The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

VAGRANCY IN IRELAND.

Mr. STAFFOIU) wished to know whether there had
been any return made of the number of the paupers
begging lately in the city of Cork, and what was the
result of the measures which had been taken with re-
spect to them.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that ho had only re-
ceived a report on the subject, and he had understood
that an order had been given to the beggars continually

to move oa, and the result was that there had been
a great reduction in the number of paupers.—(Laughter.)
There had been no public subscription, but 1001. had
bleu grantNl by the corporation for that object, where
cases of excessive distress had been shown.
PAUPERS AND WASTE LAND IN IRELAND.
In reply to a question from Mr. E. DENISON, as to
the numb?r of able-bodied paupers in Ireland, and the
number of acres of waste laud in that country,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE replied that the returns did
not enable him to state the number of men who were
paupers in the waste land districts, but the whole num-
ber, including women and children, was 165,000; but ho
Would, however, make further inquiries and lay the re-
turns upon the table.—(Hear, hear.)
EMIGRATION DEPOT AT DEPTFORD.
Mr. St:o TT wished to inquire whether the Mr.
C6Per, at the head of the depot for emigration, was any
relation to the Mr. Cooper who was at the head of
another Government-office?—(Laughter.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE had no information, but he
Would inquire.
SIR WILLIAM PARKER'S EXPEDITION TO

NAPLES.

Mr. URQUHART wished to ask the First Lord of
the Treasury whether the Cabinet were aware that Sir
William Parker was scot for to Naples by the British
Minister, when they stated to Parliament that he went
there of his own accord?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentleman had
confused together two different transactions. The
question which was asked in August last was, he un-
d"rstood, as to whether Admiral Parker had
gone to Naples in consequence of the order of
her Majesty's Government, and whether he had
gone there for the purpose of interfering with the expe-
dition which was about to start from Naples to Sicily;
and he thought he gave then a sufficient answer to the
question. But the Honourable Gentleman now re-
ferred to the request of Lord Napier to Sir W.
Parker to go to Naples in the month of February,
and when he (Lord J. Russell) answered the question in
,August last the transactions which took place in Fe-
bruary never entered into his mind. At the time the
question was asked Admiral Parker had left Naples and
gone to Palermo, and ho naturally supposed it
had reference to that time. He (Lord John
Russell) remembered that when Lord Minto was at
Rome he was informed that Sir W. Parker intended
going to Naples, and he asked the Neapolitan Minister
it it would be agreeable to the King of Naples that the
British squadron should make its appearance there, and
he was informed that the King did not think
that its appearance would in any way militate
against his interest. He (Lord J. Russell) certainly un-
derstood the question to refer to recent transactions, and
not to what occurred in February.—(Hear, hear.)
PUBLIC HEALTH, &c., IRELAND.

Mr. SADLEIR asked whether it was the intention of
the Government to introduce a Health of Towns Bill for
Ireland, and a Bill to amend the Registration of Births,
Deaths, and Marriages?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, be would give the Hon.
Gentleman au answer on Monday.
POLICE RETURNS.

Mr. FItEWEN complained to the House that certain
returns relative to the rural police, which had been laid
on the table of the House, were not given in the form
which he desired.

Sir GEORGE GREY said, if the Hon. Member
Would point out in what respect the return was defective,
he (Sir George Grey) would endeavour to supply the
omission.

The motion was then put and agreed to that the House
at its rising do adjourn till Monday next.
LAND INIPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE-

LAND) BILL.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill being read,
Major BLACKALL said ho was far from under-
rating the intention of this Bill or the advantages to
Ireland likely to accrue from it ; but if the House wished
to give continuous employment to the poorer classes in
Ireland, they must give it by encouraging those who
were occupiers of the soil to become their employers at
money wages, and that could rot be effected by giving
grants of money from time to time. Owing to the
Poverty of the country, it was absolutely impossible
that those proprietors could at present give the assist-
ance which a as necessary. He would ask that the
scope of the Bill should he increased. The Bill at pre-
sent was entirely confined to draining, fencing, making
roads, and things of that sort. The farms were being
quickly consolidated, and thegreat difficulty in those farms
ii,) consolidated was that there were neither farm-houses
nor buildings applicable to the new state of things.
lie then read an extract from an Irish paper—the
Leinster Express—stating that the cul!ivation of
flat was extending, and recommending those who
had not used a portion of their land for that
purpose to do so, and that the crops of last year had
Proved very valuable. The same was the case in the
Queen's County. It would be recollected that last
Year, or the year before, agricultural instruc-
tors were sent out to Ireland by the Royal
Agricultural Society, and the Marquis of Clan-
ricarde had devoted a considerable sum to the
expense thus created. If the improvement of
the land was set about in earnest, the people
would have spades in their hands instead of
stone hammers. The Hon. and Gallant Member then
read extracts from Skibbereen and other places, showing
that the improvement of the land was proceeding,
and the necessity of affording the means of employment
to the large number of people who were starving.
The arterial drainage of Ireland was, in a measure,
allowed to be of the utmost importance. Large sums of
money had been advanced by this country for
that purpose, but unfortunately, when the works
would have been of great assistance to the people,
they were stopped, and now, it was only proposed
to vote a small sum for their continuance. Formerly
this mode of drainage was carried on with the aid of
private capital advanced upon the security of the lands
drained, and he really could see no reason why the
same system could not be resorted to now.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") Return to that system, and then
instead of advancing money without limitation, Govern.
went would be enabled to take security for the repay-
ment of their advances. One word before he sat down
in connexion with the railways. No doubt such works
would prove of the utmost advantage to Ireland, and he
only regretted that the promoters of .euch undertakings
in all parts of the country had not received more en-
couragement and support at the hands of the Govern-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to impress
upon the House that all these measures were quite in-
adequate to meet the wants of Ireland, and the Right
ll°l3. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland would delude
himself if he thought so.--(Elear, hear.) The eject-
meats now going on required some remedy, for, he would
Irk, What good results followed the passing of the Bill of
aat Year? Was it the intention of the House to depopu-
late Ireland, and by that means provides remedy for the
evils which afflicted that country, then were they pur
imis
o f tnhe g s
oln thereasonabl right course. Bat he did think the occupation
li
and that ystnall holdings was thegreatremedy
could not be done until protection was given those
occupiers from the harshness and injustice of evictions
as now carried on. Persons who
not going to ersons who spoke of English capital
Ireland, and, therefore, good, were inistek , ' productive of no
Ireland, if en, for there was capital enough in
aatnyrpesroper vent could be givenbut,
unhappily,present
ntehe greater part of it was taken
from the country, Hon. Gentleman then read an
address from the British Relief Association, in which it
was Plainly and broad) asserted that no good would
follow until security waswould given to occupiers of land. He
be totally ineflicient.g
The CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER ob-
seried that the time d
and
Member for Longford, were ul,
Gallant Friend, thenainpenhts spoken of by his Ho and
which
disposed of in the
vrlslii,,anetnsehrtid been stated onr a for-
place. %With regard to provionsia retoadz
ince evening about u char,
land, he had re3c2elivelli:geo
draining an acre of
trimmadunnicfair•
lieu on the subject, and could otil
Ilan. Gentleman who made theY,,hserve that if the had taken ordinary precaution in n ,charge, er his ageet,
°n his Own property, that could not h perintending works
perks alluded towere given aye occurred. The
What wCommonly under the Relief
as known as Mr. Lab . Act, or
and an ov,oushere's letter
„overseer appointed, who lived ""nan'a Owe e' on the Hon. Gen. and of property; eat when an officer flora tlee
Worl
and
his
man
shit!. visited the place ho found the oversee;
(A laugh.) Ing
under the hedges, doing nothing.
d 1,,,..,That was the way in which things wg."---
00 the land—..and -- and s.,t- -I ',' h 1 ere
_ spot
will no
, t.e. 11 Gat ‘‘)),l reFies.d
lievernment do ot touk aver ill:se things, how cell a
Ur rise so?
G • -ltsgy G
enslitzu , ORE concurredwiththe R. that the
work ivas done

chore's Act, but neither he (Mr. Gore) nor his agent
knew anything of the work until they received a bill
from the Government for 200 L, being at the rata of 32L
per acre for drainage. But that was not all, for 1501.
was afterwards charged him 1o: draining nine acres and
a hall. The Hon. Gentleman then read a communica-
tion he received from Ireland, in which it was stated
that 24L was charged for the drainage of three-
quarters of an acro. The letter also stated that the
Whigs were determined to ruin Ireland, and charged
the Board of Works with employing a host of incapa-
bles. The Government, when they undertook works
ought to be compelled to finish them; and it was not
fair, as in the case of the drainage of the
Shannon, that those who were at the source of the
river should be compelled to pay for works which
yielded them no benefit,
Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR felt bound to bear his testi-
mony to.the excellent manner in which Mr.`Labouchere's
Act was carried out, and believed that the greatest ad-
vantage must be derived to Ireland from the passing of
the Bill before the House.
Mr. F. FRENCH condemned the system pursued by
the Board of Works in Ireland, where in every ease they
exceeded, by at least one-third, the estimates of the
works which they undertook to perform. It was there-
fore material to keep a check on the proceedings of the.t
body. What be objected to was, that this loan with not
sufficient to lay the foundation for future improvement.
He should extend the enema of communication through
every one of the distressed districts. It was calculated
that 50 000 acres of the best arable land in Connaught
was now lying waste: If the means of cultivating that
and similar districts in Ireland were forthcoming, it
would open up a mine of wealth to that country.
Mr. HOR6MAN said that when they considered the
slight results that bad followed hitherto all their mea-
sures for the relief of Ireland, they were bound to give
the fullest reflection to the plans of amelioration now
suggested from various quarters. He believed that the

people of England won't; willingly and cheerfully give
what they could spare for the relief of the starving po-
pulation of Ireland, but they would require that what
they advanced should bo distributed upon economic
principles and in a manner really beneficial to the peo-
ple of Ireland. The mortality of that country was
greatly increasing, and their physical condition was daily
deteriorating. In proof of this the lion. Gentleman read
several extracts from the Imes and other newspapers.
lie saw a letter addressed to a clergyman the other day,
from which it appeared that the people were dying
in awful numbers from want, and that the sources

of industry were entirely wanting. A corre-
spondent of the Honourable Member for Dorset-
shire (Mr. Bankes) stated that upon driving through a
part ot the country a short time ago, he was obliged to
stop his car five or six times in the course of the day, to
remove the dead bodies out of the way. The sight of
multitudes of the poor dying in this way was shocking
to humanity. Judging, however, from the speech ot the
Bight Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) the other night, one would suppose that the state
of Ireland was improving, and by no means so bad as
represented. But it appeared from the best evidence
that in many districts the landlords were entirely
ruined, and the proprietors could find no tenants.
In may districts, such a thing as a healthful, able
man, could not be found. From , a combination
of evils, the country generally was in almost
a state of permanent depression. Seeing that these
were not merely temporary causes of depression, it was
idle for any ono to write from Ireland, giving accounts
of isolated cases of improvement. Now compare
this measure with the evil it was intended to cure. They
had to aim at the immediate preservation of life, and of
healthful agricultural operations; and in establishing
kindly feelings between the two countries; but this loan
was only to smploy the able-bodied man. The weak
and disabled would not profit, and were only reserved
for more cruel distress and misery. As to the success of

agricultural operations, in the present state of things it
was quite out of the question. There was not one single
transaction connected with land in which they were not
harassed and trammelled by imperfect legislation, by
isolated and unconnected measures, of which that now
under the consideration of the House was one, and
therefore he protested against it. They wanted a
system based on a statesmanlike policy, and not a ae-
ries of little measures which would not benefit Ireland,
and would ultimately be a cause of ruin and oppression
to England.

Sir G. GREY said that the measures of Government
did not deserve the censure cast upon them by the Hon.
Member. The money they had advanced from time to
time had not been thrown away. At that moment
twenty thousand able-bodied men, representing a million
of the population, were now employed by the means
adopted by the Government, and so satisfactory were the
results which followed from the loans they had advanced,
that a good use had been made of the money, and in
some districts the greater part of it had been repaid.
The improvement was as yet of a limited character, be-
cause the whole sum at the disposal of the Government
was not expended, but when it was, the benefits resulting
from it would be greater than was anticipated. The
Hon. Gentleman had also stated that there was not a
proprietor in the west of Ireland who was in a state
to avail himself of these loans, and had quoted the
evidence of Captain Hamihoe, to disprove the state-
ments of Mr. Bourke. When Mr. Bourke, in March
last, gave evidence as to the destitution which existed,
he was a most credible witness in the estimation of
the Hun. Gentleman; but when in April the same gen-
tleman states that there are prospects of improvement,
he would not believe his evidence.—(Hear, bear.) With
respect to the evidence of Captain Hamilton, all he would
say was, that even in the union of Ballina there were
landlords who were availing themselves of these ad-
vances to employ labour, and in other distressed unions
the proprietors were applying for loans, and what was to
hinder the House from granting these loans, in the face
of past experience, that they had been employed safely,
and duly repaid ? —(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman asked
t% here was the use of employing these walking spectres?
Why, the use of these grants was, to prevent others from
becoming walking spectres, and from falling into the
same situation, by means of profitable employment; to
give the landlords the means of employing the people
at the same time that they improved their own estates,
and added to the wealth of the country. He would not
follow the Honourable Gentleman into the other parts
of his speech, much of which had no reference to the
measure before the Howe, but was merely an explana-
tion of his vices as to the nature of the policy which
ought to be pursued in Ireland. Ho would only say
that the Hon. Gentleman misrepresented the Govern-
ment when he stated that they said legislation would do
nothing. All they said was, that legislation could not
do every thing, and that though they could remove ob-
stacles, and grant facilities for the improvement of the
country, there was a spirit of determination to take ad-
vantage of these facilities on the part of the people.—
(Ueda., hear.) The Hon. Gentleman in this very unfair
attack upon the Government had said much that had ne
application to the Bill before the House, upon which the
Hon. Gentleman should have taken the sense of the
House, if he was opposed to it, and not have been con-
tented with a protest. If ho had done so he (Sir G.
Grey) believed there would have been a large majority
in its favour.

After a few words from Mr. EORSMAN in ex-
planation, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of tais
Bill being read,

Mr. STAFFORD said he merely rose to state briefly
but most cordially his entire approval of this Bill. If
anything could do good to Ireland, it would be a mea-
sure of this kind. He thanked the Government for

bringing it forward, and earnestly hoped it would prop
duce all the benefits they wished to confer by it.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL also briefly expressed his ap-
proval of the Bill, as calculated to be of real benefit to
•

Ireland, though perhaps some of its details might re-
quire amendment.

Mr. GROGAN approved of the object of the Bill, and
did not rise to detain the House by any remarks upon
its details. He wished, however, to state that more was
required than this Bill. There were at present more
estates for salo in Ireland than could find purchasers,
and until some radical change was effected in the
machinery of the poor-law, he did not believe that any
permanent confidence could be given to either landlords
or tenants.

Sir H. W. BARRON said that recently an estate had
been sold in Dublin 60 per cent. under its real value,
while, as had been stated, others could not be sold at
all. Ile merely stated this fact, to show that merely
o rnot nothing—they o
facilitating the sale of incumbered estates would do
little must stop t
could induce
e drai n
ndooo caused by
the poor-law —tbey
estates, before they
per-
sons to embark capital on land which was likely to
prove a source of expense to its purchaser. These were
hints on the plans which had been d suggeste by the
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, and by the lion.
Member for Tewkesbury, which were well
worthy of the attention of the Government,
lately essential to the completion of and
la b
anysnod-
p
efficient remedy for Ireland. He did not objectct toica a
the
Bill in itself, but would earnestly impress upon them the
necessity for additional measures.
Colonel DUNNE could not concur with many of his
countrymen in the approval they hal bestowed on this
Bill, lie thought that to bring more estates into a mar-
ket which was already overstocked was acting most mis-
chievously.—(Hear.) If the law was defective, why did
they not amend it, instead of suspending the law for
three years, and investing a power in the hands of a tri-
umvirate ofCommissioners, who would have uncontrolled
power over every man who had borrowed money on his
estates.—
(Hear, hear.) Unless he knew who these three
Commissioners were how could he have confidence in
them? __aoches
For instance, if the Hon... Menaber. k
Mfo r.
ter (Mr. Bright), was
one of them, with his known opi-
nions on the subject, how could the Irish landlords have
in him? There was no guard in the
any
confidenceof their powers; there was no
Bill against the abuse
thatgiven by the 20th, clause,
power of appeal, except . .
that it had first
worth little, seeing
which, after all, was
~
ners themselves. One
to be sanctioned by the Commissioners
unable
excuse for the Bill was, that landlords were either
of
or unwilling to employ labour; but the
worthlessness
Irish that excuse was shown by the fact, that the .
,e pro-
prietors had borrowed two millions for reproductive
la-
bour, that a Bill for further advances was now before
SP, a n,
the Hoe • I that, Right
and that, as stated by the
. t
Honourable Baronet, there were now more • than 20,000_
persons employed by there means, in addition to the
ordinary labour of the country. Ile denied
altogether that the proprietors were bound to
provide employment for the whole population, and he
had no doubt that at the present moment the Irish pro-
prietors employed a much greater proportion than the
English proprietors did. Ho believed that if they threw
the property of the Irish landlords into the market, to
be bought be English specolators, they would simply
add to one or ;,,,: ;:r ,a,0.1 ,•vis, earn, lv, abs,,e,tec, pr,:pro-
turs.—(llE.ar, hew.'.) Luc, u, he had said boom, his
greatest objection to the Bill was, that it left everything
to the discretion of the Commissioners, and until they
Were named be thought the Government ought not to

eall upon the House to agree to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
There were competent persons in Ireland to work such
a measure. The Chancellor ought to be one, from his
knowledge of the law, If he was not satisfied on this
point, and no member divided the House at that stage, he
begged to give notice that he would take the sense of the
House upon it at a future stage.
Sir A. BROOKE could not concur with his Honour-
able and Gallant Friend, who had just sat down. On
the contrary, ho believed that under the Bill, the value
of property would btitraitedefFve years' purchase at least.
At the same time he itinst Ile on the attention of the
Government, the necessity 0 compelling the owners of
land to provide employment and subsistence for the peo-
ple on their estates. Absenteeism was the great evil of
Ireland, and it was one of the most essential and im-
portant changes they could make, to compel absentees,
in some way or other, to contribute to the support of a
fair proportion of the people on their estates. He had
on various occasions urged this point on the attention of
the !louse, and would continue to do so whenever he
had en opportunity. In the meantime be would give
his vote for the second reading of this Bill, belisving
that its principle vs as an excellent one.
Mr. TURNER thought that many of the provisions
with respect to the Commissioners were of a most ex-
traordinary and unprecedented character.—(Hear,
hear.) In the Slave Compensation Act, instructions
were, laid down for the guidance of the Commissioners,
and ho thought that in this case some such instruc-
tions should be provided, an I especially binding
them to look to the interest of the first mort-
gagee, who might be altogether sacrificed by the present
Bill.—(Hear, hear.) A very large sum of money had
been invested by Engliet capitalists on the security of
Irish estates, and he thought it was the duty of the
House to protect these interests.—(Hear, hear.) Some
of the provisions of the measure were such as he had
never seen in any Bill before.—(Hear, hear.) The Com-
missioners might compel the production of titles, and it
was well known that in certain cases this might materi-
ally reduce the value of the estate as a security. In ad-
dition to this, the Commissioners had the power of setting
aside the decisions of the Court of Equity, which he
thought &most dangerous precedent, and calculated to
be productive of great mischief in practice. He objected
to the clause which excluded the jurisdiction of a Court
of Equity over the decisions of the Commissioners, and
denied relief against whatever determinations they might
arrive at with respect to the sale of any estates. He did
not intend dividing the House on the principle of the
Bill, but he trusted that the provisions to which he had
just called attention would be either expunged or
modified.
Mr. SADLEIR gave general support to the Bill, and
answered some of the objections urged by the Noble and
Learned Member for Coventry. Some such measure was
absolutely necessary for the welfare of all classes in Ire-
land. While the number of decrees against property
had greatly increased, the sales effected in the various
western offices bad steadily decreased. The Incum-
brance Estates Bill of last session was wholly impracti-
cable. Not a rood of land would ever be sold under it,
and he trusted the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would
consent to repeal it by the measure under consideration,
and embody in it the ono or two useful and valuable
clauses that Act contained. It was quite competent for
the Legislature to enable the Commissioners to extin-
guish intermediate interests, and commute them for a
terminable rent-charge. There were two millions of
acres of land in Ireland, held under joint tenancy, and he
thought there ought to be a clause inserted in the Bill to
facilitate the sale of undivided or unpartitioned portions
of property. The mode proposed to enforce the orders
of the Commissioners in England and. Scotland was
rather cumbrous. There should be summary and
distinct power given them to enforce their
orders in England and Scotland, as well as in Ireland.
Ho did not know how it was intended to deal with the
queation of arrears of rent, but be thought the Commis-
sioners ought to ho empowered to deal with it, and not
allow it to remain a practicable barrier between the
landlord and tenant. When estates were thoroughly
bankrupt the Commissioners should be placed in a posi-
tion to put the Act in force, without any application be-
ing made to them for that purpose by incuwbrancers.
Ho pressed on the consideration of the Government the
necessity of giving a cheap and summary mode of en-
forcing the payment of arrears of poor-rate by the sale
(Aland. The Bill was not clear on this subject. It re-
quired simplification, and an easier mode of coming at
the landed proprietor for his arrears of rate, without do-
ing injustice to any party. They could safely entrust the
adjudication of matters connected with the recovery of
arrears of poor-rate to the assistant barristers, and have
their civil bill decrees registered as judgments in Dublin,
and thus proceed against the land like all other judg-
ments. He thought an amendment might be introduced
into the Bill during the session which would make
landed property in Ireland a convertible security for
money. It' tha te
miw.moe
rar
een
efd
ono
rt n
the
hm, soep
lr
landed
thatnv
deme
de mpu
rto
ono
pfe
ryi
thee ct oo
sur
osl
idtl
12, bah
nee
afone ob-
tained
thata
ei
‘naiesirdu.trlfievoiorEwu
ohldithehadGcdhplol,
a f t
er beena pu rd.
noi
,pnoioznes
me: dohb.
that
r t(mi
hfo
eler e
Baer
ireo.iml)v
wea
nar
tksrscyawp(l:llbilelrhe.
had
nbeere)n, madsnid be ye wtahseoHf
oopni
of doing the greatest amount of good to the bulk of the
people of Irehind. He thought the objections urged by
the Hoe. Member for Coventry were not well founded,
and were met by two clauses in the Bill. He thought,
also, they had no right to suppose that incompetent per-
sons would be appointed by Government to fill the im-
portant offices of Commissioners, or that if there was
any danger they would arrive at an unfair or vicious
conclusion in the performance of their duties. With
reference to what had been said by his lion. and Gallant
Friend the Member for l'ortarlington (Colonel Dunne)
about the impropriety of attempting to do away with
those fences and guards which ought to surround pro-
perty in Ireland, ho (Mr. Keogh) hoped, whatever
might be the opinion of people out of doors, that that
House, in legislating for the improvement of the
social condition in Ireland, would not listen to
the monstrous doctrine that the law's delays should
be permitted to stand in the way of those changes
which the condition of the country required.—(Hear,
hear.) As to the appointment of receivers under the
Court of Chancery, he could say, of his own knowledge,
Vint their appointment was a matter of traffic between
certain parties interested. The Right Hen. Baronet
(Sir Robert Peel) was kind enough to inform him that
nine of the largest estates in one union in the west of
Ireland were under the management of receivers, and
he (Mr. Keogh) had no doubt that the union in which
those estates were situated was among the bankrupt
unions. Having spoken of the west of Ireland, he would
state that there were several estates, comprising so much
as 279,000 Irish acres (one of them was Mr. Martin's,
containing 196,000 Irish acres), the owners of which
would gladly avail themselves of a measure which would
find them purchasers.—(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that
that fact was a sufficient answer to the objections which
had been urged by the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr.
Turner). Considering the lamentable condition of Ire-
land, and feeling ashamed, as he had often done, at hear-
ing the term mendicant applied to his countrymen when
applications were made to the House for the relief of the
distress which prevailed, he would gladly concur in any
measure which would relieve them from that, their de-
graded position.—( Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY, after referring to the failure of the
Bills passed in 1847 and 1843, said the thing that was
necessary was to lot loose the ineumbered estates in Ire-
land, and the question was, whether to effect that the
Bill before them did not go too far. Decrees for sale
were at present easily enough obtained, but the difficulty
was to find purchasers.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Carlow had told them that they could not stop
here—they must go farther.—(gear, hear.) Hon.
Members who had supported the present measure had
admitted that there was an abundance of land for sale

under the decrees of Court. Lat them, therefore, be
content with that mode of proceeding; give a Parlia-
mentary title, and then see what will be the result, before
they had recourse to the present measure. If they
passed the present measure, they were bound either to
show a special reason why they should set aside the
course of that tribunal having the authority, or else the
tribunal itself should be altogether swept away.
Mr. MARTIN was of opinion that the time was come
when the landed interest of Ireland should be released
from the incubus which pressed upon them. But he
held that there did not exist any precedent for what was
now proposed to be done. /f they passed this measure,
without its being altered in the way suggested by him,
it would not work well. If they meant the Bill to work
properly they must make the three Commissioners a

Court of Rec-ord, with the powcre.of a Court of Record;

otherwise their proceedings would be upset by techni-
calities and legal rules. If the gentlemen of Ireland
would give ti? the present system of tying up estates to
the prejudice of younger children, they would do much
to place Ir.:laud in the position in which she ought to
be placed—namely, something in the position of this
country.

TheSOLICITOR-GENERAL said that this ques-
tion must tio considered, not merely in regard to its
legal character, it must also be considered in a social
and moral point of view. It was said that they would
not find purchasers of land in Ireland under this Bill.
He denied this, because the difficulty of finding pur-
chasers now had relation to the want of title. This
Bill would give a title. It was proposed to intro-
duce certain alterations in the Bill. It was intended
to give the Commissioners the power of making parti-
tions of individual interests which were incumbered. It
was also proposed to give the power of exchange, by the
consent of parties, and also to enforce and rescind con-
tracts, where such a course might be considered for the
interests of the parties concerned. A law similar to this
was in existence in Scotland for the last two hundred
yeurs, and had worked well. Ile believed that the
effect of this Bill would be to benefit the mortgagee.
He concurred in the suggestion to get rid of the middle-
man, the thirtieth clause provided for that. What should
be done for Ireland is not to be effected by one Bill, but
by a aeries of Bills, and that was what the Government
endeavoured to accomplish by having one measure sub-
sidious to another. The first thing was to have the land
treed from incumbrances, and an improved system of
registration
established. If these measures were carried
into effect they would no longer require coercion Acts;
but the people, receiving the blessings of a paternal Go-
vernment, would support the law, and prosperity be given
to that country.
Mr. NAPIER said the nature of the incumbrance
lacribdavxryreirnytbinattrcicoautleit,r3huwt
were
deniedob'ectionaide than those in England, He thought
rctyouinrtslri(n,
uriuus to transfer the
.jurisdiction of the
uponthie;i
tparetlec
to the Court of Common Pleas, as
..ithcory b
- the Member for Pontefract. It
had been suggested Courty of Chancery could not be
implied that the
he could not admit to be correct.
proved, an opinion
read a second time, and ordered
Courtimt o'vr(ei
u would
dif
bee hi
next.
to be committed on idonTd\,,:iy,,,,, A
.;Es
BILL.
,1;111I4 tti,en moved the se-
cond (-11';''Leases Bill. The object
The Bill was then
Court of Chancery power to
of the Bill was to give the lawfully give,
give such a lease as the grantor Wight cond ading of the Defects in