The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-16 00:00:00

it lie wot

the Easter recess. Therefore, if any time was to
ferred to another, as more suitable for discussing the
tion before the House, surely that time was the '
when they could deliberate upon it longer without,
to the Church than at any other season of the yea,
the Right Hon. Gentleman would also, be anti-",
ject to the mode of proceeding by Committee, and
pronounce it better for Ministers to have at once
a Bill into Parliament for accomplishing their object.
however, that course had been adopted—if, with or
out a notice in his Majesty's speech, they had i
a Bill to effect such changes as they deemed ner
existing tithe laws, would not the Right Hon.
have been the first to say that ►hey had acted
their duty, in not having afforded the amplest .
investigating the subject? He (Mr. Stanley) ki.
Right Hon. Gentleman would have employed these
arguments with that skill which as a political
knew how to practise.
Sir ROBERT PEEL begged the Right Hon.
man's pardon,—he had advanced nothing as to
a Committee.

eystel
to the c
101.,
o this vi
diffi
)roceedir
mod,

was o
and trouble

, and wa
the quart
might
mode;
wo►

cause i
both
and
Were

Some remarks, which we could not catch, passed
the t ible between Mr. STANLEY and Sir R. PEEL,
which,

Mr. STANLEY expressed his regret that his
tions had annoyed the Right Hon. Gentleman.
(Sir R. Peel) had taken a similar licence with him
former occasion.

Sir R. PEEL intimated, in dissent, that the
Hon. Gentleman had prematurely inferred that he
oppose the motion.—(Cries of " Go on.")
Mr. STANLEY resumed—He had certainly
that it was possible that abjection. to the mode
ment was pursuing would be started in some qua
had supposed that it might be objected to Minh
they ought not to hare noticed the subject iu the
speech, unless they were prepared immediately to
forward a remedial measure. He would assume
a line of argument had been adopted, and that
been charged with uselessly protracting the period
tatiun in Ireland. If they bad followed the
volved in those hypothetical objections, then
say that they were trifling with the interests of
and the feelings of the country. Ministers had
charged their duty in advising the recommendation
Royal speech, and in taking the earliest ok
calling the attention of the House to it. It
said (although the Right Hon. Baronet had not
it might be said that the present system worked
that there was no substantial ground for
that among a Protestant clergy and Catholic p.
all they had to do was to maintain the rights
Protestant clergy and support the violated at
the law. If this were true, then indeed
had no excuse for the line of action which
pursued ; they might then be accused of crea
necessary agitation, and it might be said with
that the proposed change was uncalled for.
if the state of the law at present was such
could be hardly, if at all enforced, that if enforced
success of the exertions of Government would
ruin of the cause and the increase of tl
chief—if the triumph, partial and unaat:
increased dissension, if it placed the Protestant
a state of exposure on the one hand to the
of absolute beggary, penury, and exile ; and,
other hand, left them exposed to the charge,
ever unfounded, of avarice, extortion, and oppre
it proved not only injurious to the receiver of the
but equally so to those who paid them, he she
good ground to call on that House to take the
the law into their most serious and delibera'
for the purpose of devising some remedy. He
told that Government was giving way to clam(
lie would ask, were they to be blamed for the
had been occasioned, or because that delay had
the magnitude of the danger, were they in
to leave it to their successors to propose, if
be proposed, a remedy for an evil which
have become altogether insupportable ?
however, had not yielded to clamour. If
of tithes had been refused in the face of the
enactments of former Parliaments, what was it
proof of the necessity of eradicating the root of '
Yet, though he would repudiate the charge of
clamour, he begged to be permitted to state the
of Ireland of late years, or rather during the It
months. Hon. Members would recollect, that la
attempts had been made to excite disorders in that
Various modes of agitation had been resorted
among others, bodies of men, meeting under the ,
ofahmoepaciadlleodr
exacted
traversed
edg,
tithes,andtbe
disturbances. These hurlers were put dow•
threateningpractpractising
ga
all who wg
effects they had produced did not cease with
preasion. The system began in Kilkenny, and
through the counties of Carlow, Queen's County,
part of Wicklow, through Wexford, Tipperary,
County, Longford, and Westmeath. A tacit lat
mined opposition to the payment of tithes, and
midation, had spread more or less through
counties. They had been told that they ought
enforce the laws,—that those who put fors
claim had a right to their protection,—that
.nient due ought to be secured, and that they I
down the spirit of disturbance. To all this
answer, if the House agreed to the appointr
Committee, he would be ready to lay before it
that Government possessed, the course that had
sued, and the results that had followed. But the
should remember that there was latterly no di
nothing of which the law could take hold ; t
of the payment of tithes was tacit and deti
every thing was taken advantage of that did not
to a violation of the law. A Right Hon.
other night endeavoured to show that Go\
placed in a dilemma on this question. He a'
either the claims of the clergy were illegal or fa
If they were legal, he argued that they ougns
forced, and the opposition offered to them should
down. He (Mr. Stanley) would at once say
claims were strictly 'legal,—he never had,
advance any other opinion ; but while there
one side the exercise of a strictly legal 6gh
on the other a strictly legal opposition to
Tithes were liable to certain restrictions—as,
in the mode of collection : while the law
that species of property, it afforded prof
illegal and exorbitant demands. If a man tee
a landed estate of 1,000/. a-year, and the expel !rgy
lecting the income reduced it to 7001., he had tr ion
.44
call on the Legislature to remove the ' •
t s
t'Y e
caused the diminution, nor to complain of alter* ttt
the law that left him his net annual revenue of 0;4
~,
man
stead of his gross revenue of 10001. This was a° Art kkel.::th'
tion in point of the workings of the Irish tithe 10'16 totot, en
supposing that there was no resistance to the ps,,4'j ts,l.4t s
the ecclesiastical dues but that which was authoribregt, 'f he
sanctioned by the law. Among the accusations 'I,
.)(1 flat
clang
lan
against Government there was one which partictilar4 tiletipit.tte°
prised him, because it came from a most unexpeetedlrøs titst 'bug '
Whatever might be said on the subject by other 11) ~e'v
of the House, he assuredly did not expect that 11°01 OeA ac
Hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. G. Dawson) cf°4 ti 4 :f th
the Government with neglecting to give due protetsio',l yf th
the clergy iu the recovery of their right ; for if Ogle') tot,o" Si
clergyman had been especially supported in the .ire 111,t rtei
rigid enforcement of his right, that clergyman wee del,
Hon. Gentleman's own brother—the Dean of St'" 0114,, tah,,p,°°t
Mr. DAWSON rose amidst cries of "order. ‘it,i4;
ged to inform the Right Hon. Gentleman that he tips rtur
tkt f
tinctly exculpated Government. til'ltt
Mr. STANLEY said, that if the Right 1-10°',..cer:, telly; fa'
man had made no such imputation, he would abl'oltvo tiro4rg
showing the ample protection afforded by Governot 4,l°Ltz
the case alluded to. He would only say, that Poi tie„ art
were persons engaged in collecting and distrai°oo; 1,0,7
wl
tithes protected by the police and the military, Itrt fi dot
ebtot
in one instance the cattle that had been seized bad 'Pr f' olo'n
tected until they were driven to theses-beach, fort ,(Wi No'4'
pose of being transported to this side of the water.',,, 111,1:44
hear.) He knew that in stating this fact he WitfitiA CrotY
posing the Government to an imputation of annt'nc' of plyll
On the one hand, they would be accused of °di)! ear,"
the church, and on the other of granting it too ofge'e&
tection. In several counties, but especially in Cari°,,iole for ibel
kenny, and Queen's county, he would not say sof Le ;an
but a general system of opposition to the menet); -001,,t tist;relv
had been adopted. Cattle bad been seized in °;s', 9i:4111'
payment, and the plan was resorted to of coofisiti
40%,
within doors in the day-time, and letting them °° lei, hu
a short period of the night If they were sent rei tonapl]
in the day-time, scouts and signals intimated the ;v. tort
off' 9' Per
of the officers of the laws, and they were driven Ly
seized, no opposition was offered to the law; t`bileLkiliff7
impounded and brought to sale. No man, hoWes.,roi ohttii
expose himself to the odium of becoming a purrObidii
trt,
the tithe collector was obliged to purchase the°3l.l, n
,fl or) (hood
ever They were taken to a distant market ; no man ‘1.01,d
them provender, or give them a night's shelter. '
urea conti I
escorted by police to the sea-shore for the rit,,,t Protect
being sold in the markets of this country, try t Was in;
lotions had been entered into even in this o°ooo aisle,,no man would buy Irish cattle branded, and bf. ‘,llO ttnd to
sale for the payment of tithes.—(Loud cries °' 01 l Bea
from all parts of the House.) Such was the Fro', io Womb]
were called on to meet, and that system, he wouldol.4 the vel
could not meet without an alteration in the Pre'' the ,
cte
What the specific change ought to be he would n°

tol►ent
this mo
his poc
on the

tithe
'ten
thew b

interr
unfavour
ties,
otlat
bets

ntturall)

felt
bee
Right
"here i
olevar
to be a

°testi
%be rex'

still 1
this s
refer
rece
Lot sec

not
but al

, i;y, I
Yolunt
to ha,

req
with
great s

t
lie wot
raft to oelieeded to a i
''bei ontgo:tetdbPierlceq ' P Present
tnadt° tslh)lt.e`,l
.he year:, In this w
ntici,rate°' Without di&
e, and of proceedir
once hr° second mod,
it ohjeee...,Wous and bu
with or 3ndeil was o
lad intr°," and trouble
eces'ary ilihnthing hut a
Hon. Indus, and wa
ed contratiat the quart
Test meen,s plea might
liey) ktir" first mode
ed these ) tourts of
al al opponeq, the cum
,erlht be, both
Hon. u,„Psuded, and
1 to aPlic"' tlthes, were
, )Is Would be
, Passe° settunate eno
;. PEEL, 'idual case,
his Originale 8
at 0 t eat once th,
man. IP w likewise
rith him den seldo
B ~ too equity
hat the ' 111 in
that he Was rernov
1 nls, solvent
rtainly in by this mo
mode 00 of hie Lis
ie quarter' Ns on ths
a telY to
1 Illinc6Etrinvoafttli
litituhpinhemienarstitisehloteet":"..it:".l, , tt Weigloiritahenteca,en:
to
ben woo'
,tea of tithe
este of I, 1 between
9 had belt ' them h
endation it:, tsti inters
It mi,
opportuotil
t unfavour
.!, 'I duti es, wl
not sail' " of the othe
orked s°, tlished bet,
)r comPle, di he entres
tic parish i litinent to I
e rights c', is
ri h Latent tc
ed author„' llt naturally
id Govt." °jotters and
ed for' , Ydliticeletai t'a,
wdl
s such ' stantly per
„forced the
bi
~,to thraui
would " ' ' gight Ho of the bl credit 1
extanti'tiiccshwfraeica:tt hicnre:kc i'iltilints,uhbeicetaTi
to the 1„eal abuse
; and, °' 't,tstld. Th
charge,.or `sing the ti
I 01,Pre,s'iti 11,t3,i1; it let
rof tned te Pariah,
he ahont, 44 When I
take the a ,
~ ,". Fro
tte con'''-oli ti,,,'een felt
, He WOt
ie had bee
clamonit'f, tne Right
r the de'L en, Where i
y had i°,, °}' grievar
, in the Jig to he a
•f it (with me, i
would, I,t he
w
ich
? Ali° the
, 144 . rer
If P ii
.`42 still I
of the of 'a thin this s
it ' 'lth
was
thee 4 t refer
oot of 4 had rece
.., of yieldhl,, ; d not se,
1
:.1-te the c'rit' Pne,••••-fron
the lot ' 111"les, wl
that last 51 t:uki adopt
in tits"- I, add any
'' 1
esorted
tett h., kto not
der the P 0 't, but as
ft co '1 • '
mse,.. the
foh4 suing I
, and fti % tely, by ,
'down, ..:- r 441 Yolunt
with the'ro/44tht to ha,
ay,
and es, ,Inli•orrniv cl
County, '44 law. M
ipperary,
tinletes, and, a
tacit butt law req
Lies, and ,O 14}:hted with
rough a;10.1;11,°,* great s
ought r'" s'f even i
forward - even
; for
the Ittr ,
_that
014
~I eorulnat
t they lb:1
,') aerved
11 this Pet pi Zl''ed at
pOintraen i
.. deterred
Ore it the
_,,fi '21% %t ed
o
had b'Y 7' INh d•
at i , 1
he if th But the f e perso
lo disturbsi
thleed in t
i • the re:,l; ''.4lt use]
i/ '
dd'eidterniootiPloi z4:;:igbyhttsehl, ,
. Baronetotl tilt table e:
GoverorPe 1 kr 4 fill ui
He stag
el, tot %trout
or theYli,V,l %tile just'
y ought I.- t ii t: end no
m shoo!. , q tits i. y,
,
ce say ths, 1) .cl'gllt fi
ad, neve; oet t,,,nts; an
there was ft t 't to ex,
right, thte rici htv,t,tY one i
)n to 011.01 ti, 0 of wh
—as, for 1 , ge ttAten,
law gu ,r 14,ti„ wa
notectiooj i'lle enforce
I man ri of `i
ttif clergy
:,. exPence-0001 viiltliktion 1
e had nOOOOl I ,I,`4et, it 1
reatrict't itl to the
of alter',,, ,s ,tat m„
f jo. rioil •.•
nue • il ." L' ', 'hi
:.
..„,.., an -