The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-02 00:00:00

street principle laid down in the other Bill.—(ll,T'Bbielia.r.
The Noble Lord then moved for leave to bring in
n"
The question having been put from the their,
fusion neca"
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, but on
Noble
bsieonneehdesblyeavaing7eethate
Hniolumsbee,rproefveAnlteemabheisreproonceteldicinOibfioprossiotlirl
minutes. Wh'en order had been at length restored,
—Lolrdtoporkocoececdaesidonto,
sadird,rebsesfothree
mHyouNseobilnetlFieriefonldlocwoinint e:teetr;e:di.
to propose to him that he should have an opportunity!
oit
,nito
subjectwas theto NcVhholeichetoi
thought fit, to bring in any Bill he might have prepared
rrpr.odi
It
posal. I find no fault with him for taking that course, but
think, certainly, I am at liberty to draw this inference from
the course he has taken, that it is no other than undenere _ of
mslYee NcohblheeFhriaesndjunsott e
to"ea clucde epc trheafet.
they name, a course of opposition to the second r masnif_ti
this Bill.—(Loud cheers.) If my Noble Friend had eked
to introduce a Bill upon this subject, it was in his petcet.in
have done so, either at some time before the measure
Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland was introduced, ?`
after the motion for its introduction had been made, or
isr
some subsequent stage of the measure.—(Hear.) It
emir
therefore, on the principle of our Bill, to which he cannot
0.
Friend
sent, that my Noble Friend tests the issue of ofhis quest!o
—( Hear, hear.) lam glad to find that my Noble•
does not deny that this is the real question before the Honseeal
I am glad to find that he does not deny that the re
question is, whether the principle of this Bill shall n
s ill-
not be adopted.—( Loud cheers.) Now, Sir, lam as v.v
ing as my Noble Friend to appeal to the reason and mon 1-
tion of the people of England upon this subject. It is teethe,
reason and moderation of the people of England that I aPP!ea.„
—not on the details, not on the regulations, but on the rut
ciple on which this Bill is founded.—(Cheers.) Sir, althougu
my Noble Friend, at the commencement of his speech, all" ,
pealed to the reason and moderation of the people 0f
to
land, I cannot forget that he afterwards appealed from them
the feelings of this House, as a House of gentlemen. I 11°Fei
Sir, that it is a House of gentlemen, but I always thought
was something else beside ; I hope it is a House representin it
fi
popular feelings and popular interests.— (Cheers.) I her,
'
is a House representing (as it is the duty of Members of tn
House to do), not particular and local bodies of men, but rei
presenting, as Mr. Burke stated he considered himself bounty
to do, the whole people of this empire, including among the„
that outlawed portion of the people—the six millions of Tre
man Catholics in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Sir, my N°ee
Friend, in the whole course of his speech, although he
verted to all the considerations, or very nearly all till
considerations, connected with this Bill, totally ornate
one most important consideration, namely, the On:
sideration and concern which this House ought to Pa;
to the interests of three-fourths of the people of Ire;
land.—(Cheers.) My Noble Friend told us that w
ought not to overlook the interests of the children of doll;
men, and that it was a painful reflection for a clergyman tba
he could not leave to his children a competence after b:
death. Undoubtedly this is a very painful situation. But
did not occur to my Noble Friend, or if it did not occur to
him, I hope it will to Hon. Members of this House—did Ann'
occur to my Noble Friend that there are others, not in tiee
situation of clergymen, that there are the Roman Cath°'l" •
people of Ireland, who, too, have to consider what is due tered
their children and their families, and who may be permitbe
to ask, when this score of 400,0001. is levied, what is the
benefit which they arc to derive from the expenditure of tll
money ?—( Hear, hear.) Sir, I say at once—for it is as Wed
that I should as early as possible place this Bill on the grout°, ,
on which I think it ought to stand—that our notion 01 e
Church Establishment is, that it is not intended for the Prr
pagation of any offspring, but for the instruction of the peoPler;
—(Great cheering.) In the course of the last century tile': ;
were eminent men who wrote and discoursed upon the prinel;
ples and the grounds on which the State ought to suPP3rteer
Church Establishment. lam not going to fatigue the H°l6
with any quotations from their writings ; when I mention s
names of Warburton and Paley, every man will knowlll.
degree of weight is to be attached to their authority. lutie
doctrines differed very widely from each other. It was ,;`,,•
opinion of Warburton that the Church was naturally and enirt;
cally the ally of the State ; it was held by Paley to be a come
perversion of the intention of a Church Establishment to 0' n°
sider it as the ally of the State at all ; but both these* mei;
both able and enlightened men, and fully competent to graPPd
with the subject of which they wrote, both understood n°,,a
both maintained that by a Church is meant the Church of t",,
majority of the people. This was the understanding °lf
which those able and learned men wrote upon the Chure%
and this was the principle on which they considered that tnt
Church ought to be supported. I do not mean to say td;
this doctrine ever can be carried to its full extent in Irela°
it is not my intention even to propose to carry it to the extetii
to which they did; but this I maintain, and this I ever slinia
maintain, that the interests of the great body of the PenFbe
ought not to be overlooked; and that when you talk of t
duty of a State, the duty of a State is not to choose and sett:
leo. that doctrine which the Leeislature or the supreme 11
~,
thority may consider to be founded in truth, but to endeayn"d
n
to secure the means by which they can inculcate religion
morality among the great body of the people.—( Loud cheer,
ing.) If we were to maintain any other opinion, or to fon;
a Church upon any other doctrine, we should be extending 1",,
Hindostan the Cler of the established Church of Englan
and spreading throughout our dominions—among the Rome':
Catholics of Canada and the members of the various
persuasions to be found in our numerous possessions in dine;
rent parts of the globe—the form of the Church of Englan"j
and insisting on their conformity to that faith__(Cheers'
It is impossible that we can maintain any such Pro;
position; if we did so, our Church, which is so useful in tw,
country, which serves so many high and stable purpose:"
would become in those places merely a nest of sinecue. 11;
and while you took care that there were clergymen 'fich
sufficient revenues, you would be totally neglecting that wi)10
it is the business of the State to provide—namely, that .'ne
great body of the people shall have the means of receilof
religious and moral instruction. Now, Sir, both the B'lfer
last year, and that which my Noble Friend the Secretarylreland has introduced this year, proceed upon the priiieliP,
that while you preserve to the Protestant Church of Ire,;:,
whateter is necessary for the spiritual instruction of the
testants, yet that any surplus which can be derived froinroc,
revenues shall be applied to the religious and moral
tion of the great majority of the people.—( Cheers.) ma.
meaning of this is, that you shall not consider the great did
jority of the people, as my Noble Friend ( Lord StanleY)tbat
throughout his speech, as mere blanks in the empire, but cote
you shall provide them, not with a Church Establishmtioo
according to their own faith, but with a system of editeca.eod
which you can fairly give, and which, as my Noble rod
( Lord Morpeth) declares, Parliament is ready to atruru' teat
to endow, if necessary, with the sum of 20,000/. a year---e,ne:
you shall give this education to the great body of the lielftajl
that you shall make it a part of your duty, and that you '_eat,
consider it part and parcel of your ecclesiastical establisbn'tical
This I think is the broad and general view of ecclesitr r of
purposes. This is the view which takes in a vast nutrin.emeo''
people, who, if you confine yourselves to my Noble Feleoeot
(Lord Stanley's) proposition, can never derive anY 13.,e0
whatever from the distribution of those funds, and w"
m ag
!g
reason of their not deriving any benefit from them, twee t re'..
respects the State, duly furnished with the means of terd
.•••••'
ligious and moral instruction which it is bound to sineideoC,
pCheers.) Having thus stated what I consider to be the 'pre'
rinciple of this Bill, I think it follows that I shall not hesoble
pared to withdraw it in favour of the proposition of n'yte
Friend opposite.—(Loud cheers.) I will not imita ;000
Noble Friend's example. He has made it matter of rePcieieli!
to us that we have altered and conceded some of the Pr°rooo
of last year. I will not undervalue, far less will I I'ft:it. tbe-
or taunt him with any proposition he has now made 13-0 044
reform of the Church of Ireland, to which he which cod
not disposed to accede last year ; on the contrary, I val'il:ty be
highly any proposition coming from him with the autho;neet, •
is empowered to give it. He will permit me to say, I°)d lea°
that these propositions leave altogether out of sight, an We
altogether untouched, that great principle which We.eiefor
maintained—that great principle on which I had thVotecet:
tune to differ from my Noble Friend when we were /declare'
together—that great principle on which the House
ow fen;
its solemn opinion last year.—( Loud cheers.) I will Ile or 01.0
ture to state, before I proceed to other questions, orcle, vne
points on which 1 think my Noble Friend has nineee of etbee
not say an unfair, but I cannot think a politic, use
rover
alterations in our present Bill. It was one of the rePeerti ° •
which was cast upon our Bill of last year, that the Pr°,least'
the Church—the collection and disposition of it, coin
mc-
was altogether transferred into the hands of
jje
sioners of Land Revenue. It certainly appears fr° ,t to t. b
ports of what passed in the House of Lords in
Braret egliotti
subject, that this was one of the parts of the
they refused their consent, on the ground that it le Lori,
Lorci,
tion of principle. I know it was stated by one Nona olen1,;:
have no objection to state his name—l mean lAr.„joiolle
rough—that it might be expedient to give the Correic
of Land Revenue the power of collecting this in ° b
time, but that he thought that after a time the princlgileet;ge;,ll4
prevail, and the collection of the revenue go to tire feoust;o:
whom, in his opinion, and in that of a majority ut.T_ eoints ,e
Lords, it ought properly to rest. This is one of tnoeteeing,
which, feeling that we conceded no principle in so, Sonolf
made a concession ; and it is one of the objects
e"'olvesien;Olciej,
Friend opposite to attack that concession and that p.
the Bill, and to subject us to reproach, because eve
elleavoem.' oPP.,°(, •
to what we thought in the conscientious opinio!l lef the 13lciit.,
nents, was one of the great obstacles to the nrrinlid9e seeres,'
—( Hear, hear.) A great part of my Nobl reeasntee
was taken up in pointing out the faults of forrenon.
but a very small portion was occupied in po! jv .I'ej!
faults of the particular measure introduced IV devot. e,
Friend (Lord Morpeth). A considerable portion vr7s'ent arai;
to a detail of the inconveniences which
where there is a very small income, a lar
great number of parishes (which is undo
r. emeilwieb,
fault of the present system), and a great nag for "
for the Cifiear
in showing the inadequacy of the fund proy
ow _
_roe
temporalities. Why, that is a fault of his ti
vie have
hear.) My Noble Friend attacked the scroll. adequlbienrae.
posed, which I think a very adequate cetio
_Lts raore .1, go-
should say, for the purpose ; but at all
near
(Sl'f3irlf
than that which the Bight Hon. Baronett r
rnigell„t prin'
Bert Peel) stated last year, as the one which
effect t"'",se rof
have adopted, if we had wished knowyo:
for
what Ptitrestio.l
ciple of our Bill.—( Hear.) I n geuPba°tteP.d"Pilyatioenne' af,:reee4dS
something better than the Bill before
were take° Ities 11 •
tbe.'
that even if a moderate scale of income
on
the ,e,
Noble Friend opposite stated it, if it
twbocreuonnostents bsoui!`"sa3f6l;
cient for the clergymen, he would shlrt,s
not rod° t the Pr°l7
Well, Sir, we have taken a scale which enene,s
no, roY pile
could quote, that sufficient provision N
fo:eosen;
position of the Right Hon. Baronet a t
first lace: tqy
p . •
Noble Lord, after attacking, in the
tFi'ercie._nd(tiellelsarr,
bietairs.
)objelcttiohninakbleit biost
rather, tou .e. p