The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-06 00:00:00

his (the Lord Chancellor's) absence, had he not known
how perilous any delay would b 3 at the present period
of the session.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed the great
satisfaction he fit at hearing from his Noble and
Learned Friend that he thought himself justified in in-
troducing such alterations into the Bill as did net affect
its spirit—[Lord BROUGHAM—" Its principle"]—altera-
tions which had insured the support of his Noble and
Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor, anl of the best and
most learned authorities in that House. So amended and
so altered as he had no doubt the Bill would be, he felt,
with his Noble and Learned Friend opposite, that it was
of the utmost importance that it should advance without
any delay, and should become the law of the land before
the end of the present session. Dry as the details of the
Bill might be, they involved considerations of a most
popular character, invoking as they did the most inti-
mate relations of society, into which they would intro-
duce the most sound and practical amendments. For,
when he was toll that no means now existed for sepa-
rating the honest from the fraudulent debtor, who was
praying on the resources of the community and making
bad debts every year to the amount of 49,000,0001. —an
amount sufficient to shipwreck the fortunes of any other
country, and attended with a salvage which did not ex-
ceed a fourth or fifth part of that large sum—he could
not but feel that an attempt to remedy such a state of
things, founded as it was on the experience of various
bodies of men from all parts of the country, all uniting in
approbation of it, was an ohjcct of the highest public im-
portance to the country. It was also a matter of the
highest social importance ; and one of the provisions of
this Bill, which he viewed with the highest approbation,
was that iu which a mode was prescribed for separating
debtors into three cl isses—the virtuous debtor, whose
bankruptcy arose from unavoidable losses and misfortunes;
the unfortunate debtor, whose conduct was, neverthe-
less, satisfactory ; and the spendthrift, the outcast, the
speculating, and the fraudulent debtor, whose conduct
svas not satisfactory. and whose bankruptcy did not arise
from unavoidable misfortunes. The Commissioners were
hereafter to distinguish in their certificates the bankrupts
who were not to blame for their misfortunes—those who
were unable to meet their engagements, but whose con-
duct was nut blameworthy—and those who preyed on
the interests of society, and sacrificed individuals, and
even bodies of men, to their own dishonest and nefarious
projects. Such a change in the law would work a bene-
ficial effect in the constitution of society itself. Consi-
dering, therefore, that the machinery of of this Bill, ap-
proved as it had been by his Noble and Learned Friend
who generally sat on the Woolsack, was a machinery
which would be attended not only with economy in its
own administration, but also with a larger economy to
those individuals who were to be benefited and saved by
its operation—considering also that it would be subject
hereafter to any improvements which experience might
suggest, he did hope that it would be received as a boon
of great value by the commercial interest; and, hoping
so, he trusted that the House would pass it through all
its stages with as much speed as possible. He gave his
entire concurrence to the Bill, and thought his Noble
and Learned Friend entitled to public gratitude for the
laborious attention which he had bestowed upon it.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE heard with great satisfac-
tion the statement of the Noble Marquis in reference to
the Bill before the House, and he hoped the Govern-
ment would give the measure its support in its passage
through the other House of Parliament. One of the
advantages of this Bill was, that it would effect a saving
of 12 0001. a year in the machinery connected with.
bankruptcy.
Lord CAMPBELL would only say, that both in form
and substance, this Bill was a great improvement upon
the existing law last sessisn, and he had no doubt but it
would effect great good.
Lord BROUGHAM said he bad, in the former draft
of the Bill, given to the Commissioners the power of im-
prisonment for a year. He had, however, at the sug•
gestion of Noble Lords, taken away this power. He did
so, and chiefly on the ground that the committal of the
bankrupt would arise from his own statement. The
Commissioners would still have the power to refuse the
bankrupt protection, in the event of his conduct meriting
this exercise of the Judge's power. The creditors would
then be enabled to deal with him, and thus justice
would be obtained. _

The Bill was then recommitted, and the report re.
ceived.

INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the fncumbered
Estates (Ireland) Bill was read a first time, and was
ordered to be read a second time on Monday next.
CANADA.

Lord BROUGHAM wished to know whether the
Noble Earl (Grey) had r( ceived any report of the Go-
vernment of Canada having cut down the classes of
claimants for losses, during the rebellion in that colony,
to two—namely, those who had been convicted, and
those who had been imprisoned, at the period of the re-
bellion in question,
Earl GREY said his information on the subject re-
ferred to was received from a source which was equally
open to the Noble and Learned Lord, namely the news-
papers. He must decline giving any other answer than
this to the question put by the Noble and Learned Lord.
Lord BROUGHAM—Did Lord Elgin send any dis-
patches home on the subject?
Earl GREY—Lord Elgin sent home somo news-
papers containing the debates in the House of Assembly,
on the subject, and to these debates he (Earl Grey) was
referred.

DENMARK AND PRUSSIA.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply to Lord
Brougham, said be had every reason to hope that
the hostilities which had occurred between Denmark
and Prussia, would terminate in an amicable manner,
and he assured the Noble Lord that this country was
most anxious, for the peace of the countries referred to,
and for the benefit of the commerce of the world, that
this settlement should take place at the earliest possible
moment.

LEASEHOLD TENURE OF LANDS (IRELAND:

BILL.

LorJ CAMPBELL moved that the report on the
Leasehold Tenure of Lands (Ireland) Bill be received.
The Earl of LUCAN objected to the Bill, End moved
that it be recommitted to a Select Committee. If he did
not succeed in this, he would move to exclude its appli-
cation to all leases with special covenants; and if he did
not succeed in this he would then object to the Bill ap-
plying to property in towns.
Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill was brought in
on the 2d of April; it was not read a second time
until the 26th of April, and it was not committed until
the 25th of May. The report was to have come before
their Lordships last evening. This was a proof that the
Bill had not been hurried through the House. His Noble
Friend the Lord Chancell,r had paid great attention
to the Bill. He thought the Bill was all right, and ought
to he adopted, and if his Noble Friend was present he
would say the same thing, notwithstanding the Noble
Earl (Lord Lucan) stood up and moved that it should be
referred to a Select Committee. The Noble Earl com •
plained that the Bill was compulsory, but if it was not so
it would be useless. That was, in fact, the great merit
of the measure. The Bill had been very generally ap-
proved of, and he had himself received various applica-
tions from different quarters to press it forward. Ile
therefore called upon their Lordships to negative the
motion.

Iltohlimo(istNehthTet
eesEenhuAtorelGendsuLe
arrEenos scaaloinlpdeyfaathshceotei,odr
ieftelsw;v.aaaetssse:nn.rooetan
eaesimilarity
ntr,
betweend
however, that a temporary measure would be attended
with great advantage. There was no inconvenience
between landlord and tenant; but between landlord and
landlord;arsiarising
fr
ever, was a quasi landlord, and the rent re-
served to the original landlord was in the
character of an annuity overriding the Lnd.
He did not think any pecuniary compensation
could satisfy the landlord for the inconvenience of waste
with regard to timber that would arise to him from a
lessee under this Bill. He would not vote for a motion
that would injure the measure, but he would suggest the
adoption of this motion to facilitate the progress of the
Bill in that House, and in another place.
Lord CAMPBELL said he could not agree to the sug-
gestion. There was ample indemnity provided against
any waste that might be attempted by the lessee.
The Earl of DEVON said that which ought to be the
foundation of the Bill had been omitted, which was an
explanation of the practical evils resulting from these
tenures. He had heard no such explanation. The po-
licy of the measure was that it would facilitate an im-
provement of the land. This Bill proposed to substitute
a fixed sum for a periodical fine, upon payment of which
the landlord should transfer his property to the middle-
man; but he could not see what advantage such a change
could be to the occupying tenant, who was in fact the
cultivator of the land. He thought it would have been
better to have the Bill promissory rather than compul-
sory, as was proposed.
Lord REI)ESDALE said, when the Bill was intro-
duced he did not wish to press an opposition to it; but
since that other information had been obtained, with re-
gard to the lands of the Irish Society, and the covenants
contained in their leases. By this Bill they proposed to
create a fee simple, which might be destroyed under
these covenants. He could not see how that could work.
This was a material point, and ought to be discussed and
explained, which could only be done by referring it to a
Select Committee. He thought the proposal a very
reasonable one, and that it would be better to postpone
the measure for another session.
The Earl of GLENGALL said there was a great deal
of property in Ireland which would be affected by the
Bill, and he thought it would be very desirable it should
one
on
cthea m
beonpsosetpreodn.e
be roughly d to next session, that it might be more fully
id
The Earl of WICKLOW thought he never heard a
Bille w which w
than the present measure. With regard to what had
been said about a Select Committee, he had heard not
n
except
against the principle of
sourjethoto, discussed in that House
former night against the Irish Society as a reason why
thethe BBiillll.shleu'hled ebaesepowshtpicohnewda was now abandoned alto-
s urged so strenuously on a
gether, and no case whatever was made out against it.
In as far as it went, he believed it would improve the
condition of the tenantry in Ireland, and therefore the
cultivation of the land, for which it should receive Isis
support.

The Earl of LUCAN was of opinion, notwithstanding
all that had been said, that the Bill had not been suffi-
ciently discussed by their Lordships; but in consequence
of the then state of the House, he would not press his
motion to a division. On the third reading, however, he
would move as an amendment that the Bill be made per-
missive instead of compulsory.
The report was then brought up, and on the motion of
Lord CAMPBELL, the third reading of the Bill was
fixed for Friday.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 5.
The", SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THIRD READING.
The Edinburgh and Northern Uailway (Formation

of Slip Qqay and other Works at Granton, Extension
of Station at Edinburgh, Re v,ulation of Perth Stations,
and Amendment of Acts) Bill was read a third time
and passed.
CONSIDERATION.S OF REPORTS.

On the motion for the cons ideration of the report on
the Lancashire and Yorkshire and London and North
Western Railway Companies (Transfer of Interest in
the Preston ane Wyre Railway Harbour and D.;clr, and
regulating the Management of the Undertaking) Bill,
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Bill be recom •
mitted to the former Committee, with leave to sit and
proceed to•morrow,
At the suggestion of Mr. WILSON PATTEN the
motion ta as postponed.
On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, it was
ordered, that the examiners of petitions for private Bills
do proceed forthwith in the matter of the Dublin Im-
provement Bill, referred to them upon the 31st day of
May

Captain I'ECHELL presented a petition from
Brighton i❑ favour of Parliamentary reform.
Mr. HENLEY presented petitions in favour of a
national poor-rate.

Mr. CYRUS FOPHER presented a petition from
Lincolnshire in favour of agricultural protection.
Sir H. DAVIE presented a petition from the Lord
Provost of Edinburgh, praying that the Borough Police
Bill might ba postponed.
Mr. CAYLEY presented a petition from several
places in Yorkshire complaining of the effect of free
trade, and also petitions against the increase of licenses
to beer-houses.

On the motion of Mr. JOHN B. SMITH it was or-
dered that the petition of inhabitants, householders, and
owners of property in the New North•roA, Hoxton, and
its vicinity, against the New North road (Continuation
Act) Bill, (deposited in the Private Bill Officn on the
15th day of May last) be referred to the Committee on
the Bill; and that it be an instruction to the Committee
to entertain the same, notwithstanding it was not de-
posited in the Private Bill Office within seven clear days
after the second reading of the Bill, by reason of the
illness of Mr. Hume, the Member to whom it was en-
trusted.

Mr. BURROUGHES presented a petition from Nor-
wich against the Marriage Bill, one against the national
education grant, and one against the Affirmation Bill,
from the same place.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord J. RUSSELL wished now to state the day on
which he proposed that the House should go into Com-
mittee on the Irish Poor-law. He proposed that it
should form the first business of the day on Friday.
The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member for the
University of Oxford was anxious to call the attention
of the House to the affairs of Canada, and to enable him
to do so, he proposed to postpone the resolution for
going into supply on the votes relating to Canada till
Thursday week.
_ _

Mr. CiLADSTONE was willing, of course, to take
any day that best suited the convenience of the Govern-
ment, but he hoped nothing would be done in the mean
time to prejudice the question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware that there
could be.

CLAIMS ON FRANCE.
Mr. HENRY BERKELEY moved for returns of all
unsettled demands on the funds provided by the Go-
vernment of France for the liquidating the claims of
British subjects, and of the balance which remains
unappropriated to the liquidation of such claims,
including interest thereon; together with copies of
Treasury minutes relating to the surplus fund arising out
of the treaties and conventions of 1814, 1815, and 1818,
between his late Britannic Majesty and the King of
France (in continuation of the returns already printed
by order of the House of Commons of the 26th day of
May, 1833, 3d day of March, 1834, and the 22d day of
July, 1840).—Agreed to.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. lIUME, in rising to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the national representation, by extending
the elective franchise so as to include all householders,
by enacting that votes shall be taken by ballot, that the
duration of Parliaments shall not exceed three years,
and that the apportionment of representatives be ren-
dered more equal to the population, said, in addressing
himself to this important subject, he must ask for the
indulgence of the House, as he did not feel himself
physically able to go fully into it. As an old re-
former, addressing a reformed House of Parliament, he
could speak from experience as to how unsatisfactory it
was for an independent Member to address the House
o❑ subjects of reform. During the last thirty years he
had scarcely ever known a private Member introduce
such a subject that it was not treated as
it were unworthy of the time bestowed upon
it. He took a full share in the reforms of 1831,
and he was happy that they had proved so successful,
because their success had convinced many parties of
talent and influence, who opposed them, that they had
placed this country in the unenviable position it now occu-
pied. He was confident, though the Reform Bill was not
carried out to that extent which many expected, that it
had been productive of the greatest possible benefits;
that it had put an end to the direct nomination for
boroughs which formerly existed; and though it hod
fallen short of what they anticipated, they must yet
look with gratitude to the change that was produced, and
thank those who had contributed to bring it about. He
believed an opinion now existed very generally among
those who opposed that grand proceeding, that it
had bee❑ productive of much good, and had satisfied
many classes who were aggravated at the state of things
which then existed; and it was because he thought
that re:abr./1i was not carried out to the extent which
it ought to go; it was because he saw in refusing
to yield that which was the right of the great
masses of this country ; it was on those grounds that he
was induced to make the motion which was on
the paper, although very unwilling to do so, for
ha bad promised as long as he remained in
the House that he would not let a session pass
without using his humble endeavours to forward the
reforms which he proposed. He was not prepared to
deny that the House, and Parliament generally, was slow
in making reforms, but it was better to go slow and
sure than to make rapid strides, which were liable to
danger. But he was prepared to submit that
which ho thought was not in any way attended with
danger, because it would produce great content
and satisfaction among the community at large,
who wero anxious that it should be carried out.
Every one, he believed, from the Crown to the
peasant, were equally interested in having a good
government. He was aware that Parliament, instead of
being an engine to promote that good which was in-
tended, was an engine which extracted from the people
a greater amount of taxation than their circumstances
could warrant. Under the great improvements,
however, which had taken place, it was no longer in the
power of any aristocracy, of any oligarchy, or of any
class of individuals, as on former occasions, to
dictate to the Sovereign, who had now the
power of choosing her own Ministers.—(Hear, hear.)
Up to the Reform Bill the Sovereigns of this country
had been the leading string of the oligarchy, and the
revenue and the expenditure which was carried on in
the different establishments had reference more
to their own individual interests, and the
interests of the classes belonging to them, and the in-
terests of the community at large were not at all taken
into account. Now, he would say, that unless Parliament
was what it purported to be—unless it represented the
whole population—it was defective in its constitution.
Ile did not say that any proposition of his could make
Parliament perfect; but where they had evidence of acts
of injustice committed in regard to the rights of those
who ought to participate and have a share in the
elections to that House, ho did say that every
proposition that would tend to improve that Par-
liament ought to be supported by the House, and
by the Ministers beyond all others; they Lad
taken an oath to her Majesty to support such measures
as would tend to the security of the Throne, and the
welfare of the community at large. He would ask
those Ministers if they could lay their heads on their
pillows with the reflection that they had acted as
honest and faithful advisers of the Crown, to allow
a state of discontent to exist which at times
had threatened alarming consequences? Were he (Mr.
Hume) in their situation, and had taken the oaths they
had taken, he could not lay his head upon his pillow,
and, as a Minister of the Crown, say that he had done
his duty. He recollected Mr. Canning, on a motion
brought forward by a late Member for Westminster (Sir
F. Burdett) standing up in his place, and saying:—" As
for me I take my stand against all reform; I am for the
rotten boroughs; I wish to maintain them, and I do so
because • England has enjoyed a greater proportion of
prosperity under the system which has existed than in
any of the continental powers; but (said Mr. Canning) I
go further, Parliament has been ready to meet the cir-
cumstances of the times, and I will uphold, until I see
reason for thinking otherwise, Gatton and Old Samna
as the bulwarks-of the Constitution."—(A laugh.) He
(Mr. Hume) had visited Old Sarum a few days previously,
and seen not even a house there, and nothing but an old
building for protecting the fort ; and he asked Mr. Can-
ning if that was a place to be represented. He replied,
no ; but it is property, and property ought to be
represented. As to Gatton and Old Sarum, and all the
other rotten places, they were now removed; and at the
period of which he spoke, defective although that House
was in its representation, still it stood at the top of the
ladder among representative governments. No state in
Europe could say that there was a greater degree of
popular power or of popular representation existing
than existed at that time in England. The times were
changed, and they had to consider whether they ought
not now to make other changes. When his Ho-
nourable Friend Mr. Duncombe brought in a Bill
to repeal the rate-paying clauses, which formed a
great impediment to the working of the Reform
Bill, it was thrown out by Ministerial influence.
He (Mr. Hume) recollected the Noble Lord rallied his
Hon. Friend on the danger of interfering with the Bill
that had passed, and talked about progressive reform.
What had been the Noble Lord's progressive reform since
that? Why, the Noble Lord gave notice of his intention
of bringing in a Bill for repealing the tax-paying clauses
so tar as they related to the assessed taxes. He (Mr.
Hume) thought the proceedings of the two last years
had been perfectly delusive, and therefore he came to
the cf Delusion that the Noble Lord and his colleagues,
rerormers as they were in his day, had made
up their minds to stand fast by the Reform
Bill. They were now at the very bottom of the ladder
of representative government, and that which had been
supposed dangerous to Englishmen had been conceded
to Frenchmen and to almost every continental country.—
(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) Look at the result
What had the result been? The result had arisen from
the reckless conduct of the sovereign of France, who,
having agreed to reform, grossly violated his faith.
Ho appealed to any man whether this had
not been so ? Let them mark the progress
of universal suffrage in other countries, and its growth
in our own. ln other countries, where it bad been con-