The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-29 00:00:00

the county town of a flourishing district, and certiinly it
ought not to be partially disfranchised when it possessed a

proper constituency.
Sir R. PEEL confessed, that there appeared to him to
be very good reason for granting two Members to the bo-
rough of Dorchester, becawc Fordiugton formed a con-
tinuous town, though it was not actually included in the
borough. On the principle which had already been laid
down, he thought that an exemption from schedule B
ought to be extended to Dorchester. If they took For-
dington away, he admitted that the population would not
then be sufficient to remove the borough from the line
drawn by the Noble Lord ; and he stated this for the pur-
pose of asserting decidedly the absuldity of that line.
Absurd that rule was, because it here included that very
constituency which the promoters of the Bill had de-
clared to be the best possible constituency. He did
not, however, rest on these points; for the question
now under discussion involved a much more important
principle. This borough had a constituency respec-
table, contributing to all local charges, and consisting
of 500. This constituency they were about to reduce
to 300, by disfranchising 200 of them. Now he did not
insist upon any abstract, inherent right in these persons
to the enjoyment of the elective franchipe ; but the fatal
error of the Bill was this—namely, that when they had
the means of preserving, in connection with the rest of the
community, that class of the community, which, support-
ing themselves by their own industry, contributing to
local rates, and raised far above the condition of paupers,
though not capable of renting houses of 101.—when,
he
said, they had the means of doing this, and thereby of
softening their heartless and arbitrary line, they had
neglected those means and carried certain discontent into
the bosoms of all persons who were so dealt with—(Cheers
from the Opposition)—he had said that he did not insist
upon any abstract right inherent in this class to the en-
joyment of the elective franchise; for the right of the
people was, I,e thought, not to the exercise of the elective
franchise, but to be well governed. Neither did he con-
' tend for the indiscriminate admission of this class to the

enjoyment of the elective franchise in large towns—
(H a, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—but he thought
that it would have been wise to have retained this class of
voters in certain boroughs. The very ground upon which
they gave the franchise to 10/. householders in large
towns, where the population was large, would have
justified them in retaining this clam; of voters in boroughs
where the population was small ; and lie believed that the
only means of promoting the permanence of the measure
would be to retain such boroughs as Dorchester.
Mr. JOHN STANLEY (who was very indistinctly
heard i❑ the gallery) said that the discussions of that even-
ing were a proof that any concession, no matter how fair
and just, only led to demands for farther concessions which
had nothing of fairness or justice in them ; and he was
convinced, that if what had been asked with regard to
Appleby had been granted, instead of being, as it had
been, most justly and righteously refused, there would not
have l:een a single borough in schedule A with regard to
which similar claims would not have been put forward,
and that there would not have been a single borough re-
turned in schedule B. He could not help congratulating
the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. G. Banke:) upon

his constitutional fears, lest, by any alteration in the exist-
ing law, Members, on accepting office, should not necessa-
rily be sent back to their constituents ; and that so a great,
popular, and constitutional controul over the appointment
of a Ministry should be lost. But where did the Hon.
Member find that controul under the pr, sent system ? Did
not the Hon. Memter recollect, that when a Right Hon.
Baronet opposite was rejected by his constitmnts at Ox-
ford, he took refuge in the small borough of Westbury ?
_(Loud and continued cries of " Hear" front the Oppo-
sit:on.) If the gentlemen opposite would be good enough
to listen, they would find that his argument was not at all
favourable to their views upon this subject.—(Renewed
cries of " Hear" from the Opposition.) Let the gentle-
men opposite cheer what he was about to say now. Could
it make any difference,—with regard to this supposed
popular controul,—whether a Minister sat in that House
es-officio, or whether a Minister were turned over to
the patron of a nomination borough, to be returned
by such pat: on ?—(Continued cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) Did the Honourable Member for Corfe Castle
mean to say that a man was sent back to his constituents,
and that a popular check and controul was exercised, when
that roan, having vacated his seat fur one place, was re-
turned fur Westbury or any similar borough ?—(Cheers.)
With regard to the case now before them, the case of
Dorchester, it was admitted that it did not come up to the
line which had been laid down ; and as Ministers must
by this time have seen that one concession would only
have the effect of provoking demands for another, lie did
trust that they would adhere rigidly to that line, both in
the case of this and of every other borough.
Mr. A. BARING thought Dorchester a very proper
case for exception. He verily believed, that if Major
Cartwright were alive, the hair of his head would stand
on end, ardent Reformer as he was, at the news that a Mi-
nistry bad introduced a measure of Reform which went to
the disfranchisement of county towns. He thought that
the most unjustifiable part of this Bill was the disfranchise.
ment of such places as Guildford and Dorchester, which
had in them the important feature that they were county
towns. The Hon. Member then went into a long argu-
ment upon the principle of the Bill generally, and con-
cluded by complaining that the measure was forced upon
the House without deliberation, the Ministers shutting
their ears to reason, and declining either to adduce argu-
ments themselves, or to answer the arguments brought
forwerd by the gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of
the house.—(blear, and laughter )
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it was ex-
tremely difficult for gentlemen ou his side the House to
know what course they ought to pursue. If they made
speeches in reply as long as the provocative speeches of
their adversaries, it was quite clear that they should be
playing the game of their adversaries.—(Hear.) Then
again, although this [louse of Commons, or, at least, that
part of it opposite, affected to be shocked by nothing so
touch as by bad manners, it did not—or at least that part
of it opposite did not,—always treat gentlemen, who rose
to answer their arguments, in the most polished manner.
The gentlemen opposite had more than once insinuated
that this House of Commons was to leave a kind of testa-
mentary example to their successors, who, as they were
to be Members of Reformed Parliaments, must of ne-
cessity, as it seemed to the gentlemen opposite, be vastly
ungenteel ; but if those gentlemen thought that the ex-
ample of this Parliament would be of so much importance
to succeeding ones, let hint suggest to them that it might
be as well not to receive the speeches of their opponents
with laughter,—not to interrupt a gentleman in the
middle of a sentence with a vociferous cheer, nor to con-
duct themselves in other respects in such a manner as to
sully that reputation for gentility and good breeding, and
good manners,
which they so frequently boasted that this
Parliament possessed, and which they prognosticated that
no succeeding Parliament, because Reformed, could possess
in any thing like an equal degree.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Another mode of treating the arguments from that (the
Minis'erial) side of the House was by replying, " 011 !
that's no answer at all." Now such answers happene Ito
be the best they could give, though they were generally
shortly expressed, and not in that plausible and solemn
manner, nor at that wearisome length, with which, on the
other side, one and the same string of arguments against
the Bill were so constantly repeated upon every part of the
details of the Bill..—(Hear, hear.) if the gentlemen on
that (the Ministerial) side did give an answer, they were
told that it was no answer at all ; and, if they gave no an-
swer, then it was said they had mine to give. The Gen-
tlemen opposite might continue to pursue this course if they
pleased ; but then they must allow him and his lion.
Friends to choose whether they would speak under such
circumstances or remain silent. The lion. Gentleman
(Mr. A. Baring) who had just sat down, had exclaimed in
agony and astonishment, " Good God ! you are about to
disfranchise a county town." This, however, was a mis-
take ; they were going to do no such thing. They were
merely going to deprive a county town of one Member,
and they were going to do this because the return of one
Member was as much as its fair share in the general re-
presentation of the country. But suppose they had been
going to disfranchise a county town, what then ? Pray
where had the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. A. Baring)
found, in his constitutional reading, that there was any
necessary connexion between representation and a
county town ?—(Hear, hear, bear.) Chelmsford, which
was the county town of Essex, returned no Members;
Mansfield was the county town of Nottinghamshire, and
it returned no Members ; the same was true of other
county towns, and be had never heard that they were the
worse for not returning Members, any more than he had
ever heard that Wilton was the better because it did re-
turn Mervbers. They had been told, toe, that they were
sitting now upon a judicial inquiry. This he denied.
However, if it were so, then let them see how the gen-
tlemen on the other side acted in their judicial capacity,
An Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Warrender) opposite had told
them that be entreated a fair, calm, and dispassionate con-
sideration of the case of Dorchester; and why ? Because
the case of Dorchester was the same as the case of the
lion. Baronet's own borough. This was the conduct of
one of the judges ; and if they were upon a judicial in-
quiry, be certainly could not perceive the propriety of
such an appeal from one of the bench.—(liear, hear.)
And now what was the question at present before the
Committee ? it was this • there had been laid down a

certain line, and It*As.admitted that Dorchester was be-
low that line. The quehtion then was—whether it sbou'd
lose one of its Members? It was contended that it ought
not to lose one of its Members, because by adding to the

•
population of Dorchester the population of a neighbour-
ing town, a population of 4,018 would be producel.
Now he put it to the House whether it was in con-
formity with reason and argument, or whether the
straightforward and plain course was to adhere to the
line.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He thought in common con-
sistency they were bonnd to adhere to the line, and be-
tween that course and the utter abandonment of the line,
he could perceive no mode of proceeding which would
not lead to the most fluctuating, perhaps the most con-
flicting, results.—(Hear.) He fully concurred with the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. John Stanley) near him, that one
concession only led to demands for another; and he did
trust that the Ministers would agree to no farther conces-
sion.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) opposite had, in speaking of this line, permitted
himself to use the word " absurdity;" to speak of the
absurdity of the line, which absurdity, according to the
Right Hon. Baronet, consisted in their reducing the con-
stituency of Dorchester from 500 to 300. But in the
first place the line did no such thing, for all existing rights
were preserved during the life-time of those entitled to
those rights, and it would, therefore, be many years befog e
this reduction took place, if ever it took place at all.
Then, again, the Right lion. Baronet had characterized
the line as an absurd one, because it passed over a partieu-

lar class of voters ; but, in the name of common sense,
must not every line do the same?—(Hear)—must not some
persons ever be excluded, whatevever arrangement might
be made, if that arrangement stopped short of universal
suffrage?—(Hear, hear.) He supposed that the Right Hon.
Baronet did not wish that any persons under the age of
21 should be entitled to vote at elections ; but might nut

the young gentlemen of twenty and a half adopt the argu-
m,nt of the Right Hon. Baronet, and say that they were
heartlessly and arbitrarily used by the law ?—(Hear, hear.)
Might not these young gentlemen, who wanted so little
of the legal age, who came so near to what they might
think the absurd legal line—might not one of these say,
as the friends of the borough of Dorchester said, " How
hard is my case ; I am stronger and tiller than my brother,
who is twenty-one ; I earn more money than he does ; I
know more than he does; I am in a more flouri•hiug con-
dition than he is; and yet, because I am six months younger
I am not to be allowed a vote, though he has one."—
(Cheers and laughter.) The argument of such a gentle-
man would be quite as good as the argument in favour of
Dorchester, and such a young gentleman would have just
as much show of reasoning in calling the law heartless,
arbitrary, and absurd, as the Right Hon. Baronet had in
applying those epithets to the line which excluded Dor-
chester frotn returning two Members to Parliament. In
a word, the direct consequence of the Right Hon.
Baronet's argument was, that the suffrage should be uni-
versal ; for if a line were drawn short of that, there would
always be a large numi er of discontented persons who would
come near the line, and whose claims, therefore, to the
suffrage would, by the Right Hon, Baronet's mode of
reasoning, be just and equitable claims. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman concluded by regretting that Hon.
Members had not confined their observations to the case
before the Committee, and deferred the discussion into
which they had embarked until they came to the 10/.

clause.
Sir G. WARRENDER wondered where the Learned
Attorney-General bad learned his law, that led bins to con-
demn persons without evidence. His (Sir G. Warrender's)
constituents were more pure than those of Nottingham.
He had incurred the resentment of the Hon. and Learned
Gent'eman because he defended the scot and lot voters. It
was the reckless desire of change that bud dictated this
measure,—not a desire to benefit the constituency of the
country. Other countries were now looking with fearful
anxiety to our proceedings, which he feared would make
shipwreck of all our hopes of good government.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose merely to dissuade the
Committee from continuing this irregular discussion. The
Hon. Baronet had been exceedingly eloquent as to the
effects of this measure ; but really the only question was,
whether Dorchester should have one Member or two.—
(Hear.) The population was under the line, and however
he might regret the penalty in this instance, he must vote
for its continuance in schedule B.

Mr. CHOKER .id, that the speech of the Noble Lord
had only one fault ; it was an answer to the Attorney.
General instead of the lion. Baronet ; for it was the lion.
and Learned Gentleman who abandoned Dorchester, and
hail entered into a discussion of almost every thing else ;

he had even given them a lecture upon manners, mirabile
dicta ! The Attorney-General had turned master of the
ceremonies to the House of Commons.—(Cheers from the
Opposition.) But when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
talked of interruption, he should direct his glances behind
him. —(llear ) No one more deplored interruption—no
one had more reason—...than he (Mr. Croker); but did the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman mean that the interruption
was not in the exact proportion of numbers ?—that there
was not a majority of interruption on his side?—(" Hear,"
from the Opposition.) No man ought to follow two
trades. Having taken up the task master, the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman ought to lay down the lawyer.—
(Hear.) His Hon. Friend had said that the population
of Dorchester was 4,018. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman not being able to grapple with this argument, had
endeavoured to get rid of it by a sneer ; he said it ex-
ceeded the number by the paltry sum of 18—the paltry
sum.—(" Hear" from the Opposition.) Why Mahon had
only five more, Harwich only ten.—(Hear.) Here was
a line drawn : they showed that Dorchester was within
it, and the Attorney-General had told them, it was only
the paltry number of IS.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL denied he had used
such an expression.
Mr. CROKER—It was the hypothetical argument of
the lion. and Learned Gentleman. Ile had denied that it
was over the line, but said if it was, it was only by a small,
or, as he understood him, a paltry number. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had, however, answered one
thing ; he had answered the speech of an Hon. Friend of
his, which had been spoken last night. lie (Mr. Croker)
had been led into this excursion from Dorchester.—
(Laughter from the Treasury Benches.) That was a
commentary on the lecture of the Attorney-General.—
(Hear, hear.) Those gentlemen, however, must take
care, or they would get a good roasting from the Attor-
ney-General for disobedience of orders. The Right lion.
Gentleman proceeded to contend that Dorchester con-
sisted of three parishes, inter mania, for it was originally
a walled town, and its population within the liberties was
really 4,600.
Mr. HUNT, when he thought of what was to be eone
with Caine, rotten ditty Caine and Saltash, and what was
to be done with Dorchester, a respectable county town,
was astonished at the principle, and there would be a ge-
neral question in the country as to its justice
The Committee then divided, when there appeared,
For the question 279
Against it
Majority for the question —B6
The question, " That Droitwich stand part of the
schedule," was carried without a division.
The question, " Th tt Evesham stand part of the sche-
dule," was carried, after a few words from Mr. Hudson,
Mr. Cresset Pelham, and Sir C. Cockerell.
On the question " That Great Grimsby stand part of
the schedule,"
bouiatnat4,tohoaot
inhabitants,tlie nhtiitgwas, he would -amud,elurriniteraeil,y,nsbar,outgbialt,
Mr. SIIELLEY had intendad to say a few words'
although, by the returns of 1821, the borough had less
schedule
i. i s
nor a decayed borough, but a highly thriving and pros-
perous I
in HARRlSschedule
erriomusbsby wag
a borough.
until
Captain
ied that
•f hrotten borough. He would not consent to
teain cA.
o that borough,indeed, boroughnii)e, i:voars oo
o uegf n
vi
he Greatintheeedr
Grimsby
in
that the Members of that House were inconvenient in their
numbers.—(A laugh.) Great Grimsby was an ancient
borough, and had a right to victual the fleet in time of
war. It was a port which had excavated a large basin.—
(Laughter.) He had not heard any borough defended in
a similar manner.—(Laughter renewed.) lie would riot
be put down by laughter.—(Hear.) It was a port which
had yielded in custom-house duties, from the 6th of June,
1830, to the sth of June, 1831, 30,5971. 159. 4d.—
(Great laughter.) When he told the Hon. Committee
that it had doubled its population in the interval between
1811 and 1821, and that it had increased more than a
thousand souls in the interval between 1821 and 1831,
he thought that he had laid strong grounds for not dis-
franchising this borough. He would venture to prophecy
that it would double its population in the interval between
1831 and 1811. With these observations he would leave
the borough of Grimsby in the hands of the Committee.
Mr. SIBTHORPE could not let this borough go into the
merciless hands of the Committee, without bearing his
testimony to its respectability and independence. lie coded
on the lion. Members for Wareham and Bletchingly, who
had formerly represented this borough, to state whether
they had not repeatedly addressed the electors of Grimsby
as free awl independent electors. At present Grimsby
was any thing but a nomination borough, but it it were
only to return one Member, a great Whig Lord• in that
neighbourhood, who possessed 100 acres where other
gentlemen of the district only possessed a road, would un-
doubtedly become its patron, and it would sick iota the