The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-07 00:00:00

-vas i-xhitited, in connection with the name borne *1

the Noble Lord connected with Nortliamptonshire.±-
(Laughter.) On this flag was displayed, "Spencer
and no Corn Laws." Now, it could not be deeino
any very violent stretch of fancy, or described
in instance of malignant Tory mi-cinstructims, if he
were to say, this was calculated to spread abroad the
opinion that the Noble Lord was not averse to a fr•e
trade in corn. The Noble Lord's nod should not distuili
him, even though it were one of disapprobition. But now
he came to ask, how could inen—county Members—call
themselves the friends of - the landed interest, when they
encouraged such things, and inculcated such doctrines?
which he described as ceit tin to produce collision betwean
those who really represented the agriculturists, and thoie
who represented the manufacturing interests in the :re-
formed Parliament. He next piocecded, amidst mind)
confusion, to observe, that he supposed Hon. Members
would not cry out " name" when he stated, that abolition
of tithes was one of the expectations raised in the consti-
tuency of many places—(Hear, hear, and no)—and h4l
been in fact described as synonymous with Reform. Nor
would it, he presumed, he denied that the new consti-
tuent body bad intimated their intention to apply the sponge
to the national debt.—(No, no, hear, hear, &c.) The
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were peculiarly happy in wit
happening to have been cantiitlates at any of those placei.
—(Cheers and laughter.) They had all been peculiarly
fortunate, and their good fortune was never likely tit.
occur again either to themselves or anybody else.—(Cheers
and laughter.) They were happy in being- returned fer
places in which their constituents made no complaint, mar
called on them for any pled lea, or demanded from them
any promise that they would endeavour to free them froM
their grievances, or respecting any other of those mat-
ters which are not unfrequently discussed betweeh
electors and their representatives.—(Cheering and laugh-
ter.) And yet there were cases in which a difference
in opinion did prevail between the Members and the"'
constituents. The electors in some places said of the
Noble Lord's Reform Bill—it was not made as a final
measure. It was but to create a Provisional Government
until a new Constitution should be substituted.—(Cheeril,
and No, no.) Not in the opinion of the lion. Merriber;
he wishes it to le final, but his friends do not ; he means
it to be eternal, but his constituents mean it merely as a
shift, and a pretence to engraft on it a new and perfect
revolution.—(Local cheers.) But, lie would ask, werii
Gentlemen aware how long the Constitution—how lout
the representative system had lasted ? Were they awarit
that when Louis XVI. adopted the Constitution in France,
he was described as having entered into a blessed union

with his people, and as bring the restorer of the liberties
of France? Were they aware, that in the same way a
in the instance of the King of France, the name of our
King was most unconstitutionally linked with that of tin•
people and the projects of Ministers in the late contests?
—(Cheers, and No, no.) That the name of the Kint
—the Citizen King, as be was sometimes called—n. 4
used at the elec•iona, he declared to be notorious. To re-
sume, however, he asktd if they were aware, that in twi,
}•ear: after Louis had, in 1792, formed this union with

his people, after the attempt to erect the glorious ftbric ef
the new Constitution, he was brought to the guillotine
Were they aware that the march of mind, so great and eb
highly lauded at that period, was outstripped by the marcii
of atheism and irreligion, so that in 1793—in less than
two years after—Christianity was abjured at the bar et
the National Convention ?—(Continued cheers.) The
Hon. Almaher for Knarrshorough said, go en conceding;
but was the Hon. Gentleman aware of what thje
French King, the French Nobles, and the French
Clergy had gained by their concessions? The King con!,
ceded his prerogative, and he perished on the scaffold.
The Nobles conceded their titles, and their privileges, and
their order—the Clergy their dignities and their lands-. 1.
and their reward was exile, proscription, and death.-4.
(Cheers.) Were Hon. Gentlemen aware of this—and
would they, with such results submitted to their view, yet
venture to form a similar body with that which had been
the creator of such evil.—(Cheers.) Who would assert,
that from the change contemplated in the elective body,
the Monarchy would not receive a shock—(Hear, hear)..e.
that the Church of England would be safe—or that ebb
Peerage could continue to exist.—(Hear, hear.) Who
could assert this, when the body who were to send Mem.
hers to that House would send them not to delib.trate, but
as delegates, to c irry into execution the arbitrary man=
dates of an arbitrary and jacobinical constituency.—(Loup
and bine-continued. cheers.) Were they to make a model
of that splendid community, which, after a period of forty
years, has not yet a Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) Were
they, because the machinery of our Constitution was not
such as satisfied the theories of political projectors, to try
a sp, culative experiment—to cast away the so-called fri.
co'ity if ages, and try a new speculative system of repre-
seatatirn, which had peen already tried three times in
France—in the Constitution. of 1791, in that of LouiS
XVIII., and in that of 1831—and yet left that splendid
community in the same state of confusion which had
prevailed for the nearly half century, the forty-five years,
which had passed since it was promulgated.—(Cheers.)
He, at least would never consent to this. He would
miss no opportunity till he was cempelled to submit to that
which no hurnan power on earth should ever compel hint
to submit to.—( A burst of laughter.) The Hon. Gentlemen
had doubtless been engaged with a repast more pleasant
than listening to a discussion on the British Constitutions
They had been pushing about the bottle with the same
freedom as the Hon. Gentleman opposite had been decant 4
ing one borough into another.—( Hear, and laughter.)
Reverting to the subject of the relation ht tween Membera
and electors, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman then ob,
served, that, to uee the words of the Hon. Member for
Knareehorough, never would he submit to the degradatiori
of buying his seat in that House, by a disgraceful sy4tern
of falsehood, deception, and corruption ; and remarked;
that although the Hon. Gentlemen opposite might have
on a late occasion succeeded in getting into Parliament
without wearing handcuffs, it was a piece of good ford
tune which could never by possibility occur to than
again. The honour and dignity of the Housed Counmon4
would he for ever disgraced, vilified, and degraded, if the
present representation should be superseded by time Noble
Lord's mockery of a Constitution.—(Much cheering.)
Captain SPENCER had been no party to the display.:
ing of the theoretical banners or ph:earth alluded to by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down..
He knew nothing of them—(llear)—nor bud he cant
vassed the county in the manner stated by that Learned!
Gentleman.—(Cheers.) Neither had he, on any occasion,i
or in any speech which he delivered, alluded to the nib-,
jects which that Hun. and Learned Gentlemen men-i
tinned.—(Cheers.) •
Sir C. WETHERELL rese to explain ; but amidst the,
calls for Sir R Peel on one side, tied for Mr. Brougham,
on the other, his obset vations were not heard.
An Hoer. MEMBER. said, that the placards or banners,;
such as had been described by the Hon. and Learned;
Gentleman (Sir C. Wetherell), had been carried intoi
Oxfordshire, from the neighbouring county of Worcester ;
and that they had upon them the words " Spencer, and!
no Corn Laws."---(Hear.)
The Hon. Mr. FOLEY, when he canvassed the county,
of Worcester during the late election, bad never been a
party to the publishing, nor had he ever seen a placard
with such an inscription as " Spencer, and no Corn Laws."
Rut he had seen placards and banners coming from the
other side and bearing the inscription of "No Popery," and
in other respects calculated to produce excileteenr.—
( Cheers.) He acknowledged that there was, indeed, ~
strong feeling throughout that county during the contest.
But it was the feeling of the people in favour of Reform—
(Cheers)—and it was such, that wherever he presen'esl
himself as the advocate of Reform, be was drawn from
towekto town by the people in the manner of a triumph.
Mr. W. BROUGHAM rose amidst calls for Sir R. Peel
and cries of " hear, hear ! and " go on ;" and when he could
he heard, was saying that he did not regret that the state-
menu; respecting the banners alluded to hail been made, as
it gave the Hun. Members for Worcestershire an oppor.
trinity of refuting the itnpotations which had been irt,t
upon theta.—(Hear, bear.) Fer his part, considering
that there were a vast number of Hon. Members desirous
to speak, and still more who.wtre desirous to divide upon

hey.:esedt crtieiltion; he sliould not 61,:e troubled the Muse

vitl; any rern-arks; but that a 4 he had been sent to that

goose by so numerous a constitneacy, to be the organ
t',ir the expression, of their wishes 00 this question, in
tompliance with the requisition of his Mitie.ty. he should
.ot Vel justified in giving a Silent vote.—(flear, Lear.)
With reep •ct to the statements of the Hon. and Lesined
Gentleman opposite, Who had delivered his address with
:o much energy and vehemence, that he (Mr. Brougham)
bought his Learned Friend might better have chosen one
f the Cooler months, sty Fructidor or Nivose, than to
lave exerted himself in Thermidor, he (Mr. B.) would
,nly siy that he had been returned by a very large Con-
.titueney, and he could lay his band upon his he:irt and
that he for one had never held out such hopes to'the
morest of his constituents, as that the Reform Bill would
Live them tea for a shilling a
pound.—( Hear, hear.) He
gad a right, therefore, to assume that other genttemen
qually hinouralde with himself had not reaorted to the
irts which had been attributed to them, and which they
otd denied—(Hear)—but that they Kati obtained the
cotes of their constituents by arguments such as he hinpeif
sad used. As to the complaint respectinz the recognition
f the Birmingham Political Union, the lion. and Lsarned
Gentleman must remember that thu House hay! itself sre-
eeived petitions from Political Associations; The petition
of the Deputation from the Manchester Union bad been
received with the approbation of the Houte‘;—( Hear.)
There was no statute against the reception of petitibrig

from those societies, although they were not corporate
_

bodies. But sti.l more, the campla!nt in this instance
was not well founded. The Prime Minister had, in fact,
not written a letter in answer to the Political trnio.n, but

to Air. Attwood, as a private individual. Ile (Mr. B.)
did not know but that the •Hon. and Lelrne Gtotliman
tl!uded to some answer as fabricated as the plarards and

banners in Worcester.—(c' Cheers," and cries of " No,
no.") A petition had also peen received I.y the House,
without objection, from the Sheffield Cernmitte! ; arid, lee
therefOre thought that his Learned Friend's objection to the
recognition of political societies was no better fenetbd
thin his ch urges respecting the improper arts resorted to
by Hon. Gentlemen at tie lite elections.—(lle.tr, bear.)
It n-ae gratifying to observe that the discussion hitherto
had been carried on with so much good humour. Perhaps
they might thank the intervel that -Thad elapsed since the
last Session. If Hon. Gentlemen Lad not kept their uti-
jority, they had at least got back their temper. But some
exceptions there certainly had I een : some if the borough
interest had• become far more bitter than before ; per-
le,ps it was not to be wondered at that thole gen-
tlemen whose boroughs we re included is Sche-
tilliet4 A and B should feel a little sore, and
the Scotch county Members,- as might be expected,
excelled in fury, for few English coreorations were
more snug than the largest Scotch counties. A Right
Hon. and Gallant General, representing one of tin-sc
counties, having no calls of bodic, of constituents for cell-
vaesing, appeared to have devoted his time, since the last
dissolution, to the study of history. net, perhaps, very
successfully, if we might judge from the views he had
fertne I of the character of Oliver Cromwell. He
had discovered that person to he a lawy.-r of many
years standing, a judge in equity, a friend of eduCts-
tion and freedom, and an enemy of every kind of cant
and hypocrisy.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. and
Gallant General had asked, what did the people gain by
the Bill ? He would reply, " all that the beroughmongers
had lost"—all that had been drawn from the resources of
jobbing, favour, influence, abuse, corruption, the people
had gained—all the power of misrule, which a faction
had lop, the country and the King had non ! The
King, emancipated from th it pernicious faction, had
gained a true llt itish throne in the hearts of his people.
The people, no longer bent under a load of ,rbu e,
at length breathed the free air of a pureand good Govern-
ment. He denied that the Ministers had ever eaid that the
Bill would restore the representation to the attic in which
it was at the beginning of the Monarchy. It his been said
indeed, and truly said, that the Bill would establish the
representation on the princlplet, on whch it was in-
tended to be established at the beginning of the Mo-
narchy.—(Clieers.) Now these principles were plain—
'n the m ..t in let times we .had nothirg but land
owners ; and how were the Parliaments cemposed? Of
Birons,who were summoned ratiotte tenurce who held per
Baroniun, and were bound to attend the King to assist
him in council, touching the et-Fairs of tile realm.
TI ea came the. Knights of shires, chosen by all the
representatives, in fact, of the land, for, at this time,
there was no trade or interest separated from land to
he represented. Soma after a mercantile interest
arises, and it becomes necessary to settle the staple ;
for that express purpose (in 27 Edward III.); the
mercantile towns were summoned, rinfl, about the same
time, a summons to twelve sea-ports to send masters of
vessels to advise with the King touching the defence, and
preservation of the realm, and the shipping interest. Can
any man say that the principle here acted upon, was net
that of adapting the representation to the exigencies
and cheurnstances of the times? It had been cone
tended that all boroughs were summoned originally on
account of trade, and because of the increase of their
mercantile importance. This, as a general prin-
ciple, might be pushed too far, because it might be said
that such a town as Boston was not theta summoned,
although its importani.e could not be deni. d. Still this
would he no answer to his position, that the principle ou
which our ancestors acted was that of admitting the different
interests of the country to a share in the legislative as-
sembly. At this distance of time we Iced little to guide us
as matter of strict proof, or historcal evidence, but the cir-
cumstance of the ship masters alone proved the case. Much
had been said to show, that the commercial inter-seat
would not be represented in the Refereed Parliament; but
they who said so overlooked the great portion of the
commercial interest which was iiicluded in the
portent class to which this Bill would give for the first
time a complete representation—be meant the middle
clav—the strength, the prop of the State—the base of
the column upon which alone rests thee:Vete and security
of the Corinthian capital. Follawiag this ancient and
right principle, could we deny to this class, to modern times,
r voice in the choice of the representatives? It had been
objected to this Bill that it would create a republic,
which, by whatever name it might be called, would,
in effect, put an end to the Monarchy —(Hear, hear.)
Now, if abet were the f.ct— if the free expression of
the sentiments of the people in that House would
put an end to the Monarchy, it must be assumed that the
people of this country wish to put an end to it.—(Hear,
hear.) How otherwise could it he said that the full re-
presentation of their sentiments in that House would
lead:to the overthrow of the Monarchy ?—(Bear.) Was
there a period of our history which did not show that the
People were disposed to monarchy? Was it not the fact,
even when :they had before their eyes the example of
Cromwell, of - whim Clarendon admitted, that under
him England was not only triumphant abroad, hut well
governed at home—was it not the fact that, even with
that example before their eyes the people of England re-
ceived -with open fume the son of the former King,
although his character was stained with the most
odious vices ; and that in despite of his profligacy, they
retained him, and they would have retained his successor
but for his Catholicism ; for it was. that, and not
his arbitrary principles that caused his downfall !
Did they not very recently shew their attachment
to Monarchy, when our late revered Princess was
borne to the tomb ? With these examples, the House
had been called upon nut to listen to the voice of the
people, lest it should be said that they were influenced by
fern There was one fear that no wise or honest roan
would hesitre to avow, and that was, the fear of losing
the affections of the people.—(Cheers.) That treasure
they had not long been seeking, and hid at length found.
Let them cherish it as the b-st security against any poli-
tical evils that might beset them ; and by so doing they
would take counsel, not of fear, but of wisdinn.—(Hear,
leas )
Sir G. MURRAY thought that the House would not
think that he asked too much when he requested to be
allowed an opportunity of replying in a few words to the
serious charges brought against him by the Hun. Gentle-
man opposite (Mr. Brougham.) Those charges were not
the less grave because they had been condensed in a few
words. The Hon. Gentleman had charged him (Sir G.
Murray) with having lost his temper. Well, that was an in-
firmity to which any other Hon. Gentleman might be
liable ; but fur his part be did not recollect that he had
ever lost his temper in that House, during the present or
any former discuseion.—(Hear.) If .he had ever fallen
into such infirmity, no man could regret it more than he
would himself.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had also
charged him with ignorance of history. He had always
h4l a very active life, and that might be his excuse if his
knowledge of history was not as accurate as that possessed
by other gentlemen who had bad the advantage over him
or greater leieure. But he really was nut aware that he
had on the preceding night made any historical mistake—
(Cheers, and cries of " No, no")—and perhaps there
might be some room for charging the Hon. Gentleman
himself with ignorance of history when he said that there
had .never been in this country any. indication of a desire
thr a ,republic.—(Cheers, and " No, no.") The lion.
Gentleman's next charge against him was, that he drop
a parallel between -a lawyer (and that, too,
ban Equity
dodge) and the usurper Oliver Cromwell.—.(
esrrostrifte
sate Ministetial ,sine, .araewered, by " No, n f
nor supposed the Groin.
I°Hold Elora ) He tad- never said

• .ho ehottillsl Mee. ciom the convulsion to which at-
. aricasure tnig*.:lead was a lawyer. He believed ratio.
:fiat the usurp loon would be accomplished not by law ho
egaiast law, by the sword and by violence.— (Ch, en.,
--sem No, nee')
S r ROBERT PEEL (who was loudly called for) ws
very imperfectly heard in his first sentences, until he saie
"---As one of the minority, Sir, I am about to state the rea•
ns for which I oppose this Bill, and I trust that the ma-
jority will give me an indulgent hearing. I have no ho
rough to preserve, nor borough-proprietor to oblige by the
opposition. When I am told that I resist the wishes e
the majority of the peoples anti oppose the opinions of tl
majority of this House, I frel that lam entitled to
patient and indulgent hearing whilst I explain why I donut
concur with those wishes and opinions. lam not in
duenced in the course which I pursue by any view to per--
senal advantage, nor by any personal ties.—(Hear, hear.)
1 rise, Sir, deeply impressed with the importance of this
discussion, when I hear the cheers that are raised front
time to time on one side, and the cheers with which the.
are replied to from the other. I cannot but bear in min,
that we are now debating what shall be the future Consti
tutiou of this House. Ido not wish to mix up with the
sliecussion of the question now before the House any con-
sideration of the past conduct of his Majesty's Govern-
ment. Tire lesson has often been inculcated during thi,
debate, that we should rather attend te the question orate
uhing interest properly under consideration, than refer to
the politics of past Governments. lam desirous of actin.
upon that lesson, but I fear that I shall have some difficult,
rm obsetving the rule which I have prescribed to myself, a.
I am strongly tempted to depart from it by the eloquent
speech of an Hon. Gentleman, who last night commenced
his powerful address by an earnest exhortation to this
House to confine the debate to the question beore us, an-
'terminated by a hitter tirade against the late Government.
I rejoice that I was not last night led away by the prove.
cation which that tirade offereel to me ; and I do not not,
think, Sir, that this is an occasion osa which it is fitting
to mix up my personal detenre with the discussion of ties
great question._( Hear.) Whenever the linnourald,
Gentleman may think prnper to support his charge.
against the late Government, by something beyond
leis own mere swertion, that we are enemies o
public freedom, 111- shall be prepared to repel that
charge. I will say, however, that although I have never
dealt in frothy declamations about liberty, neither have
ever, when ally part of the public authority was entrusted
tto me, used that power to place public liberty in a woro
condition than I found it.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman said that we have canted disquiet and disorder it
the country, and contested the late with the present Co-
s-eminent. He said that his Maj. sty's Ministers have
restored peace and tranquillity in every part of the king-
dom.—( Hear, hear.) I wish, Sir, that this statement of
the Hon. Gentleman may be found to he true.—(Hear.)
No man could be more rejoiced at it than I, nor met.
ready than I to congratulate the Government, and to give
them credit for their exertions,. But if, on the contrary,
disorder and excitement should prevail, I will not be the
man to attribute their prevalence to the faults of the Ad-
ministration.—(Hear, hear.) When lam told that lam
the enemy of public liberty, and that disorders prevailed
tender the late Administration—while, by the present,
tranquillity has been preserved by the operation of the
ordinary law—when I enter upon my vindication, I slid
merely bring forward this single arid striking fact, that
since this "day-star of Reform" rose, within a period ot
only six weeks, more lives of the King's subjects hay,
heen lost in conflicts with the military than during the six
preceding years when 1 was Secretary for the Home De-
partment.—(Cheers.) 1 impute not the loss of these live
to the iniscenduct of Government, or of the Police ; hut
I think it hardly fur, while this fact is notorious, for the
present Administration to take credit for the preservation
of perfect tranquillity. New powers even are asked fro
by the Executive Government, and I believe that nom
will be required which are not called for by the necessity
of the case ; hot I believe also that they will he. of re
avail ; and I protest -against the conduct of those who, i
the same breath, congratulate themselves en the rest. ra
lion of peace and harmony, and demand of Parliament
new and extraordinary means of preventing disturbance.
—(Hear.) I only recommend the lion. and Learned
Member for Caine (Macauley), when next he chaunts
hie hymn of victory over the predecessors of the present
Government, to omit the strophe that celebrates tranquil
lity.—(Cheers anti laughter.) Abstracting myself 'froze
all further pens tnal and party allusions, I intend to enu-
merate, as briefly and fairly as I can, the main argument,
used by Ministers and their supporters, and to state t.
what extent I consider them either invalid, or entitled to
weight and consideration. If I recollect rightly, the main,
arguments on which the present measure has been rested
are these :-1. That the time is come when we must
correct the defects in our institutions that have arisen from
time, and, in the terms of the King's Speech, resort to
the acknowledged principles of the Constitution, for the
purpose of correcting those abuses. 2. That the Hour,
of Commons, us at present constituted, dues not answer
practically the purpose for which it was intended—that it
is not a fair and just representation of the people—that it
is in arrear of the intelligence of the age, and that it is
therefore expedient that it should be amended. 3. That
the House of Commons has lost the confidence of tiro
people—that the national voice demands Reform—the
'whether the national voice does or lees not demand it on
rational grounds, that it must be obeyed, and that it is
impossible to carry en the Government of the country
without granting Reform. I shall apply myself as closely
and as logically as I can to each of these three arguments.
One preliminary objection has been taken to any consi-
deration of Reform, in which I cannot entirely concur.—
It has been urged by some that the elective franchise
whether corporate or individual, partakes so much of tit.
nature of property, that it is scarcely within our competence
to legislate regarding it. Whatever the Hon. and Learned
Member for Caine may think, I never contended that the
elective franchise was of the nature of property. When
the cases of Gratopound and of Penrltyn were untie;
consideration, I expressly claimed for Parliament the right
of perfecting the privileges of the minori-y, if the majority
were convicted of an offence which rendered them unfit te
be trusted with them. I, who was a patty to the disfran-
chisement of the 40s. freeholders of Ireland, could hardly
think I was guilty of an act which amounted to a confisca-
tion of property.—(Hear.) Although I see a clear anti
palpable distinction between the individual right of an
Irish 40s. freeholder atep a corporate franchise which has
existed fur centuries, still, if you establish the same over-
ruling necessity, I do not deny the competency of Parlia-
ment to legislate. I also admit, that some years ago I sets
And stated the great difficulty of giving pecurtiery compen•
sation ; and, in the temper of the present times, the diffi-
culty of recognising any such principle would be vastly
increased. While, however, I admit the distinction between
private property and the elective franchise, I must also say,
that, if you forfeit this ancient privilege on any other
ground but urgent necessity, you do pro Junto violet,
the security of private property, and shake the public
confidence.—(Much cheering.) Expediency, therefore,
should induce us to be most cautious in the forfeiture of
the elective franchise. First, by nit doing, you would re-
linquish an immense advantage; and secondly, von would
establish a precedent by which other franchises which an
distinct from property, may he exposed to hazard. What,
let me ask, is the franchise of the Peerage. That, too, is
a public trust for public objects; and if you deal lightly
with corporate franchises which have endured for ages,
for the sake of visionary schemes of speculative improve-
ment, you establish a precedent by which, at nu distal),
period, the franchise of the Peerage, and even the prerogative
of the Crown, may he attacked upon the saute grounds ant;
for the seine reasons.--(Cheers.) Hence I say that w,
should proceed with the utmost caution, and upon unde
viable proof of oven ruling necessity ; and I rejoiced to heat
the lion, and Learned Member for Caine among the fore-
most to contend for the sanctity and inviolability of private
property. 1 only hope, that should any Government here-
after attempt, with the aid of a Reformed Parliament, ti,
impose a tax upon the transfer of property in the publit
fund., that he will remember his pledge of last night, anti
give the plan the most formidable opposition,—(Hear.)
I proceed now to the argument of the Noble Lord (John
ft"e'l), who content:s that we should be obeying the re-
commendation of the Crown and consulting the acknow-
ledged principles of the Constitution by adopting the ex
trnsive dis ranchisement of the present Bill. There is a
material difference between the Noble Lord's argument
upon this occasion, and when he produced his measure in
the last Parliament. He then contended that the small
boroughs existed in violation of the principles of the Con
stitution, but the speech he delivered, when he
moved the.
first reading of his Bill tea days ago, entirely rut tit
ei
ground front under him. He admitted that there were ne
acknowledged principles to which we could resort for
pr ecedent, and that its disfranchising certain boroughs,
we are not returning to the ancient principles of the Ceti-
etitution. if these nomination boroughs are merely
usurpations, I am not surprised at the public excitement
but if they have continued for four or five centuries, I di
not therefore say that they must necessarily continue; but
this I contend, that you have no right to inflame th
public mind by representing them as usurpatio e.—(Loto
cheering.) Let us keep these two branches of the ar-
gument perfectly distinct. It may he expedient to
feit these franchisee, but you have no right to ,
of hat
the
1-he Peerage has made usurpation on the rights
petty,
' and that the small boroughs now rXi,till"ol,'

Pion of the acknowledged principles of the Constitution—
(Hear.) I took down the expressions of the Noble Lord—
the great promoter of this Bill—and, as a Minister of the
Crown, now he has taken oat his diploma—(Laughter)—
is words acquire additional weight and form. [Sir R.
Peel here read a passage upon this point from the last
peech of Lord J. Russell, and then proceeded.] The
Noble Lord admits that for 250 years before the reign of
Henry VI. nothing could be more irregular or unsettled
than the representative part of our Constitution ; but his
second period extended from the reign of Henry VI. to the
end of the line of the Tudors, during which it Ise,a thought
right that there should be some change in the Constitution
.f the House of Commons. Then it was, according to
he admission of the Noble Lr,r}, that many small boroughs,
orincipAy in Cornwall, were enabled to send burgesses to
Parliament ; and of the total number of places now pro-
posed to be disfranchised, no less than 15 were created in
the reigns of the Tudors. It is evident, therefore, that
these small boroughs are not usurpations by the Peers on
the rights of the people, but they did exist at an early
period of our history, and that they have continued ever
since. In confirmation of this position of the Noble Lord
may refer to a very learned writer upon the Constitution
of this country-1 me. n Mr. Hallam, who, like the great
majotity of the literary community, is decidedly opposed
'o the present Bill. Does not all this show that the mode
of conducting public business in this country was, not by
the intervention of three independent checks upon each
other—the King, the Lords, ar.d the Commons ; but
hat at an early period the administration of affairs,
whether rigist or wrong, was carried on by the influ-
ence of the Crown, and by the influence the Peers exercised
n the House of Commons. Do not let any man answer.
that therefore I contend such influence must necessarily
continue. I only state what is the admitted fact, that
'he small boroughs were created for the purpose of forti
f,ing the influence of the Crown and the influence of the
Peerage.—(Herr, hear.) •` Oh (it may be said), but
these plices were anciently much more populous than they
a eat present ;" but does the No le Lord know what ap-
.ears with respect to Gatton on the indisputable authority
of the Harleian end Lansdown tnanuserip•s? Under
Elizabeth, Mr. Copley used to nominate the Members for
Gatton in default of electors ; ar.d in the reign of Elizabeth
Lord Burghley directed the Sheriff to make no return
`root Gatton without instructions from himself, the pro-
prietor of the borough being at that time a minor ; the
instructions were, that the Sheriff• should erase from the
return the name of Mr. Francis Bacon, and insert that of
Mr. Edward Brown.—(Much cheering.) Finding no
Aber precedent for his Bill, the Noble Lord, with rather

wore exultation than became him, resorted to the autho-
rity of Cromwell, noticing, however, the two extraor.
•linary proceedings upon this subject at the !evolution and
i t the reign of George 11. At the revolution it was
ordered that the Lord Warden should not fornicate the

Members for the Cinque Ports, but the election was only
thus left to the constiAreney. The argument founded upon
the decision in the reign of George IL, that elections
should be free, because the military were removed, only
proves bow utterly barren of authorities the Noble Lord
allot !save been, to resort to such instances in his distress.
But the great precedent upon which he r, lied was in the
time of Cromwell, which Reform, it was said, had re-
ceived the sauction of Lord Clarendon. Cromwell re-
formed with a vengeance—(Hear, Lear)—he made the
House of Commons a more popular assembly ; but did
the Noble Lord recollect that at that time, and for several
►ears before, the House of Lords had ceased to exist ? The
House of Commons might then In. a more democratic
assembly ; but this I know, that it C:111 form no precedent
for the present times, when we have a House of Lords
and a limited and tempered .Monarchy.—(Cheers.) All
the panegyrists upon Cromwell give him credit for being
k more cautious Reformer than the Noble Lord. Waller
is one of these, whose lines the Noble Lord could not fail
to remember, even if they had not been quoted by Mr.
13urke, and Cromwell's extreme caution is made a point
of higheulogium—

"-Still as you rose, the State, exalted too,
Feels no disorder when 'tis changed by you;
Changed like the world's great scene, when without noise
The rising sun night's vulgar light destroys."
These lines allude obviously to the temper and caution
which accompanied the new institution. But, said the
Noble Lord, we have the authority of Lord Clarendon in
t'avour of that Reform, forgetting that the Lord Chancellor
was cot then speaking his own opinion, but the general
sentiment as to the change. I advise new 51embers to
distrust nothing more than quotations. When I hear Ba-
con or Burke, or any other great authority cited, I know
in the neat page, if not in the same, a passage might be
found on which a contrary position might be founded, and
I will endeavour to illustrate this point by reference to
Lord Clarendon's own sentiments on Cromwell's Reform.
There were two Parliaments summoned by the Protector
his new ba,d.; the first sat for a few tnolithti, and,
like many reformed Parliaments hereafter, did nothing._.
(Laughter.) Lord Clarendon remarks of it, that it

spent its time in long debates and wrangling discourses."
—([fear.) Cromwell dissolved it in stven months, and
!ailed another Parliament on the same principle, which
lasted only three months ; and when Lord Clarendon who,
recording to the Noble Lord, is the gr, at panegyrist of
that Peform, comes to speak of it in his own person, he
uses these expressions :—" The Parliament did not re-
assemble with the same temper and resignation with which
it parted. It quickly appeared how insecure new institu-

tinny are—(Cheers)—and %Olen the contrivers of them
have provided, as they think, against all mischievous con-
tingencie-, they find they have unwarily left a gap open to
let their destiuction i❑ upon them."—(Long and loud
cheering.) Such is the opinion of the philosophic histo-
rian when speaking his own sentiments upon Crom-
well's notable Morin. This leads me to think that

II may rely upon Lord Clarendon rather than upon
he Noble Lord, and it will ?hew that my warning
bout distrusting quotathris was not needless. 1
apprehend, then, that I have succeeded in sheaving,
bat whether Reform he or be not necessary, you have no
right to contend that it is necessary, because the present
constitution of Parliament is a usurpation upon the rights
of the people.—(Hear, herr.) The real question is thus :
Is the House of Commons, as present constituted, fit fur
the objects for which it was intended ; and is it better for
the public interest rather to submit to some acknowledged
evil than to incur the hazard of a change in our represen-
tation? The real question is, not merely whether you
will abolish these small boroughs, but whetter the system
you propose to substitute for them is such as will provide
for the permanent security of society, for the enjoy:nent of
liberty, and fur the possession of property?—(Hear, hear.)
I must say, that 1 distrust the principles on which you,
propose ,o effect this change. I contend for the existence
of the nomination boroughs in preference to that uniform
system of voting which your Bill goes to establish, for I
have never found in the page of history an example of a
country, here or elsewhere, in which a tempered Mo-
narchy has been co-existent with such a representation.—
(Hear, hear.) At no period in the history of France, ex•
cept at the present moment, has such a principle of repre-
sentation been in operation. As was said in the speech
of the Noble Lord, the Member for Wootton Basset, the
hest first speech 1 ever heard—(Cheers)—the National
Assembly of France did not trust, in the formation of
their representative system, to a uniform right of voting.
Mr. Burke has said that their representation was founded
on three bases—population, territory, and wealth—and an
additional right of voting was given according to property.
You will never find in any country but a Republic, if you
give to property the right of voting not determined by the
Amount of tint property, that ancient privileges can long
remain in existence there. In France there were Electoral
Colleges, and up to this year the amount of property had
its peculiar weight. Out of the Members returned for
Arrondissements and Departments, 176 were returned by
a certain class of voters, those who contributed the highest
amount of taxes to the State. It was felt in France, that
there must be the weight of property as a protection against
die aggression of numbers. This system has been ago.
Idled, and what is the consequence ? Have you read the
reports from France this day ?—(Hear, hear.) Such has
been the progress of popular opinions, in consequence of
change, that those men who a year since were the popular
leaders, who organized the combination that drove the
Bourbons from the Throne, have, after the lapse of one
short year, been supplanted by men of more demccratical
Tirit.—(Lond cheering.) But then it is said, why
not trust the people of England, they are well-wishers
to a Monarchy ? I answer, why not trust the people
of Francs, for I do not charge them with hostility to
monarchical institutions ? But I say in both cases,
that suet, a change in the principle of representation
has an inevitable tendency so to propel popular opi-
[dun., that ancient institutions cannot hold out against
them.—( Loud cheering.) On this very night on which
we are called on to deliberate, the new system is under-
going its trial in France ; and yet at this moment
of excitement are we called on to affirm the leading prin •
eiples at this Bill, although we are as yet ignorant of the
issue in France ; but though we are ignorant of the fact,
there is every reason to believe that the result will be such
as even the present Government of this country must de-
precate.—(Cheers.) Among the great majority to which
I find myself reluctantly opposed, I cannot help thinking
,here are Borne who, as the excitement is
subsiding, cant
a longing lank at the ancient institutions of the .
old doubt whether there is any such paramount necessity
to justify us in incurring the immense danger of this mea-
sure. 1 heard the other night a quotation from Cicero,

made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, who did tee
the honour to suppose I was familiar with it. I did think,
notwithstanding that my recollection on the subject was
vague, and that political labours have unfortunately made
it weakera—that there were other expressions in the
same work of a totally different character, some aduni-
rahle lessons with respect to the principle of changes
in Governments, from which even now, after the lapse of
centuries, we may draw benefit. 1 was pleased to
hear him express a wish, in which I most cordially
join, that ,4 long may such studies be the solace of
virtuous and venirable age." To the book he men-
tioned I have referred, and in that treatise, in that very
page, I have found a salutary caution, which I shall now
extract. It is a tempered and dignified reproof of
the haste with which condemnations of forms of Go-
vernment are given. The words are these—" Vitia qui-
dem tribunatus ptaeclaie. Quinte, pErspicis, sed est initria
in omni re accusinda, pre•ermissis bonis, malorum enume-
ratio, vitiorumpe selectio."—(Cheers.) Let me remark
upon that text : ' Nam isto quidem modo vel consulatos
vituperiu est, se consulum, epos enumerare nolo, peecata
collegeris.' Yes, says Cicero, if you adapt this course, no
institution will be sate. So I say in the present instance,
with respect to the small boroughs and with the Peerage ;
and if the Government will join with the Press_.(Lotid
cheers)—in condetnn'ng them we most net wonder if mind!.
unacquainted with the real fact should madly arlaptthe cen-
sure. If the excessive absurdity of hereditary legislators
should he asserted, and above all, if it should he said that
this prerogative was exercised by men wino inherited the
right from their fathers, without any necessity of personal
qual,fication on their part, we must he astonished at thy
effect of such remarks.—(Cheers.) " Si peccata colle-
geris," I don't know what will lie the fate of the Peerage.
—(Cheers, and laughter.) " Ego enini fateor in ista,
ipsa pot, sate inf sae quiddatn mali. Sed bonutn rpiorl est
quwsiturn, sine esto main non balierensus."—( Cheers.) I
fear. Sir, that I cannot eradicate the evil without de-
priving myself of the good.—(Cheers.) Let us act, Sir,
upon these maxims of caution, and not in our too great
eagerness to eradicate admitted defects, upset the Can_
etstution which has insured to the people more hap_
pines, and no liberty than any other.—( Loud cheers.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite has contended
that the House of Commons is unfit for the purposes for
which it Wes intended ; and if his arguments are true,
we are in arrear of the age—we consult the interest of the
tax consumer, and neglect the interests of the tax payer.
If we ore unfit for the representative character, the time
has arrived when there ought to be an extensive Reforma-
tion ; but I deny the fact—l deny that the House of
Commons as at present constituted, neglects its duty, or is
incompetent as a Legislative Assembly, or that it is in
ai rear of the intellect of the age ; and if I do not prove to
the satisfaction of every unprejudiced roan that my denial
is right, I will consent to go to the second reading of
this Bill. Now, with respect to neglect of the tax payer.
Why was the property-tax removed ? The Government
wished to retain it ; but it was removed in deference to
the petitions that demanded its repeal.—(Cheers.) It was
the same with the bear duties, which we not ooly re-
moved for the benefit of the labouring poor, at the desire of
the people; but we did so with such haste, that that it-
self was made a charge against us.—(Hear, hear.) There
is no pretence, therefore, for saying that this House is in
arrear of the intellect of the age, or that it neglects the
wishes of the people. Is that charge supported by the
conduct of this House on the question of the currency ?
Was this House in arrear with the intellect of the age,
when it adopted the system of commercial intercourse in-
troduced by Mr. Huski-aon ? If the House had been a Re-

formed House, elected as now proposed, is there any one who
believes that that sp.tem could have tarn introduced ?
The Catholic question, again, sheaved that we were not
behind the intellect of the age ; and I ask again, if the
new House of Commons had Existed, whether there was
a chance that that measure would have been carried.--

(Cheers.) In that pamphlet of " Friendly Advice to the
Lords," it is stated as an insinuation, not directly, that
the Catholic disabilities were removed agsinst the opinions
and wishes of the people, of the majority of that class of
voters which you are about to create.—(Cheers. ) Again,
the Teat and Corporation Acts were repealed against their
wishes.—(No, no, no.) I wont rely upon that, but the
Catholic disabilities were. It is bard, after all, thus to
charge the House of Commons at one time with exceeding
the liberality of the people, and another with being behind
them, and to make both charges the ground of changing
the constitution of the House.—(Loud cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman has said we have governed
so well that we mustbr made better, and that is the senti-
ment he applies to this Hod-e.—(Laughter ) That is
to say. that without Reform for 400 years, so elastic bas
been the principle of improvement in the Government, that
the people of this country have been better governed than
any other ; and being so, what are we to do—to adhere to
the old sys,ein ? No, but to destroy it.—(Cheers.) He
says that, looking through the whole habitual globe at so-
ciety as it now exists in every quarter of it since civil in-
stitutions were formed, he does nut find any society so
perfect as that of England in the developement of its in-
terests, in the improvement of science, in the cultivation of

he land, in the enjoyment and protection of property, and
he attributed all this to the perfection of the form of Go-
verninar; and then as a consequence he says, you must
change the system itself.—(Heir, hear.) What are the
defects that are thus to be set against this liberty and
happiness? Why, first, the state of the Penal Code;
then the bottomless pit of Chancery—(Hear, and laughter)
—and this-thy, in this happy country, a new represen-
tative system is necessary, because of a defective system of
fines and recoveries.--(Cheers and laughter long continued.)
It is not miserable pedantry to sly, that in consequence
of such defects these great advantages of our state of
society are to be forfeited—(Cheery)—the more mise-
rable, since all of these this House is competent to re.,
move; and some of these evils the people had never be-
fore beard of. If Ido not prove, to mathematical demon-
stration, that this Bill will not remedy these evils, I
will consent to go to the second reading. The ten.
pound householder may understand the making of roads ;
but he is the worst person in the world to consult about
fines anti recoveries. I am sure that if I were to ask these
persons :a hat floes and recoveries are, the majority would
answer, that tine was a pecuniary penalty, and recovery a
state of convalescence.— (Cheers.) But the fact is, that
tire greatest reformers of these evils have sat for small bo-
roughs—Romilly, Mackintosh, and my Lord Brougham.
It is the moat extraordinary logic to argue as the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman has done. It cannot be said that the
Peers influence this House, for, with respect to charity it-
self, the Bill of Lord Lyndhurst, passed by the Lords, was
rejected by this House. The first blow against fines and
recrweiiet, was struck by this House in an Address to the
Thr ne, and we have now Bills upon that subjec' before
us. Then with respect to,theyenal Code. The late Govern-
ment may be somewhat responsible for that, but the House
itself has shown a disposition to mitigate the penal
laws. With respect to forgery, I introduced a Bill re-
mitting the punishment of death, except in certain
cases ; this House, however, did remove that punish-
ment, from other cases than those I had selected ; and
though the Bill did not ultimately pass in that shape, it
was nut this House, but the House of Lords, which re-
stored the punishment. If, therefore, the arguments of
the lion. and Learned Gentlemen have any weight, they
should show that the Reform should take place in the
House of Lords--(Cheers)—it is they who have defeated
the benevolent intentions of the House of Commons, and
yet we are not now proposing to Reform the House of
Lords, but the House of Commons, which in ail the in-
stances to which I have referred, has shown that it is nei-
ther behind the intellect of the age, nor neglectful of the
coniplaints of the people.—(Cheers.) I say, then, Sir,
that the argument for' change in this House does net►
exist.—(Hear, hear ) I will now say a few words with
respect to the Bill itself. There are two great prin-
ciples in it—that of disfranchisement, and that of the new
constitution of the House. Four times have there been
essential alterations made in the Bill; and although we
saw held out the phantom of the ten-pound right of
!Toting, yet four times has that very matter been sub-
jected to changes, and to changes so important that
nay confidence must not be asked for those who have
felt it necessary to make them. At first the right was given
to resident ten-pound househo!ders, and to them alone. The
changes made in the Bill went to alter the whole of
what would, under the Bill as it originally stood, form the
constituency of Manchester. So far from leaving the re-
presentation of that town in the hands of the resident house-
holders, it would place it in the hands of those who pos-
sessed warehouses, and did not reside. Thus, then, did
those alterations change the original constituency tinder
the Bill, by tens and thousands; and those changes, now
that they were noticed, would prchahly be called inadver-
tencies.—(Lood and continued cheering.) The audio's
of the Bill, after having established the 10/. franchise,
come forward and make an alteration in that which ac-
tually disfranchises one-tenth upon whom they had previously
conferred the privilege ; and then they came forward and
told the House that they made those changes, not with
the view of affecting 101 actual occupiers, but for the
purpose of excluding those who made weekly payments ;
possessing the mere shadow, and utterly abandoning the real
substance of the . 10/. qualification. tinder the Bill,
as at present introduced, 12 or 15,000 electors might have
been entitled to vote in the town of Birmingham°. With
their fitness or unfitness he haul nothing to do ; but
teary in the present excited state of the public mind.

it was rather too much for the Government ;,o to
tamper with the passions and feelings of the people.
Men ought not to administer prussic acid without having
well informed themselves of the power of such a poison.
By the simple insertion of the words half yearly, and the
substitution for that of the word quarterly, they had done
much, and they need not hope that what they had done
would escape the att• ration of men as intelligent as them-
selves. In the first place they had given the elective
franchise to resident householders, under particular cir-
cumst traces, and altered the qualification ; in the second
place they had conferred the right upon the resident owner
of warehouses, not before given to them ; in the third place
they had altered the payment from halt-yearly to quarterly
—and fourthly, they had made another alteration which
consisted of the substitution of one for two, a matter
which it might he supposed they thought to be of no sort
of importance; but the omission of the word " nut" would
effect a great alteration in the seventh commandment.—
There was another important alteration which he had now
to notice, that was imparting the right of voting to the
possession of land, when that land was connected with a
house. That was a very important change. The frequent
alterations thus made in the original measure altogether de-
stroyed his confidence in his Majesty's Government, seeing
that they could not make up their minds definitively upon
masters of such vast moment ; and hence it was that he
doubted their ability to conduct the Government of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) In the present state of the li
lower classes, he thought it a matter of the very greatest
moment that means ought to be afford d them of possess-
ing small gardens attached to their cottages. The pre-
sent Bill gave direct eneourageomnt to the detaching from
the cmtages the small pieces of ground suited for gardens,
and converting them into such holdings as would impart
the right of voting. Not that he meant to insinuate that
the landlords of England would do anything of the sort in
order to serve any electioneering purposes, hut he would
affirm, that any piece of legislation which afforded direct
encouragement to such a mode of managing their estatts,
was unsound in principle. For those reasons, tilt n, the
Bill should have his most decided opposition. It had been
said that he had prepared some [scheme of his own for the pur-
pne ofeff,cting a Reform in the representation of the people
—lie had been taunted with being a tartly Reformer. It was
well known that he lad relinquis! ed his post in the former
Government, rather, in the state in which the country
then was, than risk any other change of Govermnent,
seeing that it was impossible fur any Government to go on
that opposed itself to Reform. When he reduced himself
to the ranks of the ordinary Members of that House, he
acknowledged that he was prep med to make a compromise
on the subject of Reform, and that he would gladly support
a Bill introduced by Hon. Members opposite, on their own
responsibility as Ministers, provided that Bill was such a
measure as it would be safe for any conscientious Member
of that House to sanction with his vote. As a Minister,
he was himself unwilling to open a door, of the shutting of
which he saw no prospect ; and always holding, that what-
ever Ministry proposed such a BM, must and ought to be
responsible for its consequencea. They had been told that
the people were determined to have Reform : so dissatisfied
were they with the constitution of that House, that the
Government of the country could not be conducted without
some change, and that of no trifling or unimportant nature,
If that were the permanent and settled feeling of the
country. he should regret to find it so, hut he could never
cease to regard it as a delusion ; and he was sure, that in
offering to it a conscientious opposition, the people would
respect his motives ; but was it quite certain that the
people wire so unanimous—was it quite certain that the
people, in the exercise of a sober judgment, desired a
Reform so extensive ? There was one part of the conduct

of his Majesty's Government which he could not help no-
ticing, for he thought that they had in that matter
acted most imprudently—he alluded to the use that

had been made of the name of the King with refe-
rence to the question of Reform. There could be
no doubt that his Majesty bad the fullest right to exer-
cite his Royal Prerogative in the wanner he had done,
and to dissolve the Parliament ; but whether he did so or
not, there was nothing more unwise than the use that had
been made of the personal influence of the Sovereign, by
;affirming that the King teas personally in favour of Re-
form, and stories were put into circulation peculiarly
suited to vulgar minds,—such as, that the King would go
down to Parliament in a hackney coach, and such like re-
presentations, adding to all, that loyalty to the King was
identified with hostility to the Constitution. Such con-
duct he thought highly dangerous in times of great excite-
ment, though it might at the time it was used, serve
the purposes of election triumph. Such causes as those
were peculiatly calculated to disturb the sober judgment
of the people, and therefore to place the House of Com-
mons in a situation in which they were not comp-tent to
decide with safety a question of so much importance as
the constitu!ion of that Iloume; he, therefore, would ask

time for deliberation, for he doubted that the people were
anything like so unanimous as they bad been represented ;
and if, upon a (pewit n of such importance, they fell into
any error, the people, upon getting sober, would be the
very first to reproach them for having deferred to popular
opinion, rather than to exercise their own judgment.
Doubting, then, if they were unanimous, doubting whe-
ther unanimity prevailed or not, that the sentiment would
be permanent—objecting to the Bill, because he could not
regard it as a meacure founded upon an acknowledged
principle—denying that it proceeded upon the recom.
menclation of the Speech from the Throne, for it did not
secure the just prerogative of the Crown, neither did it
guarantee the legitimrite influence of both Houses of Par-

iament—Airming too, that it gave less security than he.

fore to the popular institutions of the country, he should
off rto the Bill Ids most decided opposition. e offered
that opposition the more readily, when he remembered
that the Bill went to destroy a system which had endured
for six centuries, by means of which the greatest political
problem was solved, namely, that of giving security to the
liberties of the people, and vigour to the Government, in
a more perfect degree than had ever been attained in any
past age. or in any country upon earth.--(Cheers.)
Sir F. BURDEIT then addressed the House, but the
early sentences of his speech were lost in the cries of
" Bar," " Bar," and " Order." We understood the

ion. Baronet to congr.►tulate the Right lion. Gentleman

(Sir R. Peel) opposite, on the tone of his speech, and to
regret that that tone had ever In en departed from in the
discus ion of this question. Still, however, the speech of
the Right Hon Baronet, in its matter and purport, re-
sembled not so much the speech of a legislator as the speech
which would have been made by a lawyer at the
bar of the House, who had been retained to defend the

borough proprietors, and who, in the prosecution of that
duty, had skilfuLy endeavoured to throw dust into Hon.
Members' eyes, and to conciliate, as far as he could conci-
liate, the persons who were to decide upon the question.—
(Cheers.) Into that speech of the It ght Hon. Baronet
he thought that he t+as not called upon to enter, and for
this reason, the House would call to mind that the early
part of that speech, after the Hon. Baronet had stated
what he thought the proper mode of discussing the ques-
tion,—the House would call to mind that the early part
of the Right Hon. Baronet's speech consisted almost
wholly and entirely of an argument ad hominem—an
argument with which he (Sir Francis Burdett) could
have nothing to do, and which had very little to do
With the question.—(Hear, hear.) The main part of
the Right Hon. Baronet's speech consisted of an admi-
nistrational, and from the Administration it might, per-
haps call for an answer, but from him, or from any other
general advocate of Reform, it could nut, require any re-
ply ; and although be did not complain of the Right Hon.
Baronet adopting any mode of address he pleased, yet he
must be allowed to say, that in his opinion, the Hon.
Baronet had not, in the mode he adopted, taken either a
great or a statesman-like view of. the important question
now under their consideration.—(Cheers.) Ably, very
ably, he must admit had the Right Hon. Baronet endea-
voured to mislead the House, and to divert their attention
from the nature of the question before them ; but when'
the Right Hun. Baronet talked about the Constitution, '
did he, or did he not, blink this question—namely, whe
ther it was a part of the Constitution that Peers and
others should nominate persons to seats in that House?—
(Much cheering.) This was the real question for their '
decision—(Cheers)—and was it to be endured, be asked,
that in this House, which was called the representative,.
of the people, seventy Peers should nominate to 150
seats?—(Cheers.) But the Right Hon. Baronet had to,d
them that the people were labouring under a temporary
excitement—an excitement caught from the temper of the
present times in foreign parts. Was the Right Hon. Ba-
, rove: serious when be told them this ? If so, allow him
t„ 50v, that the Right Hon. Baronet had forgotten the
whole of the past history of his own country ; for as
long as he (Sir Francis Burdett) had been engaged in
public affairs,—ever since he entered into public life,
this question hail excited the people.—(Cheers.) Yes,
excited them to such a degree, that the Government had
actually attempted to suppress that excitement by military
force. (Cheers and cries of " No, no," from the Oppo.
sition.) No ! What had the Hon. Gentlemen who cried
no" forgotten the Manchester business ?--(Cheers.)
Had they forgotten the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act ? Had they forgotten the imprisonment—aye, the
imprisonment for whole years—of many of their fellow.
subjects, who till that moment had never been brought tc,
trial, and who till that moment had remained without
compensation for this deprivation of their
(Cbctrs.) Were these things to be cast into ohlivion, and

forgetting these, were doy lo be told that this question ut
Reform was a question the agitation of which was con•
menced only the other day—a question which had roused
in the minds of the people a feeling quite novel, a feeling
to which they had never given utterance before ?
(Cheers.) Why, there was upon the table of the House
a petition which was presented by Lord Grey in 1795,
which complained of the constitution of that House,
and which enumerated, among other abuses, that fact
which he had just mentioned respecting the nomination
of Members by Peers. From that day until the present
the people had complained of the manner in which the%
were represented, or rather misrepres nted ; and he
would venture to say, that the whole history of this
country would show the people—though under different
circumstances, in different times, and in different lan-
guage—contending for this great principle that they ought
not to he taxed without being represented. When the
Right Hon. Baronet talked of principles, he forgot the,
two great principles,—namely, that the people ought not
to he taxed if they were not represented, and that elections
ought to be free.---( Hear, hear.) These w. re ancient and
original principles of the Constitution. Fiot &ea° rite
ct liberi was a maxim of the common law, which was sup-
ported by many acts in the statute-bock. He did not wish
to call namts, or to use harsh expressions, but there was
a class of persons who more or less dealt in boroughs, and
whom he knew not how to characterise except by the
name of " borouglimongets"—(Cheers)—and the exis-
t ince of such persons was, he contended, not only no in-
sti ution of the country, hut contrary to the common and
statute law of the land.—(Hear. hear.) Nay, farther,
he declared, without fear of contras'iction, that persons
who practised such dealings were guilty of criminal offences,
and liable to he prosecuted as criminals.—( Hear, rear.)
A law which was passed before the time of the Tudors,
—after first plainly declaring the object it had in view,
as all our old laws did—enacted in Norman French, the
words of which he did not recollect, but Lnrd Coke in-
terpreted them to mean that if any great man disturbed
the freedom of elections, be subj.•cted himself to severe
penalties. From that time till the present this doctrine
had been confirmed by Acts of the Legislature, and, though
it was constantly set at nought, was still the law of the
land. From that time, too, until the present, the people
had complained that this law was violated, and IA
called for Reform ; and although, not to go very far back
for an instance, Lord Chatham ha I told the House that

if they did not reform themselvis from within, they would
he reformed with a vengeance from without, yet the Right
lion. Baronet now stood up gravely in his place, and told
them that ha dated the excitement of the people upon the
subject of Reform to the French and Belgic affairs of yes-
tetday.—(Cheers.) But why need the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet tremble at the occurrences which had taken place in
France, while the instance of America must prove to him
that to obey the voice of the people was not necessarily to
plunge into anarchy, and confu'ion, and disturb ince ?
What the people of England complained of was, the un-
constitutional practice of Peers nominating their so called
representatives, instead of themselves ; and what the y,
therefore, with justice demanded was a restoration of their
rights—to have a voice in the election of those on whose
decisions their properties and lives depended. This de-
mand of the people was not the tesult of temp ,ra; y excite-
ment, as the Right Hon. Baronet would insinuate, but
the echo of the long-expressed wish of the wealth and in-
tellgence of the middle classes for Reform.—(Hear.)
When Lord Cochrane was his colleague, he and that
Noble Lord actually covered the table of that flouse
with petitions for Reform ; but the House refused to
attend to them, and would do so still, hut for
the increased influence of public opinion. The Ho-
nouarable Baronet proceeded next to advocate the
utility of political unions, like to that in Birmingham,
so long hs the people were denied a legitimate ebanni
for the expression of their grievances. They had, as
it was, produced an excellent effect in keeping alive and
strengthening the love of political liberty. The Right
lion. Baronet (Sir 11. Peel) would, however, give the

question for the present the go by ; but the attempt
would be vain ; the country was no longer to be deluded ;
and danger would he the consequence of longer with-
holding its just rights.—(Bear.) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, notwithstanding all his professions of candour, had
most imcandidly applied himself to the details of the Bill,
while the real question before the House was its principle.
And that principle resolved itself into the simple ques-
tion,—have or have not the people of England a right to
call upon the House to apply its. If to redress grievances of
long standing ?—(Hear.) This was the real question, and
not threw matters of detail in which the flight lion. 13,1-
: ronet had expatiated at such length, though a Committi e
would have been a more fitting place ; and this important
question was not to be got rid of by the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet shutting his eyes to its main facts, end endeavour-
ing to make up a plausible case for the boroughmongers
by quotations from Cicero "De Legibus," which, when
expressed in common English, won'd be found to be vapid
common-place.—(Hear, hear.) And mark the modesty
of the Right Hon. Baronet. " The people of Eng-
land," says he, " I admit are just row in favour of Re-
form ; but they are wrong, and I am tight."—(Cheers
and laughter.) What ! the people of England—and by
that term he meant the middle classes, the wealth,
and intelligence, and solid support of the country—not
know who are their friends and who are their enemies !
who the guardians of their. rights and properties,
and who the betrayers and despoilers of both, as well as
My Lord this or My Lord that, or the Right Hon, Baro-
net, notwithstanding his solemn cautions—(Cheers)--not
as enlightened and independent, and as distinguished for
integrity and regard to the public interests, as any man or
men in either House, of Parliament. Why, one of the
benefits he expected !ruin the Reform Bill was, that it
would admit into that House more talent, more practical
knowledge, and more in& pendence, than was to be seen
in it at !resent. " Bur," say the enemies of the Bill,
see how the country bas thi iven under our institutions,
and would you with rash hands mar the Constitution from
which such excellent results have followed?" No, we r!o
not want to destroy the Constitution, but to restore and
preserve it, in all its genuine purity—(Lond cries e•f
" Hear, hear")—and when the Members cried out thus,
"Beware of laying your havals on our matchless Coestitu-
lion," all he could say was, to ask, like him in ancient
Rome, who was told. to admire the statue of Hercules,
qrsis rituperavit ?—(Hear.) He venerated the Constitution
—he felt the warmest allegiance to the excellent Monarch
on the throne--he loved his virtues as a man—he admirtd
hie conduct as a King—(Ches rs)—and be felt convinced,
that while his Majesty was united, as he was at present,
with his people in the pursuit of one greet object, the
improvement of the representation in that House, he
may set at defiance the efforts of faction, particularly
such a faction tes at present raised its puny voice against
Referm.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, heat ") They
had had the benefit of much whining prophecyimze
from the Right Hon. Baronet, delivered in his most
elabcrate tone of candour and solemnity, as to the evils
of the present Bill ; but that was not the first time in
which he had indulged in his pythonisms.—(Hear.) They
recollected his whining propliecyinge,—repeated year
after year,---4 the danger to the Constitution of the Ca-

tholic Relief Bill—(Hear, hear)—and they all also recol-
lected his counter- vaticinations of the still greater danw.r to
of refusing to pass that wise ipeasure.—(Lond cries of
" Hear.") They all recollected his solemn remonstrances
against the Test and Corporation Acts repeal.—(Hear.)
And they all recollected how he prudently assisted in prov-
ing the absurdity of his own declarations.—(Hear, hear.)
And so now with respect to the Reform Bill, against
which he takes it upon him to prophecy, notwithstanding
his own repeated proofs of the narrow range of his fore-
sight.—(llear.) " But," says the Right Hon. Baronet,
" the people of England were numerically opposed to the
Catholic Relief Bill, so that if we had at the time a Re-
formed Parliament, it would now have passed—(" Hear,"
from the Opposition)—ergo we borough representatives
are wiser than the people of England ; and ergo there is no
necessity for this Reform Bill —(Hear.) Now he denied
his premise and his conclusion. Not only the enlightened
portion of the people were friendly to the Catholic Belie;
Bill, but the niass of the people.—(Hear.) Nay, more,
if they were not, and that the House acted contrary to
their wishes in passing that Bill, it only followed that it
was not composed of their real representatives-01(.3d—
oorl s!muld therefore be reformed. The Hon. Baronet hav-
ing dwelt on this point at considerable length proceeded tr,
say no danger could arise from the Reform Bill to the sta-
bility of the constitutional privileges of the Peers. Their
usurping the power of nominating to seats in that House was
not constitutional, but the very reverse; so that the Bil
could not be complained of if it put an end to that usur-
pation. Let the Peers keep themselves in their ow,•
station, in the exercise of their duties, and not trench upor,
the people's, and the people would not trench upon theirs.
If they thought they had no better support than rotten
borough!, it was evident that they knew not the theor
or the practice of the Constitution. But the system or
boroughmongering was no longer to be borne.—(Hear.)
It had cost us America—it had produced the war witl,
France, with a legacy of oppression on the industry
the country, in the shape of our immense debt ; and
more, it fettered us, so that we dared not venture to in
terfere in foreign affairs—say the glorious struggle of
Poles—(Cheers)—even though invited byt Fronayosura,;,l i
and nation policy.—(Hear, hear.) D
Zion
Baronet (Sir J. Malcolm) opposite, recollect, that.
shut up the close boroughs, num of experience

' of the colonic.' cannot find an avenue of admission
into that House, so you must legislate for the colonies in
the dark. Now he would ask the Hon. Baronet, by way
of en argamentum ad Imminent, was he, with all his
various knowledge of the affairs of India, on which he had
expatiated last night, a representative of that great colony.
or a n ,mince of a boroughmonger ?—(Loud cries of
Hum") Did he not, in fact, fill his present seat on
she express stipulation that his votes and conduct in that
Home should exactly correspond with the sentiments
of the borough proprietor who sent hint there ?-•-•
( Hear, hear.) And was not a defence of the
rotten borough system an essential feature of these
sentiments, and therefore should he vote contrary
to tha: system would not he, notwithstanding his
extensive acquaintance with the affairs of India, be
milt-with ejected by his patron ?—(Deafening cries of
Hea.e") What did the Duke of Northumberland care
Acta 120 millions of British subjects in India, in com-
parison with the possession of one of his Corowall bo-
roughs !---(Cheers.) Nut a straw : no, not more than
he (Sir F. Burdett) cared for the snap of his fingers.--
(" and laughter : the Hon. Baronet suited the
action to the word.) So the argument was a mere
fillacy.---(Hear.) It was a curious fact, that Mr. Pitt
I,ad ie 1785 made use of the very same arguinent,—and
that, too, with effect—to show the necessity of Reform—
(Hear, hear)--quoting, as a rem likable case in point, that
so far from the people of Eng) nd being the electors of the
major ty of Members in that House, the Nabob of Arcot
n eninated seven or eight.—(Hear.) He cared little for
cheers with which the Right Hon. Baronet had been
greee,d; they Lad b. en given on the same principle as
the c ondryinan's whistle, who had given it as he crossed
the churchyard for no other purpose than to keep his
courage op.--(Clieers.) He recollected an expression
whiz!' a gallant offii,-er, whom he was proud to call his
friend, huh used,—lie meant Colonel Napier,—who, in
desert' ing one o' the victories which our brave country-
men had won in the Peninsula, by the gallantry of their
chaaee, had Pah', " then it was the French army saw the
maitsty of an English soldii-r." Ile would }sorrow that
expression, and would say, that during the late elections
the boreuglitnoneers had seen the ina.n-sty of the people of
Englan,'.—(Cheets.) The Right Hon. Baronet had seen
once, alre,dy, the error of the policy which he had
adopted.—(Cheers.) Lie had changed his policy on
the subjiiet of Cailvd.c emancipatdin in the 'nest manly
way, at he moment when it was least expected—(Hear)
an I yet, though e had changed his policy, the Right Hon.
B ronst hal stated that he had not changed the opinions on
whirl, that policy was founded. The Right lion. Baronet
hvl proclaimed his dislike of quotations, and there'ore he
(Sir F. Burdett) was loth to make a quotation from Shah-
speare, which he considered very applicable to the Right
H in. Baronet's conduct on that occasion. He doubted
not but the. Right Hon. Baronet recollected it ; for it was
a passage in which Hotspur said, " I tell you my Lord
fo .1, out of the nettle danger, you have plucked the flower
sifety."—(Cheera and laughter.) He hoped that the
Right Hon. Baron. t would see as urgent reasons to change
his policy on this question of Reform as he had seen to
change his policy on the question of Catholic Emancipa-
tion,---(Cheers.) He maintained, in opposition to the
Rieht Hon. Bat ouet, that the excitement which now pre•
vailed was not a temporary excitement, which would norm
be cam again. The pi essnt Bill had been thoroughly
examined, and was well understood by the people. It
gave them all which they required—for they did not stand
on abstract principles, but sought only to acquire a prac-
ti, al hoed. To-at was the feeling which prevailed through-
out England, ind which would prevail until tai, Bill was
carried. lie would not trespass longer upon the attention •
of the }louse. He would shortly say, that it 'di,' appear to
him that the only question which the House had to decide
wa4, whether the Bill was supported by the permanent
1e ling and conviction of the people of England or not;
because, if it was supported by that feeling and that
conviction, it was the duty of Parliament to pass it in
such a shape as would at once ac«munodate it to thc.r
wishes, and render it the source of inestimable benefit nit
only to thorn, but to their remotest de icendants.—( Cheers. )

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, observed, that as some re-
marks had been made in the melee of the debate which
were personal to himself, and as other matters had been
brought before the House which affected the character of
the Government, he could not allow the debate to close
without intruding, one or two oliservatious upon its notice.
In the first place he begged permission to notice the re-
mark of a Gallant General, who h of found fault with him
for the manner in which he had given his explanation of
thi. Bill when he first introduced it. The Gallant Ge-
neral had said, that upon th it occasion his manner was not
me:elL,• unbecoming, it was downright arroeant. Now,
if by any accident his manner had been such as the Gal-
lant General had described, lie could assure the House that
it had been so most undeehnedly. He had indulged in no
unbecoming or arrogant exultation : even if he had in-
dulged in any such teeling, which he denied, it had not
been occasioned by any thing which had occurred lat ly,
—it had been occasioned by what had occurred in the last
session of Parliament. The debate had been conducted,
on the present occasion, in a manner worthy of its im-
portarce. In that fair exercise of debate which had been
observed on the present occasion, he had remarked that
those who argued against this Bill had taken two grounds,
which they had no right to occupy, The first
ground was, that it was an innovation upon the
Constitution,—an objection which bad been too
often refuted to require any further answer at
his hands. The next was, that the clamour which hail
been raised in support of it, had been raised in consequence
of the improper use which had been made of the name of
his Majesty at the late elections. Ile admitted that to
his mind it a as objectionable, that the name of his Majesty
slaridd be intraducsd at all upon such occasions; but ne
would beg leave to remind the House, that his Majesty's
Ministers had net been guilty of any such conduct, neither
ought they to be held responsible fur that cry which
throughout the country had connected the names of Re-
form and of the King t •gether. It was undoubtedly the
duty of his Majesty's Government to give that advice
which they had given to has Majesty resi.ecting the disso-
lution of Parliament, when they had to combat with a
succession of repot ts, weieh stated that his Majesty was
opposed to his responsible advisers, and when individuals
were attemping to divide the personal authority of the
Kier:, from the measures which were brought forward
linier Ids constitutional sanction. He said that those
efforts had produced an effect. on the mind of the people
until the King had gone down to dissolve Parliament
in person. The question was then solved as to the
feeling of the King, and it then became a natural
consequence of the false reports which the ene-
mies of Reform had spre id, that the King's name should
be connected with the question of Reform, and that
a cry hail gone out through the country, making the
name of the King mote prominent than, hut for the ma-
chinations of the opponents of Reform, it would ever have
become. The Right Hon. Baronet had warred the House
over and over again against quotations. There was one
quotation which he must repeat to the house. The Right
Hen. Baronet seemed to think that he had been are
gu:n; against the principle of standing by the Constitution
for a purpose which he had never intended. The purpose
for which he had entered upon this argument was, first of
all, to show that there was, in our institutions a tendency'
to change ; and, secondly, that electors and elections
ought to he free. For that object he had, on a former °e-
rasion, quoted the preamble of an Act of Gorge 11., and
he would now proceed to quote a passage from a writer
_Mr. Hume—whom be believed the Right Hon. Baronet
would admit to be an authority. After describing the sys-
tem of representation which Edward L had givers to this
country. Mr. Hume added theme words—" It is a most,
equitable rule," said the Monarch, " that what concert is
all should be approved by all, and common dangers be r.-
pelled by united efforts ; a noble principle which may
seem to indicate a liberal mind in the King, and whims
may lay the foundation of a free and rquitable Govern-
ment." He said that the principle then laid down wee
the foundation of the system of Reform now pro-
e
posed to rho consideration of the
eiagrilethlebioryeeu,ndsei,i,.idaunnea(Tiitniltgetel
formers Paid that a nation which was entitled to consider
itself as moral and free, was liable to he disttehed per-
pef ually by a system of election which was at once ha,-
harms, immoral, and destructive of freedom. The people
claimed that that system should
, tl
Ministels, say that their claim is just.—(Cheere.) We
say, let their claim e granted ; let the people of England
be fairly and freely represented in the House of Commons ;
for we are convinced that they will nut make a wrong use
politicalof the power intrusted to
.)
n his conscience, that a gee t and (C eer
privilegese
hi which
our own, would snake that rise of
freedion required, and in that confidence he placed this
Bill before the finesse, in the hope of uniting the people
them
to support the legitimate
the tiFt.loorirtihteyslifcob:ole Houses of Pa riiliaeximo:nr tat—he(CCTseevrils'. )and
The House then divided, when the numbers appeared
367
For the amendment
Majority in favour of Ministers -136
ihe reading
gited no demonstrations of feeling,
announcement
having been received in silence.
Tee Bill was ordered to Ise committed on Tuesday next.
—Adjourned at Five o'clock, to Friday.

- _
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