The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-07 00:00:00

p as :G

Earl JERMYN replied, but in so low a tone of
be inaudible in the Gallery. He called upon the House not
to be deterred from doing its duty by the Noble Lord—the
question was a very important one.
Capt. ALSAGER moved the second readirg of the St:
Anne's, Walbrook, Marriages Bill. Read a second time and
ordered to be committed.
The House then proceeded to a
CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.
The LORI) ADVOCATE proposed a conference pith
the Lords on some amendments which their Lordships had
made in the Letter- Stealing ( Scotland) Bill.
The conference was agreed to, and persons appointed to ma-:
nage it on the part of the Commons, and to draw up reasons
against the amendments.
In answer to a question from Sir R. PEEL,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the next Supply day would be
Friday.
The Order of the Day having been moved for taking. into
further consideration the report of the Registration of Births
Bill,
Sir E. CODRINGTON rose to bring forward his motion
for a return of all officers in the navy who have been deprived
of their half-pay without their consent, or without inquiry before
a court martial; and also a return of the names of all officers
whose half-pay had been restored to them without any rea-
sons being stated for so doing. All he wanted was the papers.
He wished to know why officers, more than any other class of
men, shou'd be punished and deprived of their half-pay without
inquiry, and without being confronted with their accusers.
He trusted he should have the support of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) upon this occasion, and also of the
Noble Lord (Stanley.) The Right Hon. Baronet the other
night contrasted the situation of the Clergy, in point of cmo-
lument, with that of the messengers and doorkeepers of that
House, and asked whether a Clergyman was to be placed in 3
,worse situation even
.than that of their own messengers.
He might put the same question with respect to the officers
of his Majesty's navy. The oldest Post Captain in the navy
got no more than 2341. a year, and the two other classes a few
pounds less than this, and they were liable to be scratched
off the list without any reason being assigned. He hoped
some feeling would be shown for the officers of the navydias
well as for the Clergy. He knew an old Commander
had been fifty years in that situation, who had no more tir
1821. 103., and no Commander could ever have more than
..1921. 12s. Why put the officers of the navy in a worse'
situation than the doorkeepers of that House? He trusted
be should.. have the support of the Noble Lord (Lords
Stanley) also. That Noble Lord appealed to the House''
the other night as -a .House of Gentlemeni and represented:
to them the peculiar difficulties in which the. Clergyrarff
was placed. He might die, said the Noble Lord, leav'mg
a widow and children without any provision. Ife also
appealed to them as a House of Gentlemen, and claimed
for the officers of the navy the kindness of Parliament. The
fact was that the naval service as now paid was nn expense
to officers. It was very laborious. An officer had to walk
the deck every night for four hours till he became a captain.
And even then those who were anxious in the discharge of
their duty were frequently up all night. But what he parti-
cularly complained of was, their being struck off the list and
deprived of their half-pay without inquiry, and without any •
reasons shown. In all other cases men were confronted with
their accusers. He had been told that in some cases those
who were thus treated were swindlers. If so, let it be proved.
He could not see the motives for such conduct, particularly
under a Liberal Government. He spoke of this matter before,
but the Secretary to the Admiralty gave him no answer.

Mr. C. WOOD—I did not finish my•speech upon the oc-
casion alluded to.

Sir E. CODRINGTON—He would say no7r, as he slid
before, if the officers misbehave let them be struck out of the
list, but do not deprive them of their half-pay. The Right
Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) told him that if he shr,uld ever
again be placed at the head of the navy he would advise his
Majesty to grant these papers. It ought to be disemetly known
whether it was the King or the Government which bad autho-
rity to grant these papers. In one case an officer named Ver-
non was struck off the list for conduct unbecoming a gentleman,
and restored again (so we understood). He wished to know
what was meant by conduct unbecoming a gentleman, as his
himself lied been threatened with punishment on that ground
by the Right Hon. Baronet ?
The motion having been put from the Chair,
Lord J. RUSSELL said no sufficient reason had been
shown for the motion proceeding at this time. It would in-
terrupt all the Orders of the Day, and therefore he should
oppose it.
Sir E. CODRINGTON withdrew the motion, and gave
notice that he would bring it forward on the next Supply dar.,.
The SPEAKER having left the Chair,

Mr. GOULBURN-had objections* to the Registratios, Bill
as it regarded births, which could not be removed by 4•,,y alte-
ration in the clauses. He objected to the Bill, first_, because
it would interfere with the rights and privileges of the Clergy
and with the practice and the principles of the; Established
Church. With respect to births, it was provided by the Bill
that the name which the parents wished tr.,
give the child
should be first given in and registered, aria that the baptism
might take place afterwards. This wo-ald impose a double
duty on the Clergyman; but his great objection was, that it
would dissociate the name from the baptism—that the regis- '
tration of the name and the baptism would not take place
.at
the same time. Even the humblest members of the Church
of England ought to be fully aware of the importance of the -
sacrament of baptism. But there were very many who, front
ignorance, did not appreciate it. He feared that if the nr.me
could thus be given to a child by Act of Parliament, it :could
soon cease to be what it has hitherto been considered, -a Chris-
tian name, and that the ceremony of baptism would be often -•
dispensed with. He feared that whatever temporal. benefits.tho.
Bill might confer, the spiritual might be lost sight of. He •'''
begged the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) to give due consi-
deration to the children of the poor and the ignorant, wbfe'
were most likely to rest satisfied with the registration of the' -'
name. Would anything be gained by this dissociation ? This
sort of registration would afford only a secondary evidence.
Before they had the best evidence that could be had, a eertifi- '
cate of the baptism. What objection could there be to having
a column in the registry, setting forth where and when, the
child had been born, the name, and the interval between, the
registration of the name and the baptism ? He could not but
think that either the parents would be induced to forego the
rite of baptism, in the belief that the registry was sufficient,
or that the conscientious exhortations of the Clergy to their
flocks, not to forego that rite, but always in season and out of
season, to seize every opportunity of bringing their children
to the font, in order to receive that Christian name which it
was this Bill sought to render no longer Christian—wr,uld
have the effect of causing the lower orders to neglect the foam
of registry, in the opinion that the religious rife was suirxient.
Lord J. RUSSELL was glad that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had reserved his objections until the present exeasie",
because they were such as went, if tenable, to the very root of
the measure. The object of this Bill certainly eyes to esta-
blish a civil register of births and deaths, wL,ich should he
alike open to persons of all persuasions, and 'which should at
the same time be so constituted as that Dissenters should not
feel a hesitation in availing themselves of it. The State re-
quired such a register, and it was no less necessary for legal
purposes. But the objections of the Right Hon. Gentleman
appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) to be incompatible with
this the essential principle of the measure ; because the propo-
sition laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman was that the
clergyman should enter the name of the child and the data elf
its birth at the time of baptism—in fact that the registry of
births and the baptism should be simultaneous. The I?...qht
Hon. Gentleman seemed, however, to have forgotten a'eoge-
ther that a great body of people (the Dissenters) svh6ily ob-
jected to having their children baptized by the clergy of the
Church of England.
Mr. GOUL BURN said that his observatior_ merely apelie,_d
to the members of the Church of England ; 2,..e did not wish
to interfere with the opinions of the Dissenters.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Then the proposition of the
Right Hon. Gentleman meat necessarily -involve the keeping
of two registers; the one for the members of the Church of
England, and the other for the Dissenters—a course which
he (Lord J. Russell) conceived to be incompatible with the.
main objects of the Bill—that of maintaining one national
register for statistical and general purposes. The objectioTte
of the Right Hon. Gentleman were founded on his fear that
the lower classes would be induced to forego the rite of bap-
tism, in the belief that the act of registry was sufficient; let
it seemed to him (Lord John Russell) that these were ebiee"
tions founded on the presumed ignorance of the people ;
and, if so, he was clearly of opinion that it was not for
Parliament to legislate fey ignorance, and to frame statutes
in defiance of the dictates of science and experience f
rather, on the other hand, to remove the difficulty by spread'l)that
ing knowledge throughout the land. Ile did not say
Rio'
„ois
it was for the clergymen to do this ; but that no le, •, _
ought to proceed on the principle of offering a premitsmeltae:
ignorance. Still he (Lord John Russell) did hot see 1
his Right Hon. Friend had proposed any remedy for the
v_
diffi-
culty which yet existed—namely, the necessit' of 3ronoino_
ing a general national register, to which Dissenters could
,__
tribute without doing any violence to their religious scruple's'
Sir R. INGLIS thought that the difficulty which the Noble
Lord apprehended might easily be met by there being at_ 134"0,
vision to this effect—that registers of the births and dea 1.1. s
be opened at Dissenting meeting Louses,b.ea_
'be for-
aDnidsstehnattercsopsbiensulodf them should periodically (annuar.y, i
nially, or at other intervals, as the provision Might be)
warded to the central registration office.
would supply the State with the necessary information,
saw,
whe-
ther for national or for legal purpose.,„'while
at
the
n raieed
time it would obviate all the object;.-,ms which had
bfeethe mis-
chievous the plan' proposed by the mill
, on the score 0
of the
chievotts influence it would 'nave upon certain classes
baptism
population, in tempting tldero. to forego the rite. of
eal.,
YU% be thong ht,
ac-
cording to the ordinene
the Noble
hear.) He aknitted the principle laid down
by
y and
Lord, that it register was absolutely necessarybforre
nationalwas any ne-
s of the Established Church. —(Hear,
leg',l purposes; but he could not think that there
to the princi-
egsity for running counter to the
He had 11144 •
Hear, eda. •
pies of a large body of the public, tolipeinmembersof England, and the Clergy.—( For instances, it
other objections to the Bill as it now stoot
be induced among
was difficult to be seen how the registry wastoobe
voluntary there
certain classes of the population. If it was. r
because the of the the Church
wad then no occasion for a general register,
If, en the other
hers of' the Church, being
let the Dissenters maintain their register.ownbertiecorn
pulsion was by
hand, it was to be compulsory,
wbeteonsiderable objection must
way of fine or of domicilisi7 visit,
amount, or was is `must
satisfied with Ihe present system,
arise. If by fine, NNa,s it to be a 'fixed
ver , ,t. fixed, ,it
~nau
proportioned tcs sae means of tbendpkoor: 2
and' if proerate_svoa
operate e.e4ially between, eleb.
inquisitorial inquiry into the il I
mac--
bmytindmiciliary visits that theentrustedi
it witst induce a, specAel.c,i
ticu
a,iidiviallo., i
' ilh the office weeld Isegeire
I ,
4inzlislttaen would not readily
be armed with such
t°
submit to.—( Hear.) 0
po _ a
than
et wgisteein4g was as was
b' .e. enforced, the persons