The Sun.
London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

WESTMINSTER, ELECTION.

Lord FOLKSTONE presented a Petition from Win.
Drake, now in NeWgate,- stating his grief and moiti-
fication on hearing that the House had declared him
guilty of wilful falsehood, and gross prevarication,
When examined at the Bar of the House, touching
the allegations in the Petition of James Paull; Esq.
against the Right Hon. Richard Brinsley Sheridan.
Btu as the Petition contained no confession of the
guilt charged upon .the Petitioner, nor expression of
contrition for it, the Speaker acquainted the Noble
Lord, that it was contrary to the praAice of the
House to . take any measures of lenity upon such a
Petition. The Petition was then ordered to lie on
the table, until one in a more-corre& krm .could be
PrePar'gd,

DISMISSAL OF THE LATE MINISTERS.
:air• BRAND rose, pursuant to his notice, to sub-
. 44 a motion to the House upon a -subjeet'of great
national moment. As the question to which his mo--
t'°ll related was one of vast constitutional ina-
Portahce, it was a matter of- real and unfeigned re-
Wet to him, that such a. subjeft had fallen -into th.)
hands' of one who. was peculiarly unfitted by,abili-
ties to give validity to his arguments... He had hoped,
that he could-have supported the feelings of anxiety
which the difficulty of such a task must excite ; but
Unaccustomed as he was to public debate, he was
then conscious of his inability, and of the necessity
of bespeaking the -indulgence of the Chair, and of
the House, an indulgence Which was never with-
held. He trusted that they would not attribute the
This
of the advocate to the cause he defended.
Ibis cause was the cause of the Constitution. Pre-
vious to the recess, publicity had been given to a
statement of the series of circumstances which gave
rise to the late change, full, luminous, and to him
satisfatiory. This statement had enabled him to
form a judgment of the great chara6ter of the late
Administration, which had pntitled them to the
confidence of that House, and of the condu& of•
those who had advised-bit Majesty to-dismiss them
from office. In the cow s& of the late Ministers
he saw every thing to admire, and the COuntry, -he
could say, felt their dismissal with the deepest rej
gret. When be had. given his. notice, it was his
intention to move a Resolution expressive of the
sense 'a the .House on that • conduCt, becanse he
Was anxious, by such a Resolution, to stop the pro-
gres&of the calumnies that were circulated with
such glaring falsehood and persevering effrontery.
(le felt the value of public charaderiar7d was con=
.linced that public worth was public security; Hi:.
Original °hied was to bring forward such a Resolu-
tion, but when upon more mature refle&ion he carne
to analyze the subjea,.and to view it in all' its bear-
ings, he thought it his-duty to confine his 11,Totion*
within narrower limits.- When he perceived hat
pledges-had been demanded from the hue Ministers
which were dangerous to the Constitution, from c it
to the interests-of the Country, and subversive -of
the prerogatives of the. Crown; he felt himself bound
tip confine his Motion- to that point. The, advice to.
°ls Majesty to demand from his Ministers a written
Pledge. that they would abstain from giving him ad
vice upon subjeds of importanee to the security; of
the Empire, must have originated with persons who
hadno regard to the rights of that House, nor the
Prerogatives of the Crown. His Majesty - had full
discretion to dismiss his Counsellors, and to choose.
Others in their place, but, he could not limit -the
range of advice which they might give him, and. for
,wllich they-were to be- responsible according to -the -
Constitution. Where- were they-to look for respoo;
sibility for- misrule; misconduct, or mismanagement
of the public affairs, if such a pledge were to be '
given ? Where was blame to attach for grieVances,
onon,which •Ministers might have given a pledge
414 to give any advice to' his, Majesty ? , Ministers..

• Mr. LAMBE, in rising to second the Motion of,
_lbis Hon. Friend, though
,he should not at any time
abstain from expressing his sentiments upon such a
radical constitutional question, yet should not feel it
necessary to trespas long upon the attention of the
House, if the statement of his lionoUrable Friend
had been less clear or legs satisfadory than it had
been to him. Though the question was import-
apt, it appeared to him . to be in the smallest
compass. He should state in what it consisted. Be-
fore the recess, it appeared that the rumours which
bad agitated the public mind were founded in fact,
and that his Majesty's. late Ministers having ex-
pressed their" intention to aEt as their situation and
-their oaths requit-ed, had been dismissed, became th/
refused to abdicate their duty of advising hil Ma-
jesty under all circumstances, upon subleds con-
ne6ted with the preservation of the dignity of the
Crown and the safety of the Country. He had re-
gretted the Adjournment, because, in his' mind, a
doEtrine struck a blow at the Constitution, and was
subversive of the principles of our Government, and
he thought that .House. would renounce its rights, if
it delayed to pronounce its opinion Uponso unCotlSti•
tutional 'a proceeding. But upon furth6r considera.
tion, he thought the adjournment was proper, be-
• cause it would lead more clearly and explicitly to the .
t adoption of the Resolution by a larger majority, anti
because such Resolution would have the more weight.
if asiiented to after a more mature deliberation. • The
King, in the exercise of the fundions of his Govern-.
rh6nt,' has the. aid of the Great • COuncil of the Na
Parliament. But.for the purpose of secrecy,
a large diScretionary power is vested in the Crown,:.
assisted by his Privy Council, and, on late occasions,
though not necessarily so, by.his more secret and.
confidential advisers in the Cabinet, who are respen.•
sible to the Public, This arrangement. conibined.the
secrecy and dispatch of an arbitrary Government,
with the publicity and responsibility of a Republican
Government. In case of such a pledge beihg given
As that alluded to in the, Resolution, what secarity-
cottld the People have ? The truth of the Reaolu-
tion'may be obvious, but when fundamental princi-
. ples are attacked, it became necessary to declarethem.
The People possessed a security in the vigilance•of
their RepresentatiVes, but under the operation of
such a pledge, many erroneous measures might be
adopted which Parliament could not' afterwards re.
medy, and many good measures be omitted which
Parliament could not afterwards supply. What Sel.
curity had- the Country that measures would not be
entered into ignorantly, perversely, and blindly, but
the confidence that theatfiirs of the Government
were to be carried on by Ministers of virtue pnd
tegrity ? The oath of secrecy kept their particular •
motives and. condu6t from view. Sir Edward Coke
had said, that, in the quaint language of the times,
it .was the wish of one of the greatest. tyrants that
had-ever sat upon the Throne of England, Henry
V 41,. that his Privy Councillors shOuld leave all si-
mulation and dissimulation to the. perter's lodge,.
when they came to Council. In his remark upon
-this, he had said that the truth and the whole truth
alone should reach the Royal ear. But what was
to be the security of the. People of this Country, if
the 46trines now broached should be established.
The country and the Parliament might say_to them-
selves, that his Majesty's Miniiters were carrying
• on their measures for reasons knowo to them, but
which they could not divulge consistently With their
. oaths as Privy Councillors.—What, however, would
• be the fad Ministers might .1:1ke doing that which
they knew to be wrong, and omitting that Which
they knew to be right,, because, by their pledge,
they would have tied up their hands and their
tongues, and not be in possession of the means of
.;fulfilling their. duty, or complying with tlieir oaths.
On this ground he supported the Resolution. lf
'such a do6fr4Je as that of the pledge requiled were
to• be allowed to pass, or to be sanctioned, the
Con-
stitution would be at an. end. Ministers might be
'filen of rant And talets, but by signing *Lich a

' pledge, they would rcelgii their duty es he'eest
Councillors of the Crown ; and if the House were
to sit silent on i
such a question, it would abandoh
that Constitution which t was its pride, its duty; and
its glory to maintain', to preserve, and to defend.
The question was then put from the ChaireWhetf
General CRAWFURD rose, and declared hiinself
particularly anxious to explain the motives by which
• his tote would be influenced. It was impossible to
discuSi the-Motion separately from the nieasnre that
was the cause of the reerioVal.Of ':hiS Majesty's late.
Mini4ers, because that removal had led to the pre•
sent Motion. I- e should not, however, enter into
.any discussioricifThe Catholic Question, as manyfar
. more competentehanhirn would corilder that .pert
• of the subje&. He should confine himself to the
present Motion, and that part 'Of the conduct of
his Majesty's late Ministers, which insidiously led' -
to ferce'his Majesty's conscienee. 'With respect to
the scruples in his Majesty's tireeSt,-oh the Catholic
`Question, they were long lcuPern to rest- . on cOn-
scientieus groultds, both in a religious andeonstitti;•
tional sense. , His doubts existed as Well to the
latitude in which . his Coronation Oath was to be
understood, as the influence it,may 'have upon the
welfare and liberties of the Enipire. Any Measure •
infringing upon these scruples should not have been
brought forward, but under-an irresistible necessity.
Care shcitild be-taken that the extreme urgency ex-
isted. - It behoved his Majesty's. Ministers' to enter
in the fullest possible manner into all its various'
views and bearings, and to render all misconception:
' or misunderstanding impossible; on 'the part of the
, • Crown. If in the, progress of the -measure any fur-.
ther extension may have been deemed' necessary,
the same minute explanation ought to have been
resorted to, in order to prevent the possibility of
a misconception on the Royal mind, 'He proposed
then briefly to notice, so far as a respeEtfuLregard to
the:time of the House would permit,. how far the
conduct of Majesty's late Ministers had been ►
strktly governed by these principles. They had
stated to the House that their measure had been
bi•ought forward for the purpose.of allaying the fere
tents in Ireland, and that his Majesty's approba-
tion of the Measure had been respectfully solicited.
Much had been said of the mischief, the-absurdity,
the inconvenience, and the anomaly, that the Irish
Aet of 1793 did not extend to this country. But no
case of inconvenience or of mischief had been made
out, so that, though the anomaly had so long ex-
isted, as no practical inconvenience -bad been felt,
the mischief was merely speculative. After a long
and earnest discussion, his. Majesty at length had
given a reluetant assent. Yet his reluetance,had not .1
arisen from any. disinclination on the part of his Ma-
,jesty to do justice to any class of his subjects, or to
consult the happiness of his people,. but from the,
little appearance of necessity there was.for the mea-;
sure, and the apprehension of the practical mischiefs
it would give rise to, by leading to claims'. and de- ,
mands which he should be compelled to resist. The
next stage of the business, the Hon ,General observed, •
, was the dispatches to the 'Lord. Lieutenant of Ire,
land, in which, if•in any other Case, the greatest ac-
curacy should have been observed, so as to confine
the terms of the dispatch to the extent,of his Majes-
ty's consent; the consent of his ,Majesty was, limit-,
ed, the 'contents of the dispatch was unlimited. He
could not conceive how such
_an inacctil,cy could
have been committed by.persons of such ability, who,
were •so well versed in business. The notice of the.
Noble Lord; stated the measure as opening certain
commissions to the Catholics; and this-2wes con-
formable
to his Majesty's consent,. aukto.the Irish
Aa,:of 1793. He left the House ; to determine
what,.had been the.,eause of the_ ditference. between
this 'notice and the dispatch, -Even the• Catholics
could not believe that his Majesty had consented to-
' the' full extent, of .the dispatch, When a commu-
nication 'had come over on the subject,. the Cabinet
'minute, to•which it had given rise, was 'sent down'
to his Majesty iii 'the ordinary way,,, without any i,
commenteto sltes, its nature, though the case was
then entirely-new, If it was necessaryOn Ministers
to explain the alteration in the first instance; it • was.
ten thousand times owe necessary then. The King,
either had not considered, the dispatch, or -withheld
all observation upon it till.he shetele.l have a.personal
interview with his Servants. When. his Majesty came
next to town, the",tirst communication of the ,new.
'Measureeeas made to him, and he t'hen signifie.d.his
unqUalitied disapprobation of it. The neeasere. Was,
howeveie brought foi ward under an impression that
his Majesty had not withdrawn his original' cement,
and•on his coming to town,in a few days, his Mrtjety,
found himself under a necessity of taking those rnea.;
sure, Which. he bad delayed as long: as possible. • He
never exercised any, influence- over any.one of his
Ministers as individual Members of his Cabinet.
He knows the• Constitution too well to do so. He
told them
„they should.either, withdrew: their coun-
teeance. from the measure, or themselves from hie
councils, A,deliberation ensued, in which his Ma,
jesty never retracted his original-. consent ; .he was
still ready. to abide by That, but the,Alinisters found
it impossible to modify the Bill, and give it up alto- ,
gether. , Here the matter might have rested, But
no; they brought. forward their stipulations—sti-
puletiens which his Majesty could not constitution-
ally agree, to. That part o the stipulations respeet-
ing their right to, advise his, Majesty from time to
1-, time upon this subject remained, entire, though the'
Bill had been withdrawn; .but, that, part which
claimed a right for Ministers to come down, clothed
'with their ministerial character, and support the Ca-
tholic Petition.. required what.his Majesty could trot '
do, It struck at that Royal branch of the Preroga-
tive,-which, though wisely given, ought to be sel-
dom exercised ; be meant the negative on the ads
of the other branches of the Legislature, This Pre-
rogative had 4-oneinto disuse from the K.,ing's Mi-
. 'sisters never countenancing any measure in that
house to which his Majesty. would. not assent, and
this put an end to the cdutests between the Crown

Mr. HALL, in- the- feW words he had to say,
, proposed to follow the-exemple of the Hon: Gene-
ral, by abstaining from any discussion of the merits
Of the Catholic Bill. ThOugh he •had'supportedthat
Bill, he thought the consideration- of it whollyirre.
levent to. the present question. • He- was sorry his
Majesty's late. 'Ministers lad consented to withdraw
ite•bet that Bill did not appear to him to haVe any
thing to do with their removal from office. It was
'their refusal to give a pledge not to advise his Ma-
jesty upon -that sebjed• that had caused their re-
:move' ; and if they had signed that pledge, there
was no disgrace and reproach which they would not
have-merited.. Such a pledgowOuld have made the
-King-absolute, andeemoved the responsibility of his
'Ministers. He approved of the measures of the late
Ministers, and • sincerely regretted their removal'
• from office ; but that regret might perhaps be
lighter if they had been succeeded
.by men of ta-
lents and abilities. But were not their successors
the dregs of a disgraced Administration ? Were they
not the-persons who had had the seals of office tier a
few hours, on a former occasion, in their possession,
and carried them • back again in ecknowledginent of
their own imbecility ? He wished :the House to
consider-what might be :the consequence pf their
Administration to Ireland. If they continued to ad
upOn the principles of-the system upon which they
had Come-in, their measures would lead to a separa.
jinn-cifthetwo 'couotries, Such would be the- con-
SetpeedeeS of the Admiuistration of those Who pro.
'fesse.d to come into office as the supporters of thn
' constitutional Prerogatives of the Crown, and the-
existing t stablishments in Church and State. •
Mt. WHITSHED KEENE contended . that
• was incompatible with the compad which placed
. the House: Ofe Brunswick on the Throne,for his
Majesty to demand such a pledge from-his Minis.
ters; and 'that it would have been . unconstitutional
in the late Ministers to have subscribed it. The
, Hon. Gentleman urged a variety Of,other arguments
iresupport oftthenesohition. • - • - .
Mr: .IPALTON -objedecl to the Motion -on two
greencis ; - the, one,- the . words in which it 'was
cotichede the- other, the line, of :argument which
'the' Hon. Seconder. had taken. He could not corn-
, plinient the Hon. Gentletnan on • Iris discretion in
juitiOtieg, that altherigh • Ministers ought not to
.consider' themselves- as under 'the-contrepl of the,
King, they Aught' -te consider themselves as under
the iconfroul of the. ffhile Bo?is.ot Ireland. The
Hon.'Gentleman by whom the Motion had been-se-
, epteled seemed to ground his support on 'the idea,
that when Noble-Lorda-and Gentlemen Were. called
' to-tire councils. Of his-Majesty, they had no power
to retreat,- but must-continue, in office whether -they
would or not. Another point on which he opposed'
the Motion was, that it was. incompatible wiiii the
wisdom of the House -to entertain- the diSeussion of
any ebstrea . propesitiore whatever. Many abstra&
propositions- Might be considered :incontrovertible;
except When,-they were applied to new cases e
aud.aurely, no case could be. more new, than that
an Administration shotdd lend its weight in Per,
'lament to-measures which bads pot only .not re-
eiVed the concuerence.i.)f the King, het to which
.bie-Mejesty had expressed an absolute repugnance.,
.He would suppose -a plain an pessible case--he
woeld suppose .that many. years ago Some Hunours •
able Gentleman had moved an abstrad resolution,
that.iu any. way le restrain the commerce of his' Ma,
jesty's-subjeas would be injurious to the comae,
and that it was the duty of Parliament to prevent
such an attempt. Snob 'a proposition would have
been good absteadedly considered, and yet .had _
not the ,Legislature recently restrained and gaps
lished one of the most important branches of come
merce ? No abstract proposition wits mere true,
than that
,it was highly criminal in subjects to4Lke
up arms against the
,Soverein.—But suppose that
. another King James the'Secorel wereeo artse, would
they nut be justified in-doing so ?-7-Ahy Uncoestite.
tional measure of-the King to restore Popery I.4etild
justify what would ktLrwise be. unjustifiable. Sup-
posing that the Kieg might hale Ministers, who,
by advising that Papists (acknewledging the power .
of a Foreign Potentate) should be admitted to the.
highest Offices of the State, should tacitly declaie
I the immediate ancestors of the King usurpers, sere,
~.

n

at case his Majesty would "be perfealr right
from such Ministers a promise that
advice-should not he repeated.
A tr. ,r,imßE exylained.
t .itr..T.AWICES declared, that in his opinion the
cp •simply—whether or not we were any
fo adhere to the British Constitution ? Under
-the.circuiostances of the ease, bethought that, his
3,-..l.jesty's Ministers had ailed discreetly in withdraw-.
'Roman Catholic-Bill -but he must- at the.
say,,t,hat abandoning the Bill they had.
p -1,1, all itie daerenee that Was doe to - the scruples
()t theaugust PersonagetwwfrosefeelingsTthe Bill was
r •000aht: they proceeded, one step. further,
!,ad .they signet.; :tly pledge .for their future conduct,
ihey Ceased- for one mornentrta be the unft.ittered
viler, of their Sovereign in the present stateof.the.
Empire, they would havehee„Opst-2heyond
01 redemption to all seise ofdecencyland_shatue,
1.)6 hat e,aeted in the tuosJ uncon7ititotional and un,-
j...tstifiable..nianner, The.fevonsibility of Ministers
Cie'securiti of the priNileges.of this country,and
di 4,lolonilted it front every, other. If those
were no longer- free-agents, where was: this Ter
soonstbdity to -be found ? If they tied themselves
)wn to, give that : advice to the, Crown which
,s!oteik.l- he palatable to. it, :in what -a state of (lan-
,ger- ini4ht. the count ry he placed!, He'. %Alai

retotiilbed, he was. terrified, at the language, of the
prosent day on this isubjed. How different, from
that of' the reign of William the 111. whose. Mi-
nisterwere.contrinually giving him advice that was
even personally disagreeable to, that,.Monarch, such
ter! instance, as to diichargp' his Du'..ch pards,, 4c.
hut who. were never dismissed: on that acconnt.--f
if once a Minister of :the Crown ivvere heard. in

Oh. House of Commons to. alledo in defence of
hit conduCl, that lie did not think himself
tiffed in offering. incompatible .advice to his &we-7-,
reZgn, adieu to the • BectiA Constitution'. If once'
this great land-mark wtrelost, all soon he
lost. "As to the uprightness of intention in an Au.:-
qua, PerSonacre, ,th uniform pra6tice.of 'bad
o
!:;utiiciently manifested it but the conviaiorti that he
fey of this fad- should never indute him th, surren-
der 'a single privilege.of .Constitution, that most
voidable .and; inestimable legacy of our forefathers. , ,

thelast month the inoq irocOnstitutional doctrines
had been generally circulated; whatever rnight.be the
fate of his flon. Friend's Motion; he was grateful to
hiin forhaving, by bringing forward ~enabled forwarenabled him
tolenter his:protest agains.t those do&rines. He had.
hitherto supported the -treasures of AdMinistmtion,
becau4e.he thought that those measureswere beneficial
to-the country. It had been said of that Administra,
t ion, that they had promised much and dOne nothing,
Winit l• was the suspension of taxation nothing ?
Wis the Abolition of the Slave. Trade,nothing .Was
the ainelioration of. the Seotch: Law nothing ? In
the :tut) ,possession of. power --was the det, rrpina7
tion to curtail patronage nothing ?- Was: the. 64N- -,
sit n so anxiously 'Manitested to heal the .wouri4-,

(4 Ireland,.nothing; • Pledges had-.frequet' ItTy been
g E.by. .public, .a p peft to . been
Ouen only q.o be broken; he trusted-that_rnlßwpql4,,
now bt fonn&whOwould.not.barWr th6rsonseienets •
f4rarty-ecttsideration. F:or,-hiim.4ll he. hii4.l)Gtiting
twhope orlear -; it was a matter of inciiifereuee,,to,
hit-n. by Whom the State was-goverhed, so it, was' go- ,
verned ..veil. arknowla;ivd.great itttlivi,lnoi •
ta;ents-,eloqdence, atid,Scuterifin . the npw,
nistratious but; et)niinced as he was,of the .prpme,ty
itis Hon.:. Friend's motion, he 'felt. bow).4:to, give
leis hearty assent -
- Mr. titilonatcE, ongerving that. the late,..l),l•inisters
cliartgedllle dieasur.e.thgrakiirAt•pr9-,
and that .th•fy ilaxtivot, as It was t;)o..ridttly, to
'explained:this change to their Sovereign,
knoved.the Oiler tq the Day. . • - ~•

the motion for pa-ssin,; to
Mr. BASTARD mtpporied
the:Order of Ole 111% • He thoughtithe ElN:qPght
not to seek for abstraa principles,: Int,
selves to the alts that had been committed. ,\ The
inade.by his... Majesty naturally arose
'the declar.ttion of shis Ministers. 13t-for.k?lie assented.
to the alsstrael question, therefore, be Must boshewni
, its applicabgity to the present case. •
Mr.lll, bil-ZGERA LD Was,. of opinion,that there
was not a single sentence in the Resolution, -nor a,
single part. of , the.conducl of Ministers, whichdet-o-;
g-,tted from the prerogativeblihe Crown-If the
rogutivniha&been infringe& it tudybeen infringod,.by
those wbo,would destoy the. respoinsiblity
stern..He enteird into nii examination ottho recent
proceeditigs. of the late Administration, and contend-
ed that had they acted diftereutly. tiwy would hate
been guilty of aderelidion of their trust. It
.was
an Administratiou of talentsf .ot. considLrqtigo,„atid.
possessing the confidence of. the,country. _ By every.
man in the empire, therefore; it,was to,be lamented
'that'the. services of,such ruen,.should be lost to the
country. He described the, state of Irela,tld as, vITY
bazardbus, -deprec.ated' the total ignotanoe„,an.l,e_yqn
he, fenced-, the apathy,on,this subje4, ankl.wislfe,d:lll#
was'of sufficient importance to rotoiQtne, ly,-;otion of
the. House to the consilleration :of .tlii,s,:question--,
namely--whether they °would command the services
of 4or Millions of people, or hazard' their enmity?'

Sir T. TURTON said, it was impossible not .to
see that the pre •o‘ e Of the Crown, was.attempted
to be invaded. A rcatedOal had beep said abrint the
pledge given in 1 /93 ; Ministers, however; had,not
Hesitated to postutn theredemption of-other pledges;
such a; for a Reforiti, for therneralqUeitionOfErna.n,
Cipition. Was it not their (int)! when they made an
alteration in,the measure, 'to explain 'it to the Sove,
reign with precision and accuracy ?, Wiint was the
nature of those alterations 'but an unequivocal and
entire repeal of the Test A-& ; • for the Thea Sore prd-
pOsed by the late"Adthinistration no 'rnore.reseinbled
the i.et of 1783 than darkness did light. By their
condua• they had placed the king in :tin-invidious
situation.; and by their declaration to himi had she Wit
.th6it readiness to throw upon theieSovereign all the
• obloquy Which might-result from future-;refusals to
grant the Citholie claim. In these circumstances
was not the King justified in requiring- to -promiSe
that he should not again be harassed
,on the sujed ?
He Was' confident that jail' appeal' to the House and
the Country,., in support'of the Royal, prerogatiye,
Vould be .successfully rdlide. • The supperters of-the
%,te Administration had said,. that it,Wati not'for 1)6-
:lit.'s:al speculators to offer-their invalid security to the
cnuniry: What, 'then, was, the Axistoeracjt of the
country solely to didate.? -Why sUppo,,ed his
Majesty's' present Ministers ,would- not, attend ,to he
interests-of the `Eppire at large, and particularly: to
keland ? -He did not like the-prophecies on this Itit-

ter subjeet, for prophets atways felt something lice a
desire that their prediaicins should be verified. 'rho
question before the House was, whether they WotilA
support the crown agairtsLthe attempts of an
.Ayi's-
toeracy that:4oold strike-at theroot of the 110'.;'al
prerogaavel, in the present reigt);:iihe,CatiKilks had,
little to complatt2 of. If the meatra-Would, as they
stated, have safely combined all the energy of the
Empire, it was desirable ; but why agitate -it when
it. wai.known itcould.never receive_the Royal appro-
bation.

Mr.
,C6RWEN heartily concurred 'in'the motion for
a Resolution, not as an abstra& question, but as 0110
in-yhicll the interests oc the country were materially
. concerned. •
. •
• Nr LTiEl`brE LL thought that.the late' uncalled
for change in the Council of hisMajeSty could not
:fail of.mak:inga. deep impression- on our Allies, and
raistog,the expectation of our enemies, and this at a
peTiock-whep a-firm reliance hadheen entertained' on
the co-op ration of Great. Britain in the common
cause.;, for could any' one assert that the slightest
cOnodenee could exist in the permayence,olthe pre-
sent Administration i/ The right which 'the Crown
possessed of appointing
,Ministers :was undoubted,
but it was .necessary those`Ministertshould possess
the conAdence.both.of the aristocracy and deinocra.;
.cy of the country. The new \Administration seemed
-to emnlate the giants, who, when overthrown and
touched the earth, recovered their strength, fori t Was
mot long since they doubted their power to carry on
the Gwvertunent of the country; and since that time
, their opposition had been repeatedly defeated.
If2J. FULLER contended that this was just a
question-between one set of IWft eisrs and'another.
As: to ,the pledge demanded by his Majesty, it any
Minister had advised the abrogation of the 13ill of
Bights, or the dissolution of Magna Mina, he
-
should like to '.know whether the: King would not.
have been justified in demanding_ from them a-pro-,
wise to refrain, froht such advice in future,, and if ,
their, word was not to be trusted, to demand that
prornise in writing ? forty years ago, such advice as
had bon given to his Majesty .would have been
ithpeachahle:. He remembered the time, not-thirtyyears since, when LOrd North gave up this. point,
and, sent to Ireland 70,000 stand cif alms, which had ,
since. been used in rebellion, against- this Country.— t
Some people said, that the late Ministry had done
great things. He thought thegreat family of which
it was chiefly -Composed, bad been always very, full
of theeries, and no family had been better paid. fOr
their,theories. By the,first.theory we lost America,
by the second, the Lledion A&, a most contemptible
court hadheen.produced, and by the last and most
fatal,.the Slave Trade had-been abolished.' The last
was founded on, the., most foolish policy; it went to,.
lessen the, growth of sugar, aiid also—
The .SPEA.KgIi requested :the HO,n. Gentleman
w6uld adhere to the question, ,
proceeded, but again entering on
the 'inexpediency of the Slave Trade Aboliti6o,, was
acraio called-to order) and: sat down.

• Mr. P IAY ETT, the Attorney-General for
.Ireiancij in a maiden speech, supported the original.
MotiOri..-Alluding to what had fallen from an
.Honoui-able!lfaronet, who. accused, the late _Achill-
' ,nistration of attacking ,the Prerogative ofi he Crown,
and of- endeattniring‘to •shiftilhe odium from. their.
• own shoulders to those-Of the Sovereign, he ex -
pressed' great .anxiety clear -111tnseil from a
charge of Such' 'a --dishonourable' nature. It was
most' distitittly the sentiment cdi his heart that
he believed' his Majesty totally;:incapable of de-
mandint a pledge frOln his Ministers, or of adopt.
ing' ally -56-00 g tneastire, which pledge or wkich
measure he did not sinCerely believe necessary
the4elfare:'of his people,. The persons who had:
tkiidenyoured, he trusted ineffe4luaily,, to r3istj'a•crr.,
throughout Country, that the Church was in.
danger, hathtaken on themselves,•a serious teAPonsi;i;J
hility,•'fortheiHouse,waS.yet to learn •by what Part_
of the ciiiiduo of the late Administration the Pro.,
testant lESfAblishrrient had been etidang-ered;
Tren-
ing oonnexion :of Great Bri:nsitl
and Ir&latidi,was the only security for thewertifre of
the Enipitie,iand• feeling that the security of 'the
Protestalitc'Establishment was the vital 'principle
of, that' connexion, he should.-certainly neyer .1144.
supported-any measure which.. 'appeared in the-
slightest degree to trench upOn that security.
the alarm which hail been raised been well fbuti:ded
he- Would' lia•ve echoed it ; but nothing'. was 'so
dangerous' as unnecessary alarms. He.dtd novbe,:
lieve:that.theiintentions of theGentlenien opposite, in
raisinthis, alarm; were wilrUily-erroneons, but
shewn• • that discretion
they at • least not
which' qualified-them .td•jheolitii,isa ai-d areituotti Covert= A
v,cnclt:.meat:me: As' se, much had ben
of 170, he would call the attention of the House
to that A&, which seemed but" ill tinderstoo(L.:-
It was iiiti-dduced in' leelandj not as purporting jto
apply 'to- IriSh Cat i CS, butAt,de,
.
scriptions-Imd-countries who eXerdiesi ,the- military.
prolessiiiiiiin' Ireland. By the 'A:a of Union, the.
esi'abliShnients toe t'yo Islands: were no longer
separate. The ainly pf Ireland became thetarmy of
Great 3ritatn thd' navy, of Great.- Britain became
the navy of Ireland. -By 'the UniOn Aiis Majesty
could-gi.antanY command' in the artny.short of 'that
of Corninanthx in-Chief,: and any • comnuand in the
navyuto'a Catholic; provided suck command w;:ta
ercised-in Irsland alone. Thus thos6‘,Vho raised:the
alarni,Taised it'against the established -14 w. I•46tt,4ki•-
tisfie&With their. pliicards, &c. an attempt had been
ina:le-by'a.aperson for whom he entertained a 'high
.respeiit, the, Clianceller-of the University of DlAblin
(the"-Duke-of Curnberland), to disturb the peace of
the ThiiVersify Dublin,- by endeavouring to prO
curb a 'Petitibdagainst the Itotilan Catholic
;1-7114dittg the .iirst tolhis effett had not
been siiccessful, 1i second letter: had been' sent; in
:'Whiith it was intimated; that the otily'way to pre-'
serve the lavourof the Royal Duke to Althorn behad
'alluded, was by signing. such a Petition. , He Was
not aware whether =this '!fitter application took `place
after thejiii6i-stire had. been:- AbandBned in • I''arlia7;
.ixuenf-ai,hefore.. If after, it was a political schame.
do suPport:the new Administration if while- they
• Bill was pending, it.was an Unconsthotional and
Warrantable interference.' The present was not 'a
party lifes.tion.,.bilfbue Which involved 'the vital in-
leresta of the Empire. He had been. in the babit-of:
c(inSidering''the Protestant Religion as
in all'its‘ points,--Valuable in a political li,r. acid
-vifluahle as embodying every virtue and enal.iy.--t
lie earnestly called upon, those, Gentlemen
Ilkinght- those virtues and charities subitanti, I).

prove by the* vote of that night, their belief of the
truth of the Potestant Doftrines,
.and their love of
its amiable character. With .regaid to the pledge
wl'li‘h h:id been -deninded' of the late
.`:Str3tion, it. was not only dangerous, constitution
considered, as stibstituting secret whisperers
tor' the known advisers of 'the-Crown, .anci. as
• -
Separating the interests of the Ling from the in-
terests of the People, but it was also dangerous
as. al-lb-ding the state-of Ireland.. If there:_was any
:.thing to which it was, the duty of Government: to
'-apply their daily and nightly attentiOn, it, was the..
state of the Catholics- of Ireland. It was true that'
the Catholics of Ireland
.httl eNperienced great ad..'
vantages during the whole course of the present be-
neficent* reigp, It, might be Said,, that.they ought
to be content ; but he put it to the Members of that
House,, whethcr, rank, wealth, -and honour;_ would
make them -Content, if n they were. precluded
.from
the constitution country ? The, reserva,
tions 'adopted in Ireland had produced, an anxi7.
ous Gentry, ,and a subservient, Priesthood. • If he.
were asked what remedy. he would apply, he might,
perhaps, not be able to ausw,er. But c,‘:,this.he Was
satiSfied that things could not remain as they were
-they must -become either better or. worse. .As
Well might it be expe6ed by shutting. one's .eyes, •
to prrest the fall a body irresistibly. impelled
to the earth by the, laws of gravitation, as to
suppose that by
.an inattention to Ireland, the
evils to which he alluded would of themselves sub-:
side. He spoke. in the presence of personswho were
',well acquainted w}th these fats; , What must be the
,effeCt of the demand made upon the-late Administra-
tion, for a pledge,.on the Catholics of:lreLand ? Had
ever such a: pledge .been before demanded as it••re7
lated to any of the inhabitants of the guipite ?, The
right of the meogst individual to lay a-..Pstition at
the toot of the Throne.. had been long established ;
but here was .a restrion on the claiMs of mil-
; lionsl this w 35 not, merely- a. novelty, it was a. pro-
digy, an alarming appearance in: the Constitution.
Only unbounded power or unerring_ wisdom ought.to
impose" such. a pledge. What must be the feelings of
the Catholics of•lrehn-rd, to he told that the conscience
of the Crown was bermetieally sealed against them ?
If the Catholics could not obtain
_their objea con:- •
stitutionally they would attempt to obtain it un-
constitutionally, He disdained the insinuation of an
Hon. Baronet; that those who,propliecied ill were
desirous that their prediCtions should be verified. He
.Must be_ free from. every suspicion of that nature.—
All that beheld valuable in life wasrin Ireland. He
owed gratitude to the CrOwn foi: the confidence that
had been rePosed in him—he felt. no hostility to ,
the. present Administration ; but he only diScharged
a solemn duty; when he declared, that in. cOntetn7.
plating the state of Ireland, his apprehensions rose to.
a degree: of terror which he was unable to express.—
Many were the incendiaries lure:'..,; about that. Cou-
ntry. Into their hands might the Catholics be flung •
:if• they were debarred acees3 thoahrone.

incetitt pchigves,_
Cineri

The (Linger miEht not. be inwediate,. but it would:
still not: be the iess.ioevitable, and, the,existpnce of
the Prot estaOt EF.tablislanieut itself mighit by seriously
iiivolvd.irtt4Rl. result.

- -
The: 01-J4tSC;ELLOR of 1114 E
(Mr. ic.EvAL) agreed that,nothing was more ab-
hori-6t.tb the freeidorn of delmie, or more inconsistent
with free discussiorrithan that anyeset of:inen should-
impute to-ot.hers..as the motivesof,the opinionsithey "-
offered, the consequences they themselves,oon,
ceived likely. to.rentitt front t hese 0gini0n5.,....-'He im
,puted such motives-to the Hon-.!Gentlernenoppo7
site,and be hoped thoy(Would do similar justice to him :
and his Hon. Friends ; and -if • from: ideas, however
~rnistakvicin theirminds, he ha.i concetved and argued;.,
that great mischiefs might. follo.w from the tnea4ll.:,.
'they had intrOdueed and: abandoned, they-. would
,not. charge hipwith raisio.g Axryk.tkat the Church
;qO-in,ttatiger4 ,inerely with a•vit-iwSto pr.orpote party_
ohjs.tas. -He hatllitratily.,stated“the.groodson.Which
he. concoived .the.ineasure introduced by ,the
' Lord opposite waszN Of a tendenvy-d4wvou,s. to, thcz
church .E,:tabtkhoent., inelts4l-ct-twa .to, be
considered not.orrly,r.s._ a: -sihglogmcgiure it was.;
brought ita,as , meaw-tre,inieqe4l,o,-0061:iate. th. 4
Cat hoties,, but t
effect that.objeCt übles it..6101.1c1-,..htfollowed by
other measureq of a larger eY.tent, belie:- the.
expressions • he had used ,on
the sentitnents be that
that measure: .should
' claims would not ,:stop the qamissioti of.
' Irish. Catholic Bishops, into the Ho'Ati-P. Lords
lionourablei'a Yearned (3,l4ilqnap
_who
just,sat downrlonfirrned him in ; for tie
stated, that it was not in human nati.kre;that the-Ctt-
tholies.shottld testsatistied as they werei.or that they
Sit wild; be.con tented.Av.ith out opeuing:to hern ottOr
titicl disfintStions front which,tbey :1/4Y.vr1,1 no exclaed,'
It 113 d eel) sul)l4A.eiLtlat:wlitathe elMive tra,nehise
was. Iran ted, amoinpanied, Nvcirh othr coocemions
to the thighe,r:ranks,- ftirtheriag4lan,cl
pletely stopped, et .the Cat holics,were not.content,
and why ? Because, from the repeatedeonct:ssionsth it
bad been teiader to them,. it. wasnoit consistent ,wit 4
human nature that they should, hesatistied r..-ith less
than the Protvstlnts enjoyed. the ground of
this insatiability; and this .encourogenWnt. gi.vqp to
tfbw deinands by coltinuel cuttcasion, he opp6sed
the Motion :for the
,Thtroduaion of the Bill ; and
those whO were -now in otti,,Ce with hit'n V. in-
the Faille principles litid the saute Es):however, was not the time .to go Inuell at
leng-th...into the Catholic question.; for he agreed that
,the points on which : the merits. of the questi9n im-
mediately before. the House rested were very. distiLld
.froni thatlnestion. HO‘v the. Hon. Gentlemen op.
positc reconciled to theinselvos their abandonment of
.the sill, and their sense of its indispensahienecessity,
:as he-had. not the. beoetit of heating theiex-planatipn
they hadgiven, he should not take. much pains; to in-
' quire. The Honourable and Leatned , Gentleman,
opposite, liis.Learned Friend, if he, would allow him
to call him so, had..not only made an appeal to the
real friends of the Church,: and the real friends. of
Religion, which implied. a ,contradistipdion of the
pretended -friends of both, but bad also. told the
House it •WA uticotist tut '-onA to.eudevour to pro-
cure Addressea to .Parliamit on censures .pending
in Parliament:

t'i,LTSKE77: hoped the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemau cNc ei thiiirr„for in!etruringr, hirnijust
set him- right. iie,)lad si)(;kett.of iigterferePce
i,ro..:ure, but of -the 'Un-:-

due.. Use of the Sovereign's name to procure Ad=
dresF,es to himself.
Mr. PERCEVAL said, it was not necessary td,
apologize to him for such an interruption as the Hon
and Learned Gentleman had given, He Was much
better pleased to be set right in the beginning than ,
to be suffere4 to go on in error. But his Hon..and
Learned Friend was still guilty of a- mistake with
reseed to the principle.' was the use of a name
•.I,l"..that House never soiused there-before,- that Was- •
irt reality unconstitutional and dangerousiberand any
nrecedent ever liefore established, 'and' not any ar-
gument or indecetnetif held forth by any person td-.
offer an Address of . any deseriptiod fa. g:V blare4y';
He would fOrbear to touch upon many topics inv.;
levant to, the imm.,,diate subjea of the debate,,and-.
among them. the merits of the .late2Administra-;
tion. He bad already employed himself fot. the
greater part of two Sessions in doing.justife. to tlio4
merits; and it was hardiy to bp stipp.4seAr that he
could now comprehend them 211 inthe reinainder Of
one short night,. In confining himself to the imme;•
diate question before. the HoUse,'he could not how-
ever exclude_ the ,consideratinn of the eircntostances'
So materially connPaed with it. It was'idle to
bate the 'Resnlution propped from. the ;:s an
abstrad
:proposition ; it must, of necessity', be consi-
dered with' refe'rence `to the tiros upon ti h Cl 4 it
was 'acknowledged to be fbunded; and' the. House
should be caution's of being led,'
,by joining- in that
abstratc,t Resolution, into an implication of fads
of which there was no proof. Fir's't, the' adop,
tion of the proposed Resolution Would imply; that
the dismissal' of` the late Ministers Was an aa vhicft
.the House loOked,upon as highly. censurable. -Far,
coupling the conSideration of the Resolution with the
explanation made tty the Noble- Lord, out of which
the Motion'gre,v,. it wouid be implied, ti:at a• pledge
-Of a censurable nature had been, requir,d ;and that, '
On the refusal to accede to that pledge, a Leusurable
4istniss:;ll followed ;,,end further, that those-who weis
ow in office, had expressly, or by ion, given
that pleke.• .•4e was-giaci .11. t had rightly- concei-vel
the Objects of the Honourable Gentleman. Its
-
wished the Motion had distinly-staited that objea,
rather than attempted; 'by any means of general inn-
guage,-to draw the 11()use into an 'itsserit
to' what it would eXpressiy never give its -sanetion.—
The House was called upon- to consider the 'que,stiifni
stripped-of its cireuinstances, and then it
pected that a censure sheull file passed upon: tho
mere ft-aid:et:LA& 'Of -the King in distnissing tha
.late ,Ministers. But the circumstances .of the °C3SL't
iminediately alluded tO were to be considered ; and
if the SO::ereign ',was, to be called to 'the' Bar' of the
HOUse,_not less justiee should be'khewit thaa'
to ati.y private individual. He'fert the'diffiCuity he
was nnder with respeat to the torus of the lionse
but upon a question relating, to the disnii of
Stets, _and a•qnestion Upon which theSe Ministers
j usiqcrat t heraselves against their Sovereign, Much-la-
titude was to he allowed toohose who appeared
,on,'
the Opposqe side. waS certainly true, that for Par-
liamentary purposps.it Was. Supposed that -the
did nothing Without 'advieet'but the fat*. yvas,.intnis.
case, as he believed and-had reason to know, the
_King had-acted witihourani-advice Whatsoever,- he:
meant sof-lir as regarded the pledge required of tire
late. Ministers ; for as to their dismissal, he did not
mean to say-that there bad not been. advice.--
'saying that -:so much been done
advice, lie-did not however mean to repudiate Ircra
hiri self, or froni 111(;,,e conae'aed with. inin, vie re.;
the demand of the pledge,l, .1-le..was -
ready to defend the wisdom of requiring such a•
jut if the tP6t,-,viai to be argued with-all its
legal c,ohsequenceS, he thought it still • right, arat
shoUld' tie known to Parliament, and to the coun-
try, that there; was no secret adviserhatsoevar,
nor,'aox adviser connec-ted with the proceedings
that: ,had :taken place in this respe6, the dis-
missal of the • late • Ministers. But when the
ctis-
•inissal of the Mini tors was, resolved upon, it .beca.te
necessary to. recur ,lu.others to carryon the.business
‘..whicll,4ag beetytleler,initied upon; and in his ciOlioaH •
,
those referredtv were net at liberty to give a, :rierusit,
:Which would„w,t a.top to the public business, even,
thcsy,hoWd ‘iisayipyoye of the principles which.:
'lf.Alt6 the elnoge; bat ttiepresenclqinisteris,certainlyr
d id, not disapprilve of tile prsceechngsthat had led to-
the applieation from their Sovereigntothem. rieelon-
Iceived it would_be coo,vc.-..nie,nt itt• the discussion tea
erns pier the niesure,,wilich Len ad be the-Occasionof
tpq dismissaqh Ogee stages : First, when the applies
c4tron
'art
hs iSrloi•ntlileittyh.'ast cionns. c,4nLt:
• bring it ;, \\•Len it, hid been locought
12,t4 1\1&?at•; Lad ny)dc:rstpqd.apd
,spn4lonc d it ; and,. •
thirdly when it:
.was, tt,e
stiiree,s attending,that;proceeding., As to the first,
w4s' could. have un4r-
stetod the orisinal.into,tionody as meant to extend
rile pknvisious. of the 1,41- th,,gt of t7l?
sto (4rea(Bri,-
tan.] t by
raleans of cl;tuses.,in.t he Mutiny,. The I
frrtdi;Rate.ll to his niajosty, turning .en the,arroma- •
lies of the law, in, Ireland and Great 4ritain,, and oat
the obligation of the plg4ge given in Ireland in ms
extension .of the law, ofihatTettntry to.this, and th
the.bse of the words .o.f the Irish Ad in the disl2,..tch„
that is, toountalicommissions,ancl.all thearguments
offvni to gatn his Majesty's consent, tended to shear •
that nothing- more vas meant at that time titan foci
tendahat Act:to this'cquilyp 7hiswas,reuslered Stilt
'more clear. and unquestiOnable,,by the:change,whici;s,
was trodnced ;in to the,expressions when ii.began-
be to,
in the. contemplation of the late Ministers to grant
more than was granted, by the Irish :Ft'.4. then the
for Mer expression of commissions was omitted, for,*
did not apply to. the Staff, and thewords " warrants-
and. appointments" were introduced into the Bill. It
was besides to be. considered, that, it_.was not tilt
.•
after much reasoning that his IVlanstyhad been in- •
duced to withdraw his 4is§oitfroru the original pro-
position; and that his Majesty had then declare. 4
that nothing should, ever, induce him to go one step,
further. His Majesty; at ,the. same. tune, exp•esseti
.a hope that his forbearance in this instance, would
save him from being presied 'further upon .
jeCt . upon which his mind was unalterably mac*
up against all further ccncession. It was not
his '',lajesty, alone that understood the original
-intention in the limited. sense of extending the
Irish Act to this Country,: the .person who was
eruplbyed Ireland (Mr. Elliot) to. communicate
-with,the Catholics, did. not feel himself authorised to
give any larger understanding till he..liad referred to
his princip:l3 for explanatiOas ; aed the.N. cble Lord i
empluyedlo communicate with his Majesty