The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-09 00:00:00

the population, return no more than one-third of the Represer,
tatives of the same persuasion as thelbselves, can any thi•ag
be more illustrative of 'the fallacy that Catholic:: would
unjustly predominate over Protestants in these Muncidal
bodies ?—( Hear.) And, after this, do you still persev•lre
in making us, as Sir J. Davies said, two nations ? And af,er
having made large concessions, halt at the last step of vow
progress to good government, and insult us by delaying th:tt
measure of justice which you must know that you cannot
eventually withhold? —( Lond cheers.) The voice of Englatal
declares that we must have justice.—(Cheers.) Scotland
reiterates the sentiment, and the people of Ireland will, I
trust, soon be in a position unanimously to, demand it.—
(Cheers.) After the expression of oi,inion which those of
the Irish party most strongly opposed to me have very re-
cently I.
obeyed, I cannot help thinking that after their feelings
of wounded pride and vanity have subsided, that they will
yield to the generous impulse of the love of country and af-
fectionate esteem for their fellow-subjects. They breathe the
same kindly air ; they ate children of the same soil ; and
though the Irish hand may for a time revolt, the Irish heart
cannot long withstand the natural bent of its feelings, which,
unlest you contrive to excite and embitter their minds by
maintaining a difference of Interest between them, will inevi-
tably lead to a cordial union, by accustoming them to the so-
cial intercourse of business in their corporate capacity.—
This is the view which you shouldtake; this is the question

you should agitate. I thank the Right Honourable Baronet
for alluding to my phrase about " peaceful agitation." I
never was anxious to know where he got the extract ; and I
saw that neither in the Mirror of Parliament or the Times
was this phrase reported at all. But in the Morning Post,
which, with the ex,:eptiOn of the Morning Chronicle, gives, in
my opinion, the most accurate reports, as well as in the Mom-
ing Herald, I was correctly reported. In the Morning
Chronicle my words are that these bodies " would be normal
schools for peaceful agitation." That is what I said. But
in my mind the great value of these Corporations is, that
they afford a vent for peaceable agitation. The waters of
political life are like those we consume—if they arc not agi-
tated properly, and at proper intervals. they become stagnant,
and spread a noisome vapour over the scene they might other-
wise enliven and enrich.—( Hear, hear.) I maintain that in
every free country peaceable political agitation, so far from
injuring, is absolutely necessary to the continuance of that
freedom. Peaceable agitation is, in fact, the price which
wise men pay for liberty.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, the Right Hon.
Baronet asks, " Will you, the British House of Commons,
encourage this political agitator ?" I ask the same question.
I ask you, the Commons of England, will you•encourage this
political agitator by giving him the most excellent arguments
and the most cogent motives for the continuance of his agita-
tion ?—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet asks again, will you
give to Ireland a measure of Corporate Reform similar to that
granted to England, after having so lately been obliged to
bind down that country by a Coercion Bill ? What because
a Whig Government in a moment of delusion and under mis-
conception► of the real state of our country gave us a Coercion
Bill, are we not to have the abuses which have crept into our
corporations remedied ?—( Hear.) Why, what were the cir-
cumstances under which that Coercion Bill was enacted ?
The Right Hon. Baronet was a member of the Government
when the first Coercion Bill was introduced, and sure am I,

that had he and the Noble Lord near him been then sittii-°r on
the side of the House from which they now speak, that dis-
graceful measure would never have been thought of. But
what, I ask, was the principal argument used by the intro-
ducers of that Bill to gain over to it the assent of the House ?
Was it not the promise that Abe just grievances of the Irish
people—and none more especially than those arising from the
existing abuse of corporate affairs—should be considered, and
with all possible dispatch removed ? The Government, upon
introducing the Bill, made terms with the House, and through
the House with the Irish people, and one of thosebeing a reform
of their corporation, it was to be now seen whether those terms
would be kept. Again, upon the debate on my motion for a
repeal of the union, what was the compromise proposed by
the Noble Lord who moved the amendment upon that occa-
sion ? Did he not distinctly promise that this very question of
Corporate Reform should form the subject of immediate and
satisfactory legislation.—( Hear.) If then, you disappointed
the Irish people in the hopes you yourselves held out to them,
if, after inducing them to abandon those questions which they
deemed the best and speediest remedies for their grievances,
but which to your feelings were displeasing, upon the distinct
understanding that the great defects in their system of govern-
ment should be amended or removed, you now turn round on
them and say, we will not keep faith with you, and we will
not fulfil the engagements we contracted with you—what, I
ask, do you expect from them ? Do you hope that with
"bated breath and whispering humbleness" they will turn to
you, and say, " True, you spit in my face, on Saturday, and on
Sunday you called me a maniac and a bigot—you have bro-
ken every promise with me, and held me bay as you would an
enemy and an assassin. Notwithstanding all this, however,
you shall have my good love, my counsel, and my services,
whenever and wherever you may desire them." Do you look
for this patience, this tameness from the people of Ireland?—
If you do, you will be deceived.—( Cheers.) We are ready to
forget as we have forgiven your Coercion Bill, and the tardi-
ness with which you have set about remedying our grievances ;
but in doing so we require that you remind us not of our
want of a seArate Legislature by doing us further injustice.
—( Hear, hear.) But while I am upon this general question
of agitation, let me ask the Right Honourable Baronet
opposite one question. He seems to think that the plan
contemplated by . the Noble Lord who originated this dis-
cussion, is to withdraw all occasion for agitation upon corpo-
rate matters. What ! Does he think that the visits of the
proposed Commissions will not give rise to agitation ? Does
he wrap himself up in the delusion that the people will tamely
arid quietly submit to the arbitration of these Commissions,
and that there will, upon their appointment, be an immediate
cessation of public meetings and political societies ?—( Hear.)
Whv, the enactment of such a measure as that proposed by
the Noble Lord, and the consequent rejection of that intro-
duced by the Government, will, on the moment, start up poli-
tical and revive Orange and Green Associations without num-
ber. Agitation shops would then become necessary, and
Ireland, feeling that now its voice is but faintly heard in the
council of the nation, will take means, such as it has not
hitherto contemplated, to have its claims heard. Depend upon
it, by the rejection or alteration of the Bill, as it stands, you
will not diminish agitation in Ireland.- Far from doing so—
you will encourage it by increasing the occasion for it ; and
though it may not present itself to your eyes in the same shape it
now assumes, rely upon it it will do so in another and a worse
one,—( Loud cheers.) Come, then, I entreat you, to your
only alternative. Come, then, to the peaceable agitation of
these normal schools. Come, then, and joining in harmony
and unity of purpose with his Majesty's Ministers, at least do
an act of common justice towards neglected and injured Ire-
land.—( Cheers.) The real question at issue, whether Ire-
land shall be tranquillized, and whether, by having dealt out
equal justice and similar laws with England, she is to con-
sider herself a portion of the British empire.—( Cheers.) This
is the question, and for God's sake" seek not to swamp it by
reference to matters and statements, and discussions which
arc not incidental to it, and must tend to impede its deliberate
and becoming decision. I now stand here before you the
authorised representative of three provinces of Ireland, and in
that capacity I tell you that I fling aside for ever the question of
repeal, and that I will join with you, if heart and hand you will
join with me in pacifying Ireland in the only way you will—you
can—you ought to attempt her pacification. These are my
terms. Will you or not assent to them ? Perpetual union—
perpetual combination, and the perpetual bond of equal pri-
vileges and equal right.—( Cheers.) Deny us these terms,
and let me tell you your union with Ireland will with one ef-
fort be rent asunder for, ever. (The lion, and Learned
Member resumed his seat amidst loud and prolonged cheers.)
Lord STANLEY, although he was well acquainted with
the power and influence which were exercised by the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, in that part of
the empire with which he had most immediate connection,
could not but hesitate on the simple assurance now given, au-
thorised though it was stated to be by the people of Ireland,
to enter into a compact with him as their plenipotentiary, be-
fore sonic security was given for the due performance of the
conditions, and before even it was shown that the lion. and
Learned Member was, as he represented himself, really in-
vested with the full power to make it.—( Cheers.) " Autho-
rized by the people of Ireland, I come here," exclaimed the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in his most grandiloquent, but
certainly not very argumentative speech, " I come here, au-
thorized by the people of Ireland, to tell you, the British House
of Commons, that we are willing to forget past injuries, and
to concert with you the conditions of future unity ; but if our
conditions are not acceeded to, I am then instructed to tell
you that again the banner of Repeal shall float upon the
breeze, until victory shall crown it with the laarels of triumph."
Such in terms had been the threat of Ireland's authorised ple-
hipotentionary—such in terms was the alternative which in
his capacity of authorised representative of Irish agitation,
the Honourable and Learned Member proposed,—( Hear,
hear.) And where, he begged to ask, was this boasted autho-
risation given ?—( Hear.) At a dinner in Tuam—( A laugh)
—a supper in the King's County—or at a meeting held in a
room in Dublin.—( Cheers and laughter.) And was the House
of Commons to be gravely told that on these specific occasions
the people of Ireland had given their plenipotentiary such an
authority to act for them as they could, with either dignity or
propriety, entertain ?—( Hear.) Why, even if the lion. and
Learned Gentleman needed an authority to act for a large por-
tion of the people of Ireland, no authority could be communi-
cated to him in such a manner.—( Hear.) It seemed to him
that the Hon. and Learned Member had cautiously avoided
going very deeply into this question.—( Cheers.) Numerous,
without doubt, were the topics to which he had adverted, and
powerful Lad been the language which, upon this occasion as
upon all others, he employed in discussing those topics ; but
with an extreme of ca'.tion he had confined himself to a simple
declaration of the resolution to which he and those he repre-
sented had come—that resolution being expressed in the words
" we must have equal justice, or we will have nothing' at all."
Cheers.) There was to be no base compromise." No
single point was to be flinched from—(Cheers)—and no
matter how or by what means brought about, there was to be
a perfect, entire, uniform equalisation of condition and laws
between the two countries, without even a reference to
their totally dissimilar positions and entirely varied cireum-
stanees.—( Hear.) " Equal justice we will have," mildly ex-
claimed the Hon. and Learned Member, " or else Repeal.!'—
' ( Hear.) Now he ( Lord Stanley) begged to ask who was to
define for that House what in Ireland was meant by the words
" equal justice ?—( Hear. ) Were th -y, upon any question—
no matter what its natruc to take the word of the Hon. and
Learned Member on this point ?—([lsar, hear, bear.) Were
they, he asked, to apply to the term " equal justice" such
meaning as, in the spirit of the moment, or on the impulse of
the moment, or for the political purpose the lion. and Learned
Gentleman might choose to attach to it.—( Renewed cries of
" Hear, hear, hear.") It was not so many years since Catho-
lie Emancipation was designated by the party which the Hon.
and Learned Member so peculiarly represented as the all in

all of equal justice.—(Loud cheers.) Upon the passing of
that, measure it was stated that no more demands were to be
made, that a perfect equality was then obtained, and that Ire-
land had no further ground for complaint. Had such proved
th 3 case? Alas ! far from it. Thep were now told that Ire-
land was labouring under a stigma, and that it would ever
consider itself under disgrace unless the same laws which were
passed for England were passed for Ireland.—( Hear.) The
same laws ?—did the words "equal justice" mean the same
laws, or did they not mean the same laws?—(Hear.) In the
course of the discussion several Honourable Members had
stated that they would not be satisfied until they obtained full
justice for Ireland.—( Hear.) The people of Ireland said so,
and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, the authorized
Representative of that people, or a majority of' them, said so,
and therefore it must be done.—( Hear.) To this he replied,
" So should the House of Commons say, so would he say."—
( Loud cheers.) Ile (Lord Stanley) as a Member of that
House now proclaimed that he would never be satisfied until
equal justice was established in Ireland.—(Cheers.) He
would not be satisfied until he saw every man of every sect, of
every profession, of every station in life, however humble or
exalted, brought tilder the control and domination, but at the.
same time under the protection, of one and the same law.—
( Cheers.) He would not be satisfied until he saw in Ireland
life secured against ‘iadictievness, barbarities restrained, and
' the laws carried into effect for the protection of the people, of
the people- at large.—( Cheers.) What, he asked, was the
object of having different Bills for the two countries—and
why was it not so arranged that by a single clause each Bill
pas.sed for the one country might be extended to the other?
—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
spoke last seemed to be much disappointed that no one had
stood up to deend the exclusive system of the old Cerpo-
ratoas of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell.) He
(Lord Stanley) for one had never defended them, and he was
tot then about to do so. He admitted that they were bad
in principle—that they were not adapted to the spirit of the
day—and that they were altogether inconsistent with the
present state of satiety.—. (Cheers.) He admitted this—nay
more, he claimed that they were so, because upon the admis-
sion of that fact was entirely founded the measure of a bleb he
was the advocate. While, however, making this admission,
he contended that while about to pull down that which was
unsuited to the present state-of the country, they were bound
to look to the substitute which it was proposed to call into
existence, and that they should consider more whether the
measure proposed was expedient and necessary for Ireland, and
not merely the fact that it had been enacted for England.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had contended
that the most advisable plan would be to sweep away Corpo-
rations at once and for ever.—(Hear, hear.) Why so it was
contemplated by the proposition which he (Lord Stanley)
supported; while by that proposed by Government, mayors,
recorders, sheriffs, town-clerks, mace-bearers,' purse-bearers,
and the whole paraphernalia of Corporations were continued,
and even extended ; and that in a manner which, he was ready
to prove, would be a curse to the several boroughs, and at the
same time most dangerous to the -peace of the empire at
large.—( Hear.) He desired to say one word with reference
to the argument of those Gentlemen who do not ask that
a Bill precisely the same as that passed for England should
be extended to Ireland, but who, nevertheless, contended
for the adoption of one and the same prihciple in the two
measures. In the first place he had to observe, that the
expression, " adoption of one and the same principle," was
a somewhat vague one, especially when addressel to the
HouSe by tho. e who were the advocates for an identity of'
interests between the two countries. What was meant by this
principle alluded to? Was it that of popular control ?
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
cheered him—might lie ask what that Right Hon. Gentleman
meant by the principle of popular control ? Did he mean the
giving to a certain class the power of making the laws, or the
power of appointing those who should be qualified to make the
laws, or the power of reverence of the laws, or the power of
control over their administration, through the medium of puli
licity ? All these four attributes, namely, of absolute legis-
lation, the appointment of legislators, the power of superin-
tendence, and veto and publicity to all, were but the modifi-
cations of that which was designated popular control. Now,
what was meant by popular control ? Those who contended
for a similarity of measures for the two countries, told him
that they wanted the principle of popular control introduced
into the Irish Corporations. Now what did they mean by the
term ? Popular control might be the control of 50/. house.
holders, or of 20/. householders, or of 10/. householders, or
of 51. householders—in short, the control of any set of indi-
viduals in the kingdom.—( Hear, hear.) The control of any
of those classes would strictly speaking be popular control ;
and yet upon their difference depended not merely a detail,
but the very principle of the measure to be adopted.—( Cries
of " oh, 0t,.") Why, cotiel ;it be contended that the 10!.
franchise was a mere detail of the Reform Bill ? Was it not
the very base and essence of the measure ?—( Hear, hear.)
Well then, it being admitted that the differences of the qualifi-
cation over which the term popular control might be made to
extend were several, was it not necessary, in order to bring
England and Ireland under a similarity of circumstances, that
they should adopt an. identity of qualification.—( Hear, and
bries of " No, no," from the Ministerial benches ) He al-
most despaired of making his argument intelligible to the
Hon. Gentlemen who cried " No ;" but; nevertheless, he
would try.— ( A laugh.) When the English Municipal Re-
form Bill was under consideration, would it not have been
considered to make a material alteration in the whole cha-
racter of the measure, if, instead of fixing the. amount of
qualification at 101. a year, it had been fixed at 501. or 20/. ?
Certainly, it would have been so considered.—( Hear, hear.)
When, therefore, they were told that they were to apply the
same principle to the Irish as they had adopted in the ,
English Bill, was it not evident they failed in doing so,
unless they named the qualification of 10/. house-
holders.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Again, what were the qua-
lifications as to residence, &c. in the English Bill? Per-
manence of residence, and a permanent payment of rates for
three years, were made essential. Were these qualifica-
tions required in the Irish Bill ? Neither one or the other of
them. In that latter measure, but a six months' residence,
with a Si. qualification, and without any payment of rates,
was all that was required ; and that, they were told, was, as
regarded Ireland,• an identity of legislation with the 10/. qua.
lification, with permanent residence and payment of rates, of
the English Bill.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Le erne 1
Member who in the last session introduced the Ministerial
plan of Irish Municipal Reform to the House, hal endeavoured
in his statement to apologise for this-discrepancy ; his argu-
ment being, that in the vast majority of the towns of Ireland,
it would-be impossible to find a 101. constituency for the new
corporations. Now, if that was the case, his (Lord S:ar:-
ley's) argument in reply was, that where a 101. constituency
could not be had, there was no claim, no need, or indeed use
for a Corporation.—( Hear, hear.) Surely it could not be
said that the wealthy town of Londonderry, containing a po-
pulation of 10,900 souls, could not find a most numerous 101.
constituency.--( Hear.) Then, he maintained, it was not
necessary to go so low as a Si. franchise. It would be said,
doubtless, that if there was anything in his argument for
withholding Corporations altogether, it only applied to the
small towns, and could not apply to such places as Belfast,
Dublin, or Cork. Now, upon this point he begged to ask,
in what respect was the City of Westminver inferior '
in importance or extent, to the cities of Dublin, Bel-
fast, or Cork ? Why, when such towns as Manchester, Bir-
mingham, Sheffield, or themetropolitan boroughs of London,
which, up to this day, had progressed most nourishingly with-
lout Corporations, and which, up to the present hour, had never
gone so far as to petition for corporate charters, should it be so
necessary to give them even to the largest towns in Ireland ?
—( Hear, hear.) It was a thorough fallacy to suppose, that
by withholding or doing away with Corporations, towns were
deprived of the benefits of municipal gcverninent. It had
been that evening clearly shown by the Honourable Men .b r
'for Belfast—that Hon. Member whose return to Parliament
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin said reflectel shame
upon the constituency of Belfast, but which, in his (Lord
Stanley's opinion, reflected upon that body high honour—
(Cheers)—that Hon. Member showed diAinc.ly that in the
case of the town of Belfast there were for all municipal pur-
poses separate boards, some under the control of the Crown,
and some under popular election, by which all matters of mu-
nicipal arrangement were carried on without the intervestion
of any Corporation whatever. The total amount of Corpo-
rate property in Ireland was 61,3971. OF this 28,0001. be-
longed to the Corporation of DUblin, while of the remaining
33,0001. there was claimed by five towns only 21,8001. leaving
to the remaining forty-tour towns but 11,0001. Now could it
be contended that it was expedient for the cal e of this insig-
nificant sum to tax the inhabitants of those forty-four towns
with all the expenses attendant upon municipal paraphernalia ?
—( Hear.) But a great part of the revenue of these corpora-
tions arose from tolls. This was especially the case at Cork
and Kilkenny. Now it was an undisputed fact, that it would
be impossible to confer a greater benefit on Ireland than to
abolish the system of tolls, wherever they could be abolished.
" But," said the lion. Member for Waterford, " will you con-
sent to the appropriation of the tolls, which arc the property of
these corporations, to other purpoies ?" No ; but he would
institute an inquiry into the nature of the tolls ; he would
inquire what were the functions of the corporations ; be would
inquire what benefit would accrue to the inhabitants from the
remission of the tolls ; and if he could satisfy himself that the
remission of the tolls would be advantageous to the people of
Ireland, and especially to the inhabitants of towns, he would
prefer the abolition of tolls to any proposed system of self-
government. He had no jealousy of the people of Ireland as to
their superintendence of local objects, if to local objects that
superintendence were confined. We had no jealousy of the
Catholics of Ireland as Catholics. But on considering the
subject he was bound to look at the present state of Ireland.
In the constitution of the new boards control must be con-
ferred, influence must be given on the part of Catholics aga'nst
Protestants, or Protestants against Catholics, in every little
town of Ireland. lie was sorry that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin had gone away the moment he saw him
(Lord Stanley) rise ; because it was always pleasanter to say
any thing in answer to any one in his presence rather than in
his absence. That Hon. and Learned- Gentleman in answer
to 60111 C observations made by his Right Hon. Friend the
Member for Cumberland, with respect to the disrespectful
conduct of the Rev. John Burke to Ensign Matson, of the
59th, who had attended the Roman Catholic chapel, in com-
mand of a detachment of Roman Catholic soldiers, said
that he was quite sure no Roman Catholic clergy man
would use the word " heretics," in the manner imputed.
Now he (Lord Stanley) had turned to the minutes of
evidence given before the Committee of 1832 on the state
of Ireland ; and lie found Ensign Matson stating that
Mr, Burke had said from the chapel, I will tell you
what it is, boys, the tottering fabrics of the heretics are
falling about their ears, whilst the Catholic religion
is rising
boysi,ngin g; 1 o
ity will
day.slial 1 I Ireland
Catholic was
I, o-enlcne.d C.el t hc
being asked if he had used those expressions, Mr. Burke re-
a "Olili
Ireland,
re-
plied, " The word ' boys' I did not use. I said, 'the tottering

fabric of heresy was falling around us, while the Catholic reli-
gion was rising in glory,' undonbtedly."—( Hear, hear.) And
',vet the lion. and Learned Gentleman contended, that no Ro-
man Catholic clergyman would bring himself to use so offen-
sive a term as heretc. There was also the case of Lieutenant
Blown—in which case words were used by the Catholic priest
at the altar of so offensive a nature, that the officer was com-
pelled to march his troeps ont of the chapel. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin said that he was aware he !led
too much influeace in Ireland. and that he wished that in,-
fluence were diminished. Good easy man ! He did not de-
sire popularity an I power, no ; he sighed for obscurity ; and
recommended that the influence which he possessed should be
diminished. The lion. and Learned Gentleman had told his
Majesty's Ministers so ; and his Majesty's Ministers believed
Lim.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin said that this was the last qep. Who knew that it
would be the last step ? Who believed that it would be the
last step ?—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman said that the Protestant religion was the established
religion in England. because Protestants formed the majority
of the population ; and that the Presbyterian religion was the
established religion. in Scotland, because Presbyterians
formed the majority of the population. The Hun. and Learned
Gentleman proceeded to declare that equal justice ought to be
done to Ireland. What could that mean, but that the religion
of the great majority of the population of Ireland should pre-
vail, and that that should become the established religion. e—
( Hear, hear. ) And why was it that the Hon. Gentle-_.an said
the population of Scotland obtained their existing religious
establishment? Because they had broadswords,
sharp and
long.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Would the House of Cor•mons
listen to such arguments ? Would they believe that this was
the last step. _e( Hear, bear, hear.) No ; the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin avowedehe existence of ulterior
objects. He had ulterior objects (and his Majesty's Govern-
ment knew it) far beyond any hitherto disclosed.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) The object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
evident, and he went straight forward to it. Ile ( Lord Stan-
ley) did nottlame him; but if he might do so without offence.
he would apply to his Noble and Hon. Friends opposite the
words, severe and earnest in their meaning, which the greatest
of our writers had put into the mouth of one of the most finely
drawn of his characters, when addressing those who had raised
Bolingbroke to the throng of England :
" I cannot blame his cousin king,
That wish'd him on the barren mountains siarv'd.
But shall it be, that you—that set the crown
Upon the head of this forgetful man,
And, for his sake, wear the detested blot
Of murd'rous subornation—shall it be •
That you a world of curses undergo,,
Being the agents, or base second insane,
The cords, the ladder, or the 1-.,ingman rather ?-
0, pardon me, that I des:caul so low
To show the line; a ;
s.-.A the predicament.
Wherein yoo 'range under this subtle king—
Shall it, 'or shame, be spoken in these days, .
Or fill up chronicles in times to come,
That men of your nobility and power,
bid gage them both in an unjust behalf—
As both of you, Gad pardon it ! have done—
To put down Ri.thard, that sweet lovely rose,
And plant this thorn, this canker, Bolingbroke?
And shall it, in more shame, be further spoken,
That you are fooi'd, discarded, and shell; off
By him, for whom these shames ye .underwent ?
No; yet time serves, wherein- you may redeem
Your ban:sled honours, and restore yourselves
, • Into the good thoughts of the world again :
Revenge the jeering, and disdain'd contempt,
Of this proud king, who studies, day mei night,
• To answer all the debt he owes to you,
Even with the bloody payment of your deaths."
He called on his Majesty's Ministers ; he entreated them ; he
implored them ; were it only for their own sakes, to dare to
fill the stations which they appear to occupy, to do equal and
impartial justice to all classes and denominations of his Ma-
jesty's subjects; to support, maintain, and uphold nu equal ad-
ministration of the law; and with respect to Ireland, espe-
cially, to be the faithful protectors and friends of every party,
without making themselves the slaves of any.—( Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that although he was bound to
maintain deetrines which were perfectly .consistent with the
policy of this country, yet he, notwithstanding, found him-
self in a singular position. In former times he had had to
contend that it was incumbent on the Government to reform
and not to destroy our institutions; that there was sufficient
worth and excellence in them to make it desirable to bring
th.en back to their ancient intents; hut he.now found himself,
whilst advocating these • doctrines, opposed by those win
st, led themselves the Conservatives of this country. It was
they who came forward and maintained that it was rash to
preserve these institutions, that the institutions were utterly
foolish, and that no term of opprobrium was too heavy, and
ne sentence of extinction too severe, to be uttered against
them.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") They who maintained
opinions so different from what they had formerly held had
no right to call upon Ministers for extraordinary exertions to
prove that their case was that which ought to be adopted by
the House. It was for them to show that there was something
so peculiar in the corporations of Ireland, that Ministers ought
to abandon their principles. To show that the doctrines
which he entertained were those of a great authority, the Noble
Lord proceeded to read an extract from the works of Burke,
after which he stated that what he had read contained the words
of one of the greatest men this couutry ever produced, and re-
lated to the revolution of their great neighbour France. (The
words of the extract read did not reach the gallery.) He
would then proceed to consider the schemes of the Noble
Lord and of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. At that
late hour he would confine himself only to the chief points of
the question, without speaking at any length upon the general
scheme of the Bill. He would content himself with observing,
that it was the same as the Bill of last year, that its purport
was to preserve the corporations, but to place them under
more vigilant popular controul, and to assimilate them more to
their original intention. After alluding to the principal provi-
sions of the Bill, and expressing his surprise that it should be
considered as interfering with the adininistration,pf justice, the
Noble Lord, with reference to the proposition of the Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the other side of the house, observed that their e.hjec,-
tion was to giving the power under this bill to corporate bodies,
and their wish to vest that power it, a commission. Surely
such a thing had never before been heard of as taking away
from towns the controul over property, as well as the property
itself, which had been from time to time specifically left them.
On the subject of tolls he professed his perfect willingness to
enter into an inquiry with the serious and sincere intention of
placing them upon the best possible footing that circumstances
would permit. In illustration of the facilities which existed
for that purpose, he should mention the case of tolls which
were payable in Galway, which were held in trust, the payment
of which had been for some time suspended, and which finally
had been brought under the jurisdiction of the Court of
Chancery in Ireland when .Sir Anthony Hart filled the offico
of Lord Chancellor. The decision which that learned judge
gave on the subject proved satisfactory to the parties con-
cerned, and thenceforward the tolls were regularly paid, from
which the inference was obvious, that if the mode of levying
the tolls were equal and just, as well as their application
according to law and for the good of the community, the dif-
ficulties which in some places had arisen with regard fo the
collection of those tolls would totally disappear.—(Hear,
hear.) He would now mention another fact. It so
happened that some tolls were payable in Ennis to a Noble
Lord-. he believed he might mention his name—they were pay-
able to Lord Egremont. According to his charter he could
collect those tolls only on a Tuesday, and the result was that
the people brought all the articles on which toll could be
charged to market on other days ; but what did the Govern-
ment of that period ? The Right Hon. Baronet; time Member
for Tammvorth, being then Prime Minister, and the Right Hon.
and gallant Officer opposite, the Chief Secretary for Ireland—
What, he would ask, had been done?
every day of the week.—( Loud cheers from the Ministerial
granted to the Noble Lord entitling him to c"Tio'Yliecatl ihisarttoelrls"u'aris
side.) That occurred in the month of February, 1535 ;it was,
therefore, but very recently that the opponents of the present
measure evinced so much zeal in favour of the abolition of all
imaginable corporate rights. The zeal with which they were
now animated must be regarded as something perfectly novel,
as so exceedingly recent, that it must have sprung up in the
course of a very short time—having been actually the growth
of the very last winter.
Sir H. H A RDINGE wished to be made acquainted with
the 'authority upon which the Noble Lord made the foregoing
statement.

Lord J. RUSSELL resumed, but we did not hear the ob-
servation which immediately followed. lI then proceeded to
say, that between the two measures—that presented for their
acceptance by his Majesty's Government, and that recom-
mended them by the Noble Lord and the Right lion. Gentle-
man opposite, there existed very clear and distiuct grounds
of choice—very wide, indeed, was the difference between the
rash and raidd course which came supported by the advocacy
of the other side of the Ilouse, and that calm deliberate regard
to the rights of person and property which, as he would
contend, characterized the Bill introduced by his Majesty's
Government, although the individuals who were row tae
friends of destruction were formerly those who announced
the necessity of proceeding with -the utmost caution, in tho
most gradual manner, and with the least possible violence,
even to the form of existing institutions. The full admission
of Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite on former
occasions most certainly was, that we not only ought to have
Municipal Corporations in all the great towns, but that there
should be as little departure from ancient models as was found
consistent with the establishment of a good system qMhuni-
cipal Government. Surely the House must agree
with im,
that i, the plan nw proposed for the purpose of enabling.
hers opposite to get out of the embarrassments_m which they
found themselves placed was a most clumsy and common ex.
pedient that it was a rash and revolutionary contrivance, in
order to sustain institutions faulty in_ themselves, and un-
worthy and incapable of a protracted existence.--(llear,)
He looked in vain in the speeches made last week by. the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland, or that
made during the present discussion by the Noble Lord the
Member for Lancashire, for anythinr, like a reason where-
with to sustain the proposal that hadproceeded from !be
. other side. When he spoke of a reason, he of course al-
t
luded to something, of a kind that ought tc prove satisfac-
tory to a ratior al mind. There was, he acknowledged,
something that bore the shadow and Semblance of a rcasoo.
and that was that the Roman Catholics formed the great
major:ty of the people of lreland.—(Cheers from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) If that were to be received as a reason,
he begged to inquire for what purpose bad the measure of
Roman Catholic Emancipation been passed, if it were not
in spirit to be carried through all our institutions ? lie
hesitated not to say, that that great change had not yet
been carried through our institutions as its authors, or at least
its earlier advocates Originally designed ; and to him it ap-
peared that there was nothing of wisdom or of police, still
less of justice or of generosity, it-, delaying to let its spirit
enter into all our councils, and form au element in every pro-