The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-29 00:00:00

It appeared to him to be desirable that they should limit
the duration of a measure of such exceptional policy;
and after the expiration of the five or six: years tor
which he would coutinue the Act, they could most
conv,niently determine whether or not they would con-

tinue it.
Sir G. GREY opposed the prc.viso. Ile thought that
it would defeat the to-,in object of the clause; inasmuch
as it would deprive parties disposed to invest money in
the cultivation of hod in Ireland of the assurance that
there would be a limit to the amount of rativg to which
they would be sul-j.,c%
Mr. SCROPE supported the proviso.
After a few words from Colonel Dunne, Mr. M. J.
O'Connell, Mr. It M. Fox, and Mr. Clements, the Com-
mittee divided, when there appared—
For the proviso
Against it ... ... 66
Majority
Oa the question that the clause stand part of the
Bill,

Mr. S. CRAWFORD complained that no reserve
'und was provided by the Bel, and, therefore, when the
maximum rate was exhausted the people must be left to
die. He was surprised that the representatives of the
towns, of all others, should support the maximum rate.
Feeling that the proposition was a delusion and an in-
justice to the poor and the rate-payers, he felt bound to
record his opposition to it by taking the sense of the
Committee on the clause.
After a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH and Mr. P.
SCROPE,
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it ... 24
Majority ••• .•• ••• —32
On clause 2 tieing read,
Sir G. GREY moved the omission of the words, " on
the 29th of September in each year," and the insertion,
in lieu thereof, " as soon as possible after the 25th of
March which shall be in the year 1850, and in each
subsequent year."
Mr. NAPIER suggested the postponement of the date
till the 29. h September, 1850.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained the ground upon which the Government had
fixed the date at the 25th of March, as they believed
that it would be less onerous to the ratepayers than the
other period.
After some conversation, in which Mr. Vesey.
Clements, Sir D. Norreys, and some other Hon. Mew
hers took part,
Sir R. FERGUSON observed that the Government
were, in his opinion, proceeding in direct contravention
of the principles of the poor-law, and suggested that the
clause should be withdrawn by the promoters of the
Bid, and reconsidered
Mr. MONSELL said it was not just to allow the
union rate to have a retrospective ef&ct. He moved to
insert the word " September" instead of " March."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied
that there was any injustice in the proposition of the
Government. The fact of not levying for the union rate
for twelve months would counterbalance any disadvan-
tage that might be apprehended.
The Committee divided, the numbers were—
For Sir G. Grey's amendment 40
Against it „.. 18
Majority —22
Mr. STAFFORD then moved in clause 2 to leave out
all the words after " electoral division of such union" in
line 9. Ile would take the sense of the Committee as to
whether the union rate should be negatived or affirmed.
The. Committee again divided, when the numbers were--e
For Mr. Stafford's amendment ... 18
Against it ... ... 43
Majority in favour of original clause —25
Mr. STAFFORD then rose to move to omit the words
" or so much thereof as with due diligence it has been
practicable to levy." He said that there was no point of
the Gevernmenaproposition that was of greater import-
ance than what was contained in those words. It would
be in the power of the Poor-law Commissioners to de-
cide when the maximum rate shall cease in the electoral
divisions and the union rate shall commence. The
power, he thought, would strike at the root of self-de-
pendence. By adopting the principle of the clause they
would violate the system of self local taxation in Ireland
under the plea of necessity—a s)sttm which they dared
not violate in England. He also objected to the clause,
inasmuch as it made the Poor-low Commissioners the
sole judges of the necessity of levying a rate fur the re-
-lof of the poor. The measure under consideration was.
he considered, a gross injustice attempted to be perpe-
trated by a Government upon a people no matter where.
He thought that the Ministry would act wisely in recon-
sidering the point.
Sir G. GREY said that the practical (iffiest of the
amendment would be to neutralise the adoption of union
rating. The Commissioners had no power granted to
them under the Bill to impose a tax; they were merely
empowered to decide upon whom the tax should be levied
—whether upon the electoral divisions or the unions.
After a conversation, in which Colonel Dunne, Mr.
H. Herbert, and Mr. O'Flaherty took part,
Mr. FAGAN said he would support the Government,
because he did not believe that the boards of guardians
could properly wield such a power as was to be created
by the Bill.
Mr. NAPIER supported the amendment. The per-
sons on the spot, the persons intrusted to deal with the
property of Ireland, were the proper parties to judge of
the necessities of the cases when they arose. The Com-
missioners would only have one anxiety, that of getting
the money; and if they were informed that in one toe
cality a rate could not be collected, they might relieve
that locality at the expense of another which had already
done its duty.
Mr. HENLEY sugggested that a rule should be laid
down that a certain portion of the rate should be paid
up before the rate in aid was put in force; but he thought
the Commissioners were the proper parties in whom the
discretion should be lodged.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Hon. Gentleman entirely concurred in the view which
the Government took of the question. The Poor-law
Commissioners were the only parties who could fairly
judge whether the rate had been bona fide collected in
the electoral divisions or not.
After a desultory conversation,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re"
marked that it was impossible to lay down any uniform
rule for Ireland.
Mr. MONSELL said that such an observation was
the best argument that could be used against a Bill
which proposed to lay down a uniform rate for all
Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped
that when they were settling the details of the Bill they
would not be carried away with a discussion on the
principle of the Bill itself. That principle had been
determined, and now he hoped they would devote them-
selves, as far as it was possible, to improve the measure
in its details.
Mr. STAFFORD replied.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion 79
For the amendment . . 23
Majority against the amendment ... —56
Mr. VESEY objected to giving any board of guardians
the power of paying any charge on a neighbouring
electoral division out of funds in the hands of the trea-
surer of the union, which had been paid in by any other
electoral divisions of the union, and which electoral
division had duly paid up the rate. The Hon. Gentle-
man proposed an amendment to remedy this, which,
after some discussion, was withdrawn.
Lord NAAS moved a proviso to the effect that the
Commissioners should not issue their order for the 2s.
union rate, until they should receive a certificate from
the board of guardians, stating that duo diligence had
been used in collecting the ss. electoral rate.
After some conversation, the Committee divided. The
numbers were—
For the amendment ... 48
Against it ... ••• ••• ... 88
Majority against the amendment ... —4O
Colonel DUNNE moved the addition of the following
proviso at the end of the second clause—" That it shall
not be lawful for any board to strike a rate of 2s. in the
pound in any union fur any longer period than two
years from September, 1849."
Tho Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso
Against it ... 103
Majority against the proviso —65
On the question that the clause stand part of the Bill,
Sir W. BARRON opposed the clause. He considered
the rateable property of Ireland incanable of supporting
the poor, and thought It exceedingly unfair to levy a
rate in aid in one district for the support of another.
If a rate in aid was necessary let it be levied on income
and property which at present paid nothing to the sup-
port of the poor. He moved the omission of the clause.
After a few words from Sir G. GREY,
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the clause... ... 108
Against it ... ..• ... 52
Majority
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit again to-morrow (this day), at half-
past four o'clock.
The Mutiny and Desertion (India) Bill was read a
third time, and passed.
The Leasehold Tenure of Lands (Ireland) Bill WU
read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
The Estates Leasing (Ireland) Bill was committed.
Captain JONES moved, on the first clause being pro.
posed, that the Chairman should report progress and ask
leave to sit again. The Bill was of great importance,
affecting as it did a number of estates in Ireland.
Colonel Dunne,' Mr.
Sir
A.A.Bfterrookae, i conversationr.
. si
tna
ffwhich Major Blackall
,donsell, and Lord John Russell took part, the Com.
mittee divided. The numbers were--
Ayes ...
Noes '"
unDdeurrsitnogod
was made to report
otnori7a ~avjeo Majority ' •• • -- -
•.. ..• ••.-76
absence fromn
agreedthteo,gaaoldleray
seaaocoladumseotwioans
progress, to which no objection was
then made.
The
Committee on the Estates Leasing (Ireland) Bill
MIS Under:4ood to be fixed for this day.
The Turnpike Roads (Ireland) Bill passed through
Committee.
The Pupils' Protection (Scotland) Bill passed
through Committee.
The Marriages in Foreign Countries Facilitating
Bill, and the Sewers Act Amendment (No. 2) Bill,
passed through Committee.
The House then went into Committee on the Bank-
ruptcy (Ireland) Bill. The several clauses of the Bill
were agreed to, with the exception of the 69th and
112th, which were postponed ; and the Chairman re-
ported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on
Monday.
The Turnpike Trusts Union Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be Committed on Thursday twit
(July IS).

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