The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

-be +ll7-Alit have added, to certain Newspapers. 'There was an
iatense expectation throughout Ireland that Catholic Eman-
cipation was ultimately to ,be effected by the labours of the
Association. He traced to this feeling the enthusiastic sewn-
. nem with which the people contributed to the rent. If that ex-
pectation were crushed by tae present measure, the re-action
would be dreadful. He did not mean to justify all.the pro-
ceedings of the Association, if indeed all he had heard were
true ; but from his own inquiry he had learnt but little, and in
spite of all he had heard or seen he was still very ignorant of
the real nature of the Catholic Association. There were many
others in the same state of ignozance with himself. Measures
so important ought not to be passed without solve previous
facts. He did not believe that the Association had done any
'harm in Ireland, though he feared it had retarded the. cause of
-Emancipation in ,England. Where he could not justify the
-conduct of the Association he would excuse it. When they
• were few in number, and the subscriptions were trifling, they
were taunted as not being the Representatives of the Catholic
-Body; and now when their number had increased and their
rent was large, they were accused of wishing to intimidate the
Government into concessions. lle was of opinion that the As
stniation ought to be left alone. It' it were put down by vio-
lenee great confusion would be created in Ireland. It was im-
possible that the Catholics could remain much longer in their
present condition. They must either be reduced to the state of
helots, or perhaps of extermination, or they must be admitted
to an equality of privileges and rights with the rest of the
comutunity. Whether Emancipation-were granted now, or at
a liner period, sill it must be granted, orethee country- would be
• reduced to the most lamentable state ofaliaorder, rebellion, and
ruin.
Sir N. CO um-ICIEST said, that he had ,always been the
advocate of Catholic Emancipation, yet as that measure was'
_ deferred on satisfactory grounds, he felt it his dusty, in the
mean time, to vote for the proposition of the Right lion. Se-
cretary for Ireland. Allowing a great deal for popular &fens-
eacence, and the excited passions of a large assembly, still
he could not overlook the systematic attempts of the Catholic
Association to innate and disturb the country. They had
formed themselves into a most tremendous tribunal, and had
levied taxes by the most despotic agents. The Hon. Baronet
read a letter from one of the agents of the Association to a
Gentleman in the South of Ireland, who had persuaded his te-
nantry not to pay the rent. The letter-writer hoped this was
not true, because if it were he should be obliged to declare his
name and offence to the Catholic Association.—(Cries of hear !)
—lle wished to see Ireland governed, not in this way, but by the
medium of the laws. ,He never wished that Ireland should hold
its tranquillity by so precarious a tenure as the will of a self-
constituted Association.—( Hear !)—The present tranquillity of
that country be ascribed to other causes, to the judicious exer-
cise of the extraordinary powers entrusted to Government, to
the impaoved condition of the people, and to the increased at-
tention paid to theinwants, aided by English capital, English
habits, and English example —(H ear !)-As he did not believe
that the Cailtolic Association furnished any such desirable as-
sistance, and as it outraged Protestant feeling without advanc-
ing Catholic EmancipatisT„, he should vote for
.its suppression.
Colonel DAVIES said that he was ready to admit cases
might arise where strong measures like the present would be
necessary and just. In any such emergency, if the Catho-
lic Association were brought within the limits of the neces-
sity, he would readily join in voting for new and severer
laws, and for aiding, if it were necessary, such , laws bjenilte
-power of the Government. But he did not belinve.srliia was
now the cause, and he was convinced that thesmeasure now
submitted to the House, instead of alayiag:.any- unquietaspirit
in Ireland, would only inflanin and make -it more dangerous.
Some part of the measure appeared to aim at the
_Orange
.Associations ; but when he considered who., the reputed framer
of the Bill was, when he recollected that Noble Lord's (Lord
Eldon) sagacity and known ?pinions he could not but suspect
it to be done for the purpose of blinding the Catholics of Ire-
land. If these Orange Associations were put down, they would •
start up in another way. The Bill was directed against So-
cieties which excluded any one or more religious sects. Sup-
pose the Orange Societies were put down, they would be opened
as Clubs, to which all religions were eligible. But as all mem-
bers ultist be elected by ballonnone but Protestants would be cho-
sen. The Catholic Association might do the 'same, and so far
the Bill would be a complete failure. As to the oaths to be taken,
every one who was acquainted with the state of Ireland must
know that the oaths were necessary, inasmuch as the Orange-
men were held by a stronger bond than that of hatred to the
Catholics, and a wish to retain their usurped power. The
troth was that the Bill struck at the Catholic Association
alone, and the Orange Association.% would be left untouched.
He was not the advocate of Catholic Emancipation, nor of the
. Catholic Association, but wished to keep a neutral position.—
It was beneath the dignity of Parliament to take notice of
the speeches delivered in that Association. The Right Hon.
Secretary had greatly overrated the Catholic rent, when he
. stated it at 160,000/. per annum. It was evidently falling off
until the violent intentions of Government were made known,
- and then the feelings of the people were roused, and they in-
creased their subscriptions. Even now there were massy-parts
of the country where not a shilling bad been contribated. Ile
„.• did not believe that Ensanbittation, if granted, would do so
.mach towards tranquilizing Ireland, as would a better and
;nore impartial administration of justice. The present measure
would not assist to improve the administration of justice, but
-would exasperate and insult the feelings of 'the Catholics, and
he should therefore vote against it.
Mr. DOGHERTY observed that it had been his lot more
• than once to bear testimony to the opinion, that the:Catholic
body had not so great an enemy asnire•Catholic Association ;
and if he-had before airy doubt upon that point, the two speeches
that the 1-loinse had heard would justify the observation. The
Ga.lant Colonel who spike last had told them, that he had
always been against the Catholic claims. but he sopportednhe'l
aeCatholie Association. ellis. litiribitiable 'Velentl (for so he
hoped -he might lie -permitted to call him) who had spoken
'E.:air lint one, the Member for Cork, bad stated that he
had always supported the Catholic claims, .but at the same I
titre he had said, that he should vote for putting down I
the Catholic Association. He had never bad an opportunity

• of givin:,,an opit:ion upon that great question Catholic Ernanci-
. patien. In that house no occasion had beenafforded to him, and
cut of it he had carefully abstained from expressing his wishes,
—wialen were most ardent in behalf of the Catholic cause. He sin-
, tet7-dy hoped that no intemperate conduct on the part of the Ca-
• tholic body, no obstinate perseverance in a course that could not
he tolerated, would prevent him from giving that vote, that he so
n;:azh desired to give, which he always halved would be a bles-
sin,g to the country. He claimed no merit for this feeling;-it
was that of every one of his Hon. Friends around him ; but this
was not a question of feeling. Every one would much more
m-i:lingly take the popular side of a question, anal therefore it
was that upon this difficult, delicate, and momentous question,
respected the opinions or those had come to the deter-
- minal.!on they had come to. Ife 'Was sorry that he had been
led so much as he even had be'eti into what was called the Ca-
•tholic Question. It was beside the question a little ; but it was
-.iro;mssible to approath'the measure before the House without
- going fully as much as he had done into it. He thought that
no one could ;Achy that the Association which was now existin,,
io Ireland.fiad been carrying on proceedings at variance with
the An- alarm 'was now general amongst the
PrOeeStants, and in his mind in was a just alarm. It was an
-4-piehension existing amongst the Protestant body generally
not particularly amongst the Orangemen ; but every sober,
rational, and well regulated man, who viewd the subject with
calmness, and without the feelings of "arty, considered this
association as subversive of the best interests of Ireland. The
Hon. Member then went en to state, that it was an undeniable

fact, and well known to every person acquaLited with the his-
tory cf this country, that the political vice of the Irish nation
consisted iatheir proneness to indulge in illegal conventions_
as the grand evil which afflicted England from time to time was
the prupensity of the-people to. break oot into sudden and vio-
lent enpressions of their feelings. , In other words, convention
waa the curse of Ireland, and a mob the evil most to be appre-
hended in England. He Would maintain that the object of the
Catholic Association .was to overawe Parliament into conces-
sions or connivance, and that it -Was impossible there could exist
any freedom of, sentiment or argument calculated to lead the
louse to a wise- determination on the subject of Ireland, if it
• was to be joist down by the daring efforts of the Catholic Asso-
ciation. No other delegated body that had preceded it had ever
ventured to go to the same lengths as this hail done. The Hon.
-Member for Northampton (Capt. Moberly) had said Ministers
had offered no proof to the llouse, even of the existence of the
Catholic Association. The speech of the Hon. Gentleman him-
self had proved it • for he had informed the Ilouse that he was
present at one of their meetings. Ile likewise added, that he
• had witnessed very little intemperance in ,their proceedings.—
He could assure the lion Gent. that he had been extremely
fortunate in witnessing anasaembly of that nature, which had
been only in a small degree intemperate. Others had not keen-
equally. fortunate. lie had attentively watched the operations
.df the Association, and read the publications, which professed
to ide their organs,.and it would not be hazarding an inconsi-
derate assertion to say, that no body of men had ever joined in
putting forth documents so inflammatory, otsoonuch calcUlated
to excite the worst feelings and effects. What was the tendency
of their famous proclamation' to the people of Ireland, but to
produce such consequences ? It had been called a positive
good to the country ; he looked uPon it as its greateat.eyil _an
evil, for the existence of which they should not make them-
selves responsible. The Catholic leaders had established an
AS3ociation-
".To fright the Isle from its propriety.
This they were said to have done,in pursuit of their privileges;
but, he would ask, was •sio•li- conduct argun.ent, or-was it in-
timidation ? Such an Association would not be tolerated an in-
stant in this country ; it would be put down in a week. If
such a body would be dangerous in England, what must it be is

Ireland, whtre irascibility and irritated political feeling were
the characteristics of the population. One who knew the coon-
try and its inhabitants well had said, that there existed in
Ireland a dense mass of population, ses.Seeiag feelings the
most inflammable, ready to mount he scaffold. in defence of
their prejudices, and always easily allured to join the cause
of a foreign invader. This was not a mere abstract ptinciple;
it was untbrtunately no longer a hypothetical case ; it had been
submitted to proof in theonstance of the French inowion of
Killaloe. The grounds assumed by the Catholic Association,
and their invariable representions were, that they only sought
an extension of the privileges of the Constitution to their body
at large, and what they were pleased to call an equal distribu-
tion othjostice to persons of every creed and profession. 1f
they seek for a just constitutional share of privilege, he‘was
most anxious they should not be debarred from.it, but he was
sure: they had no reason to complain of an unequal distribution
of justice. He would assert, without fear of contradiction, that
justice was measured out with an even hand in Ireland : rile
Courts...were open alike to rich and poor, and without distinc- '
lion of religion or party. Two years ago the Roman Catholic
Body had entrusted their petition to the hands of the Hon.
Member for Wiachelsea (Mr. Brougham), and the Learned
anal Eon. Gentlemon had thought it necessary to state to the
House, that the petition which ho presented was one of mere
general propositions, without actual details, and, in short, con- •
taining every thing but facts. In the course of this very day
the minutes.. of the evidence taken before the Committee of
Irish Affairs last Session had been laid upon the table. An
inquiry into the state of the administration of justice in Ireland
formed a prominent feature in the report. Several witnesses
had been examined upon this subject, men of respectable cha-
racter and competent information. The first witness was Mr.
Itlackburne' a gentleman of talent and the highest respecta-
bility, and his evidence went to establish, in the most satis-
factory manner, the equal administration of justice in Ire-
land. Mr. Bennet gave similar testimony. The next he should ,
mention was a gentleman of the most irreproachable character,
and possessing opportunities for coming to a correct conclusion
rarely enjoyed by an individual; he meant 'dr. Day, late one
the Judges of his Majesty's Court of King's Bench in Ireland.
This gentleman was of opinion that the body of the population
in Ireland received equal justice, and were, in that respect, on a
correspondent footing with the inhabitants of England. The con-
duct of petit Juries, he considered unexceptionable, as far as had
come within his knowledge. These bodies were composed of
.Protestants and Catholics indifferently. The (rand Juries were
composed of Protestants only, and he called the attention of the
Gallant Officer (Col. Davis) to this point more particularly,
because in fact the Protestant gentry are far more numerous
than the Catholic. To return to Mr. Day,- he declared it as
conviction, that the consideration of religious distinctions never
entered into the imaginations of juries, when called upon to
the discharge of their functions, which he was persuaded they
fulfilled faithfully. He was not aware of 4ny_ exception to this
remark, which applied equally to every part`of Irel .nd. God
grant ! (said the. Hon. Member) every Judge in that country
may have it in his power cueXpresa a similar sentiment; but in
his opinion they woold,hof, were the Catholic Association to be
left in the undisturbed'exercise of its arrogated power. He could
not admit that any reform in the mode of administering justice
was necessary ; no case had been made out to that effect—if it
were,' he would not accept the reform from such hands. If
.justice required to be purified, that was not to be effected by a
subscription. The Association have interfered with the adMini-
stration of justice, and erected themselves into a body for the
purpose of directing prosecutions. They have, at this instant,
promoted an action, which now stands tin trial against a most re-
,spectable Protestant gentleman. The jury who woujelhavetratry
the case would be in the proportion of 1(1 Catholica to?.' Protest-
ants. This action was, as he had said, raised by the Catholic
Association and under their immediate sanction. The motto
and principle of the Association iSas, " Whoever is not with us is
against us. They were acting upon principles similar to those
adopted by the Convention of 1791, which, as was stated in
the report of the Irish House of Lords, had collected large
funds, turd expended them in the defence of persons accused of
political and other crimes. Under such circumstances, if the
ASsOciation were not only constitutional, but strictly legal, the
plea of legality could not be permitted to avail it, when it ar-
ror'ated powers so hostile to every principle of sound policy and
sehoy. Ile had the authority of the Learned Gentleman op-
posite (the .Member for Winchelsea), on this subject, who had
expressed 'similar seetiments in the case of the Consti utional
Association. The conduct of the Convention of 1791 was
trifling when compared with that of the Catholic Association in.
the present day. What was to be thought if an assembly
should sit from February to .luly, under the ostensible pretence
of petitioning, and should do any thing and every thing but
petition ? The levying of a tax to be applied to secret pur-
poses was the principal object of tile Association. It had been
asserted that the cororibution was voluntary on the part of the
Catholic population ; he took leave to dissent from that opi-
nion. It was a mistake to suppose the peasantry of Ireland
had money disposable to such purposes. The contributions were
not obtained till :the- powerful engine of the Catholic Church
was brought to bear upon the feelings and prejudices of the
people. Ile could not admit the propriety of permitting tire
existence of two Houses of Parliament. The Catholic Asso-
ciation was a Parliament sitting from week to week. They did
not adthit themselves to be the representatives of the people, that
they might not come under the provisions of the Convention
Act, but however. they might cloak or disguise the fact, they
openly professed to be their virtual representatives. They stated
theroselyes not the appointed but the adopted representation of
toe Catholic body. If the Catholics were to have a representa-
. tive assembly, he would rather it were a regularly appointed
and recognized one, which might be held accountable fur
its acts, than such an association as the present. He was
not of the opinion of Gentlemen who imagined this assembly '
'to--posseSs the entire Confidence/of the Catholic' Aasociation: A
Roman Catholic Gentleman of tire greatest respectability (Mr.
Dunn) had informed him, that through not a Member of the
Association, Ire had acted upon a-Committee appointed for the
collection of the rent, but withdrew himself on the institution of
prosecutions by the Association, and expressed his strongest
disapprobation to their measures. His ooinion was, that the
Catholics disapprove of the acts of the Association, •Ile hoped
in God they did ; for if they wouldepot separate themselves
front that body, they would be indefinitely postponing the con.
summation of their wishes,„ The Association attempts to ex-
ercise a tyranny over the Catholic body, and he could very
well understand the reason why persons of retired habits and
reluctant to expose themselves to the violence /of the Associa-
tioo, should, in appearance, acquiesce in their measures. The
Association lays claim to the tranquillization of Ireland. He
was happy to say it was tranquil, but its tranquillity was en-
tirely awing to the wise, prudent, and temperate measures
adopted by tire present Chief Governor of Ireland. Ile agreed;
with the Honourable Member who said he would not owe the
tranquillity of Ireland to any other power than the Government
of the country. Ile certainly would not be indebted ibr it to
an Association whose feelings were utterly hostile to the Con-
stitution. and whose admonitions to the people were, that "they,
would find each field a redoubt, and every hill a tower of-
strepgth, and Ireland might shake off her enemies
Like dew-drops from a lion's mane,'"
It wag, not his wish to impute an actual desire. to theleaders of
the Catholic Association to excite sedition or effect separation
between the countries. They had doubtless said many things::'
incautiously, and without any fixed purposeeled away, as they
;night have been, by tire excitement of popular enthusiasms
anti applause. lie hoped, though the House. should think it
necessary to put sdown the Association, there would exist no
necessity to double the army, as had been asserted by Gen,.
tiemen on the other side. He felt persuaded the Cadrolics
would not attempt to oppose the determination of the house.
It was not from the Catholic Peers, front ...such persons as,
Lord, Kenmore and Earl Fingal, they were to expect oppositiopa
The Hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. lt'illiams) had misconceived
the intention of the Convention Act of 1793. That was an Act
levelled not against the Catholics, but another and distinct-
body of persons. He thought he possessed a little more expel ience
on the subject than the lion. Gentleman, and he felt convinced.
the Roman Catholics would oiler no resistance, but submit to the
of the House be it what it might. Gentlemen of the lion:
Member's profession were in the habit of holding one pre-
cedent as better than many arguments, and the Catholics had .a
precedent which he had no doubt they would follow in this in-
stanne. He alluded to the resolutions of the Irish House or
Commons, relative to the volunteers in 1782. When tire vo-
lunteerssent in their proposition for reform in Parliament, they
passed the celebrated resolutions to which lie adverted, on which
Judge Day, who had been-himself one of the volunteers, thus-
expressed himself:—" The House, roused by tire eloquence of
Mr. Velverton (the then Attorney-General), .startled fvorn its
lethargy, and annihilated the-Convention." Tire -volunteers of
that period were like many Catholics of the present day, net
aware-of the ;;legality of theirseonduct. 'They received the re-
buke of the 'Luse with humility, and immediately disbanded.
That the conduct of the House would be equally decisive on
the present occasion, and the conduct of the Catholics similar
to that of the volunteers in their submission to the authority of
Parliament, he hoped and trusted, for the sake of the-well-
being and tranqinillization of Ireland.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE was .of opinion •that .the
distracted state of leeland had . been -always owing to the.
circumstance that every man, Protestant as well as Catholic,,
which itecontained, was placed in .4.1 wrong position._ It was:
impossible that justice could be pure ; for either the Catholics
or the Protestants must be More than men who did not suffer
their religious feelings to influence thou in the Jury box. It was
the law itself,and not the administration of the:low, which ought,
t r be complained of; -stud until the-situation of the country
was altered, and tine Catholic put in the same condition with
the Protestant, the former would consider himself as belonging.
to a degraded and oppressed caste. Whatever might-be the.
I other merits of the .Catholic Association, it Lad certainly

united all the Catholics, not only of Ireland, but of Eng-
land; and if he were .a Catholic, he should say, that how-
ever they hail frightened the timid, and excited the alarm
of the weak, they had done more for the furtherance of the Ca-
tholic Cause than had been done by any other means within
the last twenty years. Ile was not prepared to say, that ab-
stractedly, this body was consonant to the spirit of the British
Constitution.—(llear, hear!)—But when he looked at the pre-
sent false situation of Ireland, he would say that it was the
smallest evil he could expect. There were other things in
Ireland far from according with the spirit of the British
Constitution. The Insurrection Act was not according to
the spirit of the British Conatitution( Hear !)—the Whiteboy
Act was not according to the spirit of the British Constitution
—(Hear !)—a standing tinny of twenty thousand men was not
according to the spirit of the British Constitution.-7( Hear !)
He did not mean to say that these acts -were unnecessary, or
that the army should be withdrawn. He had always supported
the Government when those measures were proposed, because
he was Convinced that the situation of Ireland demanded
them to avert greater evils. But he was not prepared to go.
fUrther. If they still refused to grant the Catholics their just
rights, he would go no further in abridging the liberties of the
people. He was convinced that Catholic Emancipation
never could be carried until it was brought forward as 05
Government measure, and to suppose that it could, had al-.
ways appeared to hint to be a mere dreani. Ile objected
to its being considered by the Government as a secondary
and not a primary question. To him it appeared that the
recognition of the South American States, or a good under-.
standing with the Holy Alliance, were as nothing in compari-
son to the momentous importance of Catholic Emancipation.,
The worst Government which Ireland could possibly have was
the present divided one. Next to that he thought would be.
one which was united against the claims of the Catholics. But
the best of all would be a Government which would honestly
come thrwaril and tell, this country that the people of Ireland
must be admitted intoe the Constitution. Ile was ready to•
admit that he believed the existence of the Catholic Associa-
tion to be fraught with some danger; but that danger would
not be dimino•hed by the passing of the proposed act. He
did not fear, like some, that the people were likely to be
driven into •rebellion by it, but it' they were doomed to
axoerience disappointment after disappointment, they must'
eventually be driven to disaffection. And it should be remem-
bered that the people were not in the same state as fbr-
merly. They were now taught to read and to write, and
they were gradually acquiring knowledge and riches, which
must invariably carry with them no increase of power. If the-
Government determined upon a system of coercion they could
not stop at this Bill, but must in a few -years call on Parlia-
ment for. 4_ c,Alscrship of'tlie press, a perpetual Insurrection
Act, andoem army of 811 or 100,M0 men. He -was not speak•
tug of present danger, for lie believed all Ireland from the,
highest to the lowest were at the present moment full of hope.
Hut let the House take care that hope was not too long deferred.
If the people of Ireland were too often and too long toidohan
they were not fit for the British Constitution, they might begin
to think the British Constitution not fit for them. For the
reasons he had stated to the Haus* he should vote against die
bringing in of this Bill.
Mr. W. 11"II,LIAJIS looked on the Catholicoissociation as
most inimical to the interests of the Ctoliolic Body.• .If it were
the desire of the Association to defeat all hoPes of emancipa-
tion, they could not adopt surer means than the system which
they pu-stied. The career of the Catholic Association was
viewed with disapprobation by all thinking people in the king-
dom. It was a notorious fact, that religiousdiffrences and,
religious aniniositiex pervaded eve:y.6ms of persons in Ire-.
land. There was no question with which those feelings did
not interfere, and it was die interest, as it was the duty of the
House, to do all that was possible to allay those animosities.
Ile, therefore, would ask those Honourable Members who op-
posed this Bill Of the Bight Honourable Gentleman, if they
did not contribute to cont,nue those animosities. It was on
this ground that he meant to give his vote for the introduc-
tion of the Bill. It would at present become a most serious
evil to give a triumph to the Catholic Association. Ile firmly
believed that he was conferring a great and permanent benefit
on the whole country when he gave his support to this measure.
(The Honourable Member was here interrupted by a noise
made in the passage, outside the gallery door, by strangers:
some of whom were, by the command of the Speaker, taken
into custody by tite Serjeant-at-Arms.) When the noise ceased,
die lion. ,Ilember resumed and said, that at the present mo-
ment the. people of England were, to a man, determined to
resist the Catholic cle.inis.(llear, hear!)—lie, for his part,
reviewed the whole proceedings of the Catholic Board as cal,
culated to do the moet lasting injury.
Mr. DENNIS BROWNE supported the measure. He said
till it was mentioned in that House he had never heard of
either Protestants or Catholics carrying their religious preju-
dices into the Jury„box.
Mr. I) )111 I N ICII It 1:0W N explained.
. .

11r..iL,AARTIN wan perfectly ready to admit the state-
ments made by the Right Hon. Gentleman when ht brought, in
the Ilia ; hut granting them all, he should feel it his duty not
to give his consent to the Bill, as he was persuaded it would
tail in its cifects.—The Hon. Baronet had formerly repudiated
the claims of the Catholics. It would not advance the Catho-
lic claims, if die Members against it were out of the Cabinet.
He should NAs for the motion. . ,

Mr. WA It 11 E should decidedly vote against the motion, as
it ottld neither restore tranquillity to Ireland, nor preserve the'
trariqUillity that ak ,pr-cent dwelt there. The state of Ireland
required a different remedy. In the county of Tipperary, out
of 497 committed under the Insurrection Act, 40 had been ac-
quitted. Should that A;sociation be put down, it would revive
in another shape. That Association arose from the anomalous
.state of Ireland, and wasrthe expression of the opinions of six
people.. . Ile .recollccte4, the • language of the Fo-
reign Secretary, when he stated what had taken place, on the
contentions with respect to the equal•priyilegeS Of all religioms„
By the constitution or Hollantrand Belgium no disqualifica-
tions took place froni'iliff.erence of creeds. In tills country we
stood,Ktill; while all the would ras advancing in the career of
toleration. He believed the Bill would tail, and would place
the country in a worse state than it no ,a was. _ _

Mr. W. W NN admitted, that the present measure would
not tranquillise Ireland, unless accompanied by the great mea-
sure of Entancipation.—( H ear, hear !) —He lamented the ex-
istence of the Association from the injury it bad done to the
Catholic Cause. That great measure would take away the
power cf doing mischief. But if that could not be obtained, he
must assent to.nther measures for putting down the evil. If
Protestant Association could address its Members by the hatred
they bore to Catholics, what would be the feelings of the Catho-
lic.population ? He had , always been hostile to Orange Asso-,
ciations, because, b,,sitles the evil they produced in themselves,
they gave rise to such Associations as the present. Wherever
these Associations obtained, the administration of the law could
not be impartial, nor properly dispensed. ;Shat, at a firmer
period, had been the case m Scotland, where a man, of
the name of Stuart, expressed his astonishment that lie should
have been acquitted by a Jury of Campbells. Ile would
never have consented to an Act fbr putting down this
individual Association.; but the tnewure .before the House
extended to all Soeieti,s. He trusted, -notwithstanding
the predictions ,to the contrary, that the measure would
lee eactual, as speaking the opinion of Parliament, and he
trusted that the discussion of this and the former night would
contribute- to that effect. The measure proceeded from the
whole of the Cabinet. lie would at all times support the ques-
tion of Catholic Xmancipation, from whatever quarter it came.—
(Cheering.)

Mr.-CA ',CRAFT-said, that.till the Catholics obtained their
rights, Ireland would experience similar visitations. lla.d not
the
,last speaker staled that he was friendly to the Catholic
Claims, he could not have believed it, when he saw the Right
Honourable Gentleman a Member of that Cabinet, that, as
a Cabinet, was decidedly hostile to the rights of the Catho-
lics.' 'The present Association arose from other and oppo-
site /Issociatiors,—(lfear, hear.!)—Redress the , grievances
of the Catholics, anti those Associations would soon dis-
appear. lie hoped the Catholics would continue united,
and would press legahy upon the. House and the country,
till they obtained their rights. He had never known an .in-
stance of a Bill being brought into prevent the loyal exercise
of undoubted rights ; 'he believed there was a pretended alarm
in Ireland, though the Government was made to believe the
reverse. He was, therefore, agreeably surprised at the Speech
Flom the Throne. Long before the Bill could be sent
to Ireland, the Association would have disappeared, and
would revive in another form. But to suppose the Catho-
lics would be prevented ,from meeting and collecting money,
was a gross mistake. At the time of the King's visit to Ireland,
the Catholics were the most loyal of-all. But what could have
been ultimately expected when the King was accompanied
by Lord Sidmauth on the one hand," and Lord Londondery
on the •other " the bane and antidote." as what the one
should propose in favour of the Catholics, would be opposed
by the other. Much stress had been laid on the expression,
`•By the hate you bear the Orangemen." That seemed
strange to English ears; but the meaning was,
the hatred you
bear to tyranny and misrule ;and by which they were forbidden
to, join illegal societies.—"( Laughter 1)—No one could doubt
the corruption of the Irish Govvrnment up to the Union. He
felt it his duty to-oppose the Bill to the utmost of his power,
though not from -any partiality for such Associations, whether
Catholic or Protestant. He denied that the Association had
made the Catholic Claims more unpopular than they were be-
fore. Vie reverse he believed to be the fact. The tranquillity
of Ireland spoke for the Association.
While the Association
'legally,•
went on
he would offer no interruption to, it. Tha
amount of the Bent that was so dangerous to the State, was
9,G(M., a much smaller sum than was collected tbr
Bible And other Societies, to whom no blame was ever
imputed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated the

'measure to be from the Cabinet. In .another place it
bad been stated to have come from the Irish,cAbinet. Be was
surprised at the temperate conduct of the Association. It had
been stated as a matter of complaint of that Association, that
thty were all of one mind. Ministers, indeed, were so fond of
divisions, that they had them even :n the Cabinet, which was
only kept together by the.fear of Gentlemen on his side of the
House. 'Eke real remedy seas Emancipation. When "the non.
Gentleman was appointed Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, he
foresaw what would ensue, and particularly when coupled w:th
the fact, that the Chancellor of Ireland went out of town, that
he might not swear in the Lord Lieutenant. In a few years
emancipation must be granted—the real remedy for all the grie,
vances of Ireland.

Mr. PLUNKETT had little to adds to what had been al-
ready
stated on this subject ; he had never risen with so much
pain, nor fslt so much apprehension 0,1 any question. Hearsay
imputation -had been cast upon the measures from persons of
the highest authority and sincerity. lie hoped it would appear
that the meaauresdid not injuriously atTect the Catholic ques-
tion. The safety of the state made the adoption of the mea-
sure imperative. The operation of the measure was not con-
fined to Catholics but to all societies. This, too, was coupled
with a recommendation from the Throne to take into considera-
tion,the state oflreland.—Thus coupled, he could see no ob-
jection to the measure front any friend to the Cathclic• Claims.
He (Mr. P.) believed Ireland was then in a state of the greatest
prosperity, and had shared in the general prosperity of the
country. by the wise measures of the Nobleman at the head of
the .Irish Government. Ireland had been wrecked on the
breakers when that Nietle Lord undertook the Government;
by him the vessel had been righted, and made to partake
in the general prosperity. (Cheers.) —He could rot be-
lieve, as had been stated, that the public tranquillity was
due to the efihrts of the Association ; for tranquillity had
been previously restored. Much was owing to the peace and
loyalty inculcated by the Catholic Priests, often a much ca-
lumniated class of men. Ile never recollected so much politi-
cal excitation in Ireland, and much alarm prevailed among
the inhabitants, though much greater than was warranted, anti
in many places artificially raised. Ile wished to Heaven the
Catholic question could be granted ; but it' that could not be
granted, what was to be the consequence? Was the refusal
to be reaisted or to he submitted to ? Such an alternative
called -for the attention of Parliament, and of the friends as
well as enemies of the measure.—( Hear !)—The Catholic
Association was alifferent from all others. It was not con-
fined to the Catholic question, but was extended to Parliamen-
tary Reform, the repeal of the Union, the adjustment of Church
property, and an interference in all the Courts of Justice, front
.the highest to the lowest. This body had associated them-
selves the Delegates of 1791, most of the Catholic Nobility
and Clergy, and had Committees in all parts•of the kingdom.
se-There were 12 surveyors of the rent in the 25,000, Catholic
parishes of Ireland. There was an army of 30,000 collectors,
aided by 2,500 parish priests. This he ad'nitted was illegal,
elite they had no need .of applying to Parliament. But he con-
tended That such associations were contrary to the spirit of the
Costitution. When such• a hotly acted as a representative
body, it was an encroachment upon the privileges of 'the .Com-
MMIS, and was incompatible with the safety of the State. The
physical power of the country was called out by the Association.
Such a state.of things no Government could permit ; or, if they
did, it would be a gross abandonment of their duty.—( Hear !)
—Could the Government allow such a mass of , physical power
to he wielded by individuals ? These men were accountable
to none, and possessed of no responsibility. The Associat on
was both an executive and deliberative body, without that re-
sponsibility which the Constitution required. What would
become of the Constitution, if the house of Commons could
assemble at pleasure, and sit as long as they chose? Yet here
was a body exercising the same power, and sitting from one
end of tile year to The other. The Association interfered in the
administration of justice, and acted as the Grand Inquest of the
people of Ireland. The Courts of Justice would thus become
arenas for angry passions, and the purposes of justice would be
defeated. Were the Protestants of Ireland to remain uncon-
cerneel spectators ? Must they not form themselves into oppo-
site Associations ? Ile believed the Catholics to be perfect'r
loyal, but they were under the controul of their Leaders, nor
were even the Leaders their own masters, but might be
thrown over that precipice, on the brink of which they meant
to have stopped.—( hear, hear !I—The house was called upon
to legislate in the spirit of the Constitution, and upon the prin-
cipal of the safety of the State. He was of opinion that Catho,
lie emancipation was a claim of strict justice, and the longer it
was delayed it was the worse for the country.—(Che'ers.)--IVas
it because emancipation was not to be obtained they were jus
lied in resorting to other measures ? He entreated that if, in the
coerse of his observations, any thing severe against them should
escape him, lie hoped it would be recollected that he was
himself then upon his trial, and in his own defence it be-
cause necessary that he should put them upon their trial
at the same time. In 1013 lie had come forward as • a zealous
advocate for the claims cf the Catholics, and had in that Session
made a speech front which several quotations had been made the
preceding 'evening. to !thew that he at that period condemned
the conduct of the Government.—(Hear!)—lle then thought
that he could not honourably join the administration.—(lfear !)
• He had since then changed his opinion.—( hood cries of Ilear !
from the Opposition.)—He stated the charge against himself
without extenuation.—(Cries of Hear!)—]hit the fact was, that
circumstances had changed, lie had to ask portion of his Right
lion. Friend (.fir. Canning) though he was not then a Member
-of the Government.— (Loud. laughter and eheers.)—At that
time: the; Lord Ellenborough, with the Chancellor and
others, were so decidedly against the measure, that he despair-
ed of its success ; but he subsequently found that even in that
session it did make away, and subsequently made a triumphant
progress through the House, although rejected in the Lord;.—
He had entered that Houae.under no. particular •influence, and
and although continually acting with some of those whom he
was still proud to call his lion. Friends ; yet, on several occa-
sions, and some-important ones, he diffeled from them in opi-
nion, and acted accordingly. One ins'ance was that of the late
war. He had no right to be called to account for his conduct
by any person, but he would state that he accepted office in
obedience to the commands of his Sovereign ; and he who insi-
nuated that he hod bartered his honour and his political prin-
ciples for place only, convicted himself'; for it would be found
that he had made large sacrifices to both, could the tenor
of his whole life be examined. Whatever some Gentle-.
men might think, as to his acceptance of Office, the Ca-
tholics did rot withdraw their confidence from him ; for
,duce that period, he had 5 times received votes of thanks from
that Body, whom he was still willing to serve; and if the lion.
Baronet would bring forward the measure of Emancipation, he
would find in him a warm advocate, who would not quit the
House when its propriety came under discussion --(Loud
cheers, anti cries of Hear, hear, hear! from all parts of the
licustn)—ln most of the speeches which he had heard on that
and the preceding night, he was attacked as if the whole wens.
of the measure lay on his shoulders ; and the utmost efihrts were
made to fasten a political inconsistency on his career; as even
if such existed, it could have any reference to the subject
before them. If one lion. Gentleman, who had quoted his
thriller speeches, had done so fairly, and had read passages-,
immediately prior to those quoted, he would have found that he '
had condemned in contemplation such an Association as that
which had since arisen. As to the threat held out of separation
of this country, it was an idle menace, for it could" never take
nei
tfislo:eliaci.tirlu—int,he Catholics
Englandbtibut
a smightton perhaps, involve both m one cam-
, separation, it was totally impossible.
but Ireland must accompany it in
:
Still it,svas of importance that Foreign Powers might entertain
no doubts of the integrity of the empire, which might have the
t
continuedeadigto a war.—(hear, hear!)—He, was always
n to be a friend to the Catholics, and was
afii:ic t
still o f
firmly of opinion that he could not render them a greater ser-
viced
e thanles i be
byfo lending his assistance to the passing of the mea-
sure re the House. Sir. O'Connell was a Gentleman
of great eminence in his profession, and was also to be revered
as a father and a husband ; and he trusted, notwithstanding the
wildness of his politics, that lie would have too much good
sense to resort to petty-fogging attempts, to evade'the
tnca-
sures which the wisdom of that House might deem necessary.
r.
TIERNEY said, that it was a most extraordinary
thing, that when any measure was proposed against the liber-
des of the people, the Cabinet were hand in hand • unitec 1 in
carrying the measure; but if it were to conciliate any portion
of the empire by making even the slightest
concessions, then
were they at variance with each other, and nothing beneficial
could be enacted. He was unable to follow the Honourable
Gentleman through all his arguments, for he felt a want of
ability, of strength, and of memory, to do so ; but some of his
arguments lie mild not help noticing. The-suppression of the
Catholic Association was called for without any proofs that it
ass
was dangerous—that was to be • • •umed. Why did ' not the Right Hon. Gentleman refer his proofs, if he had any, to a Com-
iniet.ce, whose labours would place the House in a
situation to
legislate with more propriety and better
effect. 'They were
not then legislating for a small k - not of suspected persons, but
for no less than six miilions'of
(as the Attorney-General for
Ireland had acknowledged) unite' d people. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had said that the Association had *got an army of 31,0)0
men, armed with-_a leathern bag (a laugh), anti a slate to
register names, and officered by two thousand five hundred
Priests. Was it, lie would ask, matter of•alarm that the paltry
sum of 10,000/. had been collected ? Why if the present Bill
were passed, a sum to twice that amount might be collected—
secretly collected ; and was it not better that their proceedings
should be open than'' concealed? The Catholics were driven to
their own resources, and they were justified in their measures
by the speech of the Hon. Geatleman, who said that they
had no chance of obtaining that to which they had an un-
doubted' right by his own acknowledgment—( Hear, hear !)
and that if they persisted in claiming it, Ile would send them to
gaol..—(Loud laughter.)—On a former occasion, when the

i;
measure had passed through that House, it had been re,,,s tectev
the other by a majority of 2ii ; and out of those 23 nO`ovei
25 wore white sleeves—(Loud laughter) ;—and ifthe 6,voi
ment had changed their sentiments, the white slaveld t,
have changed also.—(Laughter.)—On the question
vio-•
war, the Attorney-General for Ireland, who had pre . f
sawn his (Mr. T.'s) side .of th 2 House, took alarm'
Six Acts put him in ilisniay, and something e's"dco
then, and he took a panic, and then a place —(Loud floill,
tinued laughter.)—He still, however, did not deaP%irtfer.
joining them again. Six out of thirteen of the eal.'''.-fy ire
convinced that they held a measure which would 133c,,„15ti".
land, but they dared not mention it,. for it was tav"btle
(Loud cheers.)—There was one Gentleman who, ttil 0
if the measure were proposed, would have hearings i"i If's,.
hearings without number—(Lodd laughter)--and ,ileati°'
they would recoive by way of answer—" You may I,or
it
.again next Tuesday.''—(Continued cheers and laug,„ers°'
If, however, a proper representation were made to that Pie,
he woula, no doubt, rather than resign his place, Ice',
the measure to the feelings of the whole population of tiliok
try. He was firmly of opinion that Catholic EmanclP3lito
been lost solely from the want of firmness on the part °heart',
vocates in the Cabinet. He would give his vote most 01'
against the measure, although by so doing he did not 11',40
be considered as approving of all the measures a the
ciation.
h../110
-,,

Mr. BROUGHAM then rose and moved the 0.01
of the debate, amidst loud and general cries of " 0° °,,
The House divided, when the numbers were—
For the Adjournment —1"
Against it . . . . .__ 253 a
Majority - - - - „Iv-
A second division took place upon the same question,
For the-Adjournment - .. .: - 76
Against it - - - 01
• 153
Majority - ' • - - ' _____.oo
The question was again proposed, but the 0pr:01,1100(
being abandoned, the House adjourned at. Two OLi
Monday.
.-_...,4

INI6
P.A.RLIAMENTARY PROCEED

TIOCSE OF COMMONS.

Pencils, 110 die Februarii, IS25*
ROADS—Dublin and Diogheda, Ross-shire Kirkby.
-and ?lawcs, Boroughhridge and Catliericl,
and Amesbury—Petitions for Bills referred to C°".
-Penwortham, Wigan, Rcnf "
rew,-Lanark and Ayr. "":01;
. and Whiteburn and Dunse—Bills ordered. DcrbY.-dek'
toxeter, Cainscross and Stroud, Hinckley, and SP'
and Bridge-erid—Bills read a first time. frq
RA: EWA —Belfast and Dublin—Order for referrinkTerfc
for a Bill to a Committee discharged ; Petition 1 00'
Select COmmittee on Standing Orders. -Bolton al* dill
Bill read a first time. Liverpool and Manchester."'
dered. • forl,?
DOCKS—St. Katharine's—Petitions from Colchester,eo
London, Portsmouth (;rimSby, Jersey, and Grtii;
mouth, infiwour—to lie on the table; Bill read n el.
I P 0 V P.: 3f E T—A rdwick and Stulbury,L-Birs crlercicret.6
ham—Petition for Bill reported, Report read, all
to Select Committee on Standing Orders. Stronola' pot"

verpool—Bil's read a first time. York Minster, 311'
—Petitions for BIN referred to Committees " VP'
.0
INCLOSo RES —Westorr(Norfolk), ; " 0
and'Aberford (York)—Bills ordered. llockering.,,„3:,ol!
ton :(Norfolk)—Petitioa for Bill, stating tl'atStaao,T4ol3l
have not been complied with, referred to Select
on Standing Orders.
Two PENNIES SCOTS—Dalkeith—Bill ordered. 01)1'
NAVIGATION—Weaver—BiII ordered. Caller a" aP'

Petition for Bill referred to a Committee. Stour s"„,
wich Haven—Bill read a first time. A #
GAS-LlGHT—Glasgow, and Birmingham—Bill read
time. eofig
HlGllWAYs—Ledbury—Three Petitions for Bill, 011
! i 1
„I V

stating that Standing' Orders had not
Petitions referred to Select Committee on
Drt.trtiA GE—Eau Brink