The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 16, 1838.

jstablishrnent and the very semblance of Church rights. Why was it
that while the rights of the lay impropriators were preserved in
manse and in effect, everything was abolished which could in any way
connect the Church with property in the land ? The Noble Lora. bppo-
said that the Established Churches of England and irelane were.
matte io
intimately connected that one could not be 7;eseened ve-ithotet
weakening the other—to which he (Mr. Litton) eseauld add, that you
could not destroy one without ruining the othee. If he were in the habit
of supporting Ministers upon all other quest:Anse-if he approved of:. 'their
general policy—which he did not--he fill would feel himself corn.
polled, as a Protestant geetleman, to oppose those resolutions, in consi-
deration of the destructive effect which they must have upon
the Protestant Church in England as wed as in Ireland.—(Hear.)
The two F.stablittenents were inseparably connected, and the existence
one involved else existence of the ether.—(Hear.) Who he asked,
bad called far those resolutions? Who had cheered Ministers on in
proposing them ? Why, without meaning any personal offence, he
might se.y that man who was at the head of the anti-tithe party, the man
who had backed the resistance that had been exhibited throughout Ire-
land to the payment of tithes.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had
taunter i the clergy with valuing the peace of Ireland at 15
per cent, but he Mr. (Mr. Lltton) denied that the Irish
clergy were grasping men, that they were men who would
ex act the feel or nearly the full penalty of their bond even though
ie might occasion the effusion of blood. This was a foul ca-
lumny on the Irish clergy who, on the contrary, were only distin.
guished by their benevolent liberality—by the Christian charity which
they extended to all classes of the poor around them, without regard to
sect or party.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the end of his speech
teemed to say that this contest ought to have taken place on the Church
question itself, and not on that relating to Church leases. When it
occurred was very immaterial. Possibly there might be a small majority
In favour of the resolutions ; but, if so, of whom would that majority
be made up? leihy, it would be made up, as the Noble Lord well
knew, of men who had no right to interfere on such a subject, because
they were the avowed enemies of the Church. If the Church Establish-
ment should fall by such merits, the Government would have to answer
for it to the Protestant people of both countries ; but whatever might
be the result of the present discussion all he hoped was that truth would
ultimately prevail.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LASCELLES said he was one of those who at the conclusion of
the last Session of Parliament had looked forward with satisfactisn to the
prospect of some amicable arrangement of this question. He should
indeed be sorry that any vote which he was about to give in this preli-
minary stage should be supposed to preclude the most full and dialing-
sionate consideration of the entire subject. He bad a great disinclina-
tion that their party battles should be fought on such questions, and it
was for this reason that he was the more ready to support the amend-
ment, and so far remove an obstacle to the amicable settlement of this
question. In voting for the amendment, he did not see on what
grounds it could be said that he was thereby voting for a re-enactment
of the penal code, or for any harsh measures towards Ireland.---(Hear.)
The question was, whether or no the appropriation principle should be
maintained. To that principle he was decidedly opposed, and if he had
been in the last Parliament he should have voted against it. He thought
it at that time unadviseable mid objectionable, and he was of the same
opinion still.—(Hear, hear.) It was his intention now to vote for the
rescinding of that resoluemn, and he would give that vote in the hope of
doing away with the difficulties that stood in the way of an amicable
arrangement of the question. Whether or not it was possible for the
Government to accede to the rescinding of that resolution was no con-
cern of his, and perhaps it was too much to expect that they would dome
Mr. REDDINGTON contended that the Hon. and Learned Member
for Coleraine, who had that evening addressed the House, had misrepre-
sented the resolutions of the Noble Lord. The Hon. Member, in the
course of his speech, had stated that tithes were paid in the province of
Ulster, but this was no more than was to be expected, for the people and
the gentry of Ulster were for the most part Protestant, and he thought
that the Protestant gentry ought to pay for the support of their own
Clergy. It was stated by the Hon. Member that the Clergy of Ireland
were opposed to the settlement ef the question proposed by the Noble
Lord, bet certainly all the Protestant Clergy were not opposed to that
settlement. A letter had lately been published by the Archdeacon of
the diocese of Cloyne in which that Rev. Clergyman stated that the tell.
Lions that had been presented against the resolutions of the Noble
Lord did not express the general opinion of the Clergy of Ireland. He
(Mr. Reddington) had hoped that this year some settlement of this ques-
tion would have taken place. He did not think that it ought to be
treated as a party question. When, some years ago, a motion had been
made for the repeal of the Union it was met by the Right Hon. Gentle.
man below him with a resolution which recorded the promise of the
British Parliament to do justice to Ireland. He thought, if the Hon.
Baronet succeeded in carying his amendment and rescinding the reso-
lution of 1R:35, he ought to go farther, and move that the other resolu-
tion to which he adverted should also be rescinded. He might then
send the Irish Members back to their constituents, to tell them that no
justice was to be expected for Ireland from a British Parliament. With
respect to Church property he (Mr Ileddington) had his opinion—
whether tithes or revenue, it made no difference, was raised by tax for
civil or religious exigences, when those exigencies ceased Parliament
had a right to deal with either, and apply the amount to measures of
public utility. There was scarcely a country in Europe in which the
appropriation of Church property had cot already taken place, with the
exc..ption of Spain. It had taken place in Russia, in Austria, and even
since 1,15 a great quantity of ecclesiastical property heel been cones_
eared in the Papal dominions. In fact, he might say that this was the
only country in Europe in which it was held that Church property was
inviolalle. The time was when the Catholic Chu:ce vies as great end
powerful in this country as the Protestant Church was now. Its Pre-
lates sat in Parliament amongst the nobles of the land, their equals in
rank, and the participators of their power. But a discontented monarch
change.l the state of things, and those whom that Church thought to be
her firmest friends wr re the first to desert her in the hour of ariversity.
This warning ought not to be lost at the rresent day. With respect to
the resolution which it was proposed to rescind, it was well known that
her Majesty's Ministers could not consent to that proposition. He
strongly condemned any attempt to place ob,tacles in the way of settling
the present question. He thought the measures proposed by the Go-
vernment were calcnla:ed to secure peace in Ireland, and to allay the
animosities that prevailed respecting this question. Under these car.
curt:stances he should give his earnest suppc,rt to the motion of the Noble
Lord.

Mr TOWNLEY was anxious foe the settlement of this question. Ile
thought, however, that some party feeling was mixed up with the course
taken on the present occasioe, and that the obioct of the amendment was
to fix a stigma on the present Government, He did not see in the reso-
lutions to be proposed by the Noble Lord anything involving the prin.
ciple of apprepriat'em, to which many lion. Gentlemen were epp,sed
Ile thought the eettlement of the question might fairly rest with the
present Goveirenent, ani that no difficulties ougi.t unnecessarhy to he
thrown in t.):,eir way. He would vete ageinst the amendment.
Mr. YeATNG add that it appeared to him at the present time most
extraoreinary, that any Minister in this country should proprose
the
apptr,priation of any portion of the revenues of the Church, when :t
AY? a known that the Church had net suffici nt for her own wants. Let
them look to the state of the metropolis, where it was stated, on the
au, lior;ty (we believe) of the report of a Committee, that a hundrwl
new churches would be necessary to give sufficient religious acconnno.
dation to the people. Let them look to the state of the manufacturing
towns with resrect to religious accommodation. Let them look to
Glasgow, where there was an admitted deficiency of the means of re
ligious instruction. If there had been the means of having clergymen
in sufficient numbers to ruppiy the want of religious instruction, the
good effects would his found in the Improved bharacter and better
morale of the people. With regard to the principle of appro-
pr;ation what ho meant to say was this—he did not mean to
undervalue the blessings of education, but he thought that if
any sin-lens could be found In the revenues of the Church for the
purposes of education, that cducidion should be moral and religious, ac.
cording to the doctrines of the Established Church.—(Hear.) Let
them give the people what they would, they ini.,ht depend upon it
that such an education formed the only true means of national improve.
meat. The Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland alnrrned that the re-
venues of the Irish church were dispropoitioned to the spiritual wants
of her fleck ; but the Noble Lard the Secretary for the Home Depart.
mein observed that, altheugli the proportion of Protestants in Ireland
was small as compared tx,.'.n the Borneo Catholics, yet that the revenues
of the Church could not he coesidered disproportionrd. His (Mr.
Yoireg's) opinion e.'as that the revenues were barely sufficient—that no
serplue could 110 found—and that in talking cf it, gentlemen were
merely delinßeig their Roman Catholic su:.poiters. He yielded to no
man in for the interests of his Romer) Catholc felt:iv-countrymen,
but he teFeved thet those interests would be best advanced by the adop-
tion of a line of policy marked out by the Right Hon. Baroriet the
Member for Tamworth In 1834. lie would vote for rem inding the re-
solutions of I33s.—(Hear.)
Mr. BENETT had given the present subject great and painful consi-
deration. He had endeavoured to make himself master of every detail,
and he trusted the House would give him credit for coming to its dis-
cussion in perfect fairness of spirit and independence of mind—(He
hear)—and yet, holding these opinions, he did not see any reason for
support.ng the present motion. He thought the amendment was pro.
posed for mere party purposes.—(" No, no," from the Conservative
benches.) He had always been opposed to motions which had their
origin In party feeling, and, whether the Government was Wh:g or Tory,
he would always oppose such motions.—(Plear, hear.) He quite agreed
with the Hon. Baronet (the Member for North Devonshire) in opposing
the amopr,..eion of the property of the Church to the purposes of the
State; but what he contended was that the present motion was made not
from any solicitude for the welfare of the Church, but merely as affording
an oppxtunity fora trial of party strength.—(" Hear, hear," and expres-
sions of dissent from the Conservative benches.) He wished it to be
understood that, in the rote he was about to give, he did not shrink
from his former opinion; but lie had read the present resolutions, and
he could not find in them a vestige of the appropriation principle.—
(Hear, hear.) They were not very clear, he must admit—(Hear, hear,
and a laugh)—but with the assistance of the speeches which he had
heard he had been able to make them out, and he was convinced that
the appropriation clause was not to be found in them. As a friend of
Ireland and the British empire, he considered it most important that
this question should be settled at once and for ever. He thought the re-
solutions now before the House would lead to a settlement; but what
did he perceive? A firebrand was now about to be thrown among them,
by proposing to rescind an obsolete resolution, binding on no one, and
which he for one had almost forgotten.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Lord gANDON could not sit silent under the imputation put for.
ward by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The Hon. Mem-
ber said that this motion had bean brought forward merely as a trial of
party strength, and that its purpose was to repeal an obsolete resolution.
But how could a resolution be considered obsolete which was only three
years old altogether—(Hear, hear)—and which, until this year, had
formed the boast of Gentlemen on the other side of the House in ad-
dressing their constituents ? This was the first year in which the prin-
ciple was not avowed. A resolution which came from a party who pro.
claimed the Church of England an abomination, and who were sworn to
its destruction, was it surprising that they should look on it with
jealousy ? What was the meaning of the resolution ? Why it
merely kept up the shadow of appropriation. It was—" That it is
the opinion of this Committee that the rent charges for Eccle-
siastical tithe should be appropriated by law to certain local charges
now defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund, and to education, the
surplus to form part of the Consolidated Fund." Here they saw
still the desire to delude the people of Ireland into the idea that
they were yet dealing with a surplus of ecclesiastical property. He
could not look on this principle as being so obsolete as gentlemen on the
other side would represent It. What gentleman on the other side
would venture in Ireland boldly to avow that it had become obsolete ?
(Hear, hear.) They were taunted with proposing this amendment idly
—with killing Cock Robins ; but they were not Cock Robins that were
attacked ; a great mass of property was concerned, and it was no
light matter when it was assailed by a vast population for a Minister
of the Crown to assert a right to appropriate that property to pur.
poses different from those for which it was originally intended. It
was no light matter either to make the House of Commons affirm
that principle.
Mr. WA RD thought that the subject befoae the House contained
two distinct questions. One was the series of resolutions proposed by
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Homo Department, a! at the other
was the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon-
shire, calling on the House to rescind those resolutions which had been
agreed to by Parliament in 193 i. With regard to the first of those re..
solutions he should say but little ; they were not now legitimately be-
fore the House. He was bound to say that they were much obscured by

vagueness, as had been observed last night by the Noble Lord the Mem-
): WS lamalbskfor North Lancashire, and as his Hon. Friend the Member for Wilt-
' :.z. 7_...
~Idffie experienced, having lost two days in an attempt to unravel them.
C..-,.., . laugh.) He (Ur. Ward) had thought the germ of the appro_
--:_t5,?..,`J.,A., • clause was contained in the resolutions ; but his doubts
"":11,_,, -, . -. spelled by the speeches of the Noble Member for Stroud
je..4FJA.6:.%,r: '''' ~ • -Abe Noble Secretary for Ireland, who avowed thst it was
tl4-4 ,_,v, 0,,, % pe: tention of the Government to propose a compromise on the
0;t::
/,.tx, f a declaration made at the close of last session by the Duke of
=,--"---- It • .., ington. He should belie his own feelings if he did not express re.
"•••••:-.. • ; -c,N
!icspet at such a compromise. He came now to the:proposition of the Hon.
ea Baronet the Member for North Devon. That Hon. Baronet called 011

them to rescind the resolution of 1533, but what were his reasons ?
He said he had a strong delight; but certainly personal feelings
were not so important as to induce the House to make them grounds
for rescinding their own resolutions. An Hon. Baronet who seconded
the motion of last night stated that he considered these resolutions as
prejudicial to the Church, and that he had opposed them from the
first. He (Mr. Ward) congratulated the Hon. Baronet on the new
light which had burst upon him ; but the Hon. Gentleman forgot that
he (Mr. Ward) was the originator of this principle, and that if he had
not found a seconder in the Hon. Member for the City of London his
motion would have been seconded by the Hon. Baronet himself. The
Hon. Baronet voted for the motion, and in his vindication for so
doing wrote one of the most eloquent letters he (Mr. Ward) ever read
to one of his constituents, who had condemned him for the vote he
had given. He would now go back to the question of the re•
solutions of 1835. Those resolutions arose out of the conviction
of every man in the House that no measure of conciliation for Ireland
would be effective unless it struck at the root of the evil which cre-
ated all the animosity, and was to be found in the Established Church
of the country. To this anomaly this Church, which was called na-
tional, though it did not include one-seventh of the people of the
country that the whole of its evils were traceable.—(Hear.) He was
the humble organ which gave a voice to this general feeling when he
embodied it in the resolution which he had the honot r to propose to the
House. Without political connections—without any party in that
House—he proposed the principle contained in that resolution; yet,
such was the force of conviction which that principle carried with it,
that from the moment it was proposed its truth was at once admitted
by all disinterested parties, and had gone through and made part of
the struggle up to the present moment.—(Hear, hear.) It was upon
this ground that the Melbourne Cabinet was broken up, and that
of' the Right Honourable Baronet opposite was formed, and it was
upon this ground also that the resolutions were passed by which
the Right Honourable Baronet was again dislodged.—(Hear, hear.)
They were now called upon to rescind these resolution, but he would
ask upon what grounds ? The Hon. Baronet the Member for North
Devon had furnished no reason why they should be rescinded. He had
not shown that the Irish Church was a national establishment, nor did
he even assume it to be the Church of the nation.—(" Hear, hear," from
Mr. O'Connell.) The Hon. Baronet spoke of the good will which he
entertained towards Ireland, but his amendment was a strange proof of
this. It was a proof that he was an apt pupil in the school of the Right
Hon. Baronet to whose party he attached himself, and had learned
how to use those very convenient words " all practical grievances."—
(Hear, hear, hear.) This was exactly of a character with all the
Conservative professions of regard for Ireland. These were the sort
of snares which those Gentlemen resorted to with respect to Ireland.
The question was necessarily one of finance on both sides. On one side
it teas contended that the clergy were paid from a fund provided for the
public benefit, and that the fund thus provided was at the disposal of
the Parliament from year to year. That the instructton to be furnished
by means of this fund must vary from time to time, and must be in ac.
cordance with the assent of the people at large. For his own part he
knew of no other basis. The Hon. Baronet the Member for North
Devon described this property as the oldest known, and thus admitted
thst it came to the present possessors by inheritance, and was transmitted
by Act of Parliament to be administered for the use of the public by the
direction of the Legislature. This had been done wisely with respect to
Eng'and and Scotland, where the funds were appropriated for
the support of the predominant creeds. The rule was reversed
in Ireland, and the consequence was that instead of peace and
good-aril', anarchy, hatred, and violence were the results. Let
them give the Catholics an interest in the preservation of tithe pro-
perty, and approximate as nearly as possible to principle, or there
would be no peace In Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman here quoted the au-
thority of Bishop Watson in support of his opinion, that civil govern-
ment had no necessary connection with any particular religion, nor was
any particular form of the latter necessary for the protection of life,
liberty, or property; that these were as well protected under the Pres-
byterian form in Scotland as under the Episcopal in France and Eng-
land; and that the true and proper basis of an Establishment was the
popular creed.—(Hear, hear.) According to this principle the Church
of Ireland was not a national Church, fur it was popular in nothing but
the sense of its injustice.—(Hear, hear.) A great writer, whose poli-
tical opinions, were consonant with those entertained by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, had used the phrase "political lie." Mr. Carlile, in speaking
of the old Government of France, called it an "unreal Government,"
hecauso it performed none of the functions for the exercise of
which it professed to be established ; and that, as a " political
lie," it necessarily ended in anarchy. He added that all unreal
currencies must eventually come Into the bank of national intel-
ligence for payment, when the counterfeit must be eventually dis.
covered." Let this be applied to Ireland, and see how the " poli-
tical lie" had operated. The counterfeit of a national Establishment
had been discovered by the people, and the consequence was that it in-
duced them to endanger their lives and liberties in illegal opposition to
it. The position we were in at present was this—either we must con
time to concede to principle, or revert to the penal laws.—(Hear, hear,
from Mr. O'Connell) If the former course were adopted, it would ce-
tirely alienate from us a country which was one of the brightest jewels
in the Crown of this empire. For his part he would not consent to re
cede or rescind. He called upon the House to announce to the world its
determination to discount enance the sectarian rancour which endeavoured
to disguise and dignify itself by the name of Christ ianit y, and to proclaim
to the world its resolution to double the importance of Great Britain
henceforward, by rendering all the subjects of the realm happy and con-
tented.—(Ministerial cheers.)
Lord TEIGNMOUTII denied that those who supported the motion
of the Honourable Baronet the Member f.r Devonshire were influenced
by factious motives The Noble Lord at the head if the Home
Departnaent, in his speech of last night, had vindicated to the heart's
core the principle of appropriation. Other Honourable Members also,
and particularly the Gentleman who last addressed the House, de-
clared that what they wanted was appropriation, and that without it
the question could never be selled.—(Hear, hear) The conclusion,
then, to which he came was, that they were discussing, not the question
ostensibly proposed by the Noble Lord (J. Russell) lest night, but that
other obsolete question of appropriation, as it had been called on the
opposite side of she House. This was the way in which the question
was to be received, and to discuss it satisfactorily they should at once
grapple with the manly course taken by the Hon. Member who had de.
rig the E-tablishment in Ireland as a political lie.—(Cheers from
Mr. O'Connell) The Hon. Gentleman who had used that phrase was
not acquainted with the Irish people, either Protestant or Catholic.
Had that Hon. Gentleman travelled as he (Lord Teirimouth) had done
in that country—had he listened to those who wero competent to !rive
him information—hail he exercised his own observation, and availed
himsel of the intelligence of persons resident on the spot, he would re-
gard the Church of Ireland as a blessing to the country.—(Cheers, and
cries of " Oh, oh.") He would support the resolution of the Hon
Member for North Devon, as necessary to be carried before any finel
adjustment of the tithe question could take place He :tad listened
attentirely to the speech of the Noble Lord (J. Russell) last night, in
hopes of collecting that information on the subject which, from his
standing in tee House, it was his duty to have furnished; but he re-
gretted to say that he had been deeply disappointed in his expectations.
It hell out nothing of promise, nothing of peace; there was in the
whole course of it something to damp and depress the spirit of hope.
The Noble Lord faltered as he went on, as if convinced that he was
unable to produce any benefit to Ireland. They were told of wars,
massacres, and bloodshed. It was

of sight

" Bella, horrida
Et Tybrim mutt° spumantern sanguine cerno.
Non Simoiis tibi, nec Xanthus, nec Dorica castra

Defaerint." •
(Hear, hear.) The appropriation clause was a millstone round the
Noble Lord's neck.—(Hear, hear.) Why did lie not abandon the prin-
eiple which evidently shackled him as he went along, and which he
evidently appeared to feel was an insuperable barrier to the adjustment
of the question ?—(Hcar, hear.) The motion now before the House was
one, and he did not deny it, which involved the fate of Ministers.—
!Cheers and counter cheers.) It was for that reason he cordially sup.
ported it,
Mr. M. BELLEW was glad that the course was made public which
would be pursued towards Ireland, if the Right Hon. Baronet opposi.e
came into power. The Church was the hinge upon which turned all
the questions relating to the administration of Ireland. Though what
the Noble Lord had proposed was far shot t of what Ireland lad a
to expect, yet still the Noble Lord should receive his cordial support,
liecause what lie did propose to give would net only be a benefit
in itself, but would show an intention on the part of Govern.
:rent to defer in some degree to the opinions of the Irish public.
There was a most curious manner of comparing the number of Ca
tholics and Protestants in Ireland adopted by the other side; they
looked upon this question with reference to the question before the
House. When the subject of Municipal Reform was before them, the
number of Catholics in Ireland formed a grOund of complaint ; but
when they came to speak of the tithe question, or any measure con.
nected with the Irish Church, they immediately changed their tone,
and instead of the immense numbers of Catholics we heard of their great
scarcity as compared with the Protestant population. The appropria-
tion clause was a new proposition to any one acquainted with the his..
tory of Europe. In Franco, in Holland, and in Germany, there was an
appropriation clause in full force. The education of the people was
provided for by the State, and they did not dream of a dominant reli.
gion supported by the majority of the people who did not partake of its
tenets. In Ireland social intercourse had been almost destroyed from
the baneful efFects of the tithe system: The landlord whose brother, or
whose son held a living could not forgive the tenant a vote which
had a tendency to injure or deprecate that property ;—(Hear,
hear)—and there were too many cases well known to the House,
where the most unrelenting and heartless persecution had
been resorted to for the purpose of gratifying the landlords' re.
vengeful feelings against the tenants for having given such votes. This
state of things was not, he trusted, to continue. The proprietor of
Church property could not at present entertain good feelings towards
those who were in daily opposition to his claims, and the effects of
this social warfare were too evident in every part of Ireland. Such
scenes could not be sufficiently regretted ; such scenes were becoming
more frequent every day; they were caused by the operation of the pre- '
sent anomalous tithe system, and would undoubtedly continue until it
should be abolished. He trusted this was the last Session of Parliament
which would assemble without a satisfactory adjustment of this vexatious
and agitating question.

Mr. SHAW said that it was the opinion of those at his side of the
House that the proper course to adopt was, by rescinding the resolutions
as moved last night, to go into a full discussion of the question free and
unshackled by any resolutions affirmative of appropriation, or of any-
thing which might be so construed. This certainly would be a more
fitting frame for the mind of the Legislature, than if they went into
a discussion of its merits, with a pledge of their opinions already
recorded before the Houee.—(Hear, and loud cheering.) The
Noble Lord, when moving his resolutions last night, said, or at least
he understood him so to infer by his speech, that no measure for the
adjustment of tithes in Ireland would be final and satisfactory without
some power at least similar in its nature to the appropriation clause.
The Noble Lord did not go so far as to say that those resolutions would
tend to a final and satisfactory adjustment. Why, then, should Hon.
Members at this side of the House support the proposition of the Noble
Lord if, even on his own showing, it would not be satisfactory ?
Where was the inducement to the friends of the Church to acquiesce in
the arrangement if it would not be final, and that they might be called
on next year for another change ? They lost all inducement to sup-
port it. The friends of the Church were offered no interest in agreeing
to the Noble Lord's resolutions.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Shaw) would not
contend that the Noble Lord should undertake that the Bill would be
final and satisfactory. Perhaps that might be too much to ask. But he
would ask this—that the Noble Lord, as representative of her Majesty's
Ministry, should not come down to that House and ask a pledge to re-
corded upon the journals of that House pledging themselves before-
hand that the clergy and the people would not be satisfied
with the projected settlement. Yet this would be no more
nor less than the effect of his resolutions.—(Hear, hear) The
Noble Lord must be perfectly aware that there was a great and powerful
minority at that side of the House, and he must he also aware that the
great bond of union between them was inviolability of Church property.
He was always an advocate for an equitable adjustment of Church pro-
perty : he was an advocate for an abolition of pluralities, and a dis-
tribution of Church property more equally; but this distribution should
be amongst its own members in order to be just. With respect to the
change of tithe into rent charge, he believed there could be scarcely a
second opinion as to its propriety or its good effects. He had always
been of opinion that it was a change calculated to producemuch good ;
but he thought the reduction was entirely too great. He should, perhaps,
not say another word upon this subject, but here he could not allow to
pass an observation of the Noble Lord's, directed against the Irish Pro-
testant Clergy, and upon their part he (Mr. Shaw) felt bound to say
it was most uncalled for. In any country there was no other in-
stance of a body of men bearing up against such continued privations
and unmerited sufferings with an equal degree of forbearance, There
would be a difficulty in finding any body of men so deserving of
all their warmest sympathy for patience under suffering, or for every
virtue, than the Irish Clergy, who were viewed, it would appear, by
the Noble Lord in such a light, that, act as they might, they could not
please him.—(Hear, hear.) Unmoved when the war of opposition had

been brought to their domestic hearths—when their families were
in many cases starving—when poverty was assailing them in everyshape
—and it was thought by the Noble Lord that even those sufferings, su-
per-induced by no misconduct of theirs, did not entitle them to the poor
privilege of complaint, for when they had in the enjoyment of that me-
lancholy privilege of suffering, appealed to the Government, the Noble
Lord's sympathy was conveyed in a joke. He thought they were so
used to grieve they had found—
. such a charm in melancholy,
They would not if they could be gay."
With respect to the third resolution, perhaps the Noble Lard was of
opinion that it was only putting in force what the law had already
done. This was a great mistake of the Noble Lords, and one
which could be too soon corrected. He held in his had a table of the
Church revenues of Ireland; its amount was 408,148/. This was not
all the revenue of the parochial clergy; the parochial clergy received
-186,7841, and the residue was made up by what was paid to the
Bishops, &c. All this he would beg to remind Hon. Gentlemen was
not the amount of tithes, for at present there was no tithe in Ire-
land—it was the amount of the composition entered into in lieu of tithe
throughout the country generally. By that sum there was payable by
the landlords 257,0831., and in addition to this they had undertaken the
payment of a large portion of the residue during the last three years
that is undertaken to pay it upon the part of the tenantry as it had been
permitted by the Act of 3 and 4 William IV., cap. 100, which permitted
the head landlord to undertake the payment for one year and the minor
landlords for six months, as well as he (Mr. Shaw) recollected. Fer this
they had been allowed a per centage by the Clergy, and so general had
this become that there now remained but 240,000 which were not un-
dertaken, so that the question so far was very fast settling itself. He had
always been most desirous of a settlement between the landlords and the
Clergy, and of this he was sure that it would be far more easy to bring
, the landlords and the Clergy to an understanding than the Clergy
and the occupiers. He (Mr. Shaw) was of opinion that the reduc-
tion peoposed was entirely too great for the advantage conferred,
and he was most anxious not to allow so large a reduction. However,
it had this advantage, that between them the question was only one of
amount. With respect to the resolution which proposed the investment
of the purchase money, he should say that in purchasing tithe property
they would not beable to realise 56 per cent. upon what the Clergyman
receives, and therefore he would ask, why lose so much in an unneces-
sary proceeding ? He wished the change to be As generally acknow.
edged and as widely spread as the change of duties, and he objected
to any concealment of it. Protestant landlords were the fittest trustees
of it. They had the deepest interest, and while they took care that
the soil did not suffer in too large an amount, they might be looked
upon as the best protectors of the Church. If bad men should again
obtain power—if times again became disturbed, as before they had
been—and that those who were found with sufficiently evil intentions
f to confiscate the Church property entirely, where could they find men
I better capable or more willing to oppose them than the Protestant land.
• lords of Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) Those would be found the best pro-
tectors of the Church, and in their hands he would like to seethe tithe-
charge. He thought the redemption of the tithes a most useless and
I expensive proceeding. He had an objection to the sth resolution. He
I did not impugn it as an appropriation clause, but he objected to it, Mae-
! much as it subjected the property of the clergy to an annual investiga.
tion, unfair in its nature, unfair in its principle, and inconvenient and
annoying in its operation. With respect to the 6th resolution, if it was
not a juggle it was worse. If the Government wished for a
bona fide purchase, why did they not go to the Consolidated Fund?
The truth was that resolution contained the form, if not the prin.
cip'e of the appropriation clause, and, as such, it had received
the approbation of Mr. O'Connell. The Noble Lord charged
his (Mr. Shaw's) side of the House with unfair dealing in the
the matter at issue—and said that they had taken advantage of him,
and endeavoured to entrap him. Now he (Mr. Shaw) distinctly de-
nied the truth of that charge and he hoped, by a reference to a few
. . _ .

facts, not only to convince the House, but the Noble Lord himself,
that it was totally unfounded. The Noble Lord stated that he had
been induced to bring forward the resolutions of which he had given no-
tice, because he had been led to believe that the other side of the House
concurred with the view taken by the Duke of Wellington and others
of the Conservative party, that the question of appropriation should not
then be mooted. Now he (Mr. Shaw) believed that he could satisfy
the Noble Lord that do such concurrence ever existed except in his own
imagination. In the matter of the Irish Poor Law question he ap-
pealed to the Nob!e Lord whether it was not entertained in the fairest
and best spirit by that side of the House, although it had not been de-
manded by th2rs ? The next of the Noble Lord's measures was the
Irish Corporation Bill. The Noble Lord took credit to himself for keep-
ing that Bill back. Now, what are the facts ? On the first dsy
of the present Session of Parliament, the sth of Nevem.
ber last, the Noble Nord gave notice of a motion on the sutject of
Corporations in Ireland for that day month, the sth of
December.—(Hear.) On that day he accordingly introduced his

measure, and yet the Noble Lord would wish to have inferred that he
was misled by them. The Noble Lord moved the second reading of the
Corporation Bill; but he said, in doing so, that if there was to be any
npposition to it he would feel disposed to postpone it. The Noble Lord
the fixed the 23d of March as the day on which the discussion was to be
taken. On the 23d of March, however, the Noble Lord gave a pom-
pous notice, that he would put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Tamworth, respecting the course he proposed pursuing

in the matter. The question he accordingly put, and the Right Lion.
Baronet answered the question by asking another. The charge o: the
Noble Lord was, that the appropriation clause waa altogether kept cut

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to aisswer in the negative.
Mr. .SHAW had always understood the gravamen of the Noble
Lord's Mary against them to be, that they had keot out of sight alto-
gether the question respecting the appropriation clause until within the
last four nights. Well, on the Noble Lord's question being put, his
(frr, Shaw's) Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth replied,
that it was unusual for the leader of the Gorernment to ask a question
of the leader of the Opposition as to the course he meant to pursue,
hut he could give no answer to the Noble Lord's question on Irish Mu.
nicipal Corporations until the Noble Lord stated what he meant to do
with the appropriation clause in the measure to be introduced respect
ing Irish Tithes.—(Cheers.) Was that keeping the Noble Lord in the
dark ? Was that taking an advantage of him ? Did that look like en-
trapping him ? ('ould he support his charge after it ? Had he, in short,
any ground whatever to stand on ? But what did the Noble Lord do then ?
Ile then commenced that system of mystification which had been acted
on ever since. The Noble Lord had said that is future, when his (Mr.
Shaves) side of the House made professions, he would not believe them.
The Noble Lord would do as he thought best in that respect, and they,
no doubt, would try to console themselves as well as they could with the
cons, ionsness of their innocence of any such charge. An Hon. Member
opposite had charged his (Mr. Shaw's) Hon. Friend the Member for
North Devon with haring introduced this subject as a history of Cock
Robin, and made it his hobby; but if strict justice hail been done,
he should hare stated that it was the Noble Lerd he supported
who rode it as a hobby.—(Loud cheers.) And if any one killed
Co. k Robin, It was certainly the Noble Lord upon the other side
of the House, who, in the debate of last night, described himself as
infit+zpuer.—(Laughter.) lie it was that unhorsed the Noble Lord his
coleagne, and not his Hon. Friend. The position of the Noble Lord in
regard to the Irish Church was this—he was willing to W
wound
.but
afraid to strike —(Hear, hear.) But enough of those things. hat
he (Mr. Shaw) had to say was this, if the Noble Lord opposite (J.
Russell) would consent to put the question of appropriation altogether
out of the way he for one was quite willing to enter at once into any
reasonable arrangement which could effect a satisfactory settlement of
the Irish tithe question. Nay, more, he would undertake to do the
same in regard to the Irish corporations. Ile did not mean to commit
himself.—(Hear, and laughter from the Ministerial Benches, and from
Mr. O'Connell.) He thanked the Hon. and Learned Member for
his sheet—but he was not, like him, in the habit of speak-
ing according to the occasion, nor did he wish to make a state.
ment iu or out of the House which he would desire here-
after to retract—(Cheers from the opposite side of the House.)
Mr. O'CONNELL spoke to the following effect :—I can i3fely pro.
raise the House that if they extend me their patience I will not trespass
long upon their attention. I rise after the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, but not by reason of anything he has said—post hone, and
non propter eum.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man is singularly liberal in h s advances. Ile offers the Noble Lord,
that if the Noble Lord will consent to do nothing he will help hint
(Great laughter.) These are the terms of the proffered holy alliance.
These are the terms on which the Noble Lord may ensure the assistance
of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Renewed laughter.) As
to the rest of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, it was divided into
two unequal parts, both of which, however, had equally little to do with
the subject before us.—(Hear, hear.) The first part referred to resole.
tions which are not under discussion at the present time; the second
contained the history of what was said and done on one side of the
House, and what was said and done on the other side of the House, on an
occasion some time gone by, having no bearing on the present discussion,
and just as interesting to us as the history of Cock Robin, which has been
much spoken of to-nlght ; or, if the Noble Member for Marylebone prefer
the comparison, as the Life and Adventures of Tom Murphy.—(A laugh.)
The Noble Lord near me has asked the House to go into Committee, in
order to consider the details of this subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman
might just as well have favoured us with his speech in Committee, but,
as it is, I trust he will give us the benefit of the instalment.--(A laugh.)
The question, however, before us is whether we shall rescind the resole.
tions of 1635 or not; this is, I say, the only question before us, appa.
rently ; but what is the real question ? The real question is, and it is
vain for shallow hypocrisy to deny it, the real question is, how shall Ire_
land be governed.—(Hear, hear, and loud ci ies of " Oh, oh.") Yes, dis-
guise it as you will, put it as you will under cover of your love for Pro..
testantism and your abhorrence of popery, this is the question ; this is
the question which is now under discussion, and which hes been
under discussion for the last 700 years.—(Great laughter, and cries
of "Oh, oh.") Yes, you may affect to laugh and sneer, I make
no blunder about the matter. I know as well as you that Pro-
testantism was not your war-cry 700 years ago, as it is now ; but I say
that for 700 years back the question has been how dominant England
shall treat subject and oppressed Ireland.—(oh, oh.) This is the only
question, and this is the real question between you, the Tories, and the
Whigs, at least as far as professions go, for most of you profess in
other matters nearly the same principles as the Whigs : the only dif.
question Terence i isin e carrying theseshall
Irelandprinciples
be
eainntuopLerff:eernfLedrß governed—shallusth
ethe e realgov governed
by a section!—(Tremendous shouts, and cries of " Hear, hear," from
the Opposition benches.) Oh, I thank you for that cheer.—(Renewed
shouts.) Yes, shout as you will; I care not for the shouts of an inso-
lentnattihoen.—He(Thn. InGetnlitelemOapnp,sosvietiioene
benchesan completelyd despicable
drowneddomi
for several moments, and we could not hear a word he said till the
sentences,)votc Why
Speaker had succeeded in restoring partial ender.) Oh, Sir
t. 'tie (continued
. that which he has told you?
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman), let them shout;
s yell—(lmmense uproar—it speaks the base spirit of party.—
(Several sentences were again lost in the . uproar.) you may
sneer at
seven millions.—(The
should not
tnahee uproar ifs eyno Bug:fir: nl e:rdea.rt
otawnnledss
say
yeasketvoerthal you
—(Hear, hear, hear," and loud cries of " Order, order,") The
English people are aware of what
your conduct—they know
you have
done amongst them of late in order that you may command us here.
after. You have carried bribery further than it ever was carried before;
you have gained your majority by it. Never was there more extensive
bribery than that which you have practised.—(Crles
of " Order " rind
" Oh, oh," from Opposition Members.) Yes, you have practised it and
the highest amongst you have shrunk Nora investigation,—(Loud
cheering, and cries of" Question.") If the
i Hon. Gentleman who cries
question wishes to what it is, I tell him it is as to the mode of govern-
ing Ireland—(Hear, hear)—for it is impossible to think that such a
paltry attempt as that which is included in the motion of the Hon.
Baronet the Member for North Devon can
be the Mode or the means
of inducing us to weeder from that which is the real question be-
tween us.—(Hear, hear.) Why, let me read
to you what is the ques-
tion : whether you will rescind this resolution is the nominal question ;
but in reality the question is, by what mode you mean to govern Ire-
land. Before I read the resolution let me remind you that not only
the people of England, and the people of Scotland, and the people of
Ireland, but the inhabitants of Europe aro attending to the debates of
this House, andl the questions which you have reserved for your deter-
mination. From the camp of Don Carlos to the throne of Nicholas
they are attending to your proceedings; the world is listening to
you ; and do you think that they will not look upon you with contempt
if they find that you permit paltry party spirit to enter into your delibe-
rations and bearing upon your decisions, by which you will distinguish
one nation from the other, and make those whose powers ought be
united, consolidated, and identified with each other, a divided, and a
disunited people ? But what is your resolution that you want to
rescind ? This is the resolution : " That any surplus revenue of the
present Church Establishment in Ireland not required for the spiritual
care of its members —." T he scope and object of the resolution,
then, are these :—to provide for the spiritual care of the members of
the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) You say, then, that the
money is not enough. This is what is said by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Donegal, who has highly praised the Establishment ; but, then,
how is this difficulty met as to the money being applied to political

objects ? It is declared that the surplus revenue " shall be applied
to the moral and religious education of all classes of the people, with-
out distinction of religious persuasion." Now there is the resolution that
is so terrific. That it is which is to come between us and justice—that
it is which is to stop us—that it is which is so monstrous, which is so
frightful, that the reverend clergymen of the Church of Ireland declare
that they are afraid the funds of the Church will be exhausted, that they
never will be sufficient for all which the wants of the Protestants of
Ireland may require. They are for the spiritual wants of the Protes.
tants being supplied, and they declare that when they are supplied the
surplus should not be employed in any other way. How, not employed
in instruction—not employed it: giving a moral and religious educa-
tion to the people ? Remember it is for the moral and religious edu-
cation of the peol le. Oh, you tell us it is not right to employ it in that
manner. Why, how many of you are there who go about amongst us,
how many of your Missionaries are there amongst us, who tell us that
it is the benefit of education and the advantages of intelligence that are
wanting to us to induce us to become Protestants ? If you believe
yourselves, then why not act upon the resolution ? You tell the world
we want education, and you show the world you do not believe what
you lay. You prove to the world that you do not rely upon the Bible,
but upon the strength of your party.—(Hear. hear, hear.) You prove
to the world that the only riches of the Church that you value are
those which you can bring with you in Judas's scrip.—(Cheers.) If
we are to be benefitted by education—if we are to be made Pro.
testants by education, then why not allow us to be educated ?—(Hear.)
If you believe that Protestantism is the religion that will be preferred
by educated men, then why have such a horror of the surplus funds of
the Church being devoted to that education which you say is the best
method for making men Protestants ?—(Hear, hear.) But then you
may tell us that though Protestantism may increase as education is ac-
quired, yet it may happen that giving the surplus to education may not
allow hereafter enough for the spiritual wants of Protestantism. What
in such a case does the resolution provide ? It says, " providing for
the resumption of such surplus, or of any such part of it as may be re.
quired by an increase in the number of the members of the Established
Church."—(Cheers.) And yet that is the resolution which you want
to rescind. That is the resolution which has so frightened the Parsons
of Devonshire that they have put forward their Member to move for its
being expunged from the Journals of this House. This, then, is the
awful, this the dreadful resolution! Oh! how I rejoice that in the
struggle in which my country is engaged, and in which you are com-
bined against her, that you stand before the world the parties to such an
absurd, such a contemptible, and such an unjust resistance to her rights
—that you, despite of the scorns and defiance of the sneers of man-
kind, should stand thus before civilised Europe? That is the pro-
position you oppose, and that proposition goes no further than this—
that the surplus is to be applied to the purposes of education, which edu-
cation you yourselves say will make men Protestants; and then if, in
consequence of education, more Protestant Clergymen are to be re-
quired, then the very resolution you want to rescind allows the resump-
tion of the surplus for all the purposes required by an increased number
of Protestants. You object to that.—(Hear, hear.) The shout you
gave awhile ago was, indeed, a fitting motion to the Hon. Baronet—not
his speech; for never in all my life did I hear anything more harmless
than that was.—(Laughter.) Hon. Gentlemen have given him credit
for purity of intentions—many Hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, on
both sides of the House, have spoken of the purity of his motives.
Really, Sir, when there is a rule of the House that no one Member is to
impute bad motives to another, no matter how bad his acts may be, Ido
think it ought not to be suffered to impute good motives to any man who
has made a bad motion with impunity.—(Laughter.) And yet that is the
position of the Hon. Baronet. He has brought forward an unjust, an
unfair, and an absurd motion, and then we are told of his good inten-
tions.—(Hear.) Now, if any man were to tell us that the Honourable
Baronet was actuated by a desire of notoriety, that he was instigated by
anity, and that he was carried by the blast of Conservatism into a
region which he never otherwise would have reached, oh ! then the
delicate and fastidious would be shocked, and it would be said you are
not at liberty to impute bad motives nor to accuse another of having bad
intentions. The Hon. Baronet has made a bad motion with good inten-
tions; but did the Hon. Baronet never hear of the Dutch proverb,
which declares that a very bad place "is paved with good intentions?"
—(Hear, hear.) I impute no motives to the Hon. Baronet, and as far
as Parliamentary language will allowme to go, I say, that I " laugh to
scorn" any one who can say that a man can come forward in this House
and propose to expunge the resolution which I have now read, and that
in doing so he can be animated with good intentions.—(Hear, hear.)
But after him came the Hon. Baronet the Member for Warwick, who
told us that it was with delight he seized the opportunity of seconding
the motion for expunging these resolutions. If that delighted hint, I
must say that it is very easy to please him, and a small matter gratifies
him.—(Laughter.) He said he would not consent to " give to the
enemies of the Church the property of the friends of the Church."
Vs ill he tell me whose property it is ? Will he also answer me
another question, and tell me whose property it was ?—(Hear, hear.)
I have heard of one Gallant Officer on the opposite benches, the Hon.
Member for Donegal, who endowed a church in Ireland. Ido not at all
doubt it, for I can easily credit the liberality and piety of the Hon and
Gallant Member in this respect ; but then, I ask, with that single ex-
esption, whose property was that of the Church ? Was it not the pro-
perty of the Roman Catholics, and was it not given fur the purpose of
having prayers for the dead, for the celebration of masses, for the invo-
cation of saints, and for the maintenance of such other " superstitious
and damnable doctrines ?"—(Hear, and laughter.) Yes, you thought
the doctrine was bad ; but then, you said, "the money is good,"-
-and, accordingly, you protested against the doctrine, whilst you took
care anxiously to clasp the money to your hearts. And, having done
this, you now refuse to do justice, under the paltry pretence of religion.
It is a paltry and a hollow hypocrisy.—(Hear, hear.) There is a kind of
morbid humanity abroad ; it is to be found amongst men who affect
philanthropy—who are tenderly alive to all the evils which may be en-
dured by those who are not of an agreeable colour, and who are to be found
' in distant regions; they arc men who overflow with the milk of human
kindness for black men and women, but who can with patience, with
equanimity, and even with approbation, look on, and see all the in-
juries you inflict upon Irishmen, and all the injustice you do to Ireland.
I with the Irish were negroes, and then we should have an advocate.—
( Hear, and laughter.) This erratic humanity wanders beyond the ocean,
and visits the hot islands of the West Indies, and thus having dis-
charged the duties of kindliness there, it returns, burning and deso-
lating, to treat with indignity, and to trample upon as enemies, the
people of Ireland. The Honourable Baronet has used the words, " he
would not allow the property of friends to be given to enemies." Is it
to pay the priesthood of the people that the property of the Church is
sought to be applied ? No ; for we, true to our principles, and finding
the Catholic religion to prosper unconnected with the State, would
not allow it to be contaminated by mammon, and will only have it sus-
tained as it has flourished, upon the voluntary contributions of its
own members.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Kilmarnock,
who is not now in his place, but I suppose he is in the House, was kind
enough to speak upon that side of the House also, and he, with a dex-
terity which was more to be admired than his candour, read half a
sentence of mine, and took particular care to omit the other
half.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I alluded to the resolutions, and
; observed that as Protestantism diminished, the contributions to the
; purposes of the State would be increased, and I alio showed that th e
expenditurf for the purposes of Protestantism would be enlarged with
the increase of Protestantism. Was it fair, then, in this House to
quote the first part of the sentence and to omit the other part ?
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Pontefract is not here, and I am,
therefore, willing to pass by the philippic he was pleased to make on her
,Majesty's Ministers. He told us, indeed, of " a cat lapping milk up."—
(Laughter.) But I shall not follow him; I sha'l only give hint one line
of poetry for his " cat-lapping :"

" The cat may mew, the dog will have his day."
(Laughter.) But new the real point to be decided is this—whether
you are disposed to make the union permanent or not. My Honourable
Friend the Hon. Baronet the Member for Drogheda, told you that
which you would not believe me if I told you, but can you disbelieve
him ? He told you how deeply the people of Ireland feel as to the con-
test which is now going on. We may say we are eight millions. I say,
you may take the whole of the Protestants of Ireland, and it would be
hard indeed to take them from the people of Ireland, for I am at this
moment surrounded by Protestant friends who are ardent in the cause
of Ireland ; but if I give you all, you will have a million and a half, in-
eliding the Presbyterians, who do not love tithes. Taking then man for
man, woman for woman, and child for child, and there is a balance in our
favour of five millions. You have a million and a half, we have six millions
and a half; deduct the million and a half, and then you find a clear balance
of five millions. It is " the total of the whole."—(Loud laughter, ill
which Mr. Hume, who was sitting near to Mr. O'Connell, was observed
to join.) For nay own part, I never have disguised my opinion. I
always have said that a nation of eight millions was too numerous, if
they had common sense, to permit themselves to be treated as a pro-
vince. We were not treated as a province for near 700 years, though
we were misgoverned ; and for the last twenty-five years it was rising
in iiresperity unexampled in the annals of any nation. This, too, was
happening at the time when you were running a course of profligacy.
You were then sending your troops to America ; you attempted to
trample upon their liberties ; but thanks to their patriotism and their
Spirit, they met you in arms, they defeated you, and they established
their independence—(A Member on the opposition bench here cried
" Question.") It is a question of which you will hear more than one-e.—
(Cheers.) But then, you having fomented a rebellion in Ireland, you
availed yourselves of the diminished strength of the people, and
the distracted state of parties, and with 150,000 troops in the
country you carried the union. I am ready to consent that that
union may continue.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," " Oh, oh.")
You may sneer at that declaration, and say that you do not value my
consent—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh M.—but then you
sneered at America, and you got your answer.—(Cheers.) Let the Hon.
Baronet tell the people of Ireland he does not value their consents, but I
tell him that if the Conservative faction, or the Conservative party,
trample without hope of redress upon the people of Ireland, he may find
that, though victory may not be inscribed upon the banners of the Irish,
they never will consent to lie down degraded and willing slaves. The
Union should be one in which there ought to be no distinction between
Yorkshire and Carlow—between Waterford and Cumberland; there
ought to be an identity of laws, an identity of institutions, and an
identity of liberties. It may be said that I push the argument too far,
when I make use of the word identity; for the Church of the State in
England is the Church of the majority. I find that in England there are
twelve thousand places of worship connected with the Established Church,
and that the Dissenters have eight thousand meeting-louses. The
religion, then, of the majority of the people of England is that pro-
fessed by the Church of the State. In Scotland the religion of the
people is recognised as the national religion. In Ireland you have
trampled upon the religion, and you perpetrated your tyranny in the
worst (elm, and in the most odious shape, until at length the people of
Ireland spoke to you in a voice too loud not to be heard, and too unani-
mous to be misunderstood, and you found yourselves unable to con-
tinue them in their former state of degradation. In Scotland the
people turned out upon the mountain side—they met you in battle,
and, having defeated you, you were obliged to yield in Scotland. In
despite of you, there the Church of the State was the Church of the
people. What, then, should be the effect of the union ? That the
Church of the people must be the Church of the &ate. There is no
principle--I mean •o political principle—to prevent it ; but there is a
principle upon our part which must for ever prevent such an oc-
currence taking place in Ireland. It is this—that we are thoroughly
convinced that it would be the surest mode of decatholicising Ire-
land. We believe that tainting our Church with tithes, and
giving temporalities to it, would degrade it in the affections of the
people of Ireland. Offers have been made before to the clergy
of Ireland, and they have been rejected—the offer of any con-
nection with the State will ever be rejected. But, then, treating
Ireland as you do upon this very question, you tell them that there is
no union with England.—(Hear, hear.) These resolutions do not go
far enough. I admit it.—(Hear, hear.) But then I am ready to ac-
cede to these resolutions. My disposition is for an amicable settle-
ment. The Protestant landlords are now beginning to feel the weight
of tithes equally with the Catholics. From the county of Cork we
perceive vast numbers of petitions proceeding from all classes of poli-
ticians. The Consetvative landlords are becoming heartily sick of
the payment of tithes. They may call it " rent," but the tenant un.
derstands it as an additional burden to his rent. If the tenant appeal
to the agent for distraining for rent before the man is prepared to pay
it, the agent tells him that the clergyman of the parish is pressing the
landlord for his tithes, and he is obliged to collect his rent sooner than
otherwise it should be done, for the purpose of paying the clergyman's
demand; and thus it is that though you may call it rent, the people
feel it to be tithes.—(Hear.) The Protestant landlords, and even many
of the Protestant clergymen, are calling for a settlement of the
question. Even 'within the last week the letter of Archdeacon
Hoare has been published, In which he calls upon his
brother clergymen to accept the admirable terms offered by
the Queen's Government.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Will not these
terms be allowed to be accepted ? It is true that here Protestan-
tism is mixed up with politics, and the interests of religion are apt to
be overlooked in the advantages of party, Piety is combined with the
love of place, and the tranquillity of Ireland neglected for the hope of
the enjoyment of office. The Protestant gentry as well as the people of
Ireland call for conciliation now. Let, then, Ireland be now tranqui-
lized; and, as far as an humble individual can do, I have set the exam-

pie already, and I am ready to follow it up.—(Hear, dear, and cries of
" oh.") I have paid my tithes: I did not pay them for five VA's; I had
four persons attacking me at once. They have now been paid, beeeuse
I wished to set the example of beingprepared for an amicable settlement.
But then the Honourable Baronet will not allow that ; his " good in-
tentions" will prevent it, and induce him to rescind a resolution to which
common sense cannot object, but to which political Protestantism can of-
fer some opposition. We want equality with you, and you will not per-
mit us to have it. You genesis a Reform Bill—it was a stingy and a des-
picable Reform Bill. Why ? Because you would not trust us—your politi-
cal Protestantism again met us. We ought to have had the same
franchises which you enjoy. We were entitled to them by the union.
Why not give us an equality of civil rights ? Political Protestan-
tism could not permit us to have them. England has municipal
reform; Scotland has municipal reform; but Ireland has not obtained
corporation reform. Why, your political Protestantism again ?—(Hear,
hear.) How widely do you preach Protestantim in Ireland! You make
it the pretext for depriving us of every species of equality with your-
selves, and then, having rendered it odious, you rend forth your mis-
sionaries to preach it amongst the people whom you have made its
victims. It is despotism aided by hypocrisy, and yet you proclaim an
union, a legislative union, between subjects of the same realm. You
may do so, but you will be laughed at and scorned. I am
making an experiment amongst you, and frankly and fairly I tell you I
am convinced you will not do us justice. What prosper tis there of it,
when I find that owing to the enormous bribery practised by you
amongst the freemen, you have got such numbers into the Commons,
that the Lords think nothing of a majority of this House ?—(Cheers
from Members on the opposition benches.) It is of no avail for her Ma-
jesty's Ministers to bring in useful measures ; we hear them taunted
with the little they have done. Why, you won't let them do what they
would. First you taunt them with not doing more, and then,
when the propose to proceed, you place yourselves in opposition to
them, and them that there is another place.---(Loud cheers.) We
know that there is another place.—(Roars of laughter.) And we
know it needs only to be said that it is intended to extend political ad-
vantages to the people of Ireland to ensure a veto being pronounced
against the proposition. This is your triumph : yours is the power to
insult ; yours is the authority to oppress; you glorify yourselves in
your haughty station ; and while you pretend you wish us justice, you
exert all the powers you possess to prevent the identification of our
rights and liberties with yours. I did not intend to occupy the House
half so long. The question is simply this—are you disposed to do jus-
tice to Ireland ? You make us an offer ; you say you are disposed to
go into the consideration of the resolutions with good temper, but
first the appropriation principle must be struck out. The meaning of
that is plain: " Walk under the yoke, good gentlemen.—(lmmense
cheering.) Make the best of your way to the common place of execu-
tion—walk under it—bow your heads to it—and then, forsooth, when
you have rendered yourselves as contemptible as degradation can snake
you, when you have satisfied us of your unmanliness and worthlessness,
then we will consider you fit objects of conciliation, and entitled to par-
ticipate with us in the enjoyment of rational liberty."—(Long continued
cheering.) That is precisely what the Noble Lord the Member
fer North Lancashire promised us ; that is the way in which the
Noble Lord gave us to understand we might excite his good temper,
and insure to ourselves his countenance and all that is genial and win-
ning about it.—(A laugh.) The Hon. and Learned Recorder also, pro-
testing that lie never made speeches as a judicial partisan, except at the
monthly meetings of those liberal and enlightened men, the Corpora_
tion of Dublin, told us what mighty things we might expect at his
hands if we would but submit to this degradation.—(Cheers.) Do the
Hon. Gentlemen opposite taunt her Majesty's Government with not
having carried this resolution with effect ? Surely it is we who ought
to complain of that. We are the parties who are entitled to ask why it
has been allowed to slumber ? No attempt, however, has been made to
act upon it; and now the Hon. Gentlemen opposite deem even the
sound of it too much for our Irish ears. Its being allowed to re-
main upon the books is too great a submission to the wishes and
feelings of the people of Ireland; and, consequently, one Hon. Ba-
ronet moves and another Hon. Baronet seconds, both with the best
intentions, a motion to obliterate it from the Parliamentary records.
Heaven preserve us from your English Baronets l—(A laugh.) They
are the oddest cattle I. ever heard of. I find them voting for the
principle of appropriation at one time, and calling for its condemna-
tion at another. The Hon. Baronet who seconded this motion has given
a most unpleasant, I will call it a most awful, turn to the debate; it was
in his speech that for the first time the distinctive appellations of reli-
gion were ever given to any parties in this House. He said, " The Whigs
in ltlee had driven away a Catholic king, and he in 1838 would assist
in driving a Catholic Opposition from the Senate." If this was the way
in which the Hon. Baronet pleases to talk of the Catholic party in this
House, I beg to tell him that we have to the full as good a right to be
here as he has.—[Sir E. Wilmot said, as we understood, that he had spo-
ken of Catholic dominion.] The newspaper reports correspond with the
note I took at the time, but I am content to believe that Catholic domi-
nion was the phrase vied by the Hon. Baronet. There is no great diffe-
rence between the two. What do we demand—what do we wish ? We
wish this resolution to remain on your books, and then the Hon. Baronet
talks of Catholic dominion ; for I must take him to have meant dominion,
if he says so. Now, let me ask, is not this the first time the distinction of
religious parties has been introduced into this House ? I assure the
Honourable Baronet that I am as little disposed to Protestant as lie
Is to Catholic dominion ; and I beg to tell him more, that if Catholic
dominion diminished his rights as a Protestant, there is not a man in
existence who would more zealously and actively exert himself to de-
stroy it than I would. At the titan the lion. Baronet made that dis-
tinction, the Hon. Member for Melton, who is a Protestant ; the
Honourable Member for Armagh, who has belonged to the Presbyterian
church for twenty_five years ; and another Hon. Member, who is a dis-
senter of one of the persuasions, sat around me ; and we four, each dif-
fering from the other in our religious opinions, joined in one expression
of abhorrence at such a distinction being introduced amongst us Shall
we have polemical discussions in this House ? I beg the Hon Baronet
to understand that I am quite ready to meet him for any such encounter,
but not here. lam as prepared and as disposed as he can be to give rea-
sons for the hope that is in me; but we sit here as the representatives of
the people, and, as a representative of the Irish people, I call on you to
remember that your union is one of parchment ; it may be one of cob-
web, and it may be one of adamant ; but the latter it will not be unless
you do]ustice to Ireland.—(Cheering.)
Sir It. PEEL said, if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has exceeded
the limits which he prescribed for himself at the commencement of his
speech, I am the last man that should be disposed to regret the super-
fluity, because if I wautest a speech to justify the course of my Hon.
Friend—if I wanted a speech to show that it is desirable we should know
the principle on which her Majesty's Government mean to proceed—it
would be the speech which we have heard from the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman.—(Cheers.) The lion. and Learned Gentlemen says that we
propose to rescind a certain resolution which he read. The effect of that
resolution was to perpetuate a certain surplus of the Irish Church pro-
perty to the education of all classes of her Majesty's subjects, without
reference to their religious denomination. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman says, that because we propose to rescind that resolution, we
must intend to govern Ireland through the medium of hardships and
coercion. Then I ask the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, what
dues he think of those who practically abandon the resolution ?—(Op-
position cheers.) If it be so great a crime to explain to the people of
Ireland and to the people of England what are your real intentions—if it
be so great a crime to ask you to efface from the records of Parliament
the principle which would apply a surplus of Church property I. edu-
cation not connected with the Protestant faith—let me ask the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman how he justifies it to himself to give his assent
to resolutions which we are told do not involve the principle ?
(Cheers.) Does the Hon. and Learned Gentleman maintain that those
resolutions do involve the principle ?—(Hear, hear.) Do they involve
the principle or do they not ? This is a inal settlement—this, we are
told, is to be a satisfactory settlement. Then, I ask, do the resolutions
which we are asked to assent to, involve the principle of the reso-
lutions of 1835 or not If not, how does the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman reconcile it to himself to give them his sup-
port ? If they do, how does lie reconcile his construction of
them with the construction put on them by the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland, and, as it appears, also by the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department ?—(Cheers.) In the latter
case, which authority are we to believe? And if a doubt exists be-
tween the Government and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who on
this subject has such immense influence and authority—(Cheers)—if we
show this, do we not furnish a conclusive reason why we should hare all
vagueness and ambiguity cleared up, that we may come to a perfect un-
derstanding of the principle on which we are proceeding! I would
ask further, can Hon. Gentlemen be surprised at the anxiety and
doubt that pervade the Protestant minds in Ireland when they receive
the declarations that are made ? The Hon. Gentleman says he gives
his assent to the resolutions on this ground. He thinks, then, follow-
ing up his own principles, that you ought to have the religion of the
majority established in Ireland. As you have the religion of the ma-
jority in England established, and as you have the religion of the ma-
jority in Scotland established, so, says the Hon. Gentleman according
to his principles, you ought to have in Ireland the religion of
the majority established.—(Cheers.) And it is worthy of observation,
that while the Honourable Gentleman professes peace, and intimates
that, after refusing the payment of tithes for five years, he is now
setting a different example—while he refers us to the precepts of
Christianity, and professes everything that is mild and conciliatory, he
always reminds us as lie has done this night that the Scotch went
upon the hill-side with their broad-sword—(Opposition cheers and
counter cheers from the Ministerial benches)—and that in Scotland the
religion is that of the majority. But, says the Hon. Gentleman, " though
I consider this doctrine sound and conclusive, yet I will not push it to
its practical results"—and this is the security we have. " I don't ask
you to establish the religion of the majority in Ireland, because we
utterly repudiate any connection with the State. We are so satisfied
that a participation in any portion of the Church property would so dese-
crate our faith as to deprive it of its influence, that we cannot consent
under the circumstances to receive a portion of that property, and we,
therefore, choose not to push to their legitimate conclusions our argu-
ments with regard to the principles." The Honourable Gentleman is
looking with some anxiety for the quotation which he sees I am about
to make. lam not surprised at it when I see what security there is in
the abstinence of the Irish people. I have said he rests his own forbear.
ance 041 the ground that he repudiates any participation in Churcii pro-
perty ; but it was to him that the people of Iretand gave this assurance, as
a condition of the establishment of tranquillity in that country.
" Would you tranquillise Ireland, fellow up this plan." Now, what
plan ? Of course you would suppose a plan in utter repudiation of any
connection with or participation in Church property. Quite the re-
vers. " Follow up this plan ; give the glebes to the value of 3001 per
annum as the pay of the Clergy of the great and overwhelming majority
of the people of that country." Gentlemen of property and influence
may refuse to pay tithes for five years; but there is one species of pro-
perty that is staple, that is exempt from spoliation, that a refusal to
pay tithes cannot affect, via., the glebes in the possession of the Church
—(Cheers.) Leave the Church nominally in possession of the tithes
which may be withheld by conspiracy and the advice of subtle men ; but
if you wish to establish tranquillity follow up this plan; leave the tthes
with the Protestant Church, but take the glebes for the Catholic. The
Honourable Gentleman appealed to the Act of Union ; he says he holds
by the Act of Union, and wishes to give that national compact a fair
trial. He concludes that the Act of Union establishes the equa-
' lily of civil rights—Good. Does it nothing more ? Was it not
one condition of the Act of Union that the Protestant Church in
Ireland should be maintained unimpaired. And
hear, and loud was not
that a fundamental condition !—(Rear,
I ask, then, is it fair of the Hon. Gentleman to' declare his adherence
to the Act of Union in this respect that favours his views, but to deny
its validity with regard to matters with which his views do not accord?
In order to form a correct judgment of the nature of the proposition
made by my Hon. Friend, and in order to judge of the justice of those
accusations which have been preferred against him and others by the
Noble Lord, it is necessary for me to take a short review of what has
taken place with respect to this question. There are many Hon. Gen-
tlemen from whose minds the facts may have been obliterated by the
public events that have since transpired, and there are also many who
not having been in the last Parliament, may not have watched the pro-
gress of the question so as to be thoroughly acquainted with it. I con-
sider it necessary, therefore, that I should preface my answer to the
Noble Lord by shortly reverting to what has transpired on this subject.
I came into office at tho latter end of the year 1834, and I was at
that time sincerely desirous of effecting a settlement of this
tithe question. Such was my anxiety, that I exposed myself
to a charge of plagiarism by adopting the principles of the
measures of the former Government. The charge was, that
I had taken in the Bill brought in by his Majesty's preceding
Government. I, however, brought in that measure which proposed a
deduction from the incomes of the Clergy to the amount of twenty-
five per cent. ; the reduction of the tithe composition to a rent-charge.
We professed a desire to correct any abuse in the Protestant Church,
to reduce those incomes that were excessive, and to require duties
from those who did not perform any. Was I allowed to proceed with
that measure, the principle and details of wleich were taken from the
Bill of the Honourable Gentleman opposite ? No, was met by a pre-
liminary objection ; I was told that I should not proceed practically
with the consideration of the measure, because it was neceseary to pass
a resolution embodying in it principles which were considered indis.