The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-22 00:00:00

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.

Lord A LTHORPE rose to bring forward his promisedato-
tion on the State of the Country. He felt the necessity of bring-
ing forward a specific motion on this important subject, be-
cause the Noble Marquis, upon the • former discussions, had
declared that no Member would Be pledged by the result of
them to support or to oppose- any particular measure. He
(Lord A.) was therefore desirous to call upon every Gentleman
to express his sentiments upon the present distressed state of the
country, arid upon the proposals which had been made by Mi-
nisters for the relief of that distress. If his object were merely
to discuss the plan of the Noble Marquis, his address to the
House would be short enough ; but as he wished to state his
own views, he feared he would be under the necessity of
going somewhat into detail, though he assured the House'
he would be as brief as possible.—(Hear, hear, hear !)
A doubt had been expressed as to the effect of 'taxation ;
and there were not wanting some who bad alleged that
taxation formed no part of the cause of the present distress.
Until the present Session he had never known it to be neces-
sary to argue that taxation affected the price of produce.—
(Cheers !) - Agricultural -produce was at this moment at no
higher price than it was in 1792, and be believed the
price of every thing else was risen. On a former night
the Noble Marquis had estimated taxation upon the agricultur-
ists at only one-fifth of • their rents. How the Noble Marquis
had arrived at this conclusion, or from what data, he was
not able to ascertain ; but it was not direct taxation
alone which pressed upon• the agriculturist. It was almost
impossible to calculate the extent to which he was reached byin-
direct taxation. Taxation must increase the price of labour, and
this must press particularly on the agriculturist ; for as the
oavages 1:4 the Agricultural labourer were only sufficient to proa
cure him the common necessaries of life, . it followed that by so.
much as his wages failed in procuring tlo.te necessaries, by so
much must he be a burthen on his parish: In manufacturing
districts he conceived the case was somewhat different, for, as
the wages of the manufacturing labourer afforded him certain
luxuries, a diminution of those wages would, in the first in-
stance, reach only his luxuries. But with respect to one as
well as the other, he took it to be clear that taxation affected the
price of that which *as produced by their labour.—(Hear,
hear, hear!)_He feared that he might not be able to express
himself so distinctly as he wished—(Cheers.)—thr he knew
there were many members in the House possessing a deeper
knowledge in the science of political economy than he did.—
Assuming, however, that he had succeeded in shewing that
taxation was one cause of the present distress, he would submit
that the proper course to lessen it was to diminish taxation.—
He
conceived it would be wrong to endeavour to raise the price
•of produce ; and that the wiser plan would be to make great
retrenchments, and thus enable produCe to be raised at a smaller
expence.—(Hear, hear, hear I)—A surplus of five millions
over the expenditure ot; the present year was confidently - ex-
pected.
Ile thought it advisable that taxation to this amount
should be taken off. He admitted, that in general it would be 1
impntdentjo lower taxation, so as to niake it only meet the ex-'I
penditare with that of the
.year 1792. It had been said that
this was not a fair cornpat:son, because at that time Mr. Pitt
was reducing as much as possible. Ile (Lord A.) knew not
what air. Pitt's plans were at the time, but he was sure there
never was a time when reduction was so necessary as the pre-
sent. Ile was aware that the expenditure could not be brought
exactly tn the state of 1792, and he would make fair allowances
accordingly. The Army Estimates of that year amounted to
2,370,0001.; but the pay had been increased since that period,
so as to make a difference of about 72.1,0001. This with two
millions fOr half pay made something more. than five mil-
lions. The Estimate for the present year was 7,443,0001.
He was not prepared to say in detail how much this could be
reduced, but that was a question which might be discussed af-
terwards. He was satisfied, however, that if the House de-
prived Ministers of the revenue, there would be no doubt of
their finding the way of 'eduction. The Colonies he thought
might support their own forces, especially as it had been ar-
gued that they were generally looked to as increasing our
strength rather than our commerce. In the Navy Estimates
of the year 1792 and those of the present year there was a
difference of upwards of two millions. These he thought
should be reduced upon the same principle, that when Minis-
ters were compelled to reduce, they always fouls. the means.
The Dock-yards at Chatham, Portsmouth, and Plymouth,
were till tne establishments of that description which he
thought necessary. The money expended upon that-at. Shee-
rness, for instance, he thought was money thrown away. It
was originally constructed on account of the difficulty of get.
ting ships down the river, but that difficulty had been removed
by the invention of Steam Engines. The next department was
the Ordnance, in Which establishment, upon a comparison of
the year 1792, there was nn increase of 501,0001. after allow-
ing for the difference of pay. In the Civil List, upon the
same comparison, there was an increase of 5g1,9.171. If Mi-
nisters were disposed to reduce, he was satisfied upon this
statement they could.—(Hear, hear I)—Supposing them in-
clined to do so, the next question would be, whether the money
proposed to be applied by the Noble Marquis could not be
better disposed of. The only object proposed by the Noble
Marquis was to raise the price of the Funds. He (Lord A.)
was told by practical men, that it would have this efFec4;
otherwise he never could have believed that a sum compara-
tively so small, could have had any perceptible influence.
As the average transfer of three per cent. Stock last year was
1,200,0001. a-day, and as the suns proposed to be sent into the
market would in the yee! make but one-50th, he could scarcely
believe it was possible for such a proposition to produce
any visible effect, particularly as the Stocks rose while we
were borrowing on the Sinking Fund. He would, however,
admit that the effect would be to raise the price of the Funds.
The plan of' the Noble Marquis was to reduce taxes to the
amount of 1,500,0001. this year ; another million next year,
half a million in the next, and_ao on to five millions. But
would it not be better to reduce the five millions now, now
that agriculture was almost in a ante of ruin, and that every
day produced the downfal of sonic one engaged in agricultural
pursuits ? The question in fact was, whether some better mode
could not be adopted of disposing of these five millions ? He
objected to any artificial raising of the Funds, for they would
naturally rise with the prosperity of the country. These
five millions would be actively employed as capital, if they
were at this moment taken otf. In that he called upon the
House ea once to approve or disapprove of the plan of the
•Noble Marquis. If the House approved of it, it• would be
vain to move for any other reduction. He was aware that
1 1 there would be a technical objection to his motion ; because
there was no proposal of Ministers distinctly before the House,
but he trusted neither the Noble Marquis nor his Colleagues
would take advantage of this circumstance. Indeed, he should
be as content to lose his motion upon such an objection, as he
should be to gain • it, upon a discussion. The object of the
motion was to call upon the Country Gentlemen to say Aye or
I No : and to say whether or not the reduction of a shilling in
the bushel upon the malt tax would satisfy them.—(Cheers.)
He concluded by moving, " That it is the opinion of the House
that the reduction of taxation, propoged by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, is not sufficient to satisfy the just expectations of the
1 " peop e. .
Mr. ROBINSON said, that however premature and unfair
he might have thought some of the propositions of the Hon.
Gentleman opposite, he had no•such objection to the motion of
his Noble Friend, to whom he gave credit, - not only for his
motives, but for the manner in w‘hich he had broaght his mo-
tion forward. Nothing could be 1. as consistent than the con-
duct of Ministers, if they were to think of meeting the motion
by a technical objection. In fact, the question must be de-
cided upon its merits ; Ministers naked for the decision of the
House, and they even thanked his Noble Friend for having
brought forward a motion which would call for that decision.
In looking at the plan which had been submitted by Ministers,
and the plan of his Noble Friend, they were never to lose sight
of the circumstances under which the present question was
discussed. The question was not reduction, or no re-
duction ; but whether reduction should take place beyond the
surplus revenue, or whether the integrity of the surplus
should be maintained with a gradual and progressive reduction ?
This was the issue between him acid his Noble Friend. It
would be remembered, that this was the first time within nearly
forty years that the House was enabled to discuss the appropri-
ation of a surplus revenue.—The surplus itself was produced
by the reduction of expence and the improvement of revenue.
It was unnecessary to follow his Noble Friend through his de-
tails ; for they might be and probably were correct. But even
if his Noble Friend could satisfy the House that by increasing
the reduction they would increase the (surplus Revenue, that
would be an additional reason for raaintaining the integrity of
the Sunking Fund. He (Mr. R.) would always say, " Main-
tain the Sinking Fund, uphold public credit, and then reduce
if possible." But, in all events, the wiser course would be to
preserve the Sinking Fund. He agreed with his Noble Friend
that other and more convenient opportunities would occur for
discussing details ; and he could assure his Noble Friend and
the House, that Ministers proposed the Resolution in favour of
Retrenchment last Session with a full intentto act upon its spirit.
But when they looked at what was desirable in the way of reduc-
tion, they were not to overlook what was n ecessary for the safety
of the state. lie was perfectly aware that Goverarraent were here

open to an imputation from. those istici chose to make it but ii
could notbe denied that it was the duty of Government tntake
care that all the public establishments were efficient for their
purpose. The A'-my, as to numerical force, had been reduced-
to the lowest point consistent with safety ; and as to the reduc-
tion of the naval. arsenals, it would not be too much for Goversi-
meet to expect some :resit for their wish to preserve our na-
tional supremacy. If they had neglected the means necessary-
for that preservation, his Noble Friend would be the first to,
regret it ; for the state of the country would. be such as to bring
upon the memory of Ministers the deserved contempt of pos-
terity. His Noble Friend had said that the country was ruined_
The distress cf the agricultural interest he (MLR.) admitted :
he deeply regretted it ; but in looking at the situation of the
whole country, other interests mustbe examined as well as those
connected with agriculture. He was sure that' if those who,
wished to work upon the feelings of a partictaar 'class, instead
of addressing themselves to the. pressure of distress upon thst
one class, would look at every other, they would not be able in
justice to represent them as being in so deplotable a condition.
The excess in the revenue furnished a proof that the pressure
was not partial. Whenever an excess of tile same description had
been announced before, there had alwayS been plenty to spew that
the hopes built upon were a mere fallacth; that,it was but a spit
of the Monenit ; that the result would snow that it was all vain
speculation, and that it would end in disappointment. That,
however, was a kind of argument that had not been attempted in
the presentcasd; and those whiltookedat the improvement which
was every where exhibited wOula find that the expectations.
raised from it did not rest upon any such unsubstantial and san-
dy basis. The increase was found to be not in one, gilt in every
branch of industry. There was not one source of revenu-e to-
which the improvement did not apply. It was" iod only in the
consumption of the people of the country that the increase
was seen, but in the foreign trade also. That increase in cell-
stimption could not take place without a previous increase us
the meana of consumptioe-(llear, hear 1)-and how was it
possible to admit that to be the case without allowing a corre-
spondent increase in the comfort and case Of the people ?-
.(Spear hear !)-Ile adverted at the outset to their having 'a
surplus income over their expenditure, and the question was
not now whether they should reduce taxation, but rather in
what mode that reduction should be made. His Noble Friend
(Lord Althorpe) was not -to suppo.e that his .Majesty's Minis-
ters had not directed their attention in the first instance to the
nature and substance of the proposition he had brought for-
, ward that night for the reduction of five millions of taxes.-
Such - a proposition he knew • was very palatable, and if his.
Majesty's Government had desired to acquire popularity
even to the extent cf perpetuating their own power, they
could not have fixed upon a better expedient than coming
down to that House with such a proposal.-e(Hear, hear !)_
They admitted in the abstract the principle of reducing taxs
ation, and certainly did not mean to deny that the reduction
of five millions of taxes would be felt as a great advantage
to the nation. But it was questionable whether attempting.
relief in that way would not eventually leave greater evils
to be contended against than those it would be intended to
remedy. The reduction of the Sinking Fund, which was the
first step to the proposed measure, would, in his opinion, be an
unwise and fatal departure from the system which had been so
properly adopted and adhered to by this country.-(Hear !)-
He had scarcely ever heard any one, of whatever side in po-
litics, or whatever view he took of financial questions, object.
to the principle of a Sinking Fund in the abstract. lie could
understand the objection raised to the continuance of a system,
which should take away that with one hand which it should
restore with the other; but he certainly felt himself quite at a
loss to comprehend how the employment of an actual surplus
in the Revenue in the support of a Sinking Fund could be
objected to. His Noble riand opposite (Lord Althorpe), ad-
mitted that he was opposed in his opinion in this respect by
practical men connected with the public Funds, who under-
stood the management of their own interests. And indeed it
must be plain to all who were capable of appreciating the mat-
ter, that there was a beneficial effect in sued an application of
money, beyond the mere releasing of a certain mount of debt.
Thatlis Noble Friend should think otherwise couldnot appear
strange when coupled with the motion that a departure
from the system which had been so long acted upon, and to
which the Government stood pledged, would not leave the effect
of diminishing public credit. It appeared to him (Mr. Robin-
son) that no one step, that they could take would tend more to
scatter dismay and apprehension amongst all classes in any
way connected with, or affected by the public faith, than the
abolition of the Sinking Fund. Did he not view it, however,
in this way, he should still have a strong feeling of hostility
against such a step, as he could not but view it in the light
of the forerunner of a more desperate attack on the funds.-
(Cries of No !).-He would explain why lie thought so. They
had been told in plain terms that they were not to contribute
to a Sinking Fund, because they could not afford it. This
they were told was to be justified by that severe necessity, the
ultimum suppliciuin of tae Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Brougham): It was by this they might be driven to do that
which, said the Honourable and 'Learned Gentleman, in the
same breath, " God forbid I should recommenti."-(Laughter.)
Here then he should be able to explain his view of the case.-
The destruction of the Sinking Fund would affect public cre-
dit to that extent, that the relief intended to be given would
be rendered less efficacious, and then would grdw up that ne-
cessity which was to justify that desperate and fatal attack on
that species of property, of which; he had designated the des-
truction of the Sinking Fund as the forerunner. They all knew
that many people of this country looked with a jealous eye at tire
National Debt. They were taught, by pernicious doctrineas
widely disseminated, that the stockholder was a sort of hoard-
ing miser, who found his own thrift in being a canker on the
interests and prosperity of others. But what was the stock-
holder in reality ? Were there not. many whose all was cen-
tered in fended property, and how great a portion of it was
not the produce of the savings of laborious industry.-(llear 1)
He confessed that he for one had not that in his composition as
a Statesman, which could enable him to take advantage of the
Pretext of necessity to assent to a measure of such a natures-a
/Then he would beg the House to consider the two plans pro-
posed
for their adoption. That of his Noble Friend (Lord A.)
proceeded upon the assumption, that a reduction of taxation by
demolishing the Sinking Fund would not be productive of arty
evils to the country, through a diminution in public credit. it
certainly might be admitted, for the sake of argument, to be
problematical ; but he (Mr. Robinson) thought it would create
very many and magnitudinous evils. But the plan of his Mat.
jesty's Ministers was so far preferable that it combined 'two
principles of unqualified good-first, the creation of a clear
Sinking Fund ; and second, a reduction of taxation. There- •
fore, whilst his Noble Friend's proposal was not free front
doubt as to its operation, that of his Majesty's Government
possessed clear, unqualified good. He hoped, therefore, the•
House would not hesitate in their choice. His Majesty's Go-
vernment, he assured them, had no other view but to avail
themselves of the situation of the revenue to apply it to the re-
lief of the country in the most beneficial way. He was glad
his Noble Friend had given the House an opportunity of getting
the question at ;est -( Hear, hear !)-H e appealed to the II ouse
to support his Majesty's Ministers in maintaining the principle
of the Sinking Fund, with confidence, because they had done
nothing in the present instance to give cause fOr withdrawing
that confidence they had enjoyed fora series of years.-(.hccra
from the Opposition.)-lion. Members might laOgh, but it was
clear they -had possessed the confidence of the House, or they
would not have met with their support. But he'would also
fearlessly appeal to the people, because he believed the people
of this country to be the most just en earth.-(Hear, hear!)--
When they were in distress they naturally looked up to Parlia-
ment to provide them a refuge from the pressure of the mo-
ment, and they were equally apt to attribute to Government,
the origin of their distresses. God forbid he ahould blame theirs
harshly for so doing, as it was in human nature to do so. But
they were not unjust or Ungenerous, when the hour of adver-
sity had passed. They bore anger as the flint bore Ere-it
emitted a spark and straight was cold. It was became he felt
conscious that his Majesty's 31 inistel shad done what they ought
to do, in the situation they were placed in, that he felt assured
the people of England would do them justice as Parliament heel •
done.-(Cheers.)-For the reasons he had stated, he should
oppose the motion of his Noble Friend (Lord Althorpe), and
meet it by proposing two Resolutions as an Amendment. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then read the Resolutions, which were
in substance as follows :-

I st, " That it appears to this house that a net excess in the
Revenue above the Expenditure of the United Kingdom may
he estimated as likely to amount for the year ending sth Jan.
1823, to 5,260,0601. exceeding by 260,01)01. the amount of
clear surnlus Revenue, which, by the Resolution of the Btii
June, 1819, the Honse deemed it expedient to provide for
the reduction of the National Debt in the form of a Sinking
Fund.

2d, " That this House secs with satisfaction, that by the
operation of this surplus, connected with the diminution of
the Five per Cent. Stock, a diminution of taxation may be
accomplished, by wiiich a greater benefit to the country will
aecrue than was held out by the Resolution of 1819 in ques-
tion."

The first Resolution laving been put from the Chair, in the
shape of an amendment,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he was so far from agreeing
with the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just tat down, in the
opinion he had expressed, that a great reduction of taxation
would not be wise, that he thought such a measure was the only
one that could confer essential benefit on the country at this mo-
ment, and was the only one at all likely to appease the suffer-
ings of the people. The Right Hon. Gentleman, he thought,
might have spared that part of his Speech which related to the
Sinking Fund. Let the House only recollect how much they
had heard of the wonder-working effects of the Sinking Fund
of Mr. Pitt. It was but lately that tke shade of that States-
man had been invoked in support of it, and r)owit appeared they

tad far the first time any Sinking Fund whatever. That Fund, it
weared, depended entirely upon a surplus in the Revenue, and
• la surplus depended on an improvement in the Revenue, and
-40..e.t was still more hazardous, on the economy of his Majesty's
t ;Ministers. All thegolden prospects of Mr. Pitt; as to- the °pe-
.
'itation of this FUnd, it. now appeared were a -delusion, and
instead of being of any use, it had, upon. calculation, been an
additional expense to, the nation to the amount of thirty mil-
' The Sinking. Fund, if allowed to go on at compound
. itiktemst, he believed might do something towards the. extinc-
▪ den of the debt, but Ministers never would permit it to remain
• t rest. He was surprised to hear the resolutioh of 1819 quoted
;by the Right Hon. Gentleman-,a resolution amounting to a
',solemn pledge to hold this fund inviolable. • The creditor surely
s.euld not place much reliance on the faith of that H ouse, when
they found it so voted in 1819, and it was net in operation be-
f0re.1322. But if they were ready to preserve inviolate the pubs
lie faith, as had been said, it might be as well to look how the
-(lnucellor of the Exchequer had kept-his faith with that part
of the public concerned in land. He referfed the House' to
the Resolutions passed in 1811, declaring that the pound note
ado, considered as equivalent to twenty shillings, and that
there was no depreciation in the value of gold. It would
he weer, therefore, that persons connected with the landed
interests, on the faith of these Resolutions, expected that
whist -peace came they should find the pound note of as much
value as it had been duiing the war. Without saying any
thing more as to the effect of t".O Sinking Fund, he would
advert to the. expences of the nation at the period of 1793, and
at the present time. He did not mean to say that they ought
:4 bee; an exact comparison to each other, but the one being
artiine of war, and this being a time of- peace, they ought to
bear some proportion to each other. In 1798, the Civil List
aniounted to 898,0001. ; in 1821, 1,057,0001. In the same year
the pension list amounted to 134,0001.; 1821, it was 434,0001.
•Tha salaries for the former period were 25,0001.; for the latter
72,001. The whole amount of the Civil List, and other per-
=anent charges, for 170, was 1,111,0001. For the present
yaite, the amount was 2,043,0001. nearly double. - He admitted
tha: the cost of Ireland was in the last, and not in the first; but
there were many expences obviously unnecessary, which at the
present time might well be spared. The regulation to which
he had adverted in an early part of the evening relative to the
Spaoish. Government might be a very useful one; if applied as
extensively as it fairly might be. With the exception of
France, he thought there was no Court at which it was neces-
sary to have Ambassadors. Envoys or Ministers Plenipoten-.
tsar; would be quite sufficient and' less expensive. With re-
gard to the question as to whether a reduction of taxes would
carry with it any relief to the people, he was at a loss to un-
derstand how there could be any difference of opinion. His
view of the•causes of the distresses of the country might -be
summed up in very. few words. • Owing to causes which,
however erroneous, it was not necessary to investigate, the
produce of land did not obtain remunerating prices; and
the only way to remedy that was by reducing the supply
to a• level with the demand, and by a reduction of taxes.
The supply would of course become limited to the.extent
of the market in • time, but before that `came about thou-
sands and thousands would be ruined. A great quantity of
mpital would be lost, and above all, circumstances of the most
aCieting nature would take place. The farmer would first
begin to reduce the quantity of labour—the labourers would
then suffer from want of employment, whilst . the farmer
became more and more distressed till he. would at length be
worn down by evils lie dared not face, to the situation of a
pauper, who must go to the parish for support. This had
already been the case in several parts of the country, and
many rich farmers had been -reduced to the state of parish
paupers. Although this was owing to natural causes, yet
they ought to lose no opportunity of alleviating the tempo-
rary pressure of distress. This might be done by the se-
duction of taxes, which would enable him to enjoy some
of the profits of his farm. It was of no use to say that taxa-
tion was not the cause of his distress, and therefore could not
relieve it. If, when the horses of a carriage were down, some
wise philosopher were to address those . who were busy in
taking off the harness, in terms of reprobation for their folly,
saying it was not the harness that caused the horses to fall,
trot the stone in the road, he believed he would not be minded,
but that these whom he addressed would continue to take off
the harness to enable the horses to get up the sooner.—(Hear !)
--The effects of the measure which went by the name of Mr.
Peel's Bill, had effected a great change in the currency, which
must long continue to be felt. The measures which had been
passed, tending to depreciate the currency, were fraught
with as much misery, and as extensive ruin, as foreign in-
vasion, the visitation of a pestilence, famine, or any of those
evils which we were in the habit of praying might be avert-
ed from us.—(Hear, hear !)—He hoped no 41inister would'
be found for the future capable of making another such at-
tetnotn Ile was disposed to laugh at Ministers taking credit
to themselves for the improvements that had taken-place
in some of the interests of the community. .Every discovery,
oven that of a cotton-spinner at Manchester, must 'be made
to confer honour on them. If they found for three years, the
Manufacturers in that condition that they actually carried star-
vation in their faces, and misery and suffering in their appear-
ance, was it because it was shifted next year to the farmer that
the wisdom of Government was to be lauded ? However it
might chew the incredible power of the country to overcome dif-
fieultiea, if any thing, blame belonged to the Government.-
-With this view of the subject he certainly should give every
stopost to the motion of his, Noble Friend.
Mr. WHITMORE said, it would be for the general interest
to reduce as far as might be practicable the immense load of
diebts under which the nation was suffering. o If he could agree
With the Noble Lord's Resolution, he should think the country
was reduced to that melancholy situation that-it would be ne-
ceSsary to carry their proceedings still farther, and then he was
afraid-they would be in the situation of being obliged to enter
into a commutation. with the pubic creditor. Even since he had
dicaotl that taxation was the cause of the distress he had troubled
hirs“elf to come to the rationale of that proposition. He could
weir Onderstand that it might . be the cause of high prices, but
how: it could be the cause of low prices he could not so readily
comprehend.-(Hear!)—He could certainly understand that if
the. country was ruined, if the profits of capital were.so dimin-
ished in consequence of the high rate of taxation that capital
was driven Out of the country, and population decreased, low
prices might ensue, but there was no other possible way that
excessive taxation could produce low prices. He thought that
the Hon. Member for- Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo) had sufli-
ciently•accounted for the low prices by a reference to the state
currency-. Ile (Mr. W;) conceived that a considerable portion
of the distress arose from a re-action produced by the stimu-
Lot
.given durinriethe war to agriculture. -During, that period
cultivation had increased greatly • it was well known that pre-
miums were offered for the best cultivated farm. The object was
to stimulate agriculture to the greatest degree it could attain to,
and therefore it was that non- the supply was greater than the
demand. The years 1320, and 1821, were extremely productive
years, and as there was no other market than our own, more was
produced than was required for, the consumption of the country,
which fell back upon the markets ; and thus that state was
produced under which the country was now labouring.—
(Hear !)—Flo could in this way well understand how the low
prier...s were produced. But the fact was, they must recede to
the state of things they had left: Ile did not believe, as the
Hon. and Learnnl Gentleman below him (Mr. Brougham) had
said, that the ifoorer lands would be thrown out of cultivation ;
but the last layer of capital must be taken off. the land. The •
high cultivation of the land had brought in a different system
of cultivation altogether. • With regard to the poor lands, a
great deal had been brought into cultivation long' antecedent to
the war. He believed that a great deal of that land would be
thrown, out of cultivation, which had been brought in upon ,
the rise from 80s. to 120 s. in the quarter of wheat. He thought
that when cultivation shall have retrograded to the point where
it will remain, wheat will be about fiSs. the quarter; and he,
thought it would be the duty of the Agricultural Committee •
to investigate that point He must•say that he thought it was
the duty of landed proprietors to lower their rents. -lie spoke
as. a landhalder, of poor land too, with the usual incum-
braneeS, and it was- his duty to say that his property was
considerably ameliorated at the present period as compared
with 1792.—(Cheers.)—It was ameliorated. by enclosures, by
capital which had been laid out upon it, and by high prices.—
(Cheers,j—When he reflected on all the advantages which
this country possessed, and none of-the least, the security of
property, he eonfeised he could not take so gloomy a view of
their state as some persons indulged in.—(Hear, hear !) -
T here was an elasticity and energy in the country which would
enable it to resist, and finally shake off, the pressure which now
bore upon ito-s-(Hear, hear !)—Notwithstanding the blackness
of the clouds which surrounded her, there was yet a tinge of
sunshine on-the horizon which-he looked to as the harbinger of
a briteoter day. When be looked to the •East Indies, to the
pastern ArChipelage, and to the golden Prospeet Which. the in-
dependence of the South Americans opened to vie*, he-could
not aft down with thosegloomy apprehensions which Oppressed
ethers.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. PRICE declared his entire. concurrence with the Noble
Lord (Lord Althorpe.), whose resolution was Wore the Hotise.
The diminution of taxation was not a ground on which they
were to-tread with timid• step::: 'The House should insist upon
tti e.bolitiOn of every useless place, and a thorough economy,
and they should look at the assurance that there would be no
More rel:let-ions with-distrust; Last year the same was said,
but the openitY!i.f.tliis.:Session brought a different story. Those
who. were.•loerkeitent- ih the funds should do all they could to
clirelnie3.e.-thfo'! TrOtd:ll3 of the country. He could not help
ageetriesetOioli the Hon. Meinber who just sat down, in-the
latter part of his speech.. From the improvement which had
takih place In martufactures, commerce, and even' agriculture,
he could not but entertain. hopes of a general •restoration-. • But
at the present moment of distress they were bound to use every
means in their power to lighten. the burdens'; and upon 'that

ground it was that he consented to an abandonment of the
Sinking Fund. This would give temporary relief, but he by
no means meant to say that it should not at a future time be
renewed.

Mr. WILMOT assured the House, that as the question had
been so frequently debated, he would himself to the ar-
guments which had been urged that evening, and to which he
would advert as shortly as possible. And first he would apply
himself to the removal of two erroneous statements which had
been made in the course of the debate. First, the Noble Lord
and the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken, said that his
Majesty's Ministers attributed the improved condition of the
manufactures of the country to their own measures. ' Such an
assertion had never been made. Secondly, the Honourable
Gentleman who spoke last said, that • Government declared
last Session, that no further. reduction of expenditure could
be accomplished. This, too, he positively denied. All
that they said was, that the reduction had at that time been
carried as far as was consistent with the interests of the coun-
try. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down,
recommended the appropriation of the Sinking Fund to
the current expences of the year. Whatever difference of opi-
nion might exist on other subjects, he trusted that there
were very few Members of that House disposed to deny that
the maintenance of the Sinking Fund, and of the consequent
public credit, was.consonant to the true interests of the coun-
try. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the Civil List, and
to Pensions. 'Now the fact was, that the Crown granted no
huger sum in, pensions at the present moment than in 1782.—
And with regard to the Civil List, many of the charges on it
were the result - of Parliamentary grants during the last war,
and could not be repealed without a gross breach of national
faith. It was asserted by the Honourable Gentleman, that the
people deliberately looked for the . abolition of the Sinking
Fund as one means of relieving their distress. And why ? Be-
cause they had been taught, by men on whom they ought to
place no reliance, that the whole of the agricultural distress
was the result oetaxation. But when the debates of that House
came to spread- among the people, and they should find it
the opinion of the best informed persons that taxation, though
certainly an evil of great magnitude, was not the cause of our
distress ; and that nothing but the most absolute necessity
could justify a violation of faith with the public creditor, he
had no doubt their sentiments would materially change. On
' the subject of the Sinking Fund he had heard the opinion
of Dr. Hamilton misquoted ; and to prove this he would read
a passage from Dr. Hamilton's, works—[H ere the Honourable
Gentleman rend the passage in ceuestion, the tendency of which
was, to shew that the only real Snaking Fund was the surplus of
the income over the expenditure.] —al e (Mr.W.) was firmly con-
vinced that eventually the country at large would be much more
effectually relieved by the operation of the Sinking Fund than by
any remission of taxation. An immediate remission of taxation
would be beneficial to the agricultural portion of the country
alone, while every other part of it would proportionably suffer.
For his own part he looked for relief only to a cessation of that
violent re-action resulting from the extreme exertion duringthe
late war in support of the national credit, and defence of the
national honour, by which our system had been for a time dis-
located. He looked with confidence to the event, Miming, as
he did, the opinions of the Honourable Member for Porter-
lington and others, who contended that the people of this
country would speedily emerge from that condition which was
the consequence of their ' over-strained exertion. He was con-
vinced that we possessed the elements of prosperity in all the
branches of our Agriculture, Commerce, and Manufactures ;
and that the energies of the country would be soon liberated, and
manifest themselves in every direction. If, however; at the pre-
sent moment, Parliament had not the firmness to apply our re-
sources in the mode recommended by his Noble Friend, if they 'I
refused to secure a gradual diminution of the debt,aand aban-
doned themselves to the despondency which some of the Hiinour-
able Members on the other side of the House seemed so desirotis
to inculcate, the fate of the country would theft indeedbe hope-
less. But of such . an event he had no apprehension. He
wished to say a few words on the subject of the change in the
value of our currency. It had been argued that the country
was entitled to claim a remission of taxation, in consequence of
that change. But the certainty of fiuch a change was as well
known before 1819 as now ; and, under these circumstances,
the solemn sanction of the House was given to the public cre-
ditor. With the general view which he entertained of the pub-
lic resources, founded on the maintainance of public credit by
the plan unfolded to the House by his Noble Friend—with the
multiplied energies which the country possessed; it appeared to
him that there was every prospect of our reaching a skate of
greater and sounder prosperity than any to which we had
hitherto attained. There was much on which they had already
to congratulate themselves'; and all that they had yet to do,
was to persevere in the course which a sense of justice and.
honour prescribed. - • .
l Mr. WILSON noticed; generally, the several causes of dis-
' tress which had been mentioned, and considered the evil com-
plained of to lee produced- by their combined operation. The
plan of Ministers did not seem perfectly to satisfy the House, but
at the same time it was difficult to say what more could be done.
i He had no doubt but the 4,003,0001. proposed to be advanced
I would do good, but he would suggest that of this suns 1,500,0001.
should be reserved for an-other purpose. vv hat he would suggest
I was this, that taking the present average price of wheat to be 495.
the quarter,the 1,500,0001. should be raised to buy it at thatprice,
and to continue purchasing till the average rose to 555. This
might be done by individuals, assisted by the proposed loan, but
if done by individuals there Would be a danger of its being again
thrown on.the market the moment there was a fluctuation of a
I few shillings in the prices. He would recommend that the
corn thus purchased by the agents of Government should re-
main stored up till the price reached 695. or 655., or such a
price as would admit its beii'g brought to market without doing
injury or exciting alarm. This plan would, he thought, afford
great relief to the agricultural interests; and even supposing a
quarter or half the grain purchased to be lost, he still knew of
no way in which half a million, or a million of money could be
made to go so far. Such a plan would regulate the corn trade,
so that a valuable supply would always be at hand when a
scarcity made this desirable, and the farmer, under its operation,
would at once be relieved from his. surplus produce, which
would not come into the market till such a change • had taken
place as afforded the corn grower the prospect of a fair remune-
ration for his industry.
Mr. 13aNxEs, sen., and Sir R. HERON' rose together, but
Mr.BANKES, sen. having first caught the SPEAKER'S eye,
proceeded. Though he was aware that the subject to which
the Honourable Member who had 'just sat down was not alto-
gether relevatit to the debate, lie could not help thanking him
for having mentioned to the House that mode of relief which
several of his (Mr.l3's.)friends knew that he conceived to be best
aclanted to the 'distress of the country. There could be no doubt
of the general proposition, that a diminution of taxation would
afford some relief; but Gentlemen, when they stated such a
fact, should not forget the relative operation of taxation; its de-
crease, while it relieved one clasw, might materially injure anoe
ther, and there lay the fallacy of their argument. No man
could seriously contend for the flagrant dishonesty of raising one
class of society at the expence of anotheraa,(Hear.)—With re- ,
gard to the case put, of the Gentleman who had a mortgage '
of 12,0001. on an : estate worth at the time 20,0001., and, who,
it was said, claimed from the Chancellor of the Exchequer an
indemnity for the loss he 'had sustained, on account of the
.fluctuation in the value of money, which he ascribed to the
Right Honourable Gentleman's financial projects, and made
the claim upon as valid a right as the fundholder could assert
for his indemnity, the plain answer to such a claim was, that
the public had entered into no engagement with the land-
holder, but they had with the fundholder : from the one
they had borrowed' on the security of the,public faith, and
they had not from the other,- a circumstance which made the
whole difference between the two cases. Was 'it not a con-
dition of every loan contracted by the country, that a cer-
tain sum over and above the payment of the specific interest
should be regularly set aside to create an ultimate capital for
the discharge of the principal ? Would it not then be a flagrant
breach of the public faith, to say at once that the country must
depart from the principle on which' it had, ever since 1792, bor-
rowed the money? Were they prepared to act in such a manner
towards the public creditor, and to abandon in a time of peace the
project of'securing a Sinking Fund ? If they once relinquished
the principle (if.; maintaining that fund, under what probable
circumstances did they imagine they could resume it, . if here-
after, in other circumstances, they should deem it advisable
to alter their opinion ?e-(Hear l)—Some Gentlemen, he was
aware, thought the principle of the Sinking Fund a fallacy ;
but he, who thought it no fallacy, was not- prepared to .give
up a system which he thought would ultimately prove advan-
tageous to the country. Whatever relief' could be.given by
reducing any portion of taxation which the country could
spare, he was ready to concede, and to the degree proposed
by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Londonderry). Small as
it was, he was ready to assent ; it would, he believed, tend
to the alleviation of the burdens ,of a part of the community.
' The expenditure of the country ought, no doubt, to be reduced
to the lowest scale compatible with its security ; but when
the amount of 1792 was talked of, it ought to be remembered
that the' present establishments were required for Colonies
not then under the government of Great Britain ; and,
I therefore, that a larger force was now indispensable than
would have been required in the previous situation of the
country.—(lfear.)The more he thought of the project of alter-
ing the place of the Sinking Fund, the more lie was convinced
of the inexpediency of the alteration, and that it would be most
impolitic to suspend the operation of that fund now, upon
the understanding that it should be hereafter revived under more
favourable circumstances. 'Unless he saw an alteration in the
disposition of that HOUse, and in that Of the people (which he
trusted he never should see), he for one should never listen to
such a proposition.' 'Who would, in time of .war, have lent their
money, if they.antiCipated, on the return of peace, a departure, on
the part of the borrower, from-the terms of the contract ? Be-

*sides they should always recollect that the parties to he affected
by the alteration were not likely to be the original stockholders,
who bought upon cheap terms, but others of a different class,
who paid full price, relying on the validity of the public
faith. If the Government were once to act on so loose a prin-
ciple, they would, in the unfortunate recurrence of any future
war, find it very difficult to borrow money for the public service
upon the same terms as those on which they had obtained it on
former occasions.— (Hear I)
Mr. TIERNEY, but for the speech of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down, would have left the House
most reluctantly that night, after giving a silent vote. He
anticipated a Violent attack for what he was about to say.
After what had been said on the subject of what had fallen
from his Noble Friend, he had certainly little reason to ex-
pect to escape when he should hare expressed his sentiments
on the Sinking Fund. He commented on the support Minis-
ters received on this occasion from the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, who had been looked up to as the very Nestor of inde-
pendence, and he thought another Right Hon. Gentleman
who had stood forth as the champion of the present Admi-
nisrration would hare acted a fairer part if he had met the
motion of his Noble Friend with _a negative, instead of pro-
posing other resolutions. Ile expressed surprise at the con-
duct pursued by the Noble Marquis on a former night. He
having opened the plan of Ministers, had not submitted to
them any resolutions founded thereon, but had finished by
moving for the production of papers to which no human
being could object. It had been said the plan of Ministers
was now brought before them. But he saw in the Amend-
ment nothing about the 4,000,0001. proposed to be advanced
in aid of the landed interest. He hoped that part of the plan
had been re-considered. Having calmly and dispassionately
reviewed this subject; he had now to avow, in the face of the
House, that he had conic to a conclusion different from that
at which be had formerly arrived. He saw no reason why
this subject should not he dispassionately considered. If he
were at once to be assailed with
,the charge that he was pre-
pared to ruin the country by violating public credit, if such an
outcry were to be raised, why then it was in rain for him
to deliver his sentiments on the subject. But thus making
known the impression on his mind, he was confident that
the House would give him credit for manliness at least,
and he hoped they would acquit him of any thing un-
fair. He did not think the question on the Sinking Fund
was distinctly undCrstood, but they would give him leave
' to say the day-was not very. distant when that subject must
come before the House, fur, as the Noble Marquis proposed
to employ the simple interest of the Sinking Fund of
5,000,0001, oniy,And nat the compound interest, in reducing
the debt, it would be necessary for him to come to Parliament
to inure the repeal of Certain provisions, connected with the'
Sinking Fund. Either he nyist do that, or he'niust abandon
his plan for giving the public that small remission of taxes
which it was now proposed to afford. The Sinking Fond at
present, he would speak in round numbers, as the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer would not fall out with him for half
a million—the Sinking Fund at present amounted to
17,000,0001. From this 17,000,0001. the sum of 12,000,0001.
was annually taken for the service of the country, and this
left 5,000.0001. for a Sinking Fund, to which amount it was
now said they had a surplus over the yearly expenditure. It
was true, that under the original Act the Commissioners 'for
the Redemption of the National Debt were authorised to ad-
vance a portion of the sums appropriated to that purpose in
the shape of a loan for the current service of the year. But
no man had ever supposed that in time of peace such large
sums would he taken from the Sinking Fund under the name
of a loan as should deprive it of all efficient operation. He
was glad to hear it argued that there was no abandonment of
the Sinking Fund intended ; but fur all this, there was no
prospect ofits being- exonerated from the charge of 12,000,0001.
claimed-anonally fur the public-service. Could any thing be
more absurd than this practice ; this keeping lip the name of
a Sinking Fund, while it was takeu away in the shape of a
loan by the complicated machinery of borrowing, and attend-
ed with expense into the bargain ? He believed the attendant
expense was 19,0001.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, such an expellee
was not incurred by the operation alluded to by the /tight
Hon. Gentleman. •
Mr. TIERNEY resumed—He would not then insist on that
point ; but the complicated Machinery resorted to was per-
feCtly unnecessary, and it could only be used to create an
impresson that we had a sinking fund of 17,000,0001• when
every one knew that at the utmost we had but a-clear sinking.
fund of 5;000,0001. He would now call the attention of the
House to what had been done with the Sinking Fund in the
last twenty years. He would pass over what was done in
1802, and come to 1813, when the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer of the present day did,- as he (Mr. Tierney) thought,
lay most violent hands on the Sinking Fund. The reasoning
on which the Right Hon. Gentleman did this was not ex-
actly of a piece with his reasoning on the present occasion.
•Then, he contended that the ton rapid iticrease of the Sink-
ing Fund might occasion great public inconvenience. Now
his argument was, that if it were not suffered to increase,
the consequence must he an aggravation Of public distress.
He did not state in 18i3 (for, oddly enough, it happened
that the war added to the means of the country), he did not
then state-that it would be inconvenient to impose further
burdens on the public, but he maintained that it was neces-•
nary to interfere with the Sinking Fund on account of its
alarmingly rapid increase. A night Hon. Gentleman, whom
he .was happy to-see in his place (Mr .tanning), would, re-
member this, for he had described the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to act as if he were afraid " that the nation would
wake,some morning, and have the affliction to find that it
had no longer a debt to its back."---(A langh.)—That Right
Hon. Gentleman might be easy now, and feel the nation was
exposed to no such peril, for by tht measure then brought
forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the roor Sink-
ing Fund had been robbed of no less. than 7,000,0001. Now
it was said, that if they touched the Sinking Fund the public-
creditor would be alarmed. But what said this champion
for public credit then ? Why, then he told the stockholder,
bringing- forward his calculations, " that plan may take
something. from you in the next teh years, but in the
to years that will follow you shall have such days
! as von have never seen in your lives." Well, now
:.the ten.
years
were-nearly expired, and the compound interest
10)10 was so much for the public creditor, was now taken
away-Irons him, and the promise held out 41.1813 was gone
altogether. Such being the state of the case, would it be
said that he (Mr. Tierney,) doing as he should now do, turn-
ed his back on the Sinking-Fund ? No, it was not he that
acted strch a part by it, but it was the Chancellor of- the Ex-
cheqper himself. :At the period to which he alluded, he re-
membered the Right Hon. Gentleman had voted against the
motion which he (Mr. Tierney) had made; that the Attorney
and Solicitor? General, and the best Law Authorities be ton-
suited, and directed to report, whether or not the Right Hon.
Gentleman could act as he thus proposed to do, without be-
ing guilty of an infraction of the law as it then stood. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had shrunk from this. He, how-
ever. touched the Sinking Fund, and was thus guilty of a
breach of good faith towards the public creditor. He had
thought the Sinking Fund of great importance, and had al-
ways given credit to Mr. Pitt for projecting it. But that
Eightl,o
0 :oHun.o Iproposed to get a Sinking Fund
ut new taxes, but by saving so
00.,Gentleman0 not
by imposing
much of surplus revenue. He had thought the project of
Mr. Pitt one that redounded infinitely to his credit, though
pedlars that suggested by Dr. Franklin might have been bet-
ter. It wits then proposed, that with ail future loans a Sink-
ing Fund should be provided of one per cent. Lord Thur.
low opposed this in the other House; and in consequence
of that a great accident happened to him, for he was pre-
sently turned out of the office of Lord Chancellor. Where;
he begged to ask, had the Sinking Fund been in late years ?
Where was it. in 1817„1818,,1819, and 1821, and where would
it have been in 1822, hut for the reduction, which had for-
ced it on the Government. An idea was taken up, that the
increasing prosperity of the country had given us this Sinking
Fund of five Millions sterling. This was not so. In the way
supposed we had got but 2,600,0001. sterling. The rest was
'given by reductions. But why were not these reductions made
three years ago, be should like to know? Then 6,000,0001.
might-by this time have been semi to the country, with a re-
duction of taxes besides.
~It was not the improvement in the.
revenue which gave the Sinking Fund. The increase of last
year was hut'about 1,000,0001. the rest was made up front other
quarters. He contended that he had now a right to consider
bow the 5,000,0001. which had thus been gained had better be
disposed of. The Noble Marquis had assumed, that if his plan
were adopted, in the next six years 891,000,0001. *tight be
taken front the debt. He would suppose 40,000,0001. to be
extinguished. The reduction of :40,000,0001. would relieve
the country from 1,200,0001. in interest in the six years; and
then after thirteen years of peace—a period beyond the are-
rage extent of any peace in late times, we should probably
have to enter on a new war, with our debt reduced to .what
might perhaps he considered the moderate sum of 760,000,0001.
But it should be remembered that, to obtain this,. new taxes
to the annual amount of 3,200,0001. had been imposed.
But then he was said nut to attach sufficient importance to
the proposed reduction of the 5 per cents. But this had been
talked of in 1818, and they were told that stocks were rising,
the interest on money falling so that the nation would soon
lie more prosperous than ever, This they were told in 1818,
and the neat year the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to
! Parliament for 3,000,0001. in new taxes. He agreed with the
Honourable Member for Portarlington, that to raise the
funds by artificial means would not eventually benefit the
country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might run up
the price of stock, but this would not terminate the nation's
difficulties. He knew, if the Sinking Fund were taken away
that nights the meeting to take place to-morrow.,-qhe sup-
• posed from the numbers invited to meet the Right Hon.

' Gentleman, that it must take place in Palace-yard, and did
know how far a late Act would apply to it)—(a laugh)—but
he knew in the case supposed, that meeting might be of little
importance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had always
applied himself to raise the price of stock, and he had fan-
cied' that when he had any thing to say on that subject, he
turned his head towards a Gentleman not exactly a Member
of that House, as if deterniined that it should go forth to the
world. On subjects of this kind the Right Hon. Gentleman
did not send for the Hon. Members for York and Suffolk to
consult with them what should be done for the public good.
In such cases, he invited a few Bank Directors, or one or two
distinguished Gentlemen of a different religion—(a laugh)—
and being surrounded by such advisers, who bad commonly
an eye to self-interest, his object was commonly gained, and
they took care to get up the Stocks for their own advantage.
This was what the Chancellor of the Exchequer. desired, for
it enabled him to make such speeches es be liked to make,
about the flourishing state of the country. He (Mr. Tierney)
would say this mode of raising the Stocks was productive of
no real benefit to the country. It was his opinion, that by
thus advancing the funds, millions had been sent out of
the country by those who, considering that they had a
right to do so, would not place their money where the
rate of interest was so low as it was made in England,
but sought the best interest they could get elsewhere.—
Some might be deceived from the rise in the funds into
a belief that the prosperity of the country was rapidly
increasing, but let those Gentlemen who took up this idea
beware how they acted on it in Sorrowing money, lest'when
the wheel went round they might experience a result very
different from that which they might at present anticipate.—
All this he understood was said to be for the advantage of the
landed interest. Now he wished that lauded gentlemen would
look well into it, for it was utterly past his understanding
how it could be so. 'lf they inquired into the state of the coon
try they would find that the proposed plans were totally use-
less. If they asked whether there was any difficulty in pro-
curing money, they would be told by every country banker
that money was going a begging. It was not money that was
wanted, it was security. Unless such means were adopted as
would afford security, it was impossible to relieve the distress.
If he addressed the country gentlemen as the representatives
of the different parts of the nation, he would ask them, what
report they would have to make to their constituents when
they returned amongst them,if nothing more were done than
Ministers had proposed. They could only say to them -
4 " Oh, we found the Stockholders in full force ; we never saw
them in better spirits than when we left London; and we have
got you a shilling a quarter reduced upon the malt tax."—(A
laugh.)—lf this was all they meant to do, in God's name let
the country gentlemen moire no more clamour about their dis-
tress.—(Hear, hear'.)--Let them have no more county meet-
ings to talk of what they meant to do, and to clamour about
the ruined state of the conntry. For it now appeared that they
considered this. distressed arm overwhelmed country to have
been within one shilling of being the happiest in the world'.-1
(Cheers and laughter.)—lt was suggested that the Sinking
Fund should be taken is aid of the general means of the State,
to relieve it from pressing difficulties, and this proposition IMil
been distorted, as if it meant to leave the Treasury bare,
and to ,ret the public creditor shift for himself without secu-
rity. If there was any one more than another in that
House who wished fur the strongest security and safety for
the public creditor, it was himself. And he thought it ex-
ceedingly hard that his Hon. and Learned Friend had been
charged with contrary sentiments, for, merely stating a pos•
bible case which must obtain if a particular plan or system
were not abandoned. In consequence be had been imme-
diately charged with throwing out dark hints upon dangerous
topics. " Oh," it was said, " you see what they are about,
and what their plans will lead to." Nothing could be more
unwarranted than such charges; and he was sure that nothing
passed in the mind of his Hon. and Learned Friend which
would not bear the light, or which he would at all be dis-
posed to conceal. His firm opinion was, that more good
would be done by its application to a partial reduction of
taxation, than to the redemption of debt. The arguments
upon the other side as to the effect to be produced by the re-
duction of the Five per Cents. were built upon the assump-
tion that that measure was effected. And although the Right
Hon. Gentleman had come within a day of the meeting at
which the proposals for that plan were to be discussed, he
should bear in mind, that however well his schemes may be
laid, some of the persons with whom he had to deal, to use a
homely phrase, might be " Yorkshire too."—(A laugh.)—lf
they would not agree to terms, it would he necessary to have
the money prepared.---(Hear! from the Marquis of Londop-
derry.)—Well, supposing the money was prepared, and it was
a good deal of money too to be prepared with—(A laugh)—
but supposing that it was ready, it would he much better
applied in reducing the taxes as far as it wouid go. It was
curious to hear the Government always talking about the ne-
cessity of upholding the public credit, when, he believed,
that upon the arrival of every quarter-day for several years
past; they were obliged to borrow money of the Bank
to meet the demands of the public creditor. Neither the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor any other person, could be-
lieve that five million of taxes being taken off would leave five
millions deficient in the revenue. Every body must know
that other taxes would become more produCtive in conse-
quence of such reduction. The difference betwixt the Noble
'Lord and himself was, that the Noble Lord would give pre-
sent hope and distant relief, whilst Se wished to have present
relief and distant hope. He 'would say, that if five millions
of taxes were taken off, to borrow some expressions from the
Noble Lord, that wripld fructify and vivify more to thecountry
than all the projects which he had brought before the House.
Considerable savings were expected further to be made; and
if those savings were put to the increased revenues, a suffi-
cient security would thereby be formed to support the public
credit. He begged the House to consider that he had not
taken a hasty view upon this important topic, but had duly
weighed all the reasons which operated on his mind before he
could persuade himself to touch the Sinking Fund. In his
conscience he thought they ought not to hold out distant and
visionary hopes, but to give solid relief to the distressed classes
of the State. He hoped the House would not think that there
was any thing alarming in the proposition of his Noble Friend.
It pledged them to nothing. It would be for them, after con-
senting to the proposition, to consider what amount might be
taken from the Sinking Fund with safety and advantage, He
must remark that the Administration were taking the most ef-
fectual way to create indifference about retrenchment out of
doors, when they announced that all retrenchment and reduc-
tion were to go to the aid ofthe Sinking Fund. The fundholder
had no right to those reductions. The country ought to bene-
fit by them, for it was to relieie the country that. those reduc-
tions had'been enforced. With regard to the prosperity of the
country, he believed that the sources of its prosperity were
revigorated and flourishing. He believed that to be the case,
and he agreed with those who stated, that when all the other
interests prospered, one would not eventually remain in a
state of depression. He did believe that there was a growing
spirit and energy in the resources of the, country, and that
being the case, where could be the injury to public credit of
waiting another year and leaving things to their natural
course, before these financial . operations were effected ?
The Right Hon. Gentleman here thanked the House for the
attention with which they had listened to . him, and con-
cluded by stating that if he should be subjected to animad-
version for any change in his opinions, he had at least the
satisfaction of knowing that he had so changed his opinions
conscientiously, and after the most mature deliberation.—
(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER addressed the
House, but froM the inaudible tone of voice in which the
Right Honourable Gentleman spoke, and from frequent
noises which took place in the House, it was only possible to
collect his sentiments. at. intervals. He was understood to
commence by admitting that the Sinking Fund, as it came
from the hands of its great founder and promoter, had been
reduced to a comparatively small standard. But if Mr. i
Pitt's plan had confirmed in operation, it must be recol-
lected that seventeen millions of taxes more than those
now imposed upon the country must have been borne for
its support. That plan would undoubtedly have enabled
the country to ;rake great financial operations, and great re-
ductions of debt ; but all those advantages must have been
accompanied by the additional seventeen millions of taxes.—
If there was any argument in what Hon. Gentlemen opposite
asserted, namely, that the bnrthens of the country were even
now intolerable, what must have been its state if the Proper-
ty-Tax, and all the war-taxes, had continued in full opera-
tion ? True it was that only a small portion of the Sinking
Fund remained available to its original purpose,—true it was
that out of seventeen millions, only five could now he applied
to the extinction of debt; but it was equally true that the
country had avoided the necessary exactions for keeping up
the larger amount. He by no means dissented from the opi•
nion, that when the time came at which the expenditure of
the year should be fixed from the Estimates, it might become
advisable to revise the system of the Sinking Fund, so as to
regulate its stricter appropriation. But such a course must re-
quire many Acts of Parliament, and great alteration in the
public accounts; it was therefore a measure not to be under-
taken rashly or inconsiderately. He then stated that the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney) was erroneous in
his statement with regard to the original condition of the
Sinking Fund. Here the Right Hon. Gentleman went into
an argument, in which he was frequently inaudible, to spew
that the Sinking Furid, when first established, was only to
have accumulated by compound interest, until it had realized
the amount of four millions; and that its subsequent accu •
mulation should have been by simple interest. By an Act of
1792, however, it was provided that the Fund should area-
rAilete at compound interest until the extinction of the debt.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House, that all the
relief the Government offered to the country was a remission '

of one shilling per quarter on the Malt Tax. But that which
in fact it had offered, was a constantly growing and progres-
sive reduction of taxation. •The House had been told by the
Honourable Member for Wiltshire, that the reduction Which
the Government proposed would only give a relief of one per
cent. in proportion to the farmer's rent. Consequently, if
the plan of the Right Hon.. Gentleman were adopted, which
remitted four millions of taxes, the relief would only amount
to three per cent. Thus a person renting an estate at 5001. a-
year would be relieved only to the amount of 151. For spa a
consideration the House could not sanction a measure which
would go to tarnish the public faith, and to destroy the pub-
lic credit. For if the public creditor saw his securities.
taken away one after another, it could not be expected that
he would consider this country to hold that proud situation
whici she had formerly acquired above all others: When the
country was called upon to make a sort of composition with
its creditors, they were bound to show its insolvency. Now
to what were they to appeal to show that fact ?' Was it to
tha state of its revenue—a revenue flourishing in almost' all
its branches ? Was it to the state of its trade? New.
without going into the statements made by his Noble Friend
the other night, by referring to them it would be seen
that the consumption of all the principal necessaries of
life had increased in a proportion beyond the increase of
population, and that the exports and imports had in-
creased to an extent which proved that whilst we. hid,
doubled our consumption-nf foreign articles, the foreigner
had doubled his demand for the produce of our manufactures.
Was this a state in which it was to be declared that the
public faith was slighted, and that the public creditor was
alarnied•for the satisfaction of his just claim ? Another
proof of the prosperity of the country was to be found in
the comparatively small, arrears of the payment of the
revenue. The proportion of taxes not recovered in 1815,
was double what it. was at the present period. In the last,
year, upon a revenue of 26,000,0001., only 450,0001. re-
mained unrecovered. The •, Right Honourable Member-
also congratulated the House upon the progress of
the Saving Banks, and upon the increased funds lodged
in them by the industrious classes.—(Hear.)—Were these
the circumstances which should press the reduction of taxa-
, lion upon us, when that course would have so dangerous ee
l operation upon public credit ? He would address Honour
able Gentlemen as legislators, and he would call upon them
not to allow such a course to he pursecd. If they did so, the
greatness and the glory of Great Britain had departed. They
should not forget, that .if they were weak enough to commit
such an act of political suicide, all other countries would feel
and act upon its influence. They knew that all other coun-
tries had formed their finances upon our system.—France had
a Sinking Fund larger in proportion to .her debt than ours ;
and in America the Sinking Fund was so large, that the ex-
tinction of the public debt would be accomplished in twenty
years. But he did not fear the rivalship of these countries
when he considered the natural resources and energies of our
own ; and particularly if they were supported upon the true
basis of public security and strict public faith. Never was a
night so important to the character and interests of the coun-
try as the present. Upon the event of the decision to which
the House were coming, must depend the great operation
which they were upon the ere of negociating. That opera-
tion must be abandoned if the House should adopt the pro-
position of the Noble Lord. In that case it must be abandon-
ed ; and never, he believed, with a prospect of returning.—
He felt sure that the House would act upon the principles
which guided the last Parliament, and support the Govern..
ment in the important measure which they now contempla-
ted. •

Lord ALTHORPE replied.—He wished the House to re-
collect that the question was, not whether the Sinking Fund
should he taken away, but whether the House were satisfied
with the amount of reductions which the-Government pro-
posed. He wished Hon. Members who intended to oppose
his proposition, to reflect that when they who had consti-
tuents shonid return to them, they must tell them the they
had voted for the measures of the Noble Marquis, opposite.—'
(Hear !)

Strangers sv,re then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided.
For the motion
Against it
Majority -103
When the gallery was opened,
Mr. GOIII.BURN rigs addressing the House' in moving for
leave to bring in a Bill for regulating the Importation of
Arms and Gunpowder into Ireland, and for indemnifying alt
persons who had seized anus and gnnpowder since the Ist of
November, 1831.

After a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery,
from Sir .1. NEss PORT, leave was granted. ' . • .
Mr. GOULBUItN gave notice of a motion, for to•morrow,
for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the population of
Ireland.

SALT TAX.
Mr. CALCRAFT gave notice, that on Thursday, the 28th
of February, he should more fur the repeal of the Salt Tax. .
Mr. HUME moved for Returns of the names of all General
Officers receiving other allowances than the regular kiln), pay
of their rank, with the amount of such allowances ;—also for
returns of the old and new purchases of Commissions, speci-
fYing the difference of value for each- rank, and copies of the
authority for altering the sties of the purchase money ;—also
for the returns of the nUmbers of Officers of every descrip-
tion in the Army who have retired on full or half-hay;—also
for returns of CoMmissions purchased in the -Royal Marines,
together with Promotions, from March 1820 to March 1822;--
also fur returns of the names of all places where Barracks are
kept up, and the ()umbers of Officers and Men in each,
specifying whether Infantry or Cavalry. The motions were
agreed to.
Mr. HUME then asked the Noble Lord what was to be-
done to-morrow in the Committee of Supply?
Sir G. OSBORNE said his intention was to begin with the
wear and tear.

On the motion of Mr. Gouutuant, an abstract of the re-
turn of the population of Ireland was ordered to.be laid be-
fore the House.—Adjourned at HALF-PAW ELEW;N.

COMMO.N-COUNCIL.

A Court of Common Council was yesterday
held at Guildhall.

• A Resolution was passed unanimously, ordering the Cham-
berlain to pay 3001. to Mr. Wontner, the City Marshal, in ad-
dition to the 1001. which he had before received, to indemnify.
him for the expences he had incurred in consequence of his
late severe accident, and as a testimony of the sympathy of
the Court.

Upon the motion of Mr. Savage, it was resolved, that the
name of Thomas Ayres, Esq., be struck out of every Com-
mittee, Commission, and Appointment in that Court ; and that
he be not again eligible to any of its Committees, in conse-
quence of having received money from an• individual to use •
his influence in procuring him an an appointment, under the.
Corporation. •
Mr. ETCKE had a charge of a very grave nature, as affecting
the privileges of the Corporation, to bring forward againSt .a.
collector of King's taxes, who had held out threats of using the•
power vested in him by the Commissioners, unless the indivi-
dual to whom they were so addressed voted in a particular way,
in a certain election. The consideration of his conduct Waior-
dcred to be referred to/the Committee of General Purposes ; as
was also- that of a petition from the London Orphan Society,
praying for a subscription in aid of their fundi.
The Court then proceeded to consider the report of the Bridge-
house Committee, recommending an application to Parliament
for an Act to repeal so much of an Act of 29 Geo. IL, respect-
ing London-bridge, as i'elates to the water-works ; which was
agreed to, and ordered to be presented in the usual manner.
The Court also agreed to petition Parliament for power to
raise monies effectualh to repair Blackfriars-bridge.
At. three o'clock Mr. FAVELL announced that Mr. Hume
was in attendance.

Mr. flume was then conducted in by Mr..Favell and Mr.
Eicke ; and after taking the oaths, .he received the freedom of
the City in a gold box from the Chamberlain with the usual ce-
remony; upon which he returned thanks in a speech of some
length, in which he stated the principles by which his public
conduct was guided.