The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May:4.
The LORD CIIANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
Lord FEVERSTIAM presented several petitions
against a repeal of the navigation-taws.
Lord STANLEY presented several petitions with
a similar prayer.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented several pe•
titions with a similar prayer.
The Earl of TALBOT presented petitions from War-
wick and other places with a similar prayer.
The Earl of FALMOUTH presented a petition from
Tenzance with a similar prayer.
The Earl of DELAWARE, presented a petition
from Cambridge, praying for a restoration of protection.
The Duke of BEAUFORT presented several petitions
against a repeal of the navigation.laws.
SOUTEI DEVON RAILWAY.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Mr.
Charles Saunders, the secretary of the Great Western
Company, complaining that he had been represented
as secretary to the South Devon Railway Company,
He (Lord Brougham) had never stated that he was
secretary to the south Devon Company. The petition
also stated that the Great Western had no connexion
with the South Devon, except as the holders of a great
number of shares—that of course gave it great influence
over the South Devon. The Great Western paid up
their call.. Mr. Saunders did not pay up his calls.
He purchased preference shares when there
was a guarantee of six per cent. for ten years;
they ceased paying the 6 per cent. at the end of the
first year, and that he said he would not pay up his
calls, and then it wee suggested to him that the trans-
action was illegal. Such were the statements of the
petition, and he thought it better to detail them to the
House. He had understood from several Noble Lords
that Mr. Saunders was a most respectable person.
Lord LYNDHURST said that Mr. Saunders bad
nothing to do with the South Devon Railway, except
as a shareholder, who had paid his calls, had afterwards
taken preference shares, and had, on being informed that
those preference shares were invalid, refused to pay any
snore calls on them, until the point as to their validity
should be settled, and proceedings were now pending to
decide the point.
Lord BROUGHAM bad been requested by Mr. Hunt
to say that he was not the solicitor to whom he had al-
luded on the former occasion, and he certainly had not
alluded to Mr. Hunt.
After a few words from Lord Campbell, the Duke of
Cleveland, the Duke of Beaufort, and explanations from
Lords Brougham and Lyndhurst,
The Earl of GRANVILLE said that he could cor-
roborate the statement that the first time that it was
suggested to Mr. Saunders that these prefer-nee shares
were illegal, was during the course of a conversation
under the gallery of the House of Commons. He had
seen the gentleman who had first made that suggestion
to the House of Commons.
REPORTING THE DEBATES.

L'rd BEAUMONT gave notice that on Friday he
should move the consideration of the Standing Order
130. In consequence of the construction of the House,
and of the noise below the bar, it was impossible for
the reporters to hear accurately what passed in the
llouse, and he should, therefore, on Thursday move the
consideration of this standing order.
PETITIONS.

Earl GREY presented a petition from the merchants
of the city of Montreal, complaining of the loss of the
advantages they had derived from protection, and praying
for a repeal of tt.e navigation-laws.
The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from
Arbroath against the repeal of the navigation-laws.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from certain
perative silkweavers of London against the repeal of
the navigation-laws:
Lord MONTEAGLE presented several petitions from
certain guardians of the poor in Ireland in favour of
a property tax, rather than a rate in aid.
The Bishop of CASHEL presented several petitions
in favour of a grant for education to the Establsbed
Church in Ireland. He denied that the Established
Church in Ireland was rich; he knew no rich Protes-
tants of the Established Church in Ireland.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE explained.
CANADA. •

Lord STANLEY had underitood that it had been
stated, that no official corresponderce had taken
place with regard to the Bill for granting in-
demnity to those who had suffered during the late re-
bellion in Cane, la, but that correspondence had taken
place, and taken place privately, in order that they
might not be laid before Parliament. If such a system
of private correspondence were suffered to prevail
Ministerial responsibility was at an end, and the suc-
cessor of the Noble Earl would have no records before
him as to the opinions or information received by his pre-
decessors. He hoped to hear that the correspondence
would remain in the office, and might hereafter be pro-
duced. He would ask if any official communication had
taken place on the subject, and whether the responsi-
bility of assenting or dissenting from the measure was
to he cast upon the Earl of Elgin.
Earl GREY said no official correspondence on the sub-
ject had taken place, neither had the reports of the
proceedings of the Canadian Legislature been trans-
mitted to the Colonial-office. It W4B not the practice to

transmit them until the close of the session. He had or-

dered nil debates to bn forwarded up to the latest date.
He had had a correspondence with Lord Elgin, in
which he claimed the right of assenting or dissenting
from the Bill in the first place, and then to be sub-
mitted to the Government. The Governor had
stated that ho the,ught it inexpedient that he should
be called upon to state what course he intended to pur-
sue until he should be called upon to act. Teat
Rill had not been submitted to the Earl of
Elgin, nor were public Acts ordinarily submitted
t the Governor until the close of the session, and Lord

slain had stated that the time had not come for his
decision. lie (Earl Grey) had a lvisedly ab-
stained from giving Lord Elgin any advice directly or
indirectly as to how he should act, for he was convinced
that the best way of ruling the colonies was t give
their governors a larga discretion and a generous and
trusting support. Should he leave office next week, the
documents left would furnish his successor with
every information they could desire. He had, as all his
predecessors had done, written private letters to the
governors of colonies, but he should think he
was departing from his duty if the official correspond-
ence did not contain every information that could be
n'eful or necessary with regard to the government of
the ',Armies.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the o-iesion of bis Noble
Friend had, no doubt, originated in the monstrous doctrines
laid down in another place, that the government of a colony
could be carried on by private communications.

The subject dropped:
NAVIGATION-LAWS.

The Earl of lIIRROWBY presented a p3tition from
Liverpool against the repeal of the navigation laws.

IRISH POOR-LAW.

The Earl of ROSSE then moved for the production of
any correspondence that might have•talcen place between the
Poor-law Commissioners in Ireland and the boards of guar-
di ms, either with the view of inducing the guardians to give
or withhold out-door relief. He was particularly anxious
fir the correspondence which had recently taken place with
the unions of 11.11inasloe and Dungarvon, in reference to out-

door relief. The general opinion was, that where no ow
door relief was given, the poor•lzw had been well adm

nistered, but where out-door relief had been given, that
the law had been badly administered; and the peasantry
had romained in a state of destitution. ILI the union with
which he was connected—that of l'arsonstown—there was
no out door relief, and the poor-rate last year was 3s. 9d.
in the pound; while in the union of Tullamore, in the pro-
rince of Leinster, adjoining the union of Parsonstown, and
where there was out-door relief given, the poor-rate was so
high as 12s. t3cl. in the pound for the last ten months. It
was therefore of great importance that they should have some
information on the subjeet; as also as to the expense of ail-

ditional workhouse accommodation in Ireland. Should

require any length of time to make awl produce all the cor-
respondence, be had no objection to limit his motion to the cor-
respondenee which had taken place within the last six months.
The Marquis cf C LANRICARDE bad no objection to the
production of the return under the modification stated by the
Noble Earl. At the same time, he thought the system of
out-door relief not a bad one, as the ratepayers said, why not
give out-door relief to the poor, as while it only coat them
in the pound to relieve the poor out of doors, it cost them 6s.
in the worklionse.

Lord MONTEAGLE condemned the system of out-door
relief, as it was the means of opening the door to fraud.

The return, as modified, was then agreed to.
The Earl of CARLISLE introduced the Freemen's Lands
Bill, to enable the corporations of municipal towns to take
]eases, withow applying for a special Act of Parliament.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
The Lords' amendments to the Epsom Rates and Not•
tinghani GAS Bills were considered and agreed to:—
. ABDY'S ESTATE BILL.

This Bill w•as rend a second time, and ordered to be
committed.

THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third time and passed:
Chester and Elolyhead Railway (Increase of Capital,
wish Powers to the Loadon and North-Western Railway
Company to subscribe thereto).

Kirkcaldy Harbour, Docks. Ferry, and Petty Customs.
Sunderland Deck Act and River Wear Commissioners'
Act (Amendment, &c.)
Whittlesey St. Mary and Whittlesey St. Andrew
Union of Parishes, and for improving the Town of
Whittlesey.

PETITIONS.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE presented petitions against
the Registration and Marriages Bilk
Mr. J. WILLIAMS presented a petition from St.
Asaph, numerously signed, praying that no bishops or
--lergymen might he appointed for Wales unless they
were conversant with the Welsh language, and attribu-
Sing the spread of dissent to the non-observance of this
rule.

Colonel REID presented a petition from the Dissen-
ters at Windsor, against the proposed alteration of the
m arrive lawn.

Colonel SIIITHORp presented a petitioa to the same
cif et.

An HON. lifEmnEa presented a petition in favour of
rcedickl reform.

An HON. AfEmnErt p., sowed a petition in favour of
the Clergy Relief Bill.
Mr. COWPER presented a petition praying that the
owners instead of oecup.(rs might be rated for small

tenements.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the
archdeacons and clergy of the Archdraconry of Oxford
against the New Marriage Bill. The Right Ilon.
Baronet presented a similar petition from Manchester.
Lord G. MANNERS presented a petition in favour of
protection, and a na tonal rate.
A;r. MOFFATT presented a petition against the new
Drainage Bill.

Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from rrelical
tnen_ja Dusettiiire against intormur§l interments.

Mr. COBDEN presented petitions from York and
other places in favour of the Clergy Relict Bill.)
Mr. COWAN presented Petitions from Edinburgh
against the Marriage and Registration Bills (Scotland).
Sir E. BUXTON presented :a petition from Birming-
ham praying that the produce of slave countries might
not be admitted iuto this country until they abolished
the slave trade.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE presented petitions from
Peeblesshire against the Registration and Lunatic
Asylum Bills (Scotland).
Mr. MILES presented petitions from Somersetshi.re
complaining of the amount of the recent grants to
Ireland.
Major BERESFORI) presented a petition from Saf-
fron Waldon, praying that some control might be exer-
cised over the county rates.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR gave notice that, on this day
fortnight, he should call attention to the transaction of
railway companies throughout the United Kingdom.
Mr. THORNELY begged to ask the Lord Advocate
when it is likely that any Bill for medical registration
would be introduced ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said that in eight or ten
days he should be enabled to place a measure on the
table of the House.
In answer to a question from Mr. CARDWELL,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he had not received
any communication from Captain Denholme with respect
to the excessive loading of steamers. When that was
received, it would be placed on the table of the House.
Lord DUDLEY STUART asked whether there was
a measure in contemplation for amending the Metropo•
'item Buildinz Act?
Sir GEORGE GREY said no notice had been given
of the question.
Lord DUDLEY STUART said, notice had been
given of a question with respect to intramural burials. He
wished to know when a measure on this subject would
be introduced?
Sir G. GREY said that a Bill had been prepared un-
der the auspices of his Noble Friend at the head of the
Woods and Forests; but as it required reconsideration,
it was determined to bring it on at a later period of the
session.
se ss
Lion? ord DUDLEY STUART—We may hope fur it this
Sir G. GREY—I hope so.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House at its rising
do adjourn till Monday neat.
BURIALS IN TOWNS.
Mr. WYLD presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Westminster against interment in towns.
THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.

In answer to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, so far as he was con-
cerned, there was no foundation for a statement said
to have been made by Mr. G. F. Young respecting a
conversation represented to have taken place between
him (Mr Lebouchere) and Mr. Hume, in reference to
the repeal of the navigation-la vs. He had received a
letter from Mr. Hume, who was.too ill to be seen,
intimating that the statement made by Mr. Young
at the meeting in the City, to the effect that it
Mr. Hume would assent to the third reading of the Na-
vigation Bill he (Mr. Labouchere) would next session
bring in a Bill to repeal all the clauses in the Bill to
which Mr. Hume was said to have objected was en-
tirely without foundation.
LAND IMPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE-
LAND) (ADVANCES) BILL.
On the House going into Committee on this Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
wished to say a few words on the present state
of Ireland. He entirely differed from those Honour-
able Gentlemen who seemed to conceive that all
at once, by some legislative measure, the whole
state of Ireland could be ameliorated. The change
which was required in that country was a total change
in the social system of the west of Ireland. They must
now look to an entire change in the social system in that
part of the country. Nobody could be more mistaken
in 1-ia opinion than those who th-ought there could
be no improvement in the present state of the west of
Ireland. He agreed rather with those who felt that
there were better prospects in store for the coun-
try. No doubt great evils existed in that
part of the country to which he had referred, owing to
the large number of small tenants who held no ler
middlemen, and without the means of eviction, which
had been resorted to during the last six
months, he was quite sure that no improve
went whatever could have been effected. Under
the recent system the landlord depended upon the mid-
dleman, the middleman upon the small tenant, and the
small tenant upon the potato. When, therefore, the po-
tato was stricken with the blight all these elas.es
and the result had since been that the land now remained
uncultivated, because it had been impoverished by the
previous mode of culture. The letter of Captain Ken-
nedy to the Poor-law Commissioners gave a correct pic-
ture of the evil—one, too, that proved, b:yond all ques-
tion, that the case was one which no
possible legislation could meet. What was really
wanted to effect a remedy was the application of capital
to the land by those who were ready and willing to invest
it. If there were any such, as he wr.s assured there were,
Government was ready to assist them; but, besides that.
all that Government could do was to relieve those
whose estates were too much incumbered to admit of
their being disposed of in the market. To show what
improvement had been effected by a new system of farm-
ing introduced into Ireland, he need only mention
the case eit:el the other night by the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth
adding, at the same time, that even in the dreadrully
distressed union of Bellina, which not It n; ago was
thought to be in a hopeless condition, some capitalists
connected with the Society of Friends in Yorkshire had
done an immense amount of good by taking farms
in the union, and adopting the English mode of farming.
fie bad receive-el a letter yesterday which he cotedel, red
the House would think with him was of a very satisfac-
tory nature. It was from Mr. Burke, the inspector of
the Balling Union, in the county of Mayo. It
stated that the pursuance of the acts of indus-
try have increased, and that a general opinion
prevailed amongst those with whom he had conversed
that the people desired to draw out the resources of the
soil, an evidence of which was to be found in the fact
that the cultivation of waste lands had been set about.
Coming from one of the most poverty•stricken
districts of Ireland, such a communication could not be
regarded otherwise than most cheering and satisfactory.
He could read a number of other communications, all
tending to show that better days wore dawning upon
Ireland, but he did not wish to fatigue the
House.—(flear.) He believed he should be enabled
to satisfy the House that the grants heretofore made had
led to the profitable employment of large masses of the
people. He might observe that the Government pos-
sessed 43 inspectors, without whose sanction no mine)
was expended, and who exercised a cireful supervision
over the expenditure of the money which had been ad-
vanced. They were the best guardians that could- be
appointed, and they prevented the useless expenditure of
the public money. Without referring to any other mea-
sures that might be necessary for the welfare of Ire-
land, he thought that that which was really wanted
was employment for the people.—(Hear, hear.)
lie believed and looked forward confidently
to the time when the desire for employ-
ment would not exceed the demand. The.
first power which ho intended to seek from
the House was that the money to be adven:!ed might be
made in accordance with the Lands Improvement
Act; that Act providing, according to his idea,
the best mode of applying the money to
proper and wholesome purposes—since, under it, the
relations between landlord and tenant were pre-
serve f, and the influence exercised by the Government
only extended to ordering that the money was properly
expended, and the improvements of the land property
made. Out of the grants previously made 3,074,000/
had been applied for, and the advance of 1,500,000/ or
one-half, sanctioned by the Government. The appeal for
grants made to the Government amounted to 1,514,000/.,
given up 112,000/.—resanctioned, 59,000/ ; so that there
was now lent (as we understood, for the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman articulated his figures indistinctly) 1,491,000/.,
leaving a reserve of about 9,000 L 948,000/. had been
issued, leaving for the employment of labour 952,0001
By the application of skill and industry, under the Land
Improvement Act, land in some parts of Ireland which,
two years ago, was not worth half-a-crown an acre, was
now worth 10s. an acre. Indeed, from the im-
proved system of drainage, the land, upon an average,
was improved in value 80 percent. He knew an instance
where 175 acres of arable land occupied by tenants,
some of whom were ejected and others of whom had
emigrated, had been turned to grazing puts
poses, and within less than two years it yielded a
return of 10 per cent. On an average the whole
of the arable land laid down to pasture had given a
return of Si. per cent. With respect to arterial
drainage there was some considerable misapprehension
on this subject, as to what was the state of
the law, and great disappointment had been felt in Ire-
land that an unlimited supply of money was not always
forthcoming. The intention of the Act was
that all funds for that purpose were to be raised
' by the issue of debentures. He heard very great fault
had been found with the Board of Works, because they
bad not undertaken works when, as it was alleged, they
had funds to carry them en. It was only
fair before such complaints were made that the parties
making them should have taken the trouble to inquire
whether the Beard of Works really had funds to
carry on such improvements. Honourable Gentle-
men must remember that in 1847 those works in
many parts of Ireland were undertaken with the
view of affording out-relief; and works which
would not have been undertaken were under-
taken at that time with the view of affording
employment to the poor in distressed districts.
At University Hall in Galway, land which formerly
only produced 301. per annum bad been effectually
drained, and now yielded the landlord 1301.—(Hear,
hear.) At Borrisokeine, land which previous to
the drainage was complete ly covered with flood, vests
now in a- state of profitable cultivation. Formerly it
was valued at 2s. an acre, now it paid no less than
13s. per acre, and the whole expense of working
this beneficial change would be about 9s. par acre
for twenty years. Notwithstanding, then, Is hat
had been said against the Board of Workr,
he thought the works completed under their
direction had been most successful, and he should pro-
pose, therefcre, to the House to advance a further sum
for carrying out arterial drainage.—(Hear.) He nro
posed to advance this year a sum which, to the extent of the
reports, might be expended on works already commenced in
the distressed counties, and also upon works the preliminary
proceedings connected with which had been completed. The
counties which were most distressed were Mayo, Galway,
Clare, Roscommon, Leitrim, Cork, Sligo, Limerick, and
Tipperary-, and the money which had been expended in those
counties amounted to 270,000/. The repayment of money
which bad been made amounted to 300,00,.•1., of that stun
,l,"°0001- was re-issuable under the Act of last session.
Mating made those statements to the House, the Right
Hon. cientlenua concluded by asking tuat a gout of 300,000/.

be advanced for the purpose of carrying out the objects of
the Land Improvement Act, and 200,000/. for river drainage,
the amount to be advanced out of the Consolidated Fund of
England and Ireland.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE said, the Right lion. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken great credit for
arterial drainage in Ireland; but lie (Mr. Ormsby Gdre)Was
in possession of returns from more than one county,
which showed that the experiment was to the landed pro-
prietors of the country a most expensive one. He had beer.
charged for these operations by the Government 200/. fur
the drainage of six acres 20 perches. The drains were 2ft.
bin. deep, 1 ft. 2in. over, which was at the rate of 321. 13s.
per acre.
Mr. F. FRENCH said the expense was so great in these
cases that parties, on viewing the estimates presented for
their execution, would not proceed with their improvements.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was hope for
the future; but he could assure him that the only hope was
upon the broad cast of potatoes set this year, upon which
they relied, but if that crop failed, the famine of 1850 would
be much more severe than that of 1846 and 1547. The Hon
Gentleman then gave a description of the state of Mayo,
which he said was in the greatest distress. If something was
not done to improve the country, and to develope its re•
sources, it would be as a millstone round the neck of Eng-
land, and would finally be its ruin. He hoped they would
have a Committee of Inquiry appointed, and then they
should know how far Ireland was fairly taxed.
Mr. VERNON SMITH was not going to express any
opinion cri the mra ore before the House, until he ascer-
teined what were the feelings of Hon. Members for Ireland.
lie votel on a former occasion against the grant of 50,000/.,
not from any feeling of indifference to the sufferings of the
Irish people, but from a wish that the money might be ap-
plied in a better manner. Ho wished to know from his
Right lion. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what
advances were given under the Land Improvement (Ireland)
Bill ; and whether the interest upon the sum advanced,
which was to be secured as a rent-charge en Irish prof erty,
was regularly and punctually paid ? lie understood his
Right Hon. Friend now to be for giving 300,000/. for one
purpose,and 200,003/. for another; the money vote for the
Land Inprovement Act, having, he supposed, been already
exhausted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
state that the funds advanced under the Land Improve-
ment Act were now exhausted. He stated that 9)0,000/.
remained of the 1,500.0001. granted ; that the
amount of the sums issued was 548,000/., and that the
900,00:71. was available under the Act for the next three or
four years. It was obvious that that money having been
located in another way, it could not now be given for the
increase of employment, except under the provisions of the
Land Improvement Act. The amount of application for ad-
vances under that Act was 3,074,000/. ; of which 1,544,000/.
was sanctioned by the proper authorities. Of that latter
sum 112,000/. had been given up, and 60,010/. of it again re-
appropriated ; so that all which remained in hand now was
900,00/. Now, as to the interest in the shape of a rent-
charge, of which his Right lion. Friend asked him a ques-
tion, he could state that all Tent charges due on the sth of
October last were 4,9891, of which 4,9351. were paid, leaving
a balance of Su-. 531. due.—( Hear, hes r.) Of the sum payable
on the sth of April, 2,000/. were already paid, and more could
not he expected. With regard to measures for compelling
partiee who had borrowed to pay, he certainly would advise
the most stringent measures to be taken if it should be found
necessary.
Mr. HERBERT believed the present measure would be-
nefit the country, in forwarding arterial drainage; but he
could not say it would afford that employment to the people
which was expected. lie complained of the present area of
taxation, as promoting the greatest of evils. Much of the
misery in Ireland was attributable to the failure of the poor-
law, in consequence of a want of equalisation of the elec-
toral divisions. Grants of money like the present were, in
consequence, thrown away, while this evil existed. There
were English Members in that House to whom he would
appeal under such circumstances, and say, give them a
poor-law in I-eland, similar to that now existing in Eng-
land, and they were prepared to submit to all their respon-
sibilities.
Mr. AGLIONBY should be glad to know from the Irish
Members whether there was a chance of ag-eeing on any
subject connected, with Ireland, during the present ses-
sion ?—(A laugh.)
Sir 11. BARRON—And gn gl is h Members differ too.
Mr. ACILIONnY—No doubt, but not on important points.
Indeed he thought the Irish Members would agree on a ques-
tion of money, and he dared to say they would yet do so,
although some of them, like the Hon. Member for Roscom-
mon, now found fault with it. He objected, however, to one
thing—in which he not only expected opposition from the
Government, but the Irish Members. He was averse then,
to the management of the works bring given to the Board
of Works, because that board was the most expensive ma-
chinery that could be got. In some cases, as had been stated
by the Hon. Member for Shropshire, they charged 32/. for
draining where it could be done for 51.; and he therefore
thought that in justice to the Irish landlords, it ought to be
taken out of their hands.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to
correct an error into which his Hon. Friend had fallen.
The money so appropriated was not expended by the Board
of Works, but by the landlords of Ireland, wider the Lend
Improvement Act, inspected by an officer from the Board.
The money expended under the River Drainage Act—was
certainly by them —but it was so expended because it was
found impossible for the landlords to do so. The Government
had been forced to undertake works which they had no wish
to do, but that arose in consequence of the works going
through the properties of a number of landlorde. The fact
was, the sum of 32/. alluded to by the Hon. Member, and
on a former occasion by the Hon. Member for Shropshire,
was under the Relief Act, and not under the Land Improve-
ment Act or the River Drainage Act at all.
Mr. AGLIONBY regretted he had taken up the time of
the House in mis-stating anything; but he would not give
the Board of Works a single farthing to expend as public
money in Ireland. In the case of Lough Corrib, evidence was
offered to be given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
their misconduct, and ho declined. An investigation, he con-
tended, was necessary.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL—Question, question.
Mr. AGLIONBY said it was the question. The question
before the House was the proper management of money in
Ireland.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that the drainage of Lough
Corrib was brought under the notice of the House as a pri-
vate Bill, ;yid had nothing to do with the present question.
Mr. AGLIONBY contended that it had. Here was a com-
pany who hail expended 15,000/. in wages alone, in the
drainage of Lough Corrib, until they were stopped by the
Board of Works, and when a deputation waited on the
Right Hon Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
to dive him ieformatfon on the subject, he declined seeing
them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied that
he refused to receive inferma:ion on this subject from any
person. An application was made to him certainly, but he
said it would be useless to wait on him, inasmuch as the
question in dispute was before a court of law, and until that
was settled nothing could be done.
Mr. AGLIONBY explained.
Viscount BERNARD supported the measure, and entered
into some details relative to the distress which existed in
certain districts in Ireland. He thanked the Noble Lord
opposirit
tei.
n flourr
whether
co-operation
ht
nehcivehoeo,mryl
cdaeossoaus, uhdleree
be
greatee suggest
seemi
etttihleloodrr whicheaecatdsohni.iutine,
ell
tadrhTacßeetin:
el:gmhti
employmentine.
Right
ai
cp,Hrhb devisedhotwepntroe,
ae,B
rus rdpna lubosbtosliy. o‘e.tf.
iwa
lbmeetGentlemanioeuh
d
be seine active means taken at the present time to assist the
going transition
o n i statell
Ireland. f from one
If system
Ireland
tion than she was now, the revenues of the country would be
greatly increased. The expenditure of money on Ireland
now would eventually increase the prosperity of the empire.
Mr. GROGAN said he gave her Majesty's Government
credit for leaving :at length taken the state of Ireland into
their serious consideration. Before they could carry- their
measure into effect for the improvement of estates, they must
find purchaeere for them. Ile feared that there was but little
prospect of finding purchasers for the immense quantity of
land that their measures would throw into the market. The
poor. Taw would be another obstacle to the improvements an-
ticipated. The difficulty of ob:aining co-operation in Ire-
land would certainly be met in some degree by the Arterial
Drainage Act, but some alteration was necessary.
Mr. TRELAWNEY rose to oppose the granting of any
money from the English Exchequer for Irish purposes. Since
he hail been a Member of that House, lie believed so much
as ten millions had been voted for Ireland. Now, tinder
these circumstancos, one of two things, it was clear, must
happen—either that the soil of Ireland must be brought up
to a point to enable it to support the population, or the popu-
lation must be lessened, so as to proportion it to the means of
the productive power of the soil. If he had any hop i that
this was the last grant, it would be different; but he found,
according to the accounts in the newspapers of the continued
distress, notwithstanding he had heard of the recovery of the
potato, that- there was no such prospect. The drain upon
this country for the relief of Ireland had had the effect of
creatn; dissatisfaction with the measures of free trade, be-
cause free trade was blamed for producing that distress which
was caused by the advances for Ireland. However unplea-
sant it might be for him to do so, he really must oppose the
proposed grant.
STAFFORD Dtosatiidie the Iron.
tlla granting3fem ber
t trade, because people,
he said, attributed the
agains free
money to Ireland bad been the cause of
.raising.an outcry
distress to
halCilmr.aintli;GliUntSitTedijShiSs
free-trade measures, when in reality the Honour-
Member affirmed that the distress was caused by the
of the recovery of the potato, as he
called it, he (Mr. A. Stafford)
received his information
was at a loss to understand.—
aadhlreances made to Ireland. Where the Hon. Member had
(Hear, hear.) . Ole thing he thought obvious was this, that
there was some danger in makin.. Ireland so largely a debtor.
The amount which
e when this proposed grant was passed, and
Ireland already owed, and which she
would further w
when the contemplated advances ere made to Irish rail-
ways, would soon make it become
av question, how far they
bad acted wisely in making one
portion of the empire so
o
large a debtor to the other p
that until the area
It had been stated, upon good authority,that
country
portion.—(Hear, hear.)
observe, that when the
could be known. He would also
Chancellor f the Exchequer
Right Hon. Gentleman the
used by Irish Members
of taxation was narrowed, no man's liability.
complained of the long debates caused
relief,
he (Mr.
preventing the passing of measures
Staf-
ford) would remind the
s that Government was com
only by these protracted debate
with beneficial measures.
pelled at length to come forward
Sir H. W. BARRON begged leave to remark, that when
Right Hon. Gentleman, that it was
gentlemen who had
stion, seven of them
addressed the House on the preseriioque
Members talked so
observations were made about the speeches of Irish Members,
he would just remark, that of the ten
' were English Members.
hat ad recently been ad-
vanced-
for improvements in England. It appeared, according
largely as they did about theW haednvances made for Irish relief,
}ad
wool 1 call their attention to w
ing to a return which had been
made only ten days ago, that
(Hear.) When Hon.
Gentlemen, therefore, thought proper to express themselves
to
there had been a sum granted by that
_Ho use, amounting to
eight millions, for English purposes.
to be so forgetful of
would request of them not ult-
the eight
millions which had been advanced to England.—(Hear.)
as they did about their miserable lreland, he
advance_ _
When people talked about the potato famine being over, he
would simply
ask them before they ventured to make such
statements, to make themselves a little acquainted with
who was well
Villiers Stuart, a gentlemen
Houle, and who was chairman of a
Members of that
stated that such was the
facts.—( hear, hear.) He had received a letter from Mr.
union in Carrick- on-Suit, who
199
people
workhouse in one day.—
had been admitted into the
that in a
also enabled to state
r.
day.—
( Hear, hear.) Ile was -
not fewer than oi 9 able-
bodiedextent of the distress, that so many as
union in Tipperary there were
lie con-
of ,rant which had
tended. therefore, that this was a kind
before on precisely
been extended to England and Scotland
labourers at present in the workhouse.
similar grounds; and he would suggestshould not make a
the Exchequer that the Board of Works
person. Another
greater advance than 1,0001 to any one
Peconsidering 1,
suggestion which lie would also offer was, that,
to the Chancellor of
that could be found
workhouses, and the little employment •
're
the great number of able-bodied paupers at present in the i
for them, it would be desirable to bind the parties borrowing
the money to spend it within twelve months;
money were to be retained wholly or in pert, for one, two, or
three years,itK) aus er the purpose they content-
because, if the

plated. He thought this: was a step in the right direc-
tion, and was most willing- to acknowledge it as such in
the most ample terms.—(llear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that giving full credit to the
Government fur good intentions in bringing forward this
measure, there were one or two poiLts to which he must
be permitted to allude. The first was, that it was very
necessary to stop the great waste of human life in the west
of Ireland ; and if it were necessary to grant additional aid
in order to raise the scale of dietary, ho thought the Go •
vernment should take it upon their responsibility to do it,
although in so doing they might attract much popular dis-
satisfaction. Another point was, the necessity at all times
great, but now most stringent, ofgiving security to the tenants
in their holdings, so as to ensure to them the enjoyment of
the fruits of their labour, food fur the present and security
for the future; but at any rate, food fur the present, under
measures which he felt confident ought not to be lost sight of,
and he hoped the Government saw the necessity of provid-
ing immediately for both.
Mr. REYNOLDS said, that thongh many Hon. Members
wished the grant had been greater, still he believed all were
glad to know that the Consolidated Fund was not to be for
ever hermetically sealed against the people of Ireland. He
had that day been sitting in the Irish Poor-law Committee,
and haul there heard evidence which would harrow up the
heart of any humane person ; and h ewas even satisfied that
had the Han. Member for Tavistock, who spoke so s'rongly
against the measure, heard it, his views on the question
would at least have been much modified. He hailed this
measure as one of material advantage to Ireland, and he
could assure the Government that hey would receive the
thanks and gratitude of the people of that country for it. For
his own part he begge t to thank the Government most cor-
dially, as an Irish Member, fur the useful measure they had
brought forward.
The resolution was agreed to without a division.
The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported the
resolution to the House.
THE MARRIAGES BILL.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said he wished to explain to the
House that he had yesterday told many of his Hon. Friends
that if this Bill could not be re died that night before nine
o'clock, he should not propoae to go on with it. If that were
a general Understanding. it would be exceedingly wrong to
press it; but he believed that that was not the case. At
nine o'clock they were hovering on the verge of a division.
It was then little more than twenty minutes past nine, and
as it seemed to be•the general feeling of the House that the
Bill should be proceeded with that night, he should propose
to proceed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had consented to postpone
the other orders, in order to afford an opportunity for conti-
nuing the discussion of th's question, and as on that account
many Hon. Members might have gone away in the belief
that those orders would not be taken, the night would per-
haps be wasted unless the debate proceeded.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said he hoped the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would not press on his matioaaliat night, after the un-
derstanding that was come to yeaterdey, especially because
it could nor. be concluded that night.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he thonght there would
be no danger of occupying the attention of the House too
long, Ulm yielded to the general feeling,„and proposed to
proceed with the debate. - • •
Mern.tioGg,hOtthU,
atLthßothsUeeßl‘.Nil
said
eruetphoaannt
xtaihsoiusa
snfior nr Billdi rvhsoatuadlndnd
oinn(dg,
to hub abedt t
gabeen
debateow
t
in the belief that it would not be moved.
ctahowlaAnatfyter a few words to the same affect from Mr. HENLEY,
who also expressed his opinion that the debate on the Mar-
riages Bill would not close that night, if commenced, the
other orders were postponed,.and at length the adjourned de-
bate was moved.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS then said, that as the other orders were
deemed of so little importance that they might be postponed
until next week, and as be was sure that the Marriages Bill
could not be debated to any useful purpose, he should move
the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. HENLEY-eeconded.the motion.
The House-then divided, and the numbers were--
For the motion 25
Against it

_ Majority against ..... 91
The House then resumed the adjourned debate.
Mr. BUNBURY was somewhat struck on the previous
evening with the remarks of the Honourable Member fur
Plymouth (Mr. Roundel! .Palmer) in reference to the law
on which this question rested. It was not for him (Mr.
Bunbury) and those with whom he acted, to show
that the question was not supported by the
Divine law; it was rather for these who held op-
posite opinions to show that it was; and if the law of God
was express upon the subject, then they should adhere to
that law. A great deal had been said and written on the
subject, on the one side and the other, and if they looked to
the evidence contained in the Blue Book—evidence which he
believed to be strictly impartial—they would find that a ma-
j eity of the clergy of the Church of'England had expressed
themselves in favour of a change in the law. It appeared to
him that their present laws acted upon the people just as
their " game laws" acted upon poachers, both tending to de-
moralise. He would, in conclusion, sum up his remarks in an
expression of opinion that they should not, on this subject,
maintain any prohibition not strictly based upon, and main-
tainable by Divine law, and on those grounds he should give
his assent to the Bill of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. HOPE quite agreed with his Hon. Friend who had
just addressed the House, if they could not show that this
law was maintainable upon the authority of the law of God,
that they should, or, that ground, and on the ground of social
expediency, make an al:eration in it. His Hon. Friend had
said theta majority of the clergy who were examined on the
subject were in favour of a change in the law; but what
was the fact ? Why, that there were but ten of the clergy
altogether examined on the question, and that fire were in
favour of, and five against a change in the law. In a social
point of view his Hon. Friend thought it was desirable that a
man should be permitted to marry his brother's widow, as he
would naturally be the best protector of herself and children,
and this was put forward as the poor man's argument.—
(Hear, hear.) There c mid not at all events be
any distinction between the p:rmission of marrying a
brother's widow and a wile's sister. He contended that the
statistics with regard to the number of these could not be
relied upon, as, in fact, the greater part of those persons in
humble life who were supposed to be married within tins-
prohibited degrees, were really cohabiting together, and had
never been married. He then adduced two instances of
parties, the one of lifty.nine, and the other sixty-eight, ap-
plying for permission to marry in order to preys nt the
scandal, as they alleged, of living together as brother and
sister. He would ask, was it to give relief in such cases as
that, that they would relax a law which had the sanction
of the Christian Church for fifteen hundred years. A large
portion of the Kirk of Scotland were against the chan[,e, a
majority of the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland mid of
England were opposed to it.
Sir G. GREY said he would briefly state the reasons which
induced him to vote in favour of the second reading of the
Bill. It was not necessary that ho should enter into the
subject, as it had been already exhausted by the speeches
delivered on the debate. Neither would he enter into the
theological argument upon the question. He did not think
a marriage between a man and his deceased wife's sister
could not be easily settled by reference to scripture. Every
man should settle that point in his own mind. If there was
any Member of that House who thought that such a mar-
riage was prohibited by Divine law, he could not, of
course, vote in favour of the Bill upon the ground of
its social necessity; but if he did not entertain an opinion
that it was contrary to the Divine law, or that
scripture was doubtful on the subject, then he might formhishadONbveneonfopinion
(i
forming
upon the tnohipei
opinion
o,enetshtfe speeches iroonm the information which
s p delivered on the. They had every oppor-
tunitysubject, and by reference to the various pamphlets which
had been recently written on the subject. For hie own part
he did not think there was any scriptural prohibition against
such marriages, and he therefore was free to vote in favour
of the Bill, on the grounds of social convenience, and the
general interests of mankind. References had been made to
Ow authority of the Church. If by that was meant the au-
thority of the early fathers or general councils previous to
the Reformation, he could not attach much authority to
them, as in that case he would be carried much farther than
this prohibition, and would be involved in many other pro-
hibitions which were repugnant to common sense—such as
the prohibition of marriage between sponsors and guardians
and wards, and other cases where no consanguinity existed,
prohibitions which were repugnant to the judgment and feel-
ings of men. • if the authorities of the Church meant the
opinions of the early reformers and of the Church, as esta-
blished by law in this country, he did not think the pro-
hibition could be sustained upon such authority. Thie
Bill did not make such marriages obligatory, if it did it
would be highly objectionable. but it left every one free to
act as they thought proper, who were not members of the
Church of England. Looking at the question as it referred
to considerations of social policy, he thought that all the
argument and the reason was in that point of view in favour
of a relaxation of the law. The law of 1835 was only in
tended to remove the doubts which at that time existed with
regard to this description of marriages, and it was the
framers of that BiSI to set those doubts at
object of the
passage through the House of Lords that
was introduced. Previous to the Act
of 18 35 these marriages were not void, but voidable, and
the consequence was that the uncertain sta'e of the law, in
the prohibitory lt
wa sin
ciltasuse
this respect, gave rise to great anxiety, the parties never
knowing when steps might be taken to render them void,
it being merely accidental whether or not they were dis-
solved. To remedy this was the object of the Bill. The
effect of the Act of 1835 had not been to prevent marriages
of the kind; it was introduced to prohibit it taking place,
and the consequence was, that no change had been produced
by it, and marriages of the kind prohibited were being cele-
brated the seine as heretofore. That was amply proved by
the evidence taken before the Commissioners —that evidence
further showed that-those marriages were not only entered
into by parties moving in the higher spheres of life, but that
they were so by those moving in less exalted stations; and
what appeared to him to:be- the strongest point of the case
was, that while the evidence upon which the measure was
founded was gathered from the opinions, and feelings, and
wishes of the common people on the subject, the arguments of
those who opposed it were founded on the various shades of ec-
clesiastiealdoctrine andchurch practice ' • and that therefore, to
his mind, the former sort of evidence had a much stronger
effect than the latter. Those who knew best the habits and
feelings of the people, gave their evidence in favour of a mea-
sure such as the present, and therefore attaching more im-
portance to the evidence of those who ougbt, he conceived, to
know best the habits and feelings of the people on the sub-
ject; he would support a measure founded on such evidence,
rather than reject it on no other evidence than the opinions
of those who had no such knowledge of the subject; all that
could be said against the measure was,- that it might cause
some difficulty in respect to marriages, among the higher
classes of society, but as they had it in evidence that it
would confer great benefits on those of a lower grade, he con-
fessed that he for one would not hesitate to give the
measure his support. There were now evasions of the law
in respect of marriage; and a great deal of perjury practised,
often in order to get the ceremony carried out,
and he conceived that the present measure would be the
means of, in a considerable degree, doing away with that.
These considerations ought not to be overlooked. Besides,
they bad the experience of other countries to guide them.
The fact was, that such marriages as that contemplated by
the measure were allowed throughout the Continent, and in
the United States of America, and he had not as yet heard
that in any of those places any inconvenience had resulted
to the community in consequence of such a law being in
force. They had also the great body of the Protestant Dis-
senters in this country in favour of the measure, with a
large number of the Roman Catholics, as well as a large
body of the members and clergy of the Church of England
a'king for the change, and, with these facts before them,
he saw no ream why the measure should not be entertained.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS admitted, that while it might not
be desirable to enter into a dissertation on time sacred Scrip-
tures in that House, yet it was true that there were cases in
which they were bound to do so. The present he considered
one of those cases. With a view to their coming to a deci-
sion in this case, they must seek the guidance of the word of
God, and unless they took the Old and the New Testament
together, they could not come to a decision on the point.
Let them take the 18 chapters of Leviticus, and interpret it
in connexion with the New Testament, they would find
that it fully bore upon the present case. The general prin-
ciple laid down in that chapter was, that a man should not
marry those of near kin to lihn, and unless they coild say,
because the marriage of a man with his daughter wits Dot I

expressly prohibited by the word of God, while it was said
that he should not marry his granddaughter, then he said
that they had as good a right to say that a man could net
menry his wife's sister, such not being directly prohibited i❑
Scripture. Ile could have wished that the system adopted
seven years ago, when they were not even allowed to discuss
the question. should have been followed on the present occa-
sion. But then it was sid in the interim a royal commis-
sion had been issued, and a mass of evidence collected on the
subject. Into that evidence he did not require to go, as his
Right Honourable Friend the Member for Cambridge had
ably discussed that part of the question. For himself, be
bed never risen in that H mse with greater personal pain than
on the present. and he said again, that he wished the dis-
cussion had not been raised. He believed that there never
had been laid on the table of the House a document so in-
formal and so irregular, as was the report of these royal
commissions. The Commissioners had not. recorded their
attendance on any one occasion. But so far from this
Bill being the result of the researches of the commissioners
these Commissioners in the end of the report stated that they
had come to no decision whatever as to whether any or whet
measure should be introduced for a change of the law.
Therefore the Commissioners reported nothing, and wanted
the House to do nothing. He agreed with two or three of the
facts stated in the report of these Commissioners. The Com-
missioners stated distinctly that the public opinion of Eng-
land was opposed to any such measure ae the present. No one
could deny that the Bill before the House was agaie:st the
doctrine held by the Church of England, and whatever
might be said by those who wished to make it appear that
they were in connexion with the Church of England, but
who, by di, it practice, were not—by their decision he would
not be bound, as he was prepared, by the authority of the
Canons and Prayerbook of the Church of England, to prove
that. such a measure was alike in direct opposition to both.
With respect to the law f Scotland which this Bill pro-
posed to supersede, he called the attention of the House to
the fact that that law was not a municipal law—that it was
not such as Lord Ilardwicke or Lord Lyndhurst proposed to
set aside, for it was founded in the confession of faith set out
in the sth of William and Mary, and stating that no man
was to marry a nearer relation of his wife than of his own.
That was no obsolete statute, not having reference to the
feelings of the present day; for the opinion of the clergy
of Scotland was against the measure, as admitted by the
Commissioners themselves; and if they added the laity also,
they would have been correct. His Right Honourable
Friend, the Secretary at War, had that very evening stated,
that if the Bill unhappily passed, he would move that it be
not extended to Scotland ; and he (Sir R. Inglis) hoped
the Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
would, on behalf of Ireland, give notice of a similar motion,
for he believed the feelings of the Irish people were as much
outraged as those of Scotland, by the introduction of such a
Bill. The Hon. and Learned Member for Southampton con-
tended that the present law of marriage in England arose
from the foul source of Henry the Eighth wishing to marry
Anne Boleyn. He denied that; but at all events, the prac-
tice of the universal church was against such marriages for
1,500 years. It also formed for the last 300 years a portion
of the canon law of England, and he trusted it never would
be set aside by en Act of that House. Should the Bill, how-
ever, get into Comrriittee, he would endeavour to modify it
as much as possible, particularly that clause which left
the clergy to perform such a marriage or not,
just as it pleased them. Hg, knew no greater source
of dissension in the Church than that would be ;
and he should, therefore, give it all the opposi-
tion in his power. Suppose, for example, the Rector of St.
Pancras refused to do so, and the Rector of St. Giles per-
formed such a m .rriage, would that, he would ask his Right
Hon. Friend, tend to promote unity or that one common
doctrine which members of the Church of England were so
willing to uphold? There was one circumstance, however,
of great importance, namely, the feelings of the women of
'England. He believed they were opposed to it, and wherever
he went to, the feeling was against such a proposition. He
did not allude to the 1,120 women whose petition the Hon.
Member for Devonport alluded to in his able speech ; lie did
,essatemean those alone, for he himself had many communica-
tions, and one in particular from a lady of rank and con-
dition, who sated that she had eleven sisters, and that
were the law hitherto as now proposed, she should not have
allowed one of them to come near the house, for she would
be jealous of them all.—(Laughter.) It was well know❑
that many sisters who devoted their lives to the care of the
orphan children of a deceased sister would never have en-
tered the house if this Bill were law, and would, as soon
as it was passed, abandon those children who owed so
much to their care and attention. He contended the Com-
missioners had not conducted that inquiry wi'sh that labo-
rious research which the case required, and that, therefore,
the report they presented to the House was exceed-
ingly defective. For his own part, he should be most
happy to extend, as far as he could, the reasonable happi-
ness of his fellow-creatures, but he must not do so
when it was opposed to the word and will of God, and he
therefore implored the House to reject this Bill, in deference
to the feeling of the people of England, to the great majority
of the people of Scotland, and of the people of Ireland, the
latter of whom expressed most ably their opinions by the
petitions presented to that House, by the clergymen of the
Established Church of that part of the United Kingdom. If
it be also true that the great Church of Rome concurred in
the same feeling; if it be true, as he had already said, that it
was peculiarly a woman's question, he implored of the House
not to violate the law of God, or his Church, or offend the
great mass of the people of this country, by the passing of
such a Bill.—((sheers.)
Mr. NAPIER then moved the adjournment of the de-
bate, after which the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve
o'clock.

PARLIAMEN TA ItY BUSINESS.
(From the Votes and Proceedings of the house of Commons.)
FRIDAY, MAY 4.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
The following Resolutions were reported from the above
Committee:-
1. That in the case of the Lancashire and Yorkshire
Railway (Extension of Ashton Branch, of Clifton Branch,
&c.) petition for additional Provision, the standing orders
ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be permitted
to introduce their additional Provision if the Committee on
the Bill shall think fit.

2. That in the case of the South Devon Railway (to
regulate prio ity of Dividends) petition, the standing orders
ought not to be dispensed with.
3. That in the case of the Westhead's Patent (for Im-
provements in Manufacturing Fur into Fabrics) petition,
the standing orders ought to be dispensed with: —That the
parties be permitted to proceed with their bill, on inserting
the notice once in the London Gazette:—That the Com-
mittee on the Bill do examine, in the first place, how far such
order has hem complied with, and do report the same to
the [louse on the report of the Bill.
First and third Resolutions agreed to.—Report to lie on
the table.