The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-25 00:00:00

STUN.

enced in their support of Ministers, as well by themselves as
by their friends and relations; and to say that their admission
was a breach of the independence of Parliament..' he should
proceed to show the increase in the influence of the Crown
since the passing ofthe resolution of 1780. Ile knew of no other
means of shewingahat increase than by s. -reference to the en-
ormous increase in, the expenditure of the country. He must
therefore beg the House to look at what the establishments
were when that reSolutien was come to; and compare them to
those of the present time. The • whole expence of the Civil
Government in 1780, was 1;130,0001. That, it would be recol-
lected, was a time of war, and the military and naval expendi-
ture for this country and Ireland amounted to 14 or 15 millions.
The collection and management of the revenue cost 2,225,0001.
So that including every particle of expence which could be in-
curred,,the whole civil and military expenditure of the country
amounted to no more than 18,000,0001. Now let the House see
how the patronage of the Crown stood with regard to the corn-
paratiaie expenditure over which it exercised controul at the
present period. The civil and military expenditure of the
country, independent of the expence of the Colonies; now
amounted to twenty-seven millions and a half. The whole ex-
%penditure of the Colonies could not be estimated at less than a
million...aWrling, which made the whole expenditure at the pre-
sent time 28.500,0001. instead of 18,000,0001. as in 1780. But it-
shouki be remembered that this was a peace revenue and expen-
diture, and that the other was in a time of war. If, therefore,
they looked to what would, have been likely to be-the peace
establishment at that time, it would be found not to have ex-
ceeded, in all probability, the amount of seven millions. In fact,
that was the permanent establishment agreed to after the close
of the war in 1791. Taking, then,the pennament peace establish-
ment at that time, and comparing it with the permanent peace
establishment of the present, the latter would be found to have
increased four-fold. They were therefore to consider the in-
fluence of the Crown to be quadrupled in point of money, and
in the number of persons holding places under the Crown, as
their employer. How much more were they called upon, if
they valued the' balance of -the powers of the Constitution,
and if they valued the indenenderice of Parliament,—how
much more were they called upon than their ancestors of
1780 to declare, that the increased influence of the Crown
ought to be diminished. It might be objected to his calcu-
lation, that the patronage of the same quantity of money
was more valuable at that period than now. To prevent
all cavil of that nature; he would say that one pound then
was worth two now, and then the Crown would have a double
patronage now upon the increased amount of - revenue. If
they took the number of men emplpyed by the Government,
they would find it doubled. They would find the proportion
of increased influence going on in all its various branches.
The number of men raised in the year 1780 was 36,000 English
troops. He was aware that there was a subsidiary army of
30,000. But influence- could only be given by the appoint-
ments of British subjects. He apprehended that it could not
for one moment be argued that paying the Landgrave of Hesse
could be any source of support to the Crown. The number
of British officers then employed was 2,000., Now there were
8,300 officers in the British service ; and if be included the
10,800 upon the half-pay, the whole would amount to upwards'
of 19,000. In 1780 the naval officers were 1800: now they
were 800 ; but if they took the half-pay there would be 7000.
—Would any one be prepared to say that this was not an in-
crease of the influence of the Clown e And when they had seen
what had lately been done towards an officer on half-pay for
conduct opposed to Ministers out of that House—and perhaps
in that House—he would ask whether a Government posses-.
sing such a power of patronage, extending over all the princi-
pal families of the kingdom, without any control over its con-
duct except the vague and undefinable power of that House,
where the placemen themselves sat, and many of the officers
couldwlio wbe reel
iakt
et ll
yt mercy ercy
preserve o f thtehseame b
al
abneccek aonf eltnhoe d fcoonsthe
tßultii no
ni s t?e___r ,
There was another head upon which he would shew the im-
mense increase of influence which the Crown had acquired.
The Colonies had increased from the period with which he was
comparing the present to theatumber of twenty-nine. But he
would say what the difference of the Colonial establishments
was since the year 1791, when the permanent establish-
ments were fixed. Twelve Colonies had been added to our
possession since that time, and merely in taking the Staf ap-
pointments in those Colonies, it would be found that there had
been added 150 places to be holden at the pleasure of' the
Crown. The civil places had increased in proportion. In six
Colonies the civil places had been all added since 1791, and
upon the whole they gave an increase of 500 civil places.—
Since the year 1780 the- increase of civil and military offices
together, exclusive of the common regimental appointments,
amounted to 800 and upwards. But this was merely upon the Co-
lonial patronage independent of all other great sources arising
from the collectith and management of the Revenue. This was
only an off-set from the main trunk, and it placed under the
unexamined controul of the Crown an account of no less than
800 employments. He would venture to say that if this increase
were compared to any which had taken place in 1780, even
from the year 1630, the earliest period at which we hadcolonial
possessions of any importance—the latter would shrink into
nothing. In this calculation of the increase of Crown influence
he did not include any patronage of the offices under the East
India Company ; because the Crown certainly did not possess
the full patronage of those places. But when he considered
that the. Company had been brought much more under the con-
trol of the Executive, by the regulations made at the time of the
American war, he could not consider it as being entirely rode-,
pendent of the Government. The increase of places in this de-
partment was enormous. In the year 1793, the whole number
of appointments, including Cadets and Assistant Surgeoncies,
was 123. In 180 they amounted to 527. By the arrangements
which had since been made, giving the Government greater
power over the department, it lead obtained one-fourteenth of
the patronage. Supposing this to have existed in 1791, which
he believed it did not, the influence would have increased from
the proportion of nine places to 38, being fourfold. This pa-
tronage of 38 places would seem very little after the 800 to
which he had alluded. But when it was considered that these
were annual appointments, it would be seen that they were
equal to 400 ordinary places. Therefore in the East and West
Indies the amount of the mass of new places created since the
year 1780 amounted to 1200 and odd. But the grand increase
undoubtedly was at home. In the management and collection
of the revenue there was an increase of fourfold. In 1780 that
expence was less than a million, whereas it now amounted to four.
Another circumstance to-which he should allude,as tending ma-
terially to extend the influence of the Crown, was the Debt it-
self. The interest of the debt at the time he originally re-
ferred to was only six millions; an now, including
11
the charge
of-management, it was nearly fifty millions. The emoluments
in the power of the Crown by th' vast increase were made to
operate in many various, ways. But without going into the
particulars of those laws arising out of the debt, or those ar-
rangements which behampered and beset every branch of com-
merce itself, it was evident that (justify or excuse it as they
would) the result was to place all traders without a single ex-
ception completely under the power of the Officers of the
Crown. A trader might act prudently or warily in the course
of his traffic, but be he ever so prudent or wary, he could not
always avoid the snares laid by the legislative traps of. the re-
venue. Whatever might be his skill, he was most likely to
come in contact with that frightful code which contained so
many pits literally yawning to receive him. This came within
the experience of many in that House ; but to gratify the cu-,
riosity of those who might not be acquainted with the sub-
ject, he would illustrate his statement by a few examples. He
might almost take them at random. He would begin with the
revenue laws respecting soap, and he would refer to part of a
section in an Act regulating the duties upon that article.
It would shew the prying eye, and the skilful though some-
what rude •hand of the Government. And here he would
remark, that the Excise Laws were generous in one respect,
for they had little to do with fractions. They dealt in penal
round numbers.—(A laugh.)—He fotind by the section in
question, that no maker of soap should, under a penalty of
5001., have any-pipe or other conveyance for the removal of
lees ; os use any tock, crane, syphon, or other means of con-
veyance of the lees from the copper. Nay, the lees was for-
bidden to perforate—(a laugh)—and the only means of con-
veyance allowed by the law was a pump. But by a singular
regard for the soapmaker and his lees, the former was al-
lowed the privilege of a latlle.=---(Lataghter.)—There was a
penalty of 5001. imposed for making a hole in the copper for
the purpose he had mentioned. Eut this legislation led to
a difficulty which was no other than this :—the lees, if not
allowed to escape in some way or other, would explode and
disappoint the imposers of the tax. And therefore by a
singular degree of accuracy and of tenderness towards the
soapmaker (who was treated just as a sort of funnel in aid
of the Revenue), he was allowed to make small holes at
the head of his copper. Notwithstanding the previously ex-
posed general abhorrence of holes, nature had successfully
advanced her claim, and the soapmaker was allowed to

PRICE SEVENPENCE.

bore Small-heles,. one eighth of an inch each in diametet.—.
(A
..laugh.)—But this -was only to prevent explosion.,--- • ,
(Laughter,)--It would be endless to attempt adducing instances,.
upon all subjects connected with tne: Reyenue, but he coiaici
not refrain from just mentioning,. the tax upon. Salt;, in the. cols
lection of which there was more oppression exercised than bad -.-
ever before been invented. The sacred corner-stone of she Sys-
tem was in laying down penalties to, throw the burthen-of- ex-
culpative proof as much as possible on the accused. An. informer, •
who, in all other countries, was considered a Suspected person,
was in the Court of Exchequer received very favourably, And . ,
his evidence considered as a thing of course. Another in-stance of .
the system of controul exercised. by Government,. was tO. be •
found in the Glass Law, for there.was a seParete code for al-
me& every article. Thatlaw, by a singular regard for inathe- • :-
blades, declared that the plates should be made. rectangular,, • •
with the sides and ends perpendicular; for such was the -ma-
thematical accuracy of the. Exchequer. And, under a- pe-
nalty of 1001., the sides were also, to be- parallel _with each
other, in default of which the offender, who must have corn-
witted an impossibility to respect this law, would, as he before
observed, incur a penalty of one hundred pounds. This pro-
vision would be found in an Act passed in the 51st year of. the
reign of the late King. The greatest possible power was also
given over persons who had offended, or were likely. to offend,
against the ellevenne Laws. A Bill had one morning at two
o'clock been quietly brought into that House, giving a power
to relieve offenders against the Revenue -.awa, even after
conviction. This Bill had passed into a law, and had put the
finishing .hand to the system of controul he had alluded to.
Another instance of this was to be observed in the Act - against -
mixing ale and table beer intended for sale. He knew of an
information on that Act which contained in one count a claim
for 105 penalties of 1001. each.-(Hear, hear, hear!).-The
changes had been rung 'five times upon twenty, and had thus
threatened to overwhelm the defendant. The number and
amount of these penalties
.were such that human nature could
not stand the trial ; and in nine cases out of ten the defendant
gave in. He by no means intended to say that it was seri-
ously 'proposed to exact all these penalties,- but the suing
for them drove them into submission. Thus the. increase
of the revenue becaine necessary by the increase of the
debt ; and the threatening of the people with the infraction
of revenue laws, which few of them understood,. made almost
every trader a suitor to the Crown, and sent many more Mem-
bers of Parliament than were usual as applicants to the Trea-
sury, and, as a consequence, the direct influence of the Crown
was increased, in the worst possible way. The 'influence, too,
was much better arranged than it was formerly; the real
weight of the- revenue was considerably . increased ; and the
Treasury got its long arms into .every Public Department. It .
interfered more than it had ever done before : and in support
of this assertion lie had only to refer to the shifting of the Ex-
cise and Customs patronage to the Treasury ; and the com-
pensation, as it was called, to the two former in the shape of
increased salary. It was perfectly true that we had come
down from an expenditure of 132 millions, to the comparatively
moderate, but not insignificant, sum of seventy-seven millions.
But the close of the war had not brought a' cessation of its
ordinary effects ; for many people were still looking up
to the Government, as their first " 'Ways and Means."—
Formerty the people of this country were not accustomed to
look for a part of their income from the public purse. They
were accustomed to look upon their industry as the source of
their income ; but they had acquired vicious habits in the pun-
suit of army and navy appointments, writerships, cadetships,
and situations of all kinds and sizes from the highest, which
were good enough to tempt the highest families, to the lowest,
which were accessible to those in the lower classes. This
state of dependence, he was sorry to say it, was deeply
rooted in the hihger classes. It had become a habit to look to
the Court for the means of subsistence. Though the amount of
our expenditure was a little diminished, the habit, the struggle,
and the subserviency continued. When all these were tatter
into consideration, he thought that if Parliament had reason
to pass the Resolution of 171$0, it had now much stronger'reas
son to echo it. It' those who adopted that Resolution were now
alive, they would not be contented with re-affirming it ; but
would follow it up with measures of a most searching and des
cisive nature. Mr. Dunning had spoken of " the corrupt pe-
cuniary influence which prevailed within those walls." He
had said that " he knew fifty Members of that House who
held opinions in that house opposite to those for winch they
voted within the house." He added, " It you goad me I will -
name them ;" but nobody challenged him. Tile predecessor
of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair had said, that he
felt bound as an honest man to say, that the influence of the .
Crown had increased beyond the idea of that of a limited Mo-
narchy. There was another opinion, and one of a man who
was no vehement patriot, or one who was particularly conspi-
cuous in obstructing the measures of Government—tie meant
Mr. Justice Blackstone, his opinion anterior to the Ameyican
war. Blackstone stated that, in his opinion, the Bill of Rights
and other advantages we bad obtained since the Revolution. •
were more than counter-balanced by the vast force of influence
derived from the Riot Act, the Standing Army, and the ina
creased National Debt. At the present moment we. had net
only the Riot Act, but six other memorable Acts; an army
not of 17,000 men, which was its full amount when Black- -
stone wrote, but of 90,050 men ; and -a debt of 800 mil-
lions instead of 130 millions. Could tire House, there-
fore, possibly doubt, that if Mr. Dunning, Mr. Justice
Blackstone, and Sir Fletcher Norton, had to revise their
opinions, they would now hesitate to re-enact their former
measures ? tie now came to consider the answers usually •
given to those who contended that the influence of the Crown
had improperly increased. The late Mr. Rose had admitted
that 1500 new places had. increased, but then he urged that WO
had been abolished. The places increased, however, averaged
3001. a year, while those abolished averaged- but frOls. year.
Since Mr. Rose's time many augmentations had taken place
in the number of places. The next answer was, that there
were fewer placemen in that House then, than there were. in .
1780. At that time there were between 80 and 'JO—he would -
say 90, for the benefit of the argument, to be held by the oppo- . ,
site side of the House ; by the returns laid before the Houle if
appeared that there were now about 80 in that House. Ile
protested, however, against the argument to be drawn -from
this fact. It was not of the number of placemen actually in- .
Parliament that he complained ; it was of the number of per- - • .
sons purchased at elections and county meetings. To him it
was of little matter whether the man whawas corrupted held
the office himself, or was influenced by one who Md. The .
application at the Treasury in the morning was always ac-
companied
by an understood promise of the vote in the even-
ing, no matter on whose personal behalf the application was
made. The number of placemen in Parliament had been con-
siderably reduced before the year 1780; but the Houeadid not,
on that account, stop short when the Resolution of that day
was offered for their consideration. The Lords had, some sink,
before the Act limiting the number of placemen, declared that
the number of them in that House was not less than between n
and 300. And yet the House had not hesitated to resolve that
the influence of the Crown ought to be diminished. The prin-
ciple was still the same, and it ought to be followed by the -
same remedy. He now came, and with some pleasure, to the
last of the answers given to the present argament. It was the
often repeated answer respecting " the right working of the
system." It was said, thatnotwithstanding ail these tact*, we
enjoyed as much practical liberty as was possible, and that Pat-
liament was as independent as under all the circumstances -•
was necessary. But they had all witnessed the conduct of
Parliament. They knew that whoever was the Minister, and
whatever he proposed, the House uniformly supported the
person and the measure. He (Mr. B.) laid down the prenc-
sition as broadly as possible. The rule was almost without
net
exception. He would say, that anybody whom the Crown
might name its Minister, weld find the support of . •
ment, provided he were selected twin the class of persona
usually retorted to for the purpose of filling high offices, anti
provided he offered to risk his situation on the measure pro-
posed. With these two qualifications he would lay down the
rule most confidently. Mr. Pitt, when in office, was supported
generally by a majority of four to one; tut it was said at that
time that this was owing to the hereditary greatness of his
name, his own splendid talents, -and his tmimpeached personal
integrity. When he went out of office, he was succeeded by
one who resembled him in one little circumstance. It was that •
of beingyhief Minister. It was then found that this circum-
stance was the greatest point in Mr. Pitt's favour : indeed, the
only one which rendered him desirable. 'For on •the very
first trial of strength between him and Mr. Addington, the.
House of Commons was rudely put to the test. Mr. Pitt said
-to them—" No more flattery ; no more songs in my favour out
of doors, or tirades in my praise within it; come to the vote
ye majority. The question is Addington ox ma." What was
the consequence ? Why,that 333 out of 400 Members-were free
to confess that they preferred Air. Addington.—(Cheers from
the Opposition.)—Everything was then forgotten—name, ances-
try, popularity, gratitudes—Wheers)--the gratitude of his place-.

--men and contractors, his Hon. Baronets, his Knights of the Shire
and rotten boroughholders. The men whom he used to feed,
to command and drag to the vote, from the highest to the lowest,
all, yea, all of them forsook him on the first personal question
of confidence between Mr. Addington and himself. The name
and unenvied popularity of Mr. Addington were found to
be an overmatch for all Mr. Pitt's great qualities. There
were but 66 faithful among the faithless;, and :these soon fell
• down to 35, A coalition was shortlYformed between Mr. Pitt,
.Mr: Fox, and Lord Grenville, but Mr. Addington made head
etre:hest it for upwards of a year. A change then took place, but
hadhis friends stood by Mr. Addington hemight have been Prhne
. • Minister at that very moment. It happened, however, that'
• While Mr. Fox was out of office phrases were bestowed upon
him,uccusing him almost of actual rebellion. It was hope-
less Sfor Mr. Fox to attempt: to make head against the
• .3,liaistere but in 1806 a neyilight broke in upon the Houle of
. Commons. Mr. Fox came into office, and a man's coming into
office was a. circumstance, which the House was almost most'
• careful in observing. Nothing was viewed with more anxious
• eves than the conduct of a'Man the day before and his conduct
tile day after his becoining a Minister. The moment the
• Gariente announced-this fact there was a change in, the vision
and understanding of the House. In March 1806, the House
had no•objection to Mr. Fox or his principles; and itfollowed
' in the same numerical force in which it had followed his
political opponent. The,; House refused to censure the ap-
pointment of Lord Ellenborough to a seat in the Cabinet, a
measure of which he had expressed his disapprobation at the
time, though he mentioned this merely to shew that he did not
,notice the circumstance for the mere purpose of his argument.
The House, however, was an animal of much foresight, and
particularly celebrated for its obduracy against all men not
in the enjoyment of office. For the Resolution of Censure
hi question only sixty-five voted against Mr. Fox, a re-
ierkable number; for it was about that which had voted
with him just before his entry into office. His being in
office turned: the tables upon his adversaries t and upon this
pinching
i test 222 voted with him. He should be much in-
terested n hearing any explanation of these votes; but at
presenehe could come to leht one conclusion respecting them.-
- Having noticed the conduct- of a Parliament formed under
Tory auspices, he came to consider that of the Whig Parlia-
ment of 1806. In the interim there had been a greatchange ;
apurgation, as it was formerly called ; and he confessed that he
thought the jotter was worse than the former Parliament. A
difference of f,pinion had been strongly expressed at the
beginning -of the new Whig Session, and had been strongly
nes expressed by a Right Honourable Member (Mr. Canning) who
particularly condemned the administration of foreign affairs.
The new Oppositimi, however, felt themselves too weak to
divide, and they would not therefore expose their weakness.—
The Army Estimates, Sir Samuel Romilly's Bill for reforming
fi the Law,'nd other measures passed without any numerical,
trial ; but in the course of the next spring, on the question of the'
'Hampshire Petition, the new Opposition thought that flesh and
blood could bear it no longer, and they determined manfully to
come to the vote, though they knew it would expose their
weakness. • The numbers were 134 to 57; and after this, they
• were very slow at dividing. The 12th of March of that year
wean criticalday, and he begged the House to bear it in re-
collection ; there had been rumours abroad, and the Member,'
were on the 100k-out; they thought all was 'not right, and
that it was much better for them to remain quiet, and hold a
snug sail, lest they should fall in with quicksands. There had
been birds of bad omen in the House. It was thought, not that
-- something was not as it should be (for diet was never cared
about,) but something not as it had been. The... Members were
plain matter-of-fact men.; and in deciding upon the conduct of
others, the only question was--'Are they, or are they not, in
-office ?" In this most interesting state of speculation, Members
• had a tendency to absent themselves; and it was surprising to
End the many calls into the country which were alleged in ex-
cuse for that abseuce. There were journies for health, journies
to see near and dear relatives, and an observance of all those
ties which bound inen at home when they had no wish to be
abroad. At length a remarkable ifaragraph appeared in the
Gazette. The House immediately took observation, the 57
became suddenly expanded to 158 ; and upon the question
whether the late Ministry were deserving of confidence, the
HOuse, in substance, declared, that it never liked them—was
glad 'they were turned out—was delighted with his Majesty
• for having turned them out : and yet, had they been re-
• stored, there would, no doubt, have been the same cautious
.observation—the same slack ifttendance—and the same pour-
ing in in scores afterwards.. They had eulogized 'Lords
fey and Grenville—had rejoiced at their dismissal—and yet
would eulogize them again' to-morrow, if they should be re-
- stored to office. Not that he meant to say that this exten-
sive influence was confined to the walls of that House. He
-.would proceed to shew its effcts in other instances, and he
would proceed to notice; nota low Corporation, but a grave,
venerable,. and Learned Body,
_which dispensed in a great de-
er-en the' blessings :of 'education. He alluded to the Learned
e'liiiiiseeisity of Oxford, It had shewn a great alacrity in the
speciead observation he had mentioned ; and had long since
washed away its political sins,(if any it ever had) man attach-
ment to the -exiled 'family of the Stuarts. That for which he
MostadmirFd _them was, their election of.- 'Ord Grenville to the
-office Of Gialleilior of :the-University e.but this election took
*heti 'it was thought he Was; about to enter office, when
a correspondence had, taken. place between him and Govern-
. merit with a view to his foniiing part, of the Administration.
ertite-learned body had its eyes updh this circumstance; but the
usual course seas to wait- for =the Gezette.-o(A laugh.)—The
learned body was sorely mistaken in its calculation,, for the
Noble Lnrd had- continued Oat of office ever since. The con-
duct of this learned bodyswith reference' to the Catholic ques-
tion was no less remarkable. Mr. Perceval declared the mea-
sure then- proposed to be a dangerous measure. The Univer-
sity petitioned against it. A flame in cOnsequence was raised
in the country, and its peace was endangered by those,. who,
for a mere political purpose, raised an irreligious, unchristian,
arid brutal cry of aNo Popery." That cry was raised dis-
-honestly and inhumanly; for he would maintain that not one
out of one hundred conscientiously:opposed it. But that out-
' cry served the purpose of transplanting the Ministers of that
day, and of replacing the authors of it firmly in their situa-
tions. Notwithstanding all that, in the course of ten years
after a large majority was found in both houses of Parliament
to admit Catholics to every rank and situation in the army and
navy. A Bill was introduced for that purpose, and Supported
by those very Ministers, and; their friends and adherents, and
- passed through both Houses of Parliament, without being op-
yenned by one spiritual Peer. Yet those were the very men
who some years before were ready to swear, that the ad-
usission of Catholics to one place of rank, trust, or emolument,
n t;te army or navy, would endanger the -peace of the
country. Those were the very men, who, by raising the
brutal cry of." No Popery," overthrew the Government at a
period of considerable danger from abroad, and of no less
difficulty and embarrassment at home. Not• a voice, how-
ever, was raised by any of those wren against a measure
welch they had -once made the instrument of producing so
much alarm. The course of his obsAvations had now led
him to another point, which exceeded all others. He alluded
to the Walcheren party, and to the Administration which
was called together by the "No Popery" cry. He would
exhaust the patience of the House if he were to do more
thin- to allude 'briefly to Acts of the Parliament under the
;guidance of that Administration. They had plunged this
country in a war with America. They had raised the Regency
• question, and opposed all the claims of the Regent, and that
bYlazge and successful majorities, while there was any pros-
peen of the King's recovery: But when no hopes any longer
remained of the King's recovery,. the majorities against an ex-
el melon of the power, and removing the restrictions of the Re-
gent, were not so great. The minozeties grew more respectable
on every diccassion, and the majorities were growing less, just
in proportion as the hopes of the King's recovery were less pro-
in'Ssing., The House then took another observation--(He.en,
and cheers)—aid finding' the King's recovery hopeless, con-
curred in removing the restrictions before put on the Regent.
'There was, besides, the circumstance of a King de facto in
the person of the Regent,, who, in the course of nature,
and, in all probability, would soon be a King de jure. The
Morse then cast up the claims anew, and resolved that they
ought not to incur thb displeasure of the future Sovereign for
an iv:Certain period, by *any resistance during the short life
of the King. The majorities were still against the Regent;
but were not so great as on common Ministerial questions;
and they preferred the next year taconfer additional powers by
ltill rather than by Address. Then followed the Copenhagen
expedition. The Honourable. and ' Learned Gentleman next
adverted to the conduct of the House relative to the Conven- 1
tion Of Cintra; and in the year 1812, when in the short pe-
ria of, three weeks the House voted an
._ Address to .the
Crown for the nomination of a more efficient Ministry, and
•at the moment their calcillationa came to an end, and it
appeared evident that the Crown was determined to return
the Ministers, they voted another Address, with a majority
of 100, bestowing their confidence in the same Ministers, and
thanking the Crown for retaining therm • After having pointed
their attention to the decisions of Parliament with regard
4a the Walchere.n expedition, and the question of- the
Regency, he thought it of little consequence to advert to
many other instances of the inconsistency of the ,house on
minor 'questions. Greatly as the country had to complain of
the conduct of the present Parliament in the course of 'the
present and last Session, yet all they could do could not •
equal those two cases. In the one case the Parliament had
•voted h Resolution of Thanks to those men who planned the
-expedition to, Walcheren, by which the money and the lives of
.the people were so lavishly squandered. The second case was
that .decision on the subject of the currency, the inexpediency
4' which was now, be believed, placed beyond all doubt. Al-
though the present Parliament had fallen short of those cases,
.still therewas enough in the
_retrospect, and he would state

two cases which, although not 'equal to the Walcheren and
the Currency cases, yet might be equal to the decisions of 1803
and 1806. In the last Session the Hon. Member for Essex
brought a proposition before the House for the reduction of
the Malt Tax. The 'Resolution was carried by amajority, heed-
less perhaps what little benefit they would confer on the country
generally by,the reduction of that tax. But they resblved for the
reduction of the fax ; when the Noble Lord opposite cautioned
them not to." halloo until they were out of the wood." The
Noble Lord, therefore, put in motion that instrument called
the whip, that never-failing threat, whereby, in the courge of
a few days, the former majority for the reduction was convert-
ed into a majority of fifty for reversing the former resolution.
In 1820, he (Mr. Brougham) had obtained the assent of the
House td a proposition in favour of the Agricultural Interests
against the Noble Lord. He ought not perhaps to state those
surmises which have gone abroad, but it was the general
opinion that some communication was made, that if one other
division similar to that had occurred, the Ministers would re-
sign.--( Hear, hear !)—lle himself, with his eyes open, had seen
some of those Members • who before voted for his proposition,
onthe next discussion of the• same proposition, dividing with
the Noble Lord against their' own Resolution. Although he
could not say with Mr.. Dunning that fifty voted against their
former votes, yet he was quite confident very many of them
did so. On a late occasion the Right Hon. Member for Liver-
pool (Mr. Canning) had proposed an additional clause in the
Noble Lord's Corn Importation Bill. The Noble Lord gave
that clause no opposition when it was proposed.—(The Marquis
(* Londonderry here said, quite the contrary, and that he never
voted for the clause.)—He understood then that the Noble
Lord Toted. for the clause on the first night, but the Noble
Lord came down the succeeding night and negatived that very
clause. • But what did he (Mr. Brougham) aim at by the
enumeration of those instances? The result -at which
he arrived went to show, most clearly and unequivocally, that
such was the nature and operation of the overgrown influence of
the Executive Government, that whomsoever was appointed Mi-
nister by the King, that person was sure to command the majori-
ties in that House. Nine out of ten of the most interesting ques-
tions discussed in that House were carried by majorities com-
manded by the Minister, `independent of the merits of the ques-
tions themselves. Thosemajorities were commanded by obtain-
in favours for friends and relations; by conferring civilities on
adherents, and by doing offices of kindness, all which did not ex-
actly amount to the possession of office, but which amounted to as
great and absolute a disqualification for discharging properly the
office of a Member of Parliament, as it' they actually possessed
office. Finding that to be the case under all Administrations, of
any, complexion or policy, and believingit not only expedient, but
necessary to remedy the abuses which result from such a system,
he, on those grounds which he had stated, had prepared .a
Resolution to submit to the consideration of the -House. If the
House would pledge themselves to the Resolution, he would
afterwards follow it up by some remedial measures. He would
remind the House that there were some instances in which the
people out of doors had. first set the example of a correct notion
of things, in which the Parliament followed, though after
a long interval. Who in that House could deny that the public
voice would at length prevail ? As long as the people were
in the enjoyment of Constitutional liberty—as long as a free
press remained in the country—as long as there was an in-
dependent Bench, and an uncorrupted Bar, and While the
doozs of that House were thrown open to the public, and the
people were made acquainted through the public press with
the proceedings in that House, however unfaithful to the Con-
stitution the Members of that House might sometimes act, yet
they knew they could not lose their Constitutional independence.
As long as the press was permitted to give publicity to the pro-
ceedings of that House, to communicate the sentiment's of
the people, and-to distuss and comment on public questions, it
was in vain to deny that the public voice would not at length
find entrance inside the iralls of that house. But what he
complained of was,_ that the mischief was never acknowledged
until twenty or thirty years after it was known to exist, but
was continued to be done while the Parliament reposed confi-
dence in the Minister, and assented to no proposition until re-
commended by him. He complained of the incoincidence of
the time in which the expediency of a measure was felt in that
House and outside of it. They never waked from their le-
thargic repose until the rec. poprtli disturbed it. At length,
however, the voice of the people from without made itself
heard. He instanced, in the case of the Slave Trade, that the
groans of humanity had not, till after a long time, reached
that House, and a lapse of thirty years were required to pro-
duce that effect, which a Reformed Parliament—(Hear, hear
and cheers)—would have done in as many months. The
question of the Slave Trade was an illustration of the power
and influence of the Minister. Every thing was favourable
to that great cause except that the Minister did not come
.down and make it a Cabinet question, which would at
once have insured its success. In the year 1805, that
question was proposed, and the Bill for the Abolition of
the Slave Trade thrown out by a great majority. But in
the next year, when Mr, Fox was •- Minister, that great
, man came down, and in
.his place; in Parliament proposed'his
measure for the abolition of the trade, and the ResolutiOn :was
carried by a majority of ren. The question at length was
finally carried by a majority of, 266 to 16, although some few
years before there was as great is majority against it. The
Noble Lordcould not, et till times, put into use his threat of going
• out of office day after day, in case-any proposition was carried
against him. It was the duty of the House to look to the change
of sentiment out of doers, to regard the disposition of the great
mass of the people, and to do their duty towards the country.a-.
The best way to consult the public feeling was to reducothe ex-
peces of the establishments as much as possible, and after that
to effect a -Reform in Parliament, and to bring the people as near
them as possible. The effect of the prescaL overgrown esta-
blishments was to detach the great mass of the people, and
to remove them farther from their reprentatives ; but they
would be brought back if a Reform had taken place in Par-
liament. That would be the effect of the House's pledging
itself to the Resolution which •he would • propose for their
adoption. His object was to bring the Parliament nearer to
the people. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded, by,
proposing the following. Resolution :—" That the influence
now possessed by the Crown was unnecessary to the maim,
tenance of a constitutional prerogative, was destructive of the
independence of Parliament, and inconsistent with a wellej
governed State."

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he had to bespeak
the favourable indulgence of the House, while he as shortly
as possible followed the course of argument taken by the
Honourable and 'Learned Gentleman. The proposition of
the Honourable and Learned Member appeared to be founded
in a great measure on a calculation of the public expendi-
ture ;—and if he could indece the House to sustain his pro-
position, he intended, it seemed, to advance a measure
the nature of which he (the Marquis) could not collect from
the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, until he had
kindly disclosed it at the end. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had declared his intention to propose a Reform of the Par-
liament. Now, he had no objection in the world to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman's attempting to reform the Parlia-
ment.. It had been attempted before in the course of the pre-
sent Session, and undoubtedly the Hon. and Learned Member
had a right, if he pleased, to return to the charge t but he
ought not to do this under cover of diminishing the influence of
the Crown. He was happy to assure the House that he could
join issue with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to most of
the facts he had advanced in support of his arguments. lie
should not enter into the motive of any individual Member
of Parliament; but he denied, in the outset, it was of the cor-
rupt 'nature attributed to it by the Hon. avid Learned Gentle-
man. He believed that the influence of the Crown gave strength
to the opinion of large &dim At the same time he admitted
that that influence had at times been, excessive, and that the mea-
sures which, as appeared by history, had at various times been
brought forward to restrain ite had been constructed on prin-
ciples of sound and good legislation ; and he hoped the same
degree of vigilance would continue to be observed towards that
influence;' and if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made
out a case of the existence of influence inconsistent with the
liberties of Parliament, it would be their duty to take imme-
diate steps-to check_ the growth of it. - But he had no right to
argue as lie_had done, by asserting that the influence of the
Crown was great, end assuming, therefore, thatehere should
be a. Reform in Tarliameet. That was the real object of his
motion; for he had distinctlyetated that it was to a reformed
Parliament that they were to look for a remedy to all the evils
of the last twenty years. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
drew a comparison betwixt the extent of the influence of, the
Crown in 1780, when the Parliament voted that it was excessive;
and after endeavouring to make it appear that that influence
had increased since that period, came to a conclusion that it
was excessive now. His mode of making the comparison, how-
ever, was , not a fair one, by taking the amount of the revenue
in the gross, and the comparative numbers of the Army and
Navy. That was not treating the question upon its own basis,
not coming so much to close quarters, as he could have wished.
The narrower basis wasetheextent,of the infra ;MCC of the Crown
in Parliament. But taking the extent of the revenue in time of,
war was by no means an equitable way; and he must, here say
that he found a spirit of exaggeration run through the whole of
the Hon. and Learned Gentieman's statement upon this occae
sion. All his figures were augmented beyond their fair arid
real amount, end all his extracts distorted in a manner that
it would ill become the House to allow itself to come to a con-
clusion upon, in a matter pregnant with such deep importance
and danger. For instance, he stated, the revenue and expen-
diture for the present year at 28,000,000, whereas it was only-
-18,000,000. In the same way, he quoted the Army at 33,000 in
1780, whereas the influence of the Crown spread over 60,000,
independent of the establishment at home. But when the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman compared the extent
of the influence of the Crown ,at these two periods, would
he also compare the state of the country ? Would he cora-

pare the population , at' present with what it was in 1730 ;
the difference in point of wealth, and the difference in
the state of the public mind' after it had been broken in
upon by al/ the dangermas and fatal doctrines, which from
the time of the French Revolution, up to the present pe-
riod, had, come forth to disturb the peace of the world ?—(Hear.)
In adverting to the comparative strength of the army anti navy,
the Hon. and ,Learned Gentlenian stated the number of 27,000
as being under the influence of the Crown ,in the half-pay
alone, and then asked theinhoi it was possible to resist
this. In the first place he must say, that he was here, as in
most of his calculations, (mite .at a loss to conceive where the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman riunibersTrom.
But he asked, was this numerical kind of argument a fair
way of. treating the-question? Ought not rather the basis of
the argument to be the spirit in which this amount of influ-
ence was_ administered ? The Army he was sure was ad-
ministered upon principles as free from any imputation of party
favour as it was possible; and he appealed to many Hon.
Members qn the Opposition Benches whether they were not
treated, both at the Horse Guards and the Admiralty; with
asemuch candour and liberality 'as though they always voted
with his Majesty's Ministers.—(Cheers.)—They had already
discussed the two services in point of amount, and he chal-
lenged any one to make out a case of abuse in the employ-
' ment of the power they afforded to the Crowii. H The on.
and Learned' Gentleman next went to the Colonies, and stated ,
the increase .of offices in that department of influence at 800.—
Where he got his materials from; he (the Marquis of London-
derry) did not know ; but although he was not prepared to go
into detail for the information of the House, he would un-
dertake to say, that if returns on that subject were laid before
the House, they would find, that he had doubled the number
from what it actually was. He supposed he had treated as
Offices under the. Crown all the offices in the Colonies, and
even then to make good his numbershe must have had recourse
to the most meriitel offices. He had got a statement of how this
matter stood in our of. the
.principal Colonies, from which it
appeared that seven-eighths of the . whole. appointments that
had been filled up by native servants, were appointed by the
Colonial Government.—(Hear, hear, hear!)—ln some there
were not more than three or four, and in none more than
seven or eight offices under the appointment of the Crown
at all.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—lt would have been but fair in
the Honourable and. Learned Gentleman, in considering thi,
part of the case, toe have given Government credit for what
they had done to diminish the influence of the Crown in
the Colonies: If he had acted with as much candour, he
would have had to inform the House of their abolition of nu-
merous patent offices compatible with seats in that House.—
(Hear, hear !)-4Accortling to the existing regulations, no of-
fices could be held by persons who did not go out themselves
to the Colonies; and in that particular the whole influence of
the Crown had been changed and subverted.—( Hear !)—The
law which had wrought -this change not. only divested the
Crown of the power over twenty-nine officers for political pur-
poses, but it absolutely; turned out twenty-nine persons from
that House. He must next follow the Honourable Gentle-
man to the East Indies; and upon that part of the statement
he could merely observe, in the absence of details, that when
he belonged to that department of the State, it would have
been considered a year of extraordinary harvest, had any such
amount of patronage as helad stated occurred. The third of
what he had stated would be nearer the truth ; and then it was
to be considered that this patronage was granted by the Com-
pany as matter of grace and favour to the Board of Controul;
and not to the Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man stated, that the charge of collecting the revenue of fifty
millions was four milliorts'at first; whereas in 1780 it was only
one million. In Order to place this part of the question in
its true light, it was, necessary to look at the comparative
numbers employed, with the amount collected. He held in
his hand an account of this nature, for the Customs of the year
1797; as compared with that of 1821, and lie should have taken
his information from 1792, being the more usual year of refe-
rence, were it not that the records for that year had been burnt.
In the year 1797, it appeared that the number of officers em-
ployed for the Custom Revenue was 5,723. The number em-
ployed last year, 1821, was 8,364 persons. Thus the increase
was less than 1,000, and the diflerence in the amount of re-
venue collected was between 11,505,0001. for the latter year,
and 6,000,0091. for the former.---(flear, hear!)—The amount
collected, therefore, was double, and the number employed
for that purpose had increased only one-seventh. An increase
of one-third had taken place in the salaries, but that was
principally owing to a commutation which had been made
for fees,' but the influence of the Crown had, in no way
been swelled by that. It was much the same in the Excise.—
In 1792 the number of officers was 4,693; for the year 1821 it
was 5,665. The salaries in the former year were 318,0001., in
the latter 633,0601., having doubled in amount from the same
cause as he had stated to operate in the Customs. The reve-
nue in the two. cases was 8,120,0001. and .24,64714 shew-
ing the increase in the number of persons employed at less
than 10001,' with an augmentation in the revenue of 18,000,0001.
sterling. He next Cale to the, taxes, which gave a difference,
of from 3,500,0001., as they',were in 1792, and 7,400,00 W. as at
present. The number of Officers for the former period was
two hundred and twenty, and for the latter two hundred and
eighty-seven. In the Stamps the difference was from 3,400,0001.,
to &,100,0001., and the number of perions employed was now
exactly the same as then, viz. 24. Thus he was sure it must be.
obvious that the whole regulations of the service, so far from
being fraMed to encourage patronage, shewed that the authors
of them were in search of a principle of sound financial admi-
nistration of the resources of tile country. In the Customs
there were certain, regulations es to age observed with regard
to all persons admitted, and their promotion took place ,ac-
cording to merit and previous examination. The lion. and
Learned Gentleman said that the Treasury had extended its
grasping arms into every department of the State, and he par-
ticularised the Excise. Now he defied him to make out this
assertion, and he protested against any such being received by
the House. The Board of Excise had as complete controul over
their department now as at any former period, and every, thing
relating to that department shewed the reverse of any principle
that arrived at patronage. Vie most curious part of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman's cage was where he attempted to esta-
blish the existence of great Crown influence from thirty mil-
lions paid to the public creditor. In order to assist his argu-
menehere, he was obliged to have recourse to the Exchequer
processes, upon which he had raised a very learned laiv argu-
ment, no doubt, but the bearing of which on the question he
hoped he should be excused for saying be could not at all une
derstand. lie believed, in pciat of fact, that so far from 'the'
Exchequer processes being increased during the period he had
alluded to, the taxes had been collected throughout a period of
great and general .distress with less recurrence to legal pro-
cesses for the last two years, and. particidarly this year, than
at any other known time. It was impossible for him to go into
the instances quoted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
which, after all; applied more to, the severity of the law,
than to the question before them ; but he must say, that if he
wished to derive any benefit from that part of his argument,
built upon a supposed mistaken increase in the number of
Exchequer processes, he must thoroughly revise it. The next
point of attack was the—iriflitenee .in Parliament from the
number of the officers of the Crown. The lion. and Learned
Gentleman here stated that the number of placemen in Par-
liament at present Was eiglity. Hero again lie must observe,
that he must be in possession of more materials fbr calculation
than he (the Marquis oflondonderry) had access to, as he found
himself quite unable to keep.' pace with him. He had however

taken great pains to inforiW liiinialf.on this subject, and the
result of his investigation was, that there were not more
than 47 or. 48 perions in that House who held offices under
the Crown, that could-in any sense be said to. give the Crown
any influence over them. Indeed;: he thought the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman must have :drawn largely on the stores of
placcmen around him, to be able at all to make out his num-
bers. He thoUght that he must have included the Hon. Mbrn-
her from Caine' and the llon.•7viember for Bath,. and also the
Hon. Member for Peterborough must have been paraded on
the occasion. But upon reviewing these troops, if they must
be mustered, he thought they did not savour much of ;hat ruin
ous influence-of the Crown which was represented as bearing
clown all before' it., He was ready to admit that constitu-
tional jealousy might very Properly, be entertained towards a
number of persons.. acting, together, who were very, likely-. to
be actuated by a feeling in favour oldie course of politics pur-
sued by each other. - He had never complained of such a
jealousy being felt, but he complained that the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman should argue, that every thing in,the.
House, except the Officers of the Crown, was deserving of
the utmost stretch of confidence. He complained of the
assumption, though perhaps- the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman did nor claim that,for himself, of exclusive puiity
in the Hon. Members on the other side of the house. But as
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made such attacks upon
the Parliament, the•best way would be to look at the conduct
of Parliament from the very period which he chose as his pe-
riod for comparison; the year 1780. Looking at that conduct,
he asked, whether it had not been actuated by, a principle to•
restrain the influence of the Crown in every point .which could
be construed as capable, of corrupt influence, and of placing
-
the influence of the Crown upon a narrower footing even in Par-
liament itself ? The Noble Marquis proceeded to take a review of
the different Acts for the abridgement of the influence of. the
Crown, since the year 1780. He directed the attention of the
House to the exertions of Mr. Pitt in tnaking the loans for Go-
vernment subjects of open competition. In the giving Up much
powerful means of rewarding, his own creatures; the Minister
of that day Could scarcely he supposed to have been actuated
by any desire of patronage. That, as well as other instances,
furnished proofs of large and signal restrictions of the influ-
ence on the Crown imposed by the Parliament, so much the
object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's revilings. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had mis-stated the late Mr. Rose

in making him say that Mr. Pitt had reduced four or five bun-
tired officers, and created fifteen hundred. He said no such
thing; but on the contrary that 480 had been reduced and
200 odd created. Mr. Pitt, in 1804, abolished 196 offices,
amounting to 42,0001. a year, all of which being sinecures of
three, four, and five hundred a year, were those of which a
Minister desirous of retaining patronage would be most loth to
part with. 'nue. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alleged
that the increase of offices was proportionate with the increase
in the revenue; but it was found not to be so. He had made
similar mistakes in the other parts of his statement. But look-
ing at what he had atatesl, and at the conduct of Government
since the Peace, he thought there would be found a sufficient
answer to that part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's ar-
gument which was intended' to prove that Parliament was dis-
qualified from the discharge of its functions. He had not yet
shewn to the House in one point of view all the reductions
which had been made in Offices since the Peace. He had'
early in the Session shewn that a saving 'of 150,0001. had been
made in such reductions, in consequence of the Address to the
Crown at the end of the last Session. But, exclusive of that,
between the closing of the last war and the Address of last
year, without any call from the house, Government had made
an investigation into the different departments of the State,
the result of which was, that 1699 Officers had been reduced,
and offices suppressed, creating a saving of 360,0001.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—exclusive of the 150,0001 before stated. By the
Bill of the Honourable Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes),
with those already stated, that 2012 persons, had been dismis-
sed, making a saving of 730,0001. exclusive of that last year.
This chewed that there had been no indisposition on the part
of his Majesty's Government ao push the principle of reduc-
tion of the influence of the Crown to every commendable extent.
And at this period an inquiry was going on into every Depart-
ment of public service with a view to reduction, by Commis-
sioners appointed Isy Parliament. Having therefore shewn
that every step had been taken that could consistently be
taken, and that the' principle was still in progress. to dimi-
nish the extent of Government patronage; unless it was. the
intention of the Honourable and Learned, Gentleman to contend
that the patronage of-the public officers should be taken out of
the hands of Government, .and vested in sonic other'quarter, he
thought he had no foUndatiou on which to rest his motion. But
the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman had-not -directed his shafts
against Government alone, he had reviled the Parliament, and
that Parliament, which had saved, not this country alone, but
the world, was now to be degraded by coining to such a vote
as he had proposed to them.—(Hear, hear !)—lf he had no
better means of attacking the conduct Of Parliament than by al-
leging.that h one night agreed to a Bill for the repeal of the
i'lalt Tax, hnd next night rejected its he had better leave it
alone. For unless he meant to say, that a full House teas to
be subordinate and ofless importance than a thin one, and that
all the apparatus of passing a Bill in that House, the different
stages of which were intended to guard against surprise, ma-
nagement, and neglect or ignorance, had better be dispensed
with, his argument was good for nothing. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman said it was odd that that House should al-
ways support the Minister of the day. If the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman would spew them how a-Minister was to
go on without the support of the House, he would assist him
in return to a solution of the enigma of a House of Commons
always supporting the Ministers. It was that Parliament had'
always opposed itself to those revolutionary principles which
were aimed' to sweep all the institutions of the earth before
them, and cause one universal destruction and disunion of the
interests and elements of society. It had saved this coun-
try from a foreign enemy, and protected it against an infa-
tuated party at home. 'throughout the whole of the late
eventful reign, in which was involved all that was dear to the
liberties of this country and of the world, it had maintained
one steady march. The Parliament had supported the Crown
in all it had done, and it was 'not the gloomy forebodings of
the lion. Gentleman, nor his open and indirect efforts, that had
been able to arrest its progress in its wise and magnanimous
course. Yet notwithstanding that it had conducted them
through a time of eventful and unexampled peril, the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman stated that was not qualified to conduct
the affairs of the nation. It' ha saved the character of. the
country, and he would never stand by and see it degrade itself
by such a vote as that proposed by the Hon and Learned Gen-
tleman. He called upon the House not to countenance this
covert motion for Reform. He warned them that that was the
object of it; and that the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man would never be contented with the Bill for abolishing
the petty offices he had talked of, -nor by the removal of the
Members of that House alluded to by him. If they granted
him that motion, he would soon come to them again and tell
them that he should be unworthy the confidence placed in him
by the House, if he did not tell them that nothing in conform-
ance with the Resolution for diminishing the influence of the
Crown could be done, whilst that great nuisance, Parliament
itself, continued to exist. He would call upon them to be true
to themselves,, and accomplish a Reform in Parliament, the
basis of which was laid in his Resolution. It was not the in-
fluence of the Crown that he aimed at. .14 was indirectly at-
tempting to sap' the foundation of Parliament; well knowing
that if Parliament could be brought to stigmatize its own cha-
racter, it would not be long before hetouldachieve its destruc-
aion.—(Hear, hear!)—These were the grounds upon which he
hoped the House would pass to the Order of the Day, and give
no countenance to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tlernan.—(Cheering.)
The Hon. G. BENNET said, after the able speech of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Brougham), and also-of the able speech of the Noble
Marquis, there were still some points on which he begged leave
to address the House. Ile felt that the influence of the Crown
was too strong for the interests of the people. The influence of
the Crown increased with the increase of the revenue, just in
the same proportion as it would -do in the affairs of individuals.
Near twenty thousand civil officers were under the influence of
the Crown, not properly selected, as stated by the Noble Lord.
There were hundreds who could tell from what unworthy motives
many of those persons, were app,einted. He himself could tell
instances, particularly in the Post-office, where the whole pa-
tronage was in the hands of the Postmasters-General—in the
year 1780. Now, however, it was altogether wider the control
of the Treasury. The same thin occurred in the Stan -office.
There were more than 9000 persons employed in the Customs
and Excise ; in fact, there was a standing army of those persons,
nearly equal in amount to the armyiwhich fought our battles in
the better timesof our history. The same bitter spirit might not
operate on the Government as it did in former times ; but, still
he, could chew, since 1793, that 989 officers were dismissed from
the army. That then became of the idle talk, that the Crown
exercised no undue 'discretion or patronage in the army ? In the-
collection of theCustonts there was an advance of nearly 3 per
cent. ; and did that afford no means, of patronage ? -There
were besides 87 persons in the House having salaries to the'
amount of 160,0001. a-year, and 73 Peers in the army and navy:
With respeciAnthe Church, the influence was inn sense; and
in England a: }le (not speaking ,of Ireland, where the largest,
sums were paid for doing nothing) there were two Archbishops,
24 Bishops, many Deans and Prebends, and above 1000 Livings!
Was such a patronage nothing- ? 'then, let the House look at,
the persons brought out of this House into the HouSe of Peers'
as bribes for their support of the Government. In 1780, the.
total number was 225 ; now it was 378. The increase, how-
ever, particularly took place in the Batons. In 1760 there was
one Marquis ; now there were 18. In 1780 there were 78 Earls;
now there were 101). But to the increase in the Barons he
begged to call the particular attention of the House. In 1780
Om were f 35, and now there were 1421 It was the influence
of these persons in the House. and tneir support of Ministers,
which gave them this step. The Noble Lord concluded with
a panegyric, on the late Parliament; but litele could be said of
that, Parliament Ohich Ultimately fill by its own imbecility ;
although the- Crown had so long stood by it—although it was
opposed by such men as Pitt, 'Fox, and I.,heridan, by, a Whit.
bread and a Romilly--a Parliament as imbecile and as den

gerous as ever existed in this tountry. When the situation of
the country, at present, was compared with that of 1792, he
was wlling to try the question' by. the effect of that comparison.
'There. were two means of reforming the state of things • the
first was, by turning out of the House those placemen who, to
use the language of cur ancestors, held livery of the Crown ;
And the second was, by reforming the mode of Govermhent.—
(Hear, hear!))
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that if the Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite could convince him that the House of Commons had
erred to the extent they had stated, he would , immediately be-
come a reformer. But he thought the Honourable and Learn-
ed Gentleman, in tracing the history of the House of Com-
mons for the last twenty years, bad arraigned the House on
false grounds. He (Mr. Wortley) had been a. Member of the
House during that period, and he would follow the Learned
Gentleman through it. It was worthy of, remark' that the
motion of the Honourable Member, though it complaint(' of
an undue influence, yet pointed out no plan for reducing that
influence, except by Parliamentary Reform. Now he was
willing to meet the Honourable Gentleman on that ground,
for he did not think Reform necessary.—(Hear, hear !)—But
to come tq closer quarters. .The Honourable Gentleman had
first-referred to the period when Mr. Pitt resigned and Mr.
Addington took office. The statement of the Hon. Gentleman
had been true, but his inferences false. The House of Com-
_

mons had supported both these Gentlemen, because they had
given no reason for withdrawing their confidence whilst
Ministers. The next-occasion was the accession of Mr.-Fox
to office. At Mr. Pitt's death the Government had fallen

naturally into Mr. Fox's hand. The latter had been the
leader of a powerful party, and he thought . that it would
not have given Mr. Fox fair play had he not succeeded
his rival. He agreed with the Honourable Member .in his
censure on the admission of Lord Ellenborough into the
Cabinet, although he wondered that such a remark should come
from the other side. He would pass over some of the votes of
the House to which the Hon. and Learned Member had re.

• 3tl was
ftheleredmothstednlifi
d to
participated in that vote; and if any blame was to be attache,,lon
andcult
tocomdeefeantdo,nvciez.ttohtehlaif,awihichcehrelnieexcopnefdiessti
it, he must also participate in the censure. But he catte,",'ibe
the House to consider the circumstances under wine' oil
nation then laboured. The country had then been c solar
l
in a war with France ; they would recollect what the solo
ing of the people had been with regard to the Pea% die
war, and certainly there had been a waht of confidence ileo.
Gentlemen opposite, arising from the opinions of those" Ilea
Gentlemen respecting that war. The Gentlemen opposite but
exulted openly in the failure of the Walcheren expedition.; jo
they had regarded that failure merely as the means of theiro,,
bt n"
advancement to power. The House had therefore therefore'
in giving its vote, to consider its certain effect, and, thtbose
though the expedition might be wrong,,yet the motives 01 „,er,
Members who had supported the Ministers might 11314 bee
fectly right. In reviewing the votes of the present
the Honourable Member had alluded to the Malt 14pia
He thought that allusion was somewhat extraordinary' the
• ea by
the Hon. al ember imagine that the first opinion express the
House was always to he decisive of their sentiments ? In the
Malt Tax the House had been taken by surprise, and he Oa_ the
that the second vote had been regarded by the people
oiso
deliberate sense of the House. The Hon. Member bac' the
alluded to the part which he (Mr. S. W.) had acted ottib
of
tleath of Mr. Perceval.' He had then considered the dead the
Mr. Perceval as the death-blow of the Administration, and
majority of that House had concurred in that opinion•
der of
had been the consequence ? The persons applied to by °r old
his Majesty had been opposed to those so power; °11::PrIS,
remember the unreasonable proposition made by those Pie
and the consequence had been that the country had bechad
tired of the uncertainty in which it had been left, A e
the
thoughtion better
thatnone.
a s c
long ould tithldeisa
rassat-
tinned to flatter the undue prejudices of the people, the
c.
part of the community would never give them that de..r_.,"
of confidence which would place them in the Govertimen,t f
Those. Hon. Gentlemen assumed a great deal on the chantl{:•
the tone of public opinion on the subject of ParliamentarY der.
form. He allowed that the temper of the public had eathet
gone a change ; but he thought that a sure remedy 00 Ile
head would be found in patient and temperate discussion• or
was sure that the more the subjeet was -discussed the gwe it
would the good sense of the country return ; and the, in :drat
would be seen that the safety of the nation was not dept
on a Reform in that House.—(Hear
pealed
Mr. PEEL, amidst a loud cry for the "Question," aP
bich
to the feelings of the Gentlemen opposite (those feelings w
they must experience when they heard their constituents fras
represented) as justification for rising to address a few ,*boy..
to the House. He laboured under the disadvantage of Pt abe
ing heard the Honourable and Learned Gentleman vi“e--t to
used the expression to which he (Mr. reel) was now 31°104
allude; but he understood that that Hon. Gentleman or,
made somereference to that distinguished body which he lion.
Peel) had the honour to represent. He understood that the: Est
Gentleman, on illustrating the power of the Crown out °' f the
House, had cast some imputations upon the conduct O. of
University of Oxford. Now he thought that if any boaltvo
persons in the kingdom was free from such an imputation, !t
the University of Oxford. With regard to the sPe,cil,cd, it
stances to which the Hon. and Learned Gent. had ahltrarTh tea
appeared to him that he had not been sufficiently we"-, had
in the inferences which he had drawn. The Hon. Gen" of
found fault with the election of Lord Grenville to the officeho
Chancellor of the University at a particular period, ond,tie aif-
complained that the conduct of the University in 1817 "7„,gued
fered on the Catholic question from that which had been Pu'"ioe,
in 1807. Now, with regard to the election of Lord Orenv Tin-
he would only call upon the House to consider the public Pawl
ciples of that Nobleman—his attachment
-to the Ecclesias-
interests—his uniform line of conduct in opposition to those
ciples which signalized the beginning of the late war--an then
character in the University as an eminent scholar—ate oc-
he would ask them, whether it was possible that any rhea
favourable to the motives of the University could be in ;'"tioo
from his election ? And when they also'considered that,ho;ight
elected in opposition to the Lord Chancellor Eldon, he 'P._ -zeiv
that that circumstance alone would skew the high With
tion in which Lord Grenville had been regarded. the re-
respect to the measure of 1807, he would recal to
collection of the House the marked difference of
and ,''coin'
stances existing in the years 1807 lBl7.—ln 1801, u'oe ,the
seientious scruples of his late Majesty on the subjectratho-
Catholic claims had been well known, and even many
tithe
lies had refused to press their claims, because they had the
aware of the state of the Monarch's feelings. But in I°l7l'd
be
state of circumstances had been entirely changed. It Ivo° the
presumption in him to trespass further on- the attention 0-, for
House, but he hoped that he had shewn a sufficient excuse
the interruption which he had given. of
Mr. WETHEREL 4L spoke a few words in explana.-
the conduct of the University of Oxford.
Mr. BROUGHAM then rose to reply.—He disclaimed n..
imputation upon the University for its choice of Lord Grtbo
ville ; but he contended that choice was influenced by,.
near approach of that Noble Lord getting
qUalities which the Right Honourable Gentleman talked;
much of, would never have recommended him, if he were_ale
about to become a Minister of the Crown. The Honourathe
into place. I ~
Member now went on to show that it was contrary t°,„oas
principles of the constitution of the House of CotTiorra
to continue to give its confidence to any set of men Bad
the King should chose to • appoint as his Ministers
keep in their places,' although they might be unworthy %tf o-
confidence. At a time when we were threatened with
to,
sion, and when the French were thundering at our
Kints
g wished,
and' this he would say was a most unconstitutional pri-, of
ing. He should not say any thing respecting the calculatioured
the Noble Lord, because they had been so ably o„,lasjie
by his his Hon. Friend the. Member for Shrewsbury. '-t nce
crease of our debt had given a great increase to the inth'etbet
of the Crorin, and he contended that in order to meet de-
danger, It was necessary to make changes in variouscon-
partments, in order to keep up the equilibrium of the
id he
stitution, by which alone the dangerous influence CO
be
counteracted. The only equitable counterpoise that coin
oje
made was, that of making a more equal change in the °lila;
of electing Representatives, and subjecting 'them more I'd he
control o the people than they were at present. It wollittle
sound wisdom for the Members of that House to look tot, of
before them, and to consider what would gratify the wish
ca
Ito*, who had too long been in the habit of looking tio
the Parliament without effect.
The House then divided ; the numbers were—
For the Motion - - 101
For the Amendment - 216
Majority - - Xll5
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of.
House adjourned at a QUARTER. BEFORE ONE O'CL°Cl'.