The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-03 00:00:00

~~.

7. Interest at 4/. per cent. on 1,050,0001., to arse
fro -
a saw or perpetuities
,11.13. Of the 1,200,0001. calculated to arise from
of perpetuities by the Ecclessiastical Commis-
Moners (but estimated by Mr. Finlayson, the Govern-
"lent actuary, to amount to 1,507,050/. ), there has
been realised and disbursed by the Commissioners
150,000/ ; but the interest of the residue thereof,
"Mounting to 1,050,000/., will, at the rate of 4/. per
Cent, produce an annual permanent sum, as above
specified.

8. Income of benefices, suspended under the non-
celebration service clause, for the three years to Fe-
bruary, 1833..
-ACT TO ALTER AND AMEND CITURCII TENIPORAI,I-

TIES ACT, 4 & 5 Will. IV., ch. 90.
From 38 dignities, without cure, and 49 pre-
bends, without cure of souls, after deducting the ex-
penses of collection,•and making other abatements
and deductions B,OOO
N.B. This Act provides that in the case of any
Person holding any dignity or office under the rank of
an archbishopric or bishopric, and not having cure of
souls in any parish appropriated thereto, the appoint-
/nett to such dignity or office may, on the next avoid-
ance, be suspended, which is the case of the aforesaid
as dignities and 49 prebends.

£130,840

111. THE PRESENT TITHE BILL.
10. The 77th clause saves existing interests, but
Vests the property belonging to minor canons and vicars
choral in the Exclesiastical Commissioners (some of
which offices are reported by the revenue Commis-
sioners to be complete sinecures) ; and after providing
for such of these offices as have duties, and are neces-
sary to be upheld, authorises the surplus arising from
such estates, amounting to an entire sum of 227624/.,
to be carried to the general fund, which surplus is esti-
mated to amount to 4,000

.1 1. The 79th clause provides that the sinecure
tithes disappropriated from all dignities (having cure)
flay, instead of being given to the vicars or perpetual
curates, if otherwise sufficiently endowed, be carried
to the general fund, under the administration of the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners ; the revenue arising from
which, after making all necessary deductions and abate-
Ments, is estimated to amount to 5,300

£139,140
I. CHußcif TEMPORALITIES ACT, 3 and 4 Will. IV., ch. 37.
Revenues as estimated by Earl Grey to arise from-
1. Produce of suppressed sees
2. Reduction of the bishopric of Derry, immediate
Said prospective 6,160
3. Future reduction of Armagh sec
4. Glebe-house loan instalments, re-payable for the
text 15 years
5. Tax on continuing bishoprics
6. Tax on incumbents of benefices 41,800
7. Interest, at 41. per cent., on 1,000,000/., to arise
from the sale of perpetuities
N.B. Under the Church Temporalities Act, the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners have the power of apply-
ing the principal arising from these sales to meet their
present exigencies, which precludes the possibility of
Itafixing eventually an annual permanent income from
this source.
8. Income of benefices suspended under the non-
celtbreion service clause, for the three years, to Feb.,
1833
IL ACT TO A~•TER AND AMEND CHURCH TEMPORALITIES ACT,
4 aid 5 Will. IV., ch. 90.
9. Not provided fa under the Church Temporalities
Act
111. THE PRESENT TITHE BILL.
10. Not provided for tinder the Church Temporalities
Act
11. Not provided for under the Church Temporalities
Act

£155,840

Revenues as contemplated to arise from the combined pro-
visions of the Church Temporalities Act, the Amendment Act,
and the present Tithe Bill, amount to 139,1401.
APPLICATION OP THIS REVENUE.
The charges which the foregoing fund of 139,1401. is de-
signed to meet will be as follow :-
1. When the churches shall have been put into com-
plete repair, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners report
that the future repair of them will require an annual
Sum of £25,000
Other expenses formerly defrayed by vestry cess,
they state, will require.....
2. Expenses of the commission • lO,OOO
3. Interest on 100,000 advanced the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners in way of loan, at 4 per cent 4,000

£74,000
4. BuifJing of churches, as estimated by Earl Grey 20,000
5. Building of glebe-houses, as estimated by Earl
10,000
Grey
6. To repaymcns of the loan of 100,0001. by annual
instalments, for the ne.xt five years, of 20,000
--
£124,000
There will remain therefore, jo meet deficiencies in
the items as above specified, whicb must increase as
the building of Churches increases ; for the other ob-
jects of the Commission ' • and for the aidditional clerks
which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners are authorised
to employ to carry the provisions of the Tithe Bill
into effect, a residue of 15,140

£139,140

Revenues as contemplated, by Earl Grey, to arise from the
Provisions of the Church Temporalities Act alone amount to
155,840 L

APPLICATION OP TIIIS REVENUE.
The charges which the foregoing fund of 155,840/. was de-
signed to meet, are stated by Earl Grey to be as follow :-
1. The Church cess, including' the repairs of
churches, estimated at L.60,000
2. The augmentation of small livings to 2001. each 46,500
3. The building of churches, being the average ex-
penditure of three preceding years 20,000
4, The building of glebe-houses, which his Lord-
"hip considered very necessary, as not one half of the
benefices were provided therewith

£136,500
5. The expens,,s of the Commission, estimated at 6,000
--
£142,500
There remained, therefore, to meet deficiencies, in
the amounts as above estimated, and for the other ob-
Jects of the Commission, a residue of 13,340

£155,840

The characteristic and distinguishing feature between the
Contemplated measures and the_ provisions of the Church
TemporalitiesAct is, r.ct .s, that the
necessity of appropriating
46.5001. for the augmentation of small livings, as contemplated
Under the Church Temporalities Act, will.not arise under the
Provisions of the proposed Tithe Bill ; so that not only a
arger residue will remain for the building of Churches and
glebe-houses, and the other objects of the Commission, but a
Provision is made for enabling the Commissioners to repay
the
i debt of 100,0001. due by them to the public. When I
have said that
.the Noble Lord opposite has dealt rather hard
with his own measure, I feel that in one respect I am bound
10 defend that measure, as well as the Commissioners, because
_lt must be remembered that when they began their operations,
they found an arrear of vestry cess for the last three tears—
lla3tments evaded, it should be called to mind, under the glu-
t:loos system which the Noble Lord had taken under his pro
leetion. After the statements which I have laid before the
House, I feel myself in a position to contend, that by the ope-
rations of the present Tithe Bill, the financial concerns of the
EcelesiasticalCommissioners, and the objects contemplated by
the Chur.:l3 Temporalities Act, are, to say the least of it, in no
degree deteriorated or injuriously affected. My opinion is that
they will be considerably aided and improved by this Bill.—
(Hear. ) With that Aet this Bill in no w.ry interferes, except
t 4) improve it. Indeed, so strict is the abstinence from all
Interference, that, where funds are still to be deducted from
sinecure dignities, we do not propose to carry this new surplus
to the consolidated fund for the purposes of education, but
11 -
are to be carried to the account of the ecclesiastical fund.
Hear, hear.) If, therefore, after meeting the principle of
the Church Temporalities Act, the Legislature thinks it can
4,nd further surplus revenue, it is quite right to inquire whe-
ther or not a more rational, a more equitable, or higher per-
Doze, cannot be answered in a fresh distribution of that sur-
plus, I say this because 1 feel that whereas one set of par-
" ts provides only for the wants—and most important and
most indispensable wants, I fully admit them to be—of a cer-
'4
,In set, or, if you like the term better, of a segment of the pc-
14Itation_the other set of purses, without excluding that
t'grrtent, provides fur the very important and indispensable
a
nts of the whole population —( Hear, hear.) It was with
"iI feelii that I beard-one particular part of the speech of
1113' ilonou'raMe Friend the Member for Weymouth—(Hear,
hear)—with peculiar gratification. In the justice of
1.41 Y Honourable Fri?nd's admonition, with respect to gene-
education, cordially concur.—(Hear, hear.) I fully
tee with him that it is quite - incumbent upon us to take
tare
that the whole system of national education should be
rtried on upon a neutral and impartial principle.—(Hear,
jalr, hear.) I am aware that several charges have
t.e,,.eLl advanced against the present mode of carrying on edu-
"On in Ireland. Some of these charges have on repre-
oations made to Government, been duly inquired
ill t°, and satisfactorily disproved—( Hear, hear)—but there
otSers for which time is some foundation. I believe,
4,°;vever, that where the el,Zfes are well founded, the defects
e Principally owing to the very .``.adequate means which the
.
aessum.ers as yet have had of ti'roviding properly in-
to-hucted teachers for the schools.—( Hear, ersar.) I have rea-
-141;to think: that several of the statements have been
dell founded.
as to the working of the system, are very tai from
founded. 1 have heard to-day, upon authority on which
oleo) rely, that one-twelfth of the schools in Ireland are in
pi! Pfetestant county of Antrim, and one-fourteenth in the
arse
county of Down.—( Hear, hear.) This, I am
ready to admit, that if the Legislature cons 'nts to en-
pl:7(' and
,eetend the system, and if grounds of com-
plaint and susTicioo should exist, then it will be quite fair to
th,"et that Government or the Legislature, should institute
Cries of
Tll°st searching, inquiries WO the suttlect•—(
tclriTee Bill
to
mere-, hear.") T 1 e other prominent ii;eund of objection
appears to be the alleged low aVU,'-iiste e'42o,unt pain--
%jai Proposed to be assigned by the Bill to the
Ihst etergyof Ireland.
.Upen this point I will first otoseve,
.rouro.e rtainly feel that If I could put all antecedent and sur-
"mg eircumstaucos asile, I could go quite along wit') the

Without I Where the Protestant Population does not exceed, or is
less than
any
Protestants

5 ;0 15 2U I 25
Person .I I I
Persons. Persons. Persons. I Persons

Class 1. I —7—Cass IT. IClass—ill TTEITIT. Class V. Clas3 VI.
41 2.1 . 21 31 23 I 27

With respect to the 41 benefices in the first class, no plea of
necessity can be advanced for upholding any of those bene-
fices, in which there is not a single Protestant ; neither can
it be contended that the necessity arises in regard to the 20
benefices in the second class, of which one contains only a
single Protestant, seven of thvm only 2, three of them only 3,
six of them only 4, and three of them only 5 Protestant indi-
viduals.—( Hear, hear.) And with respect to the remaining
four classes of benefices, if they be considered as consisting,
not of individuals, but of families, and each family to consist
of Protestant parents and two or three Protestant children,
the third class of benefices, as aforesaid, would contain about
two Protestant families ; the fourth class, about ,three ; the
fifth class, about four; and the sixth class about five, or, at
the most; six Protestant families. Now, if such be the exist-
ing state of things in Ireland, it is submitted that the necessity
would not arise of establishing, in any such benefice as afore-
said, a church, glebe-house, glebe, and resident minister, for
the accommodation of two, three, four, five, or even six Pro-
testant families, varying in number from ten to twenty-five
Protestants, when, by the annexation of such benefices, or a
part or parts thereof to the church of an adjoining bene-
fice, as local circumstances may render most advis-
able, and the contiguity of the Protestant inhabitants
may require, the spiritual wants of the Protestants may, by
such annexation, be more conveniently, and therefore more
effectually, provided for than by the erection of a church and
the location of a minister in an extensive parish, where the
few Protestant families live at a remote distance, it may be,
from one another, scattered, as it were, over a large extent of
territorial surface, which in Ireland, is not unfrequently the
case—(hear, hear, hear)—it being remembered that the
question of contiguity, and all other local circumstances of the
Protestants, convenience to the church, &c., are' proposed by
the Bill to be referred, in the first instance, to the Ecclesi-
astical Commissioners for their report, and afterwards to the ec-
clesiastical committee of the Privy- Council, for their adjudi-
cation thereupon ; and this, not merely upon the next vacancy of
each and every benefice, but upon every vacancy in future,
should ulterior circumstances require the bounds and limits of
the benefices to be modified and altered. If therefore, the
number of benefices, as at present existing in Ireland, be 1,385,
and the reasonableness of the preceding observations be ad-
mitted, there are no less than 165 benefices contained
in the six classes of benefices as aforesaid ; so that, if
1,385 be reduced by 165, there will only remain 1,220
bencices—(hear)—for which provision will require to
be made by means of a church, glebe-house, glebe, and resi-
dent minister. But as some of the benefices consist of unions
of two or more parishes, and as the parishes forming these
unions may, from their extent, require to be erected into two
benefices instead of one (as is the case at present), the conve-
nience and contiguity of the Protestants to their respective
places of worship being duly considered, provision has been
made for 'the founding of 1,250 benefices, conceiving that it
may be advantageous to subdivide some of the existing bene-
fices, and to erect new ones. The details of the proposed 1,250
benefices, with the average amount of clerical incomes under
the present Bill, are these. There will be
675 benefices, containing more than fifty and less than
five hundred Protestants, to each of which may be
assigned an income, of 2001., arising from rent-
charge, and 451, arising from thirty statute acres
of glebe, valued at atm* per acre ; thereby making
the gross income required for benefices of this class
amount to— Rent charges £135,000
Glebe lands

Total L.165,373
211 benefices, containing more than 600 and less than
1,000 Protestants, to each of which may he assigned
an income of 3001. from rent-charge, and 451. from
thirty statute acres of glebe, valued at 305." per
acre ; thereby making the gross income required
for benefices of this class amount to—
Rent charges £63,300
Glebe lands 9,495

Total £72,795
190 benefices, containing more than 1,000 and less
than 3,000 Protestants, to each of which may be
assigned an income of 4001. from rent-charge, and
451. from tiQrty statute acres of glebe, valued as
before ; thereby making the gross income required
for benefices of this class amount to—
' Rent charges E. 76,000
Glebe lands 8,550

Total
51 benefices, containing more than 3,000 Protestants,
to each of which may be assigned an income of 5001.
from rent-charge; and 451. from thirty statute acres •
of glebe, valued as before; thereby making the
gross income required for benefices of this class
amount to— Rent eharge5......25,600
Glebe lands.. ..•••• 2,295

Total £27,795
And if to these be added the 123 benefices, containing
less than 50 Protestants; to each of which may
be assigned an income of 100/. from rent-charge,
and- 45/. from 30 statute acres of glebe, valued as
before; thereby making the gross income required
for benefices of this class amount to—
Rent charges 12,300
Glebe lands .. 5,535

Total £17,835

1,250 benefices requiring an entire sum of ..X368,338
thereby making the average net income of the 1,250 benefices
amount to 2941. 13s. 4d. per annum. This being the assigned
income of the Irish clergyman, let us now turn to the inquiry
into the circumstances of the clergy of England. I find by the
return of the English Ecclesiastical Commissioners, that
the number of benefices in England and Wales returned to
the Commissioners, including sinecure rectories, is 10,540 ;
that the aggregate amount of the gross revenue of the incum-
bents of those benefices, in the several dioceses,is 3,197,225/. ;
that the aggregate amount of the net revenues of the incum-
bents of the aforesaid benefices, is 3,004,721/. ; that the
annual average for each incumbent upon the the total gross
income returned, is 303/. ; and the annual average upon
the total net income returned, is only 2851. The net in-
come of the Irish incumbents of the 1,250 benefices will bet
294/. 13s, 4d., while the net incomes of the English clergy
at the present day is only 285/., although the duties of the
English clergy, from the increscd ..number of their congre-
gations, must be heavier and far more onerous than those
of the Irish.elergy.—(l-lear, hear, hear, ) In comparing, how-
ever, the average net incomes of the English clergy with
those of the Irish, under this Bill, it should be observed, in
order to do equal justice in instituting the comparison, that
when 2851. is reported to be the average net iaceme of the
English clergy, no deduction whatever is made from the gross
incomes on account of the stipends paid to their curates, of
which curates the report of the English CormnisSioners states
there are 5,230 employel by the resident and non-resident in-
cumbents, whose stipends amount to a gross sum of 424 695/. ;
so that if the average net incomes of the English clergy be
struck, after deducting the stipends paid their curates, it will
only amount to 244/. 15s. ad„ instead of 285/., as already
mentioned; while the net incoales of the Irish clergy will,
after deducting the proportiOn of stipend payable to the curates
by the incumbents, average at 288/. 16s. 81., under the pro-
posed Tithe Bill;—( Hear, hear.) There is another feature,
touching the character of the revenues of the English clergy,
as compared with those of the Irish clergy, under, the proposed
Tithe Bill, deserving of special notice. The English :Com-
missioners report, ‘• that the pew-ronts have been treated as
ecclesiastical revenue, although a variable and uncertain source
of income ; that in those benefices which of late years came
into existence under the Church Building Acts, or by opera-
tion of other causes, the pew-rents (which are so variable and
uncertain) constitute the sole or principal support of
the minister; that, the three years' average of income
to 1831 may be considered as applicable to a continuine.,
though a variable income ; and liable to reduction by the
failure or defalcation of some of its sources, or by reduction of
rent, or by fresh agreements for the compositions of tithes ;
and they also report that there are a great many outgoings,
which it has been impossible to take account of in the table,
being only occasional, and not admitting of an average ; such
as, calls for subscription towards drainage and embanking,
&e." The result, therefore, is, that the English Clugy can-
not calculate, with any degree of certainty, on the average
amounts of their incomes, as before stated ; owing to one
source of their revenues, namely, the pew rants, being uncer-
tain and variable in amount, and which in mile eises con-
stitute the only source of revenue ; owing, also, sometimaa to
a failure of the crop:, reduction of rents, or fresh agreements
for compositions Qf tithes, which are variable ; and owing to
unctot4irwtliwi manV
occasional outgoings, which did not admit of any average
ben:r7; -Eneland, &ref() degreeof
taken. e, . ,
seems to characterise the perception or •cteilcat
circumstances may contribute to reduce
income,
amounts,e
as already stated. But
w daivtfehetrtrill title. pcfnd4i,on of the clergy,
in
e below•
Ireland i tits e
from the security and certainty which, nr,deF thc-proowd
Tithe. Out, will. attach to the perception of their incomes •
in fu'uie. Froliql,4
certain time in each year, the
i
Irish clergy will be algae FePiFe fr9!P the
Eccle-
The value of the glebe lands is taken as 445, pe
statute acre, as the glebes to be assigned the clergy WI
consist .1,A0,11. of profitable land, rent-free, Which is about the
average c,r0046 irepr
,ofitable debes in Ireland at
I present.

siastical Commissioners a warrant- expressive of the amount
or rent-charge payable to them, regulated, no doubt;
according to ti.e provisions in such case made and rnovided ;
a day, as convenient as may be after the Ist of January, in
each year, will be appointed and notified for discharging these
warrants at the Bank of Ireland ; and until they shall be dis-
charged, the warrants will bear an interest of 13-d. per cent.
per diem on the several sums therein expressed • and, lastly,
the only deduction to which incumbents of benelices, created
under this Act, will he subject, will be 61. in the pound on
the amount contained in the warrants, as it is intended, as part
of the proposed measure, to exonerate the clergy from al
other charges and outgoings ; such as • glebe rents,
schoolmasters' salaries, expenses, of collection, procu-
ration fees, synodals, ece., save and except the • ex-
hibits fees payable at visitations. Independently of the
excess of the average gross and net incomes of the Irish clergy
under the proposed Bill, over and above those of the English
clergy, under the existing regime, if the certainty of the
amounts of income, and of regular periodical payments of the
Irish clergy be alone considered, they are of themselves most
important advantages, which cannot be lightly esteemed, and
which ought not to be underrated in the eye of the clergy, the
Legislature, and the English public.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In
reference to Scotland, I have not been able to procure such
precise returns, as to the average incomes of the Scottish
clergy, as those which I have stated from England and Wales,
and Ireland. • I have, however, ascertained that the incomes
of the Scottish clergy vary from 170/. to 2401. a-year. I will
now proceed to make to the [louse a statement of the average
of population, and number of benefices :

ENGLAND ANT) WALES.—Popuiatio 00
DAhret for Dissenter's, &c., one-fourth 3,625,0 k

(The Bishop of London states the number of
the Established Church es three-fourths,'
• Lord Grey thought it much less.)
SCOTLAND —No deduction is made. .... .
PRESBYTE RIANS—Ut.sTER—(The gross humb r in'
Ireland is 642,35t9
ESTABLISHED CHURCH IN IRELAND

'lOl

c.--g—,4*
(-lig
R 2..:,
2--

The following will show the general results of the foregoing
statement :
• Bene- Alf In- Popu'a. Acres. Square
liees. come. tion. Miles.
England and Wales 10,715 £285 1,014 3,460 5
Sc.)tland
Pr sbyterians in Ulster 2OO 155 2,500 15,003 40
Established Church in Ireland 1,250 995 6SI 10,0 )0 1:3 to 14