The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-16 00:00:00

ore of property, ad of course attended with the other I may be able to fix upon some individual defaulters, and
—t
rights of property hat it
catlbe made the object of barter ! afford an opportunity to the landlord, supposing your hypo
and sale? The Hon. MemleFr fire. Sheffield has placed, thesis to be correct, to single out a few victims on whom
of all men living, the most miserable and sordid construe- to revenge the disappointment he has experienced. Such
tion on this great privilege that I ever heard before. But would be the case supposing the utmost practical secrecy
w
the Honourable Gentleman had a manifest interest in declaring were kept up; but is there a man ho knows anything
that this privilege had none of the qualities of a trust' -and in of the feelings and habits of the people of th).-.., Country
Wresting it with all the privileges of private property, for he who does not in his conscience snot, that the secret •;;;,,
was the man who contended that the great security against abuse not be kept even by the parties thennapive..:
—(Hear.: )
in all cases of trust was the publicity of free discussion.— The Hon. Member for Lincele
( Hear, hear.) You arc trying to engraft the principle of between the gentlemen e:(1_, b.: drawn a comparison
the people of this country and
secret voting upon a country all of whose institutions are those of Gerrearn:.
He has stated that the German gentle-
founded upon the principle, of free discussion and publicity.
.._( Cheers.) You are trying to introduce amongst a people i pe-:,y,
mal:t is, -7,-,lerally speaking, a man of no great mental ca-
and indolent and unaapiring in his habits; and that
whose manners, and habits, and feelings are, and have
_bee.- ,
alien to it, a system et. concealment and secrecy ; it 13 from amongst the lower classes that all the bright spirits
because lam full convinced that this system ef '-...1 it is emerge who give a lustre to their age and nation i but
'secret voting tnat in England, on the other hand, the gentlemen of 'the
is revolting to tnie fixed habits, institutions,hnd feelings of the country take the lead, and hold a strong influence over the
people thret I mainly object to the neopointion of the Honour- n,inds of the Rinser classes. New, if the case is as eteted by
able Member for London. Ido not deny that some evil the Honourable Member, I must say that I Vat not disposed
exists in the present system, but, at the same time, I be- to give up the advantage which 1110h:11)1y
in my in
live that those evils have been grossly exaggerated. In -results to the country from the intimate connection opwhich
the midst of great excitement, and at a public electiren, exists between the English freemen and voters of OUT
where there is a peculiar latitude for freedom of epeech, counties and boroughs and the English gentlemen
where every appeal is encouraged by the beetile par- an opportunity which must obviously tend to fit the
ties to the feelings and interests of the voters, violent latter in a superior degree for their public duties. But
expressions are made use of, and threats of future there is another objection which I hold to the Ballot. I be-
vengeance are dealt out, which are ne':er intended to be car- lieve that in times of great public excitement and disaster
vied into actual execution. Ido
occupying tenants have actu bel!ieve that instances in which we could not with safety trust to the principle that every
logs on account of their v ell.; been deprived of their hold- man—whatever his degree of intelligence—whatever know_
are very rare. I
,do r etes being adverse to their landlords ledge he may have in public affairs—is equally fit for the
a threat; but I gel eit at all vindicate the execution of such exercise of a secret voice in the state. Your theory is that
its being :.eve the occasions are comparatively rare of any one man is as well calculated to give an opinion or exer-
"fere:ed. Ido very much agree with what has fallen cise an authority in public affairs as another. But if they give
from the Notele Lord opposite to-night on this subject. It their votes publicly, you know who are the persons who exer-
may be Presumption in me
to to say it, but when Ido see the cise this authority, whereas in cases of public calamity and ex-
Noble TAJord taking a manly tone and giving a direct negative citement, whenever they may occur, the great mass of the
to a proposition of this kind, in spite of the unpopularity which voters being freed from all considerations or interest in the
he may be risking in so doing, I cannot avoid expressing my property of the country—enjoying none of those reciprocal
admiration of such conduct ; though I feel in my own case that feelings of esteem between landlord and tenant which now
that very unpopularity acts as an additional motive why I should , exist—might with great ease put the Ballot to a most disas-
not shrink from performing what I
conceive to be my duty.— I trous and fatal test. There might arrive a time when great
( Hear.) As I have said before, I believe that the sevil of (delusion should exist on the state of public affairs, and a
the present system of voting has been exagneeratealn
there is a great discrepancy in practice ' and that general election take place during all the excitement con-
duces me- sequent on such a state of things ; and I say, that if the
daces held out during elections and the aeeme.l fulfilment of Ballot were in operation under circumstances like these, the
them afterwards. I believe that the leistances of tyrannical institutions of the country would be in great jeopardy and
and unjustifiable interference on tiee part of landlords are danger.—(Opposition cheers.) I think we should always be
co
m
p
rtivlyrre, !ethic' that so 'tar from the opportunity for in danger of disasters of this kind if we were to give the power
teir adding any thir,g to the value of their property, it of secret voting without the protection which the influence of
would, on the con'erary, materially increase the landlord's property at present naturally exercises. The Honourable
interest in his. centates if such interference were totally at an Gentleman has quoted Gibbon on this subject, but he has
ene._( Hear .) When the Hon. Gentleman tells me that I not favoured us with the whole passage in which that writer
am bound_ to correct all proved abuses, I venture to say that speaks of the practice of voting by Ballot in Rome. Let us
in any system of society of which lam aware, it would be ab- take the whole passage, and see the opinion which that writer
solueely impossible to frame any Constitution or any set of entertained of the influence which the Ballot had on society at
Dews which should not be susceptible of abuse in practice.— large :—" The tribunes soon established a more specious and
abuse—the
The trial by jury itself has been charged with popular maxim, that every citizen has an equal right to enact
use—the liberty of the press itself is constantly liable to the laws which he is bound to obey. Instead of the centuries
abuse; but shall I listen to any proposition for abolishing they convened the tribes; and the patricians, after an ineffec-
these important constitutional privileges simply because teal struggle, submitted to the decrees of an assembly in which
abuses have been proved in their exercise, and that without their votes were confounded with those of the meanest plebeians.
any remedy at hand which might not itself lead the way to Yet as long as the tribes successfully passed over narrow
greater abuses? No. In my opinion there are cases wherein bridges and gave their voices aloud, the conduct of each citi-
the removal of an abuse itself may be refused, from the fear of zen was exposed to the eyes and ears of his friends and coun-
inn
acurring a greater evil in its absence ; and I believe of the trymen. The insolvent debtor consulted the wishes of his cre-
B llot that it would incur infinitely greater evils than ditor, the client would have blushed to oppose the views of his
anyd which exist under the -present mode of free voting. I patron, the general was followed by his veterans, and the as-
o not believe, in the fir place, that any contrivance, wile- pest of a grave magistrate wns a living lesson to the multi-
don's Mr. Green's Ballot-box, or the Hon. Member for Lon- tilde. A new method of secret Ballot abolished the influence
don's Ballot-box, Iviweveringenious their mechanical construe- of fear and shame, of honour and interest, and the abuse of
tion may be, will ever persuade the people to remain, in all freedom accelerated the progress of anarchy and despotical."
cases, perfectly satisfied with the result which they unfold. When next, Sir, the Hon. Member for the city of London
I greatly distruct the secresy of the Ballot. A Ballot-boa quotes gibbon, I hope this will encourage him to give the
is to be.c sent to ever), peiring_pinne,
under the charge of teltole passage instead of only a portion of it.—( Hear, and a
this,avepwubliofficer, who is to be answerable for
betsi inviolability. laugh,) The Hon. Member for the city of London asks why
I think, is an enormous trust to rced in any
individual, and I have that confid e
ehc in the ingeeeety, as far as ancient
the Ballot may not be as beneficial in England as it was in an-
character, and the skill of the
prpeeoepsitteinonf thistn co/ntre,
• . . the cient countries? Now, my answer is, that lieve that—assuming your yto be- countries, in which the Ballot was prßactllioset.d, alrewilclonnocterrneefedr,
tyranny of landlords and their pun. t.fi
). ine true of the the weight of authority is against the .
election matters—no Ballot-bee that 1 ..ule interference in to any hacknied passage in any of the ancient writers against
de-
whose ever hands intrusted, would could be devised, in the Ballot ; but I will advert to a passage in which
iP
tee against their curios'ey prove an effectual guaran- scribes a voter at Rome going to the Ballot. Itl s
ilaly short
read
might be the effect of 'lO-sc 1- There is no knowing what passage, and, with the permission of the House,
what mechanical skill *; hs' bribery, there is no knowing it. It is a passage in which Pliny, adverting to will
evils
the Honourable
I from
mr.mbemr:g t be able to effect, to frustrate which various writers had prophesied would resu t.
sions also in whnch the s ingenuity. There must be occa- secret voting, thus describes the elector proceeding. to give
suaded of the public mind might hardly be per- his vote :—" Proposcit tabellas, stylum
.accepit, caput con-
, existence of perfect fair play ; because after didit, neminem veretur, se contemnit."—(Hear, hear.)
Promises received and public tamed,
if
-- 'those promises arepe disappointed expectation generally enter- He retired from the Ballot self-degraded because he was
suspicion,a p pointed and
which that
but e x p
te ct a tfi o n consciohus of
is disanpointed, there will be assmallerhavicnrg:intooltdhatnhattheli hich we' are no told is
evowter at present commitsw in
que':3!tly occurs in France, of somebody aving tampered° withre yaiemllenss to the influence of others. But how are these
tbe
awakened
Henry hear.) And if once the suspicion is moral offences to be accurately estimated? And how are
. that any paid agent of the Government, or any you to institute a comparison between the voice of one in-
enhterested friend of the nominees, had by any means added to 'dividual, who is now induced to show that he is a friend
in-
the ee number of votes for the returned candidate, as is constantly to his landlord by openly voting for him, and the virtue of
beh .case in France, depend upon it your ballot-box will not another individual who may be induced to gratify private
bebecause,
tencaeuxstestenbee threemonths afterwards--( Hear, and a laugh) spleen or prejudice by giving a secret vote against his land-
,an
above,
that. you are. parting with all the means of lord?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now, a man's opinions, whatever
detecting use, if commetted.—( Opposition cheers.) I they are, are known. Why would it be better that they
object therefore to the Baßot, in the first instance, because I should be concealed ? Why is a tenant not to pay any
entertain great doubt va'nether any mechanical skill which reverence to the judgment of his landlord? At present he
may be brought inte, operation for its protection may not is in many instances content to listen to that judgment.
be over-matched luy superior ingenuity • and, in the next An Hon. Gentleman has talked of the influences that affect
place, because, judging by the experience' ot other countries, the country gentleman ; but why may not the same influences
I believe theet it will lay open those who are entrusted with be allowed to affect the farmer? Going on to apply the
the ree=avgement of the balloting to great and constant passage which I read from Pliny, I ask if there. is any
suspi`zirellos of unfairness ; depriving us at the same time of evil arising from the practice of open voting which
all weans of allaying the irritation of the public, and quiet- would not be much more than counterbalanced by the evils
inert suseicions when once awakened.—( Hear, hear.) In France arising from secret voting ? What principles of deception and
the number of voters is 160,000. Ido not believe that there falsehood may you not inculcate by the introduction of such a
is any other object in employing the Ballot in the elections practice ? Might not those principles have a still more inju-
in that country but the view of protecting the voter from rious effect on the national character even than pecuniary cor-
the influence of Government ; but at the same time is it not rtiption ? May not the present evil be much more tolerable
notorious that in almost every recent election in that coun- than the evil that might proceed from the practice of asking
try there have been constant complaints of errors, of names for and obtaining promises for the performance of which there
put in improperly, and of numbers inaccurately stated ; or, would be no security ?—( Hear.) On those grounds, being
as the Noble Lord has just observed, have there not been re- perfectly aware that I have introduced no novelty into the dis-
peated imputations against the Government of undue influ- cussion, but being unwilling to be supposed capable of leaving
ence ?--( Hear.) The first charge against the Government of the Noble Lord to bear all the unpopularity of opposing
the Prince Polignac was that of having tampered with the the Honourable Member's motion, I think it my duty to say
elections ; and at every succeeding election is there any one that I concur in most of the sentiments expressed in the
who is blind to the fact of the preparations with which
it is Noble Lord's speech ; and that I thank him for the direct
met, the circulars which are sent out from the Government to and manly manner in which he has met the subject. Sir,
their agents throughout the provinces, and the perfect know- one word more. The supporters of the Ballot deal largely
ledge which the Minister ',n Paris appears to enjoy of the dc- in prophecy. They complain of the present state of
gree of zeal and good eervice rendered by every one of his the franchise, and they predict that there will be no se-
subordinates ; and, .iastly, the dismissals and changes which curity for its free and beneficial exercise until the Vote by
hear.)
so invariably. t-eee place at this critical period.—(Hear, Ballot is established. Why, Sir, I well recollect the former
But t will grant, for the sake of argument, that prophecies of the same persons with respect to Parliamentary
the 8a110t...00x may insure secrecy—I mean mechanical Sc- Reform. I well recollect when the Reform Bill was in agi-
erect'', and that the conduct of the public' functionaries em- tetion how confidently they talked of the great advantages
ployeet in the elections shall be totally free from all suspicion which the people would derive from the measure. But how,
of unfairness—and then, even admitting all this, I must ob- according even to their own account, have those predictions
nerve that we should not be introducing a new
system of been accomplished ? We have heard an Honourable Gen-
voting amongst a new people, and that there is a very great tleman declare that England was never in such a state of
P
difference between ingrafting it upon the institutions of the humiliation and suffering in that respect as at the present mo-
people of this couutry, and taking it as one of the original mint. The Honourable Gentleman says that the forms of
ingredients in the political Constitution of the United States. tree election remain, but that the spirit is gone. And this
However well the practice of secret votin may be adapted is the state of things which has proceeded from the Reform
g
to American habits, here I maintain that
public feeling and from which so much was anticipated. The improvements
all the habits of the people are repugnant to such an
expo- made in our elective franchise have, it seems, reduced
client. It is at all times a difficult matter to discuss the England to the same state in that respect as that of Rome
laws and habits of other Stetes ; but, judging from the ac- in her decrepitude. Certain forms remain, but the spirit
counts of travellers, I de, not believe that there is any coon- of liberty has fled from them. Now, Sir, let us contrast all
try in the world in 'which party feeling is more prcdomi- this with the promises which were held out to us four or
nattily displayed, and where men are more prone to boast 0. five years ago. And if we find after making that contrast
their conduct 'el election contests, than in America. So that, that there has been a grievous disappointment of those pro-
in fact, I de) not believe that in the United States the Batlot mists, am I not justified in entertaining considerable - appre-
is suffici.ent to insure secrecy of voting.—( Hear, hear.) But hension that similar predictions with respect to the benefit to
evaivtng all these arguments, I will first ask the House to con- be derived from the Vote by Ballot may experience similar
cider how we shall proceed with a general election after the falsification ?—( Hear, hear.) May I not fear that if the l3als
Ballot has once been put in operation. It is quite clear from lot be now adopted we shall be. told, four or five years hence,
The very arguments of the Hon. Gentleman who opened the that it has turned out quite an unsatisfactory measure, and that
debate, and who always argues this question with a degree s.nne further change is indispensable ? Sir, my conviction is
of ability which renders it unnecessary for it to have the that such would actually be the case. My conviction is that
charm of novelty, and makes me listen with great deference it would then be found out that this plan of secret voting was
and attention to all he says, but without, I must add, not sufficient for the purpose of its proposers. My convon
the least approach to conviction—it is quite clear that if the is that we should then be told that the privilege of indulging
Hon. Gentleman's own arguments be correct, we should alto- in secret voting merely afforded a cloak for corruption, and
gether interdict the practice of canvassing at elections.— that there was no cure for the evil but that of not merely ex-
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman says, " Did you ever tending the elective franchise to Household Suffrage, but of
bear of any one attempting to influence a witness or a juror in rendering it coincident with the age of twenty-one. —( Hear,
a court of justice ?" and maintained that "it was es great a hear.) I resist the motion of the Honourable Member for the
crime to interfere with a voter at an election, as a juror or a city of London, not only on the ground of its intrinsic de-
witness."--(Mr. Grote was understood to express dissent.) merits, but also on the ground of the inevitable consequences
I beg the Hon. Member's pardon—l pay great attention to which I see would result from its adoption. The Right Hun.
what he says, and I think I repeat him correctly. Well, Baronet on sitting down was lou cheere.
then, ibis an equal crime to influence a voter, as to influence Mr. C. BULLE R, rose amidstdly cries of d"
divide, divide."
a juror or a witness. But the Hon. Member himself says, The Right Honourable Baronet (he observed) had come for-
that there should be an influence of property at elections. ward in a chivalrous manner to defend the Noble Lord from
But let me ask how this is to take effect, and how it is to be the attacks made upon him in another quarter. Now,
reconcilers. to his principles? Did the Hon. Gentleman ever although he gave credit to the Right Honourable Baronet
hear tae the influence of property in a court of justice ?—of a for the magnanimity of his conduct towards a political oppo-
Inatt corning up to a juror, or a witness, and saying, " You ncnt, he could not forget that the most effectual method of
Vete me so and so, and I expect you will give your evidence damaging such an adversary was to assist him in in-
ept- your verdict accordingly."—( Loud cheering.) The creasing his unpopularity.—( Hear, hear, hear, and a.laugh.)
Hon. Gentleman says that it is legitimate for a landlord When the Right Honourable Baronet said he had not
to appeal to the reason and affections of his tenants—but introduced any novelty into this discussion, he did him-
let me cbs.e.ve that is precisely an appeal which would be self great injustice ;f he certainly hd uce
Most illegal aril unjustifiable when addressed to a juror or into it great novelty ofor discussion. He wouldintro not d
refer witn-ss ; and, therefore, though it may be argued very phi- to ancient history as copiously as the Right Honourable
losephically in the abstract that the dices of an elector and Baronet had done; but he would just remind him that
of a juror are equally sacred, yet practically they are not on Cicero said, " that the Ballot opened the front of man."
the same footing. The lion. Gentleman says that there is The Right Honourable Baronet, referring to the elections in
no use in asking for a promise from a voter unless we are sure France, said that there was a tampering with the Ballot-box ;
the promise will be kept. Now, I can only say, that if this that after the votes had been deposited in the box they were
is the Hon. Member's argument, it only shows how weak is nut safe, but were exposed to be tampered with by the re-
bis case.—( Hear, hear.) lam perfectly satisfied of the course turning officer, who, consequeetly, frequently made a false
which the landlord would pursue were the Ballot put in op- return.-._( Hear, hear.) Now, he denied the Right Hon
ration—that is, supposing the hypothesis of the tyrannical Baronet to find an instance of this ins
xtlkel whole his-. and undue interference of landlords with electors true. The tory of France, from the time of Louis 11. Many
landlord would go round to his tenants, and would say, " I elections had been illegal ; but there was not an instance of
think you have always found me a good landlord, we have al- one which had been tampered with in the manner described
ways agreed well together, and our interests are the same ; I by the Right Hon. Baronet. The illegality consisted in
ask you to promise me your vote for such or such a candidate." the returning officer depriving the elector of his right of
The promise so demanded would be given, and I venture to add, writing down his vote secretly, and compelling him to write
that in nine cases out of ten, in spite of your Ballot-box, it it down in public. As to the opinion of the people of France
would be kept.—(Opposition cheers.) Your Ballot-box secures or of the people of America, with respect to the Ballot, he
this. There may he some person here or there who has a did not pretend to be intimately acquainted with it. Nor
grudge against his landlord, who is an ill-tempered, bad- would he refer, as he might, to the statement of travellers on
conditioned felleiv—( Ironicali cheers from the Ministerial side) that subject. But he would advert to much higher
....-who has read, he last tirade in a Radical news- evidence. He would advert to the public testimony
paper, and who will take. a. Pleasure in voting against his land- afforded by the conduct of nations, as showing. what the
by y
land. But cases of this kind will be the exception, and not thought of the efficiency of the system of voting Ballot.
the rule ; and in general I believe that the promises of votes He would challenge the Right Hon. Baronet to show an
at elections will be kept. But suppose, on the other hand, instance in all the countries of the modern world in which a
that these promises should not be kept, what security, let me state, adopting a representative Government, had not, at the
ask, do you give the tenant against the tyrannical interference same time, adopted the Vote by Ballot. In all the new States
and suspicions of his landlord ? Four hundred votes have of America that had been done ; in all the alterations made in
been promised, and only three hundred given, and the elec. the old States, that had been done. In switzerland the same
tion lost. An inquiry is instituted,
you do not believe it nos- and though the utmost se. thing had occurred. Where the States were free there the
erect' is kept up, I put it whether
Ballot was found ; where they were not free
the Ballot did not
sib's that before very long the
vigilant eye of the steward exist. All the cantons in Switzerland whichpartookof
the