The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-16 00:00:00

ILC HESTER JAIL.

The Earl of DARNLEY wished to move for some papers
relative to a subject which had occupied the House of Corn-
-mons, and which their Lordships were bound to investigate.—
He meant the abuses proved to have existed in Ilchester jail.
-Whatever might be the other merits of Mr. Hunt, still the

octintry was indebted to him for having brought those abuses
irward. It was impossible that his Majesty's Government
sheuld be a party to the persecution of that individual, for his-
tory proved that the more a person was persecuted by men in
ower, the more his influence with the people increased. The
Noble Earl then moved for a copy of the Report of the Corn-
missions on Ilchester Jail:—Ordered.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE should take this oppor-
tunity of asking a question of the Noble Earl opposite, which
might be more properly put to the Secretary for the Home De-
partment, if he now had a seat in that House, whether a Bill
to regulating the state of the prison was still in the contempla-
tion of his Majesty's Ministers. He trusted that so important
a subject had not escaped their attention.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was understood to answer, that
the subject occupied the most serious attention of Ministers,
though he could not, as yet, speak to the specific nature of
the Bbi.
Lord HOLLAND observed, that his Majesty's Ministers al-
ways professed to give their most serious attention to every sub-
ject mentioned in Parliament ; but this mighty attention never
produced any results.
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented Petitions, praying
for agricultural relief, from the owners and occupiers of land
of the Hundred of Scarsdale, and several other Hundreds in
the county of Derby.—Read, and laid on the table.
TYTIIES IN IRELAND.

The Duke of DEVONSHIRE said he rose to pre-
sent a Petition from the Mayor, Aldermen, She-
riff's, and Common Council of the City of Water-
ford, praying the House to take into considera-
..Con the present unhappy state of Ireland, and

more particularly the present system of collect-
ing the tithes. The Petitioners stated, that they
were the lay-impropriators of the tithes of thir-
-teen parishes, and that they were willing to make
-great sacrifices with a view to any alteration in
thnsystem of collecting the tithes, which should
prevent that irritation amongst the people which
unhappily led to so much disorder and disturb-
ance amongst the people. Circumstances pre-
vented him from often taking part in their Lord-

ships' debates, and he felt himself honoured by
the present Petition being entrusted to him, en-
abling hinias it did to call the attention of the

pious; to this most important subject, and to t.e_
-lily, that though necessarily an absentee, he still
.took a deep interest in the welfare and prosperi-
ty of Ireland. He assured their Lordships, that
it was of the greatest importance to the interests
of Ireland, and consequently of the whole Em-
pire, to substitute some arrangement for the pre-

sent system of collecting Tithes, which might
tend to remove.those causes of irritation that were
continually operating; and he thought that some
-arrangement might be made, which, while it ope-
rated to remove the causes of discontent, might
br, made available to maintain the rights of the
Clergy, and be beneficial to their real interests.
That the system of collecting Tithes as at pre-
sent carried into effect, produced the most inju-
rious consequences, he was fully convinced, nor
c=ould it be doubted by any one who was ac-

quainted with the real situation of Ireland. The
Petitioners, as he had already stated, were the
Jmpropriators of the Tithes of 13 parishes, and
fey were most anxious that some arrangement

should be adopted, for which purpose they were

willing to make great sacrifices, in order that a
,zystern of conciliation might be substituted for
that which only tended to produce irritation.—
..11e (the Duke of Devonshire) was also the Irn-
propriator of the Tithes of more than 20 parishes,
anti he was most willing to make a large sacrifice,
in order that some better and more conciliatory
system might be resorted to, instead of the pre-
sent mode of collecting Tithes, which tended to
-produce so much discontent and disorder. It
was impossible, indeed, under the present system,
to prevent acts of injustice and oppression from
• being committed ; he (the Duke of Devonshire)
was necessarily an absentee from Ireland, but

aware-of the evils that might arise from that cir-
tanastance, he had endeavoured to counteract
them by the arrangements which he had made
with regard to his property ; but with all his
care and caution, and adopting every possible
measure that could be suggested, by a sincere
desire to prevent any evils, it was still impossible
to prevent acts of injustice from being committed
under the system to which he had alluded.—
Tinder these circumstances, therefore; he im-
plored their Lordships to take into their con-
sideration the present state of Ireland ; he in-
treated them to do so, with a view to the adop-
tion of some measures that might tend to remove
those causes of discon(ent that at -present so un-
happily prevailed, and that Ireland, by these
means, might, instead of a source of weakness, -be
converted into a- source ofitrength to the Empire.
He.trusted their Lordships would not be alarmed

if he mentioned the term commutation; but he was
fully convinced that; by, a commutation of Tithes
in Ireland, upon a principle that should preserve
the interests of the Clergy, the great cause of the
discontents in that country would be removed,
and that many of the Impropriators of Tithes
would concur in that object fo'r the purpose of

establishing a system which would be so much
more satisfactory to all persons interested in the
welfare of Ireland, than that which was at pre-
,.:ent acted upon. In ,saying this, he did not

mean in the slightest degree to allude to the sys-
tem of Tithes in England ; all their Lordships
well knew that the system in England was totally
different, in its operation to that acted upon in
Ireland. A commutation of tithes, therefore,
as applied to Ireland, had not necessarily any
connection with any similar measure as being ap-
plicable to England. With reference to Ireland,
he was satisfied it would produce the most. bene-
ficial effects ; it would remove from amongst the
population of that country a continual source of '
irritation, and would tend materially to bring •
about that conciliation which was so much to be
desired. Certain he was that such a measure
would prove kighly gratifying to all the loyal
and respectable part of the population of Ire-
land. Nor would the present time, he trusted.
be considered as unfit . for the consideration of
such a question ; for nothing could in a greater
degree tend to bring back to reason and to
loyalty the deluded and misled part of the po-
pulation than the knowledge that the Legisla-
ture were inquiring into the causes of those dis-
contents which unhappily prevailed. Nothing
could more effectually tend to put down those
discontents than the abolition of that system of
collecting tithes, which he believed to be origi-
nally the main cause of them, and he was satis-
fied that their Lordships, in extending a pro-
tecting hand to the population of Ireland, and in
adopting measures to remove the causes of their
discontent, would find them a loyal and a grate-
ful people. He rejoiced in the appointment of
the Marquess Wellesley to the Government of
Ireland ;. a Nobleman whose talents and zeal,
applied to the consideration of the state of Ire-
land, would no doubt earnestly second and sup-
port every measure that could tend to the benefit
and advantage of that country.' He intreated
their Lordships, for. these reasons, to take into
consideration without delay the unhappy state of
Ireland, with a view to the adoption of those
measures which might tend so materially to re-
move the discontents that unfortunately pre-
vailed in that country. His Grace concluded by
presenting the Petition, which was read at the
table.

The Earl of LtvEneooe, before saying a few
words upon the subject of the Petition, could
not but express his regret that any circumstances
should prevent the Noble Duke from frequet►tly
taking a part in the debates of their Lordships,
as he felt it due to say, that he never heard in
that House a mere manly, candid, and liberal
speech than that made by the Noble Duke upon
presenting this Petition. Witl► regard to the
matter of the Petition, coming as it did from a
respectable body, deeply interested in the pro-
perty to which it referred, it was undoubtedly
deserving of the most serious consideration, it
was unquestionably a subject of the greatest im-
portance. That the present system of collecting
the Tithes in Ireland was productive of much
irritation, there was no doubt ; but he could not
agree in one point with the Noble Duke, that it
was the sole cause of the discontents that un-
happily prevailed in that country, as, from the
information of which he was in possession, he
had reason to believe, if he was not much misin-
formed, that there were other causes materially
contributing to those discontents. He was, how-
ever, fully satisfied that much irritation was pro-
duced by the operation of the present system of
collecting tithes, but at the same time it was ne-
cessary to remove two or three prejudices which
were prevalent with reference to this subject.—
It was too common an opinion to ascribe to the
Clergy all the evils that arose from this system;
but the fact was, that more than one-third of the
tithes in Ireland belonged to lay-itnpropriators,
and it would he found, that with respect to the
Clergy in general, the collection of the tithes
was managed with justice and liberality. The
question, however, as to a commutation of tithes
in Ireland, had been under the consideration
(though the Noble Baron might again fix upon
that word) of several Governments for years
past ; but no system had yet been found ade-
quate to the required purpose, and even the
Noble Duke, who held the office of Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland in 1806 and 1807, although
anxious to adopt some measure that should re-
move the evils of the system, had yet found
himself unable to make up his mind as to any sys-
tem that could be beneficially adopted. He ( Lord
Liverpool), however, without pledging himself to
any thing specific, was perfectly ready to state
that he was disposed to enter into the considera-
tion of the question, with a view to the adoption
of a system to do away the evils arising from the
present mode of collecting the tithes in Ireland ;
and he agreed with the Noble Duke (of Devon-
shire), that the present unhappy discontents in
that country ought not to be held as any bar to
that consideration, or to the adoption of such
measures as should be found practicable and ex-i
pedient. He also agreed with the Noble Duke
that the a►gument as to a commutation of tithes
in Ireland did not apply to the collection of
tithes in England, where it was well known a
different system prevailed. The question might
therefore be taken as to circumstances applicable
alone- ii) Ireland, which circumstances did not
apply to England, and which, therefore, did not
involve any consideration of tithes in England.
—He was aware that in the consideration of any
system, as applied to Ireland, they could not get
rid of the evil of absenteeship (if he might use
that term), which must still unavoidably be an
evil to a certain extent. It was true, however,
that that evil might be compensated for to a con-
siderable extent by the conduct of landlords ;
and he felt bound to say, from all the informa-
tion he possessed, what the Noble Duke (of De-
vonshire) could not, through delicacy, say of
himself, that the Noble Duke was one of the
most liberal and humane landlords in Ireland,
and that by his liberal conduct in the manage-
ment. of his property he had materially contri-
buted to compensate for the evil arising from
being unavoidably an absentee. He felt all the'
importance, with reference to this question, of
the persons most interested in this tenure of pro-
perty calling for some alteration in the system of
collecting the tithes, and he certainly felt that it
was a subject deserving the most serious consi-
deration ; nor did he conceive that by a commu-
tation of tithes the interests of the clergy would

be injured. On the contrary, he thought it
would be found that by means of such a system
the clergy would be ultimately gainers.
The Marquis of LANsnowN said, that he had
also a Petition to present to the ilonse on this
subject, but such was the importance of it, that
he felt he should neither do justice to his own
interest, or the interest of the public, if he re-
mained
silent. Connected with this Petition was
every thing calculated to command the serious
attention of their Lordships : the manner in which
the subject had been introduced by the Noble
Duke ; the nature of the Petition, and further
that Petition which he should have to present ;
Petitions not from persons desirous of interfering
with the property of others, but calling upon
their Lordship, upon the most enlarged princi-
ples, to interfere with their own. It would here-
after redound to the honour of the Corporation
of Waterford that they had been the first to re-
nounce, as far as they were competent, any inte-
rest which they might have in the preservation
of an odious system, and to remove from their
country a principle of distraction and disunion
that had afflicted it for years. The Noble Duke,
and the individual who now addressed them, also
came before their Lordships and solicited inves-
tigation. From all these circumstances, their
Lordships had ample reason to enter upon the
consideration of the subject. No man who looked
at Ireland but must regret that a system now
abolished in a great part of the Empire should
continue in full force in that particular part of
Europe where its existence was the greatest
anomaly, and connected with the most violent
irritation that any system could create. If it
were intended as a bar to the established church,
and as a means of alienating the minds of
the lower classes, sowing the seeds of dis-
cord, and keeping them in life and vigour
when they were sowed ; it was that system
by which the clergy and lay-hnpropriators of
that religion professed by the minority of the
people were enabled to grind the majority who
professed a different one. He was desirous of not
pressing any thing with a feeling of hostility to the
Protestant Church of Ireland ; if such feeling were
entertained, it would be most undeserved. lie
was bound to state that wh.,tever evils attached
to the condition of tithe property, the Protestant
Church of Ireland has not to answer. Though
it was found that many persons were led into
abuse by circumstances, yet, at the same time it
must be acknowledged that, generally speaking,
the conduct of the Protestant Church of Ireland
was such as to do honour to any church in Chris-
tendom. In many parts of Ireland, where no
spiritual duty could be performed, many indivi-
duals he knew felt that they had still a ministry
to perform, a ministry of kindness and benevo-
lence ; and if they could not carry their religion
into the cottage of the poor man, they still
could bear there compassion and protection.—
Such conduct it was that served to neutralize
the evils of the system ; but notwithstanding
the virtues of the majority, individuals could
be found whose power to vex and harass, in
consequence of the texture of this property,
exceeded any thing existing in other parts of
Europe. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) thouglit
this system had not the main share in pro-
ducing the present disorders of Ireland ; with-
out meaning to impute to it the whole of the
evil, he could assure the Noble Earl that in
many instances confusion and outrage had arisen
out of the tithe system alone, in places undis-
turbed before. In confirmation of this, his Lord-
ship referred to the resolutions of two Magis-
trates of iiilmainham, which stated that the dis-
turbances there had their origin mainly in an
increased valuation of tithes by the Curate, who
happened ako to farm the tithes. An addition
of 75 per cent. had been made to what the Rec-
tor offered. to lease them at in 1803. It was
hardly necessary to shew that a system which
gave great powers to tithe-farmers and tithe-
r proctors (often the lowest and most ferocious of
mankind), could not exist without abuse, and
must necessarily produce these bitter conse-
quences under which the country now groaned.
In mentioning the abolition of this system in
other parts of Europe, their Lordships would not
suppose the course there pursued was intended
to be recommended as an example to follow. In
the governments which 'had been called revolu-
tionary, as well as those contra-distinguished by
the name of legitimate, the abolition of the tithe
system had been attended with a character of
spoliation which he should be sorry to see attached
to any proceeding of the British nation in which
the Government was concerned. The only prin-
ciple that could with safety be looked to, was do-
ing ample justice to all parties; and if no other
good were extracted from an alteration than the
saving of the great expence in the ruinous mode
of collection, and the consequent irritation, that
would be a most important object. He would
remind their Lordships, that it was not with the
conscientious rector or lay-impropriator, that from
motives of benevolence took two-thirds or one-
half of what they were entitled to, but they were
to deal with the absent clergymans, who was indif-
ferent to the duties of his station and the dis-
tresses of his flock. If it were attended with no
other consequences, it would be worth their
Lordships' while to interpose, and not to let the
humane man stand in the situation of renouncing
his profits, whilst men of another description ex-
acted to the last farthing. On the nature of the
remedy, so far from the Noble Duke, to whom
allusion had been made by the Noble Earl (Li-
verpool,) having formed an opinion that nothing
could be done on the subject, he had considered
of a plan, and he (the Marquis of Lausdown) be-
lieved he was authorised in stating, that that plan,
or something similar, might with advantage be
adopted. The mode suggested, of substituting
land for Tithes, he had formed no opinion upon ;
and without meaning to say that it would be ap-
plicable to Ireland, yet he might be allowed to
say, that even that substitution, objectionable as it
had been found in England in enclosure cases, yet
that objection did not exist in Ireland. Neither
would another objection made in England, of
the possession of land diverting the clergyman's
attention from his duties, apply to the south
of Ireland, where his flock was not nume-
rous, and the clergyman was looked to more as

a resident proprietor and magistrate. He had
heard with great satisfaction that the Noble
.Earl
opposite and the Noble Marquis at the head of
the Irish Government had turned their attention
to bringing before their Lordships a plan for the
commutation of tithes. He had never adopted
an opinion so insulting to the Iklarquis Wellesley
as to believe this subject could have escaped his
attention ; in that belief he felt relieved from
the necessity of bringing the subject before Par-
liament. lie had also heard with satisfaction
from the Noble Earl opposite, that he did not
consider the present agitations a bar to the con-
sideration of the subject. Relying on that as-
surance from the Noble Earl, he felt inclined to
abstain himself, and would also express a wish
and hope that others would abstain from pressing •
the subject now ; but at the sonic time Parlia-
ment would not do its duty if they suffered much
time to elapse without investigating this subject.
Obstacles and difficulties there might be, but
there could be no difficulty or obstacle comparable
in magnitude with the evils which were now sub-
verting the very elements of civil government in
that distracted country.
Earl LIMEEtICK bore his testimony to the state-
ments so powerfully introduced to the attention
of their Lordships by the Noble Duke who had
presented the Petition. He (Earl Limerick) did
not say that the present disturbances arose alto-
gether from the Tithe System in Ireland ; but
he was convinced that that system contributed,
and mainly contributed, to produce them. As in
the production of all other evils there were many
concurring causes, he would the_u state only one
other cause that was of considerable influence—
it was the abominable mode of carrying into ef-
fect the excise on distillation. The effect of such
a system must be to barbarise the country and to
ruin the army, and to make every district the
scene of unceasing outrage and insubordination.
He agreed with those Noble Lords who stated
that no consideration of the present state of outrage
and lawless force in which a groat portion of Ireland
was unhappily placed, ought to have the effect
of delaying the consideration of that question.—
It was true, that in a part of that country there
raged a rebellion of a most savage nature, be-
ginning in plunder, and ending in the assassina-
tion of every -respectable man. Knowing that
country well—having spent a great portion of
his life in it—attached to the Protestant Church,
and being a sincere Protestant, he must say that
he considered the Irish Tithe System as a bounty
for the maintenance of the Catholic' religion.—
(Hear, hear !)—What did the Irish peasant
know of the Protestant clergyman ? He only
knew him through the Irish Tithe Proctor—he
only knew him in such an application as such a
description of character was likely to make.
Earl of BeEsINToN said, it was not his inten-
tion to enter at large on the question at the pre-
sent time. It had been so ably discussed by the
Noble Duke who presented the Petition, and by
the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Go-
vernment, that it was indeed unnecessary to
prolong the discussion. But as he was con-
versant with a part of Ireland, differently cir-
cumstanced from the South, with which the
Noble Duke was connected, he could assure
their Lordships that the Presbyterians of the
North felt severely the oppressions of the tithe
system; and .though they had not petitioned,
were as hostile to it as any other description of
the Irish people. The Noble .Earl complained
that his Majesty's Government had not availed
themselves of the College statutes, a redress
which was within their controul, and put an end
to the demands which the Fellows of the Uni-
versity of Dublin, when they went out on College
Livings, took care to exact, successor after suc-
cessor, from the cultivators of the soil. The
livings were of great value, from 18001. to 20001.
per annum. They left College when their fa-
milies became numerous, and when they arrived
at their livings, were wholly unequal, from their
advanced state of life, to attend to the duties.

The Petition was then laid on the table.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then presented a
Petition from the Lay Impropriators of Tithes of
Listowel and eleven other Parishes in the south
of Ireland, praying for the consideration of the
Tithe System, and for a commutation of Tithes.—
Read and laid on the table.—Adjourned till
Monday.
[For the Proceedings in the IlousE of CommoNs, see our
Fourth Page.]