The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-03 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Sir F. T. BARING proposed that a sum not exceed-
ing 200,0001. should be granted towards defraying the
excess of naval expenditure.

Mr. HUME said as this was not simply a vote of
money for public expenditure, but a vote for money ex •
pended without the sanction of Parliament, he could not
allow it to pass without observing that no Hon. Member,
by agreeing to it, was to be considered as having com-
promised himself.—(Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.—Report to be received
en Monday.
The House then resumed.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
On the question of going into Committee on the Poor-
law (Ireland), petitions were presented Nom the grand
jury e( Meath, from Limerick, and from various boards
of guardians, strongly deprecating, the proposed rate
Inadld•
The Hove went into Committee.
Resolutions having been read by Mr. BERNAL,
Lord J. RIJSSELL said—l rise now for the purpose
of explaining to the Committee the course which her
Majesty's Government wish to pursue with respect to
this most difficult question, the poor law in Ireland.
Earlier this session I proposed to appoint a Committee,
stating dt the same time that my feeling was that, al-
though there were certain amendments which the Go-
vernment had in view, it would be desirable that some
gentlemen who were representatives from Ireland, as
well as other Members of the House, should be ap•
pointed in order to aid by their knowledge, by their ex-
perience, and by their acquaintance with the feelings
and -opinions of the people of Ireland, as well as of
this country, 'Ai the discussion of so arduous a matter.
I brought before that Committee, at its first
meeting, several propositions. I stated as I shall
state, what I conceive to be the general working
of the poor-law in Ireland. It appears to me that
so far m.B this House was desirous in 1847 of placing on
the pry party of Ireland the charge of that destitution
which it was foreseen must be very appalling for a con-
siderable time, and would at all times be of very large
amount—so for as r(gards the relief of destitution by
rates collected in Ireland for the relief of the poor, that
object has, in a great degree, been attained. It is not
to be denied, however, that in accomplishing that object
'various evils have arisen, some from peculiar circum-
stances of a local nature, but others of a more general
nature, and which do require the serious attention, first
of the Committee and afterwards of this House. Gene-
rally speaking, I think it is to be admitted that in many
parts of Ireland the poor-law imposes a very considerable
burden, inereastng in the course of a very short time, and
accompanied, as the imposition of that burden is, by cir-
cumstances of no ordinary nature. The occupiers of
inlreland, land Ireland, instead of
considering the burden of
giving e
pauperism a reason for
emptloyment, have, on the
x
contrary, taken alarm at the extent of the burden to
which they might be subjected and
,haveti3ia rather dimi-
nished than increased the number of ourersin their.
employ. Although it is contrary to the
general
more especially the poor-law
En land, witch -
pies of the poor law,
contemplates_at
the
ee
destitutereliet
of distress
poor shall
21t
wherever it may exist,
either ba relieved in tlair own houses, or if able-bodied,
shall be sent to work at the expense of the local com-
munity—an expense that may rise to any amount which
in the first instance the parish, and afterwards this coun-
try, may be able to bear—it appears to the Government
notwithstanding the divergence from such principles,
that it would be expedient for Irish purposes
that there should be a maximum rate beyond
which the poor-rate should not go. In proposing
a maximusa rate it was necessary to consider whether
it should be an union rate or an electoral division rate,
and also whether any extraneous aid should be given
to raise it. I proposed to the Committee that there

should be, first, a rate of ss. in the pound; that is to say,
that the poor-rate should not exceed ss. in the electoral
divisions, and that when the necessities of the case ren-
dered a further rate necessary, one not exceeding 2s. in
the pound should be collected from the unions, making
a total of 7s. in the pound. The Committee appeared to
be generally favourable to a maximum rate, but required
to receive some evidence on the subject, more especially
with regard to the amount at which it might be expe-
dient to fix the maximum. Finding the general opinion
of the Committee to be as I have stated with respect to
that part of the plan which I had proposed, I consented
to withdraw the resolatioas which I had submitted to the
Committee, in order that they might proceed to take
evidence. But before I went into the Committee I
stated in this House that if, at any time, I should come
to the decision that it was desirable particular mea-
sures should be adopted, I should feel myself jus-
tified in coming down to this House and proposing them,
even although the Committee might not
_approve:of
them. Ido not, however, at present, purpose submitting
any proposition to the House on the subject of a
maximum rate. lam willing to wait until the Commit-
tee shall receive further evidence on the subject, but it
certainly is the decided opinion of the Government that
whether ss. and 25., in the way I have referred to, be the
proper limit or not, in the present circumstances of Ire-
land a maximum is desirable, and that by its means we
could combine the relief of destitution (which has, to a
great extent, been achieved) with the encouragement of
industry and the improved cultivation of the soil. I will
proceed to state some other measures which the Govern-
ment have in contemplation with regard to the poor-law,
but with respect to which I have not asked for the opi-
nion of the Committee, although I expect to submit
them to its consideration at some future time as modifi-
cations of the existing poor-law system. One of the pro-
posed alterations is to this effect, that when improve-
ments are made upon land—agricultural improvements—
no increased valuation should take place in respect of
them for a certain number of years.—(Hear, hear)
Whether the period of exemption should be seven
years or ten years is a point respecting which con-
siderable difference of opinion prevails. I think that
the time should be limited to ten years, although,
perhaps, seven would be sufficient. Another altera-
tion refers to a question upon which a great deal
of attention has been fixed during the discussions which
have taken place from the very commencement of the
amended poor-law in 1817, and upon which lam de-
sirous of stating some general views to this House—l
allude to the question of the area of taxation. Many!per-
sons, including I believe the majority of the Irish Mem-
bers both in the Committee up stairs and in this House,
are of opinion that it is desirable to have a maximum of
distance beyond which the poor-rate should not extend.
They are of opinion that persons would be far more likely
to occupy land and expend capital in its cultivation, if
they knew that they would not be subjected to a ruinous
rate. They allege that land would more readily find
purchasers'if it were known that the whole rental of the
estate would not be swallowed up by poor-rates. It has
been urged in support of a more limited area of taxation,
that landowners and occupiers having a Certain num-
ber of labourers residing in their particular districts, to
whom they are able to give employment, will not be
likely to expend their capital in that manner, if they
are to be called upon to bear the burden of supporting
the unemployed labourers upon the estates of their im-
mediate neighbours. Whilst I admit that this is a
plausible argument, I must at the same time say, that
I think it is impossible to consider the question Wall
its bearings without seeing, that if the principle were
adopted of saying that each property shall form a
separate area of taxation, liable only to the support of
the poor found upon it, serious evils would result.—
(Hear, hear.) In the first place, if this principle were
to be adopted, it seems to me that you could not refuse
to extend to small proprietors the benefit given to large
ones.—(Hear, hear.) The returns drawn up by the eh rk
of the Limerick Union mention, amongst several rentals
of large amount, ono of only 301. per annum. How would
it be possible to say " We protect estates worth 2,000/.
or 3,000/, a year from being swamped by the negligence
of the owners of neighbouring property, but we will not
concede the same advantage to the owner of land of the
value of only 30/. per annum?"—(Hear.) There would
be manifest injustice in such a course of proceeding; yet,
if you concede to the owners of small properties the ad-
vantage of separate taxation, it is obvious that great
confusion must ensue, and that it would hardly be pos-
sible to carry the poor-law into effect at all. I see how
the regulation would work in both directions. The owner
of an estate having land susceptible of improvement
would employ his capital in setting every able-bodied
labourer upon the estate to work; and he would ultimately
reap his reward, not only in the happiness
and comfort which he would be the means of
diffusing around him, but also in the augmented value
of his property. But we have the testimony of all be-
longing to Ireland to the fact, that there is in that coun-
try another class of landlords who would take a course
directly opposite to that which I have described ; and
the first impulse of these men, looking only to the returns
which they can get from their land, when they found
tlat they were to be taxed for the support of all the in-
firm and unemployed persons residing upon it, would be
to rid the land of what they deemed ineumbrances
(Hear, hear.) The consequence would be, that people
would he driven in large numbers Irons the agricultural
.istriets (as we have seen in the course of the last thirty
ears) into the suburbs of large towns, there to live as
mendicants for a short time, until they perish by disease
and want.—(El hear.) Again, if you should
determine that each property should be subject only to
its own rate for the stipport of its own po you would
find that you h.td established a much more stringent law
of :eAt,enent thau exists in this country.—(Hear, hear.)
You would find that, although labourers might fied
employment from the owners and occupiers of land
within the district where they resided, if they should
travel out of that circle but for a few miles, or even a
shorter distance, in search of better wages, they would
be driven back into their own locality, and thus, instead
of maintaining the character of free and indeFendsnt
labourers, they would be reduced to the condition of
serfs to their landlords—(Hear, hear.) Whilst these are
the objections—and they seem to me insuperable—to the
subdivision of the area of taxation proposed by some
poor law reformers in Ireland, there is, at the same time,
no doubt, considerable inconvenience resulting in many
instances from the size of the unions being co-extensive
with the electoral divisions. The Commissioners to
whom I alluded last night have taken the subject into
their consideration. They have compared the unions
and electoral divisions of the south with those of the
north, and although there doubtless are many physical
circumstances in the face of the country at the two
points which must exercise an influence, they are
nevertheless of opinion that the more minute subdivision
of the area of taxation in the north has been fa-
vourable to the development of industry, and they
therefore suggest that the size of some of the large
unions in the south should be contracted. The ex-
tent to which that recommendation ought to be carried is
a question which may fairly be left to the consideration
of the Committee up stairs, which will have the opportu-
nity of examining persons who have been engaged in
forming new unions and new electoral divisions. Should
the Committee adopt the suggestion of the Commis-
sioners they would not be sanctioning the principle to
which I have before adverted, namely, that of making
each property rateable for the support of its own poor
exclusively. Such an amendment of the electoral divi-
sions as the Commissioners propose (bearing in mind
more particularly that those divisions were formed for a
different poor-law) would be just and reasonable, whilst
the limitation of taxation to individual estates would be
a serious and permanent evil. There are other amend-
ments of the poor-law to which it is unnecessary for me
to allude; but one has been suggested to which the
Government has given fair consideration, and with
respect to which I am ready to state my views. It
has been suggested, that whereas the land in Ireland
is burdened with certain charges which were fixed upon
it before the poor-law was introduced into that
country, it is only fair that those charges should be made
to contribute to the poor-rate as well as the rent of the
landlord. I think it would be impossible to subject
mortgages to a tax like the poor-rate, which is of
variable ansount, not fixed like a tax levied for the public
Exchequer; and, besides, to make a deduction from the
mortgagee's income would induce him to withdraw the
money he has lent, thereby increasing the distress
already prevailing in Ireland. With respect to charges
arising out of family settlements, I think the case is
different. I think that those 'charges having been fixed
on the land when a poor-law could not have been con-
templated, and when the landowner believed that be
would continue to receive his rental without deduction,
it is but reasonable that they should, as far
as practicable, be subjected to deductions on
alaencdo.untThiosf
appliestlae poor-rateto
settlements
arten the
riorto
ma u
made
the introduction of the poor-law, for all settle-
ments entered into since that time must be taken to
have been arranged with due regard to the
must, ne
someshpeer c t
matteru st therefore, ,
proceeding.upon wha
el nuhod telbt be
o thinkpl
arnods prospective.
which
evehes
has
naa
There
state
.of
things. The relief to be afforded to the landowners
aitsdh
oiaspn
tor et
been unoccupied, and on which considerable arrears of
rate have accumulated. I think that in order to induce
tenants to occupy such land and to bring it into cultiva-
tion, the arrears should for once be remitted. I would
not wish to mske:this a general rule; but I think that
for once it may be done. I now come to that which
more peculiarly forms the subject of the resolution
which I have placed in the hands of the chairman of this
Committee of the whole House, and in so doing I must
refer to the letter which the Poor-law Commissioners
addressed to Lord Clarendon, dated December 11,
1848. In page 7of that document I find the following
passage:—
"Of the entire number of unions, 131, there are, per-
haps, 20 which require to be considered separately from
the remainder, as presenting peculiar difficulties. There
is a second class, consisting of 10 or 11 unions, in which
the present amount of out-door relief is considerable, but
in which, by dint of exertion, serious financial embar-
rassments may be avoided, and the destitution at the
same time be effectually relieved, without external aid.
Of the remaining unions, say 100, there are 37 in which
no relief is at present given out of the workhouse; in
the other 63 the extent of out-door relief is for the most
part inconsiderable, the aggregate total cost little ex-
ceeding 1,800/. weekly; while the additional workhouse
accommodation provided in those unions is calculated to
meet a considerable pressure, before the necessity of re-
sorting to extensive out-door relief will be again ac-
knowledged." 1

In considering this subject, as I stated on a former oc-
casion, we must never lose sight of the effect of the re-
cent great failure of that root which has been the staple
food of the country. It is impossible to look upon these
districts as existing in the state in which they were in
1836 and 1837, when the Poor-law Commissioners of
Inquiry made their report. However pitiable it may have
appeared at that time that there should be so many of
the inhabitants of Ireland living in mud cabins with only
one room, if room it can be called, the condition of those