The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-08 00:00:00

i

C itholic ho should so exercises franchise.—(Hear,
heir.)
extract
Tell'e Right Hon. Gentleman here read the following
You say that Lord Kenmare, in the first instance,
was inclined to. be neutral,' and to take no part in the elec-
tion en e
„s, said so." " And that the denunciations of
""ir• Connell in the ccunty caused him to change his mind,
Aand by his agent, or otherwise, to inform the freeholders it was
2:1:4.11 they should support the Knight of Kerry ?" " I
w,te7,l.E„ln Lord Kenmare's own handwriting that that was his
„es " You saw it in some document of Lord Kenmare's ?"
addressed to the agent, Mr. Gallwey." " llave you any
copy of that letter ?" " I have." " Will you produce it ?"
"This
is the letter :" DEAR Ms. GALLWEY—You are aware,
as the public must be, that it was my determination to take no
part in the approaching election for the county. We are
1108 V arrived at a point beyond which forbearance is no longer
possible; it is not now a matter of politics—the question at
l_ss,tm is, whether we are to bow our heads to a system of in-
solent dictation and intimidation : whether those freeholders
twho will not submit to be used as mere puppets by Mr. O'Coa-
tell are to be pointed at with impunity as objects of insult and
assassination, for what other meaning can be attached to the
denunciation, that a death's head and cross bones are to be
affixed to the doors of those independent individuals who will
not obey his mandates ! 11 when the mob in Tralee is told that
those who will not vote as he dictates are to be dragged from
the.hustings and trampled under foot. Under these circum.
tances I am driven to abandon my original intentions, and
have to request that you will convey to my friends and tenantry
Thy desire and most earnest intreaty that they will vote for the
Knight of Kerry. I certainly do not think that I require too
Much from them when I ask for one vote from each.
N (Signed) KENMARE.' "
Kenmare's,
put it to the House to say whether this letter of Lord
unlare's, a nobleman not of his way of thinking—a Whig
`n Principles—the constant advocate of liberal institutions, who
Was appointed by Earl Grey's Government to the Lord Lieu-
Leaney of the county of Kerry—a man irreproachable elm-
'ler, and one of the best landlords of Ireland, did not fully
beat out his position, that in the mind of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman sectarian feelings were mixed up with
political considerations.—( Hear.) He considered, then, that
taking into consideration the circumstances in which Ireland
Was placed, it was impossible with safety to grant the proposed
alsisure of reform. Was the House aware of the scenes that
wit
occurred at fairs in Ireland ? Such, he hesitated not
w.° say, with all their brutal and disgusting accompaniments,
with all their appalling and revolting tragedies, would be the
cora:taut scenes at municipal elections held under the Bill as it
1143‘v stood. The Hon. and Learned Men.ber for Tipperary
lad lately accused him, and the party with whom he acted, of
a disposition to raise a " No Popery" cry.—( Loud cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) He denied it.—(Hear.) Ile
Maintained, on the contrary, that the" Popery" cry had been
raised by the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
and his
party.—( Hear, hear.) Ile had only to refer to the
voltime of evidence before him to prove that in hundreds
of instances the Popery cry had been raised for political
objects.—( Hear.) Could they. have better proof of the fact
than
an was to be found in the circumstance of the Hon. and
darned Member for Tipperary writing to a Protestant clergy-
lateen, to whom he was indebted on account of tithes, stating
twit at the present moment he could not satisfy his demand, as
doing so he would be sure to lose his scat in the event of
all election ?—( Hear, hear.) Could there, lie asked, be a
11,, "ger proof that the Popery cry had been raised in Ireland,
" Was offered by the fact, that a member of that House,
eise
s
fo Inguished as much for his political influence and power as
r the eloquence he called into play upon every question de-
ated within its walls, felt obliged to defer doing an act of
teustiee, an act of honesty, by the fear that in doing so he would
sacrificing his seat in Parliament ?—( Hear.) He called
.Poe the House to refer to the case of Lord de Vesci. A
..111(3re benevolent, kind-hearted landlord than Lord.de Vesci
never breathed; his estate was, in fact, the seat of happiness
red
e Prosperity, and yet upon his bringing forward his son to
14esclat the county to which he belonged, in Parliament, he
ariine on the moment the object of the most virulent attack
If vituperation. Similar instances were plentiful. The Right
nh• evening,th Chancellor of the Exchequer, observed,
a former , that it would argue a disregard of jus-
-e
as regarded Ireland, if the same measures which were
ibis d to England country. Now
were not extended to that
with all due respect, was a perfect fallacy of argument.
ee point of fact, there was no identity or assimilation of mea-
l-41:es between the two countries. Take the very Bills then
7o re the House—take, for instance, the Constabulary Bill.
teald there be in principle anything more monstrous than
eepeit in a country which boasted of its freedom, it was found
tl'esary for the protection of the lives of its people to keep
a police force of 5,000 men armed with muskets, and con-
eetialY provided with ball-cartridges.—( Hear.) Nay, it was
like found necessary to keep these men cooped in barracks
11 Soldier., to prevent their mixing too much with the people.
•ese precautions the state of the country articular) re-
_ .
• red
maw so that it was quite absurd. to talk of identity or assi.
lant. I°ll of measures between it and England. Then,. again,
stood the case as regarded assistant-barristers in Ire-
i 117 ?, Why, those officers bad a power of trying cases
.44 Ireland which not even the Judges of England possessed.
oi`"ear, hear, hear.) Irish assistant-barristers had the power
g civil causes of ejectment, and, without the aid
(If trying
might assess damages under fifty pounds.
pat'. "le argument of identity of measures between the two
die es was entirely fallacious ; for in almost every respect
eaterent legislation had been applied to the distinct and sepe-
ta condition of each. The principal thing which Ireland re-
prored was repose and a cessation from agitation.—(Cheers.)
pearel a reference to the book of evidence before him, it ap-
the ed that upon the occasion of a late election at Clonmel, in
key,shotuly of Tipperary, a most respectable individual, a qua-
for years previous had given employment to nearly
souls, and who paid ire wages weekly upwards of 300/.,
for the sole offence of voting for Mr. Bagwell, in opposi-
fut to the Liberal candidate, been attacked in the most shame-
mob at and obliged for a time to conceal himself from the
tut eaf-t,"'s house. This was, unfortunately, but one instance
de•
ns re",e many. In what way, he asked, would the lower or-
al% toe Irish people be benefitted by the present measure ?
IteYe' the only advantage they would derive from it was
4T:l;3:ping rid of some few tolls. This would prove of
ter" vantage, it was true, but certainly of far less than was
eted.
alla%7ord HOWICK said, with the exception of some personal
tlenth ns, there was nothing whatever in the Right Hon. Gen-
bPon-Itte's sPeech.---t Cheers.) He had entered into a dispute
id,nl `"e /act, as to whether or not the Hon. and 'Learned
fretiteitt for Dublin was the author of the clause which dis-
11,Pon tihsed the Irish 403. freeholders, and also into a dispute
The las-at same Hon. Member's conduct upon the occasion of
(',oral election, proceeding from thence into what. he
tag st "°lvick) was afraid was a too true picture of the exist-
fore—ate of Ireland ; but in doing so, lie seemed totally to
e,est,setr that it was incumbent upon them to show how all these
sureendered the Bill before the House an improper ma-
hQ in' Or Why, supposing all the assertions he indulged in to
Rerous substance correct, the House would be trying a clan-
(-11.Por experiment, in extending. to Ireland a measure of
to the ate Reform in any respect similar to that lately granted
aerted People of England.—(Hear, hear.) It was as-
tl:at one of the objects of the Bill was to place in the
erei'ste f persons notoriously actuated by party spirit, the
Wes tlatlministration of municipal justice; but how, he asked,
• th'aet assertion capable of being sustained in the very face
Esigh9shlaci)t.that the principle of the .present, as well as of the
4111144 ."'ll, was the separation of all that related to the ad-
eenaeilat ion of justice from the political functions of the town
sKiels is ?ci---( Hear.) What was, he asked, the state of things
to /soil? ueed the Government in the last session to propose
Cella; I,ament their measure of English Municipal Reform ?
.lultice4l,lcrYait was the circumstance that the administration of
ei4eeere e impeded by the system under which the borough
sesreers ere enabled to elect magistrates and their own re-
tjte English any reference whatever to the Crown. In
:.rolert6Vl an Bill this defect was remedied, by giving to the
ably t "c nomination of magistrates and recorders, reserving
theiq 0 the town councils the pob r of recommendation. Now,
Pre Irish Bill theywet muchwe further ; for in it it was ex-
in ill: provided that the appointment should rest absolutely
la°. be withrn ; and even the power of recommendation was
teut held from the councils which it was proposed to con-
ah • e* Great stress had been laid upon the proposal to allow
sheriffs to Great
it w b elected by the town council, and among other
ands of 4P Contended that this provision, by throwing into the
th
could select 7 town council the appointment of the persons who
impartial
the jury-lists, might have great effect upon
Ton her rtial administration of justice. Now in this objec-
would b confessed he saw nothing ; but at the same time it
"e4t inteeP,e.rfectly optional with .the House, when the Bill
as was ‘-;ommittee to change this portion of the Bill ; and,
l/rtßeers,Ptro°Pv°_ted to be' done in the case of the other municipal
°would the ere est the nomination of Sheriffs in towns in the hands
dev7ll. Now what, let him ask, were the functions that
were
upon the proposed municipal bodies ? Those
ar,Properjrne neither more nor less than the management of
110(1 the raaYen now so grossly abused by existine Corporations,
4111 Gentl'geMent of those local concerns which the Right
siae hehes "lan opposite had said he was perfectly willing to
Gc won towns to administer. Was so largp a eity.as Dub
k, toernmelit ? s\l to be deprived of everything like a local
ere such towns as Cork, Belfast, and Lime-
he deprived of all local Government ? Upon what pos-
Qe their
O'a t__ll9, refuse such towns the power to ma-
n affairs ? The Right Honourable Baronet
truth,ember for Tamworth last year stated, wish perfect
Ithe"tet•l2ats . great advantag,es. would result from giving
Could local organization.—(Hear, bear.) He said that
rk-;4olen_tniss:Lonterdseny_ the conclusion, from the Report- of the
e„ 111 when the °I. Corporate Inquiry, that the time had ar-
of self-government should be ve and tre Islaceesort_hPoiawtwe.erre at prese.nt destitute of that power;.
strorti 48 the
ental to goodP ions then existing ought to be made in-
government and improvement in the towns.
shoal ngotnherreorporation of Dublin then be made in-
ntnteental to
titibe Right ll:;"eilnment and improvement? Accord-
aronet's own statement the other eve-
-24,00, e corporation o'f Dublin had an income of not less than
a-year
ter"ided for h should the administration of that property
til(e7 °f minY •the novel and most unconstitutional ex-
th_
_o lasts)r attling commissioners by the Crown? The
thedue adr:i, le Right Hon. Baronet said, provided for
est nypoint_nei. ration of justice. But it was not by allowing
Jth Y s
no
nt of judges and magistrates. because ey 40 ernment then thought with respect to glandEn as
tee vs thee-h. .
Ito popular with respect to Ireland, that the exercise of
igarneets„..7".leas not the proper way to appoint men to the
ueerlesid thivsltle was fully convinced that to the great towns in
e4re, any tewe'sur:vould afford an inestimable benefit. If there
Pointed out. He was prepared to discuss,
ilthCliCs4 4retoisnoer;stbe merits of every borough in Ireland ; and if
es,
tc,;,°ll,ld be shown against any being included in
fined for -reofuulstiggitvoe them up- What were the grounds
eentrust the towns and cities lr-

land with the management of their own local a ;Nes ?
(Hear, hear, hear.) -The Right Honourable and Gallant
Officer had stated that one reason was, that party spirit raged
in Ireland at this moment, and that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin possessed a power which no subject ought
to possess. That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had no right
conferred upon him by Act of Parliament. It was conferred
on and secured to him by the free will and pleasure of the
people ; and if Hon. Gentlemen opposite made that deference
which the people of Ireland thought proper to pay the Hon.
and Learned Member, a reason for refusing to the Irish people
the power of managing their own concerns, then they were
bound, in common sense and reason, to carry their principle
much further. They ought in that case to proceed to legis-
late against every principle of popular Government altogether.
Loud cheers.) They must deprive the Irish people of all
the political power they now posses=.—(Cheers.) The whole
argument of the floe. and Learned Sergeant the Member
for Bandon was directed not against allowing the people the
management of their own local affairs, but against allowing
them to choose members to represent them in the House of
Commons.—( Hear, hear.) Ile actually told the House that
the commissioners fiur paving and lighting the town of
Youghal were appointed and acted with a total absence
of party spirit until the Noble Lord the Member for South
Lancashire, reformed ti►e Irish boroughs. But if they would
look at the consequences of refusing to pass this Bill, they
would see that instead of preventing the danger Hon. Gentle-
men opposite apprehended from its aloption, the) would in-
crease the danger tenfold. As they could not take from the
people of Ireland those political powers the Legislature had
given them, the only safe policy they could now pursue was
to endeavour to diminish the temptation to abase those powers,
and to diminish the influence of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, by gaining back to the Government and to the Impe-
rial Legislature that respect and those affections which never
ought to be taught to direct themselves to any other quarter.
This was the mistake which Hon. Gentlemen opposite made;
they looked only to one side of the question. The Right
Hon. Baronet had asked whether the Jlouse were prepared to
make these towns so many " normal schools of peaceful agi-
tation ?" The Right Hon. Baronet was ever ready to take
advantage of any careless expresSion which might drop from
an opponent. But there was great truth in what had been
stated by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin as to
these towns becoming " normal schools;" and in his (Lord
Howick's) opinion, instead of that being a reason for voting
against this Bill, it was a reason for passing it into a law.
He believed that the Irish Corporations would be " normal
schools," not of agitation, but for teach►ng the people of Ire-
land the right use of the powers of self-government.—
(Cheers.) That Hon. and Learned Member had stated that
he was willing to co-operate with the Government and the Le-
gislature to bring to pass that which would effectually sap the
foundation of his power. lie (Lord Howick) perceived by
the countenance of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
that he disbelieved that assertion. But were that assertion
true, or were it false, the policy this House ought to pursue
was one and the same.—(Cheers.) Let them take advan-
tage of the interval of freedom from agitation that now pre-
vailed to do real and complete justice to Ireland. lie
should sincerely regret, if on account of religion either in
the Protestant cities of the north, or the Catholic cities of
the south, those who differed from the majority should be
permanently excluded from the corporations. He heard al-
most with disgust—certainly with a feeling of the most
painful kind—the questions which in the beginning of the
evening were addressed to an Hon. and Learned Friend
near him ( Lord Howick) by the Hon. and Learned Ser-
geant the Member for Bandon.—(Hear, hear.) Did the
House mark the emphasis, and hear the way in which that
Hon. and Learned Member inquired whether he had ap-
pointed this Roman Catholic barrister and that Roman Ca.
tholic barrister to different situations 7—(Loud cheers.) He
(Lord Howick) was almost sorry his Hon. and Learned Friend
answered the question. Had the question been addressed to
him, he should have said—that a question addressed in that
offensive manner he would not answer.—(Loud cheers.) He
would say in this House, and everywhere else, that in matters
of appointments to public situations he knew not the Roman
Catholic or the Protestant.—( Renewed cheers.) He was glad
to hear the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer who spoke last
disclaim his having been a party to the getting up of that most
odious cry of "No Popery." But could all the Hon. Mem-
bers on that side hold the same language ?—( Loud cheers.)
He wished to know, had no encouragement been given by
Gentlemen sitting opposite him to those Reverend itinerants
who during the recess had been going about the country
preaching religious intolerance in the name of Protestantism,
which rested upon the right of private judgment, and hatred
and religious animosity in the name of Christianity, which was
the religion of peace and charity.—(Cheers.) But he did
hope that the efforts of those miss►onaries of mischief—(Loud
cheers)—to fan the flame of religious animosity had not so far
succeeded, as, is the House should pass the Bill, would make
the election of the town councils an instrument of rejecting the
Protestant minority from all corporate offices. He did hope
the House would consider well before it should agree to adopt
the measure which had been proposed by the Right Hon.
Baronet. He trusted, before they determined to do so, they
would coolly and impartially view what would be the real and
substantial difference between the two projects. He was con-
♦inced that if they would give their attention, to that question
they would sec nothing whatever in the Bill now on the table
which justified those imputations which had been cast upon it,
and that by rejecting it they would, without any real or intel-
ligible object to them, both gratuitously and wantonly inflict a
deep, and he was afraid, almost an irreparable insult on the
Irish people.—( Loud cheers. )
The Noble Lord having resumed his seat, the House be-
came impatient to adjourn, and loudly called for Mr. Bro-
therton.

The debate was then adjourned ; but whether on the motion
of Mr. Brotherton, or some other lion. Member, we were not
able to ascertain.
STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
On the motion of Mr. DIVETT, the House resolved itself
into a Committee of the whole House on this Bill.
Captain C ET WYND objected to the preamble, as being
unsupported by the facts of the case. It spoke of notorious
and systematic bribery. He wished to know what proof there
was in corroboration of the statement.
Mr. DIVETT, in reply, begged to refer the Hon. Gentle-
man to the Report of the Committee.
The House resumed. The other Orders of the Day were
disposed of ; and the House adjourned at a quarter past one
o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, 211.4neff 7.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
five o'clock.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
The Earl of RIPON presented seven petitions from variou3
places in the county of Lincoln against the Probate Clause in
the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill.
The Duke of RUTLAND presented a petition to the
same effect from the Attornies and Solicitors of the town and
county of Leicester.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

The NOBLE DUKE also presented a petition from Walton in
Leicester, and from the Leicestershire Agricultural Society,
complaining of agricultural distress.
TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS.

Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the Lord
Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of Lfin-
don, praying for the revision or repeal of the declaration to be
made by Protestant Dissenters, contained in the 9th of Geo.
IV., called the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts. The
Noble Lord stated that he should have felt great satisfaction
at the time that that Act passed ifhe could have prevented that
declaration from being inserted, but he was authorised by a great
bodyjof Protestant Dissenters to consent to the Act being passed
in the shape in which it did. Ile, however, at that time thought a
great many of the evils would arise that were now complained
of. Although he did not feel prepared to say it was his inten-
tion to propose any alteration on the subject, yet he should feel
himself bound, if the. matter was taken up by any one of
their Lordships, or by any Member of the other House, to give
any measure that migl.t have the object in view prayed for by
the petition he had presented, his most strenuous support.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.

The Earl of FALMOUTH presented petitions from Fal-
mouth and Exeter against the probate clause in the above Bill.
The Bishop of LINCOLN presented a petition to the sam..!
effect from Lincoln.
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions to the same
effect from Newport, Cheltenham, and Carmarthen.
BUILDING OF WORKHOUSES. _ _

Lord A SlfliUltToN presented a petition from the Paro-
chial Union of Devizes, praying that the loan for building
workhouses might be extended to ten instead of twenty years.

EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that on Tuesday,
the 15th inst., he should move the House that a Select Com-
mittee he appointed to inquire into the operations of the
national system of education in Ireland.
ORANGE LODGES.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY confessed that be was
not sorry that his motion was deferred till that day. He had
now the assistance of his Noble Friend ( Earl Roden) who,
from his well known character, and from the manner in which
he was respected in Ireland, would certainly be of great
service upon this question.—( Hear, hear.) It had not
been his intention to have entered into the policy of the
measures which had been lately taken ; but with his feel-
ings excited as they were, he was afraid l►e must have said
something with respect to what so intimately concerned the
country which gave him birth. He confessed that he was
much surprised on a former evening, on being told by a Noble
Viscount opposite (Melbourne) that he (Lord Londonderry)
was not, or ought not to be interested, and could care nothing
for this question—that was an assertion made by the Noble
Lord when he was in one of his off-hand ways.—( Laughter.)
He doubted whether the Noble Viscount in the midst of I►is
multifarious duties had had time to look through the case, and
find whether it affected him ( Lord L.) or not ; but the
Noble Viscount was in the habit of coming down to that
House and stating things in an off-hand way, which rather
astonished many of their Lordships. For instance, he re-
membered him coming down to that House and stating
that the decree of Don Carlos was noth►ng—that there
was no truth in it.—( Hear.) He also remembered him
coming to the House, and stating that he took the Govern-
ment upon the appropriation clause ; upon it he stood—and
yet, strange to say, they had never heard one word of it. He
hoped to be able to show, before he sat down, that he
was right in the course he was pursuing ; and he trusted that
the Noble Viscount n-ould not treat him with that dignified
silence which was sometimes his habit, but state whether if
he had been placed in the same situation—whether if he I►ad
been mixed up with the doings of a Society of which he
( Lord L.) knew as little as the Noble Viscount—
(Hear, hear,) would he be contented to remain
under these aspersions ? From the short experience he had of
Parliamentary life, be had always understood that gentlemanly

feeling and honour required that, when documents were read af-
fecting the character of a Member of the Legislature, they should
be read in extols°, and not be garbled.—( Hear, hear.) He
also thought that it was generally usual to give notice
to the person accused, so that he might either be pre-
sent, or have some of his friends present, in order to
defend the accused party. It had happened that he had had
an affectionate and a gallant son present, who would not allow
such false charges to go forth against his father : he pinned the
accuser down, and extracted a verdict of not guilty, but it was
given in such a way, the animus was shown so strongly, that he
laughed the whole matter to scorn. He begged to state that he was
paeparcd in the first instance to bring the whole subject before the
House ; but his friends—ho did not mean the Noble Duke, late
at the head of the Society, or any of those Noble Lords who
were implicated in the charge—with neither of them hed
he had the slightest 'communication ; but some of his private
friends had said, " Oh, wflnt do you care for Mr. Hume or
Mr. O'Connell ? Who cares for what they say ? It would be a
work of supererogation on your part, at your thee of life, and after
having gone through your profession with the honour which
you have received, to notice one word which fell from such
men."—( Laughter.) His feelings were very much of the same
nature as his friends ; but then Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Connell
by the unfortunate position in which the country was now
placed, had the power to delude one half of the people ; nay
more, it would be in vain for the Noble Viscount, or any Noble
Lord opposite, to get up and deny that the directing
power of the Government was in their hands.—( Hear, bear.)
When he said this he must also say that an individual standing
in his humble position could not, and ought not, to
put aside those insinuations. If his opinion was er-
roneous he took it from a Journal which he considered
one of the most able and classic he had ever read ; there
was one sentence which was stated in that Journal which
he would read to their Lordships. That at once decided him
as to the course he should pursue, notwithstanding he had
had no communication with any Noble Lord on that side of
the House. After reading that, he was convinced that he
ought to go forward. The paragraph he referred to was this—
" The innocent man whO submitted to slander might
take, and probably did take, the wisest course when he
submitted in silence—( Hear, hear)—but he did not take the
wisest course, when he purchased private peace at the sacrifice
of public utility."---( Cheers.) If, before he sat down, he did
not expose the slanderous accusations that had been made, he
should be greatly mistaken.—(Cheers.) He would now pro-
ceed to read what he had seen in the public Journals, in order
to show their Lordships the necessity of bringing the subject
before them. In the debate in the House of Commons cer-
tain letters were read, and certain inferences were drawn._
( Cheers.) He did not blame the reporters, because he
was sure they were not only most honourable men,
but they would not wilfully state any thing against
any person (even one so humble as himself), that
had not been' stated.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis then
read several extracts from the debate in the House of Com-
mons, in which certain letters had been read by Mr. Flume with
reference to the succession to the crown. Now he would ask their
Lordships whether any person reading that paragraph would
not suppose that he had stated that a case would
arise in which an alteration in the succession to the Throne
would be necessary ? When such an accusation was made
against him. he naturally looked to see if it was well
founded, and he was at a loss to find even a single ground for it.
He held in his hand the original letters which passed between
himself and Colonel Fairman in 1832, and when they were
put into the hands of the clerk of their Lordships' house,
they would see the interlineations, the interpolations, and, in
short, the total difference between them and those published in
the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons.
There were no less than 22 differences between the printed
copies and the original letters. They were not all import-
ant, but some of them entirely altered the sense of the letters.
In one case, speaking of the Ministry in the• orieinal letter,
he (the Marquis of Londonderry) had said " the abject slaves
of a ferocious, revolutionary. and subversive press" —while in
the printed copy it was " the abject slaves of a ferocious, sans
guinary, and subversive press."—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
In another passage, speaking of the Whigs, he word " sedi-
tious" was applied to them in the printed copy, although
it was not in the original letter. The Noble Marquis then
proceeded to read die first letter he had received from Colonel
Fairman, in which the latter alluded to a conference with his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, and which he
would declare upon his honour as a Peer had never takes
place, and therefore the statement was altogether unfolinded.
(The reading of Colonel Fairman's first letter, which has been
already published, occasioned much laughter.) Not having
answered that letter for a few days he had received a second
one, and he then thought it necessary to reply. In that year,
1832, when he remembered the Birmingham Union, and the
P.~litu al Trachie Unions, and the attacks on many of the houses
of their Lerdslapi in that city, who were opposed to Reform
—( Cries of " Hear")—and the views of these associations.
He (the Marquis of Londonderry) had not retained a copy of
that letter, and in consequence had been obliged, through the
medium of a friend, to apply to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Flume) by whom it had been quoted in the other House, for a
copy of it. This the Hon. Gentleman had consented to do,
and he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was thus enabled to
read it to their Lordships. It was in these terms :
" Wynyard Park, August 8, 1832.

" Sir,—l am honoured with your two communications of the
29th and 30th ult. You do me only justice in believing that I
would most willingly embrace every opportunity and do ,all in
my power to espouse the cause, and establish the in-
stitutions you allude to, in this part of the kingdom." When he
expressed his readiness to facilitate, as far as possible, the establish-
ment of the institutions alluded to, he never contemplated thorn in
the shape of secret societies. If it had been his intention to intro-
duce Orange Societies into the North of England, he would natu-
rally have first made himself master of the details of such Societies.
—(Hear, hear.) He would have attended the Orange Societies in
London, and have taken care to have hut himself regularly and
properly initiated as an Orangeman.—( Hear, hear.) 'But he had
done nothing of the kind ; and when he talked of lending his aid
to establish Institutions in the North, he meant only to establish
Institutions of such a nature and character as should unite the loyal
and well-disposed part of the population in opposition to those who
were carried away by -the democratic spirit of the day.—(Hear,'
hear.) In his letter, in reply to Colonel Fairman, he added—
But the present state of Liberal Whig feeling in this very
Whig county, and the very refractory and insubordinate state of
the pitmen, entirely preclude the possibility of successful efforts at
this juncture. I have had a full conversation and communication
with Lord Kenyon on all this matter, who has been in nay house
these last two days, and I have.no doubt he will convince his Royal
Highness, as well as yourself, that the present moment is not the
time when the object can be forwarded.
" I will lose no opportunity of embracing any opeaing that may
arise ; and
" I have the honour to be, Sir, your very obedient servant,
(Signed) 66 VANE LONDONDERRY."
He thought that the way in which he there mentioned the con-
versation he had had with Lord Kenyon, who was then stay-
ing at his house for a few days to enjoy the company of a com-
mon friend of theirs, the late Bishop of Durham, afforded an:
other pretty strong proof that previous to that time he had had
no communication on the subject with his Royal Highness the
Duke of Cumberland.—( Hear, hear.) Shortly after he had
written this letter to Colonel Fairman, he called upon Mr.
Wright of Sunderland, a solicitor of great respectability, and
a man of very considerable ability, to ascertain the nature of
the conversation which had taken place between him and Col.
Fairman, and also to learn what his views and feelings upon
the subject were. Finding that Mr. Wright's name had been
alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) who brought
forward the subject of Orange Lodges in the other House the
other evening, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) immediately
wrote to that Gentleman, and he would read to their. Lordships
the answer he had received :--My Dear Lord—l had the
honour of receiving your Lordship's letter of the 26th inst. :
and in reply to your Lordship's inquiries I beg to state that I
never had any conversation with Colonel Fairman on the
subject of the establishment of Orange Lodges amongst the
pitmen, with whore, as your Lordship knows, I am in no man-
ner acquainted ; nor do I understand by the letter read by
Mr. Hume, in Isis speech in which my name is mentioned, that
any conversation with me as to the pitmen, is alleged by Colo-
nel Fairman to have taken place. I recollect the time at
which Colonel Fairman (to whom I was introduced in June or
July, 1832) spoke to me of the public advantage he conceived
would result from the establishment of Orange lodges in
Sunderland : and he asked me, if your Lordship had much in-
fluence in that town ? I expressed my opinion that your
Lordship bad much influence in Sunderland ; but I doubted
the necessity of establishing Orange lodges there. It is pos-
sible it may have escaped your Lordship's recollection; but I
remember in August, 1832, I was at Wynyard-park, on a
visit to your Lordship, the very day Lord Kenyon left, and on
the following day your Lordship mentioned to me that you had
received letters from Colonel Fairman, soliciting your aid in
the establishment of Orange lodges in the north of England,
and thit you had written him an answer declining to interfere
in the matter. lam certain this is the only conversation
your Lordship and I ever had upon the subject of Orange
Lodges, and know, both from the manner in which your
Lordship expressed yourself on that occasion, and from
your never having alluded to the subject in conversa-
tion with me since, that you never entertained the
idea of establishing Orange Lodges in the North of England."
The third letter be received from Col. Fairman was dated At-
kinson's Hotel, Glasgow, October 3d, 1833, and its only ob-
ject was to inform him (the Marquis of Londonderry) that a
grand Conservative dinner was to take place at Glasgow, and
to request him to attend it. To this letter, as far as he could
remember, he replied, that he should have the greatest' satis-
faction in attending the meeting at Glasgow, and he believed
he wrote to the Duke of Gordon at the same time, or :.bout
the same time, to say that be was desirous to use every effort
ie his power to organize loyal and constitutional associations to
counteract what he conceived to be the.baneful influence of the
Liberal and Radical Associations which had become so gene-
ral in every part of the Kingdom—Associations which the Go-
vernment of the day refused to put down. As the letters he
had read—which were all that had ever passed between him
and Colonel Fairman—were dated- in 1832 and 1833, he
thought that their Lordships, and even the Noble Viscount
(Melbourne) opposite would admit, that there could be no pos-
sible connection between them and the alleged project for al-
tering the succession to the Throne, which was not supposed to
ire been entered into until 1835.—( Hear, hear.) Colonel
Fairman's letters were produced, he. supposed, by the order
of the House of Commons, on the inquiry before the Com-
mittee appointed by that House to investigate the re-
portof Orange Societies; but their Lordships would ob-
serve, that the Honourable Member for Middlesex, in his
statement on that subject a short time since, in the other
House, declared that he had only obtained possession of his
( the Marquis of Londonderry's) reply to those letters a few
hours before he went down to the House and opened the de-
bate. Now lie begged their Lordships to look a little to the
It was fortunate,
anrtunyate, perhaps, that the Member for Mid-
dlesexfacts.
otherwise,t a n e e,
supposingt that letter
that ofth
there
into his possession ; because
had been no answer to Colonel Fairman's letter, the Hon.
Member in his usual liberal manner might have said, '6 Oh I