The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-10 00:00:00

Mr. GRANGER wished to ask Lord John Russel

whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
during the present session to bring forward any measure
,to relieve clergymen who had seceded from the Estab-
lished Church against the penal consequences of ecclesi-
astical censures, incurred by preaching in other places of

worship.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention
of her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill on the
subject referred to.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for
Kilmarnock had given notice•of his intention to intro-
duce a Bill on the subject.
COMMITTEE ON IRISH POOR-LAWS.

Mr. HENRY inquired if it was the intention of the
Government to propose an enlargement of the Committee
on the Irish poor-laws; and also whether it was their in-
tention to propose that Mr. Bright be a member.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was intended to enlarge
the Committee, and that it was. intended to add the name
of Mr. Bright.—(Hear, hear.)
THE REVENUE.
Mr. J. B. SMITH asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether any steps had been taken by the Go-
vernment to carry out, wholly or in part, the resolution
of the House of the 30th of May last, proposed by Dr.
Bowring, and whether the gross receipt of revenue,
averaging about 7,000,0001. per annum, which has
hitherto been stopped in its progress to the Exchequer,
will in future be paid into the Exchequer, and placed
under the direct authority and control of Parliament?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that steps had been taken by the Government to carry
out the resolutions proposed in May last, as far as
was practicable. With respect to the latter: part
of the question, it was not so easy to give an answer—
steps were taken, as he had stated, to carry out the
resolution whenever practicable; but he could not under-
take to say that all the surplus received into the Exche-
quer would be voted by Parliament.
HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND)

ACT.
On the motion that the House go into Committee upon
the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said he was compelled to say
that he had not yet heard a single argument which had
convinced him that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act was necessary in Ireland. Whatever might be the
opinions which were entertained by persons with refe-
rence to the prejudices and feelings that existed in that
country, be must say that there were no feel-
ings of disloyalty now existing. There might
have been some such feelings at one period,
but he believed they had been grossly exaggerated
by interested agitators. There could be no doubt that
political agitators were now looked upon with great dis-
gust in Ireland. The suspension of this Act would have
the effect of putting down constitutional agitation, which
was the best safeguard for the liberties of a free country.
He would ask the free-trade party in that House
not to assist the Government on the present occasion
and deprive the Irish people of every vestige of their
liberty for the time might come when the same course
would be used against themselves for the purpose of
putting down all expression of opinion in Lancashire
and Yorkshire. —(Hear, hear.) He hoped it would
not be permitted in Ireland, because it would tend
to the subversion to everything like political discussion
or liberty.—(Hear, hear.) Considering the wretchedness
which now existed in the west of Ireland, he was of
opinion that if the Government relief measure was not
adopted thousands would die of starvation in a day.
—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances he
felt constrained to vote for that measure,
but until they went to the root of the evils of that
country, there would be continual agitation, and annual
applications for votes of the present nature. Last ses-
sion Lord John Russell had expressed his opinion of
the necessity of some great measures for Ireland, and he
felt disappointed that the Government had not come for-
ward with them. The only great measure this session
appeared to be the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Aet.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that the Noble Lord
would come forward with some comprehensive measure
to remove the evils which the bad legislation of this
country had produced in Ireland. The question now
before the House had been fully debated by
Members more able than himself, but he thought he
should be wanting in his duty if he did not fairly ex-
press his opinion that there would be no end to votes of
money for the relief of Ireland unless some effec-
tive measures of redress were introduced. The
poor-law was no doubt a good foundation to
begin upon, but there were many other grievances,
such as the aboniinable grand jury laws, which
ought immediately to be inquired into. They
ought to look to the destinies of that country and
come forward with some remedial measures.—(Hear.)
Mr. SADLIER said, he could not think of occupying
one moment of the valuable time of the House in de-
liberating on the imperative necessity and importance of
maintaining the constitutional and rational liberties of
the Irish people wholly unimpaired, did he not feel
strongly on the subject. He acknowledged that
circumstances had arisen, and circumstances might
probably arise, to justify those who might be
jealous in maintaining those constitutional liberties in
all their integrity, in appealing to this House for a par-
tial and temporary suspension of the privileges and
liberties: of his fellow-countrymen. But he did
think there had been no case whatever made
out by her Majesty's Ministers—(Hear, hear)—to justify
them in appealing to this House at this moment for a
further extension of the system now in operation in this
country. He had only to say that, when in 1847, a
flagrant and open system of assassination disturbed and
degraded
certain districts of Ireland, when the

Government felt it to be their duty to ap-
peal to this House for extraordinary powers to aid
in the repression of agrarian crime in the southern dis-

triots, of Ireland, he did not hesitate to respond to that
appeal ; and when, in the last year, political excitement
had been so heightened in various districts throughout
the country, then he thought it but an act of

mercy to many young and hasty men engaged
in the rebellion at that moment, that restrictions

should be imposed upon them calculated to preserve
their honour and their lives. When he thought it his
duty to give his support to the proposition of the Go-
vernment, he did so on plain and palpable grounds. He did

_
say the absence of political excitement was essential to the
industrial progression and social improvement of Ireland;
and he felt that•amid the political disturbance and social
disruption in those rural districts of Ireland, no party suf-
fered so much as the poor labouring classes of that country
—( Hear, hear)--and he felt, that every man, practi-
cally acquainted with the condition and circumstances
of certain districts in Ireland, was bound to give his un-
qualified support to the measure of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. But he believed in no country, or at no time,
was such a matter brought forward as that which had
now been placed before the House. If there
were tacts notoriously public in Ireland to justify
the introduction of this Bill, he should have no hesitation
in giving it at once his unqualified support. If he could
trace anything to justify the Home Secretary in holding
up to the House and to the country any portion of her
Majesty's subjects in Ireland as disloyal or dis-
affected, he should have no hesitation in giving
his support to that Bill. Jf he had any grounds to jus
tify him in apprehending that any considerable portion
of the Irish people were at this moment disloyal
or disaffected, he should have no hesitation in

-; -
giving his unqualified support to this measure, but while
he had no small opportunities of judging of

the feelings of the people in the southern districts of
Ireland, he was bound to say, from his extensive acquaint-
ance with the feelings of the poorer classes in
the proclaimed districts of Ireland, he felt
it his duty emphatically to declare that
those poor people were unalterably attached
to the institutions of this country, and that they were
devoted and loyal to the person and the crown of the
Queen—(Hear, hear)—and if there were any discontent
and disaffection among the people of Ireland. that dis-
content and disaffection arose from the policy of the
existing Cabinet.—(Hear, hear.) He complained of the
grounds on which the present Bill was introduced. It
seemed to him that the letter of the Lord. Lieutenant had
been read for the purpose of persuading the House to
a continuance of the coercive legislation in
Ireland, as calculated to stimulate the industry and to
develop the resources of that country. He had
already said he acknowledged that public tranquillity
and social order were essential to the progress of iu-

dustry in Ireland; but it would be idle and puerile to
contend that the existence of social order alone
ever could secure to the people of Ireland
the blessings and consequences;of industrial occupations.
(Hear, hear.) He averred that if they desired to
scare capital from Ireland—(Hear, hear)—if they de-
sired to hunt from the country the independent and in-
dustrious portion of its population, they would continue
that miserable system of coercion—(Hear, hear)—that
miserable make-shift, they would continue to suspend
the constitution of that country, and to place the people
at the mercy of a political dictator.—(Hear, hear.)
He understood that the measure was introduced as a
social and not as a political measure, and it was de-
decidedly understood also that it should in no way in-
terfere with the question of the repeal of the union.
He had been led to believe that under the suspension of

the Habeas Corpus Act only 120 individuals were
imprisoned, and he believed that only 106
persons were retained in prison under the
same authority. He might indeed cite the expressions
of the Ministry themselves as a reason for opposing the
present proposition. As an evidence of the state of
feeling among the Irish people, he might state that
within the last few months, at a time of the greatest
political excitement, it had been his duty at a public
dinner, in one of the proclaimed districts, to give as a
toast her Majesty's health, and he could say—as
it was indeed his bounden duty—to the House that
nowhere could that sentiment have been received more in
accordance with the feelings of any loyal subject, or
even as her Majesty herself might have desired: He
had also ;in his capacity of chairman, been desirdits of
giving the health of Lord Clarendon, but he found 'from
the temper of those present that there would be an in-
superable difficulty in separating a private and deserved
compliment to that respected nobleman from a general
approval of the conduct and policy of her Majesty's Mi-
nisters, and desirous as he was of paying that compliment
he was compelled, in compliance with the temper
of the people, to give up his design. They could not
forget the manner in which when, in opposition, her
Majesty's Ministers bad, with so much excitement, en-
forced the claims of the Irish people, and
the energy and power with which they had
always entered into any discussion that was
connected - with Irish subjects. He could not
forget the effect with which they had spoken of the ex-
pense of retaining 25,000 men for the defence
of Ireland, in days now long since gone by.
He thought the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment had neglected many opportunities since his return
to office of doing good to Ireland. He ought long ago
to have availed himself of the singular opportunity of
all parties having but one feeling upon the subject
of Ireland, and being willing to give him support
in the introduction of a comprehensive scheme calcu-
lated to remove the miseries and redress the griev-
ances of the people of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord took occasion, during the last
session, to protect and defend the policy ot
Government ; and in speaking of the distribution of
millions of the public money in Ireland, he threw the
responsibility and blame with regard to the expen-
diture of the funds upon the gentry and rate-
payers of Ireland. He said they had within them-
selves the power of diverting into more productive
channels the immense fund that was voted for the
relief of the Irish distress, but the Noble Lord
omitted to inform the House that no discre
tion was vested in the people of Ireland with
regard to the appropriation of the fund. He
forgot to inform the House the fund was
entirely and absolutely at the control of the
Government. The conduct of Government with refer-
ence to the condition of the labouring classes of Ireland
was calculated to create in that country a feeling of
discontent and dissatisfaction, and a want of
confidence in the resources and resuscitating fertility of
the land—a feeling which would take a long time to
remove. Could anything be more disheartening to
the enterprising and industrious man in Ireland than
the exhibition which three Members of the Cabinet had
piesented- to the House during the present
week ?—(Hear.) Essaying to discuss subjects which
Must always be of vital importance to every interest in
Ireland, what had been their course? The Home Secre-
tary for Ireland assured them the question of
the area of taxation in connexion with the
Irish poor-law was one of such vital consequence,
and involved so much in difficulties, that it
was impossible to legislate upon the subject,
and the matter must bo referred to a
Committee, but during the same week he informed the
House that under the existing law the Poor-law Cow-
missioners had the power of treating that difficult ques-
tion and adjudicating upon it. And in the same week
ho told the House that the vital question was to form no
portion of the investigation of the Committee about to
be appointed. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had occasion to advert
to the appalling destitution of certain districts in
Ireland, and he furnished them with statistics
of the misery and sufferings of the people
with which they had all been previously
too familiar, but what was his surprise when the Right
Hon. Gentleman in the same breath confessed that he
had come to no conclusion on the subject, nor had he
any proposition or remedy to propound with the view of
mitigating the evil.—(Hear, hear.)
CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.
A messenger from the Lords appeared at the table and
stated that their Lordships were desirous of having a
conference with the Commons on the subject of en-
grossing Bills. Members were accordingly selected to
conduct the Conference, and retired to enter upon their
duties.
After a short absence the conference returned, and
Sir GEORGE GREY reported to the House that the
conference from the House of Lords had agreed with
the Commons with respect to the alterations proposed.
Mr. SADLIER resumed his address. He was direct-
ing attention to the course pursued by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer during the present week, with a view of
showing what were the views of the Government towards
Ireland, and he had clearly shown the House that there
were no elements of union`between the members of her
Majesty's Government on matters of vital interest to the
people of Ireland.—(Hear. hear.) The family party of
which the Government was composed placed themselves,
by their respective statements to the House, in the posi-
tion in which the late Chief Baron (O'Grady) of Ireland
once found himself. The Chief Baron was associated in
the consideration of a complex question with Baron Fos-
ter and Baron M'Clelland, and after having heard each
of them deliver his judgment, he briefly declared that
he was compelled to agree with his brother M.Clelland
for the reasons given by his brother Foster—(Laughter)
—and the Noble Lord was prepared to give his reasons
on the affairs of the people of Ireland, for the same
reasons assigned by his Right Honourable relative the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(A laugh.) There was
a sad want of knowledge displayed by her Majesty's
Ministers in the Legislature on the affairs of Ireland,
and of the amount of destitution which the people of
that country were suffering under; and it was because
the people of Ireland found that there was nothing
in the promises of the Government that they had no
confidence in those promises. It was because they saw
no step taken by the Government to draw out their in-
dustrial resources and their manufacturing power, . that
they could not: have any confidence in them; and, he
must say, :if the Noble Lord were to come down to the
House to-morrow, and declare that he had some com-
prehensive scheme for the alleviation of the burdens of
the people of Ireland, and for the removal of her griev-
ances, that he, for one, would nut place confidence in
him. He saw neither union nor habits of business in
the members of the Cabinet, and he did not see that they
brought any information before the House of a satis-
factory nature on Irish questions. He asked, was it pos-
sible that any reasonable or sensible man, accustomed to
business, could place confidence in her Majesty Govern-
ment in relation to Lhe Irish Bills brought into that
House by them? When they found the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary of State for Ireland holding the
various offices of Secretary for Ireland, his position as a
Member of Parliament, and his office of a PoOr-law
Commissioner for Ireland, how, he would ask, could it be
expected that he could discharge in that House the
various duties appertaihing to those offices? He asked,
was it fair that the time of the Right Hon. Baronet
should be taken up by the duties ot a Poor-law Commis-
sioner for Ireland? Either, he submitted, the Right

FEBRUARY 10, 1849,