The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-22 00:00:00

-as The men totild procure no employment, many of them, With
their families were thrown on the parish.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that at the end of the war it
was found that there was not sufficient work for all the men
employed in the several dock-yards. To avoid the necessity of
discharging them, in consequence, it was offered to continue
them at such work as there might be for them to do, but at a
lower rate of wages. The men received this as a oon b, erns
and
were very glad to continue hi the dock-yards upon the t
offered them. In the course of last winter and the autumn,o
th*y expressed some dissatisfaction at the amount _of
mthenirt
wages, and were told they were at liberty,,to
e seoelfrtripldrd
so,
wherever they could obtain better pay-
and the reason why this happened to have taken place in Kent,
more than in Plymouth and in other places, was, because, on
Cle men at Plymouth being told that they were kept in em-
ployment at the reduced wages only in order to keep them from
the-distress of being without work, said
they were centeip-
t
n
and continued their places. As to the hey sai
families of the sh
wrights discharged from the dock-yards in Kent having become
chargeable to the parish, that was their own fault ; there was
plenty of work for them to do in the private Clacks, but they-
had entered into a combination, and placed themselves under
the direction of a Committee, who fixed certain prices, which
the masters would not give. He could assure the Honourable
Baronet, that if all the shipwrights who were not absolutely
wanted in the dock-yards should be discharged, the. distress
-would. be much greater and more general.
After a few words from Sir E. K NAT c
Mr. HUSKISSON said lie had reason to know, that there
was at this time a great demand for workmen in the private
yards, and that all the men who had left the public docks would
have found emplment there but for the mischievous spirit of
combination which influenced them. Since the repeal of the
combination- laws, the workmen in this and other trades had
committed such eircesses as, if they were continued, wouli
compel the house to resort again to the former laws, the repeal
of which he feared had prejudiced some very valuable interests,
and had, in fact, been injtrious to the workmen themselves.
He knew that there were many persons now ready to give the
workmen employment, -and, the saternents of those persons
placed the conduct of the workmen in such light as made hint
feed more-indignation than lie now thought fit to express. If
they had in .any instances become burdensome to the parishes,
it must have been through their own misconduct.
Mr. H UME was so far from blaming the Government for
the course which they had adopted towards the shipwrights,
that he thought it extremely humane to keep them at low wages,
until the arrival of the merchant-trade should have furnished
them with full employment.—(Hear !)—That time had now
arrived. He was sorry to add to what had fallen from the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, that the conduct of
the workmen in all parts of the country, since the repeal of the
Combination Laws, which hehad laboured so much to procure,
had been highly blameable.--(Hear t)—They bad attempted to
impose upon their masters, regulations far more arbitrary and
degrading than those which they had themselves so much com-
plained of. Ile hoped the recent successes of the masters who
had withstood these attempts, would teach the workmen that
this ungracious and impolitic conduct of theirs would drive
their best friends, in and out of that House, to wish !for the re-
enactment of the old laws.—(hear !)
The vote was agreed to, after a few words from Alderman C.
Smith.
Sums of 560,000/. for the wages to artificers employed in the
yards at home ; of 533,3X1. for the charge for timber; and for
4d,000/. charge for pilotage, bounty for slaves, were then
agreed to.
On the motion being put on the last of the above rotes,
Mr. HUME asked why Oe bounty on slaves was inserted?
Sir G. CLERK replied, that it was under the Act of Par-
liarnent, which ordered that ,money to he payable out of the
funds which might happen to be in the hands of the Treasurer
of the Navy.
Votes of 52,0221. 13s, sd. fsr foreign yards,
73,5721. for victualling yards,
55,5101. 13s. 11d. for medical establishments,
C,2321. 12s. 7d, for the Royal Naval College, &c.,
106,0271. 7s. Id. for wages to officers, &c., belonging to.ves-
sels in ordinary.
5.1,787/. 4s. for victuals to officers, &c. ; and
40,4801. for hired packets, wern then agreed to.
On the last vote Mr. HUM E said, he hoped the Chancellor
of the Exchequer meant to take off the charges which were at
present paid on newspapers sent to and from the colonies, and
make them-in this respect similar to newspapers sent to Ireland
ar.d Scotland, .which.paid either none or a very small charge
-for postage.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said, that the
e7tpznce was so much greater in the one than in the other, that
so:ne part of the charge must in fairness as well as of neces-
mi'y be defrayed by the parties to whom the papers were trans-

mitted.
HUME took this opportunity, having formerly intro-
duced the subject of the half-pay to naval officers being made
a retainer for their future services, to ask whether naval officers
Laving taken holy orders were subject to the same regulations
as officers in the army ?
Sir G. COCKBURN replied, that the regulation by which
officers on half-pay were struck off as soon as they had taken
hely orders, always prevailed in the navy, and by a recent or- i
ti,r the same regulation had been adopted in the army. This
waa however, only to have a prospective operation.
Altera short conversation between Mr. C itoxE R, Mr. II te
and Mr. T. WILSON, the vote was carried.
Votes of 897,5001. for half-pay to Flag.oflicers,
111,021. for Superannuations and Pensions to Officers and
-their Widows,
I,ZOOI. for Bounty to Chaplains, . .
7,0001. for the Compassionate List,
9J,0001. for the Widows' Charity,
2n 0,4104.)Z. for Greenwich Hospital, were also agreed to.
The house resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and
ob:ained leave to sit again on Wednesday next.
CATHOLIC PETITION.
Mr. BROUGHAM then .rose, for the purpose of giving
113::::; on the part of his lion. Friend the Member fur West-
triiester '(sir Francis Burtlettja that his Hon. Friend, who had
been compolled by an accidental occurrence to leave the. House,
would, to-morrow, present the general Petition of the whole
-holy of the Catholics. of Ireland, praying for the removal of
all the disqualifications under which they laboured. Ile begged
to state also, that to-morrow se'nnight his Hon. Friend would
t.ertainly take the opinion of the House with respect to grant-
irg the prayer of that petition.
,UNLAWFUL SOLITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. GOULBURN moved the second reading of the above-
aimed Bill.
Lord NUGENT began by moving an amendment 'to- this
itaetionethat the Bill be read that day six months. 'lf he had
Ta e other objection to the Bill, he observed, he should oppose it
on account of the singular conduct of its supporters.. Scarcely
any two of his Majesty's Ministers could agree upon the view
they took of Ireland, in their .motives for supporting.this Bill, ,
or to their expectations.as.to the results they anticipated. The '
Right Honourable Secretary for Foreign Affairs denied that
the Catholic Association possessed the respect of the Catholic
people of Ireland.; whilst his colleagues founded their support
Of the Bill upon the opposite conclusion. One party opposed
the Association because .it tended to' delay the attainment of
1--;ittholic Emancipation, and others because it brought the
Catholics into two great power. Either might be right ; both
could not. If the reault.of this measure should be the continu—
ance of tranquillity in Ireland, the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Canning) may be satisfied that he was right in at-
tributing to the Catholic Association but little influence. But
then where is the necessity for the measure ? ..If the contrary,
however, should 'be the effect of it, the country would have to
deplore it, regardless of. the opinions or triumph of any parti-
cular Minister. He objected to the Bill, because no case by
parole or documentary evidence was Made out in support of
it ; anti, because he feared iewould be productive of alarm and
discontent in Ireland. They were prepared certainly on the
first night of the Session for the introduction of this measure
without any previous inquiry. In that respect Ministers had
kept their engagements with the Clouse. :Stu then 'they had
In traduced a measure ia a manner unprecedented, and in its
nature highly dangerous and penal. ..It was supposed that -the
objectors to the measure. in.lteland would feel too much respect
for Parliament to oppose it. .Were they to feel this respect for
them because of their kindness to the Catholic leaders;-or upon •
whet grouud could such 'a:sentiment on their part be expected.
For: his part he thought any such feeling highly. problematical.
Where a law sought to .be citadel, lie always thought there
was good ground to suspect that the law was a bad one; at
. least he was sure the converse of that proposition was true, and
a bad penal law would be evaded.
.Thiaßill reminded him of.
an anecdote he had heard relative to the late King of France
'while in exile in this ctotiantnrsyw.er fair. wrae
supposed
offenceanwa
summoned before him o
against some supposed law. He did not attend, and was con-
demned, 'par contamalcc, to consider himself imprisoned in the
Quiciergerie of Paris. The Nobleman accordingly considered.
dungeons
camto of
relievethe Chonmi-
himself -that situation, and walked the streets of London
`in close imaginary confinement e
ciergerie, death, after:many years/
'from captivity. Now this. Was the I:glit.ia which he viewed a
law like the present, Which 'it Would be trnpoSsible to enforce.
There were but two ways- of governing Ireland—by penal
laws, or entancipifion. He said, give the Catholics of Ireland
emancipation-- He believed that Lord Wellesley coupled his.
advice for this measure with a recommendation to grant Catho-
lic emancipation, if this were the ease, as lie believed it was,
lie must say lie did not think it quiee fair to the 'loose or the
Irish Cabinet thus to pursue only one half of a recommendaa
_lion. He called upon every Gentleman who valued civil and
teltgious liberty, and the freedom of discussion in that House,'
to join him in opposing this gagging system of government.—

This attack upon the Association had had the effect of causing'
not only the Howards' the Talbots, and the Arundels, but
the lowest priest in the country, to link his fate inseparably.
with those of the abettori of this question. If the wail in.
which the Catholic hopes were launched were destined to be
wrecked, the Catholics would, at least, be found to adhere to it
as long as one plank remained.
Sir E. KNATCHtULL thought himself entitled to con-
clude his judgment upon the present question, by the evidence
of the Honourable Gentlemen in that House, who cause from
the other side of the water. From them he had heard quite.
enough to convince him that the proper course to adopt was,
to support the Bill. They had heard from the Hon. Baronet
behind him (Sir H. Parnell) an account of the effect caused in
his part of the county by the conflict between the two Mission-
aries from England, and the emissaries of the Catholic Asso-
ciation. Now he had a right to .decide which party was the
firebrand here, and he gave his opinion against the Catholic
Association.—(Hear, hear!)—They had heard described the af-
fection and harmony which the character and conduct of the
Right Honourable Attorney-General for Ireland had produced
amongst-his countrymen, and comparing. that with the present
state of things, lie had a right to refer it to the interference
of the. Catholic Association.—.(Hear, hear !)—lt was also we'd
known, that Mr. O'Connell had great power in Ireland, and
although he might now use it for good purposes, still he bad a
right to conclude that some time or ancther he might employ
it for bad purposes. Therefore he would wish to deprive him
of his power. With regard to the Catholic Question, he had
upon honourable and conscientious motives thought himself
called upon to oppose the claims of the Catholics. He would
Le quite ready to grant those claims when he thought he could
do with safety to the Church Establishment. Upon this sub-
ject the Right Hon. Secretary for the Foreign Department had
made a most important declaration. He had plainly told them
that he was not a friend to the-spoliation of the Irish Church,
and this declaration hail done more to gain the Right Hon. Se-
cretary the confidence of the. Heals:sedum any thing else he had
said or done.---( Hear, hear !)
Mr. M. FITZGERALD contended that the measure before
the House was calculated to alter the present state of Ireland.—
reere could be no doubt that dissentions existed in Ireland ;
but the question was, whether that Bill was calculated to alter
them for the better. The evils of Ireland in his opinion were
caused by the delay which had taken place in the granting of
justice. He traced all the disorders complained of to Mr. Pitt's
Administration. He had told Ireland, that if she would con-
sent to the Union, a door would be opened for the free discus-
sion of her claims in the Ilritish Parliament —(:Tear, hear !)
In this, however, a false expectation had been raised, and the
danger now was, that the whole body of the Catholics would
unite themselves in indissoluble bonds ; and this he expected
would be the result of this State measure of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters. Did they not, in the prosperity of that ill-fated coun-
try, see no latent danger lurking ? Tile history of the Catholics
of Ireland was one of unbounded confidence in the government
of their, country. Their respectable Heirarchy and Nobility
possessed great influence over them ; and if that was now
changed, and insubordination taken its place, it was to be re-
ferred to the disappointment which had accrued from the pro-
traction and apparent retrogression of the measure upon which
all their hopes rested, and which had alienated and disgusted.
them. This state of things created the most imperious demand
upon them, and naturally threw their interest into the hands'of
the ablest and boldest of the country. The Catholic claims were
now under the dominion of those talents, and that patriotism
which was always the resort of men in desperate situations.
A conciliatory course was the one most likely to dissolve the
Association.—(Hear, hear !)—Let this course be adopted, and
the elements of discord would resolve themselves into their
original separate state. No one would doubt this, who knew' any
thing of Ireland. It might perhaps he thought a concession to
the supporters of the Bill, if lie were to say that he observed a
new zeal in Catholic countries abroad which alarmed him. He
believed it proceeded from Rome, and was part of the policy
of the new Pope to restore the great influence of the Catholic
Clergy. He believed too that the Pope was seconded in this
by those depotic powers who wished to -wield that influence
for their own purposes. This was observable no where more
strongly than in the Court of France. Nor were they to sup-
pose that it would not affect Ireland. When England, in Fo-
reign
Papers, was called a osodel of intolerance, they must not
suppose that the observation did not reach Ireland, and that site
would be insensible to the exciting causes that were at work
upon this topic. lie believed the Bourbons would be glad
to wield a Catholic population against the power of Eng-
land. Napoleon never would have waged a religious "was.—
Ile should not be surprised if the Bourbons were to. desire
to raise another Irish .Brigade. The late Brigade proved
their firmest and best supporters, and that at a time when their
was not the same religious feeling and animosity between Ire-
land and England. If this measure passed, did his- Majesty's
Ministers think they would gain much? The Right lion.
Gentlemate(Mr. Secretary Canning) hail attributed to him a
different meaning to what he had uttered on a former debate.—
He had neversaid that the meaning of a certain phrase was dif-
ferent in Irish. What he had said was, that it required tube an
Irishman to understand the phrase. If this Association were put
down every parish in Ireland would have one, and then the
diestructiop which it caused would be multiplied a hundred fold.
He wished to know whether it was the intention of Govern-
ment to prevent the Catholics from dining together, and if not,
did they suppose the Speeches of Irish Gentlemen would be
less violent after dinner?—(A Laugh.)—The true deriorninae
tion of the Bill ought to he, a Bill for extending and dilfusing
the dangers of further exciting the Catholics of Ireland. If the
Justice- of the Catholic claims had been admitted by ell wise
statesmen ; and if the feelings of the Catholics had been excited
by the violent speeches made in Parliament, was it a safe and
politic measure now to suppress an Association which had risen
out of those excited feelings ? Suppressing it, would however,
be a vain attempt, for if one head were cut away, non dificit
alter. It would be injudicious to do so without at the same
time giving relief. To do so would be unwise Ia principle and
unsafe in practice.--( Bear.!) -
Col TRENCH said he believed that the Catholic Asso-
ciation had excited the 'worst and most dangerous feelinge
amongst the lower orders of the people. Ile wished to draw a
comparison between the acts of Government which had been
accused of having done nothing for the relief of Ireland, and
"those
of the Catholic Association which pretended to have dune
so much. He would leave it to the good .sense of the country
Gentlemen to draw their own conclusions from his statement.—
Many of the evils which afflicted :Ireland were beyond the
reach of legislation to remove.; .bet what legislation could
do, it had done. The seeds had been sown, .and a harvest
would be gathered in due time.
..That harvest wottld have been
much more abundant but for the conduct of the Catholic elieso-
dation. The legislative measures by which Ireland had been. so
much benefited were—the re-organization of the establishment
of Sheriffs ; the improvement of the Law Courts...;. the remov-
ing many gross abuses from the Customs_ and Excise, by which
a freer opening was made for, the introduction of British capi-
tal; the entire repeal of assessed. taxes in Ireland.; the ame-
lioration of the Distillery Laws.; the increase ofmunufactures,
and the great attention shewn to the education of the lower
classes. There wcre.some obstacles thrown in the:way of edu-
cation which ought to lie removed. !nese were the anti-
pathy of the Catholic Priests, and the injudicious zeal of the
Protestants themselves. Another great legislative benefit was
the Tithe Bill of last Session. Justice had been rendered
more impartial, and less sulject to the influence of local pre-
judices, by the establishment of the Petty Sessions. lie was
ready to admit that somediing„yet remabedflir Government to
do. it ought to insist on the residence , of the Protestant
Clergy,. and it ought to pay the. Cathelic Priests liberally.—
One of the greatest curses
~under sabich the_ country at present
suffered was the 403. freeholders. !There were likewise souse
pcints of importance where Government could not interfere, and
which called for the attention of :Irish Gentlemen themselves.
Rents should be reduced, industry encouraged, decent _habits,
religious reverence, run/. moderation of opinions inculceted.—
On the other hem!, the Catholic Association had done no-
thing to tranquilize the country. Its tone was violent, and its
manner, as an Honourable Member (Mr. Orenfell) had Justly
sahle" leullying." It was too much order the influence ?NUT,
or three eloquent leaders, whose speeches were fall of dan-
gerous and extravagant doctrines.—('The Gallant Colonel pro-
ceeded .to read some passages from the speeches of Messrs.
O'Connell and Shiel, amiest -much confusion, and some cries
of question.)—He would ask the House whether a body'in-
fluenced by such language ought to be tolerated ? 'The Ass°,
elation, instead of coming to Parliament a humble and sup-
pliantway, had assumed a haughty tone," and endeavoured to
terrify them.. The existence of the Association• Ile believed
hostile to the peace and best interests of the country. Be re-
gretted that it had. not been extinguished in its infancy. _ _
Mr. SYKES expressed his astonishment a the favourable
view which had just been eaten of the condition "of Ireland,
especially when he recollected the very different opinion which
had been given on the same subject no longer ago than in the
last year. The lion. Gentleman then proceeded. to say, thant
he
opinion. of the great body of the people of En:,;:and. had become
changed on the subject of the Catholic
of a afferent
question. It was
now generally admitted that a man might be
religion from the great body, and yet he capable of enjoying
all his civil rights.—(Hear, hear !)—ln the very populous town
(Hull) which he had the honour to represent, all feeling of
illiberality on the score of religion had in a very great degree
1 declined. He remembered a time when those who supported
the Catholic question were not only unpopular in that town, but
were in some rsonal danger ; but now he not only professed
himself favourable' to the Catholics of Ireland, but declared
himself a decided advocate for their claims ; and he wee certain
that at the next election he should not find one enemy on that
gr'und•—(Cheers.)—The fact was, the eyes of the people were
""Pened. They were becoming. every day more enlight-
ened) and saw the absurdity and injustice of depriving any titan

of his civil privileges on account of his religious opinions.—
(Hear, hear !)—lt was impossible to look at this measure in any
other light, than as an attempt to put down the Catholic Associ-
ation without reference to any other society Was there any man
who attempted to argue it on any other ground ? It was true it
might have that effect: the Association might be put down, but
would the Bill have the effect of repressing the advancing spirit
of the Catholics of Ireland?—(Hear, hear!)—Whatever might
be its intermediate effects, he was satisfied it would in the
result do inure harm than good. With respect to the Associa-
tion itself, he would observe that it must be considered as grow-
ing out of the state of the public mind in Ireland, on the sub-
ject of the Catholic question. As to the mode in which they
should be treated; he would suggest—
" Be to their virtues very kind,
" Be to their faults a little
But coercion, such as this bill proposed, would, he thought, be
wholly ineffectual.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. P. GRENFELL wished to explain one of the observa-
tions which he made on this subject the other night, and which
seemed to have been wholly misunderstood by the gallant
officer opposite (Col. Trench.) That Honourable and Gallant
Member had described hiur as having called the Catholic As-
sociation "a bullying Association." This he begged to deny.
lie had said, after hearing the statement of the Right lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Goolburn), that if this Association interfered
with the administration of justice, it ought not to be suffered
to exist, and that he would give his vote for putting it down ;
hut he did not pledge himself to give his support to the parti-
cular means by which that object was to be effected ; and now,
after having read the Right Honourable Gentleman's Bill, lie
was prepared to oppose its second reading.—( hear !)—lle stated
on a former evening that it was impossible to expect that
6,009,000 of Catholics could submit to 1,000,000 of Protestants,
and he added, that if he were in his dying hour, he would ex-
press his hope that if those six millions were oppressed, they
might resist, and that if they did resist they might be success-
,M. lie was glad that the gallant officer had, given him this
opportunity of explaining his sentiments on this subject.
Colonel TRENCH, in explanation, said, that he had heard
the Words " bullying Association" from some Hon. Member on
the opposite side, and had understood them as having pro-
ceeded from the Hon. Member for Penryn.
Mr. PHILIPS denied that the existence of the Association
had prevented Englishmen from embarking their capital in
business in Ireland, as was stated by the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr Goulburn). He knew that the manufacturers
in Lancashire were not at all afraid to send over their cotton.
twist into that country, and he was glad to say that that trade
was extending every day. He believed that as long as tran-
quillity continued in Ireland, whether produced by the mea-
sures of Government, or the influence of the Catholic Asso-
ciation, that Englishmen would not object to send their capi-
tal to Ireland ; but though the country was now tranquil,
he was convinced that its tranquillity would not be permanent
unless it rested upon an amicable settlement of the Catholic
Question. That he could hardly hope for while lie saw the
Cabinet so divided upon this important question. He was
almost ashamed of the name of Englishman, when he reflected
on the degradation to which England was exposed in I.;urope,,
even in the eyes of the Holy Alliance, by her illiberality on the
and
I,rl' ho rt
tei cries itu!,:oseu,o)snle*
d4d4ri
e,4iteiQuestion"enL,,u,se3nn
Xs3—Against
tebgr ecaciaannysipte
ground 'of religious difference.—(hear
veryrei
appeared—
For loud and general,
Majority, 1-16.
The ether Orders orthe Day were then disposed of; and the
House adjourned at a QuAnzEn-pAsT ELEVEN.