The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-26 00:00:00

110 USE OF COMMONS, Jux,i- 23.

Mr. HUNT presented three petitions for the repeal of
the Corn Laws—one from the inhabitants of Oldham, ano-
ther from Blackburn, and a third from the working classes
of the metropolis.
Sir J. BRYDGES said, that the repeal of the Corn
Laws would lead to a rise in the price of corn.
Colonel TORRENS replied, that such could not be the
impression of the land-owners generally, or they would
have called for the measure, instead of strenuously op-
posing it as they load always done hitherto.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, be should never cease to press
upon the legislature the policy of repealing all restrictions
on a free trade in corn.

Mr. LEADER observed, that as Ireland had nothing
but her agriculture to depend on, the abolition of the Corn
Laws must be ruinous to her interests.

Mr. WYSE said, he would undertake to prove that
no injury whatever would accrue to Ireland from their
repeal.
Mr. HUNT presented another petition from the la-
bouring poor of a parish in Lincoln, praying for a repeal
of all taxes that affected the necessaries of life. In so
doing, the Hon. Gentleman took occasion to observe that he
should have opposed the recent vote of an allowance to
her Majesty, bad he been present when it was granted,
on the ground that the people could not afford to have
their resources lavished with such extravagance. He
also presented a petition from the working classes of
the Bethnal Union in favour of annual Parliaments, uni-
versal suffrage, and vote by ballet, including a prayer for
the liberty of the press.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from certain kelp-
manufactures in the west of Ireland, complaining of grievous
distress in consequence of the reduction of the duty on ba-
rilla, and praying for legislative relief. The Hon. Member
confirmed the statement of the petitioners, and observed
that it would be absolutely necessary for Parliament to give
some encouragement to this manufacture, which was their
only means of subsistence, or the inevitable consequence
must be that the inhabitants of that part of Ireland would
be thrown again on English charity
next year, as, unfor-
tunately,
ss o n
necessary the
t o House
they had already been during the greater part of
tile. present. The Hon. and Learned Member went on
to
pro-
meet
the
the
necessityenormous
of
d em
as onndise
upon
for the poor in Ireland, to enable them to produce
whi:pr%e.s
them for the support of two churches, and the heavy
im-
posts of grand jury assessments. It was a conviction of
the
necessity of some measure for the relief of Ireland, and
a knowledge of the fact that nothing had been done, which
produced the petition presented a few evenings ago by the
Hon. Alember of Armagh, for a repeal of the Union, and
the strong language used in the petition from Cork on the
same subject. Indeed, if some steps were not speedily
taken to improve the condition of the people of that country,
it would be impossible to prevent similar petitions from all
parts of Ireland.
Colonel TORRENS said that the time was now arrived
when a philosophical inquiry should be instituted into the
causes svhich made Ireland stand still or rather go back-
ward, when all other nations were improving. The Hon.
and Gallant Member, iu alluding to same of time causes of
the depressed condi ion of Ireland, mentioned the change
in the currency, and the withdrawing of its issues by time
Bank of Ireland, which had the effect of snaking a differ-
ence of 20 per cent. in the exchange against Ireland.
This was the result of a rash application of principles,
sound in themselves, but which, from the manner of their
application, only aggravated the evils they Were intended
to remedy. He hoped, however, that under the present
Government some measures would be adopted to relieve
that country by giving employment to the people in the
draining of morasses, and by encouraging a well-regulate:
system of emigration.
Mr. GRATTAN thought it was wrong to impute the
present condition of the people of Ireland to a transition
from one state of currency to another. We had riot on

record any perisd when the condition of the peasantry of
Ireland was in any better condition. They were always
distressed from the time of the conquest to the presents
What Ireland wanted was a resident gentry, who were
willing to discharge the duties of magistrates and grand
jurors. It wanted that the capital raised in Ireland should
be spent there. As to emigration, he hoped Parliament
would not interfere with it. Any interference of Parlia-
ment would only serve to check it.
Sir J. BRYDGES expressed a hope that some modified
system of poor laws might be introduced into Ireland.
Until that was done, we most have a large portion of its
population more or less dependent on the charity of this
country.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that one great cause of the dis-
tressed state of the people of Ireland was, that 15 out of
of its landed proprietors spent their incomes out of the
country. Ireland paid 7,000,0001. of money per annum
in this way. It was not a want of capital that affected
Ireland. He would undertake to raise a half million
in Dublin in forty-eight hours, on good security ; and
he would undertake to raise a million in a fortnight,
to embark in any speculation which had a fair pros-
pect of success. Ireland wanted that encouragement
which could he given only by a resident landed pro-
prietary ; but not only had she to contend against an ex-
tensive system of absenteeism, but her difficulties were in-
creased in that way by taking from her most of her public
offices. The Board of Excise anti Stamps, and other
public establishments, down even to the station at Cove,
were all removed, or in the course of removal. It was
not, then, the transition which was talked of that caused
this distress. The only transition that he saw was a trap-
' sition from bad to worse, which was going on from siay to
day. The Hon. and Gallant Officer (Colonel Torrens)
spoke of his hopes of some measures of relief from a liberal
Government. He (Mr. O'Connell) saw nothing in the '
acts of Government to encourage such hope. They had
done nothing since they came into power but what tended
to aggravate the evils already in existence. Party feeling
and partisanship were now as great as ever in Ireland.—
Blood had been shed on its soil, and no redress was oh-
taintal ; faction was going on, and he would say that the
measures taken by Government tended rather to increase
than diminish its rancour. He had no wish to weaken Of
embarrass Government, but his duty compelled him to state
what he felt. What would Englishmen think of a systeM
under which a Grand Jury assembled at dinner with opened
doors should give such a toast as that of " Our feet on the
necks of the Papists," in cold blood, and the healths of
" The yeomanry of Newtownbarry." He spoke of the
Grand Jury of Wexford. The Government took credit
for attempting to put down Orange processions. Had they
done so? He had a letter in his pocket which spoke of 4
large Orange procession in Enniskillen a few days ago.--:
How did this square with the efforts of Government?
Government also called out the yeomen ; that was another
act of unwise policy, which added to the discontent already
sufficiently excited by other acts equally impolitic. The
people were now struggling with famine and disease, to
which were to be added that discontent which they Mud
feel when they knew that nothing was done for their re'
lief, or for a change of the system of which they had se
i
much cause to complain. He had been asked by some 01
the Catholic clergy to address the people of Ireland ; but
what could he promise them to allay their discontent ? 118
wished Government would do something. Let them strike
off partisans from the magistracy and the yeamanrf
throughout the country. That of itself would go a great
way to restore peace.
Mr. CRAAIPTON would not follow his Hon. and
Learned friend (Mr. O'Connell) into his remarks, but he
A
must protest against such high-drawn and high-coloured
statements as to the condition of Ireland. He did not deli
that distress existed in Ireland, but he was happy to 6"t
that in many of the districts it was much abated, and the.
a prospect existed that it would in a short time be re.
moved. His Hon. and Learned Friend in his commen
on the conduct of Government hail not been able to ,aw
one proof that it had acted otherwise than with 4012:
tiality. Government had issued proclamations to pot dn
Orange processions. Those proclamations had, he admit
not been attended to in every case, but an inquiry was Oa
going on for the purpose of ascertaining what officers 0",
privates of yeomanry corps had taken a part in those pr°a
cessions, and every officer or private who should be fontio
to have taken any part in them would be dismissed ftni!,e
the corps to which they belonged.—(Hear, hear.)
could not sit still and hear charges brought against tu,
present Government, which had done more for Ireland
than any Government that had preceded it.
eSnitr
wouldlt . n BATESONot beh givenoped
toemigration
thatany farther
from lolu
mThe emigration that was going on was an emigration 0,,
the most useful and industrious part of the populatiory
whilst the least useful and most discontented remained.
He hoped that kind of emigration would cease. He hap"-
Government would do touch for Ireland ; and that the'
would consider that it wanted a reform in many thing
besides a reform in the representation.
After a few words from (we believe) Mr. LEE, be
The Marquis of CHANDOS asked whether it was t (
intention of Government to go on with the registratioo °
Arms Bill.
encourage
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER refs,
that it was to he brought forward with some modificati°l::
Sir R. BATESON asked when would the Irish 'et'
mates be brought forward.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
were in preparation, and would be ready in the course 0'
short time.
The petition was brought up an red.
Mr. HUNT said the Hon. Memdbera for Kerry did flit
know what he- could promise to the people of Ireland• di
appeared to him (Mr. Hunt) that the Hon. and Leer b,
Gentleman had already promised them a little too triufbil
He had promised them all manner of good things frora
expected repeal of the Union,—that it would turn bar,,,"11
heaths into green fields and soon. He did not know Wwijj
more the lion. Member could promise them ; but it W°uo
probably have been much better for the country if he L
not promised them so much.
Sir J. DOYLE corroborated the statement respecf6flog
the distressed condition of Ireland made by the
Member for Kerry.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
BELGIUM AND PORTUGAL.
Upon the motion that the above-mentioned petition
printed being put, t"°l
The Marquis of CHANDOS said he would takee
opportunity of putting some questions to the Noble 1',4
opposite on a subject of great importance. He ohletveli
in the report of the speech which the King of the Frevi
had just addressed to the French Chambers, the folio/11,0
' remarkable passage :—" The fortresses raised to Wl:a,
France, and not to protect Belgium, will be demolish d
He wished to know whether that passage really fore,
part of the French King's speech ; and whether, 0,4
there stated, there existed any intention on the part 0' t
French Government to dismantle the whole or nit,'"
those fortresses ? lie also desired to be informed wheirs
the British Government had acceded to any such P
position ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saia,tsi
though it would have been more regular if the iscoie
Marquis had asked hiS questions on the motion that .0;
Speaker leave the chair, previous to the House resols,s
into a Committee of Supply, he had no objection to ;10%j!
them at the present moment. In doing so, however'ist
would, perhaps, be necessary fur him to address the II'?
a little more at length than he need du if he nierel got
the Noble Marquis direct and immediate answers 0411,
questions which had been put. lie thought that it
be admitted on all bands that fortresses could not "'lasi
value as a defence to any country, unless that countrY„less
possessed the power of garrisoning them properly. ,t 4
it was impossible, in the present condition of the itirgirpor
Belgium, to expect that that State could afford the teri
mous number of men which would be required pray
to garrison the fortresses. By the treaty of 1815, it tl't
provided that these fortresses should be garrisoned bkpt'
troops of different countries ; but then the questia°so
turally arose, whether it would be of advantage tfcir
power to keep up so large a number of fortresses (Ivo'
could inform the Noble Marquis that the w:ole Cf
0,11 d(
were net to 1;e demolished) with a view toprotectioaP. yet
unless they vrere properly garrisoned, they would, in (fils'r
war, always be in danger of suddenly falling into tl'epe'',
session of the enemy. Instead, therefore, of being " t
tection against France, they: would become, in the eletrie°;
war with that Power, a basis of her operations. Tin°'se•
being the state of the case, it did not, during the an", or,
the negociations which had taken place on this subjecti,
tt
pear so important, as it had formerly been cousitlerersi,44
keep up the whole line of for tresses ; and it was diet() (II
true enough, that an agreement had been entered ih", s
dismantling part of them. He did not think that, 'ff fr'r:j
a proceeding, the security of Europe against attac'ije
tt
France would be at all impaired ; because he con
:2litere
that the aclinow!edgment and guarantee, by all t,_':eson",e
aifnreu setcrnairiitt:::
sim li
pe l ) x, vsa os
Powers of Europe, of the neutrality of Belgium, Or,
still gete
(
called waste paper •; but it was a differerit'inatter
became the interest of all parties to maintain the 013 of )3'lo
Such was the case with respect to the neutrality -,oj,
glum. It was clearly to the interest of Eriglaaill other
it appeared to him, to the interest of France and t hsf ids
Great Powers of Europe, to respect the neutralitYbis aP
country ; and it was this state of things, which in

pe.isantty of
were always
the present.
y, who were
tes and grand
Ireland should
ed Parliament
ice of Parlia-

some modified
into Ireland.
portion of ita
charity of this

his Hon. arid I
emarks, but 14
d high-coloured
He did not dead
)s happy w 643 t
abated, and the
oft time be re.
a his commeo"
een able to g 1 °a
,an with iroPs',
.
ions to put doll,
iad, he admitteu,,
inquiry was 07,1
bat officers 0,
art in those prod
should be fot
dismissed frS
!ar, hear.)
ught against till
)ore for Irelalv

t.
.they encourage')
n from irelanit,
an emigration
the population!!
tented remainec"il
cease. He hope"l
; and that thei,
in many thing

Jr. LEE,
nether it sin!,l the
he registration
EQUER rePliej
)me modificatO!,
Id the Irish 00

QUER said the,
in the coarse 0

or Kerry did I,l'
eof Ireland. d
[on. and Learljb,
little too 100
tbe
rl things iroro
.ould turn bar ::I
id not know Iv
em ; but it wouoi
:ountry if be b

.meat i espectl,
Cie
_by the l'g

ri the table.

:".'s AL. be
tioned petition
t
hs
t would take tOl
► the Noble Vtl
:e. He obsercd
ing of the Fre,'o/
ers, the folloWe
raised to
I lie demolish( j
age really for;,
1 whether, 0,1111,
on the part of 01
4
whole or 03
betf
informed wheto,;.
to any such P
tb't
EQUER said
ular if the is" he
ie motion that .14
e House resdflor
ibjection to ra'''
Lg so, however'o4
address the Wifi
if he merely goo
ste answers tcloil,
mght that it
es could not ue,V
that countrl
Pla I
I properly. . 417
Mn of the atfairr o
!d afford the e'erli
required pr?Pii,,,
y of 1815,
garrisoned I))
a the questie°o!
E advantage tfc
I fortresses
the whole qf O,De
.0(
to y
protectioot,
would, it, Co,l'
kliing into t doi
re, of being oelito
me, in the ev
•ations.
uring the coot er;
on this sub:l°j
seen
considere
d it was theri,:ja;
tn entered t
think that, 11 (el
.gainst attael‘i,yrro
use he cy° 50#
e, by all te_ottl.,
f el',
admit, ',halta.," it
erit r 0 te.
itain the gt'o f f ;
neutrality o,oj,
et
England' Oti3l
anteand the r tb,i!
neutralitY4,
, which it,"

'n, formed a be' ter security for the peace of Europe than
airy fortresses. These were the views upon which his Ma-
jesty's Government had acted, and though the fact had un •
dw-lbted:y crime out more suddenly than was usually the caQe
'n matters of negociation, he had nu hesitation in saying
that part of the fortresses were to be demolished.
The Marquis of CHANDOS—What part?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not
Prepared to give the Noble Marquis an answer to that
question. •

Mr.-ROBINSON said, that a large amount of British
for-
tresses, y had been expended in the erection of these for-
and they were now told that the Brilish Govern-
ment had consented to their demolition ; and, lie would
dare to say, without asking for any indemnification from
h'rauce, the only power to be benefitted by the arrange-
ment. As for guarantees of neutrality, be only desired
to look hack at the events of the last twenty or thirty
years, to learn how much value ought to be attached to
toenL—( Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
tile Hon. Gentleman must admit that the present Govern-
It'ent was not responsible for the money which had been
expended in the erection of the fortresses.—(hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CHANDOS said he wished to know
whether there was any truth in the statement made in the
"Pesch of the King o' the French, that the tri-coloured
gag floated on the walls of Lisbon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
answer that question, as he hail had no opportunity of
aPtaking with his Right Hun. Friend, the First Lord of
ipthe Admiralty, on the subject. But the speech of the
king of the French did not state that the tri-coloured flag
Waved on the walls, but before the walls of Lisbon.
Lord STORMONT asked the Noble Lord (Althorp)
Whether he would have any objection to allow some day
to be set apart for the discussion of foreign politics.
Events had taken place of so extraordinary a character,
that notwithstanding the compromise which had been en-
tred into with respect to the discussion of the Reform
'kin; some day (whatever day the Noble Lord might
nu°''se) ought to be devoted to their consideration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
Government could fix no day for the discussion, while
tht negociations were pending ; but it was competent for
any gentleman to bring forward a motion on the subject.
Lord STORMONT intimated his intention of doing so.
afrd J. RUSSELL said that there would be no objection
:n the part of Ministers to discuss foreign politics when-
ive,r the Noble Lord (Stormont) should think proper to
tlog them under the consideration of the House ; and lie
had, no doubt that h;s Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston),
7l
°l3 had just entered the House, would be ready to give
the information on the subject which was consistent
ltit hie public duty. But his purpose in rising at pre-
seat was to state—what, perhaps, would not he pro-
Der'Y understood from the Speech of the King of the
taritcach--that the demolition of the fortresses was not to
t Place immediately, but was to be subject to the recog-
-4M of the King of Belgium by all the principal Powers
Europe, and to sonic arrangement which would in con-
liNtlenee be formed by them.
Colonel EVANS quite agreed with the Noble Lord
rltuorp) that the fortresses were too numerous and too
7ge; and he concurred in thinking that it was the inte-
IZt of the different Powers to preserve the neutrality of
igiutn,
The petition was then ordered to be printed.
Oa the motion that the House resolve itself into a Corn-
u'ittee of Supply,
Captain W. GORDON said, that in consequence of a
tragraph which appeared in the speech of the King of
tile French, he wished to know from the Noble Lord (Pal-
p_eettton) whether he had received any information of the
neh squadron having forced a passage up the Tagus.
c Emd PALMERSTON said that he had just received ac-
note from the English Ambassador at Paris, stating that
t ellvaphic despatch bad been received at Paris, contain-
ing that the Commander of the French fleet
411 renewed tile demands for satisfaction made by the French
Unvernment, and that not having obtained the required
tatisfaction the French fleet had entered the Tagus. A
T6ut resistance was made by one of the forts, but when
e accounts came away, the French fleet was within the
i.l,3gttst and the Government of Portugal had acceded to
'" demands of France.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House re-
solved into a

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The first question put was, that 112.9251. he granted
to defray the charges of his Majesty's Consuls and Con-
-I.4l,l'.General for 1831 ; also superannuation for retired
suowanem
these ROBINSON thought that in all countries where
itzeettaerywoal!-an Ambassadorial establishment, the chief se-
ttle Ambassadors might perform all the duties of
Consuls-General. lie wished to know what was the
dar!l,,of Consuls-General being appointed to Paris, and Ma-
o' and aind Washington. He found that the salary of the
06001
General at Lisbon had been reduced from 1,200/.
. Why had not the salary of the Consul-General
at Madrid been likewise reduced in the same proportion?
e also objected to the number of Consuls appointed to
ferent places in South America ; and said, that the ar-
rangements made by the United 4tates for the protection
f the interests of their commerce were less expensive and
*triOre efficacious than those of England. lie considered
'''Lat the resentplan of Consuls might advantageously be
,auu,lialledP, and the old system, with some improvements
”n" modifications, returned to.
Lord PALMERSTON w as not prepared to enter into
statement of the improvements which were contemplated
'1 Government in the Consular department. Ile had,
however, communicated with the President and Vice-
President of the Board of Trade on the subject, and would
be ready in the next Session to state what alterations it
Watt thought advislble to make. The present vote was a
Wreduction of 9,000/. or 10,000/. on the vote of last year.
ith respect to the Consul at Washington, he could in-
Col the Hon. Gentleman that that appointment was to
discontinued ; but with regard to the Consuls in South
sanl •
fberica, many of them were appointed to places where
ere was no diplomatic establishment, and might, there-
re. he regarded as diplomatic aes.
c.ondAfriatlt. GORDON strongly contndemned the existing
h system, and expressed his regret that Ministers
not
down to the House with a proposition for
etva42‘ng its The Committee was told that somethicg
/p hi be
done next year, but that did not satisfy him.
e thought an improvement of the present system might
be effected in a very short time.
lL°lll PALMERSTON said the subject was one of a
eerY complicated nature, involving many important consi-
lhearatatkioe 0 make any tnst.Nilthlis limited capacities, he could not un-
change in a short period, though per-
t\ Pl' the superior intelligence of the Hon. Member for
'ricklade would enable him to do so.
t It GORDON said if the Noble Lord would refer
r4:,lPeeclaes delivered during the last Session of Parlia-
Ati,,;Y his Right Hon. Colleague the First Lord of the
slteat raltY, he would there find a plan laid down for the
Ariion of the consular system.—(llear.)
r* Alderman THOMPSON said this was a question
As Ivbich the commercial interest was deeply interested..
qo,7e knew the subject was under the consideration of
'4,,,'onient, and believed they were anxious to effect any
Ij:ravel/lent which mighty be found practicable, he would
mlitieet to the propose te.
W,t
ht. Ss RICE said it was necessary to deal cautiously
t"e question fit st, on account of the interests of
ns.:'flierce,' and, sezondly, because the present system was
I,Pen Voluntarily opted by the Government, but
forced
them by,the House.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY confirmed the statement of the
of toht
lion. Gentleman, that the system now complained
Netae,, s forced upon the Government. It came recom-
trsd to the House by the Select Committee on foreign.
thate• tie believed that merchants were now convinced
a acted Modified system of fees was the best that could be
Pen'
l:L„ • Rs DOUGLAS expressed an opinion, as we mi-
'4 that the consular duties would be better per-
k if the officers were paid by fees instead of receiving
salat
ree.Sis J. slat',
Wll3 01 opinion that the sys.tem. of
wo"luioseration which would be least liable to objection
est 11 be one consisting partly of fees and partly of fixed
At the same time, he thought that it mould be
to abandon the present system without due de-
.
of •
of 4:1 110 N. i\lvatsiett said that it was the general wish
r , t'rehants that the system of paynunt by lets should be
eeerted to.
aseSoir,.G. ROSE believed that if Consuls should be paid
as,,i_utmlng to a scale of fees established in each country, the
nit would give general satisfaction.
lion WARBURTON was desirous that the retnunera-
L whether it consisted of fees or salary, should not be
'l',...astire as to become an object of patronage with the
fir s„
ROBINSONeI°uI said that, if the present system
th„ w ceatised, it st i'v'sed, and tic,: salaries of
-7,?filcers must be reduced.
Vote was then agreed to.
e folio tthen '• without 1.
05, n mg N o es w eie agreet..to !stn.-
'150,000 for the extraordinary expenses of the army.
t 93,000 for the Commissariat Department.
r,S:IS to defray the law expenses of Scotland.
,910 was voted for the civil establishment of the

Bahama Islands, after a desultory conversation, in whirl,
Mr. Robinson, Lord Howick, Colonel Davies, Mr. R.
Gordon, Mr. S. Rice, Lord Althorp, Mr. Warbui ton,
and Mr. Milks took part.
The next voce was for 6,625/., for defraying the civil
charge for Nova Scotia.
Mr. ROBINSON was glad to perceive that there was a
reduction of 2,147/. under this head, as compared with
the charge of last year. He thought, however, when he
saw a sum of 20,0007. appropriated by the colony, out of
its own revenues, for local improvements, and 5,0007. fur
the encouragetnent of the fisheries, that the colony might
very well dispense with farther assistance from Parliament.
After some observations from Mr. K. DOUGLAS, Lord
Howler:, and Mr. \Vtr.►s, the grant was agreed to.
It was then proposed to grant 4,000/. to defray the
charges of the cia establishment of the Island of Bermuda.
Mr. ROBINSON observed, that the grant now called
for was to the same amount as that which had been voted.
last year. He should be glad to know why the Colonial
Secretary at Bermuda received 8001. a-year, while in
other colonies of much greater extent the Colonial Secre-
tary received only 500/. or 6001. a-year ?
Lord lIOWICK said, that the Colonial Secretary at
Bermuda acted also as private Secretary to the Governor,
and had, in consequence, considerable additional duties to
perform. Ile conceived that 8001. a-year was not too
high a salary for the situation. The whole matter would •
however, undo-go a strict revision ; and if the salary were
found to be too much, it should be reduced.
Mr. ROBINSON could not conceive any reason why
the Colonial Secretary at Bermuda should receive 800/.
a-year, while the Colonial Secretary at Sierra Leone, that
pestilential climate, only received 600/. a-year.
The resolution was then agreed to.
The next vote was for 3,320/. to defray the charges of
the civil establishment at Prince Edward's Island.

I Agreed to, without observation.
The sum of 11,2611. was then proposed for defraying
the charge of the civil establishment of Newfoundland.
Mr. ROBINSON opposed this motion. Newfound-
laud, it should be observed, had no local judicature : and
a vote of 11,0001. was now called for in aid of re-
venues raised in that colony, not by the power of a local
judicature, lint by acts of that House. He contended,
that money raised in Newfoundland by acts of the legisla-
ture here, ought to be accounted for to Parliament, just
like any other vote of the public money. He now wished
to call the attention of the committee to the situation in
which the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Villiers),
who filled the situation of agent for the island, stood at
present. The island, he was bound to say, had not de-
rived any benefit from that Hon. Gentleman's exertions.
He would here shortly give to the House a history of that
appointment. Some years ago the inhabitants of New-
foundland could only communicate with the Government
through the medium of the Admiral who was placed
on that station. They found, in consequence, that their
interests were neglected, and that Government was not
properly apps ized of their situation. They therefore ap •
plied to Government, that they might themselves he al-
, lowed to appoint an agent. All they wanted was, to
select a person who should be acquainted with the situation
of the country, and who would, consequently, be enabled
to place the situation of the colony in its true light before
Government. But what did the Government do, in con-
sequence of this application? They immediately ap-
pointed an agent themselves, with a salary to lie paid out of
the revenue of the colony. In the observations which
he was about to make, he meant nothing personal to
the Hon. Member, but having a large stake in New-
foundland, he would say to the Hon. Member that
he had never given the slightest assistance to
that colony. It was undoubtedly right that the Hon.
Member should not allow his duty with referenee to New-
foundland to interfere with that which he owed to the in-
terests of the country in general; but, assuredly, he ought
not to be paid out of the revenue of the colony, when, upon
various points, he took a view of the interests of Newfound-
land totally different from that which was entertained by
the inhabitants. He understood that the Hon. Member
had now taken office under the Crown—that he had ac-
cepted a situation connected with the East Indies. He
congratulated the Hon. Member on h•wing taken office, and
he was convinced that he was extremely well calculated to
render good service to any Government to which he might
please to attach himself. But if he were placed in a situa-
tion which caused his duties to lie of a conflicting nature,
so that he was compelled, as agent, to take a view of cer-
tain matters adverse to the interest of the colony, out of
whose revenues he was remunerated, he thought that he
ought to feel himself obliged, in honour, to lay down that
office. There was no colony better able to support a larger
population than Newfoundland, if it had fair play ; but, un-
fortunately, it never had fair play. He was instructed by
the inhabitants of Newfoundland to say, that if a local le-
gislature were granted to them,—which they were equally
entitled to with the other North American colonies,—they
would never ask that House for another farthing. If no
reason were given by the Hon. Member for Bletchingley
(Mr. Hyde Villiers) fur the continuance of this salary to
the agent for Newfoundland, he should move, as the only
means open to him, that the vote be reduced by 3001.
Lord HOWICK said, lie must complain that, when
questions were asked, Hon. Gentlemen should, with-
out attending to the answers, go on debating those ques-
tions as if no answer bad been given to them. He
ap-
pealed to every Hon. Gentleman present whether he had
not, in answer to a question from the Hon. Member for
Cricklade, stated, that when his Hon. Friend (the Mem-
ber for Bletchinglev) accepttd the office of Secretary to the
Board of Trade, his lion. Friend had intimated to the
Treasury that he should no longer draw his salary as
agent fur Newfoundland.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Worcester seemed to know a great deal about New-
foundland, but perhaps it had escaped the Hon. Member's
knowledge that the Chamber of Commerce at St. John's
had sent a vote of thanks to his Hoe. Friend the Member
for Bletchingley, which vote was couched in the hand-
somest terms. In the face of this fact the Hon. Member
fir Worcester came down to that House and asked
Hon. Members to believe, upon his individual authority,
that the Hon. Member for Bletchingley was a sinecurist,
and that his services were rather hurtful than advantage-
ous to the colony.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the pre—
sent estimate, he had already promised the House that
in the next session a regular statement of the whole ex-
penditure should be laid before them. Ile did not think
this a proper opportunity for entering upon the question
of giving a local legislature to Newfoundland. He agreed,
however, with the Hon. Member, that the wealth and in-
telligence of these colonists entitled them to a more direct
controul over their affairs than they at present enjoyed ; and
he had no hesitation in saying, that to give them such con-
troul the Government was most anxious. This, however,
was a matter of some difficulty, and required much con-
sideration, because it would be extremely inconvenient
and unjust to give to one part of the population a pre-
ponderance over the others. The way to avoid this was
not yet apparent.
Mr. ROBINSON said, that he had not heard the an-
swer of the Noble Lord to the Hon. Measlier for Crick-
lade : if he had, he should not have made the observations
he had made.
Lord HOWICK said that the question and answer had
arisen out of a debate to which the Hon. Member himself
had given rise, and that the Hon. Member was in the House
when the answer was given.
Mr. H. VILLERS said, that it was hardly necessaty
he should say any thing after what had fallen from the
Noble Lord, only be did not choose to remain silent under
the imputations which had been cast upon hint by the
Hon. Member for Worcester. Ile had considered himself
as holding this office for the benefit of the colony, and
with no other view whatsoever. The Chamber of Com-
merce being the only part of the population that acted in a
corporate capacity, he had communicated with the 3letn-
hers of the Chamber, and stated to them that he did not
wish to hold the office one moment after they should conee
to the opinion that his services wire not beneficial to the
colony. And what had the Chamber of Commerce done?
Had they asked him to relinquish the office? On the con-
tra' y, in every report they had made they had acknow-
ledgel his services in the handsomest manner, and partial-
lardy by a recent vote of thanks to which his Noble Friend
had alluded, but which was far too flattering for it to be
becoming in hint to do more than glance at. At the same
time he was boustl to admit that there were some mem-
bers of the coloay who wished to see the Hon. Member for
Worcester in this (dike, and perhaps the Hon. Member
himself participated in that wish.—(" Hear," and a laugh.)
He had only to add, that as the Noble Lord had stated to
the Committee, be had declined to draw any longer for his
salary as agent for the colony.
Mr. IIUNT thought, that as the Hon.
,Gentleinan had
given up the salary, they ought to be benehtted by it, and
that the we ought to be reduced by 500/.
Mr. ROBINSON repeated that he had not before heard
the statements which had now been made. The on.
Member for Bletchinglev, however, was mistaken if he
thought that he (Mr. Robinson) was not awat.
of the
votes of ehanits from the Chamber ef Commerce. The
lion. Member: might shake his head, but be could tell the
Hon. Member that he had received from the Ch tuber
of
Commerce an account of all their proceedings; and
further, that the Chamber of Commerce had acted? he
might say, almost under his advice. He had not gr.tei ;toe
all his objections to this vote, one part of wI
meant the expense of the Government-house—wo
tify him in objecting to it altogether, lie should now

after what had passed, and after the unsatisfactory nature '
of what had fallen from the Noble Lord with regard to;
eiving a local legislature to the colony, object to the vote
altogether.
Mr. S. RICE entreated the Committee to observe the
course which the Hon. Member fur Worcester had pur-
sued; first, the Hon. Member objected to the vote on ac-
count of a certain 300/., awl then he farther objected to it
on account of the constitution of the colony. To the first
objection the Hon. Member had received, as he himself
admitted, a complete and satisfactory answer. Then, as
to the constitution of the colony, the Hon. Member had
received from his Noble Friend a frank admission that the
wealth and the intelligence of the colony had made it a
matter of anxious consideration to give to Newfoundland
a local legislature; but his Noble Friend had said that
this subject required time, because it was difficult to form
such a plan as would prevent giving an undue preponde-
rance to a particular part of the colony. Having re-
ceived these answers, then what did the Hon. Member for
Worcester do? Why, finding that his objection as to the
3001. fell to the ground, the Hon. Member turned round,
and said that he would object to the vote altogether,—to
the whole vote,—until the Government gave a new con-
stitution to Newfoundland... 4 Hear, hear.) Now surely
a Committee of Supply was not the proper place wherein
to discuss the nature of a new constitution for this colony
—( Hear, hear)—and such a course came, he must say,
with a peculiarly bad grace from the Hon. Member for Wor-
cester, who had given notice of a motion which would bring
the whole subject under the consideration of the House.
He did not deny that there were many objections to
these estimates, which he had before characterised as
calculated to delude Hon. Members, and to keep from the
House the knowledge of the real amount and nature of the
expenditure. The expenditure of the Government-house
was a proof of this. The original estimate for that house,
as agreed to by Parliament, was 8,7781. But what suns
did the Committee suppose had actually been laid oat
upon the house ? Why, the whole expenditure, exclusive
of stores sent from England, was 30,1581., although the
estimate had been only 8,778/.—(llear, hear.) He said
that this was the amount of the expenditure, exclusive of
stores sent from England. Now some of the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite knew a good deal about Newfoundland,
and could therefore tell whether there was any stone in the
colony.
Several How. MEMBERS-Plenty.

Mr. S. RICE continued. Then, Hon. Members would
doubtless be very much surprised to learn that granite had
been sent from England for this house.—(Cries of " Oh,"
and laughter.) Ile had no hesitation in saying that such
a house was quite unnecessary; but, even if it had been
necessary, still the Government ought to have been ap-
plied to for permis•ion to lay out such a sum of money
upo❑ a house, the cost of which, in the estimate laid before
them, was put at 8,7781., and not at 30,158/.—(Hear.)
Hon. Members would observe, by a Treasury minute that
had bean laid upon the table, that effectual means had
been taken to guard against the recurrence of such a cir-
cumstance ; that estimates of every work would be laid
before the House previous to the works being undertaken ;
and that, in succeeding estimates, the House would have
an opportunity of seeing whether the original estimates
had been exceeded.

Mr. JOHN WOOD said, he had thought that what
came out upon the navy estimates had been bad enough ;
but that this affair of the Government-house at New-
foundland was much worse. He hoped that measures
would be taken to prevent any thing of the kind hap-
pening again, for he was sure that a Reformed Parliament
would impeach any Minister who should do the
Mr. R. GORDON said he had often urged upon Go-
vernment the adoption of a principle which he hoped his
Majesty's present Ministers would act upon,—namely, the
proposing the estimates always a year in advance. That
principle was the one which was followed in France, and if
it were adopted here, they would be now voting the estimates
for 1832, and which they would deal with as they pleased
in the way of retrenchment, instead of the estimates be-
fore them, the greater portion of which had been already
expended.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he fully concurred
with his Hon. Friend, as to the adoption of the principle
to which he had alluded, and he was sure that his Hon.
Friend would he glad to hear that as far as the navy esti-
mates were concerned that principle had already been acted
upon to a great extent. He (Sir J. Graham) had by
means of the unappropriated balances been enabled to carry
on the service of the navy up to the Ist of April without
drawing on the estimates for the current year, so that the
present navy estimates would defray the expenses of the
service up to the Ist of April, 1832, and it was probable
that before that period the navy estimates for the next
year would be brought forward.—(Hear.) He had
grounds for Loping that his Majesty's Government would
he enabled to adopt the same principle with regard to the
other departments connected with the public service.
Mr. PAGET hoped that the promises which were made
by his Majesty's Ministers on this subject would be re-
deemed. Fur his part, he would say that he believed they
were made in good faith.
After a few words from Mr. J. Wood, Mr. Hunt, and
Mr. S. Rice, and from Mr. Robinson, who said he would
not divide the Committee on this occasion, the vote was
agreed to. _ _

The next vote was for the sum of 9,7301. 15s. 10d. to
defray the charges of the civil establishment of Sierra
Leone for the year 1831.
Lord G. SOMERSET wished to know whether his
Majesty's Government were still determined to act upon
the recommendation of a Gtmmittee of that House with
regard to the transferring of the establishment of Sierra
Leorle to Fernando Po, and also whether they had received
any recent satisfactory information as to the state of the
health in the latter settlement. •The first accounts from
Fernando Po had represented it as a comparatively most
salubrious situath,n, but certainly the appearances of the
witnesses who came to London from that island did not
bear out that statement.

Lord HOWICK said that the recommendation of the
Committee to which the Noble Lord alluded was, that the
establishment at Sierra Leone should be transferred to
Fernando Po. The preparations for doing so bad been
carried on to a considerab'e extent by the late Govern-
ment. After, however, those preparations had been
carried to that extent, Spain set up a claim to
the Island of Fernando Po, and it was required bythe Tr, aty and Act of Parliament under which the mixed
Commission at Sierra Leone acted, that that Commission
could only sit in the discharge of its duties upon a British
territorial possession. Spain offered to relinquish her claim
to the island upon the payment of one hundred thousand
pounds. That was a SUM the payment of which was
quite out of the question. In that manner considerable
delay siderable
delay had taken place, and should Spain persist her
claim, the Court of Mixed Commission must remain at
Sierra Leone, and the whole establishment at Fernando
Po must given up. He was sorry to say, that accord-
ing to the latest accounts which had been received by Go-
vernment, Fernando Po did not appear to be much better
as regarded health than Sierra Leone, which was indeed as
bad as it possibly could be. The accounts of the mortality •
in the latter place were dreadful. He trusted, however,
that the mortality, which chiefly prevailed among the Eu-
ropeans, would be in a great degree, diminished, by the
employing, as his Majesty's Government were determined
to do, l'ersous of colour to fill as much as possible the si-
tuations in that colony. They hoped to be able to find a
sufficient number of persons in the West Indies qualified
to fill such situations, and by' that means they trusted
that the mortality which had hitherto prevailed at Sierra
Leone would be materially diminished,
Mr. KEITH DOVGLAkr; said that the foreign slave-
trade was carried on now to a greater extent, and under
worse circumstances, than it had been hitherto. He com-
plained that France was not acting up with good faith to
the provisions of the treaty for putting an end to 'the slave
trade. Ile was happy to understand that his Majesty's
Government were at present engaged in ;cgotiations with
France on the subject, lie was convinced that if both
countries agreed to the right of mutual searela in three
mouths an end would be put to the slave-trade, and that
the establishment at Sierra Leone might be altogether
abandoned. Up to the year 1824, the civil expences of
that establishment amounted to 2,208,000/. The same
expenses from that time up to 1830, amounted to
1,082,0001. The riaval expenses from 1807 to 1824 had
'seen 1,630,0001. The payments to Spain and Portugal
amounted to 1,230,0001. Thg expeuaes ott Account of
c.ptured saves amounted to t 133,0921. Ilk: expenses in-
curred for commissioas was 193,000/. Altog:ther this esta-
blishment had cost the country already nearly 8,000,000/.
Sir G. MURRAY said, that Fernando Po appeared in
the first instance to be a more commodious place. They
could not, however, all at once get rid of the establishment
'at Sierra Leone, by transfrriing it to the former place,
and it WaS afters aria found from experience that Fernando
l'o was not mote salubrious than Sierra Leone. Having
-x.phuned the negotiatioiis which the late Government had
alth Spain on the suli;ect of esOblishiog the t;unonission
• it Fernando Po, they 'Hight lion. Gentleman stated
,hat Spain did not hold out for a large sum, and
lat the principal difficulty lay in accommodating the
,chum; treaty so as to meet the wishes of both Govern-
cents. There had been justly a great sensation excited
this country in consequence of the great mortality at
onra Leone ; but that had been much lessened in comae
,ilience of the number of Europeans employed there having
seen decreased, and if his Majesty's Government should act

as the Noble Lord had stated, it would be still farther
diminished. The principal reason why he (Sir Georg
Murray), when at the head of the Colonial department, was
unwilling to abandon that colony was, because he !oohed
upon it as the only chance of introducing civilization ink,
Africa. That establishment had no doubt cost the country
an enormous expense, and he quite agreed with the Hon.
Member for Weymouth in the opinion, that the greatest
difficulty in putting a complete end to the slave trade con-
sisted in the want of a faithful and cordial co-operation on
the part of the French Government towards carrying the
objects of the treaty for that purpose into effect.
Colonel TORRENS said th it he had that day received
a letter from Fernando Po, in which it was stated that now
that the woods had been cleared away, it had become a
much more salubrious station than it hail been hitherto.
It was clear, he laid, that nothing could be done for an
advantage of the West India Colonies until the slave trade
was abolished. He should regret the removal of the cs'a-
blishment from Fernando Po.

Giptain HARRIS dwelt upon the great advantages
which he stated would arise from making the chieftains of
Africa properly acquainted with the principles of political
economy, and more especially with those relating to the
doctrine of exchange and the value of labour. He had a
plan, he said, to propose for a reciprocity of commerce with
Africa, which would do away with the slave trade alto-
gether, and which, though he had laid the outlines of it be-
fore his Majesty's Government, they had never come to him
to consult him upon it.
A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, com-
plained of the extent to which the slave trade was carried
on under the French flag.

Sir J. GRAHAM coincided in opinion with the Hon.
Member who bad just sat down, that the slave trade was
carried on in Spanish and foreign bottoms, under the
French flag; but he was convinced that the trade never
could be suppressed until the mutual right of search was
conceded by different nations. He could assure the Com-
mittee, that his Majesty's Ministers were making every
exertion in order to induce the Government of France to
agree to a reciprocal right of search, and by which alone
the traffic could be suppressed.
Mr. STRATFORD CANNING said, that between
four and five years ago he had negociated with the Go-
vernment of the United States of America a treaty, by
whirls the right of search between the two nations was
reciprocally conceded. He had had the honour of signing
that treaty in conjunction with the late Mr. Huski,son,
and it was approved by the Executive Government of
America ; but, unfortunately, owing to the feelings of
irritation which then exis'ed against England, the treaty
was thrown out by the Senate. At present officers who
searched foreign vessels did it on their own responsibility,
and that responsibility was so very great, that it could not
be expected that officers would always be ready to incur
the risk.

The vote was then put and carried.
Upon the CHAIRMAN putting the question, that a corn
not exceeding 16,1821. be granted to defray the expenses
of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign
Parts,
Mr. WARBURTON said it was not his intention to
divide the Committee on this grant, but he felt confident
that no vote which P.irliament could come to could pos-
sibly tend more effectually to alienate the minds of the co-
lonists from the parent country. When the great body of
the colonists were of another religion, it was most absurd
to be voting money for a forced support of the Anglican
church.

Mr. WILKS objected to the great extent of the grant,
as well as to the principle of attempting to establish al
church among a people who were hostile to its doctrines.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had already expressed his de-
cided opposition to these votes, and was convinced that no
Member, who had given any attention to the subject
could come to any other conclusion. He was anxious that
the vote should not pass without obtaining from Mi-
nisters a decided declaration, whether they did or did
not intend in future to propose any similar grants. He
wished the grant to be altogether abandoned, but gra-
dually, so as not to hurt any individuals who now de-
pended on it. He had in his possession a petition
which had been voted unanimously by the House of
Assembly in Lower Canada, and which prayed that these
grants, and the system that they were intended to sup-
port, should be put an end to, for it was unqoestionably
true that the system did excite against the Church of Eng-
land feelings of jealousy and suspicion. The Church of
England in Canada ought to be put upon the same footing
as all other Christian churches, and until this was done
the Church of England would lag behind all other sects.
Nothing could be more preposterous than to establish a
place of education in Canada upon principles which pre-
vented nine-tenths of the people front availing themselves
of the instruction. He wished his Majesty's Minsters to
answer him on three points—first, whether they intended
in future to continue these votes a—secondly, whether they
intended to apply themselves to the subject of the clergy
reserves ;—and, thirdly, whether the charter of the Uni-
versity of Canada was under the consideration of the Co-
lonial-office.
Mr. WARBURTON wished likewise to be informed
whether Ministers were not in possession of a memorial
from the Bishop and Clergy of Quebec, praying that the
Clergy reserves might not be divided with the Church of
Scotland ? It had always been understood in that House
that the reserves should be divided between the Church of
Eneland and the Church of Scotland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
answer the four questions on the pat t of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters. With respect to the first question he would say,
that Ministers did not defend this vote upon principle.
The point, the Committee was aware, was one of consi-
derable difficulty, as it involved the whole question of the
church establishment of Canada: it was therefore imps.
sible to take any step rapidly, but it did appear to hint
that it was not fitting that the people of England should
be called upon to provide funds for the support of the
clergy and church establishment r f Canada. It was the
intention of Ministers gradually to reduce this grant, and
to abolish it as soon as possible. The clergy reserves were
highly detrimental to the prosperity of the colony, but he
could give no pledge on this subject, which was one of
great difficulty. The subject of the College was under the
consideration of the colonial department ; though he could
not give a more satisfactory answer on this point than on
the preceding. With respect to the last question, he was
not aware that any such representation had been received
in this country.
Mr. HUNT would merely follow the example which
his Majesty's Ministers had set when they were in oppo-
sition, for they had then moved that this grant should be
diminished by one-half, and that it should entirely cease in
1831. They had divided the House on that question, and
of the list of the minority which be held in his hand, the
first name was that of Lord Althorp, and the last was
Lord Howick's.—(A laugh.) He should imitate their
example, and move that the grant be now reduced to
8,0001., and that it be abolished in 1832. Ile personally
knew a Mr. Griffin who had pat him in possession of the'
facts
the Society proceeded in North America.
But how
of how
was
this society to be supported ? Why, by
subscriptions, and the deficiency was to be made up by
Parliament. The subscription had been risen.—(A
laugh.) It was always amusing to the House when he
made a mistake in grammar. Why should the House
expect him to be so correct ? When other Members made
gross grammatical errors, they only estc;aod a snide in a
few literary gentlemen, but whoa be made any errors
they were sore to be met by a great laugh.—(Loud
laughter.) But the subscriptions altogether to this
Society had amounted to only 33,313/. ; there had Loon
raised in churches, by virtue of King's 'setters, the
mum of 55,858/., and Parliament had voted 2,03,088/.
This was, frein 1814, when the Society Was first
established. Mr. crist had bees sent to Prince
Edward's ;slinsa, and had reported that he had found
neither church nor congregation. He was then removed
os where he was told that he would find both, but for
a church he had found only a few score of boards nailed
together, and the space they enelessed was filled with
sheep. For the hotteety G
ttoy./ his reports he was at hst re-
and now no Bishop would license hint
to preach and. But how was the money spec,t by
ed altogether,in
Eng
this Society ? Bishop Inglis had a qa1.54-y-y of :-.lsWoi, tt
year, and yet the Society addad to it 400/. a year. Arch-
deacon Willis had a oala4
of 1,5004 a year, and yet he
t
ith Archdeacon Foster• and
their
(isreceived 2001. ruore f sin the
nt
ptiluyt,gieit.l.atl:iuictioi
persevere
va:lsnviti
odtalaseleytinrhatec(eill:teleili.,:anlsbioataolvahene:siddesr.
The Society Possessed two estates in Paabadoes, with 700
f the sons of placemen. I-Ie
of these negroea was, to support a codege for the education
amen:lS-neut.
Lout IIOWICI. lead beer the
resolution
ie. h
the
, tto L n
;c:tosvted ha.
ddilooung.h:lenntitbett•ofoirmyPil•ens,tilo4neyhfaodi.
the resolution on the ground
that the people of England
any such purpose; but he had expressly statpi that
hts
to
beina“ltsli
it was not his wish to expose any ;sod:a:duals to hard-
to
ships by a sudden reduetioss th'e grant, and that lie
express its opinion that the principle of the grant
relAysopportunity
ilad gien
afo r t
pledgethe
asllinainsters
to reduce the grant, he trusted that the Honourable Mern-
her would withdraw big amendment. Many clergyruen
were employed in the colonies by the society on salaries
merely sufficient for their decent tnaintenanc and these
i'itnitia(g)duleiset

perso a hovieg bun sent out on Vie feies of these salaries,
it wo.al be an act of monstrous injustice to recall the,;.
No additio::al persons ought to bs scot out, and thus the
grants iniri,t he gradually abolished, cud the society lei
to supra it own rni,'.iona'ir• Hee believed the so
ciety to be of groat use, bur by eiiling upon Parliament
to supply its dtficiences it 'hied tie the sources of pri-
vate charity.
Mr. R. GORDON thought that the Noble Lord ought
to have taken the subject into his consideration eight
months ago, when i.e came into office. By the report of
the Society, it was evident that they mismanaged their
own affairs, and the public money ought not to be in-
trusted to them : 4,333/. was granted for Nova Scotia,
and how was this distributed? Whilst the Bishop wa•
allowed .2,000/. a-year, the Presbyterian clergyman re-
ceived but 751., and yet the Presbyterians were as three
o one compared to the Church of England. But tile
cry of Ministers always was, that every thing was under
consideration ; but the Noble Lord hal been in office.
Night months, and ought to have considered this question
long ago.
Mr. HUNT thought that the Noble Lord had not on'y
furnished him with grounds for dividing the Committee, but
had even supplied him with hopes of dividing it successfully.
If the Bishops and Clergy wore so liberally-minded as the
Noble Lord said they were; that was in favour of his mo-
tion, as this vote was the less necessary,
Mr. BRISCOE said, he was one of the minority alluded
to; but he was hound to say, that the Noble Lord's ex.
planation was candid and just, and he recommended the
Hon. Member for Preston not to divide the House,

Sir It INGLIS, with reference to the cases brought
forward by the Hon. Member for Preston, said he eou!d
not give credit to them; it was, indeed, only assertion
against assertion.

Colonel DE LACY EVANS said, that it was not the
mere vote of 16,000/. which was involved, but the ex-
pense must be greater. He objected to the vote, as throw-
ing impediments in the way of the colonists themselves,
though it was not f,ir to lower the vote this year.
Sir J. M. DOYLE thought he could suggest a middle
course. There was a very rich bishopric now vacant—
(Hear)—which be thought might furnish an easy way
of recompensing the respectable individuals in question,
who had done their duty. He threw this out as a sug-
gestion.
Mr. R. GORDON would make another suggestion. If
the vote was suffered to pass, the whole subject should be
referred to a Committee of Inquiry.
Mr. HUNT said, if his Majeety's Ministers would take
the advice of the Hun. Member for Carlow (Sir J. Doyle,)
he would withdraw his motion; otherwise he would divide
the House.

Sir IL HARTY made a few remarks which we could
not bear.

Air. A. BARING observed that if half the vote was
cut oft, now that three quarters of the year were gone,
and before information could be communicated to the in-
dividuals, it would be unjust. He was averse to the
grant, and remarked that where it was made, the Esta-
blished Church of England was declining ; whereas in the
United States, where the church was a mere private
church, it was growing.—(Hear, hear.) Experience
showed that where there were large salaries and grants,
jobs and sinecures soon appeared. He therefore recom-
mended to the Noble Lord (Howick), between this and the
next Session, to devise a scheme for the final abolition of
the grant.

The Committee then divided, when there appeared,
For the amendment 47
Against it
Majority for the original resolution -13 S
The followin; votes were then agreed to :-
37,500/. for convicts' stores for New South Wales and
Van Dieman's Land.

37,154/. for the establishment at Fernando Po.
On the resolution for granting 24,3311. for the settle-
ment on Swan River.

Mr. HUNT put a question to the Noble Lord (Howick)
respecting the state of the settlement ?
Lord HOWICK said that the last accounts which had
been received were more satiJactozy.
An Hos. ilirmarit put a question to the Noble Lord,
as to the allowance to Captain Stirling.
Lord HOWICK said, that in consequence of the repre-
sentations of the state of the country made by Captain
Stirling. he had gone out under an understanding, that if
the colony succeeded he was to hive a moderate salary.—
Considering that the expellees in a new settlement were
heavy, he thought that 8001. a year was a very moderate
salary. Captain Stirling had made great exertions.

Colonel TORRENS considered, that by judicious ma-
nag, went every colony might, from the first, pay its own
expenses, civil and military. He referred to the difficulty
of obtaining grants of good land at Swan River.
Mr. BARING defended the grant.
Lord lIOWICK, in reply to the gallant officer (Colonel
Turrens), said that the first grantees bad obtained such
advantageous grants, that therewas not much left for others.

is'tera few words from Mr. Sadler, Colonel Torrens,
Mr. Gisborne, Mr. Hunt, Mr. Briscoe, Mr. Western, Mr.
lienett, and Mr. 'Warburton, the grant was agreed to.
Mr. RICE, in moving the next resolution, said, that
when the present Government came ;nto office, they found
the expense of the Rideau canal so formidable, that it ap-
peared to them necessary to bring it specifically under the
notice of the House. He had therefore, on the sugges-
tion of his Noble Friend (the Chancellor of tie Exche-
quer), laid on the table of the Home all the papers relat,
ing to it. These papers had been referred to a select
Committee, and that Committee had made a report upon
them. On the authority of their report he now moved
for a grant of 296,0001, to complete the water communi-
tions in Canada.

Mr. WARBURTON—Hive you any any more correct
estimates than those which were laid before the Com-
mittee, and were introduced in their report?
Mr. RICE—The Government did not rimieee any fur-
ther information than that which been already hid before
the Committee. lie regretted that the information, of
which the former Government was in possession,when the
last grant was made, bad not been laid be'ore the House,
as Parliament was then sitting. If it had, it would have
been much more satisfactory, and great expense would
have been saved to the country—an expense that had,
altogether, up to this time, amounted to 1,000,000/.

. .
Sir H. IIARDINGE vas sorry that, in consequence of
the absence of the present Governor of Ceylon, who had
been Under-Secretary of tiv Colonies at the time referred
to, he and his Hon. Hoo. Friends near him were not
able to give a catisfaetory answer, which they had an
doubt could be given, to the observations of thi, Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite.

In the course of a short desultory conversatinn which
then ensued on the subject of the expeuce attendant upon
the public works in Canada.

Mr. ROBINSON complained that although 1,049,000/.
had been already expended on this canal, the work was
still imperfect ; and more money, it appeared, was sti!l.
required to erect defences against the probable ineurakana
of the Indians. The whole expenditure Le• could not
help considering, under the circuinstz,r,c‘a:, to be a great
misapplication of public cnoney, ior which his Majesty's
late Government, in his opinion, were justly censurable.
Mr. LABOcCHERE refereed to the existing discon-
tents in the Canadas, and' also in Nava Scotia, to which
ho begged leave to call the attention of the King's Mi-
nisters,
especially as he had bt,eu intrusted with a peti-
tion of considerable loaportance on the suliecti which he
would take an early opportunity of presenting to the
Houze! The two branches taf the legislature, though each
unanimous in themselves, he regretted to state, were dia.
metrically oppc,sed to one another ; and the divisicr.,-; inad
occasioned so much political jarring and pvlf,,i di-quiet,
that it became the indispensable duty o Parliament it-
self to interpose, by an exercise ei its own vigorous au-
thority, without furtll;,: ;oss of time. The legislative
assembly, he cr.azeived, would never be a complet,; and
satsf4c.tory political system until a spirit of fell, free, and
fair election should be effectually inf‘ised into the whole
mass, and they ought to have either a Governor
and a tiou,e of A,:iembly without an intermediate
body it' they had the latter, it behoved them
ap Mice to introduce the principle of election as
Mr. Fox had originally proposed, 'kilo next point to
which ha wished to call 6.9, c,..t.cntion of the Committee
was, to that system \-y which the Government party e;,-
grossed the of the offices and places at O.?. tiksposal
of the executive. Whether a man was., v_epalar or not,
he was thrust into office provith:d «c was connected with
this little oligarchy. V,4y4 would be thought iu this
country if the Soy:wt-igo were to strain his prerog.ative and
have ay,ily what Ministers be pleased, whether they were
•
plwasitq to the House and the country or nt,:t The re-
sult would he, that the country wou.!,;:, se in an uproar
from one end to the other, 7.,'et this mode of selecting
public officers Imstilc. Cu t:ao feelings of the public, was the
practice in t!.:.e Camila for the last ten or fifteen
r.:l this, he must say that the people of Canada were
attached to British Government and British connexion,
but that tvas an additional ;ea...al why they should expect
and obtain justice at oua: hands.

Sir G. Al--JtRAY defended the system adopted towards
the Oanad is by tile 1:4! Government. The whole of the
works undertaken were, whi:e they tended to strengthen
I3ritish power in that quArter, also calculated for the great
local advantage of the colo: i,ts. For his own part, he
would say, that the policy of the Colonial-office was to Ws-
cooraze as much as pos..ible party dii•ii.osions. One great

object which ha had endeavoured to impress on the
vernment in the Canadas was to increase the Members ot
the Legislative Council, by introducing into it a large
number of efficient persons. It was also recommended
that Government should be careful to avoid giving one
part of the Legislature a triumph over the other, which
was the foundation of much discontent and heartburnings
in the colony. With respect to the expense of (we un-
derstood) the Rideau canal, it was necessary not on y as a
line of defence, but was of the first utility as it c mterned
the local advantages of the colony.
Colonel EVANS said, that we should 'ook to the Cana-
das as a p,s-e,.ion on which we could not count ; erma-
uently, and he did not see the policy of keeping up such a
line of deftnce as was between the Upper and Lower
Canadas.

triei teaienx
pt
ne
dLi t tunx
hCe amn ands: s,s
ai
Sir G. MURRAY said, that it would be impossible to
the colonial department directly. All expenditure of this
kind received, in the first inst.nce, the ,anetion of the
Treasury. yf wtheatimntonthee
wllasppteiirr.e
,t,Adsbtyo
Colonel EVANS pointed out the diffic ilty of ma n atn-
ing such a long line of defence.
Sir G. MURRAY said the practicability of maintaining
it had been tried and proved.
Mr. WARBURTON asked whether there was any docu-
ment in the Treasury to show that the Colonia Depart-
mert was authorized to expend money on the Canadas
without first applying to Parliament.
Mr. S. RICE said that there was no document to show
that what he considered the objectionable part of the grant
was (as we understood) sanctioned by the Treasury.
After a few words from Mr. HUNT, who said that if
the Committee divided he would vote against the grant,
the motion Was put and carried without a division.
Sir IL PARNELL moved that 351,650/. Ss. Id. be
grinted to his 111,jesty fur defraying- the charge of the
disembodied militia of Great Britain and Ireland, for the
year 1831.
_ _

Mr. ROBINSON objected to voting so large a grant at
so late an hour.

➢lr. S. RICE said, that of all the grants this was the
least objectionable. It was not an estimate prepared by
Government, but was taken on the report of a Committee
to which the several estimates had been submitted.

Sir H. HARDINGE said that if Hun. Members had no
objections to the detail, the objection, if any, to tile prin-
ciple could be better made on bringing up the report.
Mr. HUNT protested against any lay gegrant being voted
it that late hour.

The motion was then put and carried, and the House
having resumed, the report was ordered to be receiYod to-
morrow (this day).

ISSUE OF EXCHEQUER BILLS FOR PROMOTING

PUBLIC WORKS IN GREAT BRITAIN.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the ExcirEQUER,
the House went into a Committee on this suject.
The NOBLE LORD then stated, that the object was to
move that his Majesty be empowered to flit ect an issue of
Exchequer-bills fur carrying on public works in Great
Britain. It Was unnecessary for him to remind the Com-
mittee of the state in which a great part of England was
placed towards the close of the last year, or to state that
much of this arose from the distress which prevailed
amongst the working classes. He was aware that any
measure such as that he was about to propose was only a
slight palliative to the evils to which it was to be applied.
It would require a much more extensive remedy to cure
such evils as those of last year. It would require a revi-
sion of the state of the laws affecting the poor, in order
to see whether they could guard against such disastrous
consequences ; but it they looked to the state of the poor
laws, for it was from a careful revision of those laws
that some effectual remedy must be devised, it would
be found that an amelioratiou of those laws would
at the present moment rather increase than dimi-
nish the pressure upon the people. He would not say,
therefore, that Government were prepared with any such
measure, seeing that its effect must be to increase that
pressure which was already to he so heavy. Ile was afraid
that if any alterations were made, they would take a wrong
direction and would rather tend to relax than strengthen
the operation of those laws. Under these circumstances, it
appeared to him that the lesser evil would be to advise that
an issue of Exchequer-bil:s be made, to be granted in loans,
for the purpose of carrying on public' works in Great
Britain. He would not say that the whole suns proposed
to be issued would be called for ; but if they looked to the
experience of former issues, they would find that there was
a demand for them, and that they had been productive of
much public benefit. There were grants of this kind made
in 1817 and 1823, and on each occasion with considerable
advantage where the money bad beers applied to proper ob-
jects. Where the aid of such grants had been resorted to
to promote private speculation, it had failed, and had
tended to injure that class to which tie parties belonged,
as it only increased the evil of over-production. This,
• however, would not apply to the cases of roads and bridges,
canals and rail-roads, by which public advantage would be
derived independently of the means of employment thus af-
forded to the labouring poor. The machinery fur the ap-
plication of such grants was already in existence, and
his proposition was to give 1,000,000/. of Exche-
quer-bills, for the purpose of piomoting such works as
he had alluded to. It would of course be the object of
the Commissioners to Make such grants where the works
were most necessary, always preferring those parts of the
country where distress was known to exist. He knew it
might be said, that where necessary works were to he carried
on, money might be easily obtained on good security.
That was true, but it was also known that individuals
were unwilling to embark their money or time in works
which, however necessary, where there was a prospect
of only a small profit; but by money advanced in this
way, many useful works might be undertaken with great
advantage to the country. Experience had shown that.
the public had not lost by such grants as this. Good
security was always taken, and the money was repaid,
and with rather more interest than could be obtained on
Exchequer-bills in the market, but that was not the ob-
ject. The great object was to promote the public good,
by useful works, giving at the same time employment to
the labouring classes in districts where distress may pre-
vail. The Noble Lord then moved that his Majesty might
be enabled to direct Exchequer-bills, to en amount not
exceeding 1,000,0001., to be issued by Commissioners in
Great Britain, to be advanced, under certain regulations
and restrictions, for the completion of works of a certain
nature, and for the employment of the poor in parishes in
Great Britain, on due security being given.
After a few words from Mr. WADBURToN,
:Nit-. ROBINSON said, that he regretted to learn that
the Noble Lord found the country to be not in a satisfac-
tary condition. He would riot object to the grant ; for he
thought it would do neither harm nor good.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER still that
the pl'eii.flt proposition had the recommendation of giving
sellef without interfering in any degree with the adminis-
tration of the poor-laws.
Mr. PAGET said the great cruse of the existing evils
was the sudden abstraction of capital from the hands of
the middling classes, caused by what was called Peel's Bill,
and he thought that neither the present measure nor any
me :sure would do good, unless it was one which had the
effect of inceeasing the capital which employed the labourers.
The vote was then agreed to, and the report was ordered
to be brought up to-roomw (this day).
On the motion oi; Mr. STANLEY, the Lord Lieutenants
in Ireland Dili was read a second time, with the under.
stamliwg that the discussion should take place ongoing into
Committee.

The other Orders of tl* Day were then Illsposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock.