The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-09 00:00:00

WaS of opinion thee the f-7i
mean. of cra...ee s'.,!:
the colonists; anti, to evoici doing a inn. Oiscie-
tionary power ought to be given to the Government to
carry out the eystem under those modifications they
considered necessary for the welfare of the colonies and
of this country.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME said, much that had fallen from the
Right Hon. Gentleman convinced him of the necessity of
having all the documents and information on this sub-
ject it was possible to lay before the House previous to
bringing on a discussion of this nature. They ought
to be aware what modifications or changes had taken
Place in the system, and how these changes and
modifications were operatiug. In regard to all
these they were totally ignorant ; and he was
glad, in one respect, that the subject had been intro-
duced, for it now came out that the Government having
inflicted considerable evil on the colonies by means of
these alterations in the system of transportation, had
,adopted another system. But what was the use of fol.
lowing this ever-varying course in regard to this ques-
tion? Some years ago they had a model prison erected
at Pentonville, in a most healthy situation, and they had
Convicts sent there, and kept at three times the expense
Which ordinary convicts cost the country, and all that in
order to test the working of a new system. Well, cer-
tainly sufficient time had now been given to test the
working of the solitary system, but yet, up to the pre-
sent hour, no report or resolution had been come to in
order that they might decide whether that or the other
system should be adopted. If the Pentonville system was
good, it ought to be introduced into every prison in
the kingdom. He contended that, by the system they
had adopted, they were keeping in this country a vast
number of those convicts who ought to be sent out of
it as speedily as possible.—(Hear, hear.) Let them
go to Pentonville, and what did they see? Why, a
large number of those convicts employed at a very gen-
teel and agreeable employment of making mats, an ern-
PIOyMOZt 80 genteel and agreeable that a set of ladies'
maids might be set to it with equal propriety, and yet
they called that hard labour, and considered it a just and
proper punishment for criminals.—(Hear.) His opinion
Was that they might keep those parties in prison at such
Work for 10, 20, or 30 years, but their attempts to re-
form them by such means would prove an utter failure,
as they had already done. All the information he had
gathered from those in charge of prisons, aid, conse-
quently, well acquainted with the treatment of prisoners,
convinced him in that opinion. Not many days ago, he
paid a visit to one of those public establishments in West-
minster, and a gentleman happened to be there at the
time who was a great advocate for this reformatory sys-
tem, and said he had himself seen a reformed prisoner.
The governor of that prisoner immediately said he would
go 40 miles to see such an individual, as he did not be-
lieve such a being existed, and he (Mr. Hume) was of
his opinion, there never had been such art individual. The
abuses of the present system, however, showed the ne-
cessity there was for the appointment of some officer of
justice or some individual, no matter what his title, to
claseify and arrange convicts as to their mode and place
of punishment; but, at all events, he would not have
them remain in this country to undergo the sentence
of transportation. He considered the ph.n of assignment
a. very good one. The Right Hun. Gentleman had said
that it was a system of slavery, and so it ought to be.—
pear, hear.) He did not like that feeling of morbid
humanity which would endeavour to screen these who
merited punishment from its infliction. He agreed with
the Noble Lord that transportation ought never to have
been discontinued; but at the same time he would not
send convicts to the colonies in such numbers as to in-
commode or prove injurious to the colonists. A great
Liexpense was incurred to the country in consequence of
lo failure of the punishment of imprisonment, and the
ringing up of those subjected to it so often for new
offences. That, he conceived ought to be remedied by
transportation, but he would keep no convicts in the
icountry longer than they could be sent away to the Co..`nnywhich had been selected for them.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON considered that the state
of the question for the last few years had been most un-
satisfactory. He highly approved of the change adopted
by the present Government, and wished, as well for his
Oien information as for that of the country, to know how
far that principle of separation to which the Right Hon.
2 r
onet (Sir G. Grey) had alluded should be carried.
1
e Iron. Baronet then alluded to the opinion of the
AIM V
• Mr. Nealer on the system of separation and pu-
nishment in the penal colonies, and said he perfectly
~agreed with that clergyman, for he (Sir J. Pakington)
'nought that the best and most judicious system
was to treat the convicts in such a manner as their va-
rious dispositions seemed to require, so that their cha-
freeler and good conduct might be subservient to their
uture emancipation and independence; and thought that
anY system, which would tend to inculcate on the
minds of convicts a spirit of self-reliance and industry,
Could be engrafted on the plan now carried out by Go-
vernment, that a great and useful result would be the
Consequence, not only to those convicts, but to society in
those penal colonies.
ale GLADSTONE did not think that full justice
had been done to the probation system of 1846, which
had been carried on under Lord Stanley, and had conti-
oued during a part of his (Mr. Gladstone's) period of
ffic,e when he saw that there were many and great
evils arising from the system of transportation he had
suggested to his colleagues to put a suspension to trans-
portation for 18 months, because it had been a system
productive of horrors and of iniquity, which he felt fully
assured must ultimately destroy itself as a system,
dhe should add that Sir W. Dennison approved of
the alteration made in that system by Lord Stanley, for
he (Sir W. Dennison) had stated to the then Govern-
ment, that a considerable improvement was effected.
'tie regretted be found it to be his duty to state that he
considered there was too great a precipitation on the part
of the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord
Grey) with regard to two measures--the first, that of
breaking up the penal settlement of Norfolk Island, and,
easecondly, that of conveying convicts from New South
Wales to Van Diemen's Land; for the Noble Lord (Lord
Grey) said, the convicts should be removed from
by
Island to Tasmania, which order was disobeyed
,37 Sir W. Dennison, and the result was, that this
Judicious act of disobedience was subsequently highly
t:;Pparov Strung
eof by the Noble Lord (Lord Grey), which
and evident proof that the conduct of the
Secretary for the Colonies had been precipitate in
!hat part of the business. lie would next state that
lie felt pleased that there was no intention on the
Part of the Government to entirely do away with the
former system, and hoped that the Noble Lord (Lard
he would extend the area of transportation, because
ue felt sorry to say that there was at present a consider-
able deviation from the prudence and wisdom of our an-
clators when the states of North America received con-
but so few in number, comparatively speaking,
With the settlers, that they were totally lost among the
population. He feared that the ruinous and demoralis-
,eg system of confining convicts to a small area of terri-
‘urY would bring odium on the name and idea of trans-
Portation, and that, therefore, particular caution and
tivt'rY possible effort would be required on the part of
ue Secretary for the Colonies to maintain the system
af transportation without exciting prejudice and disgust
le the public mind. It was for that reason that he re-
gretted that the foundation of such a penal colony as
-I.aseaania was not carried out; for he did not think that
be
opening of a new dour was a measure that should
ue discouraged, particularly when he hoped that Go•
l'"nneent would take into their consideration the import-
-Bece of opening as many receptacles for convicts as pus-
-2°le, lest the system might become so obnoxious that it
must be given up altogether.
discussion, but rose to ask whether Van Diemen's Land
were
to be a receptacle for convicts ; and whether there
were any other colonies to be opened for transports ?
, Mr. Alderman SIDNEY would have wished to have
heard that a proper system of prison discipline was
about to be established, so that there might be an end of
repeated re-committals. As to the gaol of Newgate and
the Rouse of Correction, they were amongst the monster
evils of the system of transportation in this country.
Mr. P. SCROPE referred to the state of the Irish
gaols, and asked who was to be regarded as responsible
for them ?
.„ Sir G. GREY, in answer to the Hon. Member for
ureitwich, stated that the utmost period to which soli-
tary imprisonment could extend was eighteen months,
but it might be reduced on tho report and recommenda-
tion of those who made a tn_nthly examination of the
prisoners. In answer to the Hon. Member for Dumfries,
he stated the three colonies to which convicts were to be
sent were Van Diemen's Land, New South Arales, and
the Cape of Good Hope. As to the question relating to
the Irish gaols, he referred to the report of the in-
aPectors of prisons.
The motion was then agreed to.
MALr TAX.
Mr. DISRAELI, at nine o'clock, rose and presented
a Petition which he had just received, and that was
signed by nearly 2,000 persons in the actual occupation
et; lend in the counties of Cambridge and Suffolk, com-
Pleining of the malt-tax as most unjust to the agricul-
tural interest, and praying for its repeal.
The petition was, amid loud cheers, laid on the table,
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. DISRAELI—Mr. Speaker, I rise with the hope
that I may induce the House of Commons to consent to
It great measure of justice, of conciliation, and of policy.
:-(Rear, hear.) It is not my intention on this occasion
`c enter into any detailed demonstration that great dis_
tress exists in the agricultural districts of this country
th-ether that distress exists or not is not necessary for
e e
t argument ia which I mean to recommend to your
tititention the resolutions that I have placed upon your
aule• But, Sir, I shall not enter into these details, bee
mllse I believe it is generally acknowledged that that
stress does exist.--(Hear, hear.) It is only a few
nights since that an Honourable Gentleman, a Member
eathis House, came forward and offered his voluntarily
;"dence in that behalf—a witness certainly not to be
ei4Peeted of any morbid sympathy with the agricultural
a,sses—the Honourable Member for Manchester. He
ne.d us the other night tht he could not for a moment
Znneeal from himself that t a
here was distress amongst the
-4Rvieultural classes of this country—distress most severe
t3iParamount; and lam willing to leave the state of
this
to depend upon his testimony. Nor, Sir, am lon
occasion about to enter into any inquiry as to the
nealles of that distress. That also is an investigation
fft at all necessary to the argument which I mean to
f,:r in support of the resolution which I have placed
~ore you. But if I did require to know what are the
ailises of that distress, I also would appeal to a witness
sits upon the benches opposite, and who upon this
arVect would, I am sure, be admitted by all to be a wit-
-1-8,4 Of great and unimpeachable authority on this head—
the sing (Mr. Cobden).—(Hear,h b
hear.) That
he"Wedt R id. Gentleman on a recent memorable occasion, when
tee'lnlnunicated to his assembled fellow-countrymen
the political programme of his intended course, spoke of
tile tanners ef England with much er sympathy—(lronical
s)—lamerned their condition, and acknowledged, in

ion nf than mac t

~ ~_. ~~.