The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 13, 1849.

The Hon. Gentleman must have conceived that there
was something remark My preposterous about the
motion—that it was that peculiar kind of mater which
oueht to be condemned before it was heard, or he never
would have indulged in a sneer. He had often heard
the Hon. Gentleman indulge in ex post /ado sneering,
but never tiil now had he venture d upon sneering in au-
ticipation, proving at once that ho was as bitter in the one
as the other. If there was an occasion calculated to stir
up the milk of human kindness in their breasts it was
that which had just passed, and it was something
strange that in the same breath that he spoke of Lady
Franklin's letter the Hon. Member indulged in a sneer
at the expense of a motion he had yet to hear.—(Hear.)
With the Hon. Baronet the Member for the University
he accepted the act of America and Russia as a proof
that we live in altered times, for at no former pe-
riod in the hiet ,ry of the world WAS there
an instance of a foreign Government sending out, to seek
se great expense, adventurers unconnected with their own
courtry.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he stood there on that
occasion as the humble representative of two distinct
classes, both of them of some importance in the
community. In the first place, he represented that
influential body of Christians who repud ate resorting
to war in any case, and in the second that clans of
Christians, consisting of a large portion of the middle
and working classes of this country, who
desired that they should take some precautions,
and if possible to obtain some guarantee
against the necessity for war.—(Hear.) Now it was not
necessary for any one in the House who acceded to the
motion that he sh: uld be of opinion that we are not
justified as Christians, under any circumstances, of
resorting to war in self-defence. It was only
stecessery that they should agree that war was a
great calamity which it was desirable it possible to avoid.
—(Hear, hear.). What was it that he proposed? He
assumed that every one in the House would only sanc-
tion war in cases where it was imperatively demanded.
His object was that they should simply and solely res ire
to that mode in communities which individuals resorted
to in private life. He only wanted them to carry
out in another instance that principle which they
recognized in a thousand other cases—viz , that the
intercourse of nations was nothing but the in-
tercourse of individuals in the, aggregate. He wanted
to know why any disagreement between this country
and France or America, which could not be settled by
mutual representation, - should not be referred to
the decision of an arbitrator. He did not
mean necessarily crowned heads or neutral
states, though he could mention many examples
where a reference to such forms had proved eminently
successful. There were cases in which disputes between
France and the United States had • been referred to
England, between England and the United States to
France, between the United States and Mexico to
Prussia, between the United States and England to the
Netherlands. And these had all been eminently
successful; or if one had failed in its immediate
object, there was no instance of such a re-
ference being followed by war.—(Hear, hear.) But
he did not confine himself to neutral powers, inasmuch
as one might chance to prefer a republic, and another
a monarchy. There were many instances in which
disputes had been referred .to -commissioners, and -that,
he confessed, was the plan which he wished to see
adopted. Men should be appointed by this country to
meet men appointed by other countries, for the purpose
of inquiring into the matter in dispute, and, in the event
of their not agreeing, to have the power of calling in an
arbitrator. He saw no essential difference between that
plan and the plan Which was now resorted to.in private
lite; his views
.were sometimes considered utopian and
visionary, but at other times so practical and material,
that it was said there was not a bit of sentiment about
him—(Great laughter)—but in the present instance
there could be no doubt about the practical
nature of his plan, for in 1794, in 1814, and again in
1818 the country had been a party to the appointment of
commissioners to settle differences with America. He
mentioned those cases to show that this plan was no in-
vention, but had been already c irried out with success,
and only wanted to be carried out a little further to
anticipate our quarries wide other countries.—(Hear.)
1V hat was the use of any treaty ? What wait the use of
the Foreign- office or the Secretary for Foreign Affairs?
They might as well shut up the one and cashier the
other.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He, therefore,
thought if any provision was made by which they
could avoid hostile collision with other coun-
tries, that provision would be as eagerly
sought atter by one party to the quarrel as by the
other. Wars arose out of accidental collisions, and trea-
ties were really as well observed by powerful states
against weak states, as by weak states against powerful.
Therefore, he saw no difficulty specially applying to
treaties of that kind greater than with any other
treaties.— (Hear, hear) But there would be an
advantage in having a treaty which bound another
country if that country did not afterwards fulfil its
treaty. That country would then enter into war with
the brand of infamy stamped upon its banners.—(Hoar,
hear.) He andeipated another objection. It was
said, were the great interests of England to be en-
trusted to Commissioners such as those he proposed?
That was upon the assumption that our quarrels in-
volved the whole existence of the empire, quarrels on
the most minute and ridiculous customs. A peace friend
of his, the other day, told him that he was standing re-
cently by a penny peep-show. of the battle of Waterloo,
when a little boy, who was peeping into it, asked the
old man who owned the show what was the cause of the
battle of Waterloo. The old man scratched his head
and said, upou his word, he could not tell.—(A laugh.)
So it appeared that we could not tell whet were the
causes of hal:' our wars.—(Oh, oh.) At all events
he might route the remark of the Noble Lord on
the Treasury Bench the other right, that the last two
wars were unnecessary—(Hear, hear) —and in that re-
mark ha (Mr. Cobden) agreed. But could com-
missioners be entrusted with settling disputes be-
tween nations ? Already they had entrusted those
matters to individuals. Treaties of peace made after
wars were generally entrusted to individuals to carry
them out. Lord Castlereagh, when he was called to
account in the House of Commons for the share he took
in the treaty of Vienna, distinctly told the House that
he took upen himself the respore ibility of what was done
at tkat Congress, and if the interests or the honour of
England were sacrificed he alone was responsible. And
in the case of Lord Ashburton, when he went to nego-
tiate the Maine boundary question, he had power to
bind this country to anything he set his hand to in
America. All he (Mr. Cobden) wanted was that
'those matters should be done before and not
after they entered into war, and that it should be to avert
war rather than make up differences after they had ex-
hausted themselves in conflicts.—(Hear, hear.) From
1836 down to the last year they had increased their
armed force 60,000 men, and they had increased their
expenditure 60 or 70 per cent. That was no proof
of any increased duration of peace, or that the Govern-
ment felt that was any security against war ; he
(Mr. Cobden) thought it argued quite the contrary.
What were their preparations tor war? They had 170
barrels of gunpowder in store. Besides that they had
75,000,000 of ball cartridges, made up ready fur
use, besides the powder in barrels. (Hear, hear,
and loud laughter.) Yes, but the people would not
laugh when they read what he was stating. The people
would not join county Members in their laugh.—(Hear,
hear.) Then they had 50,000 pieces of cannon in store,
.5,000,000 of gun cartridges, and 1,200,000 sand-bags
ready for fortifications. They had as much powder in
store as would have served for three years during the
war with France, or fifteen years in the time of peace,
to say nothing of the 75,000,000 of ball cartridges
Did it look, therefore, as if the Government had male
great way iu the preparations for peace ?—(Hear,
hear.) During the last four or five years they
had spent upon an average twice as much in forti-
fications, steam basins, docks, barracks, and in the
means of aggressive and defensive warfare, as in any pe-
riod since the peace. Indeed Mr, Hume had informed
him that the cost had been greater during these four or
five years than during any of the previous years. They
had doubled the ordnance expt roes since 1836. Then
there was as much invested in the steam navy of the Go-
vernment as they had in the whole of the merchant steamers

He repeated this fact now, and challenged any one to
contravene it. Ile stated so la,t year, when the state-
ment was treated with incredulity by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and Vie House, but he had gone into
the figures, and . it .was correct, and he coul6
prove it. And more money had been invested in
,repairing ships, and providing basins for them, than was
invested for the same purposes in mercantile docks.
What was the fact ? why, that, civilization instead of
b.-ing available for the requirements of peace, .was .con-
stantly made available tor the purposes of war, thus
making science contribute to the barbarism of the age in
which they lived. He challenged any one, by more
than mere declamation, to deny that this was so. Why,
theysspent more in one year now, during the time of peace,
than in seven years during the war. He was happy to
co-operate with the " Peace Contederation," though, in
that House, he did not take his stand on the high
ground it did; and he was ready to share in any
calumny or derision which might be cast upon them.
He had sat on Committees on the public estimates, but
he, and those who sat with him, were of opinion that
there was no logical end of their proceedings—they saw
no result unless they could approach foreign coun-
tries with, the hand of peace. Because increased
expenditure would lead to increased taxation, and
taxation, he believed, had reached its limits. It
might be said that his plan would not meet all cases;
but he thought it would, and a great deal bet-
ter than the plan now resorted to. He
thought, at all events, that the substitution of
arbitration was a more rational plan than a resort to the
sword. He took his stand upon past experience, and
he would prove that in four out of every five cases
which had occurred during the last twenty years
arbitration would better have disposed of them than
war. Take the case of 1837, when a dispute arose with
Russia relative to the confiscation of a ship, the Vixen,
in the Blaci: Sea. Every body knew that that ship was
sent out by particular parties for the purpose of
embroiling this country with Prussia, and he appealed to
the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, who was Fo-
reign Minister at the time, whether a treaty of arbitration
with Prussia would not have saved Vm from party at-
tacks, and prevented a good deal of unpleasantness and
apprehension in this country. Take the next case of
the American boundary question, which caused much
apprehension on both sides of the Atlantic; would it not
have been better to have referred this matter to an arbi-
tration of geographers than have allowed it to cause
so much excitement:. Then there was the case
of M•Leud, who was imprisoned in the state of New York
for having avowed that he took part in the burning of
the Caroline. Suppose that man had been executed, tho
consequence would have been that what was called the
honour of the country would have bad to be vindicated.
An HoN. MEMBER—Certainly.
Mr. COBDEN—Certainly said an Honourable
Member. One man would have lost his life,
and straightway they would have plunged into a
war which might have sacrificed tens Of thousands and

hundreds of thousands of lives, though it could not restore
the dead man. NOW how much better it would have been
had aruitration been resorted to in that case. True, it
could not have restored the life of the man, but
it could have insured some provision for his widow and
children. There was also aeother eve) which neatly in-
veigled them in a war with France, he meant the impri-
sonment of Mr. Pritchard by the French, in the island
of Otaheite. That gentleman acted in the double cape
city of Missionary and British Consul, and when the
news of his imprisonment reached this country, feelings
of the greatest animosity towards France were excited in
this country. So much was that the case, that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tionworth, who was
Prime Minister at the time, was oblige d to confess in
his place in that House that a gross insult had been
committed, and he put it to the Right lion. Baronet
whether, in 1844, wh,n the bad feeling caused by that
dispute was at its height, he would nut have telt happy
could he have been enabled to put in oporation a system
of arbitration for the settlemeut of that dispute such as
he proposed?—(Hear.) He might be told that none of
those disputes had led to war; but although they did not
lead to actual conflict, they had already cost the country
fifty millions sterling. He could, therefore, c inceive
no argument for the refusal of so simple an expedient
as he proposed. It was true the Hon. Member for
Stafford (Mr. Urquhart) had put on the paper an amend•
meat to his motion, but that amendment was founded on
a wrong idea of his motion. The Hon. Member had
conceived that he had found out some plan for putting
the whole world under a sort of court of peace officers;
but that was a mistake, and if Hon. Gentlemen had pro-
pared their speeches in opposition to his motion on that
understanding, they would be altogether mistaken.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Member for
Stafford seemed to be exceedingly happy in tucking
himself to the tail of some other Hon. Member, in order
to get a hearing in the House.—(Laeghter.) But he did
not at the same time think it right that his motion
should be confused and adulterated, by mixing it up
with the amendment the Hon. Member had proposed to
it.—(Hear.) He had no doubt that he would also be
told that the aspect of the present times, more especially
that of the country, was a reason against the adoption of
his proposition. But he thought the position of affairs
on the continent and elsewhere was a strong reason
why it should be adopted. The exhibition they had
there had of war certainly could not prejudice
them in its favour • and in one case, that of Den-
mark and Schleswig-Holstein, it had been attended with
the most disastrous consequences to the commerce of the
country. In no case could arbitration have been more
effectually used. Without it there would be no end to
the quarrel, for the one party was strong at sea, and the
other was strong ashore, so that they would never fight
it out. Were the Government by this non-intervention
punishing the people of Denmark or of Sicily ? No, but
they were entailing the greatest losses on the manufac-
turers of Manchester, and on the miners of Northumber-

land, and also the people of Gironne and of America,
were suffering much, which could be alleviated by arbi-
tration. Yet it should be understood that he did not
mean that arbitration should be adopted in the case of
the pirate of Borneo or with the savage native of Tim-
buetoo. but his object war that the Noble Lord the Secre-

tarp for the Foreign Department (Lord Palmerston)
should enter into such arrangements with the United
States of America, with France, and even with the weak-
est nations of Europe, such as Tuscany, Belgium, and
Holland, so as to prevent, by every possible means the
probability of warfare, as even the probability creattd
much expense and serious losses to this couutry, and
to the others to which he alluded. He did not at all

agree with those parties who were for the congress of
nations, but he thought that great civilized nations
would be all powerful, for they would be looked upon as
authorities in the case of any disputes, and that thus
peace; harmony, and concord, would be settled among
nations.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see anything Uto-
pian in his measure, nor did he see anything in the state
of European society to prevent this measure of arbitra-
tion from being brought to a safe, useful, and happy
conclusion. He did not mean to dwell on any topics
that may tend to th wart his motion, for such he believe d
would tend to mischief; but if others, who were opposed
to him, touched on them he would say it was better not
to go too far, for his plan did not tend to any other re-
sult than that of benefit to society at large. The worst
opposition that could be offered to him was that he did
not wish to go to war, and such was the wish and opi-
nion of 2,000 petitioners, such had been declared by
numerous meetings, by mayors and town councils, and
by the immense body of society. He then moved, "That
an humble address be presented to her Majosty, praying
she will be graciousiy pleased to direct her principal Se-
cretary of State for Foreign Affairs to enter into com-
munication with foreign powers, inviting them to concur
in treaties, binding the respective parties, in the event of
any future misunderstanding, which cannot be arranged
by amicable negotiation, to c efer the matter in dispute to
the decision of arbitrators."

Mr. E WART seconded the motion, and said that be
knew from the last message of the President of the
United States, that it was consistent with the power of
great nations, that arbitration should be adopted as much
*ix possible, and he believed that the good and great of all
nations would lend a helping hand to bring about this
great and imprtant measure of his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Cobden). He felt assured that all persons who were for
the abolition of the slave trade, and the abolition of
death, would support the motion; and that ere long
the wish for such a measure would prevail throughout
all Europe. He would therefore give it his most cordial
support.
Mr. B. COCURANE said, that whatever might be
the opinion of the House about that motion, there could
be but one feeling that it was brought on at a very inju-
dicious time. He remembered that the Hon. Gemtlenran
(Mr. Cobden) stated some time since, ti at there could
be no great revolution such as that which occurred in the

year 1789; when six days after that assertion France
broke out in all the violence of revolution; and when
such was the cane, he woutd ask the House, could any
more inappropriate titre be chosen for such a re-
solution than the present. He recollected that two
members of the Peace Society, Mr. Crisp and Mr.
Lloyd, stated after their visit to Paris, that there
existfd the most amicable feeling between France
and England, and that those feelings would be yet
more strongly cemented, but yet the Hon. Member
(Mr. Cobden) disowns that they represented the
opinions of the Peace Society. He did not mean to allow
him to shirk' from their doctrines and principles, though
he (Mr. Cobden) might disown them as friends. He
recollected that Mr. Elihu Burrit stated at a meeting
over which the Hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Hindle))
presided, that they went to Paris and had an interview
with Lamartine, and he (Mr. Burma) stated that the
Peace Society must compensate Lamartine by making
him President of the Universal Congress.—(Laughter.)
He SIW that the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was help-
ing out the views of the Hon. Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire, and that he had already acted as
a mediator in Sicily, in Russia, and at Rome.—(Cries
of " No, no.") Well, if he did not mediate at Rome,
Captain Kay, of the Bulldog, was there, and in several
other places, and was always on the alert to interpose, by
whose orders he did not know. On the whole he ob-
jected to the Noble Lord's policy to settle matters as he
bad attempted, for nothing could tend to bring EngLnd
to a war more than such intermeddling, for ne thought
that the greatest principle of this empire was sacrificed
for the sake of peace. He would press the policy of
Mr. Pitt, who stated that there were occasions when
the interests of this country should be supported, even
at the risk and expense of war. Look what the
President of France stated lately. "We hold the des-
tinies of Europe, for if France is tranquil Europe is
so; if not the whole continent must feel the result."
He did not think that the present was a time to
bring forward such a measure, and considered that there
was a great similarity between the Montaigne of France
and the Montaigne of England. Ho hoped that the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Cobden) would not only disown his
friends but his motion for the present.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said he did not think that the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. B. Cochrane) had responded to
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden). He was not ambitious
of martyrdom, but was pr,pared to share whatever odium
may be cast on him for this motion. He recollected, as
he passed through Belgium, having seen over the gates
of 'Tourney, " Li pacem velis pare helium," and in that
be coincided, for he wished, in concurrence with his
Hon. Friend, that this country should be always pre-
pared to meet hostilities.
Mr. MACKINNON considered that this motion was
likely to prove beneficial to all Europe, if carried, for
the state of war and all its evils were as rife in this
age of civilization as they had been eight hundred
years ago, in the middle of the dark ages. He hoped,
therefore. that so important a motion would not be
lost sight of, The alteration introduced into the mili-
tary arc, by the invention of gunpowder, had materially
benefited the human race, by rendering battled more
decisive and more speedily concluded, thereby lessen
ing very considerably the amount of bloodshed which
was formerly the great incident of a long war. So great
was the change thus occasioned, that a great war in mo-
dern times must be a war of necessity, whereas in former
times it was commonly a war of invasion or ambition;
and, therefore, as wars were at the present time far less
likely to occur, the motion of the Lion. Member for the
West Riding, considering it in no other light than as a
mere experiment, might be entertained and adopted with
no real apprehension of danger. The principal objection
to the plan of the Honourable Gentleman was one, cer-
tainly, of much weight, and he wished to draw the
attention of the Honourable Member particularly to it.
If a civil matter were in dispute between A and B, and
it were agreed to refer it to arbitration, and ultimately
to an umpire, in case of the arbitrators disagreeing, they
would be bound by a rule of Court to submit to the
decision of the arbitrators or umpire, and the Court
would have power to enforce the award. But in a
national dispute with another country, referred to a
similar process of decision, the stronger nation might
endeavour to enforce its views by violence, notwith-
standing the decision.
Mr, COBDEN—The same argument applied to all
treaties.

to human reason, that he hailed it as the beginning of a
great European and worldly reformation,-(Hear.)
Mr. URQUHART rose to wove an amendment ire
the form of die following resolution:--" That, to settle
differceces by any extranatiotial judicatory, 'would, if
practicable, be the subversitin of the indepencltnce Of •:
etch state, and the extinction of the law of nations.". The
lion. Member said that it' the motion were agreed to end
carried into practice, he could not understand bow they
could calf upon a Minister of State for Foreign Affairs !'or
an explanation of his policy with regard to any ineerna-
Lins! question. The natural effect of such a system
would be to deprive him of all judgment and 'power .on •
any sudden emergency. The power of the Crown would
be abrogated, and the independence of Parliament itself'
extineu shed. The Hon. Gentleman who moved this
resolution had himself destroyed the chief argument
upon which he recommended its adoption to the House.
The Honourable Gentleman said that the argument of
the insecurity o arbitration applied equaly to all
treaties, arid that was equal to an admission of the in'
security 01 his own. Ile (Mr. Urquhart) much regretted
that the attention of the country should be diverted by.
propositions of this kind from matters of greater
im-
portance. Ile had intended to move a resolution by waY
of amindineet, but finding the case of the lion. Mtn'',
her opposite so obviously weak, he should abstain front
doing so.
Mr. HOBHOUSE supported the resolution, and aald
it had been treated as many great innovations had-heeir
before, as a mere chimera, unworthy of attention. He
conceived that all the wars that had afflicted Europe
were in a great measure from the want of this at hive-
tion, as in many instances a nation would have re-
linquished its design if it could have found a plausiblepretext for se doing. It' that were not so, what meant
their protocols, diplomatic notes, demands, and re-
joinders, except that each nation wished to place its
cause before the world in the best light possible. The
adoption of a general system of arbitration would in his
opinion, supply the want which he was convinced hadbeen the cause of much Mischief. That seemed, net.
111 least. to be the common sense view of the matter.
might be that the stronger nation would afterward° re'
suit to the settlement of the sword, for men were iii 6 apt
to set might against right. But was that a reason why
they should not attempt to prevent evil consequences in
the first instance?—(Hear.) Let them endeavour to ce-
ment nations together in a general compact, by applying
to them the rules which governed the relations ex;
isting between individuals: Let wars be avoided, and
right and justice substituted in their place. For his
own part, he was grateful to the Hon. Member for
having moved :the reSolution. 'He admired the AM
wisdom, and firmness, with which the Noble Lord at the
head of the Foreign Department had prevented in this
country the horrors which had recently desolated the
fairest portion of the wurd —(l.lear, hear.) But he
wished to arm him with new powers, and to ask him
whether it was not better at once to lead the way in ,a
reform of this kind, than to be perpetuallylalking
favour of peace and doing nothing to procure it ?"
(Hear, hear.) He should like to see the power of.nege"
tinting and enforcing peace, and seeing that that was
practicable, as in the recent case of Sicily, he thought
the House ought to give full attention to the motion be;
tore it. He should take to see the experiment tried; and
he counselled his Hon. Friend, if he might so call bin',
to go on in the course of justice which he had marked
out for himself. The Hon. Member then adverted 10 a
Council of Sovereigns recently convened oa the Conti'
nent, for the purpose of biinging about peace by:arbitra-
tion. It was a just course, and had been found, in mall
instances, where tried, a successful one. He wished, then,
to give to -that which -had- been found practicable the
stamp of Parliamentary authority, and should, from a
full sense of the justice of the course proposed by the
Hon. Member, give him his support, feeble though it
was, and vote for his motion.--(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON assured his Hon. Friend the
Member fit the West Riding, and the House, that it was'
far from his intention to regard the motion now under
discussion with indifference. He agreed with his go- •
nourable Friend that it was of the greatest coniequenee
that questions involving the peace of nations should be
settled, if possible, without the intervention of war"
whose horrors and calamities no man could have a deeper
sense of than he had,—(llear, hear.) He would not
contrast the advantages that might arise out of the
horrors of war with those which were to bei
obtained from peace. He believed there diden",
e
exist a man who did not du all in his pollee to enee"..
your to save his country from the calamities of war;
and although he could not himself agree with his lieni
Friend so tar as to vote for his motion, still he was glad
that his Hon. Friend had brought it forward, for be be.
,
lieved that there was, in the minds of the people of this
country, and of every honest man, a desire to avoid the
horrors and calamities of war. But he was anxious 03
impress at tie same time on the minds of all parties'
that while England was anxious -to have peace, yet •
was ready, and it was her interest to be • res )1::
to defend her rights against foreign aggressto.,
come from what quarter it might.—(Hear.) He core
o
conceive nothing that culd bring into jeopardy
peaceful relations of this country more than that t,1_,3
foreign nation should suppose that they were attach
to peace, that they dare not go to war, or draw
sword in their defence.—(Hear, hear.) He quite egre!,,,'
with his Hun. Friend, and with those who acted 10'`'
him, that it was most desirable that there should not be
any wasteful application of the funds of the country In
keeping up a larger amount of force than necessary for
the defnce of the country.—(Hear, hear.) But with
regard to their defences, the absence of the meting
would be attended with the worst consequences. It
was necessary, also, that they should be so provi3e"
against the first outbreak of war, as to be ready st„a
moment to meet the exigency with naval and milt"
tary means. He said he could not agree with the Prrs,
posal of his Honourable Friend, because he thought'
it was founded on erroneous principles, and that i
would be impracticable. His Honourable Friend cams
~
to his conclusions by the analogy which he dr,e,".
between the affairs of private and public hi;
He said that in ordinary transactions between ma
and man matters of dispute were not urcommoniY eu
tied hv arbitration; but what might be effected betee,,,
individuals was not ro easy of accomplishment betwev,
nation,. Besides, if the question in arbitration was Ijoli
corlorm,d to by individuals, there was a higher tribune
to which they were at liberty to appeal, and to which
they commonly- submitted their differences for seeti,ee.
ment and by whose decision they were obliged to bide.
His Hon. Friend said that element was wanting in -
nation it questions. His Hon. Friend had alluded to
question of mediation between nations. But Hon. Men
bers ought not to lose sight of the distinction between
e,
re.
arbitration and mediation—a distinction which was lie
quently forgotten. The Noble Lord here gave a du"'
Lion, in the dip! matic sense, of the two terms, and pro
a
cenied to remark that his Hon. Friend was so well awal:
of the difficulties of his own plan, that he abandoned the
course which he marked out fur himself in the first

Mr. MACKINNON—But treaties were not successful
if they ended in a war.
Mr. COBDEN—But you have not yet tried whether
these decisions would be successful.—(lleer.) - •
Mr. MACKINNON—That was very true, and he
was quite disposed to admit that the proposed sptem of
arbitration was an excellent thought. At the same
time he thought it would be of great service, by ex-
pressing a favourable opinion upon the question, to show
to Europe that this country had peaceable intentions,
combined with the desire to give effect to them. For
this reason, and out of respect to the Hon. Gentleman
who had moved the resolution, he should give it his
willing support—(H, ar.)
Colonel THOMPSON said that having instructions
to support the motion, he should do no more than state
that he did so most heartily, and that he trusted it might
meet with all success. He felt convinced that political
societies would go on improving on the question of war;
and with regard especially to the present question, he
thought it contained so mach that was Wise, according

instance.
Mr. COBDEN assured the Noble Lord that be bpd
never altered his plan.
Lord PALMERSTON—The plan of his Hon. Friend.
if act, ci upon, would require the intervention of sell
third power. But the plan of his Honourable Friend.
had ',ever been acted upon. It was true there had bee.
:
cases of international arbitration ; but there were no
such cases as his Honourable Friend allude d to.- .13,1:
Honourable Friend who had just sat down (Mr 1-101"
house) had said that it would be a very desirable thil
if an European tribunal could be composed which WOO
act in matters of dispute IR twee n nations on principle's 0
justice and mediation ; but unfortunately the vvorlch7
not yet equal to that happy state of things.--( then
If they could find persons perfectly just, if ihe
could find persons impartial, if they could 1"A
persons perfectly disinterested—if they could
such, all Governments might easily settle h;
little disputes which might arise between them, vvit„"-
out having recourse to war—(Hear, hear) hut, un-
fortunately, such was the imperfection of bunt-
nature, that Governments were actuated, 12
acted upon like individuals, and swayed by icePr`i;
sions and conflicting interests of variotni.
was, in effect, so different, that it would be alweY"
impossible between two nations to form a Groverrileel
with which those nations, in a matter of dispute, WWI,
be satisfied. There was one case in which this country
submitted to arbitration, that of the Oregon boundary
between the United States and British North An3er!cilti
and in that case, after some temporising, the Unite
States chose a Sovereign—the King of the Netherlande
L_to whose arbitration the question between the two ea"
tions was submitted. But the United States, not liking
the award, refused to submit to it, and the result was the
the case was left once more to take its course betwersteli
the two nations, and was it not for the good sense Of
iit"e
two Governments, the matter might be yet in dis P-d.
_
With respect, then, to the proposal of his Hon. Fries,
the answer would be the conflicting interests and b;
hostile policy of nations towards each other. It wc)uch
be quite impossible to bring nations to agree with ea
other in the manner and on the principles recolalnen for
by the Hon. Member; and he (Lord Palmerston) .ect
one must say, that it would be most unwise to subige
England to the chances of such a plan.—(Hear) 0.
was not sure that ho ought to compliment the yrrd
posal of his Honourable . Friend. The Noble •b°
here gave an outline of his notion of Mr. Cobde:o
plan, and said that he thought the proposal for test
nations to name a man of science to arbitrate betvleb,
them was not free from objection. Now, if it was °to
jectionable, as he thought it was, to commit the interests
of their country in matters importing their dearest, aub
most essential rigbts, he must say he thought they Ise
to be cautious how they took any step that would ed
those rights and interests to the decision of any t-.,c
party, and that would be by displacing a Governtee
substitute as a person in private life; because Go° r;
0t
ments acted in a manner before the world, and differ& 0
from individuals in private life. And if they tockfi.
man in private life whose mind was not
such a position, in his humble opinion the same obi:0
Lion would apply. They all knew that there WO
problem which was considered a great difficulty, ne°3-hut
the ascertaining of the longitude—(Laughter)
ascertaining the latitude was always considered "ravoc,
easy.—(Renewed laughter.) Now, in the first Pi to
suppose a Commissioner appointed to endeavourer
quaiified ue,
trace disputed territory, and that they wanted to ass
tai- the boundary, as in the case of the Oregon teoot
tory, his Honourable Friend says—" Oh, you are
Great
to proceed unless on geographical principles."--(5....
laughter.) Well, two scientific men—philosopber,el
astronomers, he would call them—such as the celebrel:fla
Professor Humboldt, and another, are called ill, _„ci
they are told that they are to ascertain the latitude, °io
to give the limits of the respective territory. of
to work, and one of the astronomers says—" The
.difference is only to be ascertained by striking- thed the
through the centre of the earth"—(Laughter)--eri
other says, " No, it is wide of; that; the line 2c
n... the Terence can only be ascertained by striking
through the centre of the sun"—(Much laughter) they
so those two learned men left tLe question where
.40
found it. Now, in his opinion, nob perilous 111
•