The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-22 00:00:00

FRENCH CLAIMS.

Mr. MACKINNON gave notice that he should move
for a Morning Sitting on Thursday next, to consider the sub-
ject of the French claims.
FACTORIES BILL. _ _

Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition from the factory
labourers of Tewkesbury and Barnsley, praying the House
to pass the Ten Hours' Bill. The Hon. Member also
presented a petition from Joseph Fielding, schoolmaster of
Middleton, praying the House to protect the public in those
cases wherein persons were supposed to die from one cause,
but in reality from the practice of medical men.—(A
laugh.) The petitioner prayed that when a person
died under doubtful circumstances, and under the
operation of a medical man, the medical practitioner. him-
self may not conduct the examination. The Bill which
he had before the House would remedy this evil, if his
Majesty's Ministers would allow it to pass this session.
LAND LOOM WEAVERS.

Lord D. STE WART presented a petition from 900
land loom weavers of Kilmarnock, complaining of distress,
and praying the House to pass some measure of relief.
The Hon. Member also presented a petition to the same
effect from Pollockshawes, in Renfrewshire.
SOUTH LONDON CEMETERY.

Mr. HARVEY brought up the Report' of the South
Metropolitan Cemetery.
Mr. POTTER begged to know if the necessary amend-
ments bad been made in the Bill?

Mr. HARVEY replied in the affirmative.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. BAINES had to complain of a very serious
grievance which every Member of the House must have
felt.

The SPEAKER inquired if the Hon. Member had any
specific motion to make ?
Mr. BAINES intended to give notice of a motion.
The SPEAKER—Then the Hon. Member will please
..-;
to state what it is laugh.)
Mr. BAINES would have been very glad to state his rea-
motion •
sons, but they were too .well, known. His was,
to prevent the necessary interruption =of the business
'al Parliament from forty Members not being present when
the Speaker takes the chair, that a quarter of an hour be
allowed in order to assemble the suitable number of Mem-
bers ; and that when it is observed that the proper number
of Members are not present, then a quarter of an hour be
allowed before the House is counted out. He begged to
give that notice for Tuesday next. •
Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that on Tuesday the 26th
instant, he should present a petition from the underwriters
and others interested in the wreck of his Majesty's ships.
The dropped Orders of yesterday were read over for
the purpose of being fixed for other days.
Mr. WAKLEY complained of the non-attendance of
the Members of the Government yesterday, there being
only two present, and hoped they would condescend to state
when they would have a House on Wednesday?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the rain was much more to blame than the Government
for there being no House.—(Hear and laughter.) He
was as much disappointed as any one, for he had a notice
on the books, and though it was not a Government Bill, he
was very anxious to get on with it. He was, therefore, one
of those unhappy persons who were suffering from the non-
attendance of Members.
STAMP DUTIES 81LL...,
Mr. ROBINSON said the Chancellor of Exchequer
bad promised that he would then be able to inform the
House, whether it was his intention to proceed with any
other part of the Stamp Duties Bill than that part of it
which related to Newspapers. It would be very conve-
nient for the House to know what course it was intended
to take with regard to it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he did not think that he would be enabled to pass the whole
of the Bill during the present Session. There were certain
parts of it, however, which he thought it would be his
duty to endeavour to carry into a law this session.
Mr. WALTER said he had a very important petition
to present, and he hoped he would be allowed to do so then.

The SPEAKER said it was now 5 o'clock, and the
Hon. Member could not nresent a petition so late.
Mr. WALTER said fie had given notice of his intention
to present it on reading the Order of the Day.

The SPEAKER said if the Hon. Member were allowed
to present his petition now, other members might claim the
same liberty, and they would never get into public business.

AG RI CULTURAL COMMITTEE.

Lord DARLING TON wished to know from the
Noble Lord opposite ( Hovvick) whether this Committee in-
tended to report this Session ? He had heard with
no less regret than astonishment, that the Com-
mittee had come to the conclusion not to make a report.
He was sure if this were the case, that the agri-
cultural community would feel extreme dissatisfaction.
He wished also to hear whether, as it ivas not intended to
make a report, any motion would be brought forward so as
to lead to a general discussion of the subject, so that the
public might be informed of the reasons that had prevented
the Committee from making a report ?
Lord HO WICK, as the question bad been put to
him, had no hesitation in saying that it was certainly
a matter of no less surprise to him, to hear that the
Gentlemen of the Committee were not prepared to adopt a
report.—( Hear, hear.) The motion to this effect had been
by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Cumberland
(Sir James Graham), and seconded by the Noble Lord
the Member for Buckinghamshire (Lord Chandos). The
members of the Government were perfectly prepared to
discuss the proposition of a report which had been made by
his Hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire (Mr. Le-
fevre) ; in deference, however, to the
_opinions of those
Gentlemen immediately connected with the agricultural in-
terests upon the Committee, they (the Government) ac-
quiesced in the strong desire that was expressed that there
should be no opinion whatever reported—(Cheers)." He would
take that opportunity of stating that, previous to this con-
clusion being adopted, he had ventured to state his sur-
prise that in a Committee of 25 persons present (18 being.
county Members), not one of them took any interest in
bringing forward any proposal for discussion with a view
to relief. If, therefore, the Noble Lord (Darlington)
felt disappointed, for that disappointment the members of
the Government on the Committee were not responsible.—
(Loud cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said that as he had been alluded to
personally by the Noble Lord, he felt it due to himself to
state how the facts really stood. The Noble Lord had
entered into disclosures of the reasons given by individual
members of a Select Committee, and of the conduct of in-
dividual members.

Mr. HA WES rose to order. If this discussion were
continued, any Member of the House who entertained
opinions opposite to those of the Right Hon. Baronet
would, he hoped, have an opportunity of stating them.
Sir J. GRAHAM claimed a right to be heard in expla-
nation of what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Howick).
It was not possible to conceive a subject of greater im-
portance to the country than this, at the time the motion
for a Committee was made. By whom was that motion
made ? By the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for
the Home Department. Did the Government undertake
the management of the agency ? When a similar inquiry
was instituted during the Government of Earl Grey, a Cabinet
Minister presided over it, and it was carried on under the
control of the executive Government. What was done on
this occasion Did any Member of the Government take
the chair ?—and did the Members of the Government on the
Committee give a constant attendance during the progress
of the inquiry ? The chair was filled by an Honourable
Member who supported the Government, but he was
not connected with them ; and as to attendance, a note
had been taken of every day's attendance, and by that
it would appear what the attendance of the Members
of the Government had been. The Noble Lord (Howick)
said that the Members of the Government had
acquiesced in there being no report. It was true that that
Noble Lord himself did object to the course that was pur-
sued ; but he appealed to him, and to the other Members
of the Committee, as to what had been the course pur-
sued by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Lord J. Russell). He asked whether
any Member of the Committee commented in more severe
terms on the proposal that a report should be made than
the Noble Lord (Russell.) It was, therefore, with astonish-
ment that he heard from the Noble Lord (Howick), that the
members of the Government had barely acquiesced in there
being no report.—(Loud cheers.) He understood the
Noble Lord himself (Howick) that nothing would induce
him to agree to the report proposed, but that there was
a report of another description which he favoured. (The
Right Hon. Baronet sat down amid cries of " Move, move.")
Sir J. GRAHAM—Sir, I move that the other Orders
of the Day be now read.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of CHANDOS said that he had opposed
this report, and he had done so believing that if the
report had gone before the country as it existed before the
Committee, it would have done more harm to the farmer
than any one could possibly conceive. If there was any
blame in doing so, he would take upon himself the whole of it.

Mr. S. LEFEVRE was sure there was every en-
deavour on the part of the Committee to sift every ques-
tion of agricultural distress. Ho bad himself taken
every pains upon the subject, his only object being
that every person connected with agriculture, who had
any thing to complain of should have their complaints sifted.
With respect to this unfortunate report, all he could say
was, that it was framed with an honest conviction that it
was supported by the evidence adduced. He might be
right or wrong ; but he certainly thought if the Committee
had done him the honour to go on with the report, every
paragraph in it would have been supported by evidence. No
one had a greater interest in the prosperity of the farmer
than he had ; but the great mischief, in his opinion, was
that the farmers had never been told what their real inte-
rest was. They had been taught to place great dependence
upon the Corn Laws, and such things—(Hear, hear)—and
therefore it was that he was anxious to disclose to the

farmer that they must not look solely to Parliament for a
redress of their grievance, but to their landlords—(Cheers)
—who should reduce their rents.—(Continued cheers,
and cries of " Hear.") He really thought that any report
to be satisfactory to the House or the public should have
been unanimously agreed to by the Committee.—(Cheers.)
It was his belief that it was not in the power of the Le-
gislature to do the farmer any great -good, and he hoped
ere long they would be convinced of that.
Mr. HUME said the Committee was moved, at the
earnest and anxious desire of the country gentlemen
on the other side of the House.—(Cheers.) And if a
Committee was to be appointed on so important a
question, the Government were right in acceding to the
request. He was glad to hear that it had ended as it had ;
it was nothing more than he expected.—(Cheers.) But
with respect to the statements of the Noble Marquis, he
would tell him that the parts of the evidence he had seen,
instead of supporting, destroyed his case altogether.—
(Cheers.) The labouring man was now in a better condi-
tion than he- was before, or had been for many years.
The great object of the Noble Lord was to take taxation
off the landed interest. Why, what taxation did they
bear ?—(Cheers.) None, except for a few horses, and so
on.—(Cheers.) The landed interest did not pay one-fourth
of the taxes that other members of the community did.—
(Cheers.) He differed with the Noble Marquis on the
point of allowing the evidence to go forth to the public—he
wished it to do so, because he was sure it would make a
case against the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.)
Mr. E. DENNISON said the real question before the
Committee was not whether they should agree to the report
of the Chairman, but,whether they should agree to any
report at all. The course pursued was before the Chaipt
man's report was considered, and the motion made tlrat
it should be .taken into consideration, the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, ,in .order to save the time of the Committee, as he
stated, said he would state his opinion on the subject, and
on that motion he was seconded by the Noble Lord op-
posite.
Sir C. B. VERE thought it was the bounden duty of
the Government or the House to draw a report from this
Committee. After agricultural distress had been so uni-
versally acknowledged—after the Legislature had been
called upon by the Government to inquire into the nature
and the causes of the distress—it certainly would be considered
most strange that the Government had not taken any pains,
had not taken any step, to induce the Committee to have
laid some report upon the table of the House. What, or
to whom, were the agricultural body to look if they were so
deserted by the Government and by that House—they
will enquire how it happened, and the conclusion they
must come to will be a very dishearteninc, one.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) The report which had been
drawn up could never have been sanctioned by the agricul-
tural body—it was preposterous. It was now said that the
evidence was to be communicated to that body ; but what
possible satisfaction could that give them ? As the present
Government refused to do justice or their duty by that
body, he hoped he would soon see another Government
in their places who would do so.

Mr. W AKLEY could not allow the statements which
had been made with regard to the welfare of the labourers
to go forth without enquiring, whether any labourers had
been called before the Committeee ; and if so, from what
county were they selected ?
Several Hon. Members rose, but there was a general
cry for—
, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who said he was sorry that
• lie had not been present at the commencement of the dis-
cussion ; for he felt bound to afford such explanation
as was in his power, after what had fallen from the
Hon. Baronet opposite. The case stood thus—the Noble
Lord, the Member for the county of Buckingham, had
given notice of his intention of moving for a Committee to
enquire into the causes of Agricultural Distress. The
Government thought that from the many complaints which
had been made of distress from the owners of land, but
more particularly from the occupiers, it was fit that
a Committee' should be appointed ; at the same
time in proposing that Committee, he did not state that
there was any permanent measure of relief which could be
pointed out by such a Committee, but that oerta;rl burdens,
such as county rates and poor rates, they might inquire
and point out whether those measures lately passed by the
Legislature had been beneficial in their operation. The
Committee had prosecuted its inquiries with great dili
gence. He had said in Committee it would be unwise
to put any fetters on the inquiries of the Committee,
and the consequence was, that he believed the Committee
went into an inquiry more extended than the Committee of
1833 had done. At the conclusion of their labours, but at
• the same time while there were a sufficient number of the
Members of the Committee still in attendance, his Hon:
Friend the Chairman of the Committee proposed the draft
of a report. That draft of the report was communicated
to him, along with other Members of the Committee. A
meeting of the Committee was summoned to consider it,
and at that meeting not less than 25 Members of the Com-
mittee attended, of whom IS were Members for counties,
chiefly representing agricultural districts. He had gone to
the Committee, in the expectation that the draft Report
was to be considered point by point, and he was then
ready to give his opinion upon every sentence of
Hear, hear.) To his great astonishment he found
the Chairman of the Committee of 1833, his Right Hon.
Friend (the Member for Cumberland) proposing to the Com-
mittee that the whole report should be suppressed, that not a
word of it should be taken into consideration, but
that a Resolution should be passed, saying that they
should report only the evidence. He had thought
that that was rather extraordinary, but his surprise was
lessened, and his opinion was certainly a good deal changed,
when the Noble Lord the Member for Buckinghamshire
seconded that proposition.—( Cheers.) He was astonished
to find that not only was it proposed to suppress that report,
but that by those who had been calling out for months,
. not only for months, but for years.--(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the distress of the agriculturists, he had no
proposal to make—(Cheers)—he had no definite remedy
to propose upon Agricultural Distress.—(Renewed cheers.)
He had stated to the Committee that it was his wish
they should give their opinion with respect to the
Poor Laws, and the new Poor Law Bill now
in operation ; that they should give their opinion with
respect to a remedy regarding tithes ; and that it was his
wish likewise, that they should come to some opi-
nion or other with respect to the question of
the currency, which had been much inquired into by that
Committee. He had declared himself ready to enter into those
questions, and that he would endeavour to make his opinions
prevail ; but if his opinions did not prevail, he
was ready to say the Committee agreed to a re-
port stating the opinions of the majority of
that Committee. Under these circumstances, he did say the
Government were not responsible that the Committee had not
come to any other result. His Noble Friend had stated that
the Committee not coming to any other report, nega-
tived the statements that had been made with re-
gard to agricultural distress, and the remedies that
had been proposed.—(Hear.) He concurred in that
opinion.--.(Hear, hear.) The House was of course well
aware that the subject of the currency had often been
made matter of complaint amongst the farmers, and that
it had been frequently put forward as the great means of
remedying their distress ; it was therefore much to be re-
gretted that the Committee should have separated without
coming to a decided opinion upon a question so much oc-'
copying the attention of the agricultural classes. He
thought that when so fair an opportunity offered, there
ought to be an expression of opinion on the partof the Com-
mittee against any change in the measure respecting the cur-
rency, which the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth several years ago introduced. His own opinions on
that subject were, of course, well known ; it was needless
for him to repeat them ; but he hoped he might be allowed
to say, that for the non-adoption of a Report on that sub-
ject, his Majesty's Government• were not responsible.—
( Hear.) Those members of the Administration who happened
to be on the Committee came down prepared, in consider-
ing the Report generally, for a three or four days' debate
on the several topics which it ought to have embraced. But
as the House had now been made aware, there was no Re-
port ; distress existed in the opinion of several members ;
it was said to have existed for many years past, especially
amongst the occupiers, whose circumstances he, in common
with others, much lamented ; still those members of the
Committee who sat at the opposite side of the House, said
there was, notwithstanding the alleged distress extensively
prevailing and long-continued, to be no change in the
currency—no removal of the malt-tax—no measure of
specific relief.—(Hear, hear.) He was not particularly fond
of calling himself the advocate of the agriculturists-*---he
was not particularly fond of calling meetings of the farmers
and representing to them that either the Government or
the Parliament could do much for their relief ; neither was
he fond of telling them that one of the great political par-
ties into which the House happened to be divided was com-
posed of none but their enemies, and the other of none but

their friends—( Hear, hear)—that was what he had not
done ; what he did was of this description—he co-operated
with the former Government in all measures for the relief
of the agricultural interest—he co-operated with that Go-
vernment in passing a Biil for preventing abuses in the ad-
ministration of the Poor Laws, which was a vast improve-
ment to rents, a great security to land, and calculated to effect
a decided amelioration in the state of the labouring popula-

tion of England, especially as regarded the independence of
their character. Another measure for the relief of the agri-
cultural interest which he was instrumental in passing was
that which put an end to the almost intolerable burthen of
the payment of tithes in kind. He had assisted his Right
lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to
the grievance of county-rates. He thought he was warranted,
then, in saying that he had on every occasion supported mea-
sures calculated to promote the interests of the agriculturist,
and the advantage of the country at large, agricultural, mann-
facturing,and commercial ; at the same time that he had never
stood forward as the especial advocate of any particular class.
He did not think that, as the member of a Government, or as
a Member of Parliament, he should be justified in pursuing
such a course of conduct, for his doing so would render him
undeserving of that character of impartiality which ought to
I distinguish men in both situations.—(Hear, hear.) He had
never raised any cry on either side of any of those questions.
He had proposed no imputations on the character of Par-
liament or of parties ; he had supported the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite, as regarded the malt tax and the cur-
rency, as well as in any other wise and enlightened mea-
sure which he introduced : when the interests of the coun-
try were at stake he did not regard party advantages.
( Hear, hear..) He trusted that he had now fairly stated
the position in which the Committee were placed, and that
he had succeeded in showing that the Committee consi-
dered the farmers were indulging a perfect delusion when
they supposed that Parliament could adopt any direct
measures of relief to the alleged agricultural distress ; they
in fact suggested no measures by which distress could be
relieved, or discontent removed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. 0. GORE hoped that the fact of the Committee

not making a report would not be considered as a
proof that great distress did not exist. He
thought that the Committee were not doing their
duty in, separating without making a report.—(Loud
cheers.) The farmers throughout the country could not
spare time to wade through the whole of the evidence, and
therefore the Committee ought at best to have drawn up a
summary.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL, as a Member oaLtighSiommittee, thought
it necessary to say a few words. When the. Conniiiitteel
was appointed, he gave a reluctant went. He gait 'an -‘s--
sent to it upon these express terms—he knew that
distress prevailed in many parts of the country, and he
knew what were the feelings of those who witnessed that dis-
tress, and who were suffering from it. He therefore acceded
to this inquiry upon this single ground, that it might
in some degree reconcile the parties to endure the distress
that could not be remedied. He could not con-
ceal from himself the fact, that the only public
tax bearing directly upon the agricultural interest
to any important amount was the Malt Tax. That
was a subject of so much importance, connected as it was
with the whole financial concerns of the country, that he
felt satisfied the House would reserve to itself a deliberate
judgment upon it, and would not take the report of a
Committee with respect to its reduction.—(Hear, hear,
and loud cheers.) He was not disappointed that
the Committee had not agreed upon a report. He was
sure that his Honourable Friends would naturally
feel surprised at the absence of a report ; but he was
equglly sure that their surprise and disappointment were
comparatively small to that which they would have felt if
the Committee had presented a report. Then, with re-
spect to the supposed relief from a change in the currency,
it was his opinion that as they had now lived for fifteen "or
sixteen years under a settled and determined currency, it
would be highly injurious to the public interest to change
it. Nothing could advance the interest of the workman
more than to receive the reward of his labour in a fixed
currency. As to himself', he was more bound up with the
agricultural than with any other interest, and should be the
last man to injure it. His attachment to the agricultural
interest was for manifold reasons of the most rooted
kind. Reasons of the strongest nature, both socially
and politically, rendered it his duty to maintain and in-
crease the prosperity of that interest, which did not
apply to interests of a different nature. On the occasion
of .the Committee being moved, he had delivered his opi-
nion upon the probability of the success of that Committee.
By the interference, he had then said, of the Legislature,
benefit to the agriculturist would not arise. He had said
that it was by increased attention to rearing the articles
produced, and by attention to cultivation in general, rather
than by legislative interference, that any good could be ef-
fected, and that to hold out expectations of any material
good from the labours of the Committee, was to encourage
expectations of a most fallacious kind.—(Hear, hear.) He
now entertained the same opinion, and he said to the far-
mers of England, " Turn your attention to Scotland, and
thete you will find that the agriculturist himself can more
beneficially and more adequately assist himself, than he can
be assisted by the interference of Parliament." He told
them what he believed to be the honest truth, that
liiment could not apply itself to individual cases, and that
if it interfered, it could not do so effectually : so it was better
it should not interfere at all. A great revolution had taken
place in the country, which had rendered the fruits of la-
bour convertible where previously they had been of no
avail. That revolution had been brought about by the
powerful agency of steam. By means of steam naviga-
tion the produce of what had heretofore been considered
exhausted soil had been brought into competition with
others produced in distant markets. The produce of stiff
and clay land had been brought into competition with the
produce of more favourable soils. But so long as that
competition continued, and until the course of time gave it
an unavoidable check, it was impossible that partial distress
should not exist without there was a considerable reduction
in the rents of those lands most unfavourable to cultivation,
so as to enable them more successfully to compete with
lands of a more fertile character. His Noble Friend (the
Marquis of Chandos) had designated the report as a meagre
and unsatisfactory document, and the Noble Lord opposite
had also expressed his dissatisfaction. Now his recollection
of the Noble Lord's opinion, as gathered upon the Com-
mittee, was not the same, he thought, as that he had now
delivered. With respect to that Committee, he must say
that it had exhibited industry, ability, and perfect impar-
tiality, in the performance of duties not in themselves agree-
able. But, if he recollected right—as the secrets of that
prison-house had been divulged—(A laugh)--the Noble
Lord had concurred in the propriety of the course pursued.
The Noble Lord, who had commenced reading the report
like a magician, backwards—(Laughter)--gradually pro-
gressing from important to slighter matter, had, to use
the old style of phraseology, knocked out all the brains of
the report.—( Laughter.) One by one he had stated his satis-
faction in most of the details, but in the report he could not
agree in one. He was not sure that he did not express his
satisfaction on the settlement of the question of the cur-
rency on moving for the Committee for Agricultural In-
quiry, according to that most agreeable reminiscence—(A
laugh)—the recommendation contained in the King's
speech. On that subject—a portion of the agricultUral
question—he would read the resolution to which that
House had thought it necessary to come. [The Right
Hon. Baronet here read the resolution, which was to the
effect that any alteration in the monetary system would be
highly inexpedient and dangerous.] In what had followed
from that alteration he had not been at all disappointed, as
he had ventured from the first to predict them. With re-
seet to this, the Report, instead of stating the opinion of
the Committee as a select body, had adopted the resolu-
tion of the House of Commons, in which every man con-
curred who had any interest in the country not solely de-
pending upon agriculture. They relied merely on the in-
trinsic force of truth. With respect to the Corn Laws, the
Noble Lord thought it too important a subject to be treated
by a Committee. The same with the malt tax, and the
same with its concurrent subject, foreign grain. The Noble
Lord thought the malt tax too important, as a Report of
the Committee in favour of its reduction would be pledging
the Chancellor of the Exchequer for future years. [Some
expression of dissent from, we believe, Lord John
Russell, was here made, on which Sir Robert Peel said,
" Shall I nail you down to the words ?" a remark which, in
consequence of its tone and manner, with its evident allu-
sion to what had taken place in Committee, created consi- -
derable laughter.] The Noble Lord, he must say, had so
industriously used his sickle in gathering up the different
matters of which the evidence was composed, that he really
had nothing whatever to do but to express his assent to
him, that in making no report at all they would cause less
disappointment than by making one. The country had all
this time been gasping for an opinion ; and he agreed with
the Noble Lord that it was better to present no report at
all than present a mutilated document. It was true that
the Noble Lord had been desirous of not passing over the
remission of the county rate, which had been diminished by
70,0001. On this remission, so far diminished in conse-

quence of some share of the expenses of criminal prosecu-
tions being borne by the Government, the Noble Lord was
desirous of pronouncing a panegyric. To this he objected,
for the agriculturists must necessarily be aware of the fact of
so important a reduction in the county rate as a farthing in
the pound, or else they did not pay sufficient attention to
the subject of those burthens for the abatement of which

they expressed such avidity; and, if supposed they were
aware of it, it was necessary to mention it. Again,
the Noble Lord suggested that the relief to the landowner
by the passing of the Tithe Bill should be mentioned ; but
as that measure still remained to be approved by the House
of Lords, he thought it would be better to spare any men-
tion of it until it had passed into a law. The Noble Lord
had also proposed that allusion should by made to the sub-
ject of the new poor laws, they having conferred such great

benefit. Now, as be had taken a part in the passing of
that measure, and did expect from it most important results,
he should gladly have done so, but the benefits that bad
arisen were not in evidence before them. He thought it was
the most important measure ever given to the agriculturists,
but as there was no evidence before them of this as a fact, as
the subject had only been brought up in the course of in-
quiry, arising incidentally, and being no part of the main
question, he thought that to give it so particular a promi-
nence would be doing more than they had a right to do.
They might have predicted that the operation of that mea-
sure held out a degree of hope to the agricultural interest
beyond any other ; but, though they might say so, they
were not supported by evidence. The fact was, that it
was to themselves the farmers must principally look.
Let them turn their attention to the important improve-
ments which had been made in Scotland, where, by the
use of an improved plough upon stiff lands, and a system of
draining the sub-soil, very much benefit had arisen. Well,
then, the Noble Lord had agreed to strike out everything
about the currency, everything about the malt tax, and the
collateral question of duty on foreign grain. The plough
stood in too cold a clay—( Hear, hear)--it held too promi-
nent a position for the owners of light land ; and so, on the
whole, it was thought better to omit any mention of the
plough. For himself, he must say, that at first he was in-
clined to make a report ; but he afterwards, on the whole,
acquiesced in the propriety of omitting it, and he was now
quite convinced that, although disappointment was felt at
the omission, the disappointment was as nothing to what
would have been felt if a report had been made. He hoped
that he had not mis-stated anything which had occurred in ,
the Committee, but he had thought it right to state what
-he had, as the Noble Lord, as author of that Committee,
was responsible for it—responsible, as having advised the
King to recommend its appointment.
Mr. C. SANFORD thought that if the Committe had
done their duty they would have moved an adjournment,
and drawn up a set of resolutions.
Sir R. PRICE concurred with the Right Hon. Baro-
net the Member for Tamworth in thinking the subject was
not one entirely for the Legislature.
Mr. HAWES expressed his surprise that the Right
Hon. Baronet should have claimed credit for his assistance
in passing the New Poor Law Act.
Sir R. PEEL had been totally misunderstood if he was
supposed to have claimed credit for what he had done. He
did not wish on any account to detract from the credit due
to ,his Majesty's Government. He took no active part in
it, but he voted for it, when be might have raised a fac-
tivate opposition by making it a party question.
'Aiter-, some further remarks from Mr. HAWES and
from Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in explanation, which we
--Sit riot Vero', the evidence of the Committee was ordered
tole received::
Ir. S. LE FEVRE then brought up the evidence.
HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

On the Order of the Day being moved,
Mr. HUME rose to bring forward his motion respecting
the building of the two Houses of Parliament. He com-
plained that the plan adopted by the Committee was not
in accordance with the instructions laid down for the inte-
rior accommodation of the House. He thought, also, that
too short a time had been allowed—the time being only
three or four months—for the artists to prepare their plans.
He had been informed that some of the most eminent ar-
chitects in the country would have contended for the ho-
nour of building the new Houses had they not thought that
in so short a period they could not do justice either to them-
selves or the country. The plan of Mr. Barry made a
beautiful and captivating picture, but it was in numerous
respects deficient. The Hon. Member went on to com-
plain that several rooms required by the original instruc-
tions were not provided for at all in Mr. Barry's plan, and
that many others were of much smaller dimensions than
were therein required. The very body of the House
was required to be capable of accommodating 420 Mem-
bers, instead of which Mr. Barry had made it. only ca-
pable of accommodating 360 ; and in one instance there
was a discrepancy of full 1,000 feet area between the in-
structions and Mr. Barry's plan, and yet the Commission-
ers had ventured to say that the plan in all main respects
corresponded with the instructions. But this was not all ;
the expense threatened to be tremendous, and infinitely
beyond the estimates. He well knew by experience how
much the estimates of architects usually fell short of the
actual expense. He could not forget that the estimate for
Buckingham Palace was only 300,000/., and yet the build-
ing, before it was completed, cost from 780,0001 to
800,000/. The first estimate given by Mr. Barry was
500,000/. How accurately this estimate was made, the
House might judge when they called to mind that five
weeks afterwards it was increased to 720,000/. Now he
was prepared to say, and he spoke on competent authority,
that the plan could not be executed under 1,300,000/., and
if all the ornaments, those ornaments which had so lured
the eyes of the Commissioners—were to be executed, the
cost would be more likely 1,800,000/., and this he would
undertake to prove before any Committee which the
House might think proper to appoint. Now the Com-
mittee had recommended that the plan of Mr. Barry
should be adopted, provided that the cost would not
materially exceed the estimate of 720,000/. The dis-
crepancies in the estimates were in some respects mon-
strous. Mr. Barry had calculated 4s. per foot for all those
beautiful ornaments of curious Gothic tracery with which
his design abounded ; whereas the facing of Henry the
Seventh's Chapel was worth not less than 1/. Is. per foot,
and the mere stone for St. Stephen's Chapel four shillings
per foot, without the workmanship. He had also to com-
plain that the plan was now nothing like that originally
chosen, that it had been altogether altered, and was no
more like it than a square was like a triangle, to prove
which assertion the Hon. Member referrred to the plans.
The towers proposed by that Gentlemen seemed monstrous.
Why, the large tower would be as high as the top of the
dome of St. Paul's, and the lower tower as high as the be-
ginning of that dome ; for what earthly purpose of beauty
or of utility he could not conceive. Another alteration he
much disapproved of. They were, it seemed, to have a
river terrace, and an embankment was to be carried out for
that purpose, and to what extent did the House imagine ?
Why, it was actually to block up within twelve feet three
of the arches of Westminster-bridge, thus taking posses-
of a very considerable portion of the bed of the river itself.
On these grounds, he thought they should commence de
novo. He should conclude, therefore, by moving an ad-
dress to his Majesty, praying that public competition for
plans for the rebuilding of the Houses of Parliament
should again take place, without limitation of style,
and according to a scale of expense to be previously fixed
by Parliament.
Mr. EWART seconded the motion.

Mr. H. TRACY defended himself from the charges
made against him of personal communications and corre-
spondence with Mr. Barry whilst he was competing. He
denied also the charge that the Commissioners had said that
the consideration of expenses would be productive of no
public advantage. The next allegation of the competitors
was, that the Commissioners were decided by the beauty of
the elevation rather than by the fitness of the design. That
he denied altogether. The prize was given to Mr. Barry
solely for the general design, and not for the elevation in
particular. The competitors further stated, that the de-
signs of Mr. Barry were in direct contradiction of the re-
solution of the Committee in 1833. It was true they were
not in exact accordance with them ; but what was Mr.
Barry bound to know of that Committee? His designs
were in accordance with the resolution of the Committee
of 1835, beyond which he could not have been expected
to go. It was stated moreover by them that the superfi-
cial area of Mr. Barry's plan comprehended less space than
that of the old Houses of Parliament ; in place of which,
there was a difference of 5,243 feet in his favour in the
Commons, and 6,054 in the Lords. The lobbies were
longer, there were a greater number of rooms, and the ac-
commodation altogether was greatly increased. He was
justified in saying that no objection to Mr. Barry's plan
existed on the part of the Commisioners. The House of
Commons and the House of Lords had sanctioned it, and
he believed it had met with the approbation of the greater
portion of the public.—(Hear.) Under these circum-
stances, he thought it would be unwise in the House to ac-
cede to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex, and a great injustice and injury to Mr. Barry.—( Hear.)
Mr. ESTCOURT felt himself called on to declare that

if the Hon. Member for Middlesex should persevere in his
motion he would support him, that the country might have
every opportunity which an extension of time could afford
to enable it to attain a better plan.
Sir J. C. HOBH OUSE said that so many complaints
had been made against the chosen plan and the Commis-
sioners that it was a difficult task to recollect them all, and
he would only attempt to reply to a few that seemed most
deserving of attention. The last complaint made by the
petitioners was, that the Commissioners had followed their
own judgment in the selection of a design, and had not ap-
plied to more competent persons for information ; but such
a course would have left them open to the charge of
thereby avowing the fallacy of their own judgment, encou-
raging a rivalry of interested opinions, and showing well the
incompetency of their own. He was, however, happy to
say that the result had approved the wisdom of their choice.
Their judgment in favour of Mr. Barry's plan had not
only been unanimous among themselves, but it had sub-
sequently been approved by his Majesty, by the two
Houses of Parliament, and he thought he might fairly
say by the whole body of the disinterested and en-
lightened public.—(Hear, hear.) Another charge brought
against the Commissioners was that of precipitancy in their
proceedings. He thought that in a case of this delicate
and important nature, it was necessary for the credit
of the parties that every part of the transaction should be
free from suspicion as well as injustice. He should, therefore,
beg the attention of the House while lie proved to them that
nothing had been done without due deliberation. The
Hon. Gentleman then recapitulated the proceedings taken

- _ -
in the appointment of the first Committee on the 2d of
March, 1835, and the subsequent Commission for the pa-
tient inspection and consideration of the designs. He
argued that the best proof of the fairness of the formation
of the first Committee, and their openness to the influence
of public opinion, was, that they, after NI deliberation,
bowed to that opinion, and, on the 3d of June, entirely re-
versed the course of proceeding they had at first determined
on, thereby throwing the designs open to public conme-
tition, and the decision of competent Commissioners. He
detailed the various steps taken—the address of the Com-
mittee to the Crown, June 15—the appointment of the
Commission, July 14—to insure and impartial and judici-
ous selection of a plan—and stated that the Commissioners,
when they had fixed on Mr. Barry's as superior in appear-
ance to all the others, ordered a rough estimate to be pre-
pared, which was the subject of several meetings and discus-
sions previous to its formal approbation by the Commissioners,
and to the drawing up of the Report, which (we under-
stood the Honourable Member to say) was in a great
degree drawn up by his Honourable Friend the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer. As to the kind of objections they
had to meet, and the critics they were required to please,
he would beg leave to read a page of a criticism on their
report. This singular article was a portion of a pamphlet
or catalogue distributed at the door of the National Gal-
lery, where the designs were exhibited. [The Honourable
Member here read from page 19, amidst considerable
laughter, several paragraphs, of which we could hear
enough to understand that the labours and tastes of the
Commissioners were therein placed in a very ludicrous
point of view.] Such was the manner in which their gra-
tuitous cares were rewarded by those who, it appeared, were
personally interested in decrying the result of their most
mature and unbiassed deliberations. [The Right Honour-
able Gentleman then read various passages from the evi-
dence given before the Committee by the Commissioners,
with respect to the reasons for their choice, and touching
the improvements which the plan No. 64 (Mr. Barry's) ad-
mitted of, showing that the Commissioners had openly
stated from the first that they did not intend to exclude the
idea of improvement from the plan they might adopt—
that, on the contrary, they stated they did not expect to
obtain a perfect plan, and that they would cheerfully
receive and apply any suggestions, from whatever quarter
they came, which would enable them to erect a better
building than they might accomplish unassisted. For his
own part he saw no reason why they should not receive
valuable practical assistance in every step of their progress,
and he was sure the great object they had all so much at
heart would be in a much fairer course of fulfilment than
it could possibly be from an obstinate perseverance in an
opposite exclusive line of proceeding. He knew, however,
the difficulty-of pleasing everybody in a case of this nature,
and he might, without fear of contradiction, at once assert
that it was impossible.—( Hear, hear.) The most talented
and perfect plan that could be devised by earthly architect
would still be subject to such criticism and raillerLas they
had just heard a specimen of. He believed that even if a
plan of Archimedes or of Vitruvius had been selected, or.
to come to the present day, suppose Mr. Wilkins's plan had
been chosen—( Hear)—it would be impossible thereby to give
general contentment.—(Laughter.) He had heard many
speculations, and very various opinions, respecting the pre-
ference which ought to be given to Gothic or Grecian, civil
or ecclesiastical, architecture for the Houses of Parliament
but he and the Commissioners had the satisfaction to reflect
that there was not a second opinion of the superior excel-
lence and beauty of the design above all others which they
had selected for their approbation and reward.—(Hear.)
Mr. HAWES said that the arguments of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Middlesex had not been at all an-
swered. Certain rules had been laid down and certain
offices and other apartments directed.to be included in the
plans. To these rules the other architects had confined
themselves, but Mr. Barry had disregarded them. He ad-
mitted that the facade of Mr. Barry's plan was very beau-
tiful ; but when the sections of the plan were applied to the,
point of sight the repose and grandeur of the facade dis-
appeared. The first estimate sent in by Mr. Barry was
500,0001. ; but this he had since increased to 750,0001.
Sir R. PEEL said that in reviewing the arguments of
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, it should be borne in
mind that that Hon. Gentleman meditated a change in the
site upon which the Houses of Parliament were to be
erected ; and, if this were the case, surely it could not be
necessary to have a competition for new plans until the site
was first fixed upon.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUME said that the change of the site was no part
of his motion.
Sir R. PEEL knew that ; but had not the Hon. Mem-
ber proposed to alter the site ? And, having done so, why
invite new competition until that point was disposed of?
Another objection which struck him very forcibly against
opening the subject was, that it would be extremely diffi-
cult to find Commissioners to act again. He knew that he
for one had made up his mind never to be a Commissioner
again—(A laugh)—because, if, after deciding on the mat-
ter submitted to them, and after inviting competition
amongst professional architects, their whole proceedings
must be set aside, and their decision quashed, and a new
competition invited, he did not think that it would at all
become any. man to act as a Commissioner a second time.
The next thing that he would deprecate the most would
be,. his being the successful competitor.—(A laugh.) In
speaking of Mr. Barry and his plan he was perfectly un-
prejudiced, for he did not originally approve of the prin-
ciple of competition. He thought it proper that the
Crown should select its own plan, and its own architect
to carry it into execution. As to the style, he thought
that was very properly selected to correspond with West,
minster Abbey and Westminster Hall, and did credit to the
taste of the Commissioners. The Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex admitted that when he first came to consider thif
subject, he was utterly ignorant upon it ; but that he bad since
been able to embrace all its varieties and difficulties—that
in short, he had become a Pericles or a Leo X.--(Loo,ghter.)
With respect to the point of expense, that was no part of
the subject before the House. The question now was
whether or not the decision of the Committee should be
acted upon or set aside—whether or not, in fact, Mr. Barrii
plan should be adopted. If the present motion were
adopted it would strike a blow at competition, and would
postpone to an indefinite period the building of this great
national work. He was sure that it would also be inju-
rious to professional architects themselves, and that they
would rue the day they bad the misfortune to be invited to
the competition.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WYSE said that it would be most unjust to Mr.
Barry to open the question again to competition, as it would
afford all the architects in the country an opportunity 0
working up the materials of Mr. Barry's plan into new(
plans of their own.
Mr. HUME said that, seeing the sense of the House
against him, he would withdraw his motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
POST OFFICE BILL.

On the motion that this Bill be now read a second time,
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he had been for a locig
time endeavouring to procure a most important return,
which he thought ought to have been produced before alio
Bill was read a second time. The return which he required
would show how many days the different Commissioners
had sat, and how many hours per diem. He wished to
know if that return was likely to be laid on the table of the
House, and when.
Mr. F. BARING could assure the Hon. Member that
no delay had been suffered to take place in preparing the
return ; and the only reason why it had not already bee°
laid on the table was, that the Hon. Member had enmity'
bered it with so many details, as to make it very difficult to
be furnished.

Mr. WALLACE then rose to speak to the question
before the House, namely, the second reading of a Bill for,
placing the Post-office under efficient controul. He wool('
begin by adverting to the first report of the Commissioners
of Inquiry, which recommended an important mercantile
regulation, namely, the transmission of prices current at a
small rate of postage. This, he hoped, would be effected'
the question, however, chiefly before the House was as to
the adoption of a Board of Commissioners in preference to
the administration of the Post-office under a Postmaster"
General. It had been contended elsewhere that this 080
had been agreed to be adopted without due consideration'
He considered it his duty to remind the House that Cool;
missioners had sat on this question at different periods, and
all of them airiVed at the same conclusion. There were
Commissions in 1787, 1797, 1809, 1829, and 1835, all Af
which recommended that the office of Postmaster-General
should be placed under Commission. As the conduct
of the Sub-Commissioners, Captain Evans and Mr. Gar'
diner, had been animadverted upon elsewhere, he 111!5'
bound to say that he believed they had fulfilled their
duty with great zeal and integrity. There were many
points to which he wished to call the attention of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. The first was the reduction
of postage on letters. Lord Spencer and Lord Ashburton,
had both expressed their opinion in favour of such a re
duction. And the latter Noble Lord had declared that A
better application of 500,0001. of the revenue could not I'4
made than a reduction of postage to that amount.
would greatly benefit the country without the revenue olti;
mately sustaining any loss. The correspondence in t't
country would be so much promoted that an equal anion°
of revenue would be created. In the city of London .the,
utmost possible use had been derived from the establit
ment of the two-penny and three-penny postage system. f
was not, however, generally known that this description 0r
post, in point of fact, was available for the carriage of 13°.4
eels as well as letters. It would be of great benefit if th,le
system were established throughout the whole country, la
parcels being limited to a weight of four ounces. He w°u,
strongly press this point upon the attention of theGGovern,
ment. There was another description of postage which rall
quired consideration, that of ship letters. At present ae
letters going by private ships were charged double posti.l:o
for being carried across the sea. He begged the attend

of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to this point. Again,
it was often the practice to charge a penny postage in ad-
dition to the general postage charged on a letter ; but this
had been declared by the Courts to be contrary to law. He
wished to draw attention to this fact ; that in London let-
t ‘rs byday the General Post-office arrived at one hour of the
only, and at one hour of the day only were general
letters sent away from that establishment. The general
letters arrived and were distributed about eight or nine
G o clock in the morning ; and let the letters be put into the
eneral Post-office here at whatever hour in the day they
might, it was not until eight o'clock in the evening that
• they were sent away, to the very great inconvenience of the
e°l-wtry. It was a proceeding altogether unjustifiable, and
OP.O which was not known to be pursued in any other part
tothe kingdom. It ought not and could not be permitted
continue. There were six general deliveries every day
from the post-office at Liverpool, besides the penny-post
letters. In that large community, perhaps second only to
London, there was no difficulty whatever in delivering the
general letters with those of the penny-post. The same
thing was done at Manchester. But in London the
post-office had been allowed to be conducted for half a
century without any sort of alteration or improvement
whatever, He could find out no reason why the mails
should not be sent out of London at eight or nine
eeloele in the morning, but that it suited the conveni-
enie of those connecte with the establishment that they
should remain till eight o'clock in the evening—that was
for twelve or fifteen hours after being put into the post.
Perhaps it was not known to the Chancellor of the Ex-
ebenaer that the clerks in the General Post-office were em-
ployed only for a few hours in the day. The great proportion
of them began duty abont a quarter to six in the morning,
and continued entil nine, and from nine till five in the
evening they were their own masters, most of them being em-
ployed as merchants' clerks, attornies' clerks, and such like.
In short, instead of their being public servants, they were
servants to any one who chose to employ them. This ac-
counted at once for the detention of the mails. This was
the best information be had been able to obtain upon the
hject, though, as he had on former occasions stated, it
was almost impossible, by any means he had been able to
to devise, to get an accurate and complete return of what
went on in the establishment at St. Martin's-le-grand. Ano-
ther subject of complaint was the circuitous routes which
letters often went. This was most unjustifiable. Some
letters were sent to places eighty or ninety miles off, and
'were charged accordingly, although their places of destine-
-tinn were not distant more than six or seven miles. Nay,
be knew of instances where letters were sent eighty miles,
although the distance of their destination was only four
miles from the Post-office. Yet the postage for the
whole distance was charged.—(Hear, hear.) The parties
therefore, not only suffered by the delay, but were addition-
lly taxed in the bargain. This it seems depended solely
upon the fiat of the Postmaster-General, or of his secretary.
40 a petition from Great Yarmouth it was stated that they
144 only had letters sent round in all directions, but that
the Postmaster-General had positively refused to redress
the grievance. He had told them, " I will tax you 9d.
instead of 4d.," thus making himself equal to King, Lords,
and Commons. And why ? For no other reason than that
he was Postmaster-General, and willed it to be so. It was
with firm, "sic volo, sic jubeo"—"l am Postmaster-Gene-
. and I have a right to do it."—(Hear, hear.) He would
recommend the great Yarmouth petition most strongly to
the attention of his Majesty's Government. He begged
!,0 say that, in the observations he felt it his duty to make,
tie had no intention whatever to reflect upon any person.
It was the system which he complained of, and wished to
Se reformed. He would avail himself of this opportunity
of saying, that of Lord Lichfield, the present Post-
master-General, he had seen nothing but what was ex-
ceedingly creditable to the Noble Lord. He entirely
denied that that Noble Lord had an accurate know-
ledge of his office. The Noble Lord knew, no doubt, as
much as any of his predecessors ; but in the short space of
time he had held his appointment, it was impossible he could
have acquired the necessary information. He (Mr. Wal-
lace) was most ready, however, to admit that the Noble
Lord was an active, zealous, and intelligent blic officer,
anxious to perform his duties, and if he didpu not do so to
the extent which he (Mr. Wallace) conceived he ought to
do, the fault did not rest with him. He would now call
the attention of the House to another part of the system.
When he on a former occasion expressed a wish that let-
ters should be delivered on a Sunday, he was accused of a
leish to desecrate the Sabbath. Now what was the fact ?
Clerks were employed at the Post-office every Sunday to sort out the letters : but the mail-coaches were allowed to
g 0 out of town empty. What he contended for was, that
the letters so sorted and ready should be put into the mails,
and not be allowed to remain in the Post-office for forty-
eight hours. The mail coaches were not only prevented
taking letters, but also newspapers ; the consequence was,
tllat
expresses were employed to carry the papers to Bar-
and other places about ten or fifteen miles out of
and then put into the mail-coaches. Letters, as it
xas well known,• e also often forwarded in this way.
Who would advocate the were
such a system as this ? But would
House believe that ie Post-office positively employed
another description of persons to do the duty at Barnet,
Hounslo, and other towns, on Sunday, which this system
_rteoctessarily created. So that instead of lessening the la-
ir on Sunday they increased it ; besides putting the edi-
v(vr of papers to a great expense for running expresses
they must and would do. . Foreign mails it should
also be borne in mind, were allowed to go on a Sunday.
toThe editors of papers had frequently applied to be allowed
put p into the mails, instead of being forced to hire
ex presses to carry them to the adjacent towns, but permis-
sion bid •1
always been refused to them. There was another
circumstance connected with this subject, to which he
liexquested the particular attention of the Chancellor of the
, ',l:,equer, because it not only referred to a matter of great
tPubltc convenience but one whicla in some degree was con-
iected with his own office. He alluded to the system of
their letters, so that they should be secured going to
That
s r place of destination when they contained money.
Lees
' and worked well for three years—( Hear, hear, from
Teveral Irish Members)—not costing the Post-office
lmore than 1001. a year. It was put an end to by the
the English
pof
.Richmond when he consolidated the Irish with
2130,000 r galish establishment. The effect was that
year in bank-notes used to pass safely to
thleir destination, which did not now pass safely
rough the Post-office. Temptations were afforded to per.
tconnected with the Post-office to break open the seals,
ract the contents, and destroy the letters. Immense
has c'ney was thus lost, and the plunder never discovered. It
in fact an encouragement to Post-office thieving. The
Stlstem of negotiation ought to be establiseed throughout the
three kingdoms. There was no reason why it should not,except
that it would occasion a little additional trouble. With regard
to the number of hours the Post-office in London was kept
°Pen, the time was curtailed most extraordinarily. No let-
ter
oclo
er
could d be put into the General
P ffi ost-oce after sevent
in the evening, nor before eight in the morning. Even
theee vy receiving-boxes were shut. A person might o to
General Post-office, and find many ladies and gentle gmen,
tradesmen and working-men, coming with their letters after
the prescribed hour of seven, when, too late for that night's
mail, they had not the consolation of even being allowed to
the
their letters into the box, but must repeat their visit in
morning. What reason could there be for this ? No
!letn ason, but a vulgar prejudice at the Post-office, which made
think that a general post letter was a better thing
dilllaari a twopenny post letter ; whereas common sense saw no
Terence between them. They were both letters, and nothing
ore- Put the Twopenny post was open at all hours of the
day and night (Sundays included), as they ought to be. If
those letters were safe, so would General-post letters be
safe too. If the mails were sent at all hours of the day, it
-irould be a great convenience to the public. This could,
Ives sure, be done, while at the.same time the rate of
Postage ought to be reduced. It would be proper not to
charge more than 3d. upon any letter sent a distance of 50
miles ; for 100 miles 4d. ; 200 miles 6d. ; and the highest
rate of postage ought not to be more than Bd. or 9d. at
most. He could not understand why letters ought not to
be sent by the stage as well as the mail-coaches ; for, ac-
cording to a return he had, it appeared that no stage-coach
travelled as slow as the mails.—( Hear, hear.) He had to
call the attention of the House to the packet-service. Ac-
cording to the recommendation of the Commissioners, two
Bills were to be brought, one to enable Government to
transfer packets to the Admiralty ; that expectation, he
believed, would not be found to be correct, for this reason,
that it was known that a second Bill was not necessary,
e Treasury having sufficient provisions to act upon the
suggestions of the Commissioners. The report of the Com-
missioners proved that there had been a loss, not as he had
stated upon a former occasion, of 800,0001., but not less than
from 1,200,000/. to 1,300,000/. For such a loss as this
!,:!!'elY some one ought to be responsible.—( Hear, hear.)
i'nere had been, instead of a profit, a large annual loss oath at
Holyhead and Liverpool. At Holyhead station
there had been a degree of fraud, carlessness, and plunder
he had was disgraceful to any country. In a petition which
,ad seen that day, but which was not vet presented, it
as alleged that an agent in Liverpool had, in the name of
ttne Post-office, run in debt 6,000/. more than he had assets
1:3 Pmore aY.—(Hear.) He did not think that anything could
e objectionable than the system of intimidation that
Prevailed at the Post-office. It had prevailed to such an
extent that the captains of packets, and those who supplied
the stores, were afraid to make any complaint. Now, with
regard to responsibility he had to remark that the Under
Secretary for the Post-office denied that he was respon-
-B,s es
I,tle, while the very acts of that Secretary went to show
tsltionerrpon
a sibility. Mr. Freeling's letter to the Commis-
_er s of Enquiry was refuted in the most complete man-
_aYs b_y Captain Evans and Mr. Gardiner. Mr. Freeling
is not responsible, because lie did not visit the
Packet stations ; but the Commissioners proved that he had

visited these stations several times, Holyhead especially
upon seven different occasions, and a charge of 6791. was
made for travelling expenses. Did not this show that that
gentleman was the responsible person ? He also complained
of the system of mulcting the inferior and hardworking
officers ; that was a system which could not be counte-
nanced. In the packet department there had been, from
first to last, a general system of jobbing. Although
1,000,0001., or 800,0001., or 900,000/. was expended on
the twenty-four packets employed by the Post-office,
if they were sold to-morrow, they would not bring
more than 150,000/. The Honourable Member exhi-
bited a plan of the town of Cheltenham, for the in-
spection of Members, for which they, he believed,
would see there was no pretext for continuing the
impost of the penny-post upon the good people of that
place, which he was happy to say had long been disconti-
nued in Brighton and in Ipswich: From the statement he
had made to-night, he trusted he had shown the absolute
necessity that existed for the attention of the House being
drawn to the present defective mode of administering the
affairs of this great establishment through the Postmaster-
General. He knew it was proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman to make one of the responsible officers of that
establishment capable of holding a seat in that House ; to
such a proposition he, however, must say he should feel re-
pugnance. The complaints against the present system
were loud from all parts of the United Kingdom. There
was now a thorough conviction in the minds of most men
that there ought to be an end of a government of this
great establishment, by persons capable of sacrificing the
interests of the public, and its servants in the office, to
whim or to partiality ; and that it ought to be conducted
by men of practical knowledge and business habits.—
(Hear, hear.) To the Bill of the Right Hon. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer on this subject, he must say he
would give his full and complete support, coming as it did
recommended by the material improvements it proposed to
introduce into the administration, as well as recommended by
the knowledge he had of the patriotic motives and the anxiety
for the public interest which were so conspicuous in the
Right Hon. Mover of that measure. The news also which
had hut this day arrived from France, on the subject of
the adjustment which had been happily come to between
the French and English Governments as to the future in-
tercourse by the post between the two countries, encou-
raged him to believe that facilities were now afforded for
effecting important improvements in respect to our Conti-
nental communications. We were, it appeared, in future
to receive our letters without the restriction as to weight
and thickness, and the letters were to be sent over at a
stated price each, whatever the weight, provided they did
not exceed a certain fixed weight as in this country.—(Load
cheers.) It was worthy of the people of the two greatest
nations on the earth, and closely united by mutual interest
and friendly relations, to adopt such a course of just and
prudent policy in their reciprocal intercourse, whether
friendly or commercial. He would conclude by moving the
resolutions of which he had formally given notice, though
he believed from the communication he had had with the
Right Hon. Gentleman, it would be unnecessary he should
take the sense of the House upon them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, speak-
ing across the table in a lo iv tone, which prevented us from
hearing him distinctly, suggested, as we understood, to the
Hon. Member to withdraw his resolutions, on the ground
that they would prove a serious obstruction to the measures
in contemplation for the removal of many of the evils of
which he complained.

Mr. WALLACE said be should be sorry to persist in
any course that would have the effect of obstructing measures
so valuable as those to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
alluded. Therefore he at once consented to withdraw his
resolutions.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thanked
the Hon. Gentleman for the course he had taken, and in-
formed him that his resolutions would have been a great im-
pediment in the way of the proposed Bills. The House
would not expect him, at this late hour of the night, to fol-
low the Hon. Gentleman through the whole of the details
of his speech ; at the same time he hoped the Hon. Gentle-
man would not attribute his not referring to those details to
any want of respect for himself, and still less to any indif-
ference towards the important questions brought under the
consideration of the House. He entirely agreed with the
Hon. Gentleman as to the first proposition laid down by him.
He admitted that the present constitution of the Post-office of
the country was indefensible. It appeared to him that a
great office of administration like this, or a great revenue
department was not properly constituted in being placed in
the hands of one officer, who retired from the office when-
ever a political change in the Government. took place..
Such an arrangement must have a tendency more or less
to throw the administration of the establishment into the
hands of subordinate persons. Within a short period'of
time not less than five noblemen had held the office of Post-
master-general. The result of a system of that description
must be an administration of a nature that ought not to ex-
ist in a great revenue department. He was gratified in
hearing the Hon. Gentleman render justice to the great
merits of the Noble Lord who at present held the office of
Postmaster-general (Lord Lichfield.) But lie would go
back to the administration of the Duke of Richmond, and
rest his disapproval of the present administration of the
Post-office on the result of the exertions of that Noble
Duke. He was convinced that in the perfect know-
ledge he displayed of the principles on which the Post-office
department ought to he administered, in the indefatigable
industry he exhibited, in the pains he took to do all
himself that he could do, in- the general ability that lie
showed, he had never been equalled ; yet it was impossible
to say that even the administration of the Duke of Rich-
mond was a species of administration that they would wish
to continue of a great revenue department. It was evi-
dent, however, that if any one could have succeeded in it,
the Duke of Richmond could. These were the general
views he entertained of the subject, and he thought they
were sufficiently forcible to induce the House to read the
Bill which he had submitted to them a second time. All
concurred in this, that the period had arrived when they
must not. only contemplate an alteration, but endeavour to
effect a real improvement. Such was the object of the Bill
he now proposed. There were matters of detail of course
to be embraced in the after discussions of the Bill, but they
were matters rather for a Committee tha❑ for the House,
while the Bill was in its present stage. He asked them
now to read the Bill a second time—to approve the gene-
ral principle—that a mere political officer, acting at the
head of this department, was as inapplicable to it as such an
officer would be to the Customs, the Excise, or the Stamp
department.—( Hear, hear.) As to the patronage he would
not make the °dicers entirely independent of the Treasury.
The Right Hon. Gentleman defended to a certain extent
the packet system as at present established. He would
say, however, that the department of St. Martin's-le-Grand
ought not to have been entrusted with the management of
the steam packets : the Admiralty was the proper power for
governing them. He did not mean to recommend that the
Admiralty should determine at what hour the packets should
sail ; that was an arrangement which should remain with the
Post-office ; but all relating to the administration of the
general affairs of the packets would be more safely left to
the Admiralty than to the Post•office. The Hon. Gentle-
man had alluded to the French convention. He thought it
a subject for much satisfaction that that convention had been
agreed to, for it put an end to a very rude and inconvenient
system.—(Hear.) He believed that the two countries, in
making this arrangement, which had been done with perfect
cordiality on both sides, and in a very liberal feeling on the
part of the French Government, which was certainly reci-
procated by ours, had commenced a good system of commu-
nication, which would not be bounded merely by the limits
of France, but would extend itself over the whole continent
of Europe.—(Hear.) Belgium, Holland, and no doubt the
other powers, would in time show themselves willing to
adopt the same principle. But an observation had been
made on the irregularity with which this treaty had been
carried into effect. He did not mean to make any com-
plaint in the slightest degree with reference to the manner
in which the convention had been acted on by the French
Government ; but for that irregularity, such as it was, this
country was in no way accountable. It was referable en-
tirely to the French authorities, who had their own agent
here to make arrangements to carry the treaty into effect.
An ordonnance, it appeared, was issued before the arrange-
ments were complete for the convention to be carried into
effect. The French authorities were aware that it was
necessary to come to Parliament on the subjeet—that Par-
liament should sanction one of the Bills they knew was
necessary ; but they issued the ordonnance it appeared
while their own negotiator, their own agent, was on his
return to Paris, and did not know of the issue of the
ordonnance till he arrived at Paris. In the course of this
day, however, the direction bad been given to which the
Hon. Gentleman had adverted, and be trusted that no
further inconvenience would be experienced. He hoped
the House would pass this Bill, and he had no doubt that
those points which had been thrown out would not escape
the attention of the House.

Mr: HUME inquired of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer what he thought of the propriety of transmitting prices
current free of postage ?
Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he felt the importance of the suggestion, but he feared that
great inconvenience would arise from sanctioning the free
postage of every publication that assumed to be a price
current.

Mr. M. PHILIPS suggested the pro?riety of sending
on without delay to Liverpool and Manchester letters de-
livered early in the morning. He beggel to say also that
it would be a great convenience to the m3rcantile interests,
if foreign prices current were allowed to be transmitted free
of postage.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was under consideration
to abate the inconvenience usually felt from the detention
of foreign letters in London during the whole day ; it was
not, however, without difficulty that such an arrangement

could be made. When the Bill came into Committee, he
would explain why it was that the Commissioners were
strongly of opinion that a person at the head of the Post-
office department should have a seat in the House. He
anticipated considerable public advantage from the transfer
of steam-packets from .the Post-office to the Admiralty.
He was of opinion that much benefit would result to the
public, when the steam-packets were provided for out of the
navy estimates, from the strict scrutiny to which those
annual votes were subjected in this House.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that as the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had last. spoke had stated that on the present
occasion he should not enter upon the reasons why he sup-
ported this Bill, but should defer them until it went into
Committee, he should also be content to let the subject pass
at present, after merely entering his protest against what he
must consider the very unconstitutional principle involved in
the Bill.

After a few words from Colonel ANSON and another
HON. MEMBER,
Colonel SIBTHORP spoke against the Bill, and de=
Glared his intention of dividing the House upon every future
stage of its progress.
Lord LO WTHER approved of the Bill. He believed
there were in existence a vast variety of abuses in the ma-
nagement of the Post-office Department, which, when the
proposed Commission was appointed, would be speedily got
rid of.

The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday next.
POSTAGE ON NEWSPAPERS BILL.

This Bill went through Committee.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (SCOTLAND)

BILL.

In answer to a question from Capt. GORDON,
Mr. P. M. STEWART said that it was not his inten-
tion to press this Bill during the present session.
Mr. LYNCH obtained leave to bring in a Bill to enable
tenants for life of estates in Ireland to make improvements
and charge inheritance with the monies expended on such
improvements.
The House adjourned at two o'clock.

ROUSE OF LORDS, JULY 21.

The Lord CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at five o'clock.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.

A Message from the Commons brought up the Hunger-
ford and Lambeth Suspension Bridge Bill and the Swansea
Harbour Bill.
TRBMOUTHA .RAILWAY HARBOUR.

•: The- Marquis of. LUarRNDERRY laid on the table
the Report of the C. ,LIRIMEe on the Tremoutha Railway
Harbour Bill.

The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from
Northumberland against the appropriation of the revenues
of the See of Durham ; also a petition from the Provincial
Synod of Aberdeen, expressing their strong objection to the
Scotch Universities Bill ; and a petition praying that the
interests of the Church of England might be preserved in any
measure introduced for the regulation of marriages from the
Archdeaconry of Exeter.
Viscount MELBOURNE presented petitions from con-
gregations of Protestant Dissenters praying for the redress
of grievances.