The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-20 00:00:00

question, but the low tone in which he spoke measure, and even voted against it, and also in another
and the noise in the House rendered it impos- plac, the Committee, to which her Majesty s Govern-
sible to catch even their purport in the gallery. tnent had submitted this plan, had also expressed
After reading some other extracts, which were quite in- their opposition to it; in their report. The witnesses
audible in the gallery, the Hon. Gentleman concluded by brought by the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) were
proposing his motion, the House having become im- opposed to it, and the officials, the Poor-law Commis-
patient, and several Hon. Members having called loudly sioners, men who from their office might be considered
for a division. to be favourable to any proposition of the Government,
Mr. LABOUCIIERE hoped the,Gallant Officer would expressed their dissatisfaction of such a plan. Every
not construe it into any disrespec to him if he merely evidence was against it and the chief commissioner,
briefly alluded to i what he had said. The question when he he beard of such a measure, did not wait to be
lay in a narrow compass. He was disposed to admit with called on to give his opinion about it, but knew it to be
the Gallant Officer that the burden put upon the merchant so severe and unjust that ho immediately resigned his
seamen service with respect to tonnage was a very heavy office. Under these circumstances, he thought that a
grievance, and it was one which they had a right to Committee should be appointed to investigate into the
claim exemption from. There was no lack of lads for whole of that question, so that if it be found that Irish
the service. It was notorious that there were 10,000 property is not taxed according to a fair and just amount
or H,OOO more apprentices than the service required. that a suitable tax be imposed on it. He contended
It was, therefore, unnecessary for the House to enforce that the evils of that country were mainly attributable
any such regulation as that referred to in the motion of to the conduct of Government, and he should at all
the Gallant Officer. He hoped the House would not times oppose them When they pursued suck a
agree to the clause. course as they were now adopting. His amend-
Mr. HERRIES recommended the Gallant Officer to merit was, that an income and property-tax be as-
withdraw his motion, as on Monday an opportunity sessed on incomes and property in Ireland not liable
would be afforded for the ample discussion of the matter, to income and property-tax under 11 and 12 Victoria,
Indeed,he hoped the House would then reject the measure, chap. 8 ; but the Noble Lord's (Lord J. Russell)
which was so framed that it was incapable of amend- proposition was that the 100,0001. should be advanced
meat. for the relief of distress in some districts of Ireland,

Captain HARRIS withdrew his motion.
Mr. ANDERSON rose to move that in clause 1, after
the word " deficient," to insert " and that any seaman
quitting any vessel whatever in order to enter her Ma-
jesty's naval service, and being received into such service,
shall he exempt from any penalty or forfeiture
to which they would otherwise be liable as deserters."
The Hon. Member proceeded to state several instances
which had been brought under his notice of the hard-
ships and inconveniences resulting from seamen leaving
merchant vessels when abroad and entering
the navy ; among others, he stated one which
bad happened to a friend of his own, in the
case of the ship Anne Roberts, of 440 tons burden, bound
to Hong Kong. Eleven able-bodied seamen belonging to
that vessel volunteered to join her Majesty's ship Lydia.
They bad received bills for wages and had gone ou shore
to have them cashed, when they joined the Lydia.
The ship was in consequence very much " distressed;"
the captain could not proceed to sea without those men,
and he ran considerable risk of losing his vessel. He
thought that it was in the highest degree desirable that
a state of things like that should be put an end
to; and he submitted the clause which he had
moved would have that effect. He was an advocate for a
change in the navigation-laws, but on grounds different
from those on which many Hon. Members sought their
repeal.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion,
Mr. LABOUCHERE did-not pretend to say that
the system of manning the navy was not susceptible of
improvement; but he did say it would be inexpedient to
endeavour in one and the same measure to amend that
system, and at the same time the commercial naviga-
tion of this great country. He was sorry that
any Member should have thought it necessary
tor clog the measure before the House with amendments
of that description, which would involve the Hu use in
endless discussions. Ile would vote against the amend-
ment.
Mr. HUME admitted that the impediment referred
to by the Honourable Gentleman ought to be removed,
but he thought there was a good deal in what
had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentle-
man who had just sat down, and tie would
therefore suggest that this motion should be post-
poned till the question of manning the navy came more
tormally before the House.
Mr. HAWES entirely agreed with what had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Montrose. There could be no
doubt that the shipping interest was very heavily bur-
dened, but until these navigation-laws, which the shipping
interest fancied were so much protection to them were
repealed, those burdens would never be removed. But
let the House pass this Bill, and the shipowners them-
selves would be the first to seek redress, and those
who were Free•traders the first to concede it ;
but he thought it decidedly inexpedient to moot
the question of their burdens at the present moment.
Ile hoped, therefore, the amendment would be with-
drawn.
After a few words from Captain BERKELEY,
Mr. ANDERSON said, in deference to the opinion of
his friends, he would withdraw the motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, with regard to the fol-
lowing amendment of the Right Hon. Member for the
university of Oxford, he begged to say that he should
have no objection to the first, but he most oppose the
second part—Provided always, and be it enacted, that it
shall be lawful for her Majesty in Council, upon an ad-
dress or joint address, as the case may be, from the Legis-
lative Council, or Council and Assembly, or proper
legislative authority, of any British possession, praying
her Majesty to authorise the conveyance of goods
and passengers from one part of such possession to
another part of such possession in other than
British ships, to declare, by order in Council, that
such conveyance shall be authorised accordingly, in
such terms and under such conditions as to her
rf ajosty shall seem good. And be it enacted, that
upon a like address from the proper legislative
authority of any two or more colonies, which her Ma-
jesty in Council shall declare to be neighbouring colo-
nieuf or the purposes of this Act, praying her Majesty
to place the trade between such colonies upon the
footing of a coasting trade, it shall be lawful for her
Majesty, by order in Council, to declare that it shall be
deemed and taken to be a coasting trade accordingly,
for all intents and purposes: provided always, that the
privi;eges conferred by this Act upon foreign ships shall
not be diminished by any such order in Council, unless
by regulations which shall be equally applicable to
Britsh ships.
Mr. GLADSTONE acceded to the proposil of the
Right Honourable Gentleman.
The proviso was accordingly introduced, and the other
parts of the Bill having been agreed to, the report was
adopted.

should be secured on the assessed income of the rate
in aid. Ile mould he in favour of having that loan se-
cured by the income and property tax; but at the same
time did not see any charm or reason.why 70. in the
pound in property tax, or 1501. per year in the income
tax, should be established as a standard in Ireland, par-
ticularly as there was a precedent for the contrary in
Scotland, in the case of property tax. He believed that
property in Ireland was not fit for such a tax, and should
read an extract from the speech of thy, Noble Lord in the
introduction of the income tax for England. He (Lord
J. Russell) then used these words as applying to Ireland,
" That by extending this tax to Ireland. you would
check her efforts at prosperity, and that by the check-
ing her you injure not only Ireland but also England
and Scotland." The Noble Lord said Ireland was not fit
to bear that taxation, and he (Mr. Herbert) believed
that she was at present ten times worse than she was
last year, when the Noble Lord 'adverted to her in
those terms. He wished to exempt from this rate the
farmers, who are the principal sufferers, and totally dif-
fered from the resolutions at a great meeting held in
1847 in Dublin, which proved the universal distress of
Ireland. That meeting suggested the propriety of an
income and propert-tax in aid of local taxation, but he
wished for a general taxation in Ireland for local pur-
poses, and considered that every tax for every purpose
should be paid into the treasury of the Exchequer, as •
being a firm supporter of the Union. It had been said
that this is a landlord question, and the Hon. Member for
the city of Dublin stated in the House that the objeet of
it was to shift the burden from the shoulders of the
landlords to the honest and hardworking tradesmen;
but to that he should sae that there was no proposition
to exempt the landlords, and it there was he would be
one of the first to oppose such a plan. On whom would
this burden fall? It would fall on that class that are
already ground down—on the unfortunate farmers who
are using every exertion to keep their holdings—on men
who are nut in a position to bear that burden, and who
are daily emigrating in consequence of their inability to
meet their expenses. Nor was the industrious tradesman,
who has invested his little capital in building, fit to bear
such a taxation. He hoped that his proposition would-
not be rejected, because there was no machinery fur car-
rying it out, as the poor•law measure bad been carried
out without any machinery whatever. He should next
leer to the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert
Peel), which he and the people of Ireland looked upon
as a comment upon the do-nothing policy of the present
Government, and which raised u hope in the minds of
that people that the Ministry would not long continue in
office; for the laissez faire, laissez passer policy of the
Noble Lord's speech, in the beginning of this session,
created but one opinion, and that was—that nothing
good could come from that Government.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he (Mr. H.) supported.
that policy.
Mr. HERBERT said, that he, with eleven other Irish
Members, to whose political principles he was opposed,
had determined to protest against the conduct of Go-
vernment respecting Ireland. He should say that Go'
vernment were the cause of the evils of Ireland. He
was grateful for the grants made to Ireland, but he
contended that the responsibility of their not effecting
good did not rest upon the Irish or the Irish gentry, be-
cause the Government had disregarded their suggestions.
He assured the House, that he was fully resolved not to
withdraw his amendment, now that the Noble Lord had
not stated what taxes he proposed to impose, and he
should, therefore, conclude by moving the imposition of
an income and property tax in Ireland.
Mr. F: FRENCH said, he regretted that the Hon.
Gentleman should have thought proper to persevere with
his amendment in opposition to the opinions of the OW
jority of the Irish Members. He could nut think that
Ireland was in a position to bear any increased taxation.
He denied that the Irish Members were bound to suggest •
a substitute for the plan proposed by the Government
lie objected to the rate in aid upon principle. He also
contended, that Ireland paid an equivalent for the in-
come-tax levied in this country.—(Bear.) It should.be
recollected that out of the thirteen millions of rental in
Ireland, eight millions were spent in England which was
subject to the income-tax, but for which Ireland did not;
get credit. They were asked why they had not repel('
the million advanced to them for the purpose of building •
their workhouses, when similar advances made in Eng'
land for the same purpose were repaid? In England"
this money was advanced to carry out an improvement .
of the law, and was advanced at their request; but ie
Ireland the law was objected to, and the advances were
not asked for by them, but by the Poor-law Comtnis-
sioners. So obnoxious was 'this law, that the whole of
the army and constabulary in Ireland were maintained te
uphold the poor-law.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said they were placed between
two alternatives of choosing between two burdens.
It was asked was England to go on for ever making'
grants to Ireland; but they should take into the spies'
tion the fact that Ireland has been exposed to gi
famine unpredecedent. d in the history of modern,
times. They had for forty-nine years robbed Ireland'
and now in a season of distress, when they hs.,
exhausted her resources, they taunted them with then
poverty. If they were as generous and liberal as thsi
claimed to be, they ought to be happy to contribute t)
the relief of her distress. It was most inconsistent now
to propose a new tax, when, even before the famine tools
place, she was too poor to bear it. He denounced the.
'horrible and hideous process of evictions now going Oti
in Ireland at that moment, but he would not then go into
details. The Hon. Member who put forward the Pre;
sent proposition was not, he said, prepared to conten'"
'that Ireland contributed her just share of the taxsttt i
of the country, but others were prepared to do so,
he allowed them, or had he not brought forward iti•
motion, against the wishes of the great majority of tiae
Irish Members. The Hon. Member for Buelongbac•
shire said, very properly, the other night, that Iris s„,
absentee proprietors, mortgagors, and others, paidwo
come-tax; and stated so most correctly, for though n,
returns could be got of the amount, he believed it 0,111.
at that moment 250,0001., in addition to 65 0001. Os,
quit rents and other matters. Why should n°
Ireland get credit for these sums of money? Why fl 06
get credit for duties paid on articles in England whieh
ct
were afterwards consumed in Ireland, and all of whi
he believed, would in the aggregate amount to 700,00 u,..
or 200,0001. more than that sought for by the rate t;
aid. He denounced the Hon. Member for Kerry f°,l
bringing forward such a motion as he introduced; °o,
although he did it in a less obnoxious manner than !10.4.
expected, yet it did not do away with the very seri°og,
objections against it. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) bad r‘o,
as yet given any support to the rate in aid measure, wet
cause be did not wish to press too heavily on the polo
ratepayers; tut now there was no choice left him- do
found himself driven into a corner, and although so
should give the measure his vote that night he should 14
so with a firm conviction of its utter inutility. He wouss
vote for it, however, in consequence of the frightful sY 0
tom of evictions which was going on, as might be sr,ce
from the accounts given in the Cork and Lime,r_lx
00
papers. The Hon. Gentleman then read extracts 'kil,
letters written by the Rev. Mr. Flannelly and 511' the
both of Mayo in the western parts of Ireland, giving is
most horrible accounts of the privations which thepeoP
suffered, and of the deaths which occurred from stain
tion. Coerced by those horrible details which he r 0
thus read for the House, he should support the moll°
of the Government.
h°
Captain JONES considered that he had only lye
choice between two modes of taxation, that proposed
0.
the Government as a rate in aid, and that by his o°o
Friend; and he had no hesitation in giving the lattere,
preference. As a representative of the county of Der rft'
he received a communication from the grand jerl'aid
which they declared their disapprobation of a rate in jo•
although willing to bear any burden which could h°oot
vied in a more equitable manner. If the Governor oe
persisted in levying their rate in aid measure, he bad
hesitation in saying, that they would, by doing so, en' ltf
ger the whole measure of a poor-law in Ireland, 0! •00
practical working, in consequence of the opPn,ssilloo
which must arise to the payment of any rate whatu.„os,
He was a warm advocate for the poor-law, and it se
therefore, be was anxious that nothing should be done
mar its proper working. f
bi°
Mr. IL FOX should support the amendment to.
Hon. Friend. In the union of Longford, where his PI
perty was situate, the rate in aid amounted at the!' lye
meat, in support of the poor of Connaught, to 3d. LI/obits
pound. That arose from the tact that the poor inPoca
ants of the western parts of Ireland trues to
eastwards, through Longford, on their wsY,l5Ol
England—but while they "had the power in Enpopc,
to send them back, no such authority existed in 1•414 of
ford; and thus were they burdened for the sup Peer
parties who were properly chargeable on unions nise to,
naught.—(Ht ar.) If the rate in aid were, therefor 'a et
• ea
be levied as proposed by the Government—lost wit
its being 6d. it would be 9d. on him, and that, too,
out any remedy whatever. He denounced it as %Jett
to compel other parties to pay for the poor of Coon'o the
or in support of the unions or that province, bees° osore
present poverty was brought about in a great eletsosi
by the misconduct of landlords, the misconduct _eg,
who administered the poor law, and other cauar. r
which he should not then more particularly refitoses,g,
his opinion an income-tax was more preterable, 1111 011,
it was more just, than a rate in aid; and he -gietr'
t`terefore, support the amendment of his Hon. 'O3OOO/0
Now, from whatever source those sums ot pieta
were to be derived, he wished to know how thgtresae4
'to be expended. The plan of relieving 7.1,05te',..
unions had, he believed, already caused the arseer,
demoralization ; and that would be continue_dret_i.,toit:
of money, and assistance of the kind proposed, did!,
to be given. The way he believed in which 1"49g
cspuolttys,
WI they W(110 willing ty btiut up tuu
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