The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-09 00:00:00

redress. I might, among others, quote the name of my learned
Friend who the other day moved the Address, who has deliver-
ed his opinion, that delegations were not only a harmless but a
useful mode. of repairing public grievances. I will 'admit that
it was a tangible point in 'the law on which to act, when oaths
were administered in Ireland ; it might be then fairly said, we
will not admit oaths to be administered in this form, as they
- are calculated to disturb the public- peace; but-When I see in
the Catholic
.Association no outward forms attended to—no pro-
ceeding take pi* to whiCh there. can be any rational objection,
I ask what, in putting down this Association, will you have
done more than to get rid of words, and words only? You
• may object to. the words Catholic Association—Catholic Rent—
and the word Rent I admit to be a very disagreeable one—but
what will you have done when you have gotten rid of them ?
I remember that some years ago, when a certain Noble Lord
was the Irish Secretary; he exerted himself to put down what
was •.then called the Catholic Committee, and in a short time
this Catholic Committee was no more heard of. It is now the
Catholic Association; and the Noble Earl may, perhaps, exert-
himself as successfully to get rid of the words Association and
Rent; but the question is, will not the people still pay that
rent ? Several of' my Noble Friends, who have filled offices in
Ireland; mast be aware how difficult it is to make theirish pay
any thing. With this feeling the taxes have been, in a great
degree, removed from them ; but I know that they will find it
much more difficult to prevent them from paying, especially
when they are deterred front it by Acts which they dislike. I
have heard that many have found it difficult to get money into
their pockets in opposition to the law, but I have never heard
that any have found any difficulty in getting it out, whatev,r
law may have existed to prevent them. I will tell the Noble
Lords what I think they may be able to do, although they will
not make the rent less, they may make it more. I remtember
the story of a French poet—M. Piron I think it is—who, on the
night before his volume of poems came out, went to a frieed,
and said to him—" Pray go to the academy, and say that you
I think my verses detestable. Let them condemn them, and I shall
be sure to sell the whole edition." For my
.part, if I were al-
lowed a poundage on this Catholic Rent, r would say, when the
Parliament bad met, " this Catholic Rent is a terrible thing."
I would endeavour to get the Parliament to discountenance
it, because I should then be sure to increase my • profits. It
I is certain that when an alarm has been excited, exertions
would proportionally increase, and with them a determination
to carry resolutions, although privately, into effect. I say again,
that your Lordships may get rid of the name "Catholic
Rent," but I repeat that you will do nothing more. I.know
story relative to Ireland, which, although a somewhat ludicrous
one, was not without its application to the present question,
and which would show how ignorant our ancestors were OA all
.subjects which concerned that country. In a remote part of
Ireland, where disturbances and outrages were too frequent,
about the time of the reign of Henry VIII., the Irish were in
the habit of exciting themselves by calling out—" Butler-a-boo,"
-boo," and " Crom-a-boo." The wise persons who were in
that day Governors of Ireland, wrote over to this country ac-
counts that those two words were the cause of all the mischief
and all the outrages, and that 'they must therefore be put
down. The .Cabinet consequently met on the subject; his-
, tory does not say whether or not there was a division on the
question, but it is certain that they came to the resolution of
putting lown those two words, " Butler-a-boo" and " Crom-
! a-boo ;" and they resolved also that the words should be abo-
lished from the Irish language. As they had, however, some
feelings of humanity, and as they knew that the Irish must
L have some cry, they ordained that they might be in future per-
t mitted to cry out " St. George ;" but that if they cried either
." Butler-a-boo" or " Crom-a-boo," they were to bepunished.
1-do not know whether they afterwards cried the one word or
'the other, but I know that they continued to commit as much
1 violence and as many outrages. as before. I do not mean to
compare the Catholic Association with those barbarians, nor
do. I mean to make any comparison of those legislators with
the framers of our modern laws ; but I know that' they have
been equally railing at words, and words alone. Your Lord-
.
ships must calculate the consequences of the measures it is
intended to 'propose before you adopt them, because-you will
not be able to say " if we fail we fail, and simply leave
things as they. were • before." Would not • the person to.
whom I have alluded be as able, if lie had the will. to do it,
to do as much mischief after as before he had been. brought
• into the Court of Dublin ? I hope it is unnecessary for me
to say that, in thus troubling your Lordships, I- have not
sought, nor have I thought it necessary to seek, for an opportu-
. tunny of apologising for the proceedings of the Catholic Associa-
tion. With respect, however, to that body, although after what 1
have said, I must be of opinion that I have no right to judge
of them from the reports 1 have received, I have no objection
to say that, if those reports be true, 1 have seen much in their
conduct and proceedings of which 1 must disappr,ver but I must
add, that I cannot conceive any large body. 'of people, more
especially of people labouring under grievances, -realor ima-
ginary, and deprived of what we Protestants call religious
rights, whO are capable of carrying on debates without some-
times introducing blameable mafter, without saying told doing
much which I; and all persons looking at the sabject-as I do,
must entirely' disapprove.. But if I disapprove of mu h, I also
know- that- of.' many of their proceedings I approve highly ;
and I therefore think it would be unwise to put them down,
even if it were possible to extinguish their proceedings; which
undoubtedly had their birth in the feelings of the country. I
know that there exists a feeling in the mind of every man,
arising out •of his degraded state in society, if such be his
situation; which it is impossible for. the l.egisiature of the
- country to take hold of. and which no rational man would at-
tack, becaiise it must elude his grasp. If such be the case of
a single member of society, how much more must if be so of
large body. I have always thought it better for all parties that,
ins country divided by religious and political dissensions, the
people should find an opportunity of expressing themselves
openly to the rest of the community, and of stating their
grievances, whether founded or ill-founded, in ataOPen and
public manner, anti neither in secret nor confined, resembling
-in this respect those. unhealthy vapours which only remained
unhealthy and mischievous so long as they were prevented
from rising, but which, the moment they were allowed to mix
with the pure air, lost at once their mischief and their nature.
But the specific grounds on which my mction rests are these :
that when we are called upon to provide a remedy for an evil,
and especially when we are called upon to do so by the Speech
from the Throne, it is but right for us to inquire what this evil
is ; it is imperative that- we know against what evil'we are
called upon to provide a remedy, and to know it tiOns those
whose duty it is to take the dimensions of it. If we have not
this information we are not competent to judge of the evil, and
therefore we are unable to consider of a remedy, which I think
it would be perhaps almost hopeless, but which would.be, at all
events, difficult to' provide. On these grounds. I nioVe your
Lordships, that an humble Address be presented to his Ma-
jesty, Praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to
order copies of all dispatches made by the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, relative to the origin, progress, and nature of the Reli-
gious and Political Societies in that country. • -
The Earl of LIVE It POOL—My Lords, when any "Noble
Lord rises upon any subject, he may as well know what is the
subject upon which lie means to address the House; and when
any individual rises to 'make a pioticn upon any paitieular
prospective proceeding, he might as well wait, when a few days
'must explain what the nature of the intended proceeding is. It
is true, that in the Speech which yOur Lordships have heard
from- the Throne, his ,Majesty, after congratulating your Lord..
ships and the country upon the national prosperity in which
Ireland participates, alludes to, the existence of associations in
that country, which have been productive of the worst conse_
further recommends you
what tqou ecnocnessiderl twi
L"retmhaedt yhims laylajbeestyapplied to correct this evil,
and prevent these ill effects ; and it is true that an Address has
been carried up, in which your Lordships reply that you will
consider the mewls-of applying a remedy to the evil. • There
the matter rests. The Noble Lord knows, or
.he might
by the •votes of the House, that it is the intention of biapie
t'c;
•jesty's Government to introduce some' measure appl)
ded ctle coo-
the evil, which your Lordships were recommended
that Mee-
sider, but he might have, waited' to know
and object, of widen, judging t'rom his
that no attempt
sure was 'he might haVe waited to learn
completely ignorant. The Noble Lord has nwhletsse:Mb4sttealt.
e- subject without in-
ahould be made to abridge the liberty
eb-,etio'lbie Lord if the.'ltonse
the House. :I would agree with
ro Didid
quirt'—without information having
bpW
which
he of 'general twitofiety ;
to act. Theee grounds, however,
founded upon facts, -kti;*n to
(_,°f upon the ta-Me 'of
be
to any MeMber of his iltajty's
ofL oirndforamcia.
every Noble Lord, as well ai
Lori} had, hiniself, acted- tiiitan this
Government. 'Cho SQ.ble I shall refer. Two yea'
to which . .11.pgO,
principle at a perm(
introducedslid
the
for the suppression itir the
pnrootpkonseodwrfitheeasugrreo.tnen,6, upon ti"v'hicli they were calk-47,11pm
when measures were
.dh
the house act ?
P 7 astkea Ntitotblele
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