The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-19 00:00:00

far the contiguity of the United States with that colony
may have operated on the policy which has been adopted
'5l the Imperial Government. But this he would say.
that it would be an act of justice and expediency that
mercy should be extended to the men involved in the
Pteafint measure. Not until the last moment, and when
army hope of redress seemed to be at an end, did Mr.
O'Brien determine upon a course of conduct which had
led to so unfortunate a result. Notwithstanding all that
had been said upon the subject, he was firmly of opinion
that but for the passing of the Bill suspending the
Ilabeas Corpus Act in Ireland, and which compelled
Mr. O'Brien and others to take measures to avoid being
arrested he believed that but for the passing of that
measure no outbreak whatever would have occurred.
The Hon. Member declared himself opposed to the pro-

Posed Bill.
Mr. GODSON said that by the common law the
Queen had the power of inflicting the punishment of fine
and imprisonment in lieu of the extreme penalty which
*as attached to the offence of high treason. If that
Punishment had therefore been inflicted, the present
Bill would never have been heard of, and it was alto-
gether unnecessary. The effect of the present Bill
Would be to increase the punishment. Tire lion. and
Learned Member then referred to the Act of the 12th
George I , and proceeded to contend that under the
,common law the punishment of transportation was un-
known, and that not till the time of Elizabeth had that
Punishment been inflicted. The Crown having the
Power of enforcing the punishment of fine and impri-
sonment, the Hon. and Learned Member said he was
of opinion that had the attention of the law officers of
the Crown been drawn to that subject, the House
Would never have heard anything of the present
iiill.—(Hear.)
Mr. MONSELL said it would be admitted by every
gentleman who had spoken, that the sentence of death
could not be carried into effect—of that every gentleman
Was convinced.—(Hear.) The Government, it appeared,
mid the power of imprisoning for life, and the practical
effect of the Bill was to enable the Government to in-
'areas° the punishment to transportation. Under these
s,c,ironmstances he could not but look upon the proposed
mill as an instance of ex post facto legislation. He would,
therefore, submit to the Government, considering the
climber of parties who had come forward soliciting. the
extension of mercy to the prisoners, that the best inte-
rests of the country would be consulted by pursuing the
More merciful course, and that the present Bill should
not therefore be persevered in.
Mr. REYNOLDS said it seemed to be the opinion of
the lawyers who had spoken in the debate, that
there was no necessity for the Bill. It no doubt
existed as to the law, why, he would ask, had the
Bill been introduced ? Her Majesty, and her Ma-
jesty's advisers had determined that the sentence
of death should not be carried into effect; but he did
not agree with the Honourable Member for Reading,
that therefore the people of Ireland should be grateful
for the act of mercy contemplated in the present Bill.
tte would remind the House that one hundred and fifty
thousand persons in Ireland had signed the petition in
favour of the extension of mercy to the State prisoners.
That petition had been signed by the nobility and gen-
try, and by the clergy of all denominations, and such a
Petition was ono which should not be without its effect
upon the Government.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that,
strictly speaking, tho late event in Ireland could be
called a rebellion. He had, however, listened to a de-
bate in that House, a few nights ago, with reference
to what was really a rebellion in Canada, when life and
Property suffered to a very considerable extent, and
Where a reward of 5001. had been offered for the appre.
pension of a gentleman named Lafontaine, who was now
Attorney-General of that colony.—(Hear, hear.) Had
there really been a rebellion in Ireland on the late occa-
sion, it was not a force of 40,000 men, nor four times that
cumber, could have put down the determination of the
People of Ireland. He denied that there was any rebellion
ila Ireland; and, so far as the measure now before the
house was concerned, he did not think it was at all re-
quired. The law officers of the Crown seemed to be at
doubt upon the subject. The order fur the transporta-
tion of those gentlemen was regularly sent to Dublin,
and on the 9th of June a posse of police and military
Were assembled around the gaol where these gentlemen
were confined; but suddenly another order arrived, and
tthey were at once dispersed, and the prisoners were sent
back to their cells. That showed that the Government
had not their minds made up on the subject. There
were certainly great hardships perpetrated on those pri-
'loners; not so much upon them as upon their families.
There was his friend Mr. Smith O'Brien, who had a wife
and seven children, the oldest only nine years of age,
and how were they to be provided for? But, besides, the
Bill bad been introduced the other morning, when it was
read a first time at half-past one o'clock.
Sir GEORGE GREY—It was no such thing. It was
brought down by a messenger from the House of Lords
before
Six o'clock in the afternoon, and presented to the
house.
Mr. REYNOLDS—It might have been that, but it
Was not read a first time until the hour he had mentionec,
and at the time it was so, there were only 27 Members
111 the House. He was not aware that it was coming on
for a first reading on that evening, otherwise he would
have at once moved its rejection.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, ,be could not give a silent
vote on so important a question. If he had consulted
l'is, own feelings, he would not have said a word on the
subject, for during many years he had had the pleasure
of the intimate acquaintance of Mr. Smith O'Brien, as
Well as those of his nearest and dearest relatives.—
flear, hear.) At the same time, however, and in coming
to that opinion he was ectuated not a little by the speech
he had just heard—(heer, hear)—that he could not
bringliS tfotrhwe
a redo any
t
argumentot
that Hon.which G would in the least
hear.) lie felt bound to say that he thought it would
have been well had Mr. O'Brien thought more of his
wife and family than he appeared to have done. The
question so far as he could understand it was one of
law, He had had the honour for many years of being
the adviser of her Majesty in regard to this, the
mightiest, the noblest, and the most exalted attribute
which appertained to the Crown—he meant the attri-
bute of mercy. There was that about that attribute of
the royal will which could not be strained, for in re-
spect of mercy the royal prerogative could not be too
much extended ; but in respect to the measure now
before the House, it was, in his opinion, simply a means
of carrying out the mild and merciful intentions
of the Government. Without any such measures as
the present, there was, in his opinion, grourds suffi-
cient for commuting the sentence of these men, as had
been done, as the Act of George the First, chap. 12,
explicitly stated what was rebellion was felony. That
statute was, in his opinion, quite distinct on the sub.
jeat, and hile he did not deem another measure ne-
cessary, he would not hesitate supporting the present
Bill. Ho thought the Government had shown a wise
discretion in commuting the capital sentence which had
been passed on these men, and he considered that in
the circumstances the present measure was required.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he should vote for the second
raiding of the Bill. There could not be a doubt as to
the propriety of the Bill itself ; for although he con-
sidered that the law, as it at present existed, was suffi •
Cent to meet the case, he thought the enactment of the
present measure would show the lenient manner in which
Every
Government wished to deal with those gentlemen.
'r4eery one knew that the crime of treason was a felony
--That those convicted of treason were liable to be pu-
nished on that crime, provided the capital punishment
of treason was not carried out. The question then was,
dld treason amount t 3 a felony? And on that subject
he could not do better than refer to Blackstone, who
stated that the one crime included the other. There was,
tien, no doubt, about the law ; but then it was
stid that the law proposed to be introduced was a retro-
spective law. That, however, was no argument. The
live at present in existence was sufficieet to carry out
the sentence of the Government, and it was only as a
Means of showing the leniency of the Government that
such a measure was introduced. He had, however,
heard it said that the punishment they had been sub-
jected to, transportation for life, was severer than the
Punishment of death.—(Hear.) He considered the
grounds on which these men were advocating their case
Was a perfect quibble, and he did not hesitate to say
that he would have them hung to-morrow rather than
anew them to got off on such a miserable quibble ss
they were now putting forward.—(Cries of " Ob, oh I"
and " Hear, hear.") He was as much opposed to the
punishment of death being carried out as any man; but
he would never be a party to prevent its being put into
execution in a case where the law and the circumstances
of the case demanded it.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the county of
Meath (Mr. Grattan) that night say that Smith O'Brien's
Proceeding was a ridiculous attempt at rebellion, and if he
had not made that false move other gentlemen would
have been found ready to join in the same cause, and
that he himseif would have been amongst the number.
Mr. GRATTAN—I said no such thing.—(Hear.)
IMr. ROEBUCK—Perhaps what the Hon. Gentleman
Says does not remain long on his own memory ; but he
did not think that his remarks on that subject would
have so soon been lost sight of by those lion. Gentlemen
who'heard them. It so happened that what the Hon.
Gentleman said had remained on his memory, and in the
recollection of that he said that the Hon. Gentleman had
"aid that the rebellion of Mr. Smith O'Brien was a ridi-
"Anus project, and that if it had not been made a more
rational movement would have taken place.
Mr. GRATTAN---I deny that I used any such words,
and if allowed an explanation, I will state what I did say.
The SPEAKER—The statement of the Hon. Gentle-
Man having been called in question he is at liberty to
explain what he did state.
r, GRATTAN—What I did say was, that I con-
ceived Mr. Smith O'Brien had vulgarised sedition. I
think that was the term I used, and that, in con-
sequence, it was not likely that any one would follow his
example.
Mr. ROEBUCK—WeII, take it on the Hon. Gentle-
man's own words. He said that Mr. Smith O'Brien had
so 'vulgarised sedition that Hon. Gentlemen opposite
would not be anxious to follow his example; but that
was no reason why such a measure as the present should
not be passod, in order to meet such a case. The mea-
sure was simply an exemplification of the humanity of
the people of England in regard to those men. It was
doing away with the higher sentence of the law,'ene
substituting in its place that milder punishment of trans-
portation, which even the law as it at present existed
warranted the Government in carrying out. Ho was
totslly at a loss to know how the Honourable Member
for Meath (Mr. Grattan) would oppose this Bill, as being
one of mercy and favour. lie requests of the House,
for the sake of those convicted men to allow the Bill to
be read a second time, for he considered that this Bill
was worthy of the consideration, not only of England,
but of the whole world, as being an act of mercy. lie
was certainly opposed to capital punishment, but yet, as
long as the law to that effect existed, he considered
that it should be carried out, under present circum-
stances, and he asserted that it was not a retrospective
Act, as had been stated by those who called it an cx
post facto Bill.
Mr. CiODWIN rote to explain the different* between