The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-20 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

- -
Mr. PRENDERGAST presented a petition fionl the Mer-
chants and'others, of Galway, praying for a further remission
of the Salt Tax.--.-Ordeied to be printed.
Mr. LusHING-ToN brought in a Bill for the continuance
of the BountieS on the Greenland Fishery.—Rcad a first time:
The Report of the Irish Stamp Duties Bill was brought up,
and the amendment read and agreed to: '
SALT TAX.

On the Salt Duties Repeal Bill being read a third time, -
Mr. C. GRANT complained that the repeal of tkis tax Would
be most injurious to- the persons in Scotland employed in the
manufacture of kelp. Something ought to be done for this
class of persons, as this Bill would actually reduce them to a
state of misery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and -Mr. CAL-
CRAFT observed that the repeal of all-taxes must have an in-
jurious effect upon particular interests, but the general bene-
fit must supersede individual hardship. This interest had
upon a high war tax, tile repeal of which might have been an-
ticipated.
The Bill was then passed, the only arnendnient being that of
leaving oat the clause for the repeal of the duty on Sodama-
nufactured in this country, the duty therefore remaining as it
has hitherto stood on that article. . -
The Irish Salt Duties Repeal Bill was also read a third time
and passed.
- THE LATE QUEEN'S SERVANTS.
The House went into a Committee • on- the Queen's Servants'
Pension Bill.

Mr. HUAIE proposed that the individuals provided for by
this Bill should be placed on the Pension List, and not paid out
of the Consolidated Fund. He was sure if there wer&any wish
for economy, the Right lion. Gentleman would do that.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not ac-
cede to the suggestion of -the Hon. Member. The. length of
time that • must occur before vacancies offered, on the-Pension
List would be a sufficient objection.
Mr. BENNET thought the suggestion a most reasonable
one. It was only desired to place those individuals on the List
as vacancies should occur.:
The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the Report order-
ed to be received on Monday.
SCOTCH ROYAL BURGHS.
The Scotch Royal Burghs Accounts Bill ,was read a third
tim and passed. • -
The Scotch Burghs Magistrates Residence Bill was read a
third time.
Lord BINNING proposed a clause by way of rider, that the.
.majerity of the Town Council shall reside within three miles of
the Council Chamber. -
111.7.1 E proposed an amendment to include the Mern'
Sers of the 'fown.Council in the ciptration. of the- Bill, thereby
obliging the whole of the Members of the Council to reside
• within three 'milts of the town. This would be the only be-
nefit the Burgesses would have, and lie had rather lose the
,Bill for this Session than accept the half nieasure of the Noble
Lord. •
Mi. HOME DRUMMOND supported the amendment of
his'Hon. Friend (Lord Binning.),
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the clatise proposed by
his NOble Friend Was in compliance with the directions of the
Committee.

•'The House then divided---- •
- For Mr. flume's Amendment - • :20
Against it - - - • - - • - 26
• Majority against* - - —6
Lord BINN ixo's clause was then agreed to.
Mr. HUME proposed an Amendment, that no Revenue Of-
ficers.should he eligible•to be elected -Members of the Town-
Council ih BUrgliS which sent Members of Parliament or
Delegates.
Lord BINNING thought the exclusion of Revenue Offi6ers
to vtte for Members of Parliament was carrying the line fir(
enough, without excluding those individuals from situations of
this kind.

•
The House then divided— •
For the Amendment - - - 20
Against it - - - -
Majority - - —9 •
Lord BINNING presented a Petition from certain Journey-,
men Printers, complaining that they had been discharged from
their employment by their masters in consequence of evidence
giirembefore a Committee of that House, and praying the in-
tcrFerence of the House in their behalf.
Mr. HUME and Mr. SMITH supported the Petition, which
was read and ordered to be printed.
THE CONSULATE OF THE BRAZILS.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose .to call the a'tten
tion of the House to an order for• an address to the Crown
which had been voted on a late occasion at the end of the
night, when all other business had been disposed of. He al-
luded to an address for certain returns relative to the offices
of Consul and Vice-Consul of, the -Brazils, whipli the House
had been induced to accede to by the - assurance of the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen ,(Mr. Hume).' that it was in conform-
ance with an arrangement with him. He would state the nature
'of the address, and the House would then judge if it were likely
that he should agree to it. He had himself given notice of the
motion which the Hon. Member at that hour of the night made ;
and he begged to observe -that it was rather strange that the
Hon. Member should undertake his business for him. It was
at least unusual,- and certainly strange, -that in doing it the
Hon. Member should actually implicate him in a criminal of-
fence. • The Address was for returns of certaincorrespon-
dence, and also for the. amount received -by. the Consul for
the appointment of his.Viee Consul, with - the amount of. fees
received annually, and levied on the-British merchants trading
there.- This was distinctly alleging that Mr. Chamberlain had
sold the office of Vice-Consul, which was a _criminal offence,
cognizable as such by the law. He really thought. it was too
much at. two o'clock in the morning to induce the House to
vote such an Address, informing his Majesty of a .criminal
offence, the documents of which were deposited in the office
of one of his chief Secretaries. The Honourable Meniber, he
believed, also talked of the fees in question being extorted.—
Now,. in a letter he had received from Mr. Chamberlain, dated
Bth December, 1817, he stated that no consular fees were levied
at all, by him or his Vice-Consul—that nothing but notarial
fees were taken for noting documents, which might be'done by
any notary if the merchant chose, in place of the Vice-Consul.
He also stated that so far from his deriving emolument from
his Vice-Consul, that is 1815 he lost 7581. :and the following
year, 5781. and that his Vice-Consul was then on the point of
leaving him because he received only 7001. a year. Now it
was not likely that a man would give a large sum for an office
which it would not he worth his while to keep. He must say,
that on an address of so singular a _character he knew not what
advice to give the Crown, and he put it to the llouse and the
Hon. Member whether it was a proper way of doing public
business, to get up at the close of an evening to move such an
address ?—(Hear, heat !)
Mr. HUME was surprised to hear the complaint of the No-
ble Lord, when he remembered that the Noble Lord had told
him, a few days before lie moved, that he might have all the
information he wished for by moving. With regard to the
letter.the Noble Lord had read, he begged to say that the alle-
gations he had made were not his own, but those of 74 out of
78 resident Merchant; and it was also to be remembered, that
their Petition was later than the letter he had quoted, and that
the writer could not know better, than the merchants them-
selves. But he assured the Noble Marquis, that he had no
disposition to take any unfair advantage, and had he thought
it was not his wish, he would not have moved an that occasion.
For the future he would consult him more particularly when
he had similar motions to make, and he hoped ha would not

suppose he had wished to do any thing con r.try to the Nciale
Lord's wishes.

The•Alarquis of LONDONDERRY explained, that it had
been .his intention to Mine for papers on this subject of a more
comprehensive nature than the motion -.of the Hon. Member
Went to. All that he complained of was that part of the Ad-
dress which insinuated his knowledge of a criminal offence ;
and as they were both agreed in a desire of eliciting all infor-
mation on the subject, he suggested that the order for the Ad-
dress should be withdrawn, and he would take care that the
object of the foul Member should be complied with, '
lIUME then withdrew the order for the Address.
STEAM PACKETS.
Lord BINNING presented a Petition from certain Inn-
keepers, Coachinasters, and others connected with . the Dover
high-road tti' London, complaining of a great diminution of
business from tic Establishment of steam boats between Lon-
don and Calais. They stated, that upwards of 1200 horses en-
gaged on that road must in 'consequence of this be sold, and
700 families thrown. out of employment more or less... The
Revenue they stated 'would suffer by this alteration ii the mode
of conveyance. They prayed that a tax might be put on steam
boats.

Mr. BERNAL said he had been requested by his consti-
tuents of Rochester to support the prayer of this Petition.
After a few words from Mr. CALCRAFT and Mr. Mi:Siktrrni

Mr. 11. GURNEY took that opportunity of suggesting to
the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department the pro-
priety of appointing some one to-take the passports of the.alime
'at the Custom-house stairs, instead of coliglng the vesaela• to
stop at Gravesend.
•Mr. Secretary PEEL assured the lion. Gentleman that it
had always been his intention to remedy this evil whenavei he
should find that the paSsage by steam was fixed. He had now
found that it was so ; and he had that morning apppinicki a
person to. an office which would obviate the necessity of the
vessels stopping at Gravesend.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
THE DIANA TURKISH FRIGATE. . •
Sir B. MARTIN, in allusion to what had fallen from the •
Hon. and Gallant Member for Worcester (Colonel Davies) the
other night on the subject of the Turkish frigate in the ThaMel
taking in-military stores and British seamen, rose to state that
his statement was quite erroneous. He then read a letter front
Mr. Hamilton, in the office of the Marquis of Londonderry, to
the Admiralty, to permit the ornamental part of the vessel to
be furnished, but that nothing connected with the magazine or
arming of her should be done. If any More had been don; it
was the fault of the Dock Master. He bad written to inquire
on:the subject, and found that the only English sailor entered
to sail with her was the sailing master. He found that she was
capable of carrying 56 guns, but that not one was mounted.
As a merchant ship she came to this country, and as such, as
far as the Government was "qoncerned, she would go out of it.
If the Captain took on boat-a any military stores, he did so at
his own -peril.—(Hear, hear !)—The report, therefore; of the
Hon. and Gallant Member was quite wrong.
Colonel DAVIES heard, with great pleasure, the explana-
tion of the Hon. Baronet. No blame, he Conceived, attached
to him for having stated what had: been communicated to him
on a subject calling for such serious attention.
Mr. ROBINSON said, that when it was discovered that the
war was broken out, there were forty Greek sailors belonging
to the crew sent back at the charge of the Pacha of Egypt to
Greece. '
Sir B. MARTIN said, that the Captain had been refused-
the means of conveying powder abroad. -
Mr. W. SMITH presented a Petition from certain inhabi-
tants of Hornsey and Islington, against the Highgate. clhapel
Bill. •
Referred to the Committee.
Mr. GOULBURN presented a Petition from four of the
-CoMmissioners, appointed to inquire -into the Fees of Courts
of Justice in Ireland. They complained of some expressions
in a letter 'of the Lord Chief Baron, and expressed their readi-
ness to meet inquiry and scrutiny. •
" Mr. HUME asked how long thelahoUrs of this Commission
were expected to last ? •
Mr. GOULEURN said, that the Commissioners Were ap-
pointed to perform a certain duty, in w.,ich they had already
proceeded with great advantage to taro public. How long
they, would be oi.cupied in concluding it he bad no means of
• knOwMg.
• Mr. HUME said, that his reason for asking was, that he. had
received information of a very young man, Mr. Plunkett, hav-
ing been appointed one of these Commissioners. If these ditties
were so important; and likely to occupy a considerable time, he
thought the appointments ought to be limited to men who had
experienceand knowledge of legal matters, and
.of the partieu.
lar Courts to which the inquiry was directed.
.•
Mr. GOULBURN said, that it was quite true that Mr.
Plunkett had been appointed a Commissioner, and it was also
true that lie was a young man ; yet he was not so young as to
be disqualified by his youth; and those most conversant with
legal subjects, and wita the matters likely to come under the
attention of the Commissioners, knew that Mr. Plunkett was well
.qualified for the appointment.

ALIENBILL-
kr. PEEL moved the third reading of the Alien Bill.-ITh e
question ',:aving been pot from the'Chair„
- Mr. BERNAL expressed his strong disapprobation of the
principle and details of the measure. It-was no longer called
for by' any foreign war, but the ground on which it rested. was,
that it was necessary for the sake of preserving our friendly re-
lations with Continental States. He then proceeded to reply
to some remarks made on a former night in favour of the bill,
by the President of the Board of Trade : he (Mr. Bernal) con-
tended, that though it was only to continue for two years, it
contained in itself the seeds of perpetual regeneration. For the
eery reasons for which the measure was solicited, it might be
shown to be impolitic and unjust. If- the ordinary law were
not sufficient for repressing the plots and machinations of aliens,
when any extraordinary danger arose, thn: Minister might rely
upon Parliament to afford him powers equal to the emergency.
If projects against foreign States were concerted here, -it would
be amply sufficient to preserve the bonds of amity, that the en-
terprise should be communicated through the medium, of the
ordinary and established Envoys. From the rapid changes of
opinion and government that had taken place in our own day
in the old and new world, it was obvious that this very. Bill,
brought into operation against exiles of- one sentiment, might
be the very means of discord when the party professing that
sentiment again came into power. The Bill had the etiect of
producing a degree of suspicion and distiust in the minds of
strangers, wholly inconsistent with their previous notions of
British hospitality and generosity. Ile then entered into some
historical details, to show that this country had at all: cornier
periods previous to the adoption of Alien Bills, afforded to
foreigners a liberal shelter and an undistinguishing proteCtion.
Mr. WETHERELL commenced by complimenting his-Ho-
nourable Friend, the Member for Knaresborough, upon his
speech against this-bill, appreciating, as 'he did, as highly as
any one, the brilliance which it displayed. - But he considered
it also to be full of brilliant error, to which he preferred sober
judgment and plain facts. Being-confident that he had the
latter on his side in this argument, . however hazardous might
be the undertaking, he was ready to break a spear".with*nis
Honourable Friend upon this subject. His Hon. Friend and
laid down that it was hostile to the Constitution to send an
alien out of the country, after he had once landed in it. He
was prepared to contend, that the right of doing so was a prir..
civic of the Constitution, and that it appeared upon Magna
Charta itself. He argued that the exclusive admission of mer-
chant strangers, by that act, proved the recognitiob of a right
to prevent other descriptions of aliens prom coming tq -or re-
maining in the country. He took it, that upon the abstract
principle of right, no State was independent who could not
, say to the subjects of another State, You shall not come
here." His Honourable Friend, the Member for Knaresbo
rough, would not, he thought, deny this. Neither would it be
disputed' that the law gave the-. Government a- power over our
own subjects to prevent their going abroad, and if they were
abroad, to renal them. Then, if natural-born subjects were
liable to the exercise of this po*er over their movements, who
should say that aliens were to be put in a more favourable
situation, without arguing the point whether strangers should
have the same rights and privileges as the people of this cour,.
try ; die thought no one would be hardy enough to say, that
they should have greater ones. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tienian then went into an historical enumeration of cases in the
reigns of Elizabeth, James I. and George I. where subjects of
this country had been recalled, and disobedience to the Ring's
mandate punished with the confiscation of property. This, too,
was done without the parties having any appeal to the Piivy
Council, or elsewhere, as was provided for Aliens by the present
Bill. In the works of that great lawyer, Sir M. Hale, he had
nointed out two classes of persons who might be preventedland-
ing in this country, or being landed,might be directly sent away,
without infringing upon the provisions of Magna.Charta,.which
' referred only to merchant strangers. He was willing to„adtuit

• ' ' •

.that they could not find in historians any instance of the right
having been exercised, of Aliens having actually been sent
away under thiepower, until comparatively modern times. But
the question which he was arguing was the existence of the
-right. He then went into an historical account of the cases
-in which the right had been recognised by the acts of differ-
ent nnovernments. In the reign of Elizabeth the Huguenots
who had escaped from the general massacre repaired to this
country and found protection. They were demanded of the
Queen by Henry the Third, and what was the answer which
she returned ? Lord Burleigh and Mr. Secretary Smith were
men who knew the Constitution of this country, he thought,
quite as well as Gentlemen opposite. Their answer was a re-
• fusel to comply with the demand ; because, they said, it was
the privilege of Britain that foreigners were allowed to remain
in it until they misbehaved themselves against the Government
or thada,ws. Now if they had considered that they possessed
no right of sending away the Aliens in question, would not
the-direct answer have been, " We cannot comply, because
they have a right to stay here, and we have no power of pre-
venting them ?" They were not such bunglers in. diplomacy
as to send such an answer as they did, if they could have used
one such as he had described. There was another case, in the
reign of James, of one Antonia Perres, a Spaniard, Who was
charged with coming here to poison the Kings bind, and to
make the King of Spain unpopular, byintrigurng at the Court.
—lf it were said that these instances were not superabundant,
that they did not occur in every reign, from year to year, and
tom month to month, he would reply that the other side shewed
PQ instances at all of the right being denied. •His mind was
perfectly convinced that this Bill was ,consistent with the
earliest principles of the Constitution. The opinions of great
legal authorities had frequently been givsn in favour of the
right. He knew that opinions of this kind were taken' for very
aittle by Gentlemen on the other side. Sir W. Blackstone, ac-
..cording to the Hon. Member for Westminster, was a mere
bungler, having been convicted of blundering three different
- times. It was desirable, when this was stated, to see who were
the accusers, judges, jurors, and witnesses upon the trial of. Sir
W. Blackstone ; and when it was found that all these charac-
ters were united in Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he thought the
stain of these convictions would not shine very prominently
upon the character of that great man. His opinion was de-
cided upon this point. So was the late Lord Chancellor Ross-
lvn's, who stated it in the House of Peers in the presence of
the late Marquis of Lansdown, a man not very likely to have
been silent on such an occasion, if he had, believed, like the
Honourable Member for Knaresborough, that there was no
such right according to the Constitution. The present Lord
Chancellor, the Earl of Eldon, had declared the same opinion,
and all the greatest law authorities were in favour of it. He
was quite willing to allow that he went along with Gentlemen
-= opposite in a great measure upon the feeling of the question ;
but he never could let it go forth uncontradicted, upon the au-
thority of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, that the pre-
sent Bill abrogated the law of our ancestors, and tarnished
their glory and honour. There was another point which almost
-demonstrated the existence of the right. According to Magna
• Charm no alien but Merchants was allowed the right of domi-
cile. And this question was also mooted in the reign of Eliza- ,
beth, when it was decided that even merchant strangers should
not be allowed to hold an acre of land,a house being considered
all that was necessary for the purposes of their trade. So,
, then, it was to be seriously argued that an Alien had a right to
live here; and that Government did not possess the right to re-
move him, although he was not allowed by law to live in any
thing better than a one pair of stairs lodging. He was quite pre-
pared to admit that if an Alien who had committed a crime in
another country, sought an asylum in this, as long as he com-
mitted no crime against this country, he ought to find it an asy-
lum. He agreed that it was a proper test for the removal or
sufferance of an Alien, whether he had done any thing injuri-
ous to the State. He had no sort of hesitation in coming tothe
conclusion that it was an essential and intrinsic principle of the
Constitution, that the Executive Government should bade a
power of control over Aliens residing in or coming to the country.
-The Hon. and Learned Gentleman here referred to Bacon, to
she* that there was no appeal from the decision of a Judge, who
. awarded a writ of ne exeat regno ; and contended that'the Bill
on the whole did not violate any principle of our ancient law.
Mr. DENMAN said, that he felt placed in circumstances
of difficulty from both the speeches of his Hon. Friends ; the
-Srst of whom had tended to exhaust a subject already exhaust-
ed, and the latter (Mr. W.) from the ingenuity and learning
with Which he had put forward his arguments. He (Mr. Den-
- man) begged, however, to be allowed to offer his opinion on
the subject, not from any hope of preventing the Bill from
passing this Session, but because he hoped, that upon looking
oack to the debate, the 'House would be induced during next
Session to repeal the law. It was a circumstance in favour of
• his (Mr. Denman's) argument, that though the legal knowledge
of the Learned Gentleman had been against them, yet his feel-
ings were entirely in their favour. What indeed could he ask
s more than had been conceded by his Learned Friend, that his
learned and industrious research had not been able to discover
any law upon which the prerogative now claimed could be found-
ed.' His Learned Friend hadargued that the writ of Are exeatreg-
t3o stood upon the same footing. That argument was unfounded,
-for ample proof existed in the ancient books of the existence of
the writ of Are erect Regno. The rights that belonged to an
alien were inconsistent• with this Act. An alien might be an
executor, and the sole disability to which he was liable was the
• privilege of purchasing land. The distinction between alien
' friend and alien enemy should never be forgotten. The right
to sue was recognised in aliens by the law • and was it fair,
-that in the prosecution of these demands they might be sent
out of the country ? He argued favourably from the absence
of an individual, whose eloquence was calculated to excite uni-
versal delight (Mr. Canning). Perhaps, however, he should
regret the absence of one, whose voice, if raised +n behalf of
the stranger and the sojourner in the land, could not fail to
have excited a moral gratification, which must prove vain-
- able to the opponents of -the Bill. To hear that distin-
guished individual on any subject . was the highest possible
gratification, and at all events his complete silence on the
present 'Bill manifested, if not hostility, at least indiffe-
rence to the adoption of the Proposed measures. This ques-
. tion was to be decided by proclamations, but under what circum-
stances these proclamations issued did riot appear; but looking at
them, what were they? One was issued by Henry IV. ; and Lord
Coke, in alluding to it, said that it was against law.—(Hear!)—
Lord Coke said that the law was divided into three parts, Com-
mon Law, Statute Law, and Customs ; but the King's pro-
clamations formed, he said, no part of the law. This law ap-
plied to merchants as well as to all others, and therefore it was in
direct opposition to Magna Cherie, as well as to the whole spirit
of the Constitution. With these observations he should leave the
-legal part Of the question. But it had been said that the power
was not likely to be abused. Gentlemen did not consider
the immense weight and importance and difficulty imposed upon •
' the Secretary of State. The very inquiry whether a man was an
alien or not, was in itself a question of great delicacy, and that
• was to be decided by a Secretary of State, or at all events it
was to be decided without the interfetence of a Jury. In one
case it -happened that a man was sent out of the country by a
wrong name—by a mere mistake. How was the power to be
exercised ? Was it to be carried on by a system of espionage
and surveillance? It was in vain and unsound in policy to
say that the power would not be abused. He remembered that
,a clause was moved by a Right Hon. Friend of his (Sir J.
Mackintosh, on the approach of the trial of the Queen) to the
Bill, to prevent its operation against those who came over to
gyre evidence on that painful investigation. A Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite had indignantly refused to accede to that
proposition, which, he said, implied upon the part of the Go-
-vernment a disposition to deal unfairly with the administration
of justice. Yet in " two little months" afterwards it was dis-
covered that the agents of Government 'had used that power as
a threat against those who were inclined to visit England for
the purpose of giving evidence on that occasion. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman concluded by opposing the third read-
inß of the Bill
;sir ROBERT WILSON observed, that he had now heard
all the arguments in favour of the necessity of the Bill, and he
was now satisfied from these arguments, that it was most un'.,
wise, unjust and impolitic to adopt it. He was sure that Gen.
Uourgaud had been sent out of this country, on the accusation
of it worthless wretch, to whom he had lent some money. It was
strange that the Noble Lord who had signed the treaty of Chan-
tillon, and thereby guaranteed to the Emperor of France his em-
pire, should have objected to the continuance of some of that
Emperor's friends in England. He had that treaty in his posses-
mien; and although the Noble Lord had never wished to lay it be-
fore the House, the articles of it would spew that the Noble Lord
and the Allied Sovereigns had, by their signatures, offered to
guarantee France to the French Emperor, and to his successors.
The Noble Lord had, however, refused to allow the old Clergy-
man from St. Helena to stop evenfor a week in England; and
though, at the age of 74 years, that dergyman_wished to go to
Italy, he had by the Noble rd's Colleague been sent to Rot-
terdam. No country in Europe had an Alien Bill but Eng-
land', and the Noble` Lord might well boast of the state to
which they had reduced England, when she required a Bill
contrary in its principles to all the principles of its Consti-
tufon.
Colonel STANHOPE called the Bill good, wise 2 politic,
and just. He would support such a Bill ; and maintained that
it would deter no foreigner who had not been guilty of some
evil acts in his own country from coming into this country.—
The Hon. Member for Southwark had said that there was no
Alien Bill in France, but would the Hon. Member say what
was the power which had removed shim from France ? He
looked upon the Bill as a sword for the guilty and a shield for
the innocent. He contended that the House would-be justified
in sanctioning the Bill, inasmuch as his Majesty's Ministers
would be responsible for their acts under it.
Sir R. WILSON said, lie had been sent out of France by
!.',.tiatdpower which had:violated the Treaty of Paris.