The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-11 00:00:00

SMALL DEBTS. •

Lord LINCOLN presented a petition from certain
iron-workers, traders, and others, praying for the repeal of
certain clauses of the Act of the 39th and 40th Geo. 111.
on the subject of small debts.
"EXCISE LAWS.
Sir R. BATESON presented a petition from Belfast in
favour of the alteration of the Excise Laws. The Com-
missioners of Poor Laws in Ireland had called attention to
the fact of grocers being allowed to :3cll spirits as one of the
most productive sources of crime.
OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH.

Mr. LEFROY presented a petition from Galway for die
better observance of the Sabbath.

Mr. Sergeant JACKSON pressented a petition, to the
sonic effect, from Bantry._

FACTORIES' Aft AMENDMENT BILL.

Lord DARLINGTON presented a petition against this
Bill.

Mr. GROTE presented a petition from the parishes of
Christchurch and St. Leonard's, praying an exemption from
residence on the part of rectors might no longer be conti-
nued, and that the Bill for regulating the duties of clergy
now in the upper House might be passed into a law.

(LEFT SITTING. )

DUBLIN ELECTION COMMITTEE
(THIS DAY.)

The Committee n:et this morning at 11 o'clock.
Mr. HUTTON proceeded to object to the vote of James
Baldwin, on the ground of bribery.
The evidence in this case was read at length, and after
some deliberation the Committee came to the following reso-
lution :

That from a careful review and compat ison of the evidence,
notwithstanding the unprincipled character of some of the
witnesses, and the suspicion thrown on the case by the sup-
pression of the voluntary affidavits so reprehensibly made, and
the fact of Payne and Murray having been summoned, but
not examined by the agent for the sitting Members, the
Committee are still of opinion that it is sufficiently estab-
lished that James Baldwin voted under an expectation of re-
ceiving money, and that money was subsequently paid, and his
vote must thet efore be struck off the poll."
This restored Mr. O'Connell's majority, and Counsel on
behalf of the petitioners proceeded to object to one of the
voters fur the sitting Member for arrear of Wide-street tax.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Mir 10.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.

Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition against cer4l:n
clauses in the Midland Counties Railway Rill.
On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE the Le'ce.,ter Small
Debts Bill was read a third time and passed.
IRISH TITHES BILL.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know what course the Noble Lord
intended to pursue with respect to the Irish Tithes Bill?
Lord J. RUSSELL wished rather to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet what course he meant to pursue ? He understood the
Right Hon. Bart. to say he thought it desirable that the Irish
Tithe Bill should not be read a second time till an opportunity
was afforded of sending it to Ireland, and obtaining some opi-
nion upon it. If that were still the view of the Right lion.

Baronet, there would not be suffieient time to send the Billinted
Ireland, and have it considered there before the holidays,
le! ( Lord John Russell) NOUIII In that case defer the seco
enn
reading till after the holidays—say to the 30th of the pres
take the same view of it, he I:ad no wish to postpone it.
month. on the coatrerv. the Right Hon. Bart. did not
Sir R. PEEL did take the same view of it, and that without
referenoe to this pertieular Bill, but to all Bills. When
mea-
sures of such importance 'xere brought fcrward, it was only fair
that a sufficient interval should he suffered to elapse to all?.we
of its recommendations to be taken into consideration. H
thought it better, therefore, that under present circumstances,
the second reading of this Bill should be deferred till after the
holydays.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it reasonable that the second
reading should be postponed ; and therefore he would make
no objection to it. He would postpone it to Yonday, the
30th of May, or to the od of June.
Sir R. PEEL thought that there was
at-
tendance on the first day of meeting, and that therefore one or
too days after would better suit the general convenience.
Lord J. RUSSELL would postpone it till Wednesday,
the Ist of June. generally a thin
OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. WARBURTON brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the fees, &c. of the officers of
the House.
Mr. HUME cave notice that he would, as soon as the Report
.
was printed, submit to the House a resolution, with a view ot
carrying it into effect, and of taking the opinion of the House
upon its recommendations.
TITLES TO ESTATES.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Order of the Day having been read for resuming the
debate on this question,
Mr. PEASE proceeded to address the House, but from the
noise occasioned by Hon. Members leaving their places, his
observations did not fully reach the gallery. He was under-
stood to object to the amendment, and to support the
original resolutions which was only, in his opinion, an
act of justice both, to the landed proprietors and to the rail-
way companies. He was surprised to hear the terms of the
amendment, which were in point of fact relieving the railway
companies from the contract into which they had entered, aml
which he trusted would not receive the assent of the House.
Mr. TOOKE said the object of the present proposition was
roortoutghleit tel
to protect landowners from the extortion of Railway Com-
panies,xi o eir
Zt
ai
Inw
aoyf Ctohionpainaniedsed propt ietors.
required some
protection
tibnut l
from
thought
re-
cord, and even so far back as the Liverpool and Manchester
Railway, a landowner, not content with obtaining an enormous
sum as compensation for what he considered an intolerable
nuisance, actually demanded and was paid 5,0001. to build his
There were many curious instances of that extortion 4fl
house elsewhere, alleging that he could not live so near the
railway ; and yet, after the railway was finished, he enlarged
his house, for the purpose of having a better view of it. The
landowners were fully capable of defending themselves, with-
out this additional protection, which would be in its operation
very injurious to the interests of public Companies.
Mr. HUME thought the matter was one of very great im-
portance, and ought to be well and seriously considered in a
Committee. He objected to both propositions as being tor,
exclusive.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would not agree to the
proposition of the Hon. Member who moved the resolutions,
though he could not support the amendment of the Member
for Truro.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY believed the question could be hot
considered in Committee. _ _

Sir M. W. RIDL E-Y
thought that the time of the HOUfie
would be saved by referring this Resolution to a Committee.
where it might be fairly and properly argued and decided.
He had no objection that it should be referred to the ores
Committee as the resolution of his Hon. Friend.
well
Mr. AGLIONBY thought the question was one
worthy the consideration of the House. He did not think
it a subject for a Committee. The question was ens
of principle, upon which, after a Committee of ten or
fifteen Members had decided, the House would be as winch
abroad as it was now.—(Hear.) The suggestion of the
Hon. Member, that there should be some plan to enable the
parties through whose land the railways should go, to make
a title, without going through that strict investigation whie"
was generally gone through where the parties were willing'•
vendor and vendee. He was surprised at the statements
of the Solicitor-General, that there was no necessity for the
provision proposed by the Hon. Member for South Durham.
because the law as it now stood enabled parties to re-
cover the sums to which they were found entitled by a Pill'
A jury was sammoned to decide, and in most cases they ee-
eided upon the value of the land before the title was
in-
vestigated. The title was the next matter that came into
consideration. He called upon the House to interfere il
some way, and he would leave with the House to say which
was the most likely to give that protection that ought to be
worded.
After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Mr.
HARLAND,

Mr. G. J. HEATHCOTE called upon the House to prc''
tect the vast number of small farmers and proprietors in th!
county he represented, whose property would be much affected
by the vast number of railways which passed through it.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division.
For the Resolution B4
Against it
Majority for the resolution

HAND-LOOM WEAVERS.
At the suggestion of Lord J. Russell, Mr. J. Maxwell, af-
ter a few observations from Lord D. Stuart, Mr. Potter, ae'
Mr. Warburton, postponed his motion on the condition of the
hand-loom weavers to Tuesday next.
INCLOSURE OF ARABLE FIELDS.
Mr. A. PELHAM obtained- leave to bring in a Bill to fa-
cilitate the inclosure of open and common arable fields to
England and Wales.
PARLIAMENTARY SURVEYS OF CHURCH
LANDS.
Mr. T. DUNCO MBE said that he did not feel disposed t°
accede to the suggestion of the Noble Lord for postponing
his motion relative to the Parliamentary surveys of the
Church lands preserved in the Library of Lambeth Pala,ce.t." -
Those dooumeots were of the greatest importance now t"'"7
the question of tithes was under the consideration of the Houses
inasmuch as they formed the connecting link between the
value of that property to which they referred as given
King's books and its actual value at the present time. .I"'
had been made by order of the long Parliament—consc:
quently they were the property of Parliament, and moreore'
the Archbishop of Canterbury admitted that they were de-
posited with him—that lie was the keeper of them—for the
Parliament. He (Mr. Duncombe) thought it neccssary4't
they should be in every Hon. Member's hands, embracing
they did much valuable information on a subject un.(.o dis-
cussion in Parliament, in place of individuals having to Pa.:,
two guineas for a single extract to the Archbishop's. secrets;
as thy were now obliged to do. He did not see how anY °ld
jection could be made to his motion, and he trusted he shetier
have the House with him in making it. The Hon. Me°l,-,is
concluded by moving for a copy of the Parliamentary ser'`lit
of Church lands preserved in the Library of Manuscript'
Lambeth.
Lord J. RUSSELL had expected that his flonoura
Friend would have evinced the same courtesy in postre'L
his motion as other Hem. Members bad, but as he did riot for
so he (Lord J. Russell) should briefly state his reasoroLe,
opposing it. He thought it was unnecessary in the first p_o'
claw
as according to his Hon. F'riend's own statement these
o_o
ments were not difficult of access to any one. In the
nese
place he saw no more reason for copying them at the,exPres of
of the country than he did for copying the parish regist?,iiar
any part of the kingdom, or those documents of a ?4.!--rio
nature in the Rolls Chapel, the Tower, and other depubit° it
of them. If his Hon. Friend's motion was acceded
tubers
to
would afford a plea and a precedent for other Hon. Mt.n the
to move for other records of the same character ; and by
end, all the records in the kingdom might be moved an
that means. The Noble Lord concluded by movings,
oIY ,4 .In,
gill amendment, that the order of the day for the House ',IL take
itself into a Committee on the Tithes Commutation B
precedence of all notices of motions.
Mr. FIUME supported the motion.
The Mr. J. JERVIS also supported the motion.
lie looked uTpOonßNitEaYs -GENERAL
necessary. ,1100
there appeared-- some further conversation the House divided,
ainnoatitioun:

For the motion,
--59
_._
Against it
Majority ...........
TITHES COMMUTATION BILL. .
The House went into Committee on the Tithes Co.
tion Bill.
On reading the 33(1 clause,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL placed in the hands of they lisii;
man the 33(1 clause, as it was proposed to be amende.
was in the following terms :—" And be it enacted, that ill
every case in which the Commissioners shall intend makiug
such award, notice thereof shall be given in such manner 115
to them shall seem fit ; and after the expiration of twenty-ene
ays, after such notice shall have been 'riven, the Commission;
d
ers, or some assistant commissioner, shall proceed to ascertain the
clear average value (after making all just deductions on accoku
of the expenses of collecting, preparing for sale, and mar e,I
ing) of the tithes of all the titheable produce of all lands 90 J.;
ject to tithe in the said parish, according to the
seven years preceding Christmas, in the year 1835 ; P (3,.
vided that if during till:said period of seven years, or aiyP beenpart
thereof, the said tithes or any part thereof, shall have :d
compounded for or demised to the occnpicr of any of the
tithed
lands, in consideration of any rent or payment instead of
n.O
averapre.l
the amount of such composition or rent, or sum agreed t
ob,.
paid instead of tithes, (including all unrcmitted arrears there y
shall be taken as the clear value of the tithes included in a.eic_ll
composition, demise or agreement, during the time for ?Ai;
the same shall have been made, and the commissioner or en 7
taut commissioner shall award the average value of ther,_e
years so ascertained as the sum to be talfen. for calculatingno z"
1 the
rent charge to be paid as a permanent conunutatio
0„.,e
said tithes ; provided also, that in estimating the valuer VIII
said tithes, the commissioners or assistant commissione ,p_n_.'o..,
estimate the same as as chargeable to all Pa.rliamentarYetnts"to
chial, county, and other rates, charges, and assessl.o hell
which tithes are liable ; and whenever the said tithesithenus
isi,_,i.
have been compounded for, on the principle of. such
yci .
0070.
Lion being paid, free from all such rates, charges, a- :_istat
inents, or any part thereof, the said commissioners ornis;i 00
mul‘tiart.iolin
commissioner shall have regard to that circumstance,
"
make a fair addition on account thereof." • the °ln'
of tire land. Now, if the corn laws were, b 1,181:. an acre,
,ÜbeAclaEusoebijtecdtiedd
it,ontthailslonmofdnro othfnesftninit:a7u.n.ds_eg,ped,
who
sooner or later lie expected, land paying,.nay L.
would probably fall to 10s.; and suppoeseido6o3
i seven yeah
average value of the tithes during the pre rweecriesttiohne

142 caostfl,in &Wl"'

oil

'b.

eitaere
the land was
a 183. per acre, the effect of this
ae would he to impose upon that land in its depreciated
State a tithe commutation equal to half the rental.
Lord J. RUSSELL was of opinion that no plan for the
commutation of tithes could be devised which was not open to
some objection, and unless they took a proportion of the rent,
be :6,6 believed scarcely any gentleman in that House would
inclined to acquiesce in, be did not see how the difficulty
was to be overcome. If, on the one hand, land might become
depreciated, it should also he remembered that other lands
would afiva, I‘ric.e in value.
to
E. NA TC LIB ULL thought the plan proposed open
serious objections. There was another clause in the Bill
relating
to hops, to which he had, as well as to this, a some-
;hiat similar objection to that expressed by the Hon. Member.
the Hun. Baronet moved an amendment, to the effect that
e valuers in taking the seven years' average, shoed have re-
gard to the production, nature, and quality of the soil.
After a few words rom Mr. Biarnire, Mr. Plumptre, Sir
Wrotte3lev, Mr. Mills, and Mr. Leonard,
wiAlr. C. 1313LLER complained that the Hon. Gentlemen
° had spoke upon thequestion had not confined themselves
toh the matter before the Committee, but had wandered into
tl,ie general question of principle. For hi 3 part he was con-
Need that tithes could be commuted fairly on no
other prin-
ciple than that contained in the 33d clause, and only regretted
were
the 34th clause was so inconsistent with it. These clauses
'cre in fact incompatible. He should support the former, as
founded on a just principle of commutation, and decidedly op-
pose the latter, as based on a vicious principle, which would
destroy the effect of the other. He strongly censured the use
9f such ambiguous and incomprehensible language as appeared
in the construction of these clauses, where changes were made
On such phrases as " real productive value," " aggregate
value,” till a perfect confusion of ideas were created.
Ne believed that his Learned brethren were the only persons
'lke!), to profit by the perusal of these clauses, every word of
which would afford them opportunity of earning golden opi-
aloos on their probable import.—( Laughter. )

Mr. WARAURTON said Unit he did not understand the

the
of the objection of the Hon. Member for Liskeard to
4n5 34th clause, which went to appoint a Court of Appeal to
review the decision of the Commissioners in certain cases
Where excessive awards were made by the latter. The real
difficulty consisted in appropriating the a -gregate sum among
individuals.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the time for discussing the
14th clause had not arrived. The 33d was consistent through-
out, and the Hon. Member for Liskeard had admitted that the
Principle upon which the mode of estimating the value of land
contained therein was correct. There was no necessity, there-
fore, of embarrassing it by the verbal amendments proposed,
and which properly related to another clause, and which,
;then brought forward in their proper place, he would give his
Deg consideration to.
Mr. DENISON concurred in the observations of the Noble
Lord.

I, Mr. G OULBURN could not agree to the amendment of
"Ls Hon. Friend, on the conviction that the actual value
would be best obtained by taking the actual receipts for
tie basis.
Mr. G ROTE disagreed with the last Speaker, and declared
iS intention of supporting the amendment.
.„ Mr. DENISON conteudad that the proposition of the
2tight lion. Baronet was assentially unjust.
After a few words from Mr. EsTcovaT and Mr. BLAMIRE,
the House divided on the Amendment, and the numbers were,
Ayes
Noes

111
Majority

Oa our re-admission into the gallery,
%Mr. PARROTT proposed, as an amendment to the clause,
at, after the rent charge shall be permanently formed, a de.
netion of ten per cent shall be made from it in favour of the
lendlord.
Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the Amendment on the ground
that it was at variance with the principle of the Bill.
The Amendment was negatived without a division.
a.Alr. PARROTT said he would take another opportunity of
Ividing the Committee upon the question, and propose, as
i',F,gested by the Member for Middlesex, that the reduction be
°I. in place of 10/. per cent.
d
add r.
RICHARDS proposed that the following words be
e to clause 33 :

Provided always, and be it enacted, that in case any part
at the lands in the parish shall at any time be broken up, and
2e surface destroyed, and rendered unproductive, by the
Peratious of raising and getting coals, ironstone, and other
mines and minerals, or for the erection of any works for con-
v,erting the same, that the rent charge imposed as hereinbefore
rrovided, shall, on the breaking up or covering of the surface
e
such land as aforesaid, abate in the proportion of the extent
"` land so rendered unproductive, and that such rent charge
811311 accrue only on such land being again restored and
"'ought into cultivation."
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not aware that, with the
"eeption of Staffordshire, there was any part of the country
'Which would derive much benefit from the proposed amend-
blent. It was not of sufficient importance to induce the Com-
3aittee to infringe on the principle of the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Ilawkes, Mr. Warburton, and
°lle or two other Hon. Members, the Gallery was cleared for
a division, when there appeared—

54
171
..--117

Ayes . •• •
Noes.,
Majority
Clause 33 passed.
Clause 34 was put.
E. B ULLE R moved several verbal amendments, which
Me rise to some conversation, when
Mr. BROTHERTON rose, in accordance to his custom,
and,br amid general cheering, moved the adjournment of the
House.

The House resumed. Tile Chairman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday next.
11110 other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
use adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Mar 10.
the usual
LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
"le usual hour.
oThe LORD-LIEUTENANT of Ireland took his seat
-"tlY afterwards on the Ministerial benches, and was warmly
:111tratulated by several Noble Lords. His Excellency ap-
'teed in good health and spirits.
SALE OF BREAD.
eOlllO Duke of RICHMOND brought up the report of the
turaittee of this Bill.
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH.
001 TANKERVILLE presented a petition against the
dell etion of the punishment of death, except in cases of mur-
jp Also a petition from the owners and occupiers of land
the county of Norfolk, ou the subject of agricultural dis-
HANDLOOM WEAVERS.
iootarl ROSEBERY presented a petition from the Hand-
ti:,.weavers of Ayr, complainin of distress. Also a p
of alrum the corporation of merchants (Edinburgh) in favour
e Edinburgh Poor Bill.
SCOTCH ENTAIL BILL.
tli,Th,,eEarl of H ADDINGTON presented a petition against
L'oEtch Entail Bill.
A MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
ttl‘ Reputation of Members from the Commons appeared at
nal', and brought up several private Bills.
FACTORIES.
Iltic„?rd BURLINGTON presented a Petition from York,
tkinng that an alteration might be made in the Factory Bill,
pethat children under nine years of age should not be corn-
led to work more than six hours a day.
oft FREGISTRATION OF VOTERS BILL.
f Marquis of LANSDOWNE gave notice that he should
Vo,.v„;'day next move the second reading of the Registration of
rs

SCOTCH ENTAIL BILL.
teethe Earl of ROSEBERY, in moving the second
the ng •of the Scotch Entail Bill, in consequence of
cubject having been so recently before the House,
140 Mi not trouble the House bv entering at any length
bee the subject, the principal objects of the Bill having
TO stated when the measure was first introduced.
• Noble Earl then stated the substance of the different
'''ions of the Bill, which lie believed would be satisfactory
Sip public generally.—( Hear, hear, hear.) That the
he wregarding entails in existence could be done away with,
not prepared to say; but of this he was convinced,
144,:tne time would soon arrive when a much larger re•
fliCe."l,.°ll of the law of entail would take place than that
Re -4" wax proposed by the measure then before the House.
be their Lordships' consent to the Bill,. believing.
11,464 Measure that would be of great benefit to all indiv -
oet,',who were interested in entailed property, and of great
tta,rt to the public at large. The Noble Lord concluded by
cr7 the second reading of the Bill.
trfij"rl MANSFIELD did not object to the principle of the
tvhee-Parts of it were very important and extremely useful,
Neat ;there were other parts that very much required amend-
It too -4 Committee. If the Bill passed in its original shape
Thaiti destroy all entails.
IfOliehe buke of BUCCLEUG rl was not aware of any law
tja.l,-.‘‘Pruevented capitalists from expending capital in Scotland.
wattltt-V" not oppose the second reading, but he. hoped it
, A vile considered with close attention in Committee.
1,4 1371° ni.ll. LORD whose name we do not know, supported
tOt Which he 'thought would confer a great benefit upon
"1":8 ps and the public at large.
to the Earl of ABERDEEN said that he had no objection
kioa second reading of this Bill. A great difference of opi-
ko),:ertitinly
, prevailed with regard to the law of entail as it
lON•l4,ed in Scotland. He would not now enter into that
tot thian, but lie would say that those who were most attached
1,44.1aat la"' ought to give a favourable attention to the Bill,
rettaisptuwaato satisfied that it would, when i.nodified.,.do more to
the the law of entail in its essential provisions than if
s'e co, were now to resist a measure which the wants of
antr
imperiously demanded of their Lordships.
irti of ROSEBE
adRY replied.
`sta,,tii,*•)lll was then re a second time, and ordered to be
"ad on Monday, the 16th.
V' seoent IRISH CONSTABULARY BILL.
I
UNCANNON moved the third reading of this
to -LI-.ENBOROUGH said that he had an amend-
tiowsalitt,l),(lNPcso. He would suggest that the proviso, should
boon and the following oath taken instead:.-, Ido not
se Bribe g, and I 'will not while I hold the said office join,
ki tot s ?I' belong, teo any political society whatever, ot
4'ont ?ciatY whatever, unless it ►be the society of free.
`l, •
etc liok
4na, e of LEINSTER said that he had no objection
e ,„fl'lment,
ti After •"andrnerit was then aoreed to.
a.anda few verbal amendmerPts the Bill was read a third
Passed, ,