The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

IrvIPER I

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 11.
Their Lordsitipl met at half-past Four o'clock.
_ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Ai sent was this atternoon given by Com-
mission to the Exchequer-bills Bill, the Outdoor
Paupers Bill, the Distraining for Rates Bill, the Reco-
very of Wages (Ireland) Bill, the Protection of Justices
(Ireland) Bill, the Spirits (Ireland) Bill, the Petty Ses-
sions Bill, the Prisoners Removal (Ireland) Bill, the
Blackburn gate: -vorks Bill, and several other private
Bills. The Lords Commissioners were the Lord Chan-
cellor, the Marquis of Clanricarde, and the Earl of
Shaftesbury.

PRIVILEGE.
The Earl of GALLOWAY complained again that his
speeches were incorrectly reported.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL p.lso complained that
while the speeches of some of the Members of their
Lordships' House were reported at great length his were
❑ever reported fully.
Earl GREY corrected a mistake which had occurred
in the report of his speech on the navigation. laws in
reference to Canada; with that exception his speeches
had been very correctly reported.
PETITIONS.
The Bishop of CASHEL presented a petition, pray-
ing for a grant in favour of Church educatio❑ in Ireland.
The Earl of RODEN presented petitions with a simi-
lar prayer ; also petitions praying for the release of the
Rev. J. Shore.
Lord STANLEY presented several petitions against
the repeal of the navigation-laws ; also several petitions
from unions in Ireland against the rate in aid.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented several peti-
tions against the repeal of the navigation laws.
The Earl of LUC AN presented a petition against the
rate in aid.
OCCUPATION OF ROME.
Lord BEAUMONT gave notice of questions to the
Government as to the communications which might
have taken place from France, Austria, or Naples, on
the subject of the tripartite invasion of the Roman terri-
tory, and whether the British Government was concerned,
directly or indirectly, in this invasion of the territory of
a Power which was not at war with either of the Pcwers.
PETITIONS.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from
Liverpool, praying for further inquiry into the operation
of the law of bankruptcy before any legislative mea-
sure on the subject be adopted.
Ordered to be referred to the Committee.
NAVIGATION-LA W S.
The NOBLE LORD also gave notice that ho should, in
the Committee on the Navigation Bill, move the omis-
sion of the reciprocity clauses.
PETITIONS.

The Earl of YARBOROUGH. presented several pe-
itions from agricultural districts praying for protection.
The Earl of DENBIGH presented several petitions in
favour of the Bill for the protection of women.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented petitions
from several congregations of the Church of England
and of Dissenters, with a similar prayer.
HARRIS'S LIGHTNING CONDUCTORS.
The Earl of WILTON moved for certain returns re-
lating to her Majesty's ships fitted up with Sir W. Snow
Harris's lightning conductors, and also of the number of
ships struck by lightning during a certain period.
The Earl of MINTO having entered into explana-
tions on the subject,
Atter a few words from the Earl of ST. GERMANS,
the motion was understood to be agreed to.
EXTRA-PAROCHIAL PAUPERS.
Viscount HEREFORD then rose to ask the question
of which be had given notice on the subject of the
deficiency of the means adopted for affording relief to
extra-parochial paupers. He wished to know whether
it was the intention of the Government to introduce any
measure on this subject.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, who replied to the
question, was so completely inaudible in the gallery,
that not a syllable of his answer could be caught.
PETITIONS.

The Bishop of OXFORD presented several petitions
in favour of the Bill for the better protection of women.
RATE IN AID (IRELAND) BILL.
The Earl of CARLISLE, in rising to move the se-
cond reading of this Bill, said, if when he had the ho-
nour of addressing the House on a previous occasion, he
expressed regret that in doing so he would have to op-
pose the opinions and feelings of many of their Lord-
ships, he ought, perhaps, to express greater disappoint-
ment on the present occasion, because the Bill, of which
he had to move the second reading, had already been
denounced and precondemned by a Committee of their
Lordships' House.—(Hear, bear.) But he had to state
that her Majesty'a Ministers were as sensible as any
Member of that House, or of the other House of Par-
liament, or of any of the witnesses examined before
the Committee of either House, of the objections, many
of them valid ones, which might be urged to the pre-
sent measure, and which, were it not for the circum-
stances of the case with which they had to deal, might
have been found insuperable. They had, however, to
deal with those circumstances, and the responsibility
which Government bad taken on itself, and which, in
spite of opposition, it meant to adhere to, was to devise
the means which, in their opinion, appeared best for
meeting an emergency most serious and appalling, but
which, arguing from all former experience, they
hoped would be but temporary. And capable of being
overcome. ge would therefore endeavour, as briefly as
possible, to stilt() the circumstances which bad given rise
to the measure; they all knew, that for the last three
years there had been a failure of the usual crops which
formed a principal portion of the food of that country.
The state of things which that gave rise to was en-
deavoured, in the first instance, to be met by two succes-
sive Governments, but especially by the present Glie, by
a system of relief works, which, though well intended,
had turned out to be cumbrous and ill-working, and had
ultimately broken down.—(Hear, hear.) The next
attempt made was a gratuitous distribution of relief by
food alone, which was carried on on a gigantic 8C116...
and no less tan three millions of persons were in the
receipt of relief at one Lime. That, however, turned
out not to be calculated to meet the state of distress, ant
accordingly, in Oceober, 1848, that wholesale system
of relief was brought to a close, and some relief had
been administered where it was found nee.essary through
the agency of the various poor-law unieus. Many
of the unions, twenty-one especially, were however
unable to give this relief. These were supplied from the
public fund, and from a Treasury minute, be found that
for the year ending October, 1848, the sues contributed
to those from the British Association amounted to
236,0001., and that with other aid, 367,0001. had been
expended on those unions. In Connaught the sum col-
lected in the name of the poor-rate last year only
amounted to 182,0001., while the expenses of the unions
had been 399,0001., thus leaving a balance of 216,0001.
to be made up, It was gratifying to find that not less
than 200,000 individuals had been saved from starvation
by the relief which had been given. He was aware that
Government had been exposed to censure from the
manner they had acted. It was not for him to say
whether that censure was deserved or not; but he
did know that, among all the measures Government had
recourse to, in reference to Ireland, one leading determi-
mination had invariably been kept in view by Govern-
ment, and had pervaded all their measures and prnceed-
ing, and that was that, so far as they could help
it,, no
one should be allowed to die of starvation . 'they
were aware that when for three successive yeas,
the usual crops in Ireland bad, more or less,
failed, that it was impossible for any Govern-
ment to prevent some, perhaps, from that appal-
ling death ; and in ordinary times it was not the
province of Government to provide for the daily sub-
sistence of the people; but under the existing circum-
stances in Ireland, seeing no prospect of the people being
able to provide food, and no prospect of relief but from
without, they were determined that food should be
given, and life saved. Accordingly, at the commence-
ment of the present session, an addition of 50,000/. to the
sum previously given from the Exchequer, was proposed
to be voted for the relief of the distress. That proposi-
tion, when submitted to Parliament, met with consider-
able opposition, some Irish Members declaring that the
property of Ireland aught to support the poverty of Ire-
ladd, while other Members, not Irish Members, but who
took a great interest in Irish subjects, contended that
in various parishes in England, in Norfolk for instance,
the poor-rate amounted to 16s. 6d. in the pound—that
those grants for the relief of Irish distress only tended to
perpetuate the misery and poverty of Ireland, and that
Ireland being exempt from the property-tax and Ex-
cise duties, and many other imposts, she ought to raise
funds for the support of her own poor. That was
the general feeling of all parties in the House of Com-
mons when the grant was proposed. He had said that
at the commencement of the session Government was
prepared to follow out the course they had previously
pursued in giving relief to Ireland, by applying to Par-
liament for aid, from time to time, on the understand-
ing that such should be administered under the strictest
economy till better days should arise, and better modes
of giving relief should be devised. In that course, how-
ever, Government could not obtain the acquiescence of
Parliament. It might be said that Government had
altered their opinion, because they were not prepared to
abide the consequences of a deficit. But when it was
considered that within the last three years there had
been no less than 10,095,0001. given from the Exchequer
for the relief of Irish distress, 318,000/. of which, in
justice to Ireland, he felt bound to say had been repaid,
and he had no doubt that in the course of time the
whole sum stipulated for—the one-half—would be
repaid also—when they remembered also that
at a time of distress even in this country,
a million and a half of money had been raised,
300,0001. of it being raised in Ireland—had been raised
by the people of this country for the relief of that dis-
tress, it did occur to the Government that after the sug-
gestions so ably and forcibly argued, that no further
grant should be given—and that previous to asking fur-
ther aid from the Exchequer they should first ascertain
whether a contribution for the relief of Irish distress
could not be obtained from Ireland itself. That was
thought not so unreasonable a proposition but that it
might be had recourse it. The question then was, in
what form was that contribution to be made? A rate in
aid appeared not to be a novelty in Ireland; for at a
meeting of delegates from the different boards of
guardians in Ireland, held in Dublin in Ootober, 1848,
it was suggested, coupled with a curtailment of the area
of taxation so tar as to make it coterminous with pro•
perty. But not only had it been suggested there, but a
rate in aid for local distress was suggested by the Noble
Lord opposite (Stanley) on the first night of the cession,
so that both the Noble Lord and the Irish boards of
guardians had suggested such a measure.
The ',Earl of RODEN—To what unions did those
guardians belong?
The Earl of CARLISLE—There were delegates from
all the unions of Ireland; at all events the meeting
was
open to such. There were also analogue cases botl? in
Scotland and England, when circumstances arose similar
'to those which prevailed in Ireland. It was provided
by the 43d of Elizabeth that if the justices of the peace