The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-09 00:00:00

THE REV. MR. MARTIN DOYLE.

ship-owners of Plymouth against the additional duty 021
Canada timber..•-Adjourned.

Lord CLIFDEN had a petition in his bands, to be
presented, from the Rev. Mr. Martin Doyle. the object of
which was to clear his character from certain imputations
which he had understood to have been cast against it in
that House. He had some doubts whether this petition
rantld, in point of form, be received ; but the petitioner
stated that he had been for fifteen years parish priest of
Donegal, in the county of Carlow, which was within a
mile and a half of the resldence of Lord Farnham—that in
the course of that time he had been a member of an asso-
ciation for preserving the peace of the country—that he
hod been instrumental in detecting and bringing to justice
certain persons who had been great disturber' of the public
peace, and had received the thanks of the Protestant
Rector of the parish, and a Grand Jury of the county of
Carlow—that he had been very intimate with Lord Farn-
ham, who was a member of the association to which he
alluded, and he expressed his conviction that Lord Farn-
ham was too honourable a man not to bear witness to the
truth of his statement ; and, finally, he produced four affi-
davits to show that he had no concern with the distur-
bances on account of tithes, although he knew that they
were a most grievous burden to the country.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose to order. This
was not a petition, and the Noble Lord himself had stated
at the outset, that in point of form it could net be received.
Lord CLIFDEN contended that he had a right to real
the address of the Grand Jury at least, if not to read the
s'Edtvita.

The LORD CHANCELLOR was unwilling to inter-
rupt any of their Lordships, and more particularly when
he was speaking for a party who stood on his defence.—
But really they must preserve some order in their pro-
ceedings. In the other House they had a Speaker, whose
peculiar business it was to preserve order; but their Lord-
ships' Speaker had no more to do in that respect than any
of their Lordships ; but speaking es a Per, he must ob-
serve, that all this proceeded on a breach of their privi-
leges. lie complained of what passed in that House,
although he could not, without a breach of privilege,know
what passed there. To be sure their Lordships winked at
these things; but if a man came there with a distinct
statement of a breach of privilege, they must take notice of
it, and therefore the matter had better be left on what his
Lordship had already *Wed, and on what another Noble
Lord (Farnham) might choose to say.
Lord CLIFDEN had already pretty well attained his
object.

Lord FARNHAM—Although this proceeding was not
regular, yet be hoped the House would indulge him with
a few words. He had before stated that he had been well
acquainted with M.
Doyle,
him. It was perfectl and had a great opinion of
V correct that he had been a Mem-
ber of the Association for preserving the peace of the coun-
try, and had done much fortl,
j eat object. He had been
burgluamrs, three of whom had
instrental in bringing to
b n
ice a desperate gang of
ue
gad, and two
ported. It was perfectly correct that trans-
hehad received the
thanks of the Grand Jury of the county of
at the same time when he was on terms of Carlow. But
with
Mr. Doyle, he was not concerned in politics, nor 00
her fined
agi-
tation on account of tithes or any other. He confined
in co
himself to his parochial duties, except in to far as
concerned in the preservation of the peace of the country,W
But in the course of the last two years he had assumedaa
different character. He had already stated that he had a
high opinion of the character of Mr. Doyle, when he was
intimate with him, and very much regretted that he was
obliged to change it.
The petition was then withdrawn.
The Earl of MORLEY presented a petition (ma the

Constitution and the deepest philosophy, with ever's, or-
nament which historical and fictitious literature could
supply. Did any Gentleman suppose that, after that
HOUSE OF commOi.VS, MAPcx S. speech, he might not defy any patron or any Minister to
The gallery was not opened this afternoon until a Quar- unseat him.—(Hear.) Free that borough as they might
ter past Five o'clock, in consequence of there being three that Hon. Member had now such a tie upon his consti-
ballots for three Election .Cominitteeee far the city tuentstbat he could not be separated from them.—(Hear.)
of Londonderry, Dover, and Stockbridge. The Commit- What cared that geiAtlaktan now for the influence of the
tees having been appointed, and a few petitions presented, Mareuis of Lansdowne? Did not gentlemen observe the
The order a the day for resuming the debate on the difference between the elegant speech which the Learned
Referee measure was read. Gentleman (the Member for Drogheda) delivered last night,
Mr. O'CONNELL rose ‘l.' a teLtlarter before Six o'clock, and his former addresses to the 11°u-es from the opposite
His object in
,presentii4 himself to the House was for , side, tyhere he sat ab th'S representative of a rotten ho-
the purooee of giving his most decided and anxious rough . lid they not last night mark the independence of
support to the Bill of Reform,_( c •h 'o s—
his tone, the vivacity of his manlier, the vigour of his lan-
ies of ea., cleans
He looked upon the plan as id,rgt, liberal, and wise. He guage? When he was on the opposite side, sitting for a
would go
further, ape 'A'y it was generous.—(Hear.)—ln rotten borough, and regularly attending the divieions—
fact, it wan te ellectual measure of Reform.—(Loud cheer- (Laughter)—did they remember how his powers were
t.tg, tea cries of hear from all parts of the House.)—if his restricted; and his "soiee used to tremble when he
spoke.
Majesty's Ministers had offered less the country *Mild ' --`(Laeireldtet.) Cod help those who crawled into that
have required more ; but if the COttitty reeniired 'entire House.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was another spe-
than was offered. it might ratlotially eepent to be disap- cimen of rotten boroughs in Ireland. The resolutions of
pointed. The measure shonid haSie leie. support, and if he the House said that no Prelate should meddle in the eke-
possessed influence eeseedsetst that influence should he ex- tion of Memhert to sit in that House. But he (Mr.
treed in favour of the till. It was well known that he
O'COne.ell) believed he saw near him a gentleman who was
was a radical reformer. It was well known Mt opinion notoriously sent there by a Prelate.—(Great laughter.)
was in favour of universal nitrate for short dura- He did not say that the borbugh of Armagh was the only
tion of Parliament, and vett by ballot. Yet he would one in Ireland he the elections of
,which a Prelate exercised
not object to the reeent measure, although it embraced none a controesling influence. That borough was celebrated for
of three principles, it was liberal without them. the miracles, but he believed it had never produced a greater
measure would have the effect of proving e'epe'S imentally that miracle than the conversion of a Chancellor of the Exche-
if no farther extension was eteeaOnded, no further extension suer.—(Laughter.) Scarcely had the Right Hon. Gen-
was necessary. If it te..tistied the country it would prove tleman taken his seat, when the Orangemen, the Metho-
that univeresl suffrage and vote by ballot were unneces- dints, and the Presbyterians of Armagh burnt hiin in
earys As a radical reformer, he accepted the motion effigy. Yet had the Learned Member for Boroughbridge
neith all his heart.—(Hear.) He certainly might relse all beeii as much in a pathetic as in a comic mood; he would
objection that the principle did not go fat enough as re- not merely have been like Niobe, all tears—(Laughter.)
garded Ireland, but he had no doubt the Administration —he would have been careled out of the House in tears,
thought they had gone tar enough in that respect; and as for the atrocious and unconstitutional project for striking off
the nreastte iVis of such an advantageous nature for the the two Members of the Prelate's borough of Armagh.
Btitillt community, sorry should lie te to offer any There were other boroughs to lie thrown open, in speaking
opposition.—(Hear.)—it had the effect of opening all of which it was not possible for any man to be in a merry
close boroughs ; iS gave to all copyhold proprietors of mood. Gentlemen are aware that there is another class
10/. a .yea`' the same advantages as those possessed of of persons who crowd around a new Member of Par-
freeolds for counties, and never had he hoard any cause ' liainent (and they crowded around him, Mr. O'Connell,
assigned why they should not be ple.ced oh au equality. little as he had to do with England), and ask him does be
As it related to counties it sees a measure highly bene- know of a third man.—(Hear, and laughter. )—They say
ficial. An objection bed been started to it as it re- that they have got two to stand, and if they could only
hated to eountlee by a Right Hon. Gentleman, by saying find a third man, he would be sure to get in.—(Great
that teetnty-eight counties were to have ten additional laughter.)—Was that the Old Constitution—(Cheers)—
Members, and the Privy Council were to have authority to so much talked of by those conscientious, religious, scru-
divide the counties, each district of the county having pulous gentlemen, who would ask a man his creed at that
authority to return two Members. It had been said that table before he would consent teellis sitting amongst them.
this was an unconstitutional proceeding, but he (Mr. —( Cheers. )—He would ask the Noble and Learned Mem-
O'Connell) could not for his life conjecture on what her for Boroughbridge—and he assured him that of no
possible ground it could be called unconstitutional.— man's integrity and worth he had a higher opinion—
The Privy Council in Ireland were employed in a similar (Hear)—he would ask him, as a conscientious man, as a
manner. Counties were divided into local districts by responsible being, would he give his voice for the preser-
barristers of the country, under the authority of the vation of a system which opened such a field for prefli-
Privy Council, and all the litigation that took place was gacy, corruption, and the violation of the privileges of
tried according to divisions, nor had any man ever that House every six years, almost every year.—(Hear,
made a complaint against such proceedings.—(Hear, hear.)—Would any one—at least, would any one out of
hear, hear.) The Privy Council, toe, in Ireland that House—(A laugh)—deny that such was the case in
divided parishes, and there never had been a single all the half-open boroughs ? Nobody. Would any one
complaint against that. Thus the experiment pro- in that House deny it ? Certainly, no one ; except those
posed by the present measure was not a novel who in sophistical speeches, which say nothiwg distinctly,
experiment—if it was it was a harmless one. After all, and deceive the speakers themselves, insinuate what they
if the Privy Council in England acted wrong—if they dared not assert.—(Cheers.)—Who would deny that the
made an unfair division of one county, was votes of those burgesses were sold as oxen were sold in
it to be supposed that they would make an unfair divi- Smithfield, and that the seats which represent them
vision of many counties—(Hear, hear, hear)—and if were sold and let as the stalls in Leadenhall market.—
they did make an unfair division of two, three, or four (Cheers.)—Did any man suppose that the people
counties, was there not a power in Parliament to of England would not resist and destroy that system
ever-rule and check such improper proceedings ? of corruption ?He did not mean by any sudden vio-
(Cheers.) Who could suppose that such a base proceeding fence, but by the force of opinion rising gradually, calmly,
on the part of the Privy Council would he endurable for and irresistibly, as a giant rising from his sleep.—(Bear,
an hoar?—(Hear, and cheers.) The Hon. Member was hear, hear.) Was it fit, then, that gentlemen with the
sore it coied not possibly be, and that he would only he full knowledge that corruption was so common in those
wasting the time of the House by expatiating further boroughs, and tolerating that corruption themselves, should
on such a subject.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—ln England it come into that house and gravely vote a resolution that
could be neither more nor less (the division of the any person obtaining a seat there by bribery is guilty of a
counties) than an unmixed good. No one had stated gross violation of the right of the Commons of England?
any thing like a solid objection to it; and he rejoiced —(Laughter and cheers.) It might be very well to re-
' heartily in the prospect of getting an increased number of solve all that in jest. But the people were not in jest when
constituents, as well as an increased number of they demanded that the nomination of Members by Peers,
county Members, of whom it had been said, and truly and the purchase of seats by money, should both be got
said, they were the least revolutionary of any.—(Con, rid of. Gentlemen said, that the Bill of the Noble Lord
tinued cheers.) The next part of the speech of the Noble would produce a fantastic variety of votes—(Laughter)—
Lord opposite related to the boroughs, and he was delighted that was the word—a fantastic variety. Had they not at
with the mode in which the Noble Lord had treated present as fantastic a variety as could he desired ? Had
those boroughs. lie had applied the pruning-knife they not Mayors and Aldermen, Mayors and Jurats,
to the rotten boroughs of this country with a Mayors and Liverymen, scot and lot payers, potwollopers,
thorough masterly hand.— (Hear, hear.) He had cut up and every variety of electors that the most fantas is taste
unsparingly, root and branch, those rotten, close, and ob- could give a name to?—(Laughter.) On the contrary, the
noxious boroughs.—(Hear.) What had been the com- Bill would put an end to the motley constituency. It was
plaints of the House, what had been the complaints of complained that it was an act of disfranchisement of the
the people about those rotten and close boroughs, non-resident freemen. It should rather be said that they
and had those complaints been idle cr imaginary ? disfranchised themselves, even under the existing system,
(Hear, hear. )--The people had complained of them— by their non-residence, of every thing but the power to
the public had complained of thein—the House had com- sell a vote. He was glad that, with the exception of non-
plained of them—they were in direct contradiction residents, the Bill left the suffrage of existing freemen
to every theory of our Constitution. Every atom of undisturbed. The Ministers had very properly abstained
our constitutional principle was violated by them. When from interference with vested rights as much as was
men talked to him (Mr. O'Connell) of a new Constitution, consistent with the great object which they had in view
he had to ask them what the old Constitution was ? —(Cheers.) This measure, lacing one of experiment,
(Cheers.) He had to ask them whether it was not fit that they had very wisely confine I its operation within the nar-
the people should be fairly and properly represented, rowest limits which its fundamental principles would el-
and not that the mound of Old Sarum should send its low.—(Cheers.) The next objection to which he would
Member,' into that House.—(Cheers.) Who could ven- advert teas merely arithmetical ; it was, that of the Hon.
ture to say that Old Sarum was a constitutional Member for Aldborough, who complained that two Mem-
borough ? The very right of sending a Member for Tralee hers were given to Tavistock, which had but four or five
had been inserted in a marriage settlement as a lady's fortune, thousand inhabitants, whilst Brighton, with its population
and at this very moment a Noble Lord in the Treasury of 24,000, was to have also but two representatives. But
represented that place through such marriage settlement, it was a fallacy to say that two representatives were given
—(Hear, hear.) Theoretical writers, lawyers, judges, to Tavistock.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He
and all denounced the practice adopted in respect of those thanked gentlemen behind him for their cheers. Ile
boroughs. Why should Noble Lords and gentlemen have would grant that something was given to Tavistock by the
the right to nominate Members to sit in that House.— bill. From a close borough it lied become open. Instead
(Cheers. )—Had they not beard in the course of this dis. of twenty-four electors it was to have one thousand--(Great
cussion of the boroughs of the Duke of Norfolk--of the cheering on both sides)—and to Brighton, which hitherto
Duke of Newcastle—of the Duke of Devonshire—of had no representatives, two were given. But from whom
the Marquis of Cleveland—of the Marquis of Lansdowne— did the argument come, that Tavistock ought not to send
and of other Nebles ? Had the House not heard as many Members to Parliament as Brighton ? From the
of their boroughs—of their provinces, and admirable gentleman who would give no more representatives to
tact at finding out young men of genius and talent Lancashire than to Rutland, and would give as many to
and winging their way about with the olive-branch in Gatton as to the city of Westminster.—(Vehement cheer-
their hand, until they found a suitable object on which ing and laughter.) These gentlemen called the mea-
to bestow their favour.—(Hear.) Was this consistent sure a revolution, because it would take down from the
with the Constitution of the country ? What was the Constitution the handy-work of those who had made it
first rule and determination of that house? Before like the walls of Appleby—(Laughter)—so patched and
they had even sat a single moment in that House ; built upon, that scarcely a spot of the original fabric
before the King's Speech had been read to them could lie seen. Ministers seemed to be disposed to
--(a King, than whom no King that ever sat on restore it as nearly as possible to its original state,
any throne would ever deserve better of his subjects)— And in the repair to preserve as much as they
that it would be a high infringement of the rights of the can of the structure now standing.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Commons of the United Kingdom for any Membsr of Perlin.- Member for Aldborough had also treated the blouse to
inent, Peer, or Prelate—(Laughter)—toconcern himself, or another discussion, in a tone with which he (Mr. O'C.)
to take any part in the election of a Member to serve was certainly familiar.—(Laughter.) He would admit
in the Commons House of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) that if he were acquainted with any style of oratory, it
Good God, was this to be sounded into their ears, and yet was mob-oratory.—(lleir, and laughter.) He did not
were the Lords to send their Members one after the other mean to say that such oratory as he had heard from the
in the most open and avowed manner into that House Hon. Member fur Aldborough and the Learned Member
for those rotten and close boroughs.--(Loud cheers.)-- for Boroughbridge, would satisfy mobs to which he had
Should Gentlemen tell him in the teeth of that house, been accustomed—(Laughter)—for the people were good
that the giving that power to a Lord was the " Old Con• judges of reasoning on subjects that concerned their own
stitution ?" Yet these were the gentlemen who denied interests. The Hon. Member for Aldborough had endea-
hypocrisy. The hypocrisy of that resolution was theirs, voured to show inconsistency in the arguments of the
or they were parties to it. If any gentleman attempted Learned Lord (the Member for Dundee), and the quota-
to violate that resolution clandestinely it was the duty of tion of the Noble Lord (the; proposer of the Bill. But
the Speaker to defeat that attempt. But if the violation the Hon Gentleman had misapplied the quotation of the
of it was, as gentlemen insisted, the " Old Constitution," one, and mistaken the argument of the other. He referred
he would say, let the question he regularly brought before the Noble Lord back to the Statutes of Edward the First,
the House, and let the resolution he rescinded.—(Cheers.) "De Tallagi non concedendo." There the Noble Lord
—But let them not be told that a Bill to enforce its ob- had found the principle, but the Member for Aldhorough
servance, whilst it stood upon their hooks, was a revolu- would argue that he ought to have taken it with all the him-
tion.—(Cheers. )—The Hon. Member for Cailington had her and rubbish with which it was encumbered.--(Cheers.)
become quite enamoured of the " Old Constitution," since For his part, he (Mr. O'Connell) was delighted at the
he became possessed of his own borough ; in speaking of breaking up of the rotten boroughs ; and he did not care
which he was quite poetic, and called it a " violet." whether they were violets or not, he would sacrifice a whole
—(Great laughter.)—Others toll them that they were nosegay of them daily upon the altar of the Constitution.--
about to make an unjust seizure of the franchise by (Laughter.) lie looked upon their destruction as a va-
that Act of Parliament, and to commit a robbery. Let suable part of the Bill. But the cry, that that was a cor-
them see, then, who were really the robbere—(Cheers.)— poration robbery, had resounded through the blouse in
He never heard of a grant of a charter from the Crown, every variety of tone but a low one, and had been
empowering any one to send Members to Parliament. sung in every key but a minor.—(Laughter.)—Now he
He never heard of such a charter.—(Hear, hear.) No, (Mr. O'Connell) had had leisure to examine the cases of
the franchises were granted to the people; it was not then thirty-six of them, and of tie se how many did gentlemen
this Act that seized them, but this Act laid hold of the spa. suppose were not corporations at :Ill.—(heer, hear, and a
ii aors of them. They had no right to question the privileges laugh.)—Why just sixteen were corporations, and the re-
of the House of Lords, but they had as good a right to maining twenty had never been so at all.—(Laughter.)---
preserve the privileges and liberties of the Commons of The House would, perhaps, be surprised to hear that even
England.--(Great applause.)—The close boroughs the Boroughbridge itself was not a corporation at all. When
people understood perfectly; the people talked sense gentlemen said so much about the proposed measure being
out of doors upen the subject of Reform, and that a corporation robbery and a seizure of the franchise, he
common sense was, you have got our property, you have supposed they were inclined to assist him (Mr, O'Connell)
spoliated our liberties, but you shall disgorge them.— in obtaining a repeal of the Union. For, if there be in
He had heard the impartiality of the Ministers impugned, the Noble Lord's Bill a seizure of the franchises, such as
because they allowed the boroughs of Caine, Knares- Parliament had not a right to make, what would gentle-
borough, and Tavistock to retain their franchise. He men say to the seizure of the franchise of one hundred
(Mr. O'Connell) would not then utter into the particulars corporations at a sweep, by a single Act of Parliament.
of that question, though he knew something of at least (Great cheering.)—lt was also clear, that the Parliament
one of those boroughs. A petition complaining of the who disfranchised them had not tried and convicted them
return of the present Member for Caine had been entrusted for corruption, but they disfranchised them without guilt ;
to him for presentation; and in the inquiries upon the as it voted 13,000 guineas apiece to the proprietors of
petition, the seats of those became very doubtfol a sveek forty of them.—(Hear, hear.)—Now, gentlemen were
ago. en the sittings of the Comn,ittee he learned that the staring at him—not as if he spoke Irish, but as if lie had
corporation of cone contained at most but 46 Members. two heads upon him—(Laughter)—because he complained
By the Bill of the Noble Lord it would be thrown open. that the Act of Union hadgood 'ed
naturedly-suppli
Let any gentleman read the speech of the Hen. Member him with the forcible argument of corporation robbery
for Calne, combining the most extensive knowledge of thf and seizure of franchisee,—(Cheers and laughter.)--.The

\ .

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• •
S
and odd, by which that county was reduced to 364 elec-
tors, and Carlow to 140. From those facts it was then
apparent that the elective privileges of Ireland had been
reduced within exceedingly narrow limits. But there was
now another provision of the Bill, of which, on behalf of
Ireland, he thought he had a right to complain. It was
that by which borough freeholders were deprived of votes
in the county'. That was taking the privilege from a very
respectable and excellent class of electors, men who had the
independence and the intelligence to think for themselves,
and the sturdiness to act upon the suggestions of their own
consciences. A large class of the respectable inhabitants of
Belfast were thus excluded from any share in voting for the
representation of A utrim ; and the inhabitants of 'Praise,
in a similar way, from their proper share in the representa-
tion of Kerry, Then copyholders were enfranchised, or to
be enfranchised, by the present Bill, and so were termers
for years in England. Why were persons of a similar de-
scription in Ireland not to be enfranchised also? A very
large proportion of the property of Ireland was of necessity
let upon leases for years ; and surely if the principle
were good in England there was nothing in Ire-
land which went to vitiate it. A large proportion of the
church lands in Ireland were let upon leases for years, and
he might be asked, with what consistency did he demand
the enfranchisement of Bishops' tenants? Did not that
go directly to increase the influence of the church ? Gen-
tlemen, he trusted, would remember that the Rev. and
Right Rev. Persons to whom those lands belonged took
especial care to have the leases renewed as often as they
possibly could, and to procure the highest prices that the
tenants could be induced to pay ; for this reason the te-
nants were independent of their landlords; therefore, to
give them the elective franchise was to impart it to a large,
intelligent, wealthy, and independent body of men. He
really thought that, upon reflection, every holiest and in-
depsndent Member of that House must arrive at the con-
clusion that nothing could have been more unjust than to
have disfranchised the Irish forty-shilling freeholders in
the manner in which that great act of injustice was com-
mitted—that was, by fixing the qualification se high as
ten pounds. For his part be was content to divide the
lifference—he should be content if the highest qualifica-
tion were fixed at six pounds. With such anomalies, then,
as he had stated, it was idle to talk about continuing the
Union between this country and Ireland. lii Ireland, they
had 17, at least, if not 19, nomination boroughs. The
borough of Portarlington, for example, was brought openly
into the market, and it was announced that any gentleman
might be returned for it who would lend Lord Portar-
lington 40,0001. or 50,0001 , at legal interest, upon good
security; the person who lent the money, became the
Hon. Member for Portarlington. Did he urge the•e as
reasons against the principle of the Bill ? No ; he was
grateful for the abolitions it effected, or, if his gratitude
were not worth mentioning, he should say, in the name
of his constituents, that they were deeply grateful for those
abolitions. But, to return to the proposed changes in
the representation of Ireland—he thought the people of
that country had a right to complain that the 501. and
201. freeholders, being non-resident, were to be deprived
of their votes. He would select Dungarvon, merely as an
instance ; there, not only the Si. house renters were to be
disfranchised as well as the 501. and 201. freeholders.
Those instances, he conceived, ought to be enough to sa-
tisfy the House that the present Bill had been prepared
with insufficient knowledge of the state of representation
in the different counties and boroughs in -Ireland. Was
the House prepared to get rid of the old established sys-
tem of the Si. house-renters in the Irish boroughs? Ile
repeated that those remarks were not urged as any matter
of cavil, they were merely then put forward at such
length, and only with such degree of detail which that
stage of the measure called for ; but at a future time, he
should enter mote minutely into what he conceived to ba
matter of the very highest importance to the interests of
justice and the honour of Parliament ; and he hoped that
when he did so, the appeal which he intended to make
would not prove unavailing. The lion. and Learned
Member for Drogheda, anxious to defend the rotten bo-
roughs, adverted to an argument which was certainly un-
worthy of him, and from which he seemed to shrink, as
though he were conscious of its unworthiness ; that ar-
gument was founded upon the assumption that the present
Bill would go to increase the power of the Catholics, at
the expense of the Protestants. Was there never to be
an end of religious feuds and animosities ? Did any in-
telligent man in the country believe that any borough-
holder would, fur a moment stop to inquire whether the
money he received came from Catholic or Protestant
hands ? Would Sir E. Denny, for example, ask whether
the money he received came from him (Mr. O'Connell) or
from a Lord of the Treasury. Was every improvement
to be met by the same old cry of Catholic and Protestant ?
The one set against the other, and was it not enough to
have kept the Catholics for centuries from religious free-
dom, but now to make them pay for the toleration they
enjoyed, by the forfeiture of their civil rights ? It was
time at length to break down the long-continued monopoly
which had originated with Cromwell and his party, a
power which had been cemented by the blood of the fol-
lowers of Charles 1., men who afterwards were
betrayed by his son Charles 11. There was no one
who had not the slightest acquaintance with those sub-
jects who did not perfectly well know that every borough
in Ireland was one of the closest and most compact mo-
nopoly that could be imagined. Forty boroughs were
created by James the First in one day, for the purpose
of furthering his designs upon the property of two
entire provinces—those boroughs consisted each of only
twelve burgesses, and some of them were so poor and so
deficient of inhabitants, that they found difficulty in pro-
curing even that number; and what was one of the re•
suits ?—that in the Irish House of Commons an English-
man and a Welshman fought in the presence of the
Speaker, and it was not ended till the Welshman conquered,
and that was venerable antiquity.—(Cheers.) He then
came to an argument that was founded upon assertion, that
the close boroughs afforded an opportunity of introducing
clever men into that House. He had at one time intended
to make a catalogue raisonne of the clever men who came
into that House through the means of rotten boroughs, for
the purpose of seeing how far Members of that class had
proved beneficial or otherwise, to the public, interest. He
regretted to think that the Hon. Baronet (die Member
for Oxford) should have been the first to stand forward as
the opposer of the present measure—he regretted that the
cho'en representative of the clergy should have thought it
part of his duty to have so strenuously opposed the rights
of the people. It was not so in times past, and the Hon.
Baronet might remember that Langton, Archbishop of
Canterbury, was no efficient supporter of the right and
liberties of the people. Ile was sorry that the Hon. Ba-
ronet had not shown something of that Protestant spirit of
liberty, as it was called, by becoming the advocate of the
present Bill. They had, on the other side, talked of
the seizure of charters—yes, charters had been seized
by a King James, and by a Judge Jeffrey, and a re-
volution was the consequence ; but what was now
proposed was not a revolution in the State, bat a
renovation of the Constitution.—(Elear, hear, hear.)
They had heard in the course of the debate most eloquent
statements of the glories of the borough system, and of the
distinguished individuals which it introduced into that
House—they had a list which began with Mr. Gunning,
and ended—bless the mark !—with Lord Liverpool. To
his mind those names afforded anything but evidence of
the beneficial working of the borough system. In that
list was contained the name of Mr. Canning—a name that
called forth the loudest cheers—cheers in which, he con-
fessed, he did not sympathise, for though Mr. Canning
supported the proposition for Emancipation, yet to the last
he opposed the removal of the disabilities affecting the
Protestant Dissenters ; and surely the principle of a
Protestant who opposed the relief of his brother Protes-
tants, could be of small value to posterity. Then there
was the name of Mr. Burke—he was a high Tory—a man
who thought the people ought to be perfectly contented if
the rich and great were well and comfortably provided for.
, Mr. Burke got a pension, and he believed that pension was
paid to the present hour. He believed, if the people
could get rid of the pension, they would give a receipt in
full for the eulogium pronounced upon his name. That
. which might serve as an epitaph upon Berke, and which
, contained a good estimate of his character, was contained
in these lines :

Itight Honourable 13 trohet, the Member for Tam•
worth, called the eeiZure most atrocious, and the Ho-
nourable Member for York said that it was Most
iniquitous.—(Cheere.)—What did they say, then, to
the seizure of the Irish franchises ?—( Hear, hear.).---Let
them then either assist him in the support of the Bill be-
fore the House, or in carrying the repeal of the Union.—
(Great cheering.)—lf they did neith6a he for one could
never rely upon the sincerity of their professions, or upon
the soundness of their arguments in that House. For
England, then, he would repeat, he saw nothing in the
measure but good ; although the Hon. Member for Cel-
ligton said that his violet would he transferred to the
garden of the Duke of Bedford as soon as the borough
was thrown open. He would say nothing of the heads of
that noble houtee. They might ge on in succession like
flowers of the field, which bloom to-day and will disap-
pear to mot row. In speaking of the disfranchisement of
the borough of Retford, it had been said that measure
would be like the killing of a single wolf in a cage while
the rest of the flock was roaming in the forest.—(Laugh-
ter.)—But if they would now kill the rest of the flock,
God help the one or two which might he left in the cage
from the cheer of the Lord and the tally-ho of the fox-
hunter.—(Great laughter and cheers.)—The wens of the
Constitntion being once removed the smaller warts would
not long remain, if they should even escape the first
operation. As to Scotland, it requited no spectacles, no
second sight, to discover that the Bill gave to Scotland
great advantages. In Edinburgh, the thirty three
present electors were represented by three, and they
again by one, who, as the representative of 120,000
people, received more of the public money than
any other representative of 110,000 people that had
ever sat in that House. He would back the Honourable
Member for Edinburgh against any other representative
of the people for doing nothing but receiving money end
signing receipts.—(Laughter.)—The majority of the
voters of Scotland bad neither land nor income, and pos-
sessed their franchise solely by virtue of a piece of parch-
ment, which had not even the dignity of a seal, nor even
of a bit of wax.—(Laughter.)—Those Scotch voters had
only the advantage of a parchment vote.—(Hear, hear,
hear, from Sir Charles Wetherell, followed by great
laughter. )—Perhaps it would he thought a sufficient Re-
form for Scotland to raise the parchment voters to the
dignity of the wax.—(Laughter.)—The only gentleman
who had ventured to defend the parchment system was
the Noble Lord, the Member for Sutherland. Now it
appeared that all the voters in that city held under his
family, and of these twenty-four were only parchment
voters. With the wand, as it were, of a German wizard
—(Laughter)—the Noble Lord had called up the shade of
Fletcher of Saltoun, to testify against the improvement of
his country. But Fletcher must be very close indeed in
his grave if, when he heard that a free, representation
were about to be given to Scotland, he did not turn in
that grave.—(Laughter.)—Were the people of Scotland
so destitute of intelligence and discretion, that they are
not to he trusted with the free choice of their representa-
tives, but must have what the French called a garde feu
for their protection in the shape of the parch-
ment voters?--(Laughter.)—lt had been shown that
Scotland had grown up in prosperity since her connection
with free institutions, how much greater would be
her prosperity, had she possessed free institutions her-
self? Her increased prosperity furnished the strongest
arguments for the necessity of extending the freedom of
her institutions, and trampling down all that remained in
them of feudal despotism.—( Hear, hear.) He would only,
add one word respecting the measure proposed for Scot-
land, and that was, that he highly approved of the regula-
tions intended on the subject of the tenures- He also ex-
pressed his approbation of the conduct of the corporators
of Glasgow, who, tiring of the despotism with which they
were invested over their fellow-citizens, came forward
voluntarily to offer the snrrender of their corporate privi-
leges. In the first of the Noble Lord's propositions which
applied to Ireland, he was sorry to think that malign in-
fluence prevailed, which seemed to controul every thing
that related to Ireland. But he did not care for that.—
(Hear, hear, from a Member behind Mr. O'Connell, which
was followed by repeated cries of order ! from all parts of
the House.) " Well (sushi Mr. O'Connell) I am here ;
the gentleman may say hear, hear ! if he pleases.—
(Cheers. )" lie felt no ungenerous jealousy towards Scotland.
(Cheers ) He regretted that it was not intended to ex-
tend the advantages of the measure liberally to Ireland ;
at a time when her distresses, like the malaria approach.
ing Rome, was gradually ascending upwards from the
lowest clesses of the people.---(Hear, hear.) Of the bene-
volence which he invariably observed in that House on
every subject on which feelings of liberality or charity
were appealed to, he saw no manifestation towards Ire-
lend.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he had seen an
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) take credit to himself for ge-
nerosity towards the present Government, in supporting
them in a measure of harshness and tyranny in that coun-
try ; and he had seen the Ministers, in their turn, com-
plimenting the Right Hon. Baronet for having been al-
ways ready to assist in the oppression of Irelend. But
what had the Right Hon. Baronet done ? To what did
his generosity amount? Indeed, that he defended a mea-
sure which he had originated himself—that he gave the
Government his protection for an act of which he was
the author—of which he shared the reproach.—(Hear.)
They had a proverb in Ireland, which, though very ap-
plicable to the conduct of the Hon. Baronet on that occa-
sion, was not fit for " ears polite," being suggested by
those animals which were seen reciprocally allaying the
cutaneous irritation of each other.—(Great laughter.) By
the measure of the Noble Lord, the capital of England
would have double the number of its representatives, get-
ting sixteen instead of eight. The capital of Scotland
was to he proportionally benefitted. But no such boon
was intended for the capital of Ireland. Of the number
of English boroughs to which an increased representation
was given, there were fifteen of less population than the
county of Antrim; there were nineteen of less population
than the county of Down ; there were twenty-two less
than Tipperary; and there was not one, with the exception
of Lancashire and Yorkshire, which was not of less popu-
lation than the county of Cork. It might be said with
respect to Cork, that there were a considerable num-
ber of boroughs in that county ; to that he replied that
even if Cork gave up all its boroughs, it would still have a
population of at the least 100,000 souls greater than any
of the English counties to which lie had referred. Was
not that a state of things into which the House was called
on to look ? He respectfully demanded, then, another
Member for Antrim, another for Down, another for Cork,
another for Galway, another for Kerry, another for Mayo,
and another for Tyrone, for he could show them that every
one of them was above the line of 200,000. He was en-
titled, he felt, to make this call when he remembered fleet
they had 62 Members, as it were, in Bank. He might
be told that Limerick and Waterford were to have addi-
tional Members—they had already Members in that
House, and their interests were well attended to—and it
was fitting that they should be—but in the name of the
town of Galway he respectfully demanded another Mem-
ber. On behalf of Kilkenny and its vicinage, which, be-
fore the Union, returned four Members—he demanded
another Member. In making these statements and obser-
vations with respect to Ireland, was he to be understood
as arguing against the Bill ? quite die contrary. He was
endeavouring to give it all the support in his power; but
he was, at the same time, making an appeal to the common
sense, the justice of the Members of that House, and
labouring to make an appeal on behalf of what was due to
Ireland. It had often been said that he possessed in Ire-
land what had been called an irregular power. Did lion.
Members wish to see him deprived of that, then let them
agree to the present Bill, and let them superadd to it an
act of justice with reference to the representation of Ire-
land. Again he begged to repeat, that he was not arguing
against the Bill, that he was not labouring to make a
bargait. in the matter of representation ; no, he was sin-
cerely anxious to promote its adoption by every possible
means within his reach. lie should now, with the per-
mission of the House, make a few observations upon the
disfranchisement of the Irish 40s. freeholders. In the
county of Antrim, with a population of 260,000, that
Bill disfranchised, at one blow, 6,2-16 Protestant free•
holders ; those were a bo ly of electors not only not guilty,
but not accused, At the time of passing the Catholic
Relief Bill, which was the time when the 40s. freeholders
were disfranchised, it was said that it would be invidious
to disfraochise the Catholics and leave the Protestants un-
touched. He should meet that sort of reasoning by a single
remark, that at the time when that Bill was under the
consideration of the House, there were in this metropolis
eighty Catholio gentlemen of Ireland. They might,
he submitted, be considered as fair a representation of
the Irish Catholic nobility, gentry, and clergy, as
any that could be assembled. They immediately
and unanimously agreed to address the Legislature by
one petition against the Bill, and by another, say-
ing that the Catholics had been accused of having
abused their franchise, of being under the influence of
their priests, and that they were, therefore, to be dis-
franchised. The petitioners said, " be it so ;" but, said the
Petitioners, there is no complaint against the Protestant
freeholders ; and let not them be disfranchised ; that was
signed by those whom he was justified in calling the re.
presentatives of the Catholic Clergy, the Catholic No-
bility, Catholic Gentry, by Catholic Lawyers, and by every
Irish Catholic who came to this country upon that occa-
sion. By that Disfranchisement Bill Galway lost 32,000
freeholders, Dublin 10,000, Kerry 8,766, Tyrone 6,600

!jlere lies our good FAlraund, whose genius was such,
e scarcely can blame it or praise it too much ;
Who, born for the Universe, narrowed his mind,
And to party gave up what was meant for mankind."
He had heard much of the talent and the learning, and the
high principle and the public services of the men who sat
for boroughs ; but were there no dull, stupid, drowsy,
venal representatives of boroughs—men who, without ta-
lent to join in the debate, were never wanting in the per-
severance of waiting for the division ? The men of talent
were spoken of as if the rotten and close boroughs never
sent any other into that House. It was like presenting
the play of liandet, not leaving out the character of
Hamlet, but by omitting all the others, Polonius, the
Grave-digger, and all. It was showing up the stars,
and concealing all that was mean, pitiful, and obscure.--
But then they were told that the system worked well.—
Let them only inquire of their agricultural population—let
them look in their prisons—let them look to the opera-
tion of their game laws—let them peruse their wilful tres-
pass acts.—(Cheers.) Oh ! but that House was imma-
culate ; and yet that immaculate House approved of the
Walcheren expedition, and approved of it chiefly by means
of the votes of the borough Members. In 1822 the votes
against retrenchment gave a return of nineteen votes out

of twenty by Me nbers representing places not containing
an average population of •500 persons. The repressPra-
tives of towns having a population from 500 to I,oooj
voted in the proportion of twelve for retrenchment, an
thirty-three against it. Those upwards of 1,000 ano
cot amounting to 5,000 inhabitants, the Meinh,
rot, d seventeen for and forty-three against retreneu•
meet ; and the Members for towns where the P°P?;
lation exceeded 5,000, the numbers were si%tY::l,t
Memliers for retrenclamant and only forty-seven agal-h
it. Then that- House, in praise of which so rna'd
had been said, though it never voted that two and
two made five, yet arrived at the notable cone'!l%
that a pound note and a shilling were worth a gu,,ln„eye
at the very time when every Member in that Hu;
knew that -he could not get a guinea at less than 50%
added to a 1/. note. Still they were told that the
worked well—did it work well in the production--OAi;
had been 3-ateal, of a debt of 800,000,000/, hut' anus
would contend, of 1,000,000,0001. No, the `l)te
prospers, not in consequence of the system, but in de Pits
of it ; it was the natural advantages of the counrrYr to
ports, soil, mines, and climate, which raised Engi,gt f
its present pitch of greatness. Still it had its ae`",b't
1,000,000,0001., and if the despot of the Russia, th°t?, 4
proper to tear the Poles to atoms, to abolish their Yat":te
religious institutions, and to substitute his own--to cretor
the vilest inquisition that ever afflicted an enslaved cat!,
—to institute every species of persecution that rhe,tr,
verted ingenuity of man could devise—dare Eagla°":'.
terfere ? No; her 1,000,000,000/. precludes the Ire'
bility of it now, and in time to come. The English ossa
not stir an inch ; yet her soldiers were as fearleot 001,
her officers as gallant as ever ; but the 1,000,0007°
eis
of debt brought on by the working of the borough 0.41,0,
presented an insuperable barrier. The owners of 11,4 till
roughs, and those who profitted by the debt, would the
in good set terms contend for the beneficial workini;alo
borough system ; like the lilies of the field, " they °icor
j not, neither did they spin, but Solomon in . all ht 3 goy
was not arrayed like one- of those." But, say what 'oil
might, they never could get rid of the debt, and theiroei
resource fur enabling them to bear it was, by cfigrt.
really and honestly represented people to their 0114)%1
Once aga,n, when they talke I of the excellent workleir
the Constitution, he would whisper a single word in 'rev
ear—" Ireland !"—that country, of whose prop Pt, in
vial starvation was the lot. He would call on rhelb,'ed
the name of that God of charity who had so often wat-,Le
the bosoms of Englishmen to secure to that country ~d
blessings of good Government, and give to theroselveso,
to Scotland tl.e only security against revolution.'"(
the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was loudly cheered at
cook
conclusion of his speech, and frequently during the c°l'

. .-
of it) or'
Mr. ATTWOOD congratulated the House on the, ri
diality which seemed to subsist between the
bad
Bench and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman v""" e
just sat down, as likely to lead to peace and confidelijefe
the country from which that gentleman came. gel
was now in this country an agitation going forwar„t Ito
,
similar to that which prevailed in the sister island, rte
sincere ly hoped that Hou e wool I rot be a rayed 11,01,1
clamour of a multitude. lie could not see how it ei.oo
be contended that the people would relax on the que°,ol
of Reform. They were in love with the principle, ‘4,
they would still go on with it ; and it could only'berellf
ported that they would be content with this roses
those who heal the reins of Government, on the sir
of the discontent of the people.—(Cheers.) The lateoct.
vernment had gone out of office on a question of fieo 0
and he, therefore, could not see how that showed tb thd
reformed Parliament was demanded by those whelltltt
voted against them. If this first were concede'oll
people would proceed to still further change, they, seta' the
demand additional change, and again would be raj' bi'
same cl +moor and excitement, the consequence of :otrli
would be, that the remaining bulwarks of the State 'oetli
disappear. Before they proposed to destroy the Pbr sito
system, they ought to x %mine fe Irk ssly into 'sr rgclig
character was, and the means that they had of g°l;tbe
against the consequences. He therefore begged to °ate
attention of the House to the different state of the I's the
sentation now to what it was then. It was said Ott •,,tOO
present representation did not conform with the dise-,
of society in this country—that new towns bad WT 1700
into wealth, which it would not be just to exela_eAite
Parliament, and that those who possessed the herr: 0301
power of influencing the return of Members to barite
had encroached on the rights and liberties of the r-o°
by which means a full representation of the tradijpg
commercial interests of the country was preveatewa tho
did not pretend to belong to the class that posseso° 410
hereditary power of which he had just been speakill'lll
in interest, feeling, and sympathy, he was oitjott°,,
people. As such, he could say that he thought the '
on which this measure rested was not well foundielisir
did not appear to him that the commercial and traudidd
terests of the country were unequally represented o°
tsl
present system. He requested Members not tcipei
that for granted without examining the question• col
had been told by the Lord Advocate, that the middle t
t
had increased b tth in number and isrelligenne; refy",,e
~
not the higher classes also increased? And, t"eas thee'f
why did not the Corperation interests stand noW stf
did formerly. In his opinion, the commercial inter; 01°'
the country were nitre actually represented now' threes'
would be under the Bill of the Noble Lord-4'loo'p
and to hope that that measure would be the fi'uthe, tx
ment of the question was to hope what could 0000,4
would be impossible to believe that vested rights j 0,131`,
left alone, when those privileges were extinguisbeltioiote,
had been so long enjoyed. He was sure that o° of °e,
was prepared to maintain that not the privileg°3ioed
borough were to be retained as long as there reolo,
more populous town unrvesented. Yet once Iv
Bill, and such would be the results.—(Hear.) 10 ther;
Advocate had said, that they ought not to pto ;DO'
selves with the Plantagenets and the Stuarts, hot re.„o ge,,
the vast mass of knowledge and talent that had lit
%total;
lated within the last five and twenty years. ge„ooe tt
surprised that the Learned Lord had fixed -`OOO
v
period, for that was about the length of rime ,b9,toeio
E linburgh Review had existed. They were toldci twit t
large towns were to send two Members each, a° I. stlt
would satisfy the demands of the people. iSleraf t°,
that be enough. The greatest clamour that 'l.-„oct;
place had been in Newark, Stamford, and snehi rsteSajd
those. And were they extinguished No ; nestotied
extinguishing them, the same principle was to l'ed the':A?
to 34 other towns.—(Cheers.) But whence haniarrt,od
representation of the commerce of the country
t
Liverpool sent two Members, but many of ber t to
who had sat in that House had never sat for JP, 09
but for boroughs. Manchester, under this chat?,gt,":l•lo,rit
have two representative's ; but at what time hogerTiiltt
not that place really had at least three times tW°,l' ? Y. 01,1
who protected its interests and spoke its elerna°l;oo:,ejto(
Members were to be added to the metropolis• ireotO tt
they be merchants ? What merchant, had 11%et 10 Ott
or Southwark ever returned? And with resre, forito
City of London itself, though he had every resPieeteid/
Members who sat for it, yet it could not be (ci
they were not really the men who represente,loo,
coerce. Who were these men ? The two
bers for Callington—the Member for Bramber---r,
ter
her for Alidhurst—the Member for Weirdo° a Of tl'e
Members for Old Sarum. Those were the i°,o 0, fie
House who represented the commercial intereoottreoa
ti°o
metropolis.—(Hear, hear.) What they were. trooi
was, to give up a practical representation, and ~.jl3 "11 04
the country a nominal one—the very thiog
pretended that they were trying to avoid. Tim: 01,e °OlOO
men wished to sit in that House was, for ti ate ;
tinctiun ; and did any one suppose that with
merchants of Manchester would be content 70.166 tot ert
Members that that place was to have? N° vet',
they had always sat in that House to a loue ,eatie°,o"
tent, and this Bill would be the means of Pr° Jo° tot'
in future. They were to be shut out by the ve,rir-,Y.
it was pretended would open the way to th,e,-be 1Y90.0
the Bill was on principle, how came it tb''' 'ace') ,';
same footing, when, if the fair
of Tavistock and Manchester were to be Psvere.,tio
Manchester ought to return twenty Mernher'.; that otr"Dit
two.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had sr„ °tn. 'tlie
monstrous that the miserable occupiers co ;por, rd
that was Not a correct statement of the et'o-tifeae .04 ''ro,
owners, and not the occupiers of thoed't that
turned the Members—(Hear, hear)---a° weatteo riot
descended to them with their property, a' joy thud' ,a
testing that property itself. He would 10, or 13erty Ire
boroughs were as inviolable as their proper,rY aor pot
that
it was a fair question, whether, as diet
003
so great a risk, such a representaticnige theuorilf
quired to secure it against that risk ?
001 0.1006 i.
the Noble Lord, in the history of his
_oartl_a pr
ancestors, might have learned that I,4"ty a!' it. ,A 0
posed to all sorts of risks, and that cont'atch
gacy were ever ready to make a sople they re
him it appeared that the Right Il°°°v what red !he
opposite and the Noble Lord hardly knet I.oeot. ~ote
about to do. They were destroying the clas,etio
presentation—a representation in whiell:o realist o,as, foot
people were found, and they were about 'flot,tiesv ticis
P AI
of Commons a strictly popular aseemblY'bot bet 60
t haps, according to seine new view' .__Eliers,‘°the°
where, except in the minds of some re Ttbat ja
a theory of our o tatitution• lie knew
Proportion( r

threeof formers the Constitution was supposed to consist
tve, , co-equal and independent bodies, each of which
°t ii;checit on the other—each of which was a controul
Pee -°,thers and that no measure of the Legislature could
Wittout the concurrence of all three. No measure
1104ellheeonee a law, whether it was for good or for evil ;
4arsure was binding on the people which had not the
thil'oneurrence of these three independent bodies. ln
care "Y Were the efforts of the reformers directed to
41,1°M0 the Constitution. But he defied any man to
(.411t a Constitution less capable of being carried into ex-
allti4l4) and, if carried into execution, less capable of.p!-o-
eaa haeneral welfare ; but the answer to the supposition
et,' it never was even attempted to be carried so into
elite), ex`i el to a theory. The
tote
1,, 0 (List by some men bigoted
etre ° had actually carried our Constitution into effect
I^ 144 t men bigoted to a theory. They were
fe'r-lito were convinced that the people were nut made
madtier '''Y of Government, hut that Government was
aeped,eur. the 9eople • and, according as their interests de-
eme-e it, anti
according to circumstances, the Statesmen
kit:" part of the Constitution yield to another ; one
heistich PP!), the deficiencies of another ; one part ( ]
othat
se ice ryas necessary to the happineos of the others, and
kopiPt them all moving together in harmony, giving the
see
of fixed and
the Protection for their liberty ; and fur their property
dirge
stable laws.—(Cheers.) Here-
of y Power had a natural tendency to fall into the hands
a little capable of using it efficaciously ; men gene-
t:
: etf fvshle talents,
anti whose energies were lulled to
I,,°"eda,c they hed nothing to seek. The House of
according to the theory of the Noble Lord's
e'erti,-urt's
was to consist of an elected body, always change
e".taving no attachment to stability—composed, of ne-
t ro ;), of rnen the most ambitious—of men the most en-
men of the greatest talents and intelligence
14' 'Quttd in the age and in the country ; and that was,
tl,l"te4',Y, t 0 be the result of the new elections, and this
",5 he a pure House of Commons. He should be
ea4,l `,.° know from the Noble Lord, if this would not
f1e,111.1 Pure democracy ? He should be glad. to learn
eothle Noble Lord who had introduced the 8111, w lere
oan find a single example in history—a single in-
Pattcietehaviog the guarantee of experience, of any body,
dtriVit:teluocratie, elected by the great body of the people,
410144 g its existence from the popular
to ." glad to learn where such a body voice he
itshad existedagoaection with hereditary Monarchy and the ve
l'aeh There were no such examples, except such as
direct t them a serious lesson.—(Cheers.)—Let. them
ugh 4ri
t,,their eyes to the new Constitutions formed the
bouts °-ng kingdoms—let them look to the Chamber of
tf
"' Prarice,an(lthey would find that the Chamber
to b eer, never rejected a measure which had been agreed
t ire aChamber of Deputies, when the latter body did
,44'Ndiately question the utility of the other Chandser.
Lords-a:P.—Did the House of Commons and the. House. oft
differ the dispute went off quietly ; but it was no
14(!,',41e'e- In France the result of the Chamber of
toce'rir. 'eiecting a measure was that the other Chamber ins-
ttistia)teY inquired if the Chamber of Peers ought to
'll le's--(Cheers•)—lf such was the result in France,
we not find similar. dangers here? These appeared
pttt ar,, at !east, the kind of dangers which we 'nigh ex-
liewrimi this untried Bill, which had no experience to
da"but which we, were warned against by the
}he nets
in another country. They blinded their eyes to
le-tt!attonal operation, which experience had shown to
tepee: result result of such 'a
species of Government, and such
the., les of law in a neighbouring country ; and blinding
hid' 'Yes to that, they had no experience whatever to
41t e them.--(Cheers.) It appeared to him that the
lestailtet, Miportant as it was, had not been adequately
etl o,heet ,nu the speeches of the Hon. and Right Hon.
ko„-ea "posite. The Noble Lord indeed said that he
they-"' to taerifice the rotten boroughs, anti admitted that
Pr:D„,Were vested rights, but he said that they were not
Pt' tY but a trust, and because they were a trust and not
litt—ertY, lie meant to give no compensation fur them. He
step--(It know where the Noble Lord drew his wisdom
1 he talked of sacrificing any kind of property or anya°Yki" trust. ;
What, he wished to ask, toes property o
4 t but a trust •), All property was of the nature of
%at, and for that. reason he would not sacrifice Old
'l4l(tGa"son that ground he would protect all property—
'fib that ground the Noble Lord, in sacrificing the
ttrie,n boroughs, might find that he was not giving
NV to Woburn.—(Cheers.) The only ground why
of the should be protected was? that it was for the good
Pei" community and on the same ground he was pre-
l'otm,-,,t°,,defend all the Ousts it was proposed to destroyth.
th '",ose truets destroyed, was for bins a ground of
e He regretted very much retted ve much that Ministers
til'et.old h
tittles oave brought forward a measure of that kind in
agitetion, when there was a sort of Na-
e.hol olavention sittin throughout the land ; when the
table country was agitated ; and when it was not impro-
t'l • that by stetting the example of confiscating trusts,
)Uti 11:00ight lead to a- confiscation of property.—(Cheers.)
'd content himself with calling the measure re o-
oaf,d dangerous. It was not a measure of re-
has or what it was about to create never existed ;
fo"t a measure of conservation ; it was not a
altbe r repairing the structure; it was a measure tear in
411tiv. f"oadations of the Constitution, and laying them
GRAHAM was aware of the difficulty of
g the House after five nights' debate, and he
Illnil'.ltitanta eut..then have risen had he not been led to believe
ass tan, tmination was about to take place without any
should not have thought it necessary to
" the
'k arguMents of the Right Hon. Gentleman ope
1°11;644 the Right Hon. Gentleman not alluded per-
hit'', and had he not felt unwilling to allow a
d ~that great magnitude and importance to be
ja','ee,the °' Without stating his opinion..
.In the first
1;4 th must state, that the present Ministry had not
110 e "roseleeimplied by the Right
4 . tar s open to the charge
Pti06,41. the 44et (.11' Robert Peel) of cowering to taunts
rhea" f:?position side of the House. They had never
'4'44114,i:14i the responsibility of bringing forward the
en-
at A I".er On that or any preceding day. He mightp
41qita kivate opinion for advocating that partial ai-
folt,lt atrlYkßef°l.?k, adopted by the House of Commons,
,but Per In the cases of Penrhyn and East Ret-
ell d conceiving that- Reform inadequate, and that
)I.4l(feetidoet" 4 ,searehing substantial Reform, he, for one,
ehraegr..e_t tlse Course. .th.at was then finally pursued.
of a disposition to avoid void responsibility,
pf ft,had.
no_wig o
u! grace from the ght lion. Baronet,
the d the ground taken up by the Duke
iglitb uo, the head of the Adininistration of which
liOn
or ego, • Haronet formed a part. Duke of
the contended that it was not the universal wish
eta people
that eel` Lo effect Reform, and that to suppose. so
:114t our Or error. The Noble Duke also laid it down
trikt presenter'
system of representation was so perfect
th'atllit of inan could not conceive anthing more so,
Pe:are) keit ',mild not fancy anything more excellent.—
Ple that he Right Hon. B ironet bad departed from this]
titeet'ote:„," had relinquished this high ground anti state(
"glit • -"""ore of Reform in the representation, not
4
the responsibility of Ministers, but on that
ate Nles.'ner Pers?o--(11,•ar)—on the. responsibility. of
are{ether in his individual capacity—that, to such a
Would give a reluctant consent. The Right
tot,i4d sue-i'' must regret, he thought, that lie brought
oot del 4 eharge_(llear, bear)—when he htinshc
't Hon den
that there was a necessity for Reform, t.
~reaee bet Gentleman admitting that there was no dif-
Itte
e,aoly d.ween them as to principle but as to degree.
th, h 4,1 I,eusBion could be, whether the step the Mini-
ort, ta,ken was too great ; and as it was admitted
ttoteokrto was necessary, ry, this step could. only be
thepa
thextensive. So far from shrinking from re
Nkr,Nur ,„„re was no responsibility connected with
;tja, hiceethla'rilch, he, as an individual had.. not incurred.
'sty, e
IL, incurred the responsibility of not delay-
ad' at; e one dav, or one hour longer than neves-
°et', step ire
though it unfair not to bring the measure
geration with the least possible delay.—(Hear,
ti4htteeelfatt far as lie was concerned, he could say both
41.1c1i0, his colleagues, that they had not lost a
tor4tlo.ebringing forward, the measure. He. was
114. their
ti et that they conceived it was not consistent
k;eeDeth duty
the
trie'rehie Bleats, or What
public to bring forward any miser-
Mr. Burke emphatically called
miser-
,' ea
~exPediente--half measures ; neither had they
Vt4"itrl"4'ect course for averting the honest and just
°I
the People's demand for Reform.. It was
l'tte '"ent with
the pledges they had given on
rtes °trice, that they should nicely balance
th, the 4 °f redeem'
Vet ing the pledges they had madet
Oht, itrely „ ,Or that they should devise ,he
ON did t,'llol legally to redeem those pledges. f for delay Y think that any justification could be
teatthooliehad beforer them' the example
tits see IPation—they saw the benefit of early
tiv a, is
t,ha:laying to concede such claim when r.e-
-I'44' 'I4 t" ti'tirnat Ir power, only led to more extensive
kl Itti4 in, e y to the necessity of making conces-
td jute
.nerent in the nature of things that the re-
t"re claims te (I I
tho c (ken eG. to granting claims that at first
%I."'elit it jn".(l of. On that ground the Ministers
Otik' to ~ ,neir duty—first, to introduce a measure ;
dot h take
r cale that it should be such a measure as
a~itp deiliegaerimit,ion of their pledge, and would satisfy
bletly tor Reform ; and, thirdly, it was their
tielega4 Measure before the House with the least
The Government and the country, be be-

lieved, were of opinion, that the measure Was calculated
to satisfy all moderate men.—(Cheers and loud laughter.)
There were, he knew, Ulfra Tories and Ultra Reformers
who would not be satisfied ; but he was convinced that
moderate men of all parties would be satisfied with it.—
(Hear, and laughter.)—The measure would, he believed,
remove all just ground of complaint and removing
all just ground of complaint, was the principal
reason why it was proposed by an Administration deter-
mined to stand by the Monarchy and support the Govern-
ment, being convinced that the best means of reasoning
was to satisfy the people. The measure was not the
offspring of innovation, nor did he deem it inconsistent
with the institutions of the country. He had something
to regret in the asperity with which the Right lion.
Gentleman had alluded to tome circumstances in his poli-
tical conduct. The Right Hon. Gentleman had referred
to the resolution he had moved last Session, to have
a return of the emoluments of the Privy Council laid before
the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that return
was one cause of the great dissatisfaction.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile was, not disposed to shrink from the responsibility of
that motion. His conduct on that occasion was before the
House and the country. He charged the Administration
with repeatedly making great public professions of eco-
nomy and retrenchment—(Cheers from the Opposition)
—and he now had charged them with carrying those pro•
fessions only into execution in the lower grade of the pub-
lic service., while they left the higher offices untouched :
and he wished to have some returns to show the outline of
the manner in which th -v carried retrenchment into effect.
His motion was, then, to obtain documents ta show the
salaries of offices held by the members of the Privy Coun-
cil, in order to make it appear that one of the Members
of his Majesty's Cabinet held five great offices, and several
of them held more than one, His motion was met by an
amendment, by the Right lion. Member for Armagh, for
a return of all salaries above one thousand pounds, and
those extraordinary returns were accordingly laid on the
table which had astonished the country. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had made an allusion to his salary as First
Lord of the Admiralty : he should not have been asto-
nished at that remark, if it had come from the Hon. Ba-
ronet, lately a Lord of the Admiralty ; but it was unwor-
thy of the Right [ion. Gentleman. The Right Hon.
Gentleman was one of the Members of that Committee to
which the salaries of the officers of Government had
referred, and it was competent for the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to propose to reduce the salary of the First Lord of
the Admiralty—(" No, no !" from the Opposition, " Hear,
hear !" front the Ministerial side)—and if the Right
Hon. Gentleman gave that advice, and the Committee
adopted it, he could only assure the House that the Mi-
nisters would not defend the salary so pertinaciously as the
Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends defended the super-
annuation of the sons of two Cabinet Ministers.—(Hear.)
He turned then willingly from such topics as these, which
lie wished it might be understood were not of his seeking ;
but as they heel been adverted to, he could not overlook
them. He might have taken no notice of them coming
from any body else but the Right Hon. Gentleman, but
felt himself called on to reply to them coming from him,
and looked upon them as intended to stigmatize him for his
conduct. He would then come to the arguments of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, who strongly reprehended the
measure, because it severed the lower classes of the country
from the franchise which they haul exercised, much to the
advantage of the country. lie would venture to oppose
to the as.ertion of the Right lion. Gentleman the broad
principle laid down by a gentleman whom he (Sir James
Graham) considered as the highest authority on constitu-
tional law. Mr. Fox laid down that that was the best
system of representation which secured to a country the
I irgest number of persons whose circumstances were in-
dependent ; and that system, on the contrary, was the
worst which embraced the largest number of von rs,
who, from being in independent circumstances, were in-
capable of deliberation. lie would not refer to what had
been said by the Right Hon. Baronet, in the debate in
1829, relative to the forty-shilling freeholders; but
he would refer to opinions given by the Right Hon.
Baronet in 1525, in the case of Penryn. The Right
lion. Baronet then laid down a doctrine, to which be gave
his cordial assent. Sir James Graham then quoted a
short passage from the speedo of Sir Robert Peel on that
occasion, in which the latter Right Hon. Baronet said, this
franchise was not a property, but a public trust given for
the benefit of the people ; and it might be withheld or
withdrawn, if there was any violation of the trust.—
(Cheers from the Opposition side.) He understood the
distinction drawn between the present case and that of
the violation of a trust ; but if there were such a violation
in the case of Penryn, there was more in the case of the
forty-shilling freeholders. There was no disposition ever
to refer to any former misconduct on their part. One
Hon. Gentleman, indeed, said that it had been given in
evidence before a Committee of that House, that they had
been driven up to the hustings like oxen, and did not
know for whom they were to vote. But between 1828
and 1829 an election had taken place which proved that
the fortyashilling freeholders had emancipated themselves
from this thraldom, and were capable of exercising a deli-
berate judgment. The Right lion. Gentleman, in the
able speech he made on the occasion of disfranchising the
forty-shilling freeholders, quoted a passage from Nathaniel
Bacon, in which lie cordialty agreed. Bacon was speaks
ing of the effect of that Statute of Henry VI., by which
the right of election, that before was vested in the whole
commonalty, was restricted to the possessors of freeholds
of forty shillings cable. Bacon said, as quoted by the
Right Hon. Baronet—" Thus the manner of election is re-
tained, but the electors are more considerable ; for hitherto
any min of English blood promiscuously had a right to
give or receive a vote, although his residence was over
the wide world. Thus the freemen yielded up their
liberty of election to the fteeholders, possibly not know-
ing what they did. This change was no less good than
great. For, first, those times were no times for any
great measure of civility. The preface of the statute
shows that the meanest held himself as good a man
as the greateet iii this country, and this tended to parties,
tumults, and bloodshed. Secondly, where the multitude
prevail, the meaner sort are upon the upper hand, and
these (generally ignorant) cannot judge of persons nor
times; but being for the most part led by faction or-affec-
tion, rather than by right understanding, made their elec-
tions, and thereby the General Council of the nation less
generous and noble. Thirdly, there is no leas equity in
the change than policy. For what can lie more reason-
able than that those men should have their votes in elec-
tion of the Public Council, whose estates are chargeable
with the public taxes and assessments ? But, above all the
rest, this advancing of the freeholders in this manner of
election was beneficial to the freemen of England, although,
perchance, they considered not thereof; and this will
more clearly appear by the consideration of these three
particulars. First, it abated the power of the Lords and
great men, who held the inferior sort at their discretion,
and much of what they had by their vote. Second, it
rendered the body of the people wore brave for advancing
of the freeholder above the freemen, raised . the spirit of
the meaner sorts to public regard, and with an ambition
to aspire to become freeholder. And thus the mealier
sort, sifted to the very bran, become less considerable and
more subject to the coercive power, when the freeholder, ,
now advanced in some degree, becomes more careful to
maintain correspondence with the laws ; and thirdly, by
this means the law makes a separation of the inferior
clergy and cloistered people within this service, wherein
they might serve particular ends much and Rome more."
In this opinion he agreed, conceiving that to restrict the
franchise on this principle was to make the people more
free. Applying himself to the question of the charters,
he was supported by the authority of Mr. Burke, when he
declared an opinion, that charters were procured for
a particular purpose, and to uphold the due exe-
cution of that purpose the Government was
warranted in preserving them ; but when they
ceased to fulfil those purposes for which they were
intended, then their privileges were forfeited, and it was
in the power of the Government to take back the power
which it gave.—(Hear.) The question which they had
to consider, with reference to the charters and to the
other parts of the measure, was not whether they had the
power to make these changes, but whether it was expe-
dient to do so; and he confessed, after the fullest conside-
ration, lie was satisfied that the time was come when the
wishes of the people, with respect to these, could not
longer be resisted. He now proceeded to the other branch
of the subject—the nature and extent of the power exer-
cised by the Peers and man of property in the return of
Members to that House, and the insignificance of the
places through which these returns were generally made.
In a question of that kind, touching so nearly the compo-
sition of the House, it would not, perhaps, be very agree-
able to the Members if he alluded too closely to the rotten
boroughs which exercised such an undue influence; and
it might, perhaps, be sufficient to state, that he found
there were, under the present system, twenty-eight places
returning fifty-six Members to that House, although the
population of those places did not in any case amount to
one thousand pesrons ; and forty-eight boroughs returning
ninety-seven Members, although their population was not
in any instance above one hundred persons.—(Hear.)
One hundred and fifteen boroughs returned Members to
that House at the present moment, although the number
of -titers in no instance were above two hundred.—(Hear,
hear.) From the arguments of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the Member for Boroughbridge, and some other
Members, it would seem to be their opinion) that every

rich Peer was almost entitled, as a matter of right, to have
a representative in that House. This might be very con.
genial to their feelings, but it was not very agreeable to
the people, nor did it suit well with their conceptions of a
House of Commons respecting the people. Now, what
was really the case, with reference to those boroughs? He
found that 1•1-) Peers and Commoners return 173 Mem-
bers as their own nomination ; and that sixteen Peers re-
turn seventy-six Members to that House—being about, on
an average, five Members for each Peer.—(Hear.) This
was a state of things which, he contended, must be altered
and these were the' evils to which the Reform was to be
applied. The lion. Member for Callington (Baring,)
in his other objections to the plan, had intimated his fear,
that merchants and bankers, and gentlemen connected
with trade, would not possess, under the new aye-
tern, those facilities for entering Parliament which they
had at present. Now what was the case at this moment?
He found that the Members for Tewkesbury and for Maid-
stone, one of the Members for Liverpool, fur Worcester, '
and Chichester, and Newcastle, and Col k, and the two
Members for Bristol—all these, and many others he could
name, were populous places, open to the influence of the
commercial interest, and to men in whom they reposed
confidence purely on account of their high character and
reputation for knowledge and integrity, and altogether in-
dependent of any influence of rank or overwhelming pro-
perty.—(Hear.) The question, in truth, between the
Government and their opponents, at the present moment,
wan, whether the Members of th'it House should continue
to be the representatives of constituents—the people—or
whether they were to continue to be, as at present, the
representatives merely of their own property, of the pa
tron who grants them the nomination? Members re-
turned in that manner could not truly repre-ent the :inte-
rests of the people.—( Hear, hear, and yes.) He repeated
they could not. They might, and probably did, do their
duty to a certain extent, from a sense of private honour,
but they had no immediate and pressing sense of duty,
such as that which must be felt by those who were re-
sponsible for their conduct to a large and respectable body
of constituents.—(Hear, hear.) They might, be re-
peated, be influenced in their conduct. by a high sense of
honour, but he feared very much that they frequently
carried that sense of honour much higher to their pa-
trons than to the people. The Hon. Member for Ald-
borough (Mr. Croker) had commented on the expres-
sion of his Noble Friend (Lord Tavistock) when he
said that the Duke of Bedford would never again use his
interest to influence the returns for the borough of Tavi-
stock. Now, his Noble Friend did not say that the Duke
of Bedford would net exercise his legitimate influence with
his tenantry, but that he would never again be able to con-
trend the representation in the same manner as he did
now, when there were only 27 voters. The g' misfor-
tune of the present borough system was, that it mattered
little whether property was possessed by a good or a bad
man—by the best or the worst of landlords ; the influence
in returning Members for the borough where property pre-
vailed was just the same in either case ; but by the re-
formed system, character would begin to he necessary,
residence would be necessary, and men of property, de-
nuded of that undue power which they possessed at pre-
sent, would he compelled to rely more on the exercise of
those qualities which would entitle them to the favour of
the people.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Callington
(Baring) had commented much on the nature of the line
to he drawn by the Noble Lord (Russell) for the disfran-
chisement of the borough, and he had asked who drew that
line. He (Sir J. Graham) had no hesitation in saying at
once, that his Majesty's Ministers drew the line ; anti he
would say further, that if they could, in such a matter, be
obnoxious to the suspicions insinuated with respect to the
disfranchisement of a peculiar class of boroughs, that Mi-
nisters were not only unit to hold their stations, but even
unfit, as men of honour, to bold a station in the society of
gentlemen. With respect to the objections which hail
been taken to the making population the basis of represen-
tation, they bad the authority of Mr. Pitt for such a
course, both at the time when he made his proposition
with respect to Reform in 1785, and subsequently,
when he carried into effect the Union with Ire-
land. In introducing his measure of Reform in 1785,
Mr. Pitt is reported to have used the following expres-
sions :—" Gentlemen had undoubtedly read, that of the
boroughs which used formerly to send Members to Parlia-
ment, seventy-two haul been disfranchised, that was to
say, that the Crown had ceased to summon them at
general elections to return burgesses to the House of Com-
mons. After the restoration thirty-six of these boroughs
petitioned Parliament to be restored to the exercise of
their ancient franchise; their prayer was granted, and to
this hour they enjoy it ; but the other thirty-six not
having presented any petition on the subject, had not re-
ceived their lost franchise. Upon this he would be bold
to say that, considering the restoration of the former, and
the continued deprivation of the latter, the spirit of
the Constitution had been grossly violated, if it was true
(but which he denied) that the extension to one set of
boroughs of the franchise, and the resumption of it from
others, was a violation of the Constitution. For if the
numbers could not originally have been constitutionally
increased, so they could not constitutionally have been di-
minished. But having been once diminished, to restore
them might by some be said to make an innovation ; and
if the Parliament had any authority to restore the fran-
chise, the principle of restoration ought to have been ex-
tended to the seventy-two boroughs, and not confined to
one-half of them. Here, thin, it appeared manifest
that the whole was governed by a principle which mi-
litated directly against the modern doctrine, that to
do what had been constantly done for ages, by the
wisest of our ancestors, was to innovate upon the
Constitution. In these early periods, such was the
nature of representation, that as one borough de-
cayed and another rose, the one was abolished, and the
other invested with the right. The alterations were not
made by principle ; they did not arise from any fixed rule
laid down, and invariably pursued ; but they were founded
in that notion which gave the discretion try power to the
Crown, viz. that the principal places, and not the decayed
boroughs, should be called upon to exercise the right of
election." These were the opinions of Mr. Pitt ; and all
the regulations with respect to the distribution of the
parishes in Ireland were regulated on the principle, that
population and importance were to confer the right of re-
turning Members. Passing now to the question of the
propriety of the rule adopted with respect to population,
he admitted at once that the census of 1821 was defec-
tive ; but it was the best that they possessed, and even its
errors were favourable to the extension of the franchise._...
It was contended, however, that Caine, Tavistock, and
Knaresborough, should have been disfranchised ; but if
they had determined to abandon the line that they drew
with respect to 2,000 inhabitants, they must have dis-
franchised a vast number of independent boroughs, against
some of which no complaint could be made. If they had
disfranchised Caine, eleven of the boroughs must also have
been sacrificed because their population was inferior to that
burgh. These were Mahon, Harwich, Newport (in the
Isle of Wight), Andover, Grantham, Devizes, Hert-
ford, St. Albans, Bridgenorth, Pomfret, and Dart-
mouth. If they had disfranchised Knaresborough, they
must also have sacrificed Ripon, Horsham, Chichester,e
Peterborough,
ttien:etreuatidp,ts.nnse,
eltircr,:iorribp:at
ouotai
ifeendr ndtoel
Shrewsbury,i:suit
itwhage,oo,enhl
yoddtk,
byr.:_aTe—Kafiwhvitn(heei
taoHbosr
nrneei
ibesefiolsi
—(Hear,
xteboirreni:of:,
aaiel(u,
Knaresborough
igihegheet
al
itdue,gtirsorilw.v.dstlct.
nwn,sf
at:::nv,‘s-dadrautiTi eererestanthileridle'
el
ilekt:eapisi Tewkesbury-,
baiit iresutpmae(da:dunr,:sßi
eiat
hf:rtaatoh
aat!crlyney)d.r:,
they
standard.
had Theydone hsaud takenwth thethe
InTl;.y.:otwoeiroe, oabtliidg ehde
muo
dni atdte
csr
df oarbnyAd the
fofierrxoriueogdgb (Croker) had a spokennge
minimum of loss and difficulty in effecting the change.--
The
coTht.
itt,ehe
eHaetofftnee.ent
pounds,
Member
ttohetis,,t!ntdaxarrdetoofrif,rsanto-
nhe,titieoo,whhaodlere6foerrbeorougths.esteo rbeturr,f
prove that the calculations of the
dGotoverinment were.
ac Teseadr:
whilehe r there
oTrteheo nt10yw10,4071.1
shohuesffieseirdateidi nt.ettreeensettp,itsoe
thatN and
pounds
dni
fl oietufrodueo/
Ipisuruti(on of between sthat h
that
House,
Sheffieldther eh
an:le roe
~
e,
houses
shouses
trh:tatte dyne;
value
e
Hear.)— ten pounds;
than 4, f e
Ow
with
rao upgo
thei
four thousand, the houses rated at ten pounds
iswere 6,323
while in the parish of Marylebone, which
swnhatiollleerlomfrotlujeghsG,
repre-
sented, he found 10,421 houses rented above that sum..—
m.—
(Hear, hear, bear)—being nearly one-third more than
a
the 47 berughs.—( Hear, hear, hear. )__The non
Member for Bi:roughbridge had charged the Government
with endeavouring to carry the question by agitation •
but he believed the original cause of that agitation was to
be found, not in the Government, but by the refusal
to Birmingham of the representati, n which. she claimed
from the justice of that House. He was bound •
to say,
that he conceded Reform, not on account of any excite-
ment which was abroad, but at the same time he could
not overlook the considerations of safety which must pre-
sent themselves to every rational mind ; nor could he for-
get that needlessly protracted resistance always ends in
such cases in humiliatingconcession. He did not, there-
fore, overlook the agitation of the public mind, but he
was not overborne by it; and he was willing to giveßeform
frankly and freely, because he was convinced of its justice
as much as of its necessity.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was said
that the cry for Reform was the old story, and that if not

attended to, it would exhaust itself. But what said the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) on that sub.
jest, when the same objection was urged with respect to
the C.tholic Relief Bill ? He declared that it was be-
cause it was the old story, and because it had been so fre-
quently urged on their attention, but he thought they ought
to erant Emancipation, and set the question at rest for ever.
( Hear.) The Hon. Msmber for Ca lington said, however,
that it they waited a little while and made few concessions
they might go on for some time longer; but was it not
better, he would ask, to change at once, and safely, that
which all admitted should he changed, and which they also
admitted could not much longer he preserved.—(Hear.)
He well remembered, during the late war, to have seen a
British frigate undergoing a process which was common in
the navy. Her keel was damaged, and it was thought ex-
pedient to examine it. No dry dock being at hand, it was
found necessary to heave her down. Her sails were un-
bent, her streamers were lowered, I er thunder was silenced,
Ler masts were struck, and she lay a vast hulk on the
water—no inauspicious enaldem, he hoped, of what Bri-
tain would be, stripped of her glories. By the aid of me-
chanical power, a cable attached to a lever Waq brought
to bear upon her, and she lay balancing on the water,
nearly on her beam ends. Her experienced Commander
did nut disdain lo superintend the operation. Desirous to
biing her somewhat nearer the surface, and thinking he
might safely order another turn of the capstan, he gave the
word—when the vessel heeled, filled, and for ever disap-
peared.—(Dear, hear.) Now let the House understand
his application. The Hon. Member for Aldborough had
said, that when the waters subsided, the public vessel
would right herself. He (Sir J. Graham) apprehended
that when the waters of bitterness and strife had risen to
a certain height, when the tide of discontent was full, a
slight wave, raised by a passing gust, might, at a moment
when it was least ;expected, overwhelm and swamp the
vessel of state.—( Hear, hear.) Adverting to the threat
thrown cut last night by a Noble Marquis, that unless Go-
vernment adopt the course which was conformable to the
Noble Marquis's opinion, he would take the eneans which
the forms of Parliament allowed him of stopping the
supplies, and disbanding the army ; he (Sir James
Graham) expressed his conviction that the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite would not concur with the Noble
Marquis in that line of conduct. The Right Honourable
Gentleman, in speaking of the condition of Ireland, had
admitted that in his opinion civil war would be a less evil
than the repeal of the Union ; but he had aided some-
thing as '- darkly shadowed forth," which he (Sir J.
Graham) did not entirely comprehend. It had been said
that, to accede to the proposed measure, would be to en-
danger the Constitution. He owned that he could not
so read the history of his country as to coincide in that
opinion. He could not think that the Constitution would
he endangered by acceding to the wishes of a loyal people.
The stability of the throne, the stability of the institu-
tions of the country, could not, in his opinion, be en-
dangered by any such concession. The Hon. Baronet
here alluded to the declaration of Charles the Second, on
ascending the throne of his ancestors, after his long and
bitter exclusion ; in which he stated the, during that ex-
clusion, the first consideration by which he had regu-
lated his actions was, his conception of what the opinions
of Parliament would be respecting them. Lord Claren-
don had advised ihat Prince to keep on gond terms with
his Parliament, and not to attend to the whimsical fancies
of foreign countries.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
What was meant by that was, the conduct of foreign
despots, who attempted to put down the opinions of the
great bulk of the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—When
the public opinion was strongly expressed, there were
but two ways of dealing with it—by concession, or by
force. In all cases, where it was practicable, the former
was to be preferred, and more especild y when, in the
words of Clarendon, in his advice to Charles the Second,
" the true interests of the nation were co-equal with the
greatness and happiness of the Monarch." With respect
to Parliamentary Reform, he (Sir James Graham) al-
lowed that he by no means believed it to be a panacea for
all the evils under which the country laboured. But when
the valuable p art of the people had a Parliament mainly
chosen by themselves, and felt a confidence that all would
be done for their interests which it was possible to do
for them, they would, even under the same circumstances,
be much more patient and peaceable than at present. On
these grounds he warmly supported his Noble Friend's Bill.

Sir PEEL sues sure the House would not be sur-
prised at. the anxiety he felt, after what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, to explain. He knew
he had no right to say a single word in reply, for he had
been heard with great indulgence and at great length on a
former evening, and he had also contributed his share to
the debate of last night. The Right Hon. Baronet had
accused hint of personal asperity. He trusted he was not
generally optat to such a charge; but the question in these
matters was, who was the first to introduce criminatery
expressions. The Right Hon. Baronet had accused biro
of being enamoured of potwallopers. Now he never said
that he was enamoured of potwalloppers, and if the opinion
lay between 101. freeholders anti potwalloppers, he might
(pi
je:thraaps prefer
nehiseinentthe of
tlhOelp.
otv,,us; but
ateLppei he
sandtitibjesecc,t,et-dait,o thed-1
,)t
voters, because that would destroy the existing links be-
tween the lower and the higher ranks. The Right Hon.
Baronet bad alluded to him as being inclined to obstruct
the Government, but he could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that it would be impossible for him to take any
part in any attempt ;to obstruct the Government. He
considered himself to have as much right to act on his own
conviction of what would be the result of the rejection of
the present measure as the Hon. Gentlemen opposite did
when they opposed the proposition of the Noble Lord
(Blandford) last year, and now showed no disposition to
accede to the wishes of the petitioners to that House, with
regard to the ballot.
Mr. T. LEFROY said it might be inferred from the
language of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham),
who had stated that one of the reasons for bringing the
prasert measure before the House was to redeem a pledge
which he and his colleagues had made to their Sovereign
that the gracious and constitutional Monarch of England
had been metamorphosed into a citizen King, and had re-
quired a pledge from his Ministry to propose a searching
measure of Reform. But he (Mr. Lefroy) believed, from
statements made in another place, that his Majesty had
nothing to do with the origin of the measure, which had
emanated solely from the Ministers. Irk, however, gave
them the credit of having no wish to subvert the Consti-
tution. He would not now discuss the question whether
the elective franchise ought to be considered purely as a
public trust ; but if it were so considered, the power of
that House to deal with the franchise was also a public
trust which should be most cautiously exercised. Was
the proposed measure agreeable to the Constitution? If
not, it should be regarded with the utmost jealousy by the
House. Now he called the attention of Hon. Gentlemen
to that part of the measure which weut to the disfran-
chisement of the boroughs. By the Constitution that
House was composed of knights, burgesses, and citizens ;
and he contended that it was not according to the prin-
ciples of the Constitution to disturb that balance. Be--
sides, if the balance in that House were destroyed, the
next step would he to destroy the balance of the whole
Legislature; and thus the proposed innovation would lead
to the annihilation of the House of Lords. We under-
stood the Hon. Gentleman to sty that if corruption existed
there were already existing legal means to remove it,
without having recourse to the proposed measure, and die-
curbing the whole system of the Constitution.—(The
Hon. Gentleman continued to address the House for some
time, but a hoarseness with which he was afflicted, and
the noise in the House, which induced the Speaker several
times to attempt to obtain silence, prevented us from
hearing any more of his observations.)
Sir J. YORKE said he owed it in gratitude to the
House, for permitting him to address them after having
been occupied for six nights in discussing the important
measure before them, to he as brief as possible in stating
a few objections to it. He felt that it required no small
nerve to rise after the Hon. and Learned Member for
Waterford, who said he represented 7,000,000 of stout
able-bodied Irishmen—(A laugh)—and the first Lord of
the Adiniralty, whom he might consider his commander-
to-chief. He had always possessed a certain portion of
modest assurance, but under existing circumstances he cer-
tainly felt considerable difficulty in addressing the Com-
mons of England. He could not admit that the House
ought not to be considered the representatives of the people
of England, when no longer ago than at the settlement of
King William, in the preamble to the Bill of Rights, they
were declared to be the full and free representatives of the
people of England.—(Hear.) After having had a seat in
the House for forty years; he should not like to part with
it, he could not consent to commit Parliamentary suicide,
by cutting his Parliamentary throat.—(A laugh.) Mini-
sters had undertaken to guide the helm of the state in
times of considerable difficulty, and up to the present
period he had been inclined to give them his support.
They had acted with zeal and ability, and he was satisfied
that they had the good of the country at heart. The
measure before the House, however, was of such a na-
ture as prevented him from giving it his support. It was
htßreui g‘evilottsu'e,
lidnevshneoincttha
say
ai.(vl;els' 1 aorfe dt
h tehpe e oHpl eu,s eaonfdCi
singular that a Whig Administration framed the Bill of
o
t ,oLost oan swtrcii
ibge
At I,;e
.
ministration which now proposed to re-model the House—
to revolutionize it. That there were
defects in the present state of the representation he was
not prepared to deny. He thought it highly unlit that

five or six Peers, who had representatives in the House of
Comtnom, should, by combining together, have it in their
power to exercise an undue influence over the Government
—( Hear, hear)—but he could never consent to disfran-
chise 60 boroughs, because they did not happen to fall
within the Noble Pavniasteris line of march.—(A laugh )
The Hon. Member 'for Wareham 11.1,1 stated the other
night, that if he had had only nice months' warning, Le
would hive undertaken to supp!y the deficiency of popu-
lation in his borough.—(A laugh) lie believed that the
borough which he represented would not come within the
line of March, and though he did not possess the same
Malthi:sian power as the Hon. Member for Wareham—
(A laugh)--though ho wt as not gifted in the same extra-
drdillarY Wily, yet he ;and his worthy colleague would have
done their best to enable their constituents to send re pre
sentatires to Parliament.._( Great laughter.) It was an
awkward thing that some doub•s were entertained as to
tic impartiality of the pi esente measure. He did not wish
to accuse Ministers of partiality, but it had got abroad
that there was a little leaning towards the t,,orough of
Tavistock. lie hoped that it was not so, l,ut •tach an
opinion was entertained. The Hon. Memb a- fur Pr ston
had, on a former evening, taken offence at some observa-
tion which he had made, and applied to them the designs-
tion of bilge water. 11, (Sir J. Yorke) had latoly ob-
served that technical naval language was often resorted to.
It was introduced into the very hest and genteelcst so-
ciety. P rhaps this was owing to our having a naval
King. In Parliamentary tactics it was now ,trite common
to talk of throwing a Member's arguments overboard.—
Nothing could be more completely allied to Davy Jones's
Locker than that. Adopting the same phraseology,
lie might be allowed to say of the ship launched by the
Nob'e Lord opposite (Lord John Russell), that it was a
clumsy-built vessel, with such amazing large bows in
front, and such a clumsy run aft, that the first time ehe
should put to sea, she would run bump ashore.—(Hear,
and a laugh.) The First Lord of the A.dmiralty had il-
lustrated his argument by some nautical allusions. His
linguage might be bilge-water, but it did not stink in the
nostrils. The Right Hon. Baronet, ho sever, ha 1 not
been very successful, for he not only upset his vessel, but
nearly capsized his argument.—(Hear, and laughter.)
lie supposed that in consequence of tie Right lion. Ba-
ronet presiding at a Nava! Board, and having none hut
naval men about him, he thought that he might launch
his little barque, freighted with his cargo of nautical know-
ledge. He be.Teel the Right lion. Baronet to r, mem-
ber, that the vessel might be upset by a single pull of the
fall more than was necessary. About half a century ago
the Royal George, at Spithead, went down from this
cause. He trusted that the good ship William the
Fourth would not upset in the same manner.—(Bear.)
lie concluded by stating, that he would vote against the
measure.

Mr. BE mut, said that the Honourable Member
for Burouglibridge had called upon those Members who
had numerous constituents to come forward boldly
and express their opinions with respect to the mea-
sure under consideration, and said that unless they should
do so, they would be unworthy of the confidence which
their constituents placed in them. He assented fully to
that proposition, but he was called upon to address the
[louse by a still more powerful motive—namely, the great
number of petitions which had been sent to the House
from his constituents. It had been said, that the cry for
Reform which had been raised by the people upon the pre-
sent occasion bad been produced by recent events which
had occurred upon the Continent. He appealed to his
Noble Colleague (Lord Morpeth) whether the desire for
Reform had not been expressed in Yorkshire before those
events had occurred. The demand for Reform had been
produced by the conduct of that House. When the House
refused to transfer the franchise of East Retford to Bir-
mingham, they destroyed all the hopes and confidence
which the country had up to that moment reposed in them.
Could it be wondered at that a strong feeling in favour of
Reform should exist in a county like Yorkshire, which
was teeming with population, with wealth, and intellect ?
In the course of the present discussion reference had fre-
quently been made to the period of the Revolution ; but
he would ask, did the present wealth and population of the
country exist at the period of the Revolution? Did the
present degree of knowledge exist? Was there the same
intense attention paid to every public debate ? Were the
means of communication so generally established ? In all
those particulars no parallel would hold between the period
of the Revolution and the present time. At the period
of the Revolution the great body of the people and the
gentry were opposed to the arrangements which were then
made. At the present moment the feeling which exist, d in
favour of Reform was not confined to the lower classes,
but pervaded all the middle classes, which was the best
and most intelligent portion of the community. In
his opinion the House bad lost the confidence of the coun-
try, and however pure the motives of its members might
be—however they might be prepared to give up their time
and their labour to the service of the country,—yet lie
thought it right to state, th it they were not looked to
with that degree of confidence which would alone enahl •
them to do their duty. Bat though he was prepared to
go a great way in remedying this evil, still he wished that
that great measure now before the House had been pro-
duced with more caution.—(Lead cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) He could not but know, that in dealing with a
question in which euch vast interests were involved, they
ought to proceed with great caution, and he could not hut
see and feel deeply, that however ill the system worked in
regard to the public welfare, still, when a great and untried
change w is about to he introduced, like that now before
the House, it might be followed by consequences which
the most clear•sighted men could not foresee.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) He admitted that there might he
instances too great and too palpalfe of that influence which
was exercised by certain persons in that House ; and
when that influence was placed in the hands of individuals
who were vast proprietors, it might, in a nicely-poised
question, turn the scale, and even bias the Government :
and he was prepared to use the pruning-knife, but not the
axe.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He did not sup-
pose that noble families would not find their way into that
House, by force of rank and character; nor was be afraid
that persons in the humble ranks of life, who were
endowed with great abilities, would not be able, by
their own buoyancy, to find their proper places : but
he wished to learn whether the measure could, in its
present shape, be carried into effect, without affecting a
body of gentlemen of talent and knowledge,—persons
connected with the manufacturing and mercantile
interests, who could now readily find their way into the
House. But how were such men, who might be well
known in a metropolis, to make their character known in
a borough ? There were able men, too, who shrunk
from publicity.—(Hear.) He was not yet convinced that
even the Government itself—he meant the means required
for the conduct of it—might not be maternally diminished
if this measure were carried into execution to the extent
which was proposed.—(Hear, hear.) The House must
be prepared to legislate not merely for the sunshine but
for the storm and the tempest—( Hear)—and great and
wise measures might be introduced, for which the country
might be highly indebted to the Minister who brought it
forward, yet that Minister might not dare to present him-
self as a candidate for a proper place, even a University
which he had adorned in his youth and honoured in his
manhood ; and the King's Government might be left with-
out an important officer in that House.—(Hear, hear.)
These were serious objections in his mini to the measure.
He admitted and would join in any plan to break down
and diminish, that influence which was so odious and so
noxious to the public welfare. He was not one of those
who held that the resumption of trusts granted for the
public benefit, if they no longer produced that benefit,
although the trustee might nut be corrupt, seas unjust;
he held that the public had a right to resume them, and
that no act of robbery was committed. Under these
circumstances, he was prepared to vote for every stage of
the Bill till it came to the committee. There such mo-
difications might be introduced as might remove his ob-
jections ; but he despaired of their being removed to that
degree that would justify him in giving it his support. In
such a case he should meet his constituents with the assu-
, ranee of having performed his duty.—(Hear.)
debate alr.
oPnßtAhiEs D said,
questi that
on,li after te r six n
should
not
hi ofave ris e
n t protractedfo 1.
rtleincosoiunlsesidne, of
consideration that although men of long standing in
the H
thiskn u
o tsvnb
jcechat withoutractera any degreendinteg of mistrust
or y, mightsres-
at
or misinterpretation, a young man like himself, without
those advantages, could not safely pursue such a course.
This was a question of which the peace, not only of Eng-
land, but of Europe, might depend.—(Hear.) There
was one consideration which appeared to hint very impor-
tant, in which this question differed from any other, which
was, that whatever error in principle might be contained
in this measure would be perpetuated, and the Legislature
would be precluded from after revision.—(Hear.) He
would first look to the Constitution we had, before he
would consider the new Constitution that was to be given
to us. He believed there never was a deliberate body
better entitled to the gratitude of the country over whose
destinies they were called upon to preside, than that
House.—(Hear, hear.) Probably no man of ordi-
nary habits had not been, at one time of his life, a Par-
liamentary reformer: but these were only the habits
of youth ; the reflection of manhood led us to contrast the
theoretical defects with the result of the system. In Psr-
-
liamentary Reform, it was acknowledged by the other side
to be difficult to thew how a large portion of talent, rank,l

etel upul use, could gain admittance intee:4at House.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Caine had spoken of
lucky accidents, and had said that if we took 100 of the
tallest men, some might prove men of talent. He (Mr.
Praed) would say, that if this system had gone on for a
Juste series of years, and the same effects bad regularly and
uniformaily arisen, he should be disposed to remain as we
were. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that even
under a despotic Government a people might be well go-
verned ; if so, he should say, he would not change his
despotic Government for the Hon. Member's Constitutional
Goveniment.—(Hear, hear, on both sides.)—His (Mr.
Preen's) objections to this measure were so many and so
strong, that he despaired of their removal in a Committee.
—(Hear.)--His first objection was to the general plan of
di, Bill, which included a number of monstrous anomalies.
Whilst it was said that Members were to be returned by
population, and that votes were to be governed by pro-
perty, it was clew that there would be many instances of
capital tow'n's in a county. containing houses the inhabitants
of which were rated at the proper rate, but the
population of which might be infinitely inferior to that
of a town where the houses were worse and the voters
consequently fewer. This anomaly would create great
discontent. It was an anomaly by which the basis of
representation was narrowed. With respect to char-
tered rights:, a great and paramount necessity was the
only ground for tearing off the seal of a charter ; but
none had hen shown. It had been said that the measure
would admit of all interests being represented in the Ilouse
of Commons; but where should we find representatives
in the West India and the East India interests ? The
Learned Judge Advocate's argument last night on this
point was an argument in favour of virtual representation,
theugh lie contended for an actual representation. The
representatives for liuckinghem and Dumfries were to re-
present those places, and not any other interests. It was
atiil that those who opposed this measure objected to all
Reform, hut Ile (Mr. Prised) objected only to a Reform
that went entirely to remodel that House—(Hear)—and
lie epurelteneion respecting such a change was !smell
greater than that of the Hon, the First Lord of the Ad-
atitalte, lie had said there was no danger to be appre-
s eel for a series of years a growing desire to pull down
headed to the House of Peers ; but lie (Mr. Prate!) had
that respect for the nouee of Peers in which it ought to
be held in the country'. He knew that the sovereign
of this country had once ;seen endowed with a veto. lie
knew tweet had become of this.' reto,—that it had become
obtenlete. He looked wits: seriosts apprehension to this
',Lee :heir foot on the
h
Bill, and if it were passed by that Hoteee, they would carry
Reform
iold beyondof the
thHaetusledoeufser,
,aenids.
He
be asked to
what Reform he was friendly. He was friendly' to a gra-
dualter Reform of such grievances as should be proved to
exist.—(Hear.)—Cases of this kind often occurred—East
Retfted was one. A Noble Lord hail toid that there
would be one thing gained by this measure—that the pub-
lic would be no longer mocked by the lostlanno:ne hypocrisy
exhibited in the East Bettor,' case. - lie might live to
see the day when a Member in the place of the Noble
Lord, would say to the then House of Commons.,
one thing has been gained by this Bill—the public will no
more be mocked by the loathsome hypocrisy of the dis-
cussions of 1831. lie (Mr. Praed) raid that this was not
a final measure.—(Hear.) sweeping as the Bill was, suf-
ficiently so, as the Noble Lord said, to satisfy all moderate
inen,—it did not go far enough for some ; and a Bill
might be looked for which would go es far beyond the Bill
of the moderate men as the Bid of ti,e moderate men
went beyond the state of the Constitution that satisfied
high Tories.—(Hear.) It had been urged as an argu-
ment by the advocates of the present measure, that the
House slowly followed in the wake, instead of leading in the
Yin of public opinion. It was the case, and he rejoiced
that it was so; fur otherwise they would have been the
victims of all the evils of democracy. But the House
changed its policy when it was expedient that it should
du so—when the measures which called for the change
were sufficiently ripened in the estimation of the public ;
except perhaps in one instance with respect to a great
question, which he need not more distinctly specify. It
has been said also that if the House had few years ago
pawned a Bill for enfranchising Birmingham and the other
large unrepresented towns, there would be no excitement of
the popular mind now on the subject of Reform; but that
argument was fully refuted by the statement of the Right
lion. Membsr (Cruker) for Aldborough, that that endow-
ment of franchise had not constituted the prayer of the
few petitions presented to that House on the subject of
Reform for the last few years. Besides, if the argument
was good for anything, it led to this conclusion—that if
such a proposition now emanated from Ministers, it woulti
be assented to without a division, slowing that a moderate
Reform only would be in harmony with the feelings and
opinions of the large majority of that House, and not a
measure like the present, that went to pull down about
their ears the fabric of our time-honoured Constitution.
Then, with reference to the diminution of the numbers of
that House by 62 seats, which would be the result of the
Noble Lord's Bill, they had been told that the Howe was
inconveniently numerous, and that the public business
could be better managed by fewer Members. He denied
the assertion, and contended that whether they looked to
the magnitude and variety of the subjects discussed there
and in the committees above stairs, there was hardly a
sufficient number of representatives in that House.—
(Hear, hear.) He trusted that for these and several
other equally cogent reasons the Bill would be thoroughly
revised in all its provisions before it was next brought be-
fore the House. He should prefer, instead of the great
disfranchising clause, to see one introduced for restoring
the franchise to those towns which had lost their right
of returning representatives, or, if this propositions
should not meet favour in the eyes of Ministers, he
should prefer seeing the franchise extended to several
districts at present unrepresented, which he thought pos-
sessed at least equal claims to representation with those
towns on which it was intended to bestow the right of
returning a Member to that House. lie saw no reason
why the several interests of the empire sitould not be di-
rectly represented there,—why Jamaica, or the island of
Berhatloce, should not have their Hon. Members,—which
was not less objectionable than the present measure. Ile
should like to ask the Noble Representative of the Uni-
versity of Cambridge, what objection he could advance
against—by way of balancing the great democracy infu-
sion tendency of the Bill—doubling the number of the
Members for the two universities ? Such an arrange-
ment would, he conld assure him, be calculated to allay
the well-founded apprehensions of his ecclesiastical con-
stituents. It had been said that the Bill was but
a just concession of the demands of the people. whose
excitement it would thus abate. It was not, he main-
taiued, what the people asked for, judging by their
petitions. They prayed for, in some instances, uni-
versal suffrage; in others, for the vote by ballot ;
and in others for a reduction of the public burdens
quite incompatible with the public service—desiring the
difference to be made good from the revenues of the church ;
but in no instance did they pray for such a measure as the
present. They therefore would not be satisfied by it.
Neither would Mr. Bentham and his numerous disciples ;
nor would that large class, of whom the Hon. Member
for Freston might be considered the representative. All,
it was true, openly approved of it.—(licar.)—But why
did they ? Because they considered it the first step to-
wards further changes.—( Bear, and a laugh.)—The re-
forming public was told by its leaders, " Accept of this
for the present, that we may the more readily wrest more
by-and-by. Put this in your pocket as the first instal-
tnent of the debt so long due to us. The Bill of Minis..
ters will enable us to shake off the old man of the moun.
tains : all the rest in good time,"—(Bear. )—This was
the reason that the Bill was received with open arms
out of doors—(Loud cries of " Hear" from the
Ministerial benches)—and not that it went to satisfy
the democratic cravings of the public,—(From this
point of the Hon. Member's speech, to the conclusion,
lie was but occasionally audible in consequence of
the murmurs and impatience of the House.)—He
begged pardon of the House : he felt he was trespassing
on its indulgence, but he would be brief.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not mean to deny that some of the petitioners who
had approached that House on the subject of Reform were
respectable and intelligent individuals ; hut he would main-
tain, that, take them as a body, they were not thine per-
sons to whose opinions he would refer on a great legis-
lative measure. He should have preferred more of the
intelligence and wealth of the community its a guide of
their decisions. There was one other point on which he
begeged leave to offer a few observations—(" Oh, oh !"
" No, no !" " Hear !")—namely, the real cause of the pre-.
sent excitement on the subject of Reform. lie believed
that the distress under which the country I thiourea con-
tributed in a degree to this excitement, but he looked to
the reviving industry and employment of all chooses for
the remedy. It had been sale that the excitement
had been brought about by Ministers themselves, te favour
time progress of their Reform measure. Ile did not credit
this assertion,—he should
" as soon believe, with kird Sir finger,
That old Moll White took wing with cat and broomstick,
And raised the last night's thunder."
nen that, the Right lion. Gentlemen opposite had raised the
present excitement.—(" Oh," and laughter.) What, then,
was the cause of all this clamour about Reform ? The
cause, in his mind, had been whinny overlooked by ablel
those who had preceded him in the debate,
and
would
on tiefound, he believed, in the excitement consequent p
....eGreat laughter, and
carrying of the Catholic question.