The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-16 00:00:00

UMPERIAL PARLIA3IENT.

HOUSE OF L RD S, AUGUST IS.
The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Church
Buildings Act Amendment Bill, Ecclesiastical Appointment
Suspension Bill, and the Tithes (Ire' old) Bill.
FOREIGN TRADE.
Lord LYNDHURST stated that he had a petition from
the Chamber of Commerce of Bristol to the same effect as the
one he had presented from Ghls r,)vr ye:€terday ; by some acci-
dent, however, he had Leglectedto bring it with him, but it
was !:is intention to prcrent it to-morrow. He was in hope 9,
by the next session, he should have a great many more peti-
tions of a similar description.
Mr. Bernal and others from the Commons brought up the
Canda Indemnity Bill.
THE CORNWALL- TIN DUTIES BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE moved the third readieg of
this Bill.

Lordd—LYNDHURST said that their Lordships were aware
of the nature of this property as regarded the interests of the
unborn Duke of Cornwall, and the would find that Parlia-
ment had always been 'extremely cautious of interfering at all

with the management of property so circumstanced ; bat not.,.
only had Parliament exhibited that scrupulous caution, but
their late Majesties, George IV. and William IV., actually s.e.
fused to assent to any Bill of this sort; and he must, the.V.e.
fore, say that he extremely regretted that the Noble Viscount
should have recommended such a Bill in the first year of the
reign of a Sovereign only nineteen years of age, unr squinted
with business, and a female. They had heard the other night
from a Noble Earl who was not now in his place (Wicklow)
that this Bill had been opposed only by an Hon. Member of
the other House with a sort of triple name; that they had
been told, ad verecundiani as it were, as though thegought to
be astiarrod of such company. Now he had no objection to
being in that Hon. Mt rnbeea company, when, as on this sub-
j,et. lie thought his reasons ec_rent. This Bill was not of a
tendency beneficial to the tin 'mines of Cornwall. and, as he
was informed, the leading proprietors of those mines were PP-
posed to it. But the smelters were the persons who had lone
endeavoured to procure a measure of .tl.is sort, and who would
alone be benefited by it. He begged to )(Dove that this Bill be
read a third time that day three months.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that lie was perfectly aware
of the nature of this property, and he should certainly not
, have advised the introduction of any such Bill un:ess e
not only of the Crown, but of any future Luke. cf
compensation was given to the Crow:,
theo nvßeniileln would
andu pe,Ate to do away with the present ie_
tChnoren tehaa lti,amp;_:2ad been well_ secured and guarded; at the san e
system of collecting that revenut,
convenient
ovexatiotz,
He was sensible of the e,:qiemey of the subject; but he
thought it was carrying that delicacy rather too far to say-
that they should not remove and reform the acknowledged
evils of that system until a Duke of Cornwall, yet unborn,
should be of age to give his consent to the measure. For these
reasons he trusted that their Lordships would give a third read-
ing to this Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON would urge upott their
Lorts;.:ios the necessity of caution upon the question, in ar-
n '
iv"l vvo
Ii
et. ich they should look carefully after the interests of
loose
not in a position to see themselves that their
rights and prop...
40s were not infringed. For his own part he
cn
r l;tli w:
was satisfied that Oke two last Sovereigns under whom he
served would never cek?‘ nt to a measure of this description.
..
Before they adopted
the they should see that it would in-
flict no injury upon the heir' :2 the
property;
late period of the sessionall
and, at
events, that they should net at fl'h:
c
proceed with the Bill without fuller th. ormation.
The. Marquis of LANSDOWNE supp,:rted the Bill as a
measure calculated to place the revenues e. the Duchy of
Cornwall on a more secure footing, and render tn..
collection
of them less difficult. He hoped their Lordships Wotild not
refuse to pass the measure.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appcsared—
Contents
.27
Non-contenzs
Majority for the third reading —l
The Bill was then read a third time and their Lordships
adjourned.

110 II SE OF COMMONS. AUGUST 15.
NEW WRIT.
Oa the motion of Mr. J. E. STANLEY, a New Writ for
t'ie borough of Great Yarmouth was ordered in the room of
Mr. Willshere, who has acceptKl the Chiltern Hundreds.
Mr. CAMPI3ELL appeared at 61. Bar, and handed in copies
of Correspondence on the subject of Negro Slavery.
On. the motion of Captain ALS AGE R, :.he St. Saviour's
Grammar School Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. AG LIO NB Y (in the absence, he said, of Mr. Hume,.
who is detained by illness in the country), presented a peti-
,. The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of
Shaftesbury, and the Earl of Albemarle.

CANADA BILL.
Mr. HAWES rose merely to say one word. He certainly
did no: impute to the Hon. Member any breach of confidence,
but lie hat: alluded to what he considered the bad taste of using
'
quotations of ;,:tters, without being signed or in any other way
autheLticated, in ,:.hat House, and retained the same opinion
still. He had had an 1)13 ortunity of seeing some of the first
firms in the ci!y of Lon.do,, that day and he was happy to say
c:very word of what had fah,
In from him as to the state
of Lower Canada was fully borne out.—(Cheers.) There
was but one opinion amongst the whole of the mer-
chants engaged in that trade as to, the policy of
Lord Durham—they thought it was the' wisest that
could have been pursued—and they thought any ,Interference
with the ordinances would hazard a second insurreCtkm•—
( Cheers.) Ile ( Mr. H.) was sorry that the head o: the
Government had imt shown as much spirit as the Noble Lc/1.:3.
the Leader in that House.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had been
quite irregular in his allusions to what he hall seen in the
Newspapers ; therefore he would pass that by. As to his
other question, he (Lord John Russell) must decline to give
any answer.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he also was called
upon to say a word, and be must say, that the report in the
Newspapers, as stated by the lion. Member, was perfectly
correct.

Dr. LUSH LNG TON said, before the Bill passed, he was
anxi:sus to express his sentiments upon it. If its fate depended
upon his vote, it would never pass at Loud cheers.)
tie had attended most carefully to the debates which had
been Lai upon it, ani lie was not at all satisfied that there bad
been any violation of the law. He had heard some of the, de-
bates in another place, and last night he had listened most
attentively to the speech of the Hoc, and Learned Member
for Exeter, and he could not but remark that he spoke witfr
extreme caution ; he carefully avoided giving expression to
any opinion by which he might be bound hereafter,
a hatever course he might be called upon to Mite.,
He did not lay down in what particular this measure was a
violation of the law. If there were any man in that House (and
he was speaking in the presence of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman) who, if be had formed a clear and decided
opinion that this measure was a violation of the laws of
the land, would and could have stated it.e
in terms impossible to be misunderstood—that man was the
Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter. The Hon. and
Learned Member's hesitation made hint doubt—his doubt
comemade
to a
him ponderconeluisaonnduepoonnsisduech a
consider befdoirsecus fie would venture to
there or elsewhere, that there had been a violation
sn as he had heard
of the law.
But when he considered the discordant opinions tieat had been
expressed—when he found the Hon. Baronet for Tejenmouth
( Sir Charles Grey), perfectly conversant with the ;:vt.',lo of
the affairs of Canada, having the Acts of Parliament as his
fingers' ends, quoting chapter and verse, pronouncing legal
that which the Bill eronounced to be illegal, and de-
claring in his opinion the power of transportation to Ber-
mud t did exist—then he wanted to know whether it
was not his duty to hesitete before he pronounced a clear
and decided opinion. —( Hear, hear, hear.) Then, when
he looked to the other part of the question relating to
persons not in custody, there was the same discrepancy of
opinion. But suppose he did not entertain a doubt upon the
subject, was he therefore to vote for a Bill of Indemnity?
Never—never. He could well remember the day and the hoar
when the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, and there was
ira Bill of Indemnity then. lie deemed Bills of Indemnity
then, and he deemed them now (and in this he agreed with
the Learned Lord Chief Justice), as a siolation of the liber-
ties and the rights of the pecple.—( Loud cheers, and
cries of " Hear, hear.") If a man suffered from a violation
of the law he ought to have his remedy. Had he forgotten
the day when men who wished to be put on their trial were
incarcerated from year to year, and afterwards, when
the suspensinn of the Habeas Corpus Act was at an
end, were deprived of the right of asserting their innocence.
and of being hide= fled for the loss to which they had
been wickedly subjected ? Never would he depart from those
prinsiph s. Either would behave it said that action upon ac-
tion hal been teought against all concerned, whatever might • -
have been the amount of the loss ; and if that loss had been
incurred fur the general safety and security of the people, it
was the duty of the people to pay the amount.—( Hear, hears )-
lie ( Dr. Lushingtorr) agreed with his Learned Friend, the'',-
Attorney- Geneial, that in this case it was the mere transient
image of a loss; and no jury, looking to the eirc'orri-
tariccs of the case, would slew it otherwise than an"act
of mercy to the parties. —(llem-. hear.) One word aise':
as to Earl Durham. If he had erred in his apprehensiona
of the law, whose fault was that? If Earl Durham had So'
clear notion of the law, nho ought to have ? The Lord Chief-
Justice of England ? the Lord High Chancellor? a Noble
and Learned ex-Chancellor? the Learned Gentleman, the
Member for Exeter (Sir W. Follett) ? or the Hon. Bart.,
the Member for Teignmouth ( Sir C. Grey)? Amidst the
conflicting opinions of all the legal authorities, was Lord Dur-
ham to be blarnsd fur ignorance of the law ? Why, if he had
done to Canada with a legal edviser, he would trot have
been able to steer his way,— and Iris ignorance of the law was
shared by the great body of law) ers in this country.—( Hear,
hear, and laughter. ) Then as to the unconstitutionality of'
their proceedings. lie ( Dr. L.) approved not of the form of'
these orclirrances. But he looked to their essence,—their sub-
stance ; he knew nothing of the circumstances which rendered
them necessary; he believed, howsver, that Lord Durham had
not exercised his power without strong ground. lie
knew Lord Durham had great talents, rnd that (though
doehtless he had his faults) he possessed high courage,
and tire nicest sense of honour. This he (Dr. Lushington)
hoped, that all the attempts which were made to discredit and
discomfort Lord Durham in his Government—( Hear, hear)—
to deprive him of moral influence—to curtail his utility,
and weaken his poeers—that he would rise supe-
tior to all the provocations lie had to encounter from
Ir;s enemies, and disappoint them of that which, to them
a victory, would he to the empire a misfortune, disabling him
inert giving to the distracted province over which he ruled,
that peke and traneuillity which his high character and known
love of liberty were so well calculated to secure.—(Cheers.)
(Dr L.) could understand that in a Colony just emerging
from rebellion, the ordinary course ofjuAtie.e being interrupted_
when it would be impossible to adhere to the forms of justice
without violamtihrgeiftuhle
jkuestiLord Durham's
justified.—( Hear.)
might,fors
The last observation he had to make wasthia, that his jealousy
was excited when he saw a Government of any kind first et-
croenasiiidteramtioenas€,urbese
law would allow, and then
utmost extent the severity of the
erting the power, which very properly belonged to it, to
thetlier exceeding the power of the law, or calling fur further
pewees to increase that severity. But when he saw that the
'Earl of Durham had not, to his knowledge or belief, shed a
single drop of blood—when he saw a reasonable prospect
that the pacification of that country would be effected .without
e one single drop of human bloood—(Cheers)
ashen he
i ht that that consideration surpassed all
ot‘l.tilse'eesrhecodiidsiiThercautgions, both for securing the peace and hap -
of the province, and preventing scenes of indignation and re.
vettgc, which would tend hereafter to disturb the peace of the
country--then he trusted that the Earl of Durham, rising
superior to all those impediments, and clotied with his native
integrity—PA- there did not exist a more honest, -etisigtgaor-

ward man in the kingdom than the Earl of Dui
(Ciricers)--then he trusted that the Noble Earl would still I
he tire saviour and protector of Canada.—(Cheers,)
Mr. SANFORD said that as it dirt not appear likely
that any division would take plate, he could not give
what might appear a tacit acquiescence on this °cm--
'ion. From all tlie discussions that bad taken place
oi both sides of ,the Hiaise, they were called on to pro-
nounce a judgment on the acts of the Earl of Durham, in a
wanner which he should regret. When he looked at the
=tanner in which these ordinances had been promulgated, and
at the different opinions given by the highest legal authorities.
he felt eallcd upon to give his judgment in favour of the opi-
nion given by the law officers of the Crown. That opinion
was that the ordinances were illegal, so far as related to the
persons transported to Bermuda.—( Hear, hear.) If that was
the only illegal portion of the ordinances he could n•.t form a
judgment that the House ought to declare the ordinances to

ilitgal with reeard to that alone, because, if those persons
wh., Lad been sent to Bermuda. and aho had thrown them-
eelvee upon the mercy of the Crown, and so far acknowleged
-their geilt—if the only illegal part of the ordinances was with
regard to these persons, how was the House to form a judg-
ment that some negotiations had not taken place with those
individual:, and that what the House was now determining
to be an illegal act, had been done entirely with their
sanction, and been considered by them an act of tie-
mency ? This appeared to him to be one of the 'hardest
measures ever inflicted on a public officer. Here was a
Nobleman who had had forced upon him alreost an ungracious
and laborious duty.—( Hear. hear.) It had been thought
necessary, in consequence of the conduct of persons in the
colony, to suspend the Conseitution, and to invest the Noble-
man sent out with dictatorial powers. The very first exercise
of that power bad been carp* d at at home ; and the Legi:da-
ture which conferred those powers turned round upon him,
and charged Lim Kith acting illegally. There never was a
harder case, because he was satisfied that Lord Durham had done
his best for the benefit of the colony. For these reasons he
would give the Bill hisstrongest and most decided reprobation.
Ne man had ever been treated with so much harshness and
injustice as the Earl of Durham.—( Hear, hear.) Fled there
been a :division, he should certainly have gieta his vote
against the measure, because it appeared to him to be impo.
lisle, unjust, unnecessary, and fraught -with the most mis-
chievous consequences. He was as much opposed as any one
to acts of illegality, hut he thou,* the present one of the
most arbitrary are'. unfair proceedings ever adopted by a Go-
vernment.—( Hear, hear.)
Viscount EBR.ING.I'ON concurred in every word that had
fallen from the Hen. and Learned Member for the Tower
Eamlets, relat've to the conduct and eharacter of the Earl of
Durham. and for that reason he never gave a vote with more
pain than that he should be obliged to give in favour of the
present Bill. Although he was willing to make any
allowance for the position in which the Noble Earl
'was placed, still under all the circumstances he felt
bound to give -his assent to the Bill.—( Hear, hear.)
Considering the situation of the whole question, and the manly
and straightforword manner in which his Noble Friend had
tepported Lord Durham, he could not refuse his assent to the
Bill, though he was most anxious to do so. He trusted there
would be no division, as it would tend much to weaken the
hands of Lord Durham and the Government, if the House
were not unanimous upon the Bill.
Sir E. CODRINGTON—If he had not formed an opi-
nion before the speech of the Learned Member for the Tower
Hamlets, he would have. been convinced that the Bill should
not pass. If any nee would move the rejection of the Bill
be would cheerfeilly second the motion.
Lord J. R rJSSELL hoped his Gallant Friend would give
Ids vote t.e, favour of the Bill. His own opinion was that it
would have been infinitely better to have reserved the whole
sufeject until they were better informed of all its details.—
Cheers.) He did not think that it was doing justice to Lord
Durham, to bring it on at the time it had been forced under
the consideration of the Parliament.—(Cheers.) But after
the Bill had been read a second time in the House of Lorde,
which was considered a higher authority on such matters
than the House of Commons, he felt some hesitation in
opposing it, as part of the ordinances were illegal.
He thought after what had passed it would be much worse for
Lord Durham and for those who ected under this ordinance if
_ _

this Bill were now rejected tbsen if they should proceed to pass it
into a law. One part of tlee ordinance was stated by all parties
to go beyond the authority that Lord Durham possessed, and
if it should ge forth to Canada that the chief lawyers
of this country were of opinion it was illegal, and
no steps lead been taken to remedy it, the consequences
might he most mischievous. Much as he lamented the
agitation of this question, and much as he lamented the
introduction of the Bill, yet he had formed a strong
-opinion which nothing had shaken, that the Bill having come
down to the House, the best course which could be
adopted, was for all parties to consent to pass the
Bill. At the same time, he thought it was a
premature expression of opinion on the part of Parliament.—
( Hear, hear.) He hoped therefore that they would allow the
Bill to pass in silence and not reject it.
Mr. AG LIONBY said that those who were not connected
with either of the two great parties were placed in an
awkward dilemma, because while the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Home Department desired his friends and
those near him to support the Bill, every argument
the Noble Lord used was an argument that would induce
them to vote against it. The Noble Lord bad said, and be
(Mr. Aglionby) thought that it was rather a slip of the
tongue—and was not- intended by him as an argument—
that the House of Lords was more fit to deal with a question
of this nature then the House of Commons. Now he differed
from the Noble Lord in that respect.—( Hear, hear.)
The House of Commons was equally fit, if not more fit
to deal with a Bill of Indemnity than the other House.
Then the Noble Lord had said there were great doubts
entertained by the most eminent lawyers of the day, re-
specting the validity of the proceedings of Lord Durham
The ordinance regarding Bermuda had been declared by the
law officers of the Crown to be illegal ; but the Learned
Member for Teignmouth (Sir Charles Grey) had expressed
a contrary opinion. And in this situation, with these different
legal opinions, was a Bill to be passed, in this hasty and hurried
manner, censuring Lord Durham, when the House had no means
of forming an opinion as to the conduct of that Noble Lord.
A Bill of Indemnity was generally unconstitutional.—( Hear.)
It never should be passed certainly but in a case of emergency.
It ought not to be passed but on the solicitations of the
parties themselves.—( Hear.) Now, who called for this Bill ?
As to Earl Durham, he (Mr. Aglionby) believed that high-
spirited Nobleman would be more disgusted with the Bill, now
that it included the indemnity, than if it did not. On all these
grounds he (Mr. Aglionby) thought it would be better to
throw out the Bill. He would not embarrass the Government
by dividing the House against it. He would content himself
with protesting against it.—( Hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY would not give his vote in support
of the Bill if he thought it implied the slightest charge of cri-
minal conduct against Lord Durham. He thought,lhowever,
the opinions so universally expressed by that House and the
entire debate of the evening would relieve Lord Durham from
any charge of that nature.—( Cheers.) The utmost extent of
the illegality that could be charged was, that Lord Durham,
in the exercise of his legislative functions, had overlooked the
territorial limits of Lower Canada, and on that narrow ground
alone could any excess of authority be alleged against him?
One point appeared to have been lost sight of in speaking of
the conduct of Lord Durham, viz., that there mere three
classes of persons dealt with by that ordinance, and two classes
had been brought under consideration—the third class only
and by far the moft numerous one—viz., those to whom a com-
plete indemnity and amnesty had been given by Lord Durham's
ordinahces, had been in a great measure overlooked. Of
nearly 300 persons in confinement, all but eight had been re-
leased, and 15 had been banished from the province under pain
of death ; and yet this was the act which had been charac-
terised as one of undue aeserity.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL here stated that he had
been to a-ik a conference with the Lords on the Coot of Ses-
sion ( Scotland) Bill, and that they had appointed it to take
place in Committee-rocm No. 5. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman and several of the Members then left the House.
On their return the Attorney-General said they had delivered
their reasons for disas.treciets to the amendments, and left the
Bill and the amend:notes will their Lor 'ships.
Mr. E A STH OPE deprec esil the paltry legislation cn the
subject of Canada, which might be most mischievous in its
results. He believed the country felt one strong opinion of
reprobation as to its oiigin, and, however calamitous the re-
sults might be there would be no difficulty in tracing them to
their source. He was sorry that there should be any difficulty
in spurning this wretched measure. He was bound to defer
t.) the opinions which had been cxpre sed, and as any opposi-
tion to it might be productive of great embarrassment, he
should, most reluctantly, wave the opposition which lie had
intended to give to the further progress of the Bill. He
should, however, be negligent of his duty if he did not
enter, his: protest against it. Whatever evil conse-
quences might result from this measure, they were chargeable
on the quarter in which the Bill originated.---( Hear, hear.)
He had no apprehension that Lord Durham would, iu conse-
quence of this, lose sight of the cause of his country, of the
cause of humanity, end of the cause of good government. He
believed that the Noble Lord would fully understand his po-
si•ion and pursue his course, notwithstanding, the gross in-
sult and sarcasm which had been thrown upon him. If he
could expect any favourable result from moving that the Bill
be read a third time that day three months, he would have
lone so ; but he would refrain from it, as he was well a..vare
that it would he useless.
Mr. G ROTE ts ished to say a few words before the 801
finally left the 11,ine, because he was one of those fsw oho
bad voted against the Bill out of which the whole chl.,trima hat
:arisen. and he vile most happy that upon that occason he had
not allowed hiseself to be seduced from his duty by any con-
sideration of the character of the Noble Earl ; and if his acts
deserved the character given of them by the most learned men
of the kingdom, it was a m .st improper time to indulge hi
such eulogies linen Lim ss he had heard these twe
the ATTORNEY-GENERAL appeared
at the liar' and
stated that the Lords had aereed to a conference
gistration of Voters Bill.
The A`torney.. G on the Re-
eneral, thethc Salici-
tor- General and others then left the House to manage
con-
ference on the part oF the Commons.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL reported that the Mena.
gees for the Commons had left the Bill, with their tcasoes for
disagreeing to the Lords' amendments, with the Managers fur
their Lordships.
Colonel SIBTHORP then addressed the House. The
situation of Earl Durham, he said, was most unfortunate, and
exemplified the old adage between two stools one fell to the
gteitinct.4-A :le..uehn) The Ministry were endeavouring to
• 5huit,4441401.-01itig 'storm, which would fall upon their heads
.1f Parßeeneeont continued to sit a few weeks longer, and there-
-fore it was that this Bill was pressed forward with such haste.
• ; M.r..F;NCH said be-should move that this Bill be read a
salthircl time thisdey week ; and in his opinion it was absolutely