The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

NEW BILLS.

Mr. NAPIER would be quite willing to rest the case
of the Church on the able and eloquent statement of his
[lon. and valued Colleague, but there were some mistakes
in the arguments of the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman opposite, which he desired to correct. He was
quite willing to compare the doctrines of the Protestant
Church with those of the earliest churches, and to try
its doctrines by the word of God. If they were to have
their own c eiscientious views of what a Church of
eighteen hundred years ought to possess, he believed
the funds at the disposal of the Establishment were not
more than sufficient for its creditable support.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that whatever was
done with the funds of the Established Church, a reason-
able and sufficient income ought to be reserved for the
working clergy.—(fiear.) Tnere was, moreover, a
question of expediency involved in this matter, and he
contended, that so respectable a body as the Protestant
Church, including in the Church both clergy and laity,
were entitled to a respectable provision. It was a diffi-
cult thing to get at the exact revenues of a church, but
he believed, after the utmost investigation, that the sum
actually received by the clergy and the Commissioners
for the Reduction of Vestry Cess and other matters,
amounted to between 650,0001. and 660,000/. a year.
The number of the clergy was certainly too great, and
when they were peying men out of a trust fund, it was
evidently absurd to pay men out of a trust who had no
duties to perform. Thera were not above 200 more
Roman Catholic clergy than Protestant, although the
disparity in the numbers was so great ; and if it should
be said that there were friars in orders outside the Ro-
man Catholic Church, then he answered by pointing to
the Wesleyan preachers outside the Protestant Church,
who were more numerous than the friars. With regard
to any surplus fund that there might be, he meant to
say that he should not wish any portion of such a sum
to he given to the Roman Catholics, as it would give
an appearance of triumph to one party over another. It
was in no spirit of hostility that he should vote for the
motion of his 100. Friend.
Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his regret at the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for until
that moment he had thought that the Hon. Gentleman
was for relieving the people of Ireland of the members
of the Established Church, instead of being an advocate
for tinkering the temporalities of the Establishtnent.
He had often heard that St. Patrick was an Irishman—
that he came of decent people—that in point of fact he
was a gentleman ; but until that evening he certainly
was not aware of his having been a Protestant.—(Laugh-
ter.) He should not say a word, God forbid, of his
Protestant friends and neighbours, but an illustrious
countryman of his, namely, Dean Swift, had spoken of
the Bishops appointed in his time in the following terms:
—" No blame rests with the Court for their aspoint-
merits, and excellent and moral men were selected for all
vacancies, when they occurred, but it unfortunately hap-
pened, that as the worthy divines crossed Hounslow-
heath, they were robbed and murdered on the highway,
and those who did so, seized on their robes, and patents
of appointment, came over to Ireland, and were con-
secrated in their stead."—(Roars of laughter.) These
were the lineal descendants of St. Patrick. Let them
now see how the rest got on down to their own time.
The Hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Mr.
Hamilton) talked of averages, and asserted that the
Church was not so rich as it was thought, for the clergy,
on an average, had only 1721. 19s. 1 lid. per annum.
But some had only 50/. And as to averages, when the
corn-law was about to be repealed, it was asserted that
on an average every man, woman, and child in England
consumed a certain quantity of beef and mutton daily,
whereas in point of fact it was well known that thousands
of these same people never ate a morsel of one or the
other from year's end to year's end.—(Laughter.) It
was precisely the same with the parsons. Well, there
was another view of the case, showing how these aver-
ages told. The following summary was taken from a
paper called the Daily Reporter, giving an account of
the sums of money paid to the Established Church
of Ireland:—Archbishops, 151,127/. 12s. 4d.; Deans,
22,624/. ss. 61 ; ministers' money, 10,000/.; making
altogether, with glebe-lands, an aggregate sum
of 807,5331. 12s. 4d., to which should be added
75 0001. a year paid to Trinity College.—(Hear.)
Then, again, those lineal descendants of St. Patrick—
( A laugh)—paid the common debt of nature, and then
mile the probate duty paid by their heirs, which he
found in another public document, up to July, 1832, as
follows: Fowler, Archbishop of Dublin, 150,000/.;
Beresford, Bishop of Tuatn, .250,0001.; Agar, Bishop of
Cashel, 400,0001.; Stopford, Bishop of Cork, 250,0001.;
Bernard, BishOp of Limerick, 250,0001. ; Hawkins,
Bishop of Riphoe, 250 0001.; and several othrs, making
in all a sum of 1,575,000/. as probate duty. He did not
mean to insinuate that those Bishops were substituted
for the persons robbed on Hounslow-heath, but they
certainly feathered their nests very well. The Right
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department made a speech of which he did not
approve. Now, as regarded the appropriation of reve-
nues, he repudiated the idea of appropriating to Catholic
purposes any portion of it. His religion was not to be
sustained by the mammon of iniquity. The Hon. Gen-
tleman, after reading an extract of a speech of Earl
Fortescue, pointing out the grievances of the Established
Church in Ireland, concluded by thanking the Honour-
able Member for Middlesex for the able manner in which
he brought the question forward.
Major BERESFORI) denied that the sum attributed
to the Archbishop of Tuam, on which probate duty was
paid, amounted to 250,0001. When the statement was
first made, he applied to his relatives, and received the
most distinct refutation, for it only amounted to 40,0001.,
and not 250,000/., as had been asserted.
Mr. REYNOLDS explained. The document to which
he referred was a public one, and as to the amount of
probate duty, it was to be had at the Stamp-office.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL denied that the people of Ireland
were indifferent to the monster grievance of the Estab-
lished Church, and protested against say endowment
being made to the Catholic Church. -
Mr. OSBORNE—I do not think that the friends of
religious equality in Ireland have reason to regret the
tone, or upshot, of the debate.—(Hear, hear.) But the
present is a melancholy occasion,, and the \Vhig prin-
ciple has expired.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) We
have heard of the birth, parentage, and education of
the appropriation clause, and now our melancholy duty
is to attend its obsequies; the Right Hon: Secretary for
the Home Department sings the dirge as chief mourner,
while all the men who voted for the clause since 1838
are forced to walk in the funeral procession.—(Rear
hear, and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says
that I am not consistent, because I wished to abolish the
Church altogether in 1848. But when he reminds me
of my inconsistency, be should - not forget that he
himself supported the ballot in Devonport and op-
posed it in Northumberland.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last man to taunt
another with inconsistency; be is evidently a man of in-
firm mind.—(A laugh.) I did not expect to be taunted
for offering a compromise, but the Right Hon. Gentle-
man refuses all compromise. He says "If I could see a
good practical plan." What is his plan? He would
endow the Roman Catholic Church; would he? He
knows that he dare not do it. He knows that that is a
step which the Whigs, false as they are, will not attempt
so long as they have the government of the country in
their hands.—(hear.) I regret that the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvan and one or two other members
of the Government have not given us the benefit of their
opinion. Assuredly they will be obliged to eat much
dirt to-night.—(Cheers and laughter.) But whatever
flattering unction they may lay to their souls, they can-
not go on night after night seeing one principle expire
after another. They may lean one night on a crutch
and en another lean on a cushion from Montrose—
(Great laughter)—but they are only staggering on, and
must at last expire from sheer political atrophy. This
question, which had already di atroyed so many Govern-
ments, will eventually prove the grave of her Majesty's
present Ministry.—(Hear, hear.)
At the conclusion of the Hon. Member's reply, there
was a pretty general rush from the Ministerial benches.
As the Members passed out they were greeted with
loud ironical cheering from the Protectionist side of the
House.
The House then divided, when there appeared--
.For the.motion ••• .., 103
Against it ..• • ••• ... 170
Majority ••• ..„ —67
The announcement of the numbers was greeted with
Igud cheers by the minority.

Leave was given to bring in the following Bills:
On the motion of Mr. HAYTER, a Wll to repeal the
allowances in the purchase of stamps, and for the re-
ceiving and accounting for the duties on gold and silver
plate, and to grant other allowances in lieu thereof.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, a Bill further to amend an Ant of the
10'h year of her present Majesty, for rendering valid
certain proceedings for the Relief of Distress h Ireland,
by employment of the labauring poor, and to indemnify
those who have acted in such proceedings. Also, Bill
to amend an Act of the 10th year of her Majesty, inti-
" An Act to facilitate the Improvement of Landed
Property in Ireland."
On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, a Bill to
continue an Act of the sth and 6th years of her present Majesty for amending the law relative to private lunatic,
asylums in Ireland.
MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL.
Mr. WYLD moved the second reading of this. Bill.
Year after year the loss of life in collieries was morns•
ing, and this year it had increased 35 per cent. over
the previous year, and his object in proposing this Bill
was to provide a remedy for this evil by a proper and
efficient system of inspection.
Sir G. GREY suggested that legislation should be
postponed until the Committee now sitting of the House
of .L-irds on the subject, and the Commission appointed
by the Government, should have reported. He did not
desire to go into the meritapf the Bill, but he was not
prepared to assent to the app dntment of a chief inspec-
tor in London, and a number of inspectors in the coun-
try, to be paid for by a rate of 33. in the pound. He
believed the un&ratauding on a former day was, that the
Bill should be postponed until the inquiries referred to
had concluded. If the Hon. Gentleman persisted in
pressing the second reading, he should feel it his duty
to move that it be read a second time that day three
months.

Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill.
Mr. BERNAL opposed it. He had a sincere desire
to effect the object in view, but he had full confidence
that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary
would pay due attention to the subject.
Mr. DUNCAN requested Mr. Wyld to withdraw the

Bill.
Strangers withdrew, but the Bill was negatived with•
out a division.

s.—
In reply to Mr. HENLEY,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said ho could not at present fix
the day for the second reading of the Railway Audit
Bill, but that he would do so on Thursday.
The House went into Committee on the
POOR RELIEF (CITIES AND BOROUGHS) BILL,
The several clauses of which were agreed to.
BOROUGHS RELIEF BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL.
This Bill also passed through Committee.
SHERIFFS (WESTMORELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and passed through
Committee.
The orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons,

MONDAY, JULY 9.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.

The following Resolution was reported from the above
Committee :
That in the case of the North Staffordshire Railway (New-
castle and Silverdale Branch Amendment Act) petition, the
standing orders ought not to be dispensed with.—Report to
lie on the table.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Cavan°it)
TUESDAY, JULY 10.
CHURCH OF IRELAND.
Motion made, and Question put, " That this House will
resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to con.
Sider the present state of the Temporalities of the Church o:
Ireland." The House divided:—
MINORITY—AYES, 103.

Adair, R. A. Harris, Richard Pearson, Charles
Aglionby, 11. A. Headlam, T. E. Pechell, Captain
Ii Henn}ey ,v. .
dAlexander.l.i e
s P.
ile tkoi ,n Saulg t.m..e
James
Alcock, Thomas
Armstrong, R. B.
Bass, M. T. Heyworth, L. Pinney, W.
Berkeley, Henry F. 'Lindley Charles Power, Dr.
Berkeley. C. L. G. Hodges, T. L.l Rawdon, Colonel
Bernal, Ralph Hodges T. Twisden Reynolds, John
H
Birch, Sir Thomas oliond, Robert Ricardo, Osman
Blake, Martin J. Howard, C. W. Robartes, T. J.
Bouverle, E. P. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel
Bright, John Jackson, William Scully, Francis
Brotherton, J. Kershaw, James Shafto, R. D.
Millbury, E. 11. King, P. J. Smith, R. V.
Burke, Sir Thomas Langston, J. 11. Smith, J. Benjamin
Callaghaa, D. Locke, Joseph Spearman, 11. J.
Clay, James Lushington, C. Strickland, Sir G.
Cobden, B. - 3PCullagb, W. T. Stuart, Lord Dudley
Colebrooke, Sir T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tancred, H. W.
Davie, Sir Henry Mangles, R. D. Thicknesse, It. A.
D'Eyncourt, C. T. Martin, Samuel Thompson, Colons
Duncan, Viscount Melgund. Viscount Thompson, George
Duncan, George Milner, W. M. Thoniely, T.
Ellice, E., jun. Mitchell, A. T. Toilemache, F. J.
Evans, John Moleswortb, Sir W. Trelawny, J. S.
Ewart, William Monsell, William Wall, C. B.
Fagan, William Moore, G. H. Wahnsley, Sir J. -
Fergus, John Mostyn, E. Wawn, J. T.
Fordyce, A. D. Mowatt, Francis Williams, John •
Fertescue. Chichester Nugent, Sir Percy Willyams, H.
Fox, W. J. O'Brien, J. Wood, W. P.
Gibson, T. M. O'Connell, John
Greene, John O'Connell, M. J. TELLERS.
Grenfell, C. Pascoe O'Connor. FearguS Osborne, Ralph
Grenfell, Charles W. O'Flaherty, Anthony Roche, E. B.
Grosvenor, Lord B. Ogle, S. C.

MAJORITY-NOES, 170.
Acland, Sir T. D. Gordon, Admiral Napier, Joseph
Ashley, Lord Gore, W. R. 0. Neeld, John
Bagsha .v, John Goulburn Henry Newdegate, N.
twines, M. T. Graham, 'Sir James Newry, Viscount
Bankes, G. Granby, Marquis of tileholl, John
Baring, H. B. Greene Thomas O'Brien, Sir Lucius
Baring, Sir F. Grey, Sir G. Packe, C. W.
Bateson, Thomas Grey, R. W. Paget, Lord Clarence
Beckett, W. Grogan, Edward Pakington, Sir J.
Bentinck, Lord H. Halsey, T. P. Palmer, Robert
Beresford. William Hamilton, G. A. Parker, John
Boldero, H. G. Hamilton, J. H. Patten, W.
Bowles, Admiral Hamilton, Lord C. Feel, Sir Robert
Bramston, T. W. Harris, Captain Pennant, Colonel
Bremridge, Richard Hawes, Benjamin Plowden, W. H.
Brisco, M. Hay,':Lord John Plumptre, J. P.
Broadley, H. Ilayes4Sir E. Price, Sir Robert
Bromley, Robert Ilayter, W. G. Reid, Colonel
Brooke, Sir A. B. Heneage, G. H. W. Repton, G. W. J.
Burrell, Sir C. Herbert, H. A. Rich, Henry
Cardwell, E. }lorries, John C. Romilly, Sir. John
Cavendish, W. G. llervey, Lord A. Rushout, Captain
Chichester, Lord J. Ilildyard, R. C. Russell, E.
Childers, J. W. Hildyard, T. B. Rutherfurd, A.
Christopher, R. Hill, Lord E. Serve, G. P.
Christy, Samuel Hobhouse, Sir John Seymour, Sir H.
Cobbold, J. C. Hodgson, W. N. Sheridan, R. B.
Cocks, T. S. Hood, Sir A. Simeon, John
Colvile, C. R. Hope, A. Smyth, J. G.
Compton, H. C. Hotham, Lord Somerville. Sir W.
Corry, 11. . Howard, Sir R. Sotherou, T. H: S.
Cubitt, William Jermyn, Earl Spooner, Richard
Darner, Colonel Jervis, Sir John Stafford, Augustus
Deedes, W. Johnstone, Sir d. Stuart, H.
Denison, J. E. Jones, Captain Stuart, J.
Disraeli, ,B. Ker, Richard Taylor, T. E.
Duckworth, Sir J. Knox, Colonel Thesizer, sir F.
Dundee, Admiral Labouchere, Henry Townshend. Captain
mind.% sir David Lacy, if. C. Turner, G. J.
Dunne, F. P. Laseelles, W. S. Tyrell, Sir J.
Du Pre, C. G. Legh, Vesey, T.
East, Sir J. B. Lewis, George C: Villiers, Viscount
Ebrington, Viscount Lewisham, Vis. Vivian, J. E.
Egerton, Sir P. Lindsay, Colonel Walpole, S. 11.
Egerton, W. T. Littleton, E. R. Walter, John
Elliot, John E. Lockhart, W.' Watkins, Colonel
Estcourt, J. B. B. Lopes, Sir Ralph Wellesley, Lord C.
Farnham, E. B. Lygon, Gen. Williamson, Sir IL
Ferguson, Sir R. Martin, C. W. Wilson, James
Fitzpatrick, J. W. Manic, Fox Wilson, Matthew
Floyer, John Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wodehouse, E.
Forbes, Wm. Miles, P. W. S. Wood, Sir Charles
Fox, S. L. Miles, William Wyld, James
Freestun, Colonel Morgan, 0. Young, Sir John
Frewen, C. 11. Morris, David
Galway, Viscount Mullings, J. R. TELLEAS.
Gladstone, W. E. Mundy, William Tighe% Henry
Gooch,E. S. Naas, Lord Cowper, W. F

GENERAL EDUCATION AND EX
TENSION OF TIIE FRANCHISE.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
Sin,—ln order to give the greatest impetus possible
to the spread of voluntary education among the
poorer classes, let the test of qualification for exero
cising the elective franchise be an educational one and
not a property one ; or, in other words, " give the vote
to a man because he is a man, not because he has
purchased some earth or some bricks and mortar."
It will be admitted by all that an educated man is
better qualified to exercise the elective franchise than
an uneducated man, but the difficulty is, if education
is to be the test, where to draw the line of demarca-
tion between the one and the other. To remove this
difficulty, let every man (not being a pauper nor con-
victed of crime) who can solve correctly rule of three
questions in arithmetic have a vote. Thus the line
would be clearly defined, the principle of universal
suffrage in its only healthy aspect would be adopted,
and the vote given to a man because he is a man.
In going through this test he would show his ca-
pability to read, write, and use his reasoning facul-
ties, all of which must certainly be deemed necessary
qualifications for an independent voter, and all which,
being within the reach of the poor as well as the rich,
would not, in that respect, be liable to the same ob-
jection as a property qualification.
Now, to show that this qualification would bring in
_a more intelligent class of voters than we have at
venture to assert that one-half of the
Ipresent, I may
present voters, if tried by this test to-morrow, would
be struck off the register; but to save them from being
disfranchised, and to let the influence of the property