The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-19 00:00:00

the subject was a most important one, and that he should _
direct his attention to it with the assistance of Mr. An- I
derson and Mr. Hopkinson.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 18.
SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. Mr. J. B. SMITH said, in the event of war, many of
the old stores would be valuless. For instance, there
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) were flint guns of the value of 145,0001., which, as per-
Mr.V. SMITH did not think that his Noble Friend at cussion guns were used, would be worthless. The per-
Mr.Go-
the head of the Treasury had treated the observations of vernment should be careful not to get an accumulation of
the Hon. Member for Montrose with fairness. What that useless stores.
Hon. Member complained of was not that there was a
Colonel ANSON was understood to say that the guns
sufficient quantity of stores for warlike operations, but
referred to could be rendered available.
that while there was a sufficient stock they were conti- The vote was then agreed to.
Busily adding to it.—(Hear, hear.) Now every one 236,4361. was next 'proposed for works at Bermuda
knew that just in proportion as the stuck increased the and in the Mauritius.
establisment must increase.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH complained of
in this age of science and civilization new discoveries the expense which these works had entailed upon
were continually being made which entirely superseded this country. During the last few years they
the old ones, just as the application of detonating locks had paid 2,000,0001. on account of - them. This
had thrown aside the old flint and steel.—(Hear, hear.) vote was for works at Mauritius, Bermuda, and
Then, besides this loss, there was always the waste of the lonian Islands. It was said that military works were
r perishable materials to increase the expense and reduce required at the Mauritius, because the inhabitants were
the value of the stock. Much observation had been hostile to us, and that if we once lost it, we should have
made upon the defence of the colonies, but it should be great difficulty in regaining it; but this he de-
recollected that in those dependencies which could pro- nied. Already 10,000/. had been expended on the
perly be called colonies there was now a maturity of works at Bermuda, and 5,000/. more was now proposed
inherent vigour which quite enabled them to take care to be voted; and as the works would require altogether
of themselves. And when such a stage was reached in 216,0001., it followed that it would be 40 years before
all private relations the system was adopted of leaving •
those who were able to take care of themselves; so it they were completed. He objected, therefore, to both
these votes, and hoped that the works would be discon-
ought, in his opinion, to be followed in all matters of
public moment, and the troops, therefore, which were timed. He objected also to the vote for the lonian
Islands, which had already put this country to an enor-
retained for the defence of the colonies ought to be paid mous outlay.
by those in which they were garrisoned. As to those places Colonel ANSON supported the vote.
which were only fortresses, in which troops were eta- Colonel THOMPSON, as a matter of curiosity, wanted
tioned for the general advantage of the empire, of to know the good of Corfu. He bad been up to the
course the expense of sustaining them ought to come Gulf of Venice, but had never seen Corfu.
out of the Consolidated Fund.—(hear, hoar.) But he Sir DE LACY EVANS deprecated the present vote,
did protest against their keeping up an armament that and trusted that it would he the last required for such a
was capable of exterminating all Europe; and looking purpose.
upon the present state of our foregn relations, the est is Mr. HUME thought that this vote required revision,
and that a great deal of money had been wasted in use-
matee appeared to him to be greatly disproportionate to
less fortifications.
the requisition of the public service.—( Hear, hear.? He
was aware that the report of the Committee, of which he Mr. V. SMITH thought this fortification question
had been a member, was not intended to take effect this ought to be considered before next session, with a view
session; but he sincerely trusted it would not be lost to its revision. He found fault with a system
sight of, and,that it would be carefully considered before that prevailed in the ordnance department of
it was entertained in another. applying the money voted for
postponed works to the
Lord J. RUSSELL explained that he meant to throw construction of emergency works, as it had the effect of
to imputation upon the assertions of his Hon. Friend, reducing the Parliamentary superintendence over the
expenditure to a mere farce.
out he only meant to say that, though expense might be
incurred, it
su
fficienthad of defence.
Mr. HUME also wished to explain, that though he pose money voted for another. It could not be too called attention to the system of applying to one pure
was by no means opposed to every necessary requisite strongly condemned, and he hoped the Chancellor of the
provision for defence, yet he thought that there need be Exchequer would take steps to put a stop to it.
no needless outlay for that purpose. And he would take Sir J. GRAHAM said the Committee, in the report
the Noble Lord's own illustration for the purpose. If
the London merchant had found one watchman quite which had been referred to, had not only pointed out
the evil, but suggested the remedy. They recommended
sufficient for the protection of his premises, why that where any
sum was expended for unforeseen services
should he increase the force from the apprehension or urgent works, of which Parliament had no cognizance,
of a danger which might never arise? for if from any the Treasury should be called upon, when the estimates
such groundless fear he added three or four watchmen were proposed next year, to record the reasons which
to the establishment, he would be justly chargeable with had induced them to make the advances.
an extravaganee from which no possible benefit could The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
arise.—(Hear and laughter.) The instance was the more there could be no doubt that there were cases of urgency,
striking as the money to pay for it came out of other in which it would be absurd to say that persons on the spot
people's pockets.—(Cheers.) should not be allowed to take upon themselves the re-
- COBDEN believed that Government, could ob- sponsibility of incurring expense. There were only two
Mr ...
~lahe tp ve rye. article -they required- cheaper from
, ,enterprise ahans.they could snaanufacture- it.--(Hear,
.11 sum annually for unforeseen contingenciee; second)y, to
' . heir.)__ The.Gavernment were abouato bring in a, Bi t postpone other works for which sums had been voted
: ..J t 9. take railway stock, he thought. they had better take I. in order to . meet the expense of these unforeseen
their ~Dirn.,lttock first.—,(Hear, hear.) He- thought . to- circumstances. He was sure he should have the con-
keep up large ordnance storea.was totally unttecearry„
, and aught_rei. longer to continue. - The Hon. Member vote
House that it would not be advisable to
vote a sum annually for such "tontingencies. It would
etepre.eated t tea .ceustic terms the, desisee-the was be a much better plan for the Treasury to make a re-
-- dispheyed -by the GOvernineht to create establish- turn every year of the advances which they had made in
ments on every barren rock in the world,
cases of this kind.
and particularly alluded, as evidence of that, to
Sir JAMES GRAHAM bore witness to the excellence
Hong-Kong and Libuan. He thought the ob- of the form in which the estimates were laid before the
serrations of Mr. Sidney Smith with respect to the Tories House, but complained that there were occasional mis-
was doubly applicable to the present Government. The takes in filling up the different columns.
Honourable Member then referred to the ex- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had had
travegant stock of stores that was kept, and de- his attention already drawn to this. He was fully cog-
signated it as not only useless, but improper. nizant of the importance which attached to the correct-
Now, why keep such an amount of stores always in stock, ness of these papers.
when any extraordinary supply could be obtained at a Mr. COBDEN observed that the subject of the lonian
fortnight's notice, if they chose to give a small additional Islands had been brought before the House by an Hon.
price? The effect of keeping this enormous amount of Member—and he wished to inform the House that many
stores was, that last year a quantity of old stores high authorities, including the Marquis of Lansdowne
were sold for 760,000/., which he had no and Lord Brougham, had objected to this country taking
doubt had originally cost upwards of three possession of these islands. The estimates of the works
millions. A notice had already been given, that in the in these islands were, even on the evidence of Sir John
course of a year or two the Australian colonies would Burgoyne, . the Inspector-General of Fortifications,
be expected to provide their own stores for the forces not much to be relied on. The only way in which
engaged in the colonies. That he c snsidered was an ex- they could avoid such lavish expenditure was to make
celleut system, and Government ought to be encourag-d up their winds not to expend any more on foreign for-
in carrying it out. He for one would extend it to tification. He thought that there was very little need
Canada and all the other colonies who claimed the right to keep on adding to the fortifications of such places as
of self-government. The colonies themselves were not Malta and Gibraltar. He thought that our naval pre-
averse to doing so, but what they objected to was, eminence, which was put forward as an excuse
adopting the policy of the Home Administration. for so doing, was of itself sufficient to pre-
They objected to taking to the existing stock of serve them. The Marquis of Wellesley in 1816 had
stores and keeping up the forces upon the made a speech which entirely supported him iu this
present extravagant scale.—(Hear, hear.) He did doctrine—a speech which, if he, Mr. Cobden, were now
not suppose that the colonies could take this responsi- to make, would lay him open to the attacks of Honour-
bility upon themselves now, but what he contended for able Gentlemen opposite, who would charge him with
was the principle that the time must come, and come wishing to abandon all the colonies. The only way to
soon too, when the colonies must not expect any contri- reduce the expenditure in this quarter was to stop our
butions from the Exchequer ot the mutherscoun:ry towards hands there altogether.
the support of their forces. Since 1835 the ordnance The vote was then agreed to.
forces had been doubled; bat then,, said the Noble Lord On the question that 49,859/. be voted for the scien-
at the head of the Government, e+ we have reduced the title department of the Ordnance,
taxes." Now, that argument was a glaring fallacy. The Mr. HASTIE was very much rejoiced that the debate
taxation had not been diminished ; it had only been had taken place to-day. He had no doubt it would be
shifted from one shoulder to another, and so far productive of much good. • He should be glad to know,
from the taxation having been reduced, he was in reference to this vote, what progress was being made
prepared to prove that since the Duke of in the Ordnance survey. .
Wellington's Government it had increased five millions. Colonel ANSON said money was being applied to it
He hoped, therefore, the Noble Lord would not cog- from time to time.
plain of the tone an-I temper of these remarks, or con- Mr. COBDEN and Mr. HUME complained that the
eider him unjust, when he told the Government that by public had great difficulty in procuring the Ordnance
the commencement of next session they must be pre- maps.
pared with_ proposals fur large reductions in the ex- Col. ANSON said they could always be had at the
penditure if they wished to retain the confidence of the Ordnance office.
people.---(llear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN suggested that a central depot should
Lord JOII N RU.S eELL could not complain of the be established in London, where stationers could procure
tone of the Honourable Gentleman's remarks, or of these maps without difficulty.
the principle he ha-I laid down, that before the The eeport was then agreed to.
Government undertook the manufacture of particular On the question that 86.669/. be voted for defraying
articles the onus probandi rested with them to the expense of the non-effective civil and military ser-
show that the articles could not be supplied to vices attached to the Ordnance,
greater advantage by private individuals; but he Major BLACKALL complained that more colonels
eould not agree with him that it was not neces- retired from the engineers and artillery on full pay than
sary to keep up the present amount of stores. from all the 146 battalions of the lime, owing to some
The Hon. Gentleman's principle Ras, that a great part undue regulations having been made in their favour.
of the defence of our colonies should be thrown on the Mr. F. MAULE was understood to say that the
colonies themselves. Now, Esrl Grey, when he entered Gallant Major was mistaken in his latter conclusion.
into office, adopted the principle; and he (Lord John Mr. HUME took that opportunity of recommending
Russell) thought that, in many instances, it might Government to reduce the expenditure on cadetships.
After some obServations from Colonel ANSON and
be carried out with great advantage. If, however,
they were to say that they intended no longer Mr. es
vOMIDEN,
to undertake the den-nee, for instance, of the citadel of Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the disputes in the
Quebec, he was afraid that such a declaration would be River Plate were now near a termination.
looked upon as a virtual abandonment by this country The vote was then agreed to.
of Canada. The true wisdom was to steer between The 1-1,-use then resumed, and the report was ordered
two extremes, viz., taking upon ourselves the en- to be brought up on Friday. p
tire defence of the colonies, and refusing to con-
tribute ' •
tribute any assistance whatever for that purpose, ADVANCE OF MONEY (ATHLONE TO GAL-
which he thought would show that we cared no WAY RAILWAY) BILL.
longer about our colonial empire. Very large This Bill, as amended, was considered in C inruittee.
and serious questions were connected with Several verbal alterations were made, and the Bill was
this subject, which would be maturely considered by the agreed to.
Government, with a view, on the one hand, of having no On the motion that the report be brought Up,
unnecessary expenditure, and, on the other, of endea- Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had given a very
-souring to act fairly and with goodwill towards our reluctant assent to this measure, believing that it
colonies, which, he believed, would not only enhance the was dangerous to give out-door relief in Ireland; but
greatness of this empire, but the cause of civilisation, as this advance of 500,0001. was the second that had
Mr. COBDEN said, he had a high opinion of. Earl been made for railways in that country, he thought he
Grey, and he looked to him for great and beneficial was justified in asking the Chancellor of the Exche-
changes in the constitution of our colonies..' quer to give an assurance that this would be the last
Mr. ELLIS had bad the honour. ahring Taira' ken. advance that he would propose to make for such spe-
bourne's Administration, to be- one, sit a Commission culations.
along with the. Noble Lord at the. -head of the present The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not prepared to give the assurance which the Right
Government, appointed to inquire ins° this matter now
before the House, and that CommiSeion had seen the HOn.Baronet required. He considered that much good
necessity of some central control over the expenditure. would be done to Ireland in encouraging enterprise -by
He must press upon the attention of the Noble Lord making such advances.
the necessity of reform, unless they wished to have a
After a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH and, SW H.
renewal el these disunions. WILLonaaBY,
./e.lr. GIIOGAN. suggested
_ that all the enactments of
Mr.. HUMS called the attention of the House to the
•• railway Bills its Ireland with regard to taking land
increase Of the vote for barracks during the last few
years. In 183.5 and 1836 the vote was 85,000 L Since should be re-considered.
then it had been increasing gradually until this year, The motion was agreed to
when it was 183,000/. As lung as they maintained the The Relief of Distress (Ireland) and the House resumed.
land) Bill was read a third
immense number of soldiers they had at present, with the time and passed.
preposterously large lAA; in all direction, they must keep The report of the Customs Act was received and
up a proportionate amount of artillery. There never agreed to, after a short discussion.
had been such a lavish expenditure in such items in this DISEMBODIED MILITIA BILL.
country before. Until tlier,, was in this country, as The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
there was in others, a Minister of War, to whom the Mr. HUME wished to see the militia disbanded alto-
er.tire responsibility might be entrusted, there
_would gether.. It had cost more than 8,000,000/. of late years,
always be a great waste from the divided authority of . and Was-of no earthly useq- except to provide berths for
our present system. • colonels of regiments. lie objected to the principle of
Colonel ANSON said the position which he held conscription by which the militia was filled up.
forced him to , say a few words. he thought that Mr. FOX MAULE thought t,lsat the Hon. Member
his Honourable Friend had not stated .correctly the was wrong in calling the system of filling up the militia
increase in the votes, for this -year, and -former a system of conscription.
years. The expense had certainly been increased, but The Bill went through Committee, and the report
the Governne. ut had thought it rsquisite:to increase the was ordered to be brought up to morrow.
strength of the army, and he thought the House wet/Id The Administration of Justice (Vancouver's Island)
be inclined to support them in their determination. The Bill was read a third time and passed.
expenses of the establishment at home had decreased, Mr. HAYTEti obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
but those abroad had increased to the addi- authorise her Majesty to appoint Commissioners to in-
nc d owing
tional colonies which they
hail acquired. As to quire into the claims over the New Forest and Waltham
the increase in estimates for barracks, the Forest.
et On the
htohfpe
produce
oilmotion(ludeclaredceanodf ll r,
manufactures
valuell A
of
Government had
complaints extend
. ci barrack
awrhteircsh.
an account was or-
accommodation from thedaerOri
ftheexvpaorirteouds
taorttihceleßs
roi.f
had been' forced upon them from all
lie did not stand there as an advocate for keeping up tieh West India colonies, for the years ending the sth
large quantities of stores, and if the Government thought day ofJanuary, 1840 to 1849, with the rate of duty on each
it expedient not to do so, they would be reduced. Why, article in the colonies; amid of the quantities of the prin-
the old guns would- not fetch 21. a ton; so that on the cipal articles of the growth and manufacture of the Bri-
ground of economy it would not be expedient to sell fish West India colonies imported into the United King..
them. The Government, during the recess, would take dum; and of the quantities cleared for home consump-
the whole of the report into consideration. He trusted, tion, and the rate of duty charged ou each article, with
therefore, the vote would pass without further discussion. the Gazette average price of Sugar for the year ending
The vote was then agreed to. on the sth day of January, 1848; also, the number of
71.3301. was next voted for the • wages of artificers in ,hips distinguishing British and foreign, with their ton-
the United Kingdom and the colonies, '
page, that have entered and cleared for the British West
163,418/. was next voted for ordnance land and sea India colonies from the United Kingdom, during the
stores.
same period. Similar returns for the East India
Colonel ANSON, in reply to Mr. Hume, intimated Company's territories and Ceylon ; similar return
that there was every probability of the quantity being for China; similar return for the Mauritius;
reduced.
J. GRAHAM bad already said that the report similar return for the British North American co-
Sirlonies; similar return for New South Wales and the
required much time for consi&ration byotrhdenaGn Govern- Australian Colonies; similar return for the United
went. The cash account of the na
States of America; similar return for Cuba; similar
army was very satisfactory; hut he navalvy and ordnancede) return Mexico
for the Braz:ls ; and similar returns for
Also.. extc
returnso and the other ports of
store-books were most improperly kept.—(Hear,)
The Committee had reported that this subject should beSouth America.
early attended to. He hoped, looking at the cost of these approved of by the H
of ports or creeks in the United Kingdom
inonbo,unirda
of tea,
the -ism' of Customs,
Honourable B
for the warehousing
stores, that next session they would find an alteration
tea, coffee, sugar, wipes,
in these things ; and he trusted the Chancellor of the spirits, and tobacco. Of the amount of the above-
Exchequer,
who was conversant with the mode of mentioned goods in pounds gallons warehoused at
accounts, would attend each port, for the year
keeping the Admiralty
to it. He had intended, when connected with April, 1849, distinguishing the quantities of
ding the sth day of
years ago, to make the thosewarehoused directly imported into such ports, with
the Admiralty flfteen
but circumstances pre- the quantities removed under bond from the ports of im-
alterations he now proposed.
vented his doing so ; but at the present time the books portation, together with the number of duty-paid entries
'ere, in the same unsatisfactory state. made at each port during the above period; and of the
,114.t3 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said . amount of custom' duty received is the United Kingdom

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN T.

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