The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

I AMEN T.

saw that the inhabitants could not levy money for the
relief of the poor, any two justices might impose a rate
in aid for that purpose. And as regarded Scotland, by
the 53d of George 111., it was ordained in respect to
some counties which had been reduced to a state of
distress by a failure of the corn crop, that the Com-
missioners of Supply should assess and levy on all heti-
tors and landowners a sum of money not exceeding
14,0001. for the relief of that distress So far, then, for
precedents. The provisions of the measure were simple.
They authorised the Poor-law Commissioners to levy a
rate in aid on all unions and electoral divisions for the
relief of such unions and electoral divisions as should
be in need of It ; that the rate levied be sixpence
in the pound on the poor-law valuation, the trea-
surer of the county being empowered to impound one-
half of the ordinary rate, so as to extract from it a six-
penny contribution until such rate was collected. In the
whole of Ireland the rate would raise 323,0001., which,
with the 50,0001. already voted, would exceed the
amount of contributions raised from extraneous sources
sn aid of Ireland last year. Of course, in the circum-
tances of Ireland, it must be evident that there were
anions and electoral divisions which would not be able
to furnish their quota.—(Hear.) They were all made
liable, because it was impossible to ascertain how far
the range of insolvency would extend. Were the en-
tire sum raised it would not be equal to meet the whole
of the expenditure, and he apprehended Government
must still supply funds, where necessity existed, on the
credit of the rate in aid The power to impose such
rate was limited to two years, and Government dis-
claimed any intention of continuing it longer. What,
then, was the exact case with which they had to deal?
There were many districts of Ireland, especially those
districts to the west of the Shannon, which were totally
unable to support themselves, and as support could no
longer b 3 given them from Imperial sources, they
had resolved on looking to Ireland for that support.
The unions from which they could expect no support
were twenty-one, but there were ten or twelve others
on the verge of destitution, and others more or less in-
capacitated from supporting themselves.—(Hear, hear.)
It would be in the recollection of the House that the
average amount of poor rate last year, in the whole of
Ulster, was ls. 911. per pound, Munster 3s. 7FI. per
pound, and Leinster Is. I lid. per pound. Comparing
that with the state of the English unions, he found from
e inptohoers
er autne
el aesst yt ewaars we
as high
sh
i4gsh.
al
scl .8, s aletdidi n.
returns, that in twenty unions in different parts of Eng-
i
landothers it was 12s. Ild. per pound.
was not is the levying of this 6d. in
tlwßt awhhnueeidt
poundnleitt
ty'hi nwel parishes
uoess rfhrs
redgas or t
efit
that the objections were taken—it was
against the principle of
the measure.— (Hear, hear.)
And it was asked, why should the county of Antrim
and the town of Belfast be asked to contribute for the
district of Mayo, more than Warwickshire should con-
tribute for the distress of the town of Birmingham. It
must not, however, be left out of view that Ireland was
exempted from twelve millions of taxes, which Englaad
paid. And he, therefore, said there was nothing unfair or
unreasonable in making the more favoured parts of Ire-
land, in this instance, contribute for the distress which
prevailed in it, more especially as those were exempt
from many of the taxes paid by England. It was said
the income-tax would be a preferable mode to the pre-
sent. He would not discuss that now, although at some
future time the House might be called on to discuss the
subject.—(Hear, hear.) All he could say was that her
Majesty's Government would not have been indisposed
had they found that the Irish Members preferred that
system, and they gave them the opportunity of saying
so, though they did not take advantage of it, of intro-
ducing the income-tax in place of the present measure.
Government, however, conceived that the reasons which
prevented Sir B. Peel from extending that Bill to Ireland
when he first introduced it, and also that the reasons which
prevented Lord John Russell, when he moved its conti-
naation, from moving its being extended to Ireland, had
not disappeared, and that therefore it had better not be
extended to that country. But on the other hand the
rate in aid did not require any of that machinery
which would be requisite for an income-tax in
Ireland, nor any more expenses than were at present
iacurred for carrying out the poor-laws, nor would it
require even an augmentation of the staff. It therefore
appeared to Government to be the easiest method that
they had at hand to meet the demands which could be
no longer resisted or postponed.—(Hear, hear.) He
should also say that the Government could not feel any
compunction for the advances that were made for build-
ing workhouses in that country, as they had been the
means not only of sheltering and feeding many a desti-
tute poor person, but that they alto gave employment
to many who would otherwise famish.—(Hear, hear.)
It should also be borne in mind by their Lordships, that
there were several other Bills in progress through Par-
liament for the relief of Irish distress, one of which was
to make such an alteration in the present poor law as
Government considered most judicious and beneficial ;
and another for the better mode of disposing of the
encumbered estates. If he were asked why not bring
those measures simultaneously with this measure, his
answer was that the only reason for bringing it ond
alone was, that they could not wait. Next with regahr e
to the loan of money for the relief of that distress,
assured their Lordships that that was given on the
trust and credit of the rate in aid; and he hoped they
would consider how very precarious that furtive charity
must be if, in conclusion, he should assure their Lord-
ships that statements from the poor-law Commissioners
strongly show, that Government dare not risk any further
delay. Mr. Burke, the poor-law Commissioner of West-
port, states on the 7th of March, that their funds are in-
adequate to meet the meal and milk-contractors, and
that the Commissioners will not hold themselves bound
to answer fur the responsibility. He also stated, that
mortality was very prevalent, and particularly among
small children in the workhouses. Another statement
of the 3d of April shows, that the people are fur the
most part going about in an absolute state of nakedness,
havei i e
h t hopedthhethat
t felt
duelt that
a impressionss theur
ecircumstances
hise
n feeble
their
and aro dying beneath some shelter or another by
hundreds, of cholera and other diseases caused by fa-
minet) f
a Ireland 6 el)nipdie
distress.
hearts wouldwhich
efforts could not effect, for the human suffering
in that country was greater in its intensity
thatnation,
therein e
ri
en
wa
an
sc i
ae
nn
ot t
hoer r
gogdrearvna
tt
one,
a adnedd he
to
than had been ever known to weigh down the ener-
a
gcoienssidolearnady
their miseries, and that was that their calamities were,
from duration, losing that share of sympathy which they
before elicited. He hoped that their Lordships would
look, pot to the principle, but rather to the result, as the
poor in the workhouses, who were at present supported
at the rate of one penny per head per diem, must neces-
sarily die in thousands If not immediately relieved by
this measure, particularly as the meal and milk con-
tractors woulel not supply those victims of distress with
the small portion that keeps body and soul together.
The Earl of RODEN moved as an amendment, that
the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He
had listened with every attention possible to the Noble
Earl (Bari of Carlisle), and was prepared to give him
and the Governusent every credit for their sympathy for
the distress of that country, lie was well aware of the
anxiety of Government to meet those difficulties ;
nor could he forget the honourable and generous
exertions of the late lamented Lord Lieute-
nant of Ireland (Earl lesborough) in behalf
of that distress; but he thought that her Majesty's
Ministers should go back to the real cause of that
distress, and not proceed, as they were now, by such an
unjust measure. He asked the indulgence of their Lord-
ships while he was pointing out to them how little they
were aware of the state of the poor-laws in Ireland, and
what was the difference between the operation of those
'Meg in that country and in this In 1846 a Royal Com-
mission Was instituted to inquire into the circumstances
of poverty under which Ireland was then labouring to
& very great extent, and, in consequence, it was thought
eight that Government should propose an enactment for
t-e the support of the poor, hut he should say
a time, es seed at the instance of that Commis-
that law was fia Pas ,
hth u t. f M
awn, but in accot:clatle. e s gges ton o r.
Nieeolte, who during six wae re la that country, ex-
amined most carefully into the wants and eepditions of
tho people.
H ,ese tent time opposed the measure when
debated by their Lortishipas
- t when it measure
law
law
(Earl Baden) Elect chairman of the
of the laud, be
board of guerdiene, and was happy to Mate, that
through the exertione pf the guardians and the in-
dustry of the people, there existed a general satisfaction,
and the poor were materially bener.t.l4. There was this
difference between the poor-law in England end Ireland,
that in England the farmer paid his own rates, whereas
in Ireland the tenant pays oneshalf and the landlord the
remainder, and that all tenants holding ground under 4i
pay no rates, but the whole is paid by the landlord, He
knew one landlord in Ireland whose rent-roll amounted
to 10,000/. per annum from one estate, 2,0001 from an-
ocher, from which were deducted foe mortgages and
other family claims, 9,500/., leaving him only is,6oQi. per
annum, oat of which he was obliged to pay 8001. per
annum for the poor-rates. Such wag the case with many
of the Irish landlords, which was never felt by
English proprietors. Ira consequence of the failure of the
potato crop in 1845, the poor-14,w of 1835 was necessarily
altered for the purpose of empowering the poor-law
guardians to afford cut-door re lief to certain persons
under certain circumstances, and that alteration caused
actual consfication in some parts of that country. Again,
in 1847, when Irishoifficulties were as great, if not greater,
than in 1845, attempts were made, and successfuly too,
both in private and in public, to avert those calamities;
and he should,sey, notwithstanding what had been stated
by some unworthy Irishmen, that the people of that
country felt and acknowledged the deepest gratitude,
both to the Goyernment and to the people of England,
for their generous sympathy on that direful neeasion.—
(Cheers.) The object of ibis Bill, as far as he under,
stood, was rather to give power tss Foe guardians to pay
the debt lent by the Exchequer, by selling the property
of the country, as well as to relieve the poor, and against
that he protested.
Earl of CARLISLE—No, such is not the case.
Earl of RODEN' eaid he would read the opinions of
Mr. Butt on this Bill, and in those he (Earl Roden) fully
concurred, for while they, the Irish landlords, were
willing to submit tea any taxation which was fair
and just, they were at the same time de-
termined to Oppose so unjust and, unnecessary
a measure as tiee present. They were ready to submit
to taxation, tut it was not for them to specify what that
taxation should be. He thought that aevernment should
intro jute a Bin for that purpose, and then the Irish
Members of both Houtee would support or oppose it as
they considered just; and he regretted to say that he
thought nothing could be more unconstitutional than for
her Majesty's llinisters to invite Members of the House
of Commons to private meetings on that subject, us had
been lately done. It was in the performance of that
duty that be had risen, and be now objeeted to the mea-
sure on four grounds; first, that it was unjust in pip-
eiple; second, that it waz inadequate to meet the objects
proposed for it; third, that it would destroy the work-
ing of the poor-law; and fourth, that it would piece the
strongest argument in the mouths of those persevering
men in Ireland, whose object was to destroy all friendly
relagous between the countries, by bringul gibins a

repeal of the legislative union.—(Hear, hear.) He
trusted that, in the sight of that great Bing who was
cognisant of all their intention':;, they ~vould be
found to be acting justly; anti leaving the issue in His
hands, be hoped it would prove as satisfactory and as

promising as any person must desire, who was anxious
to remove the distress and miseries of that unfortunate

country. The NoLle Lord concluded by moving, as an
amendment, that the Bill be real a second time oa that
day six months.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN said, that if ever be was
disposed to adhere pertinaciously to the opinion ex-
pressed in the report of the Committee appointed in
1535 to consider of the state of pauperism in Ireland, of

which Committee he was a Member; or if he were ever
so factiously inclined he would not attempt to detract
from the merit, which he thought, on such a question as
this belonged to the Government—for intending to pro-
vide for the wants of the Irish people at this time. But the
question, which ought not to be lost sight of. was, would
the measure prove one of permanent good for the future,
by reducing largely the number of claimants for relief,
and improving the resources out of which that relief
was to be granted? He had himself foreseen, and he
had also foretold, th it in all probability snother fai-
, lure of crops would succeed the first, and that, in that

case, the demands for outdoor relief would be extensive

and heavy. He had wished davoutly that things might
have turned out differently; but what had been the re-

suit ? Very unfortunately, his prophecy came true.
There was a great want of food, and, along with it,
clamours for out-door relief, These clamours he felt
himself bound to resist, and he did so at the risk of
being considered hard-hearted, cruel, and indifferent to
the sufferings of his fellow-countrymen. He believed
that many honourable and honest men were deterred
by a fear of these imputations from expressing their real
sentiments, not only upon this, but upon many other
questions. As to being insensible to the sufferings of
his countrymen, he was likely to be amongst the last
who would become obnoxious to that suspicion, for, in
the discharge of the sacred functions of his office, ho had
had opportunities of seeing more of them than'most
people. lie had seen the sons of clergymen turning out
to break stones on the roads to support their parents, and
students from the University go to enlist in the army for
the same purpose. This break down was attributed on
all hands, to the poor-rates. The cattle, the seed, and
the implements of the poor people had been taken
from them to satisfy the poor-rate, and then they had
gone themselves to obtain relief at the workhouse. He
mentioned these things to show that it was very unlikely
\ he should be ignorant of, or insensible to, these hard-
__.

.. _
ships and their remedy. His great object was to pre-
vent these evils and hardships from twing perpetuated
and he should very much like now to understand how
this measure was to obviate their recurrence? It might,
therefore, be accorded to him. that without being indif-
ferent to the troubles and distresses of the Irish people,
he might declare himself unable in his conscience to give
his support to this measure of the Government.—(Hear.)
Lord BEAU NIONT said he would own that the
subject was on all sides surrounded with difficulties; and
be was far from being unaware, especially, of the great
difficulty in which any Government must of necessity be
placed while endeavouring to legislate upon it. What-
ever blame might attach to them in this respect, he
was sure that a large portion of it ought to rest with
the Irish Members themselves, who had made a point of
resisting the progress of the measure. On the other
hand, if the Government, upon becoming acquainted
with this determination of the Irish Members, had stated
`it fairly to the other House of Parliament, he fully
believed that they would not have found themselves so
wanting in assistance as they had. Therefore, while he
blamed the Irish Members for having been uncandid
and ungenerous in their conduct, he also blamed the
Government for not having manifested that resolution,
which, in a crisis like this, they ought certainly to have
shown.—(Hear, hear.) As to the Bill itself, its object,
like that of every Poor-law Bill, was to relieve those
who could not find any other support by their own
means. He was sure, however, that the operation of
this Bill would be to increase the number of persons
in that situation, and to decrease at the same time
the means by which they might be assisted.
In the first place, a national rate would tend much to
decrease the local interest. Within a certain limit they
had a certain amount of control over the rates; but the
moment they spread the rate over a great extent of
district, that moment they lost all control over the rate,
and lessened the beneficial effects of, and interest in, the
operation of the rate. This rate in aid would, in point
of fact, increase the number of insolvent unions, while it
would, at the same time, decrease the number of those
which were yet in anything like a solvent state. Now,
with respect to the collection of the rate, he warned them
that if they proceeded to distrain, they would but reduce
remnantep
fo poor
e manper
property
to letwh hisieh one
h e
the unfortunate people to a state of still greater desti-
tution; wouldotlar e drive the
increase
amp
soest set ehs aesheagdneodnfee—nr
attlhhdeiatisrlands,tr
theyss.
thae wouldand
general
as
that
h tewe consequenceui
pauperism,d
without doing any material good. He warned them,
also, that in collecting this sixpenny rate, they
would but endanger the rate raised under the
present poor-law, and thus risk that which they were
now receiving, as far as the people were able to contri-
bute. He would ask them when they adopted this na-
smbt
drivewai
gte hki
n,
go, o t
,11
on
r t they
any
na-
tional rate, what they were to do with the capitalist who
might be disposed to invest his money in the purchase
of land in Ireland? He (Lord Beaumont) did not, as
things presented themselves under this proposed rate in
aid, see that there was any guarantee to the purchaser
of land against excessive rates and excessive pauperism.
He felt and expressed himself with the certainty of a
prediction, that Ireland was fast progressing towards a
state of transition, and painful though it might be, it
was quite certain hat the land in Ireland must, as a
consequence of the existing state of things, pass from
the hands of its old proprietors into those of other
parties, who could better bear to meet the burdens to
which property in that unhappy country had become
subject. If they were to seek for a mode of redressing
the mighty evil which oppressed the country in the
shape of a vast population, for whom they could not
find the means of employment, and who were conse-
quently reduced to pauperism and idleness, the only
cure, in his opinion, for so great an evil, was to be found
in emigration on an extensive scale. Looking at the
whole question, he must say, that be saw no course for
him to take, but to give his vote against this motion.
The E srl of ROSSE said the Noble Lord who had
just sat down, had so forcibly stated his objections to
the proposed rate in aid, that he need not say anything
in addition on that subject. In all those objections he
fully concurred. He was convinced that if a vigoraks
effort had been made to assist emigration in Ireland
some time ago, they would have had a different state of
things now. He saw no reason why they should not
make an effort to equalise taxation in all parts of the
kingdom, and in Ireland as well. The Noble Lord who
introduced the measure seemed to labour under a mis-
take as to the contribution of Ireland to the Imperial
Exchequer, and for the support of its poor. The Noble
Lord thought its contributions in these respects were
small. But how stood the fact? The income of Eng-
land was 250,000,0001., that of Ireland was 26,000.000/,
or in the proportion of 121 to 1. Now that average
would make Great Britain contribute to the revenue of
the country 47,840,000/., and Ireland 4,160,000/4 but
the fact was that Ireland was now paying to the revenue
4,164,264/. er upwards, of 400,0002 more than her
just proportion. Then, as to local taxation. The
rateable property of England was, in 1847,
one hundred and five millions, and the local taxa-
tion was twelve millions, while the rateable
property in Ireland was 13,117,421/, and the local taxa-
tion 4,294,319/, or three times larger in proportion than
the local taxation of England. He regretted that he
must admit, to the fullest extent, the reasons assigned by
the Noble Lord for introducing his measure, namely, the
destitution which prevailed, but he considered that the
measure would not meet the difficulty. It was the fact,
that the population of Ireland was too large in propor-
tion to the means of empiQytnent. What he wanted to
know was, had Government done anything to diminish
the population, or increase the means of employment?
They had done no such thing, but, on the contrary, they
had by their poor-law of 1547, diminished employment.
The first step then would be to improve the administration
of the poor-law. The next step would be to get rid of the
out-door relief system, and he considered the improving
tha administration of the law would be the means of
doing that. They must, however, separate the Poor-
law Commissioners from the Irish executive before any
good could be done. Until then the Boards of Guar-
dians could not have any confidence in them. Had that
been done before, they would have never heard of the
equalisation of taxation over the whole of the United
quarter-acre clause. He would, then, recommend an
Kingdom, and that they should treat Ireland as an
English county. He concluded by saying, that he had
no faith in the project for the plantation of Connaught,
and that the improvement of the poor-law, and a proper
system of emigration, were, in his opinion, the only
available remedies for Ireland.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said the remarks
of the Noble Earl who had just sat down must command
respect from all sides of the House. He had, however,
hoped that before he sat down he would have suggested
some remedy for the awful distress which prevailed in
Ireland, and to meet which the present measure was
brought forward. That measure was not proposed as a
permanent measure, but simply as a temporary measure
to meet an overwhelming emergency; and though it was
said that the amount to be raised under the Bill would
be insufficient, that was not the essential point in the
case, There were two points to consider. First, there
was an amount of distress in a portion of the empire
which it was painful to contemplate, and the other was,
that it was the duty of Parliament and of Ireland to
contribute far that distress. It was said it was unjust
to tax Ulster for that purpose; but where did they ever
hear of a tax but was in some instances unjust? Ire-
land had long enjoyed exemption from a large
portion of taxation, and therefore Ulster had no
right to claim exemption in times of prosperity, while
she refused to contribute her just quota in times of dis-
tress. The highest poor.rate paid in Ulster in any
electoral division was 4s. 51d. for the year ending Sep-
tember 1848, and the average rate Leer the whole of the
province was js. 1 ld, for the same period. He asked,
could a !oiled proprietor or a farmer be reduced to
pauperiene by such a trifling rate, though he admitted
that there was since a higher rate than the average, of
2s. 7d. in the pound. No ; such is not the cause of the
pressure of the Irish people; but it should be more
justly attributed to the failure in the potato crops, and
it was to meet a recurrence of these calamities through
this failure that this measure was necessary. It shouldibe
also known to their Lordships that the people of England
would not contribute any more to the support of the Irish
poor while there was property in that country ex-
empted from taxation which should go to the supportat
bore so heavily op the
of their poor, and that much of that pressure that
a
Dglisis people
great measure to the want Of a
asst: in of emigration, He was a friend of such a
that nothing
de-
scription of emigration, and considered.
Waded more to improve a proprietor's land than toex-
PfPolePer was
and o7eteindfcious