The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-02 00:00:00

should have a benefice, and every benefice a resident clergy-
man, the present revenues of the Church of Leland would he
insufficient for the due maintenance of the establishment.) He
could not conceive how the Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) and
the , Hon. Member for St. Alben's could reconcile the state-
ments they had respectively made as to the amount of the sur-
plus. The Hon. Member had on a former occasion stated it
at one million, but the Noble Lord now estimated it at
00,000/. only. He appealed to the Noble Lord opposite, as
one who regarded the Established Church, who was anxious to
legislate fairly and honestly on the subject, to give up the
pursuit of a phantom that hail no existence Unreality, and to
meet in an amicable spirit those on that side of the House
who wished to settle the whole question, a question which had
for so long a time agitated and distracted Ireland, and with-
out the settlement of which that country never could be ex-
pected to enjoy either peace or rest.—( A cheer from an Hon.
Member on the Ministerial side of the House.) He under-
stood that cheer, and was aware that no settlement of the
question would be satisfactory to the Hon. Member from
whom it proceeded, unless it went to the total destruction of
the Established Church in Ireland.—(Cries of " No, no,"
from the Ministerial benches, succeeded by cheers from the
Opposition benches.)
Mr. E. L. BUL WE R was the party who had cheered ;
and Ile wished to know if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
alluded to him ?—( Cries of " Order I")
Dr. LE FRO Y considered that he was quite in order. An
Hon. Member had cheered, and he had put his interpretation
on that cheer. He might have been mistaken. and was open
to conviction ; but still he had clear right to make the obser-
vation which the cheer had elicited from him.—( hear, hear.)
Should a surplus arise hereafter, nothing could prevent their
bringing, in a Bill for the appropriation of that surplus ; but,
as none now existed, would it not be better to leave the mat-
ter to futurity, and content themselves now with disposing of
the subjects before them for consideration, namely, the set-
tlement of the tithe question and that relating to Church pro-
perty ?—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. BUXTON, when he saw the Noble Lord (Lord
Stanley) opposite rise, hoped he was coming forward as a
peace-maker ; but he was grievously disappointed, although
the Noble Lord told them that the difference between those
on his side of the House and those on that was very slight
—that it proceeded from feelings of false pride and shame ;
but he at the same--time said that nine out of ten of those who
supported the Bill of the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ire-
laecl were the enemies of the Established Church. If that
were the case, the difference could not be so slight as the
Noble Lord would have them suppose ; but whether he
(Mr. Buxton) were to be, numbered as one of the unwise
and indiscreet friends of the Church, or of its malignant and
destructive enemies, all he could say was, that the, Bill of
the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland should have
whatever support he could give it. —( Hear, hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord opposite had thought fit to indulge in strong in-
vectives—to give himself full license of speech—and, there-
fore, he (Mr. F. Buxton) conceived it only right to advert
from such gross—he must designate it—caricature to the pro-
visions of the Bill, in order to ascertain whether the Noble
Lord was justified or not in the course which he had taken.
Now, it was asserted by those who objected to it that it was
not calculated to promote the Protestant religion ; but what
was the first feature which it displayed ? Why, the settlement
of the long and bitterly litigated question of tithes on a satis-
factory basis, by relieving the impoverished peasant from the
payment, and making the tithes a charge on the first estate of
inheritance in the land.—( Hear, hear.) This did not look
like a design to destroy the Church and spoliate its property.
The second feature of the measure was equally satisfactory to
him, because it went to effect a just proportion between the
duties to be performed and the revenue to be received. Well,
what was the third feature which this measure presented ?
Why, that the remuneration of the Clergy should be confined
within certain given limits. This was also a highly impor-
tant arrangement, and one that should be adopted in Eng-
land as well as in Ireland, in order to prevent that of which
the Noble Lord complained—the excesses of a luxurious
surplus and sordid property.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Now,
was it likely that if his Majesty's Ministers were wicked
enough to meditate the overthrow of the Church they would
begin with enacting three capital provisions of this sort, every
one of which, so far from injuring the Church, were calcu-
lated only to confirm and substantiate it ?—( Hear, hear.) Ile
next came to the subject of education, and he must complain
that this part of the question had not been fairly dealt with by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had last addressed the
House. By this Bill not a shilling was to be alienated from
the Church Establishment until every parish in Ireland had its
pastor and its place of worship.
Lord STANLEY—Hots does that appear?
Mr. F. BUXTON—The principle which he bad stated
was apparent in the Ist clause, the preamble, and the lilst
clause: The object of the measure was to apply the property
of the Church more in accordance with the design with which
that property had been originally given; and such a course
would, in his judgment, conduce to the advantage rather than
to the detriment of the Protestant religion.—( Hear.) It had
been made a charge against the Roman Catholics that they
withheld the Scriptures from the people. That he, for one,
considered as the great bane of the Roman Catholic religion, as
he thought the Bible should be read by every one, whether
Catholic or Protestant; but what was the system of education
which this Bill was meant to promote? Not, certainly, that
the whole of the Bible should be read in the schools, but
that portions of it should be read. This, though nfii all lee
could desire, was still an advantage gained, and he &Add not
help wishing that not only Roman Catholics but. Protestants
would dismiss from their minds the presumptuous notion that
they could devise any thing better for the instruction of man-
kind than the Scriptures.—( Cheers.) Knowledge never
could be the foe of true religion --a religion based, as the
Protestant religion was, upon the Bible. The Protestant re-
ligion, then, had nothing whatever to fear except from that
dull, stupid ignorance which knowledge alone could get rid
of. He had hitherto argued the question on principles that
were as applicable to the Church of England as to that of
Ireland, but he could not help regretting that the Noble Lord
(Lord Stanley) opposite, who had displayed such eloquence
and knowledge of the subject, had altogether forgotten to
notice the real condition of Ireland, where there were one
million of Protestants, and six millions of Roman Catholics.
That disparity, in fact, formed the main feature of the case,
because the peculiarity which it exhibited was that the estab-
lished religion went by the broad name of the national
Church, while, in point of fact, the nation, he might almost
say, were opposed to it, and considered the faith which it
professed to be heretical.—(" Hear," from Mr: O'Connell
and other Members on the Ministerial benches.) He 'must
say, however, that the terms proposed by the Govern-
ment measure were as favourable as they ought to ex-
pect. No benefice was to be suppressed, and no spiritual in-
struction was to be wanting. The four principal provisions of
the Bill went to give strength and stability to the Church ;
and more than this ought not to be required. Many 0]
the evils of Ireland had arisen from what was called in
that country Protestant ascendancy ; but what was it that
made a man a pod Protestant except his belonging to a
political confederacy, plunging into dissipation and excess,
and drinking, on his bended knees, " The pious and im-
mortal memory?" He had seen all this while he lived in
Ireland, and he has present in Carlow when a Protestant
procession paraded about, playing a tune called " Croppies
lie down," a tune that was understood by the Roman Ca-
tholics to mean nothing more nor less than " We Protestants
arc your masters, and rise if you dare, you blackguards."—
( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Happy would it have been for
Ireland if a Protestant of this kind bad never been found in
that country. He would support this Bill because he ap-
proved of it, and because such a measure was necessary to put
an end to the feelings that Protestant ascendancy had created
amongst the Irish people.--( Loud cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE did not conceive that the Honourable
Member who had addressed the House was justified by the
course which he himself had pursued in the censures be had
east on the Noble Lord who had commenced the debate.
What had the Hon. Member done ? Ho had gone back to the
history of former times—raked up the quarrels of ,by-gene
days—and told of the injuries which the Protestants had in-
flicted upon the Catholics; but if he were disposed to refer to
the sanguinary retaliations of the Roman Catholics—(Cries of
disapprobation from the Ministerial side of the House)—he
repeated, that if he were disposed to pursue such a course,
end refer to similar occurrences upon tho other vide, it cer-
tainly might render the discussion spirited and interesting, but
by the time that they reached the conclusion of a debate so
conducted, lie did not think it probable that they would have
far advanced in an amicable settlement of the question. The
Hon. Member had said that the Protestant religion had been
rejected in Ireland because it bad been presented in an offen-
sive form. But how did the Hon. Member propose to improve
its advantages? Was it by stripping it of its revenues? Their
great difference was as to the principle on which Church pro-
perty was founded, and also the principle on which that pro-
perty should be applied. There were many who felt that no
portion of that property should be diverted from the strict
uses of the Church. There were, however, many at that side
of the House who thought that a system of national educa-
tion, founded upon Christian and scriptural principles, might
derive support fi am a portion of those revenues. But even
did the means of applying this support exist he denied that
the national • system of education in Ireland was such a
system as the Hon. Gentleman had described. What that
system as it would be difficult to tell. It bid its head in
darkness, and he might fairly presume that it did so because
its deeds were not such as courted inspection. It had been
reported by the Commissioners that a hundred and forty ap-
plications had been made to the Board by Protestant clergy-
men, one hundred and eighty by Presbyterian clergymen,
and
not less than seventy-eight applications from Roman Catholic
clergymen had been complied with. Now, of 'the Roman
Catholic schools receiving assistance from the Board, he
understood that there were no less than forty-eight under
the care of nunneries and other religious orders ; and was it
not to be supposed probable, and he spoke it not to their dis-
credit, that attempts would be made to conduct the education
in those schools under the guidance of these religious bodies
with a view to the advancement of their own particular opi-
nions ? It had been stated that a sum of money granted for
a national school had been applied to the purpose of building
a Roman Catholic chapel. He thought that the Hon. Mem-
ber had over-stated the case with respect to the circulation of
the Scriptures amongst the children educated at those schools.
They certainly proposed to circulate large extracts from the
Scriptures in their books ; but it had been repeatedly alleged
that these books were not read in the schools, but that one copy
was kept there for the purpose of deluding the Commissioners.
—(" No, no," from the Ministerial benches.) He was not
alleging facts—(Cheers from the same quarter)---he was
merely repeating allegations that had been repeatedly made,
which curni,b :a ginuLds for inquiry, and an investiation into
the truth or falsehood of which had hitherto been refused.
(Hear, hear.) Even no less a person than the Prime Minister
himself had declared that he would not ask another vote of
money for these schools until the inquiry demanded should