The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-30 00:00:00

were those to which he had thus alluded. He therefore
not only on account of the House, but on account of the
people of Ireland, must refuse his assent to the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. Nothing could be
more dangerous than to commence a system of so much
importance unless they were able to follow it up. No-
thing could be more inconsistent with the moat obvious
dictates of prudence than to enter without due considera-
tion upon a course from which there was no escape. If
the Hon. Gentleman were prepared to introduce any Bill
—( Hear, hear, from several parts of the House)—he had
no bubt it would receive the most attentive consideration
of the House. He was the more anxious that the Hon.
Member should bring forward some specific measure, for
then some opportunity would be afforded of judging what
the Hon. Gentleman's views were, and what were the
means which he proposed for carrying them into effect,
but at present the House and the country were left utterly
in the dark. He could not conclude without, however,
expressing his persuasion that an opinion in favour of the
poor laws was every day gaining ground in Ireland, and
that to an extent which no Government could or ought to
oppose.
Mr. LEADER, after dwelling upon the melancholy
condition of Ireland, adverted to a variety of returns, for
the purpose of showing that the consumption of the vari-
ous articles of luxury had been gradually decreasing in
Ireland ; that she had five millions of taxes to pay, and
two churches to support that were grinding the poor in-
habitants into the earth. The Hon. Gentleman then en-
larged upon the miseries which the people of Ireland were
daily and hourly enduring, and particularly called the at-
tention of the House to the great services which Ireland
did to the other parts of the empire. He was persuaded
that the only mode of procuring relief for the people of
Ireland was thus to make the cause of their suffering fami-
liar to the great Council of the nation. Passing then from
the causes of its suffering to the means of its relief, he
would say, that he anticipated considerable benefit from
the operation of the National Loan Fund. He thought a
per centage upon the property of absentees would be highly
beneficial, at the same time that he thought even the re-
sident gentry ought to be made to contribute. Added to
these, much good might be derived from the immediate
expenditure of Grand Jury presentments.
Lord MORPETH would oppose the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman opposite, as the subject was already under
the consideration of Government, as the matter was not
then brought forward in a tangible shape, and as the adop-
tion of any such resolution might hereafter very much
embarrass the House.

Mr. S. RICE objected to the introduction of poor laws
in Ireland, considering that it would produce a mass of
evil ; and he protested that he and the other Irish proprie-
tors who thought with him rejected the proposition in
favour of this system not from any selfish feeling.
Mr. LEFROY said he would not consent to follow blind-
folded the Hon. Member (Mr. Sadler), who had set for-
ward the principle by which be was guided in so broad and
vague a manner. He doubted if poor laws could be properly
td ministered in Ireland. There were no large farmers there;
ind thus the individuals who might be one day administer-
ing the laws, might the next be the object of their bounty.
It was, he admitted, a just principle, that the richer class
should provide for the maintenance of the poor, but not
after a manner which would have the effect of reducing
themselves to beggary.
Sir J. BURKE thought the time was come, and he be-
lieved that this was the opinion of the most intelligent and
well-informed people of Ireland, that the time was come
for introducing poor laws into Ireland. He should, there-
fore, he ready to vote for the resolution of the Hon. Me►n-
ber.—(Cries of question.)
Mr. MORE O'FARRELL was of opinion that all pro-
perty in Ireland should be taxed for the poor as in Eng-
land. He did not comprehend why there should be one
law for England and another for Ireland. The poor Irish,
seeing a different law when they came here, lost all respect
for the law in Ireland. The want of such a law had cast
a stigma on that country. It was not possible that the
principles taught by the Church of Ireland could be re-
spected in Ireland when large revenues were extracted
from the people for its support without an adequate return.
At the same time he had no more wished to make any en-
croachment on Church property than on the property of
,he land-owners. He supported the motion.
Mr. BENETT wished to see a modified system of poor
laws adopted for Ireland, and this was the prayer of a pe-
tition he had to present from Chippenham. The pe-
titioners complained justly, that the cheaper raised pro-
duce of Ireland met their produce in all the markets
of this country, and they wished the two countries to be
placed on an equal footing.—(Question, question.) He did
not, however, expect or wish to see the poor laws, as they
were now administered in England, introduced into Ire-
land.—(Question.) They might, however, adopt the
principles of those laws. The House heard the Hon.
Member with much impatience, who concluded by de-
elating that he would support the motion, and that the
poor had a claim to relief out of the church lands.—
(Loud calls for question and adjourn took place, when the
Hon. Member resumed his seat.)
An HON. MEMBER. moved the adjournment.
Lord ALTHORP wished not to sacrifice another day,
and if the question were adjourned, he should propose that
it should be adjourned till a distant day.
An Holz. MEMBER thought every Irish Member should
have an opportunity to speak. He proposed that the de-
bate be adjourned to Monday.
Lord ALTHORP had no wish to prevent Hon. Mem-
bers from speaking ; but wished it to be on some distant
,lay; and he should move that the question be adjourned
till that day month, —(Loud calls of " Adjourn, and go
on.")
An HON. MEMBER declared he would support the
original motion by Mr. Sadler.
Mr. J. SMITH had witnessed two Irish famines, and
would support the original motion. He had never heard
the lion. Member for Aldborough propose that the Eng-
lish Poor Laws should be introduced into Ireland ; if he
had, be would oppose him. He only wanted to pledge
the Parliament to do something. The English nation had
twice relieved the Irish when in a state of starvation, but
he believed it would not do so again. The last time that
was requisite it hung fire. The Corporation of the Bank
of England, which was generally very liberal, had refused
to contribute on the last occasion, and so had other bodies.
If again a famine should occur, an insurrection would ge-
nerally take place ; and if ever an insurrection were jus-
tified, it would be that. Reserving to himself the right of
opposing any plan which might be brought forward, he
should support the original motion.—(Cries of question !
and adjourn.)
Colonel O'GRADY was surprised to hear, after all that
had been said and written on the subject, that any doubt
should now be entertained of the propriety of introducing
poor laws into Ireland. Such a measure would make all
property contribute to the support of the poor which the
landlords had created. A meeting of the county with
which he was connected (Limerick) had taken place, and
decided on the propriety of introducing poor laws into
Ireland. He wished the Hon. Member to withdraw the
motion, and at once to bring in a Bill, to which he promised
his best support.—(Hear, hear, calls of " adjourn.")
Mr. JAMES GRATTAN approved of the course taken
by the Hon. Member for Aldborough. He thought poor
laws for Ireland would prevent emigration into England.
lie knew that the Wall of his county, who were well off,
staid at home, and that was a more decisive fact for Hon.
Members than all the theories of the lion. Member for
Ashburton.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWN was desirous that the
Hon. Member for Aldborough would withdraw his reso-
lution, and bring in a Bill.
Mr. RUTHVEN highly approved of the resolution.
Mr. SADLER made a brief reply. He felt himself
under the necessity of adhering to his resolution ; and
would rather that it should be met by a direct negative
than by the previous question.
Lord ALTHORP observed, that he was not prepared
to give a direct negative to the Hon. Gentleman's resolu-
tion, although at the same time he was not prepared to
afirm it.—The House then divided.
For the previous question 6l
Again4t
Majority in favour of Ministers
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
at half-past Two o'clock this morning the House adjourned.

The following names have been sent to us as forming
part of the Minority in the division on Mr. Sadler's motion

last night :--
Blackney, W. Grattan, H.
Brabazon, Lord Hill, Lord G. A.
Burke, Sir J. Hort, Sir W.
Callaghan, D. lio,AArdt.H.
Chaytor, W. R. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Cradock, S. Killeen, Lord
Curteis, FL B. King, Hon. B.
Hoyle, Sr J, 3,T, Lambert, H.
Forbes, Sir C. Loader, N, P.
Gordon, R. M'Namara, W, N.
Grattan, James Mullins, F,

O'Connell, M.
O'Connor Don
O'Ferrall, R. M.
Ossory, Earl of
"'micas°, J. S.
Rumbolci, C. E.
flutilven, E. S.
Trench, Colonel
Walker, C. A.
Wey land, J.
Wyse, T.

Mr. CliAnwicK, who intends offering him-
self as a candidate to represent the West Riding of York-
shire, so soon as the Reform Bill passes, sums up his pre-
tensions and qualifications thus :—" I am no man of
family ; I am no man of business ; I have never been used
to it ; but I can shout, laugh, hawk, and spit, and cough,
s,stialaomnutepti,dngfl for an
hoot, and huaza; and what more can be
v
rkaen. , l‘whoin' 1d? halvedoasnomtudeohubeffteebtutinmtyhestrou psiengoi
Conamom as most speeches Generally have."