The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-03 00:00:00

o :Is3 IseenerS eet'c res., f f 11-1. ipi.
upw. of Lhe carne These
are the crimes for which this House is called upon to take the
unusual step of pronouncing a condemnation upon her Ma-
jesty's Government on the first evening of the session—a
condemnation proposed, be it observed, without waiting for
the papers which are promised to be given—a prudent mea-
sure, doubtless, on the part of those who know full well that,
when the papers do come. their censure will not be received,
and who think it may be good policy to endeavour to obtain
a vote before the grounds of that vote can be laid before
the House.—(Cheers.) I should think that the animus of
the mover of the amendment showed itself a little in the
speech of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire. That Hon.
Member said that the Spanish Government had last year
offered an affront to the Government of England ; and the
Hon. Member took rather more credit to himself than I am
at all disposed to allow him, by assuming that it was in con-
sequence of some motion or speech of his that the Govern-
ment had requested M. Isturitz, the then Minister of Spain
in England, to return to Spain, in consequence of the dis-
missal of Mr. Bulwer from Madrid. I can assure the Hon.
Member that he is entirely in error on that subject, and that
he had no share whatever in the decision of the Government
on that occasion.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the Hon.
Gentleman also said that it was now so many months since
that insult had been offered to this country, and that we had
not yet obtained redress ; that we had remained entirely pas-
sive under that affront; and he asked where was the spirit
and dignity of England. Now what does this. mean, except
that we ought to have gone to war with Spain in consequence
of that affront? We desired the Minister of Spain to go back
to Madrid in consequence of the Minister of England having
been desired to quit Madrid for London ; and although I admit
that that was an affront, although I feel that reparation is
due.—(Hear, hear) —and although I trust that the Spanish
Government, when they come calmly to reflect upon 'the
matter, and see how insufficient were the grounds upon which
they acted, may be inclined to make reparation, yet I am
not prepared to go the length of the Iton. Gentlemen who
think that we ought to have declared war in order to revenge
that insult.—(Hear, hear.) I have been accused sometimes
of being rather prone totate measures leading to war. The
war party, however,now sit there. [Pointing to the Oppo-
sition Benches.]—(Cheers and laughter.) The Hon. Mem-
ber seemed to infer that all the papers connected with the
question had been laid before the House last year. What he
wants, then, it remains for him more clearly to explain. My
Hon. Friend, the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Horsman)
complained that the proceedings of the Foreign-office were
involved—although he did not blame me in particular.
—for he admitted it had been the case from time
immemorial,—that the proceedings of the Foreign-office .
were involved in a mystery which was highly mortifying to
his curiosity.—(Laughter.) Now certainly I do feel much
for the inquisitorial disappointment of my Honourable
Friend. I can assure him that when I was out of office I
should have been equally gratified to have the run of, I
do not say all, but the principal—the pick—of the interest-
' ing dispatches received at the Foreign-office.—(Renewed
laughter.) I can assure him also that it would be exceed-
ingly interesting and amusing for the Members of this
House to have delivered to them, with the votes, the
latest dispatches written and received by the Fo-
reign-office ; but I much doubt if this would contribute ,
to the maintenance of peace, or conduce to the real inter-
ests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place,
it happens not to be in accordance with the constitution
of the kingdom, which vests in the Crown, and not in the
House of Commons, the conduct of foreign negotiations—
(Hear, hear)—but I can assure ley Honourable Friend that
if there is one matter more than another which is certain to
involve the country in difficulties, to render them incurable,
and to lead to unavoidable ruptures, it is popular assemblies
taking possession of diplomatic transactions.- (Hear, hear.)
The very publicity which he wishes to see established would
be fatal to accommodations in ninety-nine cases out of 100.
If the answer to a proposition which had been made in
the course of a negotiation were next week published to
the world, how could you expect the Government who
objected to the proposition ever to retract or modify its ob-
jection?—(Hear, hear.) You would pin it and nail it down
to its first objection, and you would render accommodation
impossible. You would set the self-love of the two parties
against each other; and you would reduce them to a position
from which there was no way of escape except that which
was adopted by duellists in similar circurn,tances.—(Heer, •
hear.) I believe there is in this country an Anti-Duel-
ling Society, and I trust they will interpose to prevent my
Honourable Friend from carrying into practice the
principle which he so eloquently advocates. There
is one mediation to which I may allude as an ex- -
ample in point. There was a question arose between
France and the United States in 1834, and by some
misfortune the Chambers of France and the Congress of
the United States became pledged to a difference of opinion;
and the two countries wee in that state in which, without
the intervention of a third friendly power, it would have
been impossible in honour for either party to avoid corning
to the arbitrament of arms. But by our friendly offices the '
matter was adjusted and peace preserved between the two
countries.—(Hear, hear.) This, then, is the state of the
matter.—We stand here charged with the grave offence of '
having preserved a good understanding with the representa-
tives of France, and having thereby contributed essentially '
to the maintenance of the peace of Europe. We are charged
also with the distinct offence of having put an end to the
hostilities between Denmark and Schleswig, which might
have led to a European war ; and having induced Austria
and Sardinia to lay down their arms, when their difference,. -
might
have involved the Powers of Europe. We are also
accused of having prevented great calamities in Sicilyan.d of
labouring to establish friendly relations betweers the
King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects. These are the
charges which the House is now called upon to determine
for or against us. We stand here as the promoters of peacit
—as the parties who have laboured assiduously to prevent •
war, to narrow its range if it should break out, and to put
an end to it as soon as possible. We stand here as the pro-
moters of peace—under charges brought against us by the -
advocates of war. I leave the House to decide between us,
and I confidently look to the verdict which the House will -
give.—(Loud cheers.)
The Marquis of GRANBY then moved the adjournment
of the debate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he should take the sense of the '
House upon that proposition. They had had two nights' de-
bate already, and it was evident that there were many
matters contained in the Address which must be frequently
discussed in the course of the session.—(Hear, hear.) He
put it to the House, therefore, whether, if they now adjourned
the debate, they would not be setting a bad example--(Hear,
hear)—and whether it would not be better to decide now
upon the amendment, in order to begin the next week with
practical discussions.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HERRIES supported the motion for adjournment, on
the ground that he and other Members were anxious to ad-
dress the House upon the amendment, and that they could
not expect to be listened to at that late hour.—(Cries of "Go
on," and "Adjourn.") He hoped the House would agree to
the adjournment, on the understanding that the debate
should positively conclude on Monday next.— (No, no.)
If the debate was adjourned then the Noble Lord must not
be offended should the subject of foreign affairs be again
brought under discussion, nor attribute it to any want of
courtesy.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.") •
Mr. M. MILNES rose, but was met by loud cries of " Oh,
oh !" amid which he sat down. He again rose, but encoun-
sering a similar reception resumed his seat.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he certainly could not complain
of what he had said to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Herries), if the topics mentioned in the Address should
be again brought under discussion in reference to any mea-
sures which might be laid before the House on a future oc-
casion.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he thought such a
course would be of advantage to the dispatch of public
business. If the Noble Lord perceived that the general wish
of the Nouse was for a division, as it seemed to be—(" No,
no!" and loud cries of " Divide")—he hoped he would give
way to it,
The Marquis of GRANBY begged to assure the Noble
Lord that it was not on light grounds those who acted with
him had departed from the usual practice of the house in
voting an Address to her Majesty. They had done so solely
from a conviction of the great importance of the interests
which had been lefeout of discussion—(" Divide, divide !") -
and they wished to adjourn the debate on Monday, as it
was the intention of himself and of his Right Hors. Colleague to
call attention to the state of those interests.
The House then divided, when there appeared-3
Against the adjournment 221
For it
Majority •
On our return to the gallery we found. —l4l
Mr. DISRAELI addressing the, House, in the act of with-
drawing
his amendment. Atter what the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government hac, stated with respect to those
subjects again coming uncle's discussion, and, on the under-
standing that he would proceed on Monday next with the
business of which he ha .d given notice, he would not press for
a division.
The Address was then agreed to, and a Committee ap-
pointed to draw it up.
BOARDS OF EXCISE AND TAXES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved
for leave teibring in a Bill to consolidate the Boards of Ex-
cise and Taxes into one Board of Commissioners of Inland
Revenue, and to make provision for the collection of such
revenue. The object of this Bill, he observed, was to secure
efficiency in the conjoined departments and to promote eco-
nomy. The Commissioners would be reduced from twelve to
seven, and it was anticipated that the ultimate saving would
amount to not less than 70,000/. or 80,000/.
Mr. HERRIES trusted that the security of th revenue
would in no degree 'ae impaired, and that the combined boards
would work as efficiently as the divided boards did.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
THE WOODS AND FORESTS.
Lord DUNCAN moved the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the expenditure and management of
the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues of the Crown.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the motion, a Simi-
lar Committee having been appointed last year.
The Earl of LINCOLN thought it quite right that this
Committee should be re-appointed, because last year they had advanced but a short way in their investigations. They
had lest the services of the Noble Lord at the head of the
Woods and Forests as a Member of that House, but he hoped
the Government would be properly represented on the Com-
mittee.
Lord J. RUSSELL was quite aware of the disadvantage
they would suffer from want of the Noble Lord at the , head of the Woods and Forests as a Member of the Com-
mittee. He had communicated with Lord Carlisle on the
subject, and the Government would endeavour to supply his
place.
The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee ap-
pointed.
On the motion of Mr. PARKER, the House, on its rising,
was ordered to adjourn to Monday next.
The House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.

BTHS.
At Ramsgate, on the 27th ult., the lady of A. Robinson? Esq., R.N., of a son.
At Chelmsford, on the 29th ult., the wife of the Rev. P.
Prescott, of a daughter.
On the 29th ult., at Vicar's Cross, the lady of G. FoMott.
Esq., of a son and heir.
On the 30th ult., at Harewood-square, the lady of Jane°
Talbot, Eq., of a son.

DIED.
On the 25th ult., at Ostend, Lieutenant E. Tyndall, R.N. On the 25th ult., at Hammersmith, Elizabeth, widow 01-
,
the late G. Bolton, Esq , of Manchester, aged 76.
On the 27th ult., at Exmouth, Elizabeth, wife of J. C.
Pigo,..t, Esq., aged 76.
On the 27th ult., at Romsey, Hants, the Rev. J. JenveY,
M.A., aged 55.
On the 29th ult., at Cambridge, aged 30, William G'
Esq., 8.A., of Christ's Hospital.
On the 30th ult., Alfred Gell, Esq„ of Eastbourne, Si
second son of E. H. Cell, Esq., of Lewes, aged 32.
On the 31st ult., at Brompton, Dr. George Fownes, F.
Professor of Practical Chemistry at University College,
don, aged 34.
On the 21st ult., at George-street, Portman-square, ag
Miss Elizabeth Gibbs, only surviving sister of Major. G,
Sir Samuel Gibbs, K.C.B.

London: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNI
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No.
Strand, in the Precinct of the Saroy, in thy mat
Middlesex, Saturday, February 3, 1349.

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