The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-27 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 26.

The SPEAKER, took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

EiinUBLIN, ASHBOURNE, AND DROGHEDA
ROADS ACT CONTINUATION AND AMEND.
MENT BILL.

On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,

Mr. REYNOLDS felt bound to oppose the motion,
and to move that it be read a second time that day t,ix
months. The Hon. Member also presented several pe-
titions against the Bill.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL seconded the amendment.
Mr. HAMILTON supported the second reading of the
13111.

After a short discussion the House divided, when there
appeared—
For the second reading ... ..• 46
Against it 16
• •
Majority for the second readitig ... —3O
The 801 was then r& ad a second time, and ordertd to
be commuted.

Mr FAGAN presented petitions praying that the
attention of the House might be directed to the charities
of Ireland, from Cork and scveral other pi ices; slio
petitions from the Corparation of Cork, against the
abolition of the process of attachment in the Record
Court of Cot k.

Mr. C. BRUCE presented petitions from places in
nirayshire ag,iirtit the Marrisgo Bill.
Mr. DUNCAN presented petitions from several parts
of Dundee to the same effect.

Mr. DEEDES presented petitions from Kent com-
plaining of agricultural distress.
Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from the
Mechanics' Institution of Bradford, praying that national
disputes might be settled by arbitration.
Mr. CO WAN presented petitions from various parts
of Sentlend, complaining of agricultural distress.
Mr. CROWDER presented a petition from the officers
of St. Martin's Union, praying for the establishment of
a superannuation fund.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH presented a petition from
Van Diemen's Land, against the present system of
transporting convicts to that colony.
Mr. REYNOLDS press nted a petition from an Irish-
man, who had been recently employed in the Ordnance
Department of the Tower, complaining that he had
b,sen dismissed from his situation through a prejudice
which prevailed in that department against his coun-
trymen.
Mr. WYLD presented a petition from Bodmin, pray-
ing the Ilouse to take into consideration the case of the
Rev. J. t-hone, with the view to his immediate release
also a petition from the Alieged Lunatics'Friend Society,
praying fur an alteration in the law of lunacy.
Mr. LOCKE presented a petition from the Town
Council of Edinburgh, stating that the attaching of pas-
senger carriages to the Sunday trains on the Scotch
railways was not only desirable but absolutely called for,
and praying the House to take the matter into their
serious consideration.
Mr. ADDERLEY presented a petition from Sheffield
praying for an alteration in the poor-law.
Sir G. GREY presented a petition from Northumber-
land in favour of the Clergy Relief Bill.
Lnrd DUDLEY STUART presented a petition com-
plaining,; of the manner in which justice was adminis-
tered Cy the Palace Court.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

Mr. HUIIE postponed his motion with respect to
Parliamentary Reform until the 15th of next month.
PRISON DISCIPLINE.

Mr. CHARLES PEARSON gave notice that on the
15th of next month he would move for the appointment
of a Select Committee to inquire into and report upon
the practicability of establishing one uniform system of
discipline, purely reformatory and self-supporting, to be
applied to all prisoners convicted of crime.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND.) _ _

Mr. J. O'CONNELL gave notice that he would move
for a return of the number of notices served u ion
relieving-officers with respect to the eviction of tenants
in Ireland.
CALAMITIES ON BOARD STEAMERS.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL rose to aEk the President of the
Board of Trade whether it is the intention of the Go-

vernment to bring in any measure so to regulate the
carriage of passengers in merchant vessels, between
various ports of the United Kingdom, as may prevent
the recurrence of such calamities as occurred on board
the Londonderry steamer? He would beg to ask the
President of the Beard of Trede also whether his atten-
tion had b: en drawn to an inquest which bad been held
at Liverpool within the last few days in reference
to the loss of life which had happened on board the Bri-
tannia steamer, during a gale of wind, when no less than
214 of the deck passengers were exposed to the greatest
distress and danger, many of them having been com-
pelled to take refuge on the paddle-boxes, and in conse-
quence of which exposure a woman and her child had
perished?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he was happy to state that
the attention of the Government had been called to the
consequences of the overcrowding and the exposure of deck
passengers to the weather, on board of passenger boats
plying between Irdand and England, not only from the ca-
tastrophe which had occurred on board the Londonderry
but from other causes. The Government, however, were
desirous of not throwing any obstructions in the way of
the peasantry of Ireland coming over to England in
harvest time. hitherto the power of limiting the num-
ber of passengers on board steam-vessels had only been
applied to river boats; and it could only be extended to
vessels sailing on the open sea after mature de:iberation.
He had, however, to state that the Government had sent
an officer down to Liverpool to institute an inquiry into
the circumstances connected with the case of the Bri-
tannia.
Mr. CARDWELL said it was his duty, on the part of
the parochial authorities at Liverpool, to express the
satisfaction which he felt at Captain Denham's having
been directed to institute that inquiry.
THE NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. B. COCHRANE rose to ask Mr. Greene whether
there was any probability of the House of Commons being
ready for tha reception of Members by the session of
1850; whether it might not be ready if a larger grant
were made for the purpose; what amount would enable
such to be effected; and whether a great ultimate saving
might not be obtained by a more liberal grant during the
present you.?

Mr. GREENE said, in reply to the first question, h
could only state, tha the Ikese itst:llmight be rendered
Cc.. for toe oceupitim: Bert; r:, but 11 the various

0

coLnectad with it could not be conveniently
fi!itsl,cd. So tar, therefore, as t;le House itself was cat-

arced. it et:mid be conveniently wed and occupied by
the Members. L 3 answ,A. to the second question
he hid to say, perh4ps the }louse might be
suffiei,.tndy finished, together with the libraries
and other offices, providA an additional sum, over that
which had ben granted this year, to the amount of

about 50.000 L, could be allowcd po,sibly for that pur-
pose. With respect to the last question, there could be
doubt whatever that a very ccnsiderable saving might
be ultimately cfc, etc d by going on with the works a little
mere rapidly.—(ll-ear, hear.)
Mr. COCHRANE would then ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government whether he would not con-

Sider himself' justifi• d in proposing an increased grant for
the new House of Commons?

Lord J. RUSSELL said the amount of the grant

mu .t be regulated very much by the expenditure of the
year.—(Laughter.)

'VILE RATE IN AID.
Lord J. RUSSELL s,aid he would not be able to

bring on the Rate in Aid Bill this evening. What he
would propose was to postpone the Committee

on that 8111 until to-morrow. Ho thought the
Bill should be taken the first thing to-morrow

on the orders of the day ; and if the House went
into Committee on the ]3►ll on that (lay, he proposed
that the report he talten on Saturday. He
woul.l then be able to put the third reading
first on the orders of the day on Monday. The question
was ono of great emergency—(Hear, hear)—and be
trusted the Ilouse would agree to his proposal.
Mr. H. GRATTAN hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would not persevere at that crisis, and would withdraw
his motion.

Mr. SLANEY said he bad alrealy postponed the mo-
:ion for the convenience of the Government, and he
thought it would be unfair to ask him again to do so,

unle;i a thy were assigned to him cm which he could
bring it. on.
Sir R. PEEL said he was not sure whether or not ho
had understood the Noble Lord correctly. Ho was,
therefore, desirous of knowing if the withdrawal of the
. _

motion would affect the position of the Billi for the

Effectual R, lief of a stittite Poor, and fur Facilitating

lhe Sale of Encumbered Estates.

Lord J. RUSSELL replied that it would not.
Mr. BRIG HT said, the question of alleviating the con-
dition of Ireland waa a great one at the present moment;
but he thought the Hon. Gentleman would meet with as

much attention on Friday, it he were to postpone his mo.
tion until that day, as he would tu-night.—(Hear.)
Mr. SLANEY repeated that he would postpone the
motion if a day was assigned to him on which he could
bring it on. _ .

Mr. P. SCROPE urged the Hon. Gentleman to post-
pone his motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said be could not fix a day. He
proposed to move air: Rate in Aid Bill as it stood.
Mr. SLANEY said, looking at the feeling on both
sides of the House, he should postpone his motion, and
when he again brought it on he hoped the House would
give him a fair and patient hearing.
MARITIME INTERCOURSE.

Mr. MACGREGOR postponed the following motion:
I. That considering the magnitude of the maritime com-
merce of the British empire, and that no vessel or ship, with
a cargo, in ballast, or with passengers, can, when engaged
either in the coasting, colonial, or foreign trade, arrive at,
discharge, or take in a lading, or passengers, or depart from
any port in the United Kingdom, without the interference of
the officers and submitting to the regulations and laws of
the Customs, it has become necessary for Parliament to take
into consideration the whole subject of the administration,
organization, management, and regulations of that depart-
ment :

2. That the friendly and peaceable relations, and reciprocal
social benefits, and commercial advantages between the
United Kingdom and all foreign countries, can be most
harmoniously and durably maintained by the maritime and
trading intercourse bein; rendered as free as the security of
the revenue may allow from all vexatious, ignorant, and
useless restrictions, delays, and expenses :
3. That with a view to facilitate maritime intercourse be-
tween British and all foreign ports, and to effect a direct re-
sponsibility of duties and efficiency of services in regard to
the security of the revenue, and the quick dispatch of the
commercial and shipping business of the United Kingdom, it
appears the following changes are absolutely necessary
First. A complete refOrm of the system of regulations,
orders, and management of the Customs.
Second:An abolition of the present administrative
organization of appointments, and especially that of
the Board of Commissioners.
Third. That for the purposes of responsibility of duties,
the security of the revenue, and the quick and
efficient dispatch of ships and their cargoes, an efficient
re-arrangement of the personal organization of the
Customs department appears necessary.
4. That considering the effect which the commerce and
the financial legislation of the United Kingdom have, at all
times, upon the employment of the people, the prosperity of
i the empire, and the public revenue and credit, it appears

- . .
necessary to inquire into the progress of the trade and navi-
gation between the United Kingdom and foreign countries,
and also between the United Kingdom and the British pos-
sessions abroad, including India, from the sth day of Januar'',
1827, to the sth day of January, k 49.

PACKET SERVICE.
On the motion of Mr. HENLEY, a Select Committee
was appinted to inquire into the contract packet service.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND).

Lord J. RUSSELL then rose to move, pursuant to
notice, for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act for
she m. re effeetusil relict of the destitute poor in Leaved.
He had stated on a former occasion the nature of the
amendments ho had intended to introduce himself.
What he had now to propose he proposed on the
responsibility of the Government. The first and most
important alteration was the introduc ion of a maximum
both with regard to the rates upon each separate elec-
toral division and the rates upon all electoral divisions.
I s provision, to hat( ver its amount might be, he admitted
was contrary to the general principles of the
poor-law of that country, but it must be remem-
bered that in Ireland the attempt to carry out
the principle of the poor-law as in this country,
that of relieving pauperism by a rate in support
of the poor, and by a rate setting to work the able-
bodied poor. had been found to be productive of great
distress, and great scarcity, and such oppression oa
the tenant farmer of the country and the property
of the country, as to create great alarm
Such being the case, the Poor-law Commissioners hai
considered whether it Vk ould not be desirable to propose
a maximum rate. That question had been considered
by the Government, and it was thought by them that
maximum rate ought to be enforced. What he, therefore,
proposed by this Bill was, that supposing there was one
electoral division that had incurred expenses to the
amount of 75., and that electoral division could
only pay as., the other electoral division should
pay 2s. in addition to their ordinary rates.
He was told that it was objected to this proposal that it
would be an inducement to electoral divisions to extend
their expen liture to the full amount limited by the law la
order to obtain the aid given by the additional rate of 25.
on another electoral daliion. He could not however,
think that that would be the case, because :It
was obvious that if an electoral division were
enabled to support its poor with a 4s. rate there was
no inducement for them to increase the rates to 75., in
order to obtain the trifling relief he had mentioned from
some other electoral division. Now, some persons were
of opinion that it would be advisable to lay the rate upon
the electoral division, which should not have raised A
certain amount, but he was afraid if that proposition
wereadopted, the result would not be that which they were
anxious to arrive at. While some electoral divisionsmig"
expend a sum beyond the rate of 75., there might: he.
other divisions where rates might be under 55., and yet
be able to support their own pauperism by having re-
course to a rigid system of economy; and it ur
peered to him that it would be unfair to call
upon that division to contribute towards the,
support of another that might not have been so careful
in its expenditure. It seemed to him, however, that the
guardians of the unions would have a certain control
over the expenditure of each electoral division s and l)!
course the guardians would take care that the
expenditure was regulated by the strictest economy'
This proposal was widely different from a general rate.in
aid extending over the whole of the country, because 10
the case of a rate in aid there would be a difficulty in
controlling the expenditure, which could not be
urged against this proposal, because the guardial?'
of the different unions would find it to their
interest to look sharply after the expenditure. 123:
main objection to this proposal was, that the oi'a,
tress of late years had so crippled the resources of nsausY,
unions, that some of the electoral divisions were exceed'
ing a 7s. rate. The Committee, however, which had sea'
upon the subject had found that this objection applies
only to the western divisions, and he thought it wit
much better to adopt this proposal than have recourse to
unlimited rates in aid, ash gave security to the occupier,
and owners of land that these rates should never go
beyond a certain limit, and would have the erre°,
of inducing many parties to expend their oapitni
upon the land who were now deterred from
doing so by the fear of excessive rates. lie Pre-
posed, further, that the Poor-law Commissioners
should hive the power of settling and determining
the past liabilities of certain electoral divisions,
in contemplation of a new division of union.;
Upon this part of the subj. ct a aepord
had been made by a Commission apPointen
last year. It was, however, impossible to adopt he
the recommendations contained in that report, but
might state generally that he was disposed te
adopt the views contained in the report from time to tiro
as the Poor-law Commissioners should think fit. At the
same time he thought the question relating to the We—
r
houses might de disposed of now, and as tar as they deer
concerned ho was prepared at once to adopt the opinw
of the report, that it would trot be safe to make a further
Oivisiou of unions without accompanying such
measure with a proposal for increasing the number 0_
vi orkhouses.—(llear, hear.) He proposed to introduce
a clause, the effect of which he had alluded to on a fold
mer eccasion, namely, that the owner of land refssh
have paver of deducting a portion of the r
.
)
,
on account of his rent charges.— (Hear, he'as
Ha proposed to make an important alteration in the P
visions of the poor-law, with respect to the reduet•,:roo
which a tenant me& in his rent for the Purllse
of paying the poor-rate. He intended, b„
the future, that the tenant should have the
power of deducting half the rate to which he was "Tie
trom the rent. He also proposed to introduce a Pr°t be
sion with reference to the improvements which wig" re-
made upon the land—viz., that in order tShould
vent any disputes and litigation, a valuation
be made of the improvements, and that there shola.l_deabde
no increased valuation for a period of seven years- I, had
Fern complained in petitions and memorials whiciLsoo.
been presented to the House, that there was great di t
no
ragement given to the improvement of estates
value of
sooner bad a landed proprietor improved the vat' be
his property than the amount of rates ivhio"

bad toteat pay was increased ; and he proposed
all claims in respect of them should be substan-
tiated_ by an action of debt, in which a judg-
ment, as in common law, might be obtained. Then
with respect to the sale of land for the purpose of
paying the arrears due for poor-rate, he found
that there would be great difficulty in dating with
that*
subject, and as he wished to confine himself as much
Ile Possible to the amendment of the poor-law, he pro-
red that on the non-payment of the rates the
lessor should have the power of ousting the tenant.
lie did not think, however, there was any such extent
;t Pauperism in Ireland as might nut be relieved by the
rates as in ordinary years. He was surprizsd to find
that the amount of able-bodied labourers who, with
their
families, received relief from the poor law
during the months of June and July lest was
not greater than in ordinary years. The number stated
by the Poor-law Commissioners was 70,000. The num-
eer in England was much greater than in Ireland, being
SOme 90,000; but at the same time there was not such a
very
after great disproportion between the two. The quastiun,
all, was whether, supposing that there was not
every year a very great scarcity ; it was possible for
Ireland to go on supporting her poor by laws made as
efficiently as possible for that purpose. So far from the
Country being pauperised by the poor-law, it was very
much more likely to be much better cultivated if there
was some security for the proper reqef of the destitute
Poor. He begged leave to move to bring in the Bill.
Mr. STAFEuRD said the Noble Lord had stated that
he believed, in ordinary years, as distinct from years of
famine, rates could be levied amply sufficient to maintain
the population of that country. The difference between
those who had acted under the gu'dence of the
11°131e Lord and those who had ventured, session
atter session, to recommend a different course
of pone), with regard to this difficult subject
was this, that they had over and over again called the
attention of the House to the fact, that the famine in
Ireland did not, as the Noble Lord still seemed to
imagine, leave the country where it found it. The
poor-law in Ireland, as at present constituted, had a ten-
dency to feed pauperism rather than the income of
the country—and, though be had urged over and over
again, to the House, that owing to the inefficiency of the
Poor-law, thousands of lives had been and were sacrificed,
still the operation of the poor-law left the proportion be •
tvreen pauperism and the population as wide as ever. He
had to express his regret that the Government had de-
termined upon what he might call piecemeal legislation.
The Noble Lord had s lid he was not prepared to go
into the question of the sale of land for the arrears of
Poor-rates. hat he m•ea roe die& that considerable dis-
cussion had already taken place upon that point.
(Lord Joint Russ, it appeared to dissent.) Well,
then, he wished the Noble Lord would state
the nature of the measures which he intended
to bring forward on this subject. He began by detain;
with the most difficult question of all—the maximum
rate. It was true, he did not say the Government was
Pledged to an irrevocable rate of ss. and 2s. That
question he seemed to leave open fur discussion.
But he did not say what was to be done in
any electoral division where the rates exceeded 7s.
From what fund was distress to be alleviated when that
maximum had been reached? He ought to have ex-
plained from what source the funds were to come. It
Could not come from the rate in aid fund, since that
Would be sufficiently expended; it was difficult, there-
fore, to say from what source it would come, except
from the Imperial Treasury. But ho omitted to mention
another subject, which was mere important than either
the 2s. or ss. rate. It was a matter of the greatest possible
importance, namely, whether a ss. rate was to be merely
struck, or whether it was to be bona fide collected.—
(Cheers.) Let them have a 6d. rate, or of any other
amount, but whatever was its amount let it be actually
collected. He did not hesitate to say that unless the
area of taxation were rendered smaller than the Com-
missioners proposed to make it, the working of the poor-
law would be even much worse than it had been. He
considered that it would be far better if the Noble Lord
had brought in a complete measure on the subject of the
poor-laws for Ireland. He confessed that one of the
greatest wonders he met with in the Irish poor-law was
the mode in which the English and Scotch Members re-
garded it; because there was not one of them whose con-
stituents would not lose by the increased demands upon
their purse, in consequence of the neglect of proper ad-
vice upon the subject, which was too often observable.
The fact was, that unless they could render the poor-
law in Ireland favourable to employment, there was but
little hope of their rendering it permanently useful. The
workhouse test could not be properly applied, when their
workhouses were full; and after all, after considering all
the numerous ramifications of the question, they must
always come back to the old one. Where was the
money to come from? In many cases the recommenda-
tions of the Boundary Commissioners as to the new
unions, were strongly opposed; but if they were adopted,
twenty-one new unions, and twenty-one new union-
houses must be erected, and that too at the cost of the
Imperial Treasury. Pronouncing no opinion upon the
general question, ho should propose a resolution, the
object of which was to pat a stop to the tendency to
jobbing which this system certainly had. He should
propose that the opinion of boards of guardians should
be taken in reference to proposed unions, and that if the
guardians refuse to make new unions, it should be com-
petent to the Thundery Commissioners to negotiate
loans as they best might; but unless the guardians
would do PO on their own account, such boundary of
unions should remain undisturbed. As a gene-
ral rule, in assimilating the poor-law of Ireland
with that of Scotland, ho thought that the tax
should bear some proportion to the rent, and that
when that rent was very large, it should be borne by
the occupying tenant. The foundation of all their im
provemeuts in the poor-law was bawd upon the area of
taxation, although the Right Honourable G. ntleman the
Chancellor of the Exchever seemed very unwilling to
acknowledge it. The diminution of the area of taxa-
tion, was the change which they desired, but it was too
bold a measure to introduce as a substantive matter of
reform. They would approach it, however, as a pre-
liminary step, by recommending that it should be an in-
struction to the Boundary Commissioners to assimilate
ss nearly as possible the electoral divisions of Ireland to
the average size of the parishes in England, which, he
believed, was about 2,000 acres. Before the debate
closed.he hoped to hear from some member of the Go-
vernment that they intended to take steps with that
object in view, and he could assure him that he had only
taken part in the debate in order to point out what ap-
peared to him the material character of the measure
which should be introduced, in order to provide a better
operation of the poor-law in Ireland than had hitherto
prevailed.
Mr. W. FAG AN said, that although he agreed with
the Honourable Member who had just spoken, that
the diminution of the area of taxation might en-
courage employment, and that a great many thought
it would have the effect, still it seemed to be admitted
by every one, that it would also lead to clearances, wheh
would have a co tr sy tendency. He did not think it
justice that the Noble Lord should propose a greater tax
on the tenant, and that without assigning any reason
for the change. There was another point, also, upon
which he thought it light to make a complaint, and that
was, thet the persons deriving money from Government
offices were exempted from paying the rate. The land
lord of the Customhouse at Cork received annually 8001.
from that establishment, and did not pay a single
farthing. These were matters deserving of serious at-
tention, and he hoped that he might not have alluded to
them fruitlesdy.—(llear.)
Lord BERNARD said he wished to make a few ob-
servations on the subject of the area of taxation. He
believed that question to be the root of the whole mis-
chief, and without entertaining the extreme opinions
expressed by a great many, he certainly thought that
the present divisions for taxation were much too large.
The great question in Ireland was the area of taxation,
which people were anxious to have brought to a settle-
ment. It was stated at a meeting held at Bandon,
upon the subject of the poor-laws, that Lord Bantry
and his son had borrowed 12,0301. to effect improve-
ment, but only expended 2,3001. when they found,
in consequence of the area of taxation, that any
further expenditure would not alleviate the pressure
of taxation. In the union of which he was the chairman
he had suggested a rate in aid of emigration, but they
found that although they might remove by emigration
some able-bodied persons from the workhouse, their place
would be taken by other parties, who would be stimulated
to apply, not only from want, but through a desire to
obtain the means of emigration. He was convinced no
change in the poor-law would ba effected without auxi-
liary measures. Railways would be must beneficial to
the country. The grant made to the Southern Railway
had been attended with the greatest advantage. He
hoped the Government would take means to establish
railways in those parts of Ireland where they did
not exist.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Noble Lord would adopt
some provision, which would provide shelter for
the houseless poor, thousands of whom are wandering
about the country almost in a state of nudity._ The
workhouses also were in a most defective state, the .n
-Dates being left without a change of clothing. In the
dying One hundred per week. There was another point
with regard to the responsibility of poor-law officers
.to
which he wished to refer. Be considered that where ltfe
veasubject
alcst through their neglect, they ought to b
to
prosecutime He thought they ought to
„fide eon the criginal principle of the poor-law, and pro-
emrpPloymeut for the paupers of Ireland. With.
,ttteisl to the question of a small area of taxation, the
des tit would be that the landlords would clear off their
premiuute tenants. A small area of taxation would be a
!,1, for evictions.
Memb HERBERT denied that his Hon. Friend the
ruirein" for Northamptonshire said that a pot r-law was
Coring Ireland, as alleged by the Hon. Member for
on
hie side was it stated by any Honourable Member
Neith '4..e,,0f the 'Luse, to his personal knot~ ledge.
reenter ',ad" tley believe that her Majesty's Govere-
kliew ireitam ditlimlty to contend with—for all who
iude,ed
anid, moat be aware that that difficulty was
and though: aPPelline. character, but what they felt
creased fu Wtat that the difficulty had been in-
denied urfold by the course they adopted. tie
able f"t limited area of taxation was objectim-
i ' °r all k
n Ireland a new that the evils of the poor-law
in 1141104
all"so from the great area of taxation, which
the eases bed to clearances or evictions. Some
tnior, present unions consisted of 51,000 acres, and the
althou f litlruth in the county Clare, was 12,000,
gh i
actese. was well known they never exceeded 2,000
1 or his
ei°'ie L e,t
ord Own part, he believed the Bill of the
oule ba would do no good whatever, and that it
stoodun vouch better to leave matters even as they
the isinbeilev the present law. He would impress upon
load .e Ltore'
eteherefore, that his measure was totally
that `,7(Pla te
u)(//3° persons t the evil. The Noble Lord stated
rd jf, ons were receiving relief last July.
Rite'UN RUSSELL—Seventy thousand persons,
:=ir families
fatnilistititHEßl; ev
B. But factth ell, 70,000 persons, with their
as, that 60 great IVO the dirt.

culty now, particularly in the distressed districts, to as-
certain who was able• bodied and who was infirm, that
the returns from tihicli the Noble Lord took those num-
bers could not be depend: d on.
Mr. H. GRATTAN thought the measure was not
positively bad or positively good, and certainly the Noble
Lord 1 inaself did not expect it was such a one as to take
Ireland out of all her difficulties. Tine poor-law in Ire-
land had totally failed; that was clear a-cording to the
evidence of one of the Commissioners examined before a
Committee of the House. They talked of emigration,
but did history ever present such a spectacle as lour mil-
lion acres of land not cultivated, and yet the people
leaving it for want cf employment? The Hon. Gentle--
man then went into a detailed account of deaths by
starvation, and proceeded to state that, although a mil-
lion of mooey was collected every week in this country,
yet these things were suffered to exist in an integral
portion of the empire. Were they Christians, or men,
he asked, who looked on such things with apathy?
Such a calamity may be a misfortune to Ireland,
but it was a disgrace to England. In London they
would find absentees who cerrie d away two
three, and four millions of money from their
pauperised tenants, anti yet the people were dying of
starvation. They might talk of poor-laws, and of a
Rate in Aid Bill, but the question they should ask
themselves was. whether Ireland was really united to
England or not? He (Mr. Grattan) proposed in 1826
that the absentees should be taxed; and why, he would
ask, were they not taxed now, seeing that these same
men were the cause of all the difficulties which beset the
land? What was the sort of legislation attempted now?
He was glad to see the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth come back to the House, for he believed
he had c nirage to plan a remedy and to carry it into
execution.—(Hear, hear.) Let them send back the
Irish landlords to cultivate their lands ar.d do
their duty to their country. No, they would
not do so, because they knew the advantages
they derived from their residence; but there was a
Divine and just Providence punishing them now
for their misdeeds and misgovernment, and the misfor-
tunes they created were now coming back and falling on
their shoulders. He had received a letter from a lady
a few days ago, connected with a highly -respectable
family, in which it was stated that the family property
on which her jointure was charged had gone to ruin;
that it was, therefore, unable to pay her, and she was, in
consequence, reduced to a state of starvation. Then,
with regard to the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth, was it to be similar to that in-
famous course pursued in the time of James the First,
when the unfortunate inhabitants of an entire province
were driven out of their properties with the cry of "To
hell, or to Connaught?" What was to be their religion?
Who who were they to be, and of what nation com-
posed? If the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to get some
information of the manner in which plantations in for-
mer days were carried on, be might go to the theatre,
and the performance of the White Horse of the Peppers
would enlighten him. His Honourable Friend
the Member for Montrose was unwilling that more
grants should be made to Ireland. He was like others
of the petticoat gentry, who had no hearts and
no breeches pockets.—(Laughter) But the Irish people
wanted not the benevolence of England; but justice.
They wanted back their landlords; but this was refused,
and hence all the misery with which this country was
inflicted. To show the condition to which things were
reduced, he might mention, that in one case he knew of
an estate which cost some years ago 89,0001., and yet it
would now be sold for 25,0001. He would ask the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, whether the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland had not come over lately to urge
upon him the necessity of having rotatory Parliaments?
The Noble Lord shook his head, and he was sorry for it;
but the fact was, they preferred persecuting an indivi-
dual, as in the case of Mr. Duffy, to the bringing forward
of any measure which might benefit the country. In his
(Mr. Grattan's) part of the country they were inundated
by beggars from the east and west, who threatened by
their poverty to swamp whole districts. The deprecia
tion of landed estates was, in cons( quence, really fright-
ful, and instances had occurred to his own knowledge
which would show, more than anything he could say, the
condition of the country. In the county of Monaghan.
a property, which in 1845 was worth 1,000/., came down
in 1847 to 7001., in 1848 to 600/., and in January 1849,
to 5661., or more than one-half its original value. In the
county of Longford, a property in 11845, worth 1,5001. a
year, came down in 1846 to 1,2001, in 1847 to 1,000/,
and in 1848 to 8001. a year. In Cavan, another worth
in 1845, 1,170/. a year, fell in 1846 to 9401., in 1847 to
6001., in 1848 to 5001, and in the present year to 4001. a
year.—(Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord not go to
sleep—(Laughter)—the Noble was napping; but let him
listen to these statements and tremble.—(Laughter.) He
knew of instances where gentlemen in the province of
Leinster taxed themselves voluntarily to an amount ef
1 ls. in the pound, in order, if possible, to relieve the
country from the frightful calamity which pressed upon
her. He asked tor some great comprehensive measure,
that might unite the common interests of the empire.
Sir R. PEEL—I am exceedingly sorry at having
heard the speech of the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)
lam exceedingly sorry that it was my misfortune to
have been present during that speech. lam most un-
willing that any impediment should be thrown in the
way of the way of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor. General bringing forward what I believe to be
a measure of the deepest importance to the welfare of
Ireland—viz., a measure for facilitating the disposel of
encumbered estates in Ireland—(Bear, hear)—other-
wise I think the House would permit me to have some
opportunity, tefore these Irish debates close, of rectify-
big some great misconceptions which have taken place
with respect to the suggestions which I recently offered
—suggestions which I offered in no spirit of party feeling
—(Cheers)—from no wish to embarrass In r 111-,jesty's
Government—(Hear)—suggestions which I offered from
the deepest sympathy with the suffering condition of
Ireland, and from an earnest hope of contributing some-
thing to ameliorate her condition.—(Cheers.) Of all the
misconceptions which have taken place, however, the
only one which I shall now notice is the one which the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) has fallen into—a mis-
conception of the utmost importance—which is calcu-
lated to excite the deepest feelings in Ireland—which it
is impossible for me to listen to and remain silent, for
fear an inference might be drawn that, having been pre-
sent, and having heard it, and remained silent, I acqui-
esced for one moment in the justice of it.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman seems to suppose that I made
some proposition, in a sectarian spirit, for the purpose
of depressing the Roman Catholics and driving them
out of their present holdings, with the view of substi-
tuting a Protestant population. Now, Sir, the very
last thing that would enter my mind would be to
injure the Roman Catholics by substituting a
Protestant population in their stead.—(Hear, hear.)
My object was to elevate the Roman Catholics, to im-
prove their condition, and not to gain any paltry ad-
vantage by introducing in their place the members of
any other faith.—(Cheers.) When did the Hon. Gen-
tl in hear Iron] me the proposition that, in case there
should be a redistribution of property, the Protestants
should have the advantage? Was I not aware that the
man Catholics had a large amount of capital which
found no vent in the purchase of landed property? Did
he think I was not aware that it was stated by the Cona•
miseion over which Lord Devon presided that one great
evil in Ireland was, that there was a large amount of
accumulated property in trace and commerce which found
no opportunity of investment in land? Does the Hon. Gen-
tleman suppose that, in case of facilities being granted
for the purchase of land in Ireland, I wished to exclude
the Ronan Catholic merchants of Cork and Waterford
from having an opportunity of making an investment
which they cannot now make on account of the barba-
rous tenure of land? The Hon. Gentleman says I wish
to drive the noblemen and landed gentry out of Ire-
land.
Mr. GRATTAN—You said so.
Sir R. PEEL—No, Sir, I said no such thing. I wish
to drive out no man; I wish to do no violence to the
rights of property.—(Loud cheers.) But, what I say is,
that if there are nominal proprietors who have no real
interest in the land, who derive small incomes from it
that are frittered away, not in the improvement of the
land, but in law expenses in Dublin; that if I can give
them facilities for rescuing themselves from their em-
barrassed condition, and transferring their estates to
others who will perform the duties incumbent upon those
who hold land, I am not injuring them; I an, in fact,
doing them a benefit instead of an injury, and I am at
the same time conferring an advantage upon the country,
by enabling men with new capital and new hopes, new
feelings and new aspirations with respect to its applica-
tion, to occupy, to the extent which they can occupy,
consistently with the maintenance of the rights of pro-
perty, the encumbered and vacated soil. Injure the Roman
Catholic peasantry by the measure I proposed ! Why,
Sir, did I not hear the other night the Chancellor of the
Exchequer say that, after four successive years of
famine, in one union 15,000 persons were driven from
their homes helpless and friendless ? Is that a state of
things which the Honourable Gentleman would wish to
retain ? I ask now if there is in Algiers or in the
Punjaub after your successful military operations, or in
any other portion of the civilized or barbarized world—
will you show me a country, I ask, in which 15,000
people have been driven helpless and homeless from
their houses, and exposed to the inclemency of the
weather ?—(Hear, hear.) And yet here is one
union in which that has taken place. I eon-
few! that ever since I heard it I have dwelt upon it in
the hope of hearing that it was untrue. Just consider
for a moment what is the case—that the strength of
the people having been diminished by four successive
of penury and privation, there should be, not in
ya
ten,er ears of
not twenty, but in one. union, 15,000 human beings
driven out by evictions, eeectments, and legal processes
di H I ear, mar.)
suggestions my main object was to
When I offered my from their houses, helpless and filen es .
people of England the pre-
lace. I aft afraid
that after expend.
e e
great expenditure
jusiwhich
hev owhich h
ktmheietgi tint, nsrduesgmgoali
ad
her difficulties, they might be
my object was to re-
moveing 9,000,0(10/ or 10,0.0(h1,0t0h0e/.
tiinhvvreasiciueigngtoleroeleatieldinfprloatine
the magnitude of the su idec
abeve all—for I cared not
their prejudices;
about my plan or
House of Commons that, no.
rest in point of justice
upon
p s t the x .
niary cousidera•
1 as in point of pecu
and policy, as wee
pen assure, my
sug'e
twithstandinP;etts
tho condition of Ireland, in
it was your
other consideration to
sitni°teri—t:
that, so far as English-
be subordinate—(Hear, hear)
respecttLion, to
atoppwlyh
cohu s
be levl
ieeusrvleltea.orel
very
I
t the navigation-laws
future, there is no questionh—
"it in point of import-
men are concernoi, looking to the the
nor any other—that approac.des of the
s that if I can, con-
acee.—(Cheers ) What I said
encuuabrancers upon the estates, fact
sistently with justice to the noteiwnaaliptraotpertiehteortre
s aud who will
their land to others who have the m enaenw,
hopes, I shall
enter upon it with new views and awnhsferaroef
on account of the encumbered position o
but
not only benefit these who are in this..miserfabthleeicronedsittaitoens
And the existing, legal difficulties as to their transfer,

I may possibly lay the foundation—not for immediate
improvement—that I never contemplated--but the foun-
dation ultimately of a better order of things.—(Hear,
hear.) After careful re flection I retain my deliberate
conviction that all your other measures, the rate in aid,
the alteration of the poor laws, the advance of money for
railways, will all do posi'ively nothing, unless you can
remedy that which I believe to be the great social evil of
Ireland—the difficulty of effecting the transfer of land to
the possession of those who are competent to discharge
those duties which the possession of land involves.
When I spoke of the settlement of Ulster I knew perfectly
well the construction that would be placed upon the re-
ference. I knew perfectly well there would be persons
who would say that I was proposing in the 19th cen-
tury that which might have been tolerable in the 17th.
I knew it would be asked, " What do's he propose to
do? Does he propose to drive the Roman Catholic in-
habitants to Connaught or to hell?" Nut to Connaught,
certainly, for that is the district with which I proposed
to deal; end as to the other, it is the last I should in-
tend.—(Hear.) I said that I was aware that it was 4
fatal blot upon the plan of James I.; that it made reit-
gious distinetions—that it gave religious preferences—
that it desired to expel the Roman Catholic inhabitants
for the purpose of introducing others upon whose alle-
giance there was a greater claim. I said this for the
purpose of preventing the possibility of my thing sub-
jected to the charge which after three weeks has been
preferred, that it was my object to expel the Roman
Catholics. I have no sush object.—(Cheers) What
I wished was, by creating a demand fur labour, to
give the Roman Catholic percent an opportunity of
maintaining himself in independence, My object was
to secure to the Roman Catholic labourer, if
possible, 8d„ or perhaps Is. a day—for that must be the
foundation for all improvement in Ireland.—(Bear,
hear.) I never believed the doctrine by which some
have attempted to relieve themselves of the obligations
belonging to them, that there is any inherent inability
or indisposition to work on the part of the Irishlabourer.
—(Hear hear.) I ask any English gentleman, who has
met an Irish labourer on the road, and has entered into
conversation with him, as I make a habit of doing when-
ever I meet otie, whether he has not left him with an
admiration of his acuteness and his natural politeness,
and with an impression that nature never intended him
fur a serf?—(Loud cheers.) It is sometimes supposed
here, that the Irish peasants are a turbulent class of
men, whom no law can restrain, and no cultivation im-
prove; but I ask those who have seen them in the coun-
ties of England, whether it is possible to see men more
obedient to the law, more patient and forbearing under
much provocation, more industrious, more desirous to
remit small sums to their friends out of the proceeds of
their severe labour, for the purpose of paying their rents
or keeping their families out of the poor-house? I
therefore repudiate the doctrine that there is some inhe-
rent slothfulness or inactivity or want of enterprise in
the Irish peasantry. At the moment when the Hon.
Member (Mr. Grattan) was charging me with a desire
to expel the Mali landlords and introduce English ones,
I was engaged in reading a letter I had received—one
of many hundreds I am receiving every day—which
gives an account of an English company, their applica-
tion of capital to Irish property, and the consequences
of it. It is an account of the proceedings of the Dra-
per's Company, who are entitled to a large estates in Ire-
land under the settlement of James The Drapers'
Company proceeded for a long time in giving a lease
constantly renewable to a single family. In 1817, how
ever, the lease fell out and the company refused to renew
it to the Rowley family, the lessees. This company of
English merchants and tradesmen residing in London,
with no intimate knowledge of Ireland, but influenced
by the spirit of Englishmen, and by the sense of justice
of Englishmen, determined to make an inquiry about
their property. The state in which they found it is de-
scribed in the first report of a deputation which they
sent over to Ireland in 1817—:
" ' The bulk of the holdings would be inconsiderable
in point of quantity, even if entire, but when subdivided
are very small. There is a cabin and sometimes two on
each holding and subdivision of holding. These cabins
are mere mud huts, covered sometimes with straw, at
other times with reeds, or swards, and are but rarely
water. tight. The natural soil is the floor. Sometimes
there is a hole in the roof to serve for a chimney, at
other times the door serves as the channel for the exit of
the smoke, and generally, but not universally, there is a
partition between that part which is devoted to the use
of the family and that part which is applied to the use of
the cow, the horse, the goat, or the pig.' And their
course of husbandry is thus described They grew
nothing but oats, potatoes, and flax, and the
course in which they follow each other teems
rather to be accidental than regular ; the same
piece of land is frequently sown two years suc.
cessively nth oats. The small quantity of manure
which is made upon the farm is applied to the potato
crop; fellows are never made. The land is sometimes
said to be laid down in grass, but no grass seeds of any
sort are ever sown. None of the leases contain any
covenants or stipulations as to the course of crops or
cultivation of the land; in every respect every lessee is
as much at liberty thereon as if he was the owner of the
fee. It would not be literally true to say that there is
not a hedge or a tree upon the estate, but there are so
few that no advantage can be derived from them.' Such
was the condition of the Drapers' estate in 1817. 'The
comp any, however, were not discouraged. They went
to work with the zeal, energy, and perseverance, honesty
of intention, and singleness of purpose, the characteristic
qualities of the British merchant ; and such has been the
success of their labours, that not a trace remains of the
condition of the estate as described in the above report.
Comfortable, neat, and substantial farmhouses and
cottages, with suitable offices, have been substi•
tuted for the smoky cabins. Thu farms have been
enlarged and fenced, an improved system of
agriculture has been introduced, the subdivisions of
farms prohibited, leases have been made on the most
approved plan of English farm leases, with covenants for
making and maintaining improvements, and for enforcing
a proper rotation of crops, and these covenants have
been rigidly enforced. Wild and previously impenetra-
ble districts have been opened by judiciously formed
roads, extensive plantations of timber, as well as orna-
mental trees, have been m ide, and are now in a flourish-
ing state. Moneymore, the principal village on the
estate, has risen from a poor hamlet into a prosperous
town."
Did this company, however, proceed in a sectarian
spirit ? Did these Protestants deeply attached, no
doubt, to their own religious views—neglect the fair
claims of those who differed from them? No.—
" A handsome church and Presbyterian meeting-
house, have been built in it at the sole expense of the com-
pany, and liberal contributions made for the improve-
ment of the Roman Catholic chapel, and an annual
salary is paid by the company to each minister of those
respective places of worship. There has been also built
in the town by the company an excellent and now much
frtquented hotel; and the trade in it has increased so
much as to require the establishment of a branch from
one of the Belfast banks."
The example thus set by the Drapers' Company has
been followed, I believe, by the Fishmongers' and other
companies. I confess that I look to great advaneiges
arising from the introduction of new capital and new
views into Ireland ; and my firm conviction is that the
relation of the Roman Catholic to the soil will be greatly
improved thereby. As I happened to be reading the
letter from which I have just read an extract to the
House when the Lion. Gentleman attributed to me those
views, with respect to the banishment of the Roman
Catholic population, I could not resist the temptation of
replying to the Hon. Gentleman and rectifying his mis-
conception. I trust I have now satisfied the house that
it would be my last object to injure the Roman Catho-
lics.—(Hear, hear.) As lam unwilling to prevent the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General)
from stating the views of the Government with respect
to the measure they contemplate, I shall not attempt to
notice any other misconceptions ; but I could not be
present and hear this misconception without removing
what, it justifiable, must have created, among the great
mass of the population of Ireland, a most unavourable
and unjust impression.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said that the Right Hon.
Baronet was totally mistaken. Ile had made no such
charge as he seemed to imagine, but he said he bsdeved
that ultimately that would be the effect if his proposi-
tions were carried out.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he would take upon
himself to assure the Right Hen. Baronet that the opi-
nion of the people of Ireland generally was favourable
to the plan he had propounded, and that no improper
motives were attributed to him.
Mr. 'FLAHERTY said his constituents were highly
pleased with the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet, and
on their behalf he begged to thank him. He com-
plained bitterly of the do-nothing policy of the present
Government, and seeing no prospect of their introducing
any measures beneficial to Ireland, he had left their side
of the House altogether and taken his seat on the oppo-
site benches.—(A laugh.) Ilea as, however, no party
man, but would support good measures from whatever
party they originated.
Mr. BRIGHT said there was no doubt this Govern-
ment and other Governments bad been to blame for the
manner in which they had acted towards Ireland. They
bad adopted coercive instead of useful measures, but
still he thought that Irish Members were to blame
themselves, as they had not only never brought for-
ward any useful measure for Ireland, but were always
disagreeing amongst themselves as to what measures
were useful.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL submitted to the House that
the proper course would be to allow him to bring in his
Bill, and then to hear the Solicitor-General explain the
provisions of the Bill which Government meant to bring
forward with reference to the sale of encumbered estates
in Ireland.—(Dear, hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON said that he rose to repudiate
the charge which had been made by the Hon. Member
for Manchester (Mc. Bright) against the Irish Mem-
bers.—(Hear, hear.) When the Hon. Member talked
about divisions among the Irish Members, he (Sir %V.
Barron) should like to ask him when English Members
agreed upon great public questions?—(Hear, hear.)
He had only to look to the bench below him (the Mi•
nisterial), were the Right Honourable M tuber the
Secretary for the Admiralty (Mr. Ward) and the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government agreed on
the subject of the Irish Church and the appropriation
clause?—(Loud cries of" Hear, hear.") Looking to the
opposite side, he would ask, did the Hon. Mc mber (Mr.
Disraeli) and the Right Hon. Baronet who was seated
beside him (Sir Robert Peel), did these gentlemen agree
upon the great question of free trade which so agitated
the country.—(Laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.")
among
witha d t the
the
It might suit newspaper scribblers to ring the changes
about the
topiche Manchester school—(Hear, hear)—but he denied
that the Iris
asbteos bewere expected among public men
questions, than
Me, m
independently to that House. He
knewdivisiens was a f
favourite
o u therit Irish
one Members,
gentlemen
who were returned
M
lf•sufficiency among the gentlemen
was a great deal o Cries of "Linr,
of the Manohoter N
Hon i M
eember for
would tell the anchester, that there

hear")—and he would add, also, that they exhibited
too much of vanity, and he would tell the Hon. Member
that Ireland had suffered great misery from the effects of
the policy which the Manchester school had succeeded in
carrying out.—(Cri, s of " Hear" fr ens the Opposition.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL rose to move for leave
to bring in a Bill further to facilitate the sale of encum-
bered estates in Ireland. To make the plea which her
Majesty's Government proposed intelligible it was ne-
cessaty that he should recall to the recollection of the
House what they had endeavoured to do by the Encum-
bered Estates Bill of last session, and to describe the
manner of carrying it into effect. The modes by which
it was intended to facilitate the sale of encumbered es-
tates were embodied in a few general and distinct provi-
sions of that Bill. One of these was to proceed by sale,
under the authority of the Court of Chancery. Another
was to proceed by sale, not under the authority of the
Court of Chancery, but so that the purchase money
should be paid into the Court of Chancery, and
distributed among the parties who were entitled
to the estate, having an interest either as encum-
brancers or as owners. Both provisions had proved
wholly ineffectual up to the present time.—(Hear, hear.)
Totally independent of the measure itself, there were
peculiar circumstances connected with Ireland, which
made it very difficult for any measure to succeed. The
House would bear in mind that it was of course essential
to the success of any plan that the class of purchasers
should exist; and he believed there was very great diffi-
culty in disposing of land in the circumstances which
had latterly existed in Ireland. But undoubtedly there
were difficulties in regard to the provisions of the Bill
which created great impediments to its effectual operation.
With respect to the sale which had been proposed to be
carried on out of court, it was then thought that the
most efficient plan would be to sell the estate at once,
and to have any dispute which might arise settled inde-
pendently of the question of money. But, as it was ne-
cessary to give an absolutely indefeasible title, a series of
notices, consents, and registrations was required; and,
further, the estate must be sold for its full value. The
forms of proceeding involved much expense, and the object
of the present measure was to obviate those difficulties
by resorting
which had been
esortingto acoursseugwgehsitced hwhays undoubtedly not
and which had been before the Government several
fora
consi-
derable period; but they thought it best to create a com-
mission, who should be able to perform the functions
which had been performed up to the present time by the
Court of Chancery, who should be unfettered by the
gentlemen,
rules of procedure which now existed—(Hear, hear)—
and who should also be-able to perform their duties
without the expense arising from fees, and from the
antiquated system which could not bo immediately re-
moved from that Court. The present proposal was
not without precedent; and there was one in a case
which was closely allied, and which seemed to have suc-
ceeded; he meant the West India Commission, appoint-
ed to distribute 20,000,000 of money among the owners
of West India estates. They had to inquire who were the
parties owners of estates, because the compensation was
to be given to owners and inctunbrancers according to
their priority. Tbey performed their functions not only
without blame, but with the greatest possible praise, at
very little expense, with very few appeals, and to the
general satisfaction of those persons whose rights they
had to adjudicate upon, and of the public at large.—
(Hear, hear.) It was proposed, therefore, to appoint a
Commission of three paid commissioners with a secretary;
that those commissioners should follow the same course
with the West India Commission ; that was, should
themselves frame a set of rules for their guidance, to be
submitted to the Privy Council of Ireland, and, when
sanctioned by it, to have the same force as if they had
been enacted on the part of Parliament ; that the Com-
mission should have power from time to time to alter
and vary those rules First, it was proposed
to lay a restriction on the Commissioners that they
should not frame rules by which any fees
should be levied. It was further proposed that the
Commission should deal with applications which might
be made to it within three years from its appointment ;
though
continue it
wouldfor
two y
probablyears more. be
t wasnecessary
proposed t h a t
to
should
invest the Commissioners with all the powers of the
Court of Chancery in respect to the production of evi-
dence. Where application was made by the owner or
incumbrancer of an estate they. would be empowered,
having made such preliminary inquiry as they might
think proper, to proceed to a sale of the property in
such manner end in sech portions as they might judge
best. With respect to the conveyance, it was proposed
that the form of the schedule should be such as was
usual in the conveyance of Crown lands, which, being
executed by the Commissioners, should vest the property
in the purchaser and give a title good against all chat-
Is was proposed also that the
lseanmgee.p—ow( He
resaor,f
putting
a
purchaser in possession should
be given as if a writ of possession were ex: cuted. It
would not be necessary for him to bring writs of eject-
ment, so that he should be put in possession of the land
at as early a period as possible, and with as simple a
title as possible, and with a title not to be impeached.
It was proposed that the money should b_e into thee
among the parties entitled to a share. Questions might
Bank of Ireland; that it should be divided at once
be raised as to the persons entitled to the property; and it
would be for the Commissioners to determine the rights
of parties. Theoretically, though scarcely practically,
it might happen that the Commissioners would have to
dispose of the land of some person who was not pre-
sent, and of whom they knew nothing. Any difficulty
on that score would be prevented by careful examination
on the part of the Commissioners. Though there were
few good marketable tithes in Ireland, all parties having
interests w ould be ascertained, and the Commissioners
would be able to adjudicate so as not to dispose of
the property of any person whom they had not
heard. lie said so with the greater confidence, be-
cause in the West India Commission, by which large
estates bad been disposed of, and before which numbers
of claims had been discussed, he believed there aas not a
single instance in which parties had complained that
persens having a title had been overlooked, or that
money had been paid to any one to which he was not
entitled. If the case, however,
should occur in the pre-
sent instance, Parliament might deal with it; but it
seemed advisable to exclude any provision on the sub-
ject from a Bill intended to carry out measures which
were generally thought essential to the regeneration of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary also that the
Commissioners should have power to send cases for the
opinion of a court of law. Where the Court of Chan-
cery had made any decree or perfected any operation,
the Commissioners should hold themselves bound by
such decree, and should have power to complete the in-
quiries so originated. There must be a species of con-
current jurisdiction between the Commissioners and the
Court of Chancery. It was necessary to determine as to
which should have the priority for the purposes of the
Bill If they created a special tribunal, and gave it certain
high functions for those purposes, they could not render
its jurisdiction effectual without vesting in it all the
functions and powers necessary to the attainment of the
object in view. Not only were the Commissioners not to
he prevented from dealing with cases pending before the
Court of Chancery, but in all cases where a decree of
sale had been made by the Court of Chancery and not
carried into effect, they should carry it into effect. The
Commissioners would never act without application being
made to them. When application was made to them
they would have a paramount jurisdiction, proceedings
in the Court of Chancery would be stayed, and it was by
the Commissioners that sales would be c irried into effect.
An appeal would be given from the Commissioners, fol-
lowing the precedent of the West India Commission, to
a Judicial Committee of the Irish Privy Council, to be
selected by the Lord-Lieutenant. It was proposed to
place a restriction on appeals, giving the Commissioners
power to decide whether the case was one in which an
appeal ought to be taken. These were the general pro-
visions and objects of the Bill. It was desirable that
titles hereafter in Ireland should be put on such a foot-
ing as to prevent them from getting into the same stater
of complication as now existed. To make provisionfe
that purpose formed no part of the object of
yet have generally a beneficial effect. Every acre of
land sold under this commission would
beera
Bill, which, though temporary in its op the present
n,would
would indeed be a
great misfortune if, after the held by a title
which could not be questioned.
• naptto e
the same state of
years, estates should fall again
lapse of some 30 or 40
confusion as now existed, with only this difference, that
the incumbrances might be of 30 or 40 years instead of
60. It was the wish of the Government to make a
change in the system of judgments, so as to prevent
them from becoming a permanent charge on the land.
At present, when money was raised upon property
in Ireland, the judgments were registered and created
a general incumbrance on the estate. That evil
would be remedied by an enactment which, however,
would not have a retrospective effect. The Govern.
ment had also considered whether it would not be pos.
sible to introduce an improved system of registration in
Ireland. That question was still under consideration,
but the measure relating to it was not sufficiently ma-
tured to allow of its introduction into the House in the
course of the present session; besides, as the Commission
on registration was about to make its report, it might
be desirable to wait until that document should be before
the House. The feeling of Government, however, was
that it was not enough to liberate the land of Ireland
from incumbrances, but that it was necessary, also, to
take advantage of its freed state to prevent it being
again reduced to its former condition. The great object,
however, which the Government, and, he believed, the
Right Hon. Baronet, who had suggested a measure of
this description, had in view was to afford an oppor-
tunity for the investment of capital which would
result in the employment of labour.—(" Hear, hear,"
from Sir Robert Peel.) A wide discretion
must necessarily be invested in the Commissioners ;
they must have the power of deciding against the sale of
metolatuijotein,s
tsbilfely:uitglid)
entlhaaeddecoiptrotciuotmhn:Thotaf nft,c)hr-asttioi
acftot seempuhruesrcepa.osseec:
an estate, even though application for that purpose were
en thn
et ot
hotoththiegemhr
hind,otieet
itohlisymwigohutld
be hivem apdoew ebrytopasretlileganilei
tsetraetestocdn, appli-
cation ii-t
should appear that the nominal landlord was unable to
perform the duties which properly attached to the owner
of land.--(" Hear," from Sir R. Peel.) It was by no
means certain that the success of the measure which he
was recommending for the adoption of the House was
beyond all doubt. 'lt was certain, that unless
a class of persons could be found disposed
to invest capital in Ireland, it was impos-
sible that any measure for facilitating the sale of
estates could bo productive of benefit. Some persons
might say of the present measure, as was said of the
Incumbered Estates Bill last session, that it would be
inoperative, and that no sales would be effected under it;
whilst others might allege that it would deluge the
market with land, and thereby greatly depreciate the
value of that description of property, to the injury of all
classes of the community. The latter evil would doubt-
less be guarded against by the good sense of the Com-
missioners: and as to the other objection, that no tales
would take place under the Bill, there appeared to be

reasonable ground for hoping that a large quantity of
land would be brought into the market and disposed of
judiciously. Many persons doubtless would he of opinion
that this measure wont a great deal too tar; they woud be
shocked by the appointment of a Commission, even for a
short period, to supersede to some extent the functions of
the Court of Chancery, and to dispose in a somewhat
arbitrary manner of the property of various persons.
He could only say to these psraons that the proceeding
was justified by the emergency.—(Hoar, hear.) The
only mode of providing employment for the people of
Ireland was by enabling a moneyed class to obtain posses-
sion of the land, and the only way in which that object
could be effected was that proposed by the Bill, unless,
indeed, the House should think proper to adopt a
stronger measure and give the Commissioners power to
deal with estates as the Enclosure Commissioners dis-
posed of waste lends. He had now stated the provisions
of the Bill as briefly as he was able to do.—([-Isar,
hear.) It would be his duty subsequently to introduce a
short Bill which would contribute to the end which this
measure was intended to achieve. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman concluded with moving for leave to bang in
the Bill.—(Che. rs.)
Mr. STUART said, they wero all agreed as to the
propriety of affording every facility for the sale of estates
in Ireland incumbered so that they were of no use to the
parties interested in them; but they would not proceed
far in their work of a (opting measures for that purpose
before they found that their labour was one of a very
difficult nature. The mensure of last year had turned
out a total failure, not owing to the circumstances of the
times, but because it was a measure of complicated
enactments on a difficult subject; not one of which was
understood by Hon. Members who so earnestly called on
the House to give it their support.—(Bear, hear.) Be-
fore such a measure should have passed they ought to
have properly understood the difficulties they had to
meet; and what he should have wished to have heard
from his Hon. and Learned Friend on that occasion, and
which he bad not heard, was a statement which would
have enabled the House to comprehend what those diffi-
culties were with which they had to deal, He appre-
hended the principal difficulty was, that from the number
of individuals having an interest in those incumbered
estates, with which they were unwilling to part, they
could not proceed to sell them without doing violence to
the rights of somebody.—(Loud cries of " Hear' hear.")
They heard the other night, that in a bill filed in refer.
ence to one of them in Chancery, there was no less than
43 defendants, and that was what caused the difficulty.
It was not an easy thing to tell the mortgagee) who was
ninth or tenth on the list, that they would put up his
property for sale whether he would or not, and hence the
injury to private rights. It was said they had a prece-
dent in the Commission which was appointed to distri-
bute the grant to the West India planters, as compensa-
tion for the abolition of slavery. But that was no pre-
cedent at all. Here it was not a distribution of money,
it was an interference with other people's rights, and a
sale of their lands whether they would or not; and, at
all events, the Commission referred to, when a disputed
case did come before it, instantly placed the money in
Chancery, until it was decided who had the proper claim
to it. That .ought to be done in the present case. So
far as he understood the measure, he thought it would
meet with no better success than did the measure of last
year.—(Hear.)
Mr. KEOG a said, as he had been in the habit of
accusing the Government for not bringing forward mea-
sures for Ireland of a beneficial nature, he considered
he ought at the earliest moment state, that he felt a
step had now been taken in the right direction in the
measure which had just been detailed to the House.—
(Cheers.) He had some understanding as to the object
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite in bring-
ing forward the measure; and he thought his object a
good and great one, it being to relieve Ireland from the
greatest infliction which could oppress any country, the
difficult complicated, expensive, interminable litigation
of the 'Court of Chancery.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had preceded him had said that
it was the number of incumbrances of Irish estates
which caused the present untoward state of things, but
that he denied. It was not the number of incum-
brancest, but it was the expensive procrastinating tri-
bunal to which the investigation of those incumbrances
were submitted, which caused the evil.—(Hear, hear.)
He therefore highly approved of the plan of the Govern-
ment, which proposed at once to liberate the land.
It was the land of Ireland out of which they were to
supply labour to the people of Ireland. It was in conse-
quence of that land being bound up and rendered use-
less that so much poverty and distress now prevailed in
Ireland ; and, as he understood the proposition of the
Government, it was to emancipate that land from the
trammels in which it was at present held, and render it
beneficial for the people of that country.—(Cheers.)
That was to be done in the speediest way, though with a
due regard to the interests of the parties at present con-
nected with it; and while the House never would wil-
lingly perpetrate an aes of injustice,:yet they had to deal
with a serious case—with a country on the verge of ruin;
and as never yet was any serious reforms effected with-
out some one suffering more or less, they ought not to
withhold their sanction to such a measure as the present,
even though some parties might suffer by in—(lean)
Mr. WOOD said the failure of the measure of last
session was evidently owing to the circumstances in
which Ireland was at the time placed, for who could
have embarked their capital in Ireland at a time when
the general social condition of that country was in the
most disorgania d state, and when even, at the present
time, they were obliged to keep upwards of 3U,000 troops
in the country for the preservation of the peace. There
was still a danger that the Commissioners might find a
difficulty in acting so as to carry out the spirit of the
Act, as he understood they were not to attempt to
effect any sale until application was ma le to them by
the parties interested. He thought that it would be
well to wait for some time to see what the result of
this Commission would be, as he anticipated it would
obviate many of the difficulties and delays which at
present attend the sale of property in the Court of
Cancery. He thought that the two important facts
to which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had
some time since alluded in his speech, were very worthy
of the consideration of the House, the first of which had
been also adverted to by the late Member for Kinsale
(Mr. Watson), relative to the duties and expenses of re-
ceivers of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and the
other which had been fully proved by Captain Hamilton,
relative to the certainty of 27,000 persons, who reside
on encumbered estates, falling on the unions. He (Cap-
tain Hamilton) said that if the landowners had capital to
employ those persons, that there would be no requisition
whatever for poor-rates. He (Mr. P. Wood) thought
that it would be most judicious to accelerate, by every
possible means, such a plan as that before them, to in-
vest this property in the hands of capitalists, and to give
employment to those labourers who were at present on
the land.—(Hear, bear.) He believed that this
measure would not tend to injure any party;
but would do much service to that country gene-
rally; yet he should say that if any party were in-
terfered with, it would be in a very trifling degree, and
that such a case was not unprecedented, as could be seen
by referring to the 20,000,0001. given to the West India
proprietors, or in the case of railway property, when
parties were obliged, by an Act of that House, to sell
part of their estate. Ile also rejoiced that the benefits
to be conferred on Ireland would not be confined to the
present Bill, but that a Bill for the registration of pro-
perty would be introduced next session ; because he felt
assured that it was owing to a want of title that much
of the difficulty of selling land in Ireland was to be attri-
buted, and hoped that such a Bill would b
also e intro-
duced for England, as there was a very great necessity
for it. He considered that it would be well that this
Commission would have a power to refer to the Court
of Chancery, so that the estates in that Court might be
improved, as the mortgagees generally do not care for
the improvement of the property from which they derive
their money, provided they get it.—(Laughter.)
He
should add chat he felt assured, notwithstanding what
bad been said against gentlemen of the legal profession,
that those gentlemen were most anxious for such a mea-
sure as that then before them, as being calculated to im-
prove the condition of that couutry.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said he could assure the lion. and
Learned Gentleman who had just sat down that he, for
one, never meant to insinuate that the body to which he
belonged were unwilling to cos operate in reforms of the
law. He himself was concerned in attempts at improv-
ing the law by the consolidation of the criminal law, and
other measures which had been brought fur ward of a
similar nature, and he was bound to say that in general
there was on the part of the legal profession the most
Jealous desire to co-operate in the improvement of the
law, at whatever pecuniary cost to themselves.—(Bear,
hear.) Now, without relinquishing any of the opinions
which he expressed on two former occasions, he wished
to reserve to himself entire liberty with respect to the
details of the measure before him. He could not, how-
ever, avoid expressing his cordial satisfaction at the
course pursued by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General, and at the general purpose and object
of the measure which he had introduced.—(Hear.) He
believed that the ordinary courts of law were admirably
suited for the administering of justice between
man and man, when nothing extraordinary occurred.
Yet when a great social difficulty had to be contended
with, his opinion was that they must step in beyond the
limits of their ordinary rules of justice and establish
some special tribunal untrammelled by the ordinary
technicalities of courts for the purpose of solving these
difficulties. Such was the course pursued on more than
one recent occasion. But three or four years since,
nearly all the counties of South Wales were in a state of
insurrection on account of turnpike tolls. There was
scarcely one in that House who was not familiar with
the Rebecca riots. The Queen's troops were resisted,
and it was found necessary to apply a remedy. They
sent down a commission of inquiry, and they found it
necessary to place these turnpike tolls on a new footing
and peace was restored. A new tribunal was established.
The Commissioners awarded 701., 601., and in some
cases only 101., instead of 1001. These awards were ge-
nerally acquiesced in, and there were but two appeals
from the Special Commission. Well, a few years
since, there was also a compulsory commutation of tithes.
Tho voluntary commutation did not succeed. The Noble
Lord brought in a Bill, the object of which was to in-
form all parties that if up to the 11th of October, 1838,
they made voluntary agreements as to tithes, they might
do so ; but, if they failed to do so, then provision was
made for compulsory commutation. A; special commis-
sion was appointed to decide between the parties ; the
questions that came before them were very difficult of
adjudication, but ho believed that special tribunal brad
given satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) There
more difficult question when they determinedwtaos abolish
slavery in the West Indies. Compensation was to be
given to the owners of slaves for everywhsl oalvaeo, f and
20,000,0001. was to be distributed. The
colonies had different usages. They resolved to meet
these difficulties. They found it necessary to depart
from the ordinary course of proceeding, and they there-
fore determined that a commission should be appointed.
The lion. and Learned Gentleman the Member
for Newark said it was an easy thing to do
tbia•il,WlN oily PcersarY 19 allot

to each owner the amount of money due. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman thought it an easy thing to de-
termine the value of each slave in Jamaica and Trinidad
and to apportion it to the owners. If that was correct,
it would be a good answer to the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman the Solicitor-General. But these were not the
duties of the Commission. They had a most compli-
cated duty to perform independently of this. They had
to investigate and decide upon the Interests of " married
women, infants, lunatics, and persons of insane or un-
sound mind, and all other persons labouring under either
legal or natural incapacity, or inability." They were
also to lay down rules and regulations which, if ap-
proved of, were to have the force of law. But, besides
this, the slave partook of the real property to a hich ho
was attached. Whenever the one was mortgaged the
other was mortgaged also. How did that differ from the
case before them? Any person having any claim or inte-
rest in any mortgage judgment, &c., upon any slave or
slaves so to be manumitted, should prefer such claim be-
fore the commission, who were to decide upon it. Such
were the duties of the Commissioners, and h e did not see
how they differed in the present case. In dealing with
this complicated question of landed property he believed
unless they appointed a special tribunal—observing all
the rights and principles of law and equity, avoiding
doing injustce to any man, but unrettered by technical
rules—they would not get at the root of the sod,' diffi-
culties of Ireland.—(Hear.) The gre it and main object
was to give a clear, simple, Parliamentary title.—(Bear,
hear.) No person would now purchase an estate in Ire-
land, and with it a loss, as he knew to be the case, and,
in addition, perhaps, a duel, for anything the purchaser
might know.—(Loud laughter.) If they gave the pur-
chaser assurance against indefinite charges for poor-
rate—if they promised that he should not be trou-
bled by incumbered proprietors, who had nothing
but a nominal existence—(Laughter)—if they promised
to the new purchaser, who proved that he had capital
and that he could repay 4 per cent. interest for ad-
vances made for improvement, and 2 per cent. as a
sinking fund, keeping at the same time a power of
seizing the land and selling it if the money was not paid
—these three inducements—a simple title, a guarantee
against an indefinite poor rate, and a possible share in
advances for permanent improvement on the land,
would, he thought, offer inducements for the pur-
chase of land in Ireland which never existed before.—
(Hear, hear.) It appeared that many persons were
shocked by the invasion of the old property system.
' One fact was better than a thousand arguments. He
therefore asked the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man (Mr. Stuart) to accompany him in an excursion
through the Court of Chancery in Ireland. And he
weuld then ask whether, while such a state of things pre-
vailed, whatever the apparent pecuniary advantages, it
was likely that there could be any purchases effected of
Irish land. If the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
felt indisposed to follow him in this excursion, perhaps
the circumstances—the purchaser's name in the parti-
cular instance was Mr. John Stuart—(Laughter)—
might induce him to listen to the story. He would read
Members an abstract of the account he had received, but
he had the original letter with him, and should be most
willing to show it to any Hon. Gentleman who might
desire to see it. The gentleman from whom he derived
it mentioned that feeling how careful the House should
be in the reception of statements from out of doors, he
had not forwarded the like without having previously
submitted it to his solicitor, a gentleman well acquainted
with the facts, and who had entirely confirmed the accu-
racy of the statement made. The statement set forth an
account of what was called a sale under the Court of
Chancery in Ireland.
" A receiver was appointed over the estate in 1813.
The estate was sold, under a decree of the Court, in
1838. After most tedious proceedings and great costs,
it was di:covered that there was a technical defect in the
title, and the purchaser was freed from the purchase.
The estate was resold in 1843, under an amended decree.
The present purchaser (his informant) thought that,
after the previous investigation, purchasing under the
amended decree, he should be safe.—(A laugh.) He paid
his purchase money into court. In June next six years
would have elapsed since he paid the money. He was.
not in possession—(A laugh)—and would not be for two
years more.—(Renewed laughter.) It was discovered,
on examination, that the estate was less by 1,200 acres
than the quantity stated in the rental; that parts of the
property stated to be fee-simple were leasehold,
with a power of re-entry and reservation of the
royalties. That leases stated to have been made
without powers were made with full powers, and
were binding and valid. In 1848 it was discovered
that several reversionary leases, not set out in the rental,
were in existence and also valid. On these objections
the Remembrancer decided in favour of the purchaser—
that is, that the rule was invalid, and the purchaser
thought he was released—and reported to the pur-
chaser that he should be released from his purchase.
The vendors objected to the release. The Barons de-
cided in their favour, and reversed the decision of the
Remembrance". The result had been that the pur-
chaser had neither received the interest of the purchase-
money nor the rents of the estate—(Laughter)—so
far as to individual wrong." Now look at the social
evils:—" All the evicted paupers of adjoining estates had
crowded into it. In the course of the proceedings
the widow of the vendor became the inheritor of
the estate on the death of her youngest son.
She died lately of a broken heart, without the common
necessaries of life. On her death fresh proceedings
had to be taken, news bills filed, new decrees pro-
nounced, and now we have to discover her heir in Ame-
rica. That such a system must prove ruinous to all
parties, the vendors, the purchaser 3, the mortgagees
and the tenants, is evident. The capital I had intended
to expend in the improvement of the property will all
be spent in law cost, in a fruitless attempt to obtain
that which was profess' d to be sold to me. This is not
an uncommon case. Two friends of my own purchased
two estates the same dey I did, under the courts; Mr.
—, at the end of four years, was forced to take what
his counsel pronounced was not the title under which he
bought; Mr. —, at the end, I believe, of six years,
has been freed from his, after most expensive proceed-
ings, during which, I believe, the tenants have paid no
rents, and have, by their lawl: as proceedings, endan-
gered the peace of the neighbourhood."
'rids was a statement of simple facts, and he would put it
to the House whether such facts should be allowed to
continue possible—(Hear, hear)—especially when the
possibility of their recurrence could be prevented, not
only without injury either to the nominal or to the prac-
tical proprietors of hind in Ireland, hut with the utmost
benefit to all parties?—(Hear, hear.) Certain it was in
his conviction that unless some distinct remedy was ap-
plied, and that speedily, the whole of the now solvent
property of Ireland would certainly be involved in the
same catastrophe with the insolvent property.—(Hear,
hear.) He would ask any Hon. Gentleman who still
had doubts on the subject to read the conclusive evidence
given before the House of Lords by Colonel Gore, of
Mayo, and Mr. Martin, of Galway—evidence which
manifested the masterly acquaintance with the condition
of Ireland which the exact and laborious inquiries of
those gentlemen had given them.—(Hear.) For himself,
he required no further re examination of the question to
induce him to give his hearty support to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman oppoeite,whose whole conduct during
his Parmentary career, whose high principles of action,
whose well-natured and soundly tempered efforts to re-
form the laws of his country, were worthy of the great
name he bore.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT could not allow this discussion to close
without expressing his opinion on its subject. He had
never listened to the deliberations in that House upon
any question connected with Ireland, with half the de-
light which that evening's debate had given him.—
(Hoar, hear.) A more beautiful explanation of a mea-
sure than that given by the Solicitor General of this
most excellent Bill, he had never heard in that House or
elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) He could not find the slight-
est fault with the proposition, either that it went too far
or that it did not go tar enough. There were, as the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman admitted, other things to
be done; but certainly the measure here submitted to the
House was one which had begun at the right point, and
was proceeding at all events to a considerable extent in
the right direction—(Hear, hear)—aud he was satis-
fied, further, that though some Learned Gentlemen
opposite and some other persons connected with the land
in Ireland might regard it us a dangerous measure, there
was no class in Ireland whose real safety was more con-
sulted by the Bill than the class of landed proprietors.—
(Hear, hear.) For himself, he would say that, did ho
not conceive it would conduce as much to their safety,
and to the maintenance of their property, as to the
safety and maintenance of the property of any other
class, it would not have the warm support he was dis-
posed to giro it.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion
that nothing could be more fatal than an attempt to
maintain the property of any one class as against any
other class; while measures based on sound principles,
calculated to meet great emergencies, must be, as this
measure eminently was, certain to be advantagenus
to all classes in the country to which it referred.—
(Hear, hear.) He had that night fallen under the
displeasure of two Hon. Gentlemen, representatives
from Ireland ; he was not about to say that
he had nut laid himself open to some of
the observations which had been made; but Hon.
Gentlemen from Ireland would du him generally
this justice, that on all occasions since he had sit in that
House, he had almost always spoken, always voted, in
favour of those measures which had met the approbation
of the Members for Ireland, at all events sitting on that
aide of the House—(Hear, hear)—while with respect to
this especial measure, gentlemen from Ireland might
perhaps recollect that at the close of the last session of
Parliament he had made the precise proposition now
f
occsai lioo:
submitted to the House by the Solicitor-General.—
(Hear, hear.) He had stated on that re
of land in
anything else was done with thist 9
°be no appointed, to
Ireland, a special tribunal ough
this subject should be refehrreed
which the adjudication of all
Court of Chancery in Ire-
qu,eishteieo,nfsremconwnheacttehdewhiathd
beard of the condition of
Ir:iitnogf effectivesueh
tricheoueladl be
yarltioamtheent, to show
appeal unhesitiitingly te the
(.
Hear, hear.) lie would.
doneland, he
withoutwas
he had never exhibited people of
sattl!esfieedstatbhtlaist
or those who represented them in that House.—
whole of his conduct, in andouhtoostfilli;
He heartily thanked the Government for
(Hear, •
tlhrealtand
this measure, and hoped they would exhibit as much
determination in pressing it through the House, as they
had exhibitedhear wisdom in concaving it and la} ins it
hheeaarrd.)any attack made upon
befsoirre
Jl:alryliAamLesnut.—ha(dElneaort,
the Hon. Member by Irish representatives. The only
fierce attack that bad been made that evening was not
upon the Hon. Member,-but upon the Bill before the
House, and this was by the Hon. and Learned Member
for Oxford, who dui minced it has not being sufficiently
confiscatory.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that the Act relative to in-
cumbered estates which was passed last year had ren-
dered the expenses of the transfer of landed property in
Ireland much greater than they had been under the law
14 it formerly stood, At the same tipe,lt® levet upon

his satisfaction at the manner in which the present mea-
sure had been brought forward.
Mr. lIORSMAN also expressed his approbation of
the manner in which the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-
General had brought forward the present Bill, which he
greatly approved of. He must say that if there was
any fault to be discovered it was that the Bill stood iso-
lated, and was in danger of being completely marred in
consequence of the inefficiency of the other measure by
which it had been preceded.
Mr. HENLEY rose to observe that the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth had cited an instance
of a transfer of land which had been impeded by a
technical difficulty, whereas when the real facts came out
the difficulties were, first, that there was a mistake of
1,200 acres in the quantity of land; next, that the pro-
perty in7tead of being freehold was leasehold ; and
thirdly, that when the lease came to be examined it was
found to contain some very ugly covenants. And yet,
upon the strength of such a case as this, the Court of
Exchequer in Ireland was to b set aside as incompetent.
Sir R. PEEL stated that he bad not put the case in
the way the Hon. Member had imagined. What ho
said was that technical difficulties had been raised to the
making
eandtrgnsfer of the estate in 1838,
whengoodwu the
s a
originallysl sold under the authority of the
court, and that those technical difficulties were admitted
and received by the court. Whereas the diffimilties
which the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire had described
were real difficulties, from which the courts of law failed

to relieve the purchasers of the estate.
Mr. MONSELL had never heard a speech with a
greater feeling of disappointment than that of the Noble.
Lord in bringing forward his poor•law amendment. Ile
had a thousand times rather that the Irish poor- law re-
mained ai it was tha❑ that it should be thus amended.
Mr. BANKES said it was Lord Strafford who first
proposed to dispense with the law courts in Ireland, and
to appoint a court of commissioners to examine into and
adjudicate upon all matters connected with the transfer
of land in Ireland. And this was one of the acts for
which he was impeached. He (Mr. Berates) was anxious
to give every attention to any proposition of the Govern-
ment on this difficult matter; bat, when he found such
uniform supporters of a Liberal Government as the Hon.
Member for Cockermouth, and the Hon. and Learned
Member for Oxford, pointing out difficulties which oc-
curred to them in the way of its working, he might be
excused if ho doubted whether they could hope for any
beneficial result to accrue from this measure.—(Hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON inquired whether the Commis-
sioners would have the same jurisdiction where proceed-
ings had commenced in the Court of Exchequer as where
they had commenced is the Court of Chancery?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL replied that the equity
side of the Exchequer and the Court of Chancery would
be excluded in the provisions of the Bill.
Leave was then given to introduce the Bill.
LEASES (IRELAND).

The SOLICITOR•GENiRAL the]; moved for leave
to bring in a Bill to enable persons having perpetual and
limited interests in land in Ireland to make grants in
fee or demises for long terms of years. The object of
this Bill was clerly explained is its title. lie proposed
to give power to persons having perpetual and limited
interests in land to make leases of a portion of their
property for terms of 99 years, for building or improve-
able purposes. As it was desirable that these leases
should be all made in a certain form, it would be ne-
cessary in a few days to introduce another Bill upon the
subject.

Mr. J. STUART said it was not his intention to op-
pose the Bill ; but he could see no reason why one prin-
ciple should be applied to England and Scotland, and
another to Ireland.
Mr. SADLEIR trusted that the measure which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was about to introduce
would be calculated to improve the system of tenant
tenure; for nothing would so much add to improved
agriculture in Ireland as such a measure.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
LEAVE OF ABSENCE.

On the motion of Sir J. HAMILTON, leave of absence
was given to Mr. French for a fortnight, in consequence
of the illness of a member of his family.
POOR.LAW (IRELAND).—RATE IN AID.
Sir W. BARRON hoped this Bill would not be pro-
ceeded with at that hoar of the night (ten minutes past
twelve).
Sir G. GREY said that, in compliance with the
wishes of several Hon. Members, he consented to post-
pone the Bill until to-morrow (this day), when it would
stand as the first order of the day.
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (METROPO-
LITAN DISTRICTS) BILL.
On the motion of the AT FORNEY-GENERAL, this
Bill was read a second time. To be committed on Friday
week.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve
o'clock.

THE ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH

COMPANY.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE TIMES.
Sir,—ln your paper of the 14th inst. I find an extract
7rom the Builder, in which an accusation is made against

.his company calculated to do very great injury to tho

. .
undertaking.
The Elec'ric Telegraph Company have established a
system of no ordinary complication and extent. Their
wires stratch from Glasgow on the north to Dorchester

on the south, from the cart coast at Yarmouth to the

wept at Liverpool. They have brought upwards of 150
towns into instant communication with each other.

They have a central office in Lothbury, London, and
five branch receiving-houses in various parts of the
metropolis ; and from the main station at Intlibury
their wires (carried at a gn at cost in iron p.pes under
the stre. ts) diverge to every town of importance in tho
country.
In the metropolis alone they have upwards of sixty
persons in their employment, and at each of their country
stations they have, independently of messengers, not less
than two, and in many cases as many as ten signal clerks,
all of them skilled in manipulating and interpreting the
telegraph.
The wires which they have set up for the use of the
public alone are upwards of 9,800 miles in length, and
extend over a distance of 2,060 miles, and, exclusive of

those running tinder ground and through tunnels or
rivers, are stretched on tyl less than 61,800 poste, vary..

ing from 16 feet to 30 feet in height, and of an average
square of eight inches, with an expensive apparatus of
insulators and winders attached to each.
As the most trifling derangement of the wires or ap-
paratus will stop the communic.ition, it is obvious that
the utmost care and watchfulness is requisite to prevent
and detect accidents, and when is derangement does oc-
cur it requires the nicest combination to ascertain the
exact point of the mischance, and great ingenuity and
outlay to repair it without delay, and in such wise as to
maintain tho free passage of the electric current during
the operation.
Accordingly tho whole distance is divided into dis-
tricts, each district having a superintendent, and under
him several inspectors, and a staff of workmen, battery-
men, and mechanics, more or less numerous, according
to the extent over which he presides.
If these things be considered in conjunction with the
central staff of engineers and secretaries in London, the
continual replacement and renewal of instruments conse-
quent upon improvements in their mechanism, or their
deterioration from wear and tear, accidi•nt or neglect ;
the immense quantity of stores always on hand to meet
contingencies, the great consumption of stationery, fuel,
lights, &c., the rents, taxes, and other details, too nu•
merous to mention here—l submit that a maximum
charge for a message amounting to Id. per mile cannot
fairly be considered as an exorbitant demand for the
accommodation afforded to the public is ket ping open so
teeny receiving stations, end the maintenance of the ex-
pensive establishment to which I have adverted.
The telegraphic system is designed fur important and
urgent messages, and could I violate the secrecy which I
feel bound strictly to observe, I could show that not one
dispatch in a hundred has been forwarded which has not
been worth many times the amount paid for it by the
sender.

A commercial house at Liverpool will scarcely grudge
Ss. 6d. for a communication by which a necessary pay-
ment may be made, an important order given, or a pro-
fitable operation facilitated in London; and the message
from Glasgow, which traverses a distance of 520 miles
in an instant, to summon a son from the metropolis to
the bedside of a dying parent is scarcely to be judged
overpaid at a charge of 14s.—considerably less than id.
per mile.
A long and expensive journey is prevented, or a neces-
sary one hastened—a bill accepted or protested—a re-
mittance made—a purchase Effected or countermanded—
an important witness is summoned—the arrival or the
loss of a ship is announced— an insurance is effected—
advi ,e is asked, or orders given—in fact, an endless
variety of important announcements, questions, and re-
plies pass daily through our numerous receiving-houses,
and, I can honestly aver, have for the most part effected,
and have Is .en acknowledged to have effected, an eco-
nomy and convenience tar beyond the Id. per mils of
our tariff.
An express message sent by porters or by a cab from
the City to the west end of the town----say fresh
four
office to the House of Commons, a distance of our
miles, will cost 2s. 6d., and if the same message can be
sent from Manchester to Liverpool, a distance of 30
miles, for the same sum, and in it shorter time, it cannot
surely be deemed an ex Agin
tray t demand.
This letter has gone to so great a length that .I will
not further trespass on your space in corroboration of
my statement, and I have only, in conclusion, to explain
to you that for a long time the receipts of the commercial
telegraph were not equal to the current expenditure, and
that though the undertaking is now remuneratwe,_ yet
many of our wires are in far from complete and contin-
uous employment, and to point out to you that -We
ments which may have the effect of preventing 'tis
public from making the full use of the telegraphic iless
commodation provided for them calculated not only
to impede an extension of that areaccommodation, butto
preclude the co .
company from diminishing the cost at
which it is provided.
1 am, Sir, your obedient servant,
J. LEWIS lirceeeso,
Chairman of the Electric Telegraph Company.
Lnthbury, Aptil 23.

DEATH OF CAPTAIN SIR THOMAS Bonacnrus,
K.C.B.—We regret to state that Captain Sir Thomas
Bourchier, K.C.B. Superintendent of Chatham Dock-
yard, died at his official' residence, yesterday morning,
at three o'clock. lie was a gallant and highly distin-
guished officer, and had seen a great deal of service. His
health and constitution were broken at;China during the
war, in which be commanded the Blonde frigate. He
married a daughter of Admiral Sir E. Codrington, and
was 58 years of age.
CHESTER AND HOLYHEAD RAlLWAY.—Traffic for
the wet k ended April 21, 1849:—Coaching traffic, 8961.
163. itd.; parcels, :35/. 7s. 2d.; goods and cattle, 2781.
93. 3d.; steam-boats, 150/. 0;. 6d. Total, 1,360!. 13s. 3d.,
exclusive of toll from Shrewsbury and Cheater ConTany
, end payment for conveyanoe of mils