The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

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which should not invade the Church rights, and leave an open-
ing to let in other evils of greater magnitude.' Whatever could,
or could not, however, be done upon this subject, he thotight
they must be all agreed that it should be legislated upon in the
absence of every angry feeling.—(Hear I-)—Ft appeared to hirri
that this Petition was very little. applicable to the discussion'
which had grown out of it, and t'nerefoie it was evklent hOw
necessary it was that they should be on their guard in ap-
proatthing. the subject. But with regard to any measure of re-
lief, either they must take away the potatoe tythe from parts of
Ireland or from the whole. Whatever they did of this kind, it
could be pro tanto an invasion of the property of the Church ;
and if they began there, who could tell where they would end.
The landlords would not be safer, and he never could consent
to the establishment of a bad principle for the removal of some
particular evil. His opinion of the matter was, that the great
mischief was to be found in the heavy exaction of rent, and if
the landlords would not assist them in their endeavours to re-
move the pressure of distress; they would be of no use. The
clergyman hail a very heavy task ; for the landlord went bcfore.
I him and he generally came upon a destitute tenant. He had
thought himself called upon, in performance of his duty, to
state his opinion in candour, and from a wish not to be mrsun-
derstead.
Sir N. COLTHURST extr4ssed a hope that the Tythe Sys-
tem would be brought before-Parliament this Session, and that
it would come from his Majesty's Ministers. With reference
to the opinion expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman below
him. (Mr. Plunket), he hoped when the question came to be
settled that the Irish Landed Gentlemen would be found to be
Liberal. `
Mr. D,AWSON never could consent to touch the Church
property, and he firmly believed that the whole evil attributed
to the tythe system, was to be found in the rapacity of the
landlords. In the transaction which had been discussed, if any
one was to blame, it was clearly the Gentleman who resisted
the just claims of the Clergyman, and he had no doubt it would
be found in every diftputed case of the same kind, that it was
the landlord who was to blame.

• Mr. LECHER said, that in his part of the country it was
the Tyche Proctor that caused all the disturbances. At the
same time there was something 'in the state of the Gentry,
which called for the interference of the House. In his own dis-
trict the Clergyman and the landlord had acted in a manner as
exemplary as possible.
Sir H. PARNELL could not agree with the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Prlr. Plunket) in his opinion of the con-
duct of Irish landlords. He considered the effect of tithes to
be very injurious from the tendency they had to increase the
produce of land.'
Colonel TRENCH wished for some altefation in the tithes-
system; and was of opinion that this system' might be ef-
fected without injury to the interestaef the; church, for which
he felt perhaps more affection than any other Member of that
House.
_ Mr. R. MARTIN returned his best thanks to the Hon.

Member for Sligo for bringing this subject before the House.
He was not of opinion that any adequate excuse had been
set up for the conduct of the Clergy, in exacting tithes as they
had recently done. In Sligo tithes had never before been ex-
acted as they had been lately. In sorne cases the tithes were
considered in the bidding for the rent, and the rent and their
amount subtracted from the sum paid as rent, but this was not
so with respect to the tithes on potatoes, which he regarded as
a monstrous exaction. The proposition which had been made
by an Hon. Gentleman, that tile Protestant landlords should pay
the tithes, liberal as it was, could not be acted upon till the land-
lords had been consulted. He, for one, would cheerfully agree
to it if it would do good, but this he feared would not be the
case, as the land relieved from that burden would be ik.t up
to auction and sold accordingly, and the same rents would be
exacted from the former classes -which were now paid. He
agreed with the Attorney-General from Ireland, that the evil
arose more from•the exactions of rent than from tithes or
any thing else. The course taken in, Ireland, when land was
to be sold, was to announce by advertisement that so many
hundreds or thousands of acre of land were to be sold on such
. a day to the highest and most solvent bidder, and no preference
given to any person. He would ask, if such advertisements
were ever seen in England ? No regard was had in Ireland to
an old occupant of the land to be sold, or to ai,y other circum-
stance that should give one person a preference over another,
but the highest and most solvent bidder was all that was re-
garded. To chew how some of the Irish landlords acted,
(though he did not mean to speak against them- generally,) he
would state a fact which had come to his 'knowledge. The
agent of a Gentleman. whOm he could name, went over 'a part
of the country with which he (Mr. R. Martin) was acquainted,
when a poor man came to him from a hovel, such as no Gen-
tleman in that House would suffer his pig to sleep in. The
man offered the agent lOs. who, starting back, exclaimed,—
" Good God, I cannot take 10s. from yr.a, I would rather give
you lOs. How is it possible that you can make up your rent
—how do you live—Have you any land ?" The poor man re-
plied—" I live by begging. I have not a morsel of land ; but
as this hovel is within a few yards of the road by which people
pass to bathe in the salt-water, my landlord says', the more
wretched I appear, and the more miserable this hovel, the more
able shall I be to pay him for it a rent of forty shillings a-year."
The agent refused to take the ten shillings from a man who said
he was a beggar, and preferred paying it himself. He (Mr.
R. Martin) again returned thanks to the Hon. Member for
Sligo, for bringing this subject before the House, as he was con-
fident that the present discussion would not fail to put a stop to
the practice of extorting certain tithes which till lately had not
been demanded for centuries past.
Colonel BUTLER defended the Irish landlords, and main-
tained that they had not merited the severity with which they
had been treated.

Mr. R. MARTIN explained.
• .Mr. CUI3TEIS said, in some instances the tithes in this
country,produced more than the rent, as the tithes were paid,
while the rent was not. The distress which existed in some
parts of England was equal to that represented to have been
experienced in Ireland, and he thought any measure directed
for the relief of Ireland ought to extend to this country.
Mr. GRATTAN thought the tithes system demanded the
most serious consideration of Parliament, as they were the con-
stant subject of disputes in Ireland. lie protested against re-
presenting the landlords to be the cause of the existing distress.
Mr. HUTCHINSON said, when an Ron. Gentleman con-
tended that no measure of relief ought to be framed for Ire-
land which was not applicable to England, he would wish that
Hon. Member to visit some districts in Ireland before he re-
peated that sentiment. After visiting some of the most dis-
tressed countries in and out of Europe, he Hutchinson)
did not know where to find misery like that which at present
prevailed in the Western arid Southern parts of Ireland. If
the Hon. Gentleman inquired into the subject, he would find
in many instances a man with a wife and several children, who
after working every day in the year to support his family on
potatoes and water (nothing better) would not have remaining
ten shillings tq purchase animal food or clothing. He did riot
believe it could be proved that 5,000 people were in this mise-
rable situation in England. He admitted the evil to arise in
part from the conduct of the landlords in Ireland.
- After.a few further remarks from Mr. Domnacre Bnovvri,
Mr. CtRTEIS, Mr. S. COOPER, Mr. GOULBURN, and Sir 0:
NivrPonT, the Petition was read,_ and ordered to be printed.