The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-13 00:00:00

in Ireland, had been that baneful one by which Ireland had
been misgoverned for the last 40 years. He should, before
entering upon the consideration of the questi.in at large,
first vindicate his own character and that of the Com-
mittee of which he bad the honour to be one, against the
assertions thrown out by the Grand o..ange Lodge of Ireland.
that Lodge consisted of a very powerful body ; he dared to so)
that one half of the Protestants of the Established Church of
Ireland, of adult age, were Orangemen ; of the yeomanry
corps consisting of twenty-seven thousand men,
he u7s satisfied that 25,000 at least were Oi-angeinen.—( Hear,
hear.) Of the police, amounting to 7,000 or 8,000, there
were between 4,000 and 5,000 of the same description, and the
number of grand jurors, petit jurors, magistrates, sheriffs, and
sub-sheriffs that belonged to that body, no man who was not
acquainted with its details could conjecture the extent to which
Orangeism prevailed. When he recollected that the principle
on which that body was founded was deadly hostility to the
great mass of the population of that country—( Loud cries of
" No, no," from the Opposition benches). If Hon. Gentle-
men would bare the kindness to hear him out, he thought

he should be able to prove it, if not to their satisfaction,

because they laboured wider such a delusion and hallucination,

that it was impossible to convince them ; but he should con-
vince any impartial mind in the empire out of the lodges.
The people of Ireland were denounced as their natural enc-
.

. .
mies.—( No, no.) They were constituted for the purposes of
loyalty and religion, but no Roman Catholic could be a
. .

C./ •
IViemiSer • and although he recanted and calumniated the re-
ligion of his fathers, that man must be unanimously recom-
mended before he purged himself sufficiently to be ad-
mitted. The charge which ha intended to vindicate the Coni-

mittee against, was contained in a document in the Evening
Mail, and in many journals in this country, and its authenticity
had been avowed by the Hon. Member for Cavan. He would

show to the House-that the statements in that document were
utterly unfounded. (The Hon. Iklember here referred to the
document published by the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland.)
It was stated in that document that the Committee which had
been appointed upon his motion was not one from which im-
partiality could be expected. When he had the honour of sub-
mitting his motion for that Committee, he proposed that
13 of them should be Orangemen or Tories, and 14 of the
other side, and by choosing the Hon. Member for Lancashire
as Chairman the two parties were exactly even. The Hon. and
Learned Member then proceeded at some length to show that the
Committee had been appointed with a view to a fair and im-
partial investigation. He would ask the House was that
a Committee to be denounced for partiality—for a hatred of
the existing Constitution, and an anxiety to separate Ireland
from England ? Was that a fair description of the Com-
mittee ?—( Loud cries of No, no.) Let the House re.

collect thesauthority upon which this description went forth

The document further boasted that the religiOn of the Orange
men was that of a majority of the population of the empire.
This he would deny. He never heard a tolerant Protestan
who did not repudiate the idea of embracing the same reli
gious opinions as the Orangemen. —(" Oh," and laughter from
the Opposition—" Hear" from part of the Ministerial side.)
It was also stated at that meeting that the Committee con-
sisted of Repealers. Now this charge was equally untrue.
There were only three Repealers; himself, the Member for
Dublin, and the Member for Tipperary (Mr. Shiel). Mr.
Wyse, who was on the Committee, was not a Repealer; in
fact, he lost his seat by his not being one. The Committee
consisted of only four Catholics, thirteen Orangemen, and
nine liberal Protestants. (The Hon. Member enumerated
the names of the Committee, descanting on the professed opi-
nions of each, and took occasion to eulogize the character and
conduct of the late Lord Milton and his fancily.) The Hon.
Member then proceeded to read, at great length, extracts
from the evidence taken before the Committee of last session,
with a view of showing that the administration of justice in
Ireland was materially impeded by the existence of the Orange
Societies. The Hon. Member concluded by moving—
" That Orangeism has been productive of the most baneful ef-
fects upon the character and administration of public justice in
Ireland ; that its prevalence in the constabulary and peace preser-
vation forces and yeomanry corps of that country has led individual
members, as well as large bodies of the above descriptiop 'of force,
to the gross neglect and violation of the public duty, and to the
open, daring, and lawless resistance to the authority of the Magis•
tracy, and of the Executive Government on various occasions ;
that the systematic and surreptitious introduction of Orangeism into
every branch of the military service, into almost every part of the
empire, in direct violation of orders issued in 1822 and 1829, by
the Commander-in-Chief of his Majesty's Forces, and the absolute
power and controul vested by its governing bodies, the Grand
Orange Lodge of England and of Ireland, in his Royal Highness
the Duke of Cumberland, together with the rank, station, influ-
ence, and numbers of that formidable and secret conspiracy, are
well calculated to excite serious apprehensions in all his Majesty's
loyal subjects, and imperatively call for the most energetic expres-
sion on the part of the Representatives of the People of this Empire,
to secure the safe, the peaceable, the legal, and righful succession
to the Throne of these realms."
Mr. C. BULLER supported the motion, and complained
that the Magistrates were appointed from party motives, and
that the Judges were influenced by Orange prejudices. The
Hon. Member, in support of his assertion, quoted the evidence
given before the Committee appointed to inquire into the cha
racier of Orange Lodges and societies by Lord Gosford and
Mr. Sinclair, which he considered confirmatory of what had
been advanced by the Hon. Member who had brought forward
the subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not rise for the purpose of dis-
cussing the terms of the resolution, though if he chose to do
so he could find a sufficiency in that respect to object to; but to
express his dissent from adopting a resolution which contained
so many clauses, involving such weighty charges, and affect-
ing such important matters, in a House similar to that which
he then addressed.—( Hear, hear.) It was quite evident from
the state of the House that th 6 opportunity taken by the Hon.
Member was not the fitting one, and he believed he could
perceive that the temper of the Honourable Members present
was not in a disposition to decide the great question involved
in the resolution. It was clear that if a decision had been ex-
pected on that great and important question, there would be
e much better attendance of Hon. Members than there was--
( Hear)—and therefore, he thought that the better way would
bolo postpone the consideration of the whole subject to a fu-
ture period, rather than to take a decision on one half of it one
slay, and another half of it another.—( Hear, hear.) Not
seeing any Hon. Member disposed to interpose in defence of
Orange Societies, and not wishing to urge it on until all was
ready, he should propose that the debate on the question be
adjourned.—(Heir, hear.) There were two notices on the
same subject on the books ; the one on the 23d of this month,
by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, the other by the Hon.
and Gallant Member opposite for a Select Committee. He
( Lord J. Russell) thought it would be better to adjourn the
decision until the former day. If the debate were adjourned
he would be prepared against it was resumed to state the view
entertained by his Majesty's Ministers on the subject; and
also his reason for not adopting the course proposed by either
Hon. Member. He should likewise be ready to state the
reason why, without going any further into the inquiry, the
House should at the commencement of the Session express an
opinion on the nature and tendency of Orange Societies.—
(Hear.) He should do those things in two resolutions, which
on that occasion he would submit to the House. He did not,
ho .; ever, mean to preclude himself, in taking this course, front
assenting to any motion respecting secret societies. He was
an enemy to all secret societies—( Hear, hear)—and if by in-
quiry in a Select Committee, or:by any other means, a mode
could be devised for suppressing them effectually, he would
willingly adopt it, for he was fully convinced that by suppress-
ing all secret societies he would be doing a benefit to Ireland,
a service to religion, and an act of justice to the kingdom at
large.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluding by mov-
ing, as an amendment, that the further consideration of the
question be adjourned to Tuesday, the 23d inst.
•Mr. MAXWELL said that he was fully prepared to meet
all the charges urged against the Orange Society by its ene-
mies ; and was most anxious to state to the House some facts
on the subject, as well as his view of the conduct of individual
members of it. He was as close an attendant on it as the
Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Hume). But as he understood
it was the wish of his Majesty's Government not, to protract
the discussion at present, he was perfectly ready to waive his
own wish as well as his own personal convenience, and accede
to the proposition of the Noble Lord.
The amendment was agreed to.
ORANGE LODGES IN THE ARMY.

Mr. HUME said he had a motion of considerable import-
ance,
in conne'tion with the subject of the last resolution, to
propose to the House. Originally it was for " A return of
the names of Officers not on full pay, or liable to trials by
Court Martial, who had been dismissed the army for attending
Orange lodges." He had asked the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary. at War, what orders had been issued from the Horse
Guards, respecting Officers who subsequently to the order of
the 31st of August, bad been made Orangemen, or had conti.
nued to attend Orange lodges ? He had been snswered that
the Duke of Cumberland was not on full-pay, and therefore
not liable to orders from head-quarters. He would now beg
to ask the Noble Lord, if his Majesty had the power of dis-
missing without a Court Martial, why should that power be
withheld in the case of Officers on half-pay, who might have
disgraced the army ? When he saw the Secretary at War on
the subject he had a list of over 1,000 individuals who had
been dismissed from the service without any cause assigned.
What answer could be 'made, then, when the highest indivi-
dual in the land but one disobeyed his Majesty's orders with
impunity?—(Hear, hear.) In August last, the ['OUT had
called the attention of his Majesty to the subject of Orange
Lodges in the army : and, in consequence of that appeal, the
order of the 31st of the same month was issued by the Com-
mander-in- Chief.- The conversation he had with the Secre-
tary at War had induced him to change the terms of his reso-
lution, and the question he should now bring beforo the House
was, that there be laid upon the table of the House a Return
of all the officers of each rank, not liable to trial by court-
martial, who had -been removed from the army list without
reason assigned, together with their names, and the nature of
their several respective offences. If that Return were made,
it would then be his duty to submit to that House—in case the
Duke of Cumberland continued to treat with derision the or-
der of that House, and to refuse obedience to all orders from
head-quarters, which every other officer in the service obeyed
—it would then be his duty, he said, to submit to the House,
on the principle that disobedience of orders is as inexcusable
in the high rank of Field Marshal as in the low one of subaltern,
motion to inquire how far the Commander-in-Chief, Lord
Hill, had done his duty.—( Hear, hear.) If officers depen-
dent upon that Act which was annually passed in that House
denied its orders, the only appeal left was to the decision and
firmness of that House itself. He was prepared to prove
that, in the years 1822 and 1829, Lord Hill, as Commander-
in- Chief, issued orders forbidding Orange Lodges in the army.
He would also prove that, as colonel of a regiment, the Duke
of Cumberland was cognizant of them, as in that capacity he,
as well as the adjutants, was furnished with copies. He would
prove that the Duke of Cumberland disobeyed them, and that
Lord Hill, in leaving him untouched for that breach of orders,
had not done his duty. And 14
W 43 prepitroa to bring the