The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-20 00:00:00

LONDON„ THURSDAY EVENING, OCTOBER 20, 1831.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110 USE OF LORDS, OcronEß 19.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the Crown
Lands Bill was read a second and third time, and passed.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said, on a former evening
some Noble Lords complained that since the reduction of •
the duty on coals the coal-owners had raised the price, and
in consequence the public hail received no benefit.—
He was anxious that the coal-owners should not bear blame
to which they were not entitled. The facts were, the prices
of coalsat Newcastle were the:same now, and never had been
higher after than they were before the duty was taken off,
and so far frOm the coal-owners having made more money
since than before, the truth was they had been making
from 151. to 201. per cent. less, in consequence of the pit-
men striking soon after the remission of the duty. The
Pitmen even now would not work more than to earn a
:certain suns of money per day, and the consequence would
'be. that :the supply of coal would not be sufficient for
the• market; but for this the coal-owner eras not to be
blamed, he could not remedy the evil, and so far from
being a gainer, he would actually be a loser. The Noble
Lord then moved for returns of the prices of the London
Chaldron of coals at Newcastle from September, 1827, to
October, 1831.—Ordered.
On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR the Vestries'
Bill, with the amendments, was read a third time and
passed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR in moving the adoption
of the amendments in the Bankruptcy Courts' Bill, said
that there was only one which applied to the principle
of the Bill. In the Bill, as he introduced it, he al-
lowed retiring pensions to the Judges, but this clause
was struck out by the House of Commons, and as
the Bill now stood, the Judges would receive no
pensions. The Noble Lord defended the Bill as now
before the House, saying that Judges of that Court had the
advantage of him, as they were for life, and his place
was precarious. They (the Judges) had also the
opportunity which other men had of insuring their lives,
and so securing a provision for their familie;.. If, how-
ever, it was found that, on account of this clause,
they could not procure fit and able men for the
situations, or if, however, it was found that it
induced them to stop on the bench longer than they were
useful (for he felt that both objections might be urged),
then it would be for the other House to remedy the evil,
for being money clauses their Lordships could not inter-
fere, but he for one wonid not object to it. The amend-
ments were then agreed to.
The Duke of BUCCLEITCH would move for returns
of all causes tried in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland,
stating what were defended, undefended, and those which
were compromised.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, so far from objecting
to the motion, would second it.
The Earl of HARDWICKE asked whether in the Law
Reforms nothing was to be done for preventing persons
living on the Continent, and putting their creditors at de-
fiance.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it certainly was

intended not only to propose measures for that purpose,
bur also to prevent persons from spending their money like
Princes i❑ the rules of the prisons, while their creditors

were starving.
Lord MELVILLE said the cause of there being so few
causes tried in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland was
that many persons thre itened with processes in that Court
preferred rather to compromise the affair than go to trial ;
because in that Court, even if they were acquitted, the
costs would amount to more than the penalties to which
they were liable. If the Law Reform went into opera•
Lion that Court might have more to do, and it would
he as well for the Noble and Learned Lord to take that
into his consideration.

The LORD CHANCELLOR defended the process in
the Court of Exchequer, as tending much to prevent the
breaking of the laws.
The Duke of RICHMOND laid on the table a copy of
the population returns.
The House then adjourned till Twelve o'clock to-morrow.

property was to be preserved, and the people could ob-
tain their just rights.—(Hear, hear.) Looking at the
subject in that view, he thought the conduct of the Mem-
bers of the Birmingham Political Union was highly praise-
worthy. The petition contained certain opinions which
he was desired to state to the House. The petitioners
expressed their alarm and regret at the rejection of
the Bill by the House of Lords ; they consider,rl
that House had no right whatever to interfere in the elec-
tion of Members of the House of Commons ; that one
effect of the rejection would be to injure public credit, and
they regretted that about 200 individuals should set them-
selves up against the interests, of the country. They hoped
that the House would not agree to any compromise that
might be proposed upon tae subject of Reform, and stated
that if either the same Bill, or one similar, were not spee-
dily passed, a much more extensive one would be carried
by popular violence and force. They prayed the House
to address his Majesty, beseeching bite to create 100 new
Peers, or as many more as might be necessary, in order
that the Bill might be carried without mutilation. The
Hon. Member would not at present advise the creation
of new Peers, . because he hoped the measure would
be carried without that—the last resort. The petitioners
had been much abused for their exertions to preserve the
peace of the country, but he, Mr. Hume, should like to see
i similar institutions in every parish in the kingdom.
Upon the petition being brought up.
Sir R. VYVYAN begged that the prayer of it might
by read.
' The Clerk read the prayer, which was, that the House
should Address his Majesty to create 100 new Peers, or
so many more as would ensure the passing of the Bill, or
that his Majesty would dissolve the Parliament and summon
a new one, in which the House of Commons should be
summoned according to the principles laid down in the
Reform Bill.

h Mr. HUNT bore testimony to the respectability of the
petitioners.
On the motion that the petition be printed,
Sir H. VYVYAN referred the House to two paragraph•
in the petition, which stated that the interests of the
people had been sacrificed by 200 interested individuals, and
that the two Houses of Parliament were in opposition to each
other ; and the petitioners reminded the House that it wa.
not possible for the 'country to remain long in its present
condition without being succeeded by a state of
anarchy and confusion. He put it, therefore to the
House—he put it to his Majesty's Government, whe
ther it was proper to receive petitions containing such
language in reference to the House of Peers?—(Hear,
hear, hear.) With regard to the wish of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex that clubs of this description wer-
established from one end of the kingdom to the other.
as a means of preserving the public peace. he (Sir
R. Vyvyan) declared, that if the Government of the count y
could not preserve the public peace without the assistance
of these clubs, then let there he a Reform in Parliament
immediately ; but God defend the country from being
governed by clubs.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He
however, would assert that it was by these clubs that the
public peace was overthrown.—(Cheers from the Opp,
lotion.) He knew an instance of Reformed Parliaments
in 'Naples, which took place while he was there, and
there was not a day in which the members of it were nut
threatened by the members of the political clubs.—(Hear.)
Sir F. BURDETT said he could see nothing illegal or
unconstitutional, nor any thing which the House could
find fault with, in the petition. But he was not surprised
at the speech of the Honourable Baronet. There was
nothing illegal or unconstitutional even in the existence oh
those unions. He said so because he belonged to the
Birmingham Political Union, which was established to
obtain for the people their just rights and privileges against
the mass of corruption which interposed to prevent it.
Those unions arose out of the perpetual denial by that
House of the pea.ple's rights—(Cbeers)—and if any person.
,n the country looked upon the clubs as evils, they were
the lion. Baronet and those who acted with him.—

(Hear, hear, and repeated cheers.) They arose from a justly
discontented public, and if the Hon. Baronet could think
that in the present state of the country, the people could
be prevented expressing their feelings in that House,
he was much tnistaken.—(Cheers.) There was an ex-
cuse forahem, if excuse were necessary. The Hon. Baronet
spoke of these unions and associations as if they were
lately and for the first time formed. He (Sir F. Burdett)
had recollected them almost ever since he was born. Hsi,
not Ireland been governed by Orange clubs—(Loud
cheers)—and how long was it since it was thought to
be an honour even in that Honourable House, to to -
long to a Brunswick club?--(Loud cheers.) But
when an honest Administration for the first time came for-
ward with remedial and beneficial measures, and
had demanded and received the support of the people
of England, were those clubs to be designated as
injurious to the peace of society ? It was difficult to
keep language even within the rules of that House, when
they heard that those measures were to be opposed by a few
individuals who set themselves up against the national will.
If his Majesty's Ministers were to he pusillanimous—if
they were to shrink from that great measure—if they
were to desert their great, generous, and patriotic Sove-
reign, and to forfeit the duty which they owed to the
people-:-.if they were in fact to throw up the reins
of the Government, who he would ask would take the Go-
vernment of the country, except by entertaining the same
views?—(Loud cheers.) It came then to this, that the
opposition to this measure was a factious opposition—( Hear
hear, bear)—an opposition for the purpose of turning out
the Administration.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was the
more convinced of this when lie saw those gentlemen who
began with opposing all attempts at Reform admit at last
that Reform was necessary, while they threw in the way of
every species of Reform all sorts of obstacle, and tried to
veil their real opposition to Reform under an affected oppo-
sition to this particular measure. Why, even the Noble
Duke himself admitted that some Reform was necessary.
A short time since it was not to with the Noble Duke, and
the world gave him credit at least for manliness and cou-
rage when be made the declaration. But even he had been
compelled to recede from the point of absolute refusal of
Reform. He found himself in a false position, and had re-
ceded from the point which he appeared at first to have
taken up with the same desperate resolution with which
he had taken up his position at Waterloo—a position from
which he said he would not move, and which the valour of
our brave countrynr, —(Hear, bear)—on whose rights
they are now deciding—(llear)—had enabled him to
maintain. On that occasion his resolution was nobly jus-
tified by the courage of the men whom lie then commanded ;
but on the present be was forced to abandon his ground.
It was true he bad not now the same steady troops as on
that occasion ; his present followers fell off from the ad-
vanced posts to which he had ordered them, but which
they found to be positions that were quite untenable, and he
himself was at last obliged to give up his position and effect
his retreat.—(Hear.) But what wa: the cause of all
this ? It was the strong necessity which neither he nor
manwas
nc ooullido
tr,ees ifsotr. —t h (e I
aI ema
er
1,
ohreaatii.o)n lof t
gwr
iaesv
acnl clear
anytlit u otllleerre
of which the people had often complained, but the com-
plaints about which had hitherto been disregarded, but the
adoption of this measure of Reform--and its adoption
could only be secured by the people giving their full sup-
port to those Ministers who had so well deserved it by
proposing such a measure for Parliamentary adoption.—
(Hear, hear.) Let them, then, give their confidence to
the Ministry--let them show that they were convinced, as
he was, that the Ministry would not abandon the duty
they owed to their Sovereign and to the people. At the
same time
by time he was certain} that whatever steps were
adopted
persons out of the House, they wereadopted not
with a view to dictate to the Ministry, but to sirew the
Ministry that they ought not to shrink from completing
the great work they had begun, and to prove to them and
to their opponents that there was nothing likely to throw
the country into confusion but the rejection of this mea-
sure- Every one, however, was convinced the; the mea-
sure could not be finally rejected ; but every one was also
convinced that, to enable the I‘,linisters to early it, the
people must zealously give them their support. The
people were well inclined to do so, for they felt how much
they were indebted to the present Ministers, 4pd that their
,e were
is or om
interest required them to give Ministers their support,
for they knew that the country would never be settled
till this measure was adopted ; and they did not despair,
for, knowing the feeling of the country, they knew that the
who
measurev
il( thoseld not
long
who r
resisted
sbet
ed t
re i e d .o—u
e( et a
or
f,
tesa hear.)
opponentsA n
d
rieu ltslt'
was a parcel of intriguing gentlemen at the west enat of
the town
gossips ; and there were intriguing ladies, too, "mighty
,s"ayw,hioiistebeirnttoerufenriceiniocwe
nin
sHe uch matters was a thing,ln on
he w
must .
regretted that interference, because he thought that

when ladies once got out of the domestic circle and got
into the political, they lost much of the influence they
would otherwise properly possess ; and he was tempted to
pass upon them a similar judgment to that which Mrs.
Peachum, in The Beggar's Opera,
_passed upon them.
Mrs. Peachuen said, " Women are bitter bad judges in
cases of murder ;" and so he said, " Women are bitter bail
judges in cases of politics. "—(Hear, and a laugh.) For
himself he could only say, that considering things as they
stood, he could almost wish that the Kings in past times
had made use of their prerogatives, and had discontinued
sending writs to decayed boroughs, and had, at the
same time, sent writs to boroughs that had grown great
and flourishing. If that prerogative had been used, that
House would not have been in the situation in which it
was now, but there would have been, as it were, a daily
Reform, suppressing the elective franchise of inconsider-
able boroughs, and transferring it to new and populous and
flourishing towns. The King, no doubt, possessed the
right of withholding these write, and of issuing them ;
and had that course been adopted from the beginning, there
would have been a Reform of Parliament which would not
have required the interference of the other House of Le-
gislature. Indeed he was almost prepared to say, that as
Reform essentially concerned the privileges of that House,
and the cuntroul ever the public purse (a controul of which,
on other occasions, they were so jealous, that they would
not permit the other House to make the smallest alteration
in their Money Bills,—not:even in the relaxation of the
public burdens), it was a matter with which the other
House ought not to interfere. He was sorry that the House
of Lords should thus have brought themselves into a situa-
tion not reputable in the eyes of the country, doing them-
selves no good, and forcing upon. the Minds of the people
an inquiry as to the limits of their privileges. He wished
to see the Constitution preserved ; he believed it was an
excellent Constitution in practice; but when it had b-en
corrupted, it should be purified ; and, therefore, he wished
to see a fair and free and full representation of the people,
for that was part of the Constitution; and he, therefore,
did regret most deeply that the Peers should have. opposed
themselves to a demand which was made by the whole
people of England—namely, that a measure should be
passed to secure to them their constitutional right—the
right of controuling the public purse.—( Hear, bear.)
What did all the rant about jacobinism and revolution
mean—what did it come to but this—that those who
ranted thus wished still to exclude the people from the
right he had referred to—the right which they now sought
with so much anxiety ? In what was passing out of doors
he saw nothing to alarm men, except they went on exas-
perating the public by delay and refusal, till the public
would no longer be satisfied with this just, rational, and
effective measure, but would be determined to have more
than their warmest friends now called on the opposite party
to grant.—(Bear, hear.) They must all recollect the play
of _Henry IV., when Hotspur, Owen Glendower, and
others, were engaged in portioning out England. In that
scene, Glendower had taken the Trent for the limit of his
portion ; and Hotspur, thinking it would trench too much
upon his portion, said—
" have the current in this place damin'd up;
It shall not wind with such a deep indent,
To rob me of so rich a bottom here."
Glendower, of course, objected, and words ran high be-
tween them ; Hotspur was told he should not anger Owen
Glendower, for Glendower was a friend; on which
Hotspur, with true English feeling, exclaimed—
" -- give thrice so much land
To any well-deserving friend,
But in the way of bargain, mark ye me,
I'll cavil on the ninth part of a hair."
So said the people of England at this moment.—( Hear,
hear.) They would recede much if they were satisfi .1
that they should get what they wanted, and what they had
a i ight to ask, namely, a practical controul over the public
expenditure; but if that were refused them—if friendli-
ness was dropped, and the matter became one of bargain,
they would " cavil about the ninth, part of a hair."—
(Cheers.) In his opinion, Ministers deserved the confi•
deuce of the country—(Hear)—and he was anxious to
impress that on the country, for they had given au earnest
of their honest intentions, and confidence in them would
enable them to follow out what they hail thus begun,
while a different course would but tend to impede
them in carrying into s xecution the plan of Reform
they had laid before the country. He knew it might b.
said that the prop le were properly jealous of bestowing
their unlimited confidence ; but if it was unwise to give
the Government their confidence lest they might be be-
trayed, was it not equally unwise to withhold their confi-
dence when they had good grounds for yielding it? In
the conduct of all matters confidence was necessary. lo
this instance it had been given, and it should not now be
withdrawn. What greater claim to confidence could be
put forward by any Ministry than what was put forward
by the present in this one measure? Whit they proposed
was a voluntary act of theirs—they had embarked them-
selves in the same boat, in the same vessel, with the
liberties of their country, and they had identified their
interests with those of the people. They were in the
same situation as the Roman army which went out to con-
quer their neighbours, the Samnites. The Roman Coo.
sul, who had determined not to retreat, placed his army
in such a position that it was impossible for the army to
escape from a victorious enemy, and they had, therefore,
no alternative but to conquer. The Roman Consul, in
his speech to his soldiers, told them that the contest
would be desperate—that they would have te. combat
an enemy equally numerous, equally well disciplined,
equally provided with arias, and equally full of courage
with themselves ; but he added, that they had one
advantage—quod maxima et altima erant necessitate AV-
pe.TiOri. That was the situation of the Ministers—by ne-
cessity alone they would be compelled to be victorious ;
they were to fall or stand by this measure ; and they were
sure of victory, for they were sure of the public support,
and with that support they could not fall.—(Hear, heat.)
He trusted that they would not be pressed in spy way to
promise a particular line of conduct. lie tereated that his
Majesty and his Ministers would lei enabled to relieve the
country from those difficulties in which for a century past
it had been involved, and that they would succeed in pro-
curing for the country that representation, without which
it was in vain to hope for good government—without
which a good Government cauid not go on, and which
alone would be able to secure the public tranquillity and
happiness.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN would not follow this Vsoo. Baronet
through all the charges of his discursive apeecle nor should
he stay to do more than exprzsa his surprise at the some-
, what ungallant attack which the Hon. Baronet bad male
on those of his countrywomen whom he supposed to have
been opposed to the measure of which he waq tte advocate.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then adessted to the objec-
tions against receiving his petition, and stated his general
concurrence wits thssa.
Lord ALTIIOItP did not think that the wording of pe-
titions from the people in times of great excitement onght
to be too strictly looked to.—(Hear.) the Hon.
Baronet opposite meant to ask him, slid 'its approve of the
language of the petitio„, he (Lord Althorp) was per-
fectly ready to eat he did not.—(Hear.) It was
laPpagz auch as he hoped lie never approached to hive-
self, and such as he was sure could be of no so;: ar use in
the discussion of political questions. :out if the Hon.
Baronet asked hint, did he Oil's, that the petition ought
to be received in the 'ardina.ry manner in which petitions
upon itnisortaar subjects were received, and should be
perin'tted to be printed, that, he would
rite erostwerer,swnaos,
altogetlfer a question of expediency. te expressions to
which the Hon. Baronet ohLec'ead related to the particular
conduct of noble ittilis;duals in the other House of Parliae
ment ; end he had known the House to receive ;sect to
taa
print petitions' animadverting in very srg terms
only on individuals in either Hies.aa of Parliament, but
upon the conduct of the whole Legislature. He, there-
fore, did not this',: that the House would do wisely in
refusing the motion of his Hon. Friend. Tint in giving
that opinion, he hoped he should ns:: nee !opposed to agree
in or to sanction the language of the petitioners.--( Hear. )
Mr. KENNEDY protested against the doctrine of aps
Pealing to Minieters as Members of tl- Government on
questions like the. present. They ought to give their
opinions only as Wye:dual Members of the House ira
matters which were not connected with the policy of their
Government. As to the question before them, be rausi
.ay that if Hon. Gentlemen opposite knew tae state of
feeling in the country, they would ristlies feel pleasure than
regret that it vented itself this harinites way. If pe-
titions of this 'sins were rejected on account of strong
language, depend on it the people would press roend the
throne and give expression to opinions much stronger.
In fact, the petitions which had been presented by the
people, proved the complete tranquillity of the country ;
and that it was, he believed, at which Hon. Gentlemen
optiosi,te were so much diesappointed, The country was,

owever, he 1919 happy:49;4By, peifeoly tranquil. if ,!
uld speak more particuilal%:of thaCpact of the kingeloin
with which he was mOrelsiderediately connected (Seot-
land) ; but he would not lay- that that tranquillity would
be permanent if the measure of Reform were unneces-arilv
delayed,—ultimately refused it could not be,--but he could
not look without serious apprehesuiou at the consequtnces
of any unnecessary delay.
Mr. G. BANKES repelled the imputation of the Hon.
Member who' last addressed the House, that Members at
that (the Opposition) side 'wire disappuinwil at the trar.-
quil lute of the country. They had never expected that
the country would be otherwise than tranquil, and there-
fore the tranquillity which now prevailed was not natter
of surprise; still less of ditappointment, to them. They
objected to such language as this petition contained, be-
cause they expected that bodies who wished to be eon-
sidered deliberative asoernbliev would use snore caution than
men who met only for one occasion. The Hon. Bsinuet
had adverted to the Orange and Brunswick Clubs, which
he assumed were founded on the principles of Metnliers
of that (the Opposition) side of the House; but what
would the Hon. Baronet say if petitions were presented
from any of those clubs, complaining of the selfish ob-
stinacy of Lord Grey and his colleagues, in sacrificing or
endangering the interests of the country, by persisting iu a
violent change of the Constitution. Would the Hon.
Baronet think that the Hotise. ought to sanction lan-
guage of that kind by ordering the petition to be
printed? He (Mr. Bankes) had no desire to rejecitlae
petitions of any portion of the people, but he did
desire that the petitions would be worded in respectful
language. The question now before the House was not
whether the petition should be rejected, for no one had
any such wish, but whether the House would so far sanc-
tion the language which the Noble Lord (Althorp) had
declared he disapproved, as to direct it to be printed.
There were many parts of the lion. Baronet's speech
which he regretted, but he concurred with him in that
where he put forth the prerogatives of the Crown so pro
minently. He was glad, also, so hear him speak of the
Sovereign SR the father of his people ; but it did some-
times happen, that the fond,st fathers mistook the passions
of their children, and indulged these passions ta the pre-
judice of their real interests.
Mr. J. JOHNSTONE congratulated the House on the
state of tranquillity which prevailed in that part of the
empire to which he belonged: lie did not think that the
Hon. Baronet opposite did right at aceeringat the Poli-
tical Unions. He begged to residual the Hon. Baronet
that peace had been preserved in these placed where Poli-
tical Unions were established, and that riots and conflagra-
tions had taken place iu those parts of the country where
there existed no Political I rnions,—?iottiuglrarn and Derby,
for instance. He thought that the sooner the House met,
after the prorogation; the better ; and he believed that if
the present Ministers were to leave office, the whole country
would be on fire.

Mr. HUNT denied that the people were unaninaoui in
favour of the Reform Rill ; and declared that the Miniatera
were not entitled to hil confidence.

Sir B. VYVYAN, in explanacion, stated that he would
rather see riots in some parts of the country, than have the
peace kept by means of unions, which wore only iustru..
tnents in the hands of demagogues.
The petition was then ordered to be printA
The Vestry Bill, with amendment., was brought from
the House of Lords.

On the motion of Mr. LAMB, the Loide amendments
were agreed to.