The Sun.
London, England, 1813-04-03 00:00:00

years before, that lie should ixe let alone; What
was said by the Bight Hon. Gentleman was just
this,—" I find 45 years mentioned in the Act, there-
fore I f►nd tifys.elf at libertyto take 7,000,000 from
the'Sioklogitoud.- But this was not even done at
a time when Stock-holders ha% e had any -bene-
fit from the Sinking Vund,; on the contrary, it was
done at a time when they not only had no bene-
fit, but when they actually suffered a loss. lie
then moved,

" That a Select .Connuittee should be 'appointed, to take
ipto.its consideration the Acts vith, axd, and 4.2,1 of
!wised tOr the purpose of more effectooll". redeeming tha Na-
tional Debt t and that it should report vrh►ethcr the proposed
plan Was Just as it regarded the holderS of sliare, in thepnb-
tic funds; and also hn►r far mune'y set apurtfor the redethp-
tion of the National Debt, can be at the disposal of Parlia-
ment."

..~

The CHANCELLOR of the I,Xcitcougatsald, that
in 1802 the question had tome in its gravest form
before the House, and 14t4Attit One Coniiderable
proportion oldie isationsil th been transfer-
red from onO seenrity4 another. The Rigl:! Ho-
nourable Goal nip who httd submitted the cao-
lion to the House bad dwelt much upon the
fi-
nanciiil transactions at 1802. The improvements,-
:which had been made in thi.t year were suggest-:
ed to Lord Sidmouth by Mr. Pitt, and although a •
different and very Oftensive plan bad at first been
in agitation, a More -limited mut had beep finally
adopted. The question ,before time House was to
decide upon du:construction to be put upon three
Acts of Parliament, and to determine how the
new plan would affect the contractor for the.loan.
It was certainly trae, that in some instances the .
contractors asked whether or not a one per cent.
fund was to be made upon the loan but there
was 110 One instance in which a special provision
to that effect bad been made in the
,contract. Ily
the' A:gt 0f1792, it was provided, that the debt
contracted should, be redeemed with n forty-five
years ; but it was very extriiordinary that in no
Act previous to 1802 was there any thing menti-
oned About accumulation 1)11 compound interest.
The Right Honourable Gentleman then mentiorP.
ed several circtunstances to prove that Mr. Pitt,
in his financial arrangements, had always argued
upon probabilities.' 'Although the Acts of 1792
and 1802 were alterations upon former nen of
Parliament, it heednot been thought necessary to
have any ComMittee to consider the Acts to
.be
altered, previous to their alteration. :There was.
not therefore any precedent for a Committee,
such as that Which the. Right Honourable Gentle,

man had moved for.. The Right Honourahle Gen-
tleman having followed his own, precedent, he
hoped that 'the louse would follow its precedent.
'rue Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded
to readextracts from the Act of 1807, and from
an official paper, ,to show that the Marquis of
Lansdown and Lord Melville had both recognised
the principle of redemption within forty-five years.
The plait which he (Mr. Vansittart) had propos-
ed, provided for much more than the redemption
of the debt within forty-five years, and the Right
Honourable Gentleman had been very unjust when
he said that it provided for no more ; he might
even give all that up without injury to his pion.--
In Lord Latisdown's speech the same principle was
contended for, and no little was it opposed, that
not the smallest allusion was: made to nteaclk of
faith. The Right Honourable', Gentleman (Mr.
Tierney's) argument respecting breach of faith
wits confined to this, .that since 1802 .the public
faith had been for ever' pledged to the period of
redemption at that time limited. The present
Bill, as well as that of 1802, gitaranteefi the ter
demption within forty-five years. It was cinlious
to observe, how differently Gentlemen .spoke,
when they argued on the ground of public faith,
and when they came to the application of their
principles in practice. They seemed to. admit, :as
well as hitntelf, that the Act at 1802 must bein
some measinie alttred. That Act, like all 'tillers,

must depend upon tittles and floating circumstan-
ces. He would abandon his plan, if he thought
it was any thing like, a breach of public:faith.. lie
would not, however, go into, the Conunittee for
the purpose of endeavouring to find doubts on a
matter that had been, before decided. Au lion.
Gernleman near him (Mr. Iluskisson) stated a
plan of 'his own, a part of which was to mak'e
good by war taxes what was drawn from the
Sinking Fund. This would be a breach a faith,
without bringing Hey convenience. This he stat-
ed to shew that even that lion. Gentleman him-
self did not think the Act of 1802 could he
lowed up..' Justice had not been done in speaking
of the plan of 1802. So tar irons a saving in that
year taxes were actually imposed. If arguments
were intended for any pi actical purpose, in this
case they should shew ttutt the country would be
placed in a worse situation by this plan than it
was in by the' Act of 1802. When that Act
passed, it was computed that the, new and old
fund would, in 1825, amount to 15,000,0001, and
the first year in which any adyantoge Was ex
pected from it was in 1825. The Sinking Fund
by his plan, was placed in a mach better situa-

tion. IF the Act Of Igo2 was read with atten.
tion, no doubt would remain that the intention of
the Act was such as Ate contended for. For this
ha bad Mr. Pirt's authority, as also that of Lord
Grenville and the Marquis of Lansdowne. The
Hight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) did not
seem to have entered into the plan. lie in sonic
measure misreprr4ented it. In the Act of 1792,
the word aeetnuttlation was never used. It merely
directed the application of a one per cent. fund,
and in his plan this tund was not diverted from
original purposes. It had also this advantage,
that by means of it the debt would be cancelled
earlier. If the Gentlemen had gone more into
detail, he Wa3 •prepared to follow them. lie cow-
grattaatett the House, that they bad already made
provision for four years war.
Sir JOHN NEWFOAT voted for the Committee,
on the ground that the plan was a breach of Tub..
lie faith.'
Mr. ROSi laid, that he could no* only re-state
arguments that had been before empi,,yed:
was deur, however,- that in 1798, 1799, and
1800, the Sinking. Fund had been before diverted
front its purpose. The only question twit, was:al

to t3ie time. It Was not neceliary tO refer the
111.1,;11VSS to a CotoillitteC, the Howie. itself Was

competent to decide upon it.

wttvAn tag e of

, .
this plata thilt• the a,le!it (would bc paid Moto
gradually, amt within n shorter time.
Mr. BANKS would state within narrow compass
whatinduced hint to vote for the Caaminittee. It
was this 4 that he thought the consequences much
more serious than they were apprehended to be-;
it deserved, therefore, serious consideration.in a
Select Committee. In his opinion there was no-
thing fit law against the 'phut, but still there were
many who entertained serious donbts whether it
could be done without an iofraction of the public
faith. He believed it was impolitic, and could
only be justified by necessity,
Mr. GRANT voted fin the Conunitte, on the
ground of the necessity there existed of support-
ing every appearance of good faith with the
lic. He admitted this to be a question in which
the public were greatly inteQsted. 600 d faith to
the public creditor was indispensably necessary.
This, he contended was not infringed by the new
,plan of Finance. The only fiiir way of exiiiitining
• the plan was to compare it with any other which
had been reeominended, or which might he pro-
posed. This done, he was satisfied the present
measure would be found to efford more: advao-
tages, and to be accompanied fiy fewer inconve-
niences than any other, which in the present eir7
cumstanceS of thecomitry could be adopted.
, IiANKi?.S explaine.
Mr: Busistssost 'could not think the question.
before 'diem was one On which no doubt could
exist, and he shOnld haVe 01. the Chancellor
of the PAchequer himself would not have been of
this opinion, as he .nnist have had some doubts in
1809 on his own mind, when he declared the
Fund could not be touched without injus-
tide to the.public creditor. He was sure the Act
of 1802 had the sanction of Mr. Pitt,---That Act,
coniended, in no way infringed the Act of
1792.—1 t was .said that eompound ititerttst was
,nrit mem Toned in the Act of the ',year 1802 ; on
this' much stress had been laid.—lt was true the
words," compound interest" did not appear in
that Act, but from the provisions it contained,-
some-of which he quoted, it waS past all doubt
that compoinol interest was contemplated when
that 'measure was framed. if any lien. Gentle-
man could be authorised by the House to draw up ;
a statement of what- was meant by' the Act of
1792,, and if the thaneelkir .of the' Pi-chequer
Would put down in writing what he conceived bis
new plan to.be„ then a fair case .might be made
oat, on which a. li•gal debision could be had ; and
if that decision declared the, present measure{ to be
nn infringinant of that Act, he could then only say
he had misconceived it. At present, he thought
it went to violate that Act, and the principle of
the plan once admitted,
_he thought the (lay MS'
not very distant when that principle 'would. be
pushed to its full extent, the measure of the Right
Hon. gentleimin thrown overboard, and the Sink-
ing-Fund (lone.awaY altogether. At present he
would not go into the general policy of the plan,
but he should vote for the •Committee. •
The A'cTORNEY.GENEIIAL rose to give merely a
legal Opinion as to.. the effect of the present mea-
sure on the three Acts of Perliamentwhich had so
often beep referred to,
.Looking ,at the letter,
and at the spirit of those, Acts, be could not feel
any difficrilty, like )his Hon. FrienMwlio, though
hostile to the principle of the 'plan, was obliged
to adMit that it did not violate the law), in ar-
riving at this conclusion, that it did not infringe
He.could not see the smallest violation of
gaud .faith in what was proposed to be done.---
Tiae plan .of 172,6 was to pay off the principal of
the public (kilt in- 45 years. If they did this,
whatever-'debt they 'contracted for the present
time, they acted' fairly by posterity, because it was
to he remembered,, that a gieat debt had been.
thrown oe the preseot geoeration, by their an-
eestins. While they peid•off the interest of the
debtS cOntracted former times, and provided
for the liquidation of those Contracted now, they
did ail posterity had a right to. expect, Adhering
as they did, while they adopted this plan, to the
principle of paying off eatlt'debt contracted within
the yeriod. of forty-five years, they were guilty of
no int:ruction-of the original plan.
Mr. litYsttissoN explained. .
Mr. CANNING rose, not to join in this debate,
but siraply to state why he should vote forthe
Continittee. If the plait were perfectly consistent
'ith good faith, Then lie would ,not diaputethe
policy of 'making the proposed remission of the
public' burdens at the present period. lie doubted
the possibility of this plao being adopted, consist- •
ent with what he thaeght good faith between the
public creditor and the state. He could not go to
the full extent of the view taken of the subject by
his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskigson), 'but he
'thought- the House ought not to adOpt this great
proceeding. without seeltiog information froin a
Committee, and adding one tea that greet body of
Reports which had been laid before the House on
the subject of this law of 'the sinking Fouii.,
He
did not agree with his Hon. Friend, that a legit
opinion was sufficient to Wade them;on this occa-
sion ; and, tt ithout any disrespect to the Attorney •
(lettere}, he must say, his doubts had not been re-
moved by the opinion **filch be (the Attorney Ge-
neral) had delivered, His definition of the law
went to Make, that " expectation" in the public
creditor which hail hitherto been " cOnfidence."
Knowing the anxiety of Mr. Pitt to guard•aga:nst.
the nation being overwhelmed by public debt, tilt
these 'debates, wits not prepared to expect to
see Gentlemen alarmed at the accumulations Of
the' ineana of paying it off, test some fatal morn-
ing they should wake to find themselves, poor de-
luded and defenceless creatures, without a debt to
their backs: The' Right Hon. (lentleman_pro,
ceeded strongly.to urge the advantages and conSo.s
lation whieb might be derived from referring the
subject to a cOminittett, and concluded by obSery •
ing, that though it-might be proper in the present
instance to trench an the Sinking Fund; it must be
allowed this aught not to he done indefinitely,
and therefore it was expedient that the point to:
which the principle might be carried should be
distinctly marked.

Lord LASTLEPP.AC;If appealed to the lioUse
if
ever .8 question like this cautd, with.aity
,regard to
e6itllllno sense, or to that duty which they owed
to theinielvs, la<i l'Outtd.to a. Committee. It the
Right. lion• Gentiqrnan had thought the tables