The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

nit? of the law and Government, and preserved the peace of
the country.
Dr. LUSH INGTON said the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman who had just sat down, had expressed his appre-
hension that on his return to Ireland the sentiments he had ex-
pressed this night would deprive him of the friendship and re,
gard of esteemed friends. The declaration was calculated
to prove the bad effect the measure would produce in Ire-
land. He thought the Catholic Association were right if
they were merely endeavouring to bring about Emancipa-
tion. That was the opinion of the Attorney-General for
Ireland. One or two acts of the Catholic Association had
been selected to prove them guilty. He denied that the House
could draw conclusions injurious to the Association from one
or two acts. In all Institutions some acts might be found open
to censure. In the University Club, a person had found
among the books the Memoirs of Hartiet Wilson, close by the
side of a plain Bible. if the character of the University
Club was to be tried by the rule applied to the Catholic Asso-
ciation it might be said they were in the habit of reading loose
books and neglecting the Bible. It was said the. Association
interfered with the administration of justice, and that no abuses
had taken place in Ireland. He asked the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman whether he could say the administration
of justice in Ireland was pure in 1811 ? When he was in Ire-
land he was in company with a Noble Lord who acted as a
Magistrate. A robbery had been committed, and the Magi-
strate committed the man who had been robbed until the next
Sessions. This act of injustice was necessary, as the life of
the accuser would not have been sate had he remained unpro-
tected. The Learned Doctor wished to know whether_such a
state of things could have been found under a due administra-
tion of justice. He considered the Association right in follow-
ing the example of other societies, and opposed the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, ex-
hausted as the House must feel with this protracted discussion,
and assured as he must be, that it was not in his power.to add
to the discussion, he felt some anxiety to express his senti-
ments to the House, not merely on the question, but on
some words which had been applied to him in his situation as a
Member of the Government. Ile saw with some satisfaction,
that in what had fallen from Gentlemen who opposed the mea-
sure that no attempt had been made to defend the existence or
acts of the Catholic Association. Gentleman had said the ex-
istence and acts of this Association arose unavoidably from the
situation in which the Catholics were placed, but no one had at-
tempted to defend them. On the contrary, every one who hid
spoken had disclaimed any approbation of the manner in which
this body had conducted themselves, and the whole bearing
of their argument was, that :mother measure ought to have
been applied. The measure alluded to was one _for yielding
the Roman Catholic claims. He was in the situation of one
of the Government, and thetefbre he should fsel..a heavy re-
sppnsibility if he had been the means of withholding any mea-
sure which could be considered a cure for thrice m 1 utcholy
evils which had so long disturbed Ireland. Ha was anxious
to advert more particularly to that part of the question.—
Gentlemen would do Government the justice to recollect the
circumstances under which it was formed. During the time of
Mr. Percival the Catholic) question was opposed by some of
the Members of Government upon principle. On the death of
that Minister the remaining part of the Government were
placed in a singular situation, for it so happened that the
House of Commons were opposed to the Government- on the
Catholic and other questions. -They carried up an address to
the Prince Regent for a change of Ministers. The result was,
that after an attempt had been-made to form two Cabinets, the
Members all differed on the question of the Catholic claims.
They could not procure a Utopian Government. No Go-
vernment could be formed to please all parties. What
was it Gentlemen wanted them to do. They said when you
came into office you consented to propose the Catholic ques-
tion, and you ought to do it. They were told in answer, that
the Cabinet was divided, and that it could not be insisted on
without breaking up the Administration. The reply to that
was—Oh no, we do not wish- that, but still those who have
made up their minds in favour of the Catholic claims, ought
to press it forward. That line of argument gave rise to un-
worthy sarcasm on Government. There was not the slightest
foundation for that sarcasm. The Noble Lord who had
been so often attacked, the Noble Lord at the head of the
Treasury, and his Right Honourable Friend the Secretary
of State, had never been brought in contact upon the
question. Under what circumstances could they who
were favourable to the measure presume to take the helm
out of the hands of their colleagues. They could not have
insisted on the question in opposition to their colleagues with-
out being guilty of treachery. By such conduct they could not
have got the confidence of the House or the country. With
respect to the public sentiment upon that question, his opinion
was that there existed at this time a very strong feeling:in the
country against that question; A great deal of that feeling
had been occasioned by the Catholic Association. There
was a strong feeling in the other branch of the Legislature
against the question, and particularly with the Clergy.—
( Hear, hear ! )—Gentlemen considered it a reproach to the
Clergy. Now, that was very unfair. It was not wonderful the
Clergy should look-with jealousy on those to whom they were
naturally opposed. - It did not, however, follow that preju-
dices against the Roman Catholics would last for ever. Great
changes had taken place. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
himself suffered a change. His opinions were once opposed
to the question, but he had change] that opinion. Any
attempt to bring forward the question at present could not be
attended by success, and an unfortunate result would throw it
back half a century. Having been induced to vindicate the Go-
vernment from the aspersions cast on it, he should not discuss
the subject before the house at length. He considered the mea-
sure necessary, and denied that there was any similarity be-
tween the Constitutional Association and the. Catholic Asso-
ciation. He had never subscribed to the Constitutional :ISM).
Fiation, nor to any other society, the object of which was to
institute and carry on prosecutions. The Hon. and learned
Member (Sir .I. Mackintosh) had placed great reliance on the
fact of the acquittals of the persons prosecuted by the Catholic
Association, but had he forgotten all their previous proceed-
ings ?---( Hear !)—Had lie forgotten their proclamations against
the accused ?—(hear !)—Of the fact of their sending down per-
sons to conduct the prosecutions ? These facts were greatly at
variance with the claims to equal and impartial justice which
had been set up for them by the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman. As to the Address, of which so much had been
said, he was ready to allow, that if the Association had never
written or spoken any thing else, he should not be disposed to
quarrel with them ; but their spirit and acts were greatly at
variance with their honied words. The conduct of that Asso-
ciation had infused venom into every man's cup in Ireland.
The phrase " by the hate you bear to Orangemen" could
scarcely be understood in this country ; but in Ireland, it was
an appeal to the most fatal passions. And yet some Hon.
Gentlemen had argued that " hate" was meant to signify that
the Catholics were not partial to their oppressors. The ge-
neral tone and language of the leaders and the acts of the
Association were all very remote from any thing like peace
and tranquillity. It was impossible for bins (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to conceive any reason why the violence and
absurdity of Messrs. O'Connell, Shiel, &c. should prevent
Parliament from doing what was right and just—(Hear !)—but
when he found these persons using violent language and exhi-
biting great violence of action, and exercising great influence
over the Catholic population, then lie could not but conceive
that the Association had an inevitable tendency to excite ani-
mosities and fears in the bosoms of those to whom these ad-
dresses were made. He was a friend to the Catholic Question, .
and should vote for it when brought forward ; and yet he did
not believe that Emancipation could work any wonders. It
would do no more than remove a grievance, and that was the
reason why he should vote for it. Yet it ought not to be
forgotten, that whilst Emancipation would remove the dis-
content of one party, it would assuredly create discontent
with another. The Protestants of- Ireland would no longer
have the ascendancy, and the Catholics would immediately
attempt to overthrow the Established Church. Nothing was
more likely to happen than this, and nothing was more
likely to excite alarm. The system of Associations, so con-
genial to Ireland for many years past, would be carried
to a perilous extent. It might originate with the Orangemen,
but it would be followed by the Catholics. It would therefore be
the most absurd of all absurd policy to leave all those Asso-
ciations in the same condition they were now in. If Emanci-
pation were granted to.morrow, still the peace and good order
of Ireland would require the suppression of the Catholic Associ-
ation, which could not possibly produce any thing but unmixed
evil. He did not believe that the proposed measure could injure
the Catholics, nor produce any misfortune to the country. He
could not assent to the exclusive claim put in for the Associa-
tion, on the
score of its having removed many of the evils
which existed in Ireland. Parliament had done a great deal
in that respect by the act relating to Magistrates, the Petty
Sessions, Tythe Cases, &c. These evils were remedied, not
by the Catholic Priest in Dublin, but by the old-fashioned
Parliament of
.Ingland. He believed that the grievance of
Catholic disability would also be finally removed by Parlia-
ment.—(Hear !) The Catholic Parliament was not likely to
do this: 11e saw that Association calling itself the source of
tranquillity, and pretending that it confined the sword to the
scabbard ; and yet the very power to do this convinced him
that it could when it pleased cause the sword to fly from the
scabbard. (Hear !) The attention of the British Parliament had
been specially directed for many years past to the affairs of Ire-
land, and though it had not done every thing, still it had done
much, and did not stand in need of the support of the Catholic
Association.—(Cheers.)—Parliament would betray its duty, and
would do muck to render Ireland incapable of enjoying the
benefits already conferred, or which time might confer on that
• country, if it did not make up its mind to Iput down with a
• strong and determined arm the. Catholic •Association.—(Hear .
• , Mr. HUME, amidst loud cries of " adjourn" and " ques-