the walls of Parliament to impugn what took place
elsewhere. He did not know what the ulterior views of the
Gentlemen opposite might be, but he would repeat that he
agreed in the sentiments expressed by the lion. and Learned
Member for Dublin.--( Loud cheers, and cries of " Chair,"
again interrupted the Hon. Member.) He could suppose a
ease that if, by any vote of that House, an Hon. Member was
Consigned to an ignominious punishment—were sent to New-
gate or the Fleet, or any other abominable prison—(Laughter)
--he did declare that his sentiments were—
The conclusion of the Hon. Member's sentence was lost
amid renewed cries of " Chair," when
~The SPEAKER again recalled to the recollection of the
-um Member that he was acting disrespectfully towards the
House in continuing to assert what the House had by a vote
declared to be a breach of privilege.
Mr. CALLAGHAN felt strongly upon the subject, and
ork one so important he insisted upon claiming his privilege of
speech, and saying that he adopted to the utmost every letter
and, every expression of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin—( Chair, chair)—and defied the power of the Houso
t• put down the expression of opinion.
Mr. ROCHE, as the Representative of one of the largest
constituencies in Ireland, although he would submit with all
due deference to the Chair and that House, must say ho
entirely concurred in the sentiments of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin—( Cries of " Chair")—and he should
think he neglected his duty to his constituents if he did not
express that opinion.
Mr. GILL ON should take care that the House divided on
the resolution, and he begged to reiterate the sentiments of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He treated with
no respect the decision of that House, and he was sure that it
would not meet with respect from the country.—(Choers, and
Chair.") The country was in favour of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin.--(" Oh, oh," from the Opposi-
tion.) That House had attempted to gloss the nutter over;
het they might just as well attempt to stem the waves by
"tending on the sea-beach, as to check the torrent of public
which was with the Hon. and Learned Member. The
et,74e might come to what resoltions it pleased, but the public
vrernf doors would believe notwithstanding that its decisions
4,c.e.Ruided by a party feeling.—( Hear.) And certainly no
efr 's'on which would take place that night would have the
:et of altering public opinion.
„ dr• SOMERS gave his most cordial concurrence to the
"ions expressed by Mr. O'Connell.—(Cries of " Oh, oh,"
"d on
" Divide.")
th Mr. BROTHERTON rose to move the adjournment of
House. (It was then about half-past ten o'clock.)
The gallery was cleared for a division, but it was not closed
before strangers were recalled.
On our return we found
Lord J. RUSSELL on his legs. It certainly appeared to
fie (continued the Noble Lord) to be the better course for the
douse to adopt not to entertain the question at all ; but the
;Ouse has overruled my opinion. It has decided upon enter-
`ning the question, and it has, moreover, voted the expros-
tns used by Mr. O'Connell contained a scandalous impute-
(l°° On it. Mr. O'Connell, no doubt, had avowed the words
foul perjury," and made them, therefore, his own. The
remaining question being now that these words amount to
4 breach of the privileges of the House, I feel but called
°nen to say that it is a proposition to which I cannot refuse
t assent.—( Cheers.) I might take the method proposed
Y the Honourable Member for Salford if I chose, and
linssibly get out of the matter in that manner, but as the
ense of this House has been taken on the main question,
t
see no use in disputing the corollary to it.—(Hear, hear.)
may be permitted to add one word more. I by no
eans regret the vote which I have given to-night
?ph the subject—( Cheering from the Ministerial benches.)
great danger pointed out by Hon. Gentlemen opposite—
indeed the only danger pointed out at all in connection with
thel question—is, that if we did not censure Mr. O'Conanell's
words on the occasion the charge of perjury would be reite-
rated and reiterated against us. Such is the danger we had
I°l avoid according to them ; but, as far as I can perceive, the
Several
thy trying to avoid it, has completely incurred it.
the Hon. Members have already said that they concur in
'tie truth of the expressions made use of by Mr. O'Connell.—
(Cheers.) Does that look like attaining the end the
0,11,e seems to have had in view ?—( Hear, hear.) The
'noble Lord opposite will, after this resolution, take the course
he thinks most proper—( Cheers from the Opposition)—but in
y opinion, the effect to be produced by the course he can
take is negatived by the result of this division. Though
1,
4°5. Gentlemen opposite have the majority I cannot see that
they have at all gained the object which they profess to have
ti°,lliht•—( Cheers from both sides of the House.) I am per-
ts'etly sensible that this House has been always very sensitive
en the subject of privileges, but I am still of opinion that that
Privilege is safest when least exercised.—( Hear.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN bogged the House and the public
Would take a note of the proceedings that night. lion. Nlem-
hers had heard the Catholic Members of that House charged
4,1/ith perjury day afterthey had heard tho Hon. Member
Liskeard also charge them with perjury ; and yet they
had not the courage to resist in the one case, or the magnani-
Illlty to come forward on the other. It was done in neither
e,,ase: but it was done now because the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin was hated by them.—( Great laughter,
444 cries of " Oh, oh I") He (Mr. Grattan) know those
election Committees—( Laughter)—though he had never sat
liduY of thorn. " Hour after hour have I attended them,"
the Hon. Member, "but so help me God," he added,
'II' I have uniformly seen in them decisions which I tell the
1„ °llse to its face were not those of honest men."—(Great
,v'eghtor, cheers, groans, and cries of " Question.") He
,°„11,,1d say it to their face, and he would mention names if
needed Loud cries of " Name, name," from the Opposi-
-4-:° side of' the House.) He would state one fact. He had
oie,n,_ a letter written by a witness living within thirty yards
'flat House to the Tory chairman of an election Committee,
tsi';''!ris leave to come down to see a sick child ; but it was re-
ofieu ; and because he went without leave his vote was struck
en---(Cries of " Oh, oh.") He (Mr. Grattan) had seen
,ollengh of the conduct of Hon. Gentlemen opposite not to
tleel"' in the statement expressed on his side of the House.
had seen too much of them not to see that they were
emit Irish Members on all occasions, because they were
1)1'11144"u. The proceedings of the Noble Lord were wretched
h5ll proceedings. If the Noble Lord had read but a single
1:d of Parliamentary history he would at once have perceived
II it nullity.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Question," the
ei °Lord 'se manifesting much impatience in the meanwhile.)
MAIDSTONE was seen to nod his head coolly and
11ineently at the Hon. Member.
triu,e SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member for Meath
ehi•",oe aware, open consideration, that he was using language
was not Parliamentary.—( Cheers.)
the
e• GRATTAN explained. What he meant was not that
leth"nrse pursued by the Noble Lord was one inconsistent
uia personal courage—No, God forbid I—but that it was
th,rni,consistent with comon sense and the proceedings of
le,r` rlouse.—( Laughter.) It %yrs political courage, and not
Cotsonal courage, that he alluded to. He (Mr. Grattan) did
thr, "me there to throw out challenges to any Hon. Member,
sol,,gh some Hon. Members, particularly the Hon. Member
11. Ltriverness, had done so to the Catholic Members, that
te."t•---(Clieers and laughter.) But why bring forward the
therm motion ? Why not bring forward on a former occasion
o,tion made against the lion. Baronet the Member for
1„:1°14 on a parallel subject? Why single out the Hon. and
•arned Member for Dublin? It was the duty of every
rish, .
h,(l en in that House to follow up the other charge which
&e, been made upon them as members of the Cathoic roll-
lie (Mr. Grattan) would sit down, not repeating the

words of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, but he
would say that the Committees had not done their duty as
honest men.—(Laughter.) He should not adopt the word
perjury in designating their proceedings, but he should go as
near to it as ever he could —( Laughter, and cries of Question.)
Mr. BROTHERTON said that if it was the pleasure of
the House, as it seemed to him to be, he should withdraw his
motion for adjournment; at the same time ho considered that
to adopt it would be much more consistent with the honour
and dignity of the House.
The amendment for adjournment was understood to be with
drawn, and it was also understood that the division on the re
lution was passed by Mr. Gillen.
The gallery was then cleared for a division.
admission the numbers were as follow :
For the resolution 293
Against it.....
Majority

On our re.

Lord MAIDSTONE (who was heard rather imperfectly
in consequence of the noise caused by the influx of Hon.
Members into the body of the House and strangers into the
galleries) was understood to move that Mr. O'Connell be re-
primanded in his place in the House.
Mr. MAUNSELL seconded the motion in a few words,
which were wholly inaudible.
The motion was put from the Chair, and the scene which
ensued was of a most animated character.
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said—l cannot believe
for a moment that the Noble Lord means seriously to ask the
House to agree to thts motion.—(Great cheering from both
sides of the House.) He has told us that be had precedents
to show that a Member of this House, found by an impartial
Jury of the House, to have abused other Hon. Members,
had been reproved in his place in this House. If the Hon.
Member for Montgomery has any other precedents to add to
them, let him state them, tho House can then postpone the
further consideration of the question until they have further
time to examine it in all its bearings, and see what course
consistent with justice it shall pursue in this case.--( Hear.)
For my own part, I do not consider that, having pro-
nounced the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin guilty of
a scandalous charge against the Houso, having therewith
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's own open avowal of
it besides, I cannot but consider, I say, after these things, if
the course we pursue be to reprimand him in his place, that
it seems to me the most shabby one—(Great cheering from the
Ministerial Benches)—the most faint-hearted, pusillanimous
course possible to be taken.—(Renewed cheers from the same
qvarter. ) If it was a miserable and unfortunate printer, earn-
ing hardly his daily bread, how soon we should send him to
prison, by way of showing our severity and our justice.
But the Hon. Member for Dublin is too formidable for you—
( Cheers)—he is too formidable to be so dealt with.—(lronical
cheers from the Opposition.) You have screwed up your
courage to propose a resolution against him—( Cheers)--
which some hundreds of Members in this House laugh at and
despise as so much waste paper; and yet the result of all this
mighty expenditure of power is to reprimand him in his place.
—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Who is there in
the Houso that does not know in his heart that this charge of
perjury will be reiterated ?—( Cheers.) When the Noble
Lord opposite adopted the course he has taken he should have
been prepared to follow it out to the full. I do not know where
the Noble Lord meant I should lead my followers when he
alluded to me not long since; but I must say that the Noble
Lord himself has led his own followers into one of the most
painful and pitiable situations possible to be conceived.a—
-( Cheers and laughter.) A situation where their only excuse
for not going further was that the extreme folly of having ven-
tured so far was beyond the power of being repaired.—(Cheers
from the Ministerial benches.)
Mr. WYNN said that, as the Noble Lord had asked him to
state the precedents on which he founded his opinions, he
could mention one in which General Burgoyne, supported by
Pitt and Fox, and one of the Noble Lord's ancestors, com-
plained of Major Scott, one of the managers in the case of
the accusation of Warren Hastings, for having uttered mali-
cious and scandalous accusations against its Members. The
House found Mr, Scott guilty, and a debate took place on
General Burgoyne's motion that he be committed to the cus-
tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, when Mr. Pitt, in conjunction
with the Noble Lord's ancestor, advocated the more moderate
course of inflicting the censure of the House upon Major
Scott. The motion of General Burgoyne was in conclusion
withdrawn, and the culprit called to te bar, and reprimanded
accordingly.—( Cheers.) Another case was that of Sir Francis
Burdett, in which it was proposed to commit him to the
Tower ; but an amendment was proposed that he should he
reprimanded at the bar of the House, a course which he (Mr.
Wynn) advocated, and in which he was supported by the pre-
sent Speaker, by Mr. Ponsonby. and a number of others,
whom the Hon. Gentlemen opposite would bow to as the first
authorities.—( Cheers. )

Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that, when he compared the
pompous exordium of that night's Troceeding with its pitiful
termination, he was forcibly reminded of the mountain and the
mouse. If they had moved to commit the Honourable Mem-
ber it would have been at least an open and manly course; but
this motion would only place the subject in a more ludicrous
light ; and he begged to ask what they would do if he should
declare he was just of the same opinion still ?—(Laughter.)
He would beg leave to mention a passage which he saw in the
correspondence of the Limerick Chronicle about three weeks
since, a paper with which an Hon. Member was intimately
connected :—" I am sorry to inform you that we have lost
Salford and Roxburgh, but we gain Ipswich."—(Laughter.)
He had doubted the truth of these prophecies at first ; but
that day the third had been realised.,—( A laugh.) He should
not now think it discreet, with the reprimand hanging over
him, to express any opinion of his own. Great honour cer-
tainly might be gained by going to Newgate or the Tower ;
but with merely a reprimand in prospect, he should decline to
utter them.

Mr. BR AM STONE had sat on the Ipswich Committee,
and knew that it had given the subject a most patient hear.
ing, full consideration, and faithful decision. It was, how-
ever, impossible for the House to judge of the matter without
being put in possession of the facts ; and if the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite would more for the evidence he would second
the motion.(

Mr. BARRON said that the whole point in the debate
turned on whether the parish constables had a r;ght to vote at
elections or not. At a former election Committee a Tory
Committee had decided that they had; and now they had de-
cided directly to the contrary, to suit their own purposes and
serve their friends in both cases.

Mr. BRA NISTONE again offered to second any motion for
producing the evidence.
Mr. HUME would move, that as the Hon. Members for
the city and county of Cork, for the Sligo borough, and the bo-
rough of Falkirk, had avowed that they had adopted the senti-
ments and expressions of the Hon. Member for the city of
Dublin theylhad all been guilty of a breach of privilege, and
were deserving of reprimand.—( A laugh )
Mr. WYNN rose to order. It was perfectly impossible
that any exception could be taken to the words of any Member
except at the moment he uttered them.
Air. D. CALLAGHAN rose amidst loud laughter. He
had not taken any part in the proceedings out of the House,
but when lie found the freedom of debate likely to be inter-
fered with he felt himself bound to state that he adopted, to
the full, all the opinions.
The SPEAKER called on the Hon. Gentleman to consider
whether what was about to do was quite decorous and in
keeping with the expressed sense of the House.—( Cries from
the Ministerial side, " It is quite decorous.")
Mr. CALLAGHAN shared in the sentiments of the Hon.
Member for Dublin, and adopted his expressions to the word
and letter.—( Laughter.)
Mr. HUME moved that the words of the Hoe. Member be
taken down.—(Laughter.)
Mr. CALLAGHAN then repeated slowly, amidst con-
tinued cheers and laughter, his recognition and avowal of the
expressions attributed to Mr. O'Connell in the two publica-
tions already laid on the table.
Mr. HUME then read his report of the Hon. Member's
avowal, and concluded by moving that the Hon. Member was
guilty of a breach of privilege.
The SPEAKER said that the question before the House
must be decided before any other which had arisen inciden-
tally in the debate could be entertained. The amendment was,
therefore, quite irregular, and could not be put.
Mr. HUME then withdrew his amendment, and moved the
adjournment of the House till to-morrow (this day) to afford
time for consideration.

Mr. HENRY GRATTAN wished to amend the motion of
censure on Mr. O'Connell by the addition of the words—
" Notwithstanding the Members for Sligo, Liskeard, and Fal-
kirk, had adopted the sentiments of the Hon. Member for
Dublin."—(A laugh.)
The SPEAKER said the motion for adjournment must
hare precedence.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority —B7
On our re-admission to the gallery we found
Mr. C. BULLE R moving the adjournment of the further
consideration of the question until this day, He gave the
Noble Lord every credit for the favourable position in which
he had put the House before the country ; and certainly after
the figure the House had cut that eight it was impossible that
any man could doubt that the Committees of that House were
influenced in their decisions by the purest motives and by
those admirable feelings which the Noble Lord had „osta-
blished to the glory of the character of the House. He did
not say that he always concurred in the use of such strong
language as was often used. But if such language was to be
brought before the House, he must certainly bring under its
consideration the language used that night by the Right Hon.
and Learned Member for Ripon. That Right Honourable
and Learned Gentleman had, with the utmost calmness and
mildness, used language the most derogatory to the character
and honour of that House. He had said that Committees
were influenced by party motives. He (Mr. Buller) knew
not exactly to what party in degree of punishment he might
himself belong, but whether he belonged to the Newgatc or
the Tower party he would certainly wish to have the Right
Hon. Member for Ripon with him.—( Laughter.) The Hon.
Member concluded by moving the adjournment of the question
to this day.
Sir R. PEEL said that from long experience he knew the
inutility of entering upon a contest in a question of adjournment
of this kind, and after the expression of the sense of the House
on the decision which had recently taken place he would not
oppose the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member.
The further consideration of the question was then ad-
journed to this day, and the Orders having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at Half. past Twelve o'Clock.

During the course of the present winter the Ham-
bnrgh papers have paid a high compliment more than once to
the exertions made by the Post-office authorities in London
in respect of forwarding the mails to the Continent, especially
to the north of Europe.