The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY) JULY 17
INSURRECTION ACT.
Mr. BROGDEN and-others brought up from the
Commons the Bill for continuing the Insurrection
Act in Ireland.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that it be read a first
time; which having been done, the Noble Earl fixed the se-
cond reading for next Friday, - and moved that the Lords be
summoned.—Agreed to.
The Alehouses'slicences Bill was-read a third time and
passed.
The Scotch Spirits Drawback Bill went through a Committee
and was reported.
The Report of the Committee on the Annuities Memorial
Bill was received and agreed hi.
SCOTCH JURIES.
The Order of 'the Day for goibi into a Committee on the
Scotch Jury Bill having been read,
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said that the Law of Scotland
was in such a state that it waited some remedy or other. He
complained of the spanner in which Juries were selected in
criminal cases which was by the Judge, and of the absence of
the right of challenging. For the sake of the Judge, as well as
that of the Country, such a practice ought no longer to con-
tinue • it was contrary to the principle of trial by jury, that ju-
ries con-
tinue;
be dependant on judges. He should propose a
clause in the Committee for giving the right of challenge, and
should now move, that instructions be given to the Committee
to place the nomination of juries in criminal cases on the same
footing as it now was for civil cases in Scotland.
The Duke of MONTROSE would not consent to exchange
a practice in which no inconvenience had been pointed out to
exist, for a theory which might appear to be better than that
practice.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was understood to object V to
,the alterations proposed by the Bill, and still more so to those
which the Noble Earl wished to introduce. Unless their Lord-
ships were satisfied that the system was wrong throughout, they
ought not to pass such a Bile
Viscount MELVILLE contended that the criminal law of
Scotland answered for that country, and that she had no cause
.to regret the system of law which she possessed. He should
however have no objection to the Bill, because it did not go
too far • and lie thought that whatever alterations were intro-
duced should be introduced gradually. But on that ground he
should oppose the instructions moved by his Noble Friend. .
The Earl of LAUDERDALE should only move them for
the purpose of their being entered on their Lordships' Journals.
After a few words from the Marquis of Burs:, the motion
was pia and negatived, and the House resolved itself into a
Committee. V
The Earl of LAUDERDALE proposed a clause for giving
'and regulating. the right and mode of challenging jurors in
criminal cases in Scotland.
This clause having V been negatived, the House resumed,
and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
KING'S SILVER IN WALES
The -Marquis of LANSDOWN had been requested by
his Noble Friend (Lord Cawdor,) who was unavoidably absent,
to move the Order of the Dssy for resuming the adjourned de-
bate on his motion for an Address
.to his Majesty respecting
the application of the Fines levied in Wales under the name of
King's Silver. He had been also desired to se,y,, that his Noble
Friend's object at present was only to elicit the opinion of the
House, and especially of Noble .and Learned Lords, on the
subject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR understood that in conse•
quence of an arrangement which had taken place dUring his
late ;Majesty's reign, that species of revenue had for sixteen
years not been accounted to him but to the public. Since the
.Accession of the present King a new contract had been made,
and it was the opinion of the Attorney-General that this parti-
cular income had become part of the public revenue. He found
however, that ever since the time of King William, hereditary
pensions had been charged on that fund, as well as on other
funds belonging to the Crown. One thing was clear, and that
was, that whether the King's silver formed part of the revenue
of the Crown or of the public, the King could do nothing if
their Lordships were to address him on the subject; bat what
ever was done must be done by Act of Parliament.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, after what he had heard,
thought he could not better fulfil the intentions of his Noble
Friend, than by withdrawing his motion.
'GREEK HOSTAGES.
Earl GROSVENOR rose to make the motion of which lie
had given notice on this interesting and important subject.—
The House had been occupied during the present Session in
inquiring into the distresses of agriculture in this country,. into
those of nearly the whole population of Ireland, and into the
state of that most disgraceful traffic, the Slave Trade, which
to its immortal honour Parliament had abolished, and which
England was endeavouring to prevail over other nations to
abolish also. He trusted, therefore, that their Lordships would
not think it unworthy of their dignity to consider the state of
unfortunate Christian slaves, on whom cruelties had been com-
mitted, which had excited the greatest horror throughout the
country. He should not enter into the causes of the war be-
tween Turkey and Greece, and should not examine whether it
had arisen from the voluntary impulse of the latter, or froM
the intrigues anti treachery of Russia. All that it was neces-
sary to know was, that such an horrible warfare existed ; and
all that it was important to ascertain was, whether by adopt-
ing a different system his Majesty's Ministers might not put
an end to it. However this might be, no sooner had it ap-
peared that Russia was not going to war, than that moment
had been chosen by the Turks to massacre or lead into capti-
vity, the whole population of Scio, and to murder the hostages
from that island at Constantinople. It was said that a pledge
had been obtained from the Divan by the British Ambassador,
that these anticipated cruelties should not be committed, and
this assertion had not been contradicted. That pledge, how-
ever, if it had really been given, had been -set at nought,
and all the apprehended atrocities had taken place. He did
not mean to say that that should be a cause of war ; but it
would justify this country and all others in withdrawing from
any connection with such detested and detestable barbarians,
and drawing a cordon sanitaire round Turkey. There it was
more wanted than on the Spanish frontier, where it only served
to cause the disturbances which afflicted Spain, and where its
existence ought to be remonstrated against by his Majesty's
Ministers if they did their duty. If, however, Ministers would
not break otf all communication with Turkey, they ought at
least not to show it any favour. They professed that they had
not done so, but strong suspicions to the contrary prevailed.
Let their Lordships look at that Turkish frigate which was now
arming in the River Thames. If it were true that his Majesty's
Ministers had furnished it with arms and ammunition, or had
connived at the employment of a single Englishman on board,
let them recollect that they were amenable to their own Acts (the
Foreign Enlistment Prevention Bill), and that they might fall
into the snare which they had spread themselves. He knew he
should be told that whatever cruelties the Turks had committed,
the Greeks had also been guilty of some. Tripolitza, however,
was the only place where that charge could be maintained
against the Greeks, and even there the most horrible atrocities
had been' committed by the Turks upon numerous Greek hos-
tages, before the capture of that city, and the destruction of a
large number of Turks,' by the Grecian arms. So that cruelty
had provoked cruelty. There was no part of England where
the people did not feel anxious for the success of the Greek
cause, whose issue must be, independence or extermination.
He attributed the extraordinary conduct of his Majesty's
Ministers to their apprehensions of the increasing strength
of Russia. He had not any doubt, that she might be en-
' deavouring to extend her dominions towards the West, and
to assume a power on the sea, to which it would be lowering
the dignity of England to subinit: But whatever fear of her
might be entertained with respect to Poland and other parts,
none could be excited by Greece. On the .contrary,i f all na-
tions united in making Greece an independent Stare, would
become a barrier against which the gigantic power of Russia
would be broken. But even if this were not the case, he would
rather,risk any thing than allow the Turks to accomplish the
subjugation and extirpation of the Greeks. The Noble Earl
concluded by moving, a That an humble address be presented
to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to
-order that there be laid before the House copies or extracts of
all dispatches received from his Majesty's Ambassador at Con-
stantinople, relative to execution of the Hostages there anal
at Scio."
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could scarcely believe that there
was a precedent for such a motion. The question was an act
of cruelty committed by the Government of Turkey, on whom ?
—on its own subjects. What right had this country to interfere

•
7.7 -; 1, •

THURSDAY, JULY 18, 1822.

With the conduct of another Government taivards its own sub-
jects ? How, far might not such a principle be carried ? - Let
England make the ease its own. Let it be supposed that an
insurrection in this country had rendered the employment of a
military force-necessary to put- it down, and that it had been
done under circumstances which appeared highly cruel to fo-
reign nations, what would their Lordships or the country say,
if the Ministers of France or- of Spain interfered in a case be-
tween the Government of -England and its own subjects ? He
allowed that there were cases in which a nation might interfere
with the internal concerns of:Zanother, but that was only when
her own safety -was at ,‘stake. This was not one of that
kind. Mit did 'he mean to say, that if a great act of cruelty
were on the eve •of being committed, and that it was in
the power of a British Ambassador, through the personal
influence with which circumstances might have invested
him to prevent it, he should not use that influence for
such a purpose? Far from it, and there was no one who
knew Lord Strangford, who would not believe that he would
not exert all his personal influence to prevent enormities
of that kind ; but not on the ground of right. Indeed, he
was persuaded that, by adopting the motion of the Noble Earl,
instead of facilitating such Interference in future cases, the
House would.prevent it from havint, any effect.,, as it was not
'on public right that itought to be founded. 'Lase Noble Lord
had alluded to the interference of this country with respect to
the Slave Trade : that was not an interference between a Go-
vernment and its own subjects, but one between the States of
Europe and the inhabitants of Africa, over whom those States
possessed no rights Whatever: That interference, too, had
arisen from our restoring various Colonie's to those countries
at the conclusion of peace ; for what could be fairer than to
attach some-conditions to the great advantages which we re.,
placed in their hands? He should not enter into the nature
of the contest between` the Turks and the Greeks : it was
true that most horrible 'scenes had taken place, but the
Noble Earl would be mistaken' if he believed 'they were
all on one side, and if he supposed that, with respect to the'
transactions at Scio, 'the first horrors had been committed
by the Turks. This, he would admit, was no palliation of,the
conduct of the latter, and still less for the flagitious act per--
petrated at Constantinople. With respect to the charge of,par-
tiality on the part of his Majesty's Government,lt was unjust
and unfounded ; they had observed the strictest neutrality.
There was undoubtedly a vessel here, but it was a Turkish
frigate sent by the Paella of Egypt antecedent to the insurrec-
tion of the Morea, partly laden with merchandize, and partly
with curiosities for 'the-British Museum. She had come in the
character of a merchant Vessel, and having brought those arti-
cles to this country, had undergone the necessary repairs. She
had afterwards applied to be armed, but arms, stores, and all
kinds of ammunition had been positively refused. Such was
the real state of the case on which a charge of 'partiality had
been grounded.
Lord HOLLAND conceived that the Noble Earl must have
misunderstood the words of the motion, when he had taken it
for one of interference in the concerns of other nations,, and
had said that it had no precedent. It was nothing snore than
what the Noble Lord had done himself last year previous to
discussing the affairs of Naples, when he had moved for the
correspondence of' Sir 'William A'Court, giving an account of
the events in that country. His Noble Friend had asked whe-,
ther it was true that the Government of this country.ha4 gua- '
ranteed the safety of the hostages massacred by Turkey, and
to this the Noble Earl bad made no answer. There was no
Man of common feeling who was not interested in the success
of the Greeks. He did not wish to interfere with the policy
and conduct of this
.country, which must be regulated by cir-
cumstances, but if such an aspersion had been thrown on, the
character of Great Britain as that she assisted the horrible ty-
ranny of the Turks, it became Parliament to vindicate her
and Ministers thbmselves from a species Of calumny most dis-
raceful to any country. He did not charge the Noble Earl
with such a partiality, but if such a suspicion existed in Ea-
rope, i'z,was his ditty to justify the country by producing the
corresponde”ee of the British Minister at Constantinople. If
lie could give is satisfactory an explanation on that point as he
had done with' respect-to the Turkish frigate, an explanation
which could le-ave no doubt on any mind, why should he with-
hold it ? Let the House and the Country have as clear an an-
swer with respect to the hostages of Scio and the massacres
there, and they would be satisfied.
The Earl of DIVERPOO,L had not understood that any
question had been put to him, , whether the British Ambassa-
dor at Constantinople had guaranteed the life of the hostages
front Scio. Now that he understood such a question to have
been put, he had no difficulty in saying that no such guarantee
ever could be, or was ever given.
The question was then put, and the motion negatived with-
out a division.