The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-26 00:00:00

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The Marcptis of LONDONDERRY re:lied, with•
dqta-i7 ft)i ir, 4,4),.;q11! T et?
Ulthe seatity attendance of Peers, but l xprcssmg tits in-
tention to bring forward the sui-ject i4,ain on a future
day, by moving an aclitress to her Alsjesty for copies of
certain corretzpc.ndence width had pa.,,sed betecen the
Post-office authorities aLd the parties who contracted fur
carrying the mails.

THE INCUMBERED ESTATES BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL moved the order of the day for
going into Commitiee on this Bill, and stated, that
on bringing up the report, he would move a proviso
to ono of tho clauses, limiting the power of ihe Cona•
missioners to certain classes of applications by inCum•
brancers.

The Bill then passed through Committee, and was or•
dered to be reported.
The County Cess (Ireland) an was read a third time,
and pasna.

The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 25.
'T'RANSPORTATION (IRELAND) BILL.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
On the question that the Bill do now pass having bee
put,_

Mr. LAWLESS said that although he opposed the
Bill, no mere loyal men existed than himself; and now
that the measure was carried, he once more felt it to be
his duty to implore her Majesty's Ministers to show
mercy towards the prisoners.
Lord J. RUSSELL said although there had been
much said in the course of this debate that might natu-
rally have led to the expression of strong opinions of
the offence of which those persons had been found
guilty—that of high treason—yet he thought that the
House generally would agree with him that her Majesty's
Ministers had carefully abstained from saying anything
to characterise the offence. He must say that they had
so refrained in spite of the temptations, or rather the
provocation oflered to them in the speeches of some
Hon. Members, which raised the opinion that the cha-
racter of the offence was inconsistent with the charge of
the judge and the verdict of the jury. He had only to
say that he believed the advice which had been given to
her Majesty was that of mercy—(Hear, hear)—and
that in awarding punishment, the feeling of Government
was not a vindictive one'; but a feeling that, if the
punishment were lighter than the offence merited, they
would be chargeable with not taking proper precautions
for the peace of Ireland. However pitiful it might be
to thorn to it flirt a severe sentence, they had no aleerna-
tire but to award such a punishment as would at ford a
warning against the repetition of an offs nee which fr ould
endanger the tranquillity and security of Ireland,
The Bill, after a few words from Mr. ANSTEY, was
then passed.
FOOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Poor
Relief (Ireland) Bill; Mr. Bernal in the chair.
Mr. STAFFORD rose and said that they were at a
loss to know at what stage they should commenoe this
Bill, owing to the absurd course pursued by thee Hon.
Member (Mr. John O'Connell) in moving the excliueien
of strangers. With respect to the maximum rate pro-
posed by the Bill, he was opposed to it, seeing t hat it
had failed in this country. He found that the dobt of
all the unions in Ireland amounted to somewhere about
6,500,0001., and that the money was chiefly owing by the
most distressed unions, and by this maximum rate they
chow to the unions they should not have the support 01
their own poor. For these ri asens he must takes the
sense of the Committee against this clause.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Gentleman. bad
an opportunity of inflicting upon the House a soctosd
time an additional proof of his self-sufficiency, prosi;esetst
and emptiness. He looked upon the maximum rake as
being too high.
Sir JOHN YOUNG supported the proposition of the
Government. He suggested that, in addition to tlae ad"
vantages to be Of Ided to the poor in Ireland, under this
Bill, they should also increase the fccilities of the *wilt.'
houses in Ireland. Ile considered in-door relief tf ,e best
and necessary mode of alleviating the distress. 'The
distribution of food out of doers preserved life; hilt, as a
they were without clothing, they were exposed to
tacks of disease which was fatal in their state of destr '
tution.
Mr. CLEMENTS said he did not think the maxi-1110
rate of seven shillings before aid was extended was .not
sufficient guarantee, because all that was required vies,
that due diligence should be useil in the collection of thee.
maximum rate of seven shillings in the pound. The
electoral division was, under this Bill, bound to cionlrz:
bute two shillings in the pound upon the net :manual
value, beyond the five shillings for local nece ssities'
ibis would have the effect of preventing capitalists froln
investing money in the cultivation of the land. La 1.5°4
this Bill, which provides for extraneous aid, had pre-
vented a party from purchasing an estate in Ulstor. be"
cause he was unwilling to incur the responsibility of being
liable to contribute poor rates to districts over which 11,e
had no control. The great evil at present was, that 9°
people of Ireland could not see their way out of their
difficulties, and this rate of two shillings upon the -union
would increase that, end, therefore, he should give his
support to the amendment.
Mr. FAGAN said be considered this proposed /7,
creased rating had the effect of throwing ground out
cultivation. He thought it was necessary to have it max-
hewn rate fixed, and for that reason he had, and would
continue to support the proposal of the Government.
Mr. H. HERBERT said he weak' gladly aceeept the
guarantee, but he did not consider it worth more; than
the paper it was written upon. They bad resources
now left; they would not revert to the con-acre. The
farmers could not, as formerly, support the poor, by vo.
luntary charity, because they were themselves reduced
to a distressed condition. Neither could the -gentry
afford relief' from want of means. It was there fore fal-
lacious to say, as the Noble Lord had done, th:it when
they reached the maximum they might return to their
former resources. Unless the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government gave them a guarantee as to valet h°
should do when the maximum rate was exhausted, h°
certainly should vote for the amendment of hie Ilan'

Friend.
Mr. GROGAN supported the amendment. TheY
were, in his opinion, (icing a most serious injury to the
people of Ireland, by legislating for them as if tba
whole of the country was like the western portiataof it,
when the facts were otherwise. He denounced As 25.
union rate to be raised, in addition to the 55., (is m°s'
mischievous, and for his part he preferred 75., Or 011
9s. in the pound at once, to the plan now proposeu•
It was quite clear the mepeure proposed had noel gllOO
confidence to the psople, for emigration was going °II
this year even more rapidly than the last.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS believed, that had• the
measure suggested last year by the Irish Members to the
Government been adopted, emigration would not. bar
gone on as it had since dune, or be so much increrried 11!
the present year. Then as to the objection raists-1 o_o
the maximum rate proposed by the Bill would slot bat
sufficient, hs had only to refer the House to wheat bog_
ben already collected. Of 130 unions in Ireland,eout of
the entire number there was not one In which 7s. jai the
pound was collected; there were only seven in Ste/hien
ss. in the pound was got in, and eleven in which 75'
was expended. The argument of the Hon. Mew er for
Leitrim was that 7s. in the pound would not restore ;con-
fidence, but surely if that were to be the result whi it enlist
ho the consequence if an unlimited rate was to he pro-
posed. He contended that a maximum rate, web as
that proposed by the Hon. Member for the City of Dub-
lin would be most disastrous, and for his part it appeared
t i him to be impossible that the social and moral condi-
tion of the people of Ireland could improve unlessacon-
fidence were restored, which could only be done by ruck
a measure as that now proposed.
Sir JOHN WALSH complained that the Houser was
not favoured during the debate with the opinions of any
one Member of her Majesty's Ministers. Ile belie ved
that in a large portion of Ireland the maximum rate
would not be required at all—but in the distressed U elm;
it would be perfectly nugatory. Some limit, bow-
ever, he contended, ought to be put to the claims
of those who demanded relief, or the whole frame
of society would be destroyed.—(Hear, beer.) The
poor•la,w had added to that destitution and misery
in
Ireland which it was intended to lessen. It appealed to
him to be impossible not to conclude, from the 1,• opers
before the House, three-fourths of the distress had been
created by the levy ing of the rates. The peasantry were
reduced to beggary by the mode adopted for reli eying
the public distress. He had only risen to explain whY
he bad come to a conclusion different to that of sot so or
his friends with whom he usually acted, and that he
intended to vote for the maximum rate proposed: by
Government.
Mr. CORNWALL LEWIS said that the lElOns
Member who had just addressed the House had cunt-
',Wiled that no member of the Government had rise a to
express his opinions on the question before them; bu,s he
would remind the Hon. Member that it was the lees
necessary that should be done at present, as Governtx tent
had already expressed its views on the subject. T hey
had, however, had tne advantage that evening of hear lag
the matter discussed by several Irish Members; but he
confessed that be had heard no answer given to tie
speech of the lion. Member for Cavan (Sir J. Your g).
It had been contended that there was no precedent foss 4
maximum rate. In the case of the highway-rate iet
England there was a maximum rate, and so far that I
a precedent, but it was on a different subject, and he :itle•
mated it was not therefore a precedent. The only otl ter:
precedent was that referred to by the Hon. Member
Northampton. and he (Mr. C. Lewis) would call attend on
passed lessegnr
to this case. Under the poor-law of England there was no
maximum rate, but in the county of Surrey and moth er
ienagtesTdeepmta::
county a maximum rate bad been fixed in the last ce
petheualtiatrh;
tury. In 1796 an Act was
and in 1812, at the le rind of the
;utheeslt'iodneporfecpiaretice::
mum,
ni-
ation of the currency, there wits a f.„
of the maximum. Abandoning the
question of a maximums
rounds, be would call at-•
restnd on adimtsitotwinng
te ntion to the condition
md eunstt,
in
the west of Ireland and which, for a series of years,,
placed, tenants !crab a portion of the south has been.
America, and others ig their houses, and some going to,
parts of Ireland. L spreading themselves over different;
and that countrLandlords could not get their rents,.
subjected to au almost resembled the condition of one,
invading teeny. Suggestions were com-•
muuicated to Government from various quarters, that it.' was
necessary
to fix a rate beyond which taxation. should not go, or otherwise it was felt that the land
would not be cultivated. Aging on the advice of the.
Poor-law Commissioners and persons having local
knowledge, the Government had come to the determi-
nation of fixing a maximum rate. If a rate of five shil-
!logs had been rarely collected in the distressed unities
.hey could hardly expect that a rate of five shillings
could be increased. Therefore, by fixing a rate of five
shillings, and a rate in-aid of two shillings, they gave a
confidence to ratepayers then whatever might be the
exigencies of future years, a rate of taxation beyond
that would not Le imposed. He thought the fears cf
lion. Members on that subject had been greatly exag-
gerated. The necessity of restoring confidence in the
southern and western unions was never of more import-
ance than at the present moment. The Hun. Member