The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 12.
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.
Mr. COBDEN (in coutinuation from our Third
Edition)—There was also anot.her ca..° which nearly in-
veigled them in a war with France, he meant the impri-
sonment of Mr. Pritchard by the French, in the island
of Otaheite. That gentleman acted in the double cap
city of Missionary and British Consul, and when the
news of his imprisonment reached this country, feelings
of the greatest animosity towards France were excited in
this country. So much was that the case, that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tatnworth, who was
Prime Minister at the time, was oblige d to confess in
his place in that House that a gross insult had been
committed, and he put it to the Right lion. Baronet
whether, in 1844, when the bad feeling caused by that
6iiqu.e was at its height, he would not have telt happy
could he have been enabled to put in operation a system
of arbitration for the settl-ment of that dispure such us
he proposed?—(Hear ) lie might e told that none of
those disputes had led to war; but although they did not
leAd to actual confliet, they had already cost the country
fifty millions sterling. lie could, therefore, c :neeive
no argument for the refusal of so simple an expedient
as he proposed. It was true the Hon. Member for

Stafford- (kr. Urquhart) had put on the paper an amend-
ment to his motion,•but that amendment was founded on

a wrong idea of his motion. The Hon. Member had
coaceived that he had found out some p'an for putting
the whole world under a sort of court of peace officers;
but that was a mistake, arid if lion. Gentlemen had pre-
pared their speeches in opposition to his motion on that
understanding, they would be altogether mistaken.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Thu Hon. Member for
Siaffurd seemed to be exeeedingly happy in tacking
himself to the tail of some other Hon. Member, in order
to get a hearing in the House.—(Laughter.) But he did
not at the same time think it right that his motion
should be confused and adulterate d, by mixing it up
with the amendment the Hon. Member had proposed to
it.—(Hear.) He had no doubt that he would also be
told that the aspect of the present times, more especially
that of the country, was a reason against the adoption of
his proposition. But he thought the position of affairs
on the continent and elsewhere was a strong reason
why it should .be adopted. The exhibition they had
there had of war certainly could not prejudice
them in its favour ; and in one case, that of Den-
mark and Schleswig Holstein, it had been attended with
the most disastrous consequences to the commerce of the
country. In no case could arbitration have been more
eff,ctually used. Without it there would be no end to
the quarrel, for the one party was strong at sea, and the
other was strong ashore, so that they would never fight
it out. Were the Government by this non-intervention
punishing the people of Denmark or of Sicily? No, but
they were entailing the greatest losses on the manufac-
turers of Manchester, and on the miners of Northemb r-
iand, and also the people of Gironne and of America
were suffering much, which could be alleviaited by arbi-
tration. Yet it should be understood that he did nut
mean that arbitration should be adopted in the case of
the pirate of Borneo or with the savage native of Tim-
huatoo. but his object was that the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for the Foreign Department (Lord Palmerston)
should enter into such arrangements with the United
States of America, with France, and even with the weak-
est nations of Europe, such as Tuscany, Belgium, and
Holland, so as to prevent, by every possible means the
probability of warfare, as even the probability create d
much expense and serious losses to this country, and
to the others to which he alluded. He did not at all
agree with those parties who were for the congress of
nations, but he thought that great civilized nations
would be all powerful, for they would be looked upon as
authorities in the case of any disputes, and that thus
peace, harmony, and concord, would be settled among
nations.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see anything Uto-
pian in his measure, nor did he see anything in the state
of European society to prevent this measure of arbitra-
tion from being brought to a safe, useful, and happy
conclusion. He did not mean to dwell on any topics
that may tend to thwart his motion, for such he believed
would tend to mischief; but if others, who were opposed
to him, touched on them be would say it was better not
to go too far, for his plan did not tend to any other re-
sult than that of benefit to society at large. The worst
opposition that could be offered to him was that he did
not wish to go to war, and such was the wish and opi-
nion of 2,000 petitioners, buch had been declared by
numerous meetings, by mayors and town councils, and
by the immense body of society. He then moved, "That
an humble address be presented to her Maj-sty, praying
she will be graciousiy pleased to direct her principal Se-
cretary of State for Foreign Affairs to enter into com-
munication with foreign powers, inviting them to concur

in treaties, binding the respective parties, in the event of
any future misunderstanding, which cannot be arranged
by amicable negotiation, to refer the matter in dispute to
the decision of arbitrators."

Mr. EWART seconded the motion, and said that he
knew from the last message of the President of the
United States, that it was consistent with the power of
great nations, that arbitration should be adopted as much
as possible, and he believed that the good and great of all
nations would lend a helping hand to bring about this
great and imp•trtant measure of his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Cobden). lie felt assured that all persons who were for
the abolition of the slave-trade, and the abolition of
death, would support the motion; and that ere long
the wish for such a measure woud prevail throughout
all Europe. He would therefore give it his most cordial
support.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said, that whatever might be
the opinion of the House about that motion, there c uld

be hut one feeling that it was brought on at a very inju-
dicious time. Ile remembered that the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Cobden) stated .SOll.lO time since, ti at there could
' be no great revolutem such as that which occurred in the
year 1789; when six days after that assertion France
broke out in all the violecce of revolution; and when
such was the caee, he would ask the House, could any
more inappropriate thee be chosen for such a re-
solution than the present. He recollected that two
members of the Peace Society, Mr. Crisp arid Mr.
Lloyd, stated after their visit to Paris, that there
existed the most amicable feeling between France
and England, and that those feelings would be yet
more strongly cemented, but yet the Hon. Member
(Mr. Cobden) disowns that they represented the
opinions of the Peace Society. He did not mean to allow
him to shirk from their doctrines and principles, though
he (Mr. Cobden) might disown them as friends. Ho
recobected that Mr. Elihu Burrit stated at a meeting
over which the Hon. Member for Ashton (Mr. Hindley)
presided, that they went to Paris and had an interview
wi:h Lemartine, and he (Mr. Burritt) stated that the
Peace Society must compensate Lamartine by making
him President of the Universal Congress.—(Leughter.)
He saw that the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was help-
ing out the views of the Hon. Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire, and that he had already acted as
a mediator in Sicily, in Russia, and at Reme.—(Cries
of " No, no.") Well, if he did not mediate at Rome,
Captain K ter, of the Bulldog, was there, and in several
other places, and was always on the alert to interpose, by
whose orders he did not know. On the whole he ob-
jected to the Noble Lord's policy to srttle mat:ers as he
had attempted-, for nothing could tend to bring England
to a war more than such intermeddling, for he thought
that the greatest principle of this empire was sacrificed
for the sake of peace. He would press the pel;cy
Mr. Pitt, who stated that there were occasiuns when
the interests of this country should be supported, even
at the risk and expense of war. Look what the
President of France stated lately. "We hold the des-
tinies of Europe, for if France is tranquil Europe is
so; if not the whole continent must feel the result."
He did not think that the p,esent was a time to
bring forward such a measure, and considered that there
was a great similarity betwe,n the Montaigne of France
and the Montaigne of England. Ho hoped that the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Cobden) would not only disown his
friends but his motion for the present.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said he did not think that the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. B. Cochrane) had responded to
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden). He %las not ambitious
of martyrdom, but was pr. pared to share whatever odium
may be cast on him for this motion. He recollected, as
he passed through Belgium, having seen over the gates
of Tourney, " Li pacem velis pare bellum," and in that
he coincided, for he wished, in concurrence with his
Hon. Friend, that this country should be always pre?
pared to meet hostilities.

Mr. MACKINNON considered that this motion was

likely to prove beneficial to all Europe, if carried, for
the state of war and all its evils were as rife in this
_ _

age of civilization as they had been eight hundred
years ago, in the middle of the dark ages. He hoped,
therefore, that so important a motion would not be
lost sight of. The alteration introduced into the mili-
tary art, by the invention of gunpowder, had materially
benefited the human race, by rendering battles more
decisive and more speedily concluded, thereby lessen
ing very considerably the amount of bloodshed which
was formerly the great incident of a long war. So great
was the change thus occasioned, that a great war in mo-
dern times must be a war of necessity, whereas in former
times it was commonly a war of invasion or ambition;
and, therefore, as wars were at the present time fur less
likely to occur, the motion of the Hon. Member for the
West Riding, considering it in no other light than as a
mere experiment, might be entertained and adopted with
no real apprehension of danger. The principal objection
to the plan of the Honourable Gentleman was one, cer-
tainly, of much weight, and he wished to draw the
attention of the Honourable Member particularly to it.
If a civil matter were in dispute between A and B, and
it were agreed to refer it to arbitration, and ultimately
to an umpire, in case of the arbitrators disagreeing, they
would be bound by a rule of Court to submit to the
decision of the arbitrators or umpire, and the Court
would have power to enforce the award. But in a
national dispute with another country, referred to a
similar process of decision, the stronger nation might
endeavour to enforce its views by violence, notwith-
standing the decision.
Mr, COBDEN—The same argument applied to all
treaties.

Mr. ACKINNON—But treaties were not successful
if they ended in a war.
Mr. COBDEN—But you have not yet tried whether
these decisions would be successful.—(Hear.)
Mr. MACKINNON—That was very true, and he
was quite disposed to admit that the proposed system of
arbitration was an excellent thought. At the same
time he thought it would be of peat service, by ex-
pres,ing a favourable opinion upon the question, to show
to Europe that this country had peaceable intentions,
combined with the desire to give effect to them. For
this reason, and out of respect to the Hon. Gentleman
who had moved the resolution, he should give it his
willing support.—(TlPar.)
Colonel THOMPSON said that having instructions
to support the motion, he should do no more than state
that he did so most heartily, and that he trusted it might
meet with all success. lie felt convinced that political
societies would go on improving on the question of war;
and with regard especially to the present question, he
thought it wutahaed so much that WAS wise, according

to human reason, that he hailed it as the beginning °f a
greet Europe to and worldly reformation.—(Hear.)'
Mr. URQUHART rose to move an amendment in
the fie m of the foliuwing resolution :—" That, to settle
differences by any extranational judicatory, would, if
practicable, ho the subversion of the independence of
each state, and the ex, metion of the law of nations.'' The
lion, Metuber said that if the motion were agreed to and
carried into practice, he could nut understand how they
could cal: upon a Minister of State, fur F. reign leffuirs for
an explanation of his policy with regard to any interne-
tienal qusstion. The natural effect of such a system
would be to deprive him of all judgment and power on
any sudden emergency. The power of the Crown would
be abrogated, and the independence of Parliament itself
extinguished. The Hon. Gentleman who moved this
resolution had himself destroyed the chiet argument
upon which he recommended its adoption to the House.
The Honourable Gentlenem said that the argument of
the insecurity oe arbitration applied equ illy to ell
treaties, aid that was equel to an admission of the in;
security of his own. He (Mr. Urquhart) much regretted
that the attention of the country should be diverted by
propositions of this kind from matters of greater lat.
portance. He had intended to move a resolution by weY
of anneadmeet, but finding the case of the lion. Mem.
bar opposite so obviously weak, he should abstain from
doing so:
Mr. HOBHOUSE supported the resolution, and said
it had been treated as many great innovations had he?
before, as a mere chimera, unworthy of attention. Pa
conceived that all the wars that had affl:cted Europe
were in a great measure from the want of this arbitra-
tion, as in many instances a nation would have fa•
linquished its design if it could have found a p AUS
eible
pretext for so doing. If that were not so, what Mant
their protocols, diplomatic notes, demands, and re'
joinders, except that each nation wished to place
sawn before the world in the best light possible. 1,13;13
adoption of a general system of arbitration would in his
opinion, supply the want which he was convinced bad
been the cause of much mischief. That seemed, s'
least. to be the common sense view of the matter.- It
might be that the stronger nation would atterwarde rem
suit to the settlement of the sword, for men were too AP'
to set might against right. But was that to reason "vll
they should not attempt to prevent evil consequences 111
the first instance?—(Hear.) Let them endeavour to ce-
ment nations together in a general compact, by applYing
to them the rules which governed the relations el:;
isting between individuals. Let wars be avoided, and
right and justice substituted in their place. For his
own part, he was grateful to the Hon. Member forf
having moved :the resoltvion. admired the ski,'"
wisdom, and firmness, with which the Noble Lord at t"°
head of the Foreign Department had prevented in ibis
country the horrors which had recently desolated the
fairest portion of the word (Hear, hear.) But be
wished to atm him with new powers, and to ask hila
who her it was not better at once to lead the way in a
reform of this kind, than to be perpetually talking 1°
favour of peace and doing nothing to procure it ?"
(Hear, hear.) He should Ile to see the power of negu"
tietiog and enforcing peace, and seeing that that WLlkli,
practicable, as in the recent case of Sicily, he thought
the House ought to give full attention to the motion be;
fore it. He should like to see the experiment tried, an"
he counselled his Hon. Friend, if he might so call Mali
to go on in the course of. justice which he had marked
out for himself. The Hon. Member then adverted t9l‘
;
Council of Sovereigns recently convened as the Conte•
nout, tor the purpose of !slinging about peace by.arbitrs'
tion. It was a just course, and had been found, In Mall
instances, where tried, a successful one. He wi.thed, then,
to give to that which had been found Practicable ise
.
stamp of Parliamentary authority, and should, from
full sense of the, justice of the course proposed by the
Hon. Member, give him his support, feeble though I
was, and vote for his motion.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON assured his Hdn.. Friend the
Member fir the West Riding, and the House, that it was
e
far from his intention to regard the motion now untie'
discussion with indifference. He agreed with his It
nourable Friend that it was of the greatest conseque°4
that questions involving the peace. of nations should
1';
settled, if possible, without the intervention of war
er
whose horrors and calamities no man could have a deeP t
sense cf than he bad,—(Hear, hear.) He Would a%
contrast the advantages that might arise out of the
horrors of wer with those which were t° t
obtained from peace. Ho believed there did o°.
exist a man who did not do all in his power to nodes
your to save his country from the calamities of iiwar;
o,
and although he could not himself agree with his .°115,1
Friend so far as to vete for his motion, still-he woe gbe.
that his Hon. Friend had brought it forward, for he
lieved that there was, in the minds of the people ° thi ,
,fAhe
mu to
country, and of every honest man, a desire to e
horrors and calamities of war. But he was
ltanxiunil.o,
impress at ti e same time on the minds of all penile
that while England was anxious to have peace, Y sdi,
was ready, and it was her interest to be re.ev,
to defend her rights against foreign aggreesitjuid
come from what quarter it might.—(Hear.) cot
conceive nothing that could bring into jeopardy _to,
„i
peaceful relations of this country more than 1
that 1
foreign nation should suppose that they were attacn.r;
to peace, that they dare not go to war, or draw "lee
sword in their defence.—(dear, hear.) He quite agre:!
with his Hon. Friend, and with those who acted vvi
him, that it was moat desirable that there should not ts.w
any wastevul application of the funds of the country 1:
keeping up a larger amount of force than necessary febh
the deteoce of the country.—(Hear, hear.) But v'it4
regard to their defences, the absence of the mesh
be attended with the worst consequences.
j'a
was necessary, also, that they should he so provi"es
against the first outbreak of war, as to be ready 0!1.t„
moment to met t the exigency with naval and W.
tary means. IL said he could not agree with the pro;
posal of his Honourable. Friend, because he thonCe
it W-143 founded on erroneous principles, and that:
would be impracticable. His Honourable Friend :7,,
to his concluAoos by the analogy which he life.
between the affairs of private and public.,6o
He said that in ordinary transactions between "'sets
and man matters of dispute were not uncommonly
tied by arbitration; but what might be effected betweeee
individuals was not so easy of accomplishment betwoet
nations. Besides, if the question in arbitration w!,5..0,1
conformed to by individuals, there was a higher trluhmich
to which they were at liberty to appeal, and
t°
le-
they eummonly submitted their differences for
meet, and by whose decision they were obliged t° 'caters
His Hon. Friend said that element was wanting in in the
naConal questions. His lion. Friend hal alluded Veto,
question of mediation between nations. But Hon. -weeett
hers ought not to lose sight of the distinction betwfre,
arbitration and mediation—a distinction which wacsiefiei•
quently forgotten. The Noble Lord here gave a ,
tion. in the diplomatic sense, of the two terms, finae!,
ceeded to remark that his Hon. Friend was so well ram
of the difficulties of his own plan, that he abandonen6irst
course which he marked out fur himself in the

instance. h
Mr. COBDEN assured the Noble Lord that hade
never altered his plan.
Lord PAL NIERSTON—The plan of his Hon. .c r.--
;ad,
if acted upon, would rs.qtare the intervention of soria
third pwer. But the plan of his Honourable Fr,ie-pu
had never been acted upon. It was true there had
cases of international arbitration ; but there wer°ol,
such cases as his Honourable Friend alludtd to.
Honourable Frien f who had just sat down (Mr t-l?eg
house) had said that it would be a very desirable thtld
if an European tribunal could be composed which w°tiot
act in matters of dispute between nations on princiews
justice and mediation ; but unfortunately the veer/I/ear,
not yet equal to that- hippy state of things•—,k„hey•
hear.) If they could find persons perfectly just, 'fiecl
co
could find persons impartial, if they uld hid
persons perfectly disinterested—if they could ads
mightwtharetri(izosllepebeaerrtiewcheteeison2flotefbentu.:th,
almtitosnii
se eh
wto
as
such, all Governments might easily settle .„:1
outfliotrttl euhnad:iiisenel (;sescuwocuhhri
nature, that Governments
acted upon lilts individuals, and wereaw adctuba Impres-
ji
sions and cottflictine interests of variousae kinds•
was, in effect, so differenr, that it would be *11%;
impossible between two nations to form a GoYer°ll3,,,u-ld
with which those nations, in a matter of dispute, /iv-,
be satisfied. There was one ease in which this coun,q
submitted to arbitration, that of the Oregon boueo%,
between the United States and British North Aluer.iteea
and in that case, after some temporising, the
ds
States chose a S.,vereign—the King of
the Netherlan
—to whose arbitration the question between the two lag
tions was submitted. But the United States, notai
likthe award, refused to submit to it, and the result was t
the case was left once more to take its course betwoo
the two nations, and was it not for the good souse.Lf
"
two Governments, the matter might be yet in "f
With respect, then, to the proposal of his Hon. Fl,'etha
the answer would be the conflicting interests eulnoltl
hostile policy of nations towards each other. Itch
be quite impossible to bring,nations to agree with -del
other in the manner and on the principles recolnrae,° for
by the Hon. Member; and he (Lord Palmerston) et
one must say, that it would be most unwise to stlie
England to the chances of such a plaa.—(llelT) o-
wes not sure that he ought to compliment the fxrd
posal of his Honourable Friend. The Noble ats
here gave an outline of his notion of Mr. C°b"etwo
plan, and said that he thought the proposal for set
nations to name a man of science to arbitrate segos,
was not free film objection. Now, if it W 5 °OO
jectionable, as he thought it was, to commit the intere
of their country in matters importing their dearest, tilt
most essential rights, he must say he thought they °goo
to be cautious how they took any step that would espied
those rights and interests to the decision of any t",-ut
party, and that would be by, displacing a Governolsor.
substitute as a person in private life; because G°°,,„e ut
ments acted in a manner before the world, and diffel,
from individuals in private life. And if they, tot' or
man in private life whose mind was not quelifiem•
such a position, in his humble opinion the same obJene
Lion would apply. They all knew that there was eciy,
pmblem which was considered a great difficulty, n,uln-but
the ascertaining of the longitude—(Laughter)
ascertaining the latitude was always considered v,eee,,
easy.—(Renewed laughter.) Now, in the first pa'' to
suppose a Commissioner appointed to endeavourer
trace disputed territory, and that they wanted to esri..
tain the boundary. as in the case of the Oregon tern 6
tory, his Honourable Friend says—" Oh, you are 11,0--;
to proceed unless on geographical principles."--(re,..
laughttr.) Well, two scientific men—philosopbellfea
astronomers, he would call them—such as the celebrS.o
Professor Humboldt, and another, are called in, and
they are told that they are to ascertain the latitude, "go
to give the limits of the respective territory. irbel of
to work, and one of the astronomers says...—. The /into
difference is only to be ascertained by striking the itbe
through the centre of the earth"—(Laughter)—and die
other says, *.No, it is wide of; that; the line of
Iwo
terence can only ba ascertained by striking the ria
t
through the centre of the sun"—(Much laughter) —l."04
so those two learned men left the question cabers
hO°
found it. Now, in his opinion, met persons ss 6

.ro not qualified to settle disputed questions of
boundary.
Mr. HUME—The boundary was settled though.
Lord PALMERSTON—Not by a " geographer."—
(Laughter.) His Hon. Friend said that there Ras
mothing new at the b Atom of his proposal. He assured
Ills Hon. Friend he was mistaken ins material fact, be-

cause it was not true that when a Government s nt
Plenipotentiary to carry on a negotiation, whether for
Peace or war, notwithstanding that full and entire powers
were entrusted to him, that the Government were bound
to comply with everything he did. So long as he con-
fined himself to his instructions, the Government were
bound not by his acts, bet by their own authority; but
the moment the envoy outstepped his instructions, his
Government were not bound by his acts. A treaty
concluded—although there mieht be no reason to
taPPose that the Envoy had exceeded his instructions—
was of no avail until it had received the ratification of
the Government for which he was acting. He assured his
Lion. Friend then that his proposal was new. His Hon.
Friend had quoted several cases of international nego-
tiation. If his Friend had quoted cases in which at bi-
tratien had succeeded—in which, he would say, arbitra-
tion had frequently been submitted to, and, having been
submitted to, had succeeded—he (Lord Palmerston)
'night be disposed to view his motion in a more favour-
able light. His Hon. Friend had enumerated several
eases where he said the principle of arbitration had been
successfully carried out; and amongst these cases he had
referred to those of the Vixen and the boundary ques •
tion, to which he bad already alluded. But the case in
relation to the Vixen had been amicably settled between
this country and Russia, without the intervention of a
third party; therefore that case did not illustrate the
advantages of the principle of arbitration. Then there
was the American boundary question. In that case ar
bitration, as he had shown, had failed, and ultimately
the matter was disposed of in the usual way, through
the medium of negotiation. This example, instead of
being in favour of the principle of arbitration, went to
'bow that it was wholly unnecessary in the settlement
of disputes between nation. Then, in the case of the Ca-
rolina, the United States and this country were anxious
t° Come to a mutual settlement respecting it, but the Pre-
sident and the United States could come to no under-
standing with England on the subject, as the State of
New York might object to the arbitration, and, there-
fore, it was necessary that the qustion should be settled
in a court of law. This again showed that arbitration
Could not always apply beneficially. At the same time
be must say that he thought it was a most destrable
thing when two nations fell out that a third party, who
could and would act impartially should be called in, in
order that he might effect by his calmer reason a corn
promise between the contending parties.—(Elear, hear.)
But he thought the practice at present existing between
nations was opening the door to this principle becoming
very general. He had himself acted very much on this
principle, and for which he had frequently been held up
tiapublic obloquy.—( Hear, hear.) But he felt very easy
under .those charges—satisfied that England, whether
the succeeded or not, was justified from her high political,
'manufacturing, and commercial position, in offering her
Mediation in respect to the affairs of other countries with
whom she was on terms of friendship —(Cries of
" Hear, bear.") His Honourable Friend, and those
Who act with him, must be gratified in finding
the principle upon which their views were based
!'as coming into general operation. His Hon. Friend
had said that the wars which now convulsed the cond•
nent of Europe were not the wars to which it was pro
Posed to apply the principle of arbitration. He quite
agreed with him in this view of the case, and he must
here observe that it was a satisfactory proof of the im-
proved civilization of nations. and of classes, to find that
"filet was now going forward had not embroiled the na-
tions of Europe in hostile wars. Such matters could not
have occurred half a century ago without the nations of
-turope being in direct hostility with each other. The
practice of mediation bad prevailed in many places, and
had been put into op-ration by this country frequently
I)etween 1825 and the present time, and it would be the
duty of this Government, or of any Government, as it
wauld be also their pride, to saften down the asperities
arising between nations, and to endeavour to settle the
differences existing between them, either without having
recourse to war, or by shortening war. Therefore, the
motion of his Hon. Friend was not one which he could
'Amu, the House to assent to. He thought it was one
Which no foreign country could adopt, and it would be
°ulcerous for this country to be bound by the principle
Involved in it. For these reasons he could not agree
With the motion. lie should not, however, negative the
proposition, but would move the previous question, as
nat would be the most courteous mode of meeting it.
mile therefore begged to move the previous question.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that his Hon. Friend had con-
sidered this question fully, and he never entertained the
!tnpracticable views suggested by the Noble Lord. If
the desire for peace was so general, how was it that it
became necessary to have such large armaments as they
fold in this country? He did not think the Noble Lord
fhad furnished him with any good argument to induce
him to vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend. The
Noble
Lord said that theme were defects in the principle
of arbitration. Who denied this? But did fighting
settle it? Vatel, who was in favour of arbitration, had
admitted that it might be defective; but he went on to
say that it was better they should fail in arbitration than
have recourse to bloodshed. There was the question
Which had taken place between America and England.
He alluded to our taking British seamen out of Awe
titan vessels. We fought about it until both got tired
of doing so, and then came the treaty of Ghent, in which
not one word occurred in reference to this cause of
quarrel between America and England. We did not
settle it that day; it might still be a cause of quarrel.
He contended that the question might have been settled
by arbitration. The Noble Lord object, dto prospective
arbitration. If the proposition of his Hon. Friend had
one good quality more than another about it, it was the
fact of its anticipating differences between nations.—
(Hear, hear.) He confessed that he believed his Hon.
Friend's opposition was a most practicable one. It was
only asking nations to heap their objects upon principles
of justice. If their views were ambitions and their ends
aggrandisement, then he could understand ally nations
might object to act in accordance with the object con-
templated by the motion of his Hon. Friend. If any •
thing could prove the value of his Hon. Friend's propo-
sition, it would be, the result of all their wars to crush
Public opinion on the continent. Money had been spent,
a great amount of' blood had been shed, and yet the
Power of public opinion was just where it was. The
Hon. Member then referred to the opposition given to
the proposition of his Hon. Friend by certain public
journals, and yet one of these journals had recently an
able article to show the value of peace over war, and thus
jastifeing this motion, the object of which was to get rid
of war.—(gear.) The Hon. Gentleman read an extract
from the article in question in support of his statement.
lie could read to the House many extracts, to show
Lite horrors of war, which were greater than those
attendant upon slavery. The Hon. Gentleman then
lead extracts from letters, in which the horrors of the
late Indian war were vividly pourtray ed. The Right
;Lao. Gentleman continued to read extracts giving de-
tisane of the results of the war in India, and went on to
more
that teething could induce men to adopt arbi.ration
, then by lessening the advantages of war, and first
1,37 would do away with privateering.—(Hear, bear.) At
this time they had so many as 700 letters of marque in
"Is country. Nothing was worse than the system of
.rieateering, as it was the worst species of robbery. and
valeserved the severest punishment. He would next do
an inducement
with prize money—(Hear, hear)—for it held out
inducement to war, and as a precedent fur the proposi-
u°ll of his Hon. Friend, he would call attention to a
treat}', which had the sanction of the names of Adams,
Jefferson and Franklin—a treaty which had been en-
tered into between the United States of America and
r ussia, in the time of Frederick the Great, and which
was called the Treaty of Amity and Commerce. Ac-
oording to that treaty, cultivators of the land, fishermen,
and unarmed merchants of the seas were to be protected,
and exempted from the horrors and the consequences of
War.—(Hear.) The NoblrfiLord (Palmerston) said that
the four cases which had b. en cited by his Hon. Friend
had been settled in the ordinary way. Now, as to the
Oregon case, he (Mr. Milner Gibson) had no doubt that
the force which the Noble Lord said this country had at
its back at the time rather increased the difficulty than
smoothed the way to a settlement of the boundary guys-
tion. Before he. sat down he would address a few
words to his agricultural friends, who were said to be
favourable to war, and would desire to impress oa them
that the time was gone by when they could associate
in their minds a state of war with a rise in prices.—
(Hear.) The state of protection had passed away, and
they could not again, as in 1815, fall back on the laws
of protection. England was not likely ever again to be
engaged in a long war. They could no longer increase
their indirect taxation—and it was abundantly proved
that, if England should engage in war, the property
of the country must pay, and that was a grand
security they bad against the chances of war.—(Hear.)
ue was sorry the Noble Lord bad concluded with the
Motion he had made, as he would rather have seen the
motion of his Hon. Friend decided upon its own merits.
Although the proposition of his lion. Friend could not
(2.Perate in such a case as that of the unjustifiable inter-
rkrence of France in the affairs of Rome; and although
the Noble Lord had disclaimed any participation in that
interference, there had been some suspicion thrown upon
the Government, partly owing to the articles which had
appeared in certain English journals abusing the Tri-
umvirate the de facto Governors of Rome, and particu-
larly Mazzini, whom he had the pleasnre of know-
' lag, and from that knowledge he felt confident that the
. aspersions cast upon him had been most unfounded.
Whatever opinions had been previously entertained, they
Iliad now the satisfaction of having a distinct disclaimer
on the part of the British Government, which he hoped
would not be without its weight, as nothing he
conceived could be more unjustifiable than the course
which had been pursued by France with reference
to Rome.

Mr. ROEBUCK said the Hon. Member for Man-
chester (Mr. M. Gibson) had expressed his regret that
the Noble Lord had concluded his speech by moving the
• previous question, but he (Mr. Roebuck) must say, that
- although he disliked the conclusion of the Noble Lord's
speech, he must at the same time admit that he bad
never listened to any speech of the Noble Lord's with
more pleasure, or one that was throughout distin.
guished by more. enlarged and liberal views, and by a
more comprehensive philanthropy.—(Bear, hear.) He
said that without intending to admit that the Noble
Lord's acts were always in accordance with his speeches,
ha. ras it his intention to enter into an examination of
tit Joble Lord's foreign policy. He disliked the mode
of argument adopted by the Hon. Member for Man-
chester in the course of his speech, and the very minute
details he entered into of individual ratsery. They
were all aware of the miseries of war.—(bear.) It
Was his belief, however, that they should read the na-
lions of Europe a good lesson, and it was upon that
ground that he meant to support the resolution of the
lion. Member (Mr. Cobden). He did not participate in
guy -Utopian views on'the subject, nor did be expect
that peoge would be altogether proyented from going to

war. The sole pr iposition which would be embraced
in the adoption of the motion of his Hon Friend would
be this, that with all their strength, and all their power,
and all their advantages, this country would be the first
to ask other nations to settle their differences by an ap-
peal to reason.—(Hear.) And how had that proposition
been met by the Noble Lord (Lord Palmeeston)? He
did not directly oppose it; but he mov, d the previous
question, which was, in tact, admitting the principle,
but simply saying that the present was not the tune for
adopting the proposition. Now he (Mr. Roebuck) would
say that, considering the state of Europe, the present
was precisely the time for its adoption, and he would,
therefore, fix the Noble Lord to that, and meet him
upon the point. Nations, like individuals, lost their
tempers too frequently, and went to war instead of
appealing to common sense. The case of the Caroline
was peculiarly the case of a nation losing its
temper. The Government of the United States was at
war on that subject with the British Government. The
Governments, it left to themselves, would have no diffi-
culty in settling the dispute ; but the people interfered.
That was not a case to be brought forward against the
proposition of the Honourable Member for the %Vest
Riding. As had been truly stated by the Noble Lord at
the head of the Foreign-office, arbitration was in this
matter of the Caroline employed between England and
America. The King of the Netherlands acted as an
arbitrator. -He gave a decision in our favour. The
Americans, however, objected to it, and by their con-
duct rendered the arbitration null and void. This was
accepted by the British Government, possibly because
it was thought certain the United States Government
would not accept it. Now, what he wan,ted was
that England should, by adopting his Honourable
Friend's proposition, set an example to all nations to
avoid, as much as possible, appeals to arms.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not believe that, if they adopted the
proposition, wars would cease at once, or that_ there
would be less chance of war occurring among
the less instructed people ; but he did believe
that the effect of their adopting such a resolution
would be to induce other nations to come to their de-
cision. All he asked the Noble Lord at the head of her
Majesty's Councils to do was, to give them the sanction
of his opinion that the plan, it it could be adopted,
would be a wise mode of settling the disputes of nations.
They ought to consider the effect of that night's debate
on the empire at large. The speeches there delivered
would go out to the world as the sentiments of the
greatest deliberative assembly in the world—an assem-
bly at the head of a most powerful and peaceful people.
They represented a united people, and the force of their
expressions were estimated, not by the worth of the in
dividuals who gave them utterance, but of the commu-
nity in which they were uttered. It was not he that
spoke, but the House of Commons, thin-ugh the humble
individual who then addressed them. What would be the
effect of truncating his Hon. Friend's proposition by
moving the consideration of the previous question? He
regretted much that the Noble Lord at the head of Fo-
reign Affairs had lost the present opportunity of sanc-
tioning by his adoption a proposition which tended, not
only to the liberty of mankind, but of national civilize.-
tion. He lamented that the Noble Lord did not grasp
that opportunity of reading a lesson to the nations of
Europe which in their present position they so much
stood in need of. At the present moment. when the
name of England, he believed, had been partly employed
as a means to sanction such proceedings as were a dis-
grace to humanity—he allude dto the attack made by the
French Government on the people of Rome—he regretted
that the Noble Lord had not availed himself of the op-
portunity, not only to repudiate all connexion or assent
in those proceedings, and to withdraw the British name
from all participation in them, but to raise up the
standard of civilization and peace, arid to ask foreign na-
tions it they were willing to join England in appealing,
where disputes arose, to common sense and reason, in-
stead of to war and the sword.
Mr. W. MILES approved of the course taken by the
Noble Lord at the head of Foreign Affairs in meeting
the proposition before the House by moving the previous
question. The previous question in this case meant
that the Noble Lord and those who supported him agreed
in the fundamental principle of the resolution. The
Hon. Member for Sheffield had told them that the
present period was fit and opportune f ir determining the
question submitted by the lion. Member for the West
Riding, but he did not think the Lion. Gentleman had
succeeded in establishing that point. He told them that
the state ce Europe was one of convulsion, ma-ked les•
by tumult than striking injustice. This surely was not
the peculiar moment at which the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs could adopt as a practical measure a proposal of
general arbitration to the Powers of Europe. Could
they name any nation with whom there was the slightest
chance of success of entering into such an arbitration.
If they proposed it to the French Government, consider •
ing the condition of the French Republic, the Noble
Lord at the heal of Foreign Affairs could scarcely ex-
pect a favourable answer. Was it Zo such a Govern-
ment as that of Russia that they could hope to enter
into a negotiation of this nature? He believed it could
not be done with advantage to this country or to the
cause of mankind; and, therefore, though he agreed in
the principle of the motion, he should support the amend-
ment of the Noble Lord.

Mr. HUME thought the course adopted by the Hon.
Gentleman who last addressed the House exceedingly
strange. He approved of the conduct of the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, ho approved of the prin•
ciple of the motion of the Hon. Member, and yet he said
he would vote against it.
Mr. M. MILES—I intend to support the motion for
considering the previous question.
Mr. HUME—The Hon. Gentleman should know,
after what had fallen from the don. Member opposite,
that moving the previous question was an admission of
the principle of the motion of his Hon. Friend. The
Noble Lard at the head of Foreign Affairs admitted
fully and fairly that he concurred in the principle of the
motion, but that he doubted the practicability of carry-
ing It out. That was the entire difference. How much
more good would be effected if the proposition had the
assent of the Noble Lord and of the Government, and if
the in, tion were carried unanimously. He was much
pleased that the debate had taken place, because the
Noble Lord made a speech which he heard with great
satisfaction, and made a declaration which he hoped
Knight be carried to every part of the habitable globe,
for it would have the effect of removing an impression
that now existed unfavourable to his Lordship, namely,
that instead of promoting feelings of friendship, and pre-
venting war between differtmt states, he had fostered
discord and disunion. He was quite surprised that the

Node Lord could for a moment hesitate adopting and

giving force to a principle which he declared himself
to have talcr-n such pride in promoting. He regretted
!hat the Government had taken the open step of op-

posing the motion, for he held that it would be for the
interest of England if they gsve their sanction to the
adoption, as well as to the principle, of the plan sug-
gested. What the country wanted was, that war should
be avoided by every means.—(Hear.) Thts was the very

,
.. _
country which, from its position, ought to set the example
~f lessening the incentives to war; and he therefore put
it to the House whether they were not in a position to
do so at the present time. In consequence of the Otaheite
affair the whole fortifications around the coast were

strengthened, and a large amount of money was carelessly
spent; while, had the system of his Hon. Friend pre-
vailed, they would have been saved all that expense.
Again, in regard to the dispute with America as to the
boundary line, they were put to an expense of one mil
lion sterling, in oreer to get up their naval force, in case
of a war. That dispute was, in the end, settled by com-
missioners; and, had that means of settlement been at.
first adopted, that expense would have also been saved.
He supprted that expenditure, because he thought
America meant to bully them; and he also supported in
that House a vita of thanks to Lord Ashburton for the
successtid manner in which he had discharged the duties
of his mission —(Hear, hear.) Thus, the system pro-
posed by his Hon. Friend had been already successful,
and it was with regret that he found her Majesty's Go
vernment opposing. By war they had gained nothing
but increased taxation. The war they were engaged in
with America had entailed upon them upwards of 60
millions to their debt, while the French war had greatly
added to that sum, and from the effects of these a system
of the most grinding taxation had been given rise to. By
a system of proper arbitration that load of debt mighs
have been prevented from being entailed on them, and
he now regretted that after the admission of the Noble
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that he agreed in the
principle embodied in the motion, he should have felt it
his duty to vote against it.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had hoped that the
speech of his Noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs, was so clear and distinct that it could lead to no
tnisconcep!ion, but he found that those who had followed
his Noble Friend, instead of answering his arguments,
had totally misconceived the meaning of the objections
he urged against the motion. His Ria,ht Honourable
Friend the Member for Manchester had considered it
necessary to state his opinion with respect to the evils of
war, and the desolation and expense it created. With
respect to these there was no difference of opiaion.—
(Hear.) There was no party in that House who would
stand up and say that war was productive of good, or
that it ought to be courted; there was no party who ad-
vocated it as a system; and, therefore, the greater por.
don of the speech of his Right Hon. Friend was not ap-
plicable to the present case. But his Right Hon. Friend
said the question was that they should settle their dis-
putes by arbitration or negotiation, but that was not the
question either, for the motion of the Hon. Member for
the West Riding had only reference to arbitration.
But in respect to the question, so far as it related
to the avoiding of war, he thought he was justified
in saying that the history of the present generation
showed that negotiations had been employed in all pos-
sible cases for the avoidance of war, and that in most
cases it had succeeded. He did not know if it was alto
Ma
wemithbeirnsfotirgaMtiindg-
oFnr.iemnedmthheer
dg el
et sheexr had iagdh charged abrugte dh ss olimoenfl.
the war of 1793. e
oNt atyh,emheobfeilnieavtiegdathmegevtehnewAenmt
esroiota'anr
as to accuse so
w ar— (Loud laughter)—but
regard—b hetit t
ot htohueg
presentht that
generation
enermaitgiohnt
safely affirm that,
w
bwlhaome in had scats
ithaptrtohmeoytiwnegr_ i
were free
evilsof
from
contact,
war, Whheanvntfige in ht hor
byecetonnasdfii3riewaeurdsde, n
the various and mportant
questions
a innd w
beenhi c e
ng
h thisag
engaged
uwnittrhy
discussing—the dispute as to the Vixen withillouessdia—afftahier
Oregon boundary—the Carolitie and the
A
tande beengreat
with the United States—the conduct of the French at
Otaheite—the Syrian question—and many others, all of
hich had been questions of great peril in themselves,
some of them exciting to a considerable degree the feel-
ings of a great people, and yet that under the different
Governments which had succeeded each other, these had
been settled in such a manner as to prevent war and
blood,hed, and friendly relations established between
those powers—(Hear, hear)—this he thought was one
of the best arguments which could be used in favour
of the system heretofore pursued, as well as a sure indi-
cation of the desire of those at the head of affairs to pre-
serve peace.—(Hear, hear.) That then was a proof
that they did 119$ require any pressing with regard to