The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-21 00:00:00

this Bill, to endow them with the power of deciding debts 0
40s. The R-corde, s f Ireland agrued in t,p 'Ohio that cases
of atijudica•ion, as well as actions of replevin, should be
placed in their jurisdiction. The Bill prupusid to give
that pow..r. t; 111,. 0,-vernmnt, who, he understood, in-
tended to oppose the Bill, would consent to its second
reading, he should feel happy to consent to its amend-
ment in Committee, and to alter its title in accordance
with the views they might express. He begged to move
the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. NAPIER. telt it his duty, notwithstanding the
strong grounds urged
,by the Hon. Member in support
of the Bill, to oppose its being read a second time.
on the ground than it would be utterly inoperative with
respect to Ireland. It was impossible to apply the pro-
visions of the County Courts Bill in operation here to
Ireland with the existing machinery. In Ireland the
jurisdiction with regard to the recovery of small debts
depended entirely upon the residence of the defendant,
to whom this Bill had especial reference. Under the
Civil Debts Act a creditor could be proceeded against in
the court of the county; and nothing was more con-
venient, more just, more cheap, or more summary, than
the mode of proceeding laid down by that Bill; but
would the Bill of the Hon. Gentleman work in that
spirit? It would not. Apply it to the case of a whole-
sale dealer in Dublin, who had creditors throughout the
different towns of Ireland. He would have, in order to
prove his case, to send his bookkeeper or collector
throughout that country at great expense and incon-
venience. The 128th section of the English County
Courts Act empowered a creditor to bring his action in
a court wthin twenty miles of the residenee of the de-
fendant; but then they had here the important advan-
tage of cheap and rapid railway conveyance for wit-
nesses, which did not exist in Ireland. Besides, the
courts could summon witnesses from any part that
might be deemed necessary ; but in Ireland! witnesses
could not be summoned unless they resided in the county,
BO they could not compel the attendance of any witness
who did. not reside in the county. He merely mentioned
that to show that taking one section of an enactment,
which might work exceedingly well in a particular part
of the kingdom, in connexion with its other clauses,
would be exceedingly unsuitable in another Act
having reference to another part of the country.
In addition to that, there was no power to compel the at-
tendance of witnesses out of the county. Again, there
was no power given to either party to summon a jury,
though such a power was lodged in the court. He
thought the rights of debtors were not at all preju-
diced in the way that had been suggested by the
Honourable Member for Cork. It the demand
was a small one, it was very unjust in the debtor to
put the creditor to the expense of an action.—(Hear,
hear.) But under the present Bill he might pay the
debt into an) court at any time, even up to the eve of
the trial, and unless the creditor would take that sum
out as a full discharge of his debt and costs, he
lust all his costs, and the debtor was in the
same position as if he had paid the money from the
first. If the debtor thought the proceeding in a sane'
rior court was hard, he (Mr. Napier) thought he should
come in the first instance and say so, rather than run
the chance of a, verdict . of 20L at the end of.
the prose. dings. He (Mr. Napier) said,
wid,tahsat.ibuysttlyberoe.
law
as it at present stood every fair case
He was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman who brought up
the Bill was actuated by the .best motives; but he was
sure also, when he considered the difficulties of carrying
it into effect, he would review the provisions
of the proposed measure, if he did net
altogether withdraw it. The Bill, besides
the objections which he had stated, would coo'
vert the petty sessions courts of Ireland into places re;
sembling criminal courts, where the most disgraceto;
scenes would continually occur. For those reasons, ea.°
finding that no further improvement could be made in tbe,
present machinery in Ireland under the well-recognised..l
system of assistant barristers' jurisdiction, which worked
so well, that he thought it was not at all desirable that
any change should take place, he thought it his duty to
oppose the Bill.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE hoped, after what had fella
from'the Hon. and Learned Member opposite( Mr. Napier)'
his Hon. Friend the Member for Cork would not press
his 13111.—(Hear.) He gave every credit to the Sea'
Member for his good intentions, but he thought he wow,.
find his attempt to assimilate the law of England !fit;
that of Ireland, which he was doing by the present Dim
was not so very easy a matter. He (Sir W. Somerville)
himself had made some of those attempts, and he found
great legal obstructions, which he did not foreseetheit
been thrown in his way. The Hon. Member for (3,111
seemed to think that he was doing by this le
what was useful and beneficial. Now in
Bill of last session, to which allusion had bees
made, for the recovery of small debts uhuff
e
101., which was only a partial attempt to assimilate to
law of England to that of Ireland—if his Hon. Fries";
the Member for Cork, had known what a strong prote.s.
the Government had received from the inhabitants,
would have paused before introducing this Bill. $e
(Sir W. Somerville) would just add that the Attotall;
General for Ireland entirely concurred with the Ti!
expressed by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Nare '
with respect to this Bill.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS sincerely trusted that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would not object to PI!
Bill going into Committee. To many! of the 014:;ie
tions he could not- answer,- but it struck "',.0
that as the principle of the Bill was allowed to v 0
good, that the details of it might be so altered as t,sf
render them entirely efficacious for the benefit of
the country. It was true that the enactment
r:i
the Bill might be injurious to the sever
members of the bar, and take that practice out of Wl'
hands which had previously been confined to the filP,)
rior courts.—(Cries of " Bear, hear," and " No, no.
He found much in the principle which was in keeping
with common sense, and he believed that in some 01.1.4
much difficulty was created from the insuffictevo
means of the suitors. It appeared to him that et
reasonable case had been made out, and that inquiCl to
any rate ought to be instituted. With respee.,oh
the 40s. clause, that was a subject which required niv,be
consideration. He would, therefore, desire that ;of
principle of the Bill, being affirmed, it should f0r„,133_100
go into Committee, and then be referred to a Ov4oo
Committee up stairs.—(Hear, hear.) He thought 'to
this would be the best way of assimilating the Pre:. of
of the small debts courts in Ireland to the prison:
present followed in this country. The principle of
Bill was allowed to be good, and the details might e '
P
be arranged.
M. HUME said that he conceived that this Billoto
certainly to go through its second reading, and if it,_7o,
necessary to alter its various clauses, why let it u_7 „ht,
furred to a Committee up stairs—the clauses
.!;etbe
as some of them certainly appeared to be faulty; hThita
principle of the Bill was allowed to be good, and.'oo6*
never been the practice of that House to throw_..o
measure which was intrinsically good simply becetwof
was introduced by a private Member, and s°l32_ vote
details were defective. If there were no other rem
than this, there was at least sufficient cause to g_traurdeitit
the second reading, that it was a standing.
with Irishmen that the British Parliament did P
legislated
late for Ireland in the same way in which theY in sc.
for England. It appeared that the Bill was goned with the
cordance with the law of the country and with
irLieolird
at the
feelings also of a large portion of the
nity. Some fifteen years ago the Noble for
head of the Government had brought in a niettaait.t_...ie,
extending the principle of this Bill, or at least .
ciple which was identical with this,
ismbyaltih debts
this country which was to be recognisedcourts. He had gone to the Noble Lord, and
him why he did not extend his Bill to debts forsu;bi
(Hear, hear.) If the principle was good in England,
not extend it to Dublin, especially as it was in accords
with the feeling of the public in Ireland ? A great Ps'
was in favour of it.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE—A great party was also Or
posed to it.
,a Tel
Mr. HUM Nothing more likely. He coin._ the
well conceive that there were great objections tu. foe
Bill on many accounts. It was very likely to save b°
fees out of the pockets of the Learned GentlemenTri,a
usually officiated in the higher courts of the
capital.—(Laughter and cries of "No, no.") Hot_l`,ectioti
therefore, that as this was the only apparent_ o.iyt
_eces•
that the Bill should be read a second time, and.
sary, be referred to a Select Committee up stairs.
ciefa
Mr. J. O'CONNELL quite concurred in t tor
which had just been stated by the Hon. Member
fr°lll
Montrose.
to d_i•ff:e rot. th.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL begged
the Hon. Member for Montrose in his estimate th:
likely effect of a Small Debts Bill. Inste_tt_ted
County Courts Bill haying injuriously . che other,
legal profession, it had worked just ien.._ottee, 1,11:
way. The Bill was in many respects d i„'„eiber
he submitted to the Hon. Gentleman the suil`e shout,,:
Cork whether it would not be better thas_ootber
withdraw the Bill altogether, in order that t`i,e existing
might be brought in, in accordance with 11"
machinery of the courts in Ireland? tadati°ll to
Mr. SCULLY would join in the reconitn,e
would tiO
withdraw the Bill, provided the Government
i
'
dertakest
Abrßinmg
AinNa mceßatsluwreFooußthDe ssunpbjporected se . 5
sao
was most laudable.
bject
He Wildember, that the elan
cond reading of the Bill, becnaguhsteJia:t:iet=iihtgvoloof
had been said by the Hon.
FAGAN said that the Government Weill
• duce a Bill upon the subje
•et he at
themßr.ill were fully sufficient to support its details. d 00.
uld
dertake to intro
they
vvo-
second reading to a divisio ..,0 the
he would press the
tog" .000
withdraw the present measure; but if y.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE , would undertake
awn
matter his best consideration, with a sincere annai, but beo
ed sire to do all he could for the benefit of Irela: the
would not undertake to bring
-00
subject.
• the or 0..
Mr. BOUVERIE thought that, such being , .0
of the Right Honoureble Gentleman, hele hear)
sent to the second rer.ding
°t
the
Bill—(Neer'
and fix a late day for its going into Committee.ein a measure
The House then divided, when there apP 29
For the second reading ••• 31
Against it ... ••• •••
Majority against it •••
The Bill was accordingly lost.
(LEFT SITTING.)
BIRTHS.
0,
L erS
the lady of G. W. Denys, Esqa
of a ea" Lady -
Ilarieyestreet,
On the 15th inst., at Framtield-hous
On the 16th inst., at Upper
Palmer, of a daughter.
oir
DIED. f Siltr ► o
near Inverness,
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"lull,
in.st a ed 43, Henry
At Uxbridge, on the 16th _ gee.
f the late W. Hull, of that place. 0
strOeent,trbealll-6mtlattlinEsta's't, ;jgheadO7srth Walden
son o
Scn Office' 101 g
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at
aatyoy, in the t*
London: Printed and Published
The
MURDO Yviere. tj-f
Strand, in the Precinct of' the
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