The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1836

Lord in order to persuade him to make so felicitous a
choice.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The House seeing the
Hon. Baronet not only the representative of Lord Roden, but
the image as it was before reform of Dundalk—(Laughter)—
and now look at Dundalk as it is. Look at the Hon. Gn-
tlernan the successor of the Member for Oxford. Where is
not a greater contrast between the Hon. Gentleman, between
the soft and gentle conservatism of the one, and the stern and
inflexible democracy of the other, than there is between Dun-
dalk before and since reform.—(Loud laughter.) Formerly
the Protestants of Ireland enjoyed a complete monopoly of the
patronage of the Crown. The Pactolus of the Royal bounty
rose in the Castle to discharge itself into the reservoir of Pro-
testantism—( Laughter)—but now, without distinction of re-
ligion, an indiscriminate participation takes place in the dig-
nities and emoluments connected with the departments of the
state. The different professions have been thrown open to us.
Take the bar as an example of the effect produced by the
career which is famished to the talents of the Irish Catholics.
In 1812 Mr. Saurin denounced us as miscreants, and now one
of those miscreants is his Majesty's Attorney- General.—
(Loud cheers.) Roman Catholics are in ail branches of
business at the bar at its highest points. If we were seven
millions of mere unintellectual, dull, insensible, degraded
serfs, a mere mass of helotism, to our seven millions little re-
gard should be paid. Once we were sunk indeed by the penal
code, but a marvellous change has taken place. Men often
talk of the great improvement which has taken place in Ireland,
and in doing so they refer merely to its external aspect; its
moral one has undergone a still greater alteration. Not only
has the plough climbed to the top of the mountain, and culti-
vation pierced into the morass, but the mind of Ireland has
been reclaimed.—(Loud cheers.) This salutary influence has
ascended to the higher classes, spread among the middle, and
descended among the lower. The humblest peasant has been
nobly affected by it. Even in the midst of the most abject
destitution, he has began to acquire a sentiment of self-res-
pect. " He venerates himself a mar,." I remember the time
when, if you struck an Irish peasant, he cowered beneath the
blow. Strike him now—the spirit of offended manhoodstarts
up in a breast covered with rags. This Celtic blood boils up
as yours would, and he feels and he acts as if he were born in
this noble land of yours, where the person of every British citi-
zen is sacred from affront, and from his birth he had breathed
that moral atmosphere which Britons are accustomed to inhale.
—( Cheers.) No, Sir, we are not what we were. We have
not caught the accents of your voices, indeed, but we have
caught the intonations of your rhymes. Englishmen !we are
too like you to give you leave to keep us down—(Loud cheers)
—nay, in some points we have surpassed you. Have you read
the evidthwe of the Intimidation Committee, and the dispraise
of heroism in rags which it details ? The Irish peasant is
prepared again to do what he did before, and to bid defiance
in the cause of his country to poverty, explosion, ruin. Do
you doubt it? Put it to the test. If we stood alone, I should
not despair. Sustained by British sympathy, how can I for a
moment of the triumph of this great cause entertain a doubt ?
Scotland is with us. The Scotch feel that the cause in which
their fathers bled is ours. And as to England, if we have
been defeated in skirmishes at occasional elections, I make no
question that at a general election in the great onset we should
win the day ; and if we do (and with that question I conclude)
what course will the Tories take? They bid us yield to the
Lords. Will they, in that event, yield to the people? Will
they give up the great principle on which their resistance is
founded? The Member for Lancashire will cry out that be
will resist it to the death—the Member for Tamworth is too
wise to do so.—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. HODGSON, after briefly recapitulating the circum-
stances attendant upon the more recent elections for New-
castle, but in a tone of voice which, standing as he did on the
other side of the Speaker's chair, did not reach us in the gal-
lery, stated that in the late election for that town he had been
returned without soliciting a single vote, and after having
declared his determination not to lend his support in any way
to the alienation of Church property to secular purposes in
Ireland.—( Loud cheers from the Opposition.) With respect
to the speech which had just been delivered by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Tipperary, it abounded, particularly the
latter part of it, in beautiful imagery and powerful figures;
but he did not see that throughout the whole tenor of his
address the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made one
attempt to argue the question before the House upon its
merits. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech con-
tained this point, and this one alone, that if the House voted
against the appropriation clause to-night, Ministers would be
dismissed from their offices, but that the House would preserve
them in their places by opposing the Lords' amendments to
this Bill. Now he (Mr. Hodgson) considered the question
of the stability of a Government, as infinitely unimportant
when compared with the settlement of a great principle like
that before the House at this moment.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY, after premising that it was not his
intention to detain the House very long, said that the senti-
ments which he had uttered on a former occasion on this sub-
ject had been very much misrepresented, so much so that he
felt himself called upon to appeal to a tribunal to which an
Englishman seldom appealed in vain, to his constituents—and
the result was, that they declared themselves unanimously in
favour of the line of conduct he had taken up, and from that
line he saw no reason now to deviate. In one respect, how-
ever, he felt himself bound on the present occasion to adopt a
different course to that which he had on the last division on
this subject, when, as it might be recollected by the House,
having fearlessly expressed his opinions on the whole question
he had abstained from giving a vote. On the present occa-
sion he should give a vote, and for this reason—on the
former occasion he was equally opposed both to the
proposition of the Noble Lord the Member for North
Lancashire, and to that of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, and therefore he would not
vote for either; and on the present occasion, if the ques-
tion was the acceptance of one or other of those propositions,
he should again abstain from voting ; but as it happened this
was not the question upon which he was now called to vote,
but whether they should accept this measure denuded of the
appropriation clause, which would be nothing less than ex-
tracting all the merit from it—(Hear, hear)—that and no
other was the consideration and the question upon which he
should this evening give his vote. He (Mr. Harvey) had fol-
lowed with great attention the speech just delivered by the
Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary, in hopes he would
have advanced some arguments in support of the course pro.
posed by his Majesty's Government on this subject—some at-
tempt to show that this Bill, when passed, would be sufficient
to tranquillise and satisfy the demands of that country of which
the Hon. and Learned Member was so distinguished an orna-
ment, and so able an advocate. But so far from this, when
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had taken a brief survey of
the history of Ireland during the last half century, he ab-
stained altogether from giving any opinion for the future
as to what would be the result of the passing of this mea-
sure.—( Hear, hear, hear.) For his own part, he (Mr.
Harvey) did not think this measure would be productive of all
that satisfaction and tranquillity which were promised from it.
He thought the lion. and Learned Member, as a Roman Ca-
tholic, was bound to do everything he could to destroy the
power and subvert The influence of the Protestant Church in
Ireland.—( Marked cheering from both sides of the House.)
If he ( Mr. Harvey) conscientiously thought that the existence
of a Protestant Church was necessary for the happiness and
welfare of the people of England, he should have taken the
view and supported the proposition of the Noble Lord the
Member for North Lancashire. But he was not of that opi-
nion : and therefore it was that he felt that this very measure,
not'before the House, could not satisfy the feelings of a
people who were conscientiously opposed to the doctrines, and
therefore to the very existence, of a Protestant
.Church, and
its claims to protection were essentially different in Ireland
from what they were in England. In England the great bulk
of the people of the country were in favour of the Protestant
doctrines, but in Ireland the case was precisely the reverse. The
institutions of the country ought to be applied to the utmost
possible extent according to the wants and desires of the. pec-
plc. Upon this principle he held it impossible to maintain a,
Church Establishment in Ireland which was made use of by
a small majority of communicants. What course then was to
be pursued ? The only course, in his opinion, was to withdraw
all legislative countenance from both Churches, and to apply
the revenues of the Church to the moral instruction and com-
fort of the people at large. The appropriation clause was a
mere dry, worthless abstraction.—(Hear, hear.) It pretended
to apply a certain surplus of Church revenues to the education
of the people in Ireland ; but where was that surplus to be
found ? The very advocates of the measure did not anticipate
that they would have anything of the kind for half a century
to come, and then it would only amount to something about
50,0001. a year ; and in the meantime the anticipations of that
surplus fund were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.
What, then, did all this quarrelling about appropriation
come to ? Why, both parties seemed to understand the
principle pretty well, and to act upon it too, by taking
care of themselves ; only that the Conservatives were
more honest than their opponents.—( Loud cheers from the
Opposition.) But there was one other question involvedin
this Bill which it appeared to him had been left quite un-
touched in the course of the discussion on this measure ;
namely, the pruposal to forgive the 700,000/. which had been
already advanced out of the million originally voted for the
relief of the clergy of Ireland. It would be recollected that
when the House was applied to by Lord Althorp for a sum of
money to meet the deficiency in the tithe payments of 1830
and 1832, their feelings were harrowed by the touching de-
scriptions given of the state to which the working
clergy in
Ireland hoe been reduced by the systematic resistance which
had been made to the payment of tithes. Well, in consequence
of all these appeals, the million vote was carried, under the un-
derstanding, however, that it was to be repaid to the public purse
by a scrt of land-tax, spread over a surface of five years' time.
•
It was surprising how the arithmetic of the Hon. Members of
that House varied with their objects. On that occasion Mr.
Littleton stated the tithes of Ireland to be about 600,000/. a
year, and taking the sum due to be 400,000/., that it would
require a million to meet the arrears ; so that at that time, in
order to show the House that there was no ground for alarm,
leec the loan should not be repaid, the tithes of Ireland were
declared to be worth 600,000/. a year. But now, when
those who took upon themselves the defence of the clergy
in that House wished to make out a case favourable to their
views, the tithes were lowered to 350,000/. " But so far,"
said the Hon. Gentleman, " from this sum of a million being
given to the meritorious, distressed, and indigent clergy of
Ireland, the fund was actually received in large lumps by
noble laymen—( Hear, hear)—and by female laymen too, if
I may so term them.—(Much laughter.) On what ground
those persons who have 100,000/. or 200,000/. a year, and who
are deriving immense revenues from a country which they de-
sert, and the withdrawal of their enormous rents from which
has a far greater share in the impoverishment of the people
than anything which appertains to the present Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) On what principle, I say, those who derive their
ducal incomes could so demean themselves as to borrow
money, creates my surprise; but how they could condescend
to receive from the resources of an impoverished country by

which they arc so much enriched, sums of money derived
from the people of that country, as well as from the people of
this country who are already so burdened with taxation, and
that they should not only consent to borrow these sums, but to
take them as a gift, this, I say, baffles all the powers of
language which it is possible for me to command in expressing
my detestation of their conduct.— (Cheers.) I find on this
list every class of persons, There are those on it who find
their justification in the magnitude of the sums which they
demand, and others .again in the paucity of their amount.—
( Laughter.) There is nothing too large for them to seize—
there is nothing too small for them to take.—(Renewed
laughter.) I find amongst them some very large recipients ;
and what is remarkable, there is a certain coincidence between
the magnitude of the title as well as the noble possessor's re-
sources and the sums which they have taken.—( Hear.) The
Duke of Devonshire, for instance, has actually condescended
first to borrow and next to accept in charity no less a sum than
3,664/.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now, Sir, not to travel
out of the " order" of nobility, while Dukes have been cram-
ming noble sums, Earls too have had their share, and one of
them, the Earl of Essex, had some pickings of crumbs,
amounting to 861. 13s. 4d.—( Hear.) But we have often
heard in this House that we should not speak irreverently of
persons who are absent, and I was much more amused than
instructed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Attorney-
General for Ireland, when alluding to night to the House of
Lords. Ha fancied all sorts of things : he insinuated much ;
he repudiated more, until at last he brought us to the subject
to which he wished to direct our minds.--( Hear, hear.) Now
it may be said, that it is unfair in me to speak of a Noble Duke
and Earl when they have not an opportunity of replying to the
statement, but it should be recollected that I am stating the
items of a return in which are to be found the names of the
Members of this House, who can answer for themselves.—
( Hear.) I should like to know whether those Hon. Members
mean to vote on this occasion? We have heard a great deal
lately of Hon. Members sitting on committees, or taking any
part in the discussions upon questions on which they have the
slightest personal interest. Now I cannot think that some
Hon. Members will sanction a measure by their vote, one of
the objects of which is to relieve them from the payment of a
debt, which they, as recipients of the million, have consented
to incur.—(Hear.) As this return is the hands of Hon.
Members, they can easily see whether they are amongst the
number of those who receive any portion of the million, or
whether they are not. When on a former occasion the Pen-
sion List was before the House, I alluded to those who re-
ceived the pensions without reserve ; but what will the House
feel when they are informed that there are in that list which
is now produced, ladies, residing in this metropolis, who re-
ceived part of the grant of a million as lay impropriators ?
Now this is a most flagrant perversion of the original inten-
tion of the grant—( Much cheering)—particularly when on
looking over the debates for the purpose of strengthening my
recollection, I find that Lord Althorp, when some distant in-
timation of an apprehension from past experience was made
by any Hon. Member (though he was disinclined to sup-
pose that so bad an example would be followed), of the
event, that- what was originally a loan would by some
means or other be converted into a gift—when I say such
an opinion was indirectly expressed, the Noble Lord Al-
thorp, whose fancy and vivid imagination were instantly
touched by the expression of the remotest apprehension
of such a circumstance, declared that if he could pos-
sibly conceive such an event to arise, he should be the
last man to make the proposition which he then sub-
mitted. And yet lam bound to say, that if the list be looked
to, the Whigs will be found to have, at all events, as deep a
finger in the purse as the Tories.—(Laughter, and Opposition
cheers.) And here I must allude to the repetition of the old
story, which I had fancied was almost worn out—namely, that
" if you leave Ministers in a minority on this question, it will
so agitate the vessel of the state, that in all probability it will
be engulfed in general ruin." Now, really this is a topic on
which I can scarcely bring myself to speak with seriousness.
The idea of this great nation being left in a state of distrac-
tion, the cables of the vessel of the state cut, and she in danger
of running into the wide sea, without having any guide to
direct her into post--this statement implies an imputation on
the capacity of the people of this empire which I can scarcely,
for a moment entertain. Why, let the Tories come in. —(op-
position cheers.) How long would they remain in power?
Just so long as they deserved.—( Ironical cheers.) They can't
stand an hour unless they are prepared to mend their man-
ners and their measures.—(Cheers renewed.) But, unfor-
tunately, if they were once in they need not do much more
than stick pretty closely to the tactics of their predecessors,
and give out that as they found a great deal of unfinished work
on hand, they must first turn that out before they take any
new orders, so that in this way a session or two may be con-
sumed before they begin on their own account.--( Hear, and
laughter.) The country understands the thing very well. We
have been six years, since November 1830, looking forward to
measures of substantial relief, but whether we take the mea-
sures with respect to the church, the law, or taxation, or with
reference to any of those manifold departments which were
thought would be better administered, we have been griev-
ously disappointed. Now when I speak of taxation, I per-
ceive the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking notes, and I
beg to assure him that I do not mean that he should let loose
on us his budget speech, for I have not the least intention of
inviting the chastisement of such an infliction.—( A laugh.)
A great deal, I admit, has been done in giving relief from
taxation by both parties, and more must be done; but what I
am certain is, that the just expectations of the people, as
to the results of a reformed Government, have met
with nothing but disappointment. Now, as r,egards this ap-
propriation clause, I shall vote against the Lords' amend-
ments, because it is just so much worse than the present Bill,
for not containing that clause which, though of no importance
in itself, acknowledged the principle that that House had as
much jurisdiction over the property of the Church as over the
Civil List, the revenues, or any other department of Govern-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) It is much better that the Irish Church
should remain as it is for the present. The people of Ireland
will be able to understand the merits of the question by the
next Session of Parliament. The people of England do now
understand it; and I am quite satisfied that the enlightened
reform and amelioration of the ecclesiastical establishments of
both countries will be more speedily effected by having this
Bill, which provides for neither, postponed.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CAVENDISH said, that down to 1824 the Duke of
Devonshire's tithes were let to individuals, who sublet them
at increased rents, but still on moderate terms. At the re-
quest of the parishes, the Duke of Devonshire in 1824 let
them to trustees for the different pastilles, as yearly tenants,
at rents amounting together to 2,5211. The compositions for
the same parishes amount together to 5.2931., and most of
such compositions were voluntarily entered into. The Duke,
however, continued to receive the same 2,5211, and therefore
annually relinquished 2,7721., being more than one-half.
Notwithstanding this, the same objection was raised against
this payment, as in all other cases of tithes, and since 1830,
with some few exceptions, all refused to
.pay any thing.
The Duke, however, has regularly paid tithes for his own
estates, where titheablo. It has been stated, I under-
stand, that the Act passed in 1833, called the Million
Act, was not intended for the relief of lay impropria-
tors, and that such persons ought not to have availed
themselves of it; and that, at all events, it was not in-
tended that any payment should be made from it,
by either lay or clerical persons, who arc not in
distress for want of the money. The contrary, I maintain,
was the fact; the Act was passed to stop the collection of
tithe, with a view to the final adjustment of the tithe question
the following year. The money was accepted by the Duke
of Devonshire, as a loan from the public, to avoid the neces-
sity of enforcing the payment of tithes ; and I always under-
stood that the Duke is, as he has always been, ready to re-
pay the money whenever Parliament shall so decide. It was
generally understood in Ireland, that the Government wished
all persons to avail themselves of the Act in order to set the
question of tithes at rest, it being intended to follow up the
Act by a permanent measure the following year. The only
question at the time, therefore, was, whether the Duke should
abandon the arrears, or receive them under the provisions of
the Act, to be afterwards repaid by the parties from whom
they were duo ; and no person, I think, can with reason say
that he was called upon to abandon the arrears, especially
after the liberal deduction for years made as I have before
stated.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY rose amid loud cries of " Divide." The
question he maintained was this, and this only—" Will you
accept so much of your own measure as both Houses of
Parliament are willing to carry into effect, or will you
for another year at least (and I say for a hopeless year)
go on protracting the misery and wretchedness of the con- I
diet between parties in Ireland and parties in England
without effecting your own object, wnich you say you desire ;
which you say would be of infinite benefit, and which we
admit, but which you will not consent to have accomplished
with the consent of the House of Lords, and with consent and
satisfaction of a large body of the representatives of this
House, unless you can attach to it that which we think ob-
jectionable, which we cannot accept.—( Opposition cheers,
cries of " Divide," and the Hon. Member cried out " That is
only one question.") It was aye or no ; would they accept
the Lords' amendments, and would they postpone them? Not
even that ; but would they consent to take the Lords' amend-
ments seriatim into discussion ?-_(Cries of " Oh, oh 1") If
that were not the question, he hoped he should be told what
it was; but if that really was the only question before them,
he trusted he would not be interrupted by the muttered moans
of gentlemen who could not, in debate and argument, con-
tradict what he said.—( Opposition cheers.) How, then, stood
the case? The Bill was sent down amended by the House of
Lords, and the Minister of the Crown moved the post-
?onement of the consideration of these amendments for
three months, thereby rendering it impossible that any mea-
sure could pass in the course of the present year; and on
this motion alone the House was now called upon to decide.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary had stated
that the example of this conduct was set us by the House of
Lo ds, because notwithstanding all the concessions made to
the Lords on the Municipal Act, they did not pass it. Why,
true ; but the House struck out clauses in your Municipal
Bill which they considered objectionable ; whilst your objec-
tion is, that as you cannot obtain some one principle to be put
into your Bill, on the refusal of which you insist upon rejecting
the whole measure. Now that is the distinction--the House
of Lords would not consent to concur in your measure, bt:nnse
it contained objectionable principles ; andyou will not consent
to pass this Bill, because it has not some one principle which
you insist upon having asserted. Here arose the question—
was this principle valuable or not ? All those who supported
the Bill plainly told the House it was not the clause itself,
but for the principle it introduced, and the means it
gave of carrying that principle still further.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Southwark (Mr.
D. W. Harvey), who opposed both sides of the House indis-
criminately, declared that in his opinion both Bills were
equally worthless, and that both ought, therefore, to be re-
jected; but, lie added, that if in either there was anything
that could raise them above the contempt they deserved, it

was the clause of appropriation contained in the Bill, of which
he should be glad to avail himself as a lever wherewith to
overthrow the whole fabric of the Established Church in Ire-
lane.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for
Tipperary, who began his speech certainly in a very amusing
manner, went on in a very piteous tone to entreat the House
to reject the amendments introduced by the Lords into the
Bill, and afterwards proceeded to argue the Bill—no, not to
argue the 4411, but to argue the question, and to point out
the superior numbers, wealth, and intelligence of the Catholic
population of Ireland, and to show how, by an increasing
perseverance, they had succeeded in obtaining a concession
of thbir claims in 1793 and 1829. " Weak as we were in
1793," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, " we extorted
much from you in that year ; advancing afterwards in strength,
we extorted from you a great deal more in 1829." Why did
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stop there ? Because the
argument he adopted before it came to its conclusion just
overleaped tie Bill now brought forward by his Majesty's
Ministers.— (Hear.) "We are strong, wealthy, and intelli-
gent," said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; " we extorted
much from you in 1793 ; we extorted what we chose from you
in 1629 ; and whether you will or no"—he would have added,
at all events, this inference was to be derived from his argu-
ment—" we will hereafter extort from you a great deal more."
—( Hear. ) That was the ground on which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Tipperary supported this Bill.—( Cheers. )
Then was the House of Commons to come down humbly to
the Government of Ireland, and to say, " Gentlemen, you
are strong, you are intelligent, you are wealthy, you are
powerful ; tell us what you want, and you shall have it—
( Hear.) You are powerful, and we, the Parliament of the
United Kingdom, cannot refuse you what you choose to de-
mand ' - you must have whatever you choose to ask."—(Hear,
hear, hear.) That was the argument of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman.—(Hear. hear.) They on the Opposi-
tion side of the House had been asked whether they expected
this Bill to tranquillize Ireland. There were two or three
meanings to be attached to the phrase " tranquillizing Ireland."
If he were asked whether it would tranquillize those who were
determined not to be satisfied until they had overthrown the
Church Establishment in Ireland, he would say that this Bill
certainly could not be expected to achieve such an end ; and
that no Bill to which he (Lord Stanley) would consent, or
to which, he hoped, the GovCrnment would consent, would
ever satisfy that party, nor as long as their clamour was
listened to would Ireland ever be tranquillized.—( Hear, hear.)
They now had it in their power to tranquillize Ireland as far as
strife and bloodshed arising from the payment of.tithe or com-
position for tithe was concerned.—( Hear, hear.) They had
the means in their hands—a word from the head of the Go-
vernment in that House would do it.—(Loud cheers.) If
Ministers refused to consent to the Lords' amendments and to
pass the Bill as it then stood, it was the Ministry and not the
Opposition who refused to give tranquillity to Ireland.—
(Great cheering from the Opposition.) He saw the means of
doing much good—he saw the means of achieving that which
Ministers admitted to be a great good, namely, the shifting of
the burden of tithe from the tenant to the landlord—and of
redistributing the property of the Church in such a manner as
should be consistent with the strict principles of equity and
justice. He saw the means of doing this in this present Bill,
as it came down to them amended from the House of
Lords.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. F. YOUNG rose amid loud and general cries of
" Divide !" He should feel himself bound as an honest and
consistent man not to give his vote in favour of the amend-
ments.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) .
The House then divided—
For the original motion 260
For the amendment... 231
Majority for Ministers —29
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at two o'clock.

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE.

LORD CHAMBERLAIN'S OFFICE, Jur.r 8, 1836.

The Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's Household has appointed
William Rose, of Sandhills, in the county of Hants, Esq., one of
the Gentlemen of his Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Chamber
in Ordinary.