The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

point; and it only showed what clear views he could
express when necessary for his own purpose. lie was
not aware whether the subject was before the House or
not, but he believed it had attracted a considerable
amount of attention elsewhere. It was reported, whe-
ther truly or not, he was not aware, that the door of
the Cabinet was lately a little ajar, and that hearing a
knock, the Premier had asked, in the words of the
nigger melody, " Who's that knocking at the door?"
and in reply, the head and shoulders of the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon had made
their appearance. But whether it was that the Right
Honourable Baronet did not like the company he found
himself in, or to what other cause it was owing
he could not tell, but he drew back saying, " I beg
your pardon, I will call another 'day." He did not pre-
tend to speak with certainty upon the subject, but he
believed the Right Hon. Baronet had been influenced in
no slight degree by the understood opinions of the
Cabinet on this question of a rate in aid. There were
many general reasons why a rate in aid would in prin-
ciple always act viciously, and in the present state of
Ireland such a rate would be peculiarly objectionable.
If they taxed the wealthy and thriving people of Belfast,
for instance, for the support of the poor in the southern
and Western part of the country, they would be entitled
at once to say you have given up the principle of local
taxation—we are part of a great united empire, and we
claim that this shall be made an imperial question, and
receive imperial assistance. With respect to the other
views of the Hon. Member for Stroud, they involved, in
fact, the principles of M. Proudhon, and he was aston-
ished they should have been addressed to a British
assembly. First of all he proposed to drag the land-
lords of Ireland to the ground by a weight of taxation
they were not able to bear, and then, having beggared
them, he said the land would then be liberated, and
fall into the hands of other proprietors, who would be
able to give employment to the people, and cultivation
thus restored. He would have asked the Hon. Member,
if he had not retired from the House, how the land
would be benefited by this process, or the ruin of the
present landlords. The destitution which weighed them
down would still exist, and press equally upon new pro-
prietors. He could not see how they were to be bene-
fited by succeeding to an inheritance of burdens which
had ruined their predecessors. In the next place the
Hon. Member brought forward that favourite word 'with
Irish politicians, " the public interest." This was again
merely a repetition of the views of M. Proudhon—it was
merely saying, le propriete est un vol. It meant to destroy
the rights of private property after the manner of the
Louis Blanc school; but it the Hon. Member would refer
to the example of Williams-town, he would see that the
plan he proposed had been tried upon a limited scale,
and had been attended with the failure which was the in-
evitable fate of all such wild and mischievous schemes.
Passing however from the theories of the Hon. Member
for Stroud, he would state that his great and leading
objection to the proposed grant was that it did not
embody the principle included in the resolution which
the Gallant Major behind him intended to propose last
night, and which was well worthy the attention of the
House. That resolution affirmed that remunerative
employment was necessary, but the present grant con-
tained nothing that would act in that direction, or do
otherwise than widen the circle of the evils now existing
in Ireland. He was well aware of the difficulty of her
Majesty's Government in dealing with this question.
Common humanity induced not only them, but many of
his own friends to shrink from refusing a grant to alle-
viate the destitution now existing, but seeing that the
grant of 50,0001. was so totally inadequate to the ob-
ject in view, he thought he should but be discharging
his duty by forcing her Majesty's Ministers to the con-
sideration of more effective remedies. He was of opi-
nion that such remedies could be found; and though he
had no wish to detain the House, yet he trusted they
would bear with him while he briefly stated his views
on the subject—views which were the result of much
consideration and some experience. (Hear, hear.)
Now he asked, whether the question of emigration
had attracted attention in that House? He could
tell them that, out of doors, it had attracted much, and
would attract more; and, limited as the grant of 50,0002
was, if it had been intended to relieve these unions by
applying it to promote emigration, he should have voted
for it with some hope of its doing good. It was said by
the Hon. Member for Stroud, and other English Mem-
bers, that Ireland was capable of supporting more than
double its present population. But those who made that
statement totally overlooked the actual state of the
country. If they had the manufactures of Glasgow or
the rich vales of the Lothians to fall back upon, it might
be true; but when Hon. Members talked of Ireland sup-
porting a larger population, they forgot that this must
be preceded by ameliorative measures, and that it would
take a hundred years at least to arrive at
the results they looked forward to. He believed
that emigration would be beneficial if it was
carried to a much more limited extent than
was generally spoken of, if in connexion with it they
applied topical remedies to merely topical evils. He
was aware how unpleasant it was to the House to have
private matters brought before its notice, but he hoped
that he should be excused in stating the results of his
own experience, his only motive being to show what
could be practically effected, and the means of doing so.
He was the owner of a considerable property, which
came into his possession when he came of age, and was
at that time principally in the hands of middlemen; a
great portion of it was in the union of Listowel, which,
though not in so wretched a state as some of the unions
that had been mentioned, was also in a very distressed
condition. He was happy to say that there were not five
persons residing on his property who were receiving pa-
rochial relief, and yet the House would wonder that he
had bees compelled to pay rates of 9s. 6d. in the pound
to the support of the poor in other parts of the union. It
was to him a serious fact, and he did not deny that he had
a deep interest in the question of rates which thus swept
away his property. From the time that he had come into
the possession he had devoted himself to its improve-
ment, and also of the condition of those who resided
upon it, and he could assure Hon. Members that it was
a difficult and a tedious task the proprietor who entered
upon it had—to encourage and aid the good and willing
tenants—to stir up the apathetic, and, in extreme cases,
to get rid of bad ones—however unpopular it might
make him. It was indeed only by constant and patient
perseverance that a poor could be converted into a pros-
perous and improving tenantry. He had always endea-
voured to prevent the sub-division of property. He had
turned his attention to emigration as a remedy, and he
had at length induced a great number of people, between
one and two hundred, to emigrate to Canada, in 1847
and 1848. This, too, was at the time that the Colonial-
office was endeavouring to prevent emigration to the
colonies, and when they were told that the Cana-
dians were setting their faces against any
further influx of Irish paupers. Notwithstanding
the difficulties and discouragements thrown in
the way of emigration at that time by the Government,
he was happy to say that every one of those who
had emigrated, so far as he had been able to trace their
fate, had been successful. The Hon. Member then read
several letters from emigrants, for the purpose of show-
' big the prosperity which had attended their removal to
Canada. The subject of , emigration was very often
talked of as an abstract question, and it was therefore
that he had taken the liberty of reading the documents
to the House, as he thought they ought to carry a con-
siderable weight with them, although they had not the
official character of a blue book. He was of opinion that
they should trace many of the evils complained of to the
effects of the law that gave relief to the able-bodied. Of
the three Commissioners under the Act, two of them
were connected with the Government of the day ; had
the power of taxing and of sweeping away all the pro-
perty of Ireland. The people of England ought to know
that this was not a mere landlord question, though it
was frequently represented that it was. He declared that
it was not a landlord question, but involved the happi-
ness of the entire community. They could not, if they
wished it, ruined the landlord without ruining the tenant
also. He was of opinion that the attention of the Com-
mittee upon emigration should be called to the evils
which were inflicted upon the country by the operation
of the poor-law. He had heard it said that things
would right themselves, and that although in the mean-
time there might be great suffering in Ireland, the coun-
try would ultimately attain to a sound and healthy state.
But he denied that any such opinions were well founded,
and that unless they altered the poor-law, the condition
of Ireland would be improved.
Lord DRUMLANRIG said he could not vote for the
measure of Government. Of all the speeches that had
been addressed to the House, he had listened with most
attention to the one that had been delivered by the Hon.
Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham), and in that
speech his Right Hon. Friend had said that the time
was come when Government must review the entire taxa-
tion of Ireland. He thought that in the present emer-
gency of Ireland, Government ought to have been pre-
pared to have brought forward a measure of a compre-
hensive character. So impressed was he with the inten-
sity of the distress that prevailed in Ireland, that unless
something were now done for that country, he believed
it was never likely to recover from its present prostrate
and miserable condition. After what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Ripon (Sir James Graham) he (Lord
Drumlanrigyoould not understand how that Right Hon. 11
Gentleman could vote . for the grant, although he had
said he could not give his assent to the continuance of
such demands. Now it was evident that unless this coun-
try had some security that this system of grants would
not be continued for Ireland, it would only become
the House steadily and firmly to give their refusal.
in uttering what he had said, he wished it to be under-
stood that he was actuated by no feeling of bitterness
towards Ireland—(Hear)—for he oelieved that no coun-
try had been so tried with such severe distress. He
must, however, say that men had been sent into that
House to represent Ireland, who had pursued a system
of bullying and swaggering and endeavouring by every
means to excite that most exciteable of people, the pea-
santry of Ireland; men who had never suggested during
a long series of years any measure of a practical cha-
racter for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But what could they
expect when an Hon. Member could come down to that
House and make such ridiculous motions as moving for
returns of killed and wounded at the battle of Bailin-
garry, during the late outbreak—(Hear, hear, from Mr.
H. Grattan)— and also moving for a call of the House
when he must have known that at the present season of
the year it was next to impossible that such a motion
could be of any effect. The same Hon. Member had
also made a speech of a laughable, if not ridiculous cha-
racter, at a time, too, that Ireland was in such a miser-
able condition. He had been compelled to listen to that
speech, which be did with no pleasant feelings, remind-
ing him as it did that " Nero fiddled while Rome was
burning." The Noble Lord concluded by repeating that
his hostility to the grant was not dictated by any hostile
feelings towards Ireland.
Mr. M'GREGOR said that, having voted with the
Government for the proposed grant, he wished to be
permitted to explain why he had done so. He had found
a great difficulty in coming to the conclusion to vote in
its favour,' especially when he recollected that Ireland
paid no window tax and no assessed taxes, and also that
she was free from the operation of many of the Excise
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