The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-19 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

SUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY, JULY 18.
Att.
NEW BILLS.
tiTI the —ROGDEN and others brought up. from the Commons
Leather Duty Reduction Bill, the Irish Endowed Schools'
tic.and the Duchy of Cornwall Bill, which were read a first
rn
The SCOTCH JURIES.
rece, Report of the Committee on the Scotch Jury Bill was
leed and agreed to.
IlinT,e Scotch Spirits Drawbacks, and the Annuities Memorials
1,11 were read a third time and passed.
Prie of SHAFTESBURY, in the absence of his Noble
Iloi:d"(Viscount Sidmouth) who was not able to attend, post-
-4.4- me Committee on the Prison Laws Consolidation and
endmen Bill, till Monday next.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
brewers
of presented a petition from certain
e„,wers of Andover against die Beer Retail Bill.
oriir• BROUGHAM presented a petition from a Gentleman
V"!e name of Robert Gourlay, complaining of the imperfect
nistration of justice in the province of Upper Canada.
tnis‘f* WALLACE brought up the second Report of the Coul-
R,44eners appointed to inquire into the collection of the Public
Znue in Ireland.
44.f,,ter a few words from Mr. WARRE, Mr. WALLACE, and
itic; thq Report was ordered to be printed.
Cove . MOORE presented a petition from the Maltsters of
,t, against the Beer Retail Bill.
Atrr' f-7,EARCE presented eight petitions of a similar nature.
of ifc't CALVERT presented a petition from the inhabitants
derC. dneY and Finchley, against the Highgate Chapel Bill.—
°li-ZPto be referred to the Committee on the Bill.
.;NISON presented a petition from certain publicans
Thr—ng, in Surrey, 'against the Beer Retail Bill.
the Marquis of TITgCHFIELD presented a petition from
isaine4nßnillabiants of King's Lynn, in Norfolk, ir. favolir of the
air. R. KING'S BENCH PRISON.
Prison. ‘i* BENNET presented a Petition from Col. Bailey,
Proper for debt in the King's Bench, complaining of
thacondct b xercised twards him by the Marshal of
to in.ferrrn• Th Ron. Pdember thought the. House was bound
tsee
treerieo on the subject, and he gave notice that early in the
Kune4lat n be would move for leave to bring in a Bill to re-
The sarriPrierh
Penon e lion. Member then esented a Petition from
.a
1.101.ns Bench
the King , the name of Alexander haw, a prisoner for debt in
Pr4on complaining that ht, had been placed
le, °nth,' 'ringer-lane Gaol, there to be confined for three
navi4 ;troduY order of the Marshal of the King's Bench, for
‘4 Ceti sPlri—ts into the latter prison. He prayed

Mr. BROUGHAM rose to move the second reading of this
Bill. He disclaimed any wish to attack the motives of the in-
dividuals who opposed the measure ; but the fact was, that the
beer in general sale was so bad, that its consumption had not
increased in proportion to the increase of the p6pulation. He
did not mean to say that this was to be entirely attributed to
the badness of the beer, but to the tax, which seldom appeared
to be taken into account. The poor were grievomiy oppressed
by the tax ; and it was on their behalf that he submitted the
Bill to the consideration of the House. Ai, the law now stood,
no person could sell strong beer by retail, without an excise
licence, and a licence from the Magistrates. It was a most
admirable inconsistency in the law,' to place itself in hostility
to the practice of tippling, and yet to oblige every man who
wanted a pot of beer, to go to the public house for it. He de-
nied that the law meant to give the brewers the monopoly
which they assumed. His Hon. Friend reminded him that the
Magistrates so construed the law as well as the brewers. It
might be so, but he spoke in the presence of many wos..hy Ma.
gistrates, with whom he wished to enter into amicable discus.
sion on the spirit of the law, convinced that their anxious wish
to do justice to the public, would lay them open to an impres-
sion from him, whilst he pledged himself to give way to their
views, if they could convince him. He asked them then what
was the meaning of that part of the law which gave them the
power to restrict the number of public houses by licensing, if
it were not the prevention of the indulgence of tippling, by
keeping the number of public houses exactly proportioned to
the wants of the public, and admitting only to be the owners
of them, such as could give the security of good character,
and property to a certain amount ? It was evidently the con-
venience and well-being of the public that were meant by
the laws in this respect, and part of the intention must, there-
fore, have been to ensure to the consumer the benefit of good
wholesome beer. Since the supply of this article had been ex-
clusively in the hands. of the brewers, such beverage had
been imposed upon the people, as the Legislature was not
warranted to sanction the continuance of. The encourage-
ment of retail beer.shops would also he lvneficial to the re-
venue. It was at present the interest of the brewers to use as
small a quantity of malt as possible, to make that article and
hops keep pace with each other as much as possible. He
would refrain besides from adverting to any of those other in.
gredients with hard names, of foreign plants, which were so
well known to be mixed up with the liquor they had to drink.
This was certain, that the beer they now had was not of that
kind spoken of by an excellent judge of his day, Boniface, as
that which he could eat, drink, and sleep upon. If this sill
were allowed to pass, the poorer classes of his Majesty's sub-
jects would have'better beer brewed for them, and instead of
being obliged to send for every pot to the tippling house, ex-
posing their daughters and children to all the temptation and
pollution of evil example by making them the messengers,
they might obtain it from a respectable humble shop, where no
bad company would' be thrown in their way. Good, whole-
some, old English beer would again flow through the country.
A fair competition would -be introduced to that which was
poison to the health, and worse to the morals ; and which had
in some parts of the country which he knew, reduced a healthy-
vigourous population,. to a pun,y paralytic race, leave alone its
effects on the metropolis. The House would of course see
that he alluded to ardent spirits.—(Hear, hear '..)—The Hon.

Member concluded by moving that the Order of the Day be
read' for the second reading of the Retail Beer Bill.
The Order having been read, and the question put upon the
second reading
Mr. F. BUXTON Said, that as his Hem. and Learned Friend
had expressed himself as a friend to the right of property; he
was convinced that he did, not know what would be the opera-
tion and effect of his own Bill. The House would be sur-
prised to hear that such' were the sentiments of his Honourable:
Friend in bringing forward a Bill, the effect of which would
be to bring ruin on 50,000 persons, and injure a capital of
30 millions employed in the beer trade. This being the im-
portant effect of the Bill, he did not think he need urge any
other objection to it than the late period of the Session. Arl
public business of importance had by common consent been
postponed, aed yet ,that was the period thought fitting for
the introduction'of a measure affecting property to a greater
extent than any which had been brought in during the present
Session.—(Hear, hear !)—With regard, however, to his other
objections to the Bill, he must point out to the House the
justice of separating the interests of the victuallers and pub-
licans from the brewers, who were of a far more obnoxious
character. If the brewers deserved punishment. as monopo-
lists, why should the, publican included ? If the brewers
emplofetitto great a proportriffikik of capital in the business,
what had, the publicans to do with that ? They were in
no way converted, and it was not just to the weaker de-
linquent to join him in punishment With the stronger. He
therefore called -.upon the House to separate the cause of
He publicans from that of the brewers. He was sorry his
on. and Learned Friend had not made any direct attack
linen the LOndon brewers, as he should have been most happy
to vindicate them from .the charge of imposing a bad article
upon the country. But the Bill had the direct effect of ruin-
' ing the
.publican, and injuring the brewer. Now he begged
the House to 'observe *that the .property of the publican was
extremely hartersied ; his little wealth 'was of slow growth,
and in fact ace elated shilling upon shilling. Publicans had
generally been' servants who set up with small capitals, and
he assured his Hon. and Learned Friend, that the London pub-
lican earned his money much more by sending out his beer,
than by selling it at his bar. It was the same in the country,
th6ugh not to the same extent. If, therefore, the house con-
ferred-upon all the chandlers and barbers in 'the neighbour-
' heed the power of selling beer, they would destroy the publi-
can's out. door sale and ruin his business. He again assured
the House, that there- were upwardi of fifty thousand re-
spectable-, industriotis, thriving tradesmen who would be thus
affected by the Bill.--(Hear, hear; hear o—Then came the
question, whether these people had Vested rights in the ex-
isting state things? That question; he thought might be
set at rest, by considering whether th 4 publican, at the time
of vesting his capital in his public-house, could anticipate this
Bill being passed ? Certainly not. If antiquity had any thing
to do vsith it, he eould boldly assert, that the
„present system of
licensing public-houses dated its origin from an Act of Edward
the Sixth. lie assured the House, that he had in his hand the
other die; a licence to a public-house, under the hand of a well-
' known eminent citizen of former times, he meant Praise-God
Barebone,—(a laugh)—that house had been eminent in the sale
Of good beer from the days of that individual down to the pre-
sent. But he maintained that no policy founded on public
convenience could be-tolerated- should injure private
interests. If so; what would hate become of the public cre-
ditor ? The fact was, that this motion of his Hon. and Learned
Friend was an attempt, a 'well-meant attempt no doubt, on
his part, -to -relieve the agriculturists from that portion of
distress which pressed upon them. That was no doubt a
strong interest ; but he was sure it would never be tolerated
that one class should be made to Suffer the burdens which pro-:
perly belonged to another. The agriculturists, he believed,
did not back his Hon. Friend—they were too manly and gene-
rous to wish others to be ruined in order to relieve them. An-
other evil of-this Bill would be, that the number of excise of-•
cers must be increased. With regard to the morality of the
question, let the House recollect the different checks of cha-
racter' and property upon the publican, under the present
system, and look at the effect of irresponsible individuals, of
all descriptions, having it in their power to take out an excise
licence., lie must sepia advert. to the „period at which the Bill
was brought in, and he would use the words of his Hon. Friend
on-that subject. It was only the other day, that speaking of
a. Bill brought in he said :--They all knew what was the mean-
ing ofintroducing a measure on the 10th of July. It meant an op-
ressive law, discussions to empty benches, in short hot weather
legislation, and quite out of season. This, too, was the way. he
(Mr, Buxton) designated the Act of his Hon. Friend. This *as
an oppressive measure—it was for the largest confiscation of
property ever attempted by such means. It would, if admit.
ted, lead to frauds upon the Revenue, destruction of private
property, and immorality.—(Hear !)
Here seven or eight Members rose at once; but all gave
way to
Mr. BROUGHAM.—He rose- to correct his Hon. Friend's
misconception of his .meaning about measures brought in 'at
this period of the Session. All that he had said applied to the
intention that such measures should pass sub silentio. He was
sorry to stand even thus long betwixt his Hon. Friend, and, the
.impatience of the _House, to answer bins, for which he had
furnished ample materials.
Mr. HUSKISSON confessed that he was fully impressed by
the weight Of the argument which the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down set out with, with respect to the lateness of
,
' the Session. He did not think the 18th of July the proper day
for such a Bill as this, and as one friendly to' the principle of
the Bill, he really would beg leave to recommend to the Hon.
and Learned Genileman to withdraw his Bill for the present,
lest by meeting with a negative, it should come prejudiced to
discussion ata future period. Bia with regard to the argu-
ments of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, he
seemed to argue that it had always been the policy of the law
to countenance a monopoly of the article. He, however, had
always considered licenses and such like, for instance the assize
of bread, were instituted alone for the benefit, and with a view
to the comforts of the consumer.--(Hear !)—And as to vested
rights, and the analogy of the Hon. Member with the case of
the public creditor, it had nothing to do with the present ques-
tion. They stood upon different grounds altogether ; for, ac-
cording to thejtion. Member's theory of vested rights, it would
be an invasion pf watermen's rights to build a bridge over the
River, or to work a steam vessel.—(Hear, hear o—He really
thought the Hon. Gentleman had a little exaggerated when lie
talked of 50,000 individuals being ruined. They were there to
legislate for the public good, which the notions of the Hon.
Member about vested rights would go entirely to check. Still
less could he countenance the word confiscation applied by the
Hon. Member to this Bill. -The restraint with respect to the
sale of beer was given for the purposes of morality ; but it had
been converted to altogether a different purpose, approaching
to something like monopoly. But that never could justify a
title being set up to such a monopoly. By the disappearance
of drunkenness, which any one who had lived. as long as he
had, could not fail to have observed, a great prolongation of
life had accrued to the humbler classes of people, with a great
improvement in their comforts. It was necessary, therefore,
to look with caution at any change in the system which br6ught
about such advantages. He again recommended the Hon. and
Leained Gentleman not to pre'ss his. Bill in its present crude
state; to withdraw it and endeavour to ascertain, during the
recess, whether or not this Bill would improve the revenue,
and to what extent. He wished he would also estimate the ex-
tent of its operation upon the habits of the people, and also
upon- the property at present concerned in the trade.
Mr. Alderman WOOD apologised to the House for trou-
bling them upon this subject, as out of the 44,000 persons who
would be affected by this Bill, 4,000 were his constituents.—
He wished his Hon. Friend would shew what benefit was tobe
derived from this measure. The evils of it had been suffi-
ciently pOinted out, for it certainly would be the cause of ruin
to a great number. To illustrate the feeling'of the trade at the
prOposition of his Hon. and Learned Friend, he only put it se
his own feelings how he would feel, were it proposed to'admit
the inferior practitioners in the law to the practice of the Courts.
(A laugh.)-He was sure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would not like that. He knew that Solicitors had been allowed
to practise as Counsel in Cornwall, and that gave great offence
to the Gentlemen of the Long Robe. Ruin, he knew, would
'be hiought upon many respectable widows and others, were
this influx into the trade permitted. He hoped, therefore, the
House would let- the present system go on, from which every
possible benefit was derived. He should not move that the
Bill be read that day three months, because he believed it was
the intention of his Hon. Friend to withdraw the Bill for the
present Session.
Mr. BROUGHAM said lie had felt himself bound, with re-
ference to some previous measures, to push the Bill on to its
present stage in this Session, or he certainly should not have
selected so late a period of it. He was not, therefore, insensi-
ble to the weight of the argument for postponing it. The mass
of interest that it created had made him desire to hear the ar-

On the Order of the Day having been read, for the further
consideration of the Canada Trade Bill it was ordered that the
Bill should be re-committed:
Mr. WILMOT, in moving that the Speaker do leave the
Chair, said that the importance of the measure which he had
now to introduce to the notice of the House, made it, necessary
for him to trespass for some time on the attention of the House'.
The matter of the Bill before them might, he -brought under
three heads : the first part to alter the constitution of the pro-
vinces of Canada, which had been established by the Act of
1791, better known by the name of the Canada Act; the se-
cond, to apply to Canada the principles of an extension of free
trade, which had been sanctioned by the Bills of his Right Bon.
Friend (Mr. Wallace); the third and last to settle the appro-
priation of duties between the two Provinces of Upper and
Lower Canada. The last of these in order he should consider
first, because it was the anomalous position of the provinces
in reference to these duties that had led to the necessity
of remedial measures. It was known to the House, that
when the French Province of Canada was conquered by the
British arms, the Criminal Law of England was intro-
-duced into the conquered country, and that the Civil Law of
France was suffered to remain, modified by .a: Procla-
mation issued in 1763, and by . various Ordinances sub-
sequently made. The alterations introduced into the French
law by these Ordinances, led to anomalies in the I lavi,
which were remedied by the Canada Act of 1774, which re-
stored the French Civil Law to the Province. From 1774 to
1791, the Government of the Province had been carried on by
a Governor and a numerous Executive Council, from 17 to 23
persons, who had not the power of local taxation, the taxes
being imposed by the Parliament of Great Britain. Previously
to 1791, after the American war, the upper part of the Pro-
vinces which had been comprehended under the general name
of Canada, but which was not inhabited, was "-colonized by
American loyalists. In 1791, the Quebec Act was passed,
the debates on which took place amidst circumstances which
were interesting to every Englishman who studied the history
of his country, as they produced the difference between two
great men, tMr. Fox and Mr. Burke. The colony was by
Act divided into two-provinces, Upper and Lower Canada.-,-
This division was objected to by Mr. Fox, 'and it was de-
fended on the ground that the inhabitants of the upper part of
Canada were as 9 to I Englishmen, and that it would be unjust
to subject them to the same law as the lower province. At the
same time when separate provinces were erected, an arrangement-
was made respecting the duties. levied in the port of Quebec,
which was the common inlet to both provinces. The duties
upon imports into Upper Canada did not amount to more than
one-eighth of the duties on imports into Lower Canada ; and
it was therefore considered that the province of Upper Canada
was not entitled to more than one-eighth of the revenue. This
arrangement continued up to the year 1797. From that period
to the year 1817, the principle of examination by Custom-house
officers, was adopted, in order to ascertain the proportion of re-
venue which Upper Canada was entitled to receive ; but this
practice was found so extremely inconvenient that it was soon
abandoned, and a tifth portion of the duties was assigned to tip-
per Canada, or a period of 2 years. At the end of this period

Commissioners were appointed to regulate the proportion of re-
venue to be assigned to each of these provinces ; but notwith-
standing all the diligence Of those Commissionersi.it was found
impoisible to come to'a'fair adjustment of the clainis of the two
colonies. The consequence was that Upper Canada had been
deprived of her fair proportion bf revenue ; and it was one of the
objects of this bill tOremedy this grievance 'by supplying the
means of arbitration. ' When it appeared to be the deliberate
opinion, of the Comniissioners of Lower Canada, that they could
arrive at no principle of adjustment, which was Elea), to be sa-
tisfactory to boot colonies, it was natural for the Government
orthia country to consider Whether some measures might not be
adopted, *hieh, by uniting 'the two proviriees, and incorpo-
rating their legislatures, 'Might consolidate' the interests of 'the
two Colonies: Such a measure was suggtsted, not less by gene:
ral principles of eXpediehey, than by the pressing " necessity
arising out of the difficulty of adjusting the claiMs of the two a
Colonies. He benied leaVe to refer to a report of a debate
on this subject, which took place in that House in April;
1791, in which Mr. Fox declared his approbation of the policy
of uniting the two provinces of Upper and Lower Canada._
Mr. Pitt, in his reply to Mr. Fox on that occasion, stated;
that ,if the Aalembiy were not properly constituted, it
was subject to revision, and that there was nothing. to hin:
der the Parliament of Great Ittitain from correcting any
thing 'whieh might appear to want correction. lie agreed
in the abstract principles of Mr. Fox, but thought that they
could not conveniently be carried into effect at that period. The
only 'object of the present measure was to bring the two Colo-
nies into a closer union, by incorporating the two Legislatures,
so. that the English language, and the spirit Of the-English Con-
stitution, rpight be more completely diffused among all classes
of their population. No "rights or privileges now enjoyed by
any._persons,ein either of the provinces, would be in the slight-
est degree affected by the present measure. There was a clause
in the Bill which gave the Representatives of the Executive Goa
vernment a right to speak in the House of Assembly.—There
was another clause establishing a qualification for the persons
elected, a p'rOvisjon which had been omitted in the first Act.
The sum fixed upon as a qualification was, however, such as
would in no degree diminish the general competition for such a
situation,which ought to exist among a free people. There were
two declaratory clauses, relating to the clergy and the feudal
tenures, the object of which was to abolish a system of property
so utterly repugnant to every sound principle of political eco-,
nomy. „in the clauses relating to trade, the sane poliesnwhich
had been pursued in the Bill regulating the trade of the West
India Colonies had been applied to the inland trade of the
Canadas. A draivback was allowed on rum imported front
the West Indies, when exported again from the Canadas, to
Which he apprehended no objection would be made. He had
now, adverted to the general objects of the measure, the details
of which would be more conveniently discussed in the Com- ,
inittee. An objection had been made to this measure on the
ground that the feelings and opinions of the people had not been
consulted but he could assure the House that every means
had been taken to procure the best information an this subject,
that the measure Was deemed to be decidedly beneficial to both
provinces, and that it had received the complete sanction of
those who, from their position and experience, were best quali-
fied to appreciate its merits. He Concluded by moving that the
Speaker do now leave the Chair.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH, in rising to offer some ob-
servations after the very able and perspicuous speech of the
Hon. Gentleman; to which he had listened with pleasure,
hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would not impute it to disre.
spect, .if he should not advert more frequently than it was his
intention to do, to the statements and arguments which had
been advanced by him. So far front doing this from disrespect,
he could assure the lion. Gentleman that in the regulations
proposed he entirely concurred, and of the opinions advanced
he fully approved. Two Bills of the last reign had been re-
ferred to, which were memorable for the periods in which they
were passed. The one had been passed
.when the American
war was near its close ; the other, when the great confederacy
Was formed against the French revolution. No event of similar
importance or interest appeared to be connected with this Bill.
From the state of attendance in the House, it appeared that
now little good was expected, and little evil to be apprehended;
from its principle or operation. He felt the greatest distrust of
a measure introduced for discussion the first time on the 18th
of July,—(Hear, hear,)--and a measure incorporating two
legislatures—abolishing the legielattires of two provinces, and
crating a third. Ile felt that-these considerations afforded an
irresistible claim on his :Nlajeatv's Government, at whose mercy
he knew he was for the amendment which, he should move.
these considerations fortified his objections to the present pass:
ing of the hill. (blear, head!)—His object was only to delay
the incorporation for six months. To every other part of the
measure he had objection. There were three distinct objects
proposed. First, to apply to the trade of Canada the prin.;
elide which he highly approved of in the West India Bill.
2d, To distribute the revenue collected at the port of Que-
bec, according to the commerce of the provinces. 3d, -The
incorporation of the legislatures,- and the union of the two pro-
vinces. This last part, it was to which he objected, and he
would move as an Amendment, that it be an instruction to
the Committee to separate this part from the other two parts.
—The other two parts might be carried through Parliament
without any delay. It was only on the incorporation of the
two legislatureS, and the union of the two provinces, that
he called upon the House to pause. On the 18th of July, in so'
thin a House, ought they in decency to enter on a proposition
incorporating two great provinces ?—(Hear I) The Right
Hon. Member for Chichester I\lr. HuAisson) to whom he never
failed to listen without attention, and to whom he never listened
without receiving instruction, had this night put it to an Hon.
and Learned "i.'nend of his (Mr. Brougham) to delay a Bill
of which the Right Honourable Gentleman approved. If delay
were due to publicans and brewers, whom he respected, and
whose interests and property were of great magnitude, at least
the same tenderness was due to the rights and privileges, the
feelings anti opinions, the very prejudices, of two great provinces
who had no representatives in this country, who had had no op-
portunity ofloo':.ing their table with petitions, but who were to be.
taken by surprise, and to have the whole system and constitution
of their government altered,without a single statement or opinion
from them.—(Hear !)—He warned any Honourable Member
who.might do him the honour to reply to his observations, not
to descend to so paltry an expedient as misrepresentation of his
meaning. He entered not at all here into a philosophical con-
sideration of the abstract right of the people to representation.
He mooted no question respecting the right of Parliament.—
He, on the contrary was of opinion that such power did exist
in Parliament. The position of the Parliament, as the head
of the great English confederacy, which embraced rich and
powerful colonies extended over all parts of the globe, was a
dignified and noble position. The power which such a posi-
tion conferred was to be exercised with great moderation—with
uniform forbearance, with every regard to the feelings and in-
terests of all classes and parties. It was a power reserved for
extraordinary emergencies; for reconciling contending interests,
above all, for the correction of acts of dereliction or oppression
on the part of Provincial Governments.—(Hear !)—He there-
fore clung to the remnant of that great power which once ex-
tended over what was now a great empire, but of which that
splendid portion was for ever lost.—( Hear !)—lt Mightnot prove
a loss to this country to be deprived of that part of its power, but
he was entitled to say, that its loss was a dishonour to the
councils which occasioned it.—(Hear !)—The Hon. Gent. had
referred to an expression in the Act of the 31st' of the late King;
and to the authority of a great Statesman, to prove that ,the
act might be repealed. The reference was unnecessary. No
law was irreversible. The question was the expediency of the
measure. It was not only the measure itself that was to be con-
sidered, hut the tendency and the example, of that measure.
It was a question of as great magnitude as-could be proposed to
that House : it involved the colonial policy which was requital
by the present age. All colonies, especially those of Nott:i
America, were to be retained only by giving them loose reins.
.--(Hear.)—When colonies of European origin were attempted
to be restrained by coercion and terror, we only accelerated what
we wished to prevent, and rendered,adaerse what might be arni:
cable.( Hear.)—He did not object to the union : it might be
proper, desirable, and amicable. The question was not what
was desirable and right, but the tendency and example of pto-,
ceeding with this Bill. His first great objection was, that this
was the first 'union of Legislatures ever attempted by this coun-
try. There was not one exception. The attempt to suppress
the Legislature of Massachusets provoked the insurrection of
all North. America. There had been no union of Legislatures
in the West Indies. Wherever the least trace of a Legislature
had ever existed, there it still remained. There hackneverbeen
a measure approaching to this ; there had been none after in-
quiry and deliberation. The pettiest corporation in England
could not be suppresed without full inquiry. But this mea-
sure was founded upon mere general argument and expe-
diency. The political and legal existence of two colonies was
to be affected upon general reasoning. He asked whether tiara
was any information ? It might be a beneficial measure in

rooms ots the English language and English laws, .and in
'removing oppressive tenures ; but what evidence had they to
establish thee ? lie said nothing of what he would call the nn-
morality of the measure ; but was it not rash not to give six
months— not to pay that price for the information which they.
-could net fail to obtain ? It might be inconvenient• for the co-
lonists to continue as they were ; but let it be known that they
Mt it ;nconvenient. Let them then deliberate and legislate
. consistently with their duties to the Colonies. He now only
contended for the valise of giving notice to supply us with the
knowledge which we wanted. He again protested against being
misrepresented ; but he asked any Statesman whether the feel-
ings and inclinations of the inhabitants were not an ingredient
in the problem of incorporation ?—(Hear.)—Their feelings and
-wishes, their opinions and inclinationcwe were bound to consult
for two reasons—first, because it was essential to their happi-
ness ; 2dly, because it was essential to the security of our au-
thority.—(Hear.}.—lf we incorporated them without knowing
their feelings—if we showed a disregard of what the most ab-
.- solute of the maxims of Government required us to respect, we
injured our own authority. The most absolute Monarch, if by
miracle he should he enlightened with reason and regard to
common sense, would not neglect this duty. Frederick the
Se. oat', or any other Monarch who 'acted on the rigour of the
roonarcnical principle, would not, with safety to himself,
neglect it. He said, then, that the inhabitants were en-
titled to be heard before their Legislature could be changed,
on the 'maxims by which alone our Colonial dominion was
maintained: By legislating thus in the last week of the
Session, they seemed .as if they were afraid cif learning the.
opinion of those for whom they would legislate. He hoped this
was not the object of the alarming precipitations, but it was
hardly intelligible on any other principle. What. security
would any other Colony have that its Legislature would
not be abo!ished ? What security that a States•Gentral ,
of the West India islands would not be appointed in a House
. of 30 or 40 Members at the end of a Session ? He felt the force
eof those arguments so strongly, that he was ashamed to press
. any thing in addition. He had heard nothing applicable to the
urgency of the measure ; nothing to show any necessity for im-
mediately pressing it. Why, if a simple- private were
_brought into the House, would any 11enrier wish to hurry it
through its several stages, without giving time to the parties
affected to oppose it if they thought fit ? Men interested in
such a case would be heard by their Counsel and by their wit-
nesses ; and was the House prepared to treat the Colonies with
such scorn as to deny them that discussion which was granted
to a road bill or to a right of way ? Talk of passing such •
a measure without hearing the people of Lower' Canada
upon it ! How could the House tell that • it was not a
measure opposed at every point to their wishes and to,
their feelings ? Say it was opposed only to their pre-
judices, and still they were entitled to be heard: Ho*
could the House know that such an Act as was proposed
might net subvert the loyalty of the Canadians, and destroy
their attachment to the Mother Country ? Hon. Gentlennen
were bearing witness to the good conduct of the Canadians dur-
ing the contest between England and America: it was but a
sorry mode of recompensing that good conduct to disregard
alike their interests and their opinions, and to unite two of their
provinces without consulting them upon the subject. He (Sir
J. Mackintosh) did claim for the inhabitants of the Colonies a
more thanordinary share of the attention of Parliament.. As
their situation precluded them -from being actually represented.
in the House, there was the more necessity for showing them
- that they were morally represented there. Let it be noted, that
• the circumstances of the present time made connexions between
colonies and mother countries peculiarly important. So long
as the parent state showed.a proper regard for the rights of her
distant dependents—salong as those dependents felt the security
and the advantage of being connected with a mighty empire, so
long they would be held in the strong trammels of interest and
, attachment. Undensuch circumstances they might, in the.fulness
of time, he parted from the parent country; but the separation
- would be natural, not premature--'friendly, instead of hostile.
The lighter the dominion, the longer it would last; the more easily
would a connexion of empire be succeeded by a connexion of af-
fection and mutual advantage—by a connexion founded upon si-
'hilarity of object and situation—upon community of privilege,
of language, and of blood. He was sorry to take up the atten-
etion of the House, but there were some maxims of colonial
policy against the principle of which hewas bound to enter his
dissent. Ile denied that this count!), had a right to give up
any colony, so long as that colony continued faithful in its attach-
ment to her. As long as the leaue continued to be observed on
• the one side, he did hold it tote, in justice, indissoluble by
the other nor should he ever be persuaoleti that the notion of
• governing distant colonies by force, of looking to coercion rather
thah conciliation for maintaining them, was not folly upoo all
principle, upon all probability, and upon all-experience. Feel-
-mg :that to. pass the •incorporating part of the-,act in question
without eonsulthig with the provinces, would be unworthy of
- the character of the House, and of the country, he (Sir J.
Mackintosh) would conclude by moving that instructions
should be given to the Committee to separate the bill into two
bills ' • the one to embrace the commercial regulations proposed,
and the other to consist of the intended union between the pro-
vinces
Mr. ELLTCE began by claimine the indulgence of the House
for rising to follow the Hon. and Learned Member who had
last spoken. He acquiesced in the general principles which
that Hon. Member had laid down ; but he considered the pre-
sent bill as lying a little out of their scope. The measure took
no rights away from the people of Canada 2 it merely gave to
them all the rights now enjoyed Only by a part. Circumstances
had arisen in the colonies, which made it imperative upon Go-
vernment to interfere ; and -the only question, in point of fact,
was, whether a measure of general amendment was not the
litic course of proceeding? Let it be remembered, that Mr.
Fox had opposed the division of the provinces in question,
and hact•foeetold that the higher State would be oppressed and
• injured by the lower. Let it be remembered, that Lord
tcrenvilie, 'the supporter of •the division, had said, " When
those mischiefs do ocear, Parliament may proceed to amend-
ment and alteration."—The grievances predicted by Mr. Fox
.had now occurred, and,were the subject of complaint. Let Hon.
Gentlemen who deniedthe remedy look at the present posture of
. affairs. The Assembly of-Lower Canada had denied the right of
• stiffragee to any of the new settlements -; and the effect of that
was, that party, entirely French,' held the legislative power over
• both provinces. Let it be remembered that the French inhabi-
tants of the colony were no' longer, as compared with the Eng-
lish, in the great proportien of .40 to one; the English amounted
now to two-fifths of the population ; and they had the' advan-
tages of eduoation add general information a hundred to one
over the French: The suspension of the measure would only
give an opportunity to interested parties of raising jealousies and
dissension ; its immediate enactment would tend to the happi-
ness, to the interest, and to the mutual good understanding of
both the provinces.
Mr. CALCRAFT could not give a silent vote on the ems-
- . don. , He considered the proposition rash, and likely to produce
ill blood in the Colony. Fle did not dispute .'he wisdom of the
measure in principle, but he thought the parties most deeply
interested ought to have been consulted. The measure was
;without precedent '; and surely there was time enough to have
„.made inquiry
,whether the Colonists were satisfied, and that the
inouiry was not made was matter ofisuspicion. He complained
.. of the indifference of the House to this measure. It was won-
, derful that a House, consisting of -less than forty Members,
should legislate for the Canadians, and he trusted that under
such circumstances Ministers would not press the measure.
Mr. BRIGHT charged the advocate.; of the measure with
• sophistry. The Honourable Member then 'proceeded to con-
tend that the great men who had debated the former Act for
the regulation of the Constitution of Canada had proceeded upon
the hypotheses which were now realized, and that even upon
the assumption of these as facts, they had intended the Act to
be permanent. That was the view which all those who had
reasoned on, the former Act took. It was, therefore, he
thought, most impolitic to-repeal that Act by a measure like
the present, which, though he knew it was long in contem-
plation, was, as far as the House was concerned, a hasty
• measure. 'Why was it, he would ask, delayed until the
present period of the Session, when the Circuits had com-
menced, and when most •of those Members who would be
-likely to take an active part in the discussion were unavoid-
...ably absent ? This was, he' contended, taking the House,
ao it was also taking the people of Canada,. by eurprise. The
House was now called upon to take away, almost without notice,
-that which it had deliberately given. And after this, lie would
ask, what opinion could the Canadians form of this Legislature o
What, if they had a spark of feeling or spirit, and they were, it
• would not be denied, a most valiant people, what could they
think of a, constitution which was thus as arbitrarily given as
~their previous constitution had been arbitrarily taken away ?
• They could have no respect for. a constitution ( whatever might
be i.o form) given under such circumstances. It was said that
~the opinions of some persons of Upper Canada had been taken
on this BilL But whose opinions ? He had heard of the
Attorney-General of Upper Canada having been examined,
but then this was (and it could not be denied) to all intents
and purposes an Upper Canada Bill.' In Upper Canada
.• the majority were Protestants ; in Lower Canada, they were
Roman Catholics.; but the object of this Bill 'was to give
the majority to the Protestants. This he had heard.; and it' he
•was wrong, the fault was that of the secretary for the colonies,
. who had not leid full information on the subject before the
House. But why not examine and inquire into the sentiments
of the people of Lower Canada ? They'ought to be equally con-
- suited on this measure. The House ought to hear both sides
.before they decided. .There was a sentence of Locke which was
• much relied upon by the Americans during the war, and it was
that no man had a right.to that which another had a right
to take from him." Now.if we had a right to take away their
. constitution•from the Canadians, what right had they which
• could be worth contending for? Would they not contend against
• Aliceaesuroption of such .a. right ? lb.:would enter his protest

aks.nst tl e B:11, because it was unjust in principle, and be-
caese if we had a right to deprive Canada of her constitution,
why no,/ also Jamaica and the other islands, for the same reas
sorting would apply to all ? The Hon. Member then went on to
contend, that there was no precedent of England depriving her
colonies o: their charter, in consequence of their not acting in
strict accordance with the mother country. ~
Mr. GOULBURN observed, that if he were of opinion that
the proposed measure was fraught with the injustice which those
Honourable Members who opposed it had applied to it, he
would have been the last man in that House to give it his sup-
port. He had felt it his duty too frequently to stand up in de-
fence of the rights and privileges of the'people of Canada in that
11 cntse, when lie thought those rightsassailed by propositions from
Gentlemen on the opposite side, to believe that his sincerity on that
point could be doubted. The objections urged that night to the
Bill, before the llouse, were in a great prOportion founded on a
misconception of its object. It did not, as was assumed by its
opponents, contemplate 'any such change as they assumed. It
did not violate therepresentative character of the Canadian Con-
stitution—it made no infringement on the rights and privileges of
the people—neither did it impair the rights and privileges of the
representative assembly when convened in deliberation. As it
had no such object, it was almost needless to add, that there ex-
isted no grounds for those arguments, which proceeded on the
supposition, that by carrying the present measure they changed
the Government of Canada from a free to an arbitrary system.
The great object of the Bill was to provide for an incorporating
union between the two provinces. The question then resolved
itself into three parts. First, whether the Parliament pos-
sessed the power to interfere ; secondly, whether there existed
that expediency which justified that interference ; and, lastly,
whether the present advanced period of the Session was of itself
a sufficient argument to delay an interference which, on every
other ground, would be found to be most beneficial ? As to
the first point, it was undisputed that Parliament possessed the
power. The Constitution of Canada rested on an Act of Par-
liament, which Act of Parliament had destroyed the pre-exist-
ing Constitution of that Colony. It was evident that on the
ground of permanence alone; there existed a very material dif-
ference between the relation in which the legislature. of this
country stood with respect to Canada, and,that An which it stood
towards our West India Colonies. The next point he had to
consider was, whether or not there existed that state expediency
which demanded such an interference ? An Hon. Member
(Mr. Ellice) had stated the actual state of things as they existed
in the relation between the Upper and Lower Provinces of
Canada. It was also admitted that the consideration of high
commercial interests would justify such an interference. But
not only did these great interests demand such an interference,
but he must be allowed to say, it became necessary for the very
peace and tranquillity of these provinces, as measures had al-.
ready been taken which had preducedgreat irritation, and if not
regulated by the superintendence of the Parliament of Great Bri-
tam, would ultimately promote hostility between the Upper and
Lower 'Provinces. In the very Act of the 31st of Geo. 111.,
the Act which gave to Canada a representative'system, the sub-
sequent interposition of the Legislature of Great Britain was
contemplated, as would appear from a clause. which gave such
a power to the King, and his heirs and successors, from time
to time to interpose—( Here the Right Honourable Gentle,
than proceeded amidst cries of " Hear ! read, read!" to state
the precise words of the clause)—together with the advice
and consent of the Legislative Assemblies of the 'Pro-
vinces of Canada.—(Hear, hear ! from the opponents of
the Bill.)—In subsequent Statutes, with respect to Canada,
Parliament had acted upon that principle. It had done
so at no very remote distance of time, when it made a new ar-
rangement of the territorial limits of these Provinces. When
the Act of the 31st of George 111. passed, there were certain
islands then acknowledged within the limits of these Provinces,
but which were, by a subsequent Act of Parliament, transferred
to the Government of Newfoundland. And what made this.
transfer a more strong illustration of the right of Parliament was,
that the population of these islands were detached from a repre-
sentative system to a Government in no degree analogous. With
respect to the last ground, namely, the time at which the mea-
sure was pro tosed, he mast be allowed to state, that though he had
not heard his Hon. Frierd who introduced the measure (Mr..
Wilmot) cpen it to that House, yet he was convinced, from his
talents and character, that he fully Manifested the necessity and
expediency of the measure. The objection as ,to the period at
which it was introduced was too frequently an objection, which,
in the lack of all other argument, was urged to defeat a Bill,
the beneficial tendency of which could not be controverted. It
was said that such a measure ought not to be7pressed against the
wishes of the Colonists, but when dissensions existed, it was im-
possible that a disinclination in one of the.
,parties, should
not exist to that interposition of - the Parliament, which
ought not to be delayed, through a deference to n their re-
pugnance, the sacrifice of their common interests. He felt
that to those. interests the consolidation of the two Assem-
blies was most essential. These Provinces were situated
on the lorders; of an ambitious, because a Republican, State;
and he felt it his duty not to allow such a State (we under-
stood the Right Honour tole Gentleman to say if an enemy) to
take advantage of those dissensions to foment them, with the
view of profiting by them in a state of hostility: The case of
Massachusetts,__ as introduced by the Honourable and Learned
Member for Knaresborough (Sir J. Mackintosh), was not in
his opinion tenable ; and on the grounds on which it was ap-
plied, he was inclined to view it rather in favour of the present
measure than as hostile to it. .

Mr.-DENMAN said, lie limited his objections to the present
measure, on the simple ground of the advanced period of the
Session, and the vet.), thin attendanceof Members. He confessed
himself, and he believed a great proportion of those who heard
him were, until that night, -wholly ignorant of the object of the
Bill. Who that looked to the orders of the day, and to the
title of, the Bill in these orders, could have contemplated that it '
had for its objec to destroy the existence of one of the two Le-
gislative Assemblies of Canada; or that a measure leading to
such an important change in the government of these Colonies
was about to be discussed on the very eve of the prorogation?-
-(Hear !)--It was irritating, provoking, and dangerous, to in-
flict upon any colony, without its consent, such an important
change: lie contended the Colony ought to be heard by Conn-
sel at the Bar; and observed that his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber for Bristol, was justified in the. strong' opposition to this
measure which he threatened to give.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY lamented very much
that the measure had not been brought before that House at an
earlier period of the Session ; but be did not think that the late-
ness of the Session ought to prevent the 'passing of an Act that
!night be deemed of importance. His Right Hon. Friend had
introduced the measure so early as May last, and had been only
prevented passing, it by the unexpected accumulation of other
important business. (Lord Londonderry) went along with
the Honourable Gentleman on the expediency as well as the
policy of treating our colonies' with tenderness and indulgence;
and the population of no colony had such claims upon the con-
sideration of this country as that of Canada. The measure of
1791, which was one of more importance than the present, was first
opened to Parliament in April, and received the Royal Assent
in June, affording no time to the people of Canada for bringing
before the House their Complaints, if any they had, and alibi-tied
no time for the examination of witnesses at the har. He denied
that it was any want of consideration to Canada to pass a mea-
sure which the wisdom of Parliament decided was one likely to
prove beneficial to that colony. The threat of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite to oppose the measure in every stage, was one which, if
carried into effect, must certainly be productive of inconvenience.
But if he could prove to those Hon. Gentlemen, that the mea-
sure was one which appeared desirable not only to-his Majesty's
Ministers but to Canada, and that much injury would arise
should the passing of the Bill this Session be prevented, he was
sure he might reckon upon the acquiescence of those Hon. Gen-
tlemen of the opposition.—(Hear, hear!)—He could not agree
with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the interests of the
people- would unnecessarily be sacrificed by their union and
consolidation: It was his conviction, that' the population of
Canada would receive the Bill with joy and gratitude, if they
believed it was one in which Honourable Gentlemen of both
sides of that House concurred. He still hoped that when Hon.
Gentlemen opposite came to consider - the importance of the
measure to Canada, they would in their consciences believe
that, in passing that -Bill, they would render 'essential service
to that Colony —(Hear, hear !)
Mr. CALCRAFT explained.
• Mr. BERNAL opposed the Bill. The Hon. Member con-
tended that deliberation was required in all discussions respect-
ing the Colonies. The basis of such a measure as that before
the House ought to rest .upon Petitions from the people of
Canada. The mere assertion of Ministers that the measure
was required, could not satisfy the House.
Mr. NVILSON .opposed the measure on the ground that it
came too late in the Session before Parliament. great dif-
ference of opinion upon the progress of the bill would not be
satisfaCtory to the people of Canada if it should pass.
Mr. WILMOT-briefly replied:
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Motion .
For the Amendment
• Majority .

_34

The Bill then went thrOugh a Committee, the Chairman re-
ported piogress, and the Bill was ordered to be 'recommitted on
Tuesday.
The Bill for authorizing advances on Public Works in Ire-
land was read a third time and passed. •
The LORD ADVOCATE moved the third reading of the
Royal Scotch Burghs Bill. •
Mr. HUME opposed the Bill, and the gallery was cleared
for a division ; but there not being forty Members present, the
House adjourned at a-QuAnTn to Two,o'Cwoc. •

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.

SPAIN:

MADRID, JULY 9.—There, is much talk of an
assemblage of the Corps Diplomatique which
took place on the 6th at tire residence,of the English
Ambassador. It appears that these Ministers were
desirous of preparing in common a species of
Proces Verbal of the events passing in our capi-
tal, to send to all the Courts of Europe.

The Austrian Ambassador and the Ambassa-
dor of another Power proposed that this Note
should commence by declaring, that the disor-
ders which agitate Madrid, and which endanger
the life of the King and the security of his
Throne, were caused by the liberal faction, po-
pular ideas, and the manoeuvres of secret so-
cieties. Mr. Forsyth, the American Charge
d'Affaires, said, that not only he would not put
his signature to a document so contrary to truth,
but, that in the event-of the Note being so pre-
pared, he would contraditt it in his own name
in the face of all Europe; that he had wit-
nessed all the events, and that every where
he ,had seen much patience and moderation on
the part of the Liberales, and all the excesses,
all the disorders in the ranks of those who pre-
tended to be Royalists. Ile added, that the
King was the prisoner of those who pretended to
espouse his cause—that his life was continually
placed in danger by those who say that-his Ma-
jesty deceives and compromises them, and that
this was the truth, and the language which ought
to be held to the Cabinets of Europe. This
speech, was approved of by the majority of the
Diplomatists, and the Note was prepared upon
those bases. It was signed by all the foreign
Ministers, except one, who, it is generally stated,
has demanded his passpoits.
PARIS, JULY 15.—Commercial letters received
yesterday from Madrid state, that after having
lost in all 350 men, killed and wounded, the
guards rallied out of Madrid, and the numerous
detachments of militia sent in pursuit of them,
did not venture to follow them into the plain. It
is presumed that they have taken the route of
Andalusia, where they will find' valorous auxi-
liaries in the Guerillas and in the Royal Carabi-
neers, who so energetically pronounced for their
legitimate Sovereign, against the revolutionary
usurpations. It is certain also that a great part
of the troops of the line in garrison at Madrid
were not desirous of takinc, part in the affair, but
they would have broken that neutrality, if the
movements of the Royalists had been combined
with/judgment and prudence.—Gazette de France.

JULY -16.—Letters from Perpignan of the
6th of July .say—" The fort' of Barcelona re-
ceives every day more troops.. The regiment of
Cadiz, 2,000 strong, that of Malaga, arid 800
.rneo 'from the interior of Spain, are on the extreme
frontier; they wait for additional forces to form
-definitively a cordon parallel to our's, in order to
arrest the insurgents, who endeavour to take.
refuge in France ; four companies of volunteers
raised in Barcelona, and maintained by that city,
are in pursuit of the defenders of the faith, who
have been defeated in several rencontres ; there
is no doubt that these four companies of young
volunteers will be sufficient to give chace to the
troop of
.Misas.—The Cuirassiers of Valencia
brought, on the 28th ult. into the fort of Mont
Joui, 11 factious. The 2d instant, some cavaliers
of the same corps took 34 prisoners,' amongSt
whom is Mucen senior, Ex-Secretary of Misas.
The first 11 are already condemned to be, shot,
-and three' others are to be put in the pillory.—
The Insurgents, who had penetrated into Na-
varre in the hope of raising that province, tire en-
tirely destroyed,--Fifteen thousand national
guards are marching upon Figueras, Rosas, and
Gerona. It is the commencement of a corps
d' armee, which is to be employed to watch the
movements of our Cordon.—Misas has reproached
a Commandant of our Cordon, with having per-
Mittel' the Constitutional soldiers to pass from
Lubia• to Purigarda. The Commandant, in re-
ply, warned him not to present himself again in
front of his lines, as he had received orders to
repel all the Insurgents who presented themselves
to a certain distance from the line.—lt is ex-
pected that' the Sea d'Urgel will be retaken. The
attack would have been already' made, but it was
feared the adjacent villages would be exposed to
the flames.: :Means will be adopted to cut off all
corrimunication with the besieged; who not having
provisions must be compelled to surrender. I
know not whether you are acquainted with an
infamous trait in the conduct of the defenders of
the faith. These brigands, on entering a village
by force, seized the Mayor, and fastening round
him a rope of straw from the feet to the neck;
they set fire to the lower part, and danced round
their-victim with atrocious shouts."--(Constitu-
tionnel.)

The Illoniteur published yesterday, respecting
Spain, the same detals which we read three days
since in the Revolutionary Journals of Paris,
that is to say, in its'recital we see the friends of
the King, the defenders of Royalty, faithful Spa-
niards, designated as rebels, factious, and traitors.
The Revolutionists, who in France only give
these names to men who combat for the esta-
blished order -of things, naturally give them to
Spaniards who combat like ourselves against
anarchy. But it seems to us that the official
Journal ought at least to modify the expressions a
little, if it is only out of respect to the Govern-
ment of which it is the organ ; for if the Spanish
Royalists are traitors, we see no reason why this
name should not also be given to the, French
Royalists.—(Quotidienne.)

Accounts from Ilolland state that the Dutch
Government has intimated to the Columbian Re.
public, that the moment any European Power
acknowledges them, they will be the first Power
to follow the example ; and in the mean time the
Colombian flag will be received in Holland. The
accounts also state, that M. ZEA is daily expected
there.

Accounts from the coast of Africa mention that
the Slave Trade continued with unabated activity,
notwithstanding the vigilance of the British-
cruisers under the command of Sir R. MENDS.—
Several vessels had, howeyer, been captured by
them.

IMPORTANT.

[Extract gfa Private Letter, received this morning from Paris
dated the 15th of July, at night.]

" The French Government has just concluded
a Contract for ten thousand horses foi the artit.
lery, Sze.; all the different Officers have been
ordered to their posts, and the Conscripts of the
year 1821 are ordered to join the Army. If this
does not look like war, I don't know what
does."

We received this morning the Paris Papers of
Tuesday. They contain no fresh intelligence