The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-26 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES,

On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, resolutions
were agreed to for granting the sum of 75,110/. for wages
to officers, ship-keepers, &c. on hoard vessels in ordinary ;
and the sum of 40,3651. 11s. Id. for the expenses of the
Admiralty-office.
On the resolution for granting the sum of 31,5291. for
the expenses of the Navy Pay-office, a short conversation
took place, in which Mr. HumE, Sir JOSEPH YORKE, and
Mr. P. THOMSON participated, the sum was reduced to
29,9297., and the resolution was agreed to.
On theresolution fur granting the sum of 20,276/. for
the expenses of the scientific branch,
Mr. WARBURTON recommended that vessels, with
chronometers, should be sent for the purpose of ascertain-
ing the exact position of the various headlands, &c. on the
face of the globe, in order to give greater security to the
operations of commerce.
Sir J. YORKE was of opinion that enough was already
done on the subject.
. _ . . . . .

Sir J. GRAHAM stated that four Government sur-
veys were at present going on in various parts of the
world, besides that of the coast of Great Britain.
The resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution proposed was, that 82,2491. 10s.
should be granted to his Majesty's yar Is at home.
Mr. HUME observed, that seven dock-yards were more
than it was necessary to maintain.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the late Administration was dis-
posed to reduce the number, and that the present Govern-
ment concurred in that disposition.
Mr. HUME complained that twenty clerks were main-
tained at Chatham, at an expence of 4,1001. a year—that
thirty-one were maintained at Portsmouth, at an expense
of 6,426/. a year, and that thirty clerks were maintained
at Plymouth, at 5,950!. a year. Now this expenditure he
considered too great, and begged to call the attention of the
first Lord of the Admiralty to it. But bad as the system
was in the dock-yards at home, in the dock-yards abroad it
was still worse. In private yards two clerks were found
sufficient when there were three or four hundred workmen,
whereas, in foreign dock-yards, there were .21,000/. paid
to clerks, when the whole expence for workmen was
only 38,000!.
Sir J. GRAHAM admitted that the expenditure was
great, but thought it wrong to attempt at present any
sweeping change.
Sir B. MARTIN confirmed the statement of the Right
Hon. Baronet, and said it was a common complaint, that
there was not a sufficient number of clerks to get through
the business in proper time. The vote was then agreed to.
On the motion of Sir J. GRAHAM, a vote of 603,000/.
was agreed to, for the pay o f 32,000 men, for one year, at
295. per month. The Right Hon. Baronet stated that
this sum was 35. per month less than was taken last year
fur the same purpose.
UNAUTHORISED APPLICATION OF SUPPLIES.

On the question that the Chairman leave the chair,
Sir BYAM MARTIN said he wished to call the atten-
tion of the Committee to a mutter involving the credit of
the King's service. He did not intend to trouble the
House for a long time on the subject, but he thought the
matter was of sufficient importance to call on him to bring
it under their consideration. It had been publicly asserted,
and the assertion had been studiously put abroad, that the
late Board of Admiralty, and himself among the number,
had made an improper use of the public money. A more
slanderous falsehood had never been uttered. He now
called on the Right Hon. Baronet, the Firit Lord of the
Admiralty, to state whether, in the late Board of Admi-
ralty, the Navy Pay-office, or the Victualling Board, one
shilling, or even one farthing, had ever been applied other-
wise than for the public service ? He called upon the
Right Hon. Baronet to state, with that frankness and can.
dour which always distinguished him, his opinion on this
subject, formed as that opinion was upon an examination
made by the Right Hon. Baronet himself. He was sure
that a feeling of regard for the credit of the King's service
and for the honour of the individuals concerned, some of
whom now served under the Right Hon. Baronet, would
induce him to give an explicit answer to the question, and
to say whether they bad ever improperly expended the
public money. It was a matter of importance to all the
parties concerned, and he asked not only for himself, but
for the late Chief Lord of the Admiralty, and for all the
person+ connected with all the Naval departments, from
the highest officer down to the meanest messenger or ser-
vant in them, whether by any one of these persons, any
one single farthing of public money had ever been expended
except in the public service ?
Sir J. GRAHAM did not hesitate at once to answer the
question. The Hon. Baronet asked whether he (Sir J.
Graham) was of opinion, after the investigation of the
subject that had been carried on under his direction,
' whether in the Admiralty, the Navy Board, of which the
Hon. Baronet was at the head, and the Victualling Office,
any portion of the money voted by that House for the
public service had been applied to other uses ? He an-
swered at once, that decidedly no money had been so ap-
propriated by the members of the different departments
referred to. The Hon. Baronet then went a step further,
and asked hint whether ke thought any of the public
money had been improperly expended by these Boards ?
With that frankness and candour for which the Hon.
Baronet had the kindness to give him credit, he would
state—he was bound to state—his real opinion, which was,
that he did think an improper use had been made'of the
money, inasmuch as some of the sums voted by that House,
to be applied to particular purposes, bad been applied to
purposes of an entirely different kind. He thought that
such an application of the public money opened a door to
great abuses, and that if great abuses had not been com-
mitted, at least, the system was liable to produce them.
He, having discovered this practice, had thought it his
duty to bring the matter under the notice of that House.
He did not mean to inculpate any one. He repeated, that
these moneys had not been applied to the use of any one
individual, that he bad not accused any one of malversa-
tion, but of misappropriation of these moneys, proceed-
ing from an error of judgment—(Hear, hear, hear).—
and from the usages of ancient practices, which had
long continued unchecked, but which became daily more
and more dangerous, from the excess to which these applica-
tions might be carried. Certainly, without any pretence for
saying there bad been any malversation, there had been an
extensive misappropriation of the public money ; he had,
therefore, thought it his duty to put a check upon the
practice at present, and to take ample precaution against

its recurrence.—(Hear, hear.) If he bad not decidly en'
tertained the opinion he had just expressed, it would have
been hardly possible that be, in his situation, could have,
hot to answer the Hon. Baronet in his situation, who was
still one of his colleaeues iu the Navy Department, and who
was at this moment still holding the office of Comptroller
of the Navy.
Sir B. MARTIN admitted fully the truth of what had
b.en stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, as to the exPenT
diture of the public money on objects for which it had not
specificallyas
abbneaeddnit)lezeanit tt ee
pe uras
etv(t)oimcteedhoa;f,b,
tuilt)(eihsgee
rbovveiitcs,,ehi wished
oo
rtkoeaeo
pbl
osenrgonat
itinh
ea tptati
number of men than had been voted. It illia)daalforebateite:enf
the practice to take the sums stated in the estimate a'
g„ruo,s,.stisot,inaont,h, isitnpoorami.ltdobfeGapri:lni,e,ailblel,e to all the purpose'
the Navy Department. That :practice had received thel
of Welbore Ellis ; and he would venotfurFeox;oofsarsY'r(ltritl3ll;'and'o
what they might, the practice must still continue, so le
1- that House voted such ample sums as would be e'°';,
to meet all exigencies. He had proofs in his he
establish the truth of his opinion on that point, hot
would not trouble the House with them at that mouter's,
He repeated, that though a different practice might ben,
adopted, it could not long continue. The House reig,t
make the Appropriation Act one day, and a gale then e t
tnicht blow it into atoms. Ile would only add, that pal
had been done by the late First Lord of the Adtrsiralt)''
been done by all preceding First Lords of the Man° '
whether Whig or Tory. • nt
Sir J. GRAIIAM thought this was not a converlie d
opportunity for discussion upon the measures he had adlte
with reference to this subject—(llear, bear)—and it
hardly decorous for him to enter into the discussion tv.,
the Gallant Admiral, who certainly had pro luced the had
thority of great names, but who in his statement .
omitted one most important feature of the case, °li he'
that with respect to this subject there bad been a enniP f
change of the law in the year 1798, when a new 11$1°4:,
the Appropriation Act was adopted, so that all the Pe:"(i.
tice and all the authorities of previous Lords of the 70,t
miralty went for nothing.—(Hear.) He did admit, t t
with respect to the repair of ships an estimate was still P 0
an estimate, and might fail in being correct ; but he c° it
tended, that when, through particular circumstances',
did fail in correctness, it was due to the Commons of 1;t41,7)
sod that there should he no concealment—( Hear,
—that nothing should be kept back, but that, foresee tb;i4
the necessity of making a heavier charge than before, t yt
necessity should be frankly and truly stated. Theys'tifat
make the hest of the matter, but he repeated, ose
it was due to the Commons of England to let them "pd
the exact appropriation of the money they had voted' aye
that hail not been the practice for the last four or
0,
years. Ile haul before mentioned the unauthorised Oro
diture of public money at Weovil, and at other placel4:tt,
he would now t eier to two other cases of the sames-0,
that he had recently discovered. The first of these ni.
the erection of the mills at Deptford, which were e?'";
nected with the manufactures going on in the visas
alltned
yards there. The erection of these mills was conate°4.,'ss
in 1826, and was finished in 1827, and the coat;eo
76,2371. The whole sum voted by Parliament for t",os,
buildings was B,oool.—(Hear, hear.) The other cv,
tens that of the Medical Hospital at Chatham, whit That
likewise cotnmenesd in 1826 and finished in 1827. A for
erection cost 61,6591., and only 7,0001. had been vnte".oo
it.—(lleac, heir.) He was prepared at the proper °to,
to go into the discussion of this subject upon all thee at,
connected with it ; and when he did so—he was sure ttiat;
if that House was not lost to all sense of what was dntt
their own dignity—he was sure they would take care not
such practices as those to which he had referred should
be repeated.—(Hear, hear.)
f the
Sir G. CLERK said it hail always been the wish 0),
Lords of the Admiralty so to frame the estimates that it ire
should not be likely to exceed the sums that niV" la
wanted. It was impossible to check the expenditurefot,
the manner supposed by the Right lion. Baronet,.oo.,
after it bad been ordered, the details of that exPeP4dAltel'
never came again under the notice of the Board of .'''.;io;
ralty, nor had they till very lately the means of kneoet
how the money had been expended. Ships Were
rally three years on a foreign station; they were the7,ettp
tiered home, and others were sent out to relieve tal'4o
Between the time of the home ships getting out an
ships on the foreign station coming home, a double re'
pence of wages arose, and as the number of ships tile'"
lieved was not the same in every year, it became °rook'
sable always to be aware of the exact amount that ve not
be required for that branch of the service. Ile teas for
a little astonished when he heard the Hon. Member rite
Middlesex and the Queen's County express their aur!,
of
at the discovery that the money voted for the purelnretas
timber should have been applied to the payment of Wsplisf
That application took place in 1827, and under Pecoter
circumstances. The expenses of that year were gt get
than had been anticipated. A number of men were,
in ships to the Tagus ; anti as it was impossible t°
the coasts of Kent and Sussex unprotected, nunll'ited
men were employed, and the amount of money reclotV
for wages was greater than had been anticipated. VP„„ per,
year 1829, the rate of wages bail been fixed at 2/-
month. The amount too was increased by the le", floe
time our squadron was obliged to remain abroad. Tb3othe
not the amount of wages of particular men, but it Sy f the
average. In the year 1829, however, on account of
deficiency of the sum voted for wages in the preceding
.e far
the Government were cotnpelled to apply to the fi•
a vote, calculated at 2/. 12s. per month. He tied
Clerk) then stated that on a former occasion
ciency of wages was made up from the surplus, atla°'
from the sale of stores. The recent surprise of tujefrea/
Members was therefore not easily to be aecounte° "f the
What was the result of the increase of the estimate,: ail'
wages for 1829? Why, this ; that in that year
ference between the estimate and the expenditur iere
amounted to twenty-five pounds. In 1827 thereoooi,
33,000 employed, and the wages amounted to 19d tY,
more than the awn voted for them. The aggregate C.
excess of the expenditure over the estimate in that and
two following years, owing to the peculiar eircutp,:ig 11'(
he had stated, amounted to 404,000/. ; but, (10r1 vesrkl',
same period, the money expended in timber Iv° at I'm
1,000th,000/. less than had been voted. So thatlrblia
end e country lost nothing through the system tem Ad'
the Right Hon. Baronet objected. Besides this loe:,
miralty had nothing to do with the payment °4. •e
which were under the immediate contreul 0f t"e
Board. With respect to the direction of the e%Peripoaty
upon public works connected with the Victuallingooneit
he believed it would be found that, having surPlut: Obleed,
in their bands, they expended that money on asmen•ePtio°•
the Admiralty and that House had successively B'°_
After any works had received the sanction of tbropr
rally and of Parliament, it was left to the partieto oec'of
patment to which they related to carry them e,tiol)ey
Lion, and on that department depended the-
00g tich
how soon the works were to be finished, or it° -as n).tre.
were to be delayed. The Government, anxinuel" JO' be
as possible to keep down the annual expenditur.6olo!•ore
that no works which were not absolutely necessary"
there{ for
pressed forward ; and some public works hadiitarefoa
gone on slowly, in order that the eXnell'iroald ore
the particular year might be kept down. It seed ern'
quently be consistent with good economy to prh°, ooved,,,
rapidly with these works; but the wish of t tioalaievith
ment, he load before stated, restrained the 00e
pirtment from proceeding with them eery raP tpt
respect to the works at Weovil, he would just °',e,auo lora
circumstance. When it was stated to the ;:e•iit be ,he
the new buildings required at that place fro here'
nished with the money that would be obtait-ipgs
sale of the materials of the old and useless burl
t' on be
p
authority was given for the department top gated
these works. The whole of the exenditure when Of
necessary was 50,000!. ; and the old buildingst_t erThad
produced nearly that sum. He found thabat etnlioto
80,000/. had been paid for the dwarf wall:
tand
been paid since the Right Hon. Baronet lout wieltef
claim used
cffiee.theSmureetliyt,
of if
consistency,theßightheought Hon. Barone have rep
to pay the money which had been expended °t:Paeatall the
C
dertaken without authority of Parliament.! art'
He was prepared to admit, that that eaut!: the fief: in'
Right lion. Baronet wished to introduce tin jo so"; _ad•
tnent with which he was connected, tniglit'noard ° that
stances, be beneficial. As far as the late
. 00°,04
miralty was concerned, he could assure tn.o
otept aerublio
nothing was more desired than that the st,elb the P per-
should be instituted into the manner in vibie ;dee fore13 for
money had been expended. He should old
sonal obligation to any lion. Member whoa
0561
papers that would lead to a full inquiry' of the
Laird ALTHORP suggested that the
tihwu;ubjectrtunity
which had been fixed for entering
sider that sufficient.—(Hear.)
oCfivniilaLkiisntg. s
his extphleanHaitiino.nß,
pareornheatrshuatphdoebna..tdo_:lsej:::to:lneeloaro:tintoe:
his
ds that
bhrao‘TuinghgleitbCuepHen:rienalsiSnolrinirkoeNdw,.itthewnalsefot
/11)11S odd
titi°ll
do adjourn until Monday. fPe or
F TII
louse at't
dy ea
Lord ADJOURNMENTAI,'I RPmov moved tob
t o b Mr.e p reel:pile' Ed
soanid
the
oat
subject there woasf auvetrotrwbo„
sod I.

Itp
4,e(1
Purp,se
lewd7ll air,
'ern wo
AI,
14
Prop
)s It era,
'lon(l4.ly.

not decidly en'
it would have
on, could have
ation, who was
ment, and who
of Comptroller

h of what had
to the exPen"
hie') it bad not
serve, that that
ong tame past,
np a greater
had also been
!stintate as the
:he purposes of
d the
(
of North, and
) 83y that,
it2sos
)ntinue, t
?
d be soffioc?,.
is poso(ssioit
e
point, hi t
that women,
;night bends
ht
Houset
gale the ne%
who
add, that haa
kdrniraltY,
the Admiralt,'

oio'S• • itit
i"

f ptit"-
_dv
_ogril
'"tuld

hil'Prtiled that the House should sit to-morrow fur the
tse of receiving them.' Not o.")
bad ALTHORP adverted—(`
to then labours the Speaker
alre.oy undergone, and contended that this addition to
would be most unreastniable.--(Hear, lieu%)
t 4,1.14. HUME added that be had felt it his duty to make
proposition.
mlaywas ordered that the House should adjourn until
oti•

OUTFIT FOR THE QUEEN.
H°ll the motion (mae y Lord ATORP) that the
°u se resolve itself intod ab CommitteeL onH the Civil List,
84 T. FREEMANTLE said that be wished to call the
tendon of the House to a subject immediately connected
, •
th.th the Civil List. It had been the original intention of
;late Alinisters to propose the grant of fifty thousand
Lutills to her present Majesty for her outfit ; but it
43 tn it in a communication on the subject with the
t,nug, his 'Majesty had expressed his gracious determine-
e• Ile (Sir
!Irt,'"4 out to accept that or any other sum or such
hatp a ur-
T. F.) could not think itf right t the
ease should acquiesce in any such arrangement ; analthe
4'htry was not come to such a pass that it was not able
t, take her Majesty the same allowance that had b 'en
;,at other to other Queens. Since the date when it was said
)4t his Majesty had refused a sum for the outfit of the
i4'ien, it had been stated, on competent authority, that
j,t'revenue had increased, so that there could be no ob-
10°o to the grant on the ground of financial difficulty.
Was, however, of opinion, tha.t if Ministers were
ti;lged to borrow the money, they ought to press the
l'il,Jeerlet upon his Majesty. The sum of 50,000/ had been
tt t° Queen Charlotte—one hundred thousand pounds
qe late Queen, and a very large sum to the Princess
a,eQd 'LIM and it was not fit that must,laj should be
in a situation where she incur debts. In
t„,,,"e months the House might be called upon to make
the deficiencies it bad itself occasioned by ill-judged
it,rwrn'po)'. He threw out these remarks for the ennui-
t ation of the House, and, if he were supported, he was
1(1Y to take its sense upon the question. He begged to
pc,4 the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether be was dis-
rtgu,orider the altered circumstances, to alter his views
rding the vote for the outfit of the Queen ?
l,ii °4l ALTIIORP observed, that the sum proposed to
I,fdaiesty ha I been 50,0001., but even 25,0001. had
di a refused, with that consideration and generosity which
p3i°guished the present King, and endeared him to all
ait!Thjects.—(Hear.)—Her Majesty wished that no pro-
(1.0t410 of the kind should be made to the House, and
.he
tok,r,4s) did not, therefore, feel himself justified in deviat-
"a'rorn the course he had already adopted.—(Cheers.)
14' Meateen. (whose name we could not learn) ex-
'.4ett his opinion that it ill became the representatives
tUadgreat nation not to make a grant which lie was per-
I Was necessary almost for the personal comfort of
t,lti4ajsty. It was impossible to go too far in suppli-
the;ig his Majesty to accept the grant.
HUNT thought that the King had done himself
hasghost honour in the course he had taken, and he
hbr'ure that he had raised himself in the opinion and es-
ta.,4\hed himself in the affections of his people.—(Hear,
could not conceive why this question was ntt
titjwed, unless the Hon. Members who revived it we re
114,1..°14 of withdrawing from the King and Queen some
lita,ll of the just popularity they had acquired.—(Hear,
k 'J "--If the aristocracy was disposed to give the Queen
IIU4,Ne sum, he should of course not object—(Loud
th,,g I'u,ter)--but he never would consent that the money
"d be taken from the pockets of the people.
wh.l:lr• LITTLETON was sure that this question, on
altiteh there was a strong feeling, would not be made a
te 13: matter. The country felt the deepest gratitude
rained Majesty for the admirable character she had main-
,
6qlt and he agreed that it did nut become the repre-
tnlt'lves of a great, and he would say an opulent coun-
.,) t,') refuse 25,0001. ; particularly as lie thought that
111 a jests must have already incurred debts to that
°aOt.
HUME could not refrain from expressing his utter
tftPtise at the introduction of this subject.—(Hear.
rt roust say that he thought it looked very like bidding
k
if
lithe
Royal favour—(Cheers, and cries of " No") as
lid e Hon. Members had been set on.—(No, no.)—He
it, 5;4 assert that it was so, but that that it looked like
and t( no.)—Surely lie might be i allowed to think,
tiny state what he thought.—(Hear, hear.)—The ques.-
k tot „,"eroed brought forward only to embarrass the King s
6tere, (No, no, and cheers.)—lf not, why was it
•
I.;introduced when the Chancellor of the Exchequer
04ght forward the Civil List without any such item.
Iteetwha,_'"_TY that the Hon. aMember for Staffordshire bad
„. tui_Tt to such an attempt.—(Hear.)
},e.;r• 0 CONNELL fully concurred with the Hon. Mem-
ter r Middlesex, and most decidedly objected to the grant
one shilling'4%l More of the public money than even the
I‘..administration thought necessary.
CURTEIS expressed his utter astonishment at the
itiltosition of forcing public money upon their Majesties ;
name of his constituents and of the country at
ft-he protested against such an outrageous proposition.
beer.,)—He had, at the same moment, in his hand
41 Iltion from between 400 and 500 persons, complain-
ti,',ltut the bitterest distress. Surely the present was a
'tt !viten Ministers ought to be backed whenever they
Inclined to make reductions, and he would do his
ttii-"‘t Out only to back them but to urge them. The
t‘,44a,try was
indebted to his Majesty for making the sa-
illliaj'thatid he was confident that Ministers knew too well
Itioe 'Y owed to the country to listen to such a propo-
Th,s-„( Hear, hear.)
littd .'rtaxert then left the Chair, and the House re-
Itself into a
ZaerCommittee on the
~ ra
ALTHORP— ClBefore hVIL LIST.
e 4 e entered on the subject of
"1 ::',114ti(),1 with which lie should conclude, he could not
earrq.rerting briefly to the discussion which bad just oc-
' Its Majesty, in refusing a sum for the outfit of
teat :eri, had done an act worthy of himself, anti consis-
trotain" all the rest of his conduct : it was an act which
Rratitntejn+fear him to his people, and secure their lasting
y+allh • r ) To the Kin only, he begged
t 7, rd meedrril of this transaction was due.—(Cheers. (Cheers.)
ii,t the 4lthorp) wished to state plainly and distinctly,.
4hiaid People owed the sacrifice to the generosity and
eraten
, etribet. f e,s of his Majesty. In answer to the Hon..
A-PO4 this r Sussex, he was bound to say, that no praise
'lfni • I' Inthject was due either to the last or to thepresent
itt°ll,4ltru.
On the general question of the Civil Lilt
I n „ he necessary for him to detain the House at
ther-gfi"' before he submitted his resolution. He would
tee t 0 rst instance, recall the recollection of the Commit
tte alterations he had already proposed in the plan of
thlterairil List for the present reign. The first of these
Itleirtnon', was carrying to a much greater extent than
l'l;ee,ll,,tl.le withdrawing from the Civil List of all ex-
' al ITU' immediately applicable to the expences of the
Lkat.
theY dignity of the Throne. for-
'4tlitur_
oes f
Civil List had been voted for the civil ex-
b_,' f the country ; but by degrees various charges
ifVo taken from it, and since Mr. Burke 's Bill in
;41.4att:If_i'lla portions of the regular expenditure of the
:111jA"Itad been excluded. It had appeared to him
gin h°rp) that none of the regular expenses be-
' 'ele,r4", the Government of the State ought to be
litatlyeu in the Civil List, and that all should be con-
AM "der the controul of Parliament. He bad
i„lteelYthste4..ted many reasons for this opinion, and, as he be-
i,„ z Met with the entire concurrence of the Commit-
;l•44fould not recall them. The other alteration was
taatint n° of the amount of pensions to 75,0001. The
orrnerl
It, Was , 7 upon th English, Iris, and Scotch
1, Stied less than 154,e 000/. The lateh Government
'teChilte,_ to reduce these to 140,000/., and the present
th" Proposed to bring them all into one List, and to
it t 1 e Inmunt to 75,0001. The Committee was aware
o,tt:e Ci
°fth vil List was given in lieu of the hereditary re-
,e
te,tte,. rown, and it was a recommendation of the
14t,heree,et;a
:to the report, that in giving a sum in lieu of
rY revenues of the Crown, it was necessary
expenselt it was prob ible the Crown would have
itotl4,
jealled upon to make from its hereditary revenues,
,Ipnetiatrnoderate degree, be provided for. One of
it C
tirowri e! was the grant of pensions to those to whom
1, 4 , Wished to show favour. On that ground alone,
44 0 othe, it
Shoulti , Was necessary that. some. amount of pen-
Nees efloi "e Placed upon the Civil List, and different
1 t,..ng so had been suggested. It had been pro-
, Ipt‘dditioii" hest mode of accomplishing the object, that
kitittata, thshoold he made to the Privy Purse, in order
oferoWn to give pensions without the advice
Op„ hit wanthe confidential servants of the Crown.—
NoNtit,ti fle had objected ; he considered it a most
future Proposition, and, if adopted, it might
ti,lag to great inconveniences, if not to great evils.
41.'7 ex,e7,o essential to Governnsent as unity of force
kiai'ifreN,„„"htlt'vde authority ; there had been. times . when
Ult, such a not acted in cordiality with its Ministers;
le Power were left to the Crown, it might, in
0, ,!tri to the greatest possible mischief. The
'4"t, 'bie . gut to be given under the advice of the re-
eeri47...vants of the eCrowne.r The Sovereign ought
Nalthe d•g to the Constitution, to do any thing but
h 'reetion of •
high] his responsible Ministers, so that it
4 Y Unconstitutional to adopt any such course
!,,(I,el, tit eco.narnended. These were the chief points
"tTth,%e ci: List, as originally proposed, differed
tltt,ttl!rettnatt Idst as he had brought it forward on behalf
tOai
pLiMinisters. The whole subject had been
""'"t Committee, to which the powers were

not given of examining witnesses and calling for papers.
His Lordship apprehended that the reason for not giving
those papers was, that the House did not think it fit that
the household expenses of his Majesty should be investi-
gated in detail ; it was not considered consistent with the
respect due to the King that such an inquiry should be
instituted, inasmuch as it was applying to his Majesty
too much the character of an individual. But although
these powers had not been given, questions were asked and
inquiries were instituted to ascertain the extent. The
question put could only lie answered by himself (Lord Al-
thorp) and he was responsible for the extent to which the
investigation was allowed to go. He had therefore re-
plied to the limit that he thought ought to be observed ;
and the responsibility he took upon himself was to say,
that although there was no objection to the Committee
making inquiries into that part of the Civil List expendi-
ture which applied to the officers o` State and great officers
of the Household, there was an objection to the investiga-
tion being extended to the expenditure of the Royal House-
hold. The Committee accordingly had examined into the
different offices of the Household in the different classes as
proposed by Ministers. The first class related to the
establishment of her Majesty and the Privy Purse of the
Queen. It was impossible to examine this division in
detail ; but when it was found that 60,0001. a year• bad
been granted for so long.a period ; that 50,000/. a year
had been given in the reign of George 11. ; that the Queen
of George 111., after the second year of her marriage, was
allowed 50,0007., and latterly 58,000/. ; the Committee
had decided that the sum of 110,0001. was not too much
at the present moment, being 60,0001. for the Privy
Purse, and 50,000/. for the Queen. In the second class
the examination went into the different offices of the House-
hold, and here some reductions bad been thought proper
by the Committee. The proposition was for the grant of
1:30,3001., and the Committee reported that 119,3141 10s.
would be sufficient—making a diminution of
10,955/. 10s. It was proposed that a few offices should
be reduced. The salary of the Lord Chamberlain was to
be lowered from 3,055/. to 2,000/. ; and reductions of
various amounts were to be made in the amounts annually
given to the Vice-Chamberlain, the Groom of the Stole,
the Lords and Grooms of the Bed-chamber, the Captain
and Band of Gentlemen Pensioners, the Captain and
Yeomen of the Guard, four physicians, two surgeons, and
the Usher of the Black Rod ; those reductions
amounted, in the whole, to 7,426/. In the Lord Steward's
department the reductions only amounted to 1,4941. 10s.,
including the Lord Steward, the Treasurer of the House-
hold, the Comptroller of the Household, and the Secretary
to the Lord Steward. In the department of the Master
of the Horse, the reductions recommended amounted to
2,035/., including the salary of the Master of the Horse,
which was to be lowered from 3,3501. to 2,5001. a year,
with other diminutions in payments to the Chief Equerry,
the four Equerries, four Pages of Honour, the Veterinary
Surgeon, and time Equerry of the Crown Stables. The
third class related to the expenses of the King's Household
—the money expended in the purchase of different neces-
saries for his Majesty's establishments. The Committee,
upon the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr.Goulburn), as well as upon his own (Lord Althorp's)
on the closest examination that could be made, did not
think it possible for the King to live at his present rate,
and in his present manner, keeping up that hospitality in
which his Majesty wished to indulge, and in which every
man in the kingdom was glad that he should indulge—
(Hear, hear)—at a less expense than the sum of 171,500/.
per annum, which had been originally proposed. The
Committee thought that the sum could not be reduced
without danger, or, indeed, almost a certainty, that the
Civil List would not be adequate, and must incur debts.
In the fourth class, the reduction recommended only
amounted to 574/, 5001. being taken from the head of
Royal bounty and special service, and 74/. paid to two
Professors of the Universities which sums bad been trans-
ferred to a different account. As to the fifth class, the
Committee had agreed with him (Lord Althorp) that the
reduction in the amount of pensions from 141,000/. to
75,000/. would be sufficient, and they had, there-
fore, recommended that it should be made. The sum
total, therefore, that, whereas the Civil List, the pre-
sent Ministers had proposed, by command of the King,
amounted to 510,0001.—that recommended by the Com-
mittee was 498,470/. 10s. The diminution was, in fact,
so trifling, that to snake it could be of no service to the
country. Though the Committee recommended the
change set forth in their report, yet he felt bound to say,
upon his responsibility, that such a reduction he could not
safely propose. The sum he would move was 510,000/.,
and upon that be should appeal to the House, confident
that they could not refuse what was necessary to the com-
fort and dignity of the Crown, and would not deem it ex-
pedient to make any reduction, when the Committee, by
only recommending so small a diminution, implied that
they thought time whole sum very little indeed beyond
what the necessity of the case required. He concluded
by moving, " That in order to maintain the state anti
dignity of the Crown, and the expenses of his Majesty's
Household, there he granted to his Majesty a nett yearly
revenue of 510,0001., chargeable upon the Consolidated
Fund, during the life of his Majesty, and commencing
from the death of the late King."

Mr. LIUME was perfectly ready to concur in any thing
that might conduce to the comfort of his Majesty, or the
state and dignity of the Crown ; but he could not concur
with the Noble Lord in speaking lightly of such a sum as
10 or 12,0001. The sum, considered by itself, was not very
great, but he valued it as involving a principle ; and
he the more especially felt called upon to notice it
as a member of the Committee: in that capacity he felt
the necessity of endeavouring to place the conduct of the
Committee in a just light before the House and the
country. There was not a member of that Committee
who was not ready to concede every thing that could
conduce to the comfort of his Majesty, or the dignity
of the Crown ; but a line must be drawn somewhere ;
and he would say that all should be granted that
was necessary, and nothing more. The amount in dispute
was of little comparative importance ; the principle
would be as much compromised in a sum of 101. as in a
matter of infinitely greater amount. Again, he begged to
say that he thought the King had a right to be treated
liberally by the Commons of England. He had manifested
deep sympathy with the feelings of the people, and it be-
came them to prove themselves not insensible to the wishes
and feelings of the Sovereign ; but he did not think the
Noble Lord warranted in calling upon the House to
act in direct contravention of the report of the com-
mittee in question. He should now trouble the
House with a few remarks upon the several items, and
which would go to make up the proposed Civil List. In
the first place, he unhesitatingly assented to a sum of
110,000/. as necessary to satisfy the fair and reasonable
wants of his Majesty, considering the elevated situation
which he held, and the demands constantly made upon
him. In the 4th class a sum of 130,0001. was proposed
to be reduced by 11,0001. by diminutions in the expences
in the offices of Lord Chamberlain, Lord Steward,
and Master of the Horse. It must be evident to the
House, that in reducing the costs of those offices they did
not, in the slightest degree, trench upon the comforts of
the Sovereign. It was practically, and in effect, a reduc-
tion of 11,000/. upon 52,119/. The payment to the Lord
Steward had, heretofore, been 2,436/. ; the Committee
recommended that it should be reduced to 2,0001., the
Treasurer and Comptroller of the Household from 900/.
to 500/. each. The Lord Chamberlain from 3,085/. to
2,0001., for they considered that he was a high officer,
and one to whom the honour of filling such an office was
abundant remuneration ; hence it was thought, that to al-
low a sufficient sum for defraying the expenses to which
he might be put in the fulfilment of his duties, would be
all that that situation required. He thought upon equally
strong, though upon dissimilar grounds, the House would
approve of their having proposed to reduce the Groom of
the Stole to 1,5001., the Vice-Chamberlain from 900/.
to 7001., the Master of the Horse from 3,300/. to 2,500/.,
and the Chief Equerry from 1,0001. to 750/. They
bad, as already said, proposed a reduction of 11,0001.
on 52,000/, which was a reduction of 20 per cent. upon
the large salaries of the higher officers, and this they
did with the full understanding that the higher officers
would effect the necessary reduction upon the menial ser-
vants in their respective departments. He had further to
call the attention of the House to another proposed reduc-
tion in favour of offices to be dispensed with altogether, to
the extent of 8,229/. There was also 1,3411, the super-
annuations of the servants of his late 'Majesty. All of
them making a total of 130,300/. Once more he begged
the House to bear in mind that those proposed alterations
only went to affect the higher salaries. Antecedently to
the appointment of the Committee, whose report was then
under the consideration of the House, the Ministers of the
Crown said that they were not competent to decide upon
their own salaries; they therefore wished to refer the
matter to a Committee, they undertaking to proceed with
reference to their own subordinate:, upon the same prin-
ciple which the Committee might adopt towards them :
but, as matters then stood, there was scarcely a hope that
any such course would be pursued, for Ministers now
seemed to repudiate altogether the labours of the Com-
mittee. The Right Hon. Gentleman below him, who
composed the last Government, refused all inquiry, and
upon that they resolved to stand or fall. They fell
by it, and the Noble Lord and his friends rose upon
their fall, and upon an implied compact to pursue
an opposite course; and then when they got a Com-
mittee, and that that Committee made a clear and dis-

tinct report, not insisting upon any great reduction either,
the Ministers pay not the slightest regard or attention to a
single recommendation of the Committee. There was a
sum of 171,0001. allowed for the Royal table expences,
and the payment of tradesmen connected with the Royal
Household. On that subject he must he permitted to ob-
serve that no evidence was laid before them ; it was im-
possible, therefore, for them to become acquainted with
the details of those expences ; they were merely told that
such had been the amount expended during the preceding
ttn years, and they acceded to the opinion that it could
not be reduces!. He did not, he confessed, think it ne-
cessary or fitting to urge any objection to that decision,
considering the manner in which they were at that time
placed with reference to his present Majesty; and conei-
(tering the great boon which he had bestowed upon his
people, and which now, happily, was near its consumma-
tion. As regarded that sum of 171,0001., though he
concurred in that, it by no means followed that he was to
agree to so large a sum for secret service money as be-
tween forty and fifty thousand pounds, to be placed at the
disposal of his Majesty. A large sum for secret service
was annually placed at the disposal of the Minister, and
he confessed that he saw no occasion for increasing it so
much as proposed to do, by placing so large a sum at the
disposal of the Sovereign. The next topic to which he
came was the sum to be expended in charities. The Arch-
hiehop of York was the Almoner of the King for the pur-
poses of those charitie,o; and the fact was, that his Ma •
iesty knew nothing wliatever of the disposal of the funds;
end, without giving any opinion whatever upon the merits
of the charities, he had no difficulty in saying that they
ought to form no part of the Civil List; that was the
fourth class, but it was one which ought to he struck out
altogether. The fifth class was the pensions, and they
were, though nominally granted by the Sovereign, really
granted by the Minister. The report of the Committee
set out with saying, that it appeared to them that it
was expedient that the Civil List should be applied
solely to such expences as affected the dignity and state
of the Crown, and the proper maintenance of their Ma-
jesty's Household. The House would now judge how far
the Noble Lord paid respect to the recommendations
of the Committee; in fact, there appeared, on the con-
trary, a decided determination to follow an opposite
course. On those several topics be felt it unnecessary to
say any more. He went upon the broad principle that
nothing should be included in the Civil List except that
which had been recommended by the Committee ; for any
further increase of its capacity only tended to increase the
patronage of Ministers, without adding to the comforts or
dignity of the Crown. There was one subject to which
he could not help alluding before he sat down. There
were, during the late reign, a number of pensions granted ;
those of course could only be granted for the life of the
late King. At his death they necessarily became lapsed,
and it therefore was the privilege, as it was the duty of
Parliament, to see which of those pensions were granted
for real service, and which without any services at all, and
to distinguish and decide. In the last ten years, a sum of
1,937,836/. was paid for pensions, and of that 1,900,0001.
was not for public service. At present the Pension List
amounted to 150,0001. ; but it was said that no reduction
could be made in that which would prove of any advantage
to the community worth speaking of. He thought it
might lie reduced one half. Much complaint was made
against the tax upon steam navigation ; only 75,0001. was
expected to accrue frcm it. Let the Ministers reduce only
the Pension List one half, and they might then dispense
with the tax upon steam-navigation. He concluded by
moving as an amendment, that the sum proposed be re-
duced to 423,4701. 10s. This, lie observed, would be in
round numbers taking away 75,0001. from the Pension
List, together with those sums from the other department!,
which were recommended by the Committee.
Sir JOSEPH YORKE protested against the principle
that the Sovereign should be told that the Commons would
treat him liberally, because the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex thought proper to treat him as a good boy, who was to
be rewarded for supposed propriety of conduct. He pro•
tested altogether against such a mode of treating such a sub-
ject. The House were entitled to express an opinion upon
the conduct of the King, or to put the granting of the Ci-
vil List upon any such footing. After observing upon the
inconsistency of the Administration not being governed by
the report of their own Committee, and that upon whose
appointment they came into office, he expressed his determi-
nation to vote in favour of the report of the Committee,
and against the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER said, that though lie
had no desire to touch any thing connected with the com-
fort and dignity of the Crown, he was surprised that the
recommendation of the Committee had not been attended
to. If that was not to be the case, the time of the Com-
mittee would have been entirely wasted and thrown away.
He thought, however, that they could not, on principle,
object to the pensions now existing, as it was understood
that they had been granted for the lives of the holders ;
but at the same time he had no objection to see them
removed from the Civil List.--(" That's all!" from
Mr. Hume.)
Mr. PHILLPOTTS said, that no Minister, however
honest, could give full economy to the country without en-
dangering those interests on which that Administration
must depend. The Pension List, above all, was within
that principle. In his opinion, they had been granted on
a bad system, and were open to many abuses. Those
miserable pittances, that were granted to widows and
orphans when they really wanted it, were kept by them
even after they married the richest men of the empire ; and
he, therefore, could not say that he envied them their feel-
ings of degradation. The subsequent remarks of the Hon.
Gentleman were listened to with great dissatisfaction by
the House, and so interrupted by coughing and cries of
question, that it was impossible to catch their purport.
He concluded by moving, as an amendment, " That all
the pensions heretofore charged on the Civil List should be
transferred to the Consolidated Fund, and that 10,0001.
a year be granted to the Privy Purse, in lieu of the former
power of the Crown."
Mr. BANKES said, that he could never consent to the
placing 10,000/. a year, beyond the controul of Parlia-
ment, for the granting of pensions. With respect to the
vote proposed by Government, he was extremely sorry
that it did not correspond with the recommendation of the
Committee. It was true that the reduction proposed by
the Committee was small in amount, hut, though small in
amount, it was not small in principle. He concluded lay
saying, upon those grounds he would support the reduction.
Lord ALTHORP explained.
Mr. GOULBURN supported the proposition of the
Noble Lord, and submitted that now, when the Crown
had surrendered so much of its hereditary revenues—
(Hear)—was not the time to make increased deductions
from the expenditure of the Household.—(Hear.)

Mr. GORDON did not think that the fact of his Ma-
jesty's Government conceding to the unanimous voice of
the nation on the great question of Reform, furnihhed any
reason wherefore they should be supported in resistance to
a measure of retrenchment.

Mr. A. BARING, considering the high and extensive
popularity of the Sovereign, could not vote for a proposi-
tion by which his dignity and personal comfort might be
lessened.

An Hon. MEMBER. (whose name we did not learn,
with great energy and good humour, amidst great inter-
ruption, coughing, and occasional laughter), was under-
stood to support the proposition of the Noble Lord
(Althorp.)
Mr. HUNT also made some observations, of we
chiefly collected his recommendation to those Members
who had severe colds, that they would use his lozenges ;
but their coughs (he said) were so inveterate, that they
would quite exhaust his box.—(Laughter.) We under-
stood him to regret that thc Administration were opposed
to the retrenchment recommended by the Committee, and
tendered indispensable by the circumstances of the country
and of the Government.

Colonel DAVIES supported the reduction.
Sir G. WARRENDER explained, that he did not think
the suns granted to his Majesty too much, but too little.
Mr. ROBERT PALMER wad of opinion that the
Committee had sat for very little purpose. The Hon.
Member, with a view of securing unanimity, suggested
that the sum of 11,500/. should be transferred to the third
class of the Civil List.
Mr. STANLEY, in reply to Mr. Hunt, stated that
this was a monarchy. God forbid that ever the time
should come when the Members of that House should
argue the question of a republic or a monarchy, on the
narrow grounds of pounds, shillings, and pence. A mo-
narchy might have advantages' which amply compen-
sated its expence. The present Government came into
office on the question of referring the Civil List to
a Committee. They were not to refer to the Com-
mittee the Civil List of their predecessors, but a
Civil List of their own. They submitted such a
Civil List to that Committee, withdrawing from
it a large sum, and causing that to be voted annually.
There was a great difference in principle between the
present and the former Government; and if the present
Government had not made a reduction of one shilling, it
bad made a great improvement. The Government had
saved something, however, by a contingent reduction on
pensions. That amounted to 70,000/. The Government
submitted a Civil List modified to the Committee. The
Committee, after a strict examination, could only snake a
reduction of 12,0001. So poor a modification on such a
sum would be an insult to the Ki❑g if carried into effect.
—(No, no.)--The House was called on to grant a gro,s.

sum of 510,0001., anti they would consult neither the
dignity of the Crown, nor the House, if they refused to
grant this sum to the King. The 12,0001. ►eight be
thrown into the King's power to meet any contingent ex-
pen ces. ( Hear. )
Mr. GOULBURN had formerly given his support to
the motion of the Noble Lord, because he wished that the
House should be unanimous on the subject. If he now
departed from that line of conduct, it was because he could
not allow the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to say,
that the. Noble Lord had made a great saving, and that he
(Mr. Goulburn) had come down and proposed a Civil List
of one million, and that the Noble Lord proposed one of
only 510,0001.—(No, no.) As he found it was admitted
that there was no such saving, he would only say, that he
believed that when the question was fully examined, it
would be found that his plan would produce a greater sav-
ing to the country than the plan of the Noble Lord.
Mr. SPRING RICE contended, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had fallen into two mistakes. The proposition
of the present Government was not the same as that pro-
posed by the late Government'. He had voted against the
Civil List proposed by the late Government, on the ground
that as large a sue► of the public money as possible should
he voted by the House of Commons, instead of being given
the Crown for life. The vote in the hands of the
Chairman did not commit the House to vote the salaries of
the great officers. He hoped that -vote would be unani-
mously agreed to. He, at least, was ready to vote that
sum, because his present Majesty had received a less in-
c•otne from, and given up a greater revenue to, his people
than any Monarch since the revolution.—(Question.)
An HON. MEmulta attempted to address the House, but
was not heard.

Colonel DAVIES explained that the Secretary for Ire-
land had not converted him, and he would not consent to
the Buns of 12,0001. being voted to be given to any of the
great officers of State.
Mr. WARBURTON had been authorised by Sir Henry
Parnell to say that he had no hand in drawing up the
r,port of the Committee.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the whole proceeding
was a piece of mystification. Denying the value of the
I Lbours of the Committee was insulting the Members of it.
Ile objected to the vote, and declared that if there was a
division, he would vote against the Minister.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM explained. He thought debt
was most to be avoided, of all things, in the Civil List,
and he should support the vote.

Colonel SIBTHORPE said the conduct of the Minis-
ters on the Civil List was another abandonment of pi in-
ciples, like that of the Budget. He could not vote far the
sum unless he had some guarantee for its appropriation.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said it was not a public or a
party question, but a question between the Crown giving
up revenue and the nation. The return of what money
had been obtained from the hereditary revenue would show
what the Crown had given up.

After a few words from kr. H. SUMNER, in favour
of Mr. Hume's amendment,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the House could not
treat a Sovereign, like his present Majesty, who was dis-
posed to make such large and liberal sacrifices to his people,
in the same manner as they might be disposed to deal with
one who was more extravagant in his demands; and he
therefore thought it would be but Justice to leave the
12,0001. as a contingent sum to meet any extraordinary
expences which might be required.
Sir M. RIDLEY having said a few words against the
proposition for reducing the amount,
Mr. GORDON said he knew no distinction between
Sovereigns when the burthens of the people were in
question, and he should support the amendment.
Mr. HUME, amid loud calls of question, then rose,
and said that he would not persist in dividing the House on
that occasion, as be saw they were nut prepared for i; but
that he should certainly take the sense of the House on
bringing up the report.
A part of the resolutions were then agreed to; but
Mr. Hume having objected to the Committee's pledging
itself on the subject of the pensions, the House returned,
and the report on those resolutions which had been agreed
to was ordered to be received on Monday.
The Tobacco (Ireland) Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed on the 12th of April
The Annual Indemnity Bill was brought in, reed a first
time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday.