The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-07 00:00:00

not now see in his place, had said something which seemed
to him (Lord Falmouth) to be pretty nearly of the same
tendency. He did not exactly remember the precise terms,
but he hoped that the Noble Lord's sentiments were not so
cautiously enwrapped, or so delicately expressed, as to him
they seemed to be, and that there was less of covered
meaning in his language than might at first be supposed.
—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Falmouth) would not hear it
said that their Lordships were not part of the people.
They would prove that they were so, and that they felt
with the people, and that they had a due regard for the
people's intereet by rejecting the Reform Bill, A Noble
Marquis opposite had spoken cf the great Reforms which
his Majesty's Ministers had effected in the law. Now
he (Lord. Palmontlr) would say, " Show me these
great Reforms and I will support them ;" and further,
" Show me the imperfections which you say are to
be found in the Church, and I will assist you in removing
them ; and if yen show me a plan of Reform which
is the resters of calm deliberation, which bears upon it the
masks of legislative wisdom, and of a faithful regard to
the principles of the Constitution, and which has had the
approbation of the people properly ascertained, and which
has received the sanction of a House of Commons; not de-
legated in a time of high excitement ; to such a measure
I will give my consideration, with the most sincere wish
that I may find it consistent with the declaration of the
Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government that
he would re's do anything which could endanger the sta-
bilise/ of the institutions of this country."—(Cheers.)
But then lie could not persuade himself to support the
Bill now before the House, or to believe that by any
metamorphosis it could lie made such as their Lordships
might wisely assent to, and nothing should induce him to
take part in the destruction of the British Constitution.
The Earl of ROSEBERY said, that after the long die.
cussion that had been had upon the Bill, both before their
Lordships and in the other House of Parliament, and the
consideration which had been given to it by every reflect-
ing mind, from its first announcement to the present mo-
ment, he should not feel himself at liberty to occupy their
Lordships further than to enter in the most concise man-
ner into an explanation of the views by which he was in-
fluenced in supporting the motion now before the House.
The question was, that the Bill laid upon the table by the
Noble Earl near him, should he read a second time. In
voting for the affirmative, he must beg, in the outset, to
state, that he had not been at first an advocate for Reform
in Parliament ; and that if he had any prejudices to over.
come in considering the question before them, he bad, at
least, not to surmount the prejudices of an old Reformer,
but rather of one who was brought to the support of the
present measure from the necessity of the times—
(Hear)—that lie was reconciled to it by the wisdom
of the views of those by whom it had been prepared, and who
seemed to him to have been called to power for the great
good of the nation in those particular times --(Hear.) He
had for a long time past been of opinion that either the Par-
liament must consent to a gradual amelioration of the re-
presentation of the people, or that uncontroulable circum-
stances would arise by which the whole question insist be
brought at once under the consideration of Parliament,
and a full, comprehensive, and satisfactory measure be
brought forward under the controul of his Majesty's Mini-
sters.—(Cheers.) The opportunity fur the Legislature
to proceed upon the former principle—that is, to effect
a gradual improvement of the representation, had gone
by. Never, perhaps, had a valuable opportunity been
more completely lost than in the last Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) When, therefore, it was taken into con-
sideration that the neglect of that opportunity led to
the overthrow of the late Government, he must say
that, neither with a proper feeling of respect to the
Crown, nor in justice to the people, who were all agreed
upon this subject, nor with a due regard to the interests
of the country, to which peace and order were the greatest
requisites, would the Ministers of the Crown be justified
if they had not introduced a full, comprehensive, and
satisfactory measure.—(Cheers.) He had the highest
respect for the Noble Duke lately at the head of his Ma-
jesty's Government, and, in common with the rest of the
country, he had the deepest sense of gratitude for the
services which the Noble Duke had rendered to his
country. Yet he could not think otherwise than that the
Noble Duke and his colleagues were (as had been fairly
stated on another evening) the real authors of the plan of
Reform now submitted to their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.)
By deciding against any gradual alteration of the repre-
sentation of the people they bad left the Government
which succeeded them no alternative but such a measure
as they had now proposed.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared
to him that those who did not see the necessity at the
present moment of a great measure of Reform, did not
understand the great alterations which had taken place in
the state of society in this country, or the wants of the
people, or the means to be adopted for remedying those
wants.—(Cheers.) Neither did he think that those who
characterised the Reform Bill as a revolutionary measure
judged correctly as to the sources from which, in these days,
revolutions are likely to spring, or as to the means by which
a crisis tnay be averted, and the remedies devised for the
evils under which a nation may be suffering.— (Hear.)
He would assure their Lordships that he did not support
the present measure from a blind attachment to the Mem-
bers of his Majesty's Government. If the Bill should he
sent into a Committee he would show their Lordships that
lie was prepared to act with impartiality by giving his
best consideration to its various clauses, and by voting, un-
influenced by party, for those improvements of which he
might fully approve. He was by no means, as he had
already said, a blind supporter of his Majesty's Ministers,
and he felt no hesitation in stating that there were parts
of the measure which lie could have wished had not ori-
ginally been engrafted upon it.—(llear.) There were
some of those enactments which lie thought inexpedient,
it would now be more injurious to withdraw than to allow
them to remain. But there were others which seemed to
him to he susceptible of improvement in Committee;
wherefore it was, he thought, advisable to carry the Bill
one stage further and say how it could be improved.—
This however he must say, that if his Majesty's Ministers
had not introduced a measure of which the grand outline
seas the abolishing of the nomination boroughs and the im-
provement of the representation of the people by the ex-
tension of the franchise, and by a change in the mode of
taking elections--including at the same time some im-
provement of the representation of Scotland, they would
have deceived the Crown, betrayed the people, and have
lost the confidence of the country which they now justly,
possessed.—(Hear, hear.) If they had introduced a mea-
°ure which would only have been temporarily con-
ciliating, and ultimately productive of aggravated irri-
tation, their Lordships would have far less reason than
they now had to give to such a measure the stamp of their
approbation. —(Cheers. ) The more prominent objections to
the Bill were reducible to two, in which all the others
were involved. The first was, that it was fraught with
danger to the Constitution ; the second, that it was totally
inadequate to the purposes for which it was designed. He
believed that the danger was apprehended as likely to arise
from too large a democratic influence in the Legislature,
to the destruction of the influence of the Aristocracy, which
was essential to the preservation of the Monarchical form of
Government. No doubt it was true that the Bill would
,innihilate the power of a few individuals who possess ex-
clusively and in themselves the power at present of sending
Members into the other House. But it was not to be
pretended that the Bill would not leave to those individuals
ell the influence which their rank and title and personal
merits gave them a just claim—(Cheers)—at the same
I time that it would bring into beneficial action the influence
of the great property of the country, which was now ex-
tinguished or overwhelmed by the influence, to diminish
which was the object of the Bill.—(Hear.) If he thought
that the Bill would overthrow the just influence of the
landed proprietors and the hereditary aristocracy of this
country, which influence was, he thought, essential to
good Government under a monarchy, it never should have
received the least support from him. But he believed that
the aristocracy would gain as a body more of that influ-
ence, which was inseparable from their position in society,
than they could possibly derive from the present disreput-
able and odious power, which it was impolitic for them to
retain, as being subversive of the real ends of Parliament.
It had been said, and repeatedly said by the Noble Rail
who spoke last, and he thought also by the Noble Duke
opposite (Lord Wellington) that the House of Com-
mons would be converted into an assembly of delegates,
chosen in such a manner as to be under the sway of
every breath of popular clamour. He would be the last
man to defend any plan of such a tendency, or to main-
tain that such a change would be beneficial to the country.
But he confessed that he did not think it likely that
such a consequence would follow ; looking to the
prin-
ciples of the Bill itself, as to the experience which their
' Lordships had of those who had hitherto beer' the repre-
sentatives of populous places, it was impossible to assert
that the representatives of large towns had hitherto been
under the dominion of those by whose votes they were
elected. He did not think that those, who opposed the
Bill on the ground that it would give a power of delegation,
were not consistent with themselves; for be begged to ask
them what were the Members of the nomination boroughs ?
What were they but delegates, sent to support the opinions
of their nominators? And there was this difference be-
tbsovdeeynof
pneoomplien,attinhoat
hboy individua
ls
ionaanbd delegation
ie
populous usbylt
delega-
tion might be, the nomination by individuals was liable to
this additional objection, that it was not made for the fur-
therance of any plan of public advantage, however absurd,

but to promote the peculiar interest of the individual who
possesses the nomination.—(Cheers.) Again, it was said
that this measure would paralyze the influence of the Exe-
cutive, and deprive the Monarchy of all power. He did
not see bow such a result was to be brought about. On
the contrary, he thought rather that it would disembarrass
the Government of the country from a power which at
present disabled them from proceeding in the way in
in which they might think their public duty required.
—( Hear, hear.) The next general objection to the plan
was, that it was destitute of necessity. He confessed be
was surprised to bear that assertion made by some Noble
Lords who belonged to the late Administration : whereas
they must know that the necessity, was apparent from this
fact, that it was impossible for them to continue in the
conduct of the affairs of the nation in consequence of their
inability to introduce a measure of Reform.—(Hear,
hear.) It might now be admitted by those Noble Lords
that the Government could not be carried on without
some Reform. But they never said so before—(Cheers)_
although the Noble Duke retired from office technically for
the reasons assigned by the Noble Duke, but substantially,
lie (Lord R.) believed, from their unwillingness or in-
ability to bring forward the question of Reform. But now
it was admitted that some plan of Reform was indispens-
able, but that this was not the plan which could answer.
He thought, with all deference to the Noble Lords who
argued so, that, before they refused the second reading of
a Bill, the principle of which was a full and comprehen-
sive Reform, they ought to ascertain with mere precision
than they had what the system was which should be
adopted in its stead. For otherwise this difficulty would
arise to their Lordships' deliberations, that the public would
think, and that many of their Lordships would also think,
either that no system was ever intended to be introduced,
or that the plan actually to be introduced would be delu-
sive and unsatisfactory. He would take the liberty of
asking what did their Lordships mean to do if they did
not permit the second reading of that Bill, which was
founded upon principles admitted by most of their Lord-
ships—(No, no)—and of which the plan was defined and
intelligible?—(No, no.) By going into Committee, they
would give an opportunity for those alterations which might
seem necessary or expedient. They might depend upon it,
that whatever might be the opinions in that House, there
was but one opinion throughout the country, that if the
Bill were rejected, they meant either to delude the people,
or to effect no real Reform in whatever they should do.-
-(Hear, hear.) No one could deny their Lordships'
right to negative the Bill if they should see fit to do so.
No one would more warmly than he support the pi isileges
and rights which they possessed, for he believed that those
rights and privileges were given for the preservation of
the just influence of the throne, for security of property.
and for the maintenance of peace and order.—( Hear, hear.)
Yet lie did feel some doubt as to whether, under the cir-
cumstances in which the Bill had been introduced, their
Lordships were not travelling out of the course which the
Constitution has assigned them, in rejecting the second
reading of a Bill which had been introduced by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, with the nninimous consent of the Ca-
binet, as a measure which they conceive to be necessary to
the welfare of the country. It was to be remarked that
that Cabinet was composed of some of the most influential
men in the kingdom, and that several of them had hitherto
been opposed to Reform, and would not have consented to
the measure if the most irrefragable proof of its necessity
bad not been brought before them. That measure came
to their Lordships also supported by a large majority of
the other House of Parliament, seconded by a unanimity
amongst the people at large, such, perhaps, as no other
measure had ever been received with.—(Hear, hear.)
had been said on the other side, that a great change bad
taken place in the sentiments of the people on this sub-
ject. Where was the evidence of that change? Not in
the petitions certainly. Fer, by a preponderance which
he did not wish to exaggerate, the majority of the peti-
tions laid upon the table were in favour of Reform, anti
not only of the principle of the present Bill.—(Much
cheering.) Nay, more, he believed that if the petitions
presented on the other side were examined with greater
accuracy, they would be found to be not petitions against
the Bill, hut praying their Lordships to do what he also
(Lord Rosebery) would beg them to do—that is, to take
this important question into their most serious considera-
tion. He thought, therefore, that it was inexpedient—he
would not say beyond their legal right, but out of their
constitutional province—that is, out of the line of those
duties which it was obviously the meaning of the Consti-
tution that this Mouse should perform—that they.should
interpose and forbid a measure which came recommended
by the Crown, adopted by a majority of the House of Coin-
moos, and supported by the people with unparalleled un-
animity.—(Hear.) The arguments which he had heard
from the Noble Lords opposite seemed to be more generally
directed against the details of the Bill than against its
principles ; or, he should rather say, that their Lordships
rather gave way to lamentations of the necessity of the
measure, than offered proofs that the necessity did not
exist, or that the remedy proposed was not adequate.—
(Cheers.) He confessed that, independently of all consi-
derations of the constitutional propriety of their Lordships
refusing to consider a Bill brought before them under such
circumstances, he thought it in the highest degree inexpe-
dient and useless; for, if the Bill were at once rejected, or
set aside in the more cautious and less offensive mode pro-
posed on second thought by the Noble Baron opposite (Lord
Wharncliffe), he could not persuade himself but that their
Lordships, however opposed to this Bill (with the principles
of which so many Lords opposite agreed), would be under
the necessity of considering a measure far less consonant
to their feelings, and with this great deduction from the
benefit to be produced by it, that it will not have the
same efficacy in giving content to the people, in putting
an end to agitation, and in preventing tumult, as the adop-
tion of the present Bill.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend
(Lord Mansfield), who spoke upon the second day of the
debate, with an earnestness which showed his sincerity,
but not with the degree of cautious deliberation as was at
other times to be remarked in his addresses, had proposed
that the question should be postponed for two years. To
that unreasonable suggestion his Noble Friend added a
proposition no less unreasonable, that such a postponement
would not suit his Majesty's Minister., because they did
not desire tranquillity, but were anxious to keep up agi-
tation. But did his Noble Friend suppo,e that a postpone-
ment of two years would put an end to agitation ?
(Cheers.)- It was not a little unkind that they who had
endeavoured to put an end to agitation by meeting the
question at once, should be taunted with wishing to keep
up that agitation.—(Hear.) Their Lordships had been
told by a person of grave authority, by an individual for
whom (although, on some questions, he differed from him)
he had the highest respect, that they ought to discharge
their duty firmly on this question. He would concur with
his Noble Friend in that recommendation; but what he
thought became them was, in the first place, not to reject
the Bill without considering it, but to take it calmly anti
fully into their deliberation ; and, as they did not entirely
condemn its principles, which had been recommended by
the Crown, accepted by the Commons, and approved by
the people, they ought, at least, to look into its provi-
sions.—(Hear, hear.) Could it be their duty, first, to en-
tertain the proposition that the Bill be rejected, and, when
that was thought to he too offensive to the body from
which the Bill had come, then to put it aside by a refusal
less direct, but not less effectual ? Could it be their duty
thus indirectly to negative the principle, which the most
influential opposers of the Bill among them stated must
of necessity be adopted before long ?—(Hear, hear.) He
had looked into the Bill, and he must say, that if he did
not approve of all its details, he felt it to be his duty to
support at least the proposition that it be taken into con-
sideration, as an act of civility, as one would say, in pri-
vate life, to the Crown and to the representatives of the
people. But he would enter into the consideration of its
details with impartiality and firmness, and he would sup-
port any alterations which to him should seem to be im-
provements, if they were so made as to be in accordance
with the views and wishes of the majority of the people.
The Earl of CARNARVON—BefOre I troubled your
Lordships it was my wish to have beard all the grounds
on which Ministers recommend the adoption of a measure
which will change the whole representative system of the
country, and which I took the liberty of calling, on a
former occasion, a new Constitution--(Clieers)—a term
then received with some reprobation, but which no one
will now, I apprehend, venture to deny. Allow me to
remark, that we have yet heard no statesmanlike opening
of the subject. I do not mean to say that my Noble Friend
at the head of the Treasury did not make a speech replete
with eloquence, and in which the great powers for which
he has been distinguished through life were eminently con-
spicuous—(Hear)—but I mean to say, that I never knew
a measure of such magnitude, not even a Turnpike Bill,
laid upon the table without some statement that the state of
the road was not practically good, and that the proposed
remedy would remedy existing defects, and be productive of
great advantages. I have listened with much patience to
sundry of his Majesty's Ministers, but not one of them
took the trouble to show us the practical evils of the pre-
sent system, or the practical benefits of the proposed
change.—(Cheers.) It is not wonderful, therefore, that
I should wish to have waited until the rest of the Cabinet,
having seats in this House, had delivered their sentiments,
that I might know whether they really had any thing to
offer. I felt, however, that if I had delayed until they
bad all been heard, I might not have had sufficient strength
left to address your Lordships at all. Hitherto Ministers
have told us that the sole point for consideration is the