The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-24 00:00:00

MESSRS. MARRINER AND CHADWICK.

Lord BEAUMONT moved that the petition of those
gentlemen to be released from custody be taken into con-
sideration.

Lord MONTEAGLE thought their Lordships had
sufficiently vindicated its privileges, and therefore would
not object to their release.
Earl GREY thought their Lordships were indebted to
his Noble Friend for the steps he had taken to vindicate
the privileges of their Lordships' House; but he hoped it
would be understood that, should a similar case occur
again, the parties would not be so leniently dealt with.
Lord BROUGHAM, having understood that both
these gentlemen were labouring under severe indisposi-
tion, would not oppose their release.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought if they were
released, that release should be accompanied by a solemn
reprimand. He thought the House was greatly indebted
tot his Noble Friend who had! brought this subject
forward.

Lord BEAUMONT would not attempt to palliate the
misconduct of these parties, and he moved that they be
reprimanded at the bar, and then discharged on pay-
ment of their fees.

The motion was agreed to, and Messrs. Chadwick
and Marriner were br.uht to the bar.

The LORD CHANCELLOR then took his seat on
the Woolsack, and, putting; on his hat, reprimanded
them, after which they were ordered to bo discharged,
on payment of the fees
PETITIONS.

Earl POWIS presented several petitions against (as
we understood) any alteration in the law prohibiting
marriage with a deceased wife's sister.

POOR-LAWS (IRELAND) COMMISSION.
The Earl of DEVON asked whether the report of
the Poor-law Commissioners of IrelAnd would be laid on
the table, or whether the Government intended to act on
the recommendation of the report?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to
say that the Government were prepared to recommend
certain alterations in the sense of the report ; hut his
reply was so inaudable that it was scarcely possible to
catch its purport.
NAVIGATION LAWS.

The Marquis of LANSDO WNE presented a petition
from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Town Council of Man-
chester, praying for a repeal of the navigation-laws.
AFFAIRS OF THE RIVER, PLATE.
The Earl of HARRO WBY moved for copies of all
instructions given to British envoys to the repuilics
situated on the River Plate since the instructions issued
to Mr. Ouseley in 1846. Since that period we have
had no information officially of what was going for-
ward on the affairs of the River Plate, although
we had two formal missions to and two irregular
communications with General Rosas, the President of
the Argentine Republic. The mission of Mr. Ouseley,
who was sent out in conjunction with a French envoy, was
unsuccessful; the missions of Lord Howden and of all the
other envoys had been equally so. The last envoy, Mr.
Southern, had not been officially received, although he
had been permitted to reside in a private house, and the
President of the Argentine Confederation had offered all
insult to Great Britain such as had never before been
offered to her. He wished to have official information on
this subject, and that was the reason why he now moved
for those papers. At present they knew nothing offi-
cially. All they knew was, that the interference of the
two most powerful nations in Europe had been treated
with contumely by the President of the Argentine Con-
federation. Those negotiations were now over and
completed, and there could, therefore, be no ground for
withholding information. They had heard mysteri-
ously, from papers communicated to the Legislatures of
ether states, that the contending parties were willing to
accept certain bases, termed " Hood's bases," with cer-
tain modifications; but what those bases or modifications
were they did not know. It had been the policy of the
President of the Argentine Confederation to create a
feeling of jealousy between the two mediating powers,
and he feared that to a certain extent he had succeeded
in sowing discord between the two nations on that
question. Lord Howden ha I gone over to Buenos
Ayres in the beginning of 1847, remained there in nego-
tiation with the President Rosas for a considerable time,
and at last, being dissatisfied with the ill-progress of
those negotiations, had crossed the water and gone to
Monte Video. There he communicated with the Presi-
dent of Monte Video, and announced to him that having
failed in effecting a settlement with Rosas, he proposed
to address himself to the military commander of the army
besieging Monte Video. He accordingly went to Gen.
Oribe, and proposed a convention, to which, however,
chat General refused to accede, except on certain modi-
fications being made. Lord Howden, then, without fur-
ther communication with Monte Video, declared his mis-
sion at an end, and abruptly quitted the River Plate.
This was most extraordinary conduct on the part of
Lord Howden. In a letter which he sent to
the English Government, one of the grounds he alleged
was, that the Government was in the hands
of foreigners. But it had been known fur a long
while that there was in Monte Video a great num-
ber of foreigners, but that had not caused interfer-
ence on the part of the English Government. Looking
at the result of that interference, ha thought he was en-
titled to ask for information. All that he knew at pre-
sent was, that two of the most powerful Governments In
Europe had been compelled to give way to General
Rosas in a way in which they had never done before.
President Rosas distinctly stated that the blockade was
raised with the approbation of her Majesty's Govern-
ment; but, from all he had heard, that approbation was
not felt in France, where the intelligence had caused
very considerable dissatisfaction and discontent, and it
was also rumoured that this dissatisfaction had been ex-
pressed to Members of her Majesty's Government. The
House, therefore, had a right to information on this
point. Another point which ha found stated in the
papers was, that before we could even gain an admission
for the representative of her Majesty he must make
certain modifications in the very basis of the terms
on which ho was to treat. As far as he (the
Earl of Harrowby) could learn of the nature of
these modifications, they were the very terms which
caused Lord Howden to put an end to the negotiations
before he would admit them. He asked, therefore, if we
were really to humble ourselves before this transatlantic
State, and submit to the rebukes contained in some of

those papers? He asked whether we were to agree to the
compensation of two millions sterling, for damaging
ships and property in the course of the blockade? He
wanted to know in what condition the affairs were in
those countries commanded by Oribe? These were the
questions to which he wished to have an answer, and
upon which the House were entitled to information, in
order that it might know how our interests were now
placed in that country. The Noble Lord proceeded, in a
nearly inaudible tone, to refer to the nature and the un
portanie of the trade with these countries. In the
year 1842 tha value of English commerce alone amounted

to three millions sterling, and if the common
course of nations had been pursued our trade in the
River Plate must now have been very much greater. In
1845 the value of one convoy which went out to Psrana
was estimated at sixteen million dollars, and this was an

entirely new kind of commerce, showing how greatly it
might have been increased and developed by proper tnea•
sures. It was, therefore, no trifling matter, looked at
merely in a commercial point of view. But it was more

than this. It was important to the welfare of the people
that treaties should tad observed, and that we should not
allow these two great nations to give way.to one power.
liosas had shown no desire to make concessions; on the
eoutrary, he had increased the limitations upon com-
merce in these great waters. The whole conduct of
the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-
office, in this matter, led him to the conclu-
sion, that it was his wish to substitute an entirely
different policy for that of the late Givernruent; and
he was afraid that the object of the Noble Lord would
not be realised, but, on the contrary, attended with dis-
appointment. In order to show that we were not un-
tniudful or indifferent to the vast interests at stake—
that the present state of our relations with the Argen-
tine Republic might be understood—that it might be
known whether we were going to support the obligations
of treaties, or for the purpose of removing the impression
that we had abandoned our ancient policy, he asked for
these papers. The Noble Earl concluded by moving his
motion. _

The Marquis of LANSDOWN E (who was very indis-
tinctly heard) said that, in rising to oppose the motion,
he was at the same time perfectly ready to give any in-
formation in his power that could promote the welfare
of the large and increasing commerce with the countries
on the River Plate. But the state of affairs at the pre-
sent time was entirely different from that which ex-

isted when the Noble Earl (Aberdeen) held office, and
was succeeded by his Noble Friend nose at the head of
Fcreign Affairs ; and looking at the present position of
the pending negotiations, it was not a tint) at which all
secret instructions issued to those engaged in it, should
be laid on the table. With the nature of these, instruc-
tions generally the Noble Earl did not seem so unin-
formed as he would lead *the House to infer. The
basis on which the negotiation was now proceeding,
and which had latterly assumed a very promising as-
pect, was, he could assure the Noble Earl, approved
of by foreign nations. With respect to the progress
of these negotiations, Mr. Ouscley was sent out in Jan.,
1845, and the negotiation was commenced in May,
and was in part brought to a satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. Ouseley determined to carry on a series of opera-
tions against Rosas, which created disapprobation in this
country. That disapprobation was participated in by
the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign-office. Lord
Howden was sent out in May, 1846, but was not able to
bring the affair to a satisfactory conclusion. Subse-
quently, his Lordship was commissioned, in conjunction
with a representative of France, to make another at-
tempt at a satisfactory settlement. It was certainly true
that that attempt failed in its purpose. He did not suc-
ceed in all that was asked. General Rosas agreed to
some portions, but they failed also with the Junta of
Monte Video, who did not agree with some other points;
and until these parties agreed among themselves, Lord
Howden did not consider himself in consistency war-
ranted in proceealine; further. But the statement that
Lord Howden's conduct had met with the disapprobation
of her Majesty's Gbvernment had no foundation what-
ever. He bad never heard or known of anything which
could give the slightest countenance to that statement.
The Noble Earl spoke of the raising of the blockade as
if its continuance would have been a great benefit to
Buenos Ayres and to England; whereas it certainly was
a state of things which was not very desirable in itself.
It must be to some extent unfavourable to Monte Video,
but not to so great an extent as would appear at first
sight, when they took into consideration the system of
smuggling which had been introduced under its opera-
tion, and which no doubt some of these Monte Videan
parties were very unwilling to lose. But the trade of
Buenos Ayres was one of great importance to England,
and with respect to General Rosas, he was of opinion
that if those who took so many objections to his conduct
were looking to the general benefit of trade instead of a
partial benefit, they would not indulge in these objec-
tions. At no time had trade been more beneficially
carried oa than under the absolute government of one
who was described as opposed to European commerce.
The treatment he had given to Mr. Southern was of the
most distinguished and kindly description. The man-
ner in which he had been received, the way in which he
was lodged and attended, were all calculated to
give Ts greatest satisfaction to the nation he re-
present d. With respect to the speech Rosas had deli-
vered to his Parliament, or by whatever name the As-
sembly might be called, he preferred to take his opinions
from the authorised communications of the President of
the Argentine Republic to this Government; and cer-
tainly he must say, from these communications, that
there was a desire—he had almost said an intention, on
the part of Ruses to coma to an amicable settlement;
and the *latter was in a fair way, as far as the state of
the river was concerned; and it would undoubtedly be
a source of great satisfaction to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, if they were enabled to conclade honourably and
satisfactorily such a protracted affair. It was with the
highest gratification that he had to state on the part of
the present Government of France, that a perfect un-
derstanding existed with reference to this affair; and
that there never was less reason to apprehend any dis-
turbance of these relations. Under these circumstances,
and especially keeping in view the promising aspect of
the negotiation, he should be sorry to lay any commu-
nications upon the table which might have the effect of
preventing a satisfactory conclusion. On these grounds
he must oppose the motion.

Lord BIiAUMONT hoped that the Noble Earl would
withdraw the motion for papers. If he would go back
to the beginning of these affairs he would find he was
in error. The object of the persons who were getting,
up an agitation was to continue to benefit by the original
error, which altered the Customs until the year 1850,
and which was a source of profit. The Noble Earl
spoke of Parana as a water open to all nations, whereas
it was entirely an inland river, subject to internal regu-
lations, as much as the Thames. Again, with respect
to the blockade, it was not as the Noble Earl suppceed,
a close one. Vessels were not prevented from going
farther than Monte Video, the worst that could befal
them was to pay double duties, and they were then al-
lowed to proceed. But, as he had stated, it was the alte-
ration of the customs in certain parts of the country
that was the cause of all the agitatior. He had, however.
told their Lordships that the proceedings from the first
had been an error which could not be too strongly cna-
demned. The Noble Lord, after taken a brief review of
the successive attempts that had been made by the Go-
vernment to bring this matter to a conclusion, said, from
all he learnt upon the subject, he believed that Lord
Howden had acted in the most friendly manner, and had
exercised greater influence over Rosas than any who had
preceded him, and there could be no doubt that all his
terms would have been agreed to had it not been for the
conduct of Witlewski, with whom he had been asso-
ciated. He was quite convinced that all might have
been settled—that England would have obtained all she
wished for, had it not been for the working of foreign
faction. He could not see how Lord Howden could be
blamed for any part of his conduct. He was appointed
to act with Walewski—compelled to act with him, and
did act with him—until the armistice was entered into,
when all joint interference terminated. It appeared from
the speech of the Noble Earl, that he expected the result
of all our interference to be something extraordinary;
that atter all the injury we had done to Rosas; after we
had acted contrary to the laws of nations; after all that,
if we got out of the scrape in the manner expected, it
would, to say the least of it, be creditable to the Noble
Lord, the present head of the Foreign-office.
Lord COLCHESTER was of opinion that the great
error in all our negotiations throughout this affair was,
that we did not simply attend to our own interests and
those of our country men, who were in the country. In-
stead of steadily doing that, ►se united with another
European power, whose alliance in European affairs was
a matter of great importance to the whole world, but
with whom, in such a case as this, we should have had
nothing to do, because France stood in a relation to
Buenos Ayres which prevented her from acting the part
of a mediator with any hope of success. He had heard
with great pleasure that we were now about to act sepa •
rately; had we done so from the beginning the whole
matter would have been settled years ago. Great error
was committed by our commencing hostilities when there
was not a state of war, and he was glad that in that
affair the conduct of Mr. Ouseley had not received the
sanction of the Government.

The Earl of HARROWBY said a few words in reply,
and the motion was then withdrawn.

On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE,
the Prisoners' Removal (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee.

The Spirits (Ireland) Bill was read a third time, and
passed.

Their Lordships then adjourned, at Half-past Seven
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 23.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

UNIVERSAL RAILWAY CASUALITY COM
PENSATION COMPANY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
SUNDERLAND DOCK ACT. ___

The report on the Sunderland Dock Act and River
Wear Commission Act (Amendment, &c.) Bill was con-
sidered and agreed to.
SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and ordered
to be committed :
Alford and Boston Road Bill.
Brompton and Earls Court, &c., Roads (Continuation of
certain Turnpike Road Acts) Bill.
Commercial Road (comprising the Cannon-street Roads,
the Commercial-road, the Horseferry Branch of Road, the
East India Dock Road, and the Barking Road) Bill.
Flitnwell Vent to Hastings Turnpike Road Bill.
Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company Bill.
Marylebene and Finchley Turnpike Roads Bill.
New North Road (Continuation AO) Bill.
Sheffield and Tmsley Road (Extension of the Tinsley and
Doncaster Turnpike Road to Sheffield) Bill.
Surrey and Sussex Roads (Amendment of Act and Altera-
tion of Tolls) Bill.

Truro Turnpike Roads, Penryn and Redruth Turnpike
Roads (Consolidation of Trusts, Alteration of Tolls, Forma-
tionof New Roads) Bill. _

Wisbecb, Chatteris, Tid Gote, and Downbam Bridge Turn-
pike (Continuation of Act, Alteration of Provisions relating
to Repair of Waldersay and South Side Banks, Abandonment
as to Turnpike of Road over same, Construction of New
Turnpike Road) Bill.

SEVERN NAVIGATION IMPROVEMENT COM-
MISSION, AMENDMENTS OF ACTS, NEW
WORKS, AND FURTHER POWERS BILL.
Sir J. PAKINGTUN moved the second reading of
this Bill. He trusted that he should be able to persuade
the House to allow the Bill to pass this stage, although
as he understood, its second reading was to ba,opposed
three grounds; first that there was a report against it,
under the Preliminary Inquiry Act; secondly, that the
town of Gloucester entertained strong objections to the
Bill; and, thirdly, that the county of Shropshire also had
great objections to the measure. The Hon. Member after
condemning the practice of canvassing Members, with
respect to their votes on private Bills, said, with respect
to the first objection to the Bill, namely, that the report
under the Preliminary Act was against the Bill, the
evidence against the Bill had been published, while that
in its favour had been suppressed. He thought, there-
fore, the House would not pay much attention to that
report to the Admiralty against the Bill. With regard to
the second point, which related to the objection of the town
of Gloucester, he might sum it up by stating that it arose
out of nothing more than a feeling of local rivalry.
Gloucester was afraid that Worcester would get some of
the good things she had so loug exclusively enjoyed
if this Bill passed. The third point was
involved in the objection raised to the Bill
of the people of Shropshire, who thought the Bill would
prove detrimental to their interests; but it had been
proved beyond all doubt that the measure would greatly
benefit them, and as the Bill would accomplish a great
public object, he trusted the House would assent to the
second reading of this Bill.
Captain BERKELEY said these measures, instead of
improving the Severn, servedl to impede the progress of
the tide, and to damage the trade and commerce of
Gloucester. Besides, this Bill contained the very clauses
that were rejected by the Committee of 1842, and he
could see no reasons for referring them again to a simi-
lar tribunal.

Mr. CLIVE said as the Commission itself were di-
vided upon the expediency or printing the Bill, and as it
would seriously injure the -upper part of the Severn, he
should vote against it.
Mr. FOLEY supported th a Bill conditionally.
Mr. LABOUCLIERE saj d he supported the second

reading of this Bill last year, because he thought it in-
volved matters off' an important public character which
ought to he inquired into by a Committee, and fur that
reason he should support it again.
Mr. IIUME could nut see in ,what way this 13i11
could benefit the public; it would have the effect of re-
tarding the flow of the tide above Gloucester. Perbopi

the Elouse was not aware that the Bill propcKed to
authwise the erection of a solid weir, about
fourteen miles above Gloucuster, which, it tot
csticaL4tcd, would prevent the flow of 14,000,000 0,
cubic feet of water which pasted above Gloactbter,
without any ob3truetion whatever.

Mr. SLANEY opposed the Bill, as injurious to the in•
Wrests of the public.
Mr. LITTLETON supported it.
After a few words from Mr. 0. GORE,
Sir J. PAKINGTON replied, and the House divided,
when there appeared—
For the second reading ... ... 137
Against 171
Majority against the second reading —34
The Bill is consequently lost.
BURIALS IN TOWNS.

Lord DUNCAN, seeing the Right Hon. Baronet the
Secretary of State for the Home Department in his place,
wished to ask him whether the Bill which had received
the sanction of Government for the regulation of burials
in towns was likely to have reference to other cities
besides the metropolis.
Sir G. GREY said that so far there was no intention,
of extending the provisions of the Bill to any other places
than the metropolis.
PROSECUTION OF MR. DUFFY.
Mr. HUME said, that seeing the. First Lord of the
Tresury in his place, he wished to ask whether, after
Mr. Duffy had been prosecuted three times, it was ,the
intention of Government to institute a fourth action, and
if so, whether it was the intention of Government to
lay the account of the costs of the prosecution on the
table.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.)
Sir G. GREY said he was to be brought up again Si
the next Commission.

Mr. HUME hoped then that the House should have
an account of the expenses of the next prosecution.
IRISH RAILROADS.

Sir H. W. BARRON said, that before Easter a depu-
tation bad waited on the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government with regard to certain advances made
to Irish railroads, and the Noble Lord stated that he
would after Easter make known to the House what the
determination of her Majesty's Government should
be on that question. The Noble Lord bad'
mated that certain advances should be made to
some railroads, and for drainage and arterial drainage,
and he (Sir H. W. Barron) wished to ask what sum would
be advanced for those purposes, and when the subject
would be brought before the House, inasmuch as there
was an increasing distress in Ireland, and great numbers
of the population out of employment.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, with regard to the sub-
ject of an advance for the purpose of arterial drainage
in Ireland, it would not be long before he stated a pro-
posal to the House. It was necessary, however, that
the House should proceed with the rate in aid before he
brought that other question before the House.
THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.
0.1 the order of the day "having been read for the
third reading of the Navigation Bill,
Mr. BERESFORD presented a petition from the
tenant-farmers of a plaoe in Ireland against the repeal
of the navigation-laws.

The Earl of MARCH presented a similar petition
from the tenant-farmers of the county of Sussex.
Mr. RICE presented a similar petition from Dover.
Mr. MOFFATT presented a petition from Derby, in
favour of the repeal of the navigation-laws.—(Hear.),
Mr. LABOUCHERE presented a similar petition
from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Manchester.
Mr. HERMES said he had expected that the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) had risen to make 9
speech, but he was disappointed.—(Hear, hear.) Se(Mr. Ilerries) should have been reluctant indeed on this
occasion to ask for the renewed indulgence of the House,
but for the great importance of the question before it'
He would not address them at any great length:
but he could not but advert to some of the material
topics of the question in moving, as he intended to do
on this occasion, that this Bill be read a third times
this day six mouths.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
This Bill with respect to its details, and all the
peculiar circumstances affecting the different interest'
involved in the question, had been so fully discussed upon
previous occasions that he thought the House would e%'
cuse Lim on the present occasion from entering into the
minute details involved in the question. He conceived
they were now arrived at that point of the proceedings 11,1 i
this most important Bill which required that they should
look at it ou the broadest principles of national policy'
He• conceived this to be a most dangerous measure'
They had now done with columns of figures of the dif'
ference between this company and others—they b°A"
done with the ten folio blue books of evidence—they bit!:
done with all those minor grounds upon which t°'
question must be ultimately decided. The question
must now be dealt with upon the broad grounds. Not
would he, upon that occasion, insist that a great national
marine was the great foundation of the value of the nu":
gatioia-laws. They could, no doubt, produce all thing'
and sell them at a cheaper rate than any other of the
nations; but if they took away that protection t°o
which our artisans were entitled, great injury Owl
not only result to them, but to their employer,:
Having no faith in the expediency of the Bill, the;
could not consent to propose amendments but in Cop',
mittee. The House would observe that the object °:
the Bill was to abolish entirely all navigation-laws; 10I"
had it been simply to amend those laws, the OlT°',
sition might have made sortie suggestions for its
improvement. They had already discussed at consider;
able length the motives which influenced Governmel
in introducing this measure, and he need not say yule i
uoou that point; but he thought that in the intervo,
Which had elapsed since the Opposition had induced
Government to postpone this measure, circumstances
had occurred, which proved beyond doubt that I°e
grounds on which they rested the measure had 01
foundation in truth whatever. Time had shown tbt.t,
the great stream of public opinion was against 11
Canada and North America had protest°.
against it, as had many of the other leadiq
colonies, and the result of ref using the pr
of those pstitions was beginning to be seen in tun
events that were happening in Canada. The House, 11,:f
doubt, would well remember the declaration
ill.
Government upon the introduction of t`'.."
measure, that Canada and the other North .100:i
rican colonies were favourable to it, bi'd
the delay which had occurred had enabled him 101
others to present petitions from Canada, Quebec, Ni°,,.13-:
treal, and the West Indies, denying that the inbnu.
tants of those parts of the British possessions were
,;
at all in its favour, while the same delay
had given the commercial and trading classes of t"0
erother-country an opportnnity of expressing their 05
compromising opposition to it.—(Hear, hear.) Portal
has said, in reply to the communication of the Govern
ment on this subject, that they would not make al
alteration in the institutions of their country, and hop%
that the British Government would not press their Olt
on them, as they must necessarily decline. Next, whti
has Spain said on this matter? Spain has said nothingj
and he should say that if the Government 10111
persevere in passing this Bill, that it would find co 03;
,‘,
derable difficulty in enforcing those states to coniqi
with it. In fact, his firm belief was that they vv°l.l:g
not comply. He would then ask what was the opioL°--d
of the United States of America? The House be.
been informed, on the second reading of the inesenr7,
that there was a disposition on the part of that country
to acquiesce with the British Government; but he feu%
that since that there had been a great change in
feelings of the United States of America, and that I
they were to judge of the speeches of the most ems
pent statesmen of that country, it would be feu°,
that it would be necessary for the Minister to pre
duce more authentic documents than any as ra
produced, before he could believe that the Unite
:
States would part with their constitutional advants,c
and he, therefore, asked for more information on Int
subject. He thought that the Government were bound
to inform the House whether Mr. Bancroft's letter Mei
been confirmed by the subsequent conduct of the 13.0it.0.
States Government, and he should add, that he aPP',I
hended that those reciprocal advantages would be besv-ed
on a sandy foundation. The President of the IJDUO
States, in his inaugural speech, has stated that he !ft°
prepared to introduce such measures as would tend
nd
the advancement of the commerce, agriculture, Pio
manufactures of that country, which declaration (se
deemed worthy of such a statesman; and Mr, Webste.
has declared, in his place in the House of Assemblyi
that Mr. Bancroft should not have acted as he did were
regard to this measure. He wished to hear what west
the opinions of the great commercial body of this Jobs
)mmercial kingdom. The Noble Lord (Lord 0.,b,
Russell) should have accurate information on that s"0,
ject, as he represented the greatest commercial comet 00
nity in the world; and when that community has Ito
called on to express their opinion, he would ask Wfo
was that opinion? Ho would ask the Noble Lord %Tilos
were the opinions of his constituents, and should ~151:0
that ho had no other means of knowing them tf pa
through the numerously and respectably signed petitl,te
that had been laid on the table of the House from 0
constituents against this measure. These petition,
signed by Messrs. F. Baring, C. Baring Young, Fee
derick Cooke, Lawson, Dennison, Small, Master, SP00"03
and Fletcher against this Bill, ought not to be overloolthe
or slighted. And who were these personages?
most eminent merchants in England, in Europe,--,13-d
in tl.e world, and the constituents of the Noble -ngil
(Lord J. Russell). In like manner the most influen:de
merchants of Liverpool, Bristol, Newcastle, Hull, Vire"-t
ford, Belfast, Sunderland, and Glasgow, petitioned agtrlie
it. He knew that it would be said, as it had behol
been said to him, that it was necessary to rePioe
these laws for the carrying out the free-trade Pro
ciple ; but he should say to that, that there 10.9 l
necessary connexion between free-trade and the eerily
of the navigation-laws, as they were Wns.
independent of each other, and that the e,itejr
riment on free trade has not yet been fully tried. -Li-
were told that the nations of the continent would friy
procate trade and commerce. But upon what authlo 00
was this advanced? They had interrogated VII eot
countries, and the answers from those nations 01'"r of
justify the conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) The enew..'o,ol
France did not justify the expectation. From Germs
the answer was, that at some future time the eY-free
might be adopted. The result at home was, that •
trade threw the agricultural and landed interest tee
doubt and dismay, and caused a system of agitatio2l.l3o•
extent of which they could not measure. If they tr"ebei
ened changes for which they were not prepared, olive
were disturbing men's minds, and making them litirivs.
tors. That was really the course they were W 6400
If they persevered in this course they would be
an heft
of indignation at home, and the laughing stock oft" D.
ell t
ebd
enemies and rivals abroad. He moved the Dill
the third time that day six menthe.

Mr. ROBINSON agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, land in Halifax or Nova Scotia, nor up the
r
that the ansaers from foreign nations, in reply to the River St. Lawrence to the Allegheny mountains, nor
invitations addressed to them, amoutitscl to this, that if south of Georgia, and that no barque except the Indien
we repealed the navigation-laws, then we should see , canoe eavioat, d those immense tracts of waters, and
what they would do.—(Heae.) He could not see what that at present a population of 25.000,000, speaking the
commensurate advantaee any foreign countries could English language, inhabited those ferrite:ice, there
give this country. The letter of Mr. Bancroft in the surely could be no doubt of the advantages that must at-
ease of America might serve as a comment; that gentle- tend an unrestricted intercourse between the people of
mart stated that America would reciprocate with this the two countries. The condition of the people of the
country, bat it was well known that America never United States was said to be physically Etna morally he-
meant to give no their coasting trade. With yond that of the people of the United Kingdom. Why
regard to the application of the principle of free- was it so ? Had the people of the United Kingdom de-
trade to agriculture, it was said that the depression generated ? lie could not conceive that they had. And
of that interest was not owing to free-trade, but to when they knew that labour was dearer in the United
other disturbing causes, such as the failure of the States than here, and that every article used in ship-
potato crop, which ho allowed to a certain extent building, except timber and sheathing copper, was dearer
operated in that direction ; but he felt satisfied that also—when it was notorious that their crews were, at all
when these disturbing causes ceased they would still events, as well fed and as well paid as the crews of Eng-
experience depression. There could be no doubt that if lish ships, he thought that they need apprehend no-
these laws passed, although ship building would not stop thing whatever from the competition with the Americans
altogether in this country, still it would be greatly di- in the navigation of the world.—(ll, ar, hear.)
mirushed. No one except Captain Stiring would hold Mr. WALPOLE said that, looking at these naviga-
the opinion that a mercantile navy was not essential to a tion-laws historically, they might he divided into four
military navy. The plan of Captain Stirling was to have periods—from 1815 to 1825, from 1825 to 1835, and from
voluntary enlistment in the navy and a shorter term of 1835 to 1842. Comparine the. tonnage of British vessels
service—of three years. Now, that was altogether im- and the number of men with the tonnage and number of
practicable. His objection to the Bill was that it would men in foreign vessels, they had increased in an equal
throw open to foreigners the direct colonial trade, which ratio during the first period.—(Hear.) The next
he would no more allow them to participate in than he change brought on the reciprocity system of
would suffer them in the coasting trade Mr. Huskis- Mr. Huskisson, and again comparing the relative
son and Lord Cornwallis held the inter-colonial and fish- progress of British and foreign shipping, the con-
ing trade to be essential to the maritime pre-eminence of 1 elusion was, that these reciprocity treaties of Mr. Hus •
this country. Much had been said by gentlemen oppo- I kisser, had been beneficial, and if so, why alter the
site of retaliation. He should like to know what country I system, and do away with the navigation-laws?---(Hear,
could retaliate upon this country without injuring itself. I hear.) There was a. difference between alteration and
There was not one of them which was not more depon- I abolition, and considering the vast amount ct capital
dent on our markets than we were on theirs. Take 1 dependine upon these laws, and considering the small
the case of America, the most formidable rival we had. 1 fractional benefit which would result to consumers of
It appeared that more than half of the entire exports of I sugar, cotton, and wool, they were not justified, econo-
that country were made to the markets of this country. 1 mically, in abolishing these laws. Whether they would
In fact, we had nothing to fear from the retaliation oft materially profit by this proposed experiment was
other countries. Ho wished to do away with monopolies, doubtful. There was a tonnage of four millions, an
if other countries would imitate their example ; but t employment of men and boys to the number of 240,000,
since the time of Mr. Huskisson, now twenty-seven ! and freights amounting to between twenty-five and thirty
years, nothing of that kind had taken place. On looking i millions a year, dependent upon the success of this
over the evidence before the Committee, he found that i measure. The magnitude of the interests affected should
seventeen of the principal merchants, connected with the induce caution, and ho would rather recommend altera-
East and West Indies, Australia, and other parts of the 1 tion than abolition.—(Hear.) If the effect of free trade
world, one and all declared, that they never found the I was not applicable to international carriage, although
least difficulty in obtaining freights at moderate prices. it might be to internal barter, the responsibility which
He was for forty years a merchant in the city of London, \ the promoters of this measure took upon themselves was
pretty actively engaged, and he could also testify to great. He now came to that part of the question which
that fact, notwithstanding the new-fangled notions which ! was most important. Last year Government brought on
had sprung up in this country of late years on that and the measure upon evidence which was most important,
other portions of their commercial system. The 1 and, as regarded the national defences, they relied solely
Manchester gentlemen thought every thing was I upon one witness, Sir James Stirling. Was that the
to be sacrificed in order to set them and way to deal with a law which had been in existence for
their spinning jennies at work—(A. laugh)—but he 150 years? The proposed measure would endanger
could tell them that every year the great commercial I their national marine, and a national marine was the
States of America were rivalling them more and more, I foundation of national greatness.—(Hear.) According
either by drawing away their best artisans, or copying 1 to the evidence of Sir Byam Martin, the dockyards could
their works, and even France and Italy were not only not supply a sufficient number of shipwrights, and upon
supplying themselves with articles independently of Eng- an emergency they were obliged to have recourse to
land, but determined to keep up a system of protection. private dockyards. Skilful shipwrights were absolutely
He should give the measure every opposition in his i necessary, if they meant to keep their navy in a state of
power, and ardently hoped that it would be rejected by I efficiency. He then referred to the manning of the fleets,
the Legislature. i and to the evidence of naval officers, to prove that the
Mr. M`GREGOR would not have obtruded himself i victory of the Ist of June could not have been gained
upon the House on the present occasion were it not that i had it not been for the drafts of seamen from the mer-
be represented one of the greatest shipbuilding towns in chant service. It was asked, however, by Gentleman on
the empire, and one of those most interested in cos- / the other side, " Well, but will you keep your laws as
merce. In entering upon the discussion of this measure they are ?" His answer would be that if there were de-
he must begin by saying that he did not complain of I fects in the existing navigation-laws, let them apply a
what the measure did for foreign ships, so much 1 remedy, which could be done without destroying the
as of what it left undone for foreign ships. He was far I law. They were about to repeal the navigation-laws
from entertaining the opinion which others did, that dis- altogether, and allow the ships of foreign states to trade
estrous consequences would ensue from the passing of with British ports. Now, instead of doing so, he would
this Bill. At the same time he wishel that every re- retain the laws, and, under the power spit' relaxation,
striction and burden which it imposed upon British ship- I would enter into treaties with favoured nations, to give
owners should be removed, and he alluded to that clause them certain advantages. He could not consent, by his
especially which restricted British shipowners from man- vote, to hazard an empire which hal been gained by so
zing their ships its any way they thought best for their much valour, and preserved by so much wisdom, which
own convenience and advantage. He believed that was was more extensive than both the Americas, which had
the only clause in the Bill which he would like to see been cradled in its infancy by the genius of Blake, and
altered. But there were other burdens upon the ship- consecrated in its cuhninatory point by the blood of
owners of this country—he meant the stamps upon ma- Nelson—the empire of the sea.—(Cheers.)
rine insurances on bills of lading, and on other docu- SirJ.GRAHAMsaid, when it was remembered that he
meats and instruments connected with the shipping had had the honour of presiding at the head of theAdmi-
interest. He should also wish to see that law abolished ralty, and that certain Acts were brought forward by
which interfered with the victualling of British ships. him while in that capacity, it would not be matter of
He should also wish to see the lighthouses of this coun • surprise that he should be desirous of expressing his
try put upon the same footing with those in the United t sentiments on the question before the House, especially
States, where the whole were in the bands of the Go- 1 as he had never ceased to take an interest in maritime
vernment, and where their expense did not exceed half 1 affairs. Desirous as he (Sir J. Graham) was that this
their amount in this country. If these restrictions were ' measure should pass into law, he could not but regard it
removed he feared no competition with other countries. as an auspicious omen that it should be brought in by
lie would go further, and say he could not discover that the First Minister of the Crown, and the Member for
the navigation-laws had at any one period been of ad- the City of London.—(Hear, hear.) Reference had been
vantage to the British shipowner and British shipbuilder. made to petitions on the subject, and the name of Baring
Mere than that, from their establishment up to 1815, had been mentioned. He looked on the opposite side of
this country had during the greater part of the time the House, and he saw on the Treasury Bench the head
been engaged in war with other countries, and dur- of the Barings, and who had had the honour of being
tug that whole period they were actually break-I appointed by her Majesty to preside over the navy
ing the navigation-laws, for they captured ships
from the enemy, and then it was considered that of England—(Hear, hear)—a man of forethought,
I of extended views and of determination, and he could
they strengthened the power of this country by
regis-t e not think that gentleman would give his assent
tering them as British ships. Now he could no
to a measure which would have the effect, as some
that there was the least difference between the Britishse anticipated, of injuring the commerce and the naval
shipowner being allowed to buy a foreign ship and regis•
ter her as a British vessel, and the British navy captor- power of this country.—(Hear, bear, and cheers.)
her registered He then looked to the feeling exhibited in the outports,
ins a foreign ship in war, and then having
With regard to our Norh American colonies, it was re- and how did the Members for Liverpool vote, and also
the Members for Glasgow? Why they voted for the
markable that every subject of discontent between those
colonies and this country had reference to the restlic- Bill.—(Hear, hear.) When a wish was expressed that
commerce would speak, he would remark that the opinion
tions on trade, which lasted up to the period of the de of the trade and commerce of the country was to be
claration of war. He saw no reason now why they should. taken from the representatives. He would now turn to
dread cempetition with foreigners. In the case of neu- the speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
tral ports, such as Porto Rico, Cuba, and the Brazils he s p e), who had treated the subh under three ge•
found that British ships contended anccessrully wittAhe nWeraall 'bleeds, namel , historical,'. economical, and national.
'hips of every other country except those of Spain in the He (Sir James Grayham)woudfol vomitlo hiS example, and
Sganish colonies, which gave a preference to Spanish first as to the historical part of the question. On that
sieges, by allowing a drawback of 33 1-3 upon the duties point he thought it was sufficient for him to go back to
on goods imported in Spanish vessels. But on the i the period of the consolidation of the laws in the reign
other hand, England had her revenge with respect to of Charles the Second. He looked to the origin of the
Spain; for he found that those high duties were not law in that narrow mercantile system which proceeded
equal to the advantages we possessed, in being able to on the principle, that what one nation gained must be
send goods into Spain by way of Gibraltar. gained at the expense of another. That was a principle
With regard to competition with the different countries which he thought was exploded, but it would seem from
of Europe, he would begin with Sweden and Nor- the course now pursued, that there was some attempt to
Way. Comparing their ships with British ships, he found I renew it.—(Hear, hear.) It had been alleged that the
that every article which entered into the constitution of effect of the Act of Charles the Second was to revive
a. British ship, paid no duty except on the little foreign , commerce. Now, he believed, that almost immediately
timber that entered into her construction, while the ' after the passing of the Act in 1670, Roger Cook pub-
Swedish ships paid duty upon their cannon, their anchors, lished a tract for the purpose of proving that the passing
their cordage, their copper sheathing, and often came of the navigation laws had operated to drive the trade
over to this country very slenderly equipped, in order to to Russia and Finland, and greatly to diminish the trade
obtain the principal part of their rigging and stores here. of the country. Another writer (Child) wrote a treatise,
It so happened that wo had full and entire reciprocity showing that these laws had the effect of destroying the
with Sweden, Denmark, and Norway, before the nevi- Baltic trade. Another writer on the subject, in 1750,
gation-laws existed. It was true that there were more said that the intention of the navigation-laws was to add
Swedish than British ships employed in the trade, but to the number of seamen and to increase the tonnage of
that was because our importations consisted of manufac- the shipping, but the reverse had been the fact.—(Hear.)
tured goods, which required small tonnage, while the • He would now refer to the great authority, on which so
return cargoes were of great bulk, which made it not much reliance was placed—Adam Smith, speaking from
worth the while of British vessels to engage in the trade. memory, and taking the whole of the passage to which
But their ships had not greatly increased over ours, for his Learned Friend (Mr. Walpole)
at Adamhehadreferrsed,ith w
be-
hea found that nearly the same proportions existed lieved he was right in saying
in 1702 as now. With regard to the Hanse of opinion that the naeigetion-laws were inimical inTmicaltos
Towns, they had always allowed the ships of commerce.—(Hear, hear.) He laid down the doctrine
every country in the world to come into their har- that the greater the number of tellers, the greater
hours with any cargo, not even imposing light-house would be the number of buyers ; but the effect of
duties upon them. And how did British ships the navigation-laws was to do the reverse. Under their
stand at Hamburgh? He found that there had been operation they bought in foreign markets dearly, and
a gradual increase of British shipping, and that, taking sold cheaply. On the economical part of the question,
one year with another, they amounted to one-third of the Newton of politics, as Adam Smith had been called,
the whole tonnage in that part. Then with regard to was against his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Walpole).
Prussia. Their ships were much on the same footing He would now come down to the period of the relaxation
With Sweden. Their exportations also consisted of of these laws. Towards the period of 1824 and 1825 the
cargoes of heavy bulk, which made it not worth the pressure upon the commerce of the country became ex-
while of British ships to engage in the trade. But he cessive, and it was therefore a question whether Govern-
did not find that Prussian ships entered largely into ment should relax the operation of these laws, or whether
competition with British ships where there were no navi- they would permit the country to be excluded from the
gation•laws, such as Cuba and Porto Rico. By a refer- markets of Europe. Its such a state of timings the relax-
once
the departures
trade returns for the past quarter, ho found alien was forced upon them; it was not a matter of choice,
thae departures of British ships for various ports not and although the shipping interest was opposed to it, the
British were constant and frequent. In Holland, British measure was carried. But still in the abstract he could
ships were subjected to no higher port charges than not attach much importance to this system of recipro-
Dutch vessels. Freedom of trade and from the re- city, becatozo it made the interest of others the measure
striction of navigation-laws had been the rule in the of their own. He had another objection to clause
Lew w Countries from ,tho establishment of their power which it contained.. a e
If reciprocity or retaliation
e
to the present time ; and if Holland prospered and grew were to be the general rule, ho for one
great under a system of perfect free trade, he could not should any it was much better to leave
conceive why any other country, with equal energy, the navigation-laws as they were, and not act on any
equal enterprise, equal advantages, and positive and such principle. Retaliation appeared to him to be this,
equal economy, might not dey competition with that because some foreign nation did that which was
every country on earth.—(Hear.) In the Dutch settle- more injurious to hermit than to them, in a spirit of
ments in Java and Batavia the English had not the same blind
esto passiontheyproceeded to do that which was more
advantages as the Hollanders; but the reason was that themselvesinjurious
ae rle he
than to others.—(:tear, hear.)
a
we subjected the produce of our Indian possessions to To retaliation, was opposed, but he was
double duties. Let England remove the restrictions prepared to give his assent to this Bill, because, upon
upon the trade of Holland with British India, and he the whole, he was of opinion that, consideriindg the large
Was certain the Dutch would permit English vessels to amount of capital which this countr?rtisceolilts engage in
trade with Java and Batavia upon equal terms with them- maritime speculations--considering advantages
selves. In Belgium there was the same desire to reci- and superiority on the sea, he was satisfiedg that any
procates As to France, he should say that the present sure which added generally to the commerce of the weld
would have the effect of' enlarging greatly the commerce
wor
commercial and maritime policy of the country was
extremely illiberal. The arrangements entered into of this country, and that the lion's share would fall to
between Mr. Pitt and the then French Ministry, in their lot. In other respects the measure would be advan-
-1793, were the most liberal over known. But the tageous, for the number of seamen would be increased, and
breaking out of the war put an end to thht state of commerce, in its numerous branches,increased. Every pea-
things, on that existed in 1825 for the repeal of these lawseix-
and it had never since been thoroughly restored. s
In Genoa the moat liberal maritime policy prevailed. isted at the present time with at least equal force.
With Rome and Tuscany nothing could be more He could not regard with indifference the invitations
loweliberald. The kingdom of the Two.Sicilies al- they had received from foreign Powers.—(Hear.) He
British ships to trade on
exactly the would not again trouble the House with the passage from
same terms as their own. In the ports belonging the Prussian Minister's letter of 1847, but he considered
i
• to Austria on the Adriatic our vessels were allowed that unless they proceeded to make further relaxations,
to enter on the same terms as Austrian. If he went the exact type of their measures would be adopted by
further he should point to Turkey, where no restric- Prussia, and all their restrictions be returned by retalia-
tions whatever existed. And as to Russia, there our lion. They treated America with greater severity than
' Vessels were allowed to enter their ports from all coup- she treated them. Their treaty with Russia would
tries in the world exactly on the same footing as Ras- expire in 1851, and if they had any desire to continue
their conditions must be pe-
on ships. He had thus gone through all the countries their terms of friendship
reUatnaedStatheusththade
- innet_he continent of Europe, and shown that in every viewed. As to the United States, it was not necessary
~Vlee they treated the British much better than the to have any treaty with them.
tonGe
"ith treat them; whilst, with re and to their power of a law with respect, nos only_ Britain, .
Zloiltir.t.ending withtreat
at issue, whatever was granted
us in shipbuilding, they might do so. if world at large, that, with the exception of the coasting
than skilful and more economical trade, which was not now
J P3,4Be:sed people more s
should be granted _ ,
chew the people of England. For they had labour by another country
• In the evidence given last year
at once, and as of
per, whilst our only advantage lin having a right, to those countries.
eau
leas eh ter •they had, and
r quality of timber than at a . reference to the states
price. Upon the subject of timber, he should only presented by a witness with
Eareal and
before the Committee, there was a most important view
y that he hop dto see the duty entirely removed from of the Zollverein. There was a g .
• • °alt. At the e 'Hounded apprehension, that I
close
hi risk of tiring the House, he mild not certainly we • ion-laws,
the figour of their navigation-laws,
itself
the s observations without alluding to the United adhered to to extend itself
f they
Of America.
the great Ca. He took a much , higher view of it woe
other places. There was a
le sheet republic than as a mere opponent of England. to Hamburgh, Bremen, and
world become part of its olicy
ene wished to see established between the United States passage in a speech delivered by Mr.
and couldsay upon
ao_
.England all the bonds of social and material alli- which contained, in brief, all that he
.e
Huskisson in 1826,
tzrlie wished them to be considered as a people of this subject, and which appeared. to him to containthe
"" mine origin as the English, a people to a great ex- fate of this argument. Everytent
was a cheek
professing the same religion, and up to a very laws offered the free course of trade
re- to s
cent •
period possessing a common history. In their upon its growth and the magnitude of that power on
impediment which these
schools
ofEngland, and
the same lessons were taught as in those which their naval magnitude depended. The real quea-
'4"giand. and by their fire sides mothers instilled into I tion was this—would the repeal of the navigation-laws
their children's minds the same moral instruction. An I injure their commercial marine, which was the mainstay
theunreatricted maritime and commercial alliance between lof the Royal Navy? If he thought there were any
should not
English and the United States was of far more im- 1 serious apprehg-nsions arising on that point he
Porta/I,e than it
was , • an it would be with any other. When it vote for this Bill but not entertaining a doubt upon it
. considered
single British
d that in the year 1759 there was not a , he had made up his mind to support it.—(Hear, hear.)
merchant who possessed an acre of His Right Hon, Friend the Member for Oxford had laid
A

down two principles, both of which be maintained
with consummate ability—first, that commerce was the
foundation of the commercial marine; and, secondly,
that ships did not create commerce, but followed
it. When they gore facility to tee free importation of
corn in 1847, a difficulty erne. upon fhe eperatien of the
navigation-laws, but they were ultimately suspended
with regard to corn. The suspension produced the eff:ct
which was intended, by diminishing the price of all the
corn incident upon a large importation. And were
Prussia, Russia, and America the earth rs? So far from
thtir being so, the ships of Great Britain imported it in
a much larger ratio than those of any other countries;
and as to the number of British seamen, returns showed
that they had increased during the interval. The ab-
surdities which prevailed in these laws with respect to
the prohibitions of importations from certain ports
abroad constituted some of the principal objections to
them. Thus, a merchant could not bring a cargo of
cochineal from the Canary Islands, because they were
deemed, for all the purposes of the Act, to he a part of
Africa. So with regard to an importation of Ma-
deira wine from Lisbon. Then, again, Bordeaux
was the greatest emporium of dyes and gums, the
produce of the French territory of Senegal; yet the
merchant could not bring over the smallest quantity of
them.— (hear, hear.) The same rule applied also to
Antwerp, Amsterdam, Rolland, awl all the Orientaland
Dutch goods; and be was satisfied that the impediments
to the free course of trade, as experienced by the mer-
chants of this country under the navigation laws, con-
stituted a loss to them which must be compensated for
by charging extra prices to the consumer.—(Hear,
hear.) So that the indirect effect of these restrictions it
was impossible to estimate.—(Hear, hear.) Passing
from merchants to manufacturers, the Hoe. Member for
Manchester wee anxious, on behalf of his constituents,
for the growth of cotton in India. The native Indians
fought their battles iu the field, with a heroism which
rendered them not unworthy of an alliance with British
soldiers. Hindoo seamen and lascars, when a full com-
plement of men could not be obtained, helped to man
their ships, but had to be sent back to India at the ex-
pense of the consignee, because the laws did not recog-
nise them as British seamen.—(Hear, hear.) Let them
take the instances of wool and copper from Australia, or
of cotton from New Orleans. It frequently happened
that when the demand in Great Britain for these com-
modities was intense, the navigation-laws stepped in and
offered an impediment, while the importation was most
desirable. Their manufacturers were in this way placed
under great disadvantages, but the law did not stop
there. It imposed still greater ones. It allowed fre-
quently an importation of the manufactured, but not of
the raw material. Thus, they would not allow the im-
portation of foreign woods from Europe, though they
allowed it when made into furniture, very mischievously
to the interests of the manufacturer in this country.—

(Hear, hear.) With regard to the effect on the Colo•
nies, the Honourable Member for Stamford had objected
that the colonies had not remonstrated generally. He
thought that Australia had remonstrated, Ceylon cer-
tainly had, and Trinidad for very cogent reasons. Ja-
maica, a year or two ago, was well known to have
done so.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) And from what
had since taken place, there seemed to be no reason to
doubt that it intended to do so.—(Hear.) It appeared
to him that no time should be lost in passing the Bill;
because as it was not possible to retain the Canadas, for
instance, by unnecessary restraint, having placed their
produce in the market on terms of equality with that of
America, if they did not put their means of importation
on the same equality, they must not b© surprised to find
them availing themselves of any means of resistance
they had. Mr. Bancroft, in his history of the American
States, said that the navigation-laws contained the seeds
of American independence. Mr. Huskisson confirmed
that opinion, and illustrated it by another topic, viz., the
resistance made by the Irish to the attempt to put Ireland
under this navigation lew; so odious and degrading did
they consider the exemption in reference to themselves.
That was a warning which they would do well to keep
in mind. He would now briefly inquire whether
these laws were favourable to shipping. First, the
shipowner was prevented from making repairs at a
foreign port beyond the rate of 20s. per ton ; and there
were several enactments, vexatious in their operation,
with respect to operatives. The British sailor did not
derive benefit from them, on the contrary, he would im-
prove his condition by that repeal. He was convinced
that seamen would receive higher wages after the repeal,
and that in other respects his situation would be more
tolerable. There remained now only the British cone
sumer to consider, in speaking of the probable results of
this measure. As a consumer of luxuries, the price to
him of tobacco, spirit, &e., was enhanced. Upon the
whole, looking at the great classes of this community,
he was convinced that these navigation-laws were not
conducive to their interest.—(Hear.) At one time it
appeared desirable that British shipping should be built
at Bombay, in relation to:economy, the:rate of wages being
extremely low there ; and when he had the honour
of being connected with the Admiralty, he recollected
the question arose, whether it would be cheaper to build.
ships in England or at Bombay; and it was resolved, all
things considered, that it was cheaper to build them in
England. In the carrying trade their shipping was all
over the world, and in Ham burgh, in 1847, the number
of British ships was double those of Hamburgh and Bre-
men. In 1821 the British shipping in foreign ports was
64 per cent., and by a recent return it increased from 64
to 83 per cent. He did not agree with an Hon. Friend
of his in the views which he took of this subject in rela-
tion to considerations of economy, holding as he (Sir
James Graham) (lid, that monopoly in shipbuilding was
as objectionable as any other description of monopoly.—
(Hear.) He could not but refer to the opinions of Mr.
George Young on this subject. That gentleman had
said that he felt convinced that the capital employed in
shipping had produced a smaller amount of return for the
last 25 years, than in any other branch of industry
in this country; and his Right Honourable Friend,
the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries), had
said, if e=ver a change were to be made, that the present
was the time to make it. Now, coals were imported
into this country duty free; cotton was imported into it
duty free; wool was imported into it duty free; every
article of first necessity was imported into it duty free;
the trade with China was extended; and, if wages were
diminished, it should not be forgotten that, coincidently
with those things, the price of every article of food was
diminished. He (Sir James Graham) therefore said,
there never was a time when a change could be made
with less injury to the shipping interest. In the whale
fishery, it appeared that they had exhausted the Arctic
se;s, and a gentleman who had been engaged largely in
that trade—Mr. Enderby—was about to betake himself,
on considerations of saving, to the Antarctic regions, and
to locate himself there, and to strike and ply his har-
poon in the frozen seas. So much for the state of the
shipping interests. Hon. Gentlemen, and more par-
ticularly the Member for Stamford, had stated that
the proposed measure would prove fatal to agri-
cultural and commercial interests, and one Hon. Gentle-
man had said that the working classes would suffer ex-
tremely by it. Now, if that was the opinion of those
Gentlemen, he could not for a moment account why they
did not at once bring the question before the House.—
(Hear,hear.) If it was necessary to retrace their steps,
why such delay? The Right Hon. Baronet having re-
ferred to opinions delivered by Lord Stanley on the first
evening of the session, in opposition to the doctrines and
measures of free trade—doctrines against which the
Noble Lord protested—and against which he called upon
those who thought with him to make their election, re-
marking, that he was the uncompromising supporter of
protection, proceeded to say, that the measure which
the House was now discaseing was the necessary
column to the capital of the measure of free trade; here
issue was joined, and here the struggle must take place,
between reaction on the one hand and free trade on

the other. He was now dealing with the political views
of the question, and all those historical and economical
views of it were, in his mind, as light as dust in compa-
rison; and so tar from regretting the part which he had
taken in the matter and advancement of free trade, he
most firmly believed that the peace and tranquillity of
this country and the safety of their institutions, in the
year just past, were attributable to the measure to which
he had just alluded.—(Hear, hear.) Ile was satisfied
that the idea of going back to protection would, if at-
tempted to be put into practice, prove a dangerous expe-
riment, leading to inevitable convulsion and its conse-
quences. At all events, his part was taken; he was
opposed to reaction and favourable to progress, and on
those grounds it was that he should give his most un-
qualified support to the measure now before the House,
and expressed a hope that it would be successful.—( Hear,
hear, and enthusiastic cheers, amidst which the Right
Hon. Baronet resumed his seat.)
Mr. T. BARING agreed that it was necessary to
apply practical remedies to practical grievances. As
one of the mercantile classes, he felt that restrictions
were injurious to trade, and that it was a desirable object
that tho importing merchants should have the liberty of
importing what they thought proper. The difficulties
of the question were very great. The Hon. Member
referred to a treaty which we entered into with Austria,
the operation of which was much to the disadvantage of
the shipping interest of this country, and said the ques-
tion now was, whether the repeal of the navigation-laws
was desirable and necessary. It had been said that the
colonies had memorialised in favour of repeal; but he
denied that—he denied that the Mauritius and several
other colonies had,memorialised for it; and with respect
to what had been said in relation to the feeling
of the West Indies on the subject, he was glad to
say that a change had taken place in the state !of opi-
nion there.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to Portugal,
Prussia, and Russia, he must say that he did not regard
their threats in relation to the maintenance of the navi-
gation-laws;
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sessed of advantage, and the granting unto those
who had nothing to lose and nothing to give, facilities
in carrying on trade in a spirit of competition against
them. Sweden, for instance, was one of those powers.
Let us take Holland next. What does she give? The
trade with Java is in the hands of a commercial com-
pany, and they might decline agreeing with the propo-
sition of this Government—yet England could not
refuse Sweden or Holland the terms of this Bill. He
was free to admit that much benefit would accrue to
this country if the United States would coincide, accord.
in,/ to the representation of Mr. Bancroft, with the pro-
doubt.
positions of the Government; but the contrary is now
placed beyond His opinion, andhebelieved
the cmitnhtarty,owleasmaegracian,satiltehims measure,arine,
th eangdrehaet,
hoped ,
who were determined to support the
therefore,
lfoliruefwark of the nation, would not be totally over-
looked pi n ion
be;
d—lf I feel any difficulty in
Lord J. RUSSELL sat
those
third reading of this Bill..
addressing the House upon the present occasion, it