The Sun.
London, England, 1825-06-10 00:00:00

PARLIAME,NT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY, JUNE g.
The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND, and several Mem-
bers of the House of Commons, came to their Lordships' Bar,
and informed their Lordships that a Bill, entitled " an Act to
amend an Act for the better provision of Aliment to Scotch
Prisoners, had been brought up to their Lordships by mistake,
and requested that such Bill might be returned to the House of
Commons.

The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that the same Bill
would be returned to the House of Commons.
Mr. 81100 DEN, Sir GEORGE HILL, and other Members of
the House of Commons, brought up the Irish Bankruptcy Bill,
with the amendments as agreed to ' • the Irish Courts of Exche-
quer Bill, and several Private Bills.
ARTICLED CLERKS' BILL.
The Articled Clerks Bill went through a Committee, and the
Report was received.
The House went into a Committee on the Colombian Postage
Rates Bill, and the Report was received.
On the motion of the Bishop of CHESTER, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee on the Dawley Church Bill, and
the_Report was received.

The Stealing in Mines, also went through the Committee.
QUARANTINE LAWS.
On the motion of the Earl of DARNLEY, the second read-
ing of the Quarantine _Laws amendment Bill was fixed for
Thursday next.—The House then Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Sir C. COLE presented a petition from several Manufacturers
of British Iron, complaining of the reduction of the duty on
foreign iron.—Ordered to be printed.
The Excise iU easures' Regulation Bill was committed.—Re-
port to be received to-morrow.

The Mauritius Trade Regulation Bill was read a third time
and passed.

Mr. DA WSON brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Sale of Offices in the COurt of King's Bench. The
Report was read, and leave given 10 bring in a Bill found-
ed on it.

The Court of Common Pleas Bill was committed, and order-
ed to be reported to-morrow.
The Judges' Salaries Bill was committed, and ordered to be
reported to-morrow.

'The Court of King's Bench Bill was committed, and ordered
to be reported to-morrow.

The Exchequer Bills Bill was committed, and ordered to be
reported to-morrow.

The Newspapers Isostage Bill (to and from the Colonies) was
read a second time, and committed fbr to-morrow.
THE NAVY.
Mr. HUME rose to move for leave to bring in a bill, for re-
moving the defects of the naval system, as far as it regarded
Impressment. or that unconstitutional mode of compelling sub-
jects to enter into the service of the Navy. He would now go
no further than bringing in the bill, and leave it for consider-
ation in the hands of Members, till next Session. He had
been informed by most experienced Officers of the Navy, that
the present abusive system may be altered, with great ad-
vantage to the service and the public. The object of his
i bill would be to remedy the inconveniences suffered by the
numerous persons who filled that part of the public service.
They were subject to the authority of one person, and to
the punishment of flogging without trial or deliberation.
One of his intentions was to abolish that custom : sailors
had as good aright to a trial, as soldiers or others of the
State's servants. The offences ought to be specified, and the
degree of punishment affixed to each ; those offences which
were indefinable ought not to be punished without the inquiry
of a Court Martial. The absence of such a rule was what he com-
plained of. Every other class Of the community was entitled to
trial before punishment. Soldiers could not be punished without
investigation, why may not sailors enjoy the same advantage?
There were ships whose crews amounted to 5 or 600 men, in
which discipline was carried on without punishment of a man
for months, while there were others of the same size in which
the Captains inflicted most frequent punishment. It was never
the intention of Parliament to confer the power of arbitrary
punishment on the officers of the army ; by a parity of reason-
ing, he demanded the same privilege for the sailors of the
British Navy. The slaves of the West Indies were exempted
from the punishment, by flogging, for 24 hours after the com-
mission of the offence ; yet a free subject of Britain, entering
into the Naval Service of his country, was deprived of that pri.
vilege. All he asked for the sailors was, that they may not be
punished immediately after the commission of their offences—
that they may, in that respect, be placed on a footing with the
slaves of the West Indies. The lion. Member here read two
letters, the first of which detailed instances of the hateful and
degrading practice of starting men on board a ship, commanded
by the gallant Admiral opposite (Sir George Cockburn), then
Capt. Cockburn. It was true, that 'was above twenty years
since. (Laughing.) And, to prove that this was the practice
often, in later times, he read an extract from the second letter,
stating an occurrence of a similar nature of summary punish-
ment on board another ship ; indeed, the custom of starting
sailors and marines, or, in other words, flogging them on the
naked back with a cane, had been so frequent on board ships,
that the Admiralty had lately ascertained, that out of an entire
crew of 68 men, 59 had been thus punished during three years'
service; and of the seamen, thirty-eight in number, thirty-six
had been punished ; and this without any trial, but at the arbi.
trary pleasure of the commanding officer, who had merely
been admonished in this case. It would be wasting the time of
the House to adduce other similar instances of barbarity; it was
enough that it was proved to have ever taken place to warrant
his application to the House for permission to bring in this Bill.
lie strongly recommended the introduction of a clause like that
in Mr. Wynciliam's•Bill, relative to soldiers, limiting the period
of each seaman's service, at the time of entering, to 5,7, or
even 10 years. This would produce volunteering to an extent,
in his mind, sufficient to man the Navy at all times. A similar
arrangement with respect to the marines would be most desir.
able. In both cases they should be entitled, on coming into
an English port. to demand their discharge. As to the exist.
ing unreasonable regulations with respect to the pay of our
sailors, he felt it highly expedient that a change should imme-
diately take place, for it was absurd to think men would volun-
tier to serve on board his Majesty's ships, and receive 345. a
month, when they could get 31. 10s. on board a merchantman.
In addition to the inducements enumerated to volunteers, he
should propose that each man who had served ten years should
be entitled to a pension, and those who had -served a less pe-
riod, a proportionately less pension. With reference to prize. •
money, he would reverse the Admiralty table, or regulations,
altogether, and give six.eigbths to the petty officers and seamen,
and two eighths to the Captain and Officers holding commis-
sions. This ought to be sufficient for the latter, most of whom,
being men of birth, or young Noblemen, entered to obtain not
so much the emoluments us the honours of the service. Above
all things, he shoold recommend that an accurate list of all the
seamen in the United, kingdom should be registered, so as that
on all oceasicms Of-great emergency the Government might call
out in turn such persons as appeared.by the registry to be liable
to serve, in the same manner as had been the practice nearly
150 years ago. The- Hon. Member then Moved, " that leave
be given to bring in a Bill to amend the 22d :of George the 2d, '
cap. 33, for the better provision of seamen, and the More effec-
tual regulation of his Majesty's Nevi "
Sir COCKBURN-said, he had some reason to '
complain of the course taken upon this occasion- by the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen. -Contrary to the usual courtesy of Par-
liament he had come down- to the. House prepared to make
charges against him,- without having given him d►e slightest in-
timation of his intention. Under these circumstancesi he err_
tainly felt himself to be in a very aukward condition, the dis-
tance of time; 1805, being so
'great, that he could not exercise
that conanand over his Memory which should enable him to
make so full an answer for his conduct to cite fltntse as he; under
the charges of the Hon. Member, wished to do.--(llear, hear !)
—He perfectly well knew that the discipline of the Navy' twenty
years etto) was a very different thing to what it was now. But
about the time to which the Hon. Member referred, those
changes which had since been; by a progressive course, effaced,
were newly introduced. And lie very well remembered having
i
given orders to the officers of his ship not to start the men.—
ear, hear !)-1t want. very well known' that amongst thesubordinate afli-cera of the ship, the practice used to be carried
to a much greater extent than was now tolerated ' • and in the
very
instance alluded to by the Hon. Member., he had actually
4with one of his Lieutenants for atartiwe
gnaw:leo a man after
he bad given orders to the contrary, and that officer had since
left the aervice.-e-(Hear vit3l all he was able to soy
with which the Member h
answer to these charges Hon. taken
• If he would bring them forward '
Aim by 'surprise.a more

specific shape, he would be prepared with a more complete refu..
tation. In the arguments which the llon. Member advanced in
support of his motion, he seemed to say that a preference was
given to the merchant service over the Navy. Now in that he was
misinformed ; for what seamen would do for the merchant ser-
vice at 545. they would do for the Navyat 34.,Ithad been already
stated, and he now repeated it, that the Owners of merchant
vessels had made application to have the officers of the Navy
restrained from taking their men when they offered themselves.
. Orders to this effect had in fact been sent out to the different
naval stations, and were it not so it was well known that mer-
chant ships would lose all their hands. This was quite noto-
rious, and a tolerable proof that there was not that distaste for
the service of the Navy which the Hon. Member seemed to in.
culcate. The Hon. Member thought that some pecuniary in-
ducement ought to be held out to enlistment. Tile pension
system, in his opinion, operated in that way. He had also
drawn a comparison betwixt the enlistments in the sea and land
services in favour of the limited period of the latter. It so hap-
pened that the enlistments in the Army were mostly for life,
whereas in the Navy it was not so, the men being generally
paid off at the end of a war. He had also spoken of the arbi-
trary power of punishment in the Navy, and said he wished
to see the sailor put upon the same footing Its the ,soldier.—
But the fact here was the reverse of !plat ife.;had stated._
The system of punishment in the Arritykwherrin'the field, or
in the execution of field movements, was much more arbitrary
and severe than the Navy. Upon these occasions, punish-
ment was inflicted without delay or trial of any sort; and he
believed there were many Members in the House who could
bear him out from actual knowledge, when he stated that even
during the last war instances had occurred of men being hanged
in this manner. Yet their ships were differently situated in
this respect from the army. They went out upon a voyage
round the world, and were sometimes assent for three years.—
How then was it possible for them to summon a Court Mar-
tial ? And if summary punishment were not inflicted, either
it must be forgone altogether, or the men must be put in
chains and kept in that condition, perhaps for the remainder
of the voyage. The Hon. Member actually wished to take from
the navy a power which was held to be legal in the Captain of
a merchantman. By the newspapers of that day he perceived
a judgment in the Admiralty Court, in which it was affirmed
Ithat the Captain of a merchantman did possess the power of
ordering his man to be flogged. He had received many letters
upon this subject, from which, however, lie did not mean to
quote; but he could state a case to the House in which an
officer assured him that he had preserved his ship by a prompt
and exemplary punishment in presence of the crew, when they
were actually about to engage a very superior force of the
enemy. It had for some time been the policy of the Ached-
miralty to discourage corporal punishment ; but it would
be destructive of all discipline to deprive Officers of the
Navy of such a power. All that could be done in this respect
he was convinced was done. Those Officers were encouraged
who found the means of keeping their men in order without
punishment; and those who were thought to exceed in this
particular were put out of commission. They now. teceived
very frequently blank returns of the quarterly punishment of
ships. This being the improving state of affhirs, the Admiralty
having set itself the task of dispensing with corporal punish-
ment as far as was practicable, the House lie was sure would
not interfere to check their successful course, and probably de-
stroy all they had done. It would have a dangerous effect, he
was convinced, to take away altogether the power of punish-
ment from the Officers of the Navy. It was one thing to take
it away, another thing to modify it. With respect to the, second
case to which the Hon. Member had referred, the case of Capt.
Jervoise, the punishnients in that cause appearing to be more
frequent than coincided with the wishes of the Admiralty, the
Officer was superseded. It was, however, his duty to state,
in justice to that Officer, that his men had been frequently
changed during the period that these frequent punishments had
taken place, and that therefore the case appeared much
stronger against him than upon its real merits it deserved. It
was also his duty towards that Officer to state, that facts had
since reached the Admiralty, showing that his crew, when he
joined the ship, were in an excessive bad state ; it had in fact
been made evident to the Admiralty, that they were a most ex-
traordinaree bad ship's company-. He did not mean to gay that
the Admiralty were not justified in what they did, according
to the circumstances of the case as they appeared to them at
the time. At that time the last quarter's return had not readi-
ed them, butwhen it did come, it appeared that the punishments
had almost entirely abated ; and it appeared that when the
Captain left the ship, he had brought it into as high a state of
efficiency and good order as any ship in his Majesty's navy.
s
He ought also to state that the Admiral. commanding on the
had been frequently applied to for a Court Martial
but the rules of the service would not admit of his granting
one. Such was now the istate of the navy in this respect, that
he believed he overstated when he said, that six in a quarter
for each ship was the average of punishments. He thought
the effect of the Honourable Member's Bill would be, to
shake the foundations of the. Navy, and that done, what would
become of the country ? The Hon. Member seemed to have
given up the idea of a total abolition of impressment. This
was the proper view of the question. If the House would al-
low the Government to keep up a war complement of seamen
then the power of impressment would not be
But unless that were the case, it was obvious that
n'Oleuocrise•nesrsagnripiyie. peace,
upon a sudden emergency, when they wished to
send all their ships out t 6 sea, must have the means of laying
their hands upon all seamen in the merchant service. The
Navy was now so much improving, that he had no hesi-
tation in saying that it was now, and would become still
more so, the favourite service. He thought it would be
highly imprudent to attempt to reorganize the Navy at the
present moment. The Honourable Member completely mis-
interpreted the 36th article of war. Drunkenness was the most
common offence for which punishment was administered, and
that offence was made the subject of a separate article. He did
not believe complaints would be made again, and he hoped
the House would not interfere with the existing system. He
concluded by giving the question a direct negative...( Hear l)
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY admitted that the existing sys-
tem was defective, but considered the proposed alteration most
dangerous. Strict discipline was necessary on board of ships—
if it were not kept up it would end in the ruin of the country—
for these reasons he should vote against his Hon. Friend's
motion.—(Hear !)
Sir I. COFFIN rose amid cries of question. He was not
used to trespass on the House—he had never, he believed,
spoken for ten minutes in his life.—(Cries of hear, and laugh-
ter.)--Ilis Hon. Friend had thrown an indirect censure upon
him, by saying that the Naval Officers in the House would be
afraid to deliver their sentiments against the Admiralty. Now
he for one was not afraid of the Admiralty—ear !)--bu he certainly thought that the management of the(H Navy couldt not
he in better hands ; if the Admiralty acted wrong, the House
could. correct them.—tilear !)—His Hon. Friend wanted to de-
prive the Captains of their prize money; ,if that should be the
case, half the Captains in the Navy would-be obliged to go into
good old adage-e Ne rotor
parish workhouses.—(Laughter.-eThe.motieire*as most pre-
eisteroue one. Ilia Hon.' Friend did not belong to the pro-
fession, and ought to remember the
ultra crepidani.:---; Laughter. ihnuld'decidedly oppose the
motion.
-
Mr. ROBERTSON stated that he had served in the East
India Company's Navy, and had some pereonal experience of
eee question. Nine cases of punishment out of -ten
arose from
the misconduct of the officers, rather than from that of the men.
The system lied been improved by inquiry ; why,not inquire
fetcher? He cormnancled a ship himself without the frequent
use of corporal puniehment. He should support the motion of
his lion. Friend.
Sir JOSEPH' YORKE said. that his Hon. Friend who had
!mit spoken was greater than all the greit inert that had ever
flourished in the navy he was the very Solon of the sea, and
ought at once to change his clothes and put on a full admiral's
uniform—( Laughter)--for never did man deserve it better. To
navigate a ship like a men of War, -with only there loud tavi_
gators among the crew. W. the greatest aChievement he had ever
heard of, and to his [lon. Friend ought henceforth to be given the
trust of Wielding in the highest rank the thunders ofehe Britieh
navy. —(A laugh.
)--,Tm he as to the mode ef conducting
courts.
martial, or even the snleinnity Of inflicting
penishinent,he
could declare that the busineet was; silt-ass' 'done with as' much •
syetem, serutiny, and form, as characterized civil proceedings
at home. How,said that men • •
then, could it be , of our and
honour were prone to severity and. oppression
Were naval
'officers in general men of an unfeeling nature ? went=
est
sensible than other men of the inhneneen:ireesinilThtimey
s.
nice- ? and-how but upon the notion of their
could
such a question as this be supported (n. eit, neer !)_.A.
-4 not tieni, but ..some v.tnirds were cod_y of the crews, he di
11. hewever, 1- 4.• others in the remainder, le would.
mo,rat,ol ), his profes-
sional experience declare, that su Iron,, !duets sthoet
upon them, tney iniget as talk
personal character operating
to pigs.-4A laughr them '
n—Sorue we! r Izisensie :AS

brutes, and bore their floggings accordingly ; indeed, they were
classed as formerly the great drinkers were—(he was glad th
practice was on the decline in the navy)—there were the five_
dozen men, as there had been the five-bottle men.--(A
His firm persuasion, however, was, that the existing discipline,
or at least the reserved power of inflicting it, could not be abro.
gated.— (Hear, hear !)
Sir F. BURDETT, without meaning to detract from the
humour of the Gallant Admiral's speech, thought he had given
way to the playfulness of his fancy upon a very serious subject.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen had recommended
them to take into their consideration the propriety of putting
an end to the system of impressment, and of giving some better
reward to our seamen—a course which he had not only sup-
ported by sound reasoning himself, but which had been recom-
mended by able writers and unanswerable arguments elsewhere,
and which was at the same time so obviously necessary and
politic that he really thought it almost unnecessary to oiler an
observation in support of it. An objection to the giving a pro-
per reward for the services of our seamen—a proper remunera-
tion for the sacrifice of their time and health—an adequate coin.
pensation for the danger they incurred—and no one could con-
tend they did not incur danger—he did not expect to hear made
at any time; but now, at this time of superabundant prospe-
rity. he a Learned Gentleman had observed the other night,
when They were so overflowing with wealth that they mull rote.
away large sums unasked, not even...required in one case, and
without the slightest shadow of a pretext, or supported by the
most monstrous arguments in the other; and when, too, they
were voting large sums to increase the salaries of Judges and
other officers of the Crown, to such an extent, and on such
grounds that he did not know how the other persons holding
offices under Government could be content with their allow.
ances, or fail to demand an increase likewise—when he saw
money thus lavished without reason or pretence of public ne-
cessity, he thought it ill became them, when they had, as they
seemed to have, the means in their power, to refuse to take some
means of bettering the condition and rewarding the exertions
of those who. had so gallantly upheld the honour and credit of
the country.--( Hear !)—His Hon. Friend had recommended
the present time of peace as one peculiarly fitted for taking into
their consideration whether means may not be adopted more
efficacious to the service, and more just to individuals, with
regard to the manning of the navy ; and he had connect-
ed with it the system of punishment, because, if men were taken
away by force from their homes, and kept in a state of bondage
and subjection, flogging was a corollary attending upon the
system ; and if there was injustice first, there must be flogging
afterwards. All his Hon. Friend desired was the permission to
introduce to the consideration of the House a plan which he
had formed for the purposes be expressed, and which he be.
lieved, after mature deliberation, would put an end to many of
the evils; he did not ask them to take any measure imme-
diately—he did not wish to bind them to any consent—although
all the world knew the miseries inflicted by flogging, al-
though
all the world knew the bad effects attendant upon
the present system—he simply asked for leave to bring be-
fore them the ground-work of a Bill which they might re-
ject or not next Session, as they found it advisable. lie
thought at least the suggestions of his Honourable Friend
deserved their attention, for he knew no man who brought
a greater quantity of sound practical common sense to
every subject, or who better deserved the good opinion of
the House and the gratitude of the country. His Hon.
Friend said most truly that there was an undue discretion
vested in the Officers, and that beardless boys should not
be allowed to exercise their caprice over veteran seamen, and,
subject them to a punishment, which, to all but the takings of
the sails, as one Hon. Member had said—at least to every honest
British seaman—must be a punishment worse than death. His
Hon. Friend did not say the power of flogging should be taken
away at once ; he only wished that there should be time for re-
flection, that there should be some controul over the passions,
and that by allowing 24 hours to pass by, they might consult
their pillows, and allow temperance to take the place of infu.
riated violence. Why, he would ask, should there not be a
Court-Martial ? It was no answer to talk of the Provost Mar-
tial's execution upon the spot ; his punishments were inflicted
under the eyes of the beholder ; the acts done required no proof;
they -were committed too hi times of danger apd peril; and he
must contend that no argument of that kind was to be drawn
into the defence of a general system from particular acts. His
Honourable Friend, however, only wished a trial, taking to
himself all the danger and disgrace of a failure. If they only
offered adequate rewards to those who were willing to de-
vote their services to the country, and if they at all times made
a proper distrihtttion of prize-money, and made the advantages
equal to the services, he was sure they might put an end to
that home slave trade without the slightest difficulty ; and he
might say he was equally sure that it would be found, after all,
by much the cheapest method of conducting our naval affairs_
(Hear, hear !),—and at the same time preserve our reputation
in the eyes of Europe, by getting rid of a set of laws at once
disgraceful and inhuman.—.(Hear, hear!)—He admitted that
the discussions on the subject in Parliament had done good,
and that the returns to the Admiralty-have checked the propen.
shies to cruelty - but as all men in office were great philoso.
pliers, lie thought it did them no harm to have a flapper occa-
sionally • and he was of opinion that as the Admiralty deserved
some crediti for. their amendments, so also did the flappers who
admonished them of their duty. The Honourable Baronet,
after some observations upon the flippancy of the language
used by the Gallant Admiral (Sir J. Yorke), and his com-
ments upon the 36th article, concluded by saying, that if they
could not obtain the laws of a Solon, they should at alt
events not have those of a Draco, but such as were fit for
Englishmen to submit to, and for that House to sanction.
—( Hear, hear !)
Sir G. CLERK, having heard all the speech of the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen, which he believed the lion. Baronet
did not, thought lie had not made out a prima,fizcie case for the
support of the House. Both the lion. Baronet and the Hon.
Member for Montrose were in error as to the effect of the An_
ticle they wished amended ; for if the whole of the Act of Geo.
11. was repealed, the power of punishment would still remain
the same at Common Law as it is now. The Hon. Members
Wished, as he understood, a something like a military Court
Martial, to prevent punishment for offences from personal mo-
tives ; but if they looked to the offences generally commited at
sea, they would find that they were not committed so much
against the Captain as against some inferior Officer, and
punished by the Captain, upon a, very serious responsibility ;
not immediately, as was supposed, but very frequently after
the lapse of a longer time than the 24 hours desired by the
amendment, which punishment, he begged to add, was re-
gistered and transmitted to the Admiralty. Whenever a
very serious crime was committed they always surrizeion,ed
Court-Martial .; but in the preSent times, unless a vessel
was sailing in contort, it would be a very difficult matter
to find a number of officers .for a Cesiet,kfartial. on. rvery
trifling occasion. Ile never heard any orie, even the lion.
Baronet, declare that flogging could be dive-toted with alto.
'eteitnis,eiiit withoutw e particularlybeing brbught to trite]
when all pnniehs
gether ; and if from necessity that power was vested in the Cap-
tain, under proper controul, he thought the House would per.
ceive that it would not be possible, either for the -good of the
service or the health of the men, that they should be kept
o'e
ofth
and
detpl
ufnerisialrediy
forle pettyngtll
'meats were minutely exionined at the Admiralty once a quarter
—(Bear !) --As to the case of wages whiCh the Hon, Gent sea
dwelt so much upon, laeuntst sly the government found no
diis
culty in procuring men at 345. ; anti he felt ettnildelit ho much
better was the service than that of the mercantile, that if the Se 0.
vernnient raised their wagetathe merchants must raise theirs in
proportion, srleavetheirshipa unmanned. The HoneMemberhad
selected the returns from the Bulwark and :slime other vessels, but
he might as well say that because there happened to be tw ea 'itai
Conviction at aboroughtownorta particitharAnizea there aho'lild
be fin criminal law, as so argue horn the. ease-one
two
vessels as to the reidatione fitting for the whole service. The
lion. Member, in his arguments
k
upon pensiatia, had for :fel
that. since the year 181.5. every aeaman, after serving or
years, is entitled tea pension Of 214, whether he is
woin
not ; and if worn out or disabled is less tiine, he is entitled- or
to
18d. a day ; or if he happen! to be a peety officer, it m
tirnount to 451. If, too, the ;lon. Gentleman's system waiYieven
gard to prize-money was put in force, and Officers heft to, re-
t. the
reward of the gloryhonour of their labonrs,
instead of 7s. Bd. did the Hon. Gentleman rec"ing
that the Captain was bound to make goo all errors
in
erecollect
and that, without receiving such shares, he might freaphnel ruin both hit wife antifamily by his zeal for the servic titiently
Hon. Gentleman concluded by declaring it to be ins, e*
that the Member for Montrose had not made Out caseto 'im-
°P'''J°"
prove the system, and that he muss thereforese the
motion.
• Sir F. OMMANEY said the Member for Montrose
thrown the whole country into confhsion by repealing the
lead
bination Laws, and would now risk itts safety hy.The:lif Coble
g with
the navy. He thought the seamen's wages were arse enough,

PRICE SF,VANPENcr,.

and every body knew that they had more prize-money titan
they knew what to do with.:
Mr. HUME, in reply, alluded to the motion of Col. Luttrell
in 1777, on the same subject, and declared that it had been with-
drawn on a solemn promise by the Government, that something
should be done on the evil of impressment. 'Year after` year
had, however, passed away without any alteration. The lien.
Gentleman then recapitulated his arguments, and urging .upoa
the House the necessity of considering the case next Session,
declared his intention of taking its sense upon the question.•
Mr. SYKES rose amid cnes of question.—He condemned
the system of impressment, and related the Story of a father in
Newcastle who consoled himself when his child lad its fingers
chopped off, by the reflection that it could not 'be pressed into
the service.---The House then divided.
Ayes - - - - 23
Noes

Majority against the motion 22
CHARTER SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the question he was about to
submit to the House was one of great importance, concerning
the cruelties practised in the Irish Charter Schools. The House
had voted to these schools more than 600,000/. since the Union.
It appeared from the Report of the Conemiesioners lying on.the
table, that the greatest abuses existed in those institutions, and
the eulogies so often paid to those schools were refeted and ex-
posed to scorn ; they were grossly defective in their manage-
ment and required to be corrected. They. were .originally
founded in consequence of applications from the Archbishops,
Bishops, and many of the Laity to George If., to permit them
to establish such schools by subscriptions. Such a charter
was -granted in 1734, and within the first two years eight
schools were established. Large sums were subscribed and
given to the Company, and the amount of the rental was
now seven thousand founds a year. In 18011, a report was
made respecting• the schools, stating that the condition of the
schools was far from satisfactory, anti that the system was
radically vicious. The education conferred on them was infe-
rior to that obtained in the commonest schools of the country.
The visiting committee of this year consisted of many eminent
dignitaries of tire church, anti several distinguished laymen.
They reported that .the greatest enormities were practised in
some of the schools. The lion: Baronet read some extracts
from the report, stating in detail the cruelties exercised at Sligo
upon the unhappy boys. They were beat in the most inhuman
way, and were kept away from church on Sunday, in order that
they might do the master's work on Monday. In the schools of
Stradbally, the system of cruelty was the same. It Was 3
complete reign of terror; one boy had been flogged nine times
in one day, on account of missing a sum in long division. An.
other boy received 67 lashes, and others in the same propor-
tion. The boys were in a state of the grossest ignorancesse
Eighteen boys in the two head classes had never heard of St.
Paul. Only four could tell whether Europe was a man or e
place, and only two could name the four euarters of the
world. At Longford, the boys complained of want of feod.—
In the schools established by Bishop Pocock the master did
not teach, and there was no usher. In a common school in
the same town, (Newport) there were ninety.eight scholars
well `educated. Of these 31 were Protestants, who preferred
going to a Catholic school rather than go to the charter schools.
—in Clonmell there were only two children at school--
There were no books, and the master had 501. a-year from the
Society, with 25 acres of land." at 265. per acre, now worth 61.
an :acre. Not only were these cruelties permitted, but eves,
memorials addressed to the Board in Dublin, were not thought .
fit to, be presented by the Secretary, and only, tarsaoth,
because Several such memorials had- been presented before.
and were thought by the Secretary, in his wisdom, to he only
the production of forward boys. Good God, how long was the
public money to be expended for such purposes ? Bow did
it happen that the Secretary at Dublin, and' the Registars.
were friendly to the school-masters ? lie would inform the
House—it arose from the fact, that large presents were made
by the latter to the former. In the girls' schools, Many of
them were turned into the streets, owing to the improper
persons appointed to regulate them. Again, the necessary
reports from the catechists were withheld ; and out of Nos
hundred teed seeentl menthly reports, not ten were received :
no, not even one Sib& report ! Yet were these the Societies
patronized and ettpa*ted by the Government of this country.
No attempt at improvement was made, either by the Dublin
Committee or the different Parochial Clergy of theie thirty-
schools (for he only spoke of these Clergymen), but the salaries
went on with equal pace, with etuelty, bartearisne. and every
enormity. He wished the monsters who coinniitrid Such cruel-
ties to be handed over to the law, and make them feel that the,
poor helpless boys committed to their care were not to tea
I oppressed with continued impunity.. The iridignetion of the
House should overtake such, tyrants and monsters; and .with
this view it was, that he would submit the propriety of an
Address to his Majesty, expressing regret and indignation at
the cruelty practised upon the children in Chartered Schools iii
Ireland, and praying that the actors and abettors in such atro.,
cities should be prosecuted by the Laiv Officers in Ireland.__
The report on which he made this motion was given to both
Houses, under ciretunstances which called for every. ettention,
and if the labours of such a commission were not followed up.,
it would be in vain that similar commissions should be ;sealed.
He would, therefore, now merely put the motion into the bands
of the Chair, with every hope of its success.
Mr. GOULI3URN entirely. concurred with the sentiments of
detestation of the acts charged against the masters of the char-
ter schools, whether they were expressed in then*44on or lit
the speech of the Hon. Baronet. He was, therefore, relieved'
from the necessity of travelling through the painful details
which the Report contained. But he was not tree fliireedifficul-
ties arising as to the mode in which the' question ought to be
presented to the Hoese.• If the divisiox turned upoe the a/tee"
native, whether he was to agree to the propositiori• of the Ilan:
Baronet, or to concur with mischiefs which had been stated:
he would certainly choose the lesser evil, and take the link( al.. -.
ternative. But he submitted to the Rah,- Babies Whether the
ends of justice would not be safiefled by "ming the matter
to those to whom the law gave the power, to take what pro,
ceedings they might think fit; and if their conduct„ should no't
appear satisfactory, then Parliament might be called'uPpo to
interfere. An opportunity had not yet been offered: to the Go.
vernment to give effect to any views Which the pel*,4 of the
documents before them might have moggetted ;. nor of .401dite
communication .with parties flptu whom they must lo_ok'fOr.
the requieite information. In the general case, it was oz.v,Ki
..
dered to be the most expedient, when such rptesliOns oceets
red, to leave to the Executive the adoption of any Crimillal.
proceedings which, under the eircuouteeneee, it riii4lit'be"pp-
per to pursue ; and still more so, ought that course tolie Coli4y,:-
ed in the present instance, because the Onaieniselottergehea re.
Ferrell to a bulky appendix centaining a. great Mass' ouraits,
without which the -Report itself Could not
-tee Appreciated.' lie
admitted that the Honourable Baronet', bad: Made Ott e Case
sufficient to justify Parliament in agreeing, to: te reaelittiati ;
and if that was the general feeling, notwitheteptlieg Ks :as-
surance that the Government would brisg. the actor* in; the
transactions to punishment as far as they. were 'amenable to Oa
/aw, he would not rake his voice against h.—Allem', Yfeer 1"-^:
It was not far him to offer any opinion :004 Ow fltture syst4Ert.
which ought.to be adopted -: but as the'clefeetfaaf thesYstem
were clearly set before the lionse,•he .114 nii doubt that ttig N{...,
,commenclation of the ermlrriissionare would k . imcl-id4 tO by
the Noble Lord at time head of the ItiShGov.ei.-nrniOt all or-
Best opportunity ; "and that in such a riettnner'as ' locktially to
check the continuance of the system, and to preyeol.tlia.uta;
happy clOchren being thrown on the wortdwitholit Prete4ltioe`.
Mr. Se E" RIC hoped -that hilt Hon. M on. •iena'_woUld o. wi h.
draw his 'motion, as netwithettinding 'the =toy \eased) e Pe.
ports already on the table, poticelarly stie.Ferteenth Jteeeek,
expressly on 'the -Charter Schools,' nothing ha.il leithi!.4one,
peeing solely to the Went of some decisive WO op the pkt c, the
House. The Charter School system might, oe•tAketi aF atepe,
cirrien of the old exclusive -Proteetent 'system in Ireland: '. ,In :
that lightdli
only were they suppoeteoth'oy the Irish .1414 a,
cure; and the Imperial Parliament kirice the won; Thi. *holt .
mischief, in short, of these sehocli aNea 'Nan titsir exelitsiSe .
character, which rendered them mere trap% FGT. Catbolit child-
yen, and created the ebumee with which they. liaise ,a),W4s
abounded. Since the foUndetion.bf.these Cheater Sattarla they
had cost the country one million, and - sii,baeqUerttly tO2the
Union no less than six tiudthed thousand Ponds, ' To. Show
that the religious purposes of the. 5e1)0914 ertse OPt 4ttained,
it- Wag SufliCient. to mention. that itt one.scheol, none of-the
bile had ever heard of St. Paul ; two' only 1).14 heard
.or hie
Patriareh Job;
,itid with. respeet 'to, theirceogxaV*lo. VOlv---
ledge, scarcely any of them -knew'. WhOt et. ..t.:tuNtle was a
thing, a place, or an individttal ! H. ahint datherefote, eitsille..
proper occasion, move that histead:Of- ' tstig; the fdrther. snm
in the Estimates of this year; to the': titY, schooli, lt.ShOuld.
be voted to the GoVprrinient, -rot tlf6teperal, ohiFcts of edti-
Ca tiOn.--Mr.. tiorrotram explained:- . ' - , .. .
,:11r. Secretary PEEL denied that the inquiry into the Char-
knu

ter Schools of Ireland was forced on the Government. The
moment it was proposed he cordially concurred in the appoint-
:nest of the Commission, and the individuals he (Mr. Peel)
selected to be Members of it were chosen entirely on the
around of their peculiar fitness for the office. One, a Mr. Gla.e-
ferd, he had never seen, hut had understood that he was well
.qoalifiet4 for the duty. With respect to the Report, he thought,
however, that they were not now ripe to enter fully on the
subject ; but this he must say, that the Charter School system
would not admit of correction, and ought, as soon as pos-
tdate, to be extinguished altogether; nor had the Report
been laid on the table two days when directions were sent to
Ireland not to allow any more children to enter the schools._
Every means in short should be taken, consistent with a com-
panionate consideration for those already connected with the
foundations, to gradually abolish the gratuitous mode of edu.
cation pursued in them. If a public- proeecution was to be the
'teak of the disclosures of fraud, oppression, and cruelty made
by the Report, he would not trust himself to express an opi.
-gun now on the result of the Commission ; but it was not there-
fore to be sapposed that he did not feel the indignation anti
disgust which ,such.abuses were so well calculated to excite.
...At the same time he conceived that the persons charged. with
the offences he alluded to ought not to be sent to trial with
the stigma of a condemnatory resolution of the House of
Commons on their conduct. The Right Honourable Secre-
tary proceeded to read the address proposed by the Right
Honourable Baronet (Sir John Newport), and argued that as
it characterized the acts of individuals as " dreadful outrages,"
;oil.; adoption would prejudge the guilt of the accused. All ie
...wished in short was, in case any address should be voted, that
etit did not presume what it undertook to have determined. On
the whole, however, it appeared to him better, that as they had
not yet the evidence before them on which the Report was
foundede the flight_Hon. Baronet would- allow the entire sub-
ject to be at once referred to the Attorney-General for Ireland,
to let him decide in what cases prosecutions should be insti-
tuted.—(Hear, hear!)—lf that course were not likely to meet
she sense of the House, then we would. suggest-an' alteration in
the terms of the Address, to enable him to :support it.--( Hear!)
Sir F. BIIRDETT.—I merely rise to say, that I am perfectly
satiefied with the manner in which the Right Hon. Secretary
has treated this question.
Mr. F. LEWIS thought the House ought not hastily to de-
-..cide upon tire merits or demerits of these individuals. The
.allegations contained in the Report on which they were expected
to give a settled opinion at that moment, was founded on 30
documents, not one of which had been laid before the House.
Mr. J. I'. GitANT gave full credit to the feelings which
pa-opted the Hon. Member who had just sat down, to recoil)-
. mend the line of proceeding he did. But were he not a Mem-
ber of the Commission, he was certain he should come to a dif-
ferent decision. Next to the horror which he felt at the atrocities
detailed in the report, was his surprise that they had been so
leng allowed to be practised by the Government. Ile there-.
fore thought it incumbent on the House to manifest its opinion
of these abuses, by voting the present Address.
Mr. C. GRANT was disposed to support the motion of the
Right Hon. Baronet, if deprived of expressions of an exa.spe-
. rating cfi'ect. He had himself long foreseen that the system of
the Charter Schools of Ireland would sooner or later w rk out
its own condemnation with any. Government. The evils of that
eystecu were manifold—not the least of which was that it cre-
ated the objects it affected to relieve.
Mr. J. SMITH did not think the real criminals to be the
wretched half-starved schoolmasters. He was only at a loss to
know how the Committee could have gone on from week to
week in ignorance of the facts-brought ho light by the Commis-
sioners.
Mr. F. LEWIS explained that the Incorporated. Society
acted necees, ray on the information of their local Committees.
. Mr. GRATTAN contended that the negligence of the Board
occasioned all the delinquencies of inferior persons.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD concurred in what had fallen from
his Right -Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department ;
but if the Right Hon. Baronetpressed his motion he shook' be
ashamed of himself did he not support it.
Sir J. NE WPO.RT assented to tile alteration in the terms of
the Address suggested by the Right lion. Secretary (Mr-
Peel.) The Right Hon. Baronet sat down by moving that an
Address should be presented to his Majesty, praying ni rn to
direct the Law Officers of the Crown to institute Criminal
Proceedings against eueli of the Persons connected with the
Charter Schools of Ireland as should be found amenable to law.
The Question was then put, and the Address agreed to-with-
out a division.
PUKE OF CUMBF,II LANDS. ANNUITY.
The CHA.NCELOR- of the EXCHEQUER rose to request
that his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade
Would consent to postpone his motion for leave to bring in a
Bill on the subject of the Corn Trade, of which notice on the
paper, untitafter the report on the Duke of Cumberland's An-
nuity Bill, hail been brought up.
Mr. lIUSKISSON said that he would willingly accede to
the propOsition of his Right non. Colleague.
Mr. BROUGHAM saw no reason for the postponement of
the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion.. The Cumberland busi-
_nc;ss was, in his opinion, infinitely less, important than that
which it was l'iroposeel it should:supersede. Was there tiny
thing so pressing in the matter? Was the whole country be-
e:eging doors on the subject? -Were they so impatient
n an hour's delay ? Could not the Right Hon. Gentleman
ous. more right to pass, and without bringing up the
?—(" No.")
CANNING rose to protest against the course pursued
by the lion. and Learned Member of raising an argument on a
question merely.about the arrangement of business.—(Crier of
itteerl'l) Thug was no disposition on the part of Government
to press the boeinesS forward with unwarrantable haste—in fact,
it had been pa:gleaned-night after night, to suit the convenience I
of Gentlemen of:the other side of the House. He believed, in-
deed, Vito it would be Matter of convenience to sonic Gentle-
men oppOsite.tliat.therneaeure .should be brought forward to-
BROUGHAM said,. that he had not accused Ministers
of an intention to prass, the measure on. lie objected only to
tire uringing on of, such a job, at the hour of eleven. He
• thohylit the torah tea:ll4.o.th: the' discussion of the measure._
t"
.'he CILINCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he
would MeV. the Order. of the Day, and the Hon. and Learned
.Stlember might: adopt what course he thought fit.—(Cries of—
" Go oth"t---The Gendenian then moved the Or-
der dine Day_ for the bringing up of the report on, the Bill.- •
Thehemeetioh having been put,
Mr. niROUGH4I'II again objected to the bringing forward.
of +frc nieestire at -so late inn hour. (Murmurs.) lie knew well
that the Majority sr he House wishedto have the questdon dist.
posed of ae sooiaaspoesible—they thought that the less that-was
eaid about it the better. The gentlemen oppositeewanted an
opportunity-ofoierwheirning hint and iris friends with ran-ahem-
ae he and his friend. overwhelmed them with argument. . (A
laugh.) That was tbe way in which the balance
..of exchange
stood between them.—(" Go on.") •
The question was then again put, and Carried in the afiinna-
tine.
On 'the questiob tiait the report be brought up_ h.. ~r. WA FIRE' took thihtopportunity, having been preveotiii
by illness from attending in hie place before, of expressing his
decided disapprobation of the -proposed grant,- and move.ci,.as
su ainendment to.the motion before the-House, that the report
• received this day -six ineenths.
Mr. BROUGHAM staid. he had heard a report, that in cer-
tain alteratiOns to be-Matte to tire palace of- Buckingham-bouse,
itwas intended to div#,e. or encroach upon, the rights and en,
joyments of which thtdpublic had hitherto beep in possession
the Green Park. He had `heard also, and front such alsourec;
as induced, hbn to belicvo it, that it was intended to make a
road through tire Green Park, instead Of that at present leading
no Constitutien-hill, and that the. intervening space:was to be
added to the gardens of Buckinghana-kouse. He took this op-
, portunity of esking the Right lion. the Chancellor of ,the Ex-
chequer, whether 'these proposed'alterations were really to be
carried into effect? .
Tire CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad to
- have an opportunity of replying to the Hon. Gentleman's
genet on in so full a House as the present.. He could assure the
Hen. Gentleman, that there. was pot, Log ever had been, the
remotest intentioa of encroaching upon, the Greens Park. He
added, that it had been his wish and intention enintroduce into
the ealere of the day euitie regulauoria respecting
~the Icing's
liceleehold at Buchieghata-house. .
The House then divided, *hen the numbers were-
- For the Aen44:i...mt - • '-• . 60
rn
10'6
Againat • • - - .
- --eh*

.ajority
On our re-acbuis4op into the M use, yre found Mr.
BROUGHAM on his, legs. Ile was proposing that the dis.
cussion on the neat stage, of this bill should commence at an
early hour to-morrow, tivc„o'clock for example, in which case
the division might be over he ;,tee gx. In alluding to the defeat
which his opposition to this notion had sustained to-night, he
said that he should:not on 'dist account the less—but rather the_
more—cot-id:me his' Own effortii and excite those of his friends in
the sane cause. Ile recommended all gentlemen whowere pre-
. Sent, and who thought wilt to renew their,opposition in
every stage of the bil: ; and he besought them to use their several
influences 11th all Who now happena.l to be absent. He did not
c.orisidr.r,tl);: present defeat' as any r0.7.50n for being dispirited, for
be remined them, that on the forwcr ,xcasion, when thiS obnox,
i our; mes.sUre (now a thousand tittles more objectionable, because
then tt was openly proposed, and now it was insidiously at-
tempted to be carried by a side-wind) was broUglit forward it bad
a beep .unsticessflily opposed tide after tirne, and had yet been
thrown'out in its very :last stage. He trusted, therefore, that
Ilan. Gentlemen who ttUtight with hit on this subject would.
not he discouraged by what had hitherto taken place (and which
,he did not hesitate to stsy was neither creditable to the House