The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

tries on the other ride of the Charnel, namely, of the
repeated voyages of steam-vessels between this country
end America, and also the steamboat communication
between the United States and Canada through the lakes.
He did not mean to impute to Mr. Porter any other
design in making these representations than that which
led an individual, who was an enthusiast in cry cause,
to hazard extraordinary assertions in support of it.—
(Hear, hoar.) hitch had been said with regard to the
indirect trade. That trade consisted only of fragments
of voyages. For example, a vessel which was on its
way to Odessa would stop at Turkey and then proceed
on its course. Such voyages acre not entire trane-
actions —they were only incidental to the greater
ones. It was said that by opening this trade they
would obtain a share in a future trade. In point of fact
they were promised a share of that of which they had
now the entirety.—(Hear.) If the Bill were passed, the
vessels of this country would, by the Ist of January
next, be brought into immediate competition with those
of every other country in the world, and he did not know
how it was possible by that period to obtain equivalent
advantages. He fully admitted the difficulties which
surrounded the case as regarded the colonies, and that
was the only question which had caused him the least
hesitation on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It teas, how-
ever, admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that the
grievance of Canada might be redressed by other means
than the repeal of the navigation•laws.—(Hear.) Look-
ing at the question as one which involved free trade, the
&fences of the country, and therefore its very existence,
he could not be a party to the repeal of the navigation-
laws; and he roust, therefore, support the amendment of
his Noble Friend.

Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said he wished
it to be understood that in what he had stated respecting
Mr. Cardwell he bad not the slightest wish to assail that
respectable gentleman.—(hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord was proceeding to give a detail of circum-
stances explanatory of what he had referred to, when
Earl GREY reminded the Noble and Learned Lord
that ho had risen simply in explanation.
Lord BROUGHAM said that was true; but when a
gentleman was blamed for misrepresenting another 'he
was allowed a large latitude in explanation. The Noble
and Learned Lord then gave a detail of the circum-
stances attending the election of Mr. Cardwell for Liver-
pool, as justifying him in the extent he had gone in the
observations ho bad made respecting that gentleman.
He had thought it right, he added, to say so much in
explanation of the matter, on the ground that as it was
right " to let well alone," it was sometimes right to leave
ill alone, for fear it should be made worse.—(Laughter.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE and several Peers rose at the
same time, but being loudly called for the latter gave
way, and his Lordship proceeded. They were not to
look on the question as one standing by itself, but rather
as one connected with the defences of the country, and
they should not give it their support unless they could
satisfy themselves that the repeal of the navigation-
laws would not endanger the naval supremacy of the
country.—(Bear, hear.) The Noble Lord here referred
to a statement which he said had been made, that five
per cent. of the whole number of men in the royal navy
were taken from the merchant service; but ho found that
assertion had been completely refuted, and that there
was not less than one-half supplied from the mercantile
marine to the royal navy; and be would here observe
that there was no possibility of denying the argument
that the supremacy of the naval power was mixed up
with the upholding of the mercantile navy.
—(Hear, hear.) The real and essential question
which they had to deal with was, whether in repeal-
ing these laws they
,were withdrawing that support
from those who upheld the naval system of the country,
to which they were entitled, and which it was necessary
they shoutd have. There was some difficulty in dealing
with the question. If they referred to the evidence on
the subject, they found it was full of the most conflicting
statements.—(fiear, hear.) It was of importance to see
the light in which the question was viewed by foreign
countries. It appeared that the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) had
directed the Ministers of this country to make inquiries
of foreign powers, so as to ascertain the feeling that ex-
isted on the subject. First, as regarded Belgium, they
found it was admitted by that country that no Belgian
vessel could compete with British. With regard to
America, there was no reasonable doubt of our ships
being able to compete with those of that country. It
was unquestionable that on almost every item, except
that of timber, the American shipbuilder had to pay
dearer than the English shipbuilder; and even
the timber itself was only obtainable cheaper in
some of the American ports. Another important fact
with regard to the northern countries of Europe was
this, that though they had the power of building vessels
much cheaper than us, the greater part of those built
in Sweden and Norway were built expressly for the
timber trade, and were unfit for anything else. On
other questions precisely the same assurances of the
impossibility of our competing with foreign nations had
been made; and they had uniformly received a complete
falsification. At one time the linen trade of Ireland
was protected and encouraged by bounties ; when these
bounties, were removed nothing less than ruin to the
trade was anticipated ; but since that time the flax-
growing and linen-manufacturiug districts of Ireland
had been among the most prosperous. Again, when the
bounty was taken off the export of what were called
long wools, it was said the trade would be thrown en-
tirely into the hands of foreigners ; but notwithstaud-
ing the alteration our own trade had gone on increasing.
In 1824 the same predictions were made in refer-
ence to the silk manufacturer ; it was said that by ad-
mitting French silks we should completely destroy our
own trade, and that it was impossible for our manufac-
turers to compete successfully with those of France.
What had beets the result? In 1823, the year before
the change, the raw silk imported into this country for
consumption was only about 2,400,0001b5., while in 1847
it was 41 millions. The value of the silk manufactures
actually exported from this country was, in 1832,
529,0002 declared value; while in 1847, notwithstanding
a great decrease in the value of the article, it was
948,0001. Finding that such had been the result of all
these gloomy predictions, their Lordships would be
justified in disregarding them, if not in treating them as
absolutely false.—(lfear, hear.) When they heard
strong opinions expressed by the witnesses before the
Committees, they were justified in looking at the cha-
racter and occups tion of those witnesses, and in some cases
it would appear their evidence was not quite so conclu-
sive as might he supposed. A Mr. Coker, a merchant
of Liverpool, had been examined before their Lordships'
Committee with respect to competition between this
country and America; and he said, "I consider that the
Americans, taking them as a people, are far superior to
Englishmen."—(Hear, hear.) Not content with this, he
added that emigrants from ttiis country, transferred to
the American soil, improved in bodily condition.—
(Laughter.) He (Lord Wharncliffe) absolutely rejected
this assertion; he believed no such thing. If there was
one feature in the question more important than an-
other, it was the effect of the reciprocity treaties.
The Noble Lord having read a statement of the amount
of British tonnage in the ten years previous to the
reciprocity treaties, and ten years subsequently, said
it was quite clear that whatever effect the navigation-
laws might have had before those treaties were con-
cluded, the same causes would have produced the
same effect after they were concluded. There had
been a constant and gradual increase in the navigation
of this country; and the fair presumption was, that
if they relaxed the system still further, they would reap
still further advantages from it. They were not only
justified, but called upon, by every feeling of justice and
policy, to remove unnecessary restrictions, and upon that
ground he supported this Bill, The point in it on which
he felt the greatest difficulty was the lelh clause, em-
powering her Majesty to restrict the privilege of foreign
ships in certain cases. He saw an objection to that
course, and thought that an easier ono might be adopted;
but he did not on that account consider himself justified
in opposing the Bill. Looking to the dispatch of Lord
Palmerston of December 22, in the papers laid before
them, he took it fur granted that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would see that in relaxing the navigation-laws for
the benefit of foreign shipping the same advantages
would be secured to this country. Although not satis-
fied with the prospective alteration in the 10th clause,
yet, with the confidence he felt in the intention with
which it had been inserted, he should, at this stage, give
his support to the Bill. He again entreated their Lord-
ships to watch narrowly all the bearings of the proposi-
tion which by this stage of the Bill they were now called
on to affirm; and whilst they regarded it as a great ex-
perimental measure, the necessity for which he was not
prepared to say could be altogether disproved, to re-
member that it was one in the peculiar operation of
which the welfare and stability of British interests of the
most extensive and important character were deeply in.
volved. For the reason, however, he had assigned, he
felt himself bound to vote for the secondreading.—(Cries
of " Question.")
Tho Marquis of LONDONDERRY regarding this Bill
as one of the most dangerous experiments ever intro-
duced into the House, he had risen to give it his strum-
oils opposition.
Earl GREY said, that in rising to enforce upon the
House, to the best of his ability, the importance of the
measure which was now before it, he would endeavour,
as briefly as he could, to set before their Lordships the
grounds on which this measure was founded.—(Hear.)
He must acknowledge that his own confidence in the
soundness of these principles, and in the merits of the
Bill now submitted to the judgment of their Lordships,
had been greatly increased by the whole text of this
evening's debate. For, notwithstanding the great array
of talent which had been marshalled against this mea-
sure by its opponents, and the ability displayed in
resisting the motion, no one who had carefully
listened to the speeches which had been delivered by
Noble Lords in opposition to the Bill could have failed
to perceive how large a proportion of the matter they
comprised had been utterly irrelevant to the main quese
tion that had been submitted for their Lordship's consi-
deration, and how much of the remainder of them had
been singularly vague, and wanting in precision and di-
rectness of statement.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships from
one Noble Speaker had heard a disquisition on the
present aspect of foreign affairs, and the management
of our foreign relations, whilst from a Noble and
Learned Lord they had heard an eloquent statement
of the most secret counsels that must have guided the
present Republican Government of France in the policy
it had pursued towards Italy.—(A laugh, and cries of
e Hear.") The Noble and Learned Lord had talked as
if the real designs of the Republic and its President in
dispatching an army thither had been distinctly stated
to him- tie (Earl Grey) was bound to suppose that
this must have been the case from the unhesitating
which the Noble and Learned Lord had endea-
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