The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-23 00:00:00

filE; SON, LONDON, TiitlßShAt iiffiE 1843 g

its justice, prepared to assent, and this was all that the
West Indies were entitled to obtain. There was one su'a-
jAct More t 4 whicH, he syisjlP I to 01. tlie attention of
,the
ti! the drawback, as he believed iie nt,hrt Call it,
on the exportation. He did not consider the present state o'
the law on this subject to be by any moans satisfactory. 11
believed that it entailed a very great loss on this country, and
that the whole of that question required revision ; but he did
not mean, on the present occasion, or in the present Bill, to
make any change, though he ought to state that the matter
had been under the serious consideration of his Majesty's Go.
vernment, and that if it was his fortune to fill the office which
he had now the honour of holding in the next session of Par-
liament he should certainly call the attention of the Legisla-
ture to the subject.—( Hear.) The high discriminatory duty
now levied had a tendency to induce the importation of the
highest descriptions of foreign sugar only ; whereas if the
discriminatory duty were put an end to there would be sugars
of various qualities introduced; and he thought it just and
right that they should have the full experience of what those
qualities were before they considered the question of draw-
back. Hon. Gentlemen would see by the resolutions he pro-
posed, and by the Bill to be founded upon them, that the Act
would extend only to sugars which might be introduced from
India under it in consequence of its provisions. He would
conclude by moving the resolution of which he had given no
tice :—" That all discriminating duties on sugar shall cease,
and that the duties on sugar should be placed on an equalized
footing, according to the provisions of a Bill to be hereafter
brought before Parliament."—( Loud cheering.)
Mr. G 0 ULB URN had reason to complain of his Right
Hon. Friend, for having postponed -this important matter to
so late a period of the session. Agreeing as he did, with his
Right Hon. Friend in the general principle of the measure, he
could not help expressing his fears, not at what might be the
effect of free competition, if the competition could really be
made free, and placed upon a proper footing between the two
Indies, East and West, but at what might be the moral effect
(a point not at all adverted to) of an arrangement of this.kind
coming to the knowledge of the planters at a moment when
the great experiment of slave emancipation was in the course
execution in the West Indies. He feared for the consequences
of alarming those who entertained, he believed, exaggerated
fears of what might be the results of that measure.
Mr. HUME expressed his gratitude to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer for the enlightened measure which he had just
proposed—a measure which would afford great delight to the
nations of Hindostan, from a large number of whom he had
presented a petition a few evenings since. It wee an act of
justice, which had, indeed, been long delayed. There was
one point, however, in which he had differed from the scheme.
He saw no reason why foreign sugar should not be permitted
to be imported into most districts which exported their own
sugar, because he thought it would be to the advantage of the
consumer, and to the interests of the consumer he looked, in
the first place. The resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man in this respect he thought too astringent. Still he would
not on that account throw any difficulties in the way of the Bill.
Mr. E W ART joined his Hon. Friend the Member for Mid-
dlesex in thanking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this
wise and just measure. He thought the West India interest
had no right to complain, for the protection given to them by
the Bill was, in his opinion, sufficiently strong. He hailed
the general measure as one of justice and wisdom, and promot-
ing an enlightened spirit of free commerce. He hoped that
Government would also take off the duty on pepper, and place
rum made in the East Indies on the same footing as that made
in the West. Indeed this seemed as a natural corollary of re-
ducing the duty on sugar and encouraging the cultivation of
the sugar-cane. The article of cotton was likely to become a
very important article of cultivation in the East Indies.
Mr. O'CONNEL L did not apprehend any evil resulting
from the excited feelings of the West India planters at this
step, because it was, in point of fact, one which they had long
expected, and of which they had full notice. It was to pur-
chase the equalization of the duties that the planters received
the 20,000,0001. He congratulated the Chancellor of the
Exchequer on bringing forward this great measure; it afforded
an additional proof of the anxiety of the Government to do
what was right.
Mr. P. STEWART admitted that they had a right to ex-
pect that at a period not remote this alteration would have
been made, but there were circumstances still affecting the
West Indies which rendered it a question of considerable im-
portance as to the peried when such a measure should com-
mence. The West India planters were restricted in their
supply of labour, and were saddled with the expense of the
total cost of that limited supply, which would not be the case
at the expiration of the apprenticeship system. What he and
many others understood was that it would be applied before
long, but that it would be worked out not by a sudden, but by
a graduated process. He certainly was personally of opinion
that the duties ought to be equalized. He wished to ask the
Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer two questions, in or-
der that there might be no mistake, as, unless, the matter
were clearly explained, it was more than probable that some
such apprehension would arise. First, it was said that with
regard to the stuff of East India sugar now here, this prin-
ciple was not to apply ; but the principle ought not in fair-
ness to apply to any produce or sugar of India now coming
home even under certificates of origin.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
This should be distinctly understood in order to allay
misapprehension, if it should arise ; and it should be also dis-
tinctly understood and provided for that India was not to be an
exporting and importing country at the same moment. Now,
there was another point. The West Indies were subject to cer-
tain restrictions, which amounted to a positive prohibition of
commercial intercourse with the United States. Now he
begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if he was prepared
to restore that communication direct and uninterrupted as
before?—( Hear, hear.) Waiting for the answer of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer to these points, he had nothing more
to say than that this arrangement, if carried fairly and justly
into effect, would be, in his opinion, productive of the great
cst advantages to the East Indies, and would be an act of jus-
tice to our colonists generally.
Lord W. BENTINCK could state there would be no diffi-
culty in procuring certificates of origin, according to the plan
proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. P. THOMSON was glad to find that they would have
the valuable support of the Hon. Member for Lancaster. For
himself he would give it his most cordial support, for he looked
upon it as an act of justice, and he must say justice tardily
rendered.—( Hear, hear.) He anticipated the most beneficial
consequences from the proposed change of system. The
question was one of consumption between the produce of both
colonies, and the principle of the proposed alteration would
just have the effect of putting the West Indians on a fair foot-
ing with respect to others, and placing them in a condition to
receive, under the new circumstances, in which they have
been placed by other laws, a fair equivalent for the pro-
duce which the mother country consumed. His Hon. Friend
had said that they must look to the general interests of the
West India colonies, and not listen to the arguments in fa-
vour of this Bill, which, he asserted, would interfere with
it. But what were the facts ? The only grounds that the
West Indians had of complaint, appeared to rest on the
fact, that they were obliged to pay higher for lumber and
provisions (staves, flour, &c.) which they received from the
mother country, br her North American colonies, than they
could obtain them from the United States for, and were
thereby entitled to a reciprocal consideration. However,
he must remind the House, and his Hon. Friend, that
the Bill of 1831 had settled all those subjects of complaint
with especial reference to their peculiar position between the
mother country and the United States, and the interests of the
colonists themselves. The provisions of the Bill now com-
plained of adjusted in a great measure, at the particular re-
quest of the West Indians, because it was ccessidered that it
was most unwise to leave them dependent on the United States
for any articles of prime necessity, and which, in case of a
war, would unnecessarily lead to the great distress of these
colonies. This view of the case was not a mere theory. They
had the previous experience of five or six years of embarrass-
ment to the British West Indies, arising out of a traffic with
the United States, in which they bad been engaged, and which
that country had interrupted, thinking that our colonies
were entirely dependent on them, and, in fact, commercially
in their power. An Hon. Friend of his had particularly com-
plained of the inequality that existed with respect to our co-
lonial duties, and he ( Mr. Thomson) had requested him to go
through the tariff with him, and point out any items he thought
objectionable. They had done so together, and the only points
on which they could not agree were those of sugar and coffee.
However, he would still be happy to consider the whole co-
lonial question, with reference to its general merits, and he
trusted the House would find him not unwilling to make any
alteration that might, on full consideration, be found advan-
tageous to the empire at large—not, however, this session, but
the next. The Hon. Member for Liverpool had called his
attention to the duty on pepper. He agreed with him that the
present arrangement was a bad one. It had been suffered to
continue as an experiment, but as it had not worked well he
hoped it would be removed.
Mr. W. CRAWFORD wished to mention that there was
but one port in the East Indies from which sugar came to us
—that of Calcutta. There was no import of sugar into that
port (it would be like sending coals to Newcastle), and it
would, therefore, be easy to manage so that the authorities at
Calcutta could preclude the possibility of imposition on that
subject.
Mr. GOU LB URN complained of the turn the subject had
taken. He thought it had been entered on with the under-
standing that no discussion would take place to-night.
Mr. P. THOMSON explained.

After a few words from Mr. G. F. Young, Dr. Bowring,
Mr. Pease, Mr. P. Howard, and Mr. Thornely,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that
°his intention in bringing forward the present measure was
simply to place the produce of the West Indies on an equality
with the East. Ho had studiously taken care to protect the
West Indian planter, and while doing justice to the East In-
dian to avoid doing injustice to the West.
Mr. BARING said that there were only three ports in the
East Indies whence shipments of sugar took place for Eng-
land, Calcutta, and—(The noise that prevailed in the House
prevented us from hearing the conclusion of the Hon. Mem-
ber's speech.)
The resolutions were then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the„other Orders of the Day be now disposed of.
PARISH VESTRIES BILL.
Mr. WAKLEY then rose to present several petitions on
the system of voting in parish vestries, and praying for reform.
—(The confusion in the House prevented our hearing the
particulars.) The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to sup-
port the second reading of the Bill, and said that until 1818
the present system was unknown in our parochial proceedings.
Up to that time there was a perfect wantonness of the manage-
ment of the parochial funds. Since 1818, however, there had
existed, i❑ fact, a system of close vestry. But if that acted
on before 1818 was bad, it was a thousand times worse since
that period. A case bad occurred in his own neighbourhood
lately which would illustrate the injustice. Suppose that
twenty persons living in a parish had 1504 a year each,

amounting to 3,000/. a year ; and suppose that one hundred
other persons had 30/. a year each, amounting to the same
sum ; those twenty persons could at present give 120 votes,
llffridre4 per ,spy cried at the same gross sum
coulJ only give one hundred
,of a
parish could neutralise four-firths, their equals in point of pro
perty.—(Hear.) The House could not sanction such a state
of legislation without sanctioning all sorts of injustice. He
now moved that the Bill be read a second time.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not agree to this Bill proceed-
iag any further in the present state of the public business.
The ground on which he was not disposed to agree to it at
present was, that he conceived its operation would be injurious
to the extension of the Poor Law Amendment Bill, which
was a most valuable Act, and had been carried most success-
fully into operation in many places.
Mr. HUME was in favor of the measure proposed by hip
Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, but if the Noble *Lord
considered that it would tend to lessen the efficiency of the
Poor Law Amendment Bill, he should advise his Hon. Friend
to strike out altogether that part of the Bill which related to
the union of parishes. He hoped if such an amendment were
made, that the Noble Lord would not object to the Bill, but
allow it to be read a second time.
Mr. PEASE moved that the Bill be read a second time
this day six months.
On the question being put—
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the objections urged against
the Bill by the Noble Lord were intelligible enough, which
was not the case with those advanced by the Hon. Member for
Durham, who must be influenced by some other motive, in
his opposition to the Bill, than he thought fit to explain. He
hoped the Bill would be allowed to go into Committee.
Mr. PEASE explained.
Mr. PR YME considered that property ought always to
have its due weight and influence in parochial government,
and therefore he objected to this 13111.
Mr. WARD could not agree with the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, that property ought to have an undue pre-
ponderance in parochial affairs.
Mr. HARDY agreed that property ought to have its due
influence, but it ought never to have more ; and under such
circumstances he was favourable to the Bill now proposed, and
thought that it ought to be allowed to go into Committee.
Mr. PLUMPTRE spoke against the Bill.
Dr. BOWRING would support the proposition of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, because it recognised
the rights of individuals as opposed to property.
Mr. FORSTER objected to the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Howard, Mr. Hawes, Mr.
Goulburn, Mr. Benett, and Mr. Potter,
Mr. WAKLEY had no objection to adopt the sugges-
tion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex, but
if the Noble Lord should not consent to the measure with
the alteration proposed he should certainly press hit motion
to a division.
Mr. E. ROSS should vote against the Bill.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
For the amendment 6O
Majority against the Bill .~
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (SCOTLAND
BILL.

Mr. R. STEWART rose to move that this Bill be now
committed.
Mr. GILLON said the Bill was founded on the report of
the Commissioners, and would be an improvement on the Re-
form Bill. The general feeling in Scotland was favourable
to the Bill.
Dr. BOWRING thought it would be better to print! the
Bill, in order to give the Scotch people an opportunity of ex-
amining it.
Mr. C. FE RGUSSON thought a change was called for.
The union of rich and poor towns, as in the case of Dumfries
and Maxwell town, and subjecting both to the same charges,
was very objectionable.
General SHARPE was understood to speak to the same
effect.
Captain GORDON instanced the cases of Old and New
Aberdeen, which were injuriously cemented. Each town
should be allowed to manage its own affairs.
Mr. STE WART would move that the Bill be printed, and
should be committed that day fortnight.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill.
Clauses up to 8 were agreed to without remark.
On clause 8,
Mr. HUME should propose that the fact of paying or re-
ceiving head money should be rendered penal. He should'say
that receivini, head money or tail money should be punished.
Mr. H. GRATTAN supported the proposition.
After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL,
Mr. BERNAL thought there were some misapprehensions
with respect to this clause. Formerly head money was not
considered illegal ; but this clause, framed in the spirit of the
Reform Bill, would make it so. •
Mr. PRAED said that the Courts of Law had never held,
nor was it consistent with common sense that they should hold,
that money given and received subsequent to an election, with-
out proof of a corrupt intent in the parties giving and receiv-
ing, should be considered illegal.
Mr. WASON made some allusions to the borough of Yar-
mouth and the town of Bradford, but the nature of which we
could not collect, except that he appealed to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bradford (Mr. Hardy), whether the giving 51. notes
to voters subsequent to an el 9tion was not gross bribery in a
moral sense.
Mr. PRAED did not doubt but the Hon. Member for
Ipswich was a better judge of such cases than he was, as the
pursuer must always be better acquainted than the defendant.
A desultory conversation then ensued upon the point of
law, Mr. WA SON supported his view by a decision of Chief
Justice Holroyd, in a bribery case.

Mr. PRAED was not intimately acquainted with the sub-
ject, not having had occasion to make researches for his own
defence, or in the criminatiou of others. —( Hear.) He trusted,
however, that the Committee would allow him to say a few
words with reference to a matter which was personal to him-
self. A petition, it might be remembered by most Hon.
Members, had been presented last session, not against him,
but making statements with respect to the borough of Yar-
mouth, and praying for the vote by ballot. On a motion of
the Hon. Member for Kilmarnock for the payment of the
expenses of witnesses, he had hoped that he should have the
the opportunity of making his statement; but, unfortunately
for him, that noticefras withdrawn. The Hon. Member for
Hastings had also given notice of a motion for the disfran-
chisement of the burgesses of the borough of Yarmouth, which
was also withdrawn, so that again he lost the opportunity
of making his statement. The House had ordered a pro-
secution before it had heard evidence—( Hear, hear)--and,
at the expense of the public, the parties had been put to
an onerous and grievous expense; the witnesses in the
meanwhile had been kept in the pay and employment of
the Whig and Radical interest, who had caused the proceed-
ing. Now, with all their disadvantages, and the case
conducted by his Majesty's Attorney-General, it was blown
out of Court amid the execrations of the Jury, the execra-
tions of the audience, and the condemnation of the judge.—
( Hear, hear.) would not therefore call God Almighty to
witness, as some Hon. Members might, and afterwards find
that he had been guilty of a grievous lapse of recollection ;
but would content himself by stating that, upon his honour as
a gentleman, there was not one of those statements but was
gross, abominably, and wickedly false.—( Cheers. )
After some desultory conversation on the truth of the alle-
gations of the petition alluded to between Mr. Wason and
Mr. Praed, Mr. A. Trevor and Dr. Nicholl respectively rose
to order, when the debate on the clause before the Committee
was resumed by
Mr. WA K L EY, who proposed as an amendment that the
word " corrupt" should be expunged from the 2d and 38th
lines of the clause.

After a few words from Dr. Nicholl, Mr. Hardy, Mr.
Pryme, and Sergeant Wilde, the Committee divided, when
here appeared--
For the Amendment 46
Against it
Majority

-15

Mr. 13 ROTH ERTON made several attempts to move that
the Chairman report progress ; but the Chairman appeared
not to hear him, and the discussion on the clause proceeded.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned, at a Quarter past One.