The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-20 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of :he EXCHEQUER said,
with respect to the proposition of the Government, two
of the Irish Members who had addressed the House had
spoken in its favour, two had opposed it, and two had
done neither the one nor the other, but had protested
against any additional burden being thrown upon Ireland
in its present condition.—(Bear.) He could assure the
Hon. Member who brought forward the amendment,
that he was not disposed to taunt the Irish Gentlemen
with any desire to shrink from the performance of their
duties. During the last three years it had been his duty
to listen from week to week to the powerful tales of dis-
tress which abounded in that country, and the diffiail-
ties by which the gentry were surrounded. He had no
no hesitation in saying, although ho made the statement
without the least intention of conveying offence,
that the conduct pursued by the Irish Mem-
b,rs had considerably aggravated the difficulties
which presented themselves to the Government
in legislating for Ireland. The discussion of the
great question of adapting an ameliorative policy for
Ireland had been reduced by them to a discussion of the
details of the poor-law. and they contended that the
destitution which afflicted that country was not owing to
the three years' famine, but to the maladministration of
that law and the legislation of that House. Could any
person who knew the deplorable state of many of the
western districts, the wide-pervading distress, the ruin
that befel many proprietors of land from receiving no
rent, and the desolating of the land—could any man who
had knowledge of those things state in truth or sincerity
that this melancholy condition of affairs was to be attri-
buted to the largeness of the area of taxation and the
mode of assessment, and not to the dispensations of Pro-
vidence. The poor-law, he admitted, might have aggra-
vated the pressure on property, but no man, surely,
could doubt that life to a considerable extent was saved
by its operation, and by the assistance which Parliament
rendered in the shape of grants and loans, and other
legislative measures. Ho could not agree with the
Hon. Member for Roscommon that, because an additional
amount of poor-rate to the extent of 1,300,0001.
had been raised off Ireland during the year ending De-
cember last, there was any breach of faith with the
landed proprietors. The sum so levied, it was true,
doubled that raised in the previous year, and that which
might have been expected in the ordinary course of
events; but circumstances which could not have been
guarded against, and which it was not in human power
to control, rendered the great increase altogether matter
of necessity. But for the poor-law, much as it had been
cavilled at, distress and destitution and death in many
of the unions must have been far greater than they un-
happily had been. He maintained that no considerable
diminution of the area of taxation would have righted
those unions, and that no matter what alteration they
made, extraneous assistance would still have been
necessary. Having alluded to the opinions put for-
ward by various Members with reference to the
question of meeting the difficulty, and to the justice
and expediency of rendering Irish property liable
to the support of Irish poverty, and baying
drawn attention to the opposition manifested, not
unnaturally, he admitted, by English Members, to the
system of grants and loans, the Right Hon. Gentleman
said it was conceded that in the present state of Ireland
extensive aid should be given to the distressed unions.

In one of these unions, itilrush, eviction to a greater
extent had been carried on than in others, and in
the spree° of twelve months 13,000 humsn beings were
sent houseless on the world. All parties admitted the
necessity for assistance, and the question was, in what
manner could Ireland be most fairly and lightly sub-
jected to the impost required for the sustainment of her
destitute population? The House of Commons had
already decided by a large majority that Ireland should
contribute the sum considered necessary. Several
of those examined before the Poor-law Com-
mittees, he admitted, thought otherwise, but the
House of Commons had setthd the point. The argu-
ments against the rate in aid no doubt were ♦ery
strong—(Bear, hear)—had he ever denied that they
were so?—(Hear, hear.) He was not ashamed to admit
that they were strong, but so were the arguments against
the income-tax.—(hear, hear.) There was a precedent
for the rate in aid to be found is the system of taxation
for relief purposes, adopted some years ago in the
northern counties of Scotland, and the delegates from
the Irish boards of guardians who assembled in Dublin

last year, put forward a proposition es an amendment of
the poor-law, which was essentially the Government pro-
position. Beyond the necessity of the case, there were
other arguments in favour of the measure. The rate was
to be limited to sixpence in the pound, and it was in.
tended to continue in operation for two years only. Hav-
ing defended the course taken by Lord John Russell
in convening the Irish Members, and making to them
.he proposition he had done, he proceeded to. state
that the motion of the HonourAle Member for Kerry
did not appear to meet with much favour from the repre-
sentatives of Ireland. He believed that further assistance
was necessary for the relief of Ireland. He had asked
from the House many grants and loans for the benefit of
Ireland, and he could not then enter into the discussion
as to the judicious as of the manner these have been
appropriated; but as to the necessity for the sum now
claimed there could be no doubt; and ho, therefore, would
feel justified in putting into the bands of the Chairman
the vote of 100,0001., to be granted on the security of the
Rate in Aid Bill.

Mr. DISRAELI said the first part of the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was
founded on the assumpticn that gentlemen on his side of
the House were opposed to all grants of public m ney to
Ireland under present circumstances. But the assump-
tion was erroneous; for no Gentleman on his side of
the House had at any time opposed these grants to Ire-
land from the publio funds.—(Hear, hear.) All they
hal done was to insist that grants of that kind should
be accompanied with measures of a permanent character,
which would prevent the repetition of such demands
upon the public funds for the benefit of that country.—
(Hear, ho tr.) That was the ground of the opposition to
the first of those grants at the commencement of the
session; and although the Right Hon. Gentleman had
endeavoured to make it appear that his Hon. Friend the
\lember for Northamptonshire had shown somewhat
f inconsistency in prop:lag certain reso'utions to the
Rouse, which declared grants of public money to be
.mpolitic and unjust, he had negheted to read the
other portion of the resolutions, wherein it was stated
unless such grants were accompanied with remedial
measures. That, then, was the case with gentlemen on
his side of the house generally. They hail never -op-
dosed grants of public money to Ireland; but, while
:hey were ready to meet the emergency of the case in
that way, they called upon the Government to constitute
a policy which would prevent those occurrences which
created such emergencies in future.—(Hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman had made a strict search in order to
find precedents for the rate in aid now proposed, and had
quoted the 23d.0f George 111. as one of those precedents.
that was the case where certain counties in Scotland
were authorised to be assessed to support the poor of
those districts; but how could there be a rate in aid
where there 1V.13 no poor-law?—(llear, hear.) Th2re
4as no poor-law in Scotland at the time, and although
the Act in question might be an argument for a poor-
'aw, it was not what could be established as a prece-
dent for a rite in aid. But he also quoted another
aF.e. The resolutions of an assembly never before
heard of, the time of whose assembling was never
known, and of whose deliberations they had heard for
the first time that night. That was said to be a meet-
_

;lig of the boards of guardians of the Irish unions. But
several gentlemen wbo gat near him were members of
chose boards, and yet they never heard of such meeting.
As to the question before tha House, he felt called on to
vote for the amendment of the lion. Member for Kerry.
—(Hear, hear.) Ile would vote for that amendment
mainly, though not entirely, for the reason stated by
more than one lion. Member, namAy, that in the diffi-
cult position in which they were placed, the income-tax
wou;d not press so heavily on the small farmer of Ire-
land as the rate in aid would do; and that was a consi-
deration which ought at all events to influence those ou
his side of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
also, that it would be desirable that that portion of the
proceeds of the general income-tax paid into the Im-
perial Exchequer, and hvied from Irish resources,
,hould be applied solely for Irish purposes.—(Elear.)
He did not say that the adoption of such a system
•vould be auy gain to the empire generally; but if Ire •
land did require extraneois aid, it would be the mode of
givinc, it agreeable to the feelings of the people. He was
also favourable to the income•tax, because it was an im-
post which touched all descriptions of property—(Hear,
hear)—and although in the present instance its exercise
was not proposed on any great scale, yet he thought it
was their policy to protest against that system of op-
pressing the land by peculiar taxation. Besides, he had
no confidence in the measure of the Government, and
ter this reason, above all others, because it was evident
to him that Government had no confidence in them
salves.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Mem-
ber here alluded to the tactics of the Government with
respect to their Irish measures, first proposing a grant
of 50,000 L, without a promise of any other measure;
then getting a Committee appointed, and, in the out-
set of its career, checking it in its coarse by the pro-
posal now before the House, presenting the singular
anomaly of Irish Members voting for such a
measure in the Committee, and then having the hardi-
hood to save their country by opposing it in that House.
That measure, he conceived, was not fitted to prevent
another emergency of the. kind they had now to deal
with from occurring again. They discussed it up to
Easter, and then some days before Parliament reassem-
bled, a paragraph was seen in the journals recognised as
having received an official stamp, inviting the Irish
Members to assemble in Downing-street, on a certain
day, where they would be received by the First Minister
of the Crown. Ile ventured to observe, at an earlier
period of the evening, that the conduct of the Minister
in thus acting was unconstitutional. And although at
that time he was called to order, and yielded, as
believed
ha always did, to the opinion of the chair, h
ha was in order at the time. After what the Chan.
celior of the Exchequer had rem
remarked
repeated
npeatd
thee
subject, he might be pardoned if he e
that the step thus taken was u nhcegonusetr said
t u
todn unconstitutional.—
--a -t
(Hear.) The Chancellor of the E
there could be no harm in meeting thexc Irish Members,
he would always be glad to meet them, and hear their
views on subjects affecting Ireland, but he conceived the
k
defence set up was a somewhat Irish :tad of a d efence.
—(Laughter.) He considered it was unconstitutional
for a Minister of the Crown to call together in a private_
place a large section of the House of Commons, and
confer with them as to the measures to be discussed in
that House. No doubt it was right for a Minister,. or
any leading Member of that House, to call together
their supporters and ask them to support him; but
in the present case the Minister asked a large number
of the Members of that House, not for their support, but
for their counsel, and that was what he said was uncon-
stitutional. It was a shuffling off responsibility from the
shoulders of the Minister—(Hear)—and there was be-
sides something ludicrous in a Minister of the Crown call-
ing together some hundred Members to his private official
residence, end asking them could they give him an idea?