The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-30 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 30, it,36

longer rely upon it That appeared to hint to be a sufficient
kor, not including. Mr, Daniel in the arrangement
which was to be made. His wish was, to appoint perions who
were able to undertake practieally tclUties of a 'Justice
of the Peace.; be therefore did net think it advisable to
put ipto,tbe pArtlthilarly when he had a choice of
,twenty-foqr, a gentleman who, perhaps, in the course of
three or four years, would be quite unable to perform the ma-
gisterial duties of so important a district.—( Hear.) Such were
his reasons for the course he had taken with respect to the
places to which the Right Hon. Baronet had alluded. It
was a source of great satisfaction to him, that there were
qnly tight towns that were made the subjedt of complaint;
the number of Magistrates appointed; acctirdiilg tO the ac-
count presented to Parliaffient, behi not lets than 428 ;
and there having bben atipointed since, as many as 200 or
250 morn. AO Would not pretend to say that there had
Adt been any persons omitted who ought to have been
placed in the commission, or that there might not have
been some individuals appointed who had not the discretion,
judgment, and character which entitled them to such a posi-
tion ; but he could say, he did believe that, on the whole, this
list of, perhaps, 600 and more magistrates was a list of re-
spectable and intelligent men. It was certainly a list of which
the majority entertained liberal politics, but he believed them
to be individuals who would not allow their politics to prevent
them from doing their duty as justices.—( Hear, hear.) He
would not say a word in disparagement of the Magistrates of
counties, or of the manner in which the Lords Lieutenant of
counties had exercised their discretion. He entertained a high
opinion of the county Magistrates, and thought that the dis-
cretionary power was not altogether ill placed in the Lords
Lieutenant ; but he would again say he did believe that the
Magistrates of the towns would be found as intelligent and as
able, well and honestly to administer justice as the county Ma-
gistrates were known to be.—( Cheers.) And he was far from
thinking that any thing which the Right Hon. Baronet had
stated in the course of his speech had shown that there had
existed on the part of the advisers of the Crown the least dis-
position to sacrifice the ends of justice for the sake of the views
of party.—( Great cheering.)
Sir R. VYVVAN said that the Noble Lord the Secretary
of State for the Home Department had risen for the purpose
of replying to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth. How had the. Noble Lord replied
to the allegations and the arguments of his Right Honourable
Friend ?—(Great cheering.) Many points had been alluded
to by the Right Hon. Baronet to which the Noble Lord had,
it seemed, felt it unnecessary even to advert.—(Loud cheer-
ing.) He bad not touched upon the case of Leicester.—
( Lord Jnhn Russell—Yes, I did.) The Noble Lord had just
mentioned it, and passed it over with the most becoming deli-
cacy.—(Cheers.) What was the explanation of the Noble
Lord with respect to Bristol ?—( Great cheering.) The case
of Bristol was the strongest that had been alluded to that
evening; and he felt assured that neither the House nor the
country would feel satisfied with the explanation which the
Noble Lord had given.—( Cheers.) He was sure that the
Noble Lord had stated nothing to satisfy them why a Gentle-
man of the greatest respectability should be set aside in order
to make way for some person of opposite political opinions.
—( Cheering.) He had hoped that when the Noble Lord
had stated that he had made that sweeping recommendation
to the Crown, with respect to the appointment of Magis-
trates, that the Noble Lord would have been able to show that
in this respect, at least, he and his colleagues had lain aside
that spirit of party, which—most unhappily for the country
—had too long prevailed in that House.—(Great and
continued cheering from the Opposition side of the House.)
When the Noble Lord rose to defend his conduct, he ex-
pected that he would have taken larger and more extensive
grounds, and that he would not have shrunk for a defence Into
the circumstance, that in one place or another some Conser-
vatives had been appointed. He had listened with attention
to the speech of the Noble Lord, and he did not appear to
him to have answered the allegations, in any respect, which
had been made against the conduct pursued by the Home-
Office in the appointment of magistrates.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Lord stated that, in regulating the number :of magi-
strates, they had been influenced by a consideration of the ex-
tent of the population of the place where the magistrates were
to exercise their functions. Now, how had the Government
followed out this principle which they declared they had been
guided by ?—( Hear, hear.) In Bath they had appointed six-
teen magistrates to a population of fifty thousand. In Bristol
twenty-four was the number named byjthe Town Council, and
eighteen was the number appointed by the Government to a
population of a hundred and four thousand persons.—( Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Baronet is mistaken as to
Bath, as I think that the number of magistrates appointed to
Bath was twelve.

(Cheers.) He confessed himself disappcinted in the Noble
Lord's defence of the appointments which lie had made.„-,
(Hear.) :When it went forth to the country it was not likely
to raiiejlio,Miniityra„of,the Crown in public estimation, or
add td thB bf the Sol'rereian.,—, (janua cheers.)
Mr. ]#ERNAL aid not exf&t frthii len'ittetQ.Aq planner
which the discussion had opened to find it lat.t.ri o tiNe
tone which the Hon. Member for Bristol had adopted-2
( Hear, hear.) If that Hon. Member entertained the opinion
which he had expressed with regard to the Noble Lord, it
was his distinct duty to come forth and impeach him.—
( Cheers.) When a man of integrity and ability, such as the
Hon. Baronet; mid representing a population of upwards of
4ueli at. He, attributed, Oorttipt tnotivo td a
Minister he was bound In liiiribuf and in dtity td follovt tip
the cbarge.—( Loud cheers.) He (Mr. IJernal) withe'd they
had not been drawn away from the subject by this disdlisSidn,
for he could not call it debate. As regarded Rochester his
Noble Friend should be thoroughly acquitted, for if any
blame lay with respect to the appointments there it rested
upon him (Mr. Bernal) ; and yet the utmost that he did was
to attend a deputation which waited upon Government to re-
commend certain persons as qualified for the magistracy. The
circumstances of the town warranted this application. The
parties in the Corporation were equally balanced, and the con-
sequence was they could not agree in their recommendations.
Even to this day they had not agreed as to the election of a
mayor or aldermen. The Noble Lord had done nothing with
regard to those appointments of which he need be ashamed ;
and if he (Mr. Bernal) were to-morrow placed in the same
position he should act the same part.—( Ministerial cheers.)
Mr. G 0 ULB URN always maintained that the maintenance
of particular political opinions should not exclude any person
from holding the commission of the peace; and he only now de-
sired that a difference of opinion from what predominated in the
Government should not be deemed an insuperable bar to the
magisterial office.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the
Opposition, loudly echoes' by Mr. O'Connell.) The Go•
vernment which consulted party politics in those appoint-
ments certainly did not do their duty. His Hon. Friend
who had last ,addressed the House said that representatives
had a right to recommend to those appointments. • No doubt
the recommendations made by his Hon. Friend were honestly
and conscientiously made; but, however strong his (Mr.
Goulburn's) impression of the fairness of his Hon. Friend's
motives might be, those who were not so well acquainted with
him, and who knew the political opinions which he entertained,
might be apt to look upon his recommendation with suspicion.
This must be particularly the case as regarded Rochester, .
where opinions were so equally balanced.—( Cheers.) He did
not object to his Hon. Friend's interference, but he did object
to the acquiescence of Ministers, who, on so delicate a point,
should have resorted to sources of information more free from

the suspicion which must be attached to such a recommenda-
tion by all who had not the pleasure of knowing his Hon.
Friend as well as he.—( Cheers.) He would conclude by stating
it as his opinion that the explanation of the Noble Lord was
by no means satisfactory.
Lord J. RUSSELL explained. With respect to the ob-
servations of the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Vyvyan) he (Lord J.
Russell) expected to hear some motive urged for the accusa-
tion brought against him as a Minister of the Crown. I can-
not (continued the Noble 'Lord) pretend to find fault with the
expressions used by the Hon. Baronet. They are perfectly
justifiable as used against a Minister of the. Crown ; but if I
am to understand them as so used, I certainly shall impute it
as a fault to the Hon. Baronet, and shall look upon his attack
as a calumnious one, if he do not, without loss of time, after
having accused me of corrupt practices, bring this question
to an early decision.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) lam ready to meet the charge—(Loud cheering)
—and if it be not thus brought, I feel compelled to say that
a charge of corruption against me is false and unfounded.—
( Protracted cheering.)
Sir R. VYVYAN—I certainly do accuse as corrupt the
Minister of the Crown whose conduct has been more or less
calculated, in appointments to the magistracy, to advance the
interests of his own party, rather than to advance the ends of
justice.—(Cheers from both sides, and laughter from the Mi-
nisterial benches.) With respect to the words which I before
used, I have only to say, that I meant them to apply in the
full sense in which they were originally spoken.
Mr. P. THOMSON was ready to admit the charge against
the Noble Lord, if it only meant that in the appointments
which the Noble Lord had recommended, he had studied the
advancement of the great and important measures which, in
truth and in justice, those on that side of the House thought it
right to advocate. But if, on the other hand, as the words of
the Hon. Baronet seemed to imply, it was imputed to the
Noble Lord, to him (Mr. P. Thomson), and to others con-
nected with the Government, that in the appointment of ma-
gistrates they had been influenced by corrupt motives, the
Hon. Baronet was bound either to declare that he had used
the expressions in a moment of excitement, or else to follow
out the charge by laying upon the table some motion founded
upon it. As an honest Member of the House, that was the
bounden duty of the Hon. Baronet.—( Ministerial cheers.)
Only one of two ways were open to him. Unless he adopted
one or the other way, very little care or attention would be
paid to any charges made in future by the Hon. Baronet.—
(Ministerial cheers.)
The SPEAKER—The matter cannot rest without a clear
understanding. As it appears to me it is this. I certainly
heard the word corruption used by the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Bristol, and I was then about to interfere ; but
the language in which the phrase was followed up seemed to me
to render interference unnecessary.,—( Hear, hear.) Still,
however, a distinct charge has been made, which cannot be ex-
plained away by any generalities.—( Cheers frorn the Minis-
terial benches.) The charge was, that the Noble Lord, in his
Ministerial capacity, had used the power vested in him thus for
corrupt purposes as regarded appointments connected with the
due administration of justice.—(Ministerial cheers.) [The
cheers from the Ministerial benches,, together with the ac-
customed obstruction of the canopy, rendered it very diffi-
cult to hear with distinctness the opinion delivered by the
Speaker.]
Mr. HUiVIE felt that the charge made by the Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Bristol, was a very extraordinary one. In lis
opinion the Noble Lord had been only too attentive to his op-
ponents in the appointments which he had made. The Noble
Lord had acted with the utmost impartiality in accepting the
amendment from the other House, which vested the nomination
of those recommended by the town council in the Crown, for
he accepted it without knowing what would be the issue of the
municipal elections. What, was this, then, the first time they
had heard of party feeling in that House? After the observa-
tions made by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Bristol, he
was bound to institute an inquiry immediately before the
House.—( Hear.) Let the charge be brought forward. (An
impeachment.) An impeachment if they pleased—so much
the better. Let them have an impeachment—it would be a
novel thing—
Mr. GO ULB URN—Oh, but you forget the expense.
Mr. HUME—Never mind the expense. I will undertake
to get all the expense subscribed for.—( A laugh.) Oh, don't
let Hon. Members opposite imagine thnt though inclined to
deprecate needless expense, expense would ever prevent him
from supporting every measure which he believed to be bene-
ficial, and this would be a beneficial step.—(" Hear," from the
Opposition.) Yes, it would be a benefit, for it would be a
practical illustration of the doctrine of Ministerial responsibi-
lity to the people, and he should be delighted to see the first
impeachment brought by the Tories, if only for the sake of
seeing it crushed, and witnessing it recoil upon themselves.—
( Cheers.) He trusted also that the Hon. Baronet, to prove
his impartiality, would at the same time move for a list of the
county magistrates, their political opinions, and the motives
which influenced their appointment, and if the Hon. Baronet
took half as much pains to inquire into this subject as he had
done to inquire into the political opinions of the municipal
magistrates, he was sure the country would be a gainer by the
inquiry.
Sir R. PEEL again explained that it was at the wish of
tha Noble Lord opposite that this motion had been brought
forward out of its turn, and that he had expressly asked, be-
fore he made it, if any Hon. Gentleman bad any objection to
his so doing.—(l-lear.)
Mr. G 0 ULB URN, in answer to an observation which had
been made, begged to explain that when lie was Secretary for
Ireland the Lord Chancellor was the person responsible for
magisterial appointments, except those under the Police Acts ;
and that with regard to the former he had invariably, though
repeatedly applied to, refused to interfere in any way whatever.
Mr. RIC El ARDS said the Hon. Baronet had preferred—
he spoke advisedly—a well-founded charge. What was the
argument used in favour of Municipal Reorm but this : that
the whole course of justice had been perverted, that the Cor-
porations were corrupt, and their influence used for party pur-
poses? But how had the Noble Lord acted in order to pre-
serve the administration of justice from the interference of po-
litical and party feeling ? The Noble Lord admitted that he
had consulted gentlemen who were of the same political party
with himself, and consequently must have been actuated in
the choice of magistrates for these boroughs by.party feeling,
and these appointments were to a certain extent made for party
purposes. In this sense he understood the charge of the Hon.
Baronet of party corruption, and in this sense he repeated
that charge, not only against the Noble Lord but against the
whole party opposite. ( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
He was glad to hear those cheers. He presumed he had
said nothing that did not please them, and he did not think
the worse of himself for it. He said he charged the whole
party opposite with corruption. He did more, he charged
them with conspiracy—(" Oh, oh, oh," from the Ministerial
benches)—he charged them with a settled design to subvert the
institutions of the country, and to change them from monar-
chial to republican. (" Oh," and " Hear, hear.") This
seemed to be one of the objects of the Reform Bill, and that
it was pne of the objects also of the Irish Reform Bill no
one who had heard the debate of last night could for a mo-
ment doubt. That Bill would make fifty or sixty little re-
publics in Ireland. ( Question.) The Hon. Gentleman was
proceeding to make some observations on the debate of the
preceding night, when
Mr. E WART rose to order, and said the. House was re-
sponsible to the public for the employment of their time,
and this was a mere waste of it.

Sir R. VYVYAN—The difference was not essential, for
if the principle of regulating the number of magistrates by
the extent of population were to be admitted, surely if they
gave twelve magistrates to a population of fifty thousand they
ought at least to have allowed twenty-four magistrates to a
population of a hundred and four thousand.—(Loud cheer-
ing.) Independent of population, there were many other
circumstances that entitled the city of Bristol to greater
consideration. It had much more business than Bath—it
was a great commercial town, and was besides a seaport, and
a place of considerable importance.—(Hear, hear.) The
conduct of the Noble Lord with respect to Bristol and
the absence of any satisfactory explanations made it in-
cumbent on him, as the representative of Bristol, to rise in
his place, and protest against the conduct that had been pur-
sued in the case of Bristol.--(Cheers.) He felt it necessary
to allude to what had taken place in the case of Mr. Alderman
Daniel. He had hoped that the Noble Lord would have been
able to give some satisfactory, or something approaching to a
satisfactory, explanation on this point. The Noble Lord had
stated that he objected to Alderman Daniel not on account of
politics, but because he was too old to discharge the functions
of a magistrate in so extensive a place as Bristol. Now, what
were the facts? Mr. Alderman Daniel had been chosen by
the Corporation to be mayor of Bristol ; that appointment
was received with general satisfaction ; and had not been car-
ried into effect merely because he himself had declared his own
resolution to retire.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
Now, to be chosen as mayor over a population of 104,000 per-
sons was no proof of the unfitness of a gentleman to discharge
magisterial functions. Mr. Alderman Daniel had been called
the father of the corporate body in Bristol, and he could only
look upon the refusal of the Noble Lord to confirm his ap-
pointment as an evidence of the resolution of the Noble Lord
to mark him out as one of those who were to be visited with
the vengeance of the Government for having always consis-
tently pursued a certain line of political conduct.—( Cheers.)
The Noble Lord could not deny that he was in communication
with individuals connected with Bristol. The Noble Lord
could not deny that he had communicated with the officers of a
Liberal Association in Bristol.—( Cheers.) He had given them
no reason why be had selected twelve persons of Liberal poli-
tics and rejected six persons of Tory politics. He had
objected to the appointment of Alderman Daniel in Bristol
on the ground of his being too old, but whilst he made this
objection to a gentleman in Bristol on the score of age he
had appointed an individual in Norwich who was 83 years of
age.—( Loud and continued cheering.) When Alderman
Daniel's appointment was refused, Mr. Frith was elected
without any opposition : such was the feeling produced in
Bristol by the refusal to appoint Mr. Daniel ; and Mr. Frith,
owing to this, was unanimously elected. He was well aware
that to the present Government, and to the Government of
1832, the magistrates of Bristol were obnoxious, and that that
feeling still operated. In 1832, the year after the riots, the
Government prosecuted the magistrates of Bristol, and a spe-
cial verdict was returned to the charges made against the
mayor.__( Hear, hear.) In 1834 when Lord Melbourne re-
ceived a deputation (in Derby he observed it was) who went
to offer him an address of condolence upon his loss of office,
that Noble Lord took the occasion to explain the measures of
Reform that were contemplated by his Government, and
amongst other propositions he mentioned the reform of Mu-
nicipal Corporations, which he stated he feared was rendered
necessary by the conduct of the Bristol magistrates.—( Re-
-iterated cheering from the Opposition.) This was the lan-
guage which the Noble Viscount had thought fit to use to-
wards those individuals after they had been acquitted by a jury
of their countrymen.—(Loud cheers.) As a Representative
of Bristol, he felt it incumbent on him to rise and protest
against the course which the Noble Lord had pursued towards
the Corporation of that city. The Hon. Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to allude to the opinions expressed in the Report of
the Commissioners respecting the Magistracy appointed un-
der the former Corporate system. Vs hen he had heard that
the Noble Lord hesitated about the appointment of those
named in the list, he was certain that the Noble Lord in any
decision he might make would subject himself to some sacrifice
of his partialities, and instead of those three objected to by the
Common Council have appointeckhree of the six whom he
rejected, and thus have made something like a compromise ;
but instead of that he appointed the three persons objected to,
and rejected the six to whom no objection whatever had been
made.—( Loud cheering.) He himself would have brought
the case before the House of Commons before, but that he
anticipated that events would occur which, by a chain of cir-
cumstantial evidence, would convict the Noble Lord of having
been actuated by corrupt motives.—( Loud cheers.) He did
not shrink from the assertion, that any Minister of the Crown
who advised appointments to be made by the Crown with
any view to the advancement of party objects was open to the
charge of corrupt motives.—( Hear, hear.) He did think that
circumstances would yet prove that the Noble Lord had
stronger reasons for the course he had pursued than those he
had stated to the House. The circumstances proved that the
course adopted by the Noble Lord showed that the
exercise of the power vested in the Crown had not been pro-
ductive of the intended effect. So far was lie ( Sir R. Vyvyan)
from wishing to vest additional power in the Crown, that he,
the other day, on the motion of the Noble Lord the Member
for South Lancashire, purposely abstained from voting, be-
cause he was in principle opposed to take away power from
the people to vest it in the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) He had,
in the present instance, a proof of the correctness of the
principle upon which he acted, and of the propriety of not
trusting any Administration with too much power. Bristol
was a case in point. Here the people were just, and the
Crown was unjust. Of course, in using the word, he spoke
of his Majesty's responsible Ministers; who had, in this in-
stance, acted in the spirit of partisanship. The Noble Lord
had said that he did not derive the information upon which the
magistrates of Bristol had been appointed through any parti-
cular channel. The appointments themselves were likely to
tell through what channel the information was derived; but
as the Noble Lord had said it was not got through any par-
ticular channel, he ( Sir R. Vyvyan) was bound to believe
him.—( Hear, hear.) But, certainly, if the information was
not received from a particular party the appointments were
very remarkable. He would ask the Noble Lord to state the
names of those who had objected to the persons recommended
by the town council of Bristol,—('t No, no," from the Minis-
terial benches.) If secret objections from Bristol were listened
to against the recommendation of the council, was it not fair
to demand a full opportunity of ascertaining their validity ?

Mr. RICHARDS admired extremely the economic feeling
of the Hon. Member for Liverpool in relation to the time of
the public. He (Mr. Richards) had scarcely spoken this
session, whilst no member consumed more of the time of
the House, and to very little purpose, than the Hon. Mem-
ber for Liverpool, who hail spoken ad nauseam ( Hear,
hear,)----and perhaps in a way not strictly consistent with
the rules which the Noble Lord had himself laid down.—
( Hear. )
Dr. LUSHINGTON had listened very attentively to the
debate, and also to the diverting speech of the Hon. Member
for Knaresborough, and he quite agreed in his concluding
statement, that he did not, when he rose, intend to speak to
the question. He congratulated the Hon. Member upon his
rigid adherence to his resolution. He coincided with the
Speaker in the view which he had taken of the Hon. Baronet's
speech. Ho did not understand the Hon. Baronet to impute