The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-23 00:00:00

(,`specially called for the attention of the Government.
mediate inquiry should he made into the circumstances
of the melancholy wreck of the Roth.say, and that suet.
in as
ures would afterwards be adopted as the case might
seern to require.--(Hear, hear.)
,Tliia::e, ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
'"lt. It. PEEL hoped, that when Ministers should have
R'
their minds as to the time and the duration of the
ad up
they would make it known as soon as pos-
e'''Alth'ough- the Noble Lord opposite (Lord. Althorp)
ttid not agree with him as to the period of the adjournment
,---(A laugh)—vet it was to he remarked that they had
been sitting the're since:the 26th of November—(Hear)—
anti to continue the sitting longer than was absolutely tic-
Q"sara' would be extremely inconvenient, not only on pri-
vate but on public grounds.—(llear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP had taken into consideration all the
circumstances which the Right Hon. Baronet had sug-
g"ted to him, and he was sorry that he could not agree
tl°,the Right Hon. Baronet's proposition. He did not
lnit it would be fitting in the present state of the busi-
-.
,„"'" of the House to snake any but a very short adjourn-
is over the day of theOF CorTHE NETHHonation.—(eaEr. -
)
C"DUCT 'OF THE KING R
LANDS.
Lard ELLIOTT would take that opportunity to repel
thelc statements made by the Hon. and Learned Member for
rtY
,Inrespecting the conduct of the King of the Nether-
tla• He did not mean to charge the Hon. Gentleman
e
t"'th wilful mis-statements, but that he was deceived by
authority upon which he relied. —(Hear, hear.) The
first
point c
re spe .t'ng which he would correct the Hon.
"nu Learned
Gentlemano:leman was, what bad been called the
4°`'illing union of the Belgians with Holland. That union
Wall resolved on by the Allied Powers in July, 1814, from
W,,,,11:ieh tirne to August, 1815, the consolidation of the
-"del kingdom did not take place. In that interval there
the "'Pie time for representation and remonstrance. on
(Bear Part of the Belgians against the. projected union.—
Ca') The first act of the King was to appoint _ a
•totnission to revise the fundamental law, and to make
Ita:stleurnpatible as possible with the feelings and wishes ofd
:1,1:7;11: ilia:sly—ill:gear.) That Commission was compose
c'o""cist respectable Dutchmen and Belgians. When• those
I,,,iu..isioners delivered their report to the King, he
to impose upon the Belgians any law
:4-7ch they had not agreed. He therefore convokedTahne
I\l ably of the Notables of the different provinces.
there"'", of that assembly were chosen in such a way that
aurae was one for every two thousand Belgians, and
hegst the Notables were several person who have since
Its 4 Arend/ere of the Revolutionary Congress at Brussels.
herlttie, true, indeed, that a majority of the Belgian MFin-
vver were opposed to the Constitution, but these objections
al reicaanfined to the two first articles, which decreed drat
all() vlugions should be equally protected, and that no. man
giatiutti he deprived of civil rights on account of his reli-
lbeese:ts
it,ry.l3.:: it was also to be considered, that although
bsp ''. "'cies were certainly opposed by a majority of, the
tlacitfarttizeesiefsrom the Belgian provinces, yet, as they were a
the States-General, it would be absurd that
should he rejected on account of their oppost-
tYstea, A' to the complaints respecting the oppressive
klia,i; of taxation adopted by the King, he
.(Lord E.)t
iti ' nnt take upon himself to justify the policy of t le
kiaaaeenAliniste.r, which might or might not have been
PteaeAde injurious. But the States-General.. hadap-
• did F and; and that they could have rejected it if they
thseennt aPprove of it, was manifest from this, that they
a„,(4titt es rejected the budgets proposed by the Ministers.
,htitvti,,,eard Again, the King was bitterly censured for
Belgians anrogated the trial by jury, which it was said the
i'lars" Possessed in the time of Napoleon. But that
Perot. „
totieh several times interfered with it, and it was not
hfidg• tesorted to. It was never well understood in
liaa 4411, and the jury laws submitted to the Cham-
' Wer
4. tit e rejected by them. As to what had been said
leld bev'tate of dependency in which the Judges were
t'e I the Kim' he (Lord Elliot) believed that not a
i .gthe Ins-Ince could' be adduced of the removal of a Judge
li9tonetwhole fifteen years of the union.—(Hear.) The to b ent occasioned by the decree respecting the languagre
s used. in the Law Courts was confined solely
ito.da
svueihy_
fall rortion of the upper classes in Brussels, and la d
ill, 50g before the Revelution. The King was clut.rtgneo ,
thtsiZttaieution of the Press. But lie imposed on I
Re. 1
aati ktom lint the laws agreed by the Chambers..
th't Rntg the keepin of schools, the only restriction ;vat:,
r.)aa, t-o(4l°olniasters and schoolmistresses were reqnirei
hey
ite tb give satisfactory evidence of their. qualifications,
an-
'446 'Y„e°t'hi enter Upon that occupation. Another.
a,4Pilciint44,-,4stinst the King was, that. lie interfered in the
41' that forf the Roman Catholic Bishops ;
.but the faet
Icl4l the first twelve years of the union, he had
arDsQaWgerh Whateverin their nomination.
,About,. three
:War: e obtained a Concordat from the I ope,.who at
t1,4(1e to PPressed his satisfaction with the appointments
aiere tv t"er that authority. It was also complaine.d, that
Pklayttle_sa. great partiality in the distribution
tohfeornffinesiatl
partem- 'tiiit)tudentitsf,r:lTlnd that the Belgians wahretfofrrnm
being
true,
tith there „ve_ ctice. So far was .t a
Vartalea, 'o a great many Belgians. employed in high
.tPart,a g" of the Government ; and in the Diplomatic.
4th'elltiterl;gene7 allot:0 there were at this moment three Belgian
'lre ljn* and Concluded Learned had been led into
byl expressingK a hope that, as
titstre.l the misrepresent•etr'n 'el
foorthers, he would not he-
-4 to retract his mis-sat 't" °tits —(Hear )
Ll'tvin. ().C°NNELL \rasa ernraetefu'l to the Nole rd for
/Vtt.ies-uAhvecusita'ittnetriet,iniactto:opdhiimgrtunity to correct titheinac.:cu-
t respecting
Vt`.,a, hear.) He assuredethhleieNio'balle mL•oa.rdde
uct of the King 0
tai few evenings
tier i
kfaa 'Roted to retract
vi II
11;
Past,. vo sf
hb!isenitdcharg ;e s baaugnta,Y flatHholelasnhdo.u—ld
'ilia-statement into which lie
ininststtehaadt oAffbnneianrgnha,bltehteofarnetltraectf
lit4°."\atement was, that it was too mitigated.—(Hear,
iota) As lie had been again called on by the Noble
41ettile hoped the House would excuse bins if he detained
Ley Y Putting the case of the Belgians in its proper light.
paled, svt,cre aware that the King, or, as he was then
4w.°e Stachholder of Holland, was in military posses-
tbllied Bothe Provinces of Belgium, as Commissary of the
L'tte :reigns, and that although the annexation of
I°'''Ol'srtices to Holland was determined on in 1814, it
14ie, ()ill "ropleted until August, 1815. But, in the mean
Ilit4 ring of Holland was in military possession of
i' k ' there was in that country no magistracy, no
ll''ol it iutitibritYs no law but the will of the Stadtholder ;
, litt,e it very truly be said that the Belgians expressed
lit tilaa Ingness to the union. How could they? Dare
''t 11-: 6f them, under such circumstances, throw
`ltiti telfltt about it?—(Hear, hear.) The King in-
ab•Way- ?red the Constitution to a Committee. But
4,,:el per vatted
was distinguished by the chicanery
hipt had , the whole conduct of drat King.
•aTt.aa ti,stready agreed to the Constitution, and. well they
14, the c '53, had all the advantages of it on their own side;
II her
fonstitution was referred to a Congressof an equal
i4tite°l, I)titch and Belgian Notables. With respect to
e4ides ; then, it was merely acts agere. Of 1,603
~;ritlier-uttitnoned by the King, 1,321 attended, and of
ira tat, v,ated against the Constitution 796, and for it
tltP''(aiettle King declared that the 527 were a ma-
is, lie .st, and a laugh)—and bow did he make this
10 IQ, t 8,411 that the reason which 126 Members had
1,, they ..eir votes was not a good one, and that, the.re-
laeWntse ttnnid go for nothing, as if a vote was anything
Ittlia; ''ecatise there was a reason for it.—(Hear, and
iti,l,it 11110,41114 mere—he decided that all those who were
oid,%. 1,100 considered as having voted for the Con-
lik sea& "us be made out a majority. As to the Noble
'le Ivas ,hrlati°,l, that the objection of the Catholic No-
adab;osee to the freedom of religious opinion, the
lyit 1104°4ght to remeniber, that in that a great part
1
tht4,tely, steh agreed with the Notables, and that, until
gbitigabit (7.thajority of the House of. Commons ware
tt, eta.
,s'oting in favour of the opinion of the 126
y ttl‘,...tites, that all religions should not be equally
11:4,1tch Meat.) But he (Air. O'Connell) differed
b-tqabi-4tt" from the Belgian Prelates and the friends
kaid th'c'td in that House.—(Hear.) But it could
Ilgii,h tat, because the Di on
held the PPinims of
I. tilsiloalq Sse of Commo'ns on a general question, their
I. ,!fai he disallowed. Nor could therehe ally more
erne
:v"lenee of the force and fraud by which
'th teas P eted than the King's making up such a
'i? klgi, The Noble Lord considered the taxes imposed
pa I'4 4'B not
oppressive or unjust. What was the
111tYtael,t greatest Part of the taxation' was collected for
ktititti, cif the debt of tha United Provinces. But
Isita,,Atist%tie union Belgium had no debt. There
t ~,°f an !I'elgian dent amounting to twenty-eight
tiplvue aiiii. css that is thirtien Millions of guilders, or
itkards a,.°° !te:ling. But the debt of Holland itself
litiitllat theul; tinily-nine millions sterling. No wonder
iirly 1,/.1‘,,,h,
.!'tch alaould have been so well pleased with
I\iaaltteat 4.,40° they were enabled to throw their debt of
ki aael. skea t ns °Pon another nation. —(Year, hear.)
et, er) here ° Which Belgium was subject in the time
14) tt)tellNth_°°lY one-third of the taxes which Hol-
ttli,rt7etade e4rni to pay in the time of peace.—(Hear,
"'ea 4' 41 '' `...,2 tazn Was i ^ ersi^ ever, year,
he r aunt speed?
...a , ''.!
.P,I - s-g . , _
~1cide,.,,,,,,, . ,) nave been either h national bank-
ilaa, a t,,,
t}
.iitaa,
of
fn
wllEi:i2ehl
one
Kur millions sterling
tkftlttlaori the
debt,
ninon only was
'lt'ili.,,n 01, i; nuteh, the payment of the remainder
tit,',i.eiians• The population of Belgiu was
had _l4t of Holland only two and a half; but
" 111:10y representatives in the Chambers :

eo that, as all the measures of the King were in favour of
Holland, be had, of course, all the Dutch Deputies on his
side; and it was only necessary for him to bribe over a
few of the Belgians to command a majority in the Clim-
bers on every question, however unjust to Belgium.
Never was there a mote unjust, iniquitous, and oppressive
union, unless, perhaps, the Noble Lord would remind him
that there was one exception.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord said that the Trial by Jury was of no value to the
Belgians under Napoleon, and that they did not care for it.
But the fact was that the Dutch King, when only Com-
missary of the Allied Powers, issued an arret abolishing
the Trial by Jury. Front the union to the time of the re-
volution, petition after petition was sent to the Chambers,
praying for the restoration of the Jury ; and, as the
people could not hold public meetings to express their
complaints, a protest was circulated, reprobating the abo-
lition, to which it alluded in these words, " La Jure est
assa.ssine dans la Belgique." As to the three codes, com-
pared to them the legislation of the middle ages was en-
lightened. On the 11th of December, 1821, the King
sent a message to the Chambers, in which he declared that
he would not allow the Trial by Jury—(Hear, hear)—be-
cause, forsooth, it was an exotic importation which never
could take root in Belgium. Before the union, every wit-
ness in a Belgian Court was examined before the public,
and every one must know the great advantage that is
gained towards eliciting truth by the open examination of
witnesses. But in the same arret by which the Trial by
Jury was abrogated, he also ordered that witnesses
should be examined in private.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord denied that the independence of Judges
was interfered with. But how ' did the King manage
that ? The Constitution provided that there should
be a new appointment of Judges ; that the first ap-
pointment should be made by the King, and that all
future appointments should be subject to tie approbation
of the Chambers. The Constitution provided that the Judges
should hold their seats for life, unless removed by an
act of the Chambers. But the King having the first ap-
pointments made them all provisional, and so they re-
mained for the whole fifteen years of his reign, notwith-
standing the law that they should be appointed for life.
The King was said to be one of the wisest of philosophers,
and his mode of keeping the Judges dependent on his will
in spite of the law, was one proof of his cunning if not of
his wisdom. The law provided that the people should
have independent Judges ; but he withheld the nomina-
tion. It was denied that he persecuted the Press, although
on the 25th April, 1815, he issued an Ordonnance, de-
claring that it was a high crime for any one to publish
anything tending to create distrust in the' Government;
and he fixed the minimum of punishment at solitary im-
prisonment for one year, and the maximum at—not tran-
sportation or banishment—but death.—(Hear, hear.)
This was the law to which the Belgic Press was subject
for the fifteen years of the philosophical Monarch's reign l
and was it a dead letter ?--No, indeed. Not a year
passed without a prosecution being instituted under these
laws. In July, 1830, there were thirty-two prosecutions
commenced in one day. Would the House allow him to
state what were the crimes in some of those cases.—( Hear.)
It was one of the provisions of the Constitution that all
persons who had resided in Belgium two years before the
Union of 1815, were entitled to all the privileges of native
born subjects. Notwithstanding that law, the Mini-
ster of the Interior expelled two French gentlemen from
the country, and a person who sent a memorial to the
King in their behalf, and published a protest in the public
papers against the illegal conduct of the Minister, was im-
mediately arrested and confined for several days in solitary
confinement, at the end of which he was indicted for a
transportable offence, but the law being clearly in his
favour, he was acquitted, to the disappointment of the
King and his Minister. A Catholic Priest, much respected
by his parishioners, was fond of employing his leisure
hours in writing of Latin verses. He one evening read
some of those verses at the table of a family with whom he
dined. In one of those verses there was a line to the
effect that the Belgians could not bear a foreign yoke. Fur
reading that line at a private table the Priest was confined
for two years in solitary imprisonment.—(Hear, hear.)
There was the Liberty of the Press which the wise and
benevolent King bestowed upon Belgium. As to De
Potter, he should pass over the case of that gentleman, as
perhaps, the Noble Lord would think that the Dutch
Government had treated him well enough, inasmuch as lie
was a political writer. But what would the Noble Lord
say to the punishment of Van der Staaten ? That gentle-
man published a moderate work upon the science of poli-
tical economy, and was arrested on the very day of its
publication. In the mean time the trial of De Potter was
proceeding, and one of his friends, a lawyer, holding
office under the Crown, was employed to defend him.
When the lawyer rose in the Court to open the eh-fence,
a messenger put into his hand his dismissal from office.
On the same principle the Crown proceeded towards
the lawyers acting for Van Staaten. That writer
applied to some of the most eminent lawyers in
Belgium to draw up the pleadings for him, which
were to be sent to the Judges, as the statement of his de-
fence. The pleadings being drawn up, were signed in the
usual way by the defendant's lawyers. Every man of them
was immediately sent to prison, and confined for seven
weeks. When at length brought to trial, they were ac-
quitted, but the King forbad them to practise again in
their profession.—(Hear, hear.) But in consequence of
the strong remonstrances of the Belgic Bar, they were again
permitted to plead, after a suspension of twelve months.
it was true, indeed, as the Noble Lord assured him, that
he had badly stated the case which he undertook the other
night. lie had, indeed, understated the wrongs of the
people whom he had attempted to defend. Who could
forget the trial of the seven Bishops? Who could forget
the revolution to which it gave rise ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Oppressive as was the prosecution of these Prelates—
were their Counsel sent to gaol?—(Hear, hear.) Where
could the Noble Lord point out a parallel to the tyranny of
that King who sent the advocate to prison for undertaking
the defence of the accused ?—(Cheers.) Nor did the
King monopolise the convenience of his law against the
Press to his own Government; but had allowed the King
of France, and even the beloved Ferdinand to avail them-
selves of it !—( Hear.) Some writer in a newspaper said,
that the beloved Ferdinand was a very good embroiderer—
(A laugh)—but he at the same time expressed some doubt
that the Virgin would like her statue to be decked out in
a petticoat worked by hands stained with innocent
blood._.( Hear.) The man was prose: uted, and received
the punishment due to so great a libeller. The Duke of
Wellington was also a prosecutor of the Belgian Press. Some
One said that a French colony was neglected because the
Governor was a friend to the Duke of Wellington, and
was desirous of forcing the colonists to throw themselves
into the arms of England. The Duke laid his damages
at 10,000 florins, and the Judges gave him five florins.
But then the poor printer was ordered to pay the costs of
both parties. He (Mr. O'Connell) would not say that the
Duke threw his costs upon the poor man. lie thanked
the House for the attention with which they had betted
him vindicate his own statements, and he was now unwil-
ling to detain them longer.—(Hear, hear.) But there
were one or two other points which he shonid beg per-
mission to notice. For example, it had teen the practice
of the Dutch Monarch, in making dismissals from his
service, to insert, in some few instances, the words
" honourably dismissed" in the act of dismissal ; where
those words were not inserted, the persons dismissed lost all
their political rights. A burgomaster mimed Henniker
offered some oppositiors to the imposition of a tax-lie was
turned out of office, and lost all his political rights.
Another public officer was dismissed for signing a petition
in favour of the Jury I.aw, and he lost all his political
rights. Baron Steesard, a Belgian by birth, was
25
years in the French service, by which he became entitled
to a pension of 4,000 francs if Ire remained in France; but
as he preferred hia native country, that pension was changed
to 1,800 guilders, about equal to 4,000 f. He was a member
of the Second Chamber, and for no other reason than that
he supported a motion for taking into consideration a pe-
tition complaining of grievances, his political rights were
also taken away. With these facts before the House, of
which the moss satisfactory proof multi be given, the
I,';oble LOrd thought proper to Come Upon him with
charges of misrepresentation in a statement, every word of
which was borne out by the facts. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then tsent on to complain, that his observations
upon this subject on a former night had not been fully re-
ported ; there were, the remarked portions of the public
ss this country, who were intelligent enough, and
who fully understood all that was calculated to promote
their own objects. There was 18,000,000;. of Dutch
debt,a considerable portion of which was held by persons re-
sident in this country; would it be thought that the
fundholders Lad no influence upon a 'certain leAding jour-
nal ? Still he had not expected—however short their ac-
count of whst he seid ;night bee—to find in its reports a
sneering answer to observations made by him in that
House. If the editor of a newspaper thought proper to
reply to him, well and good : but it was rather new that
lie should receive answers from any one else. To return
to the conduct of the King of Holland—it was not only
offensive to all Catholics hut to ell Christiana, ife com-
pletely over-veaChed the Pape ; lie 'reduced the number of
Bishops to two ; he perseYered in maintaining the philo-
sophical college established by the Emperor Joseph, where
none but the professors of theology were Catholics, where
young men front the age of 19 to 22 were placed under no
ecclesiastical restraint, and gave, therefore,no proof of power
to resist the strongest and most delicious passion. Bear-

ing in mind, then, what he had said, he was sure the
House would feel that he had exaggerated nothing and eon_
coaled nothing. All that remained for Belgium was to
snap the chain which bound her to Holland, and he hoped
the links would never be reunited.
Lord ALTHORP trusted the House would feel that that
was not the proper time for prolonging a discussion of that

nature.

Sir 11. VYVYAN said that the Hon. Gentleman had
told them that the Belgians had had sufficient ground for
the course they had thought proper to adopt; but surely
there was no one who bad heard the remarks of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, tooth on that and on a former
night, who would not admit, that what he said was more
directed to another country than to that which formed the
ostensible object of his two speeches. Much had been said
respecting the Belgian debt. It might be true it was not
so large as that of Holland ; but it was equally true that
that circumstance did not justify the Belgians in casting off
their allegiance.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
Mr. S. RICE moved, that a sum of 11,2761. 19s. 3d,
be granted to make good the losses sustained by two indi-
viduals ; tie one named Lescene, and the other Escoffery,
in consequence of their having been deported from Jamaica
by order of the Governor.
Mr, HUME could not understand how this escaped him
in the civil contingencies of 1830, but he now would Oppose
the grant ; for this amongst other reasons, that the people
of England ought not to be taxed for the misconduct of a
Colonial Government.
Mr. RICE replied, that the case of those individuals had
been referred to Mr. Justice Richardson first, afterwards to
Mr. Baron Bosanquet; both found that the deportation of
those individuals was illegal; and it was then referred to
Mr. Selwyn, to ascertain the amount of damages to which
they were entitled ; a sum load been paid them on account,
and the present rote was merely to complete the arrangement.
. Sir GEORGE MURRAY bore out the last speaker,
and gave his unqualified support to the vote.
Mr. WARRE, after reading all the documi nts, thought
it rather hard to call on the English public to pay for the
loss incurred by those gentlemen, If, therefore, he con-
sented to this vote, he should do it most reluctantly, and
only on the ground that such a condition bad already been
entered into.
Lord HOWICK observed, that it had been urged that
the Duke of Manchester ought to pay this compensation ;
but the answer to that was, that the Duke had acted on
the advice of the Assembly and the law officers of the
Crown in Jamaica; and this country was, in fact, answer-
able for the acts of the Governor of Jamaica, if those acts
were performed under the proper advice.
Sir J. BURKE said, that if the Hon. Member for
Middlesex wooed re-shape mseolteito.tn.ciotmsinhoiuttlede,hainvethliiiss
was against the appointment of
case,
Iruct
Ebh
eeToitfihEo service.ußgE
Sit
a Select Committee; and, with respect to the Duke of Man-
chester, he did not see what course that Nobleman could
have pursued but that of following the advice which the
Crown afforded him through the regular officers.
Mr. F. PALMER thought that these individuals had
been most cruelly arid unjustly used ; and it was of no con-
sequence to him whether it had been done by the Duke of
Manchester or the Assembly at Jamaica. After the clear
statement made of these cruelties, he was bound to say that,
thank God, such a case, as emanating from British Govern-
ment, hail never been heard of before; and he did think
that this Committee was, in duty bound, to make them the
best recompence within its power.
Mr. Serjeant WILDE said that, in his opinion, the
Committee ought immediately to confirm this act of jus-
tice, as the delay of seven years that had taken place looked
very like a denial of it.
After a few words from Mr. BURGE,
Mr. O'CONNELL said their case had been most
anxiously investigated by Mr. Justice Bosanquet, *hose
character all parties appeared to unite to eulogize, and that
learned person had decidee in their favour. Their case
for compensation was therefore, in his opinion, fully made
out. It was also clear to him, that in this case the Duke
of Manchester was not responsible, for he had only acted
under the advice of the Council and the Law Officers of
Jamaica.
Mr. HUNT said, that if these individuals ought to have
compensation, so ought those individuals who had been
imprisoned in this country tinder the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act.
Mr. F. PALMER said, the attack made upon him by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Burge) would
perhaps have had more force, could he (Mr. Palmer) for-
get the office which that lion, and Learned Gentleman
had held in Jamaica, and which must necessarily have im-
plicated him in the transaction in question.
Mr. BURGE said, that in the opinion he had formed
on the subject, he had been backed by the Council of the
Assembly in Jamaica.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS defended the Duke of Manchester.
Mr. HUME briefly replied, and could not consent to
this vote till further information was given.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it l2
Majority ~ —lO5
The next vote was for the sum of 5,794/. for the Pro.
testant Charity Schools, Ireland.
Mr. S. RICE stated, in answer to a question from Mr.
Hume, that the grant would be diminished next year, and
he hoped would in a year after altogether cease.—Vote
agreed to.
The next vote was for 27,8241. for the Foundling Hos-
pital, Dublin, for 1831.
Mr. S. RICE explained that this vote was in a gradual
course of reduction, and be thought that the sooner the
vote was departed from the better.
After a short conversation the vote was agreed to.
The sum of 21,900/. was next voted for the House of
Industry in Dublin for the year 1631.
1,. 388/ was voted for the Richmond Lunatic Asylum,
Dublin, for the year 1831.
6,323/. was also voted for the Hibernian Society for
Soldiers' Children for 1831.
iell2,
it/. rn
isavna thesAia r nn eex
st
ovcoiteet3fo r defraying
,whi,th the
was expence
agreed
to,
a of
f te
r
a few words from Mr. Humr, complaining of the expence
of the establishment, and recommending its abolition.
Mr. S. RICE said it was unreasonable to expect it to
be immediately abolished, but it was in a course of reduc-
tion, and all admissions were stopped.
1,299/. was also voted for the Female Orphan House.
2,9001. was voted for the Westmorland Lock Hospital,
for 1831.
2,000/. was next voted for the Lying-in Hospital, for
183

1,5781. was also voted for Dr. Stephen's Hospital, for
831.

2:8601. was granted for tLe Fever Hospital, Cork-street,
Dublin, fin• 1831.
4651. was also voted for the Hospital for Incurables, for
1831.

The CHAIRMAN was then ordered to report progress.
The House resumed, and the report was ordered to he
received to-morrow.

WINE DUTIES,
On the motion of Lord ALTJIORP, the Order of the
Day for the second reading of the Wine Duties Bill wazi
read ; and the question was then put, that the Bill be now
read a second lime.,
Mr. COURTENAY, in opposing the second reading
of the Bill, begged to be understood aa not personally
posing the Noble Lord. In the situation in which he
stood, as well as when he was in office finder the Govern-
ment, he had given this subject a great deal of attention,
and, Le thought, embracing principles somewhat similar
to those adopted by the Government, he had come to the
conclusion that it was not possible to alter these duties
without acting inconsistently with treaties. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then read thi; llicchuen Treaty, and 'con-
tended chat :it was ir.tended, frCrat'its terini, to 'be perpe-
tual, sinles both nations agreed to put an end to it. The
Noble Lord might, by putting a tortuous construction on
some parts, feel himself at liberty to say, that England had
the power, if she pleased to pay the penalty, ro terminate
her portion of the contract; 'but he (Mr. 'COurtenziy) de-
nied that, in any moral point of view, the Government
were justified in adopting such a course ; and fie must say,
from all he had heard, that the Noble Lord ar.d hir, col-
leagues, after having aciviLed a breach of -the treaty with
the morality of a pettifogger, now attempted. to justify his
advice with the sophis.ry of a smuggler.—(A laugh.)
He admitted that this c untry might iae induced to pro-
pose a telaninatiou of the treaty in consequence' of re-
peated grievances snstinel from the portuggest.i b..ut he
denied tliat the Howe of Comoitmr, had any knowledge of
any such grievances ainoe It3la, neatly twenty years ago.
If it was attempted to be said that there were other and
more recent grievances to complain of, he would say, on
the strength, of very bi4h authority, that they had ;been
r,nd most satiaia:ctorilv redressed;' fOr the Speech
from the Throne, in which those 'grievances were called
insults and injuries, added at the same time that they had
been redressed in a 'stunner which rendered any further
measures wholly or necessary. After observing that the
Government of the country was bound to preserve its
faith the more tenaciously with Portugal, because its
strength and power precluded Portugal from going to war
to maintain her rights, the Right lion. Gentleman pro-,

7

ceetied to contend that the treaty of 1810 alluded to the
Methuen Treaty as being perpetual.
Mr. ROBERTSON said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man bad made an extraordinary use of his statements, and
he confessed he thought the opponents of the measure
would not derive much advantage from his argutnents.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman placed
'he whole question on the perpetual character of the
Methuen Treaty; but it must be recollected that at the
end of fifteen years after the signing of that treaty, either
party was at liberty to put an end to it if they thought fit.
Dismissing it, therefore, he meant to apply himself to the
purely commercial point of the question, and on that be
believed the Government had committed a very dangerous
error. The Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Thomson) bad asked, with an air of triumph, if they
thought that the Portuguese would deprive themselves of
some of the most necessary articles of consumption, purely
because this country admitted French wines on better
terms? He (Mr. Robertson) would ask, however, what
was to prevent the Portuguese from equalising the duties
on all the articles of export from England ? According
to the returns of 1830, it appeared that the exports to
Portugal on official value amounted to two millions and a
hal', in addition to 200 000/. worth of cod shipped from
our colonies of Newfoundland. The fish which Portugal
took from the fisheries of Newfoundland amounted to
300,000 kiltres. The transport employed 100 sail of
vessels, and it was received at a duty of 15 per cent.,
while the fish brought by our great rivals, the Ameri-
cans and the Norwegians, paid a duty of 30 per cent. It
was said, however, that British industry might .sanely
be left to a competition in this supply of cod-fish. But
what was the result of that competition in the case
of Spain ? Twenty years ago the Norwegians and Ame-
ricans supplied Spain with 10,000 kiltres, and Eng-
land carried 80,000 kiltres. At the present mo-
ment the 80,000 were supplied by the Americans
and the Norwegians, and the 10,000 kiltres by England.
The truth was, that Portugal took more from this country
than Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and France, with their
population of 45,000,000. We took, he said, from
several States ten times as much as we did from Portugal,
and this proved that imports had nothing to do with this
question, but that it entirely depended on other circum-
stances. He strongly protested against the project of the
Noble Lord, in which he proposed to give up a certain
market in Portugal, upon the speculation of obtaining a
market in France—a speculation, too, which there was
no reason to believe could be successful. The Noble Lord
wished to reduce the duties on French wines for the pur-
pose of encouraging France to enter into more extensive
trade with us, awl to admit our manufactures. No en-
couragement, he contended, was at all likely to make
France do any such thing. Had we not even experience
whereby to be guided on this point? In 1825, the duty
on French wines had been reduced 6s. 6d. a gallon, and
the result had been that our imports from France were
now twice as great as at that period, and our exports only
half what they had then been. Now it was only proposed
to reduce the duty 2s. 9ii., and what good could they pos-
sibly expect from that ? It was idle for us, he contended,
to endeavour to persuade other nations to join with us in
adopting the principles of what was called free trade.
Other nations knew as well as the Noble Lord opposite,
and those who acted with him, what we meant by free
trade was nothing more nor less than, by means of the
great advantages we enjoyed, to get a monopoly of all their
markets for our manufactures, and to prevent them, one
and all, from ever becoming manufacturing nations.
When this system of reciprocity and free trade had been
proposed to a French Ambassador, his remark was that
the plan was excellent in theory, but to make it fair in
practice, it would be necessary to defer the attempt to put
it in execution for half a century, until France should be
on the same footing with Great Britain in marine, in
manufactures, in capital, and the many other peculiar ad-
vantages which it now enjoyed. The policy that France
acted upon was that of encouraging its native manufactures,
and it was a wise policy; because, if it were freely to ad-
mit oar manufactures, it world be speedily reduced to the
rank of an agricultural nation ; and therefore a poor na-
tion, as all must be that depend exclusively upon agricul-
ture. America, too, acted upon the same principle with
France. America legislated for futurity—legislated for an
increasing population. America, too, was prospering un-
der this system. In twenty years America would be inde-
pendent of England for manufactures altogether. He
begged to ask the Noble Lord why it was that Govern-
ment, embarrassed as it was with the Reform Bill, should
have brought forward the question of the Wine Duties at
all this year ? What was the reason ; what the pressing
ne-
cessity? In this measure Ministers were departing from
the principle they had themselves laid down ; they
were taking a tax off the wealthier and higher classes,
and imposing it upon the middle and lower classes.
Either considering the measure as a question of policy or
fininee, it was one of the worst and most unfortunate which
could possibly be submitted to the House of Commons.
If they even did succeed in transferring the whole
wine trade from Portugal to France, all that they would
have effected was, to give advantages to a rival in a mari-
time and commercial point of view, and to take advantages
away from a nation which could never compete with us,
either as a maritime, commercial, or manufacturing
country. As a question of policy, therefore, the measure
was bad; as a question of finance he had shewn it was
bad. It would do great injury to the wine trade in this
country, and withal be of no benefit to that class of indi-
viduals who could afford to drink Champagne, Burgundy,
and Claret. The quantity of French wines, of the first
growth, actually produced, was so small, that the import
could not lie increased ; and with French wines of :ha se-
cond and third growth, the people of thin country never
would he satisfied. He contended that the policy pursued
by all statesmen was to encourage the connection with the
friendly country which afforded us the market, in prefe-
rence to the rival State which withheld it. Even Air.
iluskisson, when America raised her tariff, declared, that
if this line of
policy was persevered in, perhaps England
might, in self-defence, raise the duties in her turn, and
olte since
r world,ce
countriestl'e peaceand wellanigh monopo-
of the world had.
iFrance, Germany,;
take cottons from Brazil, and so show America we could
do without her. During the war, he remarked, we were
America,
carriersehsmeriites
aa nftiii r theai whole
commerce;
the butl
other
proceeded upon the principle of encouraging and protect-
ing native manufactures. England alone, iay depart•
ing front this policy, had injured her trade
end
difficulty
maeree, a was indobitahly accelerating that dis-
tr
which would hereafter assail us.
If the aystem of establishing low prices for manufac-
tures were continued—if the price of agriculsatra; produce
were to be lowered by the repeal of the protecting corn
laws (which would be tine next thing called for) if we
were to have all our corn from Poland—our ;ilk and all
the other commodities we wanted from other countries,
it was true the consumers—that is the few—would be
beri
efittetdo asked the Noble Lord, who was to pay the, but the many would be ruined ; and then, be
begged
taxes ? After the corn laws, the next thing meddled with
would be the Funds. It was impasaih/e the funded sys•
And the result of all these alterations would
tern could be continued titular such an increasing cry for
low prices.
he, to place the country in the worst of all eitalationa—
namely, that of having only two classes, the extremely
wealthy and the extremely peer, Ile should, therefore,
under these circ.umstanees move, as auamendment, the
resolutions of which he had given notice. He w,-,s ready
o
foreign yui
tnyc so, ,
on French
eNnVchha twliineesoa bjleychtielde
to was,iv
tshoi7edo4fsttliioe fe h
n,ooaf t utgy oen
the Noble Lord the adval4,P.g3 of the increased
d
there at the same time an inq•ea,;. of the duty on the
Portugal wines,
I'C Pau-a. Member- then read his reso-
lution, which stated the amount of exports and imports as
between this country ' and Tortuga}, al' and as t.
,eteen this
country and France, contrastint• theta with a view of
showing that, as rag-ard c• •
q populatzon, the imports fram
France, as compared lo the 'exports to t •
castutry, were
much larger than as lestt) .• .
een taaa country and Portia al,
much to tha advantage of Fran
He begged to add
now, that since the reduction of theed.ut
the exports to that country had been
fy,en French wines
11fr. COI RTENAI7, it ex
courtesy,
said that he had
been accused, oi a Nyant of of which he thought
that in the whole of I • •
its Parliamentary life be bad never
been gutly.—(Hear.)
Mr. H. ylt4,lpir4 b
had been the first person to
call fihe. a",tention of the iieuese to this trade, might now
be permitted to address the
subject. He should not 1
p 171.1ka few obaergations upon the
it requisite to follow the
had just addressed to
lion. Gentleman in'
the discursive speech tlat he
fhe
) The liberal
which the r• •
po,.cy -
proposed to pursue was
objected to not Only on its account, but on account of the
manner in which it was proposedth to he carried into effect.
He was much surprised that
the Member for Totness, si,ct
le Right Herr. Centleman,
re-
construe reg"ilient which had liala(r.attnlpted to • h been so often intro-
duced, and which had been as often
which ' answered, The ar-
gument to he alluded was that the of
tapou su Jet.
the Methuen Treaty, lie believed
that the Government
would ba faliy abie to show that they treaty
c Ip.u,t upon that tirteah,
the canoe construction as that which
Mr. Pitt. The treaty of 18 0 only inNtar-loluesedult)hoen neces-
sity sity of giving notice in the event of a proposition for the
alteration of any of the stipulations in the treaty. Both
these treaties were now in full force. No alteration was
attempted to be made in any of the matters respects,
ing which a notice of alteration was required. The

&dining state of Portugal—the necessity of seek-
ing for fresh markets for our produce and marm-
factures—the change that had taken place in
the policy of Europe since the Methuen treaty was
entered into—and, above all, the necessity of strengthening
the bonds of good-will between this country and France;
these all-important elements of consideration deserved the
fullest attention, and they had received nothing more than
their just and proper weight in the Bill now before the
House. This country had long been in an unwise po-
sition with regard to France, and he feared that the blame
of the error lay chiefly, if not entirely, with ourselves.
It arose from the undue preference which for 150 years
we had chosen to give to Portugal. In that preference we
were wrong; and he hoped that it was now beginning to
he understood that strict commercial amity and alliance
with France ought to be the chiefest care of Statesmen
ivho desired to preserve the peace of Europe, and who
wished their country to pursue a career of prosperity and
honour. In his opinion, an independent legislation, and
an active diplomacy founded upon the knowledge
of the internal wants of the French people (a know-
'edge but too little cultivated hitherto, but which
might be easily acquired), would give us a party in
France always favourable to our commercial inte-
i eats ; and which, if its good will had been properly culti-
vated, would before now have opened all the ports of the
country to our productions. For what was this great ad-
vantage to be sacrificed ? For an object which he thought
lie might call the key of the Hon. Gentleman's argument—
he meant the trade in Newfoundland fish. Were the people
of this country to inflict on themselves the evil of losing
the good-will of France, lest by accident—for he denied
that there was any necessary connection between the two
things—lest by accident the Portuguese Government should
lay upon the importation of Newfoundland fish a rate of
duty not at present imposed upon it. He was happy to
say that the inhabitants of Newfoundland themselves did
not seem affected by the same fear. Another fear was in-
, deed not a little ridiculous—it was perfectly unfounded.
1 It was actually ridiculous to suppose that the Portuguese
would lay a duty on the small quantity of our woollen ma-
nufactures so as to exclude them, while we continued to
indulge the same taste for Portugal wine which we at pre-
sent manifested. If Portugal were so unwise as to do so,
ruinous
possessed
inousreta in our hands h
iiation_a retaliationte
meanswhich of a
Portugal
and
le
woulda
not venture to expose herself to. The Honourable Mem-
ber was mistaken as to his idea of imports and exports.
The imports from France were not the imports of French
manufactures, but consisted chiefly of half-manufactured
silks, which were brought through France, but which
in fact came from Italy. In the same manner a large
proportion of our export trade to France, being a smug-
gling trade, did not appear in the official returns, and
could not therefore be opposed to the official imports all
of which were accurately known. These were the facts
of the Hon. Member ; they were unfortunate for him, for
they by no means made out his case. His arguments a ere
equally infelicitous ; for the complaint he made being that
our trade with France was languishing under restrictions,
the remedy he proposed was to continue, if not to increase,
the amount of the existing restrictions.
Mr. SADLER said, that the system eulogized by the
Hon, Gentleman opposite was one which tended to create
great distress among the agricultural and manufacturing
classes. These two classes were now suffering from distress
almost unexampled.—(No, no.) There was one point of
view in which the proposed free intercourse system might
be economical, for if it were fully established, he thought,
the Board of Trade might fairly be dispensed with.—
(Hear and laughter,) He would tell those gentlemen
who recommended this experiment, that it had already been
tried, and it had not answered. Were we to favour the
French manufacturer at the expense of Portugal, at the
lexpence of the destruction of a power with which we had
been so long united, and which had been so faithful to all
her engagements.—(Oh, -oh.) He concluded by declaring
his concurrence with the resolution proposed by the Host.
Member for Worcester.
Lord ALTHORP said, that as an Hon. Gentleman had
read the whole of the Methuen Treaty through, every
gentleman in the House must now be satisfied that it
provides the alternative that Portugal shall continue to
give our manufactures a preference, so bug as we impose
a less duty on her wines than on those of France ; or
that she may refuse our woollens, should we place the
French wines on the same footing with the Portuguese.
The fact so much relied on in their arguments by Hon.
Gentlemen, that our trade with Franca was of less value
than with any other country, seemed to him to be a strong
proof that our commercial policy hitherto towards that
country hail been extremely injudicious. The extent of
our trade with Portugal was not occasioned by any su-
perior commercial advantages accruing from it to us; but
from this circumstance, that the wines of that country
were better suited to the taste of the people of this country
than to the taste of any other people in Eorope. The
agricultural and commercial distress fur some time pre-
vailing in this country had not been occasioned by free
trade, but by the expensive wars in which we had been
so long engaged. He had heard no argument which
should induce the House to reject the measure which had
been agreed to in Committee.
After a few words from Mr. Alderman TiroatrsoN and
Mr. HERR.I,Is,
Mr. P. THOMSON said he would make but a few
observations. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that Mr.
Pitt had entered into negociations with reference to the
Methuen Treaty. Ilut how different were the circum-
stances of the two periods ? At that period Mr. Pitt
hoped to be able to induce Portugal to alter her system,
and to return to the observance of good faith. But his
elfors were fruitless; and ail subsequent efforts of the
same kind had proved fruitless. What had been the re-
sult of the aegociations of 1812? Coming, as they did, so
soon after the treaty of 1810, it might have been hoped
that they would be successful. If, however, the strong re-
presentations which we made to Portugal at that time
were not attended ta, what could we expect from a renewal
of negociation at the present moment, but to continua-
, ticn of the conduct which Portugal bad pursued for se-
ventythesituation, years ?
SA.ieAwintio,etrrrtiinefogyr) of resolutions had been proposed by
Mr. S. WORTLEY felt himself in rather a difficult
NwVaosr coepspt eors,,
di tti hostilityo tii
e B ill ;t ob
ut ht ei
t was
quite a quite a different thing to be opposed to the Bill,
and to support the Hon. Member's resolutiona. To the
substance of those resolutions he strongly objected. With
al! deference to the Hon. Gen...lc-man by whom they had
been proposed, he !twat say that he had never seen any re-
solutions comprehending more misrepresentations, or so
many allagations, not borne out by tbs.. facts. Whenever
the discussion on the Bill should come forward, he would
oppose the measure ; but not on the grounds stated by the
Hon. Member for Worcester.
Mr. HVAJE rose merely to say, that the Bill was di-
vided into two parts ; and that he would, on the motion
for the Speaker's leaving the Chzir, state his objections to
that part of the Bill which related to the Cape of Good
Hope. It would be totally ruinous to that colony; and
was in, every way contrary to sound paliey. If ever a
case called for condetnnation ias was this measure ; and
he believed there never 'aad been a proposition of equal
atrocity.
Mr. 11,;TtIGE. also characteriseki, :hi, measure as a viola-
t;on of all the principles by witch our colonial policy ought
to be guided. iik; would, therefore, take a similar oppor-
tunity of stating his objections to the Bill in detail.
Mi. ROBINSON (in the midst of loud cries of spoke!
spoke !) declared that his arguments remained taanswered.
The resolutk..za were then negatived without a division ;
and the bill was read a second shoe, and ordered to be
committed on Monday n.;,...xt.
The other ;'orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
at Two o'clock this morning the House adjourned.

LUST OF THE MINORITX
On t 1 e: Akotion for the Grant to Lesmi' pah•Kl Escoffery.
Blarnire, W. Gordon, R. James, W.
Burke, Sir J. Guim Sit W. B I Williams, Sir J. H.
Dick, Quintin God,io-11 R.
Dixon, J. Hodgson, John
Gillon, W, Hunt, H.

TELLER.
flume, Joseph

On Wednesday a bronze statue was erected
in Hanover-square, to the memory of the late Right Hon.
WILLIAM PITT, 011 a pedestal composed of the; best Scotch
granite, sixteen feet in height, exclusive of the statue,
which is ten feet high, and weighs upwards of iour tons.
Mr. CHANTRY is the sculptor. Woiken commenced on
Thursday morning in taking clown the iron railing of the
square, for the pur-xise of enlarging the square ,eight feet
on eo.ch side. A number of shrubberies a,e to be planted
and gravel walks !aid out in se;pentine and various other
directions, with some seats and arbours for 4.14- accommo-
dation cf c.otapany. The iron railini eactosing the square
-Rill be entirely new and is to ';.,e six feet in height,
'The rats, which feed on the 1-Ise flesh at one
of tYy " .Abattoirs" of Paris, Lee so numerous that the
" Council, of Health" tin which we suppose the jurisdic-
' tion in such cases is vested) have deter rained that the offal
should be removed to a greater distance from the city, les
a countless host of those destructive quadruped, may make
an incursion on the good people of Jew:is. Some idea can
be formed of the number, by the fact, that on one occasion
6,000 were killed by some men and dogs, in a very fen
hours.