The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-29 00:00:00

e-
nt on the amendment which had been moved by his Noble Friend
r( h
t e Earl of Roden) ri.posite, an instruction to the Committee, " that
tl-ey should limit the relief to be afforded under this Bill to orphans or
persons of tender age, and those who from age or bodily infirmity were
unable to support themselves."
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that, as the question had not
been put, it was not competent for his Noble Friend to adopt the course
he had taken.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON did not think an amendment could be
moved on an amendment by the rules of that House.
Viscount MELBOURNE believed it was not an unusual course in
the other House of Parliament, but the inconvenier.ces resulting from
it was that no one knew on what the division took place.
Lord HOLLAND considered the course taken by his Noble Friend
clearly irregular. The two amendments must, to be in order, relate to
the same subject matter, which was not the case here.

Lord KENYON suggested that the way to get rid of the difficulty
would be by withdrawing the first amendment.
After some further conversation as to the form of proceeding,
Iho Earl of RODEN withdre A his amendment.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE then proposed his instruction by
way of amendment to the original motion.
Lord ELLENBUROUGH thought that as the motion of the Noble
Marquis applied to the 41st clause, it would be time enough to make it
when they came to that part of the Bill. Perhaps it would remove all
objection if the 41st clause were first proceeded with, postponing the
preamble and the other clauses until the motion of the Noble Marquis
was decided.

Earl STANHOPE suggested that the more convenient time would
be to go into the question on the clause being put.
Lord LYNDHURST thought the better way would be to come to
the 41st clause at once, to v. hich the motion of the Noble Marquis was
intended as an amendment.

Some further conversation then ensued, the result of which was that
the Marquis of Clanricarde consented to withdraw his amendment.
The 1-lou.e then resolved itself into Committee, the Earl of SitArrcs-
litlßV in the Chair.

On the question that the preamble be postponed,
Earl FITZWILLIA :NI did not mean to object to the postponement
of the preamble; but be rose because he thought that the fitting oppor-
tunity to state his views with respect to the alterations which their
Lordships ought to make in the Bill. The Commissioners who admi.
nistered the poor-laws in England and Wales were also to have the
management of the Irish poor-laws, but he doubted whether some
alteration should not be made in the preamble in this respect. The
Noble Earl then read the preamble which he should wish to substitute,
hut said that he would not press it at present, but content himself
with proposing an amendment to the first clause.
The preamble was then postponed.
On the first clause being put,
The Earl of WICKLOW wished to know from the Noble Viscount
opposite how this measure was to be carried into execution after the
powers of the Commissioners, which would, cease at the end of five
years from their appointment, had expired, and what security the people
of Ireland would have that those powers would be renewed at the end of
that time.

Lord MELBOURNE said that the measure would be passed in the
full confidence that the Commissioners would be continued beyond the
five years; and as to the security to which the Noble Earl alluded, it
consisted in the general approbation with which the conduct of the Com-
missioners was viewed by the country.—(Hear, hear.)
A Noble LORD denied that this would be any security, as
it was well known that there was a large body of persons in the
country who disapproved of the conduct of the Commissioners.

The Marquis of SALISBURY observed that as no term of years was
specified in the Bill it would seem as if the Commissioners were to be
perpetuaL
The Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that it was his intention to propose
the omission of the first clause, for the purpose of introducing a clause
to the following effect :—" Be it enacted, that the Poor-law Commis-
sioners for the time being shall be the Commissioners for carrying this
Act into execution, and that the Poor-law Commissioners shall be em-
powered, and they are hereby empowered, to form districts or unions in
Ireland, for the relief of the disabled and destitute poor, and that in
the formation of such districts or unions no regard shall be paid to the
present boundaries of baronies and parishes, except so far as convenience
is concerned, and that no town land shall be divided, but in all cases be
included in one or other of such districts or unions." The Noble
Earl said he did not agree with those Noble Lords who thought
that poor saws for Ireland could not be managed by the English Com-
missioners ; for his decided opinion on the contrary was that they were
the most proper parties to administer those laws, provided a subordinate
Board of Commissioners was appointed, who should sit in Dublin, and
be invested with full discretion, in all but extreme cases. He would
then propose that all the clauses up to the 41st should be postponed.
He would also substitute the word " almshouses" for " workhouses,"
and strike out the word " destitute" wherever it occurred before the
word " poor."—(Hear, hear.)
Lord FITZGERALD suggested that instead of " almshouses" the
word " poorhouses" should be inserted:

Earl FITZ WILLIAM had no objection to adopt the suggestion of
the Nobie Lord.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed that he was afraid that
the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam), whom he had hitherto looked upon as a
sincere friend of Ireland, was, from the way in which he appeared to
take up this Bii/, rather a snake in the grass.—(areat laughter.)
lie :the Marquis of Londonderry) considered this Bill to be one of
the most abominable measures that ever was introduced into their Lord-
ships' House.—(A laugh.)

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was in favour of discussing the
first clause at the present moment.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE hoped their Lordships would post-
pone the clauses up to 41 for the present.
Lord FITZGERALD then moved that the clauses in question should
be postponed ; and,
After a few words from Earl STANHOPE their Lordships divided,
when there appeared—

Contents.
Non-contents 4
Majority ---9
On our re-admission we found
Earl FITZ VITILLIA?4 on his legs, proposing the adoption of the word
" poorhouses" roc " workhouses."

The Earl of WINCHILSEA suggested that they should first dispose
of any amendment their Lordships might have to introduce respecting
the word Commissioners."
Earl STAN HOPE then moved to leave out all the words after the
word " that," and to insert words to the following effect That it
shall and may be lawful for the vestry of every parish to set to work, and
to relieve by a rate, all such persons as shall be unable to support them-
selves by their own industry."
A desultory conversation then arose as to which amendment should be
first disposed of, when
Lord BROUGHAM suggested to the Xoble Earl whether it would
not be better first to discuss the point as to the " Commissioners."
Earl STANI4OPEN amendment was then put, and negatived without
a division.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA then moved to strike out the words,
" three Commissioners."

After a few words from Lord KENYON, the Noble Earl, however,
withdrew his motion.

Earl FITZ WILLIAM then proposed to leave out the word "desti-
tute" wherever it occurred in the clause after the word " poor" ; to
change the word " workhouses" into " almshouses ;" and to insert words
confining the relief to the blind, the lame, and in the case of men of
of upwards of 50 years, of women upwards of GO years, and of children
under 12 :and giving the ratepayers the means of redress from the G car-
,dians, in any cases where they might have reason to complain that the
relief was wrongly applied, &c. The Noble Earl then proceeded to say
that he had the greatest objection to the principle of extending relief to
file 4.51 e-bodied. His firm belief was that the effect of this Bill would
he disAttrous to the people of Ireland, and on that ground it was that
Jae opposed it. His opinion was that the whole of the rate ought to be
placed on the landlord, and for this and the other reasons he had stated
app proposed the amendment.

Lord WYN FORD thought a man had as good a right to relief if his
.destitution arose from want of work as if it arose from infirmity. He
cooped the Government would be consistent in their proceedings, and he
avessald have great pleasure in giving them his support.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY would be much disposed to provide
in the Bill to connect the relief of the poor with the medical charities.
Noble Lords might not, perhaps, be aware of the extant of the medical
charities in Ireland. In the last year the sums raised for medical pur_
poses under the grand juries ccss amounted to 155,0001., and the
number of extern patients was 1,240,000, and the number of intern
patients 30,000. He regretted, therefore, that those charities were
net connected with the administration of the Guardians under the Bill.
Another amendment he would wish to have introduced would be a provi-
sion for foundling orphans, and he should propose the introduction of
such a provision. He could not reconcile the arguments of the sup-
porters of this Bill with the provisions of the Bill itself. Let not the
aupporters of this measure or the Government, suppose that they had
done all that was necessary because they had voted a Poor-law.—(Hear)
Let them take care that they did not produce consequences tenfold more
dangerous to the connection between the two countries, by exciting a
very excitable people to a degree much greater than any that at present
existed. ile had himself been desirous to propose an amendment to
0u , same effect as that of the Noble Earl, and having for its object to
iimi, ' relief to the aged and the destitute. He deeply regretted on this
occasi, on to he obliged to differ from the Noble Duke, who was himself
the suo.'t distinguished amongst the sons of that country, and whose
oninims on all subjects were entitled to the deepest respect. In conc:u-
Ln, it, et. treated them to pause befote they concurred in a measure to
which the fev,Thigs of all classes in Ireland were opposed, and which
position to them men of all creeds, parties, and po.
would unite in 41
jibes.—(Thee"-)
V' o rig 11FLI3OVRNE said there was no very great difference be.
isc u ~ -.
tween the amendment of the Noble Earl and the clause which it pro-
posed to amend # and if the danger from passing this measure in, its
present state was so great, he did not think that danger would be so
much averted by the pt. Posed amendment. The Noble Earl who had
moved the amendment had stated that wherever he went he had found
the strongest feelings of hostility towards this Bill existing. But the
Noble Earl should rec-llee that it was not a Bill calculated to be po.
pular, as it proposed restraint and enforced discipline. He doubted
e_ vhether, at the time when it passed, the 43d of Elizabeth was
yea`tmlar. But they were also charged with exciting unfounded
expectations amongst the people of Ireland. Now it was
leopessible that both accusations could be well founded, for
i, 'gibe amasure was unpopular it could not excite large expectations. 1
wa. `impossible that he could concur in the amendment of the Nobl
Lord:: lie thought that amendment highly injurious to the Bill. Th
amen. issiefvt proposed to deny relief to able.bodied labourers, and to co
tine relic (to the aged, sick, and impotent. The amendment appeare -.
to bins to hwve been what was originally intended by the 43d of Eliza.
betli, but they were obliged to extend this operation of that Act, and, if
that amendment Passed, they would• find it ittipoisible to carry it into
effect. He thongage was an absurd and an unjust criterion of desti-
tution, for some wen failed at forty, whilst others were vigorous at
sixty ; and, beside:this, he thought that the enumeration which
the Noble Earl hat; attempted would be found very imperfect.
He thought that iiving the Boards of Guardians ample
discretionary powers, an,l leaving them (..; apply the workhouse
test on their own responsibility, would ha the safest means
they could take for making the system work beneficially, and at the
same time guarding it against abuse.—( Hear, hear.) The report of the
Commissioners was certainly an able document # it contained a great
many highly valuable suggestions, but it recommended the formation of
establishments which could not, he feared, he carried into iffiest without
aucurring the risk of confusion. With respect to the clause now under
'consideration, he thought it n:ost prudent to keep it as it stood, arid
therefore he could not consent to aci.opt the amendment proposed by his
Noble Friend.
Lord BROUGHAaI had formed his opinion: from the speeches of two
Noble Lords opposite, and he must say up to the resent time their pow.
erful and convincing arguments remained totally jinanswered. He '
,might call the speech of the Noble Viscount what he ple.;;sed; but he
eculd not ascribe to it qualities to which it had no pretensions, It did
not contain a single shadow of reasoning which could be regarded ai an
answer to the arguments used by Noble Lords on the other side, and
yet, notwithstanding this, the Noble Viscount had arrived at a con.
elusion which lie was unable to support by argument.—(Hear, hear.)
he should, theref, be inclined
The subject was an important one,
and ore
to move an adjournment of the debate, for the purpose of enabling their
Lordships to understand both Sides of the question; for it was clear that
ahey could not do so at present, inasmuc has theyPerhap had heardtheir only the
s Lord-
arguments on one side.—(Hear, and laughter.)
ships were disposed to do as they had done on Monday night—to vote
one ,van while the whole of the arguments were the other. His Noble
NE w , and Leaned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) had been silent that night, but
e."l.\
ens left due were to bhe 4,„4,,,, the reason was that he did not think it worth his while to
jk.
_' si -
g0e2k.... his
..able speech of Xopday night remained unanswered. He
(Lard Ilrougham, thought Cr, tmoica. ' contract had been entered into
last time that the reacte pa_
:it up now, and he had se.
Cc/Winer expected to hei.,,:f some reasons advanced ~,, - their LordsliipS
~..., 0) ..t...

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