The Sun.
London, England, 1813-11-11 00:00:00

HOUSE oP c(tyllic*S.

. .
Several private Petitions wereptesented by Mr. lITLEr An-,
DINCITON, Mr. BRAtin, and &Abe& Menkbet3, . .
An Account of all outstanding E.s;,clsequer Bilk wls moved
foi• nnil ordered. ,
Mr.: Alain atNOT presented the General Estimates NMI ,
Poperi. which were moved ft.r retie 'day.
Lord CA3Ttlate.tou brought up the Supplementary 'Pretties,
of Subsidy, &.e. trith Ritstia and Prussia.
The CU:INC:ULM& of the ExcItEUtIF,P. said a few words re-
lative to the continuance a OM Locul Token thil•

, • COMMITT4E OF SUPPLY. •
After a few observations from Mr. W. Keene.,
the Chnneellor of the Exchequer, anaLout Custtcy
1.004,
Mr. W. DLTNP/0 rose,, .to more for the number

of seamen for the ensuing year. lie obv,rved,
that the naval expences had exceeded in two
branches--that of victualling, and that of wear
and tear, which last was imputable to the extend-
ed nature of the r•erv'ice on LViliCh Old' navy had,
been been engaged. He moved, that 140,00
tieMICTI be employed for the service of the eniuing
year, and 31,000 marines, •
Mr. A. BARING conaldering the.nnmei hut,

he believed necessary expenees, whivh the State
.of affairs imposed on the country, was surpelsed
that ,no relief-was t,o•be a a fforded, • fr,,,u the nval:
service ;, but. that On the contrary, there was art
.excess in th,at dUpartMellt. with .regret
that he found this tuotipn Madera so very early ,a
periwi al tire,session, for the service of ,1514,4,0„
‘votiW pot prejudge on the • necessity pt.
vo"te, ;
,nt;t in the present unsettled state of afftlirs*,
he could scenonecessit.y.for urging it immediately, •
J.Jooking at the map of Europe, considering,
what our navy had nt present to. do, be could
.not conceive the necessity for so large an armt.•
meat. " In France, he observed that“according tc
peetsure-r4„ uiritiormAmeau„.•,,oittak...
,public expenditure NV;",ll,:' so proportioned as to as-
sist the necessary, demands incurred by others
which were of a more exigent nature : whrfeFtY
the continued to keep up full charges branches,
as it appeared to him, unnecessarily, 'For ypart
past, we had had nothing like a formidable enemy
at seas; and at the period of the battle of Trafalgar
we had 10,00/ seamen less than now. We bad a,
few years' ago all .else ports of the Peninsula
against us, and we had the Baltic to guard,
sides our own operations against enemies colonies.
There was now a considerrablc prospect of our
clearing the ports of Holland.. He; would lent Lire
to say, that there was no num, with tolerable in-
formation, who .followed up the conduct of our
naval Athninistration for the last year, bait fauSt•
be surprised at the little that had been dont, &Sec,.
Wally on the North Aanerican Coast. On that
. subject, be should not.then miter particularly ;„- but
judging front the use made ••ol; our.great navy last
year, he saw no reason • for giving to the Athuir
ratty such great Means. American 'frigates
been suffered to go out of, and to come into, their
own ports with ease. At 'terse titne,, we had no
less than 30 or 40 sail of, vessels collected in the
Chesapeake ; ai harbour, which those who knew
it, knew the practicability of, blockading. These
30 or 40 ships Were kept there .;the ease lves;.
or rather lowering the character of the Britislt.
navy, burning- Iwases and sheds., and doing, poli-
tically, mech. injuilr. A third part of the force,
properly, applied, might have been sufficient •to
blockade, the' American ports. He next adverted
to our little.naval war on the- Lakes-, and absetv-
ed, that the contest in that part. of America was,
eise7entti tallilaY t: am
'cal ninnyal
excellenttvl)i those
ot! l e ris4 leadkc 3
beitl e be-
p-
pointed to commands in that war t but yet he be
lieved the tact to be, that we were driven from
Lake Erie, and were not in a eominandiag sitn4--
tion on 'Lake Ontario. The gallant Officer, Sir
James Yea, had not been furnished with a forms.
such as, he should suppose, he would have
desired. He should lay no farther stress car, theses
points at present, but wished to lay them bilore
the consideration of-the Hottse,

Itir. r. DUNDAS thougkt that it' .vronld At*
been, more becoming 'in the Hon. Gentleman to
mite abstained troin thesci remarks, and to have
deferred this preface of disgraae tilt hebad thought
proper to take aimore regularvotice of the sUb.
jeer. He, for one, wonld answer, that whenever
a motion triS brought 'forward, he should be abide
to prove- that the conchtet of the Admiralty had
been neither aegligent not disgraceful. the
trial). Was made char, it would not be the asses-
Lions, of the Hon. :Nlernber, however relketahltit
be might be, that would criminate the con-11441 of
our naval affairs. He had Netter have spared shut
part of his observations, au that occasion'. which
tended to make au unjust and premature 'tures.
shin on the mind of the tloase, if this motion
had not now been made, it w matt indeed hart:
been negligence tar it hakbecn made exactly irs
the nsuat way, and et the wank time ot the Sei.
stow. With opal happiness had he asked, why.

in our present prospects, should .140',0D0, men
in this he, in fact; answered
himself.; xt hat hail produced all our safety,
t bad scaled up the ports of 'the enemy, but
our ;.4 cut naval force ? Was the time so ti,.. rtainlv,
al rived that WC wee e so secure of. peace, that.
v-e should he ilvluced to dishand a large propor-
tion of our. navy ? What better aid could France
%visit for Tb what hot ourbavy did we owe our:
security ? Whatever was taited noose of
Commons could dist:thin( the. navy. according_to
its view of public services, when they-pleased.
Who now vounselled the wisest,—the Hon. 'Arent;
her who said, " Let down your nary;'' or him-
self, who Keep it up ?" By recent aCCOunts-
there *ere 25 or 26 sail of the line at Toulon, 27
ts,.ilot the line in the. Scheldt, besides Lie fleets at
Blest, Cherbourg, iir the Texel, and in the Adri-
aiie. The Hon. Member, as a great merchant,
. would he among the first to cry out for our coin-
Metre, if 'we lowered our and exposed our
trade. In such an event, would not the Toulon
'arid Brestileets, tempted by 'the tit:Of/wards of
opraraffie, come out of port ? Of all times this
seemed the very worst for reducing this main arm
of cur strength. ,
• 'Lord ./CASTLF.RI:AftIf that whatever pro-
spects might open favourable to retrenchments in
our necessarily great public expenditure, the
House, might he: assured, would be teadily em-
br.c7ed by dOvernment, Iti no. preceding year
) fri, !':es -attending,tlie due distribution
of out; naval forces hten greater than during the
last year. If we lind.nochad the assistanoe of the
fleet, he did hot believe that we could have
made it effectual for all [imposes. That we hail no
formidable enemy actually at sea, was among the
. number of theexisting; difficulties. The House and
the country might to know, that notwithstand-
ing the immense pressure that had been made
on the enemy's naval resources- for many pre-
ceding years, yet he had not relaxed his mari-
time effor:s ; and that he haul still fleets in most
'of his leading arsenals, ready for sea. Ile had, in
fart, be!ni ecturtilating his marine forces by ra-
pid strides. The deinaml on the American station'
had been prodigious. The Baltic had also been a
great pressure on Our means, "in consequence of
irs vicinity to military operations We might,
• but tor nor Naval exertions there, have seen, not
a part, but The whole of the army of Denmark'Put
in !notion, under the direction of France. lie
trusted that the House would feel that Govern-
nient would, not unnecessarily keep tip our naval
'forces : if they sliewied such a disposition, it was
in the power of the House, at all times, to recall
Ahem to,their duty.- The nunthel's of seamen !vimw
actually serving approached, very closely to the,
vote now prof:ised, which was precisely the sante
as the last, and brought forward at the same pc-
.:riod of the Session.' :Vlieriever, under all the eir-
. r etanstatices which engaged Us with our Allies, or
~etincerneil our .operatiols in the •Peninsula, re-
trenciumeots would be justifiable, he trusted that
would vigilantly turn their attention to
every practicable and wise means of reduction.
But .Parlininelit would recollect, that it was out'
.duty to proceed with prudence, and foresight. If
we suddenly disbanded, it would not be so, easy a'
task, oir nut emergency, to recall our seamen to
- the, naval force of the country: He was not now
'que prejudging retrenchments ; but merely voting
'for the usual provision.
ttic Lxuti.P.Q.UER would say
'a single word ou the sohjee of reduction, con-
sequence. of the accommodation of the different
branches or his expenditure by the enemy. He
tholight the lion. M.enther had been better inform-
ed respecting the state of.the French hitanceS than
have made this assertion. Ills opinions might
be corrected, by adverting to the pttblished state-
'items of them. At was quite clear, itt.this view,
that' Fiance had not lost 'sight of lier.nimine,
'nor hail neglected any meant of supporting
-it. All that -we now proposed, was .to main-
tain our marine at the •saine rate as before„
should it he necessary. At any time previous
, to the Appropriation Act,- the House bad it in its.
power to maice such alterations as it saw fitting.
Mr., A. Bartmo said, with respect to the point .
of time, that -the House very seldom sat so ' early
as they did this Session. The motion Might have
been postponed till the matter was better under,-
stood, The thirty or forty vessels in the Chesa-
peake, which he had alluded to, had
.disgraced
.their country by their ineffectiveness, or rather
by their injurious mode of warfare. All the 'ar-
guments used on the opposite side would apply as
.well to the extension of our naval force to 150,000
seamen. Surely the fleet in the Scheldt could
'not be Ina state of suet) perfect readiness for sea
ttlltl hedoubzed mach Whether that at Toulon was.
'The questiOn with him'was, whether, at. present,
-greater 'exertions could not be made by land,
through retreochtnents at sea. Next year he
thought that France could not be able tO do
much at sea; all her resources would, be wonted
to meet her dangers' by land. Our means should
be directed to great emir, and not frittered away.
Mr. CROKIiii ,tose, and stated, that not long
ago the French fleet in 'the mouth of the Scheldt
atootioti to • 115 of, the line, in all appearance
ready for service. In the Tv eel thvre were tint
-less than five,lometimes ten in the alone comlition
of preparation.. Although some might believe
'that the enemy. had eithdrawn many of' Itis•sea-
mei, Iron) his fleets, - yet it would have berm an
impairer coatidence on the part of Government,
on a public rumour, so to !educe Our armaments
as to permit them, so near to our own coasts, to
move about insufficiently watched and guarded.
.721.1 e lion. Member's opinion cooeerning the Ton-
' lon fleet was monstrous ; since it was but recently
that ,Government was accused of neglect in that
alutirter----of htt‘ing a naval force inferior to, that
of the enemy ; particularly on the occasion of
L'Emerian's once coming out to sea, and return- '
ing to harbour. . Did not an enemy's lonic of fit)
sail of the lbw require watching ?.lithe Adthiralty
were the victims of; those illusions of the Hon. -
Meinhcr, they would indeed beeoine liable to re-
'roach. AS tit, the time at which the motion Was
now made, it became necessary to .make it in the
last month of the last year's expeoditure; It, was
necessary that our .brave seamen should be
paid and fed ; but then it might be said, " put -it
off till Jantuiry." Why, the necessity of this mo-
tion was among the Other important.reatiollS, why
Parliament was ai:46lblod sus seek this icasuir

mot fol tut was now intended or propelsed,
was to 'vote one 'half 6f 'What *.va3
All the civil part of the tinval expenditure, new:
buildings, reire!'es,. and other items, on which a
difference of opinion might fairly. arise, were
kept back for the period of the Ordinary Esti-.
mates three or four. months hence. Government
might It.tve adopted another mode, by proposing
a rtue-able snui, for a few months' expenditure ;
but they-had not done qo, because they must then
have fOrced upon the House,-at that early period;
the whole affairs of the Naval Department,- to be
printed and voted. It was thought much prefe-
rable to' ask now for no more than what appeared
necessary for the payment of our seamen, anti the
expenses of oar ships actually at
_sea ; leaving all
the rest for future consideration and. disettSsiOn.
Whenever the !lon. Member should think proper
to move arty propositions on this. subject, he
should have,
,as far as his (Mr. C.'s) humble, abi-
lines went, every assistance in his power to at'-,
ford him; being confident I 'Ant an inquiry wouldre-
(found to the credit Oldie Admiralty, and prove the
Hon, Member trompletely init,informed. Ile tatilcl
not tell why Sir Warren 11;1(130 pennants in the
Chesapeake, but the Unit. Member might he a
better Admiral than Sir .1. Warren. q'hat,Admi-.
rid was responsible for his conduct. Lie lied (Nine
what he thought proper in his situation. Willi
120 pennants, he might have had 3U.in- the Che-
•sapeake : he did not know he had, and he thotight
he had not. He wished to pat ill his 'Plea,
for those ,brave officers and men wit() had been
blockading that coast during dreadful weather,
that their characters migl;t not be hinted away.
lie whited the oilicers had not been alluded
The Naval Administration would be -fotind per-
fectly ready to defend itself; and as to the offi-
cers, he hoped the House and the country hittl
full confidence in them ; tor what h4d they not to
acknowledge, or to expect, fro,n the tried skill,
COUrage..and valour, of British seamen.?
Mr, A. liAatso said, • that the enemy's fleets
might ant require to be watched by a fleet equal to their'S3
hut ourammevons force on the. American coast. had done no-
thing essential, and the service appeared to have heen it
neglected.. That trio his;decidt d opitti-ot front all he heard
respecting it, which had been from many qUarters. 'Whoever
was in fault, the navy had ip..en neglected. It did not follow'
front what ix said, tht he (Jlr. B.) was a good Artinirak All
he pretended to say was, that the force employed, hail been
very ill employed far its objects.
Lord CAwitam MAO n said, that this question
could only lw discussed fairly at a future time. It should not.
have heen•opened up • nry.v. Whatever might he thought of
particulars, the groaral exertiOns had enabled us to contend
in America without tiny prejudice to operatimm in Europa..
,The Iteiolution, and the other u4tttll o..es for I lte respectiv6
sums, were put and carried; Report to hp received to-mor-
row.

iIEISTON.• • . .
Mr. TIy4KES brought up-'a Bill for securing the freedotn of
election in this linrotig!), whirl.' was read the first time, rind
ordered to he read the beCond..iiin.... on Wedito;'!:‘,Y, alter sonic
observations irons Mr. A;WAN Wrai:t it., hurrying the measure.
•
Mr. BANKES 13T011rilt up, a Lill for continuing the Act re-.
specting (irants of
,ounces. Read the first time, and.ordered
to be read asecond time on Weduesdil.—Adjourneci. •1.