The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-19 00:00:00

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Peet to pamphlets, be trusted such steps would be taken as
to Prevent those who published history from being liable to the
Penalr.es imposed on those who published news on an un-
Festair,ped press. He trusted that some measure such as that
atemplated would be introduced, for the purpose of giving
the proprietors of be
a copyright in the publication.
'That was a proteniion which he was sure the House would
readily grant those who were large in number, and had em-
barked imnaense property, and skill and industry, in these
newspaper concerns.—( Hear, hear.) He must, however, say
that themped press suffered more from the depredations of
those whobelonged to the same class than from the unstamped
those. belonged Hear. )
Mr, J. JERVIS and Dr. RO exher.
i
satiei'action at the changes which theWRIN Chanc G ellorp ofressed thet Ex-
eiNuer had proposed.
,now r. OIJLB UR N wished to ask the Right Hon. Friend
hey were to come at those printers who had not their Bates registered at the Stamp-office, and who might be en-
gated in printin
that to g unstamped
of the E üblicons ? The CHANCELLOREXCHEQUER replied
Just in eyeeust proceed against them.-as well as they could;
same way as when information was received of the
existence of an illicit still.
Mr- Passed C. BeventiULLEß trusted that some measure would be
for Preventing the news contaid in h paers s
t
h e
,o v Tinies and Morning Chronicle from ne
beingsuc ra tnsferrp a reed, in
- L
Prints. Lours after the publication of these papers, to other
1,..
'Li.- WAKLEY observed, with respect to what had been
said by the Hon. Member for Cambridge, that the printing
Presses were how liable to be seized if they were not regis-
tered, so that by leaving the law as it stood, the difficulty which
the Hon. Member apprehended would be obviated.
'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then pro-
Posed clause 233.
bl Mr. HUME admitted that the Bill had received considera-
-12 Modifi.eation ; but it was evident that it took a long time
*,7
seewring anything from the excise. For his part, he wished
r''" the excise abolished altogether.—(A laugh.) He was
stiaded ,it might be most advantageously dispensed with.
te was exceedingly sorry to see the House shutting the door
-t'ainst a free press ; for it was evident that the object of the
tax ha
to put down an unstamped press. For a paltry penny
ax the reirrn of ignorance was to be maintained throughout
the land. bln the unparalleled situation in which we were,
14.3,'"e revenue in so flourishing a condition, the time of the House
1,,-3 to be wasted for so miserable a consideration. If Govern-
earWere to get rid of all the Stamp Duties they would do
,11101 good, and would obtain more credit than almost by any
-Lauer act.
unri GROTE cordially concurred in all that had fallen from
theh "att. Member for Middlesex. He entertained more repug-
nant feelings towards the present Bill than almost to any mea-
sure which had ever come under his consideration; and he
gtrusted, the time would soon arrive when the Right Hon. the
',lcellor of the Exchequer would propose the abolition of
e PentlY duty, and thereby remove every obstacle to the dif-
- f4ilan of knowledge throughout the country.
Th i e clause was then agreed to.
- Ise remaining- clauses of the Bill, after receiving nume-
te w
ett verbal amendments, were also agreed to.
clauses were then added.
e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pursu.
anco of an intention previously intimated, brought up a clause
t 0 enable Printers to register their names and presses, and
%t iesaereby more effectually to guard themselves against the penal-
Olimposed on the p u blication of unstamped papers.
e clause
-bi was'ae'reed to, and ordered to be added to the
11. Several other clauses having been added to the Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER came for-
ward with another, with respect to which he felt it necessary
tc' s)' a word or two in explanation. After describing the re-
presentations which had been made to him to induce him to
twines
:the Stamp on Newspapers published in Ireland from
°fle Penny to one halfpenny, and the reasons which led him to
resist the applications made upon that point, the Right Hon.
aientleman proceeded to say, that thinking there was some,
tilting in the strong and serious remonstrances made to him by
tee Irish newspaper proprietors, he stated to the parties who
itPelied to him that he would make some concession to the
Irish newspapers in the advertisement duty. The House was
Well aware that the duty at present imposed upon newspapers
onla Ireland was two-pence, upon which a discount was allowed
25 per cent. If, therefore, the duty were now reduced to
~.
not continued, the actual redue-
tiital afforded to the Irish newspapers would be only three far-
Now lags. Now three farthings was not an amount that the
latiblishers could charge upon the price of their paper,
"ald it would consequently happen that whilst they re-
deuive,d only the advantage of three farthings in the re-
t "ton of the duty, they would be obliged to give an advan-
Atge af one penny in the price charged to their purchasers.
Y chi means they would be losers to the extent of one farthing
111 Pee each paper. By way of compensation for this disadvan. -
111gc, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had proposed in
Inland instance to strike off half the advertisement duty in
sorter ; but having been subsequently in communication with
d of the gentlmen representing the Irish Newspapers,
404 k- es the
with two of them who were attached to very
that the
political principles, and having been informed by them
penny the continnance of a discount of 25 per cent. upon the
the est-Ia: 4°llld be infinitely more advantageous (whilst
than the%edoltio: revenue would. certainly not be greater)
felt di. of half the duty upon advertisements, he
Posed qtPoesTl to yield to their wishes, and accordingly now pro ,
Per ten.; add
a elatlSe to the Bill, by which a discount of 25
Nbl- ja''' snould be allowed upon the stamp of Newspapers
's ed in I,
The clause nd.
~ Mr. id T.,!e having been brought up,
,When f.'-', ME declared himself decidedly opposed to it.
Ipia,„. ,T., 'e,"' oPportunity occurred like the present for a.ssimi-
'lid IT ,- ' important part of the laws of the two countries, he
here °,,`.2tee why there should be a higgling about a farthing
Plain "'tin -farthing there. The right course was a perfectly
1ana....°11,„- - ,let the law be the same in Ireland as in Eng-
The-k gear, hear.)
he uni I'IANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to
lar4r.,r•erstood that in proposing this clause he was making no
Ali th emMession to Ireland than he at first proposed to do.
,cotlntrat he
Was anxious to do was to give to public in that
at the Y the whole benefit of the reduction of the stamp, and
Prot.
v•ri •
etors.'aille time to impose no wrong upon the newspaper
Mr. Ail „
Would wilt; thought that exactly the same argument
tow(' not to-the English newspapers as to the Irish. He
npnr, o,"°t conceive whb there should be a less duty imposed
te.-I:Te published in Ireland than upon those published in
ner'n. u:—( Hear, hear.) Much was constantly said of the
14w-:ssitY Of having' equal laws for both countries. If equal
~ :ere necessary, why wilfully establish an inequality in
.""smr atter of newspaper stamps? —( Hear, hear.)
lion.' G• F. YOUNG thought if the suggestion of the Right
s?—
lion . Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer were ac-
pa?a El to, th
I , ' the an
would he obliged to reverse the present po-
tliatros-rY, and call out "Justice for England !" He thought
pul. no most consistent course of legislation for the House to
ix,:ite would be to assimilate the duties of the two countries
4,very respect.
thalhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER contended
Per unless this discount were allowed, the English Newspa-
(hti... Proprietor would have an advantage over the Irish News-
Per Proprietor The difference in the Stamp Duty inEng-
e4cl would •
farthin • enable the English proprietor to put an additional
this discountg. Into his pocket, whilst to the Irish proprietor, unless
~, . were allowed, it would have the effect of taking
~(I..rtii.ing out of his pocket.
1, at, •KOBINSON did not see what the House of Commons
Irish do between the Irish Newspaper proprietors and the
an : Publie•( Hear, hear.) He thought that the duty should
_7 Zactly alike in both countries, and that the Newspaper
Jo oprietors should be left to deal in the best way they could
with the public. In his opinion, the Irish Newspapers had
100 loug been allowed to enjoy an advantage over the English
cosantrie
Papers • and now that, they were altering the stamp in both
s, he thought that the amount of the duty ought to be
perfectly assimilated. With that feeling he should most de-
cidedly oppose the addition of this clause the Bill.
~___M_ r: H Uni."E thought if there were not to be a perfect simi
4,rity in the amount of the duty, it would be better to repeal
{he Whole of it.
of -14,,r• ROBINSON clearly perceived that Under the colour
auowing a discount this was nothing more no less than an
attentr . . .
;„ .- to establish a three-farthing instead ota penny stamp
in and.
Enlll, r:. BAINES saw no reason to object to the proposition
rteined in the clause. The proprietors of newspapers in
a,,g,land? be knew, were not opposed to it—the public in Eng-
au could not be dissatisfied with it_ by
then should a few
'Gentlemen in that House, who knew nothine about the matter,
tiled, as he supposed, could have no possible interest, think it
l e.essary to raise so strong an opposition to a suggestion
•0 itliteh to el 4 and re eas on ry
able? one but themselves appeared to be perfectly
v
ChtUl4r- WYSE expressed his determination to support the
se.
pr. WAKLEY could not conceive why there should be
Tarr-farthing tax upon papers in England and only a three-
s', ng tax upon papers in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. Why
hisata there not be a perfect equality between the two? For
ale Part, however, he would not entreat the Right Hon. Gen-
il,,lsau. the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to withdraw this
r'"Position with respect to the stamp in Ireland ; on the con-
ThaortYtt,_he would request him to adhere stanchly to it, trusting
/life ne House of Commons would relieve him from any further
v..irssuelty upon that point by compelling him to adopt the same
uumt with respect to England.
Whicher a few Words from Mr. Alderman THOMPSON,
%,,a. _ Were not distinctly audible, in the gallery, the clause
;., read a first time.
‘Ja rho • ,
Noce . question that it bo read a second time, the
di.vided. Corn-
• • For the second reading
Against it . ....
52
Air. R Majority
—37
ati
ttel.
,e OBINSON then moved that the word " Ireland" be
ePapir
the cl,e with a view of equalising the duty in both parts of
Air. Gr,,,, .
e tiasoo ",-,FE said that he had given his previous vote under
nception. His strong conviction was, that the amount
'have ha
ought to be the same in both countries. He would
tai:.,a,
.d a•Jower rate of duty in each, but as he could not ob-
ivlt he would vote for a hiher in both.
f. •Ir• WAKLEY trusted if he could not obtain an addi-
aeto , e
to
refuse aefit for England, he should not act so illiberally as
if
ther se it to Ireland ; but he was prepared to contend, that
;ruin!,
!ate of duty were not the same both 'in England and
provincial
1. gross injustice would be committed against the
'Mr, a newspapers of England.
both _ JERVIS advocated the equalisation of the duty in
ccentrics.
th..,,,sCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
~r‘Ltistitise of the circumstances under which he had originally
a"c"Jio_ead the penyduty, and denied that he could fairly be
U 3 a of any departure
_from the principle he then stated.

' He would only say that he should gain considerably by this
smal duty in Ireland, and that if the duty were equalised he
should lose from 60,000/. to 70,0001. a year. The concession
sought for was a mere concession of revenue, which he was
not prepared to make.
Mr. GOULBURN considered that after the House had
sanctioned the Right H rn. Gentleman's proposition for a
penny duty in all parts of the empire, he should be merely
acting in furtherance of his original proposal by voting for
the amendment.
Mr. ROBINSON said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman
found himself in difficulty in consequence of losing the sup-
port of some of his friends who would have supported a
general penny duty, it would only be because he had been
the very first to depart from his original plan.
Mr. F. BARING begged the Hon. Gentleman and the
House to remember that his Right Hon. Friend in his original
speech had expressly stated his intention to give some addi-
tional relief beyond the penny duty to the Irish Newspapers.
The House would do well not to reject the proposal of his Right
Hon. Friend; but if they did, he would have a fair right to fall
back upon his original intention.
Mr. ARTHUR TREVOR considered that the reduction
of the duty, so far from being any relief to the community,
would be the means of scattering abroad a large mass of nui-
sance and a large mass of mischief. If this mischief were to
be done, however, let it be done fairly and aboveboard, and
let them deal equally with both countries.--( A laugh.) No
man in the House was more strongly opposed to the principle
of the reduction than himself; but if it were to be made, he
would have it made equally.
Mr. BLACKSTONE protested against the Irish people,
who were taxed to a far less amount than the English, deri.
ving any greater pecuniary relief, it it were only to the extent
of a farthing.
The Committee divided on the amendment—
Against the amendment lO6
In favour 6l

Majority 45

The Committee again divided on the clause—
In favour of it lO4
Against it
Majority —25
Mr. GROTE then rose to propose the insertion of the fol-
lowing clause :—" And be it enacted, that in the stamp to be
affixed to each and every Newspaper under the provisions of
this Act, the title of such Newspaper shall be expressed in
such convenient manner Mad form as the said Commissioners
of Stamps and Taxes shall appoint ; and the said Commis-
sioners shall cause a proper die or stamp for such Newspaper
to be prepared under their direction, and a new or other stamp
or die to be from time to time prepared in like manner as they
shall think necessary ; and the reasonable costs and expenses
of preparing such stamps or dies shall be from time to time
defrayed by the proprietor of each such Newspaper, and paid
when and as required by the said Commissioners to such person
as the said Commissioners shall appoint to receive the same,
before any paper shall be stamped under the direction of such
Commissioners for each such Newspaper." This proposition
was partially stated on a former evening when the Bill was in
Committee, and it seemed to be received with some degree of
favour : he, therefore, could not but hope that the Right Hon.
Gentleman would now accede to it. He was sure that it must
be a very great and paramount object with every Gentleman
of that House to have the official returns of the circulation of
Newspapers framed in the most accurate manner possible.
He was, however, sorry to say that the returns, stating the
various comparative numbers of stamps taken out by the
newspapers of this country, had been anything but accurate.
In the last return made to the House, it was found that there
were no less than 20 Newspapers which appeared never to
have been supplied with stamps at all, while many others had
affixed to them number's of stamps issued by the Stamp-office,
bearing a very small proportion to their known circulation.
For want of accuracy in the stamp-returns, several papers, the
Sherborne Journal, and the Liverpool Mercury, for instance,
had had credit for a very small circulation, whereas the num-
ber of their publications was very considerable. Now he was
sure it was not the disposition of any Hon. gentleman to give
the proprietors of any Newspaper the advantage of an apparent
superiority in circulation, whereby they might acquire a greater
degree of reputation and of priority over others than the intrin-
sic worth of their Newspaper entitled them to. The Chan-
cellor .ef the Exchequer appeared to be so far sensible of the
mischief that had arisen from the present state of the law on
the subject that he was content to allow any Newspaper that
thought fit to employ a die peculiar to itself, to do so option-
ally. But the Right Hon. Gentleman must perceive that this
would not be a sufficient remedy against the evil complained
of; because those newspaper proprietors who were most will-
ing to resort to the ordinary means of giving to themselves
credit for a greater circulation than they in reality bad, were
precisely that class who would not use the optional stamp.
The House, perhaps, was not aware that to a great degree the
number of advertisements in a newspaper did not depend
merely upon the weight or authority of the paper, but upon
its circulation ; and that there was, therefore, a strong
temptation to the proprietors to have recourse to means by
which they might appear to the public to have a much greater
circulation than they actually had. This temptation to de-
ceive was considerably increased by the facilities afforded to
the parties, by the present system pursued at the Stamp-office.
It was to amend that system that he now brought forward this
clause, and he could not anticipate any serious ground of ob-
jection to the proposition h© was about to tocu.o. It could
not occasion any inconvenience to the newspaper proprietors
themselves; for it could be no more inconvenience to them
to have a stamp with a peculiar title, than to have it without
it ; and as to the expense, it was too trifling to be mentioned.
He had never heard of any one newspaper being publicly
hostile to such a plan ; while, on the other hand, every
fair and honest proprietor must be desirous that his neigh-
bours should be relieved from the disadvantages they laboured
under from the present system. He did not, therefore, anti-
cipate any opposition from the fair and honest proprietors of
newspapers. It had been stated as an objection to his propo-
sal, that by the present system one country newspaper could
borrow stamps from another, and by that means they could
publish their full complement of circulation, whereas if there
was a distinct die this could not be done. Now to this argu-
ment he would in the first place observe, that country proprie-
tors ought, surely, like all other tradesmen, have sufficient
foresight to make provision for their ordinary, or even for any
extra, circulation of their paper. But in the second place, this
argument could be of no avail whatever, inasmuch as the
Right Hon. Gentleman had himself, by the 173 d clause of
this Bill, made it illegal for one paper to transfer stamps to
another. He therefore trusted that his proposition did not
bear with any degree of hardship upon the newspaper pro-
prietors themselves, it would not meet with any opposition.
The clause was then brought up and read.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt bound
to object to the present clause. He wished it to be distinctly
understood that this clause, whilst it imposed a restraint upon
the Newspapers, was in no respects necessary to protect or se-
cure the revenue of the country. He also begged to state to
the committee that, by the post of this day, a circular letter
had been addressed by the Board of Stamps to all Newspa-
pers, stating that any one who wished to have a distinctive
die, indicative of their own paper, upon paying the expense
thereof, a die would be at once prepared. Therefore, the
only question between his Hon. Friend and himself was—
whether it should be obligatory on all papers, whether
they liked it or not, to 'have a distinctive die. Now, what
was the argument of his Hon. Friend ? He said, and said
truly, that the House had been accustomed, from time to
time, to call for returns of stamps, with a view to ascer-
tain the extent of the circulation of newspapers; and that
those returns were delusive. By reason of that delusion,
those returns gave an unfair representation of the extent of
the business of the respective newspapers, and so enabled, and
thereby enabled, certain of them to deceive the public as to
the extent of their circulation, which materially affected the
interest of others on the subject of advertisements. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed he had fairly stated
the argument. Now he should say to his Honourable Friend,
that the proper way of meeting this case was, not by imposing
restrictions on Newspaper in order to avert the inconvenient
consequences resulting from a wrong step originally taken, but
it was by avoiding for the future to take that step which was
wrong. He held it that the Legislature had no more right to
inquire into the -number of papers which any particular news-
paper establishment circulated, than it had to inquire into the
number of stamps which bad been used in an attorney's office.
—( Hear, hear.) In fact, they had no more right to inquire
into the private concerns of a Newspaper establishment than
they had to inquire into the private concerns of any other de-,
scription of business. This had always been his opinion, and
he had consequently always resisted the production of these
returns. They were delusive accounts, and could not be re-
lied on. He always cortended, and would still contend, that
so long as a Newspaper avoided the commission of any offence
or fraud on the revenue it ought to be left fully free and un-
fettered as to the mode of its carrying on its own business.
This subject of a distractive die had been pressed upon his
attention by various persons connected with the News-
paper press, who attached very great importance to it. His
answer always had betn, " It might be very well for you to
make a peculiar mark on your paper; you shall have it if you
ask for it ; but I hay, no right to impose upon nine-tenths of
the newspaper-press t regulation which is of no use as far as
regards the revenue, and which they do not ask for, although
you do." He therefor; left it open to all parties to avail them-
selves of the power cf using a distinctive die or not, as they
pleased. But it hadbeen asked how he could reconcile his ob-
jection to a distinctly die with the 173 d clause, by which it
was rendered penal br any newspaper to buy stamps issued to
any other newspaper He would tell his Hon. Friend how
this could be reconciled. The 173 d clause was a revenue
clause, and was inseted in order to prevent the possibility of
forging stamps or of getting stamps improperly. By this
clause the Stamp-eflce would be enabled to trace any stamp
back to the newspaper which had received it from the office.
That was the sole object of the clause, and not to inquire into
the business of nevspaper proprietors or of any other parties.
These were the gnunuts upon which he objected to this clause.
But there was amber ground. If by passing this clause he should
be compelled to !rile out distinctive stamps for the 250 newspa-
pers that were putished in the country, he must postpone the
commencement d the Bill from the time it was now proposed to
come into operaton, because it would be utterly impossible
to get the dies tady, and to have all the arrangements made
by the period new fixed. But if the Bill should be carried
in its present foiy, and if the use of the die (adopted option-
ally) should be fiend to answer, and no inconveniences should
arise from it, thin he for one should not object at a future
period to propoc to make that which he thought ought at
first to be a fee and voluntary plan obligatory upon all
parties. But he was reluctant now to impose such
a regulation pen the newspapers of the whole United
Kingdom, whq, in point of fact, only a few considered it
of any importace. Another objection to the adoption of the
clause was the : suppose a newspaper should change its
title—a thing by no means improbable, the consequence
would be thatle die !pug be changed ; and then the whole