The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-27 00:00:00

THE COLONIES.

PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT of LOWER CANADA.
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY, JAN. 2, 1822.
Resolved,—Thattlie wages of labour, and the price of the
produce of theboil in this province, have diminished within the
last year, to nearly half of their average amount for the two
years preceding,.
That the prices of land and other real property have, within
the same period,- experienced a corresponding diminution.
That great difficUlties, distress and ruinous sacrifices have,
in consequence, occurred among all descriptions of the .indus-
trious classes of this community.
That the exports from this Province of its staple commodi-
ties have diminished within the same period, from an average
value of 1:766,787 to £511,392.
That the imports have diminished in the same period, from
an average of £1,294,734 to £863,155.
That the Provincial Revenue, which is almost entirely raised
from duties on importations, has diminished within the last
year, from £102,142 to £78,164.
That the afore-mentioned results have been partly produced
by the apprehensions which were entertained of an unfavourable
alteration in the duties levied in the United Kingdom on the
importation of wood and timber of the produce of this colony,
by the actual imposition of an increased duty on the timr and
wood of BritiSh•Ntrth AMerica, on the 28th of May last, while
the duties on foreign wood and timber were lowered ; and prin-
cipally, by the unexpected operation of the laws regulating the
importation of corn, flour and meal into the United Kingdom,
whereby the grain of this Colony has since the month of No-
vember, 1820, been excluded for home consumption as effectu-
ally as foreign grain.
That his Majesty's subjects, resident within this Provtnce,
are subject to various restrictions on their trade, imposed by
British Statutes in favour of British navigation, by' the opera-
tion of which foreign vessels are excluded from the ports of this
Province, and its inhabitants prevented from carrying or sending
their staple commodities to foreign markets and obtaining there-
from, in exchange, such articles as might be useful to them.
That the afore-mentioned restrictions, during the general ab-
sence of manufacturing, establishments in this Province, compel
his Majesty's subjects in this Colony to resort almost exclusive-
ly to the United Kingdom for a great variety of manufactured
articles, which they can only purchase with the price of such
staple commodities of the Colony as they may be able to sell out
of the Province, and that the want of such goods would greatly
increase the existing difficulties and distress, and eventually pa-
ralize every branch of industry throughout this Colony.
That under the continued operation of the aforementioned
Laws, affecting the sale and consumption in the United King-
dom of the principal staple commodities of this Province, toge-
ther with the existence of the aforementioned restrictions, his
Majesty's subjects in this Province must soon be put to serious
inconvenience for the means of providing for the necessary sup-
port of a rapidly increasing population, of raising a public
revenue, of maintaining and improving their highways and in-
ternal communications, of supporting their religious and muni-
cipal establishments, and aiding, as they have hitherto done,
with their pecuniary means, and serving personally as they are
bound by the Laws of the Colony, for the defence of the Pro-
vince, in any future wars in which, as a part of the British Em-
pire, they may be involved with the adjoining States.
That itis expedient to petition his Majesty and the two Houses
of Parliament for the free admission into the United Kingdom of
all sorts of corn or grain, flour or meal-and provisions of the
agricultural produce of this Province, for consumption in the
United Kingdom.
Resolved, That a Committee of five Members be appointed to
draft Petitions conformably to the said Resolutions.
Ordered, That Mr. Neilson, Mr. Cuvillier, Mr. Quesnel,
Mr. Viger and Mr. Davidson do compose the said Committee.
FRIDAY, JAN. 4.—Ordered, that leave be granted to bring
in a Bill to enable the inhabitants of the Seigniory of La Baie
du Febyre to provide for the better regulation of the Common
of that seigniority—read the first time, and to be read a second
time on Monday next.
Ordered, that the Bill, for the relief of P. L. Letournetix be
engrossed. • •
The Bill to authorize the Trustees of the Commons of Three
Rivers to concede lots to Ei limited extent was read a second
time. Ordered to be engrossed.
The Bill for better regulating the Sales of Real Property
taken in execution by theSlienffs was read a second time, and
referred to a Committee of five Members.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole, to
consider the expediency of repealing the 25th George 111., inti-
tuled " Ap Ordinance concerning Advocates, Attornies, Solici-
tors and Notaries, and for the more easy collection of his Majes-
ty's Revenues." Ordered, that a Committee be appointed to
inquire what amendments are necessary to the said Ordinance,
and to report by Bill or otherwise.
SATURDAY, JAN. s.—Mr. Davidson presented the Report of
the Commissioners appointed to treat with those appointed on
the part of Upper Canada, to the House.
Mr. Quesnel presented the Report of the Carmissioners for
superintending the making of Lachine Canal.
Mr. Davidson presented the Petition relating to the Agricul-
ture and Commerce of this Province. The question of concur-
rence being put upon the Petitions severally, they were agreed
to by the House, and ordered to be engrossed.
An engrossed Bill, for conceding lots or implacements to a
limited extent in the Common of Three Rivers, Was read a
third time, passed, and ordered to the Legislative Council.
An engrossed Bill for the relief of P. L. Letourneux, a stu-
dent at law, was read a third time, passed, and ordered to the
Legislative Council.
Mr. Blanchet presented the report of the Committee appoint-
ed for inquiring into the means of making known the proceed-
ings of this house and the principal purview of every bill.—Or-
dered that the said report be referred to a Committee of the
whole House on Tuesday next.
Ordered that the Bill to authorise an enumeration and return
of the population of this Province be engrossed.
Ordered that a Committee of seven Members be appointed
to take into consideration that part of his Excellency's speech
at the opening of the last Session relating to the settlement of
the Crown Lands.

QUEBEC, Jax. 3.--Last evening, between five and six
o'clock, a fire broke out in Mr. Lee's Manufactory of Linseed
Oil, at St. Rock, by the accidental boiling over of a kettle of
oil. In an instant the whole inside of the building was in
flames, which with every thing in it was consumed. The flames
also spread to the adjoining outhouses, and two other houses
on the same side of the street, belonging to Mr. J. B. Cham-
berland, and 31r. Charles Lemarie, which were also burnt
down. Mr. Lee's dwelling-house was saved from entire de-
struction, but has been much damaged.
The site of the fire was close to the River at high water mark,
but the tide being low at the time, water was at first procured
with difficulty. The weather was also intensely cold, and there
was a remissness on the part of some of the by-standers in form-
ing lines to hand water from the river. Fortunately the wind
was westerly, otherwise from the proximity of the Houses, all
of wood, under all the circumstances, the ravages of this fire
must have been very extensive.
The circumstances of this fire, in so far as Mr. Lee is con.
cerned, are truly deplorable :—after overcoming the numerous
difficulties which are attendant upon all new establishments, he
had, by the introduction of a Steam Engine and an. Hydraulic
Press, succeeded in bringing this manufactory to a state"of
perfection far beyond any thing heretofore known in the coun-
try, and was beginning to have a reasonable prospect of future
remuneration. He had also added to the establishment a
brewery on a small scale.—The whole is destroyed ; and the
insurance, which is only, we are told, £lOOO at the Quebec
Office, will cover but a small part of the loss, To add to his
misfortunes, and that of a numerous young family, Mrs. Lee
has been lying very ill for some time past in the adjoining
dwelling-house, from which she was forced to be removed to
a neighbour's.
MONTREAL, DEC. 29.—A fire broke ,out on Wednesday
night in the house of Mr. Berthelet, St. Paul's-street, tenanted
by Messrs. Willard and Dupre. Neither of the tenants, we un-
derstand, can conjecture the origin of the accident. The goods
of the former were insured at the Phoenix Office for £l2OO ;
those of the latter at the Quebec Office for £6OO. Mr. Dupre,
by the activity of his friends, sustained a loss comparatively
trifling. The house, we understand, was not insured.
WEST INDIA PRODUCE.—The importations at Quebec
last year from the British West Indies were—
Rum - - 10,517 puncheons
128 hogsheads 11,118,347 gallons.
8 casks
Molasses - 653 casks 60,187 gallons.
Refined Sugars 357 331,5651fia.
Muscovado ditto 2,570
1,419,05616.
1,354 bagst
Coffee • -
1" cas s 73,175 M.
84 bags

PARLIAIVIENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, FEB. 26.

AGRICULTURE.

Earl STANHOPE Exresented a Petition, com-
plaining- of Agricultural Distress, which was un-
derstood to be the same withdrawn last week on
account of informality, and to proceed from cer-
tain occupiers of land in the county of Kent.
He was aware that the Petition could only be
received as that of the individuals by whom it
was signed. But if there ever was a time when
the people ought to express their sentiments
with firmness and vigour, it was at the present
moment, when the burdens of the country had
become intolerable. The Petition was then read
and received.

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.-
- . The Order of the Day hivitii.cleen read,
The Earl of Livcaroor, rose.—He assured
their Lordships that, on this and all other sub-
jects, he had always been of opinion that the
Petitions of every body of men who stated their
grievances to Parliament, and applied fol' relief,
were entitled by the Constitution to a fair and
full consideration. He had no doubt that those
who had come forward on the present occasion
laboured under the heavy pressure which they
described, however mistaken they might be with
respect to the nature of the remedy which they
pointed out. It was for their Lordships to at-
tend to the statement of the Petitioners—but it
was for their Lordships to attend to them, in
their wisdom, and in the exercise of their own
opinion and :judgment, certain that if the Peti-
tioners had fallen into any error, there was no
way to remove that error more effectual than
that which the Constitution allowed—a free and
full investigation. The motion which he intend-
ed to make was for information, a motion which
was not of a nature to meet with opposition.
Their Lordships were aware that the subject
had been extensively taken up in the other
House, that an inquiry had been instituted, and
that measures were in progress, and it was on
that account they had judged that it would be
advisable for them to investigate the state of the
country before any specific measures came before
them. He would therefore trouble their Lord.
ships with a few observations on the present in-
ternal state of the country, and on the recom-
mendations contained in the petitions, in order to
.be able to judge what were the points on which
they agreed, and those on which they differed.
To be intelligible, he should be obliged to go a
little beyond the immediate object of the mo-
tion. Their Lordships must first and constantly
' bear in mind the great increase of population,
which, from the census taken last year, appear.
ed to have occurred in every part of the British
empire. It was a fact, that, from 1801 to
1811, the population had increased from
10,900,000 to 12,005,000, or at the rate of
fourteen per cent. From 1811 to 1821 it had
augmented from 12,005,000 to 14,000,000,
or in the proportion of above seventeen per
cent. Neither was this increase confined to any
part. It had taken place in England, Wales,
and Scotland. In England and Wales the aug-
mentation was proportionate—in Scotland it was
rather less. It was greater in manufacturing
counties, but very little less in those chiefly oc-
cupied in agriculture. In the last twenty or
thirty years the population had in fact increased
more rapidly than in a whole century before,
and that North, South, East, West, and in every
district of the country. The next point that he
should consider was the state of the Revenue.
It was highly satisfactory to find from the offi-
cial returns that the Revenue last year had ex-
ceeded that of the preceding by no less a sum
than one million sterling. It might be asked
how had that Revenue been collected ? With
what degree of pressure upon the people ? lie
could state positively that the produce of the
Excise alone had been twenty-seven millions,
and that in their collection the only deficiency
was a sum of five thousand pounds, the greater
part of which it was expected would be re-
covered. Not only had the Revenue increased,
but it had not been screwed up by any extraor-
dinary exertion. It had 'not been wrung from
the people by forcing the execution of the law,
but had been paid with as little difficulty as
that of any other country could.. ever have pos-
sibly been. There was another important fact
to which he thought it his duty to allude. It
was the beneficial Institution of Saving Banks,
and the rapid progress of the objects of the In-
stitution. The sums laid in these several Banks
in the year ending on the sth January 1821,
were, 707,1061. whilst those placed in the year
ending January 5, 1822, amounted to 1,205,1601.
In the short space of a year the sums remitted by
those who had been able to save them from their
income, had thus increased from seven to above
twelve hundred thousand pounds. The next
point was the state of our foreign commerce.
The increase in our exports last year amount-
ed to between two and three millions sterling.
He was aware that in one branch, the iron
trade, there was a small diminution, but in
the cotton, woollen, and hardware manufactures,
a considerable degree of industry was going on.
He should now come to that part of the subject which re-
lated more closely to the object of the petitioners. He wal far
from insensible to the fact, that a depression had prevailed for
some time, and still existed in the state of all concerns con-
nected with agriculture. But he contended that there was no
proof of its being occasioned by excess of taxation. A similar
depression was found to exist in all the countries on the Con-
tinent. He did not mean to state that as an argument of eon-
solation ; but it was an important consideration bearing fully
on the question, that it was impossible superabundance or
dearth should prevail in other con es' without affecting Eng-
land in some degree, whatever be'' system of its Corn Laws.
He then referred to the information laid kat year oft their
Lordships' table with respect to the state of agsiculture, and

read several passages of Mr. Jacob's evidence, to show that he
had, found agricultural distress existing in Holland, Flanders,
Germany, and France. The Noble Earl also read those parts
of the Address of the French Chaniber of Deputies, and of the
King's Answer, which allude to the same subject. In the
kingdom of Hanover wheat sold at 3s. 7d. a bushel, the other
kinds of grain still lower, and butcher's meat equally cheap.
The prices were in most instances about half what would have
been considered a fair price. It might be supposed that this
arose from excess of taxation, had there not been a country,
Switzerland, where there was no national debt, no stand-
ing army, and scarcely any taxes, and where distress ,was
as great as in any other state. A letter from those parts
stated that the people were suffering under abundance, and
the low price of provisions. Superabundance was not con-
fined to this country. It extended generally throughout
Europe and to the United States of America. He now
came to the question of the measures proposed to encounter
those evils. An immediate and complete remedy, from the
nature of the case, was beyond the reach of any enactment.
The House had heard last yeaK numerous complaints against
the great importation of foreign corn. The question of the
amount of the taxes was not then started as the cause of the
existing distress. It had also then been generally admitted
that agriculture and commerce had been in a most thriving
'condition during the last war. Then, however, the taxes were
much higher than they were at present. ; Since the close of the
contest one-fourth of the whole taxation of the country had
been reduced. In 1815 not less than 18,700,0E101. of taxes had
been taken off, and though 3,000,00001. of new ones had been
imposed in 1816, the reduction upon the whole could not be
estimated at much less than 17,000,0001. And what was the
nature of those taxes, the Property Tax and others, which
were direct imposts and gave immediate relief. He ;did not
mean to say that the reduction of indirect taxes did not pro-
duce an ultimate relief, but three-fourths of those repealed
were direct taxes and went immediately to the pockets of the
consumers. It was stated that although the country paid
only 50 millions now, whilst she had paid 70 millions before ;
yet under the circumstances of the times 50 millions formed a
more grievous charge than 70 millions had been. And to
support this position the depreciation of the currency was
brought forward. But making the amplest allowance for that
depeeciation, still the relief obtained was fully equal to the loss
which the state of the currency had occasioned. The alteration
in its value had never amounted to more than five five per cent.;
and when Noble Lords talked of the depreciation which had
taken place during the war, they talked unfairly, because
they referred to a period when the depreciation was the high-
est. H e contended that the country had gained some relief,
and that the great mass of landed proprietors were not in a
worse situation than they had been. They admitted that
agriculture was in a most flourishing state during the war;
if it had suffered since, they had their equivalent for it
beforehand. Previous to 1792 the whole Revenue was be-
tween sixteen and seventeen millions ; it was now fifty ; let
their Lordships consider what an increase that was. Could
it be denied that the wealth of the country had increased in a
greater proportion than taxation ? Taxation, he submitted,
was an evil only as it bore upon public prosperity ; and the
question must be viewed in all its circumstances, in order to
ascertain whether that prosperity had increased or not. There
were few among his hearers who could remember all the cir-
cumstances of the country previous to the war with France, so
as to compare them with those of the present day. There
were, however, documents upon their Lordships' table, which
clearly proved that a great portion of the national wealth had
accumulated since the period he had mentioned. Indeed, the
whole appearance of the country had altered to advantage._
He would bring some of the circumstances he had mentioned
before their Lordships ; and that he 'might deal as fairly as
possible with the argument, he would take the average of
the three years preceding the year 1790, and the average of
the three years following the year 1319. The annual exports
upon an average of the years 1787, 8, and U, were twelve mil-
lions ; and upon an average of the years 1819, 20, and 21 (in-
cluding a very unfavourable year), were forty millions. The
imports upon the former of these averages were seventeen
millions ; upon the latter, thirty-six millions ; so that the Ex-
ports had more than trebled, and the Imports had nearly so ;
independent of the improvement in the various other branches
necessarily and inseparably connected with these. Looking at
the state of agriculture, was it necessary to bring under their
Lordship? notice the number of Enclosure Bills which had pass-
ed since the year 1790 ; and which had been the means of en-
closing immense tracts of land, formerly waste, or sheep walks at
the best ? This was a new source of public as well as of indivi-
dual wealth. But he would desire their Lordships to look even
at the state of the old lands. He ventured to say that rents had
considerably increased, notwithstanding the late reductions,
which he sincerely wished had been made before. There was
another subject to be considered, principally with reference to
the population, and upon this he thought there would be little
or no difference of opinion. He meant the consumption of
exciseable articles. He should not at all advert to the increased
consumption of corn, as it was difficult to draw any conclusion
from this circumstance, and more difficult to draw a correct
one. Much was to be attributed to the altered habits of the
people (no matter at present whether that alteration was for
the better or the worse) and to, an artificial consumption. But
respecting the increase in the consumption of articles most tax-
ed, and the taxation of which had increased since the year 1789,
he had obtained as accurate accounts as possible. He found
that upon the article of Tea, the tax had increased since the
year liß9, from 13 to 100 per cent. ; and yet had the consump-
tion increased since that period from 16 millions to 22 millions
of pounds; being an increase fully proportionate to the increase
of population, notwithstanding the increased weight of the tax.
Respecting the article of Candles, there would, he apprehended,
be less difference of opinion than there could be respecting that
of tea. He would here fairly state, that in the year 1792, being
a period shortly subsequent to that which he should take for
one of his averages, a auty of one half-penny in the pound had
been taken off by Mr. Pitt. So trifling an abatement could
not he (the Earl) thought materially affect the consump-
tion, but in candour he mentioned the circumstance. It ap-
peared then that in the years 1787, 1788, and 1789, the ave-
rage annual consumption of Candles was 49 millions of pounds;
anu for the years 1819, 20, and 21, 83 millions of pounds ; being
an increase of one-third more than could be expected from the
increase of population. The next article of consumption to
which he should refer was Soap ; for the years 1787, 8, and 9,
the average annual consumption was 292,000 cwt. The duty
had been increased ; and yet for the years 1819, 20, and 21,
the average annual consumption was 643,963 cwt. being also
an increase of one-third more than could be expected from the
increase of population. Upon the article of Leather taxation
had increased, but the consumption had kept up nearly with
the population, the increase, upon the same averages, being the
difference between 32 millions and 43 millions of cwt. It was
difficult to estimate the consumption of Salt, but he might con-
fidently state the increase at 10 per cent. per annum. The
consumption of bricks had increased front 600,000 to consider-
ably snore than a million, being an increase upon the same
average of upwards of a third, allowing for the increase of
population. Upon these details he would ask what was the
actual state of taxation, compared with the increased wealth of
the country ? He would not ask the question with reference
merely
.to the currency, but with reference to the state of the
nation just before the French War, and its state at the present
time. He would ask any man seriously, and desire gum to put
the question to himself, seriously and in his closet, what relief
could be expected, after such a detail, from a practical lessen-
ing of taxation ? He, of course, assumed in his question that a
violation of public faith would not be contemplated ; because
such a violation would ruin onebranch of consumers. The truth
was that the farmer wanted merely a market, and Parliament
had it not in its power to find him one. He was aware that
he should in this part of the question be met by an argu-
ment of his Noble Friend opposite; an argument he by
no means undervalued. It might be said that we created
the market for the farmer; and then took it from him,
—lt was true, that during the war an expenditure had been
made, which, if continued, would be fatal to the country ;
and this had caused an immense market for the produce of
the farmer. But it should not be forgotten, that much of
this marked, consisted in the demand of Government for the far-
mer's produce—a demand of course enormously increased by
the war. During the last years of the war, the demand of
Government for flour only amounted to two millions annually,
and it was now, upon an average, but 6,000,000. This reduc-
tion of the Government demand had undoubtedly been caused
by the reduction of the public expenditure and to create
at the present time an artificial market, would therefore be to
aggravate rather than lessen the evil complained of. It was ;tot
then a question whether this was a state in which we could
wish to have no public mortgage upon the lands ; nor was it a
question as to what we might wish if we were about to be-
come a new community. This was out present situation.
Here were two great Classes of tho community : those who

held the land, and those whohad a mortgage up on it. It was
not denied that to injure the latter would be to injure a con..
• siderable body of consumers. It was agreed on all handS that
faith should be kept with the public creditor ; and that thdbpube
lie establishments should be reduced as much as possible, con-
sistently with the safety of the State, and the nature of a Mo-
narchical Constitution. How far this reduction•might be carried
was a particular question. It would best he answered by an
examination, and To this he would readily agree. But the broad
and general question was, whether we should remit in taxa,
ton the excess of revenue over the expenditure, or apply
it in part reduction of the debt. Upon this question he would
first state his opinion of the profit and loss attending these
two courses. What would be the advantage to any parti-
cular interest of this partial reduction of taxation ? What
proportion did five millions (for that was the excess in ques- _
tion) bear to the annual income and the annual revenue of the
country ? The annual income was 218 millions, the revenue
from fifty to eighty millions. So that a reduction of five
millions would bear a proportion of about one-tenth of the
revenue, and about one-50th of the income Such a reduction
he really believed could not relieve the agricultural interests ;
indeed, he doubted whether it would be seriously felt. So
much for the supposed profit attending the remission of this
five million in taxes. He would now consider the loss. This
would consist in the giving up of that Sinking Fund, which,
kept within reasonable bounds, was the main prop- of our
national credit. The destruction of this Fund would .cer-,
tainly increase the interest of money; an increase which
would be most severely felt by the agrichltural classes. The
principal advantage of low interest, was, that it assisted
that class which was suffering the most. In fact, by giving up
this Fund, we should be givihg up on one hand what we
gained upon the other. If, therefore, he was correct In his
statement of the profit and loss, could those who regarded tha
true interests of the country hesitate a moment in their choice ?
He might here be allowed a few observations upon a political
measure, which, like all other political measures, had had its
feshion. He meant the principle, itself, of the Sinking Fund.
This measure was not entirely Mr. Pitt's, althoogh he had
proposed it for the consideration of Parliament. When it
was first introduced, it was not objected to by those who were
prominentin their opposition to the Ministers of the day.—
Mr. Fox not only approved of the measure, but assisted in the
formation of the Bill in detail ; and offered some suggestions,
which were properly and gratefully accepted ; and even after
the death of the two great men he had mentioned, it had been
warmly extolled by Mr. Sheridan. Doubts had been thrown
upon its policy in a work written, undoubtedly with consider-
able ability, by Dr. Hamilton, about the year 1803 or 1804.
But if he (the Earl) had succeeded in his endeavours to under.
stand Dr. Hamilton, he thought the amount of his objection
went to the retaining of a Sinking Fund in time of war; hes,
cause he contended that what was borrowed from that Fund
during that time was lost to the country. Yet notwithstanding
all that had been urged by Dr. Hamilton and others upon this
subject, he (the Earl) was firmly of opinion that the advantage
of a War Sinking Fund more than counterbalanced any pose
sible disadvantage resulting from it. It possessed a moral ef-
'feet, which was to be taken into consideration as well as the
question of profit and loss. It should be recollected that during
the last war we were fighting for our very existence; and that
our exertions in war gave us a snore unfavourable view of our
condition than we should have in any other state. It had
.been
contended, that with a War Sinking Fund we merely received
with the right hand and paid with the left : but what would be
our situation without a Sinking Fund ? Could we expect to go
on interminably in a state of peace ? No doubt we hoped for
a continuance of peace; we wished as much as possible to
avoid a war ; but war might come ; and should we then place
ourselves in a situation which every succeeding 'war must
render worse and worse ? We should bear in mind that every
other country which had a national debt had also a sinking
fund. France and America, in particular, were the two.
countries to which our observation should be directed. The •
former had a Sinking Fund greater in proportion to its debt
than ours ; and the Sinking Fund of' the latter was so consider.
able as to promise the extinction of the debt in twenty years.
Should we then proclaim to all the world that, with a national
debt greater than that of any other, we took no measure, ea.i
cept during peace, to lessen it ? Ile trusted not ; he trusted
that in the face of all our difficulties we would maintain our
Sinking Fund ; and that if we left our debt to posterity, we
would leave something like a fund for the payment of it. He
now came to the question, whether any measure could be -de-
vised for relieving the distress of the Agricultural Interest. 11 E
had already stated his firm belief' that that distress could not b:
ascribed to excessive taxation ; and even if it were otherwise;
he was satisfied that no reduction of taxation which Parlia-
ment had the power to'make could possibly relieve it. He had
also stated his opinion as to the cause of the distress. The:
cause he believed to be a great excitement, created by a war..
in the course of which we had to contend actually for our
existence. This excitement led to an over production of the
articles of the soil ; and high prices, which in our then situation
were the natural consequence, forced the very poor land into
cultivation. Why should not one production cause, with re-
spect to agriculture, the same effect which it did to every other
branch of national wealth ? It was-impossible for any man
not to know that during the last war the high price of produce
had actually forced immense tracts of poor land into high ceiti-
vation. In considering this part of the subject, it was a matter
of course to observe upon the situation of this country towards
Ireland, with respect to the imports of corn into the former
from the latter. Those imports had been greater within the last
three years than could be expected, after malting every allow-
ance for circumstances which might be supposed to influence
the importation. It was impossible to conceal this fact ; a fact
which could be got rid of by no Legislation whatever. But was,
no one, was no interest benefited by this over production ? 1:
was the duty of Government and of Parliament to hold the be.
lance with even hands, as it regarded all classes of the cot-•
munity. For the Agricultural Interest he begged to express
his high respect. He would even say, that if, without injus-
tice, he could be permitted to throw a feather into one of the
scales, it would be into that which contained the agricultural
interest. But could it possibly be contended that there was
no advantage to any person in the being able to purchase meat
for four-pence a pound instead of eight-pence ? Could it.
be said that this was not a benefit, as far as it went, to any
class whatever ? He was ready to admit, that he thought it
might go too far; but it was a subject which could .not be
regulated by law. The consumer gained by the fall in
price ; but the evil, as far as regarded the produce, must
be left to cure itself. It was obvious that the want of
profit upon produce would diminish production. Ile took it
to be a palpable mistake to say that the distress benefited no
one ; for, in the present instance, it benefited the majority.. In
all great towns it had worked a benefit by lessening the amount
of the poor rates. He had been at sonic trouble to ascertain
this fact; and he could pledge himself for the accuracy of his
statement. The poor rates of the parish in which their Lord-
ships were assembled were never in so good a condition as they
were at present. In fact large masses of the community. had
been benefited by that which he repeated ought not to be
touched by legislative interference. He now came to state to
their Lordships a general outline of the measures to which his
Majesty's Government had thought it expedient to resort in the
present situation of the country. The first related to the re-
duction, of the expenditure. This, in the course of the last
year, would have been much greater, had it not been for to
situation of Ireland. Whether Government, in this reduction,
had gone far enough, it was for Parliament to decide ; but he
would beg to refer their Lordships to the Estimate of the Re.
venue and Expenditure, as settled by the Committee of Fin-
ance for the year 1817. The Committee admitted that the pera
manent Peace Establishment might with propriety. be fixed at
17 millions ; but the Estimates for the present year would shew
a reduction of 1,200,0001. below the sum voted by the Corn..
mittee. He was free to admit that many reductions had been
made, which in his opinion should have been avoided ; but he
was peisuaded that the minimum of expellee had been fixed, • •
even at a desire to submit to inconvenience. The next metes:.
sure to which the Government had directed their attention was •
the securing of a Sinking Fund of at least, five millions.—The •
next was the reduction of taxation, where it could be accom...
plished without a violation of public faith, and without en-
dangering the public safety. The saving by a reduction of the
interest of a portion of the national debt was to be applied to
the reduction of a tax upon an article most in consumption ;
and further reductions might confidently be expected here.
after. In particular we might look for a diminution of that
which at present he might call a dead expence to the couna
try. He alluded to the half-pay and allowances. 'chic
expence, heavy as it was, we were bound by every, principle
of law and justice to defray ; for it was paid principally to
those who had foug,ht our battles in. the late arduous contest.-.
It amounted to nearly five millions, a sum greater than -the
whole expenre of our army and navy, at-,no very earlyper:44,-
From this Charge we might of course look for -a gradual redue.:

- :tin. It wain the nattwe -of a life annuity ; and-though the
red acticre might be slow, it was certain. Ile would here re-
a•iest the attention of their Lordships to the Resolution passed
b Parliament in. he year 1319, expressive of its determination
to maintain a Sinking Fund of five million, to be applied
arainaa the whole capital of the national debt. A Fund thus
seleamla guaranteedait was the bounden duty of Parliament
uphold 4 but whether it would suffn the accumulations of
this Fund to increase, far Abe advancement of its first object,
. or would reduce taxation by the amount of those accumulations,
was a qu6stion which he admitted might he' open for the
consideration of Parliament, and which might be materially
in:ha-need by the pressure of temporary circumstances.—
He now came to the proposed loan of four millions for the
ralieC of that
,distress which was so very properly a material
s'thiect for .their Lordships' consideaation. But before he
etated.hia.views on this important topic, he would shortly notice
4aa,!cireninstinices connected -with the Bullion Committee of IBi '
1t319 it was proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
_and himself to pay the Bank 5 or 6,000,0001. preparatory to
'heir being called upon to resume Cash Payments. It was
.hnwever dwell known that when the Bullion Committee, had
. ..rniasie its report,. the Bank urged the necessity of a larger re-
.paYrnant, and desired that the sum • previously named by Ali-
a i-titers should be extended to 10,000,0001. The Bank was
,cerasidered to have demanded more than was necessary, but at
:the -awe time it was judged right to comply with their request,
.1.,y making a repaytnent to that amount. He was however re-
canciled to it by what had occurred in the Committee. By re-
ferring to the evidence it would be seen that when the pies-
t'oa was asked, " What course would be taken if their issues
of gold should prove unequal to the demand ?" tlie answer
riven was, " That they Must lower the rate of their discounts."
This had reconciled him to the demand thus made. Now,
,though he was ready to Five the Bank every credit for the pu-
- -rity of their motives, and believed them so act or, the best. judg-
. :iticat they could obtain in most cases, it was a most extraordi-
' nuwitcumstakce, that at this moment when 'the market rate
of intefest for money was not more than 4 per cent. the Bank
rial not discount at less than 5. This was the more remarkable
:when another fact which was known to every one was taken
ainto consideration; launch',_ that the exchanges having been
for a long time favourable, to this.country, had brought an im-
•rnense quantity of treasure to the. Bank, which was now in
• their keeping. Though the Bank: continued to discount at 5
. per cent. they had consented, to advance 4,000,0001. on Exche-
quer Bills at three per cent. interest, with a view of.relieving
the algrictiltoral Distress. This stun it was considered, by
. being advanced in loans granted to the Parochial Authorities,
~or brbeing employed through the medium of the Commissioners
Public Works, -or by being used in both ways, moald tend to
.relielethe landed interest, and greatly facilitate the accom-
plishment of the object in view. The principleam which this.
,sum of 4,000,0 JOl. watato be advanced, had already been recog-
-nised when a similar measure was resorted to for-the relief of.
.tho niNanufacturing interest, and he now avowed that he had'
.the best authority for 'stating, that it would in all probability'
..afford great relief. When he said this he hoped no man would
atake up the idea that that he meant to say the measure he had
• recommended, any more than any other, would work wonders
and remove the evil complained of immediately ; but what he
-,meant to hold out was this, that in the judgement of his Majes-
ty'g Ministers, it would afford a considerable palliation. The
loan, it was to be remembered, was not wanted for the service •
.of the public. It war not called for with a view of aiding the
. ways and means of the gear, but it was resorted to solely on
..account of the agricultural-interest, which it was thought would
-derive much benefit from the extension of the circulation which
.would thus be effected. No difficulty could be anticipated
As likely to grow out of it, atThcting the currency, for the con-
.ditions on ai hich :the advance.avas to be made gave the Bank
:the power, the _event of the exchange becoming unfa-
vourable, _to claim the- te-payivent of each million at three
ernonthe notice. This expedient had from the first appeared
,to him .calculated to meet the evil, which most loudly
.ealled for ctuaress; anti nothia7 that he had heard at all
.tended to alter that-opinion. Under peculiar circumstances it
might have been unnecessary. if, for instance, the measure
lowering the Bank discounts had been adopted, such an
Advance might not have been required ; but as the Bank
xontmtved to discount at Tive per Cent., it appeared to him in
all respects applicable to the present situation of the country.
:There -was one other. subject on which he must touch. Their
-Lordships were aware that a Committee of the Commons had
.sat, in the last Session of Parliament, on the Corn laws. Their
'Report was on their Lordships' table. That Committee had
<been revived .in the present Session, to consider whether any
-alteration in the'Cocraaws had become necessary. He doubted
;whether any immediate 'aid could 'be afforded by altering the
•corn laws, but at,the same time some modifications might be
made without -departing from their general spirit which would
prove in many respects beneficial. The existing law was
found defective in this—that it gave the corn grower a per-
cleat monopoly, till the price of wheat rose to eighty shil-
'kings,. and then instead of admitting a gradual supply of
„foreign corn, it allowed of its being thrown in masses into
our market.. This change was too great, passing at once
*rem all absolute monopoly—from an absolute prohibition,
-to the moat unrestrained importation. The sudden transi-
/Von from 4)ne system to another, diametrically opposite in
-i.!l character,- was .injurious, and it was therefore desirable
,to ascertain whether this could hot be altered with advantage.
lie should now move I,r those papers, which he desired to.lay
bef.n.e the House, holding himself ready to supply any further
aenianations that might be required. He wished it to be dis-
i-:7;!ly understood, drat lie agreed first that the public expen-
x:..tfre should' be zedwed so far as was consistent with the
avl:;:y of the country, and fidelity -to its engagements ;
-that where •it was possible to alleviate the pablie burdens by
;7takingloic taxes, this should be done, so that that prineitaa
11314 not abandoned by which he was determined to stand or
fail, the maintenance of public credit, and the establishment of
in.efficient Sinking Fund. He concluded by moving for the
froductioft of certain returns similar to those lately moved for
ur the•other House.

.•
The 11Iarquis of LANSDOWNE agreed with the Noble
Earl in some points ; anal he especially concurred with him in
.considcring that it was proper to connect with his statement
thAt most important feature in the present state of the country,
Cie taxation under which it laboured, and which even when
,taase reductions had taken -place which the Noble Earl
.contemplated, and which he hoped he would be enabled to
,carry into effects would amount to 50,000,0901. lie felt it
,right, after wliat,had been stated elsewhere, at public meetings,
and, indeed, after what had been stated by the Noble Earl him-
self Licit night, to give it as his opinion that the weight of taxa-
. tlun • with which the country was at present saddled, had a di-
tact bearing on She existing distress.' Ile felt it the more :le-
' „oesaa.ry to do this, as the Noble. Earl had alluded to some
fashinaable opinions on this subject.; and to him (the Marquis
•, ail' 14madowne), it appeared that it was ziaw 4o:coming the fa-
..ahlonii4e opinion in certain ()millers, that to consider taxation
ee having any connection with the distress was altogether a
vuk;ar error Some Gentlemen, fresh from their books and
:their studies of political economy, had gone so far as to contend
.at it was not only not injurious, but that its existence to sb
• Large as amount was actually a favourable circumstance in
. tne situation of the cauatry. Ile came to a very different
oanciasion, and it was.-his epinion that a reduction of taxa-
,tion was intaanarably connect-est with those measures which
were necessary to relieve the .existing distress. lie proceeded
to state the grounds on which he arrived at this result, and
.:hewed that high.t.l.Xig could not be caused by low prices. The
cure which area required in the present circumstances of the
country, and which would be worth all the specifics of the Go-
aaatninezit, was increased consumption. This however could
rat bl obtained without a reduction of taxation, and to attempt
to make the market commensurate to the produce of the coun-
try, while taxation was to be maintained to its present amount,
was to set in motion the.elements of oppasition and resistance.
,Thepresent amount of taxation was a bar to recovery from the
'ldistresa. it had been fairly stated by the Noble Earl, that a
part of the community were gainers by-the agricultural distress.
'This.he admitted to true ; but the necessity which existed.
.„faz relieviug..the suffezers has not theleas obvieus.. The Noble
Earl had also rightly stated, that the same distress, more or
ia)d. been -felt in other parts of the world., .Prance, how-
iwer, he must remark, notwithstandinE,, those proceedings which
h. 4. not escaped the retire of his Majesty's Ministers—
natwithatanding the address of the Opposition. had becn carried
pa the first day of the session, which had the eWect of turning
_out the then Government—notwithstanding this, Prance, to
those who had recently travelled in it, seemed to enjoy more
agricultural prosperity at this moment than had been known
~b.tfore in that country. This w a a most extraordinary com-
ment on thr argument, that in that country agricultural distress
could only be corrected by withdrawing a part of the lands from
cultivatiou, • Yet to night the Noble Earl had not scrupled to
argot.. that-in Eng,land the distress must be partly cured by re-
turning same 'Of the lands which had been drawn into cultivation
,tan st.tt., of nature. The distress which existed in one or two
pins of Europe might be accounted for from local causes. If
this couatry had been in the habit of consuming the grain of Po-
land , it was not extraordinary that egricultural distress should
be experieanced there for want of a m r :et fur that corn which
shairiwl been accustomed to send to England. in the North of
yratice the armies of observation hayin; been withdrawn, had
destroyed that Market which had b ,en previously enjoyed,
and it was therefore not to be wondered at if some embarrass-
ment and distress should be experienced there. He would,
however.; say no more of the causes of the distress elsewhere,
but would confine himself' to that which unhappily existed in
this country.' lie was consoled to find that the Noble Earl
opposite, thotigh somewhat at variance with his (the Marquis of
Lanadowne's) argument—though he did not admit taxation to
as the cause of the distress,-still agreed that it was desirable that
be muclataxation should he remitted as posSible. Now he (the
Marquis of Leasdowne) would content} that: it was impassible ,

thattaxation to The amount of ri0,000,0001. could he otter than
injurious to the country, and therefore great effort% ought to
be made to reduce it. The Noble Earl had alluded to several
circumstances as constituting apparently an increase of na-
tional wealth. He had told them that in whatever way they
travelled they must see large tracks of land had been brought
into cultivation which were:not in cultivation before the war.
This, he would remark, was one of the sources of the dis-
tress. The war had.airoulated the landed interest to such ex:
ertions, that the amount of agricultural produce had at length
become so great, that the country was incapable of absorbing
it. Where the amount of produce had been.this incurred, he
would say the, way to relieve agricultural distress like that'now
complained of, was not by thrOaving the land out of cultivation,
but by raising the market. Before he left this part of the .sub-
ject, he begged to oar a few remarks on the resources of the
country with respect to Ireland. There the Noble Earl had
told them, that the increase in the population appeared to
he even greater than in England. But though the increase of
population, of which the Noble Earl seemed to speak with sa-
tisfaction, was great, there was no increase in the power
of
~onsumption in that country. Instead of consuming
her produce as she ought, and as she would, if her burdens
were lighter, she was obliged to pour it into England, and de-
luge a market already glutted with its own. On this ground
he would contend that taxation ought to be remitted as far as
was practicable a and this led him to speak of the plans
now brought forward by the Government. Ile would first
speak of that which had for its object the legitimate reduction
of the interestuf.theambhc debt, and pointed to an expedient
which, in principle, was most proper to be resorted to. Hay.
ing spoken of the legitimate reduction of the interest of the
public debt, he would neat remark that another project had
been mentioned at different times, to which he would only ;O-
vert, in order to reprobate it—the diminution of the interest
by any but legitimate and lawful means ; thirdly, he would
offer a few words on what had been said by the Noble Earl of
the reductions which han taken place, and which lie seemed al-
most to think had been carried too far ; and, fourthly, he would
speak on the subject of the application of the Sinking Fund.
With respect to the first, the diniinution of the interest of the
ikational Debt, the plan proceeded according to the plan of Mr.
Pelham, and the Noble Earl thought the coarse he proposed to
take, though not quite so equitable as that of Mr. Pelham had
been, was still sound and just in principle. He could only express
sat isiketion at finding the state of the country was such as to
enable Ministers to have recourse to such a measure, and though
it would expose some individuals to considerable hardships
(Witheirt )vhich'Such..a_ measure could hardly ever be carried
into effect}, lt to be yememberedtbat to such hardships
those individuals had chosen •to r:e:spose themselves, and had,
in cenidoteretion of their being sta exposedeereceiVed a larger-
aate of interest for their money, than they would otherwise
have enjoyed. At the same time he thought that it would have
been more worthy the dignity of the country, and more worthy
of the Exchequer, if Ministers had not put on all those who
disapproved of the plan the necessity of signifying their dissent.
This was in direct opposition to what had been done by Mr.
Pelham. He could have wished the Noble Earl had not acted
an aids manner; but disapproving of this, he only objected to
the mode, and had nothing to say against the principle of the
measure. With respect to reducing the interest of the debt,
he was as ready as the Noble Earl could be to enter his most
solemn protest against eacting this, but by such means as
were recognized by existing laws. That the country might
not by possibility be placed in such a situation that this prin-
ciple could not be adhered to, he declined asserting ; hut far
was he from taking that desponding view of the state of the
country ae to believe that they were now in that situation ; anti
while they were not, on every principle of honour, on every
principle of morality, on every principle of common honesty_
they were bound to reject any advantages that might be offered
to them in connection with such a line of conduct. He hoped he
should never live to seethe day when such a proposition would
be submitted to Parliament. Should he be so unfortunate, he
trusted that he should be •found, as he was sure the Noble Earl
would, resisting, to the ,utmost of his power, the adoption of a
measure so subversive of public credit, and so subversive of
public justice. On the third subject to arhich he had proposed to
address himself, the reductions which: had taken place, their
Lordships would feel that they could not enter into the regular
discussion of them in the absence of those papers which the
Noble Earl proposed to lay before them. At present they could
not know how far they had been carried; but without evincing
a want of candour towards the Noble Earl, he could not avoid
saying, that when he remembered how often it had been con-
tended that no further reductions could be accomplished, and
recollected how individuals had been challenged to come for-
ward and point out where any thing of the kind could be ef-
fected ; alien lie remembered this, he hoped he should not be
thought deficient in charity if he said that now when the Noble
Earl had made -reductions which he thought it impossible to
make a year or two back, he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) still
doubted whether more might not be done. The vigour anti re-
solution of Parliament might carry these reductions to a still
greater extent, and considering these to be as necessary to re-
lieve the distress as an increased consumption, he entertained
a hope that a further diminution of , expense might be calcu-
lated upon as one source of relief. lie now came to speak of
the application of a Sinking Fund. On this subject it was de-
sirable that lie and the Noble Earl should distinctly understand
one another, because in many debates the Noble Earl and his
colleagues had spoken in a very equivocal and ambiguous
manner on that subject. He wished to know whether it
was meant by a Sinking Fund that they were to have a sur-
plus revenue? When lie said they had spoken ambiguously
on -this subject, he had only to refer to the papers which had
been laid on their table to prove the fact. When it had been
found convenient to hold out to the public that we had a large
S.inking Fund, then the 17,000,0001. called a Sinking Fund, had
been brought forward as if that was working wonders in the way
of reducing the National Debt, which was really doing nothing
at all. When a different course was thought wise, then they
were only told of the amount of this clear surplus revenue.—
On this subject they ought now to came to a complete under-
standing. Had they an income that was not equal to the ex-
penditure of the country, a part of which tied up in a parti-
cular way was called the Sinking Fund, or had they, an in-
come exceeding the expenditure, with the surplus of which
they might do what they pleased for the benefit of the country?
He put this as a question, but his question was already de-
cided by the • conduct pursued by the Government. That
which had been called a Sinking Fund had not hitherto been
respected by Ministers. lie dui not now atop to inquire whe-
ther they could have effected what they had done in a better
way ; but the Government had made large inroads on the
Sinking Fund. Mr. Pitt's principle had been set aside; and
the Sinking Fund had been drained on various occasions, in
war or in peace ; in prosperity or in calamity. Ile would go
back to 1813 to shew what had been done ; and that he would do
on an authority that would hare great weight every where, but
which would be especially respected by the Noble Earl—that
of Mr. El uskisson. That Hight Honourable Gentleman, in
1813, considered the Sinking Fund principle to be broken in
upon—he did all he could to oppose it—he invoked the apirit
of Mr. Pitt to defend his favourite plan, but all in vain. The
measure then brought forward was carried, and the Sinking
Fund given up to the rapacity of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer had then
said, ' though I take the Sinking Fund, and all the interest
which has been accumulating upon it under various Acts of
Parliament through the last twenty years, I do not abandon
the principle, for I now revert to the original plan, by pro.
viding for the total extinction of the debt in the next forty-five
years." But even this had now been lost sight of, and the
5,000,0001. now possessed as a Sinking Fund was no more
equal to the extinction of the debt in forty-five years than it was
to.the Usk of defraying the current expenses of the year. He
would: now inquire whether for the interest of the landholder,
with whose welfare that of the whole community was so inti-
mately blended, and for the interest of the stockholder himself,
.whose best security was to be found in the improved -state
of the country, in what way the surplus revenue -might be best
.appliel He then contended, after examining the opinions ex-
presated by Dr. Hamilton, that to keep up the machinery of a
Shaking Fund, as had been done, where there was no surplus
revenue, was preposterous, and could not impose on any one,
much less on persons so acute as the Stockholders were known
to. be. To call certain sums set apart a Sinking Fund, while
still larger sums were borrowed:to furnish them, was so absurd
that it put him in minduf the advice given by Lord Peter, in
the Tact or A Tun, to his brother, to leave off eating bread,
thought he might continue to eat as much as he pleased,
so that he did but call it mutton. Ile next proceeded to shew
that the Sinking Fund had not been the means of reducing the
rate 'of interest, but a low rate of interest would invariably re-
salt from the low profits. While the Sinking Fund amounted
to 17,000,0001., no considerations of the importance of pre-
serving public faith inviolate could save it from being touched,
nor could its integrity lie defended. by reverence for the me-
mory of Mr. Pitt, but :haying prevailed on Parliament to
•go with him in reducing it from 17,000,0001. to 5,000,0001.,
the Ministers now contended, that if they went one step further
there would be an end at once to all public faith. When
the Minister argued against him, that but little relief could
be afforded by the remission of taxes, had he not a right to
turn the tables on him, and shew how small the relief to be
hoped from the effect of the Sinking Fund, applied as it was
now intended that it should be applied ? Did the Noble Earl
think that the operation -of a Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001. in
the six }ears, which would make up with those which had al.
ready elapsed .since the conclusion of the war, what was con-
sidered the average period of peace, would afford very great
relief? Taeing the most favourable view of it, in the next six
years it would only tak d 40,000,0001. from a debt of 800,000,0001.
and it would relieve the'country from taxes to the amount of
-1400,0001. out of 50,000,0001. 'this, too, would be brought about
After Parliament had imposed, in his opinion most unadvisedly,

' new taxes to amount.of 3,000,0001. in 1017, in consequence
of which it must Se&t, that in the year 18211., should the
peace continue so- long, the country would still have to bear
more_ taxes: than -it had paid in 1318. Under these circum-
stances he would ask their Lordships, ifthey thought Parlia-
ment would do its duty in taking-off taxes but to the amount
of 1400,0001. in the next six years, from a total of 50,000,0001.
Ile conceived that the remission of four or five millions
in taxes would tend more effxtuaily to relieve the coun-
try than it could be relieved by the proposed diminu-
tion of -debt. The effect would be twofold ; as while it
• lightened the burdens of those who were now most depres-
sed, it would increase consumption. There was no saying to
what extent the consumption of the country might be increased
by such means. An impulse would be given to consumption,
which, in a very few years, by augmenting the produce of in-
, direct taxation, would probably . give a larger surplus re-
venue than was at present contemplated by Ministers, and
' leave them more at liberty to devote the whole of any future
excess of ine;,the to the extinction of debt. The proposed
loan to parishes he could not approve. This, he thought, would
produce no good effect, but on the contrary would be likely to
throw on those unfortunate parishes which availed themselves:of
the proffered aid, the difficulties with which the Government
had had to contend. It might be good to increase the circulation
so far as to bring it up to its natural level, below which he con-
sidered it to have fallen, but the circulation extended beyond
its natural limits must lead to consequences the most disastrous,
as it would force the gold out of the country, and this must
produce a re-action, which' would send it back again, but under
circumstances of great affliction and privation. It was the du! y
of Parliament to lean leniently towards the people, remember-
ing how severe were the burdens which they had to bear in conse-
quence of the recent alteration of the currency. Ile, however,
did not condemn that measure. The ,country. was in such
a state that he considered that calamitous operation to have
become necessary. The longer it was deferred the more se-
verely it must have been felt, and a metallic currency.having
been restored, he was decidedly of opinion that on no ac-
count ought the standard of_ value again to be altered. lie
wished to give the public creditor every protection to which
he was entitled, but the distresS of the country, and especially
that of the agricultural classes, demanded relief by a less pain-
ful mode than that of sending the land out of cultivation ;
this could only be supplied by increased consumption, and in-
creased consumption could only be produced by remission of
taxation:
Lord KING: adverted to the embodyin; in the resolutions
for the county of Surrey the opinion of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, with respect to the currency. and .obsetved,
that in some similar resolutions at Surrey or elsewhere; it'
Wonld lie equally curious to titled embodied the opinimis of
the i~etlaYi Earl who'olien-ed the debate, namely, that taxa-
tion was in no degree the cause of the present public dis-
tress—that the seine distress prevailed in France and.Hol,.
land, and that the best mode of redittiiiig our distress was to
reduce the rate of interest by the addition of five millions to
our fund for the discharge of the public debt.—(A laugh,
and hear, hear !)—llitt what occasion had the Noble Earl to
go to France or -Holland for equal installers of public distress
to those which prevailed in England, when he could find so
many strooget instances of that nature, namely, where t
rapacity of the Government was the cause of the distress of
the peo.ule?—(Hear,-hear!)—But this would not answer the
Noble Earl's object, as it svould be going too far. Here the
Noble Earl entered into a comparison between the produce
of the old and the new !ands umployt ti in agricoltute, oh-
, serving that the old formerly afforded considerable 'profit to
the cultivator, which he could not now derive front it, while
the new lands niti=t be cultivated at a certain loss. The
Noble Earl had endeavoured to maintain taxation had no
effect upon the agriculturiFt ; hut how could this doctrine be
held by any one who considered the operation of the excise
upon leather, soap, eindles, and other articles ch were
used by time farmers ? ,llectirring to the three priiiciples Mild
-
down lay the Noble Earl, it really appeared surprising that
the Noble Lord should maintain, Ist, That taxation teas not
the cause of the agricultural distress: 2dly, That the repeal
of taxation could afford the agrictilturists no relief:- and.
'that the rednetion of interest which would he produced
by the proposed application of hue millions would he the
hest mode of relieving them. lint the language at present
used by the Noble Eat I was pretty moch•thr same sort as that
which the House lied heard from the Noble Eat! and his cod-
leagues for several years ?tack—Somewhat altered in its shape,
or varied in its colouring, by tluise pompous pretensions and
transient absurdities which could not easily lie forgotten ;
such, fur instance, as that a superabundant population was
the cause of our feeling a superabundance of food, or
that superabundant food produced superabundant popula-
tion. For these were the preposterous propositions oeca-
siorally promulgated by Ministers themselves, and uni-
formly maintained for some years by all their journalists and
pamphleteers. But what was the cure for superabundant •
population ? Why, that many of them had been at the ex-.
pence of the state—,atan expence, indeed, greater than would
furnish them with emplovment at home, sent hoot their ne-
• .•

„..-
rive country to a foreign soil, thus transporting the snort.-
abundant people svho would serve to consume the super-
abundant food. Again, the people were said to be idle—but
whence came their idleness ? So much was taken from the
industrious poor to maintain the Government, that enough
did not remain to provide for the adequate remuneration of
the labour of the peOple.--(Hear, hear !)—Let the people
have due employment red wages, and nothing, he was fully
assured, would ever be hearut of their idleness.—(Hear, hear,
hear!)—The Noble Earl had observed that there was too
much capital in the country, and therefore he supposed the
Noble Earl proposed, by his plan, to send that capital out of
the country, as he hal already sent so much of its popula-
tion ;—but the Noble Earl was of the modern school of poli-
tical economy. He was surprised, however, to hear the
Noble Earl tell their Lordships that they should rely upon
Nature and Providence. What! to hear Noble Lords talk of
such reliance, who for =2O years haul looked to it in vain, and
who now urged t hat taxation Was no cause of the agricultural
distress, qtlthough such taxation was notoriously as lirejtidi-
ehl to agriculture; as a bad,c+oil or a bad climate.—(Hear,
hutv, hear!).-On a late propnsirtion elsewhere for the reduc-
tion of the expense of the several eiifablishments, it was most
satisfactorily demonstrated by figures, ; nit noless than five
tnillious might be struck off front the Army, the Navy, and
the Ordnance. So that here an addition might be made to
the five millions of surplus revenue mentioned by the 'Mini-
sters, the sun; of five millions more, and here then was an
opportunity of rendering solid service to the country. But
to this proposition of service, it was urged that five millions
should be added to the Sicking Fund for the redemption of
the public debt, although, to the knowledge of the present
Ministers themselves, the Sinking Fund was an utterly un-
productive and preposterous scheme. Still Ministers would
go on in it, and their perseverance implied this langnage—
“ We have already taxed you a great dual upon the plea of
paying this public debt, and if you will give us loft time, we
shall tax you more.”—(A laugh, and hear, hear!).
LORD ELLENBOROUGH could not attribute the exist-
ing distress to an excess of cultivation, as that had rather di-
minished than increased Within the last few years. In his

opinion it was the great excess of produce last year, combined
with the effect of the change in the currency. that had created
the fall in price, to which the distress was owing. Ile agreed
with the Noble Marquis near hints (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
that the great taxation under which the country laboured
contt Witted to the ilistress of the farmer as a grower; but he
could not agree with him that the reduction of five millions
of taxes would give any sensible relief to the farmer. To elu-
cidate this, he would suppose that sum to be applied as a di-
rect bounty on productions. If I hey calculated each person to
consume one quarter of wheat a-year, that would be a bounty
equal to ss. a quarter upon wheat; and it was a question,
whether the reduction of 54. upon each person would be ;t
sufficieut relief to the farmer. This was giving him the full
t'enefit of the fire millions ;."lor, if it was taken Off in taxes,
the operation of relief would he so long in reaching the quar-
ter it was intended to affect. that the benefit would be almost
lost. There had, be believed, been some scheme for lending
the farmer money till prices should cone round again ; but
that appeared to.bave totally failed. Tine present was a case
of peculiar difficulty and distress,—of a nature not only to af-
fect the interests of the agriculturist, hut actually to destroy
the independence of his mind, and give it a direction hostile
to Government. It had already settled into dissatisfaction,
and under the particular circumstances,
,he should be dispo-
sed to concur in some violent measure to put an end to the
distress. Opportunities would offer for discussing the (ies-
! tion, and he hoped all the energies of their Lordships' under-
' standings would be directed to its consideration.—(hear.)
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM disclaimed any intelition of
entering into those depths in political economy in which his
predecessors in the debate had wandered. He Mnst, how-
ever, declare his dissent from those who attributed to the
operation of taxation the d.stressed state of the agricultural
interests. That they were in a state of distress, it did tint
need any one at that time of day to tell them. But was this
the first time that particular interests of the country had
been in a sutTering condition arising front the circumstances
of the times ?—(Hear, hear')---Did they not all recollect the
distresses of the manufacturers and commercial interests a
few years ago, and what was now the state they were in
The commercial prosperity was of a most gratifying descrip-
tion in its nature and extent ; and as to the mdnufaauring
classes, they were now employed at the highest rate of wages
of the highest times. As to the causes of agrictiltnral dis-
tress, they were plainly owing to the manner in which per-
sons had been tempted to bring land into cultivation, the
continuance of which could only be justified by a conti,
nuance of that high price of wheat which induced their
cultivation.— (Hear, bear !) Instead, however, of their
cultivation being discontinued, they had been taken at

long leases, and now plunged the owners of them into
that state of distress which was the subject of com-
plaint. The Poor Laws also, it should he remembered,
hung as a burden round the neck of the landholders
which oppressed them. These. la'sva should be restored
to what they were formerly, and the poor should no longer
be treated as aounitains on the landholder. lie hoped the
Gentleman, wit b whoa) he was not personally acquainted, who
had introduced this subject to the consideration of Parlia-
ment last year, would not drop his intention of pressing
it still farther. If, asi the Noble Marquis (Landsowne)
said, taxation were the cause of the distress, it would be felt
equally in the commercial and other interests of the country
as well as agriculture-.--(Hear, hear, hear !)—lt was said by
those who took that erroneous view of the case, that the Ex-
cise duties upon soap, salt, tallow, &c. fell with peculiar
weight upon the f.:;..ner, particularly affecting the price.of the
produce of the land. Now, if it were true that the weight of
the tax affected the constimption, that which paid the highest
tax would he least used, and vice versa. Bus: it would be
found that the contrary was the case, and that, as in the in-
stance of salt and wrought iron, that which paid the best tax
was the least used. The price of consumption had not yet
reached the price of production, and until this was the case,
no material relief -would be felt by the agriculturist. But
with regard to the existing agricultural distresses, he had no
hesitation in saying that taxation had no effect whatever.
To illustrate this, he would suppose the case of a farm of 400
acres, at two guineas an acre, as to the amount of produce.
He supposed 200 acres to be laid out ;Is grass land, 134 acres
as spring vegetables, and the remaining 66 acres wheat land.
These tits act es would produce 198 ousters, which, valued at
31. a quarter, would amount to .5941. With a farm thus pro-
ductive, supposing the farmer's family to Consist of himself,
-wife, one woman servant, and three men, they would coa-
stline fifteen quarters of malt, the tax on which amounted to
121. 15s. Making a fair calculation of the quantity of articles
of every other description which such a tamily would con
some, it would he found that the total amount of taxes paid
to the Crown was 331. 4s. Of the amount of indirect taxes,
which depended on the price of labour, it was not so easy to
get at, but the best war would be to tape all the taxes which
might be considered to fall nu land, and throw them back to
the farmer. By the abolition of every tax which was paid by
the farmer to the Crown, he would only acquire an addition
of four shillings price to the quarterof wheat, and could this
he considered an adequate relief? The only remedy was for
the great landholder to do as IN; manufacturers had done
.some years ago; to prevent the farmer from lulling, by mak-
ing commaticause with him.—(Hear, hear !)—The concluding
Sentence of the Noble Duke was inaudible.
Lord DACKI4: said, he did not intend to go at length iota
the subject, but(limit lie rose merely to express the doubts he
entertained on,some points very gene' ally•adinitted, but the
admission ofwhich, if the opinion he had formed of them were
Correct, would create great delusion, and eventually much
more mischief mail any which now existed. Every Noble
Lord who had treated the subject that night had considered
the tpiestion as if an increase of the price of a.tricultoral 1.1
duce might lie infected, and as if the distress would therefore
be but temporary. Ile by DO means understood how that
conclusion had been arrived at. The Noble Earl opposite be-
gan his luminous exposition by stating, that there bad been
a great increase of population; which statement, however,
Ire immediately followed up by another, that there was a si-
perahundance of food in the country. The increase of the po•
iodation from 1801 to the present time, the Noble Earl tom
stated to he four millions. He (Lord Daerr) would estimate
the increase from 1791 to 1801 at one million. This would
make a total increase since 1791 ot five millions in the Paul-
l:aims. Now, really, he could not miderstand how any well-
iiiforined person could conceive, that the increase since 1791,
rut the corn produced in the country, had been more than ade-
quate to the increase in the population. Undoubtedly, there
had been numerous inclosures of late years, but in many of
them the effect had been to convert arable load into ilaSl
Comparing the present period with 1791, he could see no
reason why the prices at present should he so far higher than
at that period. Tittle most be some relative price which
every article would naturally bear with reference to others.
That natmad price must depend urn the quantity of circuits-
thigniedium afloat, and the quantity of the article represent-
ed by it—directly as the former, inversely as the latter. Now,
he was not aware that there was a great numerical did*, name
in the circulating medium now from the year 1791. In 1791
there were about thirty millions of guineas, and about eight
millions of bank paper in circulation. At present there were
twenty millions of batik notes, and seem) or eight millions of
sovereigns, in circuLttion, besides the cottutry bank paper,
the amount of which he could not exactly ascertain; uu.the
whole, he had nun reason to believe that there was much dif-
ference between the amount of circulating medium it) circu-
lation in 1821, and the amount at present. It was tint fair,
however, to add, that he was unable to calculate the power
of the circulating medium at present, as it depended not on-
ly on the numerical amount, but on the velotity of its opera-
tion, multiiilied into one another. ASSU tiling. that the velocity
was infinitely greater than in 1791, still it twist be considered
that. it had to produce an infinitely greater effect since the mass
of commodities on which it was to operate was so much larger.
Not believing that more rood was produced at present than
was necessary to meet the increase of population, he thought
it was to mislead the country to hold out any expectation of
future high prices. Ile believed the present prices were not
far from being the fair, correct, natural prices. If he vatted
a confirmation of this opinion, lie could find it in the fact that
the price of several articles, the 1-reduce or which had not
increased, such as the under wood of copses, skins, &c. had
varied with the price of corn, and tallied with the 'eduction
of the circulating medium. A great deal of the existing evil
lie attributed to Parliament having disregarded the advice of
his Noble Friend,• and voted that a pound note and a shilling
were equivalent to a guinea. In that absurdity the country
acquiesced; ttk. debt increased, and on relurnirg to cash
payments they found themselves with 30 millions more taxa.

thin than in 1791. He was very far from recommending any
such fraudulent measure as to recur to an artificial cola-
tioon.—The only way was to meet our dilliculties, and to look
them in the face, and not to excite hopes in the agriculturist
which . must c and in disappointment. He could not concur
with the Noble Duke in considering the agricultural interest
to be at present precisely in the satire condition as the com-
mercial and manufacturing interests fotrinetly Art re. Nor
would be advance tine shilling to the fortiori- in the way of
loan; for this reason :—the nianufacto ler could at pleasure
raise the price of his commodity He suspending the produc-
tion of it ; and the maintenance of his machinery cost hum
nothing: not so the farmer, he must go on; and he was bound
by the poor laws, as well as by humanity and benevolence,
to maintaio any population that might be thrown on him.—
For another reason, lie thought the VI csent the natural
prices; because, although the latter was an abundant harvest
in point of quantity, be sits informed that the deficiency of
quality so reduced the quantity of the meal, that it was no
more than au average crop. If in all the southern parts of
the kingdom the cross had been of a good quality, the average
price of the best wheat would probably nut have exceeded at
this moment 4s. a bushel. In his opinion, no relief cooild be
afforded to the agriculturist but by reducing lois expenditure.
He did not mean to say that taxation must necessarily dimi-
nish the price of corn. Taxation might press so heavily on
the fanner as to force him prematurely to market ; but then
the public would not benefit ; for the. corn would fall into the
hands of some speculator, who would raise the general pt ice.
But although taxation did not lower the price of corn, it pre-
cluded the agriculturist from as-ailing himself of cheap labour
in its production. It was necessary to him, eitlier that the price
of corn should be increased or the price of labour diminished.,
He did not Mean to follow the Noble Duke (of Bllchingllam)
in Ike calculations into which he had entered. But of this he
could assure the Noble Duke and their Lordsh'ps, that ,the
pressure of the -taxes on Salt, Soap; Leather, and candles,
'Amounted to 35.6 d. per acre on arable land.—(Hear.)—This he
was ready to prove at any time to any gentleman who applied
to him. Now if this additional burden of 3c. 6(1. was reduced,
it would afford considerable relief to the occupiers of land.—
His Lordship,. in ;Alluding to the taxes upon Salt, Leather,
&c. which- might, and which, in his opinion, sought to he
reduced, observed, that he had been anticipated by the
speech of the Noble Lord under him, (Lord Lansolown,)
speech which plated before 'the House such a view of the
situation of the country as would not be easily effaced front
the minds of their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.)—After such a
speech, he did not feel himself at liberty to trespass further
upon the attention of the House thanao caution them against
the idea that increased prices were the only remedy for taxa-
tion. The only remedies to which the agriculturist load to
look for relief were, a reduction of taxation and a diminution
iu the cost of production. -
The Duke of MUCKINGHANI shot-fly explained.
The Earl of HARROWBY next addressed their Lordships,
but in so low a-toue as to be inaudible below the iktr for the

greatei part of his speech. His Lordship was understood to con-
tend, that agreat portion of the distresses of the agriculturists
rose from abundant harvests and from the imports of wheat
from Ireland. There was also another greirt pressing cause of
distress to the agricultut ists,-he meant the reduction of paper
,circulation of the country bomb. In 1815, the circulation of
country paper was 15,000,0001.; in 1816, it was 15,500,0001. ;
in 1817, it was 16,000,0001. i in 1619, it was 1i;,500,0001... but
in 1820 it had fallen, to 11,000,0001., and last year it was no
more than 7,000,0001. Adding this to the restricted issues
of the Bank of England, would, their Lordships must per-
ceive, be more than sufficient to reduce the farmer to his pre-
sent standard. Besides, there was another great cause of
distress. The farmer did not in the hour of prosperity econo-
mise as he might have done--4e indulged during the war in a
wasteful and thoughtless expenditure, witliput einigidering
that the day of reckoning and sif retribution must come, and

that a period must be put to those high prices and ready mar•
kets which a state of warfare had necessarily opened to him.
l'he Noble Lord next proceeded to defend the Sinking Fund,
and contended that any attempt to reduce or do away with
that great bulwark of public security, would only tend to
weaken, if not altogether destroy, public confidence and pub-
lic credit.

i

Lord REDESDALE thought it was.clearly proved that the
taxes fell heavier on the farmer than on any other class.--
The Noble and Learned Lord contended, that the glut in the
markets of agricultural produce, was not the consequence Of
over production ; but it arose Irmo. the necessity which com-
pelled the farmer to bring his produce into the market with-
out the usual delay. He was convinced that the present dis-
tress arose from causes of a temporary nature, and that the
natural course of things would remove them. Ile thought
the case of the farmer to be similar to that of the person who
being ill, called in a number of doctors, who all fell to quar-
relling about the remedies to be applied for his cure. At last
their words got so high, that the patient ordered his servant
to turn thetwall out of doors, and the doctors being gone, he
very soon recovered. • •

The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the House ad-
journed at .ELEVEN O'CLOCK.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hours, and Gnd'
inu only thirty-five Members present, adjourned the House

to this day.