The Sun.
London, England, 1825-06-24 00:00:00

SUN.

FRIDAY EVENING, JUNE 24, 1825.

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY, JUNE 23.

This morning their Lordships met at ten o'clock, in a Com-
mittee of Privileges, on the Gardner Peerage, when Mr.
TINDALL, on behalf of Mr. Fenton Gardner, who is opposed
to the claimant, was desirous of delaying the proceedings till
next Session, but their Lordships would not grant further than
Monday next.

ANNANDALE PEERAGE.
Mr. KEAY was called in and heard for the claimant, on
the general import of the evidence which had been adduced,
after which the further consideration was adjourned to next
Session.

Prayers were then read by the Bishop of CHESTER.
The LORD CHANCELLOR now moved their Lordships
for judgment in the Appeal of " Oddy v. Wood," from the
Court of Chancery, which was remitted to settle the question of
interest and costs.
" Newburgh (Earl v. the Countess Dowager" was remitted
to the aforesaid Court ; while the same v. the same in another
case, was affirmed with costs.
Adjourned at four o'clock during pleasure, and at five o'clock
the House resumed.
Mr. Tommxs, from the Treasury, presented an Account of
the Value and Price of American and Baltic Timber imported
to this country.
The Quarantine Laws Repeal Bill, and the British Consuls
Bill, were respectively read a third time, passed, and messaged
to the other House.
JUDGES' SALARIES AUGMENTATION.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose for the purpose of moving
the Order of the Day, upon which their Lordships had been
summoned, for the House proceeding to the second reading of
the Judges' Salaries Augmentation Bill. He should (the
Noble Earl observed) move that portion which related to the
Court of King's Bench in the first instance ; and if any conver-
sation was to be indulged on this Bill, he would rather take it
upon this portion of the measure. He could only say that the
principle of the Bill had been thorougly considered, and it was
deemed important to the administration of justice to augment
the salaries of the Judges. It was unseemly, to say the least,
that the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench should be
supposed to live by the sale of offices held under him ; and it
would be far better to abolish that practice, and also all indirect
means of profit or salary. The present bill went to effect that
object; and there was a complete understanding that not only
sales of offices at present, but likewise that all prospective sine-
cures,
should be abolished, with the exception of those only
(and such offices did not come under the designation of sine. 1
cures) as were performed by the holders or their deputies. It
was, therefore, one great object of this bill to do away with all
sales of offices, and with sinecures, but to give salaries to those
who held efficient offices. It was proposed to allow a salary of
10,0001. a-year to the Chief Justice of the King's Bench, and
5,5001. a-year to each of the Puisne Judges, for less was not
thought proper. If, indeed, their Lordships would consider
the general stage of human life when Learned persons were first
raised to the Bench, the rank in society which it was necessary
for them to maintain, and also the laborious duties they had to
perform, the Puisne Judges could never be considered as at all
overpaid at a salary of 5,500/. a-year. Their Lordships must
look to people in a respectable practice at the Bar when provid-
ing for openings on the Bench, not too far advasiced in life to
benefit by their services, and especially if with families. Ile
would not trouble their Lordships further, but he wished to be
understood as not countenancing patronage to offices that were
not effectual.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN did not rise for the purpose
of opposing the Bill, the principle of which he approved. He
should give an unqualified assent to the impropriety of selling
offices as described in the Bill, and he would agree that the
apportioning of a simple salary to each of the Judges was much
better. He also felt it reasonable and proper to raise the sala-
ries of the Puisne Judges, so as to enable them to maintain the
rank in society they were entitled to hold. Having stated this,
he must notice the remark he had heard, that the retiring pen-
sions of the Puisne Judges were higher in proportion than those
of the Chief Judges. Now, from the moment that any office
was overpaid, from that moment it became an object of solicita-
tion to one side, and of influence on the other side • and this
point was well illustrated by M. Cottu, in his remarks on Ju-
risprudence, when he stated that the french Government was
inexorable in requiring a political identity from the French
Judges. What he feared was, that any raising of salaries in
such a quarter led, directly or indirectly, to the influence which
M. Cottu so well pointed at, and the House ought vigilantly to
guard against it. Another of the objects was to abolish all
fees, and it should also be an object with their Lordships to
abolish the exaction of any new fees hereafter. He considered
this a natural opportunity of calling the attention of the Lord-
ships to the state of judicature in Vales, a subject which had
formerly been taken up by a Noble Friendof his (Cawdor), but
which still remained in the same state, unaltered and unim.
proved, as if no notice had been taken of it. He wished to ele-
vate the character of a Welsh Judge, by keeping the Judges
aloof from Parliament ; but it was notorious that their salaries
were low while their number was great, which circumstances
left men open to temptation, and, of course, not insensible to
influence. He could not understand, when assimilations were
every where 'going- on—in agriculture, in commerce, in cur-
rency, and even in. weights and measures—why assimilation
was to be refusedin laws, and why, unreformed and unassimi-
lated, the judicattfre of the Principality was to be left alone.
He never had heard any sort of reason for such an anomaly, ex-
cept it were the fear of offending that most jealous had irras-
cible of all Princes—the Prince of Wales ! He trusted that

this subject would occupy the attention of the House, though
he had no doubt that-persons of great respectability might sus-
tain the office of a Welsh Judge. With respect to the Bill in-
troduced last year,iie could assert that it had been attended with
very great inconveniences, as it left the business of the county of
Carmarthen to stand over.
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH said, that if the object of the
Bill were chiefly to give a salary of 10,0001. a year to the Chief
Justice of the Court of King's Bench, and a salary of 8,000/.
a-year to the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and embraced
no subordinate points, he would not object to it, but he appre-
hended that it never would go properly to abolish the sale of
offices. With respect to offices, there were absolutely no traces
of an augmentation of fees since the year 1605. As to the ru-
moured sales of certain offices, he hardly could believe they
ever took place as reported; such offices in general were given
to relations ; but if after all there was no objection to sell the
advowson to a living, he could discover no sound objection to
sell an office, one purely ministerial, which belonged to a Court
of Law. But why not follow, in this instance, the remedial
act respecting the Court of Exchequer in Ireland ? He saw no
reason for lowering the proportion as between the remuneration
of the Puisne Judges and others. Let the question be put in
another way. Suppose the Chief Justice of the Court of King's
Bench to become a Peer of Parliament (such instances in point
had occurred, and might occur), he would ask the Noble and
Learned Lord upon the Woolsack, whether such a man, having
a family, with only 10,000/. a-year, would like to sit in that
House' And if net, whether their Lordships might not here-
after be deprived of that assistance they once received from the
luminaries of our jurisprudence ? He must contend, that the
pension which the Bill assigned to the Lord Chief Justice bore
no proportion to that provided for the Puisne Judges. Not to
dwell upon the anomalies in relation to the King's Bench, in
referring to the Common Pleas, as their Lordships might do, it
appeared that the Bill directed the payment of money to the
executors of a man during his natural life. There were other
anomalies, which he hoped to see removed by the Noble Earl
opposite. With regard to the measure, to speak generally, he
was of opinion that the public would derive no benefit from it
all, at any rate, was remote ; and it would have been better if
on this occasion the principle of the Irish Court of Exchequer
Bill had been adopted.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL drew a distinction between
those holding offices, and those who were to succeed to them.
He knew that there existed a right to buy out the possession, as
had been done in the case of Ireland ; but when there was no
mode of settling the value of such offices, it was judged better
to let them expire. With respect to offices held during plea-
sure, this applied to the case of sinecures; and he agreed that
some supplementary measure might be necessary to explain the
present Bill. As to the mode proposed for paying the Judges,
he could only say that the feeling of the times in which we
lived had principally been consulted, as to whether it was not
better that it should be done directly than indirectly, by sales
of offices, and whether the proposed course was not more re-
spectable than the former. Here, then, the question occurred
to what a person holding the high office of Chief Justice of
the Court of King's Bench ought tuhave ; and, even with the
patronage left, it was considered that not less than 10,000/.
a-year ought to be allowed. With respect to the Puisne

Judges, it way considered that 5,500/. a-year was not too
much. He would allow, at the same time, that the retiring
allowance of the Puisne Judges, when compared with the
Chief Justices, was rather high ; but the calculation was made
upon the supposition that the former, and especially if they
had families, could not have saved much ' • and that they ought
to be enabled to retire in time, and not linger in office when
unfit for the discharge of their duties, and to enable them to
advance to the close of life with honour. There was not any
thing done in the present Bill either materially too much, or
materially too little.
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH explained.
Lord CA W DOlt here complained of what had not been
done, rather than of what had been done, in relation to the
Judicature of Wales. He would ask the Noble Earl opposite
how long it was meant to leave the Welsh Judges in the situa-
tion they were in at present ? 4
The LORD CHANCELLOR now understood that the sale
of offices, though much diminished, was left only to the Chief
Justices of the King's Bench and Common Pleas ; and the
sooner it was done with the better. Be did not titink that the
Judges of either of those Courts would wilfully.do wrong, but
the public would not be satisfied till the practice was done away
with ; and as suspicions might be entertained, their Lordships
should remember that they could not keep the fountains of jus-
tice too pure. There was another good reason for doing away
with such sales, which was, -that the persons who purchased
the offices could never be satisfied with alterations in them.—
With respect to the Chief Justices, he thought they were ill-
treated ; they had received no augmentation of salary for ninety
years, according to the bargain made by Parliament for the
public, while the present Bill proposed to take the sale of
offices away from them. Under these circumstances it was
due to those Judges to say, that they had acted as well as if
their salary had been ten times more than it was ; for the
great security we had for the due administration of justice
was, that the eyes of the country were upon the Judges.
With respect to the Puisne Judges, it was better to have per-
sons for those situations who had enjoyed much practice at the
bar, and he could assure their Lordships, that it was very
difficult to procure fit persons, as the law formerly stood.—
With respect to the abolition of sinecures, their Lordships
should take care, before they abolish such offices, that they
really were sinecures; for when the duty of the principal was
done by the deputy, with the liability of the principal, who
employed his deputy, it was no sinecure in the contemplation
of the law. With respect to the Chief Justice of the Common
Pleas, he took it, generally, that the person in that situation
had taken it at a loss of three times as much as he would have
acquired at the bar. As to the office of Lord Chancellor, he
could safely say that the remuneration was not equivalent to
what he once received as a Counsel at the Bar. The income of
Chancellor was not greater than it stood at one hundred years
since. With respect to favours in the way of patronage or
places, if it could be proved that he had exercised this privi-
lege to an extent at all equal to any of his predecessors, he
would willingly stand before the public as convicted and con-
demned. With respect to the Welsh Judges, whose situation
had been referred to by two Noble Lords (Lansdown and Caw-
dor), he must admit that they were ill paid ; but, notwithstand-
ing this circumstance, their conduct was exemplary, and
for one writ of error sent to that House from the l'rincipality,
their Lordships had one hundred writs from the other English
Courts.

Lord CAWDOR explained.
Lord SUFFIELD said he took this occasion to remind their
Lordships of a petition which he presented last year from the
Magistrates of the County of Norfolk, who prayed that the
Assizes might be removed from Thetford to Norwich. He be-
lieved that nine-tenths of the population of the County still
wished for this alteration, and complained of the limitation of
duty so incurred. On the:occasion he alluded to the Noble and
Learned Lord upon the NVoolsack said that he would lay the
matter before the Judges, and he (Lord Suffield) since under-
stood that their answer had been given in:
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that be thought it due
to that respect which was owing to the Magistrates of Norfolk
to have the reasons for the decision of the Judges, relative to
the removal of the Assizes from Thetford, assigned to them.—
He should, however make it his buiiness to refer to the Ma-
gistrates of Norfolk, to whom a communication had been made,
and would in form the Noble Lord of the result. _ _ _

-.-
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was against the removal of the
Assizes in any case, when they oontinued to be held in a small
town, to a large and populous place. Whether this was the
decision of the Judges he knew not, but it was certainly his
opinion. He thought matters best as they were.
The LORD CHANCELLOR coincided with the Noble
Earl.

Some conversation then ensued between the Marquis of
Lansdown, the Earl of Liverpool, and the Lord Chancellor,
with regard to the Salaries of the Master of the Rolls, and the
Vice-Chancellor, in which the Noble and Learned Lord passed
a very high eulogium on the legal character of Sir W. Grant;
and it was understood that the salary of the Vice-Chancellor
would eventually be raised.
EQUITABLE LOAN COMPANY.
On the motion of Lord DacuE, the Report of the Equitable
Loan Bill was received.
The LORD CHA NCELLOR here intimated his determi-
nation to oppose the Bill upon the third reading, anti moved
thcir Lordships to he summoned for to-morrow, when he had
no doubt but there would be a full attendance in the House.
Upon the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord, the Uni-
versities' Police Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed for o.morrow.
ASSIMILATION OF THE CURRENCY.
On the motion for the second reading of the Bill for the Assi-
milation of the Irish with the English Currency, Viscount
CLIFDE N observed, that he did not rise for the purpose of op-
posing the bill. He thought what had been done, and now was
attempting by Government, had done them great credit. Its
principal good effect had been to put an end to all the jugglery
and tricks of the Exchange Brokers. Whilst 1001. English
Currency was worth but 1081. 6s. Bd. Irish, the people of Ire-
land were generally obliged to pay much more for 1001. Eng-
lish, and the balance was put by the Exchange Brokers into
their own pockets. The Noble Viscount then entered into a
detailed view of the conduct of Mr. Pitt. in respect of the sus-
pension of cash payments, which he declared to be the grand
cause of all the evils which had originated since his time into
the currency. The Bank of England by that Act were allowed
a premium on forcing their paper into circulation. So had the
Bank of Ireland. The result of which was, that the Bank of
England had in consequence received not less than twenty
millions of money more than it was entitled to receive: and
the Bank of Ireland had forced into circulation more than
3,000,000/ of their paper than they were entitled to. In this
respect the Bank of Ireland had, lie contended, acted mostscan-
dalously, though nothing like so scandalously as the Bank of
England. He did not rise to oppose the bill, nor was he much
concerned at finding he had but a scanty auditory ; for his ob-
ject in rising was to let the public out of doors know what were
his sentiments respecting the great money transactions of this
great commercial country, and their bearing for the last 27
years.
The Bill was read a second time.
The Spirit Distillery Bill went through a Committee, and
was reported.
Sir George Clarke, and other Members of the House of Com-
mons, appeared at the Bar and presented the following Bills
which had received the assent of the King, and passed the Nouse
of Commons. namely, The Plate Transferrable Bill, the Naval
Dock-yards Bill, the Scobli Partnerships Society Bill, the A bo-
lition of Writs or Error Bill, the Indian .Judges salaries Bill,
Aloore's Divorse Bill and several Bills originating in their
Lordships' House, and some private Bills, amounting in num-
ber to about twenty.
11.1 'SINTER Plt ETA TION.
Earl GROSVENOR said he rose to correct a misrepresenta-
tion which had gone forth to the public relative to a petition he
had presented from Congleton, on the subject of the Catholic
Claims Bill. A Right Rev. Prelate had been represented as
having stated that petition to have been improperly signed and
got up for the purpose of supporting that particular measure:
as this had obtained publicity through the medium of the press,
he was anxious it should be corrected through the same medium,
an h
d wished,irhdstliipesrtc;ipart the petition lie presented from
representation should be corrected.
He assured e
on
theirly
l)
Congleton had been highly respectably signed by persons,of full
age, and he apprehded the petiti" must have been con-
founded with that fr enom the town of Preston in Lancashire.
He knew the Mayor of Congleton and others who had signed
the Petition he presented were anxious that this explanation
should.take place, for the sake of their own character; and he
should have failed, tie thought, in his duty to their interests if
he had not alluded to it, so as to leave its correction in the
hands best calculated to place the matter in its proper light
before the public.
The House then adjourned at HALF-PAS't SEVEN.