The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

-ot the 25,000,0001. being necessary to be paid off, which was
'a question for the consideration of Parliament. The next
was the new mode of taking the assents by requiring the dis-
sents, which' was different from Mr. Pelham's method. The
third was with respect to the time proposed for giving the dis-
sents, and also the manner in which it was proposed to pay off
those who dissented. There was one point more—Did the
Noble Lord (Londonderry) believe what he himself told the
House, with regard to the prosperity of the country ? If he
did, he would gain by delay—(Hear, hear !) ; but if the Noble
'Lord knew the contrary was the case, he, in that cave, had some
reason to hurry the Bill.
Mr. LUSH INGTON said no one regretted more than he
the absence of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the
e:xchequer, as he could adequately reply to all the points of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney.), On one point, indeed,
he felt it easy to satisfy the Right Hon. Gentleman. With re-
spect to the paying off of 55,000,0001., it would be seen, by the
51.1 orthe late King, that 238,000,0001. of the public debt were
then declared to be satisfied and discharged. A reference to that
Act would be enough to meet that point. He would main-
tain that there was the greatest similarity in the present plan
to the plan of Mr. Pelham, and he would read the history of
that transaction, •as recorded in Smollet's History of England.
The Honourable Gentleman then read the passage, which may
-be found in the 7th chapter of Smollett's Continuation. The
question was, whether the terms proposed were consistent with
justice and public faith ? The holders had an option whether
they would take 1051. in the new stock for each 1001. in the old,
or take 100 J. in money, according as it might be settled by Par-
liament. Ample time was given by the Bill to those who were
absent from the country. He would submit every clause to the
Committee, where they might receive the fullest discussion.
Mr. ELLICE said that the statement of the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Lushington) was no answer to the objection of his
Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney.) He would not go
into the law of the case. 'When, in 1813, the House resolved
that '238,000,0001. of the National Debt was redeemed, they
did that in contemplation of an alteration in the Sinking
Fund, but it had no reference to the Act of 1797. It ap-
peared to him a most extraordinary proposition to maintain
that 25,000,0001. stood redeemed ; whereas, in 1822, the 4
and 5 per Cents. were double what they had been in 1797.
kle thought the nresent very different from I,lr. Pelham's
plan, nor did he think the situation of the country now like
what it was at that time. Mr. Pelham gavethem three month's
time. The Right Hon Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, gave only sixteen days, and gave as his reason that if
more time were given, it would only give rooni for speculation.
He (Mr. Ellice) would suppose a person residing in Scotland to
hold some of that stock; it wasnecessary he should make up his
mind some days before the expiration of the limited period.—
Suppose some news arrived then from Russia or Turkey, or
any other part of the-Continent, on the last day, a person resid-
-ing in London, who need not givein his dissent before, would
have the advantage. It was the Bill, then, and the want of
time in it, that gave room for speculation. Mr. Pelham gave
ample time to consider, when there could be little difficulty
in coming to a determination. Many difficulties existed at
present, and sufficient time ought to be given. He wished
to know what provision was made in case two or more, who
held stock jointly, differed, and that one assented but the other
dissented. Were they to go into Chancery ? But he did not
see the public would gain any thing by the plan. On account
of the bonus of 5 per cent., there would be no more than a
saviog of 1,000,0001. in eight years.—(Hear, hear!)—He
thought more would be gained by a different mode of reducing
the Debt. If, in imitation of Mr. Pelham, 43 per cent. were
given for a limited period, and then 4 per cent. without any
bonus, but with more time to consider, something might be
gained. But why were they in such haste? The first would
not be until January, 1823. 'lf more time were given, it would
be more creditable to the country and more just towards the
holders. With respect to the benefit to be derived from the
Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, it was like his plans of a Sink-
lag Fund—he borrowed with one hand to lend with the other.
'Mr. GRENFELL said, that he must always differ with his
Right Honourable Friend with much reluctance, acid with great
. diffidence. With respect to the objection that had been thrown
out—first, as to the legality of the proposed plan ' • and secondly,
as to the point of good faith, on both questions he was equally
clear. With respect to the clause in the Act of Parliament that
. had been quoted, the strong impression on his mind was, that 25
millions, of the public debt having been cancelled, removed en-
tirely the difficulty which had been stated, and that in point of
law, and in point of good faith, the Legislature was competent to
.carry the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman into effect.
was glad to see in his place an Hon. Gentleman whose opi-
men on the law, he hoped, would be given to the House. A great
deal had been said with respect to the plan of Mr. Pelham ; it
appeared to him that the House had nothing to do with Mr. Pel-
ham's plan. The question for the Housewas, whether consistent-
-with law, and with good faith towards the public creditor, the
;Legislature was competent to entertain the present measure .?3.
He thought it was, he approved of the measure generally, both
in principle and detail. There was indeed one point which was
open to objection; he thought some little time ought to be given
acre than was intended, for creditors to express their assent or
:.dissent to the measure. His Honourable,Fnend had said, that
at a future period, public credit might be advanced still higher,
. and a better-bargain might be made than the present. The fact
might be so, but for his part he- was willing to avail himself of
the advantages which the present state of the country afforded,
•.vithout-waiting for future times, or future events. If, at a fu-
cure period, greater advantages should present themselves, be
would not regret his support of the plan now proposed. Ope-
rations of a similar nature might be proposed—Wear, hear !
: from Lord Londonderry),—and the Government and the coun-
- try would, have the opportunity of availing themselves of such
advantages as the state of the country might hold out.
Ar. TIERNEY explained. He made no objection to the
principle of the measure,; he objected to the mode of carrying
it into effect.

Mr. HUSKISSON said, he thought there could be little doubt
.indeed that the plan of his Right Honourable Friend was con-
-sistent with the principles of public faith, and of law. With re-
spect to the right of paying off the Five per Cents., the Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) alluded to a clause in the
-37th of the King, which stated that the Five per Cents. weee not
e to be paid off until a sum of 25 millions of the National Debt
should be redeemed. The words of the Act, he was willing to
say, would admit of various constructions ; but one construction,
.• he thought, could not, with any appearance of reason, be put
upon the words of that Act. It could not be contended that the
condition would not be'fulfilled until the debt,as it stood in the
year 1797, should be reduced by 25 millions. It might per-
• haps be argued, that if the Government borrowed with one hand
• to pay off debt with another, that, though debt might be no-
minally reducial, the:condition would not be fulfilled, be-
-cause In fact the country, whilst it was paying off debt in
one way, would be increasing debt in another. But that door
- was open to the opposers of the measure. The country had
bona fide paid Off 25 millions of debt by the redemption of the
-Land Tax. 'Unless, therefore, Gentlemen .were to contend
eetliat the country at the present day was bound to reduce the
Licht by 25 millions below what it was in 1792, when it .
amounted to 230, millions ; or that any bona tide reduction of
-.-the debt did not amount to a redemption, he thought that
it was plain that the condition, as stated in the Act of Par-
liament, had been fulfilled ; and there could be no doubt but
that Parliament had a right to deal with the Five per Cents. in
the manner proposed. The Hon, Gentleman (thell. 'ember for
' Coventry) objected to the mode proposed. He (Mr. II.) re-
gretted that his- Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was unavoidably absent, because, if in his place, he'
would be much better able• to explain the details of his plan
than he (Mr. H.) could possibly be. The Hon. Member ad-
vanced what appeared to him an extraordinary proposition.—
He stated, that in the course of eight years the saving to the
country would amount but to a million. Undoubtedly, if they
looked but to the nominal amount of the debt, the Honourable
Gentleman might entertain that view of the question ; but
looking to the burthen which was actually upon the coun-
try, the first effect of the measure would be to diminish
that burthen by a sum of '1,200,0001.- forthwith. If in 1792
Mr. Pitt had reduced the Five per Cents., which he (Mr. Hus-
kisson) lamented he did not do—if he had reduced the Four
per Cents. to thirty-two, at compound interest, the whole of the
debt might have been annihilated at the present day. If the
Goveinment did not avail itself of the state of the public credit
to reduce any part of the public debt, they might forego every
opportunity, and leave the country burthened with a heavy rate
of interest. With respect ,to what had been said, that sufficient
time had not been given to creditors to express their disst, the
House would bear in Mind that the public, since the Resolution
of his !tight Hob. Friend had been moved in that House in the
latter end of Feb., had full notice of them easure, and every person
had been put in possession of the plan ; and, after all, what.had
, the creditor to decide upon ?
.The proposition of his Right Hon.
Friend was this—either to pay off the creditor his full demand,
or to give him 1051. in the four per cents ; in fact, whether he
• should take his 1001. or accept of what was better ? That was the
question' for the public creditor, and he really did not think one
. so difficult to determine.' The shortness of the time was objected
1to• 16 days were allowed—or in point of fact, between 30 and
40 days, to the creditor to determine whether he would receive
1001 or something better. Had there been more time, given,
he (Mr. H.) was of opinion that it would have led to unfair
• speculations. The 'Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney)
' had desired the House to wait for the result of the negociations
between Russia and 'Turkey. To that he would answer, that
if the country were not to pay off a part of its debt, leaving a
• high rate of interest, until the-state of Europe should be en-
tirely settled—until all doubts should be' cleared away—they
would lose every chance of redeeming their debt--they would,
let every opportunity pass away. Every public event was
:likely to affect, more or less the state of public credit ; what
,:•security • had they against the further proceedings of .Parlia-