The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-01 00:00:00

nary expenditure in prospect of war, the taxpayers
would do well to protest, through their representatives,
against it as ruinous and dangerous to the country.
Mr. HENLEY was surprised that no Member of the
Government had risen to offer some explanation con-
cerning the present vote; for on the face of the estimate
itself there was no explanation which seemed to bring it
within the recommendation of the Committee of last year.
It appeared from a note in the estimates that the sum of
120,0001., proposed to be voted, would be applied
"chiefly" to the south basin and docks, and therefore it
seemed to be left in doubt whether or not the money was
not to be applied also to some other part of the scheme.
Now, if the money were not required for carrying out
existing contracts, or for the completion of the cofferdam
within the recommendation of the Committee of last
year, he should be inclined, unless some satisfactory ex-
planation were given for departing from the recommend-
ation of the Committee of last year, to vote against the

grant.
Sir F. BARING said, that the reason he had not risen
before was, that as these arrangements were not made
by him, but by former Boards of Admiralty, he thought
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Corry) who had for-
merly been Secretary to the Admiralty tho proper person
to give an explanation respecting them. With regard to
the recommendation of the Committee of last year, to
whiete the Hon. Member (Mr. Henley) referred, that
was carried out strictly by the Government, and the
present vote was in conformity with that recommenda-
tion. Ho was aware that there would be diirerences of
opinion as to the expediency of commencing such an out
lay, but, though it might seem large, he had heard from
au horitics well worthy of attention, that thia establish-
ment, when formed, would be of great value in case of
war; and the question was—whether, having expended
a considerable sum on the works, they would throw
that all away or proceed in carrying those works
to completion.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") The
money he now asked for was money required under
exiting contracts, and he believed the contracts went
further than the sum he wished the Committee now to
vote. If the amendment were carried the works would
be stopped and all previous expense rendered useless,
and a conslderable sum beside.s must be paid to the con-
tractors for not carrying out the contracts.—(Hear,
hear.) His Hon. Friend (t it W. Molesworth) had not
brought forward an amendment like the present last
year, under the idea, n. doubt, that the country was
bound by contracts; but, having then allowed the works
to ge on, would it be wise in his Lion. Friend now to stop
them?—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY inquired what portion of the 120,0001.
would be required to complete the works which the Com-
mittee of last year recommended, and how much further
the Government was b und by existing contracts?
Sir F. BARING replied, that the whole sum was re-
quired under the contacts.
Mr. HENLEY thought that, after the recommenda-
tion come to by the Committee of last year, the estimate
oft its face should clearly show that the expenditure was
to ha limited to that particular branch of works within
the recommendation of the Committee.

Sir F. BARING repeated that the Government had
carried into effect the recommendation of the Committee.
Captain BERKELEY, in reference to the argument
used by an Hon. Gentleman (Ur. Cobden), that it was
not necessary for the Royal Navy to have a steam•basin,
because there was no such thing as a steam-basin for the
mercantile navy, requested the Hon. Member to look to
the East and West India Docks, and see it th-,re were no
steam-basins there.

Mr. PETO said that be had exa.rainel the works at
Keyham, and there would have been, in his opinion, no
difficulty in having a close estimate of the total outlay
beforo the comm,3ncement of the works.

Mr. COWPER explained that the sum of 120,000/.
proposed to be voted would be applied to the works con-
nected with the cofferdam according to the recommenda-
tion of the Committee of last year.
Mr. COBDEN. observed, that ~hat he had stated was
that no private steam-boat lniilder had a Lasin for the
purpose of putting steam-engines and boilers on board
ship; and he repeated the statement.
Mr. B. SMI i'H thought that a very small sum might
be necessary to complete a sea wall, and the making of
docks and basins might be reserved till same future op-
portunity.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... ... 27
Against it ... 101
Majority ... --74
The vote W 33 then agreed to; as also was a rote of
68,4001. for naiseellaneous services.

Oa the next vote, which 1Y35 232 2521. to complete the
slim necessary for the charge of half-pay officers of the
Navy and Royal Marinea.
Mr. M. GIBSON, referring to his statement on a
farmer occasion with regard to the number of officers,
observed that in what he had said he had the authority
of a very distinguished officer in the British navy, Sir
J. Stirling, who stated before the Lords' Committee
that we bad got 8,000 officers of one kind or another in
the navy, and that we only wanted 4,000, and that by
bringir g the number within its proper limits the officers
would be in almost continual employment, their skill as
well as their emoluments would be increased, and there
might be effected by this and the contemplated reduction
in respect of pensions, &c., a saving equal to the keep
of 20,000 able seamen.

Sir F. BARING thought as an Hon. Member (Mr.
name), who was absent, unwell, intended to bring this
subject before the House, it would be better to discuss
it when should do so.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY called attention to the num-
ber of cadets introduced, as being beyond what could be
adv-Anced.
Sir F. BARING remarked that the Ccmmittee recom-
niecded a limit, and there was now a limit by a minute
of Lord Auckland's. The number introduced in the
year was not to exceed 100.
The vote was then agreed to, as also was a vote of
300,561/. to complete the charge for military pensions
and allowances, of 61,357/. for civil pensions and allow-
ances, and 147,2001. for freights and stores on account of
the army and navy ordnance department.
The next vote was a sum of 748,29 a/. for the Post-
office packet service.
Mr. FLOYER wished to know how the sum for con-
veying the mail to the Channel Islands, which was for-
merly 2,0001. when carried from Weymouth, was now
rated to 4,00e1.?
Mr. COWPER said the increase in the amount from
2,0001. to 4,0001. was caused by the circumstance that,
when contractors were last advertised for, the only par-
ties who made an offer were the old contractors, and, as
they made a tender for double the amount they formerly
had, there was no alternative but to concade it. As to
the second point, when Weymouth was the point of em-
barkation, the packets belonged to Government; but
the contractors who afterwards got the mail preferred
Southampton. There were reasons for thinking that
Weymouth was a better point of embarkation than
Southampton, but Government was not always at liberty
to select the port in such cases.
In answer to a question by Mr. FLOYER,

Mr. COWPER said, when the contract was adver-
tised, the port of Southampton alone was mentioned, as
it was not considered that Weymouth would be so con-
venient a port till the works at the Isle of Portland were
finished. 4

Sir T. ACLAND asked when the period would expire
for carrying the East and West India mails from the
port of Southampton?
Mr. COWPER replied tt.gt the contract might be
terminated on the Ist of January, 1853.
In answer to a question by Mr. MONSELL,
Mr. COWPER said, till the contract for the North
American mails terminated, the Government could not
carry into operation any plan for making Valentin the
port of embarkation.
Mr. COBDEN thought this vote should not be allowed
to pass without a few words. The large sum of 748,0001.
here put down might make it appear that there was no
profit from the Post-office system at all since it was re-
formed ; but it was to be considered that very large sums
were expended in carrying the mails betwixt such places
as Alexandria and Beyrout ; Singapore and Sydney,
New South Wales; and between Ceylon and Hong•
Kong. For the last a sum of 45,0001. was charged; and
for the carrying of the mails betwixt this country and
the West Indies there was a sum of no less than 240,0001.
a year, while the gross amount of postage received was
not more than 80,000/. a year. Nuw, it could not be ex-
pected that the Fost-office department would carry let-
ters at such a cost to the West [tidies without some ade-
quate motive; and that motive he believed to be, to put
it in the power of the Government to avail themselves in
time of war of the large steamers required for this ser-
vice, and which, according to contract, were made to
carry guns. He hoped, however, that this vote would
not go forth in such a way as would be calculated to in-
jure Post-office reform in the eyes of the world. He
thought that in making these Post-office arrangements
respect Should be had to the number of letters to be
carried from one place to another. He was not in favour
of those charges being placed to the account of the Ad-
miralty; but at the same time he thought that greater
care might be taken in makin the arrangements.
Sir F. BARING believed that the arrangements as to
the %Vest Indfes were in existence before the Post-office
reform took place. They took upon themselves the duty
of establishing communications with every part of the
empire, and in doing so they were not to consider whe-
ther every communication would pay or not, but whether
it was necessary to the commerce of the country.—
(Hear.) Nor did he think that these expensive commu-
nications to India, and other parts of the empire, at all
told against Post-office reform.
Mr. COBDEN admitted the great advantage of having
Post-office communication with all parts of the world,
but he 'thought ouch communication should have some
reference to the number of letter; passing to and from
this country. According to the system of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, a direct communication might be
started at once betwixt this country and New Zealand.
Mr. HENLEY thought these expenses had been very
much forced upon the country by the arguments of the
commercial classes, who sought every facility for extend-
ing commerce.—(!fear.)
Mr. BRIGHT had understood his Hon. Friend only to
say that reference should be made to the number of let-
ters carried in any arrangement made, and that we should
not expend 246,000/. when only 60,000 L was derived
from letters. The contrary principle was a very object.
tionable one indeed. Whatever steps might be taken
with reference to matters connected with the Post-office,
he always had entertained a strong conviction that
nothing ought -to be done in any manner calculated to
interfere with the success of the penny postage through-
cut the United Kingdom. He considered it most im-
portant not to allow foreigners for a moment to suppose
that the penny postage had been a failure. The intro-
duction of it was a great reform, and hardly any reform
eoitld be greater or more important.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER oh-
served, that th.) penny postage had no connexi ,n what-
ever
entwith steam navigation, but, as the former had beer'
m
ioned, he might be permitted to say, that looking at
the result of the penny postage, no experiment could
have been more satisfactory
factory tan it had proved. The
"114)91 letfts" passing through the Post office had

Joh v, ATEE AT LONDON 131:11.4E.

Tais Dia —34orling,sl rain. after 8 Evening, 31 min. after 9
To-Mom:ow—Morning, 10 min. after 10 Evening, 49 rain. after 10