The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

object, because it would induce parents to take greater care
of at, it otr-pring, and nut send them into th- world un-
protec-ed, yet it might giv- rise to c,,nsideratile litiea ion.
He hvgiFd to 'Assure the fi n. Gentleman that his at-
tention would continue to be directed to that suh-

jtct. and that he hh,,uld he h.ppy to take into conside-
ration any suggestion that could be offered to the

G.ivernfneW.

Mr. RANKES said that the syst.m of separation that
was suggested could not be cirri.rl ..ut in D .rchest..r.

. _
Ihe Secr,tary of Stat- had put a stop to the gaol ac-
nommod ;don that was prop,,s,d by the nraais,r4tes
there, who hail agrued to expend upwards of triree thou-
sand pounds upon it, and had E. trigesteli the adop,i..n
of a plan that would cost li n thou,nnd pounds,
which that county could no! afford. Ito was happy to
hear that with respert to juvenile off-nd,-rs the attention
of the Government had b-en directed to that subject.
As to the system of classification. he did not thick it
could be carried out. 1-.1, cordially wished success
to the motion of his Honourable Friend. and thoughl

that he could not do t,ett,r that sopoori. the Bill that
had been brought in by 11,,r Mtjt,.-.ty s Governta,-tit. It
was a at,p in the right direert at.d as, n1,17h It h•-•

thought could b- expected during the present session.
Sir J PAKINGTON expressed his regret that this
question hsd been brought on at this late period of ,he
session, and with the object expressed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Pontefract. He was rather surprised that The
Honourable Gentleman had concluded with a motion
for leave to introduce a Bill, us he expec ed
the Honourable Gentleman intended to move the
appoi7 tment of this Committee on the subject. When
the Rignt lion. Gentleman the Seer, try of State or
the Home Depa,tment c..ane into office he had sorn-
convers ition with him on this subj.-c:, and he cer•
tainly ha i been in hopos that the Right Honour-
able Baronet would ere this have introduced a
Bill to authorise the construction of an establishment for
the reformation of juvenile offenders. tie thought it
highly desirable that a Committee should be appointed
t., advise the [louse in this matter before it was further
proceeded with.
Mr. HENLEY trusted the lion. Member for Ponte-
fract would go one step turther in the matter, and bring
in the Btll of which he had given notice. Of course he
could not hope to pass it this session, but it would add
to the general fund of information which bad been col-
lected on the subject.
bir GEORGE GREY was ignorant of the facts re-
lated by the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, but he
would cause inqiiiry to be made into them.
Mr. M. MILNES would follOv thn advice of the
[lon. Gentleman opposite, and lay his Bill on the tabl-
before the House separated. The reason he had dela) ed
the introduction of this question so long was becauso he
had been in daily expectation that Govermatout would
take it up with rigour.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
TEMPORALITIES OF THE CHURCH OF

IRELAND.

Mr. BERNAL OSI3ORNE then rose pursuant to
notice to move for a Committee of the whole
House to consider the present state of the tempo-
ralities of the Church of Irel4nd. The Honourable
Gentleman, he said, the Member for Pontefract, in in-
:aeelucing the very useful measure he had just brought
before the Hotote, had told the House how d,fficult it was
for any individual Member to grapple with the
subject of the treatment and the formation of jevenile
offenders. If it was difficult for an individual Member
to bring such a subject bsf. -re the House, how much
more difficult it was for an independent Member of
Parliament, totally unconnected as he was, not only with
the Gov. rnment, hut with any political party to brine
forward the question of which he had given notice fur
this evening. (Hear, hear.) However he might
regret that the great names and ability which
were formerly devoted to the discussion of this
question were no Linger available for the purpose,
at least he c--uld net be accueed of showing any undue
presumptien in now subtuittin it to the notice of the
House.---e Cries of " Hear, hear.") Whether it was that
the asp, et of Irish grievances bed been more rsnk and
otfem,ive to gentlemen on the opposite benches, or ttta.
the Irish reps. a• titetises th tn,elves, as a body, were
int.itfcretr. ti this subi' ct he knew net, but this qu s
don the Irish Church, which was formerly the gather-
ing cry of the Whigs, had been within the lest few years
entirely laid aside, and that instrument, on whch s't
many harmoeious tunes bad be eta playtd, was now
like the fabulous harp of Tara, hung up mut-.
,and remained unstrune.—(Hear, hear.) However
Hon. Gentleman differed woh hi-n on this question,
they would not be inclined to say that it was
not one of the gravest consideration. Where
the whole eccl• s7astscal revenues of the countrs
were devoted to one-tenth ot the pepulation, and that
one tenth of the pei•plo the Protestant minority. and
where the religion of the majority was bu
winked at by the State, he could not but think
such a question was in its. if worthy the gravest conside
ration ot this House. He thought there was no Member ot
that House, who, if even they had to commence legislating
on this subject de novo, would be inclined to take those
funds founded by the ancestors of the pour Catholic ma
jority, and bestow them upon the spiritual education of
the rich Protestant minority.—(Cries ot " Hear, hear.")
He should give one of the best definitions he
knew of the Irish Church in a very few words.
It was the opinion of a great Conservative
statesman. He said. " You have an ecclesiastical
establishment which, though the religion of the Prince.
and most of the first-class of landed proprietors, was no:
the religion of the major part of the people." That was
said by Butke in 1796. And how stood the case
in 1849? It was true they had corrected
some flagrant abuses, but the evil still existed
In 1823 the question of the temporalities of the Irish
Church was first mooted in that House by that pioneer
of all modern improvements, his Honourable Friend
the Member for Montrose. Unlike the generality
of original projectors, whose projects were treated
in their time as the offsprings of political empiricism.
he had lived to find them carried out by the leaders of
both parties, and who, nevertheless, never laid claim to
them, but pursued the " even tenor of his way"—
(Cheers)---and happily continued in pristine strength
and adhered with stern consistency to the sentiments of
his early days.—(Hear, hear.) That motion was sup-
ported by Mr. Ward, the late Member for Sheffield, and
ny the present President of the Board of Control, and the
Prime Minister. For eight years he continued this
course, and was supported in it by of some of those
now in the. Cabinet. At length, Lord Althorp
brought in a Bill on the subject, which abolished
vestry cess, but the 147th clause, or the appropriation
clause, was in an evil hour abandoned. A remarkable de-
bate ensued, which was fully reported in " Hatiserd." In
those days arbitration was notch needed, for several Mem-
bers were called out. Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Connell op-
posed the Bill, and Mr. Shell made a speech which
would never be forgotten. He regretted he did not
favour the House with speeches so often as the House
could wish.—(Elear, hear.) Upon that occasion pre
Lushington entreated the H .use to adjourn, since
in his experience his had never seen the
decencies of public and private life so much
violated. The Bill was given up. Still. Mr.
Ward persevered in 1835 In :834 Mr. O'Connell
had made his great m .tion for repeal, and he
was met wi h an amendment. But it was
desirable to promote all important inprovewents. On the
30th .if March in that year Lord John Rus,ell brought
en a motion en toe subject, and the Parliament of that.
day passed tee Apprunriation Bell. Still Mr. Ward w<nt
.11 melting his annual motions. In 1843, Mr. Smith
O'Brien, eho whatever his Butts were was an
honest Member of Parliament, brought forward
a motion. In that year the present Chancellor of the
Exch. quer said the first evil of Ireland was the sate of
the I, ish Church; that in no country of Europe was
such art establishment maintained for the nenefit of is
small minority of the pepultstien; and he considered it
he duty of the Goverem nt to originate a re.t.edy tor
he evils complained ot, and to provide for the settle-
:octet of th.. question.—(Hear.. hear.) The Right Hon.
.ecretar) for Ireland also made a very animated speech
laugh)—on that occasion. He (Mr. Osborne) did
ot use the term invidiously; he meant that the Itte,ht
Ron. Baronet was excited. (The lion. Gentl• man
proceeded to read some passages from the speech of Sir
W. Somerville, who sail, be had heard, hut did not
believe, that it was not the intention of the Government
to re- open the question of the Irish Church, and who
appealed to the Conservative and Christian gentlemen
of England whether, if they tv, re in the situation of the
Irish people, they would submit to that establishment
adding, that he little knew tee spirit of the English
nation if they would not resist it.) He (Mr. Osborne)
wished to ask that Right Honourable Baronet, as a Con-
servative and a Christian gentleman, whether he was
now prepared to resist that Church?—(Hear, bear, and
a laugh.) The Right lion. Member for Ripon also said,
during the same debate, that he admitted the Irish
Church to be the most important of all subjects—one
which he feared lay• at the bottom ct all their difficul-
ties. Lord Howick, now Earl Grey, said on the same
occasion, that if they meant to have peace in Ireland
they must reform the Established Church—(Hear, hear)
—that they must not shirk the question. but must deal
with the property of that Church. On that occasion
seven of the present Cabinet Ministers voted for the
motion. In 1844, so much afraid was the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government lest the question should
he taken out of his hands by Mr. Smith O'Brien, that
he moved tor a Committee to inquire into the state of
Ireland, and a remarkable debate took place. (The
lion. Member here read passages from the speeches
delivered by Lord J. Russell and Sir G. Grey in the
course of that debate. The Noble Lord said:—" With
regard to the Irish Church, th e system
should be disposed to adopt would be onl
which would put the Established Church, es
regards Roman Catholics and erotestants, upon
is footing of the most perfect equality." Sir G.
Grey said that when he was told the question of the
It jab Church was beset with difficulties, he denied them
to be difficulties sufficient to deter a Minister of the
Crown from dealing wi.h it; and that nothing ap.
peered to him worse, nothing more hazardous, than
for Parliament to declare that they would not entertain
the question of the Irish Church because it was
beset with difficulties; adding—" The union must be
maintainel, but a complete union never can be effected
so long as the Pst ablished and endowed Church of the
minority exclusively exist x"—(Haar.) The whole of the
eresent Cabinet, and of the present race of Lords of the
Treasury, and peeVe of that class—(A laugh)—then
voted, he believed, tor the Noble Lenee metier). The
last time the Tiestion of the Irish Church had been die-
useed in that House was in 1845, when Mr Warn
-.eyed an amendment upon the proposition ot the Right
;lon Number for l'amworth with respect to the College
of Maynooth. He did not know how Irish Members would
act upon this occasion, but he could gain au inkling of
the course some of tht-se Hen. Members would tutor:,
from is hat had already taken place. The Hon. Metnin r
Re-cernmen had anis% !lust tuts lens net flats proper
time tor t ward • ese. ete,j• et; teet
tend to excite discord. Now, he found that the Hon.
Gentleman had never, in the course ()ibis long parlismen.