The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-28 00:00:00

JULY 28, 1849.

Mr. F. FRENCH supported the proposition of the
Noble Lord for agreeing to the Lords' amendments, be-
lieving that those amendments were in accordance with
the wishes of the Irish people.
The amendments, omitting clauses 1 and 2 of the Corn •
mons' Bill, and inserting clause 5, were then agreed to.
Clause 6 was disagreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL proposed that they should agree
to the Lords' amendment, omitting clause 10, as they
had omitted the clause imposing a maximum rate.
Sir H. W. BARRON thought the clause ought to be
restored. The property rated to the support of the poor
was quite insufficient to carry out the principle at-
tempted. He begged to move that they should disagree
to the amendment.

Mr. SADLIER urged the Hon. Baronet not to press
he House to a division.

Mr. O'FLAHERTY thought the annuitants ought to
pay their proportion of the rate.
Mr. W. H. BROWN withdrew his amendment, and
the Lords' amendment was agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that they should
agree to the Lords' amendment, inserting clause 10 of
tne Lords' Bill, with an amendment omitting the word
" resident" in line 6, page 8.
Mr. AUGUSTUS STAFFORD moved the omission
of the clause.

After a short discussion, in which a number of Mem
bers took part,

Mr. AGLIONBY said it seemed to him, after the
conflicting opinions he had heard expressed by the
Irish Members, that the best thing they could do would
be to omit the clause altogether.—(Hear.)
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause ... ... ... 60
Against it ... ... 25
Majority ... ... —35
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Sir G. GREY moved disagreement with the Lords'
amendments omitting clauses 16, 17, 18, and 19. Ha
hoped the House would agree to retain these clauses.
After some discussion the House divided, when there
appeared in favour of the Lords' amendments to omit

clauses 16, 17, and 18—
Ayes ... ...
Noes ... ...

Majority ...
•

... 22

-59

Lord J. RUSSELL; moved to agree to Lords' amend-
ment, inserting clause 18 of Lords' Bill, which was agreed
to; as was clause 19, with a verbal amendment.
It was then agreed to insert clauses 20 and 21 of the
Lords' Bill.

On the motion to disagree with the Lords' amend-
ment, inserting clause 22 of the Lords' Bill, some dis
cussion took place as to the difficulty of obtaining infor-
mation as to.the rating under the clauses.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated, that by the
17th Geo. 11. every ratepayer had a right, on the pay-
ment of a specified sum, to have a copy of the rate book,
but this clause did not provide for such a copy, and only
gave the power of obtaining an account of what was due
front each ratepayer. In order to do this the rate-books
would have to be taken from the collector, and thus the
collection of the rates would be stopped.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but the motion
to disagree with the clause was ultimately carried with-
out a division.

The Lords' amendments, inserting clauses 23, 24, and
25 of the Lords' Bill, were agreed to.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved to disagree with the
Lords' amendment inserting clause 27 of the Lords' Bill.
A conversation arose, in the course of which
Sir G. GREY stated that the clause would open the
door to c')llusion between the boards of guardians and
ratppayurs, by which the rates for emigration might be
substituted for the rates intended for the bone fide. sup-
port of the poor. The rate for emigration was intended
to be additional, not supplementary, to the poor rate.
The motion was ultimately agreed to without a divi-
sion, as was clause 29 of the Lords' Bill.

On the motion to agree to so much of the Lords'
amendment, inserting clause 30 of the Lords' Bill, as
was contained in the proviso, commencing line 10 of page
18, and ending line 31 of the same page, and to disagree
with the rest of the clause.

Colonel DUNNE declared his intention to divide the
House against the whole clause.

After a desultory discussion,

Sir H. W. BARRON said he should support the Hon.
and Gallant Member (Colonel Dunne), for this clause
was distinct and different from the English law.
Mr. MONSELL supported this opinion.
The House then divided:—
For first part of clause 30 ...
Against it

... 100
... 26

—Majority for agreeing to first part V 74
Colonel DUNNE moved that the House divide on the
31st clause

The division took place, when there appeared—
For the disagreement on this clause... 103
Against it ... .. ... ... 24
• Majority for Lord J. Russell ...-79
The 32d clause of the Lords' Bill was also disa•
greed to.
The 33d clause of the Lords' Bill was agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

TILE HUNGARIAN REFUGEES.—On Monday evening
next the members of the Apollonic Society will give a
Miscellaneous Concert, in the hall of the Literary
Institution, John-street, Fitzroy-square, in aid of the
fund now being raised for the Hungarian Refugees at
Folkstone, on which occasion they will be assisted by
the following ladies and gentlemen, who have generously
given their services:—Miss Norman, Miss Leslie, and
Mrs. Jennings ; Mr. H. E. W. Bonner, Master
Frank Bonner, and Mr. J. Dobson Collet. The
Hungarian Singers will also be present, and perform
several of their celebrated national songs and chorusses,
being their last appearance in London previous to their
departure for Ireland.
SUDDEN DEATH.—An inquest was held on Wed-
nesday, before Mr. Wakley, in the library of Middlesex
Hospital, respecting the death of Mr. John Robinson,
aged 67, of Nuneaton, Warwickshire, a gentleman pos-
sessed of great wealth, including large estates in the
counties of Leicester, Warwick, and Stafford, who died
suddenly in Regent-street, under the following singular
circumstances.—Deceased had arrived in London on
Monday last, in company with Mr. W. Shelton, one of
his tenants. They had during the day visited the Na-
tional Gallery, Westminster Abbey, the Polytechnic,
&c., having only partaken of a pint of sherry between
them. After leaving the Polytechnic, they had proceeded
as far as the Quadrant, when deceased suddenly fell
backwards ; on endeavouring to raise him he was found
to be dangerously ill, and on a police constable coming
up, he was placed in a cab, and conveyed to the above
hospital. On arriving there, from the evidence of Mr.
Corpe, the house surgeon, he was quite dead, doubtless
from disease of the heart, called the breast• pang. Mr.
W. Nason, of Fleet street, surgeon, said he had known
deceased for many years. 'Witness's brother was his
medical attendant. Deceased was a healthy and tem-
perate man, and would, but for this melancholy affair,
no doubt have called upon him. Deceased was subject
to a pain in the breast, with which he was frequently
seized when out shooting or engaged in violent exercise.
There was no reason to suppose that his death had been
other than natural. Two nephews of the deceased,
who were present, concurred in the latter opinion, and
the jury accordingly returned a verdict of " Natural
Death."

beyond description, being saturated with ammonia.
• Even if one-half of what he stated was true, something
, very great was about to be effected, and persons now
owning 100,000 acres of Irish bog would find it far more
6 valuable than the whole region of California. He de-
t sired to state again, that he had the fullest reliance as
to the high character of his informants.—(Hear.)
Mr. P. SCROPE said that if what had been stated
by the Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord opposite
• was true, he should deeply regret his motion for taking
' possession of the waste lands of Ireland had not been
carried, because if they had done so it would have been
easy to pay off the national debt.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to the amendments under consideration, having
opposed the maximum rate, he could not be expected to
regret that it had been rejected by the other House.
But at the same time that being in the estimation of the
Government the best mode of aiding the distressed
unions, he wished to know what was to be done now
that the maximum clauses were struck out. He feared
that as the House had rejected all the constructive and
auxiliary measures ho had proposed, that the striking
out of these clauses would inflict upon these unions a
vast and intolerable amount of misery. His opinions on
this subject had never varied. Twelve years ago he had
predicted what would be the effect of passing such a
poor-law as they had since done, and his predictions had
been fully verified by the actual working of that law.
He felt, thtrefore, justified in calling attention to the
measures he had so °flee recommended, namely, the re-
productive employment of the able-bodied poor in those
permanent improvements, such as arterial drainage and
similar works, which would open up the country to
labour and capital. If two millions instead of two
hundred thousand pounds had been spent on arterial
drainage, it would have been most beneficial, not only to
the people and landlords of Ireland, but also to the tax
payers of England.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE expressed his regret that the Go-
vernment had given up the principle of the maximum
rate. He thought that principle was a just one, and it
certainly did surprise him to find, after supporting that
principle in common with a majority of the Irish Mem-
bers, that the Government had abandoned it. He could
not think this was an amendment on the existing law,
and the conduct of the Noble Lord in first taking the
subject out of the hands of the Irish Members, and then
abandoning the principle of his own measure, certainly
gave him as much surprise as regret. He felt perfectly
satisfied that the workhouse test could not be applied in
Ireland, and that if they were to give up the futile at-
tempt to enforce it, the cost of poor-law administration
would be much reduced. He protested against the with-
drawal of the clause, which contained a principle that
would have been extremely valuable in Ireland.
Mr. H. GRATTAN observed that one thing was per-
fectly certain, namely, the poor-law bad been a complete
failure in Ireland. So far from having had the effect
they anticipated—that of causing landlords to employ
the people—it had had the very reverse effect. Many
landlords had laid down their land in grass which
was formerly arable. They had, in fact, taken away
all stimulus to continue the usual agricultural opera-
tions in Ireland—butter, bacon, wool, and corn, had
follen in price, and they might depend upon it that
they were decidedly mistaken in supposing that the
poor-law would act as a permanent measure of relief.
For his own part, he believed that no measure whatever
would do any good to that country, except the plan he
had so often urged, namely, a resident gentry, living
among the people from whom they drew their rents, and
spending their incomes in encouraging the industry of
the people and the improvement of the country.—(ll2ar,
hear.) He thought the Government would have done
much better if they had withdrawn the Bill altogether,
and have called the Irish Members together, to devise
means for sending back the absentees to Ireland.