The Sun.
London, England, 1807-03-12 00:00:00

EVIDENCE.

,
Lord Melville was the first witness who was
called, and was exaniined by Sir Home Popham.
Q. Will your Lordship have the goodness to re-
late all the.circumstances in your recolleaion respea-
ing the conversation .that I held with Mr. Pitt and
your Lordstip,, colleaively or individually, as re-
bt.ing to myself, on the subj& of the Expedition to
South America .•

[After an understanding that no question touCh-
. log State secrets should be put, the Noble Lord
replied].:
A. Soon after I came to the Head of the Board
of Admiralty, I had occaslon.to learn, that the Ad_
ministration -prededing that of which I had formed
a part, had communication withGeneral.Mirauda
relatiVe .to some. projects he entertained relative to
South Ainerlea. •--I.did'not,,immediately give much
attention to that subject, betatise, not being then at
' war' With Spain, it did riot 'occur to me how, con-
sistently With that situation, the Government of this
country could tale any active part'. iu thesunnier'
of 11164,. and particularly towards the autumn of
that year, Iliad little doubtin my awn mind, from
the iAcial information-I had occasion to receive at
the Board of Admiralty, and from.th Communicar-;
tion with the Members of other Public Departments,
I had little dOubt that such war must soon, take
place. -I therefore thought it my duty to see Sir
Evari.Nepeari and Sir Home Popham, and others,
who,
•I had reason to think, were acquainted with
the particularS which had passed.under former Ad-
ministrations, to inform myself more immediately
relative to the"yiews and projects of General , •
randa. I likeveisabachnore than one confidential
conversation with General Miranda- myself.- The
result was an opinion, that although it- might, not
be wise .or expedieat —or, perhaps, within the means
of this country at that time to commit themselves
fully to the extent of this project, it was of the ut-
most-importance to the interests of this country, so
far to watch the progress of his operations,. and to
make use of them, it' they could-be made subser-
ricat-tothe purpose of opening the South American -
Market to the trade and mantifactureS of thiS .6pon-7
try ; and,• upon that principle. I-had, as on every
other. pablic ''subject, almost daily communication,
both in town and at WiMbledon; with 2,1 r. Pitt, at
the timeef the Gaverpment with which.l was con-
versant. The subject was:more familiar to toy con-
.sideration, becpuSe•tbr many :years past, particularly .
in t7ofi,.lhad o'ccatieoto,consider it maturely, with
a view of preparing,ln concert withtheAhen Board
of. dmiralty, operations against South America on..
a very extensive scale; I was at that time Secretary.
of State- fin' the: NY4pepartinent. In consequence of
the conversation i had with Mr. Pitt, as already trien-,
Cloned., about the month.Of Oct. or ol,.if3o4,ol`abf ut
the titrie the wArbroke OpeyvitS,Spoin , 1, des: red Sir H.
Popliarit:::(o.aitetrd,: in _orderthat he be at hatd.
to attend-Mr:rtiq.and thyseltatany_tia-we should
have occasion, to talk' Vitit him, audjthink,•a6ont,
the saM,: time' he was appointed to a slot,, t:?, Diadem,
r believe.--mere Lutd. , read a letter,. ad..
dreSsed liy his'L,orNaip to.SirJicimc Pophiiin, during,:llls
attendance in town.]:-.,84%140M:e o RIATI came
to town, and I had many cortununic,ltions.with
in consequence of, the various communications he ..
- had:with Pi tt
.5 and these ..commoniciiliookc.Naz7..
firmed during the remaining .;peried.l remained
the AFlzoinils*.,,„
ti*di-4tply after 1 st'of,flpril, had many
interviews.. with .Mr. Pitt -after tint period; and iri
deed during 'the Of whole. 'period his. life
. .• ,
final separation at Bath the beginning of the vqar-:
• _
1.806 but from the time I ceased to-be_his.colleague
tit office,. L made it- .an invariable rule to ',.'1);(1 all
•
cbtiversation with him upon suhjeas of -a public or
-confidential naiure so that',-..from-my own-know-
ledge, I can speak to nothing after the.stli.of
1805. It peciirs to. me. at this n-Lotwit as. 'AWL
improbablf, that thecoaa,of.SontjtAmerica, in the
.vicinity,of Trinidad, fitasprohitcyl3.7.:at otie. I.4llook-
ed upon a probable -stieoe of operations:..
Q. Upon heqringo?ihe capture Buenos-Ayres,
did your Lordship-COnsider .if" au. acquisition mate- .
rially advancing the great object which Mr. Pitt and
your Lordship had in view with respect to South
America ?—A.- No doubt, BUenos Ayres appeared
to me •as highly beneficial for the object I had al-
ready had in view•;- but I am by no means certain.
if I may not have taken that impression. from the
circumstance of Buenos Ayres having been one of
the specific objects in view when the Armament was,
in contemplation in
_1796.

a. Can you recollect of my •having been con-
fidentially 'employed on various objects, both in- the
latesome of the Members of
the
Lordship and Lord Grenville ?
,_.,Aanldb present.
iiin!t by yourtriss,:tnterel.%l'yart, by
to answer. that general qustion,
I shall have no hesitation to answer. I certainly
.know that Sir H. Popham wa employed confider-,
tially by the Membeis .of the Cabinet at the time
alluded to. -

Q. Is it in your Lordship's recolle&ion, that in
the execution of,:the confidential services,
circumstances arose.. Which-Were. not at the niocont, -
of Ivri‘,ing• pros for,; nor judged
could they.Vci...-:.*But 'I, under those Fir.Cuilistances,
exdrcised.very -enlarb-recVdisdretion to attain the 'g,teat
object UpOn v/vhiTcli:t;yiigs-emplOyed. I pzirticularly.
alltic;e to one- of •riV(.lnisiOns to the Court,of St..
retel'sburgh ,
-Mr. Jer•vis:ohjeae.d•to the question as irrelevant to ,
the Cvdbied
• A. state, ihat
,Ishould •
barriisscd thbe em
i4'-'iineistion rcat general .
i answer, out I -art), afraid i'thay be led.to,discioAures.
that may be itnproper.' - •
Lora Rlelville ai,siverecl I, atli ready to statelte,..
neraily, 'that an all -oecasi-ns wben.he Nyas coati- .
iiis:c6odu4receiyed!the appro..
• batibn ofGoveninient in the execution of it 5 biatr
trust, I will not be called upon to. enter ,into ,nbre
;.particular ext).anations.
••••• Pee-;icienti Sir. E. • Gmyer.—Does your. Lor4ihip.,,
recolleti '•at• what time it was that Sir Hone Pop-
ham was appointed to the Diadem .I ca mot
recollea. 'the preciFe except lrotn,tl:e
I have already mentioned, lot Deceinbcx,
as stated therein. • •. • .

Q. boes .yonr Lou)hiff reco'lea: whether the
NegoCiation this.GUre'rn.roleni
the Court' of,Spain fur tt amicable adjusttn.ii..t- of
the'dilferenc.es between her•anci this County hal
not terminated ufisticeessi:olly 'before . that HA. 1
cannot froin'iny memory fix the precise ti.ne., riuc
I. make Liu douL it vas a .short time after the da

.. . ,
of this- totter, as i remember the accbunts came te-
! Gently before the meeting of Parliament. •
Q. Was Sir Home - Popham .appointed to the
Diadem with a view,ofearryingon-oll'ensive opera-
tions. against Spanish -South Ankerica; and what part
of it in ,particular?—A. I belieVe Si-y H. Popham
was -appointed to that. ship with the vieui •of co-
operating with General kiranda ...to the extent of
taking adv:-,ntage of any of lii'sprOceedings, witiich
might tend to 'our attaining a positibu on the Con-,
rinent of South Atnericaeravourable- to the trade of
this Country, but I do
.liót ritcOlea any specific
place being fixed upon. 4 ..
Q. Your Lordship has Saki yoniiad.many cpnfi-
.
.•-
denttal conversations with respect: to General Mi-
rancia's plans and views, and, 111atthe,resultiof thes6 .
,_ it
tonversatiotii was,. ail opiriloU thit.t2. 4tlppv i . might
• -oat be wise .or essential, orp'etha'pse,-t;irh,in the means
-of this Conntrx,..at that I..irriq to_cpmtnittheniselve
ttilly to the extent or iiis..pOjeds, it. was., of- the
-utmost importan.ce .to ihe ititereso.2f.this,o4ntry,
far to watch the -progre4s,of.his operations, AS to.
make use of them--if 'they- :eould,%bei.made, stfesey-
Vient to the purpose of opening. the' Seutli'Atpel•
rican market to theirade and maifigadares of this
Country: was that the objed: your Lordship had
in view at that'titne when you alpointed:Sirllelme
Popham to the Diadem ; and dicl.your EtirdshiP con-
tinue to entertain the sarno' objeas, to the- same ex-
tent only, during tbe• remainder of the time you
presided at the Ael tniral ty- ?—.A..lt was with the view
ineatianed i .I i
n the question,' that.,
,PpOinted "Sir
• -Home PoPham• tontine -Piadeni, and I .4 .not
recollea that during •t ire'-period afterwards- while
.. •
I...,AFtpained at
,the Adinirity: Qth'ernrnent ' had
lint cantemplation-ani 'plan upon a• More expanded
1 bcalp."'':Was ..S;r- T-Iol.ne• :I"t•ip-liari; iiT P-Point-ed 'by .yont
tirithip to any 7 'coMiniinci.- sufficient to authorise
Ift4t,l,attack any part ofSoutb America ?--A. cr- •
talnly not,- ite the, proper sense of the orders. - .
' • Q. Are there ally other notes or official doCuments
...
iii the-record Sot the Ministry, to your Lordship's
yetolfecleon, Stating-the obje& for which Sir Home,
Popham-was' appointed to- the Diadem -s—A., I-.
l• -cannot speak with absolute certainty ; but -I think-
.
• Ctt' Your .- Lordship -said, . speaking of. Buenos
Attu; -that-: was, -one.Tof: . the specific objets in
--
view, when the armament was incontemplation. in
1.796.: had your Lordship thatplace in yOur view at
any._ time Since the brealiing qut , of the Spanish war.,
up to the year your Lordship retired front the Ad.
miralt4s,.b.--e4, .A - 4 si;:pq Aso iii every con Versa t 101 l
I had Witl4,-...Mis:PittsOrt:thesiable6; I n)Oke no, doubt'
Buenos Ayres was often the subject of discusSien.
hiy reasons' for;'lleing.• 'so' confide% in that opinion
is, thatjn all Cid cOnV4ersatibri I ever gave, to the
Itubjed of Buenos Ayres, Whether theatrackwFs:to
be made on a smaller Or larger •-scale;-- I-always con-
,
sidered the Rio de. la -Plata as a.most important posi-
tion to the interests. of Great Britain on that siile of
Buenos Ayres. - • -
-...
. Q. I will take the: liberty to ask your -Lordship;
Whether it was decided ,npon. by his Altjestyl4 late
:Ministers to attack Buenos Ay-res ? and whether Sir
. 'home Popham was apptiinted to any command for
that purpose ? —4. I do. not believe thatliis Mpjes-
ty's Government cellvairc.•ly did ever come to any•
'resol4tion of making an attack on Iluericil Ayres
and. it.will be'recolle;:tcd that I have already statedi
that it was only a few, nroittlf in file year 1805 thOt
I reruained in office. '
....,,_:.-..*'!l:
.
PresidetiGL•Whe'n' Si'r^ frotte "Popham was. em-
Pl9Yeckby,his Majesty's Ministers, and having used
his disciZtiOn; •.
and --his conduit Veen. appr9vedof,
was ale employed as aeaptainin his4lajesty's.NaVy,
or on Service"of-rt natu'ro-clifti-na -and different from
the **service ?—A. He came under the latter
description;tx-rept' one eircumstalicein the Red Sea,
whiell-Marbe•excered. : :- - • ---• 2 -.- • '-- •
Q: `Does yonr,Lordship readlie,it.:4im.aing me to
attend at Wimbledon; knlIC Alifie• itOhe month of
O&ober, -1804,- when--there . was-nobody:. ,e.(e,,sent
• but 3.•blii-L6i-gslliptilTlVllf:'-filt",4.etrer;rrlt gitti-e-
neral Miranda's vjewie and- discuss-the obied
which lie was aiixiious. to PitlEtheatteUi O
ion i s to.
lljos-..
tern ?---.:\:. Ifecolied purfeEtly the conversation hair--
, ing.talien.pface; but I cannot
~cliarri-e my' imemory.
with- the . particular month.. 1... resibilta - ilerfealy
havi pg. received 'such • a-filetnbir; .heing very- glad to
• know the -ilia extent of Geti'er4l. Miranda's. views,!:;tut certainly-avoided-commitiinitiiy. he ii.or the Bri-
tish Government of England; beyond the obje& I
have already' stated, I 'mean the market of - South
,Aterica, upon Nvhich subject I have certainly enter-
tained a rnost anxiods \:risli. -al-MOSt from the'hbur I
• had occasiots to continue in the public cOnCerlis more
• immediately under my consideration ; and.that anx-
,, .iety certainly. has never dithinishei, hut much equenc ,
in-
creased, in consequence of all the events which for
some years past have taken place in the East Indies,
' the West Indies, and above all on the continent of
. Europe, • . . ,
•. •.Q. In consequence of your, Lordship's great pies-
, .: sure of business; it, is pos ible you .may not recol-
.,, ',lelLi the probable circumstances relating t 9 this ob.'
.... , ,
.4.se well as myself; Who had nothing else to re-.
..,tn.ember,..but you may possibly recoiled that you de.
.„ iieclme to draw up the memoir in question ?--A .
• .'l.c64ta.t'l . ' yeti you. so to do • and I thought I.
. ...I.___y ernD,Q-- - .
‘l.ladso ea myself before. i •
,
, • (--1. Does your Lordship recollect,' that When you
' - ' . 4 did rile the honour to appoint me to the Diadem, it
\vas My sole view to brio • elocution, either
g into
some part, or
.the whole of the' Plan submitted- tO your consideration in the above received memo-
. randum '?—A. I do recoiled, that whim Sir H. Pop-
- liall .
po •
, 1 was appointed to the Diadem the objed then
in ,w , ,
‘ ot_c'... sf, was to co-operate with the General, in such
ti,"l_ Letts' Mentioned in • • the memoir as. might be
....11:![4youdueive to' the' interests of Great Britain.
. , tention of :•your Lordship recolledwitether the in-
aarranced, -.."1. Ployi_ng me on this Subjed, was so far
. .... .
.rpt el
.w141)-(ii:tkrtng under your couteinphltion the
. nfcliscretion
I,o4)l,4)).l):ll„iira.sitieto, he employed, anti, the limits .
.J.-7ecl, Or-...t9 it, suceessfdl' in the first- oh-
,
to me most sA .. .op. whatever other Inight appear.'
..by.op_e, mit theu'iTt'rk.lll advancing the general good,
cuterpriies of oui- • ts' of South Americ.a for the '
, .I•merchants ?—A. II know certain-.
.I- that the 1., ge"ectaztil_o_obji.eel'wai.the' Sceth Aineflega
markets, but F-
ri)
.;illiorispealt to any further details
• • of it With that.'
at SLlcha.,distan.ce or-tit-nu,
„.. as the business. was not sea adi4an Ced aS to be the'
so
..--; übjeo of detaiLd Slat
• •
sir H Popleine—Q; was- .. '• - • ' .1
!t cumomary,toenter a-q
Ininutezit the Boar ,: C;l:Utie-raki, when an- oeicer,

•sra, aelcaNt b fl,e or -the leaditi,;...Nrcrit-
ber, to make the rcce,sary arAingeine.nts tor secret
(-.Nvice, which \vas' after:yard; to be submttc.d to
considcration ?—A. Cernf:nly not, to the best
of my re-collection.

Mr. Sturges Bourne sworn andexurnined.
Q. Were you Secretary of the Treasury any time
in the month ofjuly, 1803 ?—I was.
,Q. Did I communicate to you any time in that
month some confidential coaminnication which
had received relative to the Cape of Good Hope
A. I remerbber your making to me such a confi-'
dential communication, and I believe it might be in
the month of July, 1805. • ' •
Q. Can you state to the Court for what purpose
I made that confidential communication to you ?
A. The communication was made to me fur the
purpose of conveying it to'Mr. Pitt.
Q. What was done by, you in consequence of it ?
,—A.--I•coMMunicatedthe substance of it without
loss.of time 63 Mr. Pitt,- even while Sirtr. Popham
was in my room at. the Treasury. Mr. Pitt imme-
diately authorised me to make further inquiry on the
subjeo, M the quarter from which the communica-
tion.was stated to have been derived. I immediate-
ly obtained aninterview with one of the Gentlemen
from whom I - understood the intelligence had' been
received, and carried him to Mr. Pitt on the follow-
ingday ; the result of those interviews was a coni-
plete confirmation of the statement made by Sir H.
Popham , and Mr. Pitt instantly determined.to take
the necessary-measures for the execution of an
ex-
peditionagainst rite Cape.
Q, Do you recollect whether you received the in-
strudionssfrom Mr. Pitt either to get the intelligence
fgave.you confirmed, or to get some collateral proof
antecedent to my seeine Mr. Pitt, in consequence of
the original communication I made ?—A. Mr. Pitt,
I apprehended, direded the inquiry to be made by
me, with a view of gaining the most precise intel-
ligence that could be procured, but I believe, though
Lam not positive of its being antecedent tO;nly see-
ing Sir H.:Popham on. this subjeCt. Upon being re-
:minded of it, I think Lwent down to Mr. Pitt, ands
returned to Sir H. Popham in .my room, and accom-
'pained him to Mr. Pitt. The name of the Gentle-
man from whom the information was derived, was
.stated by• Sir H. PophaM, and I believe he did ac-
company me to a houSe in Pall Mall, whete one of
them he thought Might be found.
Q. Was you present at my conversation with Mr.
Pitt on the subject of the cape of Good Hope ?
A. 1 certainly Was.

•
Q. Can you state from your. own knowledge whe
tiler any other Expedition to the Cape was in con-
t e.uplatten at the moment I proposed the one in ques
thin to. Mr. Pitt ?—A. I am quite sure that Mr. Pitt
had no such Expdition in his contemplation at the
tiine Sir. Horne rOpham made this proposal ; and I
have no rel:n to believe that any other of the King's
Ministerslitd :inch an object in view.
•. ,Q. Do S'ou recoruct my taking the liberty, which
I did-in conSequenee of the confidence I .thought
Mr. Pitt reposed in me, when
,he expressed a doubt
what Military' bfficer should command thc.expe-
dition, and I submitted one to his consideration ?-
A. I have a faint recolleCtion of it,.but it is not suf-
ficiently strong to 'enable me to speak poSiti'vtly on
the subjeCt.
Q. Did you, from the test of your -reeolleqion,
OP from, any conversation afterwards with Mr.
Pitt, think it was the Officer that , commanded the
Military Department ?—A. I have a strong impres-
sion on my mind,. that., Sir Home Popham was
anxious that Sir David Baird should command the
expedition.
Q. In the conversation-at which you were pre-
sent, between Air. Pict and Sir Horne FoPham,
was it -desired or proposed to attack the Spanish
,Settlements. in South, America, ,aftc.r_ the-attack
upon Ike Cape, in the
.evoit of that attack being
successful recolleet no pioposal being made
in that conversation, :respeelMg the Spanish Settle-
ments iu South- AtnirTea ;''l certainly have another
-time lieard'Mr. Pitt "Late his views-with resped to'
South America.

William Ilus -E kisson.gq. sworn and examined.
. ,
Were-you imie . •.
Were of the. Secretines of the '..rrea-
'pry in the
.month of July', 1805 ?—A. I was.-
Q.'..Doyou recollect my taking leave of Mr. Pitt
in.your room at the Treasury, on or about the 29th
of July, 1805, previous to my sailing to the attack of
the Cape of Good Hope. ?—A. I have no pre-
cise retolleaion of the date but I recollea
going into my -room at the Treasury, and find-
ing-Air: Pitt and Sir Home 'Popham together. I
cannot .particularly recollea 'the time. •
Q. Do you recollect my telling you that Mr. Pitt
had desired, I would give you the names of some
Gentlemen who were likely to furnish him -N.vich every
further information on -the subjea of South Ame,
rica ?-7—A. 1 recollect generally fi.equent conversa-
tions passed between Mr. Pitt and. Myself, in which
he expressed an anxiety to gain every. possible in-
formation respecting South America,' and 'in which
he conveyed to me his desire that I would take every
opportunity of 'proem-in him such information, and
coilcaing and keeping together such is might•be
procured; but i.do not specifically recollea the pre-
cise conversation that took place at sie: Home Pop
barn's taking leave.. I have, by Mr. Pitt's desire,
more than once :conversed with .Sir Home Popham.
on the subjea of that information.
Q: Was. the impressiouat all in your mind that I,
at the time alluded to, either
.from. what I said to
,
•you, or from what afterwards occurred, that I had at
that thane conversed with Mr Pitt on the iubjed of
South America ?--4A. .Objeaed
Q. .Had you any. conversation with 4.1 r. Pitt, parr
ticulariy in the course of. the year 1803, respeaing-
South America, and particularly RuenoS Ayres ; and
did you, by his direction, take any steps respecting;
this Settlement?—A. I have already stated.that I had
comersation more than once with Mr. Pitt, and par-
ticularly respeaing Buenos Ayres, and I did take,
certain steps respecting Buenos Ayres.
you have the goodness to. state -the nature
of,thdse conversations generally, and: Vie steps yOu
nook ; bin. I do not wish to exalt from you any dis.;,
closure that could either•affed the interests of the
State or individuals, howev:ert lie result of such dis-
closure might be of-essential seivice mane in my
pre's'ont 1., believe that on almost
every' occasion Mr. -Pitt. conversed with Me on the ,
subject of South AMerica ;it grew-out of some in-
cident or occerrezi&e which ciilled his attention to:,
thar.part of the world rartieialarlt-:-I•recollea;
Oth-Lry thine

i UI l-,"

•I
-1—
as cnnlu not do tt.wit nt a )reac of trust to tn(
vidlials),t hat a perstiii bronght to Mean engraVed chart
of Ihe,tiio de la Plata, whicli I hold in my hand; ivhich
been then recently; as he-informed .inc, publish-

ed at Paris,. being the ollgi,tml, taken from the depot
Of the King of Spain, at-Madrid : and he added; that
he had i:;telligence which .led fo believe that
plan might shortly be given to some part of the French
Navy,. who would probably fitid their way to:that
settlement. Knowing, as I did, that the person who
gave me:that information WaS'one in whom Mr. Pitt
was disposed to place reliance, I of-course thought it
my duty to communicate to, hiM immediately the
plan, and what he had stated to me. On this acca-

stun some conversation, as may be naturally supposed,
passed between us. Mr. Pitt stating to me, as he
had before, :the 'views he entertained with respect
to South genially, that it was a most
essential object to this country to use its naval su-
periority, and the f2cility that superiority afforded
to our operations against'South America, should We
be obliged_to continue the war, as he apprehended
we should, if the success Of the Confederacy then

forming on the Continent did not correspond to his
wishes on that subject. 'BLit he thought this plan
essential on the subject or Mr. Pitt's Views towards
South AMerica. Mr. Pitt explained to me a parti-
cular objection which had a certain weight with'
England at that timelor not undertaking immediate
operations against -South America; but I cannot
take upon me fo say, whether, in case that objec-
tion .had not existed, Sir H. Popham would -then
have received instructions to proceed to that -part-of
the world ; but my opinion is, that he' would.
Q. Was that particular objetition'removed.by the
complete failure of the views which Mr. Pitt -had in
fOrming the confederacy on the Continent ? ---A. I
conceive it was.: •
Q.. 1 think you stated, that, Mr. Pitt desired you
to take some preliminary steps with respe& to Bue-
nos Ayres; 'as, in the event Of failing in his views
on the Continent, and the continuation of the
it would be of great importance to commence some.
operations in &nth America, and still greater to an-
ticipate the supposed views of the Drench towards
that country ?-7A. That is certainly the substance
of what I stated. .f •
Q. Do you know .of any circumstances happening'
tochange`his opiniOn in that-respe& With re-'
spe& to South America,- l have no'-reason to sup-,
pose his views were faltered: ,
Q.- Do you think his views materially increased
by the extraordinary and rapid successes of the French
On the Continent; and from the ports of the Conti.-
nent being shut up against our trade I believe
they were.

Examzned by the Prosecutor.
Q. I
/wish to ask whether you --do not know
from conversations with Mr. Pitt, previous •to the
then Continental Alliances, that he was in hopes to.
detach Spain by negotiation from her alliance 'with.
' France; and was not that the political consideration
which he started, as having
,weight with him, not
to commence arty immediate operations against
South America ?—A. Tliat was. the political ohjec-:
tion to which "alluded it my former answer. He
Wag -very far from entertaining any very sanguine
Impel of detaching Spain from her alliance with
France.
Cl.• Did Mr. Pitt:at anytitntrstata to you that Sir
Home Pophm. ,had any positive or provisional.'in-
strations to proceedto Sotith America, alter the re-
duCtion of the Cane, in' the event 'at success iii that
quarter %—A. Certaitily, I never und&stood that he
ha such instrukaions.' : : •

Q. I, wish to ask whether you . took any. further
steps, riacirc than inquiring, rel4tive to Buenos Ayres?
—A. I did.

Q. Were any Incas:ll-es taken, in. concert with the
Secretary'at War, or the First Lord of the Admiralty;
in Consequence Of those inquiries ?---A. lean :Only.
-state an opinion, upon that ; :1 don't know from Mr.
Pitt, whether there were any steps taken, or any
force was applied' for that purpose:
Q.- DO you not know, from conversations with
Mr. -Pitt, that he had in his contemplation .the attack
of Bucn6s Ayres, after the redudion ofthe'eape ?*--
A. the conversations I have had, with Mr. Pitt,
1 rather understood that any . attack on Buenos xres
was not in his actual contemplation at the time Sir
Home sailed for the Cape of Good HOpe.
By the Court. •
President.—,, (1..1%*r the political- Objection was
removed, I would ask; `whether any orders were issued, or any force was prepared 'or sent to attack
Buenos Ayres ?—A. I conceive that the political
'objection was not removed
.IEI6I the defeat of the
Russians at the battle of Austerlitz. The state. of
Mr:‘ Pitt's health waS_such; at that time, as to 'pre:-
vent his attending to public atThirs; or my having any
conversation With him upon that or any other sub-
jeet.
• Re-examined by Sir Home Popham.
Q. Were any preliminary steps taken for the pro-
secution of the attack on Buenos Ayres, in which the
Admiralty concurred ?--A. A step was taken, with-
a view to forward operations:against the Continent of
South America, whichhadthe signature of the Lords .
of the Admiralty.' I cannot recollecTi the nature of
it, nor the precise time ; but it was about the period
I rec&ved the plan arready alluded to.

FouRTH DAY.-TursitAy, MAR-Cll 10.

Upon opening the Court,w hich had been previodsly
engaged for some time in .delibei-ation, during which
'strangers were excluded ; the President addressed
Sir Home '.Pophatn in the following :terms :—" I
think, Sir, you will feel that this Court listened to you
yesterday with the most.pat lent attention,wlnle many
papers were read, and interrogations put which were
wholly irrelOant to the qUestion ithmediately before
them. They did so from the Consideration of what you
stated in your defence •to be necessary, in order to
remove. prejudices which yQUI apprehended to have
gone.abroad.. With such prejudices this Court has
ofcourse nothing whatever to do, and haying attend-.
ed to: yorir the manner I have already
stated, they-trust you will, during the remainder of
this trial, endeavour to avoid extraneous matter, and
'confine yourself to the points necesS:'pl for yOur de-
ft-nee, against the charge now utidta• our COnsidera-
.

Sir Horne -Popham.—" I shall most anxiously
endeavOur to comply with the wishc of this Honour-
able Goi.trt; qnd I be to present.my thanks for the
in:.!ulgcat .have 'experienced. the same
time; hoi;e may. be all6wed-tb-cibserve, that al-,
!Ilona!: upon tint Z;-:ace

. .
taken-the liberty Of 541bmitting Wight appear. rrcs.:-.
levant, yet, they. in
.41 hysla,nce • were
lead to other questions immediately hearing ITO the
dhargdzagainst I-.l4ope;,the Court Wili do we
the justice to believe, that it is toy- tOadhere
to that. Whi'cli is Lobviously my interest, nanieli', to •
the produetion of those point 4 oftly whicli are like;;
to operztte in my dekrice.-
.• „ .
Mr. Marsden wag then called in and sN'iorii.
Examined by Sir H. Popkam: • -
Q. How long have yOu held any official situation
under the Board of Admiralty ?-•••.A. Upwards of
t welve years.
_I

Q. From the long official -experience whi,.-4 -you
have had, as Chief Secretary to that Board, I ask you.
,whether you. can state to the Court, it in the fi-iAls of
Admiral Byng, Lord Keppel,, Sir Hugh
.Palliser, or
the more recent ones of Sir 3. Duckworth, and• S:i
Robert Calder, the charge against chose °dicers was
Worded in the manner in - which the charge is
which has given rise to the present Court IVRr...
tial ? I mean, Sir, if those orders till' holding
the- Courts-Martial in question, exculpating the
prisoner, by implication called Upon other Courts to
punish the prisoner untried, by inserting in the order
s
words to •th e following effed :----" Whereas' a due re
gar 4 for clic dof his •Majesty's sery imperious-
ly demands that
u.So -flagrant a. breach of' pul,iic
s.hould not pass' npuni§hed."

Admiral Rowley.subnitted, whether question
had any thing to do %xit.ll the, charge betbre the:
Court ? The .;i-ding of charges wa the business of
the• Admiralty, and having been on 30 Cou'rtg Mar—
tial, he Could say that they were very attu cliffe-=
rently worded:f •

. The JudgOi.Ofocke'observed; that arraifftiingibi4
conduct of the ,Admiralty was not the way for thei'!
Prisoner to'adopt in defending 'himself.
Admiral Stanhope wished to know the i.;bjeEt of
the questl44 • ' •
Sir Home POpharn-Wislied to remove, or to guard
against, the operation of every prejudice excited
against him, and: to•shew-the-m; resc.)riA4o to
originate.andet-iliese prejudices in motion : the
charge, he.observed;:had been published iitthe not's
papers. - .

Admiral StanhOpe assured Sir Home that such
:prejudices lead no..influence on his mind ; and, from
what he knew- of -the -Members of that Court, Le
was sure he coUld,sNak for them also:
After a few, more 'observations frOm the Presi-;
dent, Sir-Home Popham waived the- cineslion. •
Was Admiral Stirlingtirdered to evacuate the'.
Rib de la 'Plata Not having belOte.
I-lett town; of the. questions to be but to me, I de•
clare I don't recollect a paper pat into my hands,
Mr: jarviS-,- to 'refresh- the witness's memory, pre=
serited a copy of theorders issued td-Admiral
Mr. Marsden could not'Conscientionsly dtil.ose!to
. that-paper. ' - '

Q. 1.1.) you recollect whether any force, as
tiohnrY force for the was sent there, after 'the.
receipt of my leiter of the 9th of 41)64 J 806 i s.tiat
ing the. arrangement I had made for going to the
East COast of South Ameriea with the squadron
under my command think the Simpson was
sent'as a ship intended for the Coe of Good flope
station. I believe that shortly afterwards Sir Tho-
tpas Troubrie was .orde..-ed there from the EASt
Indies.

(1. When did the Sampson leave Etic*.and
I do not recolleat the date:

Q. was the. Sampson ordered to call at the Rio
de la Plata ?--A. I think she was.
0. And you thou consider. her as a ship ordered
.direC.tly to the Cape for the proteztion of it I—A.
Not d i
U. .1.) you recolleet. when V.iras employed in
Russia that I had several, Commanders' in the Navy
put under. my ()Hers ?---A. I do -not recollea -that
faa, though I have no reasonto doubt
0. liaSl.vitness brought down the sentence .of the.
Court Martial on Capt. Thompson ?
Judge .Advocate.—" The judgment of this Court
cannot be bound by the precedents of former Conrts."
Admirals Rowley and Coffin were adverse to the
idea of submitting the judgment of the Court.to such
rules.

Sir H. Popham did not presume to offer prece-
dents as a rule to determine the opinion olthat lic-
notrable Court, bui-inerely to spew that he himself
was guided by precedent, and that his cbn du& was
not of that singular charziater which had been as-
cribed to it elselkhere:

• '
Mr. 7'. Wilson, a Xeichant, of London,' sworn and

examined.

Q. By Sir Horne Popham.--I believe you are a
Merchant of London, and have-considerable- inter-
course with the Rio-.de la Plata ?—A. Yes, I have:
,Q..Do,you recoiled thy having several cotiversa-;
tions on that subje;.-1 with you in the summer of
1805 ?---Yes, I do; I .think about. the month oI
June. It was respethug the produds of the coun
try and its strength, which you learned from a pen.;
son who had been employed there by me. The
result was, that all the information 1 had was frotu
three certain persons. I made an appointment with-
ime of them to go up to Mr. Pitt, with Sir H. Pop_
ham, on his return from Portsmouth.

• Q. -Did you endeavour to persuade me of the ne-;
cessity of pressing upon Mr. Pitt's mind the value of
a stronghold in South America`?----A. I newer saw
Mr. Pitt myself privately; as the appointments did
.not take place, in consequence of Sir„H. Peplum's
having intimated that the object \Val givers .up,fer
the present. I have been in the habit of trading to
that country by licence since t W.?, by neutral vessels,
and several times to' Admiral Fa-wkener and, Sit
Charles Cottrel 1 have suggested the, great conse-
quence of that trade to this Country, and how easily
it could be efthaed in British vessels, the place it=.
self being so, ~yeak.

Q. Did you ever mention this to the Board of
Trade •publicly?—A. Yes, I did, several times:

Aft% Thomas Browneswoi.h,and-iret*ized by SW
H. Popham. •
Q. Were you .Master Attendant at • the Cape of
Good Hope atieT its capture in 1804 ?-A. Yes:
Q. Did you constutfr the Cape is a perfect state of
security after I sailed from it :with mrsquadron tar
'the river De la Plata ?—A. I did.

Q. D you think- Sit D. Baird sb considpted it
from any conversation you had with hiui oti th
subs
jest I do.

U. Relate to the Cofart,. as short as po'ssiblei
substance of the. conversations- relating- tv chi state of
clvictlve is whivb the Cape Wasi.

Judge Advocate.—I doubt whether this is evi-
dence. T feelmyself bound in my official situation

to sta:e my opinion.
Q. Did Sir D. Baird ever consult you about
placing any batteries.? and what did he say to you
on the subject of the defence of the Cape ?-e-A. Sir
D. Baird never consulted me about placing any bat-
teries, but he told me that he had erected additional
batterias for the protection of Table Bay. I have
heard Str 'D. Baird repeat more than once or twice,
that he wislied Bonaparte, with 12,000 of the finest
of his troops, would come and attack the Cape, and
he would give diem such a drubbing that he would
wish h:rseielf back in his country again. I have gone
to the batteries a dozen times, and then heard Sir D.
Baird say, that all the round towered batteries were
in complete good repair, and it was impossible to
make the Cape rntich stronger than it really was.
Q. Were you at the Cape when the Cannoniere
French frigate anchored there ?—A. Yes.
Q. Where did she anchor ?—A. In False Bay.
lle skewed in the chart the particular spot, outside
both Noah's Ark and the Roman Rough, a long way.
She never came into Simon's Bay.
Q. If I had been lying in . Table Bay with the
whole of my squadron, do you think I should have
been able to have taken that frigate ?—A. I do not.
-Q. HI had been lying in Simon's Bay, under the
circumstances of the wind and weather, when she
came from the Eastward, in the general circumstance
of wind and weather in the Bay at that time of the
year, May, I believe, and with the commonest look
out on the part of the enemy, db you think it pos-
sible that I could have taken her ?—A. I do not.
Q. Do you remember the capture of La Volontaire
French frigate, by the squadron under iny
com-
mand ?--sA. Yes, I do.
Q. State to the Court the reasons which occurred
to you why, in all probabilist', I should not have
captured the Cannoniere, if I had been lying in Si-
1110id'S Bay with all my squadron ?—A. Ships Corn-
ing into False Bay, round the Cape, had a consider-
able distance (on account of the two rocks, called the
Bellows and Anvil) to stand over for the purpose of
getting into the-true breeze, and to avoid the current
svllch generally runs out in the tenth part of the Bay,
and to ship to the northward of Whittle Rock. By
that means Simon's Bay is clearly exposed to any ships
lying there. On this account, I believe that cruizers
would make private signals, and I am certain that this
Cannoniere was in possession of the private signals
used by the Dutch at the Cape, as the Officer who
was. made prisoner by the boat's- crew said she had
dispatches for Governor Jansen ; and also the winds
that day were on the South part of that bay and Si-
mon's bay, light and variable, and she kept work-
ing up on the South part of the bay, until she came
to au anchor. The ships that were lying in Sinion's
Bay at the time were, the Rolla, which was refitting,
a transport, and two or three neutral vessels, perhaps

more. •
[The 'examination respeaing the capture of the above ship
occupied the attention of the Court tb; sctne time.; but 'the
resuit tvas of no consequence in respect to the case before the
Court.] - -•
A number of questions were then put to this wit-
ness respecting the situation of the-Cape, and the
arrivals of ships at it after Sit Home Popham had

sailed.
Q. Could the merchant ships have remained
either Simon'.s Bay or Table Bey completely prO-
teaed from any insult of the enemy, by being pro-
perly nioore-din either of those Bays ?—A. Certain-
ly they could m perfect safety.
He then poke to the receiving the news of Lord
-Nelson's victory, and the active measures taken by
Sir David Baird for the prote&ion of the Colony,
by establishing flying artillery, &c. and the resist-
ance that could have been made had an enemy at-
tempted to land.
Q. Do you remember having captured the For-
tuna Brig, under neutral colours, or being captured in
Table Bay by one of the boats of your department,
and the person who boarded her brought on shore
the nephew of Schiminelpenninck, President of the
Batavian Government, with all his dispatches.—A.
I do, pet fcaly well ; they were secreted in a drawer,
aad they were opened in the Garrison by Colonel
Vassal. I heard them read; and at the Governor's
house, betre Sir a Baird, something after Sir
Home P.'s sailing.
- -

Capt. Urra. King examined by Sir H. Popham.
Had been twenty years in the Navy, three of
whieh was Aging Lieutenaet ; -had served chiefly in
the East Indies, Cape of Good Hope, and home
service ; at the capture of the Cape of Good
Hope ; was appointed to the command of the Dia•
deco in January t 806 ; remembers the circum-
stance of the boats of the- squadron capturing the
110114 brig ; remembers hailing the Volontaire French
fre-ate to strike her colours when she passed the
Diadem 'coming into Table Bay. Thee Volon-
taire was considered the forerunner of Admiral Vii.'
leaureez's Squadron. From all the conversations I
had held with the French - Officers, I entertained no
doubt but they were destined for the Cape of Good
Hope ; and in a conversation with Capt. Bretteil,
who commanded the Voiontaire, he expressed much
uneasiness for. the fate of the French Squadron,
stating his fears' that they would arrive two at a time
to water and refresh. ,
Q. Did you imagine, from the' communications
of the French Officers, that either all or part of the
French Squadt'on might be hourly expected at the
Cape ?—A. Certainly. But as theVolontaire bad been
long parted with them, and had a long passage, I
Obtained information which appeared- to me to be
certain that Villeaumez was bound ultimately to the
Brazils for refreshments, and then to the West In-
dies ; which information Lcommunicated to Sir H.
Popham, having obtained it from -an Officer of La
Volontaire, whom T .did not think much in the
:French -interest. He was Secretary, and was likely
to give every information ; and whOse information
ts to the enemy's going- to the West Indies was
confirmed, 'Remembers batteries being provided by
the suggestion of Sir Home,- which . command
Table Bay ; and beard Sir David Baird express
himself satisfied with the state of defence- of the
piztcre.
Q.. State to the Court, whether, in your opinion,
all the'yearly commerce between England and time
Indies, if it could be colletled in Table say, would
not be perfee'lly secure from any attack of the ene-
my ?-ee.A. I think that any hostile man of war that
might attack them would be destroyed by the effiet
of the batteries, provided the merchant ships were
_properly.ptpced. I had no idea that they could ever
f• force to.v.ttack the Cape.after Lord Nelson's

Q. Is an,. place within your knowledge that
is so difficult to make an impre,sion on by an in-
vading Army as the. Cape of Good Hope ?—A. No,
generally speaking ; for I do not mean to include
Gibraltar, or such fortresses as that. He then. spoke
to the preparations of defence made by Sir David
Baird, particularly the flying artillery—the im-
portance of which, in preventing a landing, he con-
sidered very great.
Q. When I sailed from the Cape of Good Hope
with the whole of my squadron, did you not 'know,
and was it not generally understood, that I was
going to attempt a coup de main against one of thee
enemy's possessions in the Rio de la Plata ?
A. Yes.
Q. Could I possibly have left behind, a 'fri-
gate, or even a gun .brig, without risking the suc-
cesss of whatever attempt I meant to make on
either of those settlements ?—A. No ; as our force
was small when combined. _ _ _

Q. As you say the force was small, I wish to ask
you, from all the information which we were in
possession of, respe&ing the defeneZless state of the
enemy's possessions on the Rio de la Plata, was
there the smallest doubt expressed by any Officer
in the Army or Navy employed on that expedition,
or by General Baird, of our attaining complete pos-
session of one of the places above alluded to, pro-
vided we sailed immediately, and abed with
promptness and vigour on our arrival in the River ?
—A. No.

Q. Did you ever directly or indire6.4 hear that
Sir D. Baird offered the least argument against my
taking the whole of the squadron from the Cape, at
which place he was Lieutenant Governor, or-express
a wish for any thing to remain beyond the Charlotte
schooner, which was held ready to follow me with
any dispatches that might arrive from Europe,
A. Never. _ _

In answer to another question he said :—From .
various -conversations I have had with, and the
knowledge I have of you, I am confident you had
no obje& in view in the expedition but the annoy-
ance of the enemy, the honour of the service, and
the public interest of the commerce of Great Britain.
• Q. After the capture of Buenos Ayres, did I not
do every thing by precept and example' to conciliate
the minds of the inhabitants, and to prove to them
that the great obje& of the Expedition ,was to esta-
blish an intimate conne&ion and intercourse between
that country and Great Britain i—A.You
Q. Were not applications frequently offered to
me on the propriety of immediately' embarking-the
quicksilver and the bark, and did I not refuse tei do
so, until the fleet was completely victualled ; and
by that attention to the public service, did I not
make a very. material private sacrifice, and to what
amount in yoiir judgthent I—A. I frequently pro-
posed to you to embark the property, which you, con-
stantly declined, until the fleet wils completely vic-
tualled, and I think you thereby made a personal sa-
crifice of at least 23,0001. •
Q: Do you remember my having sent from the
Cape of Good Hope to England, to Admiral Coch-
rane in the West Indies, to Sir Edw. Peiiew in the
East Indies, and to the Officer commanding off the
Mauritius, the intelligence I received of Admiral
Willeaumez's fleet, and its probably ultimate desti-
nation ?—A. Yes.
Q. Was there ever a doubt entertained by any
Captain of the squadron, that the Rio de la Plata was
completely within the Cape station ?—A. Never.
[This witness was examined at great length, but
we have not room for the examination in detail.—
He stated on repeated questions, that he considered
the Cape perfeEtly safe—that it was always under-
stood that Buenos Ayres was within the Cape Sta-
tion].

FIFTH DAY.-WEDNESDAY•

The President, as soon as the Court had opened,
having asked Sir Home Popham whether he had
any other evidence to advance :, •
t
•
The Honourable Captain replied, that heliadi
in his power to add several other witnesses, particu-
larly Captains Edwards and Parker, and Lieutenant
Madden, who could corroborate the testimony of
Captain King : but from the time which this trial
bad already occupied, and from an unwillingness to
trespass further on the attention of the Court, he '
would decline any further evidence if the Court
should not think it necessary. He would entirely
abide by their will.
The President and the c.•ier Members expressed
their readiness to attend to Rey witnesses the Hon.
Captain might feelit advisable to bring forward, but
declared it as their unanimous opinion, that the evi-
dence of Captain King required no corroboration
whatever, and that if the other witnesses were meant
to apply to the conduct of Sir Home at Buenos
Ayres, or to the motives which actuated his pro-
ceedings, it was perfedly unnecessary to resort to
them, as no one could ascribe any sinister motive to
the Hon, Captain.
Sir Home then presented a list of papers which
he wished to have read in his defence and en-
tered on the minutes. Those which included his
correspondence with the Admiralty, and the greater
part of which we have already detailed, were ad-
mitted by the Court; but others they were pleased.
to consider as inadmissible evidence.
Sir Home then addressed the Court in the follow
ing terms :—" I here close my defence, and I throw
myself upon the wisdom and justice of this Honourable
Court. My feelings and my charader have suffered
severely ; but I trust to your judgment to relieve.the
one, and rescue the other. If I have, in the exercise
of my zeal, exceeded the strictest. bounds of discre-
tion, I hope it will be evident that I have been ac-
tuated solely by a desire to advance the honour, the
glory, and the interest of my Country. In the pro-
secution of those great objets, aided by my gallant
followers, and fostered by the superintending hand.
of Providence, it has been my good fortune to be put
in possession of the two capitals of two quarters of
the globe ; and I trust i Iwill be fonnd, upon a close
examination •of rtly defence, that
44 The head'and front of my oft'ending'
" Hatlytois extent—no more:"
The Court was—then ordered to be cleared, and
the Members remained in,,deliberation until three.