The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-16 00:00:00

This bad been deckled, it twas true ; and the Noble
Lord referred to the present amendment and the
discussion upon it as to a matter already decided.
Now, he would ask, bad this any relation what-
ever to the question whether there should be a union of
boroughs ? Was not the essence of the motion of his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. W. Wynn), that schedule C
should take precedence of A and B, this,—that disfran •
chisement was arbitrary and doubtful, and might depend
on the extent to which enfranchisement woi carried ?

This was the first question, and the House decided that
enfranchisement should not take the precedence. What
was the next question ? It was that moved by the Right
Hon. Baronet, and certainly the Right Hon. -Baronet was
the best judge of his own motion and its object. The Hon.
Baronet (Sir A. Agnew) who voted with Ministers against
the amendment of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir Robert
Peel) asked him (Sir Robert Peel) before the division,
whether, by voting against him on that amendment, he
should preclude himself from moving the amendment now
before the Committee? The answer was, that his amend-
ment was still open, whichever way he voted. This
showed the understanding at least at that (the Opposition)
side of the House, as to the distinct character of the two
amendments. The House was then about to decide whe-
ther there should be any disfranchisement. It had de-
cided that there should, but it had not decided to what
extent that disfranchisement should go. It had not said
what boroughs should be disfranchised in the whole or in
part. The second division, then, only established that the
general principle should take place, but it went no farther.
Now the motion of the Hon. Baronet (Sir A. Agnew)

was only a corollary to that principle. It went thus far—
that the disfranchisement should not be of the general

and sweeping character contemplatetl by the Bill, but
that in certain cases there should be an union of the bo-
roughs ; and unless they went on some such principle, it
was impossible they could make any progress in the Bill.
But the Learned Lord called this a revival of the discussion

on the general principle of the Bill, and c..11e41 it a debat-
ing of that principle at every turn. Now he would ap-
peal to the candour of the Noble Lords opposite, and ask
whether this question about the union of the boroughs
was not a new question ? The Learned Lord wa•, how-
ever, pleased to term it a strange, unprecedented, and fan-

, .
tastical scheme ; but, whatever there was strange, unpre-
cedented, and fantastical iu the scheme, belonged not to
the Hen. Baronet, but to the 13111 introduced by his Ma-

jesty's Ministers—(Cheers from the Opposition)—for if
the Hon. Baronet could have postponed his amendment to
a few clauses farther in the Bill, he would have found the
same principle adopted. He would have found a union of
boroughs and adjoining places. He would have found
Sandwich including Deal ; Penryn including Falmouth ;
and so on with the other unions of the same kind. All
the Hon. Baronet would have to do, would be to put his
unions in schedule C of the Bill of his AI ,jesty's Minis-
ters, and then this strange, unprecedented, and fantastical
scheme would become the ground-work of the happiness
of the nation—the hope of the people—the sure founda-
tion of the prosperity of England.—(Cheers from the
Opposiain.) The Learned Lon!, in this comment on
the Bill, not only forgot what was done in the last two
divisions, but, by an unaccountable shortness of me-
mory, lie forgot the speech to which he rose to reply. The
argument used by his (Mr. Croker's) Hon. Friend was
this—that the argument of the Noble Lord (John Russell)
would be correct, if the boroughs were to bit left in the
same state with respect to constituency, as at present ;—if
Beeralston was to be left with only one voter, and Dewnton
with only nine ; but, said his Hon. Friend, these boroughs
are to have a new constituency, which will take them out
of the class of nomination boroughs ; and if they are not
so, then what becomes of schedule B?"—(Cheers fium
the Opposition.) This was the argument of his Hon.
Friend ; but he repeated the question, were there no no-
mination boroughs in schedule B?—(" No.") He did not
catch the eye of the Hon. Member who cried " No," but
he would watch, and probably find him, and no doubt
would have his vote against even the partial disfranchise-
ment, for lie was anxious to save all he could out of this
Bill.—(" Hear," and a laugh.) But why should he rest
merely on such chance support when he might go to a
higher and more certain authority ? Did the Committee
recollect the speech of the Noble Lord (John Russell)?
He (Mr. Croker) hail not a bad memory, and he remem-
bered that one of the great arguments in support of this
Bill was, that it would destroy nomination. Then if no-
mination was to be destroyed in those boroughs in sche-
dule B, why place them in that schedule to be half dis-
franchised ? or was there any one of them in which no-
mination was still to exist ? If so, why not place it in
schedule A ?

Mr. PORTMAN—Lyme Regis will cease to be a no-
mination borough if this Bill passes.
Mr. CROKER—The Hon. Member for Dorsetshire did
certainly understand the Bill.--(Hear, and laughter.)
The Hon. Member from the rear ranks gave a voluntary
explanation of what seemed a matter of doubt to so many.
lie told them that Lyme Regis would cease to be a nomi-
nation borough ; why, so would they all cease to be : but
then, why vote for this schedule B, if they were not to he
nomination boroughs any longer ? But it was only a
waste of time to dwell further upon this point. He
would ask, however, if boroughs which would cease to
be nomination boroughs at the passing of this Bill, were
to have the franchise extended to other places, why not
adopt the same principle with respect to the boroughs in
schedule A ? or why diminish the number of Members in
those boroughs in schedule B ? He would take, for in-
stance, the borough of Aldeburgh, with which he was
connected, hut on which he meant to raise no question, as
it was within the line of population marked out. But
Mahon was to be retained. It was not one of those pa-
ralytic boroughs which were stricken on one side, hut
Halton had not a sufficient number of voters to give it a
place under the Bill, and accordingly the Parliamentary
Commissioners would have to mount their nags and ride
round the adjoining district to complete the number.
But he would venture to say, that if those Commis-
sionersh ave is wereinuth tsoh
rrti
edre
distancefrortio
rAldeburgh,idthanr itheyudmas:
lotto.' Ind,
to complete the requisite number of voters ; and when
that number had been completed the electors would con-
sist of independent voters. lie would leave it to lion.
Gentlemen
of Halton?menoppo
opposite to
Learnedstatewhe Lordthertl talked ,
samelt,lf a,idn
thing could
be g
cipher to cipher to make a number, and of babe to babe
to make a man, to illustrate the absurdity of taking seve-
ral small places to make one borough. He owned that he
was at first surprised at such a metaphor as that of adding
babe to babe, coming front one who was so complete a
master of metaphors as the Learned Lord, and the'Learned
Lord must not wonder that so excellent a judge as he was
in these matters should have so many eyes fixed on him
in the use of thorn. lie bad listened to the Learned Lord's
use of the metaphor of the babes, and was at a loss to find
the paint of it till be saw the foundation on which it rester!,
saanedr,elooofkil atintlniante,ehnet:.ls(acthoenercse
arentind
dnl,wer of
gliax mar.) lls;
would, however, leave the massacre and the Learned Lord
to his partiality for one set of boroughs, and his proscription
of another set, with only this remark, that if the franchise
in those boroughs was not to be extended to the ten-pound
householders, the argument of the Learned Lord would
be correct ; but having made that extension, he must
say the argument was quite puerile. He would now
come to the question.—(Cheers from the Ministerial
side.) He had waited for that cheer, for these kind of things
were pleasant, and he would now inform the Committee
that in his remarks he had followed the Learned Lord
step by step, and word by word, almost too literally, con•
sidering that the Learned Lord rose to shorten the debate.
--(Cheers from the Opposition.) But he must also say
that he did not originate the question, but when he found
such a strange, unprecedented, and fantastical plan as the
Learned Lord had described a part of this Bill, though be
applied the terms only to the amendment,—when he found
that plan defended by one of his great intelligence and
sound judgment, by an appeal to majorities, he was dis-
posed to say that—
. Half a patriot half a coward grown,
" I fly from petty tyrants to"—
he would add, though it would not make out the rhyme—
to the Bill, for refuge. There was in the Bill something
of a conservative principle, though it was very little; but
wishing to add to that principle, and choosing rather such
a precarious existence as that of Sandwich and Deal in
preference to total disfranchisement, he must support the
amendment of tke lion. Baronet.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.)
Mr. D. W. Haavcv and Lord JOLIN liiissuu, rose
at the same moment. There were loud cries for the lat-
ter, but he gave way, and the farmer addressed the House.
He said it was not his intention to detain the House at
any length. lie did not wish to take up the time by fol-
lowing tke ingenious remarks and witty sarcasms of the
Right lion. Gentleman who had just sat down ; but it
might be worth while to call home the scattered thoughts
of many Members to the real question before the Corn.
rnittee, from which it seemed to be the wish of the Rig ht
lion. Gentleman to divert them. An Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Sir C. Wetberell)—and he was followed by
several others in the same strain.—had last night attacked
Ministers for their silence, and it was not until six or
seven had followed on the same ground of attack that any
Hon. Gentleman at that (the Ministerial) side were found
to grapple with them.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Yet this evening, when an Hon. Member at this (the
Ministerial) side rose to enter upon the question, he was

'‘

taunted with every kind of svcasrn.—(Ciies of " No,
❑o.") He maintained that it was so. Now what was the
amendment, for objecting to which on the ground that its
principle had been already decided, the Learned Lord bad
encountered so much of the Right [lon. Gentleman's sar-
casm? It was one which went to the principle of the
Bill. What wao the decision of last night? that schedule

A. should stand, and that one or more boroughs should
be included in it ; but the present amendment would
destroy schedule A, for if you decide that there
shall be this union, you decide against all disfranchise-
ment. The principle of the Bill was disfranchisement
for the purpose of destroying the nomination boroughs,
but how could any man grapple with this and not extin-
guish the principle of schedule A by its adoption ? If
his Majesty's Ministers were to recast the Bill,—if they
were to begin it anew, it was probable there were some
parts of it which would be introduced in a different form:.
(Cheers from the Opposition.) He was sure that men of
their great political sagacity and statesmanlike views—
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)--he certainly did not
compare them with the statesmen at the opposite side Of
the House, whose amendment of last night was not un-
derstood even by their own friends, and which amend-
ment, if it had been carried, would have made nonsense
of the clause.--(Hear, hear.) But he would repeat, that
men of great sagacity and sound views, and who had so
deservedly obtained the approbation of the country by
their conduct with respect to this Bill,—such men would,
no doubt, avail themselves of all the intelligence and infor-
mation they had obtained in the suggestions of friends and
the opinions delivered through the Press, and would alter
seine parts of the Bill if they had to remodel it ; but they
were so circumstanced, that they could not adopt that

. _
course at present without a delay, which ought not to be
allowed to intervene. But the principle of the Bill would
not be altered, and that principle for which the people

called was the destruction of the nomination boroughs.—
Let Hon. Gentlemen, then, not be led aside from that
principle by the tortuous ingenuity of the Right lion.
Gentleman opposite. If they went to remodel the
Bill they would delay it to a period which must risk
its passing, or if they were to adopt the amendment
of the Hun. Baronet, they would have a constituency of
nominators, not a constituency of voters, and the future
candidate would not have to address himself to the people
but to repair to the drawing-room of some wealthy nomi-
nator who would have to decide upon his qualifications.—
(Hear, hear.) There were, he admitted, some clauses in the
Bill which he did not approve of, for every Reformer had
his own view ; and he believed if twelve men Fat upon the
question they might be all found differing as to the means
though concurring in the end and general principle. But
he did not intend to offer any opposition to the Bill because
of his objections to some clauses. On the contrary, he
was prepared to give it his support, as a great boon to the
country. If he were disposed to run any risk of the Bill,
he mi6ht move his own views in the shape of amend-
ments, and certainly some of them would make a change
in the Bill of no slight importance ; for instance, one
of them would be, that no place or places should return a
Member with a constituency of less than one thousand ;
but he had no intention of making any such amendments.
Ministers had difficulties enough to struggle with, natural
as well as artificial, without the addition of those which
would arise from the various suggestions of friends ; or,
as they had seen, the attempted inoculations of insidious
enemies. He did hope, then, that those who were the
friends of the Bill would go on, and not allow themselves
to be turned aside by the smiles, or sneers, or taunts, or
intimidations of their opponents. It would, no doubt,
give those opponents great consolation, amongst their other
consolations, on Sunday next to say, that after the struggle
of a %rock they had prevented the strangulation of one rot-
ten borough. He hoped the friends of the Bill would per.
severe, and would succeed that night in destroying one
rotten borough, and that in the course of the next week
the others would fall by the same example.
Mr. A. BARING trusted that every Hon. Member
would persevere in stating hie views and have them dis-
cussed,
proceed with y that they
man
ny s
a y could
that hopethis
amendment was not supported by good argument ? t was
in
regularity.that w a yWoonul
What-
ever else was in it, it was not unreasonable. It might be
bad, but there was nothing in it to warrant the assertion
that it was a waste of time. The principle which it in-
volved had been sanctioned by some of the best and most
intelligent Reformers, and amongst others by the Noble
Lord who had introduced the Bill. It was absurd, then,
to object to the amendment that it was intended for delay.
The bona fide objections to the Bill must be hearth, and
they would be gut through much sooner if Hon. Gentle-
men did not rise and protest against them as a waste of
time. If Hon. Members who had amendments would
move them, and confine themselves to arguments referring
to them, they would get on better. The Bill was full of
the same sort of arrangement as that proposed by the
Hon. Baronet—namely, the union of boroughs : and when
the boroughs were united, and the new constituency of
101. householders thrown into them, they could no longer
be said to be merely the representation of individuals of
influence. He thought that the Noble Lord bad no right
to complain of this amendment, as being ca'culated to con-
tinue the present system of nomination boroughs.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought if the other side of the House, instead
of wrangling about which Hon. Gentleman it was who
was wasting the time of the House, would only conde-
scend to hear the propositions which were made, they
would then have some chance of epming to a conclusion.--
(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL certainly thought that if any Hon.
Gentleman had a plan of Reform to propose, the proper
time at which to propose it was when the Bill came into
Cornrdttee. He, however, did not think that the House
would be inclined to agree to either of the plans of Reform
which had been produced to-night, because their authors
had failed to explain what their effect would be, and what
advantage they would possess over the measure proposed
by his Majesty's Government.—(Hear.) He had no
doubt that the Hon. Baronet (Sir A. Agnew) was sincere
in his desire for Reform, but he thought that the motion
which the Hon. Baronet had made was not quite con-
sistent with the general desire entertained, he believed, by
the Hon. Baronet to support the Bill of Ministers.—
(Hear.) The Hon. Baronet could not have failed to see
that those who approved of his plan, instead of being in
favour of Reform, were the enemies of any Reform what-
ever.—(Cheers.) He confessed that he had thought that
the question respecting the disfranchisement of the
boroughs in schedule A had been substantially settled by
the decision of the House last night, upon the amendment
moved by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth to
leave out the word " each."—(Hear, hear, hear.)
What consolation would it be to the proprietor of
Old Sarum, to possess, in lieu of the unlimited
power he had at present of nominating two Members
of Parliament, a vote in the choice of a representative in
common with 200 or 300 persons? It was said Scotland
afforded an example of the union of burghs; but since the
union of Scotland with England, Ireland had been joined
to this country, and there the close boroughs were not
united, but entirely extinguished; therefore the later pre-
cedent of the two was in favour of Ministers.—(Hear )
He admitted that by the Ministerial Bill, certain places
would be joined together, for the purpose of sending Mem-
bers to Parliament, but they were populous districts, and
could nut fairly be put in compari-on with these small bo-
ave
:telliibenoetrffiooettilegtbh ofos
rto join
roughs.—(Hear, hear.) Ile d not impute to the Hon.
he
Int
shouldi
d ai
district
ttErtalii
take
eaet r hear.)agbc:ert,oiltigihnie:lrs
Baronet any desire to create unnecessary delay, but if his
ion
't°wlofittiohrie'
amendment
from
the
wereitihe ec
destructiona r
patronsr i edi
r
itaHnonggede thetwif,uea al
a, het,iiirdi),
sltecieruai:srol
syrmiyolnotti •
ext
on
electionoen oieolprl
t
and disappoint the country of those tffeets which they
s
f
same
the
ex wouldpe expected enableed f ro
Baronet opposite, that while it was expedient that a fair
e
could be no advantage •••
• keeping the public mind in sus-
pense.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL said that the advantage which hail been
taken of the declaration which he made the other night as
to the course of proceeding he should
adopt with respect
to this Bill, was enough to discourage him from soaking
any similar declaration attain. What be bad proposed to
do was, to take the opinion of the House on the principle
of disfranchisement in general, instead of troubling the
House with a division on the case of each particular bo-
rough. The Hon. Baronet's (Sir A. Agnew's) amend-
ment had been given notice of two or three dap before.
It was not made in concert with hint (Sir R. Peel) for
the Hon. Baronet did, in fact, vote against the amend-
ment which he moved last night. But. time ought to be
given to discuss, whether the disfranchisement should be
total or partial?—(Hear.) He should pass over the taunts
of the lion. Member for Colchester.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought he could afford to do so.—(Cheers.) He was
quite sure that they would never come to the details of
this Bill if they were constantly diverted by considerations
of a personal nature.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member
for Colchester said, that he had moved the omission of
the word " each," in order to make nonsense of the
clause. That would generally he the effect of mov-
ing the omission of certain words from a clause; but
it would have been perfectly competent for any
gentleman to have made serve of the clause, by
moving that six or seven of the boroughs in schedule
Abe retained. He Was not a strenuous supporter of the
Hon. Baronet's amendment ; but when this alternative was
offered him, he should follow the course pursued by all

.

statesmen, and of two evils adopted the less one.—(Hear,
hear.) There was another line of conduct which he might
adopt—that of leaving the House altogether ; but that
was not a course consistent with his duty as a Member of
' Parliament ; and he should therefore remain in his place
and try to amend the Bill as much as possible.—(Cheers.) ,
The Noble Lord had told the House, that at the time of
theamion of Ireland and England, the close boroughs were
disfranchised; but the Noble Lord had forgotten to men-
tion this important fact—that pecuniary compensation ac-
companied the disfranchisement.—(Hear, hear.) He
admitted, however, that there were at present great diffi-
culties in the way of pecuniary compensation, as related to
the public feeling on the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would be sorry if the Right
Hon. Baronet was discouraged from pursuing the course
he had so fairly marked out for him, in consequence of
any thing which had fallen from him (Lord J. Russell).
He had alluded to the motion which had been mails by
the Right Hon. Baronet, because it was last night aged
to be of great importance, and to-night described as being
of no importance at all.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRESHFIELD said, that allusion having been
made in the course of the debate to the borough of Pen-
ryn, he rose to declare most solemnly, that it was as free
from corruption as any open borough wbatever._(Much
laughter.) In support of this assertion he quoted the de-
claration made by Lords Lyndhurst and Eldon, that no
proof had been given in support of the Bill to disfranchise
that borough.

Mr. STANLEY should be sorry if the Right lion.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was discouraged from pursuing
that candid course of conduct which he had hitherto fol-

lowed. The Right lion. Baronet, though opposing the
Bill most decidedly, bad yet objected to it in a fair spirit,
and the gentlemen on his (the Min;sterial) side of the
House were anxious to meet his objections in the same
spirit of fairness.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
question before the Committee, it was true that in Scot-
land neighbouring burghs had been united for the purpose
of electing representatives; but how could the boroughs in
schedule A, which were distant from each other, be united
fora similar purpose ?—(Hear.)

Sir G. CLERK said that almost all the boroughs iri,
schedule A were situated in one or two counties in the'
southern or western part of the country, and therefore
might easily be united.—(Hear.) He should vote in
favour of the Hon. Baronet's amendment, for the reasons
stated by his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel).—(Hear.
Mr. CAMPBELL rose, amidst loud cries of " Ques-
tion," and " divide." He said that the places enumerated
in schedule A were the property of individual., who thereby
acquired the right of nominating Members of Parliament.
He would tell the House how the election for Gatton sys
managed. A solicitor went down there with half.a-dozen
friends in a post.chaise—(Loud laughter)—he meant half-
a-dozen piec.s of parchment, by the aid of which he was
enabled to elect two Members.—(Hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS was almost inaudible, in consequence
of the general cry of " que,tion," and " divide." He said
lie preferred the amendment to the clause as it stood at pre-
sent, and should therefore vote with the Hon. Baronet.
Sir A. AGNEW was understood to say that he had only
voted in favour of the second reading of the Reform Bill, in
the expectation that the amendment which he now proposed
would be adopted by the House.—(Hear.)
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were--
For the amendment 203
Against it
Majority
The first clause was then agreed to.
The proceedings, an account of which follows, were con-
ducted amidst great confusion, which at times rendered it
almost impossible to ascertain what was going on.
The CHAIRMAN said that the clause having been
agreed to, be would, according to the understanding which
prevailed on the subject, proceed to read the numbs of the
boroughs in schedule A which were to be disfranchised,
and would take the sense of the Committee upon each of
them. He then read from the schedule—" Aldeburgh/
Suffolk."

Mr. CROKER would not trouble the Committee to di'
videeon the question of disfranchising Aldeburgh. Like
his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) he would consider
the division which had takers place as applicable to tiLt
case of every borough which could not be clearly shown to
form an exception to the general rule established by the
Noble Lord opposite.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not propose to proceed
further to-night than the case of Aldeburgh. If the Right
Hon. Gentleman had any observations to make upon that
case, he might address them to the Committee now.
Mr. CROKER would not trouble the Committee then'
as the observations which he wished to address to the
Committee could be equilly well made when the case of
Orford should come under consideration. His object would
be to show that those two boroughs were in precisely time
same situation as some which the Noble Lord had united
and retained.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the Committee would
understand, that when the House should resume on T Lie'
day, the first word to be read from the schedule would he
the word " Appleby."
Sir T. FREMANTLE begged to ask the Noble Lord
by what test or rule the Committee was to decide with
respect to the boroughs to be disfranchised. The Noble
Lord had often before answered the same question, but
not satisfactorily.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not add to the information
which he had already given upon this point. When itnY
case occurred with respect to which there should appear
to be any difficulty, he would endeavour to explain the
grounds on which the Government considered the populs"
tion of the borough to be under 2,ooo.—(Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL would certainly press a division, as t 0
the principle, upon the case of one of time boroughs, which
clearly came within the line of 2,000.
Lord STORMONT and Lord VALLETORT addressed the
Committee several times, and on each occasion Lord J:
RUSSELL rose and replied, but the noise which prevail,'"
prevented any thing which was said from being heard'
The nature of the observations of the two Noble Lords will/
however, be ascertained by what fell from
Mr. G. KNIGIIT, who obtained a partial hearing'
He said that the Hon. and Noble Members who had Pre"
ceded him were anxious to know what the Noble PO'
master of the Forces meant by boroughs? In some in•
stances tire Noble Lord included the population of parish°
on which boroughs touched in the boroughs, and in other
he did not.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
principle on which the Bill proceeded was to disfrancld"'
boroughs whose population was under 9,000. It would be
for the Committee to apply that rule to each case al lc
came before them.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the question before the CO'
mittee appeared to him to be this—was Aldeburgh a rot-
ten borough ? Did any man doubt that the Marquis
Hertford sent two Members into the House for that W.;
rough ?—(Cheers.) Were the Committee, with this fie.
before them, to listen to special pleading and nisi pril
manwavring ?—(Hear, hear.) The people of Engl3°
insisted on having Reform ; they had sent in an over:
whelming majority, not of mock Reformers, but of re'l
substantial Reformers, who would not allow a rottea,
borough to be compared with the mighty city of VI
don, as had been done by the Hon. Member fit Launrece,
u
ton (Sir J. Malcolm), who said that he felt as nit', e
pride in being the representative of that place a'
would in being the representative of the wealthy
powerful city of London. The people insisted that t,(l
House of Commons should be reformed,—that it shot%
no longer respond to the wishes of the aristocracy or 30
oligarchy.—(Hear.) If Aldeburgh was a notninatii°,
borough, it ought to be disfranchised. He was not 0
posed to inquire minutely respecting the limits of l'oti!
boroughs. It Will sufficient for him to know that ti
were places in which the rieht of legislating for the Pe°l3;
of England was sold.—(Hear.) If people in that II(4!ib
were not familiar with such matters, they would start s'o,,
horror at contemplating the crime,—at the selling of t 5
privilege of making laws lin- life and death, and of lerY3lll'o
taxes which were put into the pockets of the very 113.-0,
who levied them.—(Cheers.) The thing bad become
stiffer •hle, and ought not to be borne for one, hour lunge,
Sir 11. PEEL said that the Hon. and Learned Geatici
man would put them quite at sea again. Ministers 630,
that the amount of population was to be the test of
id
franchisement, but the lion. and Learned Member '6
that the test was the amount of influence.
Sir J. MALCOLM said that the observation h
for
made, and to which the Hon. and Learned Member fe,
Kerry had alluded was this,—that he would, with revs'
rence to his own position in life and in that House, r3t1,,i4
di pond on the influence which assisted him in taking thy' in the House, than be in the situation of the 'Oro'
Alderman who represented the city of London, if the Ile oe
papers spoke the truth, —(Long continued cheers froth
Opposition.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER A ye'
sated these tedious discussions on hypothetical cases.l floc
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that it appeared he bad red
mistaken the Hon. Member for Launceston, who dec-tot
that he would rather be the representative of a rotte:joo
rough than the representative of the great city of %gel
to which the liberties of England were so much inuejie°
and which in the worst periods of our history had f'
round the Constitution. befor44
Mr. ATTWOOD again repeated the often--