The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

materially changed—there is a collision between the House
of Lords and the House of Commons. I know what war
is and you do not. I told you I had no intention of
bringing forward a measure of Reform, but now the state
of things is most materially changed; but don't allow large
meetings, such as that of Birmingham, to intimidate you
I —be bold, he stout, be determined. But if the associa-
tion be once formed, you must give way, then there is
/linger of war, and agitators are abroad; and I kenaw
what war is, and I tell you, you are in a different situation
from that in which you before stood, and I will drag you
through the mire after having before bespattered you."
It is just possible that the Noble Duke might bold such lan-
guage. Is it not just possible that a Right Hon- Gentle-
man in another place might say something of the same
sort ? He might say "my opinions are not altered—l
am really opposed to the Bill, but there is danger, and it i 5
only to danger thet I would yield ; and, therefore, I re-
COTIIMPIKI you to make concessions to the dangerous spirit
of the times:" Surely, my Lords, you cannot fail to ask
yourselves thitt-ais it not much more dignified to yield be-
fore there is danger than afterwards ? As respects this
House, the present is now a virgin question. If you agree
to Reform now, it becomes the spontaneous act of this
morec
I!o use
consistent
I inquiwrei
tefh
tyhoeur
dignityLordships,ft
h iiss
House
ootussue: ha
nad course
to prove more advantageous to oursElvee? There is no
shrinking from this truth--either that you must take the
Bill now, or be forced by circumstances to adopt hereafter •
a measure full as efficient, and, perhaps, less acceptable to
this House; whereas, if the proposed change be adopted
before the danger arises, all idea of int. midation will be
out of the question.—(Cheers.)
andr
neaDd
guakeepeofecWhEtLoLo.l!Nd
eGr
;TdiOnrisT.ihileeNoble B' -bp h
ion " That the
more inciinsistenteiest-
petition do lie upon
t e table," the Noble Baron referred to a debate, going
practiceof this
on, I may say, upon a subject now under the consideration
of Parliament; and he also referred to a debate on a subject
respecting which I rather thought that, for once in my. •
life, I possessed the approbation of the Noble Baron. This
discusaleol has now lasted some time ; but, during the whole
of it, I ternalined silent. I did not wish to draw your
attention to the Bill now on your Lordships' table, upon
art occasion merely of preventing a petition. I have not
said one word; I have net uttered a cheer during the pre-
sent debate, and I do not see how my sentiments can with
propriety be brought into discueeion. Ido not deny that
I always felt strongly the attempts made to intimidate your
Lordships; but for that meeting which has been described
in• the paper,produced in this House, and for all such
meetings, I feel the greatest contempt ; and I am
perfectly satisfied that the House is superior to
any intimidstion founded on the proceedings of any
such assemblages. I feel no concern for all these
t'sreats, whether proceeding from Birmingham or elsewhere.
I havi always thought, and I think still, that the law
too strong to be overborne by such proceedings. I know
further, that there does exist throughout this country a
strong feeling of attachment to the Government of the
country as by law established. I know that the people
look up to the law as their best means of protection, and
those lawii they will not violate io any manner to ea-
danger the Government of the country, or any of its es-
tablisher) institutions. lam afraid of none of these, but I
will tell your Lordships what I itm afraid of. lam afraid
of revolution, and revolutionary measures, brought in and
proposed by his Majesty's Governmenrt.—(Long continued
and enthusiastic cheering from the Opposilini Benahes.)
I assert, and I believe that history will bear we out in the
assertion, that there has been no revolution in this
country, or any great ehanee, which has not been hr /tight
ab ,nt by the Parliament, and generally by the Govern
in,nt introducing measures, and carving tlieua throttle;
by the influence of the Crown. I wool l therefore nt/ eat
your Lordships to do all you can to defeat this measure—
use every m.ans of resistance which the just exe.eis• of
your privileges will warrant, and trust to the good sense
of the country to submit to the legal and just decision you
come to.—(Cheers )
The Earl of CARLISLE said that none of the revolu-
tions which Occurred in this country were b. ought about
by Parliament. " He wished to inquire from the N.ode
Duke who had just sat down, if he meant to s th it the
Rao:lllation of the Church of tt is country wes a Parlia-
ffientary Revolution, or if the Revolution of ttifete was a
Parliamentary Revolution, and were the re any other Re-
volutions besides those ?
The Earl of WINCHILSEA could not suffer the un-
warrantable attack made upon a Noble Duke near him to
pass without notice. He could nut allow without notice
that any Noble Lord should say of the Noble Duke that
he would aim at obtaining office by a sacrifice of principle.
(Cries of No, no," from the Treasury bench.) A more
unjustifiable attack than that made upon the Noble Duke
lie had never txtl
,V6A-rouses)
fered from that Noble Person upon a great and memora ale
occasion, yet he gage him tile fullest credit for perfeet
sincerity, and for an earnest wish to maintain the peace
of the country. It was with much regret that he had now
to acknowledge that he assisted in removing that Noble
Duke from office, and putting in place of him and his col-
leagues a Ministry deserving neither the confidence of Par-
liament, nor the respect of the country—a Ministry ready
to sacrifice the dearest rights and interests of the country,
and incur the hazard of overturning all the established in-
stitutious from a too great facility in yielding to clamour
and popular excitement, rather than listening to the dic-
tates of good sense and sound policy. The Noble and
Learned Lord upon the Woolsack bad laid down a doc-
trine to which he (Lord W.) could not subscribe, namely
—that to refuse those taxes which the necessities of the
country and the honour of the Sovereign demanded, was
no breach of the public peace—be would say it was trea-
son ; and if the Government did their duty, they wool
instantly prosecute the persons accused of such an offence.
Lord HOLLAND rose to explain—He did net cast any
imputation upon the sincerity of the Noble Duke—neither
did be raise any question as to his motives for accepting or
rejecting office. The Noble Lord then recapitulated the
speech given above.
Earl GREY—I wish to vind:cate myself from the
imputation of having made, upon the presentation of a
petition, a second speech upon the Bill now upon your
Lordships' table. lam sure it will be felt that I did not
say more than the occasion called for. There is another
topic upon which I think it necessary to say a few words.
I think the Noble Earl opposite will, upon reflection, be
induced to think, that in the heat of debate lie has gone
further than be meant. lam not sued those who object
to observations upon public men. I admit that be, be-
lieving we deserved to forfeit the confidence of Parlia-
ment, is fully entitled to say so. If he had not gone fur-
ther, and said, that I belonged to a body which bad for.
feited its claim to public respect, I should had no right to
complain; but I do think that Parliamentary usage affords
no justification for his saying that we are ready to sacrifice
the dearest interests of the country to retain our situations.
That, I am sure he will, upon reflection, see; is against all
Parliamentary order. What, I would desire to ask the
Noble Earl is this—does he mean to say, that for the
purpose of retaining our situations we are prepared to
sacrifice the rights and interests of our country ?
The Duke of BUCNINGIIAM and the Earl of Wirt--
climsrea rose at the same moment, and for a considerable
time the calls for each appeared pretty equal, but the
Noble Duke eventually succeeded in obtaining a hearing.
He was sure that the Noble Earl merely meant that Mi-
nisters were ready to sacrifice what he (Earl W.) consi-
dered—not what they themselves considered to be, the
rights of Englishmen.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA—I never meant to impute
to the Noble Earl opposite the sacrifice of any principle
which he never professed. Individually I feel the highest
respect for the Noble Earl. So great was my respect for
him, that I did feel the strongest inclination to support his
Government, for I felt quite sure that he would be the
last man in the country wbe would retract a word he had
uttered, or swerve from any principle he professed, and the
.Noble Duke near me has correctly interpreted my senti-
ments. I did mean to impute to the Noble Earl merely
the intention to destroy what I conceive to be the dearest
rights of the country.
Earl GREY expressed himself perfectly satisfied.
There was then a very general call for the Order of the
Day ; but
Lord HOLLAND said there were still several petitions
to present.
The Earl of DUDLEY was understood to agree to the
continued reception of petitions.
Lord ROLLE rose to ask a question, but could not ob-
tain a hearing.
Lord HOLLAND had a petition to present from the in-
habitants of Bond-street ; it wan signed by 101 persons ;
there were little more than 200 householders in the street,
and a large proportion of them were females, so that the
inhabitants of Bond-street had now relieved themselves
from the reproach to which they were liable amongst their
fellow-citizens of being unfriendly to Reform.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said his mention ofßend-etreet
and St. James's-street was purely accidental. He merely
referred to them as they presented themselves. first to his
particularly ad-
l'lvaerroen will only men-
,m_eirriLsedo—rtdonfißoteoffoirr.ormiNsuppiLoslifngthtehaisit.thhieehye
tuintitlatebiHtaoriutsseotfoe-umcilorroest
street,a
lion the particular street in_riclha poses an opinion
am ready to pledge my-
to prevail unfriendly to th 11 11
sp,eltfi
( thatfrolms
thhael rimajoritytig shown
e