The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

Sir G. CLERK moved for leave to bring in a Bill to post-
pone the operation of an Act passed last Session, for regulating
the uniformity of Weights and Measures. The Act was to
commence from the Ist of January, but the object of his Bill
was to delay the operation till the Ist of May next. The new
arrangement was necessary, in consequence of some obstacles
that interposed in constructing the models.--:Leave granted.
ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELA ND.

The Order of the Day for the resumptiwi of the Adjourned
Debate having been read,
Mr. PELHAM rose, and occupied the House for nearly a
quarter of an hour ; but owing to the situation of the Hon.
Gentleman, under one of the side Galleries, and the low tone
of voice in which he spoke, rendered every word be uttered in-
audible in the Gallery.
Mr. GRATTAN then rose.—He observed that the Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), in his speech of last
night, had taken occasion to allude to the prosecutions of the
Catholic Association, in a manner which he thought amount-
ed to an imputation on that body. Although he did not
mean to say that he approved of their conduct altogether, yet
he would say a word or two in their favour in justice to an
absent body. It appeared to him that the Hight Hon. Gentle-
man had said every thing he could against them unfairly, at
least he would say partially. He had compared them to the
United Irishmen, - and accused the Priests of tittering the in-
- fiammatory publications. But he had omitted to state that the
Dublin press had been conducted for many years by the Protes-
tant Clergy, and that of whic:i he complained proceeded from the
violence of that party. The Association was formed 2or 3 years
ago, for the purpose of self-defence against that party by which
the country was governed. It was composed of Protestants
as well as Catholics. He was not one because their proceed-
ings might lead to violence, and because it was impossible to.
justify all their ridiculous conduct. The Association were not
the originators of the evils in Ireland. Let them plead their
own cause, and he heard by Counsel at the liar of the House.
This Bill was a declaration of war against the Catholic Asso-
ciation—it was an Orange Bill. It was not from the North of
Ireland, it was from Derry—no Catholic could mistake it. He
(Mr. Grattan) suppoited the Protestants of that country, and
should do so to the last day of his life, and he opposed the
Bill, because it was inimical to the Protestants. He had heard
of plots in that country of late, but the only one he knew of
was the arming of Protestant farmers against the Catholics—
the thing ended in smoke, all that occurred being that a Catho-
lic was fired at. There was an attempt to prosecute t! mat-
ter at law, but it was hushed up. They all knew what hush-
money was in that country. The impoverished peasant dare
not lodge an information, or budge a toot, for fear of his land-
lord ; and it was here that the Catholic Association interfered
with the laws. He did not mean to say that the administra•
tion of justice in Ireland was not pure.—(Hear, hear)—but
he knew of a case, in which, through the exertions of the
Association, five or six policemen were convicted of a mur-
der. It was idle .to say that the Irish peasant had justice
He conjured the Hon. Gentleman to consider the course which
similar Acts had taken. The Convention Act did not stop the
rebellion. He was old enough to recollect the horrors of that
time, and what was worst of all, the Union. With regard to
the Act which the Right Hon. Gentleman had of late years
introduced, it had been evaded, and he believed that there
were ten thousand more Orangemen last year than the year
before. He knew what the French Police was, and he knew
that all such systems ended in espionage. This was what
such a system tended to, although it might not be so now.
It was a gagging system, and one which tended to hostilize
every man in this country. He protested against such a sys-
•tern. It could not but hurt Ireland, and prevent speculation
and capital entering that country. Rather than live there under
such a Bill, which might be evaded every day, he would rather
live in England or any where. Now what had the Irish Par-
liament done for Ireland ? It had got her a free trade, and
that was more than an English Parliament would do. Since
the Union the people had been kept down by the bayonet and
force. When it was said that an Orangeman could not be dis-
tinguished from a Protestant, lie denied the fact. In Ireland
those two characters were well known from each other. They
had heard a good deal about the hate of a Catholic for an
Orangeman. He maintained it was a natural expression—the
Orangemen hated the Catholics.—( Hear, hear !)—lt was very
well to talk of being smote upon one cheek and taming the
other: but who Would do it. Let them look at the epithets
which the Orangemen applied to the Catholics—arch-fiends,
demagogues, and so on. The fact was, that in Ireland there
was one party whom the Government prosecuted, and another
whom they supported.—(Hear !)—He had thought it his duty
to his country to state what he bad stated; and would not tres-
pass on the House further.
Captain MA BERLEY said, that he rose with regret, and
he might say with indignation, to advert to the proceedings
of his Majesty's Ministers. He charged them lei-it 'having
done what was unusual as regarded that House, and what
was most cruel as regarded Ireland. It was upon notoriety
that they pretended to found their measures, although it was
plain that this Government of the Country, and those who
ought to be best acquainted with the proceedings of the Catho-
lic Association, were really ignorant of what they were doing.
But what sort of notoriety was that, when the Right. lion. Se-
cretary for Ireland, and the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign
Affairs. actually differed as to the grounds upon which they
assented to the measure it was now proposed to take ? One
said that the Catholic Association was a virtual representation
of the people, and that, therefore, it should be put down ; it
was a- sort of Parliament. The Right Honourable Secretary
for Foreign Affairs, declared that this Body did not represent
the feelings of the people, and upon that ground he justified the
introduction of a measure to get rid of-it. How different was
the course when the state of the country in 1799 would have
justified different proceedings ! Even during the terrible times
of the French Revolution, when there were Clubs and Corre-
sponding Societies, and the yet burning embers of rebellion in
Ireland, so unwarrantable a course as that now proposed had
not been adopted. There were Reports of Secret Committees.
almost without number, upon the table of the House. But did
the Government offer to introduce !tills for.the Suppression of
the Corresponding -Societies without inquiry ? Not even in
those times did they venture to pass Acts of Parliament without
referring documents to the house, or appointing a ComMittee
to investigate. The first charge he had to prefer against the
Right Honourable Gentleman who originated the dismission
was, the use of the expression, " virtual representation."
Ile wished to know what he meant by this phrase, " virtual re-
presentation ?" It was an expression coined during the period
of the debates on the American Revolution. The -Americans
were. told at that time that they were virtually represented,
but they (lid not happen to think that enough for them. What
followed ? Why the Americans erected a Parliament 'of their
own—this he called virtual representation with 'a vengeance.
But the Right Hon. Gentleman, not satisfied with attributing
to the Catholic Association the sin of virtually representing
the Irish people, went on to call them a Parliament. The
Right Hon. Gentlemen went very smoothly on by impercep-
tible gradations to the ohject he had in view. He wished to
establish a resemblance betwixt the powers ,-" the Catholic
Association and those of Parliament. They Lad a President
he told them, and that President, although now tempo-
rary, he had heard it was their intention to .Make perma-
nent. As to their Hiving Parliament, because they had Com-
mittees and seal like, lie denied the inference. In that
respect the Catholic Association had modelled itself upon
the usages which prevailed in all countries. All that their
regulations -or President did was, to maintain a certain
order in their proceedings, preventing -More than one man
speaking at a tir4, and so on. This was *bat was obserYed
at the commonest parish meeting in the kingdom. Although
he might, perhaps, concur with the Right Hon. Gentleman to
pass a general law restricting all Societies, yet that would not
be a reason why he should assent to the present measure, which
-The Hight Hon.
went to put down the Catholic Association-