The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

TR

niru aide the
ties Of House, tell him his motion was very
tha"‘.... he perfectly agreed in it, but he ►could not go iino
° same lobby as the Hon. l'sleinl:er fur the West Riding.
glffsatiras ter.
* ) Another Hon. Gentlemen on the other
ri el; a good Radical reformer, said the motion was quite
ttgeat—be.a.greed in every word of it—but svlie.n he saw
__ eet with the support of the Conservative party it
ZakB,:pos.sibl.e for him to vote for it. Now, he would
the as it right to play with the great intere
ts of
country in such a manner ?—(Hear, hear.) Inde•
Pendent Members had now more power, because it had
beat
found that a small compact body could always
di, t; detail a much larger one. They all knew what
qeeereat
s„ speeches they would hear from Honourable
teet-'l,7raen on the other side of the House on that sub-
heeabeere the Conservative party seated on the Tr,,easuerryo
iezt benches hear.) Their eloquent tonguA _
with 11°w—they keep the topic for a time to be used
iise itPower upon simple. people when the Whigs may
greste:sd
re tre n ch rianseerstetnc.t' than there
-os itZsieo
n.i
.a -a: om.
ipo
no wg
sett barren
yhaedoryteohec‘avrtacbsso dne.ost:
Of nien . an existed among b
doing ; they might very well discuss the est. mode. cfs
gentlell thing, but amidst tie it differences an ingenious
risothelrta might very well play off one again .
ease. ere and think he had given an answer to the
of the
story But the short and the IoU
shall
not hvras, that that House had to say, You
sat --'''v so ch money." No doubt th,,
q,„ ', would not arse to rest upen assertion on such a
11;s"" ; therefore he was prep:red with authority.
avoid auxioesly desired, on that °cession,
ho either infienreatory to
ti on he knew full well there existed a greater es i ecta-
or exaggerated laegiregan
then of relief to be derived from retr lichment amongst
0 e Mile than thee° sees any fonad.tioa for. More-
tiZ, Pubic thought that the whole amount of texa-
levie . '' . „s ceroplen ly wasted
fro„, „ the country a as e
~,aa the resources of the country its if suell an amount
Isr! thrown into the sea. But that was not the tact.
digartsrer the amount of texation, a great portion of it
rte
into the coat • •again. There existed it
I,r) •
htleacpsitY for exaggeration up ni the subject. All they 1
excest: Show was that the amount of taxation was in 1
did
, end thit the mode of levying it was unjust. ll,e
,esAnclaraTt•sretraeatinont° apply
his
ithequ;sl,ity ohservatiena to the Tres: a
More than t,) any other, but to show the
of taxation. Take, for example, the duty on
bee.hirlest priced printed cottons—it was 10 per cent.;
,s' on the very commonest kiud, which was worn by the
tent! poorest class, it was 50 per cent. H-s would be
ha not
that that duty was repealed I—yes, but they
. ....,i-
-hid einArepealed the principle on which the tax was
See ;i itgain the des- on leather was calculated by
shirt Now, every .one knew that a countryman'.
is es Weighed mere than 100. pairs of those worn by a
Cent,--(llear, hear.) cern On wane the duty was 100 per,.
i,beer of the people it
f,rlt• Stamp rd probate he would not waste the
fact
ot: thos House b touching on. But it was the
yt blishments of the country, of
, ' that the whole
tT1(141 kind and
would pitched t cohdedda
~..70t it
no o
confirmationhigh a rate.
of ;ii. first evidencefrom the journal which was the organ
‘ll the lateli e 3 Administration—viz the Quarterly nevicw,
Ithieh s lid:—" If we are to keep' our place (as a nation),
.itt is indispensably necessary that every incumbrinco
should be removr d, as well by individuals as by the Go-
vernment.e Every branch of the administration must be
ettritied ry department must submit to examination
424 -
.
most ancient of our institutions ought and could no
tenger support the burden of places or proceedings that
-taia possibly be dispensed a ith. No branch of those in-
ltil-tutihns ought to be touched that can be left alone; still
to Is an ire
so altered P.
erative necessity to submit many of them
exl , ion sad reduction." 11.0 hegieved that to
bylae
1:,,,,et1Y the state of the case, and unless that house,
1,74' strong resolution, compelled, if necessary, or
w'irrigthened the hands of the Government, if they, were
m ling to make those changes which were necessary—
t atter% must become worse. He was further strength-
;l:oe'lerit,4eheoyntraending the alterations and the reductions
a passage in a dispatch which had lately
tnoed,t presented to the Howe—a dispatch from Lord Elgin
metnadeedSaecdreetdatir,:ytifor the Colonies—in which he recora-
tount of the on upon all salaries above 1001., on ac-
btheeapoPUlati,,reVenue being below the expenditure and
ea 4 ill a state of distress. That ho held to
IDI tni,es""aaton of the step he recommended. The case
rs.c.ountry was quite in an analogous state. Lord
Greythatedtd not assent to the proposition when made in
claring
G ''l°°Y, but he did in another; for he found Lord
rey de
in the 6 that there should be a complete revision
tss e nancial condition of Jamaica. Ia Guiana, when
Port
Was
a threat of a stoppage of the supplies, a re-
tioußeas "'lade on the subject by a Committee of the
bee, Land, if he remembered rightly, that report had
thing,utrhawn up
taxatioatio by Sir Robert Peel) The next
of to onion--that
that he desired was an alteration in the mode
rt—that was by relieving the poor, and making
tiev, tirlt,_ Press more severely on the rich. To that the
girded f'tg that he had at heart, and that which he re-
res
ous,pf most consequence, was to take some mea-
That was,rutaliniihing the burden of the national debt.
measures he said, the great point, and, among other
ag,,ic,.,s, was this, gentlemen talked of the recovery of
tiklesal;are- It
was quite true that they could raise five
cis * the amount that they now did of consumable arti-
tdisofoul of the land—(Hear)—there could be no doubt at
that th/neati hut, at the same time, no one could doubt
value 0" '?...-Peniliture of capital would be greater than the
then
1141.. the preduce when it was raised. The only way
terest t'o3' ecadd give relief was to lower the rate of in-
ill such en ext t ; tcapital might be employed
Prod„e..., , la tea.
Ulm 1,71,e industry, where it was now employed in
slow
conclude "1 'h was non- prod uctive.—(llnar.) 11 e would
thew tl., with reading a passage from Burke, to
desired e nee"sity of supporting a Government when it
now to be enabled to carry such a resolution as ha
tier Areposed into effect. Instead, then, of attaching
in ensrftsl's-tY's Ministers, he wished to encourage them
serer' v°rllug the resolution which he now di I, and the
co
übtry. cement of which he believed to be necessary for this
The 0
th,t LIANcELLort of the EXCHEQUER observed
the II
on.
~. on. Gentleman, in bringing forward this
Upo, '4,, old net desire it to be understood as a censure
Go; the conduct of her iSlajesty's Government. The
tiesi:rnmant, during the last two years, had proved its
duere to enforce economy, by carrying into effect re-
ftitle l'unli as far as it was possible to effect them with a
ait regard to the efficiency of the public service, and
eel her than that he Was sure the Hon. Gentleman him•
11` Would not desire to carry them.—(Hear.) The
~:1- Gentleman had spoken of his desire to lower the
rite of duties imposed upon articles of consumption by
tse Poorer classes; he had complained that, comparing
Z
,e price of these articles with the duties, it was higher
iitall the duty upon articles of a higher price. The sub-
:et was one that had been much discussed, whether it
-as better to have. an ad valorem duty or a fixed and
tendency of all legislation was to get
r,ialito duty. The ten
'of an ad valorem duty, and to o ti is d lid as tending to
that
lasses. Ia several
promote the introduction into consumption of articles
at were used even by the poorer c - . . .
nted to in-
illBtailees where Committees had been appoi,
eseer__,y
quire Imo thesubject of ad valorem duties, they had
Which'". recommended a low rate and fixed duty as that
trlueereei f
was the most beneficial to the trade and com-
t ~ern. thia coantry.—(l-lear, hear.) The Honourable
takee-t--"I 111'4417,er; said that it would be desirable to
but thaexl-alteie - c)-
or rho mode of doi
n. Gentlemau
the Poor and impose it upon the rich ;
didnot tell them of the process
that the wl. 1 s
hosaid—
fewng that. This, however, „
e years had been in that direction Hardly ever was
.e
e 'QiideneY of their leislation for the last
:-11
_re a period in w so an amount of taxation
had been taken off techgreen largebody of the people, and its
Per
tthinaand bettyel ehnT t Iti fie
xyeesa rs 184 ei r
upon
')land 1849. The re-
fvs etion of taxation - come sad upon pro-
duction
in that time upon the raw materials 0
e Inaullfacytuorerstahnd upon articles of consumption by
then great bed
repealed; and th
VlOO,OOO/. SucheareePle' amounted to no less the.n
ryas the amount of taxes reduced or
or taxes inl
coed
e deficiency thus created was made up
pity, Thart'ew'a upon the richer classes of the comma-
tsended• The sthe
course the Hon. Gentleman recom-
which
the articles,axes used by the poor were these on
sum „a 0
rntide had been reduced or repealed, and the
lbed as the he
Perseus who ISP by taxes upon the 400,000 or 500,000
clesee Paid tile income tax, and who might be
'unless the classes of the community. Now,
they 5' doubled the •
were to ..... lneonae-tax, he did not see ow
aideib
Ilan, Gentieer further in the course proposed by the
diminish the n
Gentleman s (Hear, hear.) But then the Hon.
would
deb«,
Gentlemen . at it was indispensable to pay off or
Lon. Gentlem glut how was it to be done?
cl not sell their stock to nothing. The
but this he re au might be a better financier than be was
able to discoverii'tthsaY, that he himself had never yet been
thing without the e merle
by which he could buy any f
public were toemeey to pay for it.—(Laughter.) I
stock, it would he put money into his pockets to
.buy up
heavy terrns—thatimpossible to do so without laying on
o
that he told the His, to create a sinking fund; and t
an
said that
the Hon. Gentleman
producing power ofbe made five
times ereater than it this country might
consid'erable capital. velaise; but to do so would requirerxoc.
quer) did look forward (the Chancellor.. of the .
of h .
pital on the land, so to a judicious expenditure ens
meeting
the demands
ofas to render it more capable of
Hon.consumers; but to do that, the
Gentleman said there
rate of interest. The f must be a lowering of ill©
been low enough in rate
e interest, they all knew, had
it had been most thisdisastrous oeuesuntry, and the consequence ofd
pedulations. He had hear
numerous complaints in the had for 1 per ent, and City that money might be
of England and other even now, looking at the Bank
be no lack of
oitalquaaraters, there seemed to him to
to a lowering oft he rnd* the tendency even now was
quotations of the Shave MiaeralreY rate of interest. The
in railroads were ?isle., in dt showed that the shares
tendency to a lower rate Porficz.
tand that there was a
But then it might be said thet ntheeret*—(Hear, heir.)
to reduce its expenditure. Well, Governmentic ought
so. An Hon. Friend behind him said t?'), had hewn doing
so enough. Now he said that, not a they had not done
ago, the Government was not able to year
aalri and a half
mends made upon it from the manuracturiea t the de-
protect the lives and properties of those dwelling 'to
those manufacturing towns.—(Hear, hear.)
Islovrvith lyu
had made in the present year a reduction in the army to the number of 10,000 men, and a majority of that
House had decided that the reduction had been carried
far enough. There had been a reduction of 3,000 men
in the navy, and the opinion of the House was, that
these two reductions had been carried sufficiently tar,
Within the two years the amount of reduction in the
estimates was 2,360,0001, and when such was the me,
he did not think that they were open fairly to the
charge of being indisposed to make a reduction in the
expenditure of the country. On this point too a ma-
jority of the House had concurred with the Govern-
ment in declaring that it would not be advisable that
the reductions should he carried farther than they
had been. One Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hen-
ley) had proposed a reduction of salaries ; and he
knew that a large minority of that House had voted for
4 general reduction of salaries. Ile know also that no

take the years ISIS and go to 1830, and to consider the
proceedings of the Governments, the old Tory Govern-
ments of those days—Conservatives were not discovered
at that time. In 1830 the House saw two remarkable
events—a Government with an overflowing Exchsqeee,
and the Whigs with a majority on a motion for economy.
The Duke of Wellington's Administration in 1830 was dis-
placed, and it wan a very remarkable event, as it bore
upon an observation made by the lion. Member for
Mentrosc that evening—it was displaced on a motion
made by Sir 11. Parnell on the civil list of that day,
and it was a curious circumstance connected with that
vote and the subsequent proceedings of the Wbig Ad-
ministration, that although by that motion they voted
that the Government of that day was extravagant in a
civil list of 900,000/., having got a majority and turned
out the Government:, they within a few months brought
in the same identical civil list with a diminution of only
5 000/, and the only distinction was that part of it wes
made a permanent charge which was before granted only
for the life of the Sovereign. That was the proceeding
of a Whig Administration upon that occasion. Now,
he did accuse the Government of extravagance; for
from that tear to the present they had been increasing
the expenditure. At that time there was very nearly
3.00,000/. over the expendieure. That heel never
been seen during the Administration of Honourable
Gentlemen opposite [the Honourable Member was speak-
ing from the Opposition side of the House]; but, on the
contrary, from that time every one of our institutions
had been inert acing in its extravagance. At that
time the whole expenditure of the country was
49,000,000/. Last year it was 57.009.000/. And yet the
Chuncellor of the Exchequer considered this motion es a
charge against the Government. It was a charge against
them. Ile understood it as a charge against them, and
upon that ground he would vote for it. Could it be said
that an ordinary private man, when he found his daily
exFenditure growing from year to year beyond his means
of payment, did not look to his iecome and ask himself
what he could do to meet the expense absolutely neces-
sary for his concern ? Was this country in a position
to go on as it had of late years? It would not do at
that time to tell them that the Government had been ef-
fecting savings, ea some of their simple friends had been
suggesting; on the contrary, the country felt that day
after day, mid year after year, the expenditure of the '
country bad been increasing, and with obviously no ne-
cessity for any such increase. He knew it had often
been said that Earope was in a dangerous state, and that
a large expenditure was necessary for the purpose of
warding off danger, and that therefore we must retain
an immense war establishment. Now, what rational
ground was there for any such assertion? He would
take upon himself to say that never sinco England was
a kingdom had she been in such a situation of such perfect
security as at the present moment. The main was to
her a tower of strength, and even if any danger were to
he apprehended from,the hostility of Continental powers,
their present distractions were to this country a
source of additional security. It was, therefore, an
idle pretence, a purely fantastic idea, to talk of the
dangers by which they were surrounded, as a pretence
for augmenting the public expenditure. What had this
country to do with the causes of distraction which dis-
turbed the continent? The business with which Parha-
m:lit ought then to occupy itself was not foreign affairs,
hut the most effectual and judicious mode of cutting
down the public expenditure. They had a very expen-
sive amusement in the nautical evolutions of the Gallant
Admiral who had formerly made some evolutions in that
House. What was the use of having that Gallant Ad-
miral with a large fleet wandering about the narrow seas
and doing nothing, sometimes going to Lisbon and firing
off a little gunpowder? The people of England were
really behaving like persons who knew net how to teke
care of their money; according to the old phrase, as if it
were " burning a hole in their pockets;" as if they had
not a sufficient pauper population to take care of. Then
there was Ireland. They were obliged to pay her from
day to day, and this with not the slightest show of
economy, nor any the least opposition on the part of
Members of that House. Private individuals were ac-
customed to cut down their expenses within the limits of
their incomes; but the House of Commons never thought of
anything half so prudent. The army of this country
was such as had never before been maintained during •
peace. He said nothing of the army of India, because it was
maintained abroad; neither did he say anything of the
army maintained in Canada. If England dealt honestly
with her colonies she need not maintain any for their
use. If representative governments were given to the
whole of Australia from end to end, and giver. also to
New Zealand—if they reformed their colonial govern-
ments—they might at once bring home their troops. As
to Canada, if they could not keep it by the agency of a
Parliament, they could not hope to maintain it by the
ihrce of an army. When this country was at war, it
possessed an army and a navy sufficiently effective, and
the expense of it was not great, unless when we thought
proper to throw away money upon the Peninsula, and
otherwise to waste treasure by subsidizing foreign
powers. As he had before said, Indian warfare was not
, paid for by England; he should say nothing about the
justice or the expediency of that, but should confine
himself to asserting that it formed no draught upon the
Exchequer of England. If a man were to pass the globe
ell over he would find nothing but profound !race in all
the British dominions; and if, in the midst of this perfect
tranquillity, England were to pay 57,000,0001., what
would be her condition if she really went to war ?
The Right Honourable Member for Tam worth imposed
upon the country the income-tax, and when he (Mr.
Roebuck) asserted that it would be a permanent
impost, ho was sneeringly told that it would
be merely temporary. The Right Honourable
Baronet, with the plausible smile for which he was dis-
tinguished, repeated that it would very soon be re-
moved, and with the same smile, which seemed stereo-
typed on his countenance, he on a subsequent occasion
said the tax would not be for over. Would the present
Chancellor of the Exchequer tell the House that the tax
was a temporary impost? It was true the present Go-
vernmeet had tried to increase this tax. With the true
feeling of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, he considered
it the easiest mode of imposing taxes, and he (etr. Roe-
buck) considered it one of the best modes of doing so.
But the Chancellor of the Exchequer was afraid to per-
,ist in that proposition, for he must have known that a
large income-tsx would be the surest way to stimulate
the vigilance of the House of Commons, as it would touch
them and their constituents. But he repeated his dispo-
lion to favour dliact taxation rather than any other.
1 Upon these grounds he must vote for the motion of the
[ion. Member for Surrey, for it had become absolutely
necessary to excite the vigilance of that House and to
rouse the Government, which lived on from day to day
in constant terror of being out•voted. Nothing could be
more untrue than that party was dead in that House. It
was by accident he spoke from the place he now occu-
pied (on the Opposition side). The L ast trifle would
split the party in two. The Protectionists at one end
o .aioi
wc:
ptiyohnseeeudgnba
to
etiolin:ecee hat ,hcehelt
ehobcotet
hrnireccerhi mttybha.
behind
hnn
idNnt:dor
oisote,f the leading Opposi-
tionists who sat at the other, were as distinct as positive
'Membersawnh
and the
satth e could
awb whole
ovleeb
and
morend
Houseb e
.
the gangway. The bench opposite to him was to-
was but AS a nest of partizans. Ho really wished instead
of all this that there was something like a strong' Go•
yhrnment established. For his part, he would willingly
give up a popular for a strong Government. He should
gladly support a Government that had vigour enough to
carry out its own right intentions; bet he could not give
his support to those paltry, hesitating fears, that feeling
of shrinking from trouble, that self-deceit, which, like
the wild ostrich in the bush, bid its bead and thought it
concealed its body. If he could force out such a Govern-
ment and force in a strong ono, he would most willingly
do so, and, therefore, he gave his cordial support to the
motion of the Hon. Member for Surrey.
Lord J. RUSSELL said those who at all consider the
speech of my Hon. Friend the Member for Surrey must
admit that he did not mean to bring any charge against
the present Government, for my Hon. Friend had him-
self said so most distinctly Then if there has been no
charge conveyed in the motion, and if it has not been
accepted by my Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of
the Exchequer as a charge against the Government—if
those, also, who this evening debated the question
were also agreel in not regarding it in the light of a
censure, then I venture to think myself warranted in
saying that no sort of censure has been intended. But
nothing less would please the Hon. Member for Sheffield
than to take the motion in a sense totally different from
that which the Honourable Mover himself intended and
plainly professed. That Honourable Gentleman would
take it to be a censure, and insisted upon his right to
take advantage of the opportunity which that Tinton
gave him to speak of what he called the imbecility of
the present Administration, and to express his earnest
wish that a strong Government could be found. Now
it would be difficult to imagine that the Honourable
Member would regard anything as a strong Government
unless it were to be an Administration consisting of
himself and no one else ; for, of course, he could not
support those who differed from him, and there was
scarcely any one who agreed with him. The Honour•
able Gentleman maintains his own opinions honestly
and independently, but I believe that there is not any
set of Gentlemen in this House who agree with the Mem-
ber for Sheffield, so that he clearly could not be satisfied
with any Government excepting one which should begin
and end with himself. As to the motion of my
.Honour-
able Friend the Member for Surrey, though itis not a
censure on the Government, it, nevertheless, is one to
which I cannot give my assent. His resolution
is in these words:—" That whereas a great amount of
taxation is levied upon the people than is rhquired_
in for
the good and efficient government of the United king-
dom; and whereas large sums are expended support-
ing needless places, extravagant salaries, and unneces-
sary works and establishments; and whereas the present
taxation of the country depresses all classes, and espe-
cially the labouring classes, by diminishing the
.fnd
for the employment of productive labour, it is the opunon
of this House that adequate means should be forthwith,
adopted to reduce the expenditure of the Government:
My Hon. Friend has spoken in his resolution as hold-
ing the opinion that in the present session the policy and
measures for which lie contends ought to have been
carried; and that, I apprehend, is not so much a c, insure
on the present Government as it is a condemnation of
the House itself. It condemns the manner in which the
votesi of this House have been given, and the way in
watch its proceedings have been conducted—for it
asserts that after six months of deliberation the House
has in the present session not performed its duty; and,
again, after six months of deliberation, my Hon. Friend
having put off his motion until the present evening, now
comes forward to say that 500 Members of this House
who have voted upon the questions brought before
them, and the greater part of whom are now out
of town, have, during the whole of the session, been
misapplying the powers with which their constituents
intrusted them. It cannot fail to appear very extraor-
dinary that my Hon. Friend should now bring forward
this accusation against the whole House, not only when
a very large proportion of them, probably 500 Members,
but also at a time when some of the ablest debaters in
Parliament, were absent. Are we not, then, driven to
the conclusion that he takes advantage of the thinness

inconsiderable portion of the minority had CO voted in
order that if the motion were carried, they might graft
upon it some amendment of their own. The fact was,
that the salaries of those in public offices, Lot taking into
account the advantages they bad previously enjoyed, and
of which they were now deprived, were lower nowthan
before the war took plecs. Then they had dianntshed
and consolidated several offices. In the Pay Office the
reduction amounted to not less than 16,000/. There was
a reduction of 35 persons. There was a reduction of 47
per cent. in the whole amen nt of the salaries, and a re-
election of 33 per cent. as to the persons employed. A
similar inquiry had been carried en in,the Home-office,
and there the reduction amounted to 3,774/. a year.
Gentlemen talked of the enormous numbers employed in
the Government. The whole anal-dist Anent of the Home-
office was 18, of the Treasury 24, exclusive of the Par-
liamentary officers. Now, the whole number employed in
all departments connected with the Treasury was 130 (as
we understood). and in the French Treasury the number
of clerks was not less than 500. Cemparitea themselves
with other countrise, their neiehbours, he believed
there were one-fourth less employed in England. The
reduction in the Mint was 10,0001., in the Ordnance-
office 4,000/. As to patrenage, he had himself an office
in his gift of 6001. a year, and he abolished it. For
Chelsea Hospital the sasistant-secretaryship had been
nut an end to, and a saving effected cf 1,700/. a year.
In the Stationer) -office there was a saving of 31,0001. in
the priotiog, and ultimately of 50,000(. The attention
of the Governmant was unremittingly directed to the
same subject. And Low he must remark that et ditin
cults was cawed by that House itself. It turns were
called for, and then cemplaiets were made of a delay in
those returns, when it was impossible speedily to comply
with such orders with la cluced esteblishinents, They
were at one time told toey were looking for patronage,
and then they were pa eased to appoint CornuaissnmPre.
As Chancellor of the Exelicquer, he must say that the
greater part of his oflieial life had been passed in re-
sisting the pressure of that House for additienal expen-
diture. He could sesere the Hon. Gentleman that upon
this point the Government required not to be urged;
that they were detf..rininod to make every reduction that
was consistent with the interests of the country. As the
resolution expressed or implied a censure upon the pee-
senntn.d the past Governments, he could riot so far agree
with it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME gf4e, he said, almost ashamed to address
the House, as lie had to observe upon statements that
had bean four tines made in that House and four times
contradicted. As to the Hon. Gentlemen (Mr. Dr:la:-
mond), lie had scarcely done justice to his own motion.
Upon this subject of economy the House of Commons
was to blame far more than Ministers. Lest year, when
the renewal of the income-tax was proposed, and an in-
crease was proposed, the House of Commons expressed
its opinion so plainly against the increase that the
Noble Lord itnmediatAy "tried back"—the proposal was
revoked with'.ut a division being come to. lle-admitted
that the present as well as the past Gceernment had
made great and economical changes.—(flear, hear) He
did not deny the benefits arising from the financial re-
ferais which had been already effected, but they did nut
go far enough. The great cost of the army and navy
must be revised before any thing like satisfactory CCU-
nowy could be established in the rridtary and naval
expenditure of the country. In the civil branches of
those departments retiring allowances were given
to men who, though in perfect health, were super-
annuated after a certain period of service. The
superannuation allowances, also, made to admirals,
were mast exnnsvagtnt. The Right. Hon. Baronet had
said that the country ought to be satisfied with the
economical changes that had been already effected; hut
he (Mr. Hume) denied that they had any right to be so
satisfies]. The expenditure of the country had been
raised from an average of 52,000,000/. sterling to that of
57,000,000/. witl in the last four years. Was that o
ciuso of satisfaction? He contended that in order to
el-feet satisfactory financial reforms they must reduce
the cost of the army and navy; they must also make the
colonies support themselves and finally they must re-
model their whole system Of taxation. He should cor-
dially support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. EwART thought that these effarts to reduce
taxation should proceed in the direction of those taxes
which pressed en the industry and commerce of the
country, particulary the Excise duties, which were the
most oppres,ive that were ever imposed on any country.
Mr. M. GIBSON had on is former occasion, when the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) had brought for-
ward a motion relating to financial reform, moved the
previous question, because the motion being only for a
Committee of the House, and the objects which the lion.
Gentleman had shadowed forth in his speech on that
occasion, as those which he would seek to attain in
Committee, being such as he (Mr. Gibson) could not
agree with, he could not consent to go into Committee
upon them. On the present occasion, however, as the
Hon. Gentleman sought in his motion to pledge the Hous e
generally to a resolution that there existed a large mar-
gin in the public expenditure of the country which might
be cut down without injury to the effective government
of the country, he at once acceded to tho proposition,
because it concurred with his own convictions. It was a
proposition which might be regarded as instructional to
the Government, encouraging them to go on in the course
of retrenchment they had entered upon, and could not
be considered in the light of a vote of censure upon
them, or indeed upon any Government, but rather upon
the system which had hitherto been allowed to exist in
the country. It would Strengthen the hands of the
Noble Lord when urged in the recess by military
and naval men to increase expenditure in th ,se
departments, if he could point to a resolution on the
journals of the House of Commons recommending re-
trenchment. Ha (Mr. M. Gibson) was in a difficulty
when he defended the Government, for nothing wenn]
persuade men that there was economy until there was a
reduction in taxation. The Hon. Member for .Montrose
alluded to the civil liet—a very delicate question, a large
proportion of it being cut of the control of the Crown,
and apportioned by Parliament for the payment of public
officers. All the Hon. Member for Montroie required,
however, was that those receiving money from the civil
list should prove their services; he would not pay use-
less officers, and be would relieve the civil list of such
persons. No man could conscientiously say that there
existed no needless officers, no useless places, no extra-
vagant salaries. There was the Lord-Lieutenancy of
Ireland, which cost 150.000/. a year. The spirit of the
times was adverse to that needless pageant, and the in-
tercourse between the countries was so ready, that the
government of Ireland could be readily carried on from
London. Then there was the slavestrade squadron, a
most unnecessary expense. All these facts justified a
vote in favour of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, and the
eti3.war House
eprnee
had
enewdxsoopdmouei
of the
nd,
dti
hcue soeidtsmt
diminished.
country
uidnff
ry
ot s l
hadf
whence
i fi
n i
ct r
ae
eat ivit
d might. e
as d
hale, proposition
nomilitarychances
eyf
prFapivareaotironsisx hf,u,rndwredr_muileliaotni; had
een expended in preparations for wor—nearl the
whole of tho national debt. He should °therefore sup-
port the motion.
Colonel THOMPSON said, that if he might be per-
mitted to state the points upon which he agreed with,
and differed from, the Hon. Gentleman, with a view to
giving his vote in support of the Hon. Gentleman's mo-
tion, he would say that the lion. Gentleman had one
foot of iron upon which he might stand in defiance of
all arguments against his motion, and that was, that
there was not a fair partition of taxation on the working
classes. Now, if they looked to the taxation upon such
an article as tobacco, they would find that by the manner
in which that taxation was made the working man paid
eleven times as much as the rich consumer of that arti-
cle. And when he heard the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer say there was a sort of balance in the case of the
income-tax, he could not agree to it until he found that
the rich man paid something like eleven times as much
as the poor man. As to the policy of paying off the na-
tional debt, he thought they must some day have a
friendly passage of arms. lie could not understand how
it was to be paid off exec pt at the market value, end he
feared that if it were paid off we should be told to-mor-
row, " Oh, you are a happy nation—you have no debt;"
and the first thing we should do would be to get into
debt again.—(A laugh.) He would Oro take that op-
portunity of saying that Hon. Gentlemen ought not to
be too hasty in forming an opinion in consequence of
what was considered as the repert of the African Com-
mittee. In the main, that report was the opinion of the
Chairman ; for generally there was an equal division
of the Committee, arid he then gave his casting vote
lle (Colonel Thompson) hoped, therefore, that the re-
port would go forth to the world as the opinion of the

Chairmen.
Lord R. GROSVENOR thought one thing was ev
dent—that there was a Brest difference of opinion as to
the remedy by which the evil complained of was to be
met. To the revolution he thought there was no sub-
stantive objection, hut the arguments in support of it
ought to be borne in mind, or it might give a notion to
the public out of deers that the present Government
and oth(es before them had been txceedingly remiss in
endeavouring to reduce taxation—a charge which he
thought could not be fairly made. The House would
not fail to observe that the Hon. Member for West
Surrey and his Ri.,;ht Hon. Friend agreed upon this
subject. His Right Ron. Friend made no objection to a
res, lotion pledging the Government or the country to a
reduction of expenditure, and ho himself thought a
seluttoa might be prepared which would be unani-
mously agreed to by that House. He would therefore
suggest that that resolution should- run thus :—" That
whereas no greeter amount of taxation ought to be
levied upon the people than is recoired for the good and
efficient government of the United Kingdom; and
whet eas it is expedient that inquiry should take place
whether there may not be some needless places, some
salaries too large, and some works that may be unne-
cessary—it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant
superintendence ought to be exercised over the expen-
diture, so that every reduction may be made that
will not be of detriment to the public service." If the
lion. Geetleesen would not consent to adopt that altera-
tion he (Lord R. Grosvenor) would move it as an emend-
ment to the Hen. Gentleman's motion.
Mr. DRUMMOND was understood to decline adopt-
ing the alteration proposed by the Noble Lord, and it
was then put from the chair as an amendment.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, surely the House was not going
to adept such a re
solution as was proposed by the Noble
Lord, for it wns the identical proposition that that House
ought to de its duty—that whereas there were many
needless places and so on, therefore the House ought to
be vigilant in reducing the expenditure. Could the
House understand a proposition of that sort? He could
understand the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for West •Surrey, for that stated distinctly
and categorically that the expenditure was too great,
and he hoped the House would not for an instant pass
over whet was a real and substantive proposition, to ac-
cept one which was evidently put forward as a makeshift
and excuse to escape from a plain-spoken and proper Proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
thatl this was a sort of charge against the Government.
Ile ('dr. Roebuck) accepted it in that meaning. lie be-
lieved that it was and that it ought be a charge against
the Government, and he would ask any one who wished
f9r it sort of histuige,l geeellection for the bolydays to

E ST) N. LONDON, FRID A Y EVENING, JULY 20, 1849

of business connected with payments, in cases with which
my Rifsht Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer
is aequaitred, we introduced regulations by which those
offices have been abolished as they fell vacant, or have
been united with other o:fie-a in the Treasury. I say,
then, that I can have no objection to any general reso-
lution with respect to these offices. The Hon. Member
for Montrose has said that our expenses have been in-
creasing. It is certainly true, with regard to the year
1847 and the beginning of 1848, that there was an in-
crease of expenditure; but the great increase of expense
was in the estimates of 1845. which were very fully
explained to this House, and which the House affirmed.
It was explained to the House that an increase was
proposed in the navy for the purpose of defence, and the
House—l think without any opposition—affirmed the
necessity of that increase.—(!{ear, hear.) I believe
there was nothing beyond a very insignificant opposition
to that proposal. At present there is a contrary dispo-
sition, ttild the House of Commons now calls upon the
Government to make reductions in the estimates. Well,
at the end of last session, and in the course of the present
session, we have made very considerable reductions.
The tessluetions stated in the budget of 1848.49 were
828,0001. In the estizialtes of 1849 50 the reductions were
to the amount of 1.511,455!, and there has bsen a further
reduction in the Oseloance estimates, making a total of
2,361.8241—(Hear.) But, while wo have been malting
these reductions, r e are constantly told that we are
always increasing our expenditure. It is said, almost
every night, " You may require as many troops as
you have had, hut why should you be constantly in-
creating them?" My answer is that wo are not
incri acing, but in the progress of reducing the number;
and I therefore con iier that it would not be wise, on
the part of this House, to cenie to a general resolution,
which is proposed, not as a vote of censure upon the G
vernment, but which would bo a vote of censure passed
by the Members present upon the Members absent.—
(" Hear, hear." and laughter.) I own that in that view
I do not th;nkit would be eithera very wise or a very fair
course of proceeding. I think we should rather adopt
some resolution which would convey the general sense
of the House when the House is full, and that, with re-
rweelasihdoubold.
fore us. The Right Honourable Member for Manchester
oure th the
dc
ea
irsyi ionug
uouut of f
usrutchhe
ra
estimates
on
n
has told us that the people say, " You tell us you are
making great reductions, but how is taxation lessened?
That Right Hon. Gentleman might reply, " If you go
to the market you will find that prices are reduced in
1849 very much below what they were in 1841, and
s
reduction is owing in many instances to the abolitys or
reduction of duties either under the Government of the
th
Right Honourable Member for Tamworth, or under that
of the present Ministry." I trust that if the House
comes to any resolution they will rather adopt the mo-
tion of the Noble Member for Middlesex, for I think it
would be unwise to pass a resolution in such sweeping
terms as that of the lion. Member for Surrey, which can-
not lead to any practical result.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPOONER thought the Noble Lord ought to
met the motion of his Hon. Fricad the Member for
Surrey with
.a direct negative, but the Noble Lord, in-
stead of taking that course, had advised the House to
adopt the vague proposition of the Noble Lord the
Member for Middlesex. His Hon. Friend had said that

of the House at the end of the session to ;bring forward
a motion which he could not hope to propose with equal
success at any other period of the year ? It is at this
time and under these circumstances that he brings his
motion before the House. Assuming, then, for a mo-
ment that my Hon. Friend could carry his resolution, I
cannot suppose that such a decision could come before
the ceuntry with any weight, seeing that at best it would
only express the sense of a vi ry small number of the
Members of this House. But even in the existing con-
dition of the House the motion, in its present state, is
hardly one which we could adopt ; nevertheless, it is one
which the Hon. Member for Sheffield says he will sup-
port, though he seems to justify his vote upon rather ex-
traordinary grounds. He says that Sir H. Parnell moved
a resolution in 1830 which Lord Althorp, in 1831, did
not practically carry out. Now, supposing the state-
ments of the lion. Member for Sheffield to have been well
founded with respect to both, I do not see how that
ought to induee! the House to come to a vote of censure
on the present Government. The fact is, however, that
the feints to which the Hon. Member for" Shan't:ld re-
ferred were not urgte d in 1830 and 1831, a; he repre-
sented them to have been. The leading Whigs of that
period, Lord Brougham and others, objected to c2rta:n
expenses being included in the civil list, which in all
previous times had formed part of that branch of the
public expenditure. They objected to apparent addi-
does being made to the household and personal expenses
of the Sovereign which properly did not belong either
to the one or the other. They argued the question on
two grounds—one was that all charges on the civil list
should, according to the previaus arrangement, expire
with the life of the Sovereign—the other was that means
should be taken to do away with the iefluence of the
unfounded assertion that 900,0031., to which the charges
on the civil list amounted, was a sum which the actual
expenses of the Crown required—whereas the personal
expanses of the Sovereign and the dignity of the Crown
could be and were maintained at less than half that
amount of expenditure. That was the light in which
the subject had been regarded by the Whigs of that
period, and the House of Commons engaging
in an irquiry on that subject, referred the question
to a Select Committee, with power to send for persor.s,
papers, and records. Upon the appointment of that Com-
mittee the Wellington Administration resigned their
offices. But, even on the Hon. Member for Sheffield s
own showing, there is no reason why the present vote
should be agreed to by the House, and there certainly is
less reason for it when the history of those transactions
comes to be explained. Accordingly, the civil list was,
at the period to which I have been referring, so settled
as that during the reign of William IV. the amount was
considerably less than in the preceding reign. At the
commencement of the present reign it was still further
reduced, and therefore the events connected with the
accession of the Whigs to power and the resignation of
their predecess irs, in 1830, ought not to induce the
House to assent to the motion of my Hon. Friend the
Member for Surrey. As to the grounds that have been
laid for that motion, T cannot agree to the doctrine put
forward by my Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose,
who repeats what he has so often before stated as his
settled conviction, that if the gross amount of the taxes
be not lowered the people of this country can have ex-
perienced no relief. [That W IS, said Mr. Hums, not
precisely the statement that he had made. lie said that
relief had not been given to the people by lowering the
whole amount of taxes that they paid.] But if there
were any value in that argument it was this, that taking
off taxis di I not give the people any relief. It has never
been maintained by us, that taking oil taxes eventually
diminished the gross amount of taxation to an equal
amount; but I hope the house will do us the justice to
remember that we did not merely change texes,—that
is, not all that has been done, f e• every one must recol-
lect that Parliament took off more taxes than were im-
posed; and further, there ware other cases,—there were
eases of total abolition. Surely it will not be said that
by see'a m mstire3 th.e people were net relieved, even
though the revenue might still remain at the same
amount. Now I cannot help reminding lion. Members
of some of the charges that have been effected. On salt
there has been a reduction to the amount of 3,000,0001.
It once bore a price of 15s. a bushel, and I now learn
from a person very largely engaged in that trade, that
he can now purchase it for 61 a bushel instead f 153.
This is taking off duty to the amount of 3,000 per cent.
If, then, when 3,000,0001. were taken off, the revenue in
a short time rose to its original height, it was not owing
to the unaltered state of the taxation, but in consequence
of the riches of the country. The people had been re-
relieved to a great extent, but in a short time the gross
revenue regained its previous position. The tax on
sugar has also been reduced from 3.1. a pound to
The poor man can now have it for 40.; surely that is
a relief, and if, notwithstanding, that he paid 4id.,
the wealth .of the c ountry still continues to be
such that the whole revenue remains of the
same amount as before, that fact surely affords
no proof that the people had not at that
time been relieved, or that their burdens still re-
mained equal to what they had previously been. I can-
not understand how the Hon. Member goes on repeat-
ing that the taxes are just the same as before merely
because the total amount of the revenue remained un,
changed. On the contrary, Ido believe that the largest
amount of taxation which the country has paid is but a
proof of its riches and prosperity—that it was better off
than before ; and there can be no doubt that the Ame-
rican and the French wars which added so largely to
our public debt, have but afforded proofs of the great
resources of the country ever since peace has been re-
established. The taxes on salt, the taxes on candles, the
taxes on leather, the taxes on coals carried coastwise,
have been removed. There has been a diminution of
the taxis on sugar and beer—all these are matters which
Che poor man consumes, and which paid heavy duties
before we undertook those unfortunate and mistaken
wars with America and France. But, Sir, having taken
off those taxes, and having taken them off consistently
with maintaining a considerable military establishment,
some say much too large a Military establishment, and
consistently with the credit of the country, the lion.
Member for Surrey asks us) adopt some scheme by
which we may be relieved from what he rightly considers
the great burden of the country, viz., the Him of upwards
of 28,000,000/. annually which we pay as the interest
of our national debt. Now I own, that while I think
the wars I have mentioned were unnecessary, while I
think we never ought to have entered into a war with
our people iu America—(Hear)—and while I think it
was quite unnecessary to go to war with the French when
they established a republic—and that prudent eon-
, duct would have saved us from those wars,—l say the
nation is now bound by faith and by a regard to policy,
if not to honesty, to pay the interest of the debt it has
incurred.—( [leer, heir.) Well, if that be the case, I
own I do not believe there is any contrivance—any sort
of hems pocus—by which, if you are to pay the interest
of the debt, and to be liable to that debt, you can get
rid of the burden of it. Any scheme to raise an amount
of taxation to pay off that debt would either produce
such an immense amount of taxation as the country
would not tolerate, or after two or three shifts you would
find you had exactly the same burden to bear as was the
case before. There is only one way of dealing with this
debt, and that is regularly to pay the interest of it.—
(dear, hear.) If you have a surplus employ that sur-
plus to a moderate amount, if you please, in paying off
some of your debt; but I believe, with the Hon.
Member for Dumfries, that we made a useful change
when we abolished the sinking fund, which would
never have materially diminished the capital of our
debt, in order to enable us to take off taxes by the
removal of which the country has become much richer,
and is much better able to bear the interest of the debt
than if those taxes had been retained. But, admitting
that the debt must rc. main, and that there is no ingenious
contrivance by which we can get rid of the burden, if
we maintain the public faith, we are told by the Hon.
Member for Sheffield (411 r. Roebuck), that the army is
a great deal too large, and that it ought to be consider-
ably reduced. I must say with respect to the army
maintained in the United Kingdom and its colonies, that
we have this year reduced it by no less than 10,000 men.
I certainly consider that such a reduction made in one
year is a very considerable reduction.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Sheffield has said—following
others who frequently made the same assertion, though
I never heard anything advanced in proof of it—that if
we did but govern our colonies well, and give them re-
presentative institutions, wo should have no need of our
army. Why, these Hon. Gentlemen suppose that our
army is maintained for the purpose of, keeping down the
people of the colonies. Then, why not ieduce the number
of troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth? But we do not
keep troops at Portsmouth and Plymouth because the
people of those towns are disaffected, and we wish to re-
strain them by military force. We keep troops at Ports-
mouth and Plymouth to defend those places, because
we consider their defence to be essential to the safety of
the country; and on the same ground we have troops in
Bermuda and other possessions, to defend those colo-
nies. In some instances, no doubt, when there are dis-
sensions in our colonies, those dissensions might break
out into disturbance, and the troops are of use for main-
taining the peace in case of any such disturbances. The
Hon. Member for Sheffield has said that if we gave re-
presentative institutions to the colonies we might dimi-
nish our army • but it is remarkable that the Governor
of New Zealand entertains the opinion that with repre-
sentative institutions there would be much more danger
of disturbances among the natives of that colony than
there is at the present time. I have always maintained
that we ought, as far as possible, to establish represen-
tative institutions in our colonies, and the only question
is ,with regard to particular colonies, whether they can
or cannot bear representative institutions. Now, with
regard to the question of salaries and offices, if a resolu-
tion were submitted to the House lik that which my
Noble Friend the Member for Middlesex has proposed,
which wily implies that salaries ought to be reduced,
and that offices ought to be abolished whenever
there is reason for taking such a course, I think—
the Government being disposed to act upon
that principle—that I could have no objection to the
House affirming such a principle. But I conceive that
we are not at all liable to the charge of wishing to keep
up offices when they are unnecessary. Ido not think
any proposal was ever made in this House to reduce the
number of the Commissioners of Stamps and Taxes and
of the Excise; and yet the appointment of those Cotn-
missioners was, in the way of patronage, about the most
desirable patronage any Minister could possess.—(ilear,
hear.) Now what have we done? We had no pressure
upon that subject; but we reduced the number of Com-
missioners of Stamps and Taxes and Excise from twelve
to seven, abolishing five Commissioners, and of course
parting with a great dell of patronage which belonged
especially to the First Lord of the Treasury.—(l-lear,
hear.) '!'hat, I say, is some proof that we are not in-
disposed to measures of economy and reduction. Then
with regard to Masters in Chancery, last year one of
those °Mors became vacant. I asked the Lord Chan-
cellor whether it was necessary that it should be filled up.
He said it was not necessary. No motion was made in
this House on the subject, but we abolished that
Mastership in Chancery, and I thereby parted with
the patronage of the appointment. So with respect
to several offices in the Treasury for the transaction

taxation pressed very heavily upon the industry of the
country, and in that statement he (Mr. Spooner) fully
concurred. He did not agree, however, in the reasons
which had been assigned by some Hon. Gentlemen fer
that pressure, for he beli• ved it was occasioned by the
system of free trade. They had taken off the Customs'
duties which pressed upon the foreigner, and had im-
posed duties upon their own native industry.—(Hear,
hear) He considered that they ought to place a tax
upon every foreign article imported equivalent to the
taxation borne by the producers of this country, The
only persons who had benefited from the recent com-
mercial policy of the Government were those who had
fixed salaries and incomes, while they had inflicted upon
the productive and industrious classes a serious and
cruel injustice. He would support the proposition of
his Hon. Friend the Member fur Surrey, and he called
upon the House to reject the amendment, which was a
complete evasion of the cieestion.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER wished to explain the grounds
on which he intended to vote for the motion of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Drummond). The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had stated, in reply to the arguments of that
Hon. Gentlemen on the subject of salaries, that official
salaries ware in the aggregate less now than they were
at the end of the American war; but he (Mr. Christo-
pher) wished to know whether, with reference to the
prices of articles of consumption, these salaries were not
much higher now than they were ten years ago.—
(Hear, hear.) Considering that the policy of the last
and the present Governments had been to make al:
articles of consumption cheap and money dear, it did nol
require any long argument to prove that persons re,
ceiving official salaries were benefited by those changes
—(Hear, hear.) That was a sufficient reason for the
House to interfere and to reduce their salaries in accor
dance with the existing state of things in the country.
The amendment proposed evaded the question altogether.
It asked the Government to exercise a supervision over
the expenditure ; but as the Government professed to do
so already any resolution of that kind was not wanted.
What was required was for the House to coma to a re-
solution that under the altered circumstances of the
country, brought on by recent legislation, it would not
saection the same salaries as were given during a dif-
ferent state of things, and public opinion was so Etrong
on this point that, it Government did not come forward
with a proposition of the kind, either in the present or
next session, still it would be utterly impossible
for Parliament to oppose a very material reduction.
Mr. HAWES wished to correct a statement made by
the lion. Member for Surrey. He understood the Hon.
Member to state that certain reductions were proposed
by the Governor of Trinidad which the Noble Lord at
the head of the colonial department refused to sanction.
The Hon. Member was in error, for no reductions had
been proposed by the Governor of Trinidad which did
not meet in principle, thought n regard to the extent (as
we understood) there might be some question, with the
sanction of the Noble Earl; and he could assure the
Hon. Member that, as far as the Noble Earl was con-
cerned, whenever well-considered reductions were pro-
posed, they would not meet with opposition.
Mr. BANKES expressed his surprise that the Noble
Lord the Member for Middlesex should have brought
forward his amendment without giving notice of it. Hiv-
ing heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
he undoubtedly understood that the Government meant
to offer no opposition to the motion; and having been
absent from the House for some short space of time, he
was astonished on his return to find an amendment
moved by the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex.
That amendment gave an opportunity to Hon. Members
of slipping through tho question; but as he was not
prepared for any evasion of the question, he should give
his vote for the original motion. The time had come, he
thought, when Parliament was called on to give an aye
or no decision on the question whether, under the exist-
ing circumstances of the country, a searching inquiry
and economy with respect to these matters was not re•
quired. He should be heartily sorry if the Government
had no serious objection to the motion, that they should
at the present moment endeavour to gat rid of it by a
side wind, for such was the character of the present
amendment.—(Hear.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND, in reply, observed that there
was no intention on his part to misrepresent the conduct
of Lord Grey, but he thought that what had fallen from
the Under-Secretary for the Colonies mad s more
strongly for his argument.—(Hear, hear.) It was unjust
of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to say
that he had taken advantage of the absence of Members
to bring forward the question, for the fact was that he
had urged the matter on the attention of the House last
session, and twice during the present. With regard to
the national debt it hal been said that that was an advan-
tage to the public, though, if the same rule were to apply
to the nation as to individuals, it would not be so consi-
dered, for it was always thought to be an advantage to
gentlemen having mortgages on their estates to pay them
off. In conclusion, he declared that he did not bring the
motion forward as a censure on the Government, and ho
believed that no `gentleman on either side of the House,
with one exception, thought it had that tendency, either
directly or indirectly.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... 71
For the amendment... ..• 68
Majority for the motion ... 3
announcement of tho numbers was received with
Tie
cheers.m

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND).
Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in moving for leave to bring
in a Bill to make better provision for the administration
of fiscal affairs in counties, counties of cities, and coun-
ties of towns in Ireland, said that he did not propose at
that late period of the session to proceed with the Bill,
but merely to introduce it, so that it might be printed
and its various provisions considered during the recess.
The object of the Bill was to do away with the grand
juries in Ireland, as the Board which he wished to have
established by this Bill wou'd be more capable of at•
ten ling administration of counties, counties of cities, end
counties of towns in Ireland, than the grand juries had
hitherto done, and this he felt fully assured would con-
tribute very much to the interest of the Irish labourer.
He, therefore, proposed to introduce this Bill.
Mr. MONSELL said that he felt glad that the system
of anomolous taxation that hitherto prevailed in Ireland
would be put an end to by this Bill, and hoped that the
grand jury-rates and the poor-rate would be collected by
the same officers, as such a system would greatly reduce
the expenditure on the poor of that country.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he hoped that the
opinion of the Committee would be attended to next
session on that point, and was happy to find that this
Bill was agreeable to all the Irish Members. He then
proposed a Bill for the prevention of Accidents and
Dangers to Passengers upon Public Roads and Highways
in Ireland, and for the Punishment of Offences relating
thereto. The Bill was then read a first time. He then
brought on the following Bill for promoting the Public
Health in Ireland, which was read a first time. He was
happy to say that there was springing up in Ireland a
desire for the promotion of such measures as seemed
calculated to augment and ensure sanitary regulations.
He was anxious to draw the attention of the House to
what had been done in Dublin on this subject. Th
ee
complaints against public nuisances in the past; ear wer
7,105, and owing to the labours of Sir Edward Burrows
and the Sanitary Commission, the improvements which
had been effected were of the most ble kind.valu_
es
ee-
subject was one of the most vital importaLdo,hend r
trusted
cially to the poorer classes in Ireland;
that the Bill which he now t.isked the eave of the House
to introduce would meet wit
that degree of f pourable
attention to which it was entitled.
Mr. MONSELL had heard with great satisfaction the
sentiment now expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet;
but he must say, that so long as the public gaols in Ire-
land were left in the unwholesome state in which they
are at present, by reason of overcrowdingof transports,
and against which he had often, in the course of the
present session, complained, he thought that the measure
proposed would fall short of its proposed effeet. Another

point which he was desirous to direct attention to was the toast of the "Battle of the Diamond;" and, under
intramural burials, which ought; es affecting the public the circumstances of this case should they deal more
health, to be done away with. A third point was, tho tonaerly wits Lord Roden? Ile intended next Monday
nocesssity of a mcacure for the registration of births, to able the Government whether these magisterial de•
Unguents any longer retained the commisson of the
deaths, and marriages in Ireland,
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he had pre- peace?
pared a all on the subject of the state of the gaGls in Mr. NICHOLL hoped that the House would not pre-
Ireland, which he hoped to be able to introduce early in judge any individual. If the Government failed to do
the next session. With regard to the question of in- their duty, it would be their duty in an ensuing session
tramural burials, ho considered it of very great import- to inquire how that failure of justice had occurred.
ance, and intended to pay due attention to it; and the Alter a few words from Captain ARCHDALL,
question of births, deaths, and marriages amid receive Mr. MOORE his motion.
SALE OF BREAD.
consideration.
The Bill, after a few words from Sir D. NORREYS and Mr. BANKES moved the second reading of a Bill
Mr. MONSELL, was read a first time. for preventing frauds in the sale of bread. Tho Hon.
nab, expressed his hope that Government would net

Member :p.
oppose the Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE opposed the further progress of
the sill. The present law provided that the baker
should keep weights and weigh out the bread to the pur-
chaser. The Hon. Member proposed that the bread
should be weighed out of the oven and stamped accord-
ingly. He (Mr. Labouchere), feeling that the alteration
wouli greatly embarrass trade and place respectable
tradesmen at the mercy of informers, felt bound, however
reluctantly, to move that the Bill be read a second time
a day sIN months.
Sr" C. BURRELL supported the Bill.
Captain PECHELL opposed the Bill as calculated to
interfere vexatiously with small tradesmen throughout
the country.
Lord D. STUART and Mr. MANGLES took a similar
view of the question.
The gallery was cleared for a division, but none tA ok
place, the motion having been regatived, and the Bill
thrown on!.
Tho Dublin Improvement Bill passed through Com-
mittee, and the House adjourned at One o'clock.

In the at pence of Mr. Hume,
Mr. BRIGHT moved for " Accounts of the number ef
individual depositors and of charitable institutions, and
friendly societies depositing their funds in Savings
Bellies, and of the EUMS deposited, divided into the usual
of on the 20111 day of November, 1847, and on the
20th thy of November, 1348, &..c. eee."
ORANGE PROCESSIONS.
Mr. MOORE wished to draw the attention of the
House, and he hoped of the Government, to transactions
selsich to.:k place in the north of Ireland on the 12th of
July, and which proved most dangerous to the pence,
and in .eoune c sees fatal to the lives or her Mejesty's sub-
jects. He regretted that the Act for putting; down those
proe. ssions was not renewed, osi its expiration in 1845;
hut he did not, on that point, blame lax Majesty's Go-
v•ritnnnt for not having brought forward a measure, for
he believed that they retied on the good feelings of the
gentlemen of the north of Ireland, Liter a calamitous
f :mine of three years, not to raection there precessions.
It might well be hoped, that in the midst of each iitli c-
(ions. it was not possible that the people of the north
would stir up religious feeliner ; but they little knew
the heart, the souls, and the brains of the Orangemen
of the north of Ireland, who thirsted - for the
rnoloe'n of sanguinary bigotry on the, 12th of July,
and it was not surprising that on that day, they
were assembled in more than ordinary t• iumph. It
was easy to understand why such a moment was sale al
upon; bat the hearts of tho people were dead within
them. it was easy to understand the object of such
bigoted blockheads, whose preceediee.s ledto the loss of
lite, of which he now csuiplained.j''lnth e neighbour-
hood of Castlewellan, there was apass
to known
a b
aboye
the name of "Dolly Bray," which appeared
of contention between the rival factions. This spot
seems to have been invested with a traditional import-
ance, and for this Orange party to pass over "Dolly
Bray" was a challenge to the opposite faction. For
some years the pass was not attempted, and last year it
was formally discussed whether it should be attempsed
or not; but this year it was supposed that one year more
of cslamity would give the Cathol no advantage, and
is was resolved, not merely by the ordinary Oraneetnen ,
but by men of education and position, and even by
magistrates, that the pass age should be tried, and that
large bodies of men should be brought forwerd, pre-
pared for collision. But they went one step further,
and brought large bodies of police with them. There
were, too, on the ground, one company of the 9th foot,
one troop of the 13th Light Dragoons, one troop of the
Enniskillen Dragoons, and a large body of armed con-
stabulary ; and those ms n, it would appear, were
dispatched by her Majesty's Government, rot for
the purpose of into r -ering and preventing col-
lision, but of looking on. They had it, on the
authority of Major Wilkinson, that the Orangemen were
"armed to the teeth," and that they were allowed to pass
by the magistrates without any order to the troops to
prevent them. The party proceeded, firing shots, to
Tullamore Park, the seat of Lord Roden, who regaled
them, and certainly addressed them in language that
could not be complained of; but weak men, like Lord
Eden, were sometimes most dangerous to society; and
vicious men did not fail to do wrong under their apparent
countenance. Lord H tden met five or six thousand men,
and presented himself to them dressed out in the full
insignia of his order. lie repeated, that the address of
the Noble Lord was in every respect of a nature to dis-
arm the vicious; but five or six thousand fanatics were
not to be reasoned with. A conflict took place, life was
lost; and he understood that Lord Roden excused himself
from attending the coroner's inquest on the plea of ill
health. Ile (Mr. Moore) was willing to believe that such
was the case; but. he hoped that Lord Roden would not,
in future, sanction processions, the result of which must
add sorrow to his grey hairs.—(Hear.) The officer who
commanded the party stated that ho had no doubt what-
ever a collision would take place, and that ho b lieved
the firA shot was fired by an Orangeman. The firing
then became general, and as to her Majesty's forces,
they contented themselves with looking on, far, indeed,
they had no choice except to fire at both parties, or de-
sist altogether. They adopted the latter; but not so the
police, who immediately joined the Orangemen and took
pert with them in firing en what was termed the rebels,
and afterwards in pursuit. They shot down and beat
oat the brains of a great number of the peasantry, took
upwards of 30 pri.toeers, who were brought before the
magistrates who commanded the police, end the evidence
of those police taken, instead of having theta handcuffed
and sent to gaol with those in custody. Not content
with even that, they burned several houses, and in ono
case were nearly murdering a child and an old woman.
The Hon. Member then read a passage from the Dublin
Evening Mail, giving the details of this most horrible
transaction. He (Mr. Moore) thought the eae moat
deplorable in its details, considering the part taken by
the highest and the lowest actors, and certainly it was
hard to say who autenet. them was to blame. It au in-
quiry were to be instituted into the transaction, it
should be ascertained who it was that planned a circui-
tous route on a bad road through IDoily Bray. What
were the representations which induced the Government
to send a large military and police force; and, above all,
the conduct of the magistracy? and what their know-
ledge was of whit was about to take place? The Hon.
Gentleman then concluded by moving for the production
of the correspondence which had taken place on the
subject.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that, if he did not go
into a lengthened detail of what had occurred, he hoped
it would not for a moment be considered that he did not
feel the deepest regret at what had taken place. The
lion. Gentleman ought to recollect that, in the begin-
ning of the present y oar, certain occurrences happened,
at a place called Creasgar, near Dolly Bray, which made
the Government watchful, and into which he did not
then choose to enter. With regard to the procession
which had taken place, it was hoped that the state of the
public mind, and a more kindly feeling of one towards
the other of both parties, would have prevented the
necessity of introducing an Act of Parliament on the
subject, but unfortunately they were disappointed. All
he should now say, however, was, that the strictest in-
quiry would take place into everything which occurred,
both as regarded the military, police, and all parties con-
cerned.
Captain JONES deeply regretted what had happened,
and reminded the House that, when the Act expired, he
implored the Government to bring forward another such
measure to prevent all processions. With regard to what
had been said about Lord Roden, inviting the
Orangemen to Tullamore Park, he had seen a letter
from his Lordship, denying the assertion in the most
positive terms.
Mr. BRIGHT denounced it as one of the most atro-
cious and abominable acts which ever occurred in Ire-
land ; and as to what had been said in vindication of
Lord Roden, he believed the Noble Lord would not
escape from the matter as innocently as he expected.—
(llear, hear.) For his own part, he could not under-
stand why a nobleman should regale a parcel of people
in his park unless they were invited. He believed the
Government were actuated by the best of motives in not
renewing the Processions Act, but surely the Govern-
ment had the power of preventing the meeting of thou-
sands of armed persons, instead of which they sent an
armed force, who actually accompanied the Orangemen
in their march. They walked with the Orange preces-
sion, with the police, and in point of fact, regarded the
Catholics as enemies and the Protestants as friends.
That was the history of Ireland in a few words, and he
would tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that if the matter
were not rigidly inquired into, it would do much to pre-
vent that union and goodwill among
h© ehad seen
was so much desired. If the facts were asl
them in the papers, be thought thename::f Lord Roden
(giant not be allowed to remain a single moment on the
commission of the peace.
Sir 1). NORHEYS condemned the proceedings, and
avowed his opinion that no peace could be expected in
Ireland until the law was obeyed because it was the law,
and not at the bidding of any individuals whatever.
Major BLACK ALL concurred with the observation
made by the Hon. Member for Manchester, that armed
parties should be dispersed; but as to what had been said
respecting the military the lion. Member should recollect
that they were under the orders of the magistrates, and
should obey them.
Mr. F. MAULE admitted that a most melancholy oc-
currence had taken place, which required the strictest
inquiry, and he would implore of the Hon. Member to
forbear from further comment on the question until that
had taken place. With regard to what had been said of
the military—they must recollect that they were under
the orders of the magistrates, and as to the army gene-
rally, they had received the marks of approbation of all
parties for their conduct on a late occasion in Ireland;
when it was proved by their forbearance that they were
the best friends of the people against whom they were
sent.
Mr. MONSELL hoped that before the present session
of Parliament was over a Party Processions Act would be
introduced, to put an end to those deplorable processions.
—(Hear, hear.) lie implored the Governmenthteo_do
that, the more, when he found the coroner
_at
andt that
in-
quest stating that these processions were legael,
the Government of the country counteeneeatniecnd. thneeradbey.
sending an firmed force for their p
nouneed the conduct of the magistrates
' hadso 0
armed men to march through the country
rsln'll°a"s'itnhge;
done in this instance.
Mr. LABOLTCHEIne 0 . ' hserved that inasmuch CS a
e did not think
was to be instituted, h ''d
most rigid inquiry
it would be politic to accede
Tto the request made by the
Hon. Genth
mats who last adereesed the Hulse, to intro-
duce a Bill this session to put down patty proees.ions.
The most anxious attention of the Governm,lht had beel
given to these circumstances. lie was haipy to say, that
during his br:ef stay in Ireland, the I,rincipal men dis-
couraged, by every means itt their ploiwe(rciesucin scenes as
those they were now lamentine. regretted,
what hod taken place, and hoped that theepli
not continue the iniquity, as the Gay(' ' ouseisyoutci
insti-
tuted a searchine.. t •rnment had
the House to expresand it would not be right for
s an inquiry,opinion uutil that inquiry was
concluded.
Mr. REYNOLDS said ho had listened to this debate
with the deepest attention. lie believed that the author
of these murders was Lord Roden. His fifteen hundred
men had spent their bloody anniversary in huzzas and
drinking and triumphing, and, being armed to the teeth,
murdered men, women, and children; and, not content
with that, actually robbed the'poor people. Now, Colonel
Verner and other magistrates had been dismissed by
Lord Normanby for oven proposing on the 12th of July,

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the Howe cf COMM,3nS,I
THURSDAY, JULY 19.
TAXATION.
Motion made and Question proposed, " That whereas a
greater amount of Taxation is levied upon the people than is
required for the good and efficient government of the United
Kingdom ; and whereas large sums are expended in support-
ing needless places, extravagant salaries, and unnecessary
works and establishments ; and whereas the present taxation
of the country depresses all classes, and especially the labour-
ing classes, by diminishing the fund fur the employment of
productive labour, it is the opinion of this liou,e, that ade-
quate means should be forthwith adopted to reduce the ex-
penditure of the Government." Amendment proposed, to
leave out from the words " That whereas" to the end of the
Question, in order to add the words " no greater amount
of taxation ought to be levied than is sufficient for the good
and efficient government of the empire; and whereas it is
expedient that a searching inquiry should take place,
whether some places may not have become useless, whether
some salaries arc not too large, and whether some works and
establishments may not be unnecessary, it is the opinion of
this House that a vigilant superintendence should be exer-
cised over the expenditure of the country in all its depart-
ments, in order that every reduction may be made therein
which can be effected without detriment to the public
service," instead thereof:—Question put, " That the words
proposed to be left out stand part of the question." The
House divided :
MAJORITY—AYES, 71.
Alcock, Thomas Gooch, E. S. Pechell, Captain
Bankes, G. Gwyn, Bowel Perfect, Robert
Bass, M. T. Ilastie, Alexander Pigott, Francis
Blake, M. J. Heathcoat, John Pilkington, James
Bl‘witt, It. J. Henley, J. W. Portal, Melville
Bouverie, E. P. Henry, Alexander Rendlesham, Lord
Bright, John Heyworth, L. Roebuck, J. A.
Brocklehurst, John Hindley, Charles Rufford, Francis
Burrell, Sir C. Hodgson, W. N. Rushout, Captain
Chaplin, W. J. liollond, Robert Saiwey, Colonel
Christopher, R. Hood, Sir Alexander Scholefield, William
Cobden, It. Horsman, Edward Smith, J. B.
Coles, Henry B. Jollifle, Sir W. 11. Spooner, Richard
Dick, Quintin Kershaw, Jaime Stuart, Lord D.
Dickson, Samuel Lennard, T. B. Thompson, Colonel
Duncan, George Locke, Joseph Thompson, George
Du Pre, C. G. Lockhart, A.' E. Tollernsetc, John
Ewart, William Meagher, Thomas Walmsley, Sir I.
Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Wawn, J. T.
Fergus, John Mowatt, Francis Wood, W. P.
Fordyce, A. D. Noel, Gerald J. Wyld, James
Fox, W. J. Nugent, Sir Percy
Frewcn, C. 11. O'Connor. Feargus TILLERS.
Fuller, A. E. Osborne, Ralph Drammond, Henry
Gibson, T. M. Pearson, Charles Hume, Joseph

MINORITY—NOES, 68.
Abdy, T. N. Fox, R. M. Parker, John
Acland, Sir T. Freestun, Colonel Plowden, W. H.
Adair, It. Shafto Glyn, G. C. Pwer, Dr.
Armstrong, Sir A. Grey, Ralph W. Porysc, Pryse
Armstrong, R. B. Grosvenor, Lord R. Raphael, Alexander
Baines, M. T. Ilallyburton, Lord Reynolds, John
Baring. Sir F. Harris, Richard Romilly, Sir John
Bellew, R. H. Hawes, Benjamin Rumbold, C. E.
Birch, Sir Thomaa Hay, .Lord John Russell, Lord J.
Brotherton, J. Hobhouse, Sir John ilatherfurd, A.
Brown, W. Hobliouse, T. B. Shell, R. L.
Campbell, W. F. Howard, Lord E. Smith, J. A.
Clerk Sir George Jervis, Sir John Somerville. Sir W.
Cowper, W. F. Keppel, Gcorge.T. Stanton, W. H.
Cubitt, William Labouchere, lienry Thornely, T.
Dundas, Admiral Lascelles, W. S. Tufnell. 11.
Ebrington, Lord Lewis, G. C. Turner, George
Ellice, Edward 31'Cullagb, W. T. Vibiers, Viseoun.
Elliot, John E. Mangles, R. D. Wood, Sir Charles
Evans, John 31aule, Fox Wyrill, Marmaduke
Ferguson, Sir R. Morison, Sir W.
Filmer, Sir E. Nichol', J.
Fitzpatrick. JW. Paget, Lord A.
Forster, Mathew Palmerston, Via.

TELLERS.
Hill, Lord Marcus
Rich, Henry

COURT CIRCULAR.

- -
OSBORNE, THURSDAY.
Her Majesty and his Royal Highness walked this
morning early, in Osborne Park.
His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the Princess
Royal, and j younger
.members of the Royal Family
walked and rode as usual.
The Queen held a Privy Council yesterday, at one
o'clock, which wac attended by his Royal Highness
Prince Albert, the Marquis of Lansdowne, Sir George
Grey, Viscount Palmerston, Earl Grey, Sir Francis
13aring, Lord Campbell, the Marquis of Clanricarde, and
Earl Fortescur.
The lion. William Bathurst officiated as Clerk of the
Conned.
, His Excellency M. Drouyn de Lhuys, Ambassador
trom the French Republic, was introduced to her Ma-
jesty by Viscount Palmerston, and had the honour of
presenting his credentials.
After the Council the above noble personages partook
of a luncheon, and then returned to London. with the
exception of the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Sir George
Grey, who were honoured by an invitation to remain at
Osborne.
Thae was no other addition to the usual dinner party.

Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Gloucester visited
their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Cam-
bridge yesterday, it Cambridge House.
Their Royal llighnesws the Hereditary Grand Duke
and Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelita honoured
the performance at her Majesty's Theatre with their
presence yesterday evening.
Count Reventlow, the Danish Minister, bad an inter-
view with Earl Grey yesterday, at the Colonial-office.
Mr. Lane and Mr. Bogle Smith bad an interview with
the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday. Mr. John
Wood, Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, and
Mr. I'ressly had also an interview with the Right Hon.
Baronet, at his official residence in Downing-street.
A deputation of noblemen and gentlemen, representing
the principal railway companies, had an intervien yes-
terday with Lord John Russell, at his official residence,
in Downing-street, respecting the Audit of Railway
Accounts Bill. The Noble Lord was accompanied by
the Right Hon. Henry Labouchere, President of the
Board of Trade; and by the Right Hon. Sir Edward
Ryan, one of the Commissioners of Railways. The
deputation was headed by the Earl of Lonadale, and
included Mr. George Carr Glynn, Mr. Charles Russell,
Mr. Chaplin, the Earl of Powis, Viscount Villiers, Mr.
Lacy, Colonel Reid, and Mr. Saunders.
The Commission to Inquire into tbe Application of
Iron to Railway Structures,. accompanied by Mr. ion of
Engineer to the Brighton line; Mr. Crowe, Locomotive
Superintendent, and the Astronomer Royal, proceeded
on Wednesday to make experiments on the Ewell Bridge,
on the Epsom and Croydon line.
The Marquis of Lansdowne returned to town yester.
day, fr, m a visit to her Majesty at Osborne.
Sir James Stephen had an interview with Lord John
Russell yesterday.
Si! 'll-.ontts Fremantle, Chairman of the Customs, bad
an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer
yesterl- 7.
Sir George Grey arrived in town yesterday from the
Queen's marine residence, Osborne, Isle of Wight.
Dispatches were sent off yesterday evening, from the
1 Colonial-Office, for the Governors of Ilong-Kong and
'lon.

THE w EATHER.—Some may think it absurd to
occupy five lines in stating that the weather has been
fine or wet, as the case may be, during the week ;
seeing that most of those who read y nws
spathe country
r
are already familiar with the fact. And phaps
general way, it is absurd ; but there is no knowing how
far a country paper may travel, and distant readers, who
may even yet be languishing under the protracted
drought which we have experienced during. the last two
months, may beg reatly ref, eslud by learning that the
rain fell for several hours yesterday in this neighbour-
hood. The value of such a shower can scarcely be e
mated—both garden and field were parched up, and
there was danger that their fruits would be impaired by
the continued drought : but perhaps the most important
consideration is the thorough washing which the beck
and sewers would get—in this sanitary point of view
the rand wt be regarded as an inestimable boon,—
BradvJournal.
WEATHER PREDICTIONS.—Mr. James Clayton has
furnished us with the following sho short weather table for
the borough of Bradford:—July—Monday, l6th, fair;
17 th, slight showers; 18th,
,r4aini rain;
25th,19th,
20th, 21st, 22J,slight showers;
23d,28tl
,29 fair;th -
fair,t i,
btdslight, showers;
26th, 27th, fair;t Wu
dull; 30th, rain;
31't, rain, with thunder liugu e neday, Ist, 2d,
stght showers, with fine. intervals; August—Wednesday,
ahowers,
with high winds; sth, 6th, fair; "h 3 ilosti.ghlt4tehhowlserths;
9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, fair a'ncit
16th, 17th, 18th, generally ne, with hot. interva,ls, but
occ:iiional shower.—lbid.
QUICK TRANSIT OF GOODS TO AND FROM LONDON.
—DISPATCH THE OBDER OF THE DAY.—We understand
the Midland Railway Company have made arrangements
in connexion with the I,9ndon and North IV( Ste
eir hands
rn Rail-
way Company, that all goods delivered into
th
up to four o'clock r 31.daitl.),e,;iftllgboeitclihel3ilindrsi.npLicoknfdoornd
early next morning, by h
and Co., and Messrs. Chop:in sind Horns ; and goods
received in London are delivered in Bradford and ilia-
, trick the following afternoon. This, there fore, is " the
quickest transit tor goods" yet accomplished between
Yorkshire and the metropolis.—Bradford Observer.
THE NEW Car COAL-Exc nxNGE,—This magnifig
ccnt building, in Lower Thames•street, nearly facing the
Custoro-houEe, is near completion, and already presents
a very handsome appearance. It is expected that it will
be opened in the course of next month.