The Sun.
London, England, 1831-06-24 00:00:00

LABOURING POPULATION.

The Earl of MALMESBURY was desirous to know if
his Majesty's Government intended, in the course of the
present Session, to bring in a Bill with a view to the em-
ployment of the superabundant agricultural population ? If
so, that Bid should have his support; if not, he would
himself bring in a Bill, compelling the Magistrates so to
provide, where three-fouttlis or four-fifths of the land-
owners were concurrent. At present, one, two, or three
landed proprietors in a large district might set the re-
mainder at defiance. If matters were left in the same
state a 4 that in which they had so long been, a re-appear.
once of the same spirit which had manifested itself last
year might he expected.
Viscount GODERICH denied that the superabundance
of labour was universal. It was not universal in the
northern and eastern parts of the kingdom. He could in-
form the Noble Earl that it was the intention of his Ma-
jesty's Government in the course of the present Session,
to bring forward a Bill on the important subject of emi-
gration ; a measure calculated to relieve the superabundant
population, especially in Ireland.
The E trl of MALMESIIURY strongly recommended
that parishes should be empowered to lease land, and to
employ labourers upoa
it at the standard rate of wages;
for he could see no reason why the parochial rate of wages
should be less.
Lord SUFFIELD was deliberately
of opinion, that no
question which could be entertained by their Lordships
was of superior importance to the present. Parliamentary
Reform itself was only a means of improving
condi-
tion of the people. He believed that parliamentary Reform
Reform
would do great good; but he was not so absurd, and
ndheihad
no doubt that none of their Lordships were so absu as
to suppose that Parliamentary Reform, even if carrtieit to
the utmost extent to which its most zealous advocate,
would wish to see it carried, could at once relieve the
country from every difficulty with which it was threatened.
As to the superabundant population, he knew that it was
not universal, but where it did exist, as in Norfolk, and in
many of the districts of that neighbourhood, why should
not means be adopted to diminish the evils which were its
consequence ? He had good reason to believe (or he
should not be so tranquil on.the subject) that his Majesty's
Government trou!d institute inquiries to ascertain how far
it taiht be expcdieut or practicable to employ the super-

a‘niantlant poptalatfain ai home, He had great confidence
in his Majesty's Government on this subject ; but be trusted
their Lordships would now receive from some one of his
Majesty's Ministers the satisfactory assurance that such an
inquiry would be instituted'.
The Marquis fSALISBURY gave notice that he
would tele an early opportunity of moving the rerewe'd of
the Committee of last year on the sOle!ects
Viscount MELB‘OISPeNE observed, that the answer to
the quentiot, tv'nether or not his Majesty's Government
in'an'aded to bring forward any measure on thin subject,
although it might appear to be simple, was neeertheless
puzzling. If they said that they did not intend to bring
forward any measure, they ..could be charged with being
supine ; if they staid that they had a Measure to brihg for-
ward, the, probability was that eSTe'etatione would be
excited which must be sliseispointed. The difficulty of
the subject Might ha estimated by the length of the period
during which it had been agitated ; by the number of re
ports which had been made open it; by the differences
of opinion which it bad elicited, every one recommending
hie own .noetr‘ain, and condemning the nostrums of other
people. His Noble Friend had that evening in'zitnated his
intention to propose a Bill fee fecilitating emigration.—
He (Lord Mel!Mthetse), on his part, promised to consider
the sule;ect 'vith the greatest attention ; without, how-
o'er, pledging himself to any opinion even ir. Ile
should, however, deceive their Lordships if he were to
assert that his Maietty's Zeoverntrent, had any measure to
propose, ete. Which they relied with so much confidence as
',Sl'ealude other Noble Lords from making any sugges-
tions which might occur to them.
The LORD CHANCFLLOR remarked on the very in-
convenient prectite Which bad lately crept into that House,
anA which vas quite opposite to the usage of the other
ithnse of Parliament ; namely, that of debating at consi-
derable length when there wen ho question before the
House. It wee rent ehrprising under such circumstances,
that Nohle Lords did not stick to the question ; there being
no elueetion whereunto to stick.—(A laugh.) The conse-
i quence was, that the conversation became as vague and
desultory as the gossip at a fire side ; only it was not half
so amusing.—(A laugh.) Deprecating the continuance of
such a dieteeetton when the question was not before the
Elaine, he expressed his perfect willingness to enter fully
into the whole subject whenever it should be brought regu-
larly under their Lordships' consideration. He entirely
concurred in the opinion of those Noble Lords who main-
t lined that something ought to be attempted. They had
no right to despair of success, until they had made the
trial. Even in the present session, short as it would pro-
bably be, something might, perhaps, be accomplished.
The subject divided itself into two branches. The first re-
lated to the removal of the superabundant population,
by affording facilities to emigration. His Noble Friend
had just given notice of a Bill on that subject. The re-
lief, however, which such a measure could afford would
be but temporary. Unless the axe were laid to the
root of the evil, it would spring forth again in its pris-
tine strength. It was necessary, in giving vent to the sur-
plus population by means of eingratien, that measures
should be adopted at the same time to prevent the recur-
rence of the necessity in future. The measure of emigra-
tion could only afford a temporary relief, and that relief
would therefore be very inadequate, unless accompanied by
an efficient measure to prevent the necessity of again
speedily recurring to a similar expedient. The measure
to which he alluded was an amendment in the institutions
for the support of the poor. But to amend the poor laws
was an immense and fearfully difficult task. He had, how-
ever, been making some inquiries into the subject for
several years, and thought that he had some lights about
the mater. He bad spoken to his colleagues on the sub-
ject, and communicated to them his own views as to the
amendment of the system, and he believed there was suf-
ficient agreement among them to enable him to propose a
measure at an early period—not, perhaps, in this Session,
but early in the next. That measure, he hoped, would be
worthy of their Lordships' attention, whether they should
think it a plan to be finally adopted or not. Part of the
measure would be the simplification and consolidation of
the poor laws, with such alterations and amendments as
might be necessary to render the measure efficient for its
purpose. He stated this much in order to show that they
had not been inattentive to the subject. The remedy by
emigration alone would be utterly inefficient, unless accom-
panied with a measure to prevent the recurrence of the evil.
Lord WYNFORD gave notice that on Tuesday he
would introduce the two Bids relative to debtors which
had passed this House in the last Parliament, but not the
other House.
Lord STOURTON said, my apology to the House for
tran-gres-ing its rules was, that any observations I had to
make, of however little weight they may be to-day, would
be still more worthless to-morrow. They referred to the
statements of extreme and appalling distress in Ireland,
and the imminent hazard that without extensive and im-
mediate relief, wide districts would be exposed to the im-
minent danger of perishing under the joint and dreadful
vissicitudes of famine and pestilence. That it was true to
say there was death in our deliberations ! Qui cito dat,
bis dat, that was my maxim, that was my justification
this night for transgressing the forms and rules of
the House by an irregular conversation. The speech
from the Throne, informed the House of the enforcement
of the Quarantine Laws and other wise and salutary com-
mercial regulations. But let not one other precaution be
omitted—namely, that of propitiating the great disposer of
all things, the great God of mercy and of justice, by deeds
of mercy to our own fellow creatures and subjects, and let
us have to say, in imploring mercy for ourselves, in be-
seeching of infinite goodness to avert this pestilence (of cho-
lera) fro it our shore. As we have done our utmost to arrest
the progress of famine and pestilence in Ireland, so do
thou, in thy mercy, avert pestilence from us. My Lords, if
the statements be correct, and I have no reasons for ques-
tioning their accuracy, tales of horror are unfolded,
passing in the south-western parts of Ireland, compared
with which the Grecian Daughter is no longer
tragedy. And now permit me to add, that, when
those who from principles of political economy,
may be most indisposed to afford temporary and casual re-
lief, will find their justifica•ion in the peculiar state of
Ireland, as exposed and laid down in the reports of our
Legislative Committees. What do these reports say ?
Why, that Iralend is in a transition state. But trust not
tray Lords, to my memory; allow me to read a copy of the
report, in the very words of a Committee of the other
House of Parliament. One of these tells us " that the
present difficulties of the situation of Ireland rather appear
to be incidental to a transition from one system to another,"
(and that transition so alluded to, is stated to be from the
cottier system to consolidation of farms,) " than to any
which can be considered as permanent." Therefore, my
Lords, I have a right to say, watch with peculiar care
this transition state, and give temporary and casual relief
under accidental and paving circumstances. The most
inflexible rigorist for non-interference may here be satis-
fied, " and, if in future times, when a more permanent
and better system has been established, and your remedial
measures now in progress or in contemplation, viz., of
bog-reclarnatia, emigratia, redamatia of wastes, and other
prospective remedies, have been in operation, your present
relief, however extensive, cannot be appealed to as a pre-
cedent. You may shew the bogs which you have laid down
in these) our present channels of charity, and say, these were
applicable only to that transaction state in which
Ireland was then placed ; and you have no right to the
same interference in your more settled and improved
condition." To Ireland, in its present state, may be
ap-
plied the story of a person who bad faller& down exhausted
in the streets of Paris. tier complaint was the wolf in
the stomach Two medical men were in attendance upon
her, of wham the one said, the malady was without a
remedy ; the other, that he knew of an infallible cure ;
but that the ingredients of which it must be composed
were at Constantinople. The humane by-stander ex-
claimed—" Then, Gentlemen, as one of you cesceives
this dreadful disorder to be without a remedy, and your
remedy (turning to the other Doctor) is to be fetched from
Constantinople, permit me in the interim to prescribe for
this poor creature. My advice ic, that you will give
without delay a little food to this person, in order to stop
the gnewings of this devouring worm--of this wolf that
is now preying upon the vitals of this unfortunate person."
I say the same—l approve of the remerial measures in pro-
gress to afford a more permanent and effective cure for the
complaints of Ireland. But all I ask—all I prescribe is,
that you will administer without a moment's delay a little
food, a little meal, some potatoes to stop, at least to
assuage, the cravings of this devouring wolf in the stomach
that now is preying, through wide districts, upon the very
vitals of a famished peop'e.
Adjourned till to-morrow.

II 0 USE OF COMMONS, .lu.vE 23.
The SPEAKER took his seat at a Quarter to Four o'clock,
when a great number of Members were sworn in.
Several private Bills were brought in and passed through
some of the stages.
Mr. LITTLETON obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
settling disputed tithes in the parish of Ashton-under-Line.
Colonel Lc_mr.r lima brought in a Bill for enclosing
lands in the parish of Kirby Kendal, which was read a
first time.

Mr. W. GUISE brought in a Bill to repair certain
roads in the Forest of Dean, in the county of Gloucester,
which was read a first time.

Sir NI. W. RIDLEY brought in a Bill kr improving

the toil frotil th Shidds to Newcastle ott.Tyne, whtt.h
wag read a first time.

Lord STANLEY obtained leaVe to bring; in a Bill to
construct a rail Way from 13irkenhead (opposite Liverpool).
in the county of Chester, to the city of Chester.
Lord MANDEVILLE presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Aberdeen against the Parliamentary grant to
the Roman Catholic Collegeq.
Mr. O'CONNELL was glad the petition was presented,
and be would be ready to make a bargain that the contract
to support the Boman Catholic rellbiotl should be put ah
end to, provided the Aotnait Catholics *ere not required
to contribute to the stippot t Of the Protestant religion.
Lord MANDEVILLE presented a petition from the
parish of flollywell, in the county of JHuntingdon, for the
abolition of Negro Slavery, and aIS6 one from St. Ives,
for the tepeal of Coal Duties.
AFFRAY AT NEWTOWN BARRY.

Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the Society of
Wine and Grocer Porters in Dublin, who attributed their
distress to the Union. They stated that before the Union
they could get from 20s. to 255. per week, and that they
had been much injured by the Union between this country
and Ireland. The Hon. Member was of opinion that Ireland
must either have the poor laws or a repeal of the Union
before these distr,tsses would be relieved. He would ask
some of the Members for Ireland whether they had
received any information as to what had recently taken
place in that country, for he learned from the newspapers
of to-day, that from 20 to 30 of the Irish populace had
been shot by the cavalry. While such things were doing
the Government might have Special Commissions, portable
gallows, and such things, but there would be no peace
in that country, until there was a system of poor laws
or a repeal bf the Union. He (Mr. Hunt) was in favour
of the poor laws—(Hear hear)—hut if they were not im-
posed he would join !he lion. Member fur Kerry in the
repeal of the Union.
Mr. MAXWELL said, that he supposed the Hots.
Member in his speech, had alluded to the affrcy that had
taken place at Newtown Barry, respecting which he (Mr.
Maxwell) would state what circumstances had come
to his knowledge. In that parish the Tithe Compo-
sition Act was in existence, and therefire the sub-
ject of tithes could not be a grievance. The clergyman,
a most respectable and humane mm, however, was unable
to get payment of his tithes. He waited on a farmer,
who plainly told him that he would not pay the
tithes, and that he the clergyman might distrain for them.
The clergyman was obliged to distrain, and the sale
was fixed to take place on Saturday. The Magistrates
having learnt the designs of large parties of the people to
collect together, gave orders for the yeomanry to be in
readiness. The cattle that had been put in the pound
were rescued by the people. The yeomanry were sent
to retake them, when they were fired on by
the people, who killed one and wounded several others
It was not until then, and in their own defence, that the
yeomanry fired, and cert drily many people were killed.
lie (Mr. Maxwell) hail known the Magistrate many years,
and that he was a resident in Newtown Barry, and a more
brave and honourable man, or a better resident Magis-
trate than Captain Graham was, was not to be found.
A great deal of obloquy had been thrown upon the
Police of Ireland, both in this House and by the putlic
Press, but be was sure that no men were more undeserving
of it than the Irish Police.

Lord MILTON felt it incumbent upon him, not being
altogether unconnected with that part of the country, to
state what he had learnt upon this important subject, and
he begged that persons on all sides would refrain from
forming any opinion upon this unfortunate occurrence,
merely from ex-Earle statements.—(Hear.) Even though
on the respectable authority of the Hon. Gentleman
who had just spoken, he did not wish to make
any statement, but he first begged to know whether in one
expression the Hon. Member was borne out by facts,
namely, that the yeomanry had been first fired on by
the people.—(Hear, hear, hear, by Mr. Maxwell.) He
would now state the information which he had ob-
tained, but he begged the House not to take
for granted any ex-parte statement on one side or the
other. He understood that it was true that the yeomanry
were in one sense fired at by the people, but not
with fire-arms, merely with stones. That was not
the impression the House could receive from the
expression that the yeomanry had been fired at by the
people. He again begged that persons would nut make
up their minds until further inquiry had been made
—(Hear, hear.) It was a most unfortunate occur-
rence, which, from the tranquil state of the neigh-
bourhood, and from the loyal demeanour of that port
of the country—he having left it but a few days, and
could, therefore, speak to that fact—should allow no Infe-
rence to be drawn to the prejudice of the population.
His Lordship observed, further, that it Lad been whispered
that whatever humanity or whatever merits the Magis-
trate in question professed, it unfortunately hap-
pened that since he had been in the possession of that
part of the country, lie had not been on the happiest
terms with the people. An investigation however must
take place into all the circumstances, as it was necessary
to secure the peace of Ireland, and to maintain the honour
of this House.
Mr. LEADER was aware of the danger of forming an
opinion until full information upon a subject was obtained;
but having taken considerable pains to extend the tithe
compositions in Ireland, in one of which parishes he had
been churchwarden, he roust say that he bad never known
in any parish, where the Tithe Composition Act existed
any kind of disorder or impropriety of conduct.—(Hear,
hear.) This was the first instance stated of any such dim-
order in any of those parishes. He therefore looked
with considerable suspicion at what had occurred, and at
the same time even susp-ndad his judgment, but he had
his forebodings that all had not been fair and right in this
most important matter. He feared that there been an
improper advantage taken, by calling out the yeomanry to
assist in the distress, and he hoped that this was not an
attempt to bring the Composition Act into disrepute.
Mr. LEFROY considered, when the inference to be
drawn from the observation that had been made was that
the clergyman was to be suspected of want of humanity,
precipitancy, and indiscretion, it was his duty to state
that, from his personal knowledge, that gentleman was
incapable of acting in the manner described. One cir-
cumstance appeared to him to place this event on the same
footing as that which took place at Merthyr- Tydvil, namely
that it appeared quite clear that one of the yeomanry
died of a gun-shot wound, and that others had
been mortally wounded before they fired on the po-
pulace. From this it was clear the people had come pre-
pared with fire-arms. If it were not so, then the
yeomanry must have shot themselves. On the whole, there
was no ground for castires any imputation on the clergy.
man or yeomanry. The Hon. Gentleman knew that in
this pet of the country the clergy were under the greatest
difficulty in collecting their tithes, so much so that one
Rev. Gentleman hail been obliged to send his books
to Dublin, to be sold for the support of his family. The
clergy bad not been able to collect their tithes for nine
rnontbs,—they applied to Government, which had told
them they could do nothing for them, but must leave
them to their remedy they had resorted to their remedy,
and now they were to be assailed.—(Murmurs of disap-
probation.)
Mr. LAMBERT lamented that this matter had been
brought before the House before the documents had I.een
obtained, which would enable the House to come to a pro-
per conclusion. Having lived in Wexford many years,
and knowing the loyalty of the people, it would be with
extreme reluctance be could bring himself to believe that the
people had done any thing to warrant the massacre that
had been committed.—(Hear, hear.) He had been em-
ployed to defend the parishioners against the collection
of tithes for three years, and he o as aware that there was
a strong feeling against tithes, but during the whole of
that period net a single outrage had been committed.
(Hear.) He thought, therefore, that Hon. Gentlemen
ought to be slow indeed in coming to a conclusion that
this lamentable occurrence had been provoked. He re-
gretted to find that a disposition seemed to exist in some
quarters to bring on a rebellion in Ireland—(Hear, hear.)
Lives had been sacrificed from time to time without any
apparent justification, and such a course of conduct
must now necessarily be. brought before the country.—
(Hear.) He hoped if there were such persons in Leland
as wished to bring about a rebellion, that they would learn
that the days of rebellion had gone by and the age of re-
volution arrived.—(Loud cht ers, and shouts of " hear,
hear.") The circumstance, he conceived, was not to be
laughed at. In what he had now stated he meant
that revolution if possible ought to be avoided, and the
people not driven to it. But if it became necessary, then
the House was to remember that resistance became a
duty, and obedience would only he a betrayal of duty to-
wards God and man.—(lmmense applause.)
Mr. GRATTAN begged, in Parliamentary language,
and in no way offensive to the Hon. Member for Cavan,
to say that he denied the fact that any clergyman in
the county of Wicklow bad been necessitated to
sell his books for the support of his family. During his
(Mr. G.'s) canvass in Wicklow, he had approached the
county where this affray had taken place, and on that
occasion he did hear murmurs against the clergyman now
so much praised. As to the Magistrate, Mr. Graham,
whose name had also been mentioned, Ire had no
right whatever to call out the yeomanry-._-(Hear.)
It was the first time the yeenaanry had ever been
called out on such an occasion. It was the duty of

the paha to have acted, and he haat no doubt
their interference would have been sufficient. No man
consider him6elf justified in calling out the yeomanry
upon a petty question of tithes. At the same time he
hoped the Itiuse would postpone its judgment, but if an
unfavourable opinion were formed, on any ex-parte state••
ment of this evening, the blame must rest with the lion.
Member for Cavan.

Mr. BLAKENEY was sorry the House had no infor-
mation on this important subject on which it could de-
pend, but still he believed, from the information he had,
be could correct one mistake. If one of the yeomanry was
killed before they flied, that yeoman was killed by a stone
and not a gun-shot. As to the poverty of the c!ctgymen
in this part of the couhtry, he knew that not one in the
county of Wexford had been under the necessity of selling
his books.

Mr. O'CONNELL felt it would not be considered of
him that he bad discharged his duty, if, on hearing that
21 human beings, including the yeoman, had Inst their
lives, be had not applied to Government on the subject.
He bad applied to the Secretary of State, and had been
told that Government had sent Mr. Green, a King's
Counsel—than whom a more proper person could not
have been selected—!o inquire into the whole of the
circum•tances and report thereon. He had intended to
have waited to have seen that report before he brought the
affair before the House. It had been, however, prematurely
introduced by the Honourable Member for Preston, who
no doubt could only have been influenced by motives of
humanity. How deplorable was it that twenty-one human
lives had been sacrificed in a squabble about tithes.
Whatever might be the result of this enquiry,
he would have been glad to have observed (what he la-
mented he did not) on his side the House, something
like regret that Irish blood had been wasted, and the spirit of
the living had not been neglectful of the massacre of the
dead.—(Hear.)
Mr. MAXWELL had only stated what he believed to
have been the facts.

Mr. HUNT, in moving that this petition be printed,
could not agree that the discussion had been premature.
Whether it had or not, he trusted it would have a good
effect. It was but a few days ago they had read in tl:e
public prints of the slaughter of eighteen human beings
at Merthyr Tydvil. Now they had to pei use the melan-
choly details of another butchery of twenty-one of his Ma-
jesty's subjects. A❑ opportunity had now been afforded of
the public hearing something on both sides, respecting
this latter slaughter. Whether the yeoman shot him-
self, as the yeaman did at Chichester, he did not know, but
the fact was, that one score of a Catholic population had
been slaughtered without remorse by an Orange yeomanry.
He sincerely trusted that the result of an inquiry would
be satisfactory, but still he could not but regret that such
a system of havoc should be resorted to.
Sir J. NEWPORT deprecated prejudging such a ques-
tion. He lamented, as much as any one could lament,
the loss of human life that had taken place on this oc-
sion, but he hoped the House would set its face against
such premature discussions.