The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-14 00:00:00

then was an additional duty of two shillings and, sixpence afford immediate relief, which was what the Agriculturists
per gallon imposed on foreign spirits. The consequence was, prayed for—not that the country would not right itself.—
tam the duty, instead of being increased, was diminished to Was there nothing also like moral strength ?---(Hear !)—Was
to 14569,0001. One would have thought that this would have there nothing like character in a country ? This favoured
tongta Ministers that nothing was to be gained by screw- isle had done more for the'world than all the rest of Europe tos
hog up the taxes, and would have induced them to retrace their gether. it had advanced science—it had advanced the cause of
steps. But what did they do ? Why, in 1812, they raised humanity—it had supported, with some few exceptions, the
the duty on Foreign Spirits to 19s. lid. per gallon ; and what cause of civil liberty, and what he thought the highest ground of
was the result P The importation of Foreign Spirits fell from boast, it was the.coutitry in which toleration first took root; and
2,000,e00 to 200,000 gallons, being more than 1-13th of what though from recent occurrences they might fear that bigotry
it woo before, ancVreducing the revenue from 2,000,0001. to still nad the ascendancy, it was no such thing—bigotry was con-
-20,001. The Honourable Member next adverted to the quered, and would never revive in England. Having this sense
substance of his Resolutions. He wished to repeal taxes to of the rank England was entitled to hold, he contemplated na-
the amount of three millions two hundred thousand pounds, tional dishonesty, perfidy and robbery,with horror, and he hoped
only 1,400,0001. more than the remission of taxes contemplated that death would close his eyes before he saw the degrade-
by the Noble Lord. He thought- that so much taxes might tion and the infamy-of his country.—(Hear, hear !)--The Peti-
lee repealed with safety to the public creditor, and without tioners from different parts of the country thought that the re-
infringing on,the Siokineriind. --Besides. the repeal of those duction of the debt would relieve the agricultural interest. Far
taxis, fitiMan injuring, would improve the Revenue : over- from such a result; such A breach of faith would reduce all the
taxatfolt .alWays decreased' instead of improving the Revenue. • interests of the country to a common mass of shapeless ruin. 'He
The ealootfy, betook it, had grown three times more wealthy had doubt, however, that a very great reduction of taxation
sinee 1792. 'The tax on wine at that period was- one million could be effected without injury to any of the interests of the
and a half ; according to the'advance of the country, the tax country. He referred to the Colonies for example, and in-
on that article ought to befour millions and a half, but it did stanced the Cape of Good Hope. The Navy *no, which had
not amount to more than a million and a half. He was aware been a favoured service, admitted of curtailment of expense. If
that the taxes which he now sought to repeal, .and even three he was told this would weaken the influence of the Crown, he
times their amount, would not relieve thepeoplea but his wish should say this was an idle fear in the present state of the Intel-
was to carry something, and if' he could not accomplish that lect of the t:ninny. The Ministry had it in their power to corn-
reductiorowhich he would wish, and which the necessities of inand a degree of influence which would render them impene-
ihe country required, he would at all events strive to effect trable to every attack, arm them with the love of the country
some reduction. He thought that unless the Right Hon. Gen- which, he was one of those who thought they did not at pre-
.tlerhan (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would be able to sent possess. He concluded by repeating his protest against
shevothat the repeal of taxes to the amount 0f1,400,0001. more any plan of national bankruptcy. The moment national faith
thaa the 'Noble Lord proposed to repeal would tend to the des- was violated, a scene of ruin and discord would be opened, and
traction of the Revenue, he (Colonel Davies) could not see the sun of Britain would set for ever.—(Hear!)
what objjetion there could be urged against the motion. The Mr. D. BROWNE thought the cause of the Agriculturists
'onourable Member concluded by moving the following Reso- had been injured by their introducing prayers for a change of
lotions : Ministry. Ile did not think the Resolutions would be of much
"1. That any tax which, by being unequally distributed, service to the farmer.
acts as a bounty to one part of the kingdoth and to the preju- Sir W. W. NVYNN said it was most preposterous to sup-
s-gee of another, is, in its nature, unjust, and ought to be dis- pose that taxes to the amount of 20,000,0001. could be reduced.
continued. , They must pay the,interest of the debt; and such a country as
"2. That the gross produce of the Excise Duties on salt, this could never be without an army and navy, which could not
hides, soap, and candles, in Great Britain, amounted, in the be kept up without taxes. Ile-would vote for the resolutions,
year ending sth January, 1822,:t0 the sum of 3,857,2391.; and inpsmuch as he looked upon the import price now fixed upon
-the net produce to 3,478,776 L ' . to be in a great measure the result of mutual consent. He la-
" 3. That there are no Excise Duties levied in Ireland, mented, however, that the duty was not higher. The great
a
on soap, salt, or candles ; and that the gross amount of the advantage of these resolutions was, that they embodied a mix-
duty on leather, in the year ending sth January, 1822, was ture of import price and of duty.
31.5941. ". Lord A LTHORPE defended the line of conduct pursued
" 4. That the whole of the Excise Duty on salt, and three-
on the recent discussion .of this subject by his Right Hon.
fourths of the duties on soap, candles, and hides, in Great Bri-
Friend, the Member for Knaresborough ; and also the Hon.
tain., be forthwith repealed. Member for Winchelsea. Ile could not quietly sit by, and
"5. That the taxes on windows and leather , in Ireland ,be hear any Gentleman say, that public credit was interfered with.
-
forthwith,repealed." It was said his (Mr. Tierney's) vote would be remembered
On the Resolutions being read,
' when his speech was forgotten; but would not-the same thing
-The SPEAKER said, he wished to state to the Honourable' be applicable to the Hot.. Gentleman himself? ,
Gentleman that the question before the House was, whether Mr. J. SMI Tat explained.
the" Report should be brought up? To that Report the Hon. Mr. CH ALONER saw no impropriety in the Resolution
Gentleman wished to tack certain Resolutions. It was clear Pro Posed, hy his lion. Colleague (Mr. NVyvill), which merely
that if those Resolutions were adopted by the House, though went to reduce the taxes, and not commit any breach of faith
they might profess to come from the Committee, they yet could with the public creditor.
• not he held as part of the Report. • Mr. PHILLIPS thought that, if the Hon. Member for Mid-
After some other observations from the 'SPEAKER as to burst had been in the House at the time the motion of the Hon.
*
the informality of the proceeding, Member, for York was made, that he could have voted for it
Colonel DAVIES agreed to withdraw his Resolutions for himself. The lion. hl ember then proceeded to notice the
the present. reference which had been made by the Honourable Member
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER complained for Essex (Mr. Western) to the price of foreign corn. Great
-that important Resolutions should be brought forward without difference of opinion existed on this subject as to the correct
due notice previously given. quoting of the averages ; but he had got averages of long and
-
Col. DAVIES said, that he laid those Resolutions on the short periods, by which it appeared that the price of corn at
Table of the House some days before they had been printed. Dantzig upon an average of many years, was 533. ; that of
• and put in the hands of Members. . five years, from 1796 to 1800, 535. Bd., and 1816 to 1820 it
Sir .1. SEBRIGHT said he was as anxious for the repeal of was a little above 675. Thus they had the averages taken at
taxes as. the Honourable Gentleman or any other person ; yet different,: periods and different terms of years, and this he
would he vote against the, esolutions if they had been put, and thought ought to be sufficient to dissipate all the alarm on the
-for this simple reason—because he did not think they had any subject of high prices and the reasonings built upon it. He
thing to do with the question before the House. He approved did not believe the House possessed the power of relieving the
of the Resolutions moved by the Noble Lord ; he thanked him present distress ; but if they were to attempt it, it would be a
for having proposed those Resolutions, because he believed great evil in legislation. lion. Gentlemen must not delude
- themselves with an idea that high prices were consistent with
- they were a distinct improvement of the Corn Laws.
• The motionhaving been withdrawn--on the question, that the the interests of the agriculturists or of the country. If they
Report be now brought up, being put from the Chair, . raised the price of the agricultural produce of this country high
Mr. WESTERN said, that he would take that opportttnity whilst that of others was low, they must seriously injure the
to express his sincere conviction that the Resolutions of the other interests. The manufacturing interest was now recover-
Noble Lord would not either directly or remotely serve ing from that state in which the agriculture was. Year after
,
the agricultural interests ; on the contrary, he believed that year they had been condemned to see their capital wasted, and
those Resolutions would give a very serious blow to' the even now their profits were extremely low ; and it was only the
-
a low wages of workmen that enabled them to go on, and this
ge severe effects of the Bill for regulating the currency, riculturists. The Honourable Gentleman next - dwelt on
could only be whilst the rate of provisions was proportionably
Ste
low. Gentlemen must not judge of the state of the commerce
as it regarded the landed interest ; alluding
to • the state of foreign
_prices, he said that, 'at the present from the exports, as these were mostly made upon speculation,
time, the price of wheat at the market at Hamburgh was from and not in compliance with orders ; and even if these exports
ofefio. to 31s, ; the pricy of rye 13s. to 14s, per quarter ; theprice met with a favourable market, the proceeds must be eligibly.
.of barley from eight shillings to nine shillings ; the price of disposed of before the merchant could count upon his gains.
oats from ss. 9d. to Bs.; such was the state of prices—the He wished to get rid of the whole system of averages, as he
freight from Hamburgh was not higher than from ports in the looked upon them as only misleading the farmers. 'Without
t
, county which he represented. Ile could assert, without the the averages he thought a duty of 20 shillings would be a very
fr of contradiction, that the Resolutions of the Noble Lord, fair rate. He believed that the' weight of indirect and direct
as
So far from inspiring confidence or hope—so far from satis- taxation upon manufactures was as great and greater than
upon agriculture. He opposed all the Resolutions which had
tying the agriculturists, had a directly contrary tendency,
been proposed, but those of the Hon. Member for Portarling-
and had created a great and general alarm. The Resolutions
the Noble Lord amounted to a breach of faith with the ton. He hoped, year after year, he would press them upon
of
t
Jaroled interest. The reduction of the importation price from the House ; for he was sure the longer they went on under the
80s. to 70s. was nothing less than a breach of faith. He be-
existing system, the greater would be the evil. The more that
Lewd it would be more satisfactory to the cultivators of the Hon. Gentleman was known, the more he would be respected,
soil, if they were left to remain for a time under the existing as one of the most original and wise writers on the subject of
law, than to be obliged to adopt the proposition of the Noble Political economy.
Lord. Mr. S 1/KES said, he had not yet been able to make up his
mind to any of the Resolutions, nor amendments upon them.

Mr. J. SMITH said, that it-was his opinion that the distress
41. the Agricultural body proceeded in a great measure from a
-superabundant harvest, and that the House could not apply a
remedy. Various remedies had been proposed, but it appeared
to him that the remedies, as they were called, would lead to
nothing but ruin and degradation. He regretted that he had
been prevented by illness from attending the discussion of a
motion of an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wyvill). The motion went
to embrace a great and general reduction of taxation.; and the
spee.:h with which it was introduced suggested the propriety of
taking off SO millions—that was proposed to relieve agriculture.
He did not think that if it were the intention to ruin agriculture
there could be a better expedient proposed. The effect of ta-
krig off 20 millions or 15 millions of taxes would necessarily be
Iminution of the expences of the country ; but how could the
public expences be diminished ? No man would be so absurd
as to say that the army and navy could be prevented from re-
ceiving their pay. What then was to follow ? He thought it
would not be uncharitable to say that the meaning of the Hon.
.I<eni;)cr was to reduce the property of the stockholder,—what
mold he the effect of that measure? T-hefirst consequence would
be to reduce the dividend of the fundholder one half—an act of
injustice in itself, and one which would excite great alarm, parti-
cvlasly amongst foreigners, who had large sums in the English
feeds. If dividends were to be reduced one half, or at all, fo-
rfteleers of course would be glad to sell out, and invest their
naoaey in their own country. But it was not foreigners alone
that would do so—Englishmen would be ready to follow their
example : indeed, at the present moment, there existed a strong
disposition upon the part of Englishmen to invest their pro-
perty in foreign funds ' • and it was clear that, if the Dividends
were reduced by one-half, .that disposition would greatly in-
crease. The consequence would be, that Exchange" would fall
iei this country, as it did in France in 1792 and 1793. The
consequence of that fall would be a great and immediate de-
mand for bullion, and if that demand continued to be made,
the Bank would cease to •pay in bullion in the course of one
=nth. The greater part of the property of the Bank was in
the hands of the Government. But if the scheme was once
adopted that the public creditor ,should be deprived of his
dividend, the question would soon arise whether the Bank
lied a better right to be paid than any other of the public
creditors ? In that state of things, it would be certain
that the notes of the Bank would not, and ought not,
to pass. The country banks would next close their doors.
independent of their connexion with the Bank of England,
the country bankers were themselves fundholders ; their
puperty depended upon the state of public credit; and if
that were interfered with, the country banks would not stand
long; a scarcity of money would necessarily follow. If there
was aty principle more than another which that House main-
- Wired, it was this, that a scarcity of money produced low prices.
If prices were to fall still more, the land would produce little
more than the support of its ,paupers and the cultivator. He
lamented teat he could not attend in his place at the discussion
of the motion, and he regretted that he did not see the Hon.
genilmeelis who proposed it in his place; he respected that Hon.
Gent--hc respected him the more highly, because he was the
son of a man whose name was dear to the liberties of his coun-
try. Lie was aware that the Hon. Member for Winchelsea
(:,;r. Brouee-ham), and also his Right lion. Friend (3f r.Tierney)
voted for the :notion ; for his Right Honourable Friends he
had the highest respect—they acted from conviction, no doubt,
but still he regretted their votes, because their votes were
likely to he remembered when the qualifications which they
ads.c.r.ed to them would he forgotten. He knew it would be
said that he belonged to what was called the Monied Interest,
and that he did not feel for the interest of the Agriculturist.—
With respect to the Monied Interest, he was not aware of any
act of cruelty or insensibility ever committed by them. The
Honourable Gentleman next alluded to the state of taxation.
—lfe Weuld be glad to repeal taxes as much as with safety
could be repealed. Ile would wish to oppose the Leather
Tax, because he lucked .pon it as an injurious and op-
presswe tax • various other taxes ought to be repealed, and for
the velpeid of every tax he would cheerfully vote, save that ge-
o'v*l sweep of repeal, which would lead, not to retrench-
ment, but to infamy and ruin.—One objection to the motion
of the Honourable Member for York was that it did not

which had been proposed, 'and therefore he had abstined from
voting upon any of them. In his opinion it was not from su-
perabundance of produce that the distress had,beee caused,
but by the alteration of the currency. He considered that (I
reduction of taxation was the best ground upon which na-
tional credit could rest ; and lie agreed with the Honourable
Member for Callington Attwood), that when corn was
at a high price, all other interests must suffer. He did not
agree with those who stated agriculture to be exclusively in a
bad state. Ile thought the manufacturing interest was also
suffering.
Mr. RICARDO, in explanation of allusions which had been
made to his statement of the prices of foreign corn, begged
Hon. Gentlemen would bear in mind that there were two au-
thorities on that subject that were quoted from generally, who
differed much in their items. The calculations of Mr. Solly
were made in conformance with the variations of our paper cur-
rency, and were, therefore, always higher than those of Mr.
Gray, who made his calculation upon a fixed exchange. He
had built his argument on the latter; and it would be found
that, whilst he quoted from one paper, Hon. Gentlemen quoted
from another, and thus the misunderstanding.arose. He hoped
therefore he should be acquitted of any intention to mislead.
Mr. ATTWOOD contended that the whole of the Resolu-
tions proposed by the Noble Marquis were founded on falla-
cious views of the subject. No information had been laid be-
fore the Committee with respect to the corn in France. It was
agreed, however, by writers oldie best authority, that the price
of corn never diel materially differ in this country and in France.
It was utterly impossible, for any Corn Law to regulate the
price. of corn, for it depended on the value and amount of
money, which was the price of labour,' and there were no means
of affecting the price, except by altering the value, or increas-
ing the amount, of the circulating medium. The Noble Lord
opposite had said that great abundance prevailed universally
in every part of the world but there was one country, Por-
tugal, which might have 'furnished an exception to this re-
mark. The Honourable Member for Oxford (Mr. Peel) had
talked of the flourishing state of the Exchequer, and had
boasted of the operation of his own Bill in diffusing unusual
abundance among the,labouring Classes of the community. The
unsettled state in which the arrangements with regard to our
currency were placed, was a subject which deserved the serious
consideration of the House. If the suggestion of the Honour-
able Member for Essex (Mr. Western) were adopted, and we
returned to the paper standard, which existed during the war,
the price* now proposed would not afford that protection
which they were intended to afford. If, on the other hand, it
was determined to adhere to the present standard of value, he
would then say that the country was not on the eve, but in
the midst, of a great and extensive change, which would affect
not-merely the agricultural, but all the great commercial and
political interests of the country. What the issue of this change
would be it was impossible to foresee, but he nost earnestly de-
precated aey attempts'. at rash and improvident legislation on
this subject. If the House could not afford effectual relief to
the agricultural interest, they should be cautious not to increase
their calamities, and, by provoking (heir resentment, raise a
storm in the country, which it was much easier to excite than to
direct or coutrotil. It was too much to say that the currency was
established on an unalterable basis, when this iniquitous mea-
sure was working the most ruinous effects in every part of the
kingdom. If his Majesty's Government (lid not disregard
every principle of justice, they would immediately consent to
a reduction of all pensions and salaries in proportion to the
altered value of the currency, for it was not to be endured that
men whose salaries had been raised on the ground of the de-
preciated value of money should continue to enjoy them, when
the altered value of the currency' had produced a difference in
the value of those salaries of from 30 to 50 per cent. He
thought the Resolutions of the Noble Marquis were in no de-
gree calculated to answer the expectations of the country, and
he earnestly exhorted the House not to agree to them.—
(Hear, hear !)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was surprised that the
House should be called upon to pause, and in fact to decline
receiving this report till the scheme of the Honourable Member
could be realised. When he said that 41 salaries and pen-