The Sun.
London, England, 1831-06-22 00:00:00

.onion between that eoutitsy and the State, he (LorJ
'Caret/ ioas compelled to say he recognized the necessity of
'no higher union than the protection which was due to
that Chiirch to support its Ministers in the proper dis
\ chargek their duties. If the Noble Earl meant by the
f union of the Church and State, that reciprocity which,
. ' gave the Church protection and support in return for the
zeal and attention with which its Ministers discharged
their duties, and the superior merit of the religious instruc-
tion which it afforded the people, he was prepared to agree
with him ; but if the Noble Earl meant a political union,
if he meant to make the members of the Church of Eng-
land parties to the support of political power, he would
tell him that the Church had very seldom exercised that
power with advantage to themselves, and often with great
detriment to the public.—(Hear.) I trust, therefore,
it is not to me that the Noble Earl imputes hostility to
the Cliurch. I wish for Protestant ascendancy, but I
wiah it to be obtained by a conviction of the superior
'truth of the doctrines of Protestantism, and to be upliebi
by the exemplary conduct and piety of those who are to
expound its doctrines. He (Lord Grey) deprecated all
religious dicussion when mixed up with political sabiects.
He perceived, indeed, that the Noble Earl still retained
some of the feelings which were engendereal by the discus-
sion of that question for the final settlement of which he
considered no price too high. Ile was convinced that
those who were so anxious to promote Protestant ascen-
dancy had (he m'ght exclaim, oh, short-sighted men)—
done more than their enemies to inflate the cause of reli-
gion and promote the differences of religious sects. He
was as warm a friend of the Church of England ea any
man, but he wished it supported by the !write of its doc-
trines, and not by being placed in hostility to others by
the means of measures which have Itti effect directly con-
trary to that which their promoters intend. But then it was
said they were not only destroying the ascendancy 4 the
Church, but the constitutional influence of that House. Now
be thought, the true way to preserve its influence was by
destroying that which rendered it obnoxious to the great
body of the people. It was his opinion, that the inflieseare
of the Peers would be best preserved by the wholesome
exercise of that power which their station, their wealth,
and their superior acquirements must command, and
which the provisions of the Bill would call into exercise,
rather than by their continuing to attempt to tnaiutain a
power which was become obnoxious to their countrymen.
But it was not really the influence of the House that was
to be affected. It was the influence of some few c-f their
Lordships who had the power to return some eight or ten
Members each into the other House, to the prejudice of
the rest—(Hear, hear)—and who were enabled, through
that power, to command plaits and advantages for all
their connections.—(Hear.) It would be no longer in the
power of any Member of that House to exclaim " there
are seven of us"—(A laugh, and hear)—for the purpose of
commanding any request however extravagant. Peers,
through the effect of the Bill, would exercise a wholesome
influeuce on their neighbourhood, by cultivating the good
opinion of those who surrounded them ; and an end
would be put to that odious syatetn of nomination, which
was at once a monstrous anomaly in a representative system,
and at the same time exercised contrary to all those prin-
.-4)les of the Constitution which declared it a high snit
demeanour for a Peer to interfere in the election of !dem-
hers to sit in the other House of Parliament. It was on
these principles that he had advocated the measure which
had been brought forward, and had given his support.
and had used all diligence in preparing that measures in
which he concurred with his colkagues, which had
received the sanction of the Sovereign, tylio had now
recommended it formally to their Lordships from the
Throne. That measure too, has was happy to know, had
met with the approbation of the country. There was
one other subject on which he would make an observation,
though it could be better answered, and with more autho-
rity-, by other persons than by him. The Noble Earl com-
plained of the violent attacks which were made by the
Press on that 1101.19 C, on the Church, the Monarchy, and
the Constitution. Certainly he was not inclined to he
partial to the malignity the Noble Earl complained of in
those publications, hut the Noble Earl seemed to think
that the Government was culpable in not prosecuting those
publications. He could appeal, however, to the Noble
Earl on the cross-bench (the Earl of Eldon, we believe),
whether it were enough that a publication was a malignant
libel to procure the punishment of its author. There were
other considerations of equal importance which must de-
termine the prosecution. He had heard that Noble Earl
express this sentiment and say, that it was not always in
the power of the Government to check such publications.
lie would remind the Noble Earl that this was not the first
time that such publications had made their appearance.
They.had been going on, more or leas, for many years,
sometimes with greater malignity—sometimes with leas, but
always tending to injure the liberty of the Press, The Noble
Earl had tried to put down such publications=—bid he suc-
ceed ? No—For a time they had been comparatively insig.
uificant ; hot afterwards they had broken out with as much
vehemence as ever. All that he could say was, that when-
ever it was the opinion of the Law Advisers of the Crown
that the law could he effectually applied, he should give his
vote and sanction for carrying the law into execution. He
must, however, be allowed to say, that there always Was
a considerable difficulty in ascertaining beforehand, Whether
prosecution would do more barns or good. When an
offence was committed, and when it appeared likely that a
prosecution would not further the object kept in view by the
writer—when it appeared likely that a prosecution would
contribute to suppress a writing and promote the peace of
the country, neither he nor his colleagues had ever shown
themselves backward to call the power of the law into ex-
istence. They had heard the Noble Duke congratulate
the House at that part of his Majesty's Speeds which re-
ferred to the good Government of the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, by which the necessity of enacting new laws to
strengthen the Executive Government with further oowar
would be prevented. He was certain that -tech good
effects would not have been produced if the measures so
loudly called for by the Noble Earl had been acceded to.
pne individual had been designated by the Noble Earl,
he hardly knew in what terms, but an individual who
had been the subject of a prosecution, and of whom the
prosecution
had been discontinued. The Noble Earl
seemed to say that the Government had not kept its
word, and had employed a pretence for evading or avoid,
ing a prosecution for which it had no inclination. The
Government had no intention, when the dissolution of
Parliament took place, that that prosecution should be
abandoned, or that the law should not be suffered to take
its course. But at the dissolution of Parliament, the
law under which the prosecution was instituted expired,
and it was the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown
in Ireland, as well as in this country the distinct opinion
of the Law Officers, that the prosecution could not he
sustained. There had been decisions of the Court, on the
point, and precedents had established that the prosecution
had expired with the Act. He could assure the Noble
Earl, that there was no pretest used for evading the pro-
secution ; that no compromise had ever been entered into
or contemplated, and that nothing but the circumstances
be had mentioned caused the prosecution to be disconti-
nued. He did not know that there were any other thing;
contained in the Noble Earl's speech which he was called
on to answer. He expected, indeed, to have heard other
grounds for attacking his Majesty's Ministers, and be ex-
pected to have been called on to answer other assertions.
He had heard nothing from the Noble Ecrl which should
disturb their Lordships' unanimity. The Noble Earl had
toot objected to any part of the Address ; he had not ob-
jected to the general principle of the policy of his Majesty's
Government ; and on every question hut that of Reform
the Noble Earl concurred with him, and left him nothing
to explain. On the subject of the dissolution of Parlia-
ment no approbation was expressed in the Speech from the
Throne, and asthat subject the Noble Earl had said no-
thing. If a., .ning were said, he was prepared to answer
it ; but as nothing had been said, he had nothing to
answer. He had net heard any general objections to the
address ; he had not heard that it was intended to propose
any amendment ; and, under these circumstances, having
answered the Noble Earl, he should sit down and not de-
tain their Lordships any longer. With respect to the
great measure which had been called revolutionary, he
‘v"oirt only say that it was a measure called for by the
necessities of the times, and, if carried, would give, be
firmly believed, security to all the institutions of the
cuntry ; and if factiously opposed, would lead to conse-
quences which he dreaded to contemplate.—(Cheers. )
The Earl of WINCRILSA explained. He had not
imputed to the Noble Earl that he entertained revolutionary
principles, and he wished he could quote no instances of
those connected with the Government,whose conduct did
not countenance what he had said.
ut a Noble Relation
of the Noble Earl's had been present atatlable where the
toast was drank of " The Sovereignty
of the people
that was be thought, a proof of the assertion he
bad Government, and
made.L
Another Noble Lord connected with the
given, at another public assembly, as a toast, " The Laid-
beral Clergy of the Church of England," and had after-
wards drank " The Dissenters." These were persons
connected with the Government, and their conduct au-
thoriaed him to make the assertions he bad made. As to
the connection between the Church of England and the
State, he conceived that connection had brought down great
blessings upon the people.
Earl GREY explained, that the toast referred to
The
not " The Sovereignty of the People," but it was "
People, from whom al I Sovereignty is derived." More-
over, the Noble ?MOD alluded to—i-for whom he felt