The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 25, 1849,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 24.

Their Lordships met to-day shortly after Four o'clock.
ROYAL ASSENT.

The Royal Assent was given to-day to the following
thirteen private and public Bills :
it. John's (Newfoundland) Rebuilding Bill.
Grants of Land (New South Wales) Bill.
Lind Improvement and Drainage (Ireland) all.
Poor-laws (Ireland) Rate-in-Aid Bill.
Grimsby Corporation and Freemen's Arrangement Bill.
Whitehaven Waterworks Bill.
Marshland, Smeeth, and Fen (Equalization of Drainage
Rates and Repair of Road) Bill.
Kidderminster Union Small Tenement Rating Bill.
Argyle Canal (Abandonment of Undertaking) Bill.
New Roes Port and Harbour Amendment Bill.
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Additional Capital
and Amendment of Acts) Bill.
North-Western Railway (Extension of Lancaster
Branch, Abandonment of Williams Land Branch,
New Road to Settle Station, Extension of Time for
Purchase of Land and Construetion of Works) Bill.
Bradford Waterworks Bill.
The Lords Commissioners were the Earl of Shaftes-
bury, the Marquis of Clanricarde, and Lord Campbell.
The House then adjourned during pleasure.
Their Lordships resumed at Five o'clock.
The Earl of if ARROWBY presented several petitions,
praying for an alteration in the Sale of Beer Act.
BANKRUPTCY CONSOLIDATION LAWS BILL.
On the motion of Lord BROLTG" AM this Bill was
committed pro.formil.

REPORTERS' GALLERY.
Lord BEAUMONT presented the report of the Com-
mittee. recommending the erection of a temporary
gallery.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE gave notice that, on
the understanding that the temporary gallery would be
erected, he should move to-morrow that the House do
adjourn to the Monday se'nnight following.
BANKRUPTCY LAWS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that on Tuesday
se'nnight he should move the further consideration of
this Bill.

Lord WHARN CANADA.
CLIFFE asked if the Noble Earl had
received the promised dispatch from the Governor of
Canada, and if so, whether he would lay it on the table
to-morrow?

Earl GREY said he had received the dispatch, and
he would lay it on the table on an early day, but he
could not promise to do so to-morrow.
Lord BROUGHAM postponed his motion on the
subject of Canada, to this day fortnight, when he should
draw the attention of the House to recent events in
Canada, and to the Bill introduced by the Government
and assented to by the Governor General.

- PETITIONS.
The Earl of YARBOROUGH presented a petition
from Hampshire, complaining of agricultural distress,
and praying for a revision of local taxation.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented petitions com-
plaining that Sir Robert Peel had passed free•trade
measures contrary to the interests of the agriculturists,
and praying for the imposition of a duty on the im-
portation of foreign corn, and against the repeal of the
navigation-laws.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the
committee of the Shipowners Society against a repeal
of the navigation-laws, or, in the event of such a repeal
being determined on, for an extension of the time before
it sha 1 be brought into active operation.
Earl TALBOT presented several petitions against a
repeal of the navigation-laws.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.

On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE,
their Lordships resolved themselves into Committee on
the Navigation•laws Repeal Bill, Lord Beaumont in the
chair.

On the clause enacting that the measure shall come
into operation on the let January, 1850, being proposed,
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH moved that the
word " one" should be added, so that the Bill should not
come into operation until January, 1851. He said the
amendment in no way affected the principles of the mea-
sure, and was only intended to render the change more
gradual, and enable the shipowner to prepare to meet
the competition which he would have to encounter from
foreigners. The time at present specified in the Bill,
namely, seven months, was too short, as there were now
many vessels departing, or about to depart, from home
ports for foreign ports, which, at the expiration of that
term, would be in such foreign ports. Now as the ship-
owner, in order to be able to compete with the foreigner
would have to reduce his expenses of sailing, it would
manifestly be very incoavient for him to have to make
' the economical changes necessary, such as a reduction
of crews, masts, sails, &c., in a foreign port. He also
to enter into negotiations for reciprocal treaties, and that
affairsurged
ri ne i
gt hne
epo ruens
terni
et
s, i
t agitatedwo would
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very nf t
ihnee
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e nt
time ought to be given to enable such negotiations to
be carried on with the care and prudence they re-
quired. Another reason why it was advisable to post-
pone the period was, that it was desirable that the alter-
ation should come into force during the sitting of Par-
liament, so that Ministers might be stimulated by the
questions that would be put to them to enter into and
I carry on transactions with foreign powers for obtaining
such reciprocal advantages.—(Hear.) A very import-
ant point which required time for its consideration, aad
which would materially bear on the question, was with
regard to the masters of vessels. It was of the highest
consequence to the British shipowner, if he was to com-
pete with foreigners, that the utmost attention should be
paid to the competence and character of the masters he
employed, and that the public should receive the fullest
assurance that that was attended to. For that purpose
he considered there should be a previous examination of
masters on all necessary points of nautical knowledge.
In her Majesty's service, if a ship were lost, the :captain,
officers, and crew, were brought to a court martial, and
compelled to give reasons for losing the vessel; and if
they did not do so satisfactorily, they were subject to
punishment. He thought that might be advantageously
extended to the merchant service, and also where the
vessel was lost by the incompetence or neglect of the
master, that the shipowner should be liable to a fine for
not having made proper inquiry, or that their insurance
should be void. All these he considered absolutely ne-
cessary to enable the British shipowner to compete with
the foreigner, and for these reasons he urged the House
to agree to his amendment.
Earl GREY trusted the House would not adopt the
amendment. lie felt that great improvements were ne-
cessary, but he did not think them so imperatively
necessary as to justify the delay which the Noble Earl
proposed. In no foreign country was there any excess
of shipping;
nbouutg,h to raisesuch a competition assuming that they wceore,oerwtiooun with
British numerous
British vessels as would drive them out of the market,
still, he would contend, until the ships he spoke of were
built, it was impossible that foreign ships could, to any
great extent, supersede British ships. The draft of ships
shipping,miringoccasioned
aspectn bd iemigration
for
addition
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future t
oto, Californiaphroossep oeirri.otoymo
sftaasnciidoi
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turbed i
Is t.
were new sources of demand for the employment of
foreignpasscotuhnistrAiecst,hheeldwaosutcoanvveinr
twuarsb ed
only state anteeo
necessary
ary t
o
wtoirtyh thfoeomtianjgoriptyososifbtlho.e principal
foreign convinced, to
a the
state shipping
on
place t
he ourmost negotiations
satisfactory
otisfao
foreign countries, in point of commercial regulations,
of
uncertaintyint e r interest of
a s this
wcoouul country
t royf
other hand, nothing could be worse than by adopting
necessity ensue. The trade of the S,. Lawrence would
thisinto
sdoe 1
embarrassingay , to thro w
be completely crippled, and in other quarters of the
world a corresponding amount or practical inconvenience,
and of injury to the commerce of Great Britain, would
be occasioned. For those reasons he hoped the Com-
mittee would not consent to the proposition of the Noble
Lord.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that he could not help
agreeing with the Noble Earl who had just resumed his
seat, in the observations he had made with regard to the
inconvenience and uncertainty which would arise from
delay, and he felt the force of it so strongly as to regret
very much that the Bill had not been introduced at an
earlier period, so as to admit of its being brought into
force in the course of the next month, or at any rate
during the session of Parliament.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that if the Bill were
ready for operation in America next month, it would
even then be quite two months after the opening of the
St. Lawrence.
The Committee then divided, and there appeared—
Contents for the amendment 44
Non-contents against it . 57
Majority against the amendment —l3
Earl WALDEGRAVE rose to move an amendment,
the nature of which could not be precisely ascertained
from his speech, not one word of which could be heard
in the reporters' gallery; but it was supposed to have
relation to the exclusion of foreign ships from the benefit
of the English registry.
Earl GRANVILLE said that the latter observations
of his Noble Friend made it unnecessary for him to
address their Lordships at any length. It was quite
clear that we could build ships better and cheaper in
London than in any part of the world, and the fact that
Messre. Green it'd Wigram, of Biackwall,
gave a larger sum for labour in London
than they would pay either in America or in
Sunderland, showed that the mere money value was
the smallest consideration in respect to ship building. It
might be said, if we could build ships cheaper than fo-
reign Countries, why should we pass this clause? The
reason was this, that the monopoly which at present ex-
isted on this subject was not only injurious to the country,
but to the parties interested in it.
The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND agreed with
the amendment, and thought it unfair to admit foreign
ships to the advantages of the English registration of
ships. He supported the navigation-laws because,
amongst other things, they were calculated to prevent
the necessity of impressment, the painfulness of which he
had often witnessed. The Noble Duke then alluded to
the advantage which an American-built ship would have
over an English-built ship in times of peace and war. In
the former case, the American ship could trade on the
American coast, while the English ship could only take
in ballast, and in the latter the English ship could only
leave port in convoy: whereas the American ship would
be able to go whero it pleased. He looked upoa the na-
vigation-laws as necessary to the maintenance of our
mercantile marine, which he believed to be essential to
the continuance of our greatness.
The Earl of CADOGAN supported the amendment.
The Earl of MIN ro defended the clause, and con-
tended that this country was not likely to suffer in re-
spect to ship-building in the event of it passing, for
labour and materials, with the exception of one article.
were more expensive in America than in this country.
He had no doubt the effect of this measure would be 'to
render ships of a.valuablecharacter cheaper. He thought
on the whole tkat the introduction pf cheaper ships
would increase commerce and the intitcourac fictive*

nations, this country retaining her position as a mari-
time power.

Lord COLCHESTER denied that we could compete
with the Americans, as had been stated by the Noble
Earl the Secretary for the Colonies. Mr. Wigram
stated that it cost him twer.ty-four pounds a ton to build
a ship fit for sea. Mr. Winton, another witness, stated
that at New York they could build ships for from 14 to
15 pounds a ton, and gave it as his opinion that this
competition would ruin the trade in this country, and
he should be obliged to send his son to New York to
build ships there, should the me.asure become law. The
result would have a most injurious effect upon the
great body of artificers engaged in the trade of ship-
building.
Esrl TALBOT would say but a few words in addition
to what had bean already urged in favour of the amend-
ment. He felt it his duty as a naval officer, to warn
them against the danger they incurred in admitting
foreign ships to have a British register. There was no
doubt that ships would be built cheaper at Sunderland
than in the River Thames; but the Sunderland ships
were built of foreign timber, whereas they used British
produce in the construction of ships built in the River
Thames. There would be a great inconvenience on the
breaking out of a war, from having their seamen sailing
under foreign flags. He hoped their Lordships would
not pass the clause. hut vlopt the amendment.

The Earl of ELLESMERE said the ship-building
trade had been a monopoly, but he could not but think
that the removal of that monopoly might not in the end
be advantageous, although inconvenience might arise
while it was in a state of transition. He had seen several
monopolies removed at various times, from which great
injury was anticipated, resulting in ultimate benefits.
If the existing superiority of the British marine would
bo broken down by this measure, he feared it would be
imor,ssible to retain it. He thought it would have a
different effect.

The Earl of lIARROWBY supported the amend-
ment, on the ground that the British shipowner would
be put in an unfair position in competing with foreigners
who could build ships so much cheaper.
Earl GRANVILLE, in answer to the Noble Earl
who had just spoken, read a portion of the evidence of
Mr. Minton, who, in answer to questions 8,598, said that
the only item was wood, with regard to which a ship
could be built cheaper in America than in England.
The Marqui,, of LANSDOWNE observed that by re-
turns of the Baltic trade in the years 1845, 1846, and
1847, the amount of English,shipping which had passed
the sound had progressively increased, and that the effect
of this measure would rather tend to assist that increase
than otherwise.

Lord STANLEY said that the navigation-laws prac-
tically gave this country the whole of the tea trade with
China, and the advantage afterwards of shipping in de-
tail the smaller quantities of tea required by foreign
countries. The Government, however, appeared to con-
skier that circumstance and other monopolies of a similar
nature an argument in favour of the measure.
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were—
Contents for the amendment 37
Non contents against it 49
Majority against --12
Lord STANLEY said that though he did not intend
to divide the Committee again upon any other question
involved in this Bill, still there were some points to
which he must draw their Lordships' attention, because
it really appeared as it the Noble Earl opposite had
wholly omitted to consider them. He firmly believed
that their repeal of the navigation-laws would prove the
destruction of English shipping; but it was, moreover,
very unjust, as, with reference to the navigation of the
St. Lawrence, it quite deprived the Canadians of a
choice of transit for their exports to this country, either
by New York or the St. Lawrence. With regard to the
West Indies, the island of Trinidad complained, not of
the navigation-laws, but of an order in Council, under
Act of Parliament, which was not the navigation-law,
but in which it was reverted, that by the navigation-
law, that trade which by the Possession Act
should have come to it, was otherwise diverted.
On this point, and some others, the present
Bill contained contradictory provisions, her Majesty
being empowered to dispense with the fulfilment by
the colonies of certain conditions, which she neverthe-
less had to certify the performance of. With these great
discrepancies in view, he thought he should not be jus•
tified in contending against minor provisions; but there
were one or two that ought not to pass by without notice,
because they entailed upon the shipowner the most one-
rous restrictions of the present system, exposing him at
the same time to an open competition. The Govern-
ment held out prospects of a renewal of the South Sea
Whale Fishery. At present the oil could only be ex-
ported from the foreign ports into which it was brought,
where it was entered, and from which it was afterwards
cleared out. He contended that all seamen looked upon
that provision of the navigation-laws which related to
apprentices, as most essential to the welfare of the
maritime marine of this country. There was another
point on which he desired to make an observation. By
the first clause, it was proposed to place the Lascar
upon the same footing as British seamen. This was
proposed to be done in ignorance of the demands of the
service, and in ignorance of the purpose of the existing
resolutions. The chief object of this part of the navi-
gation-laws was to save the Lascars, who, from their
physical structure, were not equal to the severe duties
of sailors in all parts of the world. In conclusion, he
would observe that he would give the Bill no further
opposition, but would leave the entire responsibility of
passing the measure upon the Government.—(Hear.)
Earl GREY contended that if the amendment which

the Noble Lord had proposed on a former evening had
been adopted, it would have been futile as regarded
Canada, and would have produced great di,content in
the other colonies. Then, as regarded the whale fishery,
he contended that they were perfectly justified in alter-
ing the protection given to British ships in respect to this
fishery, for, under protection, we had lost the whole of
the whale fishery, which' would now be resuscitated
through the medium of vessels coming from New Zea-
land and other places, whose trade would be served by
this new arrangement in respect to the whale fishery.
He would not, after the declaration by the Noble Lord,
that he would not further oppose the Bill, occupy their
Lordships' time at any great length.
After a few words from Lord Colchester, Earl Gran-
ville, and Eirl Waldegrave,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that the Bishop of
Oxford would not bring forward the amendment of
which he had given notice until the third reading of the
Bill. _

The clauses up to, and including clause eight, were
then agreed to.
Upon clause nine being proposed,
Lord ELLENBOROUGII objected to the power
given to her Majesty in Councilito regulate the proportion
of foreign sailors to British in British merchant ships,
and said that this power ought only to be vested in her
Majesty in Council in time of war.
Earl GREY said that this proviso was intended to
meet the heavy draft that might be made upon the mer-
cantile marine to meet the wants of her Majesty's navy
in a time of war; but there was great diffiulty in defining
in an Act of Parliament what was a time of war, and
therefore no alteration ought to be made in the clause.
Lord ELLENBOROUI-1, after this explanation,
would withdraw his opposition to the clause, which was
consequently agreed to.
Upon clause 10 being proposed,
Lord WIIARNCLIFFE rose to object to the reci-
procity clauses in the Bill, but he said that as the Noble
Lord (Stanley) had expressed his determination not
to oppose the further progress of the measure, he
(Lord Wharncliffe) would not press upon their Lordships'
consideration the amendments which he had intended
to propose in this part of the Bill. Their object was to
throw open the navigation to all nations, but where a
foreign power refused to reciprocate, he thought they
ought to have the power either to withhold the relaxation,
or to take any other measures which might be consi-
dered necessary to protect their own interests. Mr.
Flaton, the American statesman, held that every nation
had the abstract right to regulate their home commerce,
and also that with their colonies. He thought, before
they were justified in relaxing any restrictions existing
against foreign ships, they ought to demand a corres-
ponding relaxation on the part of the nation, which
might avail itself of such relaxation. He hoped it
would not be thought he had taken up too much time
in explanation of the clause he had intended to propose.
If he had any chance of pressing the amendment with
success, without injuring the Bill, he would have done
so. As the case stood, however, he should only submit
the amendment to the consideration of the Committee.

Earl GREY said he was ready to do justice to the
motives of the Noble Lord in proposing the amendment.
but he could not agree with him that its adoption would
be an improvement. It was quite impossible to carry out
the principle of reciprocity, the effect of which would be,
in fact, to punish themselves, by acting on the principle
of retaliation. He was glad their was no intention to
press the amendment.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said he thought they
had no middle course to pursue with regard to Canada.
They should stipulate for that colony a perfect freedom
of intercourse between that colony and the United States,
just as if Canada was an independent State. This ought
to be aimed at through negotiation with America.

The Earl of lIARROWBY thought they ought to
leave nothing to be gained by Canada through annexa-
tion with America—and would impress this view of the
case on the Government, Parliament by this measure
would leave a great discretion to the Government, which
ought to be exercised with discretion.
Earl GREY said the Government was perfectly sen-
sible of the importance of removing the restrictiwis
which existed in the intercourse between Canada and the
United States. He also felt satisfied that these restric-
tions were more injurious to the United States than to
Canada. That colony was no doubt suffering from the
general commercial depression, but he had no doubt that
the effect of this Bill would be to ope❑ a new career of
prosperity for that colony.
Earl ST. GERNIANS said that as he had not taken a
great part in the progress of this Bill through their
Lordship's House, he did not propose on this occasion
to speak at any length upon the subject. lie would take
that opportunity of expressing his firm conviction, how-
ever, that any attempt at reciprocity must prove futile,
against the innumerable difficulties which would present
themslyes upon the adoption of that policy. He did
not attach much importance either to the value of a re•
taliatory policy, but he could easily conceive that causes
of great aggravation might arise to call for it, which it
might be the means of removing. A liberal line of
policy would, no doubt, obviate on all occasions for this
modo of dealing; and that was the point, he thought,
towards which their legislation ought to tend.
The amendment was then by leave withdrawn, and
the clause agreed to; as were also the remaining clauses.
Their Lordships then resumed, and the Bill was or-
dered to be reported to-morrow (this day).
The Earl of CARLISLE moved the second reading of
the Freemen's Lands Bill, which was agreed to.
Earl GRANVILLE moved the second reading of the
Accounts of Turnpike Trusts (Scotland) Bill, whioh was
also agreed to.
Who Dad CtLE.NciAl.+l4 pvo u9tico of a motion on