The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-05 00:00:00

iVo. 11,982

LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 5, 1831.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

all parts of the House.) lie would repeat that ballot was
becoming fishionable.—(Continued cries of " No, no.")
He was decidedly of opinion that if the views of the inha-
bitants of London, Westminster and Southwark were col-
lected, it would be found that ninety-nine out of every
hundred were in favour of vote by ballot.
Mr. HUNII,, presented a petition froin St. James's,
Clarkenwell, praying for Reform and rote by ballot, and
others to a similar effect from Perth and several parishes
in Scotland.

This was not the fact ;in .the sense of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, for the claim of the Duchess of Orleans, the
daughter of Charles. 1., did not descend to the Duke of
Orleans, the present King of the French, but to the
Duchess of. Modena; and she, as be had stated, had no
inelination to assert it. It was true that the Ex-King
Charles X. had married a d iughter of the house of
Savoy, but he believed that but little. apprehension was
entertained for the safety of the throne of this kingdom
front the heirs of that Royal personage.—(Hear.)--With
respect to the motion before the House, he could not anti-
cipate any objection. It went merely to separate into two
Bills, the two branches of that which he had introduced
in one Bill on a former occasion. It was his intention to
proceed then only with that branch by which the neces-
sity for taking the oaths before the Lord Steward pre-
viously to their taking their seats in that House would be
done away with. The other branch—that for abolishing
the oath of abjuration—he would postpone till after the
decision of the House on his Hon. Friend's motion for the
relief of our Jewish fellow-subjects.
On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair,
Mr. GOULBURN should give the Right Hon. Mem-
ber's proposition for doing away with the oath of abjura-
tion a most decided negative.—(Hear.)
Mr. PERCEVAL begged leave to remind Hon. Mem-
bers,_that the act of settlement and the oath of abjuration
were the expression of the great Protestant principle as-
serted at the revolution ; and that therefore the latter could
not be done -sway with without disparagement to our Pro-
testant Constitution.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEERUARY 4.

The LORD CHA NCELLOR did not take his seat on the
Woohack till nearly Half-past Five o'clock.

REFORM.

Lord KING presented petitions from Launceston, St.
James's, Clerkenwell, Kidderminster, the Political Union,
Stirling, Perth, Knaresborough, and several other places,
praying fur Reform.

. ,
The Earl of rtADNOR presented petitions of a similar
nature from Totness, Lewes, the Ward of Farringdon
Without, Dursley in Gloucestershire, Wolverhampton,
Crawford-street, Manchester, and several other places.
The Duke of NORFOLK presented petitions from St.
Nicholas, Galway, for the equalisation of civil rights and
the abolition of slavery.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.

England
Ireland
Scotland

Sir J. SCARLETT, and several other Members from the
Common., brought up the Judgment and Execution Bill,
which the House of Commons had agreed to with some
amendments.

Mr. CA stran.r. brought up a private Bill.
The Earl of ROSSLYN presented petitions from four
Royal Burghs in Fife, praying for Reform.
Lord FARNHAM moved for eertain returns relating
to the growth of tobacco in Ireland.—Ordered.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in presenting peti-
tions praying for Parliamentary Reform, from Greenock,
Crompton, Doncaster, Witham, and several other places,
took occasion to express his satisfaction that a plan of
Reform had been now agreed upon with the unanimous
approbation of all his Majesty's Ministers, a plan which he
had no doubt would give very general .satisfaction,
and would be of lasting duration. That plan, which would
shortly be presented to the other House, had had his most
hearty concurrence ; and when the subject came before
their Lordships, he should state to the House the reasons on
which he grounded his assent to that measure.--(flear.)
The House adjourned at Ten Minutes before Six
o'clock till Monday.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt him-
self called upon to remind the House, that it was then
indulging in a most needless and unexpected discussion—
(Hear)--on subjects which, in the very terms of his Right
Hon. Friend's motion, would come substantively and sepa-
rately before the House on other occusions.

Sir C. WETHEDELL would take the sense of the
House on the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion, if it should
be implied that his assenting to it would be a permission
to the Right Hon. Gentleman to bring in a Bill for abo-
lishing the oath of abjuration, which was part and parcel
of the Constitution as established at the revolution.

Sir R. INGLIS would also press his opposition to the
motion to the vote, if the Right Hon. Gentleman should
take the assent of the House to it as an argument in favour
of his bringing in a Bill for abolishing the oath of abjuration.
General GASCOYNE would vote with his Hon. Friend
who had spoken last, should he divide the House on the
Right Hon. Gentleman's motion ; for he Lad not heard any
thing from the Right Hon. Gentleman which, in his mind,
amounted to a justification of it.

Mr. SADLER thought that the House ought to pro-
ceed circumspectly on a matter of this importance.
After a desultory conversation, in which several Mem-
bers joined, the motion was agreed to.
On the question that the SPZAKEIt do now leave the
chair,

Mr. C. WYNN took occasion to observe, that the House
had not pledged itself to this Bill before the vacation ; on
the contrary, it was expressly stated that the discussion
upon it would be better taken in the Committee. He in-
tended to proceed with one of these Bills without delay,
and to postpone the other to another day, when the die.
cussion might be taken upon it.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL hoped that an opportunity
would be given for discussing the principle of these two
Bills separately, and that Hon. Members by assenting to
the Speaker's now leaving the chair, would not be consi-
dered as pledged to the support of either of them.
Mr. C. WYNN—Certainly not.
The SPRAWL then left the chair. The Bill went into
the Committee, where it way divided into two Bills. The
report on each was brought up and read. The report on
the Lord Steward's Oaths Bill was ordered to be taken into
consideration on this day se'nnight, and the report on the
Oath of Abjuration Bill on the 20th of February.
CIVIL LIST.

Lord ALTHORP laid upon the table of the House
papers relating to the estimate of the future annual charge
of the Civil List. The Noble Lord then said :—Pursuant
to the notice I gave on a former day, I now proceed, Sir,
to discharge the duty I have undertaken, in moving that
these papers be referred to a Committee on the Civil List.
In making this motion, it will be my duty shortly to state
what his Majesty's Ministers have proposed to do with re-
spect to the Civil List. In framing these estimates, we
have endeavoured to follow out the course which it ap-
(Hear, hear.) In the first place,
bpiewaurelidi tiombeadtloieptsedvi.st of this House, on a former occasion,
then, we propose to refer the Civil List to a Committee.—
lahveoea
suhdeelddt
tohteareppweaar: any gtielnetloeransioinn ttoliewillocuhsel
, thaw
to tidid nninish the comforts of his Majesty, or to
detract from the dignity of the Crown. The questionion
that occasion, aryl the discussion which then took place,
arose upon the objections to the Civil List as proposed by
the late Government, because that Civil List contained in
many points matter not connected with the dignity of the
Crown or with the personal comfort of his Majesty. It
was also objected to, because the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite refused to refer it to a Committee. In proposing
the Estimates which I now lay upon the table, I have en-
deavoured to avoid these objections. I have laid out of
them all those charges which the Civil List formerly con-
tained which do not appear to me connected with the
personal comfort of his Majesty or with the dignity of the
Crown.—(Hear, hear.) I have differed also from the
Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to the mode of divid-
ing the Civil List. He divided it into ten classes. That
principle of division appeared to me inconvenient, and I
have divided it into five classes. The first of these classes
is that for the Privy Purse and the allowance to her Ma-
jesty—the second relates to the service of the Household
—the third to the expences of the Household—the fourth
class comprises the sums appropriated for the Royal
Bounties—and the fifth consists of the Pensions. I have
made this division of the classes of the items forming the
Civil List, because it appeals to me that all the rest ought
to be under the controul of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
It is desirable that his Majesty, with regard to his personal
income, and with respect to that which concerns his per-
sonal comfort, should be independent of this or of the
other House of Parliament. —(Heer, hear.)—lle ought
not to be liable to have inquiries made into the mode of
that expenditure ; which would be a hardship on any in-
dividual whatever, and which would be the greater on ac-
count of the dignified station he held. With regard to the
first of these classes—the vote for the Privy Purse, and
the allowance to her Majesty—I do not intend to propose
any alteration whatever. The sum charged to that class
is 110,000/. being composed of 60,0001. for the Privy
Purse, and
t
50,h00a0t1a
. e forl Queen. n.O
ffileVeirtshorfestpheec tHtooutsbee.
second class-- relating to Q h
to
hold.—the sum formerly proposed was 140,546/. I pro-
pose that the charge for that class should now be 130,300/.
I do not mean that the House should consider this as a
reduction to that amount, but that it arises from a
class--that
change iu the arrangement, the reduction being occa-
sioned by the removal of the salaries of officers of the
Boardof Works from the Civil List to the Consolidated
Fond, I have made this alteration, because I thinkthat all these officers should be under the controul of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)—A reduction is 'also occa-
sioned by the abolition of the office of Auditor of the
Civil List. That has long been a sinecure office—the
duties have been performed by the Deputy Auditor, and
I have therefore thought it ought to be abolished. The
House will however perceive, that to deduct those two
nd.
sums—the salaries connected with the Beard of
Works, about 10,0001., and the expence of the
Auditor of the Civil List, 2,4001.—wi1l make a
larger reduction than the amount I have stated ; but
it is counterbalanced by including seine smaller sala-
ries, at present paid from other classes, which the
House will perhaps not think it necessary that I should
particularize. The third class proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman was for the expence of the Household of his
Majesty, and his suggestion was to the extent of 210,500/.
My proposition for the same class is 171,500/. ; and I
must here remark, that I am not bound to state the sum as
an actual reduction, as the difference arises from transfer-
ring the charge of the Board of Works to a different de-
partments When I first looked at the subject, I confess it
seetne.l extraordinary that while the expence of all articles
of consumption was so much decreased, the charge for the
maintenance of the Royal Household had r,maiiied un-
abated ; but on examining the subject more minutely-
and accurately, I have arrived at the opinion that a le-
ductien cannot be made without compelling his Majesty
either to -alter his present state of living or to incur
debt. lam sure the House will not wish that either alter-
native should take place.—(Hear, hear.) It must not be
forgotten that an increase of expenditure is necessarily oc-
casioned by the circumstance that we have happily at pre-

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PRICE 7D.

sent a Queen Consort.—(Hear.) I am prepared to assert
that his Majesty could not live in his present style with a
►mailer allowance, unless he pursued a system of greater
economy in all the departments of the Royal Household.—
(Hear, hear.)—The fourth class relates to the Royal
bounty and charity, and the sum proposed by the Right
lion. Gentleman was 234,0001. per annum. In that I
shall suggest no alteration. In the fifth class—that of
pensions—l have made the greatest change. The follow-
ing was the scale of pensions charged by the Right Hon.
Gentleman on the Civil List of England, Ireland, and
Scotland :

. £74,200
53,795
31,2'22

Total - - X 150,217
I perfectly agree with those who think that a liberal allow-
ance ought to be made to the King, to enable him to re-
ward the services of the meritorious—to assist those whom
his Majesty considers distressed, and to bestow marks of
favour where those marks of favour are deserved.—
(flear.)—Neverthelets, I am satisfied that the sum of
159,0001. is a great deal too much to be so applied.—
(Hear.)—l know that it was the intention of the Dukeof
Wellington to lessen it to 144,0001. in the following man-
ner—pensions were to be allowed out of the Civil List of
England to the amount of - - £74,200
Ireland - - - 40,000
Scotland -.
- - 30,000

£144,200
Still that turn would, in my view, be too much—(Hear,
hear.)—My proposition is to bring the English, Irish, and
Scotch pensions into one sum, which would much simplify
and improve the account—(Hear.) I propose that the
House should grant for the purpose no more than 75,0001.
making a reduction of 69,000/.—(Much cheering.)—l
will now explain to the House the mode in which I mean
to effect this reduction. Three modes have occurred to
me. It might be done—first, by granting no pension until
the list was reduced to the sum I propose ; it must be evi-
dent, however, that this plan would be unfair to his pre-
sent Majesty, as it would, in all probability, prevent him
from granting a single pension. The second mode might
he, that as pensions fall in, his Majesty should be allowed
to grant a smaller tutu, so as gradually to reduce the
amount of the list. This plan is liable to some degree of
objection ; and the mode in which I propose to effect the
reduction is the third. It is this :—That the pensions
should be taken by seniority, and that those which
amount to 75,0001., standing at the head of the
whole number, should be placed on the Civil List ;
so that the public should gain the advantage as the
others fall in. lam aware that this plan gives his Ma-
jetty an advantage in the division ; but, considering the
great sacrifices made in the whole amount, I do not think
that the house will object to allow it.—(Hear.) It is
necessary for me to explain the grounds on which I do
not propose to remove any of the existing pensions, and I
will state them shortly. It is certainly true, and no man
is more ready to assert it than I am, that many of the pen-
sions on the list are such as ought never to have been
granted.—(Hear, hear)—but after the best examination
I have been able to give the subject, I am able to say that
the majority are merely and purely pensions of charity. I
willingly admit that we have the legal right to put an end
to all those pensions; they expire, by law, with the demise
of the Clown, and it has no right to renew them. But
though we may have a legal right, I doubt if we have an
equitable right, to abolish them; because they were un-
doubtedly always granted on the supposition that the party
recctving them obtained them far life. The result of my
statement unquestionably is, that there is no immediate saving
to the public. When I say that there is no immediate
saving, it ought not perhaps to be omitted that there is
a saving to the extent of about 20,000/. ; but I do not
pat it forward so far as a measure of economy. I think
the great recommendation of my plan is the abstraction
from the Civil List, not under the controul of Parlia-
ment, the sum of 460,0001. per annum, which hereafter
will be placed under the supervision of the House.—
The suggestion of the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Goulburn) was that 970,000/. should be granted
for the Civil List, over the disbursements of which
'this house could exercise no controul. My plan is, that
only 510,0001. should be so circumstanced ; and although
what I have opened to the House may not occasion any
immediate saving, it will ultimately lead to it, and it will
give Parliament the controul it ought to exercise. Hay-
ing said so much respecting the Civil List, I may remark,
that there is another point, not indeed immediately be-
longing to it, but intimately connected with it, upon which
I feel it try duty to say a few words. On the mat riage
of King George the Third, the mum of 54,0001. was
granted to Queen Charlotte for her jewels, besides the out-
fit with which she was provided. In the case of the
Princess Charlotte, also, a large sum was voted for the
outfit of her Royal Highness; and I have reason to be-
lieve that a proposition for granting an outfit to her
present Majesty was under the consideration of the late
Government. I believe that I am correct when I state,
that the Duke of Wellington did not consider it un-
reasonable that such a proposal should he made to the
House of Commons. Considering that her Majesty had
to provide the whole of her Royal Establishment, and that
many difficulties must necessarily be encountered when-
ever d person began in debt, it did not seem to me unrea-
sonable that an outfit should be granted by Parliament.
But I have the satisfaction of informing the House, that
his Majesty, with the liberality which belongs to the con-
stitution of his mind, with that considerativeness which
renders him so attentive to the wishes of his subjects, and
with that solicitude far the public welfare which has
already given so much general satisfaction, declines to
accept it.—(Loud cheering from all sides.)—We cannot
pretend to insinuate, either in this House or out of it,
that the measures we propose have not received the sanc-
tion and approval of his Majesty. We have the happiness
to serve a Royal Master, who is glad to give a ready ac-
quiescence to every suggestion tending to promote the
welfare of his people. He has commenced his reign as,
perhaps, the most popular King in our history, and lie
bids fair to preserve that popularity by an earuest and con-
stant desire to merit it.—(Much cheering. )—I beg to
move that the papers be referred to the Select Commit
tee.—(lledr, hear.)

Mr. GOULBURN—I do not rise to enter into any de-
tails regarding the Civil List, and I shall follow the ex-
ample of the Noble Lord and his friends, who, when I
had the honour of making my statement, reserved the
expres.ion of a decided opinion until they had due time
for consideration. But I cannot refrain, even upon this
first occasion, from off.ring a few observations upon what
has fallen from the Noble Lord. I understood that the
decision the House came to in November last was, that
the details of the measure were to he submitted to a Com-
mittee up stairs, in order that they might report not only
what they thought ought to be the amount of the Civil
List, but the details they considered expedient. I under.
stood the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell) who pro.
posed the Committee, grounded himself upon a precedent
which went the length I have stated. He intended that any
measures, afterwards to be introduced by Ministers, should
result from the inquiries of that Committee; and the point
at issue between the Right Hon. Baronet and myself was,
whether the preparation of the estimates belonged most
to the servants of the Crown or to a Select Committee.
Whatever was the decision of the House upon that occa-
sion, I am glad, at least, to have the sanction of the
Noble Lord to the principle, that it was the duty of the
Government, let it be composed of whom it might,
to undertake the task of preparing the estimates,
instead of delegating the responsibility to others. The
Noble Lord has said that he has endeavoured to conform
himself to the principle advanced in debate by those who
opposed the plan I had the honour of submitting. He
has excluded front the Civil List all that was not strictly
attached to the personal comfort and dignity of the Sove-
reign, and he is, no doubt, aware, that in taking this
course he has been guilty of a departure from the principle
upon which every Government has hitherto acted in the
settlement of the Civil List. It has always been the
practice at the commencement of every reign to provide
for the Civil Government, and for the expense of the
Civil List in one sum. The Noble Lord takes upon him-
self, for the first time, to separate the provision for the
personal comfort of the Sovereign from the provision for
the Civil Government ; and when he comes to look into
the various departments, I apprehend he will find 'it ex-
treinely difficult to follow up the principle he has adopted.
There is in the Constitution a connection so intimate be-
tween what regards the Civil Government of the country,
and what concerns the dignity and comfort of the
Crown, that when the Noble Lord examines the details,
lie will find it very difficult to justify some of the
charges he has left on the Civil List. But I shall be
Letter prepared to discuss this point when the minutia