The Sun.
London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

111°1101).113;auner. stood it meamie-to ;M 7 posed' to s ew in CO-Li-Cetiink tie Memnrelaieiy
• rid °lan anomaly; bet Ween the laws Ofdlifernt I.arts e'pogeti by them. • When ther• could not go.farther
.of the Empire,. He believed the Noble Lord opposite tact concession, they were clot boilnd to 'eterniiy of
(40Wicli) when he Stacwi a different understanding service; they 'might resign. 'Under theseconsidei:a-
on his own part ; but the ,Right -Hon. Baronet, late ; dons' his Majesty may justified in saying his Rai-
Chanceifor'of the Exeheqt.ter- for Irel Hui, had given ni.Sters should not come to him with advice repuk-
sorne sanction to the'other belief, when in opposing pant to his fixed principles and his Coronation Oat h.
• the decay of the proceedings on the BA!, which was Others'alsO thdught'l,Vith .11iS Majesty. He, for one,
urged by some on; the groundoPthe'abence-of Abe- thotkOt that measure would.lead to the destruaion:l
Pish'Menahers, the Hon. Baronet stated that the Bill or the Church'Establishinent of Ireland. , It was,

was already law in Ireland, and already sanCtioned therefore, not to be 'wondered at, if his Majesty
'by the Irish Members. But .there wara still further •i Should have thought his Coronation Oath in this in-
San Lion in the understanding- of his Majesty, as • stance efidaiigeriti.. The Reformation, and the Union
three Members of the late-Cabinet Were under th .with"Scotlarin, had Sanetioned the original Church
same diffiCulty.. (A communication froth the other 7 FAlatilishineilk, whicli'Was adopted Also,for the sake
sine,' across the table, only two.) •He begged.narz.,, of POlitical-Freedorn. He was how surprised to hear
.Annhe ' ihringht The Lord Chancellor, the. Lord E that attachment jo.principles Of such value, Was
~con he
of The Bench, and the Lord looked upon as antiquated, arid belbnging to the dark.;
ilresident .(Sidmouth)-had been dissentient to the ages. 'Air attachment to such darkness could never
exclusion beyond the limits of the Irish Ad ; but ` beluatter of -shame; and he should wish always to
. he found that. the Lord Chancellor had not been preServe it. He censured the determination to con-
.'slimnioried- on the second day, and he thought it not cede to the Catholics`Of Ireland, in consequence of
so right that the Lord who had the particular guar, the disturbancelOf the last year, as an encourageMent
diansiiip of the King's conscience should-have been disttirbance, by holding out concession as the Con-
omitted in the order of summons; and still further he-' s6titience. He alsdCondentnea the' idea of holding
:thought it right that: the dissentient Members of otie'advantages'to the more wealthy Catholic's, in or-
lbe.Couneil, as well as the- consentient, should be der to engage their favourable .influence on their in.--
larnmoned, in order that the King may have the 'feriors: thelOyalty'of these Gcntleme'n was not worth
'benefit Ofhearingfhe opinion of those who confirmed, muchcit it could not be active on the considerations
as well as the opinions of those who invalidated, his-- nbiitenjO)ed...4n answer tolhe chaige urged against
principles with respect to the Church; which were him-, of haying wantonly offered to enat .strong •
kloyin to have been heretofore unaltered' ‘Cirtth•respeet to 'Freland, he stated; that he
established then that it. was a thinhr, unknown-to 'had' offer' only in the contemplation of
!9nie,,of his Majesty's Cabinet -Ministers, and 'to the irg'-bein:grrikTeAiV to adopt such Measures:, In
Minister in Ireland charged to negotiate this parti- 'that ckse hei‘kbuld have S'upported such measures
tular point, that it was intended to ex-wed the xiithoCit any regard to the loss of popularity, in
'Act of 1 ig3, it was not extraordidarY that his, vAiCli, as a Memberof.a- new Opposition, he was in-
ilajesty,- himself should have. been at a loss to un- ' ::ti7blving himself. lie denied that the Catholics could
derstand the extent of the: proposed measure. -Here flow with truth be said to be given'oVee'fb a perse-
be closed the first Point of -the question, content.- cuting spirit. Foi'hitils'ellyhe defied arty one to shew
-established, that his , the, instance in which had shewn a want, of ing himself with haviag Clearly
Majesty had no knowledge in the first instance 'of
tnO,dell!tinn in his power, or 'a want of charity in
-
its being intended to carry tlie triew,Lire so far as lits-'siehgion. He thbnght the proper way to main-
was afterwards proposed. -.As to•.the time when fain tranquillity in Ireland, was to hold not only a
the treasure was introduie4intoitke HOP just SeitiltS pre- and tranquil, but a firm hand towards the Ca-.
sent extent, no. communicAtion ha `been; made to his tholics, and by no means tO-encourage.them to new
Majesty on that subject the'.3d of March. In the hBPes'", by forward
„co4esiions. .Igsread of encou,*:
ititeilinediate time, dispatches had been laid before raging hone from recent disturbances, it should be•
his Majesty, stating, that
.the Irish Catholics would encouraged, if at all, after a long piiriod of loyalty
not be content with the measure then pending, IA itit- `and approved attaChrbent. I-le was convinced that no-
out large additional concessions. .T:ie hope of keeping thingcould be concededw about d,angerto•theprotestant
back. the agitation of the 'general Petition. 'of 'the' Establishment,' and therefore not hold
ire would out
Catholics, could not, in the
qpinion of, the .Lord r any hope to the Catholics. It was highly impolitic
Lieutenant nor of the Lord Chancellor of Trees t, to keep up a fluctuation in Ireland; the Carbolic and
land,. who was more particUlarly concerned, I,e the Protestant Churches _would be- in ,la.wer of a .
accomplished without grantinz, an aci.lition to the ruinous conflict from all concessions which would
Officers' Bill, the situations of Sheriffs and Mein- i go to approximate the situation or the Catholi.:s with
hers of Corporations to the Gentry, and the ‘siva- that of the Protestants; and would be highly injurious.
lions of King's Counsel in the COurts of Law. Then as to the pledge' rejeded :)y—the. late MinisterS,
dispatch' containing this intelagence was certainly and supposed to be-granted by the present, no such
3ent to the King, but without any precise notiftea- pledge, he could assure the House, had been given,
lion of its meaning ;, and here he must say, with- at least no such pledge had been,given by him. Nor
tint any chorgeqf intentipn to circumvent, or over- was it to be stpl6Sed that, becauSe such a pledge
reach the King,!that the want of precision and ex, was required from-the Ministers ho had urged the
Planation that existed w..,s the cause of att. or a great l onnoxious measure, snelk-ia pledge,-or any Pledge,
part, of the difficulties that 'were found' to encumber had been required of tue new aiste.7s.. He, and
this
n
questio. When the doubts arose in Ireland, and those with whom hw
e acted, ere known to be of
the caspittch sent back. with a view to remove those opinion that no measure of the nature to- which the
doubts led to a more clear disclosure of his Majesiy's pledge applied, should be brought forward without

mind„ ivas atteMpfed first to 'modify the proposed
measure to hiS Miijesty'S wish ; but when 'it Was
fc'und that,that Could not be done with the satisfac,
ti("/ hiCh it was at first proposed to give to the
e,
`fthiPlie4 it was thought better by the. advocate's
of the measure" to Withdrit'W' it. • And '.hrere was
aPcth't 'iptin which the kite Ministers over-
-I°°k''
11 , a Material duty indeed.• After they had
r4ed that the irnp(irtance• of -this business would
-4°t admit of its being piistp_oned single • day,
.
had, he `Woilld not say from the motive; but cer=
ttinly with the effeCt, of keeping theirplaces, Made
,tfe °driest sacrifice that had ever bet Ore been known;
,
sacrifice of private feeling to 'public principle.—
'4lis MaTesty'slate Minister -claimed a right, in with-
-u,rawingthenwasiire lately before the House, to state
:tueir sentiments strongly in favour of that measure,
iand of a general system of tlwour towards theCatip-:
-find
rUn NV.,li the strangeSt pit he had ev4khatini
he wished. thOse who" were so itnxionsiteglialtl
-against the case otip CroW n without responSible
'llisters, to cOnsiderin wb4t situation we Would be if
theMiniSters in tilts case :were 'allowed to tOrne do\kn
Pa
-011 state their own case against their Spyereigti—to
lay they were faYourable, and they were right, but
'4!5 Majesty opposed them, and they.wereobliged.to
,concede.--(ii cry of
.“ An, Fq.f" )--Was not that
,the fa6l ; he was stire the Noble Lord would suppor
Ilimself in nothing biit the faa,'and every thing he
acv acid heard confirmed the i nyeSsion
stated; Whit responsibility then had the House
10 look to ? The late Ministeis would have said, if :
the, pledge of,which he would say a few words ny
iliait by, had not, been required, we are strongly for
e measure, but the King is strongly against it,
aad therefore we must give way. In such a si-
tuation what responsibility would Parliament have
jU look to ? His Majesty here contented himself
:111)°h this too, with regretting that his Alinisters
lamenting
opinions slide rent from ' his, and with
;tll4ting- the necessity of introducing discussions
iMproper ; but when the right of stibinitting
L'tlier measures was insisted. on, not to combat a
--. ete loose opinion, but a settled principle of his Ma-
,l'i4stn.tnind during his reign, the House would see
;,`'e mischiefs that must result. He was ready to allow
`that, abstratiedly, Ministers were not to fetter theth-
:,!ves in the right to advise how'the prerogative, to
;v" or withhold consent to 'alis of the
,legislatnre,
a4411(.1 be exercised. But the ease_ in agitation was
ease of bringing forward a great legislative
~,, question against the Crown, with the authority
influence of Ministers of the Crown. It was
1/4.4leulOus to say the Kiyg had the prerogative
at
changing his. Ministers, unless he could change'
them M
upon certain topics and principles. His a
e
iistY mind was made up not to concede further
i P°4 this question, and any further instances could
trucince nothing but agitation and irritation. If
• le minute had been Suffered to pass without' a
11)) dge, an attempt might be afterwards made to
that
forward the measure again, on the ground,
at it..was not contrary to the sanction of the pro-
l'il
_cssion, and acquiesced in. His Majesty, therefore,
required a pledge in writing that he should not be
disturbed with applications which could only pro-
quce distress and irritatio..,, and that pledge at: the
tent moment went only to extend tor a little time
tut Learance which the late Ministers were d. -

the ca)nsnt of the Crown;, and the Parliament, 'and
the People of,his country., Therefore a-pledge was
Superfluous froM then'. He believed no such pledge
had been recittirettirdin any of his cotleagues,' cer=
tainly no such pledge had been ;required from
him. If laelitte Ministers were dismissed on the re-
fit-al to give the pledge, it "was not to be concluded
that the 1-lAii-Mitifsters had given `that-pledge
But the concitiSion 'was. not fair:; and though 'they
,should..ev,en.,bfve, disapprdyed.some of them, he did
riot nevilMintsters were at tiberty to refuse
to come 63 OrficJ ;Tit. the business-of 'the country
was not Lobe' ai lowed to stand still for-want of a Go.
veroment. Neither. as it to be,
supposed that the
new Ministers had adol)ted the pledge supposed to
'Wive bten givon'Wtheit predecessof§PHe hoped th 6
House would be cautious of implying a:censure On
the dismission of the--late-Ministers, and if they did
49; that they would be particular to see that they
not do it without just ground.
Mr. GIUTTI4.4I/ hoped that the sway of Govern-
metif 'over the Irish Catholics would always be mild ;
fel' if not mild if Would not be peraianent. The
Government of Ireland had been guilty of extrava:-
gain excesses of power, and had been compelled
to capitulate with the people ; for capittilatibii-With
'the p.!ople were -the consequences of enormous
-stretches- of po,,ver. To such tluduations mueh
of the 'distresses that had existed in Ireland were
to be attributed. Tile Speech' of the Honourable
`Gentlemanwho had just sat down, may be divided
into two principal points, Ist. as it related' to the
Catholic question it may be divided into two points
---.-first, their condutt towards the Catholics; and, se-
condly, their conduel towardS his Majesty. The be.
netit of the Catholic Bill had been felt by experience
.in the last 14 years. It was not, enough that the
.Mutiny Ad provided a remedy for certain-difficulties
in which Catholic Officers were involved here; there
ought. to be a provision more explicit to.secure them
ag;inSt a penalty of 5001. and the chance of being
:disabled from suing at law, and of bringing a wit,'
ness. Innumerable complaints had been made of
severities to Catholic soldiers, in the exercise of
their religion, since.l79s. They had been prevented
from going to mass, and had been forced to go to
Church. This was, by a double cruelty, to make
the religion of the Catholic soldier his tormentoi„
and your religion the means of his punishment. He
owned-he had not-the-agonising foresight to see the
destrudion of the Protestant Establishment in there.
lief Which was proposedtobegranted in this resped to
the Catholics, nor from having,Catholic Generals on
the Staff. The Bill went to give to the Country the
benefit of the powers of the CatlioliCS, physical as
_well as intellectual ; and in order to do. that it was
proposed to give to the CatholicS, in some degree, a
cornthunity •Of rights, as they had a community of
danger in the fullest extent. All dissention between
the different classes of the subjects ought to be re-
moved; and all the 'united energy and hostility of
all turned against the common enethy. The late ,
Government of Ireland had chewed an honest inten-
tion to execute the laws already. paSsed in favour of
the Catholics, and to give, the benefit of the Con-
stitution as far is could be.
,That the Catholics de-
sired more was, however, inquestionable.—Hence it
was argued by their opponents, that it was the
course of human nature that they should.go oti to