The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-20 00:00:00

EAST INDIA Housg.

•
A General Court of Directors was held at the
India House yesterday, for the purpose of re-
suming the discussion on those clauses of the Na-
vigation Bill which affect the trade with and to
India.—The Chair was taken at twelve.
The CHAIRMAN announced the recommendation to pay a
Dividend of 5i per cent. on the Capital Stock. Agreed to,
unanimously.
The Report of the Committee on the Bye Laws was read,
and the Committee continued.
The CHAIRMAN then adverted to the special business of the
Meeting,which was to resume the consideration of the Bill for con-
solidating the Acts relating to the trade of India, and especial-
ly that clause of it which went to remove the present restric-
tion, which prevented vessels under 350 tons burthen from tra-
ding to India. He stated, that the Court of Directors had con-
sidered the continuation of this restriction proper; but as it had
been in some measure rendered nugatory by subsequent Acts
of the Legislature, they resolved not to object to it. They had
wished, however, to be guided by the opinion of the Court of
Proprietors, and for that purpose the last and present Meet-
ings had been held. He knew not how he could bring the
matter before them unless by a motion of concurrence in the
proposition of the Board of Controul. He would do this, how-
ever, merely for the purpose of brining the subject before
them. If the motion were not generally approved, he would
not persevere in it ; he would merely propose for the pur-
pose that they might discuss. He would propose, " That
the Court agree t 9 the repeal of the Act by which vessels un-
der 330 tons burthen are prohibited from trading between this
country and India." The Honourable Chairman then read
-the correspondence which had taken place between the Court of
Directors and the Board of Trade. He mentioned, that in all
the correspondence and communication which the Court of
Directors had had with that Board, they had excepted the arti-
cle of •t(ugar ; and that he had received from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer a letter, intimating- that the present duties were
to be continued but for one year, and that the subject would be
taken up and fully discussed by a Committee of the House of
CoMmons early in the next session.
Mr. FORBES, M. P. felt much pleased at the candid and
clear manner in which the business had been introduced by the

Honourable Chairman ; and he hoped that, though he felt it his
duty to propose an amendment to the motion of the Hon. Chair-
man, he would do it in such a manner as would show tho
he was far from entertaining any personal hostility to the Ho-
nourable Chairman. When the subject was brought before
the Court formerly, it had been so fully discussed, that there
was no need now of treating it with any great minuteness.—
Tie would therefore say, that all which the Company looked
for at the hands of his Majesty's Government was merely
justice. If they were called upon to surrender a part of their
chartered rights, they ought not to do this without some
equivalent. They ought to bear in mind that this con-
duct of theirs was not to affect themselves merely, for it
would have an influence upon the condition of 100,000,000 of
human beings. He would merely call the attention of the
•Court to the leading facts,. and leave the arguments to Gentle-
men who knew the principles and the details better than he.
This was no new question. It had been discussed 30 years ago;
and he would beg that the Resolutions of 1792 be read. They
were read accordingly. They stated, in substance, that the in-
crease in the price of sugar was owing to the variations in the
supply from the West Indies ' • and that this would be corrected
by allowing the sugars of the East Indies to be imported on the
same tirms, and at the same duties as those of the West. His view
of the iresent case was to propose an amendment which would
be in substance a confirmation of those Resolutions, as he
thought they were as applicable to the Present time as to
that for which they were passed. There was one general
principle from which he thought Government could not well
dissent ; and that was, that the Colony which took most of
the manufacture of the mother country ought to enjoy the
largest share of protection. He would beg leave to call the
attention of the Court to a Meeting of Merchants and others
interested in the affairs of India, which had been held on.
the 18th. All that he would propose had been fully recog-
nized
by ,that Meeting ; and if he were allowed he would read.
their Resolutions (the Resolutions were read as part of the Ho-
nourable Proprietor's speech). There was one objection to the
Bill, as at present worded, to which he wished to call particular
attention ; and that was, that the removal of the prohibition of
vessels under three hundred and fifty tons burden applied only
to British built vessels. It might, for aught he knew, be
the intention of the Board of Controul, that it should extend
to ships built in British India ; but certainly the expression
went to exclude them. Now though ,he was willing to admit
that the condition of the shipping interest in this country was
by no means good, he contended that that of the India ship-
ping was no better; and that, therefore, while Ministers at-
tended to the interests of British shipping, they ought not to
overlook those of India. The trade in both countries was
equally depressed, or if any one was suffering more than the
other, it was India—for in that country the greater part of the
ships were lying rotting in the rivers. Now if small ships were
allowed to go out to India, and to trade from port to port there,
without restriction, they would produce the greatest hardship
and misery to the people of that country. They would run
away with' he most valuable part of the trade; it being well
known that small ships could easily procure valuable cargoes,
while larger ones were not only found to wait longer, but also
to take inferior articles, which could not bear to pay so high a
freight. Besides this, they would ruin the trade of ship-build-
ing in India, and the trade of the country ships, by engaging
in the carrying, of goods from one port of the country to another.
The Company ought not to sacrifice their chartered rights,
without a fair equivalent. Besides, the Proprietors had not
been duly apprised of the introduction of the Bill, and it had
been introduced at too late a period of the Session. On these
accounts it should be delayed till the next Session. It
seemed that the Board of Controul thought very lightly of
the Court of Proprietors, and thought they only needed the
consent of the Chairman and Court of Directors. The Bill
was carried through, too, without any very great respect
for its importance; the second having, for instance, been pro-
posed in the House of Commons this morning, at one o'clock,
and that too when there was in fact no House, only 37 Mem-
bers being-present. The reading had been opposed and 'put
off till Friday ; and lie would assure the Court that he would
oppose it in every stage, and if possible get it to stand over
till next Session.—(Applause.)—He thought that the questions
of the tonnage of the ships, and the duty on sugar, ought not
to be separated. They ought to go hand in hand, and if the
Company conceded the one, Government ought to concede die
other. As for him, he understood that when the law authorizing
the free trade with India (a law which had been productive
of advantage to both countries) had been passed, it was un-
derstood that British ships were not to Interfere with the
country trade of India, any more than India-built ships were to
interfere with the coasting or country trade of Britain. If
a Committee of the House of Commons were to take up the
sugar question next Session, then the best way would be
to postpone the Bill till that Committee had finished its
deliberations. He contended that the high duty on East
India sugar was unjust, not merely to India, but to the
whole consumers of sugar in this country. If, therefore, it
were to be delayed till its merits could be fairly discussed, the
sense of the people of England would be expressed in Peti-
tions against it. He did not mean that they would beat up for
Petitions, and he should be sorry to think of their resorting
to such conduct ; but he knew that they had only to do what,
he hoped, would be done by the public announcement of
their opinions that day, to state that their rights, and the
rights of the people, had been attempted to be imposed upon,
and they would find the public ready to do them justice. He
knew that the opinion which he was to state, would not be pa-
latable to the Government, but he must repeat (what he had
stated formerly), that there was a bias to others and against them
—(Hear ! )_-He would say this here, and he would say it in the
House of Commons, as often as he had occasion. He hoped
that through the whole course of his public conduct, no one
could accuse him- of having advocated private or particular in-
terests in preference to general ones. He hoped, therefore, he
would not be misunderstood when he stated, that he wished to
see such a Reform in Parliament as would give to the interests
of India a more full and equitable representation, and he trusted
he could do thus much without laying himself open to the
charge of being a Radical Reformer. The Honourable Pro-
prietor paid some handsome compliments t 9 Mr. C. Grant, for
his zeal and attention to the interests of India ; and concluded
by moving as an amendment—
" That the existing limitation as to the size of vessels em-
ployed in the East India trade is a part of the compact with the
East India Company, to which the faith of Parliament is pled-
ged.
" That this Court cannot consent to the relinquishment of
this part of the compact, unless reciprocal concessions are ob-
tained, by the restoration of East India-built ships to the right
of full British registry, and by the admission of Sugars from
British India, for home-consumption, on equal terms with
Sugars produced in other dependencies of the British Empire.
That this Court are induced to adopt these Resolutions, not
merely on commercial grounds, as affecting the people of the
United Kingdom, but on behalf of one hundred millions of our
fellow-subjects in India, whose rights and interests are involved
therein, and which it is the bounden duty of the East India
Company to protect."
Mr. TRANT thought they were bound to attend to the inte-
rests of the British Empire in India, towards which it seemed
that the Board of Controul did not mind, though they exercised a
certain donee violence. They did this upon the pretence that the
West Indians laboured under certain disadvantages which did not
apply to the East; buthe knew of no disadvantages which the one

laboured under from which the other was exempted. Hethe c°l'"''
tended that the introduction of small ships, coupled with r!
°
fusal of the importation of sugar, would be ruinous not only !...
the manufactures, but to the agriculture of India. Be knew
the distressed state of that country from the falling off of the
manufactures. He knew that in bladras alone, five factories&
employing 18,000 men each, had recently been stopped;
thus, in this one instance, nearly 100,000 men had been tiroev;i::
as a burden on the agricultural interest. He gave the Am id
meat his decided support.
Mr. PETER MOORE was most anxious not to mislead others.
He thouhrlit that the Court should not allow the' oard of Con-
troul to depreciate the contract. He thought it right to i'
courage the private trader by every fair means ; but it ought hot_
'to be done in such a way, or to such an extent, as to injure ell
interests of India and of this country at the same time. Il'lre,ll3.
been the opinion of Mr. Fox, and of the other great g
leaders, that the interests of India and of this country had
ha bedeen -
sacrified for those of the Mrest India Colonies. • They
dared that the East Indies if properly attended to would be
of the utmost importance to this countryi and that adv f
tages of India, if properly improved, mght be the means °
paying the national debt. They had marked the vast differeneo
in the expence of procuring sugar in the East Indies and in the
West. In the West Indies it was almost 51d. a pound, Ita
in the East it was not more than one halfpenny. This
ro-
ference was owing to the sugar in the one country being p
duced by slaves, and in the other by freemen. If we Were t°
have none but West India sugar in this country, then there
would, of necessity, be an increase of the home trade ; and
der such an encouragement it was in vain to talk of the abo 1
tion of that traffic.
Mr. CARRUTHERS rose and caught the eye of the Chai irc:
man, but at the same instant Mr. S. Dixon began to sPea
The Chairman called him to order.
Mr. Dixos—" I rose not to speak—l rose only to ask
question." He wished to ask the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Moo ~
e,
if he had said that slaves were now imported directly to t
British colonies ?
Mr. P. MOORE replied, that they were imported first to the
Havannah.
Mr. CARRUTHERS would ,speak his mind to any man, 11
he high—be he base. He thought the Court bound to atten
to the interests of the West Indians; they ought to consi,der
the question not as it affected the interests of resident maniac:
turers and traders, but as it affected those of Stock-proprietor?,n°•
and if it could be shown not to hurt the Stock-proprietors,
did not see how the Court could object to it. He would SI;
port the original motion. If India shipping were to en.i°Y the
full advantages of registers, it would be most injurious to
shipping of this country ; and they ought not to injure he
mother country for the sake of the colonies.
Mr. TUCKER felt pleased with the numbers and reap
eetr
bility of the Court. They had both Greeks and Troislit
both East Indians and 'West. To all, however, he was °tile
ous to address what was reason and truth. He thought e
Court had a right to assist the Legislature, and ought to 11,4
been consulted by the Directors. He would not take "„f
metaphysical part of political economy out of the hands "of
Mr. Ricardo; but he would state some simple principles t,
commerce. There were some /lands which afforded no re:
and the sugar estates of the West Indies were many of es aim
of this description. The rents of these 'West India es°he
were therefore paid either by the British public or by the
East India trader. This was borne out by the opinion was
Ricardo, Mill, and others, the' first men of the day itri
most unfair to allow such a difference in the duty upon sob',
from the East Indies and from the West, considering th,3,'„„5
1813 the difference was only 3s. in the cwt. If the East 111'40
were not allowed to pay any part of their dues in kind, they Oho
not be expected to pay long in the precious metals. If theYbieh
to import bullion, they would soon produce a scarcitY what,
would produce low prices and ruin to them. The Chairmania
at a former Meeting, given a flattering account of the sld ;
out of which the Stock Proprietors' dividend was to be
but if they had to import the Sicca rupee at ls. 10o•i
.6d
stead of.importing goods. by which it would be worth 2s. .tie
the profit of the Stock Proprietor must he reduced to ht
or nothing. If this were the case, a depreciated PPer
rency might be introduced into India, the consequences of
would be lamentable. With regard to the question of the
Spiv
ping, although it had been ably advocated, he would be fq. 0,0„
ing it up, provided that the Company
.got a small share °Lifoyi.
tice in return. There was this objection to small shiPs7 seas,
ever, that they would not be so well acquainted with the _raj
o; so well navigated. Still he would not object to it on getto,
principles. He complimented Mr. Forbes for the interest
he took in the affairs of the Company, supported his Reo,ec
tions, and called upon other Honourable Proprietors to dolitcr.
same. He was particularly pressing upon one gentleman (
Alexander, we understood) ; and in order to induce him t?„;,,- al
dress the Court, quoted a passage of Homer, in the 0135--
Greek, giving at the same time Pope's translation. ,_,„d
The CHAIRMAN here intimated, that he had just recei‘,;
communication from the President of the Board of Trade,Tvo
mating, that in consequence of the lateness of the season Z. be
intendd to omit all clauses in the Bill to which there wool in'
serious objections on tha part of the Court ; and that it 'OS la
A
tended to postpone to next Session the clause which allow e,,
direct trade to India with the British colonies in the 'West S.as
dies and North America. Under such circumstances,
expected that the clause relating to the removal of the rest"'
tion on the ships would meet with no opposition. ornotutii•
Mr. TWINING thought, that notwithstanding this C ot•
cation, it would be as well to discuss the matter before the m
ing. The Hon. Proprietor then quoted some Latin, hop.l;
that he would be pardoned after another Hon. Gentleman (said
Tucker) had quoted a more learned language (Mr. Tucker g?
he had given a translatiori of his Greek). He (Mr. Twi° cto
did not see why the Board of Controul should not take, tiTcar•
discuss the proposal made to them by the Court. In allits,ool
ings this was one of the most important questions that.,
come before the Court. rt to
Mr. C. GRANT wished first to call the attention of the CI. the
the state of India, as brought under the arbitrary power et bad
greater state. This was evinced by the great increase tin 01°
taken place in the exportation of British manufactures' or'
duties had not only excluded the cottons of India from olihr c,o-
kets, but had made us exporters to a great extent. l'.oaki
vernment laid a duty upon the manufactures of India, and a liar
not allow the Indian Government to impose a counter tbe
duty. This was very hard. In the case of the sligars'trade
effect was the same. By these means we injured our own pie
with India. True, we sent many things which the i",-/ealw
of that country were willing to take ; but then, as we
take none of their goods in, return, they were unable toysocie3
It was unfair to put a burden on one part of our depen,"aeia,l,;
for the sake of relieving another. As to the ships, afarfere".
was clear that the coasting trade ought not to be ini", eist,
with;—and he (Mr. Grant) 'remembered well, that till' ;Ist
the opinion of . the Ministers 'at the time when Iferalgt-
opening the trade to India was passed. It was °,"
however, that it would be so construed as to n'',! fo"
that interference, and that being the case, the interfere/ 00'
lowed as a matter of course. If, however, the Board °be n°
troul asked the Court to concede this matter, there coulo.,ia be
impropriety in asking an equivalent. All the points slic',oo'
stood upon. He concurred as to the little Representations
India had in the House of Commons ; he thought all t" f d'",
of India owing to those who had advocated the Openittal 0°-
Trade.—They had been hurried on by passion, andlt the
given to all the circumstances that consideration whi'd
merited. He trusted., however, that the general feeling
Court now would be to watch over the interests of Irldia. LP"
Mr. WEETING regretted that the Chairman had lotde 11°,
motion for approval of the proposal of the Board of Traunrtio
thought the question of the sugar would be more easilY 705
than that of the shipping. The difference of the duty
bonus of 30,000 a year against the Company. That ,_cl°„el4`"
if contended for, must be ultimately carried, because-toe I
had an interest in it.
to beat
Mr. R. JACKSON thought that the question ought on
the investigation of the impartial, and that their decisic9th the
should be such that they could identify themselves lit,/ acle°
public. The admission of small ships into the countrY ;traer;
India ought not to be -admitted, as it would admit
able, incomprehensible, and indescribable persons,ogj
oouugghhtt. ntootptoaussuebjeercet
tihteyotouftnr:clidtoeiduitt:tel;:'
shores of India; and make those shores be visited by "-"st
mpraedssejoinn.diaThoue
persons from all parts of Europe. Though oon,lag
r(siotwiret
thing to Government. They ought to reflect that 1-",kst
butcour tos e between thhdee
dEast
I Indiesuex t asneds thes in . Colonies They in the '1 "red
upon, the diminution which would take place in the cc°
every thing returned from India. They ought to Ils'uS°;;
they made one of the greatest articles of Indian produce siy. pet
we suppose) a dead letter. It was not fair to levy °nevi, ail;
cent. on our exports to them, and impose about 70 cal tw 11„fS
ports to us. Why not make both equal ? At anY rye D 1
not adjourn the business till they had the advantage °'
quis of Hastings ? If the restriction were odiousz itei'v as
five times re-enacted, and one of those times so iati-isb
Session of Parliament.' If they could not acconiP:'lo-aerw"
thing they wished, much might be done without 3 ,1
rAte rem
equality of duty ; . and he thought they should at anY
cord the Amendment.
. some,g
Mr. GAHAGAN read (amid cries Of " Question foow,
tracts of the opinions of the Lords and Commons (c the epioTe`i
the one with the other), tending to shew that it w"
gel,
of certain Illustrious Persons, that it would be better vortai;
India built ships than to prevent British one of sroar so°3
from visiting India. The Hon. Proprietor proceede!l,,
length, but at last sat down amid cries of " Question ! ,;„el,"`
Ofv
out and denied the advantages of a register, while elm were P,
West, •c re
mensrai Canada, and the other colonies in the t, o
This
was the wore
Mr. MONEY could not see why India ships should ,e_e
lowed all the advantages of it.

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