The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, _LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 10, 1836.

to pay scme little deference to it in the manner iu which
they proceeded upon the present occasion. It must be evident
to all their Lordships that the form of proceeding which
Noble Lords opposite had adopted, in reference to this Bill,
was the very same as that attempted by the corresponding
party in the House of Commons, where it was admitted
to be an attempt to frame an entirely new Bill, instead
of the original one introduced by the Government. Now,
if Noble Lords took up this very proposition, which was
negatived by a very large majority in the other House, he
would ask, might not certain persons out of doors have an
opportunity of saying —he admitted perhaps unfairly and
unreasonably, but still might it not offer an excuse to some
such person to say—that the object of Noble Lords was not to
amend, but to defeat the Bill? He did not himself accuse
the Noble and Learned Lord opposite of having any such in-
tention; but he asked whether, in England and in Ireland,
there might not he many persons who would do so ?—( Hear,
hear.) If the Noble and Learned Lord had dealt a little
more sparingly with the subject—if he had but left a few of
the larger towns to enjoy their Corporations, then at least
there would be some pretensions to act upon the same form,
and with the same general views as had been displayed to-
wards England, and then the gross and direct outrage upon
the feelings of the whole mass of the Irish population, con-
veyed in the proposition of the Noble and Learned Lord,
would have been spared. It might still be a question, per-
haps, with some of their Lordships, whether it might not
be right to take away from the Irish people all the rights and
liberties of a free nation, and all participation in the British
Constitution, and to prevent them having elections at all.
But if they allowed them the advantages of the British Con.
stitution in other respects, he should like very much to know
why they should not have it in this most essential particular ?
If the Irish people were not considered worthy of this right,
what was the meaning of the Act of Union ? Was it now for
those who had carried and supported that Act to turn round
and say to the people of England, "the Irish people are an
ignorant, illiterate, bigotted set of men, and accordingly we
have thrown them into closer contact with you, and mixed
them amongst you ?" On the other hand, with regard to
Scotland, was it said to her, at the time of her union with
England, that she was not fit to enjoy a free Constitution ? If
such were the feeling, it should have been uttered in 1793 ; it
should have-been declared, and he should like to have heard
it said in 1782, when the volunteers were up all over the coun-
try, in support of the Government. He repeated, therefore,
that this attempt was a most flagrant outrage and insult upon
the whole Irish nation. For England measures had been passed
which it was admitted gave increased influence and means to
the democratic power in the country, while by the present
amended Bill it was proposed for Ireland to destroy all her po-
pular or democratic influences, and throw everything into the
hands of the Crown. If they acceded to this proposition, he
must say they would be giving such power to the monarchy of
these realms as had never been given it up to the present pe-
riod. He believed that it had long been the object of a cer-
tain party to keep the great body of the people of Ireland from
having any voice or participation in the affairs of Parliament.
Allusions had been made last year, in their Lordships' House,
and also on -the present occasion, to what was termed a party
Bill—he must say he never saw any party Bill so glaringly so
as this one as it stood. The argument against the people of
Ireland now was, not on account of their religion, but on ac-
count of the elections.—( Hear, hear.) It did not signify now
whether the Priests exercised their influence over the people's
minds or not; this fact was quite sufficient, that the choice of
the people did not fall upon the men whom the party in ques-
tion liked to see returned. He could not admit the proposi-
tion that the people of Ireland had shown themselves in any
degree unfit for using the right of election ; on the contrary,
he maintained that they had ever shown themselves possessed
of a just reverence of the British Constitution, and they had
a right, as British subjects, to as much freedom in the elece
tive principle, as the people of England had at any time en-
joyed._ ( Hear, from the Opposition.) Noble Lords might
cheer, who recollected the times when even in England it
was thought no harm that certain persons and certain families
had the power of returning themselves to Parliament. This
was not considered in the light of undue influence in elections,
even in this country.—( Hear, hear.) The fact with regard
to Ireland was a very plain one, which it would be vain in their
Lordships to attempt to put out of sight--namely, that the
majority of the people of Ireland were Catholics, and there-
fore it was a natural and unavoidable consequence, that the
prevailing party in Ireland should be a Catholic party. If it
was supposed that this House had power to pull down a large
national party, whatever it might be, it would one day find
cut its mistake, and in a way, perhaps, to threaten its very ex-
istence. He warned their Lordships that they were about to
throw out this Bill in a way most mischievous, not only to
the country, but to their own dignity. If they were not pro-
voking a collision—for he hoped that would not be the case—
they were certainly proclaiming a most decided difference in
opinion with the other House of Parliament. All he could
say was, that ,if such a collision should arise--:if that view
should be taken by the country of their Lordships' conduct as
should render such a collision unavoidable—truth would
oblige him to declare that their Lordships had themselves
provoked it, and he trusted that they might not have cause to
repent it.—( Cheers.)
The Duke of RICHMOND said, that whilst he cer-
tainly could not have voted for the Bill as it came up from
the House of Commons, at the same time he thought the
arguments of the Noble Marquis upon the method by which
it had been attempted to defeat it in their Lordship's House
were well worthy of attention. Whilst he agreed to the pro-
priety of abolishing the present form of Municipal Government
in the greater part of the Corporations of Ireland, he could
not see why some of the larger towns, such as Dublin, Bel-
fast, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Waterford, and Cork,
should not be permitted to have Corporations.—( Hear.)
When it was recollected that the proposed franchise was
fixed at 10/., lie did not think that the corporate principle
could operate so mischievously in such towns as he had named,
as in other more insignificant ones in which Corporations
at present existed. He felt that the question might be viewed
out of doors as a Catholic question. He (the Duke of Rich-
mond) was originally opposed to the Catholic Relief Bill, but
when once it was passed into a law, he determined that he
would never suffer its being repealed either openly or by a
side-wind. The Noble Duke concluded by stating that he
should support the clause as it originally stood, and if that
were carried, that he should move that schedule A be re-
tained in the Bill, leaving the towns in schedule B to be dis-
franchised altogether.
The LORD CHANCELLOR remarked that, with re-
gard to corporate property, he thought that the same principle
should be acted upon for Ireland as had been applied to Eng-
land. What was it that the English Bill did ? After making
certain provisions and regulations for local expenditure, it left
the surplus, if there happened to be any, for the benefit of the
town to which it belonged ; but by the present Bill the Crown
was to have the sole control over all the corporate property of
Ireland, and was to dispose of it, through Commissioners ap-
pointed by it, and removeable by it also. He felt it his duty
to call their Lordships' attention, if only to this sirig'e view
of the case, and to the innumerable offices and the vast ex-
penditure which it might be in the power of the Crown,
through this commission, to make. He wished to know upon
what principle it was to be attempted to deny to Ireland,
even to her largest towns, the same exercise of elective free-
dom, and the same- control over her own local affairs and
property, which had been given to England ? It was to the
whole system upon which this invidious distinction was at-
tempted that he (the Lord Chancellor) felt himself opposod.
If these amendments were carried, it would go forth that the
people of Ireland were not fit to enjoy the same free laws as
England—that she was to be outlawed, and put out of the
pale of society, and that this was necessary in order to secure
the peace of the country. The Noble and Learned Lord
opposite had spoken of the riots and outrages which occurred
at the elections in Ireland. He admitted that such might be
the case occasionally, but he would ask whether such disor-
ders were not equally liable to occur at elections in Eng-
land? Now, what would their Lordships think of a proposal
for a select Committee to inquire whether outrages and riots
had occurred at the elections in certain towns, and if it were
found to be so, to destroy the corporations of all those towns?
He had heard, he thought, even within the walls of that
House, allusions passed upon the English Corporations Act,
and the way in which it had worked, and then it was asked
whether they would extend the same state of things to Ire-
land. Now, for his own part, he should say, that if the
English Corporation Act had worked as it was reported to
have done, he did not see any reason, as far as such experience
went, not to apply the same principle to Ireland.—( Hear. )

The Earl of HADDINGTON admitted the doCtrine that
equal justice should be done to Ireland and to. England, and
it was upon this very ground, it was with a view to se-
cure equal justice and equal rights to the people of England
and those of Ireland that he supported the amendments pro-
posed to this Bill. It was alleged that the Corporations of
Ireland were exclusive bodies. He admitted that they were
so, and he concurred with Noble Lords opposite in the opi-
nion that those exclusive bodies should no longer be permitted
to remain. But the difference between himself arid Noble
Lords opposite upon the subject was this—the Noble Lords on
the other side of the House wished to remove the Protestant
exclusive bodies which bad hitherto existed, and to erect Ca-
tholic exclusive bodies in their stead—( No, no, from the Mi-
nisterial Benches)—on the other hand, he and Noble Lords
on his side of the House proposed, with a view to promote
harmony between the Catholics and Protestants of Ire-
land, and to prevent future trouble and discord in the
country, that these Corporations should cease altogether to
exist. The amendments now before the House proposed to
do away indiscriminately with all the Corporations of Ireland.
The Noble Persons to whom he had just referred seemed to
think there were certain towns in which it would be proper to
leave those Corporations in existence. 'Now this, he must
say, he thought a very invidious proposition. Where, he
would ask. would be the equal justice in proceeding in this
way ? Had they done so for England ? had they done so for
Scotland ? and if not, why should they do so in Ireland ?
But, abstractedly from this view of the case, he was opposed
to the proposition on many other grounds. He was against
leaving these Corporations in places where, of necessity,
their dangerous tendency would operate upon a larger scale,
and taking them away from places where there would be com-
paratively little danger in their existence. He thought there
would be much less danger in allowing the corporate principle
to be scattered over the sma'ler town= throughout the country,
than in fostering its growth in a few large towns only, in Dublin,
for instance where nothing short of a perfect Parliament for poli-
tical agitation would be erected under its influence. He denied
the allegation that he or his party were opposed to the elective
principle, because under it persons had been returned who
were not of their way of thinking, but because they felt con-
vinced that the freedom of election did not exist to Ireland.
They were anxious, therefore, that the excitement of the pro-
posed municipal elections should not be added to those which
c.4.eady existed there. It had been alleged that they wished
t) deprive the people of Ireland of the due share which they
held in the representative principle of the other Abuse of Par-

Fitment. Ile denied this allegation altogether, and he must
say that, looking at the proceedings in the other House, the
people of Ireland appeared to possess at least their full share
of influence there.—( Hear, hear.) Upon every principle of
sound policy, and with a view to protect the people of Ireland
in their true interests, by rejecting the shadow of municipal re-
form and freedom which had been held out to them, though he
denied that they were losing sight of their substance, he should
support his Noble Friend's amendment. He knew that there
were thousands and thousands of people throughout Ireland
who would be rejoiced if This bone of contention, about which
they had so long been harassed, were taken away from them.
Those who were anxious for this measure were those who were
urging on the question for a repeal of the Union, and who de-
sired to obtain that, or, at least, an equivalent for it. Why
did he assert this ? Because they themselves had frankly
avowed that they demanded a repeal of the Union, or an
equivalent, and first to b 3 estimated by them as an equivalent
was this very Corporation B:11.—( Hear, hear.) That was
put in the first rank, and then such a Church Bill as
would insure to the people of Ireland, aye, and to the
voluntary system gentry in England, the enforcement of
that principle that nobody was to give anything to the support
of a religion which he dissented from. These, and such as
these, were to be the means for procuring an equivalent for
the repeal of the Union. This, he considered, was a most
important part of the question. He did not wish to enter it,
but the Noble Lord had thought fit to enter into the general
discussion. He had entered into it so far, because he felt it

to be his duty, as he considered the question one of the deep-
est importance to the peace and security of the country, and
to the integrity of the British empire. ' He knew this, that let
them take this question as referring to that unhappy land, and

let them decide.it which way they-would, that still the alter-
native would be an evil. ft was no gratification to him
to vote as he felt bound to do, but he was obliged—he was
compelled to do so. Either plan must be adopted. If they
adopted the one first proposed, it was fraught with the greatest
mischief, and might end in the ruin of the empire ; if they
took the other, there was still a fair prospect of laying the
foundation of the peace and security of the country.
The Marquis of CL ANRICARDE observed, that it had
been said by the Noble Earl, that if the Corporations were
established they would constitute an Irish House of Com-
mons, and that the Noble Lord was afraid of an Irish House
of Commons. Now, he would, in reply, remark that the
people of Ireland had an Irish House of Commons, and he
thanked God for it.

The Marquis of CONYNG HAM remarked that it could
not be said that Irishmen asked for anything unreasonable,
when they demanded municipal reform. The only question
he thought ought to be this, how is such reform to be carried
into effect, so that it may be a full, efficient, and satisfactory
measure—so that the' people might have the local control
over their own property in such municipal. institutions as were-
given to them ? Their Lordships had given an efficient re-
form to England—they had given a boon of equal importance
to Scotland ; could they then expect that Ireland would be
satisfied with less?—( Hear, and cheers ) They were told
that there was a broad line of separation, a marked distinction
to be made between the mode in which justice was to be con-
ferred on England, and doled out to Ireland. Did they expect
that Ireland would remain contented under such an indignity?
Did they not proclaim to the people of Ireland that they were
unworthy of managing their own affairs. He totally denied
that there was any unfitness or any unworthiness on the part
of his countrymen. The chartered Corporations might have
abused their trust ; but as an Irishman he protested against
any distinction being made between the two countries so unjust
as that which he referred to, and which was now proposed to be
made. Let their Lordships make any such distinction, and it
would be anything but satisfactory to the people of that country
—it would do anything but promote peace and tranquillity in
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) His Majesty's Government had in-
troduced a Bill based upon justice--a Bill which sought to
regenerate and not to destroy Corporations. The Noble Lord
had, on the other hand, introduced a Bill which " out-heroded
Herod"—a Bill which swept away even the names of Corpora-
tions from the face of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If one
thing more than another could tend to increase the influence
of Mr. O'Connell—if they could do one thing more than ano-
ther to give strength and energy to agitation and to agitators—
it would be doing this.--( Hear, hear.) When he talked of
Mr. O'Connell, lie did so because that gentleman had been so
frequently alluded to by Noble Lords opposite—he did so, be-
cause there appeared to be a determination on their part to
refuse any measure which that gentleman supported.—( Hear,
hear, and cheers from the Ministerial Members.) Let them
depend upon it that the most effectual check to agitation was
to do equal justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) In common
with h:s fellow-countrymen he suffered from agitation. The
more they dealt out justice the more was tranquillity secured
and agitation depressed. He had no intention of rising ; but
he could not help protesting against their Lordships' doing an
act of injustice to Ireland, which he assured them would be
felt from one end of that country to the other. —( Cheers. )
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed that the
Noble Marquis who had last sat down talked a great deal of
the injury they should,infliet upon Ireland by not doing equal
jr.stiee. Now what, he asked, was the equal justice proposed
by this Bill ? It was to take from the Protestants the power
they had in the Corporations, and this for the purpose of de-
livering it over to the Roman Catholics. It was not only to
take the power now vested in the Corporations and place it in
the hands of the Roman Catholics, but it was to give to the
agitators and the Catholic priests the complete representa-
tion of Ireland.—( Hear.) He asked the Noble Marquis, as a
Protestant landlord, was that a state of things which he would
like to see established ? If lie were compelled to make a
choice, then be should prefer the Bill of the Noble and
Learned Lord as being, of the two presented to the House,
the better Bill.

Lord HAT H ERTON did not agree with the Noble Lord
as to this Bill, although he entirely concurred with him as to
the accuracy of his description of the evils likely to flow from
the system of agitation in Ireland ; but it was his opinion they
never could grapple with them—they never could put an end
to them until they were prepared to do justice to that coun-
try. Did they believe that the English Corporation Bill was
necessary ? What, then, were the Irish Corporations ? He
considered it to be most important to secure to the people
British institutions, and he only wished the question to be
treated, as far as regarded Ireland, with the same confidence
that it ought to be, when applied to this country. A Noble
Lord had a few nights ago said, that the same forms of Go-
vernment were not always applicable to Ireland which were
framed to suit England. Now, although the same forms
might not be always applicable, the same measure of justice
ought to be so. Though they maintained the same judicial
establishments in the two countries, yet they had the Civil
Bill Courts in Ireland, as being required by the peculiar
circumstances of the country. The same peculiarity in
fluenced them in their determination upon the Church ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) Ile advocated both in England and
Ireland the Corporation principle, as being applicable to both
countries ; but in Ireland requiring some modifications,
which were necessary for the due discharge of Magisterial
offices. He could not see any reason why they ought not to
act with liberality to that country, or what justice there could
be in refusing what was now sought for. From the time of
the conquest of Ireland down to the Union, no great measure
of conciliation had been adopted. Down to this period no
system was adopted calculated to unite the two people under
one system of government. From the period of the Union
down to the accession of Lord Grey's Administration, during
all that period of thirty years, the Irish people derived no be-
nefit from the Union. What was done ? The Liberal party
forced open the doors of Parliament; but there was no
equality of patronage or favour shown to them. There was
no assimilation. He was satisfied, that they might write laws
—they would be mere parchment laws. As laws they would
be considered to be so legally, but they never could produce a
complete identity of interests. Ireland never would ke like
Lancaster and Scotland, a part of England, until they ex-
tended to her the same system of government—the same libe-
ral treatment ; until, in short, the same institutions were con-
ferred upon her.—( Hear.)
Their Lordships then divided—
For Lord Lyndhurst's amendment
• Against it
Majority —54
Lord LYNDHURST was then willing either as the Noble
Viscount or Noble Marquis pleased, to go through the clauses
one by one, or to have his amendments all passed pro
.forma,
and afterwards recommitted, or that they might be recom-
mitted and the discussion taken upon them.
The Marquis of LA N SDO WN E remarked as the House
was prepared for a discussion, lie thought it better to go on
with the Bill then.

The third clause, with one or two slight amendments, was
then agreed to.
Upon the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, clauses 4,5,
6,7, 8, and 9, were struck out.
Lord LYNDHURST observed that the 10th clause was

the same as the 4th clause in this Bill.—lt was agreed to.
Upon the motion of Lord LYNDHURST, the clauses 11
to 21 inclusive were struck out.
Upon its being proposed to strike out clause 22,
The Duke of RICHMOND objected to it, as it was by
this clause Aldermen and Councillors should be appointed in
towns named in schedules A and B. He could not see why
Corporations ought not to be given to large towns. He
would not give them to small towns, for he did not think
that Corporations were required in small towns, either in Eng-
land or Ireland. But he felt that in Dublin and other great
commercial towns there could be no danger in giving to the
people the management of their own affairs. Sincerely be-
lieving, as he did, that no mischief could follow from having
Corporations in the large towns, he should object to the clause
being struck out. He should propose a motion to that ef-
fect, either on the report being brought up, or upon the third
reading.
Viscount MELBOURNE—Move it now.
The Duke of RICHMOND then stated that he opposed the
clause being struck out.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE felt, he said,. SO much

the importance of this clause—it was one which so materially
affected and involved the principle of the Bill—that it was
impossible for him to give a silent vote upon it. The clause
was one that he was most anxious to retain. He and his
Noble Friends were anxious to respect Corporation rights in
Ireland—..to respect ancient Corporate property; and which,
for the first time, that House was now invited to invade ; an
example which, he could tell that House, would not on a fu-
ture occasion be forgotten.—(Bear.) He was anxious to do
this, for the purpose of keeping alive the Corporate
principle, of preserving property in the hands of persons
competent to manage it. Bat the Noble and Learned Lord
had in an authorative manner assured them that the people
of Ireland were incompetent to be entrusted with the elec-
tion of those who were to manage such property—that they
could not be entrusted with such power, either with safety to
themselves or safety to the country ; and yet by some fatality,
at the -very time that the Noble and Learned Lord pro-
nounced a general sentence of incompetency against a vrlple

people, the Noble and Learned Lord called their attention
to the 9th George IV., which was an Act of Parliament by
which such matters were provided for, and that too by popu-
lar elections in that country.—( Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.)
The Noble and Learned Lord had abstained from telling
them what was the amended title which he meant to give
to the new Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The former title
must be altered. That described the Bill as being one to
regulate the municipal corporations of Ireland. To "regulate'
them the Noble and Learned Lord did not mean.—( Hear.)
To call his Bill a Bill to " amend" the corporations Would be
absurd,and the Noble and Learned Lord had not vet fon.-.3
the courage (so we understood the Noble Marquis) to call
it a Bill to abolish them.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But what was
the real title of this Bill, which ought to be perfectly and dis-
tinctly described ? It was a Bill for the purpose of vesting in
one man—for the purpose of vesting in the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland—all the privileges and all the property of the Cor-
porations of Ireland.—(" Cries of " Hear.") No one could
suppose that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland could administer
that property himself; every one would admit that he must
have agents ; but all that it was necessary to do was to vest the
power entirely in him was to provide, as the Noble and Learned
Lord had provided, that the persons appointed to administer
the property'should not be responsible to the people, but re-
sponsible to him, and to him only, and that they should be
removable at his pleasure.—( Hear.) Why, could any ma-
chinery be contrived of a more exclusive character for the pur-
pose of making him sole master of the whole amount of that
corporate property? That power was vested exclusively in
him, and yet the Noble Earl told him that the principle had
for its object to prevent exclusion.—(Cheers.) He was con-
fident that if their Lordships adopted the course which was
recommended to them by the Noble Lords opposite they would
take a step which they would soon wish to retrace.—( Hear.)
It would have the effect of separating every one of these
towns, and of laying the foundation of complaints which
were not the less likely to be actively and constantly pro-
claimed, because they would be derived from a perpetual com-
parison of their condition with the state of other towns in
England, with respect to which they had proceeded on a prin-
ciple distinctly opposite.--( Hear, hear.) Their Lordships
were about to confer a power on the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
land, which he was sure he might say that the present Lord
Lietenant of Ireland would be one of the first to disclaim.
That Noble Lord would be one of the first to feel he ought not
to have the power of administering for local purposes that
which he could not so well administer as could the persons
who were locally interested. This was a proceeding in the
inverse ratio of civilization. Of the Government of Austria
he wished to speak with respect, but he thought it no disres-
pect to' say of that Government, that it had the reputation of
being perhaps the most cautious Government, and the most
apprehensive as regarded the effect of any change. Even the
Government of Austria had—he would not say introduced—
because it had existed before—but had extended and conferred
municipal government--( Hear, hear)—on the very ground al-
leged in this case, that it was the greatest benefit which could
be conferred on the people, and the one most likely to prevent
them from mixing in the disorders, and embarking in the courses
which were hostile to the Government of the State.—( Hear. )
In concurring in the motion of the Noble Duke, he did so in
a disposition to meet certain Noble Lords in this House in
a spirit of fair deliberation—he would not call it compromise—he
did so because he felt that, with regard to these particular
towns, there could not be, in his opinion, a question as to their
being entitled to the enjoyment of a continuance of the privi-
leges which it was proposed by this Bill to preserve. He would
at the same time declare, that against the total extinction of
municipal institutions in Ireland—against an authoritative de-
claration from this House to the people of Ireland, that.in this
House the people of Ireland were thought unfit for all the pur-
poses of local government, he must enter his most solemn
protest in the strongest terms that he could express it. Such
was the opinion he entertainad now—such was the opinion he
should adhere to, and he trusted it would be adhered to by
all those who felt an interest in the success of this great mea-
sure.—( Cheers).
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that a more tyrannical
Bill never was yet introduced into any House than was this Bill,
and greater powers were never conferred by any House than it
was intended to confer on these coporations by this Bill, at the
same time that it deprived the corporations of the power of ad -
ministering justice, and all those powers they had held up to this
time.. The Noble Lord opposite said they had conferred certain
powers on the English Corporations, and why not confer simi
lar powers on the Corporations of Ireland? It might be sup -
posed, from the course of argument of the Noble Lord, that
their Lordships had never looked at or considered the different
situations of Ireland as compared with other countries; that
they had not examined the reasons which were given fur pass-
ing
those painful Acts of Parliament which had been submitted
to their consideration ; in short there really existed no differ-
ence between the people of this country arid the Irish people.
What was the fact? They had not established the same prin-
ciple ; they had taken quite a different course ; they'had ap-
plied a totally different scale of taxation. The effect of the
Bill proposed would be to establish an exclusive system in
place of the exclusive system which was to be abolished.—
( Hear, hear.) If the proposed Bill were passed lie should
entertain great apprehension for those who would live in
the towns under such a system. In the proportion that the
Corporations had misconducted themselves—in the proportion
that the Protestant party, as was alleged, had abused the
powers in their hands, in his opinion it was the duty of a wise
Legislature to be careful that they did not throw power im-
mediately into the hands of a powerful opposing party, for the
purpose of avenging the past.—( Opposition cheers.)
The Marquis ofC!, ANRICA RD E begged to ask what
was the nature of the tyrannical power of which the Noble
Duke had spoken ? The town councils were to be elected by
the people, and having been so elected, they were to have the
right of levying certain rates upon the people. The system
then was one in which the people were to have a control' over
the, management of the funds raised amongst themselves for
their own benefit, and that was described by the Noble Duke
as a tyrannical power.—( Cheers.) If there was the least,
force in the argument of the Noble Duke then the House of
Commons was a tyrannical institution, and all elective Govern-
ments were tyrannical powers.—( Cheers.) When the people
were misgoverned by a small majority the Noble Lords oppo-
site did not charge that with being a tyrannical system, but
when it was proposed to improve the condition of the people
it was said no, they were not fit to be entrusted with more

power.
After a few observations by Lord ELLENBOIIOUGU,
Lord HOLLAND was surprised at the sentiments which
he had heard from Noble Lords on the opposite benches.
Were they to be told It England, with its representative
Government, where the people had the power to tax them-
selves, that to grant such a power was to establish a tyranny ?
—(Cheers.) And to tax themselves for what ? For their own
advantage and their own concerns. He repeated, he was
astonished at the speech be had heard. He thought he had
been living under a free representative popular Government ;
one in which the people had a large share in the transaction
of their own business—a Government includino. three great
kingdoms, England, Scotland, and Ireland. °Every one of
the speeches which he had heard to-night from the Noble
Lords opposite, had for their object to show that one great
third of this empire was unfit, was incapable, of being go-
verned by a popular, free, and elective Constitution. It had
been said also, that the Bill would have the effect of substi-
tuting one exclusive system for another. An extraordinary
signification might be given to the word " exclusive." He
taught it meant that which kept out a great body, and ad-
mitted only a part ; but, according to the interpretation of
certain Noble Lords, it appeared that the principle which
admitted the whole was exclusive.—( A laugh, and cheers.)
If one-eighth was kept out, and seven-eighths were admitted,
that was termed exclusion.—(" Hear, hear," from the Duke
of Wellington.) " Hear," said the Noble Duke. What was
his meaning? Did he think that the whole notion of free
Government was founded on false principles ?—( Hear, hear.)
The manner in which the Noble Duke cheered, and his whole
course of argument, proved to him, beyond a doubt, that such
were the opinions entertained by the Noble Duke. He thought
that for the majority to have power, particularly ifAhey con-
scientiously differed in religious sentiment from the minority,
that was exclusion. What was that but being opposed to the
principle of free government. If there happened to be a ma-
jority one way, was public opinion to prevail, or was it not?—
(Hear, hear.) Yet if it did, the Noble Duke said it was ex-
clusion. Public opinion might be wrong, it might be tyranni-
cal—he did not deny that a majority might be tyrannical; but
for the majority to have the power was the principle of a .!ree
Constitution—a free Constitution could not exist without it.
He denied, however, that the Bill did give that exclusive
power ; it made no distinction between Protestant or Catholic,
Orangeinan or Repealer—it gave to the people of Ireland that
which was their own. It was now proposed not to ablish
all. the Corporations, and it was thought, under the circum-
stances, it would be most wise to support the amendment now
before their Lordships. He preferred the Bill as it originally
stood, but nevertheless he must admit, that in point of judg-
ment, ss isdom, and justice, there was a material difference be-
tween the amendment and the motion, which otherwise stood
for the consideration of the House. By voting for the motion
of his Noble Friend, their Lordships would possibly give to
two or three towns in Ireland a more democratical form of Go-
vernment than they thought advantageous, but that was the
full extent of the error which they would commit ; by adopt-
irig the other motion, and saying to the people of Ireland,
" You are unfit for popular elections," what a strange and
pregnant principle would they not act upon ! Would they ad-
dress Ireland in such language as this—" You are unfit to be
trusted—we not only wilt not give you that which we have
given to Scotland and England—not only do we think that
you are not ripe to enjoy the frnits of free Government, and
that England and Scotland were—not only do we think that,
but we do not see any prospect of your ever becoming so.
Hear, bear, hear.) We will not give you a chance.
Wo say that you shall not go into the water, because you
cannot swim ; and we wish to confine you • on the dry
strand eternally, in order to prevent you from trying to swim."
The influence of the priests was dreaded ; but could it be 'Sup-
posed that to raise men in a humble station to offices of some
little distinction would have the effect of materially adding to
the influence of the priests ?—( Hear, hear.) So, again, with
regard to the agitators, he thought he could prove that no-_
thing was so strong-sighted as to fancy that by shutting out
the " agitators," they destroyed their influence. The real
method of rendering powerless those who were carrying on
that species of legitimate warfare against them would be by
adopting the principles of this Bill ; to reject it, would be to
show a disproportionate degree of suspicion and distrust of
the Irish people, arid not to extinguish that evil of which
they pretended to be in such a state of serious apprchen-
sion.—( Cheers.) •
The Duke of WELLINGTON admitted that he had been
somewhat out of order, perhaps, in cheering the Noble Lord
as he had done, and therefore might have dei;erved the Noble
Lord's rebuke; but he believed it was by no means unusual
for Noble Lords to cheer particular observations under such
circumstances. He hoped the Noble Lord well(' himself not

f esset. the Focep,-; which lie laid down.. •
died the Bill tyrannical, because it gave ,
scdption of persons ; because it gave -to the
eLeted by that description of -persons the, pee,
property belonging to another description of persons,
ticularly referred to in another Act of Parliament.
L ird II OL LAND assured the Noble Duke that he
not mean to complain of his interruption ; and still less did
intend to rebake him for what was a very natural expression
of his opinions.
Lord LYNDHURST said the Noble Marquis had advanced
against him three charges, which • were -equally unreasonable
and untenable. In the first place, he would ask the Noble
Marquis and the House whether it was not the invariable cus-
tom to postpone the title as well as the preamble of a Bill to
the last, until the nature of the Bill itself was clearly known
and established ? As the Noble Marquis had mentioned the
point, however, he would inform him that if the amendment;
he (Lord Lyndhurst) should have the honour to propose
should be agreed to, as he trusted they Would be, he should
submit to the opinion of the Committee a title for the Bill cor-
responding to those amendments, which title, he hoped, would
be adopted. Again, the Noble Marquis had appeared to con-
ceive that he had given an exaggerated statement of the de-
gree of agitation which prevailed in Ireland, but on this point
he had stated no facts in which he was not amply borne out by
Noble Lords and others hest acquainted with that country, and
by the report of the Intimidation Committee. The Noble
Marquis had, moreover, charged Noble Lords on his (Lord
L.'s) side of the House with a desire to strip the Corpora-
tions of Ireland of their property. This was a charge which
came well from the parties whose own measure put a cop-
plete extinguisher upon all the Corporations and cAn.
pletely stripped therb of their property.—(Opposition cheers.)
It was admitted on the other side, that such was the intent
and object of the original Bill. The only question was, what
might be the best substitute for the present Corporations ?
Noble Lords opposite wanted to reconstruct corporate bodies
throughout Ireland, whose constitution would produce greatly
aggravated mishicfs. He (Lord Lyndhurst) on the other
hand, wished to substitdte a plan of town government, which,
While it put an end to all the evils of the present corporate
system in Ireland, was amply sufficient to serve every good
purpose. —( Hear, hear.) This was the point in issue between
them. -There was in Ireland a minority of one quarter of the
population of English descent, speaking for the most part
the English language, of English customs and habits, and
professing the Protestant religton. This minority of one
quarter of the population of Ireland was a party standing by ne-
! cessity on the defensive.—( Hear, hear.) On the other
hand, there was a vast. majority of the population, of alien
descent, as far as the English were concerned, speaking a
different language, of totally different customs and habits,
'professing a different religious faith, and who regarded us as -
invaders and oppressors, whom they would readily expel as
soon as possible. This was the state of things in Ireland, and
it was a state of things which rendered it the imperative duty
of the House to take care that the weaker party should not be
made the victims of that party which it was the object of the
Noble Lord's -original sill to place in power.—( Opposition
cheers.) The Coercion Bill of Noble Lords opposite, the Con-
stnbulary Bill, which were so necessary for the prevention of
the tumults and disorders and atrocious crimes which were so
prevalent in Ireland, clearly exhibited how different was the
state of things in that country and in this.---( Hear, hear. )
The whole result of such a Bill as that brought from the
other House would be merely the substitution all over
Ireland pf oftadical corporations where there were now
Tory corporations—of Roman. Catholic corporations where
there were now Protestant corporations; and whether
this was a result to be desired he would leave it to
the House to judge.—(Opposition cheers.) When the
Act of Emancipation was sought, the Legislature was told
that nothing further would be required to insure the Inappi-
ness and the tranquillity of Ireland. Yet what was the ease ?
Since that time the Church there had been cut down, and a
further attempt had been made to rob the Establishment, and.
to apply its property to the " moral and religious instruc-
tion" of the Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) In addition
to this, the present Government had put down bodies of men
who were associated defensively for the protection of Pro-
testant life and property—he alluded, of course, to the Orange
Society.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) Now they were put-
ting down Protestant Corporations, and in place of theta they
wanted to erect a host of Roman Catholic bodies. The next
step, he presumed, would be to establish the Catholic religion
as the religion of Ireland, and the Protestant religion
would be considered that of a mere sect.—(CheerS from
the Opposition.) It was said that the same principle which
put a final end to Corporations, and the eternal elec-
tions attendant upon them, might equally be applied to
Parliamentary representation; and that if Corporations wee
discontinued the tenure of the House of Commons was in
danger; but, as had been accurately remarked, there was n
analogy between the cases. The House well knew that th
elections in Ireland were all under the controul and gpidanc
of the priests ! that their mandates were irresistible, and the.
no man dare disobey their orders as to the disposal of his vote
except at the peril of property—nay, of his life.—( Opposition
cheers.) By acceding to the Bill which came from the other
House, their Lordships would be establishing a host of clubs
of agitation, tumult, and sedition throughout Ireland, and the
result would be appalling. —( Loud cheers from the Opposition. )
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said a few words in expla-
nation.
Lord LYNDHUP‘ST having replied,

The Committee divided upiin the Duke of Richmond's
amendment.

Contents

Non-contents
Alajority against his Grace's amendment
The clause as amended, was then agreed to.
Clauses up to 37 was then agreed to.
The House resumed, and immediately adjourned at a quit-
ter to ten.