The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-31 00:00:00

and raise such a dame in the nation as will defy the whole
force of Government to subdue it. If he had done so, he
would have done no more than the Noble Lord had done
ou the other side, and yet Le would have been told that
be was threatening Parliament with physical force from
without to direct its proceedings, and it would not have been
considered sufficient excuse for him to say, that he il:d
not mean to recommend the u%e of physical force, or a
lawless resistance to the Legislature.—(Lord Farnham—
No, no.) He was glad, then, to hear that the Noble
Lord did not mean what his words certainly might imply.
But he had really understood that the Noble Lord meant
to say that all Ireland would rise against the Government,
and laugh at any efforts to repress a brave and united
people. But there was no bravery in laughing (Lor
Farnham—l spoke of resistance in the House of Com-
mons.) He was glad of it. He really thought that the
Noble Lord had spoken of a lawless resistance on the pat t
of the people, and was glad that he was mistaken.
Lord FARNHAM, in explanation, denied having said
anything like it. He hail never said that there would be
a lawless resistance to a legislative measure. What he
had said was, that this measure would probably lead to a
prostration of the Protestant institutions in Ireland, and
that would probably lead to the union of all parties and
all classes in the call for a repeal of the Union between
the two count' ies, and that it would he impossible to re-
sist their united voice.

tutiun never intended it. There was gnat excitement in
Ireland, occasioned by the propoed measure—excitement
which, he agreed with his Noble Friend on the cross •
bench, was owing to those who had always said to a cer-
tain class in Ireland—agitate, agitate, agitate. If such
language had not been used, he verily believed that at the
present moment the danger accruing from the discussion
of the measure would have been greatly diminished.—
Having stated his determination to oppose the Bill, he
begged to state thathis opposition was to the Bill as itstood.
Lord GODERICII heard the observations of the Noble
Duke oppo‘ite with some surpriae, but not without satis-
faction, for he felt assured, that eventually the measure
Would have the benefit of his support, and that, notwith-
standing his present declarations to the contrary. The
Noble Duke must have very imperfectly heard the Noble
Friends by whom he was surrounded, if he slid net collect
from their observations, that those were to be found who
would contend strenuously that rotten boroughs were a
great advantage, and contributed mainly to the indepen-
dence of the other branch of the Legislature. It was
stoutly maintained that those boroughs were essential to the
Constitution, and were peculiarly important, as supplying
the means of representation to particular interests that
could not otherwise find a voice in the House of Commons
—those' Noble Lords forgetting all the while that they were
denounced by a positive law. He remembered perfectly
well, when the system was brought under the consideratio❑
of the other House of Parliament, that a very ingenious
able, and eloquent Member of that House (he meant Mr.
Windham,) vindicated the practice in a manner the most
unqualified and uncompromising. The practice was then
and new as evident and notorious as the sun at noon-day,
and it was treated by Mr. Windham as incident to the
posse,sion of those boroughs. A Right Hon. Gentleman
then holding the highest situation in that House—that of
Speaker-.-end substaluently rit;eed to the Peerage, de-
nounced the sale of those boroughs as a practice from
which our ancestors would have started back with indig-
nation; that remark was at the time treated as a figure
of speech—waa spoken of as a clap-trap—it was denied
that the Right Hon. Gentleman spoke his sentitnents—
whether or nut they were his sentiments, he at least spoke
the language of the Constitutiou, and he said what was
congenial to those principles upon which the House of
Commons was founded. There was no man acquainted
with the history of Parliament who did not know
that the practice of buying and selling seats in that
assembly was a matter of recent introduction, un-
known till within the last century, but now it was
made o atter of boast, and now no man could go into
hich hot

Earl GREY--If ever he heard a speech which bad
the pernicious tendency to produce the mischievous effects
which the Noble Lord himself deprecated, it was the
speech of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord, however,
was glad to mix some water with his wine. If his
(Earl Grey's) ears did not deceive him, and if his recol-
lection was not imperfect, he understood the Noble Lord
distinctly to state, that the effect of this measure would
he, that the Protestants would consider themselves as de-
serted by that proceeding, and the consequence of that
would be a dissolution of the Union—(Lord Farnham
nodded assent). The Noble Lord assented to that. WI)),
then he would ask the Noble Lord how he was a friend
to the Union ? Could he hold out to the Catholics, who,
as he said, were discontented, that they would be joined
by the Protestants in a call for a repeal of the Union ?
Why did he say of the Protestants that they would con-
sider themselves deserted by hie measure, and that they
• would join the Catholics and force the repeal against all
the efforts of Government ? No doubt the Noble Lord was
a friend to the Union ; but this he would say, that if an
enemy to the Union, whose object was its dissolution, had
studied what language be could employ the best calcu-
lated to promote his object, he could not use terms
more likely to irritate and inflame, and more adapted
to effect his purpose than the language used by the
Noble Lord. He felt perfectly satisfied that when the
measure of Parliamentary Reform, now under the
consideration of the other House, came to be clearly
understood, and deliberately estimated by the Irish Pro-
testants, they would feel that it was in no respect op.
posed to their true interests. In the North of Ireland,
where the Protestant interest was most firmly established,
and included a larger proportion of the population of that
part of the country, the Bill, so far from being regarded
with jealousy, was hailed with the highest satisfaction,
they had cheerfully announced their intention from
various parts to promote the measure most cordially. He
altogether that it could conduce to the end of dim,
solving the union between the two countries, or that it,
e degree the affections of the people
'!r... British connectiol
• -
tf:lvro.ftlC t 14:k‘ !7f.'
4;11...Ate.

society without hearing the prices for wi irouglis
were bought and sold. The new Bill denounced the
--- to th, the rights and the

Adj,,urned at a Quarter past Seven o'clock.

HOUSE OP COMMONS, MARCH 30.

The Srrax Ea took the Chair at Three o'clock.
Mr. BAYNTUN presented a petition from the city of
York, in favour of the Alinisterial plan of Reform.
Mr. D. BROWN presented petitions from Galway and
three places in the province of Connaught, in favour of
the plan of Reform. After a few observations front the
lion. Member in support of the prayer of the petition,
General GASCOYNE faid, that if the Bill introduced
by the Noble Lord did not co to lessen the number of
Members of that House it should have his support, but
if sixty Members were to be cut off he would oppose it in
all its future stages.
The House was here summoned to the House of Lords
to hear the Royal assent given by Commission to several
Bills (for which see the Loids').
On the SYEAKER'S return,

Mr. D. BROWN made a few remarks on the nature
of the petitiens, after which they were ordered to be
printed.
Mr. RUTHVEN presented a petition front the county'
of Devon, in favour of Parliamentary Reform.
After a few observstions from Mr. Btinsos GURNEY,
the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. RUTIIVEN then pre,eated a petition from Ban
bridge, in the county of Down, in favour of Reform, and
praying for the vote by ballot, for an abolition of tithes,
and JOT. a shorter duration of Parliaments.

Mr. LEADER presented u petition from the City of
Kilkenny, in favour of the plan of Reform.
The lloN. 1111{MIIKE, then presented a similar petition
from Queen's County, and several others, fur a repeal of
the Union.

General GASCOYNE said, as there were a great many
petitions for and against the Ministerial measure of Parlia-
mentary Reform, it would be ♦ery desirable that an early
day after the recess should he appointed for receiving them.
Lord ALTHORP undertook that a day would be set
apart for that 1 urpose.
Mr. 'NYSE said, that however anxious he was
to bring the subject before tie House, he should
he ready to postpone his motion on the state of the
i4h poor, which was fixed for the day after the recess, in
order to afford an opportunity for presenting the petitions.

county, in the room of Sir Henry Parnell, who had se-
cepted the office of Secretary at War.—(Load cheers.)
SALARIES OF PUBLIC OFFICERS.
On the motion of Mr. BARING, the report of sala-
ries was brought up.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that the report contained
matter not strictly in connection with the subject which
was referred to the Committee, but which, involving
a constitutional question of great importance, he should
call the particular attention of the House to it, in order
that before any law was introduced on the subject
it might be fully and fairly considered. The Committee
from which that report had proceeded was appointed for
the purpose of enquiring into what reductions could
be made in the salaries and emoluments of offices bed
during the pleasure of the Crown by Ministers of either
''House of Parliament. They had, however, referred to the
superannuations and retiring salaries in a manner which
involved an evasion of the Constitution, and was most detri-
mental to the interests of the Monarchy. That Committee
stated to the House that it was expedient to repeal
the Act which enabled his Majesty to recompense the
services of persons holding certain high and civil
offices. They recommended a repeal of that Act
which gave to his Majesty, the fountain of honour,
the right of renumerating and rewarding public servants,
and proposed a transfer of it to that House.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BARING would support the principle of the
Committee's report. The Act of Parliament, the
repeal of which they recommended, gave power to
the Crown to grant certain pensions to persons
after holding office for two years; and while they
admitted that that Act had not hitherto been
abused, they did not, he considered, at all trench
on the prerogative of time Crown, when they recom-
mended that any pension thereafter to be granted whilst
originating with the Crown should have, like all other
grants of money, the sanction and approbation of that
House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goulburn) seemed
to think that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) stood
pledged to every recommendation of the Committee. Now
he must set him right in this respect. Ail that he said
he should consider himself bound to support was, any re-
commerplation they might make as to the reduction of
the salaries of the Ministers of State. He could not
pledge himself to any other parts of the recommendation
of the Committee, fur he was not yet even acquain ed with
them.
Sir H. HARDINGE protested against what be coital,

dered an invidious distinction made between officers of the
army and the navy in favour of the latter. The distinc-

practice as contrary -le usages, . .ights,
- tion consisted in thin that while officers of the army
freedom of Parliament ; and, after the passing of such a
were deprived of their half-pay if appointed to a civil
measure, it could no longer be maintained as a part of the
situatien, an exception in that respect was made in favour
Constitution. The evil was indisputable, but he confessed
of officers of the navy. Now this was an unfair distinction
he saw no remedy for it hut that total excision which the
between two services which were equal.
Bill proposed to effect. Here the conversation (hopped.
Mr. KENNEDY said, that what had fallen from the
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY, for the put pose Right lion. and Gallant Officer, showed the inconve-
of removing a misapprehension that had gone abroad,
nience of entering into a discussion of the report of a
would put a question to the Noble and Learned Lord upon
Committee which had not yet been wade to the House. As
the Woolsack, respecting the days of meeting of that a rnetnte.r of the Committee, he must say it made no such
House. He understood them to he Saturday and Monday,
distinction between the naval and military service. All it
hut *time persons had been led to believe that it was the did was this—it found that the salaries of the naval
intention of the Houseto meet on Good Friday. He hoped
Lords of the Admiralty were too email, and us it was not
the Noble and Learned Lord would have the goodness to quite within its province to recommend an addition
twlaia to any salaries it recommended that those naval Lords
TheeLORD 4-V01.014.0R taltinuch obliged to the should be made an exception to the general rule,
de.t.tit Mite' fthrlaireid.hkg'lhins tiL opportunity and be alloweei to ..et tin their half-pay aloe-, wi with the
.--`-i-eertaietly -..Asaposeet'Satairday. and salary of the office, thus raising the office to that amount
I's•site-"--:..acir the purpose of of remuneration to which it was entitled.
else sitting within the
.Sir H.-HARDINGE must still hold the opinion that
'we-etre-of the Court' the C. ..tinction was an unfair one to officers of the art y.
. I '',..bettrs" after Sir 0,-- WARRENDER took the same view of the caees
-,,,..,
as the Hon. Memher opposite (Mr. Kennedy.).
• 1-41 q ce,"nurts e.at
•-itrl Cot on the sir G. IIUPRAY concurred with his Right Hon.
?e''''t - . Friend (Sir H. Hardinge) that en unfair distinction wax:
af 5. '-em thet,;,..a., 7,,',,t;tten the two service:,i No one wished new-
-•';‘444lteerett)ovaa 1 et,i,e de e: to advance the ibterests of the navy, 'el.ttese
cutte is to aen''S4-1,04 ' nt services to the country he bad bad so many op-
° e ~ . i ea-c
,tfe 4caoliable la Mat' -, unities of wiceeesing in his, own profeseionel experi-
••ni( • f. -;.,,,!-...it .wei; hut he thoeght abet even. the uffirc.r3 of that serv:,...
e.contralatele.l. . eselsttbenteeletee not iike.to see such a distinction made,
. ,1 stkte. ''''' .-.
ii in their own favour. The Right Hon. and Gal-
. 1 7 !"14 .., ill 089..cer then went on to contend thet to deprive a 1,.;
j ettcee
.
r, nsvai or military, of his pay, on his receiving a
„. 'fIFT•I civil appointment, was earremely unjust. Their pay was
I . 1,4 t;t'-' "I,.:etise reward of years of hard toil in the public service.- and
k-titeip,aviL4c.rf.really thought it very hard it a naval nor niety officer
eyte,rnatligl'...teert: considered fit to hold a tivil appo:ntment, he should
c} at at the lame moment be mulcted of the reward of ;tethers
• ..t.__e,'N''' ; -30:.0r 40'years of hard service. (Hear, hear.) He. had
rnig-t°'' had many opportunities of eppointing, when Colonial ..
A
in the army and c,-vir ezeeary, many ate ..:es rt.,. .
4••:a:sabrti' 4
se
'iaituttions in the colonies, for which they were extremely
,'.-1 tan!iii9iny . well qualified, but lie was prevented, because those parties
:.4 II that the did net wish to give up their half-pay. Put ',big was ni
4-eTtsclW-7-- economy to the country, for other poreons were appointee
...' had x*lriehr,e to till those places, at higher salaries dial wou:d hose
ca. the son-i4++,l been necessary in the cans of officers. .
~.. ,
44t. he had "c'"""
le , . Mr. 12. GORDON regretted that it *bottle! go abroad
btitigpetl'ller.l,
on the statement of the Right Hon. and. Gallant Officer,
F:
,at slitlaitee w,uhl Alegi inch distinctione should lie made between the two
. w „alloed to say that services, The Committee meant to make no such distinc-
e-tat eatreedile
All tlety meant was, to make this exception in
. •
le". Piiht4 gli fL `erelvii.lsoAtitit tthoe
tl-i.lei•gil:...t tell.
• favour of naval Lords of the Admiralty.
aumat a,. It.! be sil-f his health, tie-
Sir C. WETHERELL said, that withnnt discussing
,Iliad only tra say that ite-a,..* . , ef.teyonl the lirngth of •
why those sinecure places should have existed, the question
ittpresitiag it cfinsbr as to
,whethlrOtee.tgail nor in a stete. o,f was bad a cbeerspeet beers made by which it was agreed that
4tni gkeat weak:nee La admisiget.* lrealetjone ef hie high it the Crown geese up certain tiineeure places in ito gift; it
'l and have the rightorgranting pensions to retired public
! The Arehbishop of CANTIV--PaYI believed the
officers, under certain circumstances and to a limited ex-
wbult arnstrleut :if a mistake. ',see.
• tent ? If that contract bad been made, the recotnitienda.
• Earl .(IRkY pratteatted a lietitioii 'from_ Aylesbury, tioa of the Committee, if a:looted, would be a violation of
agreedteo,laiiinientop a.,•11 y pu ,_ weeem.,,,e where the it;• for it would take to itself, and front the Crown, that
I Vieteri-rieei:led ; it was in favour of t4O, 31:aisterial plan whitli bad been given to it untie- a solemn act of.the legie
1...5.r Reform. • lattice. He teas glad, therefore, that the Right Hon.
. . ... -
The sante Noeseß EARL preeeeted similar petitions. Gentleman had called the attention of the House to this,
from Limerick, Waterford, Olden, Dover, Newcastle- tel ich he must consider, am:. monereliical measure. cod,
open-lyne, and two other places. like other measures going through the House, was striking
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition at tie power of the Monarchy.—(Hear.)
from Calcutta against the system of local taxation in use o eir.
I-10131101-SE, as a Aleinlier of the Committee,
there—from two parishes in Ireland, praying that the must say, that what it had recommended had not been
measure of Reform be extended to that eountry--and very candidly represented to the House by the Right lion.
from Dundalk, for a repeal of the Union. Member for Armagh (Mr. Goulhurn). The Right Hon.
The Earl of GLASGOW presented a petition, in fa- Gentleman—he would tint say intentionally—had given a
signed by all false notion of what the Committee had reeominended, in your of Reform, from a parish in Somerset,
the inhabitants but two. saying that they were trenching upon the prerogative of
-

the Crown. It was also not a quite correct representation
to state that an invidious distinction was made between the
officers of she army and navy. The exception to the ge-
Dual principle was made on'y, as had been said, iu respect
of the navel Lords of the Admiralty. He thought it very
unfair to this Committee, that before its report was be.
fore the House, it should be made the subject of animad-
version, and have bard names applied to it. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (sir C. Wetherell) had referred
to history upon this subject ; but if he !made no better use
of history, it would be no great loss if all history were
burned.

Lord STOIINIONT deprecated such imputations of
want of candour and fairness in the representations of Hon.
Members as had been made by the Hon. Member for
NVetminster. 'He was not surprised at his wishing to have
all history burnt, for then he would hive only theory to
go by.—(llear, hear.) He would be unfettered by any
practice or experience.
After a few words from Lord Morpeth, Mr. Hume, Sir
C. Wetherell, and Sir H. Ilardinge, the report was ordered
to lie on the table.