The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

N.

NAVY FIVE PER CENTS BILL.

Mr. LUSIIINGTON moved the Order of the Day for the
further consideration of the Report of the Navy Five per Cents,
which being accordingly read,
Mr. LUSHINGTON then moved that the Bill be recom-
mitted.

Mr. TIERNEY said, he could see no reason why they
should not then proceed with the Report. He had some ob-
servations to make on the subject, and was then willing to pro-
ceed. •

LUSHINGTON said he felt unwilling, to lake the
business on himself, in the absence of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ; but if it was the pleasure of the House, he would
go on. .

sir. TIERNEY said that he had some suggestions to offer
on the claUses of the Bill, which could not be so well dis-
cussed in a Committee. Ile was very sorry to give' any in-
terruption to the progress of the business, but a sense of
duty compelled him to trouble the House with a statement
of his reasons for objecting to some clauses in the Bill. He
regretted that the Right Ho.? the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was not in the House. There was one objection to the
Bill, which was started by an Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
and which had not certainly occurred to himself before.
That objection was , with respect to the power which the Par-
liament had, by the Act of 1797, over the Five per- Cents
in the way of reducing the interest, or paying them off,
until 55,000,0001. of the National Debt had been redeemed.—
That objection did not occur to himself ; but he eonfewei
that, since it was starred; the more he considered its the
more doubt and difficulty he felt in coming to any decision
on it. The Act of 1797 had filde provision for different
kinds of stock. It provided for some in the Three per cents,
some in ,the Four per Cents, and fur some in the Five per Cents.
By that Act the 3 and 4 per Cents might be at any time re-
deemed, but the five per Cents were not to be paid' off until
55,000,0001. of the National Debt had been first redeemed
and paid off'. He was not able to give any opinion on th4t
point himself, but he would suggest it to the consideration
of the House,
,by whom it ought to be noticed, and not passed

PRICE SEVENPENCt.

by sub •silentio. In considering the enactments. of that Bill,
he was well aware it would be contended, in reply to that ob.
jection, that .E much larger stun had been redeemed and paid
off since that- period. He was aware that the Sums redeemed
by the Cdinmissioners for redeeming the National Debt would
be said to be paid off'; • but the surer standing in the 'names of
the Commissioners 'mild not be said to be paid off.. they
were paid off, they world be at the disposal of :Parliiinent.
But the Debt redeemed by the Com Missioners. was not; he ap-
prehended, at the disposal of Parliament, within the spirit and
Meaning of the Act of 1797, The words " paid- OW .struck
him the more, because he could not call the stock redeerhed by
the Commissioners " paid. off." He admitted that he had no
distinct knowledge of that objection, but he was of Opinion that
the House ought to explain it. But the plan proposed for pay.
,•ing off the holders of that stock was objectionable on different
grounds. In Sir. Pelham's time, wnoin the'Right HOn. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer professed to imitate, the holders
of the stock which he wished to reduce had the choice of being
paid off accordlng to the aereemmt originally made at the
creating of that stock. The Right Hon. Gentleman then. went
into a history of that transaction, and contended that no holder
was then paid off but according to the terms of the original
agreement. He himself would give no opinion upon tLee prin-
ciple of the plan, for he had none to give. He did not wish
any observations he could niake to excite any false hopes tin Jog',
the country, but .he thought the House should consider it.
But it was absurd to compare the present plan with-the plan
of-Mr. Pelham. He had adverted to the .history of that trans-
action, and he found nothing more dis Similar. -It was sug-
gested in the King's Speech to his Parliament that they
should be watchful to improve any opportunity of putting
the National Debt into a method of being reduced, with a
strict • regard. to public . faith and private, property. • 'the Ad-
dress of the House was, of course, a re-echo of the. King's
Speech. Mr. Pelham soon after brought in his Bill, which
held out no threat, no compulsion, but even invited the hold-
ers to a choice of taking their money .or the new 'stock at
the reduced interest. He proposed that those who were
holders of the 4 per Cent. should, if they thought proper to
assent to the plan, have 4 per Cent. for one year; which was
1750, and should have 3il per Cent for seven years after—
namely, to 1757, their stock to be irredeemable during that pe-
riod ; but they were to have only 3 per Cent. from 1757 out.
Mr. Pelham made the proposal to the holders to that effect,
without compulsion or threat ; • and by giving_ seven years until
he should come to the reduced rate of interest, Mr. Pelham
meant to let down the holders as easily as possible from the high
rate of interest, which was very. different from the plan pro-.
posed by the Right Hon. Gentlethan. He, however,- did not
mean to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman was doing any
thing illegal. All persons purchasing in the. 5 per Cents. should
have known that that stock was liable t.) redemption ; but, not.
withstanding that, he could not hut regret the situation in
which they were placed, in respect to the short period which
was to be given them to make a choice. - Mr.. Pelham gave
three months to the holders of the 4 per Cents. in.hiS time, to
consider whether they would assent to his proposal or not.
A t the end of that period, a large proportion of the holders came
in and assented, but the large companies (the South Sea Corn.
parry and the East India Company) still held out. To those
Hr. Pelham said that it- was not right they should have the
same advantages as those who declared their 'assent in time.—
He accordingly refused them the same time which he gave the
other holders, and he allowed _them but five years' notice of
being paid off. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer; acting in
a very different manner, gave notice, that if the holders did not
signify their dissent within Di days, he would considek them to
have assented. The Right Hon. Gentleman told them that they
might dissent if they would, within-that time, but; if they were
not within that time, they were to be taken to have assented—
.(Hear hear); which certainly appeared to him a very strange
method of proceeding. lie (Mr. Tierney) was as anxious as
any man for reducing the interest of the debt,.if it would lead
to a diminution of the burdens of the country. He had the
same interest in reducing the interest of the Public Debt as any
other; but he thought that they should act With justice in
bringing about that event. The Right • Honourable Gentle.
man the Chanceirear of the Exchequer proposed "frat " every
holder must give -a direct answer on or before the 16th of
the present month ;". and he adds, " if you don't say 4 No,'
within that tine, you are to be considered to say ' Aye.' "
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)--But there was another clause in
the Bill, with regard to Ireland, more etraordiiii.ry than the
clause he. was commenting on. The clause. stated that per.
sons possessed of debentities there might :be at liberty to
convert them into 5 per Cent. Annuities; and if they did not
within the time limited signify their dissent, ' they were pre-
sumed to take the 4 per Cents. Such a case no one ever heard.
A man who held only a debenture, and no. snick at all, would
have his debenture cancelled, and 'be obliged to take the re-
duced interest. But the strongest objection, and the most seri-
ous grievance which all Telt, was the new mode o compelling
the assent of the holders. Some Gentlemen-- in that House
were in, the habit of complimenting the Chancellor. of the Ex-
chequer en his dexterity. If any praise was due to the Right
lion. Gentlernai4 certainly it wes not on the score of financial
arrangements or money transactions.. • Bait iii twelve days those
who-dissented were required to give their answer.. Some per.
sons were so ready and se' conversant in none transactions,
that they would reqUire very little • tithe- to make up their
minds. • But the greater part of the holders of tha,Lstock could
not so readily come to a determination. A poor person, who
had an annuity of 1001 , or 2001,; or 2501., was, to lose one.
fifth of that sum before he could determine Wheilier it would
be more advisable to assent or dis Sent. Ile ivoirid endeavour
to show sufficient reason for granting more. time, always as.
sliming, on the part- of that Horse, --that "the.f. meant to act
fairly, and that it was not intended to take any onQby surprise;
for, if that was not intended, time enough migbybe afforded.
Who could. say what would be the result of the reported die.
ferences between the Coon of Petersbrirgh and the Ottoman
Porte ? Ile would' call-their attention to 014 part of his Ma-
jesty's Speech which adverted to his interferetcein those dif.
ferences, and his hopes that .he could bring then to an amica-
ble adjustment. In the very first paragraph, of 11;s. Majesty's
Speech he addressed his Parliament thus

" I have the satisfaction of informing you that f continue to
receive from Foreign Powers the 'strongest assurances of their
friendly dispositions towards this country.
" It is impossible for me- not to feel deeply interested in
any event that may have a tendency to disturb .the peace of
Europe. My .endeavours have therefore been directed, in
conjunction with my Allies, to
...the. settlement of the differ-
ences which have unfortunately. arisen between the Court of
St. Petersburgh and the -Ottoman Porte ; and I have reason
to entertain hopes that . these diffcrenceS will be satisfactorily
adjusted."
Thus it was clear there were some differences, and that there
wes a negotiation on foot for the adjUstment of those differences.
All knew what effect that' eircumStantehad on the funds. In
the midst of that negotiation two months should be granted in
order to know the. result of these negotiations. Ile meant no.
thing disrespectful to, any person, but unless time were given,
the thing seemed no better than swintiling. If no injury could
result from-the delay, he could not conceive the cause of hurry.
ing the Bill.. It could,not.be denied also, that the operation of
the Sinking rand had no inthience on the stocks. But the
mode of operation by that tines not yet known. When the Noble
Lord (Londonderry) was asked what he meant by the pre.
sent Sinking Fund,- the Noble Lord replied he would answer
when that Bill was Passed.—(llear, hear !)—Did the Noble
Marquis mean to adhere to the 'Resolution of the house in
1819, to hold a Sinking Fund
,of 5,000,0001. accumulating at
compound interest ?' But if' he did'hot, then ,bc had no Sinking
Fund. They talked Of.,.Fiyin,;,; off the dissentients, and that in
a measure very different from -Mr. Pelhain's plan; They were
to be paid off numerically, and in aonanner to be left open for
the consideration of Parliament. If the holder. dissented, he
would have a mark at his back ; he would; perhaps, have his
1001. on the day following, or would be- paid as Parliament
would settle after. At all. events the dissentients would be
numbered, and would be marked for the indignation and wrath
of the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He (Mr.
Tierney) argued the question on the broad principle; he was not
going into the details of the Bill. :Ththoughthe had made on
a case to the satisfaction of the House for granting more time.
Some decision should be come to between Russia and the Otto.
man Empire. Besides that, the high rate of interest was tiS be
paid until July. ' That was a material point. No saving would
be gained to the public. All the holders were:to have the five
per cent. interest until July. Nothing cMild be gained to
the public by hurrying the Bill then, and :unless N)inisters
had some feelin that something would Nippen to after the
value of the stock, they need not refuse to give time. It could
not be at present a matter -of surprise that persons would be
desirous of waiting the event of the pending negnciations be.
tween. Russia and Turkey. He could enlarge on those points,
put he feared he occupied the attention of the House too long.
The points he wishect.to be considered; -ere the. first objection