The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-09 00:00:00

Lord J. RUSSELL said, those who had argued the
question had proceeds d on the assumption that there was
no call for money on the Consolidated Fund. Although
the western unions were liable for the whole 4Cs. in t""
pound incurred, yet, as the rate was not collected, what
good was such a liability ? Did it not cause a panic, and
prevent improvement? The farmer when told that the
rate would only amount to 75., would calculate se"
cordingly.

Lori J.
RUSSELL next said he could not conceßa
that the farmer would assume that the rates would run
up to 55., and even aid in making them run up, in order
to get 2s. out of others. This would be an absurdly.
Supposing, for example, the rates were naturally only
.Is*
or 2s. He would have the ordinary interest in keepinerge
were
down the rates. The Hon. Gentleman had asked
they were to come for money after the maximum was
obtained? Few of the divisions would reach the slily'
There would not be 280 electoral divisions in which ills
rate would be exceeded. Things could not be left in
their present condition. Rents would fall; the poor
could not be relieved at all. If bad, the maximum rata
was better than doing nothing. Ile should object to ad-
ranee out of the Consolidated Fund if the 7s. was exceeded.
Ireland's condition would then be only the same as Scot-
land's. Till of late, 1837, the poor law was only volun-
tary-ss. in every electoral division, 2s. on the union.
would be a great burden to impose so soon. The evi"
deuce before the Committee was in favour of the plan:
Mr. De Vere had evidently thought much on the general
question, and gave good evidence, but still his opinion
was that Mr. De Vere was a little influenced by his wish
to find fault with everything connected with the poor-
law. He (Lord John) believed this Bill would be A use •
ful auxiliary to the Bill for the sale of incumbered
estates. If land was made valueless, what use in a Bill
to facilitate sales.
Mr. HERBERT would not speak long.—(cries of
"Adjourn.") He thought the principle of a maximum
rate would compensate for the vice of the Bill. Nothing
remedial in the Bill. There would be future calls on
the Imperial Exchequer. 4s. Id. was the largest stun
ever collected in the distressed unions. Thus capitalists
would never be sale. Some honest districts had PIT
more than the maximum. Had they stuck to the max'.
mum, the poor would have died. He only wished to
notice Mr. Vernon Smith's remark. Ho thought he had
adopted the spirit of English Members on this law'
When there was a danger of an inroad on the consoli-
dated fund he exclaimed against any change leading
thereto. Only one English Member had agreed wit
Irish Members that the law of Ireland should, as Irish
gentleman wished, be assimilated to the English law'
Mr. ADAIR said more than 4s. id. had been collected
in one union. In Clare 6s. 6i.1. had been collected. In
Miltown division 83. had been collected. He supPorrd
the maximum rate as an exceptional measure to give
confidence to Ireland.

Mr. HERBERT had quoted from a nubile paper.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT apprehended that the
Noble Lord would desire to get this Bill through as
soon as p,s.ible. Why not fix Monday?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought Bills should
.130,
passed at once when the House had arrived at the third
rea ling. He had agreed with other Members, too, °II
the subject. Besides, there were points in the poor-10
still requiring amendment. He would rather adhere to
the old arrangement.
The Committee then reported, and the Speaker re'
sumed to sit again on Monday.
Charitable Trusts on Monday.
The House adjourned at One o'clock.

RAJ LWA Y tlAttic. ARKETS.
LIVERPOOL, JUNE 8.
STOCK EXCHANGE. —TIIO share market was gloomy and depressed
to-day, and few transactions going forward. Towards the close °.!
business prices had a downward teaaency. The sake ara—Lant
cashire and Yorkshire, Fifths, 4% dis.—Bolton, Chester, and Wes..
Yorkshire (No. 1), 7—London and North-Western, 127 c.-1)14.:
New Quarters, 48s. 9d. p.-.-Ditte, Fifths, s,p.—Midland, 11 •70
d
dis.—South-Eastern and Dover (No. 4), 6—York, Newcastle,
Berwick (G. N. B. Purchase), 765. 3d. dis.

MANCFIESTER, JUNE 8.
STOCK EXCHANGE.— The transactions to-day were as follows.;_,
Clithereo (No. 1), 70—Sheffield, Eighths, 45(,—Grimsby Docks, 9N,
North Staff° dshire, Preference (Canal shares), 21—Dover (140;
6% r.—Leeds, Fifths, 4 11-16 dis.—Caledonian, Preference, 11 5-16 r. BIRMINGHAM, JUNE 8.
.•
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-day have
peen as follow.'
—London and -North-Western, 1.26--Midland, 6 per cents 12"
Shrewsbury and Birmingham (B), V. 3s 9d. dis, —Shropshire I.TILIQa.
565. 3d. dis.

YORK, JUNE 7.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-day have been A-
fOl°
„d
lows :—Great Northern, 9%—.Northl3ritish, Thirds, 3%—york a"
North Midland, 5%.

A FACT FOR IVELSLIMEN.—At the Board of
Guardians, on Saturday, Mr. John, the relieving officer'
stated in answer to a question from Mr. Booker, that of
all the cases of cholera that came under his notice, Oild
were relived or buried at the public expense, there was
not one Welsh. They were nearly all Irish.—The Prig*
cipality.
[ADVERTISEMENT.]-.A dreadful Abscess under the
Chin Cured by Holloway's Ointment and Pills.—Robert
Davidson, shoemaker, of Anstruiher, had suffered for
ni,°re
than five years with a very dreadful abscess under his nh'n ,
;
during this time he had been under the care of two surgeons It
Anstruther and one in Edinburgh, without the least pros Pee
of a cure. In this miserable condition he began to use 0
way's Ointment and Pills, which, in the short space of
months, soundly healed the wound ; and he is now enjoying,`.
he
best of health. The se fine medicines are admirable remel
for king's evil, wounds of all kinds, burns, scalds, piles, fistula,
and bearings down. Sold by all Druggists, and at Professor
Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London.

BIRTHS.
On the Ist inst., at the Priory, near Taunton, the lady 0f
J. Winter, Esq., of a daughter.
On the 4th inst., at Offenharniyorcestershire, the w f(1 of
the Rev. R. Lawson, of a daughter.
On the 4th inst., at Kensington-park•road, the wife of G•
G. Kirby, Esq., of a daughter.
On the sth inst.. at Arbour-terrace, Commercial-road, the
wife of the Rev. Richard Parnell, of a daughter.
On the sth inst , at the Willows, Upton, Essex, Igo. D•
H. Fry, of a son.
On the 6th inst., at Brook-green, Hammersmith, the wife
of the Rev. E. Hautingfird, of a son.
On the 6th in t., 'strs. Frederic Webb, Clapham-road-Plac*
of a son.

M
On the 6th inst., at hristA
churcßßlEh,D.
Newgate-street, Thongas
third son of John Barker, Esq., of Broadwater, Susses. to
Frances, eldest surviving laughter of the late Samuel likr
ward, Esq., of Clapton, Middiesev.
On the 7th inst., at Sc. George's, Bloomsbury, the Res':
John Philip Gell, M.A., late Warden of Christ's Collet'
Tasma,ia, to k- lea or Isabella, only child of Capfaitt it
John Franklin, R.N.

Dm
On the 4th inst., at Frognal,i)
Hampstead, aged 82, Eliza-
beth, relict of the late J. Harris, Esq.
On the 4th inst., at Leigh-house, Lower-heath, TraWY-
stead, Frances Elizabeth, youngest daughter of the late •
Holloway, Esq., of East Leigh, Havent, Hants, aged 32. On the sth at the Lodge, Weymouth, aged 84, Jana
Young, relict of the late W. Young, Esq.
At Edinburgh, on the sth inst., Amelia Marian, relict of
the late George Robins, Esq., of Kensington-gardens-to-IV.
At Hanford, on the 6th inst., Helen, daughter of 11.
&prier, Esq., M.P.

11,0mion: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG ofht
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sea Office, Na "el
&rand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the COLON -
atiddleses, Saturday, Juno 9,1949.

this assumption. We have had experience of this in
England. Acts in England (36'h George 111., cap. 10)
formed a preceekne He quu'ed the preamble.—(Cries
of " Gallery, gallery.") A maximum was established
in this English Act. But then those gentlemen who
hope there is any p.,rmanence in such an arrangement
would be disappointed. Another Act is passed to double
the arrangement. Then comes the 52d George 111.,
which abolishes the elan altogether. Agricultural prices
in Ireland would fall, and the analogy with England
was thus stronger. The Noble Lord said the maximum
was an inducement to invest. He asked how a capi-
talist, looking to English legislation on Irish Boor-law
affairs, could think it safe to invest 1001. in Irish ro-
ta rty, unless their legislation contained the germs of a
better system? Do you think that a capitalist who he
seen such v.eissitudes, such fresh burdens on landed
property, would trust that no further charge would h 0
Drops ed? What would prevent our doubling the max:-
mum? When the maximum is attained, where would
more money come from? You cannot diminish pau-
pertra; with Irish resources undeveloped, you cannot
say to the tide of Irish pauperism, Thus far shall you
eo and no further." The Bill had no guarantee that the
maximum would not be exceeded. It would not tell well
.or English representat:ves to let it he understood that
the remainder should come from English resources-
Every statement showed that poverty wail
The expenditure exceeded by far 55. in the pound in the
distressed districts. How were they to proceed ? There
ought to be more openness and plain statement in the
Rill. It would be recollected that the law of settlement
depended on the statement of the pauper and the alloca-
tion of the guardians. The result of the maximum rate
would be to tempt great injustice to electoral divisions.
One electoral division would be overburdened and others
comparatively escape. The question is, would you or
not make the law a stimulus to employment? If farmers
could thus shuffle off their burdens on others, how would
the end—employment—be attained? The Noble Lord
had refused to state whence the overplus of pauperism
was to be relieved. There would be no security to the
owners of property. The plan would mulct the indus-
trious for the sake of the indolent and wrongful. Be
could not conceive how Parliament—believing in tb,e
duty of the rich towards the poor--could pass the Bill.
Yet, it would pass. The House had registered the will
of the Noble Lord throughout. Thus he reluctantly
warned the Noble Lord that the Bill contained a den'
gerous and fatal principle.
Mr. VERNON SMITH had asked on the second
reading what would be the fund when the maximum
was attained. The Noble Lord said first come on the
parish—then on the union—but afterwards there was a
blank. The country was to be as it was before the
poor law. In other words, Irish poverty would have to
come on English property. Against that the Noble
Lord sets this, that capital would be encouraged to flow
into Ireland. But what hopes of th.d.? What said sir.
Aubrey de Vere—a very clear witness? The farmer
would take no pains to keep down the maximum. TIIe
rate would jump up to that point at once. Estates would
be taken accordingly, and pauperism would be where it,
was. He (Mr. V. Smith) protested against making bad
laws to tempt capital into Ireland. In England all pro-
perty is pledged to support the poor. Why not is
Ire-
land? Another argument of Mr. De 'Vera was, theat.
the variety of valuations in Ireland would make
still more uncertain what liabilities a farmer would incur.
The measure would not introduce capital. It was
merely an opinion—a theory--of the Noble Lord's, and
would fail.
Colonel DUNNE said, the expenditure in several
electoral divisions had reached 205. in the pound. Be
said the maximum rate was a good principle. No mancould take land till liabilities were ascertained. The
English principle was bad, and ought not to be extended.
In only two cases had the ss. been exceeded. The seve-
rity of other taxes in Ireland on the farmer was another
reason. No county cess would be paid, unless there Was
a maximum.