The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-14 00:00:00

IRISH. TYTHES.

Mr. GOULBURN could assure the House that in becoming
the organ of introducing this great question, he had not pre-
sumed upon being able to succeed where other gentlemen had
so often failed ; but he came forward on the part of the Irish
Government, with the present measure as the first fruits of
their consideration of the state of that country. He did not ex-
pect to satisfy those who had put forward wild and visionary
schemes of appropriating the property of the Church to the
exigencies of the State, and thereby to pull down the fabric
which was so intimately connected with its welfare; neither
did he hope to meet the support of such as would approximate
the Church of Ireland to the system which now existed with
regard'to that of Scotland. He had been given to understand
that the measure he was about to introduce was not likely to
be encouraged by those who wished fora general commutation
of tithes. The measure in question undoubtedly was not upon
that principle; but he did not pledge himself to oppose every
measure of general commutation. His measure embraced
other objects; and he must be permitted to say, that those who
advocated the general measure, ought to be intimately and ex•
tensively acquainted with the subject, before they ventured
to introdUce it. He did net advocate a general measure of
commutation, if in that term were included the forcibly taking
away of property by those who had no legal control over it.
But he was an advocate for that commutation which essen-
tially included the consent, the voluntary consent, of those whose
rights were to- be affected by it. Without, however, discuss-
ing so extensive a question, he hoped lie might assume that his
bringing forward the present, a minor measure, would not pre-,
elude his introducing one of a more general nature; and in this
hope he would proceed to state the outline of his present Bill.
Tithes he considered as an ancient and a private property, and
derived from as ancient and as good a title as that of any other
species of property. The tithes of Ireland were held by a,
class of the Clergy whom he considered to be respectable, not-.
withstanding the exceptionable conduct of many individuals
composing a part of it. These exceptions did not interfere
with the general merit of the Clergy as a body. He therefore
approached the subject as he would any other private pro-
perty. The ,remedy he intended to propose would,- he believ-
ed, remedy many of the evils at present attending the tithe
system of Ireland; and he flattered himself it would be found

to contain sufficient to induce the consent of those who were
to be. affected by it. The_ demands of the Clergy of Ireland
were, he thought, in general enforced with mildness, though he
admitted that there were particular instances of deviation from
the general rule. In this respect it was to be regretted that
the Clergy of Ireland were under the necessity of collecting
their tithes front the poorer classes. This was. not the case in
England, where the payers of tithes were generally persons of
some capital. At all events, the tithes of England were -paid
willingly when compared with those of Ireland, where it was too
often necessary to demand them by legal measures. The tithe,
too, was paid by a number of petty contributors. To illustrate
this statement, he would refer to one parish (which he assured the
House he had not selected) in which there were 1900 persons to
pay4ool. per annum. Itmight, in many cases, be the duty as well
as the inclination of the Clergyman, to remit as much as pos-
sible of that tithe, which he could not collect but by legal
enforceMent ; yet the Clergyman," from the great number of
small contributors, was too often reduced to the alternative of
giving up the means of supporting himself and his family, or
of taking legal proceeding's to. enforce the payment of his tithes.lie (Mr. G.) should propose that the incumbent should
have the Power of leasing his tithes for 21 years, and that this
lease should' bind his, successor. It was therefore almost unne-
cessary to state, that Ander the present law, a tithe lease was
binding only on the living incumbent, and the person who. was to
pay.' . He intended however to guard against partial or fraudu-
lent leases, and had therefore introduced effectual provisions for
preventing the taking of any fine or premium for the granting
of those leases.. To remedy other evils wh'eh attended the
pregent system, he proposed that those leases might be en-
tered into with the freeholder and reversioner of the land, as
well as the occupier. He should also state, that there were at
present many arrangements_betweeti existing incumbents and
proprietors ; and these arrangements did not come within the
protection of any law, though it had been found that they con-
duced very much t© quietness, and that there was general
tranquillity in the districts in which they prevailed: These
arrangements it. was proposed to confirm.—(Hear !)—ln short,
the whole object of the bill was to remove every case of hosti-
lity between the incumbent and his parishioner.. He had been
told that there would be objections to this bill on the part of the
Gentry and the, landed proprietors of Ireland ; but he trusted
he should be doing them an injustice to believe that his infor-
mation. was correct. He trusted so the more, because this Bill
Would nut impedeanyultemate measure which might be thought
advisable, with a view to the general subject of commutation.
Upon that question he thought the main difficulty would be to
ascertain the value of the thing to be commuted. There were,
however, many different opinions on this head ; though he
thought they might be ultimately reconciled. Indeed, he be-
lieved that . a Right. Hon. Gentleman (Sir John. Newport, 'we
believe) who took so great an interest in the affairs of Ireland
'agreed with his (Mr. G.'s) principle: and that the,leasing sys-
tem would lead to an easy commutation of tythes in general.
Upon the principle of- general commutation, he should be
happy to hear any proposition which did not go to violate the
tights of the Clergy or those of private ecclesiastical property._
(Hear, hear 1)-7-Indeed he had' been-careful to frame his bill so
that it should not possibly interfere with the views of any Ho-
nourable Member as to. the general measure. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to,
enable ecclesiastical persons to - grant . leases to bind their
succeseors.
Sir H. PARNELL was glad to find that this important sub-
ject had at last been taken- up by Gevernment. It
.involved
many great evils ; and he had for many years endeavoured to
bring them under the serious attention of -Ministers. The
preient question was brought forward in . a most fair, candid
'and liberal manner, by the' Right Honourable Gentleman.—
(Hear I)—But the evil itself required a rein edy,..of amore general
nature than that proposed. • lie admiteedelie general liberality
of the Irish Clergy, but there were many easel of individual
hardship arising out of the present law. He knew many cases
of individual hardship ; and he held in' his hand a receipt for'
law expences, amounting to 50s. paid by a. man whose tithes-
amounted to only Ils. And yet it. 'happened that the tithes
were something more than the rent of the-land. He had heard
much about combinations among tenants, to prevent new
comers, and this tended very -much' to, keep down the rent of
land.- Ale agreed.-that eases might be. Made !valid, in the way-
proposed without- interfering with the general measure of
commutation. To commutation he was satisfied the Clergy of
Ireland had no Qbjection, and he had received many letters
from intelligent Irish Clergymen expressing their sentiments on
this subject. It was the interest of the Clergy to have a gene-
ral measure relative to the tithes.; and if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Goulburu) wished to introduce such a measure,
he had nothing to do but consult the Clergy as to the form of
it. He wished to induce the House not to agree to ,the Bill
proposed to them, which he was sure would be inefficient,
and prevent any other being, introduced.. He thought the
best course to pursue was for . the Right Hon.. Gentleman to
wait till next Session befOre he did any thing on the subject,'
when he would be better acquainted with 'the sentiments of the
Clergy and people of Ireland, who. best understood their own
interests. He hoped, therefore, Ise would not press this Bill,
and thereby divide those who were otherwise willing to sup-
port him. •

Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the Bill altogether in-
efficient. lie was confident that the ParOchial Clergy were
not those who oppressed the people of• Ireland by their
tithes ; and he knew that the greatest abuses existed in those
parts ,where the rectorial tythes were the property of the
Bishop. The enactments of this Bill, therefore, were not at
all suited to the evils of the cake. So long back as the time of
the Union, this question of tythes was promised to be set at
rest, and now, 22 years, afterwards, the pledge then given had
not been redeemed. That it was necessary' to the tranquillity
of the country no one could doubt. It had always been the
source of disturbance, and the fact that, in the late dis-
orders, those counties were most disturbed were the petatoe
tythe was exacted, was decisive on the question. For all the
evils deicribed to be consequent upon the tythe system, he
knew but one remedy, and that was commutation. But what-
ever was the remedy, it was the duty of Government to apply
it, and being convinced that the meaning of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman's measure was to put off a real remedy,
he protested against the House adopting it, and supposing
they had applied a remedy. H lle, thought it better to wait a
few months loriger, when the Right Hon. Secretary would be
better acquaintedwith the nature of the evil he.had to deal
with. He was sorry to oppose the introduction of a measure
of this kind ; and would not do so could he think that any mo-
dification of it would be available to the intended purpose.—
He did not however think that it could in any way be trans-
formed into an efficient measure of remedy ; and he repeated
that he deprecated the measure being received by the House,
because he was sure it would have the effect of lulling the
House and the country into a supposition that the important
question of the tythe system of Irelabd was at rest.
Mr. PLUNKETT hoped his Right lion. Friend who had
just sat down would not oppose the measure, notwithstanding
his opinion of its efficacy. After mature consideration, his
Majesty's Government has brought forward measure, the
only one they thought fit to be applied to the evil under their
consideration, and it was not according to the usual courtesy
due to his,liajesty7s Government to refuse to read the Bill a
first time. He could not agree in his Honourable Friend's
argument for that course, founded on the apprehension
that the admission of the, Bill would have the effect of
lulling that House and the country into a feeling of apathy
on the subject. If the Bill were calculated to have a
good effect, it ought to lull them to quiet and satisfac-
tion. If it were inefficient, as he represented it 7 he did not
think it was likely to lull either the House or, tne country ;
and the warning voice of his Right Hon. Friend couldas well
be raised at an'after period as then ; and he was sure the Right
Hon. Mover (Mr. Goulburn) was not the person to oppose him
in any other proposition hereafter. If his Right Hon. Friend
could devise any measure of general commutation, which
should not interfere with the great and settled principles of
property, he (Mr. Plunkett) would be the first to support him.
But he.wished to know on what pxinciple they were to com-
mute. Was it on that of a fair and full compensation to the
Clergy ? If they gave a full compensation it would be an in-
fraction Of property dangerous to that House to sanction. If
it were not on the principles of a fair compensation, it must
be the reverse; and then they would be just as well justified
in taking from the landlord as from the Clergyman, or any
other class. He was sure his lion. Friend, with his reverence
for the laws, would not consent to that. The Clergy, at pp-
sent, had nearer one-twentieth than one-tenth; and the prin-
ciple of commutation, therefore,-would go to double the present
evil so much complained of.—(Hear.)—The principle of any
measure that he could agree to must be that the property df the
church should be inviolable. Any other principle with regard
to the property of,the Clergy_once recognized would go to affect
the landlord at last. The chapter of tythes once opened., the
chapter of rents would soon follow. In opposition to his Right

• -
Hon. Friend's statement, he would take upon himself to say.
that the tythes formed no more an ingredient in the late insur-
rectionary movements, than did the rent of land, and indeed
every charge upon land, whether of a public nature, as taxes,
or private, as rents.--(Hear.)—The insurrections were against
every species of burden upon land. But on this his Right Hoe.
Friend and himself 'were at issue upon facts, and it would be
easier to come to an understanding upon arguments. His Right
Hon. Friend argued that because the counties most disturbed
in the late disorders were those wherein the potatoe tythe was
exacted, therefore the rotatoe tythe caused the said disorders.
Now, it that were the case, how did his Hon. Friend account
for the disturbances of the year 1820 being most flagrant in the
counties of Galway, Sligo, Roscommon, Cork, and Tipperary,
where that tythe was not levied ? He wished, however, to say
nothing hostile towards the landlords of Ireland, but hei must
state, that so far from the tythe. of she clergy being held in exe-
cration, it was generally matter of dispute betwixt the landlord
and tenant of small patches of, potatoe ground, whether the
former or the latter should pay the tythe ; the latter always
pieferring rather to deal with the clergyman than the landlord.
The parochial clergy in Ireland were always most exemplary
in their lenient mode of colleeting their tythes. He did not
think his Right Hon. Friend was Justified in his opposition to
this Bill; and until a better could be devised, he thought the
House was hound to adopt it. Hear) -- -
Mr. SPRING —(
RICE said, that without a Measure on the
principle of a full and fair commutation, no satisfaction could
be-given to Ireland upon this subject. What he meant by a
fair commutation was to give the clergy the same amount they
now received,
_better secured, and more respectably collected
than at present. When the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
Opposite (Mr: Plunkett) talked of the right of the clergy tb their
tithes, he must beg him to look at the institution of tithes, and
particularly to the fourfold duty attached to the receipt of
them. If the clergy demanded the whole of their tithes, he in
return would demand of them this fourfold duty. He was con-
vinced that the clergy would be found most anxious for such
a commutation as that he spoke of. The Bishop might be
against it ; but in spite of the whole bench of I3ishops, he
hoped they would persevere in their endeavours to establish the
peace of Ireland by setting at rest this harassing subject. He
felt gratefill to his Majesty's Government for having under-
taken the consideration of this matter, but he could not think
this measure would be effectual. He would rather suggest
that a Commission should be appointed by the Crown to in-
quire, and that the House should wait till the Report of that
Commission should be before them. It was sufficient for him
to state,that the present plan was bad, without his being called
upon to furnish another one better. If they would remove the
present tythe system, they would remove one cause of non-re-
sidence of the Clergy ; and if they, could note make them use-
ful as religiOus instructors, they would make them at the least
more exemplary as Ministers of Christianity in a more ex-
tended sense. --
Mr. DENNIS BROWNE declared-that for the last fifty
years, ever since he tva.S:a boy,. the tithe system had been the
cause of disturbance in Ireland. Itliad been the cause of all
the insurrections in that country. He was persuaded that Ire-
land never would be tranquil while that systemllasted. He was
decidedly of opinion that commutation would be the only remedy
for the evil ; and he would agree to the Bill which it was now
proposed to introduce, because he did not think that it would
throw any obstacle in the way of establishing commutation.
Mr. DAWSON rejoiced Very much at the discussion which
had been afforded; on a subject of so much importance to-the
welfare 'of- Ireland, and thanked • the Right Hon. Secretary
for the temperate manner in -which he had treated this great
national 'question. He thougla this bill -would 'niake a good
foundation for the perrhanent establishment of this difficult
matter, and he concurred most cordially 'in it. Notviithstand,
ing. the complaints made, it appeared to him that the clergy ex-
ercised their tight with- respect to tithes with great lenity and
forbearance.• He admitted that some of their agents had at
times acted with severity, but he denied that the Clergy them-
selves ought to be condemned-because some of their agents had
acted improperly. -The clergymen conttl not be expected to go
and chaffer with the farmers thenaselves. They were unfitted
lot this by their habits and education, and they were therefore
tioinore to' be blamed for employing agents, than a private
.6entleman was- fo blame for engaging a Steward. The burden's
complained of in Ireland were threefold, the rent; the tithes,
and-the local taxes. He gave it as his opinion that the princi-
pal evil connected with the tithes grew out of the law of adjust-
ment. ' The Clergyman got less than his share; for he believed
he seldom demanded more than a twentieth-of that which he
was entitled to claim,, and then he did not press for payment in
=My cases tilt 18 months after -it was due. The Clergy did MA
deserve the outcry which was raised against them. Selfish reps
gious and political motives united to produce it, but he was
confident that if the tithes were taken off, no relief would be
afforded to the people, as the amount so taken off would go
into the pocket of the Landlord in the shape of increased ren-
tal. He for one would never acquiesce in any measure which
might be proposed without the concurrence of the Clergy, which
went to trench on the rights of the Church. •
Mr. S. RICE explained.
Captain O'GRADY thought the tithes had become a great
evil with respect to which something ought to be dohe. Ile,
for one, should oppose any measure that went to give the
Clergy a larger income than they now enjoyed, as in his
judgment they already received too much. He dwelt e.t some
length on the evils which oppressed Ireland, and which he con-
sidered the Offspring of the tythe ,system: He had seen no
plan of commutation with which he entirely concurred, and
he therefore-thought it desirable to amend the present system
where they could. He thought some changes necessary in the
Ecclesiastical Courts of Ireland, and suggested several altera-
tiOns which he thought would be improvements. These
adopted, and the tythe system generally ameliorated, he was
satisfied that those disturbances which at present afflicted Ife-
land would be heard of no more. He trusted the House
would, ere long, adopt some decisive measures to accomplish
these objects.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose merely to recall
the attention of the Houie to the question actually before them,
which was this, whether or not-they would suffer his Hon.
Friend to bring in the Bill which he wished to introduce. His
Hon. Friend; in moving for leave to bring if in, had explained
the principles of the measure which he desired to offer to the
House, and in a-manner which he thought must be satisfactory.
The present =Merit, he, however' subinitted, was not the pro-
per time to go into an extended debate on the merits of the plan.
#e shoidd be sorry to say any thing' that might introduce a
party spirit into this discussion, and
.he was unwilling even to
pledge himself to the detail's of the-'measure 'at this shape of
the proceeding. When, however,: the fate of tithes in other
countries was referred to, he must say he hoped this would be
a warning to them to guard- against the sacred principle of pro-
perty in this being invaded by that revolutionary spirit,which
had prevailed
_elsewhere. He thought the evils hitherto tom- '
plained of would be greatly diminished, if not wholly removed,
by an arrangement for twenty-one years, with respect to tithes,
which could be effected under this Bill. His Right Hon.
Friendliad proved at the outset, by the course which he had
pursued, that he had pursued a statesmanlike view of the whole
subject. He was willing to consider of any species of permis-
sive or compulsory commutation that might be suggested. lie
deprecated the giving of hasty pledges, wished the subject to
be approached with the caution' due to its gravity and import-
ance, and hoped the House would keep the whole question open
for future consideration. He, however, thought too much was
not asked when his Hon. Friend solicited permission to bring
in a better Bill than that which the Hon. Baronet had offered
to the House three Sessions ago.
Sir H. PARNELL explained.
Mr. HUTCHINSON was disposed to give Ministers leave
to bring in this Bill, not thereby committing himself to their
measures nor to the opinion of his Hon. Friend near him, that
some commutation must be effected, hutconsidering that giving
his vote in favour of bringing in the Bill, lie bound the Govern-
ment to take into consideration the situation of Ireland.- He
begged to remind the Noble Lord, that in the debates which
had taken place on the Union, Mr. Pitt had stated the Tithes'
system of Ireland to be one of the most trying evils under
which that country groaned.
An Hon. MEMBER was of opinion, that till some fair system
of commute tion should be adopted, there would be no perma-
nent tranquillity in Ireland.,
.Mr. DALY thought it would not be courteous to divide the
House then, but he would oppose the Bill now to be-introdu-
ced,' in every future stage.
Sir. N. COLTHURST was of opinion, for the security of
the.country, and for the security of the rights of the Clergy,
that a commutation of tithes was necessary. He was sorry to
say he could not attach great value to the present Bill. He
did not think that it would accomplish the-object in view. -
Col. SKEFFINGTON spoke in support of the Bill.
Mr. O'GRADY did the same.•
Mr. It. MARTIN said he :should vote for the: Bill in all its