The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-05 00:00:00

to
v th. e
subject itself than to the pledge in which it appears to
Theme in case I shall assent to the Address.—( Hear.)
bel
Right Hon. Baronet here read the passage in the Address
relating to Municipal Reform in Ireland, and continued—Now it
appears to me if I assent to these terms, I contract an obli-
gationat.oi to extend the same principles of Municipal Reform
which have been recognised in the Bills relating to England
and Scotland, to Ireland also. It might hereafter be said
that the Address pledged me to nothing, but 1 desire to guard
myself against being misunderstood. I will not be a party to
objectept. If it is meant that I should give a pledge, I
anyany consideration of the merits of the question itself. I ob-
tOu to because I think it unfair, on the notice of an
course be called upon to pledge myself to any particular
`?"1 upon a question so important. I say you have no
rig" to call upon me to give a pledge, by assenting
te the Address, without letting us have a notice of your inten-
tion.
tell When the measure comes under discussion you might
me I was too late to object not haVing done so now, and I
AY it is unfair, it is unjust to call for. a pledge on so important
a subject at a moment's consideration. I say it is unfair to ask
us to commit ourselves to the principles of the English Munici-
pal Reform Bill in the consideration of that for Ire-
land. You have a knowledge of what it is in-
tended to to propose ; we have no cognizance thereof,
unfair on the occasion of our first meeting,
that wet
should be called upon to pledge ourselves to any par-
ticular principles in the course we should follow. This pledge
is inconsistent with the course which has been followed for the
by twenty years ; it is inconsistent with the course followed
uy all former Governments and oppositions ; upon all Govern-
ments which felt inclined to avoid the introduction of all terms
ic_alculated to force upon the opposition the necessity of mov-
ing an amendment to the Address. The Speech and the
Address were so framed on all, former occasions, as
though they referred to topics of the first importonce to
u? people of this country, and although they intimated the
?pinions of the Government thereon, yet did not so pledge
the House as to call for ally amendment. from those who
dissented from the views taken by his Majesty's Ministers.
4..81,3' this has been the practice for the last twenty years,
'flog which period measures of equal importance with the
present had been submitted to Parliament, and at a time when
ak
variance existed in the opinions entertained respecting them;
yet
the address was always so framed as to dispense with the
ecessity of moving an amendment to it. When the Catholic
question in 1829 was brought under the consideration of Par-
t!
.m• ent in the speech from the Throne, the terms in which
this thosHouse replied to that communication, did not impose upon
who were unfriendly to the removal of the Catholic dis-
abilities, any necessity of opposing it. At the time when the
parliament Bill was brought forward, after the dissolution of
although you could have carried a motion pledging
the House to the principles of that measure by a large majority
yet you you did not press it. I therefore have the experience of
t
last twenty years in my favour. All past addresses have
been so framed as to dispense with the necessity of moving an
4mendrnent. I refer also in proof of the injustice of the pre-
thosesent ourse from the terms in which this subject is noticed. to
in which others are alluded to in the address. It touches
other topics, it refers to other principles, but it requires no
Pledge upon them;—it requires no pledge on the Tithe
question, on the Church question, or on that relative to
oor Laws: on these subjects it is content with saying that
we are ready to give them an impartial consideration, while
!Pon this it goes further, and it calls upon us to bind ourselves
1-0 the adoption of similar principles with those which have been
'recognised in the measures for England and Scotland. Should
1.0 not merely state our readiness to consider the subject in a
"'antler calculated to promote the peace and prosperity of the
!Mntry ? I protest against the justice of this course—l say it
1111.Mfair, at a moment's notice, to be called on for a pledge
lch it would require 24 hours time for consideration. I
itu
PPeal to another authority—to the good sense, judgment, and
candour of the Gallant Gentleman who moved the Address,
rill% in speaking on this subject, said it was not the inten-
.°!l to require a pledge. I will not incur the risk of ex-
ell,ng expectations which may be disappointed, nor shall I
`"filarrass my future proceedings by a pledge which,l ought
1,!.2t to give.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The Right
itillonotnable Baronet went on to express his dissent from
ieowse proposed, and declared that it was his advice
tnose with whom he generally acted, not to move an
1• endment, if by possibility it could be avoided; but the
fr'neiples upon which it was proposed to act in the measure
tt. r Corporate Reform in Ireland, were such as to render
t` course he now proposed unavoidable.—(Hear, hear.)
icrijaY be said if you propose there shall be no Reform or Mu-
Corporations, are you prepared to defend the principle
tnat which exists? As I said before, lam not, but I wish
"ot to enter into the question now, as I shall have a future
etiertunity of doing so. There is only one other objection
which
I wish to advert to, and that is—l am asked to apply
the
same principle of Reform to Ireland that has been applied
• cmgland._( Hear, hear.) Now, in the first place, what
sa. the principle?—( Cheers.) The destruction of self-election
laY be a principle—( Cheers.) Can any thing be more diffi-
tutte lt
,than to define what is a principle ?—( Cheers.) You say
.
uestruction of self election is one principle, you are at
liberty to define what are the principles, and there is the great
Lliffieultv for you may get from me a pledge to a principle
•111neich. Ido not- uncle rstand.—( Cheers.) I am prepared to give
fai important subject of Municipal Reform in Ireland a
>h-:and dispassionate consideration, but I reserve to myself
„l2ower of approaching it perfectly unfettered.
,I admit
thee.'Must be extensive alteration. I am not now entering into
be i„"lisideration of self-election, but I object on principle,
th:g Called upon to give any pledge. I reserve to myself
-,Power of disposing of the question unfettered. I intend
%.*° look not at words, but at things.—( Hear, hear.) I
elfto myself the power of considering the bearings
11 this question in every point of view.—( Cheers.)
it is not necessary for me to attempt to vindicate
self-election or exclusion of certain parties from offices; but
wheel I come to consider the question, I will look after
the whole state of Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) I will ask whe-
ther, under pretence of removing one exclusion, I am not
co.-tfirming another ?—( Great cheering.) I shall look to
who m power will be given.-_( Tremendous cheering.) I shall
look to what object the power to be given is to be applied, and
if I Conscientiously believe it will conduce to strengthen
the co nection between the two countries, and will con-
firm those ancient settled institutions constituting the Go-
vernment, which my Hon. Friend has said he is determined to
• maintain, -.then I will consent to give it my support, but I will
not be deceived by principles and analogies.--( Hear, hear.)
I will not allow the same principle of Municipal Reform
to he applied in Ireland as in England, unless I feel
'certain that it will be for the good of that country__
(Cheers.) I shall, therefore, Sir, move an amendment
the Address, which will be in precise conformity with every
her paragraph, and with the usages and principles of Par-
'lament. I shall propose that those words in the Address
niell pledge me to adapt the same principles to Ireland as
ve already been applied to England, shall be left out and
8111131stitu eing ted by the following :—" To assure his Majesty that
in possession of the Report of the Commissioners,
Ive will proceed without the least delay to the consideration
7 t,Say defects in the Municipal Institutions of, Ireland as will
insure the • tial administration of justice."--(Cheers.)
impartial
The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down by proposing the
eleenchnent.
„ Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I think I am consulting
convenience of the House and, certainly, my own, in
itnt immediately after the 'Right Honourable Baronet,
oiler some remarks upon the observations which fell from
1P- I will take these observations in the order they were
-Wmered by the placed on. Baronet, and I will say a few
ttlalrds, in the first with respect to the foreign affairs of
e country, and I will then go on to offer some re-
'narksisk upon the state of our domestic affairs. The
L."''ght Honourable Baronet's first criticism upon the
,741,ress, or rather upon his Majesty's Speech, was with regard
the intervention in Spain ; and he asks how we, who were
,;iways hostile to intervention with foreign nations, could ad-
-5e his Majesty to say in his Speech what now appears in it ?
V?lear.) Surely the Right Hon. Baronet knows that
Nit we are sincerely against all intervention in other
mangles—surely, the Right Hon. Baronet, when he made
that
t observation, must have forgot tat this country was a party
a treaty which the Government were bound to carry into
.o
'leeution, We are parties to that treaty, and we say that it
was absolutely necessary to carry them into full execution.—
(Hear, and cheers.) Whether the principle of intervention or
non-intervention be the wiser principle of the two, was
question which the Government had not in this case an
opportunity of discussing, for his Majesty was already bound
and fettered by treaty. With respect to the mode of the in-
tervention, that is also regulated by treaty ; and it was, I be-
lieve, a matter of boast to the late Ministry. At all events,
it is much to the honour of the Duke of Wellington, that while
fie• *
Was in the Foreign Office, he carried into full effect the sti-
pulations of the treaty with Spain, and had most studiously
114t°Pp any aid or supplies from being sent from this country
Don Carloss. The Right Honourable Baronet next al
„,'`nded to the increase of the navy, which is recommended by
ts Majesty; and he asked, at the same time, whether li
4."43 intended to cast any reflection upon the late Government
L°r their administration of the affairs of that important bran&
710tir military means, though at the same time the Right Hon.
aronet said that he scarcely gave credit to the supposition,
tir, in that he wa.e right, for the Government had not the
iltest intention of doing so. This is an increase which we
tnink
is necessary upon many grounds, which will be ex-
plained at the proper time—at the present moment I
will only say that it appears to me to be justified upon the
grotmd, that our being a great maritime power, we ought not
'to be great:ly inferior to other powers-. This, he thought, is a
Wise principle—it is a principle not implying anything hostile
-o any foreign p,-nver., but at the same time-putting ourselves
z
that situation, that no power will be induced to' insult
this country ( Hea:')—on the ground that it is not
'II a state of defence; 'Therefore, instead of this being a pre-
Potation for war, it is an additional security for the preserva-
tion of peace. (Cheers.) With respect to the observations
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, relative to the unfortunate de-
angement between the United Stai2s and France, I am sure
that every one in this country will respond to those observa-
tions ; and the interference of this country, while it ensures
the continuance of peace, is a pledge of the stability of the
.'riendly relations which exist between these two Powers
an d England.—( Hear.) I shall not enter at any length
into the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman relative to
the Court of Chancery; but this I will say, that I am satisfied
my Hon. and Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General) will be
able to sh ow that these arrears have not been materially in-
creased by the putting of the Great Seal into Commission.—
(Hear.) I may further add, that having it in contemplation,
from almost the first moment when the Government was con-
stituted, to p; ace the administration of justice in the Court of
Chancery upon a different footing,. we considered it wise and
expedient to take the course of putting the Great Seal into com-
mission before this great office was disposed of, in order that we
bo goaded to men not only of
might be sure that it would