The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-14 00:00:00

;eel the slightest scruple of consciemoc in contr:huting
towards the maiateeance of a B-ptist, Wesleyan, or
Roman Catholic place of religious worship, if he-had re-
ceived property subject to such a charge. Untoriunately
there were but too many ways of avoiding a rate. It was
necessary that parties should meet together for the per-
Pose of assessing the amount of it, and a feeling was na-
turally generated in minds unaccustomed to view such
Matters with legal precision that the making of a rate
Was somehow a voluntary act; and this unsatisfactory
restilt often happened—thet if the majority voted for no
rate at all, then, having failed to do that for which they
were met, they were held to have thrown away their
votes, and the minority prevailed. But when marshalled
With more tact and dexterity, instead of making
no rate, they made a very small, and all but
Ito evasive, rate; and the consequence was the
the fabric of the church, unless saved by the production
of more conclusive evidence on the part of surveyors,
Was allowed to fall into a disgraceful suite—(hear, hear)
'ea state in which they would never for a moment suffer
their own private dwellings to remain. At the san e
time, no very great anxiety on this head could be ex-
pected to exist when a large preponderance of Dissenters
Was found, and he had long thought it absolutely acces-
sary, therefore, that steps should be taken to put the
Matter on a more satisfactory footing. Although he
could not agree in the motion to abolish all church-rates,
he saw no reason why the ancient mode of providing
for the repair of the parish church should not be conti-
nued, in deference to all who partook of its advantages.—
(Rear, hear.) There was a difference, however, in the
ease of the Dissenter. Although he could not go the
full length of concurring in their scruples, still he thought
it impossible, looking at the altered state of
the country, to continue any longer the pre-
leot system.—(Hear, hear) The system of church-
rates was one of great antiquity, and founded entirely
on the common law, and was established when the whole
body of the community were of one faith. It was im-
Possible to deny that at present there existed large num-
bers who would not avail themselves of the ministrations
of the Church; and, on the other hand, they saw large
numbers of the Dissenting community contributing on an
extensive scale towards the erection of other buildings
for public worship, which, at all events, showed no re-
luctance to contribute towards what they thought deco-
rous and right towards the worship of the Su-
preme Being. From what source, then, were the funds
to be provided? Some pointed to other church funds,
but the result of debates which had taken place in
that House had shown that there were al-
ready abundant objects for those funds in sup
Plying the wants of spiritual instruction and minis-
tration, and he should therefore be very averse from
diverting any part of those funds towards maintaining
the fabric of the church. There were, no doubt, large
sums raised by voluntary contributions, and many
churches had been built by such means. But there were
some who had such imperfect notions of duty, that,
although desirous of attending worship in the church,
they were most unwilling to contribute a fair proportion
towards maintaining the fabric, and he saw no reason
why these should not be compelled to pay their just quota
towards that object. Without going into a long
discussion, he should satisfy his own feelings by putting
his views in the shape of an amendment to the motion of
the Hon. Member. He would therefore propose to sub-
stitute for the words which came after "that it is the
opinion of this House that effectual measures should be
immediatelycharg taken for," the following words:—"dis-
ing persons dissenting from the Church, as by law
established, from contributing to church rates, and from
taking any part in levying, assessing, or administering the
same." What he meant was, that parties might have an
ePPortunity of registering themselves as wishing to claim
the exemption, but that when so registered they should
be incompetent to vote for any chureh•rate, or any sub-
ject connected with it.—(Hear, hear.) If this view were
carried out at any future time in the shape of a Bill,
there might be a provision prohibiting such persons from
Qecupying pews in church. The difficulty which arose
,Was this: it might be said that a premium was held out
to persons to declare themselves Dissenters. That, how-
ever, he held to be an exaggerated apprehension. He
bad often known those who had refused to pay a rate
unposed by the vestry afterwards come forward volun-
tarily to contribute, and amongst these were found a
number of Dissenters.—(Hear, hear.) Of course they
Would take care that there should be no more ex
tein
pore Dissenters for the purpose of avoiding a
rate • and the disadvantages, after all, of losing these
lukeve' arm Churchmen, who, for the sake of 15s. or
201. would register themselves as Dissenters, he, as
member of the church, did not think of very great im-
Portance. On the other hand, what would be the ad-
vantages of the system which he had recommended? He
thought they would be very great, for by adopting it
they would at once get rid of all the heart-burnings, dis-
Putes, and discussions which took place at the assess-
ment of church rates.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HEADLAJI seconded the amendment, regarding
't as a satisfactory settlement of a complicated question.
There we re large numbers of persons who entertained
conscientious objections to contribute towards the main-
tenance of the fabric of the parish church, and it would
,
rno longer possible to maintain that system. In the
town which he had the honour to represent many Dis-
senters had contributed in a voluntary form that which
they
had refused under a compulsory system. He saw
no reason, however, why those belonging to the Esta-
blishment should not be compelled to contribute, and he
thought the Church of England had a sufficiently strong
hold on the community not to be prejudicially affected
by limiting the contributions levied for the purpose of
Maintaining the fabric of the Church to those who did
not choose to avow themselves Dissenters.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICE had listened to the speech of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Oxford with great satisfaction, for
it had relieved him from a very great difficulty under
which he had always laboured in reference to this sub-
ject. He hoped the Hon. and Learned Member would
follow up his amendment by a Bill. He would venture
to throw out, merely as a suggestion, that a general rate
tight be made throughout the country for the mainte
Hance of religious edifices, the contribution to be applied
to the church of the contributor.

Mr. AGLIONBY could not say that the Hon. and
Learned Member for Oxford had relieved him from any
difficulty; on the contrary, he had placed him in a still
greater one than before. The great objection to the re-
solution of the Hon. Member for Tavistock was that it
was too vague, and many were disposed to say that it
should have been followed up by some definite or ape-
eifio proposal, by which means would be pointed out of
6ilPPlying the defect that would be thereby occasioned in
the funds for the maintenance and repair of the edifice
of the church. His (Mr. Aglionby's) desire was, that
• such rates should no longer exist; but he certainly
Contemplated the substitution of some other mode of
Itaintainin the edifice and performing the services of '
the Church. The Hon. Member for Oxford hail, how-
ever, taken the House by surprise, as he had proposed
Ito amendment of the greatest importance, without
'laving given the slightest previous intimation of his in-
tention. He found there was something wrong at the
bottom of his amendment, and that it would not give
satisfaction generally. Ile certainly was not prepared
'to vote for it, and was rather disposed to support the
original resolution, and have that followed up by some
substitution. One objection to the Hon. Member for,
thford's amendment was, that it would be a premium
Learned
dissent: but it had been urged by the Hon. and
Gentleman that such an allegation would be a
reproach to dissent; and he had followed it up by say-
ing that the Dissenters as a body were too honourable
.0 take advantage of such a plea to escape the payment.
Ile added, that ha had known instances of Dissenters
having refused to vote for a church• rate, and after-
aArds having made a voluntary rate among themselves for
that purpose. He feared, however, that the proposition
dissenters,
operate io this way, that many persons not being
but members of the Churoh of England and
landowners, might pretend to be Dissenters, in order to
get their land freed from this payment. It was urged as
ati objection that the parties had purchased their land at
lower rate as being subject to that tax, but the objec-
tion would be still stronger if the Dissenter was allowed
to go free and the Churchman still obliged to pay. For
is part, he thought there might be an amendment upon
that of the Hon. and Learned Membir for Oxford—
(Rear and laughter)—and he hoped the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would exercise some judgment and discretion
upon it, now that he was in a position to turn those sug-
gestions to account, as a member of the Committee ap•
Pointed to inquire into Church property. He reminded the
House when some years ago a Noble Lard (Monteagle),
then Chancellor of the Exchequer, proposed to the House
a substitute for church-rates. by which they would relieve
not the Dissenters alone, but the Churchmen also. He
proposed that the Church property itself should pay the
rates—(Hear, hear)—and that the Church should ob-
Aain the additional revenues for that purpose by the en-
franchisement of all leasehold ecclesiastical property.
The proposition went off, not because the principle was
not a good one, but because the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer chose to take down his books, and get his actu-
aries to make calculations by which the leaseholders
Would be charged 50 per cent. more than they were en-
titled to pay.—(Hear, hear.) If that proposition were
,putt before the House in a just and satisfactory way, he
Thought those parties would be willing to accept it, and
that it would meet the difficulty of the present question.
If that were done by establishing an equitable valuation
of th s property, the effect would be to set at rest the
kresent disputed question, which had raised between
tt-hurchnsen and Dissenters the most bitter controver-
sies, while it would give a largely increased revenue
to the Church.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he bad in
film
suggestion given the Hon. and Learned Member for
uzford a much better plan than his own, which would
relieve
all parties, and enable the Church to repair and
keep in order its own fabric. He should be prepared at
all times to give his best attention to any plan which
;Would continue the maintenance of the edifice of the
hurch, and at the same time relieve every man who
bad a conscientious objection to the payment of these
rates.

Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not be led into
the discussion of a very intricate question on the present
°teasion. The management of Church property was not
"b`t question then before there. That had been referred
to the consideration of a Committee. He thought it
Would be time enough to discuss that question when they
ad before them the report of that Committee.—(Hear.)
it would confine himself to the two propositions then
before them. With regard to the first he was not pre.
pared to give his assent to it. The Hon. Gentleman
got
at once the abolition of church-rates, but had
Zut indicated any substitute, and he had gone so far as
say that no plan had yet been proposed that would
e satisfactory to those who had conscientious objec-
tions or scruples to the payment of these rates. With
Tigard to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned
ember for Oxford, he certainly felt prepared to admit
with him that it was most desirable to put a stop to the
ear.idal and the scenes that had taken place in populous
15)4tiblies owing to the contests between Churchmen and
la"ienters.—(lJear, hear.) At the same time there wer.e
Peat difficulties connected with it. Looking at the fai-
re of every attempt that had been made to arrange the
I"eattou satisfactorily in that way, he could not help re-