The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-07 00:00:00

therefor, that, whilst h 3 tendered the Noble Lon`, his cordial thanks for
all that he had said, I.e felt it relieved him in great measure from the ne-
cessity of entering upon a reply. There were one ov two things cape.
dally which fell from the Noble Duke opposite, for whom he enter-
tained the most unqualified respect, and whose authority, as a practical
statesman, went as far with him (Lord Brougham) as any one's, from
which it appeared that he had been misunderstood by the Noble Duke,
with whom he was accordingly desirous of setting himself right. The
p,rd le Duke was entirely mis!al:en in saying that his (Lord
. .

Brougham's) argument was priacipalty against the Order in Coun-
cil; and lie was now led to express his grew, his tirilmnded ado-
ni,liment at the speech of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Co-
loni:•s. His surprise was extreme at hearing his mode of arguing the
question—as if there was no Madras on the map of Asia, no Bombay,
no Ceylon, or as if there was no Pondicherry, no coast of Africa,
for not one word had been said by him relative to either of them.
Their taking this great law—which did nothing, which aff.:cted to do
little and actually did less, which gave no protection at all—this absurd
and wholly useless law, which was passed by his Noble Relative in
Council, if a Council could be said to exist, this law which had called
f,rth so many panegyrics, as if it operated on all the trade between the
East Indies and Guiana, which was facilitate! and strengthenel by the
Older in Council of the 12th of July, how stood the real facts ? let
the suggcsstion of the Noble Duke be adopted, let his system—he
thought he was rather complimentary in calling it by that name, for he
did not give so much admiration to this
,legislative effort of his as he
had hitherto. and he believed justly, given to every one of his proceed_
ings either as a statesman or a soldier—but supposing this system per-
fect, and supposing his Noble Relative, Lord Auckland, had adopted it
in a way that gave it the same effect as a law, as in the proposal of the
Noble Duke, would it apply to all places ?
The Duke of WELLINGTON—AII are included.
Lord BROUGHAM—Not Pondicherry, for what could be done with

the coast of Africa—all was swept in by the enveloping power o this
Order in Council? The Order could not stand on the vt ry ground on
which it had bet n defended, because the Nobie Lord admitted that it
could never do without the Indian law, and on that ground he (Lord
Brougham) was answered that Pondicherry, and above all the eastern
coast cf Africa, from the Cape to the Red Sea, were included. But was
there anything in the Order of Lord Auckland which could be supposed
to extend to all the settlements on that coast—for even if the wits of men
were extended to the uttermo,t in making a code ofregulatirrns, no means
existed by which Pondicherry or any of the other settlements could be
governed, and neither this House, nor any other legiflative body, had
the means of legislating for the barbarous tribes along the eastern
coast of the continent of Africa, and yet every inch of that coast was
. .

. _
swept by the influence of that Order. To this no answer had been
given ; he had in vain waited for the speech of the Noble Secretary for
any answer. The door had not been closed against the African slave_
trade ; it had been left ajar ; fur he called it leaving it ajar when the
means were afforded by which, by fraud, the trade might be carried on.
A great deal had been said by the Noble Duke with regard to the value
of the West Indian colonies, and of the necessity of keeping up the
traffic, and it was on this point that the Noble Duke had misunderstood
his resolution. He defied him to find in it any opinion expressed en
the system proposed of taking out labour from this country ; and why
did he say so ? because he purposely guarded against asking the House,
so to commit himself. He was not prepared to go along with those out
of doors who by some were called fanatics, and whose opinions were
certainly rather strong on the subject, but, at the same time, all he
would say was, that he differed from them in opinion ; he was an
advocate for supporting colonial establishments to a certain
extent, for he thought that to a certain extent they were highly useful
to commerce, as well as to receive some of the surplus population of the
mother country; but where the colonies had reached that state in which
they could without assistance support themselves in their own position,
as well as from the attacks of foreign powers, when they could walk
alone, then it became quite another question whether they should be
continued as attached to the old country or not. So long as it was the
common interest of both countries that the connection should con-
tinue, so long should the alliance he kept up. But although this
opinion might apply to the continental colonies of Great Britain, such
as those of North America, of Canada, New Brunswick, and New.
foundland, as to the West India islands he had before argued against, or
rather with, his Noble Friend Lord Ashburton, who was not
in his place, that there was a great difference, for the West
Indies stood in a position very different from that of the conti-
nental colonies ; and he was disposed to hold that in a military
sense, with a view to the power of the nation, their possession was a
valuable part of its political force. If it should chance that the negroes
did not fulfil the hopes which this House entertained, and that they
should not fall generally into a state of industrious free labourers from
that of industrious apprentices, he must say that he thought the sugges-
tion of the Noble Duke would have little effect; he thought that there
would be little hope of changing the positions and feelings of a popula-
tion of eight hundred thousand by the proposed introduction of labourers
from other places ; that there would be little chance of creating this i
change by the sprinkling the dust of Asia over the Islands. He did
not choose to see the traffic in human beings encouraged in any
way, even though it should be called the free circulation of labour.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) He had heard political economy used in
many ways. He had heard it employed in favour of State lotteries ;
and he had heard the principle advocated, that every man had the best
right to dispose of that which was his own, and to make the most of his
capital ; and he had even heard it used on the Continent to defend the
system which had been established for the support of the houses of a
certain description ; but he must confess that he had never heard it
brought forward as an argument in favour of such a system as that of
free circulation of labour which was proposed. The system was un-
natural and infinitely liable to abuse. Then, with regard to the ob-
servations of the Noble Duke, and to the suggestions which he had
thrown cut, what did the Noble Duke say ? " Oh ! if you will not adopt
the suggestions which I make I will vote against the motion."
And then what was the answer ? Why, the Noble Viscount
at the head of the Administration at once got up and said,
" Oh, yes, I will take the matter into my consideration."—(Hear,
hear.) He said he would take it into his consideration. No doubt
he would, and so would he (Lord Brougham) ; but although he might
take it into consideration, he might think as little of it as he did.—(A
laugh.) What said the Noble Viscount ? He would take it into his
consideration. Oh, yes! s'avisera—(A laugh)—but the effect of his
compliance seemed to be much more (to use the phrase of a certain
witness on a remarkable occasion) " No, than yes." Wherefore, as
the Noble Duke did not succeed in catching the Noble Viscount, no
more did the Noble Viscount succeed in catching toe Noble Duke.—
(A laugh.) it was said there was a difference between the new traffic
and the old one; that by the former system they were to be brought
into a country of slaves, whereas now they were carried into a country
of freemen. But there was this distinction, that Mr. Barron's
proposition was to bring them free into a country of slaves,
where they were to be free themselves, while the new plan was to
take them into a country of quasi slaves, of indentured appren.
tires, where they themselves were to be indentured apprentices. In
this the superiority of the present plan over Mr. Barron's consisted. But
the Noble Viscount had said that the interests of the parties must be
looked to.—(Hear.) He had always declared it to be his belief, and not in
deference to the Right Rev. Prelates, who had always taken the same
view which he had relating to the Slave-trade from the beginning of the
1 eontroversy, since which time they had not voted for any proposition in
favour of the continuance of the traffic, but it was matter of history, of
civil as v.ell as sacred history, that it was the mild and benignant influ-
ence of the Gewoel of Christ which had tended to put down slavery, in
opposition to all interest of a general or personal nature which might have
existed, and that all the interest in the world would not have availed in
producing such an end,had they lived in the ages of heathenism. He had
always considered the eradication of slavery from the world as among the
greatest blessings which Christianity had conferred on man, and it
was an object which had been attained not only by i s influence, but
directly. But even supposing that this was not so, the continuance of
slavery ought not to depend upon interest ; and it did not. It de-
pended on an Act of Parliament, by which, on the let of August,
1840—and, he hoped, on the Ist of August, 1836—it would be for
ever stopped. Then, what became of the argument ? He would say
that it was absurd to say that interest must be depended upon to show
whether slavery would be revived He said that it would riot revive;
but if he were told that the revival of slavery must depend on such
such a contingency, he was struck with fear ; for when
were men to be depended upon who had cunning crimps to
support their plans, and ven il coadjutors at the Mauritius
and at Monte Video? (where the governor was bribed with
10,0001. to allow 2,000 slaves to be introduced contrary to
the treaty, and be used the same argument, or an argument
clothed in the very same words, with those which had now been used.)
Such men, with such assistants, would be too much for the innocent
People of the Rest, or of the coast of Africa, and therefore the revival
of the Slave-trade was not so remote a possibility as the revival of
slavery in the Neat Indies. But then it was said that if it were re-
vived the country should wait fur some other Wilberforce, or some other
Government different from the present, who should rise up and over-
throw all difficulties, and, notwithstanding all opposition, should by one
act of virtue at once extirpate the Slave-trade. But he answered, if it
so pleased the House, that he had rather that it should not have the
opportunity of reviving ; and that the chance of thus putting it down
after its revival should not be afforded, he would not wait until tee
upas.tree had been firmly planted before he ealled for the hatchet to
cut it down. He begged, in conclusion, to tender his humble and
hearty thanks to the House for the patient attention with which they
had heard the observations which he had to offer, but, at the same time,
he had felt himself bound to enter fully into the subject, conceiving it
to be one of the most important duties which he could have to per.
form —(Hear, hear.)
Lord LYNDHURST proposed to give his vote in favour of the
Noble and Learned Lord's motion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was quite satisfied that when the
Noble Viscount stated that it was his intention to take his suggestion
into consideration, it was his intention to do so with a view to its
being ultimately carried into offect—(Hear, hear]—in a way which
would be satisfactory both to him and the House, and on the principle
which he had recommended. He thought that it would not be advisa-
ble to go to a division on the motion of the Noble and Learned Lord as
it stood, and he should therefore move the previous question.
Lord FITZGERALD was anxious, before the House divided, to know
from the Noble Viscount opposite if he adopted the advice of the Noble
Duke, and intended to art upon it in the spirit in which it had been
given. It would lie extremely painful for him, as well as for seve-
ral Noble Lords near him, nut to vote for the aniendinent of the Noble
Duke ; but unless the Niitile Viscount asserted that he received and
adopted the recommendation of the Noble Duke in the sense in which
it was given, a sense of duty would compel him to vote with the Noble
and Learned Lord. •
Viscount MELBOURNE replied that of course when he adopted the
advice of the Noble Duke he assented entirely to the advice so given.
Ile had already stated on behalf of himself and colleagues that thee
would take the advice of the Nob'e Duke into their serious considera-
tion in a spirit of sincerity, not merely because it was the course of
proceeding recommended by the Noble Duke, but because he believed
that it was the plan, if adhered to and persevered in, the best calcula-
ted to guard against all the evils which had been pointed out to them.
Lord BROUGHAM trusted that he should al,o be excused asking
the Noble Viscount a question. Supposing the Noble Duke's plan to be
adopted, what was there in it to prevent Africans from being removed
from Pondicherry and Goa to the western colonial possessions?
The House then divided—
Contents for the previous question
Non-cuntents l4
Majority
The original motion was then negatived.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to learn from the Noble Viscount, as the
recess was approaching, when he intended to bring forward the measure
which he had promised, and which he had been driven into from appre-
hension of being In a min way; and which he would have been in had
not the Noble Duke come forward to his assistance. When did the
Noble Viscount mean to bring in his Bill, and which had been adopted
at the suggew ion of the Noble Duke opposite ?
Viscount MELBOURNE could not at that moment tell when a mea-
sure on the sulei' et would be proposed ; but it would be brought forward
with as little delay as possible, allowing for the importance of the sub-
ject. However anxious, therefore, he was to suit the convenience of the
Noble and Learned Lord, he could not then give him a positive answer.
Lord BROUGHAM wished to learn from the Noble Viscount whether
it was likely that the Bill would be brought forward in the course of a
week or a fortnight. If this were not done he thought that the Noble
Duke would withdraw his support from the Noble Viscount, and leave
himsoul
).
lh(eeLvouirsduckoßeu Brougham)
wouldgira WELLINGTONiI
eisintroducedrnaj it
y trusted foars h
soon
his
t that arati :tipotreasiß:ibi
possible,
et
,ti i°ranoft.i—neirs( e (Ad laugh.)
4ideration had been given to the subject. —Adjourned till Thursdtuayeb.y"ti:l': 1 .

ERRATUN-f.—ln an article on the conduct of ultra-
Radicals, which appeared in The Sun yesterday, for—" Duke
of Cumberland that seemed more anxious to damage the Re-
form Bill than either Wetherell or Croker," read " Duke of
Cumberland. Hunt seemed," Ace, ; and for—" Mr. Roe-
buck is as good a resemblance," reAd as giNd 4 _Republican."