The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-08 00:00:00

CIVIL LIST.

Mr. PORTMAN would take this opportunity of
asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question
relating to the Civil List.—(Hear, bear.)—He, with
many others in as well as out of that House, felt great
disappointment at the proposition submitted by Govern-
ment to the House a few evenings ago.—(Hear, hear.)—
He undoubtedly wished to know if that imposition
was doing as much as Ministers thought it possible for
them to do ; or whether it was their intention to call now
on the House to carry on the work of retrenchment on a
more extended scale than they, as Ministers of the
Crown, felt themselves warranted in doing without.
Whether he was right in supposing that the plan suggested
by the Government on the subject of On Civil List was to
be understood as submitted to the House to be dealt with
as the House should think fit, without the interference of
the Govet nment, and all the influence a Government might
be disposed to carry with it or not ? In other words, whe-
ther the Government would be disposed to meet the dealing
of the House with the Pension List in a very different
manner to the way in which it had been proposed?
He was sure it would be most satisfactory to the
country to know that his Majesty's Government, having
dune what they could, meant to leave it to the House to
aid them in any way the Members of the House could in
further meeting the views of the country ; also whether the
salaries of the Great Officers of State should be put upon
the Civil List with the salaries of the other officers, and dealt
with according to what the Committee now sitting might
recommend ?
The' CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
answering the questions put by my Hon. Friend I shall
have to detain the House for a few minutes. The propo-
sition I bad the honour to bring down on Friday last was
brought down after due deliberation and consideration on
the part of his Majesty's Government. Sir, we were per-
fectly prepared to submit that proposition on our own re-
sponsibility. In doing so, however, we never could pre-
sume to say to this House, or to any Committee
appointed by the Home, that what we proposed, and
thought the proper measure, was not to he altered by the
Committee of, or by the House itself. I would leave
it to the Committee to decide upon it as that Committee
shall think fit.—(liear, hear.) But upon the subject of
the Pension List I must say a few words. I cannot
consider it to be the duty of the Ministers of this country,
or of the legislature of this country, to take advantage of
a technical point of law, in order to do that which in
my conscience I believe would be unjust and unrighteous
—(Hear, hear, hear.) These pensions, as I had
the honour to state on Friday night, were granted, and have
always been considered to have been granted, for life. It is
undoubtedly true that by taking advantage of that technical
point of law, which says they all expired on the demise
of the Crown, we have the legal right to deprive the
pensioners from further receiving their income. But I
would put it to the House and to the country to
say whether it would be worthy the conduct of the Govern-
ment of the country to take such an advantage, considering
the actual relief which could be gained by it—whether
it would be an object worthy of the conduct of this Go-
vernment, or whether it would not rather be a crime
which would be discreditable to the country.—(Loud
cheers and great laughter.) Sir, having said time
much, and having likewise said that I ara meat
perfectly ready to do that which is right, I shall
await the decision of the Committee and of the House
with every deference and respect. It will be my
most earnest wish to comply with any suggestion they
make, and it will be my most earnest desire to make such
alterations as they may wish to recommend. Still I
must say that I do not feel myself bound to submit to
the decision of this Committee, to the decision of any
Committee, to the decision of this House, or to the deci-
sion of any human being or beings, to do what I may
consider to be unjust and improper.—(Cheers.)—As to
what my Hoe. Friend has stated with respect to the sa-
laries of the present officers of the Household, I certainly
thought they were under the consideration of the Committee,
and that it was quite in the power of the Committee to
diminish those salaries in any manner they might
think proper. If the Committee on the subject of
the Civil List shall think fit to take them into
their consideration, it is competent for them to
do so, and any alteration they may suggest respecting
them, or any thing else I may not consider inconsistent
with justice, I shall give every assistance to in my power.
Mr. LENNARD had heard with great satisfaction
what had just fallen from his Noble Friend. It
accorded with the sentiments he had entertained
of the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer's conduct. He
for one had been greatly dissatisfied with the plan of the
Cis-4 List. His objection to it was not so much as
to the determination of Government to leave the pension
list untouched, as to the intention of the Govern-
ment to grant a private pension list. The people of this
country complained not so much of the waste of the
money (which God knew was bad enough), as to the
employment of that money in maintaining a corrupt
Government ; but the Hon. Member trusted that this '
would be greatly altered by the Reform measure about to he
brought forward. Nothing could be so objectionable
as to grant 75,0001. for the purpose of paying
private pensions—discharging pensions upon a book
which of course was to be closed to the public.
The Duchess of Newcastle having given up her
pension, which she ought not to have held one moment
beyond the death of her late husband, the very instant it
became known to the public, was a proof of the advantage
arising from publicity of these affairs. The Hon.
Member also deeply regretted that the salaries of our Am-
bassadors were not annually brought before the House,
but he hoped that this would soon be remedied.
Mr. RUTHVEN said the pensions were granted during
pleasure, therefore there was no legal technicality
in the way of depriving those persons who had
enjoyed pensions from the further receiving them,
The country was exceedingly disappointed with the Civil
List, and he should certainly press his motion, notice of
which he bad already given.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY was not going to enter into any dis-
cussion upon the salaries of the Ambassadors at present, but
that there might he no mistake he desired to make a
few observations. His Noble Friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had most distinctly stated that, though
he could not think the House could be irrevocably bound
by any suggestion of his, yet that he could not be bound '
by any recommendation of the Committee, and of
this House, which was not in his view according to strict
justice. After this, he (Mr. Ridley) could not but hope
the House would await with all the patience the im-
portance of the subjsct demanded, the decision of the
Committee both upon the Civil List and the salaries of
the great officers, for they might both be brought under the
consideration of the Committee. He trusted the House and
the public would suspend may impression that might,
be unfavourable to Ministers upon this important subject,
until the House had it fully laid before them.
Mr. HUNT said, that front what lead fallen from the
Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer this evening, in
conjunction with what the Right Hon. Member for
Cumberland stilts(' on Friday, it appeared to him they
thought that those who acted in opposition to what
was suggested or laid down by the Government,

' wished to have an unjust course adopted. He, as a rali-
cal reformer, and on behalf of all radical reformers in
England, and of the people who desired to have a re-
duction of the Civil List, begged most unequivocAllv
to state that they asked for nothing but strict justice. He
would not name, though he might, some of the persons
who stood upon the Pension List, as it would appear
invidious; but the people of Great Britain did
not conceive they received justice if large sums of money
were taken out of their pockets to be put int
the pockets of those who were already rich, and
did not require it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
himself had said he found names on that list that never
ought to have been there—if that were so, he would ask
any human being to say whether it would be consistent
with strict justice to let them remain there ?—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
certainly never intended to impute to any one that they
wished Government to adopt an unjust course, or that
they themselves wished to act unjustly. As lei
had said before he should be ready to bow to the decision
of the Committee in every thing be should not feel incon-
nistent with justice. As to the mode in which the pension
list was decided, it was said by an Hon. Friend opposite on
Frid ty night that he had mystified the subject. He (tho
Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer) hoped he had not;
but he should be perfectly ready to adopt a different ar-
rangement ; he should have no objection to any suggestion
that might be recommenaed.r.(Cheers.)