The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-25 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

On the motion of the Marquis 'of LON.DONDEItitY, it was
agreed that the House at its rising do adjoUrn to Thursday next.

THE BOWDITUAES.

Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a Petition from one of the
Female Members of this Family, complaining that she had
been kept twenty-one weeks in prison upon a conviction ob-
tained by perjury ; that.one of the perjured witnesses, Mary.
Whitby, had lately been discharged without punishment; and
that she had reduced herself to penury in attempting to bring
her injurers to justice. The Petitioners.prayed the House to,
take her bard case into consideration, with a view to affording
her such relief as she deserved, and that the House would in-
stitute an inquiry into the conduct of the Judges upon her
trial.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that Mary
Whitby was discharged with • the consent of the Couhsel- for
the prosecution.—The Petition was read and laid on the table.

NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS.

On the motion of the 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the House resolved-itself into a Committee on this
subject:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then said,
that in rising to call the attention of the House to this subject,
he need only briefly recal to their recollection the principles
of the Resolution they had come to on the 3d of, the present
month. By these the House had recognized the Naval and
Military Pensions, granted upon the authority of Parliament,
as a dent to which the good faith ,of the public was pledged,
and were as much bound to discharge, as any other portion of
public debt. The House had also recognized .the principles
of so apportioning this part of the public debt in such a man-
ner, as to relieve the nation from the full weight of it for a
certain number of years, by converting it into a fixed annuity
for a term of. 45 years. After the House had agreed to their
Resolution, it was understood that it was the,intention of Par-
liament that the measure should be conducted on the principle
of open competition, in order that the whole proceeding might
be carried on with the utmost candour. He confessed that for
his own part he never had been very sanguine in 1-:s expecta-
tions that any party, except some of the great public bodies,
would become the contractors for a scheme of such magnitude.
The results proved the accuracy of his notions ; for although
much negotiation and communications of different descriptions
had taken place, part of which was before the public, no ar-
rangement had been concluded of the nature which he had
been authorised by that House to make. He now therefore
came forward, to lay before the House the proposal for another
mode of effecting an object in every respect so desirable under
the present circumstances of the country. The plan he was
about to offer for their approbation and sanction would be
found to possess many advantages over' that, before agreed
upon. It was proposed that the Public should itself become
the contracting party upon the present occasion; and the ad-
vantagei of this would be, that by keeping the payments in
the hands of Government, the party would become respon-
ible to that House and to his Majesty's Treasury, at the
same time that the risk would fall, where in justice it ought
properly 'to fall, viz. upon the public itself.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—The advantage of all profit accruing from this plan
would be the property of the public : and if any loss arose out
of it, it would fall upon the public, as it must have done even
had no such arrangement been made. He hoped therefore,that,
on the point of principle, no objection would be made to this
new mode of providing for those payments. The Hon. Gentle-
man then read his first resolution, subsequently read by the
Chairinan. The duty of making the quarterly payments, and
receiving the dividends of the annuity, would be vested from
the sth April, 1822, in trustees to be named by Parliament,
and the whole would bC• conducted with as small a charge for

SEVINPENCE.

management as possible, an advantage which would result from '
the appointment of trustees. The sum of 2,800,0001. had 14e-en
assumed as the proper amount of annuity,-although perhaps it
might have been smaller if contacted for by any private body,
supposing the rate of interest to be little-more than three and
a half per cent. --. In 'making the contract or the part of the
public, it was not necessary to be
.particular as to the precise
sum, although his Noble Friend (the Marquis .of London--
derry) in stating the general plan to the House, had very pro-
perly ass-limed a particular price. The calculation had been
made upon the 'Three per Cent. Consols being at the'ripposed
price of 821. Buf taking them at 751., the amount would be
2,862,8001. • about 62,0001. more than the Sum proposed in
the originafstatement. With the rate of interest at 4,1 per
cent., at which it was fair to asuirie it,
.with reference to.the
late great financial Operation, the sum would be 2,902;0001.
and perhaps that would have been a fair ratio for any contract
in this case. Ile mentioned this. because they had taken it at
100,0001. less than it would have been in the. event of any
ether arrangement having been • entered into with A. priYate
party. But they did not agree to remit taxes to that
amount. The remainder of the proceedings as to the --con-
duct of the plan was very important. The Annuity would
be placed hi the 'hands of Trustees to be.-nominatat by the
MIL lie should prspese that the Trustees. be the . sort
of• ;persons which bad hitherto been • connected with.,' the -
issue and payments of these pensions. These were—the first
Lord of the Treasury, the Chancellor of -the Exchecluer,Ate
Paymaster-General of the Forces, the Master-General-6f the
Ordnance, the Treasurer of fhe Navy,- and the:Governor and
Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. As the payments
were made through the Bank in some measure, it was highly
desirable that a free and confidential communication, should
subsist. The second and third Resolutions were then read by'
the Right Hon. -Gentleman as follow :

2.," That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the said
Trustees should pay into the Exchequer the several annual
sums hereinafter mentioned, by four equal quarterly instal-
ments, on or before the 15th January, the 15th April, the-15th
July, and the 20th October; the first payment thcreof to be
made on the 20th October 1822.--[Here follows, a series of an-
nually decreasing sums, from 4,:400,0001. in the ensuing year,
to 300,0001. in the year ending 15th July 1867+—And that the
said several sums, or such part thereof as may be necessary,
should be appropriated and applied conformably to the saici
Resolutions.

3. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, That for the
purpose of enabling the said Trustees to make the several pay..
ments hereinbefore mentioned, at the Exchequer, at the ,seve-
ral periods aforesaid, they should be empowered, from time to
time, to sell and, dispose of so much of the said Annuity as may
be necessary for that purpose, but so as that no greater amount,
of Annuity should be sold or disposed of, in any one year, than
would be sufficient to.raise the sums necessary to cotni;lete the
'whole of the payments to ,be made within the year, or to dis-
charge and pay ofl' the Principal and Interest of any Exche-
quer Bilis which: may have been issued on account of such
payments."
It was desirable that the power to issue Exchequer Bilis should
.be given to the Treasury, in order to elude the necessity of-
going into. the market when in an unfavourable -state for the
sale of any part of the annuity. Accordingly this was proposed
in the Fourth Resolution, with the power of resorting to other •
Funds for the payment of the interest upon such advances. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to state the Fourth Re-
solution to the Committee :

" 4. That it is the opinion of this Committee, That for the
purpose of enabling the said Trustees the more readily to pro-
vide the means necessary fo'r Making the said payments, in the
most convenient and economical manner, the Commissioners of
his Majesty's Treasury should be empowered to issue, to the
said Trustees, Exchequer Bills to an amount not exceeding
the sums necessary for completing from time to time the said
payments ; which Exchequer Bills, together with interest
thereupon, should from time to time be discharged arid sa-
tisfied by the said Trustees out of- any monies to arise by
the sale of the said annuities, or out of the dividends thereof;
and that, until such payment, the interest accruingdn sin* Ex-
choquer.Bills may be Aid out of any supplies voted by Par-
liament."

The first half-ytarly- dividend, amounting to 1,400,0001.
would be paid "on the 20th October,' commencing from the sth
April; but the Trustees would have a quarterly payment of
pension to make before- this, and for the 20th of October,
75,0001. over. and alms e the portion: of dividend • received,
waild be required to meet the demand of the pensions. For
the January quarter it Would be necessaryto be prepared with
a million of money, from one source or other. On the sth
Of April . following another half-yearly dividend would be
paid; and 'on the:sth of July again there would be another pay-
ment of a million to make. In the October and April quarters
there would be no difiiculty, but provision must be for
the. payment in January and July. •The 'whole difficulty
would consis...e.--. ;a-pkviding for the firstyears. In three, years the
amount
.of the penskns would .be reduced to 4,500* 'ol..:is
five 3 ears to 4,100,0001. ; and in seven years it Waild be
4,000,0001. 'rite annuity in the hands of thetontbigsianers
aftera certain time Would meet the amount Of the petisiOns,r.t d
'therefore there would be nothing -to'.prJvide when that period
should arrive. Antong the various points Of view IT which
arrangement irrangent was important, :was its relation to the Sink-
ing Fund, inasmuch as it would be, connected with that esta-
blishinent. They were. bound by. 'the resolutions of that
Parliament and the preceding to uphold the principle of a
Sinking Fund, to the amount Of five millions ; and no part of
that would be taken front that fund by this arrangement, 'but
the five millions would . remain in the hands of the Commis.
sioners to the end of the term. This new arrangement provided
its own extinction in 45 years, at the same time that it added
no' permanent charge to the burdens of the country. There
was a fnture charge of half-pay and pension to be irieun.ed,
which would not be provided for by this plan. Although a
suns of 2,200,0001. would be saved to. the public annually,- yet
a proportion of that would be reserved to meet-the growing
charge for half-pay which must arise. It.was difficult.to-esti-
mate the probable amount of this charge,. which must depend
upon the rapidity of promotions and other causes not easily cal-
culated. But it was proposed to reserye 400,0001. a Sipar out
of the saving to the Wylie to be appropriated to this purpose.
Ile considered that in less than eleven years the-Sin.kiag Fund
would have arrived at that which was -proposed to. be its maxi-
mum at compound interest, viz, to the proportion of one per
cent. of the whole debt. He proposed,-therefore, that 400,0001.
should be added annually to the Sinking Fund, to a,ctumulate
at compound interest till it was .wanted to meet the growing
charge, as he had stated, for half-pay. It was plain, therefore,
that this plan must, in some way or another, operate in the re-
duction of unfunded debt. He had stated that there would be
a saving of 2,200,0001. by this arrangement, and he proposed
to give 1,800,0010. to the public ' in the shape of remission of
taies.—(Hear, hear !)—The remaining 400,0001. would' be ap-
propriated as he had before stated. It might, perhaps, be con-
sidered'as premature for him to go. into a statement of he taxes
he should propose to diminish. Spch a course might y.-ear the
semblance of presumption, in assuming the sanction of the
House to the plan he was then only laying before them. But,
as he wis.d9drous,of bringing the whole plan ofhis Majesty's
Government under the view of the House, and knewhow inte-
resting this branch of it was to persons out of doors and to
Honourable Members who felt with them, he wind take the
liberty of proceeding to that part of his subject without re-
serfe.--(Hear !)—He had selected such taxes for reduction
as appeared to him most likely to, meet the feelings of the
country, and, what was more, afford substantial relief at the
same time. lie believed there was but little difference of opi.
nion either in the Petitions presented to that House, or in the
sentiments of Hon.. Members, as to its betng desirablethat the
Salt Tax should 'be reduced.—(Hear, hear.)—He had taken the
liberty to object to a motion of the Hen. Member for Ware-
ham (Mr. talcraft), at the beginning of the Session': for the
reduction of this Tax, because he thought the Mode in
which he proposed to effect that reduction would be 'mbar-
rassing and injurious to the. trade in that article,_and also
because it was connected with an attack on the public cre-
ditor, but not from any partiality for the Tax itself. The
amount of duty at present was 15s. on the bushel of salt,
and he should propose to give up 13s, of that, leaving a duty
of 2s. a bushel, which he intended should be equalized through-
out the United Kingdom, including Ireland.—(Hear.)—ln
doing this, hoWever, it was necessary to consider the interests
of the trade ; and it was obvious that the remission of 13s.
would be ruinous to the dealers in the article,
.and all' traders,
whose commodities bore a portion of it, if it were not removed
to a certain limited period. Although, therefore, it was his
intention to move the Resolution directly, he did not contens-
plete the reduction of this duty before the sth' January next.
The stock now in hand_would by that time be disposed of,
and by an arrangement with the Excise all further. 011c:dais •
might. be obviated. Though the public would. WO-, thty
d
wouldways have this benefit in view, and meanithite the

traders would have Time to adjust their interests. With re-
gard to Scotland, it was his intention to reduce the duty in that ,
country from 6s. to 2s. in_orslg. that there might be a free trade
of the article throngheesOk"-ipteee—r(Hear.)—He should
?deo propose that alroitemptitiniAnd ailZiivances uncut soli,be
--pitealeid, except ireseis es :tir .0130-ttioli*Ore)k94otV.TOr
o.e _ of expiortakilon•lie 'should piopoie that salt ph al-
•
towc 'to go ditty fteee for *Other purpose. $y
ifing theotuty with rnk Irish,. Much fraud Would be prevented:
liritish salt exported 'to leehnit mild go duty tree; and the
trtle of every put of the United Kingdom FOulde, be free attel-
eksfettered.—(llear, hear 9-713 y _this
.iiistatigement, therefore;
it. was plain tiiit the fisfeerieSiwoletd4regtly benefit. For slie
Triitection of the British salt-intilter it would be -necessary'to
put a duty of 2s. 3d. on foreign. salt for the fisheries. The
amount of reduction of taxation accruing from this would be
1.300,0001. leaving a duty of 200,0001. in the aggregate to be
ivied on that article. The ditty would ;continue to be col-
lected by the Eicise, but, once paid, it would be free to go
f- rongh all the internal parts of the kingdom.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked what were the Right 'Hon.
Gentleman's intentions with regard to foreign salt in Ireland?
The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER said there
would be no alteration observed towards Ireland. The next
article to be affected was on the other side of the Channel, and,!
be confessed he was the more disposed to concede something to
Ireland, as the repeal of the Salt Duty in this country would
be rather prejudicial than otherwise to that eountry. The
high rate of duty in this country was an advantage to Ireland,
bat he was sure that generous people would not wish to pos-
sess an advantage to the detriment of their fellow subjects, and
therefore it was that he desired that this measure, should be
connected with some contemporaneous and accompanying one
peculiarly applicable to freland.—(Hear !)—The _House knew
that there was nothing in which, the feelings of Ireland were
more unanimous than in desiring the repeal of the Window
Tax—and it was his intention to propose a complete repeal of
that duty from the sth"Julynext.--(Hear, hear addition
eo that, he should also propose to take off the Hearth Duty—an
impost that had been removed in this. Country since the time
of William the Third, as a tax improper in its nature.—(Hear,
ilea; 1)--The amount of the Window and Hearth-duty remitted
would hardly exceed 250,0001. The next article was one on
which there Was a considerable feeling in the public, but one on
which it was necessary to have some little explanation—he
alluded to the duty on leather.—illear, hear !)—He did not,
however, see in the reduction of this tax all that benefit which
other Gentlemen anticipated: He meant to propose, ibere
fore, that the duty of the year 1812 be given up, and then,
thiit article would lie on the same footing as to tax as it was
-from the time of Queen Anne to the year 1812. But he must
- warn the House' that unless it watched in this case, the con-
-saltier wohld be in danger of being deprived of his just benefit.
The House must be as wary in this instance as it was with reel
. geld to the' rewers not long back, and the remission of duty
shoUld not take pliice till-they had a fair experimental assur-
ance of fair dealing.—( Hear, hear!)—He said this, because he
thought the reduction in the Trice of leather since the peace
did not bear a fair proportion to the reduction in other articles.
But, if ateoinpanied with a banafideieduction, it would prove
of great benefit to the inferior classes, who paid their full'
share towards the consumption. of this commodity.—(Hear,
hear !)—The amount of this reduction would be 300,0001. The
amount of the whole revenue from the tax on leather was
600;0001., and thils one-half would be given up.e•-(Hear, hear !)
He hd got so far in the work of remission ; but he had great
satisfaction in saying that he was not yet at the end of his
Budget.--(Hear ! and a laugh.) —He had another reduction to
propose, which he thought was equally desirable. -They had
all heard on the subject of a Bill relative to the Navigation
Lawi, that notwithstanding the general benefit to commerce,
front the liberal principles-of' trade arising from the relaxation
of those laws, there was one important interest which did not
'participate in that benefit, but on the contrary languished in
depreVsion. He alluded to the shipping interest; and he
-thought that any alleviation of 'the burdens upon that interest
woula•shew a most grateful protecting spirit on the part of the
~llouse4 at the same time that it assisted one of the most im-
portant branthes of the commercial interest of the country.—,
He proposed, therefore, that the tonnage duty granted, during
the war should be discontinued. This was in amount 100,0001
which; added to 1,850,0001., the amount of the remission of
taxation on the other articles before specified; would be in all
_,1,950,6001.L(Hear, hear !)—This was more than • was war-
rantld by the anticipated saving of 1;800,0001. clear of the
-400;0001. to be reserved from the whole 2,200,0001. But he
,expeeted that the remission of the salt tax might operate an in-
,erea'sb-in the revenue from increased consumption to the extra
amount.. He certainly hoped that the remission of two mil-
lions of taxes would not produce an ultimate loss to the public.
—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He hoped that he had thus, without
'entering into any very minute and particular calculation, suffi-
•ciently explained the principles of the mode of management
so aset6 be fully understood by the House. This way of
, accomplishing the wishes of the House was better than the
-other; and the House ought not to sacrifice an advantage because
-it could not be obtained through the means originally contem-
plated. It rather became it to trylome other arrangement, if
ie found that impracticable. He was decidedly of opinion that
• -the arrangements he had stated to the Hattie were capable of
'all the benefits he had in view, and were likely to be attended
with:as little disadvantage as was inseparable from a plan of
.this nature. He therefore hoped that the Committee would
.allow him to move his first Resolution. The Right 'Hon.
Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering from all PUNS of
:the house. The following was then put from the Chair:—
" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that for the pur.-
,Tose . of apportioning, -conformably to the Resolutions of this
kiou4e of the 3d day of this instant month of May, the burden
occasioned by the Military and Naval Pensions, it is expe-
dient that an equal annual Annuity of 2,800,0001., terminable
at the end of forty-five years, should from the sth day of
Aprirelß22, be vested in trustees to be named by Paffrainente
and that the said Annuity should be charged upon the Con-
solidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Ireland."

CALCRAFT congratulated the House upon the propo-
sitions which they had just heard from the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite. He confessed that he must have totally
misunderstood the Right Honourable Gentleman in the begin-
. ning of Session, when he fancied he heard him say that a
.repeal of taxation would not only be no remedy for the incon-
veniences under which the country laboured, but that it would
actually aggravate the evil. It was scarcely possible that such
a declaration could ever 'have been made by the Right Hon.
Gentleman, who had this night risen in his place to move a re-
duction of taxes to the extent of two millions. Whether he
we: e mistaken or not, however, he must say, that what had.pass-
ed that 'evening was an encouragement to the House of Commons
to persevere in their opposition to Ministers, and to continue
• that course which their duty to the country demanded. By so
doing, he was persuaded that they Would obtain on other ocea-
slurs similar concessions to those which their manliness and
,perseverance had succeeded in obtaining to-night. The Right
.J-fon. Gentleman had gone further in his reduction of the Salt
• tax than he (Mn C.) had ventured to propose,, under the cir-
cumstances of the present Session. He ( Mr.C. ) had proposedonly
.a remission of ss. this Session, And ss. in the two succeeding
. Sessions, until the whole tax was got rid of. But the Right
lion. Gentleman had gone further, and granted at once a re-
..mission of 13s. out of 15s. This was a measure which was cer-
tainly calculated to give universal satisfaction. His (Mr. C's)
iproposition went to the total extinction of the tax, andle did
despair of Seeingthe Right Hon. Gentleman adopt this measure
::in the present or ensuing Session. Though lie was extremely de.
sirous to 'see the whole machinery of this tax swept away, he
wet; content to take what was conceded, and he should not press
.for any-further remission in the present Session. Some allusion
had been made to the comparative bearing of this Tax on the
people of 'lreland ; but he could not help thinking that what:
ever tended to the relief of one country must conduce to the ad.:
van tageof the other. With regard to the duty_ on foreign Salt,
which was only used in one particular part' of the fisheries, he
really thought the Right Honourable Gentleman ought to in,
crease it. As to the other part of the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman's plan, he confessed himself unable to understand the
.mode of carrying it into execution. When the Noble Lord first
opened his proposition to.the House, he believed there was not
a person who heard .him who could have supposed that a Mi-
nister could,have gone so' far without having the means of
Qxe-
curing his plan. 21,11. this embarrassment would be 'avoided by
adopting the plan proposed on his (111i.-C.'s) side of the House,
namely, that of taking the money at once from- the inking
Fund. The whole thing might bedone at one stroke of the
pen, by striking.out the word Consolidated," in the OM Re-
solution, and substituting" Sinking Fund." This would be a
straight forward, clear, intelligible course. How could the
Right Hon. Gentleman, hemould ask, go into the market-to
borrow money every year, 'without divesting the capital which
would otherwise go into the funds'? His Majesty's Ministers
had talked so much, . however, of their darling Sinking Fund,
that they had become enamoured of their. idol, or if not ena-
moured, they had said so much irLits praise that-they were nn-
willing to recede. After all,. if he.understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman, he had himself declared his intention of coming in
a few years to the Sinking Fundy for when it reached a certain
amount, it was to bear, a certain proprotion of this debt. He
would say no more on this subject at present, as lie confessed he
had not a clear conception of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man's plan, and-he almost doubted whether the Right Ho-;•
nourable Gentleman-had a clear' conceition of it himself. As
far as he (Mr. Mr. C.) was concerned, he begged to repeat that
"he should not press for any further remission the present Ses-
sion. If he found the reduced tax worked well, he should
satisfied, but if the duty of 2s. a WSW appeared to press heard
upon the fisheries, he.trusted the puse would be ready to af-:
.ford them relief.

~''}ie,llfargniir of LQ,ISTDONDE RR sahl; I thai after, the

manner in whisk the Hon. Member for Wareham (Mr. Cal.
craft) had expressed himself on this occasion, it would
.be un-
pardonable:la, hinYlP.tmblee whiCh might
mtettupt the *meaty Atf, the
.glyetiinAte-- (Lord L.) • had.not
for along dine passed so satisfattOry, a„mernent, ,nor did he
everidnefriber tahaye seen thecbontenances of Ifon. Gentle-
men opposite so; creditably lightetinp—AA laugh!)— 'he Hon.
Gentleman opposite had doneonch ttmpke justice to the plan.
'of hii Right fion.Triemi,, and he had spoken of it in suck a
spirieof eatidourVand•CVerf kittlnesi;'• that he Lord' L.) should
be doing. violence- :te his or feilings.if he suffered himself to
let fall any.expressiOn:which might throw a; cloud over, this
happy dawn-(A langh.)--There was one maxim of the lion.
Gentleman, however, froth Which. inconvenient consequences
might be drawn, if it,Were'suffere.titopass wholly unnoticed.—
As the Hon., Gent. had, called upart.the House to observe what
advantages were derivable from opposing' 11linisters, he (Lord
L.) would remind the Hon. Gentleman of the advantages of
supporting Alinisteton the basis of public credit. Ile agreed
with the Honourable Member, that if the fisheries should be
embarrassed Or injured by this duty, 'it would be in-
cumbent upon the House to watch over their prosperity, and
consider the particular bearing of the tax upon their interests.
The Honourable 'Member had said that the Government had
now for the first time discovered that relief for the coun-
try was to-be derived from the remission of taxes ; but surely
his Majesty's Ministers had contended as loudly as the Hon.
Member himself, that the House could not be too eager to re-
peal taxes, provided they did it upon a principle. He (Lord
L.) would not, however, be a party to so gross a delusion as to
hold out, that even this large reduction of two millions, in addi-
tion to the reduction of a million and a half in the Malt Duty,
which followed close on the repeal of the Agricultural Horse
Tax, would be likely to bear upon the main pressure of the
distress.. The relief was in fact afforded to consumers, - who
were not the class of the community suffering under the greatest
degree of distress. The Hon. Member had said, that if the
words " Sinking Fund". *fre substituted for " Consolidated
Fund," all difficulties would be at once removed, and their har-
mony would he at its ennui- When he (Lord L.) originally,
submitted his plan to the;liouier he acted upon a presumption
which had since been realised, that it-might be made available
to the public interests. 'When he, propos.ed,the principle of a
contract,- lie had gOod reason to beli€ve„. front certain commu-
nications which had been made to his Right Honourable Friend
(Mr. Vansittart), that there were persons disposed to become
contractors for the plan. It was not wonderful, however, that
persons, looking-to the probable contingencies which might
arise during so extended a period as_forty-five years, should
entertain doubts, •whether, with a view to the interests of the
parties for whom they were trustees, it would be safe or
prudent to embark in such a -.transaction. According to
the new arrangement, the public would be their own
contractors; and make the bargain for the service of the
year. He,protested against:the observation of' the Honourable
Gentleman, thaethe. Sinking Fund would be in any manner
interfered with. honourable Ge.ntlemen opposite had been
a little disposed, from the ground which 'they once occupied,
and it
,was natural enough, that they should endeavour,
to get one foot back into their old position. There would
still be a SinkinT: Fund, Consisting of a clear .surplus of five
millions over and above the expenditure of the country, ap-
plicable to the -reduction of the debt according to the principles'
of compound inte;est; but when. that fund reached a certain limit,
its progress would be in some measure arrested by the remission
of the taxes now applicable to it increase. There could be no
objection to producing, certain operations on the market during
the progress of the Sinking Fund., In time of war the operation
of the Sinking 'Fund was of course suspended, from the necessity
of making annual loans, and even in it period of peace. there could
be no objection to operating-on the market for the sake of public
convenience. The fund of five millions for covering the dead
charge was not to be confounded with the Sinking Fund; for if
these two funds were married together, they would make 10
millions instead of five. The short statement of the transaction
was this—that whereas by the ordinary operations of nature,
taking each successive year, the surplus of the descending scale
would in 45 years amount to five millions,. it was foundynore
convenient, instead of taking the' surplus in each su'essive
year, to calculate the average of the whole, and take aiyuniform
surplus for every year. He wcruld,not add another word, lest
it should disturb the harmony of the evening-,-(A laugh)—and
with respect to past controversies, he wished, at least for this
night, to forget them—(Hear !) '
Sir J. NEWPORT did not mean td disturb the harmony to
which the Noble Lord had so frequently alluded ; and there-
fore he would say nothing about the eirects which might be
produced by marrying those two funds. -Whether harmony
would be the offspring of such a union he could not say, but it
appeared to him that, as they now stood, one of them was
likely to produce a•loan every. year.—(Hear !)—With respect
to the Window Tax, he was sincerely happy at its repeal • and
he agreed most perfectly in the observation of his Hon. irierid
(Mr. Calcraft), that no jealousy ought to exist as to the repeal
of particular taxes; because, it such repeal operated benefi-
.ekdly for one quarter of the empire, it certainly must, to a cer-
tain extent, advance the general interest.., He was also-happy.
that' he Hearth Tax was given up, not on account of the mag,
nitude of the Tax, but because it was extremely disagreeable
to the feelings of the people, who viewed it as a badge of sla-
very. The financial plait of the Right Hon. Gentleman ap-
peared to him more desirable in its present shape than if it had
been effected by means of a. body of contractors. No body of
men co,uld be expected to take such a contract, without, the
probability of reaping considerable advantage ; and that ad-
vantage must hare come out of the public purse.
• Sir R. SHAW expressed the, great pleasure he felt at the
repeal of the Irish Window Tax. As many gentlemen who
had compounded for that Tax had paid its amount for the
present year, he wished to know whether any remission would
be made to those thus situated ?

'The CHANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER answered,
that any payment which had been made beyond the sth of July
net would be remitted.

General GASCOYNE. adverted to the. present state of the
shipping interest, and said he experienced great pleasure at
finding that the. Right Honourable ,Gentleman had not ne-
glected it: The Right Honourable. Gentleman deserved the
gratitude of the country, for :the equal manner in which he
had distributed relief to different classes and descriptions of
individuals.

Mr.. HUME said, that no man in that House was more
pleased at the remission of two millions of taxes than himself;
but he was not at all disposed to adopt,the tone of Honourable
Members in returning, thanks to the, Ministers of the Crown,
as if it was a favour conferred by- them,. instead of a duty de-
manded from them in the present state of the country. He
could not but regret, therefore, that, so much praise had been
bestowed upon them merely for discharging a duty, which
they had been called upon week after week in that House
to perform.. There was no class of the community which
required , more to be relieved from the pressure of taxation
than the. Shipping - Interest.' The remission of part of
the tax on Leather was undoubtedly calculated Ad meet the
wishes of the public. He could not agree that the manner in
which the Salt Tax had been remitted was the most beneficial
that might. have been adopted. If any portion of the tax
were retained, the whole system of collection and manage-
ment would be continued with it. He held in his hand a
Return, by which it appeared that the number of officers
engaged in the collection of the Salt Duties in England
amounted to 26 5 , and that the amount Of their -salaries was.
26.5001., besides contingent expenses,-.makinga total of 32,0001.
and, including Scotland, 36;0001. If only one half. of -this
establishment were kept up, the expence of collecting 200,0001.
would amount to no less than 20,0001. Would. it not have been
much better therefore if the whole of this Tax had been taken
off, and the whole expence of this department consequently saved-
to the country? With , regard to the fisheries, the...system
would be much simplified by reducing the bounty from 3s. 6d.
to Is. Bd. or 25., instead of charging-, the 2s.' duty, and then
giving. back 4s. in the shape -of -bounty.-L,Though it was
of within the walls of that-House that this measure did
not interfere with the Sinking, Fimd, there was no person out
of doors weak enough to believe it. If the , wants .of the
country required relaxation,' why not break through the Hese-
Jution for the purpose of adopting a course which would be in all
respects more. economical ? Before he sat down it was hisinten-
tion to prdpose an Amendme4 to this effect, that the expence of
new commissioners,aliti other hew appointment ',might besaved,
and the delusion of not interfering with the Sinking Fund, when
it was manifest to every one that they were interfering, got rid
of at the same moment. If the Right Hon. Gentleman was
still so delighted with complexity, and with his favourite
ope-
ration of buying and selling at the same time, the plan which it
was his (Mr. H.'s) object to supersede would answer these pur-
poses ; but he trusted that the Committee would see the pro-
priety of adopting the Amendment, and so dispensing with the
cumbrous machinery of the other plan. The lion. Gent. con-
• eluded by moving an Amendment to the first Resolution, that
all the words after the word " That" should be, omitted, for the
purpose of inserting the followirg words :—" That the bal-
ance between 2,800,0001., and the several supis set forth in the
annexed Schedule should for th'e first 15 years be takenannually
from the CommisSioners for Managing the Reduction of the
National Debt, and that the balance between 2,800,0001. and
the annexed Schedule aforesaid should, from the 16th year, be
repaid annually to the, said Commissioners."

Marquis LONDONDERRY in explanation said, there were
five millions going to the Sinking Fund, and five millions to
the dead expense, thereby making a SUM of ten millions.
Mr. CURIVEN approved. highly :of the selection made by
Ministers of the taxes for remission, and thotight that taking
off the Salt Tax would have a more beneficial, effect than could
easily he anticipated. He wishid, however, that the whole duty
on•rock salt should be taken off, and hoped that the Right Hon.
Qentleman would grant that boo 4 to the agriculturists. - That
•

being done, he had no doubt that what had pass.d in the House
that night would afford great satitfaetion to, the country:'
Mr. DAVENPORT congratulated the House and the coun-
try on the remission of the Salt Tax, but wished that,the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, instead if' deferring the commence-
ment of the operation till the stn ofJanuary,,wouldafFord that,
relief to the fanner at the latter end, of the_ summer, when it
would be so necessary to the pnpatatiOn of butter.and Cheese.
Mr. W. SMITH regretted thiethe whole tax was not.re-
mitted, in order to save the expence of collection, and -wished
that the whole of the Leather Tax was rpealed also. With,
respect to the Amendment, though he shod be. sorry to in-
terrupt the good humour, thatlrevailed, he was surprised that
the point should not be given up by Ministers, for nothing
could be more clear to any rational mind than that there could
be no Sinking Fund but what arose from the surplus of revenue
above the expenditure. The best course, therefore, was, to
take from the Sinking Fund without disguise, and in a manner
that would prevent any increase of establishments.
Mr. J. BENETT said, he would rather see the whole.of the
Salt tax taken away,_ and the Leather tax left as it was, "than
both reduced, but still retaining the expence of collection.—
He rejoiced in the reduCtions that were made, buthoped they
would not have a tendency to relax the endeavours of Gentle-
men to push the principle of econotoy still further.
Mr. BRIGHT observed, that the fisheries would not feel
the benefit of the repeal, if it was merely partial, and therefore
would be dissatisfied. Another class of persons who had great
interest in the removal of the whole class, were the ' linen
bleachers of Ireland, and he would submit whether it would
not be right to remove the pressure from the staple .manufac-
ture of the sister kingdom in its present distress. He rejoiced
that the tonnage-duty on the shipping was also removed, as he
had no doubt that it would be of great advantage to the com-
mercial interests.

Mr. C. HUTCHINSON suggested to his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Humej the propriety of withdrawing his Amendment the
bringing up of the Report. He might then discuss the:question
without disturbing the unanimity which prevailed at present
with respect to the remission of the taxes. As he was in the
habit of opposing Ministers upon most occasions himsdlf, he
felt that he was bound in candour upon the present occasion to
give them his unqualified thanks. There were no impositions
so injurious to the people of Ireland as, the Window and Leather
Taxes; for their repeal, therefore, on the part of his country,
he thanked his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear !)—lle
Wished, with regardito the Salt Duties, that the remission went,
to the full length, and that the- country was saved the expence
of the great machinery of the collection. He trusted. the. Right
Hon. Gentleman-44e Chancellor of the Exchequer) would se-
cure that most important branch of Irish trade, the Provision
Trade, from any injury resulting from the repeal of the Salt
Duties.

Mr. RICARDO saw no necessity for delaying the amend-
ment. They might be in good humour with that which was
good in the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and yet do their
duty by noticing- that' which they thought objectionable. He
partook of the general satisfaction of the evening, but at the
same time he could not say he felt all that humble gratitude
which some Hon. Gentlemen expresged. The conduct of the
Government was very judicious, attending as they had done to
the prayer of. the people ; hut because they gave them some of
their own morey again,,he did not see any Just cause .for such
violent gratitude. 14 indeed, they were to give the people,
from some other quarter, a- portion of money which did not
belong to them, he would be as, ready as any one to thank
them, but that would be quite a different case. He appro-
ved of the repeal of the Salt tax ; but he wished the whole
had been given up. 'With proper economy on the part of
Government, he was confident it might hare been spared alto-
gether. Now, with respect to the particular plan to which
their assent vas requirede!it was neither more nor less than
a loan. He could see no 'difference between this and an an-
nual loan. They musenow go into the market with it; and
the advantage or disadvantage of the transaction must be de-
tennined by the terms which they could gain. He would con-
tend that the most economical course they could take would
be at once to go to the Sinking Fund instead of accomplishing
the object ie view by an annual loan. Supposing
,at the end
of forty-five -years, the Chancellor of the Exchequer should
again come down to the House—(A laugh)—or a future Chan-
cellor of the' Exchequer, another five and forty years, would
any body be deceived by such a course of proceeding to view the
transaction as any thing but a loan. This might be done, but
what good could it effect ? He saw no benefit to be obtained in
this way, seeing it was impossible to make something out of
nothing. - When the Right Hon. Gentleman first came down
with his plan, the Hon. Member for the City of London (Mr.
T. 'Wilson) had supported it, as he considered it advantageous
to negotiate a loan for forty-five years at the present high prices,.
which he considered might be endangered by a war or two in
he course of that period. Now that it was come down to a
proposition for an annual loan, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would give his vote to those who favoured a more economical
plan. The Right Hon. Gentleman claimed, in case the market
should fall, to. have the privilege of issuing Exchequer Bills.
This would be to increase the unfunded debt, and he might
eventually be obliged to fund them at-a price Mach more in-
convenient than the present. He considered• the present plan'
as a violation of the principle of the Sinking Fend, at he was of
opinion, with the Hon. Member for Norwich, that the country
possessed nothing that ought to .be called a Sinking Fund but
the excess of its income over its expenditure.
Mr. 're:WILSON did notrequire the calls which had been
made on. him to state his sentiments on the present- acca-
sion. Ile certainly did approve of the plan, when originally
brought forward, considering the high price of the fun'ds to
offer a great advantage, and supposing the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would'not have brought it forward, if he had not
been certain of being enabled to carry it into effect He was
extremely mortified at the result—he gave up his previous
positions, and considered the present plan as neither more nor
less—but perhaps it was less, than an attack on the Sinking
Fund. He was confirmed in the view which he had formerly
'taken of the advantages Of the plan, as originally submitted to
the House, and was sorry to be obliged to say, that taking his
present course to remit two millions in taxes, the Right Hon.
Gentleman gave up so much of the Sinking Fund.
Mr. MABERLY contended, that the scheme of -the Right
Hon. Gentleman was in effect nothing more than making a
loan for the purpose of reducing taxation. For the lasi thirty
years they had no Sinking Fund. According; to the Hon.
Gentleman's own account, lie.had borrowed Exchequer Bills in
order to purchase his five.millions. He thought that, iiestead
of being the guardians of the_ public purse, they had the
'ciders and abettors of the plunders of the public purse. In the
earlier part of the Session,,Ministers had obtained a vote of the
House for the maintenance of a Sinking Fund of five millions,
and as soon as they had accomplished their object, they came
down to rob that Sinking ninth
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that as one of the Members of his
Majesty's Government,. he enjoyed the congratulations which
had been offered that night, and which, he doubted not, would
be echoed throughout the country. The Hon. Gentleman had
stated that the true Sinking Fund was the surplus of therevenue
over the expenditure. In- that opinion he fully concurred, and
he also admitted that there could be no 'diminution of incum-
brance, except the revenue exceeded the public charge. But
would any Gentleman say, that if his Right Hon. Friend called
together a mass of public annuitants, and said to them, " instead
of an annuity for hfe I offer you an annuity for 45 years," would
that. be an infringement upon the principles of the Sinking'
Fund ? The present plan was this. His Right Hon. Friend
'assumed that, supposing the annuities would all be extinct at
the expiration of 45 years, and supposing that the expences of
the State would only be such as they were in ordinary times,
then the amount. of the debt charged would not exceed
2,200,0001. If he- was justified in that assumption, then he,
wax also justified in saying, " I call upon you not to bind pos-
terity to:a burthen which this generation will not bear itself,
but to take an annuity Of ~,200,0001., being the sum which the
-country would prospectively be called on to contribute." Re-
-specting the observation of the' Honotrrible Member for .11Ioh-
trosa; as to the expence likely to be incurred in the execution
. of. thisplan, he (Mr. IL) trusted that it would be effected
'without any expence at all. .I.le would also remark, on the
Observation of the 11On. Member for the City of London, that
he could not understand why that Hon. Member should
Satter himself that if his Right
.Hon. Friend found persons to
take the loan for forty-five years, they would be disposed to
take it under the consideration lie had • mentioned. The con-
tractor 'for a loan might be mistaken; as was sometimes the case,
and he loses by the bargain ; but it was not likely that they
would 'take it with a clear prospect of their own ruin before
them. He thought that the plan was no infringement of the
.principles of' the Sinking- Fund. He would add one word on
the.subject of the Salt Tax. It was the custom in that House
to represent this country as one which had suffered taxation on
every necessary and every convenience of life. Now he be-
lieved that in every country-in... Europe a tax was imposed on
salt. He thought that the moderate duty which now remained
might be endured without any inconvenience to commerce, or
injury to the great interests of the country.
Mr. H. GURNEY said, that of the two propositions he
should prefer that of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen.
Lord .I. RUSSELL-said, 'that lie thought the discussion,
during the present evening, had established the fact, that, what
was called the Sinking Fund, was, in fact, nothing more than
the excess of the revenue over-the expenditure. Now, at the
commencement of the-Session the Right Hon. Gentleman had
boasted of a Sinking Fund of five millions. If therefore they
took two millions of that sum for the purpose of diminishing
taxation, it followed that only three millions would remain for
the Sinking Fund. That was in effect what the House was
about to do. He owned he thought that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer 'had taken the speeches of the Members as they
were reported in the newspapers on that day for the purpose
of confuting them. Be had first brought down one plan, 'and

flniling that- unpalatable, he had
,prolinced. another. • .IkIOW,,-
though this said ,but, little for the. consistency, of the Right
Honourable Gentleman, yet he owned that he was by: no
mean's displeased. with the last 'proposal. But he objecled
to the manner in which this new plan was brought into ac-
tion. The Commissioners were.- to go and dispose of Long
Annuities, while, at the same time the. Commissioners of the
Sinking Fund were to buy up these Long Annuities. Now it
was considered an admirable instance of the dramatkc skill of
Moliere, that in one his, comedies he should have introduced
an avaricious father, and a spendthrift son borrowing Money
froM that father; but how much more decisive would have
been his triumph had he introduced the dramatis persmia bor-
rowing money from himself; and yet such was the power of
the Chancelllor of the Exchequer that he bore away in .this in.
stance the honours of Moliere by actually giving to the House
of Commons the delight of beholding such a performer. With
respect to the whole plan, lie must say that he rejoiced that by
the completion of this measure a repeal of three million four
hundred thousand pounds would bi effected beyond the taxes
imposed in 1819.
Mr. Alderman HEYGATE objected to the principles of.the
measure, first, because it imposed a debt upon posterity which
it had no right to bear; and, secondly, because it attacked the
Sinking Fund, to the maintenance of which the 'House was
distinctly pledged. He contended that it was a virtual repeal
of a.portion of the Sinking Fund. He should be as ready to
congratulate the House upon the reduction of taxes as any
man, if it arose from an overflowing revenue or a reduced ex-
penditure, but not if it created a breach of public faith, as it
now would. The Resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman
might admit of a doubt as to its operation u' on the Sinking
Fund? but that of the lion. Member for Aberdeen was a di-
rect violation of the pledges.totwhichthe House had subscribed,
and of the two he should prefer the former.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS-denied that the Sinking Fund had
been maintained inviolate, and contended that it was now too
late to talk of keeping Parliament to its pledges. The Right
Hon. the Chancellor of. the Exchequer had departed,from his
pledges, and had destroyed the Sinking Fund, by reducing it
from what it ought to have been, between 20 and 30 millions,
to the paltry sum of five millions. He was glad to see a re-
duction of taxes, but he thought it ill became that House to
talk. of gratitude to the Ministers for the reduCtion of taxes,
when the distress of the country demanded it. He thought the.
Sinking Fund might be taken away altogether for a few years,
with the greatest advantage to the country: Its increased pro-
sperity, growing out of the reduction of the taxes, would then
enable us to establish another Sinking Fund without distress-
ing the people. .
Mr. CRIPPS considered the Right Hon. the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to be justified in maintaining a postive Lona.fide
Sinking Fund. • -
Capt. MABERLY wished to ask whether'the Leather Tax,
by this repeal, was to be placed upon the same footing on which
it stood in the.year 1812 ?—("Yes" from the Treasury Benches.)
—ln that case there was an additional drawback which would
remain, unless some provision were made for its reduction.—
He supported the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the
additional drawback would be repealed as well as the tax.
Mr. J. MARTIN said, that the Sinking Fund was a decep-
tion, and he should support the amendment.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment - • - - 3►
Against it - - 115
Majority in favour of the original Resolution --80
Several other resolutions were then agreed to.
Mr. HIJME observed, that as it appeared to him that this
was an indirect attempt at breaking through the Sinking Fund,
he should, upon the bringing up of the report, take the sense
of the House upon the direct step. . .
The House having resumed, the report was ordered to be re-
ceived on Thursday next.
WEST INDIAN AND AMERICAN TRADE BILL.
The above Bill went through a' Committee, in which Mr.
ROBINSON .observed, that as some amendments were made, it
would be desirable to have it printed in its entire form, and if
any further discussion were necessary, it could then .be taken.
The Report was ordered to be taken into furthir considera-
tion on Friday next.
COLONIAL TRADE BILL.

Mr. ROBINSON stated that the same remarks would apply
to this Bill, and it was accordingly disposed of in a similar
manner.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.

Mr. R. MARTIN moved the second reading of the ill-treat-
ment of Cattle Bill.
Mr. ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved as an amendmerit
that the Bill he read a second time this day six months.
Mr. MARTIN complained of want of courtesy in the At-
torney-General for not assigning his reasons for opposing a
measure which had passed the ordeal of three divisions, which
had been supported by every Magistrate, and from every pulpit
in the Metrop9lis, and to which no Christian refused his assent.
—He went into some very principal details of the cruelties to
which various species of animals were subjected.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL persevered in his Amend-
ment.

Mr. Alderman WOOD was inclined to vote for the Bill, al.:
though he thought there would be considerable difficulty in
arranging the detail.
Mr. HOLROYD opposed the motion.
Mr. WYNN contended that the Bill was an inroad on the
law of England.
• After some further discussion, in which Mr. Wilson, Mr.
Denman, Mr. Alderman Heygate, Mr. D. Gilbert, and Mr.
Alderman C. Smith participated, the House divided:—
For the Amendment, 11.1. Against it, 29—Majority, 11.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday se'nnight.
WINDOW-LIGHT TAX.

Sir R. SHAW said, that in consequence of a conversation
he had had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he wished
to withdraw the notice of his motion for the repeal of the Irish.
Window-tax. '

Mr. GOULBURN brought in a Bill to amend the condi-
tion of the Insolvent Debtors' Court in Ireland, and to assimi-
late its proceedings to that .of England.—lt was read a first
time, and ordeFed to be printed.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and 'the
House adjourned at Twelve o'Clock to Thursday next.