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London, England, 1831-04-22 00:00:00

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r,.l„d a fp.,,t limn, apei to he p
1N mu • OF(ter I)ay tdl
tn, I.etillart of-I\lr. Liar•on,.. lie had
• rtrollected Oa; eon-
• 1. t) ;).t..vc.t nece,bity of its being

again read. A n ore proper petition it had nev.2r fallen
to his lot to present under similar. circumstances. • After
:the understanding, or something very analogous, which
ltad been come to last night, -.be •did not apprehend any
great difficulty would occur in agreeinz to his motion the
elle petitioner be reprimanded and discharged. rH hoped
tite:r Lords.hips would.niat atotc.their - minds to be pretu-
tiitted by the demur of the-petitioner to answer the question
put to him. He hoped they would not think him coritu-
macious on this account, for it was one of the resultswhich
-they eould-norbrat-have foreseen • when they resolved upon
going into this matter. The question lo which he alluded
to who wt., the author . of the article, was one
-which- a Court of Justice would not ank of-a defendan-.
The Attorney-General or Counsel might ask such a cpes-
tiott of a witness, hut the Court could not ask it of the
party himself implicated. . To inflict a severe punishment
on that account would be to emulate the impFoper, cm,
trutt of a Judge who changed a Fentence of seven years
transportation to one of fturteen years, in consequence of
a remark made by the prisoner. 'Their Lordships would
have despised the petitioner if he had answered the question.
He moved that Mr. Lawson be calle I to tl,e bar, repri-
manded, and iischarged upon payment of his fees.
The. Earl of MANSFIELD moved that stt angers should
be ordered to withdraw. - _ . _

The Marquis of *LONDONDERRY hoped that as
strangers wile allowed to be present yesterday, they would
not be exeloded upon this occasion.
The Earl of 'ELDON made an observation which was
inaudible below the bar. • -
_ . • • _

The LORD CHANCELLOR, in reply to the Noble
Earl's observation, -said that if his Noble and Learned
Friend's statement were true, he (the Load Chancellor)
should he exceedingly glad to avail himself of it ; for his
Noble Friend Vil9 well aware that whatever advantages
might he atr::clied to the. possession of the Gieat Seal, the
nrcesity of constantly sitting on •the Woolsack was not
on, of them. _

S..rargerti were then excluded. After an aipenoe of
two hcms and a half, from twenty minutes to seven to
nine o'clock, we were re-admitted.
THE REPRIMAND.

Mr. Lawson was then. called to the bar, and repri-
manded by the Conn CHANCELLOR in the Mowing terms:

" Jahn Josoph Lawson, the publicition of which you
have confessed yourself to he the printer and puldishe-,
has been pronounced by the unanimous vote of theirLerd-
ships to be a gross and scandalous lib,l upon Edmund
IlenrY Earl Limerick, a Member of this House, and
ahio'a high breirch of the privileges of the House itself.
The privileges of this Hoise have b;en conferrinrupon it
by the Constitut:qn of the country, and recognised most
amply in ail times by the law of the land ; and they are
p,:sscsse,4 by tiiis House nut for the ben-fit hf individual
Members, rot for the aggrandisement and power of the
Alembtls collectively, but for the protection and defence
,of this Assembly in the discharge of those high func-
tions; which, for the benefit of the State, the Constitu-
tion has conferred upon it. It would be a strange thing,
indeed, if the privileges which are possessed not only
by the other and infe,ior branch of the L'gislaturr,
hot by every Ctiurt of the r: alm, should be denied by
the Constitution, either by pol:cy or justice, to this illus
trice assembly, which contains within itself the highest
functions of judicature and the highest legislative powers,
he fore:tinn, of counselling the Crown, enacting laws of
he realm,- and of deciding; isl the last resort, without v-
eal, all causes, civil as well as criminal. Those high
those great duties, and those large powers, are
this assembly; and in order thrt it may exer-
them, and that the country rosy through them, de-
bezielit which it was intended it shon1:1, it is ne-
that the privileges of this Hone should remain un-
and entire.- No man who has read thescanda-
h }-ou have pu:)lishrd avd priotkl can doubt
f the unanimous j0,12m,--nt which this House

It is thCrefore nAtesstry that the House
should deal with you r.s so grave an offccee demands, to
the-end that you may be deterred by punishment from a
r, petit:on of the t &nee; arid for the se and reason which
is the end of all punishment, that others may be deterred
also. But the House is wiling to temper justice with
mr:ey, and it has Lken into consideration the mitigating
circumstances of your ease: You have freely confessed
your guilt, not only as to the fact ofynur being the printer,
but that you are guilty in point of law a 9 well as
_substance,
beeause you' have expressed, your sorrow for the offence.
You have Made an apol-yy which has been taken into con-
si imation by this House, as well as the close imprisonment
you have stiff, red by the authority of the House. For these
reasons, anti from a tlesire to temper justice with mercy,
theie Lordships have thought fit to direct me to execute-
tilt 1:1,1:inf0 duty which I am now-discharging by directing
me- to reprimand you, and that you -he forthwith disch ,rged
ont ~f custody upon payment of the fees."

Mr. LaW,,On then bowed and retired•with the officer.
it was thrn ordered that the reprimand should be en,

tcrd upon the. journal R.

. -., CIVIL LIST.
Lord -WFIAIINCLIFFE called the attention of their
LordshiliS to, an omission which had occurred with regard
to this Bill. It was the understood practice of the Con-
stitution that any interference by Parliament with the he-
reditary revenues of. the Crown should receive the specific
consent of his M..jesty in the first instance. The Bill
;which they had passed was not that to which-his Majesty
.had.given inch , consent,, because a new Xdministration
had intervened, end the arrangement to which they had
given effect' was (Efferent from . that which had been
brought forward by their predecessors. He did not know

bether the final censent of his Majesty At;ould remedy
.:.; defect; Lilt even if it-did, tbry would still be under
t • • .::catty that tri,ny Peers had voted under -the impres-
• . ,u: :h consent had ben. previously given.
.He
•. . .: • i.;'ow what ceurse bis.Mojesty's Ministers would
iti difficulty. •

The Duke of 111:CHMOND regretted that the Noble
Lord had not given notice of his intention to put his goes-

, the other illinistas of the Clown hart hft the
and he (lid pot feel hiinself competent to give an
on so important a subject without. consideration.

Lola WHARisICLIFFE said he would bring the subject
f.rwaid to -mw row: It appeared to him that a gross mis-
t:lee had bean committed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON- obsetved that there was
no d:o an unfortunate: mistake had been committed.
The Civil List Bill had made a complete alteration in the
Government-of toe country; end his Majesty's assent
ought to have been given, according to
.all precedent, and
according toll:re sdirit of the Constitution. Soule notice
at oil events of this omission ought to be noticed on their
jilt mils. • •
The LORD .CHANCELLOR.thought it material that
tie oversight should be rectified on their journds. If he
answerable for'it; it was through inadvertency and.a
want of knowledge of the peculiarities of their Lordships'
!..ractice. In Ow other House the petition relatiez to the
revenues ot the Crown requited-the as,ent of . the Crown,
• but no'.-if it were introduced by a Minister ;it was then
taken 'for granted.

After a few words fioin Lord BEXLEY, it was ordered
that the ,-ntry 111)( n their Lordship' journals of the month
of iolay, lE.o,.re.latio,!_-;•to the Hereditary Ilevemies of the
Crown, rho,,ild be taken into consideration to-morrow.

Tile LOUD CHANCELLOR -presented eighteen
tions in favour t:f Pariiarnentary Reform, . front Halifax,
l',rth, and various other places, making seventy petitions
in all whicii thc• Ndile and Learned Lord Lad presented

on thi:t day,
Several B:lk were forwarded a stage, and the House
aJjourned at liaif-past Nine till to'-inorrow.

HOUSE OF C0.11310.2175,ErL 21.
On aiseount of there being a .baliot t n the'Knaresbu-
r-u'gih election petition; the gallery wio no; open till.tive
t.'clock. The body of ti:e house and side galltries were
crowdol with rtleinheri, and when the doors tt ere open

rl:e insh of strangers was as great, if 11(4 greater, than we
c;er witnesix(l Qn any former occasion.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Mr. Justice Pirrisort ,:nd Mr. Justice ALDERSON.arI••
nottr.ced that the House of Lords had agreed to the Civil
List 13i.1 ,vitliont amendment. . .

Mr. GUEST • postponcd, his motion which stood for

::„ht diy se'nni-ght.
Nit.. Alilerm:in -WOOD postponed his motion which
3d f. r to-night as he expected a dissolution would
riy take p!::ce..l—(llear, bear.)

ITONVER'S DIVORCE BILL.
«•c^t til:ou7h

. .. -
Mr. II UM F. would tai,e that oppoitunity of atikti.og
tiot h -imp,d if a Reformed PArliameat was al:cut to ta4e
place, the Reform would extend to CAbeil as that last,
A more complete farce never was acted,
lictile on the'
hear.) .- .
kfror solianinbservatious f;•otri Lord F..osuoiticE
the report of the Cozianitt!.,e was ordere'i

111;:', I'lo

in,titu-

--( lie

iye ircalycd tc-morrow.
tiOROUGH OF LIVERPOOL.
Mr. P.ENLTI said lit: hal to 'st;h:oit a motion
t., the House re-pectin:; the corrupt state of the borougii.
;f Lit-r.!rp af, prol he thought it was only necess:aT for him
o refa to tise evideure to sr.‘"iiyort that rcsolstioO. After it
had hero wi-iplp'l, it was his intention to bring hr a lilt
1.-o'f...ineittl the repre.,:entation. of Litrerpool,,L7(llctu-, Leal.)
The corruption that town was of the • inq.4 glaring cha7
raettr, and he helreved it priheipally existed in:tite
c,latist,s. The corruption, however, hail reactiod that

height that it was necessary something should he done for
the honour of the town, and for the honour of Parliament.
Something must he done to prevent an occurrence of a si
Jar nature. He, however, should now merely move t' e
resolution, and if it was carried, he should then
move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the
representation of the borongh of Liverpool. The
Hon. Member LI en read the " resolution, which vt as
as fellows :—" That it is the opinion of this House
the system of bribery and corruption in the election of
Me-nber. of Parliament fur Liverpool demands the atten-
tion of this House."

General GASCOYNE utterly denied the charge of cor-
ruption. if ever there was a spot in the world free from
it, it was Liverpool.—(Loud laughter.) It would be well,
if the Hon. Meorher, before he censured the borough of
Liverpool, would look into the county of Wilts, and see'
if there uas not a representative of that county who had
tnorteaged his esoares.—(Loud cries of " Order.")
The SPEAKER was sure such expressions must have
escaped unintentionally from the lips of the Hon. and.
Gallatat MeMber.

General GASCOYNE bad not meant to apply the re-
mask to any particular Member. If there was an Hon.
Member in that House who represented a popular place,
and could lay his hand upon his heart and say he had
never bought a vote, he was that man.—( Hear, hear.)
He hail represented the borough of Liverpool for thirty-
hive years, and he had, so help him God, never upon any
occasions been guilty of any kind of corruption.—(Hear.)
He had been returned for Liverpool without even entreaty
or asking on his part ; and he had received evidences be-
yond number of the satisfaction which his constituents felt
in the connection. He had received more pieces of plate
as presents from Liverpool, in consequence of his conduct
as a Member of that House, than he liked to boast of, and
he had been thanked by the votes of his constituency a great
many titres. He contended that the boroughs of Liverpool
was not corrupt, and there were many Hon. Members of
that House, who had been the friends of the late Mr.:
Canning and Mr. HuskisSon, who, while those Statesmen
were living, would have supported the same view, however
they might conduct themselves upon this 0cca5i0n.........
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Wiltshire had no
just ground for his resolution. There was but one witness
who had given'evidence before the Committee, even to his
belief of bribery having been practised for a number of
years,, and at different elections for Liverpool. This was
the amount of the evidence upon which the House was
called to agree to the resolution before it. Why, such a
proceeding was worse than the Reform Bill.—(Hear,
hear, hear, and laughter ) The party by whom he
had been returned to that House for so many years had
taken no part in the late electron ; they did not subscribe
one shilling towards, and had nothing to do with it.
Every one who knew any thing of him knew that be was a
younger brother ; and from that circumstance, even if he
.had the will, he had not the means to practice frequent and
gross corruption. '1 he charge contained in the resolution
was utterly unfourchal. He did not speak of the late elec-
tion.—.((tear, hear. )—Of that he knew nothing ; but he
.spoke of the general system pursued at elections at Liver-
pool, and doing so he positively affirmed that there was no
foundation fur the resolution.—(Hear, hear.)—He de-
clared before Heaven that his elections had never cost him
a shilling, and after that declaration, if it were not true,
with, what face could he ever enter Liverpool? There
was a desire and a strong one to take from the lower order
of voters in Liverpool the elective franchise—(Hear)—but
to such a proceeding he never would consent. He had
received innumerable and unporehased kindnesses from
that body, and while he had a voice to raise it should be
elerted in support of their rights.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
His family had long been connected with Liverpool, even
as long ago as the times of Cromwell and of Charles; and
he had no apprehension that that connection would be dis-
continued even if the reform 8.11 were to pass. He did
not wish to detain the House lon4er, and he shatad con-
clude by observing that he wou'd not object to the resolu.
tion if it was confined to the last election.

Mr. J. WOOD said he entirely acquitted the Gallant
General of any practices of corruption, or any privity to
such practices, but he pledged himself to prove certain
facts with respect to that boroogb. The Gallant General
had, during the Last week. given proofa that he was too
able a tactician—(litar, bear)—to be concerned in any
such proceedings, cr to have any knowledge of their de-
tails. He, however, could prove that gross corruption
had existed in Liverpool. Some years ago he had pre-
sented a document both to the Gallant General and the
late, Mr. Huskisson, setting forth the sums which had
been subscribed for supporting the Gallant General and
Mr. Huski,son, and also the favours in the way of pa-
tronage the subscribers had received. Upon that docu-
ment he had contend, d, and would contend, that a party
in Liverpool had conducted the elections fur their own
personal and pecuniary advantage.—(Hear, hear.) His
statement bad bees called in question by an anonymous '
Writer in a newspaper, but he maintained its accuracy,
and would he again ready to hand it to the Gallant Ge-
rerah—(Hear.) Nor was that all ; for Mr. E. Rushton,
a (tient! of his, had upon the hustings stated a case in
which the• ext enters of a person who had subscribed a
certain sum to the Election Ognimittee and who had
not received the promist,' share of patronage for
that sure, had compelled the Committee to return the
sum Suhscribed.—(Loud cheers.) Then how were Mr.
Canning's election expenses p id at Liverpool? Why, upon
the same principle. For instance, 30,0001. was subscribed.
and each subscriber was to receive a henefit proportioned to
the sum he had given. An elector be knew had been re•
quested to subscribe, and on his refusing he was asked if
he did not approve of Mr. Canning's principles? He re-
plied that he did but that he would not subscribe, for if
he subscribed 1001. he should merely be invited to a dinner
and eivily shaken by.the hand by Mr. Canning in return,
and that he had no wish to purchase a dinner and such
civilities at such a price; and that as to subscribing a
larger sum, as 5001. or 10001., which would entitle him
to a share Of patronage, he should not do so, for he had
no poor relation's to serve.—(Laughter.) Then with re-
•speet to the instructions Mr. Cunning's Committee gave
concerning the out-voters. The Committee said to their
agents, " Go to Manchester, make no bargains with a
view to getting the votes cheap, but find out what the
other side have offered, and do you give 11. more,"—
(Hear, and a laugh.) This was the fact ; and he could
prove that upwards of 90,0001 had been spent during the
last twenty years (as we understood the Hon. Member) in
bribing and corrupting the out-voters of Liverpool. This
was a most disgraceful practice, and a most injurious one,
as it affected the representation of the country. But theme
was' another point of view in which the House ought. to
look at it. The election of Magistrates was earried on in
the same shameful way. In order to get elected Mayor of
.Liverpool a candidate was compelled to pay from 6,000/.
to 10,0001. The House should remember that a person
once Mayor became a Magistrate for life ; and although
he did nut mean to say that the Magistracy of Liverpool
had misconducted themselves, be would contend it was
not fitting that the peace and controul of such a town
should be left in the hands of men who had procured
their power by such means.—(Hear, hear.) The House
wee, in his opinion, bound to take notice of the matter,
not merely ftom a regard to its own purity—for that he
I considered as a farce, but horn a regard for the parity of
justice. - He would no longer detain the House but just to
observe, that he vet ily believed the statements he had made
to'be trile, and also that the truly mespectable inhabitants
of Liverpool -would rather see that town deprived of the
elective franchise altogether, than see it abused in the way
it was at present.—(Hear.)

The girl of SEFTON said, having been personally ap-
pealed to by tke lion. and Gallant General, he requested
the indulgence of the House for a very brief period. In
reply to the question put by the Hon. and Gallant Gene-
ral, he had to state that he knew, upon his own know.
ledge —and he spoke not of the last election, but of °the!,
—that the grossei4 corruption was practised at Liverpool.
—(flear, hear.) When the present Lord Chancellor and
Mr. Creevey stood against Mr. Canning and the Gallant
General, he (the Earl of Sefton) took a very active part
in behalf of his friends, anti in consequence of his so doily
he was called as a witness before a Committee of that
House. lie then stated what he knew, and he must now
repeat that the Hon. and Gallant General did on the bus-
tin!;s, jocosely alluding to the non-payment of the election
bid; of his (the Eirl of Sefton's) friends, say, " My elec-
tion expenses are paid every morn:ng."—(A laugh.)
Mr. CLADSTONE made some observations, but was
vary indistinctly heard in the gallery. We understood
the Hon. Member to say that he did not rise for the pur-
PcWe of dei.entliP" the conduct pursued at the last election
at Liverpool : but a most unwarrantable attack had been
made by the lion. Member for P.oton npon'thosp. whom
be revered, and lie felt himself bi and to rise in their de-
feace. lie denied the correctness of the Hon. Member's
(Mr. J. Wood's) .statement. Ti e system which that
floor. Member bad detailed never did exist with Mr. can-
ning's friends.—(Hear.) It was true that applications
fur vita onage wete sighed by the Committee before they
Were acted upon by Mr. Canning, but it was not true
that .111 r. Cinaing had ever given authority to that Com-
mittee to dispose of his patronage. The money that was
subscribed for the support of Mr.
.Canning as a candidate
'for .Liverpool was subscribed from honourable inntives,
atitrdid credit to those who subscribed it. He would tell
khe Noble who spoke last: that if corruption did
exist at 'former elections, it was his (the Noble Lord's)
friends, and those of the Noble and Learned Lord who

now occupied the woolsack.—(Hear, hear) This v
the truth, and the only mark of gratitude the electors of
Liverpool now received from the Noble Lards for the
20,000/. they had subscribed, was to be attacked anal
held out as corrupt. It was true that a very considerable
portion of the expenses at the election when Mr. Brougham
watt a candidate were still unpaid.
Mr. J. Woon explained.
Mr. C. WOOD said that having Veen one of the elec-
tion Committee he could net sit still without contradict-
ing the statement of the Hon. and Gallant General,
namely, that the report of the Committee was authorised
only by the evidence of one witness. The contrary was
the fact, and he was sure that every Member of the Com-
mittee would declare himself to the same effect, if his
opinion was called for by the House. He did not meat,
to say that the Gallant General had ever spent one far-
thing in election expenses in the town of Liverpool ; but
then it was not proved in evidence that Mr. Ewart had
ever spent a farthing in such a manner.—(Hear.)—The
question was between the Gallant General and a Com-
mittee of that House, acting upon their oaths.
Sir R. PEEL said he was extremely sorry the subject
had been brought forwaffi at sucss time—(Hear, hear)—
a moment when there was great excitement with reference
to another and snore important question. He most de-
cidedly considered that some inquiry was necessary, but he
was also of opinion that the House was not in a fit dispo-
sition at the present moment to make such an inquiry as
would justify its coining to the resolution proposed.—
(Hear.) Why, he asked, was the resolution at variance
with the report of the Committee ?—(Hear, hear.) The
Commit se had reported that gross corruption and treating
took place at the last electiw of a burgess to serve in Par-
liament for the horongh of Liverpool. He had read the
evidence, and he was prepared to vote for the confirma-
tion of that report.—(H••ar, hear.) But why, I.e asked,
did the resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for
Wiltshire differ from it ?--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. J. WOOD explained.
Sir R. PEEL said, in allusion to something that had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Preston, and was not
heard in the gallery, that if a case of gross, systematic,
and continued corruption could be proved against the
nut-voters, he would unhesitatingly vote for their dis-
franchisement.—(Hear, hear.)

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be
fully concurred in the suggestions made by the Right Hon.
Baronet, and he hoped his Hon. Friend would content
himself with moving the confirmation of the Report of
the Committee.

Mr. IIENETT said he had no objection to do so, for
his purpose would be effected by such a course. He would
not reply to the invidious observations which had been
made by the Hon. and Gallant General, but he must say
that of all the money be had spent in elections in Wilt-
shire, not one shilling had been applied to dishonest or
dishonourable practices.—(Hear, bear.) He should like
to knew if the Hon. and Gallant General would rise in
his place and assert as much on the part of his Committee
in Liverpool.

The HON. MEMBER. was about to amend his resolu-
tion, when the SPEAKEtt suggested to him that the CUM-
tomary course was to move that the Report of the Com-
mittee be confirmed. The Riport of the Committee was
then read. It was to the effect that gross bribery and
treating had taken place at the late election of a burgess to
serve in Parliament for the rtbrough of Liverpool.

Me. BENETT moved that the Report lie confirmed.
DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT.

Sir R. VYVYAN—Considering the state of ex-
citement of the House, owing to the reports ciculated
in public during the last twenty-four hours, that a
dissolution of the present Parliament was to take place,
which may or may not be true, in consequence of our de-
ciding—( !fear, hear, ft om the Opposition)—that the num-
bers of this House still are to be kept up—the Members re-
turned by the Protestant part of Eugland —it is of the utmost
importance for us to know whether we are really to be
dissolved, and sent back to our Protestant constituents or
not.---(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It is of the highest
importance for us to know whether his Majesty is
determined for the first time in the annals of tho-history
in this country, to come down and dissolve Parliament,
because his Majesty's Ministers have come forward with
a plan for the total subver-ion and entire destruction of
the foundation of the Constitution, and because the House
of Commons have determined not to consent to the plan,
so far as it goes to reduce the number of English
representatives. I do not know for what reason it
is his Majesty's iiiiiiisters have made this the ground of a
dissolution. I know that I had not the slightest idea of
voting on the late occasion for the purpose of throwing
out the Bill in that way. The Bill having been carried
in the second reading by a majority of even one, ought to
}nitre been discussed in Committee; and I should certainly
have supposed that the question upon the clause for
disfranchising the numerous boroughs that have
bees alluded to, would have been the question in which
the fete of the Bill would have been decided. I
believe Lie Majesty's 'linistets, in their desperate condi-
tion—(Loud cheers from the Oppcsition)—have resorted
to this step for the purpose of exciting the people through-
out the United Kingdom—(Hear, hear)—and I only hope
that they themselves, and their gracious Sovereign may not
have to look back to this as the first great blow struck in
destruction of the monarchy of this country. The ques-
tion I now put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is,
whether it is the intention of big Majesty's Ministers to
proceed with the Bill, or whether they mean to advise the
King to dissolve Parliament, because they have not got
the House to consent to the reduction of the number of
representatives ?
Lord ALTHORP—I have no hesitation in saying, in
answer to the question put by the Hon. Baronet, that
having taken into consideration the necessary consequences,
and the necessary effects of the division which took
place the other night, it is not, the intention of his
Majesty's Government to proceed with the Bill.—(Deaf.
ening cries of " Hear, hear.") Ido not consider that it
would be consistent with my duty to answer the question
I further.

A Mx2,ll3Ut, whose same we could not learn, made a
few observations, but such was the confusion of the House,
and such was the noise occasioned by many of the Hon.
Members suddenly quitting the House, that we were un-
able to ascertain their tendency.

Colonel DAVIES, as the friend of Reform, expressed
his regret at the course pursued by his Majesty's Ministers.
He dui not think that the cause of Reform would be ad-
vanced by a dissolution of Parliament. It was most un-
fortunate that they had staked the fate of the Bill upon
that particular question, on which there might perhaps
be found a very general feeling in the country in conso-
nance to the decision of the House. In his opinion they
should go on with the Bill, and get as much of it adopted
:is they could. At present not a single borough was di,-
franchiged ; but if they had succeeded in obtaining even a
tithe of the measure, they might then have gone to the
people with greater advantage.

Mr. DUNCOMBE confirmed the statement of the
Hon. Member for Cornwall that neither the Hon. Mem-
ber nor himself voted the other night fur the amendment
If the Hon. and Gallant Member for Liverpool, with any
view of getting rid of the Bill. Their only object was to
get rid of the proposition for redtteing the number of
English representatives. They did not conceive that, by
voting for that amendment, they precluded themselves
from adopting such parts of the Bill as they might con-
sider beneficial to the country. He considered that an
awful responsibility would rest upon the heads of the Mi-
nistry, if they dissolved Parliament in the present excited
state of the public mind.
Mr. PORTMAN thought the Ministers had done wisely
in not proceeding farther with this Bill. If the dissolu-
tion should take place, the question of Reform would be
placed in the rands of the people, and it would be for them
to decide it as they thought proper.
Colonel SIBTHORPE praised the conduct of the Gal-
lant Member for Liverpool ; and in reference to the ques-
tion actually before the House, remarked that subscrip-
tions had been made to ensure the return of his Gallant
Friend (Gascoyne) for Liverpool ; and argued that this
proved the confidence with which he was regarded by his
constituents, and their gratitude for his services. He re-
marked, at the same time, that subscriptions were got up
by a body called the Political Union, for very different
purposes. They were entered into to oppose those Members
who had done their duty by endeavouring to maintain the
Constitution. For himself; he would stand or fall by the
independent conduct which he had always pursued ; and
if Government hereafter gave no more satisfaction by their
measures than they had hitherto dune, he would never wish
to see them again.
Mr. ROBINSON thought Government had done wisely
in abandoqink the Bill for the preept—and considered it
a strange thing that lion. Members who bad been the
principal opponents to the Bill, should charge the Minis-
ters with imprudence in abandoning it when they had the
decision of last night against thefts. He considered that
the men who voted with the Gallant General were, gene-
rallylu t arys pßeeafkoirning,l
ue
cenemiesr
Reform
f unit Reform.—peoa
pt l
el earsetqoufi
raeldl
—a a
Re fo flu which would give them not a nominal influence—
hut their legitiMate'influence in the State. He could nct
repeat the Hon: Member foe• Liverpool's resolution whirl.
Ire had just read—and this not until after the vote upoii
the Gallant General's motion. That this resolution con-
sisted simply of a string of st,ague truisms, and after it was

carried the Hon. Member might have brought in a Bill
giving any c.neeieq of Morn', or no Reform whatsoever.
Sir R. VYVYAN explained.
. .

Lord MORPETH said, that if the Ministry had de-
termined on a dissolution, their determination showed their
wisdom and spirit. As to the point of difference between
him and the Hon. Member (Mr. W. Duneombe), he would
not shrink from the decision of the country.
Sir C. FORBES congratulated the House upon Mi-
nisters haring duandoned their Revolutionary Bill—
(Hear and laughter)—and, as for a dissolution, he could
not believe that Ministers would dare to recommend it to
his Majesty; or that even if they did, his Majesty had not
sufficient sense and prudence to resist and refuse that re-
commendation.—(Order, order.) If Government should
resign it would give bin great pleasure; for, although he
r spected individuals belonging to it, he could not respect
those who composed it as a body. But that they would
resign was what he feared the country could nut expect.
They had been too long looking and struggling for place
and power to give them up quietly.—(Hear.) They
might be defeated on every measure—and, indeed, they
were defeated on every measure, except the tax on steam-
boats, which was the only thing which remained, upon
which they could be defeated.—(Loud laughter, and
cheers.) They would not, however, resign—they would
p-rtinaciously cling to office to the last possib'e moment.
—( Hear, bear, and continued laughter.) As Mr. Canning
said of another Whig Mini try—when they were driven
from the ship, they would take to the boat—and when
they were flung overboard from the boat, they would
cling to the oir.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. HART DAVIS likewise congratulated the House
and the country upon the withdrawal of the Bill. He was
not afraid to meet his constituents in consequence of the
votes he had given.
Lord VALLETORT observed, that the Noble Lord
opposite (Morpeth) had said the determination of Ministers
to dissolve Parliament would show wisdom and spirit. He
strongly denied the first proposition.; and as for the second,
if desperate courage, reckless blindness, and total disregard
of cons quences to those over whom they unfortunately
ruled was spirit, this was spirit. He asked if this question
of Reform was a question to be decided by the country
while in such a state of excitement ? Certainly not ; but
the Ministry felt'that their Bill was one which could only
be approved by the country while in such a state of excite-
ment. They knew that if the feeling which was then
abroad was suffered to progress—if feverish excit-ment
were permitted to subside into wholesome quiet, the mea-
sure 'would meet the same treatment from the country,
which it would have assuredly met from that House...-.
(Hear, hear.) The project for dissolving Parliament at
the present moment he considered highly criminal. He
compared it to the design of putting a deadly weapon into
the bands of a madman; and reminded Government that
the person who put such a weapon within the grasp of a
madman, was responsible for the murders he might commit
in his paroxysm of insanity.
Mr. R. PRICE hoped Government would not resign.
They had the complete confidence of the Sovereign and
the people: and he hoped they would have the wisdom and
spirit to appeal to the people upon this subject. It was
only for those who had acted in opposition to the wishes of
their constituents to fear such an appeal.

Mr. M. FITZGERALD rose to defend himself from
gross misrepresentations of the grounds of his vote, upon
the motion brought forward by the Gallant General. He
voted for that motion, because he considered it a most un-
justifiable proposition to benefit Scotland and Ireland at
the expense of the English representation. The grounds
of his vote were the desire to do justice to England; and
he would strongly maintain that the keeping up the full
representation of England furnished no good reason why
additional Members should not be given to Scotland and
Ireland. For the leading individuals in the present Ad-
ministration he entertained the highest possible respect,
and he did not believe the Reform Bill was cordially as-
sented to by these distinguished persons. He accordingly
hailed the withdrawal of it with pleasure. Except some
minor details, which could be adopted at any time, there
was nothing in the Bill which could induce him to give it
his approbation. He thought, that at present a dissolution
would be a most unadvisable proceeding. The state of
Ireland was most alarming in several counties—the pea-
santry were in actual rebellion, and there was no security
for life and property. On what guarantee or security did
they then proceed, that this state of things woul I not be
rendered worse—and more alarming by the excitement of
a dissolution ? They complained of nomination-boroughs
—were they prepared to place the representation of Ire-
land in the hands of an individual ? Or, were they so
encouraged by the result of the late elections as to suppose
their own influence would be paramount? He could
scarcely suppose this, since of the three elections which
had recently occurred in Ireland, two were decided by the
nomination of the Hon. Member for Waterford. What
was all the nomination of rotten boroughs compared with the
power of nomination that would be thrown by the Govern-
ment, in the event of a dissolution, into the hands of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford ? Was it nut
notorious, that if the Hon. and Learned Member for Wa-
terford bad raised the cry of the repeal of the Union
against Sir Henry Parnell, that Hon. Baronet would nut
have been so easily returned for the Queen's County.
Then, too, was it not equally clear, that, without the
presence of an army in Kilkenny, the Noble Lord now re-
turned for that county would have been defeated by the
nominee of the Hon and Learned Member? Where,
however, was the army that would be able to give free
access to the poll to the electors of all the counties in
Ireland? It might be said that there would not be need
of such an army. In one respect he believed it, for he be-
lieved that they had the guarantee of the Hon. and
Learned Member that all should be quiet—that the elec-
tions should be free front disturbance—that the repeal of
the Union should not be agitated, nor, indeed, any other
question but that of Parliamentary Reform.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not mean to soy that this might not he
so, at least as far as the Hon. and Learned Member was
concerned, for he did not mean to say that they were
reckoning without their host on this occasion; but he
believed, that great as was the power of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, he did net possess power enough to
secure the peace and tranquillity of that country. It was
now well understood that an appeal was to be made to the
people, and he feared the consrquences that might ensue.
He would make one observation with respect to the
speeches of the Hon. Member for Preston. He bad never
been the friend of universal suffrage and vote by ballot a,
but he agreed with that Hon. Member, that the effect of
the Bill was to exclude the lower classes of this country
from their share in the representation. He was opposed to
such a change, and he should take his stand as decidedly
against the disfranchisement of the constituency of Pres-
ton, because they were poor, as he should against the
other part of the measure, which went to deprive property
of its just influence in the country. He had few fears or
anxieties about the election to which he probably should
soon go. His political principles and consistency were
too well known for him to fear the result of the election.
He had always been ready to go the full length of any prac-
ticable measure of Reform, and for that reason be had
given his vote for the disfranchisement of East Retford;
but he had on a former occasion rejected, as he had now,
a sweeping measure of disfranchisement. He should be
glad, too, that the number of Members for Scotland
should be increased, and that the important town of Bel-
fast should he brought snore politically forward. He was
also willing to extend the representation to all the great
cities of England. In any measure of Reform of this
kind recently brought forward, the only justifiable course
would be, that it should be proposed in one Session, and
decided on in the next ; but the Parliament ought nut to
be called or, to get rid of one Constitution, and to make
another, all in the same Session.
Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that while his Hon.
Friend was addressing the House, it really was impossible
to know, at least so far as his speech went, what was the
question before them.—(Hear, bear, and laughter.)—if
the House was thus to be drawn into a debate on a queer,
tion that was withdrawn, he did not know when the de
bates of that House were to have an end.—(Hear, bear.)
—lt was certainly true that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had formerly refused his assent to a sweeping measure, as
he culled it, of this kind ; but three years afterwards, he,
at the bidding of the Noble Lord then at the head of the
Irish Government, concurred in one which was ten times
as revolutionary.—( Hear, hear.)—lle objected to the in-
troduction of discussions of this kind.
. Sir R. PEEL felt himself called on to vindicate the
course taken by his Right Hon. Friend. That at an early
period that House might be dissolved, was in itself a jus-
tification for those who had not before had an opportunity
of expressing their opinions on the subject.—(Hear.)—He
inferred from the silence of the Noble Lord opposite that it
was the intention of the Government to risk that experi-
ment, which he thought tit the present time was fraught
will danger, and might end in general tumult. • He qui;
relied not with the Noble Lord for abandoning the Reform
' relativeg e
pi oportiolo
Bill ; if he thought there was that degree of objection to
the Bill and to the details as to preclude the further pro-
gress of the Lill, he was a competent judge of the matters
and must be supposed to be right in his opinion; but be
must regret the es ithdrawal of the measure oni;w6
motionaprjli,
e,
which had nothing to do with its substance. In his op
trion
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