The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-09 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, Fun. 8.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from
Newton Abbott and Newton Bushel, in Devonshire, against
the duty on coals carried coastwise.
Their Lordships proc':,-ded to ballot for fixing the order in
which Peers are 'to attend to hear appeals.
IRISII• ASSOCIATIONS.

After the reading of the Order of the Day—
The Marquis of LA NSDOWN rose, and said—" My Lords,
I rise, pursuant to a notice I yesterday gave your Lordships, to
move—' That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty,
praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to order that
there be laid before this house copies of all dispatches made by
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland relative to the origin, progress,
and natureof the Religious and Political Societies of that country,
and their consequences.'—l am induced to obtrude upon the
House on this occasion, because I cannot reconcile the assertion
that has been put into his Majesty's mouth, and that we have.
heard in the Speech delivered from the Throne, that outrages
in Ireland have in a great degree ceased, and that she is now
participating. in the general prosperity '•' with the extraordinary
communications annexed to it, that there exists in . that coun-
try Associations whicli have adopted proceedings irreconcilable
with the Constitution, and calculated by exciting alarm, and by
exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of society, and
to retard the course of national improvement;' followed by a
recommendation to the Legislature to adopt, without delay,
some mean's to remedy this evil. I also rise in consequence of
the observations of the Noble Earl. oppesite, in answer to a
question I yesterday put to him, which conveyed a refusal to
laybefore the House the documents that have been received on
this subject ; and I feel that, combining all these circumstances,
the House is placed in a situation quite singular.—l might
almost say unprecedented. Unprecedented, because, as far
as my recollection serves; I do not remember a single instance
in which, even in a time of war, and when war surrounded us
with dangers on every side, the House was called upon to in-
terfere with the liberties of • the people, before a Committee of
Inquiry had been appointed, and before the production of
documents which must show the necessity for so interfering. Be
it recollected that this proposition does not respect any particular
class of his Majesty's subjects, but professes to embrace all—to
bring all into a situation in which they are not now placed ac-
cording to the law on the subject. There certainly does not ap-
pear to be any distinction to be made between this country and
Ireland. It is made evident that the proceedings of the Society
to which I have referred, whether or not those proceedings be
strictly legal, have imposed on his Majesty's Government the
necessity of making inquiries into the subject : but the House
is called upon even without any inquiry.: if I'd° not succeed
in the motion I bring before the notice of your Lordships, the
House is called- upon, without knowing any thing of the evil,
to provide a remedy for it, to prevent the danker when no dan-
ger is to be apprehended—when we are not only free from dan-
ger, but when the period is one of increasing tranquillity--
when there is no fear for the future, and when there is none
existing in the present—when all parties unanimously join in
praising the tranquil state of that country—when it is asserted
this extraordinary necessity exists. This tranquillity has been
accounted for in different ways by the various parties concern-
. ed: -The'Cathelic Association say it is owing to their exertions
that-tire. Present peace of the country is so nianifest. The friends•
of the Loid Lieutenant say, and perhaps they say justly, that it
is-owing to. his continued carer The friends of his Majesty's
Ministers say that•it is owing to the rigorous measures which
(hiring the last few years they have carried through Parliament;
and perhaps the Gentlemen of the other House may say, that
it is to the many amendments they have introduced into those
measures that we owe the peace of the country and its ha-lip,'
consequences. However different those opinions may be as to
the cause, all parties and persons are agreed in the fact, that
theie is not in Ireland any body of persons willing to disturb,'
the public peace,,or, what will answer my argument:equally'
well, able to do so. Is this the nioment then for us to tell the
public that we are under the necessity, even without inquiry,
to create new limitatimis to, and net* restrictions on, the liberty,
of the subject, without giving time to ascertain the danger
against which we are called upon to provide? But persons have
told us that this inquiry is unnessary, because of the notoriety
of the facts. 1 must confess that- if at any one moment, or on
any one subject, I ever thought it wrong to use this right •of
notoriety, 1 do now think it wrong, because on this subject.
persons are so likely to be misinformed, and to be in error. A
circumstance has occurred relative to the proceedings of this
very Catholic Association, and it has occurred within a few
weeks, which bears me out in the observation I have made.
Tire persons who were in error are not those of this country,
whose information must have been necessarily limited; but
they are the actual Law Officers of Ireland ; able men—who
are all well known to be so ; yet so completely were they mis-
intornied as to what took place in that Association; that they
were induced to go to the tribunal of the country; and prefer a
charge against an individual for uttering seditious expressions.
But what- was the consequence ? So little were they prepared
with their statement and their, "evidences, that when the Mat-
ter came to be investigated—not by a petty Jury, but by a
grand jury—they were not borne out in their charges against
• this Member of the Association: It is impossible not to per
ceive that if they had been well informed of what had actually
taken place, they would not have gone before a grand jury, and
subjected themselves to such a defeat. There is a great ten-
dency in Ireland, among all parties, to exaggerate whatever
takes place in .that Association, and men may easily be misled
by their feelings to misinterpret the words uttered there. I will
say to your .Lordships, that those exaggerated reports—the
vague statements you may have heard, • and the newspaper ac-
counts you may have read, should not induce your Lordships
to engage in so very delicate—l may say so very difficult—a
task, as the resolution to attack the liberties or the pursuits of
. the people, and the rights they possess under the laws of Eng-
land. I ask your Lordships to agree and to be satisfied on these
points. Its the first instance you should satisfy yourselves as
• to the existence of the great evil you are called upon to correct
in the second place as to the nature of this evil ; and in the
third place, and above all, you should satisfy yourselves, that
in extinguishing this evil, or in attempting to extinguish it, you
do not create another, and a far greater evil than the one you
are attempting to put down.—(Hear, hear !)=To be satisfied
on each of these points, you must require the dispatches that
have been made by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on the sub-
ject. When you consider how difficult it will be to provide a
remedy, you must consider how necessary it is that you should
receive information from those who have the best opportuni-
ties of .knowing what the evil is, and how far it extends.
The information that should be laid before your Lordships,
should be taken from the mouths of those persons whose more-
especial duty and interest it is to attend to the matter. You
are about to engage in a task, of which, I think, even with
information, but I ant sure without it, although you may see
the commencement, no man can tell what will be the end.—
(Hear, hear !)—The Noble Lord on the Woolsack, I say the
Noble Lord on the Woolsack, because every man must know
under whose auspices the Bill will be introduced, and must
be quite certain that so delicate and precious a piece of work-
manship as I will'show it to be, can be placed in no other
hands but his. I say that Noble and Learned Lord will require
all his ingenuity, and no man can rate that ingenuity higher
than I do, to perform the task. if the object of the Bill be to
extinguish the Catholic Association.—.the Catholic Rent of Ire-
laird as it is called, 1 ask if' the Noble and,Leerned Lord can
do this without destroying the ordinary relations of society ?
Can he prevent people of any description from enjoying the
confidence which others are willing to confide in them ? If
they be willing to receive money which others are ready to give,
can he prevent this? Is he able to intercept opinions between
one man's mouth and another man's heart ? Can he prevent
one person from putting in his pocket that which another per-
son hands to him ? If he cannot do this, he can do nothing
and if he does do it he will do worse than nothing, because he
will engage in what I will call a legislative conflict. But I will
endeavour to shew.youe Lordships, because it is important to
consider the difficulties, what those difficulties are. I presume,
indeed, from whati know, from what passed in this House on
another occasion, that the Noble Earl who is anxious to bring
this Bill through this and the other House, will tell yOur Lord-
ships, that it is not to be a substantive Bill, but an amendment
of the Convention Act. But there hi this difference between
them, and your Lordships will do well to consider it : the Con-
vention Act touches on tangible objects, but this bill touches '
014 objects that are not tangible. This bill relates to delegations:
I will not trouble your Lordships with any observations as to
whether delegations be or be not injurious to society : but I.
knOw, that under different circumstances they may be service-
thought that delega-
tions thattry some
hasrn men—anti
.those men are among
produced—have
service-
able eb;esaintcill
Lions in times of grievance are the better methods of obtaining