The Sun.
London, England, 1814-04-30 00:00:00

DULWICI! COLLEGE MIL.

Lord HoLLAND,Iii moving the second reading of
this Bill, thought it accessary to state the grounds
and object of it, as much pains bad been taken
to prepidiee their Lordships' mind against it.—
Tbis College was fonnded in 1619, by William
- • •
Alleyn, who was a Fellow of it. During
his lifetime the Master was a married layman, and
until six years after-his 'decease, The present.Sta-
tote, which bound the Master, to celibacy, was
mq established. This Statute it was. the object
of the present Bill to reptl. As the Master was)
by the ,Statutes, elected from among persons of
the, name qf Alleyn, and vas to be chosen within
14 days- from the death of .his predecessor, froM
the restriction of the office to an unmarried man
being joined;to this, a perspn was not %infrequent-
ly;chosen, quite unlit for the office.• Scandal had
arisen from celibacy, and other abuses, which
might be verified in the Committee. The House
had 'a recent precedent in the case of Wadhatn
College, and more ditant ones in the case of all
the other Colleges in the- king-dcriu, whose MaSterS,
formerly celibate, were now'nertnitted to marry;
His Lordship concluded by moving, that the Bill
be read a second time.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH protested against the principle of
the Bill. •

The Duke of NORFOLK said, that if any alteration were
male in the Institution, in support of which Mr. Alleyn had
left his poisessionS, that property'should be given to his heirs
at law.--,The precedent Of Wadham College was a bad one—

It'd the teakiti tie Ilea& Of the Coileges at the MI vefsitit kof
hecumetaarried men, was, because they had 174mcrly 16 ti
Priests. •

The Earl of LIVERPOOL should Oppo"e't the Pill* 0-,
though the principle was ohjeetiottable.file should IS able,
on the Committee, to decide on the,particolar
Lord GRENViLLE supported the of the Wad-,
ham College Act,' and:thought the I.Z.gialatni•e Competent tei
the abolition of gros abases in charitable and piom
Lions.

Lord ELDON thoitg-ht the matter shouldbe and I
some amendment migut be made in the preinoble.
The Bill was read ft, seeond times and ordert4 to. he coat,
mitt" J oa Monday se'nnight. who aLtend, to I.a.e
roiees;--Adjourned.to Monday.

MOUSE OF:COMONS.
Sir P. M
- BURDETlVres'ented a Petition respeding tfo
tere,sts of sonic persons atrecte4l by tte,,propysed Nc Ps,it,
Oilier.

The New Post-07fiee Bill was Ordered to be read a second
time to-Morrow.

SLAVE TRADE:
In the abisence of Mr. WI t0.404;,,'Mr. S'iErriEN. said,
that be rose, on his behalf, tO give notice. of a motion (-
Tuesday next, Inc au address to the Prince Regent, prayjn4
the exercise of his influence, in tha negociations for a Gene-
ral Peace, to'obtain a general engagement for the final
of the Slave Trade. His Hmi. Fricnd Lad intended id
give his notice yesterday, but came down too taro,
The Cordage Bill went througli the Committee; to be re-
ported on Monday.
Mr. THORNTON moved for an extension of thmnotion of
yesterday, for accounts respecting the NationaL DOA:
The Light-house Bill went throng!' the Ctinutiittee, • ,
NORWAY. . .
- - '

Mr. C. WYNe.N.K diti not desire to knoin any
thing that belonged peetiliarly to2Government ;: but only to
pot a qUestioareNiecting oiir situation with Norway. He
had asked Yesterday, whether we were in a state of peace or
'war thatcountry;.and the answer was rtnerely.that 110.,
thing was known of Nin•Was, but as part of the doniinions
either of Denmark or Sweden. We did nut recognise tha
'French republic for some years, but We were afterwards its
peace with that power forseverai mouths. What he partica-
larly,wished to.know was, whether the question was decided,
by the issuing of orders to prevent intercourse with Norway.
If no such decisive steps had been taken, the matter' was open
td negotiation. He did'not desire to'-press for a premature
answer, but wished for something satisfactory. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be was
glad to be able to give an answer to his inquiry; This Go-;
remittent:, iii concert with Sweden and the Allies, had issued
orders for the blockade of Norway.

The Corruptiou of Blood and'-the:creagon. T3ills were re,
ported; to,be.read a third time on'l'll'oday, if engrossed.
SIMPLE CONTr.ACT:
On the motion for leaving tti'Chair, Serjeant
BEST opposed the Bill. }LIM& the'highest
spect. for the talents and of "tire -Bon;
Member who introduced it ; 'but he could not
agree to, alter the law, without strong and, con-
Nincing reasons. In the present case. these were
not given. it wai,true .that the. debts might go
unpaid, yet the' alterations proposed would not
defeat injustice. The present law was, of high
antiquity. The cases -of apparent hardship arose
chiefly from the:neglect of the par-ties, who might
generally get that species, of security which would
be chargeable upon the estate of- the debtor. In

the event of 34tering the law, attempts would be
made after tbe debtor's death to obtain what,
during his life, would not have been-attempted.
There might be tnuehinischief, too, in increasing
the disposition to give,largc credit. He who he-
sitated to call on his debtor for n jest security, was
generally one who,. in his conscience, did not feel
lie had a just claim. Alter various objections, the
Learned Member moved the .postponlquent'al the
Bill to 'that day six months. •

Mr: PRESTON argued in fAvour of the Bill, anti
gave 'variotis instances of the 4rdship of the
,
;sting laws, such as the cases of men 'lying and
wiifullydetraucting creditors, of others dying sud-
denly, of others rn a state of insanity, &c.
great
mass of business was occasioned in Chan-
cery by these circumstances. There surely could
be nothing unfit in doing- towards creditors what
the debtor hitnselt would have t4one if he could.
The Bill proceeded upon the principles of justtee,
and he found no conclusive argument against it.
Sir .AaTnua PIGOTT was a humble but sincere
supporter of the present proppsition, whith was
plain, simple, hottest, anal incapable of refutation.
That be, who had Vroperty and o cntracted debts.
should not pay them, was what:lie:could not corn-
preliend-;--it was against all justiceand connienee,
He was disposed, with all his respect for thelaws,
•to take this second opportunity of redeeming tits:
laws of his country front reproach. For 150
years after die passing of the law, it was ire the
power of persons to. dispo4e of property to
strangers, to defraud creditors by specialty, and
to disappoint posterity-,-even disappint .creel:
tors to whom the. lands were responsible. Prom
1540 we came down_to 1631,, before any think
material was enacted towards lessening the evil,
when such disposition of property was declared
fraudulent. His opinions au this subject had
never varied since he had any ,knowledge of
the law, or .powers of reflection; and he
had never heard or read any argument-to change
them in the slightest degree. The law .ought.
not to remain as it was. If a man did nut transact
business on parchment, without his attorney at
his elbow, and his wax and seals, and seeing his
debtor's signature and seal,, it was in the power
of the debtor to die in possession of twelve times
the amount of his debts, and totally to disappoint
his-creditors : and this shameful conduct fell with
'the greatestLseverity_ou
.honest and industrious
mechanics and tradesmen, to the ruin of them.,
selves aid their taMilies. The „great capitalist Who
lent twenty thousaud .pounds, not- beso.dealt
with,: he sought, and could obtain other secu-
rities. The losses of the 'honester.alitor were nut
always - through wilful fraud; they arose some-
times through thtdebtor's ignorance. It was said,
" Let.us have no theories, but let us legislate only
upon proved evils, and with a view to practical
good:" This was very proper ; but were there
no instances of the evils protium& by the present
system ? It would he invidious to allude to particu-
lar cases: but he', and many others who ai fended
Courts of Equity, knew how many creditors Mid
been disappointed, and lost. their'claims of simple
contract, though they were as just as any other ,
legal claims could be,. Was this fit to he coo-
tinned ? instead of the surprise some seemed to
feel at the present motion, he was only surprised
that the law had been suffered to remain to this
day-7that in this commercial and enlightened
country he should have 'lived to the vear,lBl4.,
tinder the existence of: a law, by which. a )•rian
might diispose (Otis property as he plea,..,ed, with-
out paying his iast debts. He had observed the
incongruities, this law occasionted in Courts of
Equity. The state of things was so. extraordinary,
that Chancellors had. been abliied to resort to .
strained constructions 4if wills to make a testator
•do justice tb his creditors. This had been the case
front Jefieries; in Jungs the Sec() ;40., down to Lord

itos.Airt andlik,anlry, It was so with:Lords XI ft ,
k?v4perr M acclestiv id, ilardwicke: And Thur!our ;'
nil ,vent as fat• as' they could in patting a construe-
lion on Wills, so as to do the. Creditors justice, re-
gretting that They"eould not do it more effectually.
Young heirs might have,zt facility of getting into
debt ; it was to be regretted; butowas that an in-
convenience equal to that which was sought to
remove ? Tht support of
,The Aristocracy of the
country was spoken of as concerned„ in this law.
e,ouid not believe it. They would disdain
'spell a suppom No 'Nobleman's son but would
revolt at the idea. of holding the fee simple,
while his ears,were
,assailed by The just tries of
his laTher's unfortunate and deluded creditors.—
In this country, the fact was, that men might ac-
cumulate as Much property as they could keep
clear of the funds, lay it ,out in land, and laiigh at
siaiple contract creditors. This might 'be clone by
all the 'contractors and jobbers;, of whom it had
been .said, that their " palaces rose like •exhalae
tiOtis, and their equipages shone like meteors ;"
and they might disappoint and deceive Their ere •
• ditors, and leave their property to their bastards
and their mistresses ! He never gave a vote with
snore satisfaction in his life than he shduld do
for this Bill e, and it be had the slightest weight
in any quarter that could assist it, lie would give
it his bumble but strenuous recOanmendation..,
Mr. AVF.T ERELL, could not agree with the con-
• elusions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
spoke last, He considered that an innovation ,of
this nature' would lead" to'a considerable extent in
other branches of the lawl. • It could not be said
that there was any, practical idepnvenience in this
respect, existing now, which bad not existed for
300 years.. It •might as' well be contended,-. in
.point of morality, that a commission of bank-
• ruptcy might be awarded after the death of the
trader: As far as-regarded trade, the landed pro-
perty of every trader was subject to his debts. liy
strict morality, a parole contract to sell an estate
should be, binding; but the law, for motives of
general policy, nade all 'such,conteacts void, art-
less reduced to writing. It was iii :the same man-
. per a'bfeach of morality in a man not to pay his
simple contract debts ; but the question of mora-
lity was blended by the law with the question 'of
public. policy.. The law.had, in many instances,
made a marked distinction between land and mo-
ney. In the disposal of land by- will, a certain
, number of witnesses were required, which-was not
necessary for the disposal of personal property. He
Ayes afraid, that innsilking land liable to simple con-
_ tract debts, it would beletting in debts of a spurious
and immoral description. He thOught that the
berm that would he done by letting in•frandulent
and dishonest claims would -be at best_ equal to
the good. produced
.by letting .in the fair and bona
fide debts. In fact, those who lent Money to per-
so-ns possessed of real 'property, almOst always
took care to get securities. The only class of
people that had to complain were tradesmen:fur-
niShitig goods, and who' by the sudden death of
their debtor might lose their debts. It would be
hard, however, to allow gaMing 'debts, and others
of an extravagant and improper nature, which
could not be authentiCated against a MO in' his
, life-time, to be a lien on his 'estate after his
death, when there was do longer any meat's of
• resisting them. It this Bill 'waswpassed`, a great
limey others would become necessary on the saute
principle, and the statute'of frauds lutist also un-
dergo an alteration.
Mr. STEPHEN thought that his Honourable and
Learned Friend (Sir A. Pigott) had very properly.
put the question on that moral feeling which he
had sce happily expressed. He had put it on the
broad moral ground that justice required every,
Man to pay his debit, He did not thinlethat any
question of coevenience should be put into the
-scale agaiusti moral rightor wrong. The same ob-
jections, that had. now been made, might as well
have, been offered against the -4ct which passed for
snaking the real property of traders liable to their
debts, or Co the Act respecting frandulent devices.
Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. We-
therell) wean to Isa*y, that civil and judicial policy
were pot founded on moral pfincipleg ? The Statute
of fraints ha.; by means seeidfieed morality to
• principle. Its intention was not toprotect•dishonest
men from the
.necessity Of performing their con-
tracts, but to protect honest Anus from pretended
contracts which-they had never made. It was to
protect them from contracts surreptitiously set up
against Them, which the law, under certain en.-
eumstances, presumed that they never had -really
snide. It was The seine principle An • which the
statute of limitations was founded. It was not to
protect men from paying their debts,- hut from
having debts trumped up against them at a dis-
tantitimc, which were probably fraudulent. The
law, therefore, did not mean, that, alter a certain
number of years, persons . should. not pay their
debts ; but it presumed, after a certain number of
years, that the just debts were paid. He could.
not see why every other description of
.property,
stiould be let in for the payment of-simple con-
tract
.debts; but that land alone . should be ex-
empted. As to those rapacious claims against.
young heirs,
,the creditors, in such la'ses, were,
generally secured by bonds and specialties.' It.
was not. 'merely tradesmen' who suffered in-
' convenience, by the law as it now stands. A
breach- of trust.. was considered only a simple,
contract debt, add, therefore, could not be recover-
ed against the land ; awl, therefore, a fraudulent.
executor, getting-possession of the property of
others, anti purchasing ,estates for himself with
the money, might. involve
_an innocent family.in
ruin, without any hope of redress.
,If it broker
was, to, sell out 10,0001. stock for another person,
and die possessed, of only landed estates, the own-
• ers of the stock must lose it all. This was cer- •
tainly a monstrouS, hardship, and:.conld not be
,supported on any ground of public policy. The
landed interest certainly deserved to be upheld
with greot respent, but lie was sur, that they did
knot want .any support that was contrary to cOM-
Intlll, justice. In the Colonie,s, however, land).
well as ;.he _slaves upon it, wcr:2 liable to simple
conceived,
,that if web 4
e contract debi.4. • Heconceived,
ine,"„,e:A:44as toW proposed had not before been
passed" into a it was 'principally because the
attention' of Parliament had not been seriously
callol to the.,:stibject. •
LocKnatt had previously felt great doubt
on the sehjeet,, blitlwas,. convinced. by the able.
arguments of the Honourable anti Learned Gen-

00110 w'ho spo'Ke AS Viell 6§ tbAt,
the Honourable Mover had used, that the pro,-
pOsed measure was proper. He bad made parti-
cular inquiries at the master's office, whether; in
the cases where men in their wills direct that their
debts should .be paid, there were any ,of the in-
conveniences found, which bad now been stated-, of
spurious tind fraudulent debts being established
against' the property 'of the deceased. The san-
swer that he receis4f from those, who had the
best means of knowing the fact,, was, that they
never kne'V of arty such inconveniences.- On this
subject„ the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
who spoke last, must, frOm his•situation, be con-
sidered a great anthOrity.
The SOLICITOR-GEt"PRAL said, that. although
he felt the greatest respect and 'deferenet 'to the,
• opinimiS and anthorities of the Honourable and
Learned Gentlemen who had spoken on the othef'
side, yet.he felt it his duty to declare; that his
'opinion differed from theirs altogether. He
thought that this would be removing one of the
great lapdmarks of freehold property, in its de-
scent from the ancestor to the 'heir. In one in-
stance, landed propertY had already been made
liable to simple contract debts.' As to the statute
of fraudulent devices, that was' only restoring AO
the cl'Ortot:s the lien Which-they had by the com-
mon law before the passing ofthe Act Of IlefiryVlll,
Belpre that /let, the creditor bad* hY'statute7staple
;and by bond alien on the lands of the debtor. The
Act of, Henry VIII. by allowing Men to dispose of
'theirestates by away th is lien „and the Act
'of 111. only restored it. -This, therefore,
:was no innovation on the -common I-aw. As to
simple contract debts; however, they never had-
'been su chargeable: The 'law had in in any.il)-,
stances made a' clear distinction between land and
other property. Alin4t every body was so far
acquainted with the law, that in giving credit,
they knew thdt they were trnstingto the personal
security of their debtor merely, and that they had
-no hold upon his lands. Although among traders,
• credit was necessary for the purposes 'of coin-
naerce, yet there NOS no such necessity for en-
couraging more credit 'to be giVen-to persons MI6
were not tradprg. 'The very facility 'of 'obtaining
credit was often the means of tempting them td
extravagance. He therefore
,thought that such
an innovation should not be made in unr-law
without the fullest and uros, sevious considera-
tion. -

Mr. D. GIDDY said a few words against the
Bill.

Sir S. ROMILLY sKid, that as the law stood at
present, *sons having claims aguiust.those who
died indebte4l to them, and who were in posses-
sion of real estates, were obliged to institute a
suit in Chancery in order to make . such estates
equitable a;sets for the payment of debts, which
was attended with very heavy expenses. It. bad
long been the wish of all the Judges, that landed
estates should he liable as legal assets as well as
equitable assets, and •the passing of this Bill would
answer all the pUrposes,, and save immense ex-
penses. , After the full discussion the Bill had un-.
dergone, he would not take up more of the time
of-the House.

•
A division took place on the question, that the
Speaker do leave the chair.—Ayes. 61—Noes 37.
The Bill then ►went through a Committee.—
Report on Monday. .