The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-25 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIADIEN T.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 24.

The Earl of YARBOROIiii pre•ent&d a petition
frcirn _Hampshire, complaining of agrcultural niatress,
and pray;ng for a revision of local taxation.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.

On the motion of the Mniquis of LANSDOWNE,
their Lordships resolved thems.zlves into C,:nimittee on
the Navigation•Uws Repeal Bill, Lord Bekuulont in the
chair. _

see_
On the clause enacting that the measure shall come
into operation on the Ist January, 1850, being proposed,
The Earl of ELLEN BOROUGH movcd that the
word " one" should be added, so that the Bill should not
come into operation until January, 1851. lle said the
amendment in no way affected the principles of the 'nee
sure, and was only intended to render the change more
gradual, and enable the shipowner to prepare to meet
the competitio❑ which he would have to eecounter from
foreigners. The time at present specified in the Bill,
namely, seven months, was too short, us there were now
many vessels departing, or about to depart, from home
ports for foreign ports, which, at the expiration of that
term, would be in such foreign ports. Now as the ship-
owner, in order to be able to compete with the foreigner
would have to reduce his expenses of wailing, it would
manifestly be very inconvient tor him to have to make
the economical changes necessary, such as a reduction
of crews, masts, sails, &c., in a foreign port. He also
urged that in the present agitated state of the internal
affairs of foreign ceur►tries, it would be very inexpedient
to enter into negotiations fur reciprocsl treaties, and that
time ought to be given to enable such negotiations to
be carried on with the care and prudence they re-
quired. Another reason why it was advisable to post-
pone the period was, that it was desirable that the alter-
ation should come into force during the sitting of Par-
liament, so that Ministers might be stimulated by the
questions that would, be put to them to enter into and
carry on transactions with foreign powers for obtaining
such reciprocal advantages.—(Hear.) A very import-
ant point which required time for its cousideratiou, and
which would materially bear on the question, was with
regard to the masters of vessels. It was of the highest
consequence to the British shipowner, if he was to com-
pete with foreigners, that the utmost attention should be
paid to the competence and character of the masters he
employed, and that the public should receive the fullest
assurance that that was attended to. For that purpose
he considered there should be a previous examination of
masters on all necessary points of nautical knowledge.
In her Majesty's service, if a ship were lost, the:captain,
officers, and crew, were brought to a court martial, and
compelled to give reasons for losing the vessel; and if
they did not do so satisfactorily, they were subject to
punishment. He thought that might be advantageously
extended to the merchant service, and also where the
vessel was lost by the incompetence or neglect of the
master, that the shipowner should be liable to a fine for
not having made proper inquiry, or that their insurance
should be void. All these he considered absolutely ne-
cessary to enable the British shipowner to compete with
the foreigner, and for these reasons he urged the House
to agree to his amendment.
Earl GREY trusted the House would not adopt the
amendment. He felt that great improvements were ne-
cessary, but he did not think them so imperatively
necessary as to justify the delay which the Noble Earl
proposed. In no foreign country was there any excess
of shipping; but, assuming that they were, or would be,
numerous enough to raise such a competition with
British vessels as would drive them out of the market,
still, he would contend, until the ships he spoke of were
built, it was impossible that foreign ships could, to any
great extent, supersede British ships.. The draft of ships
occasioned by emigration to California and Australia
were new sources of demand for the employment of
shipping, and in addition to these circumstances, the dis
turbed state of foreign countries held out a very pro
musing aspect for the future prosperity of shipping. It
was only necessary to pass this Act, he was convinced, to
place our negotiations with the majority-of the principal,
foreign countries, in point of commercial regulations,
on the most satisfactory footing possible. On the
other hand, nothing could be worse than by adopting
this delay, to throw the shipping interest of this country
into so embarrassing a state of uncertainty as would of
necessity ensue. The trade of the S. Lawrence would
be completely crippled, and in other quarters of the
world a corresponding amount 01 practical inconvenience,
and of injury to the commerce of Great Britain, would
be occasioned. For those reasons he hoped the Com-
mittee would not consent to the proposition of the Noble
Lord.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that he could not help
agreeing with the Noble Earl who had just resumed his
seat, in the observations he had made with regard to the
inconvenience and uncertainty which would arise from
delay, and he felt the force of it so strongly as to regret
very much that the Bill had not been introduced at an
earlier period, so as to admit of its being brought into
force in the course of the next month, or at any rate
during the session of Parliament.
Earl GRANVILLE observed that if the Bill were
ready for operation in America next month, it would
even then be quite two months after the opening of the
Sr. Lawrence.

The Committee then divided, and there appeared—

Contents for the amendment 44
Non-contents against it
M3jority against the amendment —l3

Earl WALDEGRAVE rose to move an amendment,
the nature of which could not be precisely ascertained
from his speech, not one word of which could be heard
in the reporters' gallery; but it was supposed to have
t-elaion to the exclusion of foreign ships from the benefit
of the English registry.
EArl GRANVILLE said that the latter observations

of his Noble Friend made it unnecessary for him to

address their Lordship; at any length. It was quite
clear that we could build ships better and cheaper in
London than in any p.art of the world, and the fact that
Messrs. Gt.( ten and Wigram, of Blackwell,
gave a larger sum for labour in Londoe
than they would pay either in America or in
Sunderland, showed that the mere money value was
the smallest consideration in respect to ship building. It
might be said, if we could build ships cheaper than fo-
reign countries, why should we pass this clause? The
reason was this, that the monopoly which at present ex-
isted on this subject was not only injurious to the country,
but to the parties interested in it.
The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND agreed with
the amendment, and thought it unfair to admit foreign
ships to the advantages of the English registration of
ships. He supported the navigation-laws because,
amongst other things, they were calculated to prevent
the necessity of impressment, the painfulness of which he
had often witnessed. The Noble Duke then alluded to
the advantage which an American-built ship would have
over an English-built ship in times of peace and war. In
the former case, the American ship could trade on the
American coast, while the English ship could only take
in ballast, and in the latter the English ship could only
leave port in convoy; whereas the American ship would
be able to go where it pleased. He looked upon the na-
vigation-laws as necessary to the maintenance of our
mercantile marine, which he believed to be essential to
the continuance of our greatness.
The Earl of CADOGAN supported the amendment.
The Earl of MIN TO defended the clause, and con-
tended that this country was not likely to suffer in re-
spect to ship-building in the event of it passing, for
labour and materials, with the exception of one article,
were more expensive in America than in this country.
He had no doubt the effect of this measure would be to
render ships of a valuablecharacter cheaper. lie thought
on the whole that the introduction of cheaper ships
would increase commerce and the intercourse between
nations, this country retaining her position as a mari-
time power.

Loid COLCHESTER denied that we could compete
with the Americans, as had been stated by the Noble
Earl the Secretary for the Colonies. Mr. Wigram
seated that it cost him twenty-four pounds a ton to build
a ship fit for sea. Mr. Winton, another witness, stated
that at New York they could build ships for from 14 to
15 pounds a ton, and gave it as his opinion that this
competition would ruin the trade in this country, and
he should be obliged to send his son to New York to
build ships there, should the measure become law. The
result would have a most injurious t fleet upon the
great body of artificers engaged in the trade of ship-
building.
Earl 'TALBOT would say but a few words in addition
to what had bean already urged in favour of the amend-
ment. He felt it his duty as a naval officer, to ware
them against the danger they incurred in admitting
foreign ships to have a British register. There was no
doubt that ships would be built cheaper at Sunderland
than in the River Thames; but the Sunderland ships
were built of foreign timber, whereas they used British
produce in the construction of ships built in the River
Thames. There would be a great inconvenience on the
breaking out of a war, from having their seamen sailing
under foreign flags. He hoped their Lordships would
not pass the clause, but adopt the amendment.
The Earl of ELLESMERE said the ship-building
trade had been a monopoly, but he could not but think
that the removal of that monopoly might not in the end
be advantageous, although inconvenience might arise
while it was in a state of transition. He had seen several
monopolies removed at various times, from which great
injury was anticipated, resulting in ultimate benefits.
If the existing superiority of the British marine would
be broken down by this measure, he feared it would be
impossible to retain it. He thought it would have a
different effact.
The Earl of lIARROWBY supported the amend-
ment, on the ground that the British shipowner would
be put in an unfair position in competing with foreigners
whu could build ships so much cheaper.
Earl GRANVILLE, in answer to the Noble Earl
who had just spoken, read a portion of the evidence of
Mr. Minton, who, in answer to questions 8,598, said that
the only item was wood, with regard to which a ship
could be built cheaper in America than in England.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed that by re•
turns of the Baltic trade in the years 1845, 1846, and
1847, the amount of English_shipping which had passed
the sound had progressively increased, and that the effect
of this measure would rather tend to assist that increase
than otherwise,.
Lord STANLEY said that the navigation-laws prac-
tically gave this country the whole of the tea trade with
China, and the advantage afterwards of shipping in de-
tail the smaller quantities of tea re quired by foreign
countries. The Government, however, appeared to con-
sider that circumstance and other monopolies of a similar
nature an argument in favour of the measure.
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were—
Contents for the amendment 37
Non•contents against it 49
Majority against --12
Lord STANLEY said that though he did riot intend
to divide the Committee again upon any other question
involved in this Bill, still there were some points to
which he must draw their Lordships' attention, because
it really appeared as it the Noble Earl opposite had
wholly omitted to consider them. Ile firmly believed
that their repeal of the navigation-laws would prove the