The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

PENDENCE.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, he had two questions
to put to the Noble Marquis opposite, but as the subject of
them had no reference to each other, he would put them dis-
tinctly. He first wished to know whether his Majesty's Go-
vernment had received any official information as to the barba-
rous expulsion of some Italian emigrants from the helvefic
Republic, at the instance of the Alliance calling itself Holy ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was altogether
ignorant of the fact alluded to by the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said his second question to
the Noble Marquis referred to the Spanish Colonies of South
America. An lion. Friend of his had put a question on this
subject on a former occasion, and it appeared that an objec-
tion had been taken to its form. He (Sir James) would, there-
fore, endeavour to put the question in a form which should
be perfectly unobjectionable ; and, he trusted, so distinctly,
that the Noble Marquis would only have to answer the ques-
tion Yes or No, or to say that the public interest required
him to decline answering it at present. lie wished to know
whether his Majesty's Government had yet fully recognized
the independence of the Republics formerly composing a part
of Spanish America ; or whether they had done any act imply-
ing such a recognition, and whether they intended to take any
measures for promoting a commercial Intercourse with those
Colonies ?

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that to the first of
the series of questions just put to him, he answered decidedly
in the negative. As to the second, his Majesty's Government
in their intercourse with those countries had undoubtedly
treated them as de iiteto governments ; had considered them as
Belligerents, and had accordingly respected their blockades.—
With regard to the question relating to commercial intercourse,
he had said yesterday that a Bill was about to be brought in
by his Right Honourable Friend, which would contain a Clause
for promoting such an intercourse. Recurring to the question
as to recognition, he repeated, that none had directly taken
place; and he trusted that he should not be called upon to give
any further answer until his Majesty's Government should have
had communication and explanation with other parties deeply
interested in the question.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said he was aware that for some
time past these countries had been considered with respect to
Spain as in a state of civil ivar ; and the,refore the latter he re-
garded as having the possession only of that part which she re-
tained by means of an armed force. The United States of
America had almost formally recognized the Republics. How-
ever, after the observation of the Noble Marquis, he certainly
did not think it right to press the questions any further.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the questions had
already come a little too early. He understood that no recogni-
tion had yet taken place on the part of the United States of
, America. It was true that the President had sent a Message
to Congress on the subject, and that a Committee had been ap-
pointed to consider that Message : nothing definitive had as yet
beets decided upon. He must beg leave to observe, that Hon.
Gentlemen were generally a little too eager upon subjects of
this nature, and assumed as decided many circumstances which
were of a very equivocal nature.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said lie was in the recollec-
tion of the House if he had stated that the United States had
actually recognized these Republics. He had qualified his ex-
pression, by saying " almost formally recognised them."
The conversation here dropped.
ALIEN ACT.

Sir R. WILSON said, he had to move for a Paper connect-
ed with a system adopted by that same Alliance, calling itself
Holy. He found by the Order Book, that it was intended to
move for a renewal of that odious and detestable measure, the
Alien Act. He would not call the doing so a positive breach
of faith, but it was certainly. a breach of an understanding on
the subject; for the opposition to that Act last year would
have been greater, had it not been understood that no motion
would be made for its renewal. He moved for a Return of the
Number and the Names of the Persons who had been appre-
hended in the last year under the Alien Act, and of the num-
ber of Appeals to the Privy Council thereon.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he trusted the Noble Marquis
would not this, as he bad done lasts year, decline arguing the
question upon its merits. Should he do so, and attempt to
carry the measure by a mere trial•of the strength of numbers,
he (Mr. H.) would avail himself of all the means within his
power to defeat his object. It was his determination in that
case to move perpetual adjournments of the HOLM ; and if
only one Member would stand by him, the Noble Marquis
would be defeated.

The motion was then agreed to.
COLONIAL DISTRESS.
Mr. M. URE presented a Petition from his Majesty's Coun-
cil and House of Assembly of the Island of. St. Vincent. He
stated that this Petition described in strong language the dis-
tress of their situation, in not receiving a remunerating price
for their produce ; that their distress arose from three causes,
viz. the heavy duties imposed on sugar and rum during the late
war, and which continued to the present time, notwithstanding
their being deprived of the advantages which the war gave them
in more extended commercial relations. Another cause of dis-
tress was the want of intercourse with the United States of
America, and lastly, the enormous and flagrant extent to which
the African Slave Trade was permitted by foreign States.
.This
enabled the foreign colonist to drive the British planter out
of the market, as the foreign colonist can raise sugars and ruin
at an expence very much below that which the British planter
can possibly do. He was much satisfied with the measure now
under the consideration of Parliament for opening the inter-
course with the United States of America, and he was persuad-
ed that his Majesty's Government, from the ready attention
which they paid to the representations of the West India Pro-
prietors, would support any further measure of relief which
might be necessary.
The Petition was brought up, read, and ordered to be printed.
LEATHER TAX.

Mr.LENVIS presented a Petition from the tanners and leather
manufacturers of Beaumaris, in the island of Anglesey, praying
for the repeal of the leather tax.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. COKE presented a Petition from the Hundred of North
Greenlow, in the county of Norfolk praying for a reduction of
the malt and salt taxes.—Ordered to be printed.
LICENSING SYSTEM.

Mr. FYSHE PALMER presented a Petition from the in-
habitants of the Borough of Reading, complaining in strong
terms of the present oppressive system of licensing public-
houses. The lion: Gentleman stated his entire concurrence as
to the mischieVous character imputed to this system by the
Petitioners. • _

After a few words from Mr. Grenfell, Mr. Benett (of Wilt),
Mr. Monck, and Mr. Lockhart, the Petitioo was ordered to be
printed.

IRISH WINDOW TAX,

Sir ROBERT SHAW postponed his motion until Wednes-
day, the 27th of May.
Mr. DENIS BROMTNE thought, that upon every principle
of justice, as well as of necessity, this tax should be repealed.
CRIMINAL LAWS. .

Mr. R. MARTIN (of -moved ior leave to brig in

a, OW •tcr allow Comisel" to Prisoners charged with Capita!
Offences.
• AI T. LOCKHART opposed the motion. • -
.After a few words from Mr. R. Martin, Mr. H. Drummond,
and. Mr. D. Browne, leave was given to bring in the BilL
PARLIAMENTARY RETURNS. •
Mr..HUME wished to know why the Accounts, ordered on
tie-.29th March, relative to the Third Class of the,Civil List,
tiad cot been • presented ? complained that. several Ac-
aounts- connected with the Barrack Department, as well as cer-
min Colonial Accounts which had been ordered long since, had
11c,t3ret. been presented.
The Marquess of LONDONDEARY said, that the Secre-
Wry' fOr the Colonies Would of course furnish the necessary in-
formation relative to his department. 'With respect to the Civil
list Accounts he had seen them that morning, and he hoped
they would be ready by to-morrow. Those Accounts were most
ilauorate, as he (Lord Londonderry) bad ordered the Accounts
sot only for the year 1792, and last year, but also of all the in-
termediate years, so that the House would have a most ample
itr_d satisfactory mass, of information.
Mr. lIUME signified his intention, should no objection be
made, of moving to-morrow for an Apcount of the Civil List of

Ireland.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that there could
be no objection to ,the production of such accounts as far as
they could be. Blade out.
NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS.
• The cHANcti,Lor. of the EXCHEQUEIt moved the
.Order of the Day for The House resolving itself into a Com-
mittee of the whole House, on the provisions for the half-pay,
and Naval and- Military Pensions.
Mr. GRENFELL was proceeding to make some observa-
tions relative to the extension of the Bank of England Charter,
Then
The CHANCELLOR of the ,EXCHEQUEI3. obscried,
that as this formed no part of the matters upon which the Com-
inittee was to be called upon to deliberate, the Hon. Gentle-
man must be outotorder.
Mr. GRENFELL considered that it was perfectly compe-
tent to him to discuss this subject upon entering into a Com-
mittee of Supply. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to in-
' form the Hon.-Gentleman that this was not a Committee of
Supply, but merely to consider of questions relating to certain
branches of the public expenditure.
The SPEAKER also admonished the Hon. Member, that
he was out of order, as the Committee the House was about
to resolve itself into was not a Committee of Supply.
Mr. GRENFELI. then stated that he should take the first
• opportunity that might be aflOrtled to him to renew the subject.
The SPEAKER having left the Chair, • .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
subject to which he was about to call the attention of the Com-
mittee was, the plan which had beenimparted to the House the
other night by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of London-
-deny.) He did not-mean the whole plan, but simply a de-
tached part of it, relating to the comimitation of an extensive
charge at present borne by the country in the shape of half-
- pay, and other pecuniary allowances. His Noble Friend had
shown that it was possible by the plan hi had promulgated to
effect a saving of three millions a year. It was not, therefore,
surprising that a saving so considerable, involving a financial,
. operation of such magnitude, should have attracted the attention
of the public ever since. After the extensive outline given by
-his Noble-Friend, there was but little left for him to do but to
• -fill up some of the details, the mention of which had been
-omitted. At first he would state the general nature of the
-plan, and then the particular principle upon which the propo-
sition of it was founded, and how it was proposed to carry it
-into effect. IVlueh, however, of course, must depend upon the
arrerwernents made when the negociation was entered upon,
and tnen it was to be considered that something was to be left
to the new-modelling of the House, when the measure, in its
. • details, should come before them. He thought it incumbent
•upon him, as the Finance Minister of the Crown, to call the
attention of the House expressly to a subject of this nature in
the first instance, in consideration of the novel nature of the
operation. It might be thought that he ought first to have
. made his bargain, and then have come to the House and sub-
mitte-d• the details of that bargain for their appiobation. In a
• case of this kind, however, he preferred coming first to the
.house, before he entered into the bargain, to obtain its ,
. general sanction to the principle of the plan. The plan
now: proposed to the Committee was only a separate
and detached part, from the whole plan of his Noble
Friend. It- involved no consideration whatever of the
important question of the currency of the country--
on which subject he should make a communication by-and-bye.
Neither did it refer to another important question, on which
he would enlarge in a few days, the Charter of the Bank of
England. No notice had been given as yet of any modification
' of the Bank Charter. The subject of an extension of the num-
ber of Bank notes would be before. the house very shortly,
- and he considered that question materially connected with that
of the Bank Charter. Leaving all these subjects untouched,
therefore, the single proposition he had to make was, to con-
fider how far the sums annually voted for the payment of va-
rious annuittes, granted as compensation and allowances for
services performed by the Army and Navy, and also for cer-
tain Civil Services, could be considered as part of the public
debt, and as Such be commuted for a fixed and permanent
charge of a smaller amount. He apprehended that the public
faith was pledged toThe party whose life was spent in the army
and navy, and that lie had as complete a title to his annuity,
subject to the conditions of the service, as regarded his liability
to be called Out, and other regulations, as the public creditor
had to his annuity for money advanced.—(Hear, hear.)—He
• considered it as the *payment of a debt of gratitude and justice.
' in other countries the charge was completely recognised as a
part of the public debt, and was provided for as such, and even
connected with the Sinking Fund.. He wished, however, to
leave the whole of' the regulations of the service as they now
stood, not varying the title or the mode or period of payment.
Whether the officer might go from half-pay to full, or the re-
verse, he wished to leave untouched. The whole consideration
he had to propose to the House was, whether they might or
might not obtain a material advantage by a commutation of
the natureproposed. A great variety of the annuities defray-
ed by the public were terminable at a particular period ; but
the -class with whom- it was proposed to deal would com-
prehend, as far as was possible, the whole of the Naval and
Military Allowances. He should like also to include all
compensations for the loss of Civil Services. Of those that
would -be excluded from the arrangement, were all the pen-
sions on the Consolidated Fund, to the amount of between
four or five hundred thousand pounds a-year. These consisted
principally of provisions made for the Royal Family and il-.
lustrious persons, to whom grants had been made by Parlia-
ment. These grants were not of a temporary - nature, and
therefore ought properly to be excluded from an arrangement
of this sort. He also proposed to exclude all pensions on the
Civil List, and the Four and a Half pea-tent. Fund. These
were funds particularly annexed to the Crown, and any other
arrangement with regard to them would be of the nature of an
encroachment on the Crown. The amount of the whole an-
nuities proposed to be included in this arrangement was about
- five millions of money per annum. By a reference to the esti-
mates of the half-pay of the Navy, Army, Ordnance, and the
other branches proosed to be included, it would be seen that
the whole amounted to little more than five millions. This
- was a charge, it would be understood, of a variable nature, and,
being dependant on death was constantly liable to change.
The calculation was founded upon a table sheaving the varia-
tion to be expected to take place upon an annuity on lives,
founded on a return of the casualties in a number of 15.000
-lives, which number composed about one-quarter part of those
to come under this arrangement, the actual number of whom
exceed 60,000, It was clear that these would forma general
Glass of decreasing annuities diminishing year by year. it
• was calculated that at the end of forty-five years the amount
would be diminished to 360,0001. The principle of the ar-
• rangement was, that instead of contracting for a quarterly
payment, it was a contract for a term of years. It might at
first be considered, that by converting these allowances into ,
life annuities, it was giving the parties a vested interest, such
as they did not now possess : but it should be remembered
• that the contract was:liable to the greatest degree of uncer-
• taints. t was subject to many contingencies to the disad-
vantage of the Cority4ctor, but '.this was no part of the case
• for -the consideratifin of the 'House. It was more easy to
inaicea calculation for one or two years, - where the contingen-
ecies would be within the view of; the Contractor. But the
• 'fluctuation which might bccur in the.space of forty-five
• years, could Searcely be foreseen. The advantages and disad,
vantages arising from the rise and fall-in the price of funds,
er in.thefrgue of money; which could be easily taken-into
calculation in contracting for loans of a temporary nature,
... ;vane here to be considered. The only consideration, on the
other hand, for Parliament was, as to a sum being given as a
fixed annuity subeet to no fluctuations, for a term of 45. years.
It was permane,nt,. Only subject to redemption. It might be
• a ouestion for Consideration how far the case might have been
different, and in what respect had this' been considered a. 7 debt,
and provided for by funding Exchequer bills. The large
• amount of the Sum.tabe provided for might attract the atten-
tion of the House. This arose out of the enormous expenses
of the late war. One of his Resolutions would state, that be-
- fore the war the amount of half-pay was 670,0001.- He took
this from the Finance Committee of-1795. It was in conse-
quence of the more liberal allowances made since that period,
that this charge had been increased by five millions. The
- pension granted to the private soldier was almost novel in prin-
ciple, and was certainly so in the extent to which it had been
• carried.' The wisdom and liberality of Parliament had pur-
slued this course as a system of reward for past services,
and encouragement towards the more speedy and effectual
recruiting 'of the army. It Might be proper for Parliament

in its wisdom to consider whether prospectively the system
of granting annuities upon so liberal a scale might not
be , modified still, however, never losing sight of the
.prin-
ciples of justice and liberality.l The Committee would see
that it would be improper to go into more minute calcu-
lations respecting the terms which Government intended to
put to this bargain. That must, of course, be fully explained
to the parties contracting, but the secret of Government
ought to be kept till then, and till the details were brought
before Parliament. Having thus stated the general prin-
ciple of the projected measure, he did not think it was ne-
cessary for him to make any further observations, especi-
ally as there would be many other opportunities for doing so
when the subject would naturally come under discussion again.
He was not aware of any objections that could be urged to
' the principle, or the details, as far as they had been ex-
posed ; but he had no hesitation in declaring that he was
deeply impressed with a conviction that the plan, if carried
into effect, would be highly beneficial to the public. The Right
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his first resolution—
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the amount of
Naval and Military Half-pay is about 5,000,0001. a year."
Colonel DAVIES rose to state the principal objections to the
plan that occurred to his mind. He was well aware that he
could be but ill prepared to speak upon a subject so complicated,
but he felt strongly that the project was nothing more nor less
than a covert attack upon the Sinking Fund: it was relieving
ourselves at the expense of posterity.—(Hear!)—He supposed
that the at the end of the Resolutions was founded upon a
calculation of the contingency of death alone, without reference
to war or promotion. If so it was a most cumbrous piece of ma-
chinery. He also thought that the public would be exposed to
considerable loss, calculating upon a payment annually, as the
Noble Marquis had stated, of 2,800,0001. For the first 16 years,
the contractors would pay 63,000,0001., and the public only
42,000,0001., which would beA gain to the latter of 21,000,0001.
For the remaining period the contractor would pay 39,000,0001.,
and the public 84,000,0001. So that the latter would be losers
to the extent of 45,000,0001., and deducting the one from the
other, the loss upon the whole would be 24,000,0001. Against
this, it was true, should be set off the interest of the sum saved
during the first period. The main objection he felt to the scheme
was, that it broke in most decidedly upon the principle of the
Sinking Fund.
Mr. BRIGHT observed, that the present thin state of the
House did not at all justify the remark of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, that the public felt a strong interest upon this
subject; and even of those individuals whose distresses were
to be relieved by the plan, very few were present.—(Hear.)—
He contended that the whole was a delusion, designed to direct
the -eye of the public from what ought -to be the real and
only object of Parliament, a reduction of taxation. The salt-
tax and the duty on leather, or their equivalent, might hereby
be removed, but the payment for it would be heavy indeed.—
Was it to be supposed that a contractor who would receive no
benefit until the expiration of 16 years' and whose term would not
expife for nearly half a century, would be satisfied with any thing
less than a very extravagant interest ? He hoped that the
Hon. Member for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen) would not, on
such a pretence as this, relinquish the motion of which he had
given notice. He (Mr. Bright) considered this plan affected
the wholq system of superannuations. Many most illegal al-
lowances, inconsistent with the letter anespirit of the Act;were
now made; and the project just introduced would confirm them
all, and render them legal. If it were carried, these allowances
could never be revised. He trusted, therefore, that the Com-
mittee would reject the first Resolution.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT insisted that the principle of the
scheme was directly in contravention of the Sinking Fund. It
was certainly, as the Right Hon. Gent. had said, of a most novel
and extraordinary nature. But if, after all that had been said
of late, the Sinking Fund was to be abandoned, would it not be
much wiser and more rational to allow the Commissioners for
the redemption of the National Debt to become the contrac-
tors ?—(Hear, hear !)--Thts the double machinery now con-
templated would be avoided, as well as the large bonus which
the contractor must expect to be paid. Those who undertook
the contract must be under a heavy responsibility as to the se-
curities. It was clear to him, that all these enormous pay-
ments must, at one time or other, come out of the public purse,
and he saw no reason for not taking the simplest possible
course, by resorting to the Sinking Fund at once. He agreed
with the Hon. Member for Bristol. _ _ _

.e.
Mr. BEAUMONT said, that whatever objection he had to
the plan in other respects, he must admit that it had a direct
tendency to diminish the public burdens. At the same time it
was clear to him that it was a departure from the former pro-
efessi6ns of the Right Hon. Gentleman relative to the Sinking
Fund ; but it was inconsistency th'at met his views entirely,
and he only wished that Right -Hon. Gentleman would carry
his inconsistency still further, and do away with the Sinking
Fund altogether.
Mr. J. MARTIN thoti:•'ht this proposition in violation of
the principle of the Sinking Fund, coming from Ministers was
a monstrous departure from their own professions. To him it
was a proof that they were determined not to give up the extra
Postmasters-General, nor in any way to diminish the wasteful
expenditure of the public money, in order to reduce the public
burdens. He should feel it to be his duty most forcibly to
oppose the plan.
Mr. GURNEY thought it Was clear that the profit of the
Contractors in this plan must, instead of,a saving, be the na-
tion's loss. He was rather inclined to agree with the Noble
Marquis opposite in saying that there was an ignorant impa-
tience for a relaxation of taxation in the country ; for he was
one of those who did not think that the reduction of the taxes
would carry with it immediate relief. The plan, therefore,
appeared to him to be calculated to entail additional evils on
the country, without any positive good to counterbalance.
Mr. T. WILS'ON said he should support the proposed plan,
because all the benefit would accrue from it which had been pre-
' dieted from the infringement of the Sinking Fund, without
the evils arising from such a course; It been said, that if
they flid not change their measures willingly, they would be
forced to do so by the taxes becotning unproductive. It was
for this reason he wished to preserve the Sinking Fund, which
might be useful in supplying deficiencies in case of such an
event occurring. This plan, too offered that means of reliev-
ing the agricultural distress which Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had so frequently•of late been calling for.
Mr. RICARDO considered the measure as a complete in-
fringement of the principle of the Sinking Fund. The Right
lion. Gentleman bed told them these annuities formed-part of
the public debt a the country. Ile asked him then, wilether
at the end of the forty-five years, by the operation of his
plan, they would not be more in debt than if they were to take
2,000,0001. from the Sinking Fund, To an invasion of the
Sinking Fund, he (Mr. R.) had no objection—he had all along
advised it. But it was the greatest inconsistency on the part
of his Majesty's Ministers to propose such a measure after their
repeated declarations on the subject. This was a part of the
debt which carried a Sinking Fund along with it, and would
finally extinguish itself. This plan, he maintained, was an
utter delusion. It was neither more nor lese than a scheme to
take 2,220,0001. from the Sinking Fund.
Mr. HUSKISSON Was sure he should not controvert the in-
disputable proposition of the Honourable Member, that the an-
nuities of the present charge, of which, they were attempting to
get rid, carried with them their own Sinking Fund; for, cer-
tainly, the death of the parties would ultimately put an end
to the debt, but he' denied that the molification of that debt
was any violation of the Act of 1792. 1-%is Right lion. Friend,
in. his plan, proposed that the debt shotild still carry with it the
certainty of extinction, when converted into annuities, for a
term of years; and lie (Mr: II.) should be glad if the Sinking
Fund, to which he was -a warm friend, was so sure in its opera-
tion. There were two modes in which the reduCtion of the
debt might be provided for—the one the raising of a Sink-
ing Fund, of one per cent. to be applied. to the reduction of the
debt, which fund was liable to be dealt with by Parliament, as
had been the' case heretofore ; the other the converting the
debt into annuities for, terms of years; which would be out of
the reach of Parliament. If all the debt contracted in the
last war had been in annuities, we should now be making
large yearly payments, but the reduction 'would be going on
without the possibility of dealing with the Sinking Fund.
With respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member:for
Portarlington, he could not see how the proposed measure in-
vaded the principle of. the Sinking Fund. There was a charge
which pressed largely and unfairly on the present tinie—it was
justifiable to raise a loan—( Hear, hear !)—to defray that charge,
for he admitted that it was raising a loan—(llear, hear !)
But taking care to accompany it with an indefeasible Sinking
Fund: Supposing. the whole debt consisted of short annuities
of five, ten, or sixteen years—suppose, then, they were all
diminished in amount but extended to forty-fiveyears, in what
way would that violate the Sinking Fund principle ?—(Hear !
from Mr. Ricardo.)—lt was all a question of expediency. They
had now five millions to apply to the reduction of the Funded
Debt; they had also annuities, the, term of which being filed
at forty-five years, the extinction was provided for. The
Right Hon. Member then referral to the late reduction of the
Five per Cents as a happy consequence of the Sinking Fund ;
if that Fund had been taken away two or three years ago, there
was no prospect that that operation could have been effected.—
The granting of life7annulties by the CominissiOners.of the Sink-
ing Fund was an illustration of the prim.„ he bad mentioned,
of tutting the reduction of the debt out of the reach of Par-
liament. The Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright) said that
the proposed measure would place superannuations, which had
been extravagantly and illegally ,granted; beyond the reach of
Parliament. His Right. Honourable Friend (Mr. Vansittart)
had distinctly commenced by stating that the jurisdiction of the
Crown, and the power of revision in Parliament, would be pre-
served untouched. The Hon. Member seemed to think that
the pensioners would acquire a new title by this arrangement ;
no such thing conliniappen. The bargain, as he understood it,
was-this : the Chaiiitellor of the Excheqtler said, I will pay you

for 45 years, a fixed annuity, if you will pay me certain sums •
'which I now name in each of those years. There was in this •
transaction no reference whatever to the lives of the parties, ex-
cept
on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, pre-
viottsly to his bargain, would ascertain from the tables of mor-
tality what sums he would be likely to require. It was true
no transaction of this kind could take place without an appa-
rent benefit to the contractors ; but the bargain might be one in
which it was as possible that the contractors should be losers as
the public. The Honourable Member for Bristol supposed it
impossible that the contractors should continue to advance money
for 16 years, without an extraordinary-chance of profit. The
Honourable Member did not understand the working of the
plan. There would be long annuities, a species of stock which
would find its value in the market, placed at the disposal of the
contractors in 'certain quantities, in consideration of their con-
tract. The return, therefore, would be in the same way as with
any ordinary loan. He admitted that in this case the parties
would have to calculate on the probable events of the next 45
years, the continuance of the rate of interest for money, and
the possibility of a long war, which might depress the funds.
These points Alight safely be left to the calculation of the mo-
nied interest ; but they might trust also to his Right Honour-
able Friend (Mr. Vansittart), that no unfair advantage should
be taken of their contingencies. Under different circumstances,
he might have been glad to have seen the country struggling
against its burdens ; but, under present circumstances, they
might take this measure, fairly, after all they had done for
posterity.—(Hear ! from Mr. Brougham.)—He understood the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman's cheer—he would not
now argue the expediency of the late war ; but, supposing it
to be necessary, we were entitled, after the efforts we had
made, to extend the term in which we should discharge the
incumbrance with which it had saddled us, so that we should ,
bear our average, but nothing beyond that. If we paid be-
tween two and three millions for Half-pay and Pensions, it
would be quite as much as our average ; for the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman would agree with him that they were
not soon again.likely to be engaged in a war whiCh would bur-
den them with such a charge.
Mr. BRIGHT and Mr. HUSKISSON mutually explained.
Mr. HUME said, that notwithstanding' all the discussion
which had taken place on this subject, he was still unable to
comprehend the intentions of his Majesty's Government. After
all he had heard from the Noble NI arqupss he did not under-
stand in what manner this dead weight applied to the transac-
tion before the House. These Resolutions had no reference
whatever to the nature and principle of the transaction ; they
might just as well have stated, that whereas the expences of
the Navy would amount to so many millions in a given num-
ber of years, it was expedient for the purposes of present relief
to spread the whole expenditure over .45 years. It would have
been much better to put the Resolutions out of the question, and
consider the transaction merely as the means of raising a loan.
The country was incumbered with a very heavy debt, and one
object was to pay off that debt as soon as possible ; another,
to relieve ourselves as much as possible from our present bur-
thens. The Right Honourable Gentleman had called upon
them to look to the expediency of the measure. Now, the
expediency correctly interpreted was the economy of the
transaction, and the House was bound to consider whether,
at the end of a given time, the country would be less in debt by
one mode of proceeding than by another. The question was
in what way the greatest relief could be afforded at the least
expence ? He contended, that at the end of this period the
country would be in a worse condition by the operation of this
transaction, than it would be by continuing to borrow money
by ordinary loans.—The Right Honourable Gentleman oppo-
site was aware of the difficulty of managing a new fund, from
the experience which he had had in the conduct of the
Three and a half per cents. He was aware that the public
did not like to engage in a new kind of money-transaction,
and that he could raise money on better terms by the Three per
cents. than by the Three and a half per cents. If such was
his experience with regard to this species of stock, in what man-
ner did he propose to manage a transaction which he him-
self admitted to be one of a novel and extraordinary nature ?
It would be impossible to find contractors ready to undertake
it without the certainty of great profit. Now, 'he contended,
that whatever profit was likely to arise from this transaction,
the public ought to have the benefit of it. This might be ef-
fected, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would allow the Com-
missioners of the Sinking Fund to undertake the management
of it. This plan had been adopted with regard to one
half of the loans, after it had been ineffectually pressed upon
the Chancellor of the Bxchequer for two or three years
by the Member for Penryn ( air. Grenfell), and the result
had been 'that three millions were saved to the country.—
The Noble Lord opposite• had agreed on the expediency of
relieving ourselves, and throwing some portion of the bur-
thens on posterity. He (Mr. II.) did not quarrel with the Noble
Lord as to this principle ; all he wished was, that it might
be carried into effect in the most economical manner. He was
convinced that if the country had had'no Sinking Fund during
the whole of the war, it would at this moment be many millions
less in debt than it was. It was his intention, at no distant
period, and he should have done this already, if he could have
obtained the documents for which he .had moved, to prove, that
if we had had no Sinking Fund during the war, the_ country
would have been less in debt to the amount of betthen 30 and
35 millions. The Noble Lord was acting upon two opposite
and contradictory principles--the principle of the Sinking
Fnnd, which was to reduce the debt by charging ourselves with
a greater amount of taxation ; and that of the new measure,
which was to diminish our present burden by spreading them over
future years. It was impossible that any Minister could conduct
the affairs of the country on such contradictory principles. He
trusted? however, that if the House should unfortunately sanc-
tion this measure, the whole transaction might be left open to
public competition, and that there might be no private favour,
no preference of individual claims.—(Hear !)--He, could not
but blame the Noble Marquis and the Right Hon. Gentle-
man for mixing up the consideration of the decrement of lives
with this transaction. The dead weight of the Half-pay and
Pensions had nothing to do with it, but they would remain, as
they did before, subject to the annual vote-of Parliament. They
did not rest upon the same fboting as the public debt, for his
Majesty might strike off any of them at pleasure, though he
could not touch the smallest portion Of the property belonging
to the public creditor. The long statement of the Noble Mar-
quis was only calculated to mislead the public mind ; and 'he
might just as well have stated that the plan furnished the
means of paying off the expences of the Navy, or of any other
establishment, as that it was a means of paying off the half-
pay. He (Mr. H.) did not object to spreading the charge
over future years, but he wished to take 'the 2,800,0001. from
the Sinking Fund ; and he was aatisfied, that if the Noble
Lord would consent to do this, he would conduct the transac-
tion with as much zeal and ability as were due from a Minister
charged with the finances of the country.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was surprised at the
manner in which some Gentlemen in that House changed their
views of particular subjects. He had that night found a host
of champions starting up for the Sinking Fund. He denied
that the proposition before the House went to touch the Sink-
ing Fund at all. What was the state of the case ? They had
a Sinking Fund which was assumed to amount to 5,000,0001.
This was to be tied tap to increase with compound interest.
Was it to be maintained then, that the principle of that Sink-
ing Fund was invaded, because it was proposed to be aug- •
merited by compound interest, instead ofsimple interest ? They
then found a charge of 5,000,0001. on account of the dead ex-
pence growing out of the late war. This, the Right Honour-
able
Gentleman had considered in the nature of a debt. It
VIM like a debt in this instance, that the faith of the na-
tion was pledged to make good the payments due to the
individuals whose names were on the list, but strictly speak-
ing it was not before them as a debt in any other. sense. It
was a charge which was covered by solid revenue, and the
means of meeting it were already in existence. Now he would
ask if Gentlemen meant to say, that as the annuities fell in, if
the present plan had not been brought forward, they would
have handed over their-amounts to the Sinking Fund ? Instead
of this, he apprehended it would be given to the public, as it
rested with the House to remit taxes, or to give it to the Fund
as might seem most expedient. To him it appeared fair that
the charge of the dead expense should be divided in the man-
ner proposed between the present generation and posterity.
Did Gentlemen mean to say the slightest benefit was likely to
be given to the Fund from the annuities falling in ? Were they
bound to do so after acting as they had done on the noble prin-
ciple of saving posterity from the burden of the late war to an
extent never before acted up to in any country, by submitting
to a property tax, which had taken from the people not less
than 150,000,0001: Was it because they had done this that
after they had established a clear Sinking Fund of .5,000,0001.
that they were bound to sacrifice to 'that Sinking Fund any
advantages that "might arise from sources-totally different ?
He thought that as the annuities on falling in were not
to be carried to the Sinking Fund, nothing could be more
clear than that the present plan did not at all touch . upon
the Sinking Fund. It was then for the House to consider whe-
ther it would be serviceable to divide the charge between
the present generation and posterity. He was convinced
tphenatcae.ctinßgustoiftheyniwould
year
o t a
quantum deserve
of
charge reproach
rity,
el 3,
and therefore the only question now was, in what mari-
ner could the surplus revenue of the country be best assisted ?
He said this with respect to what was now called the dead ex-
e ve every
to arise bearing any proportion to that which was now the sub-
ject of consideration, he should consider the proposed transfer
of the burden as a dubious if not an objectionabl'S line of policy.
The present charge was great* beyond any thing thatshad been
known before. It was, as lie had stated, sui generig—that he
believed was the expression he had usel, and therefore poste-
rity was sufficiently protected against any similar burthen.
A way was thus opened, which would no be open to them on
ordinary occasions, to relieve the country from part of the

expence under which it laboured at present. It had been '
asked, what had lives to do* with the consideration of this sub-
ject? He shewed that it was necessary to refer to the life
tables, in order to ascertain the sum that would be wanted
to complete the operation now contemplated, and to regu-
late the terms on. which it should be obtained. The House
had now to determine whether it would bear the average ex-
pence of the existing claims for 45 years, or whether they should
continue to bear the whole charge subject to such diminution as
would occur from the annuities falling in. It was for the House
to decide on this question ; but he had not expected that the
moment when they had tied up a Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001.
that the arrangement proposed, with respect to the dead ex.
pence, would be opposed by. those who wished to pull down
the whole fabric of public credit.—(Hear, hear', hear !)—How
these champions for the Sinking Fund had been induced to
come forward he could not well understand, but their aid
was not much wanted, as without them the Sinking Fund was
going on very tolerably. He was surprised at the alliance
thus formed between the friends and the opponents of the
Sinking Fund. Whether it was a holy alliance or an unholy
alliance, he knew not and he cared not—(A laugh)--but going
on as they had begun, he felt assured that the principle* on
which Parliament had hitherto acted would carry the country
through itspresent'difficulties. .
Mr. GRENFELL said this measure appeared to him to be
no invasion of the Sinking Fund. It was not more nor less
than an annuity of 2,800,0001. The only difficulty he felt was
the expence at which the object was to be procpred. He should
defer his opinion until he heard this stated by the Right lion.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). He hoped the
contract would be made by open competition.
Lord EBRINGTON supported the Resolutions. If they
,could not get all they desired, they must take all they could
get. As the measure was calculated to afford immediate relief,
he would vote for it, though he felt convinced that no effectual
relief could be given but by the repeal of taxes.
Mr. MABERLEY opposed the Resolutions. He denied
that there had been any Sinking Fund at all.for the last thirty
years. It was a mere delusion. It would be better at once to
apply to the Sinking Fund, and thereby save the expence of
two operations. This would be only, a deferred payment, and
no saving to' the public. The only way of saving the country was
by a reduction of the expenditure, and taking off taxes to the
amount of that reduction. He shewed dearly, two years back,
that this might be done ; that the expenditure might be brought
down to the scale recommended by the Committee of 1817.
The Noble Lord (Londonderry) then treated the proposition
with ridicule, and said it was quite impossible, though he sub-
sequently came down with propositions to the same effect him-
self. .

Mr. 'WILLIAMS said, he was friendly to a Sinking Fund ;
but a Sinking Fund actually employed in the reduction of debt.
Such a fund never existed here. On the contrary, the effect of
their Sinking Fund was to add to the public debt. He was
sure the Resolutions now before the House could not reduce
public burthens ;' on the contrary, it would considerably add to
them, and that at the end of 45 years, the debt would be less
observable than if the proposed amount were taken out of the
Sinking Fund. They were eaten adding to the public debt in
the most expensive manner. On the whole, they conceived the
proposed'scheme little better than a delusion. The excess of
produce caused distress, as well as taxation, that distress being
increased by the paucity of means of bringing that produce na-
turally enhanced by taxation. He was an enemy to all round-
about schemes—he wished an open statement of the state of the
country : if such a statement were made, the country would
come forward to prevent the most ruinous consequences to its
best interests.

Mr. BENETT (Wilts) agreed with the proposed measure,
but he thought it would be still better if the Sinking Fund,
which he always considered useless, were applied to the dimi-
nution of taxation.
Mr. 1110NCK thought the propOsed measure altogether at
variance with the principle of upholding a Sinking Fund. He
should, however, support the proposed measure, inasmuch as it
would lead to a reduction of taxation. He begged leave to sug-
gest, at the same time, if it would not be very desirable to
purchase up the half-pay of Ensigns and Junior Officers under
30 years of age, as many of them had now no hopes of advance-
ment in their profession, and might by that means be enabled to
embark in some other advantageous pursuit. In his mind the
present mode of applying the Sinking Fund, rather retarded
than accelerated the discharge of the public debt. A proper
Sinking Fund should be expended as income, rather than rea-
lized as capital.
Mr. W. SMITH asked on what. principle the calculations
were made up ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, they
had nothing whatever to do with the Resolutions now before
the House.

Mr. BROUGHAM said, as nothing had intervened to alter
the opinion he had formed on the Noble Lord's plan, he had
little to say ; but he could not avoid declaring again, that this
was a project in opposition to the Sinking Fund.. He did not
mean to say it was a direct subtraction from the Sinking Fund,
but the result was the same as if it were taken from the Sinking
Fund. The Noble. Lord said, the glorious exaction was to re-
lieve posterity, by taking burthens on our own shoulders, which
ought to fall on future. generations. The plan was a commuta-
tion on annuities for life. He stated what he conceived to be
the bargain, and observed that the half-pay interest had nothing
to do with it. • In the year 1842, the calculation was, that sup-
posing this bargain were not made, they would have to pay
the annuitants '2,000,0001. In 1842, they would have to pay
to the contractors 2,800,0001. ; and in the last year, 1845, they
would just have to pay 2,500,0001. more than if the present
system went on—so -that the burden would fall on posterity.
—He did not at all object to this, because he had always con-
tended that the burden ought to fall upon posterity ; at the
same time they were taking out of the pockets of the pub-
lic at large, at a very distant period, all the advantages that
could be gained at the present time. This, to use the phrase
of another country, was no more than a mystification of the
subject. He compared the plan to the economy of a Gen-
tleman who acted upon a saving plan in one wing of his esta-
blishment, and with great extravagance in the ether. It was
a fair balance on both sides of the account. The plan proved
that the Sinking Fund must be given up during the distresses
of the country. He said this not in the presence of many
Members. In proportion to the magnitude of a question the
Members flew off from debate. In the presence of thbse few
who had appeared in their places, upon this occasion, he in-
treated they would not be deluded by the plans of the Right
Hon. Gentleman at a moment when distress pressed so heavy
on the country.
Mr. T. WILSON said the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman
had spoken upon this question in the most extraordinary way.
The subject had been distorted by the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman. The Sinking Fund would not be impeded. The
plan would be of ultimate advantage to the country.
Mr. RICARDO .deprecated the arguments of the last
speaker, as founded on fallacy.
Mr. HUME wished to know how the Hon. Member (Mr.
Wilson) made all the calculations in favour of Ministers ?
Mr. WILSON explained.
Mr. IsIABERLEY said if this was so good a plan, why was
it not applied to the liquidation of the debt ? If good for
5,000,0001. it was good for 20,000,0001.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS could not allow all the calculations
upon the plan to be in favour of Government.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know whether the Chancellor
of the Exchequer intended to extend his credit, and pay off
other branches of public debt ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not consider his
Right Hon. Friend much indebted to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman for his suggestions. The House had been told how
Honourable Members ought to do their duty in Parliament.
He very much doubted whether coming down to the House
about nine o'clock, when Gentlemen had just taken a good
dinner, was the correct point of duty. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman had entered the House at that time
to mistify and obstruct the course of public discussion. There
certainly could not be- a better example of' irregular attend-
ance, than coming down at nine o'clock to complain of the
absence of others who had taken share in the debate at the
commencement, and had left the House.—(A laugh.)—The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had come to interrupt the argu-
ment of his Hon. Friend, which was appreciated by the House,
when the Hon. and Learned Member was enjoying the plea-
sures of the table.—(A laugh.)—His Right Hon. Friend had
given ample explanation, but the Hon. and Learned Member
did not hear it. The suggestion of the Hon. and Learned
-Gentleman applying the new plan to the general Pension List
would not be attended with benefit. Did the Honourable and
Learned Member never hear of the market being overloaded
by excess of commodity ? Ilis Right-Hon. Friend knew too
much of his own business to be tempted by the recommenda-
tion of any Hon. Member to go with 15 or 20;000,0001. of stock
into the market. The Noble Mar9uis recommended the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman, if he was desirous of assist-
ing in the execution of public business, and doing his duty
faithfully, to attend at five o'clock, and hear the argument,
and not confuse the debate by, reading lectures to Hon. Mem-
bers, who, having discharged their duty, had left the House,
before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman mile.

Mr. BROUGHAM said, he did not doubt the Noble Lord
would have, been glad to find him 'absent during the whole de-
bate; but the truth was, he was in the House at five o'clock,
and remained till half-past six. Seeing then there was no
prospect of the subject coming on, he retired for a short period
of time.—(A laugh.)—He believed he was not absent, more
than two hours and a half—(Laughter)and during that time,
he left his Hon. Friend the Member . for Worcester, who he
was sure would not suffer the debate to lose any thing by his
temporary absence.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I should have lost
nothing by it.--(A laugh !)

Mr. HUSKISSON did not wish to prolong the debate, but
as the Honourable and Learned Member said he was absent,
leaving the Members for Portarlington and Worcester to take
care of the debate, he would first inform the House what the
Hon. Member for Worcester said. The Hon. Member who
was to take rare of the debate said he knew nothing about it.—
(Loud laughter.)
111 r. HUME said the Right Hon. Member had dealt hardly
with the Member for Worcester, who only made a mistake in
one particular—(A laugh.)—He might ask who could avoid
falling into a mistake on a subject so mysterious?
Mr. BROUGHAM then said he had received no answer to
his question respecting the intention of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to make the plan extend to other branches of public
debt and expenditure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER......." If the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had attended at, the commence-
ment of the debate, he would have known my reasons for not
making it extend beyond the object in view."
The Resolution was then agreed to.
The third and fourth Resolutions were carried without op-
position.
Upon the fifth, to empower the Treasury to contract with
any Corporate Body or others for carrying the plan into effect,
Mr. Hu ME moved an Amendment, giving the Commissioners
of the Sinking Fund the power to contract instead of the
Treasury.
After some conversation between Mr. HUME, Mr. MasEit-
LEY, Mr. W. S➢wrn, and Mr. P. GRENFELL ;
Mr. BRIGHT considered the question so important that it
ought to be discussed, and therefore moved to report progress-
The Hon. Member soon after withdrew his motion, and as Mr.
Hume did not insist on his amendment, the resolution Was
agreed to.
The House then 'resumed, and the Report' was ordered to be'
received to-morrow.

SUPPLY.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply, in which
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the sum of
39,0001. British, -be granted to his Majesty to pay off the Irish
Five per Cent. Holders, who had not taken Four per Cent-
Stock. The sum was voted.

Mr. HUME asked whether it was intended to pay off All
contracts bearing five per cent. interest ? It was improvident
to pay five per cent. when money could be obtained for four
per cent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that, •
with some exceptions, these contracts had been paid off.
The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to, be I
received on Monday.
Mr. HUIIIE asked whether the 'accounts between the Est
India Company and Government were to be laid on- the Table ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the ac'
counts would be laid on the table when ready. They were at
that time under examination.
The House then Adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

BURTON WELLS RACES.

These Races, which commenced on Tuesday, in Bull Marsh
Meadows, Hants, were well attended.
The Burton Hunt Stakes of sgs each, two miles, weight, list"
Mr. Goodyear's Fame - _ - -. 1 I
Captain Hanson's Susan - - - - 4
Mr. Bouverie's Frolic - ~ - - 2 3
Mr. Horn's Radical - - - 3 4
Mr. Benson's Logic - - - - sdr
Three ran out of the Course and were distanced ; Susan the
favourite.

The Farmers' Plate-of 501.—Heats.
Mr. Goodchild's br. h. _ _ 3 1
Mr. Archer's Buckle -
Mr. Hansard's John - - - 4
- - . 1 3Ar
Mr. Goddard's gr. m._ _
_ _ 2 4 .
- -

A good race for every heat.—Rode by owners.
--...

THE TWO GREAT PEDESTRIAN UNDERTAKING'
Blakesley, the Yorkshire pedestrian, who started from 14°11;
don on Tuesday to go to Exeter by a circuitous route, inakTa
380 miles in six days, reached through Andover, three nw—
over his day's ground, at half-past ten o'clock on the first day
After resting four hours, he pursued his course through Sa111;
bury, at six in the morning, and finished his second o.'o' s
work at Gladstone, 139 miles, at eleven at night. He
Wa
proceeding to Exeter at eleven o'clock yesterday morning:;i
The match is for 200 guineas, and the pedestrian is bac
at 6 to 4.
Mr. Topping, a' farmer, who started from Oakinghatn or
Monday morning, to go 75 miles a day for foursuccessive si
;
for a bet of 100 guineas, resigned his task after doing 47 111140
on 'Wednesday. lie performed well the first two days, but 0
the third his legs got uneasy, and he at length was too lane t°
proceed.