The Sun.
London, England, 1807-07-25 00:00:00

IRISH INSVRRECTION

Upon the. Motlon of Sir Atmtun Witm.usr.f:y;
the House v.icot. again into a (juintnittee open the.
Irish Insurrection Bill.
Upon the Clause, empowering the Assistant Bar
riger to preside as Chief Judge at the Sessions, and
in case of a difference of opinion between him and
the' majority of the lilagisnates, authorising him to
report the case, with the evidencer tkc. to the Lord
Lutenant ; • •
Sir Jour; NTELDPORT, by way of limiting the power
of the Assistant Barrister, proposed as au Amend.
rnent to this Clause, that the report of such Alsist-:
ant Barrister should not be final and conclusive.

A- division immediately took place upun this
Amendment,when there appeared—For the Amend-
ment 29—Against it 637—Majority for the original
Clause 24.

On our re-admission to.the • Gallery, we found
tho'Committee tiiicussing the Clause wherein it is
prob:ided that Magistrates may have the power to
enter houses',.Or authorise any person by warrant to
do so, at any time from' after sun-
set to sun-rise, from which they shall suspect the
inhabitantc'or any of them, to be then absent, and
cause absent persons to be apprehended, and deem-
ed idle and diSorderly„ unless, they can prove that,
they were absent upon their lavilul occasions.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT exPresSed his anxious
wish to guard this Clause from the consequences of
VI abuse of such extensive and important powers .8$
were thereby to be committed' to the Magistrates.
In order to prevent the appointment of rash and
unadvised men to execute this duty, he should re-
commend that the Magistrates. should be required
to give iu to the Quarter Sessions, lists of such .per,
sons as they, may think fitted for the purpose :of
searching houses, and demanding admission, and
that such lists should be delivered in within 'the
period of 48 hours after the county is, proclaimed,
under a. penalty of tool. Without such' a 'sae-
guard, he certainly should divide the Cenunittee
upon thittpart of this Clause:
' • Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY and the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER thought it would be: income-
, nient taking the sense of the Committee upon this
pointi previous to settling theterms.of the Clause in
other particulars. Stich a provision would at all
events lead to ,an unnecessary and premature pub-
lication of the _names of persons who were to be
so employed by the. Magistrates.

Mr. CROKER proposed, as a preliminary point
to be settled, viz. that after demanding admission,
the officer employed should, i‘ after a reasonable
time," such as the space of 'ten minutes, being al-
lowed, if refused, proceed to enter a dwelling-house
by force, as the objp6t of the search was to bud who
wcs absent, and not •WhOWAS in the'bouse.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT stated, that ,as this was a,
search to be made in the dead hour of 'night, when
all persons were supposed, to be asleep, the demand,
ing admission from persons in such 'a situation, was,
in his opinion, preposterous, as they could not hear
those who called, and 'theretbre the 'tern) "
sonable time" +Ali, very.—indefinite.' In his OPillion,
it would' certainly be bet.er to specify a .particular
length of time, which n3ight be deemed te33o't,'.olo;
to await admission, atter some person within ttm
house had answered the demand of adtbission
the officers.

PEREk ER thought this was frittetin
away the power of the •Magistrate, by throWittg
.penalties in the way, and. leading •to
,What was wanted by his side of the House !Nit; tr,),
make the Bill effectual ; and therefore; the pgrpose
of the Bill, upon which the Committee seemed tea
be agreed, ought not to be Iriltered away, merely
to indulges the disposition alone side of the' Ming,
opposing the other. He thought, the insertion
of the words, " reasonable, 'time," would be suf-
ficient. •

Sir SiIMUEL ROMILLY said, that when the
House considered that this demand of admittance
was to be made in the dead of night, a sufficient
lime was certainli'necessary, in order• to allow fe-
males to rise out of bed; 'and put themselves in a
proper situation, before men forced thernielves into
a house. Without that, the greatest violation of
decency Haight be the consequence of breaking in
'abruptly, when persons are asleep. Be., then _fore,
thought it,would be preposterous to „say, that the
space of ten minutes, at least, ought not to be al:-
lowed. . .

Mr. LAING considered that this was a case of
.as serious a nature as that of a Magistrate: ordering
the military to fire upon a mob. The law had prO-
vided that in this latter case, the Magistrate must
waif half an hour precisely, befOre he.could• assume
that power, while in this ease a doMiciliary visit was
to be made in the night time, by persons authorised
by a Magistrate, and the house was to be broken
into without any space, of time, or upon such
warning as they Might t►tink proper; This was
certainly a most unlimited :power, and liable
to great abuses, he highly Approved of a specific
time being inserted in the AO. He should suggest
the space of a quarter of an hour being allowed tor
the warning,.atter the people within doors had been'
awoke,,

Mr. .CROKEIt observed, that' a subsequent
clause In the Bill, relative to the intliating a penal.
ties, might., obviate some of the objeatiohs. which.
might be stated Viiinit what he had prvpo,ed,
the injUry fo7'. which an a6lion was sbrought by a
Plaintiff was certified to
.have been wilfully 'and ma-
liciously. committed, such plaintiff might be entitled,
t 6 • double coSts, by way at punishing the Magi.
.strate. Nay, they might even trebled, or
.fur.,
therincreased in proportion to the Olfence rominit«
ted,' so that the hardship likely to arise,
.might be
thereby obviated.
Mr. GRAMIN said, that this was a-power of a
most.dangerous and al fining nature ; and although
be might allow it to be ,necessary, yet ht. wished
this Committee to" idea to what sort of .people
it wai likely to be given, It was to any perioh
Magistrate might please to appoint Whom
he appoint ? He
.would appoint the tnost.despeotte

fellow in his neighbourhood; he nit& apptAnt an
hostler, a loitilicth, or a cow boy. To• these, and
such people, he was 'to givera power' to break; into
any house in his distria. They were to be allowed
even tribreak into lathe's' bed-chambers; for-it was
not necessary, by the mode in which this'Bill was
proposed obe waded, to wait for a refusal. Such
would be the consequence of insu'l'ting the u ords
reaionahle-tiMe." specific.
He MOinit to V1)1.2 against this clause, as it would
bring such. an ettiktrn- upon the Legislature of the
country. :To tallt'of daMages, 6y subjecting the
.111agistrates to the payment- of costs, was, in either
'Case, an insult to, the injured feelings of a wo-
•man, even of the lowest.' family, who might
,chance to he intruded upon. For these masons he
approved of inserting a reasonable time., .
Mr. J. C. pREItESPORD. said, he was far from
agreein,r with the Bon. Gentleman whU spoke last,
,as he trtought it very unlikely that the Magistrates of
Ireland would depute either postilions, cow-hays, or
any desperate fellow to • perform such an ottice.--:-
l'hey would.be men resident in the place, and not
desperadoes that would be.. employed. He approved
of inserting the words,• (c reasonable time,"
,sOlely,
without specifying any particular period, because it
was not likely that cow-boys, postilions, or any
others', commissioned upon such busineis, would
have a watch in his 'pocket to ascertain the time.---;
Besides, iti would only prove an inducement to per-
sons in the inside of the house to dispute the time,
and give rise to prosesecuttons against the Magi-
, itrates or their Deputies, in the execution of their
duty. . .

Mr. GRATTAN added, that he knew of ih-
stance,s, where Magistrates had adually abused ,their
power, and' therefbre be thought that such power
as this ought to be conferred upon -them with the
greatest caution. He was on this eccount the more
convinced that it was necessary to quality the Bill,
in order not to discredit it, nor to violaie, domestic
quiet. , •
Mr. ABERCROMBIE observed; that he' knew
of instances somewhat .siniilar to this, where .suCh
ueliMited powers gave rise to the greatest -com-
plaints. In searching for -arms, great inconvenience
was experienced. by a)lowieg soldiers, to have' such
poWer. It had been found necessary. never to allow
it to be done, even by serjeants, without the pre-
senceof officers; and he had known instances where
ttci thanks of the people, whose- houses had been
searched, were presented ,to Withers, for the incon-
veniencies they 'had thereby escaped.
• The SOLICITOR-GEAERAL said, that this
was a novel and, severe measure, upon that they
seemed all agreed; and they also seemed to acknow-i
ledge.,the necessity of the MagistrateS having' ad-.
mission by night, either by voluntary or compulsory
Meahs; the singte question,*therefore, was, what
length 'of time should be allowed to elapse be-
fore compulsory admission 'shoeld be attempted.—
Ile thought the words. (e reatopable time," were
Infinitely best. There would thereby be less pros-
peel of litigation, than if the time was confined to a
certain number of minutes. In either case, 'should
it appear that the Magistrate had, by his deputies,
broken in before 'a reasonable time,' he • would be
equally Stibjed to &images. There, might LAi. cases
where even the space of ten mintites_wanld
long enough to wait, and others where it 'might be
too long. This was a proper
,subjea .fr,r the deci-
sion of a jury, as it must vecessarily 4pend upon cir-
cumstances.'
. Dr. LAiPRENCE disapproved of the whole
clause ; anti although he should endeavour, to amend
it, he was not pledging himself not to obje& to it
afterwards, in oh), in a 'future, stage. This was
g;ving*.a new and unexampled power, never before
tolerated iu any country, under any circumstances.
He thought., a specific time preferable to an'indeti-
.nite one., • , •

Sir St 1 MUEL liOMILLY added, that he could
not see bow The, difficulty of litigation was to be
got rid at; as had been. suggested by the ltight
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor Cie-
Imp!) by the mode supported by the other side on
the contrary, he thought it would be greatly in 7
i , A
creined, and the NlagniLrines.,placeu.Ontit, Cr very great
di then hies.. . . •
The ATTORNEY-dE.IIAL supported the propd-
-01,0 —inserting " reasonable time," for, in either
case, he: thought it would be best to leave it. to the
judgment of alury. ' -
The question being. loudly called for, strangers
were ordered to withdraw ; and,,at the same time,
Mr' Wilberforce wag rising to deliver his sentiments.
The. House then di% ided2For an indefinite time 74.
a specific time :r3.—Majority 41.
Many other clauses. were gone through, and after
seach.ondergoing a pretty, lung discussion, several
Amendments Were made.

on the folloWingclause, "'Provided alwari, and
be it turther eitaaed, That when a verdict shall be
given tin the Plaintiff in any action to be brought
against any Jubaice of the Peace, Peace Qffleer, or
Whet' person, tbr taking or imprisoning, or detaining
any person, or for seizing arms, or entering houses
under colour of any authority given by this AA, and
it shall appear to thd Judge or Judges before whom,
Ad same, shall be tried, that there was a probable
Cause tor doittOhe Aa complained of in,
and the Judge or Court shall certify the same on
Record, then and in that case the Plaintiff shall not
be entitled to more than
.6d. Daniages,• nog' to.any
costs of suit."

Mr: BRAND moved that the whole Clause he omit-
ted, its grOssly unjust and unconstitutional.
Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted
'that the Clause was not one which he could have
wished to see introduced, but when the necessity
of the case was considered.. When it was recol-,
Jeciect that•the'state of Ireland required titat very
irksome and disagreeable, duties should be im-
posed on the Magistrates; which theywould be un-
willing to perform, and-which, in fact, it would be
'dangerous for: them to pertbrm with the zeitaini
fidelity required, unless they wore proteaed froin
the areas- of unintentional- errors into which, from
appear;:tuces, they might be:led—when, in short it
.wa*.considered that the very Jurors in such actions
of dainages' might be persons against whom it had
been necessary forthem,to exerciie•tlie.F,na&nietttgof
tliis Att,.and whose mitt& might, on that account,
he inflamed against themi`'Wnen.:all these things
'were r'4aisidered, it,AffaS the tigkon of those beat ad-
Tian; ted with the-state of Lreland, that the Aet must
U 4) imperfealy executed, - Unless the Magistrates
,',,C,Cored by a clatise like the present,

! Sir A. PIGOTT was decidedly of opinion that tie- •
provision no* objeeted to, would be a disgrace to
i the Statute.'look. Were they by this most -extra-.
ordinary Bill, to give extraordinary powers to Magi-
strates, 'apd then, after they had- exceeded even the
powers given them, to prate& them from the ver-
dict of a Jury? If the Right Ellan. Gentleman was
afraid that the persons aggieved might .obtain a ver •
di& while • the-Country was in 'a
-state of irritation„:
why limit the (tree for seeking redress to six months!
If again he was afraid of the inflammable state of thti
Jurors' minds, ,and that might even have been
parties in thc supposed transgression, the remedy
was plain -and easy7-to change the venue to a more
distant county, Where po dissatisfaCtion or irritation.
.of feelings had prevailed. It had been said, that a
similar Act had been intended to be proposed by the
late Minfstry. He would only say for one, that he
liad never.beeu consulted on, nor heard of such-an • .
:intention, nor had he ever,seen• the present Bill till •
yesterday. :If the state of Ireland was such a the
„Right. Hon. Gentleman represented, and that a Jury
could not be had there whose mind was -not in an
inflammatory state, why not take away the Trial by
Jury entirely, at-least suspend it, till the 'feelins of
the people were restored to a greater degree of calm-
ness and composure ? ,It was a,.MKkely to continue
the trial by'Jury, and yet to deprive an. injured per-
son of the eta eet of- a verdi& after it had been given
in his tavoer.. It was said,that the Judges Of Ire-
land were fair, impartial, and upright. ..He should
be sorry to doubt it.. .kle believed-- that' they, it'
common With jUdges of this part of the Kingdaini
with whom he was, more intimately acquainted,-. •
possessed every honourable tied iiprielit feeling and"
quality. But this was powertnht to be:,entrnited
to any Man. It was such. a.power as the law had ,
refused to atilt' Judge, or any set'ofJu4ges whateiter,
The 4711'0.8..V.E.YGENBlirt'L contended, that
the eiraament now objected to was not so novel as
the. Hotidurable and Learned' Baronet had suppoSed.
He confessed that Plaintilis in the situation alluded
to were. to be deprived of .the benefit of the coin?,
men Law ;• but. Was not this already. the case in 'all .
revenue questions ? Where an Officer of the'Reee,..
line was sued, nothing but the dry damage sustained'
by the injured party was awarded *against him; ,
Where' it. was a question of intention in reveoue
cases, and no intention ceuldbe alte*n, the Plainug
could not. recover ;', and: it. had been detertnitiadi.jas-.:
the case of &won and Johnston, that the q.lestlini
Of "probable cause" was a question kr the Judge.
-There the Defendant would haVe acquittal,- and
of course his costs from- the. Plaintiff; here the Plain-
tiff to have a nominal verdict, even although-the
Judge Was of opinion that the probable cause was
,wWiotuhl.ttilleia,!?eetfoenpdearnfto.rmThildi
dtuhteiespr'evsielinuth si‘;altaegiostt.rlatt•o4l-1,
land, were of a most invidious nature, and he thought
that this was, not too great an 'indemnity to allow
them in the dkcharge of such duties.
111r.BOYLE(SOlicitor-General for Scotland) Con?
tended that the Hon. and Learned Baronet (Sir
Pigott) had gone too -far in treating the proposed '
Resolution as so great a novelty, and as so grievous
.aninfringement of the Law and Constitution of this .
Country. If the Hon. and-Learned Bart. had con-
Belted the Statnte Book, he would have found
'similar Resolutions as t'o Ireland had hnen
peatedly betbre this time) nay, that at this moment,
such formed a part of the Law of the Land... If the
-Hon.. and Learned Bart. had found the enactment•
in queition so very obnoxions, why did, he not come
forward In liis`.otlicial situation, when lie was At-
torney-General, and move that it be expunged from •
the Statute Book. He hid no doubt that the Hon.,
and Learned... Person, when, in office, agreed with hie
friends in the Ministry in thinking the Clause in dis-'
.pute essential to the well-being of Irland. He (Mr.,,
• Boyle) recolleeleti• .being ip' the /louse .0Q the
everting when the present Bill was •introduced4-and
he retneMbered perfeetlY well that Gentle Men
every side agreed in the necessity of the Measure,
except one Hon. Gentleman, whom he now saw in
his place (Mr. Sheridan), who declared, he had no
doubt maiv.couscientionsly, hicreselption to OPP°55'
Bill. Itr ' every stage.
Mr. - AP declared, , that he had not
'heard a legal or constitutional sentiment uttered oft ,
the signet, except what had fallen from his` Hon;
Friend behind flint (Sir-A. Pigott), He had indeed
heard something like an attempeata -legal defence of
the measure, - by showing that such prglices alstt,
. prevaili4 in revenue questions. But would that '
.der the power more agreed to Law or. to the Consti-'
union ? Was it not known and aCknowledged, that
our Revenue Laws were infradions of uur COll&tittl+
, (=al liberties, and Were only tolerated as atl4 of
necessity, which, indeed, was the only atternprat
vindication of the present 'measure? Thenecegitt-
pf the Revenue Laws we must all be aware of, :ate.!
great revenue could nut otherwise be eXpeeted to pc I
levied, bet of the necessity of the present provisio-
- he was by no means convinced: An,
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Boyle) had; hoWever, (rata
the Provision as part 'of the existing Law of this
-.Country, and had aSked, why, if se• obnoxious 16
his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir- A; Pigott) ho
had not moved.to have it expunged from the Sta-
.lute'Book.? A PrOVision to the same effea' he (Mt
Whitbread) admitted, did make part of a Statute of
'the Parliament of Ireland; which would expire an .
the ist of August. It would have been too nitleh''.
however, he suspeete.d, for his Learned- Friend ra
have come forward. here, and moved to have th .it
enaCtinept. expunged. At all events, an. enactment
-of the Irish Parliament could not aet its a preeedevt-
for that, House, or' afford any such argument ;far- :
v'now adOpting k, as if they had been re-enatting4i '
.former .Legislative measure of_ their own. Tileit'
might be a general conviction of thearecessity of ug
present Act, and yet the clogging it with one clOr •
similar to that now objected to, .might render it, sa
unpalatable that many Getitlemen;
,Who,
,like 111111"
•self, were not otherwise unfriendly to the measere,
might rather wish to see Ireland take its chance than
thus relinquish one of the dearest and most valuable
rights. It was hardly possible, but that in the es&
cution of such tie Ate as the present, innocent per'
sons should stiffer wrong. Their Country, however,
,
would still be naturally near to them, and they Wou,it
cheer thenlselvea' with' the hope that they had
renicdy lett—f-that they. had still -a Jury-to prote_Au:
them and. to- redress the wrongs they bad sustainc!
If the clause now-objected to, howeer, : .u, p.0517t
they, could have no ,stich consolation, "ggs. - -
appeal to a Jury—a-Jury might give %bent red. OnS
j but they might then find the Judge uereese, A