The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-18 00:00:00

SUPPLY

Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.
The first vote was for 165,373/. for the Ordnance es-
tablishment in this country and in the colonies.
Mr. HUME said that the course which the estimates
were taking was such as to preclude all discussion. It
was absolutely necessary for the Government to make
up their minds before next session what course they meant
to take with respect to the colonies. The waste which
took place in the stores sent out there were so great as
to jestify any complaints which the people of England
might make. There was great room tor economy in
these matters, both by the union of the different stores,
and by putting the expense of stores upon the colonies
themselves, and in this way a great relief might be
afforded to the British public. Immense quantities of
these stores were accumulated together, and many of
them spoiled. If the Noble Lord did not attempt to
reduce the expenditure, he would he compelled to do so
next year, or soma one else would do it for him. The '
waste in the article of gunpowder, expended in salutes
and such nonsense, was enormous. Why, he understood
that a Bi.:Aop in the colonies could not shift about
from one place to another without a royal salute. This
was a church militant certainly. Then there was the
review at Chatham, which was to take place shortly,
which he was informed wculd cost an immense sum
of money. Every shell thrown cost lls. 6d. These
might appear trifles, but he thought that they were pay-
ing for war in a time of peace, and he thought that he
was justified in demanding from the Government for the
people of England the benefits and blessings of peace.
If they exhaust themselves and run to the last shilling
in the time of peace, what were they to do in time of
war? A large addition to the national debt has been
made since 1828, ad there was no step taken whatever
to reduce it. They might have saved upwards of
500,0001. in the expenditure of the African squadron,
but they had taken no step whatever to at all mitigate
that evil. He was, perhaps, wasting his time in not
taking individual instances, but he might have shown
that the expenditure of powder in salutes could well
have been saved, and he at leat trusted that the salutes
to bishops would be discontinued.— (Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had found fault with
a very innocent enjoyment, which Mr. Burke had stated
as being a most agreeable sound, and as the only cause
of regret which he experienced on leaving office, a
feeling to which in his own capacity he could bear tes-
timony.—(A laugh.) Then, with regard to the shots
and shells to which his Hon. Friend had referred, al-
though he might himself equally object to the salutes in
which the powder was expended, and especially
as
respected that which was expended in salutes to bishops,
he was certainly quite ready to throw them aside. But
his Hon. Friend should remember that during the
last war no peer went on board a man-of-war without
being saluted.—(Hear, hear.) With regard, however,
to the expenditure for stores, it should be also recol-
lected that it was only in the time of peace that they
could prepare for war, and what would his Honourable
Friend think, if any opulent London merchant who had
his warehouses well stored with valuable property, and
who had had his premises watched for a series of years
by a watchman, who walked about the premises with a
blunderbuss in his hand, and yet because the property
had never been molested, because nobody had broken
into the place, refused any longer to retain his watch-
man.—(Hear.) The property might in future be safe, but
if it was not, what would be thought of his prudence?—

(Hear, hear.) The Government had acted upon this
principle, and had prepared for any contingency that
might arise.—(Hear.) Then with regard to the com-
plaints of his Hon. Friend on the point of reducing the
national expenditure, he would refer him to the speech
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tam-
worth (Sir R. Peel) on the estimates, which had made a
great impression upon the House, and in which he had
reminded them that upwards of 39,000,000/. of taxation
had been removed from the burdens of the people since
the termination of the war, so that while providing for
the public safety, the Government had not been negligent
of economy.
Mr. V. SMITH did not think that his Noble Friend at
the head of the Treasury had treated the observations of
the Hon. Member for Montrose with fairness. What that
Hon. Member complained of was not that there was a
sufficient quantity of stores for warlike operations, but
that while there was a sufficient stock they were conti-
nually adding to it.—(Hear, hear.) Now every one
knew that just in proportion as the stock increasad the
establisment must increase.—(Hear, hear.) Besides,
in this age of science and civilization new discoveries
were continually being made which entirely superseded
the old ones, just as the application of detonating locks
had thrown aside the old flint and steel.—(Hear, hear.)
Then, besides this loss, there was always the waste of
perishable materials to increase the expense and reduce
the value of the stock. Much observation had been
made upon the defence of the colonies, but it should be
recollected that in those dependencies which could pro-
perly be called colonies there was now a maturity of
inherent vigour which quite enabled them to take care
of themselves. And when such a stage was reached in
all private relations the system was adopted of leaving
those who were able to take care of themselves; so it
ought, in his opinion, to be followed in all matters of
public moment, and the troops, therefore, which were
retained for the defence of the colonies ought to be paid
by those in which they were garrisoned. As to those places
which were only fortresses, in which troops were sta-
tioned for the general advantage of the empire, of
course the expense of sustaining them ought to come
out of the Consolidated Fund.—(Hear, hear.) But he
did protest against their keeping up an armament that
was capable of exterminating all Europe; and looking
upon the present state 15f our foregn relations, the esti-
mates appeared to him to be greatly disproportionate to
the requisition of the public service.—(Hear, hear.) He
was aware that the report of the Committee, of which he
had been a member, was not intended to take effect this
session; but he sincerely trusted it would not be lost
sight of, and that it would be carefully considered before
it was entertained in another.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that he meant to throw
no imputation upon the assertions of his Hon. Friend,
tnahei gehotubn
e
ibouctuhr
ree
do liyt
wmaesanbte
tttoe
rs atyo
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ffa
et ,r tthboautgthu
aeox pl
eeanvs
oe
try without sufficient means of defence.
Mr. HTJME also wished to explain, that though he
was by no means opposed to every necessary requisite
provision for defence, yet he thought that there need be
no needless outlay for that purpose. And he would take
the Noble Lord's own illustration for the purpose. If
the London merchant had found one watchman quite
sufficient for the protection of his premises, why
should he increase the force from the apprehension
of a danger which might never arise? for if from any
such groundless fear he added three or four watchmen
to the establishment, he would be justly chargeable with
an extravaganee from which no possible benefit could
arise.—(Hear and laughter.) The instance was the more
striking as the money to pay for it came out of other
people's pockets —(Cheers.)
Mr. COBDEN believed that Government could ob-
tain every article they required cheaper from private
enterprise than they could manufacture it.—(Hear,
hear.) The Government were about to bring in a Bill
to take railway stock, he thought they had better take
their own stock first.—(Hear, hear.) He thought to
keep up large ordnance stores was totally unnecessary,
and ought no longer to continue. The Eon. Member
deprecated in caustic terms the desire that was
displayed by the Government to create establish-
ments on every barren rock in the world,
and particularly alluded, as evidence of that, to
Hong-Kong and Labuan. Ho thought the ob-
servations of Mr. Sidney Smith with respect to the Tories
was doubly applicable to the present Government. The
Honourable Member then referred to the ex-
travagant stock of stores that was kept, and de-
signated it as not only useless, but improper.
Now, why keep such an amount of stores always in stock,
when any extraordinary supply could be obtained at a
fortnight's notice, if they chose to give a small additional
price? The effect of keeping this enormous amount of
stores was, that last year a quantity of old stores
were sold for 760,0001., which he had no
doubt had originally cost upwards of three
millions. A notice had already been given, that in the
course of a year or two the Australian colonies would
be expected to provide their own stores for the forces
engaged in the colonies. That he considered was an ex-
cellent system, and Government ought to be encouraged
in carrying it out. He for one would extend it to
Canada and all the other colonies who claimed the righ
of self-government. The colonies themselves were no

averse to doing so, but what they objected to was,
adopting the policy of the Home Administration.
They objected to taking to the existing stock of
stores and keeping up the forces upon the
present extravagant scale.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not suppose that the colonies could take this responsi-
bility upon themselves now, but what he contended for
was the principle that the time must come, and COM
soon too, when the colonies must not expect any contri-
butions from the Exchequer of th e mother-country towards
the support of their forces. Since 1835 the ordnance
forces had been doubled; bat then, said the Noble Lord

at the head of the Government, "we have reduced the
taxes." Now, that argument was a glaring fallacy. The
taxation had not been diminished ; it had only been
shifted from one shoulder to another, and so far
from the taxation having been reduced, he was
prepared to prove that since the Duke of
Wellington's Government it had increased five millions.
He hoped, therefore, the Noble Lord would not com-
plain of the tone and temper of these remarks, or con-
sider him unjust, when he told the Government that by
the commencement of next session they must be pre-
pared with proposals for large reductions in the ex-
penditure if they wished to retain the eonfidence of the
people.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not complain of the
tone of the Honourable Gentleman's remarks, or of
the principle ho had laid down, that before the
Government undertook the manufacture of particular
articles the onus probandi rested with them to
show that the articles could not be supplied to
greater advantage by private individuals; but he
eould not agree with him that it was not neces-
sary to keep up the present amount of stores.
The Hon. Gentleman's principle was, that a great part
of the defence of our colonies should be thrown on the
colonies themselves. Now, Earl Grey, when he entered
into office, adopted the principle; and he (Lord John
Russell) thought that, in many instances, it might
be carried out with great advantage. If, however,
they were to say that they intended no longer
to undertake the defence, for instance, of the citadel of
Quebec, he was afraid that such a declaration would ho

looked upon as a virtual abandonment by this country
of Canada. The true wisdom was to steer between

two extremes, via., taking upon ourselves the en-
tire defence of the colonies, and refusing to con-
tribute any assistance whatever for that purpose,
which he thought would show that we cared no
longer about our colonial empire. Very large
and serious questions were connected with
this subject, which would be maturely considered by the
Government, with a view, ott the one hand, of having no
unnecessary expenditure, and, on the other, of endea-
vouring to act fairly and with goodwill towards our
colonies, which, he believed, would not only enhance the
greatness of this empire, but the cause of civiliwition.
IMr. COBDEN said; he had a high opinion of Earl
Grey, and he looked to him for great and beneficial
changes in the constitution of our colonies.
Mr. ELLIS had had the honour, during Lord Mel-
bournea Administration, to be one of a Commission
along with the Noble Lord at the head of m
the present
wenseont
Government, appointed to inquire into this
beforo the House, and that Commission had seen the
necessity of some central control over the expenditure.
He must press upon the attention of the Noble Lord
the necessity of reform, unless they wished to have a
renewal of these disunions.

Mr. HUME called the attention of the House to the
increase of the vote for barracks during the last few
years. In 1835 and 1836 the vote was 85,0001. Since
then it had been increasing gradually until this year,
when it was 183,0001. As long as they maintained the
immense number of soldiers they had at present, with the
preposterously large staffs in all direction, they must keep
up a proportionate areouut of artillery. There never
had been such a lavish expenditure in such items in this
country before. Until there was in this country, as
there was in others, a Minister of War to whom the
entire responsibility might be entrusted, there would
always be a great waste from the divided authority of

our present system.
Colonel ANSON said the position which ha held
forced him to say a few words. He thought that
his Honourable Friend bad not stated correctly the
increase in the votes for this year and former
years. The expense had certainly been increased, but
the Government had thought it requisite to increase the
strength of the army, and he thought the House would
be inclined to support them in their determination. The
expenses of the establishment at home had decreased,
but those abroad bad increased owing to the addi-
tional colonies which they had aeqbuairrteacd.ksAs
thete
the increase in estimates for
Government had been forced to extend barrack
accommodation from the many complaints which
had been, forced upon them from all quarters.
He did not stand there as an advocate for keeping up
large quantities of stores, and if
would
eGoe reduced.vernmen w
Government thought
it expedient not to do so, they be
ground
old guns
rcood
of
f would
economy
into,st.ofeuticdh 21. a
not
bet ton; so
expedient; t
toon
Bell
them. The Government, during the recess, would
the whole of the report into consideration. lie trusted,
therefore, the vote would pass without further discussion.
Tho vote was then agreed to.
71,3301. was next voted for the wages of artificers in
the United Kingdom and the colonies.
163,4181. was next voted for ordnance land and sea
stores.

Colonel ANSON, in reply to Mr. Hume, intimated
that there was every probability of the quantity being
reduced.

Sir J. GRAHAM had already said that the report
required much time for consideration by the Govern-
ment. The cash accuunt of the navy, ordnance, and
army was very satisfactory; but the naval and ordnance
store-books were most improperly kept.--(gear.
The Committee had reported that this subject should be early attended to. He hoped, looking at the cost of these
stores, that next session they would find an alteration
in these things ; and he trusted the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who was eouvereaut with the mode of

keeping the Admiralty accounts, would attend
to it. lie had intended, when connected with
the Admiralty fifteen years ago, to make the
alterations he now proposed, but circumstances pre-
vented his doing so ; but at the present time the books
were in the same unsatisfactory state.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the subject was a most important one, and that he should
direct his attention to it with the assistance of Mr. An-
derson and Mr. Hopkinson.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said, in the event of war, many of
the old stores would be valuless. For instance, there
were flint guns of the value of 145,0001., which, as per-
cussion guns were used, would be worthless. The Go-
vernment should be careful not to get an accumulation of
useless stores.
Colonel ANSON was understood to say that the guns
referred to could be rendered available.
The vote was then agreed to.
236,4364 was next ;proposed for works at Bermuda
and in the Mauritius.
Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH complained of
the expense which these works had entailed upon
this country. During the last few years they
had paid 2,000,000/. -on account of them. This
vote was for works at Mauritius, Bermuda, and
the lonian Islands. It was said that military works were
required at the Mauritius, because the inhabitants were
hostile to us, and that if we once lost it, we should have
great difficulty in regaining it; but this he de-
nied. Already 10,000/. had been expended on the
works at Bermuda, and 5,0004 more was now proposed
to be voted; and as the works would require altogether
216,000/., it followed that it would be 40 years before
they were completed. He objected, therefore, to both
these votes, and hoped that the works would be discon-
tinued. He objected also to the vote for the lonian
Islands, which had already put this country to an enor-
mous outlay.
Colonel ANSON supported the vote.
Colonel THOMPSON, as a matter of curiosity, wanted
to know the good of Corfu. He had been up to the
Gulf of Venice, but had never seen Corfu.
Sir DE LACY EVANS deprecated the present vote,
and trusted that it would be the last required for such a
purpose.
Mr. HUME thought that this vote required revision,
and that a great deal of money had been wasted in use-
less fortifications.
Mr. V. SMITH thought this fortification question
' ouott to be considered before next session, with a view
to its revision. He found fault with a system
that prevailed in the ordnance department of
applying the money voted for postponed works to the
construction of emergency works, as it had the effect of
reducing the Parliamentary superintendence over the
expenditure to a mere farce.
Mr. MILES was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman had
called attention to the system of applying to one pur-
pose money voted for another. It could not be too
strongly condemned, and he hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer A ould take steps to put a stop to it.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Committee, in the report
which had been referred to, had not only pointed out
the evil, but suggested the remedy. They recommended
that where auy sum was expended for unforseen services
or urgent works, of which Parliament had no cognizance,
the Treasury should be called upon, when the estimates
were proposed next year, to record the reasons which
had induced them to make the advances.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there could be no doubt that there were cases of urgency,
in which it would be absurd to say that persons on the spot
should not be allowed to take upon themselves the re-
sponsibility of incurring expense. There were only two
modes of meeting such an expense—first, to vote a
sum annually for unforseen contingencies; secondly, to
postpone other works for which sums had been voted
in order to meet the expense of these unforeseen
circumstances. He was sure he should have the con-
currence of the House that it would not be advisable to
vote a sum annually for such contingencies. It would
be a much better plan for the Treasury to make a re-
turn every year of the advances which they had made in
cases of this kind.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM bore witness to the excellence
of the form in which the estimates were laid before the
House, but complained that there were occasional mis-
takes in filling up the different columns.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had had
his attention already drawn to this. He was fully cog-
nizant of the importance which attached to the correct-
ness of these papers.
Mr. COBDEN observed that the subject of the lonian
Islands had been brought before the House by an Hon.
Member—and he wished to inform the House that many
high authorities, including the Marquis of Lansdowne
and Lord Brougham, had objected to this country taking
possession of these islands. The estimates of the works
in these islands were, even on the evidence of Sir John
Burgoyne, i the ,Inspector-General of Fortifications,
not much to be relied on. The only way in which
they could avoid such lavish expenditure was to make
up their minds not to expend any more on foreign for-
tification. He thought that there was very little need
to keep on adding to the fortifications of such places as
Malta and Gibraltar. He thought that our naval pre-
eminence, which was put forward as an excuse
for so doing, was of itself sufficient to pre-
serve them. The Marquis of Wellesley in 1816 had
made a speech which entirely supported him in this
doctrine—a speech which, if he, Mr. Cobden, were now
to make, would lay him open to the attacks of Honour-
able Gentlemen opposite, who would charge him with
wishing to abandon all the colonies. The only way to
reduce the expenditure in this quarter was to stop our
hands there altogether.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that 49,8594 be voted for the scien-
tific department of the Ordnance,
Mr. HASTIE was very much rejoiced that the debate
had taken place to-day. He bad no doubt it would be
productive of much good. He should be glad to know,
in reference to this vote, what progress was being made
in the Ordnance survey.
Colonel ANSON said money was being applied to
from time to time.

Mr. COBDEN and Mr. RUNE complained that the
pubic had great difficulty in procuring the Ordnance
maps.

C.;01. ANSON said they could always be had at the
Ordnance office.

Mr. COBDEN suggested that a central depot should
be established in London, where stationers could procure
these maps without difficulty.
The report was then agreed to.
On the question that 86,6691. be voted for defraying
the expense of the non-effective civil and military ser-
vices attached to the Ordnance,
Major BLACKALL complained that more colonels
retired from the engineers and artillery on full pay than
from all the 146 battalions of the line, owing to some
undue regulations having been made in their favour.
Mr. F. MAULE was understood to say that the
Gallant Major was mistaken in his latter conclusion.
Mr. HUME took that opportunity of recommending
Government to reduce the expenditure on cadetships.
After some observations from Colonel ANsoN and
Mr. COBDEN,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the disputes in the
River Plate were now near a termination.

The vote was then agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered
to be brought up on Friday.
ADVANCE OF MONEY (ATHLONE TO GAL-
WAY RAILWAY) BILL.
This Bill, as amended, was considered in Committee.
Several verbal alterations were made, and the Bill was
agreed to.

—On tho motion that the report be brought up,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had given a very
reluctant assent to this measure, believing that it
was dangerous to give outdoor relief in Ireland; but
as this advance of 500,0001. was the second that had
been made for railways in that country, he thought he
was justified in asking the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer to give an assurance that this would be the last
advance that he would propose to make for such spe-
culations.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not prepared to give the assurance which the Right
Hon. Baronet required. Ho considered that much good
would be done to Ireland in encouraging enterpriza by
making such advances.
After a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH and Sir H.
WILLOITGHBY,

Mr. GROGAN suggested that all the enactments of
railway Bills in Ireland with regard to taking land
should be re-considered.

The motion was agreed to, and the House resumed.
The Relief of Distress (Ireland) Bill was read a third
inie and passed. _

The report of the Customs Act was received and
agreed to, after a short discussion.
DISEMBODIED MILITIA BILL.

The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. HUME wished to see the militia disbanded alto,
gether. It had cost more than 8,000,0001. of late years,
and was of no earthly use, except to provide berths for
colonels of regiments. He objected to the principle of
conscription by which the militia was filled up.
Mr. FOX MAULE thought that the Hon. Member
was wrong in calling the system of filling up the militia
a system of conscription.
The Bill went through Committee, and the report
was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
The Administration of Justice (Vancouver's Island)
Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. HAYTEIt obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
authorise her Majesty to appoint Commissioners to in-
quire into the claims over the New Forest and Waltham
Forest.

On the motion of Mr. HASTIE, an account was or-
dered of the declared value of the various articles of
British produce and manufactures exported to the Bri.
tish West India Colonies, for the years ending the sth
day, ofJanuary, 1840 to 1849, with the rate of duty on each
article in the colonies; and of the quantities of the prin-
cipal articles of the growth and manufacture of the Bri.
tish West India Colonies imported into the United King.
dein; and of the quantities cleared for home consump-
tion, and the rate of duty charged on each article, with
the Gazette average price of Sugar for the year ending
OD the sth day of January, 1848; also, the number of
ships, distinguishing British and foreign, with their ton-
nage, that have entered and cleared fur the Bri:ish West
India colonies from the United Kingdom, during ttie
same period. Similar returns for the East India
Company's territories and Ceylon. Similar return
for China; similar return for the Mauritius.
Similar return for the British North American Co-
lonies. Similar return for New South Wales and the
Australian Colonies; similar return for the United
States of America; similar return for Cuba; similar
return for the Brazils ; and similar returns for
Mexico and the other ports of South America ;
Alio. returns of ports or creeks in the United Kingdom
approved of by the Honourable tie Board of Customs,
for the warehousing in bond of tea, coffee,:sugar, wines,
spirits, and tobacco. Of the amount of the above-

mentioned goods in pounds and gallons warehoused at