The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-30 00:00:00

BEER BILL.

Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from certain Clergy
and Magistrates (we did not catch the name of the place)
against the Beer Bill.
It was laid upon the table after a few words from Mr.
STRICKLAND, Mr. A. TREVOR, and Mr. HUME.
GAME LAWS.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from a person
of the name of Harris, and two others, who had been
convicted of poaching in Staffordshire, on the prosecution
of Mr. Littleton, complaining that Mr. Keene, the attorney
employed, was also the Under Sheriff, and had assisted in
striking the Jury. The petitioners were sentenced to
eighteen months' imprisonment and bard labour.
Mr. LITTLETON said that Mr. Keene waa bia family
!olicitor, and that he bad, perhaps, been incautious in this
instance, relying upon the known high respectability of his
character. The men had been taken armed, after a most
violent and bloody struggle, and they might have been in-
dicted under Lord Ellenborough's Act, which would have
risked their lives.
Mr. O'CONNELL also presented a petition from James
Shaw, convicted in Staffordshire, of an offence under the
game laws, complaining that his attorney had been turned
out of the room by the Magistrates, and that one of them
had offered a large bribe to a witness. This was accom-
panied by a petition from Thomas Jones, complaining
oc
the mode in which Special Juries were struck, and of the
impossibility of changing the venue in an action against
a Magistrate. He had recovered only one shilling when
be brought an action for turning him nut of the- room, al-
though the Judge bad certified and had e4presttati en epi~
nion that he ought to have had 2001.
Mr. LITTLETON bad never yet heard any complaint
that justice had not been done in that case.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from certain in-
habitants of the Union of Ragheen, in Queen's county,
complaining of the manner in which churches were built
and rebuilt in Ireland, at the cost of the Roman Catholics;
Sir J. NEWPORT contended, that the whole system
required change, and that the building of churches was
made a mere jot) in Ireland.
Mr. HUME said that the tithes and the mode of their

exaction were the most crying evils in every part of Irelat
They had occasioned so much mischief and oppsea.
that resolutions were come to in that country to restsStsi;
payment of them ; and he was sure that in asyerylittij
time it would be found that nothing but the bayonet oco'is
compel the Irish Roman Catholics to pay what certai"
must be admitted to be to them a very grievous imposts,
Mr. STANLEY had introduced a Bill connected stn't
thew subjects in the last Session of Parliament. 13°,
the Hsn. and Learned Member for Kerry then said tbl
the amendments proposed by that measure were so small it
,
to be really worth nothing, and that some parts of it we')
positive insults to the Roman Catholics.—(Hear,
Now he (Mr. Stanley) thought, on the contrary, that t""
Bill would effect considerable improvements in the 11°'
and would peeve highly beneficial to the Roman Catholic'.
But he met with so much opposition from Hon. Gentle'
men whom he would have expected to have given hi°
their support, that he was unable to carry the mea're
upon the dissolution ; and since the meeting of the Pre
sent Parliament there had been no time to introduce its.
Mr. T. LEFROY deprecated tho manner in scluch
some gentlemen were in the habit of referring to the
fairs of Ireland. The first breach, which that 1-10 t
would consent to, of that article in the Act of Union "/
which the rights of the Established Church in Ireland We°
declared and guaranteed, would be a leading measusel
the dissolution of the Union between Great Britain 01
Ireland.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the argument of the 11°P
and Learned Member for the Irish University, that
alteration of the rights and powers of the Establish ;
Church as settled by the Act of Union was a dissolution°
the Union, would prove that the Union had been alreadf
dissolved. For, since the passing of that Act, three
veral statutes have been enacted, altering indeed, but
creasing the powers of the Protestant Church. By one°
those statutes Catholics were excluded from voting at s'e;
tries, and allowed only to attend them and remonstrate
protest against the decisions of the Protestants.
what was the result of this exclusive system ? The veal
of the parish of St. Andrew in Dublin voted a salary
400/. a year out of the parish funds to one of the curate
But a spirited individual refused to pay his portion of the
assessment, and determined to try the question at his 01
cost. The case was tried first before . the Recorder, 5°.,
afterwards in the Court of King's Bench, where it
decided that the vote of the vestry was illegal. But tlw
was not all : the gentleman who defeated the vestry halo
pay his own heavy cost out of his own pocket, and t
vestry threw upon the parish their own costs (2000';
that is, the costs incurred in defending the illegal Nat'l'
of the vestry itself against the parishioners. Nor Op
they stop there. They bad this year voted salaries, amour
ing to 300/. a year, to two additional Curates, notwitk
standing the decision obtained against them last Year
the Court of King's Bench ; and when the Catholic
rishioners remonstrated, they told them to make Wel
appeal if they liked. They knew the protection vibic
they had in their power to throw the expences of the 01);
peal upon the appellants, and the costs of the defence uP°
the parish at large.
Mr. CRAISIPTON regretted that his Hon. Friend (dler
Member for Kerry) should be induced to make hastY,l
exaggerated statements against the Established Chore
Ireland, especially as such statements had a very dangercit
tendency in the present state of that country. On u t
occasion he (Mr. C.) was able to correct the statente;
respecting the Vestry of St. Andrew's. The case
.ce,
this :—Two curates hail been appointed, and their serf'
were necessary on account of the extent of the par'',J
But the salary which they received from the Rector 1r
quite inadequate, and therefore, under an old Act of pits
liament, the majority of the parishioners had a right
give them additional remuneration.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The majority of the Protest's,
parishioners only.
Mr. CRAMPTON—The case mentioned by the g°'s;
Gentleman was never brought before the Court of
Bench, and he (Mr. C.) did not hesitate to say, thst
thought the Recorder had exceeded his power in the "e'
A
cision which he made against the Vestry.
~ft
Mr. J. GRATTAN was a parishioner of St. Andre-
and could undertake to correct the statements of the I°o
'Solicitor-General for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He etc
assure the House, that the statement of the Hon. 51eou",
for Kerry was perfectly accurate, and that there 14
found upon the parish books of St. Andrew's many q°oo
of the vestry that were decided to be wholly illegal. .$1
(Mr. Grattan) had resisted an assessment, and hales
acted under the advice of eminent Counsel, he obliged
gs
Clergy to abandon the advantages which the vestry ail
illegally given them.—(Hear, bear.) The Diesels
throughout Ireland complained as much as the Cat°
of the operation of the vestry laws.
iriTirA.lelimlCEbers,reomf itnhdeeadrrarnbgee.Heonutswe,hiaenhdhaedspbeeeeianllayg:il
to, that he should have an opportunity of voting some
the Irish estimates, which were very pressing. 1:4
Mr. O'CONNELL, in moving that the petition ,
printed, explained that he just now perceived that t,,
Sp
case which he had mentioned respecting the parish of,,A)
Andrew had been (as the Irish Solicitor-General stawe
decided by the Recorder, and not by the Court of
Bench. What had caused an errroneous impression 01)1°0,
his mind to thst extent was that the appellant was c."O
pellet to obtain a mandamus from the Court of P°o
Bench to compel the vestry to allow him to inspectd
parish books. But how did that alter the case, or els
any colour favourable to the vestry? Of the 2001. c'es
with which, as he had said, the parish was saddled, 1501
were incurred in supporting the illegal and unjust ref 10,
of the vestry to allow a parishioner to inspect the bon
THE CORONATION.
The SPEAKER had received his Majesty's comsn'-s
to inform the House that his Majesty had been pleas?"
ad
order that a gallery should be prepared in the Milled
Westminster for the accommodation of the Membell ts
the House of Commons at the ceremony of the Corns
tion, which is appointed to take place on the Bth ofr
appointed
eeapndmarpdLALys
(bii,oonriiertnrnertor.
dtot,t.i
impossible
ipiAduorirnu:n:lsi
naitir3TrobkreilfgdclullEkeeecifr
srooottf:hhniaßtßeorfnrecrpypprot appeared to his Majesty that it w're
be inconvenient for the House to take any part in the
be
ot
nse. tit
ceedings upon that occasion.
ethliedwiritexe
creietipopl
:Members
Lhviieebtd,
etb
eslyt, leri3oas
iftcuoNjofvaesmte
Westminster,
I:a:its:it:nest:out Committeeuerwvrse.eoyuiSurveyor
oonsl tir
subject of the accommodation that it might seem n,`",s/
his eied in saon indistincting. wr e asutpoppoes,eitb,,bioill,
to say that an estimate should be laid upon the tsb7e,(s
morrow, and that the attendance of the Members in 1' ce,
minster Abbey would not occasion any additional e%Pelissl.l,
Mr. Alderman WOOD had hoped that Ministers "',Ol
have allowed him to proceed with the second readiii'si
the Bill, which stood first upon the orders of the days
meant to send it to a Committee up stairs. sstc
Mr. WILKS said that the Hon. Alderman oug'
have some period fixed for the discussion of the Bill. old
Mr. BERNAL said, that if his Hon. Friend suPP-sol
that he could carry the Bill sub silentio, as it were,
without discussion, he was greatly mistaken. Man). 'e'
Members were determined to give it their decided '',Pdee
sition, and he could assure the Hon. and Worthy it'Ate
man that the Bill would neither be sent up stairs ass wriip
ter of course, or be carried at two o'clock in the moral,
Mr. IRVING said that the great body of thoseli,
fleeted with the steam-vessels were opposed to the 13,:05,
Mr. LITTLETON postponed the Wages' Bill toil
day, the 12th of September>
IRISH ESTIMATES.
The question being put upon the order of the dal
going into Committee upon the Irish Estimates. ssi'
Mr. Alderman WOOD rose to reply to the observat,
made by. his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bernal.) the
Mr. RICE rose to order. The question befocete
House did not relate to the Worthy Alderman's Bill,
bn
the Irish Estimates. ssOli
Mr. Alderman WOOD had a right to Fees s"" sor
on them, in order that it might not have to be disetaa
at two o'clock in the Morning. But he should not at'eps
as he wished to avoid harrassing his Majesty'sGovernt" Jai
He begged to ask, however, whether or not they inter'
to support the Bill ? tie
Mr. P. THOMSON was not prepared to answer
question until the Bill came on for discussion.
lase
Mr. ROBINSON wished to ask whether Dl'llisoo
were apprised, as be was, both from Portugal and, et
well-informed persons in this country, that the trr-
were not contented with obtaining satisfaction r
aggressions of the,Portuguese Government, 'set Ives.: eivat'
vouring to obtain, by treaty, certain Commercial
tages inconsistent with the'interests of this country
The reply of Lord .Arafroar was wholly inaudibl,e')l
Mr. RICE then moved for a grant of 5,500/. t°,"sSl'
the expences of the Royal Dublin Society, for the Year
Mr. LEADER W.ished to make some observations )011
the reduction made in the grant to that Society., 001
had been a member of it for twenty-nine years, Pejcecor
bear testimony to the important advantages it l'z'slosi
ferred upon the arts and manufactures of Ireland.
consequence of the reduction of the grant, its Te3lo;e
promoting the improvement of the arts were greatly ni,sl,
Malted ; and 'already the lectures in several deP'rtissi°
had been necessarily abolished. If the reduction w`„stl'
be continued from year to year, the institution roust' e
tually, be shut up.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to !mow, bad the socicti

at it
striae 1
I. 1.'16

the • • sdations of the Committee
ya„._totnph _ I et.•°muse!
,sru" the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates in 1829 ? That
ulangat.other things, had they thrown open the ad-
rotaston members with the ballot ? They could have
4th his (Mr. O'Connell's) money as well as that of many
''
a `l.• gentlemen, twenty years ago, if they would condo-
thend to take it.__(llear, hear.) He had been proposed
Preine,',,a°4 his admission had been seconded by his Hon,
la-`13' the 'aletnher for Kilkenny ; hut he was black-
liaa'n.---(Hear, and a laugh.) He thought it was ton
that they should come to Parliament for money, when
theywould make no effort to obtain it at home. For his
Part, he was ready to give them his twenty guineas any
iade'i,e4 an experiment to see how they could support the
onptt-naution from subscr'iptioas, if they threw the Society
--(Hear )
Alt A•
•
the A. LEFROY thought that the Society deserved
muliPort of the House.
bey fr' RICE said that his Right Hon. Friend the Mem-
sa4 .4 Kilkenny obj-cted to the grant as being too small,
all. thi,:11"0. Member for Kerry objected to any grant at
mania'olv be (Mr. Rice) thought that the middle course
Far hi be the best—that is, to agree to the present grant.
ts a "It Part, he should be willing to give a larger support
to Societ having for its sole object the advanc-
a'tacf arts and y manufactures in Ireland. But he did
ss'atuink that a Society, conducted as if it were private
p,ritlelusive property, had such strong claims. The e-
Soerteeen4 of making a charge for lectures at the Dublin
fur Y had been tried, and without success. The charge
far the mineralogical course was as low as 71. ilk, that
laoelm,3t4llY 71. 55., that for experimental philosophy, the
44:attractive perhaps of all, was 211. 10s. ; and
.the
o tht 'bowed either that the lectures were not interesting,
fat at there did not exist a sufficient demand in Dublin
t-or matters of that kind—at least, that the demand was
at:41,4,11as to justify Government in reducing the proposed
leas "Y asnm of 1,500/.—especially as the original grant
W jlaade upon the assumption that the local contributions
be considerable.
411(1 1..
eR. GORDON approved of the reduction made,
a
cleat witessed an earnest hope that his M ijesty's Govern-
ould carry the principle still further.
Qo's(er; RICE said, that the reductions which the present
toasta-"tent were engaged in bringing about, were to a
litaiti :able extent those which the former Government
eoii„,,ed, together with some others which the Finance
tor Co:44'e recommended. Thus, for example, the Char-
otket,t'-"°°la had been reduced to 5,000/. ; next year it was
kat th'-' that they would be brought as low as 3,0001. ;
Inapt Year after the grant abolished altogether. The
Witt' '':)t the Foundling Hospital, he expected, would like-
Akylueeoe, as well as that for the Richmond Lunatic
clitteln• The Marine Society, he could assure the C. sun-
oesactra' would be conducted upon principles of the strictest
arlq,'y, and such as lie trusted would render the grant
h%da""tY for the future. The Royal Dublin Society
to e.,"lredlleed to the extent of 1,500/., so as if possible
rosa.44°et the amount paid by Government nearly corn-
thilr'te with the sum arising from local contributions.
tatdee Nice and the stationery, large reductions would be
Ftith',l4nd in the Irish Office in London, his Right Hon.
oileaua the Chief Secretary for Ireland was carrying con-
e reductions into effect.
Leara. HUME was sorry to hear from his Hon. and
ag ed Friend, the Member for Kerry, any complaint
14,14 rt the reduction made in the grant to the Royal Dub-
' totattkietY ; it was a mere club, and of the narrowest and
Itave:lei"sive kind—it was a party club, got up anti pre-
bf a,44 a pleasant lounge—he would not say for the heads
kleae•"tatige party, but for the great Protestant ascend-
lbs'coPev,°Pl! in Ireland. The facts were so strong before
40a, aainittee, that the then Hon.! Member for Derry,
',l.4a,taue Right Hon. Member for Harwich, was himself
tag kV: admit that there was great difficulty in obtain-
k4t 7 'ion into that club. There was also an import-
triLt, which he hoped would not escape the attention
for a'e House; namely, that the public paid nine pounds
IfIct:11.1"Y one that arose from the individual subscriptions
establish ICE did not approve of any exclusiveness in any
Af,-"tnent supported at the public expence.
Ni,ana'" a few words from Sir John Burke, Sir John
the r"tti Mr. Wyse, Mr. Henry Grattan, and Mr. Shea,
441‘'tte of 5,500/. for the Royal Dublin Society was put
liiagreed to.
A t 4"t was 3001. for the Royal Irish Academy.-
0111001' to.
. for the Board of Charitable Donations and Bequests.
'I4Per,r;,°'CONNELL said, that as the public paid the
`" of the Board, it ought not to be confined or
apa
kr-a in its operation.
ICE, though agreeing with the Learned Member
totlute--Ys that the Board ought not to be close, yet he
,750/1„"1"ot observe that the sum paid amounted only to
saeceed'„,,tue present estimates, and the Commissioners had
ttLe-`" in recovering for charitable purposes a sum not
4, 5(111 230,000 i.
4 Wari,h'-''()ULBURN defended the. Board, and pronounced
114—„e,ulogiuni upon their exertions.
Lail a„" CONNELL said that the late Irish Chancellor,
If a -i'anners, had made a decision which had the effect
clOsl,st'4ring that Catholic were as valid as Protestant. be-
lt that' lie then wished to see some Catholic Clergymen
Board, though he did not desire • that -they should
kyr' II
salaries.
Is-
tioa„-• tHialE wished to know. if additionAal.tCiptna'r.
'isia -I could be appointed without a new of
Alniant
air' RICE was understood to reply that they could not.
to lat.* O'CONNELL said that the addition of fifteen lines
tat" Administration of Justice in Ireland Bill would
,Wer all the purposes required.
kt.it.le. RICE thought that the further consideration of the
matter ought to be postponed.—Vote agreed to.
te,411 next was 1,5001, for the Belfast Academical Insti-
qua.
fk%i‘ttf; RUTHVEN stated that the inhabitants of Bel-
aea(r largely contributed to the maintenance of the
ih "nY ; and it was worthy of observation, that those
tkr :i(istliti i4p,ott.hilo,e gznsesihad increased in consequence of the reduc-
..
itr ant effected by his Hou. Friend tbe Member'
HUME said that the grant to the Belfast Academic
tetitie ttlti°° Was one of the few grants which met with the
aftapprobation of the Committee.
!Ns; O'CONNELL and Mr. WYSE both bore testimony
the a-resPectability and usefulness of the establishment, for
e of which this grant was intended.
liat%,-,RICE then moved, " That a sum not exceeding
41‘a-ti'l• be granted to defray the expellees of the Board
1144 in Ireland."
they h
th that there was an apparent saving of 3,400/., but
4'lia LW been obliged to pay out of that a sum of 1,1091.,
o at si
Ito 'e real saving was only the difference between
ntliixe
Pao sale
and the other. In the works at the Pho3
4 • oa. „aonsiderable saving had been effected by his Right
krariend the Chief Secretary.
otiaitsltisi'ary hoped that the office of Lord Lieutenant
Air dispensA with.
''CONNELL said, that such a change as that
atvcertainly bring about a repeal of the Union,
ke
t el:al Hon. Members rose ; but
.I)4ICE hoped they would not go into the question
4% ta -bicn. He could assure the Committee that it
'
ttaa), e intention of his Majesty's Government to sweep
tit}, asuch as possible of the unnecessary parts of every
„estaalishrnent,
i lin t"'AIE was persuaded that the great mass of the
sa a"nt Portion of the people of Ireland desired to put
11/r• to the ofllce of Lord Lieutenant.
I,:tt fu C.llO observed tha; they were flip upon a cial
wori, t defraying the expenses d the 13oard of public
l'aLs-Vote agreed to.
I !to(' noXt vote was 30,419/. fur the salaries of the Chief
110611 "et' Secretaries' and for the expenses of their offices
&c.
I'4oo/')4el SII3THORPE recommended a reduction of
M the salary of the Chief Secretary.
I ;441,•a .
: SPRING RICE said, that this was one of the
%ohnaitted to the revision of the Committee up-
ttlhet a'utrTd the pomF_lttee thought that_ thist salasvans.
.e than adequate to the ctutsea and 11!, expenses,
'fart .
f:4 .",-,LBURN said the salary was not more than
'5,%;'r,1-"ltitt and he was afraid the
.reductious made by the
Is•Nr, bent in Ireland were carried too far. '
,", UME knew what might be expected from the
t►'°, °)y i'`°l'a Gentleman, but he was persuaded the
The Government would promote the public see-
-e was persuaded Government deserved the highest
tete the reductions it had made.
„ithiI;`I;CONNELL was of the same opinion as the lion.
411 i\l'd and :ass sure that the superannu-
It' °I " 'e2"
' • to
eta '.'orne of the bfficeis would be of great service 4ntry.
tfa-gola 10Y took the opportunity to eulogise Mr.
Iseisaf.) the late Tander-SearetarY in 4elimer. A moor?.
ot, ; PUhlic servant never served any Government.
was the opinion of S r Anthony Hart.
to; Who -•°NNELL was glad to hear this, as it showed
400., ',ad been the adviser of Sir A. Hart, in relation
%114'ng the Magistrates in Ireland. He considered
teialeg *as a complete partiaan, and he was glad he
al -ow,
tt 4. a. Q,l iron, office.
`.4ILBURN said the Hon. Member himself was
1,114 at tattislied partizan, and Mr. Gregory, though a par-
it tvet Buff dpolitical opinions to influence his
Itliat'inducCert • P
I:).e()NIVELL said that the Government of the

of th`
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ry had"
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,
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so'et,
the

Right Hon. Gentleman was not impartial. Mr. Gregory
was impartial, like the Marquis of Limerick, who said that
he was perfectly impartial, for he had quartered as many
soldiers as possible on the Catholics, and as few as possible
on the Protestants. The Government of the Right Hon.
Gentleman had employed large sums of money to pay as
venal a Press as ever existed. He admitted he was a par-

tizan ; he had been made one by his situation ; but he was
not therefore fit for a public situation. He knew that, and
wanted no public office, and any Government which ap-
pointed him to one would do wrong.
Mr. SPRING RICE deprecated anything like a dis-
cussion on personal character. The question before the
Committee was a vote for a sum for public service.
Mr. GOULBURN thought he was justified in defending
his personal friend.
Lord ALTHORP said his Hon. Friend (Mr. Spring
Rice) had not wished to censure the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He had had an opportunity of defending his friend,
and it would be better that the discussion should now drop.
After few words from Sir H. Hardings, Colonel Co-
nolly, Sir J. Newport, Sir George Murray, and Mr. Lain.
bert,
Mr, SPRING RICE said the time was come, when the
House was pledged to go into the motion of the Hon.
Member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler.)
After a few words from Mr. GouLuunw, the vote was

agreed to.
The resolutions were ordered to be reported, and tho
House resumed. The Chairman reported progress, and
was ordered to sit again on Monday next.
THE POOR OF IRELAND.

Mr. SADLER, in bringing under the consideration of
the House the state of Ireland, and in attempting to per;-
suade the Members of the Legislature to adopt some
measures for the prevention and the cure of those evils with
which its population had for centuries been afflicted, com-
menced by observing, that although he m :de the attempt
often before, he could not avoid feeling that on the present
occasion he made it under more favourable auspices, and
with well-grounded prospects of ultimate success. One
circumstance connected with the agitation of the subject
was particularly cheering. It was free from everything
connected with party. They were at liberty to discuss it
without exciting any of their passions or prejudices, which
unhappily were mixed up with other questions ; and they
advanced to an examination of the arguments on, as it
were, a friendly and neutral ground. One point, he might
premise, was so plain, that it required no effort of language
to enforce it. That was, that the poor had a right to re..
lief for their necessities out of the surplus property of the
rich. This right was as inalienable and as clearly esta-
blished as the right to the possession of property it-elf. It
was supported by the authorities of the greatest men of
the country who had written on the subject; but with-
out fatiguing the House by a repetition of their names
and opinions, he would sum up all by reminding them
that it was the father of English philosophy, the great
Locke himself, who, in discussing the rights of pro_
4erty, observed, that it was founded on the nature
of things, and that God had not intended to leave
one man at the mercy of another, but, on the con-

trary, gave him a pressing right to a share of the
surplus of his wealthier neighbour. The laws which
protected property were most severe ; most severely, too,
were they administered ; and he would ask how they could
reconcile it to themselves to place the first law of pro-
perty and the first law of nature in irreconcileable hos-
tility? In every country on the face of the earth, and at
all periods since the commencement of civilization, pro-
perty was guarded by laws, but the poor were at the same
time provided for and protected. In Greece, in Imperial
Rome, in Carthage, in China, in every country where ci-
vilization had made the slightest progress, laws were to be
found for the protection of property, but at the same time
relief was administered for the effectual support of the,
poor; and the great moralist of this country, and he
might add, of the world, had expressly declared that he
considered a just provision for the poor as the true test of
civilization. Why then was Ireland to he an exception
to these rules ? Why was she to be excluded from
the ordinary rules of humanity and shut out of the
pale of civilization? Perhaps he might be told that
the distress of the poor there was not deep enough. Per-
haps he would be told that to afford them relief was im-
practicable. The extent of the distress be thought he
could place beyond question. He could not descend to
particulars, but be believed he could in a few short state-
ments prove enough to excite the sympathy of every
friend of humanity. All writers who had touched on the
state of Ireland, agreed in their picture of the poverty and
distress of its peasantry. Spencer, Dobbs, Sir W. Petty,
Swift—all were agreed in describing the poverty and misery
of the Irish to be unparalleled in Europe. If there were any
who had doubts on the subject, he would ask them to
look at the effect produced on the situation of the people
by the failure of a single crop. A misfortune of that kind
reduced the great mass of the people to the lowest state
of distress—famine and death stalked over the land—
hundreds of thousands of human beings perished, for it
was on them, not on the animals, the infliction fell. The
animals were preserved because they belonged to the rich
who could provide for them, but the people were left to
perish. To what then was this state of things to- be attri-
buted? There might still be found those who would deny
it in despite of all the dictates of common sense or the
lessons of experience, but lie would contend that much of
it proceeded from the evil of absenteeship—frorn the resi-
dence in other countries of those who drew all their wealth
and their enjoyments out of the labours of those to whose
comfort and sustenance they contribute nothing in return.
As long as the great landlord lived in the country he must
be something less than man if he saw so much distress
around bins and contributed nothing to its alleviation;
but the evil was this, that being removed from the scene
of horror, and running no risk of having his eyes wounded
or his feelings affected by the unhappy aspect of his ten-
antry, he easily reconciled himself to the continuance of a
system which brought him a large rental from his estate,
and listened with callous indifference to the details of
affliction which reached him, through his agents, while
the middlemen were permitted to drain the unfortunate
peasantry of the whole produce of their toil, and they were
forced to emigrate in crowds to find a market for their labour
in this country. It was the custom to say that the distress
of Ireland proceeded from excess of population. He de-
nied that. The distress was the same one hundred and
fifty years ago, when the population was little inure than
a million. Any one who took the trouble to consult the
works of Dobbs or 13olton would find it so, while the
owners of the soil were revelling in luxury in every ca-
pital in Europe. It was impossible to overlook one im-
portant fact—that the distress was of:perpetual recurrence
in Ireland, and that disease followed always in its train.
A century ago no less than 40,000 human beings were
carried off by the pestilence in a few months ; so that it
might be said every cottage in the country had at least
one corpse among its inmates. Again, without dwelling
on other periods, in 1817 the medical historians informed
them that 1,500,000 persons were affected by the epide-
mic which at that time accompanied the distress in Ireland
and which, it is well known, was aggravated in all its
symptoms by insufficiency of food, and the despair which
their misery produced ; for that despair rendered them
more open to infection, and gave the disorder a more fatal
character, there could not be a question. it was the duty
of that House to adopt some miassures to stay Use course
of the destroying angel, to step between the Hying and the
dead, and to take some more creditable and humane plan
of relief than any which was to be found in the passing of
a begging box annually through this country.--(Hear.)
Spch means of relief were inadequate t 2 the er-ul; and a
mockery of the situation of the people.—( hear, hear; hear. )
That in Ireland, a country fertile and healthy beyond
compare, the people perished peritidically from tire state of
misery and distress in which they were compelled to exist,
could be provpd hriond the power of refutc.tiop,, by the
examination of a few tables of figures, With which every
Member of the House was familiar, and the accuracy of
which ecoirl not be doubted. In the returns of the popu-
lation of 1821, there were two classes. One containing
those under forty years of age, and the other tlorze allove
it. Now in England he found that there were 8,600,000
persOris under ' the age of forty years, and 2,469,667 of
forty years and upwards. In. Ireland 'there Were
5,593,885 persons under forty years of age. £3ut bow
the
many did the
the same class in England bad been pre.
proportion of house stippor, ab'oye that age ?
served there would have bet:n.1,111,014, but on the con-
trary, there were only 1,199,815, so that half a million
had been cleared off by the effects of famine and disease.
To illustrate this further, he would take Wales, which
in
many points much resembled Ireland, and particularly the
province of Connaught:, tine roost rout the thinnest
peopled portion of the kingdom. In laVadlestbotlsiee
offorty
popula-
tion under forty years Were 503,770, n
years and upwards were 169,449: Now in Connaught
.110 bear the due
tale
hoopla un,Lp• forty we...e'
Ptopiortion to- Wales, the pOpulation of 'the other class
should have been 296,050 ; but what was the number
found to be ?—why 181,644. (Hear, hear, hear.) So
that in fact the return gave a difference of 126,000 in every
million, in favonr of the longevity of the people of
England. He had beard too, from good authority, that
the mortality, on a late occasion, carried off six in every
ten in the district where it raged. The House might con-
ceive the state of suffering and distress which such a state-
ment implied, and that too in a country which be was pre-
pared to prove to be as healthy and as fertile as England, if
its population were not subjected to the inflictions which

arose from inaproper or insufficient means of subsistence.
A General Officer; of some character, who had been much
employed in Ireland, had observed, in speaking of the
mortality among the people, that it was good to get rid of
them in any way; and if this was, as he (Mr. Sadler)
understood it to be, a general opinion--(No, no, from the
Ministerial benches)—then he would not say more on the
subject. He was glad to hear such a disclaimer, for it
vindicated all the arguments he had applied to the ques-
tion; for if something was not done to put a stop to these
periodical calamities, it would be better for their governors
to have recourse to the Spartan system of reducing the
number of the helots ; for, as Dr. Woodward observed,
with some truth, it would be better to adopt the [tidier'
custom of knocking out the brains of the people with
clubs, than suffer them to perish under the lingering
miseries of famine and disease.—(Hear, hear.) One
terrible consequence of the insufficiency of food in Ire-
land was the spread of that painful disease—lunacy—
which, all who applied themselves to a calm consi-
deration of the question, now admitted to be most
alarmingly on the increase. It was true that large sums
were devoted to the erection and support of hospitals for
the reception of those afflicted by it ; but how much
better—bow much more politic and humane would it be
to take means to prevent than to cure that melancholy in-
fliction. The consequence of the system pursued towards
Ireland was that they must become either stupid or despe-
rate ; stupid, it was found, they could not be made, for
ail classes of the people of that country were remarkable
for their shrewdness and ability ; but desperate they would
speedily become, unless the Legislature interposed its
power
to save them from the miseries they endured,
through the negligence or indifference of their natural pro-
tectors. Again be would ask, why was Ireland plunged
into so dreadful a distress as that which now oppressed it?
Was there anything physical in the state of that country
that caused it ? He thought not; and he was convinced, ,
in fair argument, that he could show that he was justified
in that denial. One re ison that was given for this dis-
tress was the excess of population ; hut lie could not
admit that as a reason, when he fiaind that the same dis-
tress had existed when the population of the country was
actually not sufficient to possess the land : there had
been a time when this was so much the case, that
exertions were made to tender the population more
numerous, and Sir William Petty actually recommended
colonization for that purpose. It was also a noto-
rious fact, that a hundred years ago, when the popu-
lation did not exceed one or
.two millions, the same
starvation as now was experienced, and collections were
made throughout the empire for the relief of the suffer-
ing poor. Others laid the cause of the pervading distress
of Ireland at the door of the minute divisions of the land
in that country ; but on actual calculation—one that de-
pended on figureealone—it could be shown that, throughout
the country, there were thirty or forty acres to every agri-
cultural family ; besides which, before this was tagged as a
reason, it would lie well for its supporters to look to. the
example of Flanders, where the population was much mole
numerous in proportion, the land much more minutely
divided, and yet where poverty and distress were scarcely
known among the agricultural population. Others con-
tended that the capital of the country was not sufficient to
find employment for the poor. With respect to this, he
was aware, that while absenteeism was allowed, it could
not he expected that capital would accumulate—(Hear)--
but still he would say, that a lack of capital was not the
real hindrance of the improvement of the people. The
great moral solution, however, of the distressed condition
of Ireland was, th it the population increased too much in
proportion to the capital. Now, he would not deny that
there was too little capital for the poor, but be did not
think that that was the case in general ; and if the House
would look back to former times, it would be seen how
much Ireland had improved in this respect. At the
end of the seventeenth century the capital of Ireland
was estimated at one million sterling; it was now esti-
timated at from fifteen to twenty millions. He would,
however, consent to tuke it at ten millions, though, perhaps
it was hardly just to his argument to do so. England, at
the time of which he had been speaking, was estimated
at fourteen millions—ten from land, and four from other
resources- The capital from land was now estimated at
thirty-five millions. Thus the increase in England had
only been at the rate of three and a half per cent., while
that of Ireland had been at the rate of ten per cent. ; but,
at all events, if the capital of Ireland was not sufficient for
its population, it only afforded a fresh proof of the neces-
sity that there was to bring the system back to that of
sound policy and enlarged benevolence.—(Hear, hear.)
The argument of others was, that the condition of Ireland
could not be remedied, on account of the indolence and
improvidence of the people ; but he denied the fact totally.
The truth was, that the circumstance of the involuntary
indolence of the people had been noticeable from the earliest
period of history. Both Davis and Petty spoke of this,
but attributed it to the abstraction of the wealth of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) And how, lie should like to
ask, could any one say that the Irish were an idle people,
when they were found travelling throughout England in
search of a few weeks' employment ?—(Hear, hear.)
Were they not even willing to undertake that labour from
which others turned with squeamishness ? Were they not
to be found in the depths of the mines—at the bottom of
sewers ? Did they not bear more hardships than slaves,
and live more sparingly than ascetics ? And when they
took their slender earnings home, well would it be if
they were made offerings on their domestic altars, in-
stead of which they were sacrificed to the demands of
an absent landlord.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He need not
disguise his opinion as to what remedy was necessary for
Ireland. What that country wanted was a well-digested
system, which should support indigence, encourage labour,
and bring forth the energies of the country. There was,
however, one difficulty which he believed every body con..
tetnplated—even those who were well disposed towards the
introduction of Poor Laws into Ireland. It was imagined
that the people were so degraded, that their poverty was
so extensive, and that their situation was so hopeless, that,
in point of fact, an attempt of this sort would only involve
the country in worse ruin than that which already threat-
ened. He knew that it would be difficult to meet such an
objection as this ; and he therefore trusted that the House
would permit hint to call to its recollection the condition
in which England was in the time of Queen Elizabeth,
when the great Statesmen of that time resolved on giving
poor laws to this country ; and he thought, that when the
House heard this statement, it would arrive at the con-
elusion that the state of things then in England was far
worse than the state of Ireland was now. When the
bounty that flowed from monastic institutions ceased by the
suppression of the monasteries themselves in the time of
Henry VIII., distress throughout the country became ex-
treme. Sir Thomas More, in alinsiao to thie, said,
Therefore ie it that one coyetoua and insatiable cormo-
rant, and very plague of his native country, may compass
about and enclose many thousand acres of ground within
one pale or hedge ; the busbandmen be thrust out of their
own, or else either by covin and fraud. or by vieleas op.
pression, they be put betide it ; os Py Wrongs and injuries
they be so wearied,'that they be compelled to sell all. By
one means, therefore, or by other, either by hook or by
crook, they must needs depart away—poor, silly,
wretched souls! Men, women, husbands, wives, Wiser:
less children, widows, weecei mothers with their young
balite, and the whole household, small in substance and
touch in number, as husbandry requireth the many
bands. Away they trudge, I say, out of their known and
accustomedislo,
es,
eahoiidds:llll,ieffo
,ualsavelbs:i;c fihynieidsi i
vnt)eglyngo; i
tspitill
:tli c(leveg: t resth,ti
tii(i);;II aiitl their
might
y thrust our, they
be constrained to sr-11 it as a thing of nought. And when
they have wandered abroad till that be spent, what can
• they then do but to steal ; and then justly, paedie, he
hanged, or else go about e-beeg',ng f And ' e ct then, also,
they be east into Priadn as vagabonds, because they go
about and work not; Whom no men will set at work,
7 though they never so willingly prefer themselves thereto."
Strype and Hollinshed also bore testieeeeei to the Seine
effect. Under these 9;reetossanees, What did Lord Bur-
, leigh dictate, and' What did Lord Bacon achieve? They
would, perhaps, have been justified, under such circuee-
stances, in saying that they could malee no provision for
the pony; hot even these circometancee doubt not Make
• them slacken their herecijolere't endeavours, for lifter; try;rig
volunt4ry'esSista'nce and othey reesraeuree, they proceeded
to pass that esslebeated law which, with all its imperfec-
t tionse was one of the most exalted exhibitions of human
benevolence that had ever been displayed in any country
or by any nation.--([Tear, hear.) But it 'fag aaid, that
even if Poor Laws for Ireheteel vet:: eranted,'lt would be a
digice,lt tesii to Mid eniployment for the poor. This part
(tithe subject, however, appeared to him to be the easiest
- ofoir
wereed offered
es
dpfiotihaeel . The hills, the rivers, the reeiees ef retry
country, appeared to offer ceapleftoeut on the grandest scale
--Ow oppcveck to missed opportunities for lab Our, waiting
be undertaken ; but, above all, the wastes of Ireland
to
tinheth rooflifiac,.efiseold
;coarsteeinlapnlodre
m trillionsst P
poorewl) ire
would. be;linelr'elanitill,eroef
which it was eeleeleted, on the 'most autlientie'infOrma•
tion, that 2,500,000 acres were among the most fertile sell
Let
immediatelythe ln be
supplied.cultivated,
uttime, np•earnhtaspos
,f
it might be asked, were there any markets at which such
produce could be disposed of? He thought that if lion.
Gentlemen would refer to the - • •
quantities of various commo-
dities that had been exported from Ireland in the course of
the last.year, they would soon see what capabilities in that
respect offered themselves; and it was not difficult to un-

del 'stand bow those resources might be improved as soon as
Ire land had the power of acting on a more enlarged system
of policy. Another point worthy of observation was, that
in proportion as this country received fresh supplies from
Ire land, in like proportion would increase tl e demand fur
oat • produce, by which means the looms of England would
fin d incitement to fresh activity.—(Cheers.) But it was
I that there was no machinery in Ireland to carry so
grt •at a plan into execution. He had already shown that
•re was far more power in Ireland than there had been
itx England,at the time of the introduction of the poor laws
intf r this country.; and when it was found that there was
mad ahinery enough ready fOr every act of oppression and in-
just ice, to say that there was not enough for the purposes
of I renevolence, was an insult—not upon Ireland--but upon
but nan nature.—(Hear.) But the grand machinery th..t
war in motion for the purpose of effecting this object was
the extension of education in every direction ; formerly the
peo pie of Ireland were in a lamentable state of ignorance and
deg radation ; but now it was calculated that nine out of
evi_!ry thirteen were in a course of education; indeed lie
'night say generally, that the very attempt to establish this
plo n would of itself be the means of establishing the machi-
ner y.—(Hear.) He meant to have combatted at length one
of •the most obvious objections to his intended proposition—
viz, , that individual charity would supply the wants of
the poor—but he would only make one or two remalks
upa n the point; and the first was, that the experience of
centuries showed that the Irish population should no
lorn ;et. lie left to the mercy of individuals, many of whom,
he fairly admitted, were not capable of contributing largely
to. She relief of the poor. The demands upon distant pro-
prie tors of the soil might be said to have produced nothing.
and the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, when adverting
so ably to the condition of the peasantry of G Away, had
allowed the vanity of any appeal to the richer and more
influential orders. In the diocese of Limerick no more
than 901. hail been obtained by application to most of the
rsssidents of the greatest wealth and consequence. He
b tlieved that the introduction of poor laws into Ireland
would be an economical plan ; first, because the effect
would undoubtedly be to increase the value of property ;
and, secondly, because the large sums now raised nominally
for the employment of the poor, but in fact spent upon
jobs to enrich those who were already too rich, would he
entirely saved. Here, too, he might notice the interests
of the labourers of England, for he totally disbelieved those
who argued that the result would be that not one Irish
labourer less would visit this country. The natives of Ire-
land would be loth to quit their native soil and incur the
perils of a sea voyage if they could get anything like adequate
employment at home. The poor Irish, who were driven to
'England by stress of poverty, were not the most culpable
absentees, although so much ignominy was sometimes
heaped upon them. However, he raid not rest his proposi-
tion upon selfish considerations only ; he appealed to the
House to adopt it on the grounds of justice to Ireland.
The subject of a provision for the poor of Ireland at an
early date had occupied the attention of the Legislature—
just after the revolution it was under discussion, and it
was again recommended to consideration early in the suc-
, ceeding century, until, on Nov. 20th, 1771, the Irish
House of Commons unanimoustly adopted a resolution,
" That it is the duty of Parliament to snake such regula-
tions as may relieve the real poor, and suppress the nui •
sauce of begging." It would be unpardonable to omit
the recent efforts upon this subject by the Hon. Member
for Wicklow (Mr. Grattan), who had done himself so
much honour by his efforts on behalf of his impoverished
countrymen.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Sadler) was satisfied
that no time ought to be lost in adopting some measure
upon the subject. The natives of Ireland were most sus-
ceptible of kindness, and if the concession were now made,
it would be accepted as a boon and an act of grace. If it
were postponed, it might be claimed and extorted as a
right. They would now he grateful for what they might
hereafter demand. Should the House by its vote affirm
the necessity of making a provision for the poor of Ireland,
he should be prepared, either before a Committee or other-
wise, to submit the features of a plan to accomplish the
object. He earnestly hoped that the House would attend
to the rights of the poor, and learn " to do justice and to
love mercy."—(General cheers.) He concluded by read-
ing the following resolution :—" That it is the opinion
of this House that it is expedient and necessary to institute
a legal provision for the poor of Ireland."
Mr. STRICKLAND complained that the Hon. Mem-
ber had dwelt too much upon the general question, and
had not with sufficient minuteness pointed out the mode
in which he proposed to carry his plan into execution ; he
was thus reminded of an observation, he believed, of Lord
Holland, that it was easy to describe the distresses of the
poor, but very difficult to suggest a remedy for them. He
bad listened with the greatest attention, but in vain, to
learn what was the plan of the Hos. Gentleman—in what
respects he meant the poor laws of Ireland to differ from
those of England—and by what safeguards he would avoid
the evils experienced in this country. The late Mr. Whit-
bread had truly said that it was a physical impossibility to
provide for the whole labouring population, and it was,
therefore, necessary to confine relief to the sick, lame, and
impotent. He admitted that to introduce a regulated
system of poor laws into Ireland would be a great good,
but without proper regulations they would only multiply
existing evils. The endeavour ought to be raise the ideas
of the poor, and in order to avoid the necessity of parish
aid, to teach them to respect themselves.
Colonel TORRENS concurred in the principles so ably
stated by the Hon. Member for Yorkshire. He (Colonel
Torrens) was decidedly favourable to the introduction of a
modified system of poor laws into Ireland—a system by
which the majority of rate-payers is each parish should
voluntarily assess themselves for the relief of the impotent
poor, permanently incapacitated from earning their own
subsistence.—(Hear.,) But with respect to the other sys-
tetn advocated by the Hon. Member who introduced the
motion, he must venture to express his dissent. He had
given his best attention to the plan of extending to able-
bodied labourers, when wages were deficient, the right to
compulsory relief; he had endeavoured to view thia im-
portant question in all its bearings, and to trace it through-
out all its consequerwes ;
and the result of his deliberation
was an increasing conviction of the danger of rushing upon
a path whose termination they could not see, and from
whose windings and labyrinths ther.s would be no retr?:-.3,
He was surprised at the hasty and inconsidnraW rnanner in
which opinions upon important snlnecta were taken up and
promulgated. question of compulsory relief involved
all trlte mast important questions of political economy, of
social Government. The causes which detei'mincd the
ci
wages of labour, the profits of capital, the zot anki value
of land—all these were more, or less involved in the wide
and momentous tiesticn establishing a poor rate in
Ireland.,EHear.7 Yet, strange as it might appear, the
lion. Member advocated this measure without reference to
n.
the principles of that science of which it forme tlse ntost
important portion. Nay, it was a fact,--,a fact which the
next generation would cca.rne.y credit—.that lion. Mem-
bers would I
,fours denouncing and disclaiming the prin-
ciges o' 'political economy in the same breath with which
they proposed measures for improving the condKer.oZ tl4
people. The labouring classes comrocyd the great bulk
of every communityt a7d, r, country} must be considered
miserable 07 I„lappy in 'proportion as these classes were well
or ill supplied with the necessaries, comforts, and 4.j0y.-
inents of life. The study of political. es.onproy tec4llo.a
us the way in which labour ;rag oht4p, an adequate re:
ward : and if it ;lid not teach its this, it might, l"''.eed,
Itorioyio4euiturai
parishes
psuprepcousleastiovfe
practicalcuriosit curiosity, ,u t
lui
tty„ could
it
claims the peculiar attention of the benevolent amid good,
and thT.-eLy points out the means by which
mainly because it explains the which depress and
ate the distresi and improve the condition of '
ssecravilityo geroantdt:
to merelyy
:vlieeevil'agtraeelawinlnteaisig:iilY of mankind. Political ecepomy is not,
as has been erroneously stated, the appvopriate or exclusive
science of the. Statesman the Legislator ;it is empha-
tically of the people. The Hon. Member had '
eU,cultrbered and overlaid this question with a modtitude of
H". Member that our
details. He (Colonel T.) would ventnie to suggest to the
kzowlecip of statistics was la-
mentably itniiests Nye ‘haVe no very ao.cur;,te or cer-
tainand'aa to the n'swohiirs of the employed, partly ern-
-1)a
p,tol aitogether unemployed labourers in the several
of England. Now, if thus; facts,
;hid) are passing almost before our e.,x- es, have not yet
been sufficiently examired e,n;i ascertained, how uncer-
tain, how Lutv utterly unworthy of credence must
be t,1.; multitudinous statistical details which the Hon.
Sien,her has gathered from distant co,:ntilia and remote')
ages? But even if the Hen, liember had established his
alleged facts by tneT.cient 'eViderice, still lie would have
pe.:lo-,Jiied only half his task-. The faculty whi.nh accu-
rately observes and records particular ;:latQomena is widely
different from that which c!.i:Cinguishes between accidental
coincidetic!.! necessary connection. Facts, however
a;:,;:orately ascertained, may be thrown
toE-,:ther so as to
present a chaos of heterogeneous ana unconnected eleMent;
confounding the imagivaion, rather than enlightening the
understanding. Facts accurately ascertained Lein the
only foundation Upon which sound principles can be
erected. But in enabling us t.o judge of the future by the
past, facts are of little value until they have been arranged
and generalised, -and subjected to that inductive prose-s
which extends individual experience throughout the infi-
nitude of things, and imparts to human knowledge the cha-
racter of science. For these considerations he (Colonel T.)
did not estimate very
highly the Hon. Member's multifa-
rious statistical detail., hoivever laboriously acquired 'or

~:~~

oquently displayed. Without entering a labyrinth t,
f which there appeared to be no clew, be would apply him-
: self directly to the question before the House. He (Colon,'
, T.) objected to instituting a legal and permanent provisit it
for the destitute and suffering poor of Ireland, from ti,
conviction that this species of proeism, instead of reliev-
ing and removing, would aggravate and perpetuate the
misery of that country. It was acknowledged that the
population of Ireland had rapidly increased, and that it
was still rapidly increasing; and it could not be denied,
that as long as the supply of subsistence was increased by
compulsory assessments upon property, the progress of fyi-
pulation in Ireland would be accelerated. At no distant
period the whole rental of the country would be inadequate
to the maintenance of those for whose labour there was
no demand. Two shillings in the pound, or ten per
cent. upon rent and profit, to be levied by compulsory
assessment, and distributed to those who could not obtain
adequate wages—the relief which this would afford
would be immediate, but, unfortunately, it would be of
short duration. As giving a tenth of the incomes de-
rived from rent and profit in aid of the incomes der!ved
from wages could have no conceivable tendency to diminish
the number of births, or increase the number of deaths,
the people would c-ntinue to breed up to the extreme
limits of the most scanty subsistence ; and want and mi-
sery would inevitably return. If, on witnessing this re-
newal of distress, the compulsory assessments were raised
pfrxe
slso
,t‘o 2,,,u 01 d p ebre cernet. upon
repeated—temporary
a ted_ rentsteni p
raand ry profits,relie the
f would
isame
again afforded, and permanent distress would again re-
turn.—(Hear, hear.) If 30, 40, 50—nay, if 100 per
cent. were assessed upon the landed proprietors and capi-
talists, and the whole amount both of rents and profits
given in aid of wages, the process and the result, wit),
respect to the labouring class, would be precisely as before.
But although this system, which distributed amongst the
mass of the people not only all the rent of land, but also
all the profit of capital, could afford no permanent relief
to the working classes, it would inflict the greatest injury
and degradation upon the whole community. In the first
place, when a country possessed, in the form of rent and
profit, a considerable surplus revenue beyond what was
necessary for the subsistence of the population, it may,
when a deficient harvest occurs, export a portion of its
superfluities and luxuries in exchange for food ; and thus
avert the miseries of famine. But when, by means of
compulsory assessments, rent and profit, instead of ex-
isting as a net surplus revenue, are given in aid of wages,
when the people (as must inevitably be the case, should
the principle of population be uncontrouled) breed up to
the point at which the whole revenue of the country is ab-
sorbed in mere subsistence, then there cannot be by possi-
bility any surplus articles for exportation. This universal
poverty of the country must render the purchase of foreign
corn or other food impracticable; and every deficient
crop must lead inevitably to hopeless and unmitigated
famine. In the second place, this partition of lent
and profit amongst the people would very speedily de-
stroy all leisure, would put a stop to every species of
intellectual culture, and would confine each and all to the
business of providing for merely animal wants. Nat a
single mind would be left to cultivate the field of thought;
the progress of knowledge would be arrested ; nay, so far
from the human mind being, under such circumstances,
capable of further advances, the attainments already
achieved would speedily be lost; arts, literature, and
science would be no more ; and the darkest barbarism re-
turn.—(Hear.) This state of hopeless misery and uni-
versal degradation would be the natural and the inevitable
result of giving the unemployed poor a compulsory relief
from the landed capital of the country, supposing such
right were allowed to operate freely and unchecked. The
advocate for Poor Laws, established on the principle of
granting to the people a right to compulsory relief, con-
tended that such rights would not be allowed to operate
so as to increase the population, but, on the contrary,
would be so controuled and modified as actuilly to check
and controul the principle of population. It is maintained
that the necessity of providing for the wants of the people
would cause the landed proprietors to exert their power to
prevent the increase of the people, and to keep the supply
of labour within the limits of the demand. But what
did•this doctrine involve? It involved one of two things
—either a feudal system, under which the proprietors of
the soil should become irresponsible tyrants and the people '
abject and passive slaves, or else an agrarian system, under
which the people at large would be co •proprietors of the I
land, and contesting with its nominal owners the distribu-
tion of the produce.—(Hear.) Twenty years back, end I
this feudal system would be admitted to be impracticable;
to pursue the agrarian would bring us to the law of the
strongest—to the state of nature,,lo

" The good old rule, the simple plan,
That he should take who had the pow",
And he should keep who can."
_....(Hear,) If the Hon. Member would confine his pro-
position to introducing into Ireland such a system of poor
laws as would leave it in the hands of the majority of he
rate-payers to levy a poor-rate for the support ef the blind,
the impotent, and those permanently ince,p4ble of labour,
he (Colonel T.) should give such r, proposition his support
(Hear, hear)--but when he proposed to extend his
principle to the wht.le of the population, he (Colonel T.)
would take the liberty to tell him it would have the e4ect
of abrogating the rights of property, and thmty destroy
all the motives which stimulated to t 1.4 production of
wealth, and dry up the very sourcea whence charity was
derived.—(Hear, hear,) 'if they thus threw all into
common, who would found to cultivate the soil? Who '
would mite the produce whence all was derived a The
cyctem thus engendered was, in his opinic,;,,' destructive
of the principles of civilization—product:,;; industry would
cease, and the land be thrown back itiVl a desert state.
He (Colonel T.) sincerely admired the benevolence and
charity of the lion. AieMber who brought forward this
resolution 3 bqt he would venture to remind bins that te-
neyolc.nce and charity, when not under the 14W ance of
economical science, might become the itsvc.%.ntery instru-
ments of mischief, aggravating tho :ails they endeavoured
to remove, and resemblinz their effects those splendid
but baleful meteors,. which shed a deathful lustre on the
disorder they
Mr, :,:iA/SLElts.—Well, then it wattld clear the evils all
off,

Mr. ROBINSON thonghi Sault the two preceding speak
ern had totally failed to answer the arguments of the
Hoe, Moyer or' She resolution. He was inclined to agree
with the proposition of that gentleman, and ha thought
that if the House would affirm it, they should find no in-
superable difficulties to obstruct them in applying a remedy.
From his own observatiou he could bear testimony to the
frugality and ir.,,d;„-.4try of the Irish labourers. Witness
their arAnual migrations, which were occasioned by nothing
le,nt the desire to obtain employment, Whatever other
difficulties might be found in th.e. anticipation of remedies
to the distresses of Ireland., sane would originate from the
habits or dispositicns of the labourers themselves. Nothing
but the e'iLif.k.noe of the poor laws, with all their evils,
ca-,;:id have saved this country from beiug flaw in the state
in which Ireland was placed. He thought the exertions
of his Hon. Friend on thin subject highly praiseworth\;„
and he earnestly, e7;horted him to ;:erservere, fully larfieV-
ing that he. would retp at IP; distant peri.W.4 02a- fruits of
4iq benevolent labours. •
Mr. STIHrIaAND explai.ned.
T"7,1 ALTHORP wished to address a few woths to
the House on this important subject. The question which
had been started by the Hon. Gentleman opposite was one
of extreme diffisulty, and derseeving of the most serious
consideration of his Mojiaty's Government and of the
Leltislature. The Hon. Member had given a true account
of the condition of Ireland. He had truly stated, not only
that great distress prevailed at present in that country, bit
that extreme distress—..(anal he might almost say peed-
-1 fence occasioned by it)—prevailed tb.ere periodically.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Lord Althop) was sorry, indeed,
that he was not able, from his own knowledge, to advance
I the. least contradiction of the Hon. Gentletuan',.; statement.
I(Hear, hear.) But he must at the same time remind the
House, that on this and on otlte-a. subjects calculated to
excite greatly the feelings of the people, there was a peat
sip,toitt er
find
n d
liability to exagge;atiou ; if not as to the extent ar degree
of the tlit:t:ass, at least as to its progress..,Hear, hear)
and although it was quite true the,lia: the present moment
ilreland was in a state cf 'eery great distress, ye: that
country was, on tlle 'whole, in progress of iruproVement.
He thought '4es condition would appear, upon calm invest
t gution, to be now much bettai than it usually had been •
in former times.—(Heite, hear.) At the same time,
that comparative prosperity gave no. reason that they
should net look to the cause of the existing distress with
a strong wish to reliev,e, it, or that they should not
' apply their whole :marls to the discoveu of the proper
remedy.—fCiies of'.• Hear,. hear, hear.") But to, ex,
relief. The Hon,. -i';(entleman who
had truly stated that or,o of
aNaiate the nature and c,..csent of the distress could in
- contributesnpootkveaylast
cr . Robinson)t 'st. F
the causes, indeed the main cause, of all the distress
was the want of proatable employment far labour. In
that statement he (Lord Althorp) fully concurred ; and. it
seemed to him to be indubitable, that if by any means the
House could create such employment, it would at once re-
move the. distress.—(Hear.) But he confessed that he
had his doubts respecting the adequacy of the Ron. Gentle-
man's own plans, who, although he acknowledged that the
of England. was onftt for, Ireland, yet
llaiwis object to be the relieving of all those who could
profitable employment for themselves.
I
How did
the Hon. gentleman suppose that their compulsory sup-

port without employment could afford the means of cm-
. ploying them profitably ?—(Hear.) To him it seemed
I extremely doubtful that the measures intended to be pro-
posed by the Hon. Gentleman would tend much to relieve
the in
destitutefaetin
rceos eunntt r didistress
doyf
aI rellaarngde.
proThvisereionway,
roTvhiesri
oe
nwfaosr,
tthheatp
part of the population. There were in most parts of that
country hospitals and other institutions for the relief of
the distressed. There were, in effect, instruments by which
a more extensive, indeed an adequate, relief could be ap-
plied. He believed that the Legislature might avail itself
Of the means afforded by such.institutions, without having
recourse to anything like the poor laws of England.--
(Hear.) It was true that the Hon. Gentleman only called
on the House to affirm a general proposition ; but it was
impossible to accede to that proposition without know-
ing the details of the plan which was afterwards to be
submitted to the House. If the House acceded to the
resolution at present before it, without having first ascer-
tained that it could command the means of removing the
distress, it would give rise to an opinion in Ireland that
systematic relief had been determined on ; and if after-
wards it should appear that the plan yet to be proposed by
the Hon. Gentleman was not satisfactory, the Legislature
would have excited hopes in the country which never
could he realized. It had been said by the gentleman
who spoke last (Mr. Robinson), that the Hon. Mover was
by his perseverance upon that subject, gaining the confi-
dence of the public; and he (Lord Althorp) was reedy to
admit that the lion. Gentleman was shaking the opinions
of many who before were decidedly hostile to the introduc-
tion of any system of poor laws into Ireland. Although
that was certainly the case, and he had himself seen many
instances of change of opinion, yet he had met with ten
defined plan amongst . all the plans that had ken pro-
posed, which could be expected to lead to the permanent
benefit of the country. It was his (Lord Althorp's) opi-
nion, that the institution of poor laws in Ireland would
give an immediate relief; but that it would ultimately
preserve that country from the recurrence of the present
evils he very much doubted. He thought, therefore, that
it would be very injudicious then to relieve Ireland (and
England also, he would say) from difficulties (which
equally oppressed both) by a measure which would sub-
ject them to future evils of greater malignity.—(Hear,
bear, hear.) They had been referred to the pros-
perous condition in which England continued for
so;long a period under the operation of the poor
laWs. But he would ask what was it that for so tang a
Cane preserved the country from many evils, which were
now felt with extreme force? It was that feeling of ho-
nour and independence which prevailed amongst the
labouring classes, checking them from applying for parish
relief, and which the alterations of the currency and the in-
creasing scarcity of the means of subsistence have at length.
to a great extent, diminished. That high spirit of inde-
pendence having been broken down, the poor laws became
more detrimental in their operation than formerly. But
he would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, es hetner there
was at present in Ireland that high feeling of independence
amongst the labouring classes, which would lead those
people to think that application for relief under the Poor
Laws was a degradation ?—(Hear.) But if that feeling
did not exist in great strength at the time of the introdu a-
tion of those laws into Ireland, it would be very difficult to
present them from leading to very great evils.-_( rear.)
Beaides, the Hon. Gentleman seemed entirely to 'overlook
the:difficulty of finding in Ireland the machinery for car-
ry* such laws in effect.—(Hear, bear.) He, were there
to ipe found in the severel parishes of Iralaesd, considering
thespresent state of education there, pereona capable of
executing the important trust which must be committed to
those who have to act under these laws ? Of all the nu-
tnerous witnesses who were examined before the Cemmittee
of inquiry into the state of the poor in Ireland, although
so many were favourable to the introduction of Poor
LaWs, only one could point out a means of find-
inge-nachlnery to put such laws in operation. Well, what
was the opinions of that witness? Why, that there must be
a Government office in every parish. Now, if the plan of
the,Hon. Gentleman who moved the resolution could only
be carried inta effect by Government interference in every
tvlatehlef:c.le:
folly
tawintoy established.ob fa d the, tadvantagesenliekiln.daslyne
ozetpo,encsite:ond:cf:r.te,
pedals of Ireland, he (Lord A.) should not give it his sup-
park,ti ihoa plann. Gn until
disposed to give a direct negative to the proposition of the
to
put it ok from day to day, for the purpose of accent_
tthbeHorues,e adaotp tth tei same am
me idtdileme i
jota hraset
,thbeyremsoolvuitnio:t,hien
medating him (Lord A.); and he, therefore, much re-
gretted that the details of the plan were not explained to
respect binding them to it, was proposed. He should,
erefo
o u smr. `'FEY
LAND
question,E psroemvie-
LAND (as we understood) was of opinion,
that if once adequate employment were provided for the
Irish people, they would not relapse into pauperism. If
ths'capital of that country were extended at home, it would
be sufficient to furnish ample employment for the people;
and it was his opinion that the poor laws would lead to that
result._—( Hear„ hear.)
SHEIL said, that between the application of poor
lank to large towns end to agricultural districts, there was
a great distinction. In a city like Dublin many of the
evils of an ,agrarian rate would scarely arise. There would
be found, in the first place, a committee of unpaid; of dili-
gent, and disinterested managetnent—the operation appre-
hended upon wages and rents would not, in asty large de-
gree, be produced. The assessment might lee compulsory,
but relief might be discretionary ; and that relief would
its all cases be so small, as not to afford incentives to im-
providence. The minimum for life would be the maxi-
mum of aid, Besides, if the experiment failed, the Le-
gislature might retrace its progress, the mischief would
not he irremediable, for the mendicity association might
he restored to its present amiable, but he was sorry to be
obliged add inefficient, relation to the public. in Dublin,
then, let the tentative process begin. Dublin had peti-
tioned for the power of relieving pauperism from want,
and benevolence from the burden of its exclusive sustain-
ment. This demand bad originated from the failure of
the association. Even if it had succeeded, he should de-
sire to put an end ma system by which charity was mulcted,
while parsimonious opulence escaped from contribution.._
(Hear.) The tax which pity levied on its slender resources
enabled insensibility to hug itself in the ignominious con-
sciousness of its privilege, and gave a base immunity to
men without a heart.—(Cheers.) He would, he owned,
disturb the saselid luxuries of men who, in the midst
of the ?tablic scorn, turned their self-applauding con-
templation to their chests of gold. But the society
to which he had referred had failed, and it would be vaine
to argue the question upon an hypothesis of its success.
If private benevolence could support its weight, it mere
well ; but when it sinks beneath it, it was but reasonable
if he. might borrow an illustration from a source so sacred,
to give it an auxiliary, and enable it to hear the hurthen
which it had no longer strength sufficient to sustain.--
(Cheers.) Should the Legislature refuse to extend to the
Dublin vestries the right of making an assessment in aid
of the Alendicity Association, it must close its gates on
four thousand paupers, and pour whole shoals of beggary,
weh all its worse accompaniments of loathsomeness, both
moral and physical, into the public streets. • The institu-
tion oaf a rate in the Irish metropolis would prevent this
serious evil—it would equalize contribution—would be a
resource to indigence and to benevolence—would be
guarded from abuse by the vigilance of good and kindly
men, and would be a precedent for adoptioa by its success,
or, if it should unhappily fail, would dispose by the evidence
of experiment of the entire question, by furnishing an ex-
ample which would not only deter from imitation, by,t put
to these speculations for the improvement of Irelarol a sa-
lutary end, With respect to the general question, it
was to be lamented that the Committee on the state of
the poor in Ireland did not report on whet seemed to
ho the essence and marrow of the matter which was
referred to theise consideration, It must he confessed,
however, task they had doze important; service by pub-
so large a hotly of valuable testimony. The
tees) witnesses moss conspicuous were Dr. Chalmers and
Dr. Doyle, wie, dissenting in opinion, coincided in huma-
nity, vied with each other in lofty faculty and in pure
eneeSion,--differed its dogma, but agreed in benevolence,
. and exhibited such a unions of truly Christian attributes,
that they should reconcile the two religions of which they
are the ornaments, and induce Rome to forgive Geneva,
And Geneva to pardon Rome.--(Hear, hear.) When men
so distinguished took views so opposite, it was difficult to
arrive at a conclusion free from doubt. He thought,
, however, that Dr. Doyle must be allowed to have, as a
witness, this signal advantage,—he spoke of what he had
seen, the other of what he had beard. Dr. Chalmers
talked of human nature, Dr. Doyle of its peculiar modifi-
cation in his own country. ' Dr. Chalmers was afraid of
congealing the pure sources of gratuitous benevolence.--
Ile did not know that in the heights of society in Ireland,
the morel temperature was already below the freezing
point, and that there was a crust of ice upon the fountain
of sympathy which charity could not melt, but which the
law perhaps must break.—(Hear, hear.) Be owned that
he thought it is paradox in others to maintain misery.
• the retired sensibility at the cost of worm:rent°
find
It was sts&cient to look at Ireland
wihnere the premises
painful answer to, those moan gi
in order to keep kindliness in practice, and to. cultivate
inch:aims was so practi-
were so amiable,
at
.sthiClll"e:onoznist he would paint
cally cruel.
wouldlhuddei and confute him, There
enough to wake him-ij
open the door and show hint
an Irish hovelohea

were two great features of dissimilarity between Ireland
and almost every other country, which ought to be noted,
before any inference was drawn from comparison. Arthur
Young, 50 years ago, and Malthus five years ago, observed
that the gentry in Ireland have no mercy for the poor.
The law that made slaves of one caste and tyrants of
another, demoralized both ; it sent the people to roll and
wallow in the depths of poverty, while it petrified the
feelings of the aristocracy, and gave to power an ossifica-
tion of the heart.—(Hear, hear.) It might be said "Time
will cure all this." Aye ; but when would the moral
Aurora arise? A generation must be laid in the grave,
and the field of Irish prosperity must be sought in the
church-yards of Ireland. Independently of the general
hard-heartedness produced by long and vitiating misrule,
Ireland (it was to be recollected) was the island of absen-
tees. Her life-blood was drained away ; millions of her
acres poured their produce into English harbours, and to
the laborious peasant, the sweat of whose brow does not
earn his bread, not one ear of all that golden harvest was
ever destined to return. The great Lords of England had
principalities in Ireland. They never saw the country;
or if they did, their " angel visits" were paid on
those days so auspicious to the prosperity of their
tenants,—the 29th of September and the 25th of
March. There was another class of proprietors, and they
were still worse,—the lesser and vagrant aristocracy of
Ireland herself, who looked upon their country as a mere
receptacle of vulgar provinciality,—who preferred being
insignificant in London, to being useful and respectable
in Dublin; or who in France or Italy vilified their country
in all the artifices of accent with which they vainly endea-
voured to disguise the original raciness of a genuine Irish
intonation. If a poor law could reach the proud Saxon
who neglected, or the paltry Irishman who despised, the
country that owed him a return of scorn, it would confer
a benefit. It were well if Ireland could stop, in transitu,
some portion at least of the treasure that was poured into
patrician coffers ; and as to the continental itinerists who
would be compelled to return to prevent their annihilation,
a poor law would have the merit of banishing them to
their country and sentencing them to home.—(Hear.)
These peculiar incidents to Ireland belong to her gentry;
but it should not be forgotten that the Legislature have, in
the infliction of much misery, entered with them into a
disastrous co-operation. The " clearing system" was sent
nee a chariot with two scythes fastened to its wheels by
the law itself (the Subletting Act and the Disfranchise-
vnent Bill), to mow the people down. He should not
diecuss the abstract propriety of preventing farms from be-
ing broken into fragments, but he complained, and corn•
anon feeling complained, that no measures of cotempora-
mous counteraction were provided,—that no issue was af-
forded, even by emigration, for the ejected tenantry, but
that thousands upon thousands were driven from the fields
where they were born, and hoped to die, without supplying
them with a place of refuge in the forests of Canada, or
even in the blasted wilds of Australian sterility. (Hear.)
But instead of providing this resource, a proceeding was
adopted which ought to make the perpetrators and tin
participators shudder.—(Hear.) A scene of greater
affliction was not to be found in the annals of human
sorrow. Whole masses of the people were turned out wit}
the world before them, and with Providence for their
guide. Old decrepit men, children scarcely able to crawl.
women almost in a state of nudity, and men with brawny
arms and famished faces, went forth in droves of destitu
tion. Some lay down in ditches to die; others raised
hovels for the purposes of casual mendicity on the brow of
come hill in the public way ; some retreated to excavations
in bogs, and hewed themselves out a habitation in a morass.
But the greater part found their way into the obscure lanes
and alleys of ruined districts in large cities,—they swarmed
in human clusters in garrets and in vaults; if you looked up,
you saw famine glaring from a cashless window in the attics
of some deserted house ; and if you looked down, you beheld
it in a cellar, seated upon its bed of short and pestilential
straw.—(Hear.) There was no exaggeration in this. The
Committee report that the ejected tenantry suffered affliction
sishich it was not in the power of language to describe.
But this was called a state of transition. Call it pesti-
lence, famine, death, and men would tremble; but call it
transition, envelop it in the technical vocabular of fiscal
science, and a directory of economists will speak of it with
the tranquillity with which a French philosopher would
have expatiated on the process of regeneration which his
country was undergoing through the sanguinary celerity of
the guillotine.—(Hear, hear.) But it was only justice to
add, that at last men's eyes and hearts had opened. It was
admitted that something must be done to alleviate these
dreadful.sofferings ; science had relented, political economy
had been touched, algebra was giving way to pity, and
theorists and speculators were no longer heard, amidst the
cries of a nation that stretches forth her hands for food.
Mr. STANLEY, after complimenting the Hon. and
Learped Gentleman upon the energy and eloquence with
which be supported the views which lie took of the
very important subject Thich had that night been brough
under the consideration of the House, said that the Hon.t
and Learned Gentleman, followed an example set him
in various quarters, had indulged in the customary ex-
aggeration with which the causes were generally described
front which the evils so much complained of were said to
have ,Isrung. In his conscience he believed if there was
one sub,ieet more than another upon which exaggeration
was frequent, it was on that single subject, the distress in
Ireland arcing from the operation of the Subletting Act.
He had taken the pains to make some inquiries upon that
matter, and the result of those inquiries did not lead
him to think that anything like the mischiefs attributed to
the Subletting Act arose from that cause; nay, he could
not find a single case wherein the process of ejectment was,
proceeded on under that Act. There were occurrences in
Ireland which led to the difficulty and distress ; but they
ateither proceeded from, nor were they assisted by, the
Subletting Act. Setting aside, however, those considera•
tiros, he would come to the topics which he
ese chiefly rose
e
for the purpose of noticing. The first of th th
pr„ position for a compulsory rate upon the inhabitants of
Dublin. A petition had been that morning put into his
hands, signed by the gentleman who held office for the
Lord Mayor of Dublin, which petition he had signed on
behalf of a public meeting at which he presided. That
petition prayed fur the enactment of poor laws for Ireland,
and, so far as it went, proved that the desire for that
species of provision was every day gaining ground in Ire-
land. It had been said with respect to Dublin, that there
did exist there, as there must in every city in Ireland,
to a greater or less degree, the machinery for carrying
into effect a systetn of poor laws; but surely the case
of the Mendicity Society afforded nothing like an ex-
periment which could warrant the introduction of a
system of poor laws into that city ; and for this rea-
son, that the conductors of the Mendicity Society felt
that their funds were circumscribed, and that they did
not possess an unlimited command over the purses
of their fellow-citizens, such as a compulsory rate would
impart to the overseers of the poor, or whoever might
have the management of those affairs. The rate upon the
city of Dublin, or Cork, Limerick, or Belfast, might be
all very well if it carried with it any security that the
system would go further; for he felt with all the Hon.
Members who had spoken upon the subject, that nothing
could be more equitable than that the land should be made
to support the poor, provided that, in securing to them
the means of subsistence, worse evils than the former dis-
tress were not introduced. The proposition of the Hon.
Mover was one entitled to the most serious consideration,
but lie thought it dangerous for the House to pledge itself
to espy opinion unless it was prepared to adopt some spe-
cific plan calculated to give relief to the people of Treland,
without' carrying in the train of that relief a body of evils
greater than those removed. Suppose there were a com-
pulsory assessment in any or all of the principal towns in
Ireland, would not the population of the country be in-
stantly driven to the garrets and the cellars of the city, so
soon as the mere act of inhabitancy could procure them
gratuitous relief? It was said by an Hon. Gentleman
near him that a day was sufficient for the mainte-
nance of persons in Ireland, as the Mendicity Society
could support a considerable portion of those under
their care for that sum ; but, as he had said before,
the proceedings of the Mendicity Society proved no-
thing, for they had not the unlimited power of assessing
their fellow-citizens. He would request of his Ho.
nourable and Learned Friend to look at what might be
the probable results of a compulsory assessment. Let
them look to the evidence given with respect to the houses
of industry in Cork and Dublin. The introduction of a
compulsory assessment would be nothing less than the
commencement of a system of which no man could see
the termination. It was letting in the narrow end of the
wedge, with every probability that the greater portion
would speedily follow. On the abstract question of the
introduction of poor laws into Ireland, he was not prepared
to give an opinion, but, for God's sake, if the House were
determined on the adoption of them, let it ha done with
their eyes open—let them not begin by exciting expectations
which they could not gratify—let them not make an ad-
vance without the possibility of receding—and let them
which might lead God knew where.
nuoet
elasepgeicniaialysyobjected to theth propositdion of the Hon.
rnounwhitchiiat
wietanwtent to
Gentleman opposite,
pledge the House to a ondectareatigo
igbt be understood to siga,a;
thing or nothing•
the making a proviaiiotornfo-r the blin the lame, or tlie
impotent ; but soon there might bed, found
noat plausible
rovide provided
compla:ot that the able-
bodied
more distinct or morepauper
fur. There wea no two propositions
capable of being supported upon Jitferent srounds than