The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-15 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL.

Earl GREY said he rose for the purpose of drawing the
attention of the House to certain questions which had been
put to him last night by the Noble Earl opposite (the
Marquis of Londonderry), relative to the affairs of Por-
tugal. He had to inform their Lordships that the papers
which the Noble Earl was anxious to have produced were
in a state of forwardness. The Noble Lord also asked for
the opinion of the King's Advocate, and the case upon
which that opinion was founded. He would observe, that
when, under the late Administration, a proposal wns made
to have the opinions of his Majesty's Attorney and Solidi
tor-General with reference to the case of Terceira, the
Noble Earl, then at the head of the department for Foreign
Affairs, did not consider it incumbent upon him to pt.,
duce those opinions. Before he took any steps towards
the production of the opinion of the King's Advocate, he
thought it advisable to inquire of that person whether
he had any objection to have that opinion produced ?
His answer was, that lie had no objection to have that
opinion brought forward; but he was anxious, if the opi-
nion was produced, that the case upon which it was founded
should be also produced. He would now inform the Noble
Earl, that he would have no objection to produce that
opinion ; but, at the same time, he wished it to be under-
stood that these papers were produced ass matter of favour,
and not to be considered as establishing a precedent for the
future.

The Earl of ELDON said, the case had been correctly
stated by the Noble Earl (Grey,) that it was not usual
to produce legal opinions. It was unquestionably, a
correct view of the case that such opinions should net
be produced. The opinions of his Majesty's Attorney
and Solicitor-General were considered as confidential be-
tween them and his Majesty's Government. He
recollected an opinion of Sir Fletcher Norton, where
he declared he would never give a written opinion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was happy
to express his thanks to the Noble Earl opposite for the
promised production of those papers, which he was de-
sirous to see. He was, however, anxious to have the
case upon which that opinion was founded also laid be-
fore him, as there were some part of the Noble Earl's con-
duct towards Portugal which be could not approve, and
he hoped that they would make out a ease in favour of the
conduct of Government towards Don Miguel, which he
should otherwise consider disgraceful. He looked upon
the conduct of the French in carrying off the Portuguese
ships from the Tagus as highly discreditable, which as
soon as they arrived in Brest would probably be manned
by French sailors and sent against Don Miguel to over-
turn the Government. He thought that Don Miguel had
strong claims upon this country. It was the party of
the Miguelites against the liberal party in Portugal,
which enabled the British forces to expel the French
front that country. He had a strong opinion on the
subject ; he had served with the armies of that
country in that effort to expel the invader, and he
should not forget the essential services which had been
rendered by those troops on that occasion. The Miguel-
ites were the loyal party, and entith d to the respect and
support of this country. He had asked another question,
which, however, had not been answered. He wished to
know for what purpose this country had sent out two line-
of-battle ships to the Tagus. He wished to be informed if
any new grievances had taken place to justify that force
being sent to Portugal, or to require their presence, as from
information which he had received he believed there was.
—(Cheers.) Noble Lords should hear him conclude his
sentence before they honoured him with their cheers. He
had heard, from what he considered good authority, that
complaints were made of the conduct of the British Consul
at Lisbon. He had heard that the serjeant who had drag-
ged the
person colours o
f fromthe
the
e nameColonelof
Pinto,of h
had
come regiment, a
over
and an-
other
in
the
English packer, and were now in this country without the
permission, and without receiving passports, from the Bri-
tish Consul at Lisbon. He could prove by evidence at the
bar of the House, the statements which he had made upon
the affairs of Portugal, upon the authority of Sir John
Campbell, and which would prove that there was nothing
in the present state of affairs in that country to warrant
this country in sending two line-of-battle ships to the
Tagus. Having received that information from so re-
spectable a source, he considered himself perfectly justified
in stating it publicly in his place. It was insinuated that
he was mistaken in the statement he had made with regard
to the proceedings of Mr. Hoppner. Now three
months before he had received the communication
which Sir John Campbell had made to him, that in-
dividual had transmitted the same information to
Sir Herbert Taylor, for the purpose or being
laid before the Government. It had, however, been re-
turned to receive alterations, which might be more agree-
able to the Noble Earl. That individual had done his
duty as an honourable man in making that communication
to the Government; and having fulfilled what he con-
sidered to be hie duty in that respect, it was perfectly con-
sistent for him to offer it to any other Member of that
House, who would bring the matter under the considera.
tion of their Lordships. He (the Marquis of London-
derry) had made that statement to the House, the truth
of which he was prepared to prove by evidence. In the
paper which had been sent to him there was no statement
of the prisoners who were confined at. Lisbon. He wished
to know if any statement relative to that point was con-
tained in that which had been sent to the :Noble Earl. He
did not mean to say that the pane.; had been seen by the
Noble Earl (Grey). It ought have been placed in a red
box, and sent to the Noble Baron. It might have thence
passed into the hands of a secretary, anti have passed un-
heeded. It was sufficient for his purpose, that it had been
sent to the Government; and if their Lordships believed
the statement which h id been made by Sir John Campbell
to Sir Herbert Taylor, they must come to the corn:Within
that the proceedings of Mr. Happner were any thing but
proper. It was the Noble Earl, hirue4'if who was alone
mistaken. }le wished to state that, as he would not allow
any Minister to say he ww mistaken, or that he had tv,a.li,
a statement which he could not prove. He t\.ought it
eecessary to say so much, to defend his cb,a:acter in these
times, when persons were disposed ~,a asperse the motives of
those who had the detertnipAtion to do their duty.
Earl GREY said that the Noble Earl seemed to feel
very indignant that any one should suppose that he
could '...),a mistaken. Now all men were liable oeca,sticutally
to make mistakes. It was happy for the Noble Earl
that his superior intelligence raia4 him in this regard
above the common lot of humanity.—(A laugh.) He
objected to answer all the questions which the Noble 47:art
might think proper to propose to him. Hg begged to
;',-tanre the House that he had not seen the letter at the
time at which the debate took plac.n when he expressed a
favourable opinion of Mr. 741,oppner. Ile was ikuite sure
he had not seen tie :enter at the time; but if he had, it
would not in the least have altered hie opinion of that in-
dieisluar, or the merits of the ease. The letter which he
had rt c:ived from Sir Het beet Taylor was A private coin-
munication which he did not think of sufficient import-
ance
to be brought forward,. Tin it letter was very differ-
ent from the one whinh had come under the inspection, of
the Noble Earl,---it contained some general observations
and a very high panegyric of the co,elvt and private
worth of Don Miguel.
prisons The oNfoblileisbEona.rl hlsadwaisnqsuciirteedd
tii,"oollo'persons contintai at Lisbon, charged
whether any allusion had I.,.een made to the nttmher of
gainst the Slate ; hut that was not the
personstiattli
tiioatiecl confined nwwficen:eeda,
one-third of the aetnak Dumber. He confessed that the
statements of that letter did not create in his mind any
high opinion of the accuracy of Sir John Campbell, or
make such an impression, upon him as to think the
' letter of sufficient importance to be laid before that
noose. Sir john Campbell was not himself cogni-
iant of the transactions, tie must have received his
information from others, and could• not be cons'd,ra 1
good authority in this case. A letter was expected from
, Mr. Hoppner ; and when that aeriv,ed,, it wocald offer an
explanation. He did not consider it necessary to go far-
ther into that part of the subject ; but with regard to the
question which the Noble Earl had proposed relative to

•
the motive* which induced Government to aleepatcli titr,a
ships of war to the Tagus, he did not think he was called
upon to give any reply. With regard to the question
whether any new grievances had taken place, he wutild in-
form the Noble Earl that many complaints had been made
of the conduct of the Portuguese Government. Coln-
plaints had come from the British Consul, from the officer
commanding the English fleet in the Tagus, and from the
British merchants residing at Lisbon. But to and• ques-
tions which the Noble Earl might think proper to ask re-
lative to the views of the Government with regard to the
foreign policy which it might be advisable to adopt, he
cou'd not make any reply; and should such question.; he
repeated, he should feel it his duty to preserve *hence on
that subject. It might be in the recollection of the House
how confidently it had been stated, on a former occasion,
that the French ships were retained in the Tagus for the
purpose of overawing the Portuguese Government, and
forcing that country to concede great commercial advan-
tages to France. When, however, a letter was written
to the French Minister fur Foreign Affairs, he expressed
the greatest surprise, and disclaimed any such intention.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he thought it
very hard, that whenever he proposed any question to the
Noble Earl opposite, that Noble Earl turned it into per-
sonality to him. He did not think such conduct cre-
ditable to the high station which he held, nor to his can-
dour; he would not, however, notice that conduct-a-fii
would suffer it to pass without remark. He had no other
obj.•et in view but to do his duty. The Noble Eat I had
recommended patience, and that he should wait until the
motion was brought before the House. He (Eail Grey)
might, however, have produced the papers whirls he had
asked for, and which would prove whether his statement
were correct or not. The Noble Earl Raid he would be
silent when he :proposed questions ; he would, notwith-
standing, ask any questions which be considered of im-
portance, and such as were accustomed to be put by Mem-
bers of that House. He would, however, ask, whether
the tone of the Government had not aeon changed in con-
sequence of the question viiiich he hal put, and by the
part which had been Laken hyiNoble Lords on his side of
the House. He wished% to know whether the Noble Earl
had not changed the highi.opinion which he had enter-
tained of French honour. •'He thought he had. He hoped
he would also change his conduct towards Portugal, and
re-establish our relations with that country.
Earl GREY said, be was not aware of having used any
personality towards the Noble Lord, of which he had a
right to consplain. The expressions which he had used
were quite within the usage of Parliament. Did not the
Noble Lord recollect with what declamation he assailed the
Government for having sent ships to the Tagus ? Ile
certainly was not very measured in the epithets of disap-
pro'oition which he applied to that act. The Noble Earl
supposed that the Government had derived great advan-
tage.and benefit from his interlocutory observations in the
management of public affairs, and he expressed a hope
that as the Government had, by his advice, changed their
policy towards France, they would also take up his opi-
nions with regard to Portugal. The Noble Lord, no
doubt, was a very wise and discreet counsellor ; indeed,
that was clearly evinced by the general tendency of his
observations. He (Earl Grey), howev,r, could not see
the wisdom of those expressions which had an evident
tendency to involve this country in war.—(Hear, hear.)
He would assure the Noble Earl, notwithstanding, that all
that bad passed with regard to the affairs of Belgium, had
not been owing to any thing which had fallen from the
Noble Earl. The Government had not changed their
policy ; they had gone on as if he had never given art
opinion on the subject. He might flatter himself that he
was counselor fur foreign affairs from the Opposition
benches, and be would only say, with regard to the Noble
Lord's advice, that if perchance he did not coincide with
him, that fact would form good grounds for him (Earl
Grey) to reconsider his opinion.
_ _

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he only wished
to add one word, and that was bur to repeat what he had
said before, and to recommend to the Noble Earl to avoid
personality, and not to impute vanity or presumption to
him or to any other person who ventured to arnien the
conduct of his Government.—( Hear, hear.) He never in-
dulged in personality, and attacked not the Noble Earl
himself, but the conduct of his Government, and the
foreign policy by which he had hitherto guided his Ad-
ministration. He therefore felt that the personality in which
the Noble Earl indulged was inapplicable to him, and un-
worthy of the station which the Noble Earl held in the
country. He would, however, repeat that the Noble Elrf,
in the change of hit policy in the Belgian affair, had taken
the suggestion which came from his side of the House. and
bad listened to the advice of the four Powers against
France. He had fallen back upon the principles of the
quadruple alliance, and felt, at length, the propriety of
checking the agerandizement of France. It was evident
that he did so, in rescuing Belgium from the clutches, of
that country, and he only regretted that the Ministers of
Prussia and Austria, who had influenced him so strongly
on that point, had not urged him with the same success to
render justice to Portugal.--(Hear, bear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR left the woolsack. and
said he agreed with the Noble Marquis that these interlo-
cutory discussions, were as unprofitable as they were it re-
gular ; but this was a discovery he had made, not to-
night—he had made it the first time be met the Noble
Marquis in their Lordships' House : it was reserved for
the 14th of September, in the year of his Majesty, to
open the Noble Marquis's mind to this truth—that, ns
every day's experience more awl more confirmed him (the
Lord Chancellor) in his dislike of the practice, he cer-
tainly should nat fall into it w'thout necessity. He had
risen, however, now to discharge a duty to a more meri-
torious servant of the country, attacked while necessarily
absent in the discharge of his public titity. It was an ob-
servance dieteteel by right feelings and by a sense el justice
in both Houses of Parliament, to abstain from all attacks
upon men thus circumstanced, am! who could not defend
their official conduct, because the scene of that conduct
necessarily kept them far distant from the scene of the at-
tack.—(Hear, hear.) This measure of justice wee meted
out alike by friend and adversary—men neutral or indif-
ferent. But by a total departure from so just a rule, the
Noble Marquis again and again came down and made the
British Consul at Lisbon the object of unsparing invec-
tive. That gentleman he had not the honour of know-
ing,.—that gentleman he had never seen or corresponded
with. He had been promoted by the late lamented rela-
tive of the Noble Marquis himself (Lord Castlereagh,) and
therefore the Noble Marquis ought, of all persons, to hare
been the last individual to attack liisr. But the Noble
Marquis had a correspondent (Sir J. Campbell) of the
Portuguese service, and of the Miguelite party, connected
by marriage with that country; and all bin patty zeal
against Mr. Hoppner, inflamed only by Mr. Hopper's de-
termination to do his duty and protect his kuntry from
the tyranny and violence of the Nliguelites, was absorbed
by the Noble Marquis, became a part of his system, and
agitated his whole trams.,-(Hear, hear.) Such a witnesa
or such a judge of any man's conduct he had seldom seen.
appealed to. He knew him not, excepting by his letters;
but though of those to the Noble Marquis he could not
well judge, having heard them only partially, he yet could
form some notion of his capacity as an arbiter of official
merit, by those others which he was better acquainted
with, Of those to the Noble Marquis he could only say,
that whatever might be the wisdom evinced by their con-
tents, their address betokened very little discretion.__
(Hear, hear.) But the other left his unfitness to judge
Mr. floppner out of all doubt. lie said there were 6,000
persona in Miguel's dungeons. But what of that? Whose
fault hut their own was it? Why bad they made
ditty:selves unpleasing to Don Miguel? And the parallel
ease which he wisely referred to in vindication of this
enormous outrage (though instead of 6,000 there might
be nearer 30,000 persons) was the imprisonment of
Priooe Polignac it" Ham Castle!—Prince Polignac,
who was there in execution of a regular sentence, and a
merciful one, after being accused of the foulest treason,
puhlioly tried by his Peers, solemnly convicted by evidence,
arid leniently sentenced by the court that tried him. nits
was the case which Sir J. Campbell sagely deemed the
Kane with that of 6,000 or rather 30,000 persons loin
from their heals by night, and swept from the streets by
day, and flung into dungeons, unsentenced, unconvicted,
untried, unacculed—in utter ignorance of the charge against
t. em. Nothing he saw or ever had seen in the history of
party astounded him so much as this love of defending Don
Miguel—this extreme soreness and sensitivettesa to any
charge made against that individual. It passed his powers
of comprehension. He could not imagine the love of at-
tacking a Miniatry—even of attacking his Noble Friend
(Etta Grey)—carrying any set of men so far as this. •He
knew what party was—" I have," said his Lordship,—
" I have been a party.chief, and given suck to faction,—
(Laughter,)
" And know how tender 'tis to love the babe;
" Yet could I tear it smiling in my face,
" And dash it to the earth,"
and coaxed to give it for its rattle the praise of
nlleocens, t
sooner than please and pamper it so—sooner than he won
of whom, 'nutting to say no evil, I shell ot,f,,
mayi.yreaak
nothing at all; but, of the class he
ft the :uv rdnsecof
tyrant
is deacemied,
as the great artist from wuboorniL,
Wham nionetruin, nee:
A tyrant, raid he, :get this homininuaque invisius terra
paint
ctal7=nst as expressively
forma honainus 'amen iniumnitate
genuite qui quarnqu vincit bellutts.' Let those who were
merino vastiesimas
mindedsu
now praise him, or any other of his caste or
tl•lass. If they did praise hits, that praise must flow IrTiLQ
oetrnieumo could

the bitterest feelings of faction.--(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Marquis had blamed the Noble Earl for dealing in
personality. The Noble Marquis said that it had given
hireconsiderable pain. - But, much as the Noble Marquis
had complained, he did not seem to feel very acutely cn
this occasion. Had he felt the' alleged personality so
reverely, he would have shrunk a little more under it. But
the Noble Marquis did not appear to be severely hurt at
it, and he supposed that he could not assume a feeling if he
bad it not.—(A laugh.) In short, the Noble 'Marquis
took the matter too calmly,
.he received the observations
of his Noble Friend too much in good part, considering
the alleged ferocity of the onslaught—(A laugh)—to in-
duce any person to believe that he was seriously incom-
moded by the attack.—(Hear, hear.} The Noble Mar-
quis said, that he was never personal ; but what did he
think of a constant charge against Ministers of degrading
the country under the feet of France? Is that no charge?
But he (the Lord Chancellor) would appeal to any man in
the House, except the Noble Marquis, if it could be a very
agreeable thing to be told that he was the mover of all this
Ministerial measures; that Ministerswere mere tools in the
Noble Marquis's hands; that he inspired them; that their
whole foreign policy was the dictate of his sense and wisdom :
Spiritus intus alit, totosque infuse per artus
,liens agitat modem et magno se corpore miscet."
But far worse was the complaint he had to make of these
speeches of the Noble Marquis. He and some of those be
acted with were constantly using topics of irritation to
wards Fr ince, and doing all they could to plunge us into
wars it seemed their whole object and their ruling desire.
Was a Member to be selected for attack—a point of onset
to he chosen ? Friendly disposition to France was the
chosen theme of abuse. Was a charge to be pointed, and
rendered snore fatal than all the rest ? The disposition
to conciliate our great and powerful neighbour was always
the burden of the accusation. Now in this country it
might signify less, where the disposition of the Parliament
and people, and the weight of the Noble Lord's authority,
were better known. But the prophet having more honour
out of his own country, his language was in France be-
lieved to be of far more serious import. Men saw a
noble person, of high rank and connexion, frequently ad-
dressing the House, and always to the same point of in-
vective, irritation, and hostility. The Noble Lord, too,
was a leader of the Opposition party in that House, ant
it was thought he spoke the sentiments of his followers.
He (the Lord Chancellor), as much as any man, abhorred
all ideas of base truckling or submission to France, or to
any Foreign Power. But he saw no spirit of aggression
there : he was rejoiced to see a spirit of peace and friend-
ship prevail, and he deemed it his most sacred duty to meet
it in the cordial feeling of mutual goodwill. France and
England friends, can preserve the peace of the
(Hear.) Let France be irritated into warlike courses, aro
the whole human race is cursed with war. That it would
be popular in the House and in the country to break tire
peace, seemed the notion of some Noble Lords ; but it was
none of his. On the contrary, he believed the Minister
who rushed heedlessly into war, would suddenly forfeit hi.
popularity, as he assuredly deserved to lose his head.—
(Hear, hear.) lie could assure their Lordships, that the
speeches in that House alarmed all our friends in France,
and they were the best friends of peace. He could read
private letters, as well as official ones, to prove the effect,
daily produced by these inflammatory discussions, and those
eavillings at our neighbours and their rulers. He was
anxious to lift up his voice in solemn protestation against
such perilous topics. He utterly denied that those whi
Lure their heedless part in them, spoke the sentiments of
any portion of the British people. He should not regret
the trouble he had now taken and given to their Lordships
if it gave him the occasion he cheerfully selzed, to utter
this declaration in the face of Parliament and the country.
He desired it might go on his authority and on his respon
sibility, to France, where he knew it would carry comfort
to all true friends of France and England, and peace, for
they were tl.e same party and the same persons.—(Hear.
hear.) It was with unbroken comfort and unspeakable
delight that he pronounced the proposition, and alike in-
teresting to the country he belonged to and the crown hr
served, and served all the more faithfully for proclaiming
this truth—that the Minister who plunged the country into
war would be overwhelmed with the loud, universal un-
sparing execration of the whole English, Scotch, and
Irish people. But that execration, he added for himself,
would not be more loud, nor more universal, nor more ur.
sparing, than such madness and such wickedness well de-
served from the whole of that united people.— (Cheers.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not be de-
terred by all the eloquence and all the power of language
possessed by the Noble and Learned Lord from doing his
duty. He did think that the efforts of the Noble and
Learned Lord had failed, when he ventured forth with all
his power and all his extraordinary language to heap on the
Prince who was now reigning over Portugal all the abuse
which he seemed to think him deserving of. The indivi-
dual had not been proved to be guilty, and lie ought to be
considered innocent until he was so proved. He did not
stand up to defend Don Miguel, but when there were state-
ments on one side and on the other, lie did object to the
condemnation of that individual until both sides were ex-
amined. On this there could be no doubt, that Don
Miguel was the acknowledged King of Portugal, however
Noble Lords might quarrel with his title. He did not pre-
tend to be such a scholar as the Noble and Learned Lord ;
he could not quote with so much facility as the Noble and
Learned Lord did. lie could only compare the Noble and
Learned Lord to Caesar :
Ple cloth bestride this narrow world
Like a Colossus, and we petty men
Walk under Iris huge legs."—(Great laughter.)
Should they not endeavour, then, to put him down, lao
did all he could to get them tinder by the extraordinary
lash of his eloquence?—(A laugh.) He really be-
lieved that the Noble and Learned Lord was brought
to that House for the purpose of assisting those who,
when questioned, wished to be silent.—(Cries of " Or-
der.") No sooner was a queetion asked, than the
Noble and Learned Lord started up from the Woolsack, and
took his position between it and that (the opposition) side
of the House. for the purpose of—
Lord HOLLAND rose to order. The assertion of the
Noble Marquis, that the Noble and Learned Lord was sent
to that House for sonic certain purpose, was extremely ir-
regular. It would be well if the Noble Marquis would
check the profusion and ardour of his eloquence, which led
him into assertions that were not at all reconcilable with
order.--(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, no man felt
a greater wish to ply personal respect to every Member
of that House than he did. But he must say, that coura
tesy was not always observed towards him. He well re-
collected the observation made by the Noble and Learned
Lord about braying his (Lord Londonderry's) bead in a
mortar.—(Laughter.) Had the Noble Baron called tire
Noble and Learned Lord to order on that occasion, lie
thought that he would have been justified in doing so.
But did any Noble Lord imagine that when the Noble and
Learned Lord had attacked him as he had done, he would
Pot attempt to answer it ? With respect to the remark
which had been made on him, he would say that lie
thought it would be a great blessing to the Constitution if
the Noble and Learned Lord would allow himself to Inc
brayed in a mortar first?—(Laughter.) He would ask
of any Noble Lord whether the whole courae of the Noble
and Learned Lord's speech was net decidedly personal?
He should say little more at present, but lie would take
other opportunities to answer what had been said by the
Noble and Learned Lord as to our relations with Portugal
and France. He bad never, although the Noble and
Learned Lord bad asserted it, wished for a war with
Fr a.uce. Let the Noble and Learned Lord prove the con-
trary, by any thing which he had said or done in that
Howie. But he would assert, that the Governnient
of
this country, in the negotiations which had been carried
on up to this time, bad shown a truckling spirit.—a fear
of supporting this country's old ally, on account of our
situation with France. lie alluded to the conduct of
France, in robbing Portugal of her fleet, as a circumstance
the most disgraceful that had ever been permitted by any
administration of this country ; and that he would prove,
when the proper time arrived. He could assure the Noble
and Learned Lord, that he would not return to these per-
sonal attacks, unless the Noble Lord provoked hies, by
endeavouring to put him down. He felt no desire to make
personal attacks; but at the same time he was little dis-
posed to put up with them.
The matter terminated here.
The LORD CHANCELLOR put off the Committee
on the Bankrupts' Court Bill until (as we understood)
Tuesday, when he intimated that it should positively come
on.—Adjourned.

SO USE OF COMMONS, SEPTEMBER 14.
Mr. BRISCOE presented a petition from inhabitants
of Clapham and Battersea, against persecution for the ex-
p of religious opinions, and complaining of the sen-
tence passed upon Mr. Robert Taylor,
The Earl of BELFAST presented petitions from Bel-
fast, and from various other places in Ireland, praying that
the accustomed grant might not be withdrawn from the
Kildare-street Society.
Colonel TORRENS presented a petition from an indi-
vidual named George Fuller, a non-resident, freeman of the
city of Canterbury, 'praying that he might not he deprived
of his, franchise.
Colonel TORRENS moved that an address be pre-
skented to his Majesty for copies of ,the , Royal instructions
*eat out to Governors in New South Wales and Van

Diemen's Land, respecting the mode of making allotments
of Crown lands.—• Agreed to. .

Mr. CHAPMAN presented a petition from a place in
the county of Westmeath, praying for the introduction of
a system of poor laws into Ireland. The Hon. IVember
said that althomth he had votted against the vague resolu-
tion on this subject which an Hon. Member (Mr. Sadler)
had brought forward the other night, yet he was quite
prepared to give his support to any defined and rational
[node of making a provision for the poor of Ireland.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from persons engaged
in the retail trades of the metropolis, praying that the
House would be pleased to pass a law to prevent the car-
rying on of those trades on a Sunday.
After a few words from Mr. PAGET, Mr. WILKS, and
Mr. HUNT, the petition was ordered to lie upon the table.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a parish in
the minty of Galway, praying for the disarming of the
yeomanry of Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of a parish in the county of Tipperary, praying that
the House would re-assume the Church property in that
county, and apply it to national purposes.
Sir It. VYVYAN wi bed to know what was meant by
the resumption of Church property on the part of that

House? -
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the meaning of the peti-
tioners was, that the Supreme Legislative power of the
Sate should deal with that property as should appear best
for the national interests. That the Legislature possessed
such a power, was plain from what had been done at the
period of the Reformation. He (Mr. O'Connell) fully
agreed with the petitioners.
Sir R. VYVYAN was not surprised to bear such senti-
ments from a Catholic Member. He supposed the object
of the petitioners and of the Learned Gentleman was, that
the property possessed by the Church should go back to the
Catholics.

Mr. O'CONNELL disclaimed any such desire on the
part of the Catholics of Ireland,—all they wanted was, that
those only who believed in the doctrines of a Church should
be obliged to pay for its support.
Mr. HUME was not a Catholic Member, and yet he en-
tertained precisely the same opinions as the Hon. Member
for Kerry on this subject.—(Hear.) They had been too
long meally-mouthed on this subject. It was high time
for them to speak out. There was not an individual whom
he met out of doors who did not agree with him with re-
gard to what should be done with the Church property.
Mr. LEFROY wished to correct what be was sure was
a misrepresentation of a speech which bad been made by
the lion. Member for Kerry on a former evening, and
which had been given in the public Journals. The Hon.
Member was made in that speech to assert that two-thirds
of the beneficed Clergy in Ireland were non-resident, and
that their duties were discharged by curates. That was a
gross mis.statement. There were 1,295 beneficed incum-
bents in Ireland, and it appeared from the latest returns,
that 1,132 of those were resident. In the same
speech, the Learned Gentleman was made to say, with re-
gard to the Rev. Archdeacon Magee, that he was in the
possession of eleven livings. The real fact was, that he
had only two livings and two sinecures. He (Mr. Lefroy)
would maintain, that the property of the Church was as
inalienable, and as sacred, as the private property of in-
dividuals.

Sir J. SEI3RIG HT said, that if the people of England
were obliged to support a Catholic clergy, they would feel
very indignant at being called on to do so ; and he sup-
posed that a somewhat similar feeling pervaded the Ca-
tholic people of Ireland. He was for treating the pro-
fessors of all religious alike ; and he was sorry to say that
he had frequently heard the doctrines of bigotry broached
in that House. He did hope that the enlightenment of the
ige would banish these prejudices, which seemed to have
preserved their last testing-place in this self-extolling
,country.—(Hear. )
Colonel BERESFORD was as anxious as the Hon.
Hember to see bigotry exiled from that House ; but he
would maintain that Church property was sacred and in-
viobble.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that his statement bad been
uroved by the [-lon. Member for the Dublin University,
with reference to Archdeacon Magee. That Rev. Gen-
lemma held four livings—one of which, the Wicklow
Union, contained six parishes, making ten altogether;
.nd in addition had received, just before his father's death,
the golden prebendary of Swords—altogether eleve❑ liv-
ings.—(Hear.) What he had said and repeated, with re
garti to the non-residence of the incumbents in Ireland
was, that, in three of the provinces of Ireland, two-thirds
of the livings were not occupied. In his own parish, for
example, there were 5,000 Catholic inhabitants, while
there were but 20 Protestants; and of these 20, but five
were actual residents, the other 15 being the English
coast-guard. What would be thought of such a state of
things in England?
Mr. J. GRATTAN thought that a portion of the pro-
perty of the Church should be applied to the relief of ti :e
poor, and the repairs of the churches. He confirmed the
statement of the Hon. Member for Kerry, with respect to
'he indecent pluralities enjoyed by the son of the late Arch-

bish, p Magee.
Mr. HUNT wished to know why they should take
awl}, from the Church of Ireland or England any portion
of its property, unless they were at the same time pre-
pared to lessen the spoils which the minion families of
Henry VIII. received at the time of the Reformation, as
the reward of their zeal in promoting it ?
Mr. SHAW said the real fact was, that two or three
Small chapelries were united in the union of Wicklow,
each unable to support a clergyman, and that one of the
sinecures of which Mr. Magee was accused was his arch-
deac,inry in the county of Galway. He maintained that
unless religion were supported by the State, it would not
be sought after by the people.—(Oh, oh.) The question
was, were they or were they not to have a Church establish-
ment in Ireland? It was evidently the object of its op-
ponents to destroy it.
After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN, Mr. NORTH,
Mr. LAMBERT, and Captain GORDON, the petition was
ordered to lie on the table.
TREGONY ELECTION.

Mr. O'CONNELL, in rising to renew the adjourned
debate upon the petition of Mr. Gurney, felt himself
bound, in the first instance, to declare that the petitioner
did not mean to convey any imputation upon the Election
Committee. The first questio❑ was, whether the subject
of the petition was one of petitionary appeal. He bad no
doubt that the sitting Member had a right to levy costs;
but in this case they had been levied upon the individual
who had signed the recognizances, instead of upon both of
the persona who had signed the petition. But the costs
were levied upon the Speaker's warrant, which being final
and conclusive in a court of law, the suffering party could
not proceed against the other petitioner for the amount of
his share of the costs. He wished the case to be referred
to a Select Committee, but at present he should only move
that the petition do lie on the table.
The SPEAKER recapitulated,the case, and stated to the
House that the first point for consideration was, whether
the petition could be received or not. The Committee had
decided that the petition against the return for Tregony
was frivolous and vexatious. The costs had been properly
taxed, he bad granted his certificate as Speaker, and which
by the law was to have the effect of judgment entered up
against the complainant. Only one petitioner instead of
both bad been put into the report, and upon him the costs
had been ;evied. It was not competent for the Speaker
to enter the meri►s of the case, although he might consi-

der the legality of las warrat. The questio❑ was, couhl
the House constitute itself into a court of appeal? The
next point wag, that the House should be informed of the
cii eutnstances which guided the taxers in their decision that
the person who had signed the recognizance was the pet son
liable to the costs.

Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to withdraw the peti-
tion, the statement of the Right lion. Speaker being op-
posed to its ;e~eption.
SUGAIi. REFINERY BILL.

Mr. SURGE—(Lord Althorp having moved the order
of the day for the further consideration of the report of the
Reform 13iI1)—begged leave to know what day the
Noble Lord would fix foe the further consideration of
the report on the Sugar Refinery Bill. The large mi-
nority, or rather the very trifling majority the other
evening on that Bill, evinced the anxiety and neces-
sity of a thorough discussion of its principle and pro-
bable operation, and it was plain such a discussion could
not be eusurgd, if the order of the day be moved af-er
the House had coucknied its labours for the day, that is,
two o'clock in the morning, when lion. Members would
naturally betake themselves to repose; as would be the
case, unless the Noble Lord consented to fix a day apart
for the discussion. Ile bad an amendment to propoze
when the question should come. before the Howe, to the
effect that a Select Committee should inluire into the effect
on the West Indian interests of the proposed plan of home
refining.
Lord ALTHORP could not then fix a day for the dis-
cussion, but would give due notice so as to afford Hon.
Members the opportunity they desired of expressing their
ntuhemnbetortoitfmhooufsellorl.deCristoaLsessa
sentiments on the Bill.
,edr eattu nosl. tvi enrteh
eo rpdaerrieod,
of tOhen
and borough of Appleby.
REFORM BILL.

The Order of the Day wag then read, for the further

consideration of the report of the Committee on the Re-
farm of Parliament (England) Bill.
Clauses 31, 32, 33, and to 44, were read, and, with
.ome merely verbal amendments, agreed to.
Upon that part of clause 45 which directs Justices of
ihe Peace in quarter sessions to divide their respective
counties into convenient districts for polling, and to ap-
point in each district a convenient place for taking the poll
at future elections of Knights of the Shire, in such manner
that no person shall have to travel more than fifteen miles
from the property in respect to which he claims to vote, a
short conversation arose, but the result was, the clause
was allowed to stand, as amended in the Committee.
The other clauses of the Bill were then gone through,
and the several amendments agreed to, and others (chiefly
verbal alterations) added.
Mr. Alderman WOOD proposed a clause making it im-
perative on the clerks of the different Livery Companies
of the city of London to furnish every year to the Town-
clerk, a return of the different Liverymen in each Com-
pany entitled to vote.
Lord ALTHORP agreed that, from the peculiar nature
of the local regulations of the city of London, such a
clause was necessary.
Mr. GOULBURN complained that the wording of this
clause was almost as long as the Bill itself. It introduced
into the city of London a regulation which was nut to
prevail in other parts of the kingdom. In that city the
clerks of the Livery Companies were to make out a list of
tine voters—ill other places, that list was to be made out
by the overseers of the parish in which the voters resided.
The clause was then agreed to.
Colonel SIBTHORPE moved, "that all freeholders,
whose freeholds in the county of the city of Lincoln are
situated on the northern side of the river Witham, shall
vote in future for the representatives o' Parliament for the
division of Lindsey, in the county of Lincoln; and all
freeholders whose freeholds are situated on the southern
side of the aforesaid river Witham, in the said city, in-
cluding the four parishes annexed by charter to the said
county of the city of Lincoln, shall vote in future as free-
holders for the representatives in Parliament for the divi-
sions of Kesteven and Holland; and that the same rights
and powers of exercising the elective franchise, inasmuch
as applies, by the present Bill, to leaseholders and copy-
holders in counties generally, be extended to, and exercised
in future by, the leaseholders and copyholders within the
city and county of the city of Lincoln, with regard to the
proposed respective divisions."
Lord ALTHORP objected to the Hon. Member's pro-
posed mode of dividing the county of Lincoln. He wa
inclined to prefer the division as it stood in the Bill at
present.
After a few words from Mr. CROKEIL, Mr. `FILES, and
Lord J. RUSSELL,

Colonel SIBTI-lORPE withdrew his motion, giving
notice that he would propose it again on the third reading
of the Bill.

Colonel SIBTHORPE moved the introduction of some
words to disqualify all persons holding official civil situa-
tions under the Crown from voting at elections for Mem-
bers of Parliament.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Member's pro-
position ought to form the subject of a separate 13ill. If
it should be brought forward in that shape, he would give

it his best consideration.

Sir C. WETHERELL was surprised, as the Noble
Lord expressed a partiality for separate Bills, that he had
not divided the matter which was stuffed into the Reform
Bill, into 25 separate Bills.
. .

Mr. SFIAW availed himself of this opportunity of de-
nying the correctness of the charges which bad on a for-
mer evening been brought against him and an }lon. Friend
of his, resp.cting their conduct at the Dublin election.
Sir R. VYVYAN expressed his surprise that Ministers
had not introduced into the Bill some provision of the
same nature as that proposed by the Hon. Member.
Lord ALTHORP objected to the amendment.
Mr. CROKER said, that being of opinion that dis-
franchisement was carried too far by the Bill already, he
must oppose the amendment.

Colonel SIBTHORPE then withdrew his amendment.

Mr. CROKER said he would propose two amendments.
merely for the purpose of recording his opposition to the
Bill to the last moment. He would not divide the House,
nor raise any debate upon the occasion. He then moved,
that all the words in the first and second clause, after the
word " that," be omitted ; the effect of which would have
been to render the clauses mere blanks.

The amendments were put and negatived.
Lord ALTHORP moved, that in the 13th clause
(which confers one additional Member on the counties
named therein), the counties of Denbigh and Carmarthen
be inserted.

Lord STORMONT asked on what principle the Noble
Lord was proceeding?
Lord ALT I-lORP'S answer was not audible.
After some observations from Sir George Warreader,
Mr. Croker, Sir C. Wetherell, and Sir J. Owen, the
amendment was agreed to.

Mr. L. KNIGHT complained that a return, which he
had moved for on the 17th of August, of a copy of the
letters-patent under which the Governor of the Isle of
Wight holds that office, was not yet laid upon the table.
It related to a question of considerable importance, namely,
whether there was a Sheriff in the island or not.
Lord ALTHORP said his Hon. Learned Friend, the
Attorney-General, was not then in the House, but he be-
lieved he had ascertained that the Governor was Sheriff of
the island by his patent.
Mr. L. KNIGHT said that if the Governor was the
Sheriff, of which there was no proof before the House, it
was a great constitutional anomaly, that as military officer
he should execute the office of Sheriff.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he had no
means of stating why the return had not been made. As
to the Governor being a military officer, every Sheriff in
England had a military power.
Mr. GOULBURN observed that patents were recorded
in the proper office, and the information might be procured
from thence. They were not bound to send to the Go-
vernor for a copy.
Mr. J. CARTER said that he had been informed that
the Governor of the Isle of Wight was Sheriff by his
patent, and that the duties of the office were performed by
the steward as his deputy, and from whom he had his
informal ion.
Mr. CHOKER observed that his information was mere
hearsay, and he doubted it.
Mr. KNIGHT repeated that it was of great importance
that this information should be before the House ; he had
mentioned it in the Committee twice, and several times
privately to gentlemen connected with his Majesty's Go-
vernment.
A discussion then took place as to the person whose
province it was to enforce the order, which led to no result.
Lord ALTHORP then moved the omission of the pro-
viso in the 16th clause, " that nothing herein contained
shall take away, or in any manner affect, the right of vot-
ing in the election of a Knight or Knights of the Shire,
at present enjoyed by any person, or which may hereafter
accrue to any person according to the laws now in force,
in respect to any freehold property, rent charges, annui-
ties, or any other right of voting now by law enjoyed in
relation to the election of a Knight or Knights of the
Shire." The reason of the omission, (as we understood)
was, that the words were unnecessary. They were ac-
cordingly expunged.
Lord ALTHORP then moved a verbal amendment in
the 33d clause, which was agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had an amendment to pro-
pose in clause 42. As that clause at present stood, it gave
an Election Committee the poorer to alter the poll, and to
direct that the return should be amended, but it did not
give the Committee the power of altering the register. He
would therefore propose to insert the words " and may
direct the register to be amended."
After a protracted conversation, the purport of which it
was impossible to catch, the amendment was agreed to.
Lord ALTHORP moved that the proviso at the end of
clause 44 be struck out. The proviso was, " that nothing
in this Act contained shall prevent any Sheriff or other re-
turning officer, or their lawful deputies, from closing the
poll previous to the expiration of the time fixed by this
Act, in any case where the same might have been lawfully
closed before the passing of the Act." The Noble Lord
said, that this proviso was unnecessary here, because the
proviso at the end of clause 48 was to the same effect.
After a few words from Mr. BARING, Mr. WY NN, and
Lord J. RUSSELL, respecting the time allowed for elections
under the Bill, the motion of Lord Althorp was agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that in clause 49 the words
" public notice in writing" be substituted for the words
" public notice."—Agreed to.
The next was clause 50 : on its being read,

Lord ALTIIORP said, that acting upon the suggestion
of an lion. Relative of his, he would propose the introduc-
tion of a provision into this clause to enable returning
officers to hire houses for the purpose of taking the poll
instead of erecting booths, if they should 20 think fit, such
houses to be liable to all the regulations which applied to
booths under similar circumstances. Au amendment to
that effect was accordingly intruduccd into the clause,
which was then put and agreed to,
There being no other amendments in the clauses, the
House proceeded to schedule A, and
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to bring forward the amend-
ment of which he had given notice, for transferring the
borough of Aldborough from schedule B to schedule A,
and thereYy depriving it altogether of the right of returning

a Member to Parlament. He should not, he said, persist
in this motion if he for asmoment thought that it was o
posed to the principle of this schedule, which had attracte
more of the public admiration than any other part of the
Bill, or if he did not consider that such amendment was
in strict conformity with the general principle of the Bill.
As a Reformer he could not permit such a blemish on the
representation of the country as this Aldborough was, to
exist, but he would endeavour, if he could, to remove it.
In the first Reform Bill which had been introduced by Mi-
nisters, Aldborough stood at the head of schedule A. It
was afterwards, however, transferred to schedule B, but
upon what representation, or rather misrepresentation, his
Majesty's Ministers had been induced to take such a step,
be could ❑ot say. He should, at all events, like to know
who the physician was by whom such a miraculous
change had been effected in old Aldborough's constitution.
(A laugh.) The population of Boroughbridge, which
joined Aldborough, amounted to 900; that of Aldborougb
itself to 400 ; making a total population of men, women,
and children of 1,100. The other places which were in-
cluded in order to raise the populaticn of Aldborough be-
yond the line 2,000 had no connexion at all with that in-
significant borough. It was true that Boroughbridge was
a tolerable decent place. It could boast of a good inn, a
coal-yard, a timber-yard, and a resident apothecary.—
(A laugh.) It was also a market-town, and there was a
fair, too, held there, which was famous for the riotous and
drunken scenes enacted at it—principally caused, be must
say, by the Scotchmen who came there.—(Much laugh-
ter.) If the constitw•nts in Boroughbridge and Aldbo-
rough were entitled to retain the franchise, why
not incorporate them with Ripon ? or he would
say, let them give this Aldborough Member to
Doncaster, by which means they would not deprive the
county of York of a Member. Boroughbridge and Aldbo-
borough had been too long a disgrace to the representative
system of this country ; and why, he would ask, should
one of them be still retained? Was it to be left like cer-
tain houses of ill-fame in Vienna, which were allowed to
remain standing, while houses of a similar description i❑
the subu►bs of that city were pulled down ? He would
call on the enemies of the present nomination systeal to
support this amendment. He hoped that, in justice to
Gatton and Old Sarum, they would extinguish this Ald-
borough, the prototype of insignificance and corruption.
The Hon. Member concluded by proposing his amendment.
Sir W. INGILBY seconded the motion, and, in doing
so, expressed a hope that Aldborough would be deprived of
a right to which it was not at all entitled.
Lord J. RUSSELL would put this case simply on these
grounds. His Majesty's Ministers had, in framing this
schedule, adopted a well known rule, and as that rule ex-
cluded from this scheduie all boroughs which had more
than 2,000 inhabitants, this borough obtained the benefit
of that exception. It was true that Aldborough in the
first instance stood in this schedule, but it having been
subsequently represented to Ministers that by adding the
borough and the pat ish together, the population would
amount to more than 2,000, and they having found, on
consulting the population returns, that that representation
was correct, Aldborough was excluded front schedule A,
and transferred to schedule B. Beyond that statement
he had little to say why Aldborough should not be in•
eluded in this schedule. He did not think that his Hon.
Friend had made a sufficiently precise or accurate state-
ment, such as would warrant the House in corning to the
conclusion that in this borough, in the parish, and in the
immediate neighbourhood, there was not a sufficient
number of 101. householders to entitle it to send one
Member to Parliament. Wishing to preserve as nearly as
possible the principle of the Bill as originally brought for-
ward, and thinking it better that they should avoid depart-
ing from that rule which had been laid down and acted
upon in making out these schedules, he should feel it his
duty to oppose the amendment proposed by his Hon. Friend.
Mr. CLINTON said, that the electors of Aldborough
lad never considered it a boon to be removed front schedule
A to B, and they were not unwilling to be removed to
schedule A ; but as their present position was consistent
with the general principles of the Bill, he should oppose
the motion.

Lord MORPETH maintained that the present position
of Aldborough was strictly in accordance with the prin-
ciples of the Bill. He was of opinion that other places in
Yorkshire would be better in schedule B than this bo-
rough ; but as all such points had been discussed in the
very long progress of the Bill through the Committee, he did
net think the House ought to travel again over such cases.
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that the Duke of New-
castle had never solicited for his borough of Aldborough to
be transferred from schedule Ato schedule B. Although
he should vote with Ministers on this occasion, his asso-
ciation with such a bad, blundering, mischievous, delusive,
company, would be but for a moment, and to this mo-
mentary association be was driven by a hard necessity.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. H. BULWER supported the motion.
Mr. CROKER said, he could not vote with the Hon.
31,mber, as he could never consent to the disfranchisement
of any borough. Neither could he vote against him, for
that would have the effect of placing it in schedule B. He
was not disposed to place it in either schedule.
After a few words from Sir J. JOHNSTONE, Sir G.
WARRENDER, and Mr. FANE,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 149
Against it
Majority for Ministers
The Marquis of CHANDOS moved that the borough of
Evesham be transferred from schedule B to schedule A.
After some conversation, however, the Noble Marquis,
upon the suggestion of Sir C. WETHERELL, withdrew his
motion.

CROKER moved that the borough of Downton
should be expunged from schedule A.
The House then divided, when there appeared__
For the motion
Against it
Majority in favour of Minister. 53
The further consideration of the report having been post-
poned until this day, the other Orders of the Day were
disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past
Two o'clock.