The Sun.
London, England, 1825-06-03 00:00:00

BREWERS' LICENCES.

Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition frau the retail and
common brewers of Manchester and Salford, praying a remis-
sion of the restrictions they were subject to in the exercise of
their trade, more particularly as it regarded licences for retail-
ing beer.—Laid on the table.
LEITH DOCKS.

Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from the eight
Southern Districts of Edinburgh against, the Leith D►cks Bill.
The Hon. Member said he would present the petition, though
the prayer of it had been accomplished by the rejection of the
Bill.—Laid on the table.

MR. M'A DAM.
Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from an individual
named James Patterson, a road surveyor, resident at Montrose,
against the grant to Mr. ll'Adam—Laid on the table.
RICHARD CA WALE AND HIS SHOP EN.
Mr. BROUGHAAI presented a petition -from Richard Car-
We and five of his shopmen, at present confined in Dorches-
ter and other gaols, for the publication of blasphemous writ-
ings. The petitioners stated that they had been prosecuted
because they were not Christians, and had published books
which were alleged to be subversive of the Christian faith.
He (Mr. Brougham) wished distinctly to state that he consi-
dered indecent ribaldry and libellous attacks upon the Chris-
tian religion as highly criminal in their nature, and the very
worst step that individuals disbelieving the truth of the Chris-
tian religion could take for the propagation of their prin-
ciples. Supposing the religion of the State to be wrong, and
that those individuals were right in their assumption, they
could in no way more affront and insult persons than by
adopting such a line of conduct. No course could be more
injudicious; and yet, notwithstanding this, he did conceive
the law should nut be administered with a heavy hind upon
individuals who were, he doubted not, enthusiasts and fana-
tics in the dissemination of their opinions. Toleration was
at all times better than persecution, and if they were disposed
to make a foolish attack, it was better that the State should
not make a foolish defence of the religion of the country. The
grand argument of those who advocated prosecutions for such
offences was founded upon a misconception of the harm .which
was likely to arise from those publications to the cause of.re-
ligion ; but he could not conceive that any Kann was likely
to result from free discussion of any kind,_ at least not until
that should be permitted to exceed all bounds, and degene-
rate into ribaldry and offensiveness. Ile considered prosecu-
tions on account of blasphemy as the worst and most injudi-
cious way of defending religion; and he hardly thought tole-
ration could be carried too far as it _regarded the law of the
individuals. concerned.

Mr. PEEL wished to avoid such prosecutions as had. been
alluded to as flit as possible; but the libels published by the
petitioners had been of the grossest kind, and most revolting in
their attacks upon Christianity. Wherever contrition-had beers
manifested by any oldie individuals in question, it had received
the consideration it deserved, as in the case of Carlile'S sister, a
part of whose punishment had been remitted, and be was. free to
add, he believed her subsequent conduct had proved her pot .131-
worthy of favourable consideration.

After an observation froni Sir F. BtrlillEl"r and Mr.
Mosel:, which did not reach the gallery_
illr. PEEL said, an individual convicted as those petitiOners
had been, was confined for a specific period, and afterwards
till a certain fine was paid or bail found for his future good be-
haviour, or both. Now it did appear impossible to rernii any
portion of the punishment till some pledge was obtaiued'.that
the party would desist from a similar line of conduct in fu-
ture : that, and an expression of contrition, he looked upon as
a sine qua non to the attainment of a pardon or remission of
his sentence.

Sir F. BURDE'fT thought it would have been better if Car_
life had been let alone, and that there was great injustice in in..
stituting prosecutions for opinions, however absurd and ridicu-
lous in their nature.
After an observation from Mr. WILLIAM SMITH and Lord
BINNING,

Mr. BROUGHAM said it was but too evident prosechtions
did not-succeed in preventing the works complained of being
openly sold ; any man might have them in the nooii4ay,
and at the ordinary price. There was great injustice in7Pro-
secuting Mr. Cathie for the publication of a cheap work,
and at die same time permitting Mr. Murray or Mr. C`adell to
sell to Lords and Gentlemen, in an expensive form, Giblion's
aTistory of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empira,-with its
anti-Chrisuan chapter, and Which, as the House knew, wi.a.s one
of the most dangerous and subtle poisons in existence. •.
Mr. HUME said they had rejoiced at the dowofal of ;the
Inquisition in Spain, and they now im a gyred individuals in
dungeons,- much after the same way, because they entertained
opinions contrary to the prevalent one upon points -of faith,
and published books expressive of their opinions. Mr; Car-
lile complained that his property had been -detained from him,
and he was kept in prison pending the payment of a fine of
1,500/. ; when, had his property been left under his own con-
trol, it would have enabled him to discharge a fine double,that
-amount. lie wished to submit to the Right Hon. Gentleman
whether some mitigation could not be made in his punisliu
as well as in that of his sistn;

The A'T'TORNEY-GENERA 1, aria the prosecutioni had
effected the object intended to be accomplished, namely; 'the
suppression of the works in question, which were of the most
dangerous, libellous, and blasphemous character,
Air. BROUGHAM said, though these persons had been
punished, an infamous printer, named Benbow, who had lately
edified the public with an edition of a celebrated speech, with
certain comments thereon, had been permitted to publish it
work, in which he openly.justifiedlhe murder of the late Mr.
Pt rceval ; nor was he satisfied with being the apologist of that
assassination, but he .also added that there were many other
Ministers, who, more than Mr. Perceval, deserved the same
fate, and begged that no time might be lost in inflicting on
them summary punishment.—(A laugh.)—The fact was, these
individuals•were permitted to proceed without prosecution un.
til they went to great lengths, and then complaint was iastantly
made that the law was inefficient, and the Six Acts were asked
for; complaint was also made that juries: Would not convict,
which was not the case. Ile never read• 4‘ Palmer's Principles
of Nature," but from what he heard of it, he did not think it
half so dangerous as the combined sophistry and argument of
Gibbon, and the'suhtlety of Hume; yet these books were get e-
rally read—read, too, by his Hon.
_and Learned Friend (the
Attorney-General); he had them, lie made no doubt, on the
shelves of his librarl, and he (Mr. lAtotigham) was sure they,
did not in the least mime the known orthodox theology of his
lion. Friend.—(A laugh.)—Then there, were the Works of Vol-
taire, containing so mucl► mere .ribalk—(Hear, hear!)—in

-the hands of every body ; ladies as well as others read them.--
(A laugh.)—That gross ribaldry was permitted to go abroad,.
corrupting the morals of all the ladies and gentlemen in the
west cad of the town.—( A laugh.)—God forbid that he (Mr.'
Brougham), should wish to prosecute the venders of these
works ; he merely wished to point out the inconsistency.—
tH.ear, hear !)
;The Petition was ordered to be printed.
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN IRE! ND.
Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from an individuall
named James Dowling, complaining of the administration of '
justice in Ireland.—Referred to the Committee on the State of
:Ireland.
CHEAP PUBLICATION OF BOOKS
• -Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from Mr. James
Gifford, a bookseller residing in Paternoster-row. The peti-
tioner submitted to the House the propriety of
dtmmishing—
first,,the duty onprinting paper; secondly, of reducing the ex-
cessive tax on advertisements ; thirdly, of lowering the exor-
tfitant duty on Newspapers ; and further, of repealing forth-
with (what he termed) that useless, odious, and unconstitu-
tional restriction on the liberty of the press, already complain--
etl of ; and lastly, of taking into consideration the propriety
-alfowing, periodical publications to be conveyed through the
medium of the post to all parts of the empire, on payment of
---a moderate sum- for postage, not exceeding, however, in any
''case the amount of 25 per cent. on the value of the snide
transmitted.—Ordered to be printed.
COMBINATION' LAWS.' -
• Mr., HUME presented a petition from 7,950- persons resid-
ing at Nottingham, against the re-enactment of the Combine-
' tion--14aWs.—Ordered to be printed.
RU.M.—BRITISH SPIRITS. -
• Mr. WESTERN wished to know from the Chancellor of the.
Exchequer whether lie would persist in allowing rum to come-in
competition in the manufacture of gin with bonded spirits. A'
- -strong. feeling -prevailed, not only among the barley brewers, but
• among the distillers, that such was his intention ; be was most
anxious, therefore, that the Right lion. Gentleman should give
information on the subject to the House. The Hoe. Member
concluded by moving, that there be laid before the House a
copy of the memorial presented to the Chancellor of the Exche.
- (pier from the distillers of British spirits, respecting the con.
version of rum into gin.
Ori the questiop being put--
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
no'lvish to oppose the motion. He did not think the drocitinent
an official one; .still he had no desire_to take advantage of that
technical objection. As to the question put to him, he would
Northampton
the same answer which lie had given to the Member for
Northampton a week ago. It was his intention when the Dis-
i Oleg Bill should be before the House,
.to move the insertion
- of a clause, allowinkruin to be rectified ; and the difference of
• ditty he proposed to make between British spirits and mints()
allmittet. was Is. 3d. per gallon. He would not then discuss
the measure, but merely state, that not ony did the distillers
• represent it as prejudicial and ruinous, but lose for whose be-
nefit it was intended declared that they expected no good from
it. Being therefore (said the Right Hon. Gentleman) situated
thus between both parties, I think I am pretty much in the
right--(A laugh.)
SEBRIGHT wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to
postpone the measure until the next Session ; in the mean time
additional information might be obtained on the subject.
An I-lon. 51EitnEg,whose name we could.not ascertain, con-

curred in the Hon. Baronet's request.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
if the lion. Members knew the difficulties he had to contend
with from adverse parties, they would not be so sanguine in
Alleir.request. Were he to wait until he could introduce mea-
sures satisfactory to all parties, trade must stand stock still.—
( Laughter.)----Ordered.
TRIAL BY JURY (CEYLON).
Mr. HUME moved for certain Returns connected with the
introduction of trial by- jury in the island of Ceylon.--Ordered.

COURT OF CHANCERY.
Sir F. BURDETT (as we understond.) gave notice, on the
part of an Hon. Friend, that he would, on Tuesday, the 7th
instant, move, that there be laid before the House the minutes
of the evidence taken before'the Commissioners empowered to
inquire into the practice in'the Court of Chancery.—(cleat !)
LUNATIC ASYLUMS.
Mr. HUME moved for Returns- of the number of Licenied
Mail-how-is within the bills'of mortality, and also within the
county of Middlesex, in the years 1821, 1822, and 1823,• dis-
tinguishing the names of the keepers, and the number'of male
and female patients, also the number under twenty-one years of
age. The Hon. Member moved for similar Returns from the
years 1813 to 182,1.• . .
After a few words from Mr. C. W. WYNN, the Returns
were- ordered.

CORN-RETURNS.

Mr. WOODHOUSE, after a few prefatory observation's,''
moved that an hUmble address be presented to his Majesty,
that he issue instructions to his Consuls at foreign ports; that
their attentibn be continued fa the prices of foreign corn, and
that they be directed, in all the accounts hereafter to be trans.
• 'ratted by them, to set forth• the price of corn at their respective
ports ; ,the, amount of freights; and also the probable.length of
tl,,r voyage to England ; and further, that it be an, instruction'
to them to state, as nearly as possible, any peCuliirftres in the
difnrence of exchange between the two countries; the qUintity.
of corn granaried in their respective ports; the expence at
which it came free on board ; and, lastly, a full account of any
restraints which existed, either on the import or export of corn,
to or from these places.
Mr. LEYCESTF.II seconded the motion.
Mr, lILIKIS.,SOiSI had no objection to the motion, nor
deed to and means that were calculated to throw light on the
• importanttiueStion of the Corn Laws. Having said that much,
he need only state, that if the returns were not so satisfactory as I
was expected, itmuit be recollected, that in some of the smaller
ports tie had no respoasible agents, and that it would also be-
ei.ceerliegly difficult, from many causes, for the Consuls to
specify the price of grain, • including the expence of its ship-
ment, &c. He only mentioned those matters to chew that
the returns might be inaccurate, without blame attaching to: the
Consuls.
. Mr; INETT, of Wiltshire, supported the motion.
cuRT EIS was favourable to the present system of
av,t,r." and he hopec! it Would not.be departki from ;
-it *as the onl means of artiving"fairlyat a protecting diny.;--i
Ile wai satisfied with the Corn Laws as they existed at piesent.
• Mr..T.:WILSON remarked, that it v.,as very- 'difficult to
draw, any denclusiOn as to the probable prices of corn on the
- Continent when our ports should be open from what they were
•at present ; he, therefore, thhught I that
.the pr6ent systern
of
av-rage-S 1--a,= exceedingly defective. . • -
Mr. W. WHITIVIORE observed; that it was desirable that
the Hoike shottld be in possession of all possible information he-
fore it came to the diScusSion of the question of the Corn Laws,but
one thing he. wi lied .10 guard his Hon. Friend, the-Member for-
~otfo!k,
viz.-from deceiving -himself, with respect-to the.
present rate of freight, and the influence that it would hai.e on
-the prilee or corn, as it could hot*possibly be the same when the
-ports•y;tcre:OiVip tie it was'at. present. In his opinion, the evi-
giyen SoIIY before the' Committee contained
,Mor,h,,informatiOn on tha:stbject, by which= he thought they
might be'Wery guided'; it 'would then• also be' found that the
average.price OE coin for the last :49 yeaas had
.been.4ss:

'per quarter. .•
51 T,
,WOI3tHOUSE remarked, in answer to whit haff-been
said about the aireragei 'for the las/42 years, that those averages
were Made up in such a manner as. to impose a grosi delusion-
, sipotthe Pertinent and the "country.
IVlr:*See'rstarylCAlCNlNG ingested a Slight alteration, in
. th
wOfdiiig of. that part df the motion' *bleb related' to ',the
• price oftorn,: free bOard, by introducing the words "as far
$s mighe.he.pratifeible," as the Ursula would find it a Mader
Of some 06644 to ascertain with preeisiOn What those prices
•
Were.-2.-The mOtiog,„ was then agreed w. "
BUBBLE ACT. • -
• • •The ATTORNEY-GENERAL hoped for the indulgence
" of the 11-Oirse for: a -fa:is mo-aients, whilst he stated his. reasons
for wish:rt to repeal so'.irueh of the Bubble. Act as related to
cle•ne Stock*:Cenwanies. •One -reason was,. that it had la.. ly
been discitised in•botli•Courts of La* and Equity, when it was
on hands to be perfectly. unintelligible.—(Bear,_
hear !)--When he coupled with that circumstance that the Act
.alluded.to contiintd a rlause subjecting to all .the penalties of
premwsire such person-8 as should violate its provisions he
thought he-had establisfletl sufficient grounds for its repe;l.
Another-groisud for moving the repeal of that Act was, that
those .esiablistairents which have vested large capitals for 'the
purpose of effecting insurance upon lives and against fire, moat,
according to the interpretations of the Act, be considered ille-
gal, and it therefore became necessary to repeal it; as a' protec-
uon ni.thor • Companies which had been associated under the
fu I conedente'Of there-being no law to affect them. These were
the ginunds upon which he meant to move for the repeal of the
Act. But it might be-asked whether it would not be better to
substitute itonieparticaar enactment' applicable to the subject,
• instead 'of -the lota' repeal. He would frankly confess that such
Was his-Cifiginal. intention ; but after having considered the
!natter more, he had taken up an Opinion that
it would be useless and inexpedient to adopt any other mea-
*tire' than that which he proposed. Up to the 17th century,
thin~: all the changes of W growing commercial power, there
tieverbad been any complicints of the evil which the Bubble
Act was supposed td repress • and when in the year 1720 that
Act,v, :passed, which had been much misunderstood, and
Which- tetnally was intended as a protection to that which it was
generally thought to prevent; it had remained on the Statute
Book Nal that time until the year 1810 or 1812, without more
th-ssi it aingle'-piilge•eutioir under its protisions,- and that prose-
cution, he believed, by no means well under ; it was hardly
necessary, therefore, he thought, to adopt any legislative mea-
stuPein the place of, a law which had been hitherto practically

considered as a mere dead letter. He had therefore considered,
under all the circumstances, that it would be better to move the
simple repeal of the Act, leaving it of course in the power of
any Gentleman who thought proper to introduce a- BiWhir the
regulation of any parts of the la* whio be-might consider ne-
cessary. He begged leave to say here, that it was not his in-
tention to interfere with any actions or suits at law which might
have been commencedbefore the repeal of the Act t and he in-
tended, therefore, to introduce a clause, excepting all such
actions, because he -did not think it just to interfere
,with those proceedings which had been taken under the
supposed sanction of an Act of Parliament. Arother
measure he proposed to add was for the purpose of increasing
the facility of obtaining grants of charters. At- present, when
a number of persons associated under a charter to perform cer-
tain acts or carry on business as a Company, they were not liable
to the debts of that Company beyond the amount of the pro-
perty actually invested. There had been, therefore, at all times,
considerable reluctance on the part of the Crown to grant char-
ters, and it had been the custom to bring in a Bill in the first
place into Parliament, by which the Crown was enabled to
grant a charter, and then to apply for the charter itself, there-
by doubl'ng the ex once, because there was first the cost of
carrying the Bill through its stages in Parliament, and then
the cost of the charter itself. 'What he proposed now was, to
introduce a clause rendering individual members, applying for
charters, liable for the debts of the company to the full extent
of dial effects, and empowering _he Crown to grant charters
eiccordin
'thinking,
judgment of the propriety of the particular
cases. therefore, upon the grounds he had men-
tioned, that it was necessary to repeal the clauses of that Act,
and grant the powers alluded to, he would more, " That it is
expedient to repeal such parts of the Act of the 6th Geo. I. chap.
18, as relates to Partnerships and Joint Stock Companies."
Colonel DAVIES said he conctiteed in the motion. It was
necessary that die law should be cleer and defined with respect
to • joint stock companies. There Would, however, be no occa-
thiti bill, if the law had beeinleft to act on the principle
laid down .by that able and enliihffped Judge, lerd Ellen-
borough. He wished the Hon.: afidLearned Gentleman had
gone a little farther, and introdticed softie additional measure for
the regulation of joint stock companies. It:could not be ex-
pected that a Noble and Learned land (Eldon) would support
this bill, after what he had declared in another place with re-
speet to joint stock companies. The Noble and Learned Lord,
could not, in consistency,: support it.
itlre HUSK ISSON said theobjection of the Hon. Gentleman
(Col. Davies) was, that the bill would meet with difficulties
elsewhere. Before the Hon. Member made such an objection,.
he ought to he quite sure that he gave a correct interpretation-
to the opinion of the Noble and Learned Person to whom he
alluded. He never understood that the Noble and Learned Lord
had maintained that joint stock companies were prejudicial.—
The principle laid down by Lord Ellenhomugh was, that no
companies not. prejudicial to the public, could be considered
as coming under the law, anti this decision the Hon. Gentleman
(Colonel Davies) seemed to think sufficient without any further
Act. When so many Companies were every day arising, be
would put it to the I-louse whether it would be fit to leave it to
the opinion of a judge, or the decision •of a jury, as to what
Companies were prejudicial or not to the public.—(Hear !)
The only object of this Bill was not, as the lion. Gentleman
seemed to think, to remove the penalties of a prcenzunire. For
his part, he was anxious that all Companies should he allowed
to follow theirown judgment in their commercial pursuits. It
would, he was persuaded, soon appear that the power of suing
and being sued, would be an adequate remedy for every con-
venience. All the difficulties at present existing would be
obviated, by the introduction into the Charters, of the clause
suggesteti by his Hon. and Learned Friend (the A ttorney-t :e-
-neral). His Hon. and Learned Friend had done that for which
the whole commercial world would be much indebted to hint,.
and he trusted, therefore, that every countenance would begiven
to his proposition..
Colonel DAVIES said, so far from opposing the motion., he
seconded it. lie Learned himself heard the Noble,and Lind
say, that a greaedeal of mischief had arisen fn se Joint Stock.
Companies, . ,• . • '
Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, he greatly approved of the men-.
sure. It would be extremely beneficial to Scotland. In that
country they had long proceeded on the idea that the Pith Gen.
I. was a dead letter, which night give rise to great inconvee
nience, as a great deal of the property of- Scotland bad arisen
from the establishment of Joint Stock Compenies. Ile wished
-to know whether-the proposed -measure was to extend to that
country
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that a measure was
to be introduced by a Noble Lord in another House, which
would apply to Scotland.. '
.. Mr. DENMAN expressed his approbation of the Bill. The
principle laid down by Lord Ellenhorough would be a most in_
convenient one to'act upon. Companies that had existed for
many years might be declared a nuisance, if a Jury were to pro-
- nounce an opinion upon their own view of what was or was not,
prejudicial to the public. The, only cases in which a ques-
tion of this kind arose were in 18011- and 1817 ; and then the
Companies were found to be beneficial. This Act of the 6th
Ueo. I. came too late for the object it proposed to have in view.
All the mischief had been done before-it passed. The moat
effectual way would be to repeal it. With respect to the other
.part of the Bill, the power proposed to be conferred on the
Crown in granting charters, there would be a future opportu-
nitY for considering it.
JUDGES' SALARIES. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it had
been desired to bring on the question of, the, Judges' Salaries
before the grants to the Duchess of Kent and the Duke of
Cumberland. • lle had `no 'objection to accede to this a-. range-
went, on condition that the other motion should come on ;Ids
evening.-. 4 Hear !)
The House then went into the CoMmittee, -Mr. CRObEit.in
the Chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; that the
only business beftire the Committee was' to settle the amount of
the retired: allowances of the Judges. At- present they were
2;600/. per annum for- the Puisne Judges, which lie -should
propose to raise MAI. per annum, so as to make them 3,100/.
The present retired allowance for the Vice-Chancellor,
the Master of the Rolls,- the Chief Baton :of •the Court of
Exchequer, and the Chief Justice of the Cominon- Pleas, ncas
3300/. ; these he should propose to raise to 3:.410/.- • That- of
the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench was 38001.; Per
annum, and lie should propose to make it 40001., and thus
equal it to those of the Lord Chancellors of England and of
Ireland. There was another resolution he should submit, which
MIS of meritnem, stating that such fees as should cease to be
taken by the Chief Justices and Puisne Judges should be car-
ried to the Consolidated Fund. This would not prevent the
House front going hereafter into the question of fees more fully,
to ascertain how far it was practical to relieve suitors from their
present heavy expences, without throwing too much on the
public. There was one particular class of fees which required
consideration, those accruing on frivolous writs of error, writs
of delay —(Wear !)—lt would be a great advantage to the pub-
lic to abolish those welts, and the matter was now under the
consideration of Government. The Bight Hon. Gentleman
then moved the first -resolution, that the retired allowance of
the Puisne Judges be raised to 3,1001. per annum.
- Mr. .1. WILLIAMS said, it was important that thecountry
should obtain the services of Judges at the most efficient period
of life. It was desirable to get the best possible Judges, and at
the same time to have them quit the bench as soon as they
ceased to be in a condition well to discharge their duties. By
giving large salaries,. Judgee might he obtained in- the prime
of life, and during the vigour of their intellects, but it was
necessary to -hold out some inducement for them to quit the
Bench before their-natural and mental powers -should become
impaired. That inducement would be best afForded by an in-
crease of the retired allowance. He, should move as an amend-
ment, that instead of 5001., 90(V. be: added to the present suns,
so as to make up 3,500/. per'annum.
Mr; DENMAN supported the san'endrivent, aml.he.couldoot
conceive any reasonable-objection to it.
Mr. Secretary PEEL'eaid, that be.. had no objection to any
arrangement by which good and effiejent judges might be pro-
cured. But as his Right Honourable-Friend had proportioned
this 'scale ‘of retired allowances, with reference to that of
the other Judges, it must follow, in justice, that if this be
' raised, the others ought to be so likewise ; besides, , the Chief
officers-of State had a Smaller retired allowance than the pre-
sent-proposition, and he 'did not feel himself called upon to
. alter it; still he was ready to comply with whatever might be the
general feeling of the Muse: Before he sat down, he would
reply; to an observation of-the Learned Gentleman (Mr. J. Wil-
liams), dropped in the course of. the former discussion of this
Bill—that the Judges of Common Pleas and Exchequer did
less for their salaries than those of the King's Bench. He
begged to say, that from his official situation he knew that they
were -called upon to discharge a great deal of very arduous busi-
ness which did not come before the public. They were obliged
to advise on criminal cases—to examine private hills—to give
opinions on tax cases--and fo appear before the House of Lords.
In short, they avere,Constantly occupied in the most important
duties.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS explained, and said that he had never
meant to convey-any charge against the Judges of those Courts ;
he only observed, that owing' to several accidental causes, such
as the skill of the advocates, &c. there was more business in
the Court of King's Bench, titan in the other Courts. He
wished to see the business reduced to something like an equa-
lity. He had spoken with Chief Justice Best on the subject of
the salaries:, and-that Learned Person expressed the greatest
satisfaction with.the alteration which had taken place, and the
- mode of payment _now adopted in place of fees.
e Mr. Secretary PEEL' explained.
Dr. LUSH INGTON saide -the only question before the
House was; whether 3,1001. per annum was such an allowance
as would secure effi:ient Judges. lie, would declare on his

honour that he had klibvin_several instances where, in conse-'
quence of an_lpsufaieMallowanee, judges had remained on
the Bench till they.ieere• whollYincapable of adequately
charging their duty..-.lt Was the intist absurd parsitnc,PY to in-
-cur Such a danger by any liMitation of the retired idinviOces•
NO man Ought-to be djudge, whO was' not in full posSessiop of
his' bodily and mental faculties. 'When the salary was 3,504,
and the allowance 3,1t10L, kJudge would remain as long a's lie
could on the Bench, Partly because. of 'the long habits of his
life, and partly from difference of income. Bylessenindthat
difference, and making the latter sum 3,5001. the temptation
to adhere to the Bench would be considerably abated. The
expence to the country would be a mere trifle. As to the other
retired allowances he was willing to increase them in the same
proportion if GOvernment should propose it. It was not a
question of pitiful economy, but of large importance to the.
country. There was a distinction in the cases of the Lord
Chancellor and the Chief Justices, because they had much
patronage. He was sure the country would benefit by adopt-
ins the amendthent.
Mr. DENMAN said that judges did not* retire until after a
fixed period, and on the certainty of an income; but the high
officers of state retired without any regard.to any allowance, but
from political and temporary causes. With regard to what had
been said of the duties of judges he would observe, that all their
duties ought to be openly performed. It was a bad practice for
the judges to decide on questions of criminal law in private and
without hearing Counsel.
The Arr ORNEI%GENERAL said that the judges, when
they had any doubts and differences with respect -to criminal
cases, always called in Counsel. It was only when they
agreed in opinion, that they decided in private. He had con-
sidered this subject Seriously, iod hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. would consent to the Amendment—(lcer !),—lt
should be remembered that the judges were not chosen until
they had arrived at a mature age, and then they were obliged
to sit on the Bench 15 years before they were allowed to re-
hea!!)--Ile agreed with the Leatned Civilian,
that cases hod, occurred of persons remaining on the' Bench till
they were ineompetent to fulfil their duties. As the [louse had
originally fixed the • salary of the Puisne Judges at 6,000/.„
which had been reduced to 5,5001. lie would observe that the'
5001. so ablteil; if laid out in the purchase of annuities would,
at the end 4 iiftcen years, more than pay the addition to the,
retired alloNanoes, so that. nothing could be lost to the country.
Mr. J. P. G And Mr. W. WHIT:MOUE both support-
ed the amendment. „ ,
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that as it appeared to be the
general sense of the House that the larger sum would be pre-.
tenable, he should not oppose it.—(Hear.!)—Nothing could be-
more pleasant than to give way on such a point. Still he must
.say that it watt clear to the House that Government had in no
way attempted to influence the Judges by the proposition.—
'For himself,. he would declare that lie felt it to be a subject
,of great delicacy, and had not spoken with any Judge about
it. In acceding to the amendment, he would tell the Com-
mittee that the matter was not quite so simple as it seemed.
They must take into consideration the situation of the other
judicial personages in this country, and also in Ireland and
Scotland. .

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed his
readiness to agree with the general sense of the Committee.—
His sole. wish was
.to- secure an efficient body of Judges, and if
that could be best effected by the larger allowance he would
acquiesce- in it. With regard to the other allowances, they
ought to be also increased, though not • perhaps in the same
proportion. lie had intended to move that they should be
3,500(. ; he would alter them to 3,7501.--t Hear !)
Mr. C. WiLsoer gave his assent to the amendment. '
The amendment was then put, that a retired allowance of
3,5001. per annum be granted to the Puisne Judges, which was
carried unanimously.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, that
a retired allowance
.Of 3,7501 per annum be granted to the
Master of the Rolls, the Vice-Chancellor, the Chief .Justice of
the Gonfalon Pleas, and the Chief Baron of the Exchequer. • 1
Mr. HUME asked whether the 'Master of the Rolls was .!
"obliged to, serve fifteen years before he was entitled to the al- .;
lowance ? Ile wished also to say, that as the salaries of the
Paine Jtulges had been reduced from 6,0001. to 5,500/. it was
but fair that 500/. should be taken from his salary of 7,004)l. be- -
fore any addition was made to his retired allowance.
Mr. Secretary PEEL referred to the Act of Parliament, by
'Which it appeared that this officer must serve 15 years before he
could retire on his allowance.
Mr. HUME asked if it was intended that all the offices in
the Courts of Law shOuld be performed in person, and that
deputies should be abolished ? It would he better to buy.
up such as were patent offices rather than suffer the abuse to
continue .any longer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the
1 House that f.s:'faSi as the holders of sinecures died off Govern-
' ment Watild take:care that the provision of the law should be
enforced and. Offices,should be performed in person and not
by deputy. The-salaries would be fixed with reference to the
extent of duties performed. The offices snider the King's Bench
and Common Pleas Courts would be regulated in the Bills he
Intended tospreseritto:Pe House. The patent
.offices could not
he destroyed withoilt the consent of the present holders.
Mr. HUME anticipated the greatest benefit from these 1.e..
forms. He wished Ifieni to be extended to the Court of Chan-
cery, .
Gofertunept- would do right in buying up the patent
-offices. '•
The resolution was then put and carried, and the House re.
sum ed.
unoicEn brought up the resolutions, and the report was
Ordered to be received to-morrow (this day.)
ROYA, MESSAGE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
' Order of the Daj, for the second reading of the bill, providing
for the Education of the young Duchess of Kent.
Mr. LE \TESTER said, that all parties agreed in praising
the conduct of the Duchess of Kent. If this sum 0f.6,0001. were
meant for her use, it would have been more respectful to have
voted it to her at once, and to have allowed 1,0001._a-year which
was quite enough for the education of her daughter. -The mat-
ter. ought to be-transacted in a plain, open, and respectful.way,.
and not as if the House were ashamed of its own acts.

.. _
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow (thiS day).
'lie Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill
making provision for the Education of the son of his Royal
highness the Duke of Cumberland was read, and on the motion
that. the Bill be read. a second time " now," the House imme-
diately divided, when the numbers were—
For the second reading - - .59
Against it - -48
Mijority . . . —ll
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted to-morrow (this day.)
While we were excluded from the gallery, we understand that
a debate took place upon a point of order, as also upon matters
relevant to the proposed grant ; but what was said on the sub-
ject to which reference was made, we could not venture to give
an outline. We heard that after Members went out to divide,
they were again called into the House, but upon what grounds
we could not learn.—When we returned to the gallery the
House was proceeding to the other Orders of the Day, but
the confusion in the lobby of the House, as well as in the
gallery, was so great, that we were for some moments before
we could hear upon what particular subject the House was de-