The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

NOUSE OF LORDS, Aritm 14.
he Annual Indemnity Bill was brought up to the bar
of the House by a message from the Commons.
THE BEER BILL.

The Earl of MALMESBURY said, that the Magis-
tracy of the country bad had some opportunity of ascer-
taining the effects of the Beer Bill which had been passed
in the last session, and he thought it proper that the at-
tention of the House should be called to the subject. He
should at present content himself with moving for certain
returns which would enable their Lordships to form an
accurate judgment of what the effect of the Bill had been
throughout the country, and particularly in the agricul-
tural districts. He wished the House to be in possession
of information on the subject, for it was his opinion that
the Bill had in its operation been of a pernicious tendency,
and in saying this he could particularly allude to the agri-
cultural districts. He wished to ascertain the nu:nber of
licences that had been taken out under the new Act, and
he should move that there be laid before this House a re-
turn of the number of licences for the sale of beer, that
had been taken out under the Act of 10th George IV.
c. 64, to the latest period to which the account can be
made out, distinguishing the several counties in which
such licences had been granted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that it was not his
intention to trespass upon the time of their Lordships,
but he wished to take the present opportunity of merely
saying a few words, lest it should otherwise go forth to
the public, and particularly to those who had an interest
in the Bill, that his Majesty's Ministers felt themselves
averse to the measure that had been passed in the last Ses-
sion of Parliament. All lie had wanted was, to have the
matter properly inquired into, and to seek for evidence
sufficient to convince him and other persons whether the
charges which bad been made against the Bid had arisen
from prejudices and interested motives, or whether they
were founded in fact. The object of introducing the Beer
Bill into the House was, that beer should not be allowed
to be drunk upon the premises; but his Majesty's Go-
vernment at present had been satisfied by the evidence
taken before the Committee, that the clauses which made
this enactment were necessary: Ile would acknowledge
that he was aware that great evils had arisen from the
Bill, in one or two districts, and he particularly alluded to
the counties of Hants, Wilts, and Somerset. The same
effects, however, had not been produced in the northern
counties, where he had the best opportunity of being ac-
quainted with its effects. Neither the clergy, the Dis-
senters, nor the landlords in the north, had made any
complaints of the operation of the Bill, or of its effects
upon the habits of the poorer classes. It was proper to
examine into the subject carefully, and to scrutinize the
nature of the proposed changes, for the mischiefs which
might have arisen from the measure might be only tem-
porary and consequent upon a sudden change of system ;
for if changes did occasionally produce evils, they
were of a temporary nature, and compensated for by the
ultimate working of the new system. Until the Howse
were in possession of full information upon the subject,
and until every precaution had been taken, he could not
see the propriety of making changes in a law under which
so many vested interests had already been formed.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said that inquiry into the
subject was all he at present wanted, and he did not know
that a better way of obtaining information could be de-
-1 vised than that of granting a Committee.
The Earl of CA RNARVON conceived that the Bill, in
its effects, had turned out to be a pernicious measure, and
as vested interests were daily growing up under its pro-
tection, he thought that investigation ought not to be de-
-1 layed.
Lord SKELMERSDALE thought that the House
aioughtagi s
Magistrates
s .f
be put
theinto
country
ofi then to answers w
the
it circularter, which the Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, had sent throughout the country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the evidence
teic h
ltehte_
already produced upon the subject was sufficient to satisfy
the minds of most persons. He was far from insinuating
any thing against those Magistrates that had reported
against the Beer Bill, but at the same time he could not
shut his eyes to the infirmities of nature, nor could be for-
get what was likely to be produced by the fact, that the
Bill took from the Magistrates the only patronage possessed
by a Justice of the Peace—the power of granting licenses.
As long as nature was nature, as long as man was man,
there was a frailty within him which would bias his judg-
ment, and one person would see an object in a very dif-
ferent point of view from another, according as their in-
terests were differently affected by it. He was far from
impugning the Magistrate", but nevertheless, from the
causes he had stated, their report must be considered as,
in some measure, drawn up under a bias of the judgment.

The Earl of MALMES.BURY said that he felt sea e
surprise that the Noble Lord upon the woolsack should
impugn the whole Magistracy of the country, and declare
that every Magistrate was capable of making an official
report under the influence of a bias produced by his per-
sonal interests. He (Lord Malmesbury) believed that the
Magistrates were incapable, from any such motives, of
giving incorrect information to the Executive Govern.
ment. It was, in point of fact, quite ridiculous, that the
Noble Lord at the bead of the Home Department should
address the circular he had addressed to the Magistrates of
the country, if hie Majesty's Ministers had entertained of
them such opinions as had been that night uttered by the
Noble Lord on the woolsack. He had no desire to press
his motion ; but he certainly did wish to know what was
the number of houses that had been licensed under the pre-
sent Bill.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was indiffe-
rent to him whether the returns were pressed for or not,
and in that particular the Noble Earl might take the
coins, which he thought best ; but it was not a natter of
indifference to him to be held up to the public as having
made an attack upon the Magistracy of the country which
he never had made, and which it had never been his in-
tention to make. He appealed to their Lordships whether
what lie had said could bear the shadow of a shads—the
show of a semblance—of an attack upon the Magistrates.
He had always admitted that the Justices of the Peace
were a useful body of men—useful professionally, ju-
dicially, and in every respect, and he was far from impugn-
ing them, or impeaching their conduct. All that he had
done was, to suppose them not exempt from the general
laws of our common nature, and to state that Ministers
ought to bear this in mind when they were called upon
to judge, not of the evidence, but of the opinions of the
magistrates. He would defy any man, or body of men, to
be exempt from what was the common lot of all men, and
all men would have their opinions biassed by a system
under which they enjoyed power, and be inclined against a
change by which that power was to be taken from them.
If lie had not taken this opportunity of meeting the Noble
Earl's accusation in the way he bad done, the charge of
his having attacked the Magistrates of the country would
have been repeated here and in other places ; and it would
have gone forth that his Majesty's Ministers were adverse
to the whole body of the Magistracy. The observations
which he had made were r.ot in favour of any measure
which had been introduced by himself or his friends, for '
the Bill in question had been brought forward by his pre-
decessors in office.

The Marquis of SALISBURY maintained that the
Bill had not worked well as far as the morals of the lower
orders were concerned ; but yet it had not been found to
have all the bad effects which had been attributed to it.

Lord MELBOURNE could state, on the part of him-
self and his colleagues, that they had not made up their
minds with respect to the Bill. He was desirous of hav-
ing the best information upon the subject, and he thought
that longer time Ought to be taken to ascertain bow
the Bill actually worked. Measures of this sort un-
dertaken by Ministers were always attended by the in-
convenience of disturbing the public mind ; but com-
plaints had become so extremely numerous. that he should
not have thought it consistent with his duty if he had not
taken the step be had done to obtain full and clear infor-
mation upon the subject. He entertained great respect for
the Magistracy, and he considered that it had afforded him
very full information upon the effects and operations of
the Bill ; but at the same time being well aware that the
imputations which had been now urged would be cast
upon the Magistrates, he had directed his circular to
other bodies of men. He bad felt that the subject was of
great and permanent importance to the morals and well-
being of the country, and that the closest attention should
be given to it. He hoped that the Bill would ultimately
be found beneficial.

The motion was then put and carried.
The Archbishop of YORK presented numerous peti-
tions against the slave trade, chiefly from dissenting con-
gregations, or places the names of which were repeated in
too low a voice to be heard at the bar.
REFORM OF PARLIAMENT.

The Earl of HADDINGTON said that he rose to pre-
sent to their Lordships' House a petition from an impor-
tant county against the Bill which a Noble Lord had in-
troduced into the other House, for the object of reforming
the representation in Parliament. So many occasions had
lately been taken to depreciate county petitions, that he
felt himself called upon tom indicate the rights of the landed
seinntetedres:sutpoonspeiankatttehresirofopsiuncihonshiwithith?ut being Tisrelr;
importance.
meeting from which the- petition bi4Proer It
what was commonly called
a "le-5a4
and it WAS
Was it meeting called by a public requisition,

inclined to pay much attention to county petitions unless
they were numerously signed, hut if the weight and im-
portance of those who attended a meeting gave any con-
sequence trig petition, he should claim the utmost deference
to that which he would now pi c-ent. He could take
upon Itimself to say, that there were few persons at the
Mee ti ng in question that were not the representatives of
!landed property. A difference of opinion had prevailed
at the meeting, but it had subsided, and the result
was the voting of a petition, praying that the Reform
13111 now before the House of Commons should not pass
into a law. The petition stated that the petitioners,
though against the Reform Bill, were not averse to such
a 'Reform as would be consistent with the established Con-
stitution of the country. This, he must confess, was a
new feature in petitions from that part of the United King-
dom (Scotland), and the question of Reform was t:o longer
one of principle, hut a question of degree. What degree
of Reform petitioners might want it was not for him to
say, and perhaps the petitioners might not go lo fir as he
was inclined to go; for he thought it essential for the

safety of the institutions of the country that the measure
of Reform should go far enough to conciliate the opinions
of the great bulk of the intellect and respectability of the
country. The petitioners prayed that the right of voting
should be continued to all places at present possessed of it.
and in this prayer he cordially agreed. The principle of
disfranchisement was dangerous in itself, and fraught with
the oust evil consequences, and the qualification of ten
pounds was not founded in any established principle what-
ever. The petitioners next speak of the manner in which
the Reform Bill would affect the interests of their own

county. They did not Oject to the granting of reprc-
eentatives to 'large manufacturing towns, nor to the ge-
neral regulation of elections ; but they protested against
dividing the representation of counties, and thus de-

priving them of the privileges they derived by the
treaty of the Union. If this alluded to what was
proposed with respect to the counties of Selkirk and

Peebles, he had no hesitation in sayinz th.t in this

particular the Bill ought to be altered.. ia his opinion the

time was come that the principle of popular elections must be
introduced into Scotland. The petiT ioners sta.ed that the

proposed plan of Reform would have the effect of subvert-

ing the due influence of property, and of conveying the
privilege of returning Members to persona of small pos-

sessions. If the Bill were to remain in its present state,
he should certainly concur in the views of the petitioners.
It was established by the returns before the Hose, that
the people inhabiting towns would have the preponderance

in returning Members who ought to he re.turned by the

landed interest.

The ink afnted houses in Scotland

amounted to 351,000 tdd liundreds. The inhabited
house-tax upon such of these as were rated at above 10/.
a year, amounted to 35,700/. Of this, 25,0361. was

levied upon houses rated at between 101. and 20/. a year.
The whole constituency of Scotland was calculated by
the Noble Loud who had introduced the till at about

60,000, and by the inhabited house tax it would appear
that more than ono-half of this constituency would con-

silit of householders, and of these 25,000 would consist of

very small householder.. He did not know that the in-

hal;ited house-tax was any crittrion, for taxation by the
present 'dill was not referred to. It was enacted, that
the sheriffs of counties were to decide the value of the

houses, and if the owners thought themselves aggrieved,
the appeal lay from the sheriff alone to the sheriff and
a jury ; and lastly, the appeal might be carried even
to the House of Loris. The people of Scotland,

therefore, dreaded the introduction of such a system

of endless litigation, with all its consequences of fraud
and perjury. He did not know upon what prin-
ciple at present the bouse-tax was laid, fir to his
knowledge a great many houses worth more than 10/.

year escaped taxation. By the clsuse in the present Bill
a house and land might be valued together, so that small
houses rated at only 5/. a-year, if they had a little land at-
tached to them, would be valued at 101, and acquire the
right of voting. The country would be overwhelmed by
voters of this petty description. He was certain that very
mistaken notions prevailed amongst people in England en

this point, owing to the different manner in which build-
iogs were managed in Scotland from the mode in which
they were managed in this country. The Bill provided
that building leases should not give a right to vote unless
where they were for 501. a-year, but in Scotland, where
buildings were leased out in perpetuity, the Bill would
confer the right of voting. Ile was sure that it would be
extremely difficult to strike out a proper mode for esta-
blishing a constituency in populous towns in Scotland ;
but in towns where there was a large population his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, by carefully attending to all the sugges-
tions which might be made to them from competently in-
formed quarters, and by proceeding with due caution and
deliberation, might be able to furnish a good system of
popular election in Scotland, which would he understood
there, which would lead to no chicanery, and which would
be quite satisfactory. With regard to the whole measure
of Reform, he trusted that when it came to be discussed,
it would be recollected, both in that House and in the
other House of Parliament, that while that measure intro-
deiced a great and important change into the existing state
of the representation even in England, the change which it
went to introduce into Scotland would he a complete and
entire novelty there, where, during the last 300 or 400 years,
except in some of the borough towns, nothing like a popular
e'ection had been known. In making that statement, he
only stated an undoubted fact, and it was one which ren-
ds red n,cessary the application of great caution and de-
liberation to the consideration of a measure which was in-
tended to introduce a popular system of election into that
country. There was no country in the world where all
the relations and dependencies of social life were in a
happier state than they were and had b.en in Scotland for
many years, and he hoped sincerely and anxiously that
nothing. could come from Parliament which would tend
to impair or endanger such a state of things.—( Hear.)
He would not take upon himself to say that any thing
which Parliament would do upon this subject would have
such an effect ; but, nevertheless, it was impossible to con-
template the great change which it was proposed to intro-
duce into Scotland, without anxiety as to its result ; and
he should be grieved indeed, if that result should he to
disorganize the social relation., at present existing in that
country, for at such a rate political franchises would cer-
tainly lie dearly purchased. He should not, on this occa-
sion, go further into the general question, but would con-
clude by stating that the prayer of the petition was, that
the Bill now before Parliament should not pass into a law.

The Earl of EOSEBERY s:irl, that as one of the
largest landed proprietors in the county of Dlintiorgh, he
felt called upon to make a few remarks on this occasion,
both upon the petition which had been presented, and the
statement which had been made by his Noble Friend who
had just sat down. Ile was ready at once to admit that
several of the names attached to the petition were those
of gentlemen of rank, of ancient family, and con-
siderable property, in the county of Edinburgh. He
would also say that many others of the petitioners
were known to him either personally or by reputa-
tion—that they were valued for their character and
worth, and that in fact all those who had signed this
petition were men of respectability, whose opinions were
undoubtedly worthy of attention. But there were two
points connected with this and all other county petitions
which had been, or which would be, presented front Scot-
land on the subject of Reform, which should never be for-
gotten when the value and importance of such petitions
were to be duly and fairly estimated. The first point was,
that county meetings in Scotland in no respect or degree
whatever resestahled county meetings in England. The
county meetings in Scotland were not constituted, as in
this country, of every description of persons of property
and intelligence in the county. The county meetings in
t.eotland comprised a particular class of persons, many of
whom had no property in the county in which the meet-
ing took place. The second point to which he wished to
direct the attention of their Lordships, as connected with
those
county petitions from Scotland, was, that the great
En3wity of the individuals who attended those meetings
were_ personally and directly interested in the opposing
the change which it was proposed to make in the repre-
sentation of that county. lie was not prepared to go into
an analysis of till, petition
on this occasion, to demonstrate
that it completely camebonder the class of petitions which
he had just described
names of
lookingf at the petition, he saw
appended to it the
of o several persons who had no
property in the county
taro fact also, that Several th; and he was sure of
were debarred who were possessed of
pperty in that countY.
was
sarred from attending the
adopted,met.
meeting at which this petition
number
in Scotland,
i a a
Cnola)enrt
because,. owing
to the peculiar constitution of county meetings
they would have no voice there.
of persons
who had signed the petition was 62,
popu-
lation of which, after deducting the population the
ion both of
the city of Edinburgh and the town of Leith, amounted to
33,000. He begged further to remark, that it appeared
from a return which bad been laid upon their Lordships'
table, that in the county of Edinburgh there were 461
proprietors rated at la and upwards. Now he would
contend, that until a meeting of the county of Edinburgh
should be beld,,at which those 464 persons could attend
and have a voice, their Lordships would not be able to
• rtain the real feelings ef that county w.ith regard t.o_
ascertain the
of Reform ; and. he. was..conyince.d, that it
such a meetinr, should he called, the petition whichrotilist
be adopted at it would be of a very different character front
that which had emanated from those sixty-two intim
Aoki.. The obaarvationa which he bad ;ludo va tklll r

it

tition applied also to the other petitions which were in i
progress from the other counties in Scotland. He had
made out a list of the number of persons who had attended
four or five county meetings in Scotland at which peti-
tions had been adopted, and the English Peers in that
House would be somewhat disappointed when they found
what was the character of such county meetings. In the
county of Perth—the largest in Scotland—a very opulent
county, with a population amounting to 140,000, and
containing, according to a return on their table, between
700 and 800 persons rated for a property of 101. and
upwards, the number that voted at a county meeting,
convened to consider the question of Reform, consisted of
a majority of 58 against it, and a minority of 36 in
favour of it, and that was what was called a large county
meeting in Scotland. In the county of Banff, which con-
tained a considerable population and a great number of
landowners, the amount of persons that attended a county
meeting at which a petition had been adopted in favour of
the measure, consisted of thirteen who voted for the pe-
tition, and four who voted against it. In the county of
Moray eight persons attended the county meeting, five of
whom voted against Reform, and three in favour of it.
In Selkirk, which was undoubtedly a small county,
six persons attended the county meeting, three of
whom voted for, and three against the measure of Reform.
In the county of H iddington, which was an opulent and
wealthy county, the meeting was composed of twenty per-
sons ; no petition was adopted at that county meeting, but
several speeches were made, and a variety of resolutions
were passed, and twelve of the persons present voted
against the measure, and eight in favour of it. These de-
tails would show to their Lordships what was the real na-
ture of Scotch county meetings—how they were consti-
tuted as regarded those who could attend and vote at
them ; and having laid these details before their Lord-
ships, he would heave them to judge whether petitions from
such meetings could he considered as justly expressing the
opinions of the landed proprietors of Scotland on this snb-
ject. For his part he would say, that neither the petition
from the county of Edinburgh, nor the petitions from the
other counties in Scotland, at all in his mind afforded an
evidence, either as regarded property or as regarded popu-
lation, of the feeling which existed in Scotland upon the
subject of Reform. Ile hoped that under this qualifica-
tion and reservation all those county petitions from Scot-
land on the subject of Reform would be for the future re-
ceived in that House. He should not go further into a
discussion of the general principle of the measure on this
occa-ion than to state, that all who entertained the opi-
i ion that Reform was necessary in the southern parts of the
kingdom, must he of opinion, notwithstanding the extreme
novelty to which his Noble Friend hadalluded, as applicable
to such a measure, that Reform was doubly necessary in
Scotland. In a country like Scotland, where every part
of the representative system required amendment, he was
ready to admit that the question ought to he entertained
with caution and wisdom, but, he would also add, with
sincerity, efficiency, and in good earnest. If the present
opportunity for amending that system should be allowed to
pass by, it might happen that no opportunity would here-
after present itself for effecting it. By introducing such
a Reform into Scotland, they would at once elevate the
character of the people of Scotland, and the character of
their representatives, rendering them more worthy of their
confidence, and better calculated to discharge the important
duties which devolved upon them as Members of Parlia-
zusnt. By introducing such a Reform there, they would
demonstrate that there could not he a greater fallacy than
that which had been advanced by many persons, and which
he had often heard propounded with no lack of boldness,
but with an entire lack of argument,—namely, that the
extraordinary prosperity of Scotland was attributable ‘to
the state of its representation. He was of opinion that
many persona who made that statement did not themselves
believe it, and that those who did believe it had mistaken
the means by which a great and beneficial evil had been
achieved. He should reserve what he had further to say
until the time for discussing the Bill regarding Scotland
should arrive, when he hoped to be able to point out
some improvements, the introduction of which into the
Bill would render it more perfect and efficient, and more
analogous to the particular institutions of that country
which it was intended to ameliorate. In conclusion, he
begged to disclaim any went of courtesy or respect
towards those petitioners, for to both his courtesy and his
respect he felt that they were fully entitled : at the same
time that he had felt it his duty to exercise that freedom
which, as a Member of that House, he possessed, in exa-
mining the distinct merits of this petition, and in pointing •
out to their Lordships the real weight which ought to be
attached to it.
The Duke of BUCCLEUGH did not deny the statement
of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, that this petition
had emanated from but a sm ill number of persons in the
county of Edinburgh, but the majority of them were per-
sons who had large properties there. He had no doubt
that if they held out to the 464 persons to whom the Noble
Earl had alluded the option of having a vote or not, that
they would be for a measure which would give them the
right of voting. It was a fret that the most mistaken
nations were abroad in Scotland regarding this Bill, and he
believed that the far greater portion of the lower classes in
that country were not aware of its real nature, or of what
it would give them, and that they were totally mistaken as
to the advantages which they expected to derive from it.
—(Hear, heart) He could inform their Lordships that
the prevailing impression amongst those classes in Scot-
land was, that this Bill would give them a right to vote in
the counties ; that after it passed, there would be no more
excisemen,—no more gaugers ; that they should have a
free trade ; that whiskey would be cheap, &c. He was
aware of the fact that such an impression had been created
amongst the lower classes of the people in Scotland, by
persona who were going about the country there, exciting
the most absurd expectations amongst the people, and in
dustriously promoting an agitation, the fruits of which
were witnessed in the riots that had lately occurred in Edin-
burgh. He could not understand why Selkirk should he
disfranchised, or why it should be joined to Peebles-shire.
But he should defer stating his reasons for objectit.g to the
Bill altogeth,T, until it had come regularly before them.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a similar peti-
tion from certain persona who had not been able to attend
the meeting at which the petition he had previously pre-
sented had been adopted. In doing so he begged to say
that lie did not deny that those petitions came from a small
numt,er of persons, but he only claimed for them that
weight and attention to which their respectability entitled
them. Ile only asked that respect for their petition
which would be given to the petition of the gentry of

Hampshire, or any other English county.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition
from the noblemen, freeholders, justices of the peace, and
to mnissioners of supply of the county of Dumbarton,
complaining of the extensive and sweeping Reform which
was contemplated by the Reform Bill as regarded Scotland.
He observed that there was no part of the country which,
during the last 50 )ears, had been inure progressively and
uniformly prosperous than Scotland ; that was a fact
which could not be disputed, and he here remembered,
with particular satisfaction, a remark which had been made
once by a Noble Friend of his, whose loss at present
he every day saw more reason to deplore,—he meant the
late Earl of Liverpool,—that Scotland was in every respect
the best conditioned country in the world ; yet this was the
country into which his Majesty's Ministers proposed to
introduce what the petitioners called " a sweeping Re-
form." He begged to say that whatever might be the
difference between the county meetings in Scotland and
the county meetings held in England and elsewhere, it
was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers, particularly when
they were about to propose a change which went to alter
that which had been settled by the Act of Union, and by
a solemn treaty between the two countries, to have con-
sulted the opinions and wishes of the great landed pro-
prietors in Scotland before they brought forward a mea-
sure of that description. He begged to move, " That
this important petition be printed."
Lord KING remarked, that seeing the importance
which the Noble Duke was anxious to attach to this peti-
tion, be supposed that the Noble Duke thought that the
county meeting at which it had been adopted was at least
no farce.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he rose to
present a petition on the subject of Ref,rni, to which, not-
withstanding the number of petitions which had been pre-
sented on that question, be felt it his duty to call the at-
tention of their Lordship, not only on account of the
number of signatures appended to it, but on account of
the great respectability of the parties from whom the peti-
tion emanated. It was adopted at a public meeting con-
vened in the city of Lontion,and held in the Egyptian-hall,
consisting of the merchants, bankers, and other traders of
the metropolis ; and when he stated that eight or nine-
tenths of those persons who came fairly under that descrip•
tion had signed this petition—that in point of fact it
had been signed by almost all the respectable merchants,
and that altogether it bad attached to it the names of
aboutn 9,000 persons, filling the rank of traders in Lon-
don, he was sure that their .Lordships would see that it
was highly deserving of their attention. He was not de-
sirous on this occasion to revive in that House the irre-
gular, though certainly' not useless discussion, upon the
general sulteet
t oci f
the the
lea t e recess measure, which had taken
•,,,
to _the
could not avoid
there prey;
wecbuolitanr
thisalue o
calling the attention of the Hous
• the opinions of that class of persons froemp
titian emanated. Having been one of those who Ilalaed-
lyvi their wait to dab! Latioure, of deform, solely on

the ground that they thought it calculated to strengthen '
and render permanent the invaluable establishments under
which we had the happiness to live, he was glad to find
interested
not opinions of persons who were most deeply
not only in the permanency of our establishments, but in
the continuance of the peace and tranquillity of the
country, thus expressed in favour of the measure of Re-
form which had been brought forward by his Majesty's
Ministers. He was rejoiced to find persons whose most va-
luable interests were closely interwoven with the existence of
those institutions, and with the peace of the country, thus
coming forward, after having maturely considered the
.de-
tails of the Reform Bill, and expressing their conviction
that the adoption of such a Reform by Parliament would
tend most effectually to preserve the institutions, and the
peace, and quiet of the country, upon the preservation of
which their interests so vitally depended. The proprie-
tors of land were interested in the preservation of that
tranquillity, but not so much as those who were engaged
in trade and commerce. Should a storm arise, whenever
it passed away real property would regain its value ; but
it was totally a different case with those whose wealth
consisted in the circulating capital of the country. Even
a temporary interruption of the tranquillity of that country
might extinguish all their hopes and destroy all their pre-
perty. Ile therefore regarded this petition, coming as
it
did from such an important class ofpersons, as affording a
strong argument in favour of the Reform which hid been
proposed by his Majesty's Government. The Noble Mar-
quis concluded by presenting the petition, which was or-
dered to be printed.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was anxious to
obtain some information from the Noble Earl at the head
of the Government, explanatory of his declaration on a
fOrnier occasion, so far as that declaration was contra-
vened by a more recent statement on the part of Ministers
elsewhere. It might be remembered that the Noble Earl
had pledged himself to stand or fall by the Reform Bill
now on the table of the other House of Parliament—
(Hear)—and not to abate a jot of its provisions.—(Hear.)
—Since that declaration, however, Ministers had reason
to depart from their measure in several important parti-
culars—of which it would he sufficient fur the present to
cite their having renounced their purpose to reduce the
numbers of the Commons, as they had intended.—(Hear.)
—The Noble Marquis was proceeding to read extracts
from Lord John Russell's speech, in order to show that
that Noble Lord had laid great stress on the necessity of
a reduction of the number of the Members of the other
House, when—
The girls of Maratzsauitv and BOSSLYN rose to
order. It was irregular, they said, and contrary to the
usages of Parliament, to make the alleged reports of what
might have occurred elsewhere, the subject of discussion
in that House.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not persist
in discussing the speech of the Noble mover of the Reform
Bill, though he could not see any impropriety or inconve-
nience in his doing so ; and should therefore confine him-
self to a simple question—namely, whether Ministers
meant to reduce the number of the House of Commons
from 658 to 596 as they had originally proposed, or not ?
How they meant, in case nut, to fill up the deficiency
which their disfranchising clause, schedules A and B,
would occasion ? Whether, in fact, they meant to retain
these disfranchisements like so many old bad notes, to be
issued at convenience ?—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Earl GREY concurred entirely with the Noble Earls
opposite, who had risen to order, as to the inconvenience
and irregularity of discussions founded en newspaper re-
ports, however accurate, and on the merits of a measure
which bad not yet come before them substantially. Ile,
however, would answer the Noble Marquis briefly,
but, lie trusted, satisfactorily. The Noble Marquis had
reminded their Lordships of his (Earl Grey's) pledge
delivered on a form r occasion, to the effect that
he would not consent to compromise the principle of
the Reform measure, but would stand or fall by it as
originally designed.—(Near. )—The Noble Marquis had
stated correctly his declaration.—(Hear.)—He had said
that he would stand or fall by the principle of the Bill
now in progress in the other House of Parliament; and
for the satisfaction of the Noble Marquis would then re-
peat his declaration, that he would not consent for himself
or his colleagues to abandon a single principle of that Bill,
but would stand or fall by it as it succeeded or otherwise.
—(Cheers.)—When he had, however, expressed his de-
termination to thus stand or fall by the Reform Bill, he
had also explicitly stated that it was the principle of that
Bill which he would not for a moment consent to com-
promise—for he was not presumptuous enough to imagine
that there might not be defects of detail susceptible of im-
provement.—(Hear, hear.)—The principle which Mini-
sters had in view in bringing forward the measure, was to
effect such improvements in the representation of the
people as the well-being of the country required,—in fact,
to adapt the representation to the institutions, to the wants,
property, and intelligence of the country; and he would
nut consent to any alteration in the provisions—not to say
the principle—of that measure, at all likely to interfere
with this its great object.—(Hear.) As a means to this
end, and not as an end in itself, Ministers proposed
to disfranchise certain boroughs incompatible with a
pure system of representation, and therefore they would
nit assent to any modification of the means which
might defeat the end they had in view.—(Hear.)—
With respect to what the Noble Marquis had observed
touching a reduction of the Members of the other House
of Parliament, he begged their Lordships to bear in mind,
that that reduction formed no essential portion of the
measure—that it was a question the merits of which were
not involved in the success or merits of the Reform Bill. It
was true that he and his colleagues did entertain an opi-
nion that such a reduction would be advantageous to the
public weal, that a fewer number would contribute to the
despatch of public business ; but that opinion formed, he
repeated, no essential element of their plan of Reform ;
and therefore not to insist on its enforcement could not in
fairness be construed into a compromise of the principle
by which he pledged himself to stand or fall.—(Hear.)
This opinion of the inconvenience of the present large
number of the House of Commons' members, was not a
new one of his. He had often asserted it, more particu-
larly when the Act:of Legislative Union with Ireland was
under the consideration of the other Ilon-e of Parliament.
On that occasion he moved, as an amendment to the Bill,
that 100 Members be taken off the representation of Eng-
land, to make room for the 100 new Members which Ire-
land was to send under its provisions, and the feelings of
the majority of the House, and the then Government,
were far from being hostile to his proposition, the
chief obstacle to the success of which arose from
the principle of compensation to certain borough pro-
prietors in Ireland being recognized by the Govern-
ment. His opinion, then, as to the advantages of
a reduction of the number of the Commons, he repeated
formed no essential part of the Reform Bill, and was to be
judged of on other grounds. Then as to sonic altera-
tions which it was proposed to make in the details of the
Bill, he wished it to be borne in mind, that they were so
far from being opposed to its principle, that they only went
to carry it into effect, and were only such improvements
as more correct information suggested. Since the plan and
objects of the Bill had been first announced to Parliament
Ministers had obtained more correct returns of the popu-
lation of the boroughs and towns which it would affect ;
and the result would be a modification, in two or three
instances, of the schedules A. and B. ; but, as he had be-
fore said, no departure from the principle of the measure.
—(llean) The Noble Marquis asked whether Ministers
meant to propose that the number of the Commons should
be k
ui
ane
tp t
to up tofi 65 l
luBp, ttli e present
hedefic n
deficiency
netiymlbyehr ; an i
cht idf
issof, how
disfranchising
clauses would occasion. His answer was, that Ministers
would not originate any proposition to make good this de-
ficiency.—(Hear.) Their individual opinions were, as he
had stated, in favour of a reduction of the number ; but
if the House of Commons should, contrary to this opi-
nion, agree that the full complement of 65S Members
was expedient, he and his colleagues did not feel that they
should therefore abandon the Bill of which this reduction
was not an essential feature.—(Hear, hear.) If the de-
ficiency should be thus filled up, he was not called upon
to say how it might be done so with advantage to time
public. All he would say was, that he would not consent
to it being Had up from Schedule A., that is, from the
boroughs proposed to be disfranchised altogether.--(Hear.)
Nor from schedule 8., that is, from those boroughs which
the Bill would deprive the power of returning snore than
at,ett)hihonfoelet
tcg.h,ii
colleagues
ueaeß(Let
dewl,e.teaer
rcanc.
ce)itt
d(otT,:ffiaithattte
alterations
Noble measure—the e a
one Member, but only in such a way as would conduce to
country
uEr
Earl
itsr—
repeated
asghtievadri netghoatfthreheellprarenos property
representa-
tion.—(Herr.) ati
s
determined
he
iend shouldittos standde tabiel orp
implied
nttooh
abandon-
anent nn
dctioi
nm principle
s
went of that principle.
The.. Ear! of CARNARVON had, since he last ad-
dresse6.their Lordships, minutely examined the Noble
it
,n;ltE,o,o2oartirtlyelbia'ds.eirnenßsnt his
fnot,frilatrfte;
uaii)lt:miel:ytrosetasfpee principlexel
principle;
rur siasnaevwcy.ai,
agp,tal
.ehT.
bltyeHi.
)o:net flt
Noblesramce lreey'Eei
ae:turx,h,litsaid
lead
and
t
y
ld
amity what it was, unless, indeed, he could call it the prin-
ciple of confiscation. The Noble Earl proceeded at 3oine
length to argue, that the power which the Bill would
place in the the Privy Council, as to the districts and
towns which should possess the right of returning
Members, was one highly unconstitutional, and he

lefied the Noble Earl to show that it was not so.

He should be prepared at a fitting occasion to show
that the proposed disfranchisement was not only
highly objectionable, but would not effect the object
the Noble Lord had in view. Neither would the proposi-
tion to extend the franchise to those rated at 101. a year,
guard them against the evils of corruption, of which it
was brought forward as the infallible remedy ; for they had
it in evidence—he alluded more particularly to the East
Retford case—that the class of persons most obnoxions to
bribery was that very class to which the Bill would extend
the right of franchise. The Noble Earl dwelt on this
point at some length. One of the principles of this Bill
rested on the basis of population. Now upon that point
he would only observe, that though Ministers had laid
down that principle in theory, they had by too means fol-
lowed it in practice : for if they had, they would have
found that the basis of population would have hurried them
un ftom one step to another, until every vestige of the
Constitution had been destroyed. He looked upon the
Bill as the most unprincipled measure that he had ever
heard of ; and by the term " unprincipled" be merely
meant destitute of any fixed principle. It was a measure
which had evidently been got up in a hurry by the present
Ministry. Their friends bad made foolish speeches to
their constituents out of doors ; and to toake good those
extravagant speeches, Ministers had brought in a measure
quite as extravagant. He was certain that this Bill was
not the production of his Noble Friend at the head of the
Government; it bore no mark of his master-hand,—it dis-
played no trace of his genius, of his talent, or of his
experience. lie must have assigned the task of
drawing up a new ConstitutiOn for the country
to a Committee of superannuated school• boys, just
as he had assigned the task of drawing ❑p his
budget to some young Statesmen of precocious experience.
The Noble Earl then entered into a discussion of the
budget, anti 'tonsured the Government for having brought
forward a plan of finance for the year which they were
obliged to abandon within a week of their first proposing
it. Ile trusted that they would have the good sense to
abandon in the same way their Reform Bill, which had
been brought forward with as little consideration as their
budget. That Bill confiscated vested rights by wholesale
—(llear, hear)—and sacrificed to mere theory privileges
which had long existed in all classes of the community. It
was now only the middle of April, and it was not until
the Ist of March that the secret of this Bill was commu-
nicated to the public. lie thought that they ought to
have more than six weeks to judge of the merits of a Bill
which would do away with the Constitution of Engl and so
far as related to the representation of the people i❑ the
House of Commons, after it had lasted for as many
centuries. They were proceeding not with calm delibe-
ration, but with breathless haste, to pass a Bill which
might place their Lordships in the greatest jeopardy. He
contended, that more time ought to be granted for delibe-
ration ; for the country had been taken by surprise,
and had been deluded into a sudden burst of appro-
bation for this measure by the claptraps which it con-
tained for all sorts of men. The fact was, that the more
men looked into its details the more they disliked it ;
and doubts as to its eligibility and its expediency were
rising up in the mind of every liberal and thinking man
in the country. He wished that his Noble Friend at the
head of the Government would consider, before he pro-
ceeded further with this Bill, who were the allies who
supported hint in it. His Noble Friend knew enotigh of
the motives of men to be aware of the causes which had
induced so many discordant parties to unite in approbation
of his Bill. All the violent agitations of the country, all
its covert treasons, were arrayed in support of it. They
had determined to give his Noble Friend a temporary re-
spite from the agitation of the ballot, and of the repeal of
the Union. But they had let out their reason for so doing
—they had avowed their belief that his Noble Friend
would unintentionally do more for them in a single session
by this Bill of his, than they could ever hope to do for
themselves in a long series of years by all their discussions.
Yes, the Irish agitators were all his Noble Friend's own !
and he wished his Noble Friend much joy of it. The Bir-
minghatn Union, toy, was all his own—that Union which
had told the highest authorities in the country that they
had funds and men to furnish two armies, each equal to
that which fought at Waterloo, if it should be necessary
to take up arms against the oligarchy. That was a phra-se
which of late had become fashionable : but, for his own
part, he must say, that he did not know who the persons
were who were branded under the title of the oligarchy.
Did the Reformers of Birmingham mean by the oligarchy
the gentry of the country ? Dial they mean that they
would burn a few of their houses ? Did they mean that
at their bidding the King himself was likely to be-
come the greatest rebel in all his dominions ?—( Hear,
hear, hear.) Then the twopenny trash all supported his
Noble Friend ; so that with this great confederate array
his Noble Friend had marched against the old institutions
of the country, supported by all tile blasphemy anal sedi-
tion which it contained.—(l- ar, hear, from the Opposi-
tion benches.) Did his Noble Friend think that because
the property of the country was silent, because those who
held it, being accustomed to place confidence in the Go-
vernment, by never having seen their flanks turned by the
Government on the one side, and by sedition on the other,
had not expressed themselves clamoroudy against this mea-
sure—did his Noble Friend think that they did not feel the
deepest alarm at its uncalled-for magnitude, and its pro-
bable risk ? They were inclined to give his Noble Friend
all credit for honest and pure intention ; but they believed
that on this occasion he had been led away by the counsels
of others. The magic wand of Comus, anal the enchanted
cup of Circe, were very potential ; and he really believed
that his Noble Friend must have been struck by the one,
or have been intoxicated by the other, before,he changed
his nature so far as to give his consent to the innovations
which this Bill was calculated to make upon the Con-
stitution. lie was sway to hear• his Noble Friend op-
posite—he meant the Noble Marquis—avowing, that
within the last three months he had seen grounds for
altering all his former opinions.—( Hear, hear, from the
Marquis of Lansdowne.) If his Noble Friend had al-
tered them for good and sufficient reasons, he had done
wisely; but if there was any thing that had given him more
pain than another in the course of these discussions, it was
the belief that his Noble Friend, on whose talents he had
beeu accustomed to rely for the salvation of the country,
had been induced to drink of the same Circeian cup with
his Noble Colleague at the head of the Government. What
eflbet had been produced on the public mind by the manner
in which his Noble Friend had brought forward this vaunted
Reform Bill ? The effect of it hail been this—that all dis-
creet, and prudent, and thinking men looked upon his
Noble Friend as the Neckar of the French revolution. They

believed him to he guiding the country, unknowingly, to
the brink of a precipice,—they believe I that when his eyes
should be opened, and he should look down upon the
dreadful airs which was yawning to ingulf it, he would
recoil from his own act, and, with a hand too powerless
to sive and too virtuous to inunolate hie country, would
leave it to some ruthless ruffian arm to hurl it down to
irretrievable destruction. That wav the opinion of

thousands;ll;vere deeply interested in the commercial
welfare and prosperity of the country. They were con-
vinced that confidence, which was the life and soul of com-
merce, would be destroyed by the passing of this Bill; that
capital would be driven from the country ; that the same
species of agitation which had driven manufactures from
France in the time of Louis XIV., would drive them from
our shores ; and that then, like virtue, when she fled the
earth, they would never re-appear in their ancient resting-
place. If 111inisters had taken time to provide for the safety
of the different interests of the country in this Bill, they
might have had the benefit of his vote, such as it was, in
its favour ; but they had cut that question short ; for in
their scramble to disfranchise totally all boroughs with
low than 2,000, and partially all boroughs with less than
4,000 inhabitants, ar.d in their determination to base the
Bill on a principle of population, which they did not
always carry into practice, they had lost sight of all those
great interests which it was their bounden duty to have
protected and preserved. He was himself a friend to mo-
derate Reform ; and he believed that, in the present state
of the country, they must concede to Reform something
more than in their own calm and deliberate judgment they
might think prudent. But to concede every thing to Re-
form, as was proposed in this Bill—to advance blindly,
perhaps, to salvation, but more probably to inevitable des-
truction—was that which no sensible man could ever
think of doing. He therefore called upon the House and
upon the country to pause before they gave their consent
to a measure which might plunge the country into a dan-
gerous abyss, from which no human councils could ever
withdraw it. The Noble Earl, after several other obser-
vations of a similar tendency, concluded by observing that
their Lordships might not perhaps pay much attention to
his boding voice, hut that would not prevent him from
raising it, whenever any measure was proposed to them
which he thought likely to inflict injury on the laws and
constitution of his country.
The Bishop of BRISTOL (we believe) next addressed
the House, but iu a tune which was very indistinctly
iieard. He stated that though he was not unfriendly to
rational ReSrm, he could not give his consent to the mea-
sure which was at present before the other House of Par-
liament. Though the petitions in behalf of that 'measure
were very numerous, he knew enough of the modes by
which such petitions were got up, to induce him to believe
that they did not express the sentiments of the majority of
the-people. If the Bill had contained any provisions cal-
culated to check that corruption and bribery at elections

which all good men deplored, it it had gone no fatther
than shortening the duration of the poll and limiting the
expences of election, he might have been inclined to sup-
port it ; but, extensive as it now was, he could not look
upon it as any thing else than a dangerous innovation
upon the Constitution of the country. He objected to the
Bill for another reason—it was a dangerous infringement
on the rights of property ; and if Parliament once com-
menced a course of spoliation on one species of property,
there was no tolling what species of property would long
continue safe. He was of opinion, that even the boasted
omnipotence of Parliament was not competent to deprive
individuals, without their consent, of a species of pro-
perty which they had long enjoyed. He thought
that individuals should not be called on to forfeit
property to which they had an undoubted right.
He likewise contended, that this 13i11 was indefensibk
inasmuch as it deprived the different corporations of the
country of privileges which had long been vested in them.
If Birmingham and Manchester were desirous of being
represented in Parlisment, let them, with the large funds
which were at their disposal, compensate the decayed
boroughs which they deprived of the elective franchise.
Though no man was more willing than he was to correct
any real abuses, he could not help deprecating thismea•
sure, which he believed to be pregnant with mischief of
every description to all thedifferentinterests of the country.
Ile hoped that, if the Bill should come before their Lord-
ships, the Noble Earl at the head of the Gavernment
would modify it as much as possible. In conclusion, he
stated that he was fully aware of the responsibility which
he incurred by this declaration of his opinion, and that he
was anxious to have it understood that, in making it, he
was merely expressing his own individual opinions, and
not those of the profession to which he belonged.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I assure
you, most unaffectedly, that I rise with great reluctance to
prolong this unusual, and I believe I must say irregular,
and lam sure that we all feel, greatly inconvenient die-
cussion into which my Noble Friend has so unexpectedly
dragged the House.—(Cries of " No, no.") Then if I
must not say dragged your Lordships, I will borrow one
of my Noble Friend's metaphors, which I will endeavour
to keep unmixed,—though in the myriad of metaphors
which he employed he always mixed them in the most
inexplicable confusion,—l will say, that if your Lordships
were not dragged, you were seduced and beguiled into this
discussion by my Noble Friend most needlessly and
unexpectedly ; for my Noble Friend, in presenting this
petition, confined himself most closely to that which,
according to the strictest rules of your Lordships' House,
is most in order ; he did not enter into the whole
merits of the whole question, but confined himself to a
comment on the quarter from which the prayer of the pe-
tition proceeded, on the importance of the prayer itself,
and on the manner and on the occasion on which the peti-
tioners had congregated together. These were the topics,
and these were the only topics, on which my Noble Friend
entered ; but my Noble Friend near me, who cautiously
abstained from joining- in the debate when the question was
not raised irregularly, or unusually, or incidentally upon
a petition, but when it was brought forward expressly, and
avowedly for the purpose of forcing a debate on the merits
of the Reform Bill,—my Noble Friend, who was silent
when we all were prepared for debate, comes down when
a petition is to be presented, and we all' ate unprepared,
and drags us,—no I will not say drag, for that implies
force, but seduces us, for that implies consent—into a
discussion, to which he brings a speech of great rhetoric,
exuberant fancy, multitudinous metaphor, and long pre-
meditation, and filled with great, if not always successful,
attempts to instruct and amuse us ; but a speech, of which
whatever may be its other rare and exalted merit, con-
ciseness is not that merit which I would venture to predi-
cate as its distinguishing characteristic. With all deference
to my Noble Friend, I must say that he took us
all a little by surprise. My Noble Friend commenced
his oration by saying that be had only a word or two to
say regarding this petition. Then I thought to myself, "Oh,
there is nothing here but what is right and regular." But
then he said that which, from the long experience I have
had of this and the other House of Parliament, gave
me strange misgivings—he said, and it is always an
ominous introduction to a professedly short statement—
" far be it from me upon this occasion to enter into the
merits of the general question." As soon as my Noble
Friend had uttered those words, my experience led me to
expect a long, elaborate, premeditated di-quisition on a'l
the merits of the Reform Bill, and on every other topic
which by any artifice or rhetoric my Noble Friend could
connect with it, not excepting that which was the real
cause of his speech,—a general, a virulent, and not a very
candid or even amicable attack on the character and per-
sons of those who at this moment constitute the Cabinet.

I should only be running the risk of verifying my own re-
mark were I to begin the defence of my Noble Colleagu, s
and myself by abjuring any intention to enter into it at
any great length. I have reason to know that my Noble
Friend came down here fortified by good sleep and an ex-
cellent dinner,—l have not had the same benefit of either
bed or board. I have undergone the fatigues of a long
day without refreshment, and therefore your Lordships
have some plec:ge that I shall not detain you longer than is
absolutely necessary. My Noble Friend and the R ght
Rev. Prelate who followed him,—and here I will observe
that I could wish that my Noble Friend, had imitated the
Right lit Prelate, whose speech was distinguished by
straightforwardness of purpose and undeviating liberality
and candour,—my Noble Friend and the Right Rev. Pre-
late both state that they are reformers, and that they will not
stand up for acknowledged abuses. " Only prove to us," says
the Right Itay. Prelate, echoing the words of my Nolde
Friend, "only prove to us that these things are abuses, and we
will be among the first to lop them off." Is it, then, in the
opinion of my Noble Friend, who advertises himself as a
reformer in one of the most anti-reform speeches that I
ever heard in the whole course of my life, and whose ad-
..

. _
vertisement contains as correct a❑ account of his reform-
ing propensities as the advertisements in the daily
journals do of the warts advertised by them for sale,—is it
in the eye of such a reformer as my Noble Ft iend no abuse
that the most populous, the most opulent, the most enter-
prising, and most intelligent cities in this empire should
be wholly unrepresented, whilst the mouldering mounds of
Old Sarum, awl the barren walls of :11ilhurst each send
two members to Parliament ?" " Oh, but then," says he,
" if your plan had been confined to that, Birmingham and
Manchester might have been permitted to return members

to the House of Commons." Be it no. But then, is it
no abase,—mind, I am addressing myself all this time to

, .
a sincere thorough-going reformer, for such my Noble
Feiend professes himself to be,—is it no abuse, I ask, in
the eyes of my Noble Friend that the power of giving
laws to a great empire, with millions of subjects at home
and tens of millions of subjects abroad,—the power of
giving laws to this great and intelligent country, and of
all but giving laws, as my Noble Friend sail, through this
country to all the world besides,—is it no abuse, I say,
that the power of making such laws should be vested as
property in private individuals ? Is it no abuse in his eyes
that the power should be given, not by the choice of the
people, but according to the caprice, inclination, or good-
will of a Peer, or other powerful patron? Is it no
abuse in his eyes that this pstaver should be set up
to auction in our public marts ;—that it should be
sold as notoriously as the beasts in Smithfield ;
that it . should be let for a term of years, like
a stall or is stable ;—and that i t should be so
openly treated as an article of traffic, that when a ques-
tion arose, as I stated the other night regarding the
prompt, the payment of discount was defrayed, not in
money, bat in returning a Member—l speak from my own
knowledge—to the Parliament now assembled ?" The
Noble. Lord then proceeded to ask—had, not the buying
and selling of seats been proved to be as common as that of
cattle in the market? And was it in the face of acknow-
ledged abuses such as those—abuses which, in the words
of a former Speaker of the House of Commons, would
have caused our ancestors to startle—that the friends of
rational Reform, who would lop off those abuses, were to
be denominated innovators, and to be accused of tearing
up the Constitution by the roots? But there was an out-
cry made in favour of corporations and bodies which had
come by usurpation to have a monopoly of the represen-
tation. In his mind it was no small recommendation of
the measure to say that such abuses and anomalies would
in future he got rid of by means of it. Nothing could be
more degrading to him who sold, and to him who pur-
chased, than the existing traffic in votes at elections ; its
effect was more prejudicial to the morals of the people, and
worse for the country generally-, than the evil of nomina-
tion boroughs. This barter and sale of men's voices and
consciences was debasing to him who came into Parlia-
ment by means of it, and destructive of the character of
those by whom he was returned ; and no where was the 'I
base traffic more remarkable than in towns where freemen
possessed a right of vo,ing, particularly non-resident
freemen. It was proposed by the Bill, as the hest
mode of lopping off abuse., to take the right of
election out of hands by which it had been inva-
riably abused, and to place it in the property of the
country. At the same time let the Noble Loi d bear in
mind that that the Bill did not disfranchise existing freemen.
He had himself witnessed a contested election in a great
rotten borough—for he would so denominate Liverpool,
and place it at the head of all the rest—and although for
many months afterwards the candidates 11,1 d no notion of
any corrupt or undue practices, the cost of the election
1 amounted to upwards of 40,0001. He had been told that
three times 40,0001, would not be sufficient to pay the

expences of the last election that had disgraced the town
of Liverpool—be hoped the last in every sense of the
word ; for if this Bill were torn to shivers, another and
a local Bill would be necessary to deprive parties of a
franchise which they bad abused.—(Hear.)—The Noble
Lord complained of the measure having been brought for-
ward without due deliberation, although three months
had been suffered to elapse before it was introduced. But
if Ministers had delayed the Bill till another session, he
rather suspected there would have been found some friend to
Reform like the Noble Lord to complain of the delay.
What had been said of the fair sex appeared to be applied
in the present instance :
We men have many faults : poor women have but two,
" There's nothing right they say—there's nothing right they do."
So the Noble Lord thought with respect to his Majesty's
Ministers—like the ladies they had only two faults in his
opinion—they said and did nothing right.—(A laugh.)—
But this opinion of the Noble Lord was of recent birth :
up to a late period he had expressed no distrust or disap-
probation of Ministers. Till the introduction of the Re-
form Bill, the Noble Lard had not expresed any very
violent dislike of the existing Government. That Bill
.'ppeared to be one of fassination, as regarded the Noble
Lord, for it had beguiled bins of his better feeling, and
deprived him of his better sense. As an instance of
which latter effect, take the Noble Lord's famous sentence
beginning with Comus, ending with Circe, and contain-
ing every thing dreadful and seductive but Scylla and
Cintrybdi,. lie couNl not undertake to follow the
Noble Lord through all the inconsistencies of his
speech. The Noble Lord declared lie would have sup-
ported the measure if he did not believe it to be
pregnant with mischief to the commercial, monied, and
toanufActnring interests of the country. Would not the
Noble Lord allow the bankers and monied men of Lon-
don. and the manufacturers of Manchester, Leeds, and
Sheffield, to know something of those interests ? Was

it to go for nothing that in all those places they called
loudly for the Bill? And were Ministers to be treeed
with contempt and ridicule because they were not able to
see dangers to commerce and manufacture, which the
leading interests of those and another place could not dis-
cover? what he had r,sen tier en this occasion was, with
a view to show that the Nohle Lord's arguments (if he
might so call them) had made no impression upon the
measure, and to vindicate himself from the charge of in-
consistency. It appeared that in a periodical work with
which the Noble Lord seemed more familiar than he, some-
body had argued in favour of what was called a mixed or
piebald system of representation, and the Noble Lord inti-
mat d his npinio❑ that some member of the present Go-
vernment was the author of that paper. All he could say
was, that so far from having written the article in ques-
tion, he had never even read it. It was therefore a gross
mistake in the Noble Lord to impute the argument to him.
(Earl Carnarvon here intimated that he did not mean to
do so.) Well, passing that topic, it was a gross misrepre-
sent rtion of the principle of the measure to say of it, as
the Noble Lord did, that it depended wholly on population
—putting property altogether out of sight ; he denied
that this was the case. The Noble Lord said, " property
was the basis of the Constitution, and why not found the
Bill upon property ?" But if property was the basis of
the Consitution what became of the Noble Lord's darling
corporations? There was no right of property there: a
man might be a beggar, and yet if he belonged to a cor-
poration he could transmit to the issue of his loins, born
in wedlock, the right of choosing representatives. But the
Bill abolished this right after the present possessors, be-
cause it was a right that existed separately from property.
Thus it appeared that, contrary to the statement of
the Noble Lord, property was to be the basis of the elec.
tiva franchise. Property was the basis throughout, and
yet this was what the Noble Lord complained of—first, as
a uniform system that excluded property, and, in the next
breath, as a suirstitution for the old plan, which gave the
right of voting in many instances without reference to
property. It was no unwise exclamation, " Save me
from my friends :" and, for his own part, he had rather
encounter the open, manly, unvirulent opposition of the
Nubia Duke (Wellington) than the opposition of the
Comas-Circe friends of Reform. With respect to the Bill
which he had intended to bring forward on the subject of
Reform (to which the Noble Lord had adverted), it went
to a greater extent than the present with respect to the
extension of the franchise to inhabitant householders, al-
though it did not go so far with respect to the rotten
boroughs. However, the Noble Lord said, he would have
been ready to support it. He had concurred in the pre..
sent measure, which embraced a larger view than that
which he had intended to introduce, because, being in
office, and having the support of Government, he thought
it likely to be carried ; and he hod formerly made up his
mind to a narrower measure, because he then believed that
the utmost he could get was what he intended to have
proposed. If there was one individual more reluctant than
another to propose measures of wild innovation, of rash
experiment, touching the venerable institutions of the
country, which had flourished and grown up with the
growth of our prosperity, nursing it, and protected by it
in turn—if there was one person more incapable of com-
promising our national interests than another, it was the
individual who then addressed their Lordships. But he had
not so read the history of the British Constitution as to con-
found the rust with the pure metal—as to confound the use
with theabuse—as to cling to the imperfection,and fancy that
in doing so ire was supporting the stability of the structure.

Therefore it was, that he had taken the present course. He
had not suffered party zeal so to bewilder his imagination
in relation to this general question as to cause him to fancy
that when he had torn off what clogged the just working
of the Constitution, and got rid of the abuse which forced
Mr. Pitt to •ay that it was impossible so long as it lasted

to have an honest Minister—or if honest, one who could
act consistently with his principles—he could not be led
to imagine that when he had torn away the evil and left
the Constitution to work with its natural vigour, he was
playing the part not of a surgeon but of a parricide. To
imagine this required a confusion of ideas—a stupid per-'
version of facts to which he was not ambitious to lay claim. "
He said nothing of the people out of doors: but he begged
the Noble Lord to reflect on what he had said in the course
of hie speech, when he inquired " who were the Noble
Earl's allies?" Did the Noble Lord mean to judge of the
principle of the measure by this rule of perverted adage
and broken charity ? By this nonsense rather than sense
did he wish to pass a condemnation upon the Bill? He
had yet to learn that a measure recommended by its prin-
ciple—a measure which went to restore not destroy—to
improve not impair—was to be at once abandoned, because
it happened to enjoy this additional quality—recommenda- :
tion he did not call it—that it had been honestly and sin-
cerely greeted with the approbation of a large body of our
fellow-subjects. Se much as to the sentiments of the people
generally. But if it was said that he was now talking, not
of the agitators, but of the people at large, then he said
he was also yet to learn, that a meesure good in principle, -
and having the additional aceideut of being univer-
sally a favourite of the people of England, was to be con-
demned, because it had also the quality of having pecified
even that portion of our fellow-subjects, of whom the
Noble Lord spoke as if he were disposed to think that it
was impossible for any exertion of human power to satisfy
them. The measure had worked most favourably upon .
public feeling in England ; he hoped it had also produced
good effects in many parts of Ireland. Siace it had been
made known then, a great change had been effected in the
anti-union feeling, which was no longer so prevalent in
that country. Still he did net call upon the Legislature
to ad ,pt:the measure merely because it happened to be con-
sistent with the popular voice, but he was persuaded that
by yielding to the prejudices of the Noble Lord they would
bring the security of the country, the King's peace, and
the whole frame of society, from Cornwall to Sutherland—•
and not only England but Ireland—into a state ofjeopardy,
which he prayed heaven that the longest liver might not see. .
He did not wish to use the language of threats, but he re-.
collected that the great Chatham, when addressing their.
more severe ancestors within those walls, had suffered the
lightning of his eloquence to smite the enemies of Reform;
menacing them with the dangers that must attend an at-
tempt to withhold the people's rights :
_and he remem-
bered that that was deemed no insult to those who heard,
but an honour to the boldness of him who uttered the de-
nunciation. For his own part, all that he ventured in
this latter day of eloquence and power, and speaking in his
far hunehlt r character, to call upou their Lordships to be-
lieve was this,—that the thundersof heaven were sometimes
heard to roll in the voice of a united people. •
Lord WYNFORD was happy to find that the Noble
and Learned Lord was not one of the projectors of what
he considered one of the most scandalous parts of the Bill,
—he alluded to die sweeping measure of borough disfran-
chisement. What he (Lord Wynforti) asked was, that
such a measure of sweeping confiscation might not be
adopted without any offence proved. Let them first con-
vict of crime, and then punish. The confiscation did not
stop with the boroughs ; it affected the rights of freemen,
freelrehlers, and burgage-tenanta. Lct their Lordships
take c.ree lest they should employ
deprweaponsivei which might
might
be turned against themselves to-morrow. Freemen
chime" the!r freedom by birth by as complete a riglat as
theierxting
rdehfirpese:mlaiednelwaietidetnoutthteoirbetitles. Admitting that
the
privi-
leges, how could their Lordships answer for taking away
their rights from the children of -freemen ? Let it be re-
collected also, that the rights of freeholders in towns and
burgage tenants were deecendible by birth. The Noble,
I and Learned Lord declared that property was the basis of

of the
The
Visc
I)wed,
be reqL
Adj,

Mr.
count
Lon

agains'
eashirc
duced
againsl

Mr.
of Bayi
of Itei
tion to
the Je‘
it anti
Lon
In Lai

contai
Were t
land,
return
Aft,
Dlr. 1

ntain-
la and
v the
)f his

e sup-
to be
1, and
;it the
Lon-
3, and

Was
called
rea'e,l
able to
h the
of dis-

with
(if he
In the
of in-
k with
some-
xed or
inti-
►t Go-

11,1 say
ques-
t gross
o him.
can to
irepre-
it, as

ulation
denied
.operty
Lnd the
)axis of
ere : a

its prin-
troy—to
because
iimendn-

and sin-
y of our
le people
king, not
he said
univer-
be eon-
; Ficified
horn the
k that it
to satisfy
Oly upon
produced
had been

ed in the
valent in
be eon-
vied that
ey would
'ace, and
terland—
jeopardy,
It not see.
ut he re-,.
ling their,
rered the'
Reform ;
d an at-
! remem-

ho heard,
ed the tie-
n tured in
,ing in his
ps to be-
ometirnes

the Noble
s of what
the Bill,
h disfran-
was, that
it not be
first con-
in did not
freemen,
Lordships
ch might
Freemen
a rigid as
'tang that
the privi-
mg away
it be re-
;own; and
the Noble
ie basis of

representation according to the Bill, and that it gave to
freeholders votes. They hail votes before in counties, and
now they were to be mixed up and neutralized with pau-
pers, In towns, 101. householders would far outnumber
tnuse of a higher grade ; and in point of fact paupers
would be the persons to return members of Parliament.
The House of Commons would be elected by one class in
the State. ire calculated that of a certain number of
Inernhers, 136 would be returned by the landed in-
terest, and 293 by paupers. It had been said, that
'ne effect of this Bill would be to prevent universal
suffrage; he considered universal suffrage and uni-
Vertal plunder as one and the same thing ; and yet he
did not know that he should not prefer universal suffrage
t° a Bill like the present. There were three principles of
r,presentation—population, property, and talent ; the two
first were out of the question in this measure, which he ad-
mitted would bring talent of a certain sort into the repre-
sentation ; but what wont lit be? Demagogue talent—
the talent of persons, who having nothing to low in the
shape of principle or property, would render themselves
ready instruments to destroy and pull down the long-esta-
blished institutions of the country.

Lord FARNHAM was apprehensive that the measure
Would be far from effecting the pacification of Ireland, as
the Noble and Learned Lord appeared to imagine ; he was
equally sceptical on the subject of its efficacy to put an end
to the anti-Union feeling, which, if at present less appa-
rent than formerly, had only been repressed for the mo-
uient at the instance of the demagogues.
The LORI) CHANCELLOR did not said that the mea-
sure had pacified, or would pacify Ireland ; be had merely
stated that he believed, in parts of Ireland, it had produced
a good effect. He had the authority of a private letter for
saying, that " the Reform measure had completely put an
end to the anti-Union agitation." But he was much
afraid that Government would not be able to meet the
evil in some parts of Ireland without coercive measures.
Viscount MELBOURNE postponed the second reading
°f the Sub-letting Act Repeal Bill.
The Earl of WICKLOW objected to the postponew4nr.

Viscount MELBOURNE wished some time to be al-
-I)Wed, to enable him to see whether any alterations would
be required in the Bill previous to going into C,immitiee.
Adjourned at Half-past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF C031.1110.2V5, ArnlL 1-1.

Mr, Fennell, from the Admiralty, brought up an ac
count of the number of seamen in the Royal Hospitals.
Lord STANLEY presented petitions from Warrington
against negro slavery ; from the cotton-spinners of Lan-
cashire, praying that their hours of labour might he re-
'laced ; and from the Magistrates of Bolton-le-Moor,
against the Beer Bill.
EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS.
Mr, R. GRANT said he would take that opportunity
of saying, that in consequence of the all-absorbing question
of Reform not being yet settled, it was not his inten-
tion to bring forward his motion for the emancipation of
the Jews, which stood for this evening ; but he postponed
it until the sth of May.
Lord STANLEY presented several petitions from places
is Lancashire in favour of Reform.
Mr. WYNNE presented a similar petition from Sligo.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY presented a petition from
the Presbytery of Scotland, praying that the elective
franchise might be extended to them. The Right Hon.
Baronet thought that if the measure of Reform was to be
carried, more Members ought to be given to Scotland. It
Was quite unfair that large counties in Scotland were only
to have a fourth share in returning a Member while
Small counties in England had two, and in some cases
even four. There were towns also in Scotland which
contained from 20,000 to 30,000 inhabitants that
Were to remain totally unrepresented, whilst towns in Eng-
land, some containing only 4,005 inhabitants, were to
return two Members —( Hear, hear.)
After some observations from Mr. ALEXANDER HOPE,
Mr. HART DAVIS,
Mr. ROBERT GRANT stated that the representation
of the Scotch Church was a subject yet open to considera-
tion. He might also add, that the question of giving re-
presentatives to the Scotch Universities had been submitted
to the Government, though he was not authorised to state
the result of that deliberation.
A new Member took the oaths and his seat.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from a suburb of
Manchester, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform.
The petitioners at the same time declared that they were
desirous of having universal suffrage and annual Parlia-
ments. The Hon. Member also presented a petition from
New Lanark, complaining of distress caused by taxation,
praying for a free trade of corn, and to be released from
serving in the militia until their grievances were redressed,
and among them they included not being represented in
Parliament. The Hon. Member expressed his regret that
neither the Hon. Member for Waterford, nor the Hon.
Membl: for Kircudbright, was present, as they both as-
sailed him last night. What with Hibernia on the one
hand, and Caledonia on the other, he had like to have been
overwhelmed. He wished p trticolarly that the llon.
Member for Kircudbright had been present ; for then lie
night have been convinced by that petition that the feeling
to favour of Reform was so not universal as he had repre-
sented it. As those Hon. Members were not present, he
would not say more; but that he had quite enough to de-
fend himself when he was attacked both by Sawney and
Blarney.—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL, who came into the House as Mr.
Hunt was pronouncing the last sentence, said, as he had
heard the Hon. Member making an attack on him as
Paddy, though he hardly knew why, he must reply. Ile
was not under much surprise at the attack, for he was fre-
quently attacked by the Tories, and the Hon. Member for
Preston bad become a Tory. He had found out, like the
Tories, that the Bill was not good, and he did what he
Could to oppose it. The Bill was not all he wanted; and
though it was a real and substantial Reform, the Hon.
Member for Preston, like the dog in the fable, was for
dropping the bone to catch at a shadow. He would find,
however, that if he let go the bone, he would lose that,
and would not get the shadow of Reform which he was
striving after. The Hon. Member for Preston had charged
him with trafficking for a Judgeship ; he had never men-
tioned the Bench in that House but to declare that the Mi-
nisters would do what was very wrong if they placed him
on the Bench. He had been too much of a partisan to be
proper person to be placed there, for, whatever might be
his conviction that he could do justice impartially, that
would not be the conviction of others. The Hon. Mem-
ber bad also charged him with having made a compromise;
now he never had compromised anything, but he had for-
gotten his own feelings, and declared himself ready- to
support the Ministers the instant be found that they were
right. As the Hon. Member had made these charges
against him, he would also charge the Hon. Member with
being a mock reformer. For himself he saw that it
Was not possible, in the present circumstances of the
country, to olaain all the reformers might desire; and,
therefore, he had been willing to take those great benefits
which this Bill conferred, and give the rest to the wind.
The ballot certainly formed a part of his theory of Re-
form; but when he saw a measure introduced full of prac-
tical relief--a measure calculated to effect a great public
good—he thought it right to sacrifice his theoretical views
and give up the shadow to take the substance. As for
the Hou. Member for Preston, he courted his hostility, for

he could no longer recognise him as a brother reformer.
Ile was quite ready to make a present of him to the
Tories, and a lumping pennyworth they would have of
hint.—(A laugh.)—He did not accuse the Hon. Member
°f having wilfully misrepres2nted hint, but he certainly
had mistaken both his words and his conduct, and so be
had probably mistaken the opinions and wishes of the
People of England.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not say that
the Hon. Member had sold himself to the Tories, for he
did not think that they would buy the lion. Member, but
be seethed to have courted the offer of purchase by giving
earnest of what he was worth.—(A laugh.)—He saw in
the proposed measure a means of getting a great practical
good, and he did not scout it like the Hon. Member.

Mr JOHN CAIIIPI3ELL said he concurred with the
sentiments that had been expressed by the Hon. Member
for Rircudbright on a former evening, and conceived that
the conduct of the Hoe. Member for Preston was at least
suspicious. He had no doubt that the Hon. Member had
bad those conversations with the people he had described
to the House ; but at the same time he had also no doubt
tiat the answers which the Han. Member said he had re-
ce►ved, were brought about by what the lawyers called
leading questions.
Mr. Alderman WAITH.MAN said that no measure had
ever been brought forward which had given such univer-
'al satisfaction as the measure brought in by his Majesty's
Ministers. He had had an extensive communication on
the subject, and could affirm this, in consequence of infot•-
mation gathered from a wide surface.
Sir H. HARDINGE said he did not believe that the
measure of Parliamentary Reform was at all popular in the
country, The Hon. Member for Waterford charged
the Hon. Member for Preston with having gone over to
the Tories. Now, he thought that charge might be re-
torted on the Hon. Member for Waterford, for he had
decidedly gone
.over to the Whigs.—(Hear.) He did not
W►sh then to enter into the question of Reform ; but he
must say that, in his opinion, the property of the country
WAS strongly
,opposed to it.
Mr. KENNEDY was confident the feeling of the
country was strongly in favour of Reform.
Mr. HUNT trusted, after the attacks which had been

made on him, that the HOLM would iisten to him for a
short time. He had always admitted that the people had
been fervid, more fervid than he had ever seen them in
favour of the Bill. Ile had before mentioned that at a
late meeting of the Livery, among whom fur many years
Reform could not be mentioned, he was very favourably
heard as long as he spoke for the Bill ; but the Livery
would not hear him when he spoke against it. He had
then stated, that if it were passed, it would be sure to en-
tail on them a perpetual Corn Bill. There was now,
however, a re-action, as he had stated before, and he bad
received trait very day two deputations from parties in
the city of London ; he bad received one the day before
from Spitalfields, requesting him to take the chair at a
public meeting to consider the Reform Bill, but he had
found it necessary to decline the invitation. He had
enough to do there to take care of himself, placed as he
was between Caledonia and Hibernia. He must deny,
however, that he had made any attack on the Hot. 'Wern-
her for Kircudbright. He had done no such thing, and
if he had, he should have been ready to stand by its con-
sequences. He was ready to face any man either in that
[louse or elsewhere. He had only wished tlat the Hen.
Member for Kirkcudbright had been present when he
brought the petition under the notice of the House, be-
cause that would have shown him that the people of Scot-
land were not, as he supposed, unanimous in favour of the
Ministerial Bill. He would then turn round to the Hon.
Member fer Waterford, who, coming into the House
just as he was done speaking, seemed to consider seine of
his (Mr. Hunt's) observations as an attack upon him.—
le bad not made any attaek—he had said nothing about
Paddy. He had alluded to the attack which the lion.
Member had yesterday made upon Lite, when Hibernia
had overwhelmed him with tears. He had, at the same
time, been attacked by Caledonia with great heat and fire,
and he owned that between Sawney and` Blarney be was
entirely overwhelmed. He did not think, when he saw
tears on one side and fire on the other, that he had used
any inapplicable terms, but very applicable ones. What
attack had he made? It was the lion. Member for Wa-
terford who had attacked him. He would not appeal to that
Hon. Member, he would appeal to the whole House--to
the consideration of every Member—if he had attacked
the Hon. Member. He had not charged the Hon. and
Leaf ned Member with any thine ; be had only iminuated,
when the lion. and Learned Member was insinuating
against the Hon. and Learned Member for 'Weymouth
that he was trafficking for seats in Parliament—that he
(Mr. O'Connell) was the last man who should accuse an-
other of trafficking, for he himself had trafficked for the
law. Before he had only insinuated, then he would
boldly tell him, in the face of the House and the country,
that before the close of the last Session of Parliament he
(Mr. O'Connell) had trafficked wit's the Marquis of
Anglesea for that seat on the Bench which was now
occupied by Mr. Doherty. There would have been no
agitation in Ireland if Mr. Doherty had net got the situa-
tion, instead of the Hon. and Learned Member. Mr.
Bennett was the go-between in the negociation. The
Hon. and Learned Member said, that he (Mr. Hunt) had
sold himself to the Tories—let him prove that --(A laugh.)
Whatever the Hon. and Learned Member for Waterford
'night say about his (Mr. Hunt) being no reformer, and
his (Mr. O'Connell) being a real reformer, he knew that
he had shown himself a reformer. lie appealed to the
House—he would not appeal to the Hon. and Learned
Member. Yes, he would appeal to the lion. Member
whether he hid a double way of shooting ? He would
appeal to the country whether he had expressed one senti-
ment to-day and another to-morrow? He had always
been the advocate of universal suffrage and vote by ballot.
The Hon. Member state 1 at Clare that he was in favour
of vote by ballot and universal suffrage. It was the Hon.
and Learned Member, therefore, that was the shifter and
not be. The Hon. and Learned Member had declared at
the election for Clare, that he was the advocate of uni-
versal suffrage and vote by ballot ; and it was therefore the
Hon. Member that had shifted his ground. The Hon.
and Learned Measlier agreed with the Ministers—so did
he to a certain extent—but he was not satisfied that
their measure was an unmixed good, and, therefore,
he could not say so. He could not change his sun -
timents because the Hon. Member for Water-
ford did. There was a discussion last night on the
discontent which existed in Clare. Did that Hon.
and Learned Member not think that a great part of the
discontent in Clare arose from his having broken his pro-
mises? He had promised them that when he was in Par-
liament he would move for a repeal of the Act for dis-
franchising the forty-shilling freeholders. The Hon.
Member had not done any such thing. For his own part
he had never consented to disfranchise any man. He
must unequivocally say that the people of England, who
were running wild in favour of the Reform Bill, had re.
covered their senses, and that the seven millions of adults
who were not to receive any share of the franchise by this
Bill, were no further in favour of it than, as he had before
stated, it would make an inroad into thatsystem which was
disgraceful to the whole country. With regard to the
measure itself, though what he might say if it would be
said to be a proof that he had joined the Tories, he must
observe that alterations in it had been announced.
The Noble Lord who announced them gave one version
of those alteration, the Hon. Secretary for Ireland had
given another, and the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, had given a third which was different from
the two others. Probably all these gentlemen meant
the same, but front want of consulting with each
other, they did not agree in their stories. He begged to
ask then, what they didmean ? A petition had been pre-
sented from Warwick for the Bill—the whole Bill, and
nothing but the Bill. Nothing of that was to be granted
—nothing that he contended for, and he, therefore, was
not content with the measure. He had attended a meet-
ing in Somersetshire a fortnight ago, and at the close of
that meeting the people had come to an unanimous resolu-
tion in favour of vote by ballot. The Members for Somer-
setshire were not then attending their duty in the Nouse,
as they had not attended their duty at the meeting, and
he would.not, therefore, present the petition. As to his
constituents, he was not afraid to meet them—he was not
afraid of the threat held out in the Times of this morning,
of a dissolution, he did not object to a dissolution, and
was not afraid of his seat. If his constituents objected to
his conduct, let them only say so, and be would accept
the Chiltern Hundreds. What did he gain by sitting there
till two o'clock in the morning, or what could he gain ?
Neither the Tories nor the Whigs had any thing to give
him which he would accept of. If ever he should accept
anything, let the House and the country form such an opi-
nion of him as he had of the Hon. Member for Waterford.
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSON, in reference to the
statement on the foriner evening, explained, that he had
said, he believed, the whole population of Scotland were in
favour of the principle of the Bill, but they did not agree
to all the details and provisions of the Bill. Two or three
counties with which be was connected had declared in fa-
vour of the principle of Reform, but they did not like the
sweeping nature of the Bill. One county, in which the
people had declared in favour of the Bill, objected to re-
ducing the rate for voting so low as was intended ; but that
was not the case with the majority of his constituents, and
he believed the majority of the people of Scotland. There
was one occasion on which the Hon. Member for Preston
must have been, he believed, much misreported. He had
been made to say at a meeting of the people in Manchester
that " he would let them into a secret which they could
not learn from the newspapers, because there was a con-
spiracy between the Ministers and the Reporters to carry
the Bill. The Ministers had openly avowed in the House
that they had called in one million of the middle classes to
take a share in e.'.e representation, in order to keep down
the lower classes.—(Hear, hear, (torn Mr. Hunt.) That
they' meant to raise the volunteers again.—(hear, hear,
from Mr. Hunt)—that they might keep their hands in
the pockets of the people, and that time people might not
escape their present work."—(hear, bear, from Mr.
Hunt.) He was sorry to suppose that the Hon. Member
meant to justify such language. Did he mean to say
that Ministers had avowed that they introduced a million
of voters to keep down and crush the lower classes ? He
denied that such language had ever been used in that House
by the Ministers. If the Hon. Member avowed such
language, he must justify it. He supposed that it was not
a fair report, and he mentioned it, that the Hon. Member
might contradict it. He could not conceive anything
more mischievous, anything, more likely to hold up that
House to the contempt and even to the indignation of the
people. The Hun. Member had stated, that the Ministers
had done nothing to reduce the price of bread or diminish
the hours of labour. Could it be expected of any Reform
Bill that it should reduce the price of bread or diminish
the hours of labour? Ile expected nothing of that kind
from Reform. He expected that Reform would make
oldnothsnovoen sooner) haves
_tha(tHHeaoro,seheaar.rei_orewrfaairtshfNuvlouglduanrdoitahnnovte theeenpsuoblflice,piouertsiet.,
so wasteful, and i
tsoo.etxhpeennalatvicoso
been put an end ,
represented. But
debt, had the people been fully and fair
heavily taxed, nor have groaned under.. li.ts present load of
oduld".
di-
rniniuish the necessity for labour, was absurd• e could
to say that Reform would reduce the price of bread or
not wish his greatest enemy a greater . evil than,
vote by
to pro-
pound a plan of Reform of universal suffrage ant
ballot, on the .ground that it would make bread cheap and
lab.Jur light, and afterwards to meet the disappointed peo-

plc. Such language nal exitewely ilangelous, and he was
astonished that the lion. Member had not disavowed it.

Petition was read. On the metio❑ that it be laid on
the table.
Major MACNAMARA said, that he was o❑ the hust-
ings at Clare, at the election of 1529, and then the Hon.
Member for Waterford had made no such promises as had
been stated by the Hon. Member for Preston.
An HON. AIEINIBER said, that the petition could afford
no evidence of what were the feelings of the people of Scot-
land as to the Reform Bill ; for it was dated March the
4,th, before the people who had signed it could know the
contents of that Bill.

Mr. O'CONNELL would not have taken any notice of
the observations of the Hon. Member for Preston, had he
not introduced the names of the Marquis of Anglesea and
Mr. Bennett, and he was quite sure that, as to them, the
charge was unfounded. As far as Mr. Bennett was con-
cerned, he said, unequivocally, that it was totally with-
felt foundation. As to the Marquis of Anglesea, the
ffon. Member probably knew nothing more of pin), than
that he had seen him ride about the streets on horse-
lek ; and be was sure, that as to him the charge
was unfounded. As to himself, he would r assert,
iLiat since that House had been constituted, a charge
cure completely unfounded never had bees mule. The
lion. Member must now shift his ground.
Mr. HUNT rose to say, that the report alluded to by
the lion. Member was a false report. lie had stated no-
tiiing at Manchester that he had not stated in that House.
he had stated in that House, that what fell from the Mem-
ber for Caine was, that in the opinion of Ministers the
Bill was calculated to unite the middle classes to the higher
classes and the Government, and keep down the rabble.—
(No, no.) That was stated by the Hon. Member for
Caine. lie had repeated it, and it was placed on record
in the Times. The principle he had stated was, that
with the proposed Reform there would he a perpetual corn
law, and therefore bread would be no cheaper; but that
with a properly Reformed Parliament the Corn Laws
would he abolished, and bread would be cheaper. A Re-
h;rmed Parliament would get rid of the Corn Laws, but a
Parliament Reformed by the Bill would make the Corn
Laws perpetual. A Parliament Reformed as it ought to
be, would make corn cheap, clothing cheap, and labour
less. He bad stated that ; and he had stated that with a
Reformed Parliament it would not 'be necessary to work
sixteen hours a (lay. A Reformed Parliament would re-
lieve the people from pensions and taxes. A Reformed
Parliament would not have voted away the money of the
people as the present Parliament did last night when the
Civil List was before them ; and therefore he was friendly to
Reform of any kind. He meant nothing offensive to either
party, but he must say he was neither Whig nor Tory,
and he expected nothing, nor would take nothing which
it was in the power of either party to give.—(Hear, and
a laugh.) lie required no protection from any one, for he
hoped, as long as he had a scat in that House, that he
should be able to protect himself. With regard to the
Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. O'Connell), he repeated
that there had been propositions for a place sent to Lord
Anglesea by that Hon. Member, not only once, or twice,
or three times ; and he (Mr. Hunt) was satisfied, that it
they had been successful, there would have been no agita-
tion in Ireland. He did not know this of his own know-
ledge, but he had seen Mr. Bennett, who was acquainted
with the whole proceedings. The Member for Waterford
called on the Hon. Member for Weymouth to allow his
case to be brought before Parliament. Was the Member
for Waterford ready to allow these proceedings of his to lie
brought before the House ? Let him call for an inquiry,
and he (Mr. H.) would be able, lie thought, to produce
abundant evidence of the transactions to which he alluded.
He could name two Members of that House who were pre
sent with him at the time when Mr. Bennett told the whole
of the story. The Member for Waterford accused him of
a desire to get place ; let him answer now for himself, lie
(Mr. Hunt) had never asked fir any thing in his life, nor
he never deserved to have anything offered to him ; for, lie
repeated, he could not, nor would not, accept it.
The petition was then laid on the table.

Mr. HUME said, he had a petition to present from
700 shipwrights of the Thames in favour of the Reform
Bill. He particularly wished to direct the attention of the
House to this petition because it gave an answer to those
who asserted that the lower classes were adverse to the
Bill. These petitioners declared, that they expected the
advantage of good Government from the progress of
Reform. They were satisfied that their condition would
be improved by it; and he very much doubted whether
there were 200,000 persons in the country who did not
believe that the Bill would be advantageous, and that a
great boon was given to them by the measures of the Go-
vern tnent. —( Hear. )
Mr. O'CONNELL, on the question that the petition be
_ _

laid on the table, begged to say a few words in explana-
tion—and it would be really few. The Hon. Member fur
Preston had charged him with having negotiated with the
Government for a place, but he had not pretended to say
that he (Mr. O'Connell) was a party to any of these nego..
ciations. If Mr. Bennett said that he (Mr. O'Connell)
had any knowledge of, or connection with, negotiations
of that kind, all he could say then was, that Mr.
Bennett had given utterance to that which was totally
untrue. He believed, however, that Mr. Bennett,
when he beard of the assertions of the Hon. Member
for Preston on this subject—and hear of them he should
on the first moment when his residence was ascertained,
so that a letter could reach him—he believed, he repeated,
that Mr. Bennett would be quite ready to contradict what
bad been attributed to him by the Member for Preston.
He Mr. (O'Connell) did not believe that Mr. Bennett had
made such a statement ; but it he had, then all that could
be said was, that he (Mr. Bennett) had calumniated him,
and not the Member for Preston.
Lord WILLIAM GRAHAM, in presenting a petition
against the Reform Bill from the county of Dumbarton,
complained of the sweeping nature of the plan proposed
by the Government, and observed, that Ministers had
drawn their line with a very impolitic hand, for, by the
present arrangement, the influence of many counties would
be totally absorbed by that of others.
The LORD ADVOCATE said the petition presented

by the Noble Lord was agreed to at a meeting where
there were only thirty-six votes against twenty-five in op-
position to the Reform Bill. A meeting of a different de-
scription—a meeting of the landholders, and including a
great portion of the wealth and respectability of the
county—was about, however, to be convened, and he was
confident that the result of their decision would show a
very different feeling with respect to the Reform.—(Hear.)
Lord STORMONT reminded the Noble Lord that the
majority which decided at the late meeting against the
Reform Bill, was composed of men who had twice the
amount of landed property in the county which could be
claimed by the minority.—(Hear.)
Mr. CHARLES DOUGLAS said that the county of
Dumbarton contained 27,000 inhabitants, according to
the census of 1821, and under a new system, of which
population was one of the bases, it was certainly entitled
to a larger number of Members than that allotted to it by
the Bill.

Mr. KENNEDY was surprised to bear so much im-
portance attached to the division in the counties of Scot-
land. A few gentlemen assembled in a room in Edin-
burgh, and determined to oppose Reform, presented a pe-
tion from the city of Edinburgh. Then they get up an-
other petition, which they called the petition of the county
of Edinburgh, and being Magistrates of various counties,
they prim, eded afterwards to them, for the purpose of
swelling the majorities in favour of petitions of the same
description,—(Hear, hear.) He entreated the House to
look at the divisions which had taken place in different
counties on the subject of the Bill, and to take into their
consideration the number of persons who decided the
fate of the petitions compared with the real amount of
the inhabitants. In Banffshire, where there were 43,000
innabitants, a petition was agreed to against the Bill, at a
meeting where there were thirteen persons, four of whom
were in favour of Reform, and nine against it. In Ber-
wickshire, with 33,000 inhabitant;, 33 persons met, and
there certainly they were unanimous against the Bill.
Then came Dumbartonshire, in which the petition against
Reform was carried, as stated by the Lord Advocate, by
36 to 25. He admitted there was a majority of per-
sons of property against the Reform Bill, but the mem-
bers of the minority had greater property elsewhere.
—( Hear, bear.) Then came the county of Elgin with
:31,000 inhabitants, in which there was a meeting of nine
persons. Haddington, with 35,000,in which there were eight
in favour and four against; and Roxburglishire, in which
the petition was carried by 47 to 23. In that county,
however, there was a real meeting of the landholders and
inhabitants on the next day, and they.were unanimous in
favour of the Bill. In fact, wherever the real opinions of
the people could be collected, apart from those of the
voters fur the rotten borough system of Scotland, they
were unanimous in favour of the Bill. It appeared,
indeed, to him most extraordinary that, under such a
system so many persons of property should be found to
vote at county meetings in favour of the plan of Reform.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY deprecated the use of such
!anguage with reference to the county votes of Scotland.
rile Hon. Member, sitting as he did for a set of close.
boroughs, had been decrying the counties of Scotland, anti
applying to them, most improperly, the same language
which he would use with respect to the rotten boroughs
of England. If the Hon. Member for Preston bad used
such language with respect to Scotland, he could have
understood him, for it was consistent with his avowed

opinions on the subject of universal *Whey.; but it Cer-
tainly appeared strange that an Hon. Member, well ac-
quainted with the nature of the mode of election in Scot-
land, should characterise the county voters in such terms as
those used by the Hon. Member for Ayr, and decry pro-
perty, while he cried up the influence of numbers.—
(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Member, in his attempt to
prove that all Scotland was in favour of the Bill, had
alluded to the county of Roxburgh. Now he hap•
peeed, by accident, to have in his pocket a letter
from Sir Thomas Brisb me, the gentleman who
presided at the second county meeting, to which
the Honourable Member alluded. Great importance
had been attached to the opinions of that second
meeting, and he would, therefore, with the permission
of the House, read a short extract from the letter. Sir
Thomas said in it, " When I attended the meeting of the
county of Roxburgh to petition in favour of Reform, it
was because I believed it to be a Government measure, and
before the introduction of the Bill which, I must say now,
I consider far too sweeping in its provisions."—(Hear.)
"[his was a specimen of that reaction among a higher class,
which the Member for Preston had already described as
having taken place among a lower. That change had
t ken place among men of education and property, as well
as among the lower classes.—(Hear.) He never denied
that some amendment could be made in the system of re-
presentation in Scotland ; but he was satisf►ed that the
plan fur substituting a totally new system would be pro-
ductive of very injurious consequences. He applied him-
self particularly to Scotland, because he was better ac-
quainted with that country than any other. He could
say of it with sincerity, that its county representation was
as pure and independent as any to be found in England.
For himself, he could declare without hesitation, that he
was as free to act according to his judgment as any Member
of that House; and that when he was solicited to stand for
his native county, for which be had now been returned four
times, and the honour of representing which he prized
more than any be had ever received, he bad expressly
stated that he would connect himself with no party, nor
bind himself to follow any course of political conduct, save
that which appeared best calculated to promote the inte-
rests of his country.
Mr. KENNEDY, in explanation, denied that he had
4!ecried the influence of property, and said he used the
term rotten with reference to those voters who possessed
franchises for counties without any property whatever in
those counties.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH could not help making
a few observations in consequence of something that had
fallen from his Hon. Friend the Gallant Officer opposite.
He thought his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Sir G. Murray)
had shown his judgment, and the integrity of that judgment,
in admitting that the representation of Scotland was the
least tenable part of the Constitution,. though he had not
made his admission in such express terms. He was a
little surprised at the reference that had been made

to Sir Thomas Brisbane's letter, with respect to
showing which of the two meetings in the county of Rox-
burgh were the most numerous. Sir Thomas was a
person whom he (Sir James Mackintosh) had a very par-
ticular respect for, and that he had changed his opinions
after he had been for some time Chairman at the second
meeting was of no sort of importance in comparison to the
value of the two meetings, because Sir Thomas went to
preside there, knowing pulectly that the first meeting had
been held, and he could in no way have shewn more
distinctly his impression that the state of the county had
not been taken when the second meeting was called than
he did by taking the chair.—(Cries of Ifear, hear.)
His firm opinion was that the middle class of
persons in Scotland was still decidedly in favou
of Parliamentary Reform, and he was persuaded that a
meeting of freeholders might be held in Scotland at which
twenty acres of land might not he represented, so greatly
were the freeholders separated from the landowners.
—(Hear, hear,) Scotland at this moment possessed
no free Government. The Parliamentary representation
was nothing like what it ought to have been. Scotland
never had had that security in her Parliamentary
representation which justice demanded, and which the
present measure was calculated to confer upon her. There
was a medium of representation required, neither was
universal suffrage advocated by those who wished well to
Scotland, or did they desire to have the present system
continued.

Sir G. CLERK could not conceive how the Hon.
Gentleman who just sat down could be found to support a
Bill which was, according to what he had stated, to give
to Scotland a similar representation to that which Eng-
land had heretofore possessed, and which was now so much
deprecated as it regarded England, but under which both
England and Scotland bad prospered. The meetings
that had taken place i❑ Scotland against the proposed
measure must be admitted to have been attended by persons
who could make it convenient to attend, and who were

capable of taking part in the discussions. At the
meeting which had taken place in favour of the Bill,
and which had been called the more numerous meeting, it
was well known that only one side could obtain a hear-
ing. He did not see how any Honourable Member, who
was at all acquainted with the state of feeling in Scot-
land, could deny that by far the greater proportion of landed
proprietors were against the measure. As to its being
said that the same persons had gone from county to county
and called meetings to petition against the measure, he
should be glad to know if those who had presented pe-
titions in favour of Reform had not appeared in 20 or:30
(Effie ent characters. With respect also to the disturbances
which had already taken place in Scotland, and particularly
,
in Edinburgh, in consequence of the introduction of
this measure, he regarded those as discreditable to
Edinburgh, and hoped the Noble Lord opposite would
take all the care in his power to prevent a repetition of
the excesses there. He believed that almost every indi-
vidualti ,
Ing
Ico'fastiomfeopui'noiuolnd that
tsief etrheiseaery
Bill
' passed, no great
individual would
enjoy the right of elective franchise.
Sir G. WARRENDER had had communication, from
some of the best informed persons in Scotland on the sub-
ject of the proposed measure, and without entering into the
question of how many meetings had been called, and of
how many persons bad voted at those meetings in favour,
and bow many against the Bill, he was happy in
being allowed to take thus the earliest opportunity of
avowing the degree of change which had taken place in his
mind respecting the Bill, as it affected Scotland, nainely,
that a popular election must take place there.--(Loud
cheers.) Now, as a Scotelnnan, he frankly avowed
that the present system of sending Members to Parliament
in Scotland could no longer exist. He begged, how-
ever, to tell the Noble Lord opposite that he should differ
most materially with him upon many important details in
the Bill ; most materially should he oppose the disfran-
chising of any place whatever either in England or else- '
where. With many other Scotch gentlemen he made con-
siderable sacrifice in making the concession he now did in
respect
ttoecallingfor popular elections in Scotland ; but he
sacrifice cheerfully, because lie was now per-
suaded that the benefit of his country required it. -
Colonel BAILEY was decidedly favourable to the mea-
sure. A great deal had been said in that House respect-
ing the state of the elective franchise in the counties of
Scotland. He begged to say he had a vote in one of
the counties, founded not in a right of his property,
bi'vritlo'teuirmgeei c,hteleeii,coat ityhee franchise.-_.(
lc, haisoed. ( H
would Hear.)
rt.o)k
which he himself owned, but in what—he did not know
hadt.ac :earn d esi:lowii property,
bythhee I:tioble no
Lord
dre ‘Nvvhhaoteiviaedr
how exactly. to describe it—in virtue of superiority—a
right over the lands of others; as bile in another county,
_ar, .
.. .
‘into s,otninittee immediately General GASCOYNE deprecated strongly the vacil-
lating
Aelinthisters intended to,
lt,,
y opportunitylras lwstio.
ask what method his Majesty's
question,
curs eit) h e
tPivei)u,eir.iprorsosibgleo, witl,r'out some: rhe'vadiouhs.'t examination into
the,ity tfnocrasduuree
deliberation,
islbtehriacittiotnh,e
to immediately decide the withoutsr to o be e
an callednppnutptonn-
eard so much, hut
understood so little. Was that House
alterations had been
explained.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL could only say that on Monday
he should make the statements that he had previously
promised, with
majesty's Ministers in the Bill • and when the House had
heard his statements, it might
what course should thereafter be pursued.—(Hear, hear.).
Mr. FANS said when he considered the principle of the
Bill great suspicions were
The principle of the Bill
unavoidably excited in his mind.
was traffic in the suffrage of the
people of England—to sell one man to buy another, to sell
one country to buy two t
Bill,
induce Scotland and Ireland
nationally to support the by adding totheir represen-
tations by subtraction from
the representatives of England.
He considered that alternative a national insult to the
United Kingdom.
The petition was then ordered to be printed.
STEAM NAVIGATION.
Lord WM. GRAHAM
presented a petition from the
Nobility, Gentry, and I
Freeholders of the county of Dum-
barton, against any tax on steam-boats.
MESSAGE
FROM
THE KING.
Lord ALTHORp
Majesty,
wht.v.,
was
brought down a Message front his
to the following
etr:
tread by the Speaker; and which was
" W. R.--His Majesty,effect
trusting to the affectionate
regard of his faithful Commons, bosh for his Majesty and
for the Queen, recommends-to them the immediate consi-

ilerittiun of a provision for mainlining her 11/ajesty in hei
Royal dignity, in case she should sui vivo his Majesty."
Oa the motion of Lord ALTHORP, it was ordered
that his Majesty's most graciiTs Message should be re-
ferred to-morrow to the consideration of a Committee of
the whole House.