The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

of the country. Some of the parishes were of such ex-
tremely limited extent—for instance, one in Cork was
entirely occupied by a distillery, and another consisted
of only 40 square yards—that if they were not united
there would be no provision whatever for the clergyman.
Another ground of complaint was the non-residence of
the clergy; but this defect was fast disappearing. In
1819 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese
of Armagh was 82, of whom 15 were non-resident; in
1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased
to 102, whilst the number of those non-resident was
reduced to five, two of whom were non-resident on
account of illness. In 1819 the number of beneficed
clergymen in the diocese of Meath was 94, of whom 20
were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed
clergymen had increased to 107,1 and the number non-
resident was reduced to seven. n 1819 the number of
beneficed clergymen in the diocese of Ossory and Ferns
was 147, of whom 45 were non-resident; in 1849 the
number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 244,
and the non-residents were reduced to nine. In 1819
there were 109 beneficed clergymen in the diocese of
Cashel and Waterford, of whom 52 were non-resident;
in 1849 the number of clergymen had increased to 121,
whilst that of nonresident was reduced to nine.—
(Hear.) Had he been able to procure returns from the
other dioceses in Ireland, they would have exhibited
similar resultS.—(Hear, hear.) The alleged excessive
wealth of the Church in Ireland had long furnished a
tonic for declamation against the establishment. In
1833 Lord Althorp was obliged to acknowledge that on
no subject had such exaggerated statemerrs been put
forth as with respect to the revenues of the Irish Church,
and ho (Mr. Hamilton) must he allowed to say that a
little of the old spirit of exaggeration was apparent in
the remarks of the Hon. Member for Middlesex upon
this topic. The Hon. Member stated that the income of
the Irish clergy amounted to 680,8361, and that of the
Church altogether to 852.000/. The property of the
Church was divided amongst the parochial clergy, dig-
nitaries, and bishops. It appeared from the evidence of
Slr. Quin, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that
the gross income of the Irish clergy was 453 094/., and
their net income 369,3601., without deducting the poor-
rates. The amount of rates struck during the year
eliding the 31st of December, 1848, througout Ireland,
was 2s. 91d. in the pound; and it was truly stated in
that House, a few evenings since, that the moment a
rate was struck in Ireland landlords deducted the
irnount, as they were empowered to do by the Church
Temporalities Act, from the clergyman's rent-
charge. It was therefore necessary to deduct from the
net income of the clergy, namely, 369,360/., the amount
taken from it by the landlords for poor-rate, which was
63.244/, and would reduce the net income of the clergy
to 306,1161.—(Hear.) But there WAS still another de-
duction to be made from the income of the clergy,
namely, the sum which they paid to their curates, which
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners returned at 56.7081.
That deduction being made, the net income of the clergy
of the Irish Church stood at 249 408/., which divided
amongst them, independently of curates, would give an
average of 172/. 16s. 2d. for each clergyman.—(Hear,
hear.) According to the last census, and making no
allowance for the subsequent increase of population,
there was a congregation of 590 members of the Church
of England for each clergyman. Now, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex would not think of offering a clergy-
man with such a congregation less than 1721. a year,
and, therefore, it was evident that if he succeeded in
establishing his congregational principle he would be
unable to effect any saving.—(clear) The net income
of twenty of the lsrgest b-nefiees in Ireland was 14,1291..
being an average of 7081. for each, which could not b.,
deemed very extravagatit.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
fhe largest benefice in Ireland was that of Temple-
more, attached to the deanery of Derry. It contained 8
churches, 15 schools, in which LOCO children were edu-
cated, and the incumbent kept nine curates. The present
income of this, the largest benefice in Ireland, was only
1,5521,—(E1ear.) He would admit that the smallness of
particular congregations was an evil incident to the pa-
rochial system, and it was one from which England was
riot exempt. The Commissioners of Public Instruction
reported that there were in 1834 forty-four benefices in
Ireland in which there were no congregations belonging
to the Established Church. Twenty of these livings
nad lapsed to the general fond, arid twenty-one still
existed, of which several would shortly lapse. Bet if thy
House were to abolish at once these twenty-one bene-
fices in which th, re was nn congregation belonging to
the Established Church, the net income derivable thre-
from would be 1,235/. If they took the revenues of the
100 parishes in which there were the smallest congre•
,rations they would derive a yearly sum of 9 049/. The
;;rocs income et the dignitaries of the Established Church
in Ireland—deans, archdeacons, prebendaries, &a, exclu-
slusive of bishops and archbishops—was 23 0001, or
21,000/. net. The next class was the bishops, a reasonable
income for whom had been hell to be about 4.0001. The
gress income of the English bishops was 6,683/.. and their
net income 5,931/ The gross total income of the Irish
Bishops was 40,5331., giving en average income to eseh
Bishop of 4,0551. The Archbishops received 15,8081.,
and the total income of Irish Archbishops and Bishops
was 56,3811. There were 814 glebe-houses to 1,450 be-
;maces, and there were great numbers of applications of
pressing necessity for the building of new and the repair
of old churches, which it was impossible to meet, from
the want of funds. He trusted that he had stated suffi
cient to correct the errors and gross exaggerations pre-
valent respecting the wealth of the Irish Church.—
(Hear, hear.) This Honourable Member for Mayo (fir.
Moore) declared that the Irish Church had not fulfilled
the object for which it hail been established, but he
.hould have thought that the sacrifices made by the
clergy of the Established Church during the late dis-
tress sufficiently disproved the assertion that no social
elvantages had resulted from the existence of that
Church. Ile had always held that the Irish Church
ought to be sustained and upheld its a missionary
sod aggressive Church.—(Hear, hear.) The, Noble
Lord the Member for Arundel said that he
would not give a farthing for a Church that
sras not a missionary chu ch and aggressive in its cha-
racter. Truth cool 1 only be promoted by the c .Vision
of opinions, and he considered it to be the duty equally
of Protestants and Roman Catholics t i propogate th• it
views, provided that in doing so they did not violate
Christian charity. The Noble Lord at the head of the
government said on the 16th of July, 1846, in reference
to this subject, that the destruction of the l'ro'estant
Church in Ireland would be a fatal measure in a political
ooint of view, as it, would alienate the feelings of many of
the most loyal inhabitants of Ireland; and tit a religious
point of view, because it would be the commencement
of a religious war, in which the most violent attack
would be made on the Roman Catholic Church ; and
that he believed the Roman Catholics themselves would
ie the first to complain of the destruction of the Protes-
tant Church. He (Jlr. Hamilton) believed that the Noble
Lord had not in the slight, at degree exaggerated the
,e,elinga of the great, mass of the Roman Catholics in that
rhte pet
r-tcc ttho.
themselves,eeh ,b tcehd was
wouldahsa tstoh greatenwuetl l body of that Church,
c which he ivilisation.—(Hear.)
s eel(
calculatedt he
o destructionpro m ot,
promote
geifeesetihannden(
Mr. HUME would not long detain the House on a
frequently before expressed
s opinions. The Hon. Gentleman
down had called the attention ofwho had
just sat
r arid other leature4 of the theE House to the plu-
I-eland, not one of which was mentionedtblished Church in
in ki
if the Hon. M-mber for Middlesex. lie (Mr. na°Lion
Hume)
lad risen to complain that the Right Hon. Baronet had
tot grappled in any fair way with the motion of his
sous Friend. rhe injury, inerelly and socially, which
ho Church in Ireland it:flatted on the people was de-
elorable, an it would he sound policy to put a stop to
he evil—an evil which inflmted degradation on every
Catholic iii the country —(Hear.) He had only to sae
that he considered the motion of his Hon. Friend, in a
financial point of view, as of great importance, and, as
sff-cting the morals of the people, as of the greatest
weight. The Right Hon. Baronet, in opposing the
:notion, went off on the plea that the Church had been
:.00ted 300 years; but it had, he (Mr. Elume) was sorry
et say, grown very badly—(Laughter)—and while it
increased but little, if et all, the Catholic Church in-
-teased twelvefold. The price of supporting the Church
if Ireland, as it was now supported, cost the people of
tlnglend 50,000 armed men. He felt that every Irishman
rnest rise daily and feel himself in relation to the state and
iperation of the Church, a degraded mortal ; and
.what was mere, he had the additional mortification of
hearing the minority on every Sunday, railing against
the majority who paid for the support of their Church,
keeping up a state of antagonistic feeling in the country.
Was it not too bad to find the minority thus abusive of
the majority who were compelled to supp .rt them? The
On-, however, he would tell the Reuse. was come, when
they must deal with the people of Ireland on a very
lifferent footing in respect to that Church.—(Elear, hear.)
Let them look to Scotland. If tile Government had sec-
emded in planting in that country, as was done in Ire-
land, a Church which was alien to the feelings of its
people, would Scotland be the country which it was
IOW? No; It would be in the same state that Ireland
was now.—(Hear, hear.) It was admitted that while in
Env:arid the people enjoyed their own religion, ind
senile in Scotland the people enjoyed th-ir own religion,
Ireland was placed in the anomalous situation of seeing
-,he majority of her people taxed, in order that the mi-
nority might exist. Was it any wonder, then, that dis •
content existed in that country?—(Hear, hear.)
Let them assign any other cause. He admitted
that bad laws prevail, d in the country. forming a source
of discontent; but the great cause of discontent was the
state of the Established Church in that country—a
cause which his Hon. Friend made as clear as
anti thing could be. The Church was the foundation on
which Repeal" and every other association was based,
'He could never forget the speech of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) when be was leaving office,
and surrendering power into the hands of the present
Ministers, in relation to the Irish Church. The Right
Hun, Baronet said on that occasion that he should sup
Dort the Ministers in their efforts te remove those causes
of disuont, nt arising from one class of religion being
place! in the asceuilant over another. The I{,i.:ht Hon.
Baronet knew that the men who now occupied the Minis-
terial benches had been railing for forty years against
the abuse, and he thought that they would be the perry
to remove that grievance; but he (Mr. Hume) regretted
that the Right Honourable Baronet and the public were
disappointed in that opinion. The clinging of the
Church party to the morel—he meant the revenues of
the Church—convinced him that they were doubtful of
their own Church, and that they felt that without those
means the Church of England would fall. It was impos-
sible that any people (unless they were slaves) could
submit to such a state of injustice and degradation. The
revenues of the Church of Rigland were public money—
they were public property taken by Parliament from
one sect, and given by Parliament to another sect.
—(Cries of Hear, hear.") He only rose to express
his regret that the Government were not prepared to
favour the motion of his Hon. Friend for the appointment
of a Committee to take into consideration the state of
the Irish Church, with a view to a correction of its
abuses.—(Hear, hear.)
Ur. F. WOUD was anxious on ocoasien to ex-

he believed that since the Reformetion the Protestant
service had never been celebrated in any one of the eight
parishes he had alluded to.—(Hear.) The Irish Church,
notwithstanding all the support it had received, hid
~compietely failed in carrying out the objects intended by
It never would carry out that object, and he did
not therefore see the propriety of keepine, it up.
Reforms had been attempted in that Church, in order to
bring it more into popular favour; but these had all
failed in doing so. These reforms had been proposed
and carried out by the Right H tn. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth, and others; but they had all totally
failed, That Church was, therefore, conceived to be a
harden on the people of Ireland, and while that idea of
it prevailed among the people, there was no hope of its
ever being rendered useful to that country. He held
that the religion of the majority of the people ought to
be the religion of the State, and as such supported by the
State; and in support of that doctrine he quoted the
opinion of Drs. Bailie, Warburton, and Arnold. It was,
however, said that as the Act of Union had made Ireland
an integral portion of this empire, that it was the reli-
tn° of the majority of the three kingdoms—Scotland,
gland, and Ireland—that ought to determine what
Was to be the established religion. That, how•
ever, was not a proper ground to proceed upon,
for if they
admitted the principle of giving the sup-
Port of the State to the
religion of the majority of
et,he people of England awl Scotland, why could
rey to
refuse to extend the same system to Ire-
'es_aad? The present system of making the priests of the
‘boman Catholic Church in Inland so dependent upon
thethose priests to
people was the means of causing
sympathise with, and to further the prejudices and opi-
nions of the people, while by placing the priests on an
independent footing they would obviate that evil. No
13" who had paid any attention to the history of Ire-
-and, could tail to have seen the bad effects of such a
Beeiteini It was said that the Roman Catholic clergy-
men did not themselves respect the law; but had they
not respected the law, Ireland would have been in a dif-
ferent state from what it was at present. No doubt the
Roman Catholics of Ireland were, as a body, disaffect- d,
and no wonder that they should be so, while they saw a
Church established amongst them, eating up the re-
110nrees of their country, while the great majority of the
People repudiated its doctrines. By appropriating the
revenues of that Church for other purposes, and doing
a
W. ay With that sectarian feeling which, while that
eenurch 'Establishment .existed in Ireland, would still
Prevail, they would be conferring the greatest benefit on
the people of Ireland.
air G. GREY—I wish to relieve at once the anxiety
and apprehensions expressed by the Hon. and Gallant
Member for Middlesex, that the Government would, on
this occasion, move the previous question; for, however
may differ from him in thinking that there may be
Occasions on which moving the previous question is the
Proper way of meeting the .point at issue, when I look
it the circumstances under which this motion is made,
the particular effects it may produce, and the object he
confesses he has in view, I do not think this question one
Which can be met in that manner. and, as I am not pre-
pared to entertain the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman's
plan, I consider I am justified in at once voting against
the motion.—(Hear' hear.) The Hon. and Gallant
Member warned the Government that they were not to
congratulate themselves on the present circumstances
and condition of Ireland. That the circumsiauces
and cendition of that country are not such as
to °Cr a prospect of unmitigated satisfaction, I
deeply regret to say I concur with him in
asserting. On the contrary, it is one which it is impos-
sible for any person to contemplate without deep pain
and regret ; but at the same time I am unable to see in
the motion the Honourable and Gallant Member has
brought forward the slightest hope that it would remedy
the social evils, which are the real evils at present, or
Ireland, or that it would facilitate her improvement
Ravingese listened with attention to the speech of the
eeorurable Member tor Mayo (Mr. Moore), I must say
could discover but little in support of the Honourable
and Gallante Gentleman's plan The Honourable Gen-
ic°s
an (Ner
oore).saye he supports the motion because
nillealceltaled to remove domestic grievance and dime
political huediscontent. I. on the contrary, think it
to revive
that political
to excite domestic discontent, and
less in
err 111 political disquiem le of which we have
form.:" at the present moment than at
able and ee ,Period.—(Eleer, hear.) The Henour-
time of
theant Member occupied much of the
Pressed b . House in quoting sentiments ex-
Gover, y this
elembers of the Heuse and of the
to "lent on this question, tine he did me the honour
rp
pr
to th
took . ()Pinion I expressed in the debate which
silence aoee in 1844, adding that there had been an ominous
n our part from that period to the present, and
nthfatthetrtiTinrthe time when my Noble Friend the Frst Lord
the Iris hc,,aary brought forward his motion respecting
said respecting
Church to this, there had never been one word
lious,,-BP''etirig that question within the walls of the
Ise, 7 a feet which he declared it to be his intention to
aftePr to the memory of Government.—(f tear, hear.) Now,
in
th a"
the research
of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
e Pges of Hansard. and atter all his pains iu eel
of Passages suitable to his purpose, I must complain
Want of memory in return. The Houourable and
Gallant Gentleman seems to have fergoiten the debate
oil 1845, which led to a protracted di,cu.si .n. tin that
ceasten I repeated the opinions I had expressed tifort-
*--.Thnot exactly such as he, in order to recommend his
motion to the House, quoted them—but such as I have
ever retained and new adhere to ou this question—(lllw,
uttnee ).—natnely, opinions against the policy, the justice,
Shoti`i'etlee expediency of m entaining in Ireland, or in stay
er country, an Established Church endowed by the
„ 0101, that Church being the Church of the minority.
eee d cries of " Hear, hr ar," from several Lion. Mew I heve repeat, die expressed these opinions
before, but I now ask the Hon. aiel Gallent Gentleman it
theremet is anything in this plan of his affecting the endow
of the Estaolished Church, or is there any remed.
coot
Gallatn" hi it for that grievance? The Honourable and
allow" neither, in humble imitation—l hope he will
s
P ose me
teat, eto say—of a greater man than himself, pro-
following out the plan of Lord Stanley, who,
„ pro-
We there were twenty Bishops iu Ireland, reduced
b
meta to
ten, we should reduce those ten to five.—(Heat,,
ea
r.) But, does he propose there should be any en-
dowment of the Roman Catholic Church? Cer awly
not. But the five Bishops would still be endowed by
the State as the Bishops of our Established Church, and
Would enjoy the Church revenues; and. so long as they
did so, the question, which I have- repeatedly expressed
my belief to be a question not of money but of feeling,
would remain untouched.—(Elear, hear.) The Hon
and Gallant Gentleman also forgets the subject was dis-
cussed at the close of 1848. when I must do him the
jutice he forgot to render to himself, in reminding him
he brought it before the Ilouse in a speech on the gen.—
ral state of Ireland, and when I,stated in reply to him
the views I have always expressed on this subject. But
may I, while on this subject, ask the Ron. anti G Alan,
Gentleman when he accuses us of changing our opinions
why he has Chang. d his plan since th. n? —(Heat-. hear.)
The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman talks of a compro
mise, but there must be two parties to a cotnpr,enise;
and I have yet to learn that he is in the confidence o'
the Roman Catholics of Ireland, or that this plan of his
will remedy all their disconteut. I mist remind the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman, when he says I have
maintained au ominous silence on this questien since
1844, that on the 29th July, 1848, I spoke as follows:
"I am nut prepared to deny, but to affirm, that the ex-
istence of an exclusive Protestsnt Church in Irelatto
(the Protestant Episcopalians b- ing, a small minority
only of the population) is an anomally unjustifiable it,
its origin and indeten,ible now. I know No other coun-
try in Europe in which the same experiment has beet,
made—in which the same attempt has been c arried out •
and I am quite prepared to sea that the wisdom ant,
policy of the attempt in Ireland must be condemned b.
its results." I will not troub:e the H .use with repeat-
ing eny more of what I then expressed; but I think I
have said enough to exonerate myself from the charge
o
ion
of having preserved the ominous silence of which the
.. and Gallant Gentleman accused me. L tekine
.back, however, to the spetch I delivered in 1844, to
Which the Hon. and Gallant Memeer has given partial
quotations, leaving out the pith of my opinions—l
ti.,
eti
ot expressed myself with respect to the facility re
any measure to redress the grievauce and rem, dy the
sails complained of in terms stronger than I would nos
uR,.t.--(Clicers.) When the Right 11 tn. Baronet (S'
R• Peel) intro lured his Bill to increase the endowmert
anal,i,ototh I qualified the opinions I expressed in 1844
s
to that whilst I hailed the measure as the first ate;
wards removingr what had been felt to be a stigma and
insult I did
the least degree
it on the Government to advanc
peeepeo, further than they could go with e
sub
jeet Lot uceess.—(Hear, hear.) Since that time the
has occupied much of the attention of her Me
Jesty's Government. They have anxiously desired to
the find a remedy fur the evils of which they recognised
existence, but when the Hon. Gentleman the
na Meer for Mayo (Mr. Moore) says the prejudices
t
ofthe people of this country are an obstacle to the
snatoins.fac‘e
t.ory. settlement of the question, and tha•
et =ere come to this House prepared to Vote
against their consciences in deference to the prejudices o'
e
their constituents, I must rininclhim that
other grounds of difficulty
besides those
h ethere
men
are
has
tinned. I must remind him that one
great bar to te set-
t ement of that question is the avowed, and repeated, and determined resolution (as far as we can judge) of the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and of the great body of the
Roman Catholic clergy and laity, not to consent to any
scheme by which their Church should be endowed.—
(Cheers.) We are nut in the same petition as we were
when the Roman Catholic, were petitioning Parliament
for admission to the civil privileges from which they
were unjustly debarred,
but I believe a mistaken,
of
Scotiand feeling
and we have a strong, honest,
country andamong the people of this
Roman Catholic Church, against the endowment of the
whila we have the great body
of the hierarchy and cler
against such a measure.—Uieeaf that
Chul.'4l
protesting
Wh••u I feel this to
be the case I ask myself, is irt.)worth while, whatever
opinions we may entertain, to Pro ele a measure which
would give rise to great animosit'' contention, and de.
and Which, itohsere of being
bate—excite much opposition,
nor!, therefore, t.feeorrew, whom
accepted as a boots, would be rejected b
We asked it? I am not prepared
e rhcoehfr the
more than I was last year, to go into a Committee
whole House with the Hon. and Gallant J•Cleti.
to
cripple the resources of the Establishe I
in
Ireland, and with the view of taking that mutilatt
only as an instalment, looking, as I understood him, to thee
ultimate extinction and abolition of that Church alto-
.
gether. I shall not go into all the topics advanced by
the Hun, and Gallant Gentleman, but this I may say,
that with regard to trust property I ain not prepared
to go the length which. according to him, Lord Brougham
did in days gone by. lie said the property of the Church
and the pay of the army were on the same footing.
Mr. B. OiBORNE—Sir James Mackintosh said the
same tlaing.—(A laugh.)
bir G. GREY—Whether the lion. and Gallant Mem-
' 'ber quotes the Noble Lord correctly or not lam unable
9 say, but, whether Lord Brougham or Sir James

Mackintosh said it, I am not prepared to agree to the
principle so broadly laid down. I am, however, quite
prepared to draw a distinction between trust and private
property, and there are Acts on the statute-book which
show that Parliament has exercised the right of 1 gts-
lating for trust property, and of making regulations
with regard to it which they would not make for private
property.
An 110 N. MEMBER—What of Lord Lansdowne?
Sir G. GREY—As to Lord Lensdewne's question,
" Is the country made for the Church, or the Church
for the country?" I have no hesitation in saying
I believe the Church should be .made for the
country—that the only object of its establishment is to
teach religion and to watch over the formation of the
morals of the people—and that the Church which fails
in this must fail in everything else.—(Hear, hear.) Nor
would I rely on the sth article of the union as a bar to
the motion, any more than it was a bar on a former oc-
casion when the Noble Lord asked the House to go into
Committeeon the Church Temporalities Act, though I
regard it certainly as opposing a bar to the absolute ex-
tinction of the Established Church in Ireland.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member said very truly, if we were allowed to
begin de novo no one would think of establishing in Ire-
land such a Church as exists there at present; but I must
recall the Hon. Member's attention to the difference be-
tween the original institution of a Church and a Church
which has existed for 200 years. The Hon. Member
(Mr. Moore) alluded to the past history of that Church,
and said it was written in characters of blood ; and,
speaking of the horrors which had taken place since its
first establishment, declared they surpassed those of the
Italian inquisition. But I coal,' have hoped the same
feeling which made him doubt whether he had done
right
in alluding to those occurrences in-darker times and ages
long gone by would have induced him to pause ere he
did so, or to have at least moderated his language. I for
one think the terms used by the Hon. Member were too
strong, and I must remind him we are cleating with the
Cherch that now exis a, not with that which existed cen-
turies ago. I must regret that, having mentioned those
topics, he did not feel it was his duty also to advert to
the conduct of the Protestant clergy, and to bear his
testimony to the untiring beneficence and indefatigable
endeavours of that body during the recent period of
famine—(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Moore)—;o their de-
sires and labours to mitigate the distress of the people
without religious or party distinction, and to the good
produced by their zealous and noble exertions.—(hear,
hear.) 'rho Hon. Member for Middlesex stated that I
was a member of the Irish Society, having subscribed
to its funds. The Irish Society, however, is not con-
nected with the Irish Church. It is a voluntary society,
supported by voluntary subscriptions; and the Honour-
able Gentleman, being an advocate of the voluntary
system, has no right to object on his own principles to
the existence of a society whose members have tee the
object of their association how to benefit their fel-
low-creatures. I have a knowledge of its former
history, though not of its recent acts ; but I have
the strongest reason to believe that the object of
the society was to send forth men in the missionary
spirit who could speak the Irish language, and would,
by speaking the Irish language, be enabled to con
vey spiritual and moral instruction to many of their
fellow countrymen, to whom such instruction would
otherwise be inaccessible. But if the Hon. Member
means to charge me with cherishing any sympathy for,
or giving any assistance to those who would take advan-
tage of the distress in Ireland to withhold relief from
the people except on the condition of abjuring their
faith, and who would thus be making temporal aid u
means of seducing them from that faith, I can only say
that I utterly repudiate -any such imputation—(Hear,
hear)—and in doing so, I shall add that I have no reason
to believe that there is any member of that Irish Society.
or any person connected with it, who could be capable of
such conduct. The Hon. Gentleman read an extract of
a speech delivered by some person whom he described as
an scent of that society.—(Mr. Osborne—t‘ A clergy
man ") I a.n not responsible for that speech, and with
the sentiments I cannot profess the slightest sympathy.
The Honourable Gentlemen alio read a letter pur
porting to be from the Lord Lieutenant of Irelan 1,
in which it was said that 0 the loyalty of the
f;atholics was not to be trusted." I believe the Lor.i -
Lieutenent said no such thing. The Hon. Gentlemen
did not mention the date of that letter. He is a
person of so much research that it is impossible to follow
Wm through all the documents he has quoted.—(A
laugh.) But, from all my intercourse with the Lord-
Lieutenant, there is no person, I am convinced, less
likely to express such a sentiment ; and I believe his
opinion to be, as it is the opinion of myself and others.
that there is a general spirit of loyalty and attachment
towards the Sovereign ot this realm pervading the great
body of the people of Ireland—('fear, hear)—with cer-
tain exceptions, which have now, I hope, ceased to
exist. Ido not think that I need enter into a defenc
of the Established Church of Ireland. That may well
he left in the hands ot the Honourable Member for the
University of Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), who will
take grounds, howese r, which I should not, gene-
rally speaking, be able to take. But I was anxious
to re-state my opinions on the question which the
Honourable Member for Middlesex has raised, and to
remind the House of the great and. paramount diffi-
culty which exists with respect to the terms on which it
can be settled ; and, till we can reasonably hope to be
able to propose a measure to Parliament which shall
carry out those views, I do not think it the duty of the
Government to follow a course which could only hay(
the effect of leading to interminable discussions and
acrimonious debates. For these reasons I shall vot•
against the motion. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the
absence of my Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). It is
owing to domestic causes which left him no alternative.
—(Hear, hear.) But for that circumstance, it was hi,
fill intention to have been present.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed. that the Right Hon.
Baronet, admitting that the Established Church of Ire-
land was a great injustice, argued us if that injustice
would be done away with by establishing another
Church. The state of the Irish Church had always been
,he great grievance on which the movement for the
peal of the union rested. On what ground did those who
defended it take their stand? On the ground that re-
ligious truth ought to be maintained. But those wh•
trgued so were parties to establishing Hindooism in
India, the Catholic religion in Malta and Canada, the
Presbyterian Church in Scotland How, then, could
they say that their object was to establish re
ligious truth? Having sanctioned those variou-
establisha.:ents in deference to a majority of tie
people in each instance, they yet established
in Ireland the Church of a small minority. Was
it on the ground of religious efficiency that the
Dish Church was defended? In the time of Charles II
the proportion of Protestants to Romln Catholics wa,
As 3 to 8; in 1824 the Protestants were to the Catholti-
sty tor Sudety,
beingworkaa r
.prinpublishedt by the Ecclesiastical
of the Comm an Praye,
introduced
„i
,asfoirmpthuetedusteo
colefrgthyemelnrisol;
grossit'irukreho,rig
that Church, and the editor rematisketdh th rt nu suir.ablt•
rnr,,,invispiorn,,yheradeirbte.uera,m,dac,in fatihr.htios Book of Cum
ri tone
vueer,noareufr re.
quiring that clergymen should speak theg
having been chimed that the Book of Common Parr.; 1.1
sheuld be read only in English or Latin. the4OYtt-rt:
hand, there was a people speaking the Irish langirige,
ou the other, a Churcti established which pusiiivel
enacted that no Irishman should be.electsd to a cure
p miens-stem had been made three times to see whiehe,
en Englishman could be got. It was making men prat,
tical hypocrites to compel them to euppert a Churei
whose dope is they believed untrue, and whose preach
oig they thought unsound. Was it on political ground
hat ttie Church established in Ireland could be de
ended? Certainly that Church had not been the mean
et procuring tranquillity. It had been said that th
Protestants went to Ireland with a sword in one hand
and a Bible in the other. They drew the sword, bte,
eirgut to (seen the Bible. They had distinguished them-
;elves mere by confiscations than by coucessions. Ann
what had constantly been the caues of agrarian disturb •
ince ? It was to the injustice of the tithe system that
Kock, and Starlight, and the Peep-u'-Day Buys °wen
tneir origin:-
4. As long as Popish spade and scythe
Shall dig and cut the Sassenach tithe,
And Popish purses pay the tolls
On Heaven's road for Sassenach souls;
As long as millions shall kneel down
To ash of thuesands for their own;
Si long the happy reign shall be
Of Cepiain Rock and his family!"
The Church of Ireland had further been made odious as
a political engine; and the great body of the Irish peep!,
hid made up their minds that, by some means or other.
so great a practical aeuse as that Church should be
abated.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, while he could not approve
.f the views stated by the Right Hen. Gentleman the
Secretary for the Heine Departtnent. must make hi.
Acknowledgments for the intimation of the Right 1-lon.
Gentleman's intention tO meet the motion by a decided
"egatiee.—(Bear, beau.) No policy cetilil b s attentlei,
ty more fatal consequences than any weekness on th'
part of the Government with reference to the subject 0.
toe Church at thattime.
r()m h
uoen argument,.
tHeregretted that the questiol
tmeot d bee
he
raisedns har by the Member fobruAtlitrihdaltesesxin—
tthat
ce
n
i.
inotuhse
abandoned,se
controversyt thetn e hhaadd,
acrimonybaes e
.i147,81rp4e0:l ibtsyiiineice°leluf lis
tr
ebol
n
mitig eed, and the revival of either wan to be ilepreceted.
the Hon. Member obj.cted to the inertness-of the Irish
Church at a former period, and now that it was active he
said that it was promoting hypocrisy. It would be
his ()Ir. Hamilton's) duty to point out what had been
done towards correcting the abuses in the Irish Church
to which the Hon. Member had particularly adverted.
and he would pledge his character upon the accuracy of
any statements he might make. One of the primary
grounds of complaint against the Church in Ireland was
the existence of pluralities. Miny Hon. Members inn
p rrhaps, that pluralities existed to a great extent
ui the Irish Church, and that there were no means of cor-
recting the abuse. In 1834 the number of pluralities in
the Irish Church was SE ; in 1843, the date of the last.
return, the number had been reduced to 34.—( leer,
hear.) The process of reduction was still in progress.
No fresh pluralities could be created except through n
faculty granted by the Primate of Ireland, and no such
faculty had been granted since 1828. In point of fact,
the system of pluralities was fast disappearing under
the administration of that distinguished Prelate. Sine-
cures furnished another ground of complaint against the
Irish Church; but under the Church Temporalities Act
and subsequent Acts ample provision was made for the
correction of that abuse. Another defect in the establish-
ment upon which its opponents laid great stress was the
existence of union,. It was true that the existence of
unions was an abuse which once prevailed to a great ex-
tent in Ireland, but it had been abated by the operation
of the Church Temporalities Act, which invested the
Lord-Lieutenant in Council with power to dissolve
unions. No fewer than 53 unions had been dissolved
since 1833. Some few unions yet remained, because
they were indispensable under the existing circumstances

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING-, JULY 11, 1840.

press the grounds on which he meant to give his vote
on this queetien, and to make some observations on the
speech of the Hon. Member for the University- of Dubin
(Mr. Hamilion). While he censidered the Church of
England—to which he was proud to belong—was the
purest, and he sp dee it witnout intention to give offence
to any other religion, he could not but express his regret
at the state of that Church in Ireland, and the manner in
which it was supported. It was plain, he must say, that
Church formed but a very small portion of the people of
the country; and the House should recollect that they
were dealing with it as a national question. The ground
on which he could give his vote for the motion now be-
fore the House, was not that ho expected that at that
late period of the session it would be successful, but to
mark his sense of the question; at the same time, in
voting for the motion to go into Committee, he did not
pledge himself to vote for all those points in reference
to the state of the Established Church in Ireland which
the Honourable Member had referred to in introduc-
ing the question. Now, with reference to the
Church, he was bound to say that it had never been
the national Church of Ireland, They had seen the
conquest of Wales, and why did not these grievances
which afflicted Ireland prevail there? They had found
that with very few exceptions, the inhabitants were not
handed over to the Normans as the Irish were; and the
consequence was, that although they were exposed to
great diffieulties in Wales, they had peace and tran-
quillity in that country, notwithstanding it was, as he re-
marked, a conquered country. The difference between
the countries was, that the people of Wales were left
their estates, while the Irish people were doomed to
have their estates divided among the Norm sns; and the
Governments of this country really thought no more of
the Irish, than they did of the natives when establishing
the eolonies in America. The qtvstion seemed to him
to be a great grievance requiring decided redress. The
point moat desired in all churches was that she should
be the guardian and directress of the poor; but in Ire-
land the Church exercised no such kindly functions for
the benefit of the " mere Irish." Now while he gave
support to the motion, he differed from some of the
det.ils which the Honourable and Gallant Member for
Middlesex announced his intention of moving it they
went into Committee.—(Hear, hear.) tie did
not think it necessary that a bishop should
have 4 0001. a year. Indeed, one of the best Bishops
of the Episcopal Church he ever knew had only 701. a
year.—(Hear, hear.) Fifteen hundred a year ought to
be the maximum allowance to each bishop. They were
bound to take steps to remedy the abuses which existed
in this respect—abuses which principally arose from the
fact of the Church in Ireland not being a national
church.

NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT. -
Mr. PACKE postponee his motion on the delay in
completing the new II luso of Comm nu till next session.
HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
On the motion of Mr. BRIGHT (in the absence of
Ur. Hume), the following returns were ordered:—
Return of all sums voted for harbours of refuge since
the year 1844 and a statement of the money expended
upon Dover, Harwich, and Portland respectively: similar
return for ilolyheed, distinguishing between the
gums expended upon the old and new harbours:
statement, showing under which depactment of Govern-
ment the several harnJur works are being carried
out, and the sort of superintendence or control that is
exercised over them; copies of the authenticated plan (if
any) of the works to be executed at each of these places,
showing the extent to which it is proposed they should
be carried, and the estimated expense of each ; and of
the report of surveys, if any, or copy of plans, if any,
showing the progress made from time to time in the
works ; and showing also their peesent state ; the
amount already expended on each, and the amount to
be expended to complete the works as originally
planned. C pies of the authority under which the
harbour depertment of the A,lmirelty was formed, and
of the letter of instructions, if any, which prescribed
its duties ; and of report of any Committee of Inquiry
as to the efficiency of that department, or of any report,
if any, recommending its reduction,, together with any
documents or other evidence on which such report may
have been founded.

NEW BILLS.
Leave was given to bring in the following Bills:
On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a Bill to repeal the
allow Ances in the purchase of stamps, and for the re-
ceiving and accounting for the duties on gold and silver
plate, and to grant oth"r allowances in lieu thereof.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, a Bill further to amend an Act of the
10th year of her present Majesty, for rendering valid
certain proceedings for the Relief of Distress is Ireland,
by employment of the labouring poor, and to indemnify
those who have acted in such proceedings. Also, Bill
to amend an Act of the 10th year of her Majesty, inti-
tuled, " An Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed
Property in Ireland."
On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to
continue an Act of the sth and 6th years of her present
Majesty for amending the law relative to private lunatic
asylums in Ireland.
MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL.
Mr. WYLD moved the second reading of this Bill.
Year after year the loss of lite in collieries was increas-
ing, and this year it had increased 35 per cent. over
the previous year, and his object in proposing this Bill
was to provide a remedy for this evil by a proper and
efficient system of inspection.
Sir G. GREY suggested that legislation should be
postponed until the Committee now sitting of the Howe
of Lords on the subject, and the Commission appointed
by the Government, should have reported. He did not
desire to go into the merits'of the Bill, but he was not
prepared to assent to the app Antment of a chief inspec-
tor in London, and a number of inspectors in the coun-
try, to be paid for by a rate of 3d. in the pound. He
believed the understanding on a former day was, that the
Bill should be postponed until the inquiries referred to
had concluded. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in
pressing the second reading, he should feel it his duty
to move that it be read a second time that day three

Mr. NAPIER. would be quite willing to rest the case
of .the Church on the able and eloquent statement of his
Hon. and valued Colleague. but there were some mistakes
in the arguments of the Honourable and L?arned Gen-
tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was
quite willing to compare the doctrines of the Protestant
Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try
its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have
their own conscientious views of what a Church of
eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed
the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not
more than sufficient for its creditable support.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was
done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason-
able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the
working clergy.—(Hear.) Tnere was, moreover, a
question of expediency involved in this matter, and he
contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant
Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity,
were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi-
cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but
he believed, after the utmost investigation. that the sum
actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners
for the Reduction of Ves.ry Cess and other matters,
amounted to between 650,0001. and 660,0001. a year.
The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and
when they were paying men out of a trust fund, it was
evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no
fitlti.3 to perform, Tnere were not above 200 more
Rotnan Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the
disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should
be said that there were friars in orders outside the Ro-
man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointiug to
the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protestant Church,
who were more numerous than the friars. With regard
to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to
ay that he should not wish any portion of such a sum
to be given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give
an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It
was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the
motion of his Hon. Friend.

months.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill.
Mr. BERNAL opposed it. He had a sincere deijre
to effect the object in view, but he had Lull confidence
that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary
would pay due attention to the subject.
Mr. DUNCAN requested Mr. Wyld to withdraw the

Bill.
Strangers withdrew, but the Bill was ucgatived with
out a division.

In reply to Mr. HENLEY,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he could not at present fix
the day for the second reading of the Railway Audit
Bill, but that he would do so on Thursday.
The House went into Committee on the
POOR RELIEF (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL,
The several clues of which were agreed to.
BOROUGHS RELIEF BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL.
This Bill also passed through Committee.
SHERIFFS (WESTMORELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and passed through
Committee.
The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-part One o'clock.

Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speec'
of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for unt
that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman
was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members
of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate
for tinkering the temporatities of the Establishment.
Ile had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman—
that he carne of decent people—that in point of fact he
was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly
was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh-
ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his
Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious
countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of
the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms:
—" No blame rests with the Court for their asp ,int-
wants, and excellent and moral men were selected for all
vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap
petted, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow
heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway,
and those who did a seized on their robes, and patents
of appointment. came over to Ireland, and were con-
secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) Thest,
were the lineal descendanta of St. Patrick. Let thtm
now see how the rest got on down to their own time.
['he Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr.
Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the
Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy,
on an average, had only 1721. 19s. lip. per annum.
But some had only 501. And as to averages, when the
corn-law was about to be repeal'-d, it was asserted that
on an average every man, woman, and child in England
consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily.
whereas in point of fact it was well known that thousands
of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the
other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It
was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there
was another view of the case, showing how these aver-
-1 ages told. The following summary was taken from a
paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of
the sums of money paid to the Established Church
of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,1271. 12s. 4d.; Deans,
22,6241. ss. 6d. ; ministers' money, 10,0001.; making
altogether, with glebe lands, an aggregate sum
of 807 5331. 12s. 4d. to which should be added
75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.)
Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick—
(A laugh)—paid the common dent of nature, and then
came the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he
found in. another public d mument, up to July, 1832, as
follows: Fowler, Archbishop of Dublin, 150,0001.;
Beresford, Bishop of 'foam, 250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of
Cashel, 400,0001.; Stoptord, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.;
Bernard, Bishop of Limerick, 250,000/. ; Hawkins,
Bish tp of Raphost, 250 0001.; and several others, making
in ail a.suna of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not
mean to insinuate .that those Bishops were substituted
for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they
certainly feathered their nests very well. The Right
Honourable. Gentliman the Secretary of State for the
Rome Department made a speech of which he did not
approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve-
nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholie
purposes any portion of it. His religion was not to be
sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl
Fortescue, pointing out the grievances of the Established
Church in Irelai,d, concluded by thanking the Honour.
able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which
he brought the question forward.
Major BERESFORD denied that the sum attributed
to the Archbishop of Tuam, on which probate duty was
paid, amounted to 250 0001. When the statement was
first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the
most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,000 L,
and not 250,0001,, as had. been, asserted.
Mr. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which
he referred was a public one, and as to the amount of
probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland
were indifferent to the monster grievance of the. Estab-
lished Church, and protested against any endowment
being made to the Catholic Church.
Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of
religious equality in It land have reason to regret the
tone, or upshot, of the debate,—(Hear, hear.) 13ut the
present is a melancholy occasion, and the Whig ptin
ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We
have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of
the appropriation dense, and now our melancholy duty
is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon. Secretary for
the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner,
while all the men who voted for the clause since 1835
are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(lleac
hear and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says
that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the
Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me
of my inconsistency, he should not forget that he
himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op-
posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last man to taunt
another with inconsistency; he is evidently a man of in-
firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted
for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle-
man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a
good practical plan." What is his plan? He would
endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He
knows that he dare not do it. lie knows that that is a
step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt
so long as they have the government of the country in
their bands.—(Hear.) I regret that the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvan and one or two other member,
of the Government have not given us the benefit of theit
opinion. Avuredly they win be obliged to eat much
dirt to-night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever
flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can-
not go on night after night seeing one principle expire
after another. They may lean one night on a crutch
and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose—
(Great laughter)—but they are only staggering on, and
must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This
question, which had already destroyed so many Govern.
ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's
present Ministry.—( Bear, hear.)
At the conclusion of the Hon. Member's reply, there
was a pretty general rush from the Ministerial benches.
As the Members passed out they were greeted with
loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist aide of the
House.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ••• ... ... 103
Against it ••• ••• ... ... 170
Majority ••• ... ... --67
The announcement of the numbers was greet 94 with
loud cheers by the minority.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
From the Votes and Proceedings of the Rouse of Commons.

MONDAY, JULY 9.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.

The following Resolution was reported from the above
Committee :
Tt►at in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway (New-
ca:tle and Silverdale Branch Amendment Act) petition, the
standing orders ought not to be dispensed with.—Report to
lie on the table.

PARLIAMEN TAR Y DI VISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Coninarts.i
TUESDAY, JULY tO.
CHURCH OF IRELAND.
Motion made, and Questi ci put, " That this House will
resolve itself into a Committee of the whole Howe, to con•
cider the present state of the Temporalities of the Church u:
Ireland." The House divided:—
MINORITY—AYES, 103.

Adair, R. A. Harris, Richard Pearson, Charles
Agliunby, 11. A. Headlam, T. E. Peellell, Captain
Aleock, Thomas Henry, Alexander Feb.° Samuel
Armstrong, R. B. Heywood, James Pilkington, James
Bass, M. T. lleyworth, L. Pinney, W.
Berkeley, Henry F. Hindley Charles Power, Dr.
Berkeley. C. L. G. Hodges, T. L. , Rawdon, Colonel
Bernal, Ralph Hodges, T. Twisden Reynolds, John
Birch, Sir Thomas Ilollond, Robert Ricardo, Osman
Blake. Martin J. Howard, C. W. Robartes, T. J.
Bouverie, E. P. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel
Bright, John Jackson, William Scully, Francis
Brotherton, J. Kershaw, James Shafto, It. D.
Bunbury, E. li. King, P. J. Smith, R. V.
Burke, Sir Thomas Langston, J. H. Smith, J. Benjamin
Callaghas, D. Locke, Joseph Spearman, IL J
Clay, James Lushington, C. Strickland, Sir G.
Cobden, R. ' 31`Cullagh, W. T. Stuart, Lord Dudley
Colebrooks, Sir T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tancred, 11. W.
Davie, Sir Henry Mangles, R. D. Ihicknesse, R. A.
I)'Eyncourt, C. T. Martin, Samuel Thompson, Colons
Duncan, Viscount Melguud, Viscount Thompson, George
Duncan, George Milner, W. M. Thornely, T.
Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Tollemache, F. J.
Evans, John Molesworth, Sir W. Trelawny, J. S.
Ewart, William Monsell, William Wall, C. B.
Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Walmsley, Sir J.
Fergus, John Mostyn, E. Wawn, J. T.
Fordyce, A. D. Mowatt, Francis Williams, John
Fortescue. Chichester Nugent, Sir Percy Wlllyams 11.
Fox, W. J. O'Brien, J. Wood, W. P.
Gibson, T. M. O'Connell, John
Greene, John O'Connell, M. J. TELLER!!.
Grenfell, C. Pascoe O'Connor, Feargus Osborne, Ralph
Grenfell, Charles W. O'Flaherty, Anthony Roche, E. B.
Grosvenor, Lord R. Ogle, S. C.

MAJORITY—NOES, 170.
Acland, Sir T. D. Gordon, Admiral Napier, Joseph
Ashley, Lord Gore, W. R. 0. Neeld,.John
Bagshaw, John Goulburn. Henry Newdegate, N.
Baines, M. T. Graham, Sir James Newry, Viscount
Bankes, G. Granby, Marquis of Sieholl, John
Baring, 11. B. Greene' Thomas O'Brien, Sir Lucius
Baring, Sir F. Grey, Sir G. Packe, C. W.
Bateson, Thomas Grey, It. ST. Paget, Lord Clarence
Beckett, W. . Grogan, Edward Pakington, Sir J.
Bentinck, Lord H. Halsey, T. I'. Palmer, Robert
iseresford. William Hamilton, 0. A. ' Parker. John
Boldero, H. G. Hamilton, J. H. Patten, W.
Bowles, Admiral Hamilton, Lord C. Peel, Sir Robert
iramston, T. W. Harris, Captain Pennant, Colonel
Bremridge, Richard Hawes, Benjamin Plowden, W. H.
Brisco, M. Hay,:Lord John Pluinptre, J. P.
Broadley, 11. Ilayes,:Sir E. Price, Sir Robert
Bromley, Robert llayter, W. G. Reid, Colonel
Brooke, Sir A. B. Ileneage, G. H. W. Repton, G. W. J.
Burrell, Sir C. Herbert, 11. A. Rich, Henry
Cardwell, E. Herries,-John C. Romilly, Sir John
Cavendish, W. G. Hervey, Lord A. Rushout, Captain
Chichester, Lord J. Hildyard, It. C. Russell, E. -
Childers, J. W. Iliiiiyard, T. B. Itptherfard, A.
Christopher, R. Hill, Lord E. Scrope, G. P.
' Christy, Samuel llobliouse, Sir John Seymour, Sir H.
Cobbold,- J. C. Hodgson, W. N. Sheridan, R. B.
Cocks, 'l'. q. • • -Hood, Sir A. .. Simeon, John
Colvile, C. R. Hope, A. Smyth, J. G.
Compton, li. C. Hallam, Lord Somerville. Sir W.
Corry, H. Howard, Sir R. Sotheron, T. H. S.
Cubitt, William Jermyn, Earl Spooner, Richard
Darner, Colonel Jervis, Sir John Stattnrd, Augustus
Deedes, W. Johnstone, Sir J. Stuart, H.
Denison, J. E. Jones, Captain Stuart, J.
Disraeli, B. tier, Richard Taylor, r. E.
Duckworth, Sir J. Knox, Colonel Thesiger, Sir F.
Dundas, Admiral Labouchere, Henry- Townshemi„ captain
Dundas, Sir David Lacy, D. C. Turner, G. J.
Dunne, F. P. Lascelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J.
Du Pre, C. G. Legh, G. C. Vesey, T.
East, Sir J. B. Lewis, George C: Villiers, Viscount
Ebrington, Viscount Lewl,ham, Vii. Vivian, J. E.
Egerton, Sir P. . Lindsay, Colonel Walpole, S. li.
Egerton, W. T. Littleton, E. R. Walter, John
Elliot, John E. Lockhart, W." Watkins, Colonel
Esicourt, J. B. B. Lopes, Sir Ralph Wellesley, Lord C.
Farnham, E. B. Lygon, Gen. Williamson, Sir R.
Ferguson, Sir It. Martin, C. W. Wilson, James
Fitzpatrick, J. W. Maule, Fox Wilson, Matthew
Floyer, John Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wodehouse, E.
Forbes, Wm. Miles, P. W. S. Wood, Sir Charles
Fox, S. L. Miles, William Wyld, James
Freestun, Colonel Morgan, 0. Young, Sir John
Frewen, C. 11. Morris, David
Galway, Viscount Mullings, J. R. TELLERS.
Gladstone, W. E. Mundy, William . Tana, Henry
Gooch,.E. S. Naas, Lord Cowper, W. F

M. Cook
A. Boyce

GENERAL EDUCATION AND EX
TENSION OF THE FRANCHISE.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
SIR,—In order to give the greatest impetus possible
to the spread of voluntary education among the
poorer classes, let the test of qualification for exer-
cising the elective franchise be an educational one and
not a property one; or, in other words, "give the vote
to a man because he is a man, not because he has
purchased some earth or some bricks and mortar."
It will be admitted by all that an educated man is
better qualified to exercise the elective franchise than
an uneducated man, but the difficulty is, if education
is to be the test, where to draw the line of demarca-
aon between the one and the other. To remove this
difficulty, let every man (not being a pauper nor con-
victed of crime) who can solve correctly rule of three
questions in arithmetic have a vote. Thus the line
would be clearly defined, the principle of universal
iuffrage in its only healthy aspect would be adopted,
and the vote given to a man because he is a mar?.
In going through this test he wouP show
his ca-
pability to read, write, and use his reasoning facul-
ties, all of which must certainly be deemed necessary
qualifications qualifications for an independent voter, andl all
thwill.chh,
being within the reach of the poor as we as e ric ,
would not, in that respect, be.le to the same ob-
jection as a property qualification.
Now, to show that this qualification would bring in
apriensoernet intelligent
trcileadssbyof t
ivoterstest toth.
nalnorwroe
wh,have
oualdt
ip,rdessternutc,klomffatyhevreengt
blurt: r t;obaustsetortuthvaetthoenme-hfraolmf of the
& disfranchised, and to let the influence of the
property

qualification remain during the lives of the present
voters, I would suggest that they should all remain
on the register during the remainder of their lives,
but that all new candidates for the elective franchise
should be examined by the rule-of-three test, and then
that they, like the old voters, when once on the
register, should remain there for life.
The suffrage would thus be gradually and safely
extended as education became more widely d4used,
the greatest and best portion of the working classes
would be satisfied, and what is more important still, a
most powerful impetus would be given to the poor to
use every endeavour to get themselves and their chil-
dren educated by every means in their power, as it
would then soon be felt to be a disgrace to be excluded
from the franchise, the principal excluding causes
being ignorance and crime.
France is a sufficient warning to make us pause
before we adopt universal suffrage without universal
education ; and unlimited household suffrage would, I
think, be little better, as it would not only bring in
many uneducated men, but it would shut out num-
bers who are intelligent and well educated, but who
happen not to be householders.
If you can at any time spare room for this commu-
nication in your columns, as one of the working
classes I shall feel obliged, as I am anxious that their
condition should be improved, and I think that a
judicious extension of the franchise ought to be the
first important step in that direction.
I am, Sir, yours obediently,
\VM. \VRIGIITSON.
Thorne, Yorkshire, July 9, 1849.

TO THE SECRETARY OF THE
METROPOLITAN REFORM ASSOCIATION.
Sir,—On Monday night the principal debate was on
the Scotch Marriages Bill. The ostensible object is to
take steps for assimilating the Scottish law of marriage
to the English. But the substantial object is to deprive
Englishmen and Irishmen of the liberty arising out of
the ancient Scottish institution of Gretna Green. It
may appear ridiculous, but this is all there is in it. It
is an attempt to draw closer the laws for what Addison
or Steele in their day called " the preservation of the
female game."
Nobody doubts that game.preservers in general are a
hotheaded and incapable race, exceedingly likely to be
found overshooting their own m irk, and cutting the
throat of their own interest. And there is no appearance
of the pr.-server's of the female game making any
exception to tie rule. Let the case be fairly examined,
and see what it is that is contended for. A wealthy
Englishman, a squire of broad acres, sees danger in any
loophole for relaxation of the laws by which he has se..
cured certain powers over the marriage of his descend-
ants. Boys do not often insist on juvenile marriage;
they prefer their liberty. It is his girls for whom
he tears ; and the idea which haunts him is, that they
will be led into marriage by some man whose acres or
whose position in society shall not be cone spondent
to
his own. There shall be no attempt to deny the
evil ; undeniably it is what a man may justifiably
endeavour to resist. But is he taking the way
to diminish the danger? Suppose the case of such
an untoward event disturbi, g the drawing -room
tranquillity of a well-regulated family. A daughter,
unable to resist the attentions of " her heavy dragoon,"
has consented to marry Lieutenant Spanker who so
much distinguished himself in the last steeple-chase,
without waiting for legal age or parents' consent.
And the lieutenant of her choice shall neither
be a Sir Charles Grandison nor a reprobate, but what
is commoner than either, a man who would not do
a wrung gratuitously, and yet not above the lia-
bility of yielding to temptation if forced upon him.
He carries off the daughter; and under the existing
state of things, the next post but one brings a penitent
letter from the two whom a Gretna Green marriage has
made one, hoping forgiveness, and the military leader in
particular coveting nothing so much as to be asked to
take wive by his new governor under the governor's own
mahogany.
But suppose the squire to have carried the alteration
in the law, the literary corrmunications then take a
very different turn. Instead of the swift advertisement
that nothing is wanted but forgiveness, in a long week
comes a letter, transmitted through the porter of the
Junior United Service and suggesting an answer through
the same irreproachable functionary, stating the ear-
best desire of the military partisan to have
immediately married Miss --, but regretting that
he found it to be impossible. Without the smallest wish
of his own, he finds he must keep her for a fortnight,
which is the shortest time within which the law will
give his conscience ease; and in the meantime he ex-
presses an anxiety to know what the sEctionate parent
will do towards encouraging him in the good resolutions
be is treasuring tor the conclusion of that period. He
assures him his daughter is well; and thinks she finds
the country agreeable.
Is the condition of this respectable family mended, or
is it not?
The Bill was so near being thrown out (being saved
only by a majority of 73 against 68), that there is every
probability of its being given up. But nominally it
stands for discussion again on Thursday.
On fuesday the motion for a Committee on the Irish
Church occupied the whole of the eight. It something
is not done, what is to be the result when fifty thou-
sand Americans are threatening Windsor Castle? The
debate, with few exceptions, was conducted with great mo•
deration, sin index et approaching action on the subject.
And this exp ctation was encouraged by a divii.un of
03 in support of the Committee, to 170 aeainst it.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
AN OLD REFORMER.
London, July 11, 1849.

ROYAL THAMES REGATTA.
FIRST DAY.
Th© great national aquatic nit„eting at Putney, which
has been the all engros.ing topic of conversation for

some time past, commenced yesterd:iy, and was more

than usually attractive. Although this event has for a
considerable period formed the chief feature of the season
there seems to be an opinion afloat that its existence is
near its close, the principal causes assigned for its discon-
tinuance being the gradual &cline of the funds, and the
difficulty of finding persons willing to incur the trouble
and responsibility necessary to produce a regatta of this
" Leviathan" character, with anything like a proper
degree of spirit. As similar rumours have been previ-
ously rife with respect to the discontinuance of this aquatic
festival,many persons are sanguine enough to look forward
to our next year, but others, well acquainted with river
sports, entertain an opinion that, under the direction of
the Leander Club, who were mainly instrumental in es•
tablishing this regatta, in 1843, air] upon whom much of
the responsibility has fallen, a series of periedical races
during the summer will be produced. Be
that as it may, we deeply regret that
there should be even a rumour of its discon-
tinuance—it is purely a British pastime, and ought to be
supported by all who value our national sports, and it
cannot be said that the example of royalty is wanting,
as the name of Prince Albert is amongst the most liberal
of ifs support•rs. Should the present Hon. Sec. (Mr.
Fells), one of the Leinder Club, who has, for upwards
of three years, discharged the onerous duty most effi-
ciently, retire, the interests of the rrgatts, there can be
no doubt, will bo most seriously affected, but it is to be
hoped that he may be induced to continue his valuable
services.

The weather was extremely fine, and the company by
far exceeded in numbers the assemblage of the last two
or three years; indeed, since the establishment of the
regatta, we may safely say tint wo never saw a greater
number of boats afloat, while Putney and Hammersmith
Bridges, and every other place, from which a view could
be obtained of the rowing, including the vast extent of
towing-path, was crowded with anxiou, spectators, and
the river and shores presented a coup d'ceil of the most
animated descrip ion.
There were eleven races upon the card, presenting the
variety of from fours down to sculls. Tho sports com-
menced at half-past three, and continued up to nearlyer
eight in the evening; the regulations throughout w
e
admirable, and reflect the utmost credit upon the Secre-
tary and Committee.
Champion Four Oared Race for IGO soya., open to all
the world.

sc. Agnes, London and Newcastle .. (Green) 1
It. Coownes R. Clap er
T. Coombes I H. Cla. per
J. Clasper, cockswain.
Watermen's Crew, Oxford

(Purple) 2

I W. Venabies
W. Penn
W. Weft, cockswain.

Toe Perseverance, Chelsea ... (Stripe) 0
T. Chettle
I
T. Holmes
G. Hesler B. Herring
W. Godwin. cockswain.
This was the great event of he day. In this race,
open to all the world, there had been a union between
the Thames and the Tyne, the St. Agnes's crew consist.
ir.g of the champions of the two rivers and their
brothers; and opposed to them were a crew of London
watermen, who had last year, owing to an unfortunate
circumstance, been deprived of the opportunity
of testing the claim of superiority, and who
now again stood forth, a crew fro.n Durham,
and two others. The Claspers and Coombeses are
known as opponents against each other in a pair-oar
wager about two years ago, when the Coombeses were
victorious over their two coadjutors of yesterday. It 16
said that circumstances, not inclination, exactly cul'ducttel,
to the union on the part of Coombes. The celebrity
this
Claspers had acquired in their victoriesformereeonthe p a
ar,
port, and the fair claim to superior exceliten he
head of the
heeid rof the " national," placed this crew
was
list as the favourites, and when it
daily practice, for the last weekor so,asthia6tunthdeybyrotw
with great regularity, and were not affected by
each other's style, they were backed at even against the
field.
The race extended from Putney to Chiswick Ait. Tho
winners
took the lead and kept it well, coming in first
by two lengths. The Oxford and Chelsea crew made a
gallant race of it for some distance, when the Oxonians
want away, and although at lianunersmith-brids,ge, they
fouled a barge, and broke a thawl, they continued their
position.

Second Heat.
The" Never-mind it," London ... .
Alq I
iinnny Newiil..
Doubludee Pocock
W. Cox, Cockswain.
The Feathers Crew, WaudswoNh ... (Pink) 2
T. J• rues I G. Cowper
J. Salter 1 G. Salter
S. Salter, Cockswain.
Itazeppa Crew, Durham ..• (Yellow and Black) 0
W. Foster W. Howson
W. G. Mo I n H. Eddy
W. :ureter, Cockswain.

(Red) 1