The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-21 00:00:00

spect to Ireland.—(" Hear," and laughter.) Hurt could
he, as an English Msmbsr, vote at all, unless it were
given as a vote of confidence? The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had told them that this rate in ail was for
the purpose of saving the lives of the people of Ireland.
—(Hear.) He presumed that the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not have made that statement unless it were true.
The measure might be objectionable in principle; but,
when they considered its object, they must not stand too
strictly upon the principle of the measure.—(Hear.) He
wished to give Ireland equal justice and equal laws, but
he, at the same time, was anxious to be just to the people
of this country, by imposing upon all parts of the United
Kingdom equal taxation.
Mr. SCULLY said, that however lengthened might
be their debates on this most important subject, he did
not consider that the time would be wasted. The Hon.
Gentleman proposed that there should be a rate in aid
for a year and then an income-tax; why not let them
have both together, and then they would know the worst?
He did not consider Ireland to be at this time in a state
to be further taxed: he therefore should opposed both
an income-tax and a rate in aid. Before either were
agreed upon, the resources of Ireland ought to be in-
quired into; and sure was he that the re,ult of such
an intluiry would be a conviction that this was not
the time to impose additional taxation upon the
people of that country. There were other funds
in Ireland which might, in his opinion, fairly be
applied to the relief of the destitution in that
country. He thought, for instance, that a portion of
the rich revenues of that monster evil, the Irish Church,
might, as a matter of justice, be so applied. Originally
one-third of the tithes were devoted to the support of
the poor; and when could a better opportunity be found
for the re-establishment of that principle in Ireland than
at the present moment?—(Hear, hear.) Then there
was the large sum derived in the shape of income-tax
from Irish property, which might be also justly applied
to the same purpose. These and other matters would,
at all events, form a fair subject for inquiry by a Com-
mittee. He had hoped that the Noble Lord at his re-
cent interview with Irish Members would have stated
his intention of abandoning the proposal of a rate in aid,
and of charging the funds he had just alluded to with the
relief of the existing distress. But he, as well as others,
had been sadly disappointed with the result of that inter-
view. The fact was that the Government, in order to
deal successfully with the present crisis, must change
their course. All parties in that House seemed to be
agreed that a more energetic policy was necessary for
Ireland. He had lately come from that country, and it
was really melancholy to witness the despondency which
prevailed among all classes there in consequence of the
neglect of Government. They had hoped that the Go-
vernment would long before this have taken an opportu-
nity of proposing some of those comprehensive measures
about which they talked so loudly when in opposition; but
they had now lost nearly all confidence in the Govern-
ment. He implored them, however, to change their course
—to bring forward again the great question of the Irish
Church, and to adopt in other respects a generous
course of policy towards that unfortunate country.
Colonel DUNNE said that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had last night expressed his gratification at the
speeches of the Hon. Members for Kerry and Long-
ford. He (Colonel Dunne) could not share in that gra-
tification; but he did not wonder at the Right Hon.
Gentleman's surprise at seeing Irish Members rushing
with open arms to meet taxation. For his own part,
he objected both to an income-tax and a rate-in-aid,
because he did not consider either of them consistent
with the spirit of the Act of Union. Should the Go-
vernment accede to an inquiry as to whether additional
taxation was consistent with the Act of Union, and to
What extent, he was quite prepared for any amount that
Might be considered fair and necessary; but until they
did that he should vote not only against ar.y income-tax,
but against a rate in aid as well, leaving the respon-
sibility of the consequences upon her Majesty's Minis-
ters.—(Hear.) He was not alone in objecting to an
income tax for Ireland. Stong objections, which were
fully as applicable now as then, were stated to it in 1645
by Sir R. Peel, Lord Palmerston, and Mr. Goulburn.
(Here the Hon. and Gallant Member quoted the senti-
ments of the Members he had named.) The Hon.
Member for Bucks had last night spoken very severely
of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, for
!hat he called the "unconstitutional" interview with
the Irish Members. If the Hon. Member was correct as
to the interview being unconstitutional, the Irish Members
Were equally liable to the condemnation with the Noble
Lord, and he (Colonel Dunne) was quite ready to bear
his part of the blame. But he did not think it was
unconstitutional ; and he thought moreover that if
the Government were more frequently to consult the
Irish Members on Irish subjects, it would be better
.°r both. But with reference to that particular
interview he did not think that the Irish Members
had much to boast of. The Noble Lord had given them
merely a choice between the dagger and the bowl—
(tiear, hear)---between an income tax and a rate in aid;
whereas, as he had said, he as well as other Irish Mem-
bers were equally opposed to both. Not because they
Were
unwilling to pay their lair share of taxation, but
(Rear,
they wished the taxes to be readjusted first.—
"'tear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Kerry had said
that the. proposal of the rate in aid had been introduced
!ider circumstances very unusual. On the contrary,
4. the
(Colonel Dunne) thought that the introduction of'
tie measure was in perfect accordance with the
Whole conduct of the Government on the subject of
'Ale Poor-law. They had introduced a measure for
!Wowing out-door relief to the poor of Ireland, con-
`srrer to the opinion of Mr. O'Connell and of the cone-
tnissioners, who had previously conducted an inquiry
Into the subject; and they had introduced this rate in
lticl exactly in the same way, contrary to the opinion of
• large body of the Irish Members, as well as contrary
to the opinion of their own commissioner, Mr.Twialcton.
--(Hear.) The timo at which this proposition was
Made was most inopportune. Ireland was suffering
deeply from the effect of their commercial changes, and
On looking to the present prices of corn and to what
they would probably become, the actual reduction in the
value of the produce of Ireland could not be estimated
at less than 6,500,0001. Instead of exporting corn to
Liverpool, the Irish mershaets were absolutely preparing
to import it from America. Add to this the loss
sustained from the failure of the potato crop, with the
consequent losses on feeding pigs and cattle, which had
not been estimated too highly at 42,000,000/., and they
might hesitate before they thought this the most proper
time to put an income-tax on that country. He could
not understand how his Hon. Friends (Mr. Herbert and
hlr• Fox) could vote for an increase of taxation, but if
9rt a readjustment of the taxation it appeared that
Ireland did not bear her stipulated proportion in accord-
ance with the terms of the Act of Union, he and every
other Irish Member would be quite ready to submit to
any burdens which it appeared right that they should
Pay. The revenues of Ireland were no less than
4,400,000/. It was obvious she did not require such
a sum for her own purposes. Her military esta-
blishment this year would cost nearly 2,500,0001., but
it was quite unfair to keep up such an army to en-
force the poor-rate in a country so obedient to the law
as Ireland for the most part was. The analogy be-
t Ween the rate in aid and the Scotch tax of which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke, and which the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had referred to, did not
hold, because, as he (Colonel Dunne) was informed by
the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), that tax
had been imposed in accordance with the old Scotch
Ty. The fact was they must make large and radical
Changes in the whole of the Irish poor•law. The cost
of its !administration was enormous. Last year they
laid out 700,000/., of which 500,0001. went to feed the
_People, and 200,000/. to pay the poor-law officials. With
ouch a system the rate in aid must be eternal. With all
that had been said against the potato, he very much
doubted whether it was not better than cereal food,
,11ti d he thought it impossible by any system of al
sereat• ion of crops to support the people on the western
!Oast, exposed as it was to the winds from the Atlantic.
Under any circumstances, such a system could not be
the in_ growth of a year, and meantime the people would
Bey from the want of food. The same objections
appliedlf to the propositions for facilitating the transfer
of
estates and to the formation of Parliamentary titles.
The latter was no new thing, for it had been tried re-
Peatedly since the days of Elizabeth and Cromwell, not
to go further back ; and the success which had at-
tended it was not such as to make them wish for a repe-
tition of the experiment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES said he would, in a few words,
• give the reasons why he could not vote for
the proposition of the Noble Lord, on the
grounds it had been submitted to the House, and at
the same time his intention to vote for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert),
though he (could (not contemplate the possibility of its
being adopted for the discouragement and difficulties
thrown by the Government in the way of those Irish
Members who would otherwise have given it their sup-
Port. After the intimation of the Noble Lord, and the
strange way in which it had been given, that if the
amendment was carried he should consider it his duty to
make additions to it, the nature of which he did not
State' but which might plainly be understood to point to
fresh taxation for Ireland, no Irish Member could run
the risk of voting for the amendment; but not being de-
terred by the responsibility attaching to representatives
from Ireland, he (Mr. Bankes) would give that amend-
Mont his support. Ho was not prepared to sit still and
see the Irish people starving ; and Government must
either carry out other measures better suited to the
fall,
or into other hands the arrangement must
tall, and relief must be administered under other circum-
stances. It would be with great grief he saw an income-
tax fixed on Ireland. When the income-tax was pro-
Posed for three years longer he had concurred in the
proposition of the Hon. Member for Montrose to extend
empire
to Ireland. But he would exempt that part of the
Pire from the tax so long as famine continued; it
would
the give him great pain to vote for the extension of
income-tax to Ireland at a moment like this, when
the Irish Members declared not only that famine existed,
but that their condition had been deteriorated, as stated
by the Hese
Member for Portarlington by the unhappy
adoption of a
change which had subjected Ireland to
more severe inflictions
ex-
perienced.—(Hear.) Tthis
than ever this country had ex-
and it
not the time to add to
the taxation of Ireland;
itwas not too much to ask
).M should of the Government that the
have waved for the
moment some of those economical pies which alone
stood in the way, namely, to furniPshinci
money to Ireland
without fixing any new taxation on the country.
Lord J. RUSSELL—You opposed h
atehfiterred to hadt frMr. BANKES—He was not awaret
side of the House anything such as he rt
been'opposed. Had the Noble Lord continued the ien-
port duties on corn, he would have had a revenue which
would have produced last year 900,000/. applicable to
doristrhe.ss i
the evil
in Ireland, and operating as a remedy to t
mass
7 which the Hon. Member for Portarlington had spoken.
oble Lord would not evade any promises be had
vie4,des.
If would have been well had he given no rash
totAe., a remedy of easy application were to be
ev,rioeuu` why not double the rate of postage ? The
kne e ° from that source would not be doubled, but 7"004. or 300,0004 might be rekliscd, which was

all the G.ivernment slid they wanted fur the
present emergency. Had he not as much right to
auk the economists of that House to adopt that proposi
Lion as they had to ask him to vote away the money of
ois constituents, who could not pay it with.;ut adding to
the sufferings they already endured? The present oc-
cupants of the Treasury benches used in Opposition to
taunt the Government with having produced the un-
happy disunion in feeling which existed between the in-
habitants of what ought to be a united empire. The
people of this country were becoming the creditors of
the people of Ireland, and were to have the right of
seizing for the present advances the stoctios and crops of
their debtors, the people of Ireland. Such was the po-
sition in which the Government had placed them when
it asked them to live in friendly brotherhood. He
could not, therefore, consent to advance money on
the rate in aid, denounced, as it was almost uni-
versally, by the Irish representatives. If the English
representatives had to refuse money for those who re-
quired to be relieved, they refused it because the Go-
vernment did not ark it as they might, entitling Hon.
Members to give it not ocly readily but cheer fully, with
the sanction of their constituents. With respect to the

plan propounded by one of the greatest authorities in
that House, and which had been received with the re-
spect with which everything from that quarter ought to
be received, he regretted that so much commentary had
been made on that plan, and he thought the Hon.
Member for Coeltermouth had occapied the time of the
House rather unnecessarily, by going over a scheme al•
ready made known so far as expedient. The present
question was a narrow one—could the House grant money
on the terms proposed by the Government ? To that
proposition he must, in one word, say no.
Sir L. O'BRIEN could not suppose the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government turned a deaf ear to the re-
presentations of the misery which came from the other
side of the Channel. OF all Members of that House, the
Noble Lord must be best intormed as to the scenes there
passing. Ile could not be ignorant that at this moment
starvation prevailed in many of the western counties.
Under these circumstances the Noble Lord was bound to
ask the House for grants of money; but he found himself
in this painful position, that the English Members said
they would give no more grants of money to Ireland. The
Noble Lord had told the Irish Members that they must
take on themselves the rate in aid, which inquiry had
shown would produce the most detrimental effects. Nei-

tber must it be left out of view that the distress
extended in a greater or less degree to the most
flourishing ports of Ireland, that the people of Ulster,
who lived on the potato as well as the people of the
other provinces had this year lost as much, in pro•
portion as the others. Nor ought the contributions which
Ireland had this year made to the support of its own poor
to be forgotten.—(Hear.) A poor•rate of 2,000,000/.
had been raised on a valuation of 13,000,000/. The
cereal as well as other crops had suffered, lie had made
the greatest possible efforts to introduce a system of
green crops. This year they had failed as much as the
potato. The circumstances were such that the same
spirit of generosity ought to pervade that House as had
pervaded it in former years. He had heard with great
pain the speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose, who
proposed to throw on the Irish Members the responsibility
of preserving the lives of their brethren. If it were thrown
on him (Sir L. O'Brien) he would willingly accept the
terms. But was the Hon. Member for Montrose prepared
to throw off the brotherhood of one part of the country
—to declare that the people in Clare were not equally
the brothers of the people of England and Scotland as
they were of the people of Ulster and Leinster?—
(Hear, hear.) What more brotherhood was there be-
tween Mayo and Clare than between Middlesex and
Clare? They were all fellow subjects. Ho had estates
in two different unions. He had paid rates of 55.,
3s. 41, and again 3s. 4d. in the union of Ennistymon,
three rates atnounting in all to lls. Bd. in the pound. If
bread were left for himself and his children, he would
abandon all rather than that the people should starve.
The landlords had to pay rates on land for which they
had not received one farthing—a provision of the
poor-law so unjust and iniquitous that the people of
England would never bear it; and unless the Noble
Lord and Secretary, for Ireland brought in a Bill
to remedy that evil, they ought to be driven from
their places. If the Government brought forward
a proposition for an income-tax in Ireland on
their own responsibility, he would not say that
he would not support it; but, under present circum-
stances, he opposed that measure. What Ireland wanted
was a restoration of confidence. The landlords were
without confidence. The banks were without confidence.
Confidence was capital. They had capital enough in
Ireland if they had but confidence. They did not want
Parliament to send them capital if they could only have
confidence. If the farmer, the landlord, the banker, were
animated by such confidence, there would be be no defi •
ciency of capital. If the plan of the Right lion. Member
for Tamworth would lead to a restoration of confidence,
it could not be said but that it would confer very great
benefit, but if the plan had a tendency to frighten the
landlord, to mention it would do the greatest possible
injury. A proposal for getting rid of the impediments
which legal forms offered to the tranvfer of real property
would meet with no opposition from him.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M'CULLAGH expressed his surprise at the Hon.
Member for Dorsetshire's disapproval of the discussion
which had arisen upon the plan proposed by the Right
Hon. Member for Tainworth. The Hon. Member was the
last man in the House from whom such an ohj ection should
have proceeded, because it was he who, in the first in-
stance, declared his wish to know the mind of the Right
Hon. Baronet upon the subject of Ireland. The House
must recollect, that the Hon. Member made an eloquent
appeal to the genius and experience of the Right lion.
Baronet, calling upon him to help Ministers in their
embarrassments, and the empire in its difficulty.—(Llear,
hear.) Now, however, that the oracle had spoken and
the Right Hon. Baronet's partly developed plan
had already engaged the attention of men on
both sides of the Channel, the Honourable
Member repented of the invocation which he had
made. The Right Honourable Baronet's speech was as
distasteful as his silence. The lion. Member was as
little contented with the Right Hon. Baronet's sug-
gestion as he had been with his government when
he was the leader of a great united party tin the op-
posite benches. The Hon. Member's conduct justified
the application to him of the words of the old epigram-
matist,--

" DifEcilis, facilis, jucundus acerbus, es idem ;
Nec tecum possum vivere, nee sine te."
The course taken by the Hon. Member for Cocker-
mouth last night was _even more extraordinary. That
lion. Gentleman took upon himself to inform the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth in what his plan was de-
ficient, and to suggest various matters which he stated
to be essential to its success. It might safely be averred
that no two things ever presented a more marked con-
trast than the Right Hon. Baronet's speech and the
Hon. Member's commentary on it. Though the Right
lion. Baronet's plan might fail to satisfy some persons,
every man of right feeling must acknowledge the
good taste, the sobriety of judgment with which
he opened it to the !louse, and the circumspection, cau-
tion, and, it might be said, the humility of wisdom—
the attribute of Lis great experience, long habits of re-
sponsibility, and power of grasping details—with which
he ventured to recommend it to the House.—(Cheers.)
Contrast that address with the fruit of irresponsibility
and inexperience with which the lion. Member fur
Cockermouth had favoured the House! The one was as
great a proof of overconfidence as the other might to
some have seemed to be of unaccountable diffidence.
There was hardly any one whom the lion. Member did
not lecture, if not revile. The Ministers were pronounced
incompetent and imbecile, and their measures mis-
chievous, whilst the profusion of praise which he be-
stowed upon the Rlght Hon. Member for Tamworth—
whether it were apposite or inapposite—must have been
as little regarded by their object as his censures by the
Government. The sensitiveness of the Right lion.
Baronet must have been wounded when the Hon.
Member made an infelicitous illustration of the influence
of his plan by a reference to the contracts which had
been broken in consequence of its promulgation. In
short, the lion. Member attributed to the Right Hon.
Baronet the intention of rigging the land market, and
thus defeating the very object which he had in view.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The allusions which the
Hon. Member for Cockermouth made to the evidence
given before the committee on the Poor Law called for
some observation on that point. The evidence of Mr.
Twisleton was deserving of every consideration on
account of the office which he had so ably filled,
and which he had resigned rather than administer
the law for levying a rate in aid. Fortunately, how-
ever, Mr. Twisleton gave his reasons for objecting to a
rate in aid, and any one was able to estimate the force
of them. Mr. Twisleton frankly declared that his reason
for refusing to take any part in administering a law
enacting a rate in aid was, that he believed the measure
would endanger the stability of the connexion between
the two countries. Upon thas point ho (Ur. M'Cul-
lagh), although the youngest and least experienced Irish
representative in that House, was as competent to form
an opinion as Mr. Twisleton, and he totally differed from
the view which that gentleman took of the subject. There
was no proof that the opinions expressed by the repre-
sentatives of Ulster were shared by the mass of the
Irish people. No petition against the measure had ema-
nated from any great public meeting south of the Boyne.
With the exception of Belfast, no great town had
petitioned against the rate in aid, whilst Dublin and
Limerick had petitioned in its favour as contrasted with
an income-tax. With scarcely an exception the Ca-
tholic clergy had pronounced in the same manner. Mr.
Twisleton's sole hope for the future rested on the revival
of the potato crop, and he would have the people of Ire-
land depend in the mean time on supplies from the Im-
perial Exchequer. Nothing could be more fatal than to
teach the people of Ireland to rely on that root, which
had proved the greatest traitor to them, and which had
made them alternately sponges in the hands of absentee
proprietors and stipendiaries on the Imperial Exche-
quer.—(hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for
Buckinghamshire put the question on the t ight footing
when he said that the Irish representatives had now an
opportunity of determining whether or not personal pro
petty should not, as well as real property, be made liable
to the support of the poor. The lion. Member wished
to fight over again upon Irish ground the battle in
which he had recently been defeated; but he (Mr.
M'Cullagh) warned Mill Members that if they should
once admit the principle that an income-tax might
when
applied in aid of poor-rates the time would cane whn
it would be applied instead of them. The on. Mem-
bers for Buckinghamshire and Cockermnuth were agreed
in demanding a policy. It was undoubtedly true that
at.
the measures now proposed were merely temporary,
could exercise no permanent influence on the condition'
of Ireland, and he believed that no legislation would be
capable of remedying the evils of that country until
the Irish Members on both sides of the House, who
kept faith with their tenantry and in whom that
tenantry trusted, should do themselves an act of
.justice by no longer conceiving themselves bound to make
common cause with others of their body whose crimes
had reduced the people to misery—who had made the
people the tools of their rapacity as 1013 g as the potatoes

last -d, and when that crop failed cast them for support
upon the Imperial Treasury.—(Hear, hear.) The land-
lords who had faithfully discharged their duties would
become accomplices after the fact of the bad men who
had deserted their country after inflicting the most
grievous evils upon it, if they failed now to shake off
the connexion and unite themselves with the mid do
and labouring classes, who had been too long the vic-
tims of bad men's crimes. Half the landlords of Ire-
hsed were bad.—(" No! nor) Well, the smaller the
number might be, the more easy it would be found to
deal with them. It would be said, " Will you attack
the rights of property ?" but against those rights it was
necessary to set the wrongs which industry and humanity
had sustained. For the sake of their country he im-
plored the Irish Members to consent to a stringent and
an unusual measure, for by such alone could the evils of
that country be cured.—(Cheers.)
Mr. MO-NSELL considered that the sole question
which could be then debated was whether they should
accept a rate in aid or the proposition of his Honourable
Friend the Msmber for Kerry. lie could not conceive
how Honourable Gentlemen could reconcile it to their
consciences, knowing the distress which existed in Ire-
hld, and the necessity of funds being provided for its
relief, to oppose the rate in aid unless they were pre-
pared to support a substitute for it.--(Hear, hear.) He
must, however, say that he thought the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government had dealt somewhat un-
fairly with Irish Members on this question. Professing
to decide it by their wishes, he had, by the course he
had pursued, rendered the decision of it extremely diffi-
oult. The Noble Lard had frightened many of his Hon.
Friends by a sort of veiled figure of indefinite taxation
which he had raised, and he (Mr. Monsell) believed
that it the Noble Lord had deals not more candidly, but
more openly with them, they would have been much
more able to cme to a conclusion. But to those Hon.
Gentlemen who had been alarmed by the Noble Lord,
and particularly to the Noble Lord the Member for
Down, he wished to address a few words. He thought
it must be clear to that Noble Lord that one of these two
measures, a rate in aid or an income-tax, must be car-
ried; and, therefore, if the course pursued by the Noble
Lord and many of his friends was to defeat the proposi-
tion of his Hon. Friend, they would substantially assist
the Government in carrying the rate in aid. His Hon.
Friend who had last addressed the House had spoken as
if this measure was such as it had been described in
many of the public prints—a sort of landlord ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to know a hether his
Hon. Friend could say he did not in his conscience
know that the adoption of an income-tax rather than
a rate in aid would deliver the farmers of Ireland
from an enormous amount of taxation which they
would otherwise shave to pay. Knowing, as his Hon.
Friend did, that the vast majority of farmers in Ireland
would be rated under 3001. a year, could his Hon. Friend
maintain that this was a landlord question?—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, after, referring to a reso
lution which had been passed at a meeting of the board
of guardians of the Limerick Union in favour of an in-
come-tax rather than a rate in aid, proceeded to say that
this was a question of a general tax instead of a local
one, and in that lay the fallacy of the argument used
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the previous
evening when he spoke of the Scotch case. In that
case, which oceurred in the twenty-third year of George
several of the northern counties were allowed to
tax themselves for the poor, but there was no general
taxation, and it therefore did not apply to the
present question. Every precedent was against the
proposition of the Government ; and all writers on
the subject had expressed themselves in the strongest
manner as to the injustice of such a tax. Honourable
Gentlemen connected only with England were perhaps
hardly aware of the extreme disproportion between the
amount of rateable property in England and in Ireland.
Tho Chancellor of the Exchequer, he believed, had
stated the former at 103,000,0001. a year, the tax upon it
being 12,000,000/., or about ls. 81 in the pound. In
Ireland, before the potato failure, the amount of rateable
property might be valued at 13,000,000/. a year, a low
average, he admitted, but adding 15 per cent., he would
take it at 15,000,0001., which no Hon. Gentleman
would think was understated. From that must now be
eleducted 20 per cent., which left the amount at
12,003,000/. The county cesa on the average
of three years, without any repayment of ad-
vances, was 1,142,000/. a year. The poor-rates
last year were 1,600,0001. ; the repayment of relief
advances, 272,321/. ; and the amount charged under
Sir J. Burgoyne's Relief Commission was 952,0001., port
of which was, he believed, paid, making altogether
4,200,0001., or he might fairly state it at 3,800,0001. So
that the rateable property in England, which was
103,000,000/., paid but 12,000,000/. of taxation, whilst
that of Ireland, amounting to only 12,000,0001., paid
4,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) Was not that a state of
things which fairly claimed their liberal consideration?
If the representatives of Irelani consented to the im-
position of further taxation on that country in her pre-
sent distressed state, had they not a fair right to call
upon the House to change the policy which had already
produced such disastrous results?—(Hear, hear.) Would
the House allow that state of things which was de-
scribed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
Noble Lord as continually squeezing all the rates that
could be collected out of the different electoral divi-
sions to go on and make no such exertions as the emer-
gency of the case required?—(Hear, hear.) The re-
medial measures that might be adopted had been fairly
put forward by the Hon. Member for Cockermouth in
this debate, and by the Right lion. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth, on two former and remarkable occasions.
He would refer to one case within his own knowledge
which illustrated some of the important measures that
were absolutely necessary for Ireland. 'At a distance of

10 or 12 miles from LitTneriek was an estate of about
4,500 acres. For a long period it had been under the
jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. The tenants were
in a miserable state, and crime prevailed in the district
to a frightful extent. After many years an eminent
Limerick merchant purchased it, and by the course he
pursued the district was restored to tranquillity, and
the tenantry were, he could not say restored, for he be•
lieved they never had enjoyed prosperity before, but ren-
d-red prosperous. And what was that course? Assisting
the surplus population, who had no capital, to emigrate,
whilst those who had capital were kept at home. But al-
though he had done all this for his own property, there
was at the same moment, in the same electoral divi-
sion, another estate, which had been, Heaven only knew
how long, in the Court of Chancery. Misery existed
there to a frightful extent, and in consequence his rates
were not reduced to the amount they otherwise might
have been. He wished the House would reflect on the
condition of the people living on the estate of the Noble
Lord the Foreign Secretary, to which reference had been
made in the beginning of 1847, and take 6,000 people
living there—the number in the electoral division, and
compare it with that of 6,000 living in the electoral divi-
sion of Clifden. In the first instance, they would find
2,000 of these people sent to a country where they
are prosperous and able to remit money to their friends,
and the other 4,000 being in a state of comparative com-
fort; whilst in the other case, most probably, 2,000
were already in their graves, and the others were (frig-
ging on a miserable existence. He could only decl ire
his belief that if the course which had been persevered
in so long were persevered in still, and the people of
Ireland were allowed to remain in their present wretched
condition, that House would bring down upon itself
the judgment of Heaven for not adopting those means
which were open for relieving those people from their
misery and suffering.
Sir W. BARRON said, that under the present circum-
stances of Ireland he could not ♦ote for uny addition of
taxation. In that country everything was hastening to
ruin, and how could this House fix an additional tax
upo❑ a people so circumstanced. He could not agree
with the principle that these poor people should not
come to the common exchequer. Up to this hour they
had acknowledged and acted upon this principle, but
now, when Ireland, after three years of the direst misery,
was reduced to the lowest condition, they abandoued it,
and in the hour of its deepest distress deserted it. But
if he was to make a choice between the two evils he
should feel it to be his duty to give the preference to the
motion of the Hon. Member for Kerry, rather than the
proposition of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The
proposal of the rate in aid came at a singularly inau-
spicious moment. After a loss of between thirty and
forty millions of her capital and the infliction of two
millions of additional taxation, they propose.' to impose
another tax of 300,0001. They did this, too, at a
time when the agricultural products of Ireland were
debased in price at least 20 per cent. compared with
what they were five years ago. He was not going into
the question of the corn-laws; but this was certain, that
the interests of all classes in Ireland were bound up
with the interests of the landed class; and he would ask
whether, with the loss of nearly forty millions of capital,
and the depreciation of prices, this was a time to put an
additional tax upon an impoverished country? He would
remind the Noble Lord that it was because the British Par-

liament persisted in imposing unjust taxes that lost this
country the finest of her colonies. It was the unjust impo-
sition of taxes which cost a British monarch his head, and
though he did not say that the Irish people would take
up arms to resist this tax, yet certain it was that it would
alienate them from this country, and in the hour of dan-
ger it would find the error it had committed. The tax on
the North American colonies was imposed without the
pretext of representation, but in Ireland it was worse,
fur the tax was imposed under the pretext of a repre-
sentation which did not really exist. lie protested
against the imposition of this tax, because it was con-
trary to the spirit of the constitution, and because it
was unsuitable to the present miserable and impoverished
condition of the people of Ireland.
Lord C. HAMILTON would not have risen on that
occasion if it had not been for the manner in which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dundalk had attacked a
number of Hon. Gentlemen, some of whom had been
Members of that House, and especially the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cockermouth, whose manly and intelligent con-
duct during these debates, had not only reflected addi-
tional lustre upon his already well-earned reputation,
but who had tho courage to advocate what he called
justice to Ireland at the hazard of offending his consti-
tuents. The Hon. and Learned Member had next
attacked Mr. Twisleton, and the whole of the landlords
of Ireland. For his own part he knew of no public
services performed by the Hon. Member which justified
him in thus denouncing a whole class of her Majesty's
subjectti. One thing be would admit, that however
liberal in censure the Honourable Member had been, he
had been exceedingly sparing in argument in his sup-
port of the rate in aid. As a specimen of the arguments
he had adduced the alleged fact, that the Roman Catho-
lic clergy had petitioned that the poorer portions of their
flocks should be excused from paying the income-tax,
and insinuated that the proposition of an income-tax was
iend the Member for Kerry
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