The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-03 00:00:00

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aPastle of the Government.—(Dissent from Mr. O'Connell.)
IDid the lion. and Learned Member disclaim the object of his
'visit ? lie ( Sir J. Graham) understood him to hay.: said that
lis was a mission in favour of his Majesty's Government and
justice to Ireland.—( Loud cheering, during which)—
Mr. GORING rose to order amidst much confusion, and
said in a loud tone, I appeal to you, Sir, whether this is the
question before the House? 'Whether the question before the
Horse is the contest for Newcastle, or—(The rest of the sen-
tence was drowned in the noise.) After some moments—
Sir J. GR.A HAM proceeded amidst much cheering. The
Right Hon. Baronet explained that in reply to an observation
of the lion. Member for Middlesex as to the state of public
feeling on this question, he was about to show what tha elec-
tors of Newcastle had thought of it. Of his late lamented
friend it was said that he had been an apostate and a renegade,
and it was the duty of the electors to deprive him of his seat;
and at the last election issue was joined upon the very point—
the appropriation principle—on which the late Member was
supposed to have incurred the displeasure of his constituents.
The Noble Lord shook his head ; but was not there a witness
present ill the House who could say on what terms he claimed
the support of the electors and freemen of Newcastle.—( Th Chancellor of the Exchequer—." The freemen !") Yes, the free-
e
snen. Was there already a distinction to the prejudice of those
freemen who had had their right of voting confirmed only in the
last year? lie ( Sir J. Graham) maintained that this very
question of appropriation was proposed by the candidate, and
that he said lie would not vote for its principle.
An lion. MEMBER—Triennial Parliaments.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The Hon. Gentleman behind the Trea-
sury bench said with an air of triumph, triennial Parliaments.
—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) That was no doubt
most constitutional and excellent advice.—( Renewed cheers,
and cries Mof " Order, order.") It was said that the Hon.
Par ember for
liam Nawcastle had pledged himself to support triennial
ents ; but was it not likely that the present Parlia-
ment
'would expire before that period by something like the
same -.sort of advice ?—( Cheers fro the Opposition benches.)
He was anxious to make an observation on what had fallen
from the Noble Lord opposite, the Secretary for the Home
bepartment. The Noble Lord appeared to think that on a
farmer occasion he (Sir J. Graham) had misrepresented him
—that he had charged him with dissimulation in the conduct
which he had pursued with respect to the appropriation clause
Lore they, were colleagues—members of the Government of
Lord Grey. Now, nothing could be further from his inten-
tion than bringing such a charge against the Noble Lord. If
he (Sir J. Graham) were obliged to state the result of tho
eonversations which had taken pace, both in and out of the
Cabinet, he had no hesitation in saying that so far from being
liable to the charge of inconsistency for the support he gave to
the proposition for which he now contended, the Noble Lord
would be guilty of no inconsistency whatever in supporting the
measure if it went twice as far—if; in fact, it went so far as to
put down the Protestant Establishment altogether.—( Cries of
" Hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Now, with regard to the
Charge of dissimulation which it was alleged he had brought
against the Noble Lord. How, he asked, could such a charge
arise—how could he have said that the Noble Lord had been
guilty of dissimulation—when the Noble Lord made a decla-
ration in his place in that House which was interpreted out of
doors, especially in Ireland, as amounting to the death-blow
of the Established Church in that country? He now came
to the charge of inconsistency, which was the charge which
be had brought against the Noble Lord: On a former occa-
sion he read a passage from a speech made by the Noble Lord
in 1833, in which the Noble Lord was represented to have
said, " Others might be for revolution, but he was for peace.
This country could not be revolutionised year after year. If
le did quarrel with the House of Lords, he would quarrel
aboutabo something worth quarrelling for." The object then was
appropriation of 120,0001., out of the Perpetuity Fund;
but the Noble Lord said that this sum was so" insignificant," and
4 misunderstanding with the Lords would be so " dangerous,"
that he would not embark in such a quarrel upon grounds so
trivial. The Noble Lord held the same sentiments when the
100,000,000/, were granted for the relief of the Irish Clergy
but now, for the sake of a bare abstract principle, as to whe-
ther 50,0001. should be wrung from the Church of Ireland or
not, the Noble Lord was willing to run the risk which he de-
precated and resisted in 1833, when he said, " Others may be
for revolution, but I am for peace."—
position benches. (Cheers from the Op_
Lord used
) But on a more recent occasion the Noble
an argument which was wholly inconsistent
with the course which he now took. He alluded to the de-
claration which he made within the last fortnight, when
the Established Church Bill was brought before the House
for the third reading. It had been urged upon the Noble
Lord that some items should be deducted from the incomes of
the Bishops that 5,000/. should be taken from the see of
Canterbury, and 3,000/. or 4.000/. rom the of er
Bishops. The items alluded
tof amountedincomes altogether to
25,000/., half the sum in respect of which this discussion had
arisen and what was the Noble Lord's declaration ? Why,
the said he would not for such a sum as 95,000/. risk the
?success of the measure, or because of it, run the hazard
of preventing it from being carried with the assent of the
heads of the Church. To be consistent the Noble Lord
should act on the same principle in the present case,
especially as the whole matter in dispute was only 50,0001.
It was impossible to reconcile the principle on which the
Noble Lord had acted in the one case with that which he
theadopted in the other ; and surely when he gave way to insure
success of the Established Church Bill, he was bound to
yield in the present case rather than risk the whole of his
thesure, and thereby endanger the peace and tranquillity of
shatut',l_l'aPPY country to which it related. He had been told
one; the sttruggles in which they were engaged was a hopeless
it foril entirely agreed with his Right Hon. Friend the
st might bTamworth that they should it, hopeless as
position
cheering,)
with manliness, and oppose it to the last.—(op-
. heering.) It was a monstrous fallacy to suppose that
this would be a final measure. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
berr Tipperary had said that if they could bring peace for
Ireland by the sacrifice of a million the purchase would be a
jeahtneaeps orz, but that such a notion was ridiculous. So he (Sir
Graham) said now. Within the lastdfewdays. the
Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny
thisha written in a
letter, addressed by him to the People Country, the
following sentiments :. Would outranquillize Ireland fol-
low up this plan— give the glebeys to the value
hof 3001. per
annum, to the pastors of the great andsuovehrw elming ma-
jority of the people of these parishes." tyehna
had
it
heard,had at
thatlas t
transpired, after all the disclaimers which the
the object was to get endowments for tl e
Church, to transfer the glebes of the Roman Protestant
CCI
ear tgl iyo. l
ti
uc
the Roman Catholic Priests._ the
cheering from the Op-
position benches.) lie wished the people of England to un-
erstand this.--( Renewed cheers.) He said let the people of
this Country, whether Protestants or Dissenters--let the Vo-
luntaries of Scotland—understand that the question was not
ane of Protestant spoliation, but of Roman Catholic endow-
Ment-that it was whether they should take from the Ministers
Fof the established religion the fair lands they possessed, and
.i,voc.them to the Ministers of a religion for the overthrow of
%,,en.idh their forefathers had bled, and which, whether in the
'llll. or
Ton the scaffold, they rejoiced and gloried in denounc-
' _R. ( he 'light Hon. Baronet resumed his seat amidst loud
cheers)
Mr. S HEIL The Right Hon. Baronet, while speaking of
uttNi_ee.uvv.tes.a,s,_tle, The Right
by cries of ~ Triennial Parlia-
He did not seem to know the purport of the intima-
;es I can explain it to him. The new Member, who is
triennialented as a Conservatise, pledged himself to vote for
Parliaments.—(Cheers.) His opponent declined to
result (
give any pledge, and had voted against the Reform Bill. The
:. . 0 the Newcastle contest affords no ground of triumph ;
it on the hustings of Newcastle that the flag of trium-
linve Toryism ought to be planted. The Right Hon. Baronet
ouu.
~.1.-ted to the state of feeling in CumberlaUd. I know little
i'saui oberland, except from the impression produced there in which y the Right Hon. Baronet himself; and the applauses
, _ attended a very remarkable speech of his, appear to me
count
furnish evidence of the state of popular feeling in that
i'L..ll,tY• The bight Hon. Baronet on that occasion called
szictf.:beSuucaturelett once-valued friend," but added that he
" a recreant Whig."—( Loud cheers.) The
thegtst Hon. Baronet also expressed himself favourable to
insisptractice of extorting pledges, and advised the re )r.l to
Ref uPon Lords Lowther giving a pledge in favour of
0 . orrsh____(
Hnd continued cheers.) These are the
~.,nly indications which I have of the state of public feeling in
"other] but
, „ an d, this appears to me to be sufficiet o form
ti tolerably correct estimate of that county. ''het Right
g• Baronet is in one particular entitled to my thanks ;
qabl°" not coincide with the Bishop of Exeter in his formi-
eh
4rge imputation. He relieves us, en the contrary, from the
ii of perjury. It has been the good fortune of the Right
,'ll,B x
ownoent,erßuarn net to take a very different view from the Bishop of
points of theory and practice ; in practice so far as
't conduct, or even so far as the conduct of Roman Ca-
lifics is concerned. In 1830, the Right Hon. Baronet gave
)""ee of a motion denouncing the Bishop for holding a living,
ei.
l Stanhope, I think, in dam—( Hear, hear)—and now
Lut,! rePudiates, as unchristicommen
an, that charitable ecclesiastic's im-
4tion of perjury cast upon his Roman Catholic fellow-sub-
"`""t'. This does him credit. With respect to the Catholic
oath,i , ldo assure the Right Hon. Baronet, that as far as lam
ILlitvidually concerned, I have no intention to subvert the
hi"urell, I wish to curtail it—l wish to reduce it to the di-
h-ens of the Church of Scotland—_l wish to proportion the
ietraYinent to the service performed ; where there are no Pro-
astar.ts I see no pretence for paying a clergyman the exurbi-
i`latlstlin of three hundred pounds a-year. The Right lion.
t?",n.eet adverted to the speech of the Member for Tamworth,
la wmlithat Right flon. Gentleman declared
talctht if the pit-
"of the Church must at last be shaken, he, ast, would
itiro;lttieuoun.cur in their concussion, nor be accessory to their Pros-
Sir, I do rit desifeto overthrow the pillars of the
...ellurch--I wish to take down the golden dome, in
under
rr
itsto rPtilrent by its fall from burying all beneath it d
Is ns•----(" hear hear," and loud cheering.) Telifeerrleldi,,ethut
t—hl'euulirble Baronet th Member for Cumberland r subject of education, and declared that he was
Rive
edu-
willing to
out of the Consolidated Fund 50,000/. a-year for the
is evl4.',lcn, under the Commission, of the Irish people. H
iiliii.gto tax England with this sum. He would mulct the
)3' ngl'sh People, and spare the superfluities of the Irish Church.
ut in a
he , . ran so religious, it seems to me extraordinary that
of 1! willg to assent to what ous people call the mutilation
thistce word of God._( Hear, hear.) It is remarkable thatf
oe. Proposition has come from the Tories ; and the silence o
Nv!il.T..aitle of their Irish friends is not less deserving of notice.
for
i3r is the Recorder of Dublin ? Where is the Member
sit and" ? What is become of the Member for the Univer-
weY of Dublin ?--( Cheers.) Formerly, when the Tories
GoIT to Office, and confirmed the mutilation of the word of
o there were reasons, substantial ones, for silence ; but
v,
r_u
.s when their consciences are emancipated, and their inte-
o"osut :ere no longer concerned, will they stand up and dc-
e:.
~t_he application of so large a sum to be given from the
(Lo'ultlediated Fund for the suppression of the Scriptures.— (Loud 'leers.) There is one point snore in the speech of the
r for Cumberland to which I desire for an instapt to

advert. He charges the Member for Kilkenny with having-
; intimated a wish that glebe lands should be given to the Ca-
: tholic clergy. I wish that the Rig:it Hon. Baronet would tell
us whether or not he conceives that a provision should be
made for the Catholic clergy. They repudiate it but does
the Right Hon. Baronet desire to use any gentle violence to
induce their compliance on this subject Cheers.) I know
that in common conversation the Tories constantly lament
that in 1825 the terms proposed to Lord Liverpool, including
a provision, were not accepted. To this day, the Tories are
fond of reverting to this proposition. But why in this House
do they never openly refer to it ? Why is the Member for
T. amworth, why is the Member Lancashire significantly
silent on this point ? Will they this night tell us their minds
on the question ?—( Hear, hear.) No, Sir: they are afraid
to awaken the religious prejudices of the English people.
But how disingenuous it is on the part of the Member for Cum-
berland, when he suppresses his own opinion, to avail himself
of a paragraph in a letter of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny
in order to ignite with it the inflammable feelings of the Eng-
lish people ? This incendiary expedient is scarcely worthy of
him. I turn from the speech of the Hon. Member for Cum-
berland. In the opening of this night's debate, the question
of privilege was glanced at. lam glad that on mere matter
of form the debate has not turned ; but I am also glad that
the great prerogatives of the people have been recalled to
the public recollection. The time may not be distant when
the redress of grievances must precede the supply of the exi-
gences of the Crown. But although privilege is put aside, let not
dignity be forgotten. For once, let us follow the example of
the Lords. They rejected the amended Municipal Reform
Bill, because it was inconsistent with their House to recede
from the ground which they had deliberately taken ; and shall
we, after having passed a resolution declaratory of the policy
by which Ireland must be for the future governed—after
having with that resolution annihilated and created a cabinet
—after having embodied the principle of that resolution in two
successive Bills, in two successive Sessions—shall we, I say,
accept a Bill founded on a principle diametrically the reverse
of that thus solemnly and repeatedly adopted, and without
which we have proclaimed the tranquillity of Ireland to be
hopeless ?—( Cheers. ) What will be the consequence of ac-
cepting the measure of the Lords ? The Ministers must re-
sign, and the Irish Municipal Reform Bill, carried by a
majority of 86, to which the House is pledged, is lost.
The Lords must, if they wish to extend their Conservative
habits to their characters, adhere to their destructive Bill.—
(Laughter.) There is only one man who could, without
any damage to his character, convert his Alien Act into
a Bill for the naturalisation of the Irish people ; his asso-
ciates, although they have availed themselves of his talents
could not venture to act in conformity with his ethics. It may
be said that the settlement of the tithe question is of para-
mount importance to every other. True ; but what reason-
able man can regard the measure of the Lords as the settle-
ment of the question? The aliens—the seven millions of
aliens and of perjurers—will scarcely be reconciled to this
measure by the share which Lord Lyndhurst and the Bishop of
Exeter have had in its production. The conjunction of this
honest lawyer and of this Christian ecclesiastic, is not a little
curious.—(Hear.) I remember a striking speech against
Catholic Emancipation, made by Sir John Copley as Master
of the Rolls, which Mr. Canning more than intimated was
derived from a notorious pamphlet of the day. Mr. Canning
exclaimed—
" Dear Tom, this brown jug which foams with mild ale,
Out of which I now drink to sweet Kate of the vale,
Was once Toby Phillpotts—."
(Loud laughter.) Is it not an odd coincidence that Copley
and Phillpotts—the one metamorphosed into my Lord Lynd-
hurst, and the other into the Most Rev. Father in God the

Lord Bishop of Exeter—should be still politically associated—
and that the former should denounce us as aliens, and the lat-
ter should involve a whole nation in one comprehensive and
flagitious imputation ? Aliens and perjurers Is this the
Conservative process of conciliation, and is it thus that those
passions are to be assuaged which disturb the peace and arrest
the prosperity of our unfortunate country ?—(Long and con-
tinued cheers.) This Bill a settlement of the question ! It
will be repudiated with utter scorn by the Irish people, who
will regard it as an expedient to turn out the Ministry, to
expel a Lord Lieutenant who has won the affections of the
country, and to restore the Orange faction to the plenitude
of its domination at the Castle. Does any moderate Con-
servative conceive that even if this project could be effected,
it would be serviceable to the country ? What can be more
prejudicial to Ireland than these sudden transfers of power,
attended with ferocious exultation on one side, and black
vindictive resentment on the other ? The Green flag to-
day—to-morrow the Orange—the next the Green flag, with
a darker and deeper dye, again. Is this a state of things
to be desired ? It may be said by a Conservative, that since
a triumph must be given, it is better that Orangeism should
be selected for the preference. This suggestion might be
plausible, if there was the least chance of durability in a
Conservative Government. But who is there that looks one
yard before him in this fog of prejudice and passion by which
we are surrounded—who is there that looks beyond to-day
and has a political to-morrow, who can believe that it is pos-
sible that the Conservative policy with respect to the Irish
Church can be long maintained ? lam sure that the Hon.
Member for Tamworth does not think so. His speech to-
night was full of intimations of despair. Why did he say that
if a blow must be struck, it should not be struck by him ? Why
did he talk of the prostration of those pillars which he declared
that he for one would not contribute to overthrow ? What
did his speech mean, but an announcement that he would not
play upon this question the same part which upon the Catholic
he had been compelled to perform ; that he would leave it to
others to do that which he saw was inevitable ; that he had
already made sufficient sacrifices, and would not go through
martyrdom again.—( Hear, hear.) Let us throw aside all
abstractions, and consider not merely the merits of this ques-
tion, but the relation in which we stand towards each other,
what are our comparative resources, and on whose side the
victory will, in all likelihood, ultimately be. Forgive me if I
put so abrupt a question as this :—Who are you, and who are
we ? My answer to the first question shall be fair, and
you will permit me, in answering the second question, to
be frank.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Do not imagine that I
mean to undervalue the importance of the Conservative party.
I am willing to take you at your own price, which is rather
a high standard of appreciation. You say that you have the
aristocracy, the gentry, the clergy, the army, the magistracy,
and the House of Lords. You have not all the House of
Lords ; you have not the Cavendishes, nor the Russells ; no,
nor the Stanleys, in the House of Lords.—( Loud cheers.)
Some of you say that you have the King, and that Windsor is
only an appurtenance to Apsley-house. Ido not agree in this
opinion, for I remember that the Duke of Clarence, on the
23d of Febi-uary, 1829, turned to the bench of bishops, and
asked them whether they would dare to call themselves the
ministers of peace if they contributed to civil war in Ireland?
—( Loud cheers.) This speech I beg respectfully to recom-
mend to the episcopal meditations of Dr. Phillpotts, and I
trust that one of the dignitaries of the Church will derive
advantage from the truly Christian sentiments expressed by
the illustrious personage who is now its head.—(llear, hear.)
Having told you who you arc, I proceed to communicate
some information to you of which you may stand in need, and
to tell ,;ou who we are. But it is better that before I tell
you who we arc, I should first tell you what we are. In
1793 we were not half in number what we now are; we had
no intelligen2e, no education, no concert, no property; and
yet even then we extorted from England the elective fran-
chise. England put into a hand which she did not know to
be gigantic a weapon from the armoury of the Constitution,
with which from crest to centre Toryism bas been cloven.—
( Cheers.) I spring with a single bound over an interval of
forty-three years, and hurry to the 13th of April, 1829. On
that day the great charter of Irish liberty was ratified, and the
King uttered those words of power, Lc Roi le vent. No, he
did not use it, nor you did not use it, nor the Lords, nor the
gentry, nor the clergy, nor the army, nor the magistracy ; but
we were resolved upon it, and I tell you that to the question
before the House we bring the same unconquerable will, and
the same indomitable determination—( Loud cheers)—and that

delay this question as you may, excite the fanaticism of Eng-
land as you may ; employ this question to get into Downing-
street as you may, still you must yield at last, and to Ireland,
at last, justice shall be done.—( Immense cheering.) I know that
you arc in the habit of speaking, and of writing, with derision,
upon the phrase, " Justice to Ireland." It is quite natural that
you should do so. At Madrid they laughed at justice to the
Creole. At the Hague they laughed at justice to Belgium.
There is an exceedingly good picture by Copley in the Na-
tional Gallery of the death of Chatham, and I remember that

on the morning on which I read the alien speech, I was struck
by that picture, and while I looked upon the fine representa-
tion of the expiring statesman, some of the most remarkable
words which he had ever uttered came back to my recollec-
tion—" Do justice to America; do it to-night—do it before
you sleep."—( Loud cheers.) Alas ! Sir, there were men mad
enough to laugh at that admonition, and how can I expect,
when my feeble voice is raised to implore you to do justice to
Ireland, that you should not treat that melancholy adjuration
with the same derision ?—(Loud cheering.) But it may be
said that I am all this while using the language of vaunt, and
that mere vaunt ought to be treated with disregard. lam
willing to go into details, and to act like him who took the
herald of the evening through his camp, showed him the ex-
tent, the discipline, the organization of his force, exhibited
every legion in its panoply, and then sent back the herald to
his antagonist and offered battle. But mistake me not. We
do not mean to give you an opportunity of re-enacting the
scenes upon the Boyne and at Aughrim again. Our power is
a moral one. Our field of combat shall be on this floor, and
here, where we have again and again discomfited you, again we
shall put you to the rout. You put Ireland through a process
unexampled in the history of confiscation. If I may be per-
mitted to play upon a word, I should say that the history of
Irish Protestantism was to be found in Rapin. You not only
took away all we had, but you prevented us from acquiring
anything. It was not until 1782 that a Roman Catholic could
purchase an estate. But since that time our progress in ten i-
torial acquisition has been great, and, as is obvious, must every
day increase.—( Hear, hear.) But I am free to admit that
the bulk of fee-simple property is Protestant. I stop not to
ask bow much of it is in mortgage to Roman Catholics. - My
case is this, that the mass of property to which political influ-
ence is an incident is in the hands of the middle classes. Be-
fore the Reform Bill, the great Protestant proprietors nomi-
nated to boroughs, and thus political influence was attached to
their estates. But a complete transfer of this influence has
taken place to the body of the inhabitants of towns sending
Members to Parlirment. I will give you the ocular proof of
the extent and
o charcacter of the change which has taken place.
Look at the HBaronet the
the Member for the Uni-
versity of Oxford. He was once the Member for Dundalk,—.
(Laughter.) You will scarce believe it, but it is the fact, and
the House perceives that be does not dispute it. My Lord
Roden selected a gentleman eminently qualified to represent
him and his religious feelings and pious addictions in the
House. It is not to be presumed that any sublunary induce-
ments were applied by the Hon. Baronet to the Noble