The Sun.
London, England, 1822-04-26 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

•
HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY) APRIL 25.
o-day prayers were read by the Bishop of
r4x ETU'I at about a quarter to four o'clock, and
•
soon_after the House proceeded with the dispatch
of local and private business.
'IIIr. TioMLINS, from the Treasury, 'delivered at the Bar
lUtdiy Accounts, pursuant to an Order of this House.
c„ MESSAGES FROM THE COMMONS.
eir JAMES GRAHAM, Sir H. •HARDINGE, Mr. CORHETT,
tr!d others, brought up the Flax and Cotton Bill, the Edin-
burgh City improvement Bill, and' some other Local Bills,
Which Were afterwards read a first time.
A The Durham Paving Bill was also brought up, with the
41-rnendments of their Lordships as agreed to.
Earl of SHAFTESBURY laid upon the table,6th, 7th,
th ro f
and 9th Reports m the Cmissioers of Inuir into
e Courts of Justice in Scotland om
and then salaries oft they oils.
tors ; which, upon the motion of his Lordship, were ordered
e printed.
umbers of Witnesses had the evidential oaths administered. •
...the Commercial (Ireland) Credit Bill, and the Summary
40ustices of the Peace) Proceedings Bill, were respectively read
second time.—Adjourned.

MOUSE OF COMMONS.
11r. MISCELLANEOUS.
RAMSDEN presented a Petition from Huddersfield
4gaiIISI the Bill for allowing the importation of foreign woollen
go°43.—Ordered to be printed.
rticle
41L, Petition was presented from certain merchants and dealers
'c'reign wines, complaining of the Excise Duties upon those
s•—Laid on the table.
t JUL MABERLY moved for returns of all Clerks appointed
140 chi]. offices since the Ist of January 1816. Also for returns
all Clerks who had'retired upon allowances since that period.
Ordered.
Sir It WILSON called the attention of the House to the
'everity exercised by the Excise towards individuals who sold
rZPLarations from wheat in the form of powder. He held in
',and one of those 'Reparations which was called " Medi-
,ted To
= OWder,"
and he understood that this, as well as other
preparations, had brought prosecutions upon the per-
ann.,B who sold them. He thought these proceedings most cruel,
c ",of no service whatever to the revenue. He moved for
°Pi" of all Instructions given to the Solicitors of Excise for
prosecutions in such cases.
After a few words from Mr. H. DAVIS and Mr. Lusnrso-
°x, the returns were ordered.
vI!!* 'HUME moved for an account of all patents, granted.
vim n a given period, for printing machines used in the ser-
Nof GovernMent or any other establishment. Also for re-
ins of all Stationary supplied to the Irish Government
• `"" by Sir A. King, with copies of the invoices delivered
with the same.—Ordered.
G. BENNET gave notice, that he should shortly
nove that the evidence talon before the Opththalmic Corn-
inittee be printed.

LA REFORM.
r. PELIIAM presented a petition from the County of
;neeln, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The Hon. Mem-
r stated his opmien that the landed interest of the country
was net duly represented.
HERON had been present at the Meeting, and al-'
4t°.ugh some good and loyal persons might have been alariped
Its nuinbers, yet he could assure them that they exhibited
of the dreaded signs of sedition, and that they entered the
;13lle-yard in most constitutional confusion.—CA laugh.)—
, le inhabitants of the County of Lincoln were almost all en-
'aged in agricultural pursuits, industrious, and contented

Lord EBRINGTON presented a Petition from the Town of
Creditors, in Devonshire, complaining of Agricultural Distress,
and praying for a Reform in Parliament.—Ordered to ,be
printed.
The Marquis of TAVIk‘OCK presented a Petition to the
same effect from the County of Bedford. It was signed by 1400
persons, and they expressed their conviction that although they
sent their Petition to the House it would not be attended to.—
They had for a long time abstained from petitioning for this
reason ; but they thought it right to state their grievances once
more. They did not expect that the Minister would be at all
affected by the account of their distress, as it would in no de-
gree operate to lessen the power which he possessed, and
which placed him beyond the controul of that House. They
were of opinion that he was never likely to abandon that
power for the benefit of the people, and that Reform alone
could give to them their rights. The Noble Marquis would
assure Ministers that this was the language of the whole
country. They would say that the Foperty of the country,
and the, respectable portion of the inhabitants, were in their
favour ; and if' by that they meant the noblemen, gentry,
clergy, and 'others who had an interest in upholding offices and
taxation, he believed they had a majority in their favour. But
if they looked to a substantial, body, to the commoners of Eng-
land, to those who had yet something to lose, and who were
not supported by the taxes, they would find the general senti-
ment to be in unison with the prayer of the Petition. He
wished them to go to any county of England and meet this body,
and they would' find how much confidence was placed in them.
Those whom they had been accustomed to coerce would teach
them a lesson very differc-st from that which they seemed to
have learnt elsewhere.

Mr. M'QUEEN said, that after the energetic manner in
which the Petition of these 1,400 inhabitants of Bedford had
been supported, he trusted that he might be allow to say a few
words in behalf of the remaining 90,000. And he believed that
the sentiments of the great body of that number were in direct
contradiction to those of the Petitioners. With regard to the
Meeting at which this Petition was agreed to, he had received
letters informing him, that every means had been used to ex-
clude those who were opposed to its object, and that constables
were stationed at the door, who would not allow such persons
to pass. As a specimen of the impartiality of The proceedings,
he had been told that the only speech delivered on the other
side of the question was dismissed by the reporter in four lines.
He had reason to know, and to lament, that the distress of the
people of Bedfordshire was very great, but they did not wish
to mix up politics with their difficulties. The great majority
of the county of Bedford, as of all other places, undoubtedly
considered taxation to be grievous ; but they considered it to
be the price of their, redemption from foreign thraldom.—
(Cheers.)—He thought the main cause of distress to consist in
the system of the Poor Rates ; and until that system, were
looked manfully in the face, he expected no permanent or sub-
stantial relief.

Mr. F. PALMER was present at the Meeting in question,
and denied that constables prevented any one from entering the
door. The reason why the Petition was not more numerously
signed, was, that the meeting was called at two days* notice ;
and there was another circumstance which also prevented many
signatures from being added. The Under Sheriff, after the
Meeting, put the Petition in his pocket, a situation in which it
was impossible for any man to sign it—(a laugh)—and kept it
there for the whole of that evening. During this time free-
holders were running all over the town looking for the Petition,
and nobody could find it. With regard to the speech that was
omitted, he was sure that the Gentleman who reported the
proceedings suppressed the speech out of pure consideration for
the young man who made it. -
After a few words from Mr. MACQUEEN, in explanation,
the Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table, and be
printed.
Mr. COKE presented a Petition from a place in Norfolk,
complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for a Re-
form in Parliament.—Ordered to lie on the table, and be
printed.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. •

Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said, he had to call the atten-
tion of the House to the great question of Parliamentary Re-
form. .He should move a Resolution that the state of the Re-
presentation required the serious consideration of the House,-
and if he should he so fortunate as to carry that Resolution, he
would move for leave to bring in a Bill to effect some altera-
tions on that subject. Althtiugh he felt considerable anxiety on
the subject, it was not from any fear that the question itself
would, fail to engage the attention of the House. He was
aware that it was a question, which, if carried, involved in
the opinion of some the ruin, and in that of others (who
he beheyed were the majority), the salvation of the country.
He had therefore no doubt that the subject would engage
the interest of the House, but he feared the weakness of
the advocate might prove detrimental to the cause. The
(Nestion hat obtained the consideration of men of the greatest
talents ever produced in this country, and on that account
alone he should be discouraged from taking it up, had he
not in soma measure served an apprenticeship to the cause of

Reform. He had always however preferred supporting
the Reform of others, to the patting fbrward of his own.
Yet he was encouraged to bring- the subject forward this
Session in a general shape, in consequence of the advan-
tages of our national situation. ~ire were in the possession
of external peace and internal tranquillity, and the time
was therefore most favourable for the calm deliberation of
the question. Petitions had been presented to the House on.
, this important subject from various parts of the country, from
several counties and many large towns ; and as the Petitibn-
ers did not insist upon any exclusive plan of Reform, he
thought they were particularly entitled to attention. To iew
that the doctrine of universal suffrage, had lost many of its
supporters ; he had only to refer to the fact that at a late pub-
lic meeting, when the venerable -and respectable advocate for
'that species of Reform proposed a motion in its favour, no one
was found to second it. This, he thought, chewed a disposi-
tion on the part of the public to accept such a measure of Re-
form as the House, upon, deliberation, should be disposed to
grant. He now came to examine what it was that was really
asked by these petitionerS. Why, simply that the functions of
granting public money, of redressing public grievances, and of
giving Constitutional advice to the Crown, should be exercised
by those who were really the representatives of the people.
As these functions were always heretofore exercised by those
Representatives, it was clear , that the PArtioners asked for no
innovation, "and the question was therefore a mere question of
fact—were the Members of that House the Representatives of
the People. Pe- was here taking it for ranted, that the Mem-
bers ought to represent the people, and the people only : for
lie rejected a notion which had obtained some attention in that
House, that the Members should represent the Crown, and the
aristocracy, as well as the people. This he thought a most
dangerous theory e and it was at all events absurd to suppose
that the balance of King, Lords, and Commons, was to be pre-
served only in that House. If it were so, it was impossible to
say how soon the people might become a minority, and there
would then be an end of the balance. He begged to observe that
in the measure he was about to propose, he- should not suggest
any new constitution of that House. Not that he thought such a
suggestion would be absolutely wrong, but merely because he
thought the evils complained of might be removed without so
extensive a measure. In order to ascertain a correct answer
to thee-question of fact with which he had set out, namely;
whether that House did or did not represent the people, he
would examine the state and condition of the people on the
one hand, and that of the House of Commons on the other. The
former he would shew had Materially changed, while that of
the latterhad-remained stationary. The accordance therefore
between that House and the. people had been destroyed. If
he proved.this position by thestatement of acts done by that
House, which it was impossible ;could be done by those who
really represented the people, he thought it irresistibly fol-
lowed that it 'was the bounden duty of the ,House to set about
a reformation of the evil.- The condition of the people had
changed. most esSentially in the last forty years. The first
distinguishing sign of change was in the increase _of wealth.—
This had increased the importance of the middle orders, who
were the most respectable of all. They were equally removed
from the extremes of poverty and idleness, the former leading
to positive crimes known to the law ; the latter inducing to
every species of vice. The middle classes indeed formed the
safest pillar of the Constitution. Another remarkable change,
though it might be called an evidence of the increase of wealth,
was in the growth of our manufactures, which had risen from
an annual average in 1792, 'of thirteen millions, to one at pre-
sent of forty millions. The great increase in the home con-
sumption of British manufactures was particularly deserving
of- notice • that consumption% amounting annually to twenty-
three millions in the article of cotton, and seven in that
of wool. It was to be fairly inferred from this circum-
stance, that no inconsiderable part of our population
drew,their subsistence entirely from manufactures. But the
most prominent indication of change, and that calling for the
deepest attention, was that of the extraordinary increase of
intelligence ahnong the people. Intelligence had increased in
a degree far surpassing that of the increase of our wealth, and
literary talent had been so much encouraged that it was known
that one eminent Author had received no less than 80,0001. for
the profits of his works. He had ascertained, on inquiry, from
a first-rate bookseller, that his house disposed of five millions
of volumes annually, maintained 60 clerks, paid 50001. a year
for advertisements, and gave excellent employment to po
bookbinders. Circulating libraries in the metropolis had in-
creased in number since the year 1770, from 4 to 100, and in
the country there were upwards of 1000. There were 2000 book
clubs, in different /parts of the kingdom, which were the
means of diffitsing information in all directions upon all
subjects. The circulation of the two leading periodical Re-
views, the Edinburgh and Quarterly, (both written with
"considerable ability,) was as -great as that of all other periodi-
cal works combined, at a period of not more than thirty years
back. And to shew how science was finding its way into, and
was invited by, the humbler _classes, he had only to state the
fact that a friend -of his was able to obtain at a petty shop in
the town of- Inverness, a,ocientific -work which he could not
procure in the City of Oxford ! his friend being told at the lat-
ter place, that works of that nature were, never obtained by
booksellers unless they were previously ordered. The spread
of intelligence was materially increased by the Lancaster and
National schools, and by the publication in numbers of cheap
editions of the most considerable works of history and ge-
nius. He observed that Hume, Buffon, and several valuable
Encyclopaedias were in a course of publication in numbers at
6d. each. This facility to thhe dissemination of knowledge, it
was true, lead received a check by an Act passed in the year
1812.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, answered by the Mi-
nisterial Benches.)—Another great stimulus to .information was
'in the Bible mid Religious Tract Societies, which published four,
millions of publications annually. All these circumstances
tended to shew the material increase of knowledge among the
middle and lower classes. But this -knowledge had taken a
political turn, as might be collected from the increase of
'newspapers ; for a return relating to which he had some time.
since obtained an order of the House. That return, though at
present incomplete, enabled him to state that twenty-three
millions of newspapers were circulated annually in Eng-
land and WalesE—(The Noble Lord here went into a detail,
shewing in the amount that newspapers had doubled in
number and circulation within the last thirty years.]-11e
would now proceed to examine the question, whether Parlia-
ment had altered so as to represent this increase of knowledge
on the part-of the people. That an examination of this nature
was absolutely necessary, could, he thought,_ scarcely be
doubted. No Government, he ventured to assert, could be
stable, which was not founded upon at least an equality with
the state of the people. This he believed to be an evident
truth, though a different theory had found its way into the
walls of that House. It had been argued by a Right Hon.
limber of that House, who was remarkable for the general
liberality of his opinions, that the increase of knowledge among
the people was a reason for keeping up offices which would
otherwise be unnecessary. This was to say in effect, that cor-
ruption should increase with public honesty, and that the more,
the people became enlightened, the less ought the system
of, Government. to be able to bear examination. When it
had lately been
.proposed to' abolish a certain office, this
had been the only real objection offered to the abolition.
If such a proposition were to be avowedly adopted by that
House, the Government, he would venture to say, must be-
come universally odious, and the people would become indiffe-
rent to- Monarchy. He would now proceed to look at the state
of the Parliament. Blackstone admitted the defective state
of the Representation at the dine he wrote, but observed that he
thought there was no one free agent in the country who had not
in sonic respect an influence over a vote. This was at vari-
ance with the fact even at that time • but at present there were
at least a million of persons, free and independent, who pos-
sessed not one vote among them. It had been confidently
stated, and he believed was not denied, that a majority of that
House was returned- by eight thousand persons ; but if they
went more into detail, they would find that in propor-
tion to the increase of knowledge had the bases of the
House become narrowed. This was not the case with the
whole, but it was sufficient to insure a majority able to
influence the decisions of the House. And first with respect
to County Members. They were elected undoubtedly by. a
great number of persons ; but in England and Wales there
were but 92 of these Members. The manner of carrying on
elections and the great expense of them when contested, ren,
dered a contest very rare. A compromise was therefore in ge-
neral agreed upon ; one Member was returned by the influence
of each party, so that although the right of voting remained,
the object of it became nullified. The county was, in sub-
stance, unrepresented. Another change had taken place in
consequence of the increase in the number of - Peers selected
from the Country Gentlemen. This had been a part of the im-
provident policy of Mr. Pitt; and at the present day, it was
too evident that the Members of the House did not represent
the landed wealth of the country, and were often compelled to

guide their votes by the directions or at least the influence of
others. Indeed he really thought that if that House were abo-
lished, the other House would soon become very popular ; and
he could not but observe, that on the Trial of the late Queen,
the other House had shewn an attention to the feelings of the
people which had never been observed in the proceedings of
the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)—He now came to
view of the state of the representation in the great towns.—
Some of them, unquestionably, were independent, but in a
greater- number the elections were artfully managed, and the
elective franchise itself had become much confined, partly by
decisions of that House, and partly by gradual usurpation, so.
that popular election had become very much narrowed. He
-would instance the town of Plymouth, which at the time of
the Restoration contained 3000 inhabitants and 700 voters, and
although the population had increased to 80,000, the voters had
become reduced to 200. Bath and Cambridge were other ex-
amples of this species of attack on the right of election. He now
came, to the great abuse of all. The smaller boroughs of Eng-
land he would take at 140, returning 280 Members. These
very often formed a majority of the House; and it was not to
! ^ forgotten that 100 of these boroughs contained less than
3tMO inhabitants in each. In these boroughs corruption and
bribery prevailed natoriously and openly. He might go into
minute detail ; but as the practice was acknowledged, he did
not think it necessary to trouble the House with particulars.—
It was observed last year, by a Cornish Member, that- of,the
42 Members returned y Cornwall, only five of them were
-Natives of the county ; and on a late occasion, in another
place, it had been said by the Prime Minister that Cornwall
represented the , general commercial interests of the country.
And this was a system defended in a great measure on account
of its elasticity ; its power of adaptation to circumstances.
He begged thee House to look at the consequence of such a
system. It was a violation of the laws of Parliament, and
therefore commenced in perjury, and it was continued by
drunkenness and every sort of immorality ; and after all it was
any thing but Representation. When the money was paid the
voters cared not a farthing whether the person they elected,
was Whig or Tory, or whether he supported the Brunswicks
or the Stuarts, or the Nabob of Arcot. It included therefore
that most intolerable of all grievances, power without respon-
sibility. It very often happened that a Member for one of
these Boroughs represented some great commerical house ; and
one of them had told him (Lord John) that he had no desire to
,obtain a Seat in the House of Commons fbr himself, but that
his partners desired it. But many advantages were derived by
the proprietors of those seats, especially during a war, in the
course of one of which, a Humber had cleared 15,0001. by a
single tradirg licence granted to him for his support of the
measures of Government. "As to the very small Boroughs,
they were very often disposed of to the Government, for few
persons were disposed to purchase the privilege of being in a
minority. Some of these were actually oVer-run by patron-
age ; and he would only mention, by way of example, the
place which had the honour to send the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to that House. He had a list of several persons,
voters for that place, or connected with it, who held situations
in the Post-office, the Custom-house, and other public esta-
blishments ; and this was the real state of the representation
compared with that of the people. It had been said by the
late Mr. Windham that no substantial evil resulted from all
this, and that Right Hon. Gentleman had compared the com-
plaining people to the man mentioned in the Spectator, who
said he had every symptom of the gout except the pain.—(A
laugh.)—Now, whatever might be the situation of die country
when that observation was made, it was too true that at this
moment we had the last symptom' to complete the disease ;
for we had the pain. The distress occasioned by measures,
which would never have been adopted under a true Repre-
sentation of the people, he was aware could not now be
effectually relieved by a mere alteration ; but that alteration
might serve us for the future. against similar measures. After
some observations on Mr. Pitt's conduct in Parliament re-
specting the question of Reform, the Noble Lord proceeded
shortly to notice the Anti-Jacobin war, the peace of Amiens,
and the following war. This .brought him to touch upon the
Walcheren expedition, so far as in its consequences it bore
upon the present question. An expedition more marked for
ignorance In its plan, and incapacity in its execution, had
never disgraced the councils of this country. It had been fol-
lowed by disgrace and calamity of the worst description ; yet
had the then House of Commons pronounced a formal eulogium
on 'Ministers for having planned that expedition. So strong a
fact as this, at a time when the people were calling for the pu-
nishment of all who were concerned in the planning of that
very expedition, could not but make a strong impression on
the public mind as to the state of what was called the repre-
sentation of the people. The House, however, thanked the
Ministers ; the chief planner of the expedition was at that mo-
ment the first Minister in that House, and the General who
commanded the expedition had been rewarded with one of the
mast lucrative foreign corrunands in the gift of the Crown.
The Spanish war followed shortly after this expedition, and as
that was a popular war, Ministers were enabled to divert the
attention of the people from the present important subject ; and
they continued to sanction every abuse, and to avail themselves
of every possible means of increasing their influence.- The
war having ceased, it became a question with the country
whether they would have an expensive military or a cheap
civil Government. Had the Commons represented the people
the latter no doubt would have been chosen, but they voted
the keeping of an army of 99,000 Men with corresponding
establishments ; yet he found on examination that these votes
were not carried by a majority of County Members, among
whom there was a majority against Ministers in the proportion
of three to two. A Noble Friend of his, the Member for York-
shire (Lord Milton), had made a series of calculations respect-
ing several votes of the Houses within the last five years. He
(Lord J.) had also made some calculations on the same subject,
and in his own calculation he had called Opposition Members
ail those who had given three votes in favour of-popular mea-
sures, and this he thought would be considered a very fair cal-
culation. His Noble Friend had taken the two principal votes,
one upon the motion for reducing establishments, and the other
respecting the proceedings against the late Queen. It was found,
that out of the Members for 33 boroughs, containing less than
1000 inhabitants each, 12 voted against Ministers, and 44 in
their favour ; out of 35 boroughs, containing less than 2000 in-
habitants each, 15 against Ministers and 45 for them ; out of
76 towns; containing less than 5000 inhabitants, 48 against Mi-
nisters and 93 for them ; out of 25 towns, containing from 5 to
10,000 inhabitants, 22 against Ministers and 27 for them ; and
then it was remarkable that, out of 31 places, containing up-
wards of 10,000 inhabitants each, 38 voted, against Ministers
and only 21 for, them. The calculation which he (Lord John
Russell) had made led to the following results :—Out of
the representatives for places containing less than 500 inha-
bitants, one only voted for reduction and nineteen against
it. From places containing more than 500 and less than 1000
inhabitants each, twelve for reduction and thirty,.three against
it. From places containing upwards of 1000 and less than
2000 inhabitants, seventeen for reduction and forty-four against
it. From places containing upwards of 2000 and less than 3000
inhabitants, 19 for reduction and 48 against it. From places
containing between 3000 and 5000 inhabitants, 25 for reduc-
tion and 45 against it ; and then (and here he begged the at-
tention of the House) when they came to places containing-
more than 5000 inhabitants it was found that sixty-six voted
for redUction ' and forty-seven against it. The general re-
sult was, that at the lowest point of the population Minis-
ters had a majority of 19 to one, and that as the population
rose, their majority,sunk to three to one, and at last they were
at the higher points of population, in a minority of three against
five. These facts, he submitted, were a complete answer to
volumes of argument in favour of virtual representation. But
the most convincing proof on the subject was to be collected
from the votes of this year.. He would take two questions of
reduction ; one was that of the Salt Tax, and the other was that
relating to the office of Postmaster-General. On the former
of these, the numbers were 169. and 165, leaving a majority of
four 'for 'Ministers. In the minority, there were forty-two
1 County Members, and fiftyrfive Representatives for gieat
towns; there being only fifty-six of this descrption. In the
majority there were only 14 county members, but there were
61 placemen, only ten.. of whom could be said 'to represent a
county or any great town. On the question of reducing one
of the Post Masters-General, the numbers were 159 for, and 184
against the motion, leaving a majority of 25 for Ministers.' In
the minority there were 29 county members, and 40 represen-
tatives for large towns. In the majority there were only 11
county members, and only 23 representatives for' arge towns.
The proportion of the majority against Ministeri,'on the point
of population, was 69 to 34. Surely if any thing could make an
impression upon the House, it was the statement of these facts.
The representatives of the people were merged in a minority
in that House. The doctrine broached on a late memorable
night, . that uselesi offices should be.kept up as a counterpoise
against the increased intelligence of the people, should not be
forgotten'..—(Hear.)--This was a doctrine which,, to the Hon.

Member for Knaresborough (Sir J. Mackintosh), whose his-
torical and constitutional knowledge was so great, was new
and at which the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes)
was alarmed. It was sanctioned by those who were not- the
representatives of the people, and the question it was meant
to support was carried, whilst the real representatives of the
people were not in the majority. In this state of things he
begged the House to look at the confusion which must arise from
the different uses to which power was applied-from what it was
granted for. Let them look at the single effect of those grant-
mg money who were afterwards to have the benefit of it, and the
powers of countroul and inquiry sunk in the employment of
other powers against the sanction of the people. Every man
who loved his country must be alarmed at the danger whiCh
threatened the Constitution while matters went. on thus.—
Having shewn the practical results of a corrupt system of -re-
presentation„he would mention another result, which was more
grievous to the friends of liberty. The natural balance of the
Constitution was, that the Crown should appoint its own Mi-
nistry—that these Ministers should have the confidence of the
louse of Commons, and that the House of Commons should
represent the sense of the people. This was the just construe-
Lion of the machinery of Government, and if any part of it were
deranged, the whole must be affected. Thus, when the Stuarts
Were on the Throne, the Ministry did not possess the con-
fidence of the House of Commons, and the consequence was,
popnlar tumult and civil war. But now the Ministers
did enjoy the confidence of the House, but the House had not
-the respect or reverence of the people.—(Hear !)—They bad
seen tumults and insurrections, and every symptom of disorder
arising from an excess of popular license, and justly creating
the greatest alarm. They had seen the remedies.attempted to
be administered, in the shape of measures of severe coercion
and restrictive laws, backed by an enormous standing army ;
and they had witnessed the failure of these remedies to re-
move the evil. In his opinion the liberty of England was the
only basis on which that House could rest. It was im-
possible to make the House of Commons, which was in-
tended to represent popular sentiment, a severe curb upon
popular affection. _They could not hope that freedom would
submit to be shackled, or would continue to support them,
.if not permitted to go at large, according to the policy of -our
I ancestors. England abjured the aid of a standing army to
foster her liberties. This was the melancholy case which.re-
suited from an attempt to govern the country by other
means than those pursued by our ancestors. Acting upon
'ifferent principles, they had seen the Ministers obliged
to have recourse to other measures in order to maintain
their equilibrium. This was an inconvenience which Govern-
ment itself ought to wish to get rid of ; for if Parliament re-
presented the sentiments of the people, they would have no-
thing to do but to submit their measures to that body, and take
the sense of their, approbation upon them. Instead of that
simple course, however, as things now stood, they were obliged
to go through a much narrower and more difficult road to ar-
rive at the same point. During the whole Session they were
forced to occupy themselves in minutely studying the senti-
ments of the borough interest ; and when the Session was
over, they found all their work undone, because there was-ouch
a thing as a public opinion, and a free press, which condemned
the Ministers, and the House which had sanctioned their mea-
sures. Thus had they recently been seen forced to reduce the
numbers of their standing army nearly one-third of the whole
amount. He confessed he had never seen any thing in;the
present Miniiters which could lead him to impute to them-any.
dark designs against the Constitution of the country. He be-
lieved their policy was to do as little good, and as little.evil, as,
might be necessary just to ensure their retention of place; and
he believed it was much the same to them, whether their.mea-
sures were adopted as they first proposed them, or whether they
afterwards were obliged to alter them in obedience -to the opi-
nion of others. It would therefore be more convenient to them-
selves to find the House of Commons an echo of the public
sentiment, so that by coming into that House they could at
once feel the pulse of the people.—(Hear.)—Of the incon-
venience of the course they were obliged to adopt, however,
would borrow an example from the present Session.— •
li would be remembered that at the commencement of this
' Session the agricultural classes felt they had cause to complain
of the embarrassed situation of their interests, .and were of
opinion that some of the measures taken by his Majesty's
Ministers were not altogether wise. What was the course
pursued by them under this dispensation ? Did they-endeavour
to fortify themselves with public opinion? Far from it. They
applied for aid to a Party, known in this country by the
name of the Grenville Party. The weight of the character.
and talents of Lord Grenville, as their leader, remarkable
for a rare union of learning and eloquence, gave an -in-
fluence to the Party which they otherwise would not have
- possessed. But many years. ago, this Nobleman announced
his intention of retiring from public, life, and without him
the character and influence of the Grenville Party might
be set down as nothing.—(Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh iss.
They might possess some credit whilst united with him, but
deprived of him the people held them in particular abhorrence.
—(Hear, and a laugh.)—Whether Tories, Whigs, or Radicals,
all were ready to club together their share of vituperation
against the Grenvilles. Therefore, in point of character, \they
formed no accessitlnto the Ministers. But it was sisrprising
to those who thus viewed the matter, to . see all on a sud-
den, a surprising commotion amongst this sect.. It seemed
as though an order had been issued for a levy en nzassc of
the whole of them and their adherents, for the. services of
the public. One was sent to Switzerland, with a salary
sufficiently large to corrupt the whole Senate. Another, like
a second Bacchus, became the Conqueror of the Indies.—
(A laugh.)—They became, in short, the persons on whom all
the favours of the Crown were to be bestowed. But was there
any disposition on the part of the people at large to contribute in
any way to this addition to Ministerial force ? None ; but there
was the accession of strength in that House of a certain number
of Boroughs. In another way also it-was advantageous. There
was a certain rule which had been obtained by our ancestors; as
. all their other advantages on the side of liberty were obtained—
by strong contest with power, viz. that upon taking office
the Members of that House should go back to their consti-
tuents to ask their approbation. This was avoided in the case
of the Grenvilles. They had no constituents to present them.
selves before, and it might have been ratherawkward if they
had. They might, for instance, have been asked if they had
altered their opinion on the salt tax ; and, with regard to Ire-
land, whether among the numerous and remarkable variety of
bargains they had made, they had made any stipulation in
favour of five millions of their,fellow-creatures, who were kept
aloof from an equal participation in the common interests of
the community. But the greater part of these Gentlemen had
no constitution but one, betwixt whom and themselves no
doubt there existed what Mr. Pitt thought there should always
be between the constituent and representative—the closest-in-
terest and the strongest sympathy.—(A laugh.)—But they had
no opportunity of wining . information on this point. The
Members for Buckingham appeared in that House, but he
could only consider them as persons disguised as representa-
tives of the people, not being bona fide such. Such were the
ways Ministers were obliged to resort -to, and he considered it
as an argument in favour of reform. But there was one point
in favour of, his argument to be derived from authority, on
which he had not touched. The great Lord Clarendon -had
declared that a reform in the representation was worthy of
being adopted in better times • Mr. Locke had given the same
opinion with reference to Old Sarum, and other, places, and
the sentiments of Blackstone; Chatham, Pitt, anti Fox-, in
favour of reform, he need not repeat. Thus they "had. a
singular combination in favour of reform. There was Lord.
Clarendon, the revered Tory Statesman ; Mr. Locke, the
most liberal of Whig philosophers ; Blackstone, the, most•
universally admired constitutional lawyer;
_Lord Chatha-rn,
the boldest practical Minister; Mr. Pitt, the head. of. a
most enthusiastic party . in his favour ; and Mr. Fox,
an equal object of affection and esteem to another.—,
(Hear, hear, hear !)—This union of talent conveyed to his
Mind that confidence, which experience only could give with.
out it.. In England such an union of her first and best-should
be looked to as a precedent. In his mind it took away all the
raggedness of innovation from the measures which they sewn-
mended. On the other side, they had only Burke and Wind-
ham. He did not wish to disparage them, but he did not feel .
disposed to give equal weight to their opinions, as to those
he had citede- Having, therefore, thus described what he
considered as the improved state of the country in point
of wealth and "learning, and stated the mischief arising
from the difference between the state of the, nountry and that
House, irremained for him to explain the plan which might.
convey some remedy. The :plans of Lord Chatham and M r. •
Pitt had been to add 100 Members to the numbers of the
House, and Mr. Burke had fallen into 'the same-plan, giving
the votes to a certain number of householders; and Mr. Fox
said it was the best outline of a plan that could be framed. He ,
(Lord J. Russell) coincided in this respect with the authority'
of these great persons. He did not wish, however, to give th-e

eyehole hundred members to the counties, but proposed that the I
=unties should-have an addition of sixty, and to give forty to
*he commercial towns of note. There were many minor points
for consideration, which it was not necessary then to go into.
The change must be effected with all calmness and delibera-
tion. ` But there was a difference of situation since the time of
Lord Chatham ; for since that time a hundred Members had
been added to the House. In order, therefore, to carry his
plan into effect, he proposed to take away 100 from the
=ldlest borrglas to make room for the further addition of 100
,for the countie* and great towns. He had thought it would be
possible to accomplish the desirable object of reform by convict-
ing the 'Boroughs of corruption, which was notorious, and giv-
ing the elective franchise to mole populous places. Had he
met with the co-operation of the House. in pursuance of the
system he had last Session introduced, his object would in time
hare been effected. But he had not been adequately seconded
by the House in hta efforts, and he was sorry to say the House
,41 id not appear to be sincere in a desire to put down corruption.
•(fhey acted as though a police Magistrate should say—" If
you bring a thief before me, I will commit him ; but mind, I
'will not send out a single officer to assist in apprehending them,
although it is notorious that every night thieves parade
the streets."—(A laugh.)--Thus it was that the House was
ready to take cognizance of a case of corruption brought
before them ; but it required, to do justice to the cause, that
they should themselves discover and convict them. He there-
fore thought that this plan was the safest and best that Parlia-
ment could adopt. The question then before- the House was,
whether a Reform in Parliament was necessary at all ? If they
would grant him that, he' had no doubt but he should be able to
agree with the other Reformers in the plan to be adopted. His
objection to the small boroughs was, not that they broughtmen
of talent into the House, but that they formed the majority in
the House, and thus, in fact, were the means of obtaining
the sanction of the Legislature to the acts of individuals, which
passed as the measures of Government. He knew it was said
that these measures, however they might excite tumult and agi-
tation in the country at first, when once they had passed, ceased
to call forth opposition. But this was an unfair way of putting
it. The people of this country were remarkable for their adhe-
zence to all law, above all other people.—(Hear, hear !)—and
they knew that when the sanction of that House had once been
given to a measure, the act of Government was complete, and
that there was nothing left to do but to rebel, or be silent.
But did it, therefore, follow that they approved ? Did they
applaud the omission of the Queen's name from the Liturgy
more after the question of restoring. it was negatived, than
they did before ? Whilst it was in course of deliberation
-they exerted themselves, and expressed their sentiments ; but
when once decided upon, they abstained from further inter-
ference. He thought they wisely acted thus ; for he did not
think there were any abuses in this country which called for
actual rebellion. Of the falseness and dangers of assuming
approval in the absence of successful opposition, history fur-
nished many examples., James the Second succeeded in
obtaining every prostration of liberty till he met with resist-
ance, and was forced to abdicate under the pressure of that
resistance. The same was the case with Paul, the most despotic
of tyrants, till he met with the bowstring. Ferdinand. the
Seventh of Spain went on in the same strain till he was
overwhelmed in rebellion. All these tyrants thought exactly
,as those who defended the present Constitution of that House.—
He had also to answer the use made in the question of Reform,
of' the Revolution of France, and the civil wars of England.—
In reference to those, they were continually reminded of the
popular licentiousness and the atrocities committed. Did
these who used these against Reform mean to say that the
Government of Charles the First, where it was attempted to
establish rule by Divine Right, and to impose taxes without
the sanction of Parliament, any opposition could be wrong ?
.or, in the case of the French people towards Louis the Fif-
teenth, who wasted in low debauchery the resources of the
people ? But these Gentlemen said, the leaders in these events
6aght to have stopped short in their career, which was as much
as to say that they should be more patriotic than Hampden.—
The cause of popular excesses in these instances was owing to
the aristocracy not being united. It was then necessary for
that part of it which was attached to liberty to appeal to the
ps•ople, to assist them in their efforts to accomplish Reform.—
"). ow, history informed them that Reforne brought about by the
people was calamitous in its course. The obvious remedy
was, that the aristocracy should be united in their efforts to
accomplish necessary Reforms. He instanced the Reform
wrought in the time of James 11, as free from the usual conco-
mitants of popular revolutions. He called therefore on the aris-
tocracy of Parliament to unite in favour of Reform. He called
upon the Whigs to do the same. If he understood the principle
-.and spirit of Whiggism, it was to obtain for the people as much
liberty as they were able to hold within their grasp at the time.
It was that spirit which had procured them the Hanover dynas-
ty, and saved the country from the return of the Stuarts. Al-
though at that time they had acted wisely in retaining the bo-
roughs in the representative system, and furthered the cause
_ef liberty, yet, by giving them up at present to the increased
intelligence of the people, they went to promote the cause 'of
Reform ; for the people were now able to guard, and hold any
amount of liberty that could be given to them. The Learned
Sir William Temple had said, that England would never be
ruined but by herself—that whilst the weight and number of
the people all tended one way, she would still stand pre-
. eminent. He asked of all • the aristocracy, therefore, to
join in this struggle for Reform. Posterity would require
,of as the liberty we had received from our ancestors. 13y a
timely union of force, would be saved that convulsion of the
moral world, which the discordance in the elements of society
would otherwise ferment. Let him fervently hope, that a
constitution of only one hundred years standing was destined
yet to rank in antiquity with any that had gone before it.—
, (Hear, hear, hear !)--The Noble Lord concluded by moving a
Resolution,--" That it is the opinion of this House, that tne
Representation of the People in Parliament calls for the most
earnest consideration of this House."
Mr. H. TWISS said, that in obtruding himself upon the at-
tention of the House to make a few olvervations on what had
-,fallen from the Noble Lord who had just sat down, the House
would not expect him to go through a tithe of the various
framer adverted to, and the enormous theories by which it had
been attempted to support this question. In the objections
urged by the Noble Lord against the influence of the Crown in
that House, it appeared to him that such influence could only
be objectionable when the functions of Government were com-
pletely exercised out of doors; but when the whole Executive
was, as it were, -carried on in that House, the objection he
thought did not stand upon such good ground. The same
might be said of the interference of the Lords in that House.
13-,:t, in advocating innovations upon the existing system of
things, the advocates were not entitled to any benefit from the
ahtiquity of any practice. They who opposed them had a right
to follow such a course of argument, but surely not they who
veered as the foundation of their argument the silent changes
d time. But upon those silent changes he was willing to rest
the issue of the question between them. And in reply to the
angenentatioa of power in the House of Peers, he would urge
the popular party, which in the lapse of time had insensibly
,spewn up in that House, unknown to our ancestors. If bribery
and corruption were found to exist in some of the details, it
wee not fair to charge the system with it. If the outrages of
the Westminster mob had been attended with loss of life in the
case of Sir M. Maxwell, or-if the attempt at drowning a candi-
eiate oh a late occasion had succeeued, it would have been
' deemed murder by the law; but would it have been fair to
charge these as evils upon the popular system ?—(Hear, hear!)
....,The Noble Lord, in his inducements for reform, included the
expense of boroughs. But allowing the expense of a borough
election to amount to 40001., he asked if for treble that sum any
ere would guarantee the cost of a contested election for Man-
chester or Leeds ? The expence then being equal, or greater, in-
the popular mode, he asked any one who had witnessed the
scene of a =tested election, the state of the public-houses, and
the-state of the electors, stimulated to outrage and disorder by
every idle watch.word, which was the preferable system ? The
.expression of public opinion Was much about the same in both
cases. There was lone very difficult point of difference be-
tween the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) and himself as to the
meaning of the word " Representative.' He (Mr. Twiss) un-
derstood by it a guardian of the interests of the people in Par-
Ea:tent to the best of his abilities. Let the Noble Lord look
at the silent operation of public opinion in bringing about the
abolition of the slave trade, the emancipation of religious sects,
and the mitigation of punishment, before he declared that the
people were not ably and amply represented in Parliament.
Bet although it ought duly to represent public opinion, that
House ought to oppose a steady constitutional barrier against
the everrunning stream of popular innovation. The innovation
contended for by the Noble Lord was by some unaccountable
at eans styled moderate Reform. This moderate Reform was
to disfranchise a hundred boroughs at once.—(Hear !)—This
was the amputation of an entiro lirub.—(Hear !)—lt would
he well for the House, in disposing of this question, to consider
what would come next, if they satisfied the cravings of the Re-
formers in this respect. They would next be told they had not
gone far enough ; and they would be driven on from one point
to another till they arrived at complete Radical Reform.—
( Hear !)---These attempts of the Radicals might be compared to
tae operation of successive wedges, each succeeding one of
larger dimensions thee' the last, and formed so as to fit the en-
larged gap, till the solid fabric of the Constitution was rent
asunder, and riven to the very heart.—(fleara )—These continued
approaches towards grasping tht sovereign power, betrayed
symptoms of a perpetual dictatorship on the part of the people
towards the Legislature. Those whoiformerly only claimed to
be .governed equitably now demanded .to direct the Govern-
ment theniselvea--( Hear !)—The House -would consider how
far, if they assented to the first of a series of pr. meditated
`, changes in the Constitution, they might not be instrumental in
a total subversion of the monarchy. Whether a monarchy, tem-
pered, as this was, by the people, was not preferable to a demo-

cracy, was happily, through Providence, unknos4n to us. It
was an unsolved problem, and lie hoped would remain so. If
a second time the monarchy was to fall before the democracy,
the House of Commons would not a second time assist in achiev-
ing the downfall—it would not be made the means of burying
itself.—(Hear, hear !)
Lord FOLKESTONE bespoke the indulgent attention of the
_
House, whilst he delivered his sentiments on this important sub-
ject for the first time in that House. After the most mature
consideration of the subject, he had fully satisfied himself that
Reform was necessary to the salvation of the country, and he
would therefore give it his full support. It appeared to him,
that the arguthent adduced in opposition to the motion of
his Noble Friend, that evening, ought to induce the House
to support it. He bad conquered all his early prejudices,
and was now in favour of Reform. He thought the Acts
of this House tended to bring them into disrepute. Nothing
could be more likely to produce such an effect than a vote
similar to that which had been come to only a few weeks
back to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, with-
out any grounds for so doing but the speech of the Minis-
ter, and the representations made of the character of the
individual to whom such extraordinary powers were to be
entrusted. It had turned out that there was so little occasion
for the measure to which he had alluded, that it had not once
been brought into play, and not a single person had been ar-
rested under it. The conduct pursued in that instance by the
House of Commons, as well as in a variety of others, proved
that Reform was necessary. He thought no Gentleman on the
other side would say that House was, in theory or in practice,
what it ought to be. Those who were for its continuing in its
present state acted on the fear that was entertained of some
ulterior consequence. Convulsion and revolution were dreaded
from a change, but it was to avert these calamities that he
wished for a change to take place, and this was one of his
main reasons for wishing for a Reform in Parliament. Propo-
sitions for Reform had on various occasions been met by argu-
ments directly opposed to each other; sometimes they were
resisted on the ground of the paucity of petitions which ap-
peared in its favour ; sometimes on account of the multiplicity
presented. One great opposer of Reform in his day, Mr. John
Pitt, afterwards Lord Camelford, one of the most honest op-
posers of Reform, had contended against the plans formerly
brought forward, on the ground that it was necessary to the
Crown that the influence of the aristocracy of the country
should be powerfully felt in that House. The fashionable ar-
gument against Reform now had been furnished by the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Liverpool. What he
had told his constituents on this subject had been published
in a pamphlet, which had been sent forth by his friends, as
containing all that it was necessary should be said on the ques-
tion of Reform. He (Lord Folkestone), however, from read-
ing that pamphlet, had he not known what was really the ob-
ject of the Right Hon. Gentleman, should have thought him
the friend of Reform., and he was prepared to shew that every
argument it contained; if pushed to its legitimate extent, might
be turned in its favour. The Right Hon. Gentleman told his
constituents, that in times of danger it was desirable that the
Representative should be frequently in communication with his
constituents, and ready to give them an account of his conduct.
This was very good doctrine, but it was strangely misapplied,
for 'the Right Hon. Gentleman had told the people of Liver-
pool this not before, but after, his election. He had, however,
proceeded to give his constituents an account of his conduct,
not only as Member for Liverpool, but as a servant of the
Crown. This was that which he (Lord Folkestone) did not
understand, for the Right Honourable Gentleman had no
more right to account to the people of Liverpool for his con-
duct in the latter capacity, than he had to the people of
Manchester, or 'of any other place. The Right Honourable
Gentleman supported his argument against a Reform in
Parliament, by referring to the exceeding great happiness
which the people of this country had enjoyed under the
present system. It was not' certain that the happiness for-
merly possessed grew out of the constitution of the House of
Commons, but if that had ever been the casee where was the
happiness formerly boasted of gone now ? It had vanished,
and the utmost depression and misery had succeeded, which,
according to the language held by Ministers at the com-
mencement of the Session, had led to open rebellion. The
words used by a Noble Marquis, not then in his place, were,
that " Rebellion stalked over the land," and on this the
Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended in Ireland, though
since that which was called rebellion, had been desCribed by
an official Gentleman as little more than a contemptible con-
spiracy. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman assumed all the
happiness which the country had enjoyed to spring from the
constitution of the House of Commons, he thought be might
with better reason assume, that all the misery which had been
endured, might be traced to the House of Commons also. The
Right l lon., Gentleman, when addressing his constituents on
the advantages of the present system, had illustrated his argu-
ment by referring to those melancholy and horrible measures
as he (Lord F.) considered them to be, the Six Acts as they
were commonly called which had been passed just before the
election of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He had spoken
of the dangers which had prevailed, and of the restoration to
tranquillity and happiness which Parliament had effected by
passing these Acts. The Right Honourable Gentleman was
unfortunate in this instance, for two months had not passed
before they heard of drillings and of acts of insubordina-
tion in the North, as before the passing of the Six, Acts.
A correspondence between a Military Commander in the
North and Government had been laid on the table of the
House, and it appeared that barracks had been erected
in two places where barracks were not thought neces-
sary before, at Carlisle and Glasgow, and such was the im-
portance of occasion, in the eyes of those who decided for
this measure, that 2501. per acre had been paid in one place,
and 2801. at the other. The Right Honourable Gentleman,
approving the present constitution of the House of Commons,
had said of it, " that from the beginning it had been growing
and increasing, till now, like Aaron's rod, it had nearly absorb-
ed all the other branches of the Government." Now, if such
were the fact, could the Right Honourable Gentleman de-
sire, he being an enemy to innovations, that that system should
stand which was so different from that originally framed, or,
approving of the advance which it had made, could he con-
sent that it should stop _ short now of that final perfection
which it might yet obtain ? He thought the Right,Honourable
Gentleman ought to wish for a reform to bring the Constitution
back to what it was, or to make it that which it was likely
to be atea future time. On a late occasion he thought the
Royal Prerogative had been invaded. The House would
recollect when the Bill of Pains and Penalties was withdrawn,
it was thought-very desirable that the Commons should separate
without being called to the Upper House. It was found that
it would be very difficult to frame an Address on that occasion,
and in his opinion it was very indecent to dismiss the House
without one at the close of a Session in which they had made
one of the most liberal arrangements—had, he believed, granted
the most liberal stipend that had ever been settled on the
Crown. He had heard (he did not know that such were the
fact) that a Council had been held to consider whether or
not the Parliament could not be dissolved by proclamation.
The decision was against taking that coarse, and so the Par-
liament had been adjourned instead of being prorogued. Now
though he was a Reformer, he saw in this proceeding an
invasion of the Prerogative which he would never have sanc-
tioned. The Right Hon. Gentleman had remarked, "no reformer
could say the House of Commons had not sufficient power at
the present day." He begged to say upon this that the Re-
formers had never denied that that House had sufficient power.
What they complained of was that the people had not suffi-
cient power. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that as the
House had now more power than formerly, greater caution
ouht to be exercised in choosing Representatives than here-
tofore. He agreed with him in this, but then the Right Hon.
Gentleman came to the extraordinary conclusion, that the
people ought to be satisfied with the present House of Com-
mons, as its composition was not materially different from
what it had formerly been. He had heard the question mooted,
whether a man going to a farm-yard every day, and lifting a
calf, would be able in the end to carry the full-grown ox. One
had contended that the day would arrive when the man would
no longer be able to move the animal from the ground ; another
had maintained-that the man would grow stronger, as the calf
increased in size, and be able to carry it when it became an ox.
—The Right Hon. Gent. arguing that the House of Commons
had absorbed the other two branches of the Legislature, yet was
not materially different from what it had formerly been; in
fact, maintained that the man did not increase in strength, but
was nevertheless able to carry the ox. On the Right Hon.
Gentleman's own chewing, since he made it appear that the
power of that House from,being nothing had become every
thing, he ought to be a most decided Reformer. But to him
(Lord Folkestone) it appeared that the constitution of the
louse materially differed from what it was informer times. The
Right Hon. (lent. said property had always the same influence
in that House which it had now. But he (Lord Folkestone)
was old enough to remember when a man would have been called
to order for speaking of .the interference of Peers with elec-
tions, and for mentioning other circumstances connected with
the actual constitution of that House which were commonly
talked of now. He proceeded to comment on the manner in
which Members for boroughs were returned, and came to the
conclusion that boroughs were at present infinitely more close
than they were some years ago. The increase of the Peerage
was to be taken into consideration.. In the time of George
the First there were 178 Peers. At present there were 310
temporal Peers. The total number, including the Irish Peers
and Bishops, amounted nearly (he would not speak to the
precise number) to 382. Was it no change in the Constitution,
that the Lords, to whom in many cases of importance, the last
appeal was to be made, had become, instead of remaining what
they formerly were, a popular assembly of nearly 401) members.
He would shew the ratio in which they had been increased at
different periods within the last century. In 1719 the number

of Peers was 178. In 1780 the number had increased to 183,
being an increase of sin 61 years. From 1780 to 1821, being
a period of 41 years, the Peerage had been increased by 127
new Temporal Peers, making a total of 310, exclusive of the
Bishops and Irish Peers. He thence argued that some change
became necessary in the House of. Commons. If the Right
Hon. Gentleman, considering it to have absorbed the other two
branches of the Legislature, wished it to continue the same,
his ideas were republican. Ile (Lord Folkestone) wished to
renovate the Constitution, and to hand it down to future ages.
such as it had been in the time of our ancestors. He, however,
maintained that the House of Lords and the Crown were not,
as the Right Hon. Gentleman had asserted, absorbed by the
Commons. He shewed that the principles of the radical Re-
formers, in a different shape, were those which had been acted
upon at former periods to effect those changes which had
brought the Constitution to what it was. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had referred to a resolution passed in 1648, declaring
the right of making laws to be with the House of Commons ex-
clusively, to shew what a Radical Parliament would do. He
denied that that was proved to have been a Radical Parliament,
and insisted that though some of their acts were very gross,
that others were entitled to praise. They had abolished the
Star Chamber in their first year, and towards the close of their
career they had passed the Navigation Act, and commenced an
inquiry into the expence attendant on legal proceedings, which
had however unfortunately dropped and never since been
resumed. He knew of no circumstance connected with the
choosing of that Parliament which should lead them to consi-
der it a Radical Parliament. To him it appeared that they
should rather come to a contrary conclu'sion, and with respect
to time, as it aimed at perpetuity, it was the most unradical
Parliament that had ever sat. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then had no right to call it a Radical Parliament. As well
might he give that name to the Parliament in the time of
Henry the Eighth, which had declared that the King's Procla-
mation should have the force of law. In conclusion, he begged,
at an humble distance, to imitate the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, by asking one or two questions. He wished to ask if
the Right Honourable Gentleman was a friend to the whole
Constitution, how he reconciled himself to the idea of support-
ing that state of things, which, according to him, made the
House of Commons almosi Absorb the other two branches of the
Legislature, and in part get rid both of the King and the House
of Lords? He would next ask, supposing things to have gone
thus far, how he could propose to stop where they were ? The
Noble Lord (some impatience having been manifested by the
House) concluded by apologising for having trespassed so long
on their patience. He described the opinion which he had
been brought to entertain on this subject to be one directly
opposed to his early prejtidices and education.—lle was,
however, fully convinced that Refocus was necessary, and al-
though it would not immediately remove the existing distress,
it would go a great way towards doing so, by soothing the pub-
lic mind. In order to get out of the present horrible system,
great privations must be submitted to—great sufferings must
be endured ; and to encourage the people to endure these it
was necessary that a Reform should take place in that House,
and that the people should be represented by those who are
really the objects of their choice.
Mr. DUNCOM BE said, the plan of Mr. Pitt was to reduce
the Rotten Boroughs ; but that great statesman deprecated
more than any individual, Annual Parliaments, and Universal
Suffrage. He could never consent to hazard the fate of the
country upon wild theoretic plans. He opposed the Motion.
Mr. C. W. W YNN said the arguments in favour Qf the
Noble Lord's proposition having continued five hours, it was
but fair a few remarks should be heard on the other side.—
H e was the more induced to address the 11,ouse in conse-
quence of the attack made by the Noble Lord upon all who
sat on the Ministerial benches. The Noble Lord said, the
Members of that House, as it was then constituted; whether
Whigs or Tories, were equally the abhorrence of the people.—
He was strongly disposed' to dispute the judgment of the
Noble Lord on that point. With respect to his own character,
he might consider it equal to the !Noble LOrd's.—( Hear, hear !)
It might be called vanity, but there was something due to
himself, and he repelled with scorn any statement to make the
House believe he had not the confidence and approbation of his
constituents. He was as much respected by his consti-
tuents as the Noble Lord could be. He appeared before them.
They examined his conduct, and had expressed unqualified
approbation. He saw a disposition to excite a laugh, and un-
dervalue the course of his political life, but it would be found,
upon close examination, that he had acted with consistency.
He had certainly ceased to support persons with whom he
formerly acted, because he found they were abusing the name
of-liberty, and attempting to overthrow the best interests of the
country. After Buonaparte was put down, he found a strong
disposition on the part of many persons to dishonour the Con-
stitution. He disagreed with them, and his disagreement in-
creased every day. The opposition shewn to the she acts,
which he, considered the salvation of the country, com-
pleted his disapprobation. He had been asked how he could
support the Salt Tax ? His answer was, because it was
not the time to repeal it. having been interrogated respecting
his view of the Catholic question, he could answer, that lie con-
sidered it one of the most important questions that ever occu-
pied the attention of Parliament. Whether that great measure
was carried or postponed, he should always support it, con-
ceiving that a full communication of the benefits of the Consti-
tution was the just claim of the Catholic body. The Noble
Lord had stated, that one of the evils of Parliament, as it was
at present constituted, arose from not throwing open the close
boroughs. The Noble Lord had omitted to state, that Shore-
ham, Cricklade, Arundel, and other boroughs, had been thrown
open. Upon the whole, the Hon. Member opposed the Noble
Lord's motion, considering his plan undefined, and not calcu-
lated to produce any beneficial effect.
Mr. ROBINSON rose amidst a loud cry of " Question '

Adjourn !"—He assured the House it was his intention to
occupy more than a short portion of the time of the House. He
felt compelled to offer a few observations on the same ground
that his Hon. Friend who had just sat down had urged. The
Noble Lord had alluded to him as having justified, by some ex-
pression he had made on a former debate, a departure from the
Constitution. He had never supposed he could be considered
the advocate of Parliamentary corruption. The Noble. Lord
had represented him to have said that the diffusion of know-
ledge through the country was a reason why they should use
corruption, and that corruption was necessary to counteract
the effect. He had said nothing like it. If he had argued
that the diffusion of knowledge rendered corruption justifi-
able, he must have taken leave of his senses. He on the con-
trary said, that the cllffusion of knowledge was the greatest
blessing, because it was a check to had feelings, and he rejoiced
that men became more and more enlightened. The Right Hon.
Gentleman having explained what he Yeally did say, opposed
the motion. The public opinion upon the subject of Parlia-
mentary Reform was materially. changed ; many who some
time ago considered the country in the greatest danger, were
now persuaded that they might be saved without the universal
panacea. Seeing that the strength and power of Parliament
had increased from year to year, he was still disposed to abide
by the Constitution adopted.
Mr. CANNING would render some account of the manner
in which the Noble Lord had appealed to him. The Noble
Lord had undertaken, and that with all the ardour of a new
proselyte, to persuade him to persuade the House and the
country, that those new opinions, which, as it appeared,
the Noble Lord had but lately taken up, were the proper
ones upon which to arrange the Constitution of the coun-
try. He should examine a little the grounds upon which
this was proposed, and if ever th.:e were a period at which
the proposal of such a measure was fraught with danger, it was
at the present time—a time peculiarly hostile to Monarchi-
cal Government. They had been told that the majority of
the country were in favour of the measure; but if they
would but look at the country, they would see that the ma-
jority of the Nobility, the Gentry, the Clergy, the Corpora-
tions, in short, of the intelligence of the country, was hostile to
such a measure.—(Hear !)—When he reflected .upon this,. he
should feel the less difficulty in opposing the propositions of the
Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had begun his statement for the
salvation of the country, by describing the country as in a dif-
ferent state from what it was a century ago. He felt that he
had not done justice to the Constitution. In the state the
House then was it had effected the Revolution. He could not
see how that which was of so much advantage then should be
changed now. He had to object to the mode of Reform which
the Noble Lord proposed, as he thought it of a very doubtful
character. The Noble Lord had; however, acted fairly in stating
plainly what he meant in the first place to propose. The Noble
Lord proposed that one hundred M embers should be granted to
the more populous boroughs, and that room should be made
for them by depriving of half their representatives each of 100
cited smaller or decayed boroughs. The Noble Lord had
quoted a number of authorities upon this point ; and among the
rest that of the late Mr. Pitt. Now the Noble Lord must have
beekaware that the plan of Nlr. Pitt was nothing like that pro-
posed by the Noble Lord. Mr. Pitt's plan went to introduce
one hundred new Members, for which room was to be
made by purchasing the franchises of such decayed boroughs
as were disposed to sell ; for which purpose, a fund of one
million was to be provided. Thus the leading difference
was that, by the plan of Mr. Pitt, every species of coercion
was prevented, while this was not the case with other plans.
—The difference • did not thus consist in the details, but in
the very principle of the plans. He did not say that House
voted for the plan of Mr. Pitt, but he was sure that Mr.
Pitt never lost sight of the safe principle. The Noble Lord
had qucted many other authorities besides Mr. Pitt, but there
was one authority which he had not quoted, yet to which he
would pay the greatest deference, after he had heard the name,
which, however, he would not mention till he had read
t'ie passage to which he wished to call the attention of the
House. As to cutting away of' rotten Burghs, although 1
am offended at the transactions which doubtless result from it,

I have my doubts as to the application of the remedy." The
Noble Lord might find this new to him,, and he might suppose
that it was the production of some old Tory writer ; but no such
thing ; it was the production of no, such person. He would
proceed to state the name, or rather the shadow of the name,
of this person—it was none other than Junius. He had, how-
ever, taken the case as a contrast, and not as an example ; yet
what he had stated was not his only objection. H e objected to the
use of power—to the taking away of the franchise of a borough
without even an attempt at compensation. Even if the first
Resolution of the Noble Lord were carried, to what a multi-
tude of conflicting plans must it give rise, all, in his mind,
equally destructive of the Constitution—or, most probably, all
terminating in the abandonment of any plan whatsoever, and
committing that House, by a Resolution of its inadequacy, to
lie at the mercy of every wild and visionary scheme. The Noble
Lord has recommended his Motion on the ground that a great

change has taken place in the public opinion as to the litnit to
which the question of Reform should extend. It might be so
that such 4 change had taken place ; yet he must confess that
he did not /understand the grounds on which that assumption
was made. Most surely if he had become a convert to the opinions
of the Noble Lord, he,should still remain not contented with his
conclusions. if he could believe that the douse of Commons was

inadequate to its functions, that all sympathy between it and the
people of this country ceased ; that the only alternative that re-
mained was to put an end to its own existence,—if he were a con-
vert of the Noble Lord's to such a conclusion, undoubtedly he
should never rest satisfied with the simple Resolution of the No-
ble Lord, but would go with the other Noble Lord (Folkestone)
who supported him much deeper into democracy, and fix decisive-
ly on sonie plan of reform. And yet when they looked at the plans
of the respective proposers, not alluding to the schemes of wild

and specUlative visionaries, but to those plans which were sub-
mitted by some of the ablest and most enlightened men in the
country ; even under such auspices there yet existed such a
variety:of opinions, such a diversity of schemes, that nothing like
an unanimity of purpose could be anticipated. He had
only•to recal the attention of that House to the memorable
Petition presented in 1793 by a gentleman of the first ta-
lents and consideration in the coantry, now a Member of
the other House (Earl Grey). He alluded to that Petition
with no feeling of disrespect ; but what did that Petition,
so ably drawn, allege ? It limited itself to three allegations ;
it sought first, one uniform right of voting ; secondly, that
the right should be taken from small bodies ; thirdly, that it
should be extended to large bodies of the population ; and that
the duration of Parliament should be abridged. Oki the Noble
Lord (Russell) fancy that his simple •proposition of that night
would satisfy the wishes of those able men who drew and who

attached their signatutes to that memorable petition ? Must he
not assent to each of these proposals, or give up the possibility of
effecting a change satisfactory to them ? Opposed as he was to
the motion of the Noble Lord, he should certainly also reject those
proposals, because if he were
,to indicate the peculiar quality

nwbich.fitted that House for the fullest exercise Of its functions,

it was that quality which resulted from the variety of the rights
of suffrage. Indeed, were it possible that a Parliament could
exist, returned by the exercise of one uniform right of voting,
that was the Parliament for whose speedy and efficacious refor-
mation he should give his vote—(Hear !)—Why, it was only
last year when the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lambton), who that

night sat behind the Noble Lord, with a moderation and abi-
lity that did him honour, brought forward his specific plan of
Reform. It was true, that by some intervening accident they

were deprived of the opportunity of coming to an issue upon
the subject.—(A laugh. )—But still the proposition of that Hon.
Gentleman was to the extent of making a rasa tabula of the

Constitution, with the view of erecting on the ground so cleared
a new. superstructure of rights. What chance was there of
concurrence between parties who so differed in essentials ?
(liear, hear !)—lt was not many years since it had been as-
serted in that House, that the shortening of the duration of Par-
liaments, without altering wholly their Constitution, would be
inexpedient. There were other Reformers who thought much
higher of an abridged period of duration—who thought that
by Parliaments touching their parent earth at shorter intervals,
a new accession of strength must accrue to the creature from
that connection with its creator.—(Hear, hear ?)—How were
these contrarieties to be reconciled ? Or, if the question were 'to
be discussed at all, why should it be taken up separately and
successively ? Was it not evident, that to record the disease
without any agreement as to the remedy could neither be
salutary to the character of Parliament, nor satisfactory to
the wants of the people ? He should not, however, deal
fairly with the House, if he 'did not deny the assumption of
this disease—if he did not deny the practical results which
the Noble Lord had endeavoured to draw from a particular
enumeration of the decisions of that House. There would
be no end to discussions if such a criterion as that furnish-
ed arguments for an alteration in the constitution of Parlia-
ment. They must tight over again every well fought question
which they had before decided, until such a warfare became in-
terminable. In every popular assembly, constituted as it might
be, party feeling must have its influence more or less. No mat-
ter what the alteration in its constitution—it is the charac-
teristic of every popular assembly in every free state. It was
so at Athens arid at Rome as it was in Britain : but be it a vice
to eradicate, or a quality to praise, it was the inseparable con-
dition of human nature, and would exist, no matter what the
construction might be of a popular assembly. He did not mean
to defend the influence of such a feeling, when )rushed to an ex-
treme. He did not contend that the merits 'of the case were to
be overlooked, and the merits of the men to over-rule ; but, not-
withstanding what the calmness of philosophy, and the coldness
of historical record, might suggest, yet such a feeling will pre-
ponderate ; and he believed he might say that, in deciding on
the very expedition to which the Noble Lord alluded, the
question went to this—whether or not the Administration of
the day were to be displaced or not ?—(Hear hear !)—The
Noble Lord had, however, himself admitted, that in a single
instance—that of the Revolution—a discrepancy between
that House and the popular impressions was not only pardon-
able but praiseworthy. Undoubtedly, the Noble Lord was
right, for if the inhabitants of the three kingdoms had been
polled at that great era, the settlement of the Crown, that then
was fixed, would never have received the popular sanction. The
House of Commons did on that occasion exercise its sound
and larger capacity, and decide in favour of the people against
their prepossessions. It was not true, therefore, that the House,
in order to discharge its trust with 'fidelity to the people, should
respond to their voice.—(Hear, hear!)—He would appeal
to another instance in the year 1810, when he had the honour
to divide in a minority of thirty on the subject of the depre-
ciation of the currency. Though he now felt, and he believ-
ed the country were convinced, that the views of that mino-
rity were sound, yet he was equally convinced that the majo-
rity to which he was opposed spoke the sense of the country.
In 1819, on the question of the Resumption of Cash,Payments,
if the City of London and the other large cities of the kingdom
had been polled, their impressions would have been contrary
to the decision of that House. It was- not a true proposition,
therefore, that a defective representation, as it was styled,
because it was an echo of the public impressions, could
attend to the interests of the community. It would have
been a base representation if it had not hazarded a tem-
porary unpopularity in order to effect a great national good.
There remained another question, shortly to be brought be-
fore the consideration of that House—he meant the Catho-
lic Question. Sure he was that the judgment of that House
on that question was in advance of the opinion of the country.
.The country was coming up to them—(Hear !)—but he might
say, that in all the early votes it was not with them, and was
even yet to be convinced that they were right. If then on a ques-
tion essentially affecting the national settlement, the national
faith, and the national tranquillity, the popular impression were
opposed to the duty of Parliament, did not these practical con-
clusions dash to the ground the inference that that House im-
perfectly discharged its high functions, because, forsooth, in
some instances, their decisions differed from what was supposed
to be the popular impression ?—( Hear, hear ! )—But if we looked
back to older times we should see influence as plainly recorded
as at the present day. There was a great difficulty in meeting
that part of the question. There was imputed to those who de-
fended the present construction of the House, a degree of shame.
lessness in defending abuses. Now it was hard that those
who denied the existence of these corruptions should be
charged with shamelessness, however they might have exposed
themselves to the charge of an affected prudery. It was,
however, a curious inquiry to see how far back they existed.
It had been said that the reign of Henry the Sixth was the period
when this supposed Parliamentary purity was most conspicu-
ous. The Right Hon. Member then referred to a paper, from
which he read an extract relative to a certain Duchess of Marl-
borough, who had ordered her menial Servants to be returned
as Members of Parliament. Ile (Mr. Canning) did not say that
was right, but it was ancient—(a laugh.)—lt was a proof at
most of imitation, but not of degeneracy. He would next re-
fer to the time of Cromwell and of Charles 11. There was a
document which he would read, and which had been often
quoted as a proof of the simplicity of the writer, in which
it was stated that the Countess of Pembroke, in the reign of
Charles 11. addressed the electors of Appleby, and, in bin-
guage not very courteous, declared to John Williamy—`‘ Your
man shall not stand."—(Laughing.)—There was a third in-
stance since the Revolution, when the Duke of Shrewsbury and
a Lord Chancellor offered the representation of Westminster to
Lord Russell, provided he stood the poll of Middlesex for a
single day.—(Laughter, and hear, hear !) Whatever malprac-
tices exist in the exercise of the elective right, he was as
ready as any man to award punishment. To any series
of propositions, borne out by proof, on that point, he shouldalways give a willing support. By any sweeping alteration
he did not think that even a temporary popularity would be
gained by that House; but even were it gained, the attain-
ment would soon be followed by lasting reproach, and un-
erringly tend to permanent evil.--(Hear, hear !)—The Noble
Lord had first devoted his labours to that practical Reform,

which he (Mr. Canning) was ever willing to support ; but
the Noble Lord had since not only renounced his former
faith, but placed himself in the confessional chair, and de-
manded a confession of his (Mr. Canning's) belief. The
Noble Lord has stated it as my opinion, that either the Re-
formers must reconstruct the system, or bring it back to an
alleged period of purity. That there was no otb9r alternative.
Before, however, the Noble Lord catechised An, he (Mr.
Canning) should wish to know -which was ias beau ideal
of Reform—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He had a right to get an
answer to such a question from the Noble Lord. If, how-
ever, he looked to the period of its purity, and travelled back
with the Noble Lord, passing through the right of the line,
with the certainty of having a more clear illumination -on the
subject, he would find the Members of the Commons not so
much the chosen as the selected representatives ()ribose who se-
lected them. But when, in aftertimes, the House of Commons
became a co-ordinate part of the state, to say thAt it ought to
become more popular in its origin, was what he denied. If to.
the influence it held as that co-ordinate part of the state, were
added the consciousness of its owing its origin exclusively to
the people, from whom it was said all power sprung, then that
House too must of necessity preponderate over both the Crown
and the House of Lords, and become finally the subverter of

the other branches, and 'the swallower of all 'power,—( Hear !)
for how could a House of Commons, thus situated, tolerate any
brother near the throne ? He could not understand how the
Crown, how the Nobility could co-exist with an assembly iipt
discussing the interests, but pronouncing the will of the peol*
from whom it emanated. It was impossible that any other branch
of the Constitution could exist pari fronte. It wor2d, it was
said, abolish the Nobility, and dismiss the King. If it were
said they were useless branches, they deserved to be dismiss-
ed, but not being useless, but beneficial, the House of Coin-
mons would cherish and protect them !—Cherish and protect
them ! 'Words that at once proved the very predominance of the
power of a Reformed House of Commons. That was the ar-
gument of a man canonised by death, after a life of splendid
and generous exertions in the service of his country, Mr. For.
It was, however, the only, but an explicit answer to his ques-
tion, as to the power of a reformed House of Commons._
That might be an admirable Constitution, but it was not
the Constitution under which he (Mr. ('.) was born, to which
he owed allegiance, and which lie certainly would not wish
to see superseded by such a substitute. We should not look
too curiously' at the construction of bodies politic or natu-
ral. Fearfully and wonderfully we are made, is the language
of an inspired writer ; but however the anatomist might
admire the mechanism of the human economy, who that look-
ed at the bare skeleton could, at first view, discover that living
agent on whose exertions, by the command of God, such great
and ennobling duties depended?
ry

" Ccelumque tueri
Jussit, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus.7
The Right Hon. Gentleman, in a most eloquent speech, pro.
ceeded to the further discussion of the question, and at half-
past one sat down amidst the cheering of the House, having
spoken nearly two hours. •
Mr. DENMAN said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had offered
no one observation to shake the proofs which his Noble Friend
had offered of the existence of abuses. It was absolutely ne-
cessary to declare the existence of the disease before they at-
tempted to find out a cure. ' The excuse offered by the Right
Hon. Gentleman for the conduct of the House on occasion of the
Walcheren Expedition, was a powerful argument in favour of
Reform. It proved that the House neglected its duty, by mak-
ing the question a mere struggle for place and power. The
Hon. and Learned Member at some length supported the mo-
tion. It was notorious that there were many instances similar
to that of Grampound, the fate of which would only induce
more caution in the nefarious traffic. He thought the House
would lose the respect even of the Government itself, if they did
not shew some respect for the opinion of the people. Indeed
was very questionable whether they had not already lost the re-
spect of the Government ; for he thought it perfectly new doc-
trine that a Minister should declare in that House his determi-
nation to resist an Address of that House seconding an exercise
of the prerogative of mercy.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL having said a few words in reply,
Mr. PEEL merely rose to take some notice of an allusion
which had been twice made in the course of this debate, to an
observation which had fallen from him last night. He did not
rise to explain away or retract, but to repeat and uphold, what
he said with reference to the case of Mr. Hunt. He informed
the House last night that he had advised the Crown not to ex-
ercise what he considered the peculiar, exclusive, and almost
sacred prerogative of mercy, in the case of Mr. Hunt. He had
declared, at the same time, that if the House should take a dif-
ferent view of the question, and determine unanimously to ad-
dress the Crown in behalf of Mr. Hunt, he would not be the
instrument for carrying such a recommendation into effect.—
This sentiment he now repeated. He did not use it as a me-
nace, and he was sure the House would acknowledge that the
words in which it was conveyed implied no want of deference
to the House of Commons of England. He felt, himself called
upon to make that declaration, from a conscientious conviction
as to the merits of the case ; and he should consider himself
unworthy of the place he held, if any circumstances could in-
duce him to become the instrument of carrying into effect a,
purpose which he felt to be inconsistent with his conscientious
sense of duty.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
For the motion - - - - - 164
Against it - - - - - - 269
Majority - - - - —lO5
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and at
HALF-PAST TWO this Mornnig the House adjourned.