The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-22 00:00:00

Right Hon. Friend, whom he hail so often heard say that
reduction of duty was ancillary to consumption. Would it
he nothing to give to the cottat;ers of this country the
luxury of sugar at a cheap rate? Would not this he an
advant ige ? and would it not also be an advantage, both to
the West. Indian proprietore zunl to the country, to take
Off those restrictions which prevented the consumption of
West Indian produce in this country? As to the appoint-
ment of a Committee, it would lead to no good result.
• Mr. C. GRANT said that nothing could have been
further from his intention than to impute to the Noble
Lard any factious or unworthy motive in bringing forward
this motion. He had merely said that it interfered with
the progress of important public business. As, however,
they bad heard from the highest authority that this (Nee-
tioft against the motion was not a valid one, he had no
hesitation in saying that he would vote for the motion of
the Noble Lord.—(hear, hear.)
Mr. P. THO3ISON denied that he had held out the
cry against slavery as a threat ; and he was in the recol-
lec•ion of the House that he bad deprecated the revival of

diet cry.
Mr. WARBURTON should take the earliest opportu-
nity of moving that the House should resolve itself into
Comini:tee upan the Acts prohibiting the growth of to-
bacco, with a view of devising a treasure respecting the
growth of rob wet) in Ireland.
Sir J. GRAHAM was sorry to say that he found him-
self utterly unable to adopt the course which his Right
Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Controul had
declare.' it to be his intention to follow. On the contiary,
lot begged to assure the House, that if he stood alone, it
was his firm determination to take the sense of the House,
on the proposition of the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)_
He had neither the power nor the disposition to contradict
the statement of the Noble Lord. He allowed that the
distress described by the Noble Lord existed to the full ex-
tent of that description ; and although from the bottom
of his heart he deplored it as much as any man could, yet
allow him to assure the Noble Lord, that it had not
escaped tile notice and consideration of the Government,
in the review which they had felt it their duty to take of
the state of the country and its colonies. So striking a
fact as the distress complained of by the Noble Lord, and
confirmed as it had been by PO many Hon. Gentlemen,
could not, he was sure the House would see, have passed
unnoticed by the Government. He was perfectly ready to
admit that the motion of the Noble Lord would not ob-
struct the Committee of Supply ; but he had made too
many of these motions himself not to know that it was
intended to be, and would he considered to be, in the na-
ture of a censure upon the Government.—(Hear, and
laughter.) Sure he was, that if the Government were
deleanel upon it, it would be understood to-morrow, out
of doors that the House had pissed a censure upon the
Minivry. Reverting, then to the immediate point under
discussion, the case stood thus :—The Government
had reviewed the whole condition of the country
and of its colonies. They had brought forward me.,
sures which, in their opinion, were best calculated to
afford all possible relief consistently with keeping up the
revenue to that point which was essential to the sufficiency
of the public service. In this review they had come to
the conclusion that to remit the duties on sea-borne coals
and candles would give the most du sirable relief to the
country at large. Now they had heard a great deal about
the necessity of supporting public credit, and in spite of
what had been said on this subject, allow hint to say that
there was no man more jealous of the public credit being
impaired than be was. If, however, gentlemen went en
supporting every proposition for the reduction of taxation,
they might talk as they would of the spotless honour of
the country—they might declaim as loudly as they pleased
against all infringements of public faith and public credit,
—but he there plainly declared that such a course was al-
together inconsistent with the maintenance of the public
faith and preservation of the national honour.—(Cheers.)
—This being admitted, and it was too self-evident to be
denied, the House had to judge whether, in the remission
of taxation. it was or was not the duty of Government to
take off the duty on coals and candles without loss of
time.—(Hear, hear.)—lf this question were decided in
the affirmative—if it were admitted that the public ser-
vice could not go on without a certain amount of revenue,
arid that in remitting taxes, the best taxes haul been
taken cif, the only remaining question was, whether
the House would or would not support the Govern-
ment.—(Loud
cheers.)—He repeated, that he did not
negative the fact of the distress complained of, and if the
Ministry remained in office, they would do their best to
relieve it. Their earliest attention should be directed to it.
At this juncture, however, and at this moment, it was
utterly impossible that the Revenue could admit of the re-
mission of the sugar ditties : and he would not, therefore,
hold forth the delusive expectation that the relief desired
could be granted in this session of Parli invent. He would
not detain the House any further. These were the cir-
cumstances of the case; and the question for the House to
decide upon was this—whether the conduct of Government
was such as to deserve their support and the confidence of
the country. He did not hold it out as a threat, but he
begged to assure the House that he spoke the sense of his
cslleagues, when he said that they would not continue in
office one moment after that House bad decided not to give
them their support, and the country had withdrawn its
confidence from them. He felt that he was most painfully
situated in being compelled to differ from his Right lion.
Friend the President of the Board of Control ; but he had
higher duties to fulfil than those of friendship, and be threw
himself fearlessly on the House for that support which he
had always found straightforward conduct to receive there.
—(Cheers.) He might have argued this question feebly,
but be was quite sure that he had stated it honestly.
Sir R. PEEL was bound to look to higher considera-
tions than those which the resignation of a Ministry in-
volved, however he might feel toward, that Ministry.
The interest of his country should alone sway Mtn. He
could not help expressing his deep regret that the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Thomson) should have
thought it necessary to have introduced a question so in-
flammatory as the slave question upon a matter which was
purely fiscal and financial. He did not think that such a
question as that should be mixed up with a financial
question of this description : at the same time he would
take leave to say, that they might depend upon it that the
condition of the slaves, both morally and physically, would
be improved by improving ti e condition of the West India
planters.—( Hear, hear. )—The true way to promote the
interests and add to the comfort of the slaves, was first
by rest-icing prosperity to the West India islands. With
re-aid to this motion, he (Sir R Peel) was placed in this
difficulty—if he should vote for the resolution of the
Noble Lord in the present state of the budget, he might
be encouraging the expectation that some fiscal reduction
would be made for the relief of the West Indian interests,
which, hereafter, it would be found impossible to effect;
and he therefore would recommend the Noble Lord to
withdraw his motion. The Noble Lord opposite (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had pledged himself to
take off the coal duty and the candle duty; and he
(Sir R. Peel) had not as yet heard a satisfactory ex-
planation as to the quarter upon Which the new
taxes were to be imposed, or in what manner the
deficiency they occasioned was to be supplied. In
such a state of things, he must advert to the paramount
necessity which existed, in the present times, for main-
taining the public credit inviolate.—(Hear.) And, im-
pressed as he was strongly with that necessity, he could
not pledge himself to remove any portion of the revenue
until he saw a certainty of its place being supplied. Upan
that single ground he should find it impossible to vote for
the motion of his Noble Friend, and he therefore hoped
that his Noble Friend would nut put the resolutions to a
vote that night, but that he would ccasent to withdraw
his motion. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had spoken last, that they should above all
things take care to maintain the public credit—(Hear,
hear)—and he only wished that the public faith had had
so able an auxiliary when a tax upon the funds was pro-
posed, and when upon another occasion an equitable ad-
justment was spoken of.-...-(Cheers ) He was glad to hear
such sentiments from the Right Hon. Baronet : he
was delighted to hear him insist upon the paramount
necessity of maintaining the public credit ; and it was
upon the single ground of the public credit that he (Sir
i
Robert Peel) was ndisposed to entertain this motion
at present. It was not with reference to the state of
parties, or to political considerations, but solely in re-
ference to the public credit, that he would not give
his vote for the 'notion, and he trusted, therefore, that
his Noble Friend would not persevere with it. With
regard to the offer of the Committee, which haul been
made by the Noble Lord opposite, he (Sir It. Peel) did
not think that a select Committee upon the West India
trade would do any good. At the same time be would
say that there was no direct tax upon the comforts of the
poor which it would be more desirable to reduce, if it
were possible to do so, than the duty upon sugar. The
Right Hon. Baronet opposite had said that his Majesty's
Ministers were determined to take their stand upon this
motion to-night, and that if they went to a division, the
vote should decide the fate of the ministry. if be (Sir
Robert Peel) could consider it in that light, and if be had
no other objection to their coming to a vote upon this
motion, that alone would to him constitute a sufficient
one. Feeling that there would he danger in the present
state of the public revenue, and in the present state of the
budget, to agree to the proposed resolutions, and thus
pledge the Government to reductions which it might not
be possible hereafter to etlect, he should sit down with re-

peating, his request to Ws Noble Friend to withdraw hie
motion.

Mr. SYKES expressed his concurrence with the Right
Hon. Baronet who had just 'eat down, as to the propriety
of the N:hle Lord's withdrawing the present motion:
Mr iIuNT thought that the duty in question was
.so
trifling- that there could beam possible danger of commit...,
tins; a breach of public faith by giving it up. He was of
opinion that this wa, a•fair subject for inquiry. He was
ready to return his cordial thanks to the Noble Lord oppo-
site (the Chancellor of the Exchequer!, for the reductions
which he had already made. The Noble Lord had re li
-
duced the duties on cols, candles, and newspapers, and
had thus given us light, heat, and knowledge at a cheaper
rate. The reduction, however, in the expenditure of tire
country must go much further than was proposed. The
present motion was of so indefinite a character, that he
(Mr. Hunt) and those of his friends on that side of the
llouse who represented and supported liberal principles,
were determined to vote with his Majesty's Ministers, if
the motion should go to a, division, and principally because
they were so near the Ist of March.—(A laugh, and cries
of " Hear, hear.") If they were not so near the lst of
March, be should have found it difficult to decide as to
his vote Qrl this occasion.

The Marquis of CLIANDOS seeing th're was such a
of or inion amongst his Majesty's Ministers en
this subject, and more particularly as his object had been
in a gre,it degree gained by the discussion which had
taken place, should withdraw his motion for the present,
pledging himself to follow it up upon a future occasion
by another motion, whin he hoped that more unanimity
n•ould exist amongst his Majesty's Ministers on this
question.
The motion wa, then withdrawn.
SUPPLY OF ARMS TO FRANCE.

The Order of the 1) y was then read, and on the motion
that the !louse should go into Committee of Supply,
An lI6N. MEMBER wished to put a question to the
Noble Lord opposite : he wished to know whether the
statement which hid appeared in the public papers was
correct—namely, that a considerable quantity of arms had
been issued from his Majesty's stores in the Tower of Lon-
don, destined for the use of the Government of France?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said. that
the facts of the case were simply these. A contract had
been entered into by the manufacturers of Birmingham to
supply the Frenelt Government with a certain quantity of
arms. The manufacturers applied to his Majesty's Go-
vernment for permission to take a certain quantity of arms
out of his Majesty's stores, to meet their contract,
e❑gaging to supply their place, and at the same time
stating that by being allowed to do so they would be
enabled to give V.'ork to a large number of persons who
were out of employment in Birmingham. The supply
was provided, and the manufacturers had now made an-
other demand for a larger quantity of arms, which was at
present under the consideration of his Majesty's Govern-
ment.

Sir G. WARRENDER inquired whether the contract
had been made with the present Board of Ordmmee ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
in the negative.
Sir G. CLERK said that before they went into Com-
mittee of Supply upon the army estimates, he was anxious
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should make that
statement which he had omitted to make in his st itement
on the Budget—namely, as to the amount of the several
estimates for the various services for the present year. He
was of opinion that, instead of having so small a ►urplus
as the Noble Lord propoaed to have, he should en 'eavour,
if pos,ible, to increase the surplus of his predecessor.

The CLIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could nit
well ttio:wer the question just now, as lie could not refer
t the figures which would enable him to do so. He had
stated, in opening his financial statement, the full amount
of the estimates for the current ye4r, as nearly as it was
possible to do so. He had stated that amount at
46,950,000/. He would now repeat that that was the
estimate, within a few hundred pounds, of the total ex-
penditure for the year. He was ready to admit that one
way in which r, duction had been made was in the reduc-
tion of the 4i per Cents., which was a measure or the
10 mer Government. He Was also bound to give credit to
his nredecessor for the surplus which would accrue from
the reductkm of the duty on beer, in consequence of the
increased con•utnption of malt. He (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) was satisfied that the result of the re-
ductions of taxes which he had proposed would be an in-
crease to the revenue.

Air. GOULBUItN much douldcd, when those estimates
came under consideration, whether the Noble Lord would
be aide to effect any of the reductions which he proposed

o mike.

Mr. BRISCOE understood that it was intended to pro-
pose au increase to the army. He wished to know how
that tallied with the principle of non-intervention avowed
by the Government ? It was his opinion that the con-
stabulary force, the yeomanry, and the militia, were the
legal, proper, and constitutional auxiliaries of the Govern-
ment, and he saw no necessity for increasing the army.
He would ask, how' could they reduce the taxes without
reducing the expenditure?
The House then went into committee.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into Committee of
Supply,
31r. C. cv. WYNN rose to move the first resolution, in
doing which, and in bringing under the ':onsidrration the
army estimates for the present year, he could not help re-
gretting that in doing that, for the first time, he should find
himself under the necessity of proposing an increase instead
ofa diminution. That increase, however, was not founded
upon any opinion on the part of his Majesty's Government
that an armed intervention would be necessary. But when
he looked at the state of England at the time the Govern-
ment were .1 on to determine the amount of men
for
th'elieservice of the current year, and also when
re-
quisite
he looked at the state of Ireland, he could not but think
that the House would agree with him, that the proposed in-
crease did not exceed what the necessity of the country
required. He was sure the House would see that when the
present Ministers were called to the direction of affairs they
were bound to take every possible precaution for the pro-
tection of the loyal and well-disposed portion of the com-
munity. He felt that he should not discharge his duty to
the House nor to his col eaaues, if he did not, in the first
ho was bound to say, to the excellent ar-
td,vtehai,t,etrleleaspedrolp)oastert(lma,ugge-,
Friend near him, when
instance,
°l:Saeencnigrnteegatntaiiierio'ynna tianditPlilAyttli;Ta r, by which facilities were afforded for the
increasing the number of recruits by lowering the stan-
dard. It had been suggested that a better mode would be
to embody the veteran battalions. On the most mature
consideration, they (the Ministers) arrived at the conclu-
sion that not only the veteran battalions would be less effi-
cient, but eventually more expensive. It would be recol-
lected, also, that most of the veteran battalimis were re-
cruited under Mr. Wynilhatn's Act; that they would,
therefore, be entitled to increased pensions for every month
they served. It was also to he recollected that the half-
pay list would be matorially affected by carrying such a
project into eff.Tt, say nothing of the inconveniences
)which would be attendant upon the number of wives and
chilthen belonging to the veterans. LAfter this the Right
Hon. Gentleman so frequently dripped his voice, that it
I)observations,toe
directedt 11
e e
e t aolu) lres,e (n) f d
uh tist e e 4 ia a n
almost inaudible.] He was understood to say that the
as
proposed measure was to take place by the addition of men
ei ne io
hse.yi tr o e follow
across the
to the companies, which might at any time be reduced. As
to the precise matter then to be brought under the conside •
ration of the Committee, it would be confined to the first
eight the ninth, as we understood him, relating
solely votes,theto lndian army. The increased expense on the
first eight votes was 199,9661:—there was an apparent ex-
pense of '210,0001.; but deductions which were to be made
from that, left it the sum he had mentioned. With respect
to the volunteer and yeomanry force, he certainly was not
prepared to recommend its abolition, not that it had often
been found particularly useful for the purpose of putting
down disturbances, but that the knowledge that such a
force was at the disposal of the persons of property and
consideration, had the effect of preventing and checking a
disposition to riot. There would be then an expense of
136,0001. for the additional land forces, and nearly
72,000/. for the volunteer and yeomanry corps; but it was
to be observed that this was not to be an annual expense ;
and as for the sum of 50,000/., stated in the estimates,
they would (as we understood him) be spread over a pe-
riod of three years, in the shape of allowances. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to compliment the late
Secretary at War (Sir 11. Ilardinge), upon the beneficial
alterations he had introduced, upon which it would be the
less necessary for him to enter, ae his Right lion. Friend,
the. First Lord of the Admiralty, had said all that the oc-
casion required. He concluded by moving, " That it is
the opinion of the Committee, that the laud forces for the
service of the United Kingdom, for the year ensuing, be
88,1.96 men, exclusive of the regiments employed on the
territory of the East India Company."
Colonel DAVIES wished rather that a grant for three
months
he Committee.take❑ o n
li
He
,u
nadnedrs
ttoh6ei
thestimates„tany reofeproV
tit,ojeolnpa
Selectoetx that zgtuhri eis wsi,urlpdrisbee
aotp it;o1
that,
‘;‘,
laieund e
he rcecoouilliel
enteottl
that a similar motion last year had the support of the
gentlemen now occupying the Treasury Bench. In look
mg at these estimates, be would begin with the year 1821,

which might be called the annul tnerabilis of these
matters. In that year• the N, b'e Lard had been chained
to his seat by the observations on the opposition site of
the House, being peeked at by the vultures there like
ri.nother Prometheus. In that' year t7,e number of troops
was 81.1fiti, Co that th • present min:tier was an increase

upon that, of 6;936 ; the charge was about three
Millions, by which it would tke the increase of the
charge now amounted to 119,000/. : zind yet that estimate
was denounced at the time as the most wicked and
abominab!e that had ever been heard o". In the year 1822
the Number of troops were 171,000, being a diminution
of 16,500 whoa compared with the present year, while
the charge at present was 536,000/. more than it had
heen then. He would, however, now come to the pre,ew
year, in which, though he gave the Ministry some
credit for the decrease, he must give them gib greater
credit for the increase; for it appeared that the total in-
crease Night, in round numbers, be estinnted at 200,0001.

In the first place, he must object most strenuously to the
e,tablishment of the depot company as now instituted, for
he thom;ht that great reduction might he made in it 7.lth-
out imp tiring a single iota cf the service. The c'aarge
under tit:it head was nearly 400,0001. Now Low did
this arise? It WaS exputheut that the, supernumeraries

and staff, as cwopared with the rank and file, should be
e small as possible. But in this estahlishinent the con-
trary was exactly the case, for the amount of the super-
numeraries and staff was exactly double what it need he.
The total amount of the commissioned and non-commis-
sinned officers was upwards of 11,000, while, in fact, they
were wholly unfit for anythins but to act as a constabu-
lary force, established in the Isle of Wight and other
Maces, where they were utterly useless. Besides this,
the system might be called a modern invention, for,
till after the war, no such thing had been heard of.
There had been recruitiug parties indeed ; but the
charge on recruiting had increased in spite of the
depots ; 105,342/. as as the total charge of the recruiting
service this year ; and the charge of the depots wss
450,000/. ; so that thecountry had to pay 550,000/. for the
mere expence of recruiting ; and taking it that 10,000
men were raised iu the year, that would lie a charge of
55/. per man. Was not then this a fit subject for inves-
tigation by a Committee? He thought so, and he had no
doubt that on this point alone there might be effected a
reduction of 300,000/. or 400,0001. Another point to
which he wished to call the attention of the Committee
vas the garrisoning of the troops. In his opinion co-
lonial troops ought to be raised in the colonies where they
were to serve, instead of sending the men out there; the
consequence of the present system was, that there were
frequently 3,000 troops at sea, during which time, of
course, they were performing no service whatever. The
principle in this country appeared to he, as soon as we got
po-session of a colony, to see how many jobs we could
make of it, while the object of other countries was to
make their colonies support themselves. The fact was,we
gave too much salary in these cases. While a salary of 2 or
3,000/. a year was quite enough for a Governor, and.
many efficient officers would be glad to eml,race such
terms, a much larger amount was unnessarily given.
The Governor of Ceylon had been receiving 10,000/. a
year for salary, besides an allowance of 3,500/. a year on
,mother score. Let them compare the expense of the
British army with that of foreign armies, and the Com-
mittee would be astonished. The charge of our army and
ordnance amounted to six millions (exclusive of the dead
weight), for which sum 94,000 or 96,000 men were sup-
ported. The French army, under the Bourbons, which,
by the speech of Al. Lafitte, appeared now to be considered
as on much too expensive a scale, consisted of 250,000
men, who were supported at an expen-e of 5,200,000/. ;
and in Prussia, where the whole revenue of the country
did not amount to eight millions, an army of 180,000
men was supported. There was one principle which in
his opinion might, be adopted, by which a great saving
would be effected. lie meant by the adoption of some
sort of yeomanry arrangement—not a National Guard, that
should appoint its own officers and employ its time in pre-
senting petitions to the King—but a corps that should have
its officers appointed by the Crown, and whose whole move-
tnentsshould he under the influence of the Crown. It was by
arming those who bad property, and regarded the institu-
tions of the country, against those who had no property,
and had no regard for those institutions, that true security
would be procured. The present distress of the country
was undeniable ; and though he should be sorry to do any
thing hostih to the present Government, no personal
feeling could allow him to vote what was uncalled fog by
the country, and he must, therefore, refuse the sanction of
so humble a name as his own to such a measure. He

could assure the Government that any proposition of Re-
form would bean act of self-immolation, unless they were
prepared to alter their courss in this respsct; for it would
la, impossible, under that Re!Orm, for any Ministry to hold
office for two months, unless they could make up their
minds to real economy and retrenchment. He should,
therefore, move, as an amendment, that the supply for the
army should only be voted from the Ist of January to the
Ist of April, in order that a Committee might be ap-
pointed to inquire into the expenditure.
Mr. BEAUMONT (as we understood) thought that it
was of no use for the Hon. and Gallant Member to say
that he wished to see the country in a better condition if
he would not help to place it there. The Hon. and Gal-
lant Member had asked what these was in the state of the
country now which called for additions] troops ; but he
need not look fir an answer, for there was an Hon. and
Learned Gentleman sitting near him, who had said that
if he raised his right hand, he could put the people in a
state of rebellion.—(A murmur in the House, during
which Mr. O'Connell made some observations which did
not reach the gallery.)—lf he had used too strong an ex-
pression he was sorry for it ; but the Hen and Learned
Member had been told before then that his speeches,
which began with peace, ended with sedition. That was
his (Mr. Beaumont's) opinion also, and that was one of
the reasons why the Army Estimates were what they
were. It was not long since the Special Commissions
had terminated ; and the state of France and of Russia
still called for the most serious attention, so that he could
not understand why the Hon. and Gallant Member
should have been at a loss for the motives that hail in-
duced the Government to increase the number of troops.
Mr. O'CONNELL would not have trespassed on the
time of the Committee, had it not been for the extraordi-
nary attack in the extraordinary speech which they had just
heard. The Hon. Gentleman had commenced with an
attack on the Gallant Officer who had preceded him, and
had then proceeded to show his perfect knowledge of the
state of the country; after which he had bestowed his
meed of disapprobation on him (Mr. O'Connell.) He,
however, begged to invite the Hon. Gentleman to continue
that disapprobation, for, after the specimen he had given
of his judgment and intellect, he thought that that must
be much preferable to his applause.—(Hear.)—The Hon.
Gentleman had said that the state of Ireland required an
augmentation of the army—that the state of England re-
quired an augmentation—that the state of France reqnired
an augmentation—and that, above all, the state of Russia
required an augmentation of the army. And, after
all this, the number raised wax to 7,000, to fight
Russia, France, England, and Ireland, Never had any
mountain been so completely in labour to produce a mouse,
as this army of the Hon. Gentleman of 7,000 men, who,
he supposed, were to march to Brentford and back again.
But the Hon. Gentleman had also been pleased to attribute
to him what he called the rebellion in Ireland. There
was no language consistent with the rules of that House
sufficiently strong to repudiate the foul calumny, which
was as atrocious as had ever been uttered by any man.
The Hon. Gentleman might talk of peace, but he (Mr.
O'Connell) practised it.—(Laughter, and hear.)—He
knew that would get a ready cheer. He belonged to the
most wretched and miserable country in the world ; and
it had been said in another place, that famine must visit it
periodically. But was it the hand of Providence that had
(hied it up, and made it barren ? No, it was the most
fertile of lands, and only owed its present condition to the
misery that had been imposed upon it. Had the Hon.
Gentleman thought proper to show any approaches to re-
bellion, it would have been easy to throw it aside ; but
amid the idle tissue in which the charge had been pre-
sented, he would only meet it with a positive—he would
not say with a contemptuous—denial. If his speeches
had inculcated sedition, why had he not been
prosecuted? But he supposed they had forborne through
kindness—through favour towards him. He could ta
the House, that he had spoken no speech without two Go•
vernment short-hand writers being present to take down
what he said, and for those gentlemen he bad procured
accommodation ; and he therefore contradicted in the most
distinct way, the justice of the charge that had been wade
against him. And yet the charge had been made. Per-
haps it had been done for the sake of courting a little po-
pularity; for when any Hon. Member found himself
astray, he was sure to find a clap-trap in making an at-
tack upon him.—( A cry of No, no.") This was the
second time that such an attack had been made that even-
ing. Those who did not choose to assail any other, a!-
sailed him.—(A cry of " No, no.")—No ! Had he said
a single word till he had been assailed—and was not that
the second time that he had been attacked that evening ?
lie would, however, pass it over with the single remark,
that if any one exceeded him in love for his country, or
was more desirous of seeing its grievances corrected, be
would consent to that man being his calumniator and de-
crier ; and, at all events, whether he (Mr. O'Connell)
tailed or succeeded in his efforts, he should have the con-

eiation of knowing that such attacks u these were ye-
evied by him, and passed Over without notice.
Mr. BEAUMONT (as we understood) explained. He
should pass over what had fallen from the Hon. and
Learned Member for Waterford, as be was sure that it
,leed• d no answer. •
Colonel SIBTHORPE thought that instead of carrying
on the recruiting system, it would be better if use was
made of the pensioners that were fit for active servic,!.
lie understood that there were ;flout 18,000 who might
Ue employed in that way.
Lord ALTHORPE said, that with respect to the argu-
ments of the Gallant Colonel opposite, he must say that
e Government were not justly chargeable with incon-
sistency in having raised the number of troops at the
present moment. On the contrary, it would have been
inconsistent in them if they had, at this time, acted up to
those rules which under other circumstances had their
4upport.—(Hear.)—lt was necessary—he regretted it—
but it was necessary that there should be an increase in the
military force of this country. He appealed to the House
whether his Right Hon. Friend, who had just come into
office, ought to have acted on his own suggestion? All
he could say was, that the strictest inquiry should be made
zit° the subject, and that the Goverum.oit would en-
leavour to reduce every thing that was useless.—(Hear,
respect to the appointment of a Com-
mittee of that House, he must remind the House that
.e had never been art advocate for referring estimates of
Iris kind to a Committee of that House. It was a incyde
of examining the estimates that he never thought was at-
tended with advantage to the public. The Gallant Officer
had p:oposed that the vote should only be taken for a short
space of time; but he confessed that be did not see the
advantage of that proposition, end he did not think that
its advantages had been made very manifest to the
House. The mode of increasing the army which be had
adopted was that of filling up the regiments to the limit
of their establishment. It had been stated that the em-
ployment of the army pensioners would have been a
cheaper mode of effecting the same object; but as these
persons would then have additional claims to pensions,
•he expence would ultimately, even in that respect, be
grea'er than that which was now incurred. Besides
which, had that mode been adapted, an increased number
of officers must then have been appointed, and in addition
t r them would have been the expence of the families of
the pensioners. He must say that the proposition which
went to refuse them the vote for the whole year in the
usual manner, manifested, notwithstandingewhat the Gal-
lant Colonel had said, a great want of confidence in the
Government. He trusted that the house would not be
actuated by that feeling, but would give the vote as it was
asked.—(Hear, Lear.)
Sir H. HARDINGE said he approved very much both
of the amount of the force now demanded•by the Govern-
ment, and the mode in which the proposed increase was
to he made. He thought the plan of fiiling up the regi-
ments was the best that could be adopted. The number
of men when this measure had been curie(' into effect,
would not exceed 75,000, or in round numbei.s. he might
state it at SO 000. That was, in fact, only the peace
establishment that was voted on a former occasion. Time
establishment of the yeomanry force, a most cheap and con-
stitutional force, was a measure that, in his op:nion, did the
Government great credit. He saw in theestimates an item of
133,0001. for the expence of the yeomanry. He should
be glad to know the amount of force that was to he tiro-
vid. fl at that sum ? He asked the question, because there
was a report afloat that 20,000 yeomanry were to be pro-
vided in Ireland ; and he wished to know whether that
corps was to be included in the 75,000 ? If it was not,
Ile believed the estimate would be found deficient to the
amount of 20,000/. in the intended provision. He would
now refer to another part of the estimates. The late
Government had often been reproached with the exces-
sive expence of the Staff, and he had therefore expected
to see in the present estimates a considerable reduction io
that respect. However, on carefully examining the esti-
mates, he found that with the exception of two offices, to
which he should presently allude, there was no reduction
whatever on the Staff establishment. 'I ose officers were
the Treasurer of the Military Asylum, and the Treasurer
of the Military College. Now, with respect to the first
of these, he did not think the Noble Lied had edopted a
wise course in putting down that office; for the Treasurer
was a person whose office was not one of patronage, but
who had most important deities to perform in the payment
of soldiers' orphans, and in the purchase and sale of the funds
destined for their support. These duties had been well
performed by Messrs. Cox and Greenwood, who had re-
ceived a very moderate sum as a recompence for their
trouble. They received a-sum of about 300/., or rather
more than one per cent. on the money that passed through
their hands. Those duties must be performed by some

other person, who, of course, woul:1 require payment
liar his trouble. Th, Treasurer of the Military Co -
ltee was the other officer whose office bad been abo-
lished. His duties were of a somewhat similar nature.
There had once been a Paymaster of the Military College,
but his office had been abolisl,ed, and the duties which
he hid performed were transferred to the treasurer.
The office of treasurer was fired by those very respectable

army agents, the Messrs. Collier, and their office, he could
boldly assert, was not one of patronage. They had re-
ceived the stun of 3001. a year, being about one per cent.
on the money that had passed through their hands, but
that money not now being so much as formerly, their pay-
ment had recently been reduced to 2001. a year. He
should lik to ask the Noble Lord whether he could get
own private afftirs transacted for a less sum?—(Hear)
—and when they recollected the responsibility of the per-
sons to whom the public money was thus entrusted, as
well as the labour those persons performed, he believed he
might safely assert that no private gentleman could get his
business transacted at a cheaper rate. He repeated, that
there had been no reductions on the staff but these; and
he might now safely appeal to the Right Hon. Secretat y at
War to know whether he, even with the aid of that most
intelligent officer, the Deputy Secretary at War, had been
able to find out those abuses of which so much had been

formerly said ? He thought the Right Hon. Secre-
tary had not been able to find out these abuses, or at
all events, the reductions on the staff had not been sucb
as might have been expected after the censures that
had so often been passed on those establishments.
He, however, congratulated the Government on their
not having made any tfforts to accomplish a
crude retrenchment. He concurred with the Noble Lord
as to the propriety of the increase of the number of men,
and of the mode adopted in carrying that increase into
effect. The increase amounted to 6,800 omen, and there
was no doubt that the Government had the best meana
of knowing the ground of that increase, and would. at a
proper time, and on a proper occasion, explain it. There
were sufficient- causes in the state of this country for the
increase of the army, without seeking fur them elsewhere.
At the same time it must be admitted that there were grave
and important considerations connected with the state of
things abroad.—(Bear, hear.) The G Want Colonel, the
Member for Worcester, had referred to the speech of the
French Minister of Finincet. He (Sir 11. Haringe)
should be glad to notice that speech, though not at the
present moment to ask for explanations which, doubtless,
the Government would be well prepare d to givc. He
could not help referring to time Budget of the French
Minister in which the estimate for the year amounted
to forty-seven millions, and of that suns nine millions
were required for the arria—an army stated to
amount to 434,000 men, and.. 16,000 horse. When the
House considered these numbers they would agree with
him that France must look almost like a camp. No
doubt the Government could give full explanations upon
the subject of this immense army, when the proper time
came for them to do it. With respect to our own small
army, he was prepared to say that it never was in a
;letter state of discipline thin at the present moment. Ile
hoped the time was far distant when that army would be
called on to show that it was still capabie of doing that
which in former periods hail won glory for this country,
and the respect of Europe for the valour of her sons ; but
ha was sure, that if the time ever should arrive, they would
prove themselves worthy of their former fame. How-
ever, he trusted most sincerely that peace would he main-
tained, if it could be maintained consistently with the na-
tional honour and the safety of the country.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. RICE said, the Committee ought not to rea-
son on the estimates now in the same manner that they
would have done had the times been different. With re-
spect to the two offices which had been abolished, he
wished to say„ that many of the duties which were put
forward in defence of their continuance were those that
might easily be performed by an ordinaty el,rk ; and,
under these circumstances, the Government had the right
if necessary, to abolish them.
Sir H. HARDINGE and Mr. RICE mutually explained.
Mr. STANLEY said that his Hon. Friend had i:ppeared
in the unusual character of a Member of the Government,
rising in his place in that House to defend a m eduction of
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was his business to ex-
plain the grounds of the addition of about 50,0001. for
clothing the Irish yeomanry, a vote that V. mild hereafter
be brought forward, but which he would take th,s oppor-
'unity of justifying. And here be might safely appeal to
the Right tfon Gentleman (Sir H Hardinge) whether,
when he left office, the state of Ireland was not such as
:o require a measure of precaution oh the kind, to, the
purpose of securing her tranquillity ?—(flear,
The first step of the new Ministry had teento :
the const.tuted force known by the name of the y y