The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-03 00:00:00

ht ti made were made matter of renroAch against them,
and the reproaches were always thrown by those at whose

instance they had made the concessions: If the 111inis-

gees had committed Any fault, it MS that they had shown
too great a readiness to listen to the objections of those
who desired to show that they could establish exceptions
in their own favour. After all the special pleading pro.
ccsses that had been resorted to, and after all the inge-
nuity that had been displayed on this subject, be thought
that no case of exception had been fairly established ; and
11', believed, that after the fulle't and most impartial ex:

amination, must be tdmitted that Schedules A and B
were fairly dratvn according to the population returns.

Sir E.'SUGDEN said that the Noble Lord had com-
plained of being reproached for th concessions he had
made, and had reprettal that those who asked for con-
ce•sions were tht first to reproach him for making them.
The Noble Lord spoke as if these concessions were asked
fill- their private benefit—(Hear, hear)—and not on public
grounds. He declared that the Opposition had only urged
those concessions, withotq 1%/hicti, in their opinion, the

Ball would hats? hued a mass of injustice. The Noble
Lard bed ttnt gone far enough in his concessions, that was
the teal rault, and it was for that fault that reproaches
tykyre directed against them. The Noble Lord represented
that Ministers had done as well as they could, taking all
things togetliek.-; out the statement that they could not
protfed strictly upon any of the rules they had laid down
was, in fact, an acknowledgment that they did not well
know what were the rules on which they proposed to act,

or at least they had adopted these rules without due con-
.dileratiert, a cotitended that the Minister. were

hound to make theinselVes acquainted with the peculi-
arities of the population and localities in each particular
borough bcfnre they brought in a Bill on such principles.
The aThitrary rule which they had adopted operated with
great unfairness respecting the county towns ; and
i❑ several instances that was so obvious that the Noble

Lord had been compelled to abandon his own principles.
(Cheers.) He referred to the discourtesy with which he
.ind other gentlemen on that side had been sometimes re-
ceived; but, he admitted, that it was not so great as had
been represented by one of the publications which in-
formed the public of what occurred in that House. In
that paper it was said, that his ob4ervations, for some
evenings past, were foflowed by roars of laughter. He
knew that this was an over-charged description of the
discourtesy, and that the slight I:ugh which might be
heard cn that occasion was not directed against him per-
_ .

souaily, but was excited by the case which he had been
describing. He the more regretted that such a statement
had been made, because the man who made it must be
aware that it was untrue. Such statements were to be

attributed to an unfair disposition to give a triumph to
one party and to crush the other.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP was sure that the House had always
listened with respect and attention to the observations of
the lion. and Learned Gentleman.—(llear, heir, hear.)

But that gentleman must be aware that it was exceed-
ingly irregular to refer to reports which might

have appeared in public newspaper, purporting
to be the proceedings of the House. As to the objec-
tions of the lion. and Learned Gemtleman to the prin-
ciples of the Bill, it must be conceded that some rule must
have been adopted, and that none could be devised which
should not be attended with some disadvantages. He did

not think that his Majesty's Government could hare
chosen a better test than that which was afforded by the

•
population and the number of ten-pound householders,
taken together, and he was sure the Committee would see
that, on the whole, this rule did not operate unfairly.
The average amount of taxation in the fifty-seven bo-
roughs included in the first schedule, was 2011. The
average taxation of the boroughs and towns in the second
schedule (13) was 7831.—(Hear, hear)—which showed
clearly that the average prosperity was greater in propor-
tion to the larger population. This was still further
shown by the fact, that the average taxation of the bo-
roughs that were altogether above the line of disfranchise-
ment amounted to 1,2001. He repeated, that he thought
the rule the best that could have been adopted.
Mr. GOULBURN only complained that the Noble
Lord opposite had laid down a rule before he had made
himself acquainted with its probable effects —(Cheers.)
When the Noble Lord referred to the average taxation of

the disfranchised boroughs, he seemed to overlook the in-
justice which was done (by taking the average) to the
boroughs in that schedule, which paid a high amount of
taxes. He had no doubt that the rule which had been
adopted would, sooner or later, raise a cry throughout the
country against the Ministry and their Bill.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, that his question had
not been satisfactorily answered. Ile was not one of those
who had ever taunted his Majesty's Ministers for any con-
cessions which.tli;.y might have made. On the contrary,
he had always he'es much pleased, when he saw them give
way to justice.—(Hear.) In every instance in which lie
had resisted the clause before the House, be felt that he
-was fighting the battle of the people.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. BARING assured the gentlemen connected
with what was called the country interest, that if, in sup-
porting this measure of the Ministers, they supposed that
a few Squires front the country would be able (when the
day of battle should come) to contend with the active, in-
telligent, pushing men, who world be returned from the
manufacturing towns, they would be sadly disappointed.
—(Cheers.) He said this only to call the attention of
country gentlemen to what would be the consequence of
:be altered state of the representation.—(Cheers.) The
gentlemen who would be returned from the manufactur-
ing districts would be active men, who would read ev_ry
paper which should come into the House : and could the
country gentleman suppose that in contending with such
men they should not be overmatched?—(Cheers.)
Against such a representation the country interest could
have no chance of maintaining itself ; and lie would ask,
how was the Church, then, to he supported against
the Noble Paymaster's friends ?—(Cheers.) But looking
even to the effects of the measure, as it would affect the
mob courting Ministry themselves—(Cheers)—he would
ask how they were to return to that House an Attorney or
Solicitor-General who had instituted an unpopular prosecu-
tion, or supported an unpopular tax ? He thought that a
Government ought not to lose sight of local, in their at-
tention to general, interests, and he reminded them of the
strength which former Governments derived from having
some of their Members closely connected with commercial
and agricultural interests, as was the case of Mr. Hus-
k.sson, who represented Liverpool, and Mr. Lushington,
who, representing Canterbury, invariably supported the
interests of the hop-growers.—(A laugh.) He concluded
by declaring his opinion that the people, who were the
most eager in the support of that Bill, would be the greatest
sufferers.
Mr. STANLEY would readily answer that there was
no intention on the part of his Majesty's Ministers to in-
troduce in the Bill any such provision as that which had
been referred to by the Hon. Gentleman opposite. He
assured the Hon. Gentleman, that it was not through want
of deference when he reminded hint, that this was not the
time to discuss the expediency of such a clause.—(Hear.)
The question before the House applied to. schedule B only
—(Hear)—and in the midst of the consideration of that
question, the Hon. Gentleman asks his Majesty's Minis-
ters, how are Governments in future to bring into that
House any individual who should have accepted office—
not being, as the Honourable Gentleman rather uncour-
teously expressed it, a mob-courting Minister—if they
were to have no corrupt boroughs—(Vehement cries
of " No, no," from the Opposition, replied to by loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Now, if that
were a question which had really anything to do with
the Bill before them, it was certainly one which,
like the rest of the Honourable Gentleman's remarks,
would apply equally well to schedule A as to schedule B.
There was no place excepted from those schedules which
could be a nomination borough.—(Cries from the Oppo-
sition, " Yes—Caine.") He heard somebody say, Caine;
but he would assure that gentleman, that he was not to
be induced then to discuss the principle of the Bill.—
(Hear, hear, hesr, hear.)—He would repeat his determi•
nation riot to enter into the question, whether it might or
might not be expedient to preserve places for securing ad-
mission to the House of Commons of the officers of the
Crown, without imposing upon them the necessity of court-
ing a mob. It was a question to which the Bill did not
naturally give rise, and it was not the intention of the
authors of the measure to include in it that alteration in
the existing system of our representation. His Hon. Friend
had paid the country gentlemen but a very poor compli-
ment, in saying that, in a Reformsd Parliament, they in-
curred the hazard of being overpowered by the represen-
tatives of the manufacturing districts;—that, in fact, the
country gentlemen generally were riot of that pushing and ac-
live turn of mind, and of those habits which would qualify
them for competin7, with the formidable rivals to them
which the great towns would send into that House. He
confessed that he listened to that assertion with no little
surprise,for his experience of the House warranted him in
affirming that no Members were more attentive, more re-
gular in their attendance, or more diligent in the per-
formance of their duties, than were the country gentlemen
—that very class of Members whom his Hon. Friend
blamed for their inefficiency. On Committees, and iu
the business of the House, they proved themselves as active
and as intelligent as any who could find their
way into that
house ; and he felt perfectly assured, that those who
atinbee
-from
the barley field, as it had been stated, would not
overpowered by those who came from the coal field ; and
were those to be blamed for doing that in the Houle which

they wire expressly sent to do—were they to be blamed
because they formed a class of men who would know what j
was going forward in that House? It would seem that
his Hon. Friend wished to have the agricultural Members
so circumstanced that they might come down to the
House for an hour or two, then go to dinner, to an even-
ing party, or where they pleased, rind in the latter end of
the evening give such time or attention to their Parlia-
mentary duties as might suit their convenience; but was
such known from etperienee to be the conduct of the
country gentlemen, or ought it to be their conduct ? was
it to be accepted as a sound argument in a discussion like
the present, that there should be two Members from the
barley-field for one from the cod-field, thot they might
releve each other, and take the work in turns of opposing
the Members from the towns? Those were really argu-
.• . .

ments which ought not to be offered on a question of that
nature. It was one on which the framers of the Bill had
endeavoured to do substantial justice, on the whole as well
as on each individual case. Before he sat down, he wished
to notice one topic respecting which some misapprehension
seemed to have arisen. It was. st ttcd that the assessed
taxes in the boroughs to be disfranchised gave an average
of 2001., and in those having one Member an average of
700/., and it was assumed that taxation was to form the
rule,—whereas it had been merely mentioned for the 'tor-
pose of reinforcing the arguments founded upon population.
Mr. A. BARING said, that under the Bill the Crown
would lose its free choice of Ministers. If the people were
to have the initiative upon such appointment, and the
Crown merely the veto in the appointment of the ser-
vants of the Crown, it was evident that the Royal prero-
gative was at an end. He would most unhesitatingly as-
sert that the argument he had just used yet remained un-
answered. There were in the wolkhl ortocracies and oli-
garchies ; but he trusted the House would remember that
there were anarchies and democracies in the world.
Mr. CROKER observed, that the Noble Lord and his
supporters had spoken much of the line which they pte-
, scribed to themselves—a line which they did anything but
' observe. His object, and that of his Hon. Friends, was,
if possible, to ascertain from the Noble Lord what his line
was, and having done that, to induce him to stick to his
line. Let the House only take notice of the single case of
Sudbury, wherein the Noble Lord took the title of a Pri-
vate Act of Parliament, confined his view to Sudbury, in

Suffolk, and though the complete and continued town con-
tained a population of 4,000, yet the Noble Lord would
have nothing to do with it because a part of the parish was
in another county. Neither to Appleby would he apply
his rule, because it contained two parishes—St. Michael
and St. Lawrence ; and as to Bridport, he repelled it to
an equal distance, because, forsooth, a stream divided--
which, if the Commissioners of Examination looked for at
a certain season of the year, they would find to have dis-
appeared altogether, and its bed remaining dry. That was
the line, and tbat was the Noble Lord's observance of it,
which, he took for granted, had proved generally satis-
factory. Satisfactory ! to whom ? Not, surely, to that
side of the House—neither did it appear to be so to the

other side of the House, or to the Noble Lord himself ; for
schedule B was reduced from 53 or 54 names to 47, and
then to 40 ; and of that number changes had been made in
two-and-twenty. Then again amongst other inconsistencies,
reliance seemed to be placed upon the average amount of
assessed taxes paid by the different closers of the boroughs
—thus they were taken at 2001., 7001., and 1,200/. Then
in the favoured boroughs the parishes were thrown in, but
from those not partially regarded the population of theparishes
were taken away. Northallerton, after all the shifts and
changes, retained two Members, though its assessed taxes
were only 8281. He would mention Caine, though it
was not in the schedule—but it ought to be in the sche-
dule, and he had, therefore, a right to mention it. The
return stated that the population of the borough and the
parish could not be distinguished from each other, but the
papers laid upon the table of the House by the Noble Lord,
i❑ the month of March last, show that the population of
the borough and the parish were distinguished from each
other, and the male population of Caine was a,certained
to be 996, therefore it was possible to distinguish between
the borough and the parish ; its assessed taxes were6sol ,
those of Mahon were 9501., those of Horsham 9741.

Now, as so much had been said about taxation, in the
large Chancellor of the Exchequer-like way in which the
Noble Lord was accustomed view it, he would just call
the attention of the House to the amount of taxation paid
by some of the towns in schedule B:—Huntingdon paid
1,7721. ; Dorchester, 2,1001. ; Guildford, 1,9601. ; Chip-
penharn, 2,2301. ; Sudbury, 1,1311. Then there was a
parish, sixteen miles in length, which paid but 2271.
taxes, hut it was to have its representative ; while Sud-
bury, which within one half mile square, paid 1,1271.
Lord ALTHORP said, that the Right lion. Gentle-
man had assumed the exception to be the rule. They did
not refer to taxation as a means of bearing them out, they
took population as the rule—as a species of auxiliary.
' Mr. CROKER said, that he had not alluded to taxa-
tion, till the Noble Lord had himself used it as a make-
weight.
Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that the Noble Lord had de-
parted from his own rule ;--he had scarcely, in any case,
adhered to the rule of population. There was the metro-
polis, which afforded a most striking illustration of the
truth, that nothing could be more unstable than popula-
tion ; for that which properly could be called London, was
now less populous than formerly ; for the population had
spread itself outwards to the adjoining districts.
After a few words from Mr. C. PELHAM,
The question that " the clause do stand part of the Bill"
was agreed to without a division.
After a few words from several Hon. Members, as to the
most judicious way of proceeding with clause C, the ques-
tion that the blank in the said clause be filled up with the
word " Two" was agreed to without a division.
[The effect of this vote is the giving two Members to
all the places contained in schedule C, subject to confir-
mation or rejection, with respect to any individual ho.-
rough or boroughs, as the name of each place is submitted
to the Committee.]
On the question that Manchester (including the town-
ships of Manchester, Chorlton-row, Ardwick, Beswick,
Hulme, Cheetham, Bradford, and Newton and Harpur-
bery, in the hundred of Salford, Lancashire) stand part
of schedule C,
Mr. S. WORTLEY could not understand why it was
necessary to give two representatives to both Manchester
and Salford ; and he should therefore move, as an amend-
ment, that the townships of Salford, Pendleton, and
Broughton, be added to the townships already given to
Manchester. The Hon. Gentleman continued to make
several observations in support of the amendment, but,
owing to the unwillingness of the Committee to listen, his
remarks were scarcely audible in the gallery. We under-
stood him to contend that society was so constituted in
Manchester and Salford, that he thought the right of re-
presentation would fall into the hands of the lowest orders,
and that therefore two Members were quite as many as
they were entitled to. On the score of population also,
he thought that their claim ought to be limited to two
representatives ; and on this view of the subject the Hon.
Gentleman proceeded to contrast the population of Man.
cheater and Salford with the population of Middlesex. As
the Bill had been originally proposed by the Noble Lord,
Salford and Manchester had been kined, and he could not
at all understand the principle upon which they now were
separated.
Mr. HUNT said that there was a great distinction be-
tween Manchester and Salford, even more than there was
between London and Southwark ; for in the latter case
the Corporation of London had jurisdiction in Southwark,
while in the former the two towns had entirely separate ju-
risdictions. He therefore trusted that die Ministers would
not for one moment listen to the proposition which the
Hon. Gentleman had made. While the question was the
disfranchisement of boroughs, he had not been always able
to agree with the Government—(Laughter)—but now
that they had come to the enfranchising part of the
Bill, he could assure the Ministers that they would meet
with no opposition from hint.
Mr. HEYWOOD said, that as one of the representa-
tives of the county in which Manchester and Salford were
situated, he begged to express his hope that the amend-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman would be lost ; for, in his
opinion, the giving these four Members to the two towns
was but an act of justice, which had been too long de-
layed —(Cheers.) Manchester had increased its popu-
lation two hundred and thirty thousand within sixty years
—that was, from forty-four thousand in 1774, to two
hundred and seventy-four thousand in 1831. He thought,
therefore, it ought to he placed, as it deserved, in the first
rank. The parish of Manchester, in fact, now contained
as many inhabitants as the whole of Lancashire contained
within the memory of some of the living inhabitants.
Salford was totally distinct from Manchester, and contained
a population of fifty-four thousand. It would be most unjust
to deprive it of the Member now proposed to be given to
it. The Hon. Member referred to a number of other towns
in the neighbourhood, each of which was a hive of- intel-
ligence. Lancashire, however, though populous, had
only fourteen Members, and of these six only were returned
by the people. He trusted he could convey to the House
the deep-felt desire which prevailed throughout that
county for the measure of Reform. He hail become a
candidate with no other support but his promised support
to this measure of the Government, and he had been every-
where received with such enthusiasm as he could not de-
scribe, but could never forget. It was not to him, how-