The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-08 00:00:00

Government, their own Sovereign, and the Government of
England had in no respect interfered to dictate to them,
either as to the form of their Government, or the choke of
their Sovereign• Meanwhile Holland and Belgium were

mutually anxious to be separated. It waa impossible for
these countries to wee ou the tertns of separat:on,

if they were left entirely to decide them by mutual com-
munication ; and the unavoidable consequence of allowing

.....____ ,
them to pursue their own claims, would have involved all
Europe in war. It was therefore with due regard
to the interests of peace, not less than to the independence
of nations, that this country had interfered. That inter-
fer. rice had saved Europe from a general war, a war
of principle which might, therefore, in a short time, have
involved England ; the result of our timely interference
had been to place the kingdom of Ifolhm-1 i❑ a better
situation than she before occupied in any period of her his-
tory ; and to secure to Belgium that form of Government
and that sovereign whom the Belgians Wished to have.
Mr. G. DAWSON designated his Majesty's speech as
the most unmeaning one he had ever heard. The chief
topics of it were those relating to Reform, and a probable
change in tithes. As to Reform he would say nothing at
present, but as regarded a change in the lass, of tithes, he
thought that from the manner in which they had been
mentioned, a great alarm was created in the minds
of all who were possessed of tithe proporty. Ex-
cepting those two subjects, every thing else had been
left in confusion and doubt. the state of the country
was such that it was impossible but every person could see
it was becoming more dangerous ; conflagrations were
taking place in every part of the country, and no steps had
been taken to put an end to them. The country
was almost in a state of civil war. Look at
Bristol, at Nottingham, and at Derby, at which
places property to an immense amount, and hundreds of
lives, had been de.troyed, and yet Ministers seemed
to have not the least notion beyond stating those facts,
and leaving their remedy entirely out of the ques-
tion. Trade was paralysed, industry at a stand, and
yet nothing was stated in the speech to lead us to suppose
that Ministers intended to bring forward any remedy:
But there was one subject which was in every body's
mouth, he meant with respect to those societies which in the
speech were called combinations. The words of the speech
on this subject were as vague and unsatisfactory as
possible. The proclamation that had been issued,
instead of suppressing those Unions, by threatening
to enforce the rigour of the law, was merely of that
milk and water nature, that it seemed but as a kind of
advice to persons to abstain from uniting; in fact
it was vague and undefined. The sentence in the
speech relating to these Unions did not state whether it
was the intention of Government to propose any law to
put them down, or whether there was any law in
existence which they intended to put into execution.
The Attorney-General seemed to have been slumber-
ing at his post ever since be was appo'nted
to it, and if he bad been advised respect-
ing a speech, he had certainly put together a vast
number of words as undefined as possible. Should those
Unions be persevered in it would be satisfactory to
know whether Ministers intended to put them down, for

there seemed to be no law to effect that object. Why were
not steps taken to put down the existing Association in
Ireland, which consisted only of the dregs of the Catholic
Association, all the names of respectability having been
withdrawn ? To this body the whole Government of
Ireland had been delegated, and tithes was only one of
many subjects of agitation. He believed that on this very
day a meeting was held in Dublin, for the purpose of form-
ing a Prote,tant Association, to oppose the proceedings .f
the Catholic Association ; and he would ask whether it
was fit that such a state of things should continue ? On
this and other points the House was entitled to explanation ;
that it would be satisfactory he did not expect, for he was
sorry to confess that both England and Ireland were ruled
by an irresponsible Government. It was the Government
of the mob and the Government of the press, and the Mi-
nisters of the Crown were but the servants of the mob and
the press. He was sorry to see the manner in which Mi-
nisters had allowed the ante-rooms of their offices to be
filled by the would-be representatives of the mob and the
press. Lord Grey had admitted be did not know bow
many tailors to an interview ; and Lord Melbourne, from
whose character and generosity of mind he had expected
something better, had allowed a radical apothecary to in-
trude upon his privacy.
Mr. R. C. FERGUSSON referred to the reception the

Right Hon. Gentleman who preceded him had experienced
at a late public meeting in the county of Sussex, as a proof
that the Anti-Reformers were in no danger from express-
ing their sentiments in the presence of a popular assembly
met to discuss the question of Reform. In reference to
the disturbances at Bristol, his Hon. and Learned Friend
(Sir C. Wetherell) had completely justified himself in his
(Mr. Fergusson's) opinion as to the charge of his being
the cause of the riots. While he distinctly pronounced
him absolved of all blame on that score, he could not,
however, agree with bins in thinking it was incumbent
upon Government to place his name in the Commission.—
(Hear.) He agreed with what bad fallen from a Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) on the subject of Political
Associations; and he approved of the proclamation for
their suppression. These Unions were petty republics,
with whirls no regular Government could be co-existent.
In saying this, he would be far from countenancing any
interruption to the freedom of discussion. But the Leeds
Union had been established with a declaration against he•
rtilitary distinctions; a London Union bad been similarly
established ; and without mooting the question, whether
the principle of that declaration were right or wrong, he
must declare it was such a principle as no monarchical
Government could suffer to exist.—(Cheers.) At the
same time he must admit he had not learned that the As-
sociations, since their meeting, had been guilty of any
illegal act. In reference to that part of the address re-
specting Reform, he begged to state, that his opinions
were unchanged. He would continue to support his Ma-
jesty's Ministers on the principle of the late Bill, which did
not necessarily draw with it an adherence to all its details.
He thought that in many particulars it had been changed
for the worse in its progress through that House. The
Hon. Member then adverted to the line of policy pursued
its the adjustment of the difference between Belgium and
Holland, and stated that he could not form a proper judg-
ment as to the propriety of the mode of interference, until
the various explanatory documents, which be admitted had
been hitherto properly withheld, were laid before the
House. The policy adopted in the national relations to
France appeared to him wise, liberal, and conciliatory,
and he hoped to see it ripen into a cordial and lasting
amity, as the means of averting fu one Europe the dangers
of a general war, with which it was threatened by the
designs of less enlighted Powers. He could not refrain
from touching upon another and a melancholy theme.—
He feared that the silence of the address respecting unfor-
tunate Poland must be considered as si!ence over the dead.
—(Hear.) Never, he feared, would that country again
arise, struck down as it was at the feet of Russia, and the
slave of the conqueror. Still he could not permit himself
to put entire faith in the assertions of a Parisian publica-
tion, which stated that Poland bad not been subdued by
the Russian arms, but by the promises of England and
France.—(Hear.) France had deceived her by promises
of aid, but he entertained the conviction that Britain was
free from this foul stigma.
Lord SANDON rose to address the House, but, partly
Irons the frequent depression of his Lordship'srvoice and
partly from his position under the gallery, we were unable
to catch more than disjointed fragments of his speech.
We understood his Lordship to say, that lie thought a Bill,
conformable in principle to the last, was called for; but be
was of opinion, that if they gained the concurrence of a
majority of the other House to the leading principles of
that Bill, they ought not to attempt to overcome the resist-
ance to particular details.—(Hear.) There was a general
conviction of the necessity of a measure of Reform —a
measure that would abolish nomination boroughs, and
afford a liberal extension of the elective franchise ; but
there was no necessity to attempt to force down the throats
of the country a Bill precisely, or very nearly similar to
the last.—( Hear, from the Ministerial side, from which
the Noble Lord spoke, and cheers from the Opposition
benches.) They ought not to estimate the general feeling
with respect to the late Bill by what had occurred at
public meetings.—(Hear.) If Hon. Members examined
the sentiments of their constituents individually as regarded
that Bill, and struck a balance, they would, he was per-
suaded, find that the great majority were against it.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) He trusted, that if they
could but agree on two or three great principles, the
country would be content to leave the settlement of the
question in their bands without endeavouring to overawe
them by Political Unions.—(Hear.),ln the House of Lord.
he believed they would meet a disposition to abandon the
system of nomination boroughs—(Hear)—a system which
at one time had its use. His Lordship apologized for
trespassing on the time of the House, and concluded by
expressing his approbation of the pacific line of foreign
policy adopted by Ministers.
Mr. HUNT said, that the Hon. Member for Kirkcud-
bright (Mr. Fergusson) had denounced Political Unions,
and called on Government to suppress them, forgetting that
his Majesty's Ministers had corresponded with Unions,—
had encouraged the formation of Unions,—had sanctioned
and supported them, and had kept their places by them.
Mr. FERGUSSON denied having said either that
Ministers existed, or that Ministers were supported, by
means of the Political Unions. Indeed, he believed that

many of those Unions were opposed to the Mini.try in most
of the leading points of their

- - -
Sir F. BURDETT expres4ed himself so indistinctly,
that we cannot pretend to vouch for the accuracy of the

sentiments which we are going to attribute to him. To
the best of our belief, however, he spoke to the following
effect :—He concurred in most of the opinions which bad
been expressed by his Hon. and Learned Friend below him
respecting the foreign policy of the present Administration.
He objected to the course pursued by the Hon. Member
for Preston, for he found that Hon. Membei. regularly
.mpporting the Bill within, and opposing it without the
House, upo❑ all occasions.—(Great cheering.) He con-
tended that the Political Unions had never infringed

the law. How any man could bring himself to state
that Ministers derived not only their support but also

their existence from the Political Unions, was a matter

far b yond his comprehension. He admitted that the
chief aim, the main object of these Associations, was
to support the honest measure which the Ministry had
introduced for the purpose of reforming the Commons
House of Parliament, and that it was their fixed and

settled purpose not to do any thing which could impede
the views or thwart the designs of the present Admini-

~tration. Belonging, as he did, to these Unions, lie de-
fied any man to prove the chlrge which bad been so fre-
quently btooght against them, of being contrary to law.
Their operations might be contrary to the opinion which
his Hon. and Learned Friend had just promulgated, but
he defied his Hon. and Learned Friend, with alt his in-

genttity, to prove that they were in any, the slightest re-
spect, illegal. Some of these Union!, it appeared, had

stated that the distinction of ranks in society was mina.
tural. Weil : who pretended to say that the distinction
of ranks was natural ?—(Hear, hear.) But supposing
that such a statement had been made, was it sufficient to

show that—peril either had or would arise out of such
societies ? He believed that his Hon. and Learned Friend

below him (Mr. Fergusson) had himself in early life be-
longed to such societies.—(Mr. FERGussoN—" Never.")
Well ; he had given his Hon. and Learned Friend credit
for belonging to such societies—a credit which it now
turned out that his lion. and Learned Friend did not dc-

ees.e.--(A laugh.) The fact, however, was immaterial,
for all that he was now contending for was, to deny that
there was any illegality in the formatin of these Unions,
or that there was any bad spirit pervading them.—
" I believe," continued Sir Francis, " that the wish of
his Majesty will be sufficient to dissolve them ; for, inde-
pendently of his authority as Sovereign, such is the in-
fluence which he has derived from his wise and patriotic

conduct since his accession to the throw., that lam con-
vinced that a mere breath of his will do more to dissolve
them than all the arbitrary mandates of any Ministry."—
(Hear, hear.) lie that, however, as it might, all these
Unions would be dissolved, as certainly as the fogs of
night were dissolved by the 3a n of the morning, when-
ever the people of England should receive that just and
constitutional Reform to which they were entitled.

Then they would be satisfied ; but if they did not ob-
tain such a measure of Reform, nothing would satisfy
them.—(Hear, hear.) What they would have to do, were
the Reform Bill again refused, he would not venture to
predict. Long forbearing, as the people of England were,
they were not forbearing from want of courage..—(hear,
hear.) If, therefore, there should still he any men who
persisted in advising Ministers not to press this Bill on
the country, they were advising Ministers to civil war as
obviously as any thing could be.—(Hear, bear.) The
Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge, whose
talents and integrity he justly admired—(Hear)—had last
night praised him for having withdrawn his name from
the Political Union. Now lie %a ould enter into a very

brief statement to give that Hon. and Learned Gentleftism
an opportunity of judging whether the praise bestow('
upon him was deserved or not. He had read in the
public papers, that the Council of that society had come
to certain resoldtions, to which at its first formation he
had objected, and objected successfully. One of the reso-
lutions to which he had objected, was a resolution by

which they voted themselves a permanent body. On see-
ing the resolution, he had struck the word " permanent"
out with his own hand. From the public prints he saw
that this society was going on, as if it intended to make
itself permanent. He also saw it stated that it had passed
a resolution, condemning the King of France for the late
creation of Peers in that country. This resolution ap-
peared to him so irrational, so inconsistent with the usual
prudent character of Englishmen, that he thought the so-
ciety not dangerous, but ridiculous. He therefore made a
communication to the Council, desiring that his name,
for the reasons which he had just stated, should
be withdrawn from the society. He received in
,
reply a communication, stating that no such reso-
lutions hail been proposed, much less passed by the
society. Such being the case, he was asked whether
lie still persisted in his determination to withdraw hie
name. His answer to this question was conditional : he
told the Council that it was incumbent upon them to re-
lieve the public mind from the impression which the state-
ment of these resolutions having been passed by them had
created in the public mind ; and so the matter stood for
the present. From the confidence which he reposed in the
Government, in the King, and in the people, he wished
that this matter should be left altogether in the hands of
the Ministers. The Hon. Member for Preston said,
that he could not agree with him in that wish, for he had,
he said, no confidence in the Government. Whether there
were others, who, like the Hon. Member, would not grant
their confidence to Ministers on this point, he did not
know ; perhaps there might be such persons, for he had
heard it whispered even in that House that Ministers
pushed their principles too far on the side of liberty. This
was the great fault of this administration,—this was its
glorious distinction,—that the faults attributed to it arose
not from any intention to widen its prerogatives and to
extend its dominion over the people, but from the anxiety
which it displayed to keep open the communication and
intercourse which existed at present between the King
and his subjects. It had been stated that it was disgraceful
for a Minister of the Crown to give any answer to the
communications which he received from such assemblies.
He could scarcely believe that lie was in the House of Com-
mons when such sounds assailed his ears.—(llear, hear.)
The speech horn the throne had been described as feeble
and delusive in speeches which far better deserved
that character. For what had been the objections taken
to it ? The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had objected to
the circumstance of only fourteen days' notice having ken
given of the intended meeting of Parliament, and in an
argument more distinguished for its prolixity than for its
strength, had said that the notice ought to have been
twenty-three days, and not merely fourteen. This was a
cavil really not worth notice.—(Cries of " Hear.") Who-
ever looked at the agitated state of the public mind must
see that every day's delay in calling Parliament together
was injurious not only to the character of the Govern-
ment, but also to the peace of the country. He did not
mean to say that all the evils which now afflicted the va-
rious interests of society were attributable to this source,
or that even a quarter of them arose from the non-assem-
bling of Parliament. He was certain, however, that there
was no person connected with the manufacturing or agri-
cultural classes of the country, who did not attribute all
the pressure which they now felt to the delay which had
taken place in the passing the Reform Bill. To say that
the passing of the Reform Bill would get rid of all the ills
to which they were exposed at present, was an assertion
upon which he would not venture ; but he would say,
that to tranquillize the mind, and to pacify the anxiety of
the empire, it was absolutely necessary that the Home
should meet. It might have been answered to the objec-
tions of the Right Hon. Baronet, that with all the
improvements which had taken place since 1797 is
the making of roads, and in the conveyance of passen-
gers from one place to another, fourteen days' notice
now is equal to twenty-three days' notice in 1797. The
Right Hon. Baronet bad likewise said, that the speech
was not distinct enough—that it was vague and general
—and that it descended to no particulars. It omitted,
forsooth, all notice of the renewal of the charters of the
Bank and of the East India Company. He (Sir F. Bur-
dett) thought that one subject, the subject of Reform, was
quite sufficient for a King's speech at the present moment.
was t a
all m i
thek errors mistake, of
of the e r
present
; e
s andu
t
Administration arose from their honest intentions, and
from their mistake in supposing that they could effect de-
sirable objects in Parliament as it was now constituted.
He was of opinion, that even if the speech had said no-
thing about Reform in Parliament, or about the improve-
ment of the tithe system in Ireland, it would not have deserved
the character of a meagre and feeble speech. The improve-
ment of the Irish tithe system was a measure of first rate
necessity and importance. He recollected well, that when
the subject of Catholic emancipation was most warmly de-
bated in that House, he had beard it said by a most com-
petent authority, " This is all well enough, but you are all
mad about Catholic emancipation,—the real evil of Ire-
land is the arrangement about tithes."—(lleac, hear.)
The remodelling of that arrangement is in itself " a pretty'
considerable subject."—(A laugh.) The next point in
the speech on which he wished to say a word, was the con-
vention made with the Drench Government about that
infamous traffic, fur the aboli!ion of which we had made'
such sacrifices. That was a point on which he thought
That hie Majesty had a just right to congratulate his sub.