The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-12 00:00:00

1:4-1E SUN, toNDON, 174i4AIRUAitV 12, is:io,

Noble Marquis, with that candour of character which so re-
diaricahly distinguished him, had informed the House that if the
original instructions had been acted upon, the CommisSioners
would have had tp answer aciOirdiria tii the Re ltifd doli,tt by
Mr. Stanley in his instructions to the Duke of Leinster, the
first Commissioner. This was not the first time that the Com-
missioners b 44 made these eisertionS. ha thebapers published
iatt yog., In L' oi,i'espendenee IsetWeeti Sir Henry Hardinge
and the Board of Education in Ireland; the Comniissiciners
asserted that it was absoliitelY tiedeStai* that same rileans er
other should ht devised to obtain the information required.
The reason they gave in support of this was that it was expe-
dient to put an end to the Kildare-streetSociety; so far as
public contributions Wete necessary. Ile had taken the pains
to refer to a Report of the Commissioners of the Irish Educa-
tion Inquiry of 1824, with respect to the number of Protestants
attending the Kildare-street Society's schools in the province
of Ulster. It appeared from the Report that the number of
children attending those schools amounted on the whole to
53,967; namely, about 29,900 Roman Catholics, and 26,000
Protestants—in short, in the proportion of fifteen to thirteen.
In making this statement he did not mean to contend that the
Roman Catholic population of that province did not exceed the
Protestant in a higher ratio than 16 to 13. He had also an-
other authority on this point—namely, the Report of the Pub-
lic Instruction Committee—which showed the proportion to be
as 62i to 371, or as fifteen to nine: If this. statement were
correct no man could say that the system had worked well, for
if the number of Protestants attending the schools had de-
creased, the Commissioners quite established a case against
them. He had also a return which had been sent to him by a
Right Rev. Prelate in Ireland. He had only received it
yesterday. It was a return relative to the condition of a
rural deanery in his diocese. He should not mention the
name of the party from whom he had received it, but he
should be most happy to give it to any Noble Lord who
might require it. From the return it appeared that there
were ten national schools within the deanery referred to.
These schools were attended by 1,964 Roman Catholic
children, and by not one Protestant child. Within the same
ten parishes, constituting the deanery, there were sixteen
scriptural schools. Scriptural schools ! What an antithesis
to national schools " Why, good God," continued the
Right Reverend Prelate, "is this England ? Is this Great
Britain, a Protestant kingdom, in which we are to be told
that there are scriptural schools as contradistinsruished from
national schools ? But such, unhappily, is the case." In
the sixteen schools to which he had last alluded there
were 537 Protestant children ; somewhat more than one-
fourth of the number of the Roman Catholic children at-
tending the schools in that district. Of the Roman Catholics
attending the Society's schools in the deanery he rejoiced to
say that there were no fewer than 145 in number. He did not
pretend to say that it was a rare example. He had had
other returns made, from which he inferred that the result
would be of the same character, though perhaps net quite to
the same extent. In the face of such statements as these,
would the Noble Irish Commissioners skulk behind the plea
that had that night been set up for them, and refuse to answer
the question of the Noble Earl ? He (the Bishop of Exeter)
knew that it must be extremely painful to the Noble Duke
to be prevented by any cause from giving such answers as he
no doubt would be able to give if he could ascertain the facts
on which to proceed. If the House were to present an address
to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would desire these
Commissioners to make the inquiry on this point, then he
trusted the Noble Duke would no longer object to
give the answers. What had the Noble Duke's col-
leagues said on this subject ? His Grace the Arch-
bishop of Dublin in answer to a memorial presented to him
by the Dean and Chapter of his Cathedral made use of ex-
pressions to the following effect :—" He thought that the
Protestant Clergy ought to give the system a fair trial, and
offer no opposition to its adoption until both Protestants and
Roman Catholics had had the opportunity of deciding whe-
ther any better means of accomplishing the objects they bad
in view could be devised." A Right Hon. Gentleman, now
Lord Stanley, had said that his desire was to adapt one system
to children of different creeds. Whether or not this object
had been gained was the question to be decided, before it was
possible to pronounce whether the system had proved success-
ful or otherwise. A great majority of the children educated
at the Kildare-street schools were Protestants. These schools
had completely failed with respect to the Roman Catholics.
The Board of National Education was consequently instituted
to remedy this failure--an- end which it was in the progress of
securing most completely. In these circumstances, lie was
willing to put it to the Noble Marquis whether he would rest
the fitness of the is-resent system on the facts of the Commis-
sioners ? At the same time, he would take upon himself to
show that the statements of those gentlemen were anything
but facts—that they were not true ; at least to the extent of
one half.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Noble Marquis
would consent to his proposition.—[ We understood the Noble
Marquis referred to, the Marquis of Lansdowne, to say, " Go
on.") In further support of the view he was taking of the
matter, he would cite the authority of Mr. Inglis—a man li-
beral in all his views. That gentleman said nothing more de-
trimental to the interest of Protestantism, or more unfair, was
ever thought of, than the system of education as administered
in Ireland. He did not quote these expressions as an autho-
rity, or intend to oppose them to the experience of the Noble
Marquis. With this he shr uld conclude his observations on
the first question proposed by the Noble Earl (Roden) ; in
the other question, something had been said relative to the
perpetuity of the present system. He believed the Noble
Marquis had stated something about national funds being
applied to support national education. He (the Bishop of
Exeter) should not have been so much struck with that phrase,
if one of the Noble Marquis's colleagues, the Secretary for
the Home Department, had not suggested that it was neces-
sary to subdue the licentious and thoroughly demoralized state
of Ireland, and the aptitude of the Irish to commit murder, by
education. That Noble Lord had also stated that funds were
to be obtained from a supposed surplus of the Irish Church to
maintain a system of education. In order that there should
be no mistake on this point, he (the Bishop of Exeter) would
state to the House where his speech was reported to have
been made. It was made at a public meeting at Bristol, held
in honour of the Noble Lord in question. This it was that
made him more alive to the Noble Marquis's observation, which
he thought indicated that some such course as that referred to
by his colleague was about to be adopted by the Ministers. If
the present system were to be continued he most sincerely
hoped that a fair, full, and dispassionate inquiry into the matter
would be directed, and that all the allegations and recommen-
dations contained in the Report of the Commissioners would
be found to be true, before considerable additional annual
charge was thrown upon the country. He also hoped that be-
fore any measures were adopted a Committee of that House
would be appointed to inquire into, and to thoroughly sift to the
bottom, the workings of the present system. In proposing this
course lie would not conceal from their Lordships that he felt it
would be the easiest thing possible to prove to their Lord-
ships that the national system of education in Ireland had
been made the instrument of the most mischievous political
agitation.—( Hear, hear.) Another evil of the present system
was, that it frequently compelled Protestant children to witness
the ceremonials of a religion which they were bound to regard
as superstitious and idolatrous. That both these evils would
be proved to a Committee he did not for a moment doubt, and
lie again repeated that he hoped the House would appoint a
Committee before it adopted any measures on the subject. He
k new an instance of one school of 512 scholar ••
of which were four monks. After two o'cl-0&. the Priests
taught the scholars the Roman Catholic Catechism. In the
school-house a political meeting was held to arrange about
the tribute, and here also a dinner was given to Mr. O'Con-
nell. A bust of the same Gentleman was placed in a conspi-
cuous part of the school-room. He knew of another school
which was held within the enclosure of a convent. It was at-
tended by 127 girls, and the teachers were a Roman Catholic
mistress and six nuns. That no Protestant children at-
tended such a school would not be a matter of much surprise
to their Lordships. He should now sit down, relying upon
the hope that his Majesty's Government would in some way or
other take means for prosecuting this most important inquiry.
In conclusion, he thanked the House for the attention with
which they had heard him.—( Hear.)
The Duke of NORFOLK rose to inquire of the Right
Rev. Prelate, whether he intended to intimate that the moral
instruction given by the Roman Catholic instructors was not
equally in accordance with the doctrines of Scripture as those
of the Protestant teachers ?

The Bishop of EXETER said, that what he had intended
to say in the obseriations to which the Noble Duke appeared
to refer was, that in Protestant schools the use of the Scrip-
tures was held to be an essential medium of moral instruc-
tion, whilst in Catholic schools the contrary was the case.
The children in Protestant schools were taught to look into
the Scriptures for all those doctrines and moral admonitions
by which their duty. to God and man was regulated ; whereas,
on the other hand, the Noble Duke would, be felt assured,
admit the correctness of his assertion ; it was held by the
highest Roman Catholic authorities, that to teach Christian
duty and morals by the use of the Scriptures, was highly un-
advisable and mischievous.
The Duke of NORFOLK had never heard of any autho-
rities of the kind.
The Bishop of EXETER would refer the Noble Duke to
the authority of Dr. 'Doyle, and also to that of Dr. Murray.
The Earl of WINC HILSE A repeated his opinion, that
any system of education not framed upon Scriptural grounds,
must tend to the extinction of the Protestant religion in the
country, and the consequent destruction of the empire.
Lord PLUNKET said that there were one or two points in
the Right Rev. Prelate's address which he could not pass over
unnoticed. The Right Rev. Prelate regretted that the Com-
missioners had not made any inquiries as to the relative num-
bers of Catholic and Protestant children who attended the
schools under the new system ; inquiries which they had not
been required to make, and in -which, if they had made, they
would in his (Lord Plunket's) opinion have departed mate-
rially from what was their duty.—(Hear, hear !) The object
of the Commission was to provide a common means of educa-
tion for the population of Ireland, without any religious dis-
tinction whatever. Now if any inquiry as to the religion of
the children in the schools was permitted, it would at once
foment jealousies anal party feelings. If, therefore a formal
motion were to be brought forward to effect such inquiries, it
would,
if acted upon, produce nothing else than discords, and
all the very mischiefs which it was intended to avoid.—( Hear,
hear.) He must say, he could not repress his surprise at hear-
ing the Right Rev. Prelate speaking of the mischiefs of agita-
tion. He did not know what mischievous agitation the Right
Reverend Prelate might refer to ; but this he did know,
that a great deal of mischievous agitation had peen sled
throughout Ireland, to prevent the Protestants from sending
their children to the schools now provided for them, and that
the object of the Commission had been grosvly misrepresented
and libelled, for the purpose of fomenting this agitation.—
( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had said that he had
been struck with a great degree of horror on reading the dia-
tinction which had been made in the communications he had
received, between National and Scriptural education. He

6driaurred with the Right Rev. Prelate that this was a most
iniproPer distinction, a distindtioti ;'bleb . struck him (Lord
Phinket) with disgust and abhorrence. saut he woold ask;
vil;id Weret ey s lip liad.made this distinction?—( Hear, hear.)
fßrolgmhtsviihocm*''
were theY tdrijenigskinert of Education ? No such dis-
pasoriitdetlnT
tinction had been drawn, or attempted td he' m:16,, by them.
lie drsiii all hig lnedrrilaticll; tsho first deviseci the distinction.
T1411,1;117
ihini:Raedifs,eot rupthtehisandOisrityhrn'cotion
Corrlelsr
lietttettii d Ntitidrial and a ScrOttfal system in a Cin:Stian
country.—(dfit's kt " No; bd.") He tiiought, if li recol-
lected rightly, that it was when tilti flight Rev. Prelate wits
reading the letter from his anonymous correspdtident that these
nidknarties of distinction were first used. If he was mistaken
he should be very Odd to he set right. He would ask the
Right Rev. Prelate for an ansWef tai the subject, though he
certainly should not stake his ( Lord Pitititiet's) ease upon the
Right Rev. Prelate's answer.—( A laugh.)
The Bishop of EXETER explained that the distinctive
terms of national and scriptural education had certainly been
used by the Right Reverend correspondent to whose letter he
had referred, but he was quite certain that not only the Noble
Lord (Plunket) himself, but every other Noble Lord con-
nected with Ireland, knew very well that the distinction
was quite in common use, and perfectly well understood
there.—( No, no, and hear, hear.) He had received letters
from several other Bishops, containing the same terms of dis:
tinsoion.
Lord PLUNK ET was very sorry to hear it. He knew
that the new system of education had been a good deal can-
vassed and talked of, but he never had heard used the distinc-
tive terms which the Right Reverend Prelate had so properly
deprecated. All he could say was, that he was very sorry such
a distinction should have been made at all ; certainly it had
never been used by any person connected with the Board.
His Noble Friend had stated a certain number of applications
—he believed the number stated was 244—and he (Lord
Plunket) had heard of 246 applications. His Noble Friend
having made that statement, the Right Reverend Prelate
asked would his Noble Friend give up the entire question if
he should not be correct in that statement, although his
Noble Friend had not stated that as the only ground upon
which he rested. But the Right Rev. Prelate's zeal far sur-
passed his logic when he made such a proposition. Now he
wished,, he was most anxious, to bear from the Right Rev.
Prelate how many applications were made. If the Noble
Marquis had, according to the proposition of the Right Rev.
Prelate, stated not the entire number, but half the number,
then he would be declared to be quite wrong ; but if the Noble
Marquis did state half the number of applications, would the
Right Rev. Prelate admit that he was half wrong ?
Bishop of E X E TE R— Yes.
Lord PLUNK ETT—The Right Rev. Prelate said " Yes."
Ho could not ascertain whether that was an affirmative or a
negative.
Bishop of EXETER—Yes ; it is an answer to a question.
Lord PLUNKET could not understand the monosyllable
unless accompanied by some explanatton. He now wished to
call the attention of the Right Rev. Prelate, and of the
Noble Lord who had proposed this question, to another point ;
he wished to call their attention -to that which had been said
by the Noble Earl (Lord Winchilsea), who declaimed with
every appearance of sincerity, and who he believed really
felt what he said upon the subject, of the mutilation of the
Scriptures.—(Hear, hear.) This had been a very popular
topic in Ireland, and nothing had been more warmly remarked
upon than what was declared to be the mutilation of the Word
of God. The Right Rev. Prelate, whose zeal equalled that
of the Noble Earl, but who in wariness exceeded that Noble
Lord, had at a very early period abandoned this position.—
( Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had abandoned very pru-
dently the position, that extracts from the Scriptures were a
mutilation of the Word. It had been reported and re-
reported in that House and out of that House ; brit the Right
Rev. Prelate had declared that from the constitution of the
Board it was impossible that they should agree in extracts
from the Scriptures The Right Rev. Prelate had prophecied
that a Board constituted of persons of such different creeds
never could discover materials upon which they could quite
agree. Never was there in ancient or modern times a pro-
phet so falsified by the event as the Right Rev. Prelate.—
( Hear, hear.) Those members, whom it was supposed would
never have amalgamated, had accorded together, and made
extracts from the Scriptures, which were now published, and
he would challenge the Right Rev. Prelate, or any Noble
Lord, to take up that book of extracts, and then lay his hand
upon his heart, and declare that there was any thing but sound
morality and strict scriptural doctrine contained in those ex-
tracts.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Duke, his Noble
Friend, a distinguished member of the Roman Catholic
Church, and whose moral conduct and Christian feelings
would reflect honour upon the members of any Church, had
stated what were the feelings of his Church respecting the
reading of the Scriptures; but then the Right Rev. Prelate
knew better than the Noble Duke what the opinions of that
Noble Duke's Church on the subject were.—( Hear, and
laughter.)
Bishop of E ETE R—No.
Lord PLUNKET did not say that the Right Rev. Pre-
late had asserted so much ; but the conclusion he drew from
the speech of the Right Rev. Prelate was, that he did know
better than the Noble Duke what were the opinions of Ro-
man Catholics upon this point ; but really he was still more
disposed to subscribe to the declaration of the Noble Duke as
to the sentiment of Iris community, than to yield to the high
authority of the Right Rev. Prelate upon the same point.—
( Hear.) He was glad to know on what authority the posi-
tion was established, that the Scriptures had been prohibited
in the national schools. He had never heard any reasonable
person (he would repeat it, " reasonable person," although
the term had been cavilled at that evening), who maintained
that the Scriptures should be used as a school-book. After
school hours the parents or teacher could instruct the children
in the Scripures. It was objected to the system followed
in the national schools, that it was an anti-scriptural
system. He would be glad if the Right Rev. Pre-
late would lay his finger upon the printed extracts to show any
part of them which was unscriptural, or any part of them which
misrepresented the Scriptures.—(Hear. )
Lord CLONC U RR Y observed that, about sixty years ago,
sums were granted for the maintenance of the Protestant
Charter schools. These funds were intended to rear up chil-
dren in hostility to the religion of their parents. Many
knew that, within the last fourteen years, those schools had
been suppressed. They knew that they had been stigma-
tised with vices the most atrocious, and that their masters had
been put upon trial for the pollution of their scholars. The
whole of that system was founded upon bigotry and unchari-
tableness. On the total failure of the Charter schools, a
system was proposed to be established, to be carried on, as
it was said, without any religious distinction. The persons
who proposed this, applied to several persons, and amongst
others, lie subscribed, under the idea that education would be
given to the people without any religious distinction. A
short time after, it was declared to be a sine qua non that
the Bible should be read as a school-book. If their Lord-
ships would look they would find that the Bible then in gene-
ral use, was one that issued from the press of the King's
printer; and in the introduction or dedication there was lan-
guage reprobatory of the ministers of the Catholic religion. It
was quite impossible that the Catholic clergy could allow this
to be distributed amongst the children, or used by their flocks ;
and for this reason also, that they do not sanction the use of
:he Bible, without note or comment, by the vulgar. They,
therefore, set their faces against the Kildare-place Society.
Ss soon as it was found that the Catholics objected to that
society, persons joined it who had never before interested
themselves in the education of the people at large. That Society
was then joined by persons who, though they do not frequent
Protestant churches, cannot forgive the portion of the commu-
nity who continue to go to mass. The Catholic population of
Ireland was six millions ; and for the education of the Catholic
clergy at present a sum less than 10,000/. a year was granted.
Was it to be supposed that respectable persons would devote
themselves to education in college which must afford them
such a paltry support as that sum could give them ? It was
astonishing-, under such circumstances, to find men of such
learning, such good Christians, and such well-educated pastors
amongst the Catholic clergy of Ireland ; and it being considered
too, that all the property intended for education had been taken
from them, he would not say whether justly or otherwise. No
persecution, it was confessed, had diminished the number of
Catholics. Now then that the population of Ireland was Ca-
tholic, it was their duty to state, that not only should the
Catholics be educated upon their own terms, but their clergy
also. Trinity College had been greatly endowed ; it had a re-
venue of 140,000/. a year. If that college were thrown open
to all religious persuasions, the country would be safer, and the
people ;happier, and their Lordships would not be tormented
with motions, which, though well intended, would not lead the
people to respect that House, to which naturally they should
look up for protection.
Lord MELBOURNE could not hut certainly agree in
thinking that unless they wished to introduce discord where
there was now tranquillity, they would not, by pressing for
such a classification as was sought for, introduce that division
into the schools under the national system which unfortunately
prevailed in so many other places. Undoubtedly, if the Noble
Lord opposite thought proper, he might seek for a return such
as he desired, but that House, as it wished to foster tranquillity
and cultivate peace in Ireland, would not accede to it.—( Hear. )
An observation had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate
which it was important to ndtice—he stated, that the propor-
tion between Catholics and Protestants ought to be given ; that
it should be laid before that House, because upon that hinged
the system ; and it tsould be a test of its success. If there were
riot a large proportion of one sect, then the system had failed,
and if there were a large proportion, as compared with the
population, then it had succeeded. He denied the proposition,
he did not admit the inference. The great object with which
the measure was introduced, was to give as general a system
of education to the great proportion of the population of Ire-
land as they could find it possible to do.--( Hear, and cheers. )
It was in the highest degree desirable that the Roman Catho-
lics and Protestants should be educated together.—( Hear.)
With that view was devised and framed the present system
The great object was to bring them together. With that view
they offered the whole population of Ireland a joint system—
they respected the faith of both, they respected the religious
education of all.—(Cheers.) But if, through fanatical enthu-
Siam, if, through the delusion of prejudices, one party abstained
front taking advantage of what was offered, could they, on that
account, declare that the system sirould be rejected? He, for
one, would say that they were not bound to withhold it from
the other.---(Cheers.) Because the system was rejected by the
obstinacy of Protestants, he would not be the party to refuse it
to the Roman Catholic population who were willing to accept
it. Hear, and cheers.)
Lord RODEN replied.—The House then adjourned.

COMMITTEES•
The following Gentlemen compose the Committees ap..
pointed last night :
ARTS of DESIGN.—Mr. Ewart, Mr. Morrison, the Lord
Advocate, Mr. Pusey, Mr. Parker (Sheffield), Mr. Wyse; Mr,