The Sun.
London, England, 1814-11-22 00:00:00

1 ' '
rat. 1-loTlPter) :nrcetl. 1 'NV°I 11'1 1 _lnpropte
n:!-y thing. resitilig-"the ttegoeia.
/ions at atilt' sur,•ly the -same reasons'
applied to the Vienna. - The
llous6, he was eol:vinred,..vould see the necessity
vipausitqf until cue ne!.,:ociafiritis were over, before
'they called for the details c:f the prbeeetlit.-,,5.:
The handsAlrid the totignes of Ministers were -at
present tied:, Geutlemen might wt.sl••:rt or insii•
nuttte what they pleased ; they knew that Ministers :
tot4d :Dot, consistently with their duty, answer
them'. , He should, therefore, say no more upon •
part subject; but merely repeat, that
t he•HoirSe %Vag not called upon to .vote•the Esti-
mates withont Idle '-groutt-ds; The'sanction of
Parliament had already-been given to every part
of fie 'Armr Estimates, which it was nosy pro-
poised, a,,d if any expliknation were wanting, the
Giannittee was the proper place to examitle into
the details. •
Mr.TIF.RNEY rose for the pnrpose of explaining
the reason which ,bad 'induced hini to -ask• the
gnestion, and to strew how it had a-bearing on •
the question before the FMIS.C. They were called
upon to go into a Committee on the Army Ex-
tranrdinaries, and it appeared that the country
W;.45 hOntitl by the Tre.aty ofChauniont to keep•up
a for cif 75,000:
Mr: tkokFtt spoke to order, as conceiving that
the. Right Hon.•Gentlenian was not confining
lihnseit tOckPlauatiOtr,-.but niaking a fresh speech.
Mr. TfERNEY subinitted that he had aright to
explain the masons for rue questionlie'had asked:
TheSFCAKEIf considered; that geccirdiiig to the
usual co.4lorn',' 11.11/21ernbbr might exitlain any pas.-
-sage in his tpeech that Wai Misrepresented; but
that he co,:1! nor, by ivziAr Of explanation, state
the rea.,or,,, of Lis ff,i-mer sree`ch'.
ISTr• it appeared to him that the
01-; •Cts Conerts'sz at nre-§eat Were, lo seize
-
whatever tcrritoli,,s th'q thou gilt If he
conceived that 75 ,000`British troops' were neces-
sary' to pi otrinte the good objects' of a good Con-
gress, he would have besttation-tO' titiiribeing•
lo iiVtOyed; but when so large a biCity Of -13ritM)
troco were kept 1;1)• for the accontpliiheueht of
objects that he suppose(! not to be go:).!, nr such
as Of'by the -cohntry, he
thought he had a right to make some enquiries on
the subject.
Mr. PoNorTi'lr Niished to ink the- Right Hon.
G6)tieltutti; whet her the paper's purported to have:
bekn iaid,before the Congress of Ameria ley Mr.
Madison were correct statements. of what :hail
passed rot che Nel:yiciation.at Gitent ?" .
the CTIMgCLLLeI: theEkct4 Ectutft
what hail passed in Aogum., dud ,soit:t",&lfts 'pas:44l

0 v.. rAktf6l-t II the '17.1 I.)t.•';cli
ediy and ‘vari-nly dh-,tii.ssed; land th2re waS Ai. large'
twaioritv against hint.
Mr. i'osioyt-v could not hdp-observin;4, that
if the terms -stated by the Engli3h;Commissioners
were insisted upon, -very long war -woilld be the
consequence, '.which, alter the imnrense expellee
of money-and lives, ‘vottld probably terminate in,
...failure. •
Mr. STRI,FIENT. Still insisted that America had de—
' parted-from the nsital conduct of civilised Govern,-
ments, in putlisbing Papers before cute Negocia-
tion iviis terinivated.
• .
Mr. PomoNnir. asked of witAt use the Ncgo-
- ciations•could be, if we made demands which
cotild not be allowed. The President was coin- •
pellet either at once to break off the Negotiation,
or to communicate our conditions to the only au-
thority,competentto grant them:
Mr. STEPHEN observed, that the President had
intimated no wish to•ask any powerS front Con-
gress ; and if he recollected rightly, there was no
sin qua. non as to cession and territory.
; Mr. PoisoNsy. assured the Hon. Gentleman that
there was such. a condition.
Mr, BARING said, there was a stipulation as to
the territory inhabited by the Indians,- which
amounted to noless than one-third of the Ame:
rican territory. This was al condition which the
Americans would never agree to, and which, ,if
granted,- would be injut ions to-ourselves.-
The CHANCELLOR of the ExpHEQUER observed,
that the Gentlemen on the other. side hail been
arguing on a wrong assumption : the Negocia-
• don's with America were not broken'
;, Mr. Roniz,lsots; stated, that the :.-knierican Com,
missioners had received instructions :from their
• Government, to treat .on
,the Ist and r3a coadi_
lions., the latter of vvlii related; to.. a revision at
the boundary fine, Such all ifit ruction :implied a
power in -them to make a' trei-ty.,,-(Mr.
SONTY.-Yes, but not to conclude one.)=Cer-•
tainiy not to conclude one, but to go through all
preliminary steps.
Mr. PoNsoNwy.--,--Perhaps the instructions, to the
Commissionetto were merely not to treaty ,on the
-cession of territory.
AWE, referring to a -book in Ivis hand,
which we understort him to say was.a copy of; the
American Constitution, said, that -a -power was
given to the President of making treaties without
any reserve.
Mr. BARiNG answered! That the Constitution
.was IP-anted extreme caution, anti-the Con-
gretis reserved .to.itsell i‘ii poser which was not
gi yen. •
Mr. 1.1. o“ replied, that the Constitution would
trail; those

is November, %rem sere different questions: Al-
though the President -of Americe might think- pro-
pee to ley-before the Congress the detail‘of a
Negociation thet was pending, that was not all
example fit for "thi's •country to follow.
Mr.Poesd...4ei replied, that as to the American
,State Papers, he supposed that -they were tor-
• reedy stated to the Congre'ss; he wished, how-
ever, to know whether the 'English State Papers
were correctly set forth ?
o reply wasPrade front the Treasury Bench.—
The House then resolved itself into a Committee.
,
Lord I'ALMERSTO proposed a Itet:olittiOn "itnat
204,386 men should be ktpt tiff for the land ser-
vice; excursive of the troops in the East Indies,
and foreign cores.-
Mr. TittuitY ished to know what prbportion
of those tritops ‘t ere teitployed
Lord Peesirteslios said, that it had never been
customary to State the distributioo of out' military
force. - •
Mr TIERNEY said, that if there was any secret
-exptelitiOn goitoe forward, It wtitild evidently-lie-
improper to. ask. what !!amber of men it strati tiOnie
Imsed nt : bet HS -this Treat 7 of Chameout
before all the wctelde he thou edit there .eoeld fie
Ito objectioo to stetintsewhaf proportion of this
large army was ttoeekept in lieHmo: • Mr. lisTutrasr denied that this was the first
The Cu•st;c4-ietaut of the'EXCHtouret tbought, instance of such a proceeding ; on former oeea-
that it would' be evidently itniiropes to state the siotts only particular regiments had seed called
ameenei of:the .*ervisons in lit:let's:it: The Right out.
lion. Genileneetelreatly knew, 'that by the Treaty Mr. WrsirrarezAr asked, when %
of Chattimito we 'Neve ti) keep lip 5,000 The CHANCELLOR ,of the EXCIIEQt7E/t.
and lie tdso been informed, that 15,000 of 1792.
- them-were ilesioverians.— . - Colonel Worm said, that the Hon. Gentleman's
Lord PALMEii4lbt,ll.46llolt' 117:eplite unusual to, declaration, that: it was contrary .to law to keep
suite the distribution of the Milittsii-ye forte: If the Militia embodied, must nesterially add to the
this toiestiou was anse erect, -another geptlemen dissatisfaction expressed by the men.
might side -the neuteer of troops in ',-Aineritea, and -Mr. WHITBREAD thought it his•duty to state,'
another What we' lead in Sicily.' Such conmenti- that this measure was wholly unwarranted by law.
cations. could wit be made without injury to the He had read the Statute with the greatest ntteus
service. • tiot, and his opinion was, that the militia ought
'After a few more observations from Mr. Tierney, not to he kept embodied.
Mr. WHITBREAD wondered that the Hight Hon': The ATTORNEY GENERAL did not entertain the
'Geetlemee found so much delicacy itt answering same opinion. He considered 'that the proceeding
the eneStion. •We loot engaged to-keep-up 75-,000, was perfectly legal. The time would come, when
and by the unwillingness to answer how many the law 'on this question worthd be diseuseedi
acid
there were-in .11elgiiiie, it would-appear as if we he should then be prepared to' shewethat his. Ma-
wished to theist our Allies into a belief -that we i jesty's Ministers were justified in the measures
biel more there than ss:er really had. -He had they-had pursued.
heard asf an expense of ten millions that would Mr.llhereeeno said, that many lawyers, whom
be necessary for repairing the fortresses -in the he had consulted, agreed in his opinion ; but. this
Netherlands. He hoped that this country would was not the -first time that he and the Learned
not be called .upon to pay all that money. Gentleman had differed on points of lass'. •
BATIth;ST hoped th:lt no infeeenceoyould After some conversation between Mr. Ponsonby,
he drawn as to the correctness of those statements Lora Palmerston, and Mr. Tierney, the suns was
ftbatu Ministers not thinking it right to answer agreed to. . . .
them. • se,alpe. for (teficral Officers, notholdinzthe,rarik of Co-
-200,6?)/.. to defray the cliargs of General, StraF,
Mr. BARING. conceived that the- extraordinary eison Officer?; 60,000/. for Surraumerary ;
• measures pursued,' and the extraordinary pre- fOrtlit'Exptbee'4 of (Weer§ of Public I,"epartaicirts
•• tensions set up as to America,, xvete subjects in (seta Britain; 70;0004. for defraying .the Fees for Land
Fnrc,.;s? were severalty ,nrrfl and agreedy
which made it necesser that the House should
The stun of 218,00 n/. for the llalf,pas of Reduced Officers
bay m c more inform than they were now .Po§r of' flu! Land '
sussed of. If- such pretensiOns were persevered,. !General Ga'scofost 'sj-title that by an order of
it wouldmake a very nuiterial difference as to the-Treasury, the, l'ayrnastel. was empowered to
the tpiiitary force necessary to be kept. up:. A take a Poundaee:otfid. ill the pound out of the
Yens latese army must he empkyed to "mint-airs- halfsoay of 6'keerss • toosidered ex-
such claims on the part of-this country: theyweres tremely hard; and worthy of the consideration of
claims which would net easily be submitted to by the House. He wished to know What became Of
America. If esontethilig wie-re -not done on this this' poundage; it certainly did not go to Chelsea, •
subject soon .Ifter the Cbristruas eeeess-,lley should 'andeltlinisters oitglit to state in what manner it
himself eild'esss the Hettse‘vjstire motio,n ti,voil it; mils apps-opriated. There rye's anoth'er malver that,
-.Mr. See-Pere: was g',eid to find that a Gentle- f. deserved attention—the distinction between the
sna;it -acquainted twits America and its Eutellsh. and -Irish half-lay. He saw oo . reason
custom; ::s the non. Member who spoke last bade far this-di'dertnice, and considered that ought to
-not seii&iocied the opittion- which had been utter-, be-destie:tway.
ed ioet Lie ci,t,rsi; -of the dehete, thatAthe Am•erlean •Lordf)ALYIERSToN said, that the pbnwrdage-ore
'Presidtut.was, by the Coestitntion of his Coun=- the pelf-eery watt- not voted, and did not in fact
try, compelled to lay paperS before Congress even exist. tf,eretv nominal, and' consequently
during a begs) if he was not mistaken, con'el-not 'epselueriated by tiny 'persons Under:
that i'reeidstlt lied, not prodncsd the doenmentee Cee.Goveeetneeit.e respects() the diseinction
ritlettste rd" the eseeecietione, itb --Fresect 'tot tlr'e Lis..tweet the %.01-1-qla-yi(if the two countries, his

scarcely ,reserve powers con
whicirit granted.
The' resolution was then agreed to.
nest Resolution teas for 3,5/2,0001, for the set vice of
Ow troops at home and abroad. ..`,..4,ret,d to.
The Thicd -Wag for lu.,onf. for recrlfilillZ are
troops a dragoons and 13 companies of foot, in Great Britain,
fnr.tlit service of the East.lndia 14nupany.
It was then bowed, a stun not exceeding 2,1,600/.' he
gratited to his nifjesty fur defi-ayirir; the charges of the dis-
einhedied ititil.ia.• •
Mr. WIIII;BREAD'SAiII, that ,lte,consthlered- it eG-
tirely contrary to law to keep the militia etribodicd
at this nipment ; and great dissatisfaction hail
ari-sen the privates that some had 'been.
emliodied. while (Alters were dischargt!'al.
Mr. B.; BATH U RST obserVlol, that • the whole of
the militia would he dismohodiedkas • soon as the
safetv.of the.country would allow.‘ 11 the service
required a portion to.he kept on foot, it must na-t
turally fall harder wpon ,some than it. did upon
others ; but it was.a hardship that could not at
Present lie avoided. •
Mr. WHITBREAD replied, that the conduct of
Government towards different .regitnertif
could not he _defended. •The law 'enabled the
Government. to call out the militia generally; and
this was the first instance of any Particular selee-
.

ictory