The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Aril, l9.

In consequence of a ballot on the Coleraine election,
the gallery was not opened this afternoon until a few mi-
nutes before Four o'clock. IVe understood, however, that
no ballot took place.
Tie rush of strangers to obtain admission was as great,
if not greater thin on any firmer occasion, and the gal-
lery, in a few moments, was crowded to excess. The
backs of all the seats in the body of the House were la-
belled with the names of Members.

Lord ALTHORP presented a petition from the county
of Northampton in favour of the plan of Reform.
Bfr. CARTWRIGHT said that, the petition did net
contain the sentiments of the majority of the freeholders of
Northamptonshire.

After a few observations from Mr. V. SHITWand Sir
G. ROXINSON, the petition was brought up and ordered to
be printed.
Lord ALTllollP,..thcn presented a petition balm the
county of Perth in favour of Reform ; and a similar one
front Towcester, in the county of Northampton.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Corpo-
ration of Leeds against the proposed plan of Reform ;
and similar ones from Doncaster, Bradford, and B 'rnsley.
Lord MORPETH was requested to state that the peti-
tions from Doncaster and Bari.sley did not speak the senti-
ments of the majority of the inhabitants of these towns;
neither were they agreed to at a public meeting.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said the petitions were most re-
spectably signed ; and the reason of a public meeting not
having been called was in consequence of the opponents of
the measure being convinced that they should be defeated
not by argument hut by clamour.
Mr. SYKES said the petitions did not contain the
names of one-twentieth of the inhabitants of the towns
from which they carne.
Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from
the county of Stafford in favour of the Reform Bill.
The petition was agreed to at the most numerous meeting
of freeholders ever assembled in that county, and the feel-
ing in favour of the Bill was unanimous. The petition
was signed by eleven Peers, and nearly 4,000 freeholders.
After a few words from Mr. C.. PELHAM, Sir CHAS.
MOHOAN, and Mr. CastersELL, the petition was ordered
to be printed.
Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the Chief
Constables and Clergymen of a district in the county of
Stafford, against the new beer shops; also a petition
from another district in the same county, for the extinc-
tion of negro slavery.
REFORM MEASURE.

Lord JOHN lUJSSELL moved that the Order of the
Day for the adjourned debate on Parliamentary Reform be
read.

Mr. L. BULWER said, if he understood the ar-
gument of the Hon. Member fur Newark, it amounted
to a denial of the necessity' of Reform its Coto.
If this were the case he decidedly differed from that Hon.
Member. He considered the question of Reform to have
been decided ages ago, by the march of civilization and the
consequent progress of human. affairs. When his Ma.
jesty's Ministers came 'into office, they had to bring
forward a measure which wuuld pacify the angry feel-
ings of a discontented people. Ile wished, however,
.that some moderate scheme had been introduced,
but that, he was afraid, would not answer the immediate
purpo.e, while it satisfied the House, of pacifying the
country. He called upon that House to remember that
they lived in times when the middle classes were increased.
Times in which, if the great spirit of faction availed I
nothing, the power of public opinion was invincible, and
in which, when the, prerogative of sovereignty -was
put against the people, not even the. sword of
military authority thrown into the scale had been
found sufficient to turn the balance.—(Hear.) It was :01-
these reasons, first, that some measure of Reform was re-
quisite in our representation ; n-xt, that when there were
civil convulsions in almost every country, it was expedient.
and necessary to unite those classes having property with
the mil& classes, and that this, upon the whole, vv.e.s the
best that could he introduced, and at once aetieiactory and
safe. Tlie Ministerial nieisure met with his approbation.
Mr. -CAMPBELL wTs not disposed to find fault
with the train of address that the Honourable
Memher who last spoke bad adopted, further than to
hope that the present measure might pass, if it were
for no other purpose than to prevent the Honourab'e
Gentleman or any other. Member of that House talk-
ing of the Notep Lord who had .sent him there—
lartguago which had become almost as common in that
House as the expressions of his constituents, and which
would actually have horror-struck any- Honourable
Member in that House in ancient times. It
was to be . toped the time would speedily arrive
when such expressions could no longer be heard
of. His 'Mr, C.'s) principal object was to address
a few observations to the motion that bad been,
made by the Hon. and Gallant Officer oto the . other
side of the House. - That motion was that the Members
returned for England remairt, they being 513. For suet'
a resolution, he (Mr. C.) was totally ut a loss to dis-
cover any principle. What was. there 'magical or so
sacred in the number 13 ? Lord coke had... said
there was something simmlar in the numberi
there were twelve tribes of Egypt—twelve signs of the
zodiac,-twelve Disciples—twelve Apstles--twelve months-
in the year, and twelve Judges of England--4Laughtet)
-but what there was in 513 he had
yet to find out.
Again, with respect to the number 45 for Scotland, why
that number was to be preserved inviolate he had no means
of knowing. On the contrary, in going back to the
original resolutions between the Commissioners of England
3 tat the Commissioners of Scotland be found it was clearly

nderstood by the Commissioners of Scotland, and he
„ajavea by the Commissioners for England, thee the
umber might and should be varied. T::e Original
imposition was en the part of the Commissioiseri fir
'TATland that Scotland should send 38 representatives, but
at number was afterwards varied to 45. The Scotch cen
airily did not insist on having more, but they looked farwa d
to the British Parliament for leave to have the num.
her increased. Could it be imagined that whatever
the
-
hanges might take place with respect to the wealth and
lacrosse populafon of Scotland that the number of 45
should remain unveiled for ever? Should it' happen
that at any time there should be a large population,' and
idthtehna
that
i
a itn Eng
,si,uglte,aitn peraa,retto oiifn,
ir
t3iotain
of wealth in
it Scotlandbea
.nd should send 513 Members, and Scotland only
.15 ? There was abniality on the face of the piopifsi-
-ion. • • [low happened it that England returned 513
alert/11).es, whilst Scotland and Ireland retorted so
,co could
many h es? It arose from an absolute abuse of
toe prerogative of the Crown. It arose not from
Le representatives of large counties and popelons places,
but from an indisputable abuse of the Crown in
individuals brink vested with the power of rending Mem-
ases to that House. This was directly repugnant to the
I.'onstitution of .England, that Constitution required that the
-epressentatives of the people in Parliament should
`se returned by the people, and in no other way.
l'he principle of returning the Members to Parliament
east laid down so long ago as the time of Edward the
Pirst--he laid it down in the summonses which lie
'sued, and be (Mr. C.) trust rd that. the time was at hand
.when that principle would be recognized ;:g .in, end acted
upon in its hugest acceetetion. Although he did net con-
sider it a matter of paramouet importance, whether the
illatit General's Motion was or was not carried, and be-
lieved that even if it were; the Bill would nevertheless
pass, andibe a great boon; yet he would give the amend-
nent his decided negative, because he believed it would
ereatly.hamper the Noble Lord's ineeotne.
tle. FAME ceneldered the Noble Lord's Bill as calcu-
,ated to ,athstititte v:sionary schemes for the system which
had conferred grandeur and happiness on England, and
professed himself ignorant how any, man who was attached
-le the •Coestitutien could give it his support.' Three years
oeu the people of England appeared to be satisfied with
their representatioe, and within these three years nothing
ead occurred in England to induce them to alter their opi-
,iien. But within this period Franca had been revolu-
t-ionised—France had expelled an imbecile Monarch, and
now some people were anxious to imitate the example of
!Trance, not in the same case, but in the opposite one.—
['he French entbatted in a revolution fir the purpose of
preserving the •Constitution. Should we do so, it would
for the purpose of destroying ours. They were told
(ouch of the necessity of Reform—but little of its benefits.
The physical necesdi y for it he looked upon as a good argu-
asent ; and of its benefits, as he had said, they heard little.
The people lo shed fir retrenchment and reduction, but the
man who said these would result from Reform, or that
Reform would 01,6. rte individual d stress, deluded the
people. For so long 11,3 we had colonies, so long should we
maintain an army. So long as we hail commerce, we
s' ould keep up a navy. So long as there was a Monarch,-
we ahould have a Civil List. So long as we had a church,
we should have tithes; and so long as we regarded national
honour, so long should we pay the annual dividends.—
The million wished for a reduction of taxes—a faction
ftr the destruction of Church and State. It was with
certain of tie Reformers as with the Hon. Alembat for
Waterford, when he spoke of the repeal of the Union,
which he described as a measure simply for the good of
Ireland, while he really contemplated a separation between
the two countries.- So the,c RetUrmers, while they spoke
beette then. civil
tzar,
. came
of good to the people, really desired the overthrow a
Church and Monarchy. A great deal said in that
House and without its walls about cheap Goveinment ;
but it was a miserable delusion. Chants I. demanded
2,0)(01 ,tohe 00K/.
Kin,
was h its,
brought people;t,, thenbe seafoftl followed d
Cromwell, the. Prince of .Reihrtners, the sagest of Usurpers,
and he extorted ttfo millions from the people. So much
for Reform and cheap Government. The Bill of the Noble
Paymaster would not, in his mind, give a fair represeera-
tine to the people of England. The working clases were
stigmatized as unworthy of the right of suffrage, and the
moneyed interests were passed by; whereas in Parliament,
as at present constituted, all classes of the empire were
represented. The Noble. Lord's voters would consist
exclusively of landholders and houselielders--4t wag easy
to foresee what regard a Parliament returned by
those bodies would have to the national fd:h. lla
also objected most strenuously to the powers en-
trusted to a Commission of ails Privy Council. Ile
heel 'red that it was not possible for the Legislative
branch of the Government thus to delegate its- author ity.
He stated this, not simply on his own authority, but elso
upon that of Mr. Locke, who, in his Essay en Civil Go-
vernrneut, observes, " The Legislature cannot transfer the
power of making laws to any other bands. For it being
but a delegative power from the people, they who have it
cannot pass it to others. The people alone can appoint
the thrtn of the Commonwealth, which is by constituting
the legislative, and appointing in whose hands that shall
be. And when the people have said we shall subMit to
rulers, and be gaveined by laws made by such men, ant
he such forno nobody else can say other .men shall make
laws for them. The 'power of the Legislative being de-
rived from the people by a positive Voltintsey grant std
institution, can be no other than whet that positivegrant
conveyed, which being only to make laws, and not to make,
Legislators, the 'Legislative can have no power to transfer
the making of laws and place it in'other hands." The
legislatiVe-branCh of the Constitution had no authority to
transfer their power to other hands ;' neither they nor the
people of England could be hound by any such ttarisfers.
He also opposed the Bill upon the ground that it Was in
violation of the Acts of Union with Scotland and Ireland,
and obseived, that there had been many propositions fee a
repeal of the Union between England and these countries,
but never once for an increase of tae repreaenta-
tion. The Noble Paymaster had last night ; read
part of a speech of Mr. Pitt's, which made in ids
favour; but if he had gone one sentence farther than he
did, he would hive found that it made against hint
" For my own part, Sir, I will fairly confess, that upon
this pail of the subject it does appear to me extremely
difficult to find any precise; ground upon which to form a
correct calculation, or to entertain a positive preference fur
any one specific number of Members rather titan a:lett-me ;
but I am the less anxious about it, because I do not con-
sider the consequences as very important. In my view of
' representation, founded upon the experience of our Con-
stitution, I think we are entitled to say, that if a nation
become united with us in interests and affection, it is a
matter of small .linptirtance whethei the number of re-
presentatives- from one part of the United Empire be
greater or less. If there are enough to make known the
local wants, to state the interests, and convey the senti-
ments of the part of the empire they represent, it will
produce that degree of general seculity, which will be
wanting in any vain attempt to obtain that degree of
theoretical perfection, about which in modern times
we havo
,heard so much. Considering it in this point
of view (if the interests of the two countries are
identified, and the number of representatives are ade-
qtfate to the purposes I have mentioned), I really think
the precise number is not a matter of great importauce.
At the same titre, when it is necessary that the number
should he fixed, it is necessary to lame recourse to some
principle to guide our determination ; and I em not aware
of any one that can more properly be adopted, than that
which was laid down in the discussions upon that part of
the subject. in the Parliament of Ireland ; I mean a re-
ference to the supposed population of the two countries,
end to the proposed rate of contribution." But lie asked
what was their principle was merely convenience.
It was open to any Irish or Scotch Member to bring the
question of the breach of Union before Parliament ; for
coming under the guise the Bill did, it was an insult to the
three United Kingdoms. The Noble Viscount said 'he did
not envy that man's heart who could oppose—(The Noble
Lord said something in explanation across the table,:ivhich
was not atelible in the gallery.)—Well, although the NON
Lord slid not say it, lie would nevertheless say, he did not
envy that mat's heart which had conceived the Bill,—for
it was founded oft corruption and trelfic, and was directed
to the basest passions.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILBRAHAM rose to give a decided negative to
the Gallant General's motion. He was not alarmed at the
anticipated introduction of either Irish Catholics or Scoteet
Presbyterians ; and he approved of the diminution in the
Members, of the Hotise, as he considered business could
be better dune by a smaller number. In expressing these
(vim 'sans' he was acting consistently with his professions
,
through life. He had alwilyi been a Reformer. When he
first entered the House, he was in hopes that it would be
induced to turn its eyes to reform 'its own abuses, and...r:
effect a safe and gradual, and moderate Reform, by
th tt-
, franchising tyre rotten horoughs, and transfers jug
;to populous towns; but when he had been I.ongetirni,_
'llouse,sand came nearer to the- scene ofealetioann,d
Cotninittees—observingehow cage,
.s.a.atljoi,k "
„,as env -
sa
rn
over -corruption, acrd howl
difficulties,
nud
,iise taede of operation in the House
w__ ibratih,ne
eve n
hard in legal and technic
d linquency of borottgit,,
f get' to transfer
e d_the flout. re u,
of East ilet.er
Y
lous town—he deTaited „f
as
franchise ta " (i•P,aut and eoini.rehet sive se .erne
any thing except a great in eases of the e.tablo,he e