The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-19 00:00:00

SUN, LONDON, FRiDAV, FEBitUAltit 16, 18:36.

nianjnig,litti?e, as .an pxperimentZ, and, should ER:
I rtOn'l. iiietiej, the House would be at liberty to dis.
pose of it as:they, virsect, There were Aome parts of the
plan .fiu
.jpnpy jips4o.stiind:. Oyloul.l it be neces-
sary tinit tho etei4ki tiitehllane the whole
iiigut, when, perhaps, there would not be the least occasion
for them? For instance, in the present Session, there were
not less than nine. or ten days on, which no division took place.
A division thigiit ditife than two Mem-
tierg.rt!mained in the House; . Were tie four Clerks to wait for
contingencies of this kind.; hi additinit to their other labours,
and that-, too; ? lllueli time would
be lost by Members leaVirig the House to go itito, the lobbies,
in conseqUence of the sinallnesi of the doors.. There ought
to. be some antlidrity Vested With discretion o itiodifying the
detail's autth a plan. there some nights on which no divi-
sion could be expected. Upon occasions of this kind
were the clerks to be kept in attendance, on Wednesdays, for
instance ?
Mr. OROTE hoped an opportunity would be afforded of
giving the plan a fair trial. With respect to the smallness of
the doors, that inconvenience might be easily removed, and
four clerks might be appointed solely for the purpose of this
plan. A vote of the House would be necessary for that purpose.
Whether the numbers on a division were large or small, the
business ought to go on in the same way.
Sir R. INGLIS said a plan of this kind was first Wei in
January, 1834, and there was a mistake in the very first di-
vision.

Mr. O'CONNELL said the plans were not the same.
Upon the occasion alluded to there nas only one error, and
there were no clerks then. He was often surprised at the in..
convenient way in which the divisions formerly took place. It
occasioned great loss of time. Upon one occasion he recol-
lected 319 Members going out, while only eleven remained in
the House. Would it not have been much more convenient if
the eleven went forth ? Against any inconvenience that might
arise from this plan they would have this great convenience,
that constituents would know how their Representatives voted,
and whether they were present.
Dr. BOWRING considered this plan a great improvement
on that of last Session. It was, however, tried under very un-
favourable circumstances, for there were no clerks. The Right
Hon. Baronet alluded to the inconvenience of four clerks being
obliged to be in attendance all night. The Members of that
House, as tellers, would be put to the like inconvenience. The
plan now proposed would not produce one tenth of the errors
that took place under the other plans.
Mr. E WART approved of the plan. There might be errors
at first, but accuracy would be ultimately attained, and the sys-
tem would become an excellent one.
Colonel THOMPSON said much time might be saved by
having three doors leading from each side of the House into
the lobbies.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said it was vain to expect any-
thing like a perfect system under which errors would not
occur. These errors could not lead to any serious inconve-
nience. It was pretty generally known from experience, and
from a knowledge of their principles, how Hon. Members
would vote upon most questions. There was a general con-
viction throughout the country that the votes now given by
the Representatives of the people were correct, and in con-
formity to the principles they professed. There were mis-
takes under the present plan. If they adopted a new one let it
be consistent with common sense, and afford a fair prospect of
improvement.
Mr. HUME was really surprised at what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Baronet, as he was the last person from whom
he should have expected opposition or objection to any plan
for ensuring the publication to the constituencies of the votes
of Hon. Members of that House.—( Hear.)
Sir J. HOBHOUSE explained. He trusted he could ap-
peal to the recollection of the House that the character which
he had there would certainly contradict the supposition of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex. What he ( Sir J. Hobhouse)
meant was that mistakes were seldom made in the accounts of
the votes given by Hon. Members in that House, and that it
was pretty generally known, and that, too, with accuracy,
what was the general character of the votes.
Mr. HUME was happy to find that he had misunderstood
the Right Hon.. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet, how-
ever, had observed that a perfect system could not be expected.
Now he (Mr. Hume) thought that the plan proposed was
certainly more near perfection than that which was now pur-
sued, and that it was not very probable that mistakes could
arise if the suggestions made in the plan were generally car-
ried into effect.
The resolutions were then put from the Chair, and agreed to.
RUSSIA.
Lord D. STUART rose to postpone the motion of which
he had given notice with respect to certain papers relating to
the affairs of Russia until to-morrow (this day), on which day
he had been informed by his Majesty's Ministers no business
of paramount importance was likely to be brought before the
House. He would now state for what papers he should move;
they would be these :—The treaty of the Bth of July, 1833,
commonly called the treaty of Unkiar Skelessi ; the treaty of
St. Petersburgh of the 29th of January, 1834 • any commu-
nications which have passed between the British Government
and that of Russia on the subject of those treaties ; and any
correspondence between those Governments on the subject of
the remonstrances of Great Britain to Russia with respect to
Poland.

THE LAY ASSOCIATION.—(IRELAND.)
Mr. SHE IL rose pursuant to notice, to move for a return
of the number of Bills filed for the recovery of tithes in Ire-
land from the Ist of August, 1835, to the Ist of January,
1836 ; of all processes issued out of his Majesty's Court. of
.Exchequer ,in Ireland, in the ease of Knox
.v. Goven and
others, and of all orders and affidavits made in such cause ;
and for copies of the order or orders made by his Majesty's
Government in 1823, 1825, and 1833, respecting the employ-
ment of the police in the service and execution of writs, and
of the signatures attached to such orders. The Hon. and
Learned Member had moved for these returns in order to
draw the attention of the House, and, through the House, the
attention of the public, to some new facts, which, in his (Mr.
.Sheil's) opinion, tended to place the question of tithes in Ire-
land in a new and conspicuous light. He wished to make the
House aware of the nature and character of the proceedings of
a society recently formed in Ireland, calling itself the Lay As-
sociation, for the purpose of protecting the property of the
clergy of the Established Church.---(Hear.) The Lay Asse_
'ci4ion be ( Mr. Sheil) considered as nothing more nor less than
branch of Orangeism, as he should be able to show.--( Ironical
cheers from the Opposition.) Perhaps it would be more sa-
tisfactoiy to the House if lie were immediately, to read from
the ;Standcird newspaper the advertisement published by the
,ociety in question. (The Hon. and Learned Member then
irocceded to read from the paper in question.) The society
'as called " The Lay ASsociation for aiding the Clergy of
is Church of Ireland in protecting the property of the
-lurch ;" and he read in the list of subscribers, first, that the
•easurer was the Earl of Roden.—( Cheers from the Op-
ioaition, and laughter from the Ministerial benches.) The
incidence was odd ; but no doubt it was-fortuitous.—( Laugh-
ir.) Then there were the names of the Earl of Enniskillen—
Renewed cheers from the Opposition)—of the Earl of Ban.
(nn--(Cheers)—of Lord Lorton—.(Loud cheers)--of Lord
lunham,—(Cheers.) He certainly did not find the name of
te• Hon. and Gallant Colonel opposite (Colonel Perceval, we
-est:me), but he did find the name of another Hon. and Gal-
nt Colonel (Colonel' Verner) who sat on the Hon. and Gal-
Member's left—his sinister side—(Laughter)—as a sub-
.-,riber' of 2Q1.-4 Hear.) Now what he (Mr. Shell) would ask
'as, Whether such proceedings on the part of the Orangemen
" Itcland were legitimate? For his own part he considered
iat it was illicit for them to lend assistance for the recovery of
Litrs, which, however, be admitted to be legal in themselves.—
Filear.) But'hc thought that organization such as this was a
iry bad substitute for that impartial and legitimate mode of
effeeting an adjustment which was now admitted on all hands
to be the best for Ireland.—( Hear, hea-. ) When the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite came into power, had he not
been the first to say
.that the time was come for a change
in the system by which tithes were collected in Ireland?
[lad not the then Secretary for Ireland declared it as his opi-
rion that tithes ought not to be levied by a British army ?
And, in such a state of things, ought those who had supported
the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet, and who then
conceived that they had cause for supporting it, now to have
formed a society the objects to be comprehended by which
were such as no man who wished well to Ireland ought to
contemplate without having serious doubts excited in his
mind ? The first statement which he had to make was, that
since the first of August in the last year no less than 617 bills
in equityliad been filed by the Lay Association for the recovery
of tithes in Ireland. It would be said, why should such Bills not
be filed ? His answer would be, that there were already two
modes of proceeding, economical and certain, which could
.have been resorted to without the necessity of having recourse
to the expensive and oppressive medium of a Court of
Equity. Tithes up to the amount of ten pounds might
have been and still might be• recovered by civil bills, before
Magistrates ; but the Lay Association had preferred the ex-
pensive course which they had pursued. He should produce
two strong examples, in individual cases, of the spirit in which
these frightful proceedings bad been carried on. The first
was the case of the Very Rev. Dilworth Holmes against
Robert Hodges. A bill was filed 'in the name of Mr. Holmes
against Hodges—that would not be disputed ; and it would
further appear that the bill was filed in his name by Mr.
Smith, an attorney of great talent, who had filed a great num-
ber of similar bills on the part of the Society called.the Lay
Association. He (Mr. Shell) begged to be understood as
not desiring to avail himself of his Parliamentary position in
order to advance any thing which could be considered as re-
flecting on that Gentleman. But what were the facts? Why,
on the 4th of January last, Mr. Smith wrote to Hodges, the
defendant, calling on him to pay the amount of tithe, 221.—
(Hear, hear)—due to Mr. Holmes.' That letter was put
into the post office on the sth of January, and the defendant
received it on the 6th of January. On the 7th he called to
pay the amount, when he did not see Mr. Smith, but the Lay
Association insisted that he should pay the sum of 191. 9s. Bd.,
being the amount of costs incurred between the 4th, when the
letter was written, the 6th, when it was received, and the 7th,
dwhen
a n de Hodges. for the purpose of paying the amount
Hear, hear," and cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) Was this fact denied ? He now came to another
case—one of a much more important nature than the
other—he alluded to the case of Knox v. Goven. Before
se•nattieorninsgupoinnt,oithisimcatsoe ,
drawor itnhteo
altitiosntojoboseor-f
the deotoaoisl
ss naryof
fotrh
the House to an enactment in a Bill, commonly called Goul-
burn's Act. The Act to which he referred, the 3d of Geo. IV.,
c. 103, had in its 12th section words to the effect, " That the
inspectors of police in Ireland might make certain orders and
regulations, w hieb, when adopted.by a magistrate, and approved
of by the Lord Lieutenant, should constitute the ordinances
by which the police were to be regulated, and should be of as
much force and effect as if they had formed part of that Act."
Upon the authority of this section, then, an order was made in
1823, signed by a late. Chancellor of the EXcliequer, and he
(Mr. Sheil) hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman was in the

House, as he had previoully informed him that he should make
the present use of the ofneY 1/37 bitilgOlf; which order
(in its sixth rule) provided; " That the pidig stidirld not inter-
fere in the service of civil proiesses, finless Under the order of
a mr*gistrette, er pf t 4 She' or sub-sheriff; and that they
should then consider their duiY to be ?c protect chose persons
in the execution of their several duties." Here was the order
made in 1823, when Mr. Goulburn was Secretary for Ireland,
and the Right /Ion; Henry ,Joy (now Chief Baron of the
Exchequer in Ireland) Vail file •legetl aalitiser of the Crown,
and which received his unqualified appfotiiifidiri: That order
was repeated in 1825; and since: Such being' 'Alt"' State of
the matter as regeatled the liZjY, Wht had been the, course pur-
sued in the case of Knox v. Goven Mni Staff filed bills
in the Exchequer against twenty-two persons, and among the
rest against goveiri; the tithes claimed as against him amoun-
ting to only 1/. i ls. :tri.fottnt wa3 important as showing
the animus. The bills having been {NIS flied; what was done
then ? Why, in December last, Mr. Smith wrote ftiftgr to
the Noble Secretary for Ireland, stating that he was employed
in the conduct of. a great number of tithe suits, and deman-
ding the Noble Lord's opinion as to the course which ought to
be adopted as regarded the police. The letter was not imme-
diately answered, and Lord Morpeth soon after received a
second letter, complaining of a want of due courtesy (a com-
plaint
which he, Mr. Shell, was sure ail would admit could
have no foundation in the intentions of the Noble Lord, what-
ever might be the cause of the delay in answering the letter
of Mr. Smith,) which letter Lord Morpeth immediately an-
swered, to the eff•ct that no offence had been intended by him,
and telling him that the police were only to be employed
where actual riot had been committed—and then as the as..
sistants of the Magistrates. This was the answer of the
Noble Lord ; but it would not do for the Lay Associa-
tion.—( Hear, hear, from .the Ministerial benches.) This
brought him to a detail of the expedients which were in
consequence employed by that Society, to defeat the operation
of the orders to which he had before referred,- as having been
made under the authority of the Act called Goulbtirn's Act,
and which extended to the employing men of the very lowest
order—one Dudley, for instance—and investing them with a
power which enabled them to bring the police and the force of
the British army into action. Those expedients consisted in
the revival of the commissions of rebellion, the nature of
which would be within the knowledge of the House. There
were no such modes of proceeding in England in the Exche-
quer or in the Chancery, because by the 22d rule of the Chan-
cery Court they were expressly abolished, nor had they been
other than obsolete in the Irish Court of Exchequer during a
period of upwards of 200 years. By this process there was
first a summons to the defendants from the Court, then an
alias, then a planks, and if this last process were not obeyed,
then the defendant was declared a rebel, and a commission of
rebellion issued against him, which (so entirely nominal was
it intended to be) was usually directed to John Doe and
Richard Roe, and was issued in the name of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer for the time being. At the conclusion of
it, however, there was a clause, which was of too valuable a
kind to be easily lost sight of by those who desired to avail
themselves of anything—of even a mere matter of form.
That provision was to the effect that " all persons, ministe-
rially employed, should assist 'the Commissioners in resisting
the rebellion," and the Lay Association availed themselves of
its terms to issue a commission of rebellion addressed to one
Dudley, who had sworn to having been twenty years in the
service, upon receiving which commission this Dudley pro-
ceeded to put it into execution, Thus a plot was laid to en-
snare the police, and when he arrived on the spot where the
commission was to be executed, Goven and Hodges were
thrown into prison. He then applied to Malone, the chief
constable of the district, asking him, under the terms of the
commission, to assist him in its eftectiticn in several parishes.
Malone at once referred Dudley to tile order before men-
tioned, under which he was prohibited from interfering Unless
by order of the Magistrates ; but Dudley insisted on his giv-
ing him aid, saying that he had been- instructed to apply to
him. Malone required time to consult Major Miller, a Ma-
gistrate resident at a place eighty miles distant, to whom he
sent for his opinion, which, when returned, was decidedly ad-
verse to the application of Dudley for the aid of the police.
Upon this a conditional order was moved for in the Court of
Exchequer for an attachment against Malone and Major
Miller for a contempt of Court, in refusing to comply with the
demand of the commissioner of rebellion. Major Miller was
therefore obliged to answer Dudley's application ; and the law
officers of the Crown, the Attorney and Solicitor Generals,
accordingly showed cause against the rule, for the purpose of
proving that Malone- had been doing his duty in acting as
he had done; and • that Major Miller had advised him
rightly. The circumstances attending_ the decision were
peculiar. The application for the order was advised by a
Barrister named Smith, the Attorney employed by the Lay
Association was a Mr. Smith, and the Judges who presided
were Baron Foster (Baron Pennefather being absent) and
Baron Smith, who had been ill from the 2d of November, the
commencement of the Term, but was fortunately restored to
health by the 26th of January, the day on which this question
came on. All the world knew that Baron Smith was a person
liable to the influence of his political opinions. As, unfortu-
nately, it generally occurred in Courts of Justice in Ire-
land, there was a. great deal of discussion on political sub-
jects, and the Counsel employed to sustain the case of the
Lay Association did not scruple to charge the Government
with having colluded with parties in Ireand to hinder the
recovery of tithe, upon which allegation the Solicitor-General;
with all that manliness of eloquence for which he was distin-
guished, retorted in denial. The result was that Mr. Baron
Smith ruled that Malone had subjected himself to the attach-
ment, thus virtually setting aside the order of Mr. Goulburn
before detailed, and decided that Dudley had a right to call
the police to his aid. (" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial
Benches.) And now he asked what would be the state of Ire-
land after such a decision—with an association which had
the Earl of Roden at its head, which divided the country into
districts in order the
.better to enforce the attainment of its
objects, and which had already filed 617 bills in equity, some
of them for sums as low as Is. 9d. ? Let the House con-
ceive what might be done by what had been done. Surely
the name of Borris-e-kane must have struck on the ears of
some Hon. Members. Surely it must ring in their remem-
brance. That was a place where there was a conflict, where
mass was said in the dead of night over the bodies of the
slain, and where every ceremony was adopted which could
strike upon the religious feelings of the people. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving for the returns
which he had previously read to the House. •
Mr: Sergeant JACKSON said that both his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for the UniVersity of Dublin
(Mr. Lefroy) and himself had cause to complain of the course
which the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary had taken
on this occasion. The first part of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's motion formed the subject matter of a distinct
notice ; and as he had told them that lie would not submit it
to the attention of the House without giving them some previous
notice of his intention, they clearly had a right to complain of
having been taken by surprise.—( Hear, hear.) Taken as he
was by surprise, he was not prepared • but still he would do
justice to the Lay Association recently formed in Ireland, to
aid the Clergy in obtaining their legitimate rights by de-
fending them against the attack which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman bad made against them.—( Hear, hear.) The
Honourable and Learned Member had made a number of al-
legations for the purpose of showing that he had grounds for
his motion, but he had no hesitation in asserting that not a
single one of those allegations was founded in fact.—(Cheers.)
He asserted that the association_ was not an Orange society,
although he believed no Roman Catholic gentlemen belonged
to it.—(A laugh.) It was now the fashion to stigmatise
ever3body in Ireland who was not of that persuasion.—
(Cheers froin the Opposition, and cries of " Oh, oh," from the
Ministerial benches.) He repeated that it was now the fashion
to stigmatise and render odious every Protestant who refused
to submit to the domination of a certain despicable faction in
that country.—( Renewed cheers, and cries of " No, no.) He
asserted that it was, arid that too, fearlessly, and without the
hazard of contradiction.—( Vehement cheering.'" An exten-
sive confederation, or lather conspiracy, existed throughout
the whole of that country to rob the Clergy.—(Cheers.) The
Clergy were not only pillaged and plundered to an incredible
extent, but they found it utterly impossible to assert their
rights ; and such, in short, was the universal dread which this
conspiracy inspired in the minds of men, that even the Hon.
and Learned Member himself had declared that he dared nut
Wh
assigned
wonderedrest i
ghpypr.
Learned
ee
aht
nddsneeecl
Gbfneal
payagainstment
vty ttfihlteaeihamtnn thealt smear
i t.—( Cries of " No, no," from Mr. Shell. )
the application.—(
cco.
alaliraaaeprnrpoicgdd,ifi
iyecaitra,iigvettlimiatealoerrnenser::_rndi
n G.l
Cheers.)
driven,
;I writtenechtehtl
aroebsdsm.yu
t)aachphnt
ei
faleconi
erroeldecul
aloe;
stdsni
osos.
non-
compliance tyialolvitbniaomde-s:
filing bills for the recovery of their rights when they found it
impossible to obtain from the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen—
from a Member of the Legislature—payment of their dues
without the interference of the law ?—( Renewed cheers.)
But the House would like to know what the 'answer was which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman gave to the clergyman al-
luded to. • He tells.him—
Mr. SHEIL—Read the whole letter.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—He had not the least objection
to hand the letter to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman might, if he thought fit, read
the whole of it to the House, but he hoped the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman would do him the honour to allow him
to exercise his own judgment in selecting and-reading from it
the passage which struck him as most pertinent to the matter
in hand.---( Cheers.) In other respects he wished it to be un-
derstood that this letter was by no means discreditable to the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Cries of " Read, read,"
from Mr. Shied arid others.) He was not to be dictated to by
either the Hon. and Learned Gentleman or by any other Hon.
Member on the opposite side of the Ilouse, as to the course
which he should pursue on this or any other occasion.—(Great
cheering, and faint cries of " Oh, oh.") In this letter the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, " You must be aware that
as Member for the county of Tipperary, I am obliged to make
my election between the payment of tithes and the loss of my
seat."—(Tremendous cheering.) Such was the reason which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman assigned-for refusing to pay the
tithes which he owed ; but to what a pass bad things come when
a Member of that house was afraid to discharge a lawful de-
mand because of an atrocious conspiracy of this kind--wh.en
his holding his seat depended rather on his compliance with
the will of such a confederation than his obedience to the laws.
—( Renewed cheering.) Under these circumstances he should
like to know whether any Protestant could see the Clergy of'
the religion which he
professed reduced to beggary, in the
actual process of starvation, and not come forward to compel
those to pay them that which they refused to pay them except
by the intervention of the laws.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had stated as a fact what was altogether
untrue. He had said that the Lay Association had filed no
fewer than 600 bills for the recovery of tithes.
Mr. SHEIL—I said 617, not 600:
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON—Whether it was six hundred
or six hundred and seventeen, he denied the fact in the most

positive terms. The statement was wholly destitute of truth.
--.(Cheers,) Let the Hon. and Learned Gentleman prove
if he could that a sixth or even an eighth pe/t of the number
of bills ltc had stated had been filed. Well but, said the Hon.
and Learned aentleriann, there was no necessity for taking
such cases into the Court of Exchequer when the Civil Bill
Court was open to the parties to the extent of lot This
was a plausible argument, no doubt; but he should be glad
to know how claims in respect to tithes could be enforced by an
inferior tribunal. They were all aware, or had, at all events,
heard, of the manner which process servers were treated when
they attempted to carry the law into execution. He had been
concerned in several cases in which the unfortunate process
server had encountered violence and outrage of the worst kind.
He could satisfy any man that the Clergy could not obtair,
their rights through the instrumentality of an inferior jurisdic-
tion, and although it was charged against them as a crime,
they had no alternative left but to resort to the Court of Ex-
ecluer. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated that Mr.
I,gaiith as the attorney of the Lay' Association, and he
charged that aentlctnan with—
Mr. SHEIL made no charge against Mr. Smith, and meant
to make none.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON.—WeII, but the .Hon. and
Learned Gentleman said that air. Smith was the attorney of
the Lay Association. This statement was just as void of
foundation as the other allegations which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had made.--(Cheers.) Mr. Smith neither was
nor ever had been the solicitor of the Lay Association, but
that Association had a solicitor, not, however, for the purpose
of originating suits, but seeing that assistance was given in no
case that did not merit interference and that the proceedings
were properly, conducted. Mr. Richard Open, a gentleman
of high character in the profession, was the solicitor of the
Association, and his duty was rather to prevent oppression than
'to cause it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also said that
in tito ease of Holmes and Hodges costs had Leen accumulated
to an extraordinary amount, not by Mr. Smith but by the Lay
Association. But would the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
.have the hardihood to assert that the Lay Association had any
concern whatever with that case, either directly or indirectly ?
Ile,called on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to do so if he
dared.—(Loud and continued cheering.) He (Mr. Sergeant
Jackson) verily believed that the Lay Association never even
heard of the case; at least he, who was a member of it, and
had attended its meetings, never had.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
As it was not his intention to object to the motion, all he
hoped was that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would yen-
der the returns more comprehensive still—that he would have
ascertained not only how many suits had been brought.—how
many demands had been paid in consequence—what amount
of costs had been incurred—but how many decrees had been
pronounced, and what the number of bills was that had been
dismissed on the hearing.—(Hear, hear.) He would now
pass on to another part of the subject—that which related to
the conduct of the Barons of the Exchequer. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman was emphatic in. his complaint about the
rule prepared while Mr. Chief Baron Joy was Attorney-Ge-
neral, under the Act of the 3d of George IV., and he repre-
sented it as an extraordinary thing that Mr. Baron Smith
should have been well enough to go to Court when the case
of Knox n, Goven was heard. He did not know what the

Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to insinuate
but although he (Mr. Sergeant Jackson) was not there to vin-
dicate either the Right Hon. Chief Baron Joy, Mr. Baron
Foster, Mr. Baron Pennefather, or Mr. Baron Smith, he was
bound to say that the characters of those eminent persons
were above any imputation that the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman could cast upon them—that they were utterly incapa-
ble of being swayed by any motive other than an anxious
and conscientious desire to discharge their public and im-
portant duties impartially.—( Loud cheering.) Now, with
respect to the decision come to by the Court of Ex-
chequer in the case of Knox v.. Goven, no two lawyers, he
thought, could differ. That decision was clearly in accord-
ance with the law, and although the Act emp(Tered the In-
spectors of Police, with the approbation of the Lord Lieute-
nant, to make rules and regulations for the
.conduct of the
constabulary, it could not be contended that ti set aside the
jurisdiction of the King's Judges. On this point he was at
any time prepared to meet the Hon. and Learned Member, pr
any other lawyer in the country.—( Cheers.) It was utterly
false, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that the Com-
mission of Rebellion had been abolished in England. It was
true that the Law Commissioners had recommended its aboli-
tion ; but it was also most certain, unfortunately for the truth
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's assertion, that a party
was brought before Lord Brougham, while Chancellor, under
a writ of this description—( Vehement cheering)--and that
that Noble Lord refused to discharge him, observing that he
could not help his being detained in custody.—( Renewed
cheering.) It was, therefore, as contrary to the fact to say,
that the Commission of Rebellion had not been in use in Ire-

land for 200 years, as it was to assert that it had been abo-
lished in this country. He had now shown that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's facts were not facts ; but as he did not
wish to fatigue the House, he would abstain from further ob-
servations.

Mr. HUME suggested that they should have all the details,
both the number of the bills, the amount of tbe. debts claimed,
the costs incurred, and the names of the Attorneys.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had not the slightest objection to
that or anything else which was likely to afford the House
proper information.
Mr. O'LOGHLIN wished to observe that no Bill filed so
late as the Ist of August last could have come on for hearing,
and, consequently, as there could be no hearing, there could
be no dismissal. The Hon. and Learned Sergeant he sup-
posed wished it to be inferred, from what he bad stated, that
because no bill had been dismissed, the whole of the suits had
therefore been instituted properly. He threw out this intima-
tion merely to put the House on their guard as to the real fact.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had himself been present when
decrees of-sequestration had been made.
Mr. O'LOGHLIN denied that the. Hon. and Learned
Sergeant could have been present at anything of the kind.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had no objection to enlarge the
motion to meet the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned
Member, the Attorney-General for Ireland.
The SPEAK ER then put the question, after which
Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and said that with respect to the
proceedings of the Lay Association, of which the reamed
Gentleman had talked so triumphantly, he had no hesitation
to say that he considered their proceedings to be vexatious.
lie did not say that the Clergymen had not a right to proceed
for the recovery of their tithes, but how did they proceed ?
They first went to war with the. people, and then to law.vvith
them. They issued their 617 Exchequer writs, followed by a
Commission of rebellion for the recovery of their tithes. As
to the proceedings of the Lay Association, instead of going to
law themselves, they subscribed money to enable the Clergy-
men to go to law. He did not blame any man to contribute
to the support of the Clergyman in whose doctrines he be-
lieved. He thought that those who subscribed for the relief
and assistance of their Clergy were entitled to credit, and
if that principle had been carried to its full extent, they
would never have had occasion to hear of the triumphant.
decision of the Lay Association. He did not enter into any
question as to the legality of the proceedings of the Lay Asso-
ciation, but he knew when be was at the Bar that for any
set of persons to contribute or subscribe money for the pur-
pose of carrying on vexatious lawsuits was considered criminal.
It was what the law considered maintenance, and for which the
parties were punishable. He believed the lion. Gentleman
would so far coincide with him. With respect to the jurisdic-
tion of the Court of Exchequer, the lion. and Learned Gent.
was mistaken. The Exchequer was purely a judicial Court.
It did not possess a criminal jurisdiction. They could not, in
the execution of any of their writs, assume or take upon them
the command of the constabulary force. The party named to
execute the writ was not named by the Court of Exchequer,
but by the plaintiff who sued out the writ, and who might
have the loWest process server in the community to be the
principal party in its execution. It was not, let them mark,
the Court of Exchequer that named the party who was to be
principal in the execution of the writ. The plaintiff' named
the person, and was it to be supposed that it could have
been contemplated to. leave any such party the power of
calling to its aid the police or military force ? if murder was
committed in the tx:eugon of this writ the Court of exche-
quer would have no power to arrest. It' high treason or
Llony had been committed the Court of Exchequer would
not have the least right to interfere. . Yet this course was
taken, and this was the law which had been so triumphantly
stated by the lion. and Learned Member. He arraigned the
purpose and the objects of the Lay Association. Their pro-
ceedings had been adopted for a political purpose. He had
no hesitation to say that if this authority were established, and
that the constabulary force of the country were placed at the
disposal of parties named in the writs of the Court of Exche-
quer, it might be attended with the most dangerous conse-
quences... He would ask, was it to be held as law, that the
Court of Exchequer, a CoUrt of inferior jurisdiction, should
have the right to command the forces, civil and military, in
these dominions ? Was it to be held that a Court of' inferior
class should be held to possess such a power as this ? The
particular jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer was to aid
in the collection of the King's debts. It could not, unless
under a fiction, recover debts for a private individual. That
fiction was, that such plaintiff being a- King's debtor, he could
not, unless aided by the Court of Exchequer in.the recovery
of the debt due to him, pay his debt to the Crown. As to
what had been said of the power of the Court of Exchequer to
devise new writs, it could not do so unless by perversion of the
law. The Hon. and Learned Member had bestowed great
pains in vindicating the jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer.
He had certainly been thumping the box with as much excite-
ment as if he seemed to say, " Hurrah for the Court of Exche-
quer !" He seemed, in fact, as if he was 'beating the White-
boys, and knocking down those who were for the non-payment
of tithes. After some further observations, the Hon: and
Learned Gentleman proceeded to say, that he felt he was sure
that the Act of Parliament ought not to be left at the dictation
of Baron Joy and Baron Smith, and that he contended-the
Court of Exchequer had no criminal jurisdiction whatever, and
that the issuing of a writ of rebellion was riot a remedy, but a
wrong.—( Hear, bear.)
Mr. LEF'ROY was not surprised to hear the lion. and
Learned Gentleman arraign the Court of Exchequer. There
was no respectable body in the empire which, he believed, had
not at one time or •tither been the object of the lion. aad
Learned Gentleman's invective.—( Hear ) time since
he believed the Hon. Gentleman had• arraigned some of the
members of his Majesty's present Governiiit.(
He certainly felt surprised to see an member of the legal.
profession stand up in his place to arraign the power of the
Exchequer to issue writs in the cases referred to. With re-
spect to the jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer he would
quote a high authority on that part of the subject. The lion.
and Learned Member read very briefly an extract from sonic
authority with respect to jurisdiction of the Court of Exche-
quer, establishing the. jut isdiction of that Court in the issue of
uch writs as had been referred to. He was surprised to
hear in Parliament the authority of the Courts of Justice
denied and their proceedings cavilled at. If the power of

the. Courts id Vindicate the law was to be juterfered with
' Where was the protection for the safety of society, for the li-
• berty of individuals, or for the rights of the subject. He Rai
surorised to hear such an argument. The Hon. and Learned
• Member for Dublin had talked as if this proceeding
0
was a revival of' an obsolete practice. But it was no seek
thing. He had had thirty-five Years' experience at the Bar,
and he had always known that when the Courts had bad their
authority set at defiance they had' resorted to the most effee;
tual means in their possession to vindicate their authority.—..
dHear, hear.) When defiance was set to the law, and when
civil rights were invaded, aggressed, it was right that the law
should put all its energy forth in its own vindication, for the.
maintenance of its own dignity and the protection of those
rights. The jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer required
this vindication. It had been contended on the other side that
the power of calling into assistance the police force was not
to be exercised unless by the interference and under the con-
troul of a Magistrate. r But, notwithstanding all that had
been attempted to be contended to the contrary, be never
could persuade himself that a power would be given to a sub-
sidiary Magistrate which would be denied to one of the high
Courts of the country. In this conviction he would not offer
any further observations.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'LOG IIL EN did not deny that the practice of issu-
ing writs of rebellion existed ; but then he would say that
even in the Court of Exchequer in Ireland, a person writing
against the practice of that Court, so long back as 177 D,
called it even then an obsolete practice.—( Hear, hear.) The
Court of Chance,7 in Ireland bad abolished it.—(Hear.)
Though he-admitted the existence of the process in the Court
of Exchequer, he did not know of its being executed but in
one or two instances. The question i; not as to the issuing of
the writ, but whether that House was prepared to sanction a
Court in declaring this—that it would attach for contempt
every man who refused a bailiff to go and assist him. And
this was a question which affected the liberty of every indi-
vidual—( Hear, and cheers)—because if it were to be held that
the police constables were to be attached for not obeying the
summons of a commission to a writ of reboli:on, there was
no,persim in the community safe—nay, the Chief Baron him-
self might be attached for a similar proceeding.---( Hear,
hear.) The police in Ireland, as the House knew from a dis-
.

'cussion whiclitook place in the early part of the evening,
awed their origin to an Act passed in 1822. That body of
police now consisted of upwards of 7,000 men. The expense
of supporting them was defrayed half out of the consolidated
fund, and the other half was paid by a tax levied in the dif-
ferent counties in which they were employed. Under:the Act
of Parliament, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had the power
of framing rules and regulations, not merely as regarded the
police, but what exactly was the duty that the constables had
to perform. In 1823 the Lord Chief Baron, then Solicitor-
General, admitted in Court, when pressed upon the subject,
that he had framed the rule which had been named by the Ho-
nourable Member for Tipperary, and in that rule it was dis-
tinctly laid down that the police were not to interfere in the
executions by civil process, unless called upon by a Magis-
trate, or the Sheriff in person.—( Hear.) In 1823 this rule
was framed by the Chief Baron, immediately after passing
the Act, and it was regulated that no person who was a She-
riff's bailiff should be appointed a constable. A question arose
both between the Sheriffs and Magistrates upon this subject.
The Sheriffs insisted that the police should aid, them in the
execution of these writs. The Government, however, insisted

that the police constable was only to be a preserver of.* pub-
lic peace. In 1823, the Lord Chief Baron having teen ap-
plied to on the part of Lord Carbery, for the aid of the police
in the execution of tithe warrants, gave this as his opinion :
It might be right to advert to the impropriety pf employing
the police to assist in the execution of tithe-warrant—the in-

terference of that body in assisting in the first instance in the
execution of civil process being most improper."—( Cheers
from the Opposition Members.) He wished that Honour-
able Gentlemen would reserve their cheers until they were
more required. This opinion proceeded,—" If any breach
of the peace is committed by resistance to civil process,
then—and not till then—can the interference of the police
be warranted, and this for the purpose of apprehending the
offenders."—(Hear, and loud cheering from the Ministerial
Benches.) The Lord Chief Baron then advised that the po-
lice should only interfere after a breach of the peace, and that
but rcr the purpose of apprehending the offenders.—( Hear. )
In
.1823 :he Sheriff of Limerick called for the aid of the police
in the execui.!?n of civil process ; and when they looked at
this case, he would ask, could any person contend that when
assistance was refused to the Sheriff, that it should be given to
a bailiff named by the plaintiff?—(hear, and cheers)—that
the first and most respectable officer should be refused, and that
every person named in this writ ~should have such aid ?—( Hear,
hear.) If the police went out under the orders of a magis-
trate, the law shielded them as long a they acted under the
orders of that magistrate ; but they all knew, from sad expe-
rience, what unhappy conflicts had taken place when they, had
been so called out; but would it now be said that it was the

duty of the Government to allow the police to go without a
magistrate or a sheriff—that the whole of the police should go
with any person, however respectable or otherwise ? Thus
they should be taken by such a person to conflicts, perhaps to
be attended with loss of life, as they had known several in-
stances of the kind .to have occurred.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) In 1823, the Sheriff of Limerick applied for aid,
and this was the answer given :
".I 'have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th
instant, and having by the Lord-Lieutenant's desire, consulted the
law advisers of the Crown, lam to acquaint you that he is of opi-
nion that except in a case of actual breach of the peace, the po-
lice cannot be employed by you in the capacity of Sheriff."—
( Cheers.) _

The Sheriff inclosed a copy of the opinions of Mr. Saurin
and Mr. Penncfather, stating that they considered the police
could be taken out, and requested that the (minion of the law
officers of the Crown should be given. The Sheriff stated
that his county was under the Peace Preservation; as well as
the Insurrection Act; and that he could not, without immi-
nent danger of life, attempt to execute Court processes.
This was the application of the Sheriff; and he would read
now the answer of the Solicitor-General Joy ; he was war-
ranted in calling it so, for the original was there in his hand-

Ivriting :

" December 24, 1825.
" have received, and laid before the Lord-Lieutenant,
Your letter of the 19th inst., soliciting the aid of the police in the
execution of writs, and I am to acquaint you that it is no part of the
duty of the constables under the 3d Geo. IV., c. 103, to assist in
executing such writs. and his Excellency therefore cannot give•the
order which you require ; but if the persons properly authorised to
execute them are obstructed or resisted in the execution of that
duty, the constables will be bound, on informations as to the cir-
cumstances being sworn before a Magistrate, to apprehend the per-
sons concerned in such obstruction or resistance, for the purpose of
bringing them to punishment."
This letter appeared to be signori by the Under-Secretary
for Ireland. To it was appended this :
" Tile new constables are to be employed in arresting any of the
persons %vim can be sworn to have been guilty of the attack on tl.e
sheriff. As to assisting the sheriff to execute, civil process, they
are not to be Called on except as part of the posse comitatus, from
which service they are not exempt.
January 24, 1825."

The magistrates and sheriffs were not satisfied with this, and
the case was laid before the Attorney-General and the .Soli-
citor-General. The opinion given by them was—
" We have already, on full consideration, given our opinion that
the proper duty of the constables appointed under• the new Act is
to act in the execution of magistrates' warrants in cases only where
a breach of the peace is committed ; in all other eases the magis-
trates are at liberty to proceed as they have hitherto done, the
power of appointing constables for such other purposes remaining
unaffected by the late Act. The magistrates, therefore, will dinet
their warrants as usual, but should not deliver them for trfxcubion
to the new constables. " W. C. PLUNKET.
" August, 1824 't " lIY. JOY.
This was in 1824, and in that year such was the opinion given
by the present Lord Chwicellor and the present Lord Chief
Baron.—( Cheers.) In 182-1- another application fur assistance
was made, and this answer was also returned by the Chief

_Neon :
" I have had the honour of receivi'u and submittin-, to the Lord
Lieutenant your letter of the 29th ult., representing, by desire of
the Justices of the Peace acting in the barony of Clanwilliamnorth,
and county of Limerick, the difficulty in which they arc placed in
consequence of the police not being employed to execute warrants
fiar the recovery of tithe. • I am directed by his Excellency to in-
font you that after the most mature and repeated consideration of
the subject, it is considered that the employment of the police, in
tia. first instance, in the execution of civil process, would tend
mainly to dlleat the great object of their institution ; but that if
any breach of the peace should be committed in resisting civil pro-
cess, the employment of the police to apprehend the offenders would
b quite consistent with the purpose for which they were established,
am! would be highly proper.
He bad to state now, that another application was made by the
sub-sheriff of the county of Clare, who applied to the High
Constable Watkins to give him some mounted police to assist
in the service of writs. He would mfer for the answer then
given to the. then Secretary for Ireland, the late Chancellor of
the Exchequer. It was to this effect
" I have submitted to the Lord Lieutenant your letter of the
13th, stating the Can under which the Under-Sheriff fcr the county
of Clare had required the attendance of the mounted constables for
his protection, and requesting instructions as to the course to be
pursued by you in the' event of such demands being repeated.
am commanded to acquaint you that the constables cannot legally
be employed by the sheriff or his deputy, in the execution of civil
process, and as it is essential that this should be distinctly under-
stood, it will be necessary that all applications for this purpose should
be withstood. In the execution of criminal process, or for the
mainteranee of the public peace, the sheriff has a legal power or
req guirin the service of the constable."
Here the police would not be given to the sheriff of Clare,
when calling for their assistance in the execution
heofcitibi e
King's writs. Now this was the opinion given by t
ef
Baron, who now said that it was a contempt in constables wi,
refused to aid a writ of rebellion...--( Cheers.) The effect of
so emPloying the police upon such matters was described in the
following letter from a chief constabli: in l 824 :
" Sia—l have to report the conduct of AIL', Benjamin Green,
snt-Acriff of this county : this day he had three mouotcd men out,
executing a warrant, and on his return said to Sergeant
.talls that
he would require four mounted men in the morning to go elo,:e to
O'Brien's Bridge, there toprotect him in performifig his duty. On
my return from Tulla, Sergeant Hy ails acquainted me with his wishes.
I sent my compliments to Mr. Green (by Sergeant Bvalls) that the
dutics to beperformed were out of my district that '
he couit, get men
at. O'Brien's Bridge. He replied l was tor}
impul,,tent for sending such
a raysige, and that he should hare the \ Sergeant its'ns
returned, he reported Mr. Green'A rev' y wa:, iv down to call on
Mr. 'Green, but met him in Gard-o:tj
rom
the party he was speaking to, eall:J him aside
to
him he comnzenced abusing mt. in on my commencing to ssia,e..,k lie
should have the horses to go i a most violent manner.o
there for his use, and ma ?'other
he pleased, tha.ttotimymwocryrr.
I replied he should hav'eny othe things I cannot can e
the horses, but that I would report the
circumstance to you ; he said I might do so, and was so very
temperate as to collect a mob about us. I have now, Sir, to beg
the favour of an inquiry into this case. If I have been in error it
will be the means of preventing a recurrence ; if, on the other
hand, it will appear I have not been in error, I trust you will
have the goodness to take such steps as you may think best, so as
to protect me in the execution of your orders ; the place Mr.
Green is going to is Doonass, two miles from O'Brien s Bridge,

.-..16._...

Id one from Clonlara ; t tho former station is Lieut. Bondon
and party, at the latter thrtt men at present. It is twenty-three
miles from Ennis. It, r:11 airs be necessary to acquaint you that
on Monday ail the ncrses were at. the fair of Quin, and much
worked ur2; the; day, as I said before, he bad three of them out.
One us:m ws. with me at Tula, and one ill leaving but two not.
surpi.oyed. I conceive that forty-six miles would be too much for
the hoses in a day, and particularly when men and horses are so
convenient. He asked me if I thought he was to go out of his way
to enter those horses. I cannot describe the abuse he gave in the
presence of many persons."
In December, 1824, another gentleman from a different
part of Ireland, that was described as being exceedingly peace-
able, thus describes the state of the peasantry. This letter
was from the Sheriff of Fermanagh, and dated the 19th of
December, 1826 :
" Sir—Having in my hands at this moment sew.tral of the King's
writs at the suit of the Very Reverend DPan Burrows, against a
number of persons resiaing on the .Shoe! Lands in the barony of
Glenawly, in this county, and been hitherto opposed in the execu-
tion of my clt.-av by large armed parties, riotously assembled toge-
ther, bearins llags, and otherwise apparently determined to commit
a breach of the peace, should I have persisted therein, I am thus
reluctantly obliged to call upon his Majesty's Government for their
directions how to obtain aid in support of the civil powers herein,
price to my again attempting the execution thereof.
" I should not thus intrude myself on your notice, but that with-
out a Magistrate's warrant the police of this county will not obey
any but the High Sheriff in person, or the military, unless at the
moment of opposition ; neither of which would I call on except in
a ease like this, where I hawa been myself a witness, and a number
of affidavits have been m..7.de that both lives are likely to be endan-
gered, and a breach et': the peace apprehended, should I go to those
lands unprotected.
" Your advice; and immediate attention to this matter, will ma-
terially faciliticte me in my duty in this behalf, as also remove the
awkward tnanner I am placed in as to my power of calling OTT the
police srchout a magistrate's warrant (which cannot at all times
be proi:ured), or the High Sheriff attending in person. And I
am, Sir," &c.
Tke answer to this letter was to this effect, from Mr. Gregory :
" The men will, on no account, interfere in the execution of
any writ, decree, or civil order, or in driving for rent, tithes, or
taxes, unless called out by a Magistrate, or the High or Sil'o-sheriff
in person, and then they will only consider it their d.-. 4
those persons in the execution of their office."
Acting on this authority, the Sub-sheriff to protect
- • went out on the 19th
of January, and met with the same 'nostile resistance ; an ac-
count of which he thus gives. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
bc-r then read the ric-,,ount.. In reply to this statement, Chief
-Baron Joy wrote. to 'gay that " the new constabulary force
might be eir.ployea in arresting any person who bad been
guilty of assaulting the Sheriff in the execution of his duty,
but that as to assisting the Sheriff in the execution of writs,
that was not to be required--( Hear, bear)—except in their
character of part of the posse comitatus."—(Hear, hear.)
It was all very well to talk of their being called out as part of
the posse comitatus ; but was ever a case heard of in which a
party was attached for refusing to serve under such circum-
stances. He would show that in 1826 the Government, acting
under the authority of Chic': Baron Joy, were of opinion that
the constabulary force ought not to be used in this way. In
1826, a constoLle who refused to execute one of these warrants
was fined 61.. for cor.tempt. The Government %las applied to
on the sc:oject, and Mr. Goulburn wrote the following letter,
directing the remission of this fine :
"Dn e, ct. 3 18.
" Stu—l have received your let übli C astl
ter of the 119th instant relative
to the fine of 51. imposed upon Chief-constable Giveen for not ex-
ecuting a warrant issued under the order of the magistrates as-
sembled at Downpatrick Sessions. And upon consideration of the
circumstances, I am directed by the Lord Lieutenant to acquaint
you that his Excellency h.z.s been pleased to remit the fine, and
desires that the amosvat shall not be stopped from Mr. Giveen.—
I am, &c.,

(Signed)
" Major D'Arcy, Belfast."
(Hear, }'.ear, hear.) Now, whether that order was right
or wrong, they were not here to discuss ; but it was ra-
the:- unfair to accuse other persons of setting up themselves
against the laws of the land, because in conformity with the
first law authority in the land they had not held this person
to be guilty of contempt.—(Hear.) He would go through
many other cases up to the time when the Court of Exche-
quer pronounced against this decision ; to which he would
Challenge all the Courts in England and Ireland to produce
a similar. For by that decision every soldier in Ireland—
every officer on parade—might be called upon to break into
houses and arrest persons, and seize property in this process.
The process, perhaps, might be an obsolete one, but it was
still in existence, and had been executed. Before he sat
down he had a few observations to make up'-;0 these pro
ceedings in the Court of Exchequer. It %VP', In his opinion,
of very little importance whether these b;.Yls had been filed by
the Lay Association or not ; it was vet,little matter whether
only six attorneys had filed neat six hundred of these bills;
and whether, so common were they, that they had been made
out upon lithographed for.nr,, instead of written in the ordinary
way. Certain it was, as; he could show, that the greater part
of them were for surns under two pounds, and that many of
them were for
_sums 'under a couple of shillings—(Hear,
hear); yet in ell these cases the costs must, upon a fair cal-
culation, amou'at to upwards of ninety pounds.--( Hear, hear.)
To prove *As, Ile would refer to two cases in particular; one
of these, Vas, a claim of 19/. odd, the amount of taxed costs
was 931. 17s. ; in the other, for a claim of 201. 18s., the taxed
costs were 941. 4s. 2d.--( Hear, hear.) Now in the Assistant-
Bayri'..ter's Court, any sum under 201. might be recovered by
eivi' process, and execution speedily directed to the sheriff,
who could command the military and police against both per-
sons and goods. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman con-
cluded by trusting the House would accede to the motion, and
sat down amidst considerable cheering.
Mr. SHAW said, it was suite clear that the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland's object had been to impugn the judicial au-
thority and integrity of one of the King's Judges in Ireland.
—( Hear, hear.) Ile Hon. and Learned Member then went
on to complain, that the motion bad been altered from that of
which notice had been given; his Hon. and Learned Friend,
the member for Bandon, therefore, came down totally unpre-
pared to meet the question, whilst the Hon. and Learned At-
torney-General for Ireland came down armed at all points—
( Hea::, hear)—being fully prepared for what must come, and
ma.-Cie the motion the medium of attack upOn one of the King's
Judges in Ireland. This attack upon the Learned Chief
Baron was in an endeavour to prove that he had given a judg-
ment as a Judge inconsistent with the opinion expressed by
hire on the same case as a lawyer. He hoped, still, however,
that the judges of the land would not be frightened from their
path of independent rectitude by the strictures of the King's
Attorney-General, cheered on as he was by the members of
his Majesty's Government in that House.—( Hear, hear.) With
respect to the Lay Association, he believed he could declare
that that society had not acted in they way alluded to. They
bad not been concerned in originating any of these Bills in
the Court of Exchequer: they had merely been employed to
look into those already engaged upon for the purpose of seeing
that none but the best cases should be 'persevered in.
The CHANCELLOR of ti:, EXCHEQUER com-
menced by replying to his Ri.;ht Hon. and Learned Friend
the Attorney-General for T;.eland, for himself, and for the rest
of his Friends on that, se'le of the House, the charge of unfairly
altering the form OC. 'the present motion. Until the Hon. and
Learned Gentle:ar,n had concluded his speech he was quite
unprepared for such an alteration.—(Hear.) The Right
Hon. and r.itarned Gentleman complained that his Right Hon.
and Lerint(l Friend had come armed at all points.—( Hear.)
True% he was so—( Hear)—and those points had evidently been
Hear.) They had inflicted wounds which would not
}..,e lightly thought of.—( Cheers.) If his Right Hon. and
Learned Friend had not come down so prepared, he might have
been led astray upon a wild goose chase, urged on by the in-
vectives of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite against
Government, for presuming to use their authority in order to
overpower that of a Judge in his court. The Hon. and
Learned Member For De'Jlin University said that it was a
new position for an Attorney-General to impugn the integrity
and authority of a :Judge. But he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) denir,d that his Right Hon. Friend bad done so
on the present occasion.—( Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Hear.")
In every par er, in every speech proceeding from their politi-
cal adversesies, his Majesty's Government had been charged
with, eieuer by fraud or artifice, withholding from the King's
subjects the protection to which they were entitled. And
we-re they to give no answer to such accusations ? They had
done no more than what the law of the land authorized ; they
lead done no more than they were justified in doing by the
fauthority of previous law-advisers of the Crown. He denied
that the letters which had been read by his Honourable and
Learned Friend were private ; they were public documents ;
they contained the opinion of the law-officers of the Crown,
that except in case of an actual breach of the peace the police
force ought not to be employed. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had taken an active part in tile discussions on the
Constabulary Bill. In the Committee a clause was intro-
duced providing that except in eP.:se of an actual breach of
the peace the public force shoe.lit not be employed. In 1827
a clause was introduced into the Bill, in • which it was
particu'Arly pointed out that the police force should not
be employed in the collection of tithes, in the levying
of rents, in the imposing of fines or penalties under
the revenue or game laws. That a writ of rebellion was a
civil, and not 'a criminal process, was evident from the fact that
the party r_ould be discharged under the Insolvent Act. In
that case, therefore, the police could not be resorted to.
There was no right on the part even of the Bench itself so to
re,ort to it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman spoke of
the danger of destroying public confidence in the adminis.
tration of justice. But while the public owed much to the
Bench, the Bench "owed something to the constituted au-
thorities.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He protested against its being
held out to the people that the Government, from the highest
to :he lowest functionary in the state, were in a conspiracy to
etefeat the law.—( Hear, hear.) Such a practice was fatal to
*lithe best interests of society. He apologised to the House
for having troubled them so long. He would not have inter-
fered in the discussion at all, but that the Hon. and Learned
Member for the University of Dublin dared any Member of his
ISlajesty's Government to come forward.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord 11ORPETH would trouble the House with
safely
but very
few words, for two reasons; the first that he might safely leave
the legal points of the case in the hands of his Hon. and
Learned rriend ; and in the second
place, because the cases
were still pending in a court of law. He begged it to be dis-
tinctly understood that be did not shrink from any of the con-
sequences of what had taken lace.—'Hear, hear.) _lie
orders were his.—( Hear, bear.) Let any proceeding be
pointed against him. Whatever the amount of the penalty
which he might have incurred, he had the consolation, how-
ever, of reflecting that he had not been misled but on great au-
thority. His authorities for this assertion were neither volu-
minous nor private ; and, therefore, with the permission of the
House be would read them. The Noble Lord here read three
documents. The first was an actual commission of rebellion
issued by Exchequer in a tithe case, as follows

" HENRY GOULBURN

" William the Fourth, by the Grace of God of the United King-
dom of Great Britan and Ireland, King, defender of the faith and
so forth, to Thomas Williams, Henry Ogle, John Sheridan, greet-
ing, because, by public proclamation, by the sheriff of the county
of Meath, in divers places of the said county, by virtue of our writ