The Sun.
London, England, 1814-11-19 00:00:00

ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES

Th_e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, 011 1110 V-:
ing that the House should go into a Committee
of Supply, and the Speaker having left the Chair,
stated, that it was his intention to move that the
Bills of Exchange drawn for the service of the
Army,Extraordinaries be referred to the Com-
mittee. FrOin the appearance of the House,
however, at that time (there being very few Mem-
bers present), he would rather prefer merely to
Move the Vote for a provision for the current ser-
vice, and not at present to Attain the Hoitse by
entering into details of the arrangements. The
total amount of the Army Extra Ordinaries now re-,
qiiired was nearly ten millions, and he only pro-
posed trA' move, that a sun not, exceeding Eight
Millions be granted, to make good the Bills
drawn on his Majesty's Treasury for this service,
up to the Ist of November, 1814.
Mr. TIERNEY said, the Right Gentleman
now called on the House, to vote the sum of
eight millions, only because he wants it ; and
could he really think that is' the way we might
to go on ? He could see no difficulty in making up'
the accounts on the part of the Government ; and
yet the Committee were called on to,vote eight
millions without any particulars before t hem.—
The House should • bear in mind., that they bad
last year voted nine millions for this branch of
expenditure ; And of thi.J great sum no satisfac-
tory account whatever had been rendered, except
that it was expended on the Army. This is gone,
no one knows how, and yet we are to ask no
questions. He has even exceeded these nine 'fill-
lions by ten 'More, and an additional 850,0001.
from the Vote of Credit; Therefore the amount
was almost twenty millions. No doubt the Right
Hon. Gentleman thought that he should be able.
to carry his point, and perhaps he might be right.
All that lie himself could do, was to protest against
it ; but he would say it was the most indecorous
mode that had ever been adOpted. But lie would,
beg the Committee not to lose sight of the long
adjournment that might be in contemplation, and
connect this with the length of time they might
have to wait for the accounts.' He had under-
stood the Right Hon. Gentleman, that on this day
he did mean to-go into the statements at large,
and particularly into those of the subsidiary en-
gagements of this country.
The CtuNcELLoR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that he bad no other motive in urging farther de-
lay than that he conceived it might be convenient
to the House,to defer for a short time the expla-
nations in questian. For his own part, ,he was
neither unwilling nor unready to go into the sub-
ject at once. It was nothing less than the_extra-_
ordinary circumstances which must be in the re- ,
Collection of every Gentleman- in the House, that
would prevent tire accounts from being made up
for some time in detail ; and therefore he bad
thought it best to wait for a full explanation till
they could be produced. If the great amount of
the army expenditure was only looked at, it might
he thought that nothing could justify such a large
disbursement of the public money. , But it should '
be borne in mind; that the great object of this ex-
penditure had been attained ; and when he should
spew that these supplies had enabled Lord Wel-
lingtonto carry on a war' from the frontiers of
l'ortugal into France; he must think that this re
-
suit would be proved to have been as much the
consequence of the liberality of that House as of
any thing else. The accounts would clearly sbew,
that nearly nineteen. millions of money .had been
required for the Army Extraordinaries. He w;as
about to state how this money had been expended,
as nearly as possible. The amount of the hills
drawn on the Treasury from different quarters
amounted to nearly nineteen millions, the'princi-
pal of which were as follows :

From Guernsey and Jersey - - ' ,C. 24,60
Front Helic:oland , 46,000
From the North of Germany - - 1,411,000
From Spain, Portugal, and the South of France 8,612,000
Front Gibraltar and the Mediterranean - 4,259,000
FrOnt the West Indies - . &50,000
From North America - - 3,000,000
Front South America - - - - 283,000
These, together with other smaller sums, made the
amount very near nineteen millions,. as would be
clearly shewn when the accounts were made up.
It might be proper that he should-take a view of
the situation in which this country stood in 1812,
at the period when the explosion between Russia
and France was on the eve of taking place. Mini-
sters had felt that a great crisis, not only for this
country, but for all surrounding nations, was"
then at band. That power which should prevail.
Over the other in the contest, it was obvious,
would preside over the destinies of Europe. It
Fronce had succeeded in .effecting the subjugation
of Russia, England would have stood alone against
a world in arms. Feeling this, a larger expendi-
ture than the experience of former times had au-
thorised, appeared to Ministers justifiable at such
a period. But the House must be aware, that
nothing short of an expense that might be called
milimitedt, could have effected so grand an object.
But he %Veil recollected, that when it became his
duty to propose a measure, the object of which
was to. enable this country to carry on the war,
without makin any immediate increase in the
burthms of tl e p ople, the Right I-lon. Gentle-
man opposite (Air. Tierney) had said, " now
such funds were provided, he supposed they should
have vigorous war, and he should not be surpris-
ed if they were exhausted in one year. There had
h6en " vigorous War." In this respect the Right
Hop. Gentleman bad net been disappointed—but
in another he- had ; at least, that which he had
apprehended had 'not taken place : three years had
not annihilated those means which he had feared

would be exhaasted in one. To revert, however,
to the , general explanations which he bad to
.offer, he must observe, that when the de-
plorable• event occurred, 'which, by depriving
the country of a most atile and amiable man, he
had had the honour. of being placed in the
situation which he now held, Lord Wellington
had written home to say, that he found it im-
possible to undertake the great operations which
he had in view, with any military force, unless he
could be assisted with great pecuniary supplies ;
that be was, in fact, chained to' the coast ; but it
he Were supplied with at least 100,0001. per
month, he thought he could do much. It was
dee,med proper to supply him with 150,0001. per
month. He did.not know the precise date of the
arrangement, but it was some time in the stun-
mer of. 1812, and previous to his advance to the
battle of Sallatnanca ; and the course taken by
the Treasury shews how greatly these circum-
stances (the victories and the supplies) depended
upon one another. He would now merely state
the amount of the sums transmitted to that great
Commander in the course of the preient year.—
The bills drawn in the South of France amounted
to 3,300,0001. in specie, including, however, a
part which was carried to America by the detach-
. merit which embarked . from thence. There,was
exported to 'South America nearly 400,000/2and
to this Was to be: added nearly 12,000,0001. drawn
by the-Commissioners at • Gibraltar and the Me-
diterranean, which was for the most part applied
•to the same military purposes. By what he had
stated, he trusted he had sufficiently established
the necessity of making exertions beyond all cal-
culation. It' required all the ability and all the
combinations of that great Commander, the Duke
of Wellingfon, to effect- the movement 'of a large
army through a country so ravaged. It was a.
sort of•proverb in Spain,.that with a small army a
General might march through their land, but a
large force must he starved in it. But, aided by
the co-operation of his Government, the Duke of
Wellington was enabled to march a large force
through that country, and procure them full sup-
plies. He would now state something of the amount
of assistance given to our Allies, after the glorious
7eveTses of fortune to the enemy in the North of
'Europe. The: House would recollect, that by the
• Treaty with Austria, Russia, and Prussia, it was
agreed to advance 5,000,0001. to those Powers,'
supposing the war to last a whole year, and the pro-
portion of months to Austria and. Prussia, and
font. months to Russia, to enable their troops to
return. He had 'now to say, that the whole of
these Sums had been paid, with the exception of a
trifling difference of balance to Russia, which had
arisen out.of a slight misunderstanding respecting
the Russian fleet which had been in our ports.—
Some doubts had arisen as to the party liable.to,
thiS expense, and, thiS point .was left to be set-
tled between the Noble Lord now at Vienna
and the Russian Government. The amount of the
sums paid was in the proportion of seven months
of a third of the • 5,000',000/. to Russia, or
1,250,0001. ; 'and the amount of the sum in dis-
pute might be about 100,0001. To Sweden we
had• stipulated- to pay 1,200,0001. or 100,0004
per mouth, provided the War lasted a year. By
an.additional article SWeden received three months'
subsidy for the return of her troops, besides the
five, months' payment, for their services, Which'
made in all 800,0001. The Danes, by the Treaty
with them, which was mentioned in the House
10.5 - yei—ir,Wiii•e-trrfarrast 10,000 men,, and were
to receive 150,000 • a year for their maintenance.,
There was also the annual' payment to Sicily of
400,0001._ Hanover was to furnish 15,000 men,
men, and receive 47,5001..; but only a part of
this sum had been paid by this country, and even
thiS was to be refunded ; so that. ultimately this
country would not bear any part of the expense.
Portugal, as hail been often stated, required to be
assisted with 2,000,0001. a year; with Spain, how-
ever, no such regulation had been made; but
1,000,0001, a year had been given from the Vote
of Credit to Spain, of which an aceottnt had been
kept by the Treasury here,' and would be produced
when wanted. Respecting the engagement of the
subsidiary corps of Hanoverians, they were at
first employed under the Crown Prince of Sweden;
but they had since been occupied in garrisoning
the "Netherlands. To this corps seven months
subsidy had been paid; five for their service, and
two for their return : the other part of the ar-
rangement he bad just explained. The total
amount paid might; ' therefore,, be stated as fol-
lows

For seven months to Austria - - ' £972,000.
To Russia - - - 1,2250,000
To Prussia , - - - .. 955,000
To Sweden - , - - • 800,000
To Portugal, nine months - - ,- .1,500,000
Spain, seven months - - - 592,000
Hanover,-seven•months - - - 47,500
Denmark, for the year - - ' • .150,000
Sicily - ' - - - - 400,000
The total sum remaining to be furnished was less
than 7;300,000/. so that, with the Vote of Credit
passed for the 3,000,0001. the falling short was.
only 100,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman then
observed, that he had entered into details which
were not strictly connected with the' subject . be-
fore the House; but till the accounts could be
completely made up, a perfect view of the Army
Expenditures could. not possibly. be taken ;, but
the amount proposed to be voted would about ba-
lance the apparent deficiency. The difference to.
be made good would be about 2,000,000/.. to li-
quidate the remaining excess of the Army Extra-
ordinaries, and this was what he now proposed
to take._ The Right Hon. Gentleman then ob-
served', as a ground of high congratulation to the
country, that a very considerable saving .of ex-
pence had already accrued ; no less, indeed, than
about 2,000,0001. a month beloW that of last
year, and, whenever it might. be possible to bring
the war with America to a close, we should have,
the prospect of so considerable a reduction in the
public charges as to'hold out the brightest roS-
pects. ; It might not be too much to expect that
this reduction would ainount 'to five millions a
month. At present we must only look, to a-conti:.
nuance of great exertions. The House would
hardly think it necessary, that he should go into
any farther explanations at present ; although he
should propose with confidence, though certainly
not without regret, so large a suns as 8,000,000/.
for the Ekti•aordinary Expencers of the Army.
Mr. TIEUNEY said, that if ever there was a time
when we must feel ni.ore regret thau at another,

10

Ii

r

. ,
, .
being
o‘n told of the necessity for nes% Alllhe
exertions, that occasion was the presento're 'lithe
had been said only confirmed him still shore votel'i,
opinion, that The House ought not to
sum that was asked for, without those deli lj
tary explanations which had 'been defdr it stlii
esifar4yaitbitelid, it would not do its duty. -i°.cotoe 'jar
I have anitoihyte
tifietlisigeu,lrt
et
„Ht
o.lo,lol:::ldGmeeitnisi
11: evtnohietaenat
Icltccoosi:lo:eti,scierebii/,
was the usual custom when moneY ''''::arc;,i,
to say that great exertions were neeee "Iv%!
we now know the meaning of the ii
great exertions were now spoken Of, it :of ,sil,el
to say, " they are exertiona.,:f the estei'iv to '''r
you need not be informed, but have o;l,:ccatcrio'.
them by vast supplies." In this way 1-1;y ,isOrt,
ment has dealt unfairly by the House' et 'Tilts
inn that any engagement of wirater- ter 'llO4l
which they might thi,,k proper to e°„.l, "rrs
would be complied with, without itlrjt it't,tf
he begged the House to consider whet'letiot'',,,,
r%nveoectir.e.nirlisttt,
rt
01i:bee wassal allowed
evident
e itlictlouisti:tiloit) ce then'. tile''
go hula' lii yi i1,',0.
curred since the 30th of July, wit't°l:"".tieloi;:ii;
not in the power of the Right Hon' Gel:et al'rittP
make Parliament acqoainted. li"t in atsiflll:
their confidence, he had dealt with the ';a tbefr of
ought, and were accustomed to be lisl'il'ltietiPfd
hie would say, as an independent 1)4
Parliament,' that it was utterly intP°ssl. &el
on in this way. The Right 110000°00tro
tleman puts down twenty millions qui' , a 0 1
ni cilooiebv
of paper, and asks it for with as
when he (Mr. T.) first' came into r'loll,ol
hundred or two thousands used to be 3,criogiryi
Mr. Pitt ; and this, too, without all..ss 3011,10
of our inquiries as to what is the ‘v°l"' sal,/
are the workmen that th's
enormous
icer oitei
pay. If we make any inquiries, the le rllOO
" What ; would• you wish to palse)c,„"oo,ll,,iic
Government ?" They now say, 1" o,ilci
millions ; furnish us with eight, andr.°:ctidtte4
you arguMents for the other two. (L-'3tel al' se
He Would say, that if the House conseo;io"s„c)
demands, it would stand in a most to*' atatAlbifi
titude before the country. It ti``" illoo:104
that great exertions were necessarY• ? fi', Abf
knoW what these' great exertions areilooodJtlitl
seems to have been, that the Right P- r
Gentleman was ortt in his calculati°:is„.os;:tl
got Parliament together before Chrh; 010"elfitt
because it is before Christmas "thnt:,..a lid' 01
wanted, we must-vote it without lie''bt 'sof
his own part,' he would declare that
etottro,;lo
actuated by the smallest wish to thre'in, lie (0111
ments .in the' way of Government ; ''1",(1 si,Cil'O'
assert that this Was the most tineqe, af Peri°
ever matte upon the blindest confideli 00'' ift
iIP'
merit. He would ask whether th,e footle I/
troops in garrison in the Netherlatroj reV
lou;rtbiolyef the Treaty
oTl:lx?ecallitileyeqn7lfNevriC',t tl
00s tile 11°.
4‘m
. 1 hey 010.1._.-±m •T• tinuel" ee •fr
1. terney con 600 eerie,
pay these troops ;
good tgrounds for refusing his e°ll t ice be'
or answeredpil.u‘l'.a,;lpe(::tew:cea
viirl)l-j et
I i IC;
ell-gi 1 lit41:11
vote, for he' had now ascertained tt'a. to ' 1
d 'le" is
pair) by Hanover ? atIP re i
The CHANCELLOR of the B%G°E to t 1 for t
that he had Said that the money ,v3solteu old'
by Hanover, but that would be ace;ilbe v,e,` 0
the country, and one-half of it %Oil' ver?,‘P,
--I‘„l,r--T,..IE"LY •—" Repaid by 1:P,1'11V-iv Q''''
Mlle CJIANCELLOR Of 'the Exctlfor 13'
Mr. -TraaNEY.—" That's sdficient t 134
„ore'', cl'il
pose-",-7--(A laugh,) , _ le.
Mr. TIERNEY resumed. It then -I,Per o"'tipe"A
Hanover was to' have lenity shot,'" "1i the:oof"
blessed treaty,, and we were to paY %se P-,,,
ces of the 75,000 troops ; while hee'ro litireiiees;
has been advanced to the dignitY rthe e%/34 tlilt
she is to be let off from her share 01." to s'lo,ej
Did the Right Hon. Gentleman Ill°1: otbe:calid,
Hanover has no money ? Was it 11°0d be pt',
that the 'people of this country sht°lch a mai,r 0/it
on. to pay away their money io ,5..,ir of f; 1).J1
when it is a fact, that every fart°ll".'"oes' or,
goings must be made good bY neWstve bitlal tilt?
was still more extraordinary, 6' Rastnr '1)10'
for shipping ; and because, owe bsig for l:ii,
had come here, we were to paY aslivras berth'
had
of war. He wished to know if it - P'l ‘.
, ArniY „I IV
derstood, that the whole Of the -ticarr,;oo4s,'
naries, exclusive of what may V:, ivitbe ot
peesent moment, was included itt
ell of 0) it
now on the table ? (The Chaoe,en,, liesoe,eo
chequer MIS understood to atts'-}jere SO Ilio °,re
was very glad that it WB5 so• for, t°:;( (.11'
.use in detaining the 'Committee ; . deal o*.ot
justice,. they do hear with a
plaisance, the propositions of theYtgilfil4
out time fullest
Gentleman. He, only wished &II licatioi„, , v
..teat itit.iotooli.l,,
vote money so as tb encourage ar,cotocotio' )111;11,01
amount of the Estimatesl(llt 11(i)aIli I Obfee:lllii‘i.eeli: tl4 .a'
~,.
sters in a -Vote of Credit, heYe'ri 01)'ve!'
no right to go line sixpenee.,„ i.t 0,011 fie,' tie
The CHANCELLOR Of the 12,1 C- f Mr.,,,111i-t PC
ed, in answer to the questio Of
~,,trkPol",0110
whether the while ex-pence of tie: Tile `5OlO
was included in the I 9,600,°°°V ed t ritY,"
ht, iev , cc- iv A
meant to say was, that he ,aut',l.l,e -,,,
amount would cover the exc4o'use,---c Orre,i
except the items before the 1-- that tb on ‘1;141-
Finn. Gentleman .complaiacd; jet- 01) Alioli ,
fo.r which the HOuse was .complain
1`), Il'ililt°
vide, as they must have been "le sessicifieDtal
previous to the close of the Knot' retl i'.oo i
caredt I e
before been submitted to Pr
etas elite:oll4
observe, that all the engagenlCl' tbe °‘
011111 11'
his Majestv• Ministers. 060? 1 hcertioos, 11)r
had received the sanction of 1,05-11:'; 046
treaties conduced with gussi3(ie Koo /e 5 lu 11;1
gelatin"
abtiiJntigi t°
Housesi'lal().i e:t)h' e al
,'etc,.o,. ,S :15',;:ell 'lit:15:1 rii:i .
and . Denmark, were then ffia,iitostalle_o'de. leui
was surprised, under such circi i be ui
~05eitotie
this ground complaint shOlici:i tp ifillotr`for It
Right Hon. Gentleman wish. !her t°lla; 4
Ministers terms which wcre l'i, , bei!',00,04,.,
patiently endured b arty 11111-11"1 1. ilitY
foulo 10.
y ' )0::51) the f °Or
had said, that with liiin to ,hat , ,te 010
le o .bil, 4 10
excuse their not having clot _cst ,•ic 4
The inilw: 00" •
la
to see accomplished. Id 11°' 00
jug up the accounts wou
till'
their not being produced. ,ad sti
Mr, TIERNEY declared he e

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It 16
. .
1let„„'`1, and w , . ,
h4icti kit t otiui thank the night Tjuu. Gen-
sib(lleter,
wit) Pit words into his mouth which la:
et,, cred He had said, if it was impos
the proque„
ref atted ill t accounts of the whole 10,000,0001.
~„";oo Iv!, :Army Extraordinaries, that was no
"" 5 3)3 Pirl f f ticli t ' 0 them should not be produced,
41, be Ain's 's ~ e . •
The rias wiliir,:ll y had the documents to shew,
pra,
.ettati IA to vote.
a' Ihe cP4--.°'-rt of the EXCHEQUER said, the
Itad asked '.
I:: y b„, was
"ters " incur'. i
to cover expenses which had
Paid Coold •,, er , and which, whether. Ali; bti. by or. J Stay their conduct or-not, must 13
tht74 lie, 1:', ciountry, Whatever their conduct
itof 'llotild , "°Ped, when the proper time came,
Iv, whatev "e able fully to justify themselves ;
il'l'lteter el. it should prove to have been, and
'led holt' 1
lc to • eat they might hereafter be ex-
%lets ' ' the sun,
Ali-
-1;4,,i tertai , .3 called for must be paid.
ith,.'ibility;nlY made this detna4 on their re-
itit„4:riti'el•t4cviof aft': (el; in his opinion, it was for the
Public that it should be made
thi,',lnobstnng..eitoopen.to Parliament to. institute,
iti`l'llt of• 'il t period, such enquiries into the
11:"ap,),,a""uself and his collea'gnes as the case
liiil.Gt,,l,lr t" reqiiire. He was glad the Right
tl„:4ll(l,asentali admitted the work they had had
Itt, lie mistiltme• Since he acknowledged it was
414„ter4 To:11 admit it ought.to be paid for.
ti4t, tie iliirol' denied having said thei work was
ti,.,,, lai t!ie
~sta (I he hoped it would be (lone,.
11! eft,,p), Congress of Vienna would defint-
11,q)t.CHA4'eie the work of peace.
)''ii"°" It CLLC)It of the EXCHEQUER was glad,
1),:.11. L.,' li• Gentleman had given this explo-
-11,',N, "e liatisaid there was a great difference
ell " atilt,.
tt'l44llPaYing and talking about it. He hoped
ste 4N It lie had said this. After what had
t' 'lit 111)1.sh
'''lidroor,. ed, lie trutetl the House would
)iiii Titiacety of payine now. The Right [Jon.
tq'sof would liereaf'ter have .many opportit-
'l' t'llki
V%iltt a f rig 'shout it—(A laugh).—He had
'll- "? t)bservations upon another stiblect
K-11% 'ld lie,.,
•,, el), , a toticbed upon by the Right Hon.
)fr)tlieet44: Ile (Mr. Tierney) had asked, with
tt, bothe 11, • ' they were
,!4t
;I,l4"tatet)ctiti 'Y
.flanover ? These troops, be
1114i'i'lle; t':'eFt employed by us in the Same way
t ,'''lat,,t-`)°l)% taken into our pay for the ac-
te tti,,eit cif British objects, and bad there-
kit 4'itti right tti look to England for pay as
Vtltit►'s, Wir •: 04 liry 1. tenibergers, or the soldiers of
'tl ito te rukht bsidize. When llano-
,it cip.,
\__ 6 Sit
;711, t)f if "te employed in any way for the
ii'4t '''ty 310Ver for benefit Hanover
1•1.,,.. by
I, .• such
y J tie convention made subsequent to
t4:liv;tll.4:llto'r,,c:ifi Chattoiont, only the four great
Z'l-a illro, 1g the Grand Alliance had been
t,,,,, to k,,,.
%Pk"' fie . ''''ll a body of troops on foot till
4-141,441 lin3ity was decided.. None of the
,'l4et,',4'4,„e liad :,,,. called-' to (to this. Ba-
tlt:NlL"olib,„. , -01 upon
I:Pai),;tiloi, filP.•",aud othercauntries, ii.iore coisi_.
1,, tft,,.• liiiri, .'"over, had not been required to
it't 4 t' 114
r't_tl_leir t...-.xpeirce. ; and there existed,
i4.it Nits:ll4e
ove4S!.)ll for calling upon Hanover to
' ill Of I/ r tt. He had before explained,
Syr' Ile t. Nov
‘41,10,. oid
tl, er being erected into a ktng-
I, more 411 ti "t ktiow that it was necessary to
li ' ebtl 'Et Sill •
\ttiltiott cert., m. ).leCt. It was a matter which
ii,“ try. ' %Le :-!ilgtanct, as by making Hanover
ost The '''''llied • ltrtional claim on this
ctiLlitatio -11 a n) " a(vi. in the ne-
Tkctectil -ti of Germany
of an .e.iiectoi-ate
111„ttltil 'c in, `-rerrnany was objected to, andi it
kii(et;;4gerec/Propriate where the sovereignty
tibit,tflei °age/. peetive, and where in consequence
lt,„-`iol:•Pris ,i- ell'illed Electors. He had been
V' s j'r e- 4t tne observations made with re-
-11/4" il P"ir) . Russian fleet,h. I► had
4 ()ill. .11, ill g the. w lic 1
11,tttiiiii„ilavy. .„,t),.l)r harbours, or co-operating
f
vs'li t` ye„ll6'Nothing had given the people a
Ititilictlaim (le:lce in the alliance formed be-
ilk. eof ti , al."! Russia, so much as the cir-
10411,iNill l'it fleet being confided to our care.
ititil
4,,
to Note
„ strougly pledge the Emperor
k t k:(1 heed magnanimous perseverance
,)'elitti 1, 1,,,,t1' crowned with such glorious re-
tlll4,e)• ti,‘''t ill, er ail circumstances, dispose him
1,1 41,4' 1,, - war to the last extremity. No
(14'4
t't hi, 4)'.ti(.l by the people of this country
tltti t`l4ll th,'")", he'paid with greater cheer-
t, tl, • at .Qted for the pay of the Rub-
t 'l,t
AN, lIN
Ott), t,,
."hserrecl, that on this question of
Lt tt ttr,,t;'"aordinaries., the details were insuf-
-okqe4leriotlYs,e4lailation, and that when laid be-
lolit(l,ll,4 of _they would appear to be merely
''‘, 44.41 joniminissaries' drawing' to such
loth
40 °. 1111 t• Unless he was misinformed,
\lee.' ~, account from 1807 till now had
t4','ltter'll examned, either on the affairs-
tkl,‘l tjiltdp.
tlierahlaie,.a.)l),tt he Per.ir sumo, or America.
,1, its 'it for Pi . find this denied ; but he
l'Oitttit,` bee l'aPers ex it • t •- of that sub-
1-lt,, teved
~ p,aita my
~tilt t„ (fuel it that the Chancellor of the
li th to,c le more information on the
ill t„, in,„l,•
1 tis llte •14111, "elite than other llemberS.—
\tlf tile I°f the IL , . 1
L tk, ,'en• ?;neat ler() woo common( -
t ~,kiti,, .1"s1111 Oitilitnot
to stand in the
I,lllii'. A atiotli ~,. .
(Ito tpe • ceatints of the Com-
tiltti; COl iet, f,, 'a '
kt Iqt -' wi • 'tare of the expenses was
•,, ervi lich the furnisher received certi-
ilit,q, ce,
t•'•t';1) ', and `sir
a Spanish army land-
't,'")),'. q carrui
1,,,, ,t lotdd
„,_ ,iitg on war among tile
I!l:l,4diqi Ile ~,,Itlre similar certificates ; what
•,,1 (%(,1(, Illtilete !len' ?,. Conceive, then, what
1,414`t, 4,„' theill el would do with them. In
ktttiz,4tr''ittee at 50 or 60. per cent, discount.
Ith• 444 were ~ .• • .
kt-•
, IN. t,Ll,4_
t„
~.. ppointed to examine, it
a, t Or En.
441 rtjh What
%-••• .tiriii>bei• received Dot more
Olt '4il'e"tes 0': %as Paid by the British public.
1.01,--t4,.. t, a ~i,re bought u at a discount, by
1!1"e )1•41,„,,s
0 lt,'• it, It • ,coold , • fortunes(n had been made in
Ilq.4'"1; Ile - "I'M' lessons,• ve this
~ it,l 1 114(i
se :, j to Prove , ),t., 4 t't,
.11a4 5.. ca a man two or three days
ktlii,ll,ere "liieti
." Per cent. by the purchase of
0-‘ii)t'lllt t(;)titt (4selo',ali, yet to he bolight at from 25
ilvt.tih.ll, t 1,111,4' ,"t• lie would ask what Go-
i, ar 1, ,r)tni.,
.e oeon iliont, treat after year:
i .1. ,ii,t(i '.eilons .
•,..,1i,it,,,,,,.. ) It, t, , . stele
,1.,:;t :1,14444 hiillio ri(-t, arisen
..oin.r forward? •111.:
1.,
out (it the. vet.
i,4:tito, 111.,„ ils had b• • •..1. I
.who,
~t ~i I, 1,1. ?,iq ~i, . . ttn . expLnt ic A
•,,, , ti,, i 4 heedde served pat -ticidarly- i;
• 4,1, eit shove 6,. , ,
';,o, t ticcle ti, '')111-ott- forward. Ever,
' ti.. -(illt' ' ""t e("•'Id be 'gotten in the
, 4, 4tid il4lll OS, ,i,
~ :-1t.,." Viii,.•
..,,v(r..slikr had sold at a.iargedis.
k,'„, 4,01, ty t,, , I y .111 e,, 'is had been used. t
•1,.' ;4 3 tii:,, ',t_ p„,),,.. , .
'il,jel'` lie
rtes, eeht
.','"1.1 still buy
Itt,•,. • ttt,,,,0 up node rertifi
1-14 Q ~ "!t, hot was afraid of tai•
411cteer thd nQt know what to

.10 with the paper, and sold it for what it would
fetch; • -The great fault was, a total want of the
examination of accounts. How would such delay
tell in the private concerns ot any individual or
company ? In public affairs, hqwever, examina-
tion was put off, so as to be on the average from
lf! to 15 years- of arrears ; and then people could
only justify themselves by mustering up an old
document, or, perhaps, by having preserved their
different vouchers. The first thing to he done in
this matter was, to establish a Committee, to
form a proper and adequate system for the regu-
lation of large expenditures. The war in Spain
began in 1808, and it was only in 1813 that an
auditor was sent Out ;. till when, he was told,
that the Commissioners defied ,any examination.
It therefore appeared absolutely .necessary, that
examination should be had, and a better -system.
adopted.
Mr. GORDON said, that, as he understood what
fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we
were paying a subsidy to Sicily, which, he also
understood, was engaged in •%var with Naples,
with which latter Power, as far as he could leat;n,
we were virtuallyat peace. It, therefore, seemed
extraordinary to subsidize Sicily in a ‘var between
her and Naples. We appeared desirous and anxi-
ous to get rid of our money to one power or an-
other. The only hope of economy he had was in
his Right Hon. .Friend on the Treasury Bench
(Mr. Huskisson), who had been such an advo-
cate for retrenchment, and who, he trusted, would
give good advice to his colleagues.
The CHANCELLOR of the VaNCHEQUER said, that
certainly the affairs ot Europe were not settled till
the lusiness of the Congress was finished. He
could not see how a Committee of tlr. House
could settle the audit of the punlic accounts.. If,
the house could have done it, it would have done j

it long ago. • ,It was a' particular object of Mr.
Pitt. His Noble Friend the Marquis. of Lansdowne
had done as muctras he could to effect it, when in
office; and all must remember the assiduous ef-
forts of an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. liankeS). It
was not the fault of that House that the -defects
existed.. • Commissaries in Spain had. sent in their
accounts. • How far it was in the power of auditors
here or abroad to Obtain perfect • information,
he could not pretend to say. There might be
very considerable fraud lying under the shape of
even fair vouchers : hut he hoped and trusted that •
no pains and no exertion would be wanting to
examine and to unravel the whole business to the
very bottom. He was surprised to 'hear any thing
like general reflexions thrown .oat on the Com,
tnissariat. It was an arduous duty, and it would.
be a painful return to the conscientious and de-
serving. to be classed among .those 'on whom sus-
piciouN might fall. fir held •tine character of a
Commissary to be a most
,houourable one, and de-
serving, if well sustained, of the highest reputation.
There should be some discrimiMation between ob-

jects of praise and of censure. Government would
be fully repaid, if by the examinations, truth was,
stripped, from falsehood, and inteL;rity.from disho-
nesty. It was an observatio❑ of Mr Burke appliea
ble to this case, that the councils of necessity were
seldom wise. He hoped, hoWever, that the.sys-
teM, on the hole, would he found good ; though
from want Of z ltu evious system, sufficiently di-
gested and. esablisherl,. there might have .been
some expensive
.arrangements. • There was no..
doubt that the yxpense had been greater than it
would have b,Am, could we have procured cash ;
but yet, in spite of all untoward eircum.stances,
the exchange continued improving.- Nothing
sheaved more clearly t vigour and prospetity of
British commerce. Whether we should have such
another war 'as the last, God only knew ; •and
might God avert ! The difficulties attending the
war with America he had n6u•cr hidden ; yet it
could not press particularly upon our resources,
as in the case of the late European war. Our
Peninsular debts we had nearly ascertained ; and
there appeared to remain about 7 or 8 millions of
dollars.

Mr. BARING,' in explanation, remarked, that
the abuse was inseparable from the system. A
Commissary hired a muleteer for a bit of paper,
and tnen some friend of his, or any other man,
bought it for a third of its nominal value, and
brought it .at Ai good document to Somerset-
house, and by this sort of traffic immense for,
tunes were made. This practice bed been carried
to an enormous extent. Five, millions, he re-

heated, might have answered the objects of-ten.—
The Chancellor of the 'Exchequer had stated, that
three or four Commissaries had delivered in their
accounts ; but lie had not Said that those accounts
had hem) audited Or examined. As to the diflicul-

ties respecting public accounts, if they were to be-
lieve the Right Hon. Gentleman, examination was
impracticable. How did all the writer powers of
Europe proceed in such matters ? Ile believed they
were very particular and careful on that subject.
How was it in India affairs In them all accounts
were examined and audited under the manage-
ment of persoPs coniersant in business; as cor-
rectly as in the private concerns of any inetehant.
This was a species of absolute safety, romparesl
to the loose system of our public expenditure.---
Mr. Burke having been mentioned,- he recollected
an observation of his on this point. He said he
would as soon attack the prerogatives
Crown, as the Treasury on the mode of making
up their accounts.
Mr. ROSE entered into a statement of the step
taken by-Mr. Pitt for better auditing the public-
accounts. The process bad been since his time
gradually amended, and non, scarcely admitted of
td inrmal iMproveoien.t. At any rate, Govern-
ent had no possible motive for screening any
Commissary guilty of peculation.
Mr. BAnING mentioned ,as an instance of the
intolerable delay which'took place in auditing the
public accounts, that the accounts of the late Sir
3rook Watson were not settled to this day. lie
(scribed the -difficulty of improvement in this
branch, .to the pertinacity of sonic people in.pro-
iecting their little interests in the observance of

errant antiquated forms at the E;(chequer. No
.ther country in Europe kept its accounts in the
•atlle Slovenly manner as this.
Mr. BAN:us 'also thought our system of audit
ar from being perfect, and clogged with various
nnecessary forms. This vas so much the case,
lat, intbe Exchequer, words and figures u;cre

dnsrantly. used, which even those most versant
in thy-Office did not knostv the meaning of. The

~_~.---.

House shneld never rest satisfied till it arrived it
that perfection in the mode of audit which was
visible in any great merchant's counting-house,
Mr. ROSE observed, in explanation, that the
Exchequer process did not apply to. accounts until
they had been audited ; it, therefore, could be no
cause of the delay.
.‘
PoNsoNay remarked on the unsatisfactory
mode in which this immense grant of 8,040,0001.
was proposed. Suppose it to be voted, and also
that they were afterwards asked why, the only
answer they could give was, that it was to be paid
for military expenses. There was one paper on
the table purporting to be an additional article to
the treaty'with Sweden, dated so far back as Oc-
tober, ISI3, and though it stipulated a large sub-
sidiary allOWance to that:power, this was the first
day any notice had been taken of it. There was
another thing which struck him as most extraor-
(hoary. Islalltlfe former subsidy, we were told,
.was still to he paid to Sicily, because she was.not
at peace. Were we then, to pay that Govern-
ment a subsidy, because froM some reason or
other, with which we had no 'connection, it still
chose to remain at war ? At present, he•supposed,
the war was between Sicily and Naples ; but
were we not at peace with the latter ? or what.
poSsible interest had we in such a war ? By whom,
also, lie should be glad to know, if the statement
could be made with propriety, Was the sum for
the maintenance of the fifteen thousand Hanove-
rians now in Belgium to be tra.d, as he understood
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was
'not to fail ultimately either on this country or on
Hanover ? He hoped it vas to be paid by Hol-
land, or what the newspapers now called the
kingdom of Belgium. The Dutch, in his opinion,
ought not to receive too much' assistance from
this country. They ,should rely on their own re-
siuses, and not he taught to throw the burthen
of their protection upon England.
The CHANCELLOR of the ENCHEQUER, observed,
in reply, that the additional Article to the Swe-
dish Treaty might certainly have been before the
House long ago, and he could only ascribe its
non-appearance to some oversight. The sub 7
stance of it, however, as well as the substance of
the Supplementary Treaty of Chaumont; was stat-
ed tit the House in the last Session. As to Sicily,
our Treaty with that Government went ton totally
different principles from those which influenced
our engagements with the Continental Powers.—
The King of 'Sicily had lost Naples through his
adherence to our alliance, and we had hence been
,led, not only to maintain a large force in that
Island, but also to subsidize the Government.—
The treaty of ISO with that Power was made to
continue during the war, in which it was engaged
with Naples.; and as that war still subsisted, .the
Sicilian Government still considered itself entitled
to some subsidiary assistance till an arrangement
was made. Naples had signed no more than an
armistice with this country.
MC. Possoxav explained.
Mr. WH“BREAD expressed his satisfaction, that
the subject now before the House had produced
the discussion which had taken place, because the
country must necessarily contribute with greater
cheerfulness, when trey saw that the hurthens
imposed on them underwent the scrutiny of that
House. Many relevant and important topics had
been introduced, and few could be more so than
the subject of the' audit of public accounts. To
that, however, he would not now advert. The
-Right Honourable Gentleman bad stated, that
A4triti was the only European Power which
had concluded a peace with Naples. He might
have added, that this Treaty was a. Treaty of
Peace and Alliance ; and that we were moreover
pledged by our minister to the Neapolitan govern-
ment, that if the King of Sicily should refuse to
accept indemnities for his Neapolitan dominions,
the treaty between him and this country should
be at an end—(Hear,- hear !)y-This he knew to
he correct ; he had it upon authority ia which he
placed the fullest confidence. We were thus pay-
ing Sicily with one hand to carry on war against
Naples, whilst with the other we were signing an
engagement to compel Sicily to abandon that war
.---(Hear, hear !)—All these things were well un-
derstood on the, Continent, although withheld
,by
Ministers from the House of .Commons. (Here
the Chancellor of the Exchequersignified dissent.
If the Right Hon. Gentleman was unacquaint-
ed with these circumstances, he must lament the
want of confidential communication among Mi-
nisters themselves. Tile circumstances were kin-
doubtedly strange, but they were neyertheless
true. W! at wasthe original principle out of which
our relations
.with Sicily had arisen. ? It was the
political security of Europe ; and it was in con-
sideration of its fidelity and adherence to its en-
gagements with this country, that we had g'ua-
ranteed to: tire Crown of. Sicily the security of its
own 'dominions. He would not then stop to t nveil
the mystery: that hung over the history of the
protection which we were .bound to afford to.
the Royal Family of that Kingdom. One
Member; of•it, • the Queen herself; •was known to
have been expelled, and 'Ji' have:died an exile
In a foreign land. All these things, however, re-
quired explanation ; and if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was incapable of furnishing it, he regret-
ted that he should know so little of the secrets of
Iris colleagues. He coaCeived, too, that the com-
mittee ought to have been informed as to the na-
ture of our engagements with Belgium,—whether
it was truly stated, that the repair and re-establish-
ment of the fortresses in that country would cOst,
the sum of ten millions ; and if so, whether they
were to be reparied at our expense.. The Right
lion. Gentleman had thought popes to treat this
allusion to Hanover as a matter of
,mere indiffer,.
encc. The change in the form of its Government
was undoubtedly so, if disconnected with_ the
circumstances that attended it. But was it not
a matter of serious consideration, if Ha-
nover, by gaining new territory and aggran-
disements, should, yet be more likely than be-
fore to lead this country into Continental embar-
rassments ? He should remain satisfied if he
saw but the slightest prospect held out of the mo-
ney being ever repaid ; but, other wise, he must
assume it as granted that it was gone for ever.
The Right Hon. Gentleman bad at length begun
to takof America, as if we were engaged in a
frightful contest. Such as it was, however,: we
were fairly in it, and the battle must be fought as
it become the character of this country to fight