The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-28 00:00:00

that the knowledge that punishment might follow from the
course he was adopting, urged him still more strongly to ex-
press his dissent from the decision which the House had last
night come to. He expressed his fullest concurrence in the
views of the Hon. Member for Dublin, and he hoped that he
was not violating the rules of the House when he read and
handed in his adoption of the expressions of the Hon. Member
for Dublin.--( Cries of " Order, order.") The Hen. Member
produced a paper, which he was proceeding to read amidst tre-
Mendous cries of " Order," when
Lord JOHN RUSSELL felt it to be his duty to state that
he fully agreed in what had fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentleman in the chair.—( Cheers from both sides of the
House.) He hoped the Honourable Gentleman to whom that
expression of the Right Honourable Gentleman's opinion was
addressed would abide by that opinion, and yield to it that
deference which the authority, and station, and experience
of the Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to demand. He
should regret if that should not be the case, because, after the de-
cision which the House had come to, it would be a mark of dis-
respect to the House to continue the practice of reading any in-
tentional statement of an opinion which the House had thought
deserving of its censure. He was aware that if the Hon.
Member persisted the House might deal differently with him.
But he hoped the Hon. Member's own sense and the finding
What was due to the advice of the Chair and the opinion of
the House would lead him not to persist in this proceeding.
With his views he certainly thought it very natural that Gen-
tlemen who concurred in those views might not be satisfied
with the rote of last night, and might wish to state the rea-
sons of their objections to it, but that having been done, he
thought that any further step with respect to this matter would
only be calculated irregularly to impede the proceedings of
thelHous°, and he trusted the Hon. Member would nut feel
it necessary to push his motion.—( Cheers. )
Mr. ROCHE said as the objection of the House in gene-
ral, and of the Noble Lord in particular, appeared to be the
reading of these words from a paper—(Cries of " Oh ! oh I"
and manifestations of impatience)—as, he repeated, that
seemed to be the objecticn, it would be sufficiently reconcile-
able to his views to state those views in his place.—( Re-
hewed cries of " Order.") If he was out of order the Speaker
Would call him to order, and that call he should be happy to
obey.—( Renewed impatience.) Ile begged now to state that
ne most fully concurred in the sentiments of the Honourable
Member for Dublin, which he believed to be the sentiments
of his constituents, whom he was there to represent, and
whom if he failed to represent from fear or any other mo-
tive, he felt that ho ought no longer to be permitted to hold
his seat.

Mr. HUME—I move, Sir, that the words of the Hon.
Member be taken down.—(Cries of " Chair, chair," " Or-
Ider," in the midst of which the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
!proceeded.) He thought it perfectly consistent with the rules
of the House, that if a Member's words were thought impro-
Per or objectionable, another Member should move that they
be taken down. The words of the Hon. Member for the
county of Cork were, that he fully adopted the words used by
the Hon. Member for Dublin, and he now moved that the
words thus adopted by the Hon. Member he taken down.—
(Order, order, Chair, and general impatience.)
The Clerk of the House having written down the decla-
ration of the Hon. Member for the county of Cork, that he
fully adopted the expressions lately made use of by the Hon.
beg for Dublin,
The SPEAKER rose, and read the words to the House as
takenby the Clerk.
Mr E. B. ROCHE—Those are the expressions, and I
fall adopt them.
Mr HUME—And add—which words the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin made use of at the Crown and
,Anchor, and admitted in his place in this House.—(Great
laughter, and cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. E. B. ROCHE, again rose, amidst cries of " Spoke,
'Poke," and " Order," the Honourable Member said—l
rise for the purpose of explanation. (" Order, order,"
i" Spoke.") I wish to add to the words already taken down
°Y the Clerk of the House these words—" and which ex-
pressions were made use of by the Honourable and Learned
Member at the Crown and Anchor, and which he admitted in
niS place in this House."
Mr. C. BULLER—I hope the House will observe the
Malice (as we understood the word) of the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny. (Great laughter, and calls of " Order.") He
did not rise to order.
„Mr. HUME then said if the Honourable Member for
leitireard had not risen to order he (Mr. Hume) was in pos-
:ession of the House. The Honourable Member was at
Liberty to state to the House that he concurred in the opinions
of the Honourable Member for Dublin, and it was not usual
t 0 object to have the words taken down.—(" Hear, hear,"
f rant the Ministerial benches.) There were two modes of
endeavouring to convince the House of the folly of those pro-
.7edie. The first mde was to attempt to reason against
em ; and when reason failed the next best course was to at-
tempt to ridicule them. His (Mr. Hume's) desire was
to show the House that if they proceeded in the course which
they had adopted there was no saying to what extent those
Proceedings were to go. It was for this reason that ho had
advised the House not to pursue the course which th ey had
Persevered in. The Hon. Member for Cork bad taken
a course which there might be fifty others prepared to take,
!I'd which, if they did take, he ( Mr. Hume) Would be ready
a`a do the same. If this question was brought forward with
t
,i.:fieter of protecting the honour and dignity of the House he
th"e not see how, if they punished one for using this language,
Y ‘st.tld refuse to punish another. He thought that these
proceedings were at variance with the freedom of speech
sahie,
th the House had a right to enjoy, and it certainly was
a e first time that any Member of the House had heard ex-
reseions used at the Crown and Anchor subjected in so formal
4y
manner to the consideration of the House.
M. C. BULLER said that it was difficult to understand
twhat was the real question before the House—whether it was
h 0 words of the lion. Member for Cork to he taken down, or
1,
'ce amendment of the Hon. Member for Meath. The Hon.
Aunber for Kilkenny had stated that his object in having the
~.I.M
;°l'ds of the Hon. Member for Cork taken down was to turn
rtrb ridicule the decision of the House.—(A laugh.) Ile 'en-
tirely concurred with his Hon. Friend, and should allow him
'a exercise his powers of ridicule—( A laugh)—to the full
extent in that respect. But his Honourable Friend should
recollect that pleasantry might be carried too far, and that
bel of king appared t have ben ket u too lng. He
It''ied redjo
that this was ao mattere whichp wasp not coonsidered
joke by most Members of the House. He would
tlt:dentsly esk the House to consider the consequences of
it. Proceedings. Did they suppose that they could withim-
punitycarry apersonal motion against a distinguished MMem-
berof the House ? The only effect would be to provoke the
ational feeling to rally round him. The Hon. Member for
dark had to-night exhibited a generous feeling that well be-
ettelle his youth, though accompanied by the indiscretion so
ghtural to his years. Could they doubt that this feeling would
ex end to the constituency which he represented ? He (Mr.
Buller) was not there to justify the words which the Hon. and
Learned Member for Dublin had made use of. Agreeing in
much of the censure that had been passed upon this kind of
tribunal, he could not agree in the strong language in which
}I
had couched it. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin bad stated that his (Mr. Buller's) words had justified
e
t language ho bad used. As far as a Member who had
14,en much pains on the subject, without heat or party feeling,
'e had endeavoured to call attention to the evils that prevailed
Ileder the present system, but in doing so it would have been
Is!'from his wish to use offensive language. He would never
Wishll to couch his sentences so as to provoke the feelings of
ell of honour. He had wished in the most calm and delibe-
rate
terms to call the attention of the House to the evils of the
l'r!sent system of trying election petitions. To illustrate the
ilpinion which the country entertained on the subject, he
41 said that he believed the Gentlemen who com-
posed that House to be Gentlemen of the highest edu-
ia4tion, the highest honour, and the highest rank in the
~
system Hear, hear)—and, ho asked, what must the
Istem be which would make the people of the country be-
;ere that gentlemen such as he had described were, in re-
nect to these tribunals, neither bound by their honour nor
their oaths. He did not say that this opinion was well founded.
p
ar from it; but he used the expression to show that the
13,,e0p1e of the country had no confidence in the present system.
"ow, when such an opinion was entertained by the public, he
asked the House was it right to punish the Hon. Member
fee Dublin for the expression of that opinion although be had
expressed it in terms of more than ordinary coarseness ? He
(Mr. Buller) would much rather bo stigmatised in lan-
Ftlage whose virulence indicated the presence of passion than
?1 terms of calmness and deliberation, which were sure to
lay* a much greater and more permanent effect. The Right
all
.functions in a neighbouring country, and he believed the only
:ll° Point on which all parties in that distracted country agreed
as to the groat ability and impartialityh with whichld the
ifiernised those functions.—(Cheers.) nd ow world
exercised
A
bench,
Hon. Member feel when he descended from the judicial
if he had heard it whispered that he had acted with
15
131 as towards his political friends ? It seemed to him (Mr.
uiler) that nothing could stand against the plain sense and
argument of the Noble Lord lastnigbt. If proceedings like the
b
rresent were persevered in, was it not to be expected that
t
;il°`,,itical opponents would retaliate ? He had seen language
uPe of towards the Members of that House in
oiPeeehes delivered at Conservative meetings,
o man of
and which was
Iv very offensive nature—language such as n
individual
could bear to have addressed to bim, and winch any
djlividual Member might feel called on to notice, only the in-
__Yirluality was lost in the largeness of the imputations.
Well the Speaker of the House, however safe from the effect
3:1101 attacks in the dignity and high position and impartiality
a,a
is,“o'eb all parties conceded to him, had not escaped them.
w, if they were to adopt proceedings of this nature, there
arid be no end to the breaches of the privileges of the
Member
which they would feel called on to notice. The Hon.
proceeded to allude to the charge of the Bishop of
hteter, which contained a strong censure against some of
Members of that House; and although some Hon. Mem-
bers might please themselves on the sagacious quirk that the
thilnage had been spoken of the last Parliament, and not of
0 e present, yet, he asked, was it decent, or gentlemanlike,
orf)creditable, that such language should he made use
After some-further obeervatioes, the Hon. Member con-
cluded by begging the Hon. Member for Meath to with-
raw his name from the amendment. The Hon. Member
should have some respect to his feelings, and he must very
With the Bishop of Exeter.
Mr- GILL ON considered the present proceeding anything
but creditable to the House, and calculated to cover all their
lit:cleeedings with ridicule. He was sure the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin would not take the censure he
wasl to receive much to heart, as certainly in similar circum-
stances be (Mr. Gillon) should not. The censure was the cen-
4r,"e, of a majority of the House for whose (pinions he (Mr.
i
°n) entertained no respect whatever. This was a dange
Qtts Power which the House were attempting to exercise. It