The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-18 00:00:00

receive compensation uncle! the Bill. He was pre-
p ired to admit that no distinction ought to be
made between the claims I clerks of turnpike trusts
to compensation and othe: cfficers whose offices had
been abolished, and it would lecome matter of consideration
tie House what course it would pursue with respect

to that. For himself, he was not prepared to submit any
plan upon this subject for tla consideration of the House.
After the fullest consideratsn he could give the sub-
ject, it was his firm belie that the Bill, if carried,
would effect the greatest improvement in the admi-
nistration of highway and tirnpike trusts.— (hear, hear.)
He was anxious that the Hotse shculd fairly consider this
question and the difficulties tlat surrounded it ; but at the
same time there was no wisi on the part of the Govern-
ment to urge the House to a precipitate decision. The
eresent might not be tilt most favourable moment
for dealing with this quesion, but the condition of
many of these trusts woe not solvent, and the
question ought not therefore b be delayed to any extent.
At the end of every session of ?arliament Government was
called upon to renew a large nutaber of local Turnpike Trust
Bills, but owing to the case; he had just mentioned,
many Acts were compelled to be excep:ed, which
gave rise to a good tied of objection on the
part of those who were interest-6:1 in them. Now that was
a difficulty Government were snsious to get rid of ; and he
thought, therefore, that if some general measure were not
passedi this session, it would certainly- be necessary for the
House to take some steps with regard to the insolvent trusts
that were demanding of Goverment a renewal of their
sill. lie was perfectly aware of the invidious duty Govern-
ment would have to undertake in deciding which were solvent
and which were not, but if the Boise were prepared to adopt
his suggestion, Government wre bound to undertake that
discriminating duty, whatever might be the consequence
of it.—( Hear, hear.) No doubt many Acts had
been renewed which ouglt not to have
.been,
and no doubt upon the recommeidatiou of the Government,
but the only way to remove that evil was fur the House to
take the question into its own hails. He stated the principal
difficulties which surrounded thii matter; but if the House
would assent to the principle it contained, he was quite ready
to read the Bill a second time, and then refer it to a
Select Committee. The question; relating to highways had
difficult part of the sub-
dready been considered by a Select Committee, but turnpike
roads, which perhaps formed the most di
iect, had not, but the House might refer the Bill to a Select
Committee, who should be instructed to go into the general
question of dealing with turnpike- roads and highways:together.
Apologising to the House for having detained them so long,
he should resume his seat in the full hope that the sug-
gestion he had made would meet with the approbation of
all parties who were anxious for the settlement of this ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, whatever opinion might be held
in the House with regard to the merits of this measure,
brought forward under the auspices of the Hon. Gentleman
who bad just sat down, there could not be a doubt of the
obligation they owed to him for the great attention which he
had paid to this question, embracing a subject not necessa-
-' 'acted with the Executive duties of
an office already overb—dened wltil pnonc uuties. inn
same praise was due to him, too, for the perfect fairness and
candour with which he had dealt with the objections urged
against this Bill; but in dealing with"the objections raised
by this measure, he had omitted altogether the objec-
tions which had been urged by parties of a different
character to those of whom they had heard so
much. The objections they had heard were urged on behalf
of the mortgagees and the clerks connected with the trusts,
but there were other parties who objected to this measure,
and whose objections he represented himself. They were
parties who certainly had no personal interest in the
.natter like that he had just mentioned, but they
were urged by gentlemen who had undertaken functions of an
important and rather arduous character, which were imposed
upon them by the Act of Parliament relating to the admi-
nistration of turnpike trusts. He would put a case
to the House which would illustrate the objection of these
gentlemen. In many of the manufacturing districts the roads
were kept in the best possible state of repair for the conve-
nience of the public, while, perhaps, in some adjoining agri-
cultural districts the highways were in a bad state : was it
-al • now to call upon the manufacturer to repair that too as
,cell as their MR ?—(Hear, bear.) Now that objec-
tion appeared to him to be far more important than
hose which were urged on behalf of mortgagees and clerks
to trustees. It was said that since the reign of Charles 11.
there had been a distinction between turnpike roads and
aigh ways, but that they ought now to be made the subject
of the same law. Ile, however, did not view the matter
in that light. He did not agree with the proposition
,hat because the establishment of railways had rendered some
of our highways unprofitable, they had a right to be supported
by a general rate extending over the whole country.—(Hear.)
Ile observation, as it appeared to him, amounted to this,
that wherever a district had proved deficient, its short-
omings were to be made up by the receipts from other dis-
tricts; so that, wherever a trust had been successful in
discharging its obligations, it was to be mulcted for the
deficiencies of others in which the responsible parties had
been unable to carry out their duties. Thus, where any
trust in the south part of the country had been so unfortu-
nate as to fail in the discharge of its liabilities, the deficiency
was to be made up by the superior advantages of some
district in the north.—(Hear, hear.) Now that seemed to
be just the of ject of the Bill. That was just the objection
which had been made to him, and had been urged much
more strongly than even he had felt it ; but the more he
examined it the more powerful it appeared to be.—(hear,
hear.) He trusted that if this Bill were to be carried i to
Committee, that this was a point which would on no account
be neglected, and he could not help expressing his opinion
that this was a matter which ought to be most fully gone
into.— ( Hear, hear) But his Honourable Friend had not
held out any reason to suppose that this mischief
was at all likely to be remedied.—( Hear, hear.)
He had no reason to suppose that there was to be any insti-
tution analogous to a county court, or that there was to be
any interposition of the county courts.—(Hear, hear.) In the
-,econd place, he could not perceive that his Hon. Friend held
out any hope that the principles of the Bill could in any way
be adapted so that the evils could be avoided and benefits re-
tained—but for this be did not hold out any ground.—( Hear,
bear.) This advantage could certainly not be obtained in
the coarse of the second reading ; but the clauses might be so
arranged in Committee, that every interest might be duly
considered and provided for. Unless this was done, or some-
thing tantamount to this, he should most certainly oppose
the Bill on its third reading. But that the Bill might go
into Committee he decidedly desired, for there were many
points in it which deserved their consideration. Ile was not
aware whether there had been a sufficient distinction made
between highways and turnpikes. If the roads were to be
subjected to some person competent to undertake their super-
eision, such as sn ordinary surveyor, or other person of si-
milar capacity, much of the difficulty would be overcome;
out that they should be snbbjected to the di-
rection of the poor-law guardians was a rule to
which he never could accede. He was not, in all this, ar-
guing against the institution of poor-law guardians, or against
the principle that they should have cognizance of matters
the expenses for which were to be paid out of the local rates.
But he did see great difficulty in making these highway dis-
. rids consentaneous with the poor-law unions _(sear, hear.)
He thought that the poor-law guardians had quite business
enough to transact without having to give their attention also
to the highways. Neither could he conceive that thehighway
districts could, with any likelihood of convenience or business
dracticability, be equalised with those of the poor-law unions.
fo attempt any such classification Was in fact to throw the
Highways into the po. r-law unions.— (Hear, bear.) He
laought that the general feeling of the House was this—
that it was necerary some great alteration should be
made with respect to the highways, but that there should be
a sufficient distinction drawn between the solvent and the
insolvent trusts in any legislation which might be carried
into effect concerning them. Unless the distinction were
made, he must any that he could not consent to the passing
of the Bill, or to the ad option of any principle in which such
a regulation was not involved.
Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS said that he would not enter
late a consideration of the numerous objections which had
been made against the measure, either in the House, or in
the numerous notices which he had received objecting to the
Bill, but he might say, in reply to the remark which had
just been made, respecting the position which the several
trusts would assume after this Bill was passed.—(Hear.)
In reply to that remark, he might observe, that it was
no means intended that the whole of these trusts were
to be thrown into botch potch, but the property of each
trust was to be valued, and the market price havieg been
ascertained, the several bondholders would have debentures
of 100/. each issued to them, and these would be the securi-
ties on which their property would be based.
Mr. HUME was rejoiced that the House had at last taken
up and evinced so much interest in the important subect of
turnpike roads. Forty years ago he had endeavoured to
obtain a consolidation of these trusts; and when, in 1826, hr
brought the subject before the House, it was a matter of deep re-
gret to him that the whole question had not then been settled.
He submitted to the Government, after the valid objections
which han been made—and which had not been answered—
the Bill could not be carried.—(Hear.) Bt the same time a
Committee should be appointed to inquire into and repor upon
the subject. He admitted that the landed interest were too
heavily taxed on account of the maintenance of the highways.
and would support any reasonable proposition brought for-
ward with the view of alleviating them. He urged the
Government to withdraw the Bill.
Mr. SPOONER complained that roads in a good
condition were joined with roads that were insol-
vent. Trustees in such case had a strong reason
to complain. Parties in the district with which he was con-
nected had subscribed to roads, not for profit, but fcr the be-
qefit of the public. They expected at any rate not to be
c.mpelled to lose their money, which would be al-
most the case if this Bill were passed, since the
money which they bad advanced would not be
received upon the particular roads on which they had advanced
it—it would go into a general fund, and would be repaid
in instalments extending over a period of 30 thirty years. The
clerk of the roads in his neighbourhood had intimated to him
that they did not oppose the Bill from interested motives,
is they wereawilling to forego their claims—( Hear)— but with
view to have their clients interests properly attended to.
Hehad presented a number of petition from North Stafford-
shire against the Bill, and objecting to local management
being taken out of their hands. If the House were to peruse
the evidence
of Mr. M'Adam, they would see that the fears
of the gentlemen who opposed the Bill were not groundless.
He took it to pay
the interest which was not now paid,
and therefore applied that money for the repairs of
the roads, and thee the repairs of the roads were to be
kept up by the district rate. He had numeroth,
petitions sent to him against this Bill from various
parts of the country ever since the Bill had been in contem-
plation. At all events the country was against the measure.
He should most decidedly support the amendment of the
Hon. Member for the West Riding.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Government would conset to
withdraw the Bill—(Hear)—principally out of concession
to the general expression of opinion against it from one end
of the country to the other. Cumberland, the borough
which he represented, and all the northern counties, refused
to have the Bill on any consideration. They objected to it
first on account of its mixing up the turnpikes and high-
ways. He (Mr. Aglionby) did think that was
a reasonable and valid objection. But the stronge-t objec-
tion with the inhabitants of those counties was that it laid
on them a heavier degree of taxation, and added en addi
&nal burden to the county rates. They could not
understand why they should be saddled with
debts contracted with respect to turnpike roads
by improvident turnpike trustees. Much of the money had
been thrown away extravagently by the ignorance and inca-
pacity of those intrusted with its management. Upon there
grounds he hoped the Government would not press the mo-
tion to a division; at all events, he for one should vote
against the measure.
Mr. HENLEY hoped the Government would 'Withdraw
the Bill—(IIear, hear)—for he really thought there was no-
thing left of it to go to a Select Committee, The Govern-
ment did not show that they had any mind on the subject,
but the blouse was pledged to some unknown concitions.—
( Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman said with regard
to the county rates, there would be no charge on the
county rates worth speaking of; he ( Mr. Henley) knew gen-
tlemen in office thought a sum like 1,0001., which was of
some importance to a small county, was a mere bagatelle.
The Act would net continue the rate of the existing tolls, but
new ones, according tcl a schedule iu On Act, which