The Sun.
London, England, 1813-05-25 00:00:00

act from the feelings of his own heart—.,.(The
Noble Lord resumed his seal amidst loud cheers from
iillpurls of The (louse.)

Mr. YORKE said, the Noble Loaf had spoken
'noeh of the happy state of things which might be
expected to result front the pising of this Bill ;
mid could he hope that the effects of it would be
such as the Noble .Lord bad described; the mea-
sure would s.ertainly have' his' warinest support ;
but far from this, lie MIS of opinion, that it would
increase the existing differences; and influence the
animosity of the parties, by bringing then) in con
tact with each other. The dangers spoken of, it
bad been
,said, were imaginary. He could not
say what of evil might occur in twenty years ; but
this be was sure of, that we,had been well gtivera-
ed under the laws as they at present stood. These
had raised- this country to a situation of greater
prosperity, than any country !lad ever been
raised to before; and he wa-s satisfied that if the
lawS continued the same, things- woold go on us
they had done, With this confideoce,' and with
the experience of the past, he coind not consent
to such an alteration io the laws as was now pro-
posed. . Those anomalies which could Safely be
removed, he should be happy to see ;done away,
but the present question wits; whether or not ;thc...
Catholics !Mould he admitted to take a part in the
Government Of a Protestant 'country His Noble
Friend had admitted dance wits to .beepprehelad-
ed from foreign intinenee, and lie had also. ad-
mitted the necessity of seenritieS.: Now, in his
opinion, there was hut one security, for the Pro-
, testant Constitution, and that Security they
were going to give up, for the only real secu-
rity against the Catholics-was keeping them out.
' When, in framing the Feiglish Constitution,
"it, was declared that it should be a Protestant
Monarchy, that it had been suggested that
the King should be authorised to choose Popish
Ministers, this proposition would have been laugh-
.'ed at. It was undoubtedly meant by to PrOtestant
Monarchy, that the King, 'the Ministers, and
Parliament, should be Protestant. It then. thii
pr:nciple were given ty,,the English Constitution
would be destroyed. • How could they suffer Ro-
. man Catholics to make laws for the regelatioO of
the Church of England His Noble Friend, on a
former Occaiion, had adverted to the inconsistency
of his thus observing to the frieods of 'the'Cardm-
lies, You set: out on the'priuciple.that there
shall be no interference in '.the• slightest degree
with the Bomsts Catholic Church; but would ud.
mit the ROlo4:1 Catholics into Parliament to in.:.
terfere with your own." It this were perniittede
.hat would the Church Of England say? Admit-
ting Catholics into Parliament, and to be.Minis-
ttas,. whit security had the. Protestant Church's
Was oat doing- this to violate the con pact be-
tween Chore!) and State ? 116 could not therefore
agree to this, clause, bat this thrown out; he had
no objection to take into consideration the other
provisions (4 the 'Bill. -Whatever they did be was
sensible would not give. satisfaction to the Catho-
lics, lint he was ready to goes far ,as be could con-
scifaitiously, and to do what. ought to satisfy
'them, and svh:lt would be sufficient to content
reasonable men. He bad enderstood that the
Bill was not to pass till it had lien ascertained
thataike Catholics would agree to the provisions'
it contained, The Commissiou, however, which
was to siydfy this agreement, would stand for
nothing it their decision had' not-the sanction of
one of the Episcopal Order:, Front the, moment
' the Bill passed, ;he Catholics would be entitled
to the privileges of the Constitution, and while
they werei suffe.red to come to Parliament, and
take a share indict Government of the Country, lie
learen the Protestants might look. fooheir secu-
rities in vain.
Mr. GRATTAN observed, that if the Catholic
Clergy did not agree to the commission, their
whole episcopacy would be stopped, and this con,
sideration was an answer to the apprehensions of
thellight lion. Gentleman on that head. :.With
respect to the great danger anticipated. from the
infitsion of. Catholic. characters into the. Legisla-
_,ture—the Legislature whieh acted upon Protes-
tant subjects, he'denied that any would exist. It
would not be a Catholic House Oinking lows for
Protestants, but a Protestant House with a very.
stnall proportion of Catholim 41-,(1.-this was the
essence of Inc Protestant establishment; that all
classes of men shotild be represented. It was erro-
mous to say that Roman Catholics and Protes,.
tants could not he united,--,that there was a:civil
incompatibility. He denied the fact, that tra»-
sabStantiation, or a belief in saints; 'created this
incompatibility, nor. was it' the case in any other
country,. The Right Hon. Gentleman whose opi-,
nions had justly so much weight (Mr.. Abbot)
objected to the Bill, frOm a belief that the nitro-
duction-ola hundred of the Catholics of Ireland
might be dangerous to the Piotestant influeece in •
tltitt House. The probability of this he meld not
admit;- forlhe bulk of the landed property in Ire-
hold was ht Protestant' hands, and It was the
:landed -property „which .sent. Members Jo that
House. Seven Peers in the other.flonse, nod 30,
40, or '5O Members- in that House, which-con-
sisted of 6 Members; could never give the Ca-
tholics au ascendancy. Soch u minority' could
could not
.constitute a majority in that House.
'But 'what 'was the qnestion before them—not
ivhether the 'Catholics should have seats, that was
only.tt part; of, and not all the measure,. but wise-
•ther the Protestants. should have seettrity.? Time
framer.: of tlfe Bill came to them,with this, and
now they would reje4 both ! in his opinion, the
*hoses which het been addid to the Bill were.
perfectly consistent with the Catholic religion,
and essential to time passing of the measure if
these were rejected, then they would be rejecting
the Bill lit. complimented Lord C,istlereagh On
leaving "acted a manly part in regard to this nica;-
sure ; .tud ns,the side he had taken:might he AM-
1101)4411*.fav a seli3on, it was . but, right that the
framers Of the Bill should partake of the odium with
him, which he had to'encotOlter feolo those Ca."
tholies, and. their Bishops, Who were hostile to
these clauses. In the sentiments uttered by the
Noble. Lord lie coriihtilv concurred, and dilfered
;11 entirety from the opinions held' out by the
Right lion, Gentleman near him (Mr. leorke)..
The question was, whether thcy would have the
Pope's power limited, and the Catholic Laity in,
col-Follow
,-with ;themselves, or whether they
would have the Catholics disonited, and the papal
iniMence whole

Mr. RATnuarr thought what bad fallen front
the Right lion. Gentleman of so extf aordinor'y a
nature, that he must call the attentioo of the
House to some of the points he had titgea It had
been proposed; at an early stage thei:ill, to
postpone the.concessions till they saw if ti.e Ca-
tholics would agree to grant ?c,LunitHs ;. but by
the mode noW porsued, all world he granted
to the Catholics With no 'prospect
.01 hen *sub-
mitting to them, at was stated by Dr. '..*Wlnq.
'He augured, therefore, the clause of 3cc..by
wool(' be nugatory: He wasi,'.:t orprised at the
assertion of 'the. Right Hn oottfitble Gentleman,
that they could not exchtde perSenS from the
State hot for treason. The. constitution aid the
practice of out ancestors, trout the time of f'ar,
volution, proved the veverse of this ; for,bY,these,
the religion of the State leas held to be Protes-
tant, and other religious Were escluiled. As for
the probability' of danger, from' the (atholies iii
that House, it did. not :eSt On the nutitber of those
who' might .be chosen in the first in,qauce. But
Gentleffien on the other Side Lad, in former argu-
Meats, told them' that the power'od pr;-)perty ot'
that body-were growing and Oust grow in ire-
land, till they Intd, a decided ;;•ieri(irity. And
were there no Catholics in England ? were th ere no
countries in which there weer thou Sands of them ?
And ought not the Legislature.to look beyead the
present moment in a nica;ure of this importance ?
He denied the truth of the dilemma that had been,
put from the other side, and conceived it to he per-
fectly possible to enact all the seem utics iti the!Ilill,
with only part of the epoi!cssioris: It was high
time for the House to look tr. the former; after
what heat been stated concerning reli,gious sects,
and the progress of Clerk4lcatbMie intitutions
in this country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
stated; and he begged the 1-lonse'te attend to the
very remarkable word--.-be bad 'Stated. that he was
willing to- share with theni the odium of the
chimes to provide Qgaitast foreign interference:-,---
Whence proceeded tInS odium Was it if provi-
sion ,:4gainst .Ptipal interference that 'the Ri.,ht
`Hon. Gentleman dect4reti to bendious ? It could
only co-the from the body to which he had sdluded.
Titca where Were their securities, or Where the
principal object for whic,4l they entered upon this
conciliation? He feared that this
work of peace.was only. the beginning of .animo-
sity and further Waxing, and. he, for one, would
not consent to give his vote for Innovation, Nybigh
inyolved the dowofal of the Constitution.

Mr, GRATTAN. explained.
. Mr. \V, FITZGIUtALJ spoke- in favour of the
measure, and' recalled the attention of the Coons-
mittee to the question immediately before them,
' instead of disctissing the general principle.. He,
prof6sed himself to be an advocate for eonteisido,
With. Security ; and though the clausesreferred to
might he unpopular for a time, be was sanguine
that the fond sense of the Clergy of Ireland Wouht
reconcile them to a measure, long before these
devises were acted upon.
Mr. CAti'N,ING rose at A late low, and entered
into an able and eloquent argument in favour of
the measure generally, and of the particular clause
now under discussion,
,which, in his opinion,
vitally involVetl, the adoption or rejection
,of the
whole Bill. The measure embraced two parts :
concession and eoneiliatiottto the Catholic, and
security to the Protestants.. This clause was the
greatest of these concessions, but he WA/ more hi
favour of it bemuse he believed .in .his. sail]
thict • it: also ssilOrded the hest security tp
the Protestant's. It was of such paramount.
consequence., that upon its fate depended whe-
ther the next twenty years should be pass,cd
in tranquility, or in growing discord. stud 'map-
peasable dissension. They were threatened by
the opponents of, this measure with the danger
of bringing dissensions Within these
would admit it for argument sake, though pre-
. peared to refute it, and on .his conscience and
judgment, he thought the best way to allay them,
MIS to give them
.vent thcre,,to let thcrii run
,their regular course, instead of beiag
over the country by a general, uncoiltins:4) itg4u-
tion. lie had often heard apprehensions ex,-.
pressed lest demagogues sl raitle find, they way
into that House. He ever thor:ght it the
.hest way to, bring: them face, to fare here
and in many instances where this had been
tried its might be in the memory of many) it
terminated in no increase of , power to the de
gogoe, but. on
_the, contrary, his tenets were put
to the test, :Mir lie dwindled into n:nive
canoe. What was trim of an individual, was true
of the Catholic Body. Ile said, let the House,
meet 'the cause. of disaffection there... Strip fhe
party of real grievances, and placetheni in .nalied
deformity there, "where they were not Jialged,by
the inflamed passions of a sympathizing multitude;
but by the penetration of persons who looked with
Statesmen's eyes to what was- brotsght before
them.•----llc next ridiculed the visionary alarm of
danger from the-,admission of Putholies, ,is it-tiny
would invariably act together, and attractin:! °diet'
bodies; usurp the Government. The same argument
was Urged both at the Scotch untilrish Unions, and
yet it was not found that Seotsujen or Irishine'n
were always, of the same way of thinking in that
House—By refusing them seats in that House,
they woidd.he made to look for every fltrOi.ir frolll.
the cr'o'wn,' and.not to connect themselves with-
the popular branch, and this in itself was' 'dan-
gerous thing. He could not conceive any body
more at for mischief. He next commented upon,
the, speech of Mr, Bankes, and pointed out that
the historical fact he lutd cited, went to innye the
very reierst of his position, th at eapieity
Possession. He also coMplained of the waytinhvll:,;,;,l4:
obj i:suect:had been difenoed
tin seeurities debated
wire proposed, instead of the
01'
when the details ought to coup.. Itistiti ffi ,k ,
having thesis tdo)getl":r )itaii dl emu::
must be, done tbv.):.....it.:1)10151 Oild 4
this the: ib is
cwhfs sluacted‘evirin4:lf)i'lligivetilll'at must be prepared to
olhlt.;g1 reYitlese:llle' efe..(l:e'ti(i gelltlytehlta‘o:aY p.ntis anti
tsi tte'lys"
its restrictions as they pleased. ' After -cominent.
sag with, much good humour on the sedulous la,
bouri, of Sir J. HippiSiey,to ticipiire nod comoio.
nicateinformation on this subject, he, in a power-
ful strah4 depreetod tin disamdutltieln Of the
highly raised hopes of the Catholics„ and intreatAl