The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-11 00:00:00

TITHES.

Major BE A UCLERK presented a petition from Surrey,
praying for the extinction of tithes ; also a petition from the
same place, praying for some alteration in the Beer Act.

'FACTORIES' BILL.

In answer to a question from Lord ASHLEY,
-.........._

Mr. POULETT THOMPSON said it was not the in-
tention of his Majesty's Government to persevere in the
Factories' Bill during the present Session, as from the
state of public business it was not likely it could be carried.
Lord ASHLEY expressed his hope that his Majesty's
Government would put the existing law in force, as they had
abandoned the idea of persevering with the Bill of the Right
Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. P. THOMPSON said that the Government would do
every thing in its power to enforce the provisions of the exist-
ing law. The Home Office had exerted great vigilance on the
subject.

On the motion of Captain AL SAG ER, the Wandsworth
Chapel Marriages Bill was read a second time.

It being now 5 o'clock,
The SPEAK ER said as the House was now abdut to pro-
ceed to public business, it was his duty to require that the
special report from the South Durham Railway Committee be
read.

The report was read by the clerk.
The SPEAKER said the House having resolved that both
Members be summoned to attend in their places forth-
with, he had to inform them that one Hon. Member (Co-
lonel Sir F. Trench) attended in his place. The Sergeant
had sent a messenger to the lodgings of the other, but he was
not there, nor was it known where he was. Under these cir-
cumstances he bad ordered the messenger to wait at the
lodgings, and serve the Hon. Member with the summons as
soon as possible. As there was one of the Hon. Members
present, probably he would give his word that he would take
no steps in the matter until the House had determined upon it
when both were present.
Sir F. TRENCH said he had but a very short explanation
to give. The Hon. Member (Mr. Wason) moved a resolu-
tion in the Committee which he thought absurd.
Mr. L A MBTON would put it to the Gallant Colonel
whether he would enter into any explanation in the absence of
the other party.
Sir F. TRENCH—Then, Sir, I have no further expia-
tion to offer.
The SPEAKER said as the matter had been mentioned to
the House, it was his duty to call upon the Hon. Member to
give his word that he would not take any proceedings in the
matter in the meantime.

Sir F. TRENCH had great pleasure in submitting to the
Speaker, and to the will of the House—(Cheers)—and the
more so, as he had already put himself in a position to take no
further notice of the matter.

Mr. FIUME presented a petition from Leicester, very nu-
merously signed, in favour of the Irish Municipal Bill as it had
originally passed the House of Commons.

AFFAIRS OF CANADA.

The HON. MEMBER then presented a petition which he had
that day received, of very great importance. It was from the
Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada, and signed on their
behalf by the Speaker. He had also been favoured with a
varietr,of documents which it was impossible, according to the
forms of the House, to have laid before it ; but the petitioners,
after reciting various grievances of which they complained,
referred in strong terms to the evils of irresponsible legislation,
which bad been most injurious to the interests of that country,
and which compelled them last year to strip the supplies.
He (Mr. Hume) would bring the subject very shortly under
the consideration of the House.

Sir G. GREY would not enter into the merits of the peti-
tion after what the Hon. Member had stated ; but he felt
bound to say, the petition—a copy of which he had seen—
contained charges against the character of the Governor of
Canada. An answer to those charges had been sent to the
Government, and if the House permitted the petition to be
printed, he should. move for a copy of the document which
contained an answer to the charges.
CORPORATE REFORM. _ _ _

Mr. MULLINS presented a petition from 1,500 inhabi-
tants of Newtown in Kerry, against the Lords' Amendments.
Mr. LYNCH presented a petition 'from Galway, praying
for Corporate Reform.
Mr. POWER presented petitions from Edermine, Oil-
gate, Tacumshane, and other places in the county of Wexford,
against the Lords' amendments, praying for Corporate Reform,
and the abolition of Tithes in Ireland ; also complaining of the
enormous expenses incurred by the recovery thereof in the
Court of Exchequer, when such are recoverable at petit
sessions.

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, JUNE 11, 1836.

'cons:ito:ion of the House of Lords, that it should change from
time to time by the introduction of fresh members ; and the
question was, whether the class of society out of which were
g(nerally selected the individuals raised to. the Peerage, was
ofsuch a way of thinking as to render it impossible that, in the
course of years, the House of Lords would become re-orga-
nised an f changed in feelings, in the same degree that the
same change would have operated in the class from which they
had been taken. If this be denied, and if it were granted that
the feelings of the class in question were so opposed to that
portion of the constituency of the country represented by the
!louse of Commons, as to render it impossible that the feel-
ings:and vices of the House of Lords could be- so radically
changed as to bring them into conformity- wi'h those of the
House of Commons ; then, he maintained, that the great
political difference which existed ought not to be represented
as a difference existing between a certain number of the Mem-
bers of Cie II mse of Lords and the people, but the situation
of parties ought fairly to be stated as a total opposition of the
who!, of the upper class of society to that portion of the
people represented by the House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.)
He wonl,l not follow the Mon. Member for Waterford
in many of the subjects he had adverted to. Nor should lie
follow the lion. Gentleman in his travels through different
countries of the Continent in search of municipal institutions,
fur he could not but think that there were circumstances—pe-
culiar circumstances—in the situation of Ireland as regarded
this country which rendered the example of other countries
not simirly situated of no possible importance to the
Legislature of Great Britain. Those circumstances
were that the inhabitants of Ireland were divided into
a majority and minority peculiarly and singularly situ-
ateda majority poor, uneducated, mistaken, as they
(the Opposition) considered, in point of religion a
minority confessedly educated, and loyal in polities.—(A
-laugh.) He knew what that laugh meant. He said loyal,
because, notwithstanding the universal disappointment of
their own views, they still desired to continue their adherence
to the Union and their loyalty to the Crown.—(Hear, hear.)
A majority and minority thus constituted were set against one
another in a virulence of hostility not to be found in any other
country; and, moreover, there was the fact that this minority
had been maintained in a most improper supremacy, while
the majority had been reduced to what he admitted to have
been a most unworthy subjection, and that the question now
was, not whether they should remove as well the supremacy
of the minority as the subjection of the majority, but only whe-
ther the subjection of the majority should be changed to a not
less bitter subjection of the .minority.—( Hear.) That was the
real question. Both Houses were agreed that it was wise to
abolish the supremacy of the minority: It was asked, on the
other side, why were not the Protestant Corporations left
untone!ied ? The reason was, that they (the Opposition)
wished that there should be no supremacy of the one sect or of
the other.—(Hear.) They were called on by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kilkenny- to do Justice to Ireland. He
did not quarrel with the expression ; but he could not see how
the call could consistently be made by the lion, and Learned
r. A friend of his (Mr. Pracd) had recently attended
at Limerick a meeting, at which the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber had made a most eloquent speech on the miseries of the
people of Ireland. The same gentleman had, in the course
of the day, had an opportunity of witnessing, in company with
a Pri.st of the Roman Catholic persuasion, places where he
had seen more misery than it had ever been his lot to wit.
ness anywhere. After the meeting (which was on the subject
Of the poor laws) lie suggested the desirableness of a subscrip-
tion by the 800 gentlemen present on behalf of the unfortu-
tiate beings whom he had seen in so much misery, but he
was answered that it would not succeed if it were proposed,
for that such a mode of dealing with the question was not po-
pular. 'But they (the Opposition) did not feel themselves
called on to do justice to Ireland in the manner proposed by
the lion. and Learned Member, more especially when they were
told by him that he wanted the establishment of municipal
corporations, not for the purposes of lighting and paving, but
as normal schools of agitation. They were of opinion that it
was in schools of a very different kind that the people of
Ireland ought to be trained, that they ought to be graduated
at colleges of a very different description. The onurse which
the Hon. Members opposite wanted them to pursue would, in
his humble 'judgment, be neither agreeable to the House of
Commons, consistent with their duty as Representatives of the
people, nor consonant to the trust which had boon reposed in
them.—( Hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON regretted most sincerely that in
either branch of the Legislature the language of conciliation
should ever have been forgotten, and, therefore, he could as-
sure them that with whatever freedom lie might discuss the
question, he would not be found to speak of the other House
of Parliament otherwise tban in terms of respect.—(Hear.)
Every one on the other side of the House who had spoken in
the course of the debate, had taunted those on his side of the
House with the expressions used by the lion. and Learned
Member. for Kilkenny on the subject of Repeal. Now his
(Lord Elmington's) sentiments on that subject were well
known, and therefore he had no hesitation in repeating what
he had stated more than once before, namely, that he consi.
dered a repeal of the Union would be a dismemberment of
the empire. Even civil war would, in his judgment, be a
much less misfortune than the dissolution of the Union exist
ting between England and Ireland.—(Cheers.)
.Ho should
like them well to reflect upon the grounds on which the Le-
gislative Union between the two eouutrles was carried, He
was old enough to remember something about not only what
the measure proposed, but the arguments by which it was en-
forced; and what were the principles on which that measure
proceeded ? Why, that the people of Ireland should enjoy
equal laws, possess similar rights, and, in short, fully parti.
cipate with the people of this country in ail the advantages of
the English Constitution. —(Hcar.) These were the senti-
ments that pervaded the powerful and eloquent speech of Mr.
Pitt in 1800, on proposing ,that measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Pitt, after combatting tlki arguments raised against the
insult which it was alleged he was inflicting on the national
pride of Ireland, in depriving the people of that country
of their Government and independent Legislature, said, " A
country which, against the greatest of all dangers that threaten
its peace and security, has not adequate means of protecting
itself without the aid of another nation, if that other be a
neighbouring and kindred nation, speaking the same language,
whose laws, whose customs and habits are the same in prioeis
pie, but carried to a greater degree of perfection, with a, more
extensive commerce, and more abundant 111044 S of acquiring
and diffusing national wealth—the stability of whose Govern-
ment—the excellence of whose Constitution is more than ever
the .adaiiration and envy of Europe, and of which the very
country of which we are speaking can only boast an inade-
quate and imperfect resemblance—under such circumstances,
I would ask, what conduct would be prescribed by every ra-
tional principle of dignity, of honour, or of interest? I would
ask whether this is not a faithful description of the circum-
stances which ought to dispose Ireland to a union ? Whether
Great Britain is not precisely the nation with which, on these
principles, a country, situated as Ireland is, would desire to
unite ? Does a union, under such circumstances, by free con-
sent, and on just and equal terms, deserve to be branded as
proposal for' subjecting Ireland to a foreign yoke? h 4 WA
rather the free and voluntary association of two ,great coun-
tries, which join, for their et:lntl-eon benefit, in one empire,
where each will Maintain its proportial weight and importance,
undo the security of equal laws, reciprocal affection, and in-
separable interests, and which want nothing but that indisso-
luble connection to render both invincible ?

Non ego nec Teucris Italos parere jubebo,
Nec nova regna peto paribus se legibus ambm
Invietre genies mterna in kedera mittant.'"

These were the :Sentiments of Mr. Pitt, and such were the
grounds upon which the measure of the Union was at that time
defended ; but what would that great Statesman say if he were
to return to earth, and, after an elapse of thirty-five years,
hear the ill-omened words which had been so often alluded to
in the course of this debate? He had no wish tq repaiii what
he thought Mr. Pitt would say if he were ut,,w told that such
words had been applied to the people of Ireland by the leader
of the ConserYatiVe paitty in one of the Houses of Parliament
Anil who affected to bold his name and memory in rove,
recce, although acting as far as possible in opposition to tho
principles Which he had laid down. What, ho should like to
know, would Mr. Pitt say if lie beard that, after the abuses of
the Municipal Corporations of England bad been reformed,
and subjected to a vigilant popular control, they refused to cor-
rect the abuses of the Corporations of Ireland ? Would he
consider this an assimilation of the Governments of the two
countries which were parts of the same empire, or would he not
rather consider it as an insult, a degradation, attempted to ho
inflicted by a powerful nation on a country that was wealior• and
less powerful ?—( Cheers front Mr. O'Connell aud other Mem-
bers on the Ministerial benches,) He would ask the Right
lion. Baronet, he would ask the Noble Lord opposite, whe-
ther, in consequence of the difference existing between the
two Houses of Parliament, they really thought a change in the
Government could be effected, or whether, in short, any other
Government than that now in power could possibly carry on
the business of the country with satisfaction to the people?
They must be aware that they could not apply their measure to
Ireland without the aid of military force, and therefore be
must put it to them whether they believed the people of Eng-
land would sanction any such proceeding --,( Hear, hear.)
When he first saw the amendments as they came down from
the other House of Parliament, it certainly appeared to him
that but ona alternative was left to them, and therefore it was
thabt
II Ito.od u o:it ai ls Iyp
rrejoicedopoproposition
na t the wise course which his
!Friend had taken, and the temper and discretion which
tie forward in ord.er to prevent the
mischief which must otherwise have arisen.--(Hear.) The
Noble Lord concluded by declaring that the proposition of his
Noble Friend should have his c0.,,i44 sttPitctl,
Mr. H. TWISS tkli‘i*u had been made to Mr. Pitt
—but, even snpcino.r.•
%liat that great statesman were pre-
sent, wt could take a retrove%ivo view of' what had taken
place, was it not likely that he would call to mind all
that
had Item by the Honourable and Learned Member
fits Killicooy, who, not content with calling the people of
this oeuntry tyrants and oppressors, taxed them with beinif
strangers
Learned Member for Kilkenny who IVA cil'AM4aked the pre-
sent agitation, and on him oViallt
01 14 the consequences of
and Saxons. It was, therefore, the WA.. 40
all the evils. tytt folio* (Mr, Twiss) would not
the time
4°0'19. ke,Pgth Or-sayine• that Ireland ought not tq have the ad.
valiVes of Sluniciparcorpoi•atiOps,, b,4; ho weuld assert that
1 ad
Lordor
gs4.,e should be conceded to that
not yet arrived when s‘wli institutions as the No-
ble
"*.i."Milk`k -*V *eh r, hear," from the Ministerial benches.)
‘v.hat the law entitled the people of Ireland to they had. They
habeas Corpus Act, the 10310*.; awl all other
were not denied Trial by Jury ; they had the huneAt 0f the
rightc
,L_ • ',3s,sks. ; but he denied that they
wii;aliilqgVicScotlandAT 4`'ll` P"' oily, foQtina as England
.0, loe 1) aced on .
with regpect to NALMIMIII4; VAlpiersations. The
circumstances of those equutfleA ,txcbrO Act at all comparable
with the state oftl~a In Rogland or Scotland they had
no neeeFetitx for a Constabulary
Act, neither did they require
;ri o;.h.er. n 03ercion Bill, or a Peace Preservation
c'Heat.,ll;eay.) The whole of Ireland was convulsed by igita-

' .••••.....t.........•n•......0...,.+..................,
tion ; and so far from disorder being checked or controlled Ministry, from that moment every thing was forgiven, though
by the laws, it was actually on the increase. But they had perhaps not forgotten.-( Hear, ael cheers front both sides of
been told that they were bound to carry out the principles of the House.) What did the Irish party obtain ? Measures
Catholic Emancipation. He should like to know what was were promised favourable to Ireland. Those only they sought
meant -Pt, this ? He had been a strenuous supporter of Ca- fur. What was gained upon the other side whoa they came
tholie Emancipation ; and when warned of . the conse- I hitt power ? They stipulated for office.-( Hear, and cheers
quences of making that concession, he bad declared that I from the Ministerial Members. ) Did the bight Hon. Be-
he hid no fears for the result. That miseesure was intended to rs»ut remember wile was the death .stroke to his Ministry?
pacify Ireland, but he was sorry to say that it had prod iced die Let him think on Kritchleall, urn Lefroy, tepee tae di,i.
very contrary effect. It hal been seal that Catholic ismaeci, I sion can the Civil List.---( Hear, and cheers. ) What on his
petion li .gi been carried too late. He was wit there to argue ( Mr. Shiel's) side of the House IVR; asked for by the Irish
that qu-stion. But he must express his apprehension that the neither, ? The beat it and advantage of their country
people of England would have to repent that it hail ever been alone. Let. Clem show him one man arnonest them who was itt
carried. The great object the measures of the Government Plaee•-(Cheers.) Of all the Irish Members, the only one in
seemed to have in view was the extinction of Protestantism in office was the lion. Member for Kildare._(Cheers.) They
Ireland. and the application of Church property to other put-- asked but for justice, because they knew that in that was in-
poses ; and Repeal was the weauon by which the Hon, and eluded equality. They were charged with entering into a com-
Learned Member for Kilkenny forced them to obey his man- pact. In what did it consist? That there should be dune
dates and wishes.
that which, in their hearts, the Opposition knew ought to be
Mr. (3 ISBORNE wished to call the attention of the House dune for Ireland.-( Hear, hear.) Ile should not dwell' tin)
to the real object of the amendments made in this Bill by the longer upon this subject--he had been led beyond the line
other branch of the Legislature. The principle involved in that he had intended to pursue upon this subject ; but the
these amendments was neither more nor less dian the &straw- Hon. Member for Sligo had forced him to do so, era for
tion of the municipal rights to which the people of Ireland going so far, he trusted he should be excused by al'a parties
were entitled, but which they were not to be allowed to enjoy, in the House.--(Hear, hear.) It was, lie thought, of im-
because the majority of them belonged to a certain religion. portance that the debate should end that night, and there_
This was the principle of these amendments. The agog fore it was his intention to be as brief as possible. He did
Member for Sandwich had last night alluded to the right of not mean then to 'enter into the question of the differences
judgment upon public measures which the House of Lords between the Corporation for Ireland Bill, as it was returned
were entitled to exercise. No one dreamt or questioning to that House, and as it went into the Lords. There was r,i_
the rights of the House of Lords in that respect. But lie other
question now between the two parties that divided that
did not think it advisable that the Lords should stand out upon House-it was a question between the House of Lards and
the exercise of extreme rights ; for if they did so the House the House of Common;. Before he went inte, the facts of
of Commons might equally be called upon to stand upon the the case, he should remark upon the princitsk applicable to
assertion of their extreme rights also. If the House of Lords those differences. He had one authority to quote, it was
were determined to pursue their own course he thought that that of Mr. Cannin, and it was to be found in a speech of
the House of Commons ought to be equally determined in his delivered in June, 1827, after amendments had been in-
pursuiag theirs.-( Hear.) Whatever the opinions of a ma- troduced into his Corn Bill. The object of those amend-
jority in another place might be, he did not think that the ma- meats was to destroy M 0
--r. -Inniv",:'s administration. The Bill
jorite in that House could recede without disgrace. The had been sent up front the re
• aommons to the Lords -there an
principle which they now contended for wad, the extension of amendment was introduced which was fatal to the principle of
the same municipal rights to England and Ireland. This was the Bill. Be wishP"te now the House to observe that lie was
what Ireland had a perfect right to expect. The Hon. Gen. not quoting D luau who was a revolutionist ; he was quoting a
tleman concluded by deprecating- any compromise on the part Ida" Who was devoted to the maintenance of existing institu-
of that House. He was confident of success in the feint- tim•.'s as any one who then listened to him, and here was the
nation.
language of Mr. Canning-this was the advice which Mr.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that the a
queeeon which ti.,, had Canning suggested that the unreformed House of Commons
to consider was, simply whether there should be'r'g union.' with ought to adopt. Mr. Western having moved an amendment
Ireland or no union ?-(Hear.) They 'Th.° now to decide to enforce those adopted by the Lords, Mr. Canning said-
whether Ireland was to be governg' on the principle of the " I agree, Sir, with the Hon. Gentleman, that something is
Act of 1800, or under distienei and separate provisions. He necessary to be done; but the rule I should lay down upon
considered that they bad not to decide whether the Irish the subject is a very plain one. As, I presume, the House of
people were to be considered as inferiors or as equals. He Commons is not so reduced as to abjure what its Members
had heard of indivikalakmeing placed out of the pale of the con- have declared to be necessary principles, to rescind their
stitution t but the larilieat was an attempt to place a nation out deliberate resolutions, and to throw away as waste paper that
of the pale cif the constitution. He contended that the Bill of Bill which they have so much and so carefully considered,
the Lords was fraudulent and insolent, and intended to de- merely because in a certain assembly, which, for many rea-
fraud the people of Ireland of their just rights. It was sons, is entitled to our respect, they did not happen to be
argued that the intention of this Bill was to abolish entertained with that courtesy which might have been ex-
Corporations in Ireland. The object of the Bill was no such petted, but were made the subject of an amendment, which
thing. He contended that the Bill provided for the protec- not merely went to rescind what we had enacted, but to in-
tion of the earporato property. The Hon. Member proceeded troduce principles, that,• besides being new, were positively
contrary to what we had determined to be necessary. Let the
to comment on the construction of the word " except" in the
Italeaded Bill of the Lords, and contended that the object of House themselves feel this as they may. If there be a single
spark of pride or of shame in it, they will not submit to it."
this amendment was to protect the funds of the Corporations.
He contended that the Bill as it stood now was a fraudulent This was the doctrine laid down by Mr. Canning.-( Hear,
Bill. It was a Bill that would be of no use whatever to Ire- hear.) Now, the Bill which was before them had been car-
land, The object of the measure was to keep up a Protestant ried by a large majoritya-a majority of sixty-four-in a House
eeeeedeney in Ireland. One of the arguments against the of Commons called by the Right lion. Baronet.-(Hear,
coneoision of this measure was that the Catholics would avenge and cheers.)-Now, what had been done with respect to this
the past. He contended that this was an unfoundel objection. Bill? A resolution had been proposed by a Noble Lord, who
The experience of the past sufficiently proved that such an was known to be the translator of Faust, and whd in proposing
expectation was unfounded. In 1781, when the troops in Ire- such a resolution, seemed to have consulted with some,
land unmounted only to 5.00 w, and when there were 100 000 familiar.-( Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) What was one
Irish under arms, how did the Irish people act ? The Hon. on the other side ? They were not satisfied with liter easing
Member related an anecdote, that during some of the pro- the influence of the Castle, but care was taken chat all
ceed:n sof 17811, of a mob, the BishoP of B, iitoi bovine come existing offices should be preserved. Such WO., the sym-
into the house of Lord Charlernont, saying,"Blood, my Lord, we pathetic solicitude finr speculating. trustees re`d plundering
shall have blood ;" Mr. Grattan and Lord-Charlemont who were Corporators, and all were most carefully maiertained.-( Hear,
present at the time, stated that, so far as their influence went, hear, hear.) And yet they were to be this treated, because it
there should be no blood. He referred to the elections that was said that they were " aliens in lan,r,„„g, it was rather
had taken place in Irelend, in which in many instances Pro- hard that their defect in language si.m
. '
eld cost them their at-
testants had been preferred to Catholics. He, a Protestant, stitutions. -( Hear, hear, and cheers.) There would be a last-
had been returned to that House by a Catholic constituency. ing recollection of the words app),ied to them. They were said
He concluded by saying, that unless they totally extinguished to be " aliens in language, ir, country, and in blood." Now,
liberty in Ireland the people never would be brought to sub- be called upon Hon. Members opposite to say did they adopt
mit to partial and unjust legislation. They required to be go- that phrase ?-( Hear, la ear.) Did they deny it ? Or dare
veined on the principles of British citizenship, and on those they confess, and Paish at it ?-(Cheers.) He asked the
principles alone would they submit to be governed.--( Hear.) Right Hon. Memlaer for Tammvorth did he adopt that phrase ?
Lord SANDON, who was scarcely heard in the gallery, Was it, and he dtd so, with every respect for that Right Hon.
denied that the corporate property in Ireland was more than Baronet, wee it he who mi•ould now say that he had conceded
50,0001. a year-neither did the Bill deprive Ireland of Mu- emancipatieo, to those who were aliens in country, creed, and
nicipal Corporations for local purposes. The abolition was language ?...( Hear, hear.) Let the Opposition mark to what
proposed because the people of that country had their political a condition they had' reduced themselves. He entreated of
feelings in so excited and excitable a state that it was not safe the lioble Lord who sat beside the Right Hon. Baronet to re-
to entrust power in the hands of the majority. As to the re- Tr.ember who was his leader-who at the head of his perty.- '
fereece which had been made to the Quarterly Review, he ac- (Cheers.) Did the Noble Lord remember-he was sure the
knots ledged no such authority, and it was not fair to taunt House could not forget his powerful and emph,:cie language
those at his side of the House with contemplating martial law upon a former occasion, and with what force nc had useda
for Ireland, races) especially when the taunt came from that quotation, from which he might now apply to, the Noble Lord
party who, three years ago, asked the House to pass the Coer- these words__oioo Bill.-( Cheers.) " Yet time serves wherein you ma•ore yourselves
Mr. S HEIL observed that to the Noble Lord opposite he Your tarnished honours, and rest redeem
should make this simple observation-the town which that Into the good thoughts or. I.lle world again :
Noble Lord reprmented was within twelve hours dis- Revenge the jeering and disdained contempt
tance of Dublin. Now, what would the Noble Lord think, Of this proud King.,•4-( Cheers. )
if the extraordinary proposition were made to him, that a He should now pass with as much velocity to the remaining
Corporation was to be continued in Dublin, • and refused to facts. They could not bat observe that the proposition of the
Liverpool ?Duke of Richmond was rejected--a proposition that came
Lord SANDON-Look to Manchester. from one who supported Conservative principles.-( Cries of
Mr. SHEIL-No; for Dublin had a Corporation even be- " No, no," from the Opposition Members.) Why, that Noble
fore Liverpool possessed one. But how e dub! the people of Duke had resigned -with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) and
Liverpool feel if it were suggested.tteat their Corporation was did be not support Conservative principles with more than a
not to be reformed, but abolished, and its estates transferred to convert's zeal ?---( Hear.) Having thus quoted the authority of
Commiss'oners of the. eiown ?-( Cheers.) Did the Noble Mr. Canning upon the great constitutional principle involved
Lord not know-_and he appealed to the candour and frank- in the conflicting principles of time two Houses of Parliament,
nass of the Noble Lord-if an universal feeling of indignation he had now another authority to go to. This was a speech de-
would he excited by such a proposition ?-He passed from the livered at the Merchant Tailor's-hall, on May 11, 1835.
Noble Lord to the Hon. Member for Sandwich. lie (Mr. (Hear, hear.) He found the report of this speech, not in the
Skit) was always exceedingly loth to speak of hilt:self--it was debates of Hansard, nor in the Mirror of Parliament, but in
his opinion that tho more a man avoided speaking of himself, a small volume of speeches of Pest rate eloquence delivered by
the more did he-manifest a regard for his own character, ad- 'the Right lion. Sir Robert Peel, and corrected by himself.--
vance his own interests, and please his audience. But really (Hear, hear, and a lausfn.) lie entreated and solicited the
the reference that had been made by that Hon. Member to the attention of every man whom he at that moment addressed, to
speech delivered by him at Thurles, imposed upon him the obli- the principles laid down in the extract which he was about to.
gation of removing that which, on the part of that Hon. Mem- read to the Hoene ; principles in which the relative position of
ber, was misconception, and with others misrepresentation, the two Hoe ses of Parliament in regard to one another, and
He hoped that the House would begin to observe, that it was their joie: relation i :
n respect to the executive, were distinctly
maagra ; lie would give the extract verbatim as he found it'
with the utmost reluctance he spoke of himself. He assured laid.
the House that he had clear and unequivocal proofs to produce --(Cries of go on, go on.) The Hon. and Learned Gen_
in confirmation of what he had to state.-( Hoar, hear, 'hear. 1 denten then read the following passage from the speech re-
He was not about to say, that the etteeeh that he had mace at ferred to :-" I warn you that you must not place a firm roll-
Thuries had been misreported. Par from it-be avo-wed the ance upon the prerogative of the Crown on the influence
report; tuft he denied the emementary that h^ been made or authority of the House of Lords.-(Cries of " Speak out.")
...a
upon it.-(llear, hear.) Again and again it had been al- The prerogative of the one, the authority of time other, are
legecl that a compact had been entered. into with the Irish constitutionally potent in controlling the powers of the
pertg, ea which his Hon. Friend on the left was at the head. Lower House, but you must not now-a-days depend upon
Now he had not spoken of such e compact; but he spoke of them as bulwarks which are impassable, and which can. Ito
the compactness of the union that prevailed amongst Members committed without apprehension to thestorm and strugg
sitting upon that, as th;re did upon the other,
le of
Y __Yes 1 act both
side of the events. The. Government of the countr" House ( Head and cheers•from sides hear it for to both sides it affords matter for reflection-
, and who would deny it ?-,
buds sides of the House). If they insisted upon a proof of " The Government of the country, and the mode in which it
tho compactness of that union, -he would say to them, is conducted, allow me to tell you, must mainly depend upon
" Cireuntspice."-( Cheers). No such statement was made by the Constitution of the House of Commons.-(Hear, hear.)
him, as that a compact.hhd been entered into. He spoke of I again say, the 'Royal prerogative, the authority of the
"a compact junction;"_ but the word "junction" was left out House of Lords, are most useful-nay, necessary, in our
in the commentary. In place of the epithet "compact," the mixed and balanced Constitution., from both sides
word "tompact" had been introduced.---( Hear ! and laugh- of the House.) But you must not strain these powers. You
ter from the Opposition). Hon. Gentlemen opposite would not consider that that was worthy of the name of a Go-
smiled, ae It lie had recourse to a variety of intonation to mark vernment tt:hieh existed upon nothing but a series of collisions
the, eltettnction.-( Hear, hear, from Opposition Members.) and hostilities between the two branches of the Legislature„-_
It was rio such thing, .He had tho speech by him at that mo- ( Marked and protracted cheering from the Opposition.) You
ment, amid if they called upon him to read the paragraph he would rather see them moving in that harmonious manner v.tiieli
would et once do it.-( Cries of " Hear, hear, and read.") insures the utility of each and the efficiency of all. I a'-,k vou,
110 hail hitherto refrained from alluding to this subject ; be. then, to take means to assert in the House of Comuir.ns those
(settee he had found in a reported speech of the Hon. Member principles which we believe to be just, and to es ereise that
for Bradford, that he intended to make this the subject of one authority to which you are fairly entitled.-(Cieeers.) On
of' the many motions, with which he had threatened the House, taking office I avowed my determination to abde 'ay the Reform
He had waited, therefore, until the Hon. Member bad intro- Bill. I trust I have redeemed that pledge, not by a niggardly
duced that motion, as lie had brought fdrward others._-( Hear and cold acquiescence in details, but I trust, tut honest ;and ge-
and laughter.) lie should now read the haat passage in his nerous deference to the broad principle it int olved.-(lronical
speech, to show the spirit in which it had been delivered. It cheering.) On this broad, constitutional principle my friends
stated that between the Whigs and the Irish people a coin- and I acted. We acted in the spirit of the Reform Bill,
pactneea of union now existed. Now, it was upon such sea- When we found that we bad re
et the confidence of the House of
timents that it had been over and over again stated by the Commons, although the Parav against us was miscellaneous in
Hon. Members for Leeds and Bradford, and by others, that the extreme-( wLau eater and cheering)-although the majo-
there as a compact between the Irish Members and the Go- ritY wag Small, -telt it our duty to resign.-(Cheers.) How-
vernment. The lion. Member for Bradford had declared ever stronely.
p • we might have opposed the elective system before,
that "they knew perfectly well what Mr. Sheil had said, that " noW.'.,ettered to our pledge • we not only gave time Reforet
there was such a compact, and that Mr. Sheil should explain Bill a fair trial, but we regarded it as a constitutional settle-
that in the House of Commons."-(Cheers, and " Oh, oh !" 'inent of a great question.-( Loud cheers.) We did not en-
front the Opposition Members.) It really was itiroluntar",, . tertain the idea of governing the country against a majority
that he was dragged into this discussion:, len of this 'Le „:,-••, of the Reformed House of Commons."-(Marked cheering
quite sure, that however greatly the spirit of part- •might . accompanied and followed the conclusion of this extract. )
wail, yet in a matter which wasl personal, he -.
sas ‘ure thatptrhee lie would now ask the Right Honourable Baronet, "Do you
spirit of fair play would he always foe -
entertain the same opinions on this subject now ?-( Hear, hear,
i'd e»red • t
omitomina c.--
( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Now
and cheers.) Mark how the facts stood. Lord Melbourne
'de should i
from hie speech, and for this -
eeasoin, that stn was bias passageins s resigned, and the Honourable Baronet dissolved Parliament
1 at that moment not to
without meeting it. There was not an instance in history of'
'`.cacti the late Goverment, but to vin-
dicate the.p.resens... .
the same force as this. The Right Honourable Baronet reet
lifter speaking of the disunkins which
had prevail ••
between the
'Whigs and the Irish Members, he the
new Parliament, and the first question pressed upon, his
proceeded to say that with the Whigs they now entered into notice was the English Corporations, and the necessity for
1 a close alliance, and that seeing this, they were forced into a Pl"cing them under a system of popular controul.-(Cries of
compact alliance and indissoluble junction.-( Hdar, hear, from " No, no.") If his memory filled him not, the first question
' Colonel Perceval, and cheers from the Opposition Members.) raised was an amendment to the address, with a view to plae-
Then they did provoke him to the reading of the preceding ing the Corporations of England on a popular• footing—.
hear. ) That amendment was carried by a consider-.
passage, and he should gratify them. He stated that they be- ( ilea'',
held with indignation the persons who were placed in the able majority, and after two or three months vain conflict with
the majority of the House of Commons, time Right Honour-.
Privy Council ; that Lord Roden was marked out for an office
It might
Honourable
esaßid that the majo-
near the person of the King, and there were the grand tree- able Baronet resigned.
surer mind other officers of the Orange Lodges appointed. rity which turned the Right
daronet out of office,
'then that which he called a compact alliance and indissoluble was a small one; but had
ait,lsoiinieciel
and
dcrease a On the other
junction they insisted was a compact.-( Hear from the Oppo- hand, had it not rather
Che : strengtheneduaderh on 'each
shier% Members.) He did not think so ; but then they ought succeeding occasioinic.-R
-(Cheers.)
eHrso.n)ourable Baronettese carcum-
v,hat his
to recollect that he was an " alien in language."-( Hear, hear, stances, he asked
the
what hopes could h
and loud cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Assuredly, paospects
were
which -.had already edrre.sur.le office in
looking at Hon. Members opposite, he would say that there time face of t
fpower Parliament (Hear, hear.) Or iv.en him from was no compact amongst them, although there was a compact the seat 0 - waold. the Right
allthis dilemma by
Hon. Baronet avoid
junction.-( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) They said at once
r nt without facing them, and ' again dissolving-
then, that there had been a misrepresentation of his words. Pa- Parliament
Commons which he had been the instrument
the very
There was no bargain-he appealed to their common sense House
together ? He begged the the instrument of ef.,11-
upon this, that them was no compact ; and lie trusted
ing
gd to'nesider what was the state Right Hon. Baronet to pause
upon this subject that no man would resort to miserable
e and
England.ee He asked the R. of the feelings of the Ifreopic
eattedletits.-( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) If they asked of'
I ld, the feel' te ight Hen. Baronet whestber, Ira
him had there been a junction, he would at once answer that 1 lus
(ne'weel tborea, !legs of the people of Ray'-
g,an were
ever rails A higher
.pitch of sympathy than thre were now
there WLIS-a fair, open, and honourable one.-( Cheers from
the Opposition Members.) They did support those whom eOttmee presentboquhestion ?-( Hear, hear, and oh, oh 1 front
most determined iar)asietdioni,th. e tbc es. ) If you deny-(coatindthe Hon.
they bad opposed, and lie was one of their
tame
and Lie
they con-,that this feeling existesetrengst tie ,
opponetits-they did oppose the Whigs, as long asl
' f E I 'in
er)
sidered they were actiug hostilely to the interests of Ireland; pLop e o ng and, do you deny this, that t.iire glade similar
• t were allegations before--( Hear, hear)-that you (strained the 1 ,re_
but the moment the • Whigs adopted principles that
favourable to Ireland that moment their opposition sased. rogatives of time Crotvn to dissolve the former Parliament
,*and
The moment that the Church Commission was issued and• that all the efforts of your incendiary eloquence were tr Aad iii
acted upon, and that the Whigs of 1824, Lord John Russell, vain in bringing together that which was totsucceed it Sir Jobe Hobhouse, and others, took a prominent part in the that Parliament you were discoinfitted ?-( Cheers.) 1 , for in
will

i'~~.