The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-20 00:00:00

REFORM BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then m wed the order of the
day for the third reading of the Reform in Parliament
(England) Bill.
The SPEAKER then said, those that are of this opinion
say " Aye,"—( here the simultaneous sound of many voices
echoed " Aye")—those of the contrary opinion say " No."
Immediately on this being put, and before any responses
had been given,
Sir JAMES SCARLET' rose ; every eye was fixed,
and the deepest anxiety seemed to preimminate in the
House. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not beard to
utter any thing ; but having almost instantaneously re-
sinned his seat, cries of " in time," " order," and " di-
vide," became loud from all parts of the House.
Strangers being then ordered to withdraw, the gallery
was cleared for a nivisien.
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the third reading
Against it 5B
Majority for Ministers
On our re-admission into the gallery, many of the
Opposition Members were flocking into the House not
having been in the division, and this circumstance caused
much laughter.

Lord J. RUSSELL then rose to move for leave to bring
up the following clause, which it was intended to add by
way of rider to the Bill:
" And be it enacted, that if a dissolution of the pre-
sent Parliament shall tlke place after the passing of
this Act, and before both Houses of Parliament shall
have voted addresses to his Majesty, praying his Ma-
jestry to issue his Royal proclamations as hereinhe-
fore mentioned, in such case such persons only as
would have been entitled to vote in the election of Mem-
bers to serve in a new Parliament is case this Act had
not been passed, shall be entitled to vote in such election.
and the proceedings at all such elections shall be regulated
and conducted in the same manner as if this Act bad nut
been passed ; but if a dissolution of the present Par-
liament shall take place after both Houses of Par-
liament shall have voted such addresses as aforesaid,
and before the last day of April, in the year 1832, in
such case such persons only shall be entitled to cote in
the election of Members to serve in a new Parliament for
any county, part, riding, or division of a county, city, or
borough, as would have been entitled to be inserted in
the respective lists of voters for the same directed to be
made under this Act, if the day of election had been the
day for making out such respective lists ; and such per-
sons shall he entitled to vote in such election, although they
may not be registered according to the provisions of this
Act, any thing herein contained notwithstanding ; and
the polling at such election for any county or part, riding
or division of a county, may be continued for fifteen days
and the polling at such election for any city or borough
may be continued tor eight days, any thing herein con-
tained notwithstanding."
On the question being put, leave was given to bring it
up, and it was read a first rime.

The entrance of Sir C. Wetherell during the reading of
the clause created much laughter.

On the question th it this clause be read a second time,
Sir ROBERT PELL observed, that the clause eon-
eisted of two enactments of an extraordinary nature,
which were meant to meet some objections pointed out in
the progress of the measure, and which the Noble Lord
had refused to obviate by inserting these amendments in
the body of the Bill. He had refused to accede to the
advice then given him, and hod now to add them to the
Bill. The first of these en ictinente was to meet the pos-
sible case of the House of Lords refusing to concur with
the House of Commons in the address to the Crown be•
fore a dissolution of Parliament should take place, in
which case the old r ;gilt of voting was to continue. It
certainly was possible that the two Houses might not
agree to address the Crown, and therefore some provision
of this kind was necessary. It enacted, " That if a disso-
il,uatsisoitotgo t
of
f th eb rs
Aesares
t,t
aod Parliamenti,efo r
e shall
hot
htake
Houses
polcfa
Parliament
after
arliahe
ro o t
shall have voted addressee to his Majesty, praying his
Majesty to issue his Royal proclamation as hereinbefere
mentioned ; in such case such poisons only as would have
been entitled to vote in the election of Itlembers to serve in
a new Parliament in case that Act had not been passed,
shall he entitled to vote in such election, and the proceed
ings in all such elections shall he regulated and concluded
in the same manner as if this Act had not been passed."
It must be admitted, that it was possible that the Lords and
Commons should not agree to address his Majesty, and there-
fore s eme clause of this kind was necessary ; but he must
say that the Noble Lord hail taken a very clumsy way of
obtrining his object. The second point of the provision
made by the Noble Lord was to meet the circumstance of
an election taking place after the House shall have agreed
to address his Majesty, and before the last day of April.
At that time the old right of voting would not exist, and
the new one would not be established. 'that was an ex-
traordin ,ry state, and any person might vote whether he
was r gietered or no..—(Hear, hear.) One right of
voting was by occup incy ; and if the votes were not re-
gistered how could it be known that the claimants actually
h ut such a right? The stipposition was, that no register-
ing of the new votes had taken place, which would create
difficulty, and there mould be no inquiry whatever as to
the validity of the claims. Every man who supposed he
inhabited a house of 101. rent, or which would be 2,,1-
'waved to the poor rates. would claim a right to vote.—
( Hear, hear.) He would tender his vote, an I there would
be no means of controuling or refusing him, and no means
of checking his assertion that he lived in a house rated at
10/. All inquiry, then, would be set aside, and every
person who brought forward a claim must he allowed to
vote. He considered the first part of the clause then, as
very clumsy, and the latter part of it as very objectionable.
Lord ALT/1011P readily admitted that it was the ease,
that till both Howe s had agreed so address the Crown the
provisions of the Bill could not be carried into oseeution.
He hardly supposed it possible that the two Hints s should
not agree to address the Crown to ador t the report of the
Commissioners ; but if they did not, that report would
not be binding, and the Act would not have the authority
of a law. That difficulty was met, as far as it could be,
by the clause. The House of Lords might appose the pas-
sing of the Bill, but he hardly conuived, that after passing
it, they should set their laza against carrying it into execu-
tion. The dance could not remove that difficulty, art
it provided, in case it should occur, for the eonse-
quence of a dissolution of Parliament. The other part
of the clause relater! to the dissolution of Parliament
after the measure was othartviee perfect, not before tt,e
votes were registered., The votes would theta be riven
under the sea law. But the Right ircet. Baronet
said there could be no check on arty votes. He begged
leave to say, that there would tae the sama checks as at
present. The votes then given would be suoject tii the
same investigaeion and the decision of the returning offesee
as at prewar. According to his view of the matte:, there
would certainly be a different right of voting, tai: the same
means of determining the validity of every vote as now.
The clause had been introduced to meet objections which
had been strongly urged to the Bill, as preventing the.exer-
cise of the prcogatives of the Crown ;, land this clause
obviated those obj ctions. He sane no piker mode of effect-
ing the object in view. If the two Houses did not agree
in addressing the Croseu, sad a dissolution took place, the;,
the old right of voting would continue; if a dissolution
took plaice after they had agreed to the adekteas, then the
eiectious would take place under the hill ; and if the
registry were not complete, the inspection of the votes
would take place as Et: preeent, and the returning officers
would be bound to see that no returns wewe improperly
made.
Sir CHARLES WETHEFtELL said that there were
two, points omitted in the 11411. Tile first point was, who
were to be the constituents of the House of Commons, if a
dissolution of Parliament should take place before the new
constituency which was t;\ be framed by this Bill should
have come into exietenee. The next point teas, who %sere
to be tire constituents of the House of Commons in case of
a dissolution of Parliament taking place after the Bill had
been passed, and before April next. These were two very
large and important questions, all consideration of which
had been wholly left out of the Bill, and which had escaped,

. . ,
the Xtteution of all the Metadserti of the Cabinet till tlasr
had been reminded of them by the Oppoeitiou. They
provided twit, er for the dissolution of Parliament in ease
of the King's death, nor for the dissolution of Porno:neat
in case of the exercise of the King's prerogative. In
the progress of the discussion these points had leTti
brought under cassideration, and the chose wis in-
tended to meet these events. The first part o: the clause
provided that the old constituency should elect the House
Of Commons, which he thought was right. The second
part of the clause lie did not approve of. The clause did
not, in fact, meet the difficulties of the case. The new
aynodtersthewreotwilt,l)uhladvelienonorimghetantos
oYfoteregtilil they
„eringw,earendrengte
no legal
votes. The constituency of the country might then be
anybody; it would vibrate be•ween the old and the new,
and place the country in a state of great danger. There
would be no means of cutting off those who claimed to
vote without any right, or of adding those who had the
right, and were not inserted in the liars. He thought, in
case of a dissolution taking place after the two Houses
had addressed the Crown, and before April, that the old
constituency ought to elect the new Haase of Commons.
It was a mockery, a delusion, and a cheat on the under-
standings of those who had attended to the progr..ss of the
Bill, to say that the lists could be scrutinized or t: e voters
checked, under the new Bill, before they were registered.
There would be a crisis of great danger, should the demise
if the Crown take piece between the passing of the Bill
and the period when the lists of the new constituency were
complete.
Lord JOHN RITSAELL said, that the objection of the
Hon. and Learned Gsntleman derived from the demise of
the Crown, had been answered before. If such a case
should occur, Parliament would, according to law, have to
-it six months after that event, and might pass an Act ,4)
provide for the difficulty. The other case, of a dissolution
before the lists were adopted and the votes registered, was
hardly likely to occur. By the time the Bill was passed,
it would only want seven months to the end of April. The
next objection was, that the House of Lords might refuse
to join the Haus, of COMMOfIII in addressing his Majesty.
That was a possible difficulty, hut it was tardy possible,
ind extremely improbable ; and no Legislature could es, r
succeed, if they were to attempt to provide ter every poss.
Bible oar. Another difficulty raised by the Ilun. anti
Learned Gentleman was, that this clause would give
the right of voting—in es.e of a dissolution before
the Ministry was completed—to all who were placed
in the lists, whether they had a right to be there or
not. But, in fact, there would then be no lists of
voters. The lists would not be made out, ar.4 would be
no authority to the returning officers__( ,A voice inquired,
How, then, were the people to vote He would an-
swer that by inquiring how the forty-shilling freeholders
now voted ? The Imy said, that eves y man poss. ssed of
.1 freehold of forty shilling. should have the right of vot-
ing, and the returning officer was the judge whether he
had such a right or not. In the same manner the occu-
pant of a ten pound house would claim the right of voting,
and the returning officer, with the assessor, must judge
whether he had such a right or aor. To enable him to
do that, the clause provided for continuing the pull open
for a longer period than was allowed by the Bill. The
returning officer would decide the validity of the vote in-
stead of the parish officers. If an election did take place
before the registry was completed, he saw no more d;ffi-
culty in determining the present right of voting wider the
Act than in determining the present right of voting, for
the new rights of voting would be more complicated than
the old. He saw no reason why those rights should not
tie exercised under the same checks as the present rights.
He had introduced this clause to provide for a coustittitiotal
objection, but he thought, in a practical point of view,
it was of no importance.

Mr. GOULIiURN thought the Noble Lord had given
no answer to the objections stated to the clause. It was
not so impossible as the Noble Lord seemed to Fuppose,
that the event alluded to, Of a dissolution, might take
place before the end of seven months. He, therefore, did
not consider that this was a mere constitutional and net a
practical difficulty; it was certainly a constitutional diffi-
culty and a practical difficulty also. The Noble Lord
should recollect that the returning officers had, in the as-
sessments to the land tax, a guide to check the claims of
the freeholders. He was of opinion, too, that the ne,t•
rights of voting were much more complicated than the old,
and would give more trouble.
Mr C. W. WYNN approved of the clause, as likely to
answer the object proposed. The objections male to the
Bill which this clause was to obviate were not theoretical,
hut practical and constitutional objections, made to defend
the prerogatives of the Crown. If the clause had not
been introduced, the Hause of Common, might, in case
the Bill passed into a law, continue its ‘ittings for seven
years, and the Crown would have no legal power to put
an end to it. He was quite satisfied with the former part
of the clause, but not with the latter, and believed it
would have been better to have stopped at the former, and
allowed the Parliament, should it be dissolved before the
last day of April, to be elected in the same manlier as it
would be if the Act did not pass. By the second part of
the clause, the polls were to be kept open for fifteen days;
but by the Bill, all the difficulties which might in-
tervene must be left untouched, for nothing could be de-
cided either by the Sheriff or his deputy.
The clause was then read a second time.
On the motion that it be read a third time,
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL stated that in .he sup-
posed case of a dissolution taki.ag place after the two
Houses hail agreed to the addtk.ss, and before the registry
was completed, there would be many difficult questions to
be decided hi• the returning officers. The Hill created new
boroughs, and separated them from• counties, and the re-
turning officer would have to decide whether a man claim-
ing vote had a right, in Genie cases, to vote for a borough
or a county.

The claim was then read a third time, nod added to the
Bill by VI ,y of rider.

The SPEAKER asked if there were any other claims
to be added ?—" No." Were there any ameudmeuts in
the body of the Bill?

Mr. LEE LEE proposed sn amendment in the 22d
clause, reserving the rights of all the freeholders now under
age, who would on cooling of age have a right to vote, if
thi, Bill did not become a law. Such a reservatioo, he
said, was made of the apprentices arid sons of freemen,
and he saw no reason why the same reservation 'horrid not
be made of the rights of freeholders. He could not ri.orSt,
as the amendment he proposed was only lair and equitible,
that it would meet the approbation of the House. The
Pun. Member moved an amendment to this effect.
The amendment tray brought up and read.
Lord ALTHORP said, this clause was to place free-
holders on the same footing as freemen. It was to reserve
o the gong of freeholders all their present rights. He saw
no objection to the amendment.

The amendment was agreed to, and inserted in tl,e Bill,
On the motion o► Mr. Baiscoe, it was agreed that in
cl 'time 44 the words " Saturday and Sunday" should be
inserted, instead of " Saturday," Lord JOHN Russets.
st,aing that he had no objection.
On the motion of Mr. Arroamay-Gzartnar, a proviso
was added, to Rive the power of recovering costs under
the R• fora; Bill in the same manner as according to the.
proviai as of the Act of 9th George IV.
Mr. KNIGHT and Mr. Cucta': thought that something
ought to he inserted respecting the taxation of costa as well
as the recovery.
Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL thonzlit this was pro-
Tidal, for' according to the wording of the Bill.
Toe motion was then agreed to.
On the motion of Lord J. Russru., the toww.hip of
Preston Fordrn was added by name to the town of
haven,

The amendments of the clauses being dispored of. Lord
Jon to RUSSELL moved " that this Bill do p.:ss."—(Clieers
front the Treasury Benches.)
Sir J. SCARLETT said he now felt it nee •scary to say
a few words—not because he thoug►,t he should be able to
prevail on any Member to vote ape no the Bill wha had
already supportea it, but to record his. bjections to the
principle of the tnea.ure. Not having taken auy part in
tie discurriou of the Bill hitherto, he felt it a (MT to the
country and to his own feelings to take the present oppor-
tuniiy of stating hi. on it. tie should have preferred to
save done so on the question of the third reading ; but as,
considering the majorities by which 'the Bill hail hitherto
been supported, he had no hope that any thing that he
could ttrga would aff•ct the relleril question, Ittli as his oh-
jcot is riling was to trout,' his obj••ctioua, it vt,tg the same
in effect whether ho made his objections o❑ the third read-
ing, or on the question that the Bill do pass. Ile owne.l
he had expected that either of the Noble Lords (A!thorp
oT .1. Russell), or some of the lion. Members around
them, would have taken the opportunity of stating, on
the question of the third reading, something as to how
the tueasure was likely to operate in the country—would
have told them how future Governments could be conducted
on the principles of this Bill. He was the rxrret
to hear some such statement, as since Marehtehoof
tietle
ib3iidi
heard no general statement from any
as to how it would operate. He had,
rtailtlll,:atr-freir,get
of( theth i s
vt hole
thele rnr:!tihrubrraede
na.abu;:tit:Fhtdhehjeaduritdfsuctuldhusiersui:guineNG:l:4-:
verninent of the muff!
Bill•
He regretted this the
by any supporter. of .
the
to a plan of moderate
more, as bong a friende
to
be convirced that this was V.
he should gl,d if
.1
tion and not what he contfitinst:!:
,lurus of that description,

i reeolut:on.iu the Constitution of. the country. He
bad heard nothing on the general question which was
sufficient to induce him to alter the opinion he had
ffirdred with respect to the effect of the change. A ques-
tion of this magnitude, making as. it did such important
changes in the Constitution of England, ought, in his
opinion, to have been divided into several Bills; for such
were the extent and importance of the interests involved,
that a man might exhaust half a day in adverting to them,
without doing justice to any, or without taking that com-
prehensive view of the whole which its greatness demanded
It was with deep regret, therefore, that instead of having
this plan of Reform divided into parts, as the proposed
changes might affect the different branches of the Consti-
totion, he should find the whole jumbled together into
one mass, in such a manner as no man could understand.
In offering a few remarks, therefore, on the whole ques-
tion, as far as he could comprehend it, he had 'to throw
hinnielf on the indulgence of the House.---(Hear, hear.)
In the outset, then, he must sty that he was one of those
who had a great predilection in favour of that machinery
of the Constitution, under the working of which this
country had the greatest share of liberty and happiness
that had ever fallen to the lot of any nation.—(Hear, hear.)
If they looked to the history of other nations, and examined
whether any of them had possessed the same prosperity,
the same happiness, the same share of individual liberty,
as we had enjoyed under all the institutions of this
country blended together, it would be found that, though
there might he objections to parts of the machinery of our
Canstitutioo, yet that the effect of the operation of the
whole was to give this country a degree of civil and re-
ligious liberty,—of naval and military splendour,—a 'de-
gree of individual freedom, such as no other nation had ever
possessed. If he thought that a republican form of Govern.
meant could give us a greater share of general and indivi-
dual liberty, of internal prosperity and external power, he
should, notwithstanding his oath of allegiance, be disposed,
if the question were discussed as a res integro, to give his
support to the trial of the experiment ; but his firm con-
viction was, that neither a republic or any other form of
Government could give us any thing like the liberty and
happiness we now enjoyed. He thought that he might
fairly assume this, as he did not expect to hear any Hun.
Member advocate a republican form of Government. He
thought it was not too much to assert that a republic would
not afford the same share of liberty which we now enjoyed,
that no republic bad ever given the same share of indivi
dual liberty,—that under no other form of Government
was so much individual security, so little fear by any man
of his neighbour, as were to be found under the Consti-
tution of this country as we bad enjoyed it for years. 11,
knew it was considered patriotic by many to find fault
with the institutions under which they lived. He knew
there were many who would change the general system el
the police of the country, placed as it was in the hands of
the magistracy, who discharged its duties gratui
tousle, and with so much advantage to the public
He knew there were those who greatly differe,'
from hint as to the advantage to be derived fron
that system, and who thought it ought to be put
down. When lie stated that amongst the advantage,
hich the people of this country possessed was that of, it
a great measure, appointing their own Judges, as only e
few were appointed by the Crown, and when he mentioned
the advantages of Trial by Jury in civil cases, he linen
there were some who sought to make themselves popula'
by attacking some of those institutions, and by endeavour
ing to get rid of some of them altogether. But were these
not advantages which no other country possessed to the
same extent? If he looked to the rights and privilege-
of small communities, the power of corporations and mu
niripalitire, he should find that the people had in thei•
own hands that power which in other countries wa•
vented in the executive Government. Besides those cor
potations, we had, in divisions of counties, the local air.
ministration of Grand Juries. All this showed that the
chief administration of affairs in the country was in th,
hands of the people, and were not all these advantage.
worth preserving ? It might be said, perhaps, that wt
aletuld still continue to enjoy all these advantages whet
this Bill passed.—( Hear.) But were they sure of that 2
Were they sure that the Crown would continue in th
enjoyment of the same power and prerogatives which i
now possessed ;—that the Lords would remain in pus
session of that power which now belonged to them as a die
tinet branch of the Legislature ;.--that the House of Corn-
rnonst itself would preserve the same temper and the gene
moderation by which it was hitherto distinguished
Those who were sure of these things might give a veto
conscientious vote in favour of this Bill, and too Rapp)
should he feel to be able to support it on the same grounds;
but after all he had heard and seen—after the best considera-
tion thatehe was able to give on the subject, his opinion was.
that the experiment was not only a hazardous one, but that i.
It passed, it wouin endanger oie ~-cultiy or 00,
valuable institutions. If he had no other objection to it
:should think himself perfectly justifiable in opposing
an experiment on PO large a scale. It might he said te
him that the same objection might be urged to any plan
of Reform. This he denied. The objection could he
made only to that plan of Reform in which they could no,
retrace their steps if they found they had gone too far ;
and this plan of Reform was, in his opinion, of that de
scription. For if it passed. even those who were its most
strenuous supporters would not lots able to go back. I,
terou4l, he had no doubt, carry them such further that,
they had intended. He knew it was said Chat the great
object of this new Constitution was to make the repre-
sentatien of the House of Commons more perfect. He
would maintain that at no period of the history of the
country was the House of Commons a more pure and
perfect representation of the people than at present. 1
was a part of the constitutico of King, Lords and Com-
mons ; but the House of Common:, never was, and never
was intended to be, a perfect and independent representa-
tion of the people; but lie was not acquainted with any
period of our history when it was more perfectly what
it was intended to be than it was at present, or when
it showed so much the influence of the people than it
now did. The supporters of this Bill would give to
the people more influence in the House ; bat if tin
ol.j,et was to links the House of Commons independent
of ti e Crown and the House of Lords, it was tire first
step to a revolution and a republic.—(" Hear, bear," front
the Opposition.) A House of Commons, representing
the feelings and opinions of the great mass of the c:,--,ininu-
nity, must soon acquire that power which would sweep
away the influeuce of the two other branches of the Legis-
lature. Since the revolution of 1688, the house of
Commons had been encroaching upon the infinite:: of the
Crown. It had in fact nearly absorbed the whole power
of the executive, yet it had done without danger, be
cause it was not a perfect representatioi, of the people, but
contained within itself a portion of the weight of the
Crown and of the Arivocracy, which, blended with the
influence of popular opiniou, rendered the power it pos-
sessed not only not injurious, but greatli advantageous to
the State. Experience hail shewu that the d:eect influence
of the large mass of the community acting upon the
popular branch of the Legislature must soon absorb all the
power of the other branches. They were told, how-
ever, that they must not look to history but to reason—
to the opinions of learned men on this subject, Now,
going to reason only, lie thought it was clearly demon-
strable that if you were to make a Legislature anw,
and render the popular branch of it a mere echo of the
voice of the majority in the country, you take the first and
most certain step to a Republic, or to a Government
which instead of one King would consist of as many,
tyrants as there were Members in the wsjority of the-
House. It was natural that popular power should tend ti,
increase itself. If in the increase of the House of Com
mons there had been no contest with the other branches
of the Legislature, it was because the popular voice .was
not wholly dominant in that House. Had not experience
shown that the voice of the majority of the comortinity
was opposed to the decisions of the Legislature? If that
voice were to predominate it, the Commons, it was clear
it tvould in the end neutralize the power of the other
branches. He did not object to the fair influence of po-
pular opinion, but be did object to an influence of the
people in that House, which would sweep away all the
other powers of the Constitution before it. He could never
submit to see the House of Commons converted into a
House of delegates, formed upon principles which were
certain to end in the destruction of the monarchy and
aristocracy. The object of the Bill was, beyond all ques-
tion, to put an end to the Endnarchy and to the aristo-
cracy, and to send inti:viduals into Parliament as the re-
presentatives of districts, who, by giving went to the ebul-
litiona of the public voice, :Night drown and oweepower
any xecenta which might be raieed in defence of otlisso
branchesi of the Constitution. He would not detain the
iim by any dissertations upon its Constitution, be would
merely refer to the opinions 'which had been given on that
suLject by the theorizers, or as some might call them, tha
theorists—(A Isugb),„ the other side of the water.
This was the first time on which any Goverr,uent which
had swayed the destinies of a prosperous and .contented
people had ever thrown down before the people the rightl
of discussing all the principles by which they were goo'
verned.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) lle co.uld con-
ceive a case, as in France, in
which"'andeignineonwrhatthhaidt
overcome the will of an entirepeop le
new Government.
people had been calledupon to form
But even in France it was not zlioWed that the, delegates
of the people, who, if they fur there
were realiy what fire called
themselves, would never stick to soy conattt.ution
n sition)--shoul
growls taisther—(Chsers from the —ppo ,

originate any measure of !telr own on en important a sub-
ject.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord hart analyzed the con-
stitution of that House, in order to show that it was not
formed upon principles conducive to the interests and
prosperity of the country ; and by his analysis bad proved
that the majority of the Members for counties and also for
great towns had generally voted against the Ministry. But
upon that analysis of the Noble Lord allow him to make
one observation, and that was, that the Noble Lord had
:nude a most monstrous assumption when he took it for
granted that the majority was always in the wrong.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) It did not follow that gen-
tlemen who voted in favour of the Ministry, always
thought the measures which the Ministry proposed were
right. He knew that many gentlemen, even upon this
Bill, bad been influenced to vote for it, by a desire to sup-
port a Government which they deemed better than any
ether which could he formed to replace it. That Was de-
cidedly the case when the management of the Walcheren
expedition cause under the consideration of Parliament.
In order to show the inconsistency and absurdity of
the Bill, he asked Hon. Gentlemen to consider what
the consequences would be supposing a question were
to be misconceived and misconstrued by the people.
The Members in large and populous towns, and also
the Members for counties, would determine to sup-
port the views of their constituents, even against their
awn opinions, in order to retain their own Beats and the
favour of their constituents. That the popular represen-
tation was not safe to rely on, was evident from various
circumstances. He would selecit only one. What would
the House say if either the corn laws or the currency
question had been tried by that test? If it had been ne-
cessary to decide either of those questions by the county.
Members alone, would it have been possible to have ef-
fected any of the alterations which had been made in re-
spect of them both. He contended that the House of
Commons which this Bill would create would render it
impossible for any administration to carry on the affairs
of the country tranquilly and successfully. It had been
said that this Bill hail been met with the strangest and
inost unaccountable delays on the part of the Opposition.
For his own part, he would fearlessly assert that lie had
never read of any Constitution that had been formed so
aeon as this new Constitution for Great Britain. It was
hroifelit down by the Minister,—it was carried by accla-
mation both in amt out of the House,—and all this was
lode in the space of six weeks. It had been suggested by
m authority which lie was sure the Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite would revere,—he meant Mr. Fox,—that if the wisest
inert whom the world ever saw, were to sit down together
to form a Constitution, it would be one hundred to one
hat the working of that Constitution would be found in-
convenient ; " for Constitutions," said Mr. Fox, " do not
;row out of the ordinary process of gestation, but out of
circumstances and degrees." He was only surprised at
seeing the rapidity with which this novel and extraordi-
eery Bill had progressed through the House. He was con-
vinced that it would be found quite impracticable to carry
'his Bill into practical execution. He would not go
'trough its details on the present occasion, for they had
iieen already sufficiently discussed in the Committee, and
it was impossible to reconcile them together, so incon-
astent were they with each other. With the experience
if past Acts of Parliament before him, he was surprised
how any alien could introduce into this Bill such compli-
,ated machinery as it contained, and yet suppose that it
iould work well as lacy, lie then reiterated the sago-
nents urged by Colonel Wood on a former evening, as to
he inconvenience and clumsiness of the arrangements, by
vhich the overseers of the poor were ordered to make
ea the list of voters in the different parishes. Now
who were the overseers of the poor?- Now though the
statute of Geo. 11. required that they should be substan-
i 1 farmers, it did not follow that substantial farmers
vould make good political agents. He was sorry to say
hat in towns where the elective suffrage depended upon
‘cot and lot, these officers were already too much of poli-
ical agents. But hereafter the same would be the case
in every town and parish throughout England. This
use made officers, who were appointed alio intuitu,
fficers of a very different description from that for
vhich they were intended. How was the overseer of
he poor to know who was a freeholder, who was a
-opyholder, who was a leaseholder, who was the holder
if a 501. house within his district ? When the list
was formed, the officer was bound to place it in various
-onspictione places. He considered that the farmers, who
mere compelled to take upon themselves the office of over-
seers of the poor, were very harshly treated when they
sere called upon to make out these lists, which it was
clearly impossible for them to make out without the assist-
ance of an attorney. In every parish, therefore, through-
eta all England, an attorney must be employed—of course
it the parish expense—to find out who were entitled to
copyholders, leaseholders, and 501.
' .museholders, and also to stick upon the church-door the
names of such voters, when duly registered. What was
the next step? If any man objected to the list made out
ey the overseer, he must give notice of his objection to
the overseer of the parish. Then the overseer Was bound
-o produce two other lists—one containing the names of
tiose individuals whose names were found registered in the
overseer's list, and the other containing the names of those
ndividuals whose names were not so registered. When
the Act of George 11. imposed on the overseers certain du-
ties as to the collection and management of the poor rates,
it gave them also a right to compensation. But this Act
gave them no compensation for the endless trouble to
which they were exposed. The mere management of the
poor laws excited against all overseers great unpopularity;
But in addition to submitting to this unpopularity, they
were now called upon to suffer all the trouble of forming
these lists, which, as they were mostly ignorant persons,
they could not form without the assistance of an attorney.
When these lists were formed, they were to be carried to the
clerks of the peace who were to form an alphabetical
lilt of all the voters for the county from them, and yet
!or this trouble the clerk of the peace was to receive no
remuneration at all. This, too, was to be done once every
year. Moreover, if any man asked the clerk of the peace
for a copy of this list, there was no means provided by
this Bill by whirls he could get it. Last of all, this Bill
got into the hands of the sheriffs, and then the sheriff be-
eatne a eery ill-used personage. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then proceeded to describe the diffieWties with
\Oda the sheriff wouiil have to contend in erecting
fifteen booths, and appointing fifteen deputy sheriffs
withiu one day after he learned that an election was to he
contested in his county. Besides, in a county as exten-
sive as Yorksh!re, fifteen booths would not be sufficient
for the voters, supposieg that the voters were not to go
.pore than fifteen miles to any of the booths appointed for
polling. He illustrated this by reference to the localities
,shout Settle, Pkiptun, Gargrave, and Harrowgate. Sup-
pose, too, that after a cooteet had been threatened on the
day of nomination, and the sheriff had made all the faeces-
sate; preparations for meeting it, no contest took place,
who wokald then have to bear the expense which the
sheriff had iticereed in order to discharge faithfully the
functions of his office? The lion. and Learned Gentle-
man then proceeded to find fault, with the clause of the
Bill which appointed a barrister to decide upon such votes
as were to be eeeietered and such votes as were not, and to
complaiu that under the Et iplc penalties to which a bar-
rister was exposed by this Bill, it would not he worth the
while of any gentleman of independence and character to
act at all. For what were the penalties to which he was.
exposed ? First of all, if he was guilty of any unin-
tentionel miticonduct, it was in the power of a committee
of the ifouse of Commons to assign costs against
hilts; then it was in the power of the party
who complained against Lim to bring an action fur da-
mages before a jury; and last ui any qui-tam attorney
might truce an action against him for penalties not ex-
ceeding iiutll, /..3eing thus subjected to three fines, what
(inlet he do, if attecieed ? He must of course defend him.
• self, and defend himself by Coonsel, which led in its
tars: fo conditioted expense. What wagtS was the bar-
rister to seeeeve for rendering himself liettle to all these
penalties? A pee paltry five guineas a day. All the
hire that a barrister reseiesed was an honorarium quiddam,
and when be received that i.e was obliged to act. He
therefore .contended that by this Bill a ;;twister, once ap
pointed by the ,fudge of Assize to serve in these new
Coerts, could not refuee to act. This was a great hard-
ship to the profession to whieh lie had the lion iur to be-
long, and a hardship which he thought the Government
(-eight to remedy. ge then proceeded to contend that this
Bill way this best receipt teat he had ever read of for
eping up the anieen.sities geeereted by contested elections,
inasmuch as the general ceisisrra4ofie Whigh it sought to
establish would lead to annual bickeringe between the par-
ties.); of the different candidatis. lie thought that a
better mode of electing representatives for large towns
might have beers rtevised than that contained in this Bill.
That mode would have ;-eep to make them corporation
toweee, and to give them the adv.:Leary of a local magis-
tracy. 7erc..1.: might then make every liousel;ele!er of 101. a
year a freeman, end wive him a right to vote in the ewes
aciotoniof Members for euclaeoweoe Now as to the qualifi-
a n ciaate. lie had looked into dice manner in which
that clause would work in several of our Jarga towns
tnf, :d;
cits..ios:pt,;:tnehi,redeennrutmitobfienirtstohfoeppceir::toissonfn.
i‘hiea.nesc:l7.zidterch.all upon the
majorin g in their fume el value from 101.octcoul2P 01/nre..:ol:•:fiobo:uotl,lcaseldlcusalut'tegepvirtivy;e:::vnlyijeie
ity of 1-3 d over the number of
more valuable houses. Thus the ;eel riches
wolq.lpot only nOt be represented, but. renew

opposed by the majority of the working classes who inbabited
it. That would be the case in all the great manufacturing !
towns, where very few houses could be found which did
not let for 10/. a year. But in several of the small country
t )wnir this would be a high qualification ; for instance, at
Richmond, in Yorkshire, you might get for 10/. a year
a house in which a gentleman 0f.1,400/. or 1,5001. a year
would not be ashamed to live.—(Cries of " Hear," and
" No.") From a constituency so framed attacks would
be made first upon the church property, and afterwards
upon property of every description. To a Bill which
called such a constituency into existence, he could not give
his support. It was pregnant with such danger to all the
institutions of the country, that as an honest man he felt
.himself bound to meet it with his most decided opposi-
tion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Lord MORPETH said there were two or three retnarka
which he must submit to the House on this Bill, though
not with the view of entering into those minute and un-
important details regarding it, upon which his Hon. and
Learned Friend had descanted at so much length, in spite
of his prini,e to be brief, made at the very outset and
commencement of his speech.—( Hear.) He felt deep re-
gret that his Hon. and Learned Friend had riot given more
attention to these details when the Bill was in Committee,
and when his observations might have been useful.—
(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) A new course of
hostility had lately been pursued by the opponents of the
Bill—not, indeed, by his Hon. and Learned Friend oppo-
site, for he was too able a tactician, but by those less able
and less gifted individuals, both in and out of the House,
with which his Hon. and Learned Friend had of late so
unfortunately allied himself --(Cheers. ) Finding that
there was no chance that this Bill would be baffled in that
House—discovering that it could neither be strangled in
the cradle nor changed at nurse—they bad hit upon the
miserable device of asserting that there was a reaction in
the feeling of the country. From the situation which he
held as one of the representatives of Yorkshire, he was
necessarily brought into contact with large masses of people
and a veal diversity of interests; and he had only to
state, that in the progress of this measure, any thing
which he had done had been calculated to discou-
rage rather than to stir up any dissatisfaction that
might have been sugeestel by mentioning the motives of
the tipponents of the Bill. He would further state that
the people of England, so far as he knew any thing of their
feelings, had undergone no such re-action as had been pre-
dicated of them.—(Cheers.) Tired they had been, worn
out they might perhaps he, by that eternity of repetition
and that endlessness of tautology, which had been poured
forth with a vehemence, which was out of all proportion
to the insignificance of the subjects to which it was ad-
dressed.—(Cheers.) Of fatigue the people might have
suffered much,—of disgust they might have suffered more,
—hut of reaction they had suffered nothing.—(Hear.)
Let not, therefore, any person. however considerable either
in rank or station, imagine that the people of England had
zither changed or foregone their settled purpose of a solid
and effectual Reform. He did not complain of the course
pursued by their opponents. They had said that the
country was indifferent to this measure, and that Ministers
bad lost their labour in endeavouring to thrust it down the
people's throats. Then they said, that the, people had
been deceived and deluded by expectations of I.enefits
which it would never accomplish. Now, in this language
there was no slight inconsistency ; for if the people were
. ill deluded, it was not s little marvellous that they had
become, as was stated, indifferent to the measure. , It had
been the fashion in this discussion to speak with
marked disrespect of the manufacturing classes of the
country, and his lion. and Learned Friend had, by some ac-
cident or other, fallen into that fashionable error. His
Hon. and Learned Friend began with stating that the ma-
nufacturing classes would commence by attacking church
property, arid would end by attacking every kind of pro-
perty. Now any attempt at such wholesale public robbery
would affect the interests of the commercial classes more
than those of any other portion of the community. His
Hon. and Learned Friend had painted in glowing colours
the danger of that House becoming the organ of measures
purely popular; hut his Hon. Friend had not adverted to
the propriety of allowing any interest to have its due in-
fluence in the State. This Bill would give representatives
to the towers of Belvoir and the demesnes of Lowther, in
conjunction with the looms of Manchester and the forges
of Sheffield. He hoped the qualification was high enough
to secure due consideration for property and order, anti
that it was not too high to he attained by the humblest of
an industrious population. The B:11 would therefore give
to industry and integrity at once an excitement and a
reward. lie would not, however, go into the details of
the measure which had been so long before the House. He
would only express a hope, that the expectations which it
had excited would not be disappointed by any fraud, or
soured by any unnecessary opposition. He was aware that
many persona were blind to the spectacle of a united nation,
and deaf to the harmony of a unanimous people. Most
earnest was his hope, that a sympathy for the people would
be found in that aristocracy which had hitherto declared
itself in favour of the people in all the struggles for freedom
which had taken place front the time of Magna Charta down
to the Bill of Rights, and from the time of the Bill of Rights
down to the time of Catholic Emancipation.—(Cheers.)
With respect to the future fortunes of the country, whilst
he could not dismiss from his mind the fact that national
deserts were inseparable from national fortunes, he saw no
grounds for apprehension from the adoption of a measure
which removed nothing from the materials of public honesty,
nothing from the elevation of public virtue. What this
Bill endeavoured to remove was at variance with both public
virtue and public honesty. It waged war with venality,
corruption, and unjust influence, and he hoped that the
voice of the people raised for the destruction of that venality,
that corruption, and that unjust influence, would be con-
firmed by the voice of the Legislature, and would not cease
to spread its accents throughout the country until it was
restored to harmony and prosperity.—(Cheers.)
Mr. PEMBERTON commenced by an impassioned eu-
logy on the present representative system, by which any
man, however mean and humble, was enabled, if oppressed,
to find a hundred tongues to repeat his wrongs in the great
assembly of the nation. He contended that all interests
were properly represeuted in the House of Commons ; and
asked, when such was the case, why the country should
despise the machinery by which so much good had been
effected, and from which so many advantages had been
derived? It would surprise him much if the new system
produced any thing like the benefits of the old system of
representation. lie argued at considerable length that this
Bill destroyed the balance which ought to exist between the
three branches of the Constitution, and denounced misery
and woe to that Government which could not distinguish
between the frantic wishes and the real interests of the
people committed to its care. He reminded Ministers how
often

" Nations had sunk by daring schemes 0p0re&,354,"
and implored them to be warned in time by the lessons
of past experience. He then proceeded to assert, that the
Aristocracy, and property, and education of the country
were decidedly hostile to this Bill; and in proof of his as-
sertion, referred to the returns for the Universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge at the last election. After condemn-
ing at great length the representative system which this
Bid would impose upon the country, he proceeded to oh_
*l've that he was not blind to the blemishes of the present
Constitution ; but he would rather look to its practical
blessings than to its theoretical defects. lie would rather
take the Constitution as it was, than scramble for a new
one in the lottery of revolution.—(Cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) They bad been told that it would be dangerous
not to pass this Bill. A great excitement had prevailed
upon this Bill, and fur aught he knew might still continue
to prevail. That excitement could not, however, be allayed
by following the course by which it had been created.
Nor could the demands of the people be satisfied by sur-
rendering every thing to them in the blind prodigality of
terror.--(Loud cheers.) The danger, if danger there
were, might be reinoved by an opposite course,
by asserting the supremacy of the law, and by
exciting individuals to the exercise oi that virtue
which at present they dared not practice. But would
those, he asked, who now talked so much about the pre-
sent excitement, guarantee the nition against the future
reaction of the people ? Would they guarantee the nation
against the designs of those men who approved of univer,al
suffrage, because it led to universal plunder ?—(Cheers
from the Opposition,) lie would confront the danger
manfully at once, in preference to rendering it more
formidable by delay.—(Hear.) Am far as that House was
concerned, the decree had gone forth, and the old Con-
stitution of England was no more. But if the peers, with
the titles, inherited the spirit of their forefathers, they
would tell the Sovereign and the nation, in the emphatic
langosge of Olen times, " We will. not that the laws 01.
England be obariged."—(Great cheers from the opposi-
tion ) If, however, tltif. Bill should unfortunately pass
both branches of the Legislature, there tv,aa one consolation,
which he should be proud to share, and that was the conaola-
tion of remembering that when a new representative
.stem I,;r,qer which the country had been so long great,
and glorious, and (fez, he had, in spite of an overwhelming
majority, in spite of taunts, and :; spite of obloquy, stood
up with other virtuous' and honourable men for the inte-
rest:, of the Crown and of the people of England, in the
last house of Pommons that was ever assembled.
Lord NEWARK said, that dring the progress of this
13111 through the Committee, he for one had tc4 earnestly
desired its success, to have interfered with any observations
ocr'pt upon the single clause in which he was particularly

interested; but now that it had reached its preaent final I
stage, he wished to say a few words upon the history of the
last eight weeks. Gentlemen need not be afraid of his
troubling them at any length, he should scarcely even
allow himself to be tempted to go into the principle of the
Bill. What was it that they were met with at the com-
mencement of these proceedings ? They were told that a
measure of this momentous character could never he fitly
debated, or fairly settled, in a Parliament of which a ma-
jority was alleged to have entered this House bound hand
and foot to the Bill, and nothing but the Bill. And now
were they not told, that these very majorities had so cut
down, and changed, and maltreated the measure, that its
best friends can scarcely recognize it again ? It is not that
lie agreed with either of these assertions, for he utterly
dissented from both ; but he asked whether the one does
not afford a complete refutation of the other? They
were told, that they ought to hear Counsel for Appleby,
for that otherwise foul wrong would be done to a set of in-
nocent boroughs, if their fate were to depend upon the
caprice of the Government, and if such a mass of vene-
rable representation was suffered to die unheard : had it
died unheard—had this supposed caprice of Government
carried all blindly before it ? or kad not nineteen alterations
been allowed to be made in the original schedules of A
and B ? They were told that in the conduct of the dis-
franchisement part of the Bill, his Majesty's Government
had done a monstrous thing, by taking a census long gone
by, and legislating in 1831 upon the standard of 1821.
Now what said the returns? From them it appeared that
if the census of 1831 had been taken as a guide, seven
boroughs might have been saved out of ninety-seven—
seven boroughs whose total amount of assessed taxes in
1830 did not exceed one-seventh of that paid by one single
borough in schedule D. They might have saved, then,
these seven boroughs. They might have saved them,
perhaps at the expense of seven popular and wealthy
towns ; but he asked whether, if they had so saved them,
they should have gained anything on the score of con-
sistency or expediency ? and whether, by so saving
them, they should have adhered more closely than
they now had, to the preamble and spirit of the
Bill ? They were told, when they came to the question
of enfranchisement, that it was monstrous so to adjust the
representation, as to overpower the southern division of
England with the new and overwhelming weight given to
the northern. The House can hardly have forgotten, how
at the commencement of schedule B, now some weeks
ago, the evening's entertainments were ushered in by the
Right lion. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, with a
lecture on the map, in which he divided England with
considerable ceremony into two great portions, anti sounded
on the map the loud note of alarm to the southern dis-
trict, and proclaimed to the agricultural interest of Eng-
land, that, by this Bill, it would be utterly sacrificed to
the manufacturing interest. The Right Hon. Baronet's
proposition he well remembered was this—" that this
Bill gave an immense preponderance to the northern, or
manufacturing dim iet, and greatly and unduly lessened
the weight and importance of the southern district, which
comprised the chief agricultural counties of England."
Now he (Lord Newark) must confess, that the solemnity
of the Right Hon. Baronet's address, and his appeal to
the fears and sympathies of the ill-used and soon to be
overwhelmed southern district, powerfully arrested his
attention. He would not say that it gave him any qualms
for schedule B, upon which they were then on the point
of entering ; and he could not say that it excited in
his mind any of those regrets for schedule A, with
which the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet himself
overflowed ; but though it did not produce exactly
these effects, still he could not hear this monstrous and
undue preponderance asserted by such high authority
without feeling a disposition to inquire a little how the fact
really stood, and whether his Majesty's Ministers had in-
deed so unskilfully trimmed the balance as to sacrifice the
southern to the northern district of England. Now, how
stood the facts with respect to this terrible preponderance,
as proposed by the Bill ? He was not going to enter into
any details; but he would state to the House, in a few
word., how the fact did stand. The Right Hon. Baronet
had divided England, as far as his division goes, fairly
enough ; in his northern division he had 18 counties to
22 in the southern ; and upon a comparison of there two
divisions by the three several tests of extent, population,
and wealth, it appeared that the northern division was to
the southern, in extent, as 24 to 26 ; in population, as
about 54 to 6 ; and in wealth, as about 23 to 28. He
(Lord Newark) was aware, that the valuation of 1815,
from which the comparison as to wealth had been taken,
could not be called a very sure guide for 1831 ; but the
House would recollect that the present question was not
one of aggregate amount, but of proportion only,—of
proportion between these two great divisions of the country ;
and he thought it would be admitted, either that the in-
crease of wealth in these two great divisions, since
1815, had preserved the same proportion as then existed ;
or else that if either of these two divisions had increased
in wealth in a greater ratio than the other, it was the
northern or manufacturing district which had done so,
rather than the southern or agricultural ; in which case
it would have so much the better title to a preponderance
of Members. Here, then, they had the three tests—ex-
tent, population, and wealth. In extent, the northern
was to the southern as 24 to 26 ; in population, as 5k
to 6 ; and in wealth, as 23 to 28. They had only to
apply these facts to the proposed adjustment of the repre-
sentation, and would see what would become of the Right
Hon. Baroni,t's " terrible preponderance." It appeared,
then, that the Bill gave to the northern division 196 Mern-
hers—viz. 67 county, and 129 borough Members ; and
that it gave to the southern 248 Members—viz. 77 county,
and 171 borough Members. Now, with these facts before
them, he asked, what became of the monstrous prepon-
derance of the northern division ? So far from there being
any preponderance at all in favour of the north, the fact
was, that the southern division had 17 or 18 more Mem-
bers allotted to it than it would be entitled to, either in
proportion to its extent, population, or wealth ; and, to
make the thing perfect, they only wanted some gentleman
to get up on behalf of the northern district, and complain
of the undue favour shown to the southern by the allot-
ment to it of these 17 Members more than its just and
fair proportion. 'There would be this difference, then,
that if any gentleman did so, the facts of the case would
bear him out. He begged pardon of the House for
having been tempted to enter into these details, hut he
must plead this as an excuse, that any assertion coining
from the Right Hon. Baronet c inied with it such
high authority as to make him (Lord Newark)
anxious that those whose attention might not happen to
have been directed to this part of the subject, should not
be misled by that high authority. Then next came the
division of counties, the project for colonial representa-
tion, and the motion to admit tenors at will to vote.
Upon the former of these questions the cloven foot of op-
position peeped out in rather an amusing way. The di-
vision of counties—rather a conservative enactment one
should have thought—was opposed might and main by
two great legal authorities, the declared and strenuous ad-
vocates of the influence of property and the nomination
system ; and the project for direct representation for the
colonies was, on the other band, supported by a long
string, not of reformers, but of the very able and con-
sistent and anti-reforming advocates of virtual represen•
tation. Now one word upon this subject of the colo-
nies. He should he gl-td to know whether it was from
A and B that they had been hitherto represented? He
believed, upon inquiry, it would be found, certainly not in
a great measure,—and if so, why then what became of the
great, and serious, and novel difficulty which this Bill was
to create iu that respect ? He had a list of Mem-
bers connected with the colonies who Pat in the last
Parliament, which, perhaps, it was better to take
than the present, since it could not be said that they
were elected under any circumstances of excitement, which
might have had the effect of making the return of persons so
connected less probable. They had, clear of either sche
dole, and wholly independent of A or B, the Members for
Bucks, Sandwich, Rochester, CrickladeeDuiwries, Bridg-
water, Wexford borough, and perhaps they
might add
Bristol and Kirkcudbright ; whilst in A and B together,
Hythe, Old Sarum, and Mahnesbury, were the only in-
stances, as far as he was aware. He thought this eittiple
fact outweighed a good many of those denunciations against
the Bill which were founded upon the supposed forlorn and
unprovided condition of the colonies under the proposed
system. Of the great features of the Bill, there was one
which he had left unnoticed—the ten-pound franchise.
Did Hon. Gentlemen recollect the cty with which this
ten-pound franchise was received when first brought for-
ward ? He perfectly remembered they heard of nothing but
its dangerous, uniformity, the perils of a centralization of
power, and the fatal error of lodging the entire political
controul of the state in the hands of a single class. 'This
was what they said at a distance, and this did for some
time; hut when these clauses cline to be discussed what
then ? Why, the alleged uniformity became a detected fal-
lacy, and with infinite prmnpt:tude they gave it up, and
turned round npon them (the Reform party) for mat-
ing, as they said, universal suffrage in one place, and a
close corporation of ten-pounders in ano)itchleirt.heyAisiailloshokoewrn-
on he could not but admire these tactics: as a well-wisher
of Reform, he might be permitted to turn them to ac-
count. And now, in this eleventh hour, as it had been
cilled, of the struggle, all he would ask of his oppo-
nenti•was, to cpply this versatility which
in objecting to the details to their final consideration of the
measure as a whole. Let them acknowledge, though in
another form, their own dear cowervative principle as the

genius that has presided over this Bill ; let them point In
their victory recently gained (short-sighted na he thought
the proposition was, upon which that victory was founded).
but let them point to that victory, as a proof that the voice
of the landowners was not utterly powerless in that House,
and that the power of dictation will not perhaps be quite
extinct in the country,—let them cease to make common
cause with the potwallopers ; and may that victory revive
their sinking hopes of a continuance of the Monarchy !
But let Reformers recollect, that the great advanta•ae they
• have gained was, that in meeting henceforward the de-
mands of the unreasonable part of the community, they
would be able, if this Bill passed, to appeal to the reason-
able. Could they do this before, with such abus,s st firing
them in the face, and forcing as it were the well-disposed
alike and the ill disposed part of the people into an un-
natural combination against a power governing by such
means ? But now they would he able to make this appeal,
for tdey would have ground to take that was maintainable
by reason ; and he trusted they would maintain it. It
was this paramount consideration, and no vague desire of
change, no love for any set of men, but a wish to get the
sound part of society on their side against the unsound,—
this it was, he could truly say, that had made him a
Reformer.

Sir JOHN MALCOLM said, that after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord, he was bound to say something re-
specting the reason for the part he had taken. The opinion
which he had entertained of this plau of Reform had been
confirmed by what appeared during its progress. He
trembled for the effects of it. If ever there was a period
when it was dangerous to speculate on the destiny of a
country, this was the period. Under the present system of
representation, genius might attain power, and talent and
industry were sure of it. There was no man so humble
who could he stopped in the course to power which he
could reach, by means of which there was no example in
any other country in the universe. These were his senti-
ments. He acknowledged that some of the provisions of
the Bill were excellent, but as a whole, it was a measure
dangerous to the country. But discontent had been ap-
pealed to—(Hear)--and had been directed against every
abj-et which the patriotic ought to defend ; and for
whom ? For the people, who, high and low, had an
interest in maintaining them. The Noble Lord, the
Member for Yorkshire, had talked of danger and of a
re-action ; but the danger would be from carrying the
Bill, owing to the disappointment of the hopes of the
people which had been inspired by the Bill, who had ex-
pected more than could be granted. They did not un-
derstand the Bill. He (Sir J. Malcolm) did not know
who could? The most important part of it was not
operative. It was thought that large masses of men re
ceiving 3s. 6d. a week were to vote conscientiously.
The Noble Lord said that one remarkable feature of the
Bill was, that it provided for the large and leading
interests of the country. This be denied; one of
the largest and most leading interests was that of
Intik. He (Sir John M &elm) had approved of the
motion for giving representatives to the colonies, though
not of the details of the plan proposed by the Hon.
Member for Middlesex. That plan was calculated only
for a country in a state of freedom, but India would nut
be in that state till she drove us out. After all, the plan
would give votes to one million only out of eighty mil-
lions. I'he lion. and Gallant Member then went into
some details as to the materials for a constituency in India,
amidst considerable noise and intcrruption, which induced
him to say that he was not surprised that gentlemen who
took so little interest in what concerned their own country,
should take less in what regarded India. Ti.e consti-
tuency which he should propose, for India was the 2,000
male proprietors of East India stock, and the qualification
for a representative of India he proposed should be twelve
years' residence in that country. It was most improbable
that such men, than whom persons of more independence
of mind could not be produced, would be the mere pa,sive
instruments of any Government. He should propose no
more Members for India than had been proposed by the
Hon. Member behind him (Mr. Hume); and under the
operation of this Bill, and the increased power given to
the Commons, the greater intercourse with India, and the
frequent misrepresentations regarding it, it was requisite
that officers of great experience and high character from
that country should find their way into the House. lie
proposed to limit their qualifications, by requiring a seven
years' residence in England after their return from India.
Ile did not doubt the desire of his Majesty's Ministers to
preserve India ; but he doubted their power of doing so,
unless they kept open an access to that House to persons
connected with it. Whether this Bill did or did not pass
into a law, he thought that measures should be adopted to
bring more of the India interest into the House.

Mr. J. WILLIAMS said the Hon. Member for Cocker-
mouth (Sir J. Scarlett), and the Hon. Member for Rye
(Mr. Pemberton), had entered into very comprehensive
panegyrics upon the British Constitution in all its parts—
its jurisprudence, its representative system, and he knew
not what. His Hon. Friend, the Member for Cocker-
mouth, had asked where was the precedent upon which
they would lay their finger, and what part of the Consti-
tution of our ancestors was it that justified the present
measure? But he (Mr. Williams) would ask, amongst
all the panegyrics the Hon. Member hail selected, and
amongst the historical writers and foreign jurists to whom
he had appealed, where was the writer who had said
that the British Constitution had carefully provided for
the return of Members to Parliament from places where
there were no constituents, and had avoided places where
there was an abundant popul ition ? Where was it stated,
as an ingredient to the praise bestowed by Blackstone,Mon•
tesquieu, and De Lohne, upon the British Constitution, that
it carefully provided for the exclusion of representatives fur
places having an abundant population? on the contrary.
their recommendation of the system of returning the House
of Commons was, that it was the express image of the
people, and that it spoke the feelings and very voice of
the Commons of England. Had his Hon. Friend forgot.
ten what was said by Mr. Pitt, when a Minister, upon
this subjsct? " Those gentlemen," said be, " who
dwell so much upon the theory and principle of the Consti-
tution, would do well to bear in mind that the excellence
of the English Constitution is, that it has been a continued
series of changes." What was the stationary point upon
which his Hon. Friend would rely ? To what petiod
could he refer for that beautiful state of the Constitutio❑
when it required no change ? To suppose that there ever
was such a term was to satirize the wisdom of our ances-
tors, and to make blockheads of them. His Hon. and
Learned Friends might be enamoured of the present state
of the British Constitution; but what was the opinion of
the people ?---( Hear, hear.) When they assumed that
the people thought so too, it was a begging of the ques-
tion ; it was at variance with the fact, that the people of
England were satisfied with the Constitution in its pre-
sent state. If, as it had been said, this was a change
merely for the sake of change, it would be different.—
When his Hon. Friends dwelt upon the danger on one
side, they seemed to have overlooked altogether the danger
on the other—(Hear, hear.) If they were entitled to lay
all the danger on one side, nothing, certainly, would he
more triumphant than their argument.—(Hear.) His
Hon. Friend, the Mem•+er for Cockermouth, had contended
that the Bill did too much. lie differed from hint; but
had it done ever so little, the argument of the Hon. Mem-
h.•r fur Boroughbridge would exist in full force, fur the
principle of the Constitution would have been violated if
only one borough had been disfranchised.—( Hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Member concluded with insisting on the
danger of delay.
Mr. HAWKINS next addressed the House, but in a
tone so inaudible as to be very indistinctly heard in the
gallery. We :understood the Honourable Gentleman to
begin by observing that he thought that there hail not been
half so much yielding to popular clamour on this question
as on that of the Catholic claims. The power of the Press
was an -tbstract being, to which was given the name of
" the Journals ;" but it must depend for its strength upon
the numbers of its willing readers ; and, like a popular
orator, in order to lead the public an inch, it must be led
by the public an ell. If public opinion could centroul the
sentiments of the Members for Old Sarum and Gatton, it
would have double effect upon the representatives fur
Preston and Birmingham. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, at
least most of them, had admitted that some change was
necessary, and he believed that the lion. and Learned
Member for Boroughbridge was the only individual
who remained at Zero, or the freezing point of political
improvement. Much had been said regarding the cum-
par itive merits of the census of 1921 and 1831 ; no
doubt the census of 1921 contained errors and negli-
gence; but-if witnesses hail been examined at the bar, to
establish the population of 1831, their evidence would not
only have contained errors and negligence, but would have
displayed the effects of. temporary interest. lie earnestly
recommended the House to put away the evil spirit of cor-
ruption, and to supply its place by the good genius of public
opinion. The lion. Member, in a tone only at intervals
audible, then proceeded to remark upon the equal balance
of arguments on each side of the question, and observed,
that if they were to be paired off two by two, the Noble

I

f

The rack

Paymaster of tie Forces would have nothing t° rfroit
and would have to say, with a great dramatic per°
. How happy could Ibe with either
Wer e Vother dear charmer away ;
er,
But sincee hyorua ttrhdte:z.
illelmsaeyt.°"geth ci
thl
vinlicated then ten-epound franchise establish,'
ego
Bill, in opposition to what he termed the chanee°ofii.
f ,rmer anomalies in the national constituency or;
not join with those who apprehended danger o°3,
tried experiment ; and lie was confident that Owl
ineasuie could be carried into effect, not enl?r, ,014
peril, but that it would be the means of Owl,
threat,ned calamities. lie denied that the inere4ht°;)
stituency would augment the facility to bribery;
ged those who referred to the late Dublin etectioo°llll
of the affirmative, to remember that the freeholdeA,
go iseberry and raspberry bushes of Coltiblose;13;00
electors under the old system. He contended
House was at present divi,led into two bodies--thel
pendent for their seats 011 popular electors, the otherteol
the reach of popular controul. Under the old sYsoci.e,
people, in order to keep up a due balance of inffle
perhaps now and then exercised an authority t°llo,
but, under the new system, when they were not el
to so
asedvueree
sahacroeutoa.fe,they•
independence.would allowThethsetieredretPorti,
curbed by too tight a rein curvetted and endatgee(
safety of its rider. The Hon. Gentleman Precrbea'A
illustrate in what way, at present, county Alen, pdri
kept under the controul of their constituents, We noil
taught the lesson of legislation by the process 0! 'tit
and answer; and afterwards referred to the Co
Senate, recommended to Bonaparte by the Abbe. b(
the members of which were kicked up stairs, °pif
on their backs and pensions in their pockets,
a sort of legislative Castle of Indolence. He fart 'Vg
trated this point by an allusion to an elephant,
what way the Hon. Member applied the figure wt,
unable to auertain. He a:so spoke of the treatol6;er,
tain Members had received on the hustings, °h,"
had been kicked and cuffed, and had found age r,
their wounds in Downing-street infirmary. .
plained of the reluctant and insulting manner if°,o(
particular information in those particular case, ° o 0
•
boroughs had been hitherto conceded;
simile of the Hon. and Learned Member for Y,
bridge, was like a schoolboy who gave up /181.0. f be'lbt
because he could not keep the whole.—(Sir G oil
across the table, denied that this was one of ljje a
and the denial occasioned much laughter.) He "ali
meant to assert that the Hon. and Learned Menif;
really wasted any thing ; he never suspected hio".°
up the half of any cake he had once got into bt
ue
sion.—(Hear, and laughter.) He went on to argr-A
revolution without bloodshed and by Act of page'
sounded to his ears very like a Constitution,'
though some, reversing the assertion of Lord Peter'br,
assert that roast mutton was nothing more t"uadi re'
bread. He contended that the inequality of virtu'og e
nil-natation by the close borough system was increa'o
ay—that it was augmented by every street that 't:l;e,rt
ta the metropolis—by every mile added to tur°l4ol
or canals, and by every additional chimney that St
-
sable pennon ever Birmingham or Manchastet'he
was the degradation even of Mr. Canning, that
.the
to purchase, by the sweat of the peoPle',l by
port of the Legislature, in order that he 101%,e't
means, work out the salvation of the people. `.0,o1"
was the case with Castlereagh, with Pitt, and ell( 0
Statesmen. Such was the state of the House ei,4o,
mons, that the Ministers had became Che,l'
instead of its being a check upon the Alini'te,;o•lftr,
knew not whether the Bill would pass ; for the reef
putting a negative on it was in the hands of th',o!
it was said, would use that power to °pee, 'aoli
whether they opposed it or not, Reform could nieJ'
wholly prevented. Let the Ministers not be blaV
this ; rather let those be blamed who, when the S,
had been running along smoothly, and when tbe,4
have got to the safe have, had waited till thei,'
storm had come and forced them from their P°/:-.t/
wrecked at s, a. The other side admitted now tbd?
Reform was necessary, but no resolutions ever haul,
proposed, as if the rule of England was such 3.0%
I stake,. that
_a man dare not risk his po itical rePt°
fee.:

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gain it. 'those who advocated Reform were
with the indecency of threatening the Peers ; but.
indecent in one patty to appeal to their appreheurie ir,
war. not less indecent in another to appeal to t",,
rests. That was done by the gentlemen opposi,tfisi,
no.) He said yes. Had they not stated, that P,
passed, the influence of the House of Lords woule,tol
hilated, and the Aristocracy ruined? The Hun, ;to
made several more observations ; but the low toaei I 9
he spoke, and the impatience generally mend-o°oi'
House, prevented anything more than a few word
,V
sentence from reaching the gallery. On sitting
was cheered.
es/ej
Mr. A. BARING had listened, or rather Wit%lf'
protracted delivery of the Hon. Member's elabersr f.;l
cocted speech, without, he must say, being arts`
much enlightened or amused.—(Hear.) Alt°l:l4
that whatever was its merits novelty could oe-betyl
forward as the chief--(llear)—the Hon. 10°,0,,
made various attempts at what, no doubt, be V?'
himself, if nobody else, was very clever sarca9ol /01011'
and a laugh)—at the expense, as it should veto, °01)f
presentativea and dose boroughs. Now, taking .41
for the deed, and supposing that the sarc ism told
as it was no doubt intended, he would only tabor
grace with which it came from the Hon Gentle9rh
was hirn•elf the representative of a close borough
—and that too by one of those impartial anotnaliii
distinguished the Bill—a close borough, vrh,ricv
continue to return two Members.—(Hear.) ,ie
Gentleman proceeded to deliver what he terniedijtio,
ing malediction of the Bill. He entirely subscrio jor
view taken of its unconstitutional tendency br ;Yr/
and Learned Friend (Sir J. Searlett), the Selo(
Crickerinotrh, and was convinced that if the Aiet
applied itself to the framing an inconvenient,
ticable, and destructive measure, it could not
more than Ministers had with respect to the Pre4/01,
Toe ablest lawyers on both sides of the Houser 6
mitted their inability to expound its principle i
lions, and yet every parish officer in the 10110°0
forsooth make himself perfect master of both 'lt
And then the inquisitorial functions it would
every overseer to pry into the affairs of his neigdo
tier the pretext of ascertaining his qualification oifir
The objections to the registry system were yet un 4f/
by Ministers, who also had failed to exlain:, 111(
objections urged on the Opposition side ol t ‘
founded on the tendency of the Bill to destreYeslir
lance between an extended constituency and so I
tional power. Here he asked, was the Crow°
..07e
cise its prerogative if the means of sending its ocv"of
into that House be stopped up by the demolitica 6
close borouaits? It could only retain this praPeerdiri s
through those close baroughs which were retail' f
the
Bill, and which, somehow or other, by one pcl,/
strange accidents that bad the most artless " Vol
partial men, belonged to the framers of d'eorsilflo
h
( Hear, hear.) By doing away with the c:ose "oalot
fr
men of retiring habits would be totally excluded 0,14,1
in that House to make way for the noisy demagft tC
chief claim to the popular suffrage would 'lO
recklessness and extravagance of his assertiona• .tie A
he repeated it over and over, was a tiernocr>ol:o
(Loud cries of " Hear !" from the Opposition)thek
such its inevitable result would be to swallow up o
and the Aristocracy, and convert this Monarchical del
intent into a levelling Democracy.—(Hear, sea bl~
said Hon. Members, the country has been opreetiors i
weight of the present monstrous system of corrul% sberej
ans.ver was within the reach of every man ;
the records of history an instance of a country liptcl
such strides in wealth, commerce, intelligen,fe't mel
science, and art, as this country had under tha
t.) sl
repudiated system ?—(Lortd cries of " Hear, bred toil
a measure essentially democratic, it was °Way '1).?
genius of the British Constitution. A Deinucr-00°,,0r
answer very well in America, where there were/eel!)
tell:dating properties, and where there were very rol
men ; but in this country, where there were 10;.0°,1
and several very rich, the thing was impossible, d
only cud in a general scramble Icr property, and stif),
subversion of ail the institutions in Church an oilhosP,.
(Hear, hear.) For these reasons he opposed O Sli
eos,
it would lie a consolation in his declining Ye%-j
eer
that be the last act of his political life, that lie b ~log
iit „r
g
to that Bill his most strenuous and uncomPr°
position,—(Cheers.) goii•
Sir H. BUNBURY was surprised that ,_b;.isep
hers, wilco they talked of the country having
,to, 1,0,
der the present defective syszem of represeatatte tOcel)
lool:ed the alarming state of the country so tl)e
last November. At that time, chiefly owing .t-st fte ,Isf
ration of the heal of the late Government agairetol:4
a spirit of disaffection was generated, which
tended to that most important body the mitidl, pr‘spa
society, anti which could be allayed only by tece,eed„fplle,
held out by the present Administratioa of a
.ItileP't
efficient measure of Reform. In ordinary tin,tl":olllfiiir.,:
classes were the instinctive defenders of lie Vert Ili
rights of property ; but at the period to whiell‘oll,,ir
such was their discontent with the resent a/13004,/0
presentation, that they were to be found couatc 1,100
not actually participating in, the acts of trb`.og
(Hear, bear,) With this important fast 0311

311 out
Th
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tition
that
Ti
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the
141

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