The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

id omno wm /14' ItsoAv EVMNYINtiA .AY _6s 4045•

tries on the other vide of the Channel, namely, of the'
repeated voyages of .steam• vessels between this country
and America, and also the steam -boat communication
between the United States and Canada through the lakes.
lie did not rot an to impute to Mr. Porter any other
design in snaking these representatiiis than that which
led an individual,' who was an enthusiast in any cause,
to hazard extraordinary assertions in support of it.—
(Hear, hear.) Much had been said with regard to the
indirect trade. That trade consisted only of fragments
of voyages. For example, a vessel which was on its
way to Odessa would stop at Turkey and then proceed
on its course. Such voyages were not entire trans-
actions—they were only incidental to the greater
ones. It was said that by opening this trade they
would obtain a share in a future trade. In point of fact
they were promised a share of that of which they had
now the entirety.—(Hear.) If the Bill were passed, the
vessels of this country would, by the Ist of January
next, be brought into immediate competition with those
of every other country in the world, and he did not know
how it was possible by that period to obtain equivalent
advantages. He fully admitted the difficulties which
surrounded the case as regarded the colonies, and that
was the only question which had caused him the least
hesitation on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It was, how-
ever, admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that the
grievance of Canada might be redressed by other means
than the repeal of the navigation-laws.--(Hear.) Look-
ing at the question as one which involved tree trade, the
di fences of the country, and therefore its very existence,
he could not be a party to the repeal of the navigation-
laws; and he must, therefore, support the amendment of

his Noble Friend.
Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said he wished
it to be understood that in what he had stated respecting
Mr. Cardwell he had not the slightest wish to assail that
respectable gentleman. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord was proceeding to give a detail of circum-
stances explanatory of what he had referred to, when
Earl GREY reminded the Noble and Learned Lord
that he had risen simply in explanation.
Lord BROUGHAM said that was true; but when a
gentleman was blamed for misrepresenting another he
was allowed a large latitude in explanation. The Noble
and Learned Lord then gave a detail of the circum-
stances attending the election of Mr. Cardwell for Liver-
pool, as justifying him in the extent he had gone iu the
observations he had made respecting that gentleman.
He had thought it right, he added, to say so much in
explanation of the matter, on the ground that as it was
right "to let well alone," it was sometimes right to leave
ill alone, for fear it should be made worse.—(Laughter.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE and several Peers rose at the
same time, but being loudly called for the latter gave
way, and his Lordship proceeded. They were not to
look on the question us one standing by itself, but rather
as one connected with the defences of the country, and
they should not give it their support unless they could
satisfy themselves that the repeal of the navigation-
laws would not endanger the naval supremacy of the
country.—(flear, hear.) The Noble Lord here referred
to a statement which he said had been made, that five
per cent. of the whole number of men in the royal navy
were taken from the merchant service; but he found that
assertion had been completely refuted, and that there
was not less than one-half supplied from the mercantile
marine to the royal navy; and he would here observe
that there was no possibility of denying the argument
that the supremacy of the naval power was mixed up
with the upholding of the mercantile navy.
—(Hear, hear.) The real and essential question
which they had to deal with was, whether in repeal-
ing these laws they were withdrawing that support
from those who upheld the naval system of the country,
to which they were entitled, and which it was necessary
they should have. There was some difficulty in dealing
with the question. If they referred to the evidence on
the subject, they found it was lull of the most conflicting
statements.--(Hear, hear.) It was of importance to see
the light in which the question was viewed by foreign
countries. It appeared that the Noble Lard the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) had
directed the Ministers of this country to make inquiries
of foreign powers, so as to ascertain the feeling that ex-
isted on the subject. First, as regarded Belgiem, they
found it was admitted by that country that no Belgian
vessel could compete with British. With regard to
America, there was no reasonable doubt of our ships
being able to compete with those of that country. It
was unquestionable that on almost every item, except
that of timber, the American shipbuilder had to pay
dearer than the English shipbuilder; and even
the timber itself was only obtainable cheaper in
some of the American ports. Another important fact
with regard to the northern countries of Europe was
this, that though they had the power of building vessels
much cheaper than us, the greater part of those built
in Sweden and Norway were built expressly for the
timber trade, and were unfit for anything else. On
other questions precisely the same assurances of the
impossibility of our competing with foreign nations had
been made; and they had uniformly received a complete
falsification. At one time the linen trade of Ireland
was protected and encouraged by bounties ; when these
bounties were removed nothing less than ruin to the
trade was anticipated ; but since that time the flax-
growing and linen-manufacturing districts of Ireland
had been among the most prosperous. Again, when the
bounty was taken off the export of what were called
long wools, it was said the trade would be thrown en-
tirely into the hands of foreigners ; but notwithstand-
ing the alteration our own trade had gone on Increasing.
In 1824 the same predictions were made in refer-
ence to the silk manufacturer ; it was said that by ad-
mitting French silks we should completely destroy our
own trade, and that it was impossible for our manufac-
turers to compete successfully with those of France.
What had been the result? In 1823, the year before
the change, the raw silk imported into this country for
consumption was only about 2,400,0001b5., while in 1847
it was 4i millions. The value of the silk manufactures
actually exported from this country was, in 1832,
529,000/. declared value; while in 1847, notwithstanding
a great decrease in the value of the article, it was
948,0001. Finding that such had been the result of all
these gloomy predictions, their Lordships would be
justified in disregarding them, if not in treating them as
absolutely false.—(Hear, hear.) When they heard
strong opinions expressed by the witnesses before the
Coaamittees, they were justified in looking at the cha-
racter and occupation of those witnesses, and in some cases
it would appear their evidence was not quite so conclu-
sive as might be supposed. A Mr. Coker, a merchant
of Liverpool, had been examined before their Lordships'
Committee with respect to competition between this
country and America; and he said, "I consider that the
Americans, taking them as a people, are far superior to
Englishmen."—(Hear, hear.) Not content with this, he
added that emigrants from this country, transferred to
the American soil, improved in bodily condition.—
(Laughter.) He (Lord Wharncliffe) absolutely rejected
this assertion; he believed no such thing. If there was
one feature in the question more important than an-
other, it. was the effect of the reciprocity treaties.
The Noble Lord having read a statement of the amount
of British tonnage in the ten years previous to the
reciprocity treaties, and ten years subsequently, said
it was quite clear that whatever effect the navigation-
laws might have had before those treaties were con-
cluded, the same causes would have produced the
same effect after they were concluded. There had
been a constant and gradual increase in the navigation
of this country; and the fair presumption was, that
if they relaxed the system still further, they would reap
still further advantages from it. They were not only
justified, but called upon, by every feeling of justice and
policy, to remove unnecessary restrictions, and upon that
ground he supported this Bill. The point in it on which
he felt the greatest difficulty was the 10th clause, em-
powering her Majesty to restrict the privilege of foreign
ships in certain cases. He saw an objection to that
course, and thought that an easier one might be adopted;
but he did not on that account consider himself justified
in opposing the Bill. Looking to the dispatch of Lord
Palmerston of December 22, in the papers, laid before
them, he took it for granted that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would see that in relaxing the navigation-laws for
the benefit of toreigu. shipping the same advantages
would be secured to this country. Although not satis-
fied with the prospective alteration in the 10th clause,
yet, with the confidence he telt in the intention with
which it had been inserted, he should, at this stage, give
his support to the Bill. He again entreated their Lord-
ships to watch narrowly all the bearings of the proposi-
tion which by this stage of the Bill they were now called
on to affirm; and whilst they regarded it as a great ex-
perimental measure, the necessity for which he was not
prepared to say could be altogether disproved, to re-
member that it was one in the peculiar operation of
which the welfare and stability of British interests of the
most extensive and important character were deeply in-
volved. For the reason, however, he bad assigned, he
felt himself bound to vote for the aecondreading.—(Cries
of " Question.")

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY regarding this Bill
as one of the most dangerous experiments ever intro-
duced into the House, he had risen to give it his strenu-
ous opposition.
Earl GREY said, that in rising to enforce upon the
House, to the best of his ability, the importance of the
measure which was now beforo it, he would endeavour,
as briefly as he could, to set before their Lordships the
grounds on which this measure was founded.—(Hear.)
He must acknowledge that his own confidence in the
soundness of these principles, and in the merits of the
Bill now submitted to the judgment of their Lordships,
had been greatly increased by the whole text of this
evening's debate. For, notwithstanding the great array
of talent which had been marshalled against this mea-
sure by its opponents, and the ability displayed in
resisting the motion, no one who had carefully
listened to the speeches which had been delivered by
Noble Lords in opposition to the Bill could have failed
to perceive how large a proportion of the matter they
comprised had been utterly irrelevant to the main ques-
tion that had been submitted for their Lordship's consi-
deration, and how much of the remainder of them had
been singularly vague, and wanting in precision and di-
rectness of statement.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships from
one Noble Speaker had heard a disquisition on the
present, aspect of foreign affairs, and the management
of our foreign relations, whilst from a Noble and
Learned Lord they had heard an eloquent statement
of the most secret counsels that must have guided the
present Republican Government of France in the policy
it had pursued towards Italy,—(A laugh, and cries of
" Hear.") The Noble and Learned Lord had talked as
if the real designs of the Republic and its President in
dispatching an army thither had been distinctly stated
to him. lie (Earl Grey) was bound to suppose that
this must have been the case from the unhesitating man-
ner in which the Noble and Learned Lord had endea-
vouredotfhtahtastoamremyp.,asrdtieesstminiagthiotne,natenrd-
taiu as to
been done to the Noble and Learned
this honour had
this
the probable results of its being so dispatched. But if
allowed to say that it
to make for it to promulgate
to
was but a sorry return
ilou•e any confidence that had been so
tahlei a
realth e
objecte,rs
publicly to that
(Laughter and cheers.) Their
entrusted to him.—
he (Earl Grey) must be
both tides, great deal about
Lordships Lord have heard, on

the extreme importance of maintaining our commercial
marine, and the danger of any
measure calculated to
weaken or diminish an arm so essential to the welfare
and power of this nation.—(Hear, hear.) On this last
point he, for one, could only say that he was not
aware what was the ground on which any apprehen-
sion was based of any such danger to that commercial
marine.—(hear, hear.) He sincerely believed, that in the
event of this Bill passing, our commercial marine, of all
the other national interests of the country, would be
that whose stability it would most contribute to.—(Hear.)
But the whole question before the House really was,
whether the measure now before their Lordships was
calculated to produce those effects which her Majesty's
Ministers, in bringing it forward proposed to realise
from it, or those which its adversaries supposed would
certainly flow from it. All the declamation the House
had heard from Noble Lords on so great a variety of
other topics—(much as it was calculated to gratify their
Lordships by the opportunity it afforded to Noble
speakers to display their great oratorical talent)—was
beside the real question. As to all other grounds on
which the matter now under discussion had been opposed
—they were but so much matter out of place—so much
breath thrown away—so much gunpowder blazed away
where there was no enemy to direct it against—so much
in tact of the time of that House (as tar as any practical
object or business was concerned) wasted.—( Hear, hear.)
He must repeat, then—for it was of great im-
portance to bear in mind the simple point raised by the
motion tor the secoud reading—that the only question
their Lordships were called to pronounce upon was,
whether or not the measure proposed was calculated to
benefit and advance the great interests cf this commer-
cial country. He was prepared to prove that it would
give strength and stability to that mercantile marine
by the passing of the measure before the House. But
when it was contended that such a measure would put in
jeopardy its future prosperity, and that of the other
great interests inseparably connected with it, he begged
Noble Lords to recollect that the system of laws which
it went to repeal was, in fact,
but a fragmentary one,
for a large portion of those navigation laws was repealed
by Mr. Huskisson in 1821 and 1827. He could not
doubt that our countrymen would prove themselves just
as well able to cope with foreign competition at sea—
which heretofore had been proverbially considered the
home of Englishmen as on land; and in all that
regarded a mercantile marine, they would establish the
same superiority over all rivalry, as their industry and
enterprise had long since established with regard to ma-
nufactures. The Noble Earl then proceeded to re-
mark that it had been his fortune ever since he first
occupied a position in the House of Commons—now,
unhappily for him, very many years ago, as far back as
1821—to hoar arguments against measures like the pre-
sent so exactly similar to those which had been brought
forward that night, that they might very well have
passed, notwithstanding the difference of dates, for
thoseh ea
r.) wFhoi cr h
et hx ea
mpresentn
ImBo2t6i
-02n7,h a
pd r ee lie icsiet
led .
yth
e( Ha r
samee ,
arguments were raised in the speeches then uttered in
opposition to Mr. Huskisson's measures. And it was
really marvellous, after the crushing refutation they had
at that time received in the answers given to them
by that great man, that they should now be resuci-
tated, when it might have been reasonably ima-
gined that they had been all of them laid for ever at rest.
The difficulty which he felt in arguing this question was
to meet antagonists who were inconsistent and indis-
tinct. If they told him in what respect the navigation
laws advantaged British shipowners, he should know
how to meet them; but, in the absence of that, he could
only refer to the provisions of the law, and ask which of
them it was that was so desirab).e. Did the British ship-
owner gain much from that provision which prohibited
the importation of the produce of Asia, Africa, or
America, from any port in Europe? It was to him
utterly incomprehensible in what way a law could bene•
fit the shipowners of this country, which said that an
American ship might bring the produce of New Orleans
to England; but that an English ship should not bring
it from Havre. What did the shipowner gain by a law
which said he should not, in a British ship, bring Bra-
zilian rosewood from Hamburgh, but, when it was
made into furniture, the Dutch ship might bring it?
That was not protection to the British shipowner,
but to the German furniture-maker. It was a restric-
tion bearing equally upon our own shipping and the
shipping of foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) Another
provision was very much of the same character, which
prohibited the importation of certain enumerated arti-
cles being the produce of Europe, except in our own
ships, or in the ships of the country of which those!
articles were the produce. Now, upon what principle!
was the enumeration settled ? It appeared to him to be
very much like chance. Why one article was to be
prohibited and another not, he could not see. They pro-
hibited masts, tar, oils, corn or grain, and a variety of
other articles; but while they prohibited corn or grain,
they admitted flour. In the same way the whole range
or Hamburgh, in the ships of any
import from France
goods.the principle
But
nation, any manufactured
of foreign manufactures was not touched, for they might
.
hed
ablis that
Then, again, the rule was established hear.)
were good, why not extend it ? And again, he asked,
on what grounds was the enumeration made ?—(Hear,
we were to import the majority of goods either
in British ships or in ships of the country of which they
were the produce. On what principle was that prohi-
bition made? Did that secure the British shipowner
from competition? Not at all. In importing corn from
Dantzic we were left in full competition with the Prus-
sian shipowner. So, in importing from America, we
were left to compete with American ships. In fact, in
every case, we were left to compete with that rival whom
we bad the most reason to fear. The perversity of such
a law he could not understand. It left the shipowner
exposed to full competition with America between New
York and England, but saved him from competition with
the America between Dantzic and England.—(Hear.)
These were the main provisions of the navigation-laws.
There was very little else in them; and those were what
bo now called on their Lordships to alter. Those
provisions might be right,t
slightestthan tb
at, the protectionshi
but, at all events, he totally denied that they afforded
h
shipowners
eeorsr they
haßritishd mightis
ashd ipsoow
themselves,
. wrong;An
moree
because, when it was a question of reciprocity, they
always said " if you allow that, we shall be exposed to
complete competition; we shall be utterly ruined, and
there will be an end to British shipping." That was what
was said 20 and 25 years
ago. Fortunately, however,
the affairs of this :country were directed by men who
knew the interests of the shipowners much better than
they knew their own; for if they had had their
own way they would have impeded and restricted
commerce, and by compelling each country to send
out in ballast to its neighbour, in order to bring
back the produce in her own ships, they would have been
making two ships do the work of one. Would that, he
asked, have been a benefit to the shipowner ?
These capricious restrictions upon our own shipping,
as well as on the shipping
of foreigners, were what
really constituted the navigation-laws. To say that we
should lose nothing by repealing those laws—to say
that there was no possible danger in removing these re-
strictions—was, as it appeared to him, greatly under-
stating the fact. What he said Was, that the British
shipowner was deeply interested in getting rid of these
laws with the least possible delay.—(Hear, hear.) Let
him remind them that the Noble Earl the Vice• Pres-
ident of the Board of Trade told them on the previous
night that the great part of the wealth of this country
arose from our warehousing system. But were they
ignorant that if they retained these laws upon
the statute-book, the warehousing system must be
destroyed ?—(Hear, hear.) If foreign nations ap-
plied to us the principles of monopoly involved in
that barbarous and disgraceful statute—for so he must
term it—the warehousing
system was at an end. We
refused to take from Hamburgh, or from Rotterdam, or
any great continental port, the produce of Asia, Africa,
or America. If the same principle were applied to us,
our warehousing system would be ruined. In the same
way we refused to allow foreign shipping to be engaged
in the indirect trade of this county—we would
not allow
a Russian ship to bring American goods to this country;
but if the same rule were applied to us, it would be de-
structive of that indirect trade which was of such import-
ance to us. We would no longer be able to carry sugar
from Rio to St. Petersburgh. The Noble Earl (Earl of
Harrowby) spoke in a contemptuous tone about " frag-
merits of voyages." But our ships would not be able
to compete with Russian ships in bringing corn from
Odessa, without those fragments of voyages. How did
we de it. however ? We took out a cargo, perhaps of
coals, or of some other not very profitable cargo, to Con •
stantinople, or Malta, or somewhere in the Mediterra-
nean, where again we got some small freight, at a low
charge, to Odessa, and thus assisted we were able to
bring corn from Odessa; but, under other circumstances,
if we had to go out direct to Odessa in ballast, it would
be impossible for us to bring anything from that port, in
competition with Russian ships.---(Hear.) Russia had
already passed a law by which the ships of foreign na-
tions coming to her ports were to be exposed to the same
restrictions to which her ships were subjected by the
law of thosenations. For the present, the treaty which we
had with Russia relieved us from the operation of the
Russian law. That treaty would expire in 1853; and
when it expired, we knew that Russia would apply to
us the same rule we applied to her: we should lose this
indirect trade, which was of so much value; we should
singsyofst ourem: trade. It was the same
which was one of the
cmuati
nu
propsp th e warehousing
supportsh o u
with Germany, Austria, the United States, and various
other countries. What we gave to them we should have
in return. It might surprise some of their Lordships
that it was this statute which was the main difficulty in
competing with the American shipowner. By the law
of the United States, the ships of all foreign countries
which subjected them to certain restrictions were not
allowed to carry to the ports of the United States
any produce but their own. This law being in force,
we came within the nations to which this prohibi-
tion of the United States applied ; we could carry
nothing to the United States but our own produce: we
could not make up an assorted cargo. The United States
were crippled in their power of assorting cargoes. A
ship coming from America had comparatively little in-
terest in assorting her cargo. In nine cases out of ten
the cargo of a ship from America to this country was
made up of bulky goods, cotton and flour, the produce
of the United States herself. In the trade the other way
the question was entirely altered. The trade to America
consisted principally of manufactured articles of various
kinds, and every gentleman who had considered the
commercial question was well aware that in sending
out manufactured goods, the whole profit depended on
the power of assorting a cargo. At this moment,
in a very important branch of the trade between
America and this country, an immense advantage
was conferred on America. Their Lordships were
aware that America had lately established steam-
packets between New York. and this country. He
was informed, and he believed the information to be
perfectly correct, that one great advantage which the
American steam-boat had over tjse British, was that the
articles that paid best in the steam navigation to Ame-
rica were articles of taste and millinery. They went
almost entirely by steam, and he WAS told that, in the

power of making up their assorted cargo by various
articles of Paris taste, the trade which the American
steamers carried on was a very material advantage to
the e mntry, He could point out to their Lordships that
in many other cases the law as it now stood was a pro-
tection, not to the British shipowner, but to foreign in-
terests. In the course of a very short time, by the Act
of Parliament now in force, the duties upon sugar from
all parts of the world to this country would be
equal. The moment that took place Jamaica would
have no more interest in importing sugar here
than other parts of the world. The moment that took
place it would be of great advantage to the Jamaica
planter, when his sugar was in London, that he should
go to any port that was the best—Hamburgh or else-
where—to receive a better price, but he would not be
allowed to do so. He trusted he had succeeded in show-
ing their Lordships that as far as the home trade was
concerned, the restrictions on the statute-book were no
real protection to British ships. He would now come to
what he considered to be the strongest part of the case
in favour of the Bill before their Lordships, he meant its
bearing upon the colonial interest; and, in the firs: place.
let him mention that the law as regarded the colonies
was different from the old navigation-law. Foreign ships
could not carry goods from one colony to another, or
from one of the colonies to Enelaud. la certain cases
foreign countries were not allowed to trade in their own
ships to British colonies, and in other cases only in British
ships. These were the main provisions of the existing law.
Now he must point out the evils which the law entailed,
and, in so doing, however, he was so anxious to
avoid trespassing longer than was necessary, that he
should confine his attention almost exclusively to one
case, and that was the case of Canada. And he most
earnestly entreated their Lordships to consider what
that case really was. Their Lordships were aware that
the most important articles of the produce of Canada
were now exposed to free competition in the markets of
this country; they knew that the main artieles which
she was capable of supplying, corn and flour, com-
peted principally with the United States. Canada
possessed one out of three great lines of internal
navigation, communicating with the interior of the
American continent. Canada had within the last year,
at very heavy expense, improved the natural line of water
communication by the St. Lawrence to the great western
lakes. Those works were now completed; ships and ves-
sels of very considerable size could go from Quebec to a
point on the great western lakes without transmitting
their cargoes, and in a very short space of time. It was
a question whether the produce not only of Canada, but
of the western states of America, should be sent by this
line to Europe, or by the Erie Canal. Their Lordship
would find from the papers on the table that freight from
England to Quebec was 60 cents for a barrel of flour, and
to New York it was 101 cents; that the time taken from
England to Quebec was six days, to New York sixteen
days. What was it raised the freights of the st. Law-
rence, and practically destroyed the advantages which
Canada otherwise enjoyed? What raised those freights
were the restrictions imposed by the Act of Parliament
which he now called on their Lordships to repeal.
If those restrictions were not reserved for the pur-
poseo f
C of
for
r enhancingo?
Hecontended that the freights, w h
theat weret
they
reserved depression
protection, but by the capriciousness of our Legisla-
turean was occasioned, not by the removal of
since. They were bound now, having removed
protection, to give the Canadians compensation for
any advantages it afforded by opening to them the com-
petition of every nation for the carriage of their goods.
Noble Lords opposite would not venture to propose the
restoration of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) No,
whatever might be said outside to delude the farmers,
the Noble Lord opposite would not make any proposi-
tion in that House for its restoration. Well, if they
were not prepared to do this, and no one attempted to
move a finger for the purpose, they were bound to give
the Canadians every relief in their power by passing the
present Bill. He thought be had shown their Lordships
that the claim of Canada was strong in justice; be be-
lieved he could also show them that they were strong in
policy and prudence.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships had
no doubt read the papers which had been laid on the
table by command of her Majesty, and could
not have tailed to perceive the strong evidence
they contained of the feeling existing in Ca-
nada. The Canadians were fully aware of the claim
they had on Parliament; they knew it was net a claim
upon favour, but a claim founded on the strictest
justice. The whole province was united as one man
upon that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He had already
mentioned a letter signed by the most eminent house in
Montreal, addressed to the Board of Trade. The Council
of the Board had asked for the restoration of protection,
but these gentlemen, in this most remarkable document,
asked for entire free trade. They argued, with an
ability which did them the highest credit, against any
attempt to restore protection. But this was not all. He
begged to refer the House to what was a most authentic
expression of the feeling of Canada. At the commence-
ment of the colonial session, both Houses of Parliament
agree to address her Majesty for a repeal of the naviga-
tion laws.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that an amend-
ment was moved—not an amendment to leave out any
portion of the address ; not striking out the repeal of
the navigation-laws, but asking, in addition, for the re-
storation of protection.—(Protectionist cheers.) Yes, but
that ,amendment was decided in the negative by a
large majority. Their assembly would not include in
the address any prayer for the restoration of protection.
—(Hear.) The amendment having been thus disposed
of, the address, as originally framed, was adopted by the
Assembly without a division.—(Hear, hear.) He would
only trouble their Lordships with one more document as
to the state of feeling in Canada. It was a paper which
had been laid on the table during the previous session,
and dated the 15th of June, from Canada. The writer
stated that the approaching repeal of the navigation•laws
had been hailed with acclamation in the colonies, but
subsequently a fear had arisen that the measure would
be lost in its passage through Parliament. This had
produced a most painful feeling in the colony, as the
Canadian farmer felt that he was entitled to this mea-
sure not as a matter of favour but of justice. He did
not hesitate to declare it to be his firm opinion that, if
their Lordships decided upon rejecting the present mea-
sure, their decision would be attended with the most
serious effects in Canada. They all knew that the con-
nexion of Great Britain with that colony could not be
maintained on other than terms of the mast perfect
commercial equality. But if that connexion was
sacrificed, it was not only Canada that would be lost
to England, but the great naval arsenal of
llalifax also; and, when some of their Lord-
ships were talking of the importance of the
naval position of the United Kingdom, he must
beg leave to remind them that the loss of Halifax was a
matter worthy of some consideration in that point of
view. The Canada' must be held by ties of friendship
and mutual interest or they must be relinquished, for it
was by obtaining a hold on the cordial affections of
those colonists that England could alone hope to pre-
serve them. He could not too earnestly impress upon
their Lordships' minds that the terms which he had
stated were those alone upon which the connexion of
England with the Canadas could be kept up. He begged
to remind their Lordships also that the Earl of Elgin
had correctly stated in his dispatches that the Canadians
notwithstanding all their disputes, had with common
accord—the French joining with the English portion of
the population—cordially expressed their desire to re-
main attached to the British Crown. If their Lord-
ships threw out the Bill, they parted with the best
security which England possessed for the maintenance
of her Canadian colonies. But whatever might be the
decision of their Lordship that night, he entertained no
doubt whatever that the restrictions imposed by the na-
vigation-laws
with a good grace the obnoxious and injurious
theiri g at -r vh
Lordships
nao:. a
ylong bp er e
sme
na
ti not apipnoerdt.n n
it 3. Butf
oi
rf
restrictions which pressed upon the commerce and in-
dustry of the Canadians, they might depend upon hav-
ing to offer concessions when it would be too late. The
great author of the navigation-laws, that most sagacious
man and able ruler, Cromwell, allowed the rising colo-
nies to enjoy a practical exemption from their operation;
and they were permitted to keep this in the midst of the
wars wherein England was involved during the Protec-
torate. But Charles 11. tried to make the navigation-
laws applicable in the colonies. This odious law
of navigation and trade could not be enforced
and he (Lord Grey) would refer their Lord-
ships to a scarce book, called " The Lives of the Re-
markable Men" of that day, for some account of Edward
Randolph, who, is the year 1679, was appointed Col-
lector of Boston, in the United States, for the express
purpose of enforcing the trade and navigation•laws, but
who signally failed in so doing. The Noble Earl here
read an extract from the work to which he drew atten-
tion, but in so inaudible a tone as to prevent his state-
ment from reaching the reporters' gallery. The power
of the Government of Charles 11. and his successors was
tot strong enough to enforce these injurious and odious
laws, and though they remained on the statute book their
operation was practically suspended as far as the colonies
forawereconcaerttenemdptswere d
long series
m ae
to for
of years.en Other sub-
sequentthherem
but those attempts were always met with the most
determined resistance.—(Hear, hear.) Then they came
to the only period of the reign of George 111., when
a renewed attempt was made to enforce these laws.
That attempt, like the others, was at once resisted,
and the Government determining to persevere in it,
the result was the separation of the American colonies
from the mother country. He was aware that it was
generally believed that the American war of indepen-
dence originated in a mere question of taxation. But
there could be no doubt in the minds of those who exa-
mined the matter that it was not that alone, but that the
question turned principally on our navigation-laws, and
that the attempt to enforce those odious laws was the
main cause of the resistance of our American colonies
and their ultimate separation. Mr. Savage gave it as
his opinion, " that had the attempt been enforced in
1766 the separation would have then ensued as certainly
as it did in 1776. Never was there a period when the
colonies submitted quietly to these laws, or at all, ex-
cept under compulsions" and he also added, " that
nothing in his judgment could be clearer than that
the British navigation-laws for regulating trade
were most injurious to her colonies."—(Hear, bear.)_
That was the opinion also of a distinguished Minister of
the United States, and a lawyer, who was now the Mini-
ster
h could
of the United States in England, and
separation (1770), stating that the attempt
leadp to the
these odious restrictions would certainly
ensued—and again, in 1776,
re-
sult which six years later ensue
ex expressed. In
in another letter the same opinion was p
h t letter of Mr.
show letters from the French Minister pretviowtuosoetnoforethee
ahsater Mr. Bancroft's
Bancroft's—believing, as he did, t
confirmation..
•
Lordships with that
opinion would
entertained for it. He said—" John
respect which be
the United States,
and the second President of
Adams,
and the first American Minister to the Court of
London, in speaking of the independence of that
country, stated- that it originated in the struggle
o fb
e this
receivedh e w o
bu yl d theirrea read
which had commenced in 1761 against the navigation-
laws." They found, then, that, during s century and
a half, when those laws were in abeyance, there was

prosperity, and contentment in our American colonies;
en the other hand, that when they attempted to enforce
them, they were met with the most determined resist-
ance, which resulted in the separation of a large part of
the empire. With these lessons before their eyes, were
they to rush blindfold into the same short-sighted policy?
Ii the decision should unfortunately be the reverse of
what he hoped and expected it would be—be would,
indeed, be a bold man who would venture to make him-
self responsible for the consequences—and for the admi-
nistration of the colonial affairs of this country in the

face of the dangers and the difficulties which that deci-
sion would entail.—(Hear.) Great stress had been laid
on the petitions which had been presented against the Bill.
But they knew very well the machinery by which peti-
tions were now too frequently got up—a machinery
which he regretted to say went far to destroy the benefit
of the right of petition.—(llear, hear.) In no case,
perhaps, had that machinery been more vigorously exer-
cised than in the present. Now, with regard to the pe-
tition from Liverpool. From a town, containing 200,000
inhabitants, they were told a petition had emanated,
signed by no less than 47,000 persons.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed it would not be denied that there was much
division in Liverpool on this subject, and that there were
many tree traders there. Yet here they had a petition
purporting to be signed by no le,s than three-fourths of
the whole adult male population, including paupers,
police, beggars, and all other persons from the highest
to the lowest.—(Hear, hear.) Besides this they ha.l
petitions from other placei—presented as against the re-
peal of the navigation laws—as petitions from the clergy
landowners, and others of Mayfield, Hastings, and other
agricultural districts.

-A
Not PEER-ILAnd maritime places also.
Earl GREY—Yes, there were petitions from Tewkes-
bury and Melton Mowbray. Were these maritime
places ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But did any of
their Lordships believe that it was merely the preven-
Lion of any alteration in the navigation-laws these peti-
tioners had in view ?—([lear, hear.) He would take
one—a petition from Ashby-de-la-2ouch. Ho found
that the petitioners complained that the depressed con-
dition of agriculture threatened ruin to the farmer,
landowner, and all the industrial classes dependent on
them for support, and praying
.for such an amount of
protection to British agriculture, and to the colonial,
commercial, and manufacturing interests, as should shift
the burden of taxation from the home to the foreign pro-
ducer.—(Hear, hear.) lie asked their Lordships
to pause before they determined to oppose the
repeal of the navigation- law s. He advised them to con-
sider well the effects which might result. He was not
afraid of their success, even should they try, as they
seemed inclined to do, to repeal the corn-laws. He had
not; the slightest apprehension that they could succeed
in re-establishing the corn laws.—(Cheers.) They
might mistake the present apparent apathy in public
opinion; but they should recollect that a step in the
free-trade direction was never retraced; that the steady
tide of human improvements was progressing, and that
when that which was admitted to be sound was once
established in a tree country and became embodied in
their statute-book, there was no retreat. The corn-laws
were settled for ever. He begged of their Lordships to
consider well' whether it' was not full of, danger again to
re-open the agitation on that subject. Let them remember
all the machinery of agitation, and how, if re- opened, it

would effect the interest of land. If they began a real
agitation for the restoration of protection—it, for iu-

stance, they said that a return to protection was neces-

sary for the carrying on of their business, they would de-
press the value of landed property. That property was
suffering at the present moment, and yet there was
nothing in the present crisis to justify a panic.—(Laugh-
ter from the Protectionists.) The average price of wheat
now was 455.; the average price under the system of pro-
tection had been 355.; and therefore there was nothing
to justify the panic. But there was not a landlord now
who was not suffering from the depressed value of land;
and in the present state of Europe was there no danger to
be apprehended from setting class against class—from
again calling into existence the machinery of agitation
upon anti-corn-law and upon pro-corn-law, and upon that
most exciting subject'of the food of the people, raising a
cry for protection?—Cheers.) Were their Lordships so
blind as not to know that among those who were osten-
sibly prosecuting the repeal of the corn-laws, there were
many who felt regret at the success of that measure—
that there were too many who were anxious to keep up
the agitation for ulterior, and, as he (Earl Grey)
thought, dangerous objects 2—(Hear, hear.) Were
they going to let such parties as these recommence agi-
tation for these more dangerous purposes ? He trusted
not. He warned them to beware lest the tenantry of this
country should turn upon them and say that it was not
protection but something else they wanted—that they
required not a gentry to dictate to them, but that they
would set up for themselves, and adopt a most dangerous
cry?—(Hear, hear.) Were their Lordships prepared
by their vote that night to produce a general election, in
which dangerous and most exciting topics might be
raised? Were they prepared to run incalculable risks?
—(Hear, hear.) True, a Noble Lord had told the House
the night before to anticipate no danger, but to look at

the measure before them, and to thioW it out without

fear or scruple; but if that Noble Lord would brave the

storm, he (Earl Grey) trusted their Lordships were not
prepared to follow his example, but that they would
consider the bearings of the present question upon the
general interests of the country, and it they regarded the
management of public affairs as imposing upon them
the highest and most solemn responsibility, he had no
fear of the result of that night's division.—(Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said he had no intention of going
back to the remote times to which the Noble Marquis
had alluded in introducing the Bill, or to those of which
the Noble Earl who had just addressed their Lordships
had spoken. Neither should he enter into any of those
speculations with which the Noble Earl had concluded
his spooch. The great question to which he would ven-
ture to draw their Lordships' attention was simply this—
'Was it, by all considerations of domestic, foreign, and
colonial policy, advisable, by adopting this Bill, to de-
stroy altogether a system of law, which for the last 200
years, to say the least of it, had been relied upon as the
base of their national greatness, and the foundation of
their civil strength ?—(llear, hear.) In considering
this question, he did not propose to follow the Noble
Earl through the colonial part of the question. He
thought the simple question was—would they wholly
repeal their navigation-laws? In the proposition now be-
fore them, they were forced into a particular channel of
inquiry. The question was not, whether they would
adapt those laws to the circumstances of the times in
which they lived; but it went directly to the entire re-
peal of the navigation-laws. On that account it was that
he did deprecate the hasty, precipitate, ill-considered
step which the Government were advising them to take
—a step which amounted to nothing short of destroying
utterly the navigation-law of this country. The Noble
Earl had designated these navigation-laws as the bar-
barous relic of a barbarous age, inconsistent with the
refined and enlightened policy of a civilized nation, and
unworthy of being retained in the statute-book. He
(Lord Stanley) could recollect a time when the Noble
Earl did not hold the opinion that these were the charac-
teristics of the navigation-laws—(hear)—when, at a
meeting of shipowners, at North Shields, he said it was
wrong to expose the British shipowner to competition,
and still subject him to restriction. It was represented,
too, that Mr. Iluskisson had approved of those views of
the Noble Earl, expressed at that time, which no doubt
he did. Adam Smith, on the other hand, said that these
laws, dictated as they were in the first instance by na-
tional animosity, had been produced by the utmost poli-
tical wisdom. He would remind the House that when

this last relic of a barbarous age existed, Mr. Huskisson
was bound to arty that it was based upon the highest
ground of national necessity—that of providing for their
defences, and of affording security to their colonial pos-
sessions. Adam Smith, then, thought that these laws,
commenced in a feeling of national animosity, were the
result of the utmost wisdom of their statesmen; Mr.
Huskisson justified their policy, on the ground of high
political necessity; and Earl Grey considered them the
relic of a barbarous age. Between those conflicting
authorities their Lordships were called upon to decide.
—(Cheers and laughter.) He would now venture to re-
.
mad their Lordships of the extent of the interests upon
which they were required to legislate. Ile did not
believe that the tonnage of this country was so large as
the Noble Marquis had stated it at, viz., 4,000,000 tons,
or that the number of seamen was so large as 232,000;
but of this there was no doubt, that in that trade there
was embarked an amount of capital from 54,000,0004
to 60,000,0001., that it employed, beyond the seamen en-
gaged in it, eighty thousand artificers, which artificers
divided amongst them at least 5,000,0004 in wages, and
the total freight earned by these vessels was 28,600,0004
Those were merely the pecuniary considerations of
the question before their Lordships ; but there was
another far above them. It was the consideration
of their national defences and independence, and on that
question they were, he thought, nearly all agreed. That
their maritime superiority, so essential to their national
greatness, was dependent almost entirely on
their commercial marine could not be denied.—

(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships were now called upon
by the Government to put these elements of their
greatness in jeopardy, and to be satisfied with the argu-
ments of the Noble Earl and his colleagues, that they
might with advantage sweep from the statute-book
last vestige of these laws. He would warn their
Lord-
ships most earnestly to be careful not to act
hastily
the
asyet upon
any such recommendations. He was
would incur such
astonishedl til
boldness of the Ministry, w
great consequence upon thehir w
rd of a die. The
"
Noble Earl, who respected
popular opinion, com-
mented upon the petitions
from tenant-farmers, who,
althought if these petitioners were
Earl
preaellte injured themselves,
had sympathy for others, bu
not exactly what the Noble might value, was that a
reason he should disregard.tthees
pseutctlitt,aainstance,
spresented from
for as that
great commercialcommumi
presented from Liverpool? But Liverpool was not the
only commercial town that presented petitions; no such
thing.
would ask, had any commercial town
petitioneßdut'n! ho
favour of it? Not one.—(ll.ear, hear.)
The Noble Earl acted as if the commercial and ship-
owning interests knew nothing of this subject,—
(Hear, hear.) Now, he found that all the naval
men in the country declared that if -they broke
down these laws, it would lead to tIP e destruc-
tion of the naval supremacy of this entry. The
Noble Earl then adverted to the machinery got up for
the presentation of petitions, and yet he could say that
never was any expression of opinion mo':e spontaneous.
than that which took place with reference to th.is sub.-
ject. It was, however, rather inconsistent on the part of
the Government to make this insinuation, ‘O,lO were ge-
nerally understood to have used such e•xtraordinary
means to procure a majority in that Heeds° upon this
question. It was said that the commercial ch uses did
not understand these navigation-laws. 'There w as, how-
ever, one thing certain, that they did not know th at these
laws wire injurious to them. It was certain ly very
strange that these parties should not find 'et it in the
course of their business that these laws were : inconve-
nient or injurious to their interests. With n !gard to
the case of Canada, with reference to the effect of these
laws, that was, as that colony was now placed, .an ex-

_ T -IrIPT"TrIeTTCrir
ceptional case. It was not likely that a colony wunld
petition the Queen for the restoration of protection,
when that petition was to go through the hands of the
Noble Earl, and ho was to advise the answer. The
case, however, of Canada, was peculiar. The differ-
enee upon the receipts from Quebec or Montreal was
never great, and between which there were very heavy
charges before a vessel could enter the ocean. These
amounted, upon a vessel of 350 tons, to 1751. In truth,
American vessels would not go to Montreal, closed
up for five months in the year with ice, when they could
export their produce from New York.—(Hear, hear.)
The American ships would not, and did not, compete
with English ships on the river St. Lawrence. The
Noble Earl referred to the firm of Holme, Young, and
Knapp, stated to carry on a very profitable trade in pig
iron, but stated that they were seriously injured by those
obnoxious navigation-laws. He could not, however,
agree in that view. This House was said to have de-
clared that the people of Canada were most loyal, but
recommended that their feelings should not be exaspe.
rated by a refusal to repeal those laws. Now these gen-
tlemen, on a former occasion, stated that the Canadas
sure anxious for annexation with the United States,
and further stated it was impossible to retain a
colony upon the principles of free trade.
(Hear, hear.) This was the authority upon
which the Noble Earl acted to conciliate their own sub-
ject. in Canada, addressed by this American friendly
authority. Besides, Canada was not the whole of the
Northern colonies. New Brunswick and Nova Scoiia
called upon them to repeal those laws, because they
were shipbuilding colonies. Those cheap ships, upon
which they so much relied, were of no consideration, if
the peculiar situation of Canada Was Liken into account,
and they desired to relax the laws with regard to
Canada. That might be done without opposition from
the merchants of this country, by placing Montreal
in the position of having goods exported con-
sidered as the produce of that port. Reference
had been made to the petition from Jamaica. But
the curious thing of it was, that the memorial from
Jamaica did not ask for a repeal of the navigation-laws.
They wished to have the order of the Queen in Couacil
altered—and it was not fair, in the face of such a com-
plaint, to say that those people complained of the navi-
gation-laws, against which they did not complain at all.
It was quite certain that while they were acting on prin-
ciples of reciprocity, they gained great advantages for
this country in their commerce with foreign nations.
Now, with respect to British tonnage, it was quite cer-
tain while it had fallen off to an immense amount that
of Prussia had increased to a great extent. They en-
joyed 1,700,000 of shipping, and in that no power could
reach them, if they took care not so to alter their navi-
gation-laws as to hold out to them an inducement to do
so. They should also take care that they did not so inter-
fere with the interests of their artisans in their
dockyards as to discourage them, and drive them to
seek a field wherein to exercise their skill and industry
in other nations. It had been said that the British ship-
builders in this country had nothing to fear from the
fact of British ships being built in foreign countries; but
let him remind their Lordships that there could not be
a British ship built in a foreign country without dis-
placing a large amount of British labour, and diverting
from this country a considerable amount of British ca-
pital.—(Hear.) Ile warned them to take care not by
any act of theirs to trench upon and injure the inte-
rests of the labouring poor connected with this great
question; he warned them not to set ono class against
another; he warned them to take care of their artisans;
he warned them not to drive their British shipowners
to register their ships in foreign countries; and he
warned many Honourable Members of another House,
who, he must say, were not on this questio❑ representing
their constituents, that they would have much cause, in
the event of a dissolution, to apprehend the consequences
which the Noble Lord said he felt so much alarm about.
He, therefore, held that question to be entirely one of
giving employment to the people—to be totally separate
from free trade, and their Lordships would be much mis-
taken if they thought that British shipowners or seamen
would be satisfied with an Act passed, if it should pass,
with menaces—(Cheers)—which the Noble Marquis
opposite thought proper to use.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord then concluded a speech of great eloquence
and power, by invoking the blessings of Providence on
this country to maintain that navy which was not the
strength alone, but the greatness of that empire, and on
which its very existence mainly depended.
The Marquis of LANSDO WNE then rose and ob-
served that he was not, at that hour of the night, going
to obtrude on their Lordships at any length, in answer
to the eloquent speech of the Noble Lord who had just
sat down. The Noble Lord said, that menaces had been
used, but he defied him to state when or where they
were so uttered.—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord
made the statement, there was a general curiosity to
know what those menaces were, and whether they were
given in public or private. But he would take on him-
self to say that the words, if menace they were, would
never have been used, were it not that the Noble Lord
himself said, manfully certainly, but ostentatiously, that
he was prepared for the consequences of a victory on
that question.—(Load cheers.) All he (the Marquis of
Lansdowne) said was, that if he were prepared for
victory, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was
equally prepared for a defeat, and that was the menace
which was used, and which was so much exaggerated.
The attention of the Government had been for some
time drawn to the subject, and after two or three years'
deliberation, atter successive votes of the House of
Commons in its favour, the measure had come before
their Lordships. flow then could the Noble Lord ac-
cuse Ministers of being guilty of precipitation with re-
ference to the present question?—(Hear.) The Noble
Marquis having concluued, . _

Strangers were ordered to withdraw, when there sp-
pc aced—

Contents
Proxies 6B
-- 173
Non-Contents
Proxies 44

163
Majority for Ministers - 10
The result was a majority in favour of the Govern-
ment, and was hailed with loud cheers.
Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to Fir.
o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

,From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)

TUESDAY, NAY 8.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.

The following Resolution was reported from the above
Committee :

That in the case of the Edinburgh and Northern Railway'
(Formation of Slip Quay and other Works at Granton,
Ex-
tension of Station at Edinburgh, Regulation cf Perth
Stations, and Amendment of Acts) petition for additional
Provision, the standing orders ought to be dispensed with :--
That the parties be permitted to introduce their additional
Provision if the Committee on the Bill shall think fit.--
Resolution agreed to.

THE " COUNT OUT" LAST NIGHT. • .
The following Members were present when the Hopleyelli
counted out last night :
Sir Charles Wood
Sir W. Somerville
Mr. Baines
Mr. James Clay
Sir H. Williamson
Mr.Poulett Scrope
Colonel Thompson
Mr. Aglionby
Mr. Macgregor
Mr. French
Mr. W. J. Fox
Mr. John Williams
Mr. Meagher
Mr. William Fagan
Mr. John O'Connell
Mr. Sullivan
Mr. George Thompson

Colonel Rawdon
Mr. Lawless
Mr. Cowan
Mr. W awn
Mr. Pilkington
Colonel Salwey
Sir A.ll3rooke
Mr. Duncuft
Mr. Lacy
Mr. Taylor
Mr. Stafford
Mr. Henry Herbert
Lord M. Hill
Mr. Moore
Mr. C. W. Martin
Mr. Feargua O'Connor