The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-17 00:00:00

should be paid, at his (Sir E. Sugden's) suggestion, he
believed ; hut still it was evident, from the tendency of
the present clause, that there was a hankering in his mind
after the same thing, though he had transferred it from
the rent to the assessed taxes, and required that every one
should bring to the polling booth his receipts for those
taxes ; so that it seemed that the only difference was, that
the landlord was to be left to take care of himself, and that
the great anxiety of the Noble Lord now was, that the
King's Exchequer should be duly filled, which no doubt
arose from his being aware that the state of the Exchequer
was one of the great sources of the mechanical power.
Care, however, ought to be taken that the people should
be made fully acquainted with the fact, that the unde-
niable effect of this clause would be to produce a long
series of yearly litigation. But he had not yet noticed all
the extraordinary provisions which had been made in this
Bill by the Noble Lord. In the first place, it was pro-
vided that the landlord should be rated to the poor, and
that lie should be liable to the payment of those rates ;
and yet, after that, there was an arrangement by which the
occupier might claim the right of paying the poor rate for
the premises which he occupied. Now what could the
Noble Lord expect from such an enactment as this—but
the most beautiful clashing and confusion in the state of
the poor book ; it could not by any chance be otherwise ;
for, according to this plan, there were to be two persons
paying for the same premises, and in the event of non-pay-
ment there must, necessarily, be a confusion as to
the individual from whom the payment was to be
enforced and the rate to be recovered. But this
was not all ; he wanted the Noble Lord to tell him
at what period the occupant's claim to pay the poor rate
was to be made—whether it was to be before the registra-
tion or after it ; and if after the registration, whether it
must in that case necessarily be before the time for giving
his vote arrived ? It must strike every one that this Bill,
as soon as it should become the law of the land, would
produce two consequences completely independent of the
general results of this measure. In the first place, it would
necessarily give rise to the establishment of nominal wages,
and of a consequent increased advance in the rents of
houses occupied by the lower orders; this was quite evi-
dent, so long as there was such a strong inducement held
out to convert a house of 61. or Si. a year, into one of 101.
a year. Every man who had in his employment a number
of workmen, who might, perhaps, be only just raised
above the condition of beggary, and who provided them
with habitations, as was frequently the case in many
parts of the country, would find it very convenient
to raise the wages of those men nominally, so as to
allow for the difference of charging the sum of 101.
a year rent for their houses, instead of the smaller
sum which they had previously been in the habit
of paying ; by which means he would have the ad-
vantage of being able to place them in the registry,
with the prospect of commanding their votes according to
his interest when the period of election should arive.
Another operation of the Act which he was going to
mention, and which, be imagined, no one could doubt
for a moment, was such as entitled the Bill, in
his opinion, to a new name; and he should, there-
fore, lie glad to find, that in future it was to
be called a Bill for the encouragement of the
growth of 101. houses—not that the houses would become
better in their condition, or more valuable as a bona fide
property, but because the action of the Bill would be to
sweep away all those rents that were just below the stand-
ard fixed therein, and to merge them in one universal 101.
renting. The consequence of this change would be, that
a general alteration of the most extensive nature would
take place throughout the whole of the country, and there
would spring, up in every district, but more particularly
in those connected with the manufactures of the country,
an entirely new species of constituency, sufficiently rime-
rous in themselves to overbear all the rest of the voters of
the kingdom. The great disadvantage of this would be,
that it would be adding fresh strength to the Political
Unions that were already too powerful, and which, he
feared, would at last possess an entire controul over the
actions of the House of Commons; besides which, the
annual registration which would be necessary would anon
teach the people to make a demand for annual elections,
in order that they might not hare their time wasted for
nothing. The lion. and Learned Gentleman then ad-
verted to the barristers that were to he appointed under
the Bill, and protested against that part of the measure, as
putting by far too much political power into the hands of
the Lord Chancellor, who, what with this Bill, and what
with the Bankrupt Act, would have a direct controul
over every barrister and every attorney in the kingdom,
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman proceeded to say
that the time for making the registry and for making pre-
parations for the election would be a time of excitement ;
and what, he would ask, would the election itself be ?
The Noble Lord thought he would gallop through it in two
days, but that was impossible. If it were possible that the
election was to be carried on at several different places, so
that no freeholder should have more than fifteen miles to
travel, there would be a great many polling places, and the
exuenee, instead of being lessened, would be as great as if
the election were to last thirty day's. He considered that
all the machinery invented by the Noble Lord was quite
unnecessary, and would be worse than useless. It was only
calculated to create confusion and disorder. Another ob-
jection ,s hich lie had to the Bill was the great power it
conferred on the metropolitan districts. For that he had
not beard any good reason ; and that, he considered, would
be full of danger. Should it be carried into execution, he
was afraid that would occur here which had happened in
a neighbouring kingdom. There Paris was all France,
and the people looked exclusively to the capital ; but he
hoped that London would never become all England, and
that the people would never forget thasnselres to con.
sider only London. There was a great danger in giv-
ing so much power to the metropolis. He had him-
self seen, on a late occasion, a proclamation, issued
by the King, posted up at a place where a sentinel
was parading ; and adjoining the King's proclama-
tion was a proclamation of an individual, advising the
people not to meet, lie called it a proclamation, fur
it seemed to have all the authority of one. In that pro-
clamation, too, the people were told not to meet, be-
cause the recommendation to meet came from the blood-
thirsty boroughinongers, who only wished to lead the
people into mischief. The King's Government issued one
proclamation, and some individual issued another, pre-
scribing the conduct of the people. Here they saw, too,
the individuals who had done their duty in Parliament
marked out for destruction—for it was marking them out
for destruction, and encouraging the people to shed their
blood, by representing all those as boroughmongers and
opposed to the wishes of the people who were inimical to
the Bill. To that danger Parliament would be exposed,
and exposed to it in a greater degree in proportion as the
inhabitants of the metropolis had an influence over the
House. He objected; therefore, to the Bill, that it most
unwisely added to the power of the metropolis. If it was
passed, toe, he thought it would not be possible, after its
evils were made manifest, to alter its provisions. If the
Bill brought in last session had been passed, it was clear
that the House would not have been able to alter its ob-
noxious enactments. The House would not then have
been able to do what it bad done, by bringing in the pre-
sent Bill. The House of Commons had been stigmatised
by the Noble Lord himself, and would have been, if the
Bill had passed, unable to fulfil its functions. But why
should that House destroy itself? Must it die to give
birth and perfection to its own creation ? In doing that,
the new Parliament would have no ties to the old, and it
was well known that all new bodies began by destroying
the usages of the old bodies. In a new Parliament,
therefore, if the measure lately introduced by the Mi-
nisters into that House were to he introduced, they must
agree to all its absurd provisions. They would be told
it was the very measure they had advocated—their own
offspring—their own descendant; and if a reformed Par-
liament wished to go farther, the Ministers would have
no principle on which they could resist it. He called
on the House, before passing the Bill, to give his Ma-
jesty's Ministers time to try and bring in a more moderate
measure. He had the authority of Mr. Attwood for say-
ing that this Bill was more democratic than the last, and
a measure which he regarded as more democratic could
never receive his (Sir E. Sugden's) assent. This Bill was
creating a new Constitution. There was nothing like it
in the world—there never was any thing like it—and no
man could tell what would be the result. The wisest
man who ever lived could not tell how it would work, and
what it would produce. The House should recollect that
it was not only one Bill that was before them. There was
also a Reform Bill for Ireland, and a Reform Bill for
Scotland. It was admitted that if the Reform Bill for
Scotland were carried, it must be an extensive Reform, as
that mighty Reform would operate a great change on the
mass of the constituency of the whole country. The same
would be the effect of the Irish Reform Bill. It would
give new rights of voting, and a new constituency. In
Ireland the nomination boroughs had been done away
before the Union, end he had the authority of the Right
Hon. Baronet (the Member for Waterford) for saying, that
at that period the constituency of Ireland was purely po-
pular, and as much so as it could be, consistently with
the safety of the empire. If that were true, what could
be expected from now making it more popular and more
democratic ? The Hon. and Learned Member concluded
by professing that his motive was only the benefit of the
country, and by expressing a hope that the public would
attribute such a motive to those who opposed the Bill. lie
declared, too, that he was nut an enemy to rational Re-

form, that he would support a moderate Reform, 1 ut he
could not support this Bill. He would, therecre, support
the amendment.

The amendment was then put from the Chair.
Mr. E. L. BULWER said, he had listened to the
speeches of Hon. Gentlsmen opposite with attention, and
was glad to find that the question was not one of mere
abstract principle, but whether a particular plan of Re.
form was that best adapted to the admitted wants of the
country. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded at some length
to combat the arguments usually urged against the Reform
Bill--that it tended to weaken the just influence of the
House of Lords in the decisions of the Legislature, and to
add to the democratic institutions of the country at the
expense of the aristocratic. Hon. Members had objected
to the extensive nature of the last Bill. Why ? Because
it was not right to weaken the aristocracy to give strength
to the democratic spirit. They had rejected the Bill, and
what in this respect was the consequence ? Were the aris-
tocracy now safer than they were before—had any cheek
been imposed on the progress of the democratic spirit—or
had they not fed the popular fervour to a fiercer heat by
the dangerous fuel of continued excitement ? A great dif-
ference must be made between the excitement which grows
naturally out of a Constitution and that excitement whirl,
opposes it. Popular agitation was a necessary ingredient
in free countries, but in good Governments it was worked
off by legitimate means. In America there was no danger
in the ferment of opinions—free elections furnished them
with natural vents. But that excitement which now be-
longed to tea—the excitement that paralysed trade—that
benumbed industry—that ripened towards universal po-
verty and universal discontent—that produced the desire,
and, if not soon allayed, might produce the necessity, for
National Unions and Political Associations—he held to be
fraught with the darkest and the moat irremediable evils
to that country in which it was long suffered to exist ;
ebove all, if that country were a commercial country_
above all, if it had supported its greatness by an artificial
system—above, all, if credit had become so vital a part of
its prosperity, that every popular mistrust was the ,nevi-
' table forerunner of a stagnant trade and a crowded bank-
rupt list. Why Was Manchester more democratic than
Liverpool ? Because Manchester was unrepresented. Let
England be as liberal to Manchester ; give a free vent to
opinion in both, and if h-reafter they are startled by the
mighty course of that opinion, they should at least be no
longer endangered by its explosion. Hon. Gentlemen had
said that Reform would operate against the three aristo-
cracies of all civilised countries—the aristocracy of talent,
of the Church, and of rank and wealth. Now, with re-
gard to the first, it was said that men of retired and cul-
tivated habits of mind, not being able, either from pecu-
liarities of disposition or circumstances, to brave the
chances of a popular election, were returned to this House
by means of a close borough ; and it was argued from that
that close boroughs were necessary for their return. He
waived altogether those long theoretical disquisitions
which had been so copiously indulged on this point ; yet
what, he asked, was the practical result of free elections
abroa I ? Look to America, there elections are of all
countries the most popular, and there of all countries that
class of men he alluded to found the readiest access to po-
litical honours. Look even to their President, for in one
memorable instance he would absolutely find the man who
had attained the chief magistracy, the highest honour the
republic can bestow, an Academician, and a Professor of
Letters. In France, he allowed, elections were not popular,
but there, at least, they had no close boroughs; yet most
of those who had distinguished themselves in politics—M.
deniers, M. de Guizot, M. de Bignon—belonged ex-
actly to those classes whom the Hon. Member declared
close boroughs could alone return to the national councils.
Were they then to believe that France and America were
more alive than England to ability and merit 7—lf so, we
have the remedy—a high and noble remedy, in our
own hands—that remedy lies in no system of corruption
and perjury; it has no charm that clings to the walls of
Old Sarum, that remedy lies in a general education of the
people.—(Hear, hear.) If the people cannot appreciate
knowledge--diffuse knowledge, and they will. Are Hon.
Members afraid of the power of the democracy ? Instruct
the people as to their interest, and they will transfer at
once the power of the democracy to the power of intelli-
gence. Hon. Gentlemen next said the Church was to
miller, and he for one would not deny that the Church
must undergo souse great and efficient Reform—(Hear)—
if Reform in the eyes of Hon. Gentlemen were always to
signify destruction. But was the Church in no danger
now? He would tell them that in one memorable night a
tar deeper wound was inflicted on the ecclesiastical esta-
blishments of England tha❑ twenty years would have ef-
fected if that Bill had been passed, and the people had been
brought to see in the defenders of the Church the supporters
also of the people. Was the Church in danger now-why ?
Because it was unpopular ! Unpopularity was the only source
of danger to any constitutional authority. The institutions the
people begin to believe inimical to their interests begin al-
ready to fail. If they would render the ecclesiastical esta-
blishment safe, they must render it beloved. It was the
same with the aristocracy of rank. Popularity was the
condition of their existence. The Member for Caine had
proved in his speech in the last session that the laws
which the public refused to acknowledge fell at once into
disrespect and disuse. It was the same with persons as
with laws—with the Legislative Assembly as with the le-
gislative enactment. Opinion gave its only sanction to
both. When Hon. Members accused us Reformers, then,
of stripping the aristocracy of power, did they mean to
say that we stripped them of the love, and esteem, and
gratitude of their countrymen? That was the only power
they possessed. No ! that task was reserved for the Anti-
Reformers. It was they who wakened the aristocracy by
alienating them from the hearts of the people. Would
you preserve them ? identify them with the people !
Would you strengthen their interest ? make their inte_
rest and the interest of the people one ! When William IV,
came to the throne, Kings were not popular. Who now
ever says a word against a Monarchy.—(Cheers.) Black
hooks were not published about the King. He is not ca-
lumniated, for his people would not purchase, and cherish,
and foster—they would scout the calumny. Why see,
this? Because the King had conciliated opinion.—(Rear,
hear.) Let the aristocracy do the same, and they will, i❑
their turn, put down calumny and clamour at once. For
himself individually (concluded the Hon. Gentleman),
he cared not how soon he may be called upon to relin-
quish his seat in this House. But he trusted, at least,
that he should be here to witness the full accomplish-
ment of this gm-eat measure. He knew that be should
see that House faithful to its former pledges, but he trusted
he should also see another assembly wisely and magnani-
mously reversing the decree which has separated itself from
the people. He said wisely, for till within the last two
years, why was it that no foreigner could enter the country,
without surprise at the almost servile respect for an Aria.
tocracy, that pervaded all classes ? Why was it that the
English Nobles were, as a body, the most powerful in
Europe ? Was it not because in the great crisis of past
history, instead of opposing, they led the way to popular
institutions ? they blended themselves socially and legisla-
tively with the people ; they grew with the growth of
that people and strengthened with its strength. He said
wisely, because, if they would recur to their former power,
they must recur to their former popularity. He said,
too, magnanimously as well as wisely reversing their
past decree—for whatsoever consequence may attend that
reversal—whatsoever may be the future operations of that
public mind which we can only temper, not prophetically
anticipate, or permanently direct, the reversal of that de-
cree, the concession to this Reform, will stand forth at
least to posterity a great memorial ; that in the hour of
danger and trial, the Peers of England did not persist in
dividing themselves from that people with whom hitherto
their proudest distinctions have been associated ; but that,
conscious of time justice of their high cause, they entrusted
it willingly to that free tribunal of opinion before which
falsehood is indeed condemned, but truth is eternally
triumphant.
. _ _

Lotd MAHON said, that he had given this Bill his
best consideration, and was anxious to vote for the
second reading; but he was compelled to say, that
with no disposition to oppose all Reform, he could
not support the motion for the second reading.
There were several changes made in it—the Com-
missioners bad been done away—the census of 1831 had
been adopted—the principle of houses and property had
been substituted for population—all changes which had
been recommended and enforced by the arguments on
that (the Opposition) side of the House ; but the Bill was
not sufficiently altered to make it acceptable to him. The
alterations were quite large enough on which to found a
party triumph—(Hear, hear, hear)—but they were not
enough to remove the danger which threatened the
country. He still saw in the Bill enactments enough
Ito produce mischief—it was still the same sweeping
measure of disfranchisement, and it still continued the
same practical evil of the 101. qualification. To that
qualification others had objected, on account of its
amount ; he also objected to its uniformity.—(Hear,
bear.) It sacrificed the high interests above it, and the
interests below it. If it were a proper franchise for
Leeds, that proved it would be improper for Greenwich.
—(Bear, hear.) The highest were excluded from all in-
fluence, and the lowest from all franchise. He knew that
pot-wallopers and such persons held themselves to be re-
presentatives of their class, and in the present system the
high and the low found they possessed a share of the re-
presentation. All places, indeed, were not represented,
but all classes were under the old system.—(Hear, hear.)l

Under the new all places would lie represented, but not
all classes.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill would establish an
aristocracy of 101. voters.—(Hear, and a laugh.)., It
was no slight advantage for a poor man to suppose that
he was represented by the Member for Preston or Ponte-
fract, and was not excluded for all time. It was not wise
to establish a single uniform right. It excluded both the
highest and the lowest. It lopped off the head and feet
of the body politic.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. anti Learned
Gentleman had stated that no other Constitution was ever
like this; and that therefore the results of this new Con- '
stitution could not be known. But with great deference
to that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he thought there bad
been Constitutions like it, which strengthened the view he
and the Learned Gentleman lost of this present plan. The
French Constitution, which was accepted by Louis XVI.,
was like this. That Constitution struck out the nobles, and
excluded the peasants. It cut off the highest and the lowest,
and based itself on the middle classes, and deceived the ex-
pectations of those who demandel it. What was the re-
sult? The Nobles left the capital and took refuge in the
country, or fled from their native land, and became its
hostile invaders. And what did the lower orders do ?
They rose in a mass, and swept away the Constitution.
The old aristocracy, which had been destroyed, had de-
served, and obtained the respect of the people ; but they
slighted and despised the new aristocracy of shopkeepers.—
(Hear.) They felt nothing of the new aristocracy but its
burthens ; it had no stability—it shook froin its own
weight, and when resisted, fell. He knew that he was
touching what had been called an exhausted subject in re-
(erring to the French Revolution ; but the example was so
apt that he could not forbear to quote it. Another ex-
ample of such a Constitution was to be found in a country,
the history of which was not so much and closely studied
I as it deserved. The new Constitution to be made for this
country would be found to resemble the Constitution of a
• country that, under it hail been destroyed ; he alluded to
the Constitution of Poland.—(Hear ! and a laugh). The
r old political Constitution of that country was founded on
• an unmixed aristocracy of a middle class. Gentlemen
• might laugh ; but it was so close a resemblance, that pre-
, cisely the same proportion of voters were to be found in
; Poland, in proportion to the people, as the 101. voters
bore to the people of this country.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
That was a matter of arithmetic. In 1675, the population
of Poland was 5,000,000, and the number of voters was
120,000, which bore the same proportion to 5,000,000 as
500,000 voters, under the new Constitution, bore to our
20,000,000 of people. The monarchy of Poland was elective,
and if many of their nobles had not great wealth, they had
great power; they had all the privileges of a feudal aristo-
cracy, and possessed great power. The case was the same
in Poland as in England, If the House looked also to
the case of Spain, it would find that, under the Cons!,
the high and the low were excluded from their share of
political power. The great difficulty was, to combine
security of property with freedom of action ; this combinas
tion, which was not to be effected by an individual, was
here the growth of time; it was here attained, and why
should it be thrown down ? If it could be conferred
by a paper Constitution, why had it not been conferred by
the Constitutions which had been made ? And if not con-
ferred in other countries, could it be reasonably ex-
pected in this ? He remembered that Montesquieu said,
that a bad old law, to which the people were accustomed,
was better than a good new law. The old law was en-
grafted into the affections and habits of the people, while
the new law was nothing but parchment and ink. It had
no hold of the affections of the people, and they knew a
" breath could make it as a breath had made." Any
moderate Reform he might have been disposed to accept,
but from this measure he had nothing but apprehen.ions.
He was sure that it would expose the country to great
danger, and he could not look on it but with dismay. It
was said that the measure was to be final, but how could
that be hoped for, when it gave one Member to 2,000 per-
sons, two Members to 4,000, and in other cases gave only
one Member to 12,000, and two Members to 30,000 in-
habitants in other places ? There was in that no equality,
and could he no permanency. What answer could the
Ministers make to the Radicals ? On what principles
could they refuse to surrender more than by the present
Bill ? In the counties, too, they pretended to preserve
some kind of proportion, but they gave two Alembers
to the West Riding of Yorkshire, and two to the county
of Rutland. On what principle was this? He saw no
principle either of wealth or population which could dic-
tate such proceedings. It was said that objections on the
score of anomaly came with a bad grace from those who
opposed all change, and who condemned these anomalies,
when the only way to get rid of them was to make the
Bill more sweeping. But that argument was not well
founded, for that side of the House had laid down no
principle it had not followed out, while the Ministers had
laid down a principle which they had not followed out.—
It would have been possible to have brought forward a
plan of moderate Reform, which should not have involved
a principle of continual and further change. It might
have been founded on giving the franchise to a certain
number of large towns, and on striking off a number of
small boroughs. That might have been the beginning and
the end : and that might have been a final measure.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) Then when the Radic ils demanded
more, they might be told that nothing more was intended,
and that the principle acted on involved nothing more.—
The Government, however, had adopted a large general
principle, and had no right to complain of others having
followed out their proposition. It had been objected to
the present borough system that certain persons possessed
the power of nominating the Members of that House;
but what could be said of the city of Chester, in which
nomination always prevailed? What would be said of
the one Member for the county of Derby, and the two
Members for the county of Westmorland ? And what,
he would ask, would be said by the Radicals of other
counties, placed in the same situation by the new Bill, at
the time they were told that the system of nomination was
to terminate at once and for ever.—(Hear.) It was said,
that the 8,11 was to destroy all nomination, and it was
said its arrangements were to be final. The Noble Lord
who introduced the Bill declared, on the 21st of last March,
that he could not bring himself to support a measure
of Reform so extensive and so complete but that he was
convinced it would be final. But was it final ? Had the
Bill then introduced proved to be so ?—(Hear.) The
numberless changes introduced into it during the course of
their discussions, and the new Bill now introduced, was
his answer to the question.—(Hear hear.) They had been
told that the Bill would satisfy all, and put an end to the
discussions on the subject of the ballot. But when he
read in the Newpapers an address to the people of Leeds,
intimating that the question of ballot was postponed for
future consideration, what was his surprise may be ima-
gined by the House, when he found that address signed
Thomas Babington Macauley—(Hear, hear)—and that,
, too, after his Hon. Friend had been one of the foremost to
impress on the House the advantages of a final settlement
of the question ?—(Hear.) His Hon. Friend (Mr. Ma-
cauley) had told them, ton, in replying to the objections
raised against the attack made on the privileges of the
aristocracy, that no one thought of invading the rights of
the House of Lords, except some crazy radical in a corner ;
and yet, in a speech of that Hon. Gentleman, he had
found nearly the whole of its topics were turned into a
bitter attack on the House of Lords.—(Hear, hear.) This
was the way in which they were to expect the question to
be settled. These were specimens of what they must
look to as the consequences of carrying the Reform Bill.—
(Hear.) For his part he had now done. He had humbly
attempted to discharge his duty to that House and to his
country : and at the latest moment of his life he would
reflect with pleasure on having formed one of those who
raised their voice in favour of a House of Commons which
be deeply feared he was destined to reverence much more
thap any of its successors, and of having honestly and boldly
taken this course, which, in his conscience, he believed to
be the right one—a course which he had deliberately cho-
sen, and he hoped stedfastly maintained.—(Cheers.)
Mr. T. B. MACAULEY hoped that, as he had been
personally alluded to by hie Noble Friend, he might, in the
first place, be permitted to take a course not often very
agreeable to the House, and say a very few words respect-
ing himself. His Noble Friend had alluded to his opinions
about the ballot. Now he positively denied having said a
word in that House about the ballot. Not one syllable
about the ballot ever crossed his lips; and the reason was,
that his opinions on that subject had been gradually
formed, and were therefore not brought forward. He had
never, indeed, considered that question as one of paramount
importance : and he would have abstained from bringing
it under consideration until those circumstances arose
which were beyond his controul, and which would not
permit it to be delayed. Applying himself now to the Bill,
he would say, that it was founded, in his opinion, on pre-
cisely the same principles as those of the last ; and even
if there were some alterations of which he could not en-
tirely approve, he would say that, if giving consent to
them had the effect of promoting conciliation, and secur-
ing the end they had in view, lie, for one—for the sake of
the trade of the country—for the sake of public peace and
public prosperity—was anxious that they should abandon
all minor differences, so that the Bill might as speedily as
possible pass into a law.—(Hear, hear.) In justice, how-
ever, to that House, anti to all who supported the Bill of last
session, he must add, that he found no cause for that ex-
ultation respecting the terms of the present Bill in which
some Members opposite had indulged ; but in which his
Noble Friend (Mahon) possessed too much taste and dis-
cretion to join.—(Hear.) They had been told, that by

dmitting the present Bill to be better than the last, they
were pronouncing a severe censure on the majority
which carried it through that House. They were told that
the deepest gratitude was due to the other Nlemberm of that
House which had afforded them an opportunity of recon-
sidering their decision. They were taunted with having
abandoned their opinions and changed their principles, by
those whose magnanimity, or at least their discretion,
should have deterred from such a proceeding.—(Hear.)
He (Mr. Macauley) remembered an Opposition which had
taken a far different tone. He remembered an Opposition
which, after labouring on for years—after seeing every plan
and every suggestion outvoted by the Government, raised
no shout of triumph—(Hear, hear)—rejoiced with no un-
generous shout of exultation, when they saw all their re-
commendations justified by the adoption of the Govern-
inent.—( Hear.) That Opposition was content to see those
who came in at the eleventh hour receive the reward due
to those who had toiled in the heat of the day.—(Hear.)
There was a time when the Noble Lord (Russell), and
the Right Honourable Baronet (Peel), occupied very
different positions ; that in the course of a single day the
whole of the views of the Government were changed with
respect to the Test and Corporation Acts. Did the Noble
Lord, or any one who sat on his side of the House, utter
one word about Palinodes—(Hear, hear)—or praise his
own wisdom by sneering at the course adopted by his op-
ponents ?—(llear, hear.) He felt no sorrow nor ex-
pressed no regret, when he saw the glory due to Romilly
and to Grattan transferred to less glorious champions--
(Hear, hear.) That Noble Lord made it no matter of
taunt that Government had adopted the plans of the Op-
position. He did not blame those for not reading their re-
cantation, whose names will go down to posterity remem-
bered for nothing, save a whole life of recantation.—
, (Hear, hear.) But he (Mr. Mecauley) would say there
was no cause for triumph. The Bill, it was true, was a
better Bill.—(A I iugh from the Opposition.) His own
opinion undoubtedly was that the Bill had been improved ;
but the other Bill would have been the better Bill had it
passed.—(A laugh.) Second thoughts were always pro..
verliially allowed to be best ; but there were times when
delay became worse than the hope of improvements. He
did not mean to deny that the first Bill had defects; but
was there no crisis which made it dangerous to delay a
settlement of the question ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was
there no evil in having, for nearly two years, the whole
business of a great nation suspended or delayed, on ac-
count of that Bill ? Was there no dander in allowing the
heart of a great people to sink tinder hope deferred ? The
second Bill was an amendment 9f the first; the first would
have been superior had it had passed, because it was the
first, and because they might then have had some prospect
of securing a reconciliation between the supporters of the
Bill and their opponents. From the second Bill, he con-
fessed plainly, he did not venture to hope so much, for he
feared that the remembrance of the late unhappy division
would long continue to rankle in the hearts of the people.
—(Hear.) It is said, however, that they should not legis-
late in times of excitement. Let those be answerable for
the consequences of that, who, when the people were not
excited, refused even to entertain the question of Reform.
—(Hear, hear.) If they were to adopt the arguments of
these persons, or to follow in their footsteps, they would
proclaim, that when the people were noisy it was unsafe
to Reform, and when the people were quiet they would
consider it unnecessary. He knew the evils of legislating
in dines of excitement. He was sensible it produced
errors, and had many defects ; but prudent men were
compelled to reform fast, because bigots would not reform
early—(Hear, hear)—to reform boldly, because bigots
would not reform temperately.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The
former Government would not walk, the present Govern-
ment must therefore run.—(Cheers and laughter from
the Opposition.) If they had reformed gradually, their
successors might have been now reforming gradually;
but they were compelled to run, because their prede-
cessors would not move at all.—(Cheers and laughter.)
He approved, be had said before, of the greater part of the
1111. He was sure it would diminish much the expence
of elections and give a sounder and better constituency.
It had been contended, however, that there would be no
opening left for the admission of men of talent into the
House through the means of the great towns. Now be
believed that the great towns had never shown any indif-
ference to the claims of men of talent. He would not
(although he might do so with safety) refer to the living
examples of the fact. He would speak solely of the dead ;
and lie found that the five largest town. in the empire—
that is, the towns which returned two Members, and had a
population above 50,000 by the census of 1821—he
found that these towns, which were Westminster, South-
wark, Liverpool, Bristol, and Norwich, had, at various
times, returned the following persons as their representa-
tives :—Burke, Fox, Sheridan, Windham, Tierney, Can-
ning, and Huskisson.—(Hear, hear.) fie would take the
first five of the boroughs in schedule A, or list five, or
any five of them, and he doubted much whether it would
be found that they could produce such a list of great
names as these five towns had selected for their represen-
tatives. He admitted that the expence of the contest for
these places might be most ruinous ; but that was the
strongest argument that could he produced in favour of the
Bill. The argument of the supporters of the present sys-
tem was, that one vice must he supported because another
was necessary ; that one abuse must be preserved to cor-
rect another abuse ; that because profusion and corruption
were necessary at Liverpool, nomination should prevail at
Gatton.—(Hear.) This, he contended, proved beyond
any thing else, the propriety of the changes they proposed,
and the good of not retaining a part of the abuses, but re-
moving them, on the contrary, altogether. Men might
sly they came into that House unshackled and free to ex-
ercise their discretion on every subject which came before
them. But was it nothing that they came with the badge
of servitude, which rendered all their actions suspicious,
and made their abilities worse than useless, and often pre-
sented the spectacle of an Ariel doing the drudgery of
Sycorax ?—(Hear, hear.) He believed, from all the inqui-
ries he had made, that the places which, under the ell
system, must be contested at an expense of 18,0001.,
would, under the new, be carried for 18001., and that
Manchester could be contested for the market price of Old
Sarutn.—(Hear-) He was not insensible to the excite-
ment which prevailed, nor to the danger which the rejec-
tion of the last Bill had so much increased. Whenever
there was great excitement, there would be some extrava-
gance. The contests of the Reformation had given birth
to the Anabaptists. The opponents of Star Chamber pro-
secutions, and the levying of ship-money, had raised up
those who overthrew the Monarchy ; and no one could deny
that the agitation of the Reform question had brought into
action a set of men whose opinions were at variance with
all government, all law, and all order—whose doctrines, if
carried into effect, would be a greater curse to the country
than a foreign conquest, and which must, in their working,
sweep away arts, commerce, manufactures, and science in
one common ruin.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said
of the extravagance of the expectations of the. people,
and of the credulity with which they listened to bad ad-
visers, and of the violence of language in which they in-
dulged. There were, however, among the Members of
that House, few who would acknowledge how querulous
they became when suffering under pain, and in sorrow.
It was a proverb in Scotland, that there is ill talking be-
tween the full and the fasting ; and it was scarcely fair
to blame the mechanic for inconclusive logic, when his
children were crying for bread.—(Cheers.) He had no
complaints to make against the working classes. Ile had
pleasure in seeing that they were to receive so large an ad-
dition to their constitutional privileges ; and if he with-
held all that they demanded, it was because he thought
that the remainder would not prove advantageous to
them. He admitted that the end of all Government was the
h w
happiness
of a:ls then
innlofotthepeople ; but he contended that the hap-
piness tobe obtained by insisting on the
doctrinesfulfil-
ment taught them at the present
of
conceiveproprietors
a prospect
in
srope favourct more
of
appalling Reform.
than
me-
ment by unprincipled and low-minded flatterers. That
property was in danger should be a reason for the union
of all
scarcelyHe
ouldclasses
that which society presented at this moment in England.
A narrow-minded,
pertinacious party above—an infuri-
ated multitude beneath; one eager to obtain possession of
power—the other willing to run any hazard to retain it ;
c
one looking on property as the only test of wisdom—the
other holding all property as an abuse; and both so utterly
ignorant of their own true interests, that he prayed God
the State might never experience the misery of the result
' of their coming into collision. Between both those par-
ties there stood, however, a third, far more powerful than
either, and destined, lie hoped, to save both from the
miseries of their infatuation or their extravagance—that
third party wnich had rallied round the supporters of the
first Reform Bill, and which, he believed, would rally
round the supporters of the second with equal zeal and
steadiness. To that party—the vast body of the intelli-
gent middle ceases—he looked with hope and confidence.
With the flower of the aristocracy at their head, and the
flower of the working classes at their back, that third
party declared that it is their will to have Reform, but
not revolution—that they are determined to restrain se-
dition, and that they will not suffer the rights of property
to be invaded—(Cheers)—to a termination, whether
happy or unhappy, it was plain the struggle must zioss.
speedily come, and all observation of the history of Eng-
land showed the propriety of a concession to the spirit of
its democracy, and that it has been regulated by laws as
fixed as that of motion and attraction. They were not to
look to the infancy, but to take the whole lifetime of 80-

ciety, and the history of England showed timr,
stages the yielding of the Government to the pr
society.—(Hear, hear ) The laws of villeinage
pressions of the Romish See and of the Church
land, the prerogatives of the Crown, the Censors'
Press, have given way ; and lastly, the abuses of re
Lion are now yielding to the !URIC irresistible pool
Stuarts had found it impossible to govern like the Ti
the vigour of Richelieu and all the craft of Maze
not have enabled Charles to aesume the power
teeth, and it was now utterly imposssible for the
sentative of the House of Brunswick to pursue tie
adopted at the accession of that family to the throe
controul of man over the political it orld was as'
that over the physical ; he who struggled age
course was borne along by its Dower—he whore
was crushed by its weight. It was not by abs°
by relative degrees of oppression that nations sett
to madness. That which was harmless in Engle
be destructive in Morocco. A Stamp Act, so hat
scarcely to be felt by the forefathers of the Purity
England an empire, and a system of government,
than that of Louis the MAI 6. but of the same ell'
persisted in by Louis X Vlth. deprived him of R
and his life. The history of England afforded, br
all the illustration which could be desired. The
went of Efz died' was better than that of IP
Eighth; the reign of Charles much more mild th
of Edward the Sixth, which was still referred'
content and exultatation ; but the superior milder"
rule could not save Charles from the scaffold.
comparisons with respect to the progress of society
opinions of the past and the present apply as much:
reign of Charles as to the present titne. If that P
had been fortunate in an adviser, in what languagt
he have addressed him? He would have told
reign that he did not deny the superior mildor°
role, and of the method of raising revenues, as el
with the reign of Elizabeth ; but although there al
no change in the form of Government, there all'
change in the opinions of the people, and it wee'
to yield to it. lie would have told him that he 0
et ange 1540 to 1640, and that though his subject'
have been happier had they remained children,
n iture had decreed them age, that their intelle
expanded with society, and it was no longer in hit
to amuse them with the trifles of their cradles, $f
them with the bugbears of their youth.—(Heat
He did not say the change would make them 1014
wiser, or better, but merely that society would t'
them to he made as they were, nor treated as o'4
—(Cheers.) This was the language a wise advierf„
have addressed to Charles, as a means of saving
that contest which led to his ruin.—(Loud cheer!'
so it was now. It was impossible to govern noel
eighteenth century in the same manner he h°
governed in the sixteenth. As a great ebsel,
taken place in society, so a great change rat',i
place in Government. It was impossible to br'y
opinions and the :feelings of men back to the t
which they were at former periods of our hiererl,o
greet change was inevitable. It might be dell',;
might be rendered bloody and destructive ; but
net be averted.—(Hear, hear.) The agitation
so long prevailed upon the subject could not Wit;
thing. The wishes of the people must be met b)
gislature, or the most disastrous consequences mutt
Whatever opposition might be made to it, Reforep
eventually be carried. True wisdom would
throw open the gates to a force, which would 0';
enter at a breach.—(Hear, hear.) Well would
that Constitution, which, however corrupted blf
was nevertheless one of the proudest works 01,
wisdom—one of the noblest blessings of which any,
could boast, instead of being left to be overturned b'
revolution, were repaired by pacific anti lawful no°,
(Loud cries of '‘ Hear.")
Mr. CROKER would not enter into a comPril,
the speech which the Hon. and Le irned Gen•lerar,
just made, with the speech which he had made ;
same subject upon a former occasion. He by ae
however, found fault with the change which bbd
ej
place in the language of the fleeourable and Learn
tleman. On the contrary, he hailed it with gre3li
faction. Undoubtedly the Hon. and Learned Gee'
had spoken ;n a very different tone on that night, ir°
tone in which he had addressed the House formed'',
(Mr. Croker) was glad to hear it ; he was willing,
ceive the alteration as a proof of the better opiniec
sounder sentiments which the Hon. and Learned
man had imbibed during the last two months. d
last occasion, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
a language utterly subversive of all order in sunsets'
the course he then pursued he had now retreated;
(Mr. Croker) thanked him, and hoped that others
benefit by the amendment. The Hon. and Learnd
tleman had begun by accusing his Right Hon. ',tied
having acted in a manner unworthy of himself, in el
ing his gratification at the changes which his ith
Government had been compelled to make in the Or
and at the same time withholding his approbatioel
measure so changed. That approbation would ce
been withheld if his Ilajeety's Government had she,
desire to conciliate with effect—if they had slicr,
disposition to give up the obnoxious principles of
sure. Had they changed any of those principles? P'ti
parallel, therefore, which the Hon. and Learned Gee
had attempted to draw between the opposition to ,
sent, and the opposition to a former Gavel-I:ureic'
not hold. He would tell the Hon. and Learned
man why the opponents of the measure had a rigbt,
proach the authors of it for their conduct with verb
the former Bill. The opponents of the Bill broor
the last Session of Parliament had objected to thel
ciple of the measure. When that Bill was in the
mittee they said to its authors, " If you mean Wt
your own principle into effect, you are not taking
to do so; you are showing partiality ; and doing laitio
The antagonists of the Bill opposed it in the CO
not on their own principles, but on the principle',
authors. In the Committee they opposed it, I.oi
general principle of the Bill itself, but on the priecd
the individual boroughs which it was attempted to.
of their rights. The opponents of the Bill had 01;
triumph—the triumph of honesty, of integrity,
constitutional doctrine—that there was not 003
question in which they had divided in the Cont°,'.
the la,t Bill which the Noble Lord had not adopted]
present.—(hear, hear.) It had been asked why Oleg
of Lords had not removed what they considered
jectionable parts of the last Bill, and sent it Welch,
House so amended. But was it to be forgotten tee
Noble Lord by whom that Bill had been introda
said that no alteration whatever would be allele')
made in it? On the very first case which Of
considered in the Committe, that of Appleby, the ;
of the Bill had been unable to deny that that boe°?'
under the same rules as Caine; and yet upon e
the clause remained unaltered. If in that 1-101 i
had occupied days and weeks in discussion, 11
had been unable to prevail upon the authors of the,'
make a single alteration in it, what benefit cool 't
been expected from discussion in the other House,/ tle,7-' 48
him recall one circumstance to the memory of the
ta F
Let it be remembered that the opponents of the 0,1,0) ,444„, f
tended that, according to the principles of the 'he -t"
t °
h 1 1441).014k
the Bill, Aldborough ought not be in schedule 13,
it ought to be in schedule A. On a division, howee,ror)
numbers were, 149 to 61 for retaining it in sebevielf,',
tpdhe Hot
ern
Yet now, Aldborough was in schedule A. —(Healyv
The same was the case with Chippenham, with Citt ilt)ithe
mouth, Sec. On these respective boroughs the or? 'll4 1!1
of the Bill unsuccessfully divided; yet now the C,4llght
Lord bad adopted all their recommendations. Theftoi
and Learned Gentleman said, he did not like thew, l'teeZetern
Bill quite so well as the last. He (Mr. Croker)
fif. ,fe kr
surprised at that; for there was one important d' or° e„,
between the two measures; namely—that in the tch,d-witen
s of pot etr,ned
Bill, Caine was in schedule B.—(Hear, and
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman also contesdellte° h141;8iller
any amendment in the Bill was more than coati:ite°
lanced try the delay in giving the people sati'4loll,lr the ,}4'
" I would rather (said the Hon. and Learned
Wyr let' hhe it
°it
man) have had a worse measure, but a measure iles
which the people were entirely satisfied." Did I' te,-°,,nd,u
and Learned Gentleman mean to say that the alter; tiss
in the Bill were merely alterations of expression° yr
they were, not vital and consequential ? When the er, deloane•
Bill was first introduced, it contained forty-ei% f'fp, 144
iL tit(' in Would it he believed, that in that schedule alone'
„Nt t
nine changes had been made? In forty-six $
there had been forty-nine changes! Some plitc°o4lre Item
been put out, some had been put in, some had heet,e 01,' a
newed.—(Hear, hear.) If anybody doubted the iscot
was ready to go over the list and prove it. The l'/,; at
°f ail tt
and Learned Gentleman contended, that the 'mace
vernment were not to blame for the extent to whie,'
.4•settld uBC
hail gone in their proposition for Reform ; but that et 41, root
were to blame who had refused to move the subject ;1/:tiloold
ri!.•
rt
—that their refusal to walk had compelled the prese:i ii to Strain
vernmentiii, he said,t am asked
or When the
why
in this introdui
iti to
bleL‘rrd
Bill, thsta
a larger amount of Reform than on any former °Weft/gist, jeer i
have submitted to the consideration of Parliament, I, lel 'tee tilltt°
no hesitation in saying that it is because we saw th,s, soul •rt_ '
first move was the whole question, and that it wool', 'het ral
vain to atteinec to satisfy the eablic mind by anti S4ll:,eri;'
short of that whole." Now the reason why lie ki tliteLln
Croker) art his friends opposed the measure weer tb, Ns Co
was the fast step of a career, the end of which 00

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