The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

of their administra-
teform. He had a
gentleman connected
re received an assor-
t of the Bill to which
'eyed essential to its
tt.a to the House as
During the recess, he
ithers, who confirm.
o been assured by the
endment now before
;as not of a hostile
th the Gallant Ge-
oval of the proposed
,mised to support the
:ries of, " Oh, oh.")
red that he was act-
is Majesty's Govern_
seemed necessary to
and and Ireland, hi_
beter, he thought,
Members than to
of April, the Noble
it was thought de..
rourable to the prin.
the House should
een induced to relax
hinking it of vital
of April the Noble
:r, said, that in order
hich seetue I to have
'e Noble Lord (J.
wished to state that
re the whole number
ly proposed to. take
se, upon consulera-
diminish its Mein-
bink that such an
Bill as to induce
ever considered the
Bill.—(Hear. )
vas declared to be
on of his Gallant
ac
.invidious mea-
set down as enemies
ith sides.) He was
language.—(Hear.)
,nd repeated cries of
,Ipport the Govern-.
ling could ever have
iosition to it might
to disfranchisement
he had always con-
part of the consti-
e time he haul never
) universal suffrage;
t if those measures
to others by which
would speedily be
Reformer who could
Reform every week.
1, oh.") He was
ut off his principles
,—(Repeated cheer-
r, by his Indecision,
rew doubt upon his
cheering.) Neither
)assed his word to
uld support his mo.
r his political inde-
the Government to
y of every man ear-
Irivate interests--to
rtunes, but those of
learer than his own
cter for political in-
gression.) But the •
had been such, as
upon a die, which,
cast.—(Cheers.)—
its, as it endangered,
I tranquillity of the
t himself in a posi..
lot retract his pro--
he (after the decla-
dlor of the Exclie-
duty to his consti-
leers.) He could
ose cheers. Who,
h cheers to impugn
.) Let them stand
He did not shrink
ad been involved ;
led into his present
ence. He was pre-
be trust which they
ived of hit;:conduct,
should be the carr-
el on that occasion,
e would carry with
lection of the cour-
that House, and a
im into private life
:egrity.—(Cheers.)
to Gallant General
of change of lan-
ich, however easily
hful enemy, could
nfidin!, friend. If
.hed at that change
t be the astonish-
nge of language.--
hing that the G
r—(Hear, bear)---
reconcile his oppo-
with his own pro.
t know what the
uents, who would,
course followed by
Lis readiness to re-
defeated the tries-
attached—(Hear,
aslant Baronet hal
parture by one of
beers and laughter)
) wished to say a
complain that his
i on a question of
or three evenings
I.) In whatever
ght have had with
ion, he (Mr. Stan-
in confidence ; fur
Thant Member a as
hat he was tu o
appeared now that
confidential roan-
!l' who moved the
rnself to support a
o defeat the meta-
-rear, hear.) Al-
(Sir R. Wilson)
:endency.—( Hear,
heard the No:ule
much of his little
e hear the Noble
fight forward with
Lord thought that
le Bill would sup-
sear.) The object
t the confidential
dyed upon, was to '
le measure of the
know what gen-
(A laugh.) Par-
strangely :nixed. •
des were strangely
illy calculated not
t to catch as m;•
Ministerial) a de.
',ere so nnwillin;
to a hasty division
ho introduced the
ime when his me-
ad not underpin
Yes, yes.") Well,
Hear, and order.")
ler in his not-con-
-Yes, yes, an]
'er it had not been
take more certain
afforded by this
cries of -" Hear,
ntentions to move
of Great Britain
e not then a little
ore into disfavour,
:ed in contrast to

Was it not then
present shape, as
er the whole Bill
) ask the Gallant
in the di.enssioo
,nrenieuces wlii ti

ir:ionsuf the in;
ktion? had th
r the discunion (4,
at principle Ivo
id still more
Y'—(Hear, bear)

and no, no.)--,And ha I not the discussion
.of diet Ante,
► niversaily approved principle been renewed upon a deltas.
which professed to concede the relative proportion of the
_ representation of England and Wales to that of the re-
mainder of the United Kingdom ?—(Cheers.)—lf hr
rightly understood the Hon. Member for Southwark, that
Gallant Officer was hound, in duty to his constituents,
to oppose the resolution then before the House, altheugh
he could not support the 13111.--(No, no, and loud cheer-
ing.)—What, then, was he to support the resolution and
the Bill also ?—(No, no, and yes, yes.)—Well, then, he
was bound to speak against the Bill, as he had spoken,
and to vote for it—(Nu, and cheers)—or to speak in fa-
vour of the amsndment and not to vote for it or for the
Bill? The Gallant Member seemed to him to hare very
doubtful notions of his duty.—(Hear.)—He understood
the Gallant General to !egret that the English people were
by tae Bill to be less efficiently represented, because the
number of those professing to represent them was to be
diminished. But he would ask the Hon. and Gellant
Member, did he not believe, that although the number of
English Members in that House were diminished by the
Bill, still the real constituency, the nunther of English.
men actually represented, would be considerably increased ?
—(Cheers.)—The country had received the Bill with
almost unqualified and universal approbation.—(Loud
cries of " No," and " Yes," from different parts of the
House.)—The country was well pleased that the consti-
tuency was enlarged, and complained not that the number
of representatives was diminished by the measure, which
at the same time cut off se many sources of corruption.—
(Cheers.)—Were the Hon. Members who are prepared to
vote for the amendment proposed by the Gallant General
prepared to go still further, and vote that the Members
of the House should be increased?—(No, no, and hear,
hear.)—This would be the result of the vote, unless they
were also prepared to contend that no additional Members
should be given to Ireland and Scotland.—(Hear )—The
Hon. and Gallant General was, however, willing that
Scotland and Ireland should receive an increase ; but how
_ were they to receive it, unless by giving to them some of
the seats taken from rotten boroughs of England, or by
increasing the whole amount of the representation? This
was the dilemma into which they were thrown by-those
who opposed the reduction of the number of the English
Members, but who in reality were anxious, through the
means of flint opposition, to defeat the Bill altogether.—
(Hear.)—There was a part of the question, connected
with the proportions of the Members to be given to the
three kingdoms, which he approached with the greatest
pain. Much, indeed, did he regret, after all the discus-
sions they had alt eady had on such subjects, and after the
passing of that great healing measure of Catholic emanci-
pation, which it was fondly hoped would have set the
question at rest for ever--much, indeed, did he regret to
hear the Noble Lord (Stormont) revive those discussions,
and by again throwing down the apple of discord in that
House seek to secure an opposition to the Bill on clues-
tions of religious et.ntroversy.—(Hear, hear, hear.)--The
Noble Lord contended that it was not so much a question
of the comparative number of Metobers which should be
given to Ireland, as the propriety of not giving a greater
proportion of representatives to Catholic Ireland.—( Hear.)
—ln this respect he differed in some degree from the Gal-
lant General, who had no objection to give additional
Members to Ireland and Scotland ; but then the number
• of:the representatives of England was not to suffer
any decrease. For his (Mr. Stanley's) part, he con-
fessed he did not attach touch impor ante to these
questions of national proportion.—(Hear.)—As long as
he found great cities and towns, or populous districts, de-
prived of their fair share in the representative system of
the country, it differed little to bitn whether these towns,
end these cities, and these districts were situated in Eng-
land, land, or Scotland for, he thanked God, they
were now one united people.—(Cheers.) Did, however,
the Hon. Members and the Noble Lord who advanced
these arguments respecting Ireland and her representation,
recollect the consequences which must follow them, or
consider what arguments they paced in the mouths of
• those who contended that Ireland, if it was to be consi-
dered as a part of the empire, was entitled to her fair
share in the representation ; and that if she was not fairly
represented in the Parliament of England, she must be re-
presented elsewhere ?—(Cheers.) Ile entreated them to
consider this, and to beware how they strengthened the
influence of those who advocated a separation, which, he
trusted in God, would never take place, by denying. to
Ireland those rights which she was fairly entitled to de-
mand frorr her.—(Hear, hear.) The complaints of the
advocates of the repeal of the Union were the more dan-
gerous in proportion as they were founded in justice ; and
he trusted the time was gone for ever, when they could
hope to govern by a system of exclusion. They had
• passed the Catholic Relief Bill; they had abolished the
penal laws ; they had put an end to all religious distinc-
tions, and he implored them, in the name of God, unless
they intended to revert again to the vicious system they
had abandoned, not to grudge to'qtthotic Ireland that fair
share of representation in the Parliament of England, to
which she was entitled by her wealth, intelligence, and popu-
lation. He turned now to the areutnents of another opponent
of the Bill, his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Mont-
gomeryshire (Mr. C. Wynn), whose arguments he con-
fessed he had listened to with no little astonishment. That
Right Hon. Gentleman had pursued the extraordinary
course of arguing on that occasion against the principle of
the Bill, although he had formerly expressed himself favour-
able to it.—(Hear, and "No !" from Mr. C. Wynn.)
He begged pardon, he thought his Right Hon. Friend
had dime so; but at all events his Right Hon. Friend, if j
not cogniz int of the original framing of the Bill, had been
consulted by the Noble Lord, and advised with and
listened to on the subject of the provisions of the Bill for
at least ten days before it was introduce d in that House.—
(Hear,
hear.) Ile cou'd not therefore avoid expressing
his astonishment that his Right Hon. Friend should now
give so strong an opposition to the principle as well as to
the details of a measure with which lie hail been previously
so well acquainted.—(Hear.)—The Right Hon. Gentle.
man, among other arguments against the Bill, had declared
his objection to their taking up.the principle of popula-
tion
in their distribution of the franchise. Now, the Go-
vernment did not take population as a principle, but merely
as a test, for the purpose t,f d:scovering whether the place
to which they were disposed to give the franchise was above
or below that rule of importance and consequence which
would entitle it to obtain the right of returning Members
to Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But then the Right
Hop. Gentleman (the Member for Montgomeryshire)
said that population was no test of that. He (Mr. Stan-
ley) admitted that it was not an •unvarying test, but
yet, at the same time, it enabled them in many cases to
ascertain the real condition of those places to which it
was necess,ry that their inqu;ries should be applied. As
a proof of this, he would take leave to read a short state-
ment to the House. He held in his hand a list of six places
above and six places below the standard of population fixed
by the Bill in the Schedules A. and B. ; that is, of six first
places above and six below the numbers of 2000 and of
4000, which were the lines of disfranchisement adopted
by the Covet nment. In the six first places below the line
of 2000 inhabitants, he found a total of 152 inhabited
houses at a rent of 10/. a year, making an average of 25
101. houses in each of those places. Again, in the six
first places above' the line of 2000, there were 411 houses
• rented at 10/. a year, making an average of 68 inhabited
houses of that description in each borough.—(Hear.)—
Again, taking the six first places above and below the line
uf 4000 inhabitants, he found that the number of 101.
houses in the six below were 766, making an average of
127 and a fraction. In the six boroughs above the line of
4000 inhabitants, he found there was a total of 1314 inha-
bited houses at 101. a year, 'making on average of 219
• houses of that description for each borough.—( Hear. )
He repeated his confession, that population was not an un-
et ring test, but he must also be permitted, from this state-
ment, to repeat his opinion, that it afforded evidence of
that degree of wealth anti prosperity which formed the
ground of preference in conferring the right of representa-
tion..--(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Mem-
ber for Alonteomeryshite), had object, d to the destruction'of
the nomination of boroughs, and repeated the old arguments
on the benefits the House derived from three boroughs,
through the facilities they afforded to the entrance of
merit and talent into that House. He admitted that ar-
gument to its full extent, but he teas satisfied that there
would be as goo I an opening fir virtue, and talent, and
knowledge, after the Bill passed. as there was now, and he
was quite sure that there would be no indisposition on the
part of the people to avail themselves of their assistance.
—(Heer, hear.) The argument was, at best, a mere or-
atumentum ad hominem, and he was not disposed to de-
prive
jthe Right Hon. Gentleman of the advantage of it.—
(Hear, hear.) He was sure, however, that there would be
no want of talent in that House if the Bill received its as-
sent, and he really bad no fear eves that it would become
too pure.--(Hear.) While he was on this part of the
question, he might, say that he had received, not three
hours since; a letter from a number of respectable persons,
begging him to offer himself, in the event of a general
election, as a.eandidate for the county of Montgomery.—
• • '(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He hoped his Right Hon.
Friend would not be alarne•d.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
s He had no intention to avail himself of the offer thus so
liberally made to him ; I,ut lie mentioned it for the pur-
pose -of showing that these persons, of whom there were
so many distinguished by much greater powers than he
could pretend to, would havenodifficcounlsttyitiunelgaesttiinnginiannt)e
..-s the House, and that they would find

place, ready to come forward and afford them an opportunity
of serving their country in that House. He held that, indeed.
to be one of the great benefits of the Bill, that men of virtu,
and knowledge will have an opportunity afforded them o'
getting into that House without purchasing their seat. et
being indebted to the favour of a patron.—(Hear.)—Tle
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Mon,gomere
seemed to think that the Members fir the House should
he increased rather than reduced, and that they shook'
keep pace in that increase with the growth of the popula
don anti prosperity of the country. Every one who
knew anything of the conduct of business in that
House, and pat ecu'arly in the Committees up stairs, must
be sensible that numbers retarded the despatch of affeirs,
and that business was better done by those who repre
' tented large bodies of constituents than by those why
merely represented their own opinions.—(Hear, hear. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman said, however, that the husi-
ness ofthat House was o
r
nominationprincipally
boroughs.
transacted
by theHe (Mr
:Ilem-
tort
of the
Stanley) denied that it was so. Except on some occa
%ions, when Members of that description were canvassed
for peculiar interest, or when they were called on to at-
tend to the wishes of some of their constituents, or to
obey the commands of their patron, he appealed to all
who heard him whether the real business of the Hous,
was not transacted solely by the Members for counties.—
(Hear, hear. hear.) He did not speak of public business
when he said this. He knew that the greater part o'
the public servants in that House were generally Meinheis
for those borouglen He believed, indeed, he could men-
tion Cabinets in which almost every Member sat for a
nomination borough.--(Hear, hear, hear.) He alluded
solely to that business which was intimately con-
nected with the interests of his constituents. The Bight
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) founded his chief objec-
tion to the Bill on the further demands to which it would
give rise, and the continual excitement which it must
keep up among those who would prefer these demands
And how did the Right Hon. Gentleman propose to allay
that excitement, and to stop those demands? Why, by
not giving, for the present, above one-third of that which
he admitted would be_requisite to produce a teriaporary
tranquillity, while he at the same time admitted that
something must be done:—(Hear, hear.) The argument,
he confesses!, was not very logical, but it was the Right
Hon. Gentleman's, and they were bound to take it=for its
worth. One word as to the rotten boroughs. WhiatiwaS
it that they were about to disfranchise? Not the repre-
sentatives of the people of England, but those who either
purchase a seat in that House for money, or owe it to the
favour of a patror.—(Hear, and no.) He r peated his
assertion, and he begged to call the attention of the House,
in connection with this part of the subject, to a memorable
instance of the manner in which it operated with respect
to England. The Gallant General, and those who sup-
ported him, were unwilling to increase the number of the
Members of Catholic Ireland at the expence of England ;
and yet a distinguished Member of the Catholic body had
somehow or other, by means to which it was not neces-
sary to allude, been selected to represent the English
borough of Milbourne Port.—(Hear, hear.) Did not
this form a complete answer to all the arguments which
had been put forward on the subject of the balance of re-
presentation ?—(Hear.) The rotten boroughs, in fact,
belonged to no country, and it was mere mockery to
talk of the proportion of the Members of Ireland or
Scotland, when it was in the power of any one who
pleased, or possessed the means, to enter that House for
one of the rotten boroughs of England. He had al
ready occupied the time of the House much longer than he
originally intended.—(Hear.) He would conclude, there.
fore, by repeating what he had said frequently before, that
the proposition now before them was a most insidious at-
tempt to get rid of the principle of the Bill, and secure
the desti uction of the measure proposed by his Majesty's
Government. It was clear to every man, that on the vote
to which the House would come that night hung the ques-
tion of Reform—(Hear, hear, hear)—and he warned the
timid, although, perhaps, sinecure Reformers, that how-
ever they may be led to judge of the nature of the quee-
don before them by any specious arguments, that this was
the time when they were called on to show their desire for
Reform.—(Hear.) He would tell them, and he would
tell their constituents, that by the vote of that night they
were either losing or gaining the first opportunity ever of-
fered them of gratifying or of defeating those high raised
and highly exalted hopes of the people, that they would
at least possess a House of Parhatnent really representing
the feelings, the wishes, and the interests of every class in
the country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. C. WYNN, as he had been personally alluded to
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, expressed a hope that the
House would permit him to say one or two words in ex.
planation.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, whom
he had the pleasure of, calling his friend, had charged him
with having altered his opinions with respect to the Reform
Bill, with having acted in a manner which he certainly
could not have supposed that Right Hen. Gentleman would
have supposed hint likely to act on such an occasion. The
Right Hon. Gentleman stated that lie had seen the Re--
form Bill ten days before it was presented to that House,
and that lie had been advised with and consulted on
its provisions. The Bill was certainly shewn to him
on the Saturday preceding the week on which it
was brought in, and lie then expressed his objection
to it to the Noble Lord who framed it.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) On that same evening he went still further, and
expressed to the Noble Earl at the head of the Treasury
his doubt whether he could support the whole of its pro-
visions. He told that Noble Lord that it was impossible
he multi pledge himself to support it, but that he would
wait until its details were explained more precisely, as he
had not been consulted until the plan was completely set-
tled. The reason why he did not speak more decidedly
at that time was, because he bad not an opportunity of
reading the Bill more than once, and he was anxious to
hear the opinions of those with whom he had always acted
on previous occasions in opposition to some of those strong
plans of Reform which had been more than once urged on
their attendon.—(Hear, hear.)—For these reasons he de-
ferred, until a future day, saying more on the subject of
an opposition which he, of course, considered to carry
with it the immediate relinquishment of office.—(Hear.)
--If it was meant to be insinuated that he had acted un-
fairly in not immediately tendering his resignation, he
could only say, that he was most anxious, if he could find
it possible, to avoid opposing the Bill. He felt that lie
was bound to do so as much from the feelings of private
regard as from respect to the opinions of a large body of
his constituents, who entertained opinions favourable to
Reform._( Hear, hear.)—He wished, therefore, to sup-
port the Bill; but, on the most mature consideration, he
fund he could not.--(Cheers.)—The announcement
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had just made with
respect to the county of Montgomery, was no news to
him. He had heard of the intentions in the Right Hon.
Gentleman's favour some time ago ; but he could assure
him he was not afraid of meeting him on the hustings at
the election in that county. —( Hear, hear.)—Two-and
thirty years of honest and zealous service in that
House would, he hoped, prove sufficient to plead
his cause with effect to the great body of his can-
stituents. To their impartial judgment on his conduct
he fully trusted, anal he feared not the result.—(Cl eere.)
Mr. STANLEY disclaimed all intention to impute any
act of unfairness to the Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for Montgomery. All he had said was this, that
he felt surprised his Right Hon. Friend could have any
doubt for a week, or for a day, respecting the principle of
a Bill which he had that night condemned so strongly.
Sir J. 111URRAY said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had spoken of the Bill as likely to give that House better
Members for counties; but it would not be easy to find
more honest and altle representatives than they already
possessed in the person of the Member kr the county of
ecoßlop
open
wastgter, aaioslbems
door,el aytt
excuse
whichxlyteouOns:nel
eleef of mice
ror tdm mainsece:xsoaepf,
,ce changes,
salt eah,dionagi:tejesbets. objections
It thattiy
m sztehtsestyilaee Is
dtti
.:erltr,v,hoeuet would
hat
me
t
forward without delay. This was the reason offer, d'for
that great alteration in the political system of the country
which they were now called on to adopt. He knew it
would be said that the Government were pledged to a
plan of Reform, and that they could not avoid bringing it
forward as speedily as possible. He admitted that the
seeds of the present measure were sown on the Opposition
benches, and the fruits, however unripe or onwholesome,
were now offered them by the Government.—(Hear.)—
While they talked, however, of the perfection of their plan
they seemed to forget the memorable and expressive de-
claration of a great Statesman (Mr. Fox), that if, by th,
pecular interposition of Divine Providence, all the intellect
of men was collected together, it would be impossible for
them to frame a perfect Constitutb.n.--(flear, hear.)--
Applying himself to Scotland, he must say that the number
of Scotch Members were greater now than they would be
under the new system, fur it was well known that great
numbers of Scotehmen sat for English boroughs. He had
received a letter ft om the Moderator of the Synod in Scot-
and, stating that hi order to secure the Church of Scot-
land, there ought to be an addition to the number of Scotch
AMiee
mm
bb
rr proposed,s
of t h
eof
House
two oc rep
olnrinesoennst.l tv P
He e
mentionedeers a , nd foam
this
to show the extravagant notions to which the Bill had
giv
majoriltyie
olishe
fvhisd
cot
nh
setiti leln :so
entertained
ethe s
a
tme
desire. •
Mr. BERNAL said, the effect of acquiescing in the

m uion of the Hon. and Gallant Member for Liverpool
would be most injurious tiithe Eill. How was it possible
to say that the number of English Members should Is
513 ; and yet to suppose that five additional Mentbets
were to be given to Ireland and five to Scotland ? Bu'
where would b. the dangor of the addition ? Could tin
tddition of five Memhers.to Ireland, or the addition of five
Ilembers to Scotland occasion any risk to the Church ?
It was evident that the object in supporting the Hon. and
Gallant General's motion was, to throw out the Bill in
//mine; and he must express Iris surprise at the incon-
,istency of the Hon. and Gallant General, who, having
voted for the second reading of the Bill, now objected even
to its principle.—(Hvar, hear.)

Sir J. MALCOLAI, in explanation, had scarcely landed
in Eneland when he received an invitation to represent the
place for which he had the honour to sit, with an as-
surance that he should be as free as air..—( Hear, hear.)—
lie should consider himself as a most degraded human
heine, if he had consented to support opinions which well
loot his own.

Mr. NORTH foresaw when he first read the original Bill.
t
and would undertake to say that every lawyer in 1i ),
House agreed with him, that the Bill would never ),
presented for the approbation of the Cr3wn. Whit et
might be thought of the fitness of its end, the means la)
which that end was to be obtained were so manife•tly in-
,,ttfficient, . that it was impossible that any Government,
after due consideration, could think of adopting the Bill
as it was originally introduced. It sh,)wed distinctly that
those by whom it had been preferred had not fathortied the
depths of the subject to which it referred. Every page
of it betrayed marks of doubt, has'e, and imbecility. I;
bore on its face the proof of the inability of its author, and
he might apply to it the language in which a great writer
had described the feeble and ricketty offspring of the sub-
ject of his satire—

" Got while his soul did huddled notions try ;
And born a shapeless lump like anarchy."
It was evidently necessary that great alterations should be
made in the measure ; but he had hoped that those altera-
tions would be such as to correct its great original viee..—
That vice was the uniformity which the Bill introduced
into the elective franchise. He had hoped that the re-
framers of the Bill would have given to the elective fran-
chise that happy variety which had hitherto been found so
inestirnably beneficial to the country. He could not help
thinking the House had not sufficiently considered the ad-
vantages which resulted from that variety. They were of
this nature. If by any combinations of circumstances one
place h rd a leaning to a particular interest, the variety in
the franchise created an antagonist bias in another place
which corrected the partiality. The whole system of the
representation was by that process beneficially adjusted.—
But the change which the Noble Lord had made in the
Bill was merely an addition to it,—a continuance of that
(lull uniformity of the elective franchise which was the
great fault of the Bill as it originally stood. The vessel
still pursued its dull course in the stagnant water of a
Dutch canal, upon an everlasting level. Not only in
that respect, but almost in every other, the Bill was de-
fective, and worse than defective. In the peculiar cir-
cumstances of the times, one should have thought that
means would not have been resorted to to point at-
tention to the fact, that the Legislative system was
composed of three distinct parts. Yet one of the ex-
press objects of the Cabinet seemed to he, by the
introduction of three separate Bills, to blazon that
fact which every wise man would endeavour to keep
out of view. If there were any time worse than any other
for thus marking the difference in the three parts of a
Legislative Body, belonging to what were once independent
countries, it was at a time when a numerous and active
party in Ireland had declared their determination to dis-
solves the happy Union with Great Britain. One of the
soundest and most philosophical principles which influenced
the great men by whom the Bill of Rights had been framed
was, while they made the changes which circumstances
rendered necessary, to mark the extent of those changes,
and not unnecessarily to disturb established institutions.--
But what was the conduct of the present Cabinet? They
did not determine the event of the changes which they 1
proposed, and while they cut off the rights of boroughs, 1
and conferred rights on other places, they disturbed various
fixed and fundamental principles of the Constitution, which
it was not necessary to disturb, and involved in discussion
questions which it was not necessary to discuss. For in-
stance, why raise the difficult and delicate questions cone
netted with the Union between England, Ireland, and
Scotland? What purpo,,e could that answer but to excite
every had and rival feeling ; to make the Member for
Waterford haggle in a bargain with the Member for Kirk-
cudbright; anti to render Paisley envious of the better luck
of Limerick and Galway ? The jealousies and rivalties of
former times, long buried, his Majesty's present Govern-
ment hail exhumed. They had " burst their cearmenta,"..
and " ope'd the ponderous and marble jaws" of their sepul-
chre., " to cast them up again." The disadvantages, how-
ever, of the measure, the authors and supporters of it de-
clared were countervailed by the great benefit of which it
was to be productive—described by the Noble Chancellor
of the Exchequer in his calm language as the destruction
of nomination, and by the Hon. Member for Kirkcud-
bright, as the annihilation of the boroughtnongers. And
here he insist observe, that greatly as lie respected the Hon.
Member for Kirkcudbright, and highly as he estimated
his genuine and sterling talents, be bad heard him last
night, not with pleasure, but with surprise. The Hon.
Member for Kirkcudbright, after having adverted to the
retrenchments In ode by the Duke of Wellington (a decla-
ration highly complimentary to his Grace), declared that
the power of the Crown bad been so weakened and im-
paired by those retrenchments that it had been absolutely
annihilated. . And then the lion. Member added, "
you allow the power of the borough Lords to be annihi.
lated also ?" What kind of argument was this? Because
one great mound against tie injurioul increase of popular
opinion was broken down, therefore they were to de
destroy the barriers which still remained.—(Hear, hear.)
Let that course be persevered in, and nothing would be
left to resist the tide; but the Monarchy, the Pei rage,
and the Church would soon be swept away as useless rub-
bish. The ten pounds a year freeholders in counties, and
the ten pounds a year householders in towns would, for li
a time, engage in a contest, with alternate superiority,
until some conquering dictator, like those of Germany or
Gaul, would interpose and reduce all under his single
domination.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to ask the friends
of the Bill in what way they supposed the representa-
tion under it for populous places would be supplied ?
No candidate could possibly expect favour at a popular
place, without flattering the people by the adoption of
popular prejudices. Any man who hail been sent to
prison for riot or libel—any preacher of sedition from the
pulpit of democracy—any proprietor of a republican press
would be sure of success. What provision would there be
for resisting men of that description, leagued together in a
bond of common purpose? Vain would he the hope that
the country gentlemen in the House, not bound by any..
distinct tie, vacillating, doubtful, and incoherent, could
stand against such a combination. Another view of the
subject had been taken by the Right Hon. Secretary for
Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman charged a Noble
Lord, who spoke from the Opposition benches last night,
with throwing into the House that apple of discord which
every wise and good man would wish withheld. But the
Right Hon. Gentleman and the other Members of the
Government would find, that any attempt on the part of
Ministers to fix the agitation of Ireland on those who op
posed this measure would be perfectly useless. He bad
been a firm advocate of the great measure of 1829, and
particularly because it was likely to put an end to the agi-
tation of that country, and restore the peace that was so
much wanted. Everybody acquainted with Ireland was
aware that that measure tore up by the living roots some
of the strongest affections or prejudices of the Protestants
of Ireland, but they consented to the sacrifice as a means
of providing for the security and tranquillity of the
country. To obtain those objects the forty-shilliog
freeholders were disfranchised, because they were likely
to give a preponderance to the Roman Catholic interest.
That measure was one of the peace-offerings to Protestant
security. From the bench near which he then stood, the
present Lord Chancellor of England expressed himself hos-
tile to the principle of the Bill, but declared that he would
vote for it as essential to the success of the great rne ,sure.
The forty-shilling freeholders, however-, were left in the
towns, because there the Corporations were Protestant,
and they having the power of admitting freemen through
the means of their charters, would preserve their wren-
dandy. But the measure for reforming the representation.
of Ireland annihilated these Corporations, and disturbed
the balance that was there meant to be established. They
had also passed an Act of Parliament contrary to the Con-
'titution, giving to the Government great temporary
power, which nothing could justify but the great advan-
tages expected to result. On that occasion the language
of Statesmen of all descriptions was, that agitation must
be put an end to, for repose and tranquillity were 8.1)07
all things necessary in Ireland. The Government had,
however, by ibis measure, caused a far greater agitation in
Ireland than was known before—(Hear, hear)—and that
that which all good men had laboured to suppress,—
(Hear, hear.) He might say, indeed, that there was an
discordsb
eiaud)
amour commanded
non. Member of that House standing at the bar of justice,
..rnil that it hail done a great deal to remove all agitation
But it had harasSed the Protestant mind ; and
hen the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Secretary
or
gthe
rf
partiesthem of
not to throw the apple
Ireland.--(Cheers.)

The Covarnment bal thrown it, *and there it was lying
they ha I presented a measure to Ireland for ivhich Ire-
land did not ask. The Irish called for the repeal of tin
Subletting Act—for the repeal of the Vestry Act—and fin
in amendment of the Tithe Laws; but not one voice was
raised for Reform. He was wrong there, even one voice,
that of die Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford raised
in favour of Reforin as a means of promoting the dissolu
tion of the Union.—(No, no.) The Hon. and Learned
Member admitted, that to bring forward any measure ei
hat nature with an unreformed Parliament would fail ;
nut he was satisfied that with a reformed Parliament a
measure for the repeal of the Union would not be imprac
ticable.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Limerick
had denied this. But he preferred the reasoning of the
lion...and Learned Member for Waterford to that of th
,1111.111pnber for Limerick,
.for he conceived that any at-
tempt to`promote a measure for the repeal of the Unite.
with the present Parliament was quite idle, hut a re-
formed Parliament would lead to a dissolution of the Union
as a necessary consequence. The Hon. Member fet
Waterford felt that all his arguments would be confirmed
by the Irish BM. The result of that measure would be.
to place in the hands of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Waterford the power of nominating eighteen or nine-
teen Members of that House.—(L•rughter—no, no
That would be the inevitable consequence. The giving tt
the 101. renters the right of voting gave it to those wla
had a chattel interest.—(Hear, hear, oh, oh.) He had
had an opportunity of making himself acquainted with
those people, and he was quite sure that this Bill would
throw all the inhabitants of the towns into the hands of
the agitators of Ireland, Men would be returned to that
House who would be averse from all those inetitutians
which the Members of that House respected, and on those
said Members the Parliament could not rely for any co-
operation in preserving those institutions which English-
men venerated and were bound to preserve. If there were
no other reason but this, on this alone he should be ready
to give his support to tl:e motion of the .Gallant General,
because he was anxious to preserve unimpaired the English
-representation, as necessary to support and maintain the
Protestant interest in Ireland, fur which lie was anxious,
and which it was the duty of that House to support.
Mr. O'CONNELL was not surprised that the Hon. and
Learned Member should have been one of the first to in-
troduce religious altercation into this discussion; for he
had' done theeame on the Catholic question. It was easy
by such means to catch a ready cheer, and captivate a few
votes 6ir the amendment. In all that concerned Ireland,
nothing was more insulting than the air of patronage assum-
ed by some men, who had no other claim to superiority than
a pompous diction and theatrical gestures,and who pretended
to take the poor agitators under their protection. The Hon.
and Learned Member for Drogheda, though he now sat
for an Irish city, had been introduced into Parliament for
one of the rotten boroughs—(llear)—and nobody better
than the Hon. and Learned Member could defend them.
—(Hear.) He was quite misinformed, and the House
was misinformed, as to the effects of Reform in Ireland.
The Hon. Member said that he (Mr. O'Connell) advocated
Reform in Parliament as a means of obtaining a repeal of
the Union. He had done no such thing.—(Hear.) Ile
had advocated a Reform as a means of getting justice for
Ireland.—(oll ! oh.!) He repeated it, he required justice
for Ireland, and he believed that there was a chance of ob-
taining that from a reformed Parliament.—(oh ! oh !)
He had said theta Reform of Parliament would be bene-
ficial, but did the Anti-Unionia join him ? Did not Mr.
George Ensor, who was one of the most intelligent and
clever advocates of the repeal of the Union, call on the
people of Ireland to oppose Reform, as likely to raise up
obstacles to oppose the repeal of the Union ? This was
the argument of George Ensor.—(Hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said that he (Mr. O'Connell) kept
up agitation in Ireland, but what was likely to be the effect
of introducing the motion of the Gallant General ? nos,.
who looked at the Irish newspapers knew that the agita-
tion of the Reform question had not been caused by the dis-
cussion of the Union question. Those who bad most
opposed the repeal of the Union were more in favour
of . Reform. The counties of Antrim, of Down, of
Armagh, which were much opposed to the repeal of the
Union, were the foremost in promoting Reform. He did not
mean to follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through
all his statements, but he would ask, as the Hon. Mem-
ber had stated that it threatened the Monarchy, the
Church, and the Peerage, if they all were founded on no-
mination her ughs ? Did the M•tnarchy depend on them?
Could the Peerage only exist by trafficking in boroughs?
Could the Church depend on a traffic or on a corrup-
tion ? C 'old the Peerage and the Monarchy depend on
practices that were crimes in the eye of the law? The
Pe rage of England hail a better foundation. Bat was
it right to say of the Protestant Church that it Was founded
not on " liars from Heaven, but blasts from Hell ?"_
(Oh, oh !)—lf such were the character of the Establish-
ment, would they tell the people that their Church was
nourished and sustained by what they knew, to be corrup-
tion and crime? That description would make the Mo-
narchy, the Peerage, the Church, depend on very cob-
web ties. He knew, however, that they had a far better
foundation. The Hon. Member for Kircudbright had
spoken of the influence of the Crown being diminished ;
but the influence which bad been restrained was that
species of
which it had been said that " it had increased,
was increasing, and ought to be diminished." It was
only the corrupt and improper influence of the Crown
which had been diminished, and that had been taken by
the Peerage. That influence it was now necessary to
diminish ; and that which had been taken from the Crown
by the Peerage this Bill would diminish.
andlle hadu r roeir(rnerly spoken in that House of a sordid Oli-
garchy, which had usurped the privileges of the people.
But Noble Lords and Honourable Gentlemen had
well defended the Aristocracy, by showing that
usurped
what they had accidentally acquired of the property
of the people they were willing to resign. His accusation
had he. n well replied to, and a noble answer had been
given by the splendid speech of an Hon. Gentleman who
spoke in the early part of the evening. The proprietors,
of boroughs had been willing to resign their advantages.
Would those who spoke of the safety of the Monarchy
give up their emoluments ? Would those who dreaded the
fall of the Church, persuade the Clergy to resign their
plunder? He was afraid not; but if they would, he would
tell them that the Church of England would then have
nothing to fear from a reformed Pediment but what it
might have to dread from arguments founded in reason
and Christian charity. The object of the Gallant Gene-
ral's motion was to prevent Ireland from getting her full
proportion of Members. The Bill only proposed to add
live Members to Ireland, and he could not conceive a topic
better calculated to serve the cause of the anti-Unionists in
Ireland, than the proposition to deprive her of her fair
share of representation. The speeches of the Hon. Metre-
b6rs for Aldltorough, for Brecon, and for Dysart, would
admirably serve the cause of the anti-Unionists in Ireland.
England, Scotland, and Wales, combined to prevent Ire-
land from getting her fair share of the representation. The
Tories had print
d the speech of the reforming Member
for Preston, d the speech of the Gallant General
would, on the same principle, be printed and circu-
lated through Ireland. There was no better topic than
that by which to roitae the prejudices of the. Irish
than to inform them that the English, Scotch,
and Welsh Members, had continued to oppose doing jus-
tice to Ireland. No Member was to be reduced from Eng-
land, Do Member was to be reduced from Scotland, but
Ireland had lost two thirds of her Members at the Union
Ireland was the most miserable, the tnost distressed
country of the world, and what did that arise from
but the injustice done to that country
.—( No, no.) Sir
suffered from losing her dome' •
Legislature. A{l she
wanted was ce justi • • • and adequate protection by a Legisla-
ture of her own.—(Hear, hear.) Would they do justice
to Leland? Would they give her a full share ofthe
lotion of the empire, so as to take from herthe ler!s-
(necessity
of demanding a domestic Legislature 5--• H ear,hear.)—
Eve!), tongue demanded,
every heart throbbed, for a
domestic Legislature.—(No, no.) Would they give that
to Leland ? Ireland had lost two-thirds of her Members,
and now, whet; it was proposed to restore part of them,
tmong the persons who was found
toHoppose that was the
Hon. Merna c'g The
ee for Dr bode.n. and Gallant Ge
nerd bad referred to
i what
he called the combination of
eighty-five Irish Members, to compel the Ministers to agree
to their terms. there
was, indeal, a meeting of eighty-.
five Irish Members, but only one was willing to pledge
himself to resist
giving
Ireland;
taxes to Mlnietees till they had done
something for
Gallant Member Caul a combination. There were eighty.
five Members tact;ih but only one was ready to egrae to the
proposition.
uelfwere spoken of as a club of mechanics
who had combi tot. an increase of wages; and yet the
Ilon.Metnber for Drogheda supported the motion, and was
well content in making his points against the Ministers
and lauding his own religious liberality. As for the Hon.
Member for Liverpool
sistent in his ho r , he allowed that ho was con-
i sfty to Ireland.: in fee history of the
Parliament, he -
never I;r,ew as ioatance in which he bad
not voted against the int6re-ts of Ireland. The I •
. Irish Mem-
bers had been charged
with opposing all measures for the
improvement of I I
re an:l. There was a time when they
note utterly subservient m•when•
to the oeimstea, one their
names e • ie never heard ofthe lists
except in of the Go
ver erne.nt •
majorities • then
of the Gallant', ••• teneral's displeasure. Now that Irish
Membersnee, it province,
represented a nation, and not a part of a pitiful
' was widely
differeat. But be asked what

measures for the improvement of Ireland they hail op
posed ? Was it the introduction of the poor laws? • An.
were they such a panacea—were they found to work we!
in England ? No one would presume to say they had
Therefore Ireland should not be reproached with not takin
English poor laws, until they we. e so amended as to le
rendered worthy of example. The Hon. Member fo.
Liverpool had alsa sneered at the statements respecting th
amount of population in Ireland. The authority to which
they had referred were the official returns of 1821. An
taese returns, he could tell the Hon. Member, were below
t'ie real amount of population. In the county of May.
done, it was a web-known fact that the names of 33,001
persons more were written down as having got relief that
were numbered in the returns. Another subject invidious',
urged was, that Ireland did not pay her due proportion o
axation. This was a miserable fallacy.—(A liugh.) An.
now they refused Ireland the paltry boon of five additional
llemhe
rssa.y—t h( \°' n
t' Ireland
n.) B
ndadid
nott, he re
tipay hepreadtedue, itpr wasopor a
lacy toproportion
nfani
taxation ; those who fancied she did not, were totally un-
acquainted with the real condition of Ireland. In the first
place, the real amount of taxation paid by Ireland was
far greater than it appeared. The taxes arising from the
Customs were not placed to the credit of the Irish Trea-
:airy. Half a million of money wan paid as a dote or
tea, in London, as hich was not placed to the credit of th.
Irish Treasury—a great revenue was paid fee rum am'
wine in Liverpool. Then there was all the money drawl
from Ireland by the, absentee landlords, which was spent
in England, and paid taxes in England, without a single
sixpence being put to the credit of the Irish Treasury. Out
fourth of the surface of Ireland helanged to men whose
rents were punctually paid, although they never once set
foot in the country.—(oh, oh.) Ireland, therefore, beyond
any country on the face of the earth, needed protection,
when one-fourth of the revenue of the country did not gu
to the credit of the Irish Treasury, but was expended it
England. Taxation had in this country been compared to
the moisture which was taken indeed from the earth hy the
sun's heat, hut returned to it again in gentle arid refresh-
ing dew ; but the scorching suit passed over Ireland, di-day-
ing up all the moisture, but no refreshing dew visited in it.
return.—(Hear.) No Let them talk not of taxation-ite
Ireland until they understood the burthens that she bare.
In the appropriation of the additional numbers, he con-
tended that injustice had been done to Ireland. There
were thirty-two counties in Ireland, of which there were
only two with a population of less than 100,000. If, there-
fore, these Irish _counties had been English, they wool.:
have had thirty additional Members for Ireland. There were
twenty counties with a population of above 150,000.
If they were English, they would have two addition d
Members each ; and if the Union was not a name and a
mockery, they would have additional Members. There
were twelve counties in Leland that had a population above
200,000, four a population above 300,000, and one above
600,000, and yet not one additional Member was to be
given to them. This was his case for Ireland. In this
impartial proceeding was the real Anti-Union agitation,—
when they said we will keep all for England, and then, it
you please, you may come and ask us for more. Even the
paltry addition of five was considerate,' by some Hon. Mem-
bers too great. He hoped, however, the Ministry would
hare the firmness to persevere—the country was with them
—lreland was with them. The amendment of the Hon.
Member was got up, and the country would feel it, to ex-
cite English prejudices ; and Ireland would feel that it was
Anti-Irish, and that it was meant to excite a religious feud.
It was a base calumny to say that Catholic electors would
prefer a Catholic candidate to a Protestant of higher quali-
fications. He referred to the elution of Mr. Leader, who
was preferred by Catholic electors to Catholic candidates.
He called on any man to prove that this was not the fact.
Ile called on the Han. Member for Drogheda. who was
the chief calumniator of Ireland at present.—(Lond cries
of Order," and " Chair, chair.")
The SPEAKER explained to the Hon. -Member, that
Ids language and manner were both unjustifiable, and ex-
pressed his hope he would himself feel it.

Mr. O'CONNELL citafessed that in the heat of debate
he had been betrayed into expiessions wliich were not
Parliamentary ; he was sorry for it, and begged to retract
them. He contended, however, it was a gross misrepre-
sentation of the feeling of Ireland to say they were in-
fluenced by religious bigotry. Aed as to Catholic Mem-
bers, he would, in reply to the Hon. Member, say they
were as deserving of confidence and as independ, nt as any
Member in that House. They had won their civil rights,
and they would wear them thu,—by, on all occasions,
supporting the principles of civil and religious liberty.
He would now conic back to the motion, and had further
to remark, that there were fourteen towns in Ireland
which, had they been in England, would have received
the elective franchise. He declared, however, in conclu-
sion, he would support the Bill, because he conceived it
would he useful to the people of England, and he was in-
fluenced by no feeling from rivalry. He caked on the
House to reject the amendment—he. railed on the Gallant
Genetal himself to fling it to the winds. But, said the
Hon. and Learned Member, I am laughed have my
answer.

Mr. HUNT rose, and, after s-ine time, obtained a bean:
ing. He said he had been charged with advocating this
Bill as the fulcrum whereon to place his lever, to obtain
universal suffrage and vote by ballot; but the fact was,
the only objection he had to the Bill was, that it
excluded him, and those who acted with him, from the
hope of ever obtaining the objects they had in view.
For the Ministers had, from the first moment, de-
clared the Bill to be final, and as the people bad
In all parts of the kingdom petitioned for the Bill, the
whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill, it they, or ho for!
them—(A laugh)—should ask for more, the Government
would sty, " No, this is not fair ; the lairgain was, that
you should be satisfied with the measure we gave you,
and you shall have no more." The Hon. Member for
Kirkcudbright had told them, that in the reign of Edward
the Sixth, all persons paying scot and lot had the light of
voting. The meaning of scot is—(Tho Hon. Member
then proceeded to give a definition of "scot and lot,'
amidst shouts of laughter.) Now he, for one, if the
franchise was, with the protection of the vote by ballot,
given to all persons paying scot an I lot, 'would look for
no more.----(Laughter.) The Hun. Member then alluded
to his late journey to Manchester, and said he had re-
ceived a letter stating that hie answers were differently
understood by the people from what he had intended. But
when he stated that the flags of the several bodies of men
that came to meet him were inscribi d with " Annual
Parliaments".—" Vote by Ballot"—" Universal Suffrage"
—and " Nu Corn Laws"—and whatever words he might
have would he rict have been justified in describing
their feelings as he had done ? He opposed, or rather
exposed the Bill, bec;ause it did not come up !o any of the
points he had advocated. If he.had been a general Re-
former, and never expressed an opinion berme, he might
Ire called a captious man, if he were not satisfied with the
Bill ; but as it was, if he acted otherwise, he would
he false to the whole prof scions and principles of his '
life. It had been said to him by some Reformers; " Why
do you expose any part of the measure? Let us get this first
and then we will get the rest after. Rot he did not consi-
der he would be actin;; hones'tly if he had described the
measure as eine cf unmixed good, as the Hon. Member
for Waterford did the Cathoie.question, and arterivards
say give us the vote by ballot. He would %I:port the
measure all the way through. The ?.rilontiment of the
Gallant General appeared to h;,r.; so preposterous, that he
did not intend to hate yoieri at till upon it. He meant
to leave the Huse without dividiag on it, and would have
done zoi if he had not heard from the Goverwneot that
they considered it a matter of great imp rtance; and he
then resolved to give them hiS ;nimble support, as he
would, were it simply 1.,•.; the disfranchi-ement of one
rotten borough.-rt.:Loud cries of " Adjou- •?" and
Question.")

Sir R. PEEL said that he Jose for the purpose of
bringing this discussion to a conclusion, for it seemed to
him that the attention of the House was exhausted, and
that nothing further could be said upon the sathject—
(llwr, bear.)----Delay, too, had this disadvantage, that it
propagated itself ; and if it were re-carted to on this occa-
sion, would only be resorted to again. He had purposely
avoided rising immediate 4 after the speech of the Hon, and
Learned Illendaer for Waterford, „for he was afraid that he
might catch the contagion of the spirit of that speech.—
(He tr.)—lf he had caught it, he should only have done
so from the tempornry excitement of the debate, for he
had not been habituated, with respect to that lion. Mem-
ner's country, to entertain the feelings that had pervaded
that speech with respect to this country. 1;e bad a deeper
and a better reason for feeling a strong interest in the pros
perity of Ireland than existed VA t.4.c.nxect. circumstance of
the union of the two cotnat;;ica,. Six years of his early life had
neen passed in lyO,a.TA, and he entertained feelings of kind-
ness towards it, and an interest in its prosperity, which
he trusted would never expire. But where, Li) would
ask--where was the man who did net f.,:a that the inte-
rests of this part of the emeir,J Mere involved in those of
Ireland—(Hear, het,,,r)anli that any thing which im-
peded the proipeaity of Ireland must re-act upon England;
mil that he who was sordid and mean tn.ough to hope to
4ain an undivided advantage far this country, would hope
it in vain, for that one of 09 two countries could neve'
procure a bert4t nt the expense of the other.—(Cheers.)
While he listened to that speech, and to the sort of con-
cyst that had been excited with respect to Irish and English
interests, he could not but draw a miancholy foreboding
of what were likely to be the consequences of thtt subject

Airl "V.,3

1

. -..-.,
, -:;,1)
4-Aj
4
ler i'
.., it;•1 • : '
Tatter , las n4,,,lt's discussion: , *.tt'ai it.seceisark ~.,...,
hat thie question of ' Reflurrn should be mixed up who ' '..,-
hat of the relative proportions of the nutriber of Mem-,
purify England neces et -
mers? Why had the Government abandoned the Preseripa
towards Ireland ? Could
ice number, and proposed to establish a different proper •
might be their ' feelings, in
ion in the number oi Members from different parts of the
bitish empire? Why was it to be taken for grant .d in
be said in vindication
ilii.i:ectauiirn;v(uo)
rmil:ejßeeinseiatf,oia,
Reform
npahi::,.
however
attempteocevfoeiru o,sdtsrnothing
ni
tgyto
of that measure, and yet avoiding that other diffi..ii ty
which was not incidental to the question of Reform ?
Some the time of Charles li. there had not been any va-
u-i ution in the number of English representatives. Till this
11:11 hal been introduce.!, thera had not been a coniplaint
;lade on the subject of the relative number of Members
'or Eureland, Serelind, and Ireland. But this Bill, or if
it was rot carried, he feared even the bare proposition of
it wools! introduce these complaints; for the Bill was a
tratoitoua assumption of their existence. It was not
nerely in Ireland, but in every county and town in Eng.
land, that this Bill would be thus discussed ; and the
aeuiple would ask whether the principle upon which it af-
'iteted to go, had been properly applied. If, as the Hon.
Member supposed, the nurnb_T of Members was an indi-
•ation of the prosperity of the country, why was not Dug-
land entitled to ask for an increase in the number, to be
sent to Parliament ; why was not England entitled to ask
it-, not only for herself, with her increased manufacturing;
and cominerci il wealth, but with all her enormous colonies,
acquired since the last settlement of the number of repre-
sentatives, and containing one hundred millions of people !
At least England was as much entitled to make the de-
mand as either Scotland or Ireland. He regretted that
this subject had been introduced, that the Government had
proposed any departure from the proposition which the
law had established and custom sanctified ; and he feared
that what he said would be the consequence of the intro-
duction of such a topic. At the same time, if it was
shown that the basis of the Union was founded on a cal-
/dilation not fair, es betwu en 'ille"two countries, though
there was no other consideration for the change, he should
• be induced to consent to the Increase for Ireland with-
out a corresponding increase for England, though he
would not consent to the same increase in England,
without a similar increase for Ireland. He saw, how-
ever, no reason the adding to the number of the Mein-
br rs for Ireland. The Government had at one time said,
di it they did not consider the question of number to in-
volve the question of the Bill itself, but that if the sense
of that House was in favour of the maintenance of the
present number, they would Agree to the opinion, and
'ring in aBiI in accordance with it. Such at least had
be n his understanding of the Noble Lord's statement, end
he had asked the Noble Lord if that understanding was
right, and the Noble Lord answered in the affirmative.
Yet, after all this, the fate of the Bill was now nude to
depend on the princip'e ;of the measure now brought for-.
ward. He coot-mg:red himself hostile to the Bill, but he
exercised a fair hostility to it.—(Ch.ers.) He was pre-
pared to persevere in a fair and direct opposition to the
Bill —( Immense cheering ) There had been a talk of
conelaves.—(llear, hear.) There riot only had been a
talk al out it, but it had actually been a charge against
them, and a charge of enormoui delinquency, that the
party who opposed the Bill had met together to consider
the means of defeating it.—(Cheers.) This was a strange
charge, and if the present Ministry could direct the course
which their opponents should pursue, he would predict
that they would be a much more fortunate Ministry than
any that had preceded them—(Cheers and laughter)—but
if they could do so, it would he fatal to the free: discussions
of the House of Co ninons.—(Cheers.) But it had been
alga charged aguin•t them, that those who composed the
late Ministry had formed a "strange union" with those
who had voted against them Oa a particular question.
Wh„t was it a charge against them that they had united
with the Anti-Catholics ; and was it meant that they
should say to these gentlemen, there is an old grudge be-
tween us which nutat tet be kept alive.---<Hear, hear.)
Surely it was not meant that they should act on such rules
of conduct.—(hear, 'hear.) If, however, it was meant
fo r the
some pol-pose r
op tioi seermeare to
according whichwith they
his
that they should do so, he begged leave to ;siert his oppo-
sition to the principle, that men were not to unite toge-
ther
were opposed. It had been asked as by he had not brought
forward
ofp defeatinglan of Reforma measure
notions upon the subject.—(Hear.) He did not intro% I to
do any such thing—(Heat)—and for this among other
reasons, he should be taunted with framing a Bill
as a means, and with the view of getting baA.to office.—.
(Hear, hear.) lie assure I them most sincerely, that the
charge would be most unfounded ; for so much diet he de-•
precate these changes of Administration, and so highly in-
Cinivenient did te deem these changes, that he had stated
some time since there would be nothing more gratifying
to him than to I e able.to support the Ministry in some mo-
derate change of the existing system.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Lord opposite bad said that there were but two au-
thorities on this subject—Earl Grey and the Duke of WO-
lingtom Certainly, after that declaration, he ought to be
convinced that there was not an end of respect for the
At istocracy ; Lint he ought to be the more especially con-
vinced of that fact when he was further told that between
theta two authorities he hael nothing to s-house. But if it
were true there were but these two opinions, he might
even take that of Lord Grey; and he would ask what
;vas that Noble Lord's opinion at the end of last
year ? He was happy to take that oppot tunity of de-
claring that no one had a higher opinion of the Noble Lord
than himself, for none more sincerely esteemed that Noble
Lord's ability and integrity ; but what had that Noble
Lord said at the close of the last year? Why, , that the
measure of Reform was moderate—in fact, that it was
much more moderate than the present measure could pos-
sibly pretend to be. The Lard Chancellor, too, had then
held the saute language. Me did not quote these opinions
of those noble persons merely for the purpose of showing
their inconsistencies, as the Noble Lord opposite haul sierned
to imagine. His own speeches, indeed, had been quoted
in that manner, so that he seldom saw an Hon. Gentle-
man rising on the opposite side of the House to on
this question, but his mind vacillated between the vanity
of having his speeches quoted and the fear of being taunter'
with inconsistency iii what ha had written.—(Hear, and
'aughter.) . In fact, in most instances when Hon. Gen-
demen on the opposito.side rose to speak, he (Sir R. Peel)
saw two volumes of the Parliamentary Debates open, the
passages marked down, and the volumes were handed up
to the Hon. Member before he began.—(Laughter.) He
believed the speech he had delivered on the Catholic ques-
tion was the foundation of many remarks in speeches trade
in the course of the present debate. There was, however,
a great difference between the Catholic question and the
Reform Bill. In the former, the matter admitted of a
6nal settlement ; it was a restitution of the Constitution,
not a change of it; but the Reform Bill admitted of no
such settlement, and was a complete change of 'the Con-
stitution. - With respect, 'too, to the. forty-shilling free-
holders, of whom so much had been said, he must ob-
'wive that the most ample compensation bad been granted.
The forty-shilling Catholic freeholders were compensated
by their 'establishment upon a footing of equality with the
r .st of their fellow-citizens, while the Protestants received
by the change the assurance that they would not again be
overwhelmed by the influx of Catholic voters.—(Hear,
hear, no, no. )—But be repeated once more, that if he had
the same pro .f of necessity, the same proof that the change
of the nature of English voting was as requisite as the
change had been in Ireland, he should not hesitate to make
the sacrifice. As, however, he had strong doubts as to
the policy of the measure, lie could not consent to this
measure of confi-cation. lie did not see tither- that this
measure equally balanced the different interests it affected.
The Ministers proposed to give an undue proportion of
influence to the metrop ;his. By the present Bill they gave
no less than sixteen Members to London and its envirous.
[hese Members, who would always be on the spot, who
could always consult their constituents, and support them-
selves by their opinions, would exercise in that House a
power which no other sixteen Members in it could possess.
—(Hear, hear.)—This arrangement was et least mafor-
, runate. They adopted the pernicious example of France,
.teal gave to London that species of iuutluenese which was Si)
unjustly and perniciously exercised in Paris.--a(llear,
hear, hear.) Ile was opposed to the Bill on general prin-
ciples. One of these was the uniform right of voting
it attempted to establish. All Aristocratic- influence
...,
was attempted to he destroyed, while all Democratic
influence was carefully retained, The former object was
' l attained by the extinction of the small boroughs. The
latter was the whole aim and scope of the Bill. The
Noble Lord opposite had last night declared that he did not
vish to destroy the influence of the peerage---that, in fact,
he wised it to continue ; and yet it was a charge against
him (Sir Robert Peok4that be exercised an influence its
famworth. The onlY influence lie exercised was that
which the Nob'e Lord had wisberl to see still enjoyed by
i ~he tiDukes of Devonshire and B:2(lf ird.-..-( Hear, yes",
tear, from all sides.l Would the Noble Lord deny thehiLs.,..l,l
or would the Learned Lord Advocate, who
.nowt en.
ti„,,
.0 loudly, say.to whit lie, owed hi-, present seat in c„ the
!louse, but to the influence exercised by a a
.a.
g.ai
bear, hear,), H• . I
morough of Melton ?—(Hear,
b maintained ; not
o find that such an influence would.
Peer,
._
...e
_E_____,.,_
influence it was, and time influencenjm otP
without
Earl Firzwilliaurs who.conidron _ , exercise
1.1 Alaimo was How re-
mit, iolluence over
there . .
topreirenr, three years hence,
-.tined, hut whist was .