The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

REFORM BILL.

The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Re-
form Bill having been read, several Lords presented them-
selves to the House, but at length gave way to
Lord DUDLEY, who throughout the whole of his
speech could only he beard in an occasional sentence, He
was understood to say that he did not rise in the expecta-
tion of being able to add anything to what had been said
by his Noble Friends near him, to prove the inexpediency
of the measure of Reform proposed by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters. But lest he should be supposed to be insensible
to the danger that this measure would bring upon the in-
stitutions of the country, or that be shrunk from the duty
of defending them, he would take the ',betty of submitting
to their Lordships his views of the nature and probable
effects of the Bill now before them. He was the rather
induced to do so, because he thought that perhaps that
might be the last opportunity which any Peer might have
of addressing the House of Lords, such as it had been
constituted by their ancestors, and in the full possession of
eli its privileges.—(The Noble Lord became wholly inau-
dible at the bar for several minutes, but his observations
were loudly cheered by the Lords around him,) If the
Bill should ever be carried into effect, it would make a total
change in the Constitution of Parliament. Ws Majesty's
Ministers had scarcely taken the reins of Government
into their bands, when they commenced a series of
attacks upon the institutions of the country.—(Land
cheers.) There must inamediate'y be a change in
every thing—nothing should escape. There must
be a change in the law, a change in. the administra-
tion of justice, and, lastly, a change in the Constitution of
Parliament, such as would make the House of Commons
the depository of the whole power of the State.—
(Loud cheers.) Never was the assent of their Lord-
'ships before required to so monstrous a measure.—
(Cheers.) They were called on to cast a stigma upon
all the legislation of their ancestors. The new modelling
of the Constitution was proposed with as little hesitation
or consideration as if it were of no more importance than
the digging of a canal or the enclosing of a piece of land.
His Majesty's Ministers came down to the House with the
Bill in one hand and the sword in the other. He confessed
that when tlnt—eonntry •-,cvs,...Lotst to Lave consti-
tution, and when his own condition and prospects, and
those of the body to which he belonged, were about to
undergo a very questionable change, he could not refrain
from asking whether there were any sufficient grounds for
that change ? The great test of the capability of a Govern-
ment was, in all countries, the management of the finances.
Those were of such importance to the prosperity and
greatneenn and even to the existence of the State, that it
had always been necessary for the Government of this
country to maintain, on that subject, the most perfect con-
fidence of Parliament. Now, what was the case with the
present Ministers of the Crown ?—(Cheers.) Not only
had they failed in engaging the confidence of Parliament,
but they had proved themselves ineepable of conducting
the financial affairs of the country —(Cheers.) It was not
merely that they had failed in seine measures of finance,
but they had actually succeeded in none.—(Cheere.) Was
it becoming then in the Ministers who could not succeed
in the adjustment of a single tax, from the duty upon
cotton to that upon timber, to lay their rash hands upon
the most important institutions of the country, and at-
tempt to make alterations, which, if they were to be
made at all, required the greatest wisdom, caution, and
abilities?—(Cheering.) He would not say anything of
those parts of the foreign affairs of the country which were
still said to be in an unsettled state. But some things re-
specting them were well known. It was well known that
his Majesty's Ministers had formed alliance with our old
enemies, and now were at variance with our old friends.
It was well known they had consented to the demolition
of those fortresses which had before been looked upon as
the keys of Europe, and had been established at an ex-
pense of many millions sterling to this eountry.—(Cheers.)
That was a result which no one would ever have looked
for as the determination of an amicable negociation. It
was rather like the result of a war, in which England had
suffered total defeat on sea and land, and her treasury bad
been exhausted of every guinea—(Cheers)—and in which
the victories of a French General had eclipsed the glories,
and robbed us of the fruits of Waterloo.—(Much cheer-
ing.) The Bill was not a measure of mere Parliamentary
Reform, but involved many other important questions. It
set oat with a proposition of his Majesty's Ministers,
which, in a time when agitation had not excluded the in-
fluence of reason upon the opinions of the people, would
be scouted by every man in the nation. The heeding pro-
position of the Bill was, that this country had never en-
joyed good Government.—(Cheers.) The Constitution
was the same now that it had been at the revolution. If
it bad undergone any alteration, it was that the people had
gained a greater influence and the Peers less. Many causes
had contributed to increase the popular influence : of these,
some of the most powerful were the publicity of the pro-
ceedings of both Houses of Parliament, and the activity of
the Press—that new and formidable Power in the State—
the firm ally of alt, popular leaders. The influence of the
people was continually on the increase, and was duly render-
ing Reform less necessary. As to the right of those to whom
it was proposed to give the franchise, he would rnle, what
right had the householder who paid a rent of 101. a year
more than the man who paid but 51. a year? As a mat-
ter of right there could be no reason for withholding the
franchise from the one and giving it to the other. With re-
spect to the evils which it was pretended the Reform Bill
would remedy, he could see only one evil from which the
country was suffering, and that was the excess of the po-
pulation in proportion to the means of employment and
subsistence.—(Hear, hear.) For theie many remedies
had been recommended, such as emigration, the cultiva-
tion of waste lands, and changes of the currency. But
what healing measure would a reformed Parliament adopt,
which could not be as honestly considered and as readily
put into operation by the present House of Commons?
Was it to be supposed that some great secret in political
science had been discovered by the philosophers of Bir-
mingham or Sheffield, by which the happiness of a nation
would be as it were miraculously promoted, and which
bad escaped the researches of all former Statesmen.
—(Cheers.). The evils from which the country suffers
were attributed to the proprietors of boroughs—persons
who might just as reasonably be held reponsible for the
badness of the weather.—(Hear,) The people were told
that they bad been plundered and impoverished by
those who were called the boroughmongers, and yet
not one argument had been advanced to show that
Reform would put a morsel of bread
into the mouths of
the people.—(Hear, hear.) Still the
wagespeople were told
that trade would be rendered flourishing—that
would' be made high, and that bread would be made cheap
by a Reformed.Parliarnente These were the results which
they were taught to expect fox:sr:the Bill. The ap. peal which
bad been made: Wattle :people, in a time ofhigh ,
citetnento.
rite very like an attempt to induce a man, In a

state of intoxication, to sign a deed to alienate his pro-
perty. He knew that those who introduced the Bill dis-
claimed the holding out of immediate advantages to the
people from the measure of Reform. But they did not
prevent their supporters from holding out such expecta-
tions. The lives and properties of their Lordships would '
be safe, if there were no Reformers amongst the people ex-
cept those who had been gained over by the logic with
which the Bill had been supported.---(Cheers.) But as
the case really stood, if the Bill was to be carried at all,
it would-be carried by the force of popular clamour and
violence, an.d nut by a conviction of its expediency in the
minds of the Legislature.—(Hears hear.) If the authors
of the Bill would forego 'the aid which they received from
all those who supported the Bill by arguments against
which they '(the Ministers) set their facer, there would be
but little anxiety about the meastra amongst the people.
One of the first effects of the Bill would be to prevent
anything like an elective Government existing in this
country. He did not mean to say that tlit:e would not
be something with the name of GoVernment.—(Hear.) ,
But there could be no Goventnent capable of adopting a''
firm course of policy, foreign or domestic. They wculd
be controuled in all their operations, and 'carried away by
every change of popular opinion.:--(The Noble Lord was
:ten understood to comr!ain of the want of deliberation
with which the measure had been prepared.) The task
which they were imposing upon themselves Was like mak-
ing brieks without straw. They we're about to undertake
e: Government without tte means of Government.
They were underttking to controul, with curtailed
and stinted .eneans, these whom it was difficult to
check by all the powers of the Constitution un-
imraired : and they expected to keep those persons
within bounds after they t3nould have put into their hands '
the power which they had long been struggling te 'obtain.
—(Cheers.) He knew that it was the theory of the Con-
.- i.n a* tfie
•Iliiertiulwh Houses of Parliament—the elective
etshe
al Ts,cr„tiai as branches of the Legis-
.henry. It was not true in
preserved. It was only because
that the balance had hitherto been maintained. It
practice. For even the present ...._
*f
eincatim...onsL,
. engaged in a struggle with the other two
overpower both.—(Hear, hear.) It was only by what
- were called the abuses et the Constitution that the.balance
of the thßreuet
the Crown coA the Aristocracy had in the House of Corn-
. moos an influence, which was unknown to the Constitu-
tion,'
would not be proper to detain their Lordships that evening
by going into the details of schedules A and 11, or of the
Bill itself, which he had always thought, since he first
saw It, had been drawn up by some gentleman on the spur
of the moment, who had not had time to make inquiry or
to consider sufficiently the tendency of his own measure.
—( Hear, hear.) As to the mode of election, he world
only ask, could any man obtain a seat under that Bill
without paying court to agreat number of people.—(Hear.)
The friends of the Bill represented the Constitution as
altogether worthless, and that no man could be honest who
defended it. Now he thought that it ought rather to he
said that the Constitution had subsisted so long, and in
such good times, that it ought not to be given up until We
should have seen what we were to get in exchange for it.—
(Cheers.) Had we not been taught that it was, above all
things, venerable and worthy of our attachment—that
it was a glorious monument of the wisdom and justice
of our ancestors—:and that its highest merit was that it
blended the interests of the three estates so harmoniously to-

gether as to give no undue preponderance to any ?
(Much cheering.) In foreign countries, we understood
the Noble Earl to say, wise and intelligent men were in
amazement at the rashness of the British Government.

Fie did not say thatlir mar Ministers, acting under the old

system, had not made great mistakes; he did not mean to
vindicate, or even to apologise, for all their measures ; but
the species of political ascendancy that had preVailed, had
produced a race of men distinguished in every department
—statesmen unrivalled in wisdom—orators unequalled in
eloquence. True it might be that there had been a great
advancement of late years in the state and scale of society ;
but the periods of Blenheim, La Hogue, Trafalgar, and
Waterloo were not likely to he exceeded in glory, at least
during the next, which might, possibly, be a Reformed
century. Their Lordships bad been told that the exercise
of their undoubted right to reject this Bill would draw
down upon them the indignation of the people; he
trusted, and he believed, that the danger, if any, had been
greatly exaggerated by the fears of some and by the cun-
ning of others, lie did not mean to deny that resistance,
under certain circumstances, was not an evil ; but he
was addressing an assembly of gentlemen and men of
honour, and he asked them wheV:er it was not better to
inept the supposed peril, than fail in the discharge of an
imperative duty ?—(Cheers.) if this Bill were passed,
would this be a period to Reform? Would it end here—
was this to be," the be all, 'and the end all hece;" or,
rooil. LP t 11..w,.l ut..rtutnas, an o

those deMandS by other changes, until the Peerage should
lie stripped naked of its privileges? The name of the
House of Lords might, indeed, be permitted to exist for
a time, but it would only be as an instrument to regis--
ter the edicts of its popular tyrants. How long, he
would inquire, would the owners of hereditary dignities
be permitted to enjoy political existence when once all the
barriers for their protection were removed ? He had no
doubt that the measure had the entire approbation of all
the pretended friends of the Constitution, who were the
di,,guised enemies of social order, and who sought with this
instrument to pull down ruin on the heads of all who had
anything to lose. He cslled upon their Lordships to make
a stand now, or to submit for ever—not to shrink befor,

the insolent and domineering spirit of the times, and to
resist this first and great encroachment upon their indis-
putable rights. Ever► if it should turn out that the re-
jection of the Bill was wrong, another pea❑ of Reform
might he introduced hereafter; but once pass the measure
upon the table, and ruin was inevitable.—(Cheers.) He
admitted that some change in the sta.e of the representa-
tion was necessary—every reasonable man was of that
opinion ; but the question was, whether thin sweeping
change should be adopted, forced upon the House in a
moment of excitement and intoxication, without the chance
of appeal to a calmer period and a more rational spirit.--
(Hear, hear.) The most earnest friends of Reform knew
well the feelings that at present animated the people—they
dread the period when that people should awake from their
feverish dream, and should return to their old habits of
thinking and former good sen,e. They knew that an op-
portunity like the present might never return, and that if
the Constitution were not now destroyed, it bid fair to be
eternal.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I can assure your
Lordships, that had I been permitted to address you last
night, previous to the adjournment, I should not have
occupied your attention long, but the delay has given me
the opportunity of hearing, lam sorry to say, very im-
perfectly, the eloquent speech of the Noble Earl who has
just concluded. As he has addressed himself to the prin-
ciple of this measure, although he preceded those retrial Irs
by observations that bore but slightly upon it, I shall,
before I vindicate the part I have taken in regard to this
Bill, advert briefly to a portion of what fell from the
Noble Earl. I will not follow him in his excursive range
through the foreign policy and through the domestic and
financial adMinistration of the affairs of this country by
the present Government; but at the same time I cannot
allow him to rest any part of his opposition to the mea-
sure beibre the House on the ground of failure in our un-
dertakings, whether they relate to the concerns of the na-
tion at home or abroad, without enlightening him as to
the errors be bas committed. If be have been an at-
tending, 1 presume that be has not been a listening Me►n-
her of this House—(Cheers and laughter)—for if he had
both listened and attended, he would have known that
various important measures were brought forward, which
his friends did not venture to resist—great changes in the
law, upon which no division was hazarded.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of DUDLEY said that he had applied his ob-
servations only to the measures of finance of the present

Ministers.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I understood the Noble
Earl to speak of the whole system of measures, the object
of which was to overthrow all that our ancestors had esta-
blished. Why, let me ask, did the Noble Earl suffer the
Bankruptcy Bill to go down to the Commons without one
word of warning?—(Cheers.) Why did he not oppose
the Lunatic BPI, and if he thought it so fatal, press it to a
division ?—(Cheers and laughter.)
The Earl of DUDLEY repeated that he had confined
himself to financial measures.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—SureIy the Noble Eirl
will not deny that he charged the present Ministers with
having attempted to change all that the wisdom of our
forefathers had established.

The Earl of DUDLEY—Undoubtedly.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—And surely he will
not deny also, that in the midst of these tremendous, and,
as he thinks, fatal changes, he has preeerved- a constant
silence, and witnessed without remonstrance the ruin of the
Constitution.—(Much cheering and laughter.) If, there-
fore, he has been right in his argument he has been wrong
in his conduct, fur the measures to which I have alluded
were passed unanimously, and we never once had the
benefit of the light which it seems had broken in upon
him. But he tells us that be referred particularly to
measures of finance, and be asserts that all the plane of the
present -Government' have failed. Let me ask whether
he was present when the Bill regarding the, coal duties
was passed ?—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) Was
hi —Present_ when the Bill altering the wine duties was

' passed?—(Cheers.) Was he present when the Bill alter- •
ing the whole system of the cotton trade was passed?—
(Cheers.) Does he know that that financial measure, which
lie asserta has failed, has met with the universal approbation
of the trade, and that it has revivified the commerce o'f Man-
chester and the North of Ireland ti.as-(Cheers.) Are these
measures which have so failed as to entitle the Noble Earl,
however preposterous it may appear, to found Upon them
his resistance to the Bill of Reform.s--(Hear, hear.) the
Noble Earl asserts that some measures are good for taeeping,
and lam sure he has as good reesoli for saying that some
speeches are good 'fat. keeping—(Cheers and laughter)—
only, perhaps, in this instance he has kept his speech too
long, since it ought to have been delivered when the Pills
I have mentioned were under the consideraticai of the
House.—(Hear hear.) row, however, we are enligh-
tened by the easplanation of the Noble Earl ; has de-
livered one speech upon all the Bills ; he has reserved
himself for this occasion, and when measures have been
adopted by the Houle unanimously, and have accomplished
every °Nett for which they were intended, he breaks the
awful silence he has observed, and in a tone little short of
oractear, pronounces them decided and melancholy failtires.
(Much cheering and laughter from all sides.) But he
has not salt in argument alone, for he has indulged in a
vein of wit which I shall endeavour to deprecate no more
than by saying that his wit was of a piece with his argu-
ment ; he has talked of the new discovery of the necessity
of a philosopher to represent the large towns of Birming-
ham and Manchester ; but if my memory does not en-
tirely forsake me, within this very year I heard the Noble
Earl himself maintain the necessity of creating such phi-
losophers, and I saw him deeply engaged in the generation
of one after his own heart, when he insisted upon the fit-
ness of transferring the franchise from East Retford to
Birmingham. On this occasion, however, he terms it
nothing less than ridiculous, to suppose that the inhabi-
tantsof such a place as Birmingham are capable of
choosing a philosopher for themselves, whom they know
and can trust, in preference to the silent sage whom the
• -I,e oi ?ru es
Noble Earl would select for them.—(Cheers.) He after.
a''''"' etaiall--LiTe ,to niveat apprehension that
as
persons of weight and talent irs moments
ment will be excluded from Parliament. He bay
states that times may arrive when men of the greater
claims, and parties of the highest merit, may he
unpopular, but his illustration of this point was not a
little singular, and as unfortunate as it was singular. The
Noble Eirl, I know, is a most accurate historian—in this
respect he is excelled, perhaps, by no Peer in the Reese_..
but lie seems not to have brought his historical research
down to a period sufficiently recent. He talked of the
coalition of 1782, which he contended was a great teal
more unpopular than that of the Anti-Reformers mw ;
and he told us that in consequence of that unpopubrity
Mr. Fox was excluded from the representation of Wst-
minster. Now the fact, unluckily for the Noble Earl is
that Mr. Fox was re-elected for the populous city of llSst-
minster—a fact that sheaved that even in times of 'he
greatest excitement there was still such a thing as natiotal
gratitude.—(Cheers.) I will now take the liberty of Li-
vening to what more particularly applies to the Bill upon
the table, and to the allegation of the Noble Earl win
spoke so ably last night (Harrowby)—unfounded I mist
call it—that Ministers entertained a deliberate design to
overthrow the Constitution and to destroy the sacred esta-
blishments of our ancestors. I shall also notice sone
points that occurred at a later period in the debate, aid
especially such arguments as are opposed to the princisle
of the measure. I say advisedly " such arguments as are
opposed to the principle of the measure," because most of
what has been said on the opposite benches has been in
favour of the principle instead of against it. After listen-
ing last night with the greatest attention to the Nenle
Earl who preceded me in the office I have the honour to
hold, I confess I could not understand how he brauilit
himself to vote in opposition to the measure. He tsld
is, indeed, that he had exerted all his ingenuity to
find arguments in its favour, but the whole tendency of
his speech showed rather a desire to discover reasons
for a contrary course. The Nob'e Earl told us of the ca-
pital speech that could be made out of the writings
and harangues of those who formerly had advocated
and now resisted Reform ; so I say that I could select in-
controvertible grounds for passing this Bill from the ar-
guments, omissions, concessions, and, if I may be par-
doned the word, inconsistencies of those who are arrayed
on the benches opposite.—(Cheers.) Not one of. those
Noble Lords who have contended against the alteration
of the law in consequence of the change in public opinion,
who has not illustrated in his own person the effect of that
change.—(Hear, hear.) One and all in different degrees
inconsistently with each other, showing not only no eon-

cert, but the impossibility of concert, I;ve exhibited proofs
of that change in their opinions, and have tidzz...;=--L ....
with toe present strong of door.,
it would not be statesmanlike nor safe, I do not say to re-
sist unlimited concession, but to disregard the progress of
national sentiment.—( Cheers.) In arguing this question,
I labour under the difficulty—if difficulty it can he called
—of agreeing with the Noble Earl (11 irrowhy) in al-
most all his premises. There is no opinion to which I
hold more strongly than that all change is an evil in itself,
more especially in a state of society complicated and civi-
lized as our own. lam bound also to admit that the con-
dition of no society can be secure in which property does
not exercise, if not a commanding preponderance, a very
great influence.—(Cheers.) I admit also that long-exist-
ing relations between man and man, between the governor
and the governed, are much more easily maintained than
even more perfect relations if they are new. But admit-
ting these principles, there is one inference from them
that I absolutely deny, viz.—that it has been the charac-
ter of the institutions and Constitution of this country to

oppose a rigid and stubborn resistance to all modifica-
tions dictated by changes in the times. I have
read the history of our institutions differently—l look
to the Statute-book, and I ask myself what were the
laws attendant upon that great change of opinion—the
It-formation 2—(Cheers.) What were the laws to regulate
and defend the prerogative of the Crown under the unfor-
tunate House of Stuart?—(Cheers.) What were the
laws to secure the succession to the throne to the House of

Hanover ?—(Cheers.) What were the laws which at-
tended the Union of Scotland with England ?—(Cheers.)
Much more—What were the laws establishing the Union
with Ireland ? and though last, not least, what was the
effect of that change, inferior to none that preceded it
either in force or violence, recently introduced by the
Noble Duke himself, by which three-fifths of the voters
of Ireland were disfranchised ?—(Continued cheers from
all sides of the House.) What are these, my Lords, but
so many instances in which tle institutions of the country,
for their own benefit and for strengthening the bases on
which they repose, have been made to bend to circum-
stances of political expediency, and by that expediency
alone could be justified ?—(Cheers.) The character and
the main feature of our institutions has been to assort and
to gather round them the whole strength of opinion and
the whole power of property ; in other words, all that
firmness that is to be derived from wealth and know.
ledge—of wealth expanded and knowledge diffused. lam
therefore agreed in principle, if not in application, with
the Noble Duke, who adverted to some expression that
fell from me on a former occasion, but who used the
word "learning" instead of the more appropriate term
" knowledge," which I bad employed. I had no refe-
rence, I need hardly say, to mere academical acqui,itions,
hut to that widely spread information which renders men
competent to judge of their own interests.—(Cheers.)
That _ spirit of accommodation to circumstances is the
real character of our institutions ; and if it had not that
virtue in it, as your Lordships will find on looking to
the long series of laws I have noticed, the British
Constitution, instead of descending to us from our an-
cestors in all its power and magnificence, would have
been abandoned as a wreck, and have been left as
a monument and a warning upon the shore. I shall
now address myself to some of the observations of
the Noble Duke who spoke last yesterday. I beard,
with some astonishment, the remarks he made upon that
' which, with the most sincere respect, I must still call his
unfortunate declaration on the subject of Reform.—(Hear.)
I understood the explanation of the Noble Duke to be this
—that he then spoke as a Minister, and not as a man ;
and that whatever might be his opinion as an individual,
as the King's Minister he was bound to declare against
Reform, and to recommend Parliament not to interfere.
From what I recollect of the Noble Duke's conduct on
other occasions, I should have expected that he would not
only have been the last to draw such a distinction, but the
first to adopt a course the very reverse. When I heard

the Noble Duke make that declaration, I thought I had his
high and venerable authority iR support of the line I am
myself taking ; because, until now, I have never advocated
the cause of Reform in Parliament. I confess, freely,
that no public clamour has ever induced me to hazard an
opinion I have not maturely weighed. I confess, freely,
without being blind to the abuses of the time, or to the
circumstances that called for a review of our representative
system, that I always thought it more safe that any change
should come recommended by the Ministers of the Crown,
inasmuch as concession would then be, to a certain degree,
limited, and parties would know exactly how far the altera-
tion would extend. That is the ground. on which I felt my-
selfjustiGed in supporting this plan of Reform; and I thought
that I had the example of the Noble Duke in my favour; for
what did he say on the Roman Catholic question ? He told
us that he had refrained from acting on the subject, because

be was not the King's Minister, and that he had always I
told Lord Castlereagh that a measure ef concession to
the Roman Catholics ought, in the first instance, to be
proposed by the servants of the Crown. His opinion,
however, as to the mode in which Parliamentary Reform
ought to be brought forward seems entirely different—foe
now the Noble Duke insists that to aid in the purification
of the House of Commons is the only thing that a King's
Minister ought not to do.—(Hear.) But I will pursue
that topic no further; it is enough for me to find the
Noble Duke himself at length in the ranks of those who
maintain the fitness of some species, and a certain extent
of Reform. All who have spoken against the Pill, with
the exception of a Noble Feel who delivered his opinion on
the first night, hive admitted the necessity of a change—
sometimes with great caution—sometimes with more
sometimesboldness—sometimeswitha v
witlliiai disposition
step
back—(Hearitiontstep
forward—
andand
laughter)—but at all events we have the satisfaction of
knowing that they all admit there war some reason foe
moving, inasmuch as they could not exactly see how they
were to stand whete they were.—(Much cheering.) I
say, however, that if there is—that is, a plan of Reform
which exists in their minds, whatever may be its shape
and substance,
" If shape it might be called that shape had none,
Or substance might be called that shadow seem'd,"
—(Cheers.) I say, if there is that pl en of Reform that
exists in the recesses of their own minds, or in the secrets
of their own councils, that has something of a shape and
body, the people of England have a right to complain that
six months have elapsed since this question has been openly
agitated in Parliament, and they have yet to learn what
is the nostrum—(Cheers)--which is to be the antidote to
the baleful effects of the system we reconnuend.—(Hear,
hear, from the Marquis of LONDONDERRY.) I should be
glad if the Noble Marquis who gives me that cheer would
tell me what Lis their plan ; and perhaps he will do so
at the first opportunity, and make me acquainted with
the plan, framed, no doubt, with all that wisdom of de-
liberation which must be expected to characterzs it.—
(Hear, hear.) However, to resume.. I say, my Lo-ds,
'hat the people of England have a right to complain that
if the Nome opposite possess any plan of Reform,
they have so long delayed its production, though during
the time I have mentioned the necessity of Reform has
been disputed. A measure of Reform has been introduced
into the other House—the Parliament has been dissolved
upon the question—the measure has again been intro-
duced—this Bill has been passed by that House—and
we are now et this advanced stage of it without the
people of England knowing what it is, if this Bill
should be rejected, that they will have to Tool: to,
and in what is to consist their safety, if not in the
measure which we have proposed.—(Loudcheers.) All
that we can collect freen the statement of the Not I:
Lords opposite is, that they have made some signs o!
progress, and that there are certain possible Reform,
which, under certain circumstances, they may produce; but
in a knowledge of which as yet neither the Parliament
nor the people have been permitted to participate. So
that no sooner have we (not sooner than was necessary)
embarked on this voyage, not unconscious of the perils
and dangers with which it is attended, but not before the
moment when these perils and dangers were daily increas-
ing by the delay—l say, that no sooner have we, urged by
a sense of duty; embarked on this voyage, than it turns out
that almost all the Noble Lords opposite have dropped
down to St. Helen's, and are lying at single anchor ready
to join in such a voyage—should it be deemed expedient.
—(Cheers and laughter.) I must say, my Lords, that
when it is imputed that all of us, and particularly my
Noble Friend near me (Earl Grey), hive been acting the
parts of impostors and enspirics, and have been dealing out
noxious wares to tl:e people, it is rather hard of those who
think they have the proper prescriptions—that they are the
real state physicians_(Cheers)—tiat admitting as they
do the existence ef the disorder, and asserting that they
are acquainted with a wholesome remedy, they should all
have left us to look out to find what that remedy is,and should
leave the people of England to betake themselves, in spite
of themselves, to the quackery of my Noble Friend, because
they could not get a letter cure for the evils from which
they are suffering.—(Cheers.) For myself, I can hardly
think that they are se well agreed on the remedy as
they would have us believe.—(Bear.) There has been a
great evidence of disagreement among the Noble Lords
opposite, as far as we can know anything of the matter.
There has been evidently a great desire to find
.out some-
thing of a proposal on which they could agree. Every
one of them seems now ready to make some concession.
The Noble Earl opposite, whom I ought to except from
the charge of having offered us nothing instead of our
own plan—the Noble Earl opposite has gone se far—
' bas been so much snfles,!:,l4.l)J4ktaege,sai&oLthecire—ase.
:ornr77;wer,roposing to do something about bribery.—
(Hear.) [The Earl of MANSFIELD intimated a negative.]
I am sure 1 am very sorry ,to have committed the Noble
Earl so far, as to have hastily betrayed him into an admis-
sion which it now seems be did not make, that bribery
was inexpedient.—(Cheers and laughter.) I beg his
pardon for having done so. I now perfectly understand
that he means to do nothing.—(Hear.) I shall not
commit the same error with respect to other Noble Lords,
for I know them all to be entirely of a different opinion
from myself on the subject of Reform ; but I know also
that in these opinione they all differ from each other.—
(Hear.) The Noble Baron who commenced this debate
with that frankness, openness, and honourable candour,
which belongs to him, said, he was prepared to concede the
whole question of Scotch Reform; but the words were
scarcely out of his mouth when the Noble Duke, who
spoke last night, travelled to that part of the empire in
the discussion, in order to state his opinion that Scotland
did not want Reform ; for that it presented the picture of
a perfect state of society.—(llear.) [The Duke of WEI.,
LINGTON leant across and said—" No such thing."] I beg
the Noble Duke's pardon if I have mistaken him, but 1
certainly understood him to say so.—(Hear, hear.) He
certainly did say that Scotland was the best governed
country, and in that expression of best governed, 1 thought
he meant to include the state of the representation.—
(Hefts.) He said that Scotland was a most prosperous
country, and he connected its prosperity with its Govern-
ment.—(flear.) All I can say is, that as to the prosperity
of Scotland I perfectly concur with the Noble Duke. There
is no person who has had an opportunity of witnessing the
condition of that country, who is not aware that Scotland
presents a most striking specimen of glorious civi-
lization.—(Cheers.) We all know that it has its Edin-
burgh—the centre of science and civilization—that it has
its Glasgow, which has covered the Clyde with its steam-
boats and studded the Atlantic with its ships-..[Lord EL-
LENEOROUGII here made some interruption.] The Noble
Baron is desirous of supporting his Noble Friend on the
subject of our financial arrangements. I might say some-
thing of theirs, but I will not.-(Hear.) I repeat, then,
that Glasgow has spread its commercial relations to the
remotest end of the world; but who is the man that will
tell me gravely that this is the consequence of dues and
superiorities.—(Hear, hear.) The only superiority I can
discover as the cluse of Scotland's prosperity is the supe-
riority of education, of unrepresented education—that su-
periority which it is the object of this Bill to introduce
into the Legislature, which is excluded at this moment by
the present system—that superiority which my Noble
Friend wishes to preserve. It is part of the object of the
present Bill to include in the representation the advantage
of knowledge as well as power.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Duke has, in the speech which he has addressed to
your Lordships, expressed his alarm at the effects of this
popular representation when extended to other places be-
side those which now possess it, and lie states particular
o thef
great o f the
abusesevils,
and o rmischiefs what h
o:ecfcoitpntitncohpenwainsvtalesesortf
there
to e
representation,
entatiinstanceson
as it exists under the present system. He has selected as
nces
iD,,inbusutbsael
lofltittuh[iss,el mnwolsacsthloimuefbisstt,tahkeetrneul eoLrtiev
theea rpeo
No l
oabtli
greated
s.
Earl, but the Noble Duke who cited these instances. The
Noble Duke will not, however, think it a bad compli-
ment to him that I have attributed to him what fell from
the Noble Earl.—(The Duke of Wellington bowed.) It was
an unfortunate selection, for what is the case as regards
these two places ? It so happens that we have the most
authentic information of the evils produced in Liverpool
and Dublin, for both were the subjects of inquiry last
year; and what was the result of these inquiries? They
proved that all the bribery and corruption attached to the
thisf
"f
ileouthe
Bill
of D
%,efonodouvulin and
away
)n o right
gurh
thto Liverpool,vaontde for
w on rott hohteotn i
representatives,
etpht
reei
householders,e the
nta t
vbejt
se b uo
t
to whom
.it is
repre-
sentation of Liverpool,eespposeTeidnitilhelytorast
beextfrinudndthtoatberigtilliet.e—ne(eHweiatri,,
orneepre-
iof
hear.) This will
respect to Liverpeed,
ihsassolmmeenth isneglecitned tahse
oincreasingattentionrespectable
t l e
can
numberafnt
these instances, to defer you from increasing the hazard by
thatotni rremarkable
wishan naeatrolk
arl callgtblhlieet
householders
isleuhoyoof(!duve
eero.rt
Lordships
voters,
It so
st
excludedshooi
p whichia
appme
nflorss
circumstance connected 'with that town. Out of 2,400
who are, as householders, capable of sitting on juries,
there are only eighty Who are voters for Liverpool.—
(Hear, hear.) Mr. Roscoe, who established himself
among the fiat of the merchants of Liverpool, and who is
so highly distinguished in every honourable way, had not a
vote for Liverpool.—(Hear, hear.) All his sons who were
established there
_were without votes for the town, bLt

their gardener%ad a vote.—(Hear, hear.) And then I am
told that the instance of that town is an argument against
creating a popular right of election, such as is proposed in
this Bill, because such persons as the gardener of Mr. Roscoe
were guilty of corrupt practice, though this Bill would
tale from bins the means of repeating his off,nce, while
it would give the right of voting to men like Mr. Roscoe,
who are above the suspicion of bribery.—(Hear, hear.) I
must now return to the speech of the Noble Lord opposite,
which I must again characterise as a most admirable
speech. In stating his objections to the Bill, and the
apprehensions he entertained with respect to in he has
called lour Loll-hips' attention to the conjectural conse
quences of it, for which he has, blamed the Noble Earl
who introduced it. He has stated as one of his grounds
of apprehension, that immediately after this Bill had been
passed the new constituency would have an ascendency,
which they would use for the purpose of putting ,an end
to taxation at--d to the payttient of the interest on the 'l'4'l-
tional Debt. I wish that the Noble Earl, before he said
this, would have taken the trouble to consider who are
those 101. householders that are to obtain a vote by this
Bill. I have now in my hand a paper illustrative of the
great diffusion of wealth in this country—it is a subject
that has before been alluded to, and I am glad that the
Noble Earl has again alluded to it ; for his so doing has
given me an opportunity of stating the contents of this
paper. It is a detail of the number of accounts kept
at the B ink of England for dividends upon stock ; and
out of 274,823 accounts of that kind, there are no less
than 264,668 kept with persons for suths less than 2001.
per annum.—(Hear, hear.) I beg to ask the Noble Eail
whether there is not a degree of probability alm .st
amounting to certainty, that these persons comprise a
great portion of thet constituency of 10/. Lou-60141,es
that will be created by the Bill? And then what be-
comes of the apprehensions of my Noble Friend.—(Hear,
hear.) Does he suppose that these persons, in preparing
to issue their peremptory mandates and instructions to
their representatives in Parliament, will say, " You may
do what you please on matters that come before you, but,
above all, take care that our dividends are not paid."—
(Hear, hear.)—To issue such instructions to their repte
sentatives would exhibit the same degree of wisdom as it
the Noble Earl were to say to his bailiff, " You may do
what you will with my estate in other respects; but,
above all things, take care that no rents are paid.''--
( Hear, and a laugh.) But then comes another appre-
hension with regard to that wealth, stated by the Noble
Duke. He takes, from the circumstance of the 10/. rnt
being fixed as the standard of voting, a deduction that al!
the people to whom votes are to be given are of one class
in lite, and will, therefore, he more accessible to bribery.
When he stated that, he must have forgotten that the
clause which allows 10/. householders to vote in-
cludes not only those who pay that annual rent for
their houses, but all those who pay above that stun.
That apparent uniformity, therefore, including every-
thing from 101. to 10,0001. is, indeed, a real inequa-
lity, so far as the quantity of rent is concerned, and fur-
niehes no ground for the Nuble Duke's assertion that such
a class of men would be more accessible to bribery
(The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had asserted they
would be more likely to enter into combinations.) There
will be no greater facility for combinations among them after
this Bill has been passed, than at the present moment.
Besides, I have the satisfaction to he able to tell him that
there will be more voters who pay 201. a year and upwards
rent, than who pay only 10/., in those towns where such
a rent will confer the elective franchise.—(Bear, hear- )
But the Noble Duke, in stating his apprehensions on this
subject, and in referring to what he describes as the his
tory of the rise of this demand for Reform, has stated
that the whole, or the greater part of it, proceeded front
the events that took place in France, in July. 1830. I
beg to say that I distinctly dispute that fut.—(Heas.,
hear.) To referring to the whole history of this country,
I should say that it has been growing for years p
(Some NOBLE Loan said, " From the time of the Ame-
rican war.") From the time of the American war ! No,
it existed long before that period, though fifty years would
be a period long enough for an opinion of this kind to ac-
quire overwhelming strength in this country; but it is in
the nature of things that such opinions should not proceed
regularly, and with uniform progress; it is in the nature
of things that the demands for these great changes should
be at first slow, uncertain, and irregular, but that
it should be progressive. Lord Bacon has laid down
the rule, that things move towards their places with
irregularity, but they are regular when they get into
them.—(Hear, hear.) That which your a tention, as
Statesmen, ought to be called to, is the fact of the exis-
tence of such an opinion—an opinion that has not, indeed,
been uniform in its progress, but has manifested itself at
different times, and has furnished mater of discontent in
soot onsoseee s nuts esocioss Yoe-- date that thew, 4—, -
produced the danger, it is the same as if you should say
that the danger existed not in the train of gunpowder that
had been forming for years, but in the match that acci-
dentally produced its explosion.—(Cheers.) Where such
a mass of discontent exists, it is liable to be excited by
operations abroad, or agitated by distress at home, or
stimulated into action by accidental circutnstauces in the
revolution of time ; and there can be no ultimate safety if
you do not attempt to cure the evil, which otherwise will
most threaten with its dangers when you are least aware
of its existence, and least ready to act against them.—
( Hear.) I will not detain your Lordships further on this
subject. The real principles of this Bill are principles to
which every Noble Lord opposite has more or less given
his implied assent. The principles of this Bill (for I ab-
stain from going into its details, though it haw been the
policy of this discussion on the other side of the House to
direct your Lordships' attention rather to the details than
to the principles), which have been irnpliedly assented to,
are the extinction of nomiriation boroughs, the extension
of political influence to the middle classes of the com-
munity, and the extension of the right of election in
counties to every description of landholders--a right which
has hitherto been confined to particular classes among
them. These are the principles of the Bill, all the
rest are details, which will be subject to your consideration,
and to which 1 say I wish, as well as my Noble Friend,
you should exercise your undoubted and unquestioned pri-
vilege of giving your attention.—(Cheers.) If, for an in-
stant, I could suppose that he wished to debar you, if debar
you he could, from doing so, i must say, with the greatest
respect for my Noble Friend, I should, without hesitation,
first in private and then in public, express my difference
of opinion ; for although lam anxious that you should not '
consider as your privileges any pa, t of the corruptions of
the Constitution, I shoull be ready and determined, as
any man in this House, to contend for and preserve those
legal and constitutional privileges, whenever and however
they may be objected to—privileges which you have de-
rived from your ancestors, and one of the most undoubted
of which is the right of calmly deliberating and determin-
ing upon every possible measure which is sent to you from
the other House of Parliament.—(Hear.) This conducts
me to the last topic with which I shall trouble your Lord-
ships, which though the last is not the least in importance,
because in this place it is peculiarly applicable. Among
objections to this measure it has been stated that if car-
ried it will affect the future existence of your Lord-
ships' House. As I see that proposition has met with
attention, I shall, on that account, beg to pause a few
instants upon it. Notwithstanding the assumption of
my Noble Friend opposite who, began the adjourned
debate, and that of others, that the future fortunes
and rank of the Members of this House will he placed
in jeopardy if this Bill is passed, they have shown
us nothing to justify the belief that your constitutional
and legal privileges will be endangered—that those pri-
vileges which I may say every historical author has de-
scribed and admired, which the public have always sup-
ported, will not remain in the same vigour as before. That
of which you will be deprived, if deprived of anything,
will be only a corrupt share in the abuses of the other
branch of the Legislature.—(Ctieers.) I know it has
been asked, and the question has been often repeated,
what will, what can the House do if it conies into direct
collision with public opinion? I answer, that it need not
fear if it stands upon that constitutional ground which
public opinion has claimed for it, in which is its strength,
rather than in any illegal influence that may possibly be
exerted by it or any of its Members in any case you may
suppose.—( Hear, hear.) It is necessary for the support
of the hypothesis of danger, that you should suppose a case
in which public opinion shall be opposed to that which
your Lordships may deem public policy. Let the ask, if
you are unable to support and justify as sound and honest
the opinion which, in the constitutional discharge of your
duty, and if you are unsafe in the place which is the
.itadel of your strength, of your constitutional strength,
you can possibly hope to be safe in the unconstitutional
and flimsy out-works of Gatton and Old Sarum ?
(Cheers.) Do you believe that the public would not ste
through, that they have not seen through, the pretence on
which such places are represented, as your true Supports,
and that your influence there would fail even in a good
cause, but would be most utterly useless in a bad one.
—(il
which lives in the hearts and feelings of the people of this
country, your influence would be, as it ought, respected
eainrllu hear)—while,encwhich if you resort to that constitu-
tionalbelieve the people respect, and
and deferred to? For these reasons it. was that I never
heard the Noble Duke with greater pleasure than when he
treated with contempt the assertions that there had been
ebullitions of popular discontent against your constitu-
tional influence. I say that the people are not against the

o urejit
constitutional privileges you possess,
th..se which you cannot enjoy but by a direct ?/B,leof,
the liw.—( Hear, hear.) Those. are not the plan:Veep
the system that I would recommend ; that is not
CO''it.tret
racter of the system which I should wish to see ;tit
I hope, by acting on the ptinciples I have state! ,41
enabled to transmit to my posterity those honours uw•abli,
have teceived alike, I trust, for the benefit of the
as fur myself, and which I have derived from 01Ya:t for
bat are PP joit
tors on whom they were conferred, as I belie!, ;wol
their own advantage in particular, but for thet!oiost
well-being of the State. I hive no further ob'et ;ad
that I wish, after having almost exhausted the piLe opor
the House, to trouble you with. I hope it will 'O,O
cessary for me to add that I wish that yaur demtitboo
not be influenced by public clamour. I hope rhcou Wtd
will not be used; or if they should be, thate#o9itlet
notice them only with disdain ; but that' in t"heth°'3,l
Lion of thilS qnestion; you wift riot eer!ooll
ebto
siderations of real danger ; that )00 will nljebone
adopt this measure because it is connected n'it
."-sjor
in society which none of you can deny t° be polisf
tarand which, indeed, it has lit en part of youfto ra
t produce. I say it has been part of your POifYI ,
duce these changes, because, by a course of nseleoof oej
tion you have favoured the spread of knovriedged eel
the population ; you bare difhised science ati,4oe
among the large towns—von have created new uujoe
men, to whom I now hesee.ili you not to refuse Ptrbey
aA
of real value—(Cheers)—privilegea which, if oon°
Eac,lislimen, they must wish for as belonging to
13; do 4
of society in which they exist. Do net believe 04
having developed this course of policy, after boringo 0
s/
Ls/
the surface of the land with new streams "f wealth
ca
iatelligenre, they can all be made to bow Tvithira 000
narrow claonels as h:retufere.—(Cheers.) I ~e„Pcolede,l
to adopt a reel chance of principles,
h ,ving thus endeavoured to diffuse induattY,
and wealth, and intelligence over the land, .1
Pil"oet w
p you have begun, and to incorporate for ev!,...00.14
vintages you have created with the former r° as
your country.—(The Noble ALtrqu!s sat doe"
'OO
ou'l and continued rheerine.) suP
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he w t,ie
to claim their Lordships' attention at that Ainbeeollit
consequence of the personal attack which ha" which,"
uaon him by the Noble Marquis—an attack lit f
was much surprised, as lee was not conscious 1)... d
any
ever given the Noble Marquis any persona' °drat
-
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE begged tn.., alTe,i-eg
intention of offering the Noble Marquis anY ;I' deid-;
The Alarquis of LONDONDERRY, 91
himself perfectly satisfied with the Noble ..-tarthilti:a sbible
planation, proceeded to say, that he did n°6eat
Noble Marquis had answered one single Ontiobleir
many which had been so ably urged bYtJlobl/.-6;
near him, on the preceding evenimt s'••• is 7 ors
,7,14 b
quis had launched forth into I'. • ip
that cee.amatin
so highly excelled ; but he would tell the V°,4o,ai,le
what was the difference between his deelainri:ithell"
arguments of the Noble Earl. The speech ;00-
Earl had
tarn the Reform Bill •
to piece', d for
Marquis
with all his great power .od*.
had not been able to re-establish it in any s'11":
himself, he considered that the Bill was un)esibrirfts4
tutional, and unprincipled; and he would tell4l 60,
ships why. He considered it was unjust, benr,;lol;6o4
large classes of the people of their vested rts it
but to folloviroook
sAered that it was unconstitutional, becange.:olso
all the great institutions of the country;
tM
dered it unprincipled, because if Noble Loiter/
to wheat took place in another House they irnului,e-
fGovernment bad departed, in the progress of oral
Front every principle on which they set forvinfOATti
shifted their ground in all ways which they tlfiri
to keep them in power. He also accused the ;11.:1111
partiality in the details of the Bill ; and beg,eo4
lady to call their Lordships' attention to the
utoio
counties of Durham, Northumberland, and CLrot !,ge
There was another point, in reference to that P
North in which lie had some interest, towhisPir
fe bej
quence of the absence of his Noble Friend (Pd.,. 0701
felt some difficulty in adverting; but he 4
upon the subjtct, hat lie could not pass it nver
in silence. lie alluded to the case -
of the Oise;
Dothan), and wished their Lordships to °WS%
treme hardship which had been there inflicted or;
body of men. He did not believe the Belo:Vet:bog!
he satisfied with this Bill, extensive as um' ti.hel .09;0
would effect. The Noble Earl must feel tu,s' Or/
suffrage and the vote by ballot were behind '4
they would inevitably follow.
Earl GREY—No. nu

001'
Y inaintallisoy

The Marquis of LONDONDERR - Earl. b• 11(
withstanding the disclaimer of the Noble 'of
I=ol3le-would not be satisfied witn tuts 10'
f 'rulers Navin. estabbshed ,he first parallel,
be satisfied until they had carried the Plat.Jteri
Irishman, he flt most-strongly respecting treiss:lilet
evils which must ensue from the measure. 'lr I
rected as it unfortunately was, hy a single (fag:s
not be content with the Reform Bill. It wen! to sep
regarded as a step towards a repeal of the V°l,° peg
was pet fectly well persuaded that if tie
inntatnhaCtatlciooluicnst,rya,ndansod 13i1 to tiff?
would have the effect of delivering up Ireland t Odd
hear.) As neatly as hdetelsicetortioPyldiin.ogi
the numbers and di-positions of the 101. voters Seri
there would be seventy-two Members of rhehe
Commons, out of the. Members allowed by ta.eie,
rangement, hostile to Protestants interest $a referj
testant Church, and eager to promote $ ted
the Union.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He Pre°
1$
the recent elevations to their Lordships' 110"5e.,,,s Ord
sense unconstitutional. He considered it unk,boorol
pr,,per, and unconstitutional, that any WWI tledli
allowed an opportunity of giving two votes tebh,
question in mffe;ent places. He hoped the pl°,l,oos
the head of Government would yet return to ,1-04
sentiments he had once expressed—that be °ol
his pledge by standing by his order ; that, throdleoctLi
would adopt that line of policy which W°ll,/,1,10010:04'
He also hoped that no further attempts
uestditg'aeenit'ffrCEuriceasibnic.:(los:i
country through its dangers, and that he Weon`Vt
measure which he ought never to have brOtigl, Ord
wOUld I; Ord
use the Sovereign's name to promote a niessnronti 'fl
tive of the Constitution. It was most ivoriffecelp4
indecorous to lay together the name of the lie fro),
the sovereignty of the people.—(Hear.) I) lir,
against it as most unconstitutional. He like' tlieppr,
against the style and nature of the appeal Did tbetlf,
Earl had made to the Right Rev. Bench. vAi seardV
Earl dare to suppose that the Right Revere" 7,501
not guided and actuated by feelings of bonotirwhi
It was a most unconstitutional proceeding. „socks
any Peer doubt that the courage, and erw'.l- Of/
honour of that Right Reverend Bench were et
enduring as his own ?—( Hear.) He would ° fir,/
their Lordships with any farther observatis°s:o;
glad that he had risen to declare his intentioo
this B;11, and be was happy in being able tAed,_.rhe J°l
humble prayer to the Noble Earl at the bea7 07:71,141
,vaenrLlne(mn.mdeonnGtieotnoptE.rtconsider the subject under d''?
pause before he farther attempted to urge their I'lo
to a step which could not be recalled...--(ocer: cooefriell
a tcEna
cha ii%dvasLlooruddllyl:TilnettroGs,, his
and neither appeared disposed to give will' ea ,
The Marquis of CLEVELAND then WI
nfdeoientiTgi
tnitoigoe nsoDufbffue:trihei
Noble
Goderich be heard.
e
1
Another NOBLE LORD moved that the el
Colleague,d.
IrdOsNopD then roser anijore'-irLVIIII
Noble
hiollt?vas
fusion, and explained that he wished to sill tofreogb.
question. On obtaining a hearing, be 1W ,t thef tp
for
ra
this
cession from that side of the House, while ti
been beard in defence of the Bill. obserlint)
Lord HADDINGTON said he bad 500:', Ole ble
r
to make in answer to the Noble Mare;ois ken of E,s
and thought the Noble Lord might have olle poke ?Pr
He would, however, in answer to the 1146.,b porii
Three
e e Minister
Peers
i atdhl apposite,
rid;
gcou:th:a.:a. ler: be
'OO °r'
ode
o I:4;1
JJ
peal, give way to the Noble Viscount Wl` y
sure.—(Hear, hear.) be ,
already had the misfortune to rise twice during_
tonoo4
at the same time with Noble Friends of his, to
ut ael,
Lord GODERICH then rose and observeth is Ile )1
hid given way ; and if he had not on the p.r letl
adopted a simil it line of .conduct, be trusted bib
for this reason be deemed presumptuous 111';,;,,Ail
ships.—(Hear, hear.) During the incidental 'Oll9
which took place, he had offered no cpinril; • Olfii
there were undoubtedly many. things to
eg
come forward and break silence. Still he
ha°30.51
in abstaining from taking part in these conv.er:;:feellol
sidecing that he was acting in unison Witt'. 010
the House, and believing it was the course to: woo?
to keep down, in their minds, every feeling ;too, 70i
give any other tone to a discussion so now feel .04t
derable anxiety to express his opinions upon. 010,,sti
and he was the more anxious to do so at tna
,hieb Pio
when he remembered- the remarkable words !veniald
that of calm deliberation. He did,
been used by a Noble Earl on a preceding
riled however,tbe ow"
a speech which had received .much well-me A-0W
—words which went to attribute to the v"

be
toweled
the of which all their Lordatips would
lo pay the penalty. If he believe,lttobat
rase, he would not have the face 1 i
not fe I guilty
.(f
More their Lordship]; but lie dien.
that be ha(
present this
ul7i st
n the
(.
il
ft
the charges. His conscience told himia( dor, nothi.ne-
done nothing disgracefol--ethat he l
I.
his Sovereign
Which was inconsistent with his duty -°,,ear, hear. It
eallis duty as a Minister of the Crown --- ' '1
wee imassible, however, to r main silent i-'ndetrhesom grave
a charg,e. rti, Noble Earl, i„ face, charged•,
e.--ai'ed. . It
being the cause of all the excitement whl‘.. PI"
for them, !mi.(
Would have been transitory, had it keptnot beel(ye it
the Noble Earl. If they '
hat. not al
had the oPPor-
ould have subsided a, so en as the padpe.....(Hear.)
the flame,
told' and advantage of a little calm reflection,„,,
ea or the
oft"' ,1 admit
If this, indeed, were the right view,euarea y ,
true history of the question, he should on2,l'd
hi,, majesty s
the etime with which the 01,1 e i':, arl abari?'
looked at the
Moiistera ; but he said that any man w.],iotnry
of its pro-
of the question, and looked to the history of
of public
Ves must take a narrow and contractett‘aa'
s() tra,,_
'edng, if lie considered it founded on anything_e its clia-
sient that a delay of a few months could , chin}
raeter.---(1Iear•
with more or
, ) He declared
It hail at.racted the attention of the c0un,....0r
s. ..,try
years.
it was not
less intensity of Power for a period of ''') '
~rivnew question.
introduced,
it WdS Pow(
first it was.titeven
little
a strange fact, that when •
„d agains •
coin '
, .„. Paratwe disfavour was entertain,
of its history,
in toe utilise of Commons. In the progressshelast
century
however, events arose towards the end ti.,
(Is of men great
which naturally tended to create in the min
if
he
were
old
Itstaste betsto all political change-
And-uhlie affairs, he
ea°"ah at
me to have taken part in l'
of this
would decidedly not have supported any proposition
from its nature,
nature,
But this was a question wbich,..even it were
'night slumber, but could not sleep;
constau-
aml lit„ the i
otFeasionally , to eleep, there was something it impossible it
lua °, the. human heart that rendered
„ar
twiny yeals
could h-
er extinguished. Thus, although x
revolution there
afar the '
eoninienceinent of the French
,t
were
teas
eurnparat• • • against it, )e there.
rred that
roan . sly a distaste
occurred Y circumstances which subsequently
tench.,
favourable position.of the
tliju 'a to place it in a more
theattentiond
People
oecorred in
to direct
and increased
PeVe to •
,15, It, and ultimately to give a
• greatereased taxation—e
'tti, 'itY for its consummation. The increased
sudden change
f oeroktered of men's fortunes by the
of that
wrar wee totalspeace, added to the long
continuancechange. A great
alte:„!d the people to wish for some
society.
The Noble
11'Ni took place in the state of
of time from theto
4,41 had observed, that during the periodfrom
Blenheim
and
Itr,teestinf La Hogue to Trafalgar, and a
degree of glory
..n
ProspC' the country had enjoyed n
to enj'Y '!gaient.
allti ity which it might never happen
rnied Parham
.0 •
Ilutilli'st Probably not under
a Re
°during this peribele
there
e would tell the Noble Earl, that
change in t
ere had he
irremediable , , and pros-
%tte
of
so • en a change, an
all this glory of that
krity
thereele In the midst of
nature
that
ter ' ' were symptoms of the unstable.
d during
te •
teta`Y Pr4PeritY, which was Produce
cki* And when there came the charge.
the
country
teases, tl was scarcely an interest
did
not
suffer.
i,i,ettntil'Cor manufacturing—_.which
duinag,
theeZalvere upwards of 100,000. persons
wealth, wereea.
ddeej.' had
, been suddenly raised
persons, not Pte__
h,pe Y uepressed to poverty ; and theseevils
to the system
chip Under I'aatorally, attributed their
id to the Corlett
.al
tioo which they were represented, ;r1
and unnatural
ehro' "'kb admitted of these sudden
Constitution the
to ,!e!' Re believed it was a libel on . but it, how-
inegt•entzt;aa. eve'ra't.it woOld produce evils of this nature; but
system of our
rep4B-`°ded to draw the eyes of men
to
ohere was a putt
toent.:ott.tion. Then was it that t
of the traffic
borootaZ4 'n the House of Commons of
it first mentionedit
il a 16"---(he believed, by the bye, ,
not long after
444 letter °f
he
Lord Chesterfield's)—an°
law was passedwas
agc "toe strongly before the public, a
which
heard
theliadat this traffic ; and yet this very.
system,tional, they a
now :elated to he illegal and unconstitutional,
applauded as
virtue -•et While openly defended, but even
nd
as part of the.,
syste , "nile the practice was la
be governeedst
ht to
In .1, whin h
the law
ti alone the
with the rigr
' 'tution
wad 1 eseribed it as inconsistent
w and Consti
denounced
of thr? Of Parliament, and with the la
1 the law denoutnhat,
4 tiertlirealm. hy, good God a!
w-e_n
people knew
re.
ontwithn cou.rse of conduct,
.an.d the
what the .
lawmi:ght
notiota,Staodin that denunciation,
practised, '''
of
he 7' t° begs •
openly
not judges
taw
crime was
England
were
were d no
polities, that th. e people 01 ,
of England
casuist to
fools, queltions ; but the people
moat subtile
nd the
rernaVind they, vrould defy the
a a
crime, a
be a
prseti "e What the law denounced
proclaimed to
Noble
virtuoso °f a large part of society
Passerted by
a
a.iert•ii-;(. Rear, hear.) It had been
the
authors o f thealone.
-11i/1 too his) Yesterday evening, that
of
population
That h ra for their bisia the amount • the state
considered
Of th e denied• Undoubtedly they
decay or other-
wise ' Population as an indication of the
the amount of
Poptijf tar'Y Place ; but they did not take the ;
they took
other-
the milation
alone as the basis of the
.mea
with the amount
hi t„. %In of population in conjunction
Lordships' table
h :stion. There
on their
in all
a owl°
ere were Papers
ed taxation
and
t t g the • exact amount of the assess
Bill, in
°Was that
by the Bill.
shelthwere to be disfranchised
bised by the
Whe,..toWns that were not to he disfranchised
That by those pao-
were those
the tattle ?
pep %tit. Lords thoss
papers on
were invited t
inde hipti judge, and they
however,
oer of the state nightthe population ;
which,
united with
Wthalle Pei te sole Principle of the Bill, but was
Noble Lord leave
Pult4a),''.'''Ple of taxation. Would the
:141 entirely out of the question ? u
respect, it
Byer,enl„: definite line were drawn in that
borough
should 've' be practicable to determine
whatinits franchise.
it 11411
hose, and
mg what borough should retain
roughs were es-
sential loon argued that the noinivatioti
° and much stress
Le
hee the Working of the public affairs,.
would.,
be es-
°e ,leid 011 the extreme inconvenience whichtie
difficult'
tvlii4ita,,'',loned to the public service
.by
.e 'ire finding
their w.;'anY individuals would experience
by the represen-
tation Y Into the House of Commons
for which
theY et°l. more popular places than those
had last
night, inl'resent Sat His Noble Friend oppositetouched all hearts,
patted Z manner that must have
of those
''llls W the gad sad prospects, in that respect,.
p ent Minis-
trea ' anool4 succeed his Majesty's - 'es
men, the
ea ' 4-9
OM tauten'
f te of young
now
Peetaat •ted the future a
_urs, who
'now
a,, s In after-life of hereditary honours
of HouseCom-
kel, PPortunity of cultivating in the d who, by
tvre,t)i4„ ktn`wled e of üblic business' and eeriors in
ithilitvi and ejounteritPi
ventually
their equals or. sue
of high
PUlai", Ilecatt
lieventually!' fitted for situations
1 resulted
fro :,'ust.
ad ' ted the advantage which
should be
filitinl,_e4 it syetem. nltf he did not admit it, he
m which
he....frio all ,;
aatia!nrY ; he should forget the stock frdo
sprung.
but
L h°4l.,- a'elt Many of their Lordships—ha
omination
eorou e
genied the necessity of retainirs .
n'duals ad-
-4144i
oche'
fOrLtbe ' f icing such indivi
sons
of
liol,lll into the II
opuusrepoofs e o
Commons. g
How manyd,e.york
sbire:naeei bad eat for counties ? Northu
mbericaolnshire.—
in sort:744e? Staffordshire, Derbyshire,
Linties in Eng-
andeab
alie Might run through half the counties a
fitting
avraue I:`' been so represented, There was
and of
iltsPirin eYalvbiefi young men of rank, of talents,
of enter'
. i.,4 --araeter •
k 1g g h„ 'I allgilt have the opportunity
another. For,
-ti vio anottrithie c In erition with one
he
coll°l,l
nestat he di d° .
oPf 'the character of the people,
ochange
w 0.., old
r believe tit t incomprehensible
Bill,
as
to
oiu be
Ina., . a so
by this _
had a -
render
,4 ale ln that character
be al
-
for . •nch individual those to whom •
which
~ ed less _ a as lose
counties in
iney bo.. ,eceptable to the several
more,
was
the ti';„'essed interest and influence. What Members
for
a, ." proposed to
number ofe.
‘• . kaigliab
euuntiee
increase the
field of ennaPan
•dio . Ootinties ; thus widening the.
tee w.-
Nand yg
andida
%vete po g' lag a more extensive range to c
the thou-
woo, _ Pillar frona their character and from
to J.,ndearing ties which attached ;hem to their respectivewa_ a
,oultte'era; do his increase of the county 11Iembers
ex
ism.
guit7.4POitie twhat some people called the evil ofeontar-
toretil,g then omination boroughs. It had been Je
tion in
great Itl 4 Noble Lord, that the fixing the quabfiea
froo, ti°lwns at 101., would have the effect of excluding, con-
nected e !louse of
anionsCo a number of person
persona
inter., . it.h trade
ances, and also.
so
traieTa!ed In those colonies, the value of which had
rim
Non, Increased to this country since the loss of estate
thei ' "nail to their Lordships were not called upon to
Itutrife,Nectures. Conjectures were bad
foundedarguinents.—
on the 7e Might state his conjecture, it would be
.was
of a
~ aetr that in places where the right of electingribe _
lied t:Pular character persons such as he had desc d
en re ea
mistake to
st
th P tkdly c osen. It was a great
l'i
liaDirector,
reposelos
_at a Bank Director, or an East In( .
with the
etdot:
jeoPuleot merchant, or any person connected
ous
only
throu i.ll now got into the Rouse
of
Cw.nris.
places•___
iedi4ll the trlodiurn of the nomination boroo laces.—
Now 413 were frequently returned for popular I'
d honour,
were Wili if such a an, possessed of talents an .
l for
at present r t d for Liverpool, for Bristo.,
here
e fled
interest in the
'e.) the electors having an additional
tal"nta and hooour f 'h
• .-
t tives he should find
au ioer,,ased
difficulty
t. eir
.represen a
1: (Lord Code-
'loll) tould in being returned, e .
such
Candidates
„ 1 , not for the life of him conceive, he
• d re.
• 'e had deserib el
not 11 men of timid an
tipia . e were usua y
tr,.:"R Latina • and would not hesitate to enter into a con-
:eat, if such 'contest
To h' therefore,
it a
were nteessary. him, tar, PPettred that the increased difficulty which it i:" theY would experience in finding their way into. thy.
br°A-,1/:'e of Commons was merely a creature of the im.agt
,14 A great objection has' been made to the abolition
o-
Wll4l Were called Corporation rights. But what waa

the avowed practice of some of these Corporations? He
would not merrion them there ; but if he were walkinc
down Pall-mall with a friend, he could ❑ame half-a-dozen
places, having Corporations, where it wits the usage to
present every voter with a saw of money. He himself
once, not for himsdf, 'nit for a Orson of great talent and
character, whom he wished to see in the House of Cotn-

mono, had applied to a principal authority in one of those
Corporations, intimating, however, that a dooceur would
not be offered. He found that success was hopeless. On
inquiring whether any of the out-voters might be expected
to come wi!hout a bribe, he was told not one. This was
one of innumerable instances of a similar kind ; and no
!nail would deny it. The Noble Marquis opposite, who
had complained of the declamation of his Noble Friend
near him, bed called the attention of his Noble Fri,nd to
the event.; of the French Revolution (not the recent but the
ancient one), and he bad aslred his Noble Friend if it was
his intention—or rattier, he (Lord Goderich)believed, ex-
pressing himself in more courteous terms, had said he sup-
po,ed it was not his Noble Friend's intention—to set himself

op a, the Neckar of this country. As to Neckar, whoever
ascribed to him the French Revolution must have wholly
overloiikeil the present history of France. Let them exa-
mine that history, and they would find that the French
Revolution was produced by a corrupt Court, a degraded
Nubility—degrade il by their conduct, although claiming
exclusive privileges—and an enslaved people. Front the
earliest period of the French history down to the Revolu-
tion, there was a perpetual struggle on the part of the
privileged orders to deprive the other classes of their
rights, until at length those lamentable conssquences en-
sued, which for so many years spread desolation not
only in France, but throughout Europe, producing evils
from the effects of which the world would probably never
entirely recover. He trrsted tl•at their Lordships would
trace those evils to their true source. In that case the,
wou!3 serve as beacons to guide them en their way to
the port of safety.—(Hear.) His opinions on the sub-
ject of Parliamentary Reform undoubtedly were not
what they were some years ago ; but he could assure
their Lord-hips that he had not change(' his opinions
without the deepest consideraton. In taking the course
which he had adopted, he could not presume, to say that
he had sacrificed any personal interest or personal power.
But he had sacrificed many personal and early attach-
ments—many valuable and long-cherished recollections.
It was a sacrifice which he could not have endured, had
he not been supported by the consciousness of honest in-
tentions, and by the conviction that the measure which
ha had advocated would be in the highest degree
beneficial to their Lordships, and to the permanent inte-
rests of the country.—( Hear. )
The Earl of HADDINGTON observed, that the justi-
fication with which his Noble Friend had closed his speech,
was wholly unnecessary. No man who knew either his
Noble Friend, or the Noble Secretary of State fur the
Home Department, but must be perfectly persuaded, that
the course which he was pursuing, was one which he be-
lieved to be dictated by a paramount necessity. His Noble
Friend had commenced his speech by defending his Ma-
jesty's GOvernment from the charge which had been
brought against it, of having created the existing excite-
ment ; and had maintained that it did not create that ex-
citement, but that it found it. He believed with his
Noble Friend, that the question of Parliamentary Reform
had been in one shape or another silently working its way
in the public mind for a long time. But he also believed
that the present feverish agitation on the subject, the ex-
pectation of undefined blessings, had been mainly produced
by the Bill under their Lordship? consideration. Finding
an excitement, his Majesty's Ministers had taken measures
not to allay, but to inflame it. On the first night of the
debate on this Bill, those Noble Lords who objected to the
second reading of it had been taunted with being the ene-
mies of all Reform. He (Lord Haddington) bad then pro-
tested against such an inference; and had argued that, as
on the one hand Radical Reformers might oppose the Bill
as not going far enough, so on the other hand persons
of different principles might oppose it, as going so far
as to threaten the dissolution of the Constitution; and
not because they were the enemies of all Reform.
But the tactics of the friends of the Bill were now
changed. To-night they had taunted all the enemies of the
Bill with being Reformers. They had NIP, " All of you
have confessed that you are Reformers; but you are in-
consistent ; for if you are really Reformers, you must
allow this Bill to go into the Committee." It was true
that he (Lord Heddington), and all on his side of the
House, saw the necessity for Reform ; but it must be a
Reform upon principles known to the Constitution, and
within limits which would secure the existence of the na-
tional institutions. To those principles, and to those in-
stitutions, they considered the present Bill as hostile. 11
the principles on which that Bill was founded were carried
to their extent, or even if they were admitted at all, they
must eventually sweep away King, Lords, and Commons.
This was no new doctrine. It bad always been maintained
by the friends of the Constitution, and of our ancient in-
stitutions, that if once Reform were admitted, merely on
general theoretical principles, it must lead to consequences
subversive of that Constitution, and of those institutions.
The Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), who taunted the Mem-
bers of that side of the House with inconsistency in their
admissions, had himself made some admissions of importance
to a might undeistanding of the question. The Noble Mar-
quis admitted that any system which did not give its due
preponderance to property would bean evil, and he contended
that great changes had already been introduced into the
Constitution by the passing of laws affecting fundamental
principles, by the unions with Scotland and Ireland, and by
the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders of Ire-
land ; but yet such was the wonderful power that Constitu-
tion possessed of adapting itself to circumstances, that all
this had been done without striking at any of the peat
principles on which it was supported. Now, with great
deference to the Noble Marquis, he (Lord Haddington)
must say, that the changes now proposed did go to
strike at these great practical principles, and the fault he
and those who thought with him found with the Bill was
just this—not that it proposed a change, but that it would
effect one of that descriptiou.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Viscount opposite (Melbourne), in the debate of yester-
day evening, alluding to the opinions of Lord Bacon, said
that the great object in political institutions was to secure
permanence in all that required the common consent of the
people ;- and after quoting a passage to that effect, pro-
ceeded to contend, that the consent of the people now
failed, because their confidence in the House of Commons
was wanting. This absence of confidence, if it were true,
might be a very good reason for change ; but it was no
reason for that total alteration which the Noble Viscount
argued for, nor had he or any other Noble Lord said one
word to prove its necessity.—(Hear.) The Noble
Vircount, in attempting to prove, observed, that he saw
Birmingham and all the great manufacturing towns unre-
presented, and be asked if it could be denied that it
was necessary they should have representatives? When
that assertion was cheered, then, exclaimed the Noble
Viscount " that is the whole question.''—(Hear ) He
denied that it was the whole question. What they had
to prove was, not the propriety of giving ad opiate
representatives. to the manufacturing or commercial
towns, but the propriety and justice of bringing in
a Bill for that purpose, in which, instead of placing
the elective franchisement in the first rink, they adopted
the ungracious course of making disfranchisement boroughs
and corporate towns the prominent portion, while they
placed the enfranchisement behind, and as a mere acces-
sion. In order to give representatives to Birmingham,
or an additional Member, if it was considered necessary to
the county of Warwick, it surely was not necessary to
violate all chartered rights—to produce a total change in
the whole constituency of the country, and to assume that
the whole frame and system of the representation demanded
reconstruction. A Noble Friend of his (Lord Harrowby),
whose speech few who heard it would readily forget—
(Hear, hear)—had alluded to the question of population,
as one of the principles of the Bill with a power of lan-
gunge and force of reasoning which must give every one
reason to regret that his health permitted that Noble Lord
so seldom to take part in their debates. He (Lord Had-
dington) would not presume to attempt to improve on
those arguments. He would merely say, that he agreed
with the Noble Lord in all the consequences he deduced
from taking population as the principle of the representa-
tion in the reconstruction of the Constitution. The ad-
vocates of the Bill said, however, that population was
only one of the principles, and that it must be taken in con-
nection with others. All he could say was, that if they
had taken it in connection with others, they had not ad-
hered to them.—(Hear, hear.) He was told—he did not
mean to say that he knew it, brit he had it from good
authority—that some of the places dis'ranchised in sche-
dule A, paid more taxes than some of those which retained
their right in schedule B. If this were so, he would ask,
what became of those other principles which were to be
taken in connection with population. The Noble Lord
Nays that 2,000 persons are to have one Member, and 4,000
two Members, and that there they are to stop. There are
others, however, who can work the rule of three as welt
as the Members of the•GOYerMent ; and they say, if two
gives one and four gives two, what should 150,000 give?
—(Cheers.) He believed that this principle was already
worked with great industry by the philosophers of Bir-
mingham and Manchester. He and the Noble Lords on
his side of the Ileuse, looked at consequences of that
kind. They saw the Government had taken population
is their principle, and they warned them that demands
like these would soon come from those who thought them-

!selves entitled- to t'he full exterision of that principle.
This was no fanciful idea of his, nor was it confined to
this country. The people of other countries—the public
writers and politicians of other countries—viewed with as
much surprise the altetations proposed by the Government
as some of the 'Members of that House: An American of
some reputation, Comparing the principle of the Bill with
the rule of tlit,e plan in use in his own country, stys
" that it is not now a question, Whether the present
system of representation in Great Britain does not work
as well as our or as any system, but whether a great
change in the present system, called a Reform, which be-
gins by wholly disfranchising sixty boroughs, b:cause
their population is under two thousand, and depriving of
half their franchise forty-seven boroughs more, can stop
there. What reason can he given to satisfy the inhabi-
tants of some of the populous towns, having no repre-
s=tat'on at all, and to whom it is not proposed to
give any% As to the present system the answer is
ready. The British Constitution does not propose a geogra-
phical representation ; it finds certain boroughs, sonic large
and some small, possessed of the right cf sending a Member
to Parliament, fur a long petiod of years, some of them
from time immemorial ; the system, in practice, operates
well, and it does nut profess to be founded on the rule of
three. But now come the Reformers ; they say it does
not work web ; that the House of Commons has lost the
r,spect of the people ; that it is an alose which cannot he
longer borne, that boroughs of less than two thousand
metnt,ers should send representatives, although they may
have done it by prescription, as old as any title in the
kingdom ; and that it is an equal abuse that boroughs of
between two thousand and four thousand should send more
than one Mtmber. Well then, cannot all the unrepre-
sented towns in tie kingdom, whcse population exceeds
two thous mod, say, that if you discard tradition, and go
upon reasonableness or fitness, our right is as good as that
of the represented boroughs? Surely they can and will.
too as to the counties. It will appear on the re-
, formei plan, that counties differing widely in population,
possess trip, same share of power in constituting the House.
of Comnr,..,-..dt' Win-this be endured in a system whi: -
disfranchises 'sixty other reason than tit
their population is .dialler other.. JT,L,.
hear, hear.) Those whe suffer by the imperfect applic

iunof the rule of three system, that is, the majority

the people, will clamour to have it carried through, ar
they will have reason and common sense on their side.
Mr. Canning and the Anti-Reformists could arouse them,
hut Lord John Russell cannot.—( Hear, bear, and a
laugh.) The vice of the present system is, that it is the
rule of three plan, with a blunder in working the
question. The question is, if the borough A has 4 000
inhabitant,, and sends two Members, how many Members
should B send, which has 10.000? Lord Jahn Russell
works the question thus--. 39 4,000 is to 2, so is 10,000
to 2. But it is not. Then, if Lord J. Russell should
say that after all"—[The Noble Lord (Haddington) here
seemed to have mislaid the remainder of Vie sheer, and
observed that he did not know what Lord John Russell
said to that.—(A laugh.) He feared, indeed, that their
Lordships mu•t excuse a mutilated quotation —(Beer.)
The Americans were, in fact, looking with amazement at
the course pursued by England. They said to each other,
" Here is the country that the world has been looking at
with wonder and admiration fur centuries ; a country
which, with a small population and a limited territory,
has risen to a height of greatness unsurpassed by any
other—which has gone through with power and success a
contest of a severity unexampled in the history of man-
kind—a country which boasted itself as the rallying point
for all the free and liberal of the earth. What is its
people aspiring to ? With what are they discontented,
that they toss to the winds the. institutions which
have given them so much fortune and so much
power, and launch themselves on the wide ocean of
expectation, looking to untried theories as a means of
amending that system which experience should have
taught them does not require any amendment?"—(Cheers.)
Passing to the disfranchisement clauses, he would
ask why all freemen were to lose their rights ? If some
of them were corrupt. he would say, apply a remedy ; but
why disrrauchise all? It was said that they wished to
destroy bribery and corruption ; but -surely that was not
to be done by depriving all freemen of their rights. They
might have had as many ten.pounders as they liked ; but
bow, he would ask, did they destroy corruption, when
they took away the rights of all freemen to give them to
persons who paid three shillings and sixpence a week of
rent ? Why, it was well known there was a Local Act
which made the payment of that rent an exoneration from
poor-rates, and classed them, therefore, with paupers.
Surely they did not destroy corruption by placing the
franchise in hands like these.—(Hear.) After adding all
those bribable subjects to those who at present were
bribed, the Bill took away from the unborn children of
the possessors of burgage tenures the rights of their pa-
rents; so that it laid down a vicious principle, and de-
ferred the execution of it. Now, if it was right to take
the power away from their persons, why was it deferred?
It was an injury to the 101. householders. It deprived
them of a portion of their rights; and they were bound
to object to it. He bad always held a political trust to be
in a different situation from a private interest; but although
a political trust might be resumed, he contended that
when it was connected with political rights (be would
not say vested interests), it should, at all events, be
treated with great delicacy. He did not object to the
resumption of the trust, but he required a strong proof
of its necessity ; and it was of the absence of that proof
and necessity that he now complained ; for he thought
thet any unnecessary violation of a political trust
when connected with a political right, would ultimately
go to shake the foundations of property. This was no
new doctrine. It had been broached by Sir R. Peel in the
other House, and treated with great skill and address.
With respect to the enfranchisement of great towns and
cities, if it had been proposed, and the necessity for it
proved, he was prepared to give it his vote; but when
they were taunted by the other side for not proposing a
plan of Reform of their own, he replied it was not their
business.—(Hear, hear.) They were content to remain
as they were. He dreaded changes, and wished to God
tl:ey could remain as they were. He knew, however,
they could not.—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.)
He knew they could not now—(Hear, hear)—remain as
they were, and he should act the part of a bad citizen to
his country, and a bad subject to his King, if he allowed
any love of abstract principles to prevent his yielding to
necessity, if it was proved, or if lie persisted in a desperate
and unavailing contest. His Friend, the late Mr. Can-
ning, in one of the last speeches he made on the question
of Refbrm, and just before he believed he was going to
India, had predicted that the time would come when that
necessity might prevail, and after eulogising the firmness
and consistency of the Noble Earl (Grey) who now brought
forward the present Bill, his Right Hon. Friend declared
in the spirit of prophecy, that the glory of having pro.
duced a measure of Reform would probably rest with
the Noble Earl, but it would be his glory to have resisted
it to the last.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Haddington) had
no right to assume what would have been the opinions of
his Right Hon. Friend had he lived to the present time,
He was answerable for no blunderings except his own, but
lie was as much at liberty to speculate on what those opi-
nions would have been as on the effect of any change
which the circumstances of the time might produce. Ano-
ther Right Hon. Friend of his and of Mr. Canning, and
who lived for three years after him—a man of profound
knowledge and rare sagacity—expressed himself in still
stronger terms on the motion for giving representatives to
Birmingham, which was brought on in February, 1830.
Alter declaring his intention to vote for giving a represen-
tative to Birmingham, Mr. Huskisson observed,—" I have
ever been—l now stn—l shall continue as much as ever
—an enemy to what is called Parliamentary Reform on
principle ; that is, to any general Reform in the formation
of the House of Commons, which is founded upon the
principle of theoretical improvement. Any such plan of
Reform, I am convinced—and all history, all experience,
all knowledge of human nature and human passions, bears
me out in the conviction, however it might, for a season
or two, adapt itself safely to ordinary and quiet times--
would, upon the first great excitement of popular feeling
(and such excitements are inevitable in every form of so-
ciety) subvert the whole frame of the Constitution, and
substitute, for the security and protection of a well-regu-
lated Government, either the evils of democracy or those
of despotism ; or, more probably, the dreadful visita-
tion of both these tyrannies, in their natural order
of succession. Nothing, I am well aware, is so
easy as to take to pieces and to hold up separately
to trial and condemnation the different descriptions
of franchise and modes of election, by the exercise of
which the present House of Commons is created—nothing
so hopeless, as to defend each separate part, when thus
brought up to be arraigned abstractedly from the whole.
I think it a waste of time, and perversion of common
sense, to look at our Constitution in this way. If, there-
fore, I am challenged to say whether I am prepared to ad-
vocate this or that particular description of elective fran-
chise which prevails in this or that particular borough, I
will only answer the question by saying, that I look to the
whole as one aggregate—that if the present frame be once
taken to pieces, no man could put it together again, and
that Ido not believe that the wisdom of man—(always
recollecting in old societies how that wisdom is controuled
and swayed by passions, prejudices, and interest)—could
create another and a new flame that would look as well,
and last as long, as the present one. If this was true in

_

February, 1930, it was equally true now; and while he
(Lord Haddington) gave it his entire adherence, he could
not avoid expressing his regret for the fatal and ruinous
delusion which led the Government to abandon the prin-
ciple it so ably inculcated. They were, however, hreed
from a final resting place; dud notwithstanding all
they heard, he feared no change, however extensive,
could give them another: When the Bill seas first in-
troduced, they had heard mti,th of the necessity of going
far enough, in order that they rifig,ht find a final restine:
glace.—(Hear, bear.) Or all the delusions connected
with the Bill, that was the mo t fatal. How could they
put their system-on the wheel, and then hope to hob! on ?
Why, it contained, within itself a principle of p-rpetual
motion—(Hear, bear)—and he almost fancied. that
its inventors would claim from the Board Cf tonei-
tude the reward of their discoveries. The places left out
of the represervation will, by and by, claim their right.._
The Parliament may say to. But the claimants will have
reason and justice on th-ir side when the Bill passes, and
they must prevail.—(Cheers.) Mr. Canning scold hare
answered them ; but the advocates of the new system
cannot ; and there was Mr. Canning's wisdom. There
will be no resting place. The interests of the country will
be confided to the 10/. householders, and the machine will
continue its motion until all the splendour of an ancient
monarchy—all the estiblishments of the Church and of
the State—all institutions, civil, military, and religious,
will be confiled to a Parliament, the direct organ of ;he
people, annually renewed, through universal suffrage and
vote by ballot.—(Cheers.) He might appear to have
overstated these things, but his understanding- was so
framed that be could not comprehend haw the introduc-
tion of principles having such tendencies should not work
towards their natural end, and produce those injurious
effects to the Ginstitution which all were anxious to
avert.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl at the head of the
Government bad been blamed for not introducing some
small plan of Reform. The Noble Earl bed not the
power to do so. The Noble Duke (Wellington) who
preceded him in office might have brought forward
'lan. He could have afforded to do so, but the

rl would have forfeited all his reee!-;:ee
11 his character tor
. eerity—neu introduced a.
4-, a ~...,seterahle change in the representation.
e'
telieved, however, that the Noble Earl went much
larther than even his character rendered necess try ;
and he (Lord H.) certainly never could forget the sur-
prise and alarm which the promu'gation of the plan excited
in the minds even of the most ardent lovers of Reform
(Heir.) Up to that hour all the supporters of the Bill
elsewhere—he was not questioning their sincerity—but o
all the supporters of the Bill, though they said it was
necessary, he had met with very few who approved of
the Bill. A more moderate measure would have done
The Noble Earl said riot, and he knew hut one nay of de-
ciding that, and that was for their Lordships to give the
country time for con:idecation. He believe 1 that the
debates in that House, and in the other House, would have
considerable effect on the people, and would have satisfieo
moderate
would
notmen.say
thatHe he
did notddn
expect,t wishthat;
to satisfy
theat he op
radicals
e d;
he
it would satisfy idle great bulk of the moderate people.
They would be satisfied with any thing that went to amend
the representation with a probability of benefit. Tht
Noble Earl said it would be wise to conciliate and make
concessions, and he had wished to warn their Lordships of
the danger of not conceding in time. There was, indeed
one part of the Noble Earl's address inure striking than
that, and he hail referred to the experience of history to
demonstrate the fully of those legislators who had refuse..
all concessions till they were too late. There was no
human folly or vice which had not contributed to over-
turn States, and among them obstinacy was undoubtedly
one; but certainly it was also true, that Monarchies had
been destroyed by concession. Very often obstinacy and
concession were combined, or they followed each other.
He would quote no other instance than that of Charles
1., in whom both qualities were combined to effect his
min.—(Hear, hear.) He was obstinate at first, and made
concessions afterwards. What did he do for the Parlia-
ment? Why be gave into its hands all the power of the
State. He passed a Bill to give all the power of the State
into the bands of the House of Commons, and that led to
the destruction of that infatuated Prince. He consented
that the Parliament should never be dissolved but by its
consent, and that Parliament subverted all the other
powers of the State.' His Noble Friend, who spoke last,
said that the Bill did not touch any of their Lordships'
privileges ; that it left the Monarchy and that House with
all the privileges which had ever been attributed to them
by any writer. True, the Bill took away the nomination
boroughs, and that would not injure the Peers. Their
Lordships would stand though they lost the nomination
boroughs, but they could not stand under this Bill. It
! created a power which would destroy them. He, there-
fore, could not consent to the second reading. He had
been anxious to do so—be had been anxious to devise
some reason to vote for the Bill, that it might go into a
Committee. He had sat down to the Bill for that pur-
pose, but found it was not possible, except Ministers
should make considerable concessions, and that the Oppo-
sition should be moderate in their expectations. He had
found neither. He did not blame the Noble Earl (Grey)
for the language be had used ; it was not his fault ; with
his views of the Bill that was justified ; but as it so hap.
pened, if Noble Lords concurred with him in thinking
it was impossible, under such circumstances, to make
any improvements in the Bill, it was not right to go
into the Committee. In doing so it was not a hasty
determination ; but the responsibility, whatever it
might be, would belong to all. The Noble Lord
who spoke last complained of his Noble Friend (Earl
Dudley), that he opposed the Bill because he was opposed
to the Ministers. That could not he said of him ; be
had always been a supporter of the Government; he ap-
proved of the principles on which the Noble Earl formed
his Administration, and it would have been a gratifica-
tion to him if he could have supported this Bill. He
could not, and was obliged to sacrifice his wishes on the
altar of duty to his country. He should have played an
unworthy part had he consented to flatter the Ministers
by giving them his support. He had only to state, that,
acting as he did, he bad no intention of treating with dis-
respect the wishes of the people or the plan of the Go-
vernment. He stated what he felt as a Peer of Parlia-
ment, and in the exercise of his privilege—that privi'ege
which he bad received fur the good of the country. If
lie thought in his conscience that the Bill was likely to be
mischievous, it was his duty to reject it. He was not
~hind to the danger of rejecting it. Their Lordships'
situation was one of misery, and they had only a chance
of danger. His only consolation was, that the people of
England were renowned for their moderation—for their
good sense and moderation; and on their good sense, or
their speedy return to their ancient customs and thoughts,
he placed great reliance. He had another consolation.
He placed great reliance on that superintending
Providence which bad conducted the country through
many difficulties, and carried it to a great height of glory
and honour; and that great Power would not desert
their Lordships if they did not desert themselves.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of RADNOR was surprised at the opposition
to the motion; fir all the Noble Lords who bad spoken
with one exception, were agreed that Reform was neces-
sary. They assented, therefore, to the principle of the
Bill. At the present stage they were called upon to say
Theyt!ete determined i nseatildt to
Reformsay N o
wason
Aye or No to the principle ; an i though they admitted that
l
proposed, they say they
who spoke early in the
the •
e principles•
ntd ahl division.—(Laughter.)
aYiv'ile;n° idat..ne—bd a (tiLeilialsteuhiNg:byoßtbe;rfe:):eul alils
Friend,
debate on the first evening, and protested against the Bill,
was willing to go almost its whole length. He agreed to
the disfranchisement, he agreed to tile enfranchisement, to
the division of counties—be admitted all the provisions of
the Bill, and yet refused to vote fer it. All the Noble Lords
who had spoken had admitted they were friendly to Reform,
and yet they meant to oppose the Bill. He could not say
that, indeed, for the Noble Lord who spoke last, for he did
not know whether that Noble Lord were for or against
Reform.—(A laugh.) Over and over again he had stated,
that he liked our old Administration—that he dreaded
change; and he had quoted the speeches of Mr. Canning
and Mr. Huskisson, which were out and out against
Reform, saying that he adhered to all the principles they
described, and yet he had admitted that something was
necessary, though not such a measure as this. What fault
did he find with the Bill? Why he objected to clause A
being placed before clause B, and if clause B had been
placed first, be would have voted for the Bill. The Noble
Earl wanted enfranchisement to go before disfranchisement.
That was a matter of taste. Many of the boroughs which
were the most odious is the eyes of the people, were placed
in schedule A, and it was that schedule which had made
the Bill so popular with the people. If it would please
the Noble Earl, he should snake no objection to placing B
before A, though it was quite a new way of learning the
alphabet.—(A laugh.) But the framers of the Bill had
stuck to the old way, and was that a good reason for re-
jecting the Bill ? The Noble Earl said the Bill was alarm-
ing, and that when the wheels were fixed on the carriage,
away it would go down the hill into universal suffrage,
annual Parliaments, and vote by ballot. But the Noble
Earl, who was now at the top of the hill, would himself
put wheels on the carriage, and he, therefore, would go
down too, though he might not go down quite so fast but
in fact, it would come to the same thing; and whether
the Noble Earl, or any other Noble Earl, put on the wheels,
the danger must, according to him; be equally alarming.

It was to him ince neeivable how any Noble Lord could
vote against the second reading, and yet be in favour of
Reform. The debate which hid taken place had been al-
together a debate for the Committee. With the exception
of two .speeches, all the speeches which had been made
related to the details of the Bill ; and all the objections
which had been stated might be obviated perhaps
in the Committee. One Noble Lord, indeed, said he
detested the principle of the Bill so mercies that he
could not bear to look upon it. Ile knew nothing,
he said, of the details, and yet he waa prepared to vote
against the Bill because its details were so monstrous.
One Noble Lord had alfindcd tee the Ministers net
taking a hasty step if the Bill wets rejected ; that Noble
Lord then admitted the danger of the rejectinn, and yet he
woe prepared to vote elgainst the second reading. Those
ieho voted against the second rcelinee, he would say, were
the eneaS'ee 4 Reform, and he would confirm it by whet
the Noble Duke easel last night. The Noble Vulate said,
in the early pert of his speetbs. that some of these who
voted against him on the Civil Ude; noted against the
second reeding cf the Reform Bill. lie implied, there-
tore, that they Were against Reform, and he also /referred
that those who new voted against the Bill were the ene-
mies of Reform —(Hear, hear.) With reference to what
the Noble Duke said of the breaking tip of his Administra-
tion, he would appeal to their Lotdships, if it were not
that celebrated d claration of the Noble Duke's which had
roused the country against him, and begotten the present
liaiikering for Reform. Even the Noble Earl who had
denisd the necessity of Reforest had proposed to suspend
the discussion for two years, to renew the Constitution for
two years, and then to discuss it with calmness and refl,c-
tion. But what did he expect from that, except at the
end of that time to be ably to content the people with a
moderate Reform ? Bust it coifed net be expected that the
feeling would die away. Tee petitions were more nume-
rous than ever, and more likely to increase than diminish.
The Noble Earl contended that tree system had worked
well, but that the people denied, It was admjttaid;,_
greet power of the State 7"..kilar the people of this
ne ; and kowtco,old, Itouheproseeroue, that all ranks and
;;74.7 Vife' r; satisfied with their condition and pros-
e-rity, that they must coneder the system of Govern-
ment under which that was brought about to have
worked well ? If the Government of the cotton y were
in the House of Commons, and if the country were not
prosperous, was not that a sufficient proof that the system
tied not worked, well ? The Noble Earl ended, that if the
Gevernieent had been more popular and democratic, we
should have had more watt. He could not deny that;
but whenever tie heard that argument he was reminded
of a passage he " Bishop Butler's Aualogy of Nature."
Thet eminent Prcla'e stilted, " that all events depended
on such a multitude of causes, the connection between the
laws of cause and effect is so intricate, that it is impossible
to state, if any one event was supposed not to have hap-
pened, that it would not have altered every one of the
-übsequent events." He applied that doctrine to the as.
section about war, and said that it was impossible for any
Noble Lord to say what would hay teen the consequence
of having a Reformed House of Commons. He was ole
enough to remember the war of 1793, and the excitemen.
which th n prevailed. He bsheved that it was artificial,
produced by books and pamphlets, and he moreover he
lieved that if there h id not been a large party amongst us
interested in putting down liberty in France, that the people
woule not have been desirous of entering into that war.
Some Noble Lords spoke of the danger to which the Peer-
ege was exposed, and of the chance that primogeniture
would be abolished. But those dangers had not arisen
trout Reform. They could not originate in Reform, for
they were not in existence, and we had not yet got Re-
fin Lll.-(Cheers.) He wished to God we had got Re-
form ; but we had not, and those difficusties existed, an,
could not, therefore, be saddled on Relorin. Might
it not be that those difficulties arose from not giving Re•
form from a want of Reform ? Reform would remove ano-
malies, would get rid of some of those difficulties, and
would probably put an end to those dispositions from which
the apprehensions arose. Their Lordships were told,
too, that this system had worked well in past times, and
why not now? But all other things were going forward,
why not Government? The objection was, that this Bill
was a change. Why we lived in a wurld of change. He
disliked change as much any man—(Hear)----Send this was
a change.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) His feelings
were against change, he was a man of habit, loving to do
one day what he did the day before. Change was a griev-
ance ; but when any greater grievance than change was to
be removed by encountering a change, he said it was wise
and prudent to change. The evils must be balanced against
each other, and the greater got rid of by some alteration.
Every day brought its own change ; we were all growing
old; our habits and feelings were changing, and he wee
sure that not one of their Lordships could look back for a
few years without finding his opinions, his friends, and all
changed. What was the benefit of experience if there
were to be no change in the mind? Why, we should
always remain the same foolish things we were when
we were babies.—(Laughter.) Every thing else changed,
then why not institutions? The ways of the people
changed ; were, then, laws always to be the same ? If
institutions were to be adapted to the wants of society,
they must be changed to meet the changes in society.
It was folly to think of preserving them unchanged in a
world of change. In fact they were changed, but
changed for the worse instead of the better. They had
not become more liberal and more enlightened as the
people had grown in knowledge ; they had been changed in
another direction. He could not enter into facts to illus-
trate that ti hich he could state on principle. Money made
money, so power had a tendency to make power and in-
crease itself. The close Corporations had gradually be-
come more close ; the rotten boroughs had become more
rotten, and it must be so. The freemen were gradually
excluded, the Corporations had gradually acquired interest
and power to exclude them ; and of ten boroughs which
had been made closer, he did not think one had ben made
more open. Peers had formerly interfered with elections
in boroughs; but the boroughs were not then rotten. He
would take, for example, the borough with which he was
connected, of which he was, he would not say the patron,
but the proprietor. That was a very ancient borough. It
was said that the ancient Wittengamote was held there, and
the spot was still shown where its meetings were held. In
the borough burgage tenure prevailed, and there were 100
burgage tenures, but he was the proprietor of them all ex-
cept one. He was not only time constituent, but had like-
wise the right of appointing the returning officer ; so that
the whole borough was as nice and as close an affair as
you could wish.— (Laughter and cheers.) He mentioned
these circumstances to show that those timings became close
by degrees, and that it was necessary that the institutions
of the country should change with the increase of the
knowledge of mankind. But the fact was, that if there
had been any change, it had been all the other way. But
it was said we were now about to take a too desperate step,
lie would admit that it was a very long one; but the mis-
fortune was, that we had gone on in the old course too
long, without granting a little and a little at a time, as
ought to have been done; and now, when they wanted to
make up for lost time, they found that it must be by a
lung jump. But it was said that the radicals wanted even
more than this Bill gave.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
He did not believe that that was the case. Mr. Hunt, in-
deed, said that ice was not satisfied—(A laugh)---but the
radicals, oa the contrary, said that they would be satisfied
with the Bill. He would not say that, if it should be
found that the Bill did not act well, further improvements
would uot he asked for ; but which of their Lordships, on
finding that a measure wanted improvement, would be
foolish enough to refuse it.—(Cheers ) Surely no one--
and, therefore, in this sense they might all be called radi-
cals.—(Cheers and a laugh.) This, it should be remem-
bered, was not a question of modern agitation ; but the
Noble Duke had said that it was owing to the French re-
volution of last year. He was sure that the Noble Duke
could not mean to say that that revolution had produced
this feeling : it might, indeed, have been drawn out by
that occurrence, but it was well known to ban existed be-
fore.--(Hear.) In the year 1819, a million of persons
had signed petitions in favour of Reform ; and, indeed, if
they wanted to lose sight of the time when Reform was
agitated, they must go back to forty or fifty years ago. And
why not, according to some Noble Lords, should we not re-
main as we were forty or fifty years ago ? But those Noble
Lords appeared to forget that it was contrary to the nature
of things that one point should stand still while all
others went progressing onwards ; and the answer that
he should like to give those Noble Lords would be,
to take them to the Gloucester Coffee-house about eight
o'clock in the evening, and then let them see the six or seven
mails that were ready to start for the country. By means
of th
not only letters but the newspapers of the
day wereose mails
distributed in the course of ten hours over every
town within- one hundred miles of the metropolis. He
i
would take Salisbury, for instance--a city that was eighty
miles from London. He believed that it was within the
memory of man when the post only arrived there three
days in the week, and took 36 hours in getting there.—
(A laugh.) Let him illustrate this position by referring
to the Noble Earl who had spoken against the Bill. Sup-
pose that Noble Earl was down at his seat in Scotland,
and the post brought him his newspaper according to the
present rapid rate of travelling; why,
if the Noble Earl
acted
up to his principles, he would cry, " Take it away!
take it away ! and bring it to me ten days hence by the
old mode of travelling."o-e(Cheets and laughter.) This

might appear very ridiculous, but it Wit& not so; for if
they would have ancient customs in one thing, they must
be content to have them in others. So if the Noble Earl
was to break his leg, he ought to exclaim—" No, no ; I
will have no Mr. Brodie to tie up my arteries; give me the
good old red-hot cauterizing knife."—(Loud laughter.)
But the fact was, that the march of mind, as it was called,
had not only extended to science and art, but had gone on
s far as politice.—(Cheers.) The people knew their
rights, and were demanding the possession of them—
. (Cheers)—and their Lordships might rely on it that one
of the greatest Reformers that ever existed was high taxa-
tion.—(Loud
mEedehuacnatieionef had de mpraeedeenta
413nyigehntyd
itii,,ffatc.r—entceLohuedtwceletneertsh.
the mechanic of fifty years ago ; as a proof of which he
might state, that he had a letter from a Manchester opera.
tive, in answer to one from himself, in which he had de,
•ired to be mede acquainted how this individual bad pro•
cured his eclocation. According to the statement of this
person, it appeared that, though he bad belonged to a Ma-
Mthr•torY from the time he was 16, and was then only
about 24, he had continued to attend some lectures, and
by dint of reading had picked up some knowledge of vul-
gar arithmetic, Algebre, and Euclid, together with geo-
metrical drawing. And he could tell their Lordships,
that when Manchester operatives had time to procure as
much knowledge as thi., it would not do to treat them as
they had treated the same class of persons forty or fifty
years ago —(Cheers.) Their Lordships might just as
well say, " We will nut grow &der" as attempt to prevent
those persons obtaining possession of their rigl‘ts.—
(Cheers.) Knowledge was power; and those perions were
getting more and more knowledge every day.—(C
ilgtehetrilingo.n*
)
It had been a matter of dispute in the other House of
Parliament whether Mr. Canning, if he had lived to the
present time, would have been a Reformer ;..
B.,dnor) hail no personal knowledge 4 W.-we- R hgl;_tlijut
he would venture. Reformer—(Herr, be tr)
9MitleßSOtriedhi; ornion on what fell from him at a din-
ner given to 1,4 at Liverpool—probably that one when
it was expected that he was going to the East Indies.
%Ir. Canning bad then stated, as an argument azainst Ra-
dical Reform, that it would overturn the House of Lords
and the other institutions of the country—for, said he, I
cannot- conceive nn what ground three or four hundred
opulent individuals should oppose themselves to the de-
clared wishes of the country. Now it was impossible
that any delegated Parliament could have better declared
the wishes of the country than had been done by the
',resent House of Commons in this in-tance. He, there-
fore, hoped that their Lordships would consent to the
passing of the Bill; and it was for these reasons that he -
hould give it his own most hearty support.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of HADDINGTON said a few words in ex-
planation.
The ,le,ate was then adjourned till to-marrow (this day,)
Jeer which the House adjourned at Halipast One.

BO USE OF COMMONS, Ocroazz 5.
The SPEAKER• took the Chair at a few minutes before
Four o'clock.
ISlr. O'CONNELL presented a petitiln from a town in
he Queen's County, aeainst the yeomanry of Ireland ;
dso tour petitions, praying fur th, repeal of the Union.
The Hon. Gentleman was interrupted by the Speaker,
the House being summoned to the House of Lords to
ear the Royal Assent given to the Bills which have passed
both House,.
The SPEAKER returned, and stated that the Royal
Assent had been given by Coaimission to several Bills, for
vhich see the Lords. _

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from fors.
,riourers, complaining of the conduct of two Magistrates
if the county or Cork. The Him. Gentleman stated that
ire had held the petition for some time, and had !mown it
to the Solicitor-General for Ireland, who had been air
good as to send him the report of Wirt- Miller, Inspecting
Magistrate for the district, and be believed that it com-
pletely bore out the allegations contained in the petition.
Mr. CRAMPTON defended the Magistrates ; he did
not know either of them personally, but be understood
they bore a very good character. He promised that an
enquiry should be made into the case by the law officers
of the Crown in Ireland.
Sir R. BATESON defended the Magistracy of Ireland.
Mr. HUNT said that Ireland was well off in having
law officers who paid such attention to the duties of their
office; such was not the way things were done in England.
After a long discussion the petition was ordered to be
printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for an account of spirits im-
ported from Guernsey and Jersey during the last year. He
asked whether any measure was to be brought in for the
repeal of the malt duty drawback, as recommended by a
Select Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he had given orders for the preparation of a Bill for that
purpose, which he hoped to be able to introduce in the
course of a few drys.
Mr. HLTME moved for an account of the expense of
the Court to be formed under the new Bankruptcy Court
Bill, the number of officers to be engaged, and their
salaries.

Mr. HUNT presented a petition from London, praying
for the release of the Rev. Mr. Taylor.
Mr. HUME reprobated the laws under which Mr.
Taylor was punished.
Lord ALTHORP thought any person might discuss his
own opinions if they were not dangerous to the morals or
religion of the people. In his (Lord Althorp'e) opinion
Taylor's were so, and he was properly punished.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the best way would have
been to let Taylor alone, for contempt would make such
opinions innocuous. He was of opinion that now the
best way would be to open the prison doors, and take no
farther notice of him.
Sir R. PEEL said that the prosecutions bad not been
pressed in the case of Carlile, and he did not regret that
such course had been pursued ; but that forbearance
was not to be drawn into the sanction of such publica-
tions. That would he to say, that for such publications
there was to be complete impunity, independent of all law.
Mr. LAMB reminded the House that the prosecution
was not instituted by the Government—(Hear)—and it
was rather hard to call ,on the Government to mitigate
the sentence, and without making out any case for mercy.
He admitted that before a prosecution for blasphemy was
commenced there ought to be strong grounds for it; but
he hoped that the law on that subject would not be repealed.
Mr. HUME observed that, if the attacking of the first
principles of Christianity were to constitute offence, what
was to be said of the sentiments of the Jews, the Mahome-
tans, the Hindoos, &c. This definition would leave mat,
tens in a very uncertain state.
Mr. TREVOR contended that Mr. Taylor's offence was
of the most virulent character—be had openly ridiculed,
in a public theatre, the Christian religion.
Petition (where from was never stated) ordered to lie
on the table.

CALL OF THE HOUSE.
Lord EBRINGTON asked whether the call of the
House for Monday was to be persevered in ?
Mr. O'CONNELL did not intend to press it—the ob-
ject for which Le proposed it, according to the feeling of
the House, had been answered. He should allo Titto be
discharged.
Lord EBRINGTON, in that case, should to-morrow
move that the House be called over ou Mond.y. He did
so in case an event occurred which he hoped would not
ensue ; but if it did, he should then deem it to be his duty
on Monday to submit a motion on the state of public affairs.
--.[We thought his Lordship said, the state of the public
" mind."]
MONEY PAYMENT OF WAGES BILL.

On the motion that this Bill he now rei d a third time,
Mr. HUME moved, u an amendment, that the Bill be
read this time six months.

The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 4
Against it. 6l
Majority —47
BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL

The adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill
was resumed, after the close ~f a discussion, which arose
on the complaint of several Members of the Opposiiion,
that sufficient notice, commensurate with the importance
of the measure, had not been given of the intention to re-
sume the subject this evening.
Mr. WILLIAMS, in replying to the objections put
forth against this measure by an Hon. and Learned Gen.
tletnan (Sir C. Wetherell), on &former occasion, said that
experience must have long ago convinced every impartial
man that this department of our judicature could not be made
effective on any other principles than those which formed the
ground of this measure. The present system was the most in-
efficient that could possibly be devised, and utterly unfit for ad-
judication of the least important matters. In proportion to the
importance of causes, we ought to have a Court of perfect action.
and of competent Judges. No man woul say that the present
Court was one of that description. It was not decent to the
mercantile interests that they should be under the nuinagement
of a young gentleman who, whatever might be his promises was
of no note whatever, and scarcely twelve months at thelsar ;u4
the liability to have such Judges appointed M_Fle2°l.ne rw‘as
Court was one of the attributes of the present systemsPse
of itself sufficient to make a reformation of
a suctdae n any oter
native on the Legislature. There was e
°the same time as a. prac-
thatost of the Commissioners
tibrsainngchEaofrrithsteelar,wass
was
fua
tJhuedugewactinwituf
the dignity which ought to at-
-a practice so incompatible w.—,aam• performance of its duties,
at one and the same time;, and what
Loch to the station, and erlihalialts &fence Was a thing im.
commissioners to have three distinct sub_
that to attempt to say sir "" beibre the Committee that it was
CAVA 19 COlifillei any ma of common
jinin:coottrseuimabliminlmletbrewain iy;:zav