The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

1019,

I
tary career. given a V,',.1• ,Ii K
, -11 OW tAt'.2',..l. ..1 tile I. ;A
Chlreb. lie (MT. 0..i,..r. . ) -1,;,7-1 ~, fi n lir .t.;:.•

t ry

rat_ apppopriltioil bLl'
vvi!.o .ome. iHgh (Lguicrtrq,s Churuh
cotnunt what would have bP.in tuicidal ,kvt
hit pm. Lie ( \tr. 0 0,4. w.) might aT;sv‘,7q- that tILw
fl.uti,tuaq's obi Ittien th 47 thlN, wis proper I.iuri,
,osr sut:h di.eus,ion by [ha .:,;;de by ti v.

al-eaer of de. Mint, then Mr, Shed—(Leigh•eri—in
1833 in reply ta a similar objection. That Right lion.
Gentleman, after observing that it had been argued than
was nut the proper time for changing the appropri-
ation of the Church temporal Hes, went on to say:—
" Not the time ! When is it to arrive ? Before the
Rehrtned Pad a cent it was rot the time until the Re-
formed Parliernedt; here is the Reformed Parliament,
and the time h nut yet come. When will it? Wren
the Whius are in opposition? What! It we are to wait
until their offiieleoev-nience tallies with the rights of
Ireland, we shall have to wait long indeed."—(Laughter.)
lie (Mr. Osborne) hoped the Government did not intend
to move" the pia vIeUS question" as an amendment on
his m mon. Ii thoeght the best definition that could
be given of the present session was, that it had been a
~.saen of previous questions; for on searching the de-
bates be laurel that in no former session had " the pre-
vious vestier," beer, so frequently moved. People out
of doors were somewhat puzzled to imagine what the
previous question meant. It was nothing more than a
Parliamentary kliiir,ht of hand, used to cut the ac-
quaintaric. of an old friend who had been useful in op-
position, but who might be inconvenient to a party in
power. He (Mr. Osborne) did not regard this as a mere
question of money, but he would have the financial re•
formers of England look about them, and remember
when the tax collector came to the doors that a great
deal was levied to maintain an army of occupation for
the support of the Irish Church. He regarded this as
an impartial question, as well as an Irish question;
..,pe•
cause, whatever measures they might pass, so long as
they left the Church of Ireland in its present state would
Ireland be not only the difficulty of a Minister, but the
embarrassment of an empire,—so long would the Noble
Lord be justified in coming down to the House and say-
ing, as he did in 1844, that Ireland was occupied and
not governed; and so long would Ireland remain in the
state so graphically described by the Honourable Mem;
ber for Buckinghamshire, of social decomposition.—
(Hear, hear.) Referring to the past history of Ire-
land, the Eon. Gentleman observed that the Reforma-
tion in Ireland was carried out on the great Whig prin-
ciple of appropriation, the original reformers caring little
about Irish souls, but a great deal about Irish property.
—(Laughter.) Cromer, the Archbishop of Armagh,
denounced the reformers as the Socialists of that day,
who under the plea of reform were plundering and
,poiiating the country; and Leland, a Protestant writer,
reo..rds in his history, teat the gross lives of the re-
former, constitwed a great dravi back to the Reforma-
true. Tne history of th.• Irish Church, in the time of
Ettzsbeth, was written in characters of blood, for that
monareh, though a good Puse)ite in this country, was a
bitter Presbyt.-ri.ii ire Irellnd; and wh.n Lord Straffird
was expo.tulut,d with fur his cruelties in Leland, be
gave as his excuse that his object was to increase the
revenue; so that the Roman C,rtholics were rot bed for
the advaticktncnt of Protestant ism.— ( lear, and laughter )
The policy of Cromwell was explained by one word—
extermination; and it wa: in his time that the Irish
Rowell Catholics were offered the agreeable alternative
of Heil or C.ntitt,u4ht.—(Hear, hear.) 1688 Ir.l aid
gained nothing by, ih.- Efighsh imoortation of a Dut,th
alonarch but persecution; and Witham 111., in his last
speech to Partiameet, a lid lie h iped that all distinctieue
in his kingdom would cease except those hetwe, tt
Papists and Protestants. Passing over the various
penal enactments adopted, he mentioned as a remeikable
tact that Bishop Mant excused them not only as being
for the security of the Protestants, hut al q:, for the
hPretit of the Catholics. When he reflected on such an
excuse he could not help exclaiming—
" 0! tortivatos nitnium, aua si bona norint."

—(l4Rughter.) In 1723 a Bill was passed—and he
wtoild chal,engo the production from the arnals of any
other country of such an Algerine Act—by a c Huse in
wtich it was attempted to degrade the &Anita Catholics
to a level with the slavish guardians of a Mahometan
harem. They all knew how the union was effected; they
knew that union votes were bartered fur Irish bishop-
rics. and now, after a period of 300 years, this Protes-
tant Church in Ireland, notwithstanding its receipt of
great revenue end possession of political supremacy,
stood very much in iho same position as at first, though
be granted that the clergy bad improved. They might
revile the Itutmin Catholics as beggars, but they could

not taunt them as apostates, for their•creed they had re-
ca►nt d through famine, pestilence, and persecution; and
Ireland lay hk•. L rams at the gate, whilst the Estab-
tished Church, like') yes, was clothed in purple and fine
linen, the highest orders in the institution feasting
sumptuously every day.—(Hear, hear.) He meant no
reflection on the clergy of the lower classes, but he im-
pugned the system under which they were ministers.
But it might be said that there was no persecution in
the present day, and why then make any altera-
tion when the Roman Catholics were loyal and con-
tented? Was this so uniformly the case ? Why, he
found the Protestant Bishop of Waterford stating, in
another place, on the sth of May, 1849, that in the last
year, out of a population of 80,000 Roman Catholics in
a district, only eighteen persons became special con-
stables; while out of a population of 5,000 Protestants
280 persons became special constables. He (Mr.
Osborne) therefore came to the conclusion that there
must be something which prevented the Roman Catholic
population from being attached to the present system.
The Hon. Member here referred to a letter written by
Lord Clarendon a*read in the House of Commons last

year, relative to the indisposition of the population in
certain districts to support the authorities in their at-
tempt to suppress rebellion, and observed that if he
were to ask those Hon. Members particularly connected
with Ireland why this was the case, he was sure their
answer would be, that it arose from the circumstance of
full justice never having been done to that oountry; and
from England persisting at all hazards in maintaining
this deformity of the Protestant Church.—(Hear, hear.)
He knew that there was a large and respectable party
in Leland who meant by "justice to Ireland"
tidoenitii) iy of institutions in respect to both countries. He
ta
dissented
Eton) that doctrine, which he regarded
as a tallucy. Chi misforturie was that they had endea-
voured to suit the English law sod English notions—
the result of long prosperity and of the habits of the
English people as a c.iromercial nation—to Ireland. In
so acting, the Goverrment took for example the first
political economize of antiquity, Procrust, s, and had en
deavoured at One time, by p, nal laws, to stretch the Ca
'hobo conscience, aid at another . to cut abort the meant,
of the I. it-h people by regulations applied without re•
terence to their I. etinge an i eustorns.—(hear.) It was
most extraordinary that this prt.ceice was uppli d to Ire
land alone. Scotland retained all fur native !midi utionr,
civil:sod criminal. England trit.d to saddle her Kill'
bench of bishops and an English Church, but So, flaw;
ref ustd to hare them ; end he oeserse i that 1.230/. a
year was voted to the Scotch Episeepalien clergy, wince
money no Scocchman refus.d to receive, beeau e, as h.
supposed, it was spent iu the couetry.—(Laughter.)
The consequence of governing- Scotland through the
sentiments of nationality and affection was that Scotland
was quite an inexpensive neighuour, and required the
presence only of two thousand soldiers at the
existing tune —(Hear, hear.) But, on Ireland An-
elicen laws we're imposed ; Irehand had not one
naive institution, except the constabulary, introduced
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite; it had a rich
Protestant Chtireb; rind while the Presbyterians received
the Regius Loeurn, the 'Liman Catholics were neglected.
Tne cuussqu nee wise that in Ireland an army wu,sre-
quired ut 50,000 men, ilicluiing pensioners and police.
Would it net, there be more wise to rule Irelanci,as
Scotland wayruled, through the sentiments of nationality
and Oft-edit/1? %Vas this system of Protestant ascen-
dency worth the motley paid for it?—(Hear, hear.) Lord
Lansdowne once asked whether Ireland was intended for
the benefit ut the Church, or the Church for the benefit
of Irelieod,and he ( 11r. Osborne) should be obliged if the
Home S..cretary would answer that question.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) What were the use and object of a
church establ shinent? The Prime Minister had ex-
pressed an °pieties-that a church establishment was not
to mouton,' the offspring of the clergy in wealth, but
that it was intended for the spiritual instruction of the
pette!,. aril th. Undar.Seerotary for the Ilome De-
parttnent, in a most able work on the influence
of authority in matters of opinion, expressed the
sentiment that a Government in deciding the ques-
tion of endowment must look to the numbers of
the persons constituting the religious denominations.
The Bishop of London likewise said that the ques-
tion, whether a church establishment was to be main-
tained, was to be only answered by another, namely,
whether it impeded or promoted the spiritual improve-
ment of the people? The Hon. Member here said that
he was willing to place the question on that ground, and
observed that it was curious to ace, when the expansive
nature of Protestantism was talked about, how the Ro-
man Catholics had progressed and how the Protestants
had diminished in Ireland, under the influence of the
Established Church. Ile here referred to different ac-
counts of the proportionate amount of the Roman Ca.
tholic and Protestant populations in Ireland at various
periods since 1672 to 1841; observing
that during that
space of time the Roman Catholics had increased as 7 to
1. He proceeded to say that it also appeared from the
report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction in
183
7that there were 9benefices with less than 20
Protestants in
each; 124
benefices
having between 20
and 50 Protestants in each; and 41 benefices without
one single Protestant.—(Hear, hear.) A most fallacious
way of viewing this question of the amount of Pro-
testants in Ireland was to refer to the report of the
amount of church sittings in that country;-for in the
uhurch which he atteneed the number of sittings was put
lows at 200,
though ontv2s persons attended.—(Hear.)
Ie the diocese of Lismiire there were several parishes in
%filch tIL re were no Protestants, and in one parish the
r...cti.rial tithes were paid to a very fine eirl.—(Leugh-
) In smith, r place (Churchtown, we uudersroi d the
Hon. Member to say) the rector rent to church to preach
•we day, and he found a goose hatching eggs in he poi
oit.—(Renewed 'aught. r.) In the diocese ut Oetury it
might be expected that more Prittest,.uts wou d be fount'
there, as, with the exc• poen of two large estates, the
property there was held • xclusively by Protestants; but
Mr. Sergi-ant Shee, in his t " Ott the Church of
[hire in 1.-eland in relation to the State," related that In
:he incumbency of Cail.n, y fielding 2.197/. ts year, he
observed that the chapel of the R. v. Mr. Mulliegs and
the chapel.of the. Augustin Friars were fully run need,
but that the congregation in the pari:ti etc 'arch consisted
of 87 persons only, many of them cniL3ree, and 10 sol
tiers quartered in the town, and who could not be Wien
firming part of the regular congregation.—(llear.
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said, that for the spiritual
•re of the 853,000 Protestants in Ireland, thew Nv re
tanle.herl two Archbishops, ten Hisaops, and 2 770
clergy. The value of the Archbishopric of Armagh
. was more than 12,0001., and of the other Archbishopric j
istflYo 7,G001, a pion The Bilehop ofCiogher had I