The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-02 00:00:00

SEE OF DURHAM.

Mr. BETHEL presented a petition from Durham, praying
for the better regulation of the revenues of the See of Durham.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Van Diemen's Land,
which contained a number of allegations generally against
the conduct of Col. Arthur ; but as his Majesty's Govern-
ment had removed that officer, he did not think it
was necessary to enter into any of the many com-
plaints in the petition, except calling the attention of the
Government to that part which prayed for an alteration in the
laws of the Colony.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.

Mr. Sergeant GOULBURN obtlin,,d leave to bring in
a Bill to amend the law in ecclesiastieal matters; awl to
consolidate and amend the Courts for the probate of wills and
granting letters patent throughout England and Wales.
ENGLISH TITHES.
An HoN. MEMBER begged to ask what day the English
Tithe Bill would be printed, and in the hands of Members.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill was printed, and he
believed it would be distributed to-morrow.
IRISH TITHES—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Order of the Day for the adjourned debate on the Irish
Tithe Commutation Bill having been read,
Mr. BARRON felt it his duty, as a resident of Waterford,
to contradict the statements that had been made in the debate
of last night relative to the sentiments of the gentry
of that country, both Protestant and Catholic.—( Hear,
hear.) They were, he was fully convinced, most anxious
that a Bill such as that which had been introduced by his
Majesty's Government should receive the assent of that House.
All the most influential landed proprietors, all the men of pro-
perty and station—the magistracy, and even the clergy in his
part of the county—were most anxious that the measure of
his Majesty's Government should pass; and that this question
should be finally settled.—( Hear.) There could not be a
greater delusion practised on the people of England, than
to say that this was a Catholic feeling-. He could assure the
House and the English people, tinit Prote.tanLi of /cciand
were heartily sick of agitation, and so were the Catholics
of property and station.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
But they knew well that this question would never be
settled on the principles laid down by the Noble Lord or the
Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite. They knew those prin-
ciples to be unjust, and they would not be parties to injustice.
It would not be denied that all, or at least nineteen twen-
tieths of the Church property in Ireland had been originally
appropriated by the Roman Catholic owners to Roman Ca-
tholic purposes ; it had since been diverted to different purposes,
but he would ask; was it more than common justice to
restore a small part of this property to the purposes for which
which it was originally intended ?
The Noble Lord had supposed that the course which he pro-
posed was one which all men would agree in adopting; he
had fancied it was some middle course which lie was
clever enough to bring forward, which would create a sort
of compromise—( Hear, hear)—but so far from it, he
(Mr. Barron) was bound to say the Noble Lord had brought
forward no new point, and no new argument that could con-
vince any man in or out of the House, that the Noble Lord's
system ought to be adopted in preference to the Bill of the
Government. The Noble Lord had brought forward his mo-
tion for the purpose of embarrasssing, and not for the purpose
of finally sestling,:the Irish question. The Noble Lord had
ridiculed the idea of the Bill of the Government being a
final measure ; but he would ask the Noble Lord whether
be expected that his Bill would be anything like a final mea-
sure after the resolution of the House of Commons. The
Noble Lord must know too well the feelings of the people
of Ireland, to suppose that it would lead to a final
settlement of the question in Ireland. If Hon. Gentlemen
opposite said it was to be a final measure, he would ask them
what they meant by a final measure ?—( Hear, from the Op-
position.) He wanted to know if there was any law that
conld he called a measure in the very nature of the Consti-
tution. Common sense must be the basis of their legislation
before they epouurldsueexdpeheyt
theto kieteigphttheHcoonuntßrya•
rognueiett.thalt ha
d
drawn was
ad
system
men
y3tern
of property into the whirlpool of agitation,
they knew knew they had to deal with an inflammable, a
high minded, and a brave people, and let them
beware how they trifled with such a people much longer.
If they persevered in their mischievous course, they would
drew men of property out of the country or into the ranks of agi-
tation. They had too long treated Ireland as a conquered pro-
vince, and they seemed to forget that there were 6 or 7,000,000
of Roman Catholics who lived within its boundaries. He
calculated the church property in Ireland to amount to
760,000/.% and all they asked was, that of this 60,000/. shouldbe

THE S

wropriated to the purposes for which it was originally in-
tended. This would leave 700,0001. for the spiritual instruc-
tion of the Protestants of Ireland. It would cost 1/. per head,
whilst in France, where no complaint was made of the want
of spiritual instruction, he had reason to know, from calcula-
tions made by men of considerable experience, that it cost at
fie rate of 2s. per head; and in Scotland the cost was 2s. 6d.
Ha implored the other side of the House, if they wished
to save Ireland from the troubles that threatened to disturb
that country, to come to a compromise with his Majesty's Go-
vernment on this vitally important question. The Noble Lord
last night had stated that he should not allow the prin-
ciple of diminishing the Clergy in Ireland, but he
begged leave to tell the Noble Lord that he had
already conceded the principle, for he had diminished the
Bishops in the whole of Ireland.—( Loud cneers.) If they
diminishdd them because they had not work sufficient, why not
diminish a portion of the clergy where it was found they
had nothing to do. It was notorious that in many of the
benefices there were only five, ten, or twenty Protestants.
It was the rich dignitaries and the wealthy priests who ruined
the Church in France—who ruined the Catholic Church
in this country, and who were now doing so in Spain and
Portugal. This Bill was in favour of the Church in Ireland,
for by it there would not be any too fine gentlemen—any
hu fling parsons, probably; but there would be resident clergy-
men in every part of Ireland, who would be beloved
and respected by both Protestants and Catholics. The peo-
ple of England were now too enlightened to suppose that the
Church consisted of great and wealthy dignitaries. They
knew now that the cry was raised by the spirit of mammon—
the cry was, that the Church was in danger, but it was for the
filthy lucre—it was mammon that was at the bottom of the cry.
the people of Ireland knew that the Noble Lord's whole ob-
ject was to undermine the Government in the hope
that in the midst of the scramble he might come in for some
place or other, but they would not be deceived by his profession.
(LEFT SITTING.)

General Lord Ludlow is to be appointed to the
3d Regiment of Guards, vacant by the death of the Duke
of Gordon. Lord Ludlow is a very old general officer,
aid has always been a steady and consistent Liberal. He
lost his arm while serving with the Guards in Holland, and
af.erwards commanded a brigade of Guards throughout the
campaign in Egypt. General Ross, now Governor of Guerh-
sey, is to have the vacant regiment, and Major-General Ellice
14 to be appointed Lieutenant-Governor of Guernsey in his
lace.

'N, LONDON, THURSDAY, JUNE 2, .1836.

Noble Friend's own calculation. The annual income derived
from tithes in Ireland, according to that calculation, was
353,000/. ; from glebes, 86,000/. ; from•ministers' money,
10,000/. ; and from some other source the small sum of 5,0001.,
making in the whole 459,0001. This was the total income
derived from every source by the parochial clergy of Ire-
land.--( Cheers.) This was the total amount paid for the
support and maintenance of the Protestant religion in that
country.--(Loud cheers.) Now, what provis►on did this
sum make for every clergyman, supposing that they were all
paid equally ? There were 1,380 benefices. It was true
that his Noble Friend proposed to reduce the number to
1,250. But, taking the number as it was at present, in 1830
there would be an average income of 2551. a-year for every
Clergyman. Now, before he went further, he would lay it
down that a gentleman of education, having a family to sup-
port and bring up, and having no other means by which he
could make an addition to his income, ought not to have a
less income than 3001. a-year. This, he thought, could not
be considered au absurd minimum. He looked upon it as only
a decent competency—( Cheers.) No parochial clergyman
ought to have less. The clergyman had not only to live like
a gentleman, and contribute to the wants of his neighbours,
but he had also to look to a provision for those he was to leave
behind him.—( Cheers.) He was now appealing to the House
of Commons as gentlemen—(Cheers)—and he would tell
them that there were in the Church, and in the condition he
had described, men of as nice feelings as gentlemen as any to
whom he was now addressing himself.—(Cheers.) He (Lord
Stanley) would assume that :300/. was not too much for
each parochial clergyman. His Noble Friend proposed to
reduce the number of benefices to LTA ; but there were nu-
merous applications in Ireland to have new churches built,
and he wished to know, was it intended that there should
be a clergyman to each church ? If that there to be the
case, and supposing the number of places of worship in-
creased by the building of new churches to 1,500, there
would then be only an average income for each clergyman
of 230/. a year from tithes, and altogether an income of only
3321. a year; 1,534 places of worship would average 2501. a
year to each clergyman in Ireland. His Noble Friend might
turn and twist the subject as he pleased ; he would find that
he could not shake the accuracy of this calculation.—( Cheers. )
He ( Lord Stanley) would defy contradiction to his statement.
His Noble Friend proposed first to reduce the number of be-
nefices to 1,250, and then to assign the duties of these bene-
fices to 1,009 gentlemen, with a graduated scale of income,
the maximum being 3001. He found by this scale that his
Noble Friend would give to 79 clergymen an income below
2001. a-year, and his Noble Friend was actually prepared to
bind himself down to starve 129 clergymen on an income of
100/. a year.—( Cheers.) He thought he had satisfactorily
shown,by the total amount of the income of the Church of Ire-
land, that so far from its being a bloated, pampered Church, it
had scarcely the means of affording a decent competency to its
parochial clergy.—(Cheers.) Now what he would propose
as a better arrangement than that in the contemplation of his
Noble Friend would be this :—Suppose the number of be-
nefices to be 1,250, out of that number he would allot an
income of 300/. a yeas to each of 800 benefices, where the
Protestant population did not exceed 500 in each. To a
second class of parochial clergy, where the Protestant
population did not exceed 2,000, he would give an in-
come of 4001. a year ; and where the Protestant population
exceeded 2,000, he would give to each Clergyman an income
of 500/. a year. Let this be the height to which any Clergy-
man's revenue could extend. Now if this small scale of in-
comes were adopted it would only exceed the total amount of
income stated to belong to the Church by 5,0001. a year.—
(Loud cheers.) Besides the deductions made by the Church
Temporalities Bill, his Noble Friend proposed a further deduc-
tion of tao-and-a-half per cent. Why this was to be done he
could not tell, but it seemed that when the income exceeded
a certain sum, or supposed zero, there was to be a deduction
of two-and-a-half per cent. His Noble Friend said that
there were two many benefices in Ireland, and therefore he
would reduce them to 1,250. Now he (Lord Stanley) would
deal with the whole subject both of Propestant population
and number of benefices, and he would show that the number
of benefices was not too great. Taking an average of the
Protestant population, there was the number of 700 to each
benefice.

Lord J. RUSSELL, as we understood, said that he dis-
agreed with this average.
Lord STANLE Y—The entire Protestant population of
Ireland was given at 852,000, which, divided by 1,250, the
number of benefices, made an average population to each be-
nefice of 699, being within a fraction of 700.—( Cheers.)
Now, what was the area over which the la.lsettr of the paro-
chial clergy who were thus paid was extended ? He would
give the House a few examples. Iu the average of all great
towns the duties of the parochial clergy extended over an area
of 10,000 acres, or fifteet square miles to ev3ry benefice.
Taking it in this view, there wau:d to 1,236 benefices not
having each an income of more than S5O/. a year, whose du-
ties extended to a Protestant posulatii.n of 700, and over an
area of fifteen square miles. Ho defied his Noble Friend, or
any other Hon. Gentleman, to contradict his figures. He
hoped this calculation, for the accuracy of which he pledged
himself, would make an impression up >n those who might
have led away by fallacious and delusive representations. Ile
knew he had trespassed much upon the a'tention of the ILstis,,,
and he was sorry to say that he should feel it necessary for him
to trespass on it for some time longer.—( Cheers). It had been
said that in the diocese cf Cloyne there were several livings
which lay close together, and this he dist not deny ; but he
entreated the House not to take a one-sided view of the sub-
ject. He would show them how the matter stood on the
other side, and he should take all his calculations and data
frosts the Report of the Commissioners, which had been laid
upon the table. In the diocese of Clogher there was a be-
nefice with a Protestant population of 3,756, covering an area
or twenty-one miles in length, and three miles in breadth, and
the total gross income for four Clergymen who did the duty
there was only 5001. a year.—( Cheers.) In another benefice
there was a Protestant population of '2,023 persons, extending
over an area of 29 miles, havin:s three churches and two
schools. Another benefice had 1,518 Protestants, and was
15 miles in length and 11 miles broad. The living of Granard
had been spoken of as producing the enormous income of
1,3601. But, allowing for deductions, it produced in tact but
9001. a year. Now this was divided into five parishes, having
a Protestant population in each varying from 692, the highest
number, to 265, the lowest number. Each parish had a sepa-
rate church, and there were six clergymen to do the duty. So
that there were five churches and six clergymen to be supported
on a net income of 9001. a year. In the County of Meath there
were six parishes, with a Protestant population of 1,287, over
an area of 22 miles lOng and six broad, with six clergymen
doing the duty, and only a gross income to support the whole
of 3851. a year. In Armagh there was a benefice of eleven
miles long and ten broad, with a population of 4,334 Protest-
ants, and having four Clergymen to do the duty. Another,
with a Protestant population of 3,658, covering an area of 15
miles long, and 10 miles and a half broad, having one Church
and two chapels. He could supply the House with a multitude
of other instances of a similar kind ; but why should he weary
them with a repetition of notorious and indisputable facts ?
( Cheers.) In the cases he had mentioned he had not in-
cluded any towns. He could give one instance where the
benefice covered a space of forty miles long, and sixteen wide,
and the income of the Clergyman was only 1701. a year. Was
it possible, he asked, for any Clergyman with such a limited
income to discharge his duty properly under such circum-
stances ?—( Cheers.) In the diocese of Tuam there was the
living of Balnikill, in the district of Connemara, one point of
which was fifty miles distant, and the nearest point was net
within a shorter distance than 27 miles. He could give many
more instances, but he should not weary the House. —( Cheers. )
He would now call to the recollection of the House the reso-
lution which had been passed upon a former occasion.—
( Hear.) The object of that resolution was said to have been
a final settlement of the whole qnestion affecting the Church of
Ireland. He did not see how the measure now proposed
could be a final settlement of that question--( Cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) He thanked them for that cheer.
It proved that they did not themselves view it as a final settle-
ment, or likely to lead to a final settlement. Ministers ought
to estimate duly, and he supposed they did, the nature of the
support they received from some of the Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite.—(Cheers.) Could his Noble Friend opposite (Lord
Morpeth) tell him how many petitions had been presented,
praying that the question of the Irish Church should be
brought to a final settlement ? Was there even one such peti-
i'tion ?—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.) Were there
not, on the contrary, numerous declarations that there could be
no final settlement, that there could be no peace for Ireland,
that nothing less would do than a total abolition of tithe? Such
was the object of those from whom Ministers derived their
support. It was impossible to deny that such was the object.
The fact could not be concealed. Those who gave such stre-
nuous support to Ministers announced distinctly that they must
have the whole—(Cheers)---that there could not otherwise he
a final settlement, that there should be not. His Noble
Friend the Secretary for Ireland called this a final measure.
A final measure ! Why, by the very Bill itself it was pro-
vided that the operation of it should terminate in seven years.
--(Lord Morpeth intimated his dissent across the table.) Did
his Noble Friend deny that they must begin again after the
lapse of seven years ? He hoped he did not misunderstand
the Bill. Did it not provide that the assessment which might
be made now by the Commissioners should terminate in seven
years ? Was it so or not ?—( Here the Noble Lord read one
of the clauses of the Bill, by which it is provided that the ar-
rangements under the Bill which shall be made by the Com-
missioners shall continue in force till 1843, and afterwards,
unless Parliament should otherwise direct.) So then this was
to be the final measure—the final settlement—of this long-
agitated question.—( Cheers.) At the cud of seven years,
Parliament must be again called upon to reconsider an ar-
rangement which they had been told was to be final. That
House never showed any unwillingness to provide for the edu-
cation of the people of Ireland. At the present time
they voted 20,0001. a year for the purposes of education in
Ireland. He felt confident that, if required, the House, in
place of 20,0001., would not hesitate to grant 50,000/. Now,
it was fully admitted that 50,000/. was the very utmost that
could be expected for the purposes of education, under the
resolution to which the House came last Session. This Bill
differed in other points from that of last Session. It proposed,
in the first place, that there should be a reduction of 30 per
cent., a reduction of Si. in consideration of freeing the Clergy
from the inconveniences and trouble of collection, and a fur-
ther reduction of 23: per cent. So far he did not differ much
from the provisions of the Bill. It was not expedient, for
many reasons, that their income should be collected by the
Clergy themselves under any regulation. It would be a far
preferable course to have it collected from the landlords by
the Commissioners of land revenue. In the Bill he should
submit to the House he proposed a reduction of 35 per cent.,
besides the 23- per cent. What he should propose was,
to give the Ecclesiastical Commissioners a power of deal-
ing with such landlords as might be disposed to redeem
the rent-charges, and of making agreements with them,
founded either upon a money or a land security, Os

upon a security consisting partly in land and partly in money,
with a power by mutual consent of altering the security on the
death of the incumbent. He was glad to see that, in the pre-
sent Bill, Ministers had abjured the absurdity of founding their
calculations on parishes and not on benefices. —( Cheers.) This
objection to the measure of last year was pressed forcibly upon
them, but they would listen to no objections. They would not
alter the Bill. No. The House of Lords was to be calum-

niated, and therefore they persevered.—( Cheers.) Now,
however, they seemed convinced of their error, and therefore
they proposed to legislate not upon parishes but upon benefices.
He totally objected to the extraordinary, the irresponsible
powers conferred by this Bill. It did not indeed leave the
Lord Lieutenant much to do, but the Secretary of State and
the chief Commissioner of land revenue had most extraordi-

nary and extensive powers conferred upon them. They were
vested with a full and complete controul over all the interests,
both spiritual and temporal, of the Church of Ireland. It af
forded the most ample opportunities for jobbing. He now came
to the propositions of his Noble Friend ( Lord Morpc-qh), with
respect to the amount of income, its distribution, and the likeli-
hood there was of a surplus. His Noble Friend contended there

would be a surplus. He should like to know from whence it
was to arise. There were 129 benefices of 501. a-year ; 670
of 1001., 209 of 3001., 188 of 300/., and 54 of 300/., and no
Clergyman was to have an income exceeding 500/. except in
. .

towns and cities. Now he totally objected—to this provision
which excluded a country clergyman from any income exceed-
ing 5001. a year. It was not a wise or a just provision. It

was inconsistent with the policy and with the Practice of the
Church. It could be productive of no good, either in a spi-
ritual or in a temporal point of view. The income of the
Irish Bishops was limited to a sum varying from 4,0001. to
5,000/. a year, 2,0001. being the highest. Now, was it to be
said that between 5,0001. and 5001. a year there wag to be no
gap, no intermediate amount of greater approximation between
these two sums ? Could this be called equalization of Church
property ?—(Cheers.) Nothing could be more unfair, or
more unjust. But even taking 1781. as the minimum income,
and 598/. as the maximum, he must tell his Noble Friend that
still he would have no surplus. His Noble Friend, however,
stated with great confidence that he would have a surplus of
97,0001., 50,000/. of which was to be applied for purposes of
general education, and the remaining 47,0001. to go to the
Consolidated Fund. But was his Noble Friend to get no
more—did he expect no more ? If not, this Bill was most
strangely and unaccountably framed.—(Cheers.) If his Noble
Friend expected no more at present, a power must be vested
somewhere of reducing the income of the Church, of declar-
ing a minimum as well as a maximum, and thus raising the
surplus to 334,0001. His Noble Friend made a surplus of
97,000/. by declaring the maximum he should give. But,
suppose he was to assume a maximum, he might then raise his
surplus. If the Bill passed, and he confidently hoped it would
nut, the following would be the situation as to several of the
benefices of Ireland:—

159 at 50/. £ 6,450
670 at 100/.
209 at 3001.
188 at 300/.
54 at 3001.
There was power given by the Bill that in cases in which the
Protestant population was not under 3,000, the income might
be raised to 4001.; but there was no power given of an ade-
quate increase of income in cases where the population ex-
ceeded 3,000. Why were the glebe lands not to be applied ?
He saw no provision for their application in this Bill.—
( Cheers.) It was true that the Noble Lord (Morpeth) was
so liberal as to give 32/. in glebe lands to the Church. What
was the intention with regard to the rest of that property ?
—( Cheers.) They ought to know this.--( Cheers.) The
Commissioners of land revenue were vested with a power of
managing the glebe property. Was it, or was it not,in-
tended to apply the glebe lands towards the maintenance of
the Roman Catholic Clergy ? By the powers given in this
Bill, the head Commissioner, or the Secretary of State, might
appoint a curate or not, just as it pleased them—they might
diminish the income of the benefices, and hand over the sur-
plus for the uses of the civil government. He for one should
never consent to an alienation of Church property for civil
purposes. He would never consent to vest such power in any
Government. It was not impossible that a Secretary of State,
having thus acted as trustee for the Church, might afterwards
make himself residuary legatee. He would never consent to
anything of the kind, and he trusted a British Parliament
would never be found to concur in it.—( Hear, hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) Suppose a time should come
when there was a great pressure from without for the reduc-
tion of a penny tax. Above all, let it be a tax upon know-
ledge—(Cheers and a laugh)—and' that the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, from the state of the finances, opposed the
motion on the ground that be had no surplus. Might not a
Secretary of State say to him, " You have a surplus—there is
the Irish Church.—(Cheers.) You have been improvident
—you have indulged these bloated Clergy too much—screw
them more tightly.—(Cheers.) Declare that the maximum
shall be 1001. in place of 300/, and you thus get 330,0001. to
dispose of."—(Cheers.) He would not trust any Govern-
ment with such a discretion. He would now, with the per-
mission of the House, state what his own views were, and the
outlines of the measure he would propose ; and first as re
garded the distribution of Church property. The present
average income of the beneficed Clergy of Ireland was 3501.
a year. His principal reason for proposing any reduction
was to reduce inequalities. The first thing ho must
.look at
was the present state of town parishes as regarded income.
There were none of the Irish Clergy in a worse situation than
those of towns and cities. In many such cases there was little
or no provision made for them in any degree commensurate to
the laborious duties they had to discharge. The deficiency was
made up by contributions from the parishioners. He did not
approve of such a course as this. There were cases in which
the Clergyman of a town had a country parish also, from which
he derived some little additional income. Even with such as-
sistance it often happened that where he had a population of
8,000 or 10,000 to attend to, the income did not exceed 500/.
' The town of Belfast was one of this kind. It formed only
one parish, and contained a population of 17,942 belonging to
the Established Church. The income was no more than
300/. a year. The arebdeaconry of Dublin was another case.
It embraced three parishes, having a population of 15,599.
There were sixteen Clergymen employed, and they had eleven
churches to attend. Now, in the average taken in the mea-
sure of Ministers this archdeaconry was taken as a single be-
nefice. He would propose that the Commissioners should in-
quire into the present state of the Clergy in cities and towns ;
that they should report the number of Protestants in each, the
extent of the duties they had to perform, which had and had
not glebe houses, the state of accommodation as to churches,
the amount of the net revenue in each, and the sources from
which it arose. He would then propose that the Report of the
Commissioners be laid before the Privy Council, who would
decide in what cases the union of another parish adjoining the
town might be emvenient, and where it would be proper to erect
glebe houses where they were not at present, or to repair such
as were in need of it. He proposed that inquiry should be
made into benefices of an income from 501. to 3001., and the
nature of the duties to be performed. The great objec-
tion to the measure proposed by Ministers before was,
that they dealt only with the amount of income, without
considering the duties to be performed. In this Bill the
" objection was that they dealt with the amount of population
alone, not taking into account the extent over which that
population was spread. With a population spread over an
extent of forty or fifty miles the duties might be more heavy
though the population was not one-fifth that of another
parish much more limited in extent. He proposed, more-
over, that the Commissioners should report every case in
which the income was as high as 5001. and as low as
1001. and under, and state their opinion as to the cases
in which it would be proper that the income should be
reduced from 500/., or raised from 1001. and under. He
proposed that the extent of no parish should exceed 30
miles, and also that the Commissioners should have power to
reduce the income if the population was one hundred, the
income being 5001., but not to reduce it below 300/. He
mentioned the sum of 3001. because it was that proposed
upon a former occasion, when this subject was last before the
House, and he felt satisfied it was the least that could reason-
ably be proposed—the least upon which a clergyman could
support himself and family in any way approaching to comfort.
He would also propose that the surplus between the income
and the fund ultimately to be left should be appropriated to-
' Wards the erection of glebe houses in benefices possessing
none. - A church without a minister was useless, but a glebe
house, however small, could always afford a sufficient accom-
modation for a congregation, and nothing, he would say,
could compensate for the absence of a resident clergyman:—
(Hear, hear.) If the circumstances of the parish should ap-
pear to require it—if there should be a congregation which
rendered a church necessary, or if the church was insufficient
for the congregation—then he should propose that after the
provision for the glebe houses the surplus should be applied
in the erection of a church ; but, beyond these merely local
purposes, he proposed that the surplus should be paid into
the general fund of the Commissioners, for the purpose of aug-
menting small livings.—( Hear, hear.) He did not propose
indefinitely to augment them. No, he proposed to prohibit
the Commissioners from making an augmentation in any case
beyond 300/. per annum for ay benefice not situated within
a town ; and he would prohibit them from making a re-
puction below that amount. He did not mean to say
that there were not some cases in which the Commissioners
might beneficially leave to clergymen incomes of 500/. or
600/. per annum ; but he certainly did not propose to al-
low the Commissioners to raise the amount in any case be-
yond 300/. in country parishes. He, however, intended to
give this power to the Commissioners : if there should be a
parish which exceeded forty miles in extent, or with a congre-
tion of the Established Church, exceeding 1,000 persons, he
should then propose to allow the Commissioners to divide the
benefice, each of the clergymen to receive not more than
300/. a year ; and he would say that he infinitely preferred
such divisions of large parishes, and the appointment of two
clergymen with moderate incomes, than to leaving a large
parish with a considerable income to any one clergyman.—
( Hear.) He now believed that he had stated to the House
the means by which he proposed to raised the fund, and the
objects to which he intended to apply the fund when it should
be raised. With regard to the town parishes, his Noble
Friend in his Bill left it a little vague as to what he intended
the incomes of those parishes to be. He ( Lord Stanley) would
propose that, in the first instance, an augmentation should be
made when the income was less than 400/. or 5001. per an-
num. He believed that he had now stated the provisions
of the measure which he was about to submit to the House.
Having done this much he wished to ask the Hon. Member
who had cheered him if he now thought that he (Lord Stan-
ley) was desirous of maintaining a luxurious clergy ? He did
entreat Hon. Gentlemen, if they really wished to give peace
to Ireland and to settle this question by doing justice and by
making reasonable concessions, to hesitate before they joined
with his Majesty's Government in refusing him (Lord Stanley)
leave to submit to them a measure which he knew met with
the concurrence of those who never could concur in the ab-