The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-02 00:00:00

73,7301. criminal prosecutions and other law charges
(Scotland).
63 991/ criminal prosecutions and other law charges
(Irelamd).
35,500/. for the expenses of the metropolitan police
(Dublin).
258,0001. for prosecutions at assix,s and quarter ses-
sions, formerly paid out of the county rates.
On the gross vote of 702,5231. for the expenses of law
and justice,
Mr. HENLEY observed that the expenses relating to
convicts were put in a different form from that in which
they had been accustomed to see them. This might be
more convenient, but it at thesame time rendered it diffi-
cult to compare the present with the previous years.
The aggregate expense appeared to him to have in-
creased.
Sir G. GREY—Not as compared with last year.
Mr. HENLEY said be observed, in page 16 of the
estimates a sum of 17,000/. to defray the expense of con li
-
fining and maintaining in probationary discipline 674
male convicts in county ga"ls in Great Britain under
sentence of transportation. until otherwise disposed of,
and he wished to know whether the expense per head
was greater or less than the expense at Pentonville,
Milbank, or Portland ?
Sir G. GREY said the charge to which the Hon, Mem-
ber
had adverted was the result of a recommendation of
the Committee on the Miscellaneous Estimates, who
stated it to be impossible to form an opinion of the ag-
grepte expenses with reference to convicts under the old
system. An experienced officer had been placed in com-
munication with several of these establishments. The
aggregate expense, no doubt, appeared to have increased,
but then the Hon. Gentleman would observe that a sum
of no less than 53,0001. had been transferred from the
navy estimates. Those and some other charge had, on
the recommendation of the Committee, been included in
the miscellaneous estimates. With regard to the sum of
17.000/. ler the maintenance of 674 male convicts in pro-
bationary discipline, to which the Hon. Member bad ad-
verted, it must be remembered that this stage of punish-
ment was attended with very considerable expense. A
revision of the expense connected with the various esta-
blishments to which the Hon. Member had referred was
in progress, the result of which he hoped would be to
secure greater equality.
Mr. HENLEY said, one other item, which appeared
to him extravagant, was the charge for the maintenance
of criminal lunatics. He found that the expense of
maintaining 111 patients in Bethlem Hospital was set
down at 3,8401., and he really could see no reason
why the charge in that establishment should be so much
beyond Ilanwell, or any other wall-conducted public
asylum.
Sir G. GREY said ho had had some communication
with the Governor of Bethlem Hospital, ands reduction
had taken place there this year. It must, however, be
obvious that the expense must be greater in an establish-
ment for criminal lunatics, where patients were confided
who had committed murder and other grave crimes, than
it would be in ordinary lunatic asylums.
On the vote of 125,0001. for public education in Greet
Britain,

Mr. HENLEY regretted the absence of the Honour-
able Member who had raised a discussion upon that
question in the previous year, and hoped that his now
not opposing the vote would not be understood as pre-
cluding him from taking any course he thought proper
on a future occasion if the question should be brought
in another form before the House. There was a very
considerable amount of feeling, and among a class whose
opinions were worthy of the attention of that House and
the country, with regard to that vote, and the impres-
sion was that it was not fairly administered by the Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) He would
,not go at length
into the question then, as he had not expected that the
vote would have come on that night; but be merely
wished to reserve to himself, when the matter was more
fully gone into, the right to take such a course as he
might think fit, because, so far as he had been able to
judge, a considerable portion of the community had great
reason to complain of the mode and manner in which the
grant was administered.

- The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 120,0001. for the commissioners of ria•
tional educatioon in Ireland,
Mr. GROGAN wished to call the attention of the
Committee to the fact that, although:these commissioners
received a very large sum of money per unnum for the
management of the education of a section of the people
of Ireland, they appeared to be very strangely employed.
He found a notice issued by them very lately
stating ;that they had prepared two volumes of
poems for the use of the children in these national
schools, the
poets from Chaucer down to the most recent period,
one containing biographies of all the
and the other containing selections from their poems.
And these were for the education of the poor children
in Ireland, who were most of them in a starving con-
dition. He thought they might be much more usefully
employed in making arrangements for the endowment of
schoolmistresses who could instruct the children, par-
ticularly the females, in useful work, such as em•
broidery, which had been done with the happiest affect
in the north of Ireland, as that species of work found a
very ready sale.
The vote was then agreed to as were also the fol-
lowing:-
10,0001. for the School of Design.
2,0061. for the sahriei and allowances of certain pro-
fessors of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

4,0001. for the University of London.
7,480/. for the Scottish University.
3001. for the Royal Irish Academy.
300/. for the Royal Hibernian Academy.
6,0001. for the Royal Dublin Society.
3,1001. for the Royal &NA Academical Institution.
36,2881. for the new buildings of the British Museum.
1,500/. to the trustees of the British Museum for anti-
quitieF..

a 1,5001. for the National Gallery.
Fir W. JOLLIFFE wished to know whether it was
intended to make any addition to the building in
order to provide room for the valuable pictures that had
lately been presented to the country ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER feared
he would hardly be justified in proposing any additional
sum for that purpose in the present circumstances of
the country. He quite agreed with the lion. Baronet
as to the desirableness of providing proper accornmoda-
eolaoggriecea survey.
dl
to; as were also,—
s,
tion, but, under the present circumstances, the Govern-
ment did not feel itself justified in proposing any addi
tional expense.
The o
071. vote
fo was
'
5,0001. for scientific works and experiments, and mag-
netic observatories at home and abroad.
2,8001. for completing the pedestal of the column in
Trafalgar-square to the memory of Lord Nelson.
4,0491. for the civil establishment of Bermuda.
2,0001. for the civil establishment of Prince Edward's
atshe then
geological
Island.
On the vote of 11,5781. for the ecclesiastical establish.
ments of British North America,
Mr. J. B. SMITH had a strong objection to the vote.
He thought those colonies ought to be able to support
their own Church, and he should be glad to know
whether the Government was making any arrangement
for the purpose. He would not go into the question of
the injustice of the vote, but leave that to the Canadians
themselves; but he certainly objected to a vote of that
kind for a religious sect comprising not one fifth of the
population of Canada.
Mr. HAWES observed that those votes terminated
with the lives of the present incumbents. It was a
special contract made by a previous Secretary of State,
and as the lives died off the vote would be reduced in
amount.

--------
The vote was then agreed to, as were
14,1021. for the Indian department in Canada.
2901. for the civil establishment of the Bahamas.
18,028/. for the governors of the West Indian colonies.
41,150/. for stipendiary justices of the West Indian
colonies and the Mauritius.
13 6801. for the civil establishments on the west coast
of Africa.
16,940/. fcr the island of St. Helena.
7,379/. for the settlement of West Australia.
01,076t3h/e. fvoortethe of s2co, t,toleomoie. nfotrotfhle'oorot Essington.
lonyofxe
Now
Zealand,
Mr. J. B. SMITH saw in the vote a sum of 600/. for
the Bishop of New Zealand. He -should like to know
whether the vote stood upon the same footing as that of
the Canadian vote, and that it would expire with the
bishop?
Mr. HAWES could not say that it stood upon the
same footing. At the same time be would observe that
the revenues of New Zealand were increasing so rapidly
that in a short time he hoped they would be enabled to
write to him as they had recently written to the Go-
vernor of Prince Edward's Island—that the colony should
take upon itself the civil charges of the colony.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE observed that the establishment
of the chief secretary was put down at 1 2001., and the
salary of the chief justice at 1,0004, while that of the
bishop was only 600 L
Mr. HAWES said the 6001. was not the whole of the
bishop's salary; the salary of the secretary was only 6001.
or 8001. per annum, the rest being the expenses of his
establishment.

Alter a few words from Mr. CARDWELL, the vote
was agreed to.

M 1,0231.
ofoßiDihEeNcivil establishment at Heligoland.
bitants in
5,7001. for the Falkland Islands.
of governing them, therefore, amounted to 351. per head,
which would feed and lodge them in that country. No
these
islaonbdsserdvieddnot that
excteheed nl6uom,bae nrdotfheinchoas-t
one could believe that these islands were of any value to
them. They had no trade, and no shipping whatever,
and he hoped the Government would be able to assure
them that the country would shortly be relieved from
that expense.
Mr. HAWES could not say that the vote would be
struck out of the estimates, although he hoped it would
be reduced. The Falkland Islands were not of any com-
mercial importance, but they were of great political im-
portance, in enabling vessels coming round Cape Horn to
put in and refit.
Mr. COBDEN said that the complaint was that ships
did not touch at those islands. He did not know what
were the political considerations that induced them to
expend all this money. The governor, it appeared, was
paid 8001. a year, the magistrate 400/., the clergyman
4001., the surgeon, 4001. The superintendent of cattle
was also paid a handsome salary, although no ships
would stop there to buy the meat.
The votes were then agreed to.
On the vote of 25,000/. for the British settlement of
Hong-Kong,
Mr. J. B. SMITH said that he found included in this
vote 7501. for the ecclesiastical establishment, which he
protested against.
Mr. HAWES said, as they had thought it expedient
to take possession of Hong-Kong, and had sent a Euro-
pean population to that colony, he did not think it un-
reasonable to make some provision for their religious
education. This estimate was considerably less than
that of the previous year, and he believed they would
be able to make a considerable further reduction in
future years,

Mr. V. SMITH reminded his Hon. Friend that the
Committee which had sat in 1847 had stated that the
establishment kept up in this colony was one of endless
expense. He complained of the great discrerancies
that existed in the salaries paid to the governor, the
secretary, and other officers in Hong-Kong, with those
paid to the same officers in Now Zealand and other colo-
nies, the amount paid to the former being about double
that paid to many others.
Mr. HAW ES said that there had been a gradual re-
duction effected in some of these salaries for several
years past. The Governor of Hong-Kong was no doubt
paid a salary of 6,0001. a year, but it should be recol-
lected that his duties were not simply confined to the
island of Hong• Kong—he was also superintendent of
the trade, which was most important in that part of the
world, and had an extensive jurisdiction over the whole
general establishment in China. He was also plenipo-
tentiary, representing the Crown there. It was a most
expensive Government, and the climate was by no means
favourable to health. On the contrary, New Zealand
was singularly salubrious.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that the Government
might have selected a much more healthy situation for
the settlement. He eh';uli like to hear some explana-
tion given in respect to the surveyor-general's duties. He
thought the ecclesiastical establishment highly necessary
there,_as prevention was better than cure.
Mr. MITCHELL suggested that the salariea of the
different officers referred to at Hong Kong ought to be
reduced one-hail. lie was certain the Government
would find no difficulty in procuring competent persons
to discharge the duties required from the respective
officers there, even if such reductions were effected.

Mr. M. GIBSON was surprised to find the traders so
slow in admitting the advantage of the trade of Hong-
Kong, if it were really so important as the lion. Gentle-
man seemed to think. Now he had heard persons inter-
ested in the trade of that colony say that the possession
of Hong-Kong was no benefit whatever to the trade of
China. Suppose that the United States of America had
obtained possession of the Isle of Wight or the Isle of
Man, would the United States, he asked, have a larger
trade in England? It was most absurd to assume that
they would. He believed that the occupation of such
places as Hong• Kong rather militated against their trade
than promoted it, and he was of opinion that they only
benefited these who gave away places, and those who
were appointed to them.
The vote was then agreed to.
LABUAN.

On the vote 9,827/. for the governor and establishment
of Labuan being proposed,
Mr. COBDEN said that here they took possession of
a barren rock, assuming that they would have a large
trade there, and that they forthwith make a large estab-
lishment. He did not think that they could ever have a
trade there of the slightest importance. The governor
and commander-in-chief, it appeared, was paid 2,000/.;
the lieutenant-governor and magistrate, 1,3751.; the mas-
ter attendant and post-master, 500/.; the surveyor, 5001.;
the station-surgeon, 4461. 13s. 4d. ; the governor's office,
487/.los. ; the lieutenant-governor's office, 1751., and so
on, making, in the whole, 9,8271. a year. Now this vote
was the same as last year. What, he asked, was La-
buan good for ? It was said it was a place for a large
trade. He should like to hear from the Hon. Gentle-
man the Under-Secretary for the Colonies what the
prospects were which induced them to encourage such
expectations. What he complained of was this—that
before they had obtained that trade they formed a large
establishment, sufficient to govern a large community.
The settlement of Labuan, too, was rather curious. It
was through a piece of sentimentalism that they were in-
debted for the possession of this place. There was an
adventurous gentleman who sailed in his yacht towards
this part of the world. This gentleman takes possession
of Sarawak, a district of a country upon the coast of
Borneo, and he gets the cession of this district. He
is, therefore, called Raja, the former Raja being a
pirate. This gentleman then comes to England,
and by a system of enormous and sentimental puffing
he persuades the Government that be is going to civilize
Borneo. What does he do? lie first appoints himself
consular agent—agent to himself. He is Raja Brooke
at Sarawax, and consular agent to himself at Borneo.
We take the island of Labuan, about 300 miles from
Sarawak, and appoint this gentleman governor of La-
buan, although it is probably more difficult to communi‘
cate between these places than between Labuan and
England, because there are no means of communication
established there. It was quite clear that this gentle-
man could not be in both places at the same time, and
to get over this difficulty he appoints a lieutenant-governor
to do his duty during his absence from au island which
was without a population! Now, he asked, could any
country play such tricks with their ways and means as
this country bas done? He should be glad to hear from
:he Hon. Under-Secretary whether it was the intention
of the Government to continue this establishment, and
to pay the salaries that were now to be voted?
Mr. HAWES thought that his Hon. Friend had ra-
ther undervalued this settlement. He would remind the
lion. Member that from no quarter of the world did
stronger representations come for the settlement of La•
buan, than from Manchester, Liverpool, London, and
Glasgow. Memorials had, in fact, been presented to
the Government from the whole commercial community,
urging a settlement of Labuan. It was not, therefore,
from a mere feeling of sentimentalism that the Govern-
ment were induced to form an establishment at Labuan.
' Sir James Brooke was then singularly well qualified to
undertake the duties of Governor, from the influence
which he had obtained over the surrounding savage ter-
ritories, and over the Sultan of Borneo, a place which
did not belong to us, and of which we have no right to
the smallest possession. His Hon. Friend seemed to
forget that the coal found in Labuan was most valuable
and advantageous to our whole steam navigation in those
parts. When they sent such a man to so miserable a
spot they were bound to make him some good compen-
,ation for the duties they imposed upon him. If they
thought the salary too large they could discuss the mat-
t, r. So far as he hail seen he had found that when they
had, through a mistaken economy, reduced the salary of
a governor under such circumstances, it was increased
in another way by means of allowances that were not
accounted for, as had formerly been the case in Ceylon,
for instance. Papers relatine, to this settlement had
been laid before the House last year, when there was a
vote of 2,5001. taken for public buildings. This place
being half way between Singapore and Hong-Kong,
would be the greatest possible benefit to our steam navy
lei mercantile interest. He defended the vote for La-
buan, upon the same principle as he defended that for
Hong-Kong, the former being peculiarly valuable to us,
by reason of its coal mines.
Mr. V. SMITH did not think that the Hon. Under.
Secretary had given a very good answer to the state-
ment of the Hon. Member for the West Riding of York-
shire, when he said that a petition had been presented
from Manchester in favour of the settlement of Labuan.
He was of opinion that the statement made by his Hon.
Friend was in most respects perfectly correct. It ap-
peared that there was a clever and entertaining book
written by Sir J. Brooke upon the subject of this colony
which caused much excitement amongst the people, and
a desire to know something more about this country.
Consequently the Colonial Office made an establishment
at Labuan. He, however, thought that the Government
had a duty of resistance as well as a duty of compliance.
His lion. Friend the Under-Secretary had only men-
tioned the fact of coal being found at this place in show-
ing the great advantage Labuan was to this country.
He (Mr. V. Smith) did not think that this fact was suffi-
cient to justify the large establishment which they kept
up there. Ile was afraid that in a short time they
would be compelled to do something in respect to Borneo
in the extension of our arms over that qurter. The
Hon. Gentleman seemed to forget that there were troops
at Labuan. He wishel to know whether there was a
probability of any increased expenditure in consequence
of our taking possession of Labuan?
Sir H. VERNEY protested against any premature
opinion being expressed with respect to the value of
Labuan as a colony. Similar opinions to those which
had been stated to-night were made use of in 1823 and
1824 with t espect to the foundation of Singapore, which
opinions ultimately turned out to be unjustifiable.
Mr. F. SCOTT hoped that the Committee would not
come to a hasty conclusion upon a matter which, ho be-
lieved, was likely to turn out one of immediate import-
ance to our East Indian possessions. He hoped that
the Under-Secretary for the Colonies was in a position
to give the Committee some estimate of the value of the
coal which was to be found at Labuan, and what other
sources of wealth the colony possessed?
Mr. HAWES said that he did not wish to approach
the subject of coal mining at Labuan with any degree of
delicacy. He had reason to know that an agent had been
sent out by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Naviga-
tion Company to Labuan, and that he had transmitted
information to this country, to the effect that the ships
of the company could be supplied at the island with
coals, at from one-fourth to one-half less cost than at
present. Ultimately, therefore, the public must be
benefited in the shape of entering into contracts for the
conveyance of mails, as well as in other matters, by
this settlement.

Mr. COBDEN complained that a Government had
been established at Labuan, before a colony or settle-
ment was founded. He did not believe that there were
ten white people in the colony. He could not help observ-
ing that Gentlemen might have a motive for going through
the north of England, and exciting the manufacturing
classes there—(lronical cheering from the Protection.
ists)—for a particular purpose interesting to themselves
—(Renewed cheering of the same character and from the
same quarter)—exciting them into a mood for petitioning
the Legislature under certain promises of benefiting
themselves by it—(Repeated cheering from the kilt of
the chair)—of benefiting by a new sort of trade with
Japan or some unknown country. Gentlemen had
gone through the north and raised great expectations
with respect to trading with Labuan. He believed that
the memorials from the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce
and other places to the Government in favour of occupy-
ing Labuan were very cautiously worded, and not so
much in favour of the system of government of the de-
tached island as was stated. It should be recollected
that Sir J. Brooke was Consul at Sarawak and Governor
of Labuan, which was 300 miles distant from his place of
residence.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that Sir J. Brooke was
not consul to himself, as the Hon. Gentleman had
asserted. He was accredited to the Sultan at Borneo by
the Government of this country.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE expressed his admiration of Sir
James Brooke's conduct, and the confidence he had in
his management of the colony, for the welfare of Briti,h
interests. His appointments as Raja of Sarawak and
Governor of Labuan were in his (Sir W. Jolliffe's)
opinion well deserved.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCIIERE defended the Chamber of Com-
merce of Manchester, with respect to the memorial pre-
sented by them to the First Minister of the Crown in
1846, in favour of colonising Labuan. The Right Hoe.
Gentleman read the memorial in extenso, and: said that
nothing could be less vague than the opinion expressed
in it. The language was that of men who had no doubt
looked well and carefully into the whole subject—
(Hear)—and they prayed that measures for colonising

the island in question might be carried into effect with
the utmost possible dispatch. Considering that the Hon.
Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cob-
den) was so intimately connected with the commercial
and trading interests of Lancashire, he (Mr. Labouchere)
was surprised that he hail thrown a doubt upon the
sincerity of the motives of such an eminent and re-
spectable body as the Manchester Chamber of Com-
merce.—(Hear, hear.) The mercantile community of
this country had generally agreed in recommending that
Labuan should be taken possession of as a colony by
Great Britain; and, as a Member of the Government, he
concurred in the recommendation.

Mr. COBDEN, notwithstanding what had been said
by the members of the Government, still retained the
opinion that the Government establishment at Labaun
was extravagant and profligate; and he, therefore, could
not sanction the vote under consideration. He com-
plained that he had had no answers to the questions put
by him to the Under Secretary for the Colonies.
Mr. HENLEY expressed his dissatisfaction at the ex-
planations given by Mr. Hawes with respect to the value
of Labuan, and wished for more detailed and decisive in-
formation on the subject. Perhaps the Hon. Member
for Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor), who was so well versed in
statistical details, and had such a thorough knowledge of
the question before them, would favour the Committee
with his opinion.
Colonel THOMPSON could not help saying he
thought that mercantile men had great facilities for
getting up experiments when other people had to pay for
them.—(lronical cheering from the Opposition side of
the House.) He did not, however, believe that the
general opinion of the people was in favour of adopting
Labuan as a colony. He trusted that the Committee
would express their opinion upon the question before
them by dividing.
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE in
favour of the vote, and laudatory of Sir J. Brookes,
Mr. SCOTT thought the House was greatly indebted
to the Hon. Member for the West Riding for bringing
the matter under their notice, and also for the manner
—the manly manner—in which he had stated how pe-
titions and memorials were got up in the north of Eng-
land.

Mr. WYLD said, as all that fell from a gentleman
holding the distinguished position filled by the Honour-
able Member for Kinsale would be looked upon as autho-
rity, and as he bad stated that we had not the shadow
of a claim upon any portion of the island of Borneo, he
was anxious to take that opportunity of stating that
there could be no doubt whatever that this country had
a good claim to several portions of that island, although
in abeyance now in consequence of the treaties into
which we had entered.

In answer to Mr. NEWDEGATE,
Lord PAL YIERSTON said it was well known that
the seas around Borneo swarmed with pirates—(Hear,
hear)—aad that they did not sail, as in the Mediter-
ranean, in ones or twos, but in whole fleets. Accounts
had recently been received that a small fleet had been
seen, and had committed several depredations on the
coasts and rivers of Borneo.—(Hear, hear.) It was the
duty of Sir James Brooke, in conjunction with the
Commander on the station, to take measures for the
security of the British commerce there. Cruisers had
already been sent to those seas by the Spanish Governor
of the Philippine Islands, and with a view of protecting
our own commerce and that of our customers, it was of
the utmost importance that such wholesale piracy should
be put a stop to, and one of the ends contemplated by
the establishment of Labuan was, to put down the abo-
minable system there carried on.
Mr. COBDEN—That was just ono of the evils of
taking possession of the island at all. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Warwickshire already wanted more ships of war
to be sent out to Sir James Brooke, on the pretence of
putting down that piracy which was said to exist. Now
he repeated that those so-called pirates never did, and
never would, attack a'square-rigged vessel. The people
there were in the same position as the ancient Scandi-
navians; they were nearly in a state of barbarism, and
they were all pirates amongst each other. Was it our
business to send out ships of war to compel the
people to lead civilized lives ?
Mr. MANGLES said the Hon. Member for the West
Riding had gone beyond the mark in his last statement.
He (Mr. M) remembered being in the Straits of Malacca
in a 700 ton ship when the demonstration of the pirates
rendered them very much afraid of an attack.
Mr. COBDEN—How many years ago ? I spoke of
the present time.

Mr. MANGLES—It was in 1834 or 1835. The
whole of the commerce of Singapore was carried on in
small vessels, and unless they were protected, even to
the very mouth of the harbour, the trade would be
wholly stopped.
After a further conversation, the vote was agreed to.
13,6541. was then proposed to be granted for defraying
the expenses of the Emigration Board.
In answer to a question from Mr. V. SMITH,
Mr. HAWES said he hoped the report of the Board
would be laid on the table in the course of next week.
As the work of that Board has so much increased of
late, he had no hope that it could be reduced in number
during the present year.
Mr. SCOTT did not think the board too large for
emigration which took place yearly, but he trusted they
would do all in their power to turn the stream of emi-
gration more towards the British possessions.
Mr. HAWES said, while the passage to Australia
cost so much more than that to America, the great
stream of emigration would flow to the latter country.
In answer to a question from Mr. GROGAN,
Mr. HAWES said, free passages were paid for out of
the colonial funds, and as they increased or decreased,
so would such passages be granted. The facilities for
emigration would certainly be increased.

Mr. SCOTT must protest against the colonies being
so heavily taxed in order to relieve the mother country
from their pauperism, neither did he think that England
ought to be called upon to bear the burden of relieving
Ireland from her paupers.
Mr. HINDLEY hoped the Government would give
some assurance that they were prepared to take up the
subject of emigration in a large and comprehensive
manner. There was not a question of greater import-
ance to England. The Government ought to come for-
ward and assist the emigration clubs. Let those clubs
pay one-fourth, the parish or the union one-fourth, the
colony one•fourth, and the Government the other fourth;
then the colonies would be benefited by the labour which
they wanted for the purpose of bringing their land into
cultivation, while the mother country would be relieved.
Let them not be afraid of spending a million or two.—
(Oh, oh.) Had they spent the eight millions they had
thrown away in Ireland— (Hear, hear)—on emigration,
they would have benefited the colonies and done Ireland
some good.
The vote was agreed to.
30,0001. was proposed for maintaining captured negroes
and liberated Africans at Sierra Leone.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE said, they had now arrived at a
class of votes which brought the whole C 230 of the slave
trade under the notice of the House. The system now
pursued only added to the misery and cruelty of the
abominable traffic, and had entirely failed in the object
with which it was instituted. He believed that it cost
the country one million sterling per annum, besides the
wear and tear of ships, the expense of which could not
be arrived at. By disagreeing to the vote, they would
show their determination to put anend to a system which
only aggravated the evils it was intended to cure. If the
money were spent on emigration, the country would be
much better satisfied.

Mr. M. GIBSON asked if the mixed Commission
Courts were not placed in a peculiar position at the
present moment ? He thought they could have nothing
to do at present, as the slave trade was carried on
under the Brazilian flag. The Brazilian ships could not
be condemned by these courts; and he wished to know
whether an arrangement could not be made for lessening
the expense ? It was now, he believed, at least 25,0001.
a year.

Lord PALMERSTON said it was quite true the
greater part of the slave trade was carried on under
the Brazilian flag, still there was some portion of the
trade carried on under the Spanish flag,and
some under no flag ; and if these courts ceased to
exist, some ships could not be condemned. His lion.
Friend would perceive that he had acted on the sugges-
tion thrown out last year; and that he had left vacant
several of the appointments, so as to reduce the expense
by 6,0001. a year. He was also in communication with
the Court of Portugal to reduce the expenditure, and
would omit no opportunity that might offer for re-
ducing it.
Mr. M. GIBSON suggested that there should be a
return made of the ships seized. He wished to know
when a return would be forthcoming?
Lord PALMERSTON said returns were made from
time to time of the ships seized.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 16,850/. for salaries and expenses of
the mixed Commission Courts, was agreed to.
98,690/., to complete the sum necessary for the consu-
lar establishments abroad, were next proposed.
Mr. HENLEY observed they had not yet got rid of
Hong-Kong. The salary for superintendent he per-
ceived was included in that of governor. They had a
consul, too, though it was not usual to keep a consul in
one of their own colonies. There was then a secretary,
and a second assistant keeper of records. There was a
cost of 25,000/., and salaries amounting to 4,6001. for the
consular service.

Lord PALMERSTON replied that the same person
who acted as governor was superintendent to the consu.
lar establishment in China, and had tocommunicate with
consuls in five different ports.
Mr. SCOTT objected to the payment of an interpreter
at Canton, when they had so great a linguist there as
Dr. Bowring.
Mr. MITCHELL objected to the payment of two se-
cretaries.

Lord PALMERSTON replied that one secretary was
engaged in consular business, and another secretary was
employed in other duties.
Mr. HINDLEY wished to know by what rule the sa-
laries of consuls was fixed, as they differed so mush from
each other?
Lord PALMERSTON replied that the amount of
a ilary depended upon a variety of considerations—the
importance of the duties, the rank of the officer, the ex-
pense of the place, its healthiness or unhealthiness, and
many other considerations. He had looked over the list
with great attention, and had endeavoured to apportion
the salary to the duties.
In reply to a question from Mr. GROGAN,
Lord PALMERSTON said it was quite true the
salaries in China were arranged on a very high scale.
All the salaries under the East India Company were en
a high scale, but he hoped he would be able to reduce
them considerably.

A—Ir.HENLEY said that the consular establishments
in China were a comparatively new creation; and if the
consuls in other parts of the world saw that the consul-
general to China had an outfit they would expect one
also. In his (Mr. Henley's) opinion the outlay for an
outfit was altogether unreasonable, especially in a case
like this, where the consul was paid so high an amount
for his expenses.
ANSTEY said that the vote was objectionable,