The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COHMONS, JuLr 12.
(Continued from our First Edition of yesterday.)
CONVEYANCE OF MAILS BY RAILWAYS.
Sir JAMES GRA FIAM would take the liberty of
making a suggestion to the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, the President of the Board of Trade, relative to
the Bill for the conveyance of Mails by Railways.
He found that many most objectionable alterations had been
made in the arbitration clauses upon, which the greatest differ-
ence of opinion existed, and was likely to arise between the
railway proprietors and the Right Hon. Gentleman. The
course he would suggest was that they should go into Com-
mittee on the Bill proforma—to have the Bill printed with
theNlterations, and then the House would be able to see the
Bill in its perfect shape, so as distinctly to understand the
subject matter under discussion.
Mr. LABOUCHE RE would have no objection to accede
to the proposition.
Lord G. SOMERSET complained of the great incon-
venience that arose from these discussions, and he would move
that the Bill be re-committed.

Mr. HEATHCOTE had a great objection to Bills of this
nature, which were merely experiments upon the county rates.
Mr. M A ULE objected to the re-committal of the Bill, as
setting? bad precedent.

Dr: NICH.OLL asked if Clause A was in the Bill whet
committed. He considered it a most objectionable clause,
enabling the Inspectors to saddle the country with any ex.
pence they chose.

Mr. G b ULB URN thought tho Bill should bo re-commi
ed to discuss that clause.

Mr. MA UL E said he would bring the Bill on again to.
morrow, with the Highway Rates Bill, and Imprisonment for
Debt Bill.

COPYHOLD BILLS.
Mr. J. HEATH COTE wished to ask the Hon. and
Learned Attorney-General whether it was his intention to
proceed with the Copyhold Bills this Session ? He
merely asked this question in order that it might be
properly understood in the country.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that two of the Bills
were in Select Committee at present ; it was his intention that
they should be reported, and go through a Committee pro
forma.—(Hear, hear.) He should then move that the
Bills be re-printed, in order that they might be placed be-
fore the country, but he should not take any further steps dur-
ing the present Session.
BANKRUPTS' ESTATES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE moved the further considera-
tion of the Bankrupts' Estates (Scotland) Bill.
Sir WILLIAM RAE wished to know whether it was
intended to proceed with a Bill which made such an
immense change in the law, at this period of the
Session ? Here was a Bill which had taken four or
five years to prepare, and in which there were not less
than 145 clauses, and at this period of the Session, it could not
be expected to pass both Houses. It was intended to throw
the blame on the House of Lords of rejecting the Bill, and he
did not think that was a fair position in which to place that
House. He trusted that it would be withdrawn until the
next session, and then brought fairly before the House. He
moved that it be further considered that day mouth.
The LORD ADVOCATE was rather surprised at the
tone of his Right Hon. Friend. No doubt this Bill had been
before the house for fire years, but similar Bills had been
before the House 12 or 15 years, and it was extremely difficult
to obviate the various objections made to the Bill. If there
was any ground for further deliberation he had no objection
to give the opportunity. If his Right Hon. Friend had adopted
a different tone, he might perhaps have been disposed to ac-
cede to his suggestions, but under the present circumstances be
could not. If any Member in Committee could show any ob-
jection to any of the clauses, he would give the matter further
consideration.
The gallery was then cleared and the House divided, when
there appeared..._
For the motion
For the amendment
j Ma 28
After some further discussion the LORD ADVOCATE
postponed the consideration of the Report till Saturday.
PARLIAMENTARY BURGHS (SCOTLAND).
Mr. FOX MAUL E moved that the House do resolve
itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Parlia-
mentary Burghs (Scotland) Bill.
Sir W. RAE moved that the Bill be postponed till this day
three months.
Mr. MA ULE said it was most important this Bill should piss
to enable the Parliamentary burghs to make provision for their
self government. He knew that Scotland fully appreciated
the justice of this Bill, and no objection to it had proceeded
from that country.
Captain GORDON said it was a mistake to suppose there
was no objection to the Bill, because he had received a
petition from Leith, which he had not as yet an opportunity
of presenting, strongly deprecating the
Mr. GILLON said the better way would be to postpone
the Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE said the petition alluded to
was signed by only sixty persons, and that circumstance
showed that there was a general feeling in favour of the Bill.
Mr. GOULB URN believed the idea of passing the Bill
this session was not very prevalent in Scctland.
Strangers were theft ordered to withdraw. The House
divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 56
For the amendment 36
Majority
After a few words from Mr. GILLON, the Bill went into
Committee pro forma.
On the motion of the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, the
Public Records Bill was read a second time and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.
Mr. BE RNA L brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Dublin Police Bill.
Mr. PR YM E gave notice, that on the motion for going
into Committee on the Rating of Tenements Bill to-morrow,
he should move that it be committed that day six months.
The House then, at four o'clock, adjourned.
The House met again at six o'clock.
Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition numerously
signed by cotton-spinners and factory proprietors, praying for
an alteration in the laws regulating the hours of factory labour.
Lord' A SH LE Y presented a similar petition, signed by 500
women connected with the cotton factories.

Mr. HUME rose to address the House upon some subject
not in the papers for the day, when
Lord A SHL E kr rose to order, and said that his motion re-
lative to the Factory Bill was entitled, as it was the first notice
in the paper, to precedence.
Mr. GILLON then moved that the House be counted,
when, as there were not forty Members present, an immediate
adjournment was the consequence.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 12.
The Lord CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack a
the usual

—QUALIFICATION OF MEMBERS BILL.
This Bill was brought up from the Commons, as were se.
vcral other Bills whose titles did not reach us.
MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
The Duke of RUTLAND presented a petition from Great
Grimston against any further grant to Maynooth College.
Lord KENYON presented a similar petition from certain
Clergy of the county of Norfolk.
IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE presented a petition in favour
of this Bill, we did not collect whence.
IRISH POOR.
The Earl of DEVON asked whether any measure was
prepared for giving facilities to owners of land in Ireland to
employ the poor?
give Viscount
spec ifi M c
aELBOURNE was understood to say he could
no nswer.
Lord WHA RNCLIFFE postponed the motion of which he
had given notice for to-morrow, on the subject of Lords-
lieutenants of counties.

AFFIRMATION BILL.
Lord DENMAN moved the second reading of this Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested that it should
be provided that a certificate of issent should have been talm out by parties, renewable every' year, without the incurring of
expense.

BIRMINGHAM.
The Earl of RIPON wished to ask the Noble Marquis
whether a petition had not been received from Birming ham
against the grant of a charter for a corporation to that town,
and whether the Privy Council had yet come to a decision on
the subject ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said in consequence of
some misapprehension, the persons alluded to had been in-
duced to send up this petition requesting delay, that they
might have an opportunity of inquiring into the subject. As
to the progress made as regarded the granting the corporation
to Birmingham, his Noble Friend must be aware that he had
no means of advancing the matter any more than any other
member of the Committee of the Privy Council,
LOUGH FOYLE.
The Earl of WICKLOW wished to call the attention of
their Lordships to a message sent from the House of Com-
mons a few nights ago for a conference on the subject of
Lough Foyle Drainage Bill. The parties were being de-
tained in town at great expense.
Lord BROUG Li AM said that it was his fault that the
conference bad not been asked for. He would recommend
that it should take place at half-past four o'clock to-morrow.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for the House to go into Committee
on the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill having been read,
Lord LYNDHURST said that his Noble Friend the
Noble Duke in the last session of Parliament-stated to their
Lordships that he conceived, from the prospect of a Bill for
the proper settlement of the question of Irish tithes being pro-
bably passed, and also from the circumstance that it was
likely that a Bill to grant relief to the poor in Ireland would
also pass, the most serious part of the difficulties connected
with the measure now before their Lordships would by them be
removed; and the Noble Viscount at that time at the head of
the Government expressed his satisfaction at the communicas
tion made by the Noble Duke, but at the same time he took
occasion to state to their Lordships that he did not very dis-
tinctly see what connection there was between the question of
Irish tithes and that of granting Municipal Corporations to
Ireland. He (Lord Lyndhurst) believed that if the Noble
Viscount did not see the connection between the two ques-
tions, as he protested he did not, be was the only individual in
that House who was unable to discover it. For several years
the subject of Irish tithes had created very great agitation in
Ireland, and persons had been from time to time most active in
their opposition to their continuance. It had been considered
that the Corporations established in Ireland were for the most
part established to protect the Protestant religion and the
Church in that country—(Hear, hear)—and it was no doubt
considered by the Noble Duke, and certainly by him, that
it was of great importance that the barrier should not be
removed, but still more that it was of greater importance
that, in removing it, Corporations of a different tendency
should not be established until the great question of reli-
gion in Ireland should be set at rest; and the Noble Duke
reverted to this course of proceeding when he made the
remark to which he had already alluded. Now, at this
moment they bad reasonable expectation that the ques-
tion of Tithes would be brought to a proper settlement ; and
with respect to the other, that of the Pcor-law, it connected
itself with this subject in a most important way. For the pur-
pose of establishing Corporations in Ireland in which persons
in this part of the country might be disposed to place confi-
dence, it was necessary that they should be able to establish a
qualification which might be considered secure and substantial.
It was idle to talk of a 10/. value unless they had something
by which they might put the value to the test. When he said
this he had only to refer their Lordships to the evidence
which had been taken before the Committee of the other
House of Parliament on the subject of fictitious votes, In
order to show them how little reliance could be placed in a
qualification of this sort, unless it was measured and checked
by something else; and it was conceded by the Noble Duke
when he made the statement to which he had before alluded,
that there was no doubt that, if the system of rating under
the Poor-law should be established, a sufficient check and
test with respect to the qualification would ba afforded,
which would guarantee security here -as well as in Ire-
land, that it would not be merely a nom'n .1 qualification,
and that this plan would answer the purpose. These two
measures, although they had not actually passed, were in
progress, and lie had already expressed his opinion in re-
spect of one of them, and he had seen, in the progress of it,
nothing to induce him to alter that opinion; but when lie
found that it was so different from that entertained by the
great majority of their Lordship 3, he did not think it necessary
to press his opposition to the measure further, and he would
say nothing snore of it now. There was a test of rating given
by that Bill which might he apdlied to the Municipal Corpo-
ration Bill, and which he trusted would be a sufficiently secure
and substantial qualification. These were the only general
observations which it was his intention to make with respect to
this measure, and ho wou!d now come to the notice of those
particular amendments which it was his intention to propose
to the House, and he wculd not go out of the way to state a
single fact or circumstance, except to render them intelLgi-
ble ai far as possible. First of all, tilt re were two schedules,
connected with this Bill, schedule A aria schedule IL Sche-
dule A contained a list of eleven cities and towns, each of
which contained not only a considerable but an extensive
population. 'There was no intention, he bel:evtd, on the
part of any Noble Lord on that side of the House to except to
the granting of Corporations to the cities mentioned in this
schedule, according to the conditions ultimately specified in
the Bill ; but when the cane to schedule B they would fled
it contained a list of towns which were very different kens
those mentioned in =clicdule A, and which were evidentlycon-
sidered so by the framers of the Bill, from the fact of their
being inserted in another schedule. They were different in
population, and in this circumstance, that few of them pos.
sessed property to any considerable amount, while many of
them were in the possession of none at all. Now, it had oc-
curred to him and many other Noble Lords that it would be
highly unjust in them to force on these towns Corporations
under the Bill, which, with all the various provisions contained
in it, could not be given without very charges being produced
by it, and therefOre they thought that they should not
Create these expenses by granting to these towns, or ra-
ther by imposing co them, Corp-orations ; but it should
rather be left to the towns themselves to apply, if
they thought proper, to the Crown for charters to be
granted to them, corresponding in form and character with
those given under this Bill. He should, therefore, pro-
pose that if the majority of the rated inhabitants of any of
the towns—rated to the amount mentioned in the Bill—
shoultl think proper to apply to the Crown for a charter, such
as those provided to the towns in schedule A, it should be
optional in it to grant it. They thought also that a certain
time only should be allowed, within which such an al-plication
should be made, and if, at the expiration of that time,
none should have been made by these towns for the pur-
pose of having charters granted to them, they then
thought that the Corporations at present in existence should
terminate, and that the management of the"affairs, of the
pecuniary affairs, of the town, and of the other duties ne-
cessary to be provided for, should be vested in Commis-
sioners elected by a majority of the persons who would have
been entitled to vote on the election of officers under the
Corporation, if it was granted. This, then, was the first
amendment which he meant to propose, and he did not ex-