The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-12 00:00:00

___„,_
Noble Lord
I them to prep..--
si. Vnuld have beenb found to have made the tranefer. The
under the c.olniderrr
ad talked of bona fide transfers-in
eid name of and he should real or . the e..
God how was he to distinguish between bona
:erupted to gO4 ..•••"-", e and other transfers ? He really knew not; and if he were
ut with respect: oe e4der th
,_ enecessity of notgetting •
his money transferred ii
l's speech he nute... to ~..stocks without
rguments of thaZia,turi ttemA ,
g, . t paying this enormous tax, he should be
. loan mtn. ty cautious of lending it ; nor did he know any
when he exPlein
01'1 330, Wl2O would not think twice before be lent his
of taxes. The
..
aft .
~ e,..
. / If, the h
in printed cotter, 4 . -on, for instance, n when there were contracts in Lon-
titiochniillaus of millions of stands of arms,
luwer classes ; hitt'
of yards of cloth, could any prudent man
ated his ineentiantrtjli tre to
ilot__.
t_ enter into such contracts, if be could
:41oble Lord took (''' re •
t __„, eh_ft hat sort of credit which his respe •IT 1 eta ii ity am
ime, though 1 w.r; it sr cter had heretofore entitled him to get, but which
arment of the Pe° si e could
. cot of th not by any possibility get if the funds
all the plain „00 I'ho the countryfuudia were not made available to him.
nk that the poar 'kite 0f"
g system promised to keep the peace
one that they 'l° t d h. the
siva is 0,. whole of Europe; as to war, for
r tvas the arg op it
, tie -0 Part he had never been aware of it, nor had
aience of keePingthst lv, to. nation the power which this country had
of a small duty, ''' with contend
. ,eng st 9 1 Illainta. . With in war but nothing short of ,
quite consistent
woo ea 'rung th ' „
e dignity and the honour of the
osition of 3 d°' ..
seUntry
, tolli id p would ever again induce England to enter the
.is reduction o' •ol
___Ao et e.,ut battle. The funding system it was that
;11 were the p1r...1,4, °'"ed
con
cintion England this superior strength.-(Hear.)._ln
ments could seinot
er. Vim, ,ith . be hoped the Noble Lord would consult
espect to the tilt__,eo, to those
%.e individuals who had no interest
rn timber he intwor t to the
be 81!IJ et, but who (and many there were
of the peoPle' tool'
. of e 0 queteN . found) could tell him all the conse-
heo this
expence lic so , t e;
measure. They were so important,
se taxes on glagee'teeer itn inconvenie
'held Petihie e ntt and so severe that it would be
took it, that i
ion, t. to escape from them. The only remedy people
1
in timbee.--c •el th • have of
then was to timbers(
'their inane keeping their credit would be, to keep
e House to the 49y he in their own pockets; and he should
toOttglad retnarententry with a rising trade, ae to cripple
ad the Statute g`
.ad ibe 'ire this 8. Re felt great reluctance to oppose any inea-
Government llu opposelS Government might propose, but he should
lively (let/rodeo', .
lei,
to
aotitinjurioPiresent measure, because he thought it would be
r he could satisfy
to a particular class of persons who ought not
'was more ilittleli jot)* selected's
treats , to: suffer, and calculated to destroy the best
runts that it 'lc. r
Y' / rll'e I tt AP sftlety
lic faith, and •°, ~,, fee r• -IrALIERL.
tbe country, to iinoi fie uf eii Y said, that in his opinion the trans-
drilin 4,4,0 property of every description ought to be free
y in the public 'tele?
:en by surprise hYt
loj _ Iv his ::' la• and he hoped the
ip 0,,_ resolution on that subject. He still
Noble Lord would with-
he 64 _ yof making reductions by increasing the
he pet upounPanr!ssive. He thought an additional tax might
so that he vis'aitit ettett'Portonit
ter as to express "•-isi
is able to wails '
He threw out this hint that it might
le for any une to 1.4te1l ennoitrits.
in Committee. With respect to the
stility than he 7,40. 44eti" of thered
of tp,per.,aexpenditure, particularly that on tobacco,
funded propertP tkt
would go the full length
• stall . b the 1,,T I‘, and coals, he
orturtity of
_,,j. tit ill Noble Lord, I • ' him his I
oer heard props- P Pert e Objectionable proposition of taxing transfers of pro-
x was the boldeet.r,A
ititikhie L'odt would be reconsidered, and he was sure
ipe, that the GI" 00 d would be convinced of the propriety of
a surplus ins
~t, edd.4lrasein .
rreatest astonish? _
i
, itio„e, g that proposition. He also objected to the
4,,•"" duty on raw cotton.
continuance of le era several
isle
lioesto if Yto nthers rose at the same time, but gave
a peace po J ty 1, ki.
Such bad been' if ' pra • IC. Do
, 0 , posit. UGLAS-He said that in his opinion the
nd Tierney me t 44 ti I°4B of the Noble Lord were founded in the greatest
.esolution oft''‘ .` ,ho ' -ee; or h
, beet, an, c would go farther, and say they were dis-
tvide for the °' '
;001 , 7qatin,_," ,0 the country would think ,rhea b
en they became
ion of the oat} b
1 •Iti d " With them. The Noble Lord haa not ex-
,it Was absolutioit 14;4,1 to the House whether be intended to
doss of not less /erf tie 'lle thtransfers
fiat had conajuryo st e Pro
Petty
i
NI , Petty of joint stock companies, Bank stock, 1
yt ;. he thought, if that was not explained,
of money in the saving banks,
of necessary an
,11. the 1
,_ ,a.Propert
of theirs had b64,-,A ,S' '"..a. 1 a`ernent
jeot
of a
sinking wey„ ttareerne_ h t would appear before the public
t sties, erwould lead to the belief that such was his in-
iblic creditor, buthtl4l si I."' He therefore
sitabee,
Oa
thatierefore hoped that an explanation would
ae by means °t. - elpoint. He (Mr. Keith Douglas)
iods when the I°`/014 'ille ,biected to the equalization of the duty on
add be able tag, ltOp a distinction
penditure, by e• .lail ' kaaott.ed fro__our
ought to be made between that
r own colonies from that of foreign
they bad done 1° att 1,1 !Pes. We
in' te the , regretted that no allusion had been marre
iving of threeen_a „ the Noble Lord
indiesto the distress that existed
in other instsalit le 4 west After some further observations,
OD and a half' offi‘ r
i l'it re". 14etriber*
said that he should give the resolutions
be tax on the .1. 11°14 deulded )16
tr. Alder and determined opposition.
in onstitne_m_ an THOMPSON oould not, in justice to
said that the 11:101
o:Zeritt
anfetaxs let the present discussion pass over with-
I been distinga fete observations, and expressing his opposition
ctions which tbre°o4l lesiltiett Pro •
position of the Noble
ful With sttoe, trao,f Lord for laying a tax
•fartoe .
00,0 , itileitto er of funded property. If the public cre-
ti relied,ther on the justice of Parliament at a time
notmtbsinokmethst t'le'
the considered the reduction of the 5 per cents. to
treat them 140° '114411•44
ttbfg 1t,.. litiet t, 4 per cents. to 3.1, they then relied upon the
e must berieo_4 .0.4 t„ nat no alteration would b made onthe
us the best I"; f_leutdi NUJ a,r
eveat red to the proposition. He was conSdent
of the Canada' si".
greatest dissatisfaction in the city of
any that caolet,iji seetteen'lntlafordthe
a precedent for the Minister of next year,
y been occuP'w-e 'sitre -he Lai b
t.. . tete pal , g t be, to come down to the House and lay
nprovements '" P
, 0 ,
Any ttie ,_ 'B2 of one, two,
, 41444 iirat over
of
the
fundedor three per cent. If this tax
entry should tile for
property were to take place, it
thought that tivoliti (tit: %het° the
p. effect of ri • riving capital out of this country
rong, but be t eptqk ar, lc, where
in to . , ohs.. eat.) i; the Government did not interfere.-.
ing so much, o,es: at, 'bolt eal%)-He was quite satisfied with the
ether. Tneni it, . ) t, of
0 ot; 7,, tit if the reduction of coals, candles, glass,
we carried on , eroo, , t..,_
accompanied
teitP
oil ;st ee-.4 on the measure was to be • • • d
gn trade was ,0 te iseetiet,,. the transfer of funded property, lie was sure
ito sacrifice it di t, nNe ea '7 'Would
~.es
too t,,,.. . to, much rather that things should remain
We had a.' t no state that
~1 ,e, i nat they were at present than I • lave any
ur conirnercl se() ast, tJ, e„ MI.
es by allosving ;Or/ th. 4 ta„`IIIDTT,,,,
•est v .st se • 'sol•EY agreed that want of good faith
re going to # f
_.f. lett. ire pl nuns national •
imputation ; and if he thought
:her advantage ltro tel 14, han °f the Noble Lord was liable to such an ob-
t at all.--(11e$; ofr 4144 he want(' he
. Lettsl;‘,poWereev one of the first to resist it. He con-
d's ,roposition ,
r 0
__A Of 1",11 I‘eia.', thatpu2,.. the income tax was just as much a
sly aPPr ev"ttonsiotit tip" been lirealai, and the property of the fundbolder
yon raw en be A ii„.. thee., er,
subjected
reduction di toct et•""ops red seas to taxation, the course now
safer of landes'ltt ef ;Zen: eti also bile violation.-(Hear, hear.) It was
of funded pr°r-iberi he , he .. With
refs a corresponding tax upon all landed 0 ,
,rence to the t. ques ion of a sinking
l not know b etre( tlio tuleta, "gnt with
r intlitht
that our 1 the Noble Lord that there ought to
e considered biro?
at the Pus ; but after many discussions, he
ne day, and 11° 0 the tken
.„,, eti a , , Nth, seee„...,propriety of keeping up a sinking fund
,id be rapumij be .0 et ,
..., i. at ~ ,t at ,„-nolly
combatted. If a sinking fund were
the tax won „, ortif !ilk", etas- Y tithe .
11 on insurane-ii et 41 7) if
vei k ~' of the it
ought not to Ire pressrved in the
ought not to be awed into any such
ear..,_why dt.f.,se tic:n.4,o-44 of
absolute country. It was now a matter of
) e_e.(o`..ros for. di 'Y on te necessit to remove taxes press-
cat once • A ate , eeke.at 14. ~..e people,
, although he was most ready to
were in gooe ro setteelog ere attent
d to sell their Peri to4,l4s4Noime by threat
°Wig • tra ' Atha the Bof insurrection. No man could
who were tbeie,e ego, ee• condition of the working classes three
settlement 00 0.10,10. ;si Pabli -about being aware that the time must come
hter 0•011"rter# Nktlati e Ceti.
aug f ogg .40 11. f 0 Tea of eve would • . .
require general alleviation.
r class of pe , ,01,- • „,
of o:tilat L the Noble Lord were admirably calcu-
e meant etas, 411 SiApt u-Ject, and
Ground-OW/ VI ,Gue„n_ amply redeemed the pledges of
,don, bad of 0 iledit Ist 14se
.st•tEt.......wient -_(Hear.)
rtY ve i 0 4opet,,h4 ereeded concur with most Hon. Members
)f prope
ea, , tf, bai 1 Ine, that it is
in mitotic!' y r... 0 , giv to . ' eration of
Why
were
tbfetioK 4, iet vbe retoi,,ot. the details of most of the /axes
v ~, pt'
,weilne sehient"til! until we have bad the opportunity
Clisucellor, 0 ,e,
gr. ittll tretelele entitled let mature deliberation to which it
er House, A a JI, t,, t th, ought • In the •
atura,,s , commutation of taxes this
i millions Co ottrlO 4:t ea Uter •
be Co ells 4, oft, in ,aitS to be borne in mind-that there
cos on t vet
t ` of 14 "ter the 'ng that is
commutation, that you will
double tb3 010 of! I, tOti 4dVant
roe tio, vtl.4 Y p Olean i age upon the party you intend to
obe the vt it esti roved tne eonsu
e to escePeso 00 0 I,l;ait , tie's that v._
.Iner. Experience has fre.
..0.,,
lii, Nees ~'uto the
consume :e rice of the commodity has not
had put 3 t .
and
i tidos! rP; kg.. 0, th': net be
Iv.er, while the whole additional
e w s glad' td pea i Public .aY Into the pocket of the retailer.
d grievou 9,ei f tliesota,. tripotit, ls subjected to
a new. charge on account
ist the as' itiool/1 tt.,!'ett" Wise le n, and is
.a.ot to gain a corresponding
their itoP°9 be 4 -N. t Yoen that i
be I 1 ,4t, tua
of wi , tnposition is removed, pro tante
them to a
the at
th 41 to confer •
to ris not communicated. The
„ tile Pore , ~..,.1.,,z011%,,,..e /ter tax, among
nxiety 0--, set,. oft sh. 7 41-'1 ito(Cer cities not
,use nail id, 111,04 ~i 714 4:4,rei desired ;
and
benefit to the degree that
nd this fact ought to lead us
aliment 'vide° it° 11N ea Y t° co •
the 04 it r Itte,4 hv Peeien, consider the articles on which it
had seen i k
' 41's ' the No t° repeal taxes. As to the articles
sin measure iv / 1114 t to kle he ble s,
ow, 4,.., 1 , leo in Lord there are some which, if
ace w° colling P; lk to Y eh% a condition
to the 0./ LoN 4 sumi en, it. it to bear the repeal, have
were clear) y established that
ty of saYit for I (tiNti, % then surplus ,, „or; 0v A t4i, ht ten revenue that •n e might at once
surer 0- oa . 0 -et er, i for r I,4sion of .
s a 010 y Ili kl leer ) (Teal
than taxes, no duty stands more
rgerou , .„, ot
it's 4 4
.......N .
that u
1.) efe 't' tbe, tile 1/4 ra,:ii, Ole. °thing.
mot Pon sea-borne coal.-
the 1•106ee tleol9l',ll I \lke i uY in pined
situation efs more difference in the
di his situ/ stt° fi IN Ykt4equal'itrecuring fuel, the people of this country
Lord il di. Of t04(,11 4 ate Y, 3,, in
.., a . In food and lodging there
lie in- Pry N'ttryPend eleePtin v• I
p re less, iron, the cheapness of
in t •tli tr i t a upon gln cases of
last t° wi yiols ell 7 4 4°l e the n the ~,,,,a_ extreme poverty ; but
otintrY 0 o %114104. Y 1100 Ortttaar means of. procuring fuel. It seems
',u drive° tliet / (spttis 41e O the d, Y Principles of •U 9 t • • j ice to impose a
tie as, A, i‘ iti,oriditie_ istricts wher .
„e ryes rw'reetk i►of, lOetilti °of the , e coal is produced, and
'" f the ay Vea It I,_ ea are , whole population is inured
j
iv ° ~,s k id ~ Of „"e Ooli, thrown •
:fund' 1. el I° .11) .utir Itobe oh • in the way of procuring
. to v
.0e.., ~,,,„ rig e,eh tained by the • • poor pilfering the
go were der. 11, 11 tNs. th, Uevolte er eighbOUrB
. WOUld U.,' 04" Vl' h• Propri confounded •
, the principles of right
ii, Ain itt lot. el, , etor and -"ill-will is produced be-
ender any
_fete 'es lie horo,
_,O soft,tea . the person whose necessity
tran' aireso 0 10,0, tare and animosit. '
large .e t oi,, L.tl;‘lot, oat the coor„ les, inconsistent with
rtsne Is f e„ u engendered, Assuming,
intP°- i . i 00 J itllv'N se-° tee e country can afford to relinquish
t, nan'e '; t 1 Sne ii;:' Jborn "Id be better
the city ateo' tliei tokitlithitCbt or e eel I'' me se ected for repeal than
0 -
,t lc
0.,, ~,k,,, ,at
_t sten, i___ 11.1 tax upon passengers by
es of
theroil_ 7, , . of
Lo re will ,emPOrtance : the Noble Lord a
lace 0, p ,
. the , j
tittititl o t"snet.it will 3 o great difficulty in P."
in or rye
do "0 4;l1-,4" tut,e have , practical collecting
. operation of some
be ti let, el) 0, 14.t0„r) If • cturse bet
be ex . Joy
_e, et to , 44tit he yeeen this countryand I
11, t divt Or 3 k 6; 11), 40t Pero,i,_ oPplied to all re-
clases, it will
loos in the , MN, of ill ',tate "of that •
.i.
of d
0,
,‘ k v _ . . . intercourse, and the Noble
bat na i 001, st,l444ty h." jed,i, that it was to h • '
ruin 8 died bee I•As es 'M th • "ale, and e influenced by the
~
_re i
.4 gt, td
ee,d. etrp„sby the part of the v. ssel in
lad ti3r r l'°' 1 mot tai, 'ng tweetsage. It •
one l'''' f 1001 Ot le • is to be 2s. 6d
• d ° , ..
at
__ . for any
et nn
4,21 they_
ma --(Lord Althorn said,
, new , 0l ac
;47arce4 'lttigzlik i., e was thirty miles '
41 the vo
yap from Ireland, 411- cl

if the tax be to be paid by deck passengers, it will nearly
double the sum at present charged, and consequently
amount to a suspension of intercourse. The Noble Lord
may modify this tax; but it is as well that he should be
aware of the extent of its operation. I am surprised
I that the Noble Lotd gave us no information as to the
estimates of the present year. He said, indeed, th)t
they had been prepared, and that they amounted to 46 mil
lions ; but he did not tell us what sum would be required in-
dependent of the interests of the debt and the dead weight;
still less did he furnish us with any details respecting
the items in the several departments. Ido not know
if it were the Noble Lord's intention to enter into them,
as, from the commencement of his speech, I gathered
that he meant to state, not only the total amount of the
estimates, but the sum of each particular estimate;
perhaps he inadvertently omitted it. But, I must say,
not at all in the spirit of party, that all these matters,
and every other which we have discussed during the pre-
sent Session, are of minor importance, competed with
the proposition of the Noble Lord, to impose a tax upon
funded property. I trust that he will consider the objec-
tions urged to this part of his plan by every body but
my Hon. Friend, the Member for Staffordshire (Sir J.
Wrottesley)—objections urged without reference to politi-
cal predilections or party intere-ts, but from an overbear-
ing sense of duty, and a conviction th-at it will tarnish the
hitherto unblemished faith of this country. Let me ask
the Noble Lord, whether he has read the words of the
contract between the State and the public creditor, when
the latter, possibly in times of great necessity, advanced
his money for the service of the empire? Can terms be
more express and explicit than those employed in the Act
of 1813, which is only the counterpart of a former statute,
for raising twenty-seven millions, by way of annuity? It
grants the public creditor the power of transferring, with-
out restraint, his share in the public funds---" that no
stamp duty whatever shall be charged on aay of the said
transfers."—(Hear.) How can the Noble Lord or his col-
leagues " rail this seal from the bond ?" How can they
get rid of this condition, upon which the public creditor
lent his money to the State? It has been hitherto the proud
boast of this country, as contra-distinguished from other
States, that she has never descended to any such violation
of her honour ; and no ingenuity of argument can get rid of
this, as I think, fatal objection. But, says my Hon. Friend,
with no very conciliatory argument to those who have ad-
vanced their money, " You have violated public faith al-
ready, and you are at liberty to violate it again." That will
be the very inference to be drawn in future from the
violation now recommended. If, in these times, when,
according to the admission of the Noble Lord, productive
industry is in a course of steady and progressive improve-
ment, if, in times of peace and prosperity, you may violate
public faith in the teeth of Acts of Parliament, by impos-
ing a duty of one-half per cent. upon the transfer ofproperty
in the Public Funds, what security can the public creditor
have that in times like those of 1797 and 1798, should
they unhappily return, unappalled by the danger of not
clinging to the maintenance of public faith, which, in fact,
has enabled us to surmount all our difficulties, Parliament,
instead of imposing this comparatively small duty, will
not, under the pressure of adverse circumstances, resort
to a much heavier impost? Those who recommend it may
then say with my Hon. Friend—you have been guilty of
one violation of the public faith, and you may now safely
be guilty of another.—(Hear, bear.)—Let me tell the
House, too, that this is not a question of policy or pru-
dence; it is a question of morals. If the State be not
prepared to meet its solemn engagements with the public
creditor, let us shut up our Courts of Justice; for
what pretence shall we have to call upon individuals
to fulfil their contracts?—(Much cheering.)—l have
heard of public writers, who, founding themselves on
the altered circumstances of the times, have refused to
fulfil their pecuniary engagements. They have contended
for an exemption from the payment of their private
debts ; but I never heard this doctrine maintained,
either in public or private, without a burst of indig-
nation. And shall the State—the State of Great Britain
—set the example of such a departure from the first prin-
ciples of justice and honesty ?—( Hear, hear. )—I can con-
ceive no condition of the country—no circumstances in
which it can be placed, which could justify a proceeding
so nefarious ; but if this be the course to be pursued,
where is the fitness of refusing to individuals the same
license—the same disregard of all law.—the same contempt
of all that has hitherto been held sacred ?—(Hear, hear.)
If we are to descend from the proud position we have
held—if we are to disregard the engagements and the ho-
nour of the nation—if we are to be governed by consi-
derations of mere calculating prudence, independent of
honesty, which has been declared, and till now shown to
be, the best policy—l for one must grieve over the fallen
fortunes and degraded character of nay country.—(Hear,
hear.)—Let us see what remissions of taxation have been
made within the last six years by adherence to the public
faith, and the preservation of the national honour. First
of all, you reduce the interest of the 5 per Cents., and you
afterwards reduced the iuterest of the 4 per Cents.,
making in the whole a saving (I speak from memory only)
of about 2,600,000/. This was a legitimate and an
honourable mode of relieving the public burdens, and the
public creditor bad no pretence for objecting that we had
abandoned the sheet anchor of our safety. If, seven
years since, the example had been set of imposing a duty
of one-half per cent. on funded property, could the public
credit have been maintained so as to enable us to make
this proud, important, and honourable reduction ?—( Hear,
hear.) Then, says the Noble Lord (and I really am sorry
that he condescended to rest his vindication upon such a
ground ; because, in my view, a direct and avowed con-
fiscation would be preferable to such pretexts), " I will
propose at the same time a corresponding tax upon the
transfer of landed property.',: My Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber for S•affordshire can see no difference between this
impost and the property tax; and he contends, that if we
were justified in proposing a property tax, we shall now
be warranted in fixing this corresponding duty upon
landed property. I answer, in the first place, that the
whole of the public income was subject to the property
tax—the income derived from offices and professions, as
well as from land. But how totally different, with rela-
tion to this question, is the income derived from land from
the transfer of land ? By the policy of this law, you
throw difficulties in the way of the transfer of land. Next,
many estates could be pointed out, which have not been
transferred at all, and never are the transfers of land at all
equal in number to the transfers of funded property. I
am sorry, for another reason, that the Noble Lord has pro-
posed this duty. Why ? Because prosperous persons, who
are able to keep their estates, are subject to no tax, while
it falls with extreme severity on those who are obliged
to sell, and can ill afford to pay it. Land is sold,
either on the demise of the head of a family, to pay the
fortunes of younger children, or more frequently, to pay
the debts of the proprietor; so that, the more adverse
the circumstances of the parties may be, the more will
they become liable to this new deduction from their pro-
perty. But what was the condition of the country in the
year 1813 ? We were then so circumstanced, with re-
spect to the enemy with whom we were carrying on an ar-
duous war, that it was thought desirable to make a tre-
mendous exertion for the purp•ase of putting an end to the
contest as speedily as possible.--( Hear.) The annual re-
venue of the country was inadequate to the current ex-
penses of the war. There was no other resource but to
apply to the great capitalists for the means to enable the
Government to maintain the struggle. Although there
may not be at present any grounds of apprehension, yet, I
ask, may it not be a wise policy in the Government of this
country to prevent the greatest of all calamities—a gene-
ral war?—(Hear, hear.) But should it happen that such
a calamity cannot be averted, it will at least be desirable
to bring it to a speedy conclusion. It may be necessary
for the Government to apply to the great capitalists. But
is it expected that they will be ready to give their assist-
ance after their confidence shall have been shaken by the
measures which the Noble Lord opposite calls upon the
House to sanction ?—(Hear, hear.) I shall not new
enter further into the subject, as there will be other
opportunities of going into the details. I did not come into
the House prepared to hear such measures proposed,
although I certainly had beard vague rumours that
something of the kind was intended. But when I heard
the Noble Lord in the beginning of the evening tell us,
that the poor would not be much relieved by a reduction
of the direct taxation, but that the true way to afford re-
lief was to facilitate and encourage the employment of
capital in manufactures, I did not expect that he would
afterwards propose to shake public credia—( Hear, bear)—
and destroy the confidence of the capitalist. I consider
the proposition of the Nolale Lord at variance with public
honour, public morals, and sound policy. On those
grounds I must deprecate the Noble Lord's laying on a
tax upon the transfers of funded property. I deprecate
his making this House a party to the violation of the
public faith, which they had so often pledged themselves
to maintain --(Great cheering.)—ln reply to an Hon.
Member on the Ministerial Benches, whom we could riot
hear, Sir R. Peel said, that he held in his hand the Act
of 1813, extending the income tax to funded propesty ;
but directing that no funded property should be subjected
to stamp or other duties.—(Cheers. )
Lord ALTHORP said, that the Hon. Baronet did nut
seem to be aware that the Act of 1795 contained the
same clause in nearly the same words. It especially ex-
erupted funded property from all taxes, charges, and im-
positions whatever.—(Cheers.)—ln the Act which sub- I
jested funded property to the income tax, the clause is I

quite as strong as in that of 1795. In proposing the im-
pesition of the income tax, Mr.: Pitt argued that he did
' not impose that tax on funded property particularly, but
on that property as part of the general property'of the
country. He (Lord Althorp) acted on the same principle.
In imposing a tax upon fixed property he had a right to
include the funds.—(Hear.)—A Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, who had argued that evening with more than
his asual eloquence, had said that the proposed measure
would injure public credit by making a reduction of the
debt (as we understood the Noble Lord, who was not
clearly audible in the close of several sentences.) But the
Right Hon. Gentleman should recollect that if that were
a reduction, the imposition of the income tax was more
so. and was effected at a time when funded property had
suffered from the consequences of the Bank restriction,
by which that class of property was more affected
than any other. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
asked, was the proposed tax just ? If he (Lord Althorp)
did not think it just he never would have brought it
forward.—(Hear.)—But he thought, that when funded
property. was as much protected as any other pro-
perty, the House had a tight to subject it to the tame
taxation as any other was subject to for the maintenance
of that protection.• He referred again to the Act of 1795,
insisting that the clause exempting funded property from
taxation was not expressed more strongly than in that
which subjected the funds to the income tax, and which
had never been described as a breach of faith. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had said that there was a possibility of
the owners of stock raising money by depositing it as a
security, instead of effecting a transfer, and that thus the
tax would be evaded ; and he had said that the imposition
of the tax would not Only diminish the frequency of trans-
fer, but cause iucreased difficulties in effecting loans; but
he (Lord Althorp) could not anticipate from it any such
results. With respect to what had been said of the tax
on printed cottons, he should reply that he had taken off
the tax, not for the purpose of snaking the article cheap,
but to encourage its more extensive manufacture, and to
give increased employment to the poor.—(Hear, hear.)—
He did not suppose that the taking off the tax would be-
nefit them otherwise than by increasing employment.--
(Hear.)--As to the West Indian interest, he knew that it
was distressed, and he should be glad to do anything for
its relief.--(Hear.)—But he did not think that the tak-
ing off the tax upon sugar would afford that relief. If he
were to take off that tax, he would do so for the purpose
of benefitting not the proprietors but the slaves.—(Hear.)
In conclusion he would say that be did not think the im-
position of a duty upon the transfer of stock was in vio-
lation of the contract with the public creditor, or that it
would have any injurious effect upon the public credit.
Mr. FRESHFIELD, having risen at the same time
with several other Members, and being interrupted in his
attempts to address the Chairman by cries of " Order,"
said that he was fortunately endowed with tolerably good
ears—(Laughter)—and that be had beard the Chairman
say that he was in order. However, he would not tres-
pass long upon the House, as he should be unwilling to
take from the effect of the masterly speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet below him, who had completely proved that
it would be a gross breach of faith with the public credi-
tor if the House should sanction the proposition of the
Noble Lord opposite.—(Hear.)—Yet he would beg leave
to snake one or two observations by way of appendix to
that excellent speech. The income tax had been referred
to, in the hope that something could be gathered from
that tax to support the measure of the Noble Lord. But
no two things could he more opposite. Although he hal
been taken by surprise, he had hastily collected the Acts
of Parliament on the subject of the income tax. In the
debates upon that tax, Mr. Pitt said, that the property
tax was a tax, not on the funds but on the profit. It was
not a p irtial tax, affecting the funds alone, but laid upon
every man's general property. It was clearly never in-
tended to he a tax upon funds, for there was an express
provision in the Act of Parliament, that the property of
foreigners in our funds should be exempted from the tax.
—(Hear.)—Having endeavoured with confidence, though
with little ability, to show that the measure under the
consideration of the Committee bad no analogy to the in-
come tax, he would not trouble the House with more than
that one observation.
Colonel SIBTHORPE expressed his disappointment
that the Government had not fulfilled the promise with
which they commenced the Session. He had expected
that they would have come forward with a long list of re-
ductions ; but, after all, there were only 260 reductions
—who or what they were, or to what amount, he knew
not. But he had expected some considerable reductions in
these taxes which pressed upon the country more than any-
thing else—he meant the assessed taxes, against which
petitions had been crowded upon the table year after year
without effect. The Minister said that their reduction
would not save money but patronage. But the people of
England cannot live upon the patronage of the Crown—.
they had need of snore substantial food.—(Great noise
and talking in the House.)—An Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site had slid that the present was a time of peace. There
might be peace in one way, but he was sure that there was
yet but little cessation to the war upon the pockets of the
people. At the same time he admitted that the reductions
which had taken place would give great satisfaction to the
people. He would be glad that there were more duty on
wine and less on malt. The repeal of the malt tax
would be one of the greatest benefits that could be con-
ferred upon the country.—(Excessive noise in the House.)
—He did not think that he should do his duty to his
constituents if be did not declare his dissatisfaction that
the Noble Lord had not brought forward the details of lib
project.

General GASCOYNE said, that whatever might be
said upon the wisdom or justice of their measures, it was
not to be denied that their intentions were good.—(Hear.)
—He had one or two questions to ask of the Noble Lord,
his answers to which would, he was sure, be heard with
great interest. One was respecting the penny Which was
to be imposed on raw cotton. Was that to be an addi-
tional impost ? If so, it would make the duty on the
raw material, as imported, no less than 30 per cent. upon
the original coil. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of
the Board of Trade had said, that the best way to encou-
rage manufactures was to make the raw material as cheap
as possible. But if they laid on a tax upon that raw
article, which should raise the price to 54, they would
destroy the manufacture. He also wished for an expla-
nation respecting the duty upon coals. And with respect
to the duty on transfers, he was desirous to know whether
it was intended that the duty should extend to transfers of
landed property ? As every part of the whole of the
funded property of the kingdom, to the amount of eight
hundred millions, would, in the course of a few years, be
liable to such a duty, would the duty fall upon property
left to a man's children ?—(No, no; great noise.)—He
was always unwilling to trespass upon the time of the
House ; but when he considered how many throughout
the kingdom looked with anxiety to the proceedings of
the House that day, he could not forbear expressing his
hope that the Noble Lord would examine well the conse-
quences of those measures.

Lord ALTHORP (who was scarcely audible in the gal-
lery) replied that the duty of a penny per pound on the
raw cotton was an additional duty, but there was a penny
taken off the manufactured article, which compensated
for the addition, and left the duty on the whole material
the same as before. Thus the tax would he spread over
the whole trade, which before pressed heavily upon a pa; r.
As to. the duty upon coals, although he had explained his
intention to impose a tax of 10s. per chaldron, that was
in fact a reduction of the existing tax, and not a new
impost. We understood the Noble Lord to say, that the
duty on transfers extended to all kinds of property being
transferred.
Mr. CHARLES GRANT said it was not his intention
to trespass on the House more than a few moments ; nor
did he think it necessary to go into the general merits of
the subject. When his Noble Friend should bring before
the House the details of his proposition, it would be the
more proper time to enter into its merit,,.But he could
not touch it without saying, that his Noble Friend had
acted on that principle which the House had recognized at
the beginning of the Session, to equalize the pressure of
the taxation, and to lighten those which pressed on the,
springs of production.—(Cheers.)—His Hon. Friend
opposite (General Gascoyne) had himself expressed his
plireesewntasstSatt'ereoift incum-
bent‘lthaestradeof
approbation of thslacteeto. B
rmp, reiiuinditcohilptreiln to the House with a budget
,eae.g
reed with the Hon. Baronet
pi
futppwpo on
soit
tni,eattht
country,hpearllit
every
Minister,
other principle ought to give way tooi
that of maintaining the public faith inviolate. He did not
considt.r that the proposition of his Noble Friend involved
any mixed question of expediency and faith.—(Hear.) He
denied that it affected the public faith—(Hear)—and after
the angry and violent attack which bad been made on his
Majesty's Ministers, he felt bound to confine himself to
that subject.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that every one
Of the gentlemen on the other side had begun his speech
with a complaint that he had been taken by surprise.—
One gentleman went so far as even to declare his inability
to express his sentiments, so violent was the shock he had
received. —(Hear, and laughter.) But yet it came out,
somehow or other, that the Right Hon. Baronet, and, in-
deed, every one of them, had heard something about it
that morning.—(Laughter.) That anticipation of sur-
prise formed a very peculiar feature in the present debate.
It seemed to him, however, that none of the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite had escaped from the dilemma in which
the argument respecting the income taa Lad placed them.

He had not heard one of them grapple with it fairly, and
show that there was any difference between the measure
of his Noble Friend and that tax.—(Hear.) An Hon.
Gentleman under the gallery had endeavoured to make
a distinction, and had quoted an expression which he
attributed to Mr. Pitt. But for his part, he (Mr. Grant)
had read the debates in which Mr. Pitt had taken so
prominent a part, on that subject, and he- thought
it incumbent on him to rescue Mr. Pitt from the impu-
tation of having uttered such a sentence. He had no
doubt that it might have been thrown out by some one in
the course of the debates. He could refer, with triumph,
to the opinion of Mr. Pitt, as that Minister was the
champion of the great principle of public faith. Seeing
upon the table the book containing that debate, he would
beg leave to read to the. Committee what Mr. Pitt did
really say upon the subject, to show that the income tax
was not a breach of public faith. He s lid, " There can
he no breach of faith with the public creditor in imposing
on him the burden to which every other subject is liable.
The public annuitant is not to be taxed as such, but he is
riot to escape by saying that I shall have a species of pro-
perty which taxation must not reach." That was the view
of Mr. Pitt respecting the exemption of funded property
from taxation. It wag not for him to say whether or not
that construction was the right one, but it was the con-
struction which the Legislature itself had put upon the
Act of Parliament ueon which that exemption was
founded. Nor had it ever been said that the subjecting
the funds to the income tax was a breach of the public
Nth. He considered that case quite analagous to the one
at present before the Committee. No difference between
them had been pointed out. He agreed with the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite, as to the necessty of main-
taining the public faith unimpaired, and of adhering to our
engagements with the national creditor. Nut he thought
that the principle which justified Mr. Pitt in imposing the
income tax upon funded property in the face of the Act
of Parliament so often referred to, did also justify his Ma-
jesty's Ministers in the measure which they proposed.
Neither did be think that the House would shake the
public confidence in the funds, by imposing the tax on
transfers. Ile could not see that such a tax would prevent
the investment of property in the public securities.—(The
Hon. Gentleman sat down amid considerable cheering.)
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN said, that he should take
care not to express surprise, although he never heard a
word about the Noble Lord's intention until he came into
the House. But he did not wish to subject himself to the
censure of the Might Hon. Gentleman who had last ad-
dressed the House ; and for the same reason he would en-
deavour not to imitate the Right Hon. Gentleman's warmth
of manner. It appeared to him that the Noble Lord op-
posite had searched through the Acts of Mr. Pitt to find
as illegal act to bear him out in doing that which was
contrary to law.--(N no.) The tax proposed by the
Noble Lord was a grossly partial and unjust property tax.
He was willing to allow to the Noble Lord that the Act
of Mr. Pitt was an illegal one, but he could not allow '
that the Noble Lord was justified by that in coming for-
ward to ask the House to imitate the injustice. But if he
(Sir E. Sugden) understood the Noble Lord rightly, be
considers that breach of contract by Mr. Pitt sufficient to
justify another breach of the contract on his part. With
the sincerest respect for the Noble Lord, he could not help
saying, that there could not lie a grosser violation of pub-
lic faith than had been proposed in his financial statement
—a greater violation of public faith had never been adopted
by the most revolutionary tribunal. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then referred to the Act of the sth of George
IV., observing that it expressly declared, that no stamp du-
ties should be charged upon the transfer of stock by which
a benefit was gained without any individual suffering. It
was evident from this, that one of the conditions upon
which that property was created consisted in there being
no stamp duties chargeable upon the transfer, and the House
must see, that by removing one of those conditions, as
indisputable a breach of public faith was committed as
revolutionary France had ever perpetrated. If such an act
was to be committed, he thought the Bill by which the
measure was to be carried into effect should recite the sth
of George IV. or at least those clauses, and the declara-
tion for the protection of that species of property, which.
they contained. He believed that there was not a Mi-
nister ever called to the counsels of the Monarch who
would, in the present times, have the hardihood to pro-
pose a measure that would so carry upon the face of it
evidence of its own injustice. If they were to adopt the
recommendations of the Noble Lord, be would desire to
know where they were to stop ; he likewise begged to
know, even supposing the transfer tax a just one, where
was the necessity for such a tax ? He begged the House
to look at its probable consequencea. Millions of British
capital would find its way out of the stocks of this country
into the public funds of more favoured lands. By the
high public credit, which, up to the present moment, had
been cherished and maintained in this country, the surplus
capital of all the world flowed in towards us ; but if once
fiscal regulations were allowed to interfere with it in the
manner
adieunn to the system erproposedr bytshem from Noble which so muchLord,theynational
wealth t forever
bid
wealth had been derived. Let Honourable Members look
to the effect it could not fail to have in the City to-
morrow morning. If the City once became impressed
with the conviction that the Noble Lord would be able to
carry his measure through the House, there was not a man
in Europe who had money in the public funds who would
not find his property instantly diminished in value. On
these grounds lie was determined not only then to express
his disapprobation of the proposed duties, but in all stages
of the measure to offer to it the most marked and pertina-
cious opposition.
Mr. WARBURTON derived great pleasure from the
statement of the Noble Lord, though there might be some
few and comparatively unimportant points. As to what
had fallen from the Hon. Baronet, he could by no means
agree with him, that prices were not influenced by an aug-
mented cost of production. With respect to the duty on
coals, he could not but regret that the advisers of the
Crown should have thought it necessary or advantageous
to propose to Parliament any measure intended to facili-
tate the export of an article which admitted not of repro-
duction. There was scarcely a hope that the supply of
Newcastle coals would continue beyond four or five hun-
dred years.—(Hear, hear, and great laughter.) But to
be serious, he wished to avail himself of the opportunity
which that occasion afforded, of calling the attention of
the House to the many abuses which the present state of
our Excise Laws occasioned. An intelligent French tra-
veller, Sitnond, in writing about this country, expressed
his astonishment at the frequent interference of our do-
mestic manufactures to which those laws gave rise,
rin-
stancing what he saw at Dumbarton in the glass trade;
during the whole process an exciseman was present, and
that as one ofthe
country,iieetve,
thatd h
idcere-
tainly appear incomprehensible to Monsieur Simond. Com-
ing
the loss would amount to one-half
institutionsth timber
o hef a l
fa d ee
to e
bi nyg
no
o now
meansto the
tin
what was estimated, and there was this advantage in the
proposed arrangement—that while they imposed some ad-
ditional charges upon timber, they gave advantages to
the shipping interest which it had not before enjoyed,
in consequence of what had been done for the benefit
of the coal trade. On the subject of the cotton trade,
he could not refrain from expressing his regret that so
laoge a portion of the duty laid upon that article was to be
withdrawn from the Government in the shape of a draw-
back, which, in truth, would amount to nothing less
than three-fourths of the whole amount. He confessed
he should infinitely have preferred a smaller duty without
a drawback, and applying equally to all sorts of cotton.
A further subject of regret with him was the proposed
duty upon steam-boat passengers—the object of that tax
was on infant branch of trade, facilitating the communi-
cation between different parts of the country, and which
he thought should, on that account, be reconsidered by
his Majesty's Government ; and he sincerely hoped that,
upon re-consideration, it would not be thought necessary
to continue that duty. He now came to the great question
that night discussel. He fully concurred with the Noble
Lord and with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that
to propose the duty vpon the transfer of stock, as
they bad quite as much right, anti it was fully as just in
it was in Mr. Pitt to propose his income tax. Still,
looking thing, he would not undertake to say
thatire at
ea verrey ought
to
be
persevered in, if it came to be
regarded by any large minority even as a breach of public
faith. It would be no discredit to his Majesty's Govern-
ment to reconsider a proposition of that nature ;
and he hoped that, upon reconsideration, they
tmeasure
would not consider it necessary to impose the tax so much
objected to. They would do honour to themselves by
throwing aside all considerations of a merely per-
st:nal nature; and making the preservation of public and
private credit an object of the highest importance. It cer-
tainly would act at a far greater per centage upon funded.
than upon landed property, and would be, to that extent
unequal operation. The opinion of Mr. Ri-
cardo,(Mr. W.) fully concurred, always
ahned
,equal property tax, however small,
anything that might be called a modified
pwwartaao:lpelrittelYafienttroada‘fxbv.i'le.:liectatir t the present moment, personal, as com-
pared with real property, was most unequally taxed.
There was a legacy tax, which a friend of his had esti-
mated as equivalent to five per cent. upon all personal pro-
perty. The proposition of Mr. Pitt upon the subject of
the legacy duty was, that it should be extended to all de-
vises of real property there was equality and fairness in
that. However, upon the whole, he thought there was
much cause for satisfaction at the statement of the Noble

Lord; and though he tu:g.L. h.re differed from him on
the points he mentioned, be should give to the Govern-
ment his hearty support.
Mr. ROBINSON observed, that the Noble Lord had
professed to impose taxes upon a principle of equality,
while the tax upon transfers was chiefly confined to
funded—there were two sorts of property affected by it,
and all other descriptions completely exonerated : in moat,
however, of the proposed reductions of the Noble Lord,
he fully concurred : yet he by no means gave to the taxes
substituted that general support ; for example, he thought
it highly inexpedient to deprive ourselves of the benefit of
the Portuguese market, for the sake of relieving French
wines, already considerably relieved. from duty. Then
there was the case of tobacco : he confessed himself one
of those who thought that many much more suitable
objects of relief could be found than the trade in
tobacco; for instance, he thought it would be I.y
far better to reduce the duty on soap. He thought
that the change in the timber duties was premature : for
at the present moment a great and important experiment
was about to be tried ; intercourse between the United
States and the West Indies was about to be opened ; until
the result of that was ascertained, it was rather hazardous
to relieve Norwegian timber at the expense of Canadian :
besides, foreign timber generally came in foreign ships,
whereas, Canadian timber generally came in Britieh ships,
from which it was obvious that the maritime power of this
country might be most materially injured ; for these rea
sons, then, he should, without actually offering to his
Majesty's Government any direct opposition, feel bound
to watch their proceedings, amongst others upon this ac-
count, that he thought they had upon the present occa-
sion taken the House rather by surprise. He concluded
by expressing his strong disapprobation of the transfer tax,
as likely to send many millions of surplus capital out of
the country.
Colonel TYRELL listened with much satisfaction to
Many of the statements which came from the Noble Lord,
and he regretted to find that, amongst the proposed reliefs
there was not to be any diminution of the malt tax.—(A
laugh.) He really conceived it to be a fitter subject for
diminution than any other. He could not help expressing
his surprise that, amongst all the attachrneut professed to
the principles of free trade, the Government had not
thought proper
,to give them a free trade in money, the
one thing needful ; he was, therefore, sure that the great
bankers would hear with dismay the statement made that
night in the House, and that it would be received as.a great
fiilure on the part of the Noble Lord, by them, and by the
country at large.
Lord MORPETH said that his Noble Friend bad done
great credit to himself and to the Government' of which
he•was a member, by the statement he bad that night
made; and he entertained no doubt that that statement
would be received by the country at large with much sa-
tisfaction. As he was the representative of several large
and important bodies, he trusted the House would indulge
him with an opportunity of saying a few words. He en-
tertained not the slightest doubt that the reductions and
retrenchments proposed by the Noble Lord would be re-
ceives! by the country with much thankfulness, not only
as a substantial concession for the presen►, but a promise
and continued encouragement for the future; and he
trusted that what had been so well commenced would be
advantageously followed up sad improved on. A war-cry
had been raised against his Majesty's Government of spo-
liation and of breach of public faith—much declamation
had been directed against them; but that could not be
considered of the slightest value or importance, unless it
could be shown that there was a greater d'fference between
the tax on property in or out of pocket and that upon the
transfer. All other interests were at the present mo-
ment taxed, and why not the moneyed interest? It
was perfectly true, that his constituents were not much
interested in the repeal of the duty on sea-borne coals;
but he believed there was not a second opinion
amongst them upon that duty—they all regarded it
as a tax severe and partial in its operation. As to
the arrangements respecting cotton, they hail his
m ►st cordial support ; .the tax
,upon imported cotton
affecting all parties alike, while the repealed tax gave
relief to the lower classes exclusively. He especially re-
joiced at the removal of the tax upon newspapers—in that
he felt a peculiar interest, sad he should have much pride
in presenting to the House on Monday the petition of the
printers of London and Westminster. In presenting that
petition upon the subject of the tax in question, he should
no longer be anxious to implore the support of the Go-
vernment--instead or imploring that assistance, he now
felt himself in a situation to call upon the House to:support
the announced intention of his Majesty's Ministers.--
(Hear.)—Their conduct respecting the Civil List had his
warmest approbation ; in their arrangements upon that
head they appeared to have been governed by a nice sense
of justice and of honour, as well as by a delicate percep-
tion of what was due to the interests and feelings of others.
It might he that in what tl•ey had done they had not se-
cured the popularity which some would think so desirable,
but he hoped they would go on, and he was assured that
they would attract the approbation of the wise, and sooner
or later the rest would be added unto them.
Mr. EVANS could not agree in supporting the duty
upon the transfer of property, for he thought that it would
prove prejudicial to national faith, and generally speaking
he should much prefer a well regulated property tax.
Mr. D. NV. HARVEY thought that most of the Hon.
Members who opposed the propositions of the Noble Lord
vetned to lose sight of the great advantage of his scheme.
Where was the individual forming a part of the late Go-
vernment who hoped for the possible repeal of two mil-
lions, after all the reductions that had recently taken
place ? He proposed to repeal no less than three millions
of taxes—imposing in lieu of them only 1,200,000/., that
was 800.0001. upon the transfer of funded property, and
400,000/. on the transfer of land. If that proposition
was to be resisted, and successfully resisted, upon prin-
ciple, it could not but prove highly consolatory to the
fundholders, as affording them cmclusive evidence that
since that did not, no other fiscal regulations could affect
their property. It had been said that there was no dis.
tinction between the transfer tax and an income tax. If
there were to be any disappointment on the subject, it
would consist in this—that instead of a tax on transfers of
only 1,200,0001., there had been expected a tax on pro-
perty of several millions. He should certainly give the
Government his support, for be thought it was factious
for any man to oppose any proposition unless he was pre-
pared to suggest a substitute. Many of the landowners
had that night stood forward as the advocates of the fund-
holders. Now, if instead of a tax of ten shillings upon
the transfer of land, they had proposed thirty shillings,
they would have relieved their friends the fundholders, and
paid a high compliment to the.landed interest.
Mr. HOLME SUMNER denied that the Government
plan would afford a saving of 2,000,0001. as had been
stated. The taxes new to be imposed amounted to two
millions seven or eight hundred thousand pounds. Ac to
the repeal of the duty on coals, it was a measure that bad
his most cordial support.
Mr. BENETT observed, that it seemed to be generally
agreed that it had at length become necessary to take the
taxes off the productive industry 01 the country, in order
that it might be imposed on the higher classes of society,
who were better able to bear the burthen. Of such a
course as this he most cordially approved ; and even had
the Noble Lord carried it to the extent of proposing a ge-
neral income tax, it should have met with his support;
but, though no property tax was proposed, enough bad
hero done to enable the Government to get rid of some
most obnoxious taxes (and than those that had been chosen
there could not lie better), and farther than this they were
not able to go. Perhaps the Noble Lord had not proposed
a property tax because he did not believe that the time for
it was yet come, but he (Mr. Benett) felt well satisfied,
that at all events it was near at hind. With respect to
the case of the fundholder, he did not see what right he
had to complain—with the change of the currency, his
property had been benefitted nearly thirty per cent., and
he, therefore, had no right to cry out, now that a tax of
one-half per cent. was put upon his transfer. The time
was come when the fundholder must bear his share of the
burthen ; they were now the rich men of the country,
and they, therefore, ought not to be surprised should they be
called on to beat• a portion of the weight of the public ex-
penditure. So far, therefore, from objecting to this tax of
one-half per cent., he thought that they would act wisely
by holding their tongues, or, perhaps they ought rather to
accept it as an actual boon, for it might be the means of
protecting them some short time hence from a much more
grievous imposition.

Mr. HUNT rose amidst cries of " Queition !" He
sid that there seemed to be three parties on this question
—the law, the land, and the moneyed interests : now he
did nut come tinder any of these heads, for he was there
as the representative of the people.—(Cries of " Oh !"
and a laugh.) But though that was his more particular
station, he felt it to be his duty to protect the interests of
all parties. As to the measures proposed by the Noble
Lord, he felt obliged to him on the part of the people, as
fur as any taxes were taken off. With respect to the re-
mission of the tax on tobacco, however, he wished that
some other more necessary article had been substituted in
its place—such as soap. He looked upon the use of to-
bacco as the use of a disgusting weed—(A laugh)—and
those that used it, as they did it in the shape of a luxury,
ought to be made to pay for it. With respect to the
taking off the tax on newspapers and advertisements, he
was sure that it would be responded to by all classes in the
C.untry—(Heir, hear)—and as to the tax on coals, the

that it had been allowed to remain so
lohowever, now that it was to be re-
ould not be destroyed by the little mo-
ted in the city ; the jobbing that took
beyondg
conception—(Hear, hear)—and
loratoipb acgv:e. ti e
sd:
tsewigir
eeerlait
ieertc,ffei;aiesw9cteetaxds%
the manoeuvres that woe carried on between the coal -
meters, coal-merchants, and other parties were net done
away with, little good would he done to the community
at large. It had been well said, that in removing taxes]
on'y in part, the public were not much benefited, it
being chiefly monopolised by the dealers. Time tax on salt
was a strung instance of this ; when only a portion of that
tax had been removed, but little benefit hail been de-
rived by the community ; but when the whole was takan
off, and the paraphernalia of excise and collectors were
got rid of, it-was found to be one of the greatest boons
the public had ever received. With respect to the calico
prints, the whole country would be rejoiced at that; for
the duty on that sort which was worn by the lower orders
was 80 per cent., while on that consumed liy the rich it
was only 2i. As to the proposed duty on cottons, lie
thaught it wrong that a general duty of H. z. 16 should
be imposed, because this immediately made the tax une-
qual, the rich getting their cottons at as cheap a rate as
the poor; it would have been better, therefore, had the
finer sorts of cotton paid more, and the coarser sorts less.
At the same time he was bt.und to say that he ',Hayti()
the Noble. Loral had come- forward with the best inters_
tuns towards the country—(ilver, bear)—and he cer-
tdnly could not have done better than in laying the whole
of his propoaitions clearly before the public, as he ha
done. As lie understood the case, the present Govern-
ment had come into office with three pledges-_a great re-
duction in taxation, a Reform in this country, amid not).
intervention with the Government of any other couotiy.
On the strength of this, great expectation was entert tined
by the people, and they certainly (lid anticiente that a
great deal would be done. All that he tested was that
the people would not be altogether satisfied .with this
amount of reduction which the Noble Lord proposed.
The only fault, however, that be had to find with the
a atement, as far as that was concerned, was Vat in hit;
proposal of the I per cent, duty on the transfer of funded
property, he had acted in the sone open manner as on
the other .points; for, as they had been told by the
Hon. Member for London, they were no more able to
melieve the distress sf the country, and keep the national
faith at the same time, than it was in the Noble Lord's
power to satisfy the wants of the people to.-morrow. He
fmad been accustomed to meat the public out of that House.
and he would tell that Honourable House what the public
thought of the national faith. Instead of national faith
they looked upon it as national rebbery and national delu-
sion.—(A laugh, and hear.)--'He hoped the House would
boar with him ; tin re was arrayed in that House all the
talent of the country ; Ise was only telling them what was
said out of doors, and he did not laminae to tell then: the
same in-aloors.—(Hear, hear.)—A good deal had been
said about this proposed measure being a violation of the
national faith ; but he begged to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), what sort of national faith it was
to change the currency, so that the fundhoider, who was
receiving three par cent., and got one seek of wheat for
the money, was enabled, by the alteration, to get two
sacks for the same money ?—(Loud cries of hear, hear.)
So, in the same way, they had been told that this was a
violation of the law ; but if that argument was good,
every time a law was repealed there was a violation of
the law. In what lie said he endeavoured to make him-
self understood, and he hoped for the indulges-ace of the
House, for as soon as he should find that he was not able
to forward the cause of the people, or that his arguments
were not listened to by the House, he should make his
bow and take his leave of his constituents. lie had been
brought up in • what waa railed the Burdett school—
(Loud laughter and cheers)—and he had often heard the
Hon Baronet give descriptions of that Honourable House
at the meetings in Palace -yerd.—(Laugliter.)—He trusted
that he was not disorderly ; but if he was, he should bow to the rules of the Howe; and he could assure it
that he should hove great pleasure in telling his con-
stituent,' that he had met with fair play there.—(l-lear,
hear.)—lie had heard the Hon. Member for West' minster talk of the House that kept late hours and
bad company; but fir himself he would never say nut of •
the House what it would be disorderly to say in it--
With respect to the passage front Mr. Pitt's speech, which
had been quoted by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. C.
Grant), he thought that, notwithstanding the abilities of
that Right Hon. Gentleman, he had mistaken the point of
the quotation, for it appeared to him that the argument
contained in that extract was in favour of the opponents;
of the Right lion. Gentleman.__( Hear, hear ) In this
respect it reminded him of an Hon. and Learm (1 Gentle-
man with whom he had had the fortune of arguing a point
in the Court of King's Bench. That Learned Gentleman
(he must not mention names), the M-mber for some Wace—
he did not know what—had cited a case, and was about
to hand it up to Mr. Justice Bayley, when lie (Mr. Brunt)
whipped across the Court, and begged to be allowed to
read it, which being done, he also handed it up to Mr.
Justice Bayley, and said, " I rest toy cone on that too, my
Lord ;" and the opinion of that Learned Ju4e was clearly
enough expressed,. by saying, " Mr. Hunt must have his
rule."—(A laugh.) What was proposed by time Nate Lord
might make a slight panic in the City, but it would
give great satisfaction to the country. For himself, he
wished that the Government had been bold enough to
take off the malt tax, the house and window tax, and the
soap tax, and put on a property tax in their place at once.
(Hear, hear.) But perhaps the situation in which they
had been left by the late Government, had pr vented them
doing more. However, as far as they would go in taking
off taxes, they should have his hearty support.—(A
laugh.) He did not, however, believe that the Govern-
ment was strong enough for such a measure as that which
he had proposed. Let them, however, mince effect a Re-
form in that House; and then, with a Ministry which
had the confidence of the people, those measures could be
carried. With respect to the tax on wines, he was glad
that they were going to be equalized. The tax on steam
boats, however, he objected to, because it would prevent
the poor Irish pigs--(A laugh)--or, at least, the poor I: ish-
men—(Loud laughter)—from coming over in the steam-
boats ; and, indeed, cut off all connection between Paddy
and John Bull.
Colonel WOOD thought that it would have been better
if the malt tax (in whole or in part) had been taken tiff„
instead of the duty on tobacco. The duty on candles also
pressed very heavily on the poorer classes.
Mr. BEAUMONT said a few words, which were in-
audible in the gallery.
The three resolutions were then put from the Chair,
and carried ncm. din.
The House resumed, the report was brought up, and
ordered to be received on Monday.

TRUCK.
On the motion of Mr. LYTTLEToN this Bill was read
A secon.l time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.
SCOTCH BANKRUPTS.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to continue, for a certain and a short period, the exist-
ing Bankrupt Act for Scotland. The Bill wus subse-
(pent!), brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time on Monday.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WYNN gave notice that he should move the Army
Estimates in the Committee of Supply on Friday next.
Lord STRATHAVEN presentel two petitions from
certain farmers and butchers, for the repeal of the duty ;in
carts with metallic springs.
Mr. GUEST postponed his motion relative to Pensions
in the Civil List to March 8.
Lord EBRINGTON presented petitions from Totneso,
complaining of the mode of electing burgesses for that
borough, and praying for Reform; from Trowbridge, for
economy, retrenchment, and Reform ; and from Parkliarn.
Devon, against tithes. His Lordship stated, that in this
p irish the tithes amounted to one-fourth, and even some-
times to one-third of the rent. If the tithe question were
not set at rest, the roost grievous consequences might be
apprehended. A great ferment had been excited, which
inu,t be allayed by commuting the tither. If it were not
settled, it might disturb the peace of the empire. His
Lordship presented two other petitions from places in
Devon to the same effect, and gave notice that on Alonday.
he would present a petition from Devonshire for Reform
in Parliament.

I
Mr. JOHN CAMPBELL gave notice that he would
move, on the 24th February, for leave to bring in the Bills
he had already given notice of to the House.
Mr. BOLTON CLIVE presented a petition from the
city of Hereford, in favour of Reform, economy, re-
trenchment, the abolition of taxes un Industry, and dm
cointnutatinn of tithes.
Mr. WARBURTON presented a petition for Reform
in'Parliament from Bridport• Also a petition from Ban-
, bury, complaining of the mode of election in that bo-
rough.
Mr. BYNG presented a petition from Paddington for a
modifictvion of the New Police Act.
O'GORMAN MAHON gave notice that lie would, on
Monday, move for a copy of the address to the King,
by Lord Corry in the Irish House of Petra inithein?e,ri:
of June, 1800 ; a copy of the protest of the 0 v
against the Un(iorino:v
the tootiou.
by Mr. Grey nall.aGeroenyy).,of
nt the ameru
of
.1
English House of Common..
Quarter
Pitt for the second !ending the et of Union in the
ter past Twelve.
Adjourned to Monday, At a