The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

gretting that the Honeurnble and Learned Gentleman
hadnot brought his talents and abilities to a better ac-
count than to present them with a reproduction of a
motion which had been repeatedly submitted to the
House by the Honourable Member for Finsbury, when
he moved for leave to bring in a Bill to effect that ob-
ject, and proposed, at the same time, some system of
registration and a declaration, by way of drawing the
lino of demarcation between Churchmen and Dis-
senters. It appeared to him that ,such a measure
would be a premium upon dissent, as it had
been termed. He would not say that it would
be done to avoid the payment of these rates ; but let
them take the case of the north of England, i❑ which
there were many Presbyterians mingled with Churchmen,
with whom they lived in terms of iutimacy and perfect
harmony, and who frequented each other's churches oc-
casionally. If such a measure were adopted, it would at
once draw a line of demarcation between those parties;
because if the one party found that by declaring them-
selves Presbyterians, and not using the Church, they
should be exempt, they would throw the whole burden
upon the others, and the landlord would ultimately get
the benefit of the change. It would create invidious
distincticns, also, in the letting of land; as ilthe Church-
man got it it would be liable to church-rates, and if it
was let to a Presbyterian it would not be liable. lie
regretted, therefore, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man was not able to suggest some more feasible plan
than that which he had submitted to the House. He
could only reiterate the opinio❑ he had expressed on a
former occasion, that it would be most desirable to apply
a remedy to these scandals, although of late years they
had been less frequent than formerly. If some means
could be pointed out by which funds could be provided
for maintaining the fabric of the Church, he should be
most happy to give his assistance in adopting it ; but
looking at the mode in which the proposition had been
brought forward, he was not very sanguine that it con-
tained anything like a remedy for the existing state of
things.—(Hear).
Colonel THOMPSON said he had been instructed to
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Tavistock,
and he should shortly state the reasons upon which he
conceived those instructions to have been founded. The
instructions came from men of wealth and liberality un-
bounded—from men of great ability and intelligence—
and be thought them rather ominous. He was told by
those who instructed him that ever since the year 1836
they had in their own district practically abolished
church-rates, and they said that the liberty which they
had achieved for themselves they wished to extend to
others. Then it appeared that liberty from church-rates
might be achieved. But why were church-rates so
loudly complained of? Simply because they were
deemed an injustice to the Dissenters. In reply to that
it was alleged that the Dissenters had purchased their
properties subject to church-rates. But he would ask,
had all the Dissenters purchased all the estates which
they possessed? Surely some Dissenters inherited their
properties, their fathers saying to them, " This church-
rate
was a robbery of me—it was a robbery of your
grandfather before me—it was a robbery as far as human
memory extended. I hand down this land with a protest
against church-rates, and I enjoin you to resist them to the
utmost of your power." Under such circumstances it
would not be denied that church-rates were a hardship
upon Dissenters. In reply to that, however, it had been
said, and often repeated, that church-rates were legal ;
doubtless, they were legal, but that was not the question.
All the heretics burnt in Smithfield were legally burnt.
The question was not whether church-rates were legal,
but whether they were just and expedient. In his opinion,
laws which excited so much discontent could not stand,
would not stand, and perhaps ought not tea' stand.
Mr. HUME certainly had objected to placing the
burden of maintaining the fabric of the:Church' upon the
Consolidated Fund, although he thought favourably, upon
the whole, of the plan submitted to that House by Mr.
Rice. Regarding church-rates as a source of religious
strife, he wished to get rid of them. It appeared to him
that the plan of the Hon. and Learned Member for Ox-
ford would give security and satisfaction by giving relief
to the Dissenters. Those who attended the public wor-
ship of of the Church of England ought to maintain the
fabric of the Church.

Lord D. STUART said it appeared that every Hon.
Member wbo had spoken had admitted the necessity of
making some alteration in the present state of the law
regarding church-rates. He confessed that he concurred
in a great degree in the views expressed by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Oxford, because he was ex-
tremely anxious that Dissenters should be relieved from
the burden and grievance of paying church-rates. He
thought, however, that they would be hardly justified in
abolishing the provisions for maintaining the fabric of
the Church, without providing a substitute. Although
there was a very general feeling abroad that the law
should be altered in this respect, he believed
that there were very few who would wish to overthrow
the Church altogether. His Honourable and
Learned Friend, the Member for Cockermouth, threw out
a suggestion which he thought was good, when he pro-
posed that they should add some words to the resolution
before the House, pledging them to find a substitute for
the church-rates, which they declared ought to be
abolished. He, however, confessed he did not much like
to agree to an amendment that was thus brought forward
without any previous notice. He had some idea of
moving an amendment himself—(Laughter)—but he felt
that it would not be fair for him to do so without giving
the House notice of his intention.—(Hear, hear.) He
suggested to the Hon and Learned Member for Oxford
the propriety of withdrawing his amendment, when he
would have no difficulty in supporting the original mo-
tion.
If he should vote for this motion, it would be only
for the purpose of opposing the principle therein in-
volved, and with the implied understanding that a sub-
stitute for these church-rates would be devised, so as not
to leave the Church without any provision for its proper
maintenance and support.
Mr. C. W. MARTIN said that in the borough which
he represented the re had been a struggle of many years'
duration on the subject of church-rates; the Conserva-
tives considering it their duty to abstain from anything
that might be supposed to savour of a surrender oC the
principle of church-rates. The principal church in the
town at length fell into so dilapidated a condition that
one of the churchwardens undertook the repair of the
building out of his own packet; his example was fol-
lowed by another churchwarden. It was then felt by the
Churchmen of the town that they must either surrender
the principle for which they contended so long, or allow
the building to fall about their ears, for hardly any re-
pairs would suffice. Then a voluntary subscription was
entered into for the purpose of building a new church;
and the moment a proposition of that kind was an-
nounced, the list of subscribers was filled with conside-
rable alacrity, and they found no difficulty in raising
5,0001. or 6,0001. If the Established Church was to be
considered one of the institutions of the country, then
they ought to look about them carefully before they
took any such step as that then proposed to them; fur
if the principle of voluntary subscription were once
adopted in a few places, as it had been in Newport, the
example would rapidly spread.
Sir W. CLAY observed, that the question was not as
to the state of the law, but as to the justice of the case.
Church-rates were just enough when all the people of
England were of one faith, but there was a manifest in-
justice in taxing all for the benefit of some. The Irish
got rid of church cess in 1833, and he saw no reason
whpy the English should not get rid of church-rates. For
his part, as a member of the Church, he was ashamed of
being a party to applying for the assistance of the poor
on behalf of a most richly-endowed Church, which com-
prehended the wealthiest classes in this country, as well
as many of the independent portion of the middle orders.
He felt it a high imputation upon the Church to which
he belonged that the public were called upon to pay for
washing the clergyman's surplice, and for coals for
warming the church. He was ready to exclaim—
" Pudet Lace opprobria nobis
Et dici potuisse, et non potuisse refelli."
He thought it disgraceful that the members of such a
church could not find the means of maintaing its fabric.
He would support the motion of the Hon. Member for
Tavistock; for he felt it his duty to protest most
strongly against the continuance of a tax which, while
it was of no importance to the Church, tended to keep
up a feeling of irritation and hostility towards that es-
tablishment.

Mr. GOULBURN would remind Hon. Members op-
posite, when they talked of the Church being so rich,
of the multitudes that hail grown up in this country who
have been rescued from ignorance and crime by its in-
strumentality—he would ask them to show him whether
the wealth of that Church was more than adequate to
supply the wants of the people for such instruction?
They were all labouring to enable it to impart the most
general and efficient instruction, and yet some Honour-
able Members wished to deprive it of those means which
were so necessary to effect that object. The land had
been subject to this impost from the earliest times, was
still subject to it, and could not be released from it with-
out the intervention of Parliament. If the land then was
so subject, why was it now sought to relieve it from this
impost more than from any of the other legal burdens
which wero upon it? Baying said so much, let it not
be thought that he was opposed to a consideration
whether means might not be supplied by which church-
rates might be placed upon a footing more accept-
able to all classes. He had no desire to press upon
any particular class of persons, or to exact
taxes of any kind that were unacceptable to such per-
sons. It was, however, in his opinion impossible to listen
to the debate that had taken place without coming to
the conclusion that it would be most unwise in the House
to give its sanction to the resolution that had been pro-
posed. They were called upon to affirm distinctly the
principle that church-rates should be abolished. Some
Hon. Members had declared that in voting for the abo-
lition of church-rates they intended that some substitute
would be found for them. But if they put such a reso-
lution on the journals of the House that church-rates
should be abolished, that was the letter of the bond, and
whin they came to consider the question of a substitute,
they would be told that their time was gone by, for
they had already agreed to abolish church-rates alto-
gether. But if they did come to deal with the question
of a substitute, what would be their difficulties? The
Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford proposed to ex-
empt the property of Dissenters altogether from the
burden to which the members of the Established
Church were subject. Was not this opinion open to all
the objections urged by the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
and to which no person as yet had attempted to give an
answer? Was it not impossible to accede to such a pro-
op
fo
as i t beforeput
suggestionst heullyienrethme
asdhea pine
resolution.whe Several n t
" .as.
ether
merely
the courso of this discussion. Some Hon. Members
were disposed to sacrifice the property of the Church,
and to augment the interest of leaseholders at the ex-
pense of those by whim those leases were granted. Now
these were remedies upon the merits of which it was
impossible to express an opinion, upon a mere resolution,
without having all the details of the respective measures
suggested before them. He was opposed to the con-
sideration of such an important question, unless it came
before the House in the shape of a Bill. They could then
see whether they could abolish the church-rates without
providing a substitute. se, therefore, called upon the