The Sun.
London, England, 1838-04-07 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 6.

The I,OIID CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack hi
five o'clock.

Lord KENYON pCesentert a petition praying for the immediate
abolition of N4ro Slavery. He could not agree with the prayer of the
petitionerS. Ile did not think that Parliament ought to break good
faith with the planters. Moreover he entertatned considerable doubts
whether it would be for the benefit of the slaves that their freedom
should be accelerated.

Lord .110SEBERY presented a petition from the Minister and
Elders of the United Secession Congregation of Edinburgh, against
any further endowment to the Church of Scotland; also a petition from
another place to the same effect.

Mr. BERNAL and others brought up several private Bills.
ROMAN CATHOLIC OATHS.

The Earl of SIT REWSBURY, in consequence of seeing the papers
,hich had beets laid en their Lordships' table by a Right Rev. Prelate
then in his place (the Bishop of Exeter), gave notice that on
an early day after the recess he should feel it to be his duty
o bring the subject of these papers under their Lordships' consi-
deration. He trusted—indeed he felt perfectly convinced—he should
be able to prove, that the oath taken by Roman Catholics remained now
as it did previous to the opinion of the Pope of Rome having been com-
municated to the Bishop of Malta; and that that opinion did not con-
vey a condemnation of that oath. He trusted he should also bre able to
convince their Lordships that he did not belong to those who, it had
been laboured to shave, had in their minds removed from them every
sacredness of an oath, and who set at nought the guilt of perjury.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the
Methodists of Boston in Lincolnshire ; and also a petition from
the inhabitants of the borough of Boston, praying for the imme-
diate abolition of Negro apprenticeship.
On the motion of Lord KEN YON, the Bradford and Huddersfield
Road Bill was read a second time, and the Shrewsbury Road Bill a first
time.

NEGRO EMANCIPATION.
Lord NORTHAMPTON presented a petition from the Society of
Friends of Northampton, praying for the immediate abolition of Negro
apprenticeship. He, for one, felt it his duty to state that he entertained
considerable doubt of the prndence and the justice of the course wished
to be pursued by the petitioners.

Earl FITZWILLIAM presented petitions from Skiptown and seve-
ral other p'aces to the same effect. As the Noble Lord who had just
sat down had taken the opportunity of expressing his opinion upon
the subject, it was perhaps a duty which he (Earl Fitzwilliam) owed
to those who had entrusted him with their petition, that he
also should state that he entirely dissented from the views of the peti-
tioners. Ile felt greatly honoured by their intrusting their petitions
to him, because it seemed to be an evidence that they thought his
opinion coincided with their own. He did entertain the same opinion
with the petitioners upon the subject of slavery generally in •ur
Colonies; but still he had more than a doubt of the wisdom
of interfering with that provision which had already been made for
the termination of slavery, inasmuch as he did not believe that such in-
terference would be consistent with justice to the planters, and injus-
tice to the planters could hardly be set at defiance by the friends of
negro emancipation, merely on the ground of humanity.
The Marquis of SLIGO presented a great number of petitions for the
abolition of the apprenticeship system, of which we did not collect the
names.

Lord LYNDHURST presented also a number of petitions from
Byerly, and other places in the West Riding of Yorkshire, to th• same
effect.

ARUNDEL PEERAGE.

Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from a claimant to the
Arundel Peerage, which was laid on the table.
FACTORIES BILL

Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from parents of children
employed in woollen factories in the West-Riding of Yorkshire, praying
for alteration in the Factories Bill, so far as it relates to woollen fac-
tories, in which the health of the children is not so much affected as in
cotton factories, where a high temperature is required.
NEW POOR LAW BILL.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA gave notice that after the recess he
would introduce a measure for the improvement of the New Poor.
law Bill, with respect to diet and labour in workhouses, and nut-door
relief. He was a friend to the system of giving labour to
paupers in workhouses, but he objected to the system which was pur-
sued in some workhouses, especially in that of tte Bridge Union, in the
county of Kent, where paupers were compelled to carry a bag of sail,'
for three hours daily. He had supported the Poor Law Bill in all its
stages, but he thought that in its practical operation it required amend.
ment.

Earl rrrzwiLLlAM said that the complaint of the Noble Lord
applied to the conduct of the Local Guardians, and not to the
Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, therefore, that the Noble
Lord ought rather to bring in a Bill to extend the authority of the Coin.
missioners over the local officers than to abridge it.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said that his present object was merely
to bring the attention of the Commissioners to the proceedings going on
in the Bridge Union.
IRISH CHURCH COMMISSION.
The Earl of ItIPON rose to move for a return of papers con-
vected with the Irish Church Commission. He was one of those
who, in the year 1833, being a Member of his late Majesty's
Government, concurred in recommending to his Majesty to make to
Parliament that speech which suggested the measure generally known
as the Irish Church Temporalities Bill. lie always had the strongest
impression that the well.working of that law was essential to the welfare
of the Church of Ireland, and that no measure could be proposed for the
settlement of any question connected with that Church, which was not
directly and intimately connected with the principles and provisions of
that Bill. He had consequently frequently felt it to be his duty to re-
quest information as to the practical operation of that measure, and such
was the object of his present motion. That Bill originated in a recten.
mendation made by the Crown to Parliament, and that recommendation
was couched in words which to his mind had an important bearing upon
the whole subject. The words were these--" In your deliberations on
these important subjects, it cannot be neoessary for me to impress upon
you the duty of carefully attending to the security of the Church esta-
blished bs law in these realms, and to the true interests of religion."
Such were the principles upon which the subject was to be considered ;
and he could see nothing in a subsequent paragraph to separate the case
of the Church in Ireland from the general principle before stated. That
paragraph was as follows;--" In the further reforms that may be needs-
sary, you will probably find that, although the Established Church of
Ireland is by law permanently united with that of England, the peculiari-
ties of their respective circumstances will require a separate considera4
lion." That paragraph, therefore, contained a reiteration of the per..
manent union by law of the two Churches in England and Irelands!
In conformity with those principles was the language of the Ministers oil
the Crown in explainin'g the measure, and, on the first day of the deba'e:
in that House, his Noble Friend the First Lord of this Treasury (Earl!
Grey) said, " That the apprehensions of mischief intended against the:
Church had been guarded against in the construction of the leing's4
Speech ; he wished to provele for the Church on strictly Conservative!
sentiments." Such were the sentiments of the whole Government--
such were the only sentiments which could have induced him to con..
sent to the measure. Objections had undoubtedly been made to the'
measure; but, considering the sweeping nature of its provisions, it
was not very likely to have passed at all, sinless the language of the
Government, and the framer of the law, had given security to the
friends of the Church. By none had these sentiments been more
strongly urged than by the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) who had been
then an.l was still the President of the Council. The objects of the
measure were distinctly stated to be the safety of the Church; and
the Bill was a species of Parliamentary pledge that those objects
ought to be a them! to. For the purpose of attaining those
objects the law had directed a Commission with powers so large
that the peculiar circumstances of the Irish Church alone could
justify them; those duties wore, then, of the most important and re-
sponsible nature, and had nothing since occurred which increased ten-
fold, nay, a hundredfold, the importance and responsibility of their
citifies ? Was the language now held confined to complaints of the ex-
treme inconvenience of tithes ? Was the language vague and indefinite?
Had it not swelled into fierce and violent denunciations ? Were not
tithes now called a grievance, and that in high places ? That alone was
sufficient to make the friends of the Church uneasy, and anxious to
welch with zealous care every measure intended for its benefit. Then,
again, was there nut the resolution of 1835 in the House of Commons ?
If he were to express his opinion of that resolution he should say that
it was the most absurd, impolitic, and mischievous resolution of which
he had ever hearts; it was so mischievous that its mischief was not
qualified by Its absurdity. Iler Majesty's Government had ever
since been bound hand and foot by it; and he verily believed
that they would give up almost their existence—(A laugh)—if
they email get rid of lt. The consequence was that year after year
they had been Compelled to bring forward measures in which
he never Could discover anything, except that they endeavoured to
create a surplus by first creating a deficiency. Such circumstance.; jus.
tided him in requiring information as to the practical operation of the
law. He would first state the actual condition of the Commission, and
the demands pressing on it. The Noble Lord here entered into a variety
of arithmetical details respecting the Report of the Commission, and
the demands crossing upon the Commission. He then proceeded to ob.
nerve, at the time the Commissioners of Public Instruction reported,
there were no less than 465 benefices, varying from 30/ to 2001, per
annum. There were also 118 livings, varying from 2001. to 2501. per
annum. Their Lordships must know that in all the plans devised, one
part of the proposition had been to diminish the tithe composition by
three tenths. If this principle were applied to the 118 livings it would
bring them all down below 2001.—in fact, to 175/. as a maximum; and
if the others were reduced, the minimum would be 201. and the maxi.
mum 1751. per annum. In order to ratite these livings to 2001. per au_
num, it would require a, annual income of sixty thousand pounds;
and to meet th's the Commissioners had not one farthing to dis.
tribute except the bounty of two former Primates of Ireland, who
had left a fund for the purpose. This was all the Commissioners
hail to give, and he must say, as the matter stood, that this was all
they had or could do towards increasing the small livings. In any set-
tlement of the ail'airs of the Irish Church the Government was bound to
keep in view the destitute state which he had demonstrated. The
Noble Earl concluded by moving for certain rsturns respei ling the Irish
Ecclesiastiwl Commission, and of the perpetuities sold under the
Church Temporalities Act.

Viscount MELBOURNE said that the papers which his Nublc
Friend had moved for were so proper to be granted that it was almost
unnecessary for his Noble Friend to tell him beforehand what the
papers were for which he intended to move. He had nothing to ob-
serve on the remarks made by his Noble Friend respecting the objects,
character, and intentions of the Act passed in 1833. He, however,
certainly coincided in the view taken by the Noble Lord, for he consi-
dered it as a Bill for the support of the Church as far as it had a ten.
dency to support that Church, and he also thought that it was incum-
bent on the Government to confer those benefits on the Church of
England in Ireland which were intended to be given by that Act.
With respect to what his Noble Friend had stated respecting
the Commissioners, he understood that he cast no blame upon
them, either fur the manner In which they had executed the ob-
j,:cts of the Bill, or for the manner in which they had discharged
the trust reposed in them. In fact the Bill ivas speculatiive,
very much like a Railway Bill—a Bill out of which the funds were
to be supplied from the amount of property afterwards. The funds,
from circumstances, had ceased entirely. However Noble Lords on
the other side bf the House might like this result, they could not be
surprised at it, because they said that it would be the result. The
Noble Earl had animadverted on the resolutions of the House of Corn-
rnons, and upon various measures brought before it, before or subsequent
to those resolutions. His Noble Friend would, perhaps, recollect thi,t
there was a measure in 1834, previous to those resolutions—a measure

. . .
not embody hi viinciple; and which, if adopted,, would
have led to 4settlerient of the:Cilissticri Bid vi'as rejected; and on
grounds whieh.he slionld bier think exii-ern.bly and he emit,'
not help believipg that ilict; 44 eli3it.l;l4tY Was lost or puiting the
churn 61 ivigiand in Ireland upon a footing which would have led to
.ouch more favourable auspices than those WhiCh present ettl4.l.
Noble Friend had given advice a 1,4 iatt.
:irige which tlictty (the ViOveiositr:lll) nold respecting the Church.
--(Hear, heal', hear.) They had lately been in the habit of receiving a
;rent deal of advice on the subj,et. A Noble Earl (iladdiogton),
not now present, gave some advice, and so had others. A Noble
Dukc had also given striii atiViee. With rcAtielq to the tfoble Knife
and thE NOhlt Lords *ho had thitni 601R=--"and
,Viscount M.lbritirtie) ga6cu thein ildrfeci credit for the sincerity of their
dvice—h, believed they would he glad to ate the Government strong
and bringing forward such measures as they could approve of, BUt hots
natty could these Noble Lords rely on ? now Many others agreed with
them, and how many CAM they carry along in the o'dect they ltd tit
icw ? tie believed that he truly stated the motives with whirl' they
offered their advice ; but they were not alone. And what was their ad-
vce ? Translate it Into p'i'n English and the meaning was this. "Dc
not think of your supporters—of the peop'e of the country who support
sou. On the contrary do what you can to grattry and pl,ase those who
are your decided opponents, tho,e who hare evinced towards you nothing
t the bittere.4 hostility," That was the advice which the Noble Duke
in his (Viscount Melbourne's) situation would not be inclined to follow;
-toil this he would say, that they had never, and they would never bring
iOrward any measure that they did not think founded on r;ght, without
reference to the opinions of this party or of that, and with the view of
supporting the Protestant Church, as well as the other institutions of the
country. The Noble Duke on a former occasion said that there was a great
change in the policy of the Government as compared with that of former
Governments. That they neither encouraged the Established Church
of England, Ireland, or Scotland, nor the Churches in our Co.
lonia) dependencies. The word encourage did not appear to
him (Viscount Melbourne) to be the proper term to use. Encou-
ragement was fora nascent state, or from principles of which the utility
and soundness were perhaps not generally known and acknowledged.
He he would say, in the more proper language employed by the last
speaker, that it was the duty of Government, and that it was the inten-
tion of Government,to maintain and to defend the Protestant Church as
established at the Reformation, and the Church of Scotland as established
by law. If the Noble Duke meant by encouragement that..measures
were In be taken for devoting ecclesiastical property in a much larger
proportion than the wealth of the country—(Hear, hear)—at the pre-
sent day, he (Viscount Melbourne) would say, that it was a very serious
question, whether it was a real encouragement, or whether it was a
policy which ought, to be pursued. In conclusion, he would most dis-
tinctly say, that there never had been an Administration in this coun.
try, of whatever power or talents, more determined than the present to
support and maintain the establishments of the country, both civil and
ecelesiastical.—(Hear, hear.)

The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the Noble Viscount might
as well have made these statements a few evenings ago. What he (the
Duke of Wellington) charged upon the Noble Viscount—and he would
confess that from what he had heard he was not inclined to withdraw
his charge—was a departure from the ancient policy of the country,
which for the last 200 years had been to protect, maintain, and encou.
rage tho Established Church of England and Ireland, and for the last
1.50 years the Church of Scotland. That was what ha charged
upon the Noble Viscount, and he (the Duke of Wellington) would
not again enter into the discussion of a recent evening, but the more
he reflected upon that discussion the more convinced he was that the
Noble Viscount hrd not done his duty to the Church of Scotland in
neglecting to adopt measures for the support of religion in the large
towns. The Noble Viscount said that the Noble Earl (Ripon) had
supported the Bill. He (the Duke of Wellington) had supported
that Bill. He had objected to some of its details; but he had given
his support to the Bill. He was aware that other Noble Lords
had not supported that Bill. According to the system of taxation, as
the Noble Earl had proved, the resources of the Commissioners to in.
crease small livings would be diminished. The Noble Viscount said that
the House would not adopt the plan of the year 1834. A most impor-
tant part of that Bill—the redemption clause—had been struck out in
another place—(Hear]—and thus it came up to the House shorn of all
its benefits. He (the Duke of Wellington) was desirous to see an ar.
rangement not only of this, but of every other question discussed dur.
ing the last few years respecting Ireland, with the sincere view of putting
an end to them, and seeing the Government strengthened in all these
questions.

The Earl of WICKLOW believed that these resolutions were only
proposed to gain a political end, for a party motive, which was to place
the Government in the position which it at present occupied. His Noble
Friend had said that he thought the measure gave great embarrassment
to the Ministry. He (the Earl of Wicklow) believed no such thing. He
believed that Government, having gained their object, cared little
for the resolutions, and that they would throw them overboard as soon
as it might suit their convenience. He, moreover, thought that the
House of Commons would never sanction a measure founded on those
resolutions, by which the revenues of the clergy were to be transferred
from them, and the clergy themselves made pensioners on the Consoli-
dated Fund. He was most desirous to see the l'oor.laws, the Tithe
Bill, and Irish Corporation Bill settled ; and Ile could assure the Noble
Viscount that he would set his shoulder to the wheel, in order to render
them acceptable to the country.
The Bishop of DERBY regretted that the measure of 1834 had been
discountenanced in the manner it had.
The returns were then ordered, and the House adjourned.

PRIVATE BUSINESS OF PARLIA-

MENT.

COMMITTEE on BILL (WEST SCOTLAND LIST).
Lord WILLIAM BINTINCK in the Chair.
Glasgow Waterworks Bill.—.A a petition from the Deacon,
Convener, and others of the City of Glasgow, against this
Bill was read, but no one appeared for it as Counsel or agent.
The cross-examination of Mr. Mackain (not 111' Cane, as we
stated by mistake the other day), was proceeded with by Mr.
NPNEIL, of the Scottish Bar.
The Company take nearly a rack-rent where they can get
it. The Commissioners of Police have an interest in
getting all that they can from the inhabitants of Glasgow.
The cases of Glasgow and Edinburgh arc very different ; in
Edinburgh the Commissioners of Police have, perhaps,
varied the rates from caprice; does not believe that the rents
in Edinburgh have lowered, during the last twenty years,
to the amount of 20 or 30 per cent., but they have decreased
greatly; the rents in Glasgow have increased from the
increase of population; not, as far as witness knows, from the
increased value of the houses; houses in Glasgow are build-
ing fast; in Edinburgh he does not know if they arc; the
surveyor of the New Waterworks Company is to be paid by a sa-
lary ; the present inspector and surveyor is paid by a commis--
sion on account; values the rates according to his own estimate;
if inhabitants do not like the amount of rate, they can re-
fuse if they do refuse, he cannot say where they would
get a supply, excepting sundry wells at a con_
siderable distance, or the Clyde. The present Bill
proposes the rates for no period shorter than
a year, excepting in the cases of new-coming tenants, who are
to be changed from the time of their entry to the end of the
current year ; capit II to be reduced to 3',6,000/. ; the 350,0001 ,
the old capital, is all expended, and more money too; witness
was very fully examined on the last Committee.
Mr. ANDREWS hero objected to any question being put
to the witness as to anything which took place in a former
Committee of the House.
Mr. M'Neno contended that it was necessary to refer to it
otherwise he could not obtain from the witness what had been
the Committee's knowledge of the amount of capital, which he
Mr. M'Neil believed was only 260,000/.
Mr. ANDREWS objected to the course of his Learned Friend,
as, if it were allowed, it would let in the practice of examin-
ing every witness, before every Committee, as to all the evi-
dence of any former Committee.
The room was then cleared, after which the Chairman an-
nounced the decision of the Committee that the evidence of
the witness himself, given before the former Commi,tee might
be gone into, but no other proceedings of such Committee
were to be entered into.
On our re-admission, we found Mr. Hill addressing the
Committee upon his right to refer to a printed copy of the
minutes of the short-hand writei's book.
Mr. ANDRE:VS objected to this—when the room was cleared ;
after which the Committee decided that the minutes were nut
to he given in evidence.
Mr HILL then proceeded with the examination of Mr.
Mackain.
After two or three words from the Learned Counsel, Mr.
Andrews objected to Mr. M'Neil having resigned the examina-
tion of the witness into the hands of Mr. Hill. Besides which, he
Mr. Andrewe, objected to the witness being compelled, as
secretary of the Water-works Company, to disclose certain pri.
vote transactions between such Company and himself.
Mr. HILL insisted ,upon his right to be heard in
examination, as it was merely upon a point of law of English
evidence, with which Mr. M'Neil, as a Scottish Advocate,
was not, perhaps, so well acquainted as himself. He also in-
sisted on his right to examine the witness upon points re-
lative to the transactions of the Company; and witness as
their Secretary. The Learned Gentleman quoted instances
of Counsel and Attorney, Clergyman and Parishioner, &C.,
wherein the law did not hold sacred from evidence their commu-
nications, &^.
Mr. NPNEIL then proceeded with the examination of the
witness, who stated that 50,000/. each was the sum which the
Companies of Glasgow and Cranston Hill were authorised to
borrow ; upon this sum interest must be paid before any divi-
dend is paid ; if there is any surplus, 5 per cent. may
be divided ; the projected works include pipes, steam engines,
reservoirs, &e. ; proposed to be within 100,0001. ; the Com-
pany have lands upon which they can erect steam engines, reser-
a weir has existed some time below-
voils, filtering ponds, &c. ;
the Cranston-hill Works; if the weir is removed, it will
much injure the works, but not quite destroy them; the
Trustees of the Clyde Bridge have removed part of
this weir illegally ; witness presented a petition of com-
plaint against them on that account ; never stated that
salt water had got into the Company's works by such al-
teration of the heir: should the Bridge Trustees go on with
their injury to the weir, the greatest damage would be
done; the site of the Company's works must be removed;
believes there is ne chance that the Courts will decide against
the Company treon the point ; the 326,000/. has been bene-
ficially expended on the works; no estimate has been made
of their value ; cannot answer if 326,0001. would he given for
the works by a purchaser :---200,0001. would not he sufficient
to cover the value ; cannot estimate what would ; but is sure
200,0001. would not be sufficient; a statement was made by
the Committee of the Proprietors that 100,0001. had been
expended by the Company upon the most ruinous speculations.
Mr. HILL here repeated his arguments, that questions of
evidence should be put to the witness, relating to all transac-
tiona between the Company and witness as their secretary.
It was agreed between Mr. Andrews and Mr. Hill, that a
report of such proceedings should be put in. Witness pro-
duced a printed book, containing such report.
Examination resumed by Mr. lIILL—The 100,000/, was ex-
pended upon works at the original station; those works have
been removed; the new shares if sold at 50/. will amount to
150,0001. ; the selling price is not 801., but more than 50/. ;
the present Bill intends to have shares of 50/. ; cannot say what
the capital may amount to, if 7 per cent. is to be expended ;
the shares of the Company are perpetually changing hands ;
some, it is true, are in the hand/ of original shareholders.; others
are continually changing hands. The Glasgow Shares are esti-
mated at Dl. per share, and the Cranston-hill at 121. ; the
works of the former would, at this rate, be worth 65,0001 ;
since the erection of the works, the value of mate-
rials has very much decreased • does not know the pre-
sent selling price of iron. The trustees of the late Alr.
Spiers, of Eldersley, hold 800 shares in the Company ; wis`e

•
tress has.grotind in his occupation in Cranston-hill, which
ground has n'Ot been ;tie rot seven years; there were re-
f.'et*ol.-s at CFnitsidn-hlll feffloiled ; rniett cost
the sum of six thousand pounds ; the Company hate
giroundi !Ind hvd also works snow abondoned) in Rotten-row;
i e •Zioti. the Op6.id,tif Wmlfs in„,cranston 1101; as
also Coe works abrindoneri ene-.e find Vriinqad!witneta
could show the statement of value of abandoncd
documents, hot etuinot do so to day ; will do so to-rm,r-
row ; C•2:npany had pumps at Mr. Holdworth's factory;
Cefripayy Inkti the ust or Mt. Holdtworth's engine; do not
want .1t ndw j PO,nhdl. or 30,00C11. *ere eipended Upon
pipes; the l.ying of which Corrattent.'ed in 1807; "and
only terminted last wed: ;" cannot say host. .inueb
was paid for pipes bp to 1812 ; the accounts are so
kept as not to sh )W that, as witness believes ;
he does not examine the old books; there wily be a statement
of such experts,. To houses at 50 feet elevation above the
Clyde, 10 hours' supply is given{ it is proposed that at en
elevation of 135 feet, not le s than nine hours' supply shall be
afforded, giving 80 gallons at each house. A greater do
will be Vivcn by the preset.t fill; they are bound to do this
by the Bill ; at pr, sent there is no limit to the supply.
An objection was made by Mr. Andrews as to the course of
Mr. M`Neil's cross examination.
The room was cleared, when the division of the Committee
was in favour of the course of the Learned Advocate. Exa-
mination resumed :

The Company require no powers from Parliament to lower
their rates. In 1829 the dividend was 3/. 15s. per share. In
18:30 it was the same amount. This gives an average per cent.,
upon the capital iii.vestecl, of Si. and one-seventh ; during a
portion of the period it might be 61 per cent. The main
pipes are to be constantly charged twenty-four hours, to be
resjrtcd to in c.tse of fire. In cases of fire at a distance from
the main pipe, say a thousand yards, if the pipes
be on a level, the supply will be instantaneous; if at
one hundred and fifty feet above the Clyde, it might
take a few minutes, not longer - there are mains upon every
level, in the principal streets—they arc always charged ; an
instant supply may be had in those streets, witness thinks,
day and night, in case of fire ; the mains will be charged
constantly. not higher than Blythswood-square ; a partial sup-
ply is carried on to Garnet-hill; a reservoir is intended there ;
with hotels, bath-houses, &c., no rates are fixed ; they will de-
pend upon private bargain ; the present Bill compels the Com-
pany to give all the supply which the factories of Glasgow may
want, at fixed rates ; not more than 71. 10s. per annum on the
low service, and 151. on the high service, for not less than
1,000 gallons, to be supplied daily : if 3,000 gallons, the charge
will be in proportion.
A conversation then took place between Mr. Andrews and
Mr. Sandford on the one hand, and Mr. Hill and Mr. M'Neil
on the other, as to whether the books containing the names of
the shareholders, and the amount of their shares should be
produced before the Committee next day—Mr. Hill stating
that he should apply for their production, and Mr. Andrews
that he should oppose the application.
It being announced that the Speaker was at prayers, the
Committee adjourned until twelve o'clock next day.

COMMITTEE on BILL (\VEST SCOTLAND LIST).
(Lord WILLIAM BENTINCK in the Chair.)
Glasgow Waterworks Bill.-Mr. Mackain, the Secretary
of the Cranston-hill Company, again underwent a long exa-
mination this day, by Mr. Andrews.
He previously put in a book, cantaining a statement of the
estimated value of the abandoned works of the Company.
The points of Mr. Mackain's evidence were a repetition of
those use reported yesterday, viz., relative to the value
of the works of the Cranston Hill Company, and the
inadequate supply of water under the present system, as con-
trasted against that undertaken by the present 13111.
One thing in this evidence was remarkable, considering the
proverbial carefulness of our Scottish brethren ; for, whilst they
complain of an inadequate supply of water, it appears that, with
the exception of a few of the better class of houses, there
are no cisterns, so that a great portion of the supply of water
runs to waste through the pipes.
Mr. FINCH asked a few questions of the witness relative to
the capital and shares of the Company. The capital is (as stated
yesterday) 326,0001 , and there are 2,858 shares; this would
make the shares of the value of a little more than 841. ; the
money raised by loan is 46,3521. ; the amount raised by the sale
of shares is 180,488/. ; by the first Act the Company is limited
to 30,0001. as to loan ; and in 1812 a further sum of 30,0001.
was authorised to be raised; by another Act, in 1808, they were
authorized to raise 10,0001. ; the Company here raised by way
of loan 29,2201. ;
,that debt is now owing ; 109,4301. has
been raised by shares ; the present price of shares is from 801.
to 90/. per share ; the total amount of works nut in use is
16,480/. ; at the last general meeting of the Cranston-hill
Company, the draft of the present Bill was approved of by
resolution proposed, seconded and carried in the usual way ;
at„ this meeting 14 members of the Company were present ;-
these members held amongst them " several thousand pounds
in shares" according to the best of witness's belief.
Mr. Wilson, late Secretary to the Glasgow Waterworks
Company, was next called, and examined by Mr. Sandford,
of the Scottish Bar, in support of the 13111.
Witness stated the capital of the Company at 326,0001.
The Shares are in number 2,888. The average of their
first value was 12/. The Company sold a great many 'shares
at a premium ; the debt now due is 46,3501. ; the interest of
this debt is paid before any dividend is made in shares ; it
would take about 650 shares of the Cranston Hill Company to
pay it's own debt ; the proposed Bill will enable the Company to
supply more water at a cheaper rate ; the supply is very
variable, according to the altitudes of houses ; 16 hours supply
will be given by this Bill upon the lower level; about 32,000
persons occupy houses under the rent of 101. per an.; 53. is
the lowest rate of water charge, and 10s. is added for every
increased rental of 101.-( Witness here put in a paper contain-
ing a scale of charges)-The renters of 4/. and 5/. a year pay
7s. Water-rate, andb they will by the proposed Bill pay but 4s. ;
so that the saving of 3s. will be in the pockets of the lower
ranks of the inhabitants; the working ofthe engines vary in time
according to the season of the year and other circumstances.
A supply of sixteen hours water, would take about seventeen
hours working of the engines. The supply will be greater in
every level of the city of Glasgow by the proposed Bill.
Linder the present system no extension of supply can be afforded,
the present Bill will afford every facility. In cases of fire, too,
there will be an ample supply of water, according to witness's
belief, to be kept in mains constantly charged ; the main-pipes
go nearly to the highest level; the present system wastes a
great deal of water, by reason of the people leaving
open their pipes ; only a few people have cisterns ;
art additional power of engines will be required ;
no present engine ought to be worked more than 10 or 12
hours a day; a longer time seriously injures them; besides a
double set of men would be requisite for 24 hours supply ; and
the capital must be larger.
Cross-examined by Mr. HILL -Shares sold by the Glas-
gow Company have been sold at a premium ; the
Company is a good concern ; 5/, per cent. rate open
the higher rented houses was charged ; but many of
the smaller ones were charged 71 10s. per cent. ;
when the increase took place in 1831, I recollect telling some
parties (not Mr. Pattison), that I thought the cause of this
rise was loss and reduction of profit to the Company ;
in the years of 1828, 1829, and 1830, the average
Tate was higher .than afterwards ; in 1830 the revenue of the
'Glasgow Company was 14,350/. ; in 1834 it was 13,7451.,
,being 500/. less, although the tenants had increased; in 1831
the rating was 5/. per cent. ; after 1831 it was lowered to 3/. 10s.
per cent. This was not a matter of choice. The Company
were driven into it by the competition bete een the two
Companies as to rates. Witness was secretary for five
years. The Cranston Hiil Waterworks were established
about two years after the Glasgow. The present Bill will
prevent the waste of water ; to prevent it by a person going
round to watch time pipes, so that they be closed. Some
measures have already been taken to prevent such waste.
Punishing clauses for waste are in the existing Act. Further
means will be taken, witness believes, to effect the prevention
of \Neste ; the public wells will be less in number ; but
that will cause no diminution in the supply ; in many
parts the supply will be much greater ; cannot say if
five hours supply of water is not sufficient ; and yet
that time is proposed, by the present Bill, to be increased ;
some people may think that time enough, and some may not ;
some parties have complained of the time, and on that account
the Company proposed to increase it ; parties would not ask for
an increased time, if they were satisfied with the five
hours' supply. Thinks the supply " has hitherto been
sufficient, without cisterns, excepting where cisterns have
been used." Witness has seen many cisterns in Blytheswood
square arid ; in Glasgow the rich people live in tile
higher regions, the poorer in the lover; no compulsion exists
as to charging mains for firs a ; a clause is proposed by the present
13111 to that effect, with an arrangement with the Insurance
the price of shares is at present 75/. or 80/. ;
Compani( a ;
they were in 1828-9 as high as 1101. ; cannot tell the cause
of that rise ; some shares have been sold at 80/., witness be-
lieves lately ; witness is not secretary and manager of the Com-
pany now ; has ceased to be so since the Ist of June, 1837 ;
in 1834, the Company sold shares at 90/. ; prior to May, 1833,
the price was 60/. ; the two Companies together succeeded in
preventing the operation of Mr. Locke's Act applying to Glas-
gow ; doss not know if a particular clause in that Act excepted
Glasgow from its operation ; never read the Act.
Mr. Satenronn objected to the course of Mr. Hill's cross-
examination of the witness, in referring to the minutes of the
meetings of the Company, which the Learned Advocate con-
tended was not a mere refreshing of the memory of the wit-
ness, but introducing new matter.
An argument took place upon this between Mr. HILL and
Mr. SANDFORD, after which the room was cleared. On our
re-admission the Chairman announced the decision of the
Committee that the witness was allowed to refer to the book
of minutes.
Cross-examination resumed. The shares are lower now than
they were at one period of the competition between the Com-
panies; the Glasgow Company have had very trifling loss in
money expended upon experiments; this loss is under 5,000/. ;
it is not known at what period that sum was expended ; has
heard that the Cranston Hill shares are at 71. each ; in 1834
the average value was from 80/. to 901. ; say 85/. ; two-
fifteenths of that sum is 111. 6s. 81 ; 2,883 at 80/. would
be 245,4801. The witness went on to state that although the
rates are unequal, they are not unfair; thinks a surveyor
appointed by the Company batter than one appointed by
the inhabitants ; witness has known Government Surveyors
very much against the rates of the Company. The
Water Company in Edinburgh, do not get sufficient rates,
owing to the proceedings of the Police Commissioners there ;
the Water Companies in London do not compete with one
another ; the Surveyor of the Glasgow Company is paid
partly by a salary and partly by a commission on the amount
of rates ; thinks the Surveyor has no interest on that account
in making the rates as high as he can; the population is
increasing se much that the present supply of water is not
adequate. Demand sometimes beyond the supply, at other
times vice versa. The engines formerly worked longer; this

was sei•etal years tigo ; perhaps this might be for a few
months only: The compact between the two Compani-s
Wag entered into in 1852. The rates were doubled on the Ist
lure ; the present system is arbitrary as to rates; the Com-
pany has bortowk'd about 46,000/. ; no estimate of the ex-
pense of the new undertaising has been male ; yet the Company
has applied to Parliament ; they want mote engiwts, pipes, and
tHettoirs; it is not determined where the resertoirs shall be ;
witness t;;ili in tienlyn in 1834, when a Bill of this Com-
pany was before the Housd. Cannot speak. as to a resolution,
at that time, of the Committee. The Committee upon the
Bill threw out the decision of the Committee on the petition
against having two rates of charge for water.
The Speaker being at prayers, the Committee adjourned
until tskelve o'clock on Friday.

MANCHESTVII, BOLTON, AND BURY CANAL
AND RAILWAY BILL (LANCASTER LIST).
Mr. WILSON I'ATTEN in the Chair.
Some of the elattEi?s uponthis Bill were opposed on Mon -
dq, but they had been Agreed to between the Counsel, when
the Bill passed through the Committee without further oppe-
stion, when the Bill was signed by the Chairman, who n,ti-
mated his intention to report it to the House.