The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

NAPLES.

Mr. URQUHART wished to ask the First Lord of
the Treasury whether the Cabinet were aware that Sir
William Parker was sent for to Naples by the British
Minister, when they stated to Parliament that he went
there of his own accord?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman had
confused together two different transactions. The
question which was asked in August last was, he un-
derstood, as to whether Admiral Parker had
gone to Naples in consequence of the order of
her Majesty's Government, and whether he had
gone there for the purpose of interfering with the expe-
dition which was about to start from Naples to Sicily;
and he thought he gave then a sufficient answer to the
question. But the Honourable Gentleman now re-
ferred to the request of Lord Napier to Sir W.
Parker to go to Naples in the month of February,
and when he (Lord J. Russell) answered the question in
August last the transactions which took place in Fe•
breary never entered into his mind. At the time the
question was asked Admiral Parker had left Naples and
gone to Palermo, and he naturally supposed it
had reference to that time. He (Lord John
Russell) remembered that when Lord Tinto was at
Rome he was informed that Sir W. Parker intended
going to Naples, and he asked the Neapolitan Minister
if it would be agreeable to the King of Naples that the
British squadron should make its appearance there, and
he was informed that the King did not think
that its appearance would in any way militate
against his interest. He (Lord J. Russell) certainly un-
derbtood the question to refer to recent transactions, and
not to what occurred in February.—(Hear, bear.)
I'UBLIC HEALTH, &c., IRELAND.

Mr. SADLEIR asked whether it was the intention of
the Government to introduce a Health of Towns Bill fur
Ireland, and a Bill to amend the Registration of Births,
Deaths, and Marriages?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he would give the Hon.
Gentltman au answer on Monday.
POLICE RETURNS.

Mr. FREWEN complained to the House that certain
returns relative to the rural police, which had been laid
on the table of the House, were not given in the form
which he desired.

Sir GEORGE GREY said, if the Hon. Member
would point out in what respect the return was defective,
he (Sir George Grey) would endeavour to supply the
omission.

The motion was then put and agreed to that the House
at its rising d adjourn till Monday next.
LAND ISWROVENIENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE-
LAND) BILL.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill being reed,
Major BLACKALL said he was far from under-
rating the intention of this Bill or the advantages to
Ireland likely to accrue from it ; but if the House wished
to give continuous employment to the poorer classes in
Ireland, they must give it by encouraging those who
were occupiers of the soil to become their employers at
money wages, and that could not be effected by giving
grants of money from time to time. Owing to the
poverty of the country, it was absolutely impossible
that those proprietors could at present give the assist-
ance which was necessary. He would ask that the
scope of the Bill should he increased. The Bill at pre-
sent was entirely confined to draining, fencing, making
roads, and things of that sort. The farms were being
quickly consolidated, and thegreat difficulty in those farms
so consolidated was that there were neither farm-houses
tor buildings applicable to the new state of things.
He then read au extract from an Irish paper—the
leinster Express—stating that the cultivation of
flax was extending, and recommending those who
had not used a portion of their land for that
purpose to do so, and that the crops of last year had
proved very valuable. The same was the case in the
Queen's County. It would be recollected that last
year, or the year before, agricultural instruc-
tors were sent out to Ireland by the Royal
Agricultural Society, and the Marquis of Clan-
ricarde had devoted a considerable sum to the
expense thus created. If the improvement of
the land was set about in earnest, the people
would have spades in their hands instead of
atone hammers. The Hon. and Gallant Member then
read extracts from Skibbereen and other places, showing
that the improvement of the land was proceeding,
and the necessity of affording the means of employment
to the large number of people who were starving.
The arterial drainage of Ireland was, in a measure,
allowed to be of the utmost importance. Large sums of
money had been advanced by this country for
that purpose, but unfortunately, when the works
would have been of great assistance to the people,
they were stopped, and now, it was only proposed
to vote a small sum for their continuance. Formerly
this mode of drainage was carried on with the aid of
private capital advanced upon the security of the lands
drained, and he really could see no reason why the
same system could not be resorted to now.—(Cries of
Hear, hear.") Return to that system, and then
nstead of advancing money without limitation, Govern.
ment would be enabled to take security for the repay-
ment of their advances. One word before he sat down
in connexion with the railways. No doubt such works
would prove of the utmost advantage to Ireland, and he
only regretted that the promoters of such undertakings
in all parts of the country had not received more en-
couragement and support at the hands of the Govern-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to impress
upon the House that all these measures were quite in-
adequate to meet the wants of Ireland, and the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland would delude
himself if he thought so._(flear, hear.) The eject-
meats now going on required some remedy, for, he would
ask, what good results tollowed the passing of the Bill of
last year? Was it the intention of the House to depopu-
late Ireland, and by that means provide a remedy for the
evils which afflicted that country, then were they pur
ening the right course. But he did think the occupation
of the soil in reasonably sm all holdings was the great remedy
and that could not be done until protection was given those
ctccupiers from the harshness and injustice of evictions
as now carried on. Persons who spoke of English capital
not going
to Ireland, and, therefore, productive of no
good, were mistaken, for there was capital enough in
Ireland, if any proper vent could be given to it ; but,
unhappily, at present the of
from the country. The HognreaGter parttlit was taken
then read en
address from the British Relief Aenssoccintaatnion, in which it
was plainly and broadly asserted that no good would
follow until security given to occupiers of land. Ile
concluded by avowingwhais conviction that the Bill would
be totally inefficient,
The
dmentaof the EXCHEQUER ob-
served that the amendments s of by his Hon. and
Gallant Friend, the Member for Longford, were already
disposed of in the diseu
place. With regard to Wskitchs which
previously took
at had been stated on a fer-
mer evening about a char,geha received a communof 32/. being made for
d i
draining an acre of land, h
tion on the subject, and could onlobserve that if the
Hon. Gentleman who made charge, or his agent,
had taken ordinary precaution i Ittliaperintending works
ve occurred. The
on his own property, that could notil
works alluded to were given under tha Relief Act or
what was commonly known as Mr. Labouchere's letier
and an overseer appointed, who lived on the Hon G
tletnan'A own property; but when an offs;; fiOna tt'lane.
Board of Works visited the place he found the overseer
and his man sitting under the hedges, doing nothing,—
(A laugh.) That was the way in w hich things dune in Ireland—and surely if Gentlemen horeswideertel
on the spot will not look after these things, how can a
Government do so?
Mr. ORMSBY GORE concurred with the Right Ron.
Gentleman that the work was done under Mr. Lebow-

chere'a Act, but neither he (Mr. Gore) nor his ~goro,
knew anything of the work until they remivrd a bid
from the Government fcr 2001., being at the rate of 32/.
par acre for drainage. But that w:ts not .alt, for 1501.
was at terwards charged him :o: draini;;g nine acres and
a halt'. The Hon. Gentleman then read a communica-
tion he received from Ireland, in which it wa's stated
that 24/. was char,i,:ed for the drainage of three-
quarters of 811 acre. Tile letter aLio stated that the
Whigs were determined to ruin Ireland, and charged
the Board of Works with employing a host of incapa-
hles. The Government, when they undertook works
ought to be compelled to finish them; and it was not
fair, as in the case of the drainage of the
Shannon, that those who were at the source of the
river should be compelled to pay for works which
yielded theal no benefit,
Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR felt bound to bear his testi-
mony to the excellent manner in which Mr.'Labouchere's
Act was carried out, and believed that tie greatest ad-
vantage must be derived to Ireland from the pasting of
the Bill before the House.

Mr. F. FRENCH condemned the system pursued by
the Board of Works in Ireland, where in every ease they
exceeded, by at least one-third, the estimates of the
works which they undertook to perform. it was there-
fore material to keep a cheek on the proceedings of that
body. What be objected to was, that this loan was not
sufficient to lay the loandation for future improvement.
He should extend the means of communication through
every one of the distressed districts. It was calculated
that 50,000 acres of the best arable land in Connaught
was now lying waste. If the means of cultivating that
and similar districts in Ireland were forthcoming, it
would open up a mine of wealth to that country.
Mr. HORSMAN said that when they considered the
slight
stesults that had followed hitherto all their mea-
sures for the relief of Ireland, they were bound to give
the fullest reflection to the plans of amelioration now
suggested from various quarters. He believed that the
people of England would willingly and cheerfully give
what they could spare for the relief of the starving po-
pulation of Ireland, but they would require that what
they advanced should bo distributed upon economic
principles and in a manner really beneficial to the peo-
ple of Ireland. The mortality of that country was
greatly increasing, and their physical condition was daily
deteriorating. In proof of this the Hon. Gentleman read
several extracts from the 7 imes and other newspapers.
He saw a letter addressed to a clergyman the other day,
from which it appeared that the people were dying
in awful numbers from want, and that the sources
of industry were entirely wanting. A corre-
spondent of the Honourable Member for Dorset-
shire (Mr. Bankes) stated that upon driving through a
part of the country a short time ago, he was obliged to
stop his car five or six times in the course of the day, to
remove the dead bodies out of the way. The sight of
multitudes of the pt,or dying in this way was shocking
to humanity. Judging, however, from the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) the other night, one would suppose that the state
of Ireland was improving, and by no means so had as
represented. But it appeared from the best evidence
that in many districts the landlords were entirely
ruined, and the proprietors could find no tenants.
In may districts, such a thing as a healthful, able
man, could not be found. From a combination
of evils, the country generally was in almost
a state of permanent depression. Seeing that these
were not merely temporary causes of depression, it was
idle for any one to write from Ireland, giving accounts
of isolated cases of improvement. Now compare
this measure with the evil it was intended to cure. They
had to aim at the immediate preservation of life, and of
healthful agricultural operations; and •in establishing
kindly feelings between the two countries; but this loan
was only to employ the able-bodied man. The weak
and disabled would not profit, and were only reserved
for more cruel distress and misery. As to the success of
agricultural operations, in the present state of things it
was quite out of the question. 'There was not one single
transaction connected with land in which they were not
harassed and trammelled by imperfect legislation, by
isolated and unconnected measures, of which that now
under the consideration of the House was one, and
therefore he protested against it. They wanted a
system based on a statesmanlike policy, and not a se
ries of little measures which would not benefit Ireland,
and would ultimately be a cause of ruin and oppression
to England.

Sir G. GREY said that the measures of Government
did not deserve the censure cast upon them by the Hon.
Member. The money they had advanced from time to
time had not been thrown away. At that moment
twenty thousand able-bodied men, representing a million
of the population, were now employed by the means
adopted by the Government, and so satisfactory were the
results which followed from the loans they had advanced,
that a good use had been made of the money, and in
some districts the greater part of it had been repaid.
The improvement was as yet of a limited character, be-
cause the whole sum at the disposal of the Government
was not expended, but when it was, the benefits resulting
frown it would be greater than was anticipated. The
Hon. Gentleman had also stated that there was not a
proprietor in the west of Ireland who was in a state
to avail himself of these loans, and had quoted the
evidence of Captain Hamilton, to disprove the state-
ments of Mr. Bourke. When Mr. Bourke, in March
last, gave evidence as to the destitution which existed,
he was a most credible witness in the estimation of
the Hon. Gentleman; but when iu April the same gen-
tleman states that there are prospects of improvement,
he would not believe his evidence.—(Hear, bear.) With
respect to the evidence of Captain Hamilton, all he would
say was, that even in the union of Balliva there were
landlords who were availing themselves of these ad
vances to employ labour, and in other distressed unions
the proprietors were applying fur loans, and what was to
hinder the House from granting these loans, in the face
of past experience, that they had been employed safely,
and duly repaid? —(lltar.) The Hon. Gentleman asked
where was the use of employing these walking spectres?
Why, the use of these grants was, to prevent others from
becoming walking spectres, and from falling into the
same situation, by means of profitable employment; to
give the landlords the means of employing the people
at the same time that they improved their own estates,
and added to the wealth of the country. He would not
follow the Honourable Gentleman into the other parts
of his speech, much of which had no reference to the
measure before the House, but was merely an explana-
tion of his vies% sas to the nature of the policy which
ought to he pursued in Ireland. He would only say
that the Hon. Gentleman misrepresented the Govern-
ment when he stated that they said legislation would do
nothing. All they said was, that legislation could not
do every thing, and that though they could remove ob-
stacles, and grant facilities for the improvement of the
country, there was a spirit of determination to take ad-
vantage of these facilities on the part of the people.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman in this very unfair
attack upon the Government had said much that had co
application to the Bill before the House, upon which the
Hon. Gentleman should have taken the sense of the
House, if he was opposed to it, and not have been con-
tented with a protest. If he had done so he (Sir G.
Grey) believed there would have been a large majority
in its favour.

After a few words from Mr. HORSMAN in ex-
planation, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to bo committed on Monday.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill being rend,

Mr. STAFFORD said he morely rose to state briefly
but most cordially his entire approval of this Bill. If
anything could do good to Ireland, it would be a mea-
sure of this kind. He thanked the Government for
bringing it forward, and earnestly hoped it would pro-
duce all the benefits they wished to confer by it.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL also briefly expressed his ap-
proval of the 1111, as calculated to be of real benefit to
Ireland, though perhaps some of its details might re-
quire amendment.
Mr. GROGAN approved of the object of the Bill, and
did not rise to detain the House by any remarks upon
its details. He wished, however, to state that more was
required than this Bill. There were at present more
estates for sale in Ireland than could find purchasers,
and until some radical change was effected in the
machinery of the poor-law, he did not believe that any
permanent confidence could be given to either landlords
or tenants.

Sir H. W. BARRON said that
ndr
n recently an estate had
beenhil sold
as
hadin Lublin
stated,6o per n its
ot rbeealsovladluaet,
while, otherseet, u
coulde
all. He merely stated this fact, to show that merely
facilitating the sale of incumbered estates would do
little or nothing—they must stop the drain caused by
the poordaw on estates, before they could induce per-
sons to embark capital on land which was likely to
prove a source of expense to its purchaser. These were
hints on the plans which had been suggested by the
for Member M embTeerwfhoorshTamworth, and by the Hon.
which were well
worthy
s°sfenttliael the Government, and abso-
lutely of any practical and
efficient remedy for Ireland.aip
did not object to the
Bill in itself, but would earnestly'''
impress upon them the
attention of
necessitycolooe ol
pruatiitiEnnoaolomideaosoutres.
concurhi with many of his
countrymen in the approval they
m a bestowed on this
more estates into a Bill. He thought that to bring
mar-
ket which was already oversteeked most tnis-
chievously.—(Hear.) If the law was defective,tiugdid
they not amend it, instead of suspending thwlhy
three years, and investing a power in the hands ofawfor
tri-
umvirate of Commissioners, who would have uncontraoll
power over every man who had borrowed money on his
estates.—(ilear, hear.) Unless he knew who these three
Commissioners were how could he have confidence in
them? For instance, if the Hun. Member fur Manches-
ter (Mr. Bright), was one of them, with his known opi-
nions on the subject, how could the Irish laudlords have
any confidence in him? There was no guard in the
Bill against the abuse of their powers; there was no
power of appeal, exeopt that given by the 20th, clause,
which, after all, was worth little, seeing that it had first
to be sanctioned by the Commissioners themselves. One
excuse the Bill WV.}, that landlord 3 were either unable
or unwilling to emp!oy labour; but the worthlessness of
that excuse was shown by the fact, that the Irish pro-
prietors had borrow( d two millions for reproductive la-
bour, that a Bill for further advances wes now before
the House, and that, and that, as stated by the Right
Honourable Baronet, there were now more than 20,000
persons employed by these means, in addition to the
ordinary labour of the country. Ile denied
alt.:get her that the proprietors were bound to
provide employment for the whole population, and he
had no doubt that at the present momeut the Irish pro-
prietors employed a much greats r proportion than the
English proprietors did. Ile believed that if they throw
the property of the Irish landlords into the market, to
be bought by English speculators, they would simply
add to one of its greatest evils, namely, absentee proprle-
tors.—(lleur, hear.) But, as he had said before, his
greatest objection to the Bill was, that it left everything
to the discretion of the Commissioners, and until they
were named he thought the Government ought not to