The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-11 00:00:00

that the Lords, in the principle they have laid down, have
tal:en the opinion of the minority of this House.—( Loud
cheers.) It is a large minority—a considerable toh.ority;
Gentlemen will not dispute, I think, that it is a respectably
minority.—(Opposition cheers.) The Lord, have taken One
view of the case, the Commons have taken anot her view ; ant
we are told that a collision is inevitable—we are told tint a
collision must come, and we are threatened with the dreadful
consequences that must certainly ensue from it. Now. Sir,
nobody can estimate more highly than I do the immense im-
portance of preserving uniformity hi principle and practice,be-
tween the two Houses of Parliament ; but, at the same time,
nobody can value more highly than I do that check imposed
by the Constitution, which gives to one House the power of
checking and preventing hasty legislation on the part of the
other.—(Loud cheers from the opposition.) Fortunately for
the public there is in this country, there is in this House,
there is in the other House of Parliament, too much of good
feeling, too much of temper, too Much of judgment, too much
of a due estimation of the awful consequences which would
arise from the collision which sonic Gentlemen talk so lightly
of, to excite the slightest apprehension of the consequences
that may arise.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The Houses
of Parliament have differed before, Sir, and they will differ
again ; and the result of their differences heretofore has been
that both of them have carefully and prudently taken time to
consider the subject of difference. If in the present case the
one party find that they have gone farther than the feeling of
the country would suppsrt them; and the other party find they
may yield without running counter to the feeling of the coun-
try in the long run—for I do not speak of popular clamour
that may be excited in a day—l have no fear but that on this
as on all other occasions, the good feeling and temper of both

!oases of Parliament will thid the means of reconcilement.

—(Cheers.) Let us reflect upon what points we are at pre-
sent agreed. Let us have no quibbling about terms; let US
have no quibbling about which side of the House are the D.!-
structives and which the Conservatives.—( Immense chews
from the Opposition, ans►vered by loud cheering from the
Ministerial benches. ) I mean with regard to this point—
( Renewed cheers)—because to all intents and purposes, one
side of tl►e House and the other arc equally agreed in a de-
termination to abolish for ever the existing system of Corpo-
rations in Ireland. The question, then, is, what are we to
propose in their stead for all the different purposes of local go-
vernment ? And on that question, of one thing I am quite cer-
tain—that if the majority of this House should think fit to re-
ject the amendments proposed-by the Lords, and to adhere to
their present determination, the course of argument and of
truth will not suffer, even if the delay of a year should inter-
pose in the consideration and discussion of this question.—
(" Oh," from the Ministerial benches, and cheers from the
Opposition.) Is it absolutely necessary that a system of mu-
nicipal government should be established in 'every town in Ire-
land? Why, at first we were told that it was an insult—And
here I may remark, that it is a very difficult matter to argue
any question, if the moment you point out a difference, you are
met with the assertion that it is an insult; at first we were
told that it was an insult not to confer upon every every large
town in Ireland the full extent of franchise and privileges
which we have bestowed upon the towns in England. This is
an insult. Very well; but what is my Noble Friend's present
proposition ? Why, of the sixty towns to which be proposed at
first to give Corporations, only eleven or twelve now remain.
—( Loud cheers.) Upon the remainder of these towns my
Noble Friend is prepared to put the insult without the slightest
compunction. But I contend that it is no insult at all, but a
due consideration of what is best for the interests of these
towns and cities in general.—( Cheers.) We say that under
present circumstances, and at the present time, the state
of Ireland is such, from the state of the parties, political and
religious—l say it without offence—that the introduction of those
which are the means of peace and harmony elsewhere, would
in Ireland be the introduction of turbulence and discontent.
—(Cheers.) Thinking thus, we feel ourselves bound to ad-
here to our own opinion, however unpopular it may be here,
and in Ireland. You say we cannot call upon you to recede
from your determination ; why, with what face then, can you
call upon us—a minority if you please, but a large minority—
to swerve from the decision to which we have come upon prin-
ciple, when you do so—not for the purpose of concluding the
settlement of this question . but for the purpose of differing
from the other House of Parliament ?—( Cheers.)
There being now lqud cries for a division from all parts of
the House, the House then divided, when there appeared--
Ayes
Noes

Majority for Ministers -86
The announcement of the division was received with loud
cheers.

DISPUTE BETWEEN MEMBERS.

On our return to the Gallery we found the SPEAKER ad-
dressing the House. We understood the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to say, that he had again to call the attention of the
House to a report that had been presented in the early part of
the evening by the Chairman of (as we understood) the South
Durham Railway Bill, respecting a dispute that had occurred
during the sitting of the Committee, between the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Scarborough (Sir F. Trench) and the
Hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Rigby Wason.) When the
matter was mentioned to him in the early part of the evening,
he had felt it to be his duty to call upon the Hon. Member for
Scarborough (Sir F. Trench), who was present, to declare
that the matter should not proceed further until it had been
reported to the House. The other Hon. Member had not
since attended in his place, and therefore he could not be
called upon to give any assurance on the subject. The House,
however, might direct that the Member far Scarborough was
not at liberty to receive a message.
The SPEAKER then called upon Sir F. Trench.
Sir F. TRENCH had attended in his place in obedience to
the orders of the Speaker. lie had also been called upon to
declare that he would take no further notice of the matter. He
had no hesitation in giving that assurance; because he felt—
and he appealed to every member of the Committee who was
present on the point—that he stood in a position which did not
render it necessary for him to take any further steps. Whe-
ther or nut the Hon. Member who had been alluded to felt
bound to take any further notice of the matter he knew not. In
obedience to the comments of the Speaker and to the wishes
of the House, lie was prepared to give an additional assurance
to that he had already given. But after what he had said he
appealed to the Speaker and to any Member of the House that
he could not be bound beyond the jurisdiction of the House
that the matter should go no further if the Hon. Member (as
we understood the Hon. and Gallant Officer), originated the
matter. He would state distinctly, as far as he was con-
cerned, it was not his intention to go further.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the House should
not be satisfied with less than the full and ample assurance
required.
Mr. C. W. WYNN had no doubt that the House would
demand an unlimited declaration that all further proceedings
in this matter should be atan end, and nothing further should,
take place.
The SPEAKER then addressed the House, but ho was
entirely inaudible.
Sir F. TRENCH did not know what the disposition of the
Hon. Member was, but perhaps he might observe that the day
had passed, and he had heard nothing from the Hon. Member.
The Hon. Member for Northampton might be in the House,
and he would appeal to that Hon. Gentleman whether he had
not told him (Sir F. Trench) that he (Mr. Wrightson) went
from the House, in a cab, with the Hon. Member for Ipswich ;
and that Hon. Member had stated that he should not take aey
steps at present. He was willing and anxious to pay every
respect to the House and the chair, but he was notsure whether
in obeying the orders of the Speaker, be might not incur that
which he feared even more than the displeasure oftlats House--
namely, his own self-eondenmation.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought, after what had taken
place, there remained no other step to take. than to move
that Sir F. Trench be taken into the custody of the Sergeant-
at- Arms.

Mr. INGHAM (we believe) had understood the lion.
Member for Scarborough to say that he did not beli,we the
matter would go farther, as he had heard nothing fu'rther front
the Hon. Member for Ipswich. He believed that the misun-
derstanding which had arisen was such, that it could be ended
to the entire honour of both parties.
The questioa was then put and agreed to, and the Hon.
Member for -Scarborough was taken into the eustetly of the
Sergeant-at- Arms.
THE MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)