The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

their real interests in diminishing the number of their
mon for the sake of economy. Time was the greatest
economy in c qnmerce, and they should seek, by making
these ships effective, to accomplish short passages. That
was the true and best economy. It was known that the
Americans had introduced machinery on board their
ships to save labour, which, no doubt, was useful ; but
machinery could not enable them to reef topsails in a gale
of wind. The best thing was to make expert seamen, and
to equip their ships in a way that would enable them to
make quick voyages. He knew it was difficult to esta-
blish strict discipline in these ships, but he thought
that temperance should be established, not only in
the forecastle, but in the cabin. He did not mean ab-
stinence, because spirits could not be dispensed with in
severe weather. The Sunday ought also to be made a
day of rest, and employed in reading, and of all things,
ship owners ought to endeavour to take the men out of
the hands of crimps; and Sailors' Homes should also be
established for their comfort, when they were on shore. It
was not his intention to trespass on their Lordships. He
thought it right to state what measures the Government
ought to introduce. This countiy had obtained the su-
premacy of the sea from men who did not refuse to pay
the price of that supremacy, and they ought not to sell
that importance for a mess of pottage. He dismissed the
Bill with contempt, for the principles upon which it was
based. He dismissed it with disgust, not without appre-
hensions of the consequences that may result from it.
Let the Government do what it might, and let the ship-
owners do what they might, this Bill would impair the
mercantile marine, and thereby endanger the supremacy
of the naval forces of the country.
Earl GRANVILLE said he would not enter into the
question whether votes had been given on this subject
against the conviction of any of their Lordships. He
did believe that such was the case on either side of the
House. He cordially concurred in what had fallen
from the Noble Earl, and he' hoped it would go forth to
the country, and that the shipowners would follow the
advice his Noble Friend had given them. First, with
regard to the remission of the duty on timber, suggested
by the Noble Earl, he bad himself adverted to that sub-
ject on a former occasion; but a Noble Duke sitting near
his Noble Friend said he could not hear of such a thing.
Such a remission would be considered unjust by miners
and other parties who used timber. With regard to a
new registration, he could not see any great objection to
that; and with regard to the Merchant Seamen's Fund,
referred to by the Noble Earl, a measure had been
introduced last session founded on the suggestions
of the Noble Earl, but it met with such opposition
from the shipping interest, that it was found impossible
to carry it in the form it was brought forward. With
regard to the discipline on board merchant ships, it was
the intention of the Government to introduce a measure
upon that subject, which, he hoped, would effect a great
improvement. The benefit of temperance could not be
overrated, and the result of reading and education on
board those ships would be attended with the same
effects as on shore, and would be followed with good
results.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA said this was a measure
of free trade carried on to a reckless extent. They were
now going to abandon the supremacy they had obtained
on the seas, and would bring ruin on the country.
Earl TALBOT said he thought the suggestions of his
Noble Friend (Lord Ellenborough) ought to be adopted
by the Government. He objected to the Bill, as being
carried against the feelings of those most interested in
the shipping of the country. He was anxious to disen-
gage himself from any concurrence in it, and threw the
whole responsibility on the Government.
Lord STANLEY said if he thought any arguments he
could use would induce their Lordships to retrace their
steps, no labour would deter him from urging them on
their consideration, but he must frankly express that he
had no new arguments to bring forward beyond those he
had already urged against the Bill. Nor even if he had,
could he hope to shake the determination of that House
on the third reading, and his arguments would, there-
fore, be necessarily wasted, inasmuch as the votes given
already decided the question, and he should, therefore,
abstain from putting their Lordships to the trouble of
repeating any additional observations, as he could not
possibly anticipate any other result to follow than that
which had hitherto taken place. He should, therefore,
leave to her Majesty's Government the full and entire
responsibility of the fatal consequences to the country
which he feared at no distant period would result from
this measure; he should leave on them the full and ex-
clusive responsibility of introducing it, and should justify
himself by saying not content to the third reading of the
Bill, and place on their Lordships' journals the record of
the grounds on which he thought that this third reading
ought not to take place.
Lord BROUGHAM observed that after the eloquent,
nervous, and spirit-stirring speech of his Noble Friend
near him, who opened the debate, ho did not feel it
necessary to trouble their Lordships with many obser-
vations, and he was glad to find his Noble Friend, the
Noble Earl opposite (Lord Granville) set a right value
on that part of his Noble Friend's speech, which con-
sisted not in commentaries on the Bill, but suggestions
of great importance to its well-working. Ile (Lord
Brougham) hoped the attention of the Government
would be directed to these suggestions, for if such a
course be followed, great good must ultimately arise.
He was bound to say also, that looking round for an ex-
pl illation of the extraordinary phenomena which had
taken place in the passing of the 8,11, though by a narrow
majority, even including those who decided without
hearing the arguments brought forward at all, including
those who were absent from the arguments, still the
majority by which it was carried amounted only to ten.
There was no doubr, a small increase of that majority in
the Committee when those present could alone vote.
Great efforts had been made, on which he commented
on a former occasion; they were honoured by the pre-
sence of diplomatic functionaries, stationed in different
parts of Europe, whose duties he conceived at that
period were more important at their respective Courts
to which they were accredited, and yet they left their
respective posts at those critical emergencies, in order to
hasten over and vote for a question which he hoped
would not affect their foreign policy. All these diplo
matic functionaries coming, including his Noble Friend
from Paris, at a time when no such emergency existed
since 1793, enabled the Government to increase their ma-
jority, by such means they were enabled to pals the
Bill. There was, however, another cause, inde-
pendent of diplomatic interference, and that was the well
known fact, that men whose true patriotism and talent
were above all personal and paltry feelings—men whom
he could not help thinking took a mistaken view of the
facts, as to the present position of public affairs in the
country, gave the measure their support, from a dread of
the consequences which might ensue. They thought the
throwing out the Bill would throw out the Government;
that appeal would be made to the country, by dissolv-
ing the Parliament; that it would lead to a contention of
Free-traders and Protectionists; set class against class,
and that-was a crisis their patriotism would not allow
them to consent to. That was he believed a fair solution
of what bad been done. If he had been of their opinion,
he should be a humble follower in their course, but he
disputed the fact; he believed no such war would take
place, and that if it did it must have been in 1847.—
(Hear, hear.) But he had it from the highest authority
on both sides, that instead of such a war as had been
apprehended, the whole of those different classes, com-
mercial and agricultural, were entirely favourable to
the rejection of the Bill. He lived through many of
those storms in 1808, and latterly in the free-
trade controversy of 1846, when he joined the present
Ministers of the country, then in opposition; and
he must admit he did not expect so soon to see so con-
siderable a reaction as was then taking place among
many
hcimonnlievcetetdhewy ith free
trade.
would
see those persons who were now against corn• law repeal
Noble him
Friends e n questions
near
who
as much repeaters in two years' time as they were in
his left
1846. There was a reaction, no doubt, but it was
against the present Bill, and therefore he had no doubt
whatever that a great mistake was committed by those
who acfed from those motives to which he had already
referred. It was unnecessary to take up any more of
their Lordships' time, and he should therefore content
himself by recording his protest against the measure.
The Marquis of L AINTSDOW NE hardly knew whether
he was justified in offering for their Lordships' consi-
deration even a very few words, because his Noble
Friend near him, although confining himself strictly to
an explanation, gave such a one as he hoped was satis-
factory to the Noble Earl opposite, and because he felt
further, that the observations of those Noble Lords
who had taken a part in the conversation were not of
a nature to require a detailed reply .from him. Ile
(the Marquis of Lansdowne) was not prepared to say,
that though the Noble Earl opposite protested against
the third reading of the Bill, he was justified in in-
viting the House into something like an inquiry into
the motives of the majority of their Lordships who voted;
he was not prepared to admit that it was a convenient,
or a Parliamentary practice, to inquire into the opinions
of their Lordships' House, but to collect those opinions
from their Lordships' votes, and from nothing else. If
they went beyond that, there was no degree of persona-
lity or misrepresentation, there was no interference
ym us
thatt
of have
he
evneno the effect
never
olffi
listened
nt
extra-
with with the sacred and indefeasible right
poso,fhfiHovboosuhtesiirenvgaf,rtoiwhich
would not be brOught into their debates, and therefore
he condemned in the strongest manner the danger of
the
on that occasion. If the Bill be likely to be attended
such a pn rt as cut isceed.
and
nS du chheof
effect,
shouldce ot, u rhs
ee s
knewa
adtwooririvgdst diverting rnmilaii
extraordinaryernt
little
eat the
of argument,
debatesoarproduceg
um eon ft their
aonp di sLi
000nrmsdusohcf a
hi
far
ity sitgohutnbd
3-
Esearwl
ohpopowseitere,
haolwwa s regarded as
of Conservative opinions. They
iansgkendatbuyrethfreginNobthleo
had even
heard it
fit that those who had as good a right as any Members
of that House, namely, the members of the. Right
Reverend • Bench, to take their seats, might for the
future be admitted to their deliberations. In another
quarter surprise is expressed that because Noble Peers
were engaged in diplomacy, they had no right in ex-
pressing an opinion. If they were brought to vote in
that way, instances might be found to show that a simi-
lar course was often pursued by Noble Lords opposite.
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) gave the most distinct
denial to the political motives with which they w ere
charged by the Noble Earl, that they were about to bar..
pate it. What they contended for wahs, found nclst
eihnchoemrt: Bi-
ter the inheritance left them by their ancestor?, or_ Ai issi-
tance was in danger—that althoug _
the wants of the age. and that if they extended com-
merce
the navy; if they allowedcom-
they strengthened
and diminish the
com-
merce to diminish they would weaken
ientiously believed that whatever
mervial principles, it must be extended in proportion to
navy also.
be to increase the commerce and
general effect must
Withregard to sailors,
• ' of the country.
shipping
employed in British or foreign ships, they
they were _ f
.1.
would be always found an un al mg source to the navy
effect the AciTtemeaYlithscave in particular circumstances, its
and army of this country, and produce heroes, such as
those who heretofore, and would hereafter be found de-
morning received an account, in which
the gratifying fact
fending the interests of this country. He had that
was stated, that a ship of 500
very