The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-15 00:00:00

PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.

Mr. H. DRUMMOND gave notice that, on the first
Tuesday after the holidays, he should move the follow-
ing resolution:—" That a greater amount of taxation
was levied on the people of this country than was
necessary for good and efficient government ; and
whereas large sums are extended for supporting need-
less places and extravagant salaries, and the pre-
sent taxation of the country presses he.►vily on all
classes, it is expedient that this House should forth-
with adopt means for reducing the expenditure of the
Government."—(Cheers.)
OFFICERS IN THE ARMY.

Mr. EWART moved for a copy of any instructions
which may have been issued by the Commander•in-
Chief respecting examinations to be required on the
admission or promotion of officers in the army.—
Agreed to.
DENMARK AND GERMANY.

Mr. DISRAELI said he inquired of her Majesty's
Government, some time back, whether, in consequence
of the recurrence of hostilities between Denmark and
Germany, they had any objection to lay on the table of
the House copies of the negotiations that had taken
place; but the Noble Lord stated that, notwithstanding.
the recurrence of hostilities, the negotiations were still
pending. He (Mr. Disraeli) took this opportu-
nity of now inquiring from her Majesty's Government
whether those negotiations had been pursued under the
mediation of the British Crown,ard whether any negotia-
tion had been broached by her Majesty's Government to the
Plenipotentiaries of Denmark and of the Central Powers
of Gerrnany,and whether that proposition had been ac-
cepted by both or either of those pow ales ?

Lord PALMERSTON said that the proposition for a
limited armistice was still under consideration; and
as that was so, he felt it would not be fittivg for him to
go into particulars.
THE BISHOP OF HONG-KONG.
Mr. OSBORNE said he had noticed in the
Gazette that Hong-Kong had beets erected into a
bishopric.--(Laughter.) Ho wished to inquire of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hawes) what was the amount of
the bishop's salary, and from what fund it was proposed
to pay the Bishop of Hong-Kong; secondly, whether
the outfit, and transport, and palace of the bishop, or any
part of his expenses, were to be defrayed from the public
Exchequer of this country?
Mr. HAWES begged to state that it was quite true,
as the Hon. Member had represented, that Kong-Kong
had been created a bishopric--(Hear, hear)—but
the bishop was paid from the Colonial Bishopric
Fund—a fund entirely private, and arising out of
private contributions.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) his
salary, therefore, was of no importance to the House, and
was in no part paid out of the Exchequer. Neither had
the Colonial-of ice any knowledge of the Bishop's outfit.
It had hitherto been customary for the Government to
pay a Bishop's passage out, and he did not think that
rule would be departed from in this instance.

ANNUITY TAX (SCOTLAND).
Mr. COWAN inquired when the Government in-
tended to bring forward their promised measure upon
this subject. The report of the Commis*ioners appointed
to inquire into and report on the subject had been pre-
sented some time.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the report in question
had only been recently received. The propositions con-
tained in it were now under the consideration of the
Government, and so soon as the course to be adopted
had been decided upon leave would be sought to intro-
duce the Bill.

Mr. COWAN—Cannot the Noble Lord " fix the
day ?"—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL intimated that he could not.
THE MARRIAGE BILL.
Mr. STUARP WORTLEY referred to the conversa •
tion that had taken place with respect to the fixing of a
day when the adjourned debate upon the Bill could be
proceeded Nvi tb , and moved, with that view, that orders
of the day have precedence of notices of motions on
Thursday. the 7th of June next.

Mr. OSBORNE moved, as an amendment, that private
motions and orders have precedence of orders of the day,
on Thursday the 14th of June next. If the Ministers
did not intend to bring forward any more measures,
he was satisfied they ought to give back the Thursdays
which they had taken from the House, as several Hon.
Members had several important measures to bring for-
ward. For instance, an Hon. Member had had a motion
on the books for /mice intervention for the last three
months, and had repeatedly baliotted during that time
for a day, and he had been ballotting for the last six
weeks for a day on which he should be enabled to bring
on his motion with respect to the Irish Church. The
taking of the Thursday by the Government prevented
any private Member from bringing forward any motion.
The SPEAKER having put the motion,
Mr. DISRAELI said, notwithstanding the reasons
adduced by the mover of the amendment, instances had
occurred of lion. Members not availing themselves of
the opportunities afforded them of bringing on their
motions. For instance, the Hon. Member for the
West Riding was called upon to proceed with
his motion, but he declined to do so, perhaps on account
of the present state of Europe.—(Laughter.) These
days having been liberally given up by the House to the
Government, which would otherwise have been at the
disposal of private Members, it should he thought be left
to the feeling of her Majesty's Government
as to restoring them. If it was understood
that the Government did not intend to
bring forward any further measures—(Laughter)—he
thought they should appropriate more days to the use of
private Members, which were certainly granted to them
for other purposes than the one assigued.—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY drew attention to the fact, that they
had only proceeded a little way with the Committee of
Supply—the miscellaneous estimates, for instance, were
not yet upon the table—and that whilst this was the
case it would, not be well for the Government to give
up the day in question. The Government should not
give way because important measures had yet to
he introduced by Hon. Members ; indeed almost
every Hun. Gentleman considered that his own
measure was the most important of al!.—(Laughter.) If'
the Government gave way they would get into this state
—that on every night when they ought to go into a
Committee of Supply, private Members would bring ou
their motions, and the real business of the Government,
and of the country, would in consequence be postponed
sine die.

Mr. COBDEN denied that he was called upon at an
early hour to bring forward his motion. He wag not
called upon till a quarter past eleven, and he put it to the
House whether that was a proper hour to bring forward
a motion of so much interest and importance to the
country.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear.") Government,
in his opinion, ought to give up one of their nights
to the Marriage Bill. It would be far more
convenient to them to do so ; for if it were taken on a
night appropriated to independent Members, many
motions would have to be moved as amendments on
going into Committee of Supply.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN,
Lord J. RUSSELL said be felt great objection to an
order of the day being taken first on a motion night,
while he felt equal objection to breaking through the
rule which the House established before Easter, of giving
up every alternate Thursday to Government.—(Hear,
hear.) The Honourable Memb,r for Middlesex and
the Honourable Member fir Oxfordshire had made some
ooservations with regard to the pntent state of public
Bills. Now he begged leave, in the first place, to say
that it was not to be inferred that the number of Bills
before them were all that it would be thought necessary
to introduce in the present session. It was not to be in-
feired that Government had no other Bills ready—
(Hear, hear) for it had been cJnsidere.l more
conducive to the dispatch of public business
not to introduce a great number of Bills at once, so that
the House might the more easily confine its attention to
the measures immediately under consideratiou.—(dear,
hear.) Then with regard to supply, the Hon. Member
for Oxfordshire was quite right in stating that they
were late with many votes of supply, but with respect to
the votes relating to the army, Government had been
waiting to see whether the Select Committee appointed
by the a ouse would make any report upon this branch of
the supply. He had now, howev, r, a communication from
the Committee, stating that they should not be able to
make an early report, and, therefore, Government was
now in a position to proceed regularly with the
votes of last year. Ile should wish, therefore,
as soon as the House had disposed of some early ques-
tions of pressing importance, to ask the House to con-
sider the question of supply.—(Hear, hear.)
Having said thus much, he hoped the House
would not break through the arrangement made
before Easter. He had already suggested that the
Marriage Bill might be taken on Wednesday, the 6th of
June, or if the Right Hon. Gentleman preferred it he
might take Wednesday, the 13th, when Government
would be willing to forego their orders of the day.
Mr. OSBORNE said, of course, after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord, he should withdraw his amendment.
The amendment was accordingly withdrawn.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said he would take Wednesday,
the 13th, and withdraw his motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
STATE TRIALS.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the minutes of
the arguments taken before the House of Lords in the
case of the Queen a. Smith O'Brien were ordered to be
laid on the table.

LAND IMPROVEMENTS AND DRAINAGE
(IRELAND) BILL.

On the qnestiou for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. ROEBUCK said before the Speaker left the
chair he wished to take the opportunity of addressing a
few words to the House on the subject of Ireland. He
wished to express his opinion with regard to the honesty
—if he could attach the word to such proceedings—of
the Government measures relating to Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Having paid great attention to the pro-
ceedings of Government with respect to that
unfortunate country, he was unable to give them any
praise, because they did not inform him what Go-
vernment intended to do with respect to Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.) Money had already been spent
laviahly for the purposes of that country, and they
were now called upon to expend more under the plea
that Ireland was in a state of distress.—(Hear, hear.)
Ireland had been in a state of distress of this sort for the
last three years—(Hear, hear)—and he did not dispute
it.—(Hear, hear.) They were all by this time well ac-
customed to it. —(Hear, hear.) A remarkable
description, however, of distress had arisen in
Ireland in consequence of the failure of the potato
crop. Some three years ago the Government of
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite was informed of the
probability that there was about to be a famine in Ire-
land—that the potatoes were likely to be destroyed in
Ireland—and that those who lived upon the root would
be unable to maintain themselvt.s.—(llear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth,
fearful of the uulavourable aspect before him, proposed
the repeal of the corn-laws, which he succeeded in
Carrying. Had the Right Hon. Baronet not succeeded,
he thought the peace and tranquility that now reigned in
the country, and the comforts now felt and enjoyed
throughout a certain portion of the community, would
not have been seen at the present time.—(Hear, hear.)
There was the provident proposal of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir Robert Peei) which saved Ireland from the
dire calamity with which Providence had visited it.
The Right Hon. Baronet, however, seceded from the
post which ho held, the Noble Lord (Lord John Rus-
sell) succeeded him. Now, what did the Noble
Lord do ? The landed proprietors had been
wasteful in their expenditure, they had been accus.tomed
to go far beyond that which they derived from their pro-
perties, they had burdened their properties in order to
maintain their vanity; and they did one thing more,
and here was the sore spot of Ireland—they divided
their properties into small holdings, and the te-
nants to whom they were let were only able
to pay their refit by living on the lowest species
of food which man could derive from the earth—tie
potato. At length that unhappy accident arrived by,
which the potato crop failed, and the landed pro-
prietors were found in this condition—they had an enor-
mous population upon their land who were accustomed,
as he had said, to live on the very lowest species of Toed,
suddenly deprived of their means of subsistence ; and
the Noble Lord was called upon to meet that extraordi-
nary emergency. Now, what did ho do? It was not every
one in Ireland who was in distress, but he would take
it that a large portion of the agricultural population
were. Now how much money had they expended
already, and in what state had they left the population
or Ireland ? When he spoke of the Irish population,
he meant from the highest to the lowest, becan e he
did not find a particle of difference between any of them,
and would say, with respect to the population
generally, that there wu a detain to acquire MO).-

out labour.—(Cries of "Oh ! oh !") It was all
very well to .cry " Oh ! " but it was they who should
make use of that cry to those who would not pay.
That demoralisation extended to all portions of the
population, and if he wanted any certain means to de-
monstrate the demoralisation which existed among the
Irish people, he should desire no better documents to
prove his case than those returns which had been made
of the manner in which the loan from England bad been
expended.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") If their
generosity had been expended for the poor, or if it had
been laid out to relieve their necessities, he would be one
of the last to complain; but it was not the poor
who were relieved, for the money went to bolster up
system which was in the highest degree injurious to
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The tact was, that the treasure
had been poured from this country into one vast golden
heap, and there was a regular scramble amongst all
classes to strive who should get the most.—(Hear, hear.)
It was just such a scramble as he had seen to get into the
opera—a struggle who should soonest arrive at the heap,
and who should get most of the treasure.—(Hear, bear,
and laughter.) He would tell them what it was.--
(ilea:, hear.) It was nothing more nor less
than an attempt to live upon other people's labour
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and " Order, order")--
a total want of that independent spirit, ho might call it
of that enthusiastic desire, to realise a livelihood without
the labour that was necessary to earn it.— (Hear, hear.)
lie had, however, heard one Irish Member open his
mouth upon the subject of Ireland, but there was a coil'
bullet cry of somebody must do something, but that
somebody was never toemselves—(" Hear, bear," and
laughter.) What he asked, then, seas it they intended
to do and when ? Did they intend to allow: the
Irish to help themselves?—(Hear.) He had been contin-
ually told that English legislation interfered with Irish
legislation. He wished in this case most certainly that
it had; and he would affirm that if the maintenance of
Irish poor had' not been thrown on the British people,
that the Irish people would soon maintain their own
poor, and that there would then be no further appeal to
England in the name of religion. The whole fact was,
that this was the case of the Irish proprietors—and a
very Irish sort of proprietorship it was—proprietors
living upon the rents of lands to which they had no
more right than he had who did not possess a single
acre.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Among all the Midi
complaints he had , never heard of any complaint
from any Irish proprietor of being directly over.,
taxed—(" Hear, hear." and laughter.) If a land"
lord; was reputed to have 10,000/. a year, and bill
estates were mortgaged to the extent of 9,0001., you
never heard an Irishman asserting that he had only
1,0001. a year to live upon, notwithstanding the alleged
griping influence of the new poor law—(Hear, hear.)
Ali that must now be stopped. But when the difficulty'
was propounded, and he complained of the draught
from the taxes of Britain, all the reply he could ob-
tain from the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the
alternative of a rate in aid.—(Hear, hear.) Last
Friday, he thought it was, be had heard the soft re-
medy of the Attorney-General propounded in a speech
which had certainly captivated his imagination, but
which had certainly failed to convince his judgment.
He had desired to avert all the evils of Ireland by
an amelioration of the practice of the Courts of
Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) And such was the end. The
fact was, the whole fault arose out of the faulty mein'
sures of the Ministers of the British people. The evil
lay in their legislation. The only justification for one
bad act of legislation was that it was made
necessary by two others that were worse, which
had preceded it. As an amendment, and be pre-
sumed some pretence for justification for the line of con"
duct the Ministry had pursued, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer told him that he expected to get the
whole of his money back.—(Hear, hear.) BY
what law, he would like to know, would
they would be able to do that; and if they did it would only
be an aggravation of the evil of which he complained+
and a permanent increase of the miseries of the
people of Ireland. Eventually this money would
prove a national incumbranco, and he for one would
be no party to nixing the British people for the support of
persons who refused to labour for their own subsistence.
.talk of capital! He (Mr. Roebuck) did not deny the
necessity for making roads in Ireland. Why did they
not offer 15 or 16 millions for making roads in Ireland
when it was proposed three years ago by
Lord George Bentinck ? instead of dribbling on
day by day under the pretence of supplying
the miseries of Ireland. The one and the other was the
same ; it was the application of the funds of the country
to individual enterprise. In that case it was a large and
well-conceived scheme ; and if they were to apply the
money of tile State to general purposes, he (Mr. Roe"
buck) would rather have voted, for the plan of the Noble
Lord, now deceased, instead of the present procedure;
He (Mr. Roebuck) was told " you got your money back:
That was no answer to his question ; be was out of his
money when he paid his taxes; and he asked what Was
the concerted scheme—taking it as a scheme—which the
Government had when they brought forward this single
measure for the relief of Ireland? He would allow that
the,Chancellor of the Exchequer every now and then took
the opportunity of asking to give a deal of money
for the Irish people. He allowed that ; but why, .he
asked, could that money in any shape be considered as
means of employing the starving people of Ireland ? Ile
asked the common sense of this country, if it was not
under the guise of asking for money to support the
poor of Ireland that they were lending money
to the landed proprietors ?—(Cries of
Hear, hear. )
Did any body believe that 300000,000/. could in any
way relieve the distress of the country ? Now, he would
ask, what ought to have been done?—(Hear'
"
hear)—
and he must say, as far as regarded Irish Gentlemen in
that House. it was a question that he had often asked
of himself—What would they do for Ireland?---
(Hear, hear.) One talked about the area of tax-
ation being too large. Ile heard a conversation
bandied about that House this very day. One Iloe•
Gentleman asked the other, " Did you not go to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to ask to have these people
paid ?" "To be sure I did," said the Honourable Mein'
her for Dublin. (Laughter.) That Honourable
tuber used a happy phraseology which he (Air'
Roebuck) would in vain attempt to imitate ; but
it marked the feeling of the Honourable Member
so strongly that he (Mr. Roebuck) should never forget
it. "I wanted to have a pull at the Chancellor of the
Exchequer," continued the lion. Member for Dublin;
but when the pull at the Chancellor of the Exchequer
failed when they found the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not bite, an Honourable Gentle'
mini opposite said—" Let the corporation of Dublin
pay." " The corporation of Dublin pay ! Why you are
a set of cormorants"—(Laughter)—said the Hon. rdern,
ber for Dublin. [Here Mr. Roebuck so happily
e
imitated the Irish brogue as to elicit roars of
laughter.] "You are a set of robbers," said
the Hon. Member fur Dublin. Now what was the
meaning of that language of the Hon. Gentleman'
Why, that he was the advocate of those gentlemen who
wanted compensation. But there was a Right Honour-
able Gentleman who came from Yorkshire, and he
said, " Not at all; I am not willing to permit .yet,',
to have a pull at the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Fie would not say more; but they quarrelled among
themselves.—(Laughter.) They were told that it was!
regular practice to have a pull upon the Exchequer, bel
that the debt was a dishonest one when the landlords hs"
to pay it themselves. He took a lesson from what had oe'
curved at the debate, and determined they should also de'
rive a lesson from it on the first opportunity, They came
there to have a pull upon the Exchequer, and that Bill
he termed pulling upon the Exchequer. The Exchequer
was filled by our hard-working countrymen, men wb,.
°
laboured at their vocation with an honest and upright
spirit—with a virtue, lie must say coolly, with
an indignant virtue; and when they cons"
dered the demands thus made upon the pro-
needs of their labour. He had of late seen the
working men of England assemble in their thousaht,
and he told them, though they had been often
misled,
that the first voice he should raise in the Commons e:
England would be against the rapacious desires of the_,
extravagant landed proprietors and gentry of Irelsow
But, in the strict sense of the term, they were not
landed proprietors ; let them, therefore, get rid el
the name; let them go abroad and earn their own sub"
s:stence; the land does not belong to them, and the rate
ought not to be paid to them. Let them act like Weil
whose capital was in their bare hands.—(Hear.) It ryas
on these grounds that be entered his solemn protest
against this Bill, which was part and parcel of the
mischievous policy adopted by the Governinee4
in which he saw nothing that was likely to redeem froze
a renewal of the same tax hereafter. Many country
gentlemen were around him—what did they say to he,
called upon year after year to feed the Irish nation? .6!,
the harvest neared the prospect blackened-11
the next few months wore on they wol
hear more of the awful sufferings of w
people of Ireland. Hero they had been four Years
~f
legislating how to meet the deficiencies and defects Z
the harvests of Ireland. Four years ago the Right
; e
,
'
Hun. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Peel) told the land'
lords of Ireland that unless they set about in earnest toe
cultivate the soil, the evils the House was then
Buy
seeking to cure must recur hereafter. '''o
instead of obtaining the aid of practical nie
and tilling their fertile land, the advice was not ache
upon. What was given to the poor was seized by the
rich; and the consequence was that the people of Bnc
land had become disgusted.—(Hear.) A reveres
friend of his was implored by the minister of a parish
Ireland to solicit contributions from his flock in oat' -
the suffering people of the parish. He did se,
and transmitted over a small sum, but a large one, ,C01,1t:
sidering the means of the people who. contribute",
What was the reply? " God bless you for your on
ritable donation—we are quite happy—all the rents are
paid!" Why his friend sunk almost into a swoon.
(Laughter.) Was it for this that he had begged from de"?
0, door, preaching charity to men, women, and children?
No! It was to relieve the starving people of Irelatt--as
not to pay the rents of grasping proprietors. It "0..
taken by those who ought to have been the almoner', 'rat,
stead of the receivers of the gifts. If such a court,
were pursued they would dry up the sources of ober'er
would
altogether—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—nod he tent.
be amongst the first to preach with that ittuo
The Government must originate a better and
ad
rigid system of the dispensation of the money thuse,
yarned. If they did so Ireland might be retrlevue:_d,
fit
two years; and England, in any future period of nee
d+
not
would not fail in her aid. If the Government _
do this, such Bills as these, owing to their inefbol
would be only treated with scorn and contumely.war,d
Air. J O'CUNNELL said they
by the newspapers for some time back that
mthoulf.o,
belt was about to fall on them, and it had Cr)_.
had beaen.
_Auer.
them that evening from the lion. Member foo,.S1124:00.
id a eeech characterised by all therimaces t
" Order, order," " Chair, chair.") member for
thank, and all the spite of a baboon.—(Loud cries of
The SPEAKER informed the Hon.
Limerick that the expressions he used with
urcaruse
the Lion. Member for Sheffield were quite P
mentary, reference to

i'

Mr. J. O'CONNELL said he should regret the use of
any language that was unparliamentary, and should,
therefore, withdraw that expression. But the Hon. Gen-
tleman spoke of persons Emilie.. themselves gentlemen.
Was it right that a Member should insult his Irish
fellow-Members without some stop being put to it? The
Hon. Member had made a comparison between the two
countries, but he would ask were there any
schools in Ireland in which there were children
who were ignorant of their Redeemer, and who knew
not the way of salvation ? Had they, in Ireland, any
professors of political economy who wrote for
public newspapers which were patronised by the
Government, and who held out the blasphemous
doctrine that the people of Ireland should be starved
down to what the diminutive capital of that country
could allow for them, and that they should not interfere
with the will of God, who had visited upon them a great
"'amity, or to attempt to save them from death? Was
it not cruel that people who were perishing without
ebaying committed one single outrage, who went to the
and after receiving the sacrament, going back to
lineger in the agonies of famine, should be crushed in
such a harsh and reckless manner ? They
had shown wonderful fortitude and had sub-
mitted with admirable resignation to the trials
which Providence had inflicted upon them,
and was it just that they should be made the subject of
any attack or slander in that House? It was Irish
money as well as English money that had been given
to them, and not, as stated by the Honourable Gentle-
man, English money alone. If the House gave
them the management of their own affairs they would
not ask for any money; but the House had taken upon
itself the management of their affairs, and they would
notnow submit to meet the consequences of their own acts.
He had not intended to take any part in this debate,
but he had thought it necessary to say thus much in
answer to what the Hon. Gentleman had said.—(Hear,
hear.) The Government had acted niggardly tewards
Ireland, but at the same time he must do them the justice
to say that bad they proposed large grants, the House
would not have supported them.—(Hear, bear.) It was
too bad then to attack Ireland fur her misdeeds,
which the policy of the House and Government had
goaded her people on to, and he trusted they should
hear no more of these misdeeds, if misdeeds they could
be called.—(Hear, hear.) . _ _

Sir H. W. BARRON- was surprised that any English
Member should have evinced so bad a spirit towards
Ireland; but the Honourable Gentleman the Member
for Sheffield, in his opinion, had completely
contradicted himself. The Honourable Gentleman,
in his opening, said the landlords of Ireland
ought to drain their estates with their own money, and
In the next breath he said the land ought to be culti-
vated for the benefit of the people. Why, good God, this
could not be done without the aid of public grants. He
denied that the money voted by the House went into
the pockets of the landlords ; and as a proof of this he
might mention that during the last year the landlords
had subscribed 1,600,0001. for the relief of the Irish
people.—(Bear, hear.) These attacks, then, were
most unjust, and he regretted them the more because
they were likely to dry up the channels of charity in this
country, and leave the people of Ireland to die of abso-
lute starvation.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL remarked that the Hon.
Member for Sheffield having been absent from the
House for some time had of course a much keener appe-
tite for Irish subjects than the majority of other Hon.
Members.—(Laughter.) The House, however, had
heard so much during the present session of Ireland that
the Honourable Gentleman's speech was nut so much
relished as it might otherwise have been.—(Hear, hear.)
lie would not attempt to defend the Irish land-
lords, he would leave that to themselves, but with
regard to the labourers of Ireland, he thought the Hon.
Gentleman was unjust in his attacks on them.—(Hear.)
Re thought it was an unjust reflection upon the Irish
labourers to say that they were unwilling to work. He
believed that, in many instances, the labourers in Ire-
land were willing to work only for their food. It was
not, therefore, to be said that they wanted any lesson of
the kind given by the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
The Bill before the House was to establish a system of
drainage, with other improvements in land, by aid from
that House. The sums to be advanced were laid out,
in the first place, on labour, and, in the second place, on
the production of food by improvement of the land; and,
M the third place, there was every prospect that those
interest.—
(Hear, would be fully repaid, principal and
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Waterford (Sir
W. Barron) had truly said that many sums had been
advanced for various purposes to English and Scotch
proprietors, and these sums had been regularly repaid.
e did not see any valid reason why that house should
Withhold from Irish proprietors who required it, that
assistance which they had been in the habit of giving to
the proprietors of this country.—(Hear.)
Mr. HORSM AN said he did not believe that the
Sources of private charity in this country were yet dried
up. If capital and labour were driven out of Ireland,
they must in a great measure attribute it to past English
legislation. He sympathised with many of the Irish
landlords, who for years past had received no rent.—
(Hear.) He did not object to aid Ireland, but he ob-
jected to do it by a system that was pernicious in itself.
They had already tried this system, and still they were
told that nothing but immediate grants could save the
lives of thousands. Grants of 5,0001., and 10,000/, and
other sums were from time to time repeated; but had
that system improved Ireland? No; on the contrary
they were told, that upon the stoppage of these remit-
tances, the unfortunate people of Ireland must perish by
thousands. Some of the Commissioners' remonstrances
were very strong, and they desired, upon receiving no
,answer to their applications for money, to be relieved
from all responsibility. They must assume, that from
the conduct of the Government, in declining to send
Money, and the statements of the Commissioners, that
the mortality was very great. In the face of Europe,
that was a disgraceful state of things. He was surprised
how those who were responsible could sleep in their beds.
Sir G. GREY said that they had advanced the money
given them for the purposes of relieving Irish distress,
and when Government asked for 100,0001. more for that
purpose the Hon. Gentleman voted against it.—(llear,
hear.) As for these grants, they were secured upon
Irish property; but the observations made had no refer-
ence to the Bill before the House. Since the 50,0001.
bad been exhausted, 26,0001. more had been sent over
to Ireland, and in expectation of the relief asked for by
Government being granted, his Noble Friend (Lord J.
Russell) had stated that he would not feel himself bound
to refuse further aid.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH said that the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) had added to the sneer of the Hon. Member for
Sheffield when he spoke of an Irish debate as a thing to
be censured, and had deprecated the observations of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield. The tones of that
Honourable Member's voice appeared to have been
very unwelcome tones to the Noble Lord—" Thrice
in these Irish debates had the Honourable Member (Mr
Roebuck) spoken, and," the Noble Lord had added,
" Thrice the brindled cat had mewed." He (Mr.
Keogh) thought that these remarks should not be in-
dulged in against Irish debates by the Noble Lord, or
against Irish Members and the Irish nation by the Hon.
Member for Sheffield. When next he indulged in his
severity and satire on Irish Members, he hoped it would
be when those were present who were able to reply to
them. He was very far from thinking that the Hon. Gen-
tleman represented the feeliegs of his countrymen at
, laree
e He would rather look to the acts of the English
nation than to the'bitter words of the Hon. Member fur
Sheffield. As, however, the Hon. Member had wound
up without any motion, he thought it probable, after all,
the Sheffield blade was not so dangerous a weapon.—
(Laughter.) He hoped that the English people would
distinguisli between the patriotic statements of an Eng-
lish senator and the bilious acerbity of a spiteful self-tor-
nsentor.—(Hiar, and laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
thought it was unjust to charge his Noble Friend (Lord
J. Russell) with adding to the sneer of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield against Irish landlords, because he de-
precated the renewal of an Irish debate, or rather the
renewal of the personalities which result from the speech
of the Hon. Member for Sheffield. He trusted that the
time of the House would not be occupied with personal
attacks.
Colonel DUNNE was understood to say that Irish
Members should not be censured as asking for loans,
when so out of them had voted against this measure,'
and only 19 for it.

Mr. MOORE said that the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield amounted to an elaborate distillation of
all the bad feelings and worst passions which prevailed
amongst the worst mene e
of their fellow-subjects. It had
h
been said that all the evils of Ireland had been attri-
buted to landlordism: especially in Connaught. He
could only say, as
a Connaught man, that no conclusion
could be more unjust or more untrue than that to which
they had come
i
on this subject.
far from being idle or improvident. The peasantry were
Their indus-
try, integrity, thriftiness, and earnestness in seeking
after work, wherever it cou.id be found, were well-
known, and to apply such terms to them was one of
the grossest perversions of language. It would bo re-
famine, and yet in
membered how they had suffered from
the spring of 1848, while suffering from
destitution, and
living upon halt rations, they sowed a greater breadth of
. .e said to
I land than at former periods. They might be
have literally sowed these lands with their own lives.—
(llear, hear.) With respect to the landlords,
to be the rule to act on the old proverb, "flit them it seemed
them bard,
been
they have no friends." But whatever might have
..,
their faults they were only pari passu with the legisl,a-e
tion of this country. The evils of Connaught might 13.
traced as far back as the plantation of Connaught, for it
had a plantation as well as Ulster, a plantation very
much against it and in favour of Ulster, and while the
whole policy of this country had been directed to de-
grade and debase the people of Ireland, it was not to be
wondered at that the landlords had not taken much
pains to improve the country. Ile admitted that since
that policy changed they had not done so much as
they might have done, and he now called upon them to
come forward and do their duty as owners of the soil.
But it was not the landlords of Connaught alone who were
responsible. The landlords of Ulster d England
were equally so. They had no right and
)
brother's keeper." Those who ItadstooslaoUg"rAulinedl inthe
landlords
people in a selfish sectarian spirit, escape retribution. When the Irish
thuspect"
wtheere
tual
abused by Hon. Members, were they aware of
state in which many of them were placed, and that that'
had paid away more money to mortgages than they had
received from their estates. He had no desire to excuse
the landlords where they had really failed in their duty;
but, at the same time, he objected to the indiscriminate
censure that was cast upon them.
The SPEAKER having left the Chair, the House went
into Committee.
On the first and second clauses being read,
Mr. HORSMAN said he wished to know whether the
advances to be made by this Bill were to be for a limited
time, and what security there was against their misap-
plication? With respect to the charge of ignorance
Made against him by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir
G. Prey), all he could say was that the facts upon which

he founded his statements were in the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's own blue b.,oks, and he begged to tell the
Right Hon. Gentleman that he was not to be deterred
by the terror of his language. He knew his power in
debate, which was as great as his defects in administra-
tive ability.
Sir G. GREY declined to follow the Honourable Gen-
tleman into an irregular discussion. He would merely
say that he objeeed not to any facts, but to the Hon.
Member drawing from his own imagination charges
against the Government which were utterly unfounded.
He understood him to say that the Government were
calling upon Parliament to advance more money when
they had some not yet disposed of, and also that the
gran:s had been double in some cases what was asked.
He admitted that the Government had advanced more
money in some cases than was asked. The Govern-
ment felt themselves hound to do so under the circum-
stances, and would again, if the necessity for doing so
arose.

Mr. lIORSMAN briefly explained.
Mr. ROEBUCK whiled to make an explanation.
The way in which Honourable Gentlemen had alluded
to him was net of the gentlest kind, bet it it was merely
meant as a joke, he had no objection to it. It was no
answer to his objections. These were that for three
years they knew there had been great distress in Ire-
land. They knew the cause of it, and they were called
upon to apply a remedy. They asked the Government
to do so, and the Noble L )rd, acting upon his sensibili-
ties, had pursued a policy which he, in that name,
was justified in designating as unstatesmanlike. The
Noble Lord had not met his charge, which was that he
had had large sums of money entrusted to him for the
improvement of Ireland, and had left the people worse
than he had found them.—(Hear, hear.) Passing over
the personal attacks upon his frail body and bilious
temper by the Irish Gentlemen, he would repeat his
charge against them—that they had misapplied that
money. He asked them why they could not keep their
fingers out of the public grants.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to his charge against the Government, he would
say that when it had ten or twelve millions placed in its
hands as it were in one hour, that if it had been em-
ployed properly they might have set the people to work
on their own soil, and replaced the lost potatoes. By
the course they had taken, they had flung that immense
sum away. They had spent it mischievously. That was
his charge, and to that he adhered
Lord J. RUSSELL had objected to the former speech
of the Hon. Member, that it had no reference to this
Bill, but was rather an exposition of the Hon. Member's
views on the policy of the last four years. He had de-
clined to follow him into these subjects, doubting the
indulgence of the House; but his repetition of the attack
would force him to go into details: The Hon. Gentle-
man forgot the extent of the evil which the Government
had to deal with, and the circumstances by which it was
accompanied. As to its causes there was now no doubt.
The mode in which the landlords let their farms, the
payment by the farmers in plots of potato ground, in-
stead of wages, and the acceptance by the peasantry of
these grounds, in preference to wages, were at the root
of the evil. There was no doubt about these things.—
(Hear, hear.) They knew they had existed, and they
knew they had been stopped by the calamity sent by
Providence, which took away the potato, and was the
cause of all these advances. Whether the sum was five
millions, or any larger amount, which was required, no
one could tell at the time, because no one knew exactly
the amount of food which had been lost, and which re-
quired to be supplied. The landlords and farmers were
unable to find the means to employ and support the
people, because the same evil pressed upon them, and
cut off their ordinary means; and the Government were
bound to afford assistance either in one way or another.
In the first instance the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) repealed the corn laws, and he agreed with the
Hon. Member for Sheffield, that measure had been of
great benefit to the people; but it did not relieve the
people of Ireland. Indeed, it was in some senses the
contrary. It reduced the price of corn, and of course
was not favourable to those who had corn to sell.—
(Hear.) The Noble Lord proceeded to state the course
the Government had adopted on coming into office—the
organization of measures, and giving the baronies power
to present public works for the approval of the Govern-
ment, which were afterwards carried on by public ad-
vances. These works had been injudiciously suggested
in many instances, from the natural fears of the gentry,
arising from the famine.—(Hear.) The Government
found that this mode was suoject to abuses, they then
reduced largely at once, and gradually afterwards the
persons employed on public works, substituting food
depots for them. He did not say that other persons
might not have devised plans of a different character, but
he did say that no Government could tell, until the cir-
cumstances occurred, what amount of relief would be re-
quired, although he did not stand up to defend that sys-
tem of relief as one founded on provisions which could
not be controverted. He should say that he did not,
many as were the suggestions made by Hon. Gentlemen
on both sides of the House, hear any that were likely
to be accompanied with evils of a less magnitude than
those which were to be found connected with the Go-
vernment measures. If they adopted the plan of the
Honourable Member, namely, to employ the pro-
ductive labour of the country on the improve-
ment and cultivation of the soil, they would
interfere with private capital and private enter-
prise, and in order to act effectively, not ten million
but thirty million would be spent in that operation.
It was quite true that every system of relief diverted
persons from industrial pursuits. Every kind of poor-
law would be accompanied by that evil which tended to
reduce the stimulus inducing men to support themselves
and procure food. Such a want of industry and inde-
pendence would be tenfold increased if the State di-
rectly interfered in the employment of labour for the
cultivation of the soil. With respect to the measures
adopted in later years, lion. Gentlemen seemed to sup.
pose that the Government should have calculated the
extent of the failure of the potato crops in 1846,1847,
and 1848; but no Government could have told, with
an) thing approaching what would have been the result
of the harvest of those years. They, of course, had to
consider the calamity before them—but as to the exact
nature of the harvest, or the quantity of the produce of
potatoes, it was utterly impossible tor any Government
to form an opinion not having means or data sufficient
before them. Durin the last half year more than a mil-
lion of money had been raised in Ireland for the destitute
poor of thatcountry. When Hon. Gentlemen spoke of the
unwillingness of the occupiers of the soil in Ireland to
afford relief to the suffering Irish, he begged to state
that with all their diminution of resources and limited
means, they had contributed upwards of one million in
half a year, and he said that while he thought they were
justified in imposing the burden on Ireland, the mode
in which the collection had been made—he could not
say the willingness, but the obedience to the precepts of
the law xhich induced men to pay for the support of
their suffering fellow-countrymen, was highly creditable
to those liable to the payment of the poor-rate, and cer-
tainly should diminish somewhat of the acerbity and
bitterness of invective of those by whom it was at-
tempted to be contended that the Irish proprietors and
occupiers of land were not willing to make any effort of
their own for mitigating the sufferings of the distressed
people. The Incumbered Estates Bill of last session had
not been found to confer the benefits and advantages it
was intended, and the Government accordingly had in-
troduced during the present session a measure to invigo-
rate that Act, so as to facilitate the transfer of land to

those who were able to lay out capital on its proper cul-
tivation. They had been taunted with taking up the
suggestions of the light lion. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth respecting the subject. If it were any degra-
dation on the part of a Minister of the Crown to receive
suggestions and the development of a plan of the highest
importance from the light Honourable Baronet, or any
other Member, he was quite willing to submit to that
degradati ,n, or humiliation, and prepared to hear any
taunts that might be thrown
.on him for having in that
great peril and crisis of Ireland taken up what others
had devised. The Hon. Member for Sheffield and other
lion. Gentlemen seemed to think it was a sorry result
of all their measures, that the people of Ireland still suf-
fered severe distress. Now he could not imagine
those remediet—he had not heard those plans proposed
even by Gentlemen most intimately connected with Ire-
land powerful, so omnipotent he might say, which would
provide remedies for a people whose ordinary suffer-
ings and privations were materially increased
during four continuous years of famine. Notwith-
standing, as he believed, the dispensation of Provi-
dence was intended for the good of Ireland. The social
state of Ireland, as decribed by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners in their report of 1833, was one that could not
lea read without exciting feelings of pity and lamenta-
tion, and it was his firm conviction that in the end it
would be improved by the calamity. If any measure in-
troduced by the Government tended to alleviate the
sufferings of the people of Ireland, he certainly should
step,—bei conbthyteeymn tee
ao
could
ehps
actvaherartt
iheecdo, waytincol ut
tsioino
anob;neebt
tu)e, ter
aoirf:,
dbeburetyopof
rnsodocceti
eeh
dtay.t
ing bit by bit, that social state could be improved, he
certainly would feel proud at the attainment of such a
result. lie wished that those who had influence on the
public mind in Ireland would not report that those who
were in the councils of the Government—at present
the Legislature of the country—manifested indif-
ference to the evils which desolated the Irish
population. Dr. M•Hale, in au address published
in the Dublin Freeman's Journal, acknowledging
the receipt of various sums of money contributed from
private sources for the relief of distress in the western
district of Ireland, stated that the generous and timely
conduct of those donors was a humiliating lesson to the
Minister of the day, who looked on with calm indiffer-
ence at the deplorable., destitution. realms.
,of
Nthoews,uobjebcethsaolff
designated that state-
ment as a gross calumny. Majesty's Ministers,
her Nlaesty's
hart, .
othfaitlerportion of
The destitution of the
Irish people had b
the Cabinet a source of the
greatest anxiety.
Theyw
were well aware on the one
saes
sentence
that if they aff
hand, that it they refusedallo
relieff ptoeristhhiougp;ooarn, for
them it would amount to
the other hand, they were
'3:are,
inatcly, it would increase
relief lavishly' and indiscriminately,
the apathy which existed .ra
that
part of Ireland. The
while applying the
They should endeavour,
positions.hand,to meet the
Government endeavoured to steer between these two
calamities of Ireland, so that they.
gof increased food,
imperial resources with no niggardmi
ht
years a source of improved condition, of
welfare. They
rove in future
of habits of industry, and of
greaterthe
should endeavour, while bearing on
one
taunts and reproaches of those who charged
lavishing the funds of this country, and, on
them
withtha
the other
hand• the iuvectives of those who told them they were
indifferent to the suffering,* of the Irish population—
they should endeavour to lay the foundation for the com-
plete unic,n of that portion of the United Kingdom with
England. His belief was thatinter-
course with Ireland would tend much to that result. He
greater and improved
thought, whatever might have been the reproaches cast on
Irish landed proprietors in former years, the majority of
those proprietors were now wholly anxious to find
,
country, arby which they could improve the condition of the
u
and by which they could provide for the main-.

tenance and employment of those around them.—(Hear.)
He trusted that those who, during the last three years,
had done nothing for the improvement of their e,,tates,
would now be shamed into exertion, and would follow
those who aet them a glorious example. However it
might please Hon. Gentlemen in that House to lay the
blame on the Government and on the Imperial Parlia-
ment, his belief had been, was, and would be, that unless
harmony was created among all classes in Ireland—un-
less religious animosity was assuaged between different
sects—unless the enmity prevailing between the landlord
and the tenant gave way to good understanding—
unless all classes united in endeavouring to ele-
vate the country, it was useless for Government
to propose measures, or for the Parliament to
adopt them, as they would turn out miserable failures.
He believed that the commercial jealousy which so long
induced England to withhold from Ireland the means of
prosperity was at an end. He believed that that politi-
cal ascendancy which, during the last century, had made
the governing masses in England look to the support of
the minority only i❑ Ireland, had become extinguished—
beliering that those circumstances would in time, and by
the operation of natural causes, finally have their effect,
he trusted they should at length see, and that tneir chil-
dren would see more clearly than theinsdves, that the
case of Ireland wai not hopeless, and that the people of
Ireland, who were reproached for their idleness and im-
providence, had been burdened by adverse circum-
stances, and that they were as willing to labour, and were
us much endowed with those physical and moral
attributes which led to success, as any people in the
empire.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE gave the Government credit for good
intentions, but expressed his conviction that their mea-
sures were totally unsuited to Ireland. So long as the
present poor-law was maintained in Ireland, they could
not expect to improve the condition of the people.
Mr. V. snail hoped that the money advanced
under the present Bill would be expended on immediate
employment, and not spread over a number of years like
former loans.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the amount in:ended for the improvement of the
land would be expended within a given time, and that
designed for arterial drainage within a year.
Mr. HORSMAN expressed a hope that landed pro-
prietors who borrowed under the Act, would be com-
pelled to give employment at once, and not permitted to
hold over the amount of their loan until they thought
proper to make the improvements they considered neces-
sary.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
what the Hon. Member for Cockertuouth thought ought
to be done, had been already done.
Mr. OSBORNE bore testimony to the good effect
produced by former loans for land improvement and
arterial drainage.
Mr. BANKES asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
where was the money to come from which it was in-
tended to advance as a loan for land improvement in
Ireland. He also wished the Right lion, Gentleman to
inform the House when he proposed making his usual
financial statement.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
answer to the first question, that having in consequence
of the demands upon the reasury to make up the ex-
penses of the Kafir war, been obliged to borrow two
millions of money to replace the sums taken from it to
pay those expenses, he had been able, after making up
these, to appropriate the balance of the sums so borrowed
to the advances made on account of Ireland. These ad-
vances would therefore be made without being obliged to
touch the Consolidated Fund, and the Hon. Member for
Sheffield would not be troubled with the tax-gatherer
coming to his door on account of those advances. As to
the second question, he had stated sometime ago, in an-
swer to the don. Membr for Montrose, that he was
anxious to make his financial statement at as early a
period as possible, but that previous to doing so, he
should be in possession of data, to enable him to make it
as accurate as possible. He confessed that had he done
so at that time, ho would have been able to make a more
favourable statement than he would now, as the blockade
of the northern ports had considerably injured the trade
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Ile would therefore have
to request some further delay, but would assure the
House that he would make his statement as early as cir-
cumstances would permit of him doing so.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he had heard a good deal of late
about " cooking" accounts in connexion with a certain
railway, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer iu these advances to Ireland was adopting some-
what of the same system. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had said the tax.gatherer would not come to him for
money to pay, those advances, but he had told the House
that he had borrowed money for the purpose of paying
them, and as he believed, that like every honest man, he
intended to pay his debt, though the tax-gatherer might
not come to him this year for the purpose referred to, he
would thenext, as the money must be raised by means of
taxes.

Mr. FRENCH said, Hon. Members not connected with
Ireland were too apt to think that everything done for
that country was an additional tax upon England, but
the fact was, that Ireland bore a higher proportion of
taxes than did England.
In reply to Mr. GROGAN,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that there was no intention on the part of the Govern-
ment of altering the system of distribution of the funds
for the purposes of drainage in Ireland.
Mr. ARK VVRIGUT pressed the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to give the House some idea as to when his finan-
cial statement would be made. He had stated in reply
to the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that he would do
so as early as possible; but would it be six weeks or a
month hence?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Cer-
tainIy before six Iw-eke; I hope within a mouth.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said as the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government had alluded to a statement
of the Archbishop of Tuam, he thought that it ought to
be stated: that the censure the Noble Lord had alluded
to, was as much levelled against those connected with
the Roman Catholic Church as it was against others.
The Archbishop of Thant lived in a district where the
distress was most severe, and had it not been for his ex-
ertions, all the assistance given by the Government would
have fallen far short of what was required. He thought
it therefore but just to say that no one had exerted them-
selves more than Dr. M•Hale had done in alleviating
that distress, and that hundreds had been saved from
starvation by the exertions he had made.
The Bill then passed through Committee, was re-
ported without amendment, and the House resumed.