The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-10 00:00:00

VENTILATION OF MINES.

Mr. FORBES asked the Right Hon. Baronet if his
attention had been called to a Bill introduced by the
Honourable Member for Portland on the subject of ven-
tilating mines, and if so, if it was the intention of Go-
vernment to give it their approbation.
Sir GEORGE GREY replied that on the motion for
the second reading of the Bill introduced by the Hon.
Member fur Finsbury a general opinion was
expressed that legislation on the subject should
be delayed until next session, when they would have the
report of the Lords' Committee and of the two inspec-
tors, and if, therefore, the Bill were pressed he should
certainly oppose it.
COALS.

Lord H. VANE wished to ask the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether his attention had been
directed to the high duty imposed by France on coals
imported into that country by sea, compared with that
levied on coals imported on the land frontier by the
Meuse, and through the department of the Mo,elle; ano
whether, in the event of his attention having teen
directed to that subject, he entertained any hope that the
French Government will consent to equalise the duties?

Lof d PALMER )TON said some communications had
passed on the subject between the two Governments, but
nothing had passed in the matt: r within the lust twelve
mouths. His own impression, however, was, that the
regulation referred to by the Hon; Member wsre op-
posed to existing treaties between the two nations, and
efforts would be wade to get rid of it.
JUVENILE OFFENDERS.

Mr. M. MILN ES then ruse to call the attention
of the House to the treatment and condition of juvenile
'criminals in this country. There was no subject, he
said, of more impartauce and interest to the statesmat,
and philanthropist than that of prison discipline, but
it was a strange circumstance that the one branch of it,
which was involved in the least difficulty, namely, the
treatment of juvenile offenders had been almost entirely
neglected. Juvenile criminals were inert acing daily
this country, and it, would appear somewhat singular, but
it nevertheless was true, that they were treated as men.
When he said this question had obtained very little at-
tention he knew very well something had been done
with regard to penal treatment of young offenders. At
Parkhurst they had established a penal school in-
stead of a prison, but still it was an establish-
ment essentially and immediately of a penal nature,
and one in which the reformatory character was
utterly forgotten. The boy from Parkhurst was thrown
upon the world with an unfitness for independent
action, and destitute of the ability to serve his country
as an• honest citizen. Very little reflection might have
taught them that it -could hardly have been otherwise,
because what had been done at Parkhurst had been to
give a boy a strong impression of punishment; they had
done nothing to improve his heart or to awaken his
conscience; they had done nothing absolutely of a re-
formatory character. He (Mr. Manes) would
recommend the establishment of some such asylum for
criminal youth as was found in the Philanthropic Insti-
tution, which was of long date, but it had only risen
into vigour and promise under the guidance and energy
of that remarkable man, Mr. Sidney Turner, and be-
come the model for the Malterai in France. It was not
for him (Mr. M. Manes), under present circum-
stances, to lay down any distinct plan under which
a measure of that kind might be adapted to
the large prison population ; but he would
suggest, as the Noble Lord the Member for Bath
had by a late measure established in all the counties in
England fit and proper asylums for those persons who
had been unfortunately deprived of their reason, estab-
lishments of a similar nature should be formed
for the purpose of • reforming from the ways 01
inevitable crime that enormous body of youthful
offenders. On a rough calculation between 70,000 anti
80,000 persons came under the notice of the law in
the metropolis and the adjacent districts, and at least a
seventh part of those persons were under thirteen
years of age. Ito thought that in the first place
slight corporal punishment should be administered
to juvenile offenders by the constable of the dis-
trict; for the second offence the child should
be sent for one or two years to one of those reformatory
houses; and for the third offence to be sent to one of those
establishments for so long a period as even five or six years.
The 9th of Victoria was passed at the instance ot a lad),
who, from her sympathy with her suffering fellow-
creatures, might be placed on a parallel with Mrs. Fry—
he meant Mtse Murray; but, notwithstanding the excel-
lent provisions of that Bid, it had remained inopera-
tive, because the Government heel, from some cause or
other, not made use of that valuable instrument
placed in their hands. Notwithstanding all they had
done with respect to summary convictions, crime was
still on the increase; and whilst no proper provision
was made for the returnietien of juvenile offenders, it
would continue to increase. Why could they not send
them to the colonies, to become there useful atm
reformed members of society ? The colonies, which
would shrink with horror at receiving a number
of old transports, would receive with gladness children.
He was content to leave the question in the hands of the
Right Hon. Baronet, who, he trusted, during the recess
would direct his attention to this important subject, ant►
that in another session he would not leave it to an
individual Member of the House. Next session he
trusted the Right Hon. Baronet would have made a step
in the right direction; but it he conceived the subject
unworthy of his attention, and did not stir in it, he (Mr.
Manes) should, year after year, press it upon the atten-
tion of the House, in order to destroy that moral
anomaly ot confounding the crime of the man with the
delinquency of the child. He moved for leave to bring
in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the refurmatioe
of juvenile offenders.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.

ISir. G. GREY said he should be ready to acquiesce
in the motion it he really thought his Hon. Frend had
a Bill in his possession.
Mr. MILNES said he intended his motion to
apply to the intrcduction of a Bill next year.
Sir G. GUEY said he quite agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman in most that he had :said. With him, he
thought that far more might be done with the young
offenders than with those of more mature years, arid that
the Government should apply themselves more to there-
formation of the young than to those of advanced age.
It should be remembered that Parkhurst was not a
penal school, but a prison, and that very great good
had resulted from its operations. It had been esta-
blished for the reception of youths between fourteen
and sixteen, who having committed offences which
subjected them to the penalty of transportation,
were sent there at the recommendation of the judge or
the chairman of the quarter sessions; and after a time,
if their conduct was good, they were sent abroad to
some colony where they would be free from all liability
to contamination. The prison combined two elements,
the reformation of the inmates and punishment for
the penal offences which they had committed,
and the object which Parliament had in view in
establishing it bad been fully answered. The chief
evil of the present system was short terms of
imprisonment frequently with reepect to persons of
tender age, who were, by that means brought in con-
nection with persons of a more advanced age and of a
more hardened character, and who came out of
prison much worse than when they went
in. The Honourable Gentleman had adverted to
the Act, lately passed, giving power to summarily con•
vict, and ho (Sir G. Grey) was happy to state that
the results of it had been most satisfactory, and that the
punishment which it inflicted was looked upon with more
dread than any other kind of punishment. He should be
happy to consider any suggestion that could be thrown
out for the more satisfactory treatment of juvenile (Han-
ders, but he had to protest against the assumption
that the subject was free horn all difficulty.—
(Hear, hear.) The Philanthropic Society et:hunted that
it was attended with great difficulties. In the report of
the
ussti•edenedretdh parentsetrhiiat :on tataokyteeh e world.
.un-
Society a number. of valuable suggestions were
thrown out—among which was one that parents should
be made liable to the support of their children
who, through their neglect, became igr.nyrmedaa,tteseirsr:,,broieef
any of our prisons or reformatory institutions.
oapo ibir'joilteth:c: jet itgrbebed°9c,aayh.::uPeostr:ii. liti'. c:me:irog: uhnhltdedglicinvoodent rise to coesiderable huge :ion.
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Mr. IJANKES said that the 53 sty m of reparation :hat
was suggested could riot be carried out in airchebe.r.
The Secretary of Stet" had put a stop to the gaol ac-
eornmodettion : hat was parsed by the magistrate:;
there, who ha, egreed to expend upwards of three th,u-
sand poie ds upon it, ::hit i,z,d suggested the tedopie,n
of a plan that ...milli fist t, n thou-and pounds,
which that county could noc afford. lie was happy to
hear that with respect to juvenile offenders the uttentioo
of the Government had been directed to that iubject.
As to the system of classification. he did not thiok it
could be carried out. He cordially wished success
to the motion of his Honourable Friend, and thought
that he could not do better tbae support the Bill that
had been brought in by her Majesty's Government. It
was a step in the right direction, et.d as much as he
thought could be expected during, the present session,
Sir J PAKINGTON exprea,ed his regret that this
question had been brought on at this late period of the
session, and with the ebje.:t expre,sed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Pontefract. He was rather surprised that the
Honourable Gentleman had concluded with a motion
fur leave to introduce a Bill, as he expected
the Honourable Gentleman intended to move the
appointment of this Committee on the suhj ct. When
the Right lion. Gentleman the Secr. tury of State for
the Home Department came into office, he had some
conversation with him on this subject, and he cer-
tainly had been in hope that the Right Honoura-
ble Baronet would ere this have introduced a
Bill to authorise the construction of an establishment for
the reformation of juvenile offenders. He thought it
highly desirable that a Committee should be appointed
to advise the House in this matter before it was further
proceeded with.
Mr. HENLEY trusted the Hon. Member for Ponte-
fract would go one step further in the matter, and bring
in the Bill of which he had given notice. Of course he
could not hope to pass it this session, but it would add
to the general fund of information which bad been col-
lected on the subject.
Sir GEORGE GREY was ignorant of the fact re-
lated by the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, but ho
would cause inquiry to be made into them.
Mr. M. MILNES would follow the advice of the
Noble Gentleman opposite, and lay his Bill on the table
before the House separated. The reason he had delayed
the introduction of this question so long was because he
had been in daily expectation that Government would
take it up with vigour.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
TEMPORALI'IES OF THE CHURCH OF

IRELAND.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE then rose pursuant to
notice to move for a Committee of the whole
House to consider the present state of the tempo-
ralities of the Church of Ireland. The Honourable
Gentleman, he said, the Member for Pontefract, in in-
troducing the very useful measure he had just brought
before the House, had told the House how difficult it was
for any individual Member to grapple with the
subject of the treatment and the formation of juvenile
uffeeders. If it was difficult for an individual Member
to' bring such a subject before the House, how much
more difficult it was for an independent Member of
Parliament, totally unconnected as he was, not only with
the Govt-rnweut, but with any political party to bring
fore and the question of which he had given notice for
this evening.— (Hear, hear.) However' he might
regret that the great names and ability which
were fieenerly devoted to the discussion of tine
question wt re no longer available for the purpose
et least he could nit be accused of showing any undue
presumption in now submitting it to the notice of the
House.—t. Cries of " Hear, hear.") Whether it was that
;he aspect of Irish grievances had been more rank and
.Afensive to gentlemen on the opposite benches, or that
~be Irish repress ritativee themeelves, as a body, were
inuifhirent to this subj. cc he knew not, but this gees-
.iou of the Irish Church, which was formerly the gather.
ing cry of the Whig::, had been within the last trw years
indite!). laid aside, and that instrument, on which so
many harmonious tunes had bteu played, was now
ilte the fabulous harp of Tara, hung up mute.
and remained utistrune.—(Hear, hear.) However,
iion. Gentleman differed with him ten this question,
isney would nut be inclined to say that it eas
net ene of the gravest consideration. Where
,he whole eccltslastical revenues of the country
were devoted to one-tenth of the pepulation, and that
~lie Lentil of the pan the Protestant minority, anti
where the religion of the majority was but
sicked at by the Save, he could not but think
such a question was in itself worthy the gravest conside-
ration o, this House. He thought teere was no Member lit
chat House, writ), it even they had to commence legislating
in this subject de novo would be inclined to take those
funds founded by the auces.urs 01 the poor Catholic ma
jority, and bestow them upon the spiritual education ef
the rich Protestant minority.—(Cries oi "11 ar, hear.")
Lie should give one of the best definitions he
anew of the Irish Church in a very few words.
It • was the opinion of a great Conservative
statesman. He said, " You have an' ecclesiastical
establishment which, though the religion of the Prince
and must of the first-class of landed proprietors was not
the religion of the major part of the people." That was
said by Burke in 1796. And how stood the case
in 1849? It was true they had corrected
.Oraer", Itagrant abuses, hut, the evil still existed.
In 1823" the question of the temporalities of the Irish
Church was first mooted in that House by that pioneer
of all modern improvements, his Honourable Friend
the Member for Montrose. Unlike the generality
of original projectors, whose projects were treated
in their time as the offsprings of political empiricism,
he had lived to find them carried out by the leaders of
both parties, and who, nevertheless, never laid claim to
them, but pursued the " even tenor of his way"—
(Cheers)—and happily continued in pristine strength
and adhered with stern consistency to the sentiments of
his early days.—(Hear, hear.) That motion was sup-
ported by Mr. Ward, the late Member for Sheffield, and
by the present President of the Board of Control, and the
Prime Minister. For eight years he continued this
course, and was supported in it by of some of those
now in the Cabinet. At length, Lord Alihorp
brought in a Bill on the subject, which abolished
vestry cess, but the 147th clause, or the appropriation
clause, was in an evil hour abandoned. A remarkable de-
bate ensued, which was fully reported in Hansard. In those
days arbitration was much needed, for several Members
were called out. Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Connell op-
posed the Bill, and Mr. Shiel made a speech which
would never be forgotted. He regretted he did not
'avour the House with speeches so often as the House
could wish.—(Hear, hear.) Upon that occasion Dr.
Lushington entreated the House to adjourn since
in his experience he had never seen the
decencies of public and private life so much
violated. The Bill was given up. Still. Mr.
Ward persevered in 1835. Li 1834 Mr. O'Connell
ead made his great motion for repeal, but he
was met wish an amendment. But it was
desirable to
promote all important inprovements. On the
30th of March in that year, Lurd John Itus-ell brought
on a motion on tine subject, and the Parliament of that
day passed the Appropriation 8111. Still Mr. Ward went
tin making his annual motions. In 1843, Mr. Smith
O'Brien, who whatever his faults were was en
honest Member of Parliament, brought forward
a motion. In that year the present Chanci llor of the
Exeh- (pier said the fit Si evil of Ireland was the state of
the Irish Church.