The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

forfeiture is to secure the execution of the' Act, or tht
punishment or prevention of t ffences.
" 2, Where such fees are imposed in respect of benefit
taken or service rendered under the Act, and in order tt
the execution of the Act, and are not made payable is ti
the Treasury or Exchequer, or in aid of the public re,
venue, and do not form the ground of public accounting
by the parties receiving the same, either in respect of
defic.t or surplus.
" 3. When such Bill shall be a private Bill for a local
or personal Act."
Sir R. INGLIS said, that before the Speaker pros
ceeded to put the question, he wished to draw attention
to an amendment which he should propose—he referred
to the resolution as adopted by the Committee of 17,1 t
July, whitth he should move should be inserted. The
Howe would recollect that they had the feet ou the
Speaker's own high authority, that the House was per-
petually waiving its privileges in respect to Bills which
were brought up from the other House. He thought, that
considering, the truth of the statement made by his Right
Hen. Friend the Member for Northampton, that great
'nterest had been excited abroad in reference to the mode
tedueting public business—that the way in which it
was conducted had excited great dissatisfaction, and
excited a feeling almost of indignation, as to what was
called the waste of the public time—he thought it very
desirable that they should give the other House .of
Parliament an opportunity of introducing Bills, even
though :,010 of the provisions of the Bills might seem
to trench on the privileges of the House of Commons.
The Speaker had stated before the Select Committee a
number of cases in which they were compelled to waive
their prisil, gee; and it ,would be better to allow the
other House to interfere with the money privileges, so
long as they did not affect the general burdens of the
Stale or the public service, It must be quite obvious
that such money clauses must only be applicable to pri-
vate and personal Acts. The Hon. Baronet concluded
by proposing words providing that such moneys should
only, apply to eases of local property, or purposes not
affecting the general burdens of the State. He proposed
this as a part of the ses:ional orders which the House
was about to adopt.
The amendment having been put,
Mr. HUME recollected that a long discussion bad
taken place before the Select Committee on the propriety
of rescinding this resolution, and many objections were
urged to such a course of proceeding. Many objections
were raised to the resolution proposed by his Hon.
Friend below him (Sir R. Inglis). For his own part,
he thought the. Hquse ought not hastily to pass a reso-
lution which lion. Gentlemen must recollect involved
questions of the taxation of the public to a considerable
extent. He hoped his Hon. Friend would postpone his
resolution for the present.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when this question first
came before the Committee, he thought the resolution
propose d by his Hon. Friend would not be objectionable;
but the more it was sifted and examined, the more diffi-
cult it became for the Committee to recommend its
adoption to the House. For instance, the House of
Lords might, in respect to some Bills, propose to intro-
duce taxes, which, though they appeared applicable only
to local objects, and not to the general service of the
country, would taxethe community in a manner not con-
templated. Suppose a case occurring in Scotland, where
moneys were raised for building schools, and those schools
were confined to certain sects, or to Church purposes ex-
clusively, that case might involve a considerable tax,
which would excite great opposition.
Sir R. INGLIS said he was ready, with the leave of
the House, to withdraw his amendment.
Resolution as originally proposed agreed to.
The SPEAKER, having put the 14th resolution—
" That after Tuesday, the Ist day of May next, orders
of the day shall have precedence of notices of motions on
Thursdays, the right being reserved to her Majesty's
Ministers of placing Government orders at the head of
the list, as on Mondays and Fridays."
Mr. lIERRIES said this resolution was one which
was distinct from those which had preceded it. It was
proposed on the part of her Majesty's Government to
invite the House at this early period to declare that on
and after the Ist of May the power of giving notices of
motions should be surrendered to her Majesty's Govern-
ment. Now he thought there was great objection to this.
When, indeed, the saute of the public business should be
such as to show the propriety of this step, then it would
be time to adopt the suggestion made. He thought her
Majesty's Government were asking too much, and he
al cud put it to the House whether it would not be better
in this, as they had done in former sessions, to leave the
matter to the discretion of Parliament.
Lord J. RUSSELL begged leave again to call the
attention of the House to te very great changes which
had taken place in the mode of conducting business in .
that House. In the beginning of this century no
business whatever had precedence of orders of the
cley. It would be found that then, on Monday, Tues-
(ley, Thursday, and Friday, the Government could
take any orders they pleased; and it was only now
old then that notices of motions interfered with
Government business. But it was afterwards found that
the notices o: motions reached so far that it was no
longer possible to carry on the business as it had been
conducted, and the House appropriated Mondays and
Fridays, all 'wing the Government to have precedence ;
but since that was dens, f r the purpose chiefly of Com-
mittees of Supply, and such Bills as were then intro-
duced, there had been still a greater change in the
mode of conducting. Bills in that House. TbUS, when
measures of importance were brought in, whatever
might be the Government in office, it was the general
opinion that if there were to be legislation on any great
subject it stioutd be undertaken by the Government,
and that individual Members had nothing else to do
than to approve or to criticise the merits of such
measures. That being the case, the House .
enabled the Government to introduce the estimates,
and the supplies for the year ; and not only this,
but they allowed them to introduce all Bills of
importance. This, then, was not a fair distribution of
the business. It was not fair that the Government .
ehould have only two days, and individual Members
three days; or rather, in other words, the Government
should have eight days in the course of a month, and
other Members twelve days!—(Hear.) He thought,
therefore, that either by some resolution of this kind at
the early period of the session, or else at some future
period of the session—by giving up the Thursday to the '
Government—tire House would give a more equal distri-
bution of the time to those who had to conduct Govern-
ment business. It was necessary that the Bills sent up
from the other House should be sufficiently early. He
thought it would be found that the Government business
would not make due progress while only two days were
allowed to the Government, and that it would be for the
public convenience generally to make some difference in
the present arrangement. At the same time, by print-
ing, this resolution he did not wish to press it now, it the
Right Hon. Gentleman thought it would be better to
postpon,, it till a future time; but would leave it to the
House when the time came on, when he should again
brine forward the subject, and ask the House to consent
to his proposition. He did not wish to take the House
by surprise, end would withdraw the resolution.
Mr. M. GIBSON said this, he believed, was the time
to make a proposition for regulating the length of
speeches of Hon. Members in debate, and he wished to
submit to the House a most moderate proposal—it was
novelty! He did not seek to limit the speeches to half
an hour even, though he thought forty minutes was
sufficient, but he proposed one hour as the commence-
meat of the system. He begged to move as an addition
to the last resolution the feliowing words And with
a view to the dispatch of public business, that the
speeches of Hon. Members be limited to one hour each;
but this rule shall not apply to those who may introduce
an original motion, or to a Minister of the Crown speak-
ing in reply."
The SPEAKER—Does the Hon. Gentleman object to
the Noble Lord withdrawing his proposition?—(Heart)
Mr. GIBSON—No.
Resolution withdrawn.
Mr. GIBSON said that perhaps the House would
raise no objection to his moving his resolution as a sub-
stantive proposition. He was aware that this was rather
irregular, but as the subject was before the House it
would be better to discuss it at once.
Question put.
Mr. HORSMAN said they had a groat deal of hurried
legislation in that House, and the result was that many
Acts got into the statute-book in a very imperfect and,
cruel state. In the last session 49 Bills were read a first
time after the Ist of August, and between 70 and 50
were read a third time in August. He could not seethe
validity of the objection of the Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to imposing a restriction upon the days on whica
Bills should pass a certain stage.
The question " that the motion be withdrawn," hav-
ing been put,
Mr. M. GIBSON said he would move his'amendrnelP
in such a way as to enable the [louse to divide on it se if:
new proposition. He, therefore, moved the omission 0'
all the words after the word " That" in the original he
tion, for the purpose of inserting the following : tt,lo
speeches be limited to one hour, but that this rule 0..
not apply to those who may introduce original motielo,
or to a Moister of the Crown speaking in reply."
Mr. COBDEN seconded the amendment.
The original words having been negatived,
The SPEAKER put the motion as proposed by r'
Gibson.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the matter Ws:,
fully discussed in Committee, the majority certaineli
thought it would be inconvenient to introduce any 6110
rule. He admitted that the time might corns when sowia
limitation would be necessary, but ho thought it weiclict
be a great sacrifice of the public convenience. ile„
not think it would be fair to say that a Minister or h 0
Crown, or a Member opening a certain question, ell°
be allowed to exceed the hour. Suppose the case ore&
individual Member introducing a question alleging iog
minality against some Member then in office, or hnio is
lately left office, or against any other Member, we° ore
be fair that the mover should go through the whole cod
duct of a public board, extending over a very long Psrocle
of time, and insisting upon his charges with every that
vantage of eloquence he might possess, and then,
v au
the person accused should not be at liberty to occhZ,ar.)
equal length of time in defending himself ?—crinitioo
He did not see how it was possible to make a deh, is, 0,
calculated to do justice to all
better rule to confine all parties ptoartoiense.
allow any exception.—(clear, hear.) But, ho beggt:,
submit to the House, what a loss it would have be 7d_
many occssiuns when a great subject was to be 0? 910,00
hen a great financial plan was to be developeea
hltcuwroutitel
a considerable change was to be proposed in th t.ropo•
tution of the country, if the Member making ille_Fhoie
sition should not have been allowed more than
--(Hear, hear.) Unless they were to limit eye
to an hour they would hardly do justice to the_' our,
dual; and if they did limit every Member to suit/eat,
they would hardly do justice to the subject.
,_l/411, be;
hear.) It was possible that such a resolution
.170 f tb
come desirable, but he trusted that the discrete%
_coos
House would render any such step altogether 01'
etv
sarv.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. I'YNTE said that if that valuable buoot y
ioofd gad
gnaw t0w11904 01t1 ogia;ry wore ;IQ RI