The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-21 00:00:00

REFORM BILL.

The adjourned debate upon the Reform Bill was then
resumed.

Mr. STRUTT rose—He should be unworthy of the
station in which he was placed if he hesitated to express
his opinion. Although the Bill might fill somewhat
short of all that the most strenuous friends of Reform might
wish. vet it contained so much of that which was desirable
and necessary to form a good Government, that he hailed
it with gratification.—(Cheers.) The question was whe-
ther the Members of that House were to be returned
by the unanimous voice of the people, or whether
the majority were to be composed of borough nominees ?
--(Hear, hear. ) They might if they pleased call a new
representation a virtual representation ; they, might, if they
pleased, attempt to deceive themselves, but the time was
now gone by when they could deceive and delude the
public.—(Cheers.) He meant to cast no reflections
on those who opposed the Bill, or who had created discus-
sions which partook of a personal character, for so far was
he from thinking it discreditable to sit for a rotten borough,
under the present system, that whenever a Member so
returned performed his duty faithfully he was entitled to
the gratitude of the public.—(Hear, hear.) But shat
security had the public that the man who purchased his
seat in that House would not neglect the interests of that
public, of which he was falsely called the representative ?
It might be said that those large towns to which Members
were to he given, if not directly represented were virtually
so, for that Members who bad a local knowledge of
those places would advocate their interests. But he
objected to leaving the interests of great towns to
Members of other places, who merely chanced to be able
to support their interests. It surely was not unreasonable
that all large towns should have representatives of
their own—(Hear, hear)—who should be responsible
to their constituents. It had been said, that by the
Reform Bill men of talent would not get into the
House, and that property would not be repre-
sented. Ile denied both those propositions. There
never was a more unfounded proposition than that
men of great talent would be excluded from the
House for the people knew their interests well, and knew
also that to forward those interests the surest mode would
be by electing men of talent. Why should the proprietors
of close boroughs arrogate to themselves the exclusive
power of selecting men of talent for the House.
The other argument to which he had alluded, as being
used against the proposed plan of Reform was, that pro-
perty would not be properly represented in that House.
He was not quite sure that he quite understood that ar-
gument. Was it mean*, or would it be contended, that
the mere possession of property was to secure parties
the privilege of having a share in the representation, or
was it that the voter was to exercise his power according
to the will of any man who had property. The voter, in
his opinion, ought to be protected in the fair discharge of
his duty. A challenge had been thrown out from the Oppo-
sition side, to any party to make out improprieties
in the present system. That argument had been par-
ticularly used by the Hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Pem-
berton), who contended that the present system worked
well, and that it was as near perfection as
any human work could be. With deference to that Hon.
Gentleman, he might contend that this was one of the
principal points in dispute, and that the present Bill had
been brought forward for the purpose of putting
an end to misgovernment. One further topic
more he must advert to, because he thought it
im-
mediately connected with the question before the
House, and that very little attention bad hitherto
been paid to it. It must be acknowledged to be a most
important part of the duty of all legislation to give the
public proper means of education. Now, on this
point the House had, most undoubtedly, invariably
neglected to adopt any measures for the education of the
people. Nay,it had done all it possibly could to prevent them
enjoying those means of political knowledge which would
have keen within their reach,by imposing enormous duties on
Newspapers, fur the avowed purpose of keeping them
from the sight of the lower and middle classes of so-
ciety. And now, when it was proposed by this
measure to give some part of the legislation into their
hands, the other side of the House turned round
on them immediately, and said they were not fit to
receive such a boon, because they were so ignorant.
By this means the Anti-Reformers were making their own
misdeeds the trains of retaining that -power which they
now held. For his part, he believed the people were
fully competent to exercise those rights which were to be
given them by this Bill. If even they were not, he felt
confident if they were only to he shewn that they possessed
some share in the Government of the country, and that
public measures of importance were waiting their
decision, they would set manfully to work and
conquer every difficulty. But as long as seats were
to be purchased, or had a nomination tenure, it mattered
not how ignorant the people were. If they voted for those
who were over them, well and good. If they resisted, they
were put put down by the strong anti of the law.—
It had also been said that if political power were:

conferred upon the people, they would give
destruction c,f the two other branches of the

ture. This argument was not new ; it I
stated lit tie House in the year 1793, in La
motion for Reform, and the answer given

Mr. F.ix was, that if the King and —the
Lords were not useful and necessary brancl
Legislature, then they sLould Le dismissed and

for the people were nit made for them, bu
the petiole ; but if they were u,eful, then

of Cnumi:ths, thus constituted, would preserve an
both. The Hon. Member concluded by saying hi
that the power now offered to the people by ti
Bill would he exercised by them with discretion.
Mr. BARING WALL said, there bad been
mont aired in favour of the Bill per se. The

opposite were called upon to support the Go'
and therefore to support the B:II. Neither, hou
supported because it was good, but because no hi
was offered. --(Cheers. ) The Government app
frightened with their own measure. They had
as a principle, that population and property
represented; and then denied representatives to C.
_ _

gave them to Marylebone. lie did not think the Bil;
a final settlement, and he could not believe that
who looked at the returns on the table could for
meat suppose that it would be a final settlement.

Lord said he wanted it only to be final as lu
people were saestied; but how long was that to
what period were they to re•judge this Bill? Tb
of stability and the evils of change had not been e
duel: upon. The Noble Lard must not c
a new C nstitution, but a ne.v moral world for
in. He must make new interests new habits,

to

itifluences. The Government ought to conciliate the"
ferent conflicting interests of the country; it had 0 e
excited and agitated the public.—(Cheers.) It WO
great evil that the measure should be carried against
feelings of the property of the country.--(A laugh.) 0;
Government had separated itself from all the flout! ei
Reformers, who wire in consequence obliged to t"rf
themselves itro the arms of the Tories. After the k
was passed, the Government wool I be embarrass
is present friends. It was painful to make personal t
servations, but as it had been the fashion to analYrcqt,
Opposition, he might analyze the majority. He
therefore, be allowed to say, that, in analyzing the
rite, round many gentlemen who had a personal 'O4
rest in passing ti e Bill. Among those gentlemea.,o
many Dissent rs, and he might ref .r to them 101:Alet
any imput itiun of illiberality, for he had always var'ol;
Catholic em incipation and the repeal of the Te'tort
Corporation Acts. Among the Members opposite
also several gcnilemen holding office, whose interest 'xer
bound up with the continuance of the Ministers in r
and they had an interest in supporting them. !teii
would balance the boreughmon.ers, as they were liter
on the opposite side of tar, e against the dioe
ard
and the dependents on the Government on the other' or
then Le thought the majority would not tower so lirjjelt
ficently shove the minority in independence as it at PI pill
appeared to do. The cry out of doors was, that 0154 it
would put an end to the Aristocracy ; lint, in fa°c,
would ere .te an Oligarchy, and give a legal existe°,ot,
the very body which it was said to be the wish to rra,oi
'The present advantage of the Aristocracy wa.i, that it
not conOned to any Cass, nor limited ; wealth, talent',
hties, all made individuals members of the Aristorttrii,.
He could have no hope of influencing the 1101°ite
of that House; he wished, therthre, to ad tress blie!
self to the people out of doors. When they °eft
of the influence and corruption of the borough
tent, the people s erred to forget that they theinsei,i
were the chief supporters of it. 'I he constituents live
the Customs and the Excise ; yes, the pure uncomr pf
ing middle classes were those who profited by this car,ripti
tion. The Members of Parliament and some of the ''bti
tocracy might now and then make a fortune ; but if t
examined the list or the placetnen and men who had
to high office during the last century, they would find
all sprung from the middle classes, and not men of at. ;ti
cratic blood. Let the House look at the three enilr
individuals who in our time had been or now were u
Chancellors. 'They had all sprung front the peoples t'
Hon. Member also referred to a list of the Attortaoe;,

Generals during the last fifty y.ars to show that not
one of them had b:en a meinuer of the aristocracy.
the House look again at the church. The majority
highest situations were filled by men sprung bog'
middle classes. Much had been sail in the course °'
debates about the number of great- names which Ole
I.e found as the supporters of the Bill ; and, among °tli(
it was observed, that bad Mr. Canning lived, be,
would have seen the necessity of giving way Wi,l
altered circumstances of the time. In his (Mr. IS
~
opinion, Canning would have seen additional ft:a,'

to persevere in his oriainal principles; and he magi
serve, it was much easier to say that Mr. Canning
have been a convert to the new light, than to believeij
(Hear, bear.) How did the authorities in other o'9
sand in favour of the Bill? He would say that they/.writer in favour of the Bill ti as the Editor of the ,
and that the best speaker ire support of it had bead
Member for Caine (Mr. Macauley), who had appli&O
arguments solely to the effects whieh the measure .
likely to produce in the event of its passing into et ea'
The only authority, strictly speaking, in favour etd
change, among those who professed to be well vell
the history of the Constitution, was the Hon. and Leldo
Metnb..r for Knaresberaugh (S r Lints Mackintosh)) od
it was well known to every one in that House, ‘c,/
h it.
(Hear, voted for either side if circumstances required 01:40
(Hear, bear, and a laugh.) Looking to others ,)
were not Members of that House, he fund that
Constitutional writer (Mr. Hallam) the most einioo
man in England iu that peculiar branch of liters!,
decidedly oppo-ed to the Bill—( Hear, hear)--41/
Mr. Polgrave, the most distinguished antiquarian, bloV
pressed, in a manner strong but peculiar, his sense "e#,)
danger with w..icir it threatened us.—(Hear,
Looking, indeed, at the Bill itself, and the cireuinst3Al
under which they were called on to consent to such 3
constitutional change, he must say that it was the WV
leap in the dark ever token by the people of any
of which history hears record.—(Cheers.) After ()Wool
ing that the liberal and tolightened of other coup 01
viewed the Bill with as much apprehension as those 0110)
some class in this country, the Hon. Member said he
converstd with many Americans, and they all, inclo7
that distinguished man, whose retirement from a (05,
=tie situation was so great a loss to his country
Washington Irving,) agreed in considering that the me.)
now before the House would be injurious to the liberbv
England.
Mr. VILLIERS (Member fur Saltssh) said there °lli
one cr two parts of the Bill to which he felt WO" It
ante his objections, although he was quite prernd,
support the principles on which the measure was fa., re
In the first place, he objected to the wording of the 110 Y
amble, in which it was declared to be " expedient to
~of
effectual measures for correcting divers abuses that
IV
long prevailed in the choice of Members to serve in
liament." Now, he doubted very much the proprietfoia
adopting language like this, which went to convey the if
pression that Parliament had before been illegally andcyl
properly constituted, and that they had, therefore, ena tlit
laws not entitled to the respect or obedience 01,10,
people.--(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Already there
.7;,,
outcries against the laws—already there was a digro.
Con to change all existing institutions, and to make.i
pediency a substitute for all that time had sanetsoptof
and experience proved to be necessary; and were
now, by their own act, to give a sanction and authorp/o
those who proposed to question the legality of all cooled
and the force of all legislative enactments ?—(Hear, be be
If the peop'e were to he stirred up by inflammatorYos
rangues, and the military appealed to as arbiters bet
them and the Legislature, then he was willing to bravehisol)-
danger rather than to submit to the consequences 111)0
must result from such a dictation.—(Hear, hear.) tio
trusted, however, although be made these objections to ths
preamble, he would not be considered an opponent Os,
greater part of the clauses, of which he cordially aPPr.°OO
—(Hear, and laughter.) He must say, however, he 01')
to the clause for dividing the counties. He was Dolt
afraid that the Members for the divided counties w°o)
like those of Manchester and Birmingham, be too toes
under democratic influence, while, at the same
their votes would be peculiarly mischievous, beeauselio
approbation to any measure would be cited as a prooti; o
h was supported by the landed interest. This Onlidhe
the case in some instances, while in others they wen id,
come the mere nominees of the aristocracy, and L11211_04,
treated in the same manner by the Press as it notetn,p)
the representatives for the close boroughs.--(Hear,
Fortunately this was not the only legislative boll,' i hire
country.—( Hear, hear.) There was another before
these questions would he fully considered.—(Cheere4.l
Mr. LABOUCHERE, after remarking on the :foe
rent inconsistency between the speech of the Hon•
bee who preceded him, and the vote he intended Ws; OA
on the Bill, observed, that although he was not so:00
to hope to say anything new on the subject, yet 11 opt?
not allow that stage to pass without recording bis a'o9o:,
nation of the measure then before the House. TPen
Member for Weymouth (Mr. B. Wall) had made .e
speech, which was the more valuable, because he WI bit
it spoke that Hon. Member's real eonvictionedi
there was this fallacy in it, and in the speeches 01.000
Members of that side of the House, that they did WA

Govei

however/
10 betteril
red
aPra a,
had laid
tA

rty sbc
:o Chet'

Bill 0
that an;

I for one
nt.
long 0
It to 1.0.,

The bl
en sufE

of only

for it to °`
iiti, and °JI
.liliate the
it had °I
It gi°
agaitotil
laugh.), r
the aio°,e,

i ged to OP
After the,'
nbarrasio
personal
o analyze.,

He I"
tin the' .'
personal 1!
ntlernen.l

them W_";
rAys Val`
the the Te,t
opposite:,
interes'_,

ter; in el

t hem•
y were
the (lit'

tlieotheiel;
ver SO fnifept

s it at
that tbis
Lt, in fa°e,'lo
ails
he xcic:tretdo.
acco,
1,, that it ‘
h, taleilti,;,

Arista.
the IA
ad ,ress

n they t'
borough
ey tbetus
uents live

uncomi

y this cur,'
le of the
%
:!; but if
who had!
°old fin!

men of
:twee el

ow were
peop!e.
tne Atto
that not'

locraCy•
°f
aijority
td
log itonlmy
course f
vhich
among ot
bar
ved, he, ty
way ttii,ll'
(Mc. ‘S
litional re di
he mot
.d
anuing
o believe
other tyro"
that the
of the .1t ,10
had been, 1,0
ad applieuii
measure
is into aot
favour 0, 0
veil vole'
. and Leq,

sufficient allowances for the situation in which the Govern
flt was placed at the time they took office. He was
toe of those who avowed himself the advocate of a gra-
dual but effectual Reform • but from the moment the
ellington administration resigned, and the leader of that
:Ministry in the House of Commons declared they did so
those
they could not propose a Reform ; nor yet resist
who did—from that moment it was plain that the
oirmttunity of a gradual change was gone by, and he ap-
Ph aaried the Government for the prod, nt boldness" they
ad displayed in the isiswhich had presented itself.—
(tllll ear hear.) He wascr not w
one of these who believed in
tr,,''''lcyon days which were to follow the passing of the
". 00 the contrary, he knew that a spirit of discon-
lerlt :fna: abroad, and that tbe contest between the huhu-
11,"i'gthtee.discontented, end all who had amythirtg to lose,
Tic!, "'Lc, in spite of every prtc oitiou.—(Checris..)
,-1 much, however, lie was firmly oiv of, teat
Ve',4attle, if the Bill was passed, would be fought on
ata-nY different ground, and under very different circum-
G e.fs* He was one of those who prized the inixe I
prepared
of Kin;, Lords, and C =mons, and was
fie e" to stand by or fall with it. He was grate-
'lsnerefore, to the Ministry which had the honesty and
f° nes' to look the difficu'ties of the country fairly in the
thtee; and he was confident, if the struggle carve, that
as y would have with them all the intelligence, and power,
the':°r"l Opinions of the people; and, if he knew any-
theEngland, lie was revolution that n such a crisis all
be (n'iogies drawn from the of France would
to Xi" coe
Bill, mpletely to fail. He gave his cordial support
prafnfi'lE' protested ) against the destruction of the Cor-
ns, to whom the country owed the expulsion of the
the'2,B, the establishment of the Revolution, and almost
theil-,l4de of the liberty it possessed. Of the details of
it hhe would say nothing, because he was convinced,
oth-ePassed, that they would soon be called on to examine
,sr producing still more alarming changes.—(Hear.)
ionrionel MABERLY, after a slight examination of
dole of the details of the Bill, contended that it was sled-
risiaY., an Aristocratic measure, and that those who exa-
ien e" it attentively would find that it gave property an
p ,nence with regard to numbers, which it did not before
to°B,,:ses• Let the House look to the changes made in the
11.,--71 representation. At the present moment there
tie, 95 county Members in 513 ; when the Bill passed
tif-ete would be 475 Members in ail for England, of whom
e°llntY Members would be 157. In addition to th'e,
hte. abolition of the system of out voters would render the
emes°oB still more agricultural, while the more objection-
tik Measure—the giving the franchise in counties to te.•
ts,„,ts at will—would place a large portion of the const!-)
ora-"tcY, under the controul of their landlords. It was said
ehalttle Bill ought not to pass because it interfered with
, only
esertered rights. Theliorough representation wag, how-
a usage ; and they had as much right to pro-
fe.'e the alteration of it as the Honourable Member
Staffordslii,e bad to propose the alteration of the
1 °f
race
D over. But it had been said that the mea-
vvould not be final. If by that expression was
I i7int that there might be some loop-hole which it would
Le
tiesneeesr its -
all' to amend at a future periodie admd it;
were meant that the Bill would, notl haveitte a cer-
;_ns degree of duration, that it would not last as long as it
4 feund consonant to the habits and feelings of the
"nntrY, then he denied the position, and asserted that the
,brzlea'nce would be permanent and final. While the Bill
en.'" in consonance with the feelings of the people, he
t'uld see no ground for the apprehension of the Hon. and
earned Member for Thetford, that constitutions would
streceeil ens another with the frightful rapidity which
le
Za". Member '• witneesed
asked if tbe in France dßeform Bill was
the R
nevolotutionan expert
Ment.
His (Mr. Maberly's) answer was, that if it were
4.114 to ,
passed that would be an experiment, and a most
lui one.—(Hear, hear, bear.) It had also been con-
tenwha-ed that no motive hail been assigned for the Bill.
Y, the motive had been repeated usque ad nauseam.
, e„ Bill was introduced because the House had lost the
ellndenee of the people, which confidence the Bill was
okealated to regain. What did the people want? A
Lera,ctieal Reform, which should do away with the sale of
in should do away with the unconstitutional
1104-t,l,e°ce--wbich should secure that a Member of that
ja,,,-"e should have at least some constituents. By‘alopt.
P,Lthe Bill they would have an independent House of
I.Tlll°Ta'• Believing that such would be the case—be-
tecN that the House, as constituted by the Bill, would
Stlo,7°,4aPotred of men of high spirit, men of fortune,
IteCenrit'bui and character (for such would always be Se-
th,
tiY the people), he conceived that, in supporting.
and, i°l,--snin` he was supporting the liberties of his country,
new - `"e words of Chatham, infusing into her veins a
mrPortion of health and youth.
flight 4- TREVOR prayed God to grant that his fears
his Prove vain, but he could not conceal from the House
their,Prehensions that the greatest evils would ultimately
ht it froth the adoption of the measure. When he looked
sot hat the history of this and other countries,
.he could
elia
husking where was the necessity of this fearful
eitopile i the Constitution ? Why risk so dangerous an
th;,,,nlent? What more severe censure could be cast on
kr VII than the great defect implied by the Hon. Member
131iddlesex in moving that the colotsies should have re-
ja*Zentatives Allusions, which he had beard with asto-
tll,—lneot, had been made by the supporters of the Bill, to
IVitinrOloiens of men celebrated in the history of the
country.
ark reference to one of those celebrated individuals, Mr.
vesfte,.: he was convinced, that if that great man were to
ceuerr,,ear among them, he would view with dismay the
be.tiLtitiahetYere pursuing, and would exclaim, " Quos
!risk perdere, prius dementat." In endeavouring to
nnsehi f perfect which , was already so good, the greatest
tack, ees might be occasioned. Notwithstanding the at-
hllo,: °I a licentious Press, and the shouts of the mob, he
114 "ili continue to do what he felt to be his duty. He
to it be in error—might God grant that it should prove
taint
h
must say that he should look upon the passing
14 'DOI as the dawning of the downfall of one of the
bee nations of the world.
ile. LONG WELLESLEY entertained the greatest
Ltliteet fur the constitutional opinions of the Hon. and
fill!d Gentleman opposite, who had last night opposed
/10, II; and therefore regretted extremely to hear that
fite..,o4 Learned Gentleman say that it would be de-
soh eclve
of the best interests of the country. For himself,
550,,,5t5"1n1Y would not give the Bill his humble and feeble
eiprt if he thought it. in any way trenched on the prin-
tiaeer, of the Constitution. So far, however, from con-
"ineeirneg, it any innovation on the Constitution, be most
b,'Y thought it was a renovation of the Constitution.
ass " not been denied by the opposers of the Bill, that it
Ptihilt Maxine of policy that the House ought to regard the
°Pinion of a measure with favourable eyes. Tire
°Pinel°„ll sva,, what was the ext,nt and nature of public
deis,,,l"" on the present subject, and how was that opinion
ti(4l;ll,Btrated? To him it was clear that at the late elec-
or th."e,,,Public opinion was pronounced decidedly in favour
%el; 'Jill. He did not, however, place his support to
h
tee °n that sole footing. All history justified the
-..4t tiplc of the measure. Adverting to the supposition
Pose ~°°. Members came pledged to that Rouse to sup-
ifno
„ ,-"111 he exposed the absurdity of supposing that
atitc"'able men would receive the commands of their con-
kltire.t/ts to advocate a measure to which they were reaby.
fro -,1: Much exasperation had arisen in the public mind
i!igtilrh"."! Procrastination of the measure.. That was a reel-
sdile :tiwever, which would subside, although it was imposo-
tt "at the people should not feel mistrust from somedid
I'4 the
which had been made on the subject. Ile it
ateot. "eve that the Bill was calculated to make an undue
,lectielna to the aristocracy. On the contrary, his
ob-
Was that it gave an undue support to those who
Ile il ionising forwards to the honours of the aristocracy.
land "aught the great difference between the people of Eng-
cool:l4lthe people of all other countries was that the former
any „e°,Jay a greater portion of democratic liberty than '
the 6to"er, without infringing on the aristocratical part of
ia. nstitution. By taking from the oligarchy and add-
-0116C,. the democracy, they would merely enlarge the basis
posed°llt the aristocracy rested. Adverting to the pro-
atsmid_tvision of counties, he admitted that it would be
pion d With great inconveniences; and that, in his opi-
-414r it Would have been better had the whole of the free-
Aria of a county been allowed to choose the four or the
ennertioYpnliesita:dofi
eniei "'hers for that county. He. also objected to the
then theoverseers of the poor in the-manner
Mtßill. He strongly censured the
pubii Pt, that were made in various uarters to decry
Mthesellien• Ile had never decried thew. He had lived
that ir.`"ern---with men in high situations—and he knew
Plit,C Iva, a base delusion on the people to tell them that
lead c Men could be found in any part of the world so
viitiy.
atuo do their duty in so disinterested a manner, and
inert
of entire a sacrifice of their own interests, as the public
to euebEngland. He had never, therefore, been a party
Le ob.; ad captandum statements. Reverting to the Bill,
tien thvrved that wht n be brought his mind to the convice
that „ at Reform was necessary, it was with the addition
hati rellteform should proceed on the principles which
c,i.sp'k advocated by the men who had been best tic-
been'!
oe:troldvintehed th
b eypiee of the C. It was
" ground that bencipl supported .thisonstitution ad
Bill, which h
mirc
his Noble Friend.
tin • PEREGRINE COURTENAY considered the
era delusion• He believed that bribery would be in-
cased •
she ' and that by the alteration in the constitution of
branchlls of 'Comons, the existence a the other two
es of the Le mgislature would be compromised. Be

;Intoslip 114
House, o°/
Tquile • d
otheri tei
nil that 8
..41
most 60"

of lii

hear)--'r,
avian, had
s sense of tr,l
Bear, Ijeg
.:ireuinstap
o such a jos
is the Iff
f any &Orr
After obse
her country
oft
14 close )
I. said he ,t 4
ail, inchnity
ruin a dlr.
country (4,
it the ine
the liberve6

repeated the Bill was a delusion; for he was convinced it
would not remove any one of the grievances under which
the people I ibatired, or any one of the evils of which they
complained. Be would vote against the Bill, because he
was satisfied with the existing institutions, and because he

considered no practical benefit, but, on the contrary, in-

finite evil would result from the measure.
Mr. MACAULEY, after observing that be felt great
difficulty in speaking upon a subject so completely ex-
hausted, proceeded to contend, in opposition to the asser-
tion of the Hon Member who last addressed the House,
that the Bill was not a delusion ; and the Ministers, and
those who supported them, had never held out hopes 0 the
public of the possibility that this measure would remove
all their grievances. The Reform 8,1 l was intended as an
alterative, not as a specific.—(Hear.) It wru!d certainly
produce no miraculous of fects.for the moment, hut it would
undoubtedly be the parent of many good measures.—
eers.) It never had been asserted by Government that
this Bill would make the people rich and happy ; but it
would afford them protecti.in in becoming rich and
happy ; and this was all which any legislative measure,
or any cede of laws, could do. He did not expect that
the 811 would now and at once relieve the nation from
all its embarrassments ; but he would boldly assert,
that if the Bill lad been passed fifteen years ago
we should at present ba in a much more prosperous
condition.—(Hear.) The one great and immediate benefit
resulting from the measnre would be a Reform in the con-
stitution of the House of Commons, from which they might
anticipate the preservation of peace, the maintenance of
order, the restoration of confidence, the increase of nation a
prosperity, the destruction of monopolies, the reduction of
many Lurthens, which now pressed upon the community,
and the dicrieution of those which it was necessary to
maintain in a more equitable manner, and after such a
fashion as that they should weigh as lightly as possible

upon the lower classes.—(Hear.) No act o(a Legislature
could ba expected to he fraught with greater or more im-
portint results; no Administration could, except in the

pure spirit of quackery, promise more for any meastt:e.
(Hear, and laughter, from the Opposition.) lie contended
that the arguments of an Hon. and Learned Member, who
spoke upon the question last night, and who contended
that the 101 electors would return none but mob orators

or persons of powerful local connections, were founded upon
mere theory ; and were, in fact, contradicted by experience.
In truth, all the arguments of the Hon. Members opposite,
respecting the effects which would be pro luced by the
change in the constituent body, were founded upon theory ;
or rather, he should say, upon assertion.—(Hear.) AI
experience was upon his side. Look (said he) to Leicester ;
look to Nottingham, in which there was a right of voting
by scot and lot. Did those places return demagogues, or
mob orators, or persons of extensive local connections?
Quite the contrary. Again. Look to London; see the
men it bad selected for its representatives.—(Loud laughter,
and hear, hear.) Look to 'Westminster and Southwark;
who were the men those places had returned? And
what reason was there for concluding that the democra-
tical principle would be more strong in any of the
101. constituencies, than in Westminster and South-
wark ? (ILar, hear.) Well, then, who were the men
returned by Westminster and Southwark? First, there
were the illustrious Fox, Sheridln,Tierney, Sir S. Romilly,
than whom he begged to remark, there never yet was a
man hss of a mob orator ; he loved the people—he served
the people—but he never canvassed the people. He was
as averse to the display con,equent upon soliciting their
suffrages as a Coriolanus.—( Hear, bear.) He believed
he was perfectly right in this assertion. He did not think
Sir Samuel Romilly ever once appeared upon the hustings
until he was elected ; and even then he came forward to
return thanks with infinite reluctance.—(Hear, hear.)
He denied that rejecting the Bill at this moment would
he attended with less danger than it would have been
some months ago. He maintained there had been no
reaction ; the people were at this moment as zealous in
support of the Ministry, and as eager for the Bill,
as they ever were at any period since its introduction.
The Bill, with a few exceptions, had no opponents,
except those who hated Reform, because it would re-
move abuses, and those who hated Reform because it
would avert anarchy. The Honourable Member then
proceeded to give an account of the manner in
which the Reform Bill affected the public mind in England.
lie observed .that the nation, hiving clearly expressed
its sentiments, rested in the calm and satisfied confidence
that the expression of those sentiments would be attended
with their legitimate effects, and that their favourite mea-
sure would be attended with the most perfect success; but

soon the scene changed. General Gascoigne's motion was
carried, the people were called upon for a fresh exertion,
and onf e more they struggled manfully, and by one com.
bitted effort placed the Bill as they thought, and justly
thought, in perfect security; and having accomplished that
object they retired to their usual repose. They were now,
then, as previous to the deb ite on General Gascoigne's mo-
tion, calmly awaiting the decision of Parliament, and no
inference would be less just than to conclude that because
they were nut now so much excited as at the former period,
because they were not now under the influence of that feeling
which must of necessity be transient, that, therefore, they
had become indifferent—that a re-action had taken place,
because the people (lid not go abroad lighting bonfires, or
remain at home illuminating their' houses. Those who
maintained that a reaction had taken place only proved
themselves grossly ignorant of the crisis in which they
were called upon to act. There was not an opinion
arising eut of that supposed reaction which was not
founded in error ; those who held and advocated such
opinions proceeded upon the assumption that the feeling
which led the people of England to support the Reform
Bill, and, previous to its introduction, to demand a change
in the representation of the people, had arisen suddenly,
and would as suddenly vanish and leave no trace behind,
and every thing they saw led them to expect the dis •
appearance they so earnestly hoped for and so impatiently
expected ; but they reminded him of the man described by
Horace, whe, standing by the side of the river, expected
that it would flow past while he waited, unconscious that it
had flowed from time immemorial, and would continue to
flow, for the fountain whence it proceeded was inex-
haustible :—so it was with the public sentiment which sus-
tained and supported the leading Reformers of England.—
(Cheers.) The excitement which the Reform Bill pro-
duced did not arise from any fLeting or temporary
causes—it was the growing effect of that which was deep
seated in the heart of every man in England. Did any
rational and impartial man imagine that any single motion
in that House, or any event which occurred, or any
series of events, in the capital of a neighbouring country
could awaken such a feeling as that which at the present
moment animated the public mind of Britain—could any
such circumstances produce such a change in the feelings
of the people of this country as to alienate them from the
ancient institutions? It was not true, but if true, the fact
would be anything but consolatory. What hope could
there be of the stability of Government in any country
where the mind of the people could be made to undergo
such a change through causes so comparatively insig-
nificant? What! a motion in that House or a re-
volution in any nation in Europe estrange the people of
England from that which anteriorly they had held
to be most sacred and venerable ?—the supposition
was preposterous. The sentiment of Reform couid
be traced back to a period much more remote. For the
last seventeen years it had occupied a large space in the
public eye—its commencement could be seeo at a period
much earlier. During the first thirty years of the reign
of George 111. it could be seen extensively and powerfully
at work, supported, as it was, by the authority of two great
leaders of party in that House, backed and sustained as
they were by very respectable minorities. Then came the
French Revolution, and upon that followed the war—the
long and expensive war—which, followed upon that,
threw bark the question for many many years; but,
thrown back, it was not utterly destroyed ; suspended it
alight have been for a time, but the people never lost sight
of their favourite object. At length peace came, and with
peace came that leisure and absence of excitement, which
proved favourable to a c dm and dispassionate consideration
of a question of the highest moment to the interests of the
British people. And then distress came, and with it came
also a suspicion of unfaithful stewardship and unwise legis_
lotion ; and then the Reform question became an object
of deep and anxious attention ; but then the Catholic ques-
tion stood in its way —the Reform question was, in faet,
hidden by the Catholic question—yet still it went on noise-
lessly. Now, however, the Catholic question was at an
end, the cry of " No Popery" could now never be raised
again, either to divide the Reformers, or to strengthen the
hands of their enemies. At length the Catholic question
was disposed of, and at once Parliamentary Reform became
the primary consideration ; and the liberal support which
carried the one, and all the clamour which opposed it,
en
f esrvhl c h trh e
were at once given to promote the furtherance of the
House had
question.—(Cheers.)
ad
heard
s 0 muca
dTwheh feelings isno gy p
gs n
a
veiled from one end of the empire to the other, had been
attributed to causes that were utterly ioadeqaate to its
production. If ever there was a sentiment with which
accident bad nothing to do, it was the feeling throughout
England—that Parliamentary Reform ought to be acceded
to. Circumstances may have accelerated the progress-of
the great work; but the sources of the sentiment lay im-
measurably deeper than had been acknowledged by its
opposers. The great religious Reformation itself was
accelerated by circumstances; but did any man suppose
that the sale of indulgences in a particular part of Saxony,

was the cause which brought about that great work. No.
In both cases the public mind was prepared for a great
and important change. He would repeat, that the feeling
and the opinion were seated deeper. than any opposer
of the Bill had at any time represented. Ile, there-
fore; anticipated no reaction. He no more expected to
witness indifference to the Reform Bill in England, than
he expected to see his countrymen returning to any of
their ancient prejudices or superstitions. He no more ex-
pected it than he did a renewal of the practice of burn-
ing witches—an ordval of red hot ploughshares—or a
sacrifice to wooden idols. He no more anticipated a reac-
tion in favour of Gatton and Old Sarum, than be did the
renewed worship of Thor or of Odin. No, he had no such
fear, the victory of reason once gained, was veurei fur
ever.—(Cheers.) If there were any sign of public feeling
peculiarly favourable to the views and wishes of the Re-
formers, it was that very fact of the caltnness now so uni-
versally preceding. Was it the calmness of indifferenc,,
or was 'it not, on the contrary, the calmness of confidence
and hope? But in proportion as ti.e confidence of hope
was great, so would be the bitterness of disappointment.
In that Houk, at least, they would encounter no disap-
pintment ; but then an appeal had been made to the
Lords, as if the wher Howe of Parliament had no com-
mon sympathies with the g eat body of the people—as if
they were powerful through the weakness of the middle
c!ass, and ex,lred through their degradation—as if to pu-
rify and establish the freedom of election would incapa-
citate the Lords from the
.exercise of their functions, and
that corruption appeared to be indispensable to the preset,.
cation of their authority—as if their privileges and power
rested upon a sy,tern full of that corruption,and that low ini-
quity of which the ordinary Courts of Justice, took cogni-
zance—and as if the Lords were resolved to stand or fall
by a system which the nation had resolved to de•troy.
Thus maintaining the, principle th it the power of the House
of Peers depended upon the existence of a mock House of
Commons. That was the nature of the appeal made to the
House of Peers. Could the Peers shut their eyes to what

lad occurred in a neighbouring country? Could the most
Inobservant spectator—even the least classical-4w Hind
:o the tnalks of that just dissolution and renovation of

society, which bad taken place in a neighbouring country ?
Could any travelhr walk through the long lines of stately
mansions which filled the Faubourg St. Germain, with-

out being feelingly struck by that great event.—(Cheers
from the Opposition, re-echoed from the Ministerial
benches.) Could any man, without experiencing such a
feeling, walk through those camtles, now broken up into
lodging-houses, of an Aristocracy as far descended and as
proud, as brave, and as polished as ever existed in this or
any country—could any man remember that Aristocracy
driven into exile and beggary--(Loud cheering from both

sides of the House)—compelled to implore the charity of
hostile neighbours—driven to the back settlements of
America, or compelled to teach French to English school-
boys--could any min witness the vestiges of such changes
as that, without asking himself why they had so been
swept away, and their place no longer known, and their
heritage given to strangers, and their Palaces despoiled—
could any man fail to ask himself why it was, or, asking,
fail to receive fur answer, that those results arose because
they had no sympathy .with the people—(Cheers)—be-
cause those who warned them of their (linger were treated
as theorists and speculators—because they refused to make
any concession to the just demands of the people?
But did he apprehend any such results in England
.
till the Peers should wholly separate mselves

from the people, and scarcely even then. The
English aristocracy could, he trusted, under no circum-
stances, be brought to resemble those of France. But what
was the argument of those who suggested that if the Eng-
lish aristocracy betrayed the slightest sympathy with the
people, they would share the fate of their brethren of
France? But how could he imagine that considerations
such as those could have the slightest weight with an
aristocracy, whose leading members, and the heads of
whose most ancient houses had declared themselves pre-
pared to sanction those changes which the just rights
of the people of England—the spirit of the times—de-
manded ? The Talbote, the Cavendishes, and the princely
house of Howard, were amongst the avowed supporters
of the Bill ; and to those could be added the descendants
of the Marlboroughs, the Russells, and the Derbys. For
himself, he again repeated that he felt perfectly assured
that the Nobility of England knew wherein their true
honour and interest consisted; but even still he felt that
there would in this country be no danger of the results
which in other lands had accrued from resistance to the
reasonable demons of the great body of the nation, for
there would still be constitutional means of putting forth the
strength of public opinion, the enemies of Reform, even if
they succeeded for a time might assure themselves of this, that
they could only hope for a short respite—for the House
of Commons itself was one of the three estates of the
realm ; and though they would treat the others with
perfect and becoming respect, they would still remember
what was due to themselves ; and therefore it was vain
to suppose that such results would ensue as had taken
place in other countries, from the overweening power of
the aristocracy, and their blind resistance to necessary al-
terations. But there were those who expected other con.
sequences from the rejection of the Bill—there were those
who, in the event of that rejection, expected that it would lead
to the return to tamer of that party which had fled from
office in last November; who had fled, and left everything
in confusion—the nations of the continent on the verge of
anarchy, and the fires of incendiaries lighted up in many
counties of England. Appalling and dark was the day of
their flight; and far more dark would he the day of their
return. Far more dark would be the day of that return,
which would be the signal for resistance to the most
united people in the world—a people never snore united—
not even when the Spanish Armada sailed up the Chan-
nel, or when Bonaparte formed his camp at Boulogne. It
would he utterly in vain that any attempt should be made
1 to trample upon or to crush public opinion ; for if any
II body of men were sufficiently strong for such a purpose as
that, they would in their fail carry down with them the
whole frame of society. Would it not then be the duty
of a faithful House of Commons to warn the Sovereign
of the position in which lie was placed—would it not be
their duty as well as their privilege to convey to the King
the wishes of his loyal people—would not the natural
place of the House of Commons be in the front of the na-
tion? And here, he trusted, they would be found with
the virtue, the wisdom, and the energy that would save
the nation.—(Loud and continued cheering.)
Mr. CROKER, after bearing testimony to the elo-
' quenee of the Hon. and Learned Member who had just
sat down, observed _ that that part of his speech which
was intended to be most successful had proved the least
so; but he bad at least communicated the solemn and im-
portant information of the course which his Majesty's
Government intended to pursue ; it was, therefore, to be
presumed, that the Hon. and Learned Member had taken
office, and that lie (Mr. Croker) hailed the promotion of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman with the greatest satis-
faction—that satisfaction, however, was only diminished
by the shade cast upon the present Ministers of the Crown
through the splendour of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Hithertothey had only known the Member for Caine as a
practising barrister, and no more—(Cries of "Oh, oh !")_
but now they found him pouring forth his eloquence in that
House under a new character—to him had now been com-
mitted the task from which his Majesty's Ministers shrunk
—the task of schooling that House—of dictating to the
House of Lords—of prompting what the people should
say to the King, and what answer his Majesty had already
resolved upon returning. No man was more ready than
himself to admit the eloquence of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman—he had felt its effect too forcibly to deny its
power—he - hail felt them too personally.—(Some Hun.
Member laughed.) Did any one suppose that he had used
the word personally in its ordinary sense ? There was, in
rise common acceptation of the term, nothing that could be
called personal in the speech of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman ; on the contrary, he had, throughout, avoided
anything approaching to personality; but he would tell
the Hon. Member who laughed, that if he could appre-
ciate such talents as those of the Hon. Member for Caine,
he would feel no surprise that another, though opposed to
him, should admire them also. But as the highest flights
often happened to be the heaviest fall., and in the swiftest
courses the most serious disasters, so in a speech, elo-
quent beyond any which had been heard upon that ques-
tion, there were points of weakness which no imprudence
or lack of judgment had ever surpassed. The Hon. and
Learned Member seemed for a moment to foreet that he
was addressing a Heuse, or either remembering that what
was said there did extend beyond the walls of that House,
and addressed the other branch of the Legislature in the
words of wisdom, drawing his weapon from the very same
armoury to which lie (Mr. C.) would have gone h by
not been anticipated ; but be need not suggest that the use
and application to be made of such a weapon would have
been with him strikingly opposite, though he could not re-
frain from admitting the general excellence of a speech,
though so much of it was calculated to do little else than
to tickle the ear and delight the imagination, without sa-
crificing the reason. But how did the matter stand with
the Hon. and Learned Member when he came to particu-
lars—when he came to describe the conduct and proceed-
ings of the States General of-Paris, of the events of the
French Revolution, and of the fate of the Nobility on the
disastrous day ? Did he think that the empty halls of the
Faubourg St. Germain would send their echoes to the
House of Peers in England, and warn them of their fate,
or for what purpose did he use the illustration ?..--(Loud

cheers.) He must have known that France, in her ancient
Constitution, possessed three estates, and when they met,
the House of Peers went into their Chamber, and the
House of Commons, as they might be called, retired to
theirs ; but the promoters of the Revolution felt, that
to leave the Peets in the full possession of independent
power would have the effect of defeating the • project
of the Revolution, and the first attempt in Paris, as
it would be the second in London, would be to intimi-
date the House of Peers into a servile compliance with the
wishes of the other branches of the Legislature. The first
project proposed there was the union of the two branches
of the Legislature, in order to destroy the power of ono
of them. In the case of England it might be thought
that the three hundred independent Peers, exercising a
separate and substantive authority might yet controul and
successfully resist the. ill-digested innovation of the Gar-
mons ; but let the 659 get the three hundrid amongst
them, and they would soon make short work with their
less numerous opponen,s. It was said that the Chamber
sheaved no sympathy with the feel:ngs of the people How
could sympathy be shown or withheld, when the three
hundred Members of that Chamber stood with apparent
freedom, though really restrained by invisible shackles—
' yielded to the terror and the violence of a blood-stained
populace—sub:ritted to the Guards, who paraded within
ttte sanctuary of their sitting ? Was that lie example
which the Hon. and Learned Member would propose to
Englishmen? Did he forget that night of insanity when
the abolition of nobility was proposed by a Montmorency ;
when to destroy the-rights of seignorage was moved by a
Nosilles ; and the act for sweeping a way tithes by
Cardinal Archbishop? And who opposed those? The
Abbe Gregoire. The Hon. Gentleman had said that
the object of those who were opposed to the Reform
Bill, seemed to be to persuade the House of Lords to
do that which they were unable to do themselves.
He (Mr. Croker) would arbait that his Lope was to see
that Noble House interpose between the Constitution and
the attempts that this Bill was making to destroy it. He
would admit that his desire was to see the House of Lords

stand as it wrre like a proud isthmus—like that which di-
vided the ocean from the Alerliterranean. But the Hon.
Gentleman not only went this length, but also contended

that those who were against the Bill strove to persuade the
Lords that their House could never have weight or influ—

ence in the country, unless there was a mock House of
Commons ; but be denied that the House of Commons,
under the present systemovas a mock House of Commons;
and he would ask, could that be a:mock House of Com-
mons under which England had for so many years flou-
rished—under which she had arrived at her present pitch
of prosperity ?—(Cheers.) He thought the present House
of Commons was in itself a proof that Reform was unne-
cesiry ; hitherto, for a long course of years, the Tory
party had always a majority in the House ; but on this
question being agitated, the other party bad gained a ma.
jority, and a considerable one: then surely this was a
proof that under the present Constitution the people could,
when they pleased, return a majority to that House; and
this was all that they desired to be able to do under
the reformed system of representation. The Honour-
able Gentleman, in his speech, hod gone on to state
that it would be absurd for any one to expect, that
even if the Reform Bill was carried, bread would he
cheap, or taxes would be less oppressive; and that such
results as those could only arise from a long series of wise
administration. But if that was the case, what was there

to hinder the present Admiuistration doing that as the
Government wis at present constituted r Why was this
alteration in the representation called for? Did the Mi-
nistry expect by that alteration to obtain a still greater in-
fluence and power ? If they did, he, as a Member of
Parliament, protested against the Bi 1, on the ground that
the power of the. Crown in that House was already suffi-
cient, and that to increase it any further, would be to
render it enormous. But whatever the majority of
the Ministers in the House might be at the present time,
he begged to observe that they had not the same majority
in the country in favour of Reform.—(Oh, oh ?) He
was sure that he was right in that proposition, and in
proof of it be would state, that in a number of contested
elections, in which 34 or 35,000 persons had voted, there
was only a majority of 1,600 in favour of the Reform
candidates.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that the Hon.
Gentleman had ronteneled that the people were still ena-
moured of the Bill ; but he had quite overlooked the cir-.
cunistance—that the present B 11 was an entirely different
one front the one in support of which they bail given their
votes : in fact, with the exception of the disfranchising
clauses, the alterations between the two Bil!s were so com-
plete, that they could in no respect be looked upon
as the same me tsule.—(llear, heir.) It bad been his
intention, though the speech of the Hen. Gentleman had
in some degree led him astray from that intention
to paint out some of those al nations to the House; and
though he would not go the length of charging actual
favouritism against the introducers of the Bill, he must
say that there were provisoes and arrangements in it,
which, if actual favouritism had existed, could not have
been otherwise proposed. The first of those cases was
that of Westbury ; this borough was, in almost every re-
spect, the same as that of St, Germain's, the proportion
of the latter being 2,400 inhabitants, and thirteen 10/.
h a no
du sfel,
tandethat of
en
101.
houses
;fo r
and y bunge 2,
tst.
G e6romon a n h.;
It
It!
at as nat
l-
together disfranchised, while Westbury was allowed to re-
tein—not one—but both its Members. So, when he com-
pared the county of Suffolk with that of Durham, he
found that the proportion of Members was altogether in
favour d the latter, while the proportion of population,
taxation, and square miles, was as greatly in favour of
the former. The same might be said with respect to
Northumberland and Norfolk, and with respect to Cum.
berland and Essex. In fact, taking the Bill as a whole, it
exhibited such a mass of absurdity, that to him it was
almost incredible how any man or set of men could be
found to propose or support such a heap of anomaliee.—
(Cheers.) He would point out another of those ab-
surdities. By dividing the great counties which were
entitled to four Members into two parts, every voter
of those counties, instead of having the privilege of
voting for the whole four, was only to be allowed to vote
for two ; while in the smaller counties, which, on account
of that very smallness, were only to have three Members,
the voter had the privilege of voting for all three. He
really did not know whether such an arrangement as this
was more monstrous than ridiculous, or more ridiculous
than monstrous.—(Cheers.) The population of Cumber-
land being 155,000, became entitled to four Members ;
though, if the calculation had been fairly made, it would
be found to contain a population of only 115,000 ; because,
in justice, those inhabitants who, by living in boroughs
and towns, became entitled to votes there, ought to be
deducted in calculating the population of the county. This
being the case, the half of Cumberland would give a poptt•
lotion of 57,500 ; and these were to be allowed to return
two Members, while Chelsea, which was more populous,
was not allowed to have any Member at a11..--(Hear, hear.)
These were some of the arrangements of the Bill—arrange-
ments which were made
he mustnotopnlbye,liebvuet,toasheita
trick,teere
by a trick; and which
till he was shown, that they were not,—(Cheers.) But
it was useless for him to attempt to take the House
all through
there thei t
this Bill he fact
t
was, that
similar anomalies, injustice, absurdities, and suspicions of
favouritism.—(Cheers.) The smallest boroueh in England
was provisions
not
pagee B
in
ao f h
which had been enfranchised was Gateshead.The name must
beon the lips of every Member. It was extraordinary, too,
that one of the smallest counties in England had received
the most Members. The most flagrant instances of par-
tiality were to be found in the Bill, which could not be,
he was persuaded, known to gentlemen opposite; some of
whom, he was sure, had not read the Bill. It was said
that the Bill would make elections cheap; but, in fact, as
polling place kept open for fifteen
there note now only one
days, and then there might be fifteen polling-places, each
kept open for two days, thus making the expence of the
public double; that was not lessening the expence.—
(Hear.) There would be fifteen agents, fifteen poll clerks,
fifteen tally-men, and there could be no termination to any
contest like the one of the two days. A county election,
which before cost 10,000/ , would henceforth cost
100,000/.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said they saved
the travelling expences_that the people would eat less,
and that there would not be so much to pay for eating.
But the Noble Lord had himself, on a proposition being
made to him to take the poll in parishes, replied, that that
would increase the expence Of poll-clerks and agents, and
would amount to more than the savings for carrying up
the voters. But the expence would be otherwise increased.
There moat be nomination, and an opportunity of addrees-
ing the county at large must be afforded to the candidates.
The nomination was indispensable, and all the expellees
of it must be incurred. The voters must afterwards go
from the place of nomination to the fifteen polling places,
thus increasing the expence. There must be travelling
expellee,' 50, as he asserted, that nobody but a madman
would contest a county, and a mailman endowed with
prodigality. In 1767 there was a contested election for
the county of Northampton. Mr. went down to
Northampton, anti he writes thus to Mr. Garrick The
candidate is a certain Lord .Althorp"—(" No, no 1"
cheers.)
what
hae
that
rt
Lord
h Spencerla If
d i t
d to VnAeS
wouldnot Lorda v Ae 1 tdhoonrer h f
ore daindyn oott
haeutputp otle
on the occasion. He would read the
letter Our election is fixed for Thursday; Lord
Spencer offers 40 pounds and 50 pounds for a vote. At pre-
sent the other two Lords hive a majority; but how mat-

teas may fluctuate between this and the day of election it is
impossible to foresee. I hope that Lord Spencer may not
treat us to a riot." That showed that a riot even might
take place between the day of nomination and the day of
election. He would not proceed further into the detail-
of the Bill ; but to expose all the tire's of that luminous
Bill
.he must read it from beginning to end. The Right
Hon. Member then referred to the Commissioners, to
whom, he said, he would trust his honour; but he would
not trust them with the power of deciding concerning
the constituency of England.- To decide concerning
the operation of the Refot m Bill was what he could
not trust even to them. He found amongst those Com-
missioners the names of two Members of Parliament,
both partisans to the friends of Reform ; and in parti-
cular he objected to the Hon. Member for Stafford-
shire, as a partisan of Reform, and also to the lion. Mem-
ber for Boilmin, who bad distinguished himself it, favour
of the Ministers. He objected also to the Lord Chief
Baron of Scotland being made•tbe Chief Commis loner.
That was mixing up party with politics ; and if his Hon.
Friends had done any thing of that kind, they would have
received the most violent castigation possible, and they
would have deserved it. Ti e R ght lion. Gent!e•
man also objected to Sir Willoughby Gordon as the fourth
Commissioner, who was at the same time a partisan. That
gentleman had been off. red by Eatl Grey the Master-Ge-
neralship of the Ordnance, with a seat in the Cabinet,
which he refused, out of no ivant of attachment to the
party—not to say the faction—and who was still strongly
attached to the Ministers. The Right lion. Member then
al uded to the defeat of the Whig; at the late election at
Great Grimsby, where the Reform B:11 hung round the
necks of the candidates like a mill-stone. Would the
House believe that one of the defeated candidates at
Grimsby was another of the Commissioners ? and nothing
but his own modesty would prevent him from sitting to
decide on the boundaries of Grimsby. One of the agents
of this gentleman, who perambulated the borough, and
who did his employer's business admirably—this agent
was asked how he was defeated ? "Oh (he said), that
Reform Bill did it."—(Cheers.) There must be a
plaster for this defeat al o ; and this gentleman, with an
auspicious name, the agent of the defeated candidate at
Grimsby, was also made a Commissioner ; and nothine
should prevent Mr. B. Kerr and Mr. Tallents from fixing
the boundaries of Great Grim.ly.—(Cbeers.) There was
another gentleman, ton, with a most auspicious name.
He might be sent on the same errant'.—(Laught, r.)
The Rev. Mr. Sheepshanks would make an admirable co-
operative with the gentleman he had mentioned.—(Loud
laughter.) He did not, be it recollected, object to him
because he was a clergyman. He believed he was an able
man, but had also heard that which was not quite so de-
sirable—that the Rer. Gentleman was a warm political
partisan.—(Herr, hear.) The next person on the list
was a gentleman against whom no one could take an ob-
jection, or insinuate ought to the prejudice of his fairness
and imp Irtiality, for he bad been made only the other week
a Master in Chancery by the Lord Chancellor.—(Hear.
and a laugh.) There was no one who knew anything of
the eminent and excellent person now presiding over the
Court of Chancery, who would not at once repudiate the
idea of his promoting any man because he was a through-
going politician.—(Cheers, and laughter.) But, some-
how or other, there were tho-e who remembered the new
Master in Chancery (Mr. Martin) as one of the most ar-
dent party men in the House, and as the gentleman who-
moved the second vote of censure on the Perceval Admi-
nistration.—(Hear.) After that he retired from public
life, whether under the influence of Government or de-
clining years, he (Mr. Croker) was unable to say; but
behold his ancient friend, the martyr to the Government,
suddenly emerged into active life as a Master of Chancery.
in the place of one who had been, forsooth, superannuates
to make way for him.—(Cheers and laughter.) The nes'
person on the list was one of the same name as the gen
tleman whose Government they all doubtless remembered.
and who it appeared had been made a rider, because
he could not walk. The Hon. Member for St. Ives

(Mr. Hawkins) had favoured the House last night wit!
many meditated informations—(A laugh)—and, anion;
other things, he had told them how .grievously it was ti
suppose that a son could not at any time, from a sense of
duty, act independent of the wishes of a father. Thi
Hon. Member having uttered no argument that was not
three weeks old, be had hazarded, by way of variety, that
one observation by way of anticipation—(Hear, and a
laugh)—that Harry Morton the elder, and Harry Morton
the younger, were not at all likely to have any prejudices
in common, and that they would make a couple of excdent
Commissioners. He had now, however, nearly done with
them. The Church, the Bar, and the Horse Guards,had
been ransacked to find men to fill its ranks, and the Houta
of Commons—that House which had never bowed to King
or Keysar, had been advised to trust one of the most deli-
cate duties ever connected with its Constitution to—whom?
Why, to the Cterk of the House of Lords. To the Cert.
of the House of Lords they were to leave the poison of
judging in the Tribunal of the First Instance who were to
be the persons to return Members to the House of Commons.
H. had now done with the commission: He hoped it would fail.
He knew it would ; but he was not, because it would be a
failure, to abstain from denouncing the mad and proili4ate
attempt, or from holding it up to the contempt and ridicult
of the House. Look, lie would ask, at the plan for
registering the voters through the means of assistant
barristers. They were to have five guineas a day. He
thought they would be poorly paid at twenty, and by and
by, if they asked that, they would get it. He (Mr.
Croker) had one summer day, when in office, tried how
many papers he could sign, and he found be got through
between five and six thousand ; but the assistant barrister
must decide casts as quickly as he (Mr. Croker) signed
papers, if he got through the examination of the voters
of any large county in less than ten days. He could
tell the House that those gentlemen who were to be
employed not one year, or two, but every year, must
be made permanent officers, with salaries of 5001.
or 600/. a .yrar ; and thus the House of Commons,
which from the jealousy of patronage threw out the
County Courts Bill, because it appointed forty bar.
rasters as Judges, were now about to give the Govern-
ment the appointment of sixty-eight Judges of the
same kind, who must have large salaries for the per-
formance of their very laborious duties.—( Hear, hear.)
He would merely add the expression of his confidence,
that if tl:e House of Lords suffered themselves to ba inti-
midated into the passing of the Bill, they would at once
reach the crisis of insanity, and the revolution might b
declared to be commenced. He did not mean that a re-
publican form of government would be at once established,
but he believed it would be attempted, and he was sure the
attempt would fail.—(Cheers.) But through what variety
of untried theories, through what new schemes and new
changes they might pass, who was to say ? There might
be blood, there might be rapine and plunder.--(Hear.)
He hoped not.—(Hear.) He heard an Hon. Member
exp4ess surprise at his using such language,' The allusion
was not his (Mr. Croket's). He echoed the language of
those who declared that such things must be if .they did
not pass the Bill; and he exclaimed now, that, in his opi-
nion, there was yet safety for England if they rejected
the lidl.—(Cheers.) It was the lion. Gentleman op-
posite who raised the cry which produced excitement.
It was the Noble Lord himself who first countenanced it.
—(Cheers.) The vote of the House of Commons, and the
use of the potent name of the King, created all the ex-
citement which threatened such alarming consequences.—
(Cheers.) He knew the people of England well. They
were not so much excited as obedient. They followed im-
plicitly the commands of the head of the constitutional
anonai cliy. The people were not naturally; inclined to
blood or to plunder; but they were toll that their entlim=
siasm would be considered patriotism, and their viAence
held to be legal ; and was it marvellous that they were
both earnest and excited ?—(Hear, bear.) If the other
House did their duty, they must acknowledge at the same
time that the Members of the House of Commons had done
theirs. They were a small minority, but they had done
their duty to their country, and he would rather be a
Member of that minority than of that double majority
which at one moment voted Aldborough into schedule B,
and in the next determined, with singular inconsistency, to
keep Downton in schedule A. This much he would
say, that lie believed they had done much good. The
people were not insensible to reason or argument, and he
i
had good grounds to believe that the mpression produced
by the irresistible powers of reasoning on that side of the
had House
ouptoorftiodnooorsf
the
eh ekn
Legislaturee it t odbi
de
within. If f
its duty with the same zeal and honesty, then he would
say he had no fear for England. Fro that that House, in-
deed, he expected much. Why was it that the Lords
sgreat
were surrounded with the pomp ,of rank ? Why
was it they Were .clothed in ermine, and placed above their
fellow men ? He would say it was because the service of
the State required that it should be so. It was necessary
chat on occasions like the present they should be removed
from the vortex of popular prejudice. They were placed
as spectators: They would soon be called to act as
Judges; and it was because they were to fill such a si-
tuation, that the Members of that House, who held
themselves to be the equals of all, paid a willing deference
w the House of Lords, and, as it were, with a proud hu-
mility, appeared at their Lordships' bar when summoned
—public business lernanded their attendance. The Mem-
bers of that House—men justly proud of their situation,
and holding themselves equal to the most exalted rank of
the other free countries of Europe, set an example to their

fellow subjects of the deference due to the House of Lords;
end of the necessity of their observance which their situa-
tion demanded. From them, therefore, he repeated, he
now expected much, and so far from saying that that
House should save itself by yielding to intimidation, be
would say that if the House of Lords could bring itself to
act from any such base and contemptible motive, he would
be against the Lords.—(Cheers.) For what was the
House of Lords preserved in the possession of such ex-
clusive privileges but to act on an occasion such as that
which now presented itself ; and it was for this that every
friend of rational liberty had for the last few days looked
up to the House of Lords for the triumph of the principles
of the Constitution. He bad been educated in those prin-
ciples. He had been taught to venerate the House of
Lords equally with the Crown itself, as a branch of the
Constitution. He. venerated their office. He venerated
their rights, and he would say to them, now or never
must you maintain them.—(Cheers.) What, he would
say, was the use of the Lords ? Was it to register
the edicts of the House of Commons.—(Cheers•) Were
they never to differ on any subject which came before them.
—(Hear.) They might be supposed to be allowed to hold
a different opinion about a Road Bill, correct a mistake on
the Wine Duties, or pass a Turnpike Bill. On these and
such like pettifogging points, they were, he supposed, to
maintain their character of forming a part of the Constitu-
tion—(Cheers)—but on Ibis question, the moat important
that ever came before them, they were not to be allowed
any liberty of opinion.—(Hear, hear.) When out of
36,000 voters, there were only to be found 1,600 of a ma-
jority in favour of the Bill. When in the fullest House of
Commons that ever was assembled, with 302 Membe►s
dividing against 301—and if that were the time, what
might he not say of that one—was it, be would ask, ex-
traordinary that the House of Lords should be permitted to
pause and deliberate before they yielded to the language of
clamour and intimidation with which they were assailed?
lie said that this was the most important measure that
ever cams before them. It was more important, he hesi-
tated not to say, than the question of the revolution. It
was more important, he was prepared to contend, than
the Hanoverian Succession. These were mere temporal,
or, perhaps, personal questions. They were conneet.d
with the natural lives of men, but the present question
affected the interests of posterity to a degree far beyond
any which that Noef•c had had to decide on for cen-
turies. It was their duty to transmit unimpaired to their
descendants the rights, time liberties, and the glories that
had been handed down to them falai their forefathers, and

they had contended fur these rights with perfect independ-
ence of ail interested motives, without the prospect of
place, and he believed he might say, without any desire
Fur power.—(Hear, hear.) If, however, the Bill came
down from the House of Lords with an intimation that it
vas not disposed to adopt it as an improvement in the
System of representation, he had strong reliance on the
wisdom and firmness of the House of Commons in the
course which they might determine to adopt. He believed
that the Members of that anise were not indifferent to
the necessity of preserving the privileges of that body un-
impaired, and that they were not insensible to the fact
that if they drove the Lords from their curule chair., the
Commons would not long be allowed to retain possession
of their matted benches. Violence dope to the Lords,
would he a sure prelude of violence to the House of Com-
mons, for all history bore testimony to the fact that those
who incited the rabble, in such cases, to outrage anti
poliation, were always theme:lves eventually sacrificed by
the power which their passions had raised. But by a
ready and candid obedience to the Constitution ; by that
just deference to the determination of the House of Lords,
whatever it might be, to which that important branch of
the Legislature was justly entitled, the House of Commons
vould consult their own peace, and establish the quiet of
England. The star of the Constitution was still shining
brightly in the heavens. By following that star, they
would weather the dangers which threatened them, and
although the prospect was dark and lowering, would sur-
vive the violent tempest in which they were involved.—
(Loud and long-continued acclamations.)
Mr. STANLEY cordially concurred in the concluding
observation of the Right lion. Gentleman, namely, that by
following the star of the Constitution, they would weather
the dangers which threatened them, and although the
prospect was dark and lowering, would survive the tem-
pest in which they were involved.—(Hear, hear.) He
trusted that that expectation would be verified by the fact,
and he believed that it would be so verified whenever the
Bill before the House should pass.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had apologised for his shrinking
modesty—(A laugh)—but, unquestionably his ingenuity
had been more conspicuous than his diffidence. Nothing
could be more ingenious then the manner in which the
Right Hon. Gentleman, after the overwhelming eloquent
speech of the Hon. Member for Calne—a speech taking
,e:e most comprehensive view of the question, not only as a
Reformer, but as a Statesman—nothing coted be more
ingenious than the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman
pursued. For what did the Right Hon. Gentleman do?
Flinching from any examinations of the great principles of the
measure, the Right Hon. Gentleman read a funeral oration
over the opposition ro it iu that House, and uttered a predic-
tion of its loss to the House of Lorde. As to the Bill itself,
the Right Hon. Gentleman confined himself to jokes on
the names of the Commissioners—to stating that one was
afflicted with the gout, and that another happened to be
called Sheepshanks, and to similar witticisms—and to cer-
tain details discussed over and over again in the Com-
mittee, which was the proper place for their investiga-
tion—the question before the House being simply, " that
this Bill do pass."—(llear, hear, hear.) In the frightful
sttte in which the Right Hon. Gentleman supposed the
country to be, it was some satisfaction to find that be was
enabled to withdraw his mind from the contemplation of
that state, and to devote it for no less than two hours to
lighter matters, and to subjects of comparatively trifling
importance. If any stranger had entered the House, and
had heard the two hours' speech of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, he would scarcely have supposed, after listening
to the language, seeing the gestures, and observing the tones
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the House were en-
gaged in considering the last and irrevocable stage of a
measure which the Right Hon. Gentleman had himself
characterised as being more important even than the revoe
lution.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the details into which
the Right Hon. Gentleman had entered, he hail been
betrayed into the grossest mistakes and mis.statemente.
He had renewed the charge repeated over and over agent,
and which, whenever it had been made, had been treated
with due indignation and contempt by those against whom
it was levelled, namely, that his Majesty's Government had
been actuated by a base and partial favouritism in drawing
the line of qualification which the Bill contained. After
having referred to the cases of St. Germains and Westbury,
in both of which he was in error, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had asserted that the supporters of the measure had
been drawn into the division of counties by the sense of
the House and by the sense of the country. And yet the
division of counties was one of the provisions of the Bill
when originally brought in by his Noble Friend. The
peop'e never heard of the Reform Bill until they also heard
of the proposed division of counties. But the Right Hun.
Gentleman declared that so fAr from extending, they had
actually diminished the constituency of the counties [Mr.
CROSER-Towns.] That was not fair to take a part of the
plan. Generally, there was no diminution of the consti-
tuency. The Right Hon. Gentleman also esserted that
the expence of the polls would be increased. That
he (Mr. Stanley) denied. It was true that theme must be
fifteen poll-booths under the Bill. But so there must as
the law at present stood. The only difference was, that
at present the fifteen booths must all be erected in one
place, whereas, under the Bill, they must be erected in
different places. The Right Hon. Gentleman then at-
tacked the Commissioners who were to be appointed
under the Bill—not their personal and private character.
Oh, no ! The Right Hon. Gentleman would trust them
with his life—he would trust them with his honour—hut
he would not trust them with a Turnpike Bill! A proof
this that the Right Hon. Gentleman had no very high
opinion of political honour.—(Hear, hear.) It so hap-
pened, that of the two Members of that House appointed
Commissioners, one of them had frequently divided against
Ministers with reterence to the Bill. But even were the
Commissioners as politically iniquitous as the Right Hon.
Gentleman supposed them to be, it should be recollected
that their award was not final ; but that it must be sub-
tnitted to, and confirmed by Parliament. On the topic of
the appointment of barristers, the Right Hon. Gentleman
had supposed that a difficulty would exist which he
(Mr. Stanley) confessed he did nut apprehend; and
be had amused the House with a conversation be-
tween five pounds and five shillings, carried on in
a tone of pleasantry not exactly becoming the last stage •
of " this atrocious and revolutionary measure."—(Hear.)
Not one word had the Right Hon. Gentleman tittered from
the beginning to the end of the speech, on the effect likely
to be produced by the attainment of the great object. de:i
eeribed in the preamble of the Bill. Not one wor.dsboan
he uttered with reference to all those great .1;
which the minds, the hearts, the affection.,
1.,,,e1r,ti I
bear.)
of the people of England were set.--(!;ear, the Bill
The Right Hon. Gentleman had
told
alone
ato thrartalludouus2
buthad bbeeeinutcoil completely altered
ther.
leading principle*: on w to_ •.
had, been altered.—(Hear, hear.
fun beds "
an',
the •ci of the 11.11? Hid I
e
fuombedo, Aar eche,lttle B been altered ? Hati
change been made m me principle liantlrevreiletarott.s tohrteh e people of

CorpoiaLion inonopolie3 been ,:,c',3tinuetl:' ITO 4. Coe large
and populous towns been 'deprived of their proposed re-
presentotives—those towns to whitt the Anti-Reformers
were now willing 'co grant the elective franchise, hTY:ztuse
they could no longer withhold it.—(Hear, heir.) The
Right Hen. Gentleman admitted that S great majority
of that House wrre in favour of the Reform Bill. He
also admitted that a majority of the country were in
favour of the Bill. But he denied that the maf,orlty of
the country on the subject bore any ropot•tion to the
majority of that House. In support of this position
the Right Honourable Gentlomat referred to the recent
elections; and maint:tried that in :76,000 voters who
polle4, the majority in favottr of the Reform Bill Was no
nvm.e than 1,6(10. lint what did that reeve? Merely
that great exertions had been mark by those who had no
doubt had a deep personal iate-..est in the question.--
(Hear.) But would the 'fight Hon. Gentleman include
the numbers who wottld have voted, if in every populous
town the sense of tie people had been taken, as well as
expre,:ad Hoar.) Would the Right Hon. Gentlem in
tell the 1-Imi,e from how many mantles, hitherto the bor-
t-.(ls cif Te'd yis to, the Anti-Reformers had been obliged to
fly without the shadow of a chance?-(Hear, hear.)
Would the Right Hon. Gentleman tell the House that of
all the county Members of England there were but six who
were prepared to vote against the Bill?—(Rear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had chosen to select as an ex-
- ampleof lukewarmness in the cause of Reform—and he Mir.
Stanley) had been astonished- to hear him—the county of
Northampton. It was a close-run election he (Mr. S.) al-
lowed. But what were the facts? That his Noble Friend
c tme to the poll with the Reform Bill- in his band, and was
elected, and that his Noble Friend's late colleague, than whom'
a more honourable rind recpeetable man never lived)
came to the poll in avowed opposition to Reform, and
was rejected ; and not only was that Hon. Gentleman
rejected, but a Noble Lord was chosen his surressor, on
the ground of his adherence to the ranee of Reform.—
( Hear, hear.) Like other Hon. Members, the Right Hon.
Gentleman had, in the course of his speech, made. an
apr,eal to the feelings of the House of Lord's; he had
iven them very wise cnunteJl, which he t Mr. Stanley)
trusted they would not follow; aurl he had prophesied
what the conduct of the House of Commons would he
when the Bill should return to them anaendvtl by the
Upper House. In illustrating this paint, the night Hon.
Gentleman had taken up what had fallen from his lion.
Friend the Member for Caine respecting the French
Nobles ; and had Ileclared that their fate was attri-
butable to their 'weak and vacillating conduct. Now
there was a great difference between lust firmness and
blind obstinacy. There was a great t ifference between
a sober and a. temperate assertion of right, and the
vacillating conduct of one who, having held any posses-
sion with tenacious grasp to the last moment, was at that
lam moment compelled, not to give up, but tO drop the
hand which had no longer the power of clutching.--
(Loud cries of ."Hear, hear, hear.") It was not because
the French *Nobles had granted, but because they had
granted toa late; not because they granted to just and rea-
sonable argument, but because they granted to threats and
intimidation, that they bad fallen.--(Loud cheers from
br i.h sides of the House.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
said if the Peers of England should (which God ftrbid)
throw out the Reform Bill, and so declare themselves in
open hostility to the declared wish and will of the people
of England—(Cries of " No, no")—he repeated, to the
declared wish and will of the people of England—declared
respectfully, but firmly—there would be no Republic. He
(Mr. Stanley) perfectly agreed with the Right Hon.
Gentleman. There would be no' Republic, for there
would be no attempt to establish one.—(Hear, hear.)
The people of England were not imbued with republican
prinriples. And when the Right Hon. Gentleman main-
tained that, acting on the principle of the Bill, and pro-
ceedin further and further on that abstract principle, be
coatid not see 'what security there was against their
going to a dangerous extent, subversive of the Throne
and of the established institutions of the country, he
would tell the. Right Hon. Gentleman that it was
this—athe security for the stability of the Throne, and of
the established institutions of the country was the same
as the secunty for the passing of the ; it was the
deep-rooted, heavy, and persevering force of public
opinion.—(Hear, hear.) It was the yielding to that
opinion which, sooner or later (and the sooner the safer,)
would effectually maintain the prerogatives of the Crown,
and the privileges of the Peers. The English loved mo-
narchy. More than any other nation they resPected Ari-
stocracy. They especially respected the Aristocracy of
their own country, because they did not see in that Aristo-
cracy what they saw in the Aristocracy of other countries—
they did not see the Aristocracy of their own country
placed in broad opposition to the other classes of the com-
sunnity—they did not see a determined and impassable
line of demarcation drawn between them ; but, on the
contrary, saw the division blended and softened so as to be
scarcely discernible.— (Hear.) Thank God ! there were
no privileged classes in this country—no higher orders,
exempt from taxes or other contributions to the service of
the State ;or claiming offensive distinction. Their rights
as hereditary Peers and legislators the people had no wish
to take from them, because the people believed that those
rights were vested in them for the benefit, and not for tl e
injury of their common country. He, thereore, (Mr. Stan-
ley) said, with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that if the
House of Lords refused to pass this Bill, there would be no
Republic. But, although there would be no Republic, the
Peers might sustain some pressure from the disgust and
aversion which such conduct would generate on the
part of the people, who might, perhaps be led to consider
them as their natural oppressors—as persons desirous
of wresting from the people that to which they had
no right, by the assumption of privileges to which they
had no claim. The Right Hon. Gentleman consoled
himself with the reflection, that, whatever might happen,
he had done his duty. He (Mr. Stanley) on his pot,
whatever might happen—and he trusted, and had indeed
no deobt, that before six months bad expired the Bill
would he the liw of the land—wou'd have the satisfac-
tion, in common with all the friends of the measure (a
satisfaction which they would carry with them to the end
of their live.), of having attempted, and lie was confident
it would prove successfully, to establish a measure, which
would be received by a grateful people as the strengthening
and consolidation of their liberties. The Right Hon.
Gentleman sat down amidst Muni cheers.
On the motion of an HON. Meatnest the debate was
then adjourned to this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

FRANCE.

(From the Morning Chronicle.)

AGITATION AND TUMULT IN PARIS.
PARIS, SEPT. 18.
Paris is in a state of agitation difficult to describe, and
of dissatisfaction which cannot be'expt essed ! I have told
you it would come to thi.. and I have predicted that the
fall of Poland would lead to consequences of a general,
serious, and important character in France. The agita
Con which is felt in Paris is general. It is, not the agita-
tion merely of grief, or disappointment, or surprise; but
it is the, agitation of a profound sentiment of national in-
, dignation and national anger. It is not the agitation of
the surface of soc'ety. or of the surface of human feelings,
•prejutlices, and anxieties, bat it is a deep, profound, settled
feeling of as,itati,,n, similar to that which a man woul,l feel
if he saw the prospect of being deprived by death of all his
woi Idly hopes, the loss of friends, relationsjortune, home,
and reputation. Do not deceive yourself or let others deceive
you by ti.c belief that it is the agitation of the moment.
No such thing. The agitation is not that of a party, but
of all partiei; not of Nspolconists alone, or Republicans
alone, or patriots alone, or of the war party alone, or of ,
the faubourgs, or of the students, or of the Ecole Poly-
techniques alone. No, no ; it is the agitation of all
classes, and all opinions, and all students, and all schools,
and all journals; and every one who is not a pl Leeman or
a rentier, exclaims, "We can go on so no longer." if
the Courtier Francais, the National, the Constitu-
tionnel, the Temps, and the Journal du Commerce for
the moment beg the citizens to wait—to create no distur-
bances—to attend the result of the debates, which will
canunen, . morrow in the Chamber of Deputies, and to
leave . -,.representatives of France the duty of over-
throwin present system, without disturbing the very
basis o .litical existence, it is because they hope and
believe t. 't the results of this discussion will be to make
war for Poland—to overthrow thejuste-milieu system—to
send back to his bank and his iron mills the commercial
Minister of France, RI. Caaimir Perier, and convince Louis
Philip that France will not be .hunailiated—and that the
questions of peace or war, Belgium, Portugal, Italy, and
Spain, must indeed be placed on- a very different footing.
But should these expectations he most-unexpectedly dis-
appointed—should the Chamber approve the system of
Perier by any vote such as it has not yet come to, and
should our President of the Council obstinately refuse to
leave the helm of public affairs, andpersistinarsetefeorrinftitiheer
vessel upon rocks or quicksands, then preP
language, for other conduct, for other policy,antl loitoortahner..
proceedings ; and prepare, should it be necessary,
other, and even an immediate revolution ! Remember
what I have often told you. Franc (will not be cajoled

ir out of either the plinLipic of the cuiriequences of the Re-
volution of July, 1830.
The tumults in Paris Burin; the whole uf yesterday,
and which have been resumed to day with increased vio-
lence, were made not by Cat lists in the disguise of work-
men—and not by priests, with blue smock frocks and
slum nm,tachoes—and not by the violent portion of the
t-cp',lblican party—but by rich and poor, learned and 4,-
onrant, young and old, workmen and shopkeepers, men
and women, boys and girls—by, in fine, all classes, ranks,
ages, sexes, and opinions. When the journals of the Mi-
niver speak of a few hundred individuals having done this
thing—and of a few hundred pr.rsotts having done that—
they deceive only those rilvo did not see Paris, and did not
behold the scer.es In which their statements refer. Not
hundreds but thousands, and not thousands but tens of
thousands, you may with safety state, did this and that—
and all Paris, from the Barrier du Trone to that of infer,
and from that of Roule to that of Mtntmaitre—all Paris
was in a st ate of agitation and of tumult. In some
places orators addressttl the multitude, and cried, " Vive
la Pologue)" as on the Place de I'Odeon. In other
places orators exhibited placards, and cried " A his Its
Ministres," as in the Palais Royal. In other places
they compelled M. Perier and M. Mebastiani to quit their
voiture and take refuge it the Hotel of the Minister of
Justice, as on the Place Vendome. In other places the
people overthrew the omnibusses, to make barricades in
order to prevent the cava'ry from charging them, as op-
posite the Cafe de Paris and on mitt Boulevard Mont-
martre. In other places they entered the theatres, as in
that of Nouveautes, Varittes, and hailer', and compelled
the actors to retfrO from the stage, and discontinue their
perfortnaheeN Indeed, everywhere the theatres were
dosed, " Retire, retire ! ' cried the celebrated rontan, at
the Theatre des Nouveautes, " and do not seek to amuse
us with your follies, Whilst our brethren in Poland are
being massacred," In other places the common people
sought for arms, and entered the shops of firtn-akm mann-
fattUrert, and thus sought to defend themselves front the
swords of the Municipal Marils and the trampling of the
cavalry. The tlaims beat to arms in every direction,
hut the N'ational Guards were deaf to the sound, and out
of a battalion of 2,400 National Guards, only 103 men
made their appearance. The 2,300 who refused to at
tend, thus showed the nature of their opinions, and how
dangerous it is to trlae with national honour and n ttional
feeling, It other quarters the troops of the line refused
to bayonet the people, and contented themselves with en-
treating the citizens to retire. In other parts the " pas
sages," similar to your Burlington Arcade, were encum-
bered with people who barricaded the entrances, and there
sung the Marseillaise till the hour of midnight. In vain
did the foot police entreat, protest, and fight their way
through the dense masses of people in the environs of the
Palais Royal—and every where the cry was heard of
" A has les Ministres" " A bag Casimir Perier," " Vive
la Pologne," and " Vive la Liberte."
Nor must you suppose that this agitation and these tu-
mults are without object, any more than they are without
cause. The object is clear, avowed, distinct, national. It
is to overthrow the Perier Adtninistration—to obtain the
nomination of a popular Ministry—to compel, by force of
arms if necessary, the Russian army to re-cross the Vis-
tola—to secure the independence of Poland—the real in-
dependence of Belgium—the dethroning of Don Miguel—
the liberty of Italy—a popular and national representation
in France—and the benefit, full and unrestrained, of the
revolution of July. But the moments are precious. We
have no time to spare. The National Guards will no
longer march against the people en masse, to support the
Minister of the hour. The drum beats in vain ; and,
before it be too 1 de, I hope that France will be saved from
the sad consequences of civil war.

EXPRESS FROM PARIS.

(From the Times.)

We have just received the Paris Journals of Monday, and some
dated yesterday, together with several letters from our corre-
spondents. The state of Paris continued unquiet.
At an early hour on Monday morning several Deputies re-
paired to the Chamber to inscribe their names upon the list of
speakers upon the Peerage law, the report of which was fixed for
reception on that day. The Secretaries were not, however, to
take their places before the usual hour; but at eight o'clock in
the morning the passages to the houses were beset by Members
preparing provisional lists of names to speak against the project.
The Chamber was crowded to excess. The Dey of Algiers
was in the Diplomatic box:
At two o'clock M. Berenger, the Reporter of the Commission,
appeared with the report of the Peerage law ; it was extremely
long, and occupied considerable time in the reading. It com-
menced by examining the right of the Peers to join in the dis_
cussion of this question, and observed that the chain which united
the two Chambers in legislative consultation had never been
broken ; that on the 3d of August, 1830, the Session had been
opened fly the Lieut -General of the Kingdom in the presence of
he two Chambers ; that they had both deliberated upon and voted
for the revision of the Charter • that on the 7th of August Louis
Pbilip swore to support the Charter in the presence of the two
Chambers ; in a wor,j, that both had concurred in re-modelling
the Constitut.on. From this the report concluded that the two
Chambers have an equal right to take part in the discussion of
the aid article, which was now to be revised. It repelled the
opinion of those who had called for the intervention of thepri-
mary assemblies in the consideration of the national affairs, an
opinion which would be to recall chaos.—(Applause from the se-
cond section of the le:t.)
The report then examined the connexion which existed be-
tween two such Chambers in the various Constitutional Govern-
ments, and insisted from thence that the Peers ought to be a
moderating power, and differing in its composition and object to
that of an elected Chamber. The mission of the Chamber o'
Peers was to arrest, in certain cases, the progress of events. The
basis of this Chamber being thus fixed, it was necessary to ex-
amine if the nomination of Peers ought to be effected by popular
election, by lists of candidates, or directly by the King. If the
electoral mode be employed, whatever be its conditions or
modifications, the Chamber of Peers would soon become
a Chamber of Deputies, thus giving two similar Cham-
bers. The principle of election was not compatible with
immoveability. The commission therefore rejected the principle
of election. As to the election by lists of candidates, it would
be merely a fiction, and always easy to force the will of the King,
by joining with the persons whom popular feeling might wish to
appoint to the Peerage, other persons notoriously incapable and
unfit. The direct appointment of 'Peers becomes then indispen.
sable, but it will be for Ministers a source of great responsibility.
The reporter then states, that his opinion was decidedly for the
hereditary right,—that a Chamber of Peers, as a moderative
Chamber, could Have no force without this right. This the re-
porter declares to be the opinion of the minority of the commis-
sion. The reporter concluded by announcing to the Chamber,
that it was the opinion of the commission that the Peerage should
not be hereditary, but for life; that the King should alone be in-
vested with the right of naming the l'eers ; and that, filially, the
present law should be definitive, not provisional, as proposed by
the Ministers.

The report,in fact, affirmed the whole project of Ministers for
re.modelllng the Peerage, except making the measure a defini-
tive one, and not provisionary.
The Chamber was sitting when our express left, but it was said
that the questions to Ministers about Poland and Belgium were
not to be put on Monday evening.

PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE
PARIS, MONDAY EVENING.

You will see by the Journals what has been the state of this
metropolis within the last three days—in fact, since the sad in-
telligence reached Paris that Warsaw had fallen, after a heroic
struggle. The sympathy between France and Poland is obvious,
the men of both countries have mingled much together under
relations which produce binding ties. The schools of Paris—
hot-beds of political excitement—have been filled with young
Poles—the saloons last winter were crowded with their Nobles,
to say nothing of the host of historical recollections which hun-
dreds of fields of battle evoke, in which the subjects of the two
nations " have kept together in their chivalry." National sen-
timents have intermixed with individual attachments, and
scarcely a private letter has arrived after a combat in Poland
with details of losses, in which some Frenchman had not to de-
plore the death of a friend.
History will pass her verdict upon this martyrdom of a heroic
race, ana the disease which creeps into the physical system of
other States in the track of ruthless and invading barbarians,
will avenge the wrongs of a bleeding people, and make their op-
pressors tremble.
The effect of this sad Polish news here was, as usual, " a
movement." I have seen all the riots of last year; but this last
riot, in one respect, differed from them. The people who ga-
thered into street crowds were better dressed than the mobs
which beset the Luxembourg Palace during the trial of the Mi.
lusters, and pulled down the Archbishop's dwelling. The young
men of the schools, and persons apparently mixing a good deal
in society, were the rioters of yesterday and Saturday ; few of
them were without strong sticks, and many, I believe, had con-
cealed fire-arms; loaded istols were, indeed, found upon some
prisoners. I certainly did not see the working people so much
engaged in these last crowds as they were in the previous ones.
Besides this difference in the class of men who composed these
last street crowds, there was also another and a very serious dis-
tinction observable. The National Guards did not answer well
to the rappel. I have spoken to many who frankly avowed, that
they would not take up arms to extinguish popular sympathy for
the Poles. It is right, however, to admit that enough did assemble
to preserve the public peace, but there were thousands of others
who heard with inattention their drum beat to arms. The regi-
ments of the line, cavalry and infantry, were out in greater force
than I remember to have previously seen them in the streets,
and they turned a deaf car from the insidious hints of " Long
live the Line," which were uttered by the crowd, and rode over
numbers of people by word of command, when the order for die.
persion was pronounced.
The gunsmiths' shops were plundered, and in three or four
placetithe people resisted the authorities by flinging stones and
attempting to erect barriers ; these attempts were quite fruitless,
and some bayonet and sabre wounds were inflicted on the occa-
sion; but no loss of life, as far as I can learn, except that of a
young man who was killed near the Exchange by the explosion
ofa pistol in his waistcoat-pocket. There have been a great
number of arrests by the police, and a republican club was sur-
prised, it is said, in full divan, while engaged in preparing a
plan of insurrection. There is a great fermentation of party
spirit, and evidently a want of moral strength in the Govern-
ment. They are strong enough to repress these ebul itions of
popular feeling when they arise, but they are unequal to the pre-
vention of their recurrence.
There are crowds in the vicinity of the Palms Royal, near the
This day the general appearance of the city is not tranquil.—
Chamber of Deputies, and at the Exchange, but they appear to
be composed of persons assembled rather out of curiosity than
tumult. The garrison are all under arms, and I see not the
least chance of serious popular outrage. The people every where
yield to the movements of the troops and the police.
Still the crowds move from place to place, and the expressions
used at times indicate very restless feelings. When the Mini-
sters are personally assailed in the streets, as was the case
popularity,yes-
terday,—whensuchistcoreantteidnuwei,tihdidsgisurieegtaurdde,—. i
Allt is dibttiu
business
stOi
sfohreersee eatthae
terday,—when the King, who mostly has enjoyed individual
result
e
I aran
troops are forming in the Place Vendome the 11 arms'
stand. Whilst I write the drums are beating
ta la
positivelyi s Royal,rae
formedd
thequay
thatin several
otfh et Chamberhe Nationoalf
(guards
activity
uinfvsudits
yeatinhnto
ade to the
act this day, and that reports to that effect have
General Staff. However, I see that enough areeeinn
o
repress mischief : every where, in fact, the soldiers
me to act. There is a good deal of political rancour abraiLlCei
ranch of pinching distress among the people ; these are bad in.d

gredients for assuring tepes'e ; neVertheless T cannot see the im-
minent danger which some persons'are ringing in my ears.
The funds rallied this day, the monied men having, as I learn,
matte a strong effort to sustain the present Minister and the
King, against the movement party. On the whole, the appear-
anees at four o'clock are calmer than they were two hours ago,
and the people were everywhere gradually dispersing. Y.

(From the Monitcul• of Monday.)
Fresh attempts at disorder oebared this day (Sunday), but the
presence of an imposing military force, and the attitude of the
population discouraged the malevolent, and frustrated all their
designs. They undertook nothing which was not on the instant
fepressed, and in the evening the streets of the capital were as
clear as upon days of the greatest tranquillity.
Between twelve and one o'clock in the day, a tolerably nu-
merous assemblage was formed in the garden and court of the
Palais Royal. The most culpable cries and vociferatiohs were
heard ; strong detachments of the National Girard and infantry
of the line soon arrived; and immediately cleared the court and
the galleries,bnt lint without some resistance. The most riotous
were arrested.

Once driven from the Palace, the crowd was soon completes),
dispersed; but towards six o'clock in the evening they again
collected upon the Place of the Palais Royal, and at the entrance
of the street St. Honore up to Rue du Coq. Two troops of Ca-
valry soon re-established the passgge of the neighbourhood,
while the town serjeants blade several arrests. almost all of them
designated t*y the information given by citizens.
Dttrtng this time strong battalions of the National Utiards
were stationed on the boulevards, where their presenc., prevented
disorder. .

It remains to us to signalize the most important incident of the
day,—the arrest of about 20 individuals, who were shut up in the
house of M. Dulemisolt, A wine-seller, in the little street of
St. Louis, to project, as it would seem, the disorders for the
evening. The authorities, apprised in time of this intention, be_
set the house; the disturbers finding themselves infested, bar.
fielded themselves within doors, and refused to obey the sum-
monses of the Commissary of Police, to open in the name of the
law. They were then obliged to break open the door, and all
who were found in the house were taken before the Prefect of
the Police. In the number taken was M. Chauvin, a member of
the Society of the Friends of the People, one of those who was
tried and acquitted With Sambuc, and a man named Blanchard,
called Silverehin, one Of the 'offidert of the division of La Croix.
A pair of loaded pistols Weft found upon Chauvin; the ethers
also carried arms. Important discoveries may be expected to re-
sult from tifesb artests.
Tht teal of the National Guard, of the troops of the line, and
the Municipal Guard, was not for a moment relaxed ; it is more
indefatigable than the obstinacy of those who bring it to the test.
We must also notice the intrepidity and devotion of the town-
serjeants who bravely exposed themselves in order tp make ar-
rests in the midst of the groups, and many of whom were even
grievously wounded.
Marshal Count Lobat, who actively directed all the measures
of the day, appeared in all quarters at the head of his staff.

If similar attempts are renewed to-morrow, measures are
already taken for repressing them with the same promptitude and
efficacy.

(From the Morning Herald.)

The Paris Journals of Monday, those dated yesterday, and let-
ters from our Private Correspondent, have this instant reached
us by express; their contents arc various, and of importance.
At the date of our Correspondent's letter (Monday evening,
four o'clock), Paris was in a state of excitement—but up to that
moment no acts of violence had been committed by or on the po-
pulace, who had assembled in seVeral quarters, but particularly
in the neighbourhood of the Chamber of Deputies.
The National Guards mustered rather more numerously on
Sunday than on Saturday, but were still far from displaying
their former alacrity. Those of the s'lu Legion have addressed
the Representative of their arrondisement in the Chamber of
Deputies (M. Eusebe de Salverte), condemnatory of Ministers,
and of the measures resorted to by the authorities for the repres-
sion of public feeling.
Vast numbers of arrests took place on Saturday and Sunday.
From many of the groups on the former day cries of .‘ Five
l'Empereur ! Fire Napoleon 11.," and of Viva la Republique,"
issued. A club was denounced on Sunday—the members, to the
number of twenty, were arrested—among them was M. Chau-
vin, who, it will be recollected, figured on former similar oc-
casions, and particularly in the conspiracy of which a M. Sam-
here was the head, and for which he was tried and acquitted.
It is said that it was this club which directed some attempts to
form barricades on Saturday.
The Funds recovered in some degree on Monday.
The report of the Committee on the Peerage was presented to
the Chamber of Deputies on Monday, but, of course, was not
discussed. It was deemed probable that the debate on the in.
ternal and foreign affairs of France fixed for that day would be
postponed to yesterday (Tuesday).
Rome is still in a state of agitation, but through the inter-
ference of the French Ambassador, perfect tranquility has, in all
likelihood, ere this, been restored.

The cholera continued to make dreadful ravages at Berlin.—
Now disturbances had broken out at Stettin, but they were easily
repressed. The following are extracts :
CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES, SErr. 19.

At twelve o'clock M. Girod de l'Ain, the President, took the
Chair.

On our way to the Chamber we found numerous groups formed
in the Tuileries gardens, on the Place and Bridge de la Revolu-
tion, and every avenue leading to the Chamber of Deputies. A
regiment of Carabineers and 500 National Guards were drawn
up in the court and square of the Palace. Orators were spout-
ing in every group, the fate of Poland and the Perier Ministry
being the topic of all the conversations. The Chamber never
presented a larger assemblage of Deputies, nor the tribunes (gal-
leries) a more numerous assemblage of auditors.
About one o'clock M. Casimir Perier entered the Hall. Afraid,
it would seem, to venture through in his own carriage, he ar-
rived by a back way in M. d'Argout's coach.
^^^. .

Afte; a report on the Budgei'of 1831 and 1832, presented by
M. Pelet de la Lozere, amid the noise of private conversation,
had subsided,
M. Rambuteau rose to move that the Chamber discuss the
Budget of 1831 on Wednesday, next, which was agreed to.
A profound silence succeeded, when M. Berenger presented
the report on the project of the law for the reorganization cf the
Peerage. . . .

(From the Courier Francais)

We have already given details of the insurrection at Neuf-
chatel to throw off the yoke of Prussia. The following Pro-
clamation of M. Bourguin, Commander-in-Chief of the insur-
gents, was issued on the 14th instant :
Fellow-citizens of the Canton of Neufchatel!—ln 1806, in
opposition to the formal declaration of the Constitution, the
King of Prussia, by an act of cession granted to Napoleon,
alienated our country, and received in exchange the duchies of
Berg and Cleves, which he still preserves. In 1814, the widow
of Berthier was despoiled of her rights over us. The country
might and ought to have declared itself free and independent;
but the Council of State, without consulting the people, and in
pursuance of the decision of a majority, and not of the unani-
MOUS voice of that assembly, who rather sought to preserve their
own places than to promote the welfare and happiness of their
fellow-citizens,placed the country again in the hands of the King
of Prussia, who at the same time retained possession of those
duchies which he had received in exchange. This disastrous re-
storation, which was nothing less than the result of an alliance
between Kings against the people, sanctioned that usurpation
and treason against which we now protest. Men of Neufchatel !
You have just won, by your courage, your independence and
your sovereignty over this country—you have replaced yourselves
in the position in which you stood in 1814. Having achieved this
conquest, you appointed and proclaimed me your military Corn_
mander-in-Chief. You have created a Provisional Government,
which will be immediately Installed, and which you have sworn
to obey to the last hour of your lives. Men of Neufchatel ! It
was your desire to have a Constituent Assembly ; active measures
have been taken that Members for it shall be called from every
party of the country, and a Constitution is in preparation which
will be founded on the principle of the sovereignty of the people,
and equality of civil and political rights.