The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-20 00:00:00

hear.) Much had been said with respect to the Noble Duke
(Wellington) having acted upon the Quadruple Treaty, and having
undertaken the responsibility of fulfilling its conditions. When the
Noble Duke came into office he found the treaty in existence, and he
acted in the same way as would have been pursued by the Govern-
ment of any country. He found the treaty in existence, and he con-
tinued to act upon it. In the disposition that had distinguished every
act of that Noble Duke's life he found that treaty in existence, and
he performed its conditions, not Is the spirit, but according to the letter
of the treaty.—( Hear, hear.) He (Lord Lyndhurst) had stated to their
Lordships that he was opposed to intervention. But if intervention
did under any circumstances take place it ought to be of a character
far different from that which had taken place. It was the opinion
of those most capable of judging on such a subject that there never
was an expedition so ill-judged or so ill conducted as that which
had been sent from this country under the alleged terms of this
treaty. He did not wish to say anything in disparagement of the
personal bravery of General de Lacy Evans, the commander of
those troops, but he would say that the command of those
forces ought not to be given to an officer who he (Lord Lynd-
hurst) believed had never before commanded a regiment, or even a
company in the field. Was it then possible, under these circumstances,
to expect any result from an expedition so constituted but that which
had taken place ? Was it not an extravagant proceeding on the part
of the Government to send out an expedition of that kind ? The military
renown of the country was a portion of its proudest glory, and it was
then the more incumbent upon us to take care that renown should not
suffer, or that the high fame of our arms should not be impaired. It was
predicted by those of the most experience that this expedition must fail.
Amongst others by whom this prediction was made at the time this ex-
pedition was fitting out was an officer of great experience, who had
served for a long time in Spain (Sir J. Elley). That Gallant Officer,
at an early period, pointed out what must be the result of that expedition,
and si mens non lawn fuisset, the Government would have saved the

country at the last hour from the misfortune and disgrace of this disas

trous expedition. He would say a few words with respect to the af-
fair of Hernani. Every one who was in the engagement knew that
the failure of that operation was attributable to the General in
command having taken up a faulty position for his troops, of which cir-
cumstance Villa Real and Don Sebastian availed themselves with a
celerity and energy which turned the fortunes of the day, and eventuated
in the defeat of the troops engaged in the attack. He well remem-
bered when this question was debated on a former occasion that the
Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Affairs was pressed with argu-
ments similar to those which had been used on the present occasion,
and he answered that it was impossible that more could be effected, at so
little expense. Was it fitting that this pitiful Inggestion of a miserable
saving should be resorted to as a vindication of the policy of this great
country in a case involving her relations with foreign countries ?
(Hear, hear,) When the character and greatness of this country were
concerned, any policy resting on such greunds was only worthy
of the name of a peddling and miserable policy.—(Hear, and
loud cheers.) When General Evans returned to this country,
and when the expedition was over, the wreck of the Legion
who remained in St. Sebastian were insulted by the Spanish
Government, by that Government which they had gone to Spain to pro-
tect. There were certain cases in which the delay of justice amounted
very nearly to the denial of justice, and this case seemed to come very
close to that class of cases. Let them look to what other States had done,
and how they had acted in similar cases. Let them look to France.
Whenever she interfered in behalf of her subjects she interfered in ear-
nest. He did not mean to say but that there were several instances in

which that country might have gone too far, but, whatever mistakes
she might have made in this respect, she unquestionably never erred in
being guilty of negligence, indifference, or supineness, where the in-
terests of her subjects were involved with other States. He wished, be-
fore he concluded, to say one word with respect to our naval co-operation.
He did not mean for one moment to call in question the manner in which
the naval force engaged on the coast of Spain had performed their
duties. He believed that those duties had been performed with
that skill and characteristic bravery wkich had always distin-
guished the naval forces of this country. But he would say
that he had reason to believe that orders had been sent out by the Ad-
miralty, directing our ships en the eastern coast of Spain to take some
frigates which were supposed to be carrying stores from Sardinia for the
service of Don Carlos. If he was incorrect in his statement, he chal-
lenged the Noble Earl opposite (Earl Minto) to contradict him. It was
fortunate (if we understood correctly the Noble and Learned Lord) that
no opportunity had offered for obeying those orders, for, if it had so
happened, consequences might have arisen which the country would
have reason to regret. But, he would ask, in favour of whom had the
Government of this country used all those exertions, and rendered all
those sacrifices of the national honour and interests ?—(Hear, hear.) In
favour of a people who, under the name of liberty, had perpetrated more
acts of atrocity, assassination, and murder, than any other civilised
people since the period of the French revolution.—(Hear.) He did not
speak with respect to military movements, but to murders perpetrated in
civil commotion or in private violence by one party upon another. He
alluded to what had taken place in the cities and towns of Spain, where the
convents had been invaded by violence, and their helpless inmates sacri-
ficed to brutal fury. He need only refer to the atrocities that had
been perpetrated in Malaga, and to the murders in Barcelona, where

prisoners
had been murdered in confinement. Let them still more call
to witness the murders that had been committed in the capital—in
Madrid, under the very eyes of the Government.--(Hear, hear, hear.)
What had they achieved by their intervention ? They had one day the,
vacillating and uncertain policy of M. Zea, to be the next day succeeded
by a different system established under Martinez de la Itosa. Then
came the period when the independent Junta, by the assent of the army,
imposed Menclizabal upon the Queen of Spain. Then came the juste
milieu and S. Isturiz, and finally the meeting of the troops at La
Granja to proclaim a new Constitution. This was a brief and hurried
outline of the shifting uncertain condition of the people for whom the
Government had thought it right and fitting lo sacrifice the treasure,
the honour, and the glory of this country. In doing so they had pur-
sued a conduct and a policy which lie had always felt it Ids duty to
condemn. That conduct and policy he was certain their Lordships
must also feel bound to condemn; and he felt equally certain that
a conduct and a policy so ill conceived and so ill directed must
equally meet with, as it undoubtedly deserved, the unqualified condemna-
tion of the country.—(Loud cheers.)
The Earl of CARN ARVON said that the expedition out of which
the debate had arisen did not deserve to succeed, as it was not framed on
any just or reasonable calculations. The Noble Viscount had alluded to
the Durango decree. Now, he certainly would deeply regret if, in any
instanceonercy had been refused to any person under that decree. But
the Carlists held that the soldiers of the Legion were not included in the
Eliot convention ; but it was due to them to say that, though they en-
tertained that opinion, they endeavoured to carry the objects of that
convention into elf ct by means of a cartel. All the predictions in
which the Noble Lord and his colleagues had indulged respecting Don
Carlos had been falsified. Nothing was easier than to indulge in pre.
dictions, but those who did so had not always the good fortune to find
their forebodings verified. It had been said that one object of the
policy pursued by the Government was to promote an alliance with
France; but, if that had been the object he denied that it had been
attained ; for was it not clear that, as regarded Spain, the King of the
French had not kept faith with this country ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Now what, he asked their Lordships, was the result of this policy ?
Why, the Durango decree was the first fruits of it. Since their acces-
sion to office the principle on which the Government declared they
would not was that of keeping pace with civilization ; but hal they
acted on this principle in their interference in the affairs of Spain ?
Undoubtedly they hail lint. They had suffered British subjects to en-
gage in the trade of blood and misery from motives the most sordid and
unworthy, and by permitting this, instead of acting on their own prin.
ciple, her Majesty's Ministers had caused a retrogade and not an ad-
vance in that civilization with which they had so frequently declared
their policy should be directed to keep pace.—(Hear.) Would the
Noble Viscount, he asked, deny that time object of the interference on
the part of the Government of this country was not to deprive the
Basqueprovinces of their privileges ?
Viscount MELBOURNE—I will deny nothing of the kind. We
had no wish whatever to interfere with the privileges of the Basque
provinces.

The Earl of CARNARVON said he was glad to hear this, because it
led him to conceive that the Noble Viscount would join him in pre-
venting the suppression of the privileges of the Basque provinces.—
(Hear, hear.) Were, however, the Government of this country justified
in allowing, as they had done, a naval co-operation for the purpose of
desolating and destroying that part of Spain? The effect of this co-
operation w'as to extirpate the Basque people, as they would so many
wild beasts, from the face of the earth ; but was such conduct worthy of
that character which ought to be maintained by the rulers of a Christian
people ?--(Hear, hear.) This contest had now existed for five years,
and the scenes of horror which had occurred during that period were
well calculated to excite sorrow in every Christian mind. He did
think the time had arrived when such a state of things should be put
an end to, but then this could only be done by other means than the
interference which had been adopted.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Noble Marquis and the
Noble Lord had cony.: forward that night to insinuate censures against
the Queen's Government, which they would not put into the form of a
distinct and substantive vote; and, recollecting the years that had
elapsed since the Quadruple Treaty was entered into, it was surprising
that the Noble and Learned Lord, who had attributed such lamentable
consequences to it, had not, in the spirit of foresight which actuated
him, earlier given their Lordships the benefit of his knowlodge of those
mischiefs which must arise from a treaty which he now so much con-
demned. The Noble and Learaed Lord who had foretold these conse.
quences ought to have informed their Lordships to a greater extent on
the subject before that night than he had done, for he appealed to those
who heard the statement of the Noble and Learned Lord, whether they
did not suppose that be was speaking of some dire catastrophe which
had befallen the councils of the Government of the Queen of Spain ?
Lord LYNDHURST—I used the one word, and not the other, but
not in the sense the Noble Marquis assumes.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—AII I can say, my Lords, is, that
my attention was called particularly to the word " catastrophe."
Lord LYNDHURST—WeII, but what becomes of the word " dire ?"

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE--I did not certainly hear the Noble
and Learned Lord use the word " dire," though I did distinctly the
word " catastrophe."

Lord LYNDHURST—I used the word "catastrophe," my Lords,
at the outset of my speech, as denoting termination, in the classical
sense of that word.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (with warmth)—My Lords, I ac-
cept the explanation of the Noble and Learned Lord, and ask your
Lordships whether the termination that has taken place can be regarded
as a dire catastrophe ?

_
Lord LYNDHURST (interrupting)—.l say, my Lords, I did not
use the word catastrophe in the sense the Noble ➢larquis seems to
suppose•_(Cries of " Order, order.") I did not use the word dire
at all, and I employed the word catastrophe to indicate a mere termi-
nation or winding up of the catastrophe of a drama, for instance.—
(Cries of " Order.")

- -
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (with great vehemence both of
voice and gesticulation, and amidst renewed cries of " Order, order")—
my Lords, I thought the Noble and Learned Lord had risen to order,
and not to interrupt me, and I gave him the opportunity of doing so,
but I now tell him that I will not give way to him.—(Cries of " Order.")
Lord LYNDHURST—My Lords, I thought the Noble Marquis had
put a question to me, and wished that I should answer it.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (apparently much excited, and with
increased vehemence)—My Lords, I appeal to you whether the Noble
and Learned Lord is not out of order?—(Cries of " Order.")
Lord LYNDHURST (interrupting)—My Lords, I mu,t deny that
I have done anything more than is common in your Lordships' House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Yes, common, but common only
by permission. The Noble and Learned Lord has thought fit to inter-
rupt me in my speech, although he would have hail anllpportunity of
explaining anything lie wished when I had done; and I will not admit
that either the Noble and Learned Lord, or any other Member of your
Lordships' House, has any such right as that of interrupting me when
I am addressing your Lordships.—(Cries of " Order," and " Hear,
hear.") My Lords, I will not submit to be so interrupted by the Noble
and Learned Lord, for, however learned he may be, I know of no rule
of your Lordships' House which enables either the Noble and Learned
Lord, or any other of your Lordships, to interrupt against his will a
person who is in the act of speaking, and the more especially as the
Noble and Learned Lord will have an opportunity of addressing to your
Lordships any observations he may have to make on what has fallen
from me when I have concluded what I have got to say. When I sat
down I did so for the purpose of affording the Noble and Learned Lord
an opportunity of speaking to order, but he did not do so, and I now re-
peat that I will not give way to him again.
Lord LYNDHURST (interrupting)—The Noble Marquis may just do
as he thinks proper.—(Loud cries of " Order, order.")
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (with increased vehemence)—The
Noble and Learned Lord has thought fit to interrupt me again. I--
Lord LYNDHURST—What I rose for was to say that I never ut-
tered the " dire." Had I not a right my Lords, to take care that the
Noble Marquis did not misrepresent what I had said.—(Cries of " Hsar,
hear," and " Order, order.")
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE (still apparently under the influence