The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-03 00:00:00

THE SUN. LONDON, FRIDAY JUNE 3. M 6.

Thus the Irish clergy will, by the proposed Bill, be paid
better, and have less duty to perform, than the clergy in any
other part of the empire. It appears by the report of the

instructive Commissioners, that there are in Irelei-id 852,064
members of the Established Church. Provision has been
made for 1,491 incumbents and curates of parochial benefices.
Rejecting fractions, there will be one minister for every 571
Protestant individuals, exclusive of bishops and other dig-
nitaries of the Church ; and supposing each family to consist
only of Protestant parents, two Protestant children, and one
Protestant servant, there will be a minister of the Church for
every 114 Protestant families. - Now I think that these are
very fair and valid grounds for arguing that the amount of the
income enjoyed by the Clergy of the Established Church in Ire-
land, considering the far less extent of their duties, and the com-
paratively limited number of their flocks, should not amount
to as much on an average as that of other Established Churches,
where the duties are more onerous, and the number of the
flocks is greater : but in my much abused and calumniated
Bill—in the Bill drawn up by the arch enemy of mankind
(Ministerial laughter and cheers, answered by Opposition
cheers)—in my Bill, so reprobated by the Hon. Member
for Oxford, the amount exceeds the average amount in
any of the other churches, while the extent of the duty will
be less, and there will also be a great deal less of inequality
in the distribution of the income.—( Cheers.) I do not speak
of the Catholic clergy of Ireland, because it is well known to
the House that they, like most other Dissenters, receive no-
thing at all from the state; but vvhen we are told with so
much perseverance of our niggardly dealing with the Ministers
of the Gospel, I think it is not quite fair to put out of consi-
deration that of those ministers of the gospel who have most
of work on their hands, to them both this side of the House
and the other side are content to assign nothing. I do not
know that there are any other material points which I have
not noticed. My Noble Friend stated as a great reason for
not alienating any surplus from the immediate uses of the Es-
tablished Church, that there arc 505 benefices in Ireland
without glebes. He states the number of chapels and churches
at 1,594, and says we are reducing the benefices to 1,250.
Now this includes the whole; and it is known that there are
only 1,177 parishes in
.Ireland which have churches. As re-
gards the arrangement of the benefices, a discretion is pro-
possd to be vested by my Noble Friend in the Privy Council.
We have endeavoured to frame our measure so as to make it
as little offensive as possible to the Protestants of Ireland.
We propose to refer to the judgment of a Committee of the
Privy Council, to be appointed not by the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, but by his Majesty, he being the head of the Church,
and wo have limited the members of that Committee to mem-
bers of the Established Church ; whereas my Noble Friend
proposes, in certain cases, to vest the same responsibility not
in a Committee—not in a selected Committee—but in the
whole Privy Council.—( Hear, hear.) The Ecclesiastical
Commissioners are to make their report to the Privy Council,
and that Privy Council may at any time consist, not exclu-
sively, as now, of members of the Established Church, but
even of a majority of the Roman Catholics.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, bear, hear.") By the way, as regards the investment
of so much authority in the higher functionaries of the State,
I thought that the recent proceedings of our opponents bad
shown they did Lest entertain so very sensitive a feeling.—
( Cheers.). My Noble Friend described the Fircall Union as
consisting of six parishes, having a Protestant population of
1,115 persons, with five clergymen, and a joint income between
them of about 3151. . Now, it is true that this Union does con-
sist of six parishes—that its population is 1,115 Protestants--
that there is a vicar and four curates--but instead of the income
being 3151. a year, the income is no less than 1,800/. and up-
wards ; for exclusive of the 3151. arising from tithe composi-
tions, there are no less than 2,039 acres, plantation measure, in
this union, viz. : 593 acres in Lynally, 528 acres in Killaghey,
450 acres in Ballyboy, 465 acres in Drurncullen and Eglish
parishes, But. observe; that instead of this being a
joint income between the five clergymen, the whole of the
revenue is taken by the vicar, who pays 74/ a•year to each
of his four curates. And what effect will the provisions of the
Tithe Bill have on this union ? It will be competent, if
deemed advisable, to erect each of these parishes, with the
exception of one, which has not any church, into. a separate
benefice ; and as each of the four benefices will then contain
more than fifty, and less than five hundred Protestants, to as-
sign to each incumbent an income in rent-charge to the amount
of 2001. per annum,: and in glebe land to the amount of 45/.,
•so that, instead of one incumbent swallowing up all the re-
m)? amount to 9801, divisible in equal portions, and which
venues, there will be four incumbents, whose joint income
will be an arrangement far more eligible both for the minis-
ters and the Protestants than the existing one. My Noble
Friend described the archdeaconry of Dublin as consisting: of
the Parishes of St, Peter and St. Kevin, having a poputition
of 19,114, and including three perpetual eurecies—Rath.
farnham, with a population of 990 ; St. Mary, Donnybrook,
with a population of, 3,500, and Taisney, with a population
of e 95, making a total of 14,599 members of the Established
Church I that is, a benefice employing sixteen clergymen and
eleven churches, and yet it is treated as a mere single be-
nefice by myself. Why, it is true that it has been suf-
fered to continuo as a single benefice up to the present
lime; but this is one of the very points which the Edclesi-
astieal Committee of the Privy Coueeil will have to take into
consideration, namely, whether it should be suffered to eon.
tinue a single benefice, or whether a more eligible distribution
n 1 the component parts of it might not advantageously be
made ; the present Bill proposes to correct the very abuse
which has been suffered to exist up to this moment, of which
my Noble Friend complains, and to.do that with the meet ,ads
vantage to the Protestants, due regard'being had to the Minis.
terial duties of the future incumbents, to assign them .a provi-
sion suitable thereto. The whole emoluments, arising from
minister's money, tidies and globe, are taken by the archdea-
con, who pays to each of these sixteen curates a stipend of
751. per annum ; not one of these curates are perpetual cu•
rates, as my Noble Friend conceives, they are mere stipendiary
curates ; and by them the whole duties of this extensive benee
five are discharged, the archdeacon himself having another be.
Deuce in the county of Kildare, where he resides for the most
part ; and with respect to this benefice the Committee
of Council will have the like power, as before,
considering whether a more eligible arrangement might
not be made, and of appropriating the income of the
several incumbents in regard to the duties which they
inay . have . to perform. Another case which my . Noble
Friend cited was the town of Belfast, a single parish con-
taining 17,942 Protestants, while the income derived by the
incumbent is just. 300/.,. and no more, Why this, and all '
other eit/ benefices, arc the very cases to which the provisions
of the 'I ithe Bill so peculiarly apply. Should the remission
of .301. take place, the incumbent of Belfast would- have only
2101. a year, and yet be obliged to support two curates 1 and
supposing each curate to be paid the legal stipend of 751. a.
year each, all the incumbent .would have for himself would he
60/. a year ; whereas, under the provisions of the Tithe Dill,
the committee of council may and ought to assign him the
maximum income of 5001. rent-charge, and 44/. glebe ; and,
besides, they ought to allow him a stipend Ar'lsl, for eiteh,
and as many curates as they may consider so large and inn-
portant a Protestant population to require ; so th it the income
of this bdncficc, instead of being 2101., with two curates' sti-
pends, eight be provided thereunto of 744 each the benefice
ought to he made worth, as the lid; provides, 9941.—v4. -444/
to the itiourribent, and 74/. to each of his curates, the *tons
bent providiug the rernaiisiug 251. to each curate out of big
4e,vii income. . Now, there is a plea which is consistently
brought forward against all our proceedings and all our argue
ments, the fesee of which I do not mean to evade, which is,
that the necessary effect of our .own principles and of our
own seasoning is to forbid us to stop where we are, and to
carry us on much further. I never have assumed in arguing
this onestion that our measure meets the whole case or
`• l
sounes t e entire grlCNiifli4e77-A 11,3ar)_Tlaut 1 do OX
that in a state of things such as is beferC us, u e 440 to 411
with affairs extremely involved,e complicated, and disordered;
we have to deal with a state of things of loag prescription aad
P'''!Ft'Fq! P-jrpirt.le,4 44041,tiq, which in sons w4y
other mustc`mct—(l~eat, heari-•-ana4.dcoftp for• Ward tq
suggest that which, according to first principles and strict rea-
soning, rnay. not be quite regular and right; but we suggest
thaf. •isj-eseesers to es. tinder all the circumstances of the
case, as an aeitlable`coinlliroryilse Oil a resserat4e adjustmenh
For this we are met with an angrsi outcry .a long re4§ts
eneT—for this we are subliected to the imputation of every

ceineeivAle base motive, and sre charged with an unworthy
s bie:viency.—( A faint cry of " Hem !" from the Opposition
ben ,hese which was replied to by tremendous cheering from
tl e Ministerial side of the House. ) Thus it is that we arc
drlv en, by the force of necessity, in self-defence, and in vin-
dieadon of our own character and conduct, to state the whole
case. I will quote here a passage from a quarter most un-
friendly to our own view. The last Quarterly Review is good
exhibited in this
enough to remind me.that.we have t. a grand return for 241
spiamriptt
s'ileastitnetnlernetla:nl, presenting the result ex
Protestant landed property 2,023,257
Roman Catholic 71,404
Protestant Tithe composition L82,531 9 10
Roman Catholic 2,337 2 5
If these returns present any approximation to the truth, the
Protestants possess more than nineteen-twentieths of the whole
real property of the country ; and, we really believe, notwith-
standing the lowness of their numbers, nearly the same propor-
tion of every quality which constitutes superiority among man-
kind." Now, if I *leave the property_( Opposition cheers)-
-and come to the population of Ireland—( Ministerial cheers)—
! find that the population is 7,943,00 Q, and that the members
of the Established Church amount to 852,064. \Veil, then,
Sir, for whom, for what class is it that the State provides spiri-
tual instruction and spiritual comfort ? That the State consi-
ders the spiritual-instruction and comfort of that class essen-
tial, the existence of an Established Church is the best proof.
Hear)-S-but I ask again, for whom and for what is the
provision made ? Is it not for the property, for the acres, for
the mansion-house, for the rich, for the few ? and is not the
provision made in such a way as to be of no avail to the poor.
to the cabin, to the many, to the people?—( Cheering) Can
I wonder that such a state of things has been a source of great
dissatisfaction ?—( Hear, hear.) Can I won,IST that such a
state of things is' at this moment a awe° of trouble to us ?
Can I wonder that such a state of things has brought the
Established Church into a position of decided danger? And
when we come forward and show ourselves willing to lend
our best assistance to remove the moat obvious points of
weakness, to strengthenthiaaoparts which afford the greatest
facilities for attack—when we recommend steps to bo taken for
concentrating the natural strength of tha citadel, then the cry
of trsai!hery is raised—( Cheer:)--=and we, who offer ourselves
as auxiliaries and friends, find that everything possible is done
by the party whom we are ready to defend, to confound Our
exertions with the machinations of the enemy.---(Cheers.) I
never pretended that if' we succeeded in carrying this, or any
similar measure, it must have the effect of putting down all
opposition, that it would secure universal acquiescence, or that
it would prevent all future agitation of this subject. No, Sir ;
in nothing.human can we, or dare we, say that our proceedings
shall be final. It is only for me to declare, that some such
measure seems to be imperatively called for by the circumstances
of the times,' and to offer the best prospect of giving peace to
the c mmunity, and of supporting the Established Church.
Looking to the past history of this question, looking also to
the present state of Ireland, I cannot exclude from my mind
the conviction that the Church of Ireland can be maintained in
its present extent and on its present footing only by blood—
( Hear)—and that is a price too costly—l will not say for the
truths of religion or for the grounds of faith—l will not so blas-
pheme the memory of the confessors and the martyrs—it
is a price ,too costly, not for religion but for an establishment—
( Cheering)—not for the spirit, but for the form of worship.
The learned and refined habits of the clergy no one is less
disposed than myself to depreciate ; no one is mare disposed
than myself to afford them-every possible encouragement on a
more propitious soil ; but situated as the Church of Ireland
now is—viewing her in what I cansider her most favourable
aspect, and with the eyes of a Protestant churchman—seeing
her in the midst of an unfriendly, a hostile land—knowing that
she is surrounded by a people by whom her every imperfection
is scanned with the severest criticism--I say, for the benefit,
for the service, and perhaps for the existence of a Church so
constituted, it is not enough that he should put away from her
the pomp and trappings of the elders, or the luxuries of her-
followers or ministers, but she must not hope for more than
will maintain her with efficiency—she must not hope for more
than is sufficient to secure to her the due administration of the
offices of piety ; and she should invite to her service men
devoted, men constrained to the task by the love of it,
and who would undertake it with no other motive.
I believe that the Bill I have introduced is calculated to
accomplish this salutary object, and that the substi-
tution of my Noble Friend is not. .The Bill I have proposed
is an acknowledgement of the consideration due to the whole
people, which the substitution of my Noble Friend is not,
because it leaves the whole people entirely out of its regard.
The substitution, then, of my Noble Friend, I believe not
calculated to be what I hope mine is—a humble instrument to
contribute to the zealous and efficient administration of the
Protestant religion, and to the greater and higher objects of
general charity, piety, and faith.—(The Noble Lord's return
to his seat was followed by protracted cheering.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said the present measure was a great
improvement upon the Bill of last year, as regarded the sup-
press:on of benefices ; in the present Bill there were no bene-
fices suppressed. In the Bill introduced by the Noble Lord
opposite last year, it was proposed to suppress benefices to a
considerable extent. lethe present Bill it was intended that
all Ireland should be divided into separate benefices, and that
in each there should be a clergyman of the Established
Church. In this respect, then, with the exception of a
slight difference in the details, the two measures were the
same. Of the present system of education in Ireland, he
was bound to -say, this, that before they extended a grant
for any such system, an inquiry into the manner in which
it was conducted was absolutely necessary.—( Hear, hear.)
He opposed the principle contained in this Bill, because he
considered it fraught with mischief. If he found a man's hand
in his pocket, although no money was taken' from it, was he to
be told that because there was no robbery, no harm had been
done. Spoliation must characterise any act which sought
to take property vested for one particular use, and that sanc-
tioned by the Legislature, until it had been shown that the
uses for which it was vested had been exhausted. The Noble
Lord the Secretary of State had stated that he did not look
to the truth of a creed, but to the increase of religious knoW-
ledge. Now, he considered that the Noble Lord was bound to
state what was the religion and what were the doctrines he
sought to propagate. If the State favoured any particnlar
religion, if' it supported any particular religious system, then
the NOble Lord should say what religion he was disposed to
abide hy. The Noble Lord could not espape in generalities;
but he was bound to partioelariae and define the religion
he . was inclined to maintain, The Noble Lord, who had
last spoken, said he had taken the maximum, but the
nzarimani was not to be found in' the enactments of the
Bill. Taking the provisions of the Bill into considera-
tion he should say, that instead of the clergymen re-
ceiving 295/. a year, the average amount of the bene-
ficces would be somewhat less than 1301. a year.—(Hear.)
Wi.h respect to this Bill, he was somewhat surprised to hear
his Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth accused of its
having originated in a suggestion of his. Nothing could be
more unfair than assuming that a hypothetical nrgment could
be the f.n.indation fir such a measure 1 notating could be more
unfair than ascribing 00 bantling to any Hon, Member on that
side ar the House, The author of the Bill was clearly on
the other side of the House. The author of the Bill was the
Hon, Member for Middlesex. It was almost begotten by him
in presence of the House.—(Hear and laughter.) He should
quote the passage in his speech, It was this; "He for one
saw no'reason why they need hamper themselves with benefices
at all." This is simply and accurately a description of this
Bill ; and taking it, niutatis mutundis, it would answer for the
title of the Bill itself. " Why could they not divide Ireland
into districts, allot a clergyman to every place where there
was a sufficient number of Protestants, commute the tithes,
sell all the landed property of the Church, bring the whole of
the proceeds into one general fund, and pay the stipends
which were proved to bo necessary, out of it." The words to
which he referred were used by the Hon. Member trey
dieselt on the 22d of July, 1835. He ohjeeted to the power
being given to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests of
breakiiig up compositions, and this, too, for fourteen or fifteen
years to, came, Let them take the case of a benefice of
1,0001, a year, The moment this Bill-comes into etfl'et, the
income would be reduced by various deductions to 4501. 2s. 63.
a year. lay the destruction, too, of the perishes, it was to
be obierved, they removed all the landmarks of Protestant
establishments in Ireland, and every thing relating to that
establishment was left in inextricable confusion. There was
very little difference between his Noble Friend and the Noble
Lord as to the average amount of the income elergymen.
One put it' down as 2951 , Ana the other as 2981. a year.
Now, as to the Church of Scotland, he should observe, that
there were twenty livings of which the inc was aoo.
a year, ten of 6001., ten of 500/., mil's tlac incomes varied
from 150/. to 800/. The tleopurable Member for Middle.
sex roimittpcl that 3.091. was not too large an income
for tt clergyman who had duties to perform, In the
Church Temporalities Bill, his Noble Friend had drawn
the principle that below ,100/. a benefice should not be
taxed. But then there was upon this subject the ar-
gument used, that justice should be done to Ireland. This
was Et demand which was variously interpreted, at various pee
nods. At one time, it merely meant freedom of religious
worshiiL Justice to Ireland next called for the elective fran-
chise, then equality of civil sighta, then Reform ; and lastly,
" Jogtiee to Ireland‘i made a distinct -demand for the revenues
of the Nstablished Church.—( thins, hear, and cheers front
the Opposition Members.) It had been said that the rent-
-3halge would be a burden imposed on the Catholic population.
He had pressed his Noble Friend (Lord Morpeth) last session
for a ret urn that would summarily show the total amount of
acres in Ireland that would be subject to the composition, and
the number of Catholics and Protestants having the tlrst
estate of inheritance. But not having been able to procure
that return, he was obliged to 4rolle from the relative number
of clldualie and Protestant landlords, as they stood with roe
speet sane of the dioceses of Ireland—Kilmore. In this
diocese the itemiser of acres amounted to 357,000 ; and of
these there were only 6,400 acres of which Catholics had the
first estate of inheritance. The amount
this district was 8,0291, and of' this sum 7,9211. was paid by
Protestant testant landlords, and only 107/. of composition for
paid by Catholic
landlords.--( hear, hear.) Carrying that proportion, then,
over the whole of Ireland, the number of acres would be found
to Le 12,000,000, and only 201,680 of these were held hy
be
l Ca-
t4C
;1;j:
yl i :
el
landlords.e
pn
tird
ial o\ dl.
there..
was
se
svja
any
111gni:5 muwn
pt
nutol
4%fs
chc liiiPp
pail
sounds 9 i !b
3eit
Roman
and ile would
fallacy in it-, als.ay went the Ar.,
gunrt:t-tbat the Church was supported by Catheliea. It was
!14:::::'111.1'italltetdr:IYC:1;tyoti;:t4nts and
Iv protestant income.—(Op-
of tidies. Now that aplle-aws•
.1)91'1)11 il1,190:41).• Tile great grievance now complained of
theod ntoectehsesipt; payment
eren-t
moviag thatgrievance, bow could it be said that it was a ltvels
shin which imposed sin y, 9,n9, SP.entl.-.
Idth nati ‘‘?. embeT or Waterford,
~ chair t, , .
whom lie not `see in his place, ad imputed, tolsim the banat
peasantry
ragreedyicr e sausbit to t
Pletives. That Wm. Member stated t 4 110 ha

suipiciou that disappointed ambition had led him to pursue
the course which he had taken, and that if he were seated on
the opposite bench, he would have taken a diffesent course.
Now it did so happen that he had separated from his Hon.
Friends now on the Ministerial side of the House when they
were in the plenitude of their power, but he seated himself by
them on that (the Opposition) bench when they were out of
power. (Cheers, and cries of " Heart" from Mr. O'Connell.)
The HJII. and Learned Member for Kilkenny seemed to
doubt that assertion, or to think that it required qualification ;
but the Hon. Member should not forget that when the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamwerth sat on the 'Freaesry
bench he declined to sit with the Right 1-lon. Gentleman.— .
(Cheer: from all sides.) So much for the baseness of his
motives, and the disappointed ambition which had led him. to
take the course which be had done.—(Opposition cheers,)
He would bring under the notice of the House the opinion of
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Heine Department,
in 1833, when the 147th clause of the Church Temporalities
Act was under consideration. That clause, as the debate
then turned, first raised the question _whether the appro-
priation of some surplus should not be diverted from Pro-
testant uses to general State purposes ? NYitet, at that time,
were the sentiments of the Noble Lord the Secretary for
the Heine Department? These were his words---" I am
perfectly convinced that the discussion of this question must
bring on a convulsion in this country.—( Loud and con-
tinued cheers from the Opposition.) slf that 1-Tee
were
to enter into a contest with the
.1Ions: 0: -1,0
rds it"sdlild
for something worthscon+"" e
be
• —( Cheers continue .
would now r“-
He
....scuss the question, which might at a future and
'no distant day arise, which the Noble Lord then put to the
House ; but he would ask whether, upon the subject
now under debate—the application of the suppesed surplus of
50,000/.—the Noble Lord did not take a course by which lie
seemed to think in 1836 that convulsion which he declared in
1833 was a matter which could not be justified.—( Opposition
cheers.) If the House, said the Noble Lord, enter cn a
contest with the House of Lords, let it be for something worth
contending for. The present was but the shadow of a claim
to prosecute what would be risking the_peace and tranquillity
of the country for the sake of an abstract principle.----( Loud
cheers from the Opposition.) Although the House of Com-
mons was, doubtless, the stronger of the two branches of the
Legislature, yet he hoped they would use their power with
temper and- moderation.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
side.) There were some Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite
side whom the Noble Lord then proclaimed—he would not
do so—as having supported the clause of that Act, because if
it were carried, they hoped to have the Bill thrown out else-
where, an event which the Noble Lord thought they looked
forward to with no inconsiderable degree of satisfaction.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord proceeded—" He could
understand the arguments which had been used that night,
proceeding as they did from those who in discussions in that
House had paid but little regard to the general security
of property ; but for himself, he was of opinion that
the country could not stand a revolution once a-year.
(Vehement cheers from the Opposition.) Under the present
circumstances of the country, they were all bound to make
sacrifices to preserve the peace and tranquillity of the country
and the general security of property. Although others may be
for convulsion in Ireland I am for peace."—(Renewed Oppo-
sition cheers.) He recollected being struck by an observa-
tion which the Noble Lord ( Melbourne) used on one of the
last occasions on which he had addressed that House. It
was in 1826, in opposition to a motion for Parliamentary Re-
form, and the Noble Lord replied to a very able speech which
bad been delivered by the President of the Board of Control,
in which he argued that Parliament was the safeguard of the
Constitution ; and that if he thought Reform would have the
effect of changing the form of our Government, he should op-
pose it as much as any man. He well remembered Lord
Melbourne replied to this effect:—" All these disclaimers
are very good ; but my cx;:erience shows me that they are
not to be relied on ; for in politics it so happens that people
get what they don't want, and want what they do not
get."—( Hear, hear, bear, from the Opposition.) He
begged to direct the attention of the House to the
evience given before a Committee of the House of Com-
mons by Dr. M'Hale, as rewesenting the sentiments of the
Irish Catholic hierarchy, with respect to the Established
Church. Dr. M'Hale said that he had no doubt that honcl-,
would be paid, according to St. Paul, where honour w s due,
and tribute be given to those to whom tribute was ; imply-
ing by such language that as long as tithe e:as the law of the
land it would continue to be pai.- New let the House con.
trast these sentiments with a letter written by the same indi-
vidnal in 1834, in which he said " that after paying the land-
lord's rent, neither to parson, proctor, landlord's agent, or any
other individual shall I continue to pay a penny of tithe or any
other tax which shall go to the support of the greatest nuisance
in the civilized world."—(Cheers from the Opposition.) So
that whatever concession was made, there was no chance of a
cessation of agitation, because, according to Dr. M'Hale, it
could never cease until "-the greatest nuisance in the civilized
world was altogether abolished."---(Cheers.) The Church
might have a breach made in it ; it might be about to fall ;
but be for one, be the consequences what they might, would
declare when he was called upon to let the Establishment
crumble into dust, and the British Constitution which rested
on it, and which was mainly supported by it—he would, he
repeated, in the language of Lord Bolingbroke, declare that
when " truth and reason and the cause of liberty fall with it,
the men who are buried in the ruins are happier than those
who survive them."—( Opposition cheers.)
Mr. SHEIL—The Right Hon. Baronet has concluded a
speech in favour of religion arid of the Constitution by quoting
an Atheist and a Tory.—(Loud cheers.) He has indulged
in a dissertation upon property, which is to be lamented that
the Cumberland yeomen did not hear, in order that he may
henceforth correct his erroneous notions on that subject. Two
measures have been proposed ; the one by a Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland, who has won our confider ee, attachment
and respect; the other by A Noble Lord who was Secretary
for Ireland, and whose biography constitutes a calamitous por-
tion of the history of Ireland. The one proposes appropriation ;
the other, distribution. " Between which should we elect ? The
plan to which appropriation is an incident provides a sur-
plus ; the plan which has distribution in view leaves no
surplus to ho applied. It is evident that the latter is framed
so 49 to avoid'the creation of the surplus. But is there one ?
Let the statistics of the country be consulted. There arc six
hundred thousand Presbyterians, eight hundred and fifty
thousand Episcopal Protestants, and six millions six hundred
thousand Roman Catholics. . In one archdiocese there are
only forty thousand Protestants, and there are, one million
eight hundred thousand Roman Catholics. What more need
be stated in order to prove that a surplus exists, and that the
existing system cannot be maintained ? It has been suggested
by the Noble Lord that the inferior Proteateet Clergy are now
paid in a manner disproportioned to their merits and services;
for my part, wherever reel aerviees are to be performed, I am
not only willing, hut enxions that a clergyman should be ade-
quately tviwart.ted; but where there is no congregation I
do
deuire to see an useless ecclesiastic, no matter to what re-
ligion he may be attached. But when did the Noble Lord,
who now advocates new distribution, first bethink himself of
the poverty of the Protestant Clergy? When did he first
give way to these feelings of commisseration in favour of the
wretched curate and the family depending on him for sus-
tainment ?—( Hear, hear.) He never proposed any measure
for their relief until the demands of millions have urged this
great question to the issue to which it has edesneed. Ile says
that he never can or will consent to it. I never expected,
indeed, that he would divest himself of the fatal pertinacity
which characterises him, and which has been the source of so
much calamity to the Country that 'eel .so long abandoned to
his conical,The mars who °mild without remorse witness
the fatal results of hti-relaerable legislation must indeed be in-
capable of penitence i but he is mistaken in supposing that
his colieeet Is necessary to the achievement of this great naF%-
SW, Does the Noble Lord recollect by what expedient the
1-Cabinet of which he was a Member carried the Reform Bill?
and if that measure was accomplished, its results, its inevitable
results, of which this is one, will by the same instrumentality
be achieved. There are a class of questions which cannot
trograde, which cannot continue stationary, and which roust
needs go on. Of this character wag the Slave question, the
Catholic question, the Reform question. Of this class is that
which the Irish millions, returning to this House a vast majo-
rity of the representatives of ??eland, never will relinquish. In
1824, this question Vo.f, first pressed.to a division by the Mem-
! her fee Middlesex. In the minority the names of Hobhouse,
of Rico, and of Russell are to be found. .They saw even then
that the concession of this right to Ireland was indispensable
for her peace. The Member for Cumberland has quoted a
speech of the Secretary for the Home Department in 1833,
to prove that he was opposed to a new appropriation ; but
that speech referred to the 147th clause, and to a contin-
gent and improbable surplus in the Church Temporalities
Bill, and not to a surplus, definite, substantial, palpable, like
that which' will result from the contemplated measure. It
may be said that the Noble Lord, as well as the Secretary for
the Home Department, has been consistent. 116 has been in-
deed, obstinate in his adherence to a detail, but his general po-
licy has with that detail been most incongruous. The instant
the Reform of the Parliament was proposed in England, the
Reform of the Church was with the same loud voice impera-
tively required in Ireland. The excitement which arose in
one country on the question by which he was most deeply
interested, soon extended itselt to the other, on the grievance
by which it was most sensibly and painfully affected. Down,
cried England, with nomination in Parliament; down, cried
Ireland, with sinecurism in the Church ;—perish Gatton and
Old Sarum, cried the people of this country ;—perish the
abuses, answered the Irish millions, which nothing; but Old
Sarum and Gattan could maintain. How, indeed, was it
possible that the popular agitation which pervaded one
country, should not have been communicated to the other?
How could Ireland remain in apathetic contemplation of the
greet scenes which were passing in this country? Yet the
Noble Lord, who himself administered to the provocation of
the popular passions in England, aqd the Right Hon. Baronet
conceived that they could play the Gracchi or referen of the
.Parliament, and complain of sedition, when Ireland demanded
in the same right the reform of the Church. At the opening
of the session in 1834, a moan; important disclosure took place.
It was proved that the Marquis of Anglesea had, so far back
as 1814, written a dispatch to the Cabinet, insisting on appro-
priation, as indispensable for the settlement of Ireland ; and
thus, while the Irish Secretary was exclaiming against all con-
cession, that distinguished Nobleman was bearing to the ne-
cesisity of this great measure his incalculably important attes-
tation the question thus every day gained ground. The
Member for St. Alban's at length gave his celehraeo no-
tice. The matter was brought to issue leeteseen the par-
ties in the Cabinet, as it is at +Jeie moment between the
two branches of the Leeieletere, and the celebrated Church
Commission `,eftkali."' The Noble Lord perceived alit
ti.;e people were counted, the days of ecclesiastical abuse
would I,)p nu,mberoel. He saw that appropriation was ill-
1 . v...ed thatUstist lead to it, and he resiese
fel'c leerCl grey bithied him, What inference
dvilacc.o if khq N 44144 loni. resk

,s thence to
°dation was founded