The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-21 00:00:00

NATIONAL ECONOMY.

Mr. HUME said, that seeing from a paper which
had been issued to- day that the national expenditure was
still upwards of 269,0001. beyond the revenue of the
country, he was desirous to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man at the head of the Exchequer, whether any mea•
sures were in progress for effecting that reduction in
the public expenses which he had led the House to
expect.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
quite ready to allow that there was a seeming excess
of expenditure over the revenue, which in roun.l figures
amounted to about 270,0901.; but, on the other hand, he
had to observe that a full investigation into the several
items would not had to unsatisfactory results. For al-
though there was this excess, there was also a saving in
the Irish expenditure to the extent of 390,0001., an ex•
peuditure which had been regularly incurred for the last
three years, and there was the agreeable fact, that in
consequence of this and other savings, the yearly
balance-sheet of the country would show an amount of
more than half a million to the credit side of

the account better than he could have anticipated when
he last addressed the House upon the subject. In
addition to that, certain sums of large amount were
charged against this year's account, which ought fairly
to be charged to the next year. Then such had been
the influence of the blockade of the northern ports oo
the trade that the revenue had been mu-h injured by it.
Mr. HUME said that his question did not so much
refer to the revenue as to the decrease of the expendi-
ture of the country. What he wanted to know was,
whether any of those measures for retrenchment, which
Ind been promised, were in progres.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—His
Hon. Friend must know that there were already mea-
sures betore the House for effecting a reduction of
1,400,000/. a year.
Mr. lIERRIES could not well see how the blockade
of the northern ports could effect the revenue, at least
to any extent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that surely his Hon. Friend must perceive that the re-
venue depended greatly upon the general trade of the
country.

Lord J. RUSSELL said a negotiation was now going
on in refer,nce to this subject, but the correspondence
hal not y€t been brought to a close.
CEYLON.

Mr. MACGREGOR, seeing the Hon. Gentleman the
Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his place, he wished
to ask him if it was true that the Government of Ceylon
were about to establish a Government debt, and that they
intended to take the funds of the savings' banks
and other public funds for tho immediate use of the
Executive.
Mr. HAW ES said there was no foundation for the
report, though it was true that such a rep.)rt had got
abroad in Ceylon.

SUPPLY.
The House then res dyed itself into a Committee of
Supply, and on the vote of 350,0001 on account of the
Navy Estimates for the maintenance et artificers and
labourers in the naval establishments being read,

Mr. FITZROY submitted to the Houseitiat there wai;
no plausible pretext for pursuing that course at the pre-
sent moment, and that it was extremely undesirable to

take those grants out of the ordinary course.
Mr. HUME said it would be desirab!e to know what
proportion of each vote was now to be taken. He should
object to any further vote of that kind, for it was an
invasion of the ordinary practice;
Mr. WARD said he had no desire to shirk any dis-
cussion on the subject.
Sir IT. WILLOUGHBY was understood to say he
objected to takimg those grants out of the ordinary course.
Ile would not state the reasons then for taking that

_ -
course, but he should do so on a future occasion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made an

observation, wholly inaudible, explanatory of the reason
why the grant had been taken out of the ordinary course.
Mr. lIERRIES did not understand the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he per-
fectly agreed with his Hon. Friend Mr. Fitzroy, who
had raised an objection of that kind. He thought this
was a most unfavourable moment for passing this vote
on account, considering that some greater vigilance ought
to be exercised with respect to the public expenditure
before votes of this description were allowed on account.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that although he thought
this course objectionable, yet under the circumstances
it was the best course to be pursued at the present
moment. _ . . .

Captain PECIIELL thought the course proposed in
voting money on account an extremely inconvenient
one. Why, he would ask, should not the estimates have
been brought forward at an earlier period of the session?
If the lion. Member for Lewes would resist this mode
of proceeding at a future period, the Government would
find that the present would be the last time that it

would be allowed to take place.
After a few words from Mr. FITZROY,
The vote was then agreed to, as were also 350 0001.
for Naval Stores, 500,0001. for Half-pay, 200,0001. for
Military Pensions and Allowances, and 100,000/. for Civil
Pensions and Allowances.

The House then resumed.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

In reply to a question from Mr. HUME,
L')rd J. RUSSELL stated that it was the intention
of the Government to proceed with the Navigation Bill
upon Monday and Thursday next.
POOR-LAWS OREL tND) RATE IN AID.

Upon the motion for going into Committee upon this
Bill,

Mr. SADLEIR rose and said he would state as briefly
as possible some of the considerations which had induced
him to resist the proposition which had been brought
forward by the Government, to raise a certain sum of
money for the relief of distress in certain districts of
Ireland, under the name of a rate in aid. He re-
gretted to perceive, from the observations addressed
to him last evening by the Noble Lord, that he was
diqosed to re-echo the cla,p•trap and, as he must
think, most unjust cry of those few Members who
were in favour of the Ministerial project. It
had been stated, most unfairly and unjustly, that
the majority of the Irish Members, by opposing the
proposition, placed themselves in the position
of men who were prepared to pass a sentence of death
upon a large portion of their fellow-countrymen. He
was convinced that it was not only an unjust and delu
sive proposition, but that it was calculated to
extend the circle of destitution and suffering,

which he was sure the Noble Lord was anxious
to alleviate, and as far as possible to reduce.
The tenant occupier stood at present in a position which
made him wholly dependent on the landlord, and it
was futile to expect that any advantages to be de-
rived from a good harvest could ever place him
in the position which the Noble Lord had pointed out.
Now it should be recollected that this rate in
aid would fall with no sort of equality upon the
different parts of the country. Ulster, for
instance, would have to pay a great deal more
to such a rate than Munster, or any other province in
Ireland. He did rejoice that the Government had
brought before the House the revolting state of destitu-
tion that prevailed in the province of Connaught, but
he regretted that whilst doing so, they had not
produced the evidence which the Government possessed
respecting the state of the whole of the labouring popu-
lation. He was desirous especially, for instance, that
the state of the distressed unions, as they were called in
Leinster aed Munster, should have been more fully laid
before the House. Tho Honourable Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to cite instances of that distress in several unions.
In the Queen's County the distress was of the
same character; there the clothing of the farmers was
made up from rough friez clo.h, while that
of the peasantry consisted of nothing but rags
and tatters. In Tipperary, which had been for centuries
known as the "golden kreen," the only pawnbroker of
the union stated that during the last two years nothing
in the shape of clothing or wearing apparel now
formed a part of his pledges, and he represented
that the clothing of the peasantry was nothing
but a mass of rags, which required the utmost
ingenuity to keep together. flow could they hope, then,
that the farmers would be able to pay this rate ? There
could be no hope of it; and he was very much afraid
that, instead of relieving Ireland, this measure would
have the eff,..ct of throwing those who were at present in
work out of employment and increasing the prevalent
distress. But some Honourable Gentlemen had
had the folly to describe the opposition to this
motion as one of a sectarian and religious
character, and as an effort on the part of the
Protestants of Ulster to exonerate themselves from the
liability of assisting to alleviate the destitution
and distress in their country ; but that could
not possibly be the case, because the greater part of the
Members in that House who represented constituencies
in the north of Ireland were Catholics, and therefore
it was a most unjust statement which had been put for-
ward, with the view of advancing some prejudice in favour
of those objections among the uneducated massesinlreland.
Hon. Gentlemen should also bear in mind the principle
on which that rate in aid was to be levied as a tax. It was
to be levied on a valuation which was nut uniform—not
uniform even in any one union throughout Ireland, and
the practical effect of that would be, that whilst the mere
cemfortable classes in some districts would not
practically pay 2d. in the pound, others would be
paying 6,1. in the pound, because every Honour-
able Gentleman at all acquaint, d with the
principles on which the pour-law valuation
was carried out in Ireland, must know perfectly well
(het a sixpenny rate in aid might be a sixpenny rate
in aid in one district, but would nut amount to 3d. or 4d. in
other districts better circumstanced and better able to
bear any additional impost at this moment.—(lleur.)
The Noble Lord contrasted the very small amount
of the poor-rates in the fair and prosperous localities of
Ireland with the poor-rates levied in some of the worst
localities in England. He (Mr. Satileir) did not think
that was a fair inference, because in many of those dis-
tricts the poor-law had been kep: down by the resident pro-
prietors in those districts. The principle of remitting the
arrears of poor-rates was similar to remitting arrears of
rent in cases of estates in Ireland administered under
the Court of Chancery, and equally mischievous.
The proposition was delusive with reference to the people
of Ireland, and delusive also to the English people, and
their representatives in that House. If the Government
would state frankly and boldly the social position of all
classes in Ireland, from the mass of information they were
furnished with— if they did:so it would only be a calcu-
lation of figures to show that it was delusive to suppose
that any sum they might advance would put a
stop to the famine and starvation that was exist-
ing- in Ireland. The Government had information
which showed them that in the most fruitful parts of
Ireland, men were dying of starvation. In consequence
of the failure of the potato dint in Munster they
were now obliged to live upon turnips—(llear,
hear) —and he believed it only required about six weeks
of that diet to kill an able-bodied man. The Noble Lord
had represented the project as a cure of an acute evil—
that acute evil was the starvation of the people of Ire-
land. He utterly denied that this sum was sufficient
to preserve the poor of liilend from starvation.—(Hear.)
It had been said that some districts in Ireland had re-
pudiated their just liabilities to the Imperial Ex-
chequer—that they had ;sot repaid the sums of money
which had been ad vane d for the erection of poor-
houses, and that that evidenced a natural desire
in Ireland as to the repudiation of the debt.—(Hear.)
He considered that no case had been made out to justify
that assertion, and he utterly denied that any district had
been guilty of such a repudiation. An exertion had
been made in Ireland, such that the history of nations
would never present anything analogous to it, which had
contributed vastly more than any measure emanating
from the Treasury benches to preserve life in that
country, While acknowledging with gratitude the ad-
vances made to them, they had merely asked as a favour
that the period for the repayment of the instalments
should be extended, but intimation was given them that,
as their resources were not entirely exhausted, their ap-
plication could not be complied with. The farmers in
Kent, however, were treated differently when they ap-
plied for an extension of the time fur the payment of the
hop duties, and their request was attended to, as they
had a right to expect it would be, in consequence of the
circumstances of the country.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had said that he
wished to see a great exertion made by Ireland to alle-
viate the distress; but if the Right Hon. Baronet had
recently visited Ireland and had entered the cabin
of the tenant-farmer, the dwellings of the priesthood,
of the ministers of the Establishment,:and of the Tres
byterian clery—if he had walked into the medical
man's laboratory, the dismantled dwelling of the land-
lord, struggling to relieve the destitution by which he
was surrounded-4f he had looked over the schedule of
the broken-down and insolvent tradesman—if he bad
observed the enormous sacrifices made of every descrip •
tion, and directed his attention to the voluntary sub-
scriptiens in every quarter for the relief of dis ress, the
Right Hon. Baronet would have acknowledged that an
exertion had been made by Ireland such as could not be
found in the history of any other nation. He wished to
know whether the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment would cope with the difficult question con-
nected with the surplus agricultural population in Ire-
instead of compelling the ihthistrioto sad solvent