The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-31 00:00:00

than before."—(Hear, hear.) Now, what has been the in-
fluence of the successive failures of the potato that have
taken place, combined with the operation of the poor-law,
upon the landed property of Ireland? All the encum-
brances existing in 1844 have been aggravated by the ina-
bility to pay rent, and also by the imposition of poor-rate
(Hear, hear.) The account of the condition of landed pro-
perty in 1844, which I have read to you, would but faintly
depict the condition of that property at the present moment.
Estates have sunk still more deeply under encumbrances
caused by the arrears of rent charges, and also by the arrears
of sums due for the support of the poor. What is the pre-
sent condition of a great part of Ireland? Of the 21 unions
so often referred to in this debate ten are hovering between
the necessity for demanding relief and relying upon their
own exertions. These 21 unions, comprising an immense
district and a great population, are in the financial condition
which I shall presently describe ; in 18 of the 21 you have
been obliged to supersede the local exertions of the gentry,
and their affairs you are now administering, not by
the natural local functionaries interrsted in imposing the
rate and in checking excess, but by vice-guardians, who, I
believe, are discharging their duties most zealously and most
faithfully.—(Hear, hear.) In the whole 21 unions the ex-
penditure for the year ending the 29th of September, 1848,
was 468,101/. ; the net amount of debt on that day not pro-
vided fur was 123,995/. ; there being, therefore, for that year,
including the expenditure and the outstanding debts, a sum
of 592,0001. for the relief of the poor. How was that expen-
diture met? Was it possible to meet it by their own unaided
efforts? I believe it was not; and you wisely met it—what-
ever might be the objection to such a course in principle—
rather than suffer any portion of the Queen's subjects to
starve, by an advance, partly from private benevolence, and,
when that was exhausted, from the public Treasury.—(Hear,
heir.) The rate collected was only 199,0001. The amount
supplied by the British Association and by the Treasury was
256,8001. The funds of the British Association are, I appre-
hend, expended. You have not now that source to rely upon.
It must be made up by extrinsic aid, and the Treasury is the
only source from which that aid can come.—(Hear, hear,)
That is the general condition of the 21 unions; but I shall
refer to the state of one or two of them in detail. Take the
Castlebar Union. The population of this union is 61,000, and
the maximum of persons who received relief in 1847 was
46,600. Here is an account of the condition of that union :
" Succesive years of famine have told fearfully on the cir-
cumstances of all classes. Amongst the highest rated im-
mediate lessors are the names of no less than nine proprietors
whose estates are under the supervision of the Court of
Chancery, and managed by receivers. The encumbrances
and improvidence, perhaps, of former years, accumulating
upon the difficulties of the last three seasons, appear to have
rendered extrication hopeless in these cases."
Take next the Clifden union. That union presents the ex-
traordinary fact that whilst the net annual value of the land
is 19,986/., there has been land thrown up to the landlords to
the net value of 9,4491 (Hear, hear) and occupiers, with-
out any means whatever, to the net value of 1,6731.; the
total value being no less than 11,121/ a year; thus three-
fifths of the whole net value of the union were thrown up in
consequence of inability to meet the demands for poor-rate,
and of unwillingness to incur fresh charges.—(Hear, hear.)
A memorial to her Majesty has recently been presented from
the grand jury of the county of Cork, in which it is said :
" The grand jury should not conceal from the Govern-
ment their solemn conviction that the county is not able to
pay this money; that this inability is attested by the fact
that there are in this county thousands of acres of land
thrown out of cultivation, and wholly waste at this moment ;
that two of their baronial rate-collectors threw up their
appointments at last assizes, and that one barony of these,
containing 89,986 acres, is without a collector from that
time to the present, it being impossible to get any one to
undertake the collection, the entire barony being alleged to
be waste."
Now what are our prospects?—(Cheers.) Observe what is
the altered condition of insolvent landed property with re-
ference to solvent property since the passing of the poor-
law.—(Hear, hear.) Previous to the passing of the poor-
law each property, whether solvent or insolvent, stood alone.
The insolvent property, neglected by the tenants' inability to
pay rent, and under general mismanagement, did not im-
mediately affect the solvent estates in their neighbourhood.
It did in its consequences visit them indirectly, for no doubt
there was felt to some extent the contagion of mismanage-
ment and misfortune ; but no immediate direct prejudice was
sustained. Now, however, under the poor-law the solvent
estate becomes responsible for the insolvency of the insol-
vent estate.—(Hear, hear.) I am speaking to Englishmen
who are not so familiar with the details of this question as
the Irish gentlemen, to whom I am obliged for the patience
with which they listen to my statements; but I ask those
who are connected with this part of the empire what are we
to do ?—( Hear, hear.) Is it true, that in one barony they
are unable to appoint a collector because the lands are waste ?
Is it true that of land to the annual value of 19,9861. in one
union, an amount to the extent of 11,0001. has been thrown
up, and that nine large properties are in the condition which
I have described to you, on the authority of Mr. Guinness?
—(Hear, hear.) Why, if these statements are true, the in-
solvency will go on extending till all the solvent estates are
merged in one common ruin.—(Hear, hear.) Then what is
the position of the poor?—(Hear, hear.) Every acre of
land thrown out of cultivation is aggravating the evil, is
diminishing the means of future subsistence.—(Hear,
hear.) What will be the position of that barony, with
80,000 acres lying waste ?—(Hear.) Do not let us fancy there
is hope in a good potato harvest.—(hear, hear.) You may
have a fruitful potato harvest in 1849. If you have there
will be foolish reliance placed on it, and the spring of 1850
will exhibit a most determined effort to perpetuate the cul-
tivation of that root.—(Hear, hear.) Every expense that
can be spared will be avoided for the purpose of collecting
seed and providing subsistence from the potato for 1851.
In this way you may go on for a time; but after the warn-
ings we have had for four successive years, can we have any
reliance that the potato will afford even a temporary relief?
—(Hear, hear.) My belief is that it will only perpetuate
the vicious system so long followed.—(Hear, hear.) I t may
possibly for a time diminish the demands of the Treasury,
but I doubt if anything but evil will be the result of a pros-
perous potato harvest in 1849. The truth is, we are now
deliberating and acting on one of the most extraordinary
crises in the history of the world, and it is absolutely neces-
eery to consider—indeed we shall be forced to consider—what
is to be done in such circumstances, unless w e are resolved
to make up our minds to travel over again this vicious circle
in which we have so long moved—unless we are pre•
pared to trust to the potato harvest instead of endeavouring
to bring about the gradual introduetion of cereal crops
among the farmers of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) You are
now feeding about 100,000 people in Ireland—l know not
the exact number—but you aro enabled to feed them, because
you have removed every impediment to the introduction of
food.—(Cheers.) If that law, which in 1846 1 was enabled
to repeal, the law of 1842, had been now in operation, there
would have been a duty of 10s. a quarter on the intro-
duction of Indian meal ; but that Indian meal is the substi-
tute for the potato by which you are now enabled to keep
body and soul together—(Hear, hear)—and you are enabled
to keep body and soul together at an expense to the Impe-
rial Treasury of ld; a day for each man. [The CHANCEL-
Loft of the ExcKEQUEa—" Hardly so much."] The great
problem you have to solve is, by what means wilt you provide
for the substitution of a higher and more certain description
of food than the potato you have hitherto relied upon?
—( Hear, hear.) I believe that few tempted by the pecuniary
saving will be inclined to take the chance of the potato
again; but you must do much during the interval that must
elapse before cereal substitutes can be introduced.—(Hear.)
That will be a long interval. The acre of land that will
produce potatoes to support a certain number of persons
will not support half the number if sown with grain.
Greater care will Le required for grain in the cultivation of
the land, exhausted by potato culture, and in its present
state unfit for the cultivation of cereal crops.—(Hear, hear.)
This is a matter of calculation. If you are to substi-
tute a cereal crop for the potato, no person holding a farm
under five acres can support his family.—(Hear, hear.) There
are estates where there are 180 tenants occupying land of
not more than five acres. They have grown corn enough to
pay the rent, and lived upon the potato'; but they cannot
do that any more. ( Hear, hear.) If yeu encourage them
to grow corn instead of potatoes they will not be able to
support their families. In the meantime you must keep
these 180 families; and already, no doubt, many of them
are finding their way to the United States. Seeing, then,
that a long time must elapse before cereal crops can be
raised, during which something must be done for these far-
mers, is there, I would ask, no alternative for Great Britain ?
Has she no alternative but to bear her portion of the
burden? Now, if Ireland comes forward, in the spirit
of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) to-night, and
manifests a disposition to bear her full share of the
burden—nay, if she will make a great exertion to repayonly
the just debt she owes us on account of the union work-
houses—this will lead England all the more readily to co-
operate with her in adopting some decisive measure for ex-
tricating her from her difficulties.—(Cheers.) But what
course shall we pursue? If I offer any suggestion whatever,
the last thought that will enter my mind will be a wish to
give any embarrassment to the Government in any attempt
they may make to solve the problem before them.—( Hear.)
But I think that something may be done, some course taken
for the purpose of dealing with those distressed unions.—
(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) misunderstood
rile if he thought that I said a mere substitution of one pro-
prietary for another would at once solve the mystery. I
had no such intention. The Hon. Gentleman did not hear
the account I have been giving of the management of
landed property in Ireland. If he had lie would have been
convinced that, whether or no the substitution of a new
proprietary will cure all the evils of Ireland, the condition
of landed property there, especially that placed in the Court
of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer, is such as to
afford conclusive reasoning that even if we were speaking
in a time of prosperity we should be bound to make some
vigorous efforts to relieve the landed proprietors from such
incumbrances as I have spoken of.— (Hear, hear.) I feel as
much convinced as any man that no single measure will be
sufficient for the purpose of redeeming Ireland ;,but it, at the
same time, appears to me that there would be an advantage
in taking some immediate course with regard to the super-
intendence and management of those districts of Ireland
which are most distressed.- As I said before, you have at
present no advantage from local management. You are not
inviting the local functionaries to undertake the duty of su-
perintendence. Eighteen of these unions are already go-
verned by vice-guardians. I suggested, the other evening,
the appointment of a commission for undertaking the general
charge and superintendence of the affairs of those unions.
Subsequent reflection has induced me to think that that is
the best course you can now pursue. I would attempt to
bring the affairs of all these unions under one general con-
trol and superintendence. I would have a commission ap-
pointed by the Government—having the confidence of the
Government—composed of men on whom they can rely—
and deriving their authority from the Government; being
no imperium in imperio, but acting in concert with the Go-
vernment, and whose duty it should be to apply themselves,
without delay, to the condition of those unions. I would
propose that that commission should discharge its duties on
the spot. I believe that there would be the greatest advan-
tage if you could, as I have no doubt you could, prevail on
men of the highest character and the greatest experinfice of
the management of estates in England, who are politically
connected with you, and in whom both you and the country
would have confidence—l believe it would be of the greatest
advantage if you could prevail upon such men to devote
themselves to the consideration and to the discharge of the
duties that would necessarily belong to a department of that
nature. If they went to Limerick and there saw the state
of things with their own eyes, and entered into persona
communication with the parties there—(Hear, hear)—it
would in my opinion be a most advantageous mode of pro-
ceeding. They would judgefor themselves, and not through
the intervention of other agents ; and they would be able to
submit to you measures which I have no doubt would be
well deserving of your consideration. I would advise you to
place under the charge of that Commission all the various
measures which have been suggested fbr the mitigation of
this great calamity. I would contrive to act upon some
combined and concerted system. You have grants of seve-
ral descriptions placed under the control of the Board of
Works. There are grants for the improvement of the land
by draining, and for the execution of public works. It ap•
pears to me that the application of those grants in these dis-
tressed unions should be made upon some system ; that there
ahould be entire concert between the Commission which I
Suggest and the vice-guardians of the Board of Werks. I
do nut mean that the Commission should supersede the
Board of Works, but that the application of the grants to
these different districts should be made with a view to one

great object—namely, the laying of a foundation for a better I
state of things.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
is wrong in supposing that the only measure contemplated
in 1846 was one to import food. In 1546 we proposed, and
her Majesty's Government of that day were enabled to pass
into law a Bill to authorise the advance of public money to
a limited amount to promote the improvement of land in
Great Britain and Ireland by the application of drainage;
and no less a sum than 2,000,0001. was granted for Great
Britain, and 1,000,0001. to Ireland, for that purpose. It
appears to 1110 that this Commission should also take into
consideration the policy of diminishing the pressure of dis-
tress which is now felt by means of emigration. We have
the greatest colonial empire that there is on the face cf the
earth. In several of our colonies there is a great demand
fur labour. In Ireland there is an excess and a superfluity
of labour, which is continually counteracting all your exer-
tions for the mitigation of the present calamity. It appears
to me that by some combined system you might mitigate
this evil by emigration. I place less confidence in the
efficacy of this course than many. I am quite aware of the
enormous expense attending it, and of the necessity of great
caution in the application of such a remedy; but there is
one answer which is constantly made to any proposition of
this kind, and which is thought conclusive, but which I do
not consider to be entitled to all the weight that is generally
given to it. It is said—" Do not depend upon the State in
this matter; consider there is a vast amount of voluntary,
emigration going on, and beware lest, by encouraging emi-
gration on the part of the State, you interfere:with this volun-
tary emigration." I should certainly be unwilling to inter-
fere with such voluntary undertakings, at the expense and
under the direction of those proprietors who may feel an in-
terest in them, and who believe that they are relieving their
estates by engaging in them. But, at the same time, before
we admit that argument of voluntary emigration to be con-
clusive, let us inquire who are the voluntary emigrants.—
(Hear, hear.) Many of them are men who aro taking
capital away—(Hear, hear)—and many of them are men
suffering under the apprehension that the increase of the
poor, and consequently of the poor-rates, will involve them
in the common calamity under which the insolvent unions
are suffering. Now, every man that you lose from Ireland
who takes away more capital than he does paupers whom
that capital would employ, is a dead loss to that country.—
(Hear, hear.) The comfortable farmer, fearing the inva-
sion of this poor-law, and who is possessed of 40/. or 50/.
capital—who sells his tenant-right holding in the north, and
transfers his capital to the United States or to Canada, con-
fers no benefit on Ireland by emigration, but he is withdraw-
ing capital which might be usefully employed in his own
country.—(Hear, hear.) There is another class of volun-
tary emigrants in whose expatriation I think we have no
right to rejoice—they are all that class of helpless paupers
who go out in a state of weakness and disease, the fruit of
starvation at home, and who inflict a positive evil on the
colonies.—(Hear, hear.) I believe you have in many re•
spects remedied some of the great evils attending emigra-
tion. I believe many useful precautions have been adopted
ha respect to the means you have employed to preserve
health and to secure well-built and safe passage-ships; and
more particularly have you done this within the last year.
But I must say that I never read a more painful account of
this voluntary emigration system than that which I find in
a private letter of no later date than the 30th of November,
1847, bearing the signature of Mr. de Vere, and which letter
has been adopted as a public document by the Colonial-
office. This is the account which Mr. de Vere gives of
voluntary emigration of the comparatively destitute, and
in no records of the sufferings on board a slave-ship is
there anything to be found equal to it. He took his
passage in the steerage of an emigrant-ship in order that
he might become acquainted with the condition of the emi-
grants, and he remained on board nearly two months;
and he says—
" Before the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an
altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor
people, men, women, and children, of all, ages, from the
drivelling idiot of 90 to the babe jest born, huddled to-
gether without light, without air, wallowing in filth, and
breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in
heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleep-
ing places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of
indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of
the disease; by their agonised ravings disturbing those
around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the
imagination, to imbibe the contagion ; living without food
or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual
charity, dying without the voice of spiritual consolation,
and buried in the deep, without the rites of the church.
The food is generally ill-selected, and seldom sufficiently
cooked, in consequence of the insufficiency and bad construc-
tion of the cooking places. The supply of water, hardly
enough for cooking and drinking, does not allow washing.
In many ships, the filthy beds, teeming with all abomina-
tions, are never required to be brought on deck and aired ;
the narrow space between the sleeping berths and the piles
of boxes is never washed or scraped, but breathes up a damp
and fetid stench, until the day before arrival at quarantine,
when all hands are required to scrub up,' and put on a
fair face for the doctor and Government inspector. No
moral restraint is attempted, the voice of prayer is never
heard; drunkenness, with its consequent train of ruffianly
debasement, is not discouraged, because it is profitable to the'
captain, who traffics in the grog."
(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") Such are the advantages of
voluntary emigration:—(hear, hear.) Such a system of
emigration is a positive disgrace to this couutry, with its
great colonial empire, and great colonial resources for the
people. Though the removal of such a class of emigrants
may confer an advantage on the proprietors of the estates
from which they are sent, yet I consider those who send out
such persons do the greatest disservice to Ireland, because
on their arrival at the United States, or at Canada, they so
disgust the people of those countries, that they are induced
to throw impediments in the way of emigration and thus
is prevented that sound and healthy emigration which might
otherwise take place. Therefore, from the advantages of
that voluntary emigration which you wish to encourage, after
deducting the removal of those who carry with them capital
more than sufficient to support the persons they take with
them, you must also deduct all those voluntary emigrants
that do nothing but bring disgrace upon your system of
emigration. Without, therefore, entertaining too sanguine ex-
pectations from voluntary emigration, still I cannot but think
that having a superintending local authority acting in concert
with an authority which is able to communicate with the
Government, and personally with the proprietors of estates,
and capable of seeing in what part of the country there is a
congestion of the population—for from those parts your
emigrants ought to be drawn—l cannot, I say, help think-
ing, having such an authority on the spot, acting in con-
cert with the Government, that you might greatly facilitate
voluntary emigration. But there is a great evil arising
from the want of full information on the part of the people
who emigrate.—(Hear, hear.) Just consider a poor man
leaving Ireland, and seeking a new abode 2,000 or 3,000
miles from home—what comfort could we not give him by
imparting to him a little information as to the country to
which he is going, and even by giving him some slight pe-
cuniary aid besides?—(Hear, hear.) Yes, I would not deny
him Government aid.—(Hear, hear.) I think it would be
politic to incur some expense for the purpose of facilitating
emigration, under certain conditions.—(Hear, hear.) You
tell us what has been done in Ireland by the Noble Lord
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and also by the
Marquis of Lansdowne. You tell us that they have reduced
the amount of the poor-rates on their estates by a well-
regulated system of emigration, and that they have thereby
increased a demand for labour, and have restored prosperity
and content among the people on those estates.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") What more do you say? Why,
that they are raising great sums from Ireland for the
purpose of promoting emigration. Well, Lord Palmerston
might be able to do this; and notwithstanding any diffe-
rence of political opinion, I most willingly declare that I
consider the exertion which that Noble Lord has made to
relieve that district from the misery with which it has been
visited do him very great credit.—(Cheers.) But how many
gentlemen there may be in Ireland willing to make the
same exertions, if they had your assistance and
advice, and who would gladly follow the Noble Lord's
course, but that they cannot follow it'.—(Hear, hear.) You
might go on increasing this voluntary emigration, and en-
couraging further remittances from emigrant's in the United
States and Canada to their friends in Ireland. In
addition, therefore, to public works—to the encouragement
of fisheries, of drainage, and the improvement of land, I
think a Commission of the kind I have pointed out might
be the means of improving Ireland by a series of emigra-
tion, and that it ought to be among the first objects to be
adopted. I come now to another point to which I adverted
the other evening, and in regard to which I still entertain a
very strong feeling. In my opinion all these measures will
be ineffectual—all your measures of drainage, of local im-
provement, of increase of fisheries, of emigration—all will
be ineffectual, unless you can cure in some way or other
those monstrous evils which arise out of that condition of
landed property to which I adverted the other night.—
(Loud cheers.) If those estates producing 800,0031., with
arrears annually accumulating, are not to allow more than
2,0004:to be applied to the permanent improvement of the
land—if there are certain principles and forms of equity
sanctioned by the Court of Chancery which throw obstacles
in the way of any improvement in that respect, you may
feel assured that all your other exertions will be ineffec-
tual. I think it would be an inestimable advantage to
every insolvent—and to every nominal owner, and to every
encumbrancer who is receiving nothing—that it would, in
short, be an advantage to everybody- except the receivers
under the Court of Chancery, and the lawyers who are
dividing the sums received from these estates amongst them-
selves—(Cheers and laughter)—if by some process which
should not be inconsistent with the principles of equity and
of fair dealing you could relieve those estates from the con-
trol of the Court of Chancery, and permit them to be pos-
sessed by men of capital who would embark in their cultiva-
tion with new hopes and fresh vigour.—(Cheers.) In my
opinion, you would do more by that Act for the advancement
of Ireland than by any other that can at present be adopted.
I will just contrast with the hopeless condition of some parts
of Ireland—hopeless on account of the extent of those en-
cumbrances—the case of an estate, an account of which I
have before me in a letter which I will read to the House.
It is a letter from a very humble man, giving an account of
what he has done in Ireland, although having no connexions
in that country, and undertaking a settlement in a remot e part
of Ireland, but bringing capital enough for the cultivation of
the land. It is written in a simple style ; but if you will devise
measures to enable persons to follow, safely and securely, the
cultivation of land in Ireland, you may judge what may be
I done from the plain relation contained in this statement. I re-
ceived it from a Lancashire man. It is dated March 23, and
he is giving an account of an undertaking to which he had
been a party on the west coast of Ireland. " He had taken
on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland."—(Hear,
hear.) Well, I am recommending that you should give
facilities—(Loud cheers)—to men to obtain a permanent
interest in the land.—(Cheers.) Well, he says—" He had
taken on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland.
He had planted four of his sons there. To encourage
habits of industry one is buying all the stockings brought
to him to send to England ; another has purchased a hooker
of 25 tons, and is endeavouring to encourage fishing on
the coast; another was employing upwards of 100 labourers
daily last year, but on account of being heavily taxed for
his improvements turned them oil with the exception of
10 or 12.—(Hear, hear.) From the fourth he sends a
letter addressed to himself, dated the 16th of March, 1849."
This is the account which his son gives of his proceedings
in this adventure in a part of Ireland which we suppose
to be so wild and savage that it is impossible to live in
it with any profit or advantage. He says—" The more
I see, the more am I convinced that this country has the best
prospects of any place I know of.— (Laughter.) There is
every desideratum for the enjoyment of a contented and
prosperous life." He is writing this in the midst of all the
misery surrounding him : " I see no reason why persons
should not support themselves entirely upon the produce of
their land here. Of beef, mutton, pork, an almost inex-
haustible supply can always be had. Flour, oatmeal, &c.,
should all come off the farm. A chandler's bill should never
be known, for we have already manufactured more than a
winter month's supply from the slender means we had. In
fact, I think that'rent, groceries, with some extras for cloth-
ing, &c., should be the only expenditure of a person in this
country, when once properly settled. For the yearly sum of
5/. enough fuel may be obtained, even to superfluity; and, as
for vegetables, any plant that comes under that denomina-
tion will flourish here with ordinary care." Well, contrast
this man's exertions with that estate yielding 10,5001., and
which, out of 100,003. received, had paid only 6001.
towards its permanent improvement, and then I ask
which is the best means of increasing agricultural prosperity

of a country,—to permit an estate to be cultivated under a
management like this man's, or to be under the management
of the Court of Chancery ?—(Hear, hear.) I mentioned
before, the management of property to a certain extent
by the Commission to which I hay. 3 alluded. Now, no
man has less confidence than I have in the economy of an
undertaking on the part of a Government. So far from ad-
vising this Commission entering upon the employment of
unprofitable labour, I think it ought to have for its main
object the reverting to the principle of the Bill of 1838, and
make the workhouse a test of destitution in Ireland. I can-
not believe that there can be any other effectual test. I have
not the slightest confidence in a labour rate. I certainly
have confidence in encouraging local improvement where there
is reproductive labour; but I have not the least confidence
in making labour the test of destitution ; and I believe that
if all the funds of Great Britain were obliged to support the
destitute in Ireland, upon your attaching labour as a condi-
tion of relief, that you would do the greatest mischief to Ire-
land ; that your test would not be effective, but that there
would be such an interference with the ordinary labour
market as to involve all in one common state of destitution.
—(Hear, hear.) But, seeing what difficulties you have to
encounter in effecting the substitution of a cereal crop for the
potato crop, I cannot say that I should be altogether against
such an undertaking by way of setting an example of what
an improved method of agriculture can do.—(Hear, hear.) I
am told that the Lord-Lieutenant has done great good by
encouraging the delivery of lectures on the subject. Why
not do it' on a greater scale? Why not on a limited scale
set an example of an improved system of management?
There are in one union 4,000 able-bodied paupers—now, if I
had 4,000 able-bodied men, and if I could employ them to
open a road to an inaccessible part of the country, I think it
would be better than to make them break stones. I admit
most distinctly that there is no test you can rely upon ex-
cept the workhouse test, but certainly I would not exclude
altogether, supposing such a local commission as I have
suggested were appointed, the cultivation of an estate for
the purpose of serving as an example to the people what
was the best mode of substituting a corn for a potato crop.
Some Hon. Gentlemen say they never heard of such a thing,
and they ridicule the idea of managing estates by a Govern-
ment Commission. But what did you do in the case of the
forfeited estates after the rebellion of 1745? You took the
whole of the forfeited estates after that rebellioa, and you
appointed a commission for their management.—( Hear, hear.)
I think that it was a cumbrous commission. Probably their
duties were too much for them. The members consisted of
a different class of persons from that which I would recom-
mend to be employed for the management of estates in Ire-
land. But the principle of that Act was a most wise one.
Those estates were subject to heavy encumbrances. It was
not a case of simple forfeiture of estates, and the Crown
taking unencumbered possession. The estates were sub-
ject to heavy mortgages and other charges. The trustees
were directed to pay off the mortgages and the other bur-
dens ; and they were instructed to manage the estates as satis-
factorily as possible. The Act under which this was done is the
25th of George 11., char. 41 (1752), and is entitled "An Act
for annexing certain forfeited Estates to the Crown inalien-
ably, and for making satisfaction to the lawful creditors
thereupon, and to establish a method of managing the same,
and applying the rents and profits thereof to the better civi-
lizing and improving the Highlands of Scotland, and pre-
venting disorder there for the future." That Act provided,
first, for the satisfaction of the creditors, so far only as the
value of such lands. It next empowered the Commissioners
to grant leases, and, where estates comprehended whole
parishes, to divide the same into more parishes, and grant
competent provision to the new ministers. It also authorised
them to erect schools on the said estates for instructing young
persons in reading and writing, and in the several branches
of agriculture and manufacture, and to supply schools with
the material for agriculture and manufactures, and for the
raising of flax. Now, I should not at all object to schools
being established in the west of Ireland for the pur-
pose of instructing the youth in agriculture—. ( Hear, hear)—
nor would I think the encouragement of the raising of flax
an undesirable object.—(Hear, hear.) But the question
which I am at present considering is whether such a com-
mission can be instrumental in promoting the transference
of property. I would advise no rash proceeding in this re-
spect. I see no advantage in throwing into the market an
immense quantity of property, even if it could be disposed
of.—(Hear, hear.) I think that the throwing of a great
quantity dproperty simultaneously into the market would
inevitably have the effect of depressing the market. I would
therefore advise the recourse to no such proceeding. But
the question is whether such a commission would not facili-
tate the voluntary transference of property. Last year you
admitted the principle.—(Hear, hear.) You passed an Act
for the purpose of promoting the transference of encumbered
estates. By that Act you gave power to the owners of such
estates to sell, and you gave power to a single encumbrancer
to sell, with the consent of the Court of Chancery—you ad-
mitted
the advantage ofsuch a system as I am now advocating ;
but what I greatly fear is that the mechanism of your Act
was so cumbrous that it will not be able to effect your de-
sign.— (Hear, hear.) Since you have decided, then, upon
the principle that the retention of many of those estates is
of no advantage to the owners, that they are of no advan-
tage to the eacumbrancers, that they are a positive evil with
respect to the solvent proprietors in their neighbourhood, and
that they are prejudicial to the public interest, what I now
recommend you to consider is, whether you ought not still
further to facilitate the voluntary transfer of encumbered
estates; for I am convinced that if you rely upon the cum-
brous process of the Court of Chancery, you will not give
effect to your own designs.—(Hear. hear.) I know that I
am rendering myself liable to the charge of meddling with
the established rights of property—l know it may be said
that unprofessional men in their attempts to secure the ad.
vantages of the introduction of new capital into the country
are apt to disregard vested interests. But I wish to confine
myself, as far as possible, within the limits sanctioned by the
highest equity lawyers. lam speaking now of the principle.
It was said by the present Lord Chancellor (Cottenham)—
and I could not name a judge that ever sat in the Court of
Chancery of higher authority in matters relating to the
principles of equity jurisdiction—(Hear, hear)—the Lord
Chancellor, with respect to the principle of facilitating the
transference of Irish estates, said

" Unfortunately for Ireland, the landed property there, to
a large extent, was in a situation not only detrimental to
those who had an interest in the land, but almost injurious
to the community at large. A very largo Portion of it vras
heavily encumbered by mortgages, charges, and other in-
terests; so that the ostensible owner could hardly be said to
have any estate in the land at all. When a man was really
the owner of an estate, he had both the means and the mo-
tive for improving it; but it was impossible for a landlord
whose income arising from his landed estate was intercepted
by mortgages and other charges to discharge those duties
which a landlord should discharge. This was a most in-
famous state of things."
Another Lord Chancellor— an Irish Lord Chancellor (Lord
Campbell)—speaking of the tenure of Irish property, said—
" Titles in Ireland were in a most deplorable condition. In
Ireland the registers were exceedingly bad, and instead of
clearing up titles, and making them more certain, often in-
volved them in inextricable confusion."
Lord Langdale, the Master cf the Rolls, said—

"The interference in such a case as the present is of the
same sort and character as all the other legislative interfer-
ence with private property for public purposes, and because
this interference is intended to secure the payment of debts,
or the performance of private obligations, which would not
otherwise be performed. It is not more, but somewhat less
objectionable than the interference with private property and
contract which is authorized by Acts for railways, docks, or
other public works."
. _

Now that is the principle supported by these eminent legal
authorities. As to your Bill of last session, I feel the greatest
doubts as to the working of it, and my fears are confirmed by
these remarks of the Master of the Rolls

" I entertain considerable doubts whether the cautious pro-
visions made by the Commons to prevent sales for less than
their value, are not only more than are necessary to effect
their object, but so stringent as to impair the efficiency of
the additional process which the amendments are intended
to provide." The Noble Lord, you observe, speaks with the
authority of a master.—(Hear, hear.) " Considering the
caveats, the notices (sometimes diffictet, if not impossible to
serve), the valuations, the live years to elapse before a per-
fect and unimpeachable title can be obtained, the liabilities
as for breaches of trust, and the powers given to redeem, it
is manifest that the obstacles to sales under these provisions
are very great. Perhaps they may, in their application, be
found so great—in many cases where there is considerable
complication -as to make the additional process impractica-
ble, and to leave to him who desires to have the benefit of the
act that particular mode of obtaining it which was at first
provided by your Lordships."
Now what was the benefit which Lord Langdale suggested
as a substitute for the imperfections of the Bill of last year ?
It was to go into the Court of Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) You
substituted a more simple process, which Lord Langdale
thought cumbrous and impracticable, and, as a remedy, he
suggested a suit in the Court of Chancery.—(Laughter.) It
is not for me to say a word inconsistent with the highest re-
spect for the Court of Chancery; but when the Master of the
Rolls says that the new process which you adopted would be
ineffectual, and that you must resort to the advantages
afforded by the Court of Chancery, I may at least refer to the
Lord Chancellor, who presides over that court, as an autho-
rity as to what that benefit would be. I find that the Lord
Chancellor thus expressed himself on this subject :
" He had been himself familiar with the practice of the
Court of Chancery for many years past, and he well knew
the great benefits which it conferred upon the public; but at
the same time he should own that he would not willingly
enter that court as a suitor, nor would he advise any of his
friends to do so, if they could, with propriety, keep out of
it."— (Great laughter.)
His Lordship was quite willing to enter the court as Lord
Chancellor, but not in any other capacity.—(Laughter.)
That is the opinion of the Lord Chancellor as to the remedy
which the Master of the Rolls thinks would be more effec-
tual than your Bill of last year. The Lord Chancellor would
not wish either to enter the court as a suitor himself, or
would not advise any of his friends to do so if they could pos-
sibly keep out of it. My Hon. and Learned Friend behind
me (Mr. Napier) has taken rather a statesman's than a
lawyer's view of this matter. I know that any lawyer could
get up and say that it would be utterly impossible to effect
what I want to have done. I would not stand before a
lawyer a single instant on such a point—(Laughter)—but if
you admit the principle, it would, I think, be better for all
parties to facilitate the transfer as much as possible.—(Hear,
hear.) Why are we to be deterred by legal difficulties, and
by all the chicanery of a court of equity, if we can effect an
object which we believe to be most desirable without taking
any step that is not consistent with equity and justice?
What did you do with the Land Improvement Act? You
enabled the Treasury to advance money for the improve-
ment of estates. I am only astonished how so useful an
Act was allowed ever to pass through both Houses.—
( Laughter.) Applying purely legal and equitable princi-
ples to it, here is a model of an Act. I believe the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who sits near me (Mr. Stewart) pro-
phesied the failure of the Act. Here is the Act-10 and 11
Vic., c. 13—" Money may be advanced for the imprevement
of estates in Ireland," with fall the incumbrancee and all
these different complicated tenures, the head landlord, the
intermediate landlord, and all the iucumbrances. You want
to improve an estate, and you know that for all these par-
ties to give their consent is hopeless, and you provide, there-
fore, that notice should be given of the intention to improve,
and those parties can object if they please; then the paymaster
of civil services decides whether the objections are futile and.
irrelevant ; if they are so, he advances the money. He ad-
vances money on the estate, with all those complicated
tenures upon it, and then there is a rent-charge fixed on the
estate. Now, suppose the rent-charge is not paid for two
years, how does the Crown proceed to recover this money?
'The paymaster of the civil services, as soon as the rent-
charge has been in arrear two years, may apply in a sum-
mary manner to the Court of Chancery for an order for the
sale of all or a competent part of the land to defray the
charge. Now, what does the Court of Chancery do ? " The
Court of Chancery shall be authorised to direct the pay-
master of the civil services, without any further process,
writ, or other proceeding, to raise by sale the amount of the
rent-charge due at the time of the sale, the surplus to bo
paid to the owner or the Accountant-General of the Court of
Chancery for the benefit of the parties interested. The pur-
chaser shall not be bound to see to the application of the
money—any conveyance executed by the paymaster of
the civil service shall bo binding, and conclusive,
and give all estates a right and title." Now,
that is the way in which you solved that difficulty.
The paymaster of the civil forces says to the Lord Chan-
" here is an error of two years," and the Chancellor

issues an order compelling the sale of that estate, the pay-
master gives a title against all the world, and the purchaser
has nothing to do with the application of the money. Now,
let me ask you why you cannot apply the same rule to
estates in great arrears of the poor-rate ?—(Cheers.) Now
I be; to call year attention to that. It is proposed that the
arrears on certain estates should be remitted. I hope they
will not be remitted.—(Cheers.) Now one must, some time
or other, determine whether or no legal obligations imposed on
estates shall be imposed or not.—(Hear, hear.) I do not
see why, if there be an arrear for poor rate for a certain time
upon an estate, I do not see why these estates should
not pay the arrear, and if they cannot pay, why you should
not sell a portion of them to cover the amount due.—(Cheers.)
Now, does that enable a co nmission to sell such portion of
an estate as will be sufficient to pay off the arrears of the
poor-rate, and then enable the commission to give a simple
title against all the world, the purchaser having nothing
whatever to do with the application, the Court of Chancery
hereafter applying the money for the benefit of the rever-
sionary interest, and the benefit of the encumbrancer? Then
you have the means at once of releasing a certain quantity
of land in Ireland, and inviting new capital and new enter-
prise for the cultivation of it. But let your process be
simple, and let your title be perfectly secure. The arrears
of poor-rates is a lien on the land in Ireland, consequently
you have a perfect right, as it appears to me, to release a
portion of that frotn the incumbrance, and by taking that
course, invite capital, and invite enterprise, and invite small
proprietors. Don't transfer these estates from one insolvent
proprietor to another. If you d e you will do no good. This
commission having got these estates, would not throw the
whole on the market at once, but they would enable small
proprietors, with perfect. security as to title, to
come and follow the example of that young Lan-
cashire man who cultivates vegetables, lives upon the pro-
duce of the land, and writes home to his friends that he does
not think there is any country in the world more profitable
for investment than the west of Ireland. Now I really
hope that the Commission would succeed greatly in facili-
tating amicable transfers. It would bring parties to-
gether who would be convinced that there is no use in main-
taining the present state of things. The parties would be
brought together, and improvements would be proposed. I
cannot doubt that there would be amicable negotiations on
these points, and if you bad the land to dispose of, I believe
you would find not only individuals, but I believe you would
find companies in this metropolis, disposed to follow the ex-
ample of those great companies of London in the reign of
James 1., disposed to do so, less, perhaps, with the hope
of gain than with the hope of making a character by faci-
litating improvements in Ireland. I believe you would
have great companies coaling forward investing capital for
improvements. That, therefore, is my suggestion for this
commission to take into consideration how we can remedy
the present distress, by encouraging drainage, by encou-
raging local improvement, by opening roads to inaccessible
districts, by facilitating the erection of piers for the pur-
pose of the fisheries ; by promoting, under sound regula-
tions, emigration—not interfering with voluntary emigra-
tion—above all, addressing themselves to that main
question, the facilitating the transfer of property front in-
solvent to solvent proprietors—directing their whole atten-
tion to this point, to abandon the present injurious system
of giving gratuitous relief, whether in exchange for labour
or not, but reverting to that wiser principle of the Act of
1838, establishing that natural law for the present, and sub-
stituting the only effectual test, the test of the workhouse,
as a proof of poverty and destitution. Sir, I can with pride
say, that I propose this suggestion, in so far as it has refer-
ence to the transfer of property, with the utmost hesitation
as an unprofessional man ; but I am deeply sensible of
the necessity of applying a remedy. I cannot but believe
that if you are convinced of the evil as I am, that common
sense will cut the Gordian knot of legal and technical diffi-
culty—(Cheers)—and that you will at once say, " rather
than let the present state of things continue, we will oust the
jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery, and.supply a special
tribunal." You have ousted the jurisdiction of the Court of
Chancery in a hundred places—(A laugh)—and you would
not permit a title to be made for five years. Agree on the
principle. Have a tribunal composed of men of the highest
legal authority to decide on the case at once, with a right
of appeal to the parties, and we shall overcome all the diffi-
culties which exist, and I trust to the aid of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman behind (Mr. Napier), and to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman near me (Mr. Stewart)
who saw the difficulty when this Act passed last
session. I trust to their willing aid in this matter.
Reject this proposition if you will, but propose some other.
If you can do so, I for one will give you my most cordial sup-
pert.—( Hear, hear.) I do not know what any one may ap-
prove of—as many differ from me in this matter—l have not
sought to know that. I have been governed by nothing but
a deep sympathy for the sufferings of the people of Ireland.
—( Hear, hear.) I have felt that some measure is impera-
tively wanted, not only for the advantage of the people of
Ireland, but for the people of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
Let us remember it is impossible to free ourselves from the
connexion—the expenditure (we understood. Occasionally
the Right Hon. Baronet turned his back to the gallery,
dropped his voice to an undertone, and was occasionally quite
inaudible) must be maintained. The miserable condition of
Ireland is shown by the proceedings at the last Tipperary
Assizes. Only just consider in what manner the destitution
of the Irish people affects the condition of your own
labouring poor, by the emigration to this country,
which you cannot prevent.—( Hear, hear.) What is the
consequence of the sweepings of Ireland being poured into
this country ? See how it affects the condition of
the labouring classes here. If you could divert this im-
migration into other countries, instead of a mischief, as
now, an immediate benefit would be conferred on Ireland
and on England. The danger is not so much want
of employment in Ireland, but what is to result from
the invasion of the English labour market by so many Irish
poor. There is one other consideration to which I wish to
draw your attention. You must recollect the condition of
that part of the empire—you must observe its geographical
situation. You must recollect that while in one point of
view Ireland is a source of strength, on the other hand she
will prove a source of great peril and weakness, in the event
of hostilities on the part of a foreign power with this coun-
try.—(hear, hear.) A great man, whose authority I reve-
rence, has some remarks bearing on this point. Speaking
of the plantation of Ulster in the time of James, Lord
Bacon remarked " that by adopting the euggeotiona ha had
thrown out, great safety was likely to be given to the King's
estate in Ireland, by preventing those hostile attacks of
foreign powers which the weakness of that part of the
kingdom had-heretofore invited."—(Hear, hear.) This was
written 300 years ago, and it must also be recollected that
in the province of Munster and adjacent parts there were
now four millions of inhabitants, of which 95 parts out of
100 are Roman Catholics.—(llear, hear.) You have to a
certain extent the sympathy of the landed proprietor, but
then that sympathy has been greatly weakened by the deso-
lation which has occurred, and by the reduced condition of the
proprietors in consequence of the operation of the poor-law.
Lord Bacon said the weakness of that kingdom invited hos-
tile attacks. It is true, we have had the happiness to he
exempted from those dangers which other countries of Eu-
rope have undergone—we have been free from invasion.
But recollect that during the last century, since 1759, on
three different occasions, the attempts of France have been
directed towards that part of the United Kingdom to the
social improvement of which I am attaching so much import-
ance.—( Hear, hear.) In 1759 the attempt at invasion of
the west coast of Ireland was only defeated by the de-
struction of the French fleet commanded by Admiral
Couplans, by our fleet under Sir E. Hawke. In 1796 again
a great attempt was made by France to invade that
part of the country where now the most distressed unions
are situated. The attempt on Bantry Bay
was only defeated
by the weather. In 1798, in another of those distressed
unions, Kiliala, a landing was effected, and the first town
visited by them was Ballina. A small force of 1,100
men maintained a position in Ireland for 17days, and I think
that the town was in the occupation of the French for a con-
siderable time. I revert to these things for the purpose of
reminding you that peace may not always continue, thatyou
may have formidable combinations against you, and that
Ireland is the weak part of your empire. And if by any
decisive efforts you can promote the happiness and welfare
of the inhabitants you are not only promoting her internal
peace and advancing her internal prosperity, but, as Lord
Bacon said, three hundred years ago, you are taking security
that the weakness of that kingdom shall not as heretofore
invite the foreign enemy to our shores.—(llear, hear.) The
same high authority says " that as in the natural body, if
there be any member affected, it is enough-to draw all ma-
lign influences and humours to that part, and to interrupt
the health of the whole body ;" so it malign influences—
still to quote that emphatic language—if malign influences
humours and rheums continue in the social:, body, they will
interrupt not only the health of Ireland, but the health of
the whole of the United Kingdom.—(Hear and cheers.) In
the evils which afflict the natural body there may be
means of cure. " If an unprofitable member offend you,
cut it off and cast it from you; if the tree be unfruitful
and cumbereth the ground, you may root it up." But you
have no such remedy for evils that affect the social body.
You must bear with them ; there is no summary remedy.
These evils will continue afllictinglreland, and affecting you
deeply at the same time. It is your interest to abate them,
if possible.—(Hear, hear.) I will take hope from the extent
of the evil. If nothing of this kind had occurred, we should
have pursued the same course.—(Hear, hear.) We should
never have made up our minds to vigorous exertion to re-
lieve ourselves from the calamity. We should have gone on
trusting to the potato, a bad and insufficient food, and every
year growing more and more insufficient. But it has pleased
God to afflict us with a great calamity, and I do not despair
but that you may convert that calamity, grievous as it is,
into a means of future improvement and future security.—
(Cheers.) I do entreat of you to consider whether, out of
this " nettle, Danger," we may not pluck this " flower,
Safety ;" and convert this grievous affliction into a means of
permanent improvement and a source of future strength.—
(Loud cheers )
Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR bad, In the first instance, to ex-
press his great gratification at the high and statesman-like
views taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down.—(Cheers.) And if in the course of his own address
he went still further than the Right Hon. Gentleman in his
views, he trusted he would give him the benefit of his sug-
gestions and great practical experience. He rose to address
the House as one representing an English constituency—as
one who was intimately connected with both countries—
and who would not designate himself an English or Irish.
man, but a British subject. As one, however, intimately
connected with that portion of Ireland in which an active
opposition was evinced towards the rate in aid, he should
implore the House to consider that they were now ap-
proaching one of the most important subjects which could
come under their consideration. He would put it to the
sound portions of Ireland, if it were not as much their
interest to contribute towards the relief of the poor, as it
was for one hundred in England to support the poor of an-
other. As to the repayment of the workhouse loans already
advanced, he should not insist on that being done, on the
principle of mutual forbearance, and that such a demand,
under present circumstances, would be highly injurious. It
appeared to him that the money raised by the rate in aid
should, if possible, be administered by vice-guardians; or, if
by local guardians, that at least a paid public- officer, respon-
sible to the Government, should be associated with them.
And as it was of the utmost consequence that no arrears of
rates should be suffered to accrue, he would not have recourse
to a rate in aid until the ordinary poor-rates were not only
levied but collected; and if that was found impossible, he
agreed with the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member
for 'famworth, that all estates on which such rates
were due should be sold for the amount. Much had
been said as to the inefficacy of the rate in aid to
meet the exigencies of the case; but he was not inclined to
think that the probable sum raised would not prove suffi-
uient for all purposes. It had been argued at great length
that the measure was not of a temporary nature; and if that
were so, he should not support it; and he thought that an
intimation ought to be given to that House and the
country at large, that it should not be continued for a
longer period. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
16th report of the Poor-law Commissioners, as showing
the extreme destitution in the west of Ireland. Upon
considering the circumstances of these districts the House
must come to the conclusion that a measure was necessary
of a more general nature than that submitted by the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tarnworth. The Hon.
Gentleman here entered into various comparative estimates
of the solvency of these local districts, and drew the conclu-
sion that the western districts were every day sinking lower
in their present state of destitution; some great and cote.
preheusive measure Tf44 therefore lietessary.—(lid, btu.)

The advance of money unconditionally rather encouraged'
indolence than activity. He proposed that a commission be
established with even larger powers than those suggested by
the Right Hon. Gentleman. Their first function should be
to interfere with the poor-laws; and, secondly, they should
have the power of examining titles, and sell so much of an
estate as might be necessary for arrears of rate. In addition
to these powers he would add an equity jurivdiction for
quickly determining questions as to mortgages, and to ascer-
tain whether it would be for the interest of the country that
sums should be advanced on these securities. He would
give them power to inquire into the circumstances of encum-
bered estates, and if it should appear that the pubrc were
justified in making advances on the security of these estates,
he would unhesitatingly recommend that these advances
should be made. He believed that, under the circumstances,
no other immediate course could be taken than that adopted
by the Government. At the same time he hoped that re-
membering the words that had just fallen from the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), they would, in a calm and
dispassionate spirit, attempt the greatest of all tasks ever es-
sayed by a British Legislature—the regeneration of Ireland.
Capt. BATESON had not the opportunity of being present
when this subject had been previously discussed, and he
therefore trusted that he should be excused at this late stage
of the measure if, connected as he was with Ulster, he now
rose to protest against this most unjust, most impolitic, and
most unconstitutional measure.—(llear ) He would do so,
despite the sneers at what had been called sixpenny loyalty.
That sneer came from persons who for years had lived on
sixpenny and shilling contributionv, and who, though they
could find money for agitations subversive of the welfare
of the country, now wished to be chargeable on the loyal
inhabitants of Ulster. The scheme of the Noble Lord was,
in his opinion, worse than that of the author of " the or-
ganization of labour," for he laid it down as a principle,
that those who received relief should be employed, whereas
the Noble Lord proposed that the western unions shouldlbe
supported without any such condition. The Hon. and Gal-
lant Member then entered into a series of statistical state-
ments, to show that the funds had been most improperly
applied to the support of paupers in the receipt of out door
relief who had no right to it. It really appeared to him
that the Noble Lord wished to see only two classes in Ire-
land—his paid officers and his paid paupers.—(Hear, hear.)
The Irish Members had been taunted with not bringing for-
ward a substitute, He said it rested with the Government
to propose measures—they were responsible servants of the
Crown, and the Irish Members had a right to eschew these
measures, and to throw them out if they could, if they were
not to their liking. With respect to the income-tax,, it
would be remembered that in 1842 the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tamworth had given them an increase of
the spirit duties, which was considered as equivalent to the
income-tax ; and he asked how the House could expect
that, after three years of famine and disease, they could
now bear an additional impost ? The farmers of Ulster
had been almost ruined by the free-trade measures of that
House, yet they had supported their own poor, and were
prepared to contribute their fair share to the expense of the
State, but they were determined not to pay the debts of
these bankrupt unions. If money must be had, and he be-
lieved it was necessary, let it come from the Imperial Trea•
sury.—(A laugh.) At least the Act of Union still existed,
and upon it the people of Ulster took their stand.—(Hear,
hear.) What was wanted was a firm, honest, and up-
right Ministry, who would see that property in Ireland did
support its own poor, and if it could not do so, then the
sooner it changed hands the better. He told the Noble
Lord that if this measure passed it would be impossible to
collect rates at all in Ulster; and he would remind the
Noble Lord that last year, when the standard of rebellion
was unfurled in Ireland, the Ministry had found the value of
the loyalty and the courage of the people of Ulster—who,
notwithstanding great cause of complaint on their part,
rallied to the aid of the Government, and enabled them to
put down insurrection without bloodshed. He implored the
Noble Lord, ere it was too late, to pause before inflicting this
great cause of disaffection upon Ulster. If by carrying such
a tyrannical and oppressive measure, he at length alienated
the loyal people of that province, upon his own head be the
sin and the responsibility of the act.
Mr. H. GRATTAN believed that the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down was mistaken. He believed the
people of Ulster were loyal, and that they would not become
disloyal for sixpence.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
plan of the Right Honourable Baronet, he looked upon it as
a cheap and easy mode of disposing of the landlords of Ire-
land by a Chancery process. Ile admitted that while the
Right Honourable Baronet was Secretary for Ireland he
made, perhaps, more personal and private friends than any
one who ever held that office; but he would remind him
that the destitution and difficulty which now existed in
Ireland was not the result of the failure of any particu-
lar crop. If they had a Union in fact, as they had in
name, why should not the destitution of Ireland be relieved
from the Imperial Treasury. Supposing the Right Hon.
Baronet's plan, with regard to the sale of estates in Ireland,
were to be adopted, what would become of the landlords and
their families, and what would become of their tenants? He
could not support the Government proposition, considering
it unwise, unjust, and unconstitutional.
Mr. BRIGHT moved the adjournment of the debate, which
was agreed to.
THE AFFIRMATION BILL.

The order of the day having been read for further con-
sidering the report on this Bill as amended,
Mr. P. WOOD thought this stage of the Bill should be
passed, and the discussion taken on the third reading.
After a conversation, in which Mr. Goulburn, Sir F. Buxton,
and Sir G. Grey took part, it was agreed that this stage of the
Bill should be passed, and the third reading take place on
the first Wednesday after Easter, the 18th of April.
The House adjourned at half-past Twelve o'Clock.