The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-31 00:00:00

Rome was recognised by no European Power, and had
no legal authority to dispose of the public works of art
in Rome—(Cries of " Order, order")—and wished fur-
ther to know whether the Government of this country
would purchase any of them?
Lord J. RUSSELL said be supposed that, if imported,
such works of art would enter under the regular Cus-
toms' duties; but certainly the Government did not in-
tend to purchase any of them.
SUPPLY.
On the order of the day for proceeding with the con-
sideration of the postponed resolutions,
Mr. HUME moved, in pursuance of notice given—
That it appears by the report of the Board of Audit,
that the expenditure for naval services for the year 1847-
48, per Act of 10 and 11 Victoria, c. 107,
exceeded the grants (including appropriations
in aid) voted by Parliament, to the amount
of 323,787/. That the sum voted by Parliament
for the formation of the dockyard battalions, in the year
1847-48, was 20,0001., and. the actual expenditure
amounted to 72,3991. 19s. 3d., being in excess of the vote
52,3991. 193. 3d., and forms part of the excess. That this
House concurs in the opinion expressed by the Lords of
her Majesty's Treasury, " That with regard to this large
excess (for the dockyard battalions) the expenditure
was entirely within the control of the Board of Admi-
ralty ;" and, " that the proper course would have been
to have postponed the enrolment of men beyond the num-
bers provided for by Parliament." That " when a certain
amount of expenditure for a particular service has been
determined upon: by Parliament, it is the bounden duty
of the department which has that service under its charge
and control, to'lake care that the expenditure does not
exceed the amount placed at its disposal for that pur-
pose." The Hon. Member proceeded at length to ana-
lyse the proceedings of the Board of Admiralty in em-
ploying a greater number of men than sanctioned by
Parliament, and he called upon the House to ratify the
opinion expressed by her Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)
All he therefore wanted was, to strengthen the hands of
Government; and ho would strongly recommend Hon.
Members to look to the report of the Finance Commit-
tee of 1828, in which it was recommended therein no
extra expense should be incurred without the sanction of
the First Lord of the Treasury. There was, unfortunately,
a disposition in every department to keep the amount of
the expenditure up to the highest point; and it was with
the view of checking this extravagance that the Com
mittee sat and reported. He asked the House to concur
in the opinion expressed by the Ministers of the country.
He begged, therefore, to move the resolution as it appeared
upon the paper.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH seconded the resolution.
Mr. WARD said that his Hon. Friend the Member
for Montrose had discharged what was no doubt a public
duty with admirable taste and good feeling, and
he had administered, but in the mildest pos-
sible way, to the Lords of the Admiralty
the censure which he thought they deserved.
In most of the observations of his Hon. Friend he en-
tirely concurred. lie admitted the justice of those ob-
servations as a general rule; but, at the same time, he
was bound to state that the Admiralty would have pro-
bably acted otherwise had they known that so large a
number of men would have enrolled themselves
voluntarily is those battalions. The enrolment
of those battalions was determined upon hastily, perhaps,
and in the conviction that the most vulnerable parts of
the kingdom were left completely defenceless, it was
thought desirable to organize a suitable force :for the
defence of the coantry in case of aggression of any kind.
He (Mr. Ward) did not defend that policy. His Hon.
Friend had said they ought to postpone the enrolment of
additional men another year; but in that case they would
have a less efficient corps, and a deal of unnecessary expen-
diture. Itwas found afterwards that it would bo better
to keep t.O a double uniform, which would last five years
from the present time. In Copenhagen and many
other foreign parts, where the services of those
artizans from the dockyards had ben called in
requisition they were found to be most formidable
=egotists. The expenditure, no doubt, in the first
year Ind been large, but it would nut recur for some
time, is the men were provided with uniform which
would last fur five years ; they were exceedingly
well trilled, and their discipline had elicited the enco-
tniumof Sir Harry Smith.
Sirll. WILLOUGHBY said the question was, whether
there existed in this country any effective control over
the expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) And he had come to
the oonclusion that there did not; because it could be
shown that this expenditure took place in direct defiance
of the vote of that House, and without the knowledge of
the superior department of the Lords of the Treasury. He
put it to the Noble Lord, the First Lord of the Tree-
,. ury, whether any circumstance was more likely to cast
dkredit on his Administration than this case, which
time out a year and a half after the occur-
rence, because, it was a fact that the
Treasury knew no more of that expenditure
'.haa he (Sir H. Willoughby) did. The Appropriation
Act said that if they made application to the Treasury,
aed that there was a surplus to be spent on any branch
of the service, that the Treasury had the power to ap-
propriate that surplus to any given service. But in this
particular case there was neither an application to the
Treasury nor was there a surplus, because all the sur-
plus was gone. He was ready to admit, where a Go-
vernment could not help itself; such as a sudden war
arising, or provisions became dearer, that that might
alter the case. That might form grounds for a jus-
tification of the increase of the expenditure,
but he stated that the department in London
for a whole service, without the slightest hesitation, ex-
ceeded the vote of that House by 52,0001., and actually
did that without application to the Treasury, and when
it was well known that there was no surplus. His argu-
ment was this, that whit the Admiralty had done in this
case might be done b: any other department.—(Hear.)
He should cordially support the amendment of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose.
Sir F. BARING sail, though this was a most impor-
tant point, yet there vas no defect in the principle on
which the Admiralty acted on the occasion in question.
He hoped that he wa; only expressing the opinion of his
Hon. Colleagues abort him. This was not a question
of principle at all; iewas simply a question as to whe-
ther they should depart out of the usual course of busi-
ness for the sake of exwessing an opinion.—(Hear, hear.)
When this subject 'was first', stated it was at a time
of considerable pubic alarm. There was no disagree-
ment whatever as rtspected principle between himself
and his Hon. Friend it was only a matter of money.
Sir G. CLERK sad that he saw no reason why they
should depart out of the usual course of business. It
bad always been thecustom to vote the supplies with-
out any reference tothe peculiar plans in which they
were to be expendd, and so long as the Right
Honourable Barone held the position of First
Lord of the Admialty he had every confidence
that the money could be rightly applied ; but
there was one topic to which he begged to call their parti-
cular attention. If i was a convenience to refrain from
laying before the Muse the plans on which they intended
to proceed, Parliarrent had at least a right to insist that
when they had ones voted the money the amount should
not be exceeded, tut yet that seemed to have been most
lamentably the case during the last year.
Mr. WARD slid that he had distinctly stated the
other evening that an excess would accrue this year on
Nos. 1,2, and 17. But in one of these cases the Board
of Admiralty oval not properly accountable, as it was
only the agent of other parties.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that the object of his
Hon. Friend's resolution was not to give power to indi-
viduals, but to expree upon record the opinion of the
House that the systemhitherto pursued was wrong, with
parties against a simiinr course.
a view of warning ()the.
Mr. HERRIES said that there had been a studied
courtesy observed on the part of the Honourable Mem-
bers who brought forward the accusation, and of the
members of the Governkent who had spoken on the
question, but he (Mr. Heries) thought this forbearance
was not too well timed, old he would not hesitate to ex-
press his opinion that theAdmiraity
had in this case ex-
ceeded the power confered upon them by Parliament.
He admitted that sometiees it was necessary that an
excess should be incured, but that night he had
not once heard a reasoc to justify the increased ex-
penditure. He knew no case on which the
House might more fairly express its opinion
than the present; and if the Honourable Member
would not press his motion to a division he saw no object
in his bringing forward his motion at all. For his own
part he would support the notion of the Hon. Member.
Lord J. RUSSELL sail that, with respect to the
merits of the question, there could be only one opinion;
and that there was no difference of opinion between the
members of the Government and the Honourable Mem-
ber for Montrose, the fact of the Honourable Member
quoting the very words of the Lords of the Treasury,
was sufficient to prove. Therefore, although he could
not differ from the opinion or the language of the Right
Hon. Gentleman woo had just sat down, he deprecated
tho pressing the Home to a division, because such a di-
vision would, in his (pinion, be a reflection on the memory
of the late First Ler( of the Admiralty.
Captain HARRU and Mr. HENLEY thought that
the House ought to ee to a division.
Mr. R. PALMEI suggested that the Hon. Member
for Montrose shoull withdraw his resolution, on the
understanding that lo objection would be made by the
Noble Lord to its beng placed on record.
Mr. HUME could not have any hesitation in acceding
to such a proposifen. If her Majesty's Government
would state that ttey would agree to this resolution
being put unanimously on the books, he would have no
hesitation in withdrawing it at that time.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that with regard to the
resolution itself it only contained an opinion expressed
by the Lords of the Treasury themselves. His own
objection arose simply from a matter of feeling, and out
of respect to the late Lord Auckland, but he was in the
hands of the House, and would leave that entirely:to
them.

Mr. HERRIES, for his own part, although anxious
o have this resolution recorded, would have drawn no
inference derogatory t) the memory of the late Lord
Auckland.
Mr. HUME then withdrew his resolution, and the
original vote was then agreed to.
RATE IN AID (IRELAND BILL.—SECOND
RE ADING.—ADJOUR NED DEBATE.
Mr. NAPIER had come to the conclusion of giving
his vote against the stem' reading of this Bill. Whether
the House regarded the principle of this measure, or the
feeling which it had excited amongt the
most intelligent past of the Irish people, it was
a measure equally deserving their disapprobation
He Wished to consider this question in the first instance
as a question of principle. Ile meant to divide the ergs'.
meet into two parts ; the irst was the question of rating,
and the second was the question of taxation. With re-
gard to the question of rating, the principle involved in
this Bill was precisely this, whether a trate
should be imposed on the rateable property of any
union in aid of the rate of any other union, however
distant or disconnected. He would remind the En-
glish Members that this principle might be
one day applied to themselves. Now, he con-
ceived that ouch a pritiOiplO ae th§l

into a system of poor-laws was one which de-
manded the greatest consideration before it was
introduced, because if he examined it sightly, it in-
cluded every system of poor-law that had yet been
introduced into either England or Ireland.--
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") There was an attempt
made to establish an analogy between this case and the
statute of Elizabeth; but in his opinion there was no
ground for such an analogy. Unless the House
were ready to convert the whole of Ireland into one poor-
law union, it would be impossible to pass this Bill with any
consistency. The principle of the Act of Elizabeth was that
of local control and local superintendence. But the present
Bill said to a union in the extreme north that it should pay
for the maintenance of poor in an union in the extreme
south, and yet they were told that such a principle was
found in the statute of Elizabeth. Nothing was more im-
portant than to preserve the control of local superintendence
both with regard to the amount raised and the manner in
which it was disbursed.—(Hear, hear.) The small amount
of the money to be raised under the Bill, and the temporary
duration of the tax, had nothing to do with the question; if
the money were improperly levied it made no difference
whether the amount was a penny or thousands of pounds.
He warned English Members against assenting to a prece-
dent for taking away from them that superintendence of
their own poor which they had enjoyed since the time of
Elizabeth. It would be monstrously unjust to place the
property of one part of Ireland at the mercy of
individuals who might be guilty of the most extravagant
expenditure and whose acts they could not control. He
should now come on to the Poor-law Extension Act, a mea-
sure which introduced a new and a dangerous principle,
that of out-door relief. Doubtless that important change
was proposed with the best possible intention, but, once car-
ried out into practical operation, it became an essential con-
dition of its existence that one part of the country should
not be called on to pay for the other. If it were expedient
and just, as it unquestionably was both expedient and just,
that under the law of 1838 the districts rated to the poor
should be of limited extent, a fortiori, that principle became
more necessary when out-door relief was engrafted upon
the existing poor-law. There was nothing which so pe-
remptorily forbade going for rates beyond the union or
district as the practice of maintaining the able-bodied poor
outside the workhouse. Out-door relief might be all very
well in a state of high social advancement, and where per-
fect vigilance could be exercised; but he conceived that
they could not, without imminent danger, extend the liabi-
lity of ratepayers beyond the union or district. He
wished most especially to impress upon the House his
sense of the great importance of the measure with which they
were then called upon to deal—he felt it to be his duty in the
most solemn terms to assure the House that much depended
upon the manner in which they modified the law then before
them, and he hoped that in considering that modification
they would remember the number of authorities that were
against the Ministerial proposition—the Boundary Report
was against them, and the opinions of the best and most
impartial minded men in Ireland were- likewise adverse to
the plan. Nothing could be more evident than this, that in
proportion as the social condition of the community was
high so might unions of great extent be tolerated; but, un-
fortunately, the less advanced portions of Ireland, the west
and the south, contained the largest, while the north and
east possessed the advantage of smaller unions. With a re-
markable degree of Irish perversity, they had created large
unions where of necessity they must prove most mischievous
and permitted small ones to be formed where their existence
was the least beneficial.—(Hear, hear.) The effects pro-
ceeding from the law of 1847 had as yet been only partially
developed. It was a law that they well knew had been
forced on Ireland, being manifestly a piece of Ministerial
policy. Of all the consequences that had already proceeded
from this measure, the Archbishop of Dublin had foretold
the details with an accuracy more historical than prophetic.
But what did the report of 1834 say upon the subject of out-
door relief; he meant the report matte in England on the
condition of the poor in this country, and on the state of
the law relating to their relief; That report stated that the
funds available for the relief of the poor in England " were
applied to purposes opposed to the letter and still more to
the spirit of the law, and destructive to the morals of the
most numerous class, and the welfare of all; that the great
source of abuse was the out-door relief afforded to the able-
bodied on their account or on that of their families, given
either in kind or in money." The measure of 1838 esta-
blished no out-door relief for the Irish; it was reserved for
a subsequent piece of policy to force that evil upon the
country. If they forced, as they had done, an imperial law
upon the people of ,freland, it was rather too hard that they
should compel them' to pay a provincial price for it. He de-
nied altogether the principle that money should be paid by
unions which could exercise no control over its expenditure—
it was a policy alike unjust and unwise. The case of the poor-
law in England and in Ireland differed most widely. Here
it was a part (la very old system—every one took his property
with the full knowledge that it was subject to such a charge;
but for the first time it was superinduced on Ireland in the
year 1838; and one of the objects of all legislation in the
subject now should be to make every interest bear the bur-
den according to equitable principles; and Parliament was
bound not only to observe such principles, and shape its
legislation in accordance with them, but they were also
bound to pay due attention to the means of giving employ-
ment to the poor, as well as improving their condition ;
and he was not alone in making that assertion, for he could
quote in its support the authority of the Marquis of Lans-
downe, who expressed himself in the following terms :
" If ever there was a solemn pledge given on the part of
Government during the discussion which ended in the
passing of the Irish Poor-law last session, it was, that their
Lordships would, with reference to that law, by every means
in their power, encourage the employment of the labouring
poor of Ireland." Then he might advert to another point
with regard to Ireland, on which the same Noble Lord ex-
pressed himself strongly. When it was hinted that money
lent in Ireland for public purposes was not usually repaid
with much readiness, the Marquis of Lansdowne expressed
an opinion favourable to the manner in which repayments
had been effected, and gave some striking instances in sup-
port of the opinions which he entertained on that subject. it
was thought. by those best acquainted with Ireland, and who
most attentively considered the present state of that country,
that the present plans of her Majesty's Ministers were not
likely to prove successful ; theories like theirs must be
shivered at once in such a place as Ireland ; the land was
heavily encumbered, capital was deplorably deficient, the
surplus population was excessive, and the cottier system ge-
nerally prevalent. How, then, could plans applicable to
England be made to work in Ireland? But recently a fa-
mine Came, which gave the opportunity while it pointed
out the necessity for comprehensive measures, yet for those
they had still to seek; though the dispensations of Provi-
dence had forced the Government to do something—they
" saw the lightning and were afraid, but they had not vet
heard the voice." The present measure of the Govern-
ment afforded no hope—there was no justice in it. The
tenant-farmers would derive no advantage from it. It
would not benefit the clergy or the landlords. The people
might be kept alive by it, but nothing more. By it
the people would be more demoralized than ever—not
that he meant to say anything to the disparagement of his
poorer fellow-countrymen, for he regarded them with
feelings of the deepest compassion, and he was not without
hope that in England feelings of compassion would be vividly
awakened. England ought to have a high ambition with
reference to Ireland. He hoped she would soon feel that the
state of Ireland ought not to be a matter of money and fi
nance, but that, as regarded that country, she had a great
mission to fulfil. If by a rate-in-aid they merely kept Ire-
land from starving, they would shut out all hope of better
days, and he must say that if the money spent in relief
works had been applied to emigration or other useful pur-
poses, Ireland would now be in a much better condition
than she was. He had received a letter from a Noble
Lord in the west of Ireland, who stated that the unions
in his district were in a ruined and hopeless state,
that they had been brought to insolvency, and
rendered a burden upon the rest of the country
by the operation of the very Act which-was now to be up-
held by a rate-in-aid. Many of the landlords in that part
of Ireland had discharged their duties in a very praiseworthy
manner, and not a few of them had been r educed almost to
beggary. He knew one case of a gentleman, formerly pos •
sessing considerable property, who solicited and obtained an
appointment as poor-law inspector, and who soon afterwards
died from fever caught in the performance of his duties. He
(Mr. Napier) believed all reasonable men would agree with
him that the prosperity of Ireland was in a great measure de-
pendent on the application of capital and labour to agricul-
ture.—( Hear. hear.) They had been told upon high autho-
rity, that Ireland required three things :—first, repose from
angry differences and divisions; secondly, capital and labour;
and thirdly, private individual exertion. He would ask
them to test the present measure with reference to these
three points. There was a strong feeling against
this measure in a portion of Ireland distinguished
for the intelligence and integrity of the popu-
lation, who was not inclined to shirk any
fair liability. He hoped, however, that if this Bill should
receive the assent of Parliament, no passive resistance would
be offered to its being carried out.—(Hear, hear.) But still
the persons to whom he referred felt that this measure would
operate unjustly upon them, and its tendency would be to
weaken their affection and attachment to England. Did the
House think, then, that the Bill was likely to contribute to
the repose of Ireland, when it would give an opening to
those who were anxious to sever the connexion between the
two countries to encourage that agitation which, as Lord
Clarendon stated, had been the means of scaring away
capital from Ireland ? Then with regard to the question
of capital,—it was considered advisable some years ago to
make advances to Ireland by way of loan, but now that
such assistance was really required it was denied; and the
system of poor-laws would deter men from applying the
shattered remnant of capital that remained to the employ-
ment of labour, and would paralyze that private exertion
and enterprise which was so essential to the welfare of the
country. He contended, then, that if they adopted this
measure in conjunction with the present system of poor-laws
the ruin of Ireland was certain.—(Hear, hear.) He would
ask the House to reflect what must be the feelings of those
persona in Ireland who had done their duty in carrying out
the poor-law without any assistance from England, and who
had borne up against all difficulties, when they were required
to contribute to the outlay of remote districts, where they
knew the greatest maladnainistrations of funds had existed.
Was it wise to irritate a peaceable and industrious portion of
the population by forcing upon them such a necessity?
He
might be asked, "Then are the people to be left to starve?"
His answer was—they were not. But the question was, not
whether money was required, but out of what funds it should
be provided?—(Hear.) He would admit, for the purposes of
discussion, that money was needed, but they had no right to
take it out of any fund that might be most convenient. If
he saw a person starving and wished to relieve him, he had
no right to pick another man's pocket in order to do
so. The
question was, should this be an imperial grant or an Irish
grant? lle was anxious, so far from saying anything to
weaken the union between the two countries, to do all in his
power to give it strength and efficiency; but he must say
that, if Ireland were an integral part of the United Kingdom,
this should be an imperial grant. He claimed all the privi-
leges of the union, feeling that he was bound to submitao all
its liabilities; and until he repudiated some of these liabilities
they were not at liberty to deprive him of the privileges to
which he was entitled by reason of the union. It was said
that Ireland did not pay a full proportion of the imperial tax-
ation. His reply was, that Ireland had paid all she had been
asked to pay—(Hear, hear, and a laugh) —and he thought
that was a sufficient answer. If the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, when he proposed a grant to Ireland of 50,000/.
from the Consolidated Fund a short time since, believed that
Ireland did not pay her full proportion of taxation, surely the
Right Honourable Gentleman must have been guilty of
great injustice to the people of England in granting
such a sum from the Imperial Treasury. He believed at
that time the Government had not the slightest notion of
proposing a rate in aid; that was an afterthought.—(Hear,
hear.) When they found there was a determined opposition
on the part of the English people to granting money to Ire-
land, the Government thought, " Oh, but we can get the
English Members to go against Ireland. Some of the Irish
Members may resist, but we have others who will willingly
back us."—(A laugh.) "Rem, si possis recte,si non quocunque
modo rem." bet them impose upon Ireland whatever fair
liability she ought to bear; but, if they had delayed im-
posing a sufficient taxation upon Ireland, that was no rea-
son for visiting the land of that country with the penalty
proposed by this Bill. Such a course had been objected
to by the Right Honourable Member for Tamworth (Sir
liclmt reel), ig hip opee4 via Mr. R90114'11 ;119094 0;

--
the extension of the pror erty -tax to Ireland. The Right
Hun. Baronet then said that he could not see the justice
or equality-of the principle of applying such a tax to land,
and to land alone, in Ireland, so that the Lord-Lieutenant
would be exempt, while land alone would bear the burden.
A similar view was taken by the Noble Secretary for Foreign
Affairs (Lord Palmerston) during the same debate. The
Noble Lord said that one of the grievances of Ireland was
the want of capital for local improvements; and that the
imposition of the property-tax would diminish capital, while
exoneration from taxes would lead to the introduction of
capital. He (Hr. Napier) considered that a strictly similar
taxation of the two countries never could be contemplated.
They must enable Ireland to bear the charge, they must
raise her from her difficulties, and then they might saddle
her with a portion of the burden. If they placed upon Ire-
land a pressure which that country was not able to bear, they
might be assured that its effect would recoil upon this coun-
try. Last year it was said that Ireland was not fit to bear
the income tax. Wasaihe, he asked, more fit to bear it now.
—(Hear, hear.) He would now direct his attention to the
suggestions thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamwurth, and to the consideration of what
might in future be done for the improvement of Ireland. His
humble opinion was, that what was necessary for the present
difficulties of the distressed unions ought to come out of the
Consolidated Fund. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to sug-
gest, particularly with respect to the west of Ireland, which
doubtless was in a condition the most ruinous, if it continued
long, and therefore required some bold, wise, and compre-
hensive measures, that the accession of a new class of pro-
prietors, having means and wealth, would be sufficient to get
the country out of its difficulties; of course, he (Mr. Napier)
hesitated to express any Opinion which might appear to clash
with the views of an individual of so much experience, but
he must beg to say that he did not think that that suggested
measure would be sufficient to extricate the country from its
difficulties. Though many of the present proprietors had
been called only nominal owners, and though the mort-
gagees had been styled the real owners, yet when the
poor-law was passed the present proprietors were rated
as the real owners, and after they had broken down
under that burden it seemed a hard measure of
justice to say, though they were treated as respected
the poor-law as real owners, and though the mort-
gagees then escaped, that now they should be turned out of
possession, and that the incumbrances on the land should be
discharged out of the means of other parties, not in favour
of the poor owners, but in favour of capitalists and the
moneyed interest. He admitted that the removal of im-
poverished proprietors would be an important t-tep ; and his
comments only referred to the mode of effecting that object.
However, he was satisfied that a mere change of proprietors
was not the thing which alone would set the country up
again. In a union in the south of. Ireland (Kenmare) a
large portion of the property belonged to a Noble Lord of
high character and great liberality, in the posses-
sion of opulence and every quality which could
make a man personally amiable to his tenantry—he alluded
to the Marquis of Lansdowne. On that property there was
a tenant right, the middlemen had been removed an abate-
ment of rent had been made by the Noble Marquis last year
to the amount of 12 per cent., and everything had been
done to lead to improvement. What had been the result?
There were two neighbouring properties there, neither of
which had an ablebodled pauper in the union ; and three-
fourths of the pauperism of the union were supplied from the
Marquis of Lansdownes property. What would they do
with respect to property of that kind ? Would they change
the proprietor and get rid of the Marquis of Lansdowne ?
The fact was that the population on the property was exces-
sive, and though the Noble Marquis had got rid of the
middlemen, he had had too much humanity to turn out the
population, who, so long as the potato thrived, lived in an
extremely low animal state. Thus- it happened that
there was one gentleman in the neighbourhood who,
though he spent the whole of his income on his pro-
perty, had nevertheless to pay heavy rates to support the
paupers on the Marquis of Lansdowne's estates. This
showed that, for the purpose of improving , certain parts
of Ireland,- it was necessary to take measures not only
as respected insolvent proprietors, but also as re-
spected insolvent tenants. The work of improvement must
be carried on at both ends, and• any measure for raising up
Ireland ought to be accompahied by provisions for emigra-
tion, in order that the country might be relieved from super-
abundant population. At present the people were leaving
the country, but unfortunately it was the man of energy
and some means who went out, and it was the destitute that
were left behind. Nevertheless, this voluntary emigration
ought to teach the Legislature a lesson. The people were
taking to emigration as a natural cure, and it ought to give
Parliament the hint to work out that cure by proper pre-
cautions.—(Hear, hear.) This he knew could not be done
speedily. It must be a slow process; but if a wise and
comprehensive policy twas announced by that House, and if
Honourable Members would co-operate with one heart' and
spirit to raise up Ireland again, such a course would cheer
the population, and might be the means, under God, of
saving the country.—( Hear, and cheers.) He thought,
also, that many things connected with the amendment ot the
poor-law-might be done; and one arrangement appeared to
be desired by many intelligent men, namely, the reduction
of the area of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He likewise believed
that some means might be devised for advancing money on
approved security for the improvement of agriculture. He
reeretted that some observations of his had been misunder-
stood on a former occasion, and' that he had been erroneously
supposed to argue that Ulster should not contribute towards
the support of Connaught, because the former was Protestant
and the latter Roman Catholic. It was far from his wish,
in coesidering what course of policy would be beneficial to
his country, to say anything calculated to divide Irishmen
into opposing parties. All men, of whatever political party
or religious creed, should unite to effect the prosperity of
their common country; and he would conclude by addressing
them in the following words:--" Quare videte num dubitan-
dum sit vobis omni studio ad id opus incumbere, in qua
gloria nominis nostri, salus sociorum, vectigalia maxima,
tbrtunm plurimorum civium una cum republictt defendantur."
(The Hon. Gentleman sat down amid loud cheers from all
parts of the House.)
Sir R. PEEL—As in the course of the very able and tem-
perate speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—a speech
on which I will pass this eulogium, that it was worthy of his
own high character for ability and moderation—(Hear, hear)
—he has frequently done rile the honour of referring to opi-
nions expressed by me, and as I wish to take this opportu-
nity of making some observations rather with reference to
the general social condition of Ireland than to the particular
enactments of the measure now under consideration, I can-
not perhaps rise at a more opportune time than the present
to address the House. I gave my vote for the proposal of
the Government rather for the purpose of expressing an
opinion that we had a fair claim to call upon Ireland for
some separate and independent exertion, than for the pur-
pose of expressing an opinion on the particular merits of
that proposal in relation to other proposals that might have
been made. I still think, notwithstanding the speech of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that we have that claim'on
Ireland for separate and independent exertion. ( Hear,
hear.) My opinion is founded on a variety of considerations
—on the consideration of the'great and noble exertion wil-
lingly made by this part of the empire for the relief of Ire-
land, and partly on the consideration that Ireland has not
done her duty in respect to the repayment of her pecuniary
obligations to the Imperial Treasury on account of certain
advances connected with the operation of the Irish Poor-
law. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says." that Ireland
has paid all she Las been asked for;" but it is because I
totally differ from him on that point that I think we have
a fair claim upon Ireland on the present occasion for separate
exertion. We asked Ireland to pay 1,300,0001. which had
been advanced from the Imperial Treasury to enable her to
build her workhouses. Money had also been advanced to
this part of the empire for the purpose of relieving it from
the immediate charge of the workhouses. I have not heard
that England declined to pay those advances, but I am
afraid that Ireland, generally speaking, has repudiated the
debt.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not think the answer of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman on this head at all satisfactory. I'
think there was a clear pecuniary obligation, and that ought
to have been discharged by Ireland.---( Hear, hear.) I regret
she has not discharged it, because I think the refusal ope-
rates as a discouragement to coneider her case under circum-
stances when similar aid might be required. I voted also tor
the measure before the House, because I entertained a con-
fident belief that if Ireland made a separate and independent
exertion, she would induce Great Britain the more readily
to co-operate with her in those efforts which I believe ne-
cessary for her welfare.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") I did
not give my vote for this measure because I considered it
I any sufficient remedy for the evils under which Ireland
labours; and I think that the House is totally mistaken
if it believes that the last 50,000/, or the present 100,0001.,
or any rate in aid which you may impose on Ireland,
are measures at all commensurate with the evils of that
country.—(Cheers.) In many parts of the speech of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman I concurred. So far am I
from being inclined to raise any prejudices on the part of
Great Britain against Ireland, that I concur with him in
thinking that injustice has been done to Ireland. With re-
spect to the operation of this poor-law, I think that Ireland
has made a great exertion to meet the obligations imposed
on her.—(Hear, hear.) I think that England ought to bear
in mind that she is circumstanced with respect to the poor-
law in a manner totally different from Ireland; that that
was a new and unexpected imposition with respect to Ire-
land in 1838, and that the argument used in favour of the
continuance of impositions of that kind, namely, that the
property was purchased subject to those pecuniary obliga-
tions which had endured for centuries, did net apply to the
case of Ireland, which was called on to bear the expense
of a poor-law although t'm engagements as to property
had been made under another state of things.—(Cries
of "Hear, hear.") In 1838 Ireland was called on
to support a charge which she had not before
been subject to, and in the midst of unparalleled affliction
Ireland bore a burden last year of not less than 1,600,000. e
for the support of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) I think that a
great exertion.—(Cheers.) I heard it said the other night,
by some Hon. Gentleman, " Why should we support the
poor of Ireland, since, after having supported them, Ireland
rebelled against the supremacy of the Crown ?" I believe
that charge to be utterly unfounded.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland
did not rebel. The people of Ireland, generally speaking,
did not listen to the temptations held out to them ; and we
were enabled to suppress the rebellion with such compara-
tive ease, and without the loss of a single man, either of mi-
litary or police, because Ireland did not rebel, and because
the people of Ireland, suffering, as they were, from severe
calamity, did remain, generally speaking, faithful in their
allegiance to this country.—(Hear, and cheers.) I state this
for the purpose of attempting to propitiate this part of
the united kingdom towards that unfortunate country. I
speak, I own, almost overwhelmed by a sense of the ca-
lamity which Ireland has sustained, and of the magnitude of
the present crisis.—(Hear, hear.) My appeal to these more
favoured portions of the empire is an appeal, not merely on
the ground of justice—not merely on the ground of the na-
tural sympathy which we ought to feel with the miseries and
sufferings of our fellow-subjects; I believe those appeals of
justice and natural sympathy would prevail with this country
when the case of Ireland was well understood—(Hear)—but
my appeal to Great Britain is upon a still stronger ground--
upon the manifest consideration of her own true interest....
(Hear) —in attempting to mitigate the affliction under which
Ireland is suffering, and to find a remedy for the dreadful
evils which are existing there.—(Hear, hear.) With the per-
mission of the House, I will remind them of the situation in
which we stand now in entering upon this discussion. I
will remind them that in the course of last year we found it
necessary to commence the session by what is called a
Coercion Bill, by an Arms Bill, and, to conclude, with the
Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Hear, !rear.)
gave my cordial support to her Majesty's Government in the
introduction of those measures.—(Hear, hear.) I believe
those measures were forced upon them by a stern necessity.
I believe that all the evils of Ireland would have been ag..
gravated if those measures had not been passed. I refer to
o
to the
r
passing of them, not for the purpose of reflecting p
censuring her Majesty's Government—only for the purpose
of reminding the House of the unhappy condition of that
part of the United Kingdom. It is in vain for England
to think that by indifference or neglect she can relieve
herself from the burden (Hear, hear )—t hat burden will
press upon her with intense force; the tendency of it
will be to reduce districts of this country to the same condi-
tion with some in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At the moment
at which I am speaking I believe you have not less than
30,000 of the regular army in Ireland ; I think at the close, of
last year you had a force of about 32,000 men. In addi-
tion to that military force, you have, I think, about 5,400
pepAlogrii awl/ ill AgilitiCii PIM Yon 44y9 Rut 0
-

- • • -•
constabulary of. I believe, 12,000 or 13,000 men, the expense
of which is now borne not 'by Ireland —it is not a local charge
upon Ireland—it is borne by the Imperial Treasury. The
whole of the charge for that military force, therefore—the
constabulary, the pensioners, the regular army, a force of not
less than 47,000 men—is borne, not locally by Ireland, but
by the Imperial Treasury; whatever reducti .n you can make
in the amount of that force by the improvement of the social
condition of Ireland is a pecuniary- gala to this country.—
(Hear, hear)—if, in regard to a question of this kind, any
such consideration as that of pecuniary gain could urge you
on.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with that force and with these
coercive laws, what is the social condition of Ireland? I pre-
sume that the statement I have here—l read from a news-
paper—is an accurate aecount of what took place at the last
assizes at Clonmel. It is stated : - •
" The assizes for one division only of the county of Tip.
perary, and that the most quiet one (the southern), com-
menced this day, at ten o'clock, before Judge Jaeksou ; and
your readers may judge of the disorganised state of the
country when it is mentioned that there are no less than 279
persons for trial, and of these eighteen are charged with
arson, four with attacking a police barracks in arms, eight
with burglary, four with conspiracy to murder, and forty.
two with treasonable practices; fourteen are charged with
highway robbery, twenty-one with the awful crime of
murder, and fourteen with &hooting at with intent to murdei.
The prison, which has only 225 cells, has in it no less than
668 persons, including twenty persons already under sentence
of transportation. No wonder that Judge Jackson desig-
nated the calendar as one of the most awful he had ever
known. I did not hear yet if the treasonable cases will be
disposed of, but the murder cases are very heavy, and
several men are to be put on trial for the brutal butchery
of three bailiffs in one night, merely because they were keep-
ing some corn distrained for poor-rates."
Have I not stated enough earnestly to recommend to the
consideration of this portion of the empire the social con-
dition of Ireland--(Hear)—to lead us to address ourselves
to the state of Ireland in that spirit of forbearance and cone
ciliation which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman so
powerfully and justly recommended?-.(Hear, hear.) The
portion of Ireland within which the greatest distress prevails,
which chiefly comprises those unions that are generally
called "the distressed unions," because they require extrin-
sic aid, is included mainly in the provinces of Munster and
Connaught, but to those provinces I wish to add the county
of Donegal, because, from its geographical position, I think
it partakes more of the character of Connaught, and of parts
of Munster, than it does of the province to which it is imme-
diately attached. Now, the population of Munster in 1841,
when the last census was taken, was 2,396,000; the popula-
tion of Connaught amounted to 1,418,000; that of Donegal
to nearly 300,000. The total population of that district
—and that would be drawing a line I think from
Donegal to near Waterford—exceeded 4,000,000 in 1841.
So far, therefore, as numbers are concerned, their interest
and their welfare must be objects of the ,deepest anxiety.
—(Hear, hear.) Now, before I refer to the condition of Ire-
land as it exists at the present moment, influenced by recent
causes, namely, by the failure for four successive years of
that species of food upon which the Irish people mainly rely,
I wish shortly to advert to the condition in ten years ante-
cedently, when no such causes were in operation. I will re-
vert to a period, not only before the influence of famine was
felt, but a period—and Ido it purposely--when Ireland
was in full possession of that agricultural protection, the,
withdrawing of which the Honourable and Learned Gentle--
man seems to think has aggravated her condition. In the
full possession of it, what was the condition of the la-
bourer in Ireland? and What was the condition of landed
property? Till very recently, when wheat was, I think, at.
60a. the quarter, the duty upon the import of foreign corn
had been not less than 20s. ; it was reduced in 1842, but at
the period of which I have been speaking, so far as pro-
tection conferred benefit on Ireland, the law in force between
1828 and 1842 was the law by which the agricultural state
of Ireland was affected. Now, before the influence of famine
could be felt, and before protection was removed, what was
the condition of—l can hardly call them the labouring poor.
of Ireland—rather the destitute and suffering poor?—( Hear,
hear.) The report of Lord Devon's Commission is dated'
February 1, 1845; and what does it say? 1 wish to rely not
upon observations of my own, but upon the testimony of men.
connected with Ireland--men of the highest character—men,
conversant with the social condition of Ireland; that com-
mission included the names of Mr. Redington, Mr. Wynne,'
Mr. G. A. Hamilton, and Sir R. Ferguson; and it *mild be
impossible to name four gentlemen whoie testimony is more
entitled to consideration from their high character, and from.
their local knowledge.— (Hear, hear.) -They observe, that
although agricultural improvement was rapidly ad vancin,—
" We regret, however, to be obliged to add, in most parts of
Irelands there seems to be by no means a corresponding ad-.
vance in the condition and comforts of the labouring classes.
A reference to the evidence of most of the witnesses will.
show that the agricultural labourer of Ireland continues to-
suffer the greatest privations and hardships; that he con-'
tinned to depend upon casaul and precarious employment,
for subsistence; that he is badly housed, badly fed, badly
clothed, and badly paid for his labour." In the second.
volume of a very useful digest of the evidence there
is a reference to a very curious docuinent, which was
prepared by those who made out the census in 1141,-
dividing the houses of Ireland into four different classes,
the fourth-class consisting of "mud-cabins, with only
one room ." they ascertained what proportion of the in-
habited houses of Ireland were of that fourth class;—
and, observe this account could have no reerence to an-
thing posterior to the Ist of February, 1813. It is stateyd
that "it may be assumed that the fourth class houses are
generally unfit for human habitation ;" and yet, it would
appear, taking the best circumstanced districts in this re-
spect, in the county of Down, 24 7-10ths per cent., or about
one-fourth of the population, lived in houses of this class,
whilst in Kerry the proportion is 66 7-10ths, or about two-
thirds of the whole; and taking the average of the entire
population of Ireland, as given by the Census Com-
missioners, we find in the rural districts • about 43
per cent. of the families, and in the civic districts
about 36, inhabiting houses of this fourth class.—(Loud
cries' of "Hear.") But I should wish particularly to take
the proportion of such houses in those distressed unions that
are now depending for the support of a great number of the
inhabitant,, upon the pecuniary relief you afford them ;
and I find that in Donegal the houses of this class were
47 per cent, of the whole number; in Leitrim 47 per'
cent.; in Roscommon, 47; in Sligo, 50; in Galway, 52; in.
Limerick, 55 ; in Cork, 56; in Clare, 56; in Mayo, 62 ; and
in Kerry, 66. That was the state of affairs before Ireland
was visite l with that dreadful calamity, the first appearance
of which was in the autumn of 1845.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
what was the condition of Ireland with regard to landed
property and the tenure of landed property? There was
laid upon the table of the House a short time since a return
from the Register-office of the Court of Chancery for
certain years; lam now speaking of the position of the
landed proprietors, the nominal proprietors, and I
will not take the years 1845, 1846, or 1847, but
again I will go back to a time when there were heavy duties.
upon the import of foreign corn, and when Ireland had
whatever advantages protection could bestow. What was
the condition of the landed proprietors then, or at least
of several estates? I will take the year 1844. The number
of estates under the management of the Court• of Chancery
then was 874, their yearly rental being 748,0004 ;
the arrears, when the receivers were first appointed, were
34,500/.? when they had last accounted the arrears had in-
creased to 380,8001 • the' costs paid by the receivers were
17,3401.; and out of yearly rental of 748,0001. what do
you think was the sum annually expended in improvements
upon the estates?-2,5721.—(11ear hear.) With regard to
estates under the management of the Court of Exchequer,
I am obliged to take the years 1844-45-46-47, because the
returns for those years are given collectively, and not sepa-
rated ; the number of estates under the management of
that court in those four years was 448, their yearly rental
being 155,4004 ; the arrears when the receivers were first
appointed were 61,700/. ; when they had last accounted the
arrears were 171,800/. ; the law costs paid by the receivers
were 38,0374, and the amounts expended in improvements
r; was absolutely—nothing!—(Hear, hear.) At least, in the di-
. vision appropriated to the statement of the amount expended
in improvements I find no return whatever; every other co-
lumn is duly filled up, but there is nothing there.—(Hear.)
Now, are Gentlemen aware what is the condition of an es;
tate managed by the Court of Chancery?—(" Hear, hear,'
and a laugh.) Do you know what the term means?
( Hear.) I had—l can hardly call it good fortune—l had the
misfortune to hear an account of the process from a most in-
telligent Gentleman, given by him when a Member of this
House, Mr. Guinness—. (Hear) —and he certainly spoke with
the highest authority, for he was himselfa receiver under' the
Court of Chancery; but he was not influenced by any parti-
ality to give testimony unduly favourable to its manage-
ment. He said he was receiver for an estate in. Cork and Tippe--
rary, the rental of which exceeded 2,000 a-year; it had been
under his care for 21 years ; it was partly in that county re-
' specting which I have already given a melancholy detail of
crime; in the course of the 21 years not one shilling had
been expended to improve the condition of the tenantry..
He gave an account also of an estate in Mayo; the rental
was 4,500/. a-year; the estate had been nine years under,
his management, and 1681. was all that had been expended
to improve that estate.—(Hear, hear.) There was an-
other estate in Westmeath, the rental of which was 10,6001.,
and that estate had been ten years under his management;
he had received from it more that 100,0004, and out of that
sum not 600/. had been expended in improvements during•
the whole period._(Hear, hear.) But what effect did even •
that 6001. produce? Nothing bad been expended till within'
the last three years, in each of which their had been 2001
laid cut, and that paltry outlay enabled him to recover
2,600/. of old arrears on the estate, 6COL in the flrst ear, I
think, and 1,000/. in each of the other two. I have rey ferred.
to the state of things before 1844 fer the purpose of suggest-
ing this inquiry--whether such a condition of landed pro-
perty can be of any benefit either to the owner, the encum-'
brancer, or the country?—(Hear, hear.) To this state of
things in Ireland, with regard to the great mass of her popu-
lation, and with regard to the tenure of landed property,
there supervened the greatest calamity which in the history
of mankind ever visited a country—l mean the four succes-,
sive failures of that species of subsistence on which the great
mass of the people of Ireland lived.—(Hear.) What in-
fluence had that great calamity upon the condition of the,.
people? I think what follows is a most faithful account of
2
the condition in which the first year of famine found the
people of Ireland in the west and south :
ee
only root they had been
Clustered in villages, a plot of ground attached to their ,
cabins, and a portion of a field hired by conacre potatoes,
wasash
theirnt
am
wretchedeans ofli veinneg:,
accustomedyainndthwehbeenstthofe
ftaimmeinsethcztei'mr
ee,xainsdtelie
th
be-
came a mass of rottenness,theyesubsistence
factures left without
factures to fall back upon,
with no
eto cultivate: employment, no menu
mplo. for food
and without resources, fit objects for the aid provided by the
law now in force for the relief of the poor. Such form a bounty of the empire, 'the charity of the benevolent, and the
relief."
nu-
merous class of thereecfiptiheentpsooofr
That is a description en by this calamity
was another who lived in villages. But there class a little
higher in the social scale, consisting of those who had small
holdings of land, to the extent of three or four acres:—
"Another class consists of those who had a small holding
of land, two, three, or more acres, or who, with several others
had a small farm in joint tenancy (the rundale system), the
allotments being chequered, a Patch here and a patch there
without a fence, a slight difference in level being made to
distinguish the plots. Holding in common, so all their ope-
rations were in common; none tilled his land before his neigh-
blur, and on certain fixed days the work of the seasons
began. The tillage was of the rudest description ; green
crops were unknown ; a crop of potatoes, then of oats, pota-
toes again, oats, perhaps barley, and often two or three grain
crops in succession, was the course pursued, except near the
towns. A cow or two and some pigs formed the stock; the
potato produce fed the family, the grain paid the rent; the
former was swept away by the blight, but aid by public
works and the succeeding measures of relief enabled many of
the poorest to struggle on for a time." Now we come to
1848 :—" Some of the potatoes which did not decay were
hoarded for seed, and planted; the next failure was partial,
the patotoes would grow again. Courage was acquired at
the thought; and, in 1848, the most extraordinary efforts
were made to put down a crop. Potato-seed was sought for
with avidity, and high prices paid for it. It was a last effort
In some cases the cow 9nd every available article were sold
to put a crop in the ground. Many staked their all on this
cherished root, and lost—the blight came, and more wither.
•
ing ruin than before."—(Hear, hear.)
This was the condition of the people of Ireland at the period
we are referring to-they staked their all on the cultivation
9f the pogo ; Mos 1491§