The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-15 00:00:00

'Sellor, the Earl of Shaftesbury, and Lord Duncannon ; an il the
peaker of the House of Commons having been summoned
)), Sir Augustus Clifford, attended at the bar of the House,
:accompanied by several Members of the House of Coin-
mons to hear the same :—Murderers' Execution Bill ; Petty
Sessions (Ireland) Bill ; Chapels of Ease (Ireland) Bill ;
Instrments of
Societies Sasine (Scotland) Bill ; Benefit Building
Sill Bill ; Liverpool Fire and Life Insurance Company
; Blacklruth, &c., Small Debts Bill ; London and
'Croydon Railway Bill ; Preston and Longridge Railway
Bill ; Lone,on and Holyhead Roads Bill ; Heriot's Hospi-
tal Bill ; Christ's Hospital Estate Bill ; Ree's Naturaliza-
tion SID ; Reiss's Naturalization Bill ; Souchay's Naturali-
zation ; Schmidt's Naturalization Bill.
CHESHIRE AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY.
The Duke of SUTHERLAND presented several peti-
tions against the Cheshire and Manchester Railway Bill.
POOR LAW AAIENDMENT BILL.
Lord STRADBROOKE presented a petition from
trialbrooke, in Suffolk, against the Poor Law Amend-
anent Act.

EXCISE (IRELAND) BILL.
O the
(Irel nan motion of Lord DUNCANNON, the Excise
d)
Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Tuesday.
PRISONERS' COUNSEL BILL.
'f
The Order of the Day having been read for the Report
the Committee on this Bill bing received,
of
Lord WH A RN, CI, IFFE rose to oppose it. The alteration
cthe law in this respect was uncalled for, because the judges
ould now by the 'law of the land make an order directing that
sers should be defended by counsel. As matters now
stood, the counsel for the prosecution never influenced or
over-stated the case, and the object of both judge and
ecioeueinssioenl were to. elicit the truth, and obtain a right
were to upon tlie evidence given ; but if this Bill
they
pass, the counsel for the prosecution, knowing
e was to be; a speech from the prisoner's counsel,
elmwould endeavour to make the most of the case, and each
tnse,l would vi a with each other in endeavouring to pro-
duce
tnegreatesi.; impression on the minds of the jury. He
they
be
bought the In ost advisable course was, that the Judge
nut in. possession of the facts of the case, and
vv." glve the Sutry such directions as he might consider they
urraoted.
of felony,Ca ses of nisi pins differed entirely from cases
In ,?,very case of nisi pins there were two dis-
tinct '
datna •
Poi le as to the facts, and the other as to the
1:• ges ;in sh ort, there were two issues, and it was utterly
it:possible to c.. nne to any fair estimate of damages without
.I.e blterpositio a of counsel. In cases of felony wrong ver-
tucts were son ictimes given, and the real question was,
were
son
alteration would have the desired effect `,) He
thought that it .avould not, and hoped their Lordships would
agree to the motion with which he should conclude,
ilamelY, that th te •'Bill be read that day six months.
his Lord LYN:I(3HURST said that the course pursued by
Noble Frieakl on this occasion was one attended with
Nn
inconvenience. Upon the second reading of the
cussion,
isill, when the principle of the Bill was naturally under dis-
every I:tw Lord in that House expressed a strong
°Pinion in favo ur of the measure. His Noble Friend was
Presentle. upon t'aat occasion, and he had remained perfectly
si
another Stage of the Bill, his Noble Friend came down to
House, with an able and eloquent speech, for the pur-
Pose of attacking the principle of the Bill. This un-
steadiness or, purpose in his Noble Friend—this halting
between two, ()pillions, as it were—was productive of this
evil, that thlctelootuent speech of his Noble Friend must either
remain without an answer, or that those who supported the
other side of the question must again trouble the House
'Oby repeati7ar, arguments which thy had urged on the
mer ocilr.alon, and which then appeared to satisfy the
Mind of his Noble Friend, and were
favourably received by
the House . The Noble Lord stated that eloquence, an
Passion, at id zeal would be introduced into Courts of Cri-
d
urinal Jus• ice, and this he conceived an argument against
The Bill. It certainly appeared to be a most extraordinar
propositic
al to say that p
the only cases in which zeal, iny Vbich eloquence, and in which powerful reasoning should
111•°t be us ,ed were those cases in which the interests and
tves of -101°w-subjects were at stake. His Noble Friend,
jo addition to this, stated that he was quite satisfied that
the ca' ect of the system would be, that able and eloquent
Fs`v°c nes would procure the acquittal of prisoners in cases
.4
Wb it h they oin,ht to be convicted. If the rule laid down
by 1.
4. tird Coke were correct, namely, that " No Counsel is
-•ncl itua case of felony, for the evidence ought to be so
clear that it cannot be contradicted," and if that rule, as
Zourfi`nu'a and adopted by another Noble and Learned
arab' t!.L°l.d Nottingham), on the trial of Lord Corn-
144:„<tration of
_►.n.; were to be the true rule to prevail in the ad-
Criminal Justice in cases of felony, be
the ,io l'Yndburst) was not apprehensive of the effect of
Nol)Lje-Venee of Counsel in cases of that description. His
_rora, riend said that conclusions ought not to be drawn
iferente'll'ses in
which the admiuistration of justice was dif-
.ovwbsotielrdrinto.t take
"11
tha' of England.He (Lord Lyndhurst)
'Where' 'up' the titfth-1e House by answering that
I°o, Not he would refer to cases in point—to cases
seen the law was similar, and where this privilege had
;dm
dgranted without the slightest inconvenience. He had
414drIte Y "'Wed to the United States ; but since he had last
tunit ssed the House on this subject, he had had an oppor-
Le had Ye'l ascertaining how the system worked there, and
laiol th e satisfaction to hear that it was found to work
~,, out tile
slightest inconvenience. The authority to
wench he,
cdveisiv . should refer was exceedingly short, and it was
ferrm e' as it appeared to him, upon the question. He re-
-16 -; tli the West India Islands, and he would refer, in
14'w fire t instance, to the Hand of Jamaica, where the
the '1 as the law of England, and administered upon
saisi s ime Prpw a ors there inciples.
In the report of the Com-
all or.ers there was this question :—" Are Counsel
to
ni c
ti .
~
address a jury on behalf of a prisoner
.4 rh ni,nm cases in this Court ?" The answer was,
fro "eY are." "If so, is any inconvenience found to result
talg%ll the practice ?" '‘ None whatever." The person who
.ante(.l that report was Sir M. Scarlett, the Chief Justice of
:E island, and brother of the Lord Chief Baron of the
ithZ.-_,llegt.ler- Could any testimony be more conclusive than
Lice
r In all the other West India Islands the same pi-tw-
irl tient the
_ le: prevailed. He would beg the House to consider for a
ase, having
sllae case of a man bowed down with infirmity and
no physical strength, and yet to such a per-
lii'llvao assistance was afforded. That was the case of Lord
, at• Take the case of a foreigner, arrested for felony,
and Placed at the bar. He was naturally ignorant of the
zaws of ILhe Country, and of the course of proceeding ; and
,2twitlntanding this, he must conduct his own defence.
lbe co,nsequence was that the poor man became lost in a
fence.
triaze of perplexities, and would not say a word in his &-
With Again' take the case of a man born deaf and dumb,
ievi out the faculty of sight, charged with a felony. The
out
having been gone through, the judge said at the
T°fielusion ta the prisoner, " You have heard the evidence
:liatl°,er9etleat against you, and if you wish to say anything in your
ttQC
speakow, you may address the jury, as your counsel can-
t you
may
What could me more monstrous
an this ? And he could assure the House that he had
see!, cases in practice as bad as the one he had just de-
scri'oed. Yet this was the system the Noble Lord eulogized.
judlle would call upon their Lordshi as the hereditar
ges of this land, not to sanction the continuance of such .t.system ; and he would call upon the Right Reverend
rrelates, all of whom he respected and revered, and who
must be deeply imbued with the principle of justice, to wipe
foto, this stain—this relic of a barbarous age ; and, in con-
cluding, he thought he could not do better than read from
tn essay on the subject a short passage, which described
'mostforcibly his feelings and opinions upon the question.
It was written by a clergyman of the Church of England—
ihj a dignitary of that Church ; and he felt sure that the
paste which he should read would meet with the attention
5 their Lordships. The passage was as follows :—" We
have often blushed for English, humanity when we have
111 beard the reply, ' Your counsel cannot speak for you—you
45t speak for yourself.' This is the reply given to the
1111 Poor girl of fifteen, to the foreigner, to the deaf
ii,oin, to the stammerer, to the feeble and
V, to the most abject and ignorant of human
tngs- How often have we seen a mean wretch strug-
•lng against the agonies of his spirit and the rudeness of
Is conception—his awe at seeing persons of learned mind, 411 d his shame at the accusationbrought against him—lhis
I:strents and children perhaps gazing at him for the
waanstt
helpiTe• The mariner sinking in the wave does 1 .
more th I ' 1101. i
One
charitable
an us poor wretch. But age cannot lave it,
rule gnorance nor the modesty of woman. silences all the defenders of these wretched beings,
s,and
41 the bitterest moment of human misery mercy is blotted
eat from the ways of man."
Tbe Earl of RADNOR said that he was surprised at
Learned
the. _ sudden change of opinions in the Noble and .
"*„.l4td, for it was only within two months of the introduction
"I this Bill that the Noble and Learned Lord had been
tom must
convinced by authorities which, the Noble and Learned
have heard cited in every previous discussion
Zetbis subject. Up to the period to which be referred,
the Noble and Learned Lord had always been adverse to
aa*.e,,enange. He should, however, vote for the present
-"I", as he thought the present system so anomalous and
`),.ffensive that it ought to be altered, and that this measure
4°;11(1 in all probability lead to further alterations.
svhich lie
Lord LYNDHURST said, with regard to the course
had formerly taken, their Lordships had per-
nat. h. •
him in a previous discussion to enter into an expla-
t_aetion of the reasons upon which he had acted. He had
Ott.o, n stated that in the opinion which, he then held he had
illsten Sir Michael Foster as his guide ; he had adopted
~.,,OPlnion and. had entered into his reasons ; but after
,'"og aequ:red further experience, experience which he
obtained in his character as a Judge, and after full consi-
deration
of
the
the question, and after having fairly contrasted
t_ (.!PPosing arguments, the result was that he became
then that all those opinions were exaggerated, and
" Itc.eame to the conclusion which he had already taken