The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-15 00:00:00

pint, or on the third reading of the Bill. lie repeated that
he did not consider it would be necessary to have a sepa-
rate division upon every borough. He would be content
that one decision should affect all hot oughs in Schedule A,
which had a population confessedly under 2,000. For
instance, he would take the case of Blechingley, (as we
understood) and if a vott., of the House disfranchised Bitch-
ingly, he would be saisfied to consider that as extending
to all boroughs similarly situated. But fia all other
boroughs—that was to say, for all which could make out
i prima facie case that their respective populations were
above 2,ooo—there should be separate consideration.
Lord ALTHORP thought it would be better to observe
the usual course, and have this clause read over ; the Hon.
Genthman might then select some words whereon to
move an amendment or alteration, and in these meords such
Hon. Members as were of opinion there should be no dis-

franchisement, might take their stand.
Mr. BARING objected to this arrangement, upon the
ground that there were many Members who would not
vote altogether against all disfranchisement, but who would
yet oppose wholesale disfranchisement.
After a few observations touching the point of form,
from Sir R. INGLIS, Mr. J. CAMPBELL, and Mr. HunsoN

GURNEY,
Sir R. PEEL moved that the word " each" should be
omitted in the first clause.
[The passage alluded to by the Right lion. Gentleman
was, " That each of the boroughs enumerated in Sche-
dule A to this Act annexed, shall cease after the end of
this present Parliament to return any Member or Members
to serve in Palitment."]
Sir G. CLERK observed, that the embarrassments in
the Committee—in which, by the bye, the Al;nistry fully
shared—arose from the fact of there being no principle
affirmed in the clause. He suggested accordingly that the
Ministers should declare their principles and that this

should be embodied in the clause.
Lord ALTHORP again objected to having the case n,
each borough separately considered. As to the principle
of the clause, he had only to say, its principle and object
were to disfranchise nomination boroughs. Now these
were of two descriptions—the first, in which there was a
large population, though a small constituency, which
might he advantageously saved ; the second, in which there
was both a small constituency and a small population, and
these it was proposed to disfranchise, because it was not
deemed possible to rescue them from corrupt influence.
Mr. KNIGHT said he rose to observe, that the ques-
tion of his lion. and Learned Friend, the Member for
St. Hawes (Sir E. Sugden), remained unanswered by
any Alinister.—(Near, hear.) That question he described
to be, what is the test of fact which you propose to apply
to disfranchisement—for upon fact you pledge yourselves
to proceed—is it population or nomination ? Aye or no?
From the supporters of Government they had heard an-
swers alike at variance with each other and the principles
professed by the Noble Lord (Russell), and by the Noble
Lord who was understood to be the creator of the Bill, in
another place ; but the Ministers had remained silent.
Minister!, with an unlistening and pledged majority—
(Loud and continued cheering)—may with a safe and
silent scorn reject arguments which had been urged
against them ; but a time will come when the reasoning
people of this country will see if they were not worthy of
answering.—(Cheers.) The country would yet see whe-
ther the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for St.
,lawes (Sir Edward Sugden) was so very inapposite—so
replete with fallacies, as to occasion no other or no better
reply than that which it must doubtless be in the recol-
lection of the House was afforded it by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Windsor.—(Loud cheers.) Let, then, the
country know that the Government are either unable
or unwilling to compete with the arguments adduced
against their measures—(Cheers)—that they are un-
able to answer the propositions of law and morality
which have been brought before them—(Continued
cheers)—but that they have sat in silent scorn, relying
upon a majority who are ready and willing to carry for
them anything or everything.—(Continued cheering.) If
those on the Anti-Ministerial side had not come forward
to rid the Bill of some of its follies and fallacies, it would
have been sent up by acclamation to the other House in
its original shape—thus presenting as crude and prepos-
terous a piece of legislation us ever disgraced a Statesman.
—(Continued cheers.) He again adverted to the dif-
ference of opinion touching the principle of the Bill
evinced in the speeches of the Hon. Member for Ilchester,
a Noble Lord in another House, and the Noble Pay-
master and Chancellor of tho Exchequer, and then pro-
ceeded to remark, that although the Member for a borough
in schedule A, he did not, like the Hon. Nlernber fur
llchester, admit he was not a representative of the people.
On the contrary, he affirmed. he was ; that although
sitting for a so called rotten borough, he was returned by
as independent and enlightened a constituency as any
which could possibly exist under the Reform Bill. The
number of his voters at his election was 192, the whole
number entitled to vote was 390, and in their ranks they
embraced every class of the Commons. He was returned
by them because his sentiments and opinions were known
to coincide with theirs ; and were it otherwise, a place
which had been so frequently and fiercely contested,
and for which there had lately been a double return
never would have been induced by any power on earth to
return him. Before he sat down; lie wished to allude to
a subject to which the attention of the House had riot
been sufficiently drawn—he meant the accounts of the
assessed taxes. Those accounts showed that the borough
lcontributed to the
}h,eea r e
for es‘e,enatre d
uhtai(!e
abrueeunu
nprogressively increasing from
r i
revenue. The papers containing these accounts showed,
too, the inconsistencies of the present Bill. The borough
of Harwich was neither to be found in schedule A nor in
schedule B. Now these tax returns showed that the con-
tributions of both to the public revenue were nearly the
same. The borough of Peter-Add was in schedule A,
and the borough of Malmesbury in schedule B, and yes
the borough of Petersfield contributed lay one-third more
to the public revenue than did the borough of Malines.
bury, although the former was to be wholly disfranchised
and the latter was still to retain one Member. He thought
it his duty to state these facts—(Hear, hear, hear)—before
he sat down, as they sheaved the correctness of the argu-
ments of the Right lion. Member for Tamworth ; and
he wished, therefore, respectfully to impress on his Ma.
jesty's Ministers the necessity of informing the House on
what principles, whether of population or nomination,
they meant to proceed ; and if so, how the applicability
of those principles was to be tried and proved, as proved
he should wish them to be, in the case of the borough he
represented.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no difficulty whatever in an-
swering the question of the lion. and Learned Gentleman;
but he did feel a difficulty in being called on to give the
answer so many times.—(Hear.) That answer he had
declared at the very commencement of their going into
Committee. The test they took was population. When-
ever the population, according to the census of 1821,
amounted to 2,000, the borough was allowed to retain
one Member; but though this was their test, the object
of the test was to destroy nomination in every one of these
boroughs. That object they proposed to effect by the
two clauses now before the House. There were two excep-
tions to the rule he had laid down—one of these was to be
found in the borough of Downton, another in that of St.
Germains. lie would state, when those boroughs came
under the consideration of the House, why they were to
be made exceptions. He did not know why the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite charged them with caprice in
the test they bad adopted, or in the mode of their applying
it. The returns on which they founded their proceedings
were at first those that were found in the office of the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department. They had
afterwards endeavoured, on the suggestion of the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, to correct the errors of these re-
turns, and if they had not corrected them thoroughly it
was not because they were disposed to favour certain
individuals in preference to others, from the belief that
these individuals were favourable to the Govern-
ment ; yet such was the imputation thrown on them by
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite. They ought, perhaps, to
bear with these imputations, as the almost necessary Con-
sequence of undertaking the labours of an official life.--
(Hear, and a laugh.) He had not, however, been long
enough in office, and he had not been sufficiently brought
up to office, to accustom himself to hear with indifference
those remarks, which he could not but think somewhat
tended to affect the personal honour of those against
whom they were directed ; and who were thus accused ofattempting to carry through a grans] by
h the most
pettymea
the
speeches(Hea u
hear.)means.—(Hear,those T
roppuo-esreed accused ofutseerilu;u
anol
answering
particularly of not having answered the able speech of the
Hon. and Learned Member opposite. He asknowleigee 1 1
that he thought that speech was able ; but he must says
at the same time, that it had received most able and
complete answer in the speech of his Righta Hon. • d
the Member fur Windsor.—(Cheers.)
But
t i Friend
asserted, that they were generally incapable oft was
also
asserted, answer-ling,
their opponents, either on points of lawo
,lid not know, till this moment, that the or morality. ralitrit
wasl
lawful for Peers of the Realm to nominate 131esrnalb( ere for
boroughs.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Then, with respect to
the morality. Some of these boroughs boasted of their
independence. He knew nothing of s Bishop ' Castle.
They spoke of the " usual avenues" •by which
the representatives of the East and West Indian
interests found their way into that House. That
gentle and delicate phraseology rn.Ant, that a certain