The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-16 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1.F36

------- '---- ---
..a,: .. ,
Ily for a lt,',untt iri the II ouse of Lords.
form, but more especially . i
lie agreed with t.:cm 0 their opinion,
—(
-
-4 Hear, hear.)
form in that House was absolutely necessary, In order to enable
it to move pari passa with that House in the ir march of libhe
e-
rality, humanity,y, and justice.—( Hear, hear. ) No one,
was sure, would defend voting by prnscy, and he was
sure that every one would think the Bishops ought to be
relics/0d from the burden of attending to temporal affairs,—
( Hear, hear.) The sooner, in his opinion, the Government
took up that business in a temperate but firm manner, the
beam' and the more easily would it be settled. The next
question which the petitioners referred to was Municipal
Reform, and he trusted that the Government would speedily
introduce a Bill in order to restore the Bill of last session to
its original state. They next prayed for a reform in the Irish
Church. He was pleased to see a Bill for that purpose pro-
mised, but no mention was made of the appropriation clause.
Sure he was, and he warned the Government, that without such
a clause, the great body of the people of England would be
very much dissatisfied. He traced that Ministers, for their
own sakes, would stand fast to that principle, until it had
become the law of the land. The next question to which the
petitioners referred was Nor Laws for I eland. He was glad
that a Bill on that subject had been promised ; for he was sure
that there never would be peace in that country, until provision
for the poor was made. In his opinion, the law ought to be
based upon the 43d of Elizabeth. He did not mean to say
that it might not be necessary to depart from the provisions of
that law to afford facilities for the transport of labour from one
overburthened place to another, but they ought to stick
as near to it as they possibly could.--( Hear, hear. )
He believed that unless the poor of Ireland were insured the
right of living out of the produce of the soil, the gentry of
Ireland would never be interested in taking care of the labour-
ing classes; so as to insure them justice and protection. He
hoped the Irish poor Would be insured against starvation.
He hoped the House would net think that he required too
much on the part of the Irish poor, when he said that
they plight to be guaranteed a maintenance out of the
produce of the soil.—( Hear.) It was proved that every one of
them produced more than four times as much food as he and his
family required. Under these circumstances, it was right that
the Irish landholder should be compelled to hold out a paternal
hand to the labouring classes. He did not think the whole bur-
den ought to fall on the Irish landholders—the Irish mortgagees
and the holders of family settlements ought to be made to con-
trilute their due shares. He had no doubt that • his Majesty's
Ministers would take the subject into consideration, and, he
that they would be able to pass a Bill for the introduc-
tion of Poor !,aws irate Ireland, so as to give protection to that
unhappy people. an.:.l to give satisfaction to the paople of the
• United Kingdom. .
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD could bear testimony to the, state-
ments made by his Hon. Colleague. Never was good order
and unanimity more observeable than upon the occasion
when this petition was agreed to. There wore three points
which the petition embraced, but he would only call attention
to one of them. There was only one opinion as to the nenes?
sity of Irish Corporate Reform, reform of the Irish Church,
and as to the necessity of poor laws for Ireland ; but there
was a difference of opinion with regard to a reform of the
House of Lords. It was the desire of many of the people of
Birmingham not to interfere with the privileges of the House
of Lords, so long as they did not obstruct the progress of
improvement.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. DUGDALE—The Hon. Member for Birmingham bad
asked permission to present a petition of a very considerable
bulk, and, as appeared from his speech, of very considerable
importance. But he (Mr. D.) had every reason to believe
that when the merits of that petition were duly explained, it
would notbe considered of so much importance and considera-
tion. The principal prayer of the petition embodied an organic
change in the Lords,lby which was meant nothing more nor
less than the utter destruction and annihilation of the rights and
independence of that House.—( Loud cheers from the op-
position.) That object may be desirable in the eyes of
the Honourable Member for Birmingham—( Hear, hear)—
and in the eyes of a few persons in Birmingham, and
he had no hesitation in saying that the great majority .of the
people of Birmingham repudiated the sentiments contained in
the petition. At the time of the meeting for considering the
subject of the petition, a number of gentlemen entered into a
protest against the prayer of it, and declaring the persons who
got it up had no right to represent themselves as speaking the opi
nions of the inhabitants of that city. He should read for the
House the protest then agreed upon, and which he then held
in his hand. The Hon. Gentlemen here read the document
of which he spoke. He should remark that it was signed by
2,000 persons, all householders of Birmingham, of full age,
and of the greatest respectability, and of men entertaining dif-
ferent political opinions. He believed the Member for Bir-
mingham would find among them many of his own supporters.
And there were only a few names on the list which had been
placed on it by mistake, and which he had therefore corrected.
It was sip ed by all the borough officers except one, the Low
Bailiff, by all the Magistrates of Warwick acting for and resid-
ing in the borough, with one exception, and he disapproved of the
object of the meeting ; also by twenty-two clergymen—( Loud
laughter)—by sixty attorneys —( Continued laughter)—by
forty physicians—(lncreased laughter)—by two bankers, and
forty merchants. He defied the Member for Birmingham
to say that it was signed by an individual who was not of full
age, and of the greatest respectability. With regard to the
petition, which was said to come from a body calling
itself the Birmingham Political Union—( Hear)—it was
well known to every Member of that House that it had bled to
death a long time ago—(Laughter)—and it would be out of
the power of the Member for Birmingham with all his elo-
quence, ingenuity, and ability to bring it back to existence. In
the first place it was, therefore, the petition of a dead body.—
(Laughter.)—lt was said to be signed by 2,000 individuals
who would, if they were bona fide and living persons, and of
sound mind—( Great laughter)—be entitled to the considera-
tion of that House. He (Mr. Dugdale) believed that they
were a part of that mighty host, consisting of 20,000 brave and
upright men, whin the Member for Birmingham not long ago
informed the House, were ready to march under his banners,
and against whom the few pitiful Tories that might be
found in the country could do nothing.—(Hear, hear.)
He had received information from a friend at Birmingham as
to the manner in which the signatures were obtained, who
was ready, if the House wished it, to prove at the Bar what
he had stated was the truth. He had been informed this pe-
tition was sent to a vast number of pot-houses of the lowest
description in Birmingham, and persons were sent also to
guard it of the lowest character. People had been sta-
tioned with it for a fortnight, in all the public
streets and thoroughfares in the town. Those persons were
seen in the open street to sign name after name to the peti-
tion, without the authority or presence of any one.—(lm-
mense laughter.) It was also signed by children of the
youngest age.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.)
His informant bad stated that he saw tables stationed in the
streets, surrounded by children of eight, ten, and twelve years
of age, and one of them who could write was writing
the names of the rest. Many of them were ill spelt.—( Hear.)
alany sheets were covered with marks, purporting to be the
marks of several persons. He would not trouble the House
any more-4 Hear, hear)—for he was aware that something of
great consequence was coming forward, and lie would leave it
to the House to say wi.ich they,considered of most consequence,
the protest he held in his hand, or the bulky petition that had
been laid upon the table.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said that was just the question.
There; were' two thousand signatures on the one hand—the
rabble, if the Hon. Member pleased—a familiar name for Eng-
lishmen at present..( Groans from the Conservatives, and cheers
from the Ministerial Benches.) On the ether hand, there was
the protest of the Hon. Member, amongst which he had the
candour to admit there were sonic mistakes, which the Hon.
Member scratched out.—( hear, hear.) This petition was
signed by 20,000 persons, according to the Hon. Member,
and nobody being present—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—that
mistake came not from potato- shire.—( Continued laughter: )
The people ought not to be treated by anybody with ri-
dicule, such as the Hon. Member had employed.( Hear,
hear.) Perhaps they asked for what was unreasonable—
a change in the House of Lords. But Englishmen had a
right to ask for any organic change which they thought neces-
sary for their liberty. They had a right to send any petition
to the House, provided they spoke in respectful language.—
( Hear.) The Hon. Member opposite was entitled to re-
tain his opinion, and the men of Birmingham were• entitled
to retain their opinion, but he felt himself bound, to say,
having received high honour—( Laughter from the Tories,
followed by loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—he
would be sorry to shrink from saying that he saw
among them many thousand persons at that meeting, in-
dividuals who certainly appeared to him—he meant no
disparagement to the Hon. Member opposite—quite as re-
spectable as the lion. Member. They appeared to him to be
intelligent, and he was certain they were discriminating,—
(Cheers and laughter.) They could have had no reason
for 'joining in sentiment with him than that of believing
that they had a community of feeling with respect to the
necessity of increasing the guarantees of British liberty.
There was a voice then amongst them which represented that
feeling, and he did not know that his Hon. Friend the Member
for Birmingham was inferior to the Hon, Gentleman opposite,_
either in talent, eloquence, or devotion to the liberties of
. his country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had
greatly contributed to carry the great measure of Reform,
but the people of Birmingham had done more, He firmly
believed, but for the manly, firm, but peaceable demonstra-
tion made by the Birmingham Union, they would now be sit-
ting in a rotten borough Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) Ought
not this petition, therefore, to be treated with respect ? Would
any Tory clique presurne.to treat it with disrespect ?—( Hear.)
Mr. SCA KLETT said it; bad been the habit of certain
persons who had no other employment, to endeavour upon
all occasions to persuade the people that organic changes
were necessary. He trusted that the petitions of the people
would ever be treated with respect by that House.—( Hear,
bear, hear.) But lie put it to the House whether pe
tition of the nature which they had heard, ought not
to be discouraged—( No, no.) When the Reform question
was under discussion the people were told that the measure
could only be obtained by process of law. But in the present
instance it must be apparent that the object was to ob-
tain it by violence—(Oh f oh! from the Ministerial benches. )
wWoausld
it, he asked,
sanction to be en
any
expected e t
which
e the ew HouseQhld or
annihilate Lo r
their own authority ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) I.*flo reasonabdles
man could expect it.
this organic change wasnetowbase teliffeereetfeodreeaxteeapltoshsytovikenleonweeh.ol
(Oh, oh.) In his opinion the pHeetitiwoenulwas treasonable.—
(
.2nguish
h ew
Hon. Repeated
Memberscries of " Oh,ul o
distinguish
could
debeee gthlaed
etorhnkenoewf
seeking a change in the Monarchy and in the House of Lords.
—(Laughter.) For his part he could not understand the
distinction, and he thought it was the bounden duty of the
House to discourage such petition.
REGIUM DONUM.

An Hon. MSMBER begged to ask whether it was the_ in-

tention of Government to increase the Regium Donum in
Ireland ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un-
derstood to reply to the Hon. Memeer's question in the
negative. 1 _

CARLOW ELECTION.

At half-past five the SPEAKEit called upon
Mr. HARDY, who begged to move that the Clerk would
read that part of the Standing Orders of the House relative to
the election of Members to serve in Parliament:
The reading of the Order occasioned some laughter on the
. .

Ministerial side of the House.
Mr. HARDY then rose—Whether the risibility of Hon.
Members has been excited by the reading of thin Order I care
not ; but this I am convinced of, that the case which I have to
lay before this House for its consideration comes within, if not
the words, the very principle of that Oilier. And, Sir
it is a great relief to my mind that this matter comes before
the House at e time, and under circumstances fixed upon by
the Hon. and Learned Member himself, who is most interested
in this result. Sir, I am rejoiced at that becalm, I did fear
that the Hon. and Learned Member might have sustained some
inconvenience in consequence of an omission on my part in
not communicating to him the petition which I had
to present, but which I have since learned was in his bands,
or at least a part of it, before it was in mine—(Tremendous
cheering from the Tory bonches.) Sir, there was one cir-
cumstance which I thought might have created some inconve-
nience to the Hon. and Learned Member, and that was the
hour at which the discussion in this case might be likely to
come on, in consequence of my notice standing 9th on the
paper for this evening. Accordingly, as soon as I had satisfied
myself, which was not till late. on Wednesday night, that I
had a perfect right to bring it forward in precedence as a
breach of privilege. I wrote early on the following morning
to the Hon. and Learned Member to acquaidt him I did mean
to claim that precedence, and I shall read that note to the
House.—( Hear, and much laughter.) " Mr. Hardy presents
his compliments to Mr. O'Connell, and begs leave to
to inform him that it is his intention to claim precedence for
his motion of this evening, respecting the Carlow Election, as
involving a breach of privilege.-7, Portland-place, Feb. 11. "
—( Roars of laughter.) The answer to that was, that the Hon.
and Learned Member was not up—( Renewed laughter)—and
would not be for an hour ; but in the course of the morning
I received the following answer :—" If any act of Mr. Hardy
could create surprise in the mind of any impartial person, it
would be that, after having neglected all the ordinary courte-
sies between Members, he should have had the almost incom-
prehensible presumption.—(Roars of laughter)—to address
his first communication to Mr. O'Connell, who, bow-
_

ever, cannot but feel flattered 'that Mr. Hardy should
send him his compliments."-=-(Tremendous roars of laughter. )
Sir, I trust, if I am to judge at all by the confidence the Hon.
and Learned Member has displayed, that it will afford him sa-
tisfaction that I have sent my compliments.---( Great laughter. )
Sir, I trust that this evening objections which were made at
the first night will not be repeated, namely, that
it was a mock solemnity—(" Hear," and loud cheers)—a
designation which was given by the Honourable and Learned
himself not with perfect consistency, I think, because he
thought it a case for inquiry ; and how a case of mock solem-
nity should occupy the attedtion of the House ; if it was fairly
a case for inquiry, how it could be a mock solemnity the Hon.
and Learned Member must explain.—( Great cheering.) If
it was a case of mock solemnity, something had passed since
Thursday which had taken that title from it: Steps had been
taken by two Honourable Members, which had given
to this question a solemnity that it never had before.—
(Cheers) I have had an opportunity of conversing
with the Hon. Member for. Ipswich, who at that time treated
this question very lightly, and who stated to show what his
feelings were upon the subject, that it was his intention to
move for an account of all the transactions and agreements
between all the Members of the House.--(Great laughter.)
Whether upon secoud consideration he found that such an in-
quiry would not suit all purposes I know not,—(Great
laughter,)—but, from considering it a caae of no importance,
it became in his estimation of such magnitude and interest,
that he moved for hearing it at the bar of the Houie—( Cheers. )
Another Hon. Member had presented a most extraordinary
petition, which I have only seen in the votes of the House, and
which petition appears to me to proceed upon grounds the
most extraneous with respect to this matter—( Great cheer-
ing)—it is presented in the name of a gentleman named Vigors,
who complains of imputations against himself in the two pe-
titions on the table of the House. The petition from Bath
never mention his name—(Great cheering)—and in the one
from Carlow it is merely mentioned in two places—(Great
laughter from the Ministerial side of the House) and
yet the petition is presented by the Honourable Member for
Liscard, complaining of illegal, unconstitutional, and corrupt
conduct on the part of the petitioners. Sir, I don't know any-
thing in either of those petitions that complained of anything
like illegal, unconstitutional, or corrupt conduct on the part of
that gentleman.—(Loud cheers.) It appears that my mo-
tion will be attended with some good effect ; for unless my
motion had been made, and this enquiry called for, 249
families and 316 widows, and orphans—( Great laughter)__
would never have had their wants brought before the House.
—( Great laughter, and cries of " hear, hear," from Mr.
O'Connell.) The Hon. and Learned Member calls, " Hear,
hear." I ask him where he was when it is stated
that within the last few years circumstances alluded to in
that petition took place.--( Great cheering from the opposition. )
Why is it that the circumstances of these poor families, and
the orphans and widows, is so connected with this case ? Why
is it that they have only now come out, when it is stated in
this petition that they have been persecuted for years ?
(Cheers.) Sir, having got rid of these preliminary observa-
tions, which I have no plasure in making, I will now pro-
ceed to lay the case which I have to do before the House ;
and I assure you, Sir, that it lays in a very narrow compase.
It appears, Sir, that on the 27th of May a Committee which
was then sitting upon a petition against the election for
the county of Carlow declared the election of Vigors and
Raphael void. On the 28th May—only the very next day,
and of course before the people of Carlow could be consulted
on the matter, the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin
called upon Mr. Raphael, and asked him to be a candidate for
Carlow, at the same telling him that the expense would not
exceed 2,0001. On the 20th of May, only two days after the
seats were declared void, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
again called upon Mr. Raphael, and not seeing him wrote him
as follows :

g, My dear Sir,—lrem"a9ineCd laatrhgoems -es
,t raete t
someM
until after the hour I mentioned. I was sorry I did not re-
main longer, as you called shortly after ; but as you left no
letter or other indication of acceding to my proposal, I take
for granted that you decline my offer—be it so. I only add
ay 2
inconvenience,
1 8
my belief that you will never again meet so safe a speculation,
I am quite sure I never shall hear of one.
" I have the honour to be, my dear Sir,
Your very faithful,
" DANIEL O'CONNELL.

" Alexander Raphael, Esq."
Sir, that reminds me of what was quaintly said by one of our
poets—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter)—of what was
said by one of our early poets, " The things for sale, calls forth
the sellers praise"—(Laughter)—and certainly, if it had been
wanted to puff one of the seats for Carlow, nothing could have
been better than the expression used by the Honourable and
Learned Member, when he assures his Friend that it
is so safe a speculation—(Laughter)—and that it would be
some time before he might have another so safe to offer.
It would seem, Sir, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was very anxious that Carlow should have so distinguished a
Representative from his earnestness in the cause. In conse-
quence of that note a meeting took place on the Ist of June at
which a note was written and delivered to Mr. Raphael.
" 9, Clarges-street, June 1, 1835.
s' My dear Sir,—You having acceded to the terms proposed
to you for the election of the county of Carlow—viz., you arc
to pay before nomination I,oool.2—say 1,0001., and a like sum
after being returned—the first to be paid absolutely and en-
tirely for being nominated, the second to be paid only in the
event of your having been returned, I hereby undertake to
guarantee and save you harmless from any and every other
expense whatsoever, whbther, of agents, carriages, counsel,
petition against the return, or of any other description, and 1
make this guarantee in the fullest sense of the honourable
engagement that you should not possibly be required to pay
one shilling more in any event, or upon any contingency what-
soever. " I- am, my doir Sir, your very faithful, •
" A. Uaphael, Esq." "DANIEL O'CONNELL.'
A ba7gain vias thus entered into between the Hun. and
Learned Member for Dublin and Mr. Raphael, and I ask his
Majesty's Attorney-General to state, if he will favour us,
whether he ever witnessed a. more complete bargain and sale.
—(Cries of " Oh," and great cheering.) What was the
subject matter of it ? A seat in Parliament.—(Hear,
hoar, hear.) If it had been a bargain for a horse
nobody ear. doubt that it would be enforceable in a Court of
law, but it ir, not enforceable in a Court of law because it
would be known it was 4 bargain for a seat in Parliament.
( Loud cheers from the Opposition,) Will any man tell me
that Mr, liaphael would have sat as eapresentative of Carlow
if it had not been for the 2,0001. ?—(Cheers.) Will any man
tell me that W, Rephae.l would have been recommended by the
Learned and Hon. Member for Dublin, if it had not been for
the 2,0001. —( Renewed cheering from the Tories.) What more
is wanted fora bargain?—( Laughter and cheers.) If it is neces-
sary to show to what money the Hon. and Learned Member for
emnr.ote
Raphaelthat was
subsequently, written
the IMO/. [The Hon. and Learned
Dublin attached so much importance, I beg the attention of the
sHicieumsehetrooth
aalmsideNow as the bargain
ir4eadr9L utter a the 4th of June. The Hon.
somewhat shortsighted,
Member read ‘, promises" for "prospects,"
, 1'
1 asntedlrithis note was written on the
andaMemberand
d overLe a
hr
ena
rge
eda
pHroosnp. ects,thereforo,
(ww
Greatlsi cmh ae
dixaecui
ogt enhdttehsroe
from
rat laughter:
otfb joumnei
4th, Jt could not have been Mr. itapbWel'S prospects that thectawrneerde
soAl e
m bright.b e
Member
had
notTh ea r
rr
iewcao4m;e
Carlowndati recommendation
dof tli
whosee
they were, I cannot divine.—( Lei ,(1 cheers from the Opposition. )
The llon. Gentleman here referred to the letter of the Bth of
June, and contiueed—Now, Sir, this is the bargain of which I
complain.—( Hear, from Mr, O'Connell. ) And when I
began the case, as I thought f goat entitled to do the other
evening, 1 win palled to order, because, as you said, the only
the pocket of f cli4 not draw the
question before the Chair wee, *petition should be on the tablp,
iln vfvearsons tea: itnhga thatthat
sheer from
moneytli these e
wentcirs timteota
the Hon:
abd Leer* filentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The House must
have observed what .Is.ellas been made of that admission—and
they must see that, though I am imt a little man--( Hear,
hear)—when I accuse I am considered of great Importance
when I come to acquit.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
But, Sir,
1 va4 going Qn tt state, that, although
in the event of
in the hands of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. yet in
case the one had not been proceeded with, or the other pro:
secuted, a considerablo sum PO We been left unexpended.

There are some men to whom the gratification of their ambi-
tion is a matter of much greater consequence than any
amount of cash ; and if this feeling, so dear to his
heart, were gratified by adding to the number of those
who would be of his party iu this House. e may easily ac-
count for the anaious inquiries after Mr. Hamilton.—( Cheers
from the opposition.) But: Sir, Ithen I recollect that the pe:l
tition bad been abandoned by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, as appears from the statement in the newspapers on the
second or the third day of the sitting of the Committee,
and when I remind this Honourable House that the
county of Carlow i 3 a small one, with scarce as many voters
as there are in the borough which I represent, I must believe
that the contest could not be expensive. And, I ask, • what
would have been the case if there had been no contest or peti-
tion—seeing that there was paid 1,0001. for the nomination
alone. That nomination, according to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, was to be followed, not by an easy victory, but by
a shadow of a contest. We must recollect the difference be-
tween the cost of nomination, and the 1.0001. received for it.
I find it is part of the bargain that he shall not be called upon
for one shilling mere ; but I do not find that it is part of the
bargain he shall have any returned.--( Hear, hear.) These
are the circumstances of the case. They lie in a very narrow
compass, and I have seen no defence of them, except in a
public paper ; and certainly it would seem that, in the Editor's
estimation the Hon. and Learned Member stands high, and
also in the petition that was presented last night, it is stated
that nothing is more common than an arrangement of that
kind—indeed it is stated that what has happened—" that the
money transactions alluded to in the said petitions were, as
your petitioner avers, and is advised strictly legal, consttutional
and honourable ; that the great majority of your Honourable
House is accustomed to make similar money arrengements—
(Hear, hear)--" in respect to their scats in the Commons'
Honse of Parliament. And, Sir, it is stated in the paper to
which I have 'alluded, that nothing is more common than that
one candidate should pay all the expense, and that in this
instance. Mr. Vignrs had reputation and popularity, in the
benefit of which ?.Ir. Raphael was to participate. Has an
Iron. Member, who offers himself to his constituents, any
right to sell his reputation? Can he go to a friend and say,
you pay the expenses and I will give you half my popularity,
and half my reputation ?---( Hear.) I cannot understand that
any such bargain is legal. If it be, this will be the first time
I have ever beard of it, and I cannot vnderstand that any per-
son who calls himself an agent in such a bargain, especially
if that agent be a Member of this Honourable House, can
attempt to support any bargain of that description—(Cries
of " Hear, bear.") I cannot call the Honourable 'and Learn-
ed Gentleman an agent--I wonder that he etnideseends to
call 'himself an agent—because I never heard of an agent who
undertook to be responsible—" I hereby undertake to
guarantee and save you harmless from any and every other
expense whatsoever, whether of agents, carriages,, counsel,
petition against the return, or of any other descrip-
tion."—l do riot know how a person who enters
into such a bargain can be called an agent—( Hear)—
I should rather think that Mr. Vigors, the petitioner of last
night, was the agent of the Hon. and Learned Member at
Carlow, rather than that the Hon. and Learned Member was
the agent of Mr. Vigors in London.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The consequence is, that the Hon. and Learned Member no-
minates and puts in both Members for the county of Carlow.
Mr. Vigors, his personal friend, and Mrs Raphael, his friend,
as contractor. It is very little consequence what sort of a re-
presentatives the people of Carlow are to get. They never
saw his face—they never saw anything of him but his Address,
though of this nothing belonged to him but his name.
—(Hear, and laughter.) If a man happens to possess
moral influence, he has no right to dispose of it for money
A writ had been lately issued for a certain place, in conse-
quence of a Noble Lord's elevation to the other House, what
would be thought, I ask, of a Noble Lord, who has
great influence in this place, if he made such a bargain.
if he made such a bargain as this. There are many consti-
tuences in this country who would be glad to receive the
recommendation of an Honourable Baronet of great in-
fluence ; but what I put to the House, if that Honourable
Baronet said to a candidate, " I have great influence
in this borough or country, and I will ensure your return if
you give me 1,000/. now, and another 1,000/. after your
return.—( Hear, hear.) If such a thing as this had taken
place, and if it had transpired, what would be thought of it
by the supporters of the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman would not .his conduct form the subject of their
strongest animadversion, and would not the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman himself discharge some of those
arrows at him which he is in the habit of flinging at
every leading Member who differs from him. The question
is, what was to be done with this money ?—what was to pre-
vent the Hon. and Learned Gentleman from applying
it as he thought proeer ?—what was to prevent him putting
it into his own pocket for his own personal aggrandizement ?
It appears therefore hardly necessary that I should enter
upon the circumstances subsequently stated, and which had
been in the hands of every Hon. Member of this House. Was
there no Irish patriot who would stand forward to fight the battles
of the people of Carlow, and spend two thousand pounds in
legal expenses to vindicate their rights, and to do justice to
Ireland."—( Laughter and cheers.) It appears that there was
a Gentleman who did make enquiries, a Gentleman whose
manly and straightforward conduct I have often admired in
this House—l mean Mr. Feargus O'Connor.—( Cheers. ) He
had inquired after it, for one passage runs thus—" It is not my
fault that Mr. Fergus O'Conner called upon you—refer him
and every body else to me—( Great laughter and cheering)—
! want part of the I.OOOE to send over."—(Laup:liter.)—And,
on the same day the Hon. and Learned Member wrote the
following note to Mr. Hamilton :
" Sir—l beg you will hand my son, Mr. John O'Connell, the
1,000/. placed with you by Mr. Raphael for my use. My son
will give you a voucher for it.
" I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient Servant,
" DANIEL O'CONNELL."
It was on these grounds that I made the observations
relative to the Hon. Member for Youghal, as it appeared to
me that he should have known, before he went for the money,
to what purpose it was to be applied. But if this inquiry goes
on, it will be for the Committee to inquire into all the
circumstances.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.)
I do'nt know that it is necessary for me to make any further
observations with respect. to the transaction. I have laid them
before the House, as I felt it my duty to do, and if the Hon.
Member can get rid of them either by argument or evidence
no man will rejoice more at than myself, and the Hon. and
Learned Member ought to feel grateful to me. • I shall only
make one more observation with respect to what fell
from the Honourable and Learned Member for Tipperary
on Thursday night.—(Hear, hear.) That Honourable and
Learned Member for a purpose which was but too evident—to
excite the prejudices of Hon. Members on that side the House.
Choose to represent-me, as put forward by the Conservatives.
—(" No.") Sir, I happen to have a gentleman sitting behind
the Treasury Benches at this moment, to whom I mentioned
my intentions two months ago, and if any Hon. Member
around me heard me mention it to him within the last month,
let him come forward and stamp me as a villain—( Cheers.)
The Hon. Member for Tipperary, for the purpose of preju-
dice, puts me forward as a leader of the Conservatives.—
(Loud cheers.) I am not. of the Monboddo Creed of
politics.—( Great laughter.) I know nothing of joints
anatomically or politically ; but I came into this House a free
and independent man, determined to act upon the principles
so beautifully expressed by the Noble Lord opposite, when be
introduced the Reform Bill, that is the ground on which I am
anxious to take my
.stand; and if that be, to be a Conserva-
tive, I openly avow myself one.—( Cheers.) With respect to
bribery and corruption. I call on the Honourable Member
for Tipperary, and his friends on that side, to say if I ever
flinched when they were inquiring into those cases, but
I wish to .be consistent.—( Great cheering.) And I cannot
understand those Gentlemen, who, after havidg hunted ovsr a
small isolated place, lose their scent, and are paralized when
they find a wholesale dealer in the material.--(Great cheers.)
These Gentlemen call themselves Radicals, and mo-
nopolize the name of Liberals.—( Cheering.) Liberals,
indeed 1 I know enough of such Liberals, as to
have nothinf. to do with me who will strain at a gnat and
swallow a camel.—(Loud and long continued cheering.)
,The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then moved that a Select
Committee be, appointed to enquire into the circumstances, at-
tending the traffic and agreement between Daniel O'Connell
mid Alexander Raphael, touching the nomination and return of
Alexamtler• Raphael for the county of Carlow, aud•to report she
minutes'of evidence, with their observations thereori.
Mr. O'CONNELL then rose, and said, Sir, my first obser-
vation is; that the resolution proposed is exceedingly paltry ; it
does not extend the inquiry to the extent which I challenge
and demand. With that observation, Sir, I leave that
part of the case. My next observation applies to the com-
mencement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech. He
prefaced the speech, by saying that I was furnished with a
copy of the Petition before he was. Now, Sir, that is a fact
which I utterly deny.—( Cheers. ) I utterly deny is, and yet
when he stated that as a fact, fact, he aas cheered by four-
fifths of the Gentlemen opposite, thereby showing a
partiality at which I am riot surprised--(Hear, hear)
_for I believe that they have not even hypocrisy enough
to deny that they are willing and anxious to have an oppor-
tunity of condemning me. Sir, when I heard that cheer
it put me in mind of an anecdote which was once
told me by the present Lord Chief Justice Buahe—
after the rebellion of 1798. I had it from his own lips. He was
engaged as counsel for a man named Wexford, who was charged
with murdering a man named James White. The trial came on
after the Act of Amnesty had been passed, which exempted all
eseept those guilty of murder..
(LEFT SPEAKING.)