The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

LAND.

Major BLACKALL then rote to move the following
resolution :—" That the peculiar circumstances of Ireland,
consequent upon four successive years of distress, require
the immediate adoption of such measures as may assist and
encourage the individual exertion of the owners and
occupiers of Irish property, and promote indnstry by giv-
ing remunerative employment; and that all grants or
loans of money to particular districts should be applied,
as fur as possible, to such purposes as may conduce to the
eventual improvement of those districts, and enable them
to support themselves from their ordinary resources."
He begged to say that since this resolution had first ap-
peared on the books of the House several measures had
been brought forward by the Government relative to Ire-
land, of which he did not underrate the importance. He
was also anxious to take this opportunity of saying, that
so far as he was personally concerned, he had always
found on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
every wish to forward those reasonable and rational
applications for loans and grants which had been made
by Irish Members, and that he had been guided in his
refusal more by the tone and temper of the House than
by any wishes of his own.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Gallant Member was proceeding to notice the va-
rious measures which had been adopted for the pur-
pose of meeting the recent famine in Ireland, and to
point out the errors which had been committed, when
An Hon. i‘iEMBER moved that the House be counted;
and, forty Members not having been found to be present,
the House adjourned at Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 8.
Tho LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Petitions against the repeal of the navigation laws
were presented by the Duke of Northumberland, the
Earl of Harrowby, and Earl Talbot.

AGRIbULT iThSTRESS.
At the request of Earl GREY,
The Duke of RICHMOND postponed his motion on
the subject of agricultural distress from Friday to Mon-
day next, as the second reading of the Rate in Aid Bill
was fixed for Friday.
NAVIGATION LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Earl of CARLISLE then rose to resume the ad-
journed debate on the Bill for the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws. He felt that he was labouring under great
disadvantage in having to follow the eloquent speech of
the Noble and Learned Lord last evening, which was
so calculated to excite those prejudices by which
their Lordships were supposed to be actuated. He could
not suppose that their Lordships were actuated by per-
sonal motives, and ha granted to his opponents that
which he claimed for his friends and himself', viz., the
being actuated solely by what they considered would be
for the benefit of the country. It he believed the mea-
sure would be prejudicial to the maritime or naval in-
terests of the ceentry, he should say that he
ought to encounter, not only defeat, but ignominy
for supporting it. He believed such an idea to be utterly
groundless. Ho supported it because he believed it
would promote the progress cf the commerce of the
coutitzy. That commerce was the principal support of the
mercantile marine, and that marine was the main support
of the naval supremacy of the country. He agreed with
the Noble Earl in denouncing those who would sacrifice
everything for wealth, but the wealth which they sought
to promote was only the proper reward of honest in-
dustry, and would tend to promote the peaceful inter-
course of nations.—(Hear, hear.) He would not go into
the history of the navigation-laws, nor into that whiCh

was more properly the affair of his Noble Friend the
Secretary for the Colonies—the bearing of these
laws upon the colonial interests of the country.
He could not look upon a navigation code with the reve-
rential ewe which had been professed by many. At first
it had been fruitful only in disasters. Its enactment had
been dictated by jealousy of the Dutch, and its
first fruits were two sanguinary wars with Hol-
land. What had been its effect ? Restriction
had necessitated restriction, until those restrictions
had been extended to Ireland and the colonies, and had
goaded Irelsnd into discontent, and America into a re-
volt and war, which ended in our being forced to
acknowledge her independence. This code had
thus founded our great rival, and these
ought to be aet down as off-sets when
any panygeric was made upon our navigation code.
He was, however, inclined to let bygones be bygones,
and to consider whether, in the circumstances of the
present times, in our present maturity of wealth and
power, it was worthy of this country to maintain those
restrictions which in former times she had thought
necessary. If the navigation code was the wisest
that the wit of man could have devised at
the time of the enactment, they should consider
whether it was profitable now to maintain then"
The battle of Trafalgar effectually cleared the ocean for
our ships more thbn any maritime rode could have done.
It was long after the peace before continental nations
could create a marine, but there was a growing spirit
of resistance to monopoly of trade on th 3 part of any
Power. That resistance had been met by the recipro-
city treaties. That spirit was now reviving. It should
be remembered that Russia and several other nations
could, by giving twelve months' notice, put an end
to those treaties. The Noble Earl had said that, if
the affairs of this country were properly administered,
there would be no fear of such improper threats. Would
the Noble Earl consider that we should be justified in
treating such a motion as an improper threat ? It
was said last night that Russia had no mercantile trade.
He had, however, a statement of the tonnage of vessels
belonging to Russia, Belgium, France, Spain, and Por-
tugal, which during the last three years had entered the
ports of the United Kingdom from 1846 to 1848, exclu-
sive of vessels in ballast ; and in those three years, of
all the countries he had enumerated, with the exception
of France (and that only exceeding in one year), the
largest number of tons was to be set down to Russia. In
1848, the tonnage of foreign vessels entering British
ports was, Swedes, 51,000 tons ; Dutch, 76,000 ; Bel-
gians, 33,000 tons; Spanish, 14,000 tons; Portuguese,
7,000 tons ; Russian, 76,180 tons. The Noble Earl
said these matters could be arranged by preliminary
treaties ; but he was calling the attention of their Lord-
ships to the state of the country if foreign Powers refused
to renew their treaties on the same favourable terms,
and we lost our present direct trade with them.
The Noble Marquis the President of the Council stated
that if foreign Powers forbade us to engage in their
direct and carrying trade they could throw more
than 200,000 tons of British shipping out of employ'
ment. He found that during the last year there entered
foreign ports 233,000 tons of British shipping, and
cleared out 230,000 tons. That was the trade carried en
by British shipping from one foreign port to another.--'
(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord had made
a very strong attack on the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne)
ter saying that the whole of this trade was liable to be,
cut off; he had stated that it was a gross calumny, and
attempted to account for the number of tons of British
shipping engaged in foreign trade by saying that some
of the vessels made thirty-two voyages in the course of
the year. He had, however, made a mistake in his cal-
culations, and mixed up the trade of steam-vessels bee
tween Belgium, Holland, and France. Of the 200,000
tons of shipping to which the Noble Marquis alluded
being employed in foreign trade, 12,000 tons belonged to
Hamburgh, and he had a return by which it appeared
that instead of these 12,000 including steamers, they be-
longed to 62 ships, every name of which he had set down,
and he could tell the Noble and Learned Lord that
steamers which passed directly to and fro between all
foreign ports were scarcely ever employed in their di-
rect trade.—(.Hear, hear.) If by a continuance of re-
strictive policy we were to forfeit our present indirect
trade, he felt petsuaded that the importunities and con-
plaints of our traders and merchants, our forgers of iron,
and our smelters of copper, would be pitched to a far
worse note of distress than they were now from the
supposition that they should be prejudicially affected by
the present proposal. He bad called the attention of their
Lordships to the risk we should run by continuing the
present state of things. The evils and inconveniences
had been abundasitly illustrated in the most conclusive
and powerful manner by the daily recurring experience
of those who were most concerned in those matters-
He had gleaned st few matters of fact as they were cone
stantly taking place under the operation of the present
navigation-laws, and he thought they would be found to
be of a most contslusive character. Ho would begin With
the article of cots on:—
" That cotton Tvhich was brought to Havre on English
account in a foreign ship, which could not be disposed
of in France at nay price, and which could have been
sold at Liverpool to advantage, might not be conveyed
from Havre to L'arerpool in a British ship, but might bs..l
reconveyed to the United States in in a foreign ship, ea
a
thence brought to Liverpool in an American ship, thin;
depriving the British ship of employment, and depriving
the English mar ket of cotton when there was a distress'
ing deficiency in the supply.
" That sugar could only be sent from Guiana a
nd
other colonies to England at a freight of 3/. 10s. or 41. is_
ton, while siave-tarown sugar (which we are accused of
unduly
])apish ships encouraging) could 10) s. a ton,
b
sentthus ciisco
fromSutr.agiCrngoiX In
the
supply of colonic 1 and free-labour sugar; that no British
ships could be pa ocured to export free-labour sugar from
I3e tavia.

" That copper is now produced in great and growing
abundance in Au sualia and cannot find a sufficient nun"
her of British shi; is to convey it to this country, and the
high freights, wi iich are the necessary consequence+
diminish the profit a of what is sent, which has led to tbd
project of establishing smelting works in Australi
instead of emplo.ying, first, the shipping, and, next'
the manufactures of England for that purpose: that,
again, as Germ an ships which now carry OIL
emigrants to Australia may not carry back copper ore,
or meat, or any (,t the produce of Australia, as rota°
cargoes to this co untry, or to their own country, with
view to exportath. n to this country; if the market at
home should not be remunerative, therefore, at 11103:
burgh they have a lso established smelting works in then•
own defence, age in creating a gratuitous competition
with the manufacturers of this country.
" That wrought hides may be imported into this
country in any qu entity from France or other countries+
but it there was ail), superfluity of raw hides they might
not, under the ruivigation-laws, be brought to 01'
country for the an ificers of this country to manufacture,
unless they were a eut all the way back to America.
" That cochineftl, another article of most rapid in.
crease from the Canaries, has its chief depot at Cadis+
whence it is take u in French ships to Marseilles, but nt
cannot be taken, under the navigation-laws, even i?
English ships to I ngland, because the Canaries are su"
fered to be geogri iphically in Africa, and therefore the
produce must be imported in English ships from the
Canaries themselires, where there is noi; independe,e,,"
inducement for English ships to go, while at Co'
there is always a multitude of British ships for the
purpose of bringing wine, but which are not suffered
to bring this valuable and much-wanted dye.
" That Madeira wines may not be brought from Lis-
bon even in English ships, where they would always be
in great abundance. Nor the gums of Senegal iron!,
their chief depot at Marseilles. Nor the dye weeds of
West Africa, from a large depot of them at Marseille&
There may be a surplus supply of all these articles in
these ports; there may be a deficient supply at home; silo
ships loading with sherry and claret may be full of CO"
venient chasms absolutely yawning for these HO
assortments, but the prohibition is complete and iii
exorable.

" That nitrate of soda, more highly thought of As s!
manure, has sold for from 21. 6s. 6d. less at Hamburg,'
than here, but fur the same sum could not be brough/
even here.

.. That a parcel of Alpaca thread was actually the
subject of this venerable transaction. It arrived I°
Hamburgh (a great depot for merchandise: from south
America), from Peru, was purchased, sent to Hull, re'
fused admittance, shipped thence to New York, rc
esported to Liverpool, and sent into the manufactartog
district?, where it arrived too late for the demands of the
market.

" That Java indigo, which was much wanted for aottie
of the more delicate manufactures of this country, Asti`
purchased iu holland, but in order to secure its entry
into this country, it was shipped in a Dutch vessel Sci
the United Sates, and thence exported to this country'
" That palm oil, Manilla hemp, logwood, have all bees
waiting for shipment in the United States, and because
no British vessels were to be had they all failed of being
sent.
o That it is stated by a Ilamburgh resident that the
operation of the navigation-laws with respect to the
supply of Peruvian wools to this country, such as sre
brought to the continent of Europe first, is unquestioty
ably unfavourable to British manufacturers, because tile;
German manufacturer is purchasing that article now 1.1
a less price than the manufacturers can purchase it ats
Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the consequence must be
that the German manufacturer can afford to sell his cloth
at a less price than the English.
" That at Bombay and CalCutta though there is con'
stant uncertainty whether there will be ships to cards
produce to England, and the freight has been as high
tsci
eight guineas a ton, and though the same ports are fil'e
with ships not only seaworthy, but efficiently e°133.,i
mended, and which would bring home that produce '
they were suffered to do so, yet because of that prepo2;
terous disability which attaches to ships manned
Lascar sailors, they are not suffered to do so.
,„ost
" That with respect to the noblest because the
useful article of interchange, I mean the bread we u;„
upon, it is stated by the Board of Trade at Toren'ef;
September, 1846, that large quantities of produce rota
forwarded to Montreal from the interior, where it j 311,5
been produced during the preceding winter, at price
severely enhanced by the exaggerated reports widut
reached Canada of the scarcity of bread-stuffs througheio
Europe. On arrival it was found impossible to el:s
shipment for it at less than 6e. a barrel, and the helr'sert,
were threatened with insolvency the
alike from its siliPi
or retention, and perceiving most distinctly that the
chief cause of their difficulties was to be found in
present navigation-laws of your Majesty's kiegd?°2:o
feeling of deep dissatisfaction therewith has arisen in
minds of your Majesty's Canadian subjects?'
arising
What did these numerous cases which were daily ex.,
prove but that in countless ways—and we could
,eat
track them through all their ramitications—our 11:1613,
tion-laws did impede, obstruct, or, if he might sof our
more homely epithet, bother all the operations it
trade in every part of the globe?—(Cheere;),
seemed to be an ingenious attempt to make every
sceiption of goods pay double freight, and o
der ill-feeling and animosity between nations. (el-
we
hear.) In our anxiety to secure the long voyage

°ften deprived ourselves of a number of short voyages.
In our anxiety to grasp everything for ourselves we
tilde (very one else, including our own colonies, so un-
comfortable as to drive them to the necessity of adopting
measures of counteraction and resistance against us, if
We did not pave the way to more overt acts of hostility;
and instead of appropriating to ourselves the resources
°I all other countries, we created a host of artificial diffi-
culties, and succeeded in rendering the ocean more hos-
tile even than the ancient poets had described it.—
(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the navigation-laws
succeeded in making the mercantile marine a nursery
for the royal navy, and that the modern system of steam
navigation required a larger number of hands to be
trained. But he thought it would be found that the
navy did not draw so large a proportion of the hands it
employed from the mercantile marine. If, however,
they were to rely en deriving considerable assistance
from the mercantile navy, he thought there was little
fear of the result when ho found the increase of British
seamen from 1823 to 1847 had been from 165,000 to
252,000—(11ear, hear)—and when he found that, in
British ships, the tonnage had increased 10 per cent.
With these facts before him, he could not but entertain
a very confident hope that we might still tely upon ob-
taining an adequate number of men from our mercantile
marine towarde the manning of our national navy. It
lad been said that there was a disposition in the mer-
cantile marine not to take an adequate number ot ap-
prentices; but so far from that being the case, there were
10,000 more apprentices in the merman's) navy than
were required by the provisions of the navigation-laws.
—(Hear, hear.) Then it was contended that it was im-
possible for British shipowners to compete with foreign
shipowners; but upon many grounds he must dispute
that proposition. If they considered the strength and
durability of British ships as compared either with the
-well-constructed ships of the United States, or the more
cheap, but less enduring ships of Russia and the powers
of northern Europe, he thought, whichever side of the
comparison they took, they would find that the British
shipowner did not suffer any material disadvantage, not-
withstanding the greater expense of construction.
Several gentlemen who had been examined before the
Committee had proved this fact.
Mr. Winter, of America, was asked, In what re-
spect should you consider that a ship can be built
cheaper in America than in England; where would be
the saving ?—The only item in shipbeilding which, to
any knowledge, is cheaper in America than in England,
is wood, and this, for ships built in New York, has to
bear heavy transportation, much of the timber being
brought by sea from Virginia and Florida, and the plank
from Lake Erie, a distance of 500 miles. The iron is
imported from England, and pays a duty of 305., besides
~Ethe expense of importation. Copper is also much higher
4nan in England, and wages are nearly double.'
" Mr. Graham, the secretary of Lloyd's, says—' The
first-class British ships are the best ships in the world,
And are superior to American ships.'
" Captain Briggs states that such ships as he has
spoken of, costing 201. per ton, Would not stand A 1
for twelve years. The Americans have no ships that
Would stand A 1 for twelve years in this country.'
" ' A ship could be built in England quite as cheaply
Its in America, and an English ship always stands longer
than an American ship.'
" ' You can build a twelve years' ship in England, and
fit her entirely for sea, as cheaply as you can build an
.American ship of ten years.' "
As to the North, it was said—
" A Hamburgh vessel, from 200 to 500 tons, iron-
fastened and coppered, costs, ready for sea, about 11 /. a
ton. She stands seven years A 1, and no more. The
English ship costs 201. a ton, stands twelve years A 1,
and four years more, making sixteen years. The Ham-
burgh ship, therefore, stands nine years less on the first
letter than the English ship. We deduct, as before, 11.
a ton for each year, and we find the English and the
Hamburgh ship are the same cost. We have yet to con-
sider-the expense of navigation.
" It is, therefore, fair to assume that the English ves-
ael, as far as regards its durability, is worth, as com-
pared with the colonial vessel, in the proportion of 22
to 7."
" If any oter proof be wanted that foreigners have
no advantage over England in the build and navigation
.of ships, we have it in the fact that when the shipping
trade is depressed, and freights non-remunerative, the
British shipowner is not 'the first' to let his ship lie
rotting in harbour, and the sailors fill the workhouse.
The contrary is notoriously the fact. In those years
of depression the foreigner is the first to lay up his
vessel."
"The Parliamentary returns prove, beyond all manner
of doubt, that on every recurrence of distress in:shipping
there is a great comparative decrease of foreign and a
corresponding increase of British vessels employed in the
foreign trade."
Did not this stand to reason, in addition to the assertions
of competent well-informed men, when they considered
the resources from which shipbuilding was supplied ?
We furnished the iron, we manufactured their chains,
we furnished their sheet copper, their sails and cordage,
upon all of which articles they had to pay duty, while
we only had to pay duty on our timber; and it was stated
by competent witnesses that the British shipbuilder had
only to pay duty at the rate of 3s. 6d. per ton, having
too at our command the best timber in the world. The
attention of their Lordships had been called to the in-
crease of steam navigation, and he would ask what
nation could fit out steam-vessels as we could ? It
might be confidently asserted that in no class of
shipping, and least of all in steam and iron built
vessels, could this country be said to stand on a dis-
advantage with any other country in the world.—(hear,
hear.) And when we had swept away the last imperfect
remains of protection which we still retained under the
navigation-laws, we should be in a still prouder posi-
tion. And he could not but think that his Noble Friend
the President of the Council had met with unjust
censure, when he was reproached for having spoken
of the existing navigation•laws as shreds and patches.
Why, what were the terms in which the former advo-
cates of monopoly—the most obstinate adherents to the
navigation-laws—spoke of those laws since the passing
of the reciprocity treaties? Mr. Young said that the
protection was so inadequate where these treaties of re-
ciprocity existed that it could scarcely be called protec-
tion at all.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not without hope
that the final and complete removal of monopoly in these
matters would have the effect which almost invariably
attended similar branches of industry and emplcyment
—that it would stimulate exertion and lead the way to
improved methods and more economical modes ot
management. He disclaimed the invidious task of exa-
mining the short-comings and defects of our mercantile
marine; but it would be unwise to ptide ourselves too
much on its efficiency and perfection, because he feared
there was much connected with the seamen, the sani-
tary state of the ships, and the qualification of masters,
that loudly called for amendment. The Noble and
Learned Lord had alluded to a work entitled " Two
Years before the Mast," and he had heard opinions
expressed on this subject by the author of that
work. Ile had not long made his acquaintance with-
out knowing that any opinion which he received from
him, if liable to mistake, would have been sincere and
straightforward. Mr. Dana had had long experience in
observing vessels in the Bay of St. Francisco, and he
said he thought the British sailor was a more thorough
sea creature than their own American seamen—that in
, fact he was the best seaman in the world; but with re-
spect to the masters of merchant vessels, he thought the
American captains were better educated, more generally
accomplished, and better instructed in those specific
branches of acquirement most necessary for them.—
(Hear, hear.) The American ships compete with the
cheapest built ships in the world; we could, with regard
to strength and durability, build ships as cheap, and beat
the American ships in the ports of the United States.
That country, which could always present the largest
number of ships, and offer the lowest rate of freight,
must in the end secure the great proportion of the carry-
ing trade of the world.—(Hear, hear.) This was what
gave their envied ascendancy to the Dutch. Low rates
of freight would do for the traffic of the ships of the
sea what low rates of travelling did on shore, they would
create traffic where none appeared to have been wanting
before they would suggest wants which had
not
been felt before; and not content with suggesting,
they
would satisfy them.—(Hear, hear.) So that, consider-
ing that the repeal of the navigation laws would confer
advantages on the foreigners, it they liked—assuming
that in some particular points we should be placed on
terms of disadvantage with reference to them, and that
sharp competition would ensue, yet, believing in the im-
pulse always given to trade when restraint was lessened,
and believing in the rebounding elasticity of British trade
to meet all rivalry, he could not doubt that we should
secure by far the largest proportion of the mercantile
traffic of the world.—(Cheers.) He could believe that a
system of exclusion and monopoly such as our naviga
tion code might have appeared plausible when onr power
was confined within narrower limits—but now, when
there was no section or region of the world in which we
had not visited the shores and occupied the seas from
the Cape to Oregon, from Newfoundland to New
Zealand, every obstacle, every impediment, was multi.
plied ten-fold with regard to our own shipping, that of
our colonies, and all the countries with which we had any
"mmunication.—(Hear, hear.) By our own prowess,
and enter rise and activity, we had so dotted the globe,
that to interrupt cur traffic between our colonies and the
rest of the world would be to make our legislation
a: n extent which it had never been before, a universal
11134nee--(llear hear.) Ho had endeavoured to lay
the chief stress on the advantages which a relaxation of
the
navigation-laws would confer on our commerce; but
ne w
that as not blind to the colonial part of the question, as
which most immediately pressed on the attention of
the Legislature. The way in which he regarded and
suet, cha the indisposition of the mercantile body to any
°l3servedn,4es as the present was, that he had generally
suits had been men of particular occupations and pur-
an lone- addicted to them, and had acquired
"Y which 0,1"1"11:dge of the intricacies and difficulties
averse to measures
pursuits were surrounded, they were
Pursuits
atitisures which tended to throw open their
to
to retain all ;lithe world, and became strongly disposed
to- ate must
difficulties which they were accustomed
geometry St say that he believed if a royal road to
,WoUld be Mild be discovered, that discovery
fuetance to B°Ppose their by geometricians from a re-
nto.rld.
to all the we" favourite pursuit thrown open
patieet atte Thanking their Lordships for the
he would 0 on with which they had listened to him,
only n Y further remark that whilst he antici-
Vatveidaattliloetreetest benefits from the abolition of the
nations of thele, by facilitating the intercouise of the
"untr • world and by the enrichment of thii
earl Y with
opposite , harmless wealth ; wealth which the Noble
was unob;e__ had last evening- denounced, but a hick
ditell
e•!_ =lleleable when acquired by peaceful modes,
tions'u.lll4 not listen quietly to that Noble Earl's pro-
ot th ' usat the
the navaletla v.
acquirement of wealth by the abolition
pigewatei.On-laws would be attended with injury to
tercets,
mar:if England, with a deterioration of her
je he rine, and with danger to her national in-
options ; if he°^llld bring himself to entertain such
did not on the contrary think that the

very opposite of all these predictions would result
from the measure before the Rollie, he should
be the last man amongst their Lordships to
propose or support it. Ile trusted that he had
placed a just estimate on the naval power of Great
Britain, as well as on her mercantile marine, and that
he was as alive as any of their Lordships to the vast
importance of maintaining in full vigour the national
fleets, which at the moment when " Rule Britannia" had
been sung in the streets of Paris were not likely to be
abandoned to decay. But he did not anticipate any in •
jury to the efficiency of the British navy from the pre-
sent measure. Neither did he apprehend any danger to
the national defences from its becoming law. On the
contrary, it was that, in his opinion, the effect of the
measure would give increased employment to seamen,
and infuse invigoration into the trade, manufactures, and
commerce of Great Britain, that he supported it; and it
was by instituting new rewards for the industry of the
community, and by developing the resources of employ-
ment for shipping, that the best guarantees would be
found for the permanence of the national defences—
defences which had hitherto been sufficient to render
England the mistress of the seas, end by the blessing of
God vvelid long continue to maintain her in that posi-
tion.—(Cheers.)
Earl NELSON could not, help expressing his surprise
that the Noble Marquis who brought the Bill forward
should have looked with disdain on the expression of the
public opinion and at the petitions which had been pre-
sented against the Bill. For his own part he believed
that the opposition shown to the Bill out of doors had
been elicited by a very general apprehension as to its
ell:ets upon the naval power of Great Britain, As to
the retaliatory clauses which the Bill contained, they,
could never be enforced, and the first step after it be-
came law, would be to repeal those causes. He would
now advert to the opinions held by a person whose me-
mory had been brought to their Lordship's recollection
by the Noble Earl opposite, who had connected the
battle of Trafalgar with the cause of the success which
had subsequently to that victory attended the British
mercantile marine. Ile must assert that the distin-
guished man whose name he had the honour to bear,
and whose memory deserved to be revered in that place
--(Hear)—entertained opinions on the subject of the
navigation laws which well merited their Lordships' at-
tention. Although Lord Nelson had been dead many
years his memory was not forgotten, and although the
navigation-laws hod since he lived undergone great
changes, still the principle remained the same as in his
day. He could no: forgot that Lord Nelson disobeyed
orders and subjected himself to trial by court-martial
in his determination to maintain the spirit of the naviga-
tion-laws in the West Indies. He pursued the same line
of policy at Copenhagen, and he had manifested the
deepest anxiety to spare the bloodshed which had oc-
curred at that city, in which he might have succeeded,
could he have got his fleet away in time from Yarmouth
Roads. Lord Nelson would never have been able to
make good the national detences of England in the year
1801 had not the navigation-laws existed ;• for where
could he have found sailors, or %hence would England
have procured her commercial navy, but by means of
these laws? It was all very well to talk of peaceful ar-
bitrations; but, even supposing all the nations of Europe
agreed to resort to that mode of settling disputes, what
security was there that some master spirit should not
rise up and force on a war, and how could the British
nation be safe if she had not a naval force? Before he
sat down he would call upon the Right Rev. Bench
to resist the present Bill, because he saw in it the
sure sources of an increase in the slave-trade. He called
upon such of their Lordships as were free traders, to re-
sist it, because it was an imperfect measure, and must
soon be amended. He called upon all who had the in-
terest of their country at heart to oppose the measure,
and to trust to the experience of the past, rather than
to the vague promises which were founded on imprac-
ticable and unsound theories.

Earl BRUCE said that there never had been a mea-
sure which be had a more perfect conviction was a
right one than the present. If he thought the Bill
would impair the naval efficiency of the United Kingdom,
he would be the last man to support it. It had been ar-
gued by the opponents of the present measure that it
was better to leave things as they were. But he begged
to say, things could not be lett as they were. The
colonies had lost the protection which they formerly
enjoyed, and it was natural for them to seek to indem-
nity themselves by extending their commerce and ship-
ping, and by obtaining fresh outlets for their produc-
tions and industry.

Earl TALBOT said, that in the first place there was
not the slightest necessity for this measure; and, in the
second place, even were it desirable in any point of view,
its effect upon what should be our most cherished inte-
rest would be so deeply injurious that it ought never to
have been entertained by the Legislature. The fact was,
that this measure was nothing more nor less than another
attack upon our best institutions, by that free trade party
who, having got rid of the corn-laws, had determined
" to have a go" at the navigation-laws, which in the first
instance they had pronounced against. He was quite
favourable to reciprocity where reciprocity could he
fairly effected, but he must protest against giving every-
thing and getting nothing in return.
The Earl of WALDEGRAVE next addressed the
House, but in so low a tone of voice that none of his ob-
servations reached the gallery.
The E:1.1 of HARROWBY said that, before ho ad-
dressed their Lordships on the subject before the House,
he wished to say a few words in reference to the obser-
vations of his Noble and Learned Friend respecting an
Hon. Friend of his, a Member of the other House of
Parliament, whose character had been alluded to last
night by his Noble and Learned Friend. The charge
brought against the Hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr.
Cardwell) by his Noble Friend was, that he had acted
inconsi.tently with the pledges ho made to the electors
of Liverpool in voting for the repeal of the navigation-
laws. His Noble and Learned Friend was mistaken in
supposing that any such pledge was made. The Noble
Lord here referred to the circumstances attending the
late election for Liverpool, and quoted some documents
from which it appeared that Mr. Cardwell stated that he
would not vote for any measure which he thought would
injuriously affect the maritime and naval supremacy of
this country, that he would wait for the result of the
Committee which was sitting on the subject of the na-
vigation-laws, and that he should consicter himself per-
fectly free and unfettered as to the course he should
pursue in reference to their repeal. Upon this state of
facts he was sure their Lordships would acquit the
Honourable Gentleman of the charge which his Noble
and Learned Friend brought against him.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to the question before the House, be felt all
the difficulty of engaging their Lordships' attention upon
a subject which bad been already so much discussed.
He did not consider the principle of free trade and the
principle of protection as two absolute principles of right
and wrong—that they were the principles of good and
evil, and were to be applied absolutely without any
regard to other circumstances. He considered that the
principle of protection might be required
.in some cir-
cumstances for a great interest, and in other circum-
stances he thought that the principle of free trade ought
to be applied. And if there was any one subject in
reference to which this distinction should be observed it
was that of the navigation-laws. They never had in
fact rested long on one point with regard to them. They
bad altered them from time to time; but in all these
changes they had stedfastly kept in vi©w the prin-
ciple of reserving to themselves the large basis of a
commercial marine, on which to rest the superstruc-
ture of the naval power of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
The maintenance of their maritime and naval supre
macy was something distinct from and superior to mere
commercial interests, and when they had to decide be-
tween the two it was necessary that the latter should
give way.—(Hear.) His Noble Friends opposite allowed
that this was a just view. The question, therefore, was, '
whether this was a measure dangerous to their naval
supremacy, and whether, without the aid of these laws,
they could maintain that supremacy. A great quantity
of statistics had been brought forward to show that the
repeal of the navigation-laws would not affect their
supremacy at sea, rut the way in which these sta-
tistics had been prepared tended rather to obscure
than to throw light on the question at issue.
The statistics to which he referred had been got up by
a gentleman connected with the Board of Trade, with
whom he was on terms of private intercourse, but of
whose returns on this subject a sense of public duty
compelled him to say what ho thought.—(Hear, hear.) In
the first place, any person who read these papers must
see that they were produced for the purpose of operating
on the public mind in regard to this question. Those
returns had reference to the results of the free-trade
measures of the last few years, with regard to that
part of their trade which was now practically unpro-
tected. But they were produced not on a question of
trade, but on a question c f navigation. Now, it they
tAionlartgheeymshausauldofnotitguhraevaehbaer
hpereondupereoddanteeadll.
were not valuable as a guide upon a question of naviga-
u—nd(ljereatrh.e) head of unprotected trade to show that they could, as
appeared from the experience of the last few :years, en-
gage without danger in competition with all the nations
unprotected
ttehde subject owfaathioenansdrtlelha;
tboufttohnia looking
alclylosuenbp'
larger portion was practically protected, and that there
was not that free and open intercourse which alone was
the question at issue.—(Hear.) They were told that
they could compete without protection with foreign
countries—that they could compete with the mercantile
marine of China, of Sumatra and Java, the Mexican
States, and South America. They were told they could
compete with Russia, which had but small navigatieg
power and little taste for maritime pursuits—that they
could compete with Turkey—with Austria, which had but
alimited sea frontage. The result to which these papers
wouldle ad their Lordships, in consequence of the classitica-
e headings given, was that they
lion adopted and the
could compete with all these countries, ono by one.
This was one part of these documents. The other part
of this unprotected trade, the result of which would go
they could compete, unprotected,
with foreign nations, in
to satisfy them that
navigation,
referred to France,
Germany, the UnitedNeterlands, and the United
States. The tonnage of England was- stated at 556,000
tons, whilst that of France was only 262,000 tons. But
note appended—no., whatever to indi-
cate to them that this superiority of England was owing
to steam-boat navigation—that comprehended the vast
t
variety of steam-vessels which
Channel.—(Hear,
constant and re-
hear.)
re-
peated passages across the
in the tonnage
Now, this cowd not he called an increase
of sea-going vessels, although that was the impression
'
which these papers would create n their Lordship s
there was a
United
States;
minds.— (Hear, hear.) They were also told
great increase in the open trade with the
but they were never told that if they examined the sub-
ject, the increase of the vessels of the United States was
still greater.—(Cheers.) They were told that the British
tonnage engaged in the open unprotected trade with the
United States amounted, in 1846, to 811,000 tons.
Those who were acquainted with the intercourse be-
tween the two countries must have been startled at such
a statement. Here, sgain, it was found on inquiry, that
this amount of tonnage was made up much in the same
way us the tonnage kotween this country And the cottu-