The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-03 00:00:00

MENTS.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day
for the consideration of the Lords' Amendments to the Irish
Church Bill. The Noble Lord said that in rising to pro-
pose a motion on the subject of the amendments that bad
been made by the House of Lords to the Bill which stood for
consideration to-night, he felt it incumbent on him, consi'-
dering;the:situation lie had the honour to hold in that House„
to call the attention of the House for a few minutes to aL
question relating to the privileges of the House of Come
mons. When the Bill with relation to Municipal
Corporations in Ireland was under consideration in
that House, he bad taken the liberty of stating there
were only two courses the House could pursue—either
to reject them partly, or to reject them altogether,
for the purpose of bringing in a new Bill. That observa-
tion of his had not been followed up in the course of de-
bate, either upon the opposite side of the House, or on his
side.—(Cheering.) He felt it, therefore, the more
incumbent on him, to take some notice of the alte-
rations in the Bill, because he was of opinion
with one of the earliest authorities of the House, Mr., Pry,
that their privileges were not light and airy, but matt,srs of
great weight. Therefore he should be sorry to vacs
by the nature of the amendments made to the L ill,
without pointing out to the House in what manner
they might be considered to affect their privileges. The-
chief alteration made to the present Bill might be
considered under four heads—one was an alteration of the
amount of rent charge, from seven-tenths to three-fourths—
the next was an alteration of the distribution of the income
of the parochial clergy of Ireland, increasing the amount :so
be so distributed—thirdly, there was an alteration
taking away part of a clause which gave a surplus
to the Consolidated Fund—and the fourth was
an alteration, omitting that clause which provided for the
grant of 50,0001. a year out of the Consolidated Fund,
for the benefit of religious and moral instruction. As
a- necessary consequence -of that amendment, they
omitted the words, " and promotion of moral instroz-
tion," and about half the preamble. These might hes
considered as affecting their consideration of the Bill
in the first instance, as they altered entirely the scope and
object of the Bill sent from that House of Parliament, that
being a Bill uniting two objects to produce a satisfactory
measure. They were of vast importance in the next place
as altering the grant to his Majesty under the name of the-
Consolidated Fund, and as providingfor an issue to be made
under that grant. There had been Bills not more affecting
the privileges of that House, and there had been alterations of
a somewhat similar nature, which had caused the Bills to be-
at once rejected by that House. lie might quote as an in-
stance a Bill relating to the Corn Laws, in the year 1772,
in which the House of Lords had left out a provision for a
bounty to be paid upon corn exported, the object of which
amendment might be said to diminish the burdens of the:
people ; and yet because the House of Lords had omitted'
that provision, the Speaker of the House of Commons said he
would perform his duty, and tossed the Bill overthe table,and
it was then kicked out by the Members on both sides.—(Loud
Ministerial cheering.) That was done by general consent,
and not a word was raised in favour of the Bill from any
quarter. If he (Lord J. Russell) were to confine himself
to the bare matter of privilege, he knew not why he should
not argue that the present Bill, like the Corn-law Bill,
did not admit of any alteration in any part in which the
Consolidated Fund was concerned. But he hoped he should
stand excused to the House, and if he was not excusable, he
trusted the Speaker would interrupt and set him right, if he
proposed, not to give up—not to renounce any of the rights
or privileges of that House—but proposing, as he should do,
that they should not give any further consideration to the
amendments of the other House, and passby the question ofpri-
vilege, in order to come at once to the merits of the question.
He did this upon two grounds—the one was that be thought
as a question of substance he was obliged to admit that it
was a Bill that had not for its object to add to the Conso-
lidated Fund, or to give anything in the way of Supply to
his Majesty. It was a Bill having for its object the regulation
of the eeeleliastical revenue for the purposes of religious in-
struction in Ireland. The House of Lords, therefore, could
enter as much into the merits of this Bill as they could into
any other measure ofgeneral legislation. In the second place,
however, he should be sorry, by anticipating a question of
this kind, to prevent the House, as they had done before,
coming to a decision upon a great question, with respect to
which the House of Commons and the House of
Lords were at variance. lie was willing that the question
should be decided on truth, and justice should dictate
upon its general merits, and not to make it a question of the
privileges of that House. In so doing he gave up nothing ;
it was a time when it did not behove that House to sur-
render its privileges with respect to Supply, for upon
the operation of the privileges it possessed rested the
hope of retaining the happiness and prosperity of
the people of England.—(Great cheering.) He would
now advert to the alterations that had been made ; the
first was the alteration of the amount to be paid by the
land-owners of Ireland from 7-10ths to 3-4ths ; upon what
ground that alteration had been made he could not tell.
The next alteration was with respect to the income of the
clergy ; the Government had proposed by the Bill, that in
cases where there were but few Protestants, the income of
the clergy should be limited ; but where there were a great
number, the amount of income should be in proportion.
That would have been like taking the tithes payable in the
South of Ireland as payment of those due in the North, but
there was a compensation for that. in the clause grant-
ing 50,0001. for the religious and moral education of
th people. As the Bill was altered the main object of
it seemed to be to transfer from the parishes in which
there were few Protestants the income of the clergyman to
those in which there were many. The proposal of the
Government had been, that where there were few Pro-
testants only a certain income should be paid to the
clergyman. That income appeared to him to have
been most unnecessarily raised by the Lords.—(Hear,
hear.)—There was a power given, that when a - benefice in
which there were 500 Protestants and Inss than 1,000, to
alter the distribution of the income of the benefice ; but
there was a limitation of this power made in the other
House, by which no income was to he less than
3001 a-year. There might be parishes in which there
iniks,:st be only one Protestant, yet the clergyman was to,
receive no less a sum than 3001.—(Hear, hear.) That
was the plai: adopted by the House of Lords to prevent
the accumulation of any surplus. (Loud cheers.)
Though there was no duty to be performed
—though there might he no attendant in the church--
though there was no Proteetant in the parish, still the cler-
gymen was to receive the full sum f 310101t/.laincyiecaoru.Ta
(Cheers, and " o f
Hear, hear.") A plan o t
never give satisfaction.—(llear, hear.)
ofe
e
Ireland were discontented when it w
d.
arsh propie)oospeiCi
faith to themselves, and would they be more cont
large
to put a clergymen in their parish of a iffeerei.dit
o l d
a that
impostmake
when it was proposed to give then, a clergyman with a
n
to
comel is, e 3fotamridl e saanldv a
salaryy t
l) eni
against which so much had been said F'—( Hear, hear, hear.)
ofrnTrni btil7 towards
He now came to the question of what was to be done on
that which in the former Bill was the surplus revenue
of Ireland. He thought lie had by that Bill most
amply provided for the Protestant Church of Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) By that Bill they had left in the Church of
Ireland, two Archbishops and ten Bishops ; they had left
clergymen with 4001. and 5001. a year who had a very
small congregation to attend to. Even the curate under
the provisions of his Noble Friend's Bill were far
better provided for than the generality of the Cu-
rates of England. They hail then provided
that the eurplus should go for the religious and moral in-
struction of people. That object had been altogether
omitted in the an:emdment. Ile would not then go into,
the arguments on iv ::eh that. question originally rested ;
but he would merely refer'
been conic to last year upon I:'ltt
.'.othe various divisions that had
question. After a long
debate of three nights on the 2d
April there was a ma-
jority of 33 in favour of that principle,' On the 3d of April
in Committee there was a majority' of 3S. On the
6th of April there was a majority
7th of April there was a majority of 2;7- Lt,
cf 25. On the
principle had again been debated during ti:e „.I,w_es!"_l'
year on two occasions and agreed to. It was, therein
rte,;e7'
necessary for him then to contend against the arg.ll.
that been urged against that principle, or to maintaw
the
truth of' the principle ; but be did think it was necesss
to embody that principle in the present Bill.—(Cheers.)--e
Had the Bill they sent up to the House of Lords been
passed, they would have had the Governmen
tpledged to
to polleet the
maintain the Church of' Ireland—pledged
tithes, or rent charge, and to take care that the revenues
to be secured by the Bill were paid to the clergy of
the Church of Ireland. The clergy would have i):..en in
the receipt of a certain income of 70 per cent. on the geess
amount of' their tithes, disembarrassed from failure, risk, ot'
the pain of a collision with those from whom that sum was
received. They would have received it from the Govern-
ment in security and ease, without further contest between
the payers and the collectors of tithes. With respect to
the people of Ireland, their situation would have been this,
that if their prayers had not been altogether listened to,
they had received a token from Parliament that they had
not been forgotten in the settlement of that question.--e
(Loud cheers.) They would have felt that the ano-
malies in that Bill had been smoothed down and made
palateable by the mild influence of a Government feel-
ing a sympathy with the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)