The Sun.
London, England, 1825-05-11 00:00:00

6

the inhabitants of Manchester were favourable to Catholic
Emancipation.
Mr. PEEL, said, he did not think it advisable to trouble the
House with any details about the various petitions which he
presented on the great question of Catholic Emancipation, as
he held no correspondence with the petitioners, and did not ex-
ercise the slightest controul over their judgments. But the
terms in which the present petition had been spoken of by the
Hon. Gentleman, required a brief explanation from him. He
did not introduce it as the petition of the inhabitants of Man-
chester ; he merely said, that it was the petition which the
Hon. Member could not deny—" of certain undersigned inha-
bitants in the town and neighbourhood of ill ancliester."—( Hear,
hear !)—lt was not adopted at a public meeting ; but the fault
did not lie with the petitioners. Certain of them applied to the
Boroughreeve of Manchester for leave to convene a public
meeting ; and that officer advised them not to take that step.—
( Hear !)—He admitted that boys had signed the petition;
but this had originated in the designs of certain individuals,
in order to induce the House to receive it with distrust.—
(Hear, hear!)
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE observed, that the public meeting
which adopted the opposite petition was attended by such a
body of Catholics that it was net possible for any pesons who
opposed their wishes to obtain admittance.—( Hear !)
Mr. B. WILBRAHAM said, the Magistrates of Lanca-
shire maturely and firmly thought that the granting of the
Catholic Claims would be injurious to the interests of the
country.
Mr. PEEL and Mr. Puitirs mutually explained.
Lord APSLEY said, the petition, whether subscribed at a
public meeting, or by persons in their individual capacity, was
equally entitled to the consideration of the House. •
Lord STANLEY was surprised that the Magistrates should
have subscribed the petition in their judicial character. It was
not the custom of the Gentlemen who sat on the Bench to pur-
sue the course which they had taken, and therefore it was with
pain and regret he saw that they had swerved from that prac-
tice on this important question, which related to the peace and
tranquillity of the empire, and the happiness and content of
so large a portion of its subjects.
All of the above petitions were read, and ordered to be
printed.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from certain Inha-
bitants in Manchester, which was adopted at a public meeting
convened on the authority of the boroughgreeve and constable
of the town.
After a few words from Mr. PHILIPS and General Gas-
COYNE, the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Iteport of the Thrown
Silk Repeal Bill, which was read and agreed to.
The further consideration of the Reports of the Customs
Laws. Repeal Bill, the Board of Customs Management Bill,
the Navigation Laws Bill, the Smuggling Preventive Bill,
the Goods Warehousing Bill, the Customs Regulatiun Bill,
and the Isle of Man Trade Bill, was postponed to Monday
next. _ _ _

The further consideration of the Report of the Irish Exche-
quer Bills Bill was postponed to Friday next.
Sir F. BURDETT presented a petition from the Parish of
Ardcrony, in the barony of Lower °monde- county of Tip-
perary, in favour of the Roman Catholic claims. The petition,
the Hon. Bart. observed, was signed indiscriminately by Pro-
testants and Catholics, and afforded a strong proof of that spirit
of conciliation which was beginning to make its appearance in
Ireland, and which would he trusted be soon diffused through-
out the whole of that country. The petition was ordered to be
printed.
HERRIES brought in a bill to provide for the purchase
of the remaining customs and immunities of the Isle of Man,
and also any reserved sovereign rights which may be vested in
his Grace John Duke of Athol.—Read a first time, and ordered
to be read a second time on Friday next.
Mr. HERMES brought in a bill for the Registry of British
vessels.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Friday next.
CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

31r. CURWEN moved the Order of the Day, for the third
reading of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill. The Hon. Men,-
her said he should express very shortly his opinion upon the
question. It had been said that the majority of the people of
this country were hostile to the measure; but, in the county
which he had the honour to represent, he had the satisfaction
of knowing that there was a great preponderance of feeling in
favour of granting the rights of the Roman Catholics. fie ap-
prehended no danger from passing the present Bill ; but, on
the contrary, he believed the country would gain increased se-
curity, and the Church increased strength, by removing the ex-
clusive distinctions now in existence. Knowing how much the
great body of the Protestant Clergy were to be respected, he
could not help regretting to see them opposed to the granting
of these indulgencies to the Catholics. He visited Ireland with
many prejudices, which were completely removed by the expe-
rience he acquired in communicating with the people. There
was no people, he believed, on the face of the earth, in whom
the social affections were stronger than in the Irish. The Hon.
Member then de,cribed a change from feelings of animosity to
those of union and concord in a town in Ireland, arising from
reciprocal kindness and forbearance between the different re-
ligious classes ; and said that if one of the " No Popery" gen-
tlemen chalkers ventured to appear there, he would be hooted
out of the place. He should cordially vote for the third read-
ing of the Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS commenced by observing, that a change in
the spirit of the Church of Rome had been contended for by
those who supported this measure, but that he could see no-
thing in the evidence given before the Committee which war-
ranted the belief that any such change bad been effected. He be-
lieved that spirit to beunchanged and unchangeable. The church
of Rome had been the persecutor and enemy of all the great
masters of the human mind, and continued to this day her sys-
tem of proscription against every thing calculated to extend
the progress of knowledge and reason. Ile held in his hand a
list of the books now proscribed in the south of Europe where
the Catholic religion still retained its influence. The works of '
Bacon, which were proscribed in the year 1669, remained so
still. This was fifty years after their publication, so that it
must be supposed their existence had not been known for that
period. Perhaps, in the course of fifty years hence, when the
names of Dugald Stewart or William Paley should also get to
be heard in those countries, they too would he placed under
the ban of Roman Catholic proscription. The Hon. Member
then enumerated among the works proscribed in Catholic
States—Locke on the Human Understanding,Milton's Paradise
Lost, Copernicus (alluding to the revival of the sentence of
Galileo) the Newtonian Philosopher, the Jurists, Grotius and
Puffendorf, Fenelon, Pascal, and others. Could it then be
said that the spirit of the Church of Rome had changed when
she continued the persecution of every great master of the hu-
man mind, and when an excellent library might be formed from
the books which she proscribed :--(llear, hear !)-11e thoutrbt
it was clear, then, that upon whatever ground this Jill
might he supported, it could not stand upon that of a change of
spirit in the Roman Catholic Church. Thelate Pope had beeti
called the most Protestant Pope that ever sat in the chair, and he
had always professed to be grateful to the English for the resto.
ration of the works of art, and for their other services in wrest-
ing the Continent from the grasp of its Tyrant. Vet, when
he was applied to by the English Residents in Rome for leave
to perform the Protestant worship in a chapel of their own, he
could not stem the torrent of intolerance with all his power,
but was obliged to refuse them. The English Protestants were
and amongst others allowed to perform their worship in one of their own drawing-
rooms ; but they were not recognised, there way no toleration,
answer was this:—
they were only allowed to do so by connivance. When the
e
~t(eti(3lri welfares t
same Pope was a prisoner in the heart of France, in the hands
de-
mandedt
nceer tdaei nmt
oralenegrdaustliailninotnr
oasrl
loafwIl(0-:10.sehvl
ieigprinsoi,,nnhsea.)
shall be
Theelie,o,l
rsbips,
of the then Ruler of that Empire, whose character was suffi-
ciently well known, the Emperor wished to obtain his assent
as
ofwSittlal tense,
lainald..t,h—e
teh(ooiact Int -cc; :111,erecrhoeni
was
reaatsriyst
it was said
beneath: its ruins---(
o
to
saintcdreitfl temple of the Con-
stitution theia n contrary
ot
ct the
Religion,oll s
oangsntitpaorhtirnetyt
to ro:aaforrtylihtiohnte,
tranquillity and happiness of the human ralehee.:
reli gui rininridirabei itnleiYdn obtained
Hear 1)—
quest
l ntay
roved
ould
nd to
power was re-
' asil;htneileAroti
u:stslala e'inoiwtrsni eruepela, foritehtirwtiao•riteuyt
pull
eti
wasiel' spirit
llwivbneesr tt yh
In new Governments and States where this
the ascendancy, nothing of its old spirit of intolerance wasie-
and eentendins. that the inOn-
. speeches and writing's of Dr. Doyle and
cognised. Every Deputy was compelled to swear to maintain
cognised. In the Cortes of Spain its exclusive
the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Religion,
and to
oentrasting Ahem with their evidence'betbre
prohibit every other. The same forms were observed in the
new State of Mexico. The Honourable Member then read
ipiasrs.aogels;ofirlonneli
I,tl
the ConaMiztee of the Uouse,

PRICE SBVENPF.tic;I",,,,

sistency entirely destroyed the value Of the latter. Wfie
lieved that the obtaining 'of the Catholic Claima ivai'hkt Erie
real object in the hearts'of those by viliotti- Such
put forward. In a former investigation-upon the. 'Stlbject'?l,
Dr. M'Nevin was. asked—" Do: you think the Penifie' 1t
-
land land care this penos this drop of ink Within it;' &PAR.,
lie Claims ?" His -answer was •" No."' Another wilt ws
similar evidence upon lire point. Oliver Biind beingiitatitineat4
-r:
said that the United Irishmen were associated for tlieiii&e'
obtaining liefonn, and not Catholic Etnaricipatitin. Miami
being asked—" Did the people care for -reforni .?" replifiß
" ; but those who- thought for theM did: Se the* 414
now thought for the people came forward al Attain
objects • and to do it would not hesitate to. ralSen-siortii'vibleit
they afterwards might be unable to Ode. If thilneaatiri*S7ii4
one of justice he should be ashanied to refttielf'niSiin'itii
ground of expediency. If it could be shewn • tohliN tkat the
power sought by the Catholics was an abstract right, 3rnefi AK
all the subjects of the realm were eittitle&to under paitieular
statutes, then never would-oppose it litifri''ahy.apprehetaion of
the consequences of concession. ProteetiOri 50as the right dill,
but power the right of no man.' "He agreed with' hiallOo.
Friend; the Member for C,orfe Castle;'that the COnatitutinit'sjas.
a system of exclusions and securities. And this excluSionliP'
peared to him to be the only security for the .protection' of the
established Protestant institutions of the country, - Heiair
thing-to change the opinions which he had entertained in
vate for the last twenty years, and' he should accordingly. vote
against the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. T WISS said, that although the opponents'of the measure
had mainly rested their argument upon the unalternblechatae-
ter of the Penal Laws, and notwithstanding the remarkable
theory of the Hon. Member for Corte Castle,' that the genius
of our Constitution was exclusive,--upon what branch of the
question had they hitherto,teinained unanswered. With the
indulgence of the House,/ he would address 'hirisself to that
which to him appeared one of the main topics involved in the
question. It must be recollected that these-disqualifications
from holding offics were not imposed upon the Catholics until
the time of Charles the Second. It was true that long befbte
that, certain severe penalties had been axed by statute against
Popish recusants.' But Lord Bacon lied said, that every na.
torah born subject possessed competencies and abilities to fill
all offices in the State. At the end of the reign of Charles
the Second, however, in the apprehension and terror ex-
cited by the Popish plot, tests were enacted which excluded
Papists from Seats in Parliament, for the purpose, as the
preamble stated, of rendering effective " divers good laws
against Popery," meaning the penalties against recusancy.
and of guarding against the danger with which the Protestant
ascendancy was menaced. Now these were exactly the laws
which they were told must be held inviolate—which must be
kept sacred, and which were unapproachable by the rude hand
of change. But what were these " divers good laws against
Popery," for whose enforcement the preamble of the Test
Acts declared them to be passed? Something. no doubt, which
they were bound constantly to support—something which they
ought affectionately to cherish—something which they must
piously revere ! No : they were the very penalties which bad
been repealed and swept away by the Act of 1791, the celebrat-
ed 31st of George lll.—(Hear. hear !)—lt was true, another
reason was put forward, and that was the danger. But grant-
ing that the danger then apprehended was *reef; admitting that
both the Popish plots were real, how could that argument Le
applied to a state of things like the present ? If he were toll
that the subsequent Acts passed in the reign of William, When
the same immediate danger no longer existed, his answer was.,
that the Protestant succession was still but doubtfully.
blished ; that every Catholic was supposed to be devoted_ to
James; and that the tests were intended to detect the .I:ice..
bite in the Catholic. But here they were told they stepped on
Constitutional ground, and were warned off as trespassers
upon the Constitution. Now, as he understood the spirit of
the Constitution, it was intended to grant to the subject aslargo
a share of civil rights as could be permitted consistently with
the necessary strength and power of the Government. He.be,
lieved it to be the peculiar nicety with which our Constitution
effected that object, that rendered it the best form of Govern-
•ment the world had ever seen. He did not mean to say that
there must be no exceptions to this principle in times of public
danger, and under particular emergencies. But when he
looked at the population of Ireland; and was told that the ex-
ception applied to five millions of men, and the rule to one ;
then he would say that either the rule became the exception,
or that the principle of' the Constitution was violated. They
were not to he called upon, because a code of laws had been
passed to suit the circumstances of 1815 or 1688, a° perpetuate
a system which shut out five millions ofpeaple from the Constl=
anion, and gave franchise only to one million. Upon those
who argued for such a state of thing,., he would retort the charge
of unconstitutional tendency, and thfy them to prove it con-
sistent with any principle of the Constitution. If the authors
of these Penal Laws could look upon the altered circumstances
of the country, who would venture to say that they would
pose their continuance? Let not the llouse; therefore be
poring over the letter of their law, but examine the spirit o!'
their Legislation. • Would it be said that all the laws.not-
pealed at the Revolution, or all those enacted by its anthOr4
were to perpetual and unalterable ? That would be tOo'ninSti
for the loosest understanding. They had already been altered
from time to time, until more had been taken away than Watt
left standing. What then became of the honour with' whzeh
the opponents of this measure pretended to view any alteratinrt'
of the acts of our ancesters. What idea of the- Constitiniim
would be entertained by the civilized world, it' it went forth that-
one of its effiorts was to prevent the transmission of those natiniii
advantages of' merit from the ancestor to his progeny ? was,
therefore, a stignia upon the country, that the only survivorii. of
the Barons who obtained Magna Charia, werefourCatholic Peers
now excluded from the civil privileges of theState.--(Hearl)=-Ile
lately heard it saidby an Hon. Member, that he approhendediht,
admission of the Catholics would be productive of simile results
to that exhibited in the Popish Parliament of Tyra:Moen:ln
which but a few Protestants were suffered to remain, and `in
which the majority of Catholics upheld effectually the intereat
of their religion. Now the inference he drew from- this fact
was, that a handful of Catholics in this Protestant. Parliament
would have no injurious effect either upon the State or the EMS.'
blishment.—(Hear !)—Let not Hon. Members talk of conced.'
••
ing those claims now to fear. At present there was riotluot to
dread ; but if a war sprung up, then danger indeed would-ar-
rive, and then he plainly told the House Emancipation would
be granted in consequence of that danger. For these and other
• similar reasons he congratulated the Hon. Baronet wh6
duced this Bill on the time he chose for it, as well as for the
judgment with which it was brought forward. Unless the'
were prepared to say that no ' time would he expedient for 'the
settlement of' the Catholic Question, a more auspicioint peiiiiet
for concluding the measure could not arrive than the preselit.
Ile concluded by quoting an extract from the wearable of lac
of Edward VI. in favour of Religious Toleration: -•-
Mr. HART DAVIS opposed the Bill. By: the 'CnnStifii.
tiit,wanasd
from
yhant proposition,ecessa rytlmt i
the
appearedeKin u
gshouol
testant an roes i.
table corollary that the Parliament and Council should be
testant also. Neither was the Roman. Catholic religion so sub.
Missive, that if those who professed it once poasessed. power,they would not encroach upon the eatablishmenta of the country-.
After twenty years, he confessed he still feared the Catholics,'
and should vote against the Bill, confident that he was-set-44
the best interests of' the country.
Mr. C. GRANT observed on rising, that this question h:od.
been so amply discusied during the present Session, thae' it
would be in vain for him-to hope that he could offer' any think
new to the House. He could not help regretting,' however, -
that it had been so slightly argued with reference to the peace_
and tranquillity of Ireland, which, in his opinion, was thetriie
ground on which the subject rested. He had. not had thegOoti-
fortune to hear the whole of the speech of the HOnoUt.
able Baronet (Sir H. Inglia); but ' in the part of it whick
he did hear, he was sorry to discover so little relative' rpm
the real state of Irelancl-.'-for he wished his Honourable'
Friend, instead of dwelling upon extrinsic 'circumstances, b4t;
.grappled with the real essence of 'the h6w
Parliament was to deal with that country in its actual situsitiont,'
—(Hear, hear )—Whoever had looked into' the Histiory Of ire s'
land for the last forty years, and viewed' that pint of the:United:
Kingdom as the strong arm of the empire, could not aignith;s;
question, unless with reference to the state of that island.'
(Hear !)—From the manner, however, in:which the opponents
of the measure discussed it, he must believe they neyer,seil.,
ously dwelt -on that consideration.. It watt said, that
they would concede a silk gown to a Catholic Barrister; end.
some other privileges of a like inferiority,: but he asked, when
Mx millions of our fellow-subjects canoe to demand-the're4to.
ration of their rights at the Bar of 'Parliament, was 'an offer of
such concessions the way 'to meet theirargumenis fairly? •He'
was also told, that if Hon: Gentlemen' believed Emancipatii6ac
would effect the peace and Iranqitilliii.iitltelanti, they
waive their icruples to attain that object. But this WAS inverting'