The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-14 00:00:00

ment, " That a Select Committee be appointed to in-
quire into the levying and appropriation of the county
rates in England and
Mr. R. PALMER seconded the amendment, consi-
dering that the affairs of the county would not be better
mar. aged by the beard which Mr. Hume proposed to adopt.
He did not think, if the matter were inquired into, that
it would appear that the expenditure of the county stock,
as a principle, was careless or extravagant. The ap-
pointment of the officers of gaols, and of all the officers
in the county, was to be transferred to the proposed
board, which ho thought quite uncalled for and exceed-
ingly objectionable. The Hun. Member for Moutrose
said he had no objection to ref. rring the Bill to a
Select Committee. lie (Mr. R. Palmer) had no ob-
jection to that course, but at the same time it
was to be remembered that they could not take evidence
on the subject before the Select Committee to which the
Bill might be referred, and it was desirable to hear
evidence on the whole subject of the expenditure of the
county rate.
Mr. HEYWOOD did not quite agree with the Bill as
it stood at the present moment, but thought that modifi•
cations might be made in it so as to meet the exigencies
of the case. He thought it would not be fair to the people
of this country to pass a general measure, merely because
a particular district might call fcr a change of system.
In Scotland the gaols • ste re selt-supporting; the pri-
s ,nets were made to work for their maintenance. He
stw no reason why this should not be done here.—
(Hear.) He thought that financial boards of rete-
pajers would work much good. Indeed the principle
was not a new one.
Sir G. GIZEY was favourable to the principle of the
Bill, namely, the representation of the rate-payers—
the formation of financial boards in which the various
classes of ratepayers should be fairly represented.—
(Hear, hear.) Looking at the report of the Commis
stoners of England and Wales on this subject, he found
the principle tully embodied, and he was sure it was only
necessary to read the names of the gentlemen appended to
the report to be of opinion that, in the recommendations
they made, they did not intend to cast any affront upon
the magistrates or gentlemen of the counties.—(dear,
hear.) He did not support the principle of the Bill,
because he believed that the magistrates had been
wanting in their duty in the pursuance of
that rigid economy in the county expenditure
which was so necessary. Indeed, on the contrary, he
believed the magistrates of England, being themselves
large contributors to the county rate, had a direct in-
terest in watching the county expenditure, and he
believed they had done so. In those cases in
which they had been charged with excessive
expenditure be found that it had arisen `in
consequence of following out the laws passed by the
Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) The Hun. Gentlema❑ op-
posite was in error it he supposed that they were merely
to fbllow out the arbitrary will and pleasure of the Secre-
tary of State. The Act of George IV. made it
obligatory upon magistrates to provide for the
effictent accommodation of prisoners in gaols, ouch as their
diet, classification, sleeping places, and conduct, and it, at
the same time, imposed certain duties on the Secretary
of State, which were also correctly and definitely set
forth. If the magistrates refused to perform the duties
that devolved, a mandamus might be moved for in the
Queen's Bench, calling upon then, to show cause. It was
his duty to see that they properly discharged the duties
assigned to them. But there were cases to which his
superintending influence did not extend. Fur
instance, lunatic asylums were placed out of
his control; after he had approved of the site,
the further expenditure in connexion with them
was placed out of his power. He was bound to say that
since he had had the honour to fill the office of Under-
Secretary of State for the Home Department whatever
he had suggested they, h.d evinced a 'nest ready dis-
position to accede to—not servilely, but a willingness to
adopt them, or to give substantial reasons for nut doing
so.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Honourable Baronet
opposite must recollect that rate-payers did not merely
consist of one class, but of several, and therefore he
(Sir G. Grey) objected to the entire management of the
expenditure being entrusted to the hands ot that one
glass.—(Cries ot " Hear, hear.") But when he came
to the detuilg of the Bill he was almost ready to
coincide with the Honourable Gentlema❑ ; but the
Hon. Measber for Montrose had intimated that he did
not lay much stress upon the details, and was ready to
amend them in Committee.—(Hear, hear.) As it stood,
he (Sir George Grey) was prepared to say that it would
be round altogether impracticable.—(Hear) With rep; d
to the proportion of the elective body to the magistrates,
he considered that portion of the Bill altogether wi ong,

and that the principle of preponderance he had laid down
ou_ht to be altogether opposite to that for which he
contended.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to guard him-
self' by saying that he approved of the principle of
representation embodied iu the Bill.—(ll,er, hear.)
Sometimes na4gistrates were very regular in their at-
tendance; but it often occurred that there were great
fluctuations in the attendance, and it might happen that
those who only occasionally attended m ght overpowet
those who were more regular, and took a al, ire active part.
The report of the Commissioners spoke of four quarter ses-
sions of one county being held in tour different parts of
the same county; now it was j ust possible in such a ease that
the attendance of the magistrates connected with those
localities would take place, and that a difference of
opinion might prevail in different districts with
r,spect to matters affecting the whole of the. county.
The Hon. Baronet who had moved the amendment, it
he unierstood him rightly, did not object to the pin •
ciplo of the Bill, nor did he; but with regard to the
dmAtili, he felt that some further inquiry was necessary.
Now if they read the Bill a second time, and referred
it to a Select Committee, it would be absolutely
indispensable that the power of the Committee should be
enlarged. Practica!ly, therefore, there was no di trJrenee
between the original motion and the amendment ; and it
the lion. Gentleman the Member for Montrose would
consent to the amendment, the whole subject, together
with his Bill, might be referred to the Committee, which
would be the most straightforward way of dealing with
he question.—(Hear.) With regard to what had been
said about the expenditure, the magistrates evinced
a laudable desire to economise the tax for building,
which must fall permanently upon the county rate, but
as to the expen laurel for assi: e and sessions prostcu•
Lions, it really was high thee that some check etas put
upon it. If therefore this question went b, f.re a Com-
mittee, he should propose to lay certain information on
the table which would enable theta to devise some plan
for checking that growing evil.—(Near, hear)
Mr. HENLEY thought the Right Hon. Bart. would
have done better had he considered the subject more
before he ventured to mike sueh a charge against the
magistrates, as it was well known that they had
no control over the assize prosecution expenditure;
that duty rested with the judge of assize, and all the
magistrates had to do was to sea that the money was
paid. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman would con-
sent to the appointment of the Committee, as he was con-
vinced the Bi I itself would never wet k in its present form.
He would ask whether the public buildings had been
erected at a less proportionate expense than those which
had been raised from county rates.—(Hear, hear.)
That was not a matter of proof and opinion, but one of
proof and estimate.—(Hear.) All the public buildings
were erected under the supervision of responsible and
official persons, all under open contract.—(Hear,
hear.) They had been compelled to build lunatic
asylums and to enlarge their gaols— these all
were items of large expense. It was welt known
that none of the, expenses could 13- incurred
without the Strictist superviisien, and if the Hon. Gen-

rleman who had taken an interest in the subject bad been
in his place, he would have a,,ltLd him whether he bad
not hail great difficulty in his endeavour to raise the
dietary iu the erisons.—(Hear, hear) He would also
ask me Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home
Department whether there had been any complaint
whatever made of excess in the expenditure upon this
item. He would also further ask him whether
the expenses iucurred in Milli:lank acd Fenton-
vide, or any other of tl e public prisons, were
less than thole paid in the county gaols.
When the gaol Act was passed some years ago, its influ-
ence was very far from being anticipated, and much ex-
pense had been the result, but for which the county
magistrates were in no way responsible. On the whole
he was desirous of some inquiry, and he thought that it
ought to be made; but the Bill in its present state was
quite impracticable.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he was desirous to say
a few words, because he thought that his Honour-
able Friend the Member for Montrose had been
hardly dealt with in the early part of this debate.
The Hon. Member who had just sat down had dealt
more fairly than the Hon. Baronet who moved the
amendment ; he had expressed his opposition to the
Bill because he believ.d it to be impracticable. Now the
very reason why he( Mr. V. Smith) would support it
was, because he conceived it to be tar more practicable
l than the amendment. The Hon. Baronet who had
• chiefly opposed he Bill had stated that this Bill, if
passed, would be en insult on the g_tntry of Eng-
, land. No one would be further from entertaining
the desire to insult the • gentlemen of En
himself ; but he could not view it at all in this light,
and did conceive that no such intention was entertained.
—(Hear, hear.) The opposition to this Bill was founded
on the old arguments against the Reform Bill. Why,
they might just as well say that the Houses of Lords and
Commons should not combine to legislate for the coun-
try, simply because the Members of the former House
bell particularly large stakes in the country.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought that the very reason why the
boards of guardians should be admitted to a share in the
control of the expenditure of the county rate was that
they were small rate-payers. If they were so they were
moat conversant with small things. and most likely to be
able to judge of them, and their introduction to the
county board would therefore be a great benefit. The
most practical proceeding would be to refer the whole
matter to a Select Committee, in ord• r that the principle
and details of the Bill might be fully considered.—(l.l. ar.)
Mr. WILSON PATTEN said as the county expen-
diture of Lancashire bad increased from 80,0004 to
170,000 L, it was no wonkier that the rate-payers should
be desirous of having some voice in the distribution of
it.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly never saw a greater
insole upon any body of gentlemen than th.t conveyed
in the Bill of the Hon. Gantleman that the magistrates
were incapable of representing the rate•payi rs of the
county.— (llear.) A.. the Bill now stood it would not
carry out the principle proposed. The best way would
be to throw the whole county-rate opon the landlord,
and take it off the tenant, which might be very easily
accomplished.—(Hear, hear.) It they did not do that,
they would get into error. Ea. instance, if an order carne
from the Home Secretary that an additional expense
might be incurred for any particular purpose, who was
to decide that a rate should be made to carry that pur-
pose into effect? As the Bill stood now. the greatest
amount would fall upon the occupiers, and would they
•-consent to an expenditure fur objects in which they had
no permanent interest? 'Tenants who had leases for ten
and fourteen years had no interest in the expenditure
beyond the periods of their respective holdings. He