The Sun.
London, England, 1836-04-27 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.

Lord MELBOURNE laid on the table some supplemental
corrrspondenee relative to the convention entered into between
Lord Eliot and the contendinr, parties in Spain.
IRISH CORPORATION BILL. _ _

The Noxi.;ii;c;ll;rthen moved that the Order of the
Day be read for the House to resolve,itself into a Committee
on this Bill.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI rose and said that he
would not detain the House more than a few minutes, especi-
ally after the most able speech of the Noble and Learned
Lord, which was still unanswered, and which must be
still fresh in the memory of their Lordships.—(Hear.)
He would not go into any topics of recrimination, either as re-
garded individuals or public bodies.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord went on to state, that having observed the
manner in which the Corporation Commissioners executed the
duty entrusted to them, he was bound to !say that they acted
uprightly in their proceedings. Before entering on the details,
of the Bill itself, he felt bound to call their Lordships
attention to the purposes for which Corporations were es-
tablished in Ireland, with a view to show that there was an
essential difference between those who created them in Great
Britain and that country. The very first corporation granted
was, as a Noble Earl had stated on a former occasion, to the
King's English subjects residing in Ireland, to the King's
citizens of Bristol residing in Dublin. That, he believed,
was a charter of Henry I. It was the first duty of these
Corporations to keep guard and garrison, and to keep train-
bands against the Irish enemy. He would confess that he
had been surprised to hear it stated in another place that these
Corporations were created for Protestant purposes. Recol-
lecting the state of the country, and that the property was at
that time in the bands of the Catholics, the great settlement
of the province of Ulster, he thought that it was not unfair
to suppose that the Irish Corporations were created for the
purpose of increasing the Protestant ascendancy in Parliament.
It was because Catholics were admissible to Parliament that it

was necessary to maintain the British power, and to have an
ascendancy of British interests in the Irish House of Commons.
He should now approach the proposition of the Noble Vis-
count, and take the liberty of stating his grounds of dissent.
He believed that there was no man in Parliament who could
rise iu his place and say that he was an advocate of the ex-
clusivi system now prevailing in the Irish Corporations.-
-(I-Tear.) He was willing to go with the Noble Viscount to
a certain extent in the path of reform ; but let it not be said that
in respect of the petitions of the people for a reform of abuses
that there had been found in that House parties either deaf
or unwilling to give ear to them. He was as anxious as any
man to join with the Noble Viscount in doing away with this
exclusive system and the vices which naturally grew out of
such a system. He was desirous that the spirit generated and
fomented by such a system should no longer exist in that
country ; bnt he thought that some security ought to be given
that under the proposed system no new ascendancy should be
established—( Hear)—that a system should not be instituted
as grievous as that which had been destroyedthat in the re-
construction a fabric should not be built up, not only as full of
abuses, and attended by all the evils which bad flown from the
former one, hut not unaccompanied even with greater danger.
He believed that where it was possible to admit the inhabitants
of towns to a participation in their government it was wise to
do so. But had the Noble Viscount told the House that for
the accomplishment of his object. it would be advisable to act
upon such a principle ?—(Hear, hear.) No, the Noble Vis-
count had not ; for he had said that be would not confide
to these new bodies even the administration of justice. It
bad been stated that under municipal institutions cities
usually increased in prosperity. In answer to this he
would beg their Lordships to look at Manchester, and Bir-
mingham, and the metropolitan boroughs. There were two
propositions which it was incumbent on the Noble Viscount
to make out to their Lordship's satisfaction. First, to show
that, if these municipal bodies were to be created, the pro-
visions of the present Bill were the best suited for the creation
of Corporations ; and, secondly, that they were the best suited
to carry the system into execution. The Noble Viscount had
said, that having passed the English Corporation Bill, the
House. ought to apply a similar enactment to Ireland. He
(Lord Fitzgerald) would ask why had the Noble Viscount de-
parted from the English Bill in respect to the powers to be
given to these Corporations ? Why had he departed from it
in the two great principles of the administration of justice and
police ? There lately had been placed on the table of the
House the Report of a Board of Commissioners appointed by
the Noble Viscount. He alluded to the Report of the Irish
Poor Law Commissioners. In their third Report, second sec-
tion, they observed that it was said that Poor Laws for Ire-
land ought to be similar to the Poor Laws of England ; but
they gave it as their opinion that the Poor Laws for Ireland
ought essentially to vary from the English Poor Laws, for the
circumstances of the two countries differed widely, and the

Legislature, they submitted, ought to have reference to cir-
cumstances as well as to principles.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
(Lord Fitzgerald) would also submit that the Legislature
ought to have regard to circumstances as well as to principles.
He would be asked, no doubt, how it was intended to reform
these admitted abuses.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the first
place, he would go with the Noble Viscount to the extent of
abolishing the ancient charters of the Irish Corporations, and
of withdrawing from all self-elected or irresponsible bodies
the powers which had hitherto been vested in them. He
would now ask, in the face of Parliament, and of the public,
was this a niggard reform?—(Hear):--a reform unworthy of
the application of the principle which was asked for ? Would
their Lordships again be told that they were now an obstacle
to effectual, salutary, and secure reform ?—( Hear.) In le-
gislating upon this subject he would beg the House to take
into consideration the peculiar social relations of Ireland. Po-
litical excitement prevailed there, not alonein public bodies
or at occasional elections, but it forced its way into private life
interfering with all the personal relations of man. He there-
fore would beg their Lordships to consider well before they
adopted a measure which would give to the one party an abso-
lute and uncontrollable ascendancy. He would admit that in a
country where the power of holding political meetings, and
discussing political subjects, was unfettered, and where there
Was a perfectly free press, it might not be possible to control
political agitation and excitement; but he would ask Noble
Lords opposite whether, because opportunities and facilities
were afforded by the state of the country for that excite-
ment, they meant to add to those facilities ?---plear,
bear, hear.) If theirLordshipswhich
looked. at the details res-
pecting the boroughs for
pro-
vided—ifs they rooked at It% Corporations were to be pro-
tsra of their population,
and calculated, as he had attempted eo to do, upon data, which
were at best substantially correct,l whatw would
be the number
of voters in those boroughs ? Tey uwdo Iseie what kind of
constituencies the new Corporations
thought he need not argue that point further.o possess. He
The. people of
Ireland, it was said, had a right to complain f
olegns
Majesty's
were
withheld from them which were enjoyed by his
sub-
jects in Great Britain. As a general proposition un-
doubtedly admitted it, if by withholding their rights itc
was
meant that any of the rights or privileges of the subjects of
the King should be defeated by the Parliamentary law of
Ireland; but he would ask what rights were withheld under
the proposition shadowed forth the other night by his Noble

Friend ( Lord Lyndhurst), and which he had now risen to ex-
plain more in detail? A Noble Marquis opposite (Lansdowne)
had the other night made a quotation to which he would refer,
a quotation which implied that they were not disposed to give
equal rights in the same sense as the Noble Lord had de-
scribed them. The same quotation bad been employed by
Mr. 'Pitt, with the addition of one line, which the Noble
Marquis had not quoted :
Non ego, nee Tuccris Italos parer° jubebo ;
Nec regna peto ; paribus se legibus ambm,
Invictm gentes wterna in fcedera mittant."
Not that he meant—said Mr. Pitt—to propose the legislative
union between the two countries upon terms of actual equality.
He (Lord Fitzgerald) would ask the Noble Marquis what he
meant by his quotation the other night—

Paribus se legibus ambce
Invictm gentes nterna in fcedera mittant ?"
Would the Noble Marquis explain what he meant by pares
leges? If he meant that every Irish subject should be equal
in the eye of the law, why he ( Lord Fitzgerald) would say, so
they are. The law made no distinction between Catholic and
_ _

Protestant. Was not, then, he would ask, their proposition a
better fulfilment of the spirit in which the quotation was made
by Mr. Pitt than the measure proposed by his Majesty's Go-
vernment ? Upon what principle, he should like to know, was
the Constabulary Bill founded? Was the principle of pares
leges applied there ? If any of their Lordships had proposed
a measure similar to that for the regulation of the police in
England, would not the Noble advocate of pares leyes have
declared, God forbid that any such system should be applied
to the state of society in England ? Such was the principle
of uniformity of laws which on some occasions the Noble
Marquis would find it convenient to abandon and discard.
He apprehended that the protection of the law was one of the
first claims of the subject. Then what, he would beg to ask,
was the state of the Irish Tithe holder and the Minister of the

Established Church in Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Did they legis
late, then, on the principle of parity of laws ?—( Loud cheers.
He was ready to admit that the circumstances of that country
justified, and in some degree necessitated, a different course
of proceeding ; bat it must be remembered, also, that there
were circumstances which had been aggravated by the course
of legislation pursued in respect to that subject.—(Hear,
hear.) They talked about parity of laws, and yet they hesi-
tated about permitting the officers of police to execute the
process of the superior Courts, in order to enforce the legal
claims of the Protestant clergymen.—( Cheers.) And then
they said they founded their justification on the state of Ire-
land, in the fact that the majority of the people were not com-
municants, but dissented from that Church which they were
called upon to support. He did not deny that, to ascertain
extent, that was a valid and substantial argument—( Hear,
hear)—but there were limits to be drawn, and if the argu-
ment was valid as to the Church of Ireland—if they had a
right to say to the Protestant clergy—" You are in a minority,
and we will, therefore, depart from our principle of pares
leges, when we deal with you"—the Protestants must also be
allowed to turn round, and say, " If we are in a minority, let
us have the protection to which we are entitled, and let us
not be overwhelmed by a system more oppressive—more ex-
clusive then the one which you would abolish." Oh, no !
The Noble Lord would return to his original proposition, and
say it was necessary to legislate upon pares leges, and then—
" Paribus se legibus ambm
Invictm genies geterna in feedera mittant."
—(Cheers.) He would now take the liberty of stating to
their Lordships the plan which it was proposed to substitute for
the measure of his Majesty's Government. It was intended
by those who concurred in the necessity of an ample reform
of the existing Corporations to agree with the proposition of
the Noble Lord, and to abolish the existing Corporations
from the Ist of January, 1237. They concurred with- the Noble
Lord in reserving to the freemen the rights of property and
the elective franchise. They agreed with the Noble Lord
in the respect to the administration of justice, and the ap-
pointment of officers connected with the administration of jus-
tice ; that it was not expedient to confide those duties, in the
present peculiar situation of Ireland, to such bodies as the
Town Council; and they, therefore, readily concurred in the
amendment which had been adopted by the Noble Lord and
his colleagues, and had been introduced into the measure, un-
der their sanction, by one of the Law Officers of the Crown,
an amendment which was not forced from them by any hostile
influence, not the result of any Parliamentary victory, but
yielded by them when the original proposition was found
to be no longer tenable, and, the effect of which was to
vest the appointment of those officers in the Crown.—
( Hear.) The sheriffs and coroners in the counties of
cities and counties of towns by their proposition were to be
appointed by the Crown. It was proposed also that Com-
missioners should be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, in
whom the whole corporate property, and all charitable trusts,
should be vested. By the Bill of the Noble Lord it was pro-
vided that those persons, members of the old Corporations, in
whom charitable trusts were vested should still continue to
hold those trusts ; and he (Lord Fitzgerald) was not sure
that that was not a better proposition than the one be sub-
mitted to their Lordships; and if their Lordships should be
found to he. of the same opinion, they would not then propose
that there should be the same Board of Commissioners for
the two purposes, of the application of the corporate pro-
perty and the investment of charitable trusts. It had been
suggested that there was a Board in existence in Ireland
called the Church Donations Board, which was highly suit-
able fur the purpose ; and he admitted that, so far as his
own opinion was concerned, that Board appeared fully qua-
lified. But then it roust be remembered thet it was composed
of the Prelates of the Established Church—a circumstance
which would raise suspicion in the minds of some; be-
sides, it was a duty which he did net think those Prelates
ought to be called upon to perform. Further, it was pro-
posed that pcevee should he given to the Corporation Com-
missioners to discharge all the corporate.dutles, and to ap-
point local Commissioners in those places where funds might
exist, in order to apply those funds to the advantage of the
towns in which such funds arose. Powers would be given
to the Lord Lieutenant respecting the means of buying up
the debts, the sale of lands, the appointment of necessary
officers, and in reference to making compensation. The next
provision was one of the greatest importance to the people of
Ireland, respecting the establishment of the police force. Now
it had been deemed advisable that, as far as possible, an uni-
form system should prevail; -and that accordingly where theta
were no local Acts in beneficial operation the general Consta-
bulary Act should be applied. By their proposition the Crown
should have the appointment of the Recorder, who was to be
the sore Judge of the borough courts. No suspicion ceultt
attach to those who opposed the Noble Viscount's Bill, benaUse
they proposed to vest in the Crown, and the Lard Lieutenant,
as the representative of, the Crown, the full powers of local
municipal government, which they preferred placing in the
hands of a Minister acting on his responsibility, to placing it
in the hands of an irresponsible, illusory, and teontltory body,
such as would grow out of the system proposed by his Ma-
jesty's Government. The Noble Viscount had on a former es,.
casino stated the differences between the present meeetin Ana
the Bill of Municipal Reform passed last session.; had, first, in
respect to the qualification, he had alleged that a 10/, franchise
would render the constituency too limited for the objects of the.
Bill; but he would ask the Noble Lord how he knew that ?
There was only the Report of the Cominissietrats, and that
could not be relied on, because they had tray male a return
of the houses registered—none of those who might vote,
So far as that point was cerieerned they were legjelatiiig
in the dark; what would be the extent of skit fran-
chise they had no means of knowing ' • and 10/. franchise
had been found sufficiently limited fot Parliamentary elec-
tions. But what was the a qualification ? In the English_
Bill it had been limited by requiring an occupation of Three
years; in Ireland, where, doubtless, it was fttl'iy. Its necessary
to limit the qualification to a certain extent, six months' occu-
pation was only required.—(Lead Cheers.) Then, where the
uniformity of laws might he preserved, for the purposts he
supposed, of limiting and guarding the franchise, the Noble
Lcird threw away the three years' occupation, and naeptta the
six months'. The 'Noble Viscount had refeired to the dif-
ferences between the Irish Bills of the 'resent and the last
session. An objection had been rel-sed that in the present
Bill the word "office" had been added to the qualification, to
which it was answered that the word was also in ttse preceding
Bill, and so
.it was ; but then it was in t /. eterence to the 10
qualification, and had been inserted to qualify and extend it;
that, then, was another attempt to degrade and lower the
qunlification,—(Loud cheers.) The power of incorporation
was granted geed-ally to the Crown ; and it was proposed not,
as in the Ungfiih Bill, to grant charters only upon application
from a majority of the inhabitants, bet upon the application of
any number of the inhabitants; so that three or four persons
would have it in their power, without the consent, and
even contrary to the wishes of the majority of the
inhabitants, to apply and procure a charter of incor-
poration. Again, what could be the object of encum-
bering towns where the population did not exceed two
thousand with so ponderous a machinery ? For, as had been
observed elsewhere, that measure marked the opinion of the
Government, and would mark the opinion of that House, if
they assented to it, that two thousand was the proper num-
ber for determining upon the title of a town to be incorpo-
rated. The present measure might also create 121 new Cir-.
poratiets in addition to the 50 especially provided for by it,
all subject to the great inconvenienees of 51(cb. a system as that
proposed. Could their Lordships thri, having in view the
due administration of justices And a proper municipal proi.
ment, give their support to a measure so exclusive, so oppres-
sive,porate property, he ha',
ea
the question ofCor-
and so inconvenient?
facts, to which he extracted from the schedules some
--.eas desirous of calling attention. It appeared
from the rerl'..)rt that the whole income of the Corporations was
about
33,0001., the greater part arising from tails; that the
welhuodlieegintceonmeof
Corporations.the boroughs
The inth Scheduleirdse he
a t
B
* o O,0t0w0e1;
ti
yn
).I,e contained.
one boroughs (their Lord
s ties were called upon to create 21
Corporations), of whieb, six possessed no income; or sax
more the aggregatt income was not above 601. per annuth;
thus leaving nine Corporations which possessed flf6peify
administer ; but the whole income was net YesSie than
1,5001.
pee annum. Their Lordships
the property to administer which ihen see the .extent of
con-
structed, with a full complement of Corporations would be
officers and servants. Now,
then, he would ask, whether anything o
be accomplished more safely or mer, f a public nature could
effectually than by the
proposition which he had the honour -to
submit
He found of those 21 last-mentioned boroughsto that House?
one in which there was any exclusive jurisdiction hethere was not
n ; in every
one of them were the petty sessions held
by the county magis-
trates. It was not then perhaps for him to inquire
what were the duties to be discharged for the
further
Corpora-
tions—( Loud cheers)—but he professed of all necessaryanduseful services he knew not one which would not be fully pro-
vided for by the Act 9th George IV. He thought that if the
numerous petitioners in favour of this Act really understood
what would be the effect of its provisions in too many cases—
that in point of fact it would operate as a pretext for levying a
borough rate pretty generally in the towns to which it applied
—either there would not have been so many petitions t-
presen