The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-13 00:00:00

the 811, weificit trotible the Notice fi4
He thought the dietary ought to be entirely under the eoi-itrel
8f the Guardians—( Hear, hear)—and that the Commiisioners
ilsetild not interkire. 4Oriie deeided illteration must also take
bla"isol' ]Hear., In tbrne placei
no relief was given unless a person went into the house, and
this was very inconvenient in many vine of urgent necessity.
Ditrinc: the lose frnst a great porti9n of the laboluing population
in Rent was throWn out of Mid 1151 tit* their
Bwit labour to stibsist on, and it was therefore impossible thtfi
&Mid do Wittiout il relief ; and under such circum-
stances he deemed it a hard ease id cOrtipiil ftotteN lab?urere
to sell their goods to go into the workhouse. —( Hear, nesi.e?
He did think it was hard, indeed, to compel every man to go
i:itti the workhoote, especially, for instance, in the case of an
industrious than siho vrdS ti,rtip;Srdrily rediteed not by any mis-
ctuidttet of his, but troth the that Of tilt ifeathef, Of
some casual circumstance. It might be said that such
a roan might have a loam but it was out of the question to
offer a poor man with perhaps ton childeeit a loan because at
lid time could he make more by his lahouf thin !would be Pit
sufficient to support himself and his family. (hear, hear.)
He (the Noble Earl) considered that the Guardians ought
to have a discretion as to the diet, and that they ought to
have the power of giving out-door relief.
Lord R ADNOR could not agree to either of the pro-
positions of the Noble Earl. The question of out-door
relief was not before the House upon the present pe-
tition, but the dietary was —( Hear, hear, hear.) The
object had been to have a uniform dietary by every Board of
Guardians, but if the dietary was to be left to the discretion of
each Board, why then uniformity would be impossible. It was
to be observed that it was not the paupers who complained of
the dietary—they were satisfied with it, but it was the Guar-
el,ans, in a speculative mood, who thought proper to complain
of it, and who wished to have the law altered in this respect.
'He (the Earl of Radnor) had been able to procure a state-
ment of the ordinary diet of labourers out of the workhouse,
and to contrast that with the workhouse diet. Now, he found
that a family out of the workhouse subsisted on 111 ounces
during the same period in which by the workhouse diet they
would receive 137 ounces. He knew also of another case in
which there had been a difference in favour of the workhouse
diet of 311 b. llioc of solid food. But the parties who com-
plained were not paupers ; no complaints came from them.
The guardians were the persons complaining ; and they, with
others, seemed to imagine that the commissioners had agreed
to discover the smallest possible, quantity of food that would
keep the body and soul together, and had fixed upon that as
their guide in framing the diet tables. (" Hear, hear,"
from Earl Stanhope.) That seemed to be the under-
standing of the Noble Earl opposite, but if it were
so that was not the fact. The Commissioners framed
the diet tables in this manner—they took as example
three or four of the workhouses existing under the old
system—which had been generally considered to be
under the best management, and in which the health
of the inhabitants was most successfully kept up—and
from thnm they copied their different systems of diet, which
they sent to the various unions, leaving the Guardians to se-
lect from these three or four that system which they might
prefer.—( Hear.) All their diet tables, therefore, were sanc-
tioned by experience—( Hoar)—and this very diet table at
Dudley had been adopted by the Assistant Poor Law Com-
missioner who regulated the unions in that part of the country
from the neighbouring workhouse of Sodgeley, with this ex-
ception—that ho added a little to the quantity of meat.—
( Hear, hear.) That being the state of the case, lie must say
that the complaints of the Right Rev. Prelate and of the pc-
tioners were most unfounded. Captain Parry and his crew
at the North Pole consumed less solid food by forty ounces
per day than the workhouse dietary prescribed.
The Marquis of SALISBURY. must say at once that
whenever he could make out a satisfactory case for any restora-
tion of any rules or regulations, he had ever found on the
part of the Commissioners the greatest disposition and anxiety
to soften down all the asperities necessarily incident to a mea-
sure of this nature—( Hear, hear)—and to meet as far as
they could, any emergency that might be found to exist. He
had ever been, and was still, of opinion that it was infinitely
better to leave the power of relaxation in the hands of a
Board which was responsible to the country.—( Hear. )
The Earl of WINCHILSE A thought that without any
application to the Board of Commissioners the Guardians
ought to have the power to grant outdoor relief. And why ?
Because the Commissioners must be constantly occupied, and
there must be considerable delay before a case could be sub-
mitted to them in its turn. In cases of urgent necessity he
thought that the Guardians should have the power of relaxae
tion without application to the Board.
Earl STANHOPE said that if the Noble Lord opposite
meant that it was their duty to make no exaggerated state-
ments of the case, he agreed with him ; but if he meant that
they ought carefully to choose the mildest and most gentle
phrases in speaking of that system of flagrant injustice and
intolerable oppression which had been yet inflicted on
any country on the face of the earth, anal at the very
mention of which their ancestors would burn with horror
and indignation in their graves, then he differed entirely from
his Noble Friend. The Act of Parliament stated that any
regulations which applied to more than ono Union, should be
considered general, and must be submitted to the Govern-
ment; but that provision the Board of Commissioners had
evaded by all their regulations, peculiar and distinct. He
considered these new workhouses as prisons of the worst de-
scription ; and the Noble Earl opposite, who considered 114
opinions unfounded, seemed to know nothing of the Bridge•
water Union, and ho certainly could not have read the mass
of evidence given by Mr. John Bowen, which proved com-
pletely to the satisfaction of every fair and reasonable mind,
that persons had actually perished from disease produced by
the quantity of gruel administered. The Noble Earl had
triumphantly adduced the case of Captain Parry and his crew
at the North Pole ; but the cases where wholly different. The
Noble Earl had said that the paupers made no complaints.
Why was that ? Were they not in such a state of thraldom
and subjection that they felt that certain punishment would
follow upon their making any complaint ? His complaint was
that these poor persons, convicted of no offence—not even
charged with any—should be condemned to worse and more
scanty diet than those who were guilty of criminal offences—a
doom the Guardians,who wore the mere tools and instruments of
the three Commissioners in London, had no power to mitigate.
The Duke of RICHMOND observed that the Noble Earl
had said that the paupers were not permitted to make com-
plaints, because if they did they would certainly be punished.
Did the Noble Lord know of anything of the kind ? Had he
visited any of the workhouses in this country ? The Noble
Earl must excuse him for saying, without meaning to give any
personal offence, that he had cast a gross libel on the great
body of the Guardians of this country when he said that they
would do anything so unconstitutional and Hear. )
Did the Noble Lord know who the Guardians were ?—( Hear,
hear.) They were persons elected by a majority of their
fellow-parishioners—persons, many of whom had formerly
been the overseers, belonging to the middle class of society—
these were the persons whom the Noble Earl charged with
punishing the paupers because they complained. But if they
wished to punish them could they do so ? The complaint was
made before the whole Board ; all listened to the complaint,
which was then fairly investigated. That was the result of
his experience. He would ask the Noble Earl, and he would
appeal also to those with whom the Noble Earl was connected,
who were travelling about the country and distributing hand-
bills, calling on the labouring population of this country not
to obey this law—he would appeal to those agents and travel-
lers, and ask whether they knew of one single instance in
which any person making a complaint had on that account
! been even rigorously treated The observations which the
Noble Earl had made only proved that he had never acted as
a Guardian.
The Earl of BRE CK NO C K said a few words which were
completely inaudible.
Earl STANHOPE certainly had not attended at any meet-
ings of Guardians. Heaven forbid he should. Dissapproving
utterly of the authority of the authority of the Commissioners,
he would be no party to any proceedings taking place under
that authority. In his own neighbourhood one of the most in-
telligent and humane Guardians of that Union had been so
disgusted with the conduct of the rest of the Board, that he
bad refused any longer to act. And ho was aware of the case
of a person, who was perishing from disease, as he was in-
formed by an eminent physician, produced by cold and hunger.
Ile had the happiness and honour, for he considered it to be
both, to be in frequent, almost in daily communication with a
great number of persons who were actively engaged—zealously
and patriotically engaged—in resisting and opposing—but by
legal and constitutional means—that most diabolical measure.
He denied—for had there been such a publication he must
have known of it—he denied that any such publication as that
alluded to had been issued; and at least none such had come
to his knowledge.

The Bishop of EXETER said the Noble Lord (Radnor)
had thought fit to say, who would have made such a statement
that this complaint was grossly unfounded, both on the part of
the petitioners and the Right Rev. Prelate who presented it.
What had the petitioners done ? They had adopted the Lon-
don system of diet in place of one ordered by the Commis-
sioners, which they deemed insufficient. Could any one of
common sense say 141 b. of bread, less than alb. of cheese,
and one pint of gruel, was sufficient to sustain in a state of
robust health persons whose occupation was to work at the
forge ? The Noble Earl had also said that no complaint came
from the paupers. The reason was then obvious; the diet
tables complained of were actually not now used in the work-
houses; the Guardians had is this instance taken into their
own hands the redress of th• evil, and had adopted the diet
table sanctioned by the Commissioners themselves fur the
London Union. It was said, too, that the Commissioners
too': these tables from the neighbouring workhOuse at Sedgely
under the old system. He would now beg to state to their
Lordships how it happened that that petition had been placed
in his hands, He had the honour to be a trustee of the greatest
property in that neighbourhood—the property on which those
industrious workmen were employed ; and it was to him a great
source of pride and gratification that they had such confidence
in him, as to request him to bring forward this complaint of
those honourable men, who, actuated only by motives of mere
humanity, had enabled those paupers to resist that tyranny.
From his practical experience of the diet of coal-miners in the
north of England—and he presumed the labour of those mines
was not greater than of those at Dudley—he would say that
nothing could enable a man to go through the labour of that
occupation, except living on a very generous diet of the best
meat which the markets procbteed.--( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from the Earl of RADNOR,
The Bishop of EXETER moved for copies of any corre-
spondence which might have taken place between the Poor-
law Commissioners and the Guardians of the poor of the
Dudley Union respecting the diet of able-bodied paupers, and
also for copies of any correspondence between the Guardians
of the Dudley Union and the Guardians of the City of Lon-
don Union or the officer of any parish respecting the diet of
able.bodied labourers within that union.—Ordered.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from