The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-30 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OP LORDS, AUGUST 29.
In pursuance of a Message from the Commons, the
Lords ordered a copy of the evidence of Doctors Ru.se!
and Brown on the subject of Turton's Divorce to be sent
to the Commons, and it was immediately delivered to the

Commons' messenger.
FRENCH TROOPS IN BELGIUM.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved that there
be laid on the table an account of the expenses of erecting
the fortresses on the frontiers of Belgiumand Holland ; of
the proportions in which the expence was borne by the
Powers who contributed. In making this motion, he
wished to take the opportunity of putting some questions
to the Noble Earl opposite, on the subject of the withdraw-
ing of the French troops from Belgium. The Noble Earl
had stated the other night that the French Commander,
Marshal Gerard, had received positive orders to withdraw
with the French troops from Belgium, as soon as the
Dutch troops should be withdrawn within the limits of
their own frontiers ; and the Noble Earl added, that he
had no doubt but that these orders would be executed, and
that the French Government would honourably perform
its engagements. But he had since understood that the
Noble Earl bad added, in an under tone, which he did not
hear, that some portion of the French troops might remain
in the Belgian territory. In consequence of an intimation
conveyed to him, that the Noble Lord had added
something to that effect, he had, after the adjournment of
the House, applied to a Noble Baron opposite, and inquired
in what sense he was to understand what the Noble Earl
had said, and what was the interpretation which the
Noble Baron put on the words of the Noble Earl ? By
that Noble Baron he was informed, that positive orders
had been given to withdraw the French troops from Bel-
gium. And he had been the more confirmed in the belief
that such was the statement of the Noble Earl, from a
similar statement having been made by a Noble Lord in
the other House, viz., that the whole of the French troops
were to be withdrawn from Belgium. With what amaze-
ment, then, did he afterwards learn that Prince Leopold
(for he could not be considered as King of Belgium,
since he had not been as yet acknowledged by Ruasia,
Prussia, and Austria) had requested that a guard of ten
or twelve thousand of the French troops should continue
to occupy Belgium after the Dutch troops had withdrawn.
He understood that Prince Leopold had requested that a
considerable proportion of the infantry of the French
army, besides two brigades of cavalry, and eight batteries
of cannon, should still remain in possession of the country.
The Noble Earl bad spoken on a former occasion of what
this country had a right to expect ; and he would now
ask the Noble Earl whether this was what the country
had a right to expect, after the engagements said to have
been come under by the French Government, and the as-
surances given by the Noble Earl that these engagements
would be fairly and honourably performed? For what
purpose or with what object could these troops be re-
tained in Belgium ? Prince Leopold had not as yet been ac.
knowledged King of Belgium by Austria, Prussia, or Russia,
and he had no right to demand these troops as a body
guard. Prince Leopold le Brave had no right to such a
guard ; and it was quite clear that the Ministers of this
country had been bamboozled—(A laugh)—by this ar-
rangement. It was perfect perfidy to call on the troops of
France alone to occupy Belgium in this manner. If any
troops at all were required, the French Government alone
ought not to have been called upon to furnish them, but
the matter ought to have been referred to the conference;
and our Ministers had not done their duty at the confer-
ence, since they had not bound Prince Leopold down as to
what was to be done in an emergency of this kind, which
was very likely to have occurred. It ought to have been
referred to the conferences here to consider whether in such
a case the occupying troops should be Prussian, Russian,
or Austrian, or some of our own troops ; for, of all the
Powers, France was the last that ought to have been al-
lowed to furnish troops for this purpose. It was evidently
a subterfuge, a pretence, on the part of the French, for the
purpose of having the occupation of Belgium continued by
their own troops. He repeated, that the matter ought to
have been settled by the conferences here, and that some
previous arrangement should have been made in case of
the occurrence of this emergency. He had on a late oc.
casion been complimented by the Noble Baron opposite
(Holland) for the great satisfaction which he had expressed
at the assurance that the French troops were to be with-
drawn ; but then, when he expressed that satisfaction,
lie understood that all of them were to be withdrawn ;
whereas, as it now appeared, the result was totally dif-
ferent, since so large a body was still to be retained.
Be would refer the Noble Baron to what had been
the conduct of the Ministry of this country in 1793, during
the progress of the then French Revolution, with which
the Noble Baron was particularly conversant—he alluded
to the Noble Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, or,
perhaps, he ought rather to say the Noble Deputy Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affiirs, or Principal Secretary,
for be understood that it was the Noble Baron who di
rected the proceedings of the Noble Lord who ostensibly
held that situation. —(Hear, lieu.) If the Noble Baron
would please to refer back to a debate which took place
in Paris at the period to which he had adverted (the de-
bate as to the fate of Louis XVI.) he would find that a
certain Monsieur Egslite, a friend of the Noble Baron,
had said on that occasion: .14 vote pour la snort sans
phrase ( L'Abbe Sieyes : Mort, et sans phrase.) So
in thb, case his language was : .le vote pour la retraite
sans phrese—a real and substantial and not a pretended
retreat—A i.etraite sans phrase et sans condition, and
then it might be hoped that it would be sans collision.
The Noble Baron had cuteplimented him on the satisfac-
tion which he had expressed, but then that was under the
impression that the intended retreat was such as he had
described, for that was the only species of retreat with
which he would be satisfied.,—(Hear, hear.) But now
one word as to the fortresses. In the protocol on their
Lordships' table, it was provided that the negotiators for
the four Powers--Ilussia, Austria, Prussia, and Great
Britain—should meet and determine which of these for-
tresses were to be destroyed, and that, it woe to be pre-
sumed, without any interference on the part of the French
Government. But now there was reason to fear that the
cloven foot of France bad been thrust into the negocia-
tions, or was to be thrust into them. Now this kind of in-
terference be deprecated as one of the worst that could be em-
ployed. The expence of erecting these fortresses had
been borne by Holland and the Allied Powers, and France
bad nothing to do with it, and it was only on the suppo-
sition that there was to be no interference on the part of
France with respect to the disposal of these fortresses that
lie could hope that any good could result front the coo-
ferences on this subject. Ile dwelt the more on this, as
be understood that France had required that six of the
fortresses should be demolished, and that two of them
should be the fortresseo of Courtray—(A laugh)—and
Phillipvilie ; and there was reason to apprehend that the
French Government was engaged with Prince Leopold and
the Belgian Government in some negwiations isoles,
having for their object the demolition of the whole of the
fortresses.—(Hear, hear.) Complaints had frequently
been made of the inconvenience attending the line of con-
duct which he bad lately pursued in occasionally putting
questions to Ministers on the subject of our foreign afEtirs.
But, whatever might be aaid on that head, it was clear
that his labours on that side of the House had net been
altogether inefficient, for he understood that the Noble
Earl had thought proper to apply ti; the Noble Duke
(Wellington) near him far his opinion regaeding these
fortresses ; and if the Noble Duke had given lout his
advice, and if that advice should be followed, that woulsi
satisfy him. But in regard to the period of 1793, he
would refer the Noble Baron and the Ministers to a letter
craitten by Lord Grenville in answer to one sent him by
the French Foreign Secretary, requesting some explaua•
tiona. That letter was written in circumstances very
similar to the present, and it would be well worth the
while for Ministers to refer to it, as affording a good rule
for the guidance of their own conduct atthe present moment.
o En soutient toujours la violation des traites et des 4iroits
de nos Alters, quoiqu'on y propose une negotiation d'autant pina
illusoire qu'elle est recul6e, alum quo Per wnation des Pays Bat
par les armees Francoises, a l'epoque indeteruni,e, non seule-
anent de La fin de la guerre, mais eoeore de la conioUation de ce
que vous appellez la libertC! des Beiges.
" Je cross eependant devolr vous avertir Pry termes tees poslas,
en reponse ace que vous ineditez au sujet de tos preparatifs, quo,
dans les eirconstanees presentes, jions allow continuer A prendre
toutes les mesures que noun jugerons . propos, a note; metre en
Etat de defendre la surete, la tranquillise, et les droits de ee.pays,
a An qu'O. guarantor crux de floc ,Allies' eta mettre un from
acs
VCELI, d'arnbition et d'aggrandisment dangereui.: en tout tems
linoaur.
ele ereste de PEurope,mais qui le sot:. devenu bins d'avantage
lux ce qu'elles soot soutenu par la prepagation,de i.rmcipes
destructeurs de tout ordre social."
Such was the letter of Lord Grenville, and he hoped the
Noble Earl would attend to it, and pursue a smilar line of
conduct. He liaised there would I,e no truckling in this
case, as the favourite journal of Ministers had expressed
it—(he was sorry that the Noble and Learned Lord,
his place)—but he hose.
was not then in
Brougham,
there would bpern_aocitpruiecsk;linagndinttbh
tois
aggressive arms, ;Levelling and
be no yieldingocaL:Fe case-..that t there would
democratical course ef the
conferences respecting these fortresses, .1; ,
EID --reet.ona would •
be taken from France, and no interference on the part ofl
The quer..ti%ovnesrc,Lhen, which he
that Power permitted• first, whether,
wished to put to the Noble Earl
and, se-
there bad been Loy interference the part of France in'
regard to the, demolition of shows f naforretqr etre
se:
condly, whether, in consequence
Leopold, or for any other reason, a porti on of frtohme French
troops WAS to continue to occupy the Belgian territory, in

direct contradiction to the engagements of the French Go-
vernment, and to the assurances of the Noble Earl, who
pledged himself that these engagements would be fairly
and honourably performed ? He concluded by moving for
an account of the expences of erecting and maintaining the
fortresses, and the proportions in which they were borne

by the several Powers concerned,
Earl GREY—Knowing how hopeless it was to dissuade
the Noble Eari (Londonderry) from pursuing that incon-
venient and irregular, and, as it might be, dangerous
course, which he had, of late, adopted, he would not ap-
peal to the Noble Earl's discretion.—(Hear, hear.) But
after all the irregular and inconvenient proceedings of the
Noble Earl, and all the variety of irregular questions which
the Noble Earl had put on the subject of the negociations
relative to the affairs of Belgium and Holland, he would
submit to the House whether the Noble Earl had been, on
any one of these occasions, more irregular than he was at
present? In the first place, the Noble Earl had made this
motion without any of that courtesy which it was usual to
evince on these occasions, and without the slightest notice
that he intended to bring forward this motion, or to put
any questions on the subject of the demolition of the for-
tresses, or the withdrawing of the French troops. [Mar-
quis of LONDONDERRY-4 gave notice of the motion on Fri-
day.] The Noble Earl said that he gave notice of the
motion on Friday ; but if he did, he (Earl Grey) was cer-
tainly not aware of it, and there was no intimation of it
whatever in the paper of Notices and Orders of the Day.
He was totally unapprised of the intention of the Nob!e
Earl to bring the motion forward on the present occasion.
To the motion itself, however, he bad no objection. But
he put it to the House, whether it was proper, upon the
slightest of all grounds, to be putting questions respecting
negociations and proceedings of such vast consequence that
peace or war might depend on theirdetermination—whether
it was proper, merely on the ground of loose public rumours
and statements in the Newspapers, or of the vain imagi-
nations of suspicious minds—(Hear, hear)—to be thus
continually putting questions on matters of such import-
ance, and on which so much depended ?--(Hear, hear.)
It was not his intention to follow the Noble Earl through
the variety of topics on which he bad touched, for he
would be guilty of a breach of his duty as a Minister of
the Crown if he did so. But as to the questions put by

the Noble Earl, he had only to refer him to the answers
which he had given to the same questions, in substance,
when the Noble Earl had put them on former occasions.
The Noble Earl had asked when the French troops would
retire from the Belgic territory, to which he had answered
that it was not for him to say when they would retire,but
had said at the same time, that this country had a right to
expect that they would retire when the object for which
they had entered Belgium should be attained—that object
being the repulse of the Dutch troops from the Belgian
territory. To this he added, that he relied on the honour
of the French Government for the due performance of
their undertakings. More than this be could not say.
He had stated the fact that intelligence had reached his
Majesty's Ministers, that the Marshal commanding the
French troops had received orders to withdraw with the
troops from the Belgic territory. As to what had been
doing or what bad occurred since, he must decline at pre-
sent saying anything whatever on that head. He did say,
as the Noble Earl had intimated, that it had been proposed
that a part of the French troops should remain for a time.
But whether the French were justified by their engage-
ments in leaving any portion of their troops in the country
after the Dutch had retired, or whether the Ministry of
this country had done their duty by requiring proper
engagements from the French on this head—or in in-
sisting on the performance of those engagements when
entered into, would be subjects hereafter to be con-
sidered when their Lordships should have the whole cir-
cumstances of the case before them. He had already
stated what it was that this country had a right to expect,
and he added, that he believed that the French Govern-
ment was dispOsed fairly, and honourably, and faithfully
to perform its engagements, and further be could not say.
As to the negociations on the subject of the fortresses, he
must decline saying a single word on that subject at pre-
sent. But he might advert to one little circumstance in
reference to what the Noble Earl had said respecting the
fortresses. When the Noble Marquis spoke so confidently
of the fortresses that were to be demolished, he declined
mentioning the names of the whole of them; but he bad
pronounced the fortresses of Courtray and Phillipville to
be two of them. Now it happened that at Courtray there
was no fortress.—(A loud laugh.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON—The fact was so;
there was no fortress at Courtray.—(A laugh.) But as
to himself, he had been the officer employed by his late
Majesty to superintend the erecting and maintaining of
these fortresses on the part of this country, and he had
continued in the discherge of that duty up to the present
moment. It was, therefore, the duty of the Noble Earl,
as the head Minister of his present Majesty's Government,
to apply to him as the officer entrusted with the super-
intendence of these fortresses, and to call upon him for
such information as he could give on the subject; and it
was his (the Duke of Wellington's) duty to wait on the
Noble Earl and give all the information in his power.
He had accordingly attended on the Noble Earl, and had
given all the information that he could. But it was not
altogether for the sake of giving this explanation that he
had obtruded himself on the attention of the House at
this time. Ile was anxious to say a few words on some
other .topics that had been touched upon—particularly
that of the occupation of the Belgic territory by the
French army. He was bound to believe that the King
of France intended to do his duty--(Hear)—he was
bound to believe so, as he was not only upon terms of
friendship, but he might say, in alliance with our own
Sovereign. But it had been said, that King Leopold bad
requested the King of France to leave a part of the French
army in Belgium—he called him King Leopold because
he was King of Belgium, and ought to be called so in this
House, because he had been recognised as such by this
country. —(Marquis LONDONDERRY-He was King of Bel-
gium in this House.) Certainly, he was to be considered
as King of Belgium in this House, and ought here to be
talked of as such. But if King Leopold had called upon
the King of France to leave a part of the French army
in Belgium, that was no good ground for leaving them
there, nor would the King of France be justified in com -
plying with the request.—(Hear, bear.) He could not
look on so large a portion of the French troops left in pos-
session of Belgium in any other light than as the advanced
guard of the French army—(Hear, hear)—and he could
not consider the withdrawing of the main body of the
Feench troops from the Belgic territory, when so large a
portion was left behind, as a fair performance of his en-
gagements on the part of the King of France. He did
not know, however, what was intended to be done on this
bead ; but if a body of French troops should be left in
Belgium, he would say that it was not consis'ent with the
engagement oldie King of France, nor with any principle of
the law of nations, and he could consider it in no other light
than as an attempt to place the Belgian Sovereign under
subjectiou to the Crown of France.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
He could not say whether the Noble Earl and his col-
leagues had anything to do with the choice made of Leo-
pold to be Sovereign of Belgium, but be believed that
ha might say with confidence that it had never
been intended that he should, as Sovereign of Bel-
gium, be dependant on France.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
King Leopold was an elected Sovereign—elected by the
people of Belgium, and why should he require French
-troops or foreign troops to remain within the limits of
the Belgic territory ? It could not be for the exclusion of
the Dutch, for the Dutch troops had retired, and Belgium
was secure against their i',2turn by the intervention of the
Lvc Powers. What, then, unlit: he want foreign troops
for exce,,t to protect him against any rerxtion on the part
of his own subjects, or against a revolt of his own troops?
There did not appear at present to be any ground for
anlj.ing fur the aid of foreign troops to protect him against
either of these contingencies. but suppose King Leopold
were in danya- from either of the causes which be had men-
tioned, still the principle of non-interference opposed the
employment of any foreign traaps, and was it not interfea
fence to call in the aid of the foreign troops against his
own revolted subjects or troops ? He had stated, on a
former oeeaalop, that considering the disposition of the
people of Belgium, it would be improper to compel them
o place themselves again anader the sway of the King of
the lalatherlands, or to force any of that House of Orange
back upon .t.;:em, in opposition to their own inclinations.
But one thing was 4ear, that if .force of arms were to be
i 2mployed at all to impo-s.-. overeign on the Belgians, that
force r)ught to be exerted not in fr.,your of Leopold, but in
favour of the King of the Netherlands, g some other
branch of the I-louse of Orange. But the syaten; of in-
terference was altogether wrong, although particular eir-
ctlmatances might make 02.-:240nal exceptions. For in-
stance those might be cases in witieL the occupation of a
,country by foreign troops might be justified, 2:0 ip the case
of France, in which an army of occupation had remaicaad
for aanae time after the last wee. P.ot there the occupation
was by the zanies of eight Powers, and not by the army of
any one Power; a.a.d care was taken that the Powers more
immediately bordering on France should have no troop.
in ,1114. country. There were no Spanish troops, no Sar-
dinian troops, and no Netherland troops in the army of
by the French troops, troops,
oiceaupipeastib7tlheeft
Austrianin France. Then came the occupation of
had protested. and afterwards of Spain
Heße,aunnsottboth of which
. this country
remonstrances made by this country against the occupation
speak particularly as to the
of Naples by the Austrians i but he might refer to the

correspondence on the subject of the occupation of Spain
by the French troops, and there it would be found tht
this country had strongly remonstrated against it, and had
intimated to the King of Spain, that if the occupation of
the country by the French should be continued much
longer, the British Ambassador would be withdrawn from
Madrid. Then came the occupation of Portugal by our
own troops in 1827, and it was well known that that .oc-
cupation ceased immediately when the occasion of it had
ceased. He mentioned these things in order to call to the
recollection of the parties concerned what had been the
principles acted upon by this country and other Powers on
recent occasions similar to the present. It might have
been justifiable in the King of France to send French troops
to Belgium at the request of the Belgian Sovereign, in
order to repulse the Dutch from the country. But the
moment the Dutch troops retired, the French troops ought
to remain in the country no longer.—(Hear, hear.)
The motion was then put and agreed to.
DUCHESS OF KENT'S ANNUITY.
Earl GREY moved the second reading of the Duchess
of Kent's Annuity Bill. He was not aware that it was
incumbent on him to say any thing on the subject of this
Bill, except merely to state its provisions. It was an ad-
ditional grant of an annuity of 10,000/. to the Duchess
of Kent, who, considering her situation, had, he must
say, been but scantily provided for. Of this sum 4,0001.
a year was for the Duchess herself, and 6,0001. was to
be allowed for the maintenance and education of the Prin-
cess Victoria ; and as the annuity was made to depend on
the lives of the parties, it was provided that in case of
the death of the Duchess while the Princess was alive,
4,000/. of the annuity was to cease ; and, in case the
Princess should die, leaving the Duchess alive, then
6,0001. of the annuity was to cease. Comparing this with
what had been done on former occasions, it could not be
considered as any thing approaching to an extravagant
allowance.
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.
On the motion of the Marquis of WESTMEATH, the Irish
Lands' Burning Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH gave notice that on Thurs-
day he would present a petition from certain ship-owners.
Earl GREY, in the absence, through indisposition, of
the Noble Secretary for the Colonies, moved the second
reading of the Canadian Justice Administration Bill.
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Thursday.