The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-17 00:00:00

with vast power, and if they hal neglected their duty, financial year began also at an earlier period. Before
they were now smarting for it. With such an expendi- the change made by Lord Althorp, the financial year
tuns the distress of the country could net be a matter of began on the s;h of January, now it began on the sth of
surprise.—(Much disorder prevailing in the House, the April. The Honourable Gentleman was therefore calls
Hon. Member complained that he could not hear ing on the Finance Minister of the present period to do
himself read, and humorously referred to a ludicrous more than the Finance Minister of former times,
mistake into which one of the Members of because he was now called on to state the financial
the Government had fallen during the debate, prospects of the year before it had begun. If the Hon.
the other night when a Right Honourable Gentleman referred to the experience of the last twelve
Baronet, according to his account, had fallen into a nap, or fifteen years, he would not find a single instance in
and bearing one exclamation from his (Mr. Hume's) which the income was stated before the estimates. No
lips, had put a construction upon his words which persons could be more anxious to effect any practical re-
were altogether foreign to their real meaning.) duction than the Government. They were now endea-
The Honourable Member then proceeded to continue vouring to revise the minor establishments, the estimates
reading an extract from a speech of Sir Robert Peel, in for which were not yet laid on the table of the House,
which the Right Hon. Baronet had called upon the with a view to making reductions in them. He was not
Ministry of the day to render a full account of the anxious to lay them before the House till they had as-
means from which they were to obtain the sup- certained what reductions were practicable consistently
plies before they were granted. He then con- with the efficient working of these establishments. lie
tinned to say that if he were to talk till four thought it would bo more satisfactory that he should
o'clock in the morning he could add nothing to the force state to the House the probable income and expenditure
of that appeal. He had now cited the authority of three when he felt himself enabled to do so, than that he
Ministers, Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and Lord should take that course when he could not state them
Althorp, all eminent men, and he sincerely trusted that with equal accuracy. They had been stated in general
the Government would now follow their example, and terms already. If that was all that his Hon. Friend re-
present a regular balance-sheet to the House, so mired, and that was all that he professed to require,
that its Members and the country at large might then he did not see the use of his motion; and in that
understand what they were about. If they re- sense he called on the House to reject it, in order that
fused, he should certainly divide the House; and he they might go into Committee of Supply. They could
called upon Hon. Gentlemen on all sides to support him. then, and not till then, properly discuss whether the es-
Mr. Hume then concluded by reading the motion of timates they proposed should bereduced or not.—(Hear.)
which he had given notice. Colonel SIBTHORP said that, although he was dis-
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said he had much pleasure posed to place but little confidence in the motion of the
in being able to second this proposition, believing that lion. Member for Montrose, seeing that he always sup-
it would tend to produce an economics; administration ported the Government, he would vote for his propotie
of the national finances. The course proposed was tion on the present occasion.
abundantly justified by a variety of reasons—amongst Mr. COBDEN said that the answer given by the
others, by what happened last session. In the last two Right Hon. Gentleman to the proposal of his Hon.
years there had been an increase of between nine and Friend was not a very satisfactory one. The Right Hon.
ten millions in the national debt. He entirely disap. Gentleman said that his Hon. Friend proposed what was
proved of the Chancellor of the Exchequer being al- impossible.
lowed to go on the Stock Exchange and sell portions of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
stock from time to time, to raise revenue. The only what he stated was that he could not give an accurate
light yet thrown on the present year's finances, was a account before the sth of April.
statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the debate Mr. COBDEN—But where was the necessity of
on Mr. Cobden's motion, that the income and the ex . voting the supplies before the sth of April?—(Cries of
penditure would probably be equal. He much " Hear, hear.") Even if it were impossible to postpone
doubted this ; he thought it more probable there them till after that period, they might at least have an
would be a great deficiency. Last year he had under- approximate statement as to the expenditure and
estimated the expenditure by 1,700,0001„ arising from sources of income before the sth of April.—(Elear,
three causes the Kafir war, the Irish distress, hear.) He wanted to have the whole estimate of ex-
and the excess on the navy estimates.---(Hear, hear.) penditure and income before them, but they did not
The Right Hon. Baronet had argued that, as these three get that. They got the army, navy, and ordnance
causes of deficiency were not likely to occur again, he estimates, but they had not got the miscellaneous esti-
should be able, by a reduction of about a million and a mates yet.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
half in the estimates, to meet the deficiency which would made use of one argument which seemed to him to be
necessarily arise from the cessation of the corn duties, very extraordinary—namely, that they probably might
the China money, and other causes. But was it not pro- be in a state of war--that the enemy's fleet might be
bable there would be a large extraordinary item for the ravaging the coasts—(, No, no," from the Chancellor of
war in India? Already there had been a vote of 50,0001. the Exchequer.) Certainly the, Hon. Gentleman made
for the Irish distress; and he found there was already use of that argument.--(No, >no.) Surely he did not
an excess on the navy estimates of 323,000/., of which misrepresent the Hon. Gentleman.
some explanation Would be required.—(Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—You do
The estimates, as they were called, were becoming less indeed.
and less an index to the actual expenditure. The navy Mr. COBDEN could not sec how he misrepresented
excess had risen in three years from about 140,0004 to his Right Hon. Friend, for he surely put the possible
343,000/.—(flear, hear.) It was a fact that in the last case of an enemy ravaging the coast. That was the
year about half a million had been spent on the first argument used by him. It assumed that after 33
navy estimates more than was voted.—(tlear, hear.) years of peace they were about to go to war. This con-
Though the 26th clause of the Appropriation Act allowed stant tendency of considering war as the normal state of
the sum voted for one item to be applied to another, it society was what he objected to.—(Hear, hear.) At
expressly said that the gross amount should not be ex- all events, while they were at peace, let them have the
ceeded. Hence ,the constitutional principle which en- advantage of peace.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Let
abled the House to control the expenditure was coo- them have at the beginning of the session the estimate
pletely set at nought.—(Hear, hear.) On 26th February, of what the income and expenditure were likely to be.
1847, the Secretary to the Admiralty had stated that Although he admitted that the affairs of the nation
9,000 men were to be enrolled in the deck-yard corps, at were different from those of an individual, inasmuch
a cost of 20,0001, and yet an extra sum of 50,0001. had as it might not be always in their power to confine
been spent on this item. Unless the House could devise the expenditure of a nation within its estimated income,
some method of preventing theseeurrence of this, it was yet, even in the affairs of a nation, the expenditure
no use their voting estimates at all; they might as well must in some measure be regulated by the income, be-
leave them to he voted by the Board of Admiralty them- cause there was a limit to the income of a nation.
selves.—(liesr, hear.) It was most important not to When the nation et large was calling out for a re-
allow the Government to run any more into debt; it was duction of expenditure, they ought to have the case
equally important, before voting the estimates, to have placed plainly before them; and if they had the whole
before them such a statement as the lion. Member for estimates before them, they would be the better able
Montrose now moved for. He was convinced that in to judge, by reference to the sources of income, whether
order to enable our productive interests to compete with they could fairly and legitimately vote the expenditure,
those of foreigners, tsome measure of real economy must than they could when they were in total ignorance
be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) where the income was to come from.—(Hcar, hear)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he The Right Hon. Gentleman knew from fortnight to
was aware that the discussions on the estimates were fortnight what the progress of the income was—
generally of a very discursive character, and that it was he know what the progress of the Excise and Customs
difficult to confine them to the precise question before was. It appeared to him that it was for the House
the House. He would not follow the two Hon. Mem- and country also to know, as far as possible, the state
bers in some of these topics which they ha 4 introduced, of the national resources. Surely there was nothing
and which were not necessary to the motion, to which he unreasonable in that. He did not propose to embarrass
would confine himself as much as possible. This was Government, or to throw any impediment or inconve-
not a new proposition of the Hon. Member for Montrose; nience in their way, by refusing to vote money on ac
he had frequently called on the House to reverse that count. He hoped, therefore, his Hon. Friend would
which, so tar as he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) press his motion, and, if unsuccessful now, he trusted he
knew had been the immemorial practice on those oeca- would move at another time a substantive motion, that on
sions; and certainly the longer he remained in the all future occasions before the vote of supply an approxi.
House the more was he convinced of the wisdom of those mate estimate should be given of the income and expen.
rules for the conduct of its business which had been diture of the country.—(Hear.)
laid down in former times, and had been sanctioned by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the experience of successive Parliaments. The rule his Hon. Friend had misrepresented what he said—no
that no vote should bo proposed in ways and means doubt unintentionally. He put the case of war merely
until justified by a previous vote in supply, was as an illustration, without the slightest reference to the
founded in good sense; and when the estimates present or any other time, to show bow impossible it
prepared by the different departments had been would be under certain circumstances to carry out the
voted, it then became the duty of the Chancellor of the course proposed for adoption by the Hon. Member for
Exchequer to submit to tho House the ways and means Montrose.
by which he proposed to meet that expenditure. It Mr. HUME said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman
would be a sorry answer, at a time when an enemy's had read his resolution he-would see that he did not ask
cruisers wore interrupting our trade in the channel, and for an accurate account. There was the instance of
threatening to invade our shores, to tell those who Lord Althorp in 1834, and, subsequently, of Mr. Goul-
claimed protection, that inasmuch as the customs revenue burn, for the course he proposed.
was falling off, it was impossible adequately to protect The House then divided, when there appeared—
our trade, or our shores. He doubted very much For the motion... 48
whether such a refusal would tend to prevent the revenue Against it ...
97
from falling still further. The Hon. Member for Mon- Majority
trose had drawn a comparison between the management The House then went into Committee of Supply.
of public and private revenues. There was a great dif NAVY ESTIMATES.
ference between the cases; and in one point they were Mr. WARD said that for reasons sufficiently obvious,
not only not analogous, but diametrically opposed to he deferred making any observations in answer to the
each other. When a man found his income increasing, speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Wil-
he might be justified in spending more freely; but it bad loughby) till he commenced making his general state-
always been laid down in that House, and he held the ment to the Committee. In his main observations he
doctrine strongly, that no improvement in the revenue (Mr. Ward) entirely concurred. There was much truth
would justify unnecessary expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) in the observation that if an excess in the naval expendi-
The Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had ture was to occur perpetually from year to year,
laid this down as strongly as a man could do, in the very the estimates could not fairly be regarded as
speech in which he announced a surplus revenue of five a just criterion of the national expenditure,
millions—he said he did not consider that that surplus and that the House of Commons was not only
justified him in calling on the House to vote a single six- entitled to call for an
,explanation of that excess, but
pence of expenditure beyond that whichthe strictest ne- even not to allow it to pass without animadversion, if it
cessities of the country required. Would the Hon. Morn- could not be satisfactorily explained. The present was
her for Montrose, after effecting certain reductions in his the third vote that he moved since he became Secretary
domestic expenditure, go to his tenants and say: to the Amiralty, and he might say the first for which
" Having done this, I can now afford to reduce your the present board were entirely responsible. There was
rents, and I will not call upon you in liana) for what first the excess of 185,000/, for the years 1845-6. This
you have hitherto paid, and which you can fairly and must be considered rather in the light of a supplemen-
justly pay?" Yet, that was the course which it was tary vote than an excess. It was an addition to the
evidently the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to navy estimates sanctioned under peculiar circumstances
pursue with regard to the income of the country. If that by the Treasury, and of which the present Board of
income were at any time more than sufficient to cover Admiralty knew nothing. The money was expended
the expenditure, leaving a fair margin, it would be the before the present Government came into office, and the
imperative duty of the minister of the day to propose Hon Gentleman opposite and the then Chancellor of the
some remission of taxation, and thus reduce the revenue Exchequer would, he had no doubt, assign sstisfac-
to that which was actually necessary to cover the expen- tory reasons for that 'excess. Then for the excess
diture. Here again the circumstances which would de- of the year 1846-7, the present Board of Admiralty
termine the course of an individual, were in direct oppo. were only partially responsible, because the money
ethat
sition to those which should determine the course to be was ' raised upon the estimate of their prede-
pursued in public affairs. In those instances in which cessors in office. Then came the excess of' 1847.8,
the financial statement had been made at an early period amountingrspsibl to 87
of the session, it had always been when it was proposed and the first for which the present board were excht-
either to impose or to continue a large amount of taxa.- sively e
lion; and the necessity of that course arose, not from he did not at all desire to underrate. He admitted
responsible, 3;n3d thel.—aweight large
f excess
responsibilityundoubtedly,
the mere ordinary events of the year. but as a justifica- the force of the argument urged by the Hon. Gentle.
tion of the measure proposed by the Government of the man opposite against this unsatisfactory system. He
day in reference to a large amount of taxation. In 1845, thought that votes of this sort might be explained and
it was done because the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. excused, but could never be entirely justified,—(Hear,reel) then proposed the continuance of the income-tax, hear.) The House was prepared for the part of an ex-
which would otherwise have terminated on the sth cess for twelve months, though not to the amount which
April. In 1842, the Right Hon- Baronet made his resulted at the end of the year. lie stated in the House
statement on the 11th of March, when he proposed to ira- and more at largo before the Committee that the causes
pose the income-tax. The Noble Lord now at the head of of this excess were three: the first was the increase in
the Government had made a financial statement last the wages of seamen, which made a difference to the
session at an early period, when he was again under the amount of 70,3241.; the second was that they had an
necessity of proposing a continuance of the income-tax, average of 3,969 men more on the books than had been
With those three exceptions, the Hon. Member might voted.—(Hear, hear.) The cost on this account was
go back to 1831, and he would find only one case in:which 245,0001. in 1847.8, as compared with 123,0001. for the
the financial statement had been made at an early year 1846-7. The third cause was on account of vic-
period of the session. If ho would refer to 1835, the tuals, clothing, and medical stores; the amount of that
year about which so much had been 'said in connexion estimate was 308,8641. In addition to this there was the
with financial matters, he would find that the statement cost of the dockyard battalions. The estimate on this
was made on the 14th August. Lord Althorp, when head was in the first instance conjectural, because they
making his financial etatement on the 14th February, could not know how many men would enter into these
had said—" Though I thus early invite the attention of battalions, as it was to be purely voluntary en-
the House and the public to the subject, it is impossible trance on the part of the men. The list had been filled
to do it in any but a general manner. It will be quite in up much more rapidly than they anticipated. The
vain for me to attempt anything like accuracy as to the list being thus filled up, the Government considered they
amounts of expenditure in the ensuing year. Yet the would take the most economical mode of proceeding, if
Hon. Member for Montrose now called for an adequate they made arrangements at once for their organization,
return of the probable amount of expenditure in the en- drilling, and clothing. The latter, which was a most
suing year. And it should be remembered that the esti- expensive item, would be the last for five years. The
mates of the three great services had already been laid on total excess on this ground was 52,0004 If they erred
the table of the House, and had been some time in the in respect to these dockyard battalions he could only ex.
hands of Hon. Members; these formed nine-tenths or press his regret, but the step taken by them was only in
more of the whole expenditure. He had already stated, conformity with the feeling of the country at the time.
in general terms, that the probable amount of the miscel- With regard to the first cause, many elements of uncer-
laneous estimates would not fall very far short of those tainty entered into it, because men who entered the seta
of last year ; and he had also stated, at an vice three or four years ago might only be receiving
early period of the session, what would be the their wages in the current financial year ; and the Ad.
probable expenditure of the year. The principle miralty found it extremely difficult to deal with that
which had been laid
,down by the Right Honourable matter.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the second cause
Gentleman the Member for Stamford ( [lorries) in —the allowing a greater number of men on the books
the report which he had made to the Finance Committee than had been voted—that he admitted to be the root of
of 1828 was the sound one, namely, that their first step all the evil. The great thing to be guarded against was
should be to ascertain the narrowest limits within which any excess in the number of men.—("llQar, hear," from
the annual charges for the public service could be con- Mr. Hume.) He did not mean that in the sense in
fined, and after voting the estimates, to state the means which his Hon. Friend perhaps understood it; but, at all
for meeting the necessary expenditure. Such was the events, it was the great thing to be guarded against.
Principle that always regulated the proceedings of the The present board had given orders for a very large re-
House. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman duction of men three months after they came into office,
that it was their duty to ascertain the narrowest limits when there was an average of 3,436 above the number
within which the expenditure of the country, consistently voted. But then came the Irish relief service, the dis-
with its best interests, could be reduced. He, therefore, turbances in New Zealand, the Kafir war, the detention
invited the Hon. Gentleman to go into the discussion on of ships in the Rio de la Plata, the disturbances in China
the estimates, which was the best test for the oxaendi. and Borneo, in consequence of which the commanders
turn. Ile could assure him the Government were ready at these stations felt themselves obliged to retain the full
to listen to the propositions that any non. Gentleman complement of their vessels. The number of men above
might make for a reduction of expenditure. They the number voted for 1847-8 was on the let of March
were prepared fairly to discuss the estimates, and to 5,300, the next month 4,778, next month 3,717, and the
state their reasons for the amounts which they proposed. following month 4,134. The expenses connected with
He could now only repeat the assurance he gave on a that single demand for the Irish service were almost in-
former occasion, that the expenditure for the year— calculable. At one period there were on the coast one
assuming that the miscellaneous estimates were of the flag-ship, eight receivin
same amount as last year—would be within the income thirty-one steam-vcsselsg-ships, three troop-ships, and
five colliers and tenders, one
of the country. The Honourable Gentleman said that naval transport, and two sailing.frigates. There were
last year there were various financial statements made. in all fifty-one vessels, with 3,100 men, besides a bat-
They had, last year, endeavoured in every way to re- talion of marines stationed at Spike Island. The
duce the estimates, and Committees had been appointed price of coals rose from an average' of 16s. to 21. per
because during the whole of that fearful period
mtoakcoinngsidtheerirthflenaenxcipaelndsitatuterem.entT, hweerGeovoehrinigmedentto, afterwaiton,t
there was no such thing as a return cargo to be ola.
the result of the inquiries instituted, and as soon as tamed, and freights were consequently doubled. All
they ascertained to what extent they could make reduc• these expenses had gone to swell that excess for which
tions, they made new estimates accordingly. when the the Government were justly held responsible. No doubt
Honourable Gentleman said that in former periods the the Treasury had paid a !portion of that extra expense;
financial statement was made earlier in the year than butit was not a large portion, for there were few persons
was the practice at present, he should recollect that ;he with wheal he less desired to settle an account thait his