The Sun.
London, England, 1836-04-27 00:00:00

„ _...J_.

upon the principles of self election, it slid not follo‘w that be-
cause the majority were Catholics the Protestants would be
excluded. The very contrary was proved by the double test to
which he had before adverted. Was it meant by, was it the
object of, the Noble Lord's (Lord Fitzgerald's), proposition
to place Itoland, as to Municipal institutions, in a situation to-
tally and entirely different to that of England and Scotland?
In the municipal institutions of both countries evils and
abuses were found to exist, and they attempted a cure.
Bills passed the Legislature to remove the abuses and to re-
medy the evils, and now their Lordships were called upon to
attempt no cure in Ireland, but to make short work of it, and
to put an end to the patient. Was this the way to keep faith
with Ireland?—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Was
this the way to redeem the promise made at the Union, that
she was to have equal laws, equal rights and privileges, with
the rest of the empire ?—(Hear, hear.) It was not merely
refusing to Ireland what they had given to England and Scot-
land. It was taking away altogether from Ireland what she
had enjoyed for two hundred years—municipal rights and in-
stitutions. It had been said that Corporations were esta-
blished in Ireland, not for the benefit of the inhabitants at
large, but for special and limited purpoces. If Corporations
had not hitherto in. Ireland been the source of so many bles-
sings and advantages as they had been in other countries, the
present evils were mainly attributable to this original fault, of
exclusiveneness in their Constitution. The progress made in
civilization in the last two centuries by Europe was mainly
owing to municipal institutions. They served to protect the
people against the encroachments of the nobility, and the no-
bility against the oppressions of the Crown, and by giving a
sense of security forwarded the great objects of trade and
commerce. The great argument advanced in support of the
Noble Lord's proposition was, that it would prevent the agi-
tation which it was said must necessarily arise from the esta-
blishment of institutions in which ,all would be at liberty
to propose and discuss whatever they pleased. Now, the ex-
perience of all times, and of all places, proved that the very
reverse was the case. Was it in this country such a doctrine
was propounded—in a state of society, in which, at general
elections, or at public meetings, agitation was expected to
occur regularly, from time to time--was it in such a state of
society they proposed to remove all institutions, that might
lead to intermediate political discussion; to do away with all
corporate officers who, by their authority, and the respect en-
tertained for them, might preside over and direct such dis-
cussions? If meetings were to be held, as they,mtest occa-
sionally, even after the change proposed by the Noble Lord,
would it not be better—would it not be more likely to prevent
agitation—if there was a person to preside who might mode-
rate and controul the passions of men,entertaining different
opinions, who, by his influence, might preserve the peace ?
The advantage of this measure was, that it would have the
effect of diverting men's attention to considerations of local
interest, and to corporate objects, and withdraw them from
dangerous agitation. It was nothing short of the greatest in-
consistency and injustice to tell the Roman Catholics that,
although they had been admitted to a participation of civil
rights with their Protestant fellow- countrymen, they must
not have a vote in the election of a lord, mayor or other cor-
porate officers.
Lord ABINGER said, his Noble and Learned Friend had
expressed great alarm at the notion of stripping corporate
bodies of their property ; but for his pert he did not know what
abolishing one Corporation and giving its property to another
new Corporation was but stripping a corporate body of its pro-
perty.—( Cheers.) He did not, therefore, apprehend the ap-
lication of his Noble and Learned Friend's argument. Sup-
pose a Corporation had property of its own, which i t would be
unjust to take away—could the circumstance of gving it to
the new Corporation after it was taken away in any degree
mitigate the injustice 2—( Cheers.) If it was trust property
the proposition which his Noble Friend (Lord Fitzgerald)
had brought forward was, not to take it from the town, but to
place it in the care of new trustees, who should be appointed
either by the Crown or by a Parliamentary Corporation.—
(Hear, hear.) It had been said that to abolish the Irish
Corporations was a violent, measure. He admitted that
it was a violent measure, and that nothing. could justify such
a proceeding but the most pressing necessity ; nothing but a
very strong case could sanction its adoption. To him, in the
present state of the question, that necessity appeared to exist.
When they once consented to abolish Corporations, they had
passed the Rubicon.—( Cheers.) Suppose they abolished the
present Corporation of Bristol by an Act of Parliament, and
created a new Corporation, was not that, nevertheless, abo-
lishing a Corporation ? If they gave the rights, and privi-
leges, and property of one body of persons to another body of
different persons, was not that apalpable injustice ?—(Cheers.)
If they turned out the old, and put in the new, what compen-
sation could that be to the old ? Would not the new Corpo-
ration be as great a nuisance as the old ?—( Cheers.) If so,
then why not adopt the proposition of his Noble Friend ? If
the principle of exclusion was to be adopted, he thought it
was the Catholics that ought to be excluded; but, by this Bill,
it was clear that it would be the Protestants who would be ex-
cluded. Under the influence of this Bill, the management iif
all Corparate business would be placed in the bands of per Ans
of small property, to the exclusion of those of large pr.dr6ty.
Now, this was a great objection, because property should al-
ways be an ingredient in the exercise of power.
,For his own
part, he did not see that great necessity which aithared to
strike his Majesty's Government for establishing Corporations
in Ireland at all. It wartlio' opisien of Adam Smith, and in
that opinion he (Lord Abiel6r) perfecelyagreed, that Corpo-
rations were more iujurious thus hertArriti to trade. For this
reason, and the other reasons wtiehile had stated. he should
give his support foe the proposition of his Noble 'Friend who
had opened the debateeeee(Cheers.).
Lord HOLLAND said that tlfe Noble and Learned Lord
seemed altogether to have forgotten that the Corporations be-
longed to the towns, and that the principle of all Corporations
was that of a representative government, and that both the
Corporation and the property it held belonged to the town.
In this opinion be was backed by a great authority, to whom
the Noble and Learned Lord would be disposed to pay some
respect. He had heard it objected that this Bill went to
transfer power from one party to another; but what was it
more than transferring the power from the hands of the
attorney to the principal—(Cheers)—from those who had
usurped it to those who had a right to exercise it ? While
speaking of the transfer of power he would take the opportu-
nity of remarking on another transfer that had struck him as
rather extraordinary. He was very curious to know why the
proposition now before the House had been transferred by the
Noble and Learned Lord (Lyndhurst) to the 'Noble foster-
father who had that night brought it forward ?—( Cheers and
laughter.) He was curious to know why the Noble and
Learned Lord had shrunk from the support .r his own child.
—(Laughter.) Ii was possible, however, that the Noble and
Learned Lord did not think it very becoming in one who had,
as the saying was, passed the chair, to propose what, to say the
least of it, was a very unprecedented proceedieg ; a proceeding
which he Vefy much doubted it was competent to their Lord-
ships to adopt. It writ possible that the Noble and Learned
Lord might have some little bashfulness in becoming the exe-
cutioner of Corporations which he had not very long since so
highly extolled in that House. He lead heard of some wise
man who lied said that a year's reading changed a man's opi-
nion materially: Now the Noble and Learned Lord must
have been very studious singe the last autumn. At that time
the House would recollect with ~has a happy pencil the
Noble and Learned Lord presented its them in a sort of
Carlierd ludida the whole procession of lord mayor and
aldermeii ertelyed in their robes and furs, and lamented
their approaching downfall and yet now, without the slightest
remorse, the Noble and Leuerted Lord was for sweep-
rtfeyere, aldermen, Corporations, and all away, with-
dift qiTee rrfetnent's reflection upon their former value.
thq Noble herd did not confine his praises last year to the
English ddreortiiiens only, for be enlarged upon the pride
which men felt in liAling,eorperate offices, and being thus fa-
miliarised to liberty by idel discharge of their public duty.
What, situation had the Noble atii4 Learned Lord now placed
the Hotisd iii by the proposition which he had brought before
it ? It was quite itfegular to move any instruction to it Com-
mittee on a Bill sent till rierli the other House of Parliament.
All the precedents upon the 81thiat showed that such a pro-
eeedinO was not consistent with the v4ftt7,. the dignity, or the
hone& of the House. The only precedents kat were to be
found were tied lit 1•84-4P3. one of which was negetthed by the
House of Commons, and tl?c other in the Committee of their
Lordships' own House. In 103 the' Clerics of the House were
directed to search for precedents u pen This. poi nt, and they found
two only, neither of which established the safety of the practice.
One which had reference to the attainder and impeachment of
Lord Denby, showed the danger of such a proceeding. The
Bill of Attainder had been sent up by the Commons to be laid
on their Lordships' table, and a Noble Lord who was anxious
to save Lord Denby, moved, as a direction to the Committee,
to leave out the word " attainder," and introduce the word "ba-
nishment." The consequence was-that the Commons disagreed
to this, and the flotiee of Lords had a declaration inserted Or!
the journals that the ease of Lord Denby should never be,a pre-
cedent for any similar proteedirtz. The meaning of passing a
Bill through a Committee' vvas, to regulate and complete its
details ; but the Committee had no power to touch the princi-
ple of the Bill, or in the slightest degree to depart from it.
The Leap Parlimenti laid it down that the Committee had
only to deal with the details, and that the third reading was
time for again refing or affirming the principle. The
Noble and Learned Lord did not seem to wish to contaminate
his reputation with this prOpositidn, but left it in the hands of
the Noble Lord, who had brought it forward in a very able
and philosophic speech, such a speech as he believed was never
delivered in the introduction of so monstrous and extraordi-
nary a proposition.—( Cheers.) All were agreed as to the
abuses of the Corporation§ in fret red, but that, was no reason
that they should be swept away Atagether, iTo would say
that Corporations were peculiarly adapted to Ireland, as tend
ing to lead to subordination and a due respect fot the laws. Fie
con::__nded? upon the authority of Dr. Robertson, and en ale
past experiened, tbetetherefotming and keeping up those
Cur
porations in Ireland wag The beet clay to keep down agitatioen
align
He would ask, could any Noble LAI teeny wish the afgeitLatoord
which now pervaded Ireland to continue his
opposite evidently implied that he (Lord Irlati:lci)btahlisis
more
d
friends would in reality be happy at the prospeelt
being withheld from the people of Ireland, that tiereby
the benefit.
agitation might ensue, of which they hoped tiode
He did not deny that the postponement
.wou innjcoryease the agi-
rejoicing at the
tation in that country ; but he was far from
the
eofctohna-t
prospect,. as he felt that it would teiai
thbe
country a practical lesson to doubt both t
and the wisdom
upee '33
stitution in which they sought to p
and authority of that branch of th-earLieg-islature which denied
them admittance. His Noble Friend had
it it _b.
were een taunte
mam.some th.a-
wish to ,‘shake off an engagement, _
I
nary idea; the creation of their own
fancy or policy I But
t an engagement entered it by
he would ask if there
was nto• to Ireland in 1793 e which i s
the Legislature with eeseecet_ _
notrepeated •
bound to follow tip corsister.l ly? Was it
by the Act of Union-es-agent,- by that of Catholic Emancipa-
tion—and was it not strengthened' 'considerably by the mea-
sure of Parliamentary:, Reform, combined with that which

they gave to England and Scotland last year, in the shapedeof
Municipal Reform? The Noble Lewd had cautiously avoi d
describing the principles of the Bill he opposed. They were
those which were already established in England and Scot-
land by the late Acts of Municipal Reform. It had been
sweepiegly pronounced to be a niggardly reform, and yet
it was said to the people of Ireland at the same time that they
were not fit for it, and did not need it. Now lie would take
this
or: him to assert to their Lordships (not, indeed, on his
own knowledge, but on that of others better informed), at
they were fit for it, and were in great need of it. If this
principle of sectarian exclusion were now to be acted on,
the
great bugbear about whom so many frightful stories had
been told--(Laughter)—would naturally agitate his country-
men again and again to trouble their Lordships, saying, We
are not fit company for you I why, then, did you invite 'us to
the dinner ?"--( Laughter.) He thought that many of thesed
ancient Corporations, which in time of great peril had stood
forward to save their country, deserved better of it than to be
destroyed altogether—it would be both ungracious and unwise
to say to the majority of the Irish people, " You have had
Catholic Emancipation, you have had parliamentary Reform,
but you shall not have corporate reform ; and though the law
give it to you individually, and the spirit of the British Con-
stitution would render the reform universal, you shall.not have
it." That was the principle of the instruction. The Noble
and Learned Lord who spoke last had declared that the pre-
servation of the old set of Corporations, or the establishment
of new opes, was thonly choice betwee two puisances. The -
Noble and Learned `Lord had appeared to him at first filled
with the inspiration to sing—
" Darius, great and good,
By too severe a fate,
Fallen, fallen, fallen, fallen,
Fallen from his high estate."
(Laughter.)—But in conclusion he had—
" Changed his tune ;"
(Laughter)—and, at last-
- " Seized a flambeau, with zeal to destroy."
He heartily hoped the House would take it out of his hands,
and prevent the threatened mischief, and help him to see things
as they really were.—(Laughter.) He contended that the -
surest way to prevent faction and sedition was to give the
people a just share of their own Government, and allow them
to know and feel the advantages of conducting it on a good
principle. Allusion had been made to the modes of Municipal
Government prevalent in Russia; but be it right, or be it
wrong, Municipal Government is •the principle of the British
Constitution, and cannot be denied without injustice to that
portion of its subjects resident in Ireland.—(Cheers.) Long
might it remain the principle of that Constitution I and it
would be the most short-sighted policy to attempt to shut
them out from the enjoyment of it, while they declared their
intention to let them in, or (as it had been coarsely but strongly
expressed) " to give them the key while you spoil the lock.
If they succeeded in this exclusive policy, they would leave Ire-
land a field to practices at which the mind recoiled. After
all he begged to remind their Lordships that agitation was,
the true Conservative pripciple of society—(Laughter)--aaa
was a far better medium of preservation for everything and
than the most ancient prescriptive axioms. Their Lord-
ships were great Conservatives just now, for they were agi-
tating most decidedly.—( Laughter.) But agitation might be
right or wrong according to its objects and exercise.
Lord LYNDHURST said that he had already made all
the observations he intended on this Bill, and had, therefore,
given the subject of the instruction into the bands of his Noble
Friend. The Noble Lord had charged him with having, in
the last session of Parliament, advocated the Corporations of
England, and accused him of inconsistency in now wishing to
abolish those of. Ireland. But surely the Noble Lord could
not seriously accuse him of inconsistency in advocating the
preservation of the rights and interests of the Corporations of
England, which were all of a character widely different from
those of Ireland, and were in fact identified with the prin-
ciples, feelings, and interests of the great and respectable
majority of the people. In Ireland it was far otherwise.
The Corporations there were all of a solitary and exclusive
character, and unconnected with the sympathies of the mass
of the population. But, in defending the Corporations of
England, he had never advocated the keeping up exclu-
sive power in the hands of a party. The Noble Lord had
asserted that his Noble Friend had acted in an irregular,
unusual, unparliamentary, and unconstitutional manner in
bringing forward this instruction but he had not attempted
to adduce a single authority or decision to that effect.
(Lord Holland) had stated that, according to the usage
of that House, an instruction might be moved to a Bill
that originated there, but could not be moved on a Bill
sent thither from the other House. Now he begged to set the
Noble Lord right on that point. In 1803 a Bill passed
through the Lower House for renewing the Bank Charter,
and was then introduced to their Lordships, when Lord
Grenville moved an instruction directly opposed to the sp
of the ,Bill, that Roman Catholics should be admitted mem;
hers of the Court of Directors, and the Noble Lord and all
his friends voted for it.—(Cheers.) So much for the point
of form on which the Noble Lord had laid such authoritative
ste3s. He did not understand the argument of the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack. He charged him (Lord Lyndhurst)
with inconsistency in opposing the disfranchisement of the
borough of Stafford, and in advocating that of the Irish Corpo-
rations. Now, in opposing the Stafford Bill he had expressly
stated that he viewed it as a case of individual delinqueneY•
The case of the Irish Corperations was quite another thince-----
(Hear.) They, according to the showing of the Noble 'Nris-
count, were worthy of disfranchisement : but did that Noble
Lord therefore propose to demolish them ? By no means'
He said that it was for the benefit of the towns in Ireland tbas
they should be retained. If he (Lord Lyndhurst) thought
so, he would also vote for the Bill, but believing far other-
wise, and that mischief would be the result, he opposed it.
(Cheers.) Some time since an attempt was made to open tig
Corporation of Sligo by a proceeding in the King's 13e,nea
the result of which afforded a lesson worthy of the consiaer;
tion of the House. The Court decided that it had the pew- ,
but refused to open the Corporation, as it appeared it was.t-,
close one from the first, and had consistently persevered in
original course. All the Irish Corporations had in fact beeci
close ones (with the exception of a few), from the reigns
-
Elizabeth and James the First to the present day. The n, e
tion, therefore, of reforming, or regulating, or renovating thes"
Corporations by the mode laid down in the Bill was an l‘trav
vagant absurdity. The real question for their consideration
was, whether it was more beneficial to vest the management.%
the corporate property in the hands of those whom the tow
might choose, or in those chosen by the Crown. The pro-
poses,
perty consisted of two kinds—funds for charitable purd,
and for the benefit of the town. Government had afr.eda A
vested that for charitable purposes in the hands of indivi u,_.
Commissioners, and his (Lord Lyndhurst's) friends would enti
do the same with the property of the towns, for the beuci_atf.,
the towns. The Corporations are virtually extinguishedoigi
the Bill. He (Lord L.) met-him and acceded to it. lie Woof
liot advocate exclusive power. What, then, should, so
substitute for it ? The supporters of the Bill h ade
Ino reason for setting up new Corporations ; th et,
trary, by their own argument, it would be pregnant
mischief, and nothing good would be. gained Y,,0
But did he, therefore, reject the Bill altogether 7
I he had a great regard for the Bill, and intended tech ravi
the
largely on it.—( Hear.) They had already adeP.sration,
machinery it embodied relative to charities—the admiluseeutio
of justice—the appointment of magistrates—the distriu
of Church patronage, &c. They took the clauses--; taariu
adopted the principles. After these powers and "bat re-
taken from the Corporations by the Noble Viscount,
s7aehi g
mained? The other proper municipal functions of many
paving, lighting, and cleansing are also taken away said the
towns, and given to certain 'Commissioners. But, some-
Noble Viscount, that the new Corporations may hav
reomsoi
thing to do, we will take away these duties from the
11 and
sioners, although the report says they discharge them
asl,lo.b_ter.)
effectively, and give them to the town council.—( there
Was it surprising, then, that they should say::: Hear.")
was no use in creating Corporations ?—(Cries ccupieds
Let the Commissioners remain well and usefully 0
as they arc, and let there be an end of the Corp.orautinoiicisi:
His Lordship looked to the expense of these intendre.ocl
_lf felt
pal arrangementsewhich he was sure would be SC recorder,
in Ireland. There were Magistrate, Town Clerks, a the
and Attorney-General, to be paid, " and other offi '
ereercollected
discretion of the Town Council."—( Hear.)
money matters were to be managed by a party--v(0 ~ be the. that the theatre of these operation was Ireland,HaendoctV btbeessrl
—where, under all the circumstances, jobbing % rewue ot
natural consequences.—( Hear.) Then there wases lay
would in
giving compensation to officers, so that the old (Tree.) The
evitably be turned out to make room for new.—(n
annual elec
arrangements also brought them all the evils °liss made out'
tions, which would require notices to be given, .I'n __ease e
and polling-books prepared—all, of course, at tl triad
te
e_alley
the town. Then watchmen are to be
activitypaid—prov
foe extra allowance—wages and extraordinary
..,er, tb
come out of the borough funds. But where debt others
the 53
funds ?-4 Hear.) Some of their- estates were
had not more than 500 L, and others 1,0001. a the ,I„,abitteit
car-
ries, &c., must, therefore, be paid by rates on for
ot
er,
The town lists were, it appeared, to be
tiality's sake) the first year by the churciliht!(cil°,etnsb,e"dnidsmcioetiseidd
wards by the town clerk of the council, whotr,..n niede
pro"
at pleasure.—( Hea.) A more objectio
ations 13"1,orcl-
scarcely be struck out. The English CorP
vided for the division of the towns into wardsjoracepd,Ziorn
Ba-
ships took care that it should not. come into s P
was completed; but in Ireland, provided the toooru..
meat, the elections might go on without any local
ture from .
due influence, and the-masses of the town
strange dePa` introdu
thing before them. This was as e The 00
principle of the English Bill.—( Hear, heair.e.
wld carry ev the
ejudieiejias'acc of
twit of annual elections, too, was particulardytio
the l"'Llee-oun;
was charged with haying needlessly referre
stated that town licyco
one individual in that country. He had u be be te,
oils would be the seats of agitation and s
,deitriellcft for him in
it, After such a belief what course was ityva hose testillai to
pursue? He had selected au individua.was
the inclivtiee
_f corrobnra,oo Cr
that instance was beyond exception ; that
whom he referred as haying made use
.(O)Pi by 300 or
said by tee
pression. was heard on that oc 1
Vico It was c the be
sons ; could there be a doubt on the su e
nefit of this Bill for amending her muniucr
say
a let hcr,bacvacuse haa
supporters of theßill, wasnot Ireland to. be.e
asui liceorrejci,otroahtiaoslis ?it
;ibiultL
was a benefit he ( Lord Lyndhurstpltiroary. It was a'iel uninixe,
he believed it to be the direct cobnelieve
dit to beioo. undbey
believed so, and also because he
sbr"laels a
the English Act all large townsa
f„ CorporationarLd it is
.:,10
evil, that he should give it his mohsatdlitchaurtiy,oo,.vP.ePres applYieg'. to
petition to the King in Collins tle Act, under '!.?
matter 'of course for his Majesty
e result of that
such ar
s t ' Had 9-" Y ora-
those sanctioned by the principletu
advice of his Council. Whaitatwam.iyilege
uss col,
au
tig' rant it tlic'll poem
What bad proceeded fror,?,t desire to po.sisi had
n°ll d
plication been made ? D a
tgont nn
one n
hadi festapitself i rt,
for it.
hi
to.s e
,N.gur et a ta
single
manifestation