The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-27 00:00:00

cult), now, particularly in the distressed districts, to as-
certain who was ab!c- bodied and who was infirm, that
the returns from which the Noble Lord took those num-
bers could not b.', depentiA on.
Mr. 11. GiIA.TTAN thought the measure was not
positively bad or positively good, and certainly the Noble
Lord hims,lt did not expect it was such a one as to take
Ireland out of all her diffi,mlqes. Ti,e poor-14w in Ire-
land had totally tail-d; that was clear according to the
evidence of one of the Commissioners examined before a
Committee of the House. They talked of emigration,
but did history ever present such a spectacle as four mil-
lion acres of land not cultivated, and yet the people
leaving it for want of employment? The Hon. Gentle-
man then went into a detailed account of deaths by
starvation, and proceeded to state that, although a mil-
lion of money was collected every week in this country,
yet these things were suffered to exist in an integral
portion of the empire. Were they Christians, or men,
he asked, who looked on such things with apathy?
Such a calamity may be a misfortune to Ireland,
but it was a disgrace to England. In London they
would find absentees who carried away two
three, and four millions of money from their
pauperise d tcnants, and yet the people were dying of
starvation. They might talk of poor-laws, and of a
Rate in Aid Bill, but the question they should ask
themselves was, wheth,r Ireland was really united to
England or not? He (Mr. Grattan) proposed in 1826
that the absentees should be taxed; end why, ha would
ask, were they not taxed now, seeing that these same
men were the cause o• all the difficulties which beset the
land? What was the sort of legislation attempted now?
He was glad to see the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth come back to the House, for he believed
he had c turage to plan a remedy and to carry it into
execution.—(Hear, hear.) Let them send back the
Irish landlords to cultivate their lands and do
their duty to their country. No, they would
not do so, because they knew the advantages
they derived from their residence; but there was a
Divine and just Providence punishing them now
for their misdeeds and misgovernment, and the misfor-
tunes they created were now coming back and falling on
their shoulders. He had received a letter from a lady
a few days ago, connected with a highly respectable
family, in which it was stated that the family property
on which her jointure was charged had gone to ruin;
that it was, therefore, unable to pay her, and she was, in
consequence, reduced to a state of starvation. Then,
with regard to the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamwortb, was it to be similar to that in-
famous course pursued in the time of James the First,
when the unfortunate inhabitants of an entire province
were driven out of their properties with the cry of " To
hell, or to Connaught?" What was to be their religion?
Who who were they to be, and of what nation com-
posed? If the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to get some
information of the manner in which plantations in for-
mer days were carried on, he might go to the theatre,
and the performance of the White Horse of the Peppers
would enlighten him. His Honourable Friend
the Member for Montrose was unwilling that more
grants should be made to Ireland. He was like others
of the petticoat gentry, who had no hearts and
no breeches pockets.—(Laughter.) But the Irish people
wanted not the benevolence of England; but justice.
They wanted back their landlords; but this was refused,
and hence all the misery with wich this country was
inflicted. To show the condition to which things were
reduced, he might mention, that in one case he knew of
an estate which cost some years ago 89,000/., and yet it
would now he sold for 25,0001. He would ask the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, whether the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland had not come over lately to urge
upon him the necessity of having rotatory Parliaments?
The Noble Lord shook his head, and be was sorry for it;
but the fact was, they preferred persecuting an indivi-
dual, as in the case of Mr. Duffy, to the bringing forward
of any measure which might benefit the country. In his
(Mr. Grattan's) part of the country they were inundated
ny beggars from the east and west, who threatened by
their poverty to swamp whole districts. The deprecia
Lion of landed estates was, in consequence, really fright-
ful, and instances had occurred to his own knowledge
which would show, more than anything lie could say, the
condition of the country. In the county of Monaghan,
a property, which in 1345 was worth 1,0001., came down
in 1847 to 700/., in 1848 to 600/., and in January 1849,
to 5661., or more than one-half its original value. In the
county of Longford, a property in 1845, worth 1,500/. a
year, came clean in 1846 to 1,2001, in 1847 to 1,0001.,
and in 1848 to 8004 a yea-. In Cavan, another worth
in 1845, 1,1701. a year, fell in 1846 to 9401., in 1847 to
6001., in 1848 to 5001., and in the present year to 4001 a
year.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord not go to
sleep—(Laughter)—the Noble was napping; but let him
listen to these statements and tremble.—(Laughter.) He
knew of instances where gentlemen in the province of
Leinster taxed themselves voluntarily to an amount cf

I Is. in the pound, in order, if possible, to relieve the
country from the frightful calamity which pressed upon
her. He asked for some great comprehensive measure,
that might unite the common interests of the empire.

Sir R. PEEL—I am exceedingly sorry at having
heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hoar.)
lam exceedingly sorry that it was my misfortune to
have been present during that speech. lam most un-
willing that any impediment should be thrown in the
way of the way of the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman the
Solicitor. General bringing forward what I believe to be
n measure of the deepest importance to the welfare of
Ireland—viz., a measure for facilitating the disposal of
ineurnbered estates in Ireland—(hear, hear)—other-
wise I think the House would permit me to have some
opporq unity, l efore these Irish debates clos^, of rectify-
ing some great misconceptions which have taken place
with respect to the suggestions which I recently offered
—suggestions which 1 offered in no spirit of party feeling
—(Cheers)—from no wish to embarrass thr Majesty's
Government—(hear)—suggestions which I offered from
the deepest sympathy with the suffering condition of
Ireland, and from an earnest hope of contributing some-
thing to ameliorate her contlition.—(Checrs.) Of all the
misconceptions which have taken place, however, the
only one which I shall now notice is the one which the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) has fallen into—a mis-
conception of the utmost importance—which is calcu-
lated to excite the deepest feelings in Ireland—which it
is impossible for me to listen to and remain silent, for
fear an inference might be drawn that, having been pre-
sent, and having heard it, and remained silent, I acqui-
esced for one moment in the justice of it.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman seems to suppose that I made
some proposition, in a sectarian spirit, for the purpose
of depressing the Roman Catholics and driving them
out of their present holdings, with the view of substi-
tuting a Protestant population. Now, Si-, the very
last thing that would enter my mind would be to
injure the Roman Catholics by substituting a
Protestant population in their stead.—(llear, hear.)
My object was to elevate the Roman Catholics, to im-
prove their condition, and not to gain any paltry ad-
vantage by introducing in their place the members of
any other faith.—(Cheers.) When did the Hon. Gen-
t!. man hear trom me the proposition that, in case there
should be a redistribution of property, the Protestants
should have the advantage? Was I not aware that the
R ,man Catholics had a large amount of capital which
found no vent in the purchase of landed property? Did
he think I was not aware that it was stated by the Corn•
mission over which Lord Devon presided that one great
evil in Ireland was, that there was a large amount of
accumulated property in trace and commerce which found
co opportunity of investment in land? Does the Hon. Gen-
tleman suppose that, in ease of facilities being granted
for the purchase of land in Ireland, I wished to exclude
the Rowan Catholic merchants of Cork and Waterford

from having an opportunity of making an investment
which they cannot now make on account of the barba-
rous tenure of land? The lion. Gentleman says I wish
to drive the noblemen and landed gentry out of Ire-
land.

Mr. GR ATTAN—You said so.
Sir R. PEEL—No, Sir, I said no such thing. I wish
to drive out no man; I wish to do no violence to the
rights of property.—(Loud cheers.) But, what I say is,
that if there are nominal proprietors who have no real
interest in the land, who derive small incomes from it
that are frittered away, not in the improvement of the
land, but in law expenses in Dublin; that if I can give
them facilities for rescuing themselves from their em-
barrassed condition, and transferring their estates to
others who will parform the duties incumbent upon those
who hold land, I am not injuring them; I am, in fact,
doing them a benefit instead of an injury, and I am at
the same time conferring an advantage upon the country,
by enabling men with new capital and new hopes, new
feelings and new aspirations with respect to its applica-
tion, to occupy, to the extent which they can occupy,
consistently with the maintenance of the rights of pro-
perty, the encumbered and vacated soil. Injure the Roman
Catholic peasantry by the measure I proposed ! Why,
Exchequer y
unit h
oant ,
15a, afterter
pf
eo
ruaro
nssuwc ceerses i vderivyenearfsroomf
Sir, did I not hear the other night the Chancellor of the
onsea
their homes helpless and friendless ? Is that a state of
things which the Honourable Gentleman would wish to
retain ? I ask now if there is in Algiers or in the
Punjeub after your successful military operations, or in
any other portion of the civilized or barbarised world—
will you show me a country, I ask, in which 15,000
people have been driven helpless and homeless from
their houses, and exposed to the inclemency of the
weather ?—(hear, hear.) And yet here is one
union in which that has taken place. I con-
fess that ever since I heard it I have dwelt upon it in
the hope of hearing that it was untrue. Just consider
for a moment what is the case—that the strength of
the people having been diminished by four successive
years of penury and privation, there should be, not inten, not in twenty, but in one union,ls,ooo human beings
evictions,ejectments, and legal processes
driven out by
l lss and friendless.—( Hear, hear.)
from their houses, ho p
tions, my main object was to
When I offered my saggoefsthe people of England theremove from the minds
ain, after the great expenditure
pre-
judice which might rem
I was afraid that after expend.
which had taken place.
in Ireland from
000 0001. in rescu g
• 9 000 000/. or 10„
'Ding to contemplate
ing . , i,,ht be unwilling
her difficulties, they
h m°
—and my object was to re-
ale magnitude of the subject
above all—for I cared not
move
their
Prejudiceh;and, suggestion—to impress upon the
about my plan or my
notwithstanding the past ex-
House of Commons that,
point of justice
interest, in
ex-
penditure, it was your real
pecuniary considers-
pen ,
in point of
'n
and policy, as well as
tho condition ot Ireland, i
Lion, to apply yourselves to
other consideration to
respect to which I believe every
that, so far as English-
he subordinate—(Hear, hear)—that,
men are concerned, looking to the prospects of the
v
future, there is no question—not the navigation-laws
import-
nor any other—that approaches
it in point of
that if I can, con-
ance.—(Cheers ) What I said was,
sistently with justice to the nominal proprietors who are
facilitate the transfer f
encumbraneers upon the estates, 0_
their land to others who have the means, and who will
new
hopes, I shall
enter upon it with now views and
not only benefit these who are in this miserable condition
estates
on account of the encumbered position of their
transfer, but
and the existing legal difficulties as to their