The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 17, It-:36.

Majority —ss
The amendments were then taken into consideration.
Mr. WAKLEY begged to know what Bill they were
upon, and what clause ? He really did not know
what was going forward.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
If the principle of the Bill had not been interfered with,
and that the amendments of the Lords were printed, and
taken into consideration on Friday, neither himself nor any
of the Hon. Members near him would offer any opposition
to it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON said the Lords' amendments have
only tended to render the Bill more popular.—(Hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY contended that in the clause under
discussion the meaning of the word " land" had been very
considerably extended.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL defended the clause.
PRISONERS' COUNCIL BILL.
In consequence of a Message from the Lords, a Con-
ference was held in Committee-room No. 5, on the subject
of the Lords' Amendments to the Prisoners' Council Bill.
The Managers informed the House that the Lords insisted
on their amendments to the Bill.
Mr. EWART gave notice that be should move the con-
sideration of the amendments on Friday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that be should on
Friday move that the Commons do not insist on their
amendments to the amendments of the Lords.
COMMON FIELDS INCLOSURE BILL.
The House then resumed their discussion on the Lords'
amendments to this Bill.
Mr. LEADER said the House must see it was impos-
sible to go on with the consideration of the Lords' Amend-
ments without their being printed.
Mr. HUME said he found it impossible to follow the
Chairman in this Bill.
After a few words from Mr. WAKLEY, Mr. LENNARD,
and Mr. A. PELHAM, it was agreed that the amendments
should be printed, and taken into consideration on Friday
next.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A Message from the Lords announced that their Lord-
ships had agreed to the County Polls Bill, and the Church
Temporalities Bill.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the third reading of this Bill.

Mr. A. TREVOR opposed the Bill. He considered it
an inroad on the elective franchise, and that the effect of it
would be to deprive many voters of their votes. He would
move as an amendment, that the Bill be read a third time
this day three months.
Colonel SIBTHORP seconded the motion.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when the numbers were,
For the motion
For the amendment ,. 1
Majority
--49
Colonel SIBTHORP proposed a Clause, by way of
Rider, to prevent bribery on the part of the Government
by giving places to parties in order to procure their votes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that such a clause would weaken the effeet of.this
(Cheers.)

Col. SIBTHORP said that he had proposed the clause
as an additional trap to catch the Government. He be-
lieved they would be what was called a poser.—(Laughter.)
Mr. TREVOR hoped his Gallant Friend would divide
the House upon the subject, if he did he should go along
him, although he was alone. He was used to that
now.

After some further observations from Colonel Sibthorp
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Palmer, stran-
gers were ordered to withdraw.
The House then divided, when there appeared--
For the clause
Against it

... 45
Majority -43
On our return to the gallery we found
Mr. A. TREVOR on his legs, moving that the 4th clause
be struck out of the Bill.
The House divided when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against it

44

Majority 4
—4O
(LEFT SITTING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
ROYAL ASSENT.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, the Earl Of SHAFTESBURY,
and Viscount DUNCANNON, sat as Commissioners to-day
at four o'clock, to give the Royal Assent to the several
Bills passed since the last Commission.
The SPEAKER, attended by several Members, having
appeared at the Bar, the Commission was read by the
Clerk, and the Royal Assent was given in the usual form
to the following Bills :—The Slave Owners' Compensation
Bill, the Slave Treaties Bill, the Militia Pay Bill, the Re-
gistration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Bill, the Mar-
riages (England) Bill, the Secular Jurisdiction (York and
Ely) Bill, the Medical Witnesses Bill, the St. Clement
(Oxford) Marriages Bill, the Creditors (Scotland) Bill, the
Exchequer Offices Bill, the Valuation of Land (Ireland)
Bill, the Sunk Island Road Bill, the Metropolitan Cemetery
Bill, and the Langford Estate Bill. -
The House then adjourned during pleasure.
The House resumed at Five o'Clock.
The Grand Jury Presentment Bill, and the Exchequer
Bills Bill, were read a second time, on the motion of Lord.
DUNCANNON.
The Coal Trade Bill went through Committee without
amendment as did also the Pensions Duty Bill, the Poor
Law Loan Repayment Bill, and the Tithe Composition
(Ireland) Bill.

GREEK LOAN BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Mr. BERNAL, and others from the Commons, brought up
the Parochial Assessment Bill.

The Inns and Alehouses Bill went through Committee,
and was reported without amendment.
On bringing up the report,
Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the omission of the
sixth clause, which after a conversation across the table,
between Lord LYNDHURST and Viscount MELBOURNE,
was agreed to.
Lord LICHFIELD moved the first reading of the Paro-
chial Assessment Bill.—Agreed to.
The NOBLE LORD gave notice that to-morrow he would
move the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order to
pass the Bill.

The Stannaries Courts Bill, and the County Election
Polls Bill, were read a third time and passed.
The Lists of Voters Bill, and the Copyright Compensa-
Con Bill, were read a second time. On the latter,
Lord LANSDOWNE said he would state its purport
to-morrow, on going into Committee.
The Earls Rosslyn and Brownlow, Viscount Hood, the
Bishop of Gloucester, Lords Redesdale, Lyndhurst, and
Fitzgerald, were appointed as Managers for the Lords, to
hold a Conference with the Commons, on the amendments
made to the Prisoners' Counsel Bill.

The Earl of ROSSLYN, the Manager of the Confe-
rence, on returning to the House, stated that the House of
Commons still persisted in their objections to their Lord-
ships' amendments.

common responsibility rested on the Government for the tont
of triumphant expectation in which they spoke a thy_ atzit. Or
the Queen. The same tone was held by. part 'Jr.,: public
press, which, in their leading artiri:::, spoke of the resources
of the Queen as ittevh.r.',";sii-tale, of her Generals ae bk..)\,e anti
skilfel, and ot the Spanish people as_, rrienaly to her cause.
He felt confident that not tee shilling of these loans would be
paid, and that they who advanced their money
I would,kiVe
nothing for it but blurred and blotted
plece o'fOatit+. N ow,
what were the main, the leadith featUFet nf this boasted Con-
stitution of 1812? First) tlWre. was universal suffrage. This
might please Hon. Gentleman opposite, the o.et;.
Member for Finsbury or others, who lee, riot studied the
lessons of history, and had not yet had much experience in
the workings of tho British Constitution. He looked upon
universal suffrage as a great evil. But this was not all;
for, by the Constitution of 1812, there was an intermediate
election. In this the electors had, in fact, on inieiediate
connection with their representatives. 'the representa-
tives under the Constitution of 181 e were few in number,
greedy, attending only to their own interests, and caring
nothing for principle. It was a system which, to the tVils
of oligarchy, superadded all those of a get % democracy.
This system was tried in France.) telt it lasted only ten
months. In the third place, this Constitution of 1812 re-
cognised no religion but the Roman Catholic. Now after
all the discussions they had had for years in that House
on freedom of conscience, was there one Member in it who
could be friendly to a Constitution like this ? The English
Government of that day did not approve of this Constituthm.
It was left for some future Government to do that. The
conduct of the Cortes under that Constitution was the sub-
ject of much complaint in England, because they attended
so much to local and so very little to general interests, The
Hon. Member for Kilmarnock laughed. Did he know that
even the divine Arguelles himself never went to the Cortes
without being armed with a dagger to protect him-
self? Arguelles himself mentioned this to a friend of Ma.
Under that Constitution there was no Up pee 1i use. It
was in fact an exotic plant that never could flourish in Spain.
The Cortes was to be triennial, and the Royal authority
would have no veto. This Constitution was hostile to the
wishes of the Spanish people, and whoever supported it
could not be an admirer or supporter of the British Con-
stitution. There were times when it became necessary to
support a Government against the democratic principle.
He regretted the absence—(we could not hear of whom,
and the Hen. Member continued 'for a long time quite in-
audible.) Ferdinand was placed on the throne without a
blow having been struck for the Constitution.—(The Hon.
Member was again quite inaudible.) In 1820 some diffi-
culties arose. Mendizabal excited rebellion in Spain (as
we understood.) He was called from the Stock Exchange
of London, to manage the finances of that country. He
recently went over a second time, and was placed at the
head of affairs. It was disgraceful to see a man taken from
the Stock Exchange. of London, and made the first Mi-
nister of a great country. It waP., said he did not know it
to be so ; but it was said that he was the great agitator in
the present commotions. The Queen was torn in pieces
between two contending parties. She was scarcely
Queen de facto. What Hope was there for her cause
when one third of. Spain was in the hands of the
Carlists, and t'ae rest under' the controul of the dis-
affected ? There was only one hope for Spain, and
that Was to recognise the legitimate claims of Don Carlos.
The classes most hostile to them were Radicals and Re-
publicans. From 1820 to 1823, Spain was disgraced by
more atrocities than ever took place in any country, except
during the French Revolution. A libel was written by
the Canon Vinuesso (as we understood). He merely re-
commended in it that the Constitution should be settled
upon the principles of the old system. He was sentenced
to the gallies for ten years, and after that dragged out by a
band of assassins and butchered. Did the Hon. Mem-
ber (Dr. Roaring) hear of him ? (" Yes," from Dr. Bow-
ring.) Did he hear of the Bishop who was shot by order of
Mira ? Did he hear of the massacre of Corunna, where
fifty-two persons convicted of offences not capital, and
forty.two others, were placed in a vessel, two by two,
Sabred, and then thrown into the water ? Such were the
happy days of the Member for Kilmarnock. He would re-
peat, there was no chance for Spain but in recognising the
claims of Don Carlos. He was a man of firmness. They
might be sure he would not yield while the least hope of
success remained. He proved this when Napoleon came
to Spain. He then said, " My brother Ferdinand may
resign his authority, but I never will give up my rights."
Couple that with what has since occurred, and it proved
that he was of a resolution never to yield. His san-
guinary decree, as it had been called, was often alluded
to. The fact was, that, in issuing such a decree, he acted
upon laws which long existed in. the Basque provinces. It
was death to enter those provinces in arms. He should
like to know what course Government meant to pursue
under the present circumstances of Spain ? If they con-
nected themselves with the Constitution of 1812 they must
form a union with the woman-killer, Mina, and with the as-
sassins of Barcelona and Corunna. He would conclude
by moving for copies of any dispatch or dispatches received
from Mr. Villiers, the Ambassador at Madrid, relative to
the proclaiming of the Constitution of 1812 at Malaga,
Cadiz, and other places.—{Throughout the whole of his
speech we regret that the Hon. Member was audible only in
half or quarter sentences.]
Captain BOLDER() seconded the motion.
Dr. BOWRING said the Hon. Gentleman greatly mis-
represented some facts. It was true there were in Spain
only two great parties. The Constitution of 1812 was
sanctioned by history, and by the usages of Spain. Under
that Constitution there were three bodies of electors, and
not two. He never knew that Arguelles carried a dagger
for his defence when he attended the Cortes, and he had
often accompanied him there. Universal suffrage existed in
Spain from 1213. They never had a second Chamber,
and the Cortes always assembled annually under the old
Constitution of Spain. Mina informed him (Dr. Bowring)
that he had nothing to do with the trial and conviction of
Cabrera's mother. He only signed the warrant for her
execution in discharge of his duty as Captain-General of
the province. He hoped the Government of this country
would rejoice at seeing the principle of freedom succeed in
Spain. That principle he had no doubt would ultimately
and permanently crush Don Carlos.
Captain BOLDER() differed from the Hon. Member
(Dr. Bowring) as to the probable result of the contest in
Spain, but at the same time he thought that the interven-
tion of the third party who had now sprung up would be
fatal to the cause of the Queen. The state of the Legion
was very bad ; they were badly feci, badly paid, badly
clothed, and, there was every reason to believe, not at all
enthusiastic in the cause of the Queen. Should the
Queen's cause fail, what would become of General Evans ?
The Noble Lord said that he was an independent officer,
and in the service of Spain. But, suppose the men of the
Legion, from the want of pay or other causes, should mu-
tiny, and that Gen. Evans's life was placed in jeopardy, he
hoped that the Noble Lord would take care there should
be ships to embark him and his suite. He would be glad
to see the dispatch containing Major Owen's orders, that
it might at once be ascertained what was the real position
of these marines as regarded General Evans.
Lord PALMERSTON—It is not unnatural that the
Honourable Member for Sandwich, who takes so lively an
interest in the affairs of Spain, should take an opportunity
at the close of the session again to record the opinions
which he entertains both of the merits of the respective con-
tending parties, and of the probability of success on the one
side and on the other, and I am not aware that in the ob-
servations made by the Hon. Member there really was
much to call for any reply on my part. The Hon. Mem-
ber has repeated the opinions which he is well known to en-
tertain ; he has repeated the predictions which he has
already made. With regard to his opinions, they are no
doubt foundedin such sincerity on his part, that however I may
differ from them, I feel they are entitled to respect. With
regard to his predictions, they will be judged of by events,
as his former predictions have been judged by, and by those
events the Hon. Gentleman is no doubt prepared to abide.
I say, then, that the Hon. Gentleman will not expect me to
follow him into a discussion of the merits of either the claims
of Don Carlos, which we do not admit, because the Spanish
nation do not admit them, or the merits of the Royal sta-
tute, of which, as far as a stranger of Spain may form an
opinion, was an approximation to a good form of government
in that country. Neither will he require me to discuss with
him the merits or demerits of the Constitution of 1812, which
also, if I may venture to express an opinion, does not seem to
me a form of Government which could be practically carried
into execution, and which, even if it were established for a
moment by the general concurrence of the nation, yet for
the sake of permanent tranquillity it would be indispensable
to make in that Constitution great and fundamental altera-
tions. But these are questions which concern Spain and
Spaniards, and which we are not called upon to decide.—
(Hear, hear.) I most sincerely wish and hope that the
Spanish nation may acquire free institutions. What the
particular form of whose Constitution shall be it remains
for them to decide.—(Cheers.) But judging, as the Hon.
Member wishes us to judge, from the lessons of history and
from the experience of former ages, and judging also from
those general principles which one is in the habit of apply-
ing to human affairs, I certainly am far from thinking that
any thing which has lately occurred ought to lead me to
believe that the Carlists and a despotic Government are
more likely than they were to be established at Madrid.
The Hon. Gentleman has said that the history of Spain
shows how unwise it is to endeavour to anticipate events,
and to force prematurely upon a nation institutions for which
they are not ripe. I say, Sir, the history of Spain shows,
and is one additional example to many which the history
of the world affords, that if, on the one hand, it is unwise
to force with too great rapidity changes on a nation, it,
on the other hand, is most unwise and most dangerous
to stop and arrest the natural progress of improve-
ment, and to attempt to make the social condition of man
stationary, and that those who do so, as the Spanish nation

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.!,afice ami ,cri•eat t;1 id's on fatiiPe ...,.6-o•l4iiiiiiiiS: -The recent
history Of Sp in shli*s;' at all:C6iitS; tilliia[ triitli; that
nothiiiil 1s Oi ditiigeiEla Gil ,Ilic.. OA of a Say.ereign as to
break faith with hii People:. ' Ferdinand did break faith
with the Spanish people when lie tethrned 1.'6 h' thrOhe in
184', He l&Milicl3, bii',-;iiiier4l NO if „liii iAlii hiii sid4nt,
ill'a ICAI.-i!',litlitiOn of 181.2, he would at least take steps to
give to Spain a free ieprekiitatike 08i-eti'fiW4 iiient: :That
promise was brAkei. e, Ale.(c6d ig iii 6 Elio; ',3
iiif
,180.4 Aliii,.l I Inink irefi might fairly and not unreasonably
have objected to. . But he endeavoured to establish a pure
despotism in the country ; and the history of the conse-
quences which ensued showed that no &vermeil can lrealt.
faith with his. people without discredit to himself; or withodt
Intetrering.with the Mitre tranquillity of his country: The
Mn. Gentleman has expressed himself in a manner alto-
gether unjustifiable with reference to a person who was lately
at the head of the Spanish Administration; MI MencliSabal:
Havinm been in political relations with that individual, I
?ht3dlethink 1 was not discharging my duty in this House if I
did not say that I believe that in all the transactions in which
that Minister has been engaged his thardeta ha's boeti solely
unsullied,' and that M hat known, and shown too at great
personal sacrifice, that he is devotedly attached to the wel-
fare and interests of his country. The Hon. Gentleman
has undertaken the defence of. Don earles's Durango de-
cree. • He has Mild that, however he condemned the limits
of the bloody character of that decree, that it was issued
in deference to the ancient laws of Biscay, and that Car-
los had no discretion when it. was forced upon him, ex-
cept giving his sanction to its execution. Now, when the
Hoe. Gentleman makes a defence of this decree upon
the ground of its being in accordance with the laws of
Biscay, let me ask him—where were the laws of Biscay,
and where was the absolute necessity to enforce these
laws) *heti lion Carlos consented to the Eliot conven-
tiOn, because he stated that it is not only death for any
man, not being a Spaniard, to put to death a soldier within
the province, but that it was death also *for any soldier not
belonging to the province to do so ? If, then, that law
, justified the decree of Durango, it ought to have con-
' eluded Don Carlos against consenting to the convention
with Lord Eliot, according to which convention Spanish
soldiers, not belonging to the province of Biscay, taken pri-
Boners within that province, were to be released. But I
say, that if there is such a law, that law is " more honoured
in its breach than in its observance." It is possible that
Don Carlos might drag forward some musty records, some
local, provincial laws, which in a barbarous state of society,
might justify acts which modern civilization ought to teach
every man to avoid and condemn. Therefore it is no jus-
tification of Don Carlos, even if it were true that in the
ancient records of the provice of Biscay any obsolete law
might be found which would bear such a construction as
has been attempted to be put upon the Durango decree.
The Hon, Member who spoke last had stated, that he gave
me another opportunity of correcting my recollection, if
it had happened to have deceived me, as to the fact of
the marines under Lord John Hay not being placed under
the command of the General of the Queen of Spain. I
think lam confirmed in the statement I made by what the
Hon. Gentleman himself has said ; for he has stated that
Major Owen was requested by the Quartermaster-General of
the Queen's troops to take a certain position, and that Major
Owen complied with that request ; that in the course of the
day another order was issued to the Major to take up
another position ; but that Major Owen, not considering
himself justified in placing himself in that position;declined
to comply with the request made to him. That was a dis-
tinct proof that Major Owen was not under the command
of General Evans, because, if he had been, it would not
have been a request on the one part and a declining to
comply with it on the other, but it would have been an
order by which, as a military man, it would have been his
duty to abide at whatever hazard. I state, therefore, the
fact, that whether the Hon. Member thinks the Marines
are properly or improperly employed, they arc employed
under the command of Lord John Hay, and are not
under the authority of the Queen. • The only thing that is
clear from what has passed this day, and on other occa-
sions, is that Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the
House have set their hearts on the success of Don Car-
los—( Hear)—and on the re-establishment of a despotic
Government in Spain. Whether it is by being told that
the decree of Durango is to be a little palliated ; whether
it is by misrepresentation that the British auxiliaries in
Spain are in a state of insubordination, mutiny, and star-
vation ; whether it is that we are told that the Carlists
are traversing the whole country with ease, 'meeting with
no impediment in the provinces ; whereas they have re-
turned without meeting the slightest encouragement
during their long march ; to whatever part of the
transactions in Spain Honourable Members opposite
apply their remarks, the whole drift of their observations
seem to be this, that the cause of the Queen of Spain is
hopeless, that Don Carlos must succeed, and that Spain is
destined not again to enjoy the advantages of consititutional
freedom.—(Hear.) When Gentlemen are so anxious to
repeat their opinions and their prophecies upon a subject,
we are at least entitled to think that their wishes do not
differ from their predictions.—(Hear, hear.) Now, I say,
my wishes are contrary to these.—(Hear, hear.) I do
most sincerely hope that the contest in Spain between con-
stitutional government on the one hand, and despotism on
the other, may end in the success of the former principle.
I do think that the wishes expressed by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, however they may suit those other views which
they may entertain, having a bearing upon domestic ques-
tions—(Hear)—rather than upon foreign policy, arc not
very congenial to the spirit of the Members of a British
Parliament ; and that it is not usual on the part of Eng-
lishmen that such an interest should be felt, and such a
lively anxiety should be expressed, in favour of a cause sul-
lied by such atrocities and crimes as have been recorded,
and the object of which cause is to extinguish the liberties
of a great nation.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. BORTH WICK,
Sir JOHN ELLEY said that he lamented that the
Noble Lord should have taken that latitude 'of language as
to attribute to Members on the Opposition side of the
House particular motives for their conduct. He denied
in lobo being actuated by any such motives. His opinion
was that Spain should settle her own quarrels ; but if she
could not do so, and other parties must interfere, then he
would say let them interfere in a manner that was likely
to be effectual. The Hon. and Gallant Member, after
describing the gallant achievement of General Evans in
assailing and taking the batteries of San Sebastian, asked
what consequences had resulted ? They had incurred the
sad misfortune of losing in killed and wounded 78 officers
and 800 men, and he could assure the House that the
ground occupied in consequence of that success was not
in extent sufficient to feed a rabbit. He wished to ask
the Noble Lord a question, founded upon information which
he believed to be accurate, although he had not received
a single letter from Spain since the Legion sailed. If he
understood the Noble Lord last night, he had stated that
neither General Evans nor his Legion were under any or-
ders from this country ? Now he had been informed that
the inhabitants of St. Sebastian had proclaimed the Consti-
tution of 1812, and that General Evans had informed them
that if they persisted in doing so, he would withdraw his
Legion. He wished to know whether he had acted for
himself, whether he had received any instructions from the
British Government, or whether any direct information had
been sent by him to this country. The Legion was now
completely stale-mated. They had no move, either to the
right or to the left, or to the front. What move, then, had
they upon the board ? To retire by the fleet that took
them there.
Lord PALMERSTON—The Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman had asked for information respecting certain com-
munications which he supposed to have passed between
General Evans and the inhabitants of St. Sebastian. He
was really unable to give the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
any information on the subject. General Evans was an
officer in the Spanish service, his communications were
made to his own Government, and he (Lord Palmerston)
was wholly unable to state their nature or effect.—(Hear.)
Mr. GROVE PRICE -replied.
The motion was negatived without a division ; and
Lord PALMERSTON subsequently agreed to furnish
extracts from the dispatches which had been referred to.
BOROUGH JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL.
On the motion that the House gO' into Committee on
this Bill,

Mr. L. CHARLTON referred to what had passed on
a former evening with respect to the first reading of this
Bill. He protested against the House going into Commit-
tee upon it, as it had only been read once, the supposed
first reading not having been of this Bill, but of a blank
sheet of paper. The Hon. Member submitted no motion,
and the House went into Committee on the Bill.
On clause 2 (we believe) being put,
Mr. CHARLTON said that, as it was his intention to
give every opposition in his power to this Bill, he meant to
propose, as an amendment to this clause, that the borough
of Ludlow be exempted from its operation.
After some conversation, and an understandingc, being
come to, that if the rights of the inhabitants of Ludlow
should be prejudiced by the operation of the measure, a
motion for inquir3 on the subject would be entertained in
the next Session, the Hon. Gentleman withdrew his
amendment.

That and the other clauses of the Bill were then agreed
to, and the House having resumed, the report was received.
On the question that the report be agreed to,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved the insertion of words in the
first clause, the purport of which were to exempt certain
parts of the county of the city of Coventry from the opera-
tion of the Bill.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL opposed the amend-
ment, and it was negatived without a division.
The Report was then agreed to, and the Bill read a
third time and passed.
The Borough Boundaries Bill, the Borough Fund Bill,