The Sun.
London, England, 1807-03-05 00:00:00

R. 1-v I NDHANI.

Sir JOHN ,HIPPISLEY,Tursuant to his notice,
rose to' Move, that the Order tor taking Mr. Secretary
vVindham into the custody of the Serjeant at Arms
be. discharged., But before he should submit his
Notion to the -House, he thought it proper first to.
mate, that in addition to what he alledged on the
preceding day, namely, that Mr, Windham had left
town to exercise an. important franchise, he hal also
very urgent private. business to attend, to. • The
Right Hon. Gentleman too, in leaving -town; dad..
mentioned these circumstances to a ,Noble I.,Ord,•one
et his Colleagues, who had forgotten them when that
Gentleman was ordered into the custody of the Ser-
jl int. If he bad stated so much yesterday, when .
the name of his Right Hon. Friend was called, he
w is confident be would ,bave been excused on
these grounds. He then move_ d that the Order be
cischarged.
Mr. CANNING would readily consent to the
discharge of the Order on good cause assigned, but
thought it impossible, for the House to agree to the'
Motion on the Hon. Gentlematis own shewing,,flt
a time when every Gentleman was peremptorily :
called upon to attend in his place. If be understood
the Hon. Gentleman's statement, the' Right Hoim.
Gentleman had no urgent private business-when'he';
left town, but had foUnd it by 'the way, in going to

exercise ell important constitutional franchise. That-
Right Hon. Gentleman had gone to eleft one Mem-
ber, who might go to ele& another, and he another,
and-so .on; 11 such 'an excuse a that then offered
were to be adfiitted. But a supplementary excuse
had been.adcled, namely, that the Right Hon.; Gen-
tleman had informed a Noble Lord, one of his Col-
leagues, of his leaving town. If that Noble Lord
was a Member of the other House of Parliaintn,t,
what had they to do with it..;..and if hel.ves....a.Metn-,
ber of that House, the Noble Lord had shewn hoW
little he thought of the validity of the encase, -by
his having, omitted to urge it when the name bf his
Right Honourable Friend had been called. On Oleic
grounds he thought the. Motion ought not toibe ae-
lcea6d to. • 1
Mr. WHITBREAD left it to the House to deter-,
mine the value of the excuse that had•been offered
for his Right'Hopouroble Friend -bet agreed with
the Right Honourable Gentleman who had just sat
dciWn, that it: was not sUfficient, and that' the
-House could not well order any Gentleman here-
after into: custody, if this excuse were to be admitted.
'Lord H. Pe'rTy.agreed with his Hon Friend, that
the reasons suggested . were not sufficient to- justify
the.:. House in discharging the Order; and Observed,'
that the course that should have been pursued by his
Right Hon. Friend was, to authorise some person •
to snake application to the. House for leave of ab-

sence.
FELLOWES follOwd On the same side, when
the Motion wasnegatived without a division.
Sir J. NEWPORT_ obtained. leave: to bring in a
Bill for the better Regulation of the Collection of
- Duties on House's &c. in Ireland.
Ordered, on the Motion of Sir JOHN NEWFORT,
that there be laid before the
.Hou,ie.ati Account of
the .value of all Imports into, and Exports from,
Ireland, in the year ending sth January,lBo7,
dis-
tinguishing the value- of Irish Manufactures export-
ed, and the official and real valtie of the Imports
and EXports. The Accounts were then presented
by the Hen. 'Baronet, and ordered to lie on the
table, and to be printed.
LOAN.
On the Motion of Lord HENRY PETTY, the. House
went into a Committee of Ways and Means.
In the Committee, LOl'd HENRY PETTY observed;
that as an opportunity had been formerly afibrded
him of stating the amount of Supplies, and of the
Ways and Means, there was ow uo necessity for
his trespassing upon the time of the House,. by en=
tering particularly upon the same subjeel. At' tini
same time he thought it proper shortly to irecapitu-:
late what he had before said, as the present occa-
sion furnished him with an opportunity orpresetitH
_ing a more accurate. view than. his means of in
formation before enabled him to do. The Noble
Lord stated, that there was some variation of his
loriner statement, owing to the excess olextraordi-1
naries for 1806, which, as the accounts had not .been.
made up at the time, he had not then the means of
calcUlating.., upon. 'As there were no 'reasonable
hopes of a -reduaion, this .excess, amountiog to
7g3jlol.'he would add to the extrain-ditiaries of
was
present year. Though this charge, hoWever,. was
so much greater than- he had calcalated, still' the
Ways and Means were Competent to meet it. His
Lordship then' stated the Supplies and the Ways
and Means, as follows :-
sUPPLI ES, 1807. • • • •

Navy
.army -
•
Ordinance
isqc I 13neor. s
Vote of Credit

£. 09'7,8•37
3,743.716
1,560,c00

3,000,c00

Total joint Charge .. 45,396,575
. " SEPARATE CHARGES, GREAT BRITAIN.
Deficiency of Malt 1805 - 200,cc0
Interest Qii Exchequer Bills, 1807 1,2,0,0r0
Five per Cents. 1707 to be paid vIT 350,0 t.
,

'1750,000

Total Supplies 4700,075
Declud Irish Proportion of joint Charge and Civil
List • - • - 5,545 1.,77

On account of Great Britain

,~ ~ ,fro, ,~'9y

WAYS' AND MEANS, 1807.
Malt Duty, Persions, etc. - - 2,77,...-,-00
Surplus Consolidated kuud - - 3,5:.7,0 .c,
War Taxes - - 19,8ac,0c0
Lottery - - - - 33?,000

Exchequer Bills on Vote of Credit
Loan -
Surplus Ways and Means 1806

12,2 o,oao
4.t,155

0,77,08'5
Amount of Supplies as above 41,600.89

Surplus Ways and Means. 173.287
In adverting to the Loan, he observed, that the
Contra6ors for every 1661', advanced were to have
701. three per cent. consols, 701:three per cent. 're-
duced', and 101.. 12s; navy five per cents.. The in-
terest on every tool. was 41. 14s. 7d. , The terms,
therefore, werenincommonlV advantageous for the
Country. The interest of the Loan for the last
year, which
.had been. reckoned, highly advanta-
•geous, was, as the House would recoliea, 41. I 9
7d: on the 1001.; there was, therefore, on the
Loan of the present year, a difierenee in favourof
the, public. of 58. per cent. His. Lordship expressed,
:his high satiSfaelion that notwithstanding the Excess
,of Extrawdinaries; the Ways and Means were fully_
isufficitnt to answer this Excess, and therefore lie
was inure confident than ever that liN.estimate of.
'32 millions as the.perthanent war expenditure was
well founded, :Excluding extraordinaries, subsidies,
and the increase of prices on the different articles to
be supplied, upon which no certain data could be
had, he thought the sum of 32 millionS the fairest
criterion of expenditure that could be formed. In
order to place this in the .clearest light, his Lordship
briefly compared thoamount of the Supplies, exclu=
sive of Extraordinaries, Subsidies, &c. &c. and of
Ways and Means, exclusive of the annual taxes, the
result of which comparison was, that there remain-
ed'a considerable surplus of Ways and Means.
Froth the whole, he concluded that he was fully
warranted in the criterion of 32 millions as the per-
manent Nvar expenditure, which he had taken as the
foundation' of the Plan which be had. on a rortner
occasion detailed •to the • FToitse. He th;li niched
that the sum of 14,200,9001.. be raised by annuities
for the service of England and Ireland for the year
1807.

. ,
Mr. contended that there eras a Eillacv in
!Abe Noble Lord'ti criterion of expenditure, as taking
the Loan and Vote of Credit tocrether, there would
be borrowed 15 millions'instead of t 2 million, odd,
--which latter sum was that which the Noble -Lord
had calculated upon. "
Lord. H. P appealed to the recollthion at
the House whether, in his first statement, .be, had
at distinaly said.; that extraordinary charges, sqb.-

sidles, &c: &c. were to he provided for separately.
He had taken the criterion of 32 millions exclusive
of these. How then could it be said that this wasa
fallacy? What he had stated was, that if Saiidies
should be necessary, these and other extraordinary
charges must be provided for separately—by Loan,
or otherwise. He had then also stated, t frat-he had
not taken Subsidies and other extraordinaries'into ac-
count, because, with respect 'to these, no certain'
diaa!`,ntiltibe fixed- -.44e-1-he-was-now-told that
this 'was a fallacy, because he had not taken extra-
ordinary charges into account. He desired to, he
understood. distinelly, and reFieated, once for 'all,
that the criterion which he had taken, Foreign
Subsidies, &c. were excluded. He had assumed 32
millions as-the.expendituref because for this he had
comparatively certain data,. The Plan, therefore,
he again stated, would be good, thus far, and no far-
ther.

Mr.. ROSE admitted that the'Noble Lord had ex-
eluded Subsidies. But:his-Subsidies- and Extraordi-
naries, -taken together, would only amount to about
one million,,andyet the Noble Lord wanted no less
than three millions on Exchequer Bills ; the remain,
Jug two millions 'being, on 'his' plan,"unaccounted
for. This, therefore, he considered asasonfession
that the criterion was wrong. But at- the same
time he made no-objeaion to this Vote of Credit.—
He knew that 32 rn. iiii9ns were-not s'nfficient for: the
war expenditure, and of course there must be fur-
ther provision made.
Lord HENRY PETTY observed; that the Dian
for this country was 12,Q00,0001. as he• bad origi-
nally stated it he had never said that a Vote of
Credit Would not be necessary. He excluded all
Subsidies.and increased prices-; and, instead Of a Sub-
sidy of 80,0001.• he had come do%;ii• for' three Mil-
lions—the whole must exclusively be, Rrovided-fot.
He had, aged strictly on the principle on which he-
had set out :.yet; even 'including a late excess of
ENtraordinaries, he had brought-the pernianent-tk7
pendituren within thirty-one, roitliaps arid.-.a
being half a million short of the Expenditure stated.
He considered himself, therefore, as more • thati
ever, justified in taking Ahe criterion of thirty-two

Mr. ROSE lAr ished to fix the Noble Lord to a
L point :• he Atiniitted the Nbble tOrd's statement
with ,resped to the Loan of 12,200,0001: But in
addition to that •there ,were three millions of Ex-.
chequer Bills unaccounted for, except by the Prussian
subsidy,and the excess of EXttaordinaries,which hard 4
arnonnted to one million. He admitted also the
Noble Lord's statement with resped to inc:b.jasecl
prices;
.but still that did not account for the three
millions. - The fad was, that instead of twelve Mil-
lions two hundred thousand pounds, the Loan waS.
15 millions. There was not 'the smallest probabi-
lity that the Expenditure' could be kept within 32

Lord HENRY PETTY observed, that when he
had detailed his Plan, he certainly intended that:
there should be a Vote of Credit ; and had stated,
that all unexpeCted excesses were to be separately
provided. tor.
Mr. FELLOWES said, that he had. understood
the Cliane.elior of the Exchequer exactly as he had
now stated the matter. He had .understood that.
all unexpetted Excesses, Subsidies, &c. Bcc. were.
to be separately provided for, and that' a Vote of
Credit to the amount specificd.wouldpe necessary-.

Sir ,THOMAS TURTON observed, that the
Noble Lord had kinillecl with the warmth of a ge-
nerous mind at the ch-arge of fallacy-.---but this was
not meant in any invidious, sense. The event had
proved, that from some cause or other tLe.e:wentli-
ture could riot be confined to thirty-two Millions.
If the, idea therefore liadthrie out among the Pub-
lic that this criterion was correct, there was no doubt ,
a fallacy with resped to the Public. He asked,
'whether
.the 500,0001. subsidy to Russia was. in •
consequence of the treaty of 1805, or any new
treaty ?—[Mr. Vansittart-intimated that it Was in
consequence of the old treaty,] Then he would wish
to know whether the. 80,0001. to Prussia was the
whole that was intended to be given, or whether it
was the. commencement of something further 1—
If it was only a previous step to something further,
he meant to propose a motion on that subjeCt. He
thought that subsidies to Prussia in the present state
of that country would be ,wasting money.: It would
produce no good whatever—the fortresses, for the
preservation of which this so,ooo. had been given,
had been captured, and there were little hopes that
any assistance of this sort would be of service. •

After a few words from:Mr. VANSITTART, the
Resolution re.zpeCting the' Loan, and the Resolution
respetling the terms on which it was procured, and
the defraying of the interest, Were put, and carried
without a division. •
The House then resumed, and the Report was
ordered to be received to-morrow, . .
The Sugar Drawback Bill, the Brandy Duty Bill,
and the Irish- Excise Ta-xes: Bill, were read- a third
time and passed. • ,
The Bill for Regulating the Importation .of-To-
hacco into Ireland waspaoed through a Commit-
tee; and the Report was ordered to be received
morrow.

On the Motion of Lord Howicx, the ,House
went into a Committee tbr the purpose of consider-
ing of the propriety of granting BoUnties f9r the
Prevention, of an illicit Traffic in -Slave.e; atter the
commencement df the opration of the Bill for the
Abolition of the .Slave Trade. The Committee
resolved, that it was expedkint that the sum of. 401:
per head for every male Slave taken on board a Ship
illegally trading 'to the British Colonies; 301. for
every female, and 201. for every child. under - 14
years of age, so taken, shOold, be grante-d. to the'
captors.—Proportionate sums'were voted for those
to belbund illegally offered to sale ; and rewards
were voted to those who tnay otherwise prevent the.
continuance:of the traffic.

The House lesnined, and ordered the Report to,
be received to-morrow.
The. Report of the Committee of SupplY• of,
Monday was then brought up. The different
Grants to Institutions in Ireland were untt-
nimon.ily agreed to, until the, Resolution which
grants the sum of 13,0001. towards the . support.
of a S,-.-minary for the Education of Roman Ca-
,tholie:Clerkytnen, at Maynooth, was read. This
'c,114 q 1 up
Mr. PERCIVAL, who spoke at some. considerable
length against the further encouragement of the
E,tablishipent, which, in his opinion, had 4 ten=
clencj to increase the 4issentions which unhappily ;