The Sun.
London, England, 1809-02-28 00:00:00

NAVY. ISTI tvIATES.

Mr. WARD rose to move the Navy Estimates.
Sir C. Pout thought that the Navy
,Estimates
should be delayed until the House had time to con-
sider the Reports of the Naval Commissioners, upon
which thote Esiiinates were founded, The fourth
Report was, as he had understocd, only laid' upon
the table of the House that day.
Mr. WARD had no objection to put off the esti-
mates for a certain time, in order to give Gentlemen
tiine'to read the Reports; he must, however, deny
that these CSTiEllatef4 were altogether fotmed from

these Reports. The i,arions- items of the Navy ,t-
-mates had be.en before the House a lung time, and

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i~

••••..............
Gentlemen could see that they wero only the own-

mon and ordinary charges., -
Lord H. PSTTY thought, thißif th'q Fourth Re-
port, which nad been laid upon the Table thatid,iy,
contained those reasons which induced the Lord of
the Admiralty to present those estimates, the House
should have- time to examine that report, and judge
of those reasons: •

Mr. WHITBREAD thought it strange,' that reports,
stated to be made in the year iBO7, should not be

:laid on the Tablee of that House till 1809.

Mr. WELLBSLRY PoLa said, that it was the'ge-
neral custom, 'when a report was made, to send it to
the Board to which it related, in order to regulate
its condua. They were afterwards got back from
those boards to be copied, and as those reports were
many and voluminous, the copying them necessarily
took up a great deal of time. He was free to admit, ,
that he had not conceived that it would be material
to have the report sooner.on the Table. Tha tourt4
report had been a&ed on for some' time, had beet%
Printed by the. Navy Board, and was pretty generate
ly circulated, He confessed' he had waited till all
the reports were copied, instead of Taylaying them on

the table one by one.
Mr.-WARD said, that of the it, 500,0001.
which
the 'estimates of the present year exceeded, tb4t of

the last year, 1,275,0001. was for transports. ,
MK WHITBREAD thought 'the Hon. Gentleman)
ought to lave presented the 'RepOils of th° 1711'"1
CommilOouers one by one as they came out, and not,
have waited till they were colleaed in large folio vo-
lumes, which the House bad not time to take

consideration.
Mr. WILBERFORCR, thought, that the
ought to have been laid on the table the first (13Y
the Session, but he did not think that.there,should
be any longer delay in bringing `forWard the MO
.Eatimates than till next, Friday.
Sir C. PoLa said; that he certainly did not disar
ve pro of that pelt of the increase of the expenditure.
which proceeded from giving an augmentanon to the'
salaries of the Clerks in the. Admiralty. reports
thought,
however, that the Board of Admiralty had been guilty
of great extravagance, and that there must be consi.
siderable irregukritiesin paying. the, different ships.
The crew of a 64 bad been seen parading about the
streets of the metropolis; and harl•gonedown y a
body to the Admiralty to demand their pay. He
disapproved of. the appointment of. .the additional
Commissioners of the Navy, and feared that those
apPointinents were obtained through ptivate in
fluence, and that it was not for •the good of the
.ter v ice.
Mr. W. Pout said,
that as to appointments of
the persons who were to be the Naval Commission-
ers, Lord Mulgrave had made it from a list
had 'been returned to him' by. the Naval.Lorcls,
.°1
those Captains that were most fit .to be Colvil
sinners in the Navy, and that from that Ist tit; a 1
pointment was offered to each according to his sent"
ority. Ai to the crew of tlie Saturn,
the real ,tors
was' this :--What:--What ship' had been a long time 4'li
and on her return to this country, the wen got trave
.o u
of absence front their Captain. It was a iegulatt,
introduced by the present Adam alty, that when a
ship returned front having long abroad ona
torriAn station,
.the men were to receive ininiedk
ately a certain proportion of. their pay; into° have
leave (if their Captain permitted them) go and see
ji
their friends. .f Now. the Saturn happened not to
Sidi dire& Within the order, for teceiving a certain
proportion of pay. The 'men, howev( r, g. teave of
absence, ond finding
money, they waited at the Admiralty, and respeBful-
ly asked for a part of their pay. They were ordered
themselves in London without
which they immediately did, and by. the
to return and report themselves, to their CaPtain'e
orders
the Admiralty they •reeeived that proportion
pay, and got farther leave of absence to see the.:,,r,
friends. As to the Vi*tualling Board, the buses'
that department had been so gross; that it was
abso-
lutely necessary to make some changes. He would
instance one case, where a man charged 4000 ton or
casks more .than existed, and yet his,3CCOOta were
passed as perfetily regular. The duties of the Vied'
tootling Board had been increased twelvefold Alto
1798. , He meant nothing disrespe&ful of those
disc
very respectable men
missed ; they had long been in the service, end wee
of their
; but boi% Mr. ,Marsh and Mr.
Budge were very infirm, and desirous of retiring;
Lord Mulgrave called on the Members of the Boo"
for their opinion, and on their suggestion, he .:Ause
Mr. Browne and Mr. Hobbin, the former of whom
bad been Secretary io Lord Keith, and the latter Se".
vretary to Lord Howe. When Lord Molgrave cargo:
to the Admiralty, it had been previouslydetermiace
that Mr. Harrison'was to retire from the public tier
vice oh 6001, a year, being aaaths of his salary, "n"
his place he gave to Colonel-Walsh, who had 1e0g,,•
been an Officer the publiOseryiee, was a marl °`
business,•and a great part of his:business was to Pr°-
vide`necessaries for the army. ,
Mr. WELLESLBY POLE entered into a defence of
Lord. Mulgre4e, as to the appointment
which baLl
been alluded to, and insisted, that the' estiiii:ite` o,f
the "Navy did not *depend oil the •4.th.
which so much 'stress had been laid by itle.o°"%";
able Baronet, and assured the .Commitlee,*
whenever the subjea came before them, be w""
be glad to meet the HonOurable Baronet or anY othera
Member on every point which. they' entbrace+;L-
was glad, however, that his Hon. Friend .(.Mr.
Ward) had . agreed to poslione the consideration 01
them tilt Friday.
The CHAIRMAN informed ibe Honourable Gen..
tletnen that there was no question befOre the Corn"
mittee.
A conversation, however, of. some +length tn°„.
place, in the course of which Mr. it WAtio acc°4
Sir C. Pocit of not speaking out ,in a manly vcasq
but that he preferred dealing in insinuatioits• He ha
felled fault with some appoitunients which hadita
fact originated in the recommendation of Lord
Vincent, who had ever seemed to be that Hon.
ronet's mcirius Apolli) in all naval regulations.
Sir C. POLE said, .he had never: maitivated
41)
thing, but on alt occasions spoken out..openly-...;
mentioned every name he was. acquainted with ; ana
where he did nut -knew names, had. mentiened 01.
Were relations. particularly Mr. Stewait's appoint
meth.
"0.
Mr. W. PoLa said, he had .forgot .Meution tit
"16 of bit.. Stewart, who had , been.very higulY re
0,„
commended to _Lord Mulgrave,.and who was.blig
ed to he; though a -young mailA every' way well (I'l'
lifted for alive business.

1

Mr. WttitiiiikAii tbotigM the flepoili ought la.
have !),!,2r) produced godlier than this evening;, and
if the .Ntvy Estimates: were at 'all-dgpendent on any
one or ahem, even Friday wbuld be too short a time
for the proper consideratidn of the Reports, .
TheCRANCELI,CiIt of the EXCHEQUER said, there
was nd question before the House ; but as the Re-
ports had been laid on the table so very recently as
the present evening, and it was thought that one of
them was at least material tciWards the due conside,
ration of then); he would propose that the Navy
Estimates should be taken into consideration on Fri=
day fortnight.
Mr. MARTIN, Mr. PULLER, mid Mr. P. MOORE
each said a few words ; atter which
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and asked
leave to sit again on Wednesday.—Granted.
' The Report of the Army Estimates was then or-
dered to be brought up, to-morrow.
A new Writ was ordered to be issued for the Bo-
rough of King's Lynn, in Norfolk, is the room of
Lord Walpole, now Earl of Orford.
On the motion of Mr. BANKRE, the Serjeant was
called to the Bar, and asked if he had any RkTort. to
make to the House with respell to .1. Anthony Snee,
rhorn, he had been ordered by that House to take
into custody.
The Serjeant stated, that the Messenger had
called at his house several times, and could not find

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It

_l'the Messenger (Mr. Wright) was then called in,
and Stated, that he had been in search of Mr. Shee
ever since,the evening on which the House had
ordered him to be taken into custody. He went
on that evening, about .a quarter before seven
o'clock, and being told that he might soon be ex-
petted home, waned till near twelve o'clock; ex-
petting his return. He called next morning, and
was informed that he had not come home. He
went again on the Wednesday and Thursday, but
without success. He then went to other apart-
ments which we.e described to him as belonging
to Mr. Slice, where, he was informed, he carried.
on the business of au Army Agent, under the name
of Conner, but was equally unsuccessful.
Mr. BANKRS then moved, that it appears to this
House, that .1. Anthony Shee had absconded, in
order to avoid being served with the Order of that
Hodse.
He then moved, that an humble Address be pre.
Rimed to his Majesty, praying that he would be
Pleased to , give orders tor the issuing of a piocla-
Illation, with_ such reward as his Majesty might
think proper, for the discovering, apprehending and
detaining tho Said J. Anthony Oft, otherwise Con!
terokoOrdered.

DISTILLATION BILL.
The Order of the Day having been read for going
into the further consideration of the Beport 91 the
Committee on the Distillation Prohibition Bill,
Mr. Folrait moved, that the Resolutions be read
second time.
Ski. NOWPORT adverting to the late division on
this Bill, in which' the majority was very inconsi-
derable, stated that circumstance, among othert, as
* reason for re-committing the Bill, in order that
1,4 Merits might be more fully discussed than they
bad hitherto been. He wished it to be re-commit.
led for tne_purpose of extending the. prohibition to
Veland. The 'tight Hon. Gentleman opposite had
staid on a former occasion (as he was given to uti-
ritnanit). that lie would not propose the extension of
the prohibition to Ireland, because it wes the natural
disposition of the Irish to dtsobele the her. To Con-
tradiet this assertion, he would produce the testi-
mony of an old English writer of the highest reepec-
tability, Sir John Davis, who declared, that no peo-
ple were better disposed to obey the law than the
rish, provided they were assured of equal justice.—
But if there were a disposition to disobey the law, it
did not exist exclusively in the lower orders, as he
via_s_ lOW Will the 'statement made by the Itightilion.
r
r"tlettian.. The reports made by the Officers of
.Iwise declared, that illicit distillation had been en-
tVraged t!), the higher orders for the purpose of en-
d ung their tenantry to pay their refits. The period
it which the Bill of the last year was passed, and the
Present Bill was under, consideration, were mate,
r*ly different. In the former instance, the year
eras so far advanced, that the quantity f grain iu
the country, and its proportion to the consumption,
could, with tolerable accuracy, be ascertained. That
was not the case at present. Unquestionably a great
good had resulted, in !rebind, from the prohibition
of last year, by its tendency to increase the con-
dmPtion of malt liqnors, and consequently to re-
the consumption of spirits. This was a strong
Motive for its continuance. There were other very
forcible reasons. Front the poit of Down it had.
been distinttly stated, that if the distillation from
!ern were persevered in, it must produce an alarm-
mg scarcity in the country. Nay, the Right Holt.
Gentleman opposite had himself, not two hours ago,
Itlleged, in the Committee of Supply, the increased
price of provisions in Ireland as an inducement for
:thetommikttle to vote larger seats to the different
charitable institutions; yet he the next morncnt
sterile forward to • recommoud.- that the distillation
from corn should be permitted lit Ireland, because
provisions were not too high ! To whiCh of these
'two Opposite statements were the House to listen ?
1,!:.r himself, he was disposed to prefer the former,
Iskb torn of Ireland was as much the corn 'of Great
ithrlttill as the corn of Yorkshire) and if there was-
igiPPrehettaion of a scarcity in Great Britain, Ire-
I. (Stitt nOt to be allowed to distil. He conclud-.
/ moving, that the Bill be re-committed.
t. sirs POLLEIt thought, that of all the weak ques.
1"s this was the weakest. What I did his Majes.
ties 1114144ra confess that they were unable to re-
Plea With proceedings. If this were the case, and
• .14. 146 proceedings were, allowed, he should have a
good right to contend for a great body of his consti•
tzeb!s along the costa of Sussex, who would also
very happy to be indulged in a little illicit traffic;
4i MUnsters could not controul those who disobeyed
tt
laws, at last they ought to be ashamed tif
let-
U,ng out such a secret. As to the Irish nation, they
*v.! re a fine honourable people. The condua of the
."1„;$11 Members had been most proper and attentive.
me wished . the two countries to be as one. With
"%Pea to the Iris's in. Ireland, a greet deal bad been
Said about their religion, and Other things that he
knew nothing ofi for his part, be believed they
sanly wanted catching and taming--(Alaugh.) But
Ilmv could they be caught and tamed if their spirits
ire aggravated by the spirits which they were to
ha allowed to distil, and which would make them

than eVet. le thought the Ihe (Mr. t'.) ItAtfeect Nfiiinititd Of Sappiy that
Bill impolitic and pdrtiali and would tlierefore move t evening to vote increased sums to pitblic charter
for its te-doinmittrient. schools' on thd ground. Of the increased price bi

_ .
provisions. It was on the ground of the increased-
price of other articles beside.: provisions—of clothes;
&c. If the present Bill were to hinder corn Cotuing
from Ireland to England, he would not urge
But it was only to prevent the veto from getting
into the hailds of the private distillers, and thus ul-
timately fro+ insuring the morals of thecountry:
Nit one third of the illicit stills in Ireland had been-
seized ; and yet it was computed that by that otie
third, no less than 800,000 gallons of,whiskey had
been made in the month. t The quantity remaining
cm hand of the foreign spirits which had been im-
ported into Ireland since last July, sufficiently
evinced the enormous supply, from the private sills.
Adverting to a statement made by an Hon: Gentle-
man opposite, that oats could not be obtained in
Cumberland from Wexford under 375. a quarter;
he expressed his surprise at this circumstantance, as
he held in his hand an official return from Newry,
(dire Elly Opposite to the shores of Cumberland),
dated Feb. t t, in which the price of oats was stated
to be 255. 2d. British, per quarter. In other places
the price was somewhat less. An Hon. Gentleman
behind him had talked of catching and taming the
Irish. Part of them had been caught in the net of
the Union. Did they require taming ? He wished
the Hon. Gentleman would come over to Ireland,
and see if the Irish were as wild and as violent as
he represented them to be. On the contrary; he
was satisfied, that although the speech which the
Hon. Gentleman had made that night was tied
about his neck, he might travel train one end of
Ireland to the, other in perfe& security, and he was
sure that be would everywhere meet with the great-
est hospitality. He denied that the Bill was any
violation of the principle of the Act of Union, al-
though it might appear to be an infringement on the
letter of it. •
Mr. BROWNE stated, that to his certain knowledge
conditional orders had been sent to his country
from Ireland, to transmit thither very large quanti-
ties of grain, provided the prohibition of the distil-
lation should not be extended to that country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHhQUER represent-
ed the improbability of such a circumstance,e it the
Hen. Gent. meant that any but seed corn hail been
FO ordered. For the price of grain being dearer in
Great Britain than in Ireland, it was extravagant to
suppose that it could be intended to buy in the dear
market'for the' purpose of selling in the cheap.
• , After a few words from Mr. Alderman Combe,
Colonel Perry, and Mr. Barham, the question being
loudly called ter, the gallery was cleared, and a di-
vision took place. „.
For the Recommital -
Against, it -
The Bill was accordingly recommitted.
IMPORTATION OF FLAX SEED.
The House went into a Committee to consider of
the propriety of encouraging the importation of Flax.
Seed" into Ireland.
, Mr. FOSTER, after stating that this was merely a
temporary measure, which he trusted would lead to
the culture and preservation of the article in suffi-
cient quantity for the uses of this country, proposed,
that a bounty of ss, per bushel should be allowed'
on the first 50,000 bushels of foreign flax seed im-
ported into Ireland from Bth March to Bth April,
1809.
Atter some observations from. Sir T. Tartan, Mr.
Rose, and Sir G. Hill, the Re4alution was agreed to,
and the Report ordered to be' received to-morrow.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed
of, and the House adjourned at half past twelve
o'clock.

Sir T. Tuntoilt could not Perdeive sithythe--pro,
hibition shoilld not. be as extensive as it WAS last
year: The prices acorn were ea high, the ports of
the Continent . were as closely stmt. CoMmon
sense and the justice of thecausedenaanded that the
prohibition should be extended to Ireland.: By the
Aet of Union it was declared; that a reciprocity of
interestsiand a reciprocity of sacrifices' should exist
between the two countries ; not that the landed in-
terest of the one country should he upheld at the et
pence of the other.. Adverting to the prices of grain
on that day, he stated them to be as follow : wheat
five guineas a quarter; barley, two pounds eleven
shillings ; oats, two guineas, the quartern loaf was,
fourteen-pence. Under such circumstances, if corn
was as abundant in Ireland as it had been stated to
be, be begged for God's sake we might have it here.
There was great reason to believe that a considerable
proportion of the wheat sown last year would be
worth nothing.• It became therefore doubly incum-
bent on us to husband our present resources. He
denied that,' in the measure of the last Session, the
interests of'the West India Merchants.had been ex-
pressly consulted. The Report of the Committee
toinvestigate the subjea had recommended the pro-
hibition of distillation from grain, on the ground of
the scarcity of grain, not as a Ikon to the West India
Merchants. As therefore.no boon had. in 'that case
been given to the Welt India ‘Merchants, so neither
' was it right to-give:a boon to the landed interest of
Ireland at the expence of the general interest of both
'countries. By such a Bill as the present, the 6th
Article of the Act of Union would be violated both
in letterrind in spirit. He felt pretty confident that
he might with safety appeal to the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer for England, whether
lie did not on this occasion sacrifice his own senti-
ments to those of his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer for Ireland.
Mr. Hussar charaaerised the present measure
as most extraordinary, inconsistent, and futile. The
Bill of the last year did not originate in the distress of
the West India trade, but in the scarcity of grain.
At the same time he felt it to be his duty to pay a'
just debt to the Legislature, by acknowledging that
it had been most critically beneficial to that trade.
The Bill before the House was composed of a va-
riety of heterogeneous propositions; which, like cer-
tain chemical qualities, when mingled, naturalized
One another. This was a moment in which the ad-
vantages of the Union ought to be manifested.—
Could it be believed that the law was so impotent in
Ireland that it could not render itself respected ? He
did hope, that if the unlicensed stilla multiplied like
the heads Of Hydra, the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite would find strength enough to crush them.
Why were they so numerous ? Only because the
illicit distillation enjoyed superior 'advantages to the
legal. Reduce those advantages, and the illicit dis-
tillation would cease. The sacrifice of a few shil-
lings a gallon in the duty on spirits distilled from
sugar, would effect this desirable obje&, and such
,appeared 'to him the only mode of doing so with ed-
ge'
antage. He trusted that the }lotto would'one
do be, persuaded of the absurdity of interfering with
le islative regulations on objects conneeted with grain
or agriculture.
Sir R. PRIME expressed his conviction that if the
Bill was passed in lit present shape, the most fatal
consequences might ensue. He wished .that the two
countries might go hand in hand, and mutually
assist one another. The North of England stood
very much in need of the produce of Ireland.
Owing to the depression of manufactures and trade,
the people there were not half fed. The oats of
Ireland would satisfy them. They • had hitherto
COnducted themselves with great temper and pa-
tience ; but if they understood that a part of that
which might be appropriated to their support was
allowed to be consumed, not in the preservation but
in the destruction of man, they, might probably not
remain so well iatisfied.
Sir A. WaLidisutz declared himself to be of opi-
nion that the people of England would not get a'
grain of corn less out of Ireland, if the Bill should
stand as it thew was, than if the prohibition were
extended to the latter country. Grain in Ireland
was much mote abundant than -in the last year.
The price of provisions would show this, for though
comparatively high' in the market of Dublin, it was
Much loWer in Ireland in, general. If he thought
that the, measure would bear hard upon Great Bri-
tain, he would unquestionably
vote agajost it ; but
being satisfied of the contrary, it iboulehave his
cordial suppori.
Me. CURWAK described the scarcity of oats in the
North of England, and particularly iu .Cumberland,
to be very great. They were not able to get them
from Wetbrd.under 375. a quarter. He was de-
ttirous that the prohibition should. be extended to
Ireland, and lie was. satisfied that it would not at all
injure the agriculture or interests of that country.
raur the purpose of preventing the illicit distillation,
4 reduction might be made in the duties on, thu
is%iuriiiiti
spirits distilled
istilsletadtefr6oem
thes eugrar4nu ande such
in the Present
t
might well be made in preference to bearing sacrifice
crberd
upon the people. He recommended that if t he.pre-
sent Bill should be passed, its duration should be'
limited to two mouths, in order to'give time for an
ample investigation Of the expediency of a mote
permanent measure.
Mr. PARNELL declared that the present Bill was
a dire 4 violation of the A& of Union, and one of a
nature Unprecedented since the passing of that Act.
By that Ad,: a final and perManent adjustment of
Commercial jealousies had been made, and the House
ought to pause, before it cnaeted a law which dis-
tinaly violated that compd.
Mr. Vomit replied to the various arguments that
had been urged against the measure. He complained.
that the Hon. Iliirenet opposite had misrepresented
him, when he stated that he had said the people of
Ireland naturally disobeyed the law. All that he had
observed on that subjea was, that the lower orders,
from theii; ignorance of law, field it in utter cont.
tempt, and were guilty of disobedience to it. The
Hon. Baronet had himself declared, that the higher
orders were at least as apt to enequrage the infrac-
tion of the law as the lower orders to commit it.--
If therefore, he could for a moment suppose (which
he did not) that such was the Hon. Baronet's in.
tention, he might Infer that' lie meant to extend the
accusation of a proneness to disobedience, to a lunch
greater split:N. The Um Baronet had Said. that

- • 99

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