The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-13 00:00:00

TITHE BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for
going into Committee on the Tithe Bill.
Mr. E. BULLER proposed that the word " net" should
be substituted for " gross" in clause 34.
Lord J. RUSSELL opposed the amendment, as tending
to disturb the agreement entered into, which was this, that
where the average amount of tithe received for the last seven
years was from 601. to 751. inclusive, all such cases should
remain undisturbed by the Bill ; where it was from 80/. to
90/. it should be reduced to 751. ; and where it was under
60/. it might be raised, if it should appear to the Commis-
sioners that it was fit. to do so. He did not understand
upon what principle the Hon. Member proposed his amend-
ment. It was not the principle of this Bill which took the
gross, and not the net amount.

Mr. BULLER explained. He proposed a reduction of
10/. per cent. where the lull value of the tithe had been
received for the last seven years.
Lord J. RUSSELL so understood the Hon. Gen-

emun.

Mr. BULLER said his proposition amounted to this :

If the tithepayers were not satisfied with the average of the
last seven years they would be at liberty to demand a new va-
luation of the gross tithe. If upon the average it was

found to amount to any sum from 901. to 1001., then from
such amount a deduction of 10!. per cent. should ho made
Where the amount was between 7.5/. and 80/. he %You'll
make no reduction.. and if it was under 751. be would raise
it to 751. The effect of his proposal would be to allow all

proprietors of tithes throughout the country to retan the
advantages they at present possessed, at the same time that
it would allow of the raising to the 751. per cent. su h tithes

as were now, from the expense of collection, below that
rate. If the Noble Lord proposed to take off 25 per cent.
from the gross amount in certain cases, why might n3t 101.
per cent. be deducted from the net amount in the others?

Lord J. RUSSELL thought, now that he understood
the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that it was
not founded on the same principle of justice as his own.
He could not see the ground for acceding to a proposition
which might practically have the effect of giving a tithe-
owner in one case 80 per cent., and another titheowncr
in another 35 per cent. only, thus leaving a difference of
45 per cent. He thought that a proposition yhich esta-
blished one equalised rate to apply to all ctises was a more
just one, and one which must have a more beneficial effect
than a plan liable in operation to such inequalities: •
Mr. BENETT said there was no question that the gross
demand of the titheowner was for 100 per cent. ; the dif-
ference lay in the expenses of collection. That was the
argument for commutation, because by commutation all that
expense of collection, now lost to both parties, was saved.
S►r R. INGLIA thought that where, on an average of
the seven preceding years, the titheowner had received the
whole of his right, that right ought to be preserved to him
under the measure of commutation. _ _ _

Mr. BL A MIRE said that the more equitable plan would
be that which should ascertain the amount actually re-
ceived, and award that and no more. His opinion was,
al though he was aware that many differed from him in it,
that tithe was a contingent, not a positive property ; and the
tact was, that, practically, in most parts of the country, the
landowner had the power of invading or fencing with the
property of the titheowner, until he brought the demand of
the latter to what he (the landowner) thought reasonable,.
or convenient to himself. In his (Mr. l)lamire's) part of
the country the land was managed in a way of their own.—
(A laugh.) He did not mean to say that they wished to
deprive the clergyman of one farthing that was fairly his

due ; but the plan actoVed was this-the lands were so
subdivided and the tenures mfdfdodl4tiious that it frequently
happened that while one part of a &Miele land was tithe-
able tl:e other was not. When a farmer, thefdifei entered
911 his farm his first step was to endeavour to etTeet COI'
venient dOrtiprv:Dise ; and if the titheowncr did not accede
to his demands the farm' t9ok care that the titheable por-
tion of the land should yield the worst corps.—( Hear,
hear.) He felt so strongly that tithes were a contingent
property, that lie thought they wore entitled to demand
from the titheattner some consideration in return for ren-
dering them a posithe prapetty, As rerarded, the collec-
tiou tithes; there we lie little difficulty where they
were in poosesskin of lay impropriatelts ) but this fact did not
apply to the great ithesss of tithes—those receited at once
by the clergy. Here 1/et thought that a great ititrove-
Ment would be to enforce otl Vtlialf of the clergy in
each parish the payment of the titfie. The most simple
mode of doing this would be to allow a certain consi-

deration for the improved value, and a certain other consi-
deration for the collection of the revenue, arising out of

the rent-charge to be substituted for tithes ; and instead of
having the amount recovered at once from the tithe-payer,
he thought it would be better to give the Commissioners a
large discretionary power in order that anything like injus-
tice might be avoided. With respect to the Noble Lord's
plan of appeal against the decision of the valuers, he must
say that it would, in his opinion, be literally worthless, be-
cause it. was anything but likely that they would change the
opinion which they had previously formed. He also disap-
proved of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Bomerset, giving the appeal to the Quarter
Sessions instead of the Commissioners, and he thought that
the best and safest course that could be punned would be
to constitute an open Board for the purpose of settling all
disputes respecting the value of tithes. Now, he proposed
that such a Board should consist of a certain number of '
Assistant Commissioners, barristers of. a particular standing
at the bar, and practical men, conversant with the subject of
tithes, and that the Board so constituted should go from
place to place in order to adjust all differences that might
exist in reference to the value of tithes. When this tribu-
nal had heard and decided on the matters in dispute they were
to report to the Commissioners, and the Commissioners were
to be empowered to enforce the decisions of the Board in
all cases, but subject, of course, to certain restric-
tions and limitations. As a check, however, on the pro-
ceedings of the Commissioners, he proposed that they
should have power to raise or diminish the amount of the
tithe to a given extent only, and, as further protection to
the tithe-payer and tithe-receiver, he would :wpose upon
the Commissioners the necessity of stating in the Schedule
to be annexed to the final award, the reasons which had in-
duced them to alter the determination of the Board of Va-
luers. He hoped the Noble Lord would consider the pro-
priety of making some alteration in his plan, so far as re-
lated to the appeal, and although the suggestion which he
had thrown out might be objected to on the ground of ex-
pense, he was satisfied it would not occasion more expense
than that now proposed for adoption. There were very er-
roneous notions entertained throughout the country with
respect to the Noble Lord's Bill, and he believed the great
reason why people generally were favourable to it was, be-
cause they supposed that the one-fourth which was to be
taken from the tithe-owner was to be given to the tithe-
payer. Now this was a great mistake, and the sooner the
public mind was set right on the subject the better. Al-
though he was by no means in favour of compulsion, if it
could be avoided, yet he still feared that no arrangement
could be come to without it.—(Hear, hear.) He was
aware that an opinion prevailed out of doors that it would
be better to have no Bill at all than to pass this measure
in its present shape ; but, for his part, he had arrived at
the conclusion that some Bill must be passed, in order to
relieve the country from the further agitation of the tithe
question.—(Hear, bear, and cries of " Withdraw, with-
draw," and " Divide.")
Mr. E. BULLER, although unconvinced that reduction
of 251. per cent. in the one case, and 40/. in the other,
were erroneous, would not, as he saw the Committee were
indisposed to divide, persist in his amendment.—(Hear.)
The amendment was consequently withdrawn, and a fresh
one proposed by another Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. C. BULLER said that, unless the Noble Lord
made some arrangement as to the way in which amend-
ments were to be proposed, he should feel it his duty to
move the omission of all the words in the clause after the
word " That," as it would seem that it was equally ob-
jectionable to both sides of the House.

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that after the
amendments proposed to be made in the clause had been
disposed of, the Hon. Gentleman might propose the omission
of the clause if he deemed that course expedient, but he
could not do so until the amendments had first been decided
upon by the Committee.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARROT was understood to propose a verbal
amendment, to the effect that the gross value of tithes
should be calculated according to the average value of all
descriptions of tithes taken during the last seven years.
After a few words from Sir R. PRICE, the SOLICITOR-
GENERAL, and Sir R. INGLIS, which were inaudible in the
Gallery,
Mr. GOUL BURN wished to know from the Noble
Lord opposite upon what principle it was that he had fixed
601. or 75/. as the maximum and minimum to be paid to the
titheowner in lieu of his tithes ; for he (Mr. Goulburn)
could not understand why these sums more than any other
amounts should have been taken by the Noble Lord ? The
more he heard upon the subject the more he was convinced
that any compulsory system they might adopt must produce
in individual cases the grossest injustice.
Sir OHN WROTTESLEY considered that the pro-
portions which had been fixed by his Noble Friend were
just and fair ones, under all the circumstances.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman
asked him to explain the principle on which the reductions
which he proposed to make in the gross value of tithes
proceeded, and all be could do now was to repeat that which
he had so frequently stated. He thought it would be un-
fair in making a commutation of tithes to take individual
cases ; and, therefore, what he had done was to form his
limits by reference to a general average. If he had taken
761. per cent. as a general average thoughout the country
he did not think he would have fairly represented the
value of tithes, and therefore it was that he had thought
it advis ►ble to fix two sums—a higher and a lower sum

—as comprehending most accurately that which was the
real value of tithes in the great proportion of cases.
This had become necessary owing to the differecc3 that
existed with regard to collection, and a great variety of
other customs connected with tithes. His Hon. Friend
the Member for Somerset had shewn the reason why the

. -
higher limit, namely, the reduction of 2.5/., had been
adoptel ; and from all the information he had received re-
specting. the expense of collection, he was still of the opi-
rron that this deduction in the cases in which it was meant
to apply was a perfectly fair one. The difference between
seventy-five pounds and sixty pounds arose from arrange-
ments which had ken made between the tithe-receiver
and the tithe-payer, and which it was not thought expe-
dient to disturb ; but still there were a great number of
instances in which the costs of collection and other charges
incident thereto Aid actually amount to 401. In such cases,
then. he thought that givin.. 601. out of every 1001. was a
just arrangement; but at the same time he was bound to
state that his doubt .originally had been whether the limits
should not have been 501. and 80/. instead of those now
proposal. The only reason why he had not named these
sums w-s, because he thought that, under all the circum-
stances, a difference of 1.51. would be more satisfactory
than any larger amount, and if the nature of tithes and

►e necessity for adopting a course which would not, after
►c lapse of five or six years, give rise to discontent, were
►irly considered, he was convinced that, it would be found
he proportions which he had selected were the right ones.
Mr. MILES then moved the following atneadment—

•.
namely, to substitute the word "fifty " for " sixty," and
the omission of all the words in the fifteenth line of the
same clause, after the word "limit," and the insertion of

the following proviso, that when the average sum paid, or
a2reed to be paid, shall be more than 5017, and less than
75'., for every 100/. of such average gross value of the
tithes taken in kind, the said commissioner or assistant-
commi,sioners arc empowered, due regard being paid to
the peculiar nature or the tithe in individual parishes, to
award such fair and equitable suet for the permanent
commutation thereof as upon such inquiry they shall
k:.eem expedient.
After a few observations. from Sir R. Price and Mr.
C. BULLER,
Lord EBRINGTON was understood to support the
amendment.
Lord HOWICK thought it unnecessary. The necessity
of passing some law on this subject was so urgent that
,he
hoped objections and amendments to the measure before the
House would not be pushed to extremities.
After a few words from Mr. Childers, Col. Thompson,
Mr. Hume, Mr. Bennett, Mr. Parrott, and Mr. E. Buller,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause...... q 5
Against it - 71
Majority .. -")4
The House then resumed.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of,
and tl.;e house adjourned at half-past 12.

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