The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-02 00:00:00

the island in question might be carried into effect with
the utmost possible dispatch, Considering that the Hon.
Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cob-
den) was so intimately connected with the commercial
and trading interests of Lancashire, he (Mr. Labouchere)
was surprised that he bad thrown a doubt upon the
sincerity of the motives of such an eminent and re-
spectable body as the Manchester Chamber of Com-
merce.—(Hear, hear.) The mercantile community of
this country had generally agreed in recommending that
Labuan should be taken possession of as a colony by
Great Britain; and, as a Member of the Government, he
concurred iu the recommendation.

Mr. COBDEN, notwithstanding what had been said
by the members of the Government, still retained the
opinion that the Government establishment at Labauu
was extravagant and profligate; and he, therefore, could
not sanction the vote under consideration. Ho com-
plained that he had had no answers to the questions put
by him to the Under Secretary for the Colonies.
Mr. HENLEY expressed his dissatisfaction at the ex-
planations given by Mr. Hawes with respect to the vulue
of Labuan, and wished for more detailed and decisive in-
formation on the subject. Perhaps the Hon. Member
for Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor), who was so will versed in
statistical details, and had such a thorough knowledge of
the question before them, would favour the Committee
with his opinion.
Colonel THOMPSON could not help saying he
thought that mercantile men had great facilities for
getting up experiments when other people had to pay for
them.—(lronical cheering from the Opposition side of
the House.) He did not, however, believe that the
general opinion of the people was in favour of adopting
Labuan as a colony. He trusted that the Committee
would express their opinion upon the question before
them by dividing.
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE in
favour of the vote, and laudatory of Sir J. Brookes,
Mr. SCOTT thought the House was greatly indebted
to the Hon. Member for the West Riding for bringing
the matter under their notice, and also for the manner
—the manly manner—in which he had stated how pe-
titions and memorials were got up in the north of Eng-
land.

Mr. WYLD said, as all that fell from a gentleman
holding the distinguished position filled by the Honour-
able Member for Kinsale would be looked upon as autho-
rity, and as- he had stated that we had not the shadow
of a claim upon any portion of the island of Borneo, he
was anxious to take that opportunity of stating that
there could be no doabt whatever that this country had
a good claim to several portions of that island, although
in abeyance now in consequence of the treaties into
which we had entered.
In answer to Mr. NEWDEGATE,

Lord PALMERSTON said it was well known that

the seas around Borneo swarmed with pirates—(Hear,
hear)—and that they did not sail, as in the Mediter-
ranean, in ones or twos, but in whole fleets. Accounts
had recently been received that a small fleet had been
seen, and had committed several depredations on the
coasts and rivers of Borneo.—(Hear, hear.) It was the
duty of Sir James Brooke, in conjunctio❑ with the
Commander on the station, to take measures for the
security of the British commerce there. Cruisers had
already been sent to those seas by the Spanish Governor
of the Philippine Islands, and with a view of protecting
our own commerce and that of our customers, it was of
the utmost importance that such wholesale piracy should
be put a stop to, aLd one of the ends contemplated by
the establishment of Labuan was, to put down the abo-
minable system there carried on.
Mr. COBDEN—That was just ono of the evils of
taking possession of the island at all. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Warwickshire already wanted more ships of war
to be sent out to Sir James Brooke, on the pretence of
putting down that piracy which was skid to exist. Now
he repeated that those so-called pirates never did, and
never would, attack a:square-rigged vessel. The people
there were in the same position as the ancient Scanda-
navians; they were nearly in a state of barbarism, and
they were all pirates amongst each other. Was it our
business to send out ships of war to compel the
people to lead civiliz .d lives ?
Mr. MANGLES said the Hon. Member for the West

Riding had gone beyond the mark in his last statement.
He (Mr. M) remernbEred being in the Straits of Malacca
in a 700 ton ship when the demonstration of the pirates
rendered them very much afraid of an attack.
Mr. COBDEN—How many years ago ? I spoke of
the present time.
Mr. MANGLES—It was in 1834 or 1835. The
whole of the commerce of Singapore was carried on in
small vessels, and unless they were protected, even to
the very mouth of the harbour, the trade would be
wholly stopped.
After a further conversation, the vote was agreed to.
13,6541. was then proposed to be granted for defraying
the expenses of the Emigration Board.
In answer to a question from Mr. V. SMITH,
Mr. HAWES said ho hoped the report of the Board
would be laid on the table in the course of next week.
As the work of that Board has so much increased of
late, he had no hope that it could be reduced in number
during the present year.
Mr. SCOTT did not think the board too large for
emigration which took place yearly, but he trusted they
would do all in their power to turn the stream of emi-
gration more towards the British possessions.
Mr. HAWES said, while the passage to Australia
cost so much more than that to America, the great
stream of emigration would flow to the latter country.
In answer to a question from Mr. GROGAN,
Mr. H A.WES said, free passages were paid for out of
the colonial funds, and as they increased or decreased,
so would such passages be granted. The facilities for
emigration would certainly be increased.
Mr. SCOTT must protest against the colonies being
so heavily taxed in order to relieve the mother country
from their pauperism, neither did he think that England
ought to be called upon to bear the burden of relieving
Ireland froni her paupers.
Mr. HINDLEY hoped the Government wculd give
some assurance that they were prepared to take up the
subiect of emigration in a large and comprehensive
manner. There was not a question of greater import-
ance to England. The Government ought to come for-
ward and assist the emigration clubs. Let those clubs
pay one-fourth, the parish or the union one-fourth, the
colony one fourth, and the Government the. other fourth;
then the colonies would be benefited by the labour which
they wanted for the purpose of bringing their laud into
cultivation, while the mother country would be relieved.
Let them not.be afraid of spending a million or two.—

(Oh, oh.) Had they spent the eight millicns they had
thrown away in Ireland— (Hear, hear)—on emigration,
they would have benefited the colonies and done Ireland
some good.
The vote was agreed to.
30,0004 was proposed for maintaining captured negroes
and liberated .Atricans at Sierra Leone.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE said, they had now arrived at a
class of votes which brought the whole case of the slave
trade under the notice of the House. The system now
pursued only added to the misery and cruelty of the
abominable traffic, and had entirely failed in the object
with which it was instituted. He believed that it cost
the country one million sterling per annum, besides the
wear and tear of ships, the expense of which could not
be arrived at. By disagreeing to the vote, they would
show their determination to put an end to a system which
only aggravated the evils it was intended to cure. If the
money were spent on emigration, the country would be
much better satisfied.
Mr. M. GIBSON asked if the mixed Commission
Courts were not placed in a peculiar position at the
present moment ? He thought they coald have nothing
to do at present, as the slave trade was carried on
under the Brazilian flag. The Brazilian ships could not
be condemned by these courts; and he wished to know
whether an arrangement could not be made for lessening
the expense ? It was now, he believed, at least 25,0001.
a year.

Lord PALMERSTON said it was quite true the
greater part of the slave trade was carried on under
the Brazilian flag, still there was some portion of the
trade carried on under the Spanish 111 g, and
some under no flag ; and if these courts ceased to
exist, some ships could not be condemned. His Hon.
Friend would perceive that he had acted on the sugges-
tion thrown out last year; and that he had left vacant
several of the appointments, so as to reduce the expense
by 6,0001. a year. He was also in communication with
the Court of Portugal to reduce the expenditure, and
would omit no opportunity that m;ght offer for re-
ducing it.
Mr. M. GIBSON suggested that there should be a
return made of the ships seized. Ile wished to know
when a return would bo forthcoming?
Lord PALMERSTON said returns were made from
time to time of the ships seized.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 16,850/. for salaries and expenses of
the mixed Commission Courts, was agreed to.
98,6901., to complete the sum necessary for the corms
lar establishments abroad, were next proposed.
Mr. HENLEY observed they had not yet got rid of
Hong-Kong. The salary for superintendent he per-
ceived was included in that of governor. They had a
consul, too, though it was not usual to keep a consul in
one of their own colonies. There was then a secretary,
and a second assistant keeper of records. There was a
cost of 25,000/., and salaries amounting to 4,600/. for the
consular service.
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the same person
who acted as governor was superintendent to the consu•
lar establishment in China, and had tocommunicate with
consuls in five different ports.
Mr. SCOTT objected to the payment of an interpreter
at .Canton, when they had so great a linguist there as
Dr. Bowring.
Mr. MITCHELL objected to the payment of two se-
cretaries.
Lord PALMERSTON replied that one secretary was
engaged in consular business, and another secretary was
employed in other duties.
Mr. HINDLEY wished to know by what rule the sa-
laries of consuls was fixed, as they differed so mueh from
each other?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the amount of
salary depended upon a variety of considerations—the
importance of the duties, the rank of the officer, the ex-
pense of the place, its healthiness or unhealthiness, and
many other considerations. He had looked over the list
with great attention, and had endeavoured to apportion
the salary to the duties.
In reply to a question from Mr. GROGAN,
Lord PALM ERSTOi said it was quite true the
salaries in China were arranged on a very high scale.
All the salaries under the East India Company were on
a high scale, but ho hoped ho would be able to reduce
them considerably.
Mr. HENLEY said that the consular establishments
in China were a comparatively new creation; and if the
consuls in other parts of tbo world saw that the consul-
general to China had an outfit they would expect one
also. In his (11Ir. Henley's) opinion the outlay for an
outfit Ras altogether unreasonable, especially in a ease
like this, where the consul was paid so high an amount
for his expenses.
AlinEY saiti that the vote WAR objectionable,