The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-06 00:00:00

leave to the retailers of beer to keep open their houses
as late as the gin shops.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the came indulgence
ought to be given to . the beer-shops as was extended to
the public-hotosts. Ile would much rather enthiorage the
sale of beer than that of ardent spirits.
• Sir RICHARD VYVYAN thiMght the Hon. Baronet
who had :just spoken had forgot that public-houses were
lie-nsed by Magistrates, and that the Hon. Membr for'
itiidtitesex had made the great mistake of 'otifounding
the public-houses in the country wi'h those in town. The
great object of the Magi•stre'Ves in wishing to put down the
beer-shops wan; that they might be placed under the con-
trottl -Sl7 the police, and he was sure, if these places were
allowed to be increased, the peace of the country would re-
quire an increase of the police.
Mr. WILKS observed that it must lee at:parent that
the police, at the present moment, heal an authority to enter
any beer-house that was tact properly conducted, and no one
could keep tine of these houses without entering into a bond
for the preservation of the peace.
Mr. WEYLAND was not aware of the right of a con-
stable to enter these beer houses when they pleased,
and he had no hesitation in saying-, that these houses
often sold much more intoxicating liquor than the regedar
publicans. He Ireiieved that great distinctions ought to be
made hetween the houses in town and those in the country,
in which latter place many of these houses occasioned great
imischief, and were the means of corrupting the lower
classes of society.
Mr. HUME saw no reason for putting thee, houses undt r
any regulation; he did not see why beer would not be sold
i in the same manner as tea and sugar ; he considered the
beer-shops had great ground of complaint, and he hoped
,ill these diecttsaions would end in the sale of bre: ;Join;
throtrn completely open.
Mr. ESTCOURT would tell the non. Member for Mid-
dlesex that the reason why beer should not be sold in the
same manner as tea and sugar was, that the one made a
man drunk, and the other did not.—(Laughter.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY suggested that the better way
of suppressing the gin shops would he to enable tire poorer
classes to brew for themselves—(Hear; hear)---and that
would be most effectually done by taking the duty
off mak...e( Hear, hear ) It another tax was required in
its place let a property tax be substituted. He weeid also
suggest that in every parish there should be implements for
brewing to lend to the poor, as perhaos it was not generally
known that a gentleman lending his brewing utensils was
1 subject to the penalty of ;AL
"STEAM PACKETS.
Colonel SIBTHORPE begged to call the attention of the
Secretary at 'War, whom be now saw in his place, to
what he had stated on a previous occasion with respect to
steam pickets, denominating themselves war packets. The
Right Hoc, Secretary was doubtless aware of the many
accidents that hail lately occurred on board these packets,
and he (Colonel Sibthorpe) trusted he would do something
to deprive them of thus imposing on the publics
Sir H. PARNELL observed, that the owners of the
vessels, referred to by theGallent Colonel, had made use of
the names on account of the conditions of their contracts,
and until those etentracts ceased he could not very well see
what alteration lie could make.
Colonel SIIITHORPE then gave notice of his intention
to eariee to-morrow for the appointment of a select Com-
mittee, to take into consideration the many calamitous ac-
cidents that hid taken place on band steam peekets.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the industrious
Masses of the metropolis, complaining of the imprison-
ment of persons for selling the Poor Alan's Guardian.
The Hoefougamot Meestueo also gave nodee of hi;
intention to move to-morrow that an homble address
he presented to his Majesty, praying his Majesty to exer-
else an act of grace to all Crew debtors on the approach-
ing Coronation, and Blau for the grant of a sum, cot ex-
ceeding 21,0001., to be appropriated for the discharge of
debtors imprisoned for small sums throughout the United
Kinedom.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented two petitions from
merchants, ship-corners, and others interested in the
navigation of the river Thames, in favour of the Bill
for the regulation of steam-boats in the port of
London. The Honourable Alderman then stated, thet
from what had passed on former occasions he
was induced to proceed no further with that Bill, and
that be should therefore withdtaW it—at the same time
eiving notice that ho would on a future day move for a
Select Cotnmittre to investigate the best mode of prevents
ing accidents by steam-vessels.
The order of the day for the second reading of the
, Steam-boats Bill was then dierharged.
LIVERPOOL ELECTION.
Mr. GRANVILLE VERNON rose to move that a
new writ be issued for the borough of Liverpool. fie
was aware bow precious the time of the House was at
the present period, but he was induced to make his motion
cri the broad and eciiii grounds of Parliamentary usage
and comeaen right. He was aware of the difficulties he
had to encounter from the opposition of the Honourable
Member for Wiltshire (Mr. litinett)) as well as of the
Hon. Member for Ipswich, and he could not but conceive
that those difficulties were somewhat in the nature of a
pettyfogging Reform, at a time when the House was en-
gaged iel carrying into effect a large andgentral Measure of
Reform. He thought,while such a geoeral measure of Refre m
was under disettion, It Would be much better to allow
this writ to isrees without entering into any discussion on
it. `!'lose Honourable Members would not be convene
Itosed as to any ulterior measures they might !hint: proper
to adopt by agreeing to his proposition. His attention
had been called to this sOl.ject on the presentation of a
petition signed by 14 000 merchants, bankers, and others
ef Liverpool, praying to be allowed a full representation,
and the only Hon. Member for Liverpool had stated
in the House, that the great eel varied interests of
that large commereiel town could not be properly at-
tended to by one representative. He brought forward this
motion en the ground of public expediency, for he
conceived that a population of two hundred thousand
inhabitants, and producing a million of revenue, were en-
titled to the benefit of a full representation. He did
not atoetept to deny that groan brlbety and corruption hat
prevailed et the elections in that town, for it was in evidence
that the returns of Mr. Roscoe, Mr. Canning, and Mr.
Ituskisson were obtained by that corrupt system ; bet
there was no precedent to justify the tuspension of a writ
for so long a period. At this oerticOlter peeiod, while the
Reform Bill watt being discussed, it was unjust to leave a
large hortugch like Liverpool without a representative,
unless some Parliamentary precedents could be produced
to justify it. The Hon. Member, after citing the cases of
Grarnpound, Penrhyn, East B.ctfood, trod Aarnataple, none
of which, he contenderh applied to this case, concluded by
moving that A, tretV writ be issued for Liverpool.
Mr. BENETT (Wilshire) said there had been an un-
derstanding in the House that the writ for Liverpool should '
be suspended till he brought Forward his motion on the
subject. He did not wish to delay the Reforin Bill, but,
as Chairman of the Cotnwittee on the Liverpool petition,
he felt it his imperative duty ItO propose a series of resolu-
tions, pledging the House to take the subject into serious
consideration. (The Hon. Member then proceeded to read
several extracts from the evidence taken before the Liver-
pool Election Committee, and which had been printed se-
veral months since by order of the House.) 'This evidence,
he proceeded to eontend, could leave no doubt on the mind
of any min that gross bribery and corruption prevailed
tnost extensively in Liverpool at the electien before the
last. Five pounds were given by tile friends of both cane
didates in the early part of the election, but as it pro-
ceded 401. was the price given for a vote. It might na-
turally o:cite surprise that so large a sum should be spent
by any man for the sake of obtaining seats in that House
It was to he considered, however, that there was enor-
mous patronage in Liverpool, which had hitherto been
placed at the disposal of the Member of that town, if
he happened to be a supporter of the Government of
the dey. Such practices, he hoped and believed, were
now to he done away with fur ever. —(Hear, hear.) It
was nntot hors, however, that the situation of Town Clerk
of Liverpool was worth 4,0001. per annum, and that
there were several other situations averaging between
2,0001. and 3,000/. a year in that town, in the disposal
of which the Members had usually exercised a great in-
fluence. He did not believe that either of the gentlemen
who were candidates at the election bad any sinister mo-
tives, or any other object in view hut the laudable ambi-
tion of obtaining so high an honour as a seat in that
House for the great commercial town of Liverpool. He
acquitted the candidates themselves of any improper mo-
tives, but there might be other persons behind the curtaiu
who tool an eye to the disposal of the patronage, and with
that view were willing to spend la-ge sums of money in
bribing the electors. However this might be, he con-
ceived that the constituency of Liverpool, by gross and ex-
tensive corruption, bad forfeited their rights. The lion.
Member concluded by moving a series of resolutions, to
the effect that the House agreed with the report made by
the Select. Committee on the 26th March last, that gross
bribery prevailed at the late election for Members to serve
in Parliament for Liverpool—that the House had taken
the subject into its most serious consideration—and that it
was the opinion of the House that leave should be given
to bring in a Bill to prevent bribery and corruption in
future elections for the borough of Liverpool.
The question having been put on the amendment,
Mr. HUME should support the original motion, because
he considered that the extensive Reform Bill now before
promdings in
the Hum would put a check to all such

if
the borough of Liverpool for the fettute.—(llear.)
there had not been eo staleeping and important a general
Deform Bit: before the House, however, he should have
felt it his duty to give his support to the amendment pro-
posed by the Hon. Member for Wilts.
Lord AIORPETH, as a Member the Committee,
felt himself called upon to 'state that a case of gross and
extensiVts!ceitst!lption had been clearly made out. Never-
theless, as his object was to prevent rather than punish,
and as he conceived the present Reform Bill would effec •
tually prevent the recurrence of bribery, he should sup'
port the original motion.
Mr. WASON thought it a etrileints flea'Zre in thisdis-
mission that there aS.ppTse!: the amendment of the
lion. Mertatte'e for Wilts rested their arguments on the
general Reform Bill. They were only willing to apply
the same remedy to the case of Liverpool—one of the
grossest cases of corruption which ever came before the
House, or excited the indignation of the country—which
they were also willing to apply to the whole of England—
to those pure and unsuspected constitneneles which 'returned
many of the lion. Alerobers Who Sat around him.
Air. LABOtCHERE thought the conduct of the
electors of Liverpool sufficient to justify the House in dis-
franchising them ; but as it was a great hardship for a
town of such importance to be so long without Members,
and as a day wouhl come when suds ptesetitees would be
punished, he would vote for issuing the writ.
Mr. CROKER was of opinion that the issue of the
King's writ at the general election ought to have been a
condonation for the past offences of the electors of Liver-
pool, but the Pelona Bill had produced a great change on
this subfect. By that Reform Bill all those electors con-
iSited of bribery and corruption would not only escape un-
touched, but would have the right of voting for lifes He
therefore most raise his voice against such a coutate
course which deprived honest and inSiependent electors of
their right, and continted the franchise to the convicted
electors of Liverpool.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, en a
former occasion, had voted for continuing the writ, not
for the pure se of stifling ineeirly, but because it would
be a great inconvenittZe for such a large and commercial
town as Liverpool to be so long without representation.
The questien was, however, whether or no the wt it
should issue ? and Members ought to recollect that, though
the writ should he issued, the Hotise would not thereby
be precluded from going into inquiry, for tile subject
could be ae competently taken up after issuing the writ as
before.. He had refrained front saying a word on the
subject, because he had not formed any decided opinion,
and wished to be guided by the opinion of the Home. In
that ease. though in scone respects contrary to his opinion,
he would vote for the amendment.
Mr. VERNON was rather surprised at the statement
of the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) rel itive to
the convicted electors, and the complaint he had made,
that, notwithstanding such conviction, they should still
he allowed to vote. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought
to recollect that, when the franchise was extended from
East Retfard to the hundred of Bassetlaw, the convicted
electors of that place were allowed to vote, and the Right
Hon. Gentle:nal) was one of the strong supporters of that
Bill. —(Hear.)
Lord AIANDEVILLE said a few words, but they were
not audible in the gallery.
Mr. AUNT was glad that the Noble Lord, the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, had expressed himself in the
way he had done; for, if the House were to vote for the
issuing of the writ without inquiry, he should consider it
one of the greatest disgraces that could happen.
Mr. W'ILKS was quite sure that those who voted fur
the suspension of the writ never anticipated such delay as
had taken place, and that ought not to be brought forward
against them when the general question was again brought
under discussion.
Mr. C. PELHAM said that, whatever delay might take
place, inquiry ought to be instituted. Justice ought to be
done, whatever delay or expense might ensue. Justitia
fiat root (Yawn.
The House then divided, and the numbers were—
Noes 70
A yo
Majority -41
On re-entering the gallery we found Mr. BENETT cn
his legs, moving tor leave to lining in a Bill to prevent bri-
bery and corruption at Liverpool.
1111.. HUAIE thought that the Bill would delay the great
measure of Reform ; if so, he would oppose it in every
stag=: after its introduction. Ile had voted for the issuing
of the writ.
Mr. C. PELHAM was astonished to hear the Hon.
Member for Middlesex make that declaration, considering
how clearly corruption and bribery had been established be-
fore the Election Committee, and how strongly that Hon.
Member had always insisted upon abuses being corrected.
Mr. C. FERGUSON concurred with what the Hon.
Gentleman who h id spoken last had said.
Mr. WARBURTON said, if the Bill now sought to be
introduced were likely to delay the Reform Bill then he
should oppose it.
Lerd JOHN RUSSELL, as it was not intended to
proceed with the Bill until the measure Wfts disposed of,
should support the :notion of the Hon. Member for
Wiltshire (Mr. Benett). In his (Lord J. Russell's) opi-
nion such a Bill was highly essential.
Air. ROBINSON thought it disgraceful to the House
to allow the proceedings at Liverpool to pass without
notice, and he contorted in the necessity of bringing in
such a that as that now under discussion.
Mr. CHOKER looked upon the Bill as aiding and as-
sisting the measure of Reform.
Mr. BENETT begged to say that, if the Hon. Member
for Middlesex would review his reendnet, he 'Would be
sat is.
tied that nothing would he done by him (Mr. Benett) to
retard the Reform measure.—( Hear.)
Mr. IRTAIE, after hearing what had been asserted,
woold not object to the introduction of the Bill.—(Hear.)
Leave was then given to bring its the Bill.
SUPPLY.
The CHANOMOR of the EN:CHEQUER said that
previously to bringing up the clause in the R,forni 13.11,
when it was in the Committee, which provided for the
payment of harrist rs appointed to revise the lists of
voters, it would be necessary to take a resolution of the
Committee of Supply for a vote to pay them ; and he
now, therefore, moved ''that the Home do resolve :'self
into a Committee of Supply, to consider in what way to
pay the barristers who are to be employed in revising tF
lists of voters at electors."
The question was then put and agreed to, after a few
words from Sir C WETHERELt. and Air. CisokErt.
Ca the question being put that the brEAKER leave the

Chair,
Mr. B. WALL rose for the purpose (before the House
went into Committee) of putting a question to the Noble
Lott!, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, respecting a pro-
ceedings to which he Would now Call the attention of the
House. It would be recodected that, on Priday evening
last, there Was a debate on that clause authorising the ap-
pointment of Commissioners, and he begged that Hon.
Members would bear in mind the dates to which he
should refer, for upon them depended lunch of what he
was about to urge. On the 2d of September the debate
took place ; now he had a lett( r which be had that day
received, enclosing ;Mother from the Secretary of State's
i Office, dated August 21th, which letter he would now.
with permission of the House, read.—(Hear ) It was
addressed to the churchwardens of St. Mary's parish, Guil-
ford, and was in these terms t—
" Hentlemeti,—l am directed by Viscotint MclbournC to re-
quest that you will furnish Messrs. Dawson, Drinkwater, and
Sanders, with all the information which you possess respecting
the boundaries of the parish of St. Mary, Guilford, and other
matters connected therewith.-1 em Gentlemen, your most obe-
dient servant, " GEO. PHILLIPS.
" Home Ottice, August 24, 1831."
It was, in his opinion, an extraordinary proceeding on the
part of his Majesty's Ministers to issue a letter under the
authority of the Secretary of State fur the Home Depart-
ment, requesting that Messrs. Drinkwater, Dawson, and
Sanders, who were not then appointed Commissioners—
(lkar, hear)—should be furnished with information by
the churchwardens upon the subject of boundaries. This
document was sent to the churchwardens with another,
which he would now real. This bore the date of August
26, and it was also addressed to the churchwardens of St.
Marv's, Guilford. It ran thus :
, " Messrs. Drinkwater, Dawson, and Sanders, present their
1 compliments, and beg to incline a letter to the overseers of St.
Mary's parish, from the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment; and they beg to add that they shall be obliged by being
allowed to inspect the parish books."
(Hear, hear.) It was dated " White Hart, Guilford."
Now he hoped that the public would know these facts.
Oa the 24th of August his Majesty's Ministers directed a
letter to be sent from the Secretary of State's Office, to
furnish Commissioners, not then appointed, with infor-
mation. On ti .e 26th the Commissioners go, and on
the 2d day of September the Noble Lord comes down to
the House and moves the appointment of the Commis-
sioners under the Bill, among whose names those
g-ntlemen are included.—(Hear, hear.) lie really
thought that the course pursued by Government was im-
proper : the House was treated very cavalierly indeed.—
(Hear.) It would have been a more constitutional pro-
main—it would have been more consistent with the
Noble Lord's candour—had he first come down to that
House and obtained its sanction for the appointment of the
Cononi: sioners, before they had been despatched on their
mission.—(Hear.) He was quite aware that it was ne-
! ecsary to have further information, and through that House
the Bill might pass, but through the other House of Par-
t litunent in his eonnienee be believed it never

(Hear.) He bad thought it fight to mentiUli these bias
to the House. He did not know whether he should
found a motion Upon the subject; but he was anxious the
House aril the public should be made acquainted with
what had transpired. The question which he wished to
put to the Noble Lord was whether circular letters were
or were not sent from the Home Office on the 21th of
August to the gentlemen proposed to be appointed Com-
missioners, and whose names were afterwards submitted to
the Committee
The CIT.ANCELLoia of the EXCHEQUER, as was
understood, said that a letter had been sent through the
gentlemen whose names had been mentioned, but that
the parties to whom it was addressed were not bound
to attend to it The communication was not of that
Official character compelling an answer. The Ho-
nour ible Gentleman had said that he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) would have acted with more candonr
had he stated what wet-e the intentions of Ministers re-
specting the appointment of Commissioners. The House
would recollect that be had informed the Committee on the
Reform Bill that inquiries were going on—(Hear)—and
part of those inquiries had reference to the proceedings
now complained of by the Hon. Member. The object
Isis Majesty's l'iitlistert was to Coll'aa materials for carry-
ing into effiet tha Fill, and until the Committee had de-
cided that Messrs. Drinkwater, Sanders, and Dawson
should be Commissioners, they were of course not ap-
pointed. If Government had postponed collecting this
information until the Bill bad passed the Lords, then
blame would have been cast upon Ministers.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) How fry rpiesitly hal it been said, in the
discussions on the Bill, that there ought to nave been
much more informatien obtained, and how often bad Mi-
nisters been charged with negligence on that head ?
Sir C. WETHERELL Considered the proceeding named
by the Hon. Member (Mr. B. Wall) so extraordinary,
being neither more nor less than an infringement of the
privileges of the House, that lie should assuredly found a
:notion upon it—(fear)—and he now said that on Wed-
nesday he would bring it forward. The Noble Lord had
treated the affair as a matter of course. He (Sir C. We-
therell) viewed it in a very different light. It was a most
extraordinary and unconstitutional mode of proceeding, to
islets letters from the Under-Secretary of State's Office,
treating persons as Commissioners under the Bill before
their appointment had received the sanction of that House;
before the Bill had been read a third time.
Mr. HUME was sure that the country would thank Isis
Majesty's Ministers for what they had done.—(Hear.) It
was part of the tactics of those who opposed the measure
to get up every thing which could delay it.—(Hear.)
This was the game practised by the opposers of the Bill.
He was surprised, or rather he ought to say he was not
surprised, because it tendril to delay the Bill going into
Committee—(Allrugby—ihar
lion. Gentlemen, who had so
repeatedly cried " Give is further information—let us
have full and accurate data upon whirls to proceed—Mi-
nisters ought to products information," should now turn
round and complain that information was about being ob-
taMed. Oh ! but they said "it was procured impro-
perly—it was an unconstitutional way of getting informa-
tion." This appeared to bins to be blowing hot and cold—
(Renewed laughing)—but, as he had just said, he be-
lieved their object was only to delay the progress of the
Bill. He urged his Majesty's Ministers to proceed with
the inquiry.—( Hear.)
Mr. B. WALL now understood from the Noble Lord
that the Commiaiioners hail no authority to compel the
information to which the letter of the Under-Secretary had
reference. ITe (Mr. B. Wall) had that morning received
a letter from his friend, the churchwarden of Guilford—(A
laugh)—he would repeat that it was from a friend, and be
hoped the country would know in what wry the middle
orders were treated when spoken of in that House. The
Commissioners told that gentleman that they bad come
by the authority of Isis Majesty's Government—(Hear)—
and he hoped that it would go forth to the world that the
Commissioners had no such authority.
Sir E. SUGDEN was not disposed to find fault with
the arrangement if the object were to obtain information.
He had himself pointed out to the Committee the necessity
of having further information at different times. He must,
however, object to the Commissioners exercising their offi-
cial character before they were legally appointed ; and the
question now was, whether they had proceeded officially to
the performance of their duties by direction of Government?
Mr. WARBURTON said what he understood the Noble
Lord to assert was, that the Commissioners had no autho-
rity under the Bill.—(Hear.) They trail, he presumed,
authority from the Secretary of State's Office—(Hear)—
and he was extremely glad to find that the inquiries were
set on foot to enable them to psi form their duties.
Mr. 11. HUGHES said, on Friday last, in answer to a
question which he had himssff lust (we believe) to the
Noble Lord, inquiring whether the Commissioners had pro-
ceeded to obtain information, the Noble Lord had signified
that the information was in the way of being obtained.
The discovery now made appeared to be what might vul-
garly be called a mare's nest.—(A laughs.)
Mr. CROKER begged to ask why was not this infor-
mation obtained before ?—( Hear.) Why were not these
facts rsspecting Guilford brought forward wben that boroughs
was under discussion?—([)ear.) It seemed that the Noble
Lord disposed of a matter, and then called for information.
Mr. HUNT wished to know whether a gentleman named
Talents, whose name stood among the Commissioners, was
the Mr. Talents, the agent of the Duke of Newcastle, and
who had been emplsyed in the Special Commissions in the
West of England ? He (Mr. Hunt) had received letters
from the West of England stating a wish, if the gentleman
was the one whom they suspected him to be, that he should
not visit irs his official capacity that part of the country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Mr. Talents so appointed a Commissioner was the agent
of the Duke of Newcastle, and had been engaged in the
Special Commissions. He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) then defended the Committee and Government from
the charge thrown out by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Croker), that information was sought to be procured re-
lating to Guildford after the borough had been dealt with.
It appeared to him necessary to have infotmation for pro-
ceedings with the machinery of the Bill, as the delay was
so great.—(llear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell.) Ile would
not use the word " delay" if it were disagreeable to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman—(A laugh) —but the Bill
was going Tward so slowly, that is was thought better to
have the information wanted with as much expedition as
possible as soon as the Commissioners were appointed.
Mr. CROKER hoped that, on the report being brought
up, the, horongh of Guildford would be taken out of
schedule B.
REFINING OF FOREIGN SUGAR.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS wished to ask the Noble
Lord when lie meant to bring forward his Bill for allow-
ing the refining of foreign sugar ? Whenever that was
brought forward, he would move that a Committeeof the
whole House should be appointed to take into considera•
thin the accounts and calculations submitted to the Board
of Trade relative to the finances, &c. of the West India
Islands,which hail been laid before the House in Feb. 1831.
Lard ALTIIORI' intended to bring fxward that Bill
en Wednesday, but he was afraid it would not be possible.
The Speaker then left the Chair, and the House re-
solved itself into a
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Lord ALTHORP moved a resolution in accordance
with what he stated in proposing that the House should
go into a Committee.
In reply to a question front Sir C. WETHERELL,
Lord ALTHORP stated that it was not yet in his
power to define the number of barristers.
Mr. HUME doubted the propriety of snaking the pub-
lic pay these expenses. The barristers would he more un-
di r controul and check if their expenses were paid out of
the county rates and out of the funds of time borough where
their services were rtquired. Their sittings might be
prolonged indefinitely, unless there were some check of this
kind phsced on them, and they were under some respon-
sibility.
gentlemen were to
Lord ALTHORP thought, as these
be appointed by an authority higher than that of the
county, the suggestion of the Hon. Member would not
place them under any controul. The h
Rod expenceou thou was to
be incurred for the public benefit, ane ght the
public ought to bear tie expence. In boroughs, too, it
would be very difficult to apportion accurately the share
of the expenee which each parish ought to pay.
Mr. `SILKS wished the principle extended, for he was
persuaded the expences incurred under the Bill would fall
very heavy on the metropolitan districts. He wished the
expense should be as much as possible paid by a general
tax, and not by a local tax- Of this he was quite sure,
that,
the relieftolefnttheo
ofpthtrosse persons out of the fund raised
for would create great dissatisfaction
b
HUNT was of opinion, that those who gained
votes
ill should pay the expences of securing,
m
that those who gained nothing by the Bill
ttre ug
b Eye: tpud
t Bhe country.
Mt.o tl
should not he called on to pay anything.
Mr. HUME suggested, that any individual who re-
gistered his vote should pay a shilling or half a crown at
the time he did so. By adopting that course they would
raise a fund sufficient to pay every expellee. Ile under-
stood that in the county of Middlesex there would he near
sixty thousand voters, so that it wad be very easy to raise
money enough in the way he mentioned. If they thought
half a crown or a shilling too much, then be would pro-

sikpcncc, or any sum which would in that way raise
a fund large enough for the purpose.
Mr. CROKER said they had heard a good deal of the
anomalies of the Bill, but of all the anomalies they had
yet heard, the most extraordinary would he that which the
Member for Middlesex wished to introduce—that those
persona should in future pay money for giving their vote,
after having throvigliout all the former ty.rt of their lives
7eCzi-zin,;,7 money ior the same purpose.—(Hear, and
a laugh.) Most certainly that was one of the anomalies
to which he would offer no objection.
On the question that the Committee do agree to the
resolutions,
Mr. HUNT expressed an opinion that some definitive
sum should be named instead of voting money in that
manner, to lie at the discretion of the Government.
Lord ALTTIORP said it would be impossible to tell
what t=ine would be occupied by the barristers in the per-
formance of the duties, and they could not therefore name

any sum.
Sir C. WETHERELL, adverting to the report that
the Commissioners named last week had already com-
menced their labrnrs, begged to telt the noble Lord a ques-
tion on that subject. Had the Government, or any Member
of the Government, promised these Commis,ioners a
guinea a day and their travelling expences ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that some of the Commissioners
had, he believed, been calk! I on to act, hut no sum beyond
their travelling expences had been promised by any Mem-
ber of the Government as a remuneration for their services.
Mr. CROKER observed on the extraordinary fact of
these Commitisioncrz being employed in this manner before
they were really appointed by the House, and before it
was known that their services would be useful—and the
Government, at the same time, stipulating to pay the cx-
pence of that service.
Mr. RICE said, the Right Hon. Gentleman must know
that the same course had frequently been followed on other
occasions by the Government with which that Right Hon.
Gentleman was connected, and the money afterwards
voted among the contingencies.
Mr. CROKER was understood to deny that.
Sir C. WE fIIERELL said, the Government, in thus
employing the Commissioners, and promising to p7iy them
out of the public money before they were really appointed,
had been guilty of conduct most uuwarrantabl• and ille-
gal, and be should certainly bring the question, by a
formal motion, under the consideration of the House.
Mr. HUME said, he could not allow the expression,
unwarrantable, to pass without reprehension. The Go
vernment had done what was quite right. It was just the
same kind of justifiable expence as that which had been
incurred in obtaining information before the introduction

of the Bill.
Sir C. WETIIERELL thought it rather odd to be
called to account fur the use of strong expressions by the
Member for the county of Middlesex.—( Hear.) Every
body knew that tie language of the Alember for Middlesex
was not the smoothe•t to be heard in that House, and that
the Hon. Member very frequently fell into very strong
expressions himself.—(Hear, hear.) Every body knew
that the sentences of the Member for Middlesex required a
good deal of the lima labor to render them fit to appear a-
delivered iq that House—(Hear, hear, and a laugb)—and
it was rather too much, therefore, that the Hon. Member
should take objections to his. The Member for Middlesex
had render ed himself remarkable for his objections to ex
penses of all kinds ; but his course in this case would b
a little uncommon. The Hon. Member for Aliadlesex
seemed inclined to allow the expense then, that he might
have the pleasure ofobjecting to it afterwards.—(A laugh.)
Air. HUME observed, that the Learned G ntleman was
perfectly wrong, and he was perfectly right.—(A laugh.)
That was just the state of the case. If he had used the
mud unwarrantable improperly he was sorry for it.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House hav-
ing resumed, the report was ordered to he brought up to-
morrow (this day).
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL gave notice, that on the
bringing up of the report, he intended to move for a copy
of the circular addressed to the Commissioners, and fur
a return of the names of the persons to whom it was so
addressed.

REFORM.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the House then re-
solved itself into a Committee on !he Reform Bill.
Clause 33, which requires the overseers of the poor in
every parish to make out an alphabetic Al lit of the persons
entitled to be registere), was then read, and several of the

blanks having been tilled up,
Mr. WILKS said he thought that was the proper occa-
sion for the consideration of a suggestion he had to offer
to the Noble Lord and the Committee, with respect to the
payment of the expences of the lists, notice:, and the other
forms connected with tie registration. The House and
the ,Government did not, he thought, estimate to its
full extent the cost of these proceedings. In the division
of the Tower Hamlets there would be 40,000 I.ou-es, and
he believed the expence of carrying the provisions of the
IBill into effect in that district would not be less than two
or three thousand a year. Ile thought that a sum so large
as this should not come out of the rates.
Alderman WOOD said, the whole of the duty could be
discharged by a clerk for 200/. a year.
Colonel SII3THORPE contended that the expence'
would be very great, and that no one could calculate the
amount with cert,inty.
Lord ALTHOILP said, that the Government thought it
much better to have these duties performed by the over-
seers at the cost of the parishes, than by persons appointed
and paid by the State; because they were satisfied there
would be a much stricter attention to the expenditure, and
that the parishes would be able to keep a more effectual
controul over their own officers.
Mr. HUNT complained of the power put in the hands
of the overseers.
Mr. WILKS suggested that the churchwardens in pa-
rishes where there were not overseers should be invested
with the same powers as overseers.
After a few words from Lord ALTIIOItP and Sir C.
WETHERELL, several other blanks were filled up in the

clause.
Clause 33, as amended, was then agreed to.
Some merely verbal amendments were also introduced
into clause 34 ; after which it was agreed to.
Lord ALTI-1011P then proposed the substituted clauses,
35, 56, and 37, and the Committee proceeded to the con-
sideration of them.
The 35th clause was agreed to, aft r a few words from
Mr. .1. CAMettELL, Mr. Roes, and Sir E. 13. SUGDEN.
The 36th clause was also gone through ; and it was
agreed to without any other amendment than that pro-
posed by Mr. Wilks, to provide that copies of notices
should be given by the overseers, &c. of any parish, on the
payment of the fee of one shilling.
The 37th clause, as amended, was ordered to staid part
of the Bill.
The 38th clause, as amended, was ordered to stand pat
of the Bill.
The 39th clause was in the same manner agreed to.

On the question that the 40th clause 1P agreed to,
Colonel WOOD said he was convinced that this proposed
plan of registration of voters would he found both too ex-
pensive and too troublesome to be carried into effect. There
was an instance of the same attempt at registration already
upon our Statute-book, and it had been a complete failure.
In the year 1758 an Act was passed for the registration of
freeholders in their respective parishes, and in the follow-
ing year another Act of Parliament was passed to repeal
the first Act, it having been found utterly ineffectual. He
believed that, if this clause was passed, an Act would be
found necessary in the course of next year to repeal it.
Lord ALTHORP said, that the Act of 1788 had not
escaped the consideration of the Committee. That Act
had been introduced by the late Lord Stanhope., and it
gave to freeholders the opportunity of re4iste ring them-
selves in their respective parishes. It fur nished the ma-
chinery of registration, but it did not compel any parties
to employ that machinery for the registration of their free-
holds. The consequence was, that very few persons
availed themselves of the means thus afforded. The Com-
mittee had considered this circumstance, and, with a view
of obviating the objection of the Gallant Colonel, no longer
left tile registration a matter of choice, but made it compul-
sory on the freeholders.
The clause was then agreed to.
The 41st clause was then agreed to, after some verbal
amendments.
The 42d, likewise, underwent verbal amendments ; and
the several constructions to which it was liable, as well as
other matters connected with it, of a merely technical na-
ture, were the subject of a conversation, in which Sir C.
Wetherell, Mr. Serjeant Wilde, Sir E. B. Sugden, the
Attorney-General, and Mr. J.Campbell chiefly participated.
counties
The clause was eventually agreed to.
The 43d clause was then agreed to.
Onst
ht
‘thateat the
ott uffio
vhsie,r44eitisheinontellyaf(ui asmet,hpell:.lprolling of voters .HOU Iv..DSerNm iVOR n
larger'li :r th ought
v
Lord ALTHORP thought that the number of booths
that would be opened would he sufficient.
Mr. STRICKLAND said, that in the East Riding of
Yorkshire there were 30,000 voters, and they would never
have time to poll in two days.
Sir C. WETHERELL thought that a week was the
shortest time to which the poll ought to be limited.
Lord ALTHORP said, that in Yorkshire, wide!, lad
been spoken of, there would he fifteen polling places, and
in each of those places there could be ss many booths as
the case might require. In consequence of that arrange-