The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-14 00:00:00

thought, therefore, if the Bill became law in its pre-
,ut form, that all necessary improvements in the
different counties would be stopped ; and on that
and several other grounds he strongly recomm nded
the lion. Member ter Montrose to allow this Bill nut
merely to go to a Committee, but to allow the subject of
county rates and co enty expenditure to be reconsidered.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, when he was called upon to
support the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman opposite
he was perfectly at a loss to know whether or not the
principle of representation in county management was
admitted or not.—(hear. hear.) If he could get some
assurance, in soave form or other, that the principle of
representation in county management was to be recog•
nized, there would be no man more reedy to approve the
principle of this Bill, from the beginning to the
end, than he was. That was all that he asked. A go-
vernment ought to have a self dependent and independent
spirit, and it should be enabled fairly and openly to avow
a policy, to adopt it, and stick by it. It should not
occupy the high places of the country, and while occu-
pying those high places avoid all the great questions of
the day, but it was their duty to take their stand, when
they had a principle, upon that principle.—(Hear.) The
Hun. Gentleman the Secretary of State having admitted
the great principle of representation he would allow
him (Mr. Roebuck) to adopt him as his general on this
cceteion, and to tight that great battle under his banner.
He (Mr. Roebuck) did hope the House would in reality
entirely negative the sort of side- wind way in which the
Hon. Gentleman opposite had sought to throw out this
Bill. It was the great principle of representation which
be (Mr. Roebuck) was there then to support.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said he had stated if the lion. Gentle-
man opposite persevered in the motion of which he had
given notice, and the question should then have been
would the House admit the principle of representation
into financial boards in assessing county rates, or would
they altogether reject that principle—if that was the
point on which they were to take issue, he (Sir George
Grey) said he should have no hesitation in voting for
the principle of the Bill, greatly as he objected to some
of its details.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON explained that in his address
he gave no opinion with respect to the principle of re-
presentation—no one was more favourable to representa-
tion than he was; but he conceived the whole matter
ought to be investigated by a Committee.
Mr. PACKE had no hesitation in saying that this
Bill, though he did nut accuse the Hon. Gentleman of
bringing it forward fur that purpose, was an affront to the
magistracy of England. Many important matters would
be placed by this Bill beyond the control of the county
board. For instance, the expenses allowed by a judge
would not come under its jurisdiction. lie fully admitted
that there should be representation in county matters;
but he obit ced to it, because it was not practicable. As
he had said, they would have no power over the ass,z!
expenses at sessions. He approved of inquiry by a
Committee.
Mr. C. LEWIS said he gathered that it was the wish
of the House that the whole matter should be referred
to a Select Committee.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Gentleman was wrong. He
first wanted the House to affirm the principle, and then
to refer the Bill to a Committee.
Mr. C. LEWIS said he so understood the Hon. Gen-
tleman. It was not necessary that a magistrate should
be a contributor to the county rates; therefore the
statement of the Honourable Gentleman, that the
rates might be imposed by persons who did not con-
tribute to them,• was perfectly correct. Then, again,
it was not until 1834 that representation was ac-
knowledged as being coincident with taxation.
tle strongly advised the House to refer the whole ques-
tion to a Committee, for the time had now arrived when
a great change must be made in the entire system of
county taxatuon.
Mr. MILES came down to oppose the principle of
the Bill, because it would cast a slur upon the magistracy
of the couutry—(Oh, uh.)—but since his Hou. Friend
had altered his amendment, he had no objection to
refer the Bill and the general subject of representation to
the consideration of a Committee.—( Hear, near.) During
the last few years the greatest economy had been prac-
tised in the county expenditure, while at the present mo-
ment no county was without its finance committee, who
earefullysitted and examined the accounts.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not think, therefore, that it was fair to attack the
magistracy in the manner some Honourable Gentlemen
hat done, but as they were now agreed that the whole
subject should be thoroughly investigated, he hoped
there would be no obj• ction on the part of the majority
of the House to adopting the amendment.—(Hear, hear.)
He would readily have voted for the principle of this
Bill, but the principle was so much mixed up with the
details, that he could not possibly support the second
reading.
Mr. E. DENISON came down to the House with a
purpose widely different from that which had been ex-
pressed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down.
He regretted many of the observations which had been
made respecdng the gentry of England, for
he thought that they only prejudiced the question. He
would much rattier teat the House fr•hould go into
this inquiry without been crippled by a vote of the
Reuse; out, considering alt the circumstances, he thought
that it would be better t‘i affirm the proposition before
the House.—(Cries of "Divide, ctivide.")
Mr. SPOONER rase, amid loud and continued cries
Divide, divine," and said that this Bill was not one
ior admission, but of exclusion. lle was altogether
friendly t,• the principle of representation in county
afrairs.—(Renewed cries of " Divide, divide.") But the
details ot this Bill were in many respects so
objectionable that he believed that in voting
for the amendment he was furthering instead of
impeding the object of the Hen. Me mb. r for Montrose.
By vesting the it hole of the control of the prisons of the
county to this financial board they would take from the
sheriff of the county the right of appointing persons to
ffiees in the prisons, while he was in tact the very per-
son responsible for the custody of the prisoners.—(Re-
newed cries of " Divide, divide.")
After a tew words frotn Lord BROOKE and Mr. SLANEY,
spoken amidst great uproar,
M.. HUME said, twit he hoped that as several Mem-
bers were not present when he stated the objects of the
Bill, he should be allowed to repeat them.—(Cries of
" On, eh.") He would not be long. It any slur was cast
at all it wa, cast b,, the House un the Commissioners.—
_

(Hear, hear.) Ali he desired to do was to carry out the
lecominet,dation of the Comtnissioners. That was to
establish the principle of repress ntation, and he asked no
more. If Vey wished to refuse that principle, let them
shelve it by an insidious resolution; or if they wisher to
adopt it,. let them vote for the Bill. He conceived
that he had been deceived by the Government. In
tsct, to use a common phrase, he had been '• soid."—
(Laughtr.) When he was applied to to bring in the
Bill he objected, and said it was not the business of an
individual Mewber, that it was the business of the
Government, and that, they ought to go to Sir
George Grey, and ask him to introduce the
Bill. They did so, but Sir George Grey de-
clined, although he agreed to the principle. lie then
told diem to go to Lord John Russell; but they came
back and said that he also approved of the principle,
but declined to bring in the Bill. What then was he to
do?—(Hear, hear.) He spoke to Lord John Russell in
that House.—(°• Order," and laughter)—he supposed he
might make himselt understood.—(Laughter.) Well
the Noble Lord, the First Minister, said the Govern-
ment's lrinis were so lull, that ho could not undertake
the management of the Bill, but he entirely agreed with
it; and he (Mr. Hanle) understood from what then passed

that it he brought in the Bill he should receive the aup•
post of the Guvernment—(Hear)—and in that way it was
that he he had been autirely sold.—(Luud laughter.)
He called upou every Member who agreed with the prin-
ciple that the county rates ought to be managed by
individuals appointed by the rate-p,iyers, to vote with him
for the second reading.—([fear, hear.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
Fur pu tii.g Mr. Hume's motion ... 96
Against it ... ... 154
Majority . . 58
The effect of this di.ision was, that Sir J. Pakihgton's
amendment became the main question before the House.
Mr. M. Gll-1-ON proposed on amendment, to the
effect that the Se's t Committee should consider the pro-
priety or intrudumng the principle of representation of
the rate-payers.
Mr. B. DENISON did not object to the amendment
of the lion. Gentleman. but he th,.ught there would be
very gre,.r difficulty in carrying it into effect.

ill:: DISRAELI said the question before the House
was whether at, principle of representation should be
referred to a S:leet Cornmittt-e. That question could
not be satisfacturilt settled unless it was settled by the
whole Huuse. '1 b• douse was as competent now to
enter into that discussion as it could be after any inves-
tigation before a Select Committee.—(Cheers.) There
could not be a greater slur on the House of Commons
than to suppose that they were not competent to enter
into the consideration of a great constitutional question.

_ Mr. ROEBUCK said this was a Bill which affected a
larger portion of the people of this country than any
Bill that had been brought into tne House this session,
and yet the Government, approving of its principle, had
thrown the onus of introducing it on a private Member.
—BO (alip
pe
ra
or .v)t
gI to
tw at
os
atth
ge
rbeouutnpdtat
nucdi
pultey,
toot the Ggoivveernn
it etrhi te,
sanction and support of the Government.
rose to explain. He had declined on
beShairlfG.GßEY
at the Government
~.cos,n
take the responsibility of
the Bill upon himself. He t...)
saw not the slightest obj
to the amendment, except that it was too limited in its
character as to the parties who were to control the ex-
penditure of the funds.
Mr. BRIGHT said all who bad spoken agreed
that representation was good, for indeed it
.vas
mon-
strous that 1,500,0001 should be expended withou
&lent control. Let tht m come to the conclusiontassutfo.
the nature of that representation, whether it should be
more or le,s than proposed.
Sir J. PAKINGrTON said, after weighing the words
of the amendment, he confessed he was not so ready to
alopt them as some Hon. Gentlemen opposite and near
him. He re•erred again to his amendment, and con-
tended that it proposed as large an inquiry as that pro.
posed in the amendment of the Hon. Geutlemam; the
carrying of which would be equivalent to the second
reading of the Bill, and which, doubtless, was the Hon.
Gentli man's object.
Mr. W. PAT I'EN said, as his mind was made up on
the principle of representation, ho should not object to
the inser. ion 01 the words.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the amend-
inent.
Mr. R. PALMER also supported it.
Atter a few observations from Mr. W. MILES and
WILLIAM JOLLIFFE,
AL-. GLADSTONE said the amendment of Mr. Gib-
son inv,:ived a-very important principle, for it was im-
possible for any man who bad not made up his mind in
favour of contr:l'
by election to vote for it. He was
anxious, therefore; t..
assenting to it it woUltv tt
the House. should know that in
pledge itself to the principle of
representation.

The gallery was then &eared for a division.
The reporters were excluded Lor a considerable time,
but on our return to the gallery we learned that there
bad been no division, but that the debate had been con-
tinued, and we found
Mr. DISRAELI speaking and saying that thq mea-
sure had not been conducted in a manner that was lair
and straightforward.—( Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL interposed to say
that the names of the several parties had been given.
Mr. DISRAELI said that at least that was the im-
pr:ssion of every Gentleman sitting near him.—(Hear.)
The A CTORNEY-GENERAL—But it was not so.
Mr. DISRAELI would give the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the benefit of either circumstance. if be
hat stated that the amendment of the Hon. Member fir
Manchester would give to the rate-payers an effec-
tive control of the county expenditure, how could he
say that it did not include the representative prin-
ciple?—(Hear. hear.) For his own part he was de-
cidedly opposed to ateinquiry in a Select Committee.
It there was to be an inquiry at all it ought to be on the
floor of that House; and he should give his earliest
oppovitior:, by all the means which the constitution
afforded, to any other.—(Cheers.)
The ATTORNEY GENERAL said that he would
also give the Hon. Gentleman the choice of a dilemma,
and this time he would speak a little louder than betore.
—(Loud cheers.) The Honourable Gentleman ap-
peared to have lust little by his absence in the former
part of the debate, for he had equalized his position by
his inattention afterwards. The lion. and Learned
Gentleman then went into an explanation of what he did
say, in which he was loudly cheered.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, deprecating a
division, to which the Lion. Member who moved the ad-
jouenment did not respond, strangers were ordered to
withdraw, and the House divided; when there app-ared—
For the adjournment B3
Against it l3l
Majority --48

Lord BROOKE th:n moved that the House do now
adjourn, considering that the subject was too important
to oe proceeded with at that late hour.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER seconded the motion.
Mr. HUME said there could be no doubt that the
object of county Members was to del4y and postpone th,-
measure.—(Loud cries of " Hear.") It would more
become the character of the country gentlemen
to honestly come forward, and tither support or
oppose the measure, than to adopt a course for the
purpose of preventing the House coining to a decision.
After a few words from Sir J . PAIUNGTON,
Mr. B. DENISON rose to make a few observations,
but had scarcely utrered two sentences before A was
noticed that the hour of six hid arrived.

The House then adjourned, the Hon. Members
leaving the Liou,e amidst much 1 ,udhter.

PRINTERS' ALIVIStiOUSES.

The foundation stone of this institution was laid on
Monday, by Lord Mahon, at Wood-green, Tottenham.
Lord Mahon arrived a tortly after two o'clock, ace,om-
pained by Mr. Rich ird Taylor (the treasurer) and the
committee of the had utiun. On the ground was a
spacious marquee, in which a largo number of persons
found ample accommodation.
An appropriate hymn (wtitten by a member of the
committee) having been sung by the Sunday school
children in attendance, and by the company,
Mr. Dorian (the secretary) read a very able address
of the committee, in which the claims of those who may,
by misfortune or old age, become fit objects for the
almshouses, were eloquently set forth.
After the delivery of the address, Lord Mahon pro-
ceeued to lay the hrst stone, with the usual formalities.
On the stone was the following itis•Tiption:—`• Printers'
Almshouses. This first stone was laid by Philip Henry
Lord Viscount Mahon, M.P., on Monday, June 11,
1849." The names of the treasurer, trustees, the secre.
tary, and the architect were inscribed upon the stone.
The ceremony having been gone through, the Rev.
Mr. Cox, rector of Bishopsgate, offered up a prayer, in-
voking the bl, !sing of tue Almighty on the good work.
Lord Manox, in concluting the proceedings, said he
had felt it both an honour and a pleasure 'to come
among them that day for the purpose of laying the
foundation stone of an institution, the beneficial effects
of which, he had no doubt, would be felt when he, and
'hose who were assembled around him, had left., this
fleeting scent'.—(Hear, hear.) It was one of the proudest
boasts of man, that though himself but a mere speck in
the vast ocean of tune, he should be emit:led, by joining iu
efforts such as these, to establish institutions not merely
to be the things of a day, but whose benefits were to
flow on from age to age, gathering strength as they went
along, thus perpetuating his genensity, and aiming
blessings and benefits to generations after him.—
(Cheers.) If, then, such was the feeling which actuated
them in promoting, any object in which their own
personal feelings might be mixed up, or intended for
he carrying out of their views and opinions of public
affairs, how much stronger ought those feelings and
their desire to carry out that object be when
it was for the purpose of promoting the hap-
piness and comfort of their fellow men.—(Cheers.)
'they had been reminded I,y. the Rev. Gentleman, who
theirhadtf
uenrde ( ups r a
„ir
rak
in
g,pipnrlr a
withouttst rtayhee prayers
efsoiri thetig ostn cacne ses,
eort
watchtul 1), ovidence all their efforts were in vain; but,
in a cause like ihe present, they were doing that which
Divine authority itselt commanded in the clearest terms,
and in doing which they were following at an humble
distanca Divine example.—(Hear, hear.) Among the
many indications of feeling which they saw at the pre-
sent time, and the various changes a bich they ssw
taking place, many of which sver, viewed in &fferent
lights by diff.rent individuals, there was one indication

of feeling paramount among all these, and at which
they must all rejoice, and that was the increased and
increashg feeling which eas exemplified in behalf
of measures for the be, tering the conettion and increasing
the comfort of the working classes. That was a
matter which in former times had been too much ne-
glected.—( Hear, hear.) The wants or the eiehes of that
class had beef' too little attended to, and they might say
with the poet, that—
" When a stately pile is raised,
You never hear the workmen praised,
Who used the lime and worked the stones,
But all give praise to leigo Jones."
—(Cheers and laughter.) Ile trusted, however, that
teeling of neglect would no longer prevail, and for
himself he must say he could not think well of tiny one
who could slight or overlook those without whose exer-
tions they could have never risen to the s'ations they
hold.—(Hear, hear.) But he telt an interest in this uu-
er
he meant as a mem-
dbert
oark inuisipunsoethoeir
upoominrnt ooftisv.i_eTH
ear,
the hear.) It had
often fallen to his for, when retiring from the House cf
Commons and fagged out at two or three o'clock in the
morning, having been listening to slime important de-
bah, after enjoying a few hours of sleep to have placed
on his breakfast table, when he got up, a correct and
lucid report of all the speeches and statements be had
been listening to the night previous, and it was natural
that he should reflect on the skill and labour which had
produced that report, and ask himself to whom he was
indebted for it?—(Hear, hear.) If' the first place,
no doubt, he was indebted to the reporters—a class
of men of the highest respectability and talent ;
hut he could not forget that when the reporters' work
was finished the printer commenced his, so that
his labour was protracted throughout the night, and
it was well known that the labour so carried on must
ultimately make conaiderrib e inroads in the physical
energies of those engaged in it.—(Hear, hear.) That
therefore, was another inducement fur them to do some
thing to render the declining years of those men com-
Eatable. But on an occasion such as the present, it
might not be out of place for them to consider, not only
the disadvantages, but ul-o the advantages attending the
profession, for it was the fact, that white there were
oftentimes many circumstances which reduced them to
misery and destitution, there were, at the same time, op
which, if properly
to eminence. They
pht
likr;tUnn placedai tdi s
vantageawff ihridnoe afforded
their
mightb t h e
reach
raise
t hthetae
profession,works of the greatest
authors, and hence ample opportunities of enlightening
their minds, and, fortunately, they had connected with
their own profession a bril iant example of what could
he done by careful industry and study in that respect.
Franklin--(Loud cheers)—was a poor printer, and in
the outset of his career, excited in no small degree the
risible faculties of the good citizens of Boston, where he
went in quest of work, while stalking about the streets
with a small loaf in his pcket, and eating a third, but
twenty years a'ter that event, Franklin by.assiduity and
etudy raised himself' to be one of the chief citizens of
Boston, and was afterwards sent as Ambassador to
France, and became one of the chief statesmen of -Arne-
rice.,--(Hear, hear.) Such could not be the lot of prin
ters generally, but at the same time much might be done
in raising themselves in the social scale. In the mean-
time, however, he had to do with the untoward circum-
stances which might befal those of the printing profes-
sion, and to point out the means to alleviate them. Late
hours, he had already said, were a great means of soon
impairieg the energies of men so engaged, and he found
that the failure of eyesight was an evil which very fre-
quently betel them. It was proper, therefore, that they
should do all in their power to render the old age of such
men comfortable, and it was in that point of view that he
urged upon those who heard him the duty of sup-
porting the institution, the foundation-stone of which
he had now laid.—(Cheers.) He ventured to hope
that in such a cause they would put forth their best
energies, and in such a cause he did not doubt but a
blessing would descend from on high. Permit aim.
then, to assure them of his cordial good wishes in that
cause. He should ever' remember that day as one in
which `he aided in carrying on a labour of love, and he
wished sincerely that their institution might long pros-
per.—(Cheery.) his earnest desire was that they might
always have the means of succouring the distressed of
,30010 waslrad n
their members, and he heped that those who might
afterwards inhabit that building might spend the even-
ing of their days in peace and happiness, and in the
humble hope of a blessed immortality.—(Laud cheers.)
The Noble Lord then descended from the platform,
and left the pavilion amid loud and enthusiastic cheer-
ing. He was conducted to his carriage by the officers
of the institution, and immediately left for town.
In the evening " a friendly
soiree"
tlieomnd,
nonwTeraevperrnes.enßt eattwite.en
Mr. 200 H.
i2:ess heldiand
presided.
.t g theen
Votes of thanks were given to Lord Mahon, and also
to the treasurer, trustees, and other persons who have
been active in promoting the establishment of the insti-
tution.

A very handsome subscription (amounting to between
3001. and 4001.), was announced. Amongst them were
10 guineas from Lord Mahon, 40 guineas from Messrs.
Clowes and Co. (making their donation 1000, 5 guineas
from Mr. C. Knight, 10 guineas from Messrs. Traps and
Son, 10 guineas from J. and H. Cox Brothers, 5 guineas
from Mr. W. Cox (exclusive of 10 guineas to the en-
dowment fund), 10
guineas from Mr. Richard Tay-
lor, &c.

'We earnestly recommend the " Printers' Almshouses "
at Wood-green to the liberal support of every wealthy
member of the.trade.