The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

AGRICULTUR U. DISTRESS.

At the request of Earl GREY,
The Duke of RICHMOND po,tponed his motion on
the subject of agricultural distress from Friday to Mon-
day next, as the second reading of the Rate in Aid Bill
was fixed for Friday.
NAVIGATION LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Earl of CARLISLE then rose to resume the ad-
journed debate on the Bill for the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws. He felt that be was labouring under great
disadvantage in having to follow the eloquent speech of
the Noble and Learned Lord last evening, which was
so calculated to excite those prejudices by which
their Lordships were supposed to be actuated. He could
not suppose that their Lordships were actuated by per-
sonal motives, and ho granted to his opponents that
which he claimed for his friends and himself, viz., the
being actuated solely by what they considered would be
for the benefit of the country. It he believed the mea-
sure would be prejudicial to the maritime or naval in-
terests of the country, he should say • that he
ought to encounter, not only defeat, but ignominy
for supporting it. He believed such an idea to be utterly
groundless. He supported it because he believed it
would promote the progress of the commerce of the
country. That commerce was the principal support of the
mercantile marine, and that marine was the main support
of the naval supremacy of the country. He agreed with
the Noble Earl in denouncing those who would sacrifice
everything for wealth, but the wealth which they sought
to promote was only the proper reward of hone-st
in-
dustry, and would tend to promote the peaceful inter-
course of nations.—(Hear, hear.) He would not go into
the history of the navigation-laws, nor into that which

was more properly the affair of his Noble Friend the
Secretary for the Colonies—the bearing of these
s upon the colonial interests of the country.
Ile could not look upon a navigation code with the rave"
rential awe which had been professed by many. At firs,"
it had been fruitful only in disasters. Its enactment had
been dictated by jealousy of the Dutch, and its
first fruits were two sanguinary wars with
land. What had been its effect ? Restriction
had necessitated restriction, until those restrictions
had been extended to Ireland and the colonies, and had
goaded Ireland into discontent, and America into a re'
volt and war, which ended in our being forced ti°
acknowledge her independence. This code had
thus founded our great rival, and these
ought to be set down as off-sets vibe°
any panygeric was made upon our navigation code.
He was, however, inclined to let bygones be bygones'
and to consider whether, in the circumstances of the
present times, in our present maturity of wealth o°'
power, it was worthy of this country to maintain th°,le,
restrictions which in former times she had thought
necessary. If the navigation code was the wisest
that tha wit of man could have devised at
the time of the enactment, they shoat consider
whether it was profitable now to maintain the?:
The battle of Trafalgar effectually cleared the ocean I°'
our ships more than any maritime code could have done.
It was long after the peace before continental natio/s,
could create a marine, but there was a growing 50";
of resistance to monopoly of trade on the part of see
Power. That resistance had been met by the reeiere;
city treaties. That spirit was now reviving. It should
be remembered that Russia and several other nations
could, by giving twelve months' notice, put an ens
to those treaties. The Noble Earl had said that,
the affairs of this country were properly administered'
there would be no fear of such improper threats. Would
the Noble Earl consider that we should be justified i°
treating such a motion as an improper threat ? r
was said last night that Russia bad no mercantile trade'
He had, however, a statement of the tonnage of vessels
belonging to Russia, Belgium, France, Spain, and For'
tugal, which during the last three years had entered the
ports of the United Kingdom from 1846 to 1848, esclai
sive of vessels in ballast ; and in those three years, °
all the countries he had enumerated, with the exeepti°ll
of France (and that only exceeding in one year), thei
largest number of tons was to be set down to Russia- 1,
1848, the tonnage of foreign vessels entering British
ports was, Swedes, 51,000 tons ; Dutch, 76,000 ; 1361'
glans, 38,000 tons; Spanish, 14,000 tons; Portuguese;
7,000 tons ; Russian, 76,180 tons. The Noble Earl
said these matters could be arranged by preliminarl
treaties ; but he was calling the attention of their Lord-
ships to the state of the country if foreign Powers refused
to renew their treaties on the same favourable tetenS,
and we lost our present direct trade with thetae'
The Noble Marquis the President of the Council state,'
that if foreign rowers forbade us to engage in their
direct and carrying trade they could throw more
than 200,000 tons of British shipping out of employ'
went. He found that during the last year there enter a
foreign ports 233,000 tons of British shipping, it%
cleared out 230,000 tons. That was the trade carrieo °
by British shipping from one foreign port to another':o
(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord had Os')
a very strong attack on the Noble Marquis (Lansdevittee
for saying that the whole of this trade was liable to
cut off; he had stated that it was a gross calumny, it%
attempted to account for the number of tons of Brit's
shipping engaged in foreign trade by saying that sons.
,
of the vessels made thirty-two voyages in the course el:
the year. He had, however, made a mistake in his es
culations, and mixed up the trade of steam-vessels
„.4he;
tween Belgium, Holland, and France. Of the 200.°'„,
tons of shipping to which the Noble Marquis alluded ;
being employed in foreign trade, 12,000 tons belonged tea
Hamburgh, and he had a return by which it appear
that instead of these 12,000 including steamers, they be'
longed to 62 ships, every name of which be had set doe/
and he could tell the Noble and Learned Lord tbse
steamers which passed directly to and fro between sail
foreign ports were scarcely ever employed in their 01'
rect. trade.—(Hear, hear.) If by a continuance of re;
sti ictive policy we were to forfeit our present intfirej
trade, he felt persuaded that the importunities and cot:
plaints of our traders and merchants, our forgers of
and our smelters of copper, would 'be pitched to a lar
e;
a orse note of distress than they were now from the
supposition that they should be prejudicially affected 1,
the present proposal. He had calledthe attention of the,
Lordships to the risk we should run by continuing teo
present state of things. The evils and inconvenience
had been abundantly illustrated in the most conclaslieee
and powerful manner by the daily recurring experiena,
of those who were most concerned in those matter
He had gleaned a few matters of fact as they were cent
stantly taking place under the operation of the prefio
navigation-laws, and he thought they would be foune.di
be of a most conclusive character. He would begin IV'
the article of cotton:—
lish
" That cotton which was brought to Havre on Engeoe
account in a foreign ship, which could not be disPes 0
of in France at any price, and which could have he
sold at Liverpool to advantage, might not be conveYebo
from Havre to Liverpool in a British ship, but might tie
reconveyed to the United States in in a foreign ship, ,70
thence brought to Liverpool in an American ship, tt'
depriving the British ship of employment, and dap a"
s
the English market of cotton when there was a clistres'
ing deficiency its the supply.
and
" That sugar could only be sent from Guiana
other colonies to England at a freight of 31, 10e. or 41
ton, while slave-grown sugar (which we are accused
.01
unduly encouraging) could be sent from
St. Croix in
Danish ships at 21. 10s. a ton, thus discouraging
supply of colonial and free-labour sugar; that no British
ships could be procured to export free-labour sugar 0001
Batavia.
" That copper is now produced in great and growing
abundance in Australia and cannot find a sufficient neni,:e
her of British ships to convey it to this country, and tue
high freights, which are the necessary consequent;
diminish the profits of what is sent, which has led to t
project of establishing smelting works in Ausaslis
instead of employing, first, the shipping, and, ntelt
the manufactures of England for that purpose: tegto:
again, as German ships which now carry poi
emigrants to Australia may not carry back copper orvi's
or meat, or any of the produce of Australia, as re:tehre
cargoes to this country, or to their own country, et
view to exportation to this country; if the market -
home should not be remunerative, therefore, at ileac
burgh they have also established smelting works in !1,0
own defence, again creating a gratuitous comelellt
with the manufacturers of this country. hi,
" That wrought hides may be imported into le,,
country in any quantity from France or other counter he
but it there was any superfluity of raw hides they roigho
not, under the navigation-laws, be brought to l'
country for the artificers of this country to manufacture'
unless they were sent all the way back to America. .0,
" That cochineal, anather article of most rapid ;%,
crease from the Canaries, has its chief depot at Cad it
whence it is taken in French ships to Marseilles, but
cannot be taken, under the navigation-laws, even if,
English ships to England, because the Canaries are °be
fared to be geographically in Africa, and therefore t,OO
produce must be imported in English ships from
Canaries themselves, where there is no; indepeeeedo
inducement for English ships to go, while at Cs he
there is always a multitude of British ships for &ej
purpose of bringing wine, but which are not suffer
to bring this valuable and much-wanted dye. US'
" That Madeira wines may not be brought from —be
bon even in English ships, where they would alwaYs 0
in great abundance. Nor the gums of Senegal freof
their chief depot at Marseilles. Nor the dye weeds,o,
West Africa, from a large depot of them at Marseillo
There may be a surplus supply of all these articles ;30
these ports; there may be a deficient supply at home; t,
ships loading with sherry and claret may be full of e°oo
venient chasms absolutely yawning for these 40.
assortments, but the prohibition is complete and
exorable.
" That nitrate of soda, more highly thought of 0 !
manure, has sold for from 2/. 6s. 6d. less at Hansbu 1,0
than here, bat for the same sum could not be bred
even here. - -

he
" That a parcel of Alpaca thread was actually t w;a
subject of this venerable transaction. It arrived 'Ell
Ilamburgh (a great depot for merchandise' from 5(341;4
America), from Peru, was purchased, sent to Hull' 60.
lused admittance, shipped thence to New Yorks 'g
exported to Liverpool, and sent into the manufactiolice
distr.ct., where it arrived too late for the demands Of.
market.
" That Java indigo, which was much wanted for B°,o
of the more delicate manufactures of this country, wtri
purchased iu Uulland, but in order to secure its 00'0
into this country, it was shipped in a Dutch vessel
the United States, and thence exported to this country..
" That palm oil, Manilla hemp, logwood, have all bees
waiting for shipment in the United States, and bees!' g
no British vessels were to be had they all failed of belt3P

sent.
" That it is stated by a Hamburgh resident that tha
operation of the navigation-laws with respect to 4/
supply of Peruvian wools to this country, such as 0.
brought to the continent of Europe first, is um:Pot/the
ably unfavourable to British manufacturers, because 0
German manufacturer is purchasing that article pO 1
is
a less price than the manufacturers can purchase 1, Do
Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the consequence roos,",,th
that the German manufacturer can afford to sell his ew
at' a less price than the English.
c.a ollf " That at Bombay and Calcutta though there 1- „rf
stunt uncertainty whether there will be ships to oeh* 0
produce to England, and the freight has been as hig4iied
eight guineas a ton, and though the same ports ere" or
with ships not only seaworthy, but efficiently CO if
minded, and which would bring home that prodoceos,
they were suffered to do so, yet because of that Pre, by
terous disability which attaches to ships mantle'
Lascar sailors, they are not suffered to do so.
the
001
I ha. with respect to the noblest because life
useful article of interchange, I mean the bread we oto,
upon, it is stated by the Board of Trade at Terc)..ere
September, 1846, that large quantities of produce"bo
forwarded to Montreal from the interior, where it ,ieeS
b
been produced durinr, the preceding winter, at P'hich
severely enhanced by the exaggerated reports *boo
reached Canada of the scarcity of bread-stuffs throllogbtain
Europe. On arrival it was found impossible to
_ldol
shipment for it at less than 6s. a barrel, and the2rweat
were threatened with insolvency alike from its eititPt the
or retention, and perceiving most distinctly ..t"_ the
chief cause of their difficulties was to be found
dioura, •
present navigation-laws of your Majesty's kieg :0 the
feeling of deep dissatisfaction therewith has arisen
minds of your Majesty's Canadian subjects?'
What did these numerous cases which were clailY11,1:41901
prove but that in countless ways—and we eoLfauviga.
track them through all their ramifications—Our !se tne
tiou-laws did impede, obstruct, or, if he 'l4 or
of the globe?—v--- y ae'
more homely epithet, bother all the operationsfi.,heerss
,is
trade in every part
make WI" •
seemed to be an ingenious attempt to mend
th eugeu
scription of goods' pay double freight, a.
...../aeo,
ill-feelinghdeerar.)animosity
secure
cbuerteW
the
en
Inoantgionvso•yogek
n oura nadn xaine

often deprived ourselves of a number of taloa voyages.
In our anxiety to grasp everything for ourselves we
raade (very one else, including our own colonies, so un-
enmfortab!e as to drive them to the necessity of adopting
measures of counteraction and resistance against us, if
we did not pave the way to more overt acts of hostility;
acid instead of appropriating to ourselves the resources
Of all other cauntries, we created a host of artificial diffi-
culties, end succeeded in rendering the ccean more hos-
tile even than the ancient poets had described it
(Rear, hear,) It had been said that the navigation-laws
succeeded in making the mercautile marine a nursery
for the royal navy, and that the modern system of steam
navigation required a larger number of hands to be
trained. But he thought it would be found that the
navy did not draw so large a proportion of the hands it
employed from the mercantile marine. If, however,
they were to rely on deriving considerable assistance
from the mercantile navy, he thought there was little
fear of the result when he found the increase of British
seamen from 1823 to 1847 had been from 165,000 to
252,000—(11ear, hear)—and when he found that, iu
British ships, the tonnage had increased 10 per cent.
With these facts before him, he could not but entertain
a very confident hope that we might still rely upon ob-
taining an adequate number of men trom our mercantile
Marine towards the manning of our national navy. It
had been said that there was a disposition in the mer-
cantile marine not to take an adequate number of ap-
prentices; but so far from that being the case, there were
10,000 more apprentices in the mercantile navy than
Were required by the provisions of the navigation-laws.
(Clear, hear.) Then it was contended that it was im-
possible for British shipowners to compete with foreign
shipowners; but upon many grounds he must dispute
that proposition. If they considered the strength and
durability of British ships as compared either with the
well-constructed ships of the United States, or the more
cheap, but less enduring ships of Russia and the powers
of northern Europe, he thought, whichever side of the
'comparison they took, they would find that the British
shipowner did not suffer any material disadvantage, not-
withstanding the greater expense of construction.
Several gentlemen who had been examined before the
Committee had proved this fact.
" Mr. Winter, of America, was asked, In what re-
spect should you consider that a ship can be built
cheaper in America than in England; where would be
the saving?—The only item in shipbuilding which, to
my knowledge, is cheaper in America than in England,
is wood, and this, for ships built in New York, has to
bear heavy transportation, much of the timber being
brought by sea from Virginia and Florida, and the plank
from Lake Erie, a distance of 500 miles. The iron is
imported from England, and pays a duty of 305., besides
the expense of importation. Copper is also much higher
than in England, and wages are nearly double.'
" Mr. Graham, the secretary of Lloyd's, says—' The
first-class British ships are the best ships in the world,
and are superior to American ships.'
" Captain Briggs states that such ships as he has
spoken of, costing 20/. per ton, Would not stand A 1
for twelve years. The Americans have no ships that
Would stand A 1 for twelve years in this country.'
" ' A ship could be built in England quite as cheaply
as in America, and an English ship always stands longer
.than an American ship.'
" You can build a twelve years' ship in England, and
fit her entirely for sea, as cheaply as you can build an
American ship of ten years: "
As to the North, it was said—
" A Hamburgh vessel, from 200 to 500 tons, iron-
fastened and coppered, costs, ready for sea, about 11/. a
ton. Sho stands seven years Al, and no more. The
English ship costs 201. a ton, stands twelve years A 1,
and four years more, making sixteen years. The Ilarn-
burgh ship, therefore, stands nine years less on the first
letter than the English ship. We deduct, as before, 1/.
a ton for each year, and we find the English arid the
Hamburgh ship are the same cost. We have yet to con-
, sider the expense of navigation.
"It is, therefore, fair to assume that the English ves-
sel, as far as regards its durability, is worth, as corn-
Pared with the colonial vessel, in the proportion of 22
:to 7."

. _
." If any ofeer proof be wanted that foreigners have
• no advantage over England in the build and navigation
of ships, we have it in the fact that when the shipping
trade is depressed, and freights non-remunerative, the
British shipowner is not ' the first ' to let his ship lie
rotting in harbour, and the sailors fill the workhouse.
The contrary is notoriously the tact. In those years
of depression the foreigner is the first to lay up his
vessel."
"The Parliamentary returns prove, beyond all manner
of doubt, that on every recurrence of distress in,shipping
there is a great compitrative decrease of foreign and a
corresponding increase of British vessels employed in the
foreign trade."
Did not this stand to reason, in addition to the assertions
.of competent well-informed men, when they considered
the resources from which shipbuilding was supplied ?
We furnished the iron, we manufactured their chains,
we furnished their sheet copper, their sails and cordage,
upon all of which articles they had to pay duty, while
we only had to pay duty on our timber; and it was stated
by competent witnesses that the British shipbuilder had
only to pay duty at the rate of 3e. fid. per ton, having
teo at our command the best timber in the world. The
attention of their Lordships had been called to the in-
crease of steam navigation, and he would ask what
nation could fit out steam-vessels as we could ? It
might be confidently asserted that in no class of
shipping, and least of all in steam and iron built
• vessels, could this country be said to stand on a dis-
advantage with any other country in the world.—(Hear,
hear.) And when we had swept away the last imperfect
remains of protection which we still retained under the
navigation-laws, we should be in a still prouder posi-
tion. And he could not but think that his Noble Friend
the President of the Council had met with unjust
censure, when be was reproached fur having spoken
of the existing navigation 'laws as shreds and patches.
Why, what were the terms in which the former advo-
cates of monopoly—the most obstinate adherents to the
navigation-laws—spoke of those laws since the passing
of the reciprocity treaties? Mr. Young said that the
protection was so inadequate where these treaties of re-
ciprocity existed that it could scarcely be called protec-
tion at all.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not without hope
that the final and complete removal of monopoly in these
matters would have the effect which almost invariably
attended similar branches of industry and employment
—that it would stimulate exertion and lead the way to
improved methods and more economical modes of
manegement. He disclaimed the invidious task of exa-
mining the short-comings and defects of our mercantile
marine; but it would be unwise to Fide ourselves too
much on its efficiency and perfection, because he feared
there was mu .h connected with the seamen, the sani-
tary state of the ships, and the qualification of masters,
that loudly called for amendment. The Noble and
Learned Lord had alluded to a work entitled " Two
Years before the Mast," and he had heard opinions
expressed on this subject by the author of that
work. He had not long made his acquaintance with-
out knowing that any opinion w hich he received from
him, if liable to mistake, would have been sincere and
straightforward. Mr. Dana had had long experience in
observing vessels in the Bay of St. Francisco, and he
said he thought the British sailor was a more thorough
sea creature than their own American seamen—that in
fact he was the best seaman in the world; but with re-
spect to the masters of merchant vessels, lie thought the
American captains were better educated, more generally
accomplished, and better instructed in those specific
branches of acquirement most necessary for them.—
(Hear, hoar.) The American ships compete with the
cheapest built ships in the world; we could, with regard
to strength and durability, build ships as cheap, and beat
the American ships in the ports of the United States.
That country, which could always present the largest
number of ships, and offer the lowest rate of freight,
must in the end secure the great proportion of the carry-
ing trade of the world.—(Hear, hear.) This was what
gave their envied ascendancy to the Dutch. Low rates
of freight would do for the traffic of the ships of the
sea what low rates of travelling did on shore, they would
create traffic where none appeared to have been wanting
before they would suggest wants which bad no:
been telt before; and not content with suggesting, they
would satisfy them.—(Hear, hear.) So that, consider-
ing that the repeal of the navigation laws would confer
advantages on the foreigners, it they liked—assuming
' that in some particular points we should be placed on
terms of disadvantage with reference to them, and that
sharp competition would ensue, yet, believing in the im-
pulse always given to trade when restraint was lessened,
and believing in the rebounding elasticity of British trade
to meet all rivalry, he could not doubt that we should
secure by far the largest proportion of the mercantile
traffic of the world.—(Cheers.) He could believe that a
system of exclusion and monopoly such as our naviga
lion code might have appeared plausible when our power
was confined within narrower limits—but now, when
there was no section or region of the world in which we
had not visited the shores and occupied the seas from
the Cape to Oregon, from Newfoundland to New
Zealand, every obstacle, every impediment, was multi.
plied ten-fold with regard to our own shipping, that of
, our colonies, and all the countries with which we bad any
communication.—(Hear, hear.) By our own prowess,
and enterprise and activity, we had so dotted the globe,
that to interrupt our traffic between our colonies and the
rest of the world would be to make our legislation
to an extent which it had never been before, a universal
Nuisance.—(Hear, hear.) He had endeavoured to lay
the chief stress on the advantages which a relaxation of
. the navigation-laws would confer on our commerce; but
he was not blind to the colonial part of the question, as
that which most immediately pressed on the attention of
the Legislature. The way in which be regarded and
explained the indisposition of the mercantile body to any
snob changes as the present was, that he had generally
observed when men of particular occupations and pur-
suits had been long addicted to them, and had acquired
,T 1 intimate knowledge of the intricacies and difficulties
by which these pursuits were surrounded, they were
• averse to measures which tended to throw open their
Pursuits to all the world, and became strongly disposed
to retain all the difficulties which they were accustomed
to. He must say that he believed if a royal road to
geometry could be discovered, that discovery
would be opposed by geometricians from a re-
luctance to see their favourite pursuit thrown op en
to all the world. Thanking their Lordships for the
Patient attention with which they had listened to him,
he would only further remark that whilst he antici-
pated the greatest benefits from the abolition of the
navigation-laws, by facilitating the intercourse of the
nations
of the world, and by the enrichment of this
with harmless wealth ; wealth which the Noble
opposite had last evening denounced, hut which
was unobjectionable when acquired by peaceful modes,
still he
dietionscouldh not listen quietly to that Noble Earl's pre-
.at the acquirement of wealth by the ate ileion
°I the nevi
the eav'lgation-laws would be attended with injury to
eurnmer4cLi Power of England, with a deterioration of her
terests. n:_arine, and with danger to her national in-
°Pinions ; ;idecould bring himeeli to entertain such
did not on the contrary think that the