The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-11 00:00:00

• Ge°trill'
tio
It srasr
utio,
.ot?gbita
hrc
~•

•
ulittee upou a measure so revolut.• ,),, Oh, 110, theyonaty .
have more important matters to att,nd to.
Instead ut e
into the country.—(Hear, and laughter.)
,' •r country
stioying borough% they must go down to tneLian
They mustdgo.
seats to destroy pheasants and partridges.
who have
They have their tenants to attend to—to
some
eckward in
not paid up their rents, or who have been h
—( ghter.)
their tithes---and of whom some have signed petitions for
Reform or have voted for a Reform candidate.—(Hear,tie
and laughter.) All these weighty cares must occupy 1
" Most potent, grave, and Reverend Signiors,
r, Our very noble and approved good masters."
nothing
SO
---, (Cheers and laughter.) The Reform Bill is no_t. __y
important, because the people do not care for j 51
street,
Lords have been in Road-street, and St. Jamey's
who
aknedepPsa
alls-hruo4-11; and one of them knows an old woman
of
„ p thereabouts, and she knows the opinions_e
~,
Per or her own class, and she says that the peopld
not care about ReforM Much laughter.) Therefore,
it
if there he any manifestation• of feeling on the subjectuPS.--
is all artificial. It bag been raised by demigog _
_,
(Hears.) Revolut• I age has been used.—(llea!,_
hear Most disloyal inn language
Ina been addressed to putie
he mes,ctings.--(tleYar, hear.)ut The passions of tvheehpern
eoepnt
elalve: :jeen aPpeale I to, and not their reason.—
Hon( Members
ring from the Op •' I •hes ) - di
s_
position tent -
been those is-
1,
,n el ask them, therefore, where have
ll° al
-""tiugs? Who have addressed this revolutionary
In place,what
andanguage to the people ?—(Hear hear.)
11
W, h°4-1, during- 11 th agitation of the last election,the
Was alien lan a e
800, guage used ?—( Hear,
aspersions,
b and Noble Persons who throw out those
thaavt the People understand their own interehsatts.theTheywis_
do-2
tub' you that all they desired was, t
the King
•tt of thia H
and the wisdom of
aheuid
be House
country;
of the
that theyexercised for the benefit
British Consti-
tuti Were devotedly attached the
borough
'll ; but that the • oul a d lmit that the
noraioatie ey• nevir w
—(Cheers.)
It is true 4 Was a part of that Cons i.
etution.
people were
not that they also told you that if the. repre-
now allowed to have the choosing of their 0wn.,8 impos-
Ztatives, you would soon be convinced that. it is
The
Per, to Withhold from them longer their just rig
h'•ve ever
I eeele of this country are still as loyal as theyll
wealthy,ai
Masse' bra his
they are still as brave. They are. at
much
the
are . • But you will not
gt, ~ Y industrious.
nor wea t I h
fro
luerive protection from their bravery,
just
lu
t"eie i d • hold out against their
and re n Ustry, if you now
in the name of
expedien
asonableelahns.--(Hear.) Why, then, for Hon.
Gehtie eY---.which used to have some charms for
n 0
.......
(ends opposite--will you not satisfy themimn
eenwan-
ciparrq I retnember, Sir, that when Craotnetli
opposite
tid°!_vvas the question, a Right Hon.
B their poli-
tical feet gentlemen
gentlemen opposite to sacrificexow,
Sir, I
lvish te, ;riga on the altar of expediency. .
tioo is expe-
ditor, :_cninav, when Parliamentary emancipa
refusal
~
Why
Via 07" Y Will they exasperate the people by '
soon re-
lioriu,',Y attero
~ pt to retain that which they must
be ac-
es 414 ' %11l • •
which would now
of
-Pted a, y wait until that
as a
measure
jiatiee ,0 an aet of grace will be extorted
o,___m_
aloo
sell' long withheld ?--(Cheers.) In the namerera
01_
Eng-
rain land, if 'ei I will ask You, as I would ask the e I
a
eertai Your forms allowed me, do you and they prefermain-
:luat44l an and ignominious defeat, in the vain attempt to
secure.
, 4 unjust and totterinba• power, rather than toemnmo-
-
so and their posterity, by a peaceful ac
spirit
of
th ' -'. the privilege and power which the (rue
has been
„41?nstitution allows them. (Hear, hear.) It
for
his
taiti another place by a Noble Lord, whom I honour
attr.-
hat 'nls and bia serviceshis country, that he t
ales th, , . to
the people to
the r _ v aemand for Reform on the part of
~..
and
othe:vpolutionary movements in France and Bel
weats m
it that
telettlied :ifeetsseof,Euirop.e. But let inletsa?sk,Nwvilear
was it but
It tyleas't detertneivnatnitoinnilsifatuhdetuemople to resist oPPres'n'ioenof
the
,l'e:o obstinate perseverance in oppression
by
some
and bio efornents of Europe that has caused all the a..
the
last "dahed with which the Continent has dunlngwill,
therel.:,elaf been afflicted. (Hear, hear, hear.)
ber for
' Taro,
e' re' ask the Bight Hon. Baronet, the.Mem
(an _
iio
44:11 th, with all his Parliamentary experience—(and
for d
talerus entertains more respect than I entertainleis
to his
Y, in mores
gratitude for his great
to support
him as•':,lo sorsie of which I had the happinessill ask him,
doe, b ule advocate of religious liberty)—l w
' e thi°k th i_ : • distant when the anarchy
Which h at the time is far
t come upon
ourseiveaa overspread the Continent may no
ri _
us
d dis-
conte,tt?"--(11ar, hear.) And if it should n
our safety ?
If tint 0",,a::11 disunited, will he guarantee
the
measure
tint "Int and on those who rejected. t
must rest
the r_ ool.d have satisfied the whole nation
have
in.,.
Plo„ed‘sPan'll'ilitY(llear hear.) The people you
their
evYou to.
e i Pam that measure, and they
promised Peers, it is
true, ha-j'autog gratitude in return.'
But the
I
fora cone're'tPrea'ed themselves afraid that the gratitude_
) Un-
t„ "4ted PeoPle i revolution. (Hear, bear.
siitiehate ha, been
heir
rsersetivmate
of a
nation's gratitude,ive
4it „se._it,,(,)oght to be their highest happiness toB
ruetuethey
rejered"!? be their highest honour to deserve.
amised
gratitudet!'e nation's prayer, and holding its p
•r tment.
`••••(ch,„_rt scorn, they added insult to the disappom
As to. the
tiltiloar`' ss and cries of " 0 der order.")
Tlae , "ecess of Reform, "Order,
have' no apprehensions.
kPirit
which per-
%el ii of Reform and improvement
der,
arui
tt theft times is too stron for you to keep un
too,
ation:l° , and
for you tog extinguish, and
tr batiqn, its progress, to be checked by
sneersthe
e for
llorougbh 1.1 the sophisrns of the Hon.
Member
lace in
Which 0 I'dge; and unless England be the only Pt'
lie voic e
to be
ard,
41.1
.. e oi the people and of reason is not
fee
People r., e"ectual Reform i the representation ot l
Went ""oot lon h 11
Gentleman then
o, bri ti, g e delayed. The Hon.
Govern-
••ent offe; Say that as to the idea of the present
~
tuit p "ng thei • • •
r totally
of the r resignation, it was a mater
to re-
'online 'lttestion. W any man insane enough , ,
kini " that, at as
a patriotic
an . MIT Blinul., . a mornent like the present,
affairs Did
tie reamuahieu abandon the helm of pub ic
ut advisers of
erie,,„fown w„..".1,
,ar., imagine that. the pre7?
No ; the
enn'os.ees of fre'eLlumbeitllriayha confiding
rpeedoptlhat a
different
unt'led'vtul'id he PtirsueS tanrde'tltiaatsnst:i means would be left
bentatioil", secure to the
and free re The
people a full, fair,
Inlblie 0„.1.4,..,*ie Conmaons House of Parliament.
inept andh", rest ,I..sureti that the friends of the Govern-
ssi.s,; or foeiti the People felt that this was no time
.to he
d.
.4rB of tl '
,nr,,' and he was sure that the responsible
rase-
terance
nai,e.rown would, , y
0 their firmness and pe
o_
„„e Count, the good cause secure the eternal gratitude I
--slipo t -.Y• For ti- '
solved to
oece rt the
thus
oese reasons, then, he was rteheng
ht it
DI t'''4lY th ton of his Noble Friend, for he ,
he ~ us gratify
desires
Air. people,
the reasonable wishes and geievou '451 ho d
• to the
Id not fall in
dehher,', error of I?:
_the House would
of faction for the
:r. gtely
express
dtoaklng the clamour
le
coraim J J,.., pillion of t e.pe p .
•v his most
Lord. and hen'' tONE was resolved ta gi e
rty
Noble
r, , Support to the motion of the
that th 'Pllty
convinced
ere traated the people would feel
that
4teverntrientwd not the slightest reason to apprehend
that
let lips ,• °"ld in the 1. I degree swerve from
L, , le tv.iie,. , . sig Rest
they would
b 4oflueoeed " their duty Pointed out; that
resigning
bS' 4 %bad "o.the queation of resigning o; not
. but the,. ' erations of
nothing punctilious;
ceremon by
in the,: would stand by a illonalYela s,,ho reposed confidence
'etVedl ,and net desert
were de-
Io_, e Y eSteetned. a people by whom theyf England
°l°ekod t°
that Ho The
faet
was'
the
peopleo
and
oistr 41:4 by the "se arid to the King's Government,a(,ra...
ation ~, Government he baeaat the present I i
of au_ , for the
hear
kople would neither recognise nor _
peepiey other Govern
state of the
den), and the
Coo,
jiti Ment. The resent .
esuch
a
1 sto
conaio" froni the no: 0.1 public Opinion
pwLarnd
anxious
the d !rttinn, for it luste t 8
most atteutii e
whole of
44,„ toates, bO.,
~ affirmed throughout the
- People "' 'fa that House and in anotl er place,
that
,ully a
of England tver ham, but
'lles, approved cif their e not only
Government.
ialk • tams td present form of n
4 • rt argument that that form of Govern.
They with all its defects ,
well.
f ' 'lolk b arid anomalies, worked .
or
ti : egan to feel, licth :-.9, sub•ects and as men, that
asse,:et;ll.'t worked extremely ill. it patrons might rest
~•Nsio beet ryas a Oar; of Government which co.:lsf never
0u0„,,b ."ecessfully recommended to men who had been
at '.'s. its agene , .
the
L01_11,1341_1, Lir, Y recommend
so ill. The Crown and
° h.ly, ti acted nobly by the people. They had acted
4t 0 Yet sacel••
.„, nee a" I ...• firmly, yet wisely--in stepping forward
port the . occupying a powition which joined in their sup-
111r, cwh°le nation.
t 1,15 Prewe,,4°kEß said if the result of such a discussion as
gladly learn endangered the fate of the country, be should
It'"east,"lr3 •
Y it was brought forward at that critical
t/!l:ieh
~_,
ocit unfortunately happpned that anythinogf.
laoeour4yo,ttiz.iur !ri :hat House endang•aed
.it_h,e Perace
(Ist introdue_ ,
,t,ttc e. pers?ns were answerable. to thatwe;e
~, gerou,,
_Ju toe. discussion. If the question... _
as perfecti.y.was it If
that day ? He certainly
et"wri w )'• willing to adnait that the Ministers of the
het
ere not in any degree responsible fur the present
the rtiO4 but, souls what might whether responsible for
pea_
of or not, they were at°
,least responsible for the
tberr
81 the country---for tae
th were responsible to
then, , °vereign and the nation, ley we
t circumstances,
the
9! professed 1
_.. . n presen
.ie uttlity of th
hend
Irrnselt utterly unable to compe
thy i Sectionu,ti epresent motion ; he could not conceive.
Viti •
for additional ingredients being
into a
cheer,)„...2 for
already boiling over—(Loud
W„,r,4
hadilcl be ;caldronrememberd that the motion was so
What u,_at nothing could be discovered in it beyond
he eoofe: 'leen agreed to in various votes of that House;
"ed, theD, that he wria at a lose to see how such a

motion would tranquillize the public mind. It had been
contended that the whole people of England had most un-
equivocally declared themselves for Reform. So far as he
could observe, or his means of observation went, he would
venture to say that nothing could be more equivoc d than
was the expression of public sentiment upon that subject.
He did most firmly believe—and he thought he might so
far deviate from the course he had prescribed to himself__
he did firmly believe that the Hon. Member for Preston
correctly stated the influence of the Reform Bill upon the
public mind, when he said that none were for it excepting
those to whom it gave a vote. The Noble Lord, in a
speech of great apparent moderation, stated that he had
seen the Bill sent to the other House with a majority o:
109—a majority which those comprising it considered to
have been so triumphant that nothing could shake it—
that nothing could prevent the Bill being almost imme-
diately passed into a law. Now, however, the Noble
Lord got nothin by his motion, owing, in some degree
to the way in which it was worded. It must be ob-
vious to the House that no man of honour, that no
man of sense or right feeling, who had opposed the Bile
could concur in the present motion. It did, he must be
allowed to say, appear to him very clear that the best
and most advantageous mode of obtaining the object
which the Noble Lord had in view would have beet,
not to have brought the present motion, but to have sug-
gested to the Noble Lord on the Treasury Bench to have
risen in his place, and have made such a statement as
might appear best calculated to satisfy the House and the
country. The Noble Lord might have referred to the his-
tory of the Bill—he might, it such were the fact, have
announced his intention and that of his colleagues to per-
severe in urging forward the Bill to its completion ; but
to have made that declaration would have effected all that
the mover of the present motion could have reasonably
desired, and so have avoided all the excited feeling and all
the angry discussion, which in truth was unavoidable,
when topics of that nature were brought forward in times
like the present. He was as anxious as any Hon. Mem-
ber could be to avoid anything like anger in the course of
the discussion in which they were engaged ; but really, in
the present state of the country and of the House, it was
very difficult to prevent an appearance of heat and irrita-
tion. The question before them was one of grave and
serious importance, which, on the one hand, should
not be treated with levity, neither, on the other, should
it be discussed with anything approaching to personal
animosity. If the motion then be dangerous—he did
not mean to say that the Noble Member for Devonshire
intended to bring about dangerous consequences—but if,
as he was prepared to contend, the motion of the Noble
Lord had a dangerous tendency, what should he say to
the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Caine?
He told the House that the present was a mo-
ment of danger ; and what was the mode which he
adopted for the purpose of protecting the country from
the effects of that danger ? Were his allusions to the laws
likely is render them more venerable or better obeyed ?
Quite the contrary—he made no allusion to the laws, but
when it was one of depreciation, lie seemed utterly to
disregard that sound doctrine of Montesquieu, that those
who brought multitudes together were guilty of the hazard
of creating a riot; for the mere assemblage of multitudes
was itself an evil. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Caine, putting on a legal character, took advantage of it
to use every term the most reviling and degrading that
could be applied to British law, and thus did he labour to
bring into contempt the whole system of our jurispru-
dence, proceeding to contend that laws possessed no force
unless supported by public opinion. Shakspeare, who
foresaw every thing, and whose knowledge of human na-
ture was so profound and various, says, " A plague of
opinion ! a mail may wear it on both sides, like a leather
jerkin." So convenient was public opinion, that he had
no doubt the Hon. and Learned Member would justify
the breaking open of shops and the seizing of arms as ma-
nifestations of public opinion. He had heard the Hon.
Member say that he knew but two modes of sustaining the
laws—namely, public opinion and the sword ; but he
(Mr. C.) had always thought that the use of laws was
to supersede the sword; that nothing could be more
sound than the legal maxim-6‘ inter acme silent !eyes."
He admitted that public opinion might have much to
do with the making of laws, but nothing whatever
with the execution. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman had then goue on to tell the House how Asso-
ciations and Unions might be formed so as to defeat the
law ; and by way of illustrating his subject, had entered
into an account of the Irish Catholic Association. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman's talents and powers of
oratory, no man could gainsay ; but when he (Mr.
Croker) considered the doctrines that were inculcated in
it, he could cell it nothing more than splendid mischief.—
(Chem.) Ile could assure the House that he felt as
much as any man the dangers of insurrection ; he like-
wise believed in the tranquillity of the country, and that
the people were peaceable, and disposed to submit to the
law, without the intervention of the sword, or any new
laws emanating from the Government, but still he could
not disguise from himself that an unlucky spark might set
the popular feeling in a blaze. If so unfortunate an occur •
rence should take place, lie at least would not have to re.
proach himself with having said one word calculated to
produce that disastrous effect ; neither would his Hon.
Friends—(Hear, hear)--for the debate had been brought
on much against their inclination; and not only the de-
bate, but likewise the division had been forced upon them.
--(Cheers.) For his own part he would willingly make
any sacrifice to save the country from the slightest riot, be-
cause he knew that the smallest tendency that way might
give rise to the moat serious consequences—(Hear)—and
he trusted that nothing would escape from them calculated
to make the measure more difficult than it already was, or
to endanger the tranquillity of the country for which the
Government was in the first degree responsible.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SANDFORD felt himself bound to support the
motion before the House; and he was sure that neither he
nor those that concurred with him, would shrink from
sharing with the Noble Lord (Ebrington) in the dancer
upon which the Right Hon. Gentlemen who had just sat
down had dealt so largely.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman has
complained that we have forced a division upon him and
his friends. Why, Sir, that is our very intention—
( Cheers)—our object (and most wisely so) is to force them
to a division.—(Cheers.) Sir, we want to show the
Right Hon. Gentleinan that this House bad been packed
by the unanimous voice of the people, and in order to do
that we must have forced divisions till the measure is
carried. Why does the Right Hon. Gentleman complain ?
It is his own friends-=it is the decision of the House of
Lords that has forced this division to-night ; and that
decision being weak and foolish (I will not call it wicked),
it is the business of the strength and wisdom of the
House of Commons to show that the rights of the people
cannot be long forestalled, and that there is such a
teajority in this House as can support those Ministers
who are alone able to produce that Reform which the
people require.—(Cheers.) A little while ago it was
" No Reform !" but now it is impossible to find one to
utter such a cry; and could he be found, lie would be
pointed at as a monster or a raree show, as he passed
through the streets : the only question, therefore, now is,
the quantity of Reform ; but the question of quantity is
everything. And a corollary to that question is—are we
to have no confidence in the Ministers ?—(Hear, hear.)
In answer to which, I think that we want nothing else to
prove it, but the fact that they brought in this Bill—
(Hear, hear)—nay, not only brought it in, but actually,
carried it through this House, after a most teasing pro-
gress, and a most vexatious opposition.—(Cheers.) Ido
not knots, what there has been said on the other side to
make us transfer our confidence from the present Ministry
to the Ex-Ministry. I must confess that I lost by my ab-
sence time lion. and Learned Member's (Sir C. Wetherell's)
speech ; but I hardly know whether I ought to regret it
—(Laughter)—more especially as 1 had the pleasure of '
hearing him speak seventy-five times on the Bill itself—
(Laughter and cheers)—unless, indeed, he found some new
terms and phrases—(A laugh)—new, I mean, even for
him ; for, to my poor apprehension, he had exhausted all
cernawn vocabularies long ago.—(Laughter and cheers.)
eta tihough ; heard not that Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
speech, i beam the sppech of another Hon. Gentleman
—(11• r Fang)—and perhaps she douse will think that I
am showing my sensea in saying that I am quite satisfied
with that specimen. The Hon: Gentleman could not be
content without showing his ialeforical learning. Anti
whet is it that he has told the House?—Thet Charles the
First? and Louis the Sixteenth, lost their heads through
concession, and that George the 'failed had carried every
thing by holding? Indeed ! Your Toiehes were alwaysways
digiously learned ; but he thought all their erudition
they could hardly maintain the position of the lion. Gen-
tleman.—( Hear, 'near.) Did not every body know that
the real fact was, that neither ioharlee nor Louis had
yielded in time_(Loud cries of hear, hear)—and that
so far from George the Third carrying every thing, silt.
truth wee, that with the American colonies—the only
case in which the ouestion between concession and hold.
ing out really arose—he lost every thing by adopting the
latter course, instead of the former.—(Chet
former.—(Cheers.) But
supposing the Hon. Gentleman lead been right in his his-
torical deductions, they did not apply in the present case,
for the question now was not between the King and
the people, but solely with a sordid oligarchy standing
between the Throne and the people, usurping the rights
of the one and the privileges of the other.—(Loud cheer-
ing.) Sir. we look at the other House, and we see

twenty-seven harouglimongering Peers clutching:the rights
of the people within their greedy and unholy grasp._ we
see them turning a deaf car to the just demands of
the nation for the sakc of continuing their system of spo-
liation and robbery—we see this ; and now who shall tell
me that the time is not come for the people of England, of
Scotland, and of Ireland to speak their minds, and to cry
aloud in all men's hearing for the restitution of that of
which they have too long been deprived ?—(Much cheer-
ing.) I grant that it is too much to ask the Tories to
read history. They look upon it as an imposition when
their time is so much more profitably emploved.—(A
laugh.) But, surely, it is a little extraordinary that-they
will not understand their own history. Let them look
hack for only a few years, and what will they sue ? They
will see that this House three times passed the Catholic
Emancipation Bill, and that three times it was rejected
by the Lords.—(Hear, hear.) But did they after all suc-
ceed ?....-(Loud cheers.) Did they put down the people of
Ireland? Did they put an end to the just demands of
that nation 9 No ; they gave Ireland years of strife—
they gave birth to the Catholic Association—and it ended,
how? 3y the very House of Lords yielding to the pres.
sure of justice and of public opinion.—(Hear, hear.)
Do the Tories want the same story over again ? or do
they think that the people of England are not as firm as
the people of Ireland ? Do they think that the people of
Semland will submit ? Or the people of Ireland ? I
tell the Tories, in the name of the people of Ireland,
that they are just as determined as the people of Scotland,
and the people of Scotland just as determined as the people
of England.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, it has been said that
this decision of the House of Lords will give another Ad-
ministration to the country. Sir, I should like to see
them marching into this House.—(A loud laugh.) I
should like to know what would be their first motion.—

(Still more laughter.) Would it he a bit by bit Reform.
—(Cheers and laughter.) I cannot bring myself, had as
they are, to believe that they would sacrifice their prin-
ciples once more, and turn round to a real measure of Re-

form. But let us even suppose that they succeeded in
obtaining a majority in this House, what would the people
of England say ? Had not the people already said that
that Administration should not continue ?--(Hear.) They
themselves had proclaimed that they were scarcely safe—
that they could not go into the city with their lives un-
guarded.—( Cheers, and " oh ! oh !") What ! Did Gentle-
men forget the wicked and audacious attempts that it
was said would be made in the city on the Prime Mi-
nister between his declaration against Reform and his
most wise and praiseworthy resignation ? And would
that renewed Ministry meet with more favour in Ire-
land, when they should return to that country with bad
feelings in their hearts towards it for the execration that

had been justly heaped upon them, and when they
would grasp with delight at the vengeance that was
placed within their reach in retort for the honest ex-
pression of indignation which their cold-blooded, unfeeling
conduct towards that country had produced ? No, Sir;
when the orange flag will be unfurled in Ireland, and the
black flag in Scotland, and the manufacturing districts
will be shaking with rage—he is a bold man, and, I
think, a bad man, who can contemplate such conse-
quences as these, and not make every effort in his power
to prevent them, by securing the remaining chance, which
is—the making this House the organ of the public sen-
timent.—(Loud cheers.) But it has been said what is
the good of this motion ? I will tell them the good ! It is
to prevent the pnhlic desponding—it is to make hope take
the place of despair—(Loud cheers)—it is to throw oil
over the stormy waves of contention ; that, Sir, is the
object—(fiear, hear)—and that object will be attained, if
this House speak emphatically, and if the Ministers follow
up that speaking with equal emphasis.—(Cheers.) The
people have sent us here—the people are gazing on us
here—and we cannot, we must not shrink from our posts.
—(Cheers.) I must say that I think that the Right
lion. Gentleman's (Mr. Croker's) powers failed him
when he attacked the powerful speech of my Hon. and
Learned Friend (Mr. Macaulay.)—(Cheers.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had better have let it alone, for
he has not said one word—and it was out of his power
to say one word—to lessen the splendid effect of that ad-
dress ; splendid, whether as regards the beauty of its lana.
guage or the soundness of its arguments. The Right Hon.
Gentleman has tried to make something in the shape of a
reply to what my Hon. and Learned Friend said on the
subject of public opinion ; but instead of taking the broad
basis on which my Hon. and Learned Friend rested his
argument, he confined his answer to some particular por-
tion of public opinion, and so contrived ingeniously to
change the whole complexion of the case ; in this manner
the Right Hon. Gentleman cited the instance of machine-
breaking. Why, lie must very well know that the feeling
in favour of machine-breaking is confined to a very small
portion of the public ; while the argument of my Hon.
and Learned Friend applied to unanimous public opinion.
(Hear, hear.) Another topic that has been dwelt upon
is, that there has been a reaction in the public feeling.
Now I know that there are radicals who try to trade in this
way.—(Hear, from Mr. Hunt, followed by immense laugh-
ter from all sides of the House.) I beg pardon of the Hon.
Member for Preston ; but I was alluding to the speech
of the Right Hon. Gentleman who has quoted him in his
absence, and who, indeed, seems to rely not a little on his
opinion with respect to the people of England.—(A laugh,
and continued cheers.) How has the Member for Pres-
ton been acting ? Has he been to the meeting at Alaryle-
bone to-day of 40,000 persons ?—(Hear, hear, from Mr.
Bunt.) But why do I waste my time in speculating on
what he may have been doing?—(Another loud hear,
hear, from Mr. Hunt, with cheers from the rest of the
House.) I will say nothing more of him, only congratu-
lating both parties on the holy alliance they have formed.
—(Great cheering.) I find some consolation in the re-
jection of this Bill, because I know, that if it is postponed
much longer, the people will not he content with so mode-
rate a measure; but will raise their voices—if not for uni-
versal suffrage—at least for that salutary measure, the vote
by ballot. But this may not be all. They may begin to ask
themselves why voting by proxy should be allowed ? Why
there should be hereditary legislation, leaving the idiot or
the madman to succeed to the legislative rank of his
father ? Yes, Sir, those who lately had every respect for
the House of Lords, as they now have for the Sovereign
and the House of Commons—those whose cry has been
" the Constitution, the whole Constitution, and nothing
but the Constitution," will speedily be forced from their
former feeling, and be compelled to turn with distrust
from those that make use of legislation for the purposes of
oppression—(Hear, hear)—and who are they that have
raised these topics in the minds of the people.—(Cheers
from the :Ministerial side, answered by vehement cheering
from the Opposition.) Who ate they that have prevented
the people being at peace, and now who is to answer for
the events of the next fortnight— of the next month ?
(Hear, hear.) Oh, Sir, it was an unwise vote ; and that
portion of sanctity which belongs to it I rejoice does not
at least cling to my heart. But the deed is done, the vote
is passed ; and what are we to do for the people ? We
trust rally round the administration ; we must call on
them to exert their energies in behalf of the nation.—
I (Loud and continued cheers.) Let them remember Mr.
Pitt—in the first five years of his administration he had
created one hundred Peers ; and who shall blame the pre-
sent Ministry for doing as much, when it is expected at
their hands by the country?—(Cheers.) If there is a
majority of 41 against the Bill, why not send 82 to the
House of Lords, and so have 41 the other way—(Cheers)
—and then the Peerage will he safe.—(A laugh from
the Opposition.) What ! is it so good a thing that the
Tories will not share it with any other?—(Cheers.) I
am not surprised at it, as long as they can contrive to
keep the property of the boroughs within their clutch.
Why, I am told that only the other day 80,000. were
given for Qatton. Sir, I will not longer trespass on the
House but to say, that I shall give this motion my mo=t
zealous support, because I think that this House is hound
to stand by the Ministers--(Loud cheering)—and because
I hope that the decision of the Hottse will be received as
that of men determined to do justice to the country,
and demanding the speedy settlement of the question, as
the best means of tranquilizing the feelings of the nation.
On the Hon. and Learned Member taking his seat,
Sir R. PEEL and Colonel EVANS rose together, and
the House called loudly for the former; hut the latter
having caught the Speaker's eye, he went on, but amidst
so much confusion, that it was scarcely possible to under-
stand what he said. We believe it was as follows:
Colonel EVANS—No Government could exist in this
country if the measure failed; and if any Government
should exist which attempted to govern by the sword, be
would be one of the nest to draw the sword to resist it.--
(Cheers--order, order, and confusion.)

Sir C. WETHERELL rose, but was met by loud cries
of " spoke." He rose, he said, to order. The Gallant
Colonel had fallen into a new end unparliamentary mode
of expression, and he moved that the words he had just
uttered should he taken down.—(Cheers from all sides,
and calls of " Chair," and " Order.")
After a short time, the SPEAKER called on Colonel
Evans to explan.
Colonel EVANS was not surprised that the Hon. and
Learned Member, who had on so many occasions distin-
guished himself by the extraordinary terms he used, should
find fault with his plain language.—(Order, Chair, and
explain.) What he said was this: That if a Govern-
ment of the sword should be established, under the present
circumstance, he, for one, should be ready to raise a eword
to resist.—( Hear, hear, and cheers )

St. ROBERT PEEL could but regret that the Hon.
and Gallant Mcmber should think it necessary to put a
hypothetical case of establishing a Government of the
sword.—(Hear, bear.) Such hypothetical assumptions of
Governments established of the sword was like the pour-
ing of oil, of which the Learned Member had just pp iken—
Cheers)--it was pouring the oil of the sword on the stormy
waves of our present discontent—(Cheers)—when lion.
Members said that they wished that the angry passions
might be soothed, and that the excited feelings of the
people might be calmed. He had meant to take no other
part in this discussion than was necessary to vindicate his
own consistency in the vote he should give, and he should
not have departed from that determination had not the
speeches lately made formed such a signal contrast to the
speech of the Noble Lord who opened the debate and the
lion. Member who seconded the motion. The Noble Lord
meant by proposing his resolution to pledge the majm ity who
had passed the Bill to adhere to its principles. The Noble
Lord naturally expected that the Members who voted in
that majority would vote for his resolution ; and naturally
perceived that those who voted against the Bill, were
precluded by that from acceding to his resolution. When
the Learned Gentleman who had just spoken, said nothing
had been uttered on the principle of the resolution--did
he expect—did the House expect, after the long discussion
of what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman called disgusting
and weary details of the Bill—did the Hon. and Learned
Member expect that on that occasion they were to renew
the whole debate on the question of Parliamentary Re-
form ? Those who would now vote for the resolution had
already proved their approbation of the principle of Re-
form ; and he must consider it quite unnecessary
that those should again agitate the subject who had
expressed their opinions by voting against the second
reading of the Bill. The object should rather be to place
the subject at rest ; and he did not think the agitation was
likely to be calmed by again renewing the discussion. It
would he more meet, under the present circumstances, to
use the language of wise moderation. The great majority
of the House had no occasion to prove, by the present
lotion, their attachment to Reform; and they would best
support the Constitution, and best secure their own view
of being very moderate, and calming the excited feelings of
the people on this important subject by voting against the
motion. Nothing certainly which had happened should
make him not adhere to that moderation he recommended.
He could not forget that the last time he had addressed
the House, he had expressed his satisfaction that no personal
differences had taken place during the debate, and the Noble
Lord (Althorp's) reply had expressed a hope that all ani-
mosity would be buried. Ile knew not what necessity
there was now to revive animosity.—(Hear, hear.) It
was not justified by the occasion on either side, either in
defending the Administration or in assigning the reasons
in detail for withholding confidence from the Government.
In stating some of the grounds for withholding that con-
fidence, he should avoid all acrimonious discussion. If
the majority thought it advisable to agree to a resolution
to support the Bill, in order to place it upon the records
of the House, that was not the time for him to enter
into verbal criticism of the resolution, for which he
certainly did not mean to vote. lie, however. doubted,
under all the circumstances, if it were wise in the
Noble Lord to call on the majority to agree to such
a resolution. He thought the divisions on the Reform
Bill a sufficient proof of the determination of the House to
support the Bill, without entering into any such resolu-
tion. That resolution called upon the House to affirm
t o propositions, not necessarily connected. They were
called upon to declare in favour of the Reform Bill, and to
declare, at the same time, that his Majesty's Government
was deserving of their confidence. lie thought it unwise
to call on the House to assent to the two propositions in
one resolution, and it would be more complimentary to his
Majesty's Government, as well as more customary, to give
expression to the confidence of the House in a distinct re-
solution. Allow him to say to the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, that he bad heard his speech with great pleasure, and
was only prevented from giving it greater praise by the
compliment the Hon Meml er had thought proper to pay
to him ; but that speech was distinguished by a tone of
moderation which the majority would do well to adopt.
The lion. Gentleman thou it would be most unfortu-
nate if his Majesty had nT7ther alternative to pass the
Bill but to create a number of Peers. He said that every
other measure ought to he adopted in preference to that,
and that such an alternative would be only had recourse
to if all other means' failed ; he was anxious that the
House should not despair, and thought that there was yet
time to avoid the difficulty by meeting the Peers half way.
—(Hear, hear.) But if he entertained any hope of that,
was his course wise? Why, the resolution he proposed
cut off all hope for ever of moving one step toward
reconciliation. The Honourable Gentleman had a strange
policy, for while he recommends the House to go half-
way, he recommends it steadily to adhere to the Bill.—
(Cheers.) lie hoped to meet the other House half-way,
and he counselled the House of Commons not to move
one step.—(Cheers.) The tone of the Hon. Gentleman's
speech was that of moderation, but he supported a resolu-
tion which cut off all hopes of a compromise.—(No, no.)
Was it not evi 'ent that there was a contradiction between
the Hon. Gentleman's speech and the resolution he sup-
ported ? Hun. Members must see that the resolution was
a compulsory proposition. Another Hon. Gentleman had
said that the provisions of the Bill might have been modi-
fied, had it not been for the obstinacy of the Opposition.--
ea o whichtl,
the
(Hear.) The Government certainly could not accept that
defence. According to that, it was the troublesome Op-
position n
but tnathed tHhoeusßeillwasfromealbleeidngonmatode
eopmere-
fe
to implied that it had been improved by their obsti-
nacy. It was urged, as one ground for the resolu-
tion,pvoretem
that the Bill had been matured by discussions
the most anxious and laborious. And the fault he
had to find with the resolution was, that it implied that
this Bill was necessary to be adhered to when an equally
efficient measure might be introduced, which this re-
solution would preclude them from accepting. Why
pledge the House to the Bill as it stood, and why exclude
themselves from accepting another measure equivalent to
that ? The resolution pledged the House to all the pro-
vis ons of the Bill—it pledged the House to the 10/,
clause. One of the many provisions, which was much
insisted upon, and which was much injected to, was the
uniform right of voting given to the 10/. householders.
Now he had heard it stated, he could not say where, or by
whom, but he had heard it stated by a person o f bight
consideration, that the arguments on the uniform right
of voting had gone far to shake his mind, and lie should
be prepared to listen to extensive modifications. That
was au important part of the Bill, and most important if
not restricted. The framers of the Bill had invested
the right of voting, and perhaps some plan might be
and restrict it to a higher rent in the
aacicoe%sptearbrleattes,hich would give that right to small towns at
larger towns. That right might be modified ; but if
the House agreed to the resolution, they would pledge
themselves against any modification of the provisions
of the Bill. They might pledge themselves, if they
pleased, to adhere to the principle of the Bill, but by
pledging themselves to adhere to the provisions, they
would prevent all improvement. On these grounds lie
objected to the resolution. He doubted the policy of the
majority who had supported the Bill pledging itself and
the House to adopt the Bill. He had heard the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman complain of the weariness of dis-
cussions, while the resolution said that the Bill had been
[natured by discussions the most anxious and laborious.
The Noble Lord's resolution vindicated that pertinacious
opposition, and on these grounds called on the House,
The resolution embraced two suljecta—athst of Iteform,
and confidence in the Government. The House was
called upon to express its confidence in the integrity of
the Ministers, their perseverance, and their ability in in-
troducing the Reform Bill, and in conducting it through
the House. lie did not wish by any means to lower the
character, and weaken the power of the exenutive Govern-
ment ; and in enpressieg a difference of opinion from the
resolution, he begged to be understood as not implying any
doubt of the personal integrity or perseverance of the
Mi-
out
te
doubtingess p res santsil
edi,riubpterosfotililaelir
integrity,ih
idebates;stei ; nbeui
tt h
Nerr ttlhi tol
their perseverance, or their skill in debate, be night still be
far from placing confidence is thorn as a Government. He
could trot, for example, ext, nd his approbation to the manner
in which they had introduced the Reform Bill, nor the time
of introdueing it, both of which were, in his opinion, in-
consistent with the interest of the conntny. The resolu-
tion praised their ce.a:luct on these points, and against
that part of it he could give a conscientious vote. There
were several other parts of their conduct which ho did not
approve of. Their repeal of the Coal Duties had his ap-
probation ; but their foroign policy, which he would not
enter ',at°, was anything but favourable to the country ;
but without stating all his objections to their policy, it
was sufficient for him to say that the Government was not
entitled to his confidence on account of the manner in
which they had introduced and supported the Reform Bill.
The lion. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) said,
that refusing to acknowledge the principles of this Bill
to a create: dornz,stic danger than this
n
before been exposed to. The Hon.
wouldout country
expose
had
e u
ye sr
and Learned Gentleman bad referred to this state of do-
mestic danger, and to the public opinion on the subject, 1
reason why the Home should place confidence
in his Majesty's Government, as a means of continuing
and repressing this agitation.—(Hear.) But when he
I ei,ked at event to which the Bill went, the time it

was introduced, and the means by which its temporary
success was entured—(Hcar, hear)—he was doubtful how
much of the damage had been caused by the Government
itself. He lamented some of the expressions, and the tone
ob-
isffitactueltif.B:ltizoieLtriceadseantigmert.danlVehry?
adopted by the Honei.imigaannd Lseeeakr,n el:1y Gietna entng a
snt,raanngdehie
eii at):i
eoa nniisd
ooernxi
..tfzGhgie.e presentnratlt
d
Why did he seek to augment dangerous passions on danger-
ous topics.—(Cheers.) He must say, tliat the eloquence
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman not unfrequently got
the better of his judgment ; and now and then, when there
arras some semblance of argument in his declamation, whet)
it was examined, it was found to niak-e rather against than
for his side of the 'notion. Then the Hon. Gentleman ha
stated that the House cf Commons was generally, in relatio❑
to the House of Lords, in the right, and the Bills it
had sent up to the Lords, though at first refused,
were afterwards assented to; but if the House 01 Commons
had this general means of persuading or compelling
the House of Lords to adopt its views, what be-

came of that part of the Hon. Member's argument
which went to state, that the House of Commons was
dependent on the House of Lords ? Did not that prove
that the two Houses were independent, co-ordinate
powers, and that the opinion of the House of Commons
generally prevailed ?—(Hear.) He was sorry that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in talking of danger, had
again introduced menaces into his speech—(Hear, hear)__
that he thought it right to menace the House of Lords.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman's whole argument
turned upon the principle of intolerance--I am right,
and you are wrong. That was the whole of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's assumption.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He thought, however, that he was supported by pity.
sical power, and then he said, " You must give way."
(Cheers.) Could he not think that lie was addressing
high and honourable men, who were capable of being in-
fluenced by reason and argument; and would it not have
been more wise to expect to influence the decision of the
other House by reasoning than by threats—that if they
did not pass the Bill they should be proscribed and exiled
like the nobility of France?—(Cheers.) The Hon. anti
Learned Gentleman says, that it is important to
produce tranquillity ; and therefore he voted for the
resolution of the Noble Lord ; but, if he wished for
tranquillity, would he call upon the House to enter into a
pledge which excited hopes, perhaps encouraged discon-
tent, and kept alive agitation ? The Hon. Member in-
dulged in prophecies ; and he never heard prophecies
more likely to realise themselves, than those of the Hon.
and Learned Member. Instead of calling on the people
to demand the Bill, why not enjoin them to rest satisfied
and contented? Why encourage discontent and dissatis-
faction ? Why tell the people how they might resist the
lave—(Cheers)—as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman did?
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) had
alluded to the state of the metropolis, when an infamous
attack had been made upon the lite of the Prime Minister,
and that Prime Minister the Duke of Wellington ;
an act of the basest ingratitude and the greatest wick-
edness. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had al-
luded to the intended attack on the Duke of Wel-
lington.—(Mr. Mac tulay intimated that he had not
alluded to any such thing.)—No, it was the Hon. Member
for Kerry he was alluding to; but when that lion. Mem-
ber had spoken of the base attack to be made on the life of
' the Duke of Wellington, not indeed by the middle classes,
but by the lowest classes, the Hon. and Learned Member
tor Caine had explained how they might avoid the penal-
ties of the law, and avoid paying the taxes.—(Hear.)
Was not that exciting the passions of the people ?
(Hear, hear.) The Hun. and Learned Gentleman de-
plored the excesses of the people and their readiness to
resist the law, and said it was hardly necessary to make a
speech directing them how to show their hostility. He
would also say a few words to the other Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Sheil), who had imitated the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, but had fallen below him. He would
not follow the Hun. and Learned Gentleman, being warned
by his example that the ambition to make a great attempt
does not insure success.—(Cheers.) The sentences of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman bore the marks of much
labour, and were a credit to his industry. He had given
the House several old stories, and among others that of
the Sybil, and on her he thought the House had alriaily
drawn often enough during these debates; and he
hoped the ru'es of the House concerning females would
in future be extended to her, and she would not be
suffered again to be present at the debates.—(A laugh.)
There was another female mentioned by Burke of whom
the Hon. and Learned Member reminded him. Mr. Burke
said that some persons who imitated the contortions of the
Pythian Goddess thought they had caught her inspiration.
—(Cheers and laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman thought the whole essence of Toryism might be
condensed into one short word, and that short word was
East Retford.—(A laugh.) He wished his Hon. Friend,
the Member for Hertford, were present, for be could tell
the Hon. and Learned Member that he proposed extending
the franchise of East Retford to Bassetlaw, and it was ra-
ther singular that the Hun. and Learned Member should
have selected the act of a good old Whig to designate the
hoped
which h
eex hadste. nd
ut
spaairdtymoief ttrthroerdTotroi"ad.d—t(oAtbleauegxhc.i)temilenet
histh e
us
.uhjei
sh tt• o
ctaol which
m. tehoe
ordeesrols tuotoi o r
dn
thefer rd,
atheta Majesty's which it
Go-
vernment o.
vernment were to retain office; that they still enjoyed the
confidence of their Sovereign, and still hoped to carry the
Bill. There was one thing be thought certain—that they
were the truest friends to their country who proclaimed,
not that a majority had a fixed determination to support the
Bill, but aoletermination to support the law; and that all
language which tended to influence the passions of the
people—all measures which tended to excite their hopes,
would only end in greater disappointment to all. They
ought not to refer to the possibility—they ought not to
teach the people that it was easy to refuse the payment of
taxes—they ought not to exaggerate the amount of public
meetings, and encourage others. It was easy enough to
say that 150,000 men assembled here, and 40,000 there,
but before such assertions were made individuals ought to
be correct as to the facts, for such statements led men to
meet in other places ; and such meetings do not take
place, though for a legal object, without exciting appre-
hensions in the well-disposed, and without exposing the
public peace to danger. Great masses of men could not
meet without exciting apprehension. He wished that
Hon. Members would warn the people of the con-
sequences of disobeying the law, particularly of re-
fusing to pay the taxes. The whole community was
deeply interested in preserving obedience to the law. It was
not for the advantage of the few, but fur the benefit of us
all ; and those mad proceedings now talked of would paralyse
industry, suspend commerce, and inflict the most grievous
injury on the lowest classes. Again he would say, that the
people should be informed that the privileges of the Peers,
which were now so lightly brought into discussion, were
not conferred on the Peers for the gratification of their
personal vanity—they were not so much personal paivia
leges as privileges conferred for the benefit a the whole
community, and which bad on eeyerzl occasions been use-
ful to the people themselves. The independence of the
Peers was ti guarantee and security to the liberties of the
people, and tranquillity would be best preserved by re•
specting their rights. He did not like to trust hitnself oat
this subject of excitement; but when he considered the
influence of the Government he was persuaded that if
the same means were employed to excite an opinion against
the Peerage wli:ich had been employed on the subject of
Reform, it would not be difficult to produce a very stronz
dislike to it. In conclusion, the Right Hon. Qt,swilernati
declared that alt who hail voted for the Relom 3hl would
probably vote for time resolution, while all who had op -ed
p.o.
the Bill were hound in consiatency, to vote Against the
resolution.—(]Near, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said I feel all the difficulties of my
situation, and therefore waited till the other Members
had delivered their opinions, wishing to learn the f;aaling
and opinions of the House before I stated key own views.
1 have now heard the opinions of gentlemen, and I will
take the opportunity of eul.ag a few words. From the
opinions I have heard it is stated that the conduct of tbg
ov,-,rnment has not been such as to deserve the conildence
of the House. Toe Right Hon. Bv:o.iii.l has adverted to
the financial measures, and to 'hr foreign, policy, and to
that still snore inir.4tant subject—the present state caf the
publie feeling, for which he holds his Majesty'a Govern-
ment responsible. As to our financial mea-nres, I will not
whatnow
le nptteor into
00se an o
ay that dotal; e.tai
subject r e sdpei
dc n them.
nut meta
metaett
with
t
Certainly
hapi
tphr
eeitenas iut ro,
know
ot hwe
aotu se;y:obznutLll9l haven,ofe
consequences. It
pisratotei satisfaction nevi-.
nn ewes,learei
said
. attended with beneficial
that the reiniskico of the tax on coals had nut been pro-
any
the
hoo
wn I
it
he
retnoter districts prices have fallen. When with re-
e
a
hav
g
deare:ese:i
measures
rcto:.elbfsesocittw.ofofsi. tiaoiasff‘al:‘dlep.":scemorintn,,.l,i
,ptoa:oor'vitnlel
te'ngakcf ttio;
soi that elmoafatanysitc:e;ltt.mxepiggnaodprtein:
ve:ratnrettitireipesen,
experience
cri:nhtet:c ohie;.octei ;tnghht mois' .30i.bntefac:1 roitl:wr
f 1;
faeturing districts it has had a great and beneficial
effe
he
hich I
dial
e
n.
cur
the
thers
ut
ire
on out foi-eign policy I will also abstain from entering
into details it
have preserved peace.—(Hear, hear.) One of the first
pledges that we gave, on entering upon office, was that we
would endeavour to do so. We have redeemed that
pledge, and there is no danger whatever that thg Foot

lesace will le' broken. As to the other sod moat inipor-
taut point to which the Right Hon. Baronet alluded,
namely, the present state of the public feeling, I maintain
that for that state the present Government are not ac-
countable. When we came into office, we found a strong
• and universal desire existing for Parliamentary Reform.
That desire bad been increasing for many years. The
' Right Hon. Baronet and his friends were obliged to ac_
knowledge its existence ; and so strongly had it operated
• on the Right Hen. Baronet's mind, that he allowed it hid
induced him on one occasion (before the introduction of
the late Bill) to abstain from voting iu that House,
on the question of Reform. Such was the state of
feeling when we came into office, and when my Noble
Friend at the head of Administration gave that pledge
on the sullect of Reform which was consistent with all
the principles of his public life. It has been insinuated
his
tjue
lost the crseottaiYodeGnri':_e-
n
t
ask, who
ofybofeyrrtitanii,m'e:
toeteaniu.nllscear,
tuadhsseeeGyd
of
olftlulat
Commons.
dtoemx° nt
thateffiloncnttehsr.eovrt toidewi
that knew the composition and character of the late House
of Commons would, in his senses, have proposed to them
an extended measure of Reform in consequence of our
having lost their confidence ? Does the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member recollect the sort of impression which the
measure made on its introduction into the late House ?
An impression so strong, that I am convinced if the.
House had divided on the first night, the Bill would have
lscen thrown out by an immense majority. It was only
after consideration, and after the sense of the country had
declared itself in favour of the Bill, that we obtained the
small majority that we did obtain. It was not we who
excited the feeling in favour of Reform ; but, that feeling
existing, it would have been very dangerous to have
brought in a delusive measure which would have disape
pointed the people. Undoubtedly, having passed the mea-
sure for the Reform of the representation by a great ma-
jority in this House, and having sent it to the other House
of Parliament, we did expect that at least it would have
been taken into consideration. In that expectation we
have been
.disappointed. The Right Hon. Baronet says
that this motion is unnecessary. Ido not mean to saw
that my Noble Friend did not previously tell me of his in-
tention to propose such a motion ; but the step was taken
entirely without our suggestion. The object of the mo-
tion—whether right or wrong it is not for me to say--
is, that it the House thinks that the removal of the present
Ministers from his Majesty's Councils would hive a disas-
trous effect on public affairs, it was desirous that the 1-1011110
should express a strong confidence in those Ministers. It
may be necessary that I should state frankly and freely on
the subject. For myself, I declare that unless I felt a rea-
sonable hope that a measure as efficient as that recently
passed in this House might be secured by our continuance
in office, I would not continue in office an hour.—
(Hear, hear, heir.) Whenever that hope ceases, I will
cease to hold office.—(Hear, bear.) Both my colleagues
and myself owe too much to our Sovereign—we are
too deeply indebted for the kindness, the candour, the
rank sincerity which we have uniformly experienced
frotn him to desert the service of the King while his Ma-
jesty thinks our s•rvices valuable and we ourselyea t, ink
we can advantageously serve his Majesty.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) But we can no longer serve his Majesty advanta-
eeously if we sacrifice our character. Whatever may be
the consequence of our retirement, it is our duty not to sa-
crifice our character. We owe also a great deal to the
people. We hare been supported by the pecisie in the
must handsome manner. 'The people have a right to de-
mand that we should not desert then, while our stay in of-
fice can conduce to their benefit. Sir, I will further state,
that I will not be a party to the proposal of any measure
less efficient than that lately passed in this House,—(Hear„
hear, hear.) Ido not mean to say, that after the discussioss
and consideration which the measure underwent, some mo-
dification may not be made in it which, without dimi-
nishing its efficiency, may render it more periect. But
what I mean to say is, that I will he no party to any
measure Lich Ido not conscientiously believe will
give the people a full, free, and fair representation in
Parliament, and secure all the objects which we hoped
to effect for them by the late Bill. It is impossible that
his Majesty's present Government can nuke any other
proposition to the House. I admit that the opponents of
the Bill.have had a great triumph ; although in the pre-.
sent debate, with the exception of one, lion. Gentle:oats,.
no great triumph has been expreesed. But lam conident
that the measure is only postponed. lam satisfied that. if
the people of England will be firm anti determined, but at
the same time peaceable and quiet, there can he no doubt
of their ultimate and even speedy succeas. There is (roe,
and only one, chance of failure anti disappointment. I
mean any occurrence that may lead the people to break
out into acts of victim*, or into any unconstitutional con-
duct, if I have any influence with the people, if they
put any trust in my sincerity, I implore them, for the
sake of the great cause in which we are engaged, to be
patient and peaceable, and to do nothing illegal and uncon-
stitutional.—(Hear, hear.) 1 would say to them "Be
as firm, be as determined, be as perseverinK as you
please; but never break through legal and constitutional
restraints, never place yourselves in a situation in which
the law must be put in operation against you. who-
ever are Ministers. "—(Hear, hear, hear.) By temper-
ance, steadiness, and perseverauce the cause of Par-
liamentary Reform must ultimately triumph.—(Cheara.)
Whether my Colleagues and myeelf are destined to have
the honour of success upon that question as Minis-
ters, or whether, as in the Catholic question, after hav-
ing fought the battle, others are to enjoy the glory of the
victory, I know not ; but as long as 1 have any voice in
the direction of public affairs, I will use my utmost exera
dons is the cause of Parltetneutary Reform._(Load cries
t‘f hear, hear.)

,
Mr. HUNT Tote to speak; but the noise which pre-
vailed in the douse was so great that we could hear only
ocesaional sentences of the Hon. Gentleman's speech. lie
expressed himself very much delighted at hearing the
Noble Chancellor of the
,xcltequer recommending peace
and obedience to the laws, the more especially as the
public Press was inciting the people to acts of violence.
He was persuaded, however, thet the Noble Lord need
not he alarmed. Notwithstanding the instigations of the
Press, in his opinion the people would not commit
any acts of violence. When the House of Lords
threw out the Bill the people had been recommended
to preserve peace. There Was no reason for such at
recommendation, Where had there been any violence?
Where had any multitudes of the people assetnbled ? Had
lion. Members seen the the people in great numbers in,
their way to the House? When the Catholic question
was under discussion, the assetublage of the people in the
neighbourhood of the House was twenty to one as compared
with the assemblage of that day; when the Corn Bill was
under discussion, a hundred to one. The newspapers of
that morning had said that all the shops were to be doled,
and that papers with the words " no taxes," were to be
; posted ou the shutters. He had put his horse to, and had
driven through Westminster, and the City, and over London-
bridge, and so to Elackfriars-road, and in the whole of
that distance he had not observed a single act of
violence, and had seen only one shop with a single
shutter LT. on which was exhibited thee word " Reform"
41, tnourning.—(A laugh.) He '.sad been asked why he
was not in the Regent's Park that morning. His answer
was, that he had no bnainesa there, and that he had nut
been invited.—(,A ,laugh..) He bad, however, been at a
meeting that night elsewhere, and, being asked, had taken
the chair. The mezting consisted of between two and
1 three thMhsan4 persons. He th4ught lie could not do
better thus submit to that meeting the proposition which
tha Noble Lord had submitted to the 'Luse; and the re.
stilt was, that when Coe question was put, seven hands were
held up in favour of the proposition am! above 2,0 t
against it.,-_-_Vt. laugh.) He had told the meeting that he
had ti confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. And why
i'v'.,.cause they came in on vle4eir of economy, retrench-
ment, and Reform, wh„th pledges they had violated. The
kind of Reform which they proposed he had never advo-
cated in his life; and he was sure it would give no satisfac-
tion i,-.-..the people at large,—(Much noise and coughing.)
Mr. CROKER hoped the House would listen to the
Hon. Member for Preston, as ha seldom troubled them at
any great iength.—(A laugh.)
Mr. HUNT proceeded,,,-Hie Majesty's Ministers had
come in on a pledge of economy and retrenchment. How
had they redeemed it ? When they were in opposition
they opposed the grant of 16,000/. for the propagation of
the Gospel, and proposed that it alkauld be reduced to
5.,0D0., and the next year totally withdrawn. When
they came into power, they obtained the whole 16,0001.
Who were so loud as the present Ministers when in op-
position against ate extravagance of Windsor Castle ? And
yet they who complained so Ludly of the expenee of the
itiimishing of Windsor castle, obtained an additional
grant of 10,0001. i'w• furnishing two rooms. They
had increased the army and the navy—they lied
called out the yeomanry and the militia. Was that
economy? When the Committee on the Civil LiCommittCommitteeappointed by the present Ministers—broughtst- in
a
their report, recommending
recommendation was rejected, Was that rereachmeut r''
to the Queer Tney tben proposed an annuity of 100,0001.. c
in. . .i.
intstra-
in the event of the King's death. If a Tory A 1
what a clamour would tion had made such a propn.itiu",
„ there was so muck
have been raised against th
._(Hereeato hear the Hen. coughing that we were unable
.. Gentle-
man for several minutes.) If the noise continued he.
would wove an adjournmeat. The present Ministers Imes
a reduction of 12,000!., that,