The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-04 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 4, 1831.

his measure. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. CALCRAFT objected to the course which the
Noble Lord was then taking, and asserted that it appeared
to him that the Noble Lord did not know what his plan
of Reform was to be twenty-four hours before he sub-
mitted it to the Howe of Commons.

Sir C. WETHERELL again protested against the sin-
gular conduct of
.the Noble'Paymister, who, after his Bill
was brought in, called for information to elucidate it.
Mr. STANLEY said that the lion, and Learned Metn_.
ber for BOroughbridge, and his Noble Friend near hirn—
the Achilles and Patroclus of the opposite benches, for
they now fought under the same shield, and displayed the
sime banner—might be among the very few Members of
that House who wished this question to he discussed with
out sufficient information—(Loud cheering)---but there
might he others, not quite so learned either in law or eta.
tistics, who might be anxious to receive the information
which the Noble Lord now wished to lay on the table, in
a compendious form.—(Hear.)—He was convinced that.
whatever object the Hon. and Learned Member, and his
Noble ally, might have in preventing the House from re-
ceiving the information now tendered to it, the Hintse
would feel that the more information it received on this
subject, the more able would it be, to form a judgment on
the merits of the Bill of Noble Friend, and he would
• • - •
add, to see the benefic:al results which must ensue to the
country from carrying it into effect.—(Hear.)
Lord NU9E,NT knew that considerable inisappCelien.
sion had gone abroad as to the reasons why the boroughs
of Caine or Tavistock, and, of Knaresborough, were nut
among the number of J.wroughs disfranchised. The reason
why they had not been_disfrrnachised was distinctly stated
on the first night of this debate by his Noble Friend near
him, and Jost nighi.by the Hon. Member for Yorkshire.
—(Hear.)—The returns now moved for would set that
misapprehension at rest for ever.
Mr. GOULBUIIN—These, returns then are moved for
as an answer to the._ speech. of my Hon. and Learned,.
Friend, the Member for. Boroughbridge.—(Great cheer-
ing from the Opposition Benches..)—An observation
caused by the speech of, the Noble Paymaster of the Forces
is to be answered and refuted by the production of returns,
which but for that observation would never have been
produced. The information which these returns are to
furnish ought to have been submitted to the House before
the Bill was brought in.

Lord NUGENT complained of the manner in which his
observations had been misrepresented by the last speaker,
and assured him that the returns were not moved for on
the grounds which he alleged, but for the purpose of con-
vincing the House and the country that the changes pro-
posed in his Noble Friend's B:11 were not made for the
sake of innovation, but of improvempr.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL sail, that the motion for the
production of these-returns was not made fur the reasons
supposed by the Right lion. Gentleman opposite. , After
explaining the reasons why Caine, Tavistock, and Knares.
borough wete not to be disfranchised, the Noble Lord
begged leave to be permitted to tell the Hon. Member, for
Wareham, that, so f,r was he from being correct in his
assertion that he did nut know what his plan of Reform
was to be twenty-fotir hours before be introduced it, that
he was acquainted with it in all its great outlines, which
remained unchanged, so eatly as the middle cfJanuary._
(Great cheering. )
Mr. CROKER did not rise to object to the 'notion.
On the contrary, he thought that not only this informa-
tion, but much more should be afforded to the House be-
fore it ventured to legislate on so important a question.—
(Hear, hear.) He wished to ask the Nob'e Lord, whether
he had any objection to put in a short form upon paper,
for the information of Hon. Memb,r3, the details of the
proposition which he had brought into the House ? His
reason for asking the Noble Lord this question was, that
he had asked the Noble Lord, before he came into thti
House, for an explanation of one part of his speech, of
which there had appeared two versions, ad his Lordship,
in answer to that question, had told him (Mr. Croker)
that be could not say whether he had stated the matter
either in one way or in the other.—(A laugh. )
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that if the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite would only have the patience to wait
eight-and• liirty hours, he :•could have the details for
which he then asked, in the most authentic shape, namely,
in the shape of a printed Bill—(Hear)—for the gentlemen
opposite would either oppose or not oppose the introdue-
duction of the Bill. If they did not oppose the in-
troduction of the Bill, it would be, printed as a matter of
course ; and if they did oppose it, then he had no doubt
that the House would- put down their opposition by a
large majority, and in that case, too, the Bill would be
printed.—(Cheers and laughter )
Mr. CROKER—I appeal to the House whether that
is not a very improper mode of answering my question.__
(Cries of " Spoke.")
Lord HOWICK nettle a few ob!ervations which did not
tea&h,the gallery.

Sir H. HARDINGE hoped that the Noble Lord would
affmrd the House much additional information on the popu-
lation of the borough towns of England, before he called
upon it to give a solemn decision upon this Bi 1. lie
wished to have a return of the number of towns now un-
repi es nted, of which the population exceeded the popu-
lation of Gateshead, South Shields, North Shields, rind
Sunderland. He observed that nix new representatives
were given to time county of „Durham, in addition to the
four which it returned at present. He therefore. hoped
to have some information respecting the grounds which
existed for making these. revolutionary elienges.—(Cheers
from the Opposition Benches.)—He wished to know
whether there were not manufacturing towns of which
the population exceeded that of the towns of Gateshead,
South Shields, and Sunderland. If so, the House ought
to have information on the point, for it appeared to him
to be a little too much that a small county like Durham
should have six additional Meinhers.--(Hear.)
Mr. SADLER was anxious that upon this, as well as
upon all other questions which came before the House, the
fullest information should be afforded by the production of
returns. It was his opinion that partial information was
worse than none.—(Hear, hear.) He would, therefore,
have the returns proposed by the Noble Lord extend to
those boroughs of which tl e population exceeded 5,000.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL-L-Those returns have bten
moved for already, and they are now on the table of the
House, and will shortly he printed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SADLER made some further remarks, but the con.
fusion which prevailed in the Hou-e rendered them inau-
dible in the gallery.

•
Mr. DUNCOMBE (Yorkshire) made a suggestion re•
specting the number of electsrs polled during the last SO
years, but the precise import of it did not reach us. In-
deed, the confusion was so univvr ;al, and the rapidity with
which Hon. members—sometimet, three or four at a time
—rose after each.other in different parts of the House to
may short:Obsiriaions vas so great, that it was matter
of eNtrerne..dißcitltzete disc ever theipt trier to which the
ear was tit 'be, 'directed. and then it often happened that
when that woolens( the speaker was sitting down. We
give, however, the convers.ktion which ensued with as
much accuracy as we can.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply to the last speaker,
said that the returns which Would be before th; Veouse
when his motion wp, grantgd would, with
.those already
cm the table, comprise all the details which related to the
different cities and boroughs in the united kingdom.
mr_ HUME was surpriscd at the very extraordinary
turn which this discussisa had taken. He would acquaint
the Hon. Gentlemen below him, that the usual rule was,
that, if the information given by government to explain
any plan which it brought forward was not sufficient,
Hon. Members, who wanted further information,' moved
f.;r it. From what he knew of the Noble Lord Opposite,
and of the strength of tlit! cause which the NAle Lord had
advocated, convh,ce I that if the Hon. Member
fur i
or the lion. M,inber for Newark, or
n
Hon. ithrnber, should want further informa-
tion, ioo:aititie
or:urg
d'
objection would be made to affording it.
at y:o
Sir C. WETIIERELL had not objected to the pro-
duction of these returns. On the contrary, he wantoi
more inforina ion, fur he was pi epared to charge Govern-
ment directly with having evinced gross partiality in the
information which it had yet given.

An HON. MENnua on the Opposition ',cliche.; (name
tini:aown) ros:: td congratulate the House on one circum-
stance, which gave an air of novelty to this discussion—
he meant the appearance of a Cabinet Minister to`take part
in it.—..(Hear, and a laugh.) He could not help thinking
that the motion for these returns, after the Bill had been
brought in, emanated from the same spirit which had dis-
played itself iu the budget, and which laid it down as a
Principle that men ought to legislate first and inquire afte-
wards•—(Hear,- and laughter.) He contended that the
Noble Lord in moving for these returns now was acting in