The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-06 00:00:00

small boroughs that were not (I;s'ranehied by voters from
the neighbourhood, when that even was not to be
done by Parliament, but by a sort of riding Com-
mission—a Quarter-Master-General ; and when they
were by Commissioners and Deputies disfranchising
voters in all the boroughs that were reserved, it wa.
to hint most extraordinary that a respect for the
rights of the people should be assigned as one of the
reasons for not uniting Gateshead and Newcastle.—(Hear.)
He was not aware that it would be necessary to divide on
any one place of schedule D ; but on this place he was de-
termined to divide. Ne must object to including Gates-
head, while Chelsea with its 46,000 inhabitants was ex
eluded.—(Hear.) If he stood alone he would divide
against including Gateshead in the schedule.—(Hear,

" Question, question.)
Mr. D. HARVEY, after contrasting the population
and importance of Merthyr Tydvil with that of Gateshead,
proceeded to ridicule the course adopted by the Opposition
on this occasion. They seemed, for the first time, to
have made the discovery, if he was to judge from their
proposition with respect to Merthyr Tydvil, that the 1331
was not sufficiently jacobinicat, and not halt enough demo-
cratical.—(A laugh.) Why, they now exclaimed, refuse
a Member to Merthyr Tydvil, with a population of 34,000
persons? Was this, then, the result of the cogitations of
the Cabinet at Pall-mall?—(A laughs.) Was this the
plan which they had determined to propound? After
more than a summer month spent in deliberation, was this
the oozings of their design ?—( A laugh.) Here was
population taken as the basis of representation by the
defenders of New Sarum. On what ground, then, he would
ask, did they contend against the dissolution of the boroughs
in schedules A and B? and why, he would ask, if they
had determined to broach this, their new plan of Reform,
did they waste so many evenings in pronouncing funeral
orations over the bodies of the slain?—(Hear, and laugh-
ter, with significant cheers from the Opposition.) If this
was their course, and their intention, why had they ex-
pended so much argument in opposition to the destruction
of the system of nomination ?—(A laugh.) He was aware
that for the purposes of oratory, it was a very inconvenient
thing that a Member should be compelled to confine him-
self to the mere question put from the chair.—(Cheers
and laughter from the Opposition.) Ile knew this well ;
hot in the debates on the Bill, every step they had taken
furnished new ground for declamation, and the topics for
the speeches of the Hon. Members were inereased by the
progress of disfranchisement. The boroughs of schedule
A furnished matter for lamentation and illustration in
speaking on schedule B; and so they might expect it
would he to the very conclusion of the Bill.—(hear.)
The Hon. Member concluded by expressing his opinion,
that the wealth, respectability, and number of the popula-
tio❑ of Gateshead fully justified the proposition of the Go-
vernment.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN said that the Hon. Member
had delivered himself of one of those hackneyed speeches
of vulgar abuse with which the House had been so often
favoured in the course of the debates on the Bill.—
( Hear.) It was not his intention to detain the House for
many minutes; but he could not avoid observing that the
other side placed themselves in rather a ludicrous situa-
tion, when they asserted they could not believe the Oppo-
sition were sincere in any proposition consistent with the
principles of the Bill, because it was unreasonable.—
(Hear.) Tkere were two points, however, to which he
wished shortly to draw their attention. The Noble Lord
and the framers of the Bill had repeatedly declared that

flw, and those connected with them, never were parties
to the cry of " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but
the Bill ;" and they had also as repeatedly declared that
it was their object to make the measure before the House
final and satisfactory to all parties. Now he believed that
six or seven speakers, one after the other, declared last
night that they knew the Bill was not to be final; now
they did not wish it to be final ; and the Hon. Member
for Westminster had distinctly declared that no arrange•
ments, with respect to the institutions of a great country
like this, could be final. Now he (Sir E. S.) charged
the Government with giving encouragement to declara-
tions of this kind, and with adopting a course which was
likely to make the measure anything but final. It had
been said over and over again by Members, supporters
of the Government, that they postponed their objec-
tions to many parts of the Bill, merely because they
wished to accelerate its progress ; and they had even gone
so far as to admit that they waived their objections for the
present, and postponed their propositions for more exten-
sive changes to another and better opportunity.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member for Westminster even declared, in order
to stay all discussion, that there was no clause in the Bill
so trifling that opposition to it might not endanger the
whole measure. —(Hear.) And yet, in the face of all
this, and with the knowledge th it the measure was not to
be final, the Members of the Government had called on
their supporters to pass it without inquiry or discussion.—
(" No, no," and hear.) He would ask whether the Mem-
' hers of that House had not been called on to suspend their
judgments, and abandon all inquiry, in order that the Bill
might be passed more speedily through that House.—
(Hear, hear, and " No.") He would not, however, pursue
that subject further at present. They were now trying
the Government on their own principles with respect to
Gateshead and Merthyr Tydvil ; and when the House heard
that Newcastle, which was to return two Members, formed,
it might be said, but one town with Gateshead, or, at least,
was connected with it by a bridge, while Merthyr Tydvil
was full twenty-five miles from Cardiff, to which it was to
be joined for the purposes of representation, he thought
they would confess that the present wag a case well cal-
culated to try the question of the fairness of that division
of representation which the Government professed their
desire to preserve.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said the reason why the Government
drew a distinction between the case of Gateshead and
Merthyr Tydvil was this, that Merthyr Tydvil was situ ited
in Wales, where the system of contributary boroughs had
always prevailed, and which was so continued with respect
to other places in the schedule. With respect to the ob-
servations of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on the sub-
ject of the Bill being final, although they bad not much to
do with the borough of Gateshead, he would merely oh.
serve, that the Government were anxious to make the Bill
final, and they had offered no other opposition to the dis-
cussion of its merits than by requesting its supporters not
to endanger its success by a number of different proposi-
tions intended to effect the same object. If they had re-
commended harmony on these points, the reaso❑ for it
might perhaps be found in die fact of their being opposed
by a set of gentlemen who were guided in their resistance
to the Bill by party arrangements, without reference to its
merits, and wishing, as the Government did, to carry the
measure they had framed, they had undoubtedly expressed
a wish to avoid the discussion which might endanger it.—
( Hear, hear.) They had, however, attended to every,
suggestion, and endeavoured to comply with every ar-
rangement, which could make the Bill satisfactory to all
around them.—(Hear.) He had said thus much because
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asserted that the Go.
vernment were abandoning their declarations, and that
they did not wish to snake the present Bill final.—(Hear.)
Lord JAMES STUART said his constituents of the
borough of Cardiff had good reason to complain when they
found themselves likely to be joined to the inhabitants of
Merthyr Tydvil, a place 25 miles distant from them ; and
that too on no better reason, he had heard, than that they
were situate in the principality of Wales.—(Hear, hear.)
The town of Cardiff had upwards of 6,000 inhabitants, and
360 ten-pound householders. Cowbridge, which was to
be joined with it, had upwards of 60 ten-pound house-
holders—Llandaff, 19 or 20—making in all 450 ten-
pound voters, without those of Merthyr Tydvil; and
when it was recollected, that in places like Caine and
Morpeth there was barely the number of inhabitants above
4,000, and that they were to retain two' Members, he
; thought the people of Cardiff had good reaso❑ to consider
themselves aggrieved. He had come down to the House
with a prejudice against Gateshead, created by circum-
stances with which the Members of the House were not
familiar, but he had heard much to alter his opinion.—
He hoped, however, that the Government would take the
case of Cardiff into its consideration, and allots; his consti-
tuents the exercise of their privileges, unfettered by a junc-
tion with Merthyr Tydvil.—(Hear, bear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that although there was
an apparent hardship in the case of Merthyr Tydvil, still
it should be recollected by the Noble Lord that the 13i11
gave two additional Members to the representation of
Glamorganshire ; and when it was also recollected that
the county bad only 100,000 inhabitants, and that it
would then possess four representatives, lie thought its
inhabitants could not complai❑ much of their want of a
due proportion of Members. With respect to Gateshead,
he could only say, that its wealth, population and com-
merce, formed a foil justification for placing it among the
places in Schedule D. It had been asked if it could be
expected that the present measure would be a final one?
That would of course depend upon circumstances. If it
were found to work well then it would be desirable that
it should be final ; but, on the contrary, if it were found
not to work well, its present supporters would not wish
that it should be considered a final measure.— (Hear,
hear.) For himself, it appeared to him that the Bill
would give a greater weight to the interests which were
entitled to it, while at the same time it would in no way
endanger any of the valuable institutions of the country.
Mr. STEPHENS, adverting to what had been stated
in the course of the debate as to the supposed interest of a
Noble Lord, a member of the Cabinet, in Gateshead, de-