The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-16 00:00:00

sate, foresee a tenth part of the difficulties which the Noble
Lord has pointed out as likely to arise. I am, however, con-
fident the Commons would rather encounter those difficulties,
as regards the administration by the Lord Chancellor, than
allow the trusts to remain one year longer in those hands in
which they have not confidence, and their continuance in
which would in no degree satisfy the public.
Your Lordship's, I am quite confident, cannot have better
opportunities of knowing the manner of the administration of
the charitable trusts than we, the Commons, have. On the
contrary, I am prepared to state from evidence that would be
most satisfactory, I have no doubt even to your Lordships, that
i❑ many cases the abuses so extensively and so forcibly stated
by the Municipal Commissioners alluded to, have been con-
tinued to almost the latest period ; and I will further add that
there appears no hope whatever of putting an end to those
abuses but by removing the trustees continued by the Bill of
last Session in these situations. lam therefore quite satisfied,
my Lords, that although the Commons, in a desire to meet
the wishes of your Lordships, might waive the first amend-
ment, which is a matter of less importance, yet, as regards
clause (L) I am quite confident that the Commons would be
deserting their duty to their constituents if they consented to
allow trustees to remain one year longer in whom they have
no confidence, and which would not give the satisfaction we
are bound to give to those whom we represent in Parliament.
I therefore trust that the Commons will continue firm in the
rejection of that clause, preferring to have the alternative
pointed out in the Bill of last Session.
With regard to the first amendment I could not have sup-
posed it possible that your Lordship would have proposed the
selection of a Mayor by lot, and that you should have thrown
aside altogether on so important a question the principle of the
Bill. The principle of the Bill, my Lords, through all its
clauses, was elective, and your Lordships have thought proper,
in violation of that principle, and in contradiction to the whole
tenor of the Bill, to make this amendment by proposing that
lots should be drawn for the Mayor; a course, my Lords,
which in our opinion ought not to be adopted in any delibera-
tive assembly. But, however objectionable and contrary to
the principle of the Municipal Bill, that amendment is, yet, as
a compromise in order that the other clause may be withdrawn,
and that the Bill may pass into a law, I believe there would
be a disposition in the Commons to concede that, though I re-
peat to your Lordships it will be in contradiction to the prin-
ciple, and such as ought not in my opinion to be adopted in
any deliberative assembly.
Lord ELLE NB ORO liG H—l wish to make one observa-
tion, which appears to me necessary, in addition to those which
have been made by other Noble Lords who appear as Ma-
nagers upon this occasion, and that observation has refer-
ence to what has been stated by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman on the other side. I think I may venture to assure
the Managers for the House of Commons that there is
no desire whatever on the part of the House of Lords
to continue permanently in the hands of the existing Trus-
tees the administration of the charitable funds. They see
the extreme inconvenience of those charitable funds remain.
ing in their hands, even for the period to which the Bill
now under consideration would extend their power. They
adopt that mode of administering those funds only because
they think that that course will bring with it a smaller incon-
venience to the public, and especially to the persons interested
in the administration of those funds, than the other alternative
now presented to the two Houses, namely, that of placing
those funds under the administration of the Lord Chancellor.
It may be at the same time fit to suggest to the Managers
for the House of Commons, that it is still competent to the
House of Commons to propose any amendment upon that
clause to which the House of Lords adhere ; that it is still
competent to the House of Commons, by any such amendment,
to establish a strict system of audit, and to place the trustees
under vigilant superintendence during the period for which
their power is prolonged. Speaking only as an individual, I
may be permitted to add, that I do not think the House of
Lords will be disposed to concur in any system that may be
proposed for the future administration of these charitable
funds, in which shall not be involved a strict system of audit
and superintendence. They desire that the persons who are
to be benefited by those funds should be fully protected against
any misapplication of them on the part of those to whom the
administration of the trusts may be committed.
Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—My Lords, I feel most
strongly the great importance of a good understanding being
kept up between the two Houses of Parliament, and every
word that I shall utter to your Lordships will have that object
in view. It seems to me on both points upon which the two
Houses have differed, that upon consideration the Lords may
be disposed to yield. The first certainly is of much less im-
portance, but I think your Lordships will hardly be surprised
that the Commons attach some importance to it, because, for
the first time in legislation, it is proposed by lot to determine
whether one party or another shall have the preponderance in
the government of Municipal Corporations. The effect of
agreeing to what your Lordships propose in regard to the
manner of electing the mayor and aldermen will be this, that
all those who are to be elected will necessarily be of one
party. Suppose, as the fact is, that in Rochester and New-
port the council are nine and nine, then if you are to deter-
mine by lot who shall have the casting vote, you must either
have the chairman with a casting vote of one party or the
other. The consequence will be, that you will have six al-
dermen of one party, or six of another, and the town is per-
maaently to be given up either to the Reformers or the Con.
servatives.
The Commons conceive that it would be more consonant
with the general principles of legislation to refer the question
to the constituent body : that the ratepayers, who are the
electors, should meet and determine who should be the alder-
men, and who should be the mayor.
My Lords, there is no innovation in this : this is conform-
able to the ancient practice which your Lordships well know
prevailed under almost all the ancient charters; the King
gave a liberty to the burgesses who were electors to elect
from among themselves both the mayor and the aldermen.
The Commons conceive there can be nothing at all objection-
able for one turn in resorting to that ancient custom. My
Lords, it would be but for one turn ; for as soon as the com-
mon councils are once complete and set in motion the original
Municipal Corporations Bill has provided for cases of equal
votes in all times to come; but, my Lords, as this would only
be for one turn, I believe that the Commons, to spew their
anxiety to keep up a good understanding with the Lords,
would without difficulty waive their objections to that enact..
men-

With respect to the other, most serious objections occur; I
must remind your Lordships, that by the Municipal Corpora-
tions Bill which was passed in the last session of Parliament,
there was a solemn compact between the two Houses of Par-
liament, and between Parliament and the public, that those
charitable trustees should not be continued for more than one
year. A Noble and Learned Lord who has addressed the
Commons upon this occasion, has said that there has been no
misconduct proved against the individuals who have been con-
tinued as the trustees of those charities. My Lords, I must
remind that Noble Lord that by the 71st section of the Muni..
cipal Corporations Bill those charities were continued in all
the members of all the old Corporations, without difference or
distinction. It was proved to the entire satisfaction of both
Houses of Parliament, and of the community, that those trus-
tees had in various instances most grossly misconducted them-
selves, that they had applied to party purposes those funds
which ought to have been devoted to the purposes of charity,
education, and religion ; and it was from the extreme difficulty
of the case that they were not instantly dismissed ; and it was
solemnly determined by the 71st section of that Act of Par-
liament, that when the Ist of _August, 1836, arrived, their
powers should for ever cease. I beg leave to read the words
to be found in the Act of Parliament, "that upon the Ist of
August, 1836, arriving, their powers shall immediately there-
upon utterly cease and determine." And then it was pro-
vided that upon that occasion their powers ceasing and deter-
mining, the administration of those charities should be in the
Lord Chancellor.

The Legislature then knew all the difficulties which the
Noble and Learned Lord who has addressed the Commons has
pointed out, of the petition to the Lord Chancellor, the role-
reach to the Master, the Master's report, the exceptions to
the Master's report, and all those steps which have been re-
ferred to, and the various delays that might arise ; but all
those difficulties were considered light as air compared with
the evil of continuing one day longer than the Ist of August
1836, these charitable funds in the hands of persons who had
so miaconducted themselves. My Lords, in performance of
this solemn compact, the Commons perceive that unless there
should be some legislation in the meantime, it is of the last
importance those persons should be divested of the powers
they have so much abused.

Sly Lords, the Commons did their best to provide for the
difficulty that had occurred ; they sent up a Bill to the House of
Lords, which they thought would probably meet with your
Lordships'approbation ; that Bill your Lordships have in your
wisdom rejected ; and now the only alternative is that we
should perform the compact entered into by the Municipal Cor-
porations Act, or continue those trustees in office, I must say
for an indefinite time, for there is little prospect that in an-
other session we should be more successful than in the present
session of Parliament in providing for the administration of
those funds.

I trust be;*b leave most respectfully to point out to ye,ur
Lordships that in the mode in which you have framed this
clause your own object will not be effected, and that much
litigation and many more evils would be experienced than
those which the Noble and Learned Lord has pointed cut as
likely to arise from the necessity of applying to the Court of
Chancery. We have now reached the 11th of August, 1836.
By the clause now under consideration your Lordships in-
tend to enact that these charitable trustees shall be continued.
I will read the words of clause (L), " that the said here-
ditaments, sums of money, chattels, securities for monies,
and other personal estates, shall continue in the persons who
at the time of the passing of this Act, shall be seised or pos-
sessed thereof, as such trustees, and in the trustee or trustees
appointed to supply any vacancy by the Lord High Chancel-
lor or Lords Commissioners of the Great Seal for the time
being, in the manner provided by the said Act for regulating
corporations." . _

Your Lordships propose that those hereditaments and sums
of money shall continue in the trustees who are seised of them
at the time when the Act passes. My Lords, when the Act
passes, who will be seised,a them ? Not the individuals in
whom your Lordships propose to continue those powers.
They were Audi officio when the Ist of August arrived; they
have now no estate ; they hale now no power as trustees ;
they are mere strangers ; they have no more interest in any
of those funds than any individual who may be present in this
assembly. If your Lordships, therefore, were to insist upon
this Clause, the consequence would be that you would defeat,
as it appears to me, the object.you have in view, because, sub-
ject to a Clause which I will by and by use the freedom of
pointing out to your Lordships, you would rest this power in
whom ? I say, in the members of the town councils of the
present corporations. Your Lordships are well aware that,
although we bear a great deal of old corporations and new
corporations, they are one—they are identical; the new cor-