The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-28 00:00:00

suited the feelings of the people of Ireland, by making a
marked difference between them and the people of any other
country ?—(Cheers.) In the next place, even if you give up
the advantages of local Municipal Government, which we ask
you to preserve, will you give up the advantege of distinc-
tion—will you give up the advantage of authority—will you
give up the advantage of influence, all of which we have al-
ready argued, and I say justly argued, are more highly prized
in Ireland than in any other part of the King's dominions ?
And further, my Lords, will you depart most plainly and de-
cisively from the principles of the Act for the removal of the
Catholic disabilities ?—( Loud cheers.) My Lords, the main
principle of that Act was, that every office of distinction,
every office of power, every office of emolument, should be
thrown open to the whole people of the country without any "
distinction of religion..—(Loud cheers.) What do your
Lordships do ?—(Hear.) You immediately make a dis-
tinction, and found it most plainly and distinctly upon the re-
ligious differences which exist in Ireland.--(Cheers.)—My
Lords, I am surprised that the Noble and Learned Lord
(Lyndhurst) who brought forward the amendments in this
House should have adopted these principles. The Noble
and Learned Lord, as we well know, has held very different
opinions at different times on the subject of these Roman
Catholic disabilities. On the 6th of March 1827, the Noble
and Learned Lord, then Master of the Rolls, made a speech
against concessions to the Roman Catholics in the House of
Commons ; again, on the 10th of June, 1828, the Noble and
Learned Lord, sitting on the Woolsack in this House, as Lord
Chancellor, made another speech also, against the conces-
sion of the Catholic Claims. The first of these speeches ap-
peers to me to be very cursorily and imperfectly reported ;
the second is reported more clearly and forcibly, and seems to
be sanctioned by better authority. Both these speeches go
very strongly against the principle of the proposed conces-
sion ; the second puts very strongly the danger of concession
without adequate security ; and it was on this ground that the
Noble and Learned Lord refused his 'assent to the measure.
On the 3d of April, 1829, the Noble and Learned Lord, still
sitting as Chancellor upon the Woolsack, makes a most deci-
sive speech in favour of the concession of these claims ; he puts
them upon the broadest principles, and boldly states " the
Roman Catholic is in my mind in no manner incapable of
exercising the privileges of a free citizen in a free state. His
opinions regarding civil power and civil matters accord with
those of other men ; and in no manner, therefore, do they in-
capacitate him from discharging the duties of a legislator."
My Lords, if they do not incapacitate him from discharging
the duties of a legislator, they surely do not incapacitate him
from discharging the duties imposed upon him by this Bill.
—(Cheers.) In mentioning the Noble and Learned Lord's
speeches, I have no intention whatever of reproaching him for
the suddenness with which he changed his opinions • such a
reproach would come with but an ill grace from anybody, but
perhaps it would come peculiarly ill from me, for I have myself
changed my opinions on great public questions ; I have felt it
my duty to do so, without being actuated by any interested
motives, and the allowance which I claim for myself I am per-
fectly ready to make for others. But what I have always ob-
served, and what I have always found relative to these in-
consistencies in public men—which, after all, are rather
awkward features in a man's public life, which always afford
points upon which attacks may be made, which always re-
quire defence, the more particularly as they generally wear
at first rather a questionable aspect, and one difficult to be
explained—what I have always observed, and found, my
Lords, has been, that the error in conduct invariably is not
in the second step, but in the first. The first change of opi-
nion is generally right ; it is generally founded upon sound
principles ; it is generally called for by circumstances; but
the error is in having rapidly, in early youth, or under the im-
pressions of party, or perhaps in deference to the authority of
others, pledged yourself irrevocably and voluntarily to mea-
sures, to opinions, and to principles, which afterwards, on
maturer consideration, and under altered circumstances, you
find it impossible to support or maintain. What I complain
of in the Noble and Learned Lord on the present occasion is,
not that he changed his opinions rapidly, but that in all the
arguments he now advances he seems disposed to recede from
those sounder and better opinions which he professed in 1829,
and to return to those which he held in 1828 and 1827.
And, my Lords, whatever may be the dangers of Ireland at
the present moment--whatever may be the feelings of the
Roman Catholic population—whatever may be the power
possessed by the Roman Catholic clergy—and whatever may
be the manner in which they employ those powers, let the
Noble and Learned Lord depend upon it that the remedy for
those evils is to be found in other measures than in a return
to anything like those exclusive principles which prevailed
before 1829, and before the Act of 1793.—(Continued
cheers.) My Lords, the Noble and Learned Lord, on a
former occasion, made a speech which has excited a great
deal of observation, both within and without the walls of this
House. I wish to advert to it, not with reference to any ex-
pressions to which it may have given rise—not with the view
of making any attack upon him, or of exciting anything like
feelings of animosity or indignation on the present occasion ;
but merely for the purpose of adverting, coolly and calmly,
to what I conceive to have been his argument. The Noble
and Learned Lord said—. We were told, when the Roman
Catholic Relief Bill passed, that it would be perfectly ac-
quiesced in—that it would be completely and wholly satisfac-
tory, and that all would be peaceful and tranquil ; whereas,
on the contrary, we have had more tumult than ever ; we
have had measures most injurious to the Protestant religion ;
we have had the spoliation of the Protestant Establish-
mpt.t , rvc haws had all the attack-a upon tithe; and now,
at last, it has come to this—that the population of that
country stand in array against each other, in a state of
uncompromising hostility." My Lords, I must beg leave
to say that I have some observations to make upon every
stage of this speech. In the first instance, the Noble
and Learned Lord says, "We were told," and so forth ;
its if he had not himself, in the speech of 1829, to which
I have before adverted, held out as strongly as anybody
could a prospect of the peace and tranquillity which
were to ensue from the passine- of that measure. My Lords,
it is very natural, when people wish measures to be passed
which they intend should operate as measures of conciliation,
which they intend should be considered as a boon, that they
should be inclined to exaggerate the effects of that boon ; and
in speaking of such provisions they are apt to draw pictures
of tranquillity and happiness which are not likely ever to be
realized. But, my Lords, I confess I do not recollect any
sound or distinct argument which was held out at that time
from which it was to be inferred that the- measure would neces-
sarily be the immediate instrument of peace, satisfaction, and
tranquillity.—(hear, hear, hear.) I ask your Lordships to
reflect that it is out of the question that such results should
have ensued from it, that it is totally contrary to the history of
man, that it is totally contrary to the experience of ages that
any such effect should have been caused by a measure which
affected the situation of so large a portion of the population,
and which was an admission into power of a vast number of
persons who had been previously excluded from it. It would
have been perfectly unnatural to expect that it should have
done so at once, without any checks, without any changes,
without any alterations. Look to our history, my Lords,
look to those periods to which we now look back, with the
greatest pleasure, satisfaction, and gratitude. Look to those
events which are never mentioned in this House without
praise and admiration, especially from many Noble Lords
whom I see on the opposite side of the House. Consider
the Reformation—consider the Revolution. Those events,
when we look back upon them, diminish to a single occur-
rence ; but they were a series of frightful and tremendous
events, notwithstanding. To the Reformation we all look
back with the greatest satisfaction and gratitude. I, myself,
am sincerely and devotedly attached to the principles of the
Reformation ; I am sincerely and devotedly attached to the
spirit of free inquiry and the right of private judgment__
principles which I consider characteristics of the Reformation
—principles which I trust will be maintained by those from
whom we have a right to claim their support ; although feel-
ings of a very different nature may show themselves in the
bosom of the Church, or of the Universities.—(Loud cheers.)
What, my Lords, were its immediate effects ? Bloodshed,
civil discord, dreadful rebellion I rebellion in the eastern and
western counties, rebellion in the Scottish counties that was
successful for months, and superseded for a time the authority
of the King of that day in this country. A series of events
occurred, my Lords, which I will not recapitulate, but which
render it to my mind perfectly clear, that the benefits of
the Reformation were never really felt or established
until the Revolution. This great event, certainly the
bulwark and security of our liberties, if not the
foundation of them, was at the moment the cause of a most
dreadful state of political society—father against son, and son
against father, and all the ills of a disputed succession. We
may call that revolution bloodless in itself, but we must recol-
lect that it was purchased at the expense of two long, pro-
tracted, and bloody wars, under the effects of which we are
suffering at the present day. My Lords, Ido not place Ca-
tholic Emancipation on the same level; but I consider it as
an event of sufficiently similar character to justify me in say-
ing that, judging from history, it was not in human nature,
nor was it to be expected, that things would at once subside
into that state of peace and tranquillity, the non-result of
which has, according to the Noble and Learned Lord, occa-
sioned so much disappointment and surprise.--(Cheering.)
The Noble Lord mentions, among the evils which have flowed
from the Catholic Emancipation Bill, the Church Tempora-
lities' Bill, and the diminution of the Church Establishment
in Ireland.
Lord LYNDIIURST—I doubt whether I ever said so.
Viscount MELBOURNE—Does the Noble and Learned
Lord retract it ? _ _

Lord LYNDHUR ST—I do not retract. I doubt that I
ever said so.
Viscount MELBOURNE—Of the Church Temporalities
Bill, my Lords, I may say, in the first place, that it was an
act of the Legislature ; and I believe the effects of that mea-
sure, notwithstanding the strong feelings that prevail in Ire-
land, have been in the highest degree salutary and beneficial.
I believe that it has given the clergy more power and more
e
weight, and that they arc much more likely to support
cause of religion now than they were before its passing.—
(Cheers.) I declare solemnly, my Lords, that in this, and in
all the measures I have introduced, or may propose, I have
had no other object in view than that of relieving the Protes-
tant religion from that which evidently does not facilitate its
progress, and which has been already sufficiently long tried,
and applying the resources of the Establishment to means
that may better conduce to the purification of the religion of
the country.—(Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord, in the
speech to which I refer, also alluded to the question of tithes,
a most painful subject certainly, on which I will not further
debate upon the present occasion. I will not ask you, my
Lords, whether you might not have prevented much of this
evil by seizing the opportunities which have been presented
to you for that purpose. With respect to the Noble and.
Learned Lord's last assertion, that the population of Ire-
land stand arrayed against each other in a state of uncom-
promising hostility, I believe that is a most exaggerated state-
ment, and one which is in no respect borne out by the real