The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-11 00:00:00

TITHES.

Lord KING, in presenting some more tithe petitions,
would take that opportunity of requesting same of the
Right Rev. Prelatt s to condescend to inform the House
and the country what plan they had to propose, as then it
would be known what the country had to look to on that
most important subject. In presenting the petitions on
last Monday, and in opening a debate on the question, he
had intended to argue it as a humble political economist,
and he had taken care not to give any opinion as to non-
residence and pluralities. These fruitful sources of dis-
cussion had been laid open by the over zeal of the Right
Rev. Prelates of the establishment. In particular, one
Right Rev. Prelate took occasion to charge the lay im-
propriators with the sin of contributing to non-residence,
and he emphatically declared that a Bill which had been
brought before Parliament to compel residence had been de-
feated by them, and converted into a measure giving I icility
to non-residence. A Noble Friend had asked the Right
Rev. Prelate, the day brfore yesterday, to what Bill .he
referred, and though the Right Rev. Prelate had given an
explanation, it did not appear to him, (Lord King) that
it was as full and as explicit as the House squired, and
as the subject probably admitted of. Ile thought he could
now give a better account of the fart, and though it was
twenty-five years ago, he could recollect that an active
attorney had brought several gui tam actions against per-
sons holding ecclesiastical preferment, and having the cure
of souls, for non-residence. That attorney did not con-
fine himself to those who were altogether non-resident
from a parish, but he attacked him who even lived in the
parish, but not in the parsonage house. These actions
caused great consternation in the Church, and civil, legal,
and ecclesiastical authorities set to work to devise means of
stopping them. The lawyers, civilians, and churchmen
struck their forehead, and forth sprung a Bill, which was
introduced into the other House by Sir Wm. Scott. This
Bill was sent to Oxford, to receive there what new lights
that learned University could bestow ; and at length it
W,S produced nominally to correct non-residence, but
was made so agreeable to the Church, that the lay inipro-
priators had no right to complain, and complain they cer-
tainly did not, That put him in mind of the strictures
which had been uttered on him by a Noble Friend at the
other side of the House. He recollected that no person
was more active on the Bill in question than the Noble
Lord, and also on the Curates Bill. His excitement on
those occasions was only equalled be the candour he had
displayed on Reform qu. stions, and he recollected him
sitting, night after night, on the borough of Grampound,
with the same energy which he had displayed on the
former occasion. The Noble E tri was inclined to bite
very hard, particularly now that he hated Reformers ;
and he had snapped at his fingers the other night, but he
did not bite as hard as he had done on other occasions.—
Still he paid every respect to his Noble Friend's sugges-
tions, and he hoped that they would be more consonant
to his own opinions on another occasion. He wished,
however, to ascertain from the Right Rev. Prelates if they
were in reality anxious that an investigation should take
place, and if they would agree to produce a return of all
the benefices under ecclesiastical bodies corporate or lay
patrons. That would bring the question to a test, and
he trusted that the Right Rev. Prelates would not refuse,
but as they had charged the evils of non-residence on the
lay-impropriators, they would give the House and the
country an opportunity of deciding who were really to
blame.—(Hear.) One of the evils of pluralities was, that
it increased the number of Curates ; and though the Noble
Earl had contended that they were a most active and in-
telligent class of men, arid though he believed that they
were so, still it was a bad lesson to teach the public that
the same duty which now cost the country so large a
sum of money, might be performed by Curates at one
quarter the expense. It was indeed a most dangerous
truth to establish, that in the Church, as well as
in lay affairs, the duty could be as well executed
by deputy as principal ; and he feared that 'the public
would expect the rule which was now acted upon in other
things to take place in the Church—uamely, to abolish the
income of the principal and increase the salary of the de-
puty.—(Hear.) With regard to non-residence, he begged
to call the attention of their Lordship% to a charge &li-
vered by the Bishop of Winchester, a;.4 he only regretted
that the Right Rev. Prela•e was not now in the House to
hear his approbation of it. The Right Rev. Divine said
that, " A parochial charge without a resident pastor was
an ecclesiastical solecism ;" and he also quoted a passage
of Bishop Gibson's, where the duties of a parish clergy-
man are admirably defined. He thought that the charge
delivered by the Bishop of Winchester reflected the
highest credit upon him, and he hoped that his feelings
were generally participated in. He (Lord King) hoped
that the question of tithes would he seriously taken up by
the Legislature. They were institsted in barbarous and
ignorant times, and they were totally unsuited to the pre
sent state of things. He would willingly submit the
question of a commutation of tithes to a Jury of twelve
honest men, not Churchmen, and he had no doubt that a.
verdict would be in his favour. With a view of streogth-
ening his opinions by those of a very able man, he would
read the words of a very distinguished person as to
tithes and property " If there be one natural right recog-
nised by all, it is the right of each succeeding race to the

earth and all its produea, and it was only held by partite!,
par individuals for the good of anciety.'; These were the
words of President Jefferson, and he considered they were
entitled to some value. He would conclude by laving the
petitions on the table against the present 'system of tithes.
Earl WINCHILSE k—Read, read.
The Clerk nal—this is a petition from the parish of
, in Cambridgeshire, against the assessed taxes.—
(Great laughing.)
Lord KING—Yes ; and against tithes.
The Clerk then read further, in which en alteration of
the tithe system was also prayed for.
The Earl cf WINCH ILSEA—However much he dee
p -ccatid the course which the Noble Baron was pursuir g,
woull he unwilling to withdraw from him the same indui-
eence which 1 e himself so often claimed ; stil', viewing
7he conduct of the Noble Baron, who had addressed their
Lordships night after night, as one which c mid not be
justified, lie felt called upon to protest against it. The
N tble Earl claimed credit for sincerity, but he could not
imagine how the Noble Lord could be sincere in the de-
c'aration that he was dtsirous to support the interests of
Vie Church at a time when he was so grievously mita-
vow ing to wound them —(Hear.) He asked him whe-
ther the personal attack which he had made on the Right
Rev. Prelates of the Church—(Cheers)—he would say
the invidious attack—(Cheers)—was a proof of that dis-
position ? He would ask him whether the contemptuous
manner in which he had spoken of the Church, and of
every thing connected with religion, was in unison with
Curt declaration 2—(Cheers.) Me put it to their Lord-
ships if the terms which the Noble Earl used was an evi-
dence only of a desire to correct the abuses of the Church,
and to strengthen the power of that religion which con-
ferred the greatest blessing on society ? (Hear.) It was
too clear that they were not ; and it but remained for hint
to hope that religion was not to be injured by these
attacks, and that the people of England would conti-
nue to think it, as they bad ever done, the only true
and solid groundwork for the faithful discharge of
every duty in priv tte life or to the country.—(Cheers.)
For his part he was determined not to sit quietly, and
tolerate those statements, which were calculated not.
only to be prejudicial to the interests of the Church,
but to the best interests of the country. He had been
in hopes that the speech made on a former evening by
a Noble Earl at the opposite side of the House would
have been more fully attended to by the Noble Baron, and
have made him pause before he renewed his sta►ements.
He agreed with all that had been said by the Noble Earl,
and was, with him, convinced that the Prelates of the
Established Church were most solicitous to advance every
passible improvement ; to enforce residence where they
could ; and he believed the whole country would join
them in declaring that the character of the Clergy stood
as high as that of any other class in the community.—
(Hear.) He had only to appeal, en their behalf, to the
general feeling which prevailed towards them in society.;
and would to God that the great body of the higher orders
possessed the same influence ! He would repeat that the
Clergy individually and collectively, conferred the greatest
good on the people by their character and influence ; and
he could bear testimony to the power they had in allaying
the irritation which had unfortunately prevailed in the dis-
turbed districts.—(Hear.)
Lord KING thought that the Noble Earl had made on
him a most disorderly attack, inasmuch as it was founded
on a misrepresentation of what he had said. The Noble
Earl had al•o made an unfair attack, because he (Lord
King) had set oat on that evening with a statene nt that
it had been his intention, in bringing forward these peti-
tions, to confine himself to the view that a political econo-
mist might take of the subject of tithes ; and that he was
forced into the topic of non-residence and pluralities by
the over-zeal of st me of the Right R v. Pre'ates. That sv„l
his recollection of the course he had pursued on the former
occasion, and be was strengthened in his belief by the
papers which report most accurately, and which concurred
in saying that be bad been confined to political economy.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose to order, and said,

if any thing could he more disorderly than the course
which the- Noble Baron had first pursued, it was that
which he was now about to enter upon ; and he put it to
their Lordships if it was not disorderly for any Noble
Lord to take notes of what was said on one evening, and
t r come down with a comment upon it on another. •
Lori KING—If the House decided that he was disor-
derly, without suffering him to exculpate himself, he sup-,
paced he had nothing to do but to submit. He felt that
the Noble Earl had greatly misrepresented him, and he
challenged him to quote any one word in all that he said
disrespectful to religion. If the Noble Earl judged that i e
was an enemy to religion only by what he had said in
that House, he begged leave to ask if he said any thing
more than to speak of abuses. The acquiescence in abuses
surely was not religion ; and surely it could not be the re-
ligion of the Noble Earl himself. He had contended that
pluralities were highly indefensible, and that many of such
advantages were possessed by those who should not have
them—namely, persons who were high in the Church.
He had abstained from other instances which he could have
no difficulty in bringing forward. He had the names and
the places by him, and if he were pushed to it he would
state them. He was asked by the Noble Earl if he had
no specific plan to offer. Why, he had given the House
a choice of three. There was one, a corn rent, suppose
one-fifth, by which the Church would have the benefit of
any rise in the value of produce, and certainly the disad-
vantage of any fall. The drift of all he had said was to
recommend prudence to the Church ; and, surely, as it
roust occur to every one that the property of the Church
was in danger, it was not wise to let it fall without notice.
He therefore had asked the heads of the Church to bring
forward some plan which would give permanent satisfac-
tion to the country. He had, in particular, asked for a
commutation of tithes; and in that respect he was sure
the Church could not stand against the opinion of the
country. Was it for that he was charged with having
made an attack on religion? Their Lordships would see
that such a charge was just as unfounded as if he bad been
accused of having made an attack upon the Noble Ead
himself.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said the Noble Earl had
gone much farther than he seemed to be aware of, fur he
had contended that the Prelates, in conjunction with the
University of Oxford, laid their heads together to defeat a
Bill intended to prevent non-residence, and to convert ;t
into a Non-residence Act. He put it to the House if that
was not an attack en the Church. There were also other
minor points which he could al to—such as the Noble
Earl's speaking of lawn sleeves.
Lord KING—I did not mention lawn sleeves.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA—Yes, three or four
years ago.
Lord KING—Oh, three or four years ago !
Lord WYNFORD felt, during the two or three nights
in which the Noble Earl had occupied their Lordships' at-
tention with those attacks on the Church, that it would
have been impertinent for him to have interfered while
there were Rev. Prelates in the House so much more com-
petent to meet him. But since the Noble Baron had con -
tinned his course, and seemed still determined to pursue
it, notwithstanding the great excitement which prevailed
in the country, and the ill effects which the Noble Baron
must be aware these irregular discussions would have in
adding to that excitement, he felt called upon to say a few
words, lest it might be supposed out of doors that the lay
Peers acquiesced in those statements, or participated in
the attacks.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the Noble Load had any
particular grievance to complain of, and a remedy for it to
propose, why did he not bring it regularly before the
House, with notice to the parties concerned ? But he had
come down night after night attacking the Right Rev.
Prelates, in defiance of every principle of English justice,
which ordains that he whose character is to be aitacked
should previously be warned of the charge.—(Hear.)—A
petition which called for a repeal of the assessed taxe., and
the abolition of the tithes, was surely not a ground-work
on which to build up charges about non-residence, and the
Bill to which he had alluded as nominally repressing, but,
in fact, extending that evil.—(Hear.)—The Noble Lord
in speaking of that Bill, had also thought proper to attack
Lot d Stowell, though he was absent from the infirmities
of age, and though his brother (Lord Eldon) was pre-
vented by illness fr9m being present to defend him.
Did the Noble Lord not know- of the absence of
both these Noble and Learned Lords? and if he did,
was this a time to bring forward such a charge,
without a single friend of Lord Stowell heing ap-
prised of his intention.—(Cheers.)—But it was fortu-
cnm-
psnciaectrxeei
life
ants:
arLecepal ryn,ntetroda
‘l,ll,(tnha,dt
atahnceis,ia:re'
ghreoilne which,
he in his
such
a manner as the Noble Baron could tint stand under.
(Hear.) It was most disorderly of the Noble Lord to
introduce topics so irrelevant to the motion which he had
before the House, and the more especially as they were
accompanied with reflections on the conduct and character
of the absent.—(Hear.) He hail also to complain of the
manner in which he had argued the question of tithes, and
of his attempting to set up that they were a tax on the
productive industry of the country. lie, however, ciiiil.l
tell him that tithes were no more a tax en productive
industry dean rent—(Hear, hear)—and he 111;g: it defend
on it that the same spirit which would destroy tithes
one week would annihilate the Noble Lord's right to ais
own property the next.—(Cheers.) The Noble Loire
ti
had quoted the words of Mr. Jefferson, thinking theyw_a :ei
coLclusive in his favour. It was the first time he
heard them, and the first time that he had agreed with a re-

publican—lris own opinion being as dissimilar as possible
from that school—but he could assure the Noble Lord
that Mr. J.'s language, instead of being with him, was de-
sit/edly an authority against all that he had urged.—
(Hear, bear. )—What Jefferson established was, that all
property was a creation of the law, supported by usage.
Property was the creature of prescription, as a lawyer
would call it; and if it were, let him ask the Noble Baron
which did he think was the oldest title—the tithe or pri-
vate right? Was their one among their Lordships who
could boast a title so sustained by law as the Church.—
(Hear, hear. s—The argument of the Noble Lord was also
fallacious in this respect. He supposed that if the tenant
got rid of tithe he would get rid of a burden to that ex-
tent; but the fact would be far otherwise. In that House
these arguments would produce no ill effect, but out of
doors it would be received as a truth, and he would, there-
fore, tell the Noble Lord—indeed he believed that every
occupier of land, of common judgment, knew enough to
tell him that the tenant would be better off than he was
now if the tithes were abolished.—(Hear.) It was id's
to think of giving the tithes to the public, for from the
public they never came, and to them they never, could
belong. They were bestowed by individuals for a service
which the Church did not fail to render. The Noble
Lord might be assured, if the day should come when the
tithe would be abolished, he would not give one quarter of
a year's purchase for his own property.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE knew that this subject,
from the notice given by a Right Rev. Pi elate, had at-
tracted the attention of the head of the Church; and he
wished, without adverting to the measure in prospect—the
details of which he had not beard—he would wish, he
said, that any amelioration of this kind should be under-
taken by the Right Rev. Prelates, and brought before
their Lordships with the sanction of the Church Esta-
blishment. Under these circumstances, it would be im-
proper for him, and useless now, to discuss the question of
political economy relative to the effect of tithes on agri-
culture, because the Bill to be introduced wou'd bring the
subject fully before their Lordships; and he trusted that,
when that measure came forward, it would be met calmly,
and without any disposition to attribute motives and with
that fitting regard to property (no one branch of which
could be separated from another) which should always go-
vern their Lordships' minds, and especially so on such a
subject as that of the Church Establishment, opportunities
of this kind would be fully afforded when this Bill was
brought forward. With respect to any charges against
individuals, he should pay a sorry compliment to the
Right Rev. Prelates if he deprived them of the opportu-
nity of having their conduct discussed; but he would
earnestly wish that, if charges were to be made, due
notice should be given, and that fair dealing should be
practised, of giving to all who were sought to be inculpated
fair notice that their conduct would be brought under dis-
cussion.

The Earl of RADNOR was not aware that his Noble
Friend had made any charge against any Right Rev. Pre-
late, either on this or the other night. Doubtless he 11 rd
made a charge against a person connected with a Prelate;
but now, as to the Noble and Learned Lord who had ac.
cused bis Noble Friend of bringing forward a charge,
that Noble and Learned Lord was mistaken, for the charge
had begun on the part (X the Right Rev. Prelate. His
Noble Friend had entered upon nothing but the dry ques-
tion of political economy; and as to the subject of non-
residence, that had been introduced by a Right Rev. Pre-
late not now in the House, who had said that the fault
lay not in the Bishops, but in the impropriators, who
thought that if the condition of residence attached to
their advowsons it would lower their price in the market.
What his Noble Friend had raid to-night was merely
in answer to that statement. He was old enough to
remember—for he was then in the House of Com-
mons—when the Bill was brought in by Lord Stowell,
in 1803, and that Bill was fought out most pertinaciously
by one who would be admitted on all hands to have
been the firm friend of all our institutions, Mr. Wind-
ham, who declared that the Bill was one for non-
residence, and not residence. Now the Noble and Learned
Lord had said that a charge had been brought unfairly
against Lord Stowell, in the absence of his Noble and
Learned Brother; and why?—Because his Noble Friend
had said that the Bill was sent to Oxford. But was that
denied ?—Quite the reverse. It had been avowed by Lord
Stowell that he had sent it there to be revised and cor-
rected by the Rev. Heads of Houses there. He would
not prolong this conversation at present, but he must say
that, on further examination of what had taken place the
other night, he could not understand under what pretence
it could be asserted that that Bill had been rendered ineffi-
cacious by what had taken place in Parliament. At all
events, it had been fathered in that House by the late
Archbishop of Canterbury ; and, baying looked at the
Bill brought in by that Prelate's son (the present Speaker
of the House of Commons), he could not see how it had
been altered. He nes by no means disinclined to give the
Bishops power to enforce residence ; he wished they had
perfect powers for that purpose : but, on the other hand,
their pluralities must come to an end, for proper residence
and pluralities could not by possibility co-exist.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM trusted that, when the
question was brought forward it would be discussed as
property, but not merely as affecting agriculture, but on
broader ground, and with a view to the maintenance of
what was an essential principle of all institutions, the
existence of a Church Establishment. His Noble Rela-
tive bad said that the Church felt its property to be in
danger ; but, if that were the case, so was the Noble Ba-
ron's own property. The tight of the Church to her pro-
perty was quite as strong as any his Noble Friend had to
his ; and if the Church had reason to tremble, so bad his
Noble Friend also,