The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-27 00:00:00

Pill ; and the main feature of that principle was the ex-
tensiqn of the suffrage, wherever it could be so done with
a prospect of obtaining a respectable constituency.
A very long and desultory conversation ensued, in which
Lord Althorp, Mr. Alderman Wood, Mr. Hunt, Sir Ed-
ward Sugden, Sir Charles Wetherell, and Lord John Rus-
sell were the principal speakers, as to the legal meaning of
this clause, and as to its effect on the city of London ; in
the course of which

Sir R. PEEL made the following observation :—Now
that the Committee had agreed to a uniform qualification,
I.e wondered that it had not occurred to the Noble Lord
to introduce some simple and uniform test of that qualifi-
cation, such as that of the Jury Laws. If the qualifica-
tion for a common juror were adopted as the qualification
of a voter, he was sure that would prevent much litiga-
tion, which undoubtedly would take place under this Bill
if it ever became a law. The assessment to the poor-rates,
such as was adopted in the Jury Law, would be at once a
simple and uniform test. He would not say assessment to
the house-duty, ly,cause that might imply the permanency
of that tax ; but he would suggest, as they had adopted
a uniform qualification, to decide that by the principle of
un assessment to the poor-rates. At the same time, he
roust say, that he was not an advocate for one uniform
right of voting, and he said God forbid that it ever should
become the law of the land as it was now proposed to be
introduced.

The discussion on the legal meaning of this clause was
then again continued, till at length
Mr. Serjeant WILDE, at the sound of a legal argu-
ment, requested to know what was the question before the
Committee? If he understood rightly, it was the last
proviso of the clause; and in discussing that, lion. Gen-
tlemen had discussed the whole of the clause.

The CHAIRMAN read the question, and stated that it
was whether certain words should be inserted in clause 21.
Sir R. PEEL then said, that when the Committee was
about to frame a new Constitution for the country, he must
object to being tied down to the exact letter of the line of
the clause under discussion. He was afraid that this clause
had not been considered in relation to the existing laws ;
and he must beg to inform the Learned Serjeant that he
had probably overlooked one law to which he begged to
call attention. By the 59th of Geo. 111., it was provided,
though he was afraid that he must not read the preamble,
as it cast reflections on the class now to return Mem-
bers to Parliament. The Ris,ht Hon. Baronet, however,
read the preamble, which stated, " that whereas there
were, p trticularly in large towns, houses let out to tenants
and lodgers, who frequently changed their abodes and did
not pay the poor rates, and that the owners of the houses
obtained a large rent on account of the tenants so escaping
the payment of rates, and therefore it was enacted that
the owners of these houses should be liable to pay the rates
for such houses." This was a general Act, and the law of
the land, and under it authority was given to seize the
goods and chattels of the occupiers of such apartments or
tenements as were liable to the rates, and to distrain upon
them for the rates due while they so occupied these tene-
ments ; and it provided, also, that if the occupier paid the
rates, or bad his property distrained, he might deduct what
he paid out of the rent for which he was liable. That
was the general law of the land. The owners of the
houses were liable to the rates, and in case the occupiers
paid, they might deduct what they paid from the rent. He
(lid not bring forward such a statement for any purpose of
delay; but it was proper, in reference to the clause under
discussion, to refer to this Act of Parliament. If the te-
nant made the deduction of the rates from a ten-pound
rent, he would be disqualified for a voter. If be made
the deduction of his rates be would not occupy a ten pound
house. He would suppose a case where a house was
rented at thirteen pounds, and the rates amounted to four
pounds ; then if the tenant paid the rates, and deducted
them from the landlord, his rent would only be nine
pounds, and he would not be entitled to a vote. No no-
tice was taken of that in the Bill, and it was a manifest
contradiction to the law. Some arrangement might be
made between these conflicting enactments ; the discre-
pancy admitted, he believed, of a remedy, and he called at-
tention to it with a view 'to make the Bill as perfect as he
could. He was sure that those who drew the Bill never
could have adverted to the 59th of George 111.

Mr. Serjeant NVILDE said that, as far as he had an
opportunity of considering this case, the tenant in joint
oceup:ncy would be entitled to recover nom the land-
lord, if he paid the rates beforehand for the purpose of
voting. It frequently happened, however, that there were
a number of small houses of different sizes, of which the
landlord paid the rates of all in one sum, by composition.
Now the only difficulty be felt was as to the ascertaining
of the proportion of rates in such cases, so that the tenant
might be able to recover his vote, for he was inclined to
believe that in all cases the tenant could deduct the amount
from the landlord, or recover it at law.
After some conversation between Sir R. PEEL, Mr.
Seijeant WILDS, and Mr. C. FERGUSSON,

Sir E. SUGDEN said, the true statement of the case
was really this :--The clause, as it at present stood,
allowed the tenant to vote on paying his rates ; but at the
same time (and the Noble Lord (Althorp) admitted it)
the tenant, when he bad so paid, was not entitled to re•
cover his vote from the landlord, or empowered to deduct
it. He really thought that, after differences of opi-
nion expressed by all the gentlemen connected with the
law, respecting the true bearing and effect of the clause,
the Noble Lord should not press it, without having pre-
viously attempted to make it somewhat more intelligible.
Mr. WILKS observed that the clause was undoubtedly
not very clear ; but he thought it better it should pass,
'han the tenant be deprived of the chance of a vote.
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that if the clause was per-
mitted to stand, they would be compelled to pass an Act
to d. Clare that it was not intelligible. The Ministers were,
however, deceiving the people with hopes that would not li
be realised. They proclaimed to the people of Manchester
and Birmingham that they were giving them a great boon
in the ten-pound qualification, but it would be found, whe❑
the Act came into operation, that it was so worded, few or
none of that class of persons could take advantage of it.
Under the clause, as it now stood, the tenant might gain
a vote by paying his rates, but then lie could not recover
from his landlord, so that be was driven to the necessity
of losing his vote or his money.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
The Government expressed a great respect for the rights
of the operatives, and he (Sir C. Wetherell) admitted that
they were a highly intelligent, respectable, and trust-worthy
class of the community. But how did the Government
treat that class, with all their popularity-hunting profes-
sions of regard to their interests ? Why they deceived and
deluded tbeni with the prospect of advantages which they
were not to enjoy. He (Sir C. Wetherell), although he
did not profess so much, would deal more fairly with them.
He would not say to them, " You ate to have a vote,"
and afterwards leave them to pay h pound in the shape of
rates, which it appeared they had no power to recover.
The opinion which a Learned Serjeant and eminent pleader
gave on the stibj'et was, that the tenants might pay their
rates, and he was inclined to believe (a style of language
very common with the Learned Serjeant's profession, when
they gave an opinion)—he was inclined to believe they
alight afterwards recover by an action at law.—(Hear,
and a laugh.) If the Government would but print this
opinion at the end of clause 21, and send it down for dis
tribution in Manchester, and Birmingham, and the manu-
facturing districts, he apprehended that the Ministerial ex-
citement in favour of the great popular• measure would not
be quite so sparkling and animating as they had been led to
believe.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
After a few words from Mr. PRAM), on the contradic-
tory nature of the proposition,
The clause, which was an addition to the original one,
and gave a vote to all persons in joint occupation, provided
that each person in that joint occupation paid a sum of ten
pounds yearly, was read and agreed to.
Mr. MACKINNON then moved, " That no person
who receives rent from lodgers in any house, shall be
qualified to vote for such house if the yearly rent be under
twenty pounds."
Lord ALTHORP opposed this amendment, and obe
served, that if the objection was worth anything, it was
equally applicable to houses of fifty pounds a year, if the
landlords had lodgers.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, that the best way of
meeting the difficulty would be to enact that no person
.hould possess a vote unless he paid a rent of ten pounds
over and above the sum received from his lodgers.
After a few word♦ from Lord ALTIIORP and Mr. HUNT,

Mr. MACKINNON said, as the sense of the Committee
was against him, he would ask leave to withdraw the
clause.—Clause withdrawn accordingly.
Mr. MACKINNON then moved, " That in all cities or
boroughs which contain from 300 to 500 houses of 10/.
rent, the qualification to vote may remain as stated in the
section ; but in those which have from 500 to 1000 houses
of 10/. rent, the qualification to vote shall be 15/. yearly
rent; and in those which have 1,000 houses and upwards,
the qualification to vote shall be 20/. rent."

Lord ALTHORP said, that the subject had been fully
discussed last night ; and as he had stated, not once or
twice, but at least twenty times, the grounds on which he
supported the clause in its present form, he would not
again trespass upon the patience of the Committee.
Mr. Twavon and Colonel Sitrrnoara supported the
amendment. The Hon. Member for Lincoln retnonstrated
against the noise and inattention in the House, which,
nOtWitbOttuding all the efforts of the Chairman (of the