The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 13, 1822.

Dion of all persons conversant with the subject, that
sufficient time should be given for individuals to
form their opinion, but that consistently with
that, the shortest time possible should be given.
With respect to the state of foreign affairs, he
could only repeat what he bad said yesterday,
that if his Majesty had to make another speech,
he could not advise him to express himself in
any other language than that which he had used
at the opening of the Session. He was ready to
admit that if the Government of this country
were engaged in negociations likely, in a short
period, to plunge the nation into a war, the pre-
sent transaction should be one which ought not
to he brought on : but he never knew a time or
a moment at which the country was less likely
to be involved in hostilities than the present.—
He would not say that a thausaud things might
not happen abroad, which might- have a tempo-
rary_effect on the money market ; but he was
convinced that that effect could not be permanent.
He therefore did not really know when such a
measure could be more safely adopted than now.
And what was the nature of that measure ? It
was one effecting a saving of 1,300,0001. a year,
without any inconvenience to the State—it was
one which had been looked to for years, and
which came accompanied by that which must
make it welcome to all parties—an augmented
and still increasing revenue. Under all these
circumstances, he could see no reason whatever
why the House should not concur in the measure;
and he firmly believed that it was the opinion of
the public, and of persons connected with finan-
cial transactions, that fair and equitable terms
were offered . between the Government on the
one hand, and the holders of Five per Cent.
Stock on the other.

The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that if he had heard
nothing of this Bill but from what had passed in that House, and
if it had been his opinion that part of the National Debt which
it proposed to pay off' was not redeemable by law—he did not
mean redeemable by a law now to be made, but by laws already
existing—he should have thought it hiS duty.immediately to
object to its progress. But he had satisfied himself on that
question ; and if he were asked why he took the liberty of ad_
dressing their Lordships at the present moment, he would say
that he did so under the impression of the sincere respect which
he felt for the doubts expressed yesterday by a Noble Earl
(Grey). The Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to'
in
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state the grounds on which he approved of the measure,
e
and said, that he firmly , believed that no man -ever before
had entertained any doubt of the five per cents. being re-
deemable. If this opinion had not prevailed, there would, as
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the Noble Earl who had just sat down had observed, have been
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:8 though
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rEedqueeitmyalb'aled,btleleen in
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ordered stock, in cases of trusts, to be transferred into 3
per cents., without regard to the state in which the testator
had left the property.. This liberty would not have been
talcen, if it had been supposed that instead of improving the
gwririty •-•...- ,n
it was stipulated that 25,000,0001 01 should
be paid off before the S per cents. could be reduced; and it
was required by another Act, that one year's notice must he
given before the 3 per cents. are paid off. A person, for
whose opinions he entertained great respect (Mr. Tierney), it
appeared, had expressed in another, place doubts of the le-
gality of the present measure, in consequence of one year's
notice not having been given of an intention to pay off the three
per cents. It appeared to him, the want of this notice could
give rise to no difficulty, if their Lordships were satisfied that
the 25 millions required by law had actually been redeemed. He
supposed it would be allowed that the persons who had a title to
the 3 per cents. might waive their right to the notice. He did
not say that the holders of the 5 per cents. might not have ob.;
jetted to such waving. They might have said—lf you do not
give a notice of one year to the :3 per cents., we shall not have
due notice : but this they had not done. H should be glad to
know whether the 24th of Geo. 111. gave any such title to the
holders of 5 per cents. That act declared that the stock which
it created should not be paid off until 25,000,0001. of the pub-
lic debt were redeemed. Now, had it been thought necessary
that the holders of the 3 percents. should not be allowed to
waive their title to a notice, a clause to that effect would have
been inserted in the act along with the condition stipulating the
previous redemption of 25,000,0001. What could the 5 per
cent. holders have to do with the notice to which the holders of
the 3 per cents. were entitled, if no clause in the act which cre-
ated the former stock referred to that notice ? Then, as to the
payment of the 25,000,0001., that was stated to have been ac-
complished in two ways, both by the operation of the Sinking
Fund, and by the redemption of the land tax. He must con-
' fess, that if their Lordshipi had nothing to guide their judg-
ment but a reference to the first mode of paying off the debt,
they might have some difficulty in interpreting this clause of the
act. But they were to consider what.lhe intention of Parlia-
ment had been. :le could not suppose the Legislature so for-
getful in passing the act in qUestion, as not to know that debt
might be paid off with one hand, and contracted with the other.
If he were obliged to give an oPinion on the point, he should
say, that if 25 millions were actually paid off and cancelled, the
condition was fulfilled. This, he theught,'must be held to have
been the understanding of the Legislature, as it was the general
understanding. But when the operation of • the redemption of
the land-tax was taken into account, there was no doubt of the
contract being complete. This much he had said in conse-
quence of the appeal made to him by the Noble Earl, for whom,
he begged to say, he entertained the most sincere respect. As
to the practical propriety of the Measure, that was a subject on
which he should not trouble' their Lordships with a single.
word. He had had no motive for rising but to deliver the opi-
nion which what bad fallen from. the Noble Earl made it. his
duty to express- •
Earl GREY disclaimed any wish, to give effect totbe. at-
.
tempts said to have been made to defeat the present nieagute.—
His only object was to save the House.froni the stainiwhich•
would fall on its character, if, without due consideration, :and
with an unusual degree of uncalled for precipitation it should
pass a Bill of so important a nature as that before' their-Lord-
ships. He thanked the Noble Earl on the' WoOlsack:for the:
pains which he had taken to clear away the' doubts which he
(Earl Grey) had yesterday expressed.. Having every possible
interest to see that the' proposed reduction should be carried
into effect, and that the Public should be relieVed as' far as, it
was practicable, he felt it his duty,.if any doubts remained on.
his mind, to state them to the House,.not to induce their Lord-.
ships to reject the present measure, but to obtain time for. its
due investigation ; and, if necessary, to allow those individuals
whose interests were concerned to &fend them at their.Lorda
ships' bar. The Noble Earl opposite had admitted that, the
Five per Cents. were not redeemable until twenty-five millions
of the National Debt should have been paid off. The simple
question for their Lordships to consider was, whether twenty-
five millions had been so discharged as to give Parliament a.
right to pay off the Five per Cent. Stock ? Notwithstanding the
opinions expressed in the House, he thought that the Act re.-
quired 25 millions of National Debt to be bona fide discharged,
andnot constructively so. The difficulty had struck the Noble
Earl on the Woolsack, although he had declared himself satisfied
that the required amount had been cancelled by the operation
of the Sinking Fund and the Sale of the Land 'lax. He (Earl
Grey) wished ask, whether it was a bona fide reduction of
the public burthens, or only a constructive reduction, which
would enable Government to say that they had fulfilled the re-
quired condition ? He would put a case to the Noble Earl on
theM'oolsack—Suppose that he (Earl Grey)had dui encumbrance
of 10,0001. on his estates in the shape of mortgage, and should
wish to raise 5,0001. more. He applies to a person, who says
that he is willing to lend the money at five per cent. interest,
but insists that he shall not be paid off till 5,0001. of the ori-
ginal mortgage shall have been extinguished. He (Earl Grey)