The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-22 00:00:00

He was aware thht in doing so they were treading upon
delicate gmund, and that the course was liable to some
objectsos`i ; but it was to be recollected, as he was prepared
to prr,ve, that the Government had only a choice of evil-.
Co ammtion and rebellion were threatened, and Govern-
ment thought itself compelled to take the course it
had pursued, and to incur the responsibility of adopt-
ing a measure which, though objectionable, seemed
.least
liable to objection. Everybody who
was acquainted
with the Noble Lord at the head of affairs in Ireland must
know, that nothing was dearer to him than the preserva-
tion of the peace and the promotion of the happiness of
that kingdom. He bad done his utmost to allay religious
animosity, and he had thought that to equip the yeomanry
was the least likely to occasion new dissensions. At pre-
sent their arms were nearly unserviceable from long disuse,
and their clothing, which had not been renewed for eleven
or twelve years, was completely worn out ; but it was not
intended to overawe the professors either of one religion
or of the other. Lord Anglesea was most anxious to see
both Protestants and Catholics united under the same
standard ; he called upon both to join it ; and he only
hoped that he might not be required to summon them to
active service.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he would not apply a term
he had used on another occasion, but he must observe that
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) had come to
Ireland as a sort of apprentice' Statesman, unacquainted
with her peculiarities, wants, or distresses.—(No, no, and
hear.) Was the Right Hon. Gentleman aware, among
otb r things, that it was the constant practice of the
Orange yeomanry, whom he so applauded, to leave their
arms only a short distance from any town where a fair was
held, and then, having excited a disturbance, to send for
those arms, in order to intimidate or destroy the Catholics?
Did he know how inmy Catholics had lost their lives in
consequence? or if he did not know it, was Lord Anglesea
acquainted with the fact ? Probably not, or he would never
have resorted to the measure of calling out the yeomanry;
and he (Mr. O'Connell) implored the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (taking it for granted that an augmentation of military
force was necessary in Ireland) rather to increase the re-
gular soldiery, who had always behaved with generosity
and impartiality, than to resort to the yeomanry, the source
of so much dissension and bloodshed. The unhappy Ca-
tholics, on many occasions, had fled to the protection of
the army from the persecution of the yeomanry. Ile also
implored the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, by the
high character he had ever maintained, and which, no
doubt, he would continue to maintain, not to be led away
by the misinformation he might obtain from Ireland,
which was given by those who only visited her shore for
an hour, and returned to England to vapour against keep-
ing up religious distinctions. As he had said before, he
would vote for any increase of the King's troops, if it
would render-needless the re-equipment and organization
of the yeomanry. Already dissensions were reviving, in
consequence of the determination of Government in this
respect, and he solemnly assured the House that nothing
was more calculated to keep up distinctions between sect
and party. The announcement that the yeomanry was to
be called out was of doleful omen to Ireland, and ealcu-

(Hear)—especially when his address came like oil on
troubled waters, in the midst of one of those angry discus-
sions which sometimes took place amongst them. But
the Hon. Gentleman had then expressed his surprise that
both sides of the House supported the Government on the
present estimates. But that gave him (Lord Palmerston)
no surprise, at a time of great difficulty, when it was ne-
cessary to supply to the Government the means of support-
ing its authority at home, and the honour of the nation
abroad. That the House should recognise that necessity
excited in him no surprise. That was not the first time
that such general support had been given, and he hoped that
it would not be the last, should occasion arise for a similar
concurrence. The I-ton. Gentleman had found fault with
an expression which had been used on a former occasion,
that the proposed augmentation was merely a tempo-
rary completion of the peace establishment. But what
was the fact ? All that was proposed was merely to com-
plete the establishment determined on three years ago
(and that might certainly be called a peace establish-
ment), in order that the nation should be prepared, if cir•
cunistances occurred requiring a large force. In reply to
the lion. Gentleman's allusions to the foreign relations of
the country, he (Lord Palmerston) would only say, that
he should not then go into a full explanation respecting
them ; but the Hon. Member and the House would find,
when the fitting time for explanation should arrive, that
England had not dictated to other nations in the settle-
ment of their internal Constitutions.—(llear, hear. )—lt
was not to he said that the present estimate was brought
forward with a view to interference with other ❑ations.--
(Hear.)---llis Bight Hon. Friend the Secretary at War
had explained the ground of the estimate. The augmen-
tation was made, not with a view to external war, but to
the preservatio❑ of internal tranquillity. He had no doubt
that, if the time should arrive that the Government
should find it necessary to call on Parliament for the means
of maintaining the honour of the country against foreign
aggression, they would receive the required support.—
(Hear, hear.)—But the estimate had not bee❑ brought
forward in that view, but simply in consequence of the in-
ternal circumstances of the country i:self. The Hon.
Gentleman recommended that we should retire within our
insular boundaries, disband our army on the one hand, and
dismantle our fleet on the; other, and shut ourselves in
from all connections with other countries. But he (Lord
Palmerston) did not think that the advantages of our in-
sular situation, however important, should prevent us
from maintaining a good army for our defence within, and
a respectable nay to protect our shores.
Mr. VANE was understood to approve of the augmen-
tation.
Mr. C. W. W. WYNN denied that the proposed aug-
mentation was occasioned by the state of the foreign re-
lations of the country. It would be time enough to make
an augmentation on that account when the honour of
England should require it. He thought (as we under-
stood him) that they should be able to decide that ques-
tion in the course of the ensuing month.—[The Right
Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to detail particulars, we
believe, of Colonial Estimates, of which on account of
the tone in which he spoke, and the noise of the House,

lated to produce the most calamitous results.
Mr. STANLEY—I am sure that the House will not
he influenced in its decision by any personal feeling it may
e ltertain of the Hon. Member for Waterford. I am cer-
tain also of this, that the speech he has uttered, and the

we could not collect one sentence.]
Sir. H. HARbINGE explained.
Mr. EULIVER made some observations which were
quite inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. LITTLETON expressed his thanks to the late Go-

sentiments it contains, would justify Ministers in proposing vernment for the economical management of the army,
a larger increase of force than they hope will be necessary in consequence of which the present Administration was
to preserve the tranquillity of Ireland. At all events we enabled to make so great an augmentation.—(llear, hear.)
can have the benefit, if benefit it be, of his opinion that In every company in which he (Mr. Littleton) heard the
an augmentation of the regular army is desirable in pre- conduct of the late Secretary at War spoken of, the
Terence to the yeomanry. The Hon. Member said that he Right Hon. Baronet was universally eulogised. For his
had spoken of me elsewhere in other terms than those he part, he (Mr. Littleton) was not afraid that his consti-
has veotured to use here. tuents should know that he was favourable to a small in-
Mr. O'CONNELL—I said that I had spoken so of crease of the military force at present. Considering the
persons filling the office held by the Right Hon. Gentle- state of affairs on the Continent, the Government was
man.—(No, no 1)—I will tell the House at once, that in not departing from its principles and promises, in snaking
allusion to a ludicrous story I called them shave-beggars. the contemplated augmentation.
Mr. STANLEY—In the Irish newspapers I have seen Mr. HUNT said, that the last Hon. Member who had
reports which gave me reason to think what indeed I did addressed the House, had thought proper to praise both
not doubt before—that no man better accommodates him- the present Ministry and the last, for their conduct respect-
self to the character of his audience than the Learned Mem- ing the military force of the country. Now, he (Mr. H.)
her for Waterford. No two persons could be more different found that he could praise neither.—(Hear and laughter.)
than the Learned Member for Waterford in the House of —The present had promised retrenchment; and, amongst
Commons, and the individual who hears his name in Ire- their first measures, they proposed an augmentation of the
land (for I can hardly suppose it the same man)—(Hear)— army and of the expence. On the one hand, the Right
agitating and courting" the most sweet voices" of the rabble Hon. Secretary of War announced a reduction of 5001.
of Ireland.—(Much cheering.) 'Whatever may be his con- per annum ; and on the other, an increase of expense to
duct in other places, to me in this House he appears in no she amount of upwards of 300,0001. per annum, or nearly
other light than as the Member for Waterford; I shall view half a million. He trusted that they would find they were
his conduct to me in this place with no political animosity placing themselves in a situation which would prove in the
arising out of past transactions, and without condescending result one of extreme mortification. One gentleman said,
to notice what may have occurred elsewhere, or the shave- that the augmentation was occasioned by the internal state
beggar abuse which he addressed to the mobs of Dublin.— of the country. Another attributed it to the agitated state
( Loud cheering.) To borrow an expression from the Hon. of the Continent. In God's name, why increase the army
Member himself (an expression employed in this House, from 81,000 to 88,000 for the purpose of putting down
and, therefore, liable to no exception), we can trust to the violence in the disturbed districts? And if the purpose was
returning good sense of the people—to the wealth, respec. to overawe the Continent, he must say, the force was not
tability, anti influence of the well-disposed in opposition to such as to indicate the intention. He appealed to the House,
the schemes of the Learned Member for Waterford, and in on the part of the country, not to sanction the increase.
support of the Constitution, and I will also say, of the liber- He perfectly well remembered the sarcastic terms in which
ties of his country.—(Hear, hear.) the Right Hon. Baronet below him observed upon the con-
Lord F. LEVESON GOWER expressed his approba- duct of tire present Government in following the course
tion of the vote, pursued by their predecessors. The former Ministers were
Mr. HUME congratulated the House on the new scene unable to effect reductions, and the present Ministers found
it had this night presented, when three Secretaries at War themselves precisely in the same situation ; and therefore
were disputing which deserved the merit of saving 300/. the Hon. Baronet found himself unable to comprehend
The people of England, however, would hear with sor- how he and his friends had been deprived of their situations
row, that while a retrenchment of only 300/. was made in the late Government. In what condition was this
on one side, an expenditure of half a million was made on country at the present moment placed? We were dictat-
the other. It was preposterous to call the present a peace ing a King to tire people of Belgium—we were determin-
establishment, when the army consisted of ten thousand ing who should and who should not rule over them. In
more men than for the last ten years. It had been said his opinion, the only fault the Belgians had committed
that both France and Russia might be considered only wide- was, after fighting for their liberties and achieving them,
extended ramps, so large Was their military force; but ad- that they did not, without consulting England or any
emitting the fact, how was England interested in their war. power in Europe, at once appoint a King themselves, or
like preparations? The peace establishment (as it was rather a President. That was what he should have pre-
mis-called) of England consisted of no less than 88,000 ferred. And in the same way he should say that France,
men, of which force no less than 15,000 were officers, after three days of successful fighting—after losing 8,000
making one officer to about every six men. This, too, was precious lives--he should say that the only fault France
at a time when the people in all parts of the country were committed, was in not at once returning to a republic. For
calling for retrenchment. He was persuaded that out of his part he should say what he thought, whether in that
the fifteen millions to be voted, three millions might be House or out of it ; and the Right Hon. Member for
spared ; and he called upon the Chancellor of the Excime- Windsor, whom he had often met in the presence of mul-
quer to reconsider his estimates. He protested against the titudes, would bear testimony to Iris character in that
employment of yeomanry either in England or Ireland, respect. They would not then be called rabble, he
but especially in the latter, where religious rancour hoped, by that Right Hon. Gentleman, who had re-
would be excited and perpetuated. If increase wets ne- cently, in speaking of the rabble of Dublin, appeared
cessary, he agreed with the Hon. Member for Waterford to have lost his temper.—(Cries of " No, no, no.")—
that the augmentation should be in the regular army. It That Right Hon. Gentleman gave the Hon. Mem-
was the duty of every man in the country to maintain a her for Waterford credit for speaking in a tone in
peace. Before the American war, the whole expenditure that House which he was not accustomed to use out
of the country amounted to no more than sixteen millions of it. Of him (Mr. Hunt) he was sure the Right
a year, of which one was employed in the payment of the Hon. Member for Windsor, who had frequent oppor-
interest of the National Debt, and the other fifteen were tunities of knowing him, would say no such thing. If
sufficient for all the expences of the Government ; and he could be reminded of any one sentence which ire
now fifteen millions were demanded for the Army, Navy, uttered at Preston, he would now willingly and readily
and Ordnance alone. He thought the country ought not repeat that sentence in the House, whether it was orderly
to hear that. The military establishments hard now cost or disorderly.---(Cries of "Oh ! Oh ! Order, order.")
two hundred millions sterling in time of peace, since If he considered himself disorderly, he should certainly pay
the conclusion of the la,t war. It was thus the the House the respect of desisting; but if he were re-
country was placed in its present difficulties. Gen- minded of anything which be said out of doors, he should
tlemen might think that was very little ; but they ought proceed at once to repeat it without very curiously con-
t m consider that it was fully one-fourth of the whole sidering beforehand what might be the consequences, for
debt. Had this country done as America had ma- he would sacrifice anything of mere form and ceremony for
naged, 180,000,000/. of that sum could well have been tire sake of maintaining what he so highly prized—open-
eforded to be paid off the debt. The attempt to open the ness and consistency. He had still a few further remarks
Scheldt cost the country on a former occasion 750,000,000/. to make, but he thought it right to apprise Hon. Members
He could not say what the country had profited in return. that the moment tire clock struck twelve he should move
The First Lord of time Admiralty has assumed great merit an adjournment. He was just reminded that the clock of
for the present Administration, on account of the opening that noose did not strike, but when it got to twelve he
of the Scheldt. In that they reminded him of all the credit should most assuredly redeem his pledge by moving an
the late Lord Castlereagh used to take upon himself for adjournment. Of the questions before the House, the
the former opening. Those expeditions were talked of as first was, whether the present estimates should be agreed
lightly, as if it were nothing that millions of men should to ; the second question, whether they should be agreed
be driven like cattle to be slaughtered wherever a Minister to for three months ? Now, so far from agreeing with
might think proper. That was the doctrine of Lord either of those propositions—anti he would say the same
Castlereagh I and were Ministers determined to maintain in and out of the House—he should propose, that in-
the alliances of 1814 by the same principle ? As to the stead of the numbers being reduced to 81,000, he
protection of this country from foreign aggression, should propose a reduction still greater—lie should pro-
be (Mr. Hume) thought that if we confined ourselves to pose a diminution down to seventy-one thousand, un-
our internal affairs, and refrained from interference with less better reason could be given for keeping up the
the other nations, the country was sufficiently protected by numbers than had yet been shown. Again he would
its insular situation. He protested against those estimates say, that if the House sat for a few minutes longer he
which provided for objects, the maintenance of which should move an adjournment, if he got any Hon. Member
was deprecated by the people. No man could suppose to second time motion ; and he should divide, however
that the assessed taxes or any others would be taken off small might be the minority,—for he wished tire people of
whilst such an extensive establishment was to be kept England to know who the Members of that House were
up. Much relief might be afforded by exchanging one who declared themselves the supporters, and who the op.
kind of tax which pressed severely, far another which posers, of a Naval and Military Establishment, costing
might be felt less. But if Ministers expended fifteen 15,000,000/. a year. Tire Right Hon. Baronet near
millions for the Army, Navy, and Ordnance, they could him had very truly declared that there was no way of ac-
not realise the expectations which their Promises had counting for time course which the present advisers of the
raised throughout the country. Until they should inter- Crown took, except by supposing that there was some pe-
fere—(Great noise,
"ughl'e, and laughter)—Gentlemen culiar atmosphere belonging to that part of the House
had better take care.—(Laughter.)—Really that was not which they occupied, and which drove every man who
fair.—(Hear.)—Even though the House should not he sat on the Ministerial side to pursue the same course.—
disposed to support him, he would not be affected by the (A laugh.) Before be came into the House, he was told
neglect in the discharge of its duty.—(Hear.
)—He was that something of a peculiar atmosphere prevailed through-
„ icing to make allowances for the situation in which the out the whole House. He confessed that he was sensible
present Government bad beers left. He trustee] that they of nothing of the sort. He declared that he was the same
would be obliged to retrace their steps, and make amends as ever he had been.--(Cries of " Question, question.")
for their defection from the right path, in which he had The question was, whether there had been any thing said
expected them to move. If they showed themselves even on either side which could justify the maintenance of a
yet sincere in the work of Reform, they would ha time military force of 87 or 88,000 men, for no purpose, ex-
remove all the evils under is hich the country laboured. cept that of keeping the people of England in sub-
Lord PALMERSTON was always pleased to see the jection? He would ask the House in what situation
Hon. Member for Middlesex rise to address the House, as they were placed, and he would remind them of the
that Hon. Gentleman always did so in a pleasant temper... question put by the Hon. Member for. Middlesex,—