The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

passed, would be an insult on the gentry of Eng-
land. No one would be further from entertaining
the desire to insult the gentlemen of Englend than
himself ; but he could not view it at all/ in this light,
and did conceive that no such intention was entertained.
—(Hear, hear.) The opposition to titii Bill was founded
on the old urgumerits against the Reform Bill. Why,
they might ja•t as well say that the Ilouses of Lords and
Commons should not cem nine to legislate for the coun-
try, simply b.cau,e the Members of the former House
hell particularly large ratites in the country.—(tlear,
hear.) He thought that the very reason why the
boards of -guardians should be admitted to a share in the
control of the expenditure of the county r.tte was that
they were small rate-payers. If they were so they were
most conversant with small things, and most likely to be
able to jtelge of them, and their introduction to the
county board would therefore be a great benefit. The
most practical proceeding would be to refer the whole
matter to a Select Committee, in order that the principle
and details of the Bill r&ght be fully considered.—(Hear.)
Mr. WILSON PATTEN said as the county expen-
diture of Lancashire bad increased from 80,000/. to
170,000/., it was no woniter that the rate-payers should
be desirous of having some voice in the distribution of
it.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly never saw a greater
insult upon any body of gentlemen than that conveyed
in the Bill of the Hen. Gentleman that the magistrates
were incapable of representing the rate•payr rs of the
county.—(hear.) As the Bill now stool it would not
carry out the principle proposed. The best way would
be to throw the whole county-rate open the landlord,
and take it off the tenant, which might be very e astly
accomplished.—(Hear, hear.) It ti)ey did not do that,
they would get into error. Per instance, if an order came
from the Home Secretery that an additional expense
might be incurred tor any particular purpose, who was
.o decide that a rate should be made to carry that pur-
pose into a (feet? As the Bill stood now, the greatest
amount would fall upon the occupiers, and would they
consent to an expenditure for objects in which they had
no permanent interest? Tenants who hal leases for ten
and fourteen years had no interest in the expenditure
beyond the periods of their respective holdings. He
thought, therefore, if the Bill became law in its pre-
sent form, that all Dr cessary improvements in the
different counties would be stopped •, and on that
and several other grounds he strongly recomm• nded
the Hon. Member for Montrose to allow this Bill not
merely to go to a Committee, but to allow the subject of
county rates and co inty expenditure to be r.:considerad.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, when he was called upon to
support the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman opposite
he was perfectly at a loss to know whether or net the
principle of representation in county management was
admitted or not.—(llettr, hear.) If he could get some
assurance, in some form or other, that the principle of
representation in county management was to be rec. g
ide:A there would be no man more ready to approve the
principle of this Bill, from the beginning to the
end, than he was. Teat was all that he asked. A go-
vernment ought to have a self dependent and independent
spirit, and it should be enabled fairly and openly to avow
a policy, to adopt it, and stick by it. It should not
occupy the high places of the country, and while occu-
pying those high places avoid all the great. questions of
the day, but it was their duty to take their stand, when
they had a principle, upon that principle.—(Hear.) The
Hun. Gentleman the Secretary of State having admitted
the great principle of representation he would allow
him (Mr. Roebuck) to adopt him as his general en this
occesion, and to fight that great battle under his banner.
He (Mr. Roebuck) did hope the House would in reality
entirely negative the sort of side- wind way in which the
lion. Gentleman opposite bad sought to throw out this
Bill. It was the great principle of representation which
be (Mr. Roebuck) was there then to support.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GRhY said he had stated it the Lion. Gentle-
man opposite persevered in the motion of which he had
given notice, and the question should then have been
would the House admit the principle of representation
into financial boards in assessing county rates, or would
they altogether reject that principle—if that was the
point on which they were to take issue, he (Sir George
Grey) said he should have no hesitation iu voting fur
the principle or the Bill, greatly as he objected to some
of its details —(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. rAlitiete I'ON explained that in his address
he gave no opinion with respect to the principle of re•
presentation—no one was more favourable to representa-
tion than he was; but he conceived the whole matter
ought to be investigated by a Committee.
Mr. PACKE bad no hesitation in saying that this
Bill, though he did not accuse the Hon. Gentleman of
bringing it forward for that purpose, was au affront to the
magistracy of England. Many important matters would
be placed by this Bill beyond the control of the county
board. For instance, the expenses allowed by a judge
would not come under its jurisdiction. He fully admitted
that there should be representation in county matters;
but he objected to it, because it was not practicable. As
he had said, they would hake nu power over the ass.ze
expenses at sessions. He approved of inquiry by a
LEWlStitail
said
the h
we
hg. al
e there
matter
oCfo
,ts
ihim.e. Committee.
ume
d t heahteiet d wasbe trheet
referred
to a Select Committee. wish
d
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Gentleman was wrens,. He
first wanted the House to affirm the principle, and then
to refer the Bill to a Committee.
Mr. C. LEWIS said he so understood the Hon. Gen-
tleinan. It was nut necessary that a magistrate should
be a contributor -to the county rates; therefore the
statement or the Honourable Gentleman, that the
rates might be imposed by persons who did not con-
tribute to them, ells perfectly correct. Then, again,
it was not until 1834 tnat refrc.eotation was ac-
knowledged as being coincident with taxation.
tie strongly advised the House to refer the whole ques-
tion to a Committee, for the time had now arrived alien
a great change must be made in the entire system of
county taxutiiou.
Mr. MILES came down to oppose the principle of
the Bili, because it would cast a slur upon the magistracy
of the country—(Oh, eh.)—but since his Hon. Friend
had altered his aine:ndauent, he had no object:ou to
refer the Bill and the general subject of representation to
the consideration of a Commute e.—( Hear, hear.) During
the last few years the greatest economy had been prac-
tised in the county expenditure, while at the present mo-
ment no county was without its finance committee, who
caret ully sifted end cxamieed the accounts.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not think, therefore, that it was fair to attack the
magistracy in the manner some Honourable Gentlemen

had done, but as they were now agreed that the whole
subject should be thoroughly investigated, he hoped
there would be no obj,ction ou the part of the majority
of the House to adopting the amendment.—(Hear, bear.)
He would rtadily have voted for the principle of this
BID; but the principle was so much mixed up with the
details, that he could not possibly support the second
reading.
Ali. E. DENISON came down to the House with a
purpose with ly duff rent from that which had been ex-
pressed by the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down.
Ha regretted many of the observations wnich had been
made respecting the gentry of England, for
he thought that they only prejuoiced the question. He
would much rather that the House should go into
this inquiry without been crippled by a vote of the
House; uut,constdering all the circumstances, he thought
that it would be better to affirm the propwitiun before
the liuuse.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.")

Mr. SPOONER rose, amid loud and continued cries
a "Divide, nivitie," and said that this Bill was not one
tor admission, but of exclusicn. He was altogether
friendly to the principle ot representation in county
affuirs.—(Renewed cries of "Divide, divide.") But the
details of this Bill were in many respects so
objectionable that he behaved that iu voting
for the amendment he was furthering instead of

impeding the object.of the Hon. Member -for Montrose.
By vesting the whole of the control of the prisons of the
county in this financial board they would take from the
sheriff of the county the right of appointing persons to
offices in the prisons, while he was in fact the very per-
son re,pousibie for the ctnitody of the prisouers.—(lie-
newed eras of " Divide, divide.")
After a few words from Lord ...141100JILE and Mr. SLANEY,
spoken amidst great uproar,
Mc. HUME said, that he hoped that as several Mem-
bers were not present when he stated the objects of the
Bill, he should be allowed to repeat them.—(Cries of
" Oh, ob.") He would not be long. If any slur was cast
at all it was cast by the House on the Commissioners.—

(Hear, hear.) Aii be desired to du was to carry out the
recommendation of the Cornceizsioners. That was to
establish the principle of representation, and he asked no
more. It t.,ey wished to refuse that principle, let them
adoptshelft
it b,y
them let insidious
te
fur
theresolution
13;
iol
ir. if theyHe
wibhe l to
that he had been deceived by the Government. In
conceivedfact, to use a common phrase, he had been " so'-d."—
(Laughter.) When he was applied to to bring in the
Bill he objected, and said it was not the business of an
individual . Member, that it was the business of the
Government, and that they ought to go to Sir
jhthe
in
that came
George Grey, and ask him to introduce the
Bill. They did so, but Sir George Grey ce
dined, although he agreed to the principle. He then
told them to go to Lord John
back and said tbat he also approved of the principle,
but declined to bring in the Bill. What then was he to
mdoih—itl(uHmuesaae.ekr—, hCin Ors.r)edlterH, understood.—(Laughter.) spderstuoti.— (Laughter.) Well
tne Noble Lord, the First Minister, said the Govern-
ments Winds were fo full, that he could not undertake
the manags went of the Bill, but he entirely agreed with
' it; and he (Mr. Hume) understood from what then passed
tnat it he bi ought in the Bill he should receive the sup •
port of the Government—(Heat)—and in that way it was
that he he had en entirely sold.—(Loud laughter.)
He called upon every Member who agrees with the prin-
ciple that the county rates ought to be managed by
individuals appointed by the rate-p.yers, tojvote with him
for the second reading,—(Bear, hear.)
Strangers were th.-n ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 96
in
Against it ............154
andoi kee
u Russell;
t oub
erol; butoet
supposed h
Russell ey
l&jority against the amendment... 58
Mr. M. GIBBON proposed an amendment, to the
effect that ihe Select Committee should consider the pro-
priety of introducing the principle rf repreientation of
the rate-payers.

Mr. B:I3ENISON did not object to the amendment
of the lion. Gentleman, but he thought there would be
very great difficulty in carrying it into effect.
Mr. DISRAELI said the question before the House
was whether tt e principle of representation should be
seterred to a &life' C.ratnittte. That question court
not be satisfactorily settled unless it was settled by the
whole House. The House was as competent now to
enter into that discussion as it could be after any inves
Ligation, before a Selt ct Cumtuittee.—(Cheers.) There
could not be a greater slur ou the House of Commons
than to suppose tbst they were nut competent to enter
into the consideration of a great constitutional question.
Mr. ROEBUCK said this was a Bill which affected a
larger portion of the people of this country than any