The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-26 00:00:00

IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATION ACT.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for
the third reading of this Bill.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said it was with much
regret that he rose to oppose the motion of the Noble Lord.
He had been among those who in the earlier stages of this
Bill had indulged a warm and eager hope that thy on that
(the Opposition) side of the House might ultimately be able
to give their consent to the measure as proposed by the Govern-
ment; and no Member had felt that hope more warmly
than himself, nor was any Member more reluctant to oppose
this measure. 13ut he found himself under the necessity of
meeting the motion of the Noble Lord opposite by as direct
a negative as the forms or the House permitted.—(" Hear,
hear," from the Opposition benches.) He was aware that
in adopting that course he was exposing himself to the impu-
tation, not, perhaps, of any lurking desire to prevent the ad-
justment of those differences upon this subject which had long
divided the parties and distracted the councils of the empire,
but of at least some indifference towards that consummation
which was so warmly desired by Gentlemen on both sides of
the House. But he had been one of those who from the coin-
mencemeut of these discussions had concurred in the views
taken by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tam-
worth. He still concurred in those views, and now that
he found himself called upon to assent to the measure
of the Noble Lord in its present shape, he begged to ex-
plain the reasons why he could not do otherwise than oppose
the third reading of the Bill. His Right Honourable Friend
( Sir Robert Peel) had, in consenting to this Bill, lahl
it down as his first condition, that there should be a 101.
bona fide franchise to be tested by the payment of rates. Except;
by those who advocated Universal Suffrage, the principle, if not
the degree, of such qualification had been uniformly admitted.
It was fur these reasons that his Right Hon. Friend and others
on this (the Opposition) side of the House had thought fit to
adhere steadily to that condition, which was the first stipula
tion of his consent to the evahlishment of a franchise to the
amount of 101. Having entertained these opinions, he now found
on the table the Bil! of the Noble Lord totally free frem
every element and shadow of concession.—(Hear, from the
Opposition.) He, therefore, felt himself compelled to adopt
the only course which, in consistency, it was possible for him to
adopt. He did not sty it was the only one which the forms of
the House would permit him to adopt without absolutely con-
senting to the third reading of the Bill ; nor did he enim to
himself that vindication of a love of conduct which might
appear to some on either side of the House to have less of feel-
ing, as well as appearance of conciliation, than might be grate
fist to their feelings. The forms of the House would permit
him to move some postponement, which would have the teodency
to produce the settlement which most or all of them desired.
His answer to propositions of that nature was, that, under the
present circumstances of the Bill, he believed the prospect
of conciliation would fail, and the attempt at adjustment
would be fruitless.—( Hear. ) Still less would he consent to
such a state of things as relying upon any other body in the
Constitution repairing the errors in the Bill. He thought
it would be more fair to Hon. Gentlemen opposite and
those behind him, to adopt the course he was about to (10,
namely, to move that the Bill should be read a third time at
later period. The proposition of the Noble Lord to take the 51.
franchise instead of 10/. was rot the only thins, they had
to deal with; the Hon. Member for Dublin i; 'she'd the 101.
franchise to exist, but without the test of rating._
( Hear, he tr. ) Now to that he t ssier could consent.

It was stated the other night by the Honourable and Learned
Member for Dublin, that the Factory Act was a dead letter
in Glt;s7ow, but that it worked well in Manchester.
It was well known that it could not remain a dead lett, r,
without the habitual falsifying of certificate; which slot
amounted to perjury ; yet. there was no Hon. Member fcr Scot -
land who get up and said his er.untry hail been ity,ultcd. So
neither did he think that it was any insult to Ireland to say that
the elective franchise could not rc present be :afely conceded
In Scotland they had t iken such a test as was now proposed
till the house-tax was ri pealed. He had stated the difference
that existed between the Noble Lord and his side of the House
as to the franchise; but there wcre other pert ors of the Bill
as it stood, which mettle it impossible for him (Lord F.
Egerton) to do otherwise than take the course he teas
then pursuing. Nt,t one of the stipulations proposed
by his Right Honourable Friend bad found the smal-
. lest corcessiou from the Noble Lord. H's Right
Hon. Friend's stipulations were not confined to the franchise,
although that was the most important of them. They who
who sat on the Opposition side of the House, found them-
selves, after the discussion that had taken .. place on this
Bill, in a much worse situation than they were at first—
( Hear, hear)--4-or there was a period in these discussions
when the Noble Lord was prepared to give the ten pound
franchise tc, in the first instance, seven, and afterwards eleven

of the towns that stood in cbedute A of thti Bill. That
circumstance alone *add thake it extremely difficult
r i-lonourable Gentlemen on his side of the House
to come to the terms 'Which were desired by the Noble
Lord. There was another stipulation made by his Honour-
able Friend which was only secondary in importance to that of
the franchise—he alluded to the compulsory obligation of re-
ceiving the benefit of the Bill by the inhabitants of towns.
A petition had been presented from the city of Belfast, stating
that the desire for change in Municipal institutions was not so
violent as had been imagined. And he ( Lord F. Egerton)
felt a strong objection to the making it compulsory upon the towns
of Ireland to receive the benefits of this Bill. There was a third
point—the power of administering the police being conferred
upon the borough magistrates. Why, in Ireland the Government
had established a Constabulary force, vesting the command in
the Executive ; and in the ca3e of the city of London an
intention had been announced to take from the Magistrates
of the city the management of the metropolitan police.—
( Hear, hear.) Was that to be designate] an 4. insult" in
Ireland, which was considered quite regu!ar in England ?
—( Loud Cheers.) It was stated as a main condition on
which the assent of this (the Opposition) side of the House
should be given, that some settlement should be known
and understood to have taken place on the subject of that
Bill, which so intimately concerned the Irish Church.
—( Hear, hear.) It was not his object to enter fully into
the subject which had already been largely discussed; he would
merely observe that he was content to recapitulate or enumerate
them. [The noise which had prevailed in the House during
the time the Noble Lord, was speaking became here so loud
that the Speaker:vociferated " Order at the bar" at least half a
dozen times Lefore anything like "order" could be obtained
In what he had endeavoured to address to the House he
had avoided as far as possible all topics of irritation
or imputations against Honourable Gentlemen opposite.
He bal stated what he believed to be the facts of the case,
and he hal endeavoured to justify, he hoped effectively, the
grounds he had taken for opposing the third reading of the
Bill. He still retained the wish to give to the people
of Ireland, that which was useful, but he thought the
present Bill was not calculated for any such purpose.
He wished to give to the towns mentioned in the schedule
institutions that would benefit them, but he thought the
provisions of the Bill would not give them such institu-
tions. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the Bill be
read a third time that day three mouths.
Mr. E. TEN NENT rose to second the motion of the
Noble Lord ; but at the same time he must say that he
deeply regretted that it had been found impossible to
come to an amicable and a final settlement on this question.
The delay which had already taken place, had shown the
truth of what had frequently been stated from that side of

the House, viz, that the people of Ireland were utterly
indifferent on the Municipal question.—( Hear, hear.)
So far as the 101. franchise was concerned, which had been
proposed for the large towns, he regarded it with little alarm.
'He believed that all the Municipal Corporations, after they
were once established, would be found to be less democratic
than their present advocates. But if he looked at this Bill

-
apart from all political considerations or religious apprehension,
he found there was sufficient in the Bill to induce him to vote

against its third reading. The present Bill was by far the most
objectionable that had hitherto been placed on the table of the
House. Independently of its embodying every principle that
had been objected to in former years, it contained no one
of the suggestions thrown out by his Right lion. Friend. It
embodied a franchise that had been cut down to a 51. qualifi-
cation, and under these circumstances, it was impossible that
Gentlemen on his side of the House could support the measure.
He ( Mr. E. Teunent) had hoped that a Municipal Bill for
Ireland for purely municipal purposes would have passed. Ile
still hoped that it might pass. He strongly objected to making
it compulsory upon the towns in Ireland to come under the
operation of this Bill. In Belfast there would be three or
four different ratings, and these much heavier than before.
The observations which he was now making were not induced
by any factious motives. No one felt a greater desire to pass
a beneficial measure, but it was impossible for him to assent
to such a Bill as this, which would be productive of the
greatest misfortunes to the country. He concluded by second-
ing the motion.
Mr. BARING WA LL said in the course he was about to
take he had nothing to explain. He had attended no meet-
ings, and never expressed himself otherwise than he did now
—that he was in favour of an extensive measure of Municipal
Reform, and that he thought it had been too long delayed.—
( Hear, hear.) He did not come down to this House to drive
a hard bargain.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)
He did not wish to try how little he could give, but how
much—(Hear)—and he thought the people of Ireland as
much entitled to a full measure of justice as the people
of any other portion of the empire.—(Loud cheers.)
Five pound, eight pound, or ten, had no magic for him ;
all he wanted was inquiry, and in the absence of that, he felt
bound to give the benefit of the doubts he entertained to
the more liberal measure.—( Cheers.) He trusted the
Noble Lord opposite would give his sanction to no measure
that would not give perfect justice to Ireland, ithich he
felt convinced one day or other she would possess.
—(Loud cheers.) He thought the more manly course
would be to take the 51. franchise, and he could not
but regret that some compromise had not come
from his side of the House. He thought the offer of the
Noble Lord ought to have been met in the same spirit
in which it was given, and on that ground he would vote with
the Queen's Government.—(Great cheering.)
Mr. GRATT AN congratulated the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down as being at least one honest man out of the
many opposite.—(Loud laughter.) He contended that the
peace of Ireland depended upon governing that country with
justice, and he looked upon this measure as necessary to the
completion of that justice.
Lord ELIOT said that Government themselves did not
appear to be in favour of a .51. franchise, and therefore he had
hoped that some modification would have been made so as to
have a bone fide 101. qualification. As, however, the Govern-
ment did not take any step towards an arrangement, he felt
himself now compelled to vote against the third reading of
the Bill.
Lord MO R PET H bad hoped that the language held on a
former night by the Noble Lord who had just spoken was an
indication of a conciliatory 3pirit on the other side of the
Lord,Hous
trheastp
the optrioongroefsst,heenNtiorbellye
eetinßgiltibbise cisut oepsptioodn butitsfttmhteh further
did away with that hope. The amendment went to declare
that Irishmen were unfit to enjoy the same privileges with
Englishmen and Scotchmen. He hoped that the sound.
judging people of the three countries would
.all, ere long,
unite in cordial concurrence of the Bill proposed by Go.
vernment.

Sir R. PEEL said—Sir, it is my most anxious wish to
avoid every thing likely to cause irritation.—( Hear, hear.)
I am happy to find in connection with the subject of disagree-
ment that I have this admission from the Noble Lord op•
posite, that I have had the good fortune to have introduced
proposals for its adjustment, all of which were deemed Ca_
tisbctory, with but a single exception—that for the deter_
urination of the value of the franchise.— (Hear, hear.) It
is with pain I find myself placed in such a situltion that I
have no alternative but to vote against the third reading of
this Bill. In framing it the Government have not retained
one of the terms to which I gave my consent in the proposi_
tions alluded to.—( Hear, hear.) In this state of things the
question occurred, what became me to do as most consistent as
well as most respectful to this House? Looking at this Bill as
it now stand, with its chief objections in principle retained, I
feel that to treat the House as it deserves I must vote against

it altogether.—( Hear, hear, hear.) V I might have opposed it
on other grounds. I might have said, wait till we know what
course will be adopted with the Irish Tithe Bill.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord himself set the example, in the first place, by
adjourning the regular course of one Bill to afford time to.
prepare for onother—( Hear, hear, hear)—yet now he pro-
.poses to read this Bill a third time before he goes into Corn.
mittee on the other one. I might propose an adjournment for
a fortnight, till we saw the provisions of the other Bill; but
such a course might appear as if I could be satisfied with any
provisions that by way of counteraction could be introduced
into that. No, Sir, I will not have it supposed that any mo-
difications in detail in either Bill could reconcile me to the
principle or abate my deep-laid objections. Well, I now
come to another part of my vindication. It was said, " Why
do you not attend to amend this Bill in Committee ?" I will
tell the House. I found the present Bill filled with a hope-
less irregularity of detail. I found a variety of principles as-
sumed that I could not reconcile either to rby own views or
to each other. I found that it contained a 71. franchise for
ten towns and a 51. franchise for the remainder, while in
looking to the arrangements in England and Scotland I
found that all, in the matter of rating, was uniformity
and consistency. Though my plan was rejected, my mode
of estimating the rate was the only point wally found fault
with, and there the alteration (50 per cent. in the value pro-
posed) was so scions that I had no hope of effecting any
available or useful modification. I repeated, however, my
original proposition. The House again expressed its pre-
ference for the 5/. franchise. Thenceforward 1 felt no desire to
wouldpropose
av have
alterations
satisfied i n
orth the
reconciled dtai l forme, and
I confess no alterations
you would not
to attempt
principle Hear, hear.) The
havexobl
e thought
T]ordteitl
sfayiroui n m
that e
as the of rating in the bo-
roughs he will adhere to the 9th of George
IV. —(No, noel
Li Ireland it is well known that there is a graduated scale of
asses merit for the purposes of paving, lighting,
, on houses
ad* the value of 51., of 101., of 20!., Sze. ; but in forming muni-
e7pal insti utions for Ireland a general and
--liseo ;.stent, and uni-
form scheme should be adopted. I shall riot, however, be
tempted to criticise the details of the Bill now, as it might
prejudice the consideration of future amendments, for when
arrangements are once rejected insuperable barriers are
often created, and, therefore I feel that all untimely dig-
, usiiona on these topics arc better avoided.—( Hear, hear.)
I wish before thin question is finally disposal of, to vindicate
the course I have pursued in tre.4pect to the question of the
franchise. I find that in the case of the reforrred
Parliamentary franchise in England to make out the
value entitling the individual freeholder to vote von take
the amount of the clear,}qrly value of his holding over and
above the rent and charges. The words are that the
house or tenement which will entitle a person to exercise the
franchise should be worth 101. to let to a solvent tenant, who
shall pay all taxes, rent:, and charges. There is also the pro.
vision as to time of residence. 1 found that in arranging the
Parliamentary franchise for Ireland you had done the same
using to the.followinif effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman
that read a document bearing on this sub;eet. I maintain
that the la franchise means that the tenant should pay 10/.
rent, and all the rates and charges besides, which an occupy-
ing tenant should pay. Those who think the 10/. franchise
too high will not of course agree to my proposal, but those
who say that it is a sufficient and necessary one must now
agree with me —([fear, hear, hear.) If the test raises
the house above the value, of 10/ a-year, then I say it is
a bad one for the purpose.—(Hear, hear.) If you mean, to