The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-19 00:00:00

was distributed mosti4Yl~fartially.there was the county in
whith he resided, and for Whose interests he, felt deeply, a
County of upwards of one inillion of gores; and *high Contained
300,800 inhabitnts, was allowed only one mere Member than
the comparatively insignlficant city and county of Durharn,.-.-=
There was also the flourishing And inipriiVing town of Grimsby,
It was to be shorn of one of tts *unbent., and for *hat reason P
The reason gi'Ven on th 6 discUssion of the last gill Was that
Its popnlation fell short Of the niluilier of f.'hr lho4sa.hth
hut What Was the fact now ? By the late popular
returns it appeared that it hoW fir exceeded that number, ut
still its Member Was hot to be restored, He considered that is
Majesty's Mith%te s had hastily brought torWattl this hieqture
beterb they hail had
sUiffiCient Antbrinatiem in order to keep
theinserveS in place. No dratibt it *as a Most unpleashig ditty
for p Yuan to say, ant not able to fill the situation which I hold,
but, he editaideltd that lithe present Ministry had retired as they
okight to have done, they would Nave de§erVed well of their
Cohntry.
Mr. SLANgY would hot tre?ass ibiig upon the time and at-
tention of the M. 4,01 blit he could not give a silent vote upon a
quest:Hu tit Such importance, and when the interests of a large
proportion of the 'people were at stake. He was not one who
was bound to any party by interest—his opinion was unfettered.
He considered if ever there was a time when Conciliation to the
people was necessary, the present was that time. Reform had
been called for with a loud Voice from every part of the country,
and his Majesty's Ministers in obedience to that call had brought
forward a measure which would give the people those rights
to which they Were entitled, and of which they had been
so long deprived, and at the satne time deprived no
one Of anything Which they had a right to possess. His
Majesty's Ministers-' While they had been anxious to retain
the great principles of the late measure, had sheirn a most laud-
able desire to conciliate the tlori. Members Opposite who were
opposed to the Meastire. This would alto strew I-lon. Mem-
bers that the bill ought to go into Cainmittee, when they
might propiaSe any amendment which in their opinion
would improve the theashre The question how was, not only
in that House, but throughout the country, whether a great
measure of Reform was not necessary. This was a question
which had beeti answered in the affirmative by the united voice
of the people. He would consider that thoSe who Voted against
theßill this night, voted against the Wishes Of nine--tenths of those
whom they ought to represent. If he were allowed he would
state a few facts which slieWed the absolute necessity of a change
in the representation. seventy years ago the agricultural popu-
lation Was two to one to the manufacturing. Twenty }Mars ago
they were equal, and now the manufacturing population was more
than as two to one to those who are engaged in agriculture. Still,
while'all these changes were gbiiig forward, none took place in
the repretentatiod of these Interests. He would state one other
fact which was proved by the papers on the table of the House;
from these papers it appeared that 33 of the boroughs which
were placed in schedule A paid in taxes only 100/. each, while
33 of those towns which were to have representatives paid
to the comparative enormous amount of Slti,ooo/. It
was but just, as well as politic, to give to these large towns
what they ardently desired. It had been said that they were
virtually represented, but that was an argument which no sen-
sible man could honestly support. There was another reason
why representation ought to beconceded to these large towns. It
was well known that the population in these towns were engaged
in trades which were liable to great fluctuations, and of course
their interests requ iredVigilahtatt ention,which could only be given
by their having representatives in that House for themselves.
He asked, would it not be an advantage to such great towns as
Manchester, Sheffield, and Birmingham to have representatives
in that House, to state the causes of their distress, and to propose
some remedy for them. Some distress arose from causes over
which the Government had no controul, which was an addi.
tional reason why they should have representatives who would
be enabled to point out to them that the Government were not
in fault, and were not the cause of their distress. Those per-
sons would then bear with patience the evils which they
knew could not be remedied ; but at present there were persons
to be found who told them that all the distress arose from
.he measures pursued by Government. He felt convinced
that many of the disturbances that prevailed occa-
sionally in some of the manufacturing districts, would be
either wholly prevented in future, or much lessened if those
great bodies had representatives in that House. He asked was it not
a matter of justice, policy, and expedience, that the great cotton
and manufacturing districts should have representatives? It might
be said that although they had no direct representatives, yet that
they were indirectly represented by Members for other places.—
(Hear.) It was true that many gentlemen might attend
to the causes of distress that prevailed in those districts,
but would they he believed, would any Hon. Member
for Old Sarum, Gatton, or any other close borough, though he
might speak with the tongue of an angel, be believed ? Those
Members were, doubtless, men of talent and intelligence ;
but while it was known that they had no constituents
they would not be believed. Looking at the question in which.
ever way he could, he felt it to be one of the deepest concern to
themselves and their posterity. There were a million of persons
engaged in the cotton trade, giving a property in the land to the
amount of 30 millions a year. Ought they not to be represented
in that House ? Should any reasonable proposition be made in
the Committee, let it come from whatever quarter it would, it
it appeared to him to be any thing like an improvement upon
the Bill, he would give it his support, for all he wished was to
make it such a Bill as would fully satisfy the people. There
were eight representatives given to the districts engaged in the
cotton trade; three to the different metal trades of Birming-
ham, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, &c. ; three to the woollen-
manufacturers ; one to the Potteries (a trade employing an im-
mense number of people, originally created by a single family, and
now exporting to the amount of two millions a year) ; one to the
carpet manufacturers; three to the shipping interest, and a cer-
tain number to places in which great wealth had accumulated by
the industry of individuals. Now he had not heard any objection
to those places, but the objection was to the disfranchisement of
close boroughs. The people, however, would not be satisfied
till the representation of those boroughs was destroyed. So
long as the people saw that those borough representatives
spoke only the opinions and wishes of their proprietors,
there would be no peace or tranquillity. He implored the House
to abstain from that violence in discussion, which had marked
the proceedings of last session, and to consider calmly and deli.
berately what they should best do with the Bill now before them,
and with the people demanding it. His deep conviction was,
that unless the question was settled, and that speedily, the
people would have their nature and character changed
from that peaceful, calm, and industrious state, which they
before possessed, and should they get into a state of excitement
they would not be easily calmed, so long as the question on
which they had set their minds remained unsettled.- (Hear.)
About a dozen Members rose to address the House, but the
SPEAKER called on
Mr. CUST, who complained of the situation in which the
borough of Lostwithiel was placed in the new Bill, and wished_
the Noble Lord to give him sOrtie explanation of it for the infor-
mation of his constituents. He felt gratified that the rights of
the freemen had been looked to,and was glad to see ot her alterations.-
The present was indeed a troublesome season, and there was, he
feared, but one step between the chanrs that were now proposed,
if they were granted, and the destruction of the country; he.
hoped, therefore, that House would not willingly accede to the
second reading of the Bill

Sir JOHN BURKE looked upon the machinery of the Bill as
much improved through all its stages ; it had at last gained so
much, that if a division were now to take place, there would,
in addition to those who had previously supported it, be a great
accession to the number of its friends. Many had been con-
verted, and had adopted the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers.
Many Anti-Reformers had changed their opinions, and had be-
come friendly to the Bill, but none that had formerly supported
it would be found now to relinquish it. They had been taun'ed
with not having sufficiently debated the question, but surely after
the late discussion that objection could no longer be urged.
While he was prepared to give his most cordial support to the
English Bill, he was yet prepared to object to the Ministerial
measure of Reform that had been proposed for Ireland. He
would indeed, at the proper time, give notice of a motion for
the purpose of having the Scotch and Irish Bills read a second
time before going into a Committee on the English Bill. His
reason for this was that upon every principle of justice there
ought to be an addition to the Members for Ireland. The case of
Ireland, by means of this motion, would be fairly brought before
the House, and if too many Members were found to be given to
the metropolitan towns, it would be competent for the Committee
to determine how far Ireland might be benefitted by them. He
was prepared to show that whether considered according to
population, or extent, or propety, Ireland had not any thing
like her due proportionate share in the representation. In return
for the support which he should giveto the English Bill, hehoped
that Members would enter upon the Irish Bill with the same zeal,
candour, and impartiality which the Irish Members had already
bestowed on the English Bill.
Mr. BARING WALL having been an opponent of the last
Bill would continue to oppose the present, because in all es-
sential points it was its counterpart. There was no "person
who felt more strongly than he did, the awful situation
in which the country was placed, and who felt more
deeply than he did, the absolute necessity that something
in the way of conciliation should be done. The Hon. Member
thought it most important to state, that this Bill was the Bill
belonging to Government, and not of theirs (the Hon. Gentle-
men on the Opposition side). They had nothing to do
with the responsibility of it, and he could not allow the Members
of the present Government to say they had made alterations, and
that those alterations were concessions to theopposers of the Bill.
They were no concessions at all to them—they were con-
cessions to reason and justice. He was, however,
ready to admit that most of the alterations of this
Bill might be considered as amendments. The sche-
dule A had been taken upon a new basis.—(Hear, hear.)
Little time had been given for Honourable Members to
reflect upon whether that basis was one on which it
would be expedient to ground a schedule of disfran.
chisement, should a disfranchising schedule be agreed
upon at all, but he thought the House ought to have time
to consider before they were called upon to approve -or
disapprove of that schedule.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Hethought there were many reasons which ought to have in.
duced the Government to make more concessions than
they had done in the measure which they already had
brought forward. He could not but call upon his Majesty's
Ministers to recollect that since Parliament had last
met, the voice of the House of Lords had been against
them. He was sure the Members of his Majesty's Government
would be the last persons in the world to assert that there

was no property, no talent, no right in the House of Lords
to be regarded upon a great and important question like
the present.—(Loud cries of « Hear.") He called upon the
Government to recollect that not only had the House of Lords
declared against them, but that the Church had declared
against them. And he would say, when he heard arguments
raised concerning the interestedness of that great and learned
body, that the House ought never to forget the important truth
that the Church owed almost the whole of the patronage
it enjoyed to the Lord Chancellor and the Government.—(Loud
cheers.) He thought likewise, that the very circumstance
of his Majesty's Government having proposed amendments
in this Bill, in point of fact proved to the House that the measure
which they had before proposed was not a perfect measure;
and that this was a reason why they should not now
come forward, and again say they would stand by the Bill, the
whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. He rejoiced in the altered
tone of the supporters of this Bill, though he could not
admit there was any alteration in the language used by the
Ministers. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had begged
the House to recollect that this was was no party measure. He
entirely concurred with that Honourable Member in that
sentiment and recommendation. He recollected also that
the Hon. Member for Liverpool had said that that House was
not a talisman of truth, but he sometimes said one thing in it and
sometimes another. When he (Mr. W.) recollected that gentle-
men, when they went into the country to meet their constituents,
would have to depend more upon the middling class of society
for their return than they had ever before done, he was not sur-
prised to hear it said that the language of Hon. Gentlemen
in that House should not always be the same out of the House.
For his own part he must say a speech less calculated
to support the provisions of the Bill now under con-
sideration than the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, he had
never heard delivered ; and he had no doubt that that
Honourable Member would be found voting on his (the
Opposition) side of the House. He inferred from that
Hon. Member's speech also, and speaking over the Treasury
Bench it was to be supposed that speech was upon authority, that
the metropolitan Members in favour of the measure would not
be found to be sustained. With regard to the nomination bo-
roughs, certainly public opinion had been so strongly expressed
against them, he for one thought it would be better to give
them all up together than to give them up by halves. He there-
fore was prepared to support the disfranchising schedule,
to the extent to which Government proposed to carry that sche-
dule, provided upon examination it was fbund to be a fair and
real one.—(Hear, hear, hear, and loud cheering.) He was
glad to hear what an Honourable and Gallant Friend had
observed repecting the borough of Lostwithiel. He thought it
a piece of gross negligence on the part of the Ministers that
they should come down and state that the borough of Lostwithiel
was in schedule B, and that on the very night after that state-
ment was made, the Bill itself should inform the House that
Lostwithiel was in schedule A.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Were
People's feelings, or were their just rights and privileges to be
trifled with in this way! Down went the post to Lostwithiel on
the night on which the measure was brought in, and informed
the inhabitants that the borough of Lostwithiel was safe;