The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-12 00:00:00

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.

Mr. BROUGHAM, in rising to bring forward his promised
motion, principally with reference to the state of Agriculture,
felt, and without any affectation he confessed it, that he had
undertaken a task of great responsibility. Ile was aware that
there were very many other Hon. Members in whose hands so
important a question would have met with that justice which it
could not in his ; and had it not been that his Flon- Friend, the
Member for Essex (Mr. Western) was prevented by indisposi-
tion from proceeding with the subject, he would have left it in
his hands, although upon some questions they differed in opi-
nion. There were other Hon. Members competent to the task;
but from them he differed.in opinion so much that he could not
but undertake it himself even at the risk of finding all the dis-
advantages which too probably would attend rt. His principal
object in bringing forward this question was to preserve that
consistency of political conduct which he trusted he had shewn
from the commencement of his public life. He had reason to
fear that he should give but little satisfaction to any of the great
interests in the country. He had little hope that the agricul-
turists would be satisfied with his view of their case ; that view
inducing his opinion that, although they suffered much, they
did not suffer peculiarly ; and that high prices would not assist
them. Still less was his hope in this respect when he knew
that he must call upon them to resist his Majesty's Adminis-
tration and to stand up for the whole of the country.—(Hear,
hear.)—He would call upon them to disregard the quarter
whence the call would come, or the opposition which it would
be sure to meet. He would call upon them, once for all, to do
their duty. As little must he hope to make an impression upon
those whom he should call upon to retrace their steps, though
he should not ask any man to he inconsistent. Some he would
ask to renew their policy, but under circumstances so different
from those which were when 'they first adopted it, that though
a wise man might at first appear inconsistent, he would shew
that he had profited by that slow, but most faithful mistress,
experience.—(Hear, hear.)—There might be some whom he
would call upon to do that which was enjoined by wisdom's
self, and to do which it would be honourable, though the sup-
posed inconsistency War^ ten times greater than it was. He
meant that they should manfully acknowledge their error. A
word as to the time he had chosen ; a word in answer to the
question, " Why not wait until his Majesty's Ministers shall
bring the subject forward ?" At the first view the objection I
conveyed by the question appeared to be a sound one ; and had i
it not been for the foretaste which he had had on the first night
of the Session from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he might
perhaps have waited. It appeared clear that there would be,
not a taking off of taxes, but a placing on of new ones ; for this
he contended was the not taking off in such a situation as ours.
—(Hear, hear.)—That doctrine was what he feared would per-
vade the Budget, though with a little qualification. The ques-
tion " Why do you not wait ?" would be more difficult for
him to answer if he had any particular plan to propose. If he
were about to develope a plan complex or detailed ; if he were
bringing forward his remedy or his nostrum ; if, in short, he
was about to attempt any thing but the establishment of a plain
broad principle—the principle that the public burdens must be
reduced—(Cheers)—he might find it difficult to answer the ques-
tion. He conceived that he ought not to have waited until the esti-
mates for theyear should have been proposed ; for the principle
which he sought to establish would affect theestimates themselves.
It would be superfluous to comment upon the vast amount of the
present distress; upon the suffering individual as well as public,
pressing, as it more immediately did, upon Agriculture. All
men admitted the great amount of this distress; and its exist-
ence was very properly lamented by Ministers, in his Majesty's
Speech. But this distress, it was said, was of a local nature ;
or at all events was confined to one class. He had taken some
pains to inquire upon this point; and the result of his in-
quines satisfied him that some parts of the North were better
off than others. These ware a part of' Yorkshire, and the
Counties of Durham and Cumberland. In these parts it was
'not usual to get in the crop so well as it was gotten in last
year; and of course the abundance of last year, without uis-
usual means to produce it, had occasioned the owners of land in
those parts to suffer less than others. With this exception, it
was impossible to say that the suffering was not grevious and
general. It was useless to talk of Barley Counties, and of
Essex, Hampshire, and so on—the fact most indubitably was,
that the distress was general. This actually brought him
to consider the assertion that the disress was greater on the agri-
Kcultural than other interests. Ile was free to confess that he

. .
could not understand 'this. A little extraordinary 'pressure he
admitted, hot to say that a long course of distress should affect
but one branch' (for this was said six years ago); to say that it
should lie SO great in amount, so general in extent, and so last-
ing in duration, and that it should not affect the rest of the
community, was a proposition which he repeated his mindcould
not accept. He really could not comprehend it. He should
not admit the proposition which' he repeated his mind could not
accept. He really could not comprehend it. He should not
admit the proposition, even if the branch in question were ever
so inconsiderable. But what could be said to it when the
branch of the community in question was formed of all en.
gaged in 'the cultivation of the soil ? The Home Market must,
it must be depressed; and it could not he relieved by any re-
strictive laws upon importation.—(Hear, hear !)—When he
was told that the manufacturers were thriving while the agri-
culturists were ruined, he could not believe it. He admitted
that they were not pressed so heavily ; but they complained,
and very naturally, of the want of home demand.—(Cheers.)—
Their profits were lower than they were at any other time
which couldbe called flourishing; he would instance the iron
trade at Birmingham. It was only lately that the most con-
siderable iron masters met, to take into consideration the dimu-
nution of their profits, and to turn theirattention to the unhappy
expedient of diminishing their production, so as to equalize
it with the reduced demand. They came to the resolution
of diminishing their furnaces ; or, in other words, of lopping
rifle considerable limb of the iron trade. This, as a Consequence,
led to a reduction of wages, and the consequence of this would
soon be felt. In short, if the farming interest suffered, it
was impossible for the other interests not to suffer. He wouid
now lead back the attention of the House to consider what had
been doing since the termination of the war. He wonld not
go into detail ; he would take merely a general view, and
even upon that, he would contend, that it was impossible for a
nation to go on successfully, as to its finances or its wealth, as
we had been going on since the peace. He would take the
first three years after the peace, when our expenditure in each
of those years was 132 millions. In this he included the ex-
pences of management, for the view would be inadequate if
those were excluded. They were taken from our pockets,
and they increased the patronage of the Crown. If to this was
added the sum which he called Taxes, formed of the Parish
and County Rates, !amounting to eight millions, here was
a sum of one hundred and forty millions taken from the
pockets of the people either by loan or tax, and expended,
yes, he would say expended, for he should use no harsher
term until he should be borne out by his proofs. Now in those
years, the expenditure, exclusive of the interest of the debt,
amounted to 83 millions, and the revenue was but 84 millions.
So prosperous was our course, even in a financial point of
view, that our revenue was but one million more than our ex-
penditure, leaving the whole interest of the debt to be pro-
vided for. If -a man in private life had an income of 10,0001.
a year, owed a debt, the interest of which was 50001. a year,
and spent almost his 10,0001. a year, so that he was compelled
to borrow to pay the interest of his debt, what was the name
which would be given to the situation of such a man ? He was
unwilling to speak disrespectfully of public Companies or
public credit ; but he would ask Hon. Members to think what
term they would give to the situation of this individual and
that same term they must apply to the management of the af-
fairs of this country. He was unwilling to state how these sums
were expended; sums, the existence of which staggered one's
credulity to believe, and which it actually turned one's head to
contemplate. But he should quote from the most unioestion-
able authority—that of the Committee of Finance ; a Commit.
tee selected, not from men in the habit of opposing Ministers,
but named by the Noble Marquis opposite. Unquestionably,
there were some independent men upon that Committee ; but
most of them must have been very willing hearers of every thing
which could be said in defence of the expenditure of public
money.—(Hear!)—Sonie of them were themselves in office; and
their admissions might not unfairly be called confessions ;
he had almost said the confessions of wrong-doers. He would
give an example of that scrupulousness in the care of the pub-
lic purse which guided the conduct of its guardians. By the
Report of the Finance Committee, with regard to the army
extra.ordinaries, he found it stated that " the public buildings
were carried on in a measure little calculated to check pro-
fusion and waste ; and were extended as the views of the
planners opened in the course of the work." So then, the ex-
pence adapted itself to the opening views, not of Ministers,
but of those of the disinterested persons who profited by the
erection of the works themselves.—( Hear, hear hear!)—He
intreated the attention of the House to this part of the subject.
There was more sound and valuable evidence to be found in
it; more of the wholesome fruit of experience to be gather-
ed, and more of awful warning to be collected from it, than
there would be if a man were to speak to them half a century
gifted with the powers of an angel.—( Hear, hear, from the
Opposition.)—This was the confession of accomplices in the
profligate expenditure.—(Cheers from the ,Opposition.)—llad
the whole expence of these different works been submitted
to the House in the way of estimates, they might have been
examined with reference to their necessity; their probable
utility, or the possibility of their being executed. The Com-
mittee stated, and very properly stated, that " the want
of estimates on these heads had 'kept the House in com-
plete ignorance of the expellee of them." The plain En-
glish of it was this ! that the works were constructed upon
a wrong principle altogether. None such ought ever to have
been-attempted;- but if those who conducted the thing hop-
ed for security from such a .kind of !defence, these works
were in themselves insufficient for what they intended them
for. The plan was bad, but even if any thing could have
been expected from it, that was frast.ated, for the execution
was worse. Then, he asked, ought .not this to be a warning to
that House ? If the House of Commons had done its duty—if
they had refused to grant the supplies till they had the Esti-
mates before them—if they had done as every man of common
sense, as every man of common honesty was bOund to do,
these millions of money would not have been squandered as
they had been.—( Hear.) —II e would next remind the House
of the sums which had been drawn from the people of England
during these years. These amounted to eighty-four millions
and a half, including county and parish taxes, 92 millions,—
and amounting, during three years, to 274 millions, including.
parish and county taxes. In making a comparison betwixt
this and former periods, it would be found that when Mr, Pitt
introduced his Sinking Fund, the debt was 238 millions, and
it was reduced before the year 1792 to 230 millions. So that
here was an expenditure for two- or three years, so vast as to
be sufficient to pay off the whole of the National Debt at the
commencement of the French war. No more need be said to
prove the acceleration of the crisis of our financial schemes.—
Peace came, unhappily, as.he was to contend, without bring-
ing the usual confidence with it. After the country had been
drained to an extent that placed till its affairs in that state of
confusion as baffled all conjecture as to its cause, or its ex-
tent—with a deranged currency amongst its manifold evils, it
might have been expeteted that the termination of the war which
was the cause of it all, would bring a relief from some of the
burdens. It was, however, astonishing, so as to be scarcely
eredible, how little was the difference peace had made. The
whole expenditure of the year 1820 was 75- millions. The
whole expenditure of 1806 was only 79 millions and a half;
being a relief in the sixth year of peace from what might be
called the twelfth of war of only four millions and a half.—
Comparing the year 1820 with 1804, which might be consider-
ed one of the most expensive years of the war, being 76 mil-
lions, it would be found that it was only one million more
than the expenditure in the sixth year of peace. The reve-
nue
_in the same way for 1820 was a fraction ander 60 mil-
lions—in 1821, it was 61 millions. On this subject he must
observe, that the increase in the Irish Revenue was not of that
flattering description the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
have them believe. Independent of an accidental circum-
stance, which contributed to its rise last year, it would be found
that itwas £500,000 less than it was two years before. The net
revenue of 1818 was four millions and a half; in 1820 it was
three millions and a half; and in 1821, it was a fraction under
four millions. Of the 61 millions, therefore, raised from taxes,
independent of leans, it was plain that Ireland had not contri-
buted any great share. He estimated the revenue at this, se-
parate from allowance, discounts, and drawbacks, all of which
were, in one shape or another, returned to the* channel they
came from—he only considered the additional expence of col-
lecting and managing. That sum this year would be one mil-
lion more, making no allowance for the change in currency,
than it was in 1806. Thus were they reduced to the deplor-
able condition of allowing the people to be drained of more in
one case, and but little less in the other, than had been wrung
from them to support the expenditure of the heaviest years of
that expensive war. This, it was to be observed, depended in
no degree on the changes in currency, to which important sub-
ject he was about to call their attention; and he begged the
House to bear in mind, that the greatest mischief was their
having ever departed from the standard. In what he was
about to state he pledged himself that he would not assume
a single datum which-was not sanctioned by the Reports of the
Bullion Committee of 1810 and 1819, and even proved by do-
cuments subjoined to them. In 1800 the bullion price of gold
was 31. 17s. 111}d. when the market price was 41. 55., being a
depreciation of 9 1-10th per cent. It afterwards fell, and fluc-
tuated ; and of these fluctuations his complaints were not the
least. They had been ruinous to all except those who dealt in
money ; and so great and sudden were they in some instances,
that in one year there was a fluctuation of 30 per cent. This
was a state of things which, in the face of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and of the House, who supported in a mo-
tion, in 1814, that the Bank note was not depreciated when it
was worth but 165., lie would venture to say no well-regulated
Government would allow to subsist for one month, and which
theyprided themselves in having kept alive for almost ten or
twelve years. But to return to the price of bullion in the
years 1811 and 1812. In those years the market price was
41 194 nd. upon the average, being a depreciation of 27 in

' the hundred. The revenue fe: those years was about 73 mil-
lions and a half. To ascertain, therefore, how much money
the revenue amounted to, they must diminish that sum at the
rate of 27 per cent.; for it must be estimated in depreciated
currency. That rate of decrease upon the whole sum amount-
ed to 19,890,0001. which brought it down to 53,700,0001. ; so
that in the years 1811 and 1812, the people of this country
paid eight millions less in gold than in the presentyear,and
seven millions less than they did last year. Taking it at the
minimum seventeen per cent. it still made that we pay one
million more this ydar than in those years of war. That
time, it was , to be observed, was no time of rest in any
part of the world. Throughout the whole of Europe a war
was raging, of a nature and to an extent till then unknown.—
Every sea was covered with our fleets ; every port was filled
with our expeditions, and every Court full of our subsidies.
—We had to sustain the shock of great battles abroad ;
our shores were encompassed with perils, and whilst we were
not free from dissentions at home.—(Hear, hear, hear f)e-
When they compared those times with the present, and saw
that the sums which supported us through the one were now
required to maintain us in the other, they must feel ashamed
at the burdens which were wrung from the people. He would
take the most expensive years, 1813, 1814, 1815—those years
of inordinate profusion ; and what must the House think, he
asked, when they found that it was not more true than that
two. and two made four, that this present year we were
paying in taxes as much as was wrung from us in those ex-
travagant times ? So, however, it was from the effect of de-
preciation in the currency. The price of bullion then, was 51.
an ounce, causing a depreciation of 281 per cent., and if they
reduced the Revenue from 84 millions and a half to what it
would have been if levied in bullion, they must deduct 23
millioneand a half, which -brought the average of the years
1813-14-15 to 61 millions, being the amount at par, which they
now heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer boasting he raised
from the people. He did not mean to charge the Committee of!
1819 with having brought about the restoration of the standard
of currency. Gold was then at 41. 3s. per oz answering to a
depreciation of G 1-3 d per cent. which the Committee at least
effected. So that by the operation of the measures of that
Committee the taxes had been raised 4 millions and a half more
that year, pretending they did not mean to-raise them at all.
And this was the period, which were it not fresh in their reccl-
lection it would be wholly incredible to believe, that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer chose, and that House supported him,
to impose three millions of new taxes to grind the people down
to the earth.—(Hear !)—They aimed the blow in the dark, for
no man could say what the depreciation would be, therefore
could not know what were the amount of the burdens he was
imposing. What he wished the House to keep in view was,
that estimating the mint and market priceS, without interfering
with any of those differences respecting the currency, which ex-
isted amongst so many persons, the taxes that are levied now,
are though nominally less, in reality as heavy as in the periods
he had alluded to. There was great difference of opinion as
to the effect of taxation.on the prosperity of the country. He
world not then stop to inquire into these points. There were
some upon which all men were agreed. The first was, that a
great expenditure of the capital of a country by Government,
had the necessary effect of raising prices ; and that not merely
during the time the expenditure was gping on, but for a short
time after it had ceased. It was plain that this was the case,
because that money must either be taken from the income, , or
from the accumulated capital. If from the income, it pre-
vented accumulation. If from the accumulated capital, it de-
stroyed that capital. According to an indispensible rule the
profits of stock were greater or less in an inverse ratio to their
proportion. The consequence was, that a dinihiution had the
necessary effect of increasing prices. The same might be said
with respect to hiexes. It could not be denied that a tax took
from the comfort in proportion as it diminished the capital. But
it was equally true that it did so much more so by the number
of levying it. Thus when a tax was raised, he who first ad-
vanced it must increase his capital, or decrease his transactions
in trade in proportion. According to this, the maltster or brewer
who formerly had his malt at ten shillings and sixpence, which
was afterwards raised, in .1819, to twenty-eight shillings,
must have a greater capital in the latter case to purchase
the materials necessary to carry on his business, or he must
confine his transactions within the limits of his capital. This
therefore operated directly to the exclusion from trade of the
smaller capitals, and the consequence was that the larger ca-
pitals were better off, and the public worse. For it kept down
competition, and also a decrease of accumulation and a rise in
prices. The fact of the frequent petitions that came to that
. House whenever it was proposed to take off a tax, was a proof
of what he advanced. Clue was the case when it was proposed
to take off the leather tax formerly. The great dealers who
did not care a farthing for the smaller dealers, wished to perpe-
tuate the tax. The language used on these occasions was al-
ways sure to bring down encoiniums from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on the patriotic Gentlemen, whose self-interest,
regardless of all the world beside, led theM to hold it. In
almost every new tax the consumer was made to pay con-
siderably more than the amount of that tax. If in the
tax there happened to be a fraction, it was made even by the
producer. He charged also for the decrease in consumption
consequent upon the increase in price, and also for the interest
of the increased capital required. Thus did it go on in a
geometrical ratio of infliction on the consumer, and this was
the real cause of the vast amount of distress. They had seen
the enormous expenditure, and the manner of levying taxes
on the people they must see, from the particular operation of
these causes, that the burden fell heaviest on the landed in-
terest. To prove. this, suppose in the year 1790, when the
taxes were only 13 millions, a landholder with 10,0001. to be
comfortably off, it was plain that his comfort would fall short,
when instead of his proportion of 18 millions, he had to pay
his proportion of GO millions. But he would suffer incalculably
more than other classes, for he suffered as a consumer in com-
mon with others, but also as a producer, in proportion as it cost
more to produce from the high prices caused by taxation: Thus
he paid more as a consumer, and received less as a producer.
The expence of producing since 1792 heel increased fourfold,
which had left little to marvel at that the agricultural classes
were distressed. The remedy which some had propoSed was
to lessen rent. He honoured the feelings which dictated the
proposition, but in his view itwas a remedy inadequate to the
relief of the farmers.—(Hear, spear!)-'Though, ruinous to the
landlord who should make that reduction, it would not effect-
wally relieve the tenant. With regard to the article of wheat,
the market price did. not remunerate the farmer for growing
it. He feared it was impossible to raise the price, but if the
cost r.F cultivation were reduced, it would serve the grower just
as well as if the price were raised.—( Hear, hear, hear !)--H e
need hardly remind the House of the rise in the cost of produc-
tion since 1792. He was happy, however, to find, , that the
price of labour had fallen back since 1813, about half the
amount of the rise since that period. He believed that that
which could be obtained in 1813 for 15s. could now be got for
10s, or 12s. That grain could be grown for so little as one
half what the production of it cost before the war, he denied,-
and when the Poor Rates were added, it would appear to be
still farther from it. It had been affirmed that these taxes in
their pressure affected all equally with the farmer; but it was
a question with him whether the same taxes pressed so severe-
ly no any other two classes as upon the farmer. The farmer
was more exposed to the operation of circumstances he could
not. contcoul than either the manufacturer or trader. A
tax coming upon a' falling market was injurious to the
grower particularly, who was unable to shift it on the con-
sumer. The farmer was at the mercy of the seasons, which
seldom or never affected the other two classes. The evil of low
prices was attended by a natural remedy in increased con-
sumption, and the one would always counteract the other, if
it were not for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But'it in-
variably happened, that between the evil and its natural re-
medy, stepped in the tax-gatherer. Malt at one time suf-
fered a tax of thirty-four shillings a qUarter. It was now
2 shillings, the prime cost of the barley being 21 shillings.
A fall in barley took place of ss. when, if there had been no
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the quarter of barley would
have. come down to 20s. equal to a - diminution of one-fifth of
the price, and there would have been a proportionable increase
in consumption to make up for the loss. But the tax be-
ing added to the precise .cost,- the- fall was from 555. to 50s.
making the diminution one-eleventh instead of one-fifth, so
that the grower was subjected to a loss of one-fifth, and bene-
fited by the natural remedy only in the proportion of one-
eleventh. Here the figures were accurate, for the fact was
consonant with the calculation. The consumption of malt for
the five years ending 1797 was three millions and a half of
quarters. The- consumption for a similar period, upon the
average of the three years preceding the last, 1818, 1819,
1820, was only 2,920,000, being a falling off of between I-6th
afid 1-7th. Were there any circumstances to explain this ?
There was one which instead of accounting for it, tended to
strengthen' his reasoning. Instead of a diminution then ought
to have been an. increase, if a great increase in population
could have any effect that way, .The increase 'in poptiletion
from '1792 to this year,a period of thirty years, was about four
millions of souls; in the proportion of ten, to fourteen of the
whole population. Yet in the consumption of malt there was
a falling off of from one.sixth to' one-seventh, instead of an in-
crease in the proportion of five to. seven. This, he thought,
spoke wonders as to the effect of taxation to diminish consump.-
ton, and no man he hoped would after this hesitate to admit
that the farmer was differently situated in the community from
other classes' as regarded taxation. All articles, the taxation
upon which affected, the price of wages lor labour, fell. with
their full weight upon the agriculturist. The taxes which
caused an increase in the price of labour in other branches
of industry, such as manufactures, might be evaded by machi-
nery, whiche
it would* be.found, was always brought into use
as the price of labour increased. The farmer, however, was
obliged to pay for all in hard'money and hard labour. When
the farrner attempted to evade the evil, by employing horses,

he was met by an agricultural horse tax. He reeeived this
with meekness and tranquillity, and went on suffering without
complaining, through a series of years ; and it was only last .
year that an effectual effort was made to shake it off When
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
wished, however, to cope with machinery, he proposed a tax
on iron. He knew of no way of taxing the article itself, and
therefore was obliged to go to its ingredients. He was unable
to grapple with the steam, or they would have had a steametax
as wellas a horse tax.—(A laugh.)—But that was too subtle even
for him, thank Heaven. But the proposal to tax iron was not
met in the quiet way the horse tax was. No, the Right Hon.
Gentleman was beset with swarms of iron-men from the iron
countries—hard men; not. so malleable as their commodities,
who, morning, noon, and night, kept up the din about the Right
Hon. Gentleman's ears,and completely destroyed his rest. Nay,
he remembered the lobby of that House was quite beleagured
by them, and every night they were exposed to the pelting of
this pitiless storm of iron sleet.—(Loughter.)—They had never
since heard any thing about this tax. How the iron-men, and
the tax-men had settled it together he knew not ; but so it was.
Then there was the burden of the poor rates which the farmer
had to support. These had risen two millions since 1791. The
only means of meeting the distress of this class, and of all
others, was by rsfiucing the taxes.—(Hear !)—They must di-
minish the total, not by one million, or a million and a half,
but by such a sum as should allow the farmer and the other
classes in the community to live. This pressure of taxa.
Lion had now reduced the country to such a state, that it
had become absolutely anti indispensably necessary.—(Hear,
hear !)—He had shewn that, under the name of paying less
than in former periods, they- were actually paying more. All
that prospect of consolation held out to them during the war
to seduce them to endurance, had vanished. Peace had come,
but not with a reduction of taxes. It had not brought with it
its healing wings. Taxes, though nominally less, were in
reality more. If it were otherwise, anti people were only'
nominally poorer, it was in the power of that House to relieve
them. This led him to remark that he entertained a great dif-
ference of opinion on the subject of the operation of the cur-
rency, from that of many persons in that House. Ile had not
been a Member of the Committee of 1819. Not that he re-
fused—more probably he was unfit to take part in its. discus-
sions. It had seemed good to those who selected that Com-
mittee to exclude his views from that body, and it had seemed
good to the House to sanction their objects by a refusal of him.
The reasons for,their so doing he did npt mean to question, for
he felt himself infinitely honoured by the rejection of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers.—(Hear !)—Because it was not the first time
they had exercised that discretion in the same way by exclud-
ing one of the greatest men that had ever adorned that House,
in the year 1792 (Mr. Fox), for precisely the same offence.
He lamented the effects of the policy of 1797, which altering
the currency, had distorted all the affairs of the country, so
that no man could tell what he was actually worth from week
to week, and from month to month. This had produced evil from
the beginning, and continued so at its ending. He could not say
that he clearly saw his way through the difficulties which Minis-
ters had had to encounter. Always admitting that they had had
but a choice of evils, and of great evils, he thought sufficient
attention had not been paid to the effects of largely augment.
ing the interest of the debt., The attention of the Govern-
ment had been too much confined to the evils on one side.
A great, a saving relief would be produced, especially to that
class now most aggrieved, by a large reduction of taxes. No-
thing that might fall from him was to be regarded as shaking
this theory, for he thought there was no man in 'or out of that
House, who did not feel from the bottom of his heart, that the
great- source of relief, to which we must all look, was a re-
duction of the public burdens. He did not believe that
when all the relief that could be thus afforded had been
given, that all, the evils complained of would cease. The
taxation must be reduced, as its pressure went to the very ex-
istence of no less a body than the landed interest of England.
It was none of the least of the evils, growing out of the system
of 1797, that besides the increase of debt, it led.to speculations
among individuals, to speculations in commerce, and specula-
tions among professional men, limited of course ; but men were
led into speculations into which they never would have en-
tered, had the currency remained in a healthy state, but above
all among the agricultural classes. These lie shewed to be most
injurious. Over-produce he admitted to be one of the evils
at present to be lamented, but this was not confined to the
agricultural classes; the manufacturers felt this as well._
Within the last thirty years the improvethents of machinery
in cotton factories enabled one man to do as much as 100 men
could do :formerly. Great improvements had taken place with
respect to agricultural machinery, but one man could not now
produce as much corn as 100 men could formerly raise. The
burden thrown on the country. by the loans obtained was im-
mense. Every man who formerly lent 501. could not now. he
paid off but by 1001. In 1798, the three per cents. were at 47.
Much had been lent at between 50 and 60, and many hundreds
of millions had from 60 to 70. On these there was an advance
of 25 per cent. in hard cash. He shewed that the gains of the
farmer during the war were not left untouched. His rent rose,
the prices of all. articles were advanced, and a tax was devised
which alone of all the taxes—those on stamps excepted, im-
posed an ad valorem duty which followed his income through
all its risings. Induced to speculate in land, the farmer had
purchased at what Was then the price current. The land so
ourchased he must now sell at the price to what that descrip-
tion of property had fallen in consequence of a return to me-
tallic currency, or be unablo to sell at all—he must' hold
it and be ruined. lie shewed that while'rents were enormously
reduced the same or nearly the same taxes were still to he
borne, and thence drew the inference that to relieve the
'landed interest the taxes must be greatly reduced. After
all the relief that could thus be afforded the agricultural
classes would still have, to straggle with great difficulties, and
he did not hesitate to say, that they must go on till the relief
afforded proved really sufficient. If all the reductions that
could possibly be made' in the taxes did not prove sufficient, so
intimately was landed interest bound .up with the existence
of the country, that to accomplish the object in view they
must be prepared to adopt other measures—Measures which
'could only be justified by paramount unreasoning necessity._
(Hear, hear.)-:.-To tamper with public faith—to sully the ho- •
nonr of the country—to declare a national bankruptcy! Good
God !
Could any one recommend such a measure ii it 'could
be avoided ? Certainly not. Nor would any one wish to alter
the. denomination of our, currency • but if necessity, whose
mandate was imperative, demanded it, even such measures
must not be spurned, and he should say a case of necessity
was made out, if the English landholder were to remain per-
manently depressed in any thing like the- degree in which he
was depressed at present. He eloquently set forth the misery,
and rum which must grow on the decay of the landed interest ;
he trusted the evils he contemplated might be averted and re-
' lieved without having recourse to a measure from which every
one must recoil—compounding with the creditors, or tamper-
ing with the currency of the State. To effect this large redsic-
tions must be made. It was not enough that a few poor Clerks
were dismissed, but Ministers must begin to retrench with the
highest, and go down to the lowest of those employed; in the
service of the public. It was not 10 or 15 per cent. that would
do. He would not say to what extent.the reductions should be
made, but such as had taken place in the last year would not sa-
tisfythe public. He complained of the want ofeconomy on the
part of Ministers. In consequence of the cessation of the In-
come Tax offices -had been reduced to the amount of 1,500 L per
annum, but allowances had been granted to these who retired,
exceeding the scale laid down in Mr. Perceval's Act, that but
3001. per annum had been saved to the public. At the seine
time he remarked augmentations in the expenditure had
taken place, and the salaries of the Commissioners of the Cu -
toms,'Excise, and Stamp Duties, had been increased in lieu
of patrol-age-Which was said to be taken from them. -In the
office of the President of the Board of Controul; a Gentleman
in consideration of his retaining a godd situation for five years
had been requited with an increase of salary. His income was
raised from 1,8001. to 2,0001., and when instead of holding
the situation five years, lie had enjoyed it seven, he. was far. •
Cher rewarded with an additional 2,0001. Such, was the
economy of
.the present Ministers. It was necessary to re-
trace their steps to save the country from splitting on the
rock of national bankruptcy. , The Government had before
them bin a choice of evils—to declare the country insolvent.
and regulate its fonds accordingly, or to make
.those large
retrenchments which he recommended. Nothing else cou4
save the country. He called upon tbe llouse .not
laid an ear to any proposal for aiding the Landed Inte-
rest by increasing the facilities of borrowing. This would -
stbject them to the only plague which they had escaped, excise
rocess, and would aggravate the evil it was intended to re- •
needy: But above all, he cautioned them against listening te •
any proposition for shifting the taxes from one class to another,
for this would-only lead- to the re-introduction of the odious .
home Tax-.; and that once regained, the Government- could::
aus:nent it to extort' any sums they might require to sustain sther extravagance. He should nesperforay his duty
,without
eating on the COuntry Gentlemen' no longer to trusethe vision.
arcs who had so often misled them. In closing these obser-
vatons, lie could not put the mbtion, with which he should
conclude, without guarding himself 'against misrepresentation..
Hhresolution would bind no man to any particular amount
of induction, or -to any particular mode of, retrenchment.-- .
It bond them to no particular line of conduct with respect eo
anyme. impost or with respect to the Sinking Fund. Every.
Meaber, whatever his sentiments on pal-6611er points, might
vote7or it, with the exception of those who thought any other
nostums than reduction of taxationwould cure the evil,. and
who were resolved, under all circumstances, to defend the
'preset expenditure.. Its conclocled by moving That
it is tie bounden duty of this House well to consider the
presare of the public burdens on all daises, but more espe-_
ciall)on the agricultural classes, with a view to obtain for the
suffeing people of this realm, such a diminution of taxatiati

as -will afford the necessary ;elle!' to the distress now existing in
-the'rhuntry." - - -
The hldarcriis of LONDONDERRY, in rising to address
itheklousee after the very Icing. detailed,- and-,,elabOrate'Speech
of the llenhared Learned Gentlemen,- coitki assure the IlouSe,
ittiat if he felt that the praphsition which had been shbrnitted to
tersienet in a :veil practicable shape; because it could not be
edcited -without injury to phblie credit ; if he thought the niode
elheZef which had been see.gestill cotilil` at -.once be safilY re-
l'Oreed -to, end without a' -66-let-ion-of' national faith,: he would
t4tahrt the Call for a ditninttion of 'the burdens of the Rennie
.to the uttermost frrthirtg. - If the Ilene and Learned Geetle-
zsan'eculd prtive to hint that-taxation could he reduced-, as. he
..heetTecornameneled that it should be reduced;- Without viol:it-
-an: 'dune principles of good final 'whith it had hitherte been
the' pelihr of the iltitish Government to maintain, he should
behfisat to iiiTord the nation all the benefit 'whie.h it had
Igen tor.vindcd. must result float inch a course. ' But the
Tryeltiriens -iesinuation thrown out on the possible -neces-
of relit stn=; the landed interest at the expense of the
ons?hiesi irteresh must be more qualified than they bad been
..by'-any thing 'advanced in the course of--the Learned Gentle-
man's speech to relieve him -from the idea; that -before thtey
ee'ityphst bit resolutioh; they must be prepared to-deviate from
-princielch Which had hitherto been regarded as these
.whieli if was- most important to preserve infqolate. When the
Hone, and Lesrnedflentlemen had removed this impiession, by
-.showing thatlhe course which- he-recommended could be pur-
.suedt without a violation of good faith ; then, and not till then,
.1%01113 he acknowledge that he had established a case on whieh
Ir.'s:id-Uhl-become the duty of that House to act. If he had be
lieved that the subjeets which the Learned Gentlt'mait's speech
involved could that night be satisfactorily brotight before the
liovw., he would' net have been the first to answer it, as lie had
.tee happiness to sit amongst those Who were much more canahle
.of 'detecting the-- fallacies which' tvcontiined, and of replying
to many peiths in it than Wai. But' the question now for
-their 'honsideratiOn was; -in what' situation was the House
and n-hat would be the situation of the' Route and the
-.Cour.try, if his--views of the present great and portentous
crisis here acted upon I' The Government had been; arraigned;
.and 'the !louse itself had not been- exempted- froth the lash of
the:l-lore ,de, Learned GeraVinan ; but it' was riot for them to
regulett their cordect by what that Hone and Learned Gen-
-Ll:Man reier think 'of the Manner in which they had per-
formed-their duty,- it was for theta to'act such a part as would
justify them in-their ore eyes P,nd in the eyes of posterity. He
svishee Cot to follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through
I is i_leteilse.but he should not do his if he were not to touch
on some of hiS must prominent points. lie should have expected if
the [Pin-- and Learned Gent, telt that he had good grounds to
go upee----if he wished the -subjects which he had broached
broiheiit into eiscession; he would -have' endeavoured to make
Themir-tellhetle by giVing sufficient-time fot them to be looked
fairly- into. It', in his ieal to procure relief for the country; he
kat/ F eon a' ptacticable mode of diminishing their hurdees, he
sheuld iihve imagined that to this point the Hon. and Learned
Cent rhulti have applied himself without going back to the Tate
.v:,er to chlurniiiete Ministers for the measures whieh they had
pu'rsiiiAl.:e.r to calethriete the House for its shbsertiency to'the
theremnient, whose measures they had "sanctioned.
fait confident it the soundness of his own propositions, he
would -head taker a course very different from that which
_he 'bud purstied. on this occasion. `He 'would not have come
forward hs he new did, to say, " here I have a-preposition to
make which ought to be adopted. Ministers, it is true, have
announced that they have sonic measures 'to propose, which4n
their judgment 'will be proper to nicet the-case, , btit Whatever
their plants may be, I will not wait-to hear them... I have a
proposition to submit which affects all the great interests-- of the
Empire, earl on this I call upon you to give your 'fiat in the
aiiSZll6 of that infbrmation which Ministers have 'offered- to
giVii and-nee ready to supply." It should be -remembered, that
holding. thi4 languare het endeavoured to press them, or rather
to entrap them-to -give a hireniatthie 'deci'sion -on a question not
kss—coeit:lex than it was important: 'He (the Marquis. of
Londonderry) felt that he should 'betray his duty-. to the
Crown, and be waritinh in respect to that- House; if haihT
opened-went it was the intention-of inisters to do' he were
nut to-allow them thll time duly"to- con:haler the real merits Of
theecase, before they decided What course it Would best becerne
them to take in the present hircturiatiances of the country, But
such were 'not the f',,eiings
.of Honourable anti Learned
Gentleman. Ho proposed to them on Cie first night of its being
hniught beforelhein a come to a decisihne which if adOpted,
sveuld say :nest seta one great question, hi which' the most
irriportant interests of -the couttry were necessarily involved.
The 1-fori/Gentleenazi, he repeated it, had he been satisfied 'of the,
soundness of the-remedy he had propOsed;• would have been
le-44:likely to go out of his Way; 'to reproaeh Ministers-for-their
Fist traduce- - -doirCg this he had fallen into some etaggera-•
Heins; on which' he neiSt offer a few remarks. He had reproath ed
the ticescinnient with the great expence incurred -in the late
hher.: Was this fait'---WaS it just -to reproach them now for the
stapendods eteitions'which had been made during the last three
years' of the weir, which guided by Providence was clowned
with'success, and" bad peeved the means of restoring peace to
Eurhpe ? Was it fair tires to- arraign Ministers for these exch.:.
Boris which at-the- dine had been apprOVed on the other ride of
the House,- and which' the voice' di the Country had not only
sustained; but had clhirr.ed from those entrusted with the' ad

ministration of its aff:tirs?'.‘i'as it' well that -these" should be
bight forward now, and- he sticass whiCh. had • crowned
tikm forgotten 'Gin& greater ,Success could never have been
cikatetuplad or desiiedytt.s.tnatters.of charge against Ministers?
In'refirrinr,,T to the Re-port Finance UOmmittee, the Hon.
and '.earned. Genticr.Lai had spoken of the Members of -the
Cas:niittee zs being *nlons who were notoriously subser-
vient to the Government. He would as'.: was this fair

Wait not calumniating the thest' independent Members of
thav • ticuse thus to describe tfrni i and was this the course
wiziAth the Honourable
and Ilearred Lientleman might have
been- ,:xpOi.d to pursue when bringing 'forward what here
eiteea.as a nie.sure of relief in 'behalf of which he must desire
to uaite all parties for the benefit of the public. With respect
to: his observations on the past,' he ,would remark, that to'
ry co.r crn the phblic service -in a moment of danger was ohe
ainK; .and to review- it' when that danger had passed away was
a.;-titirer.—(Hear.)—But whki he talked of millions having
beetiSqUandered away, it ought to be remembered what the
vtalce of the pubhc had declared the occasion to which he
hair-reft:rreil. It was very Wel/ to talk: of the propriety of
ataining estimates before expense was inctirred. ki hat would
14.1.i* been the consequencelf Lord Wellington had waited for
es:chnates before he fortified the lines. of Torres Vedras ? Had

ti,fLgreAt Captain taken, such a course; that position would never
seeurz.d.'which had turned the whole tide of the war.

'lle Leamed gentlentan had spoken as if the Government
sittr tz,f the }rouse had been mad at the time, and that warlike

irici:mres had never inct with the support and approbation of
ae-other.:- Bat such-Was. not the Ciso, nor such the language
-otrthe Learned Gendeman and those who sat near him at

tll,riiine -when the enemy's
„Artily wazi assembling -at Boti.
Did the Honourable and Learned Gentleman -remem-
her bow measures Of defence Were then, called for Did he
re*:Uher how-a- gallant Qtaer (General Crawford) was always
iiingin't, this in their ears 'from- day to day ? Did he remem-

i'eAv a Right Hon. Genifernan; for whose memory
I;,e, hitch,ilie greatest respect, though he had differed froth him in
meant i%l r. Wyndham—did he remember how he
hTrresed Ministers on the seine point ?—lt was then nosecp,..tr that we werfortifying oar 'coast,:' for the works at Dover
were,.'brought- under the cogr.i%ance of Parliament. The
idea: if er'eCtint those works 'had ''not'ori,inated on - the i
- at the libirSe.;• but it -hat? •cerne. from their'
o..c..vevits'i4t had cOirie wi;if the sanction cf Mr. Wyniham's
he was so-highly thought of for the sUnestion, that
1:1‘., future arrangements •of those with whoin he acted, he
wit' made. OP-Witt irliSter. The /1 oi.1: and / JeaFn ed" Gen tle-

man-stall,. the. present (lo,vernni..tit h‘aci.s4trandered away four'
rreflionst•of rtiont4 to restore the triefillic currency of the coun-
try.: If tnis' were e4a;- win&
,just have been covered by the
v.nizoef,„idi • W-I;:aqiiandered when •M T. Wyndham was War Mi-
Li.:ter it, the way mentioned, for which the 'Learned Gentleman
had. voted, :vehich had .saddled on- the bark of • the' country
ficdt."•itil,lions.' of' debt. This- liati••'not • protaal.A. •froin the
pretTrt 'flovt.rnnient; but cioar. those' wt o n(137 reprewnted
tt.'%rtrr • to intte&i.beetr away-17y a military mania, and.
nevei‘yini WetJfl••-tal,l: upon hinlself to say, • hair the public
rneifiy • been,'• more improvidently, spent. Our' -currency
tniit:tha Weii.itstered withCiat'tlio expense being felt, had.
tnit five iniittons•C:b %,-ent on M. Wyirdliarn't plan been re•
to:cOvor it.. The !ton. atif: lattried Gentleman had
said? the 'Government 'had . so L-cindiact•-.xl. the: affairs' 0f the

coin try- th2Vtlie 'taxes. now to' bT,'lsorne,,vit.re equal to thok
141:1 Eoeir itupoid &ring. iiar. His statement of thei7.
stirtotuit might bert:alled in que4ion, nut ht>w waN ,he make
bat big ass.trtioll !' The fict wag, the, cotiary rid bee re
lit-vba-froni eightt,e:h: Tillirns in_-r-41mbne
continued.exemptfrom so niuc.;-: 0! t?
bfOrie• Ruhission of tziatlb'n st;.alr-an'arnobit
never
..3;ten euijoy'ed any country tEt'rford.
Ng" eff,et,of• this z.et s t.Ead be6rt.elipt-t-
-ott. mia (1--nct afforded thbtbuntrylib,tniirt a's• the kb.:
nburaille a.od 'Leaned' Clentliine;d:tolifif have (141:1:late& uiirr.
'lll..tilluubt:ll-,tri 'mi..' `to i:oos.otei ateat 'Wns.‘o,e- rent

„...
oUtitat. great 9itestion which (rad bee?) brought before than,
anti 'wtist itt•taner they:wootti- best disitharge their nt,—
OM t 1 111 opcjitid arrotioncett t tat
citlksio to Ite"jahottrilrg' Ander great clistei:si; it:11111.1e' link
l!trd Tatliaineal tor oitrice.''fie
stotyld, pity it 'no, t lrf FQuittiie, if laie Sort reit...n-0)0d 'fittetcs•
peeled .aideereitir at.istverittlitis t uriris S;tvich; tit thetAd-
drets iterieri:ifiately.tioli,dintrii)ly to it But this the Hotfaiiti
ltrOttied Gentleniao Iu thought•of propostng, CutticfaitY
H..”, thi+tl, Ilrrtthe lionse,O.oulti do its duty:it witttirt-lnee
or-ftair :nut 5-town:me-Ay gitt thiiSistion, they ;:eritrltltf;
uttt • itiquiry• ite•conic to-a deciiton-on'tt tiocstion
. _