The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-19 00:00:00

MUSEUM.

Sir R. PEEL said, as the end of the Session was approach-
ing-, there could be no objection to his moving at once for a
Select Committee to inquire into the plans and estimates for
the completion of the British Museum.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the motion.
Mr. HUME had an objection to the motion.---( Laughter.)
He objected to it on public grounds, as the proper notice had
not been given.
Sir R. PEEL said he was in hopes that, when a motion
was unopposed, there would be no objection to its being
brought forward at once.
Mr. HUME said it was a mere form, and had not been de-
viated from on any occasion.
Mr. HARVEY said he had anothe'r objection to it.
Sir R. PEEL would withdraw it.
Mr. HARVEY believed the name of the Right Honourable
Baronet had been put on the paper within the last five minutes,
whereas his (Mr. llarvey's) had been there for the last hour
and-a-half; and though lie was at all times pleased to give
way to the Hon. Baronet—
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member's name was on the
list of public petitions, but not oil the list of notices of motions.
These were two distinct things, and lie apprehended the Ilon..
Member was labouring under a mistake.
Mr. HA RVE Y admitted that he was, but hoped, when the
House had disposed of this motion, he might be allowed to
give notice of a matter of public importance.
Sir IL PEEL would give notice of his motion fur to-
morrow.

divis on.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did net
see any objection to the motion being entertained at present.
—The motion was then agreed to.
POOR-LAW UNIONS.
Mr. HARVEY said that to-morrow, on the presenting of
the petition from the parish of St. Saviour's on file subject of
the Poor-laws, he would call the attention of the House to a
statement which appeared in the Times of Saturday last, set-
ting forth a most extraordinary administration of thc Poor-
laws in one of the Poor-law Unions.
The SPEAKER said the usual course when any subject
was to come under discussion, was that the petition should be
first presented, and printed with the votes, and then that
notice should be given of the time for taking the discussion.
Mr. II A RVE Y was not about to present the petition now,
but he merely thought it correct togivo notice of his intention.
If it were necessary that the petition should be printed with
the votes, he had no objection to that course.
The SPEAKER explained that what he wished to call
the Hon. Member's attention to was, that where a statement
appeared in the papers, affecting any particular Member,
it was by no means unusual or inconvenient to bring it
under the notice of the House at the earliest moment. In all
other ca!es the proceeding was as he (the Speaker) had stated.
Mr. II A RVE Y then gave notice that he should bring the
subject before the House to-morrow.

SUGAR DUTIES.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Right Honourable the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, when it was his intention to go
into Committee on the Sugar Duties' Bill, as it was his (Mr.
Humes) intention to propose the motion of which he had
given notice, and which he wished the House to have the
fullest notice on the subject?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was his desire to give all parties the fullest notice, and, in the
course of to-morrow, he would be able to ascertain how far
distant the period would be when he would propose the Com-
mittee on the Sugar Duties Bill.
Mr. HUME wished to know when it was the intention of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to redeem the pledge he had
given, to lay before the House an account of the revenues of
the Duchies of Co-nwall and Lancaster ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the papers were now in preparation.
IRISH TITHES.

On the motion of Lerd .IOIIN-11USSELL the Irish
Tithe Bill was postponed to Friday. The Noble Lord gave
notice that on that occasion he should move its consideration
before the other Orders of the Day.
MAILS CONVEYANCE BILL.
Sir J. G RA II A M trusted that his Right lion. Friend oppo-
site would not press o❑ the second reading of the Mail Convey-
ances Bill to-night.
Air. L ABOUCHERE said it was not his intention to
press on the second reading, as he was desirous that its provi-
sions should he well considered.
Mr. E A STIIO PE said it would create much alarm
throughout the country if the second reading of the Bill were
pressed on with such haste. -
PLURALITIES AND BENEFICES BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third reading of this
IV!, which was agreed to. The Noble Lord then brought
up a clause giving a power to the Archbishop of Canter-
bury to grant dispensations, or the power of a veto in all cases
of pluralitirs, which was agreed to.
Sir. IL INGLIS then moved the introduction of a clause
granting compensation to the officers of dispensation of Fa-
culties Office i❑ Chancery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the House had no pov,cr to introduce such a clause.
• After a few remarks from Sir R. luKlia, Lord Joint Russell,

Mr. O'Connell, and the (Thancellor •of the Exchequer, the
clause was negatived without a division.
Dr. NICHOL then rose to propose the clause of which he
had given notice.
Lord J. RUSSELL, as we underst)od, slid he had no
objection to the clause.
• . The clause was then agreed to. •
Col. SIDTHORY moved a clause for the puruoe rf
enabling the widows of incumbents to reside at the glebe-
house three weeks after the death of their husbands.—
Agreed to.
Lord DUNGANNON moved a clause for the purpose of
conferring upon rural Deans the name privileges as were
conferred by the Bill on Archdeacons when performing the
duties of Archdeacons.—The clause was agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed verbal amendments in
several of the clauses, which were agreed to.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose to propose an amendment to
clause 30, the exemption clause, that in addition to those al-
ready exempted by the Bill should be added the Master of
the Temple, and the Preachers of Lincoln's Inn, Gray's Inn,
and the Rolls.

Lord J. RUSSELL regretted to sec so many exemptions
in the 13111, and such being his feeling., he could not accede to
the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet. _ _ _ -

The amendment was ultimately nizatived without a

On clause 35 being read,
Mr. ERE SII FIE L D proposed an amendment, " to enable
Bishops to grant licenses for non-residence in cases of dan-
gerous illness of the wife or child of any spiritual person."
Lord J. RUSSELL said that such license was granted by
the 313th clause. He had an objection to agree to any such
case as the Hon. Member proposed; but he did not see that
the amendment was at all required.
After a few words from Viscount DUNGANNON, the
Douse divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 42
Against it 72
Majority —3o
_ _

Dr. NICHOLL moved a clause saving the existing- rights
of parishioners in the caw of sudden emergencies arising to
theClergynm.—Agreed to.

Colonel siwrilo RP brought up the following clause :
" To give to the widows of the late incumbent the occupation
of the house, castelage, and garden, for a period not exceeding
two months at his decease."—Agreed to. •
Viscount DUNGANNON moved the insertion of a clause
assigning to rural Deans doing the duty of Archdeacons in
certain dioceses, the same-privileges relative to the holding of
preferment as those accorded by the second clause to Arch-
deacons.—Agreed to.
Mr. FR E SHFIE L D moved as an amendment in the 42d
clause—" That in all cases of licences fur non-residence, ex.
cept those requiring to be approved by an Archbishop, a copy
of the evidence received by the Bishop shall too filed in the
Registry of the diocese, with a copy of the licence."
Agreed to.
Mr. II UM E proposed tlytt after the 18th question in the
schedule to residents the question should be inserted, " Wlist
is the gross annual value of your benefice ?"
Lord J. RUSSELL objected to the proposition, and after
a short conversation the question was negatived.
Mr. HUME hoped the time would come when all they had
done by this Bill would be reprobated and undone, as it was
decidedly injurious to the true interests of the Church.
Viscount DUNGANNON declared his satisfaction that
" the true interests of the Church" were confided to the care
of the Bishops and the Noble Lord, rather than to the hands
of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny.
The Bill was then passed.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. O'CONNELL had several clauses to propose to define
and distinguish taxes from rents in payment to the Municipal
Corporations.
A desultory conversation arose respecting the proper time
and place for their consideration, in the course of which the
Speaker complained of the irregularities in which Hon. Mem-
bers habitually indulged in their mode of bringing in clauses.
The Bill was then re-committed, read a first and second
time, and clauses from 1 to 5 passed.
On clause 6 being proposed,
Mr. O'CONNELL proposed that the words of the Scotch
clause " shall be of the yearly value of 101. sterling," instead
of the present words " shall be rated by amount of poor-rate."
-He proposed, in short, to give the Scotch Bill to Ireland, with
its mode of rating, power of appeal, and all its advantages and
disadvantages.
Mr. L A SCE LLES wishing to bring those questions to an
amicable conclusion, gave a vote the other night which would
appear to be in opposition to those with whom he generally
acted, but which in reality was not so. He voted with her
Majesty's Government because he thought there was no real
difference between both sides of the House. All that was
asked on both sides was a 10/. franchise, and the only question
was how the value of that franchise was to be ascertained.
Now it was admitted on his side of the House that the 101.
franchise in Ireland would be an increase of the franchise in
Ireland, and he, therefore, thought that there might yet be
found means of settling this question, and not holding it up to
the country as a subject of discord.
Mr. O'CONNELL repeated that all he wanted was the
Scotch franchise, which had no reference to satins, at all. All
he wanted was not to give a lot franchise to Ireland in name,
and a 201. franchise in reality.
Mr. W. ROCHE supported the amendment.
Mr. MILES was disposed to take a conciliatory view of
this subject, and would most cordially join in any arrangement
that could lead to a satisfactory settlement of the question.
Mr. PUSEY hoped Parliament would not separate with
out coming to some satisfactory settlement of this question, in
conjunction with the other two great questions which involved
the peace of Ireland, so as to satisfy the just expectations of
the people of that country.
Lord ELIOT hoped this question would b.; brought to a
satisfactory settlement. There could be no doubt that there
was a great difference between a 101. house in England and a
101. house in Ireland, and he did not think it was fair towards
Ireland to take the same high valuation as in England. It
would be exacting too much from Ireland to take a 101. fran-
chise according to. the rating, because it was certain that a 101.
rating was more than a 101. real value. He thought this a
proper occasion to state why it was he differed upon the sub-
ject from some of his friends on his side of the House.
Mr. SLANE Y said that there did not remain a doubt that
a 10/. rating was greater than a 101.'annual value. It amounted
to a value of at least 12/. 10s.—( Hear.) Ireland was a poorer
country than either England or Scotland, and yet Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite se ished to give her a higher franchise.
Mr. LUCAS was disposed to uphold the principle which
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had laid
down upon this subject—( Hear)—namely, that the qualifica-
tion for Ireland should be the same as that laid down by law
as the qualification for England and Scotland.—( Hear, hear.)
It was, however, very difficult to know at present what really
constituted a 101. franchise in Ireland, and he was ready,
agreeably with die sentiments which had been expressed by
his Hon. Friend the Member for Sornersetshire, that night, if
it could be shown that this new phraseology, as it was termed,
would raise the franchise in Ireland, to meet the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite fairly on the subject.
Mr. D. ROCHE concurred in the opinions which many of
the Gentlemen opposite had so much to their honour come for-
ward and stated on the present occasion.
Sir G. CLERK firmly believed that there was no wish
eithes on the part of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peal) er
of those who voted with him on a former occasion to raise the
franchise in Ireland.—( Hear.) All they asked was, a clear
and bone fide value of 10/.

Mr. (YCONINE I, L said the valuation under the Poor-law
would be a value font year to year. The Irish people, he
must remind the Right [lon. Baronet opposite, would not be
inclined to receive a mere intimation that a 101. rating should
not be more than a 101. value, when they knew that in ruality
it was so..—( Hear.) Give them the Scotch plan, and thoy
would be quite content. This question would not only be
an additional insult to Ireland, but an additional cause of
irritation.

Mr. INGHAM thought that it was the duty of the Legis-
lature to conciliate the middle crises of Ireland, and that
there were few things more desirable, in attempting to effect,
that object, than to give them municipal institutions.—( Hear.)
Mr. LITTON considered that every Irish Member must
deeply regret the degradation which Ireland bad suffered from
the enormous mass of perjury with reference to the qualifica-
tion for voting, which had been brought to light before the
Committee appointed by that House on the subject of fictitious
votes—( Hear) —and that no man could read the evidence
taken before that Committee, and any longer wish to see the
franchise conferred on voters in Ireland on their own swearing
as to the value of their property.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL must protest again.t the statement of
the lion, and Learned Member for Coleraine with respect to
the evidence taken befcrc the Fictitious Votes Committee.
The statement was not entitled to the slightest credence ; and
when the Hon. and Learned Member stated that gross per-
jury had been committed by the witnesses examined before
that Committee, he had cast an imputation on those persons
which was utterly unfounded.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Mr. LITTON called upon lion. Members to look into
that evidence, and then determine the question between hint
and the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, as to which
of them was entitled to credence.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, after what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Stamford lie thought it
right to call the attention of the Committee to what had
tacen place with regardlto the clause. The first proposal made
to them was that they should not begin at a lower value than
101. The Right lion. Baronet tile Member for Tamworth had
give a bona fide value of 10!.,
said that alit. rating would not
but they, on the other hand, had contended that it would give
more than that amount, and what' took place the other night
was conclusive as to the point. There were two ways of
ascertaining the question of value--one was, afforded by the
rating clause in the Poor-law Bill, and the other in the man-
ner in which this clause was drawn up with respect to repairs
and insurance. Before, however, they adopted the. proposition
of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Stamford there
was a difficulty to be got over, and that related to the dif-
ference of rating as applicable to home and other property.
Something must be done to make up this difference; but still
he was`not PrePared to say v.bether it would he necessary to
have the choice as it stood, or to take.the 61. rating given by
the Poor-law Bill to prevent injurious consequences to any
party. He hoped that no alteration would be made in the
Poor-law Bill in another place which would affect this ques-
tion, because he thought it would be an act of gross in-Toney,
nosy that they had affirmed tl:c principle that Ireland should
have elective municipal corporations, to require that the fran-
chise should he higher or more stringent in that country than
in either England or. Scotiand.-.--(Hear, bear.)
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said, with reference to what had
been said by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for
all be could say rear that if any Hon.
,Member
i teoijukli.'la:neaed' over the eyidence taken before the Fictitious Vote.'

Committee they would be convinced of the neccssi, ey of adopt-
ing a starelerd of value which was extrinsic of the s• searing ef
any party.—( Hear. )
Mr. P. SCROPE said that, as they seemed all
agreed as
to the a:nount of the qualification, the only question was how
the value could be Lest ascertained. The Hon. Gentleman
thought that if a party paid rest and taxes to the amount of
10/. that would give the value in the surest possible way ;
and, as the fact of such payments could be Ascertained from
the rate-books of the preceding- Year, it would relieve the
question from all difficulty—only making the necessary deduc-
tion fur repairs and insurance, which in this country was cal-
culated at 25 per cent.
Mr. DARBY did not think this would be a fair mode of
deciding the question of value.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that, in Eng,land, the franchise
dapruded, not on value, but on rent, and the reason why
au
proposed 10/f value to 5/. rating was because it would exi e
the franchise.
After some further observations from Mr. Darby, Mr.
O'Connell, and Mr. Lucas, the amendment was negati,cd''-
without a division.
On the clause which provides that every person registered
shall attend annually to prove his right to continue on 010
register,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the omission of the proviso and
the substitution of words to the effect that the name of any'
person appearing on the burgess roll of the preceding yeer be
taken as prima facie evidence of his right to be enrolled for
the current year.
Mr. WOULFE said that no inconvenience could arise front
the clause as it stood. A similar provision was contained in
the English Act.
After a few words from Mr. HUME in support of the
amendment, it was negatived without a division.
On clause 156,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the substitution of the following.
clause :—" And whereas it is expedient that this Act should
come into operation during the present year, and it may 11,(.4
be found possible to proceed to a valuation and rating in tee
manor prescribed in an Act of the present Session, intituled
An Act for the more effectual Relief of the destitute Poor in
Ireland,' within such Cme as to permit the municipal elections
to be held during the present year ; be it therefore enacted
that the Poor-law Commissioners shall without delay appoint
such number of persons as they shall think necessary to mak°
a valuation of the hereditaments rateable under the said re-
cited Act, in manner conformable to the provisions contained
therein, in each of the boroughs named in schedules A and 13e
so that such valuation shall be completed on or before th
first of September in the present year; and the premises so
valued shall be held to be rateable for the purposes of thh;
Act, in so far as rating shall have been hereinbefore required
for the purpose of ascertaining the franchise, and for other
purposes relating to municipal elections to be held under tins
Act. Provided always, that such valuation made by the
persons so provisionally appointed as aforesaid shall continuo
in force until a valuation shall have been made by valuatoris
appointed in the manner directed by the said recited Act, and
no longer."
Lord MO R PETH opposed the amendment.
After a short conversation,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN stated that he could not withdraw' the
amendment, which was negatived without a division.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he would move the
of certain clauses on the third reading of the Bill- ,
The House then resumed, and the report was received. To
Bill and amendments were ordered to he engrossed, and the
third reading was fixed for Monday next.
SLAVE VESSELS CAPTURED BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill.
On clause 4, which provides that bounties shall be paid °tit
of the Consolidated Fund,
Capt. PECHELL moved an amendment to the effect that
all fees and deductions from the amount of bounties should he
done away with, and that the money so awarded should be
paid undiminished to the officers and men who were entitled t°
receive it. .d the
The CHANCELLOR of tee EXCHEQUER sa;
Bill proposed to pay a certain bounty to the officers itt'"A„i'e
men of her Majesty's ships, without arty fee or deduction•
was simply its intention. The Hon. and Gallant Mard
should know that a considerable sum had already beet' PA been
the account of slave bounties. In 1831, 81,000/. ba-, bad
paid; in 1832, 25,000/. ; and in all a sum of 306, Gallant
been paid for slave captures. The Honourable and Gatiall'iy,
Member, be trusted, would see that his motion was tota
unnecessary.
After a few weeds from Mr. HUME, the amendment nas
withdrawn.
The Bill then went through Committee, and TuesdaY this
day) was fixed for bringing up the report.
SUGAR DUTIES BILL. mod-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in,me
ing the second reading of this Bill, proposed to fix the `l°,l to
mittee nominally for to-morrow, but that he then intendeoe
postpone it to a future day, and hoped in the meantime t P.c
able to inform the public of the time he intended the ne`
bounties to commence.
The Bill was then read a second time.
PARLIAMENTARY BURGHS (SCOTLAND) Dirte
Mr. FOX .MULE moved the second reading of this
Sir G. CLERK, in presenting a petition from Durnbartits
against this Bill, expressed a wish to be informed fully of
nature and provision ?
Mr. FOX MAULE said that the object of the present 13dt
was to give such burghs as were not possessed of propertY,
power to levy a borough rate ; it also fixed the qualification 01
magistrates at four years' residence, or twelve months for pur-
poses of trade. It was also his intention to propose the re-
duction of the electoral qualification in two small burghs,
Cronnarty and another, from 10/. to 5/.
Sir G. CLERK said that no burghs had petitioned in favour
of the Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Royal Burghs
Bill, which was the next upon the paper, would not be pro-
ceeded with.
The LORD ADVOCATE should support the secella
reading.
Mr. COL QUHOUN objected to the Bill.
Mr. R. STE CART said, in his opinion it would be betteoir
to reserve objections to the details of the Bill when it shoo
,
be brought before the Committee, than to introduce them a'
this stage of the Bill.
Sir W. RAE thought that this Bill and the Royal
Burg i-
Bill involved two great principles, and upon these two pro..c
ples he would oppose it. In the first place it altered the a...
lification, and reduced to .51. the franchise which was now 1v.t
and which had up to this time been approved of in Scotian i
There was another objection which he had to this Bill.
proposed to remove the power of voting which was POsses-,,-0
by persons having 101. qualification, and residing within scs
statute miles.
The House then divided, when there appeared 50
For the amendment •
Against it .. n -
Majority in favour of the Bill ••
The Bill was then read a second time.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) Bloc 11)0
Upon thc Order of the Day, for the second reading 0'
Bill having been read, Ile
Sir R. BATE SON rose to express his dissent from Tite•iited
was opposed to its renewal. It had been applied in I.rmane
with anything but good effect. It had been applied in
nor which, in his opinion, the Legislature never conternLon,
He would give them an instance of this in the city therosing
decry. It had long been the custom to celebrate ce aro'
of the gates in 1668 by the apprentice boys of DHc
not
nical cheers from the Ministerial Benches. ) I%aAllej
aware what those cheers could mean. If those wilt' titu-
themselves Whigs, and pretended a devotion to the Con` that
tion, would only read the history of the period to whiefsi 1,0)4.
celebration referred, they would find that the apprc
of Derry deserved their support and approbation ; that is, Pre,
vided they were really as fond of the Constitution as theY,P.,.at
tended.---( Hear.) In December last, upon the occasion 0! .hat
annual celebration, the city of Londonderry was invested head,
armed force, with a Stipendiary Magistrate at it :red
although the slightest breach of the peace had not oeetll;ose
either previously der subsequently to the arrival of tftltL
armed men, and they would he enabled to form an idea sisg
tranouillity which prevailed in that city and its surroti7 b 0
neighbourhood when he stated that, at the period to whic 01,
alluded there was not a single prisoner in the countysf'f_ees;
pro'
although seven months had elapsed since the previous as 'zoos
whilst in the city gaol the only prisoners consisted of
rs.,,of
' members of one family, who had been confined on a cl 7 rree
stealing poultry. Yet it was into this city such an arnic!lf of
was sent, with 'a
stipendiary Magistrate, in direct violattopin
net
the Charter of Derry, which directed that no one shou., the
as magistrate in that city unless a person who had serve"th of
office of mayor. In the county of Down, upon the
I.l;eoey,
Jul}',, a course of Conduct, with a similar irritating te u_votild
had been adopted. If the Bill should pass he trusted t '
be administered in a spirit of strict impartiality.
c
Bill
to
Lord MORPETH could assure the House that the etcs-
t
would be administered as every law should, with the -
et had
justice to all parties, and he was glad the lion. 1-3a.rrornelf,
atfo-decl them an additional argument in support of Bait
upol
that if it did not pass there would be party process
the 12th of July.
Sir W. BRAIIAZON supported the motion
coud reading.. (seated'
An Hon. MEMBER moved that the House be c
The gallery was accordigl cleared.
On our return, after a few-words from Lord
and Colonel SIBTIIORP,
The House then divided-
-74
For the motion
Against it
'Majority
......
d ordetLa
The Bill was read accordingly a second time, an
be committed. o 111'
for the se-
- The report of the Juvenile! Offeeders Bill being br
by Mr. FOX MAULE, bf
r3tlL
Colonel SIBTHORP objected to the sygem.Pu t a ott,
the Government in surreptitiously introducing Mils 710 e,
hour fur the purpose of smuggling, them through the ~er to
The SPEAKER called the Hon. and Gallant Molu,
order. Such terms had been employed by him as
be used in that liouse.
Sir C. ADAM thought thet the dignity of the
house
quired epoloey from' the Hon. and 'Gallant Niember.
Sir R. BATE SON said that the observations of the,
and Gallant Officer were fully justified, inasmuch as he
'..„
only alluJed to the Government as a body and not to any '"
dtvidual rnembrr of it.
Lord DUNG ANNON said that worse language
was {e-
Lord
used on the other side of the House.
The SPEAKER
sapfeE•wAloErdit; fri-o4jel‘dlr.tiLierrrn
to rest.
It was dropped eccordingly. atlif
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, an
House adjourned at half-past cue o'clock.
"atNtearndwCoUll'd reTial at