The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-23 00:00:00

IRISH CORONERS' BILL.

The Report of the Irish Coroners' Bill was brought up.
Mr. SPRING RICE moved, that the clause respecting the
qualification of Coroners should be omitted.
Mr. R. MARTIN thought it desirable that the Coroner
should possess the qualification required by this Bill. It was
said. this was an ex post facto law. He did not know that' it
would be wrong to pass an ex post facto law to effect an im-
provement in the administration of justice. .11e,'however, con-
tended that in point of factthis was not an ex post facto law, as
several Acts required tlrat such officers, both in England and
Ireland, should be capable of such amercements as might be
inffictetlon them for their misconduct in office. To omit this
clause would be to defeat the object of the Bill.
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON spoke, but was inaudible.
Mr. GOULBUkN thought that the mere fact of a Coroner
not being worth 2001. a-year in property.ought not to be a dis-
qualification. • He hoped the clause would be withdrawn with-
out a division.

Mr. DAWSON said it'was desirable that the Bill should
pass with unanimity, and he hoped his Hon. Friend would not
press the clause.—The clause was then withdrawn.
Mr. RICE made an inaudible observation upon the regula-
tion of the power of the Cor6ner to serve writs.
After a few words •from Mr: R. MARTIN, the Report VMS
agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Wed-
nesday. •
SCOTCH- PRESS. -

Mr. ABERCROMBY rose to withdraw the motion of which
he had given notice, for copies of the correspondence between
the Lord Advocate and Mr. Hope, relative to the case of
Borthwick. From the noise which prevailed
.in the gallery;
we were unable to collect the reasons which the Hon. Member
assigned for withdrawing the notice ; but we understood him
to say, that he should renefwit early in th next Session, and
that he should-then prosecute the inquiry with all the zeal and
ardour in his power.
The LORD' ADVOCATE said that it was his intention to
afford every information, and all correspondence connected with
the case should be preduced.
Mr. -ABERQROMBY thou lit it right to say that the Noble
Lord had intended.to support his motion.
• COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day for going
into a Committee of Supply. • - ' •
• The House having resolved itself into a Committee,a resolu-
tion was proposed for granting a sum of 9,2301. for defraying
the expense of building churches and purchasing glebes in
Ireland.'

Mr. HUME opposed the vote. He thought that the public
had right to pay this money when the Church of Ireland
was .overtiowing with riches, and the object was to increase iti
nunklicrs. There had been an order made for returns, moved
by Right Hon. Member for Waterford, as to the en:rmoits
revenues of that Church, and until they saw what those reve:
nues were, he would not consent to a vote like the present. The
property of the Church of Ireland had been computed as equal
to the whole revenue of•the Clergy, independent of tithes ; and
at a time of such public misery as the present, he could not con:
ceive how the public could be asked to pay the expense of
building new Churches. - He hoped' that in the next Session an
inquiry would4be gone into, in order to bring a portion of that
property to meet the emergencies of the State. With these'
views he would not grant a shilling from the public motley for

such a purpose.:, and he therefore moved the reduction of the
whole sum proposed.
Mr. (iOULBURN said that he. ihOuld not now enter into
the subject, which the Hon. Member had thought proper to
open. . Whenever he should bring_ forward his motion, he
should be prepared to meet whatever arguments might be
brought in support of the proposition that the Church devoured
the property'of the country. The present vote was not to he
paid to the Clergy, but for building, churches ; and when the.
Hon. Member conceived that the church was only for the be-
nefit of the professors of religion, he would not. find many to
support him in his extraordinary opinions. The church was
intended for the benefit of the people, and for that reason it was
supported. With regard to the distress in Ireland, the vote
had been reduced two-thirds on that account. Last yeal% it was
30,000/., now it was under 10,0001.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY said the time famine and starva-
tion were prevailing was not the moment for such an expendi-
ture.of public money. The people ,of Ireland, he was afraid,
would not improve From the example of the richer clergy.
, Mr. S. RICE, without entering into the question of the
ChUrch property, was of a different opinion from the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite. He condemned the policy of build-
ing churches in remote parts of the country where the mass of
the population was Catholic. Nothing could so materially
check the progress cf the reformed religion as to build Protes.:,
tant Churches in the midst of Catholics, and then tell them they•
must pay for their support.
Mr. C2W,Vir YNN could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman,
unless he could persuade himself that because in a particular
place there were only a few 'Protestants, they must be left with-,
out a place of worship.
Mr. H. GURNEY said it did not follow, because the churches
were built, that therefore efforts were made to bring people
into the church. Churches were butt with the money voted by
Parliament, which were falling into dilapidation, no service
being performed in them.
Mr. G. BENNET agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that wherever there were Protestants they ought to have the
means of public worship ; but the question was where the funds
for providing them should be obtained ; whether a sum of
10,0001. should be advanced out of the public money, or whether
it should be supplied from one of the richest churches in the
world, and one which did less duty, and paid less to the sup-
port of the poor than any other. He should oppose the vote,
until the returns moved for by the Right Hon. Member for
Waterford were before the House.
Mr. HUME read a letter from an Under Secretary for Ire-
land, written same time ago, complaining of the conduct of
the Commissioners of First Fruits, and asked if any man of
common sense would trust any more money in their hand ?
Mr. GOULBURN did not know, and. was quite indiffe-
rent upon knowing, the means by which the Hon. Member
had obtained this letter. He knew not whether the Hon. Mem.,
her had the_ answer to that letter in his pocket, or whether he
was aware of the measures which he (Mr. G.) had taken upon
the subject, If he were acquainted with those circumstances,
it would have been but fair for him to
.have stated them. It
would then have appeared that the complaint of the letter was
full.), answered and explained.
Mr. MONCK differed from the opinion of the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen, as to appropriating, the property of the Church
to the expenses of any other branch of the State. But at the
same time he thought it applicable to the budding of churches
and glebe-houses.

The Committee divided—
For the Resolution
For the Amendment

Majority - - -
When we_enternd the gallery, we found Mr. S. RICE on his
legs, speaking on a grant proposed to the Linen Board. He
strongly urged the propriety of spending a part of the vote in
extending the linen-manufacture to the South. Where;er. that
manufacture was established, there was neither distress nor ills.'
turbance. There was not, by the way, a single individual from
'the South of Ireland in the Linen Board.

.Sir G. HILL said, that inquiries were making as to the ex-
tension of the Manufactikre to the South,of Ireland.

Mr. HUME was confident that a great part of the vote
might be saved. In 1821 the salaries amounted to 5,9211. and
these and •other charges, he was assured, would not amount to
one-quarter of the present charges, if they had not been defray-
ed out of the public money. The manufacture was in so
flourishing a condition, that it could fairly be called on to con-
tribute-a share of the expences. The salary of the Secretary
was too great, and the expences of his journies unnecessary.—
Considerable sums had been spent uselessly in patents and ma-
chinery, and the distribution of which was, it was asserted, un-
fairly managed, they being given chiefly to the tenants of the
trustees. _ _ _

Sir G. HILL said a few words in explanation.
The vote was agreed to.
,The next Resolution was for a sum of 2761. to defray the ad-
dfcional expences of the Chairman of the Board of Inland Navi-
gation.
Mr. HUME objected to the grant. The publichad just as
much right to defray the charges of Waterloo Bridge, as to pay
the expences of the Board of Inlind Navigation.
Mr. GOULBURN said, the sum granted to the Chairman,
and to the Directors of the Board, was not more than would en-
able them to discharge their duties.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The sums of 16,4001. for the expences of the Board of Works,
and 17,5001. for Printing and Stationery in the Secretary's,
Under Secretary's, and other Public Offices, were next voted:
The next Regolntion was for a sum of 70001. for the publica-
tion of proclamations and other public matters, in The Dublin
Gazette., and other Papers,
Mr. G. BENNET objected to this Resolution. The sums
voted under this head were applied to the maintenance of a few
Government newspapers, and were,' in fact, a retaining fee to
those newspapers. He held in his hands Returns, from which
it appeared that proclamations were inserted only in a few ob-
scure newspapersb while they were withheld from those journals
which had the most extensive circulation, but the political opi-
.riions of which were at variance with those of the Government.
In some instances, proclamations made one or two years ago
had been inserted in the Government papers. There was
another most reprehensible practice to which 'he wished to al-
lude. It was well known that Solicitors in Dublin were com-
pelled by the Masters in Chancery to insert advertisements
only in particular newspapers connected with the Government.
This was a practice most injurious to the interests of their
clients. He should move, as an Amendment, that the sum of
2,5001. be substituted for 7,0001.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that the circumstance cf old Pre-
clamations appearing in certain Journals was easily accounted
'for. They were inserted at a time when the Editors, from a
dearth of intelligence, had nothing else to fill up their columns,
and they
.were not paid for again by the Government. As to
the selection of particular,newspapers of which the Hon. Mem-
ber complained, he knew not what act could be left to the dis-
cretion of the Officers of Government, if they might not chose
the papers in which they thought fit to insert Proclamations
and other public docurifents-r1!„,.,
Mr. HUME said, the Right-11A. Gentleman' had not at.-
swered the objection of his Hon. Friend. His Hon. Friend
had complained that the Proclamations were not inserted in
those papers which had the greatest circulation. It appeared
from the returns that Carrick's Morning Post paid 1,3001. to
Goveinment for stamps in one year, but not one shilling was
paid to that paper for the insertion of Proclamations or Go-
vernment advertisements. On the other hand, The Duncannon
Paper, an obscure Ministerial Journal—so obscure indeed,
that he (Mr. Hume) had never been able to obtain a copy of
it—received 1001. a year from Government for Proclama-
tibns and advertisements. Only two or three copies of
this paper were published, which were left at the Government
offices. It was idle for the Right Hon. -Gentleman to contend
that the officers of Government ought'to be left to their own se-
lection, for they had no right to make a selection which was at
variance with the public interests. He wished to know from
the Right Hon. Gentleman whether Government had net, with-
in the last year, bought up The Hibernian Journal, and whe-
ther there was not at this time a set of types in his office not
worth 501. for which a large sum had been paid ? He could
corroborate the statement of his Hon. Friend '(Mr. Bennet) as to
the improper control exercised by Masters in Chancery over
solicitors. Mr. Ellice and Mr. Vaughan had been particularly
active in exercising this control over solicitors as to the publi-
cation of advertisements in particular newspapers. He was
sorry to observe that system of partiality and persecution,
with regard to public Journals, which had been carried to so
great an extent in. Ireland, had been in some degree acted
upon in this country, and that he had even received the direct
sanction of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. He would state to the Committee a few
instances, which would enable them to ju.lge of the persecuting
spirit with which this system was carried on in the different de-
partments. The charge for advertisements in the Ordnance

1

frkpaatment amounted, in the year 1816, to 1,3581. Of this sum -
three London weekly papers, which were utterly unknown, and
,of which he (Mr. Hume) had never before heard, The British
Neptune, The National Register, and The London and Pro-
<•inetal Gazette, received no less than 2351. while The Times re-
, ceived only 651. Of the Ministerial daily papers, The Courier re-
ceived 811., The Morning Post 661., and The Sun 581. In the
Navy Office, an obscure weekly paper, called The Guardian, re-
ceived 531. for advertisements, while The Times, which had a
- greater circulation than any other paper in London, did not receive
a single pound. In the department of the Victualling Office, ,
The Times did not receive a single penny for advertisements in
the year 1819. He (Mr. H.) had himself seen one circular of
the Right lion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
-recommending the Officers in the different public departments
not ..to advertise in The Times newspaper. Nothing could
sanction such a system of partiality and persecution.; for, if'
• the-object were to give publicity to these advertisements, why
give them to journals which were comparatively unknown, and
withhold them fronipapers of large circulation, merely betause
the political sentiments of those papers were opposed to'those
of the Governtrient ?
Mr. GOULBURN said he could.not help thinking that the
Honourable 'Member had unnecessarily occupied the time of
- the, House in dwelling upon what he conceived to be a,system
of persecution diredted against The Times newspaper. To
'him (Mr. Goulburn) it was a •matter of perfect indifference
whether advertisements were or • were not inserted in The
Times ; and lie believed there was no Honourable Gentle-
men in that House, acquainted .with the arduous nature of
the duties which devolved upon him as Secretary for Ire-
land, who did not feel that ,his time, must be too much
occupied to enable him to inquire into the history of de-
- zeased newspapers. As to the .observation of 'the 110-
nt.urahle Member that he had not been able to' obtain a copy
of The Duneannon Journal, it seemed to him to be a conclu-
sive argument in favour of the extensive circulation of that
.nArnal, for •.it was well known that it-was difficult to obtain a
• fio:)y.of epaper, which was extensively circulated, at the Editor's
!office. The Ilonourable Momberk argument was.not only un-
. fortunate in proving the,extensive circulation of the paper, but
it was unlucky in another respect, for it shewed that when• people
once got this favourite Journal into their hands, they were not
.„easily prevailed upon to part with it—(A laugh).—The Hon.
Member's intended , attack upon the Duncannon Journal had
proVed the highest panegyric which could be passed upon it, for
is • demonstrated that of all the journals in Ireland; it was the
most extensively circulated, and that its readers were so passion-,
. ately attached to it, that when once it came into their posses-
sion, no consideration could induce them to part with it-
- (A laugh).
Mr. S. RICE said, that the question was not regarding the
merits of any individual. It was, how the public business
could be ,best and most cheaply done. Now it was notorious
that, at present, some papers were kept up for the sake of ob-
taining the public money, while they published otherwise only
two or three copies. There was one Journal ( The Duneannon
Journal) which .was understood to publish violent matters,
and which had been given up the moment that the Government
advertisements were withdrawn. Wherever such a paper was
to be fbund, Government ought to withdraw their lupport from
it ; though it would be proper to retain at all events the Dublin
Gazette.
Mr. GOULBURN could assure the Honourable Member
that measures would be taken for lessening as Much as possible
.the expence of advertising ; but at present the information was
not sufficient.
Mr. HUME was sure that if the Returns which. he had
moved for had been laid on the Table, the House would have
. been able to see what sums had been given to the Editors of
Newspapers, and among these would, in all probability, be
found a continuation of 1001. a year to. Messrs. Cumming and
Hutchinson, which had been first recommended by Lord North-
land.
The fact was, that ,the partiality with regard to News-
papers was notorious ; the sum which advertising cost was more
than double what it ought to be; and he hoped that his Hon.
Friend would take the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. R. MARTIN thought, that if the paper in question
could not subsist without the patronage of Government, it
ought to be given up. There was in his country a Journal
which had often abused Government, and particularly him, as
- a constant supporter of Government. He had applied to have
the Government patronage 'withdrawn from that Journal ; but
:that had not been done; and the Journal would no doubt go
on to abuse him still. - -
The Committee then-divided, when there appeared—
For theeriginal Motion - - 48
.:.For Mr. Bennet's Amendment - - 11
Majority - - - —37
- 2,2001. was then voted for the expence of criminal proiectr,
tions; and 1,5001. for the „apprehending of public offenders.
On the motion • that 1,4491. be granted for the salaries of Lot-
- tery Officers in Ireland,
Dr. LUSHINGTON asked Why, when there was no Irish
Lottery to manage, the salaries of the officers should be con-
. tinned ?
Mr. GOULBURN replied, that, at the time of the UniOri,
the Irish Lottery Officers had been allowed, although the Lot-
tery was conjoined with that of this country, to retire upon half
the salaries which had been paid to them previoOs to the Union.
One of them, the inspector of unlicensed Lotteries, had still
. duties to perform.
.After a fewwords of explanation from Dr. LUSHINGTON,
the grant was agreed to. •
On the motion that 20,0001. be glinted for the Civil Contin-
gencies of Ireland,
Mr. HUME asked why the particular items of this grant had
not been estimated ? They had gone on for ten or twelve years
a y ing 100;0001., without any return of the reasons for which
nt had been paid..
Mr. ,GOULBURN said that estimates would be given next

year.
Mr. S. RICE mould notdivide the House upon the grant in
the mean time.; but he would press upon the House the neces-
• kity of having estimates, as the returns by the Commissioners
stated that many of the services could have been performed at
,snuchlo.vrer rates than those mentioned in the estimates.
Mr. GOULBURN stated, that in some instances the.esti-
mates had been made greater than the recommendation of the
--Cemmissioners, in order to meet contingencies.
The grant was, agreed to ; as was 7,2001. for salaries and ex-
pences of the Commissioners of Inquiry.
On the motion that 20,0001. be grantedfor the expence of
Army Estimates,
Mr. HUME hoped that an account of them would be given
next year.
Mr. GOULBURN replied, that they were strictly for what
they expressed.—Agreed to.
Mr. GOULBURIC;iI moving that 1,2001. be granted for
two years' allowance ft r the late Governors of the House of
Industry in Dublin, felt himself bound to offer some •explana-
, tions. That claim had ben formerly rejected by the House,
upon the ground. that one of the Governors was in the receipt
of 5001. a year from another office. He brought it forward
_ now only upon the grounds of necessity and long services--
some of them full 30 years,.and all of them nearly so. He de-
tailed the particulars of the four remaining cases with Consider-
: able. warmth, and stated that he who had the 5001. had been
.omitted..
Mr. W.. SMITH thought-that length of services alone ought
rot to entitle any public servant td retired allowance.
Mr. IIUAIE said, that there could be no good reason for giv-
;ing these Governors a retired allowance, as it had been found
that one had done the business better than all the five. Pen-
.:ions to the Governors of Charities were never heard of in Eng-
lan d.—Three of the Gentlemen under consideration 'ere clergy-
men ; why not give them church-preferment?
Mr. PEEL thought they should not be too severe in such
cases, as lenity _Might enable Ministers to make more extensive

red u &ions. •
Mr. G. BENNET and 111 n .S. RICE recommended Church-
Freftrment as the best way of rewarding these Governors.
The grants of 28,0001. to the Watch, and Police Establish-
ments of Dublin, and of 3,5001..t0 the Directors, Officers, &c.
of the Irish Inland Navigation, were agreed to, as tOas the
grant of 3,0921. Os. 2d. to the Temporary. Officers of the Court
of Exchequer in Ireland.
Mr. GOULBURN stated to the Committee, that' he had
brought down with him an estimate for a further grant of the
sum of 200,0001. to the distresses of the Irish people. lie was
himself ready to move the grant now ; but if it were the wish of
the House, the motion should be postponed to Wednesday, he
should defer to its opinion.—(An .unanimous cry df " Now,
row !" pervitded the House.)
The grant was then moved and carriedfiemine contradicentc.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved that a sum not exceeding
280,0001. should be_ granted 'to meet the Civil Contingencies
.-extraordinary.
ar. HUME objected to the grant. -He ridiculed the idea of dp-
haldingthegreatness of this county by a relay of diplomatists with-
. out duttes.to perform through all the petty States of Europe.
It was a mockery to speak of duties, when Europe was governed
by, a leaguewhen the Holy Alliance,--in other words., when
the three great military Powers of the Continent arranged every
part icular, And did not allow-these well paid reporters of passing
events to say a single word. He shoulil therefore move, that a
sum 0f10,00431.. be deducted from the original Charge.
Mr. AR i;UTHNQT.defentled the grant The diplomatic
services of the country in many instances were diScharged by
the connex.ions of the great families, who had little property
themselves—who sought no means of accumulating wealth by
their situations, but who alqo ought to be indemnified from
being losers by the duties they so beneficially and, honour-
ably discharged.
BENNET opposed the grant, as didlls. MONCK.
The Marcittis of LONDONDERRY assured the Committee,
that not, a single
.sfiilling of these contingencies went into the

-pockets of the official persons employed in the diplomatic duties'
of the country.
After a few words from Mr. GURNEY, the Committee then
divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment - - 12
.Against it - - -
Majority forthe original motion - - 50
The next vote was 1g,7-001. for incidental expences to be paid
to the Kings of Vain, Pcrtugal and the Netherlands, for as-
sisting in putting down the illicit traffic in slaves by means of
the Mixed Commission.

Mr. BERNAL objected to the grant as entailing an unjust
and ,unnecessary expence "on thiS -Country; but he .did not
know whether, under the circumstances, he ought to make any
proposition on the subject.
Mr. W. SMITH said a few words on the same side.
Sir 0. COCKBURN defended the grant.
Dr. LUSHINGTON. moved, as .an Amendment, that the
sum be xeduced to 17,2001.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT supported the original grant.
After a few .words from Lord LONDONDERRY and Dr.
sHir.,NoToN, the Amendment was ncgatived without a

'The following Resolutions were then agreed to::--
10,0001. for defraying the expences of „the Out-Pensioners
of Greenwich Ilosphal.
4,5ta;/. for three of the Commissioners,appainted to Inquire
into the Revenue in TrelarAl.

30,000/. towards defraying the eapence of Building Courts
of Justice in Westminster Hall.
971/. to enable his Majesty to make allowances-to ths.Servante
of.her late Majesty Queen Caroline.
12,500/. on account of the allowance that would have been
due in October last, to her late Majesty Queen Caroline, 41.) be
applied in the payment of her Majesty's Debts.
7,3001. to Mr. Henry Burgess' in compensation for the.loss
of time and expences incurred by him in the prosecution of his
plan for the more speedy forwarding of letters.
12,8841. to William ,Gausey and J. H. Robisson, two Arne.
.ricart loyalists, who were not contemplated in the votes .of last
Session, but were in the same situation with .the parties then
provided for.
The House having.resumed, the Report was ordered,to be re-
ceived this day.
The other Orden( were then disposed of; .and the House ad-
,journed at ONE O'CLocx this morning. '