The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-16 00:00:00

NEWSPAPER STAMPS.

Mr. WAK LE Y said, before the House went into a Commit-
tee of Supply, he begged to present some petitions praying for
the total repeal of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers.
The HON. MEMBER then brought a large bundle of petitions to
the table, and was followed by Mr. Roebuck with another im-
mense bundle of petitions from Norwich, Bath, and several
other places, the names of which we could not catch, to the
same effect. The House became instantly a scene of the
greatest animation, Hon. Members standing up in every direc-
tion, and claiming to be heard, amidst laughter and cheering
on both sifles. _ _

Dr. BOWRING presented petitions from South Shields,
Dover, and Portpatrick.
Mr. GROTE presented a petition from the Cityof London,
agreed to at one of the largest meetings he had ever seen
assembled in the Guildhall ; one from 200 shipwrights con-
nected with the River Thames; and one from 300 inhabitants
of Drogheda.

Sir EDWARD CODRINGTON prese ited several pe-
t itions to the like effect.

Mr. BAINES presented a petition from Leeds, sgned by
20,000 persons for the entire abolition of the Newspaper Stamps.
Similar petitions were presented by Mr. Phillips from Man-
chester, and other places by Mr. Charles Wood, and by Mr.
Barnard, from the Southwark Radical Association.—( Much
laughter.) If there were not such an immense number of pe-
titions to be presented he would request that the petition
should be read at full length.— (Liughter, and cries of
"Oh, oh.")
Mr HOWARD presented a petition from Carlisle to the
same effect ; also another, from the parish of Staines, with a
similar prayer.
Colonel THOMPSON presented a petition from Hull,
numerously signed, to the same effect.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented three petitions from different
places to the same effect.
Mr. WALLACE presented five petitions, the first from
the Hon. Member's constituents in Glasgow—the others from
different places in Scotland, all praying for the total repeal of
the duty on Newspapers, in which he heartily concurred.
Mr. E WART presented a similar petition from Liverpool.
Mr. HARVEY said he had a petition to present on the
same subject, but could not consign it to that ignominious
bourne from which no petition returns, without adverting to
a rumour which had reached him that all these petitions,
which were for a " total repeal" of the Stamp Duty, were to
be thrown away. He had been told, for he had not attended
the Downing-street Parliament, that the Government had re-
solved upon disregarding tlcese petitions by reducing, and not
abolishing, the Stamp Duties. Such a conclusion he appre-
hended could only have been arrived at in the absence of all
knowledge of public opinion upon this subject, and he, there-
fore, trusted that after such a manifestation as bad just been
made, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be prepared to
defer the consideration of this subject, until he could bestow
upon these petitions the attention to which they were entitled.
Mr. WAKLE Y said that in moving that the House do re-
solve itself into a Committee on the Stamp Bill, he should
take the opportunity of expressing his perfoct concurrence in
what had fallen from his Hon. Friend, and his hope that the
Chancollor of the Exchequer would, upon a little delibera-
tion, t e induced to do justice to the public, and consent, not
to take off a portion, but to abolish the entire of the stamp
duty. Should the Right Hon. Gentleman, however, not do
so, ho should feel it his duty to press the House to a division.
Afcer a few words from Mr. GOCLBURN and Mr. T. DUN-
COMM,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested
that it might be the most convenient course if the lion.
Member for Finsbury would consent to allow him (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) to state what were the intentions of
the Government, and then take the discussion on his own
motion when the subject of the Stamp Duty on Newspapers
was regularly brought forward in the financial statement of the
year. This he thought would be a much more convenient
course than that proposed by the Hon. Member.
Mr. WAKLE Y having consented to adopt this course, and
the House having resolved itself into a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
with the permission of the House he should now proceed to
state what was the course which his Majesty's Government
intended to propose for the adoption of the House, and he
wished the Committee to understand that the proposition he
was about to bring forward, although referring principally to
the Stamp-dj.ity, was by no. means specially pointed at that one
subject. The proposition he was about to submit to the con-
sideration of the House was one of a much more enlarged
kind ; and without at all wishing to undervalue the impor-
tance of the question of the Stamp-duty upon Newspapers, he
night be permitted to observe, that his proprosition was one
which would deserve the attention of the House if there were
no Stamp-duty- whatever upon Newspapers. During the pe-
riod which has elapsed since the close of the war, there were
very few prcceedings of that House more satisfactory, or, he
might add, more beneficial, than those consolidations of the
laws which had taken place at different times, under various
. .

Governments.—(Hear, hear.) If there were any one duty
which more than another was incumbent on a Government—
if there were any one duty which in times of peace and tran-
quillity it behoved them to perform—it was to make the laws
clear and intelligible, especially when they involved questions
of interference with trade, restrictions upon property, and pe-
nalties for the commission' or omission of certain acts. There
had been of late a consolidation effected in our criminal laws,
commenced under the auspices of the Right Hon. Baronet
whom he did not see to his place (Sir Robert Peel), and to
a certain extent a consolidation of the revenue laws ; and he
had no doubt,' when, he stated to the Committee the state in
which the Stamp-laws at present were, they would agree,
with hint that it was most desirable there should be also a
consolidation of these. At present the laws relating to
stamps were distributed over 150 statutes--some relating to
Ireland, some to England, and some to Scotland—without
order or method, exhibiting a farrago of legislation, in which
the most subtle lawyer frequently found himself entangled,
and by which the unfortunate victim found himself subjected
to penalties.—( Hear, hear.) These statutes originated in the
reign of Charles IL, and from that time to the present, the
system of legislating with respect to these Acts had greatly
added to the confusion 'to which he had adverted. A party
wishing to refer to them was obliged to refer, not through the
title " Stamp," but through some other titles, or through
some other class of Acts not having the slightest connection
with that upon which he was seeking information. He should
refer to the 10th of Anne, one of the earliest of these Acts, as
being strongly characteristic of the style of legislation of that
day. That Act referred to the duty on tea, coffee, on cocoa,
and rice, and it also referred to Mary Beecham—(Laughter and
hear, hear). Now, what connection had this with the sub-
ject of the statute ?—( Hear, hear.) Now it was his intention
9f those 150 statutes,- one statute should to propose that instead
contain the entire of the Stamp-laws of the country, with two
slight exceptions, the Acts which referred to stage-coaches
sad the licenses of hawkers. These two Acts had been al-
ready to a certain extent consolidated. But with respect to
all the others, he should move their total repeal.—( Hear. )
The single statute he should propose as a substitute would
be, he was sorry to say, extremely lengthy, extending
to no less than three hundred and thirty sections. He should,
however, propose them one in connection with another, admit-
ting no irrelevant matter into the Act, and would compress
into this one statute the entire body of the laws relating to
Stamps.—( Hear.) One reason why he did not interfere with
the law relating to stage-coaches was, that he had been re-
quested not to do so by a very respectable class of persons—
the innkeepers who were engaged in this trade. He trusted,
however, that lie should be enatled to put an end to the system
of farming post-horses, which was a relic of antiquated barba-
rism. His object at present, however, was to render the pre-s

sent cede of laws which related to „Stamps len complicated
than they were at present, , The taskof doing this was cer-
tainly_ one of no littre difficulty, of which Hon. Members
minht form 'tbtne estimate, when they recollected the multi-
foiol.lS topics embraced in these laws—stamps upon attereeyl'
accounts, laws relating to coals, tp gold en',.. 7iliver, insurances,
protests, receipts, newst-npeTh, and a variety of others. To deal
with such a re.blz6.'et was a task of very great difficulty for any
Minista—(Hear)—and in asking lion. Members to consent to
his proposition, be was not asking thenvto abandon any theory
of their own, but simply to aid him ht rartying fin the Wettt of
consolidation, upon the advantage of which be pi.esilined there
cauld be no difference of opinion: Honotirable Members
might be disposed to advocate the entire aliolitiod of the
Stamp Duty; but that, he trusted, would be no ground for
their opposing the consolidation of the Stamp laws. It was
perfectly evident, that in the introduction of an Act o? Par-
liament, containing 330 section., eed embracing such a vast
variety of subjects as these he had referred to, if the House
7.as called upon to discuss the policy of each separate sub-
ject, and the propriety of making specific alterations in them,
the work of consolidation could not possibly go on, and no
Minister would venture to take a step which would involve him
in such difficulties —( Hear, hear.) He trusted he was not
unreasonable in expecting. that the same degree of indulgence
and assistance would be given to him in enleavouring to effect
so important an improvement as the consolidation of the stamp
laws, as was given to others whilst effecting similar improve-
ments in other branches of the law. He did not mean to say
that any Hon. Member who would support him in this pro-
position would be, by so doing, abandonipg his opinion re-
specting the propriety of greatly reducing or altogether abo-
lishing the Stamp Duties. They were different subjects—one
of which might be supported, whilst the other was opposed
by the same lion. Member. The objection, for instance, to
the advantage which landed- property possessed over personal
property,. by the present state of the Stamp Laws, was a Very
legitimate subject for discussion at a future pet iod ; but it was
not during the progress of a measure, the sole object of which
was the consolidation of a branch of our law, that such a sub-
ject could be advantageously considered.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
It was not necessary in passing a Bill for the consolidation of
the Acts that they should take every part into consideration,
with a view to alteration or repeal. The Stamp Duty on news-
papers stood, however, on a different round from the other
duies, because the lion. Member for Finsbury bad given no-
tice of a motion on the subject ; but lie had permitted him to
make his statement to the House. The Hon. Member had
apparently abandoned his own motion for a time, and had given
way to him, so a% to enable him to lay on the table the new
schedule. He felt much obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for
pursuing the course which he had ; and he (the Chancellor of
...

the Exchequer) promised him that on a future occasion, when
the question could be better and more conveniently discussed,
that he should not be disposed to avoid it. He could not ap-
proach the discussion of the subject, without recollecting the
discussion which took place on a former occasion in that
House ; and it was necessary for him to refer to it, because
it might appear that he was acting inconsistently with the opi-
ons which he had laid down on that occasion. He alluded
to what he had said' in reply to the late Mr. Cobbett, when
that gentleman brought the subject forward. Some few ses-
sions back that gentleman brought forward the subject of
the Stamp Duties, in a speech of great ingenuity, which, in-
deed, he always possessed and manifested, but, at the same
time, with great powers of exaggeration, in which he was
very often in the habit of indulging. Honourable Gentlemen
would recollect that, on that occasion, so far from approving of
the state of the law, that he then pledged himself, on the part
of his Noble Friend (Lord Spencer), who was at the time
Chancellor of the Exchequer , that a Bill should be prepared
and brought in, to get rid of the evils complained of. This
would have been done long since, but for the pressure of pub-
lic business ; but he was now prepared to redeem the pledge
he had formerly made. He was not prepared to bring for-
ward a measure to meet those exaggerated cases which haul
been stated by the late member for Oldham, but to take those
cases of real grievance which manifestly existed, and apply
what he trusted would prove to be an adequate remedy. It
would be proper for him, in the statement which he was
about to make, not to take an exaggerated view of the evils
which arose from the inequality of the present system of Stamp
Duties. His intention was to form his estimate on the mean
amount of duty, and the mean amount of the sum on which
it was charged. On the occasion to which he had alluded,
there had been a difference on this point between the Hon.
Member for Oldham and himself, and he certainly should
avoid falling into an error of which he had complained.
If the House saw that in the present state of things, as
regarded the► Stamp Duties, there was a great and crying
injustice, he trusted that Hon. Members would go with
him to provide an adequate remedy.—( Hear, hear.) Hon.
Gentlemen were aware that under the present system a
certain sum was paid as a Stamp Duty on bonds and mort-
gages according to a certain scale. For instance, there
was a certain charge made as from 30/. to 1001., and again
from 5001. to 1,0001., as described in the scale. But it ap-
peared from this scale of duty—taking the mean payments—
that it worked out an injustice. Looking at the scale, it would
appear that a larger proportionate amount of duty was paid on
a smaller amount of property ; or that a smaller proportionate
duty was paid on the larger amount. That was, that there was
a larger proportionate charge on a smaller than on a larger
property. In fact, then—but not to the extent stated by the
Hon. Member for Oldham—the heavier tax fell on the smaller
i• holder of property, and consequently less on the larger pos-
sessor. For instance, he would take the taxes on conveyancing,
and he found that the duty paid on property of less value than
201. was 5/. per cent., and between► 20/. and 501. the duty was
reduced to 21. 17s. Id. per cent. ; but when they rose in the
scale, they were still more struck with the inequality of charge,
for on sums between 4,0001. and 5,0001. the charge was only
ss. per cent.—(Hear, hear.) The duty in the decreasing
scale went much farther, and in addition to this, the same duty
was charged on all property between 60,0001. and 80,000/. ;
consequently, there was no charge on the sum between
60,000/. and 79,999/. He would proceed to bonds : the duty
paid on bonds of 2501. was 41. per cent. ; on those above
5,0001. the duty was reduced to ss. 4d. per cent. ; and in bonds
above 12,500/., it was reduced to 2s. 4d. per cent. The scale
stopped at 20,000/. ; therefore the bond for 40,0001. was sub-

ject to the same duty as that of 20,000/.—(Hear, hear.) The
state of law on this point was inconsistent With justice, and
he was sure that the House would not -allow it to continue as
it was, unless it was found that no remedy could be applied.
From the statement he had made, it would appear that the
duty on a bond for 40,0001. would be about ls. 3d. per cent.,
on a bond for 4,0001., it amounted to 41. per cent. on one of
1,0001. it was increased to 20s. per cent., and on one of 100/.
it would be 30s. per cent.---( Hear, hear.) He need hardly
go through a lengthened detairon this subject, because Hon."
Gentlemen would see at once, from what he had stated, that
the facts of the case were perfectly consistent with the argu-
ments he held. He would now give an example of what he
proposed as a remedy for the evils of this system. He would
take conveyancing :--On smaller sums the duty was 5/. per
cent., and sums between 1,0001. and 2,000/. were subject to
the charge of only 16s. per cent. He proposed, then, to take
the general average, and make one uniform charge. As for
taking a fluctuating scale, he thought it would be extremely
doubtful whether they could frame one that would not be
liable to objections. lie should propose, therefore, that they
should take a uniform scale of one per cent. on all deeds of
this description. He did not think that this change would
produce an addition to the amount of taxation.- The amount
would be, as nearly as possible, the same ; but relief
would be afforded as regarded the smaller conveyances,
and, therefore, probably, to the holders of smaller property.
The approach to the principle adopted in this instance
would run through much of the Bill which he should have to
introduce on this subject, By pursuing, then, this course,
they would avoid difficulties which would often arise, for there
would be no conflicting opinions as to charge, but there would
be a simpler formula at the head of each subject in the sche •
dule. This principle would also apply to probates of wills,
and he would now shortly call the attention of the House to
the great alterations he proposed in this branch of the subject.
By the law as it stood in cases of property going by descent,
the duty was calculated on the gross value of the property.
This state of things often led to the infliction of great hardship
and to very considerable inconvenience, because as the law
stood the duty was charged to the gross amount of property.
The person administering to the will was entitled to claim
from the Government a proportionate deduction for the debts
of the deeedsed which he paid, and this was to be taken out
of the sum previously paid as probate duty. This was a com-
plicated system, and was not just on the part of the State un-
less it was absolutely necessary for the collection of the re-
venue. He did not think this was the case ; for instance, if
an estate was insolvent the administrator was called upon to
advance the whole of the probate duty as if the estate was
perfectly clear ; now he thought this system could be altered
without affecting the revenue. He happened to know that
there were cases of individuals who rather than go through
the forms and regulations necessary at the Stamp Office did
not come forward to administer, and abandoned their claims,
and the revenue received what it was not entitled to. After
having consulted a number of individuals, who were well
acquainted with this system, he was prepared to say that lie
had been enabled to frame an enactment by which indivi-
duals would not be compelled to pay what the State was not
entitled to receive, and at the same time they would be
able to protect the public revenue from loss and to give im-
mediate relief. In the discussion which had formerly taken
place, there was no subject more than this that had made
an impression upon him. His Right Honourable Friend the
Member for the University of Cambridge, well knew
that there was no subject connected with the Stamp Office
respecting which so nrany complaints and applications were
made to the Treasury as this. When, then, he knew that the
result of the present system was to bring into the Exchequer
more or less in proportion than the State was entitled to re-
ceive, he was bound to make an alteration of the law if he
could safely do so.—( Hear, bear, hear.) He trusted that the
arrangements which were intended would satisfactorily attain
the object in view.---( Hear, hear.) He next came to a very
important branch of the Stamp Duties—be meant the duties on
bill stamps. The duty on bills as it at present existed, was
divided into two classes ; namely, what were, called long bills
and short bills. With respect to long bills he intended to
propose no change whatever. He believed that the propor-
tionate charge on bills for small sums, as compared with those
for larger sums, was unjust and unequal. He did not wish to
give undue encouragement to bills forsmall sums ; but he could
not help feeling that they departed from a sound and admira-
ble rule of fiscal regulation, in making a larger proportionate
charge on bills for small than large amount. He therefore
felt it to be his duty to endeavour to adjust this, and
apply as well as he could, what he considered to be a
good principle. Within late years a practice had grown
up, which was somewhat an invasion of the duty on bills.
He alluded to what was called letters of credit, which
passed from hand to hand, and sometimes even passing
by endorsement ; but this was not generally done, as persons
were more cautious in doing that which was unquestionably

an evasion of the law. • He believed, hoWeVer, that this •
practic6' of sending letters of credit , was:. entirely
to the present high arnoun of ddty: The oOtilitilttee Would
pueekve that th'e'se.leli:thq-i bi Credit were never used for tl:e
plirposes-for which bills of long date were. generally applica-
ble. They were never applied for the purpose of obtaming
a postponement of the period of payment, which was chiefly
the use of bills of long date. To put a stop to this system,
he intended to introduce a tipvi 80,10 iti thibli hts ffoptistd
thnt OfaViit fOr iiut more than seven days' date Should ba
!-ri-clUded. These bills would be chiefly drawn for the pur-
pose of remittance, and he intended that on this new class of
bills the duty should be very light, indeed, scarcely more
than nominal.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that there could
be no doubt that persons who were parties to these letters of
credit were liable to punishment for the evasion of the Stamp
Duty ; and he had no doubt that what he now proposed
would prove an adequate remedy to the present system; and
while it put a atop to these letters of credit on the one hand,
it would afford accommodation to the. parties who at pre-
sent largely used them. lie had communicated with many
parties on this point, and he believed that instead of what
he suggested being regarded as a hardship, that it would
be considered a benefit. There were several other altera-
tions which be intended to propose, but which it would
not be necessary for him now to dwell upon at length.

For instance, he-intended to propose an alter-ation on a point
respecting which they had much been called upon by various
classes of the community ; he alluded to the Stamp Duty now
levied on apprentices' indentures—(hear, hear)—and he
thoight that a reduction in this tax ,would be IKieficial.—
(Hear, hear.) At the present moment, when there was 110
premium, or when there was one of less than 10/., the duty
charged on the indenture was 20s. He did not feel himself
called upon to enter upon a discussion of the law of appren-
ticeship, or on the expediency of the present system; but felt
that as long as it was on the statute-book, they should afford
facilities to persons to make engagements of the kind. He
propbsed, therefore, that in all cases where the• premium was
less than 201., the duty payable should be 55., and that in all
other cases the Stamp Duty shoal be 20s. He intended to
propose a reduction of the S;amp Duty on bills of lading
from 6s. to 35., and the Stamp Duty on charter-parties from
365. to ss. With respect to leases, he also intended to pro-
pose a very great alteration, one which he hoped and believed
would be found to be very beneficial in many districts. In
many parts of England there were very few or no leases, but
in other parts the principle of granting leases was largely acted
upon. In the western and. northern parts of England this
was the case to a very great extent. The present rate of
Stamp Duty, however, on leases, operated in many places
almost to the extent of discontinuing them. When, therefore,
the rent was 201. and under, he proposed that the duty
should be. reduced to 2s. 6d , when the rent was 2001., lie
proposed that the duty should be 31. He also proposed to
repeal the exemption which at present existed of the Stamp
Duty on leases of three lives,- or on ecclesiastical leases, and
to place them under the general state of the law, and under
the same principles that applied to other leases. He also pro-
posed that administration bonds, which were now subject to a
Stamp Duty of 205., should only be liable to a 55.• Stamp
Duty. He did not think that the revenue would lose anything
by any of these alterations. He believed that the large amount
of Stamp Duty charged at present, instead of bringing any-
thing to the revenue, had directly the contrary result. When
he found that the taxes were so high that persons rather than
pay them proceeded in a course which might affect their rights,
he felt that it was not consistent with sound fiscal regulation
to continue them in their present high state. When he said
this also, he was impressed with the feeling that the reduction
of the Stamp Duty would not be attended with a loss of re-
venue. He also intended to recommend that there should be
some reductions in the discounts now allowed, which would
occasion a saving. The discount which was allowed on the
stamp on administration, which very rarely went into the pocket
of the public, but which generally fell to professional men,
was very great. He intended to propose that the allowance
of this should be put a stop to. By this, he believed, that a
saving would be effected to the amount of between 10,000/.
and 20,0001. He intended also to follow up a principle which
had been acted upon by his Noble. Friend (Lord Spencer)
when he took the duty off insurances of farming stock. He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intended to carry out the
principle, by proposing the abolition of the duty on in-
surances on farming buildings.—(Hear, hear.) This had
been much urged upon him, and he saw very strong reasons
which induced him to yield to the requests made, as he felt
that it would afford relief to a class of persons who had a just
claim to it. He knew that by following this course heps-
posed himself to some degree of sneering. ;It was of;etilhe
case that the person in his situation, by yielding to these
pressing requests, did not escape censure. He recollected
that the duty on taxed carts was much pressed on him, and
he was constantly urged to propose its repeal, and which it
length he did. Again, on another occasion, the duty on
tiles was taken off, in consequence of the duty on slates having
previously been remitted. The budgets, however, in which
these changes had been proposed, had been styled the tile-
budget, the taxed cart budget ; and one budget obtained the
name of the shepherds' dog budget.—( A laugh.) He did not
object to a laugh, and certainly this would not induce him
to give relief on such a ground as this. He trusted that
the House would not be alarmed at the supposition that
he intended to propose an increase of taxation. When be
looked through the schedule he did not find that there was
the least probability that an increase of taxation would
arise, except so far as what might result from an improved
system. In several instances he proposed that there should
be a less taxation on sums under a certain amount, and he
did not think that with regard to the proposed scale of
duties either the 'House or the country was entitled to
quarrel with him. The present system was evidently unfair as
regarded one end of the scale ; and he felt that he did no more
than an act of justice in attempting to equalise the charge.—
(Hear, hear.) He was sure that getting rid of the evil of the
present system was much more than a compensation to the
public for any apparent increase there .might be. He intended
therf, to repeal the present schedule of the Stamp Duties, with
the consent of the House, and to propose another which would
be printed and introduced in a Bill, and after Easter, when
the subject had been considered throughout the country, he
would proceed with it. If, however, it was the intention of
any Honourable Member to propose an increase of the duties,
it would be necessary again to go into a general committee on
the Stamp Acts ; for, although it was open to any Honourable
Gentleman to make a motion for a reduction of the duty on

the committal of the Bill, he could not, at that stage, propose
an increase of the duty. If, therefore, any Honourable Gen-
tleman wished to signalise himself in the House by proposing
an increase of taxation, he must do so for the edification of him-
self and the amusement of the House, in a general committee.
He would again urge the ground he had taken with reference
is the motion made a few nights ago by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Exeter. From the opinion which he bad then
expressed, he d:d not now feel disposed to depart. lie said to
the House that it was not just or right that the question of
taxation should be brought forward by detail, and each mat-
ter taken separately, but that it should be regarded as a col-
lected whole, and considered as having reference to the inte-
rests of•all classes, and not as merely having reference to the in-
terests of licensed victuallers on the one hand, or the great soap
and tallow interest on the other.—( A laugh.) The House
should not be called upon to vote for a motion on tax-
ation in detail, but Honourable Gentlemen should allow
the Government to bring forward its plan and consider
the subject as a whole, and to hear what was the amount
of the surplus revenue, and it would then be for the Par-
liament to dispose of it in the manner which it thought
most advisable. He did not think that it would be expedient
to introduce on that occasion subjects involving considerations
of the utmost importance, and having no immediate relation to
the matter before them. He felt that he should not be justi-
fied in the introduction of a Bill for the consolidation of the
Stamp duties, to state those matters which were likely to ex-
cite a discussion on a subject not only deeply interesting to
England, but also to Scotland and Ireland. But he was
anxious that the details of the measure should be made known
throughout the country before the House was called upon to
give a decided opinioc. He considered that this was con-
sistent with the principle which be had laid down, and which
he had argued to the satisfaction of the majority of the House
on the motion of the Hon. Member for Exeter. He would
notithen do more than ask the House not to pledge itself to a
matter of principle until he brought forward the whole sub-
ject connected with the finance of the country. On the
subject of the Newspaper Stamps it was not his intention to ask
the House to pledge itself, but he thought it was but fair and
just and candid to those who advocated the total abolition of
the newspaper tax, as well as to those who differed from them,
to state what he intended to propose on this subject in April
next. He did not at present mean to argue the question, but
he would merely state the outline of the plan, which Hon.
Gentlemen would wish to have time to consider, and which he
should have to propose in April, when they would be called
upon either to adopt or reject it. He could not hold out to
the Honourable Member behind him, for whom he enter-
tained feelings of the greatest respect, a promise to come for-
ward with a propositionsfor a total repeal of the newspaper
stamp duty. He could not make such a proposition to the
House, nor did he think that if he made it, the House would
acquiesce in it. Certainly the fear of the non-acquiescence
of the house in a proposition would not be sufficient to induce
him to withhold from bringing it forward if it was conformable
with his own feelings, and if lie thought that the public ser-
vice would be promoted by it. But he did not think that it
would be just on a financial ground to make such a proposition,
as well as on other considerations. The present Stamp Duty
on Newspapers, as Hon. Gentlemen were aware, was 4d., mi-
nus a discount of 20 per cent. When he was called upon to
reduce the whore of this duty, he would ask did not the State
do something for Newspapers?—( Hear, hear.) The State
undertook the duty of conveying Newspapers, free of postage,
to all parts of the country, therefore a certain portion of the
present Stamp Duty should be regarded in the light of pay-
ment for services rendered, rather than in the shape of a tax.
—( Hear, hear.) Indeed this part of the subject had made
such an impression on the minds of many Hon. Gentlemen
who had attended to it, that they recommended, as a substitute
for a Stamp Duty, a postage duty: This had often been
suggested : but, after the fullest consideration that he had
been able to give the subject, he was satisfied that the
plan would be found to be impracticable—( Hear, hear)—
because he Believed that by casting on the Post-office the
duty of levying this charge, and all the consequent duties
which would be round to proceed from the state of the
law, that it would materially interfere with the general
correspondbnce of the country. He said that the Stamp duty
'should be regarded partly as a tax, and partly as as the pay-
ment for the postage, and this opinion he was prepared to
maintain. He must also say that he thought he should act un-
justly that because he lived in London, he should be able to ob-
tain information free from duty, while those at distant and re-
mote districts would have to pay largely for it. He intended,
therefore, to propose that there should be a stamp-duty of
On a newspaper inMead of the present one of 4d.—(Hear?

hear:) He woultl argue the Sidestiori fihly against lion
fieralbtecti beliiiid hire; and Weilld 0:8 slip questionlrt all lig
bearins) and lie would 'Make the best ease he &kild egainit
the extreme views entertained on the subject; and he trusted
that the House would go with him to the extent he proposed,
which at present he admitted, was a crying evil.—(llear,
bear.) He could not help adverting to the state of the law
which had been alluded to by an Hon. and Learned Friend
in the edfly part *et thb et efiltisk, s t'datlng on personal liberty,
Ile stated last year, that as long as the law was in i 1.4 rfaelit
condition, no effort of his should be wanting to administer it for
the protection of those who had embarked their capital in
Newspapers. The Hon. Member for Finsbury, much-to his
honour, said that he never would sanction a breach of the law ;
but he lassgged the Hon: Menthes to recollect that it was his
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) bounden duty to en
forte the lair When he knew thdt the breadt or it, Was to
the detriment and injury of other individuals who 'sub-
mitted to it.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile had been sub-
jected to many attacks for enforcing the law ; but while he felt
it to be his duty to enforce it, he regretted the state of it, and
intended to take that course which he thought would prove a
remedy.—( Hear, hear.) He felt *satisfied that as long as there
was a high duty on Newspapers, and ever. when they made the
law as stringent as they possibly could, they could not effec-
tually put down the breach of it on this point, without looking
to the cause which produced it. This subject was brought
under discussion last session by his Hon. Friend the Member
for Lincoln, who made a' proposition similar to that which he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was now ready to recom-
mend to the House. He believed that his Honourable Friend
proposed that the Stamp Duty should be reduced to one penny.
Ile then argued as he now did, that he could not defend the
state of the law ; but that, in the then state of the finances of
the country, he wss not able to propose the alteration re-
quired. In April the subject would be brought under the at-
tention Of the House, when he should ba able to make a con-
cession without any great sacrifice, as regarded the financial
state of the country ; and when he should be acting in confor-
mity with the pledge which he gave to his Hon. Friend and
the House, and acting as be said that he would under the cir-
cumstances of the case. He had nothing more to trouble the
House with on the subject of Newspapers.
An HOB. MEMBER asked the Right Hon. Gentleman a
question respecting the probate duty, which was inaudible in
the gallery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that the great-alterations which he proposed with respect to
the descent of property was to charge the duty at once on the
net value, and not on the gross amount.—(Hear, hear.) He
was sure that there would be no objection to the change which
he proposcd.—( Hear, hear.) There was one new tax in the
Bill, or rather it was a slight extension of the law as it stood.
That was the transfer duty on shares of joint stock companies.
If they were transferred for a valuable consideration, there was
an immediate charge. He did not propose to meddle with
this, but lie intended to add a very small ad valorem tax on
the first issue of the shares.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish
to make this tax interfere with any mobil projects. No one
was less opposed than he. was to the exertions of capitalists for
objects which often were of national import, and lie felt bovnd
to say, that but for these companies, many of the most impor-
tant undertakings that had had such important and beneficial
effects on the country would never have been carried into ope-
ration.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he said he had no wish to
interfere with them ; but he did not conceive that the small
duty which he intended to propose would be considered ob-
jectionable on that ground. Certainly he did not conceive
thdt it would operate in any degree to check any useful under-
taking, but it might have some slight effect in transactions
of a different kind.—(Hear, hear.) He alluded to those
shares which were brought into the market when ten or
fifteen shillings had been paid on them, and which were ad-
vanced to a premium, and which were often matter of collu-
sion.—( Hear, hear.) His proposal, therefore, would be for
the benefit or parties wishing to engage in bond fide tranFac.
tions.—( Hear, hear.) He was sure that in bad projects
which were occasionally brought forward, the parties doing
so were not very chary as to the means they resorted to to
impose on the unwary, and what he proposed he believed
would be a check . on such persons. In addition to this
it would provide a register of the names of the parties, and
the House could resort to it to see that the standing orders
were really complied with when an Act was called for.
He repeated that he should be sorry to have it supposed
that he wished to check the exertions of capitalists in great
undertakings; but he wished to protect and guard the public
against projects which the proposers never intended to carry
into effect.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that the House would
not see any reason to object to the proposition he had to
make on this point.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to Ireland
he would observe, that the Stamp duties there were much
lower than they were in England. On taking the average
proportion he found that the English were to the Irish duties
as two to one. He proposed to adhere strictly to this arrange-
ment, with the exception of the Newspaper stamps, which he
intended to recommend should be placed on an uniforin duty
in all parts of the empire. He should neglect his duty if he
did not acknowledge what was due to his predecessors in office
with regard to the arrangements on this subject. He was also
bound to acknowledge the assistance rendered by the gentle-
men of the Stamp-office, and more especially by Mr. Timbs.
It had fallen to him to make the statement, and he should
have to introduce a Bill which would embody the charges and
regulations be proposed, which he believed would be satisfac-
tory to the public, and he trusted that it would afford adequate
and sufficient relief. He could not conclude without saying
that he felt much indebted to the efficient assistance rendered
to him in the details of this measure by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Newport (Mr. W. H. Ord) ; when be was en-
gaged and could not enter at length into the considerations of
this subject, his HOn. Friend directed himself to it with as
much advantage to the country as to his own character.—
( Hear, hear.) He trusted that he should be allowed to let
the Bill stand over, and that the discussion might be taken in
a future stage, and in the meantime it would be circulated
throughout the country.--(Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the first resolution—" That
the several stamp duties, allowances, and drawbacks now in
force shall be repealed, and that in lieu thereof the several
stamp duties, &c., named in the schedule hereinafter recited,
shall be put in force."
Mr. GOULBURN quite concurred with the Right Hon.
Gentleman, as to the advantages resulting from that judicious
system of consolidation which had been originated by the
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth in the criminal laws of the
country, which he had consolidated. • In 1830, when he (Mr.
Goulburn) had the honour of filling the situation now occupied
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he had with great
care prepared a Bill for consolidating the numerous statutes
relative to the Stamp duties, at that time amounting to 161,
which number, it now appeared, was somewhat reduced. Hav-
ing carefully prepared this Bill, he had had it printed, and it
was immediately afterwards submitted to the consideration of
the House. That schedule of duties proposed for consolida-
tion was, however, in many respects materially different from
the one now proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. That
Right Hon. Gentleman had all the advantage over him (Mr.
Goulburn) of .a much longer interval of peace, which natu-
rally put at his disposal a much larger amount of funds than
he (Mr. Goulburn) had had to deal with ; and this circum-
stance, of course, enabled him to propose a greater re-
duction than could by possibility be afforded at the former
period. This put the Right Hon. Gentleman in a much more
fortunate position. The preserfgelan was to consolidate all
the Stamp Acts into one general Act, extending to 330 sec-
tions. The one which he proposed contemplated the arrange-
ment of the consolidated duties into ten distinct branches, com-
prehending within each all the various statutes which came
within the scope of the respective branches of duties. This
arrangement, lie thought, would have offered very great facili-
ties to all parties, in searching out and clearly understanding
the nature of the law upon the several particular points. This,
he thought, would have been a much more useful and conve-
nient arrangement than the present. The branches into which
he heti intended to divide his schedule of consolidated duties
were ten in number :—the first relating to Starap duties on deeds
and instruments ; the second to those on bills of exchange and
promissory notes; the third to those on probates of wills and
letters of administration; the fourth to those on Newspapers;
the fifth to those on cards and dice ; the sixth to those on gold
and silver plate ; the seventh to those on hawkers and pedlars ;
the eighth to these on stage coaches and post horses ; the ninth
to proceedings in courts of law and equity in Ireland, and the
last to those on game certificates. Such an arrangement as this, he
thought, would have been a much more convenient one than
the proposed plan. Indeed, to term the proposed very lengthy
schedule a consolidation, seemed to him very much like the
idea of abridgment entertained by a legal friend of his, who in
his youth set about an abridgment of " Blackstone's Commen-
taries," which he so managed, however, that while the work
itself extends to four volume octavo, the abridgment ran to
twenty volumes folio.—(A laugh. and the question from some
Hon. Member, " Was this an Irish friend ?") No, an Eng-
lish one. Further, lie thought that before the Right Hon.
Gentleman introduced this schedule, involving as it did a very
considerable reduction of the duty on one article, if not on more
than one, lie should have followed the example -set by him
(Mr.
.Goulburn) in 1.530, by first laying before the House a
statement of the income and expenditure of the country.—
( Hear, hear, from the OppoSition benches.) For see to
what the Right Hon. Gentleman exposed himself by a con-
trary couse. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had ex-
pressly stated that he thought it wrong in principle to reduce
any particular tax until all the claims from various interests
for the reduction of the taxes which they respectively most
felt were •brought together before the House, or until the
House were made acquainted with the extent of the disposable
surplus. This was what the Right Honourable Gentleman
had stated, yet at the same time he had intimated to the
House that he stood pledged to the particular interest de-
siring reduction of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers. The
Right Honourable Gentleman professed his wish to leave
every question open until-the House was made acquainted with
a
the
as
toa n
circumstancessrpl u
s revenue o therf en revenuenehad been given, a
; yet, although
ndalthough
informa-
tion
te
claims of the various interests for relief had not been brought
to' 2ther before the House, the Right Hon. Gentleman
itnhatht
chsetaavmasp prolendtreesdontoNemwaskpeapearvs,ernyt
reductioniunsteo the Treasury an annual amount of
considerablequpresentie t ly tolbringing
h e il b
400,000/.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Mr. Goulburn) was not going
at present to anything as to what he thought the result of this
reduction would be ; but what he would say was, that the
question ought to have been left quite open, or that the griev-
ances in reference to the Newspaper Stamp should not alone
have been taken into consideration. That there were other
grievances clearly appeared the other night from' the discus-
sion respecting spirit licences.--( Hear, hear.) He would
now say a word or two as to the alteration of duties. There
had been this great deficiency in the Right Hon. Gentleman's
speech, that while he talked about reductions, and alterations,
and additions, to the various duties, he had not said a word
about what he thought would be the probable gain or loss from
those alterations and reductions. Upon the head (as was un-

derstood) of deeds, it was clear to him (Mr. Goulburn) that
the eff..dt of les'serliog the amount of duties on smaller tranfae-
tiqrlo;iirtd 111(•eitting it du the birger, would be to materially di-
the whop' rev6iplte dyr?ved frerit this sdu.• ee.--,4 Hear.)
With reference td ;lie cuitie4 cri pi:A:lt:if). Of wills, no
man who had ever filled the slitialiOn 1-4 f Chantellor of
the Exche.ner but must be peculiarly aware et NV numer-
ous and extreme difficulties of obtaining a satisfactory settle.
ment of the subject. Upon this head the Right Hon. Gen-
tletttart 11:1t1 ortiltted to point out by what course lie intended
to supply the piegth.tt rtia(ltinery, or to.„(tuard against the nu-
merous evasions of this duty. 'the ifight lion. Chancellor
s&d he did not intend to introduce more thin me new-object
of taxation—namely, that upon the original share Which any
person might take in ajoint-stock transaction. This was intro-
ducing quite a new principle.—( Hear, from the Opposition.)
There had always been a duty upon the transferor such shares,
but this was quite necessary. As to the proposed new duty,
however; he was ready to say, that if it were very small in
amount and only tended to facilitate the register of real
shares, in order that parties might know who were actually
embarked in the transaction, he could not at the present mo-
ment see any valid objection to it. If it were carried anything
beyond tihat he had described, he was certain it would operate
to a mischievous extent in checking the industry and the em-
ployment oceapital throughout the country. His future de-
cision on. this point, therefore, would depend entirely upon
the amount of the duty imposed. 'There was another point
upon which he wished to speak. It would be recollected,
that at the time when lie had himself brought this subject be-
fore the Flonse, he proposed to introduce an equalisation of the
Stamp Duties in •bothparts•of the United Kingdom—that the
same rate of Stamp Duties should run through England
and Ireland :—(Hear, hear.) lie could see no reason why
one portion of a united empire should have a higher rate of
duties levied upon it than was paid by the other.—(Hear.)
He had, certainly expected, that after all the eloquent ha-
rangues with which the House had fur some time past been
favoured, about assimilating everything in the two countries—
he had certainly expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in
connection with every other Hon. Member who had lately.
been so loud in demanding equal justice and equal laws for
Ireland, would on this occasion have arisen, and in the name
of his countrymen have exclaime" Degrade us no longer
by supposing that we are so poor at we cannot pay the same
rase of Stamp duty which you Englishmen pay : let not this
insult be perpetuated, but assimilate us in this, as in every.
thing else, with our English brethren." But the Right Hon.
Gentleman did not think it necessary to 'carry the assiolila-
thin to this extent. On the contrary, he expressly stated that
his proposal was, that in Ireland there should be paid only
one-half the amount of Stamp Duties levied in this country.
He did not wish to be understood as making this an abstract
matter of complaint or of objection, or of grudging the
Irish nation such an advantage if they were in need of
it • but he thought that, before it were proposed for the
adoption of the House it should have been shown that there
was such rr surplus revenue as would afford the propesed ad-
vantage to Ireland in addition to the great reduction de-
manded of the House in the Newspaper Stamp Duties. He
thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman would greatly have
facilitated to the House the proper understanding of the de.
tails of his proposition, if he had followed the plan adopted by
him (Mr. Goulburn) in 1830, of laying before the House, in
his printed statement, in parallel columns, the rate of existing
duties paid in different parts of the empire, and the rate of the
duties proposed to be substituted for them. Again, the Right
Hon. Gentleman, in stating that lie intended a reduction in
the duties upon the lower classes of bills of exchange, had not
made the least allusion to those on promissary notes, yet it
seemed to him (Mr. Goulburn) that if it were important to
reduce the duties on these, they ought in justice to deal in the
same way with promissory notes.—( Hear.) In conclusion, he
might observe, that he was far from being disposed to receive
unkindly even the smallest reductions of duties at the hands of
the Right Hon. Gentleman. And the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was mistaken in supposing that his taking off the duties
on shepherds' dogs, taxed carts, and tiles, was received either
unkindly or contemptuously as such. It was true that some
laughter had been excited on the occasion of the reductions in
question ; but-it was not at the reductions themselves, but at
their being gravely, pompously given forth as constituting a
wonderful boon to, and indeed almost a satisfaction in full of
all demands of the agricultural interest.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
He would only further observe, that lie quite concurred with
the Right Hon. Gentleman in hoping that no one would avail
himself of the opportunity presented by the immense number
of duties set forth in the consolidation schedule, to found upon
each of them an opportunity for extended or frivolous discus-
sion.—( Hear. )
Mr. E. BULWER should refrain from attempting to follow

the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite through the details
of the many wonderful things which he set forth as having
been his intention to bless the nation with.—( A laugh.) Upon
the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech he would only observe that
it was quite in keeping with tall acts of his former public life,
that though he had been ever opposed to the idea of giving to
the Irish people an equality of British advantages. be was now
most anxious to bestow upon her a full equality of British hard-
ships.—( Hear, hear.) Hor was it his (Mr. Bulwer's) inten-
tion to follow the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exche
quer through the details of his very admirable, eloquent, and
comprehensive speech ; he merely rose for the purpose of say-
ing a few words upon a subject in which he had himself been
more particularly interested. He had been much blamed out
of the House, and a little in it, for not pressing the House to
a division on the last occasion that he had the honour of
bringing forward the subject of the Stamp Duties on Newspa-
pers. His decision upon that occasion had been fouded upon
his conviction, from the assurance then given by the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that his object would
be as fully satisfied without going to a division, as if it went
successfully through that or several other divisions ; and
in all probability more speedily. As to the proposed reduc-
tion of the newspaper Stamp Duties to Id. he was still dis-
tinctly of opinion that the entire abolition of them was far
more desirable than any reduction, however large and liberal.
—( Hear, hear.) But at the same time, as he knew and ac-
knowledged that every liberal measure was the result of com-
promise, he should not think of rejecting the proposal of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, which under the circumstances he
considered to be the best compromise which could be offered.
—( Hear, hear.) He, however, should reserve to himself the
full right of speaking further upon this subject, and of voting
in a division as he should think fir.
Mr. ORD begged to offer the Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last his congratulations upon the near approximation which was
proposed to be made to the object which that Hon. Gentle-
man had so eloquently advocated, when in a small minority
upon the point. With reference to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, his proposal of placing in parallel columns the
existing Stamp Duties and those proposed to be substituted,
it would be impossible to act upon in the present case, from
the nature of the sections. As to the Right lion. IP entle-
man's joke about the abridgement of Blackstone in twenty
folio volumes, it applied much more aptly to the Rig* lion.
Gentleman's own consolidation schedule than to the one now
proposed. The schedule now proposed contained but 330
sections, while that of the Right Hon. Member extended to
456 sections, being thus more bulky by 126 sections than the
present one. —( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman complained that his Right Hon. Friend the Chan •
cellos of the Exchequer •had anticipated his budget, but the
same course had been pursued on former 'occasions.
Mr. T. DUNCOMB E rose to order. If the Government
were to have leave to bring on'the 9overnment, orders to the
exclusion of motions, and long discussions were to ensue upon
them, it would be impossible for Gentlemen who had motions to
make, ever to bring them forward.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
did not say this with the least wish to press his motion on the
House ; he knew it would be defeated by a large majority—
( A laugh) ; nevertheless he would press it to a'llivision—but
he asked the question with reference to other motions, and
amongst them that of his Hon. Colleague, who had a motion
on the paper for the total repeal of the Stamp Duty on News-
papers. He. was also favourable to the total repeal of that
duty. The motion of his Hon. Colleague was made to give
way, that the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
might make his statement, and the understanding was that
no discussion should take place.—( Hear, hear, hear.) They
could not prevent Hon. Gentlemen opposite from discussing
the question if they pleased—it was a matter of taste for
their consideration—and the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for the University of Cambridge had gone into the
question in a manner that rendered it impossible the debate
could be put a stop to now unless he could prove that the
spirit in which the subject was entered into had been violated
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. and by the Hon. Gentleman who was one of the
Lords of the Treasury.
Mr. ORD would save the House the trouble of debating the
question of order by resting on the statement of his Right
Hon.. Friend to answer the objections which had been urged
against it. The Hon. Gentleman then acknowledged the
compliment which in so gratifying a manner had been 1 aid to
him by his Right Hon. Friend.
Mr. G OU LB U RN said his complaint was that the House
would come to the discussion of this question, the Government
being pledged to the reduction of the duty.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME expressed himself satisfied with the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as far as it went ; but he still
entertained a hope, that at no very distant period, a new light
would break in upon the Right Hon. Gentleman, and that he
would become favourable to the entire repeal of the News-
paper tax. •
Sir G. CLERK suggested to the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that the present period would be a favourable opportunity to
take into consideration the Act of last Session for regulating
the assessing of taxes in Scotland.
Mr. WA KLEY was not satisfied with the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, nor would his constituents be. He
should certainly take an opportunity of dividing the House on
the question as to the total repeal of the Newspaper Stamp
duty. That impost was proposed originally by 10th Anne, for
the purpose of putting down publications obnoxious to the Go-
vernment. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that
the general impression out of doors was, that the Stamp Tax
was imposed in order that the Newspapers might not give po-
litical information. The people thought that the goings on in
this House were such that the tax was imposed to prevent the
people from coming to a knowledge of them.-4 Cries of
" Oh !). The people required information, and why was it
to be denied to them ? The Hon. Gentleman then referred
to the case of Cleave, who was confined in Tothill-fields pri-
son for an alleged infraction of the Stamp Act. He never
saw a more revolting sight than he witnessed last Friday, when
he went to visit Cleave in prison. The 16th George 11. pro-
vided for the punishment of the " venders" of unstamped News-
papers. Mr. Cleave when he was seized had the papers in
his bag in a cab. He was asked what he had in his posses-
sion, and he replied " Newspapers," he was not " vending"
them. Who could say what description of paper came legally
under that definition ? What was news ? People had no
right to publish the debates of the House. Could they be
called news? Lord Tenterden had decided that it was illegal

7
to public elide reports. Could they, then, be called nrv,sss'
i
He thought these matters were subjects to which Minista
ought to give their most seriona consideration•
rinting the
Mr. GOULBURN urged the necessity
of p •
bad been
scales of taxation in parallel columns. No answer
made to alit question. idCu be
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa
would ei daavour to gat the lists made out in the most
piste from. sled.
The Holm then resumed, and the resolution was repo
Mr. MILES presented a petition from Bristol for the
peal of the Stamp Duties.
SOAP AND TALIAIV DUTIES.
that
Mr. HANDLEY then moved a resolution to the effoet 0.,
it teas expedient to repeal the excise duty on soap and te:%c
nient the custom duties on foreign tallow. The parties io :
behalf he now appeared, were unfortunatel too often excha'..,.
from the financial operations of the Chancellor of the Excheqfler)
from whatever side of the House he might come.—( Al°°°
His Majesty in his gracious spt,ech from the throne, called on
the House to direct a special inquiry into whatever meast,ll:f:
might alleviate the distress of the agricultural districts. .I°l
existence of great agricultural distress was well known, avne`a
iss character was not mitigated up to last year.
He hFlie„
that the manufacturers and operatives had come to the
nion that prices might be too low when accompanied
‘'):'‘
the distress of the agricultural classes. From 1810 to t 0
the average price of tallow was 735. per cwt. ; from 16".
to 1830 it had fallen to 425. Independent of having to cor.
tend with a low duty on tallow, and a large foreign suPLIle),.:
the soap manufacturer, who was perhaps their best iiich
tomer, had to contend against a system of excise w bt
nothing but necessity would justify. What would be till
of that system which debarred manufacturers born aval I°o,l
themselves of the improvements which chemical research
discovery presented to them? The soap-manufacturers ?at:
long been restricted from making use of such discoveries tnea
were even now subject to the same restrictions as were iturslet?
in the reign of Queen Anne. And what was the resa
Thel e was smuggling to a great extent. Owing to there be:.
no duty in Ireland; the smuggling from that country was c,..,
siderable ; the home manufacturer was unable to compete an;
the foreign producer ; and There was no export trade' a 5
shouldnow refer to the report of the Excise Commissioners Ile
to this subject; but before he opened that Pandora ha, r,
would mention that the first recommendation of the conaral_scf
sinners was, that the duty should be extended to Ireland, a;
the regulations be the same in both countries. He COngry.g
fated the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for Dublin 0;
evenhanded justice was about, at length, to be dealt Out
the sister kingdom.—(Laughter, and Opposition cheera.)
trusted that he should have the Hon. and Learned Gl°
man's support. Either the Hon. and Learned Gentletaseee
must vote for his motion this night, or he must submit t°_, t,,
his fair land trodden by a formidable phalanx of soap-ati4;
collecting excisemen.—(A laugh.) He supposed he "sis
upon this occasion to be opposed by the Right Hon. the
dent of the Board of Trade, whom he observed taking riot
but it was to be remembered that that Right Hon. Gentleatti;ig
had proposed taking the duty off printed calicoes, and p
it on cotton. In opposition to what he had heard proPosetid' o
was conscious that it might no doubt be said, that it well' ate
found a great inconvenience to Russia if they imposed a fire
the
duty upon tallow than what there was at this moment ul3°- ter
article ; that, in fact, Russia would not like to see a W.ea.,,s
duty imposed. Now, he would say, that so far as Russla,"o,--
concerned, we took three times the amount of value from "'A s
sia that she took from us.—( Hear, hear.) Russia inVsei,
duty of 121 per cent. upon all our goods, and excluded
gcther our refined sugars.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It seesrn t
from the discussion of the other evening that nothing rra".s;
be done with regard to the spirit licenses, and that avenues
they found the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Excbeclach
had bespoken a large portion of the Revenue. He very 111-,Tes
doubted that so large a portion was allotted in a ataat-ba
quite congenial to the feelings of the moral population do
country.—( Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) negag
now, with costs of collecting, was 600,000/. By imp able
upon Russian tallow a duty of 10/. a ton, they would be ate,„
to raise 320,000/., leaving 280,000/. to come out of the to
plus. Ile was aware that what he proposed was calculat this
raise the price of candles. That was the difficulty to
case,, and the only one, he believed, against which be ht'els
contend. He should nowspnclude by moving, in the tel ° ata
of his motion, " That it ispedient to repeal the excise
on soap, and to augment the customs' duties on foreign the
low." After the motion had been read from the Chair' age
Honourable Member changed it for one to the effect, that and
House should resolve itself into a committee upon cost
a°, cars
excise, for the purpose of considering the pr6priety oou
ing the duty on soap, and augmenting the cusiorns' chit"
foreign tallow. nsal
Mr. HALFORD seconded the motion. The Plop
the Hon. Gentleman was calculated to benefit the ag/
ral interests, and not only their interests, but, in his 013`11:011
that of every other class of the community. He knew veil oe
that they would hear of the impolicy of imposing a tax uP°,u;eal
raw material. It was his opinion that free trade and put no
economy did not apply to such a subject as this. He bald for
doubt that the small increase of duty which was now sous
on the foreign article would increase the value of land -oat
30s. per acre— there would be an advance in the price to
witu
amount. He would say for himself that he was bound uP of a
the manufacturiug interest, and was the representative cleer
manufacturing as well as an agricultural district. It vr6,:tela
that any injury done to the manufacturers would immesaa
be recoiled upon the land. In the district that he represen'is
this was felt to be the case. Leicestershire was a count,,Ypras
which the manufacturers exceeded the agriculturists--t",-,
139,303/. 6s. was levied in one year for poor and county ra''-ts'
and in that contribution paid by mills and factories, liable. be
the assessments, was but 7831. The cost of a candle white
gave light in the cottage of a Leicestershire weaver, was
be deducted from his scanty earnings. Such all indiviloun'
would feel the increased cost ; but the proposal of his „off
Friend comprised a reduction in an article which vgais,eqh-e.050
necessary. He should ask them whether they w°,111;:e0001:!
between cheap Newspapers and cheap soap ?—which
conducive to the conduct of the labouring part of the aal
nity.—(Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. POULETT THOMSON stated, that if the revellieaude
were in a condition to spare the amount which his Hon.
proposed to claim, this was not the Mode in which he s f
be inclined to appropriate it ; because the proposition) nista.
Hon. Friend was entirely oosed to the whole course of e:gaiog
tion, followed up for years bppy successive Governments, beg', 11, by
with the Government in 1826 under Lord Liverpoe`o'graa
the Government of the Duke of Wellington • by the
,9.0-00,
merit of Lord Grey ; by the Government of 'the Right pt
Gentleman opposite, and by the Government at presell'„o-•
existing.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe that the Pr-bita
sition of his Hon. Friend had been correct) stated as ~t°toort
bearings by him. His Hon. Friend, so far as he Unde.:;bed
him, proposed to transfer the duty to this extent ; be "„:, for
to get rid of the Excise Duty, and he proposed to snake, "i.rasaa
the loss of this duty by the imposition of a fresh tax ; t°l3'
.01t,
a duty of 10/. per ton. His Hon. Friend stated as the re; ills
a loss of 250,0001. to the revenue; and as he understoouoot.
Hon. Friend, the gain to the consumer would be 50°,°,,,,a1
Now, he would undertake to show that the consumer be
not be benefited, that the landed proprietor would toe a
benefited, and that the country generally would I°s, iu
great deal.—( Hear, hear.) The consumption of tallOcera
this country was 155,000 tons ; of these 55,000 tons,„o : 000
foreign tallow which were imported, and there were of
tons home produce. Take, then, the revenue on the effects
his Hon. Friend, supposing his plan to be carried into cod
and that 55,000 tons was the quantity at present ifurriia he
suppose that so much should continue to be imported (~e,'" the
was prepared to show afterwards that such would not `"- into
case), but supposing the same quantity should still cure`ofr-'
the home market, the duty upon that would be 550,00-oattt
(Hear, hear.) From that they should' deduct the -‘ses•
of the duty at present imposed, 171,000/ , and ther"
mained then the sum of 379,0001., as to probable revedutity,
His Hon. Friend had proposed the repeal of the 5aa13,834;
which he said was about 600,000/. That was the duty in`` „saa
but the net amount of the duty deducting the drawbac, • a;
736,000/. His Hon. Friend had added a chargefor c •0 4%
()get°•
but they all knew from experience, that where the 0015 be
„,uld
isted for certain purposes, the reduction of officers wa
nothing like the large amount, or equal to the difference 'the,
his Hon. Friend had stated.—( Hear, hear.) Dcductingo'ia be
379,0001. from 736,000/., the loss to the revenue "-rain%
355,0001., according to his Hon. Friend's plan. But ace; pie%
to that statement, he supposed that there would be n°.easoa-
off in the import of the article ; but he was not right 111 "-f ity
ing that ; bn the contrary, the natural result would be; °a ton'
posing, where there was 3/. a ton duty, an additionalo,7!o're svaS
adding to the price of the article 20 per cent. I°""ibere
every reason for calculating, when that was done, that would
would be a falling off of 15,000 or 20,000 tons. 'Thal 0 lass
reduce the revenue still further—it would increase ilia
of the revenue, as stated by his Hon. Friend, 250"asies-
.but by him 350,000/. This was to be regarded as ,"..sats
tion of revenue—and as a loss to the revenue of sues"; Lot
anotae• .10) to
they had to look to it. But lie now came to
the
0p Oil
of the argument of his Hon. Friend, namely,
the consumer, which had been stated at 300,00C"sitage°
Hon. Friend had admitted, indeed, that some disadva- That
would perhaps arise from the increased price of cancilesse're Was
increased sum was to be paid by the consumer ; and °bine/.
also an increased sum to be paid by those using niese+l,o sub:
But really his Hon. Friend bad passed by this part °'..stieli
ject, as if it were of very little importance. Ths`,„-eishe,"
course should be taken by his Hon. Friend, greatly ag"-ic tar
him.-- (Hear, hear.) There were 200,000 ton; of hen cola
low, and of foreign 55,000 tons. How, then, did theYsbich
into consumption ? According to facts and calculationsi. sow
could be made, it appeared that the amount of tall'?‘ ijoai
sumcd in soap was 25,000 tons. He could give h,hls, toed
Friend the calculations, and be would find that 1-01iite„"
amount of soap charged was 67,000 tons. It was ca vera
that there was about 11 cwt. of tallow to a ton of soar•of Fais,,
were, then, 96,000 tons of tallow for the consumption 15,00,1
What was the quantity used in machinery? PessiblYbieb
lei
tons ; and thus they bad 130,000 tons of tallow, on
thus fr°ll",,
Hon. Friend proposed an additional tax, and 25,00" ' 0
which he proposed to take off the duty.—(/.Hear' hcear''°'°°
had made this calculation, and he supposed that th auti
tons on which his Hort. Friend proposed to increase t 3/. 45..;
by the amount of 61. 16s. (the present duty anionheingnt
added to it would make it 10/. the ton), that would
thug ose,a
884,000/. He added of course to this sum the 25,000,t scow
on soap, the amount on which would be 170,0001 ta3. the
make a total of 1,024,000/. according to his cstimate,,u'a have
fore, if they took 736,000/. from 1,024,000/, theYw_staad
the remaining sum lost. There would be this loss, tu_cie Prof
the gain to the consumer. —( Hear.) The only nt_utomt
posed for securing the revenue was by raising the,.a;o,porte:b
duty 6/. 16s. a ton, that was supposing the arnour b'y wised
as at present should continue ; it was the only Inetlewas gad
they could secure the revenue. But when the duty would (
SO much a ton, and the impost was found to fail, Ogallala "
obliged to go as high as 20/. a ton to have any