The Sun.
London, England, 1825-05-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. WHITBREAD brought up the Report of the Commit.
tee on the Kensington Road Bill.
Mr. H. SUMNER objected to the Bill, because it gave an
unjust protection to certain property through which it passed,
and also on the ground of its partial operation.
Ordered to be re-committed. '

Mr. .1. MAXWELL moved the 'third reading or the
Renfrewshire- Road Bill, which was read a third time and

Mr. LINDSAY presented a petition from 'the Chamber of
Commerce of Dundee against the Clyde Navigation Bill.—
Laid on the table. •

Several reports on Private Bills were brought up, and laid on
the table.

WEST INDIA COMPANY BILL. •
Mr. MANNING moved the Order Of the Day'fof the third
reading of this Bill.
Mr. EVANS opposed the third reading, on the ground of its
tendency to place the slave population o the West Indies in a
worse condition-than-they were at present.
Mr. T. WILSON denied that such would be the effect
of the Bill. On the contrary, by the increased capital, that
would be embarked in West India property, the condition
of the slave would be improved considerably, for there would
exist greater means of relieving his wants, preserving him
from starvation, and in every respect contributing to his
comfort.

Dr. LUSH INGTON was opposed to the present Bill from
the way in which it must necessarily operate with respect to
the slave population of the West Indies. By its operation the
plantations would in a great degree become vested in this Com-
pany, instead of in the hands of individuals, and it would con-
sequently be productive of all the evils Which were entailed
upon the slaves, by having the concerns of the West India
estates conducted not by proprietors themselves, but by agents.
The passing of the Bill would also be opposed to the Resolu-
tions of 1823. As the establishment of this Company was cal-
culated to check manumission, and thereby to continue the
present system of slavery in the West Indies, he felt it his duty
to oppose the third reading of it.
Mr. HUME would suppose from the speech of his Hon. and
Learned Friend, that the proprietors of the West Indiin estates
resided on their estates. Now it was well known that it was
no such thing.—(Hear, hear !)--As to manumission, he thought
the slaves would have a better chance of being manumitted
under a Company than under individuals; he would therefore
support the present Bill.
Sir I. CO!'FIN.—Sir, I think this a very good Bill, and I
hope it will pass.
Mr. SYKES said there were three prominent objections to
this Bill: first, the difficulty of manumission ; secondly, that
it would have the effect of continuing the present system of
slavery in the West Indies, by enlisting 40,000 additional ene-
mies in the liberation of the slaves ; and thirdly, that the price
of West India produce would be augmented by the establish
ment of this Company.
Mr. R. GORDON said that the only object of the Bill was
to enable proprietors to borrow money from a Company instead
of from individuals. He quite differed from the Hon. Member
for Hull (Mr. Sykes) that this measure would deteriorate pro-
perty. It was his (Mr. Gordon's) conviction it would amelio-
rate the condition of the slave, as far as the condition of the
slave would be affected by-it. • •
Sir J. YORKE did not pretend to understand much of West
India property, but he could not understand how the Mort-
gagers of West India property would be in a better condition •
by the passing of the Bill than they-were before.
Mr'. MANNING, in an inaudible tone of voice, supported
the Bill.

Mr. F. BUXTON admitted that the redaction in the value
of slave labour had been greatly reduced, and that that reduc-
tion was greatly owing to the fre9uent agitation of the slave
question in that House. He admitted both these facts, but he
owned he did not regret them. It had been said in favour of
this measure, that it would serve the Colonies by increasing the
number of those who would take an interest in it. He would
admit that there might be• a greater number of persons con-
nected with it, but he was not prepared to admit the inference
of advantage derivable from it. The interest
tofeEmpire
l•
the
n'ilpeirset Indiathat
Colonies were already fully represented in that House. Mr. Fox
had formerly said thet there was no part of the
might be said to be more fully represented than our West India
Colonies, and he saw it mentioned in a Jamaica Gazette lately,
that on any question the plinters could command in that House
a phalanx of 200 Members.-(Hear!)—He regretted that
pi:id. not in a display
lealanx
poss
possessed such power as he saw it invariably exer-
cised, of
its
pure strength, but in an opposition
to every measure of humanity and justice for the relief of the
slave population. So far from relief to the slave population, he
apprehended great and augmented evil by haring proprietors
of four millions of money interested to that eery large amount,
in continuing the present system of slavery in our West Indian.
Colonies.
Mr. W. HORTON was, induced to siipporethe present Bill,
as from the manner in which its capital would be employed,
would tend to the relief .of .•the slave.population 'afar as they
would be affected by it. The Company only sough.; for leave 1
to sue and to be sued, as in the case of• individuals.: This was
not arming them:with any alarming power :-It would enable
them to relieve many of the distresses, now complained of as a
great evil. The planters would, by this -Bill, -be enabled to re-
thanthm from temporary were greater advantage
they now could, and they_ who s anxious to relieve
the sufferings of the slave population should remember that Mr
Wilberforce, in arguing this question, in 1789, contended that
the comfort of the slave should always be concomitant with and
in proportion to the • welfare of his master, • He contemplated
much advantage from the passing of ' the. preeent rneasure and
denied that there was any thing in the-principleor details of the
Bill aevariance with the reselutionszol,lfoe
-....,3. !as contended for
by the Hon. and Learned Member. ,
..
Mr. BROUGHAM hoped Honourable AI ,_
—.erfluerii would not
permit Themselves to be lulled to sleep under the erroneout idea
that this was a private Bill; it was no such thing
; it .-was a
Bill which was to extend all over_ tihe W ;Indies; -ncties'; whichivas
to affect every man, woman; anO.cld there,•and which was cal-
culated wexasperate to an,.incakuh' lahledegreettil' the misehitifs
and already intolerable evils under- which they • ~,,e4301-
rihg..
II e would, cement. w withdra! his oppusurion if he
_..,‘
notep
ov
mei r e
that' propos' tien.-4Some confusion ta the House. beret:wowed.)
He' requested that Hon. Gentlemen would remain quiet, or that
they would postpone the discussion until such time as they
found themselves in a fit state to legislate on a measure affect-
• ing "' ~., , N
0 O of their fellow-subjects.--(Hear, hear !)--At pre. •

sent, the only .secnriti which the slaves in thelreM Indies
had for any thing like mildness of treatment, til.4i azesident
humane master, who, from kindness, or some rnerciftamotive,
treated his slave with lenity. This was something like security s
but how would this security be diminished if 3,001 riles of
ocean intersected between him and his masters, sad i/icee Inas'
tent not responsible for their conduct in their individual capa-
city, but in the capacity of a Joint-stock Company. ItTiad been
admitted on all bands that the management of West !ale pro.
perty, not by the proprietors of it, but by agents,. Wee., one or
the greatest evils of the system. But how was it
prtiposed to
remedy this evil, which had been made an excuse hitherto on
the part of the proprietors for the maltreatment of the!'; slaves ?
To pass a Bill for the formation of a Board of Directors, all
of whom were to be distant three thousand miles from the IT
Indies,. which was to be effected by this measure. Instead of
a remedy it was an aggravation of the very evil complaihed of.
-(Hear, hear!)-Another objection that weighed with hint
to this hill was, that it made the property ideal by leaving
no real owner, for it would not appear Whether the -planter
who borrowed the money or the Company which advanced it was
to be regarded as fairly in poSsession, and responsible or not.-
But who was.now to be responsible for the cruelty. that may he
practised.-.a Company-_a Board of Directors in London.-
This was carrying Joint. Stock Companies to a length with a
vengeance. So far frotn imposing a restraint, the present bill
went to aggravate and encourage evils of the existing system.
.e.-(Hear' hear !)
• Mr. A. BARING said he knew nothing of the bill itself,
andliad no personal interest in it. lie thought, however, that
it was not the object of the bill to buy up West India' estates,
but only to carry on the business of West Intik merchants.-
Certainly it might happen that, in the course of that hneiness,
the Company might purchase estates, but it was not the'object
of•the bill. Much exaggeration had been evinced by Several
Hon. Members with respect to traffic in slaves. Ile did not
believe that it would increase that traffic; At present' there
was neither importation nor traffic in slaves. Within the Co-
lonies, the only cause for buying and selling Slaves was the dis-
tress of the Masters. If that distrem "coud be prevented the
traffic would necessarily be put an end to. If the Master was
half starved, the slave would be more than half starved; He
.believed the Bill would greatly ameliorate the condition. of the
slaves by preventing their frequent transfer. The property
likely to fall into the hands of the Company would be that which
was now mortgaged to the great• %Vest India houses in the city.
These houses had advanced money on them. But West india
property was regarded as less secure than formerly. The Mer-
chants were not so ready to advance money on it, and it had
accordingly 'fallen in value. Nor did he believe that the .laves
themselves would be in a worse condition under the; e.uperin-
tendance of a company than they were now, for the:company
would be obliged to give a yearly account of all their pro-
ceedings. He regretted the present existence of the slave
Trade amongst. Foreign Powers.-(Hear!).-Their dipltimatic
correspondence was wholly at variance with their ectual'prae-
tice. It was disgraceful and disgusting more especially in the
ca:: of France. The mass of misery had been increased by the
eilbrts of Great Britain to suppress it, though he Should have
deeply regretted if those efforts hail not been made.
Mr. W. SMITH said that the tendency of this Bill was
wholly public, and ought never to have been introduced as a
private bill; in the Committee it had never been discussed as iv
ought to have been. Ile joined in reprobating the conduct of
the Foreign Powers respecting the Slave Trade. The neces-
sary consequence of the Bill would be to draw into the power
and possession of the Company a great portion of the West
India estates; 'this would often happen by the way et .mort-
gages., There was no clause in the Bill to compel the from_
pans' to Tender, an annual account of its proceedings. 'l'hd pro-
spectus stated that 5 per cent. would be divided among4t the
shareholders: but Mr. Edwards and Sir W. Vounghad pioved
In .their respective-writings that the average profits of a West
India estate were not more than 4 per cent. Whence then: was
the additional profit to be derived ? II e entertained the greatest
dislike to the present measure, because it strove to keep up the
West Indian system,- which was at once pernicious and unpro-
fitable. The measure would delay those reforms which the
cause of humanity required.
Mr. C. R. ELLIS said, that the Bill would not, in his.opi-
nion, operate as an impediment to the amelioration of the'errn-
dition of the negroes.. He was anxious to see that ameliorae
tion effected. Ile could not discover how the measure could
prevent that amelioration. The object of the Bill was to form
a Company for carrying on the business of West India Mer-
chants, and to advance money on West India property.' It
would hare nothing in the world to do with manteging the
estates in the islands. The apprehension; therefore; of lion.
Gentlemen were extremely ill-founded. By advancing money
on estates it did not necessarily* follow that their present ma-
nagement would be changed. Nor would they often beCorne
proprietors by means of mortgages,-as they would have adisio-
clination to foreclose such mortgages. The measure would be
a great accommodationto the'planters, and would prevent the
frequent transfer of slaves. On these grounds he should sup.
port the original motion for the third reading.
The House then divided, and the minabers were-
For
the third reading -.•. . :. -•- 103
Against it - - - - - -
Alajorityin favour of the thitd reading
The Bill was then read a third time and passed
SLAVE TRADE.
Mr. Secretary CANNING laid upon the table Copies of
Treaties between this Country and Sweden and N , , orway re_
specting the Slave Trade. He said that Sweden herself-had
never engaged in this traffic, but her flag had• been. used to
cover that trade. It had been the object of the British Govern-
ment to obtain permission to search such vessels as might cerry
on the trade under the flags of unsuspected nations, and eo tar
as Sweden was concerned, that permission haid been ebtained.
He was sorry that he could not announce a favourable termi-
nation to similar negociations with the United States of Ame-
rica. The Treaty, respecting which some difficulties to-r-
-rnerly arose,- had not been ratified, and lie was mit theretora
able to convey any satisfactory tidings to the House uptru the
subject . .
NORTH-WEST COAST OF .AMERIc4.,., ,
Mr. Secretary CANNING' laid on the :table the ,'9py,ef a
Convention between liiillajesty and the Eaiperor qf.,elluseia,
respecting 'the North-west Coast of AmeriCa. . lie seid idle
House would recollect, that a feW years ago; aelliissian Ukase
had been published, which set up some overbearing claims re-
specting this territory. The present Convention completely
abrogated the claims of that Vitale, arid the question was now
so completely settled that no new disputes were likely !.oArist--
(Hear !) .
' Ina DE 'LA PLATA: '
Mr. Secretary CANNING laid. do the table 'the *Copy of a
Treaty of Amity, CommerCe, and Navigation be.eweere this
Majesty and the United Provinces Or kio'de la flatti.7l(liqa,r!)
Sir it. WILSON rose-to express' his gratificationat.,*4n:.
so auspicious a Treaty laid "upon the table 031.-.Pa'rliaryilif!..mi It
did' great honour to this country; and was at :the', :9»nel time
a homage paid to the rights.of man and dielii)eralconsiimtiQUS
of the New World. It exalted but character,wbilie.iteeeeentleti
our Strength, by ensuring to iiit 'the.,Cdtriineraal,rewards df a
freeintercotirse with millionS ofencilanini:tted: 4 th, ritiblpq
motives to pursue a career of honour', industry, and preesigefey.
The free provinces of America had sueceetleil so ietr,.chggia
without evincing any thing discrettitablkye. ecia itnAtiiing,..and
the tirSt use of their victory was to: give, libeet:y:.tio every
human being who breathed upon their Soil,;/ce.beye teetinumY
to the high character of Bolivare, who had Won fere,h4segean
imperishable renown. Ile pa* in the O*9t,Veikty:plily.,;jl,.:
first of a series which would embrace thin iv4l4;.,ocelteetkiste-
rican continent." . lie could not sit &Wit wiihotit expressing. his
respect and his gratitude to the British Govermaeot, for hav-
ing., by this measure, 'established tlieiptereifs 404.44 Britein
in South America, by securing the tgat4a4Weief.:elee .4)!Mieican
people.=:- (Hear!) - . . , .
..
:, The-several Papers were then. ordered 14 be 'Fir i4re,d,t, , ' ,n
Mr. H. S.E Y i1017.1t presented a'petitkin.ribi. 11,-5- ii,f,4,14,,,
Of Lisburne against the ''Dtity 60,- C9d.i.LLOrde'red to be
. . .
.... , .. ...
printed: .
Me. CUR'rEIS rose to
.complain or 4 wisripFesentakion.in a
Morning Paper 'which 'had stated Pratlieupporti?l, instfad;of
opposed a eiiim a measure.-(Order;-order) ~., . , .
Mr; CURTEIS.-Arn- I Mit of miler. ' - .. , ..., , .
-The SPEAKER.-Certainly; if the .Honotm4bk lewher
asks my 'opinion,- I must say yes, unleiiithe.flipaot,ira 4 494 i -
her roposee to conclude" by culling the.. i?lf,:r.ridsfjo'', elgrer;ibl
the Hoolte. • ' -' • '' ' 4?

---73

- •
ei.Tß'r EIS d e CI in id 'doing so, Pail the aftati'lt'efrill ip a Lull
lair: SYKES presented a petition Iltim ;!_he.cetiigent PliMters
and-other liihibitantAif a' certain parish -the 'Jo-
'mak* oli'NVesf•fittlia affalie.:=-LOttlered to be printed.
Mr. ELLIS presented a petition from the Governor in Coun-
cil and Assembly of the Island of St. Christopher, relative to
West Indian Atiiiirs.—Laid on the table.
Mr. Jorts WI t.t.talits presented a petition from the under-

-aired indiviauals against the County Czurts Bill.—Laid on
the table.
Mir T. larTABR/DOS presented a petition from the Coach-
MASTS of Bath against the revival of the Combination Laws.—
leid on the table.
MIL W. SMITH presented a petition from the Unitarian
Dissenters of Exeter, in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief
)iii.—Laid on the table.
"Mr. 110B110USZ presented a petition from certain mas-
ter Cotton Spinners of Manchester, in favour of the regula-
Ikon of the labour of Manufacturing Children.—Ordered to be
-1111 k. HUME presented a petition from certain Journey-
_ MS Boot and Shoemakers of Newcastle-upon-Tyne against
a seiival of the Combination Laws.—Ordered to be printed.
JUDGES SALARIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, ac-
.4e,.46sig to the Order of the Day, that the House should resolve
twit into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the
Nth George 111. relative to an increase of the salaries of the

Judges.
'fhe SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. LEYCESTER declared, that that was not a time to
increase the salaries of public officers, when the President
of the Board of Trade was going to make Corn cheaper than
it had been for a lono time. He thought that a third assize
Haight be established without any increase of labour on the
Judges. He could not see why four Judges should sit together
las.the Court of King's Bench, and four in the Exchequer, add
four in the Common Pleas. Three in each of those Courts would
:much better, and the remaining three might go the third
Assize. He should take that opportunity of observing aLso,
shat the system of the Welch Judges ought to be corrected
or abolished ; one of those judicial personages might be
seen one day on the bench, a second at the bar, and a third
in the character of it politician. The appointment of them
yroceedcd generally from their political conduct, or some
elose borouech interest. That was a system which ought to be
:altered.
The SPEAKER having left the Chair,
The CH NUELLOtt of the EXCH EQLTER %aid, that it
would be an idle waste of the time of the Committee, and an
hnnecessary recurrence to previously considered questions, if
be should employ any lengthened detail of arguments to im-
press upon the committee the importance of the subject which
behad proposed for their consideration. The House had been
long in the habit of attending to the mode in which legal justice
was administered through the land, and had often expressed a
desire that the seat of justice should be filled by those alone
who were competent to discharge the duties of that high
official trust. The House had often declared their sense of the
importance of those duties, by conferring upon the Judges a
. rate of salaries adequate to the labours and the dignity of their
station, by occasionally altering the laws which regulated those
salaries, and by influencing the removal from the judicial bench
of such persons as they considered unworthy of that elevated
office.—( Hear !)—lt was not, however, his intention to follow
up on that occasion all the observations of the Hon. Member
who had last spoken, nor had he then any thing to propose to
the Committee relatively to the Welch Judges; his present ob-
eect was merely to act on the Report made by the Commission
for Inquiring into the emoluments of the Judges, and to carry
into effect by Bill certain alterations recommended by authority.
of that Commission. His first proposal should be to prevent
the sale of certain official situations in the Courts of King's
Bench and Common Pleas, which were at present disposable
by the Chief Justices of those Courts.--( Hear !)—The custom
of selling those places, and that by the very chiefs of those
Courts, was inconsistent with the independence and dignity of
those high Judicial Officers.— (Hear !)—He would grant that
the sale of the places under those two Judges was reserved
to them by the law which abolished the sale of the situa-
tion in other Courts, but he would not coincide that the
authority even of antiquity could defend a practice which was
intrinsically improper. The emoluments arising from the sale
of those places served to constitute, in a great proportion, the
salaries of those Judges; but as the persons who purchased
those may bold them from their youth for a long time, one
Judge may never have an opportunity of receiving emolu-
ment by the lawful disposal of the situation, while another,
perhaps his successor, may be able to sell it at the very mo-
'tient he entered his office. The contingent and accidental
nature of these emoluments was inconsistent with the just
principle • of compensating public services. There were four
places in the Court of King's Bench which produced very great
emoluments ; for instance, that of the Chief Clerk, the Clerk
of the Treasury, the office of Customs Brevium, and that of
Filacer Utlegium. There was another situation, the appoint.
ment to which belonged to the Chief Clerk, and several other
places besides ; it' then it was improper that the Chief Jus-
tice should continue to possess the right of selling the prin-
cipal offices, it was equally improper that the Clerk should
continue to retain the disposal of the subordinate ; the right
of selling tho latter should be also abolished.—(Hear, hear !)
There were some offices in the Court of Common Pleas
also, which were saleable, these he would detail in the Bill,
which he hoped the House would permit him to submit to them.
There was another important circumstance in the ease of the
Judges which also required the correcting hand of reform,
namely, that which made their salaries depend on the fees of
office.—(llear!)—The mode of payment was inconsistent with
the dignity of the judicial station and with the simplicity of
the British juridical system. If the litigants refused to pay the
fees, the Judge could certainly use legal measures to compel.
Lim ; but then was it not lowering of hts dignity to oblige him
to exact his official salary by suck an unseemly collision with
• the suitors of his Court.—(Hear !)—He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) did not, however, mean to propose that no fees
Should be collected ; lie only meant that they should not be
paid to the Judges. They may be collected by the present
clerks, the expence of collecting may be deducted from
them, and the remainder may be paid into the Treasury,
and used in lessening any additional expence which a new me-
thod of paying the Judges may create. The Puisne Judges
were also placed in awkard circumstances, their salaries amount-
ed to I,ONR:a year, arising partly front the Civil List and
partly from fees. If the annual sum of the fees was not suffi-
cient to make up the difference between the grant from the
Civil List and the 4000/., they were obliged to call on the Con-
solidated Fund for it ; and before they received it, to make
oath of the precise amount of the fees which they received ;
thus they were, in fact, made public accomptants.—( 11 ear !)
These were the points recommended in the report of the com-
mission. Ills proposed arrangement, relative to the abolition
of the sale, of those offices, would of course tend to deprive the
two Chief' Justices of considerable emoluments. He was of
opinion, then, that the regulation of the mode of paying them
ought to be founded on some sound general principle.—( Hear!)
—lt was impossible to fix the precise suns of the value of those
vsinable offices. However, he bad thought of a scheme
for the payment of the Chief Justice's salary, which lie
trusted would be found suitable to the rank of that great
• officer. The Chief Justice of the King's Bench had at present
4,0001. from the civil list ; this sum was lessened by the pay-
ment of the land-tax and other charges sanctioned by an-
cient custom ; the remainder of his salary consisted of fees ;
and the collective sum amounted to 9.2001. a year, which
being reduced by the subtraction of 5001. land-tax, left him
something less than 9,0001. Now lie (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) thought that the annual salary of that officer ought
• not to be less thin I0,0001.—(11ear !•) particularly when he re-
• collected the exalted dignity and importance of the office it-
self, the high professional rank and character of its occupant,
and the eminent talent and great labour which were neces-•
sary for the adequate execution of its duties. Next came the
--011ie(' Justice of the Court of Common Pleas. This office
was certainly inferior to that of the Chief of the King's
• ..Bench, in rank, importance, and emoluments. He thought
that the distinction between them ought to be still kept up;
bat the Chief of the Common Pleas would also be affected
- in his emoluments by the abolition of the sale of the places
in his Court. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was of
opinion diet the salary of that officer ought sot to be less than:
8,0001. a year. . His present salary was not so much as that, but
there ought not to be so great a difference between the salaries
of the two Chief Justices: not that be was of opinion that
the Chief Justice of the Co:nolo:1 Pleas ought never to be
raised to the head of the King's Bench ; but hts salary ought
certainly to be of such an amount, that be should have no pecu.
• Diary reason to feel any extraordinary aspirations for the eleva-
tion to the higher office on the King's Bench.—(Hear!)—But
there was another office still higher than that of Chief Justice of
the Common Pleas, namely, the Master of the Rolls, the salary
of which was not increased when an addition was being made
• to the emoluments of the other Judges; and that in consequence
of the delicacy of the Gentleman who then held the office—he
alluded to the late Sir William Grant.—(Hear, hear !)—Now
• the salary of that officer ought to be placed ceteris parihur
on a similar footing with those of the other Judges —(cleer,
hear l)--His present salary arose in part from fees, partly
from the Civil List, and partly from the rental of an estate
belonging to the Master of the Rolls. The total rarely ex-
ceeded 4,0001. and sometimes fell short of iteand was in fact less
than that of an inferior officer, the Vice-Chancellor. He would
lay no stress on the additional duty which the :Vaster of the
Rails may have to undergo, as Member of the Privy Council,
and of a Peer, as Deputy Speaker in the House of Lords; the
present salary was inadequate to his rank and ditties as Master
of the Rolls. He.(the Chaticeller of the Exchequer) proposed
to raise it to 7,0001 a year—he the Chief Baron lie would pro.
pace the same salary. The. office had no sale of places attached
• to it, and required eminent ability and great labour from the
person who may happen to hold it. The Vice-Chancellor
would be 'alone wronged if he were omitted amid the ge-
neral increase—the present salary was 5,0001. He would
propose to raise it to 6,0001. As to the Puisne Judges, there
were circumstances connected with their situation of consie
• derable importance. !The aystern of promotion applied to

them as to others : their situation ought, on that account, to
be mach as to enable Gentlemen to discharge the duties of the
office with ability and independence, from the first moment
of their coming into it. When the House brought to mind
the large annual stun which an eminent lawyer could make at
the bar, and the comparatively low salary paid to the Puisne
.fudges, he was sure they would agree with him that the situa-
tion ought to be made, in point of emolument, such a one as
would induce men .of -talent .and professional eminence to
accept it before age or bodily infirmity rendered them less ca-
pable of discharging its toilsome duties.—( Hear !)—Their pre-
sent salary of 4,0001. was too little; he would propose • that it
should be ipereased to 6,0001. ; not, how,ever, because they lost
anything by'deduction; but on the principle of procuring for
the situation, men of character, talent, and learning, while their
years and health permitted them to transact the business of it
with credit to themselves and advantage to the public.—(Hear,
hear !)—He was glad that the )louse appeared to receive his
proposals so favourable. He had no motive in making them
but to introduce such a method of remunerating those great
public officers as may be consistent with the public importance
of the official trust, with the dignity of the social station, and
the exalted and long.celebrated character of English laws and
English Judges.—(cheers.)—He could anticipate no objection
on the score of expence ; lie could prove that even in point of
economy the plan was better than the existing one: but look-
, ing at its principle of inducing able and eminent lawyers to take
the judicial situations, and of rewarding them in a ratio adequate
to their ability and their character, he would feel happy if his
system contributed to the distinction and elevation of those re-
spectable Gentlemen, who so ably filled the office of Judges of
• the country.—(Cheers.)--Before he sat down, he should add,
that he proposed to abolish immediately the power of selling the
offices, which were in the disposal of the two Chief Justices,
• and leaving the places which were in the hands of the clerks, to
the present holders during their life, as they had purchased
1 them on that condition. _

Mx. DENMAN agreed with much of the principle laid down
by the Rt. Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer),
though he could not admit some of the consequences deduced
front it. He assented to the propriety of withdrawing the right
to sell certain offices and to receive certain fees, from the Chief
Justices of the Courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas, but
that would lead him no farther than to make compensation ex-
actly to the amount of loss those persons might so suetain._
On no principle, however, could he perceive that the Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas ought to be remunerated in the
proportion to the Head of the Court of King's Bench, which
had been stated.—namely, that of four to five. Let the value
of the abolished fees be given but no more to each. That the
Master of the Rolls should be placed on the same footing with
the Vice-Chancellor he had no objection. For the advance of
salary to the other Judges he conceived no case whatever had
been made out. Their emoluments were never so high as at
present, for he understood they exceeded 2,6001. per annum
above all expenses, and moreover the proposed addition was
not asked by themselves. In 1809, when the salaries of the
Judges were last raised, they had to pay 10 per cent. Property
Tax, which neelonger existed. But, at all events, he thought
the salaries ought to be finally fixed ; and if labour were to be
a criterion of reward, the Puisne Judges of the Common Pleas
and Exchequer were undoubtedly entitled to less than those of
the King's Bench. The duties of the latter had recently been .
much increased ; but in the Common Pleas it was no unusual
thing for the Court to sit between ten and eleven o'clock in the
forenoon, and rise between eleven and twelve. The reason,
however, it seemed why the salaries of the Judges ought to be
raised was, that persons might be appointed to the office who
would discharge their duties satisfactorily to the public. Were
not those duties, then, properly performed at present ? And
if they were, on what principle was this grant 'proposed ?
where was the necessity of holding out further induce-
ments to Gentlemen of extensive practice at the Bar, when
already the' Bench was all that could be desired ? In reality
the office was not so much paid by. money, as by the dignity it
conferred: and before a man accepted it, he ought to have
amassed a competent fortun&—which the exaltation would
not add to but adorn. Puisne Judges ought likewise to
be immovable, and neither expect Peerages nor translations.
The increase from 4,000!. to 6,0001. a-year would not improve
the society of those learned persons; they could be nothing but
the highest of the middle classes, which was preferable to being
the lowest of the higher classes. Neither could they hope to
get out of those purlieus of time town which were unknown to
fashionable life, for he lately understood that such a place as
Russell-square was never heard of at the 'West End of the 31e-
tropolis.—(A laugh.)—lt therefore appeared to him that the
Resolution embraced more than it ought, and he should op-
pose it.
Dr. LUSH INGTON was not satisfied of the solidity on
which his lion. and Learned Friend who had just sat down ob-
jected to the present proposition. There was but one object on
all hands—to obtain able, efficient, and independent Judges,
and with that view their salaries ought to be adequate to meet
all their wants. To abolish the sales of offices in Courts ofJuetice
was a result for which even some sacrifices might be made—and,
conditionally, his Hon. and Learned Friend did not object to
10,0001. being granted to the Chief Justice of the King's Bench.
With respect to the Puisne Judges, he was at a loss how any
one could suppose, 4,0001. a year adequate remuneration for
their services. It was said, however, that they had made no
claim for an increase of salary, and they certainly had not de-
graded-themselves by doing so; but if it was meant thence to
infer that those Learned and Hon. Persons did not suffer great
privations from the rate of their emoluments, he must give the
supposition a fiat denial. Time Hon. Member proceeded to ex-
plain the important and laborious duties of the Judges. He
could not agree that a man should only be raised to the Bench
at so advanced a period of life as to render it an honourable
retirement. What was sometimes the consequence of such a
system, that Judges continued in harness to the last pm)? It
was said that no difficulty had been found in procuring lawyers
to accept of seats on the bench. But if so, it was a great
hardship to oblige any individual to sacrifice the interest of
himself and his family to the public benefit. Upon these
grounds he entirely approved of the proposed addition to the
income of the Puisne Judges. With respect to the Common
Pleas and the Exchequer, his opinion was that they might to
share the labour of the King's Bench, and that the obstacles to
that course ought to be removed. One of the obstacles in the
first of these Courts, he understood to be, that the practice
there was monopolised by the Serjeants at I saw, and not open
to the Bar generally. Another was certain fees exclusively
paid in that Court. The obstacle in the Exchequer arose from
the business of the Court being confined to one set of attornies.
These, however, were matters of regulation not necessarily em-
braced in the present measure. Another alteration became ex-
pedient from time augmentation of the criminal business, which
at the Old Bailey had doubled within the last fifteen yea's, and
notwithstanding time third assize which had been introduced at
the last Lent Assizes, the Judges were unable to dispose of the
civil actions. To meet these circumstances, he thought the ju-
riediction.of the Old Bailey ought to be extended to time limits
of the bills of mortality, and with a view to time saving of time
in time Court of King'a.Bench the Judges of Assize should be
authorized to pamei sentences in Crown cases instead of having
the parties brought up to town for judgment. :\ fter a few words
against preferment on the Bench, and recommending that a
distinction should he made in abolishing fees between those re.;
seised as a sinecure and 'those paid-for duties performed, the
' Hon. and Learned . Gentleman concluded by supporting the
Resolution.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS agreed with his lion. and Learned
Friend (Mr. Denman) that time Chief Justices ought to he corn-
pensated to the extent of their losses, but no farther. The most
I important part of the measure appeared to hint to be that which
related to the Puisrie. Judges. /le waited to hear of instances
where Barristers in the prime of life had refused that office, but
found none, although on an average for the last '25 years, no
man under 60 years of age had been raised to that department
of the Bench. Ile regretted that no provision was mentioned
for Judges who retired. The difference in the business of the •
different Courts was remarkable—in time Exchequer, he under-
stood, for the next term, there were but from seven to ten civil
actions ; whereas in the King's Bench for Westminster, there
were 250, and in the Common Pleas for Westminster, about 25.
The cause of' the fei cases in time Exchequer was, that the 16
clerks of the Court were-the only attornies allowed to practice
in it. He wished to see means adopted for effecting a more
equal distribution of business in those Courts, before the Judges
of them were put on equal salaries.
Mr. Secretary PEEL felt obliged to the lion. and Learned
Member for Lincoln (Mr. J. 'Williams), for the support he had
given to' the Resolution. He had explicitly declared, that for
the last 25 years no man of less than i;0 years of age could be
found to accept the office of Puisne Judge, and therefore este-
blished the necessity of applying, the mild persuasive of an
additional income, to secure time acceptance of those appoint-
ments by persons having those Intern et tires, which time Hp.
Inourable and Learned Member-seemed to think so indispene
sable to time due administration of justice. Such a general
ground of proceeding was infinitely better than any instance
which could be adduced. The Honourable Member for Not-
tingham, however. did not agree in this principle with his
Hon. and Learned Friend, for he would have none but barris-
ters who had amassed fortunes raised to the judgment seat.
He (Mr. Peel) was opposed to any such etristocratical rale ;
let time salary be made adequate to the duties and the dignity
of the office, and then, no matter if a man were not worth,
5,0001' in the world, provided he possessed time necessary qua..
lifications, he ought to be appointed. The detailed measures.
toadverttel by the Hon. Gentleman opposite could not be ap-
propriatelythoucgol they coupled
pl i t with
might
he amore
considered
natural
'aacUon Z
inittee,
quencee of this step. The fees received by individuals could
pecuniary grant
na
not be cut off until compensation were ready to be made them.
At present the private interests of those persons must prevent
a fair consideration of, the question. Upon time subject of pro-.

moting Pusine Judges to be (grief Justices, he would only
ask, was it not possible that it had arisen from the inadequate
remuneration at present enjoyed by the Chief Justices which
led to the rejection of the office by Barristers of great prac-
tice and experience, and that it had not arisen from any
wish on the 'part of Government to exercise improper influ-
ence over the Bench. The principle of compensation laid
down by the Honourable Member for Nottingham would not
apply to the Heads of the several Courts. The emoluments
of the Chief Jusoce of the Kine'a Bench were now 9,2001. per
annum, and when in future the privilege of selling certain
offices was to be taken away he really thought as- they were
oblige:l to name some arbitrary sum that 10,0001. was a very
moderate amount. With rtipect to the Court of Exchequer,
he for one was anxious to have the practice thrown open to
the profession, and had had the subject for some time under his
consideration. If. therefore, this subject and matters relative
to the Common Pleas, were not particularly noticed by his
Right Finn. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the omis-
sion diet not arise from any insensibility on the part of his Ma-
jesty's Government to those considerations, but from their irre-
levancy to the proposed vote.—( Hear, hear !)
Mr. SCA BMA', who was vary indistinctly heard in the
Gallery; conceived the sum at which the salary of the Chief
Justice aed been fixed as too small. Such an office ought to be
rendered worth the acceptance of an Attotney-General who
unquestionably, except on the balance of an expected change
of Ministry, would not deem it deserving of his notice. The
salaries of the Mimic Judges, however, ought not, on the other
hand, to be rated-too high, lest it might lead to appointments
from political or borough influence. The lion. and Learned
Gentleman, after eulogising the anxiety of the present Judges
of the Court of King's Bench to dispatch public business, en-
tered into some criticisms as to the mode in which that end was
sought to be attained.
The ArI'ORNE 1"--GE NE R A L had only a few observations
to offer in reply to the other side. Resides the civil causes of
Exchequer, the whole business of the Revenue trials took
place there, and after term the Judges sat in Equity in Gray's
Inn Hell. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman pro-
ceeded to justify the sums .proansed to he given as ;Wall-
tional salaries by the Resolution before the Committee.--
It had been said t7:at no one had ever refused the office of
Judge because he could not -afford it. This was not at all
necessary ta his argument; 'bet be could adduce the example of
Mr. Justice Dampier in contradiction to the statement. A
better Judge never eat upon the Bench, yet his had refused the
appointment until, he fell into bad health, because he could
not aftiird to accept it before. The expences of legal educa-
tion were not taken into in this question. Neither
was it borne in Mind the style of living which, in a Judge,
was indispensable. A Barrister, out of 3,2001., could lay by
2,000/. ; a Judge could lay by nothing. lie never knew a
Barrister lay by money after he was raised to the Bench ; and
what chance, under such circumstances, had a Judge of leaving
an adequate provision for his family ? As far as related to the
Chief Justiceship, he hoped this proposition would be consi-
dered its matter of arrangement, the fees being taken into
consideration.. For time reasons he had •given he should sup-
port the motion.
Air. SCA:iI.I7TT explained.
Sir Ala W. RIDLEY supported the motion. Such were the
expences of the profession of the law that he thought it im-
possible a lawyer could acquire a sufficiency of money to
make a provision for his children, unless a higher salary were
given to the Judges. The Judges were taken from the most
eminent in the profession, and it followed as a matter of course,
that as_ a. lit remuneration the. salary should be adequate.
Sir C. FORBES said lie entirely concurred in the expediency
of the motion.
Mr. HUME thought that no grounds whatever had been laid
for the. motion. It had not been shewn diet any Judge had ever
complained of his situation ; nor had it been shewn that the
Bench could be better filled than it had been ; therefore the
present motion would inply to any officers of Government
with reference to an augmentation of their salary. This he
feared was the commencement of a system fur raising public
salaries, and therefore he thought it was more important than
upon its own ground it appeared to be. lie thought they ought
to have further information before they ventured upon such a
step.
Mr. TIMM AYNE expressed his cordial assent in the
mo-
tion. Ile had followed the steps of the lion. Member for Aber-
♦ deen in his motions for economy ; but, upon the present occa-
sion he could not with satisfaction go along with him.
Mr. DENMAN agreed with his lion. Friend the Member
for Aberdeen that no case had been mule out fur raising the
Salaries of the Judges. Ile thought that compensation should
he made for the Lord Chief.lustices' fees, anti that the Master
of the Rolls should have the same salary as the Vice• Chance-
l. lor. Never had more futile arguments been put forward for
such a purpose as die present. The best paid was the worst
, administered part of the law ; and he moved as an amendment
: i that all matters in the present motion excepting those he had
mentioned should be postponed for further consideration.

Mr. H. DRUMMOND said, that after mature deliberation
he was of opinion th:tt the salaries of the Scotch Judges ought
to have a reasonable addition.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said, he had
not looked with the same minuteness at -the situation of the
scotch Judges when he lad *tamed his resolution, as to the
English Judges. fie did not mean; however, to pronounce
one way or the other with regard to them. With respect to ire.
land,,it should be remembered that the Master of the Rolls in
Ireland had received an addition since,the Judges of this coun-
try. The way to look at this question wzis, whether the salary
was adequate to the particular ditties of the office to which it
was attached ; and certainly if he thought any office was under-
paid he should not hesitate to propose an increase.
Colonel BM; WELL observed, the Puisne Judge was to re-
ceive B,ooot. a year whilst the Judge in Ireland received only
5,500 t. lie thought this, considering the labour of the office,
was too small. _

Mr. HUME eXplXined.
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY said that he came down to the
House with the intention of not voting for this motion ; but
after what he had heard of the sale of certain claims of the
Chief Justice, he felt hound to say that he thought the Right
lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made an excellent
bargain for the public.
Sir F. BuRDETT opposed the motion. The situations of
Judges never were better filled, and therefore there was a con-
clusive argument against the.. I louse of Commons opening the
public purse. As a matter of generosity an addition to the sala-
ries of the present Judges might he made ; but he could not un-
derstand how it could be a matter of necessity. He did not mean
to say that he should be against raising the salaries of Judges,
but he thought there was a want of further information before
they took such a step. The question for the country was, how
justice could be cheaply administered, and if the augmentation
of the Judges salaries or the augmentation of their numbers
would have that effect, he should feel no difficulty in ec-
quiescing in a motion to that effixt. Now it appeared to hint
that they had no evidence befOre them to justify their taking
such a step. They had no means of knowing-that the-proposed
measure would have the effect which he contemplated, and in
that state of ignorance how could they proceed. He was, there-
time of opinion thht they had no information before them to.
justify their going beyond the terms of the amendment, -for
which he thought himself bound to vote.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the Hon. baronet waa quite mistaken in thinking there was no
information before the House upon which to proceed. The fact
was, that there were two or three reports, anti very elabocate
ones., of Commissioners, part of whose duty had been to in-
vestigate the amount and nature of the fees of the Chief
Justices. •
-air F. Britttx-ra• erplhined.
Mr. SCAR I.Erf moved as amendment that the salary of
the Chief Justice should be determined by the emoluments of
the office for the last 20 years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he
thought it better to take some specific sum as a proposition,
rather than what had been the gains or losses of any individual
or individuals.
Mr. Secretary PEEL opposed the amendment. He did not
think it would furnish an adequate criterion for the proper
salary of the officer alluded to.
After a few words front 31r. W. SMITH and Mr. DENMAN,
Mr. 1101111013 SE thought the augmentation of the Judges'
salaries might have the effect of an attack upon the indepen-
dence of the Rate A man would surrender his honesty for
6,0001. sooner than lie would for 4,0001. This he spoke of man
as he was known, and not of any particular individual. He
did not mean to say that the Judges were over-paid ; but they
had no evidence upon which to proceed to make an addition.
op:lOrs.elti h.eNmVoliti"SonOfNor
supported7o
the Judges were paid 3,000 L than 6,1)001., but he should not
opoolr.tei the measure. Ho had rather
31r. D: GILBERT said, he should support the motion upon
general principles. •
The two' A tnendments were then respectively put to the vote
and negatived without a division.
Sir J. WROrI'ESLEY proposed 3,0001. instead of 6,0001:
for the salaries of the Pitisne 'Judges.
Mr. I)EN3IAN supported the Amendment, which was ne-
gatived without a divieion.
Colon'el BAGWELL thought the Chief Justice in Ireland
should he considered and provided for.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE It seid; 'the
cis-
cumstances which gave rise to the measure before the House
did not apply to the Judges of Ireland: • • " •
Mr. S. RICE said, the question as it applied to the •English
Judges had no relation to the. ,Judges.
Mr. FORBES the 'Judges of Scotland. ought to be
considered by the Hottee. • • • •

_The Other resolutions haying been agreed to, the House re- I
sumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
COTTON Al ILLS.
The order for the second reading of the Cotton Mills Regu-
lation Bill was read.
Mr. HORNBY said the House had already legislated on the
subject, and further interference with Cotton Mills he considered
unnecessary. 11inch exaggeration had gone abroad respecting
the working of children. He was enabled to say the children
were in a better situation than the weavers working in their own
cellars. lie should move as an amendment that die Bill be re-
gulated a second time that day three months.
Mr. HOBHOUSE supported his Bill. Children could not
protect themselves in factories, and Parliament had always in-
terfered. Children were made to work any number of hours
for the interest of cotton spinners. There was an Act of Par-
liament which limited the working of men to ten hours and a
half; yet the children were worked twelve hours a day. He
could add, that the children worked more than twelve hours.—
For five or six weeks Sir It. Peel's Bill was operative, anti
the children began to look better, hot the'masters in a short time
endeavoured to infringe on it. Few. proceedings at law had
been adopted. In the best regulated mills children worked
14 hours in die day in an atmosphere of 80 de..rees. This was
described as an evil which called loudly for the interference of
Parliament. They ought to do something to remedy the evil.
Mr. PENT, could not support the Bill nor the amendment.
The Bill imposed a further limitation of- labour. It had been
said, a former act on the subject was evaded. That. whieliwas
the law of the land ought to be Obeyed, and therefore it might
be advisable to give the Magistrates the means of inforeing
the iaw.

Jr. 3 W. SMITH said the provisions of Sir R. Peel's Bill
had been abused in the most shocking manner.-
Mr. TULK
,supported the Bill.
Mr. PHILLIPS admitted that the Bill had been evaded for
the purpose of taking away some of the relaxation allowed the
children on Saturday. The condition of the people working in
the factories was. better than.that of weavers working at their
homes. He opposed the Bill because he thought it would de-
prive the children of employ. It appeared to bids a dangerous
thing to agitate this question. •
Sir F. BURDErf thought no Parliamentary interference
ought to take placein free labour,: but that argument did not
am ply to the case under considenition. All must allow that,
great advantage had,been derived from the interference of Par-
liament in these factories. The fact was, a number of helpless
innocent beings had been treated in a most inhuman manner.
The employment of children twelve hours a day was a shocking
instance of inhumanity. IVould any man work a horse twelve
hours every day ? The llon. Baronet said that his feelings on
the subject were so strong, that he could not refrain from ex:.
pressing them.
Mr. G. Prw.trrs explained.
'Sir P. MUSGRAVE opposed the measure. There had been
no previous enquiry to shew that the grievances existed. He
had no objection to the latter clauses which went to put in
execution the existing laws.
Dr. LUSH INGTON protested against the doctrines of po-
litical economy being suffered to preVent the House from pro-.
tecting the interests of those who could not protect themselves.
Every man who had a spark of humanity in his bosom, ought
to oppose the existing harsh system. It was worse than Negro
slavery with regard to the unhealthiness of the atmosphere and
the quantity of labour. The evidence before the House some
years ago proved the scandalous nature of the system. Mere
children were not voluntary agents, and the House ought to
take them under its especial care.
Mr. J. SMITH said, that ahhoughin some cotton mills chil-
dren were well used, yet there were others where the most
frightful oppression existed. Flax mills-were worse than cotton
mills, and they ought to be included, but he would not move
any amendment to that effect.
Mr. EVANS said, that as a proprietor of a large manufac-
tory, he bore his testimony to the necessity of some such
measure. It would even be of service to the manufacturers
themselves. No doubt oppression existed, but. he could not
admit that it equalled the horrors of Negro Slavery. He gave
his most cordial support to the proposition.
Mr. G. P1111.1.11'3 explained again.
Mr. II ORNIIY then withdrew the amendment.
The bill was accordingly read a second time and ordered to
be connuitted for Friday.