The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-03 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY, MARCH 3, 1836.

enmity I know not. Can it be by my always having been his '
friend ? You will scarcely believe that after two-and-twenty
years of the most confidential intercourse his last act was that
of cordial recognition on the very threshold of the House into
which he was entering to asperse me 1 ! Mr. O'Connell
is fond of adverting to his home. A happy one I know it is,
and long •may it continue so ; but he ought not to have for-
gotten the helpless little ones of another home, whom he
was depriving of their bread by depriving their parent of his
character.—l am, my dear Sir, most gratefully your friend
and townsman,

" CHARLES PHILLIPS.

" To Colonel Perceval, M. P."
Colonel PERCEVAL having read the letter, was pro-
ceeding to comment upon it, when
Mr. AGLIONBY rose to order.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the Hon. Member had now
satisfied himself.. He retracted before the letter was read,
and after its being read, he now retracted again.
Mr. C. BULLER said he would now return to the Bill.
He thought it would be better to have Only two speeches,
giVing the accused the last word. This was the practice in
Scotland.
Mr. EWART saw no reason why the accused should
not have.the last word in all cases as well as in felonies and
high treason.
Mr. HARDY thought it would be against the interest
of the accused to have the last word.
The LORD ADVOCATE said the practice in Scot-
land greatly facilitated the administration of justice.
Sir G. STRICKL A.ND thought it would be better to
pass the Bill without the clause.
Mr. FRESHFIELD could not assent to the clause,
but would not divide the House upon it.
Mr. C. BULLER moved an amendment to the effect
that, according to the Scotch system the speeches of Coun-
sel should not begin until, the whole of the witnesses bad
been examined on the one side and on the other. He
thought it would be time enough afterwards to consider the
form of the indictment.
Mr. J. JERVIS thought that if the clause was objec-
tionable before, it would be ten times more so if the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member were adopted.
Mr. EWART was surprised, having been associated
with the Hon. and Learned Member in the introduction of
this measure, that he should not have been allowed to share
his confidence with respect to present amendment.—( Hear.)
This very proposition had been negatived by a Select Com-
mittee two years ago, and lie (Mr:Ewart) could not concur

158

in it now.
Mr. GORING thought that the effect of the clause, as
well as of the amendment, would be to make it difficult to
procure convictions at all.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL begged .„the Hon.
Member for Liskeard to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. C. BULLER thought it would be better to strike
out the clause altogether.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL suggested that the amend-
ment be withdrawn, and the original question put.
Mr. BULLER accordingly withdrew his amendment.
The original question was then put from the Chair.
After a few words from Mr. TREVOR, the Gallery
was cleared for a division : but a discussion arose while the
doors were closed, and no division took place. It was un-
derstood that this was in consequence of the resolution of
the House with regard to the new mode of taking divisions
having omitted to give the Chairman of Committees the
same powers as regards divisions in Committee which are
given to the Speaker in cases of ordinary divisions.
On our return to the Gallery we found that the Chair-
man had reported progress, and the House had resumed. ,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was addressing the
House. There could be no doubt that the resolution
having omitted to provide for the case of a division in Com-
mittee such a division could not be Come to unless the
House were prepared to make the necessary alteration in
the wording of the resolution.
Mr. WARD—Undoubtedly the intention of the Com-
mittee from which the proposition had emanated had been
that the plan should apply to all the divisions of the House,
and he would therefore, with the permission of the House,
move that the word " Chairman," be inserted in the resolu-
tion in order to avoid the difficulty.
After a few words from Mr. AGLIONBY and Mr.
GROTE,
Mr. WARD rose to move his amendment ; but was re-
minded that he bad given no notice. The Hon. Member
appealed to the Speaker whether he was to give notice
or not ?
The SPEAKER said that the usual course cdrtainly
was to give notice of any motion intended to be. brought

.-118

forward:
Mr. HUME submitted that there were cases, however,
in which the House was called upon to waive the standing
regulations, and that this was one of those in which it could

come to an immediate decision.
The SPEAKER said there was no doubt if a Member
was in possession of the House, he might make any motion
he thought fit ; but at the same time it had been customary
for many years past fo'r Hon. Members to give notice of the
motions they intended to make. It was a question whether
a motion which was to alter a resolution of the House could
be immediately made, and without notice.
Mr. GROTE
the
that the resolutions rendered it
imperative that the order for closing the doors should be
' given by a certain person, and if that person were not there
to perform that duty, no division could take place in the
Committee. He thought it was the duty of the House at
once to adopt soma means by which the difficulty could be

removed.
After a few words from Mr. Ward, Mr. Heathcote, Mr.
R. Steuart, Mr. Warburton, and the Solicitor-General,
The SPEAKER observed, that if the proposition of the
Hon. Member for St. Alban's were established, the rule
and practice of taking divisions would be rendered clear,
but then he did not think that such a step should be taken
without notice.—(Hear‘ hear.)
The House, having again resolved itself into Committee,
divided, and the numbers were—
Ayes
Noes
Majority
On our re-admission, we found
Sir E. KN ATcHuLL objecting to the clause which
proposes to give the assistance of Counsel or attorney to
any party brought before a Justice for examination on a
criminal charge. He differed in opinion with the Hon.
Gentleman opposite as to the prudence of such an enact
ment. He certainly must take the sense of the House
upon the clause, although he would not object to it, if it
were so modified as that the assistance of Counsel or at-
torney should be allowed to no prisoner brought before a
Justice for preliminary examination, unless Counsel or attor-
ney appeared on the part of the prosecution. This would
be placing both parties on the same footing.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if the clause
had been confined to cases of summary jurisdiction before
Magistrates, he would have at once agreed to it ; but as it
was, he must say, that he considered it much too expensive.
Mr. Sergeant WOULFE contended that 'the prisoners
were as much entitled to the protection which the at-
tendance of Counsel could afford them, on a preliminary
examination as on a trial.
Mr. EW ART did not think Gentlemen who undor-
took the offices of Justices of the Peace should complain of
any inconvenience which the duty they had to discharge
might impose upon them, nor that their convenience was
the point to be studied in an Act of this description. He,
however, should, as far as he was concerned, prefer stipen-
diary to unpaid Magistrates.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL concurred in thinking
that the clause went a great deal too far ; and said that,
unless the modification proposed was adopted, he could not
agree to it. They should recollect that a trial was in the
nature of an appeal, and therefore that if prisoners were
allowed the assistance of Counsel on their trial, it was all
that they had a right to expect, or that ought to be con-
ceded to them.
Mr. AGLIONBY considered that prisoners should be
allowed just as much protection against the wrong decision
of a Magistrate as against the wrong decision of a Jury. It
should not be forgotten that the wrong decision of a Magis-
trate might subject an innocent person to imprisonment
among the worst classes of society.
A conversation then ensued in which Mr. Roebuck, Mr.
Heathcote, Mr. Lennard, Mr. Cutlar Ferguson, Mr.
Wynn, Mr. W. Roche, and Mr. Hogg took part ; after
which the Committee divided, when there appeared--
For the Amendment
For the original clause
Majority for the Amendment --17
Upon the reading of the fourth clause. which provides
that all persons who may hereafter be held to bail or com-
mitted to prison for any offence against the law shall be en-
titled to require, and to have on demand from the persons
having lawful custody thereof, copies of the examinations of
the witnesses upon whose depositions they have been so held
to bail or committed to prison, Szc.
Mr. Sergeant WOULFE proposed to add the words,
" or which may have been subsequently taken by any
Justice of the Peace since such admission to bail, or such
committal to prison."
Mr. C. FERGUSSON strongly condemned the practice
of taking depositions in the absence of the prisoner.
Mr. O'LOGHLIN said that, so far from the person
accused having the witnesses on whose depositions be was
committed examined in his presence, on the contrary, such
a practice was permitted in no case of felony, and in very
few cases of misdemeanour. In point of fact, even though
a person had been admitted to bail, it was the common
practice to take additional informations against him, which
were returned to the Clerk of the Crown who framed the
indictment, and the party went to trial without notice of
the charges against him. He thought that so mischievous
a practice ought to be put an end to, and for that purpose
he considered it quite necessary that there should be, an
1 expression of the opinion of the House upon the subject.

tlcct4

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL considered such a
practice as the amendment went to correct to be abominable.
Mr. WYNN concurred in the propriety of introducing a
measure to put an end altogether to Auch a practice.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL was understood to concur in
the principle of the amendment.
Mr. AGLION BY had been of opinion at first that the
amendment was not necessary, as he thought provision was
made by law against taking depositions after committal or
holding to bail ; but on reference to the statute upon which
he founded this opinion he saw it referred only to England,
and not to Ireland. He (Mr. Aglionby) agreed with the
Learned Attorney-General for England on two points, that
the practice was abominable, and ought to be put down,
but not that it was illegal.
After a few words from Mr. Sergeant JACKSON and the
ATTORNEY-GENERAL for England,
Mr. WOULFE withdrew his amendment, on an under-
standing that an inquiry be instituted, and a Bill brought
in, declaratory of, what the law was. •
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 5 being proposed, enacting " that all persons
under trial shall be entitled at the time of their trial to in-
spect, without fee or reward, all depositions (or copies
thereof) which have been taken against them, and returned
into the Court before which such trial shall be had,"
Sir E. KNATCHBULL made some observations,
which were inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. WYNN was understood to object to the clause.
Tho House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it •
Majority —lO7
The other clauses were then agreed to, the House re
sumed, and the report was ordered to be received, as we
understood, to-morrow.
EXTRA PAROCHIAL PLACES BILL.
Mr. JERVIS moved the second reading of this Bill, to
which he apprehended no objection, inasmuch as Lord Al-
thorp, when he (Mr. Jervis) proposed the measure as an
amendment to the new Poor Law Bill, professed himself
friendly to its principle, if brought before the House in a
sabstantive shape.
Sir C. B. VERE opposed the Bill, as.an invasion of pro-
'perty, and moved that
tit be read a second time that day
six months.
After some conversation, in which it was suggested by
several Hon. Members that the Bill, though it might be
good in principle, was objectionable •in some of its details,
the amendment was withdrawn and the second reading
postponed till after the Easter recess.
CORPORATION OF POOLE.
Mr. POULTER moved the order of the day for the
adjourned debate on the motion for referring the circum-
stances attending the late municipal election for the borough
of Poole to a Select Committee.
Mr. HOGG begged
.leave to move as an amendment,
' That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into an
alleged intention of the town council of Poole to dispose of
the property of the corporation pending the trial of legal
proceedings questioning the right of the persons composing
the said town council to act as town councillors, and also to
inquire into the best and speediest means of promoting
such disposal of the said property."—(Hear.)
The SPEAKER put the question accordingly.
Mr. POULTER opposed the amendment. •
The Hon. Mr. SCARLETT rose amidst loud cries of
" Spoke." He approved of the amendment much more
than of the original motion. The subject did not properly
belong to Parliament—it was one that a Court of Law
alone should take cognizance of. It was true that the
Courts of Law could not remedy the offence really com-
plained of, that this was a Conservative corporation ; but
they could remedy the offences, if any, really committed.
If the election was bad, the King's Bench could pronounce
it void, so could it the nomination of aldermen : and the
Court of Chancery could interfere with any alienation of
property by the corporation. The present line of proceed-
ing was a novel and unconstitutional one, as it was tyranny
on the part of Parliament to interfere with the rights of the
Courts of Law.
The House then divided, and the amendment havin
been negatived, there appeared—
For the original motion lBB
Against it
Majority
On our re-admission to the Gallery,
Mr. WYNN was addressing the House. He would
not divide the House on the question, but he entered his
most solemn protest, as strongly as he could, against the
last decision, as being in itself an evil, and likely to lead
from the precedent, to greater evils. He would recom-
mend his friends to express their dissent from the last de-
cision, but not to divide the House.
The SPEAKER then put the motion, and read the
names of the Committee, which were assented to.
Mr. O'LOGIILIN obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
the more effective registration of voters in Ireland.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock.

Mathews continued to suffer from the nausea, which
he habitually designated " Mr. Steward." It, however,
yielded at length before the remedies of his medical friends ;
but the thirst continued unabated. Mr. commiserated
him the more from having himself experienced the wretched-
ness of protracted thirst when a prisoner on board a French
frigate, and " where," said he, " having by accident found a
bottle of ink, I drank to the bottom." On our expressing the
feats we should have of inducing illness by such a " black
draught," Mathews for an instant opened all the brilliancy of
his eye upon us, and remarked, with as much voice as his then
exhausted condition would allow, " Why--all you'd have to
do—would be to swallow a sheet of blotting paper."—Fraser's
Magazine.
Last week we were informed officially at Chichester,
that the name of Mr. Freeland was excluded from the list of
Magistrates, Ministers not advising his Majesty to put practis-
ing lawyers in the commission. This rule we called a whole-
some one ; and wholesome it is, for the duties of a practising
lawyer and a Magistrate are incompatible. Now, however,
Mr. Freeland is to be a Magistrate, the agent of a political
Pasty, and that party connected with the Lord Lieutenant of a
county, having the concerns of the Cathedral in his hands,
and numbering among his clients monopolizing brewers, must
be exposed to sinister influences in the discharge of public jus-
tice, which requires more than superhuman power to with-
stand.—Brighton Gazette.
On 'Wednesday evening last the Edinburgh mail
was considerably later than usual in its arrival in the city ; its
detention was owing to two causes—first, to the fall of snow,
which had then continued for some hours ; and secondly, to
an enormous amount of specie, transmitted by mail to Man-
chester. It is said that the weight of the gold was more
than half a ton, packed in small strong boxes, and guarded
by four passengers, who travelled by mail to secure its safety.
The great weight of this luggage sunk the body of the coach
considerably. It soon got wind that half a ton of gold was
resting on our pavement, and a crowd quickly collected, bat
the passengers had got their seats, the horses were in, the
guard blew his monotonous blast—" all right" exclaimed the
coachman, " all right" echoed the guard, and away went this
princely hoard, to be scattered again through the country by
circulation.—Carlisle Patriot.
LAMBETH LITERARY AND SCIENTIFIC INSTI-
STUTION.—A public meeting for forwarding the views of this
institution:was held on Tuesday at one o'clock in the Society's
Reading Room, Wellington-terrace, Waterloo-road. B.
Hawes, Esq., M. P., in the Chair. Preliminary to reading the
report, the Hon. Chairman introduced various letters from
titled individuals, expressing their approval of the institution.
A letter from Lord King was read, stating his Lordship's re-
gret that he was unable to attend the meeting, but affording
the Society his name and influence as a Patron. Letters to a
similar purport were also read from Lord Lansdowne and his
Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury. His Grace presented
the Institution with the donation of 101. Messrs. Kemp, Davis,
Ritchie, Dendy, Lardner, Cottingham, Stokes, Cory, Hender-
son, Carpenter, Nuttall, and Lawrence, spoke in favour of the
objects of the Institution, and a number of resolutions were
passed relative to its future management. Thanks having been
voted to the Chairman, and the same being handsomely ac-
knowledged, the meeting was adjourned to Thursday, the 10th
inst. There was a very full attendance of ladies, and the
meeting altogether appeared to be very respectable.
VOLUNTARY PRINCIPLE.—On Sunday last, the
Rev. Mr. Cameron preached a sermon in the Baptist chapel,
at Louth, in aid of the funds for the liquidation of the above
place, when 9s. I lid. was collected. Although the
'Rev. Owen Clarke, through some misunderstanding, was
preaching in the Independent and Methodist Chapels, this
extraordinary sum was raised. Let Sir R. Peel and his party
look to this. Who says the voluntary principle does not work
well in Louth ?—Lincoln Gazette.
CORONER'S INQUEST.—Tuesday afternoon an in-
quiry took place at the Old Vineyard House, Vineyard-walk,
Clerkenw ell, before Mr. Stirling and a respectable Jury, for
the purpose of investigating the circumstances attending the
deaths of two fine new-born male infants, which were disco-
vered exposed in a manner that left no doubt that they had
been destroyed by the unnatural parent, or m soetreet, other party.
Mr. James Bartholomew, of No. 45, Hunter-s Bruns-
wick-square, between six and seven o'clock that morning was
nassinw along Hardwicke-street, Clerkenwell, when he ob-
servedr° a green-baize bundle lying near a gateway. On a
closer inspection, he was shocked at discovering that it con-
tained a male infant. Witness immediately proceeded to the
station-house in Rosamond-street, and gave information to the
Inspector on duty, who despatched a constable to the spot, and
the unfortunate babe was removed to the workhouse. -Mr.
Whitmore, surgeon, of Great Bath-street, Clelicenwell
, had
examined the child. It was full grown, and a-remarkably fine
child. The after-birth was not separated. The face had suf-
fered very severe external pressure. On the usual tests the
lungs were found to float, and from the appearances witness was
convinced the babe lived some time after the birth. The
pressure on the mouth was sufficient to cause death by suffo-
cation. Th., Jury immediately returned a verdict of Wilful
Murder against some person or persons unknown." The other:
infant was found wrapped in a piece of c.alko in Spa-fields
Chapel. Mr. Whitmore was of opiniod that the child was still-
born. The Jury in this case returned a verdict—" That the
infant was found indecently exposed, but whether born alive
and destroyed or otherwise there was no evidence to prove."