The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-11 00:00:00

toted to the penny postage, and would abolish that
system. Now he (the Ch;nedlor of the Exchequer)
hell quite the opposite opinion.—(llegr, hear.) He be-
lieved it. had eonterred great benctit on all classes of the
c•?mcaunity, and he took the opportunity of stating that
since the establishment of the penny postage the number
of letters had quadrupled. During the first year the
number actually doubled, and within the last six years
that increased number had doubled; so that, in point of
tact, since the introdaction of the system, the number
of letters which had passed through the Post-office Ind
actualy quadrupled. The lion. Gentleman objt eted to
the unproved prison discipline of the present day, and
he ate; posed they would have another resolution en that
subject; but he doubted very much if the House would
agree With hina iu his views. Hiving noticed the Hon.
Gentleman's propositions regarding Ireland, the cur
reney, free trade in gold, and the amount of British
capital locked up in debt, the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman showed that as each of those questions was to
form the groundwork for inquiry and resolutions, they
c old not expect to get through the programme before
the end of half a dozmi sessions at la:it.—(hear,
hear.)Ou these grounds, therefore, he felt jus:ifh d
in resisting the motion of the Honourable Gen-
tleman, and he trusted the House, by opposing
the proposition submitted to their consideration, would
tr,vent the waste of time which such an inquiry as pro-
posed would certainly entail. While he offered this op-
Posithn to the resolution, he felt bound to state, that
Year by year a progressive revision of taxation hed been
going on. Various alterations had been made in their
Customs and Excise duties, and hardly a year passed
that some portion of the burthen of taxation- un articles
of consumption and manufacture was not removed.
Leaving out of the qtvstion the property and corn duties,
no less than thirty millions of taxes had been remitted
since the year 1813. During the last four years, from
1845 to 1848, the amount produced by Custom
duties had increased 887,0001, namely, from 20,700,000/.
to 22,593;9301., while in the same period there were
remitted in Custom duties 4,681,000/. There could
be no better proof, he maintained, of the remission
of duties on articles of consumption and manufacture,
and of the t-ndency of the Government to relieve the
labouring classes from those taxes which interfered with
their employment. The Right Hon. Gentleman vindi-
cated himself and other Members of the Government
from the charge made against them by the lion. Member
for West Surrey, namely, that when not in power they
held out the expectation of effecting great reduction of
taxation, and he concluded by again calling on the Rome
to resist the motion, as if carried he believed it would
only lead to a waste of time.

SPOON ER considered that alb Right Honourable
Gentleman had endeavoured to divert the attention of the
House from the resolution submitted to its consideration
by his Hon .Friend the Member for West Surrey. It
did not follow that if they went into Committee, they
were bound to enter into all the subjvcts touched upon
by the lion. Gentleman in his amusing address. The
proposition which they had to decide was, not whether
they entertained his views, but whether the House
should resolve itself into a Committee to consider the
public expenditure, and the existing system of taxation,
and how far both might be reviied, with a view to re-
lieve the pressure on the industry of the country. Now,
he should like to know how could any man who opposed
that motion justify himself* before his constituents ? The
Right lioneurable Gentleman, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, said that the present Government, by the
constant revision of taxation, was making great
Progress towards the object which the Honourable
Member for West Surrey had in view. Now, it that
were the case, how did it come to pass that the expendi-
ture, which in 1842 amounted to 50,000,000/., reached in
1819 between 53,000,000/. and 54,000,000/ ? With regard
to the proposition of reducing the salaries of public officers
to the standard of 1;94, ho was prepared to show that it
Would not be the extravagent change which the Right
Zion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, en-
deavoured to make the House believe. Before the war,
the Master-General of the Ordnance was paid 1,5601.,
but he now received 3.0001. per annum. The Surveyor-
General has a salary of 3251; it was now 1,200/.; and
the Storekeeper's salary was increased from 9651 to
1,2001. per annum. It was with those officers the Hon.
Gentleman's resolution intended to deal, and not with
the incomes of the Secretary of State, or the President
of the Council. He would vote with his Hon. Friend
because he desired to go into Committee to see it' they,
could remove the distress without violating our obliga-
tions with the public creditor.
Sir JOHN TYRELL would not have addressed the
House had not the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
Honourable Gentleman who introduced the motion,
told them that the gentlemen who addressed the farmers
recently, were imposing on them when they said, that
protection must again be given to corn. Now, he denied
that the gentlemen who had addressed the farmers in
their own counties or elsewhere, had been imposing upon
them. He'could not agree in the views of the Hon.
Member who brought forward this motion, and he should
not support him.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the words of the motion
were unexceptionable, but the opinions which he ex-
pressed he could not assent to in the slightest degree.
He could not agree with him in going back to an in-
creased system of postage. At the same time he did not
like to be considered as an obstacle to a revision or re-
duction of expenditure; but he thought it ought not to
be put forward in its present shape, and, therefore, ho
would move the previous question,
Mr. COBI)EN seconded the amendment.
Mr. PLUMPTRE regretted to find that the Honour-
able Member for Surrey had treated the question with
levity. It was no laughing matter, for the people were
in deep distress, and the day must come when the ques-
tion would press itself upon the consideration of the
country.
Mr. JACKSON said he came down to the House to
support the motion, but the speech of the Hon. Mover
was so inconsistent with his motion, that ho could not
think of giving his vote in favour of the latter.
Mr. B. COCHRANE should feel great pleasure in
giving his support to a motion, the object of which was
to relieve the poor of this country, by throwing the bur-
dens of the State upon the shoulders of those who were
best able to bear them.—(Hear.)
Mr. MUNTZ said the terms of the motion were un-
exceptionable, and the statements made in support of it
were perfectly legitimate. He brought forward a mo-
tion on the same subject some time ago, and he then
made statements which his experience had since fully
confirmed. This ho would say, that great distress pre•
veiled amongst the people, and some means must be taken
to remove the pressure upon them; and they might de-
pend upon it that this must be done, and would be done
by some one. Trade was deteriorating, and wages
were deteriorating, and seeing all these things, he
should support the motion.
Colonel SIBTHORP would also support the motion,
because he believed it to be necessary to do something
to relieve the distress of the people. He had given
notice of a motion in reference to the army and navy.
lie did this because it was right to overturn everything,
in order that the bad might bo selected from the good,
and that justice might be done to the people, and the
'trickery, trumpery, and trash of every Government
`should be exposed.
Mr. HEYWORTH said distress existed, and the only
'Way to relieve it was by extending commerce.--(Hear,
hear.) Unless they did this, and revised the whole of
'the indirect taxation of the country, they would not be
able to stem the tide of pauperism and distress which
was flowing over the country. If the motion was car
tied economy might be promoted, but he did not attachl
so much consequence to savings as to the remedy he
proposed.
Mr. HENLEY saw no objection to the resolution.
As this appeared to be a practical measure he should
support it. With regard to the amount of salaries, all
he would say was, that the prices of the necessaries of
life were very different from what they were now when
these salaries were fixed, and he therefore thought that
ground for inquiry into their amount. There was great
competition in every walk of life, and he saw no reason
why Government offices should be exempted from the
principle of obtaining services at a moderate cherge.
He should vote for the motion.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said, Ireland had not been in-
cluded in this measure, but he should contend that if she
was fairly dealt with she would be a source of consider-
able revenue to this country.
Mr. DISRAELI said, the motion now under consider-
ation was one of universal interest. He had not heard
the entire of his Hon. Friend's speech in introducing
that resolution, but he had heard a great part of it, and
he felt bound to acquit his Hon. Friend of having treated
the subject with levity. A spirit of philosophic sarcasm
did not involve levity. He knew his Hon. Friend had
devoted great attention to this subject. He could not
admit that the resolution might not be separated from
the speech which accompanied it ; but when calling the
attention of the House to so important a question, which
was, in fact, equivalent to ,taking into consideration the
• state of the country, it was usual to lay on the table of
the House the resolutions embodying the views by
which it was proposed to meet the difficulties
alleged to exist. He thought his Hon. Friend did not do
himself justice in bringing forward this motion in
neglecting to adopt the usual precedent followed on simi-
lar occasions. Had he adopted that course, ha would
not have been taunted as he had been by various Mem •
hers with having made omissions, such as not having
referred to Ireland. The course he had pursued led to
this result, that it was only by accident that the House
had not come to a division upon the motion when the
lion. Member had concluded his speech. Had he given
due notice
the House
required the deliberate and mature
e gam_o thef .i m upon the several questions, and at
Opinion::it
could
ouciadndidly laid down what were his own
the House not have happened that the sense of
comprehensive a could bo taken upon so important and
the contrary, the question after a short debate. Oa
llouse having been prepared for
the question, the result would have been that after a
the
debate worthy ofiamvpootretasan House would have given ties f cf t otrhye tos the
eeccot thetry
and to their constituents;gih but he would ask, would that
be the cap news
e would not object to the motion
because he differed from
which his Hon. Friend hadmany of
the conclusions at
pinionarrived. He bad no hesita-
tuhaotuse
would
tion in expressing an o
no long period of
time would elapse before the
be called
upon and would be induced
this subject, but he put it to ohiciffinto Committee upon
consider whether he would be onourable Friend to
he had in view, by taking advancinga the object
motion, in a House which was not fullyv oteupon his
was to bo observed that there were manyat_tended. It
the question which had not been touched branches of
upon. It
was-true his Honeurable Friend had made men
u
gestione, which must have convinced every one: thats
he
must give a decided opinion as to the existing sY s.
tem of taxation. He hoped his Honourable Friend
from a due regard to the importance of the question,
not pres,; tu:.ture cfit, t'ra un,
are wouid ;,ilc:' ill, :a in t:.P pinf,tl f di,
viding on his motion. Ile was most anxious that his
Hon. Friend should withdraw his motion, rather than
oblige him to adopt the previous question Which carried

with it some degree of censure. lle thought the course
he would adopt now that he candidly submitted -his
views to the House, and that. they hid been received
with all due consideration, would be not to take the
sense of the House upon the que.i!i,:n.

Mr. LABOUCHEIIE said he wished, on the part of
his Right ErieLd the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
to repudiate the imputation that he had treated the
question of retrenchment, or that of the colonies with
levity. His Right Hoe. Friend did certainly regard with
e. me degre o of levity the manner in which the question
had been introduced, but he did not extend it to the cub.
jeet.—(hear.) With regard to the resolution before the
House, he thoueht it e ould have more cha-ice of success
if the resolutions w hish it was intended to lead to had
beer, laid upon the tahle. As the case now stood.he was
not prepared to follow him as a pilot upon such a voyage
as lie proposed to undertake. They ought not to get
into a Committee unless they could see how they were
to be employed when they got into that Committee, and
how they were to get out of it. With 'regard, however,
to economy and retrenchment, his Right lion. Friend
was as anxious to promote both as any lion. Member of
that House, end of that he had given ample proof.; hut
it aas another thing to embark upon a voyage of disco-
very under the auspices of the Hon. Member, which
would only be a waste of time, If the Hon. Gentleman
persevere d, he hoped the ressintion would be rejected.
It wars his intention to vote for the previ nl5 eine sti n.
Mr. ROBINSON said he thought his lion. Friend
had adopted the best means of attaining the end be had
in view. It was not correct to say that motions of this
kind should be preceded by a series of resolutions em-
bodying the views the proposer entertained of accom-
plishing the object he aimed at. He had himself, in the
year 1836, brought forward a motion for a revision of
taxation. On that creation, in a House of 372, he was
beaten only by a majority of an. The present Govern-
ment stated that they would take the question of re-
trenchment into consideration during the Easter recess;
lie wished to inquiry now whether they had done any-
thing to redeem that pledge?
Mr. COI3DEN said he was disposed to question the
sincerity of the Hon. Member who had proposed this re-
solution. He agreed with him in the expression of the
sc ntiment, that there was a tendency on the part of the
rich to oppress the poor. He agreed with him upon the
wasteful expenditure incurred in the dockyards, and
also, that they should reduce the national debt ; and,
with that view, that they should equalise the land-
tax, and irsposo a property-tax, and apply the pro-
duce of both to its reduction. He also agreed with him
that they could never again resort to the bread-tax.
With regard to the agricultural impostors that were re-
ferred to, all ho would sly was, that gentlemen could not
assume a worse occupation than first deluding themselves
to attempt the delusion of telling the farmers they would
get back protection. He could not, however, agree
with him in his idea of progressive taxation, nor to
the abolition of the penny post. In the present dis-
cussion, what he had to complain of was, that the Hon.
Member had not told them what he meant to do. 11e
was not in lova with the motion of the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Drummond), because he did not think that much
good would arise from their going into Committee; and
he regretted that a reduction of expenditure was not in-
troduced with it, because the revision was not what
the country required, but a reduction. He perfectly
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman, that a reduction in
the salaries of the Sate-paid officers was necessary,
in consequence of the poverty of the country, through
taxation ; not that he wished that talent and
ability should not be fairly remunerated, but that
there should be fewer officers in several departments,
and that the taxation should be transferred from con-
sumable goods to landed property. When the Hue.
Member for Essex (Sir J. Tyrell) spoke of the distress
of the agricultural pot tion of the country, he (Sir John
Tyrell) should bear in mind that that distress to which
he elluded, was owing to the incessant rains for four-
teen days lest year; and, also, that it was an e xeeption
to the general rule; and moreover, that the distress of
which he csmplained, was confined to the western coun-
ties of this country.—(hear, hear.) He thought that
such could not be alleged as a reason for saying that
the whole country was in distress. He would consider
himself guilty of telling an untruth if he were to say
that the immense popuistion of the West Riding of
Yorkshire, amounting to 1,500,000, were in dis-
tress, because through the late revolutions in foreign
countries some of the manufacturers of, that riding were
not as successful as usual ; and such was the case H ith
the agriculturists of the western counties, while those
in other parts of England were happy and contented.—
(Cries of " No, no," from the Protectionists.) He
would say—Yes, yes; for in 1839, 1840, 1841, and 1842
they (the Protectioniete) were silent whilst the north of
England was suffering under very great distress, and
in 1848, they were also contented. In fact, whatever
remedies were required for the agriculturist's interest
should be obtained by a reduction in the national ex-
penditure, and in that he would gladly and willingly
support them. He would recommend the county consti-
tuencies to keep their representatives from the House,and
that they themselves, the free-traders, would reduce the ex-
penditure without them, for he considered that they were
the principal barriers to so essential a measure. He
considered that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. M. Gibson)
had put his motion in the most courteous manner, and
hoped that the llon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond)
would withdraw his motion, for he could not go into
Committee on it. fie should therefore vote for the pre-
vious question.

Mr. DRUMMOND said that ho did not impute a want
of courtesy to any lion. Member, and that he considered
ho was acting according to the standing orders of the
House, and to the usual mode adopted, by refusing to lay
the resolutions before the House previously to going
into Committee. Such had been done by the President
of the Board of Trade on the navigation-lswe. He
brought that subject on solely for the good of the country,
and he thought that if the manufacturing interest did
not get some other leaders besides those they had, that
they would never do any good.
The House then divided—
For the previous question
Against it • lOO
Majority for the previous question —5l
EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY.
Mr. CHARTERIS moved for a Select Committee to
inquire into and report upon the expenditure of certain
sums which appear as unaccounted for, under the head
of Parl'arnentary expenses, in the report which was re-
cently published by a Committee appointed to inquire
into the management of the affairs of the Eastern Coun-
ties Railway Company. He felt assured that any Hon.
Member of that House would join him to remove from
the public mind the prejudices that that subject had
created, and would nut, therefore, trespass on the time
of the House.

Colonel SIBTHORP said that he felt fully satisfied
that it would be essential to the benefit of the country
that there should be a general inquiry into the state of
railways; ferl,uch an inquiry would tend to show the pub-
lic that some parties were not in the position that they
were represented to be. He was for examining every
railway director and every engineer, for he believed they
were a tricky, set of fellows.
Mr. ROEBUCK implored the House not to be led
away by the whims of any Hon. Member. That was
no question for buffoonery.—(A laugh.) Certain seri-
ous charges and insinuations were made against that
House, and it required the most searching investiga-
tion to arrive at a proper conclusion. It was not the
peculiar company itaelt; or the manner in which rail-
ways were mannaged, into which they were to inquire,
but the character of the House. He had r.o per-
sonal interest in the matter—he had not one farthing
in any railway company whatever, but ho was for a
rigid examination into the conduct of the Members of
that House, respecting certain transactions. He could
not, however. avoid remarking that those who cringed
in that House to an Hon. Member while ho was in the
ascendant, and king of a petty dominion, now turned
round basely with the tide, and swelled that tide against
a fallen victim, whom they had cheered on almost to
death.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Roebuck) had the same
feeling towards the fallen favourite opposite in cheering
on committeemen to hunt a man down; but it was done
for the same base purpose—money put him forward, and
money was now the instrument to put him down.
Sir R. INGLIS thought the motion ought to be with-
drawn until the Hon. Member particularly referred to
was in his place.

An Hox: MEMBER—He had opportunities enough to
do so.

Sir R. H. INGLIS—Hon. Members may say ho had
opportunities enough to do so, but the fact was, that the
sit nt
raGersposnthttrele
er mu
eocatranssevere
wasd tlh.tch
boor
rn
domesticga n at under
the that moment uluoanneedrl
amaulacmhitlya.ughEteiero,
entered into an animated conversation with Mr. Roe-
110 (Sir R. In lis) pronounced no opinion on
tbhuec ktransaction—(A laugh)—he had had no communi-
cation whatever with any individuals concerned, but he
received that morning a letter from Yorkshire, in which
the writer urged upon him the common justice of post-
poning a decision upon the question, until the Hon. Gen-
tlemen so deeply interested could be present.
Mr. HUMPHREY BRO\VNE said that the question
which sought to be inquired into by the Committee was
really settled that day, at a meeting of the Eastern
Co
ritnieeesti leigaiilnwqauyireCdomeopmaap3r-i The
s© the faaaaunts into which
following:—For thaut
ad-
vertisements, 1,539/.; solicitor's account,4,i; printing, 2141.
1,6191.; loss on
shares, 3,4001. ; advertidsemieno e
advertisements, 3no
transactions, a nasua citui ocinusi, yo
r b y
such a
Nyaorvri,amwehnattarryesul result coCommitteeul
items as these, which did not include any Parliamentary
exp-nses whatever?
Colonel SIBTHORP then (amid much laughter)
aaughter)
addressed the House, and said that having had
con-
versation with the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that Hon.
Member informed him he did not intend to
tee word
" balfoonery "in regard to him. He gave him (Colonel
Sibthorp) that distinct answer, which he did not hesitate
to give on all occasions.
Mr. ROEBUCK—If the Hon. and Gallant Gentle-
man will put the question again, I'll answer as plainly
as I can.
Colonel SIBTHORP—My question" this—When the
Hon. Gentleman used the expression buffoonery," did
he mean to apply it to me?—(Laughter.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—I shall repeat the words I used, and
you, Sir (to the Speaker), no doubt recollect them, and
carry them in your min I. I said "He should take no-
thing to himself, though I used the word buffoonery.'
It' that expros,ion is out of order, I retract it.—(Hear,
hear, and iaughter.)
SIBTHORP, with considerable energy-1
thank the Hon. Gentleman.—(Great laughter.)

The motion was then agreedto.
SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. lIINDLEY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
prevent unnecessary Sunday trading in the metropolis.
Mr. BARING WALL opposed the motion, as being
contrary to the spirit of the 13!itish constitution.
Mr. lIINDLEY said a Bill was introduc'eil at the de-
sirsol pers,m; in trade thi'mcdves.
Sir
G. GREY admitted he had advised his Hon
Friend that the Bill ought to be withdrawn last session,
and Was aware that a great desire existed to prevent