The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-12 00:00:00

II 0 USE OF COMMONS, M.i.ncE 11.

In consequence of there being a ballot for Committees to
try the petitions against the return of Members for Mayo
and Athlone, the gallery was not opened till past Five
o'clock.

Several Private Bills were read a third time and passed,
and others forwarded a stage.
COLONIAL TRADE BILL.

On the motion of Lord ALTIIORP, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee of tle Colonial Trade Bill.

Mr. P. THOMSON said, that it was only necessary to
recall the attention of the House to the Order in Council
issued in 1826, to prohibit the intercourse of the colonies
with the United States of America. That order had been
in force from 1826 until towards the close of the last ye ir.
The suspension of the order rendered the enactment of a
Bill, such as was proposed to the House, indispensable.
He would not enter into a discussion of the policy of the
prohibition in 1826, but the consequences of that mea-
sure were found to be so inconvenient, that the late Admi-
nistration had found it necessary to propose a Bill to per-
mit and to regulate the trade of the colonies in the West
Indies and in Canada with the United States. The first
documents, which the present Ministers for the Colonial
Department found upon coming into office, were protests,
not only from the American Minister, but from our North
American colonies, against the Bill of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite. From an inquiry into the matters com-
plained of, he (Mr. P. Thomson) had found it necessary to
make some alterations in that Bill ; and although these
alterations were but trifling, they were yet such as
would give satisfaction to all the parties interested.—
(Hear.)—At the same time that he proposed to pro-
tect all those articles of colonial produce in which the Co-
lonies are extensively concerned, he should take off the
duty from those articles, the production of which was not
of any great importance to them.—(Hear, hear.)—By-
some of the proposed alterations (that of the duty on
wheat and flour, for instance), the British West India
Islands would be benefited to the amount of perhaps
20,0001. a year. The duty upon st heat was to be re-
duced from Gs. to 55., which would give a sufficient pro-
tection to our North American shipping, at the same time
that it would confer some considerable advantages upon our
West India Colonies, where lie was confident the diminu-
tion of the duty would be regarded as a great bsen. He
found that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had raised
the duty upon staves and beards; but that in order to
afford to that branch of the Canadian trade an efficient
protection, it was necessary to raise the duty from 19s.
grey, and 18s. white, to Ms. and 23a.—(The Hon. Gen-
tleman was so indistinctly heard throughout his explana-
tions of the details of the Bill, that it would be vain for us
to attempt giving an account of them.)
Mr. HERRIES thought that it was necessary to sub-
mit the schedule of the Right lion. Gentleman to he there
carefully examined. He did not think that any person
who had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman's explanations
could perfectly understand the mode which the Hon. Gen-
tleman intended to adopt, or the effects which he anti-
cipated. He would, therefore, recommend the Hon. Gen-
tleman, instead of the irregular course which he was pur-
suing—(Hear)—to allow the particulars of his schedule
to be printed, so that the whole subject might be fairly
understood and fully discussed. If that were agreed to,
he (Mr. H.) would consider it the less necessary to state
his objections at present to the proposition of the lion.
Gentleman, for if he did enter into the discussion, he could
expect only to be as little understood as he really believed
the Hon. Gentleman had been by those who heard hint.
The question was, whether the principle, which the Bill
professed, had been acted upon ? It was to him matter
of surprise and satisfaction, that gentlemen opposite had
abjured the principles on which they had formerly opposed
the Government to whore they succeeded, and that they
had returned so far to sound and just principles as even to
increase the duties, which be (Mr. H. ) had thought suffi-
cient for the protection of our colonial interests.—(Hear.)
Whatever deficiency of support they (Ministers) might ex-
perience in their present course from some Hon. Gentle-
men, who had lately rendered them on other subjects very
zealous and efficient support, he hoped that deficiency
would be compensated by the support which they would
certainly receive from those who had always kept those
principles in view. The principal alteration proposed by
the Hon. Gentleman was, that of the duties on flour and
staves. Now, although he (Mr. II.) was aware that the
duty on staves might advantageously be raised, yet, as the

importation of flour to the West Indies was
connected with that of staves, he considered that the dull!
upon the flour was a sufficient protection to staves.
to
could not say, therefore, that he was quite prepare"
acquiesce in the proposed alteration of the duties on fiou't
He was aware that there was a difference of opinion anl°P6lo
the Members of the present Government nn the "br,lit
connected with the present Bill. He was aware that
to too
ht
President of the Board of Controul was opposed
principle of protection. That Right Hon. Gientlerna7.l'
no
a former occasion, had addressed him (Mr. C. Grant) I in,
the prite,
friendly terms of admonition, when he acted upon
inseparta;
ciple now adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman "Prsilent
Ile should be much pleased to find that the pre
of
of the Board of Controul concurred in their chang!be
opinion. The Bill was founded not certainly upon h'er
principle of political economy, but upon a much The
principle—that of doing
justice to the colalie'' the
s,heilule which had been agreed to in 1822 was, ,
House knew, acted upon during a period of three Ye 300,0
n comely, to 1825 ; thus it had a fair trial, and
the result of that experiment ? Nothing less than s
he 52'de,
decrease in the British and West India tonnage. sand
melee amounted to the difference between 76,000 On ht
3..•,000 tons, and all within that short period. He tlic)°,g,,,ci
that afforded just matter of regret, and abundant Ile
Ile
for the abandonment of so unsuccessful a system' the
thought that this country 111,1 a right to complain he
Americ n duties upon British tonnage, and he th°!:l4
also that other ground of just complaint was to be +no,
lii the tortuous policy pursued by the American G. 'hfstool•
nient throughout the whole of the negociationa
alt
place upon that subject. He wished the House t 0 of
serve that, after the year 1825, the systems
tht
protection was renewed, and the effect was, t°,3"t.,et
tonnage of the country was brought back to it' `",ao
level. The three years' trial failed, and in his opiote"
one but a theorist would recommend a return to it. oaf
to opinions expressed by Gentlemen opposite, Rhea ,c).)04
office, he had much gratification in perceiving, that did
they had been doled to the Councils of the Kings the.loslf
not act to the full extent of the principles they Prervi the
:
expressed. With these observations he should, '"'„or.
present, content himself, intending to take a future Otos
tunity of entering more in detail. The Bill, as rfor he
stood, in sonic respects would have his support, ate
was glad to find that the Right Hon. Gentleman b't,rf°,olo
to sounder principles than might have been expecte'
his former declarations.
sOj

Mr. P. THOMSON explained ; adding, that he ',.00
take the earliest opportunity of effecting the alter' jot
mentioned. The Right Hon. Gentleman who sl°,%-oecil
was the author of the repeal of the Order in
which took away the protection, and he seernea °rote"
fault with his Majesty's Government for refusiogkoe
tion. He urged the Bill upon the adoption of the P
on the ground that it called upon the West Indies f mate
sent sacrifice with the view of securing to there 01V
benefit. He defended the consistency of the pre
vernment, and maintained that they had always 141,1%1'
vourable to the protection of the colonies, and hesa°,l°
endeavour to render his protecting measure hoer,'the
the empire at large, without, in any respect, sacrideieg
true interest of the colonies. flos'
Mr. ROBINSON said, that although the Right,atti
Gentlemen at both sides of the House expressed the
affection for the American colonies, the colonies, he levie)
were very likely to be ruined by them hoth.--4 -calr
They were now discussing one of the most imnportaoool,
mercial subjects that could came before Parliament,
liet;
observed with regret, nut in a very full House. v.„ficor
st
oen nnsst, extraordinary
now, en
matters
thellth March,
theyv
connected with
weretbiso e'011;
during the schedule of duties which were to be istdosi',
trade which was carried on since October last. Thilool
specimen of the rummer iu which the commercial s'itafi:
this country were man aged. After a long negoc,'oo'
during which the American Government had always
with an anxious eye towards a renewal of the direotloeol
course with our West India colonies, the late Gover°tieio
gave America the advantage of repeating an offer al sod
1825, and then refused ; the interval between 162,.ditr°
1830 having been passed by America in a course WO',
commercial hostility to this country. By the triad .o'll
the Congress had, in effect, prohibited the importshrio{
British manufactures into the United States, and, in
of fact, the only trade carried on was by smugghng"tßight Boa. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) had atteloP/oel 0
justify 10
his proceedings by the opinion of Mr. Ilw°eil
but, from the speech which Mr. Huskisson deliver.oool
that House in 1828, upon moving for the produetkla,
the American tariff, he contended that Mr. fiespl?
would have been very unlikely to have sanctiooVe,
concession that had been made towards America 1,140
sober last, after the system of direct hostility
that country had pursued. In the negociation oarr,"tici!,
between Lord Aherdeen and Mr. Maclean, the Ah;;,/,0"
diplomatist had the address to persuade his Lee
to mix up the general commercial question beto7oo
two countries with the question as it related to the rere;
trade. No man of common sense could say, hold
that the commerce between the two countries shettirrs
be looked upon as a whole ; and that if the 141°tef,'014,
would not let our manufactures into the United Sts oo
should not give them the boon they had so long
and admit them to have a direct intercourse with leettoco
India colonies.—(Hear, hear.) There could have oil
difficulty in our saying to the United States, " yet "0,
think proper to revive the tariff of 1824, we sh,ahve,,,
certain the question of colonial intercourse. to,eo`o,
Government adopted the views of Mr. Macleanrcr.rette'rt
without any condition, allowed the Americans 3 )
tercourse with our West India colonies, which s*-oje,
little less than giving them a part of our coasting fightt;
(Hear.) The North American colonies had saeeoo;
complain, after the correspondence of Lord Aherdios
Mr. Maclean, that the trade to the West fh.
thrown open, on the scale of duties established red fre,
It would be raid that the West India trade I-cell-ties'
tection. He admitted that it did ; but if those geopoi,
who had an interest in the West India propertf ;cry el,
that this Bill would operate as a boon to thern, tarit,go,
greatly mistaken. So far from being an advt ttgol,.
them, it would be made use of as an argurneh,he sop,
granting them a real benefit in the reduction 01. "sbatola
duties. But the present Bill amounted to a total
ment of the shipping interest. It might ysi h 3
of about 50,000/. a year, but the injury to the,,t
interest would outweigh not only a saving, of
but all colonial questions whatsoever. He fuel
be S°el
plained of the measure as calculated to increase a tbstot
time power of the United States, while it reduceto ;rot;
our owe. The policy of this country should hettiolciej
no concession to the Americans without an c(1 o°,o'
for America was not actuated by the liberal rl,llies ooc
by Mr. Maclean, as appeared from the heavY atioct,d,
had imposed upon West India produce. Its ers°,l4
country never had, and never could have, ',1013
course of greater commercial hostility against us
/Pea
were practising at this moment. eree
Mr. C. GRANT thought that the wisest eon
this Government could pursue, was to bury ine4plV
all animosities with respect to America. The ly SOFIV
of the United States had exhibited the most 013 t: ore P 8
sect conduct, and his Majesty's late Governmch,rse.
feetly justified in throwing open the intere°,ol3,ooe
correspondence between the two Governments"optr/
honourable to both, and, he thought, Would oonhieetr
much to re-unite the feelings of the two e 6108
(Hear, hear.) The Bill which the Right 1/foor,(i.
man (Mr. Berries) had introduced was not 'io tP;er
present Bill, bemuse it increased the duties, sr'll
f he o'4
sent reduced them all, with the exception °,!e ,ealtassbee');
two, which experienced a slight increase. b.
vgll3
fore, not guilty of any inconsistency in opr" Olii3
the Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and Pr afsl:l,
which was now before the Committee. •oirejar
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said that time Pr' 'core, !I!,
Bill was to promote the intercourse betscernro eillo fro,"
American colonies and the 'West Indio' ; ;on'°,6l/
Bill came to be discussed on its next stages, s;c0,0,;(0
his opinion on the duties generally, by io°'#
posed to effect this object. The object of t 1 isreOlotec,o
give protection to the intercourse between the the
and Canada, so that the firmer might find Ineertai° cooo
market for her home productions. In 1821, Ofth.9l,lolec
had been fixed, in consequence of the rePerotao,ot'oo
mittee which then sat upon the subject ; a rst soofedo
had grown up under those duties, to so tieoing o 04,
that this Bill would hove the effect of d 'road
tons of shiping engaged in the Norta Arato tP;pf '
fur the purpose of putting 600,0001' otri jes
fullsy, in violation of that order which the e°°
those 00. er
ave been a final settlement
neawhich
Mr.at hg
oCr
ctiOegdit:
tRno.,T
timeEh eN (Ai
ar
stink
atd:ci teohdnasatitdae:r. time
hreir 13get);o:i.,boee5ref30,:e00::
pire. They were founded on the princiP3'e_liotaeo't orePca,
porary protection at the discretion of l':
,oretosl de
Sir HENRY PARNELL slid that sherd in oeo be
was a recurrence to the principle abandon' l'3`l,ef,
pressly on the ground (as Mr. Huskiss°l't fortricom Deed
Blared) that it was not prudent to coerYth Ames rade
intent of the measure was that the Nor it 141000,
nies should be supported, and therefore
the Aceiotooter,
to lay heavy duties on the timber trade t 0 ols
This was palpably inconsistent with t
oFt leopd,
for there could be no question but tolito:l6,,eo,
would retaliate by raising the price musses
in
in effect, be abe ivy tax on the co

was insePars'bll
!red that the du.,ti
n to staves.
cite prepare°, r,
le duties on nott
f opinion aralco
It nn the oubl
ras aware that i.s".",
s opposed to to',l
u. Gentlenl)l7' no
r. C. Grant/
tt d upon the prin,
en tle ins n opPrdlettiet
:hat the Pres of
rigs
n their chs tbe
hinly upon
e.
,r jab
u a much The
ie colonies.
as the
1522 was'
1 of three Ye' 00
al, and Whsot. nj
than The less toil
_be de,
on age. los sod
n 13'
' 000 to
ought
eriod. He toon
abundant re ge
1 a system. f the
complain ° .ht
thoss
and he footo
t was to beofe
tmerico Gu 01:
iations which
he House g.,°, of
the oYs the
h't
..et was, t f
ir
ack to its al
in his opinion A;
return to it. ot of
osite, when 004
rceiving, th,s„ted
he King, t''.'oo6ll
es they previr the
e should, 18 or.
, • t opf
Ice a future sel
Bill, as (or he
s support, if
'da ouie
!ntlenaan had
ten expect
100
ing, that be stool
eg the
alte" lat
In who oPsOOO,
order in `'" 60,
he seemed toter
refusing pfooe,
tion of the ,P, Pre'
rest Indies 'iotioote
to then'. o' cio'
f the preset fo,
always
!.s and he s°
•,,1
oasure' benefi,cl-the
•tieing
ect, sacr

00'
h the Rigbt yt
pressed the grgei,
;:oloniest be aieesp)
n hoth•---0:;.00r
Ist iinportito.;d
.)arliametitt 3,0
I House. „vitt'
this

inks 4 note subject appeared to him to have been taken up
roeinlarrow and uustatesmanlike point of view. He was
Nit that tie iing could tend so much to reduce the
eisk;ltlrdens of the country as a reform in our whole
of it:!ll)ettem. The present measure was, in every view
bl~ilighly
telee STUART WORTLEY said, that if Ministers
prtteiriturreil to the duties of 1822, instead of taking the
tech modified step, it would be a most unjustifiable...aet
haltegard to the interests of the colonies. He rejiiieec,
itesteri that this measure would be the means of restoi-
'll; intercours? which was so beneficial to the colonies.
fltrt*e unties were objectionable in another point of view,
Tager they were maintained the more difficult it
,'° get rid of them, for they forced ether interests
of
.4etenee, which created a double difficulty in the way
'ierPeating them.
11,54 Alderman THOMPSON had heard some gent,ta
le-
-14 %tend that the Bill would not benefit the e
bothw West
others said it would not benefit Canada, and
the Ca,ted that the only party it would benefit would be
seti, nited Stites of America. He had heard, however,
satisfaction, that the Bill was framed with
a view to
o,:Proteetion to the North American colonies, for it
that t(1 that Government was alive to the importance of
t.e4,oe4ni°ll)', the trade of which with England had in-
half of
thrice 1816 so much, that it was now equal to one-
lie hvltne whole of the foreign trade of the United State!.
the rlO wish whatever to, throw any embarrassment in
14,,_4Y of the Government ; but he must call on tihtie,
Npie Lord
e, opposite to say what he intended to do w
the tc,—, t''. the timber duties. It became important that
the ,e'ntton of Government should be known at once, as
iajte'as the season at which ships were chartered. An
thiYtrunto 143 constituents, who were deeply interested in
ttrtstri t
must behe consequence of
yprotracted un-
-11(' IriI3,II•NAL could not recognize any boon to the
,
ise7,-nifla colonists in this measure, which, in point of
et,t,twas the same as that introduced by the late Govern-
ttrietle into
suppose that non-intercourse could he carried
!Its' fitt fEtto effect was the greatest fallacy, for it could not
'srie ttet• To this he could practically testify, because,
higlg toe legal existence of that non-intercourse, be had got
St, tirher from America, by going to the neutral island of
hire innrstas, where it was obliged to be paid for in hared ido t-
tietelelete4tiof produce, as was the case before that regul a-
there ;"ere was no difference between the Bills, for though
let apparent limitations in the pres.entiaimeasheurre,e
'ere ' s
4•°uld be found in substance quite mi
tercet utke highly disadvantageous to the West IndiaT. in.sf ,
itnPosed on Canada—for instance, there was a duty
I'l'l'd
i 64' Per cwt. on sugar, Ps. per cwt. on molasses,
roan Pet' gallon on rum, although theconsumtplottioedn
to
te,e.llo, the British North American colonies amounted
Go.
ssrarrlatf of the consumption of Great Britain.
ees.
tity (.5°1., therefore, should press upon Canada the nee a
it't • getting rid of those duties, as there ought toh
tetee,e,!Procity between the colonies. With respect to o -
ri „7,tnns that bad been made upon the conduct of Ame-
tie'v"c should only observe, that although it was the duty
teti4ttfy Member to speak his opinions, and defend. the in-
tlyti;:of the country, he must at the same time deprecate
jeeolting which would have a tendency to create or foster
between the United States and the British empire.i
Mee, ARBURTON said that it was well known t
o' West India sugars must be regulated by the
Plist—,o,f sugars in the markets of the world ; therefore the
the Zr`ing duty of 70,0001. a year fell altogether upon
price e Undies, and must have a tendency to raise the
°f produce there. This was unjust, and he also felt
nglY o
Per PPosed to the duty now proposed of neirly 100
• on lumber.
to iofs CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
iteen,?'4l the Hon. Alderman (Thompson) that it was his
41140 ?°n to persevere in the timber duties, which had been
4eree-n"dt In many of the principles urged by the Hon.
e r,;•et °PPosite (Sir H. Parnell) lie fully concurred, but
tittede4nre
now proposed was by no means, as heal been
The '
a retrograding from a system of a few years back.
t'tet.'°virritinent was returning to the scale of 1825, and
40, Mei
b -ems which had been taxed under that scale would
ere, 't admitted free of duty. The consequence, how-
Ne.',,nnf the effect of the late artificial system of non-inter-
ths ittlee-i On Canada
with had- been such that we could not at
the duties, as we should not allow fair time for
tad • e rarval of the capital invested under that system;
sen%as with this view that the present course was
;'. It was eiter the plan of this or the late Go-
Net net t° he partial or oppressive on the colonial inte-
; out when
the interests of the whole empire were to
.1:41404 t4),,the colonies must hear their fair share of the
4:;:itleciitaTaritnl,oeteditad no right to complain. He regretted that
ttt )11;(1 not be in his power to take off the sugar duties,
that. the- measures to, be adopted would be
hlr'every interest concernee..
kin„ „„tiME objected to the phrase " perpetual protec-
thy ~I.llch had been used by the Hon. Member for
;le ti
it was in direct opposition to the principle
A 'eh that House had acted for several years past.
14,4 °f the duties recognised in this Bill seemed to
fear, b return to that protecting system which had for
e' b. ean exploded ; and with respect to the impolicy, he.
friends had, by various divisions, expressed their
tttr, Pinion. In his view of this subject, the en-
?e stir/tent which was sought to be given to individuals
ire the ok their capital in Canadian speculation!, would
rght od prove a mere delusion. He thought that they
ere ill Proceed gradually to the situation in which they
e 1825 ; and when the House resumed, he would
ePPortunity of submitting a proposition fur that
404 tti lee;toThia 1311, though there were some good points
Warn as was expected, bring back the markets
;01::441,1,, India colonies, because the Americans were
10 'Y dis4.,`,l) supply themselves more cheaply elsewhere.
gar from 'Li their ow rum, and they procured their
thi, Cuba n •
Ittlh;e_ • He was surprised at the ignorance. of
ate subject which was that night displayed by a Right
9aeneelay tk entlemann he hes d not to
utit
more rniacliief H
waserr don) a d
e in legislationitate in conse-
tZtise.°iigriorance than resulted even from positive in-
-444413'i h Neo _ that the Right Hon. Gentleman had leisure
lV tleee„:, hoped that he would, however late, perceive
removingpied and d
R of
. commer,eill restrictions of every
ke.'ralee, i‘e"yition. It appeared to him to be infinitely
Pe-"°"es a re Canadians were suffering under any
cueiar
13711 y greed to since 1825, to relieve them by a tree
t4eg.rants rather than endeavour to benefit them
,r'eleipio,l inch was directly opposed to the best and truest
t 'add cif political economy. The present measure
Fiber to. all parties. These protective,. or
eee tite duties, would not serve North America,
'HI they be beneficial to the West Indies.
I'HONISON denied that kis Majesty's Minis-
thee !re aetin
Minis-
let; had eh, -g °Pon principles contrary to those which
445.ti14
I,vaYs professed. The course which they were
t
, Tee Ys professed.
existing circumstances, the comc
—Pete ~,,_reritish colonies being, with respect to the
differ colonies from )olltrt proper
th all other colonies, it was, he. Cobn-
iesaotftohtebyershsotualtdesh. are some protection e-
t4tikittehre4Cowle_e
Is. ,:irde from Mr. Heaexxs, Mr. CALLAGHAN,
CoNNELL, the amendment was put and
Th
oth
tiou eh clauses of the Bill were then agreed to, and
'tel 'e haei
Died „ug resumed, the report was ordered to be
it them londay.
,r otion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
°NI44: "d that the House, at its rising, do adjourn to

1., it‘ C, b, REFORM BILL.
i °II (th,"Y.THERELL wished to know from the Noble
11,1ttatiel
to laxcellor of the Exchequer) whether it vt as
44
f r ,_ing in the Bill for Parliamentary Reform,
1.14,0,W„0ich bad been obtained on Wednesday.
itt,,,l that of the EXCHEQUER had ead-
tl,4t it "t it would have been ready before that hour, an ''V f c:4ld have been brought in that evening, but he
plop it.c'et'd
,that it could not be brought in before Monday.
), of•
RN‘ftTHERELL expressed his surprise thata
,l,reltok,ie„_ rn on which they were told the Cabinet
:ItiO4 _on
plan which bad undergone the longestn, littttltur,
evt.that House that had ever been given tfopaary_
ic‘ tot,
41,',,_
,b re submitted to the consideration t
id beeula I.lot be ready two days after that en which
1.1 tilti g, th_ri g,ven to bring it in. Was he to understandit 1,4,, s qiff4t the plan was not yet prepared ; or was
qtr di, '1" nt plan from that which they had so lung
, t,o_ 'cussion, 5
It rrl J. pi.,
/11,)q 11 t i;""SSELL said, the plan was ready, though
4,14E14 °.
een Copied out in sufficient time to have it
NI tett ,rtltat evening. It would, however, be pre-
)44,1'114,1a "day, and be printed, and ready for delivery
Sir it if ):4°)loing which was as early as Members could
4,it e. ',,,,t
were
brought' in that evening.
;ti'4 pl. "tTIIERELL
ll .*Pare., observed, that if the plan had
rii,, k to th k, at the time the motion was made far leave to
4 'th e ill, outbe House had a right to expect, the
1rt')14,,; 111:111f ithe Billght to be ready now._(" No, no.")
1,4itj,11 coot r° might cry " no " but he said yes; and he Mij trqtee," that the°House'and the country were not
tqtl;l4ltteri,-1 `1) bY the delay.--(" Hear, hear," from the
,t[ty wore 7r ites. )---He repeated, the House and the
thqt ct.,,,•,_eated badly by this delay.
tp4,tet fo'r I..NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had such
tlitig) that the opinion of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
IVit 11'4 he should regret coming under big lash, but he
this, ri that be had been deservedly brought under
4tanoe; or, if theand Learned Gentleman
, L
tie hoped the Home and the country would

think differently.--(Hear, hear.) It was no just ground
of sharge against Ministers that they were not quite ready
to lay the draught of a measure of this importance before
the House the moment they obtained leave to bring it in.
The general plan of the measure was prepared and agreed
upon before the motion of his Noble Friend was submitted
to the House, hut it might have been necessary, without
any change of that general plan, to alter some of the details
before the Bill was laid on the table of the House.

Sir C. WETHERELL—I now beg distinctly to ask the
Noble Lord when is the Bill to be brought in ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—On
Monday.

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS.-SUGAR

DUTIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a
Committee of Ways and Means.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Mr. ATT WOOD was anxious to take this opportunity
of saying a few words on a subject of great importance
to the country. It was now nearly a month since the
Noble Lord (Althorp) had brought forward his plan for
several great changes in the duties affecting some impor-
tant branches of the commerce of the country. On that
occasion he submitted certain intended changes to the
amount of duties, particularly those on timber. The plan
had no sooner been submitted to the House, than it created
a very great sensation in the commercial world. It was
then suspended ; and though the public were most anxious
to ascertain the decision of Parliament with respect to it,
the Noble Lord now intimated that the measure was to be
further postponed fir a fortnight. Such delay as this on
a matter where such extensive commercial interests were
depending, was most ruinous in its effects on large capi-
tals embarked in the trade which was to be affected by
the proposed change in the duties. He alluded now to
the proposed changes in the duties on timber. Not less
than 9,000 tons of shipping, ready to sail for the Ca-
nadas i❑ this trade with cargoes exceeding 100,0001.,
were delayed by this suspense. This, he must sty,
was not treating the House or the country fairly. Minis-
ters ought to be ready to come forward with the measure
which they opened to the country as soon after as possible,
to prevent that uncertainty, than which nothing was more
injurious in matters of extensive trade. An Hon. Friend
of his had a petition to present from a large body of mer-
chants interested in this trade, and he had waited day after
day to bear the farther details of their plan from Ministers;
but now, as these were to be further postponed, the discus-
sion must come on on the petition—a course most incon-
venient to those concerned, who as yet knew only a part
of the plan that was to be brought forward. If the pe-
titions of the people were not to receive more attention
than this, the best Reform which Ministers could intro-
duce would be, that by which greater attention might be
paid to the grievances of the people. If his Hon. Friend
who had the petition to which he alluded, would now
move an amendment to the motion before the House, that
this petition be read and discussed, instead of going into
the Committee, he (Mr. Attwood) would readily second
it. The petitions of the people had the first clain on the
attention of Parliament. Already had 2,000 of them,
complaining of and praying for redress of griev-
ances, been presented, and he thought Ministers
would have been much more u=efully employed in read-
ing and classifying them, and seeing what it was
for which they prayed, than in bringing forward a mea-
sure of Reform, as it was called, in which no one griev-
ance of the people was redressed. But a Noble Lord had
asked, if that House occupied itself in reading the peti-
tions of the people, what time would there be for passing
Acts of Parliament? He would answer, that if fewer
Acts of Parliament were passed, it would be so much the
better for the country.—(Hear, bear.) There were al-
ready six Acts passed for bettering the condition of the
poor, and yet that condition was every day becoming
worse. The Mon. Member then went on to contend that
the plan of Reform brought forward did not propose to
redress any grievance of which the people complained;
that that and other measures proposed by Government
would go to the ruin of whole classes ; and that Ministers,
who had failed in shewing that they were men of superior
practical knowledge as statesmen and political economists,
had delayed proceeding with their commercial plans, on
which, if the House had been earlier called to decide, it
would have become necessary to have a different set of
men as advisers of the Crown.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
that delay in matters affecting commerce would be in.
jurious ; but the parties interested in the timber trade
could not, with justice, complain of any inconvenience
from the delay to which the Hon. Member alluded, be.
cause, at the very opening of the plan, it was stated that
the new duties were not to take effect before the 10th of
October ; so that all the tons of shipping which the lion.
Gentleman had mentisned would have full time to go to
Canada and return to this country before that period.—
(Hear, hear.)—The changes with respect to the other
duties would not be delayed, for they were proceeding with
them as rapidly as the other business of Parliament would
permit. As to the petitions of the people, he should be
glad if the business of the House would admit of having
them more: fully read and discussed, but the arrangement
for not bringing forward petitions after five o'clock was
made before he and his friends came into office. He did
not find fault with that arrangement, as he thought that
some arrangement of the kind was unavoidable ; for it
must be obvious, that if the House occupied itself in read-
ing and discussing all the petitions which came before it,
it would have no time for discussing measures to redress
those grievances of which they complained. The Hon.
Member had introduced the subject of Reform, but that
had so recently undergone a full discussion, that the House
would excuse him if he refrained at that time from fol-
lowing the Hon. Member into it.—(Hear.)

Sir C. WETHERELL contended that the course pur-
sued by Ministers in opening the budget of the year, and
then suspending some of its most important parts, was un-
precedented. It was too bad that an Administration should
open the financial budget, then suspend it, to bring for-
ward a plan of Reform, with which also they were not
ready. So that there was now before the House a sus-
pended budget and a suspended plan of Reform.—(Hear,
hear," and cries of " No, no.) The delay in the Noble
Lord's pla❑ of duties, particularly in those intended with
respect to timber, was very generally complained of
amongst commercial men. He had several memorials pre-
sented to him from most respectable men in the City, on
the subject. Why they should have addressed themselves to
him—one of those rotten Members who were sought to be
got rid of by the noble Paymaster's plan of Reform—he
knew not, but so it was. Those respectable parties com-
plained that their business was at a stand, and they could
not tell what course to pursue in the uncertainty as to the
measures which Parliament might finally adopt with re-
spect to those timber duties. The further delay now intended
by the Noble Lord was an aggravation of the original sus-
pension. He did not state these things with any view
to harass or impede the Noble Lord (Althorp). No man
was more disposed to support the Government of the Noble
Lord than he had been at first—(Haar, hear, and a
laugh)—and he was anxious to express to hisn and the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland his thanks for the vigour
and firmness they had displayed in carrying on the King's
Government, particularly in Ireland ; but when he found
that among the measures proposed by the Noble Lord were
two—one involving a breach of duty to the colonies, and
the other a breach of national faith—he was determined
not to give his support to the Noble Lord's Government
any longer.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he would
support any motion which should compel the Noble Lord
to bring forward the plans which he had opened to the
House, that the sense of the House might be taken on them.
After a few words in explanatio❑ from Mr. Arrwoon,
which were inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. GOULBURN did not rise to prolong this conver-
sation, but be felt it necessary to state, that he also had
had applications from many merchants, who complained
strongly of the suspense in which they were kept by the
delay in the measures opened to the House by the Noble
Lord, particularly with respect to the timber duties. It
was true that the proposed duties were not intended to
come into operation before the 10th of October, and that
vessels now ready would have time to he out and home by
that time ; but then there was an uncertainty as to what
would be the state of the trade as far as regarded the du-
ties by that time. It was not and could not be known to
the merchants whether Parliament would ratify the Noble
Lord's plan. But the delay with respect to these duties
was not the only cause of anxiety. There were some who
looked upon the whole proceeding with some degree of
alarm, for it appeared that the sum on which the Noble
Lord calculated as the produce of the new duties on timber
was 600,0001., which was to supply a part of the large
amount of taxation proposed to be taken off; but. it should
be considered that the new duties not commencing till the
10th of October, only a very small part of the expected
amount could come into the account of the present year,
and when it was recollected that there was only a small
surplus revenue from the last year, the apprehension was
not ill grounded that there might be a deranged budget at
the close.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the persons engaged in
the timber trade had had ample notice that the duties were
not to commence before the 10th of October, and as the
vessels which sailed for Canada went about this time,
and could be back before that period, it could make nol
difference to their speculation whether the measure of the

Notde Lord were proceeded with now, or at a later pe-
riod of the session.

Mr. GOULBURN said, that what the merchants wanted
was some guarantee for the first step.
Mr. HERRIES also had had many applications from
parties expressing their great anxiety as to the delay in
the Noble Lord's plans, which he must say was unprece-
dented. He did hope, therefore, that the Noble Lord
would reconsider the subject, and bring forward the timber
duties earlier than the time he had fixed. Before he sat
down he would ask the Noble Lord one question with re-
spect to the timber duties. He had heard that the pro.
posed alteration was not intended to apply to Ireland. He
wished to know how that was.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
no alteration of duties with respect to timber from the Ca-
nadas to Ireland was intended. . _

Mr. HUNT said, that when be had been only a fort-
night in that House he complained that sufficient atten-
tion was not paid to the petitions of the people, arid he
was now glad to find that he had got two such able allies
in advocating those petitions as the twin Members for Bo-
roughbridge. He admitted that the Reform plan brought
forward did not contain what the great mass of petitions
presented to that House had prayed for—(Hear,
at the same time he must say he did not oppose the Bill.
The petitions, by the way, were not as numerous as the
Hon. Member (Mr. Attwood) had stated. They were not
2,000, but somewhere about 600. They complained of
many grievances; they prayed for retrenchment, economy,
the reduction of pensions and useless places; they preyed
for vote by ballot, and of short durations of Parliament,
and there were only two of them which prayed for that
which Ministers proposed.—(Hear, hear, from Sir Charles
Wetherell.)—Yet in common honesty he must say, that
though the Bill gave little of what was asked, and though
he should be a hypocrite if he said he should be finally
satisfied with what it proposed to give, he should give his
cordial support to the measure.—(Hear, hear. )—He must
also add, that though the people had not got what they
asked, they were, in every city, town, and parish in the
kingdom, delighted with it.—(Cheers.)—They were
ahnost mad with joy at its introduction, and from every
part of the country thousands of petitions would come in,
praying Parliament to pass the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)

The—House then resolved itself into the Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER most
sincerely felt for the distressed situation of the West India
interest. If any thing could be done to alleviate that dis-
tress, consistently with a due regard to the other interests
of the empire, it would be the duty of Ministers to pro-
pose it, and of the House to give the proposition their
most serious attention. In proposing a reduction of tax-
ation, it was the duty of Government to select those items
which pressed most seriously on the humbler classes of the
community. He knew, from experience, that a small re-
duction of the duty on sugar would not benefit the con-
sumer, for the reduction which was made last year had
failed to produce that effect. Therefore, in framing his
financial plan, he had considered it better to repeal the
duty on sea-borne coals than to reduce duty en sugar. He
was not certain that even a large reduction of the latter
duty would have proved beneficial. It was his opinion
that another remedy must be found for the distress of the
West India interest than the reduction of the sugar duty.
As long as this country was unable to consume the whole
of the sugar proluced in the West India colonies, so long
must the price of the article in the home market be regu-
lated by the price abroad. The causes of West India
distress were too deeply seated to allow such a palliative as
the reduction of the sugar duty to prove of any material
advantage; indeed, he considered it almost impossible for
the Government to propose any measure of relief for those
distresses. Under these circumstances, he did not intend
to propose any reduction of the existing duty. The reduc-
tion made last year had produced little effect beyond put-
ting money in the pockets of the retail dealers. He there-
moved " That it is the opinion of this Committee that to-
wards raising the supplies to be granted to his Majesty, the
several duties on sugar an] molasses imposed by the Act of
last session, and the bounties thereon, be continued for one
year."
The Marquis of CHANDOS expressed his belief that
the Noble Lord sincerely felt a desire to alleviate the dis-
tress under which the West Indian interest was labouring.
He (the Marquis of Chandos) had a duty to perform on
the present occasion. He intended to submit a proposi-
tion similar to that which was moved by Mr. Huskisson
last year, when the Noble Lord and the members about
him voted with Mr. Huskisson in a minority of 144.
He would not dwell upon the subject. The distressed
condition of the West Indian interest was perfectly well
known to the House, and it was his honest opinion that if
it continued much longer, it would be impossible to an-
swer for the colonies. lie would move an amendment,
which was exactly the same as that proposed by Mr. Hue-
kisson last year, namely, " That it is expedient that all
brown Muscovado and plain sugar, the produce of, or im-
ported from, the British dominions, in Atnerica or the
island of Mauritius, be imported into the United King-
dom on the payment of a duty of 20s. per cwt."
Mr. BERNAL urged the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to take into consideration the propriety of permitting
sugar to be used in breweries and distilleries. He was
aware that the jealousy of the landed interest would be
excited on this point, but if they calmly considered the
subject, they would perceive that they had no cause to
apprehend any injury from the adoption of this suggestion.
At present it was found necessary to import barley from
the continent. The sugar, therefore, would merely supply
the place of the imported barley. If the Chancellor of
the Exchequer would hold out no hope that he would
take this subject into his immediate and serious considera-
tion, he would vote for the amendment.
Mr. H ART DAVIS also recommended the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to permit sugar to be used in breweries
and distilleries. _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the subject had occupied his attention. If sugars were
permitted to be used in breweries, it must of course dis-
place malt in the manufacture of beer. At the present
moment the produce of the malt duty was daily increasing,
He found upon inquiry, that if the produce of the malt
duty should go on as it had done, there would be an in-
crease of revenue on that article this year of nearly
800,000/.—(Hear.) lie did not feel justified in doing any
thing which could endanger that branch of the revenue.
With respect to distilleries the case was different. He was
well aware that at the present moment the landed interest
would not suffer by the temporary use of sugar instead of
barley, in distilling. At present there was very little bar-
ley on hand, as every practical farmer must know.
Mr. GORDON expressed himself dissatisfied with the
statement made by the Chancellor of thelExchequer. He
said to the West Indian interest, " You are very ill-treated,
You are in a ruinous state, I know ; but I can do nothing
for you." The Noble Lord seemed to have forgotten the
opinion he formerly held—namely, that the revenue did
not suffer to the extent of the reduction of duty. The
Noble Lord was bound to take one of two courses—either
to reduce the duty, or to allow sugar to be used in brewe-
ries and distilleries. The West Indian interest had sti-cog
claims to the consideration, he might say the pity, of the
House.

Mr. IRVING expressed a hope that the Government
would permit sugar to be used in the manufacture of spi-
rits and beer.

Sir E. CARRINGTON said that the Legislature was
bound to assist the West India interest, because it com-
pelled them to attend to the instruction and comforts ofthe
mgro population.

DIr.BENETT preferred the proposition of the Noble
Marquis for the reduction of the duty, to that of the Hon.
Member for Rochester (Mr. Bernal.)
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said that the interests of the
West India proprietors had been sacrificed more than those
of any other body of men whatever. He believed that the
reduction of duty proposed by the Noble Marquis would
do little injury to the revenue, whilst it would be produc-
tive of great benefit to the West Indian interests.
11r. HUME begged to put in a claim for the consumers
in this country. The duty was a war duty, and the Go•
vernnaent was pledged to repeal it in time of peace. The
revenue had not suffered from the former reduction of 35.,
and he believed it would sustain little injury from the re-
duction now proposed.

MABERLY said this was entirely a question of
finance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had
reduced as
much taxation as he thought he could do, and it was
hardly fair to deal with him in this abstract way. The
question was argued as if it were the West India proprie-
tore who paid the duty, whereas the duty was paid by the
consumer.
Colonel DAVIES said that if the duty was so high as
to prevent the consumption of the article, it was an in-
jury to the producer.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS supported the amendtnent. The
objection to the use of sugar in breweries did not apply to
the distilleries. He hoped that the Noble Lord (Althorp)
would reconsider the subject of those duties.
Mr. W. WHITMORE said that the distress of the West
India interest was not the consequence of any law, but
arose from the state of things, and did not appear to be
easily susceptible of remedy. He hoped the protecting
duty against East India sugar would not be left out of
consideration.
Mr. CLIVE, we believe, opposed the amendment,
Sir F. BURDETT said that the Noble Lord (Althorp)
had been but a short time in office, yet he had reduced
much taxation ; be had done in a few months more than

could be expected, and more than would have been done
by the late administration in the same period of time. If
the proposition could be made out that the Noble Lord
could dispense with this duty, or that there was a proba-
bility that by the reduction, the same, or nearly the same
revenue would accrue from increased consumption, he had
no doubt the Noble Lot(' would feel happy, as on every
other occasion, to afford relief to the public. Gentlemen
should have some little patience, as the present Ministers
had been a short time in office. With respect to the
West India interests, they could not he relieved by a par-
tial measure like this : relief to them should be upon a
large scale, and he thought, on consideration, some mea-
sure might be brought forward to relieve the West India
interests with the whole community.

Mr. GOULBURN had come down to the House with
considerable anxiety as to the intentions of the Noble Lord,
knowing how he (Mr. Goulburn) bad been pressed upon
this subject. Some of the classes proposed to be relieved
by the Noble Lord's budget were not likely to thank him,
but relief to the West India interest would excite their gra-
titude. But his greatest anxiety and apprehension was,
as to the financial prospects of the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord had proposed, at first, to reduce taxation to
the amount of 1,700,0001., and by new taxes to raise
1,200,000/ , making a reduction of taxation to the amount
of 500,000/. But it now appeared that the new taxes
were to produce only 500,0001. ; so that there was a
balance or difference between the taxes taken off anal the
taxes imposed, of 910,000/., although the Noble Lord did
not calculate upon a larger surplus at the end of the year
than 300,00/. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded
by opposing the proposition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
with respect to the finances of the country, the Right
Hon. Gentleman had calculated upon an increase of the
duties in the current year, and he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had looked on the revenue in the same way.
Ile believed that he was right in calculating upo❑ an in-
crease. But he had the means of knowing what was the
state of the revenue during the last two months; and,
looking at that, he could say that he had not the slightest
apprehension of what was stated by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. With respect to the duty on tobacco, he had cal-
culated not so much on the increase of the revenue by the
increase of consumption, as by the reduction of smuggling.
This argument would not apply to sugar. A reduction
of duty on that article, unless it were large, would hare
little effect upon the consumption. The consumption had
decreased last year nearly to the amount of the duty
taken off.

Mr. GOULBURN explained.
Mr. 'WARBURTON said that after pressing for the
reduction of the duty on coals, he could not vote for the
amendment.__( Hear.)
Mr. HUNT supported the amendment, because it would
give relief to the labouring poor of the country. As to
what had been said of the great reduction of taxation by
the present Ministers, he could not find any reduction at
all. The Hon. Baronet opposite, he thought, had found
out a mare's nest.—(Cries of question.)
Air. FERGUSON and Mr. K. DOUGLAS explained.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 49
Against it 147
Maj rity in favour of Ministers -9s
The resolution was then agreed to, and the House re-
sumed. Report to be received on Monday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of.
Lord AIORPETH presented petitions from Knottingley
and other places in the West Riding of Yorkshire in
favour of Retrenchment and Reform. He stated the
prayer of these petitions generally, because they had been
agreed to before the announcement of the great measure of
Reform brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers.
Colonel SIBTHORPE availed himself of that oppor-
tunity to collect some gross and unwarrantable misrepre-
sentations which had appeared in the public press respect-
ing his sentiments and his conduct. He was represented
to have said that he would give his most strenuous oppo-
sition to the second reading of the Reform Bill. He had
said no such thing. He had said that be would not oppose
this Bill in its first stage, because he thought that the
country ought to have an opportunity of making itself ac-
quainted with the details of it. He had likewise said,
that though friendly to Reform, he would not pledge him-
self at that moment to support the details of the Bill.
In another paper it had been stated that he was the no-
minee of Lord Monson for the city of Lincoln. This
was a gross falsehood. He was an independent Member,
freely elected by the people, and he was not, ❑or would he
condescend to be, the nominee of any man. It had like-
wise been said that his constituents, being 1,300 in num-
ber, were all open to the highest bidder. This was the
most gross and unwarrantable falsehood of all. His con-
stituents were as honest and independent a body as any
constituency in the whole country.
The House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.