The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-28 00:00:00

THE SUN,

had long been of opinion that this was one of th
grievances that ought to be removed. lie was happ)
the notion had been brought forward by the lion.
Member for Cork, and should give it his cordial support.
Mr. NAPIER asked tlny.e who said they were ii
favour of the rights of courcience to act upon their own
principle. He only asked for his Church that it should
be maintained in the possession of its property and the
right to exercise freely the privilege of individual
judgment on religious matters. He was ready to
grant these to others and claimed them for him-
self. But it was always complained that this impost
fell upon individuals; whereas, the fact was, that the
title of the Church to this property was based upon the
same ground as the title to all the property settled upon
the plantations in Ulster by the English Sovereign, and
the present possessors had taken that property subject
to that charge. Unless they could maintain that pro
perty charged for a Protestant clergyman could not be
taken and enjoyed by Roman Catholics, there was no
force in the arguments of those who supported the mo-
tion. With regard to the maintenance of a National
Church, he thought the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had put that question on a right footing,
when he said that the maintenance of the Established
Church in this country was not for the purpose of main
taining any sect of religionists, but as an act of horn:ge
to religion itself; and whatever was said as to the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland, he was ready to place it in
proud comparison with any Church in Christendom.--
(Hear, hear.) If they commenced opening up
those questions as regarded what was, paid in
Ireland for the support of the Protestant Church,
they should take care that the discussion of these did
not lead to the opening up other questions. They had
better take care lest the propriety of the Maynooth
Grant was not questioned, for it was double the 511:11 now
complained of, and whether it might not be urged that
other grants of a like nature ought to be abolished. No
man had a higher respect for religious liberty than he
lieu, but feeling that the property enjoyed by the Church
to which he belonged was originally assigned to it, he
thought it would be a direct violation of the principles
of religious liberty now to divest it of that property,
and he therefore opposed the motion.

Mr. REYNOLIS said it was clear that the Honour-
able Gentleman was a warm defender of the Protestant
Church, but he doubted whether the archbishops and
bishops of the Church would thank him for the de
fence he had made. lie had stated that the Protes
taut Church
~ was descended from St. Patrick,
but he had been taught from earliest infancy that St.
Patrick was a Roman Catholic saint, and consequently
could not have been the founder of the Protestant
Church. He was not there, however, to discuss
that question with the lion. Gentleman—he was there
to speak of ministers' money—and he begged to remind
the lion. Gentleman that the large revenues which both
the Protestant Church in England and Ireland enjoyed
were taken from the Roman Catholic Church.—(hear,
hear.) He had a double right to complain of this minis-
ters' money, and for this reason. That money amounted
in the aggregate to 15,0001. annually, and 11,000/. of
that SUM was paid by the city of Dublin, which ho had
the honour to represent, while the remainder was spread
over a few towns in other parts of Ireland. His con•
stituents, therefore, paying upwards of four-fifths of the
sum, he certainly had a right to complain and to insist
that that money should be taken from the shoulders of
the people, and paid from the proper quarter. Last year
he was a member of a Committee appointed to inquire
into the subject, arid he regretted that that Committee
decided as it did. He was in the minority, and was still
more sorry to say that the Right lion. Gentleman the
Master of the Mint, who knelt at the same altar with
himself, gave the casting vote against his party. The
Ecclesiastical Comtni=sioners of Ireland appeared to
make a point of spending as much they received, which
they could do, nu doubt, if their income was 6,128,0004
instead of 1,628,000/. It should be remembered that this
was the richest Church in the world, and as one of the
Catholic population of Ireland, he declared that he
looked upon the temporalities of that Church as a broad
mark of degradation; and that he believed, as an Irish-
man and a Catholic, that that feeling would exist in
Ireland so long as that plague spot was allowed to exist.
He should be unworthy, indeed, of the name of a free-
man and a Christian, if he submitted quietly to this
infliction, which he believed would not be tolerated in
any other country in the civilized world. The people of
England were taxed to support an army of 40,000 men
in Ireland. Let them destroy the temporalities of the
Established Church, and they might withdraw that force
altogether.—(Bear, hear, and cheers.) In conclusion,
he called upon the Government to come forward and
♦indicate the rights of Catholics, and put a stop to a
system which was everywhere regarded as unjcst and
intolerable.

Mr. NAPIER said that he rose to put the House
right with respect to the statement of the Hon. Member
for Dublin, that the revenue of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioeers was upwards of 1,200,0001. He would find
in the appendix of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners'
report that their revenue for the current year was
71,0001.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said, that whatever his
views might be upon the real merits of the question, he
should not consent to deprive entirely his .Protestant
fellow-countrymen in Ireland of their political station.
Sir J. TYItELL said that the avowed intention of
many Catholic Members of the House being to eradicate
the Church Establishment in Ireland, he begged leave
to say that he should not be tempted by any topics
they had indulged in to follow them into all the
details which the debate had just been turning
upon. Ho was especially desirous not to give
offence to any Catholic Member of the House,
but he could not refrain from quoting the opinion
expressed upon the subject by Mr. Macaulay, whom
they could not sufficiently regret was no longer a Mi-
nister or a Member. (The Ilon. Member then read an
extract from Mr. Macaulay's "History of England,"
strongly animadverting on the conduck,of the Roman
Catholics in several important events recorded in the
histories of England and France, which was received by
many Irish Members with cheers and laughter, and
cries of " Oh, oh.") The Hon. Member repeatedly de-
clared them to be the opinions of the late Whig Member
for Edinburgh, and not his own, and as such entitled to
tle respect of the House. The lion. Baronet then
quoted the statement made by Mr. Whiteside in his
ork upon Italy, that at Rome and throughout the
country it was not permitted to record the virtues of
deceased persons on their tombstones, without making
any allusion to a future state. The Hon. Baronet was
frequently interrupted by the Hon. Member for Dublin,
and other lion. Members, wi h the cry of " The tempo-
ralities."
The House then divided, when there appeared—
Fur the previous question
Against it 44
Majority
COMMITTEES.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved that if at any time
during the sitting of a Select Committee of this House
the quorum of Members fixed by the Hoi.ue shall not
be present, the clerk of the Committee shall call the
attention of the chairman to the fact, who shall there-
upon suspend the proceedings of the Committee until a
quorum be present, or adjourn the Committee to some
future day.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that great inconvenience
arose from Members being on four or five different Com-
mittees, and he should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. HUME then suggested that the omission should
be reported to the House.
Sir G. GREY thought that would be attended with
great convenience.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. SOTHERON obtained leave to bring in a Bill
to make better provision for certifying tables of contri-
butions to friendly societies, and for ascertaining the
solvency of such societies
The report on the Ordnance excess was received in
Committee of Supply.
The Prisoners Removal (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past
One o'clock.