The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-12 00:00:00

prepared.to argue, that thTs woul.r•Pprove,a.sFatem of :relief,
end try put it in Opposition to- that 01 the honourable and
Learned Gentleman; and he should he much. deceived if
it were not found more compatible with the true inte-
rests Of the country than the system of the Honourable
and Learn, d -Gentleman. and especially condoeive to the la-
llef of Ihe agricultural intyroa. When he insetted this sub-
ject to the House, he should not call upon them at once to
come to a viite on it; be -should lem'e it toy consideration a
iheent time, to enable them delilierateiy to- decide rot its
rierils. lie should not only feel that he did not do justice to'
the Hoose Were he to take a different comae, but lie should
feel that he denied the country the benefit which they
derive frens the wisilion of Parliament; if .OppUrtu-
riity were not afforded 'to' consider 'it folly, And even to,
receive Mew materials to assist their jsirignreitt.- lie wished
for nothing mote than that this iinportaut subject -shauld
be freely'and Isirly.ilebated. tie pr otested 'against c.outing
to a" deeiSirni, before they Could have time safely to torns
their The :7P...re5.:t00 was conspleaity in itself, and
-surriotodeel as it was wit great and startling difficulties,
they ought not to attempt disposing Of it hl a Moment. On
general principles he. agreed 'witlnanueli of what had fallen
from the lion. and LeOrned•,Crentlerisan. He agreed that it
Was the duty Of Nlitiisters to ecenontiae.—(}fear, hear!) But
when he spoke of 'ecorairoy he meant rational 'rebnonty.- I-le
Wished the trioneysof the c,iortry to be administered with such
ecoormiy astroightdiroinish r.trblie hurt!, us as far as this
was pracoleabie; after the -stru,,:gleirt which the country had
been engaged, and which bad- briiught on the present dis-
treas=a distress Veal Ire hoped Would prove but temporary.
He wished for economy as 'tar as was consistent with trite
policy, and,wills the principles of eternal-justice. But moil
tiny knew what retretielancsitshaitheen effected by Ititiaters,
acting under the injunction of Parliatlient, since it last met,
they could uric Islam what relief could he afforded to the people,
for they could nothnOw the means of which theyaverepossesSed.
They.eetild not' know what measure of relief could be grant-
ed until they knew o het Could safety be ran-Jed-They could
not know in what manner to apply t hemeani they did pos-
sess to the best tolvaloage, until they calculated by what ap-
plication they would fructify- Most far the benefit of the cone-
try. If the use should that 'night adopt the proposition of
the Hots. and Learned Gentleman, before they knew what
the.system which the (overoment has to recommend was,
they' would not be acting- as became a' rational body. They
would not decide upon the question creditably to themselves,
if they came to such a conclusion; and'he was quite sure that
by so doing t beftvotilif not give satisfaction 'to the country.
With this view,.aird wishing.: it distinctly to be understood,
that Gentlemen should not bard themselves by the decision
of that night, hut that the Proposition of the Hots. and Learn-
ed Gentleman should remotes open- to
„their adoption here-.
after, he called upon the House iii common sense and iii
common reason, to vote-the. previous 'question', and thereby
declare only that this was not the proper timettodecide on the
great questions which the motiori enibratted.-(Loutt cheering.)
Mr. CALCRATT-expressed his surprise at the mode in
which the Noble Lord had approached that-tfirestiona sur-
prise in which he- -seas sine that the country, could they see
the speech of -the Noble Lord, would participate. The topics
which he had •eliscussed were not at • all connected with the
subject. Would the Noble Lord contend that it would be no
Cheek to thosf Gentlemen to be-ohliged to-appear at the tinter
they received their pensions, 'when it could he known why
they received them ? ‘Vorild it be-no check on those persons •
if there c-as a chance of their losing those pensions To them
the Noble Lord appeared not to grudge any giant, but lie ap-
peared to lament .Over the money granted •to the men who
bad served their country as soldiers, as sailors, and as officers.
Jobi, were not a theme of lamentation is, the Noble Lord;
for though he had grieved over the half pay of tlsose who. had
deserved well of the nation, be had never entertained any
sorrow when he hail seen the 'Secretary to the Board ofCon-
.trol raisehis salary from 1,5001. per annum to 2,200). That
' and such like subjects trained uo source of lamentation for
the Noble Lord, NVIIO had 'expressed his remarks—who had in-
tintated—who had besought the House to vote -fur the ;anions
question,-on a promise that ors Friday, be would enter tit large
on the question of relief for the Agricultural distress iit the
country-. If the Noble Lord really wished to afford that re-
lief, the agreeing with the motion of the 1-lon. and Learned
Member would be nothing more than a promise to-do so, for
that motion required outline.: more than a removal-of taxation
as oue of thy means for producing that effect. But what cre,
dit was due to the Noble Lord,. the House ought already to
know welt. The Noble Lord had,.last Session, nude use of si-
usi.lar words, but with whateffect ? The 'question oft he -dis-
tress of the Agricultural classes had been referred by the ma-
th:slurring of the Noble Lord to a Committee-composed for the
toast part of the -Noble Lord's own- adherents• and special
friends,`-and they had drawn op the Report Of that Commit-
-tee wed 'what relief had the countrysexperiericed from the
labours of that Committee? The-Country Gentlemen could
well declare what relief-they had received, and Irons the past,
they could judge. of the future. What prospect had the speech
of the Not•le Lordthen offered ?—Not even the slightest oleo-
lion had been. made of the remittal or of the,reduelion of any
tax. If any alleviation of the taxes was contemplated by the
Ministry, would it not have been easy for the Noble Loud to
state that intention? But the Noble Lord had studiously
avOded all such -promises, or evert all such prospect...—
Coupling, I bereforeialte declaration of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer with the case - obSerreirby the Noble Lord, its
avoiding all statements as to rio:uctioes of the taxes, the House
and the country had the strongest presumptive proof that.fkli-
;lister s bad no intention whatever of reducing the weight .of
taxes.—Two of the responsible officera of. the Crown had
thus given their assurance to the people that alleviations of
taxes was not contemplated. The proposition of the Hon.
and .Learried Alernbet was nothing more than that taxation
must be reduced to relieve the agricultural interests: Ibis
Honourable and Learned Friend hail. stated the weight of
taxation to-bean evil to the country; but that was not-the
evil of which the Noble Lord.complained; the Noble Lord re-
garded the -loss of his own situ:ail/1i as the greatevil, fur, ac-
cording to the reasoning of the Noble Lord, it appeared that the
only evil was that he and. his colleagues should lose their
places. The Noble Lord thought that the country could in
reality only suffer from that formidable evil ; but the House
ought to know lite 'reality of • that evil. In Ireland, the re.
stilt of tine Noble Lord's labours were well to be seen; and
England could there behold what it had to expect from the
Noble Lord. Inli eland, wbete the Noble Lord had fast be-
gan his political career, could Great Britain see the fruits 'of
this Noble Lord's industry,—there had' the Noble Lord nicht-
ced the Repreaentatives of that people to surrender the rights
of their country, and to trust to Isis promises for hefuture :
But what had the-Noble Lord then done to redeem these pro-
mises'? Vchat measure had the Noble Lord proposed for the
relief of that country? What measure to ameliorate the situ-
ation of that unfortunate island ? It the Noble Lord prided
himself upon his conduct towards that couritry, and if the No-
ble Lord telt, like every other man, any affection for the land of
his birth, it was good to look- to the result .of the Noble Lord's
efforts. What were they ? Ever. the Noble Lord, it his heart
had eves a spark of manly warmth, roust lanieitt to behold the
state of that portion of the kargdorn ; he must lament to think'
that he nes erliad called his silent ion tot be ruransof allei iating
its misery, or of establishing its welfare; that he had not evert
cast a thought upon it, except when its toisfortunes stared
hint fully in the face. The voice of the Noble Lord was
minute—it was never exerted for Ireland's benefit, but when it
vatted for fresh vials of misery to he pained upon that no-
b:ropy cormtry.. The Noble lair d, ru order ter rebut the
charge of having extended the extravagant grants' stated by
the Hari. and Learned Member, had accused the Gentlemen
on the opposite side of the- House of having been the pro
neuters of that system. He denied the truth of that allega-
tion ; for the truth was, that Mr. Windham and Gen. Craw-
ford had nut been of the regular Opposition. They had be-
longed to a small party, and they rowere who, propounded
that extravagairt questioit. He toad ever opposed that sys- •
tens, and be could even appeal to the Noble Lord himself, :is
being well acquainted trill,. the history of that period, as to
the truth of the regular Opposition having always opposed,
and even endeavoured to •reduce that system, but without
ell, ct. The Hommrable Member here apologized to the
House fur having so long detain, d its attention. It had,
during the latter part of the obaerrations of the Ho-
nourable Member, been extremely inattentive, and great
contusion prevailed, notwithstatoliog frequent demands of
order from the chair. The Honourable Membercunclud-
ed by statiog,a hat he would only detain it fur :s few moo
merits longer, while he besought.the country Gentlemen, as
'well as the other Memberi who had any hesitation as to the
manner its which they intended to vote; to give-it in favour
of 'lie Imo ion of his Hort. Friend, by which they would oblige
Ministers -to give relief. If be thotight that Ministeri really
recant to give relref, and if he could consider the rAotion Gf
his Hun. and Learned Friend to be opposed to grautitig- relief
to the Agriculturists, he would vote Against it ; • but when
Goyertunertt had not declared its willingness to ternove any
of the burdens of the people, an.! had not green any pledge sO
to do, he felt it his linty to support a motion, which avas-Cal-
cisiatcal to isnow the real wishes of Members-as to affording
that mooch dashed
A. SIEMBEIt, whose name could not he ascertained, said
that ire should vote against the motion, because he thongto
it would he unfair towards the Ministers nut to wait forth,
explanation of their intentions. At the state .time he most
`observe, that if flee -tr they proposed did not go tar
, •re ine.o es
roonigh to ufford considerable relief to the country,-he should
"sopport others-more calculated to"du that it they "shoulstcorue-
fcron ft differs:or quarter.
IW.;ARDO said, it -was perfectly consistent in those '
qe -wh. correei ved. that the variation in tbe cut rency
had been as petit as had beets stated, fir' call fora 'clue
lion of tiptiqiun, imonitlch as they: might say taut thOugliet

prices httd-fal4e!'t in. conspqaetielit that,ear4tino,•-yet)thet
.had. the.aarne notional :amount of taxes to• pay._ ',But flu
himself., • who 'thought.- that, the variation in, th'e• currency
was •touch less t hen :was . ,p,3oy,supposed, Ite- could% nut
admit that taxation.•operat ed su greatly in produentg the
depression of the agricultural interest as was asserketl--,His
Hun. Friend had alluded to the tax upon leat hee,, which, it
;had been proposed' to ,repeal, but theptrsons engaged i i the
leather trade petitioned against the repeal, staling, -that
thonele navy taxes•existed, yet they mete able to makelaree
profits by .advancing the prices. That appeared to
i,Mr.:11..). nut' to• be an argument •for a .reduction of the
taxation, fur the relief of agriculture, but a ;reason- why
the agriculturist should rather petition against any • such
reduction.. .•His "Hoteourablu • Friend maths' a vast, dis 4
tins:lion • between the agriculturist and the manufacturer,
as to the .-effect of taxation. The tax oh .mantsict sees;
he said, was easily charged• to the consumer ; but lie
(Mi'. R.) was at a loss to conceive. how it -could be sup-
posed ..1 hat the taxes - on." the agriculturist were not i 1151!
Charged to the consumer; and it. was because he believed -
,that they were charged to the consumer, that he cemeeiveo..
taxation not to be ,the Call., of the depression of
tore; • but that it was 'owing to other censes' which had been '
mf-reel 'entinterated, amongst -which he would tuentiem••the
superabundant • preduce, and the large constant importa-
tions front`•lteland, and he thought that Gentlemen tie-.
eeived themselves, if they believed that any reduction of
taxation winch- his Honourable Friend could -propose, or
which the Lloverinnent could postiblY agree to, IsOuld afford
Any. great relief.—(Hear, hear, hear,-from the Mithstai
isi
Behebes,)—ll is Honain able Friend • seemed to suppdse,
,lhat there were' persons in the House, and els-6.016e, who'
' wishi d to deprive the landholder of his fair and just weight
and :cousideration in • the •coun: ry ; he (Ay. ,Bieardo) cuuld•
`not think that arty such persons ex4ted. h respect to the
stock-holder, it. appeared to tie sapposed, that a sehente had
been furine4/for transferring the propertyjn the soil lion,
the landholder to. the stood holder; 'bat he knew of no such
pri,ject, nor did he-believe that it had ever been entertained.
fti reality, at the. present moment, the stockholders'were,
co:a-great
,extent,t he proprietois tit the land ; for, inasmuch
as they received a certain sum in taxes from the .landboider,
they had, to the extent of that ainount,• a claim ou the
land. But that was tin more-than in fairness they were
en-
titled to. If' every man had been called upon by the Mini-
ster to contribute, in proportion to • his possessions, towards
the funds reqnisite: fur. det;aying the eXtieVICCS of the war,
he would. ask whether the landholders ninSt net-hate parted
with a considerable part ion of ? And if-other
persons had been toundio advance the capital for them, upon
what principle could they claim to be discharged frtint the
payment of the interest ?- He did nut,ask for title stockholder
mute titan be was entitled to: hut he could not but think
that the compact with the steekholdet should be thoroughly
fulfilled. Ott a future occasion •he wohld-talie an opportii:
oily, il the Houie would do hint-the favourto listen to hint,
to give the reasons why he thought the alteratiim.in the cur
ram,' h d been Lanett • overstated, and why he -ettneeiVed, its
tt thiiii;;lit- he cutild undertake to-prove, -that the whole
,ent of the effect which the measure adopted •in IS /9- had
tad iu reducing. the prices of produce did nut exceed five
per cent.
Mr. BROUGHAM 'explained.•
•
Mr. W. PF,EI. spoke briefly 'against. the ;tuition. He br-
tieved, that Ministers were quite as willing and as anxious to
relieve the distress of the country as thoseTersons why dealt
in nothing but assertion and complaint.. ' He Was. gratified
that reduetions". were aliout• to be made from the highest
offices to the lowest,, as
,he was conviticed that such realm-
laical arrangements would slot only relieve, but satisfy, the
country. . •
Mr. BROUGHAM rose, and said, that Ire should trouble
the-House sexy shortly in reply. The Noble Lord had char-
ged hint ttiih inconsistencY, for hating, us the Noble Lord
affit Med, eOmplained of the weight of the half-pay and pen-
sion-list, tt Mile he had supported . General Cranfurd and
Mr. Windham ill the propositions whieh had created this
ourtheo. Now the Noble' Lot d 1141, attributed to him this
coocurrence .of opinion with .two gentlemen, one of whom
he should not know by 'sight, and with lire other of whom
ire had veryintfreqinenf opFrortnuities of -Concurring. Peng-
ral Cranfuld, he had never been in-company With even in pri-
Vale society; and with Mm'. Windham, unfortunately for hi.oselt,
-he bad passedlautis short part of onesession in that House(hear.)
The Noble-Lord, tooosath equal con eetness, had charged him
with supporting me:Lsures in 1503, -seven long years-befare
he hall the honour of a seat in that House.—(Heat !)--11ut •
though he had ito cannexion with the measures of Mr. %Vint].
' ham, he should remark that the Noble Lord had dealt very
tiotairly .with,t hat, Gentleman, for he, hadcharged Mr. Wind-
ham with the %%bide dead weight 'of four willious, the diffea-•
dice between the halt-pay
,of 1792, which amounted to
'500,0001., anti that of the pi esent day. Mr. Windham's plito
only tended to augment the charge. a little on -a particUlae
branch; yet the. Noble laud charged him with the whele._of
the 4,700,0001., which incloded -the Army and Nary, the in-
'pensioners of Chelsea and' Kiltuainhani, and the expence of
'Greeowich Hospital. Such a degree of exaggeration, as the'
Noble. Lord would terra it, was quite preposterous. The
Noble Lord-had also observed, '• the -House will.perceive
the way how little relief is to be expected from, the redoetisin
of taxation, when in latti eighteen millions of thXes had been,
taken off, and yet very little relief' had been eXperieneed."
But he would ask the Noble ,Lord, could the .country have
'continued to ithont that reduclitin?----(Hear, hear,
.heat !J—We' here very bad as we were, Mit how should We
have been with eighteen millions in addition to-our load?--
(Hear, bear, iteter!l—flis•(Mri B.'s) complaint was' that at
the ti we that the House had taken off that nominal
of taxes, Su great •a change had been effected in•the ciirrency,
that our buithens had been increased to an equal, nay, to
still greater.amount ; the increaser y•the change ot the cur-
rency being at the value (>1.22 millions, while the diminution
-by tint repeal,of taxes was only 22 ni
Hon. Friewil (Mr. Ricardo) had also sought to convict biro o

an inconsistency. Because be (Mr. Biougharn) had tetnarked,
that the Leather Tax had been ficeined beneficial by tbcdeal-
ers,-therefore, according to his Hon. Friend, he should hare
.asserted that the tax on agricultural produce stniuld be 1'en,417
cial to the firiners. lie knew not whether his Hon. Friend had

been infected by•t he Noble-Laird with that spiritoljocularity iu
which the speech ut the Noble Lord had abounded, but it
not, it was Medallist:lit on him to slew souse parity
the- eases; The gist of his (Hr. -Brougham's) reniarlf. had
been, that in the 'ease of the leather, the Jew great capitai-
ists who conducted it, were; by-means .of the additional
pita{ which the tax 'rendered necessary, enabled to (Irate' a-
monopoly, while, ot, the abolition of the-tax, they said the
small capitalists would be enabled to step in. Nu,- if his
Hon. Friend would skew him three or tow agriculturists
managed in their own hands the,whole business ut taming-
in the country, he would say t here ,was a resemblance between
the cases.—H e would once 111016 befirre the Houseproceethn
to a division, pray the Gentlemen to-consider the step theywtrr
laking—(Hearl)—TheNoble'Lord • Kati urged them to agree
with Ina) on the previous qtrestion, hev.atist having so voter!
they might on Friday sole tor his -(Mr. B.'s) motion; by way of -
amendment, if the measures which the Noble Lord might then
' propose should not besatistactury.-,lthasoccurretltottteNoble
Lord that a serious advantage is gained by waiting till Friday,
though he gave them to Understand that nu relict-would thin be
atrorded to the country—by reduction ot• taxes. The Noble,
Lord now called nn them to'vOte tor Ihe pit villas question ; ou
Friday he-wbuld calion' them not to vote•at ale; to pause-auo
eArsider ; ally thin,,r, rather than a decision, anything to
avoid- the issue, lice only real and intelligible- issue—shall
there or shall there not be a 'reduction of taxation ? by

wheedling this Member, qty ltreatening-tkat, by setting out
part of the Hattie against. another, by amusing. two
.patts at
Ilse expence, of a third; above all, be threatening to resign—
(Hear, hear, hear!' and •a Ituglij-,-that ,ultimuin suppii
L'ooo to his suppurters, that whip- with whieh-to-rouse-teen
failing energy when the pressure front the people Wit ilptlt ass
their rept esentatives, or those thatslonld bet ben kepresenta-
tiyes, btgati to bear them-down apdopiness •';1 know,"
hid the Noble Lord said, that thts'is a threat to thos,e

nit, t hough it is no threat to the emlutiy, that I 5 Itould have
the power which I have &Aped, which I am determint.ti not le
tile for the relief of the country." lie(Alr. II.), however., would
give those Gentlemen thi, topic of consolation, that whattaer

iLeir
decision !night be;, tlie..Nohle Lord would. not cart;lns
tixteat into execution (bear, lkear-! and.a langle);the Nolole
Lund would nut go out, for
.this womki not •tee axe first in-

_ . . .
itaitce hi which ht. bad iirru kft ill a niiuurity.,Kftrr baring
o•ot promised •to go out,l,ut
.1:11ked of going our. It was iu

however, for him (Mr. B.) to say t hist in tikee of such .a
threat he hoped to carry his motion. The .geietletneti.who
had been addressed by the Noble Lurd wuttld no doubt, be.

terstmtled to reserve themselves till Frtduy, but e.vrry-ot►e of
hem must belirve that the prupositipu wnich the Nulde Lurd
ittend.ed to tiring forward on next Friday went lova tttdue•
ion of nixes, of he zntt,t hold hinrAelf tis the..enenty, and
he elticie.nt etittny, to the -retttetiun of tmation.—.7(.l-leur !,)
The Iluttse divttlett—

For tiw previous question . . . . •
Against et
. .

Al a j urity -iO4
Adjourned at ELEVEN

We puderstaAd that COAnuaissiosaer SKin4x,
late Cttairmau of the Viauallieg Board, has re-
fused ;he reOretnent of a Nag Officer, and in.
tends to #kilinii; WS. csoe to Pariiameut:--(P/N-
Tclegrapli.)