The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-14 00:00:00

REFOIINI BILL.

On the moticn of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, the Order of the D,ty for the H°u-e r,solv
ir:z itself into a Committee of the whole linue on thi,
13ill was read. . _ .

Mr. CROKER would take that opportunity of pi ttit4
a question to the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had state('
that by consent of its noble proprietor, the bormigh of
Downton was to be taken from schedule B, and to be in
serted in schedule A. This change of arrangement, it
appeared, had been fietemined on in consequence of a.
communication which another Noble Lord had trim-
witted to the Noble Paymaster of the Forces. Nov,
he (Mr. Croker) hail formerly moved for returns of all
the correspondence received by Government in refe-
rence to these schedules, and they had been accorilino
laid upon the table of the House; but the communica-
tion in question, he found, had neither been mentione,
nor alluded to in the returns so furnished. He wished
therefore, to be informed, first, what was the date of that
communication ; and next, whether it was in writing or
merely verbal ?

Lord J. RUSSELL had not caused the communicatiot •
elluded to to be laid before the House, because it was ;1
private and personal note from Lord Grenville.—(Hear.,
With respect to the authority on which Government hat
acted, he might add, that subsequent to- the introduction
of the Bill, he had met the Noble Proprietor of the bo-
rough, who informed him in the lobby that he had Brea'
doubts whether the population of I)ownto❑ was really of
the amount at which it had been estimated.
After a few words from Sir E. Sunuex, which did
not reach the gallery,
Sir R. PEEL observed, that one point of importance
had arisen out of the discussion of last night, to which he
wished to invite the attention of the Noble Lord and o:
His Majesty's Government in general. The House, it was
true, had decided against hearing- counsel in support of tie
allegations embodied in the petition frem the berough of
pplel-y, bat it appeared to him that that decision mule
not be understood as peremptory against receiving evi-
dence i❑ support of that petition. Ile would put it to
the Noble Lord whether it was not very possible that Ap-
pleby, Askbourne, or Wareham, for example, rui,sht peti-
tion for the purpose of being permitted to prove
bona fide that they were really entitled to their present
franchise no the principle laid down by Ministers them-
selves, and rot with the dishonest design of unfairly inn
peeling, obstructing-, or defecting the Reform Bill.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) If any case should b
proposed for re-consideration where mere vexatious del..
was evidently the object sought, then surely it was op r.
for the msjority summarily to reject the proposltion ; hu
he could see no just reason why they should shut the doo
indiscriminately on every complaint of grievance on th,
assumption that it must necessarily have originated in fee-
tioul and improper motives.—(Hear, hear.) Anothe,
difficulty in connection with this subject also present,
itself to his mind, and he would take that opportunity,
very briefly to explain its nature, in the hope that the
Noble Lord might be induced to remove it, the rather, as
the objection would still hold whether he were disposed
to recognize the principle or not. Conadseioners,
appeared, were to be appointed for the purpose oi
dividing the counties, with a view to carry into
effect the provisions of the Bill ; and, pursuant to
their report, the House of Ommums hereafter would
be in some degree re-modelled. This report, then,
must, of course, have a very material bearing on the ques-
tion itself; fur certain counties, according to the principle
of the measure, were henceforward to be allowed four re-
presentative., and the distribution of these representative-
would entirely depend on the decision of the Commissioners.
Now, if he could be informed by what principle the Corm
missioners thus appointed were to be guided hi such divi-
sion*, it would in a great degree simplify the subject, so a-
n, enable him more distinctly to understand it, and, there-
fore, disemberrass him of the diffictfty which he could not
at present satisfactorily get over. He \less the more desi-
rous of idol-math:la, as a Noble Lord, favourable to the
principlesof the Bill, had given a notice of motion, to the
effect that such counties, instead of Icing divided into
two separate districts, should remain undivided, and, as a
whole, return their four representatives. In the case of
Warwickshire, for instance, it was highly important to
know whether Birmingham and Coventry were to be in•
eluded in one division, as every Hon. Member must see
that the landed interest would necessarily be materially in-
fluenced by an arrangement which might give the free-
men of those places a double franchise. lie mentioned
this one instance merely in order to illustrate the nature
of his objection.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet's question, whether Ministers would empower the
Committee to receive evidence, should only observe, that
he saw no great probability that a c se would occur in
which such a necessity might exist. It; however, there
were a probability that any case of this description would
present itself, it was nevertheless not requisite for the
House to instruct the Committee as the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet desired ; for should it appear in the Committee that
any particular case did deserve a separate reconsideration,
it would be easy for the House to resume, in order that the
Committee might apply for power to receive evidence on
the subject, if necessary.—(Cries of " Hear" from the
Opposition.) As fur the division of counties, that hap-
pened to be a part so essential to the Bill itself, that he
could not then possibly give a satisfactory answer to the
Right Hon. Baronet; hut he might state, that it appeared
to Government the most judicious course not to act in a
matter of such delicacy and importence, without leaving
it first to the arbitration of efficient and well-selected Com-
missioners, appointed for that purpose alone. There had
certainly been complaints against the appointment of a
body to whom it was proposed to delegate such authority;
but he trusted, that when the names of the Commissioners
became public, it would sufficiently appear that they sveme
all of them entitled to respect, for their knowledge, their
capacity, and personal weight, both in that House and
with the country at large. The Right Hon. Baronet's ob-
jection, as far it went, in fact applied to the whole Bill,
and he feared, therefore, that it would not be in his power
to alter or remove it. Had Ministers pursued any other
course than that which they had adopted, they would in
effect have involved the House in a tedious and protracted
debate about the respective merits of particular divisions,
and he thought it better on that account to leave the mat-
ter wholly to the Commissioners, who, it was to be hoped,
would dispose of it in a sufficiently impartial manner to he
satisfactory to all parties.
Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, had never expressed any
suspicion of the partiality, of the Commissioners, but
merely complained that it was a little hard to call upon
hint to decide up,sn the division of counties without being
informed on what principle that division was to be ar-
ranged.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL could explain to the Right Hon.
Baronet how Government wisher! the Commissioners to
act with respect to one or two counties—such as Stafford
or Warwick, although it was not in his power to supply
him with any further specific information upon the subject.
Sir C. WETHERELL expressed his apprehensions that
the divisions might be so managed as to cause the com-
mercial interest unduly to preponderate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that further discussion of such
a point on that occasion was irregular and irrelevant.
Mr. EWART made one or two remarks which were
inaudible.

Sir E. SUGDEN was understood to recommend that
ev.dence in the cases of certain complainant beroughs
might be referred to the Commissioners.
Mr. C. W. WYNN exclaimed that a more arbitrary or
absolute power had never been delegated to any body of
• men, and insisted that the House should lay down some
fixed and properly-defined principle by which the Commis-
sioners would he guided in its exercise. At present the
House was ignorant whether the principle was to he geo-
graphical, or to relate to the number of large towns, the
number of voters, or the amount of popularion.—(Hear.)
This he conceived was one of the most material objections
to the Bill, and he hoped that Ministers, when the Com-
mittee came to that clause, would he prepared to state the
principle on which their Commissioners were to act.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that the subject was one of extreme difficuity, and assures'
Hon. Members that Ministers were quite wihing to attend
to any practical suggestion for improving the arrangement.
As the House, however, bad approved of the principle of
the Bill generally, they could not consent to any alteration
of this part of the plan, unless some better mode of ar-
rangement could be substituted.—( Hear. )
Mr. C. PELHAM offered an observation which could
not be heard.
Ott the question " That the Speaker do leave the chair,"
Captain GORDON rose " to resume his position of
last night," and endeavour-0 to persuade the House that
neither he, nor those who acted with him, had been in-
fluenced by factious motives ill pressing fur an adjourn-
ment. . After discussing the principle of the Reform Bill
at some length, the Hon. Member proceeded to eulogize
the existir.g system of representation, which when freed
from the filth and falsehood of radical virulence and a re-

.-olutiouity Press, would he found to contain the only
trte!y conservative principle mileulated to maintain our
,ppy institutions unimpaired. The Bill was the off-
toring of rsdie II petitions and blind el onour, and many of
hose who supported it did so with a view to the attain-
ment of a more sweeping Reform. All that was diseased,
ofected, and corrupt in the community, was in favour of
.he measure—(Laughter from the Treasury benches)_..
he object being ultimately to overturn our venerated in-
titutioes. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to institute
t comparison between the revolutionary feeling existing
n this country in 1791 and at the present time; ascrib-
ng the excitement at either period to the revolutions in
'ranee. He spok • in terms of commendation of the
erong measures (su 'h as the suspension of the habeas
Corp's A,•-) adopted by a firm Minister and a Con-
; itutional King, with a view to repress the revo.
utioeary feeling in 1791. He could have wished
hat that example had been followed now, instead
Mioisters weakly complying with popular ela-
nottr. He observed, that at the present moment
-lie delegates of a national union were meeting in
'.ondon.—(No, no.) Did Hon. Members mean to deny
eis ?—(Yes.) Ile asserted that it was the fact—that
hose delegate..., were now sitting.-- -(No, no ; where ?
vhete ?) Gentlemen asked where, he replied in Oxford--
nat ket ; that, he believed, was what they called the place.
--(Cries of "Oh ! no, no," anl laughter.) He was
bliged to the. Hon. Member for Preston, fur the exprms-
cii of his dissent front the proposition, because it re-
labeled him th it these delegates had passed a vote of
hanks to the Hon. Gentleman, who now most ungrate-
st eared disposed to question their existence. the
ton. Member proceeded to read from a printed paper an
scent of the proceedings of a body, denominated " The
N'ational Union of the working classes and others"—(oh,
h !)—and contended that his assertion was fully sustained
ty it —(No, no.) He had spoken of the delegates of a
'ational Union, for the purpose of making out the simi-
ttreity of the occurrences of the present period to the events
.11791, when the Cifresponding Society was in existence
old full operation. The constitution of the society in
question began o ith a declaration of the tights of man,
and terminated with a vote of thanks to Mr. Hunt ; he
tvas mistaken as to the latter particular—that had occurred
at Manchester—(Oh, oh)—but he rather thought the
Gen leman had also beer, thanked by the London
lelegates. He believed he hail now established his position
Oh, oh," and cries of " No.") He had only as-
-.old the existence and locality of the society—he did
not pretend to go into its character.—(Oh, oh.) He
,ad seen statements of hundreds of delegate, coming up
et London, from rations parts of the country, fur ti e
purpose of obtaining information, and being put in the
vay of approaching the House. lie found that their sys-
anti of of ttion extended throughout every part of the
mint it e. It existed in Glasgow, where the people were
orovided with black flags, in readiness to march up to the
uetropolis if the Lords should reject the Bill. Telegraph'c
:ignels had been estildtshed alone the roads, and there was
?very where evidence of combination. In Birmingham,
the people boaste t of being able to turn out, at a few days'
notice, two armies as large as fought at Waterloo, every
nan of which should be armed with a musket and bayonet.
Viewing the character of the measure with reereoce to
he time at which it was brought forward, when a revo-
!utionary spirt was abroad, be deprecated the Bill the
none strongly, because he considered it c deulated to divest
he House of a power which it had hitherto possessed and
-xereiscd with advantage—the power of moderating and
,pea-sing xecssive manif stations of popular feeling.
Co'oriel LINDSAY compl tined of the extraordinary
haste with which Government had pressed forward a mea-
sure so important to the best interests of the country.—
(" Oh, oh," and laughter.) lie defended the existence of
lose boroughs on the ground of their forming one of the
tiost ancient parts of our r. presentative system.
Mr. C. WYNN movvd that the several petitions re-
'ating to the details of the Bill be referred to the Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had no ohjection to that motion.
It was put and agreed to.
On the question being again put, that the Speaker do
leave the chair,

Mr. HUNT lied no wish to delay the House from go.
mg into the Committee, but he felt called upon to say a
ew mods after the observations of the Hon. Member far
Dundalk. lie denied that there was any similarity be-
tween the National Union of Trades and the Correspond-
!rig Society of 1793 and 1791. There was a National
Union of Trades, and of these some four or five delegates
(tame up from different parts of the country with petitions
which had been presented to the House; and if any of
them attended at the meeting of the London Union, it was
not from any connexion with them, for tl ere was no car-
r'spondence kept up between them. lie admitted that he
was a radical Reformer, bur in being so he considered him-
-elf and those with whom he was connectil, as far as he
knew them, as loyal as any Members of that House,
,ehether Reformers or otherwise. The Honourable
Member then went on to contend that Ministers were
not influenced by the petitions for annual Parliaments,
universal suffrage, and vote by ballot, for they had intro-
{uced none of these into their Bill. But there was no-
riling in these inconsistent with the ancient principles
it nor Constitution. They were, except the ballot, the
same which the great Duke of Richmond had introduced
in his Bill into the House of Lords, but the Noble Duke
forgot them when he was Master-General of ae Ordnance.
He next contended, that nineteen out of twenty of the
people in the country bad supported the Bill, not for the
empty name of liberty, lent from the hope and belief that
they would be relieved ley it from the burthens of t,xation ;
and he would defy any Government to be able to go on af-
ter this NI passed, unless the people were relieved. Ad-
verting to the cry raised for " the Bill, the whole Bill, anti
nothing but the Bill,'' he obset vett that there were parts of
it now which no persons not in the secret of Ministers
could unders'and. He hid no fears as to the consequences
of the rejection of the Bill; but lie had hear—and was
not afraid to state what he heard—that if it should be re-
jected, there would be a refusal to pay taxes in the country.
There was no excitement among the people now in the
emmtry—tleey were calmly discussing the measure, to
which he admit'ed they were still warmly attached.
The question was then put and carried, and the
SPIA XER, leaving left the Chair, the House went into the
Commit tee.

In answer to a question front Mr. CaoKeit, it was
stated, that the preamble had been postponed, and the
Chairman then proceded to read the first clause, which
is in the following words :—" Be it the, efore enacted, by
the King's Mo.t Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice
of the Lords Spiritual and TempFral, and Commons, in
this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of
the sane, that each of the Boroughs enumerated in Sche-
dule A, to this Act annexed, shall cease after the end of
this prcsent Parliament to return any Members or Member
to serve i❑ Parlimiet.t."

Mr. C. WYNN hugged to draw attention to the great
hiportance of this, the fast clause of the Bill. He had
• several objections to it, which he thought possessed some
weight, and the fist was to the form of words in which
it commenced.—(hear.) No reason was stated for the
disfranchisement of these boroughs, nor no cause shown
why the should he selected from the other boroughs of
the kingeoln.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord who introduced
the Bill iota that House bad informed them, that the objec-
tions to the present system were not founded on any hos-
t:li y to the ancient form of representation, but on the lac',
that the great and populous towns and cities, which had
grown into importance since the first summoning of Mem-
bers of P rliatnent, were not entithl to participate
in the tight of electing their representatives, and could not
iu consequence of the Union with Scotland, be called on
by the Royal sumtnonses to do so. If that Union had
not taken pace, he was fully prepared to contend that
such sumitioases might have ;soled ; and he had voted
against the giving represent 'lives to three of the large
towns last si sqon, not li,icause lie disapproved of the mo-
tion, or was opposed to the principle, but because they
woull by that means have added additional Members to
that House when the number was already positively limited
aiidii,,b
declared.ners, Ti R e ios.. had, however, come to a deter-
mination now, that the representative system must un-
dergo a great alteration, and it was now become their duty
to consider, if the large towns were to be permitted to re..
turn n
tt
ho
oh: (1%1
et ded
b ers theyti
lerlg
inconvenienth couldt make
increase
without any
smorsotoom for
nunthers of the llouse.—(lkar.) The Noble Lord pro-
pose,' 15 do this in the Bill by taking away the franchise
front the boroughs enumerat•-d in the clause. But how
did be do it? The clause merely stated that each of the
boning, there enumerated shall cease to send.—(Hear.)
Not aword about the I eason why they cease to Bend.—
( H
ear.) Surely it should, at least, say, because they do
not come within the rule of possessing 2,000 inhabitants.
Now this brought him to the question connected with the
principle of this clause ; for, as far us he recollected, the
Noble Lord and his colleagues had ncvar fully explained to
(y.f hadper
stoankse taken
outt):
of
tinobienr oft ohu 1
electors
oas
s
tit:ltiieealvll:'l:clY7liet:e'vnrit'evlivtiiribttio'rebe select, d, or whether they felt they
must disfranchise elsewhere., and had selected all the smallest
boroughs to he sacrificed. It the Noble Lord was prepared
io say that 2,000 inhabitants were the smallest numbers in
which they could find a nucleus of three hundred 101. house-
holders fir the maintenance or their principle, then, he
would IA them why they did not take the population

the only
intain our
A the off-
I many of
he attain-
diseased,
favour of
,neher)—

eratedin-

institute

exibting

3; ascrib-

lutiona in
on of the
e Habeas
a Con-
he revo.

wished
instead
liar (la-

moment

ceting in
n to deny
'act—that
; where ?
Oxford
the place.

He was
le ex pres-

[‘;e it re-
a vote of

ungra'e-
ce. The
paper an
The
sustained
;vet; of a

the
simi-
the events
existence

society in

s of man,
hint ; he
loccurred
)ught the
e London

8 position

only 116.
did
oh.) He
,ming up
for tt
mt in the

their sys.
art of the
vie were
up to the
!legraphic
there was
mingharn,
ftew days'
00, every
bayonet.
rereece to

n a revo-

Bill the
I tfi direst

:eased and
iting and
feeling.

.aordinary
rd a tnea-
3untry,—
:imam. of
Ine of the

titiona re-
owmittee.
R said he

pecker do

from gn•
to my a
ember for
larity be-
,rrespond-
Nntional
delegates
petitions
if any of
Lon, it was

as no cor.
ed that he
rered him-
far as he
at House,
[onourable
stets were.

rliatnents,

had intro-
e was no-

principles
ballot, the
ntroduced
ithle Duke
Drdnance.
.nty of the
of for the
eliet that
taation ;
go on af-
red. Ad-
e Bill, and
re parts of
Ministers
isequences

—and Win
I uhl be re-
e country.

low in the

irasure, to
'ed.

, and the
t into the

it was
I, and the
Ise, which
nacted, by
the advice
nmons, in
ithority of
I in Sche-
the end of
r Member

the great

He had
ssed some
in which
cd for the

use shown

returns of the boroughs:now, rather than those of 1821.
(Cheers from the: Opposition.) He knew these returns
would not yet be 'made for eight or ten days ; but they had
already been published in all the country papers, and if a
circular had been sent round by the Secretary or State,
could have been easily procured much earlier. What, he
would ask, would he the consequence of their taking the
returns of 1821 ? Why, that many boroughs would be
permitted to retain the right of returning Members which
were not entitled to it, and many would be disfranchised
which possessed more than the number required by the
limit.—(Hear.) He had not looked into many of the
returns, hut he found by a very hasty glance, that if they
had legislated in this manner ten years sooner, and taken
in the same way the returns of IS I I, there were full
eleven boroughs which stow retain their Members, but
which then must have been deprived of them.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) To take, for instance, the borough
of Caine, so often alluded to in the course of these debates
Caine contained, in 1801, three thousand seven huutired
inhabitants ; and, in 1811, the number hal fallen to three
thousand five hundred and four. Now, if they had legis.
1 ited in 1821 on the returns of 1911. Caine would have
been disfranchised.—(Cheers.) How, too, where they
to know whether the population of Caine had not
sunk an much below the standard of 1811 now as it
was above it in 1821.—(Cheers.) It was said, how-
ever, that they must draw a line. Be it so, but he did
not see why that line was to be an arbitrary one.—(Hear,
hear. The Government had found the inconvenience of
this in more titan one case already. In the borough of St.
Germains, for instance, the returns gave 2,000 inhabi-
tants, but it was found that in the whole two thousand
there was scarcely one ten pound freeholder—(Hear, hear)
—and it has been found necessary, therefore, to include it
in the list of those to be disfranchised.—( Hear. ) He con-
fessed he was unable to comprehend the principle on which
the Government proceeded, when they took the number
of 2,000 inhabitante.-IHear. ) It was well known that
the population returns made no classification. It included
all the inhabitants, men, women, and children, and did
not even enumerate the adults.—(Hear ) It was well
known that in some of the boroughs great fluctuations
took place in the numbers of the population, in conse-
qnence of the particular trades or manufactures which
were carried on at different seasons. Suppose, for instance,
that in one of these boroughs there happened to be two
cotton manufactories. These manufactories would, perhaps,
employ each three or faur hundred children, who, of course
are included in the returns, as a part of the population,
although they ultimately confer no greater benefit on the
place than to help to swell the poor-rates. Well, the
number of these children probably bring the borough
within the rule of the Noble Lord, and it retains its Mem-
ber; but a week after the passing of the Bill, if one of the
toaster manufacturers happened to become a bankrupt, the
children he employed are sent home to their parents, the popu-
lation of the borough sinks below the line, and it continues
to send Members to Parliament, although it ought to have
been disfranchised. —(Cheers.) He thought, therefore,
that the Government, before it proceeded further, was
hound to send Parliamentary Commissioners to inquire
into the real numbers of the population, to ascertain what
number of 101. and of 201. householders were actually to
be found in the boroughs, and how far it was possible, by
combining the voters of different districts, to preserve the
ancient system of representation as much as possible un-
altered.—(Hear.) He knew well that there were many
boroughs, about the propriety of disfranchising which no
difference of opinion could exist.—(Hear.) But he knew
also that very great differences of opinion, even among
the most ardent Reformers, prevailed with respect to
others, and that there were some points on which no three
persons to whom he had spoken could agree.—(Hear.) He
thought, therefore, that until those points bad been settled,
and some means were taken, either through Commissions
or otherwise, to overcome the difficulties he had men-
tioned, it would be better to postpone the first and second
clauses, and proceed to the others. He begged at the
same time to say, that greet doubts were entertained
whether every place entitled to return Members should
not retain its original number of two, as it was most de-
sirable in the alterations to adhere as much as possible to
the known principles of the Constitution. Disposed
as be was to make a large and considerable addition to the
Members of the House, he thought it was the duty of the
House to ascertain how they could make room for them
by such alterations as would avoid any increase of their
numbers—for he thought the present Session had abun-
dammtly satisfied them that any further increase of their
numbers would be exceedingly inconvenient. He re-
peated his opinion that it would be better, it possible, to
unite the small boroughs than to disfranchise them, parti-
cularly-when they happened to be situate in important
agricultural districts. His Majesty's Government had in
some measure recognized the policy of this arrangement in
the Bill ; for it would be seen that several places, and
among others Greenwich, Woolwich, and Deptford, were
joined for the purposes of representation, although not
immediately connected with each other. To take as an
illustration of that which he suggested, he would merely
mention the very first borough in schedule A, Aldbo-
rough. Now that might be very well united with Or-
ford, as they were, indeed, he believed, within sight of
each other. These matters were, however, open for con-
sideration when they ascertained the number of Members
to be returned by the large towns for which they were
to find seats. At the present moment, and for the rea-
sons be had thus briefly and inadequately stated, be moved
that the consideration of the first and second clauses be
post poned.—( Hear, hear.)
On the question that the first clause be consequently
postponed,
Sir E. JGDEN thought the House had good reason
to complain hat the Government had not thought. proper
to enter into Any explanation of the alterations which they
had made in the present Bill ; for altered he contended it
was in many respects in reference to its most important
principles, and, he might cold, in almost all its details.
When that Bill was first introduced, it was pronounced
perfect, and they were told that they must not attempt to
improve it. Now, however, it was presented to them
again altered in all its parts, acid teaching a lesson which,
lie hoped, would be remembered, that the greatest talents
and learning could not, without the assistance of time,
and experience, and foresight, successfully meddle with
the Constitution handed down to them as the result of the
wisdom of ages. That Constitution had, he admitted,
many anomalies ; but these anomalies were to he defended
when .they werked well in conjunction with the other
parts. He would ask, however, in what manner the
framers of the new amended Constitution could defend
their anomalies ? How could they defend the selection of
101. householders, for the enjoyment of the elective fran-
chise, while they excluded those who p mid only 9/. 19s. ?
—( Hear, hear.) The Bill first proposed to the House cut
off sixty-two boroughs, in compliance, as the Govern-
with the demand of the great mass of the
ment declared,
people. Now, he should like to know, where was the
single individual—not to mention body of individuals—
who called on the Government to adopt any such course.
(Hear, hear.) He would tell them, however, that if 62
were cut off now, 100 might probably he cut off hereafter.
With such a precedent before them, a Parliament of Re-
formers would not pay much attention to the principles of
the Constitution, or to the rights of the electors ; and, a.
it was well known that all new bodies were uniformly
hostile to ancient institutions, they would witness , ere
long, the lamentable consequt noes of the course they now
proposed to adopt. The grounds on which they proceeded
were, however, carefully concealed, and posterity would
look in vain in the Bill for the reasons on which such im-
portant changes were supported. Ile implored the
House not to trifle with so great a subject as the represen-
tation of the people of England. His Majesty's Govern-
ment bad not only made changes in the Bill of the utmost
importance with reference to the various schedules,
but they had introduced a novel experiment—what he
might perhaps be allowed to call the triangle—in the
representation. There were to be three 'Members for
wine of the counties. As in some places where there were
now two Members, there was only by the Bill to be one
Member, so in other places where there were now two
Members, there were to be by the Bill three Members.
The inevitable consequence of this would be, that the con-
test at such elections would be carried on to the last mo-
ment, and that a great minority of the electors would lie
dissatisfied with the result.—(]lnch noise in the House.)
He really must claim his right to be attended to on a
question which involved the most valuable rights of every
man in the country, and of every man who would hence-
forward be born in it. It was a subject en which he felt
deeply ; but it was only as an Englishman that lie felt ;
for he bad not the slightest interest in the question. He
'did not care, personally, if he never enteted that House
again. His seat was attended only with pain and labour;
and lie would not have addressed them on time present oc
c ision if he had not felt that he had a sacred duty to perform.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY spoke to order ; observing,
that the noise at the bar was so great, in consequence of
the number of Ambers who crowded about it, that it was
exceedingly difficult to hear any Hon. Member who was
addressing the House.
Loud cries of " Places, places; Bar, bar, bar," followed;
and for a while the noise and confusion subsided.
Sir E. SUGDEN proceeded—He regretted to be com-
pelled to occupy the time of the House, by continuing to
call their attention to the changes which had been intro-
duced into the Bill by his Majesty's Ministers. He had
already adverted to the changes in the two measures, a‘

those changes respected the number of representatives foi
counties and for boroughs. He would now advert to the
qualifications of the electors. Those qualifications had
been altered exten,ively. Not only hal alterations been
made in the number of places which were to return
Members, but also in the qualifications a those by whom
Alembers were to be returned. Now, called upon as be
was, to make an alteration in the Constitution of a great

country—of the nature of which alteration it appeTired
that his Majesty's Ministers had changed their opinions—
how was he to judge of the comparative value of the twe
plans ; that which was at first, and that which was now
proposed? Inquiry into their respective merits was int-
practicab'e ; for the Eluuse were cob; that the people of
England pressed for a decision. The alterations were,
nevertheless, of great importance. Which plan was he ti•
prefer ? By the new Bill, for instince,.the county con-
stituency was considerably reduced. Now, this was a
most triqterial change; important as affecting agtieultund
interests—important as affecting the relation between
agriculture and commerce. Then, as to the borough con-

stituency, that hail been altered at least four times. How
could he he sure that, even with those alterations, it ha',
arrived at the point of perfection ? And yet the House were
told that this wss to hi a final measure.—(Hear.) Suppose,
instead of expressing any discontent, those who had op:
posed the first Bill had acquiesced in it, anti it had later)
adopted ; what would have been the case? In every
clause there would have been twenty loopholes. It would
have been impossible to execute the Bill. And with re-
spect to the present Bill, would his Majesty's Ministers
lay their hands on their hearts, and say that the proposed
Bill, if adopted, would come out of a Committee of the
reformed Parliament which would be created by it, with-
out extensive change ? He underatood that it had been
said that the clause in the new Bill to which he was about
to advert had been introduced by inadvertence. He would
not make any invidious observations on that assertion ; he
would merely read the provision in page seven of the Bill
to the Oause respecting the right of voting in boroughs.
It was as follows :—" Provided always, that no tenant
occupying such premises as aroresaid, at a yearly rent of
not less than ten pounds, shall, by reason thereof, acquire
a vote in the electicin for any city or borough, if such rent
shall be payable more frequently than once in every half
year." Now, no man could mistake the intention of his
Majesty's Government in that proviso. It was accu.
rately arid technically drawn up. So with the pro-
viso in page 12 ; namely—" Provided always, that no
tenant so occuping such premises as aforesaid at a yearly
rent of not less than ten pounds, within," &e. lee.
" shall by reason thereof acquire a vote in the election
for any of the said several boroughs, if such rent
shall be payable more frequently than once in every
half year." In this, he repeated, there could be no mis-
take with respect to the intentions of his Majesty's Go-
vernment. Those intentions were precisely described in
technical language. He would fearlessly declare, there-
fore, and he dared any refutation of the assertion, that it
was evident his Majesty's Government had found that in
the original Bill they had gone too far, and had adopted
this indirect way of softening and paring down the fran-
chi'e which they had created, so as to diminish the dangers
which they tie nselves apprehended from it—(Hear,
hear)—and undoubtedly his Majesty's Government were
right in the alteration ; not that he liked the clause as it
stood ; not that he admired the contrivacee of giving the
elective franchise in words, arid taking it away in sub-
stance. The mere love of change was, however, exempli-
fied in various parts of the Bill without the slightest ntsa
cessity. It appeared as if bis Majesty's Government
thought that the more changes they made the more they
should meet the demands of the country. There were the
changes reserving the rights of freemen while they lived,
and of children born before the passing of the Bill. By
the first Bill, even the rights of the constituents of the
Hon. Member for Preston were not saved. Almost
every clause on the subject had been altered in detail.
As regarded Wales, the Bill had been greatly altered by
shiftiug, carving, and cutting the right of representation.
The Bill respecting Scotland had been also much altered
as regarded the right of franchise. The alterations in the
Irish Bill were very extensive and important. Such being
the case, were there not sufficient grounds for pause
and reflection? But what were they called upon to do ?
At mice, without information, without inquiry, to alter
the entire - representation of all England, Scotland, and
Ireland.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was there ever a vaster
proposition submitted to the consideration of a Legislature?
Looking at Ireland alone, and considering the various
causes of serious alarm in that country, something more
w is surely necessiry than that it should ride on the shoul-
ders of the English Bill, and be carried as a sort of appen-
dix to it. As to Scotland, he would not say the repre-
sentation of that country was healthy ; but still, if the
alterations to be made in that representation were to be
the sole subjects of consideration, they would require much
deliberation and care. Then there was the change from
the first Bi il, in which the Privy Council were to settle
the bounktries of boroughs and parishes, to the second
Bill, in which it was proposed that that duty should de-
volve on Parliamentary Commissioners. To such a pro-
position he would never consent. He would raise his
voice to the uttertnost against it, that it might be known
that he would never agree thus to disqualify the Legis-
lature, and leave to any other body the power of altering
the representation of the people of England as to them
might seem good.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Parliamen-
tary Commissioners were to have this privilege, without
any precise rule having been laid down as to the man-
ner in which they were te exercise it. In that, and in
other points, those who sat on his side of the House were
treated as if they did not love their country; as if the
blessings which they enjoyed under its Constitution had
been thrown away upon them ; as if the rights of their
children were to them of no importance or value. But be
denied that they were open to any such suppositions.
With respect to the nomination boroughs, he was not,

abstractedly speaking, in love with than ; but he defended
them as the means of introducing into the Home men of
integrity and talent, who, although they sat for these
boroughs, felt that they were the representatives of the
whole country._( Hear.) To the way in which all those

. .
boroughs were to be swept away, without information or
inquiry, be could never accede. When, three months ago,
he had called the attention of his Mak.stv's Government
to the subject, the Noble Lord had said, .in effect, that if
they consented to the laying of information before the
House, there would be such a diversity of opinion, that
they would never come to a decision. But was a question
like this to be treated so lightly ? Not only was it an un-

parliamentary, but it was 'unconstitutional doctrine.—
What gentleman in private life would consent to extensive

alterations in his estate without having previously received
precise information will respect to the nature and merit
of the changes? How, therefore, could he (Sir E.
Sugden) be expected to concur in the propese I plan
of enfranchisement and disfranchisement, without know-
ing exactly beforehand its extent and character ?
It was true that some additional information had been
laid on tie table by his Majesty's Government, and
it well deserved the attention of the House. It was im-
possible to read a line of those documents without seeing
that they proceeded from persons who were strongly im-
hued with the principles of Reform. Considering also
that those persons were employed by his Majesty's Minis-
ters with a particular object, it was impossible to give their
statements full credence. Yet what did those statements
show ? In every particular, the information which they
communicated, proved that the Noble Author of the Bill
had proceeded upon false principles.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Again, therefore, he asked, had proper caution been used
on this subject ? In " a little month"—he believed hi a
fortnight—correct returns of the population would be
forthcoming. Was it to be endured that his Majesty's
Government should come and propose an extensive altera-
tion in the Constitution, founded on the defective returns
of 11121, when correct returns would be produced in 14 days.
It was clear that it was proposed by the Bill to disfr
chise man) places, which more correct information would
show ought not to be disfranchised. Would a Reformed
Parliament perpetuate such an arrangement ? They ‘A ould
laugh it to scorn, and would spe dily have a new Bill on
the subject. When be was in France last July, lie had
observed that he thanked God he could still talk of
Old England. He was apprehensive, however, that
young England, under the influence of this new
measure, might not afford her sorts so just a subject for
pride and exultation.—(hear, hear, hear.) One of the
most objectionable principles in the Bill was, that while the
rights of the existing potwallopers and of the children of
freemen born before the passing of the Bill were preserved,
the rights of the upper classes, as involved in the nomina-
tion boroughs, were utterly abandoned. Now he repeated
that, abstractedly, he teas not fond of the nomination 1)1-
'1)1'01E. But they worked well. He wished he could have
ill their advantages without the anomaly attendant upon
them. But he had always considered that it was one of
the greatest blessings of the constitution of that House, that
all classes of the people were represented in it. The nomina-
tion borough gave to the Aristocrcy—and by that term
he meant nut only rank, but wealth and intelligence—its
just share of Parliamentary influence. While that influence
remained, the other influences might be more safely dealt
with. But to destroy the nomination boroughs, and at the
same time to increase the power of the other interests, was
pregnant with danger. It was to destroy those checks
which were intended to guard against the encroachment of
any particular interest. The amount of the proposed qua-
lification of voters was in many cases so low, that if the

pe,aedl, the voice of the peop'e would ptedomioafe
n that House, and that the people themsdve, would
tot be represented in that HoUso, hut would a--
atally vote in it by delegation. ,Suppos', widiout add-
ng a single Member to the popular interest, they had
ulerely struck out the nomination boroughs, and suppos,
the eves, ion had been as it a as about to b • in France, ml
as it might soon be La this cotua'ry, with respect to the
hered t iry er .ge, in what sicuat on might they have
teen placed? With the present system of giving pledges
to their constituents, what might not occur? At present,
the pledges were to destroy the nominatien boroughs ; the
nett pledges might be to dcstroy the House of Peers ; and
,* some wore period the requisition for pledees might aim
at a higher mark.—( Hear. hear.) He marvelled much at
one sentiment in the gracious Speech delivered from the
[krone at the commencement of the pr sent session ; he
meant that in which his Majes,ty expressed his confidenc~
that in any measures which they mieht prepare for the ad.
justmeot of a Reform in the Representatien, they would
" carefully adhere to the acknowledged principles of the
Constitution, by which the prerogatives of the Crown, the
authmity of both ll,,uses of Parliament, and the tights and
libet ties of the people were equally secured.' Was that expres-
sion to he understod as a compliment to the Bill his Ma-
jesty's 31inisters had already prepared ? Was it to he un-
derstood as an intimation that the House was pledged to,
adopt (No, no.) Or did it mean that another
o
not pledged on the subject, should take
ib
e ,a thetv
e Bill.—(No,
body,—

arise that the measure should be consistent with " tl:e.
aeknowledged princip'es of the Constitution, by which the
prerogatives of the Crown, the authority of both Houses.
of Parliament,.and the rights and liberties of the people
a-ere equally secured ?" One of the most estimable points
in the Constitution was, he considered, its elasticity, which
under all circumstances allowed the poor man the right of
voting. In ancient times forty-five shillings, and now
forty shillings conferred this right of voting. The pro-
jectors, however, on the opposite side, would not let time
work—would not let is natural operations have their
course, but fancifully pulled down an edifice which they
never could rebuild. He declared that he would stre-
nuously support the motion of the Right Hon Member
for Montgomeryshire, while he reserved to himself the
right of speaking upon the details. lie felt that, under
all the circumstances, reasoning would be thrown away in
opposing the general motion—he would accordingly re-
serve himself for the details. The Hon. and Learned
Member resumed his scat amidst loud cheering.
Mr. STANLEY dissented from the proposition laid
before the Committee, and did not in his conscience think
the Hon. and Learned Member had, notwithstanding all
his labour and all his ingenuity, succeeded in making out
a case. The lion. and Learned Member had, in fact, de-
parted most widely from the subject which was really
before the House, so that a man who happened to have
been listening to the debate would have had great diffi-
culty to devise the subject which was actually under con-
sideration ; and if he had come to any conclusion, the
probable tine would be, that they were now debating the
principle of a Reform Bill—not that they were speaking
respecting a measure to which the assent of the House,
considering it as a whole, had been already given.—(Hear,
hear.) For himself, he was surprised to find that they
were at that moment in Committee, when be recollected
the proceedings of last night—when he remembered the
pertinacity—a pertinacity before unheard of in that House
—with which the Hon. Gentlemen. opposite plesseil for
an adjournment, not on account of tie lateness of the hour,
bat because that hour, though early, did not afford them the
ample space which they required for the display of their
oratory. And yet now, when they had a clear way,
when they had full liberty to enter into the question,
all their magnificent announcement, the grand note
of preparation, had shrunk into a murmur. The
lion. Member for Dundalk had very shot tly favoured
them with his long• promised oration ; and several
other gentlemen who had held out extensive threats of
speaking, had very much, he had no doubt, to the satisfac-
tion of the House, neglected to carry their menaces into
execution.—(Hear, hear.) Still, however, it appeared
that they were not exempt by getting into C ,nnittee
from the necessity of going into the whole principle of the
Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. and Learned Gentleman
first complained of the gracious Speech delivered by his
Majesty,. because it recommended a full and free discus-
sion of the principle of a plan of Reform which should be
consistent with the prerogatives of the Crown, the just
authority of both Houses of Parliament, and the rights
and liberties of the people. And, said the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, it is impossible that either his Ma-
jesty or his Administration could recommend this Bill, be-
cause it did neither one nor the other ; and if it do not,
it is a mere mockery to introduce it to the consideration of
the Hause. But that, he contended, was the question to
decide; and as to the charge of its being a mockery to
make- a general recommendation respecting a great ques-
tion, he begged, in reference to this assertion of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, to turn to the King's Speech of
1529, for the purpose of showing that a Government
might make such a general recommendation, having at the
same time, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ac-
cused them of having, its own Bill cut and dry, without
any mockery. If the Government had not their
Bill quite ready cut and dry when they suggested
the necessity of Reform, the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman himself would be the first to denounce them.
—(Hear.) He: would take the liberty of referring to
the King's Speech of 1829, and then the Hon. and

Learned Gentleman would find everything which he had
objected to in the recent Address from the Throne. The
Hon. Member then read an extract from his Majesty's
Speech in 1829, which referred to the state of Ireland, and
recommended Catholic emancipation in general terms,
providing that the prerogatives of the Crown, the privi-
leges of Parliament, and the rights of the Church, were
hell sacred. This, mutatis nwtandis, was precisely the
language of the Speech of the present day; and the Go-
vernment having that Speech cut and dry, only laid down
the principle on which their measure was founded, as the
present Ministry had recently done.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman also complained that all the
Hon. Members on that side of the House had come there
pledged to the measure ; and then, he said, that great
danger did, necessarily, result from this; inasmuch as the
Members who now came to thst House pledged against
nomination boroughs would next come pledged to vote
against the Peerage, and then against something farther.
when, God knew what might happen. This might be
natural language, and these might he the natural sentiments

of an Hon. Gentleman who did not wish that the voice of
the people should be predominant in that House; but such
language he would nut hold. Such sentiments be would
not entertain. He wished that that House should repro.

sent the opinions, but not the passions of the people.—
(Loud and long cheers from the Opposition.) And thus it
was he did not consider it extraordinary or reprehensible
that when the King had made an appeal to his people in a
constitutional way, his people, in answer to that appeal of
their Sovereign, should, before they returned their repre-
sentatives, take the liberty to ask them what were their
opinions on this great question.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had asserted that his Majesty's
Ministers had, in bringing forward this motion, no object
but the love of change—no desire but to pull down and
build up again. Now this might be a very good argu•
ment if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was arguing
against all change ; but now they had arrived at a stage
when it was not for them to discuss whether change was
necessary, that having been established. Therefore, when
he said they were only influenced by the love of changes,
he (Mr. Stanlay) asked him if he was prepared to say
there should be no change ? and if the country would say
there should be no change.—(Cheers.) On the contrary
the country had loudly declared there must be a change.
and that there must be an extensive change.—(Cheers.)
The late Ministry hai said there shall be no change;
and they were accordingly compelled to retire ; but
the present Administration had responded to the public
feelings, and said there shall be a change, and an ex-
tensive change; and they had laid before the public the
principle upon which they proposed to effect this change,
and this had been hailed with what he might fairly call
universal approbation.—(Cheers.) But, said the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, this is the third Bill which you
have brought forward, and of these each differs from the
other. But, he asked if there was any difference in the
principle and main features of the Bill ?—(Cheers.) He
challenged him to show how they had abandoned the prin-
ciple on which the House of Commons and the country
had said Reform ought to be entertained,—(Cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman said this Bill would make a
new Constitution, by effecting a great change in that
House; on the contrary, he contended it would bring back
the Constitution to what it ought to lie —(Cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Member also spoke of old Engl ind and
new France, and compared the two; but be asked if any
comparison between the countries could be fairly insti-

tutea ? A Constitution similar with the British Cons

tution was, it would appear, inapplicable to the feelings
and ha fits of France ; but what had this to do with Eng-
land?—.(Cheers.) We live, he said, in a.country under
the constitutional government of which we had been
brought up, and our love and reverence for it bad
" Grown with our growth, and strengthened with our strength."
—(Cheers.) Their object then was, to make the Govern-
ment proceed with an equal pace, pari passe, with the
ncreasing intelligence and the increasing power of Eng-
'and. It was well to speak of time's having given mel-
o►vness to the Constitution, but what if time had give',

it something more elan mellowneis?--(Hear, hear.)
What if time had diminished the reverence wherewith it
had been regarded from those who looked not to the theory
ut to the practice?_(Flear, hear.) Should they not
then, he asked, go along with him and restore the Consti-
tution its right and fit state?—(Hear.) The alteration
oc a few trifling details had, he contended, nothing to do
with the carrying of this great oiject into effect. They
h not departed in the slightest degree from the great
principl s and leading lea'nres of the Bill. The Hon.
Ind Learned Gentleman said the first principle on which

hey proceeded wa., tkit sixty-two boroughs s.,ould be cut
ff fr.in the representation, and now they had altered that
lumber of s:x,y-two, and had accordingly abandoned
. . .

their pledge touching " The Bill, the whole Bill, rued
nothing but the Bib" They had altered the number,
hecause it did nut accord with the principle which they
had laid down, and which was, not that a certain num-
her of boroughs should he disfranchised, but that all ho-
t tnighs below a certain fixed line of population, and there-
fore considered liable to imprope:t influence, should be
disfranchised.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentlem In then argued, that, in effecting any change,
they ought to have proceeded by, in the first instance,
enfranchising certain of the large towns, and that after-
wards they mialit find means to make vacancies for
them by disfranchising an equal number of places which
had of old enjnyed the privilege of representation. Was
this, then, the Hon. and Loaned a ntlemm's sense of
justice and morality, and regard to constitutional rights
and privileges, that upon the simple plea of convenience,
i given number of nomination boroughs were to be div-

ilanchi.ed, not for the sake of any delinquency, not for
any proof of guilt, but to make room for a certain num-
oier of large towns.---(Cheers.) This might be the Hoy,
limber's sense of justice, but it was not his.—(Hear.)
Nothing could be more arbitrary than a line of disfran-
chisement which was to be determined by a line of enfran-
chisement alone.—(Hear, hear.) Tke Hon. and Learned
Gentleman was much mistaken when be stated that the

treat recommendation of the Bill was not its opposition to
he nomination boroughs. From all that he had seen,

heard; and read, he was convinced the deep impression on
the intelligence and feeling of the country arose from the
fact, that while the great towns were unrepresented, there
were so many nomination boroughs. Therefore was it
that the disfranchisement of these boroughs did proper y

hold a prominent plate as the first clause; and there were.
'le strenuously maintained, no grounds for transferring it
to another part of the Bill. He looked upon this motion
as one tending only to delay the measure—(Loud cheers)—
which, however it might be delayed by such means,
would, at last, pass triutnphantly.—(Cheers.) Entertain-
ing as he did this opinion of the motion, he should give it
Iris decided opposition, and should vote for the clauses as
they stood at present—(Hear, hear.)
CROKER rose amidst loud expressions of im-
patience, which continued during a considerable portion of
_ _

he lust part of his speech. lie complained that the ob-

servations made by lion. and Right Hon. Gentlemen on
the other side of the House were nut addressed to the ar-
guments directed against the measure, but were personal
observations, which ought hardly to be introduced into
this or any other discussion. The Right Hon. Gentleman
who had just resumed his seat, had much indnlged in ob-
servations of this sort, but he would do that Right Hon.
Gentleman the favour to suppose (for the credit of his
taste) that he could not have heard the speech of the Hon.
Member for Dundalk, or he would not have alluded to it
!a so light., and, he must say, so unusual, a mode.—(llear,
and a laugh.) With respect to the speeches now delivered,
be must observe that this discussion had been, as it were,
prom;sed by the Noble Lord on the other side ; for it
should be remembered, that the, speech of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Boroughbridge was intended to be
delivered or. a previous occasion, but the Noble Lord hav-
ing consented to allow a debate upon the principle of the
Bill when the House were in Committee, its delivery was
postponed upon that express understanding..—(Hear.)
That was one mode of shortening the debate resorted to
on a former occasion. Another mode of shortening the
debate on the present occasion was, that the Ministers did
not answer.—(Hear and laughter.) They attempted thus
to stifle the discussion, and not being able to exert their in-
fluence upon the minority which, though smill in number,
was, he would venture to assert, great in power—(Hear)—
they contented themselves with silence. His Hon Friend
near him had alluded to the peculiar circumstances of Mem-
bers being pledged to vote for the Bill, the whole Bill,
and nothing but the Bill. Why, in spite of that cuckoo
rry, he would assert they could not fulfil their pledges, for
that every principle of the Bill had been altered from what
it was at first.—(Hear.) When the Noble Lord opposite
first brought it in, he said nothing about nomination bo-
roughs; he proposed only to disfranchise those small and
decayed boroughs of which, he said, a certain number ex-
isted, in the system. Now, however, the Noble Lord
proposed to disfranchise some of the nomin Alan boroughs,
but with a high degree of prudent policy he determined
not to disfranchise others. On a former occasion he (Mr.
Croker) had noticed this circumstance, and the Noble
Lord then answered him it was not the intention of Mi-

uisters to interfere with the rights of property or its fair or
proper influence. He rejoiced at that statement, for me-
lancholy, no doubt, woulii be the day when the House of
Russell was not sure of the return of some of its mem-

hers for the borough of Taeistock.—(llear, hear, and
laughter.). When the Bill was first proposed, lie said he
should take population as the principle on which he
should proceed ; and, adopting that as his standard. he
drew four lines of distinctions. By the first of these
he proposed to disfranchise all boroughs that had a
population of less than 2,000. By the second of these
lines, he marked out boroughs with a population of be-
tween 2,000 and 4,000, and to these he said he should
give one Member. In the third class were to be included
all boroughs with a population of more than 4,000 and
less than 10,000, and these boroughs were to have two
Members. In the limits of the fourth line were included
new places with a population of more than 10,000 and
less than 20,000, and to these one Member was to be
given.,..: All above 20,000 were to have two Members.
These principles were at least intelligible; and an arith-
metical rule, thus adopted, had the recommendation of
being easily applied, and could not well be departed from
But from these rules, thus put forward in the first Bill,
the Noble Lord had in every particular since departed.—
( Hear, hear.) He had thus brought Downfon and St.
Germain's, although their population exceeded 2,000, into
the first class. He had in the same manner moved several
, boroughs from the first into the second class on the same
principle on which he put others into them. The places
the population of which was above 4,000 he kept among
those where the population was under 4,000, and gave
them but one Member. The places that had a popula-
tion above 20,000—such, for instance, as Stockport,
where the population of the town itself was 21,000,
and where the population within the limits of the parish
(a new mode of calculating adopted by the Noble Lord) was
no less than 44,000—were to have but one Member,
although they had been promised two; while Melton, with
a population of 4,500 was still to be allowed to elect two
Members, to,mock the common sense of the House of Com-
mons, to belie the principles on which the Ministers af•
fected to act, and to insult and exasperate the hopes of the
people.--(Cheers.) How different—how much more ex-
tensive was the plan of the Noble Lord now than it had
been on a former occasion ! When the Noble Lord was on
that side of the House, lie had brought forward a measure
fix the Reform of Parliament, and then be told them that
they must add 100 Members to the House, and he pro-
posed to make the addition by giving 60 new Members to
the counties, and 40 to the large towns of the kingdom.
But in order to do that, what did he propose that the House
sheaid do?—to cut off the nomination boroughs? No ; he
did not propose that, even in the days of his fancy visions;
he proposed only to cut off one of the Members from each
of the nomination boroughs. Why, that was just the
same thing that his Right Hon. Friend now proposed to
do. He would now say a word or two on the 10/. clause,
of which they had lately heard so much. The public had
lately been informed, by a very grave author ity, that that
clause which would only permit those of the 101. house-
holders who paid their rent half-yearly to have a vote bad
crept into the Bill inadvertently. The Right Ho
nourable Gentlemen said that was not the case ; he
said no, it was not introduced inadvertently, and there
it was, and there it should remain.—(No, no, no.)
Well then, he said that the House should judge whether
it should remain or not. Then they came to the applica•
don of the rules that the present Bill contained. The in-
structions given, to the persons who were to forward ac-
counts of the population were insufficient—or rather the
time allowed them to obtain information was so. Il
would take the instance of the town of Rochdale. The
person sent to obtain information on the population or
that town said that he should require at least a fortnight
for the purpose, but that his instructions hardly allowed
him a day.—(Hear, hear.) The Parliament had.nbeen
dissolved. The Ministers had advised his Majesty to Awl
that measure in order to appeal to the sense of the people
upon the Reform Bill, because the last Parliament had
voted against some parts of that Bill, and had threatene
others. The King was right in exercising his preroga-
tive—he had dissolved the Parliament for voting against
the Bill, but what had the Ministers done ?—they ought
to be dissolved—for they had voted against the Bill—and
he . trembled for their dissolution.—( Hear, hear,. an,
laughter.) They had changed every principle of the Bill,
45 he had already shown, and bad thus drawn themselve,

the reason on which they had advised the King to

dissolve the last Parliamew. He would now state one

very carious circumstance connected with this Bill—a
circumstance of which the House were probably hardly
aware. The Ministers had made 10/ rent the anchor (as
the Noble Lord, borrowing the fa; end of a metaphor from
the First Lord of the Admiralty—(A lan-Q.—had called
it), by which security in the measure was to be obtained
—it was their anchor of property. He would call the
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury as a witness to the fact.—
(As Mr. Stanley happened to enter the House at this mo-
.:knt, the alltoion to him crewed much laughter.)—At the
moment that the Ministry were hatching this Biil in
secrecy—in so much secresy that, by their own confession

%eas full of deformities—the Hon. Member for Shrews-

lrry, in Fehrua, y hot, int, educed a Bill to exempt from
the payment of poor's rates the 101. householders of the
kindotn.—(l-loar, he:tr.) The measure of property which
they had chosen to counterbalance all the evils of universal
suffrage, to gave stability and strength t 0... their measure,

was just that-which the Hon. Mcnaber for Shrewsbury,

actuated by the kindest and most judicious ft cling., was
,doting for another purpose ; for he, so far from looking
upon these 101. houses as the measure of property, treated
them in his Bill as the measure of pauperism.—(Cheers.)
And curiously enough, his Bull stood fur its second reading
on that very night on which the Bill of the Noble Lord
. .

was to he introduced, by which Litter Bill these 10/ house-
holders were all at once removed from a st Ile of pauperism,
and erected into independent householders, fully eapdhle or
becoming the f-ee electors of the legislators of the country.
That was the comely of the Bill. Now for the farce of it.
When the lion. Gentleman, the Member for Shrewsbury,
saw the disagreement between the two Bills in this reppect,

he braught in another Bill. The House would be sur-
pri-ed to see what it was. He had recourse to a little
evasion, by which he tried to get rid of the diffieulty,—

The new Bill introduced since the 11,form Bill had been

produced had been frameol with an alteration for that -pur-
pose. The clAuse had before stood, that the occupiers of

ilou.es charged under a rent of 121., should not be c tiled
on to pay the poor's rates, but that the paymeit of these
rates should be transferred from the tenant to the landlord.

Now houses charged under 12!., would of course include
101 tenants, and the clause was therefore altered, to suit
present circumstances, to buses let at a rent under 10/.
These two measures were now going pari passu through
the House. In one of these two great Constitutional mea-
sures, they were called on to declare that 10/. was a proper
legislative measure of fitness for the possession of the elec-
tive franchise ; and by the other they were, required to
state to the country that the 101. householder was only one
degree removed above actual pauperism.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) How could they reconcile these two opposite state-
ments with each other ? He was unwilling to detain the
House—and if he did not believe that the present measure
was of the most dangerous tendency, and that to make it
in any way satisfactory to the class for whom it was de-
si,,ned, the proposition of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Northampton, ought fira to he discussed—if he did not
think it necessary to the peace and well-being of the country,
he would not press the atneudment.—(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP thought that the last speaker lied
gone far from the real question before the House, for he
had not touched upon the schedule A, but had discussed
the principle of the Bill. That Right Hon. Gentleman
had said that lie did not wish to revive the heat and
quarrel of last night; but he (Lord Althorp) did not
think there had been any heat, although he allowed there
had been much waste of time.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
that gentlemen opposite appeared to be more sore about
any opposition than the occasion warranted.—(Hear.)
When an Hon. Gentleman opposite made an attack which
gave rise to murmurs upon that (the Ministerial) side of
the House—(Cheers)--he did not think those murmurs
unusual on such an occasion. He had always known
them to be excited by similar attacks. As to what the

Right Hon. Gentleman said respecting long speeches, and
his complaint that the long speeches of the opponents of
Reform were not adequately answered by that side of the
House, he (Lord Althorp) must say, that he for one was
Fable to the reproach of making short speeches—hut if
the advocates of the Bill did not reply to all that was said
on the opposite side, it was because they heard nothing
new in some of those speeches, and they did not think it
necessary to reply to them in long speeches containing no-
thing new...-(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said
that when they came to the discussion of schedule
A, he would prove that the Ministers had departed from
the principle of the Bill. If the Right Hon. Gentleman
could redeem his pledge, he should be ready to vote
with him. That gentleman had also said, that their pur-
pose in disfranchising the boroughs was to make room for
the additional Members. But the fact was, that they dis-
franchised those boroughs on account of the evils to which
they gave rise, and finding that their disfranchisement
made room in the representation for the large towns,
which ought to be represented, they transferred the fran-
chise to such towns. One principal object of the Bill was
to put an end to nominee boroughs ; another, to give the
representation to large towns and other populous places.
It had been said, that in 1822 his Noble Friend had pro-
posed a Bill on very different principles from the present.
But the reason of that was, that the friends df Reform had
then an overwhelming majority against them in the House,
and, as they would have no chance of carrying an entire
measure, they were obliged to confine themselves to a par-
tial one.—(Cheers.) As to the clause respecting the 101.
householders paying rent oftener than half-yearly, the sole
purpose of that clause was to confine the franchise to
bona fide 101. householders, and when it was discovered
that the clause had so disfranchising a tendency, it
was determined to alter it. When they said that the
clause had been introduced inadvertently, it was not
meant to say that the Noble Lord did net know
of its introduction, but that he was not aware of its
disfranchising tendency.--(Much cheering.) One gen-
tleman had said that the inhabitants of 10/. houses were
nearly in the condition of paupers, and that instead of
taking property as the basis of representation, they (the
Ministers) had chosen the maximum of poverty.—(Hear.)
But, for his (Lord Althorp's) part, he held that they had
extended the franchise to the minimum of property,, and
to that lie thought it ought to he extended.--(Cheers.)
He apprehended no danger from the extension of the
franchise, but only from its restriction. Whilst nearly
all those who possessed some property were admitted to
the franchise, most of those who were excluded from it
saw persons nearly of the same class with themselves pos-
sessing the right to vote, and they tv,:tild have continually
the hope of attaining tlte possession of the same right.—
(Hear, bear.) The reduction of the Members of the
House had no specific cause but the necessity of putting
an end to the nomination; or, as they were called, the
rotten boroughs ; and it appeared to the framers of the
Bill that any thing which the commercial classes might
lose in the way of representation by the extinction of those
boroughs was fully compensated by the other arrange-
men is of the Bill. -

Colonel WOOD supported the amendment. He con-
sidered the disfranchisement of the freemen, and of those
voters called potwallopers, great injustice. lie was
friendly to universal suffrage in some places, in order that
it might prevail in all places.—(Cheers.) He remem-
bered that it was to universal suffrage the House owed
the presence of the lion. Member for Preston amongst
them, and he hoped they would long continue to have that
Hon. Gentleman there.—(Cheers.)
Mr. C. PELHAM also supported the amendment.
Sir R. PEEL meant to address himself simply and ex-
clusively to the matter before the House ; and notwith-
standing all that had been said, he should confine himself
to the question, whether the consideration of the sche-
dules A and B should be adjourned. He should act on
the adnionifon of the Noble Lord opposite, and make but
a short speech. It often happened that short speeches
were most able and effective. Now the last word effec-
tive reminded him of an expression which had been used
by the Right Hon. Member for Windsor—he meant the
word " talented." He accounted far the Right Hon.
Gentleman's using- so vile s word--(A laugh)—by his
having reit] so much of Irish documents of late.—(Lsugh-
ter, and order.) In that discussion lie should avoid as
much as he could ani=reference to the principle of the
Bill, which they had had Sufficient opportunity to discuss—
(Hear)—and it was not regular to renew that part of the
discussion in the Committee. The time to do so would be
in the House, on the motion that the report of the Com-
mittee be received, or upon the third reading of the Bill.
There were many details which require] discussion,
and to them in the Committee he should, as far as
possible confine himself. He thought, that if his Majesty's
Government had taken the prudent course, after they had
obtained a majority of 136, upon the general principle of
the Bill, not to insist upon the discussion of the details
without waiting for necessary information to be laid before
the House. He knew, indeed, that the advocates of the
Bill were already satisfied with the information which they
possessed, and that they were afraid they should he over-
taken by the returns of 1831.—(Cheers.) They were
acting on the principle of population, that is to say, of 2000
and 4000—(A laugh)—but then they took the population
of 1821 as their basis, although they should have in three'
weeks the returns of the population for 1831, by which,
perhaps, before the Bill could leave that House, it might
be proved that those places which were exempted from the
disfranchisement ought, according to the Bill, to have been
subjected to it, and those which had been subjected ought
to have been exempted.—(Cheers). In his opinion, be
had never heard a case for delay better made out than that

ieh had bet n brotsalit forward by his Right Pon. Friend.
Thu case with respect to Rochdale was extremely striking,
esio-'iallw when the gentleman who was sent by Govern-
ment told them that a fortnight was required for what
they had commissioned him to do in a day.—(Laughter
and cheers.) Though he could not compliment the
Government on its prudence and wisdom on this occa-
sion, at all events he could on their candour.--(A
laush.) After the observation of this gentleman, I e
(Sir• Robert Peel) should rather be inclined to think
that he was paid by the day.— (A laugh.) He had pointed
cut these errors, because he held it to be his duty to do so.
It nei ht be more politic to leave these flaws in the mea-
sure, for he was aphis: the Bill ; but at the same time he
was its coesistent opponent, and if it must be passed, he
wished to see it passed with the least mischief to the
ountry. It was yet, perhaps, possible that some of its
more injurious clauses might he got over ; but if, on its
third reading, he found that the evils still overbalanced the
,7,nod, he should continue to vote 'against the measure.--
(Hear, hear.) He trusted, however, that opportunity
would lie afforded for perfectly fair discussion on every por- •
'ion of the snbj et ; but at the same time he world not be
a par• y o n vexa ious delay; while, on the other hand,
it should be remembered, that thosewho were most sincere
is favour of the Bill ought to be the greatest advocates for
a full discussion. He would briefly state what he con-
sidered to lie the main defects of the Bill, which still re-
mained un•inswer. d, after all that had been said on the other
side. In the firs' place, he could not set the advantage of this
wholesale disfranchisement, for he set a much higher
value on prescription than the Noble Lord appeared to
du ; the next point to which lie had never heirs! an an-
swer was that which hail been so wel urged, that the
taking away the nomination boroughs wonld prevent tho
accession of new talent to the House ; the third point was,
that if this Bill were carried, there would be no certainty
of any one who was called upon to be a Minister of the
Crown being returned after the required vacation of his
seat on his appointment to office ; his next ground of ob-
jection was, that this change would he the means of ex-
cluding from the House of Commons meta of retired
habits, but of profound knowledge, who would not like to
present themselves before the 101. voters instituted by this
Bill ; his next point of objection was, that the Bill would
be the means of entirely excluding the colonial interest;
and lastly, lie objected, that under a limited Monarchy the t
Bill did not afford sufficient check against the passions of
the people. But the question immediately before the
Committee was that of delay; and he thought this ought
to he granted, for there were many moderate Reformers
in the House ; and it was but just to see to how touch of
the proposed measure:they could afford their support. Ile
would tell them what one plan of moderate Reform might
be—it might be to give representatives to all the lar4e
towns, and disfranchise so many of the close boroughs as
would be sufficient to keep the numbers of the House the
same as they were at present. If this were done, theme
would be no abating of the boroughs as if they were a
nuisance, and a subsequent check would be at hand in the
event of other large towns springing up. or other Reform
being called for. It was in this view that ii should vote
for his Right lion. Friend's amendment, as affei ding an •
infinitely better protection to the Constitution than the
two clauses as tiny existed in the Bid. —(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that with respect to giving a
representative to Rochdale, that had been fixed long before
e gentleman who had been alluded to had been sent
there; the reason for sending bins there being that, as the
dissolution of Parliament afforded an interval, Government
was willing to avail themselves of it to obtain information
on certain points.—(hear, hear.) With respect to the .
other points urged by the Right Hon. Baronet, he did not
see that it was necessary to keep np these nomination
boroughs for the sake of the colonial interests ; for even •
in a reformed Pediment he thought it likely that those
seaports with which those gentlemen were connected by
their trade would return them to Parliarneat. With re-
spect to the return of Ministers, he should certainly regret
it any check were put ou the prerogative of the Crown.
Teat, however, wits rather matter for the consideration of
the independent Members of the House than for the Go-
vernment. He was not, however, apprehensive that Ali-
nisters would find it difficult to obta n scats- for populous
plac s.—(Hear, hear.) But, even ruppesing that these
difficulties did exie, were they, for the sake of such dif-
ficulties as these, to preserve boroughs that were a direct
violation of th• Constitution ?—(Cbeeis.)
. _

Colonel SIBTHOIIPE rote snail loud cries of" Ques-
tion ;" and in his remarks, which did not distinctly reach
the reporters, was understood to support Mr. Wynn's
amendment.

Mr. C. WYNN replied briefly, stating that his motive
for making his motion was, if disfranchisement should
take place, it should be determined not by population alone
but by situation, population, and wealth.—(" Question."),
Sr A. AGNEW said a few words amidst much noise.
(Lotd calls of " Qui stion.")
Mr. HUNT persisted in addressing the House, not-
w thstandiug the loud calls for question. We understood
him to say that he would vote for the measure because it
was the b ginning of Reform.—C.Calls of " Question ")

Mr. J. JOHNSTONE rose to address.the House amidst
much confusion. The lion. Member persevered amidst
touch laughter and cal!, of order and question. We un-
derstood little more of the Hon. Member's speech than an
apostrophe to the Hon. Member for Tamworth, which
called forth repeated peals of laughter. The Hon. Mem-,
her was also understood to say, in reference to Sir George
Murray's observation on Cromwell, that the late Ministry
were Gaines, and Cromwell was better than Catiline.
The calls fur question were then renewed, and the House
divided—

For the motion
Against it 292
Majority against Mr. Wynn's motion -118
The clause was tlieu read, the Chairman reported pro-
gress, and obtained leave to sit spin. 'f he House resumed.
The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Two o'c!ock.

THE ANTI-REFORM AMENDMENTS

OF TUESDAY.

The following is the official account of the proceedings
in the House of Commons on Tuesday night, as given in
the printed orders of the House :

" Reform of Parliament (England) Bill—order for
Committee read ; petition of the burgesses and others of
the borough of Appleby read ; motion made and question
put—' That the said petition be referred to the Committee.
and that the petitioners be 1 card by themselves, their
'counsel, or agents, and be permitted to produce evi lence
before the said Committee in re=pect of the facts sated in
the said petition.' The House divided—Ayes 18'7, Note
281. Motion made, and question proposed—' That Mr.
Spe,lier Jo now leave the Chair.' Debate arising there-
upon—

Mercurii, 13° the du;ii, 1831—

" Motion made, and question put—' That the debate be
now adjourned till this day.' The ii,use divided—Ayes
102, Noes 328. Question again proposed, That Mr.
Speaker do now leave the Chair.' Whereupon motion
made, and question put, That the House do now adjourn.'
The House divided—Ayes 90, Noes 283. Question again
proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.'
Debate arising thereupon, motion made, and question put,
That the debate be adjourned till Thursday.' The
House divided—Ayes 63. Noes 235. Question again
proposed, ' That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.'
Whereupon motion made, and question put, That the
House do now adjourn.' Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Question :again proposed, That Mr. Speaker do now
leave the Chair.' Debate arising thereupon, notion made,
i and question put, That the &bate be adjourned till this
day.' The House divided—Ayes 44, Noes 211. Ques.
tion again proposed, "Fhat Mr. Speaker do now leave
the Chair.' Whereupon motion made, and question put,
That the House do now adjourn.' The House divided—
Ayes 37, Noes 203. Question ag ►in proposed, That
Mr. Speaker do now le.ve the Chair.' Dtbate arising
thereupon, motion made, and question put, That the
debate Jae adjourned till Friday.' The House divided—.
Ayes 25, Noes 187. Que'tisn again proposed, That
Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair.' Whereupon mo-
tion nude, and question pot, ' That the House do now ad-
journ.' The House divided--Ayes 21, Noes 187. Ques,
tion, That Mr. Speaker do DOW leave the Chair,' put,
and agreed to. Bill considered in Committee; Com-
tilitt?e report progress ; to sit again this day.' "

MURDER OF A KlNG.—Unfortunately for
Poltnd, she had scarcely begun to enjoy the sweets of a
settled government, when the smiling prospect was again
obscured. The elevation and success of PREMISLAS
awakened the fears no less than the jealousy of his neigh -
bouts. To unbend his mind from his arduous duties he
had retired to Rogozno, to ce)ebrate with feats and tourneys
one of the high festivals of the church. One night, when
the diversions were over, and the numerous guests were
wrapped in sleep, when even his gouda were overcome by
the strength of the potations, his cousin, the Margrave of
Axuar,T, accompanied by a few ruffians, entered his apart,
meat. He awoke in titre, indeed, to make a resolute de-
fence, but not t 3 avert his fate. He fell beneath their re-
doubled blows, before any member of his household could
hasten to his assistance.—Dr. Lardner's Cabinet C:iclo-
!, pee,dia.