The Sun.
London, England, 1831-06-22 00:00:00

1 warmly--was himself wry story that such a toast hail
been given, hecanse it'was one of those sentiments which
it was not proper frequently to have brought forward. He
must, however, defend the sentirnent as abstract truth ;
for it had been insisted on at the evolution, when King
James abdicated. With respect to the other toast pf
The Liberal Clergy of the Church of England," this
was the first time he had 'heard of it, and did not knoiv
where it had occairred.--,--(Sorne Noble Lords said " North-
ampton.) He ccneeived that a very innocent toast. It
he were tn select from the sermons ani other observations
of the members of the Church, he was afraid he should
find matter quite as ttprehensible as that the Noble Earl
had found at eteciian dinners. 11e believed he should find
sentinrcnta adverse to the liberties of the people, and to
those kindly feelings on. which the prosperity of the
Church was found-A. lie had, too, he thongtr, a right
to complain of the Noble Earl rreti.ing what passed at
eleetion dinners a subject oftninment ha that House during
a grave debate.
The Dane of CITMBERLAND did not feel l‘imself
queflned to take part in their Lordship's' 1-bates, and
should not have said one wcrtl, having no objections to
make to the Atldns's, were it not for the circumstance
that the Neblc.t hill opposite had charged him truth heilng
alwers adverse to the liberties of the rieopta. He would,
however, state, in the face of "Nair Lordships, and in the
face of the country at targe, that there was no Member
of that Hott.e who would tight more strenuously for the
libet-tin of the people than he would.--( Cheers. ) wishe'd
the Noble Earl to state in what act orbit In ht had shown
a spirit of hostility to ttre lik,--erties a the people.—
' (Cheers.) Their Lordrhip4 otA excuse him for being
warm. He had the satisfaction of being surrounded by
his Noble Friends, who had always adVocated tae liberties
of the people. He and they, liAre\rer, felt it their duty
to maintain the Constitut7On, consisting of a King, an
Aristocracy, and et tiouse of Commons, with equal rights.
r, near.)
—(Hea That he had always maiettairtd, and
always would maintain. With reepett to the Bill hefore !
Parliament, he had no hesitation its saying that he saw it
'in a different point View from the Noble Earl opposite
(Earl Grey)-. When any other measure was brought for-
ward, he would not pledge himseif to support it ; he
would listen to all that was said about it, and he would
give his best -tttontion to all ttx arguments urged for and
against He apologized to their Lordshit,ls for address-
ing them ; but be could net as lw the Noble Earl to
assert, uncontradieteti.-, that he was the enemy of the liber-
ties of the per—pl'e.
Las; ~iI3EY explAiled.
the Earl of FALMOUTH complained of the allusion
made by the Noble Earl tts " there being seven of us."
If the Noble Earl did hot hien to apply that allusion to
him, he bad nothing to say—(Earl tlrey did not know to
whom the allusion applied—Order, order.) He begged
leave to say, thSt the story reflected on an ancestor of his,
and be renteived the Noble Earl had reflected on hilts in
making that allusion. As long as such stories were con-
ned to the newspapers, he shnuld treat them with me-
rited contempt ; teat When they were alluded to by the
Prime 3linisteC in the House of Peers he was called on to
notice instil. The whole story was founded in falsity,
and had been raked up from some of the libellous publica-
tions of those thaws,

Eal GREY ad not know that the story applied to the
ancestor of the N4de Earl. He had not seen the article
in the newspaper, and had read the anecdote in the
Diary of Bubb Doddington. In quoting it he hail ineent
no personal allusion, but merely to illustrate the use even
now made of such influnete.

Lord WEIMINCLIITY, protested against the discussion
on that side of the House being characterised as violent.
They had a sacred duty to perform—a duty to theking
and the country, and they wculd perform it. He knew
that the country requit,d to be told the truth, the plain
truth, in a bold and temperate manner. The Govern-
, went would not find the Opposition violent, but, pt ttlng
aside all personalities, would confine o.t..Mselves to what
was nece.sary. Of the Lint`tire of Reform he should
speak as a :natter of history. If the words of the King's
Speech wer.l adhered to, that Bill could never Main 1)2
hrenght forward. That Bill would, indeed) do away with
the improper influence of their Lordshipa ; but it would
give such a degree of influence to the Commons) that that
House would be annihilated. Ae to the Address, he
meant to give it no opposition. There was nothing in the
Speech for it, and nothing in the Address which called
for an Antleredlatent. With good sense and much mode-
ration the Ministers had said nothing in rraist of the disso-
lution ;if they had, no power ost h should have kept
him from moving to Amendment.—(Cheers.) As to
what hapreved at the late dissolution, that wan as much
a matter of history as anything that had occurred in
the reign of George the Second ; raid lie must say
that it was wrong to take that step in such a state of
excitement, When that event occurred, he had heard
with 1, stonishment the Noble and Learned Lord on the
Woolsack say, that " He had never yet btatd that the
Crown ought not to diseelve Parliament, particularly
when the House of Commons had thought fit to take the
unprecedented and extreme step of refusing the Supplies."
ue must say, that an assertion more contrary to fart he
had never heard in either House of Farlizlment. He said

the House of Common: ti .d not refuted the Supplies—
they had mad: no attempt to refuse the Supplies; but a
motion fot adjournment was carried on a very different
motion. He knew that the Ordnance Ettimater, stood for
that evening ; but no motion eoncetning them was before
the House. He mutt lay, that the offence with which the
Ilouse of Commons was then charged—for offence it was—
had a great influence over the elections.—(A laugh.) The
Noble Lord then adverted to the tikvumatance that the
King's name had been t'4,ed as favourable to the n easure
which he complained of, and said that that had contri-
buted to the success of the elections. The Noble Lord
also referred to the illuminations ordered by the Lord
Mayor, and said, that the town being left for several
hours at the dir,trecion of the mob, showed in the
Noble Lord at the head of the Home Department a
great want of discretion. The present House of Com-
mons, in consequence of the exeitment, was a mere
body of delegates sent to pass the Bill, the whole
Bill, and rothing but the Bill. The Noble Lord
alec tt'mplained of the threatening language used
at the hustings, and of Yorkshire having been deprived of
an active and honourable man, well fitted to represent the
county, who had voted for the Bill, but found something
ohjectionabl in its details. The Members had been sent to

the House pledged to the Bill. He did not say threaten-
ing language had been used, but language very like threats
had been employed on various occasions. He really did
not understand how men could get rid of the pledges they
had &vela to their constituency respecting the ten•pound
Taalification, even if they should, upon a deliberate re-
view of the question, be induced to disapprove of it.—
At present he did not wish to discuss the question of Re-
form. Ile should wait until he saw what the new Bill
was, and lie recommended the same line of conduct to the
other Noble Lords who were hostile to the principles un-
derstood to have been promulgated in another place. He
did not mean to debar himself from the right of making
observations respecting particular portions of the Bill) on
petitions, or upon other occasions ; but be would not at-
tempt to discuss the whole measure, and he thought it
would he more consistent with the dignity of the House,
if they did not attempt to discuss the whole measure until
it was fully brought before them. It was a source of much
pain to him to observe the situation in which that House
would be placed if the other House should pass a measure
to which they could not give their assent. They would
undoubtedly be placed in a situation of exceeding ditTr.
culty, and he most earnestly prayed that such an event
never might arrive. There was undoubtedly a large body
of persons in the country who were favourable to a mea-
, sure of Reform, most extensive in its nature; but if their
Lordships were satisfied that the plan submitted for their
consideration was fraught with danger to the State, they
had but one line to pursue—(Cheers)—they must reject
it--(Cheers.) For his own part, he would rather return
to his situation as a simple English gentleman, than sup-
port the Bill, if it assumed as dangerous a form there as
it had in another place.—(Cheers.) It was well and wise
for their Lordships to look forward. They were threat-
ened, in case of a refusal of the measure that was to be
proposed, with all sorts of calamity.—(Hear, hear.)
They were told to look to their property and to their
station.—(Hear, hear.) As for their property, it could
not be in danger, except in common with that of all other
Englishmen—(Hear, bear)—and as for their station and
dignities, he could only say that he would himself—and
many there were who shared the feeling with him—he
would forfeit all his dignities, rather than betray his duty
to his God, his country, and his King--(Gheers)—if he
really believed the Bill was against it.—(Loud cheers.)
The existing impression on his mind he declared to be that
it was. He had alestained from tntering as fully into the
question as the Noble Earl, but he thought it. right, even
at this early stage of the proceedings, to bring the matter
before the House ; and lie entreated them to look their insitu-
actoinosnidfeurlalytion o
thfteheq
face. He
calmlytru sted
and thefiyrsmvolyu,ladncdomtheattoththe the
would decide according to the dictates of their conscience,y
knowledge, and experiencewati
satisfactoryhenh;:dt
greaticonfidence in the
the great majority of
people of England.
deciaion
thinking nren.woul—d be
(Hearile
e t
that . )
would be always sure to command their rersinpa"e ((Heartydu
But if they were to betray their duty, and
vote
e f
ur
which they considere4 the &zit step for the subversion of

the State, in consequence of any fhttats front abroad, er
any personal fear, be wctild rather see the House of Lords
at once wiped out of the Constitiitiou.—(Hear.) He had
rather see the House wiped away at once, than that it
should drag on for a few yearn in impotence and conterntst.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE Agreed t'rith the Noble
Lord (WharncTiffe) in hoping that there would be nn pre-
mature disc:melon of the great question of Reform. From
all that be had heard and seen, and from all tlnst he totlil
collect abroad, some change 't.ttst take piste in the repre-
sentation of the tvantiy. Now if this were the opinion
of the majority of the people of England, and if their winhe
were responded to and re-echoed from tile `throne, he
could not himself .rloelr.: t'isai; the measure must be suc-
cessfnl. Atad as for the line of proceedings to be fol-
lowed by their Lordships, if there was one duty snore
solemnly imposed upon them than another, it wan thsst
of applying their whole minds, -w?tholit prejudice or
passion, to the otiEs'Aols V'hlcttivoiild be submitted to them-,
so as to stchre it after such a manner as would secure the
permanency of those institutions wherewith, according
to all authors, the prosperity of the co'mtly is insepa-
rably connected.—(Hea'r, hear.) Never was there, he
contendet, :11 answer to the Noble Baron (Wharncliffe),
a nitre necessary measure than the dissolution of the late

Parliament for the preservation of tbose institutiont;
What was the state of things tinder which that dissolu-
tion had been determt.ned t6pon ? A meaStire having ob-
tained the petty 'general approbation of the country was
introduced into the House of Commons, after a series of
events which had rendered the people perfectly acquainted
with the arguments which ea',uld be adduced on both sides
of the question. Now, the result Lavin.- been that a sue •
ces-iul opposition had been offered to the Bill, although
there was no great preponderance of number, yet was the
opposition such that there was no possibility of proceed-
ing succteefully With 'the measure: His Majesty's ad.
visor's then recommended him to take the sense of the
people. His Majesty was graciously phrased to follow this
advice. The sense of tile people was taken, and it was
most unequivocally expressed in favour of the Reform
Bill; and if anything were needed to support the Sound-
ness and expediency of the advire evhili his Majesty's Mi-
nisters give, it Woktld round in the history of electrons.
In reply to the observations which had been made respect-
ing the improper use of the private opinion and feeling
of his M ijesty upon this question which had been
made by his Majesty's Ministers, he begged to de-
clare that the private opinions and feelings of 'his
Majesty had never been stated in any way ex-
cept to rebut the false and unconstitutional assertions
which bad been continually put forth respecting his
Alajesty's want of confidence in, and personal hostility to,
the views and objects of his responsible advisers. When
such assertions were made, it was essential they should be
promptly contradicted, and that it should have been clearly
-fated that, from the beginning to the end, the opinions,
and wishes, and feelings of the King had gone along, as
they ought of right to go, with those of his constitutional
advisers. It was necessary that this simple fact should be
laid before the people; and the people believed us and not
our adversaries—and they judged aright.—(Cheers.)
They gave his Majesty credit for that frankness and since-
rity by which be is so eminently characterized, and which
was one of the most glorious ornaments of his crown._
(Hear.) He denied that any part of it.e just authority of
the House would be taken away. No constitutional right
or privilege would be taken from them. Montesquieu,
whb possessed one of the greatest minds that ever adorned
humanity, had sedulously applied his attention to the Bri-
tish Constitution, and pronounced an eulogium upon it
which spoke in the most exalted terms of its wisdom and
character; but Montesquieu had not alluded to anything
in the privileges of the House of Lords which would be
taken away by the Reform Bill. On the contrary, the
very alterations which were contemplated in the popular
branch of thf Legislature would make the Constitution
more truly resemble that which had been represented by
Montesquieu when he was enlarging upon its excellenci,s,
describing its several parts, detailing their powers and ex-
tent, and athewing how they operated upon and influenced
each other. The Bill, he maintained, would do no more
than restore to the House of Commons their just and
constitutional privileges; it was nothing more than a
rectirrence to the principles under which the Constitution
of England had flourished. The extension of the
franchise might be deemed an alteration ; but it was one
which was called for by the circumstances of the times.
Ptopetty had appeared in a new shape, and was thus
spread throughout the country in all directions. The pro-
portion of persons holding property in the funds of 1001.
or under, was to those who possessed property to a higher
amount as 2 or 800,000 to 20 or 30,000; and he sub-
mitted to their Lordships, it was not possible, it was not
in human nature, that such a number of persons so widely
spread should not be anxious, and even clamourous, for
representation. He felt convinced that the people would
be satisfied by observing that the other House had a fair
share in the Constitution; and he as firmly believed that
their Lordships' House, when relieved from what was
really their weakness—he meant the right of interfering,
by unjust means, to influence the other House of Parlia-
tnent—would be placed upon a more stable and solid foun-
dation than it had ever occupied before. None of their
just rights or privileges would be affected by the Bill;
from the maintenance of them he for one never would
shrink; but if they claimed nothing but what was strictly
and legally, and constitutionally their due, when the diffi-
culty to which the Noble Baron alluded did arise—when
the Bill passed the other House, and carne before them,
they would clearly see their way.—(Hear, hear.) And
the only way by which they could hope to esc ipe from the
difficulty in which they might find themselves placed,
would be in the temperate and conscientious discharge of
their duty in giving their best and most dispassionate
consideration to the measure which would be sub-
mitted to them. If they attempted to maintain claims
to which they had really no title, they might find them-
selves in a situation of dire embarrassment; as the
Noble Earl behind him had said, they endeavoured to
litep their position as an army of occupation in a
country which was not their own; but if they were
content with bestowing their care as Legislators, and ini•
nutely weighing all the details of the measure, their deci-
sion would be received with respect and confid, nce by the
country. All difficulties would then cease, and England
would do justice to their motives and their conduct. His
Majesty's Speech stated that in any measures which might
be proposed, they would carefully adhere to the acknow-
ledged principle's of the Constitution, by which the prero-
gatives of the Crown, the authority of both Houses of Par-
liament, and the rights and liberties of the people, are
equ illy secured. These were not unmeaning words. It
was the firm determination of his Majesty's Ministers, and
of none more strongly than the individual who was then
addressing them, to maintain and preserve to the House all
its just prerogatives and privileges. Although he differed
with many points of the Noble Baron's speech, he yet highly
approved of the tone and temper with which it had been
uttered. However, he trusted that upon consideration the
Noble Baron would be disposed to do justice even to a Lord
Mayor. The fact was, that functionary had given no notice
of illuminations, he had merely deferred it from one day to
another. And the fact was, the whole damage done in the
City did not amount to 1001 He could not take upon him
to say what damage might have been done to houses at the
other end of the town.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was one of the most
unfortunate of the persons whose property was on that
occasion exposed to the outrages of the mob, and declared
that the amount of damage done to his house was much
greater than that at which the Noble Marquis had rated
the city. He had left his house unrepaired as a monument
of the species of protection which, under the existing Go-
vernment, was afforded to the peaceable inhabitants of the
metropolis; and he much wished the Noble Marquis would
be graciously pleased to inform him where he was to seek
redress and indemnification for the damage which had been
inflicted upon him ? He desired to know whether he was
to prosecute the Noble Home Secretary, or whether the
Noble Marquis, whose own house was walled in, would
undertake to pay the amount to which he had suffered ?
And before dismissing the subject, be begged to remark
upon the fact, that all persons known to be opposed to the
dissolution of Parliament and to the Reform Bill had been
exposed to the intemperance of the mob. He declared,
that when the Noble Earl (Grey) had first taken the reins
of Government, he was disposed to support him, as well
from the talent and consistency he had formerly displayed,
as from the declarations he had made in favour of his order
and the aristocracy ; but when he presented a measure so
wild and sweeping as the Reform Bill, he felt it was no
longer possible for him to place confidence in the Noble
Earl's Administration. This measure of Reform he desig-
nated, not as the work of Lord Grey, or any of the Cabinet
Ministers, but of some of the underlings in their de-
partments. In allusion to the scene which occurred in the
House of Lords on the day of the dissolution, he attributed
all the intemperance which might have been exhibited upon
his part and that of others, to the example of the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack, who rushed out of the House, de-
claring that Parliament was to be dissolved in consequence
of the stoppage of the supplies. Now they heard in the
Speech delivered a few minutes after, that it was sot on
account of the stoppage of the supplies, but from his Ma-
jesty's desire to call on the people to consider the question
of Reform. And also in the Speech which Ministers
had just put into his Majesty's mouth, they found a direct
contradiction to it ; and, likewise, it appeared from what
, had been said by persons connected with the Government

in various parts of the country, that Ministers had de-
termined upon a dissolution. Now this proved that the
Noble and Learned Lord had departed from what might be
called the honest truth of the traesaction ; and when they
observed this, and witnessed the iritenapehance of his con-
duct, they Might be perhaps eicused for having been in
seine degree misled by his eiarraple oiichipg the Reform
Bill. he &Mated that never was there, in his opinion, a
measure less called for, or more fraught with evil. He
congratulated Government on the ingenuity they had dis-
played in the manufacture of the Speech from the throne.
The only tangible point in it—the only point of any im-
portance, was that about the cholera morbus—(Laughter)
—they were not threatened with the Reform Bill—they
were not threatend with foreign or domestic war, they were
on'y threatened with the ch'dltra Moibits.—(tontilitied
la',!ghter.) t,;ever was there a Speech so Satisfactorily
framed to disarrii opposition. There was nothing in feet
to be caught hilt the Chrilera riiorbus.(Loud laughter.)
He then proceeded to e*press his eaHsfaction at the honour
lately cenferred on the Noble Premier. He was very glad
to see the Noble Earl decorated with that riband, but he
really was at a loss to find out for what public services it
had been bestowed. The Reform Bill introduced Under
the Noble Earl's acts ices was most pernicious measure.
And at to the Noble
Earl's foreign policy—with respect to
Belgium, for instance—the proper time for discussing that
qwstion would he when their Lordships knew all that had
passed on that stibjeet ; but judging from the documents
which had already appeared—and he believed the Belgic
Deputation now in London agreed with him in the opinion
—more extraordinary proceedings than those of our Go-
vernment never occurred in the whole history of diplo-
macy. 'there was not a point of their whole policy, fo-
reign or dornestier on which his Majesty's present Govern-
ment could stand up and fairly claim the approbation of
the country. He would not detain their Lordships longer
on the present occasion ; but he could not conscientiously
sit silent; for although the Speech was so couched that it
was not possible for him to tribve an amendment to
(A laugh)—he mast say that he thought the coursewhich
had been pursued by his Majesty's Government in the
highest degree pernicious to the country.
Lord MELBOURNE rose merely to advert to one
point in the speech of the Noble Lord opposite. The
Noble Lord ought to have made himself better informed
upon the subject. The Noble Lard said, that on Mon-
day, April 13, the Lord Mayor originated the proposition
of illuminating the city ; and that it was only his (Lord
Melbourne's) fault that that intention was eventually car-
ried into effect on the Wednesday, he (Lord Melbourne)
having given authority for the change. Now that
was not true ; he had never given any authority
whatever for the change. No blame either was to
be attributable to the Lord Mayor in the whole of the
transaction. Having understood that it was the desire of
a large portion of the citizens of London to illuminate,
the Lord Mayor notified that, on the Monday, he would
illuminate the Mansion-house. Many of the citizens,
however, intimating that they could not be prepared, the
Lord Mayor postponed his notice till Wednesday. He
stated this, because, in a portion of the public press which
assumed to be the organ of the Noble Lords opposite—al-
though he did not know whether or not those Noble
Lords chose to identify themselves with it—a paper was
published purporting to be signed by the Lord Mayor,
which, if it bad been authentic, would have been one of
the highest offences of which that Chief Magistrate
could be capable, namely, a declaration that the police
should not afford any protection to the persons or pro-
perty of any of those individuals who did not light
up their houses. No such paper, however, nor anything
like it, had proceeded from the Lord Mayor; who post-
poned the illumination from Monday to Wednesday, only be-
cause he understood many of the inhabitants of London
would not be prepared by the former day. The Noble
Lord hail said, that if he (Lord Melbourne) had taken the
opportunity of communicating with the Lord Mayor, be
might have prevented the mischief which ensued. How
did the Noble Lord know that he had not communicated
with the Lord Mayor ; who told him, that so strong was
the desire of the citizens of London to illuminate, that it
would be better to yield to it. The act of illumination
was one which in general he disapproved and discom-
mended ; but the circumstances attending the recent illu-
mination were not singular. He had never seen any illu-
mination in which windows had not been broken, and
breaches of the peace committed. He was exceedingly
opposed to such outrages ; but in the late instance it would
have been impossible to prevent the illumination. What-
ever reports to the contrary might have been circulated, he
(Lord Melbourne) had ordered instructions to be given to
the police to give every possible protection to persons and
property. Great protection was accordingly afforded.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE repeated his opinion that the
Noble Secretary of State might have adopted other mea-
sures in the case in question. Did he put in comparison
an illumination for a party-triumph in Parliament, with
an illumination for a victory, a peace, or any other great
cause of national rejoicing ?
Lord MELBOURNE replied, that if the general desire
of the people was to illuminate, the effects of that illu•
mination would be the same, whatever might have been
its cause. The Noble Lord's objection was, therefore, a
quibble.

Lord WIIARNCLIFFE condemned the use of hard
words in their Lordships' debates, and denied that what
he had stated was " a quibble."
The Marquis of CLEVELAND and the Earl of
MANSFIELD rose at the same moment ; and for several
minutes there were loud calls upon each Noble Lord to
proceed.
Lord KENYON moved that the Earl of Mansfield be
now heard.

Lord HOLLAND did not oppose the motion from any
disrespect to the Noble Earl, who never spoke in that
House without doing himself great credit; but because he
had observed the Noble Marquis make three ineffectual
attempts i❑ the course of the evening to be heard.
Lord KENYON said his reasons for wishing that the
Noble Earl might be heard were, because he had seen the
Noble Earl rise two or three tittles in the course of the
debate, and because he knew that the Noble Earl wished
to say something on a subject recently introduced.
The Marquis of CLEVELAND then gave way, and

The Earl of MANSFIELD proceeded to state, as we
understood him, that having heard that the city was to
be illuminated, and that it was probable the illumination
might be extended to the west end of the town, he had
applied on the subject to the Noble Secretary of State,
who most distinctly stated his disapprobation of the in-
tended illumination, but observed that he bad no controul
respecting it. It did not belong to him (the Earl of
Mansfield) to say that it was part of the duty of the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department to give advice
to the Lord Mayor en the subject. He had certainly
heard that the Lord Mayor had said he was not very sure
if it would be possible for him to afford the protection
which such an occurrence demanded. He had hoped,
therefore, that, if possible, the Noble Secretary of State
would have prevented what had occurred by his advice to
the Lord Mayor. The Noble Secretary said :hat he had
communicated with the Lord Mayor; but it was evident
that he had not so thoroughly pressed his opinion as he
might have done. Nor did it appear that his Majesty's
Government were very averse to the illumination ; since
even some of the public offices were lighted up. As it
was, great mischief had tak• n place ; and it appeared that
the sufferers had no means for redress against the hun-
dred. On the general topics of the Speech and Address
he would not trouble their Lordships at present. Not
that he did not take a very different view from that which
was taken of many points in that Speech and that Ad-
dress. But there was nothing on which it appeared to him
that Parliament was called upon to express decided dissent.
If any approbation had been introduced of the measure
which occasioned the dissolution, he should have felt
it his duty to have suppoited, if not to have proposed an
amendment. In his opinion that dissolution was wholly
uncalled for, and wholly unjustifiable on the pretences ad-
vanced in its defence. The principles on which his Ma-
jesty's present Government came into office, were asserted
to be non-intervention, economy, and Parliamentary Re-
form. With respect to the first point, it did not appear
on the face of the transaction that they had adhered to their
principle in their conduct respecting Belgium; but that
would be a subject far future discussion. With respect to
the second point, it remained to be seen whether they knew
how to strike the balance between prodigality and a just
economy. With respect to the third point, the Bill
which they had introduced was it sufficient specimen of
their judgment. In the course of the discussions in another
place on that Bill, many gross errors and imperfections
were pointed out; but whether it was that his Majesty's
Government wanted talents or time, or whether they
wished solely to redeem their pledge to Reform, without
caring as to the means of redemption, to all those just
criticisms they declared their intention of turning a deaf
ear. The second reading of the Bill—the principle of the
Bill, was carried in the House of Commons- But Mi-
nisters refused to agree to any delay by which the details
of the measure might have been rendered less objection
able ; they refused to inquire into the precise nature of
that property, and of those rights, which they were every-
where attacking. They were told that the census of 1821
was incorrect, and, in consequence, there were particular
towns affected by theßill which ought to be exempt from
its operation ; and that, therefore, alterations should
be made with reference to those Tines, unless it were
wished to have still another dissointiOn. Another object

dtaikviecnguapilaecveiiiineultriyelamnodr.e
plotw
ewr arus e vt
hi daenn t
titihea tG ino
vtehremn en
cif remark connected with this question was what had
aban-
donmentl
of the prosecution against Mr. O'Connell, an in-
some political promise had been expressed or implied. It
v a said that the boort, required from Government by
the Right Hon. Gentleman for his support were a modifi-
cation of the qualification of Catholics, and the payment
of the Catholic Clergy out of the revenue of the Protestant
Church. And what was the object of the dissolution ?
It was an appeal to the people, not on the principle of the
Bill, for to that the House of Commons agreed, but to its
details. He would briefly advert to what had taken place
at that dissolution. It being thought necessary to excite
the people, his Majesty had been advised to dissolve Par-
, u
Par-
Ilathent with a huiry of which there had been no example
since the days of Crorhwell. What was their immediate
season? A 'f•',oble Friend of his had given notice of a
motionte r
whennthat House.theyadvisitede shoulda dissolution, ke t o
theyask
n
Ministers,o,nmt.
* lie
cated that notice to his Majesty ? At three o'clock on
the next day his Noble Friend's motion would have been
brought forward, and there could be no doubt that it
would have been carried by a considerable majority.
He asked if Ministers communicated that notice to
his Majesty? If they did, he would still maintain
that the advice to dissolve Parliament was unwise
and Impolitic; if they did note they were unfaithful an I
deceitful servants. When the Noble and Learned Load,
on the last day of the last Session, suddenly left the Wool-
sack, darting dark glances at the party opposed to him,
and looks of exultation at his own friends, he spoke of the
presence of his Majesty. Now, undoubtedly, his Ma-
jesty's presence in that House was always constitutionally
supposed, as it was in courts of law ; but unless his
Majesty was endowed with personal übiquity, he could
not be present at the time the Noble and Learned Lord
spoke ; fur it subsequently appeared that at that time his
Majesty must have- been at least as far from the House as
the Horse Guards. The Noble and Learned Lord had
also declared that his Majesty had an undoubted right to
dissolve Parliament; and that it was necessary he should
exercise that right as the House of Commons had adopted
the unprecedented step of stopping the supplies. Of
course he would not charge the Noble and Learned Lord
with a want of historical knowledge ; but how such a step
could be called unprecedented, it was difficult to conceive.
When the House of Commons refused the supplies there
was the alternative of dissolving the Parliament or dismis-
sing the Ministry. Now, really considering how little
support or countenance the existing Ministry had re-
ceived in either House, it appeared to him that their dis-
missal would have have been at least as natural as the dis-
solution of Parliament. He need not observe also that
there was great diterence between what was ordinarily
called stopping the supplies, and the postponement of the
report of the Ordnance Estimates. But when it was stated
that the dissolution was produced by the stopping of thesup-
plies, it ought to be inquired when the intention of Mini-
sters to advise his Majesty to dissolve was circulated
through the country. It appeared that the Noble Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer and the Right Hon. First Lord of
the Admiralty had communicated that intention to their
constituents at least six hours before the alleged stopping
of the supplies. He must also remonstrate against the
most improper and unconstitutional use of his Majesty's
name made during the recent elections. It was declared
that his Majesty was a Reformer, and that he approved of
the Bill, and the whole Bill. On what was this assumed ?
In his constitutional character, his Majesty had certain re-
sporsible advisers in whom he reposed confidence. With
his Majesty's permission, his present advisers had intro-
duced the Reform Bill into Parliament. But what did
that prove ? Only, that if the Bill should be approved by
both Houses, his Majesty, as at present advised, would give
his assent to it. Yet Ministers had everywhere proclaimed
that the Bill was popular, because it was approved of by
the King, and that the King was popular be.tauee he
approved of the Bill. It ought to be remembered that
the character of popularity was not always a good
one ; and that those were evil counsellors who availed
themselves of what they asserted to be the Royal opi-
nion, for the purpose of propping up their own power.—
The violence of the people in the North, who were gene-
rally of pious dispositions and peaceable manners, had
been on some recent occasions accompanied by expressions
of blood-thirsty vengeance, which, in this country, we had
hitherto attributed only to the French in the wildest mo-
ments of their !evolution. In some parts of the country
the people were bent on spoliation, and all they wanted
was a plan and a le ider. In those districts, although
they seemed to expect much from the Reform Bill, yet, on
looking to their acts, it would appear that they thought
only on a division of property. ' The effect of the recent
excitement had bees to turn all the animosity of the people
upon the aristocracy. He could not say that lie belonged
to the class called moderate Reformers ; and if he did, he
could not say that he had, in his early days, advocated
schemes of a more extensive nature, nor should he consent
to such a measure of the wildest innovation, such as lie
considered the projected Reform to be.—(Hear, hear.) As
to the threat held out to their Lordships, that the exer-
cise of the King's prerogative would be resorted to in the
creation of new Peers, for the purpose of annulling their
decision, should they reject that Bill, he thought their
Lordships were not so degraded as to be influenced by such
a menace.—( Hear.) A great number of excellent persons
supported Reform ; but it was to be borne in mind, that
every plan which such persons proposed had at least this
peculiarity, that it received the support of all those who
were most disaffected to the Constitution.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of CLEVELAND having risen three or
four times for the purpose of addressing their Lordships,
in consequence of what had fallen from a Noble Marquis
opposite, he was happy that he had given way to the
Noble Baron, who was better qualified than himself to
reply to those points to which he might have spoken.
But he (the Marquis of Cleveland) had no wish to speak
upon the Bill, which was not yet before their Lordships'
House, nor of the provisions, of which they could
i knot.v
nothing.—(Hear, hear.) On the subject of the llunn-
Rations, lie thought it necessary to reply to the statement
of the Noble Marquis, that no person supporting the Go-
vernment, and friendly
to Reform, had been on that occa-
sion assailed by the crowds. But the fact was, that
although he (the Marquis of Cleveland) was well known
to be favourable to Reform, and to be a supporter of the
Government, he had been on that night one of the vic-
tims singled out as the object of that very unpleasant ex-
pression of
popular resentment, and his mansion bad been
much injured.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was remarking
upon the
changes of politics of the Marquis of Cleveland,
and his support of various Governments, when, amidst
loud cries of " Order,"
Earl GREY and one or two other Peers rose at the
same time to order.
The Marquesses of LoNnosneeitv and of CLEVELAND
made some explanations amidst loud cries of " Order,"
and calls for the Lord Chancellor. At length
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that although lie
had been alluded to from the earliest period of the discus-
!den till the conclusion of the speech of the Noble Earl
(Mansfield), he had hitherto abstained from offering him-
self to their Lordships' notice, because he preferred rather
to grapple with the important parts of the subject than to
engage in controversy on matters of a pers mai nature ; but
after having listened to the speech of the Noble E ail, lie
found it impossible any longer to refrain from statingenine-
thing for the candid consideration of the House and of the
Noble Earl himself, with respect to some points as to which
the Noble Earl—he must forgive him for saying so—had
shown himself to be partly ignorant and partly forgetful.
The speech of the Nob'e Earl had evidently undergone
some preparation. He was pleased to meet an adversary
who had buckled on his armour for the fight, and came
into the field with his loins girded up. He begged have
to set himself right with the Noble Earl, by setting the
Noble Earl and two other Lords right upon a matter of fact.
When he heard the untrue account, the incorrect state-
ment, of the three Noble Lords, he could not help making
the remark so often repeated, of the little confidence
which could be placed on historical statements of events
which might have occurred on the other side of the
globe centuries ago, when he saw the extraordinary errors
which had been committed by three contemporary his-
torians of varied talent, but equally good credit, who en-
joyed the advantage possessed by few historians of having
been eye-witnesses of the facts which they related. How
could confidence be placed in any history when
three con-
temporary historians were so lamentably defective in every
material circumstance of a scene which passed no longer
ago than Friday, the 22d of April last ? The Noble Lords
had charged him with having stated as a ground for the
dissolution of Parliament a vote of the House of Com-
mons of Thursday, the 21st of April. If i
he did make
that statement, he must have been the veriest dot that
ever yet rose to address a public assembly; for a debate
bad raged in the House of Commons on the subject of the
expected dissolution of Parliament for five hours before the
vote in question occurred. Did.he not know that he h d
a pre-
viously advised the King to dissolve the Parliament? Was
not the fact known to half-a-dozen people in that room?
Had he not issued orders for preparinga commission the night
very much en the cards that Parliament
before, it being v..
would be dissolved that evening ? He would tell the House
what he had said. —(" Hear," from the Opposition.) Since
he had sitters in that House, and before he crossed their
Lordships • ' bar to enter it, their Lordships had possessed
abundant opportuoity of knowing that whether right or

I wrong, he was not in the habit of shrinking from any
thing which he had stated. The cheer which he bad just
heard would only encourage him te do that which he
needed no excitement to perform. The words which he
made use of were so obvious, their meaning so distinct and
• plain, that it was astonishing they could be misunderstood.
The only Meaning which his words conveyed was that the
dissolution being a thing resolved upon, if any justification
of that step were necessary, it might be found in the con-
duct of the House of Commons on the preceding evening.
Though he was not bound to do so, yet he would adopt
the report of his observations which the Noble Lord hail
read. The report stated that "he had never seen before"
—(A cry of " Here they are," and the printed report was
passed along the Opposition bench until it reached his
Lordship.) " With great submission," said the Noble
and Learned Lord, " though I am your Lordships' speaker,
I shall be treated as every Peer in this House has a right
to he treated. By the favour of his Majesty I have the
honour to hold the first neat in this assembly. I will be
treated as every man in the House has a right to be
treated, and not to be assailed, as I fear ie al:tett/fled, foe
the purpose of interrupting my argument with criei df
Read ' which is a thing not permitted in either House
of Parliament, or at any meeting out of doors." The
Noble and Learned Lord then took the printed report and
read as fellows—" I never until now heard that the King had
not the right to dissolve Parliament when he saw fit, the
more particularly when the House of Commons have con•
sidered it proper to take the extreme and unprecedente 1
step of refusing the supplies." He was sure that any
twelve men sello read those words, and who were ac-
quainted with the circumstances under which they were
spoken, would put the same construction upon it that be
did. It mattered little whether in technical terms the
House of Comtnons refused the supplies, or whether they
adjourned without discussing them. The effect was the
same. If a man went to borrow money from another, it
was the same to him whether the latter shut the door in
his face and told him he would lend none, or whether,
without saying a word, he walked away, adjourn d him-
self, and left his friend to look at the walls instead of the
cash.—(A I nigh. ) He would now defend himself from
the charge of having conducted himself d srespectfullytowards
the House on the day of the dissolution. It had been his con-
stant endeavour to treat all men, be they his superior., as
their Lordships were, or his inferiors, if he had any, or his
equals, with the courtesy which one gentleman, or he
would rather say man of right feeling, owed to another.
He appealed to such of their Lordships as knew him,
whether such was not his conduct? He would not,
however, plead general character in defence against a par-
ticular charge. The story which the noble historian bad
related was untrue, from beginning to end. After the
character which he had just given of himself, their Lord-
ships might be surprised at his using those words.—(A
laugh.) He, however, did not mean them in an offen-
sive sense. It had been said that he threw his hat on
the woolsack and flounced out of the House in an un-
becoming manner, at a time when he well knew that
the King was no nearer to the House than the Horse-
guards. He did not leave tie House until he re-
ceived a positive order front the King, communi-
cated to him by the Gentleman Usher of the Black
Rod in these words :—" The King cloth command the
Lord Chancellor instantly to give his attendance upon hie
Majesty, who waits at the bottom of the staircase." It
appeared to him that the only person who bad any right
to be offended on that occasion, was the Gentleman Usher
of the Black Rod, who, finding him slow to obey the
summons, pulled him, with his usual courtesy, by the
sleeve—(Laughter)—and added, " Did you hear what I
said ? The King has arrived, and is at the lac.ttom of the
staircase." Whereupon he ran, or rather walked as swiftly
as he could, to meet his Majesty. He would now conic
to the subject of the illuminations, and the domestic cala-
mities of the Noble Marquis,. of which he seemed to en-
tertain that clear recollection with which some, in remem-
brance of a distinguished battle, have cherished the wounds
therein received, refusing to allow the darkness or the
trace to be removed. He would tell the Noble Marquis
that at the present moment he was acting anything
but a prudent part. It was well known, with respect
to the alarming disease now ravaging some parts of
Europe—the Indian cholera—that those who exposed
themselves to the open air were the most liable to
be infected, and to suffer, but those, on the other
hand, who eschewed open windows and spare diet—
that, in short, the Europeans, who took care of them-
selves, and lived well, escaped, while the poor natives,
who lounged about in the open air, were the parties
who suffered the most extensively and the most fa-
tally. He should, therefore, recommend the Noble
the Alarlar Marquis
butcher
to a
anvdo id open
the
elv windows,
ine.niereh and largely
wine-merchant.—(Laughter.)
)oti iise
With
respect to the hand-bill which it was said had ie3tacti by the
Lord Mayor, no one now charged the Lord Mayor with
being the author of that bill, for the paper which had
published the bill had been prosecuted in a Court of Law,
and it was found that no such bill had been issued. Still
it was lodged in the minds of men that there vas some-
thing in it. It had been said that the illumination might
have been prevented by sending for the Lord Mayor and
counselling him. As the Lord Mayor had taken upon
himself to counsel the late Administration, the present
Administration were to counsel the Lord Mayor to put
his head into a nest of hornets.—(Hear, hear.) Prevent
the illumination !—repress the demonstration of popular
feeling !—bridle the joy with which all London was ex-
ulting !—chain down the minds of 600,000 or 700,000
of his fellow-citizens, by throwing a little of the Home-
office dust in their eyes !

14ec certamina tanta
Pulveris exigui jactu compressa quiescent?
He (the Lord Chancellor) knew, indeed, the effect of popu-
lar feeling on this head, and had suffered from it; for
missiles were no respecters of persons—they smote 'Whig
as well as Tory. lie remembered when a certain Bill,
after sixty-four days' debate, was laid aside, there was a
ferment in the public mind, which led to an illumination,
and he (the Lord Chancellor) from no disinclination to
show a respect for that deeply injured and persecuted in-
dividual, and from no desire to conceal his unbounded joy
at the great triumph of justice, but by accident, forgot to
illuminate, and he was pelted, and his house was pelted.
Who were his Majesty's Ministers in those days? Mmn
with whom he had no connection, nor his Noble Friends.
Did they send to counsel the Magistrates to tell the people
not to put up lights? No; they had too much sense;
they knew their duty better than to think of such non-
sense. They had no right to tell them so. They had a
right to prevent a breach of the peace, but they had no right
to tell the people that they were not to testify their joy.
He would now make an observation or two on what had
fallen from a Noble Earl in the course of the present dis-
cussion—if discussion or debate it might be called. The
Noble Earl had spoken of disorder, and had clothed his
remark in an epigrammatic fashion, convinced that so
gilded, the dirt would strike deeper, and stick longer ; but
let the House observe the injustice of the Noble Earl, for
surely the Noble Lords on the Ministerial side of that
House lost more of the bad influence to be taken away by
the Reform Bill than Noble Lords on the other side of the
House had to part with. Having made that observation,
he would once and for all protest against the practice of
that irregular and anticipatory species of debate into which
they had that night, as on many ',lefts of the last Parlia-
ment, been betrayed. If he should hereafter fall into die-
eussions of that kind, he hoped the House would re-
member that he had been dragged into it. But though
he felt that reluctance which he had expressed, such re-
luctance did not arise from any want cf preparation to meet
Noble Lords upon any branch of the question ; for if he
were before prepared, and anxious for the fight, why
should he shrink from it now ? But there was one reason,
which with him weighed above all others—it was the in-
fluence and authority of that House with the other
branch of the Legislature. He thought it the more
necessary to I.e abstinent and cautious, when he remem-
bered that there never was a time when there were
larger interests at stake, and those interests deeply affect-
ing the constitution of the other House of Parliament ;
when he recollected, too, that respecting no measure did
there exist throughout the country so vehement a desire for
its completion ; and yet all the while it was one upon
which the representatives of the people were unhappily
divided, and respecting which even their Lordships, who
might be called the virtual representatives of the people.
were also unhappily divided. He called them the repre-
sentatives of the people ; for they were virtually so in
b'ood, honour, property, and all that could make the re-
presentatives of the people. Did not that earisideration
lead them to feel, that on the present occasion there was
demanded at their hands the utmost degree of deliberation
and of caution? Did not that lead their Lordships to feel
that they were bound to pause and to meditatse ? Did not
that justify him to counsel them to bethink themselves
well of the situation which God had assigned them under
the Monarchy and above the people? Should that House
then allow itself to be wanting in anything which could
show deliberation and caution and candour ? or should
they leave anything undone which by a shadow of a shade
might tarnish their reputations as virtual representatives
of the people, or hereditary Counsellors of the King ?
Should they, in such circumstances, permit themselves to
indulge in any
language rambling, desultory, o • disorderly
—hould they not, on the contrary, avoid that unprofitable
and worse practice of the last Parliament, and r Alter recut
to that better and inure ancient practice of former Par-
tO avoid all anticipating ditcutsloloa and every