The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONIJON, TUESDAY, JULY 12, 1836.

did not come up to their Lordships' House until the 16tl
of August. It was well enough that the House should
then feel that it was rather too late to begin the consider;;.
tine of so important a measure. The present Bill was laid
on the table on the 30th of June, and he should have been
rejoiced to have laid it on the table at' an earlier period ;
hut on that subject he felt he was open to no reproach. Ile
Report to which lie had already alluded made it unneces-
sary for him to detail ali the objections to the present sys-
tem and the remedies proposed to be applied. The ques-
tion had reference to the two periods at which an arrest
might take place. It applied to the mesue process for
the purpose of securing the appearance of the defendant
upon execution, and to 'the subsequent imprisoninent which
fhllowed the judgment. The object of the present Bill
was to get rid of both, for nothing could be more nnoma-
lous than the present state of the law after judgment.. By
the present bankrupt laws a man being a trader, and owing
100/., might. divide his priyperty amongst his creditors, but
such an advantage was not extended to debtors riot trailers.
If imprisonment after judgment were not right, could, Ito
would ask, imprisonment before judgment be right ? The'
imprisonment ,before judgment, before trial, was for the
purpose of producing the body of the defendant, and at the
production bail was discharged. He would now call their
Lordship? attention to the state of the law with regard to
mesne process. A person accused of an offence was first,
arrested and then taken before a magistrate, who investi-
gated the charge before time accused was committed ; but
in the case of debtors the law was very different. Tile
party was arrested before judgment ; bail might be put in,
but the expense of bail was usually so great, that it was not
worth while to put it in. This practice he would, therefore
say was an obvious means of extortion. What now were
the evils to be remedied ? First, that the debtor, by
the present law, was,exPosed to severe and useless hard-
ship ; then the inconvenience that a man who was willing
to
,cede his property for the benefit of his creditors was not
permitted to.do so without incurring two months' imprison-
ment ; and, lastly, that a man who was desirous of settling
with. his creditors without resorting to any legal tribunal
could not do so without obtaining the signamre of every
individual creditor to the agreement. The present Bill
proposed to effectuate these several objects. The first '
fifteen clauses provided means by which a more effectual
execution could be obtained against the property of the
debtor. He proposed that, as tile interest of the creditor
was limited to one half of the income of the debtor's estate,
it should be extended to the whole. The greatest dif-
ference between the Bill of last year and the present Bill
was with regard to making landed property subject to a
compulsory process for the payment of debts. The cre-
ditor was by law entitled- to one-half of the income ;
and it was now proposed that, if the debtor did not
pay off the debt within one year, the creditors should
then be consideiel to have an equitable lien on the
property. It was also proposed to make every descrip-
tion of property subject to execution for debt. Judgment
being obtained, Commissioners were to examine the insol-
vent, and after a full disclosure they might authorise an as-
signment of part of the property for the satisfaction of the
debt. It was also prop) ed, that after judgment the judg-
ment debt should bear interest from the date of the debt.
The abolition of imprisonment for debt would cause one of
the Bankrupt Acts to cease, and it was therefore proposed
that, unless the debt were paid within twenty-one days, or
a writ of error brought, that of itself should be considered
to amount to an act of bankruptcy. The Bill also provided
for the punishment of those who fraudulently obtained credit
or who fraudulently assigned their properties after actions
had been commenced against them ; also, for giving false ac-
counts to their creditors, or declining to give accounts, or for
mutilating their books, or fraudulently absenting themselves.
For such offences the arties shall not be punished by the
Judge before whom the debts were to be proved, but be
guilty of a substantive offence, and be liable to punishment
accordingly. This would afford a powerful check against the
fraudulent conduct of debtors. If this measure became
the law of the land between debtor and creditor it would
follow that the present law of arrest would be got rid of.
He thought, however, that in some cases the law of arrest
should be'allowed to be continued. For instance, when a
person was about to' absent himself from home with a view
of removing to another country, to avoid being proceeded
against by his creditors, he conceived that there should
be some means of taking hold of the debtor with a view
of detaining him. As an illustration of what he meant, he
would mention the case of a creditor living at a distant part
of the country, who knew of the intention of a person in his
debt to leave the country, but who would not be able to
, stop him from the lapse of time that would ensue to send
up to London to obtain authority to arrest the debtor.
Under such circumstances, he proposed that on an affidavit
being made. before a magistrate of the facts of the case, the
latter should be empowered to issue, a warrant to arrest
him ; that the person should then be taken before a ma-
gistrate, and on giving security for his being forthcoming
when called for, that he should be release. From the
returns on the table, he believed that he was authorized to
state that; there were very few arrests for larger sums than
GOl., and most of the arrests were for sums between 20/.
and 20/. At any rate he was authorized to say that the
law of arrest was brought into operation for debts be-
tween 20/... and 60/. The Bill was framed in conformity
with the
.report of tile commissioners, and was also in its
main principles similar to the Bill sent up from the House
of Commons last Session ; hut if the House was of opinion
that there was pot sufficient security for the creditors, or
sufficient ready means to obtain payment of debts, they
might, provided they (lid not impose greater hardships oil
debtors, make such alterations and modifications a: they
deemed fit. What there was proposed in the measure was,
that the law of arrest should be abolished, except in special
cases--that the debtor should be compelled to go before
one of the Commissioners who' was to be appointed through.
out time country to carry the Bill into effect--and that
the commissioners should examine as to whether the debtor
was possessed of property or not.—(Hear.) If it appeared
that he was not possessed of property, and that he had
not fraudulently contracted debts, then the Commissioners
should be allowed to give him a release ; and if it appeared
that there was property it should be surrendered tq the
creditors, and that then a release should be given. The
13i11 would not give the Commissioners the power of adju,
(heating in a disputed case ; but after' both parties- were
brought together in very many cases matters might be sa-
tisfactorily adjusted. Of course this Bill could not be
carried into effect without an extensive machinery. In
London it was proposed that the Court of Review slicuilti
be used as a tribunal, The Court of Review, 004141 ad-
mirably qualified, as far as regarded the Judges of it, in
arriving at a direct conclusion of the cases brought before
it, yet it bad not sufficient business before it to oeeuß its
full attention, This Court, therefore, lv'ou
ttld
io to transactbesuflitlt
for London. It would not, however, by
the business of time whole country. Under these circum-
stances it was proposed that Commissioners should- be ap-
pointed to carry the Bill into effect in all large towns in the
country, and, above all, in the large commercial and ma-
nufacturing districts. These Commissioners also would be
of great use in being able to take affidavits, and
,endca-
your to Make enquiries under the direction of the Court qt'
Chancery, but by which means a ?feltvi 118' 1T011,14t gffe.cted
tq flits §tfifrtl'fi lend P§POialbir iq tilqsq eases where it tsar
now necessary tq send down a special CorivnisSi(llli fikvat
heaelts had'already resulted from tho Ncout *cf.:alien in the
constitution of -the 11414:rupt (Joert in I..ondon, and he'had no
doubt that much good would arise from extending the system
to time country. It was QhViolis that Olt system would rewire
the appointment of a 'oo{llllll6SitliWr ill each district its the
eGuntry, '‘vlio would have to trarsanct the bankrupt System,
as welt ns that oonneoted with insolvents, The 'Noble and
Loaroed Lord concluded with moving the second reading of
the Bill,

The Duke of WELLINGTON rose,-and said—My Lords;
thc Noble and Learned Lord has stated accurately to your Lord,
ithips the dates of different periods at which measures upon this
suiject have been introduced into this House ; and the Noblo
and Learned Lord has said that a Bill was brought before your
Lordships upon the 16th August, 1835, and that he had him-
self laid upon your Lordships' table the present Bill upon the
30th June. 1836, and the Noble and Learned Lord has compared
the period of the 16th August, and the period of the 30th June, as
if there could be no circumstances existing in Parliament which
ought to be taken into consideration in a question of this kind,
excepting merely the dates at which the measures were in.
troduced. If I am not mistaken, there is at this moment
upon your Lordships' table a larger quantity of business than
was ever before known ; besides, my Lords, we hear reports of
an expectation, and I am sure I hope that those-reports are
well founded--( A iaugh)--,that the present Parliament will be
prorogued at the end of this or early at the commencement of
the next month ; your Lordships know, likewise, that there
arc many measures of the very greatest importance to be sent
up from the other House, upon which it is absolutely necessary
fur us to decide. Considering, further, that several Noble and
Learned Lords have already left Parliament, and that others
must shortly go on the circuit—l say, my Lords, that if
it was expedient upon the 16th of August, •1835, to post-.
pr,nn the consideration of a measure of this nature, it is, at
least, equaliy expedient to adopt the same course upon this
day, the 11th of June, on which it is again proposed for ;your
attention! ill the earlier Put of the Noble and
Learned Lord's speech ho stated enactments which would
certainly render it desirable to postpone the Bill.
There is Pno Subject Suite distinct from all the others, and that
relates to the judgment debtors ; there is also another subject,
quite distinct *and separate from the others with which it is
connected in this measure—l allude to tho conic! knorum.
The thifcl subject, ulttcli is quite distinA is the punishment
of fraudulent debtors ; plttl the last siubjeot, quite distinct from
all the rest, roleteP to the arrest of the person, With regard
to the first part, my Lords, It contains the most remarkable
change in the whole system of the tenure of property—a•
change which, if it be necessary to adopt, in order to give the
creditors a fair hold upon the property of their debtors-7:A
claim L4dmit must LIP attepded tp, for ()iochs. let
• . .• •••,• • k ,
it be. male ut,my' 4.,orqq, 4 naye. reptted 'to cdlain re-
turns upon the'subpet,' tad' it 'a.kicalls so!faras I' have
been able to judge front those -'retUi4isiii records,
that the number of "pdrUout• delitOq' in vroToftiom t 9

crsena in general is really quite trifling ; for I find that the
number of judgment debtors against whom affidavits were
to in all the Courts of London, out of 123,000 was only
800. {The Noble Duke also referred to some other figures
which we could not catch, and proceeded.] And yet, for the
sake of laying' hold of such persons, we are called upon to
overturn the whole system of property in this country.—
( Hear, hear.) If it be true that the great merchants,• that
the -lauded gentry of this country, are persons who endeavour
to avoid the payment of their creditors in the name of God
let uS adopt this measure ; but if it be•not true, if the papers
to which I have referred nffsrd a true estimate upon the subs
ject, then I say that the first 16 clauses of the Bill are wholly
unnecessary ; and I beg of you to pause some time before
you adopt those clauses. The Noble and Learned Lord had
said what was very true, that the first 16 clauses alone re-
ferred to judgment debtors. The other clauses, amount-
ing to about 100, refer, to debtors against whom there has
been no juilgment ; and the object of the present inea-
sure is to bring those debtors rte.:in-Ist whom there is las
judgment under the operation of the bankruptcy laws ;
but how. are they to be so brought? Why, they are to
volunteer to petition—they•cannot be arrested—their persons.
caenot be touched—but these debtors, against whom, be it re-
membered, there is no judgment, are to come forward and •vo-
lueteer to petition, in order that they may be brought under
the operation of the bankruptcy laws. Will -your Lordships
In;lieve that this proposal cart give any security to,the creditors'?
If these persons were arrested, then I could understand why
they should petition to be brought under the influence of the
Bankruptcy Act;' but theie being no judgment against them,
nit being subjeet to arrest, they are to petition for the Opera-
tion of this Act I The supposition is totally out of the ques-
tion ; it is abundantly clear that they will not do it. Then,
with respect to the next point, I must -say that the Noble and
Learned Lord spoke in a manner which I was not prepared
to expect in reference to the Insolvent Debtor's Court. For
my own part I understand that that has,been a most efficient
Court—(Hear, hear)—and I find. that by returns there were
4,500 persons in the, prisons of the metropolis. Well, 2,500
were discharged by the Insolvent Debtor's Court, and 1,500
remained in prison ; and therefore file remaining 1,000 must
have satisfied their creditors, and liberated themselves.
Now, then, my Lords, it does appear to inn that this Court
is not ineffectual. Now in respect to that which I call
the third part of the Bill, • the confinement of fraudulent
debtors, I can see no remedy in the present Bill. As the
law stands now the Judge of the- Insol\vent Debtors' Court
has the power of refusing to liberate the debtor whom he may
find involved in fraud against his creditors or other persons,
and that is the confinement complained of by thesNoble Lord. -
But by this Bill the debtor must be' regularly indicted, ,and
your Lordships all know the difficulty of proof in such cases.
Then I say upon this part of the Bill that it will not tend to
accomplish the object in view. I now come to the last and
fourth part, the abolition of arrest, except in cases in which it
should.be thought that there was an intention of withdrawing
from the country; and I must say this, that I believe that the
mercantile classes of the country are interested in having' ome
power over the persons of their debtors, but that their interest
in having such a power is not greater than the interest of the
lower classes.. If no means should be afforded of procuring
money froM their debtors, the lower classes may at tims be
left in circumsteiices of the greatest difficulty. Under these
circumstances, my Lords, I trust that you will consent to post-
pone the second reading until this clay three weeks. Iliave
fixed that time, because I wished to be understood as pro-
flouncing no absolute condemnation of the measure.
Lord ABINGER said the law of this country Wit re.
mained in its present state for a long series of years, anacors
responded with the law of every other country in Etrone,
Why, then, should they be called upon to make so loge, and
important an alteration of that law by a Bill of this maitre ?
The greatest part of it, and that part which •embritee4 the
most novel propositions, was for the purpose of bringlegi oer-
lain persons under the operation of the Bankruptcy lAct.
Now. he begged their Lordshsps' attention whilst he ipro-
ceeded to,prove to demonstration that the immense machinery
and consequent expense with which this Bill was attended was • neither necessary nor efficacious. The law at present
.was,
that any person, being a trader, upon a dechiration, might; be-
come the subject of a quiet bankruptcy. Now, tho object of
this Biil was to accomplish the same thing with regard to 'per-
sons who were not traders ; and what was the -simple Mode
of doing it ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Why, by proposing
a clause to the effect, that the. declaration made hitherto
by perions being traders might be made by persona not being
traders, and should have the same:force end e*ct ; and thus
the whole system of the bankruptcy law would be at once
brought into operation. Again, with respect to the Insolvent
Debtors' CoUrt, that was now confined to persons who were
arrested ; and what was necessary to effect the object of, the
present measure but to form a clause, stating that the ben;efits
of the Insolvent Debtor's Court should be extended to per?ons
who were not arrested ? Either of those two simple clauses,
then, would accomplish the whole object of the present Rill,
by the means of existing institutions, without all that vast ;
machinery and expense with which it was encoMbered. If the 1
purpose had been to reduce the Isenksuptcy law, ho would have
given the subject his deepest oonsideration ; but he never.would
consent in that covert manner to make so important an altpra-
tiun in the ancient system 'of law upon the subject. But that
was not all ; there were a great many provisions, which went
to affect that most delicate of all subjects, the public iessisslit,
which was the foundation of trade. That, thm, is of all
others a subject which requires the most 04ttwat attention, and
upon which they were bound not to peooeed hastily or without due caution. With rer:peot to that part which regarded the
judgment debtors, he was inclined to think that that proposition,
with some modification, might be just and expedient.
Viscouat MELBOURNE said, that in what had fallen Prim the Noble Duke he ( Lord Melbourne) would not cc4nr,, and especially when the Noble Duke assigned as a reawmi ;tr.' I
postponing the Bill until that day three weeks, OW Owen
WP.'.;
a general report to the effect that a proroget4saiut Parllantent
as that event must do upon
might be expected at the end of She ilf,Ditsilt month, or, ati all
ev,mts, in the beasinning ne4t.' He must say that to deelde
thus early .upgil prulaabilities of a prorogation was, hoyond
sttife
p.:4l:'44itsl'3ltdititiYsi'caoulfs4ysbi discussion, and upon M
mighten—essdepending
oente hofore their Lerd-
nisentnatancea on which it
m, as totally out of the power of any. individual to pronounce a
&finite judgment; and hp was himself inclined to think that
in all probability the Ist of AVM would still find them sitting
there, and would again bring tho measure before them, As,
then, they would ultimately have to consider the Bill, why
not enter upon it at once ? Why shookt the Noble
Duke pripose to put it off fq three when, undoubtedly,
L'enise6-4 them, the discussion? It was pot
it must conic %Taut
his intention lq ik1110e( the Noble Duke or the Noble and
into any a the arguments they bad offered; on
tilrearii7l4l al wcl
nd its details; but at the same time lie must say that
be did not ET in those arguments any reason whatever 'for
pestpuning the consideration of the measure. As compar
w;tltthe duration of former Sessions—some of
which had tuned tat into September—the present time might airnest be-consi-
dered a's the middle rather than IttA the tcmination of the
SesSion. • •
4Ord Bliiiir.ll 0 -erVed that the first clause of the Bill
4141 It 4qwn that the Bill should not come into operation until
the Ist of January, 1838, so that the postponement of the. Bill
t;cl4ld not create alas* great loss of time.
Lord WYNFORD, after 'some observations on the details
of the measure, in which he particularly objected to the powers
given to judgment creditors, concluded by saying, that the ob-
ject of the motion to postpone the further consideration until
that day three weeks was not to throw out the Bill, but merely
to get ri.l of it in a quiet way, by putting it forward until the
•next session, it having been introduced at so late a period in the
present es to preclude the possibility of a stat4thetory discus-
sion upon it in both Houses.
The LORD CI-1V:4(14,1,0% in reply, said that his
Noble and lauttneCl •Filcatti had stated that the introduction of
lWn cl.Aliv's in existing Acts would effect all the objects
{he, 'll,vs:ent Bill without the necessity of resorting to its
nateneis machinery; but those clauses would in fact restore
the old bankruptcy system, and continue the Insolvent Court.
The only object of such a pisepasition would seem to be the
saving of a little paper and printing, and no more, for if carried
into effeet it would leave the law still most defective. A de-
sire to (4'64t0 patronage could scarcely with any foundation be
eherged against time promoters of this Bill. All, however, t.,',at
lie had now to do was to leave the Bill in their Lordshies: bands.
The question having been put, the House divided, when
thtre appeared_
For the amendment . -
For the original rees;oo 46
• Majeriry against the second reading
REQISI:I-ZATION 00 BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, AND
DEATHS.
Viscount MELBOURNE rose to move the second reading
of the Bill for the Registration of Births and Deaths, and
should their Lordships agree to allow that measure to be read
a second time, also to move the second reading of the Bill for
the Registration of Marriages. He was desirous that the two
measures should be considered by their Lordships together,
and on the same occasion. The main object of' the Bills which
he was now about to bring under their Lordships'• notice was'
to meet the necessity, now on all hands admitted to exist, of
relieving those of our fellow-countrymen who dissented from
the doctrines and principles of the Established Church from
being compelled to express their conformity with opinions and
principles in which they could not conscientiously concur.
Various measures had been proposed in the other House
by various persons ; but in the preparation and conside-
ration of them great difficulty had been found in reliev-
ing the Dissenters from the grievance of which they
complained, without doing away genCrally with the solemnity
of is religious rite on the several occasions in qnestion, The
only mode of effecting the object, and of', at the same time,
atfossling-• the opportunity for the reliuious ceremony, was the
reparation of the civil from the eedesiastieal ceremony, and
the establishment thronntiout the kingdom of one universal re-
gistratinn b4tbs, deaths, and marriages, a matter of general
nalitleal convenience, of great pfiblic interest, and one in the
highest degree desirable. The necessity for such a general re-
gister ants obvious. There was, in all probability, scarcely a
Noble Lord present who bad not, under some circumstances or
other, felt the inconvenience, and frequently the injnry, arising
from their heing'unable legally to verify the birth, death, or
marriage of individuals. Those who were at all cor,,:i.ant,
ww itim the proceedings in our Courts of .justice would be still
more alive to the dangers arising frs,Ss, an imperfect system' of
registratien, The
atl
, registry
present of no proof of the
age of thesPesnns entered therein ; and how many cases were
there of total omission frets; she regiater, where the princi-
ples of iduals
,if baptize Auearl 4g
et In the cases of marriage and bu-
rialn_s, incislbieve Was the sense deficiency, It was to remedy
all eca 'A142915, 41,t(1 to supply all these deficiencies, that the
present wore letsoduced. (The Noble Viscount here
Vi:.,rifit contrary to the observance of time rite
treat intake detail of the
.enactments of the Bill for the reSsis-
tvAtoAl 4 births and deaths, all which have repeatedly op.,
;ktutve(.l. Shewheee, • and particularly"during the discussions on

tb. same measure in the House of Commons.) He now
came to the second Bill—ehat for the Registration of Mar-
riages; and a subject which had always occasioned greater
difficulty and involved consequences of much greater import-
ance, because any omission in the due performance of regis-
tration of a marriage was calculated to affect posterior
generations, and deeply to injure the interests of those
who were quite unconscious of any wrong or fault which
might have been committed. He was well aware of the
evils attendant upon clandestine marriages, for marriages
clandestinely performed were usually improvident and ill.
assorted marriages, or the motives to secrecy would not exist ;
but while he was so aware of the evils of clandestine mar-
riages he was equally of opinion that there was a still greater
evil to be apprehended from encumbering the ceremony with
so many forms as to endanger its being considered as null,
and thus to blight the prospects and injure the interests of the
offspring of such marriages._( Hear, hear.) Manny of the
provisions of the existing law were justly regarded as wholly
ineopsistent with the spirit of the time, more particularly
those which related to the publication of banns. The
first clause, therefore, of the measure now on their Lordships'
table provided that the practice of publishing harms should
cease, and substituted, therefore, a notice to the registrar of
the district, accompanied by a declaration from the parents or
guardians that there was no lawful or just cause of impedi-
ment to the marriage.. (The Noble Lord then went on to
state the substance of the other clauses of the Bill, which
have already been frequently before the public.) In conclu-
sion, he hoped that the Bills would be looked upon by their
Lordships as accomplishing the object had in view, without
at the same time encroaching on any of the just privileges of
the Church of England.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY.—The principal ob-
ject of the present measures appeared to be to relieve the Dis-
senters from the necessity of externally conforming to the
forms of the Church of England, and so far as this principle
went it had his most entire concurrence ; and he was happy to
say not merely his personal concurrence but that of other
members of the Church of England ; for he had on that day
presented a petition 6om bodies of the Clergy in London and
its environs, in which the same approval of the principle was
manifested. At the same time, however, he could not extend
the same approval to the details by which it was sought to
carry out that principle ; so much so, that nothing but the de-
sire which he felt to give relief to the Dissenters would induce
him to give his assent to the second reading of a Bill con-
taining enactments which he conceived to be so objectionable.
He was willing that relief should be given to the'Dissenters,
but tire Clergy of the Church of England ought not to be
de-
prived of any advantages they enjoyed at present. They
were satisfied with things as they were, and thought that cor-
rections might be applied without inconvenience to them. By
this Bill the registration of births was compulsory. It pro-
ceeded in an inquisitorial mariner. Its provisions were en.
forced by grievous penalties, which he believed could not be
carried into effect. The system would not work well without
considerable alterations. The registry of births was always
preceded by the union, of two things, the naming of the chill,
arid that at the tithe of baptism. All the petitions '-,rich he
presented on the subject insisted upon the i)u'iot as of great
importance. Why should existing ar77thgements be disturbed
so far as the Church Of Engl"no was concerned ? Hitherto
the Clergy of the
_FAL*l..,7islied Church kept the registry,
and kept it faithr.;:ily._( Hear, hear, bear.) What reason
was there it
they should he deprived of it ? He could not
see any great benefit which the Bill conferred upon the
poor. ltevould not be in the power of the registrar to remit
the fee, while, as matters before stood, it was a very general
Wailes) with the Clergy of the Church of England net to
take any fee. It would be a saving of expense to the poor
if the Clergy were still permitted
to keep the registry, tit
which duplicates might be transferred to the proper office. It
was always the practice in this country not to interfere further
with existing institutions than was necessary for the purposes
of legislation. Nov this Act interfered with Jews and Qua-
kers, as well as with Dissenters. He read the other Bill with
great attention. and he was unable to perceive that it gave
complete security. The plan for the registration of births was
by no means complete. In some country parts persons would
have to travel six or seven miles to give notice of registra-
tion. Another objection he entertained was, to the division
into districts in place of the old parochial divisions. This
would take away one security they had from the law as it now
stood, requiring the publication of banns. The Noble
Viscount said that the publication of banns, in place of
preventing clandestine marriages, on the contrary gave
greater facilities to them. This arose from the Marriage
Act, which allowed the banns to be published in other
parishes as well as that in which the parties resided. He was
willing to allow the Dissenters every privilege and facility
they could claim, but he would not consent that the
Bill should interfere with the marriages of the Church
of England, ar with those of Jews and Quakers. The Bill
allawed the marriage contract to be entered into without any
religious ceremony to accompany it. This was objected to in
all the petitions which he presented to their Lordships, and
there was a strong prejudice against it throughout the country.
The Bill gave the registrar great authority. With respect to
the putting in of powers of marriage, if it was desirable that
the merriest,' should be by authority of this kind, let it be.
undee she authority of a magistrate or of some edur.sated per..
eon, to prevent indecencies from taking place.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH concuessaolin all that had
fallen fro:n the Most Rev. Prelates. Ha 'was always willing
to yield to the conscientious 8C4.4Pi% o .of the Dissenters; but
he could see no reason litse alterire-g the present form of mar-
riage in the Chttreis Er"gland.-.. The Noble Viscount said
the
dpublieetime bluiP.,afferded no protection against clan-
estiro: voolvex y, gave facilities
,and rather, on the contras
tC1404! Toe inconvenience in this case arose out of that
li.,Ovis;n of the law which required that ' no inquiry
prOst be made after the marriage. The same regulation
was preserved in this Bill. Nut only was the existing
laws as to publication of banns done away with, but a
notice was here substituted in place of it—a notice, how-
ever, that could not possibly be made public. These Bills
were said to be measures for the benefit of the poor man.
Now, what he most complained of wins—that marriage by
this Bill was made expensive to the poor man. By this
Bill be must pay in the outset a- fee of ore shilling. Next he
must pay the expenses of the two witnesses who accompany his
for their trouble and their day's labour. He would also lose
a day's labour himself. An expense of 3s. 6d. or 4s. more
in addition must be incurred in this stage of the proceeding,
and he (Lord Ellerrborough) knew not whether nullity might
not in many cases arise from some unintentional error in the
notice. An error might be committed quite unconsciously
by either of the parties. There was another consideration—
after publication of banns, as the law now stood, any person
might forbid the marriage, and give his reasons for
acs doing afterwards. In this way an utter stranger,
unconnected with the parties, might prevent, for in-
stance, an incestuous marriage. It could not be so under
this Bill. He had some strong objections to the measure
which provided for the registration of births. The poor la-
bourer was called upon to give notice of the birth of his child
eight days after. The time might be most inconvenient for him.
All the inconveniences of the Bill would not become known
till after some years' trial. And all these inconveniences and
expenses Were to be inflicted on the poor man, merely to gra-
tify some speculative philosophers. This was not the only
objectionable provision. It was required that when the child
was to be registered, fifteen days after the birth, some person
who was present at the birth must accompany it. Now it
frequently happened that riot more than two persons were pre-
sent at a birth—the mother, and the person who attended up,
on her as nurse. How were they to be got together ? The
nurse might be absent at a distance, attending upon another.
Some person at least was required to attend the registratiese
who had the child in arms after its birth, and if this pro-
vision would not be complied with by the per,,rna he was
subject to a penalty for another week's *Vex —( Hear.) It
was required, moreover, that the Tattoo by tvle;ch the child was
to be registered must be given withi" eight days after the
birth. It was trot usual to tiolt`");"e upon a name so soon As
eight days after birth, Fisap)r, often altered their minds as to
the name, and frnm "4°P:, circumstances might be disposed
to
egive Gatl tia'r."'io that they at first intended. Now such
a cAlg
.it , ro'..tia was treated by the Bill as a kith' of offence,
na the poor man was liable to be called upon for ss. more
un aadition to the ft is. 6d. This was not all, for, if due
nodes was not given within the required time, and after
the required manner, the child would be deprived of the
benefit Of registration altogether. It was impossible that
their. Lordships could allow clauses of this kill to pass.
lie could not see how the objects proposed by these Bills
were to be effected by legislation. The one thousand re-
gistrars were to have a fee upon each marriage, and, cal-
culating the annual number of marriages in this country,
the whole amount of the fees would be only 6,1001. It
was calculated that the registrar would receive every year no/
less than 88,000 passes. His receillts, upon a population
15,000 would, according to the scale of fees, amount
for so
to no
more in the year than 11/. 16s. It would be impossible
triflieg a remuneration to get men who would do the
verybusiltess
properly. A satisfactory registration of births
was a
dif-
ficult thing to be effected. It was not so difficult as regarded
deaths and marriages. In the preparation of these Bills the
Noble Lord might have availed himself advantageously of the
Poor Law Amendment Bill.
said the difficulties now
Lord MELBOURNE, in reply,
raised would varnish in the Committee. The vexations were
greatly over-stated. He had no doubt the Act would be
willingly complied „with when properly understood. The
same practices prevailed in France as those provided for in
the Bill. It did not interfere with the Clergy of the Este-
, only superseding a
blished Church; it left them as they were
registry.
The Bill was read a second time, and committed for Wee_
day on the sue-,,aestion of the Duke of WEL LI NG Tf;',s.
Lard 'HOLLAND complained of this delay,
'Fine Duke of WELLINGTON
considering • Int be given for consid •tb'-Proliwed Mondy that
time nug-
to see it passed after a thorough Bill. His wish was
oration.
ns.d
Lord HOLLAND said hi,
only objection to Monday was
that a Noble and LeareA
silents to attend +.tdc`,
Committee;Lord'o(nDFernimdaayn.) had made arrange-
rLoro itIELBOURNE gave notice that on Friday he would
itiove the recommittal of the Scotch Universities Bill.
On the motion of Lord PLUNK E T, the Irish Chancery
Officers Bill was read a second time.
W
ednesday was appointed for proceeding with the Pri-
soners' Counsel Bill.
The Earl of ROSSLYN presented a petition from certain
Clergy and Presbyteries of Scotland against the Scotch Uni-
versities Bill.—Adjourned.

. Lord Seymour arrived at Brussels from Paris the
day before yesterday, on his way to Aix-la-Chapelle. After
passing some time at that place, Lord Seymour, who is ac-
companied by Baron d'lvry, will return to Brussels in time
for. our horse races,

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNAL.

The letter of Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey to the electors
of Southwark, announcing his retirement from the repres
sentation of that borough, is a document deserving of some
notice at the present juncture. If we rem mber aright,
Mr. Harvey, when impertinently addressed some time back,
by a body calling itself, we believe, " The Southwark Re,
form Association," very properly resented that impertinertogs
and declared his determination to !oak, not to sectitith
but to the entire body of his Constituents) for a decision as
to his Parliarnentary conduct, The line taken by the non,
Gentleman on that occasion we thought manly, Spirited,
and of a nature to annihilate the delegate system altoge-
ther. It is, therefore, not without some surprise that we
find Mr. Harvey stating his resolve to have been not to
hold a seat, " unsustained by the firm and entire sanctions
of his Constituents." This, we apprehend, is a unanim'sy
too wonderful to be expected in any elective body. least
of all in one so composed as that of Southwark. • As
to the personal considerations by which Mr. Harvey
intimates that he has been to a certain extent actuated, we
must say that, as far as he leads us to judge of their nature,
they existed in as full force when he first stood fear the Bo-
rough es they do now. This, however, is a matter entirely
for Mr. Harvey's own consideration. The Ministeriah
journals insinuate, that the Member for Southwark has bean
an unsuccessful candidate for Government favours. On finis
Feint we know nothing. If the Hon. Gentleman did r.eilly
seek to :oin such a Ge'vernment as that now in offie,e, we
arosntghraztitto.lr b:itelitss upon an escape as signal' and con-solatory
gentleman who, as the story goe tan m-
ininsrt a risk of incurring the infliction of knigh'ss, hoo so i
d. To
ave jo!ned the incapables in their now inevitable declen-
sion, would indeed have been a calamity to so clever a gen-
ilonlqa as Mr. Harvey is on all hands admitted to be.
Still we must confess that, in the following passage in
the let er in question, the writer seems a little sore at
some neglect, real or supposed :—" I cannot consent
to be a mere mute Member--a passive numeral—flat-
tered -by a Treasury summons to swell the ranks of
a division upon any question which two contend-
ing parties shall so dexterously select, that no one is
committed save their blind adherents. It would be well
ter mankind if none others were made the dupes of the
game." To leave, however, the merely personal considera-
tions actuating Mr. Harvey, let us take his public grounds
cf action, as he himself states them. He sets out with •an
assertion, from which we must wholly dissent, no tells.us,
that it has ever been his opinion that " large constituencies
should stand aloof from party as the heralds of the
public. voice," &e. If this were the case, bow could a
Powerful
and unprincipled faction fear any formidable opposition to
their nefarious designs ? What, for instance, is it that at
the present moment makes the Ministerial faction tremble
It is to the combination,. the concentrated potver or
the Conservative party in the House of Commons, col -
s.isting in so important a degree of gentlemen represesit-
ins counties, and other of these large constituencies
spoken of by Mr. Harvey, that we are indebted for our
political safety at the. present turbulent period. Mr.
Harvey himself adr,sYds the whole of this,argument, when
stating, as besrl.bes, in the following passage, that it is not
against,tb' Conservative Lords, but aeainst the `,300 Con-
servs.tive Members of the Commons, the Radies.l portion of
the electors should exclaim :
" My friendsube not allured from the path of duty by idle
declamations against the Lords. There is a mote in the
nation's eye Which must be removed before you ran rightly
discern the Scat of the disease. The master vice is in the
scructure of the House of Commons; and it is r.at object
worthy of all inquiry, whence it is that 300 11,1endr.,.rs find
their way into a reformed House of Commons to 0p,,,05e what
is called,: by courtesy, a reforming Government ?' So long
as the Lords are thus powerfully sustained, the. :vlinisters will
have little else to do than to receive their Salaries, and the
people to pay them."
Of these 300 Conservative Memlsere here spoken of, the
greater portion are representatives t,f large constituencies,
and by their Combination into a 'powerful party, have effected
that object which Mr. Harvey oelieves to be an evil, but which
we believe is the highest stational good. Were the repre-
sentatives of large cons'auencies to hold themselves aloof
in the manner proposesd by the Hon. Gentleman, we cannot
see how they could.'oe of any use to their constituencies, or to
the nation at large. It is to the moral weight thrown
by such corrsoinations into the political scale that we
arc indebted for the' counteraction of such unpriticipled
coalitions as, that now formed between the Whigs arid Ra-
dicals. • sow by any other means could the country control
anti effectually resist such a Government as the prrssent—a
t'overnment so truly described by Mr. Harvey, that we
prefer giving its character in his words to repealing any pre-
vious description of it by ourselves? • Mr, 13arvey says—
" The Irish Tithe Bill is not the sole mssasure of the pre-
sent Covernmenarom which I dissent. 'Their entire policy is
temporizing and' timid—disheartenisig to their friends—while
it inspires their political foes with ',sudacious courage. A rude
and trembling hand is doing something to everything, and
doing nothing well ; and So matters will remain, until firmer
and sturdier hearts shall (strike out a course of government
having for its sole objee:ss the safety, happiness, and liberty of
the people."
Perhaps, after elk, it was the conviction, on the part of the
lion. Gentleman, that such a Ministry cannot possibly Ira
together, w'nich , induced him publicly to shake off the -
odium
of any connexion, however slight, with them ; and
thus to be enabled, at the next general election, to say, that
in addition to his other qualifications for representing a con-
stituency, large or small, he could boast the merit of having
despised and abandoned the Whig-Radical faction) while
yet they held the reins of power.—Times.
A letter has been addressed by Mr. O'Connell to the
members of " The National Association V Ireland," the
name adopted by the Association lately constituted for the
specific: purposes of obtaining equal, just, and satisfactory
reforms of the Irish Church and Corporations. The lettel•
most strenuously enforces the appeal already made to the
whole population of Ireland—Protestants, Catholics, Pres-
byterians, and Dissenters—to associate, combine, and. use
every censtitutional means to procure justice, complete,
and equal justice, for their common country. The imposi-
tion by which the Tories would mislead the Enesh farmers
its perSuadit°s them that the prosperity of Irel.and is incon-
sistent with theirs, is ably exposed by Mr, O'Connell, who
shows (what is indeed evident to all psasessing the least
knowledge of, international economy) tiaat the more the con-
sumption of Irish produce is increasesl in the Irish market by
improving the condition of the population, the less competi-
tion will he given in the English market. The intense and im-
placable hatred manifesto; towards Ireland by the Tories,
is traced to the blow ss.ni•A the Irish people have struck
against that accursed. faction, as well in the accomplish-
ment of:the Cath'oli'e Emancipation Act, as in the great.
and most efficiesit assistance afforded by them in effecting a
Reform of Ose louse of Commons. These offences are
mooardone:ole, and the fear that further jus-
ticeconcessionspotopular wo'.kl enable them to carry the pcsivlannre i
ipnbi
.eels
government into more perfect operst on, is the true cause
.oenlfoandriothuabnt
why the Tories would rather risTkhceirveil
admit 'her to a full participation of the rights enjoyed
by England mid Scotland.
of the enthusiasm with which the people of Ire-
land will respond to Mr. O'Connell's Address, In,
fact, they have already anticipated him, and the dif-
ficulty will not be to agitate, but to appease, Wrong
and insult have been cast upon the Irish people, and much
as they have already suffered—great as has been their for-
bearance—they have still sufficient sensibility to feel, and
what is better, sufficient power to redress the atrocious policy
pursued
against them. Nothing short of insanity could have
induced the Lords and Tories to act as they have done..
Before the lapse of three months, they would gladly com-
promise on the terms already offered them ; but we trust
that when agitation be once commenced, that it will net
be suffered to subside, until full and equal justice be 'not
only obtained by the people, but inflicted on the party
whose crimes have caused so many calamities to the country.
—Morning Advertiser.
Mr. O'Connell has published his first letter to the " Na-
tional Association of Ireland," which he treats as an institu-
tion aetive, efficient, and independent. This is an O'Cou-
nell trick, the character of which may easily be perceivell:.
It is scarcely, a week since the agitator issued his islands, to
for the formation of this new Catholic Association, and lie
is now beginning to address letters to it as a constituted
body. Is it possible to imagine a circumstance which could
show more clearly how confidently he relies upon the
prompt obedience of his slaves 'f It is evident from
the whole course of the proceedingthat Mr. O'Connell him-
self' is the new association, and the new association Mr.
O'Connell, and that 'the whole matter is merely a contrivance
1,1 him, itt one character, to write letters to kaa
;:a another, to which he insolently expects that the.
people of the three kingdoms will pay attention. There
is a strong probability, we think, that this ambitious
expectation will be disappointed, and that the great bulk
of the people of the United Kingdom will regard the let-
ters of Mr. O'Connell to himself, and the speeches he:
may make to his confederates and slaves in Ireland, wish
the indifference which they deserve. In the letter now
before us, there are only two passages worthy of remark.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny denounces
as a crime the conduct of a majority of the Irish Judges,
because, being of an age which would entitle them to as
retiring pension, they do not secede from the bench, in
order to enable him to dictate to his tools, Lord Met.-
bourne, Lord J. Russell, Lord Mulgrave, ,nd Lord AI or-
petit, by whom their places shall be supplied. This is a
specimen of his respect for a principle dear, and justly dear,
to the heart of every intelligent and reflecting Britain,
that of the independence of the Judges of the land. The
administration of the law in Ireland would be eminently
conducive, no doubt, to the peace and welfare of that
country it' Mr. O'Connell were to enjoy the power- to which
he aspires, of commanding its administrators to abdicates
their seats whenever it suited him to nominate their so, es