The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-06 00:00:00

CORN LAWS.

Col. SEALE postponed to the 20th of March the motion
of which he had given notic.! for to-morrow niht respecting
manufactuced corn. We understood him to Ray that he
thought the postponement necessary, as tile House would ba
occupied the whole of to-morrow with the motion of the Hon.
Baronet the Member for Leeds.
UNIVERSAL PENNY POSTAGE.

Lord SAN DON presented a petition front the Corporation
of Liverpool, in favour of Mr. R. Hill's plan for a universal
penny postage. The Noble Lord concurred with the peti-
tioners that a reduction of the postage was desirable, but he
could not go the whole length as to the adoption of Mr.
Hill's Ilan.
PROMOTION OF MARINE OFFICERS.
Lord J. RUSSELL appeared at the Bar, and, on being
asked by the Speaker, " What have you there?" said, " An
answer to the Address of this House to her Majesty, voted on
the 27th day of February last, and presented to her Mas
jesty on the 2Sth—her Majesty will take into her consi-
deration the best means of affording promotion to the officers
of Marines, consistently with a due regard to economy, and
the just claims of the other branches of her Majesty's
service. The Noble Lord then said,—ln moving the Order
of the Day, I think it my duty to state to the House the course
which her Majesty's Ministers propose to take as to the Ad-
dress to which her Majesty's answer has just been read. On
the 27th of February an Address was agreed to by a majority
of 14 on the subject of promotion in the Royal Marines. That
Address was sent to the Department to which it re-
ferred, and, on the recommendation of that department
Ministers thought it their duty to take the whole subject into
their consideration. The Address was not a solitary one, for
a similar Address respecting promotion of officers in the army
was carried towards the end of last year, certainly in a very
thin House—the thinnest that could entertain any question—
the majority being 21 to 19. But there were also several
notices of motions upon the same subject in the last Session,
which pressed the matter upon the attention of the Govern-
ment in such a manner as that they feel it necessary to
bring it before the consideration of the House.—( Hear, hear.)
It is according to the usual practice of the Constitution that
reward and promotion should proceed from the Crown, and I
that the check and controul of the public expenditure should
proceed from the (louse of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) That
proceed
is the ancient practice of the Constitution seems no lesa
conformable to reason, and to the just balance of the powers of
the Constitution, than it is conformable to the ancient and in.
variable custom. —( Hear, hear.) The officers serving her
Majesty, whether in the military or naval service, or any
other, have a right to look to the Crown for reward or
protection. _(Hear, hear.) There can be no more grateful
duty for the Sovereign than to distribute these rewards and
prumotiseis which meritorious conduct or long service may
-seem to require.—( Hear, hear.) On the other hand, if there
is any excess in the expenditure, the people of the country
have a right to call upon the representatives in the House of
Commons to check and controul that expenditure, and re-
strain any prodigality. But if such motions as these were
to succeed one after another, it is obvious that this salu•
tary rule would cease to operate—the Officers of the Nayy
or Army would go to the Admiralty or to the Horse Guards,
and represent their claims, as a class, or perhaps their
individual claims, and being refused they would expect to re-
ceive frcm the House of Commons those honours and that
promotion
. which they had failed to obtain from the Executive
department of ti-.e State. I feel that it is my duty to call the
attention of the House to this circumstance, because if such
precedente are set on occasions on which general attention is
not directed to the subject, owing to the fact of there being
either a thin House, or the attention of the House being en-
°Tossed by some other subject, a very great and mischievous
change would take place in the Constitution of the country—
namely, that the Crown would be invested with the power
of curbing, checking, or denying, and the House of Commons
with that of granting rewards and promotion.—( Hear, hear,)
Coesidering the subject, therefore, in this point of view,
her meiesty's Ministers have thought proper to adviie
her Majesty, that no answer abould he returned to this
Address, expressing the willingness of the Crown to
comply with the wishes of the House of Commons, but
at the same time recommending that a Commission or
a Committee should be appointed, composed of persons ilis-
tiivuished by their rank, both in the naval and military
servrcs, Frihined with a certain number of civilians,
to eons der tb.e %14.01 p crstipn aq !laded promotion, and

the present system of rewards conferred for naval and military
services. With respect to this latter part of the subject, 1
would wish to call the attention of the House to another cir-
cumstance which occurred in the debate that took place the other
night with respect to the promotion of the matines. My Hon.
Frtend who sits near roe, the Secretary of the Board of Ad-
miralty, said, that in deference to the wish of the House of
Commons, as expressed last year, the Board of Admiralty had
taken the subject into consideration, with a view to further pro-
motions amongst the Marines, but with a% iew to public economy.
One gentleman certainly who formed the majority, said the
wishes of the House of Commons had been mistaken ; that
the intention of the House was that economy should not be
consulted in carrying into effect their wishes. Their wishes
were that promotion should be granted to officers of marines,
and that ma this subject it was not necessary to look to no
principle of economy in the service. It b•:hovcs us to consi-
d, r, and before long the House will have to consider
on what principle these puldie services are to he car, ied on.
For many years past, since the year 1825, these services have

In en carried on i,y the several department, of the Executive
Govtrnincot with a careful view to economy in the public ex-
pealiture. In 1821, the lion. Member for Kilkenny moved
an Address to the Crown, expressing, among several other
thing:, that economy should be carried out to the greatest ex-
tent in the military and naval departments of the coun-
try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) An amendment was moved by
another Hon. Member ( Mr. Banks, we understood). Lord
Londonderry declared that the sense of the motion and
amendment was the same, but he preferred the ameAmcnt,
as he thought the motion implied censure ; but in the general
circumstances he fully concurred with the Address. At the
end of that Address it was stated—" And further, that his

Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that every possible
saving that can be made without detriment to the public inte-
rest may be effected in those establishments which the country
is bound to maintain for the safety of the United Kingdom ;
more especially in the military expenditure, and by a constant
and vigilant controul and superintendence over that and all
the other departments connected with the administration of
the ample supplies voted by this House." Sir, I conceive
that every Government since then has been bound by the
terms and spirit of that Address. The Government of
that time carried economy to a great extent ; that of the
Duke of Wellington pursued it, and that of Earl Grey car-
ried out the principles of retrenchment, and a reduction of the
public expenditure. If economy and retrenchment were not
to be their guiding principles, it could be no definition of 0.-se
power of the Crown, but that extension of liberality should
proceed from the Crown, and be made to the Hbuse by the
recommendation of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) If the
house was prepared to say that a more Tule should
be adopted—that meritorious officers should receive more
ample rewards than hitherto, the whole of tho subject should
he loaked into; a comparison of the amice3 made by com-
petent persons, and the result laid before the House. Then
the House of Commons would have before it, first, the question
of what increased allowance should be made to these 'officers
in the naval and military service, and then the question which
should never be lost sight of, that the House would re-

quire to provide for that increased expentlitare.—( Hear.)
When the question was one of reward to a particular service,
the House was all generosity ; but when the question was
considered as regarded the taxes, the disposition of the House
was to deprive the Crown of those means by !which alone
such increased rewards could be given.—( Hear.) He had
thought it necessary to state so much to the House, because
he thought the Government would not do its duty if
they allowed one motion after another to be carried
applying to one particular service, and not call the atten-
tion of the House to the whole subject. The way they
proposed to do so, was to appoint gentlemen who had been
known to the country from their high character and great talents
in the service of their country in both services, with whom should
be joined some civilians—thatthey should take the whole subject
under their consideration—that they should report to the
House; that if necessary there should be a recommendation to
the House, and that then the House should decide upon the
whole subject in a general manner ; and that they should not
give rewards from a liberality or a laxity of principle, which
would make a most important and pernicious change in the Con-
stitution of the country—one which would naturally shake
the officers look for nothing but delays and hardships f'rom the
Crown, and, on the other hand, expect generosity from the
House of Commons.—( Hear, boar.) He trusted the course
taken by the Government would bring the whole system before
the House in a fair and impartial manner.--( Cheers.)
Mr. GO UL BURN did not rise for the purpose of entering
into any lengthened discussion on the topics adverted to by
the Noble Lord ; but as he was ono of those who approved of
the course which the Noble Lord pursued, and gave evidence
of his profession by voting with him, he was anxious not to
lose that opportunity of expressing his concurrence in the
principles which had' been laid down by the Noble Lord—
( Hear, hear, hear)—and of lending his humble authority to
impress on the House the importance of not interfering by
votes of that description with the discretion of a Government
in the promotion and emoluments of the different branches of
the public service.--( Hear, hear.) He held that as above all
the paramount duty of the Government, and he held also it

was equally the paramount duty of the Government to exer-
cise the influence they possessed within the walls of the
House, to carry into effect the principles the Noble Lord pro-
lesees.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord must also give him
leave to say, that if the Government, in the discussions that
tools place there on questions of that nature, .professed or
evinced to the public symptoms of vacillation and uncertainty
with respect to the course to be pursued—( lear, hear, hear
from the Opposition Benches)—it was in vain for the Noble
Lord to call upon Bon. Gentlemen either on one side of the
House or another to support the principles he advocated.—
(Cheers. ) When Gentlemen mei in that Ilouse individuals
closely connected with the Government voting in a minority
against the Government on questions of this nature, the No.
ble Lord might look in vain fo: that support which he (Mr.
Goulburn) and others on his sAe of the House would be al..
ways ready to afford it on questions of this nature, beoanse in-
stances of the kind that occurred on a precedios evening did
more to curium his arguments and yowee than all the oppo-
sition he might meet with iti a fate way.—( Loud cheers.)
Gentlemen on that (the Tory) side of the House, who had
opposed what he (Mr. G.) considered the right view of the
question, were taunted by the other side, because they were
supposed to have Marine constituencies which might have
influenced them upon the question. Many of them repelled
the imputation. But if there was one Hon. Member more
likely to be influenced by such a consideraticie than another,
it was the Right Honourable Gentleman, who, in the Go-
vernment himself, voted againet the Government upon this
question.—( Hear.) Llo (Mr. G.) had no wish to pursue
this question further. It was only for the general
interests of the public service that he told the Noble Lord op-
posite that on questions materially effecting the public wete
fare, if the influence of the Government is not eau-eyed to
promote the view they think to be right, they may in vain
appeill either to majorities or minorities--their practice on the
one side would outweigh their efforts on the other.
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Right Hon. Gentleman having
referred to the vote of a gentleman connected with the Go-
vernment, I hope the House will allow me in one or two words
to explaic that circumstance. Undoubtedly if that gentleman
had spoken to me previously to the debate, I must have told him
my opinion that it was impossible for him, holding the situa-
tion which he did, under the Government, to act contrary to the
course of the Government upon this point. But I knew nothing
of the vote until after the division, when he informed me, that
'he had considered himself bound in honour to that particular
course of conduct, from something which had passed between
him and the officers of Marines upon a former occasion.
Now, it always appears to me, that upon difficult ques-
tions with regard to the individual votes of Members of
the Government, the better course is to enforce, as far as
possible, the authority of the Government ; but that whore a
gentleman considered himself bound to a curtain vote, from
any kind of engagement, not to exercise great strictness to-
wards him on the subject.—( blear, hear. ) I may mention
that though the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) Toted on
this occasion for the defence of the prerogative, some seventy
or eighty of his adherents voted the other way. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. H UME said that after the speech of the Noble Lord,
he felt-called upon to offer some explanation, which ha would
give very shortly. He felt the more particularly called on to
explain, after the reference which had hem made to the motion
on the same subject in 1828. If the Noble Lord would look to his
(Mr. [l.'s) speech in 1822-4. Laughter on the Tory side)—lie
would see that, on that occasion, he (Mr. 1-1.) brought for-
ward the treatment of the Royal Marines as con-
trasted with the Army ; and he showed that great
partiality existed on the part of the Government at
that time with respect to certain branches of the
public service—that sonic corps were particularly favoured,
whilst others, who did more service, were neglected; and that
the Marines especially, whose services were of the very
greatest importance, were passed by. He thought that unjust,
and he brought the matter before the House in order that the
matter might be corrected.—( Hear.) On more than one occa-
sion since, he had • brought before the notice of the
House the very rapid promotion of some without service,
and the emoluments which particular regiments enjoyed, quite
disproportionud to their utility. Ile did not think that in doing
so, or in the vote which he gave the other night he wes in any
degree infringing on the Royal prerogative, and the NoVe Lord
rs
who brought forward the motion the other night, would hear
testimony that he had recommended him to withdrew the latter
part of
ieresolution.ywere satlilsenehae,ldbythlavteiLtg
seas
oun well-grounded statements,
duty
tre
if e t' s,
thatH iusenjustioe had been done towards a large body of her Ma-
jesty's subjects, to take steps to redress the grievance. In
saying thie, however, he did not think that the House
should dictate as to the extent to which these promotions
should be carried. lie admitted with the Noble Lord that
the power which the House undoubtedly possessed in such
cases should be judiciously exercised, oe it would be au abuse.
His desire was that partiality should not be shown towards
one class of her Majesty's subjects, and injustice towards
another. He did not like a system which conferred large
promotion and little pay upon those who did little service,
while it refused a uleritorious and deserving body of men the
just rewards to which they were entitled.
Capt. WOOD was desirous of swing the reason why
he had not voted upon this question the other night. He had
risen several times ill the course of the debate, but unfortet•
nattily was not able to catch the Speaker's eye, to state that
the Secretary of the Admiralty had in big opinion fully mado
out his case, The reaeoo 004 he die net give hie vote, how.
ever, In feecorr qt the amendment of the Chancellor of the
Eectiorpter wes, that be did not think it was a constitutional
mode of dealing with the question.--( Hear. )
Messengers from the Lords brought up certain aocuwents,
which were laid on the table,
Sir E. CODRINGTON
wished to express his full appro-
bation of the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, and his
regret was that the subject had been delayed sq 1.130.
frequently alluded to the condition of the we,S.Z '10°1%4.46
officers, and rod Fed inst4nel'of §.*qer§ t ho Wad