The Sun.
London, England, 1825-06-23 00:00:00

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made strict inquiries concerning the facts and the parties con-' (louse the great decrease of 'hipping in this .country, and its
cerned. increase in other countries, from which the Right Hon. Gen-
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to ask the Right Hon. Secretary demon near him had lately removed the operation of our old
for Foreign Affairs, if he had received any advices of the arrest navigation laws. Front papers which were printed and betbre
of General Devereux by the Austrian Government, within their the House, it appeared that the increase of foreign shipping en-
dominions, through which he was travelling with an American gaged in the Baltic trade with us, since the removal of those
passport ? restraints which formerly existed upon it, was no less than
Mr. CANNING said, that he had received private informs- 150,000 tons ; and the.decreese of British shipping trading to
Lion of the arrest under the circumstances described by the the ports of those vessels was 20,000 tons.—(Hear !)—The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. • whole foreign commerce that was carried on by this country,
Mr. BROUGHAM- said, that in the course of the last two and which formerly, during the prevalence of our old naviga-
Sessions, he had, on .re variety of occasions, been prevented don law, was confined almost exclusively to British bottoms,
from making allusions to the conduct of the Austrian, pro was now transacted, the • major part of it at least, in fo-
sian, and Spanish Governments,, from the conviction ,
which he reign vessel's—Meer Ile-The proportion between the two
hail, that he was very likely by so doing to bring down new descriptions of shipping might be very shortly stated thus :
severities on many unfortunate persons who had fallen within The foreign trade of Great Britain employed, of British
their power. shipping 060,000 tons ; of foreign ditto, 680,000.—(Hear,
MrOBERNAL wished to know if any speedy distribution of hear!)—He did, therefore, earnesly exhort the [louse to
Deccan prize-money was likely to be made ? consider well the inevitable consequences to which the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the measures lately pursued by his Majesty's Ministers must
Commissioners had nearly accomplished the task of making out tend. Twelve years ago only, what would have been thought
the list of distributions. He could name no time for them. of a statement that such was the condition of our trade ? How
-Mr. BERNA L said, that unless something were done in the would gentlemen have been alarmed if it had been stated that
mean time, he would early next Session move the House upon our foreign commerce was carried on by vessels of other nations
the subject. than our own ?—(Hear !)—lt was true that our coasting trade
Mr. H USKISSON postponed the third reading of the ships' was very flourishing, and, including that of Ireland, employed
registry bill till to-morrow, for the purpose of bringing up and a tonnage of near 1,000,000 tons. The trade with the United
adding a clause to empower the Government to grant leave for States, however, like our foreign commerse, exhibited die same
ships in urgent want of repairs to seek them in foreign ports alarming appearances ; for it employed British shipping to the
whenever inconvenience was- likely to arise on account of coin- amount of 42,000 tons only; but shipping a the United States
binations of workmen.—(Hear, hear!) 'to the amount of 126,000 tons It was possible that he telt
Mr. BARING complained of the practice of tacking impor- somewhat too warmly en this subject ; but he must call such a
tant clauses to hills upon • the third reading, which were fre- condition of things most alarming. Let it be remembered that
quently of more consequence than the whole bill, though sud- America possessed about an equal share with ourselves of the
denly thrust in without a chance of discussion. Not that the trade with the Continent ; and that in the meanwhile a very
Right Hon. Gentleman had done so in this case, because he had large coasting trade was being carried on in her own vessels
given notice of the nature of the clause, and prepared the House- upon her own coasts. The natural tendency of that trade to in-
for discussion. But it was only the other night theaa clause crease presented to his mind the prospect of additional changes
imposing the expellee of a church establishment upon the West to our own trade hereafter. If the Right lion. Gent. who had
India Islands, many-of which were little able to bear it, was so warmly advocated the fatal alterations in oar commercial po-
carried in this sudden and irregular manner. Hey which he (Mr. it.) was now deprecating, had ever wished
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated the to devisea project the most hostile to the future welfare of our
circumstances under which that douse had been introduced. It trade, he could not have hit upon one more entirely calculated
was, in fact, at the.suggestion of the Hon. 'Member for Aber- to effect such a purpose than that which he had been pursuing.
deep, who ought tobe responsible, and not-the Government. He (Mr. Robertson) had been forcibly impressed with the
truth the other night, on hearing the speech made by the Right
LORD CHARLES -SOMERSET. Hon. Gent. in relation to the Customs' Bounties Bill. For
311% BROUGHAM postponed his -motion ,for takin into what appeared front that speech ? Wiry, that we imported from
consideration the petition of Bishop Burnett agidnst then over-
thwßaltic, -flax, hemp, and timber ; and the two first we ern-
nor of the Cape of Good Hope until the beginning of the next rwered our manufacturers to convert into canvass and cordage.
session. Upon consideration,' he found it would be very unjust Ve allowed them a bounty on the exportation of that cordage
to open charges which, from the probable duration of this sea- and canvass to foreign ports, where they would be used for the
!don, could not be answered. - rigging and equipment of foreign ships. But upon the same ma-
Mr. CANNING said that he had not been present on pre, nufactures, if employed for the use of our own shipping, we
renting the petition ; hut he had made inquiries since. He actually levied a certain duty.—( II ear!)--Thesame inconsistency
found that the circumstances had been referred to the commis- was observable in respect of the timber trade. The Government
sioners of inquiry sent out to the Cape of Good Hope. Leave had imposed a heavy duty upon the importation of the timber
of absence had also been forwarded to Lord C. Somerset. that of which our ships were built; while in our own ports, to
he might, if he so thought fit, return to meet the charges made foreign vessels built with timber that had paid no such duties,
against him, which were so various and frequent as to call •for they gave equal advantages and an equal footing with our own
inquiry. But whether his Lordship came home or not, the thereby putting. British vessels in a worse situation than the
Commissioners would prosecute their inquiry at the Cape ; and others. lie would ask whether there was any moral possibility
until some return were made from them, he himself could not of our being able to compete with them under these circum-
form an opinion upon the case. Certain it was that the office stances ? The fatal effects of tire new order of things which had
had no sufficient means of information to warrant the House to been introduced might not, perhaps, be much felt for some
undertake the investigation at present. Neither would it be pears to come ; but supposing this increase in foreign shipping
consistent with fairness and justice, since the Government had and decrease in our own sheuld continue, and the trade of the
sent out a leave of absence, to proceed until it were seen whe- United States, with France for example, go on enlarging itself,
:ther or not Lord Charles Somerset would choose to avail him- what
was to become of us in the event of a war? Our great.
self or rot. In any case, whether he quitted his government net's depended on the greatness of our navy ; and in the de-
to meet the charge here, or whether he might feel that he had coy of its strength was involVed the failure of our own.—'
sufficient means to refute the charges without coming home, the (Hear, hear l) In the same evening,
the right Honourable
labours ofthe Commissioners would proceed withoutintermission. Gentleman had-said on a former evening, that if our seamen
Mr. BROUGHAM said that Lord C. Somerset was se- chose to enter into such combinations as some of them had
riously charged by the petition. Inquiry there must be. But engaged in recently, we must employ foreigners; and that if
certainly it would he worse than useless, it would he-pernicious the stiipwxights persevered in similar connexions, it would be
and unjust, to agitate this subject now, when there was no necessary for our merchants to take up foreign shipping.
chance for his Lordship to be heard in his justification—cape- From propositions like these, fraught with so much mischief
cially as an order had gone out for his return, and he might he and danger; he _ earnestly entreated the House to withhold
here at the next meeting of Parliament; at which time, too, its sanction in any case. Ile did not now so much address
Government might have important communications from the himself to those who were members of the hoard of Trade,
Commissioners. as to the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who had supported
. i
• Mr. CANNING begged the Hon. and Learned Gentleman them up to this time, n the new measures which they had, in
not to mistake him. No orders had gone out for Lord C. So- his opinion so unfortynately introduced. As an opportunity
merset's return, hut only leave of absence, of which his Lord.• would soon occur, in another stage of the Customs' Consolida-
ship might avail himself or not. • But whether or not, until it don Bill (as we understood), of delivering his sentiments on
were known what his Lordship would do, the House ought to these matters mote at large, he would not press any further ob-
refrain from the investigation. nervation on the llouse at present ; hut would sit' down, se-
Mr. BROUGHAM assented to the proposition oldie Right riously requesting every Hon. Gentleman to reflect on the pre-
Hon. Gentleman, with this condition—that after ample time sent actual state of our naval resources.—([sear!)
should have been given to Lord C. Somerset to make up his The Biil was then read a third time and passed.
mind and to come home, he (Mr. Brougham) was not to be PARTNO:HSH IP SOCIETIES (SCOTLAND.)
prevented from bringing on the subject on account of his The LORD ADVOCATE moved the third reading of the.
Lordship's absence..—("Hear !" from the Ministerial Bench.) Partnership Societies (Scotland) Bill.
Mr. W. HOTtTON rose to answer a question formerly put Mr. J. P. GRANT, alluding to the very thin state of the
House, wished the third reading to be postponed.
by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen respecting the notorious The LORD ADVOCATE was very sorry to press the men.
Oliver. Ile found that Oliver was now an escaped felon from sure, but he was obliged to go down -to Scotland on the mot-
New South Wales; that he had made his way to the Cape of row.—(A laugh.)
Good Hope, and was not a little active in the affairs which had Mr..l. P. GRANT proposed, then, that the third reading
latterly troubled that settlement. ' should stand for to-morrow.—(A laugh.)
.: Lord EDWARD ' SON/ ERSET seized the first opportunity .11r. liIiSiiISSON thought the Bill had better be now pro-
which presented itself of assuring the House, that his noble ceeded with. It involved a great question of public interest and
relative was most anxious that Isis whole conduct, and the melt- commercial law in Scotland.
sures of his government, should be submitted to the investiga- 111 r. J. P. GRANT agreed that it did so : but the bill bad
tion of Parliament. The Right lion. Secretary for Foreign been brougi-t in, as be should contend, without any thing like
Affairs had said that there were commissioners sent out to in- due consideration : its preamble recited that to he true, which,
quire. Undoubtedly it would be the first object of his Noble in fact, was manifestly false; and declared that to be law which
Relative to give the utmost facilities to the views of the Com- the decision of-die House of Lords in a recent case had de-
missioners. The sooner the investigation commenced, the• el:wed not to be law.—(flear ! i—Without meaning to employ
sooner would his Noble Relative be relieved from the abuse unnecessarily strong language, he would venture to say that if
end the attacks which were poured fourth upon him. The this 14i11 should pass, it would hold up this House to absolute
-libels which were uttered both here and at the Cape were nu-
merous and atrocious ; some of them were so inconsistent with ridicule. Now the bill set forth, that by the law of Scotland,
partnerships or commercial associations of individuals might
themselves that they destroyed their own credibility. He im-
plored the House to suspend their judgment—Wear, hear !) sue and be sued in respect of debts, bonds, &c. ; but when he
last addressed the House, he had showed that so far tram this
until the Report of the Commissioners had arrived. If his being the case, decisions of the Courts of Session in Scotland
Noble Relative thought that his justification should need it, he had repeatedly held that such partnerships could neither sue
would, without hesitation avail himself of the leave of absence, nor be sired.—(Hear!)—lndeed, the following part of the pre-
• and return home.—(Cheers.) amble stated " that doubts had arisen," &c. and the ground
Mr. BROUGHAM, to quiet the feelings of the Noble Lord of those doubts was described to be that tine House of Lords
who had-just spoken, declared that he had never read a line of would not entertain any question on appeal in cases wherin the
the libels except so much as was contained in the petition ; and parties had sued in the names of the partnership.
except that petition and a case in which he was engaged before , The LORD ADVOCATE begged the lion. Gentleman
the Privy Council, he had never heard of any charge being would understand that he was called to Scotland by public
made against Lord C. Somerset. duty, not by private convenience. He must contend that by
The East India Judges' Bill and the Writs of Error Bill the well-known law of Scotland, as it had existed for upwards
were read a third time and passed. of 100 years, partnerships might sue and be stied ; and by an
--The report of the Newspapers Bill was brought-up and read. Act of the Scottish Parliament in (Oita, that was expressly
. Mr. HUME entreated the Chancellor of the Exchequer to stated anti provided. Authority, too, was given by the same
listen to his proposal for reducing the duties on Newspapers, law to record bills of exchange, in further extension of the
which he might do without injury to the revenue. The doing principle thet partnerships might sue and be sued. The re-
away the restriction as to the size of the paper was good, so was cords of Parliament would shnw innumerable instances of ap-
the reduction of the stamp on supplements to two-pence, pro- peals carried on in the names of such joint partnerships.. He
vided that they contained nothing but advertisements. What would further observe to his llonouruble Friend, that this was
he proposed was, to reduce the stamp to two-pence on all not a declaratory but a prospective Bill. As to the case before
Newspapers. The reduction as it stood would do no good to tine House of Lords which had been alluded to, no decision
those establishments which most needed it. The ditty was in- had yet been conic to in respect of it, and therefore it could
crewed Id. in 1814, but the increase in the revenue did not prove nothing for his Learned Friend's argument. The mea-
correspond. The increase from 1805 to 11314 in Newspaper re- sure was one of the utmost importance to the commercial in-
venue was 300,0001. In the nine years following, with the terest of Scotland : and he would take upon .himself to say they
addition of ld. on the stamp, the increase was only 4,000/4 would be excessively alarmed if they heard that the question
whereas it ought, if it had followed the propel-firm to have pro- I had been made any matter of doubt.
duced 100.0081. An additional shilling, was laid upon the two_ Mr. 'l'. WI LSON, though not connected with the country
lend-threepenny advertisements. which had produced no cor- ie question, readily supported the bill ; and be was so convinc-
responding increase. Philadelphia was ten times less than Li- ed of its beneficial tendency, that he should he glad to see a
verpool in size and commercial consequence; yet six times as similar measure introduced into our own commercial law.
many papers circulated at Philadelphia as at Liverp-01, and illreSCA R LEW would be sorry to see any such thing in-
there were seventy times as mane advertisements published, the traduced into tine law of England ; tor it would lead in its open.
price for insertion being about fide the price of the newspaper anion to a great deal of fraud.—( Hear ,)—For if all partners in
-itself, I id. Reduce the dirty on advertisements to Is.. sad the a partnership were aide to sue or to be sued, what would be
stamp so that the paper might sell at 3d., and more newspapers the condition of a defendant, who having been proceeded against
would be circulated and more revenue collected. He would by all of them, should have judgment in his favour ? What
guarantee the Right Hon. Gentleman against loss._(Laugh_ would he db, in very many cases, for his costs ? How would
tern—So anxious was he, that lie would almost become per- he be able to recover them ? Its was to be hoped, therefore, no
sonally responsible, if. at the end of a year, any loss should such measure would he engrafted upon the law of England._
accrue. He entreated the Right lion. Gentleman to make trial As to the bill itself, he must be allowed to say that it was
of it for one year, and concluded by moving. to leave out the clearly a declaratory bill.
word " supplement," for the purpose of reducing the stamp on - Mr. BARING was sorry that the matter did not appear to
all newspapers to 2d. have been more digested before its introduction in this shape.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQL
TER would have i The Noble and Learned Lord had intimated that in Scotland
taken the guarantee of the Hon. Gentleman for the purchase of it was absolutely necessary, and could not be done without ;
an estate, but cotilcl not in a matter of half a million of revenue. an Hon. and Learned Friend of his (Mr. Baring) had just de-
He would say that this Bill conveyed a -treat benefit to News. dared, that he should be sorry to have it introduced into the
papers, and he had reason to believe that the owners were ge- law of England, because it would be productive of fraud; and
nerally satisfied. What might be done hereafter, he could not . that observation was cheered by the Hon. and Learned Attorney
say ; but really so muddied been done with so many kinds of General. Now if, as he himself believed, this would be a bene-
taxes, in-reducing them, that there was no opportonity left for ficial measure for one part of the empire, why should it not be
more experiments at present. There was no hardship in re- also for another? He concurred with his lion. Friend (Mr.
deicing the tax on supplements, and preserving it on News° Wilson) in wishing to a similar provision introduced into our
papers. Government in the first case made a reduction to Per° law. This was another instance in which lawyers had shewn dust
sons who published instruments upon which a considerable they were not the best judges of what laws would be most bene-
portion of duties was chargeable; and surely that was no reit- licial for merchants. In Ireland an old law existed, authorizing
son for giving something too those who could not make any smil I individuals to form partnerships with a limited responsibility;
publications. As to e read of any dearth of Newspapers, but in England the 'natter remained in a state of doubt and
that did not strike hint as very probable. Scarcely a week difficulty, which he had no doubt the lawyers considered
elapsed in which he did not receive specimens of new Papers to be the perfection of all law, becatise Hon. and Learned
which came out with a brilliant prospectus, promised the high- Gentlemen had never taken any objection.—(A laughn—
est advantages in the way of information, and solicited hie pa- Against the present -Bill, however, he was disposed to vote, for
tronage. He had not yet given it.: but this would seem to one of the reasons that seemed to have induced his Hon. Friend
show that the appetite for that species of amusement—or nor- t
(Mr. Wilson) to support it, namely, that it did not apply to
telligence, if the Hon. Gentleman would have it so—was. all parts of the united kingdom.—(Hear
likely to be stinted by the senitliness of the provision : there
'The
: AT' fORNEY-GENERAL said, it had been consi-
were alnindant means for gratifying it at hand at all times.
After a • few words from •M Hr. E M nega-
E, .the clause was _.
dered by those who introduced this Bill, that they were pro-
ceeding upon -what was law, anti had been considered to be law
tived e and the Bill was read a third timeind paased.
Upon the question of the third reading of the Customs'' in Scotland for 100 years and upwards. At the suggestion of
Laws Repeal Bill (we believe), Nome commercial men, he himself had lately entertained some
Mr. ROBERTSON begged to call the attention of
the houghts ofproposing a similar measure in respect to England;