The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY, JUNE 10, 1836.

position now made to the House by the Noble Lord would •
wipe away the insult which had been given to Ireland by the
alterations which had been made in this measure in another
place, and therefore he felt it to be his duty to give that pro-
position his support.—( Hear.) When this measure was first
introduced, it was hoped that it would be met in a spirit of
conciliation ; but in that hope they had been disappointed, and
if the proposition which the Noble Lord had made was re-
jected, it was impossible either for him or for any one else to
answer for the consequences. One result of its rejection
wo,uld be to occasion a direct collision with the other branch
of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell
and one or two other Hon. Members.) A collision of the
two Houses of Parliament would of course put a total stop
to all legislation for Ireland, and the mischiefs which must
arise from so undesirable a state of things must be ob-
vious to all persons gifted with anything like reflection. It
was, he thought, impossible to contemplate such an evil without
a wish to devise means to remedy it. While he said this, he
by no means considered the House of Lords as a thing so pe-
culiar—so sacred—as that it ought not to be touched ; and
certainly if that House should again refuse to pass this Bill,
he saw no means by which they could escape from the dilemma
in which such conduct would place them, but by at once de-
termining on effecting extensive changes in that branch of the
Legislature. They should not forget that there was a time
when even patience was not a virtue.
Mr. E WART said that pleased as he was with the dexterity
of the arguments of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Exeter, and elegant as was the phraseology in which those
arguments were conveyed, he must say that he was surprised
to find, with all the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's acuteness
as well as special pleading, he had not touched even once on
that which formed the gist of the question which they were
called upon to consider. Hon. Gentlemen opposite wished
the Legislature to produce any inequality between the two
nations ; but what, he would ask them was the professed basis
on which the act of Union was agreed to ? Why, perfect
equality.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell and other
Hon. Members on the Ministerial benches.) Throughout
the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Exeter
no allusion whatever was made to this part of the subject, al-
though he had told them that to grant Corporations to Ireland
would be to establish an exclusive system, in which the Ca-
tholics would have the whole advantage. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Exeter had stated that municipalities
were fit only for barbarous ages, when a check was necessary
to be put to baronial influence ; but did the Hon and Learned
Gentleman forget that the people as much required protection
now against baronial influence as at any former period of the
history of this country? If, however, municipalities were in-
jurious to civilization, why had the despotic Government of
Prussia conferred them on the Prussian people? Or was
France so dark and barbarous a nation that such institutions
were necessary in that country? But the argument was un-
tensble. With a full knowledge, then, of the advantage of
municipalities to the towns of England and Scotland, how was
it possible that they could refuse Corporations to such places
as Dublin, Limerick, and Belfast?

Mr. O'CONNELL—You have forgotten Cork.
Mr. E WART admitted that Cork had also a right to be
included in the enumeration, and said that the objection which
had been raised to this Bill was an instance of the greatest in-
fatuation ever witnessed within the walls of Parliament. For
his own part he was unable to reconcile the conduct of the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth in 1829 with
that which he was pursuing in 1836.—( Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial benches.) The advocates of inequality he regarded
as the enemies of both Crown and people, and he knew of but
one who had acted on that principle. Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite were following in the steps of Napoleon Bonaparte,
whose first act of power was the suppression of all the munici-
pal institutions of France ; and he could not help congratu-
lating them on the choice of the example which they had made
for their conduct. If they refused to Ireland that which had
been granted to England and Scotland, they would not only
excite the indignation of the Irish people, but affect the soli-
dity of the Throne. The Noble Lord's speech, he must say,
was worthy a Minister of the Crown.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
hear, from Mr. O'Connell and other Members on the Minis-
terial benches.)
Colonel CONOLLY said that it was most unfair, without
bringing the merits of the question before them, to stamp
those who sat on his side of the House as agitators, and per-
sons who acted from unjustifiable motives oppresively towards
the people of Ireland.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. O'Connell
and other Members on the Ministerial benches.) Hon.
Members opposite had talked about the dignity of that
House, but he was at a loss to understand what their notions
of the dignity of the House was ? They had been called
" Protestant agitators ;" but a more unhappy phrase could
not have been selected. It was wholly inapplicable to them,
because nothing was more foreign to their nature than thinking
even of offering insult to any class of the Irish people.
The exclusive character of the Irish Corporations had been
over and over again represented as a grievance in both
branches of the Legislature ; and the question, therefore,
was, would they be justified in substituting a less obnox-
ious system of exclusion for a more obnoxious system, es-
pecially when the only effect of their doing so could have
would be to strengthen and extend the influence of a baneful
agitation?—(Hear, hear.) What had happened during
the last recess? Why, it was notorious that an Hon. and
Learned Sergeant had gone about with two individuals who
had recently been liberated from Kilmainhsm gaol by the
exercise of the Royal mercy, to create excitement iu dif-
ferent parts of Ireland on this subject. All those persons
found themselves at a loss for, was an audience ; and yet such
were the parties to whom in future corporate rights were pro-
posed to be confided. The two culprits to whom he alluded,
had been sent to prison for a flagrant affray which took place
some time previously on the very spot where, with the Hon.
and Learned Sergeant, they had lately appeared to stimulate
the public mind on this subject, which was endeavoured to be
coupled with the question of tithes, for the purpose of infla-
ming the bad passions of the people. The attempt, however,
proved.abortive, and a similar attempt to create disorder in
Belfast and the other principal towns of the North, was
equally a failure. His constituents had requested him to sup-
port the amendments which the Noble Lord had made in this
Bill, and happy he was to second their wishes.—(Hear, from
Mr. O'Connell and other Members on the Ministerial
benches.) He could assure the Hon. Members opposite that
he treated their interruption as it deserved, for it was even be-
neath his contempt. He believed that the real object of the
supporters of this Bill was to get into their hands the property
of such of the Irish Corporations as had any, in order to ac-
complish repeal by means of the agitation and revolutionary
doctrines which the new system would enable them to pro-
mulgate throughout the country, He had no hesitation to de-
clare that any measure that would tend to increase the power
of the Honourable Member for Kilkenny, was dangerous to
Ireland. . . _ _ _

...•••••••
Lord CLEMENTS said that those who in England con-
curred in the amendments of the House of Lords, and who
were anxious to come forward in support of them, imitated the
conduct of Lord Lyndhurst, and were an anxious to get up an
orthodox Protestant agitation. He believed that they were
anxious to put a stop to the course of liberal Government, not
only in this but in every other covntry. The House of Lords
considered the Municipal Reform of lost year an abomination,
and they were determined not to extend the same principle to
Ireland. He believed that there was a portion of the Tory
party who were anxious to deprive Ireland of all free institu-
tions whatsoever.
Colonel BERKELEY said that when the Coercion Bill
was nefore the House he had acted a most decided and straight-
forward part with respect to that measure. He had on that
occasion been taunted by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Kilkenny with having received hospitality in that country,
hospitality which he ( Captain Berkeley) would never forget.
When he afterwards went before his constituents, he was
charged with having supported the Coercion Bill, but never
until the present time had be found reason to blush for the
vote he had given on that occasion. When he had heard the
Noble Lord quote the words that had been used by a Noble
Ex-Chancellor, he regretted the vote he had given. The
Noble and Gallant Gentleman concluded by expressing his de-
termination to support the resolutions of the Noble Lord.
Mr. G. PRICE said that such words as those which had
been imputed to a Noble Individual in another place were de-
serving of the deepest reprobation. He had known the country
alluded to, and had resided in it ; and he had there formed
friendships and associations which he had recurred to with the
highest pleasure. He considered the language that had been
referred to totally unworthy of a senator either there or in any
other place.--( Hear, hear.) He feared, however, that the
Noble Lord opposite, from some deficiency of memory, must
have been inaccurate in stating the argument and the language
of the Noble Individual whose name had been introduced. He
never could believe that the Noble Lord had used that expres-
sion unless it was conneeted with some other argument, and
which in the whole context might be perfectly harmless.--
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite no doubt quoted the
expressions in order to raise a temporary feeling.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) He had listened to the speech which
the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department had
addressed to them, and he would take the liberty of telling
the Noble Lord an anecdote, not of the middle—( A laugh)—
but of the later ages. When a Chanceller of Sweden sent
his son to the Congress of Westphalia, the latter, who was a
modest youth, feeling reluctant to go, from an impression of
his own inexperience and incapacity, he was addressed by the
father in these words—" Nescis, mi fili, parva quam sapientia
regitur mundus."—(Cheers.) In considering this question
they were bound to consider what was the ancient history of
municipal institutions. He did not, strictly speaking, wish for
the destruction of any of our institutions, and he recollected
that when on a former occasion he stated that he abhorred the
destruction of the minor institutions of 'France, he was
taunted with wishing to pursue towards Ireland the course
which he deprecated in France. Those institutions were
swept away by the decree of a tempestuous assembly, He
admitted that there was cleverness in the observations which
had been retorted upon his argument. But if he had been
asked to choose the alternative, he would prefer the destruc-
tion of these bodies to having them turned into Jacobin clubs
—normal schools of agitation—with a Danton and a Robes-
pierre in each, to mould them to their wishes and wield them
for their own purposes.—( Hear.)
It had been contended
that, England and Scotland having received a measure for
the reform of their municipal institutions, Ireland ought to
receive a similar measure. It was even held that to refuse
such a measure was an insult to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He
considered such an expression to be most unphilosophic and
unstatesmanlike. In moulding the institutions of a country
they were not to be guided by the institutions which another
country might possess, so much as by the mode in which that
particular country obeyed its laws, by the habits, and temper,
and character of the people of such country. The Hon.
Member proceeded to describe the excitement and acerbity of
feeling attendant upon elections, and he contended that more
of this ill-feeling prevailed at a single municipal election
than at fifty Parliamentary elections.—( Hear, hear.) If
this was the case in England, how much morg did the ob-

jections to such a measure apply as respected Ireland—
amongst a people warm-tempered—kind-hearted--high-
, spirited—easily excited, and easily led away by their
feelings and their prejudices, to be the easy dupes of im-
postors and mountebanks.—(Year, hear.) If municipal
power was placed in such hands as these, it was not possible to
foresee to what objects it might not be perverted. But how
dangerous was this extension of power, when it was considered
that municipal agitation could bring to its aid a power which
not merely exercised a perfect influence, socially and morally,
but which (as we understood the Hon. Gentleman) held out
the terrors of another world to aid its influence and assist its
purposes ?—( Cheers and disapprobation from the Ministerial
Benches.) It was idle to deny that the opinions which had
been supppoted by a large and important minority in that
House had been sustained by a large majority elsewhere, to
whose opinions all deference was due. The Noble Lord then,
in asking them to reverse their decisions, could not expect that
he could find a single waverer at that side of the House—
( Great and continued cheering from the Opposition
Benches)—more particularly when they found their opi-
nions sanctioned by a large majority of that body whom
he (Mr. G. Price) would ever consider the guardian of
our liberties and the bulwark of the Constitution—he meant

the House of Peers.—(Great cheering from the Oppo-
sition.) It was impossible for them to conceal from them-
selves that the whole measure was the price of the sup-
port given to the Government by the Hon. and Learned
'Member for Kilkenny. The Hon. Member for Kilkenny as-
sisted the Noble Lord and his Noble and Right Hon. col-

leagues by 11(ssui7pOrt,;;Jd in return the Noble Lord and his
Noble and' Right lion. colleagues felt bound to assist the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny to carry out his views in Ireland.
--(Laughter, and cheering from the Opposition,) He (Mr.
Grove Price) did not know what might have been transacted
in secret divan. He knew nothing of the secret articles that
might exist between the Hon. Gentleman and his Majesty's
Government as to the terms on which they could retain his
support ; but be believed if those secret articles could be seen
it would be found: that one of the principal articles stipu-
lated for the surrender of the Irish Church and the Irish Cor-
porations.—The proceedings of the secret divan had been
openly and candidly avowed some time ago by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Tipperary, but at the same time they had been denied
by the Hon. Member for Dublin. He would leave those Hon.
Members, however, to settle the contradiction between them.
He had read Shakspeare, and he would remind the Noble
Lord of the celebrated meeting between Hotspur and Owen
Glendower, when the partition of the empire takes place to
conciliate the most inveterate foe in England.—( Hear, hear.)
This was exactly similar with respect to the Municipal and
Church Bills. The Noble Lordfirst says we shall do as you de-
sire with regard to Ireland—you shall be dictator there pro-
vided you allow me to be Minister here.—(Great and conti-
nued cheering from the Opposition.) He hoped that he had
discussed the question with good temper.—(" Hear," and a
laugh.) He had never spoken any sentiments but his own.—
( Hear.) They had been told that a terrible collision of the
two Houses of Parliament would take place in case the mea-
sure of his Majesty's Government was not agreed to. He cer-
tainly was quite at a loss to know what was meant by colli-
sions. Did the Noble Lord mean to say that the House of
Lords did not possess the same right to examine, amend, or
reject any Bill that might be before them, as was possessed by
the House of Commons ?—( Cheers.) A few years ago they
would have been ashamed to have heard that right disputed.
He spoke the mere language of political scripture when he
said that collision was a term unknown to the British Constitu-

tion. No Hon. Member of that House possessing the least
constitutional knowledge would venture to say that the House
of Lords had not a full right to form an independent judgment
on any measure sent up to them from this House.—( Cheers.)
The Hon. Member concluded by deprecating a state of things
in which the rule of physical force was to take the place of our
beautifully bilanced Constitution, and in which the country
was to be placed at the mercy of those who were without the
talent to guide, or those who had the folly to obey. The
Hon. Member concluded amidst loud cheers from the Opposi-
tion benches.

Mr. WA RD said that the Hon. Member for Sandwich need
not go so far as Westphalia for authority to show with how
little wisdom mankind was governed. Indeed, there was no
better illustration of the fact than that furnished by the con-
duct of the other branch of the Legislature—( Cheers from the
Ministerial benches)—or than that of an individual in another
place, who would have been but of little weight if he de-
pended on himself, but who derived some importance from the
fact of his being selected by the proudest aristocracy in the
world to stand forth as their champion and leader in the other
House of Parliament.—( Ministerial cheers and confusion.)
Hoff. MEMBER here rose to order, and asked whether it
was competent to the Hon. Member who had possession of the
House to indulge in personal allusions to a Member of the
other branch of the Legislature?

_
The SPEAKER was understood to admit that such a course
was not in order.

Mr. WARD contended that he was perfectly free to deal
with the arguments, the allusions, and explanations which had
begun at th opposite side of the House.
The same HON. .MEIkIBER who before rose to order again
asked the Speaker to say distinctly whether such a course
could be persisted in ? _

The SPEAKER was understood to repeat his former
answer.

Mr. WARD insisted that it was not by him the rule had 1
been violated. It had been begun on the other side ; but still
he would not proceed further in that line of observation. With '
regard to the amendments of the Noble Lord (Russell) to the
Municipal Bill as it came down from the other House, al-
though he should consent to them, he must confess it was with
reluctance. Precedents had been set aside with regard to the
manner in which this Bill was treated in the House of Lords,
and amendments were sent down to the House of Commons,
framed in the spirit of a resolution, which that House had re-
jected. For this reason the Bill, as altered by their Lord-
ships, ought to be set aside, and he should vote against its
being received, but for his belief that every compromise on
the subject would be rejected by the other House.—(Oppo-
sition cheers.) Ile believed that the attempt at compromise
would do nothing except place those who concurred with the
Noble Lord more in the right. When the importance of the
subject was considered, comprising as it did a third part of the
empire, he wondered at the futility of the arguments which
were used to show why Ireland should not have the same
municipal reform as England. There was nothing but the
stale story of normal schools of agitation. Much had been
said about coalition on the other side.—(Ministerial cheers.)
It was natural for persons to coalesce whose tastes and prin-
ciples were congenial.--(Loud and continued cheers from the
Opposition.) Hon. Members might cheer ever so loudly,
but the congeniality of those on one side was to do gross in-
justice to Ireland. while that of those on the other side—( Here
the voice of the Hon. Member was drowned by loud cheers
from both sides of the House.) There was, however, no se-
cret contract, but an open and fair bond of union. The meet-
ing alluded to was attended by 300 Members of that House.
There could therefore be no secret, and when these 300
coalesced, they dragged the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir Robert
Peel) from his Ministerial seat.—(Cheers from the Ministe-
rial benches.) Yes, they outvoted him in his own Parliament,
by coalescing in principle with a Ministry which was deter-
mined to redress the wrongs of Ireland. The Hon. Member
for Sandwich had talked much of collision, but the collisions
of former times were mere matters of etiquette, whilst the ques-
tion now was one of principle, and which involved an organic
change. Such a collision was one to which he should look
forward with regret, as the business of the country and the
machinery of the Government must stand still ; but those on
the other side, instead of lending their assistance to avoid such
a collision, only endeavoured to force it on by refusing to aid
in a compromise.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HAMILTON, as Member for Dublin, felt himself
bound to say that, although the Corporation of that city might
be a political body, it exercised its politics for the best of
purposes. It exercised them in a spirit of attachment to 813-
tish connection, in a spirit of regard for British interest, in a
spirit of devotion to the Protestant faith, and of loyalty to a
Protestant King. They had kept their faith heretofore, and
they would still preserve it; and he felt that, in supporting
the amendments made in the other House, and opposing the
motion of the Noble Lord opposite, he was speaking the sen-
timents of the Corporation of Dublin.—(Cheers.) Why did
he resist the appropriation ? Not from any fear for the Pro-
testant religion, for that had a stay stronger than the arm of
man to support it, and did not look for assistance from the law.
But had this clause no political effect ? Was there no demo-
cratic encroachment behind ?—(Cheers.) Was not the at-
tempt to preserve the corporate system in its new shape an
effort to advance the debasing principle of democracy ? This
was not reform. The measure of the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tamworth, when he amended the criminal
code ; that of the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire,
when he proposed the measure for doing away with negro
slavery—these deserved the name of reform. They were car-
ried for the principles which were embodied in them.—( Hear,
hear.) With a reference to principle, and to principle alone,
all great measures should be discussed. In Ireland a demo-
cracy was already organized to an extent which no other coun-
try in the world could exhibit, and this democracy would be
greatly advanced by the re-construction of Corporations in the
proposed plan. On this ground, then, he could not assent to
the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite.—( Cheers. )
Mr. O'LOGHL EN expected that the Hon. Member would
support a measure which included the Corporation of the city
which he represented in that' House. With regard to the
measure before them, it had been said by the Hon. and Learned
Member for Exeter that there was little difference between
it and that sent down from the other House ; and the Hon.
Member said in support of that opinion, that the Corporations
of Ireland had little to do, except as regarded the administra-
tion of justice, and that the Bill as sent up from this House
shut them out from this. Did the Hon. arid Learned Gen-
tleman mean to tell those at all acquainted with Ireland that
Corporations had nothing to do but in connexion with the ad-
ministration of justice? ' Why, the property which the Cor-
poration of Dublin had to administer, amounted to 34,0001.,
and this at present was applied exclusively to sectarian pur-
poses. Had the appointment to local offices in every corporate
town in Ireland no effect upon the state of society in that
country ? The Bill which went up to the Lords from that
House did decidedly take the administration of justice out of
the hands of the corporate officers ; but it did so because of
the objections made in an early part of the discussion by the
opposite party ; and was it not too much that this same party
should now make that which was done at their own sugges-
tion a matter of taunt ?_( Ministerial cheers.) But the Bill
as it went up to the Lords, left the management of corporate
property to the burgesses. The Bill, as sent down by the
Lords, took away this control, and vested it in what he
should, for distinction sake, call the Royal Commissioner!, whomight afterwards, if they thought fit, vest it in Commissioners
appointed under the 9th of George IV. ; but then .the towns
in which there were local boards under this .A.e! in
were very few in number. Why take this circuitous_mniiso Irelandm
ode:
Why not confer the power directly on the Local C

sioners if there were no sinister object? What wouid be the
result if the Royal Commissioners, who were to have the power
of conferring or withholding the controul, were to be appointed
by those " aliens in blood, in language, and religion ? "
(Loud Ministerial cheers.) There was another difference in
the Bill as sent down by the Lords, which would have the ef-
fect of making the present corporate officers Commissioners,
and thus perpetuate for their lives the power and emoluments
of those at present holding civil offices. In Cork there were
fifteen or twenty offices which by the tortuous operation of the
Bill—whether this part of the machinery was suggested by a
gentleman from Cork or not he did not know—which would
be continued in one family.—( Cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) It was said on the other side, that every office con-
nected with the administration of justice was to be vested in the
Government. This he did not object to, but when they came
to the appointment of town clerks, and clerks of the peace,
why should they have their appointments for life ? One of
these officers was closely connected with the administration of
justice, and yet he was to be made independent of the Govern-.
ment—a person who was to have the power of striking, and
correcting, and preserving the lists of voters. He did not
think any officer for life should possess such power, which he
might exercise for political purposes. The Hon. Member
opposite asked what good could be expected from the town
councils in Ireland, what was to be their definite or useful
object, what power were they to be invested with for the sub-
stantial benefit of the citizens ? Would not Commissioners
serve the purpose ?—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Well, but why appoint them in England? Why not object
to them, and in their stead appoint Commissioners ?—(Hear,
hear, from the Ministerial side.) In the town, to single this
out of many, there was a population of 11,000 ; the Corpora-
tion had property to the amount of 1,000/. a year, which was
all absorbed by the salaries of the mayor and the other corpo-
rate officers. Now, the townsmen assessed themselves at 6001.
a year, which was considered sufficient to meet all the neces-
sary expenses of the town, being 4001. a year less than what
the Corporation expended in salaries. The lion. Member for
Exeter entirely misunderstood the operation of the Bill. Did
the House mean to legislate for Ireland differently from what
it did for England? If it did, lie would tell them that the
people of Ireland would not yield to this. They gave Liver-
pool a Corporation, and they meant to deprive Dublin of one.
With this Ireland would not be satisfied.—(Cheers from the
Ministerial side.) But it appeared the point on which the
whole case turns is this—because the majority of the Irish
people differ from the people of England, they are not to en•
joy equal laws or equal rights with the English people. If
that be the case the sooner it is understood the better—(Loud
cheers from the Ministerial side)—if that be the case, and it
could not be misunderstood that it was, it would shake to the
foundation the connection between the countries; and he, for
ono, would say that it was the duty of every one to sever the
connection if these unjust, these exasperating and contemp-
tuous distinctions were upheld.—( Loud cheers from the Re-
peal Members in particular, and from the Ministerial benches
in general.) The Irish Catholics were designated as aliens
in re .pion, in feelings, and in blood from the English
people. Yes, they would be aliens from British feelings,
and from the spirit of British freedom, if they submitted to
those galling indignities any longer.—(Renewed cheering
from the Irish portion of the Ministerial side.) He did
not mean to utter any threat.—( Loud and reiterated bursts
of laughter and ironical cheers from the Opposition, re-
sponded to by cries of " Hear" from the Ministerial side.) He
was not hostile to the Union ; on the contrary, he always la-
boured to uphold the communion between the countries. But
when he heard in another place, where he had no opportunity
of repelling the foul imputation. that he, as an Irish Catho-
lic, was an alien in blood, alien in feeling, and alien in reli-
gion from the British people, and only panted for an opportu-
nity to shake off his allegiance to the British monarchy, he
must be naturally exasperated at the charge, and should take
the earliest opportunity of expressing his feelings upon it.—

( Hear, and cheers.)
The Right Hon. F. SHAW rose to address the House
amidst considerable confusion. Mr. Shaw, as well as we could
collect, began by saying that the Hon. Gentleman who had last
sat down, appeared to him entirely to run wide of the princi-
ple, the main scope, and the tendency of the measure, as first
proposed to the House. It was the design and the practical
effect of the measure the House should consider, and it was
what the country looked to, no matter how, by special pleading
or isolated cases of monopoly, or the testimony of arithmetic,
it may be jesuitically drawn away from the real subject.—
( Hear, and oh, oh.) The facts on which the Gentleman
dwelt, and by which he attempted to lure his audience,
the House was not called on to szlecide that night. It was only
called on to decide on the principle, but these were not the
principles. When he dwelt so much on those offices which
certain functionaries held in Ireland under the existing Corpo-
rations, and which would be left them by the Bill, he was not
dealing fairly with the House or with the Bill itself. He dwelt
at considerable length, and with what he doubtless considered
—as did his party from their cheers—force, on the fact of the
Bill in its original shape having been carried through that
House by a large majority. But as it was opposed by a considera-
ble minority, surely that minority when backed by a large majo-
rity in the other House of Parliament, forming an aggregate of
numbers more than the majority of that House—surely under
such circumstances, the opinions of that minority were entitled
to more respect than the taunts of the Hon. Member and his
party would lead one to suppose they deserved.—( Cheers from
the Opposition, mingled with groans from the Ministerial
side.) They talked much of approximating the mode of
electing certain officers in Ireland to that adopted in Eng-
land. But there was in reality no parity.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) Then, as to the twelve towns about which there
was so much said, and which were proposed to be retained
by the Government and those who upheld the Government—
( Cheers from the Opposition, and " Oh, oh," and continued
interruption from the Government side)—if these were given
up by his side of the House, he really believed it was all they
at present wanted ; but hereafter they would make fresh de-
mands, and demand the rest. Now, of the boroughs before in-
serted in schedule C, containing a population of 200,000, four
had no property at all, and the best had only 13,0001. a-year.
The principle then was not one of property, disguise it as you
may, for some had no property at all.—( A laugh from Mr.
O'Connell, and considerable interruptions frem the Ministerial
side.) He stated the truth, which might be unpalatable for
the Hon. Gentleman and his party to hear, for truth and jus-
tice in argument were not the weapons they always used.—
( Cheers from the Opposition.) But even the principle is
wrong, and unfair, and absurd in other instances. How does
the Hon. Gentleman reconcile, with his professed regard for
justice, the insult he has offered to Newry and Dundalk. by
omitting them in his schedule ? Is it that they have no Cor-
porations ? Why, the Report of the Commissioners proves
that they have charters. He could mention ten places that
either have been omitted or expunged from his schedule. He
had, for instance, left out Middleton and Thomastown, which
had Corporations, and inserted Antrim and Ballyshannon,
which had none. This was an important fact. Guided by
the power of restless and turbulent agitation—( Cheers from
the Opposition)—you complain of the existing Corporations :
they were exclusive, corrupt, and political, if you will. Well,
then, abolish them. Cut away the evil. What more do you
require ? But will you, in hatred of one evil, cherish ano-
ther ? Will you make a new element of mischief grow out of
the old Corporations ?—( Cheers and groans.) You cry out
against existing exclusiveness, and in the same breath you
create a new exclusiveness, a more relentless and dangerous,
because a more powerful, exclusiveness. The old Corpora-
' tions whose political offences consisted in a steady devotion to the
English connection and to the Protestant creed, you are about
to replace by new institutions, through the instrumentality of
zealous, aspiring, and, perhaps, desperate men, will notoriously
be levelled at that connection and that influence.—(Cheers
from the Opposition, and continued cries of " Hear, hear," and
various unseemly noises from the Ministerial side.) You pro-
pose to extinguish existing Corporations, to provide for the
rights of freemen and charitable trusts, and to provide for
the administration of justice ; but in this you differ from
the English Bill. Is your plan here the same as that of
the English Bill?—If it is not, what then becomes of the
discreditable and dishonest cant of equal principles and
equal justice?—( Cheers.) You propose to appoint Town-
councils—for what ?—not, of course, for the purpose of su-
perintending the domestic concerns of the citizens, for those
can be provided for without the intervention or aid of this
body ; but to rear a crop of busy and mischievous men for
the purposes of criminal agitation and turmoil for the regis-
tration of dissension and popular excitement and discontent—
property they will, in most cases, have now to change for
the use of the townsmen, for in many cases their funds will
scarcely be adequate for the salaries of the Council them-
selves, their clerks, and the expenses of the hall. He
would take the city of Dublin, which he knew best, and
was the most important in population; it was equal to all
those in schedule C, and in wealth was equal to all the other
Corporations together. He would not admit that the Dublin
Corporation was self-elected, or exclusive as a body, taking
into account the functionaries connected with it, and holding
under it. He would admit it was exclusive in religion and
politics—that it was anxious to maintain a long-established
order of things : but while he would consent to the demoli-
tion of this Corporation, he should strongly protest against
its re-construction on a Catholic, and Radical, and anti-
English basis. Abolish this Corporation, and you will
only raise up a permanent Catholic Association, impreg-
nated with all the violence and intolerance of the old
Association, but not containing any portion of its respectabi-
lity or generosity, or its regard to the fundamentals of the Con-
stitution. At a late meeting the other day, in Dublin of the
Trades' Unions, who now put themselves as the future direc-
tors of the affairs of the city, disregarding alike the authority of
Government and Parliament, the object of the speakers ap-
peared to be, and indeed some of them did not labour much to
disguise the fact, to secure to themselves the spoils of the pre-
sent Corporation. The fact was well worthy of the serious
attention of the House, if any fact could make an impression on
Hon. Gentlemen opposite. He had good reason for knowing,
and he spoke advisedly, that the respectable Catholics of Ire-
land thought that it would be much better for the happiness
and prosperity of the country. if the present Corporations were
swept away, and no other agitating ones created in their room.
—( Hear, hear, and confusion.) Away, then, with this sense-
, less, this' fraudulent, this delusive cry of justice to Ireland.
'Phis has ever been the war cry when any inroad was attempted
r on property, freedom, or good order. What the Honourable
Gentleman, Mr. O'Connell, may call justice, every lover of
property or peace would call injustice and pillage, and mob
. and sacerdotal tyranny. According to this theory of
his, every sectarian caay arrogate exclusive truth for
his own creed. You may as well call that Irishman a
disinterested patriot because he wrings from the helpless poor,
voluntary tribute.—(Loud cheers.) This was the real argu-
ment. He was as anxious as any other to see full justice done
to Ireland, but not the one-sided, the false justice of the Hon.
Member. But it was easy to pronounce from the words of
the Hon. Gentleman himself what he considered justice. He
has said the British people could never have justice till they
had annual Parliaments, vote by ballot, universal suffrage, and

no property qualification.—( Cheers and laughter.) So much
for his justice to England, and he (Mr. Shaw) hoped Govern.
meat v, ould appreciate these notions of justice. Then, as to his
justice to Ireland, Ireland he has over and over again declared,
could not have full justice till the Church was destroyed.
Then as to justice to the empire, there could be none till the
Union was repealed. As to the law, his sense of justice was
that it was to be resisted ; but this frequently ended in active
resistance, which caused bloodshed, lamentation, and ruin,
the too often consequences of charitable and patriotic re-
commendation. Well, again, as to property—( Interruptions
from the Ministerial side, Mr. C'Connell cried out, " Spoke,
spoke.") No doubt the Hon. Gentleman was anxious to
put to an end to the argument ; but he would ask,
would the House take its notions of justice from a man whose
notions of it were so loose and contradictory, and opposed
on every point to the feeling of the House and the country?
—( Hear, hear, hear.) So late as yesterday he went about
from meeting to meeting, abusing and slandering. every
institution of the State, and the greatest individuals in the
country, in language, though becoming him, disgraceful
even for his rude and disreputable auditory to hear. But would
he render to others that measure of justice which he requires
for himself? No, he would not. Would he render them that
degree of justice that all acknowledge ? Will he yield to
every man what is due to him ? Will he give equal law, and
ensure safety to life, protection to property, and the enjoy-
ment of sound, wholesome, and rational liberty to the poor as
well as the rich ? Will he shield them from brutal outrage on
the one hand, and the grasp of selfish avarice on the other ?
—( Loud cheering from the Opposition.) If this Bill should
be passed, the effect would be to do injustice to the Protes-
tant population of Ireland in the name of justice. It would
awaken party animosity, and arouse the flames of discord
which now preyed upon the very vitals of the country, render-
ing property insecure, and putting life itself in danger.
What, he would ask, was meant by the cry of justice for
Ireland ? If that cry was to be heard, let it be taken it its
fair and proper sense—fiat justitia mat calum. (The Right
Honourable Gentleman, on resuming his seat, was loudly
cheered.)
Mr. CALLAGHAN denied the assertion that Ireland was
ruled by Priests and demagogues. With respect to the
Priests they had quite enough to do in attending to their spi-
ritual duties, and if they occasionally asserted their rights as
citizens by attending public meetings, surely no man would
deny that they were justified in doing so ? With regard to
the amendments of the Lords, their effect would be to place
the Corporation funds of Ireland in the hands of persons by
whom the trust would be abused, and in short all the existing
abuses of the Corporations would be perpetuated if those
amendments wero carried ; whereas, by the Bill of the At-
torney-General for Ireland the orporate funds would be
fairly distributed, and appropriated to their original objects.
Mr. BROWNE observed that there could be no stronger
argument in support of justice for Ireland than the fact of the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shaw), himself an Irish
Judge, asking what was meant by the phrase. Surely no
stronger argument could be -urged to strengthen the demand.
The Gallant Colonel (Conolly) had spoken that evening,
and talked a great deal about the mischievous effects of agita-
t on. But was there no agitation amongst those whom the
Gallant Colonel was politically associated with ? Had they
not themselves profited by it ? For it was quite clear that the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself was placed by
agitation alone in his present situation as Member for the Uni-
versity of Dublin, as were also the two Hon. Gentlemen who
now represented that city.
Mr. FINCH rose, amidst loud cries of " Adjourn," and
" Divide." Since the pariod at which Ireland was ad-
mitted to a participation in .the blessings of the British Con-
stitution she bad been curs e'd by a system of agitation which
unfortunately existed there even up to the present hour,
and he was perfectly convinced that the Bill proposed by
his Majesty's Government -would, under the plea of intro-
ducing corporate reform, produce tenfold the evils it pro-
fessed to remedy, and give a new impulse to agitation, dis-
cord, and outrage. He thought that it was the duty of the
British Legislature to pause -before they consented to abolish
one monopoly by the substitution of another far more objec-
tionable than that which now existed. He was sure, whatever
might have been said to the contrary, and however strongly
Hon. Members opposite might feel upon the subject, their own
calm good sense must tell them that the House of Lords had
an equal right to exercise their judgment as the House of
Commons had to decide upon measure brought before them.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) It could not be denied that certain parties
who supported the Government in this measure bad ulterior
objects in view. The House had been told by a gentleman
who belonged to that party that nothing but the total extinction
of Tithes would satisfy the people of Ireland. Thus had one
concession led to the demand for others, and he was quite sa-
tisfied that the effect of the present Bill would be to establish
Catholic supremacy in Ireland.—( Cheers. )
The debate was adjourned until to-morrow; and then the
other Orders of the Day having been di-posed of, the House,
on the motion of Mr. BROTH EfiTON, adjourned at twelve
o'clock.

Mr. HINDLEY presented a petition, signed by upwards
of L9OO persons connected with the Reform Association of
the borough of Warrington, against the Lords' amendments of
the Irish Municipal Bill.

ORD WILLIAM BENTINCK, M.P., (late
J Governor-General of India), will take the Chair at a
PUBLIC MEETING, to be held in Exeter Hall, Strand, on
WEDNESDAY next, the 15th inst., at Twelve for One o'Clock pre-
cisely, to consider the Claims of Mr. BUCKINGHAM, M.P.
for Sheffield, for the losses and sufferings entailed upon his Family
by the destruction of their property in India.—Many other Mem-
bers of Parliament who advocated these Claims in the House of
Commons have also engaged to honour the Meeting with their
presence and support.—The friends of justice and humanity, with-
out distinction of party or politics, are therefore earnestly invited
to attend.