The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-20 00:00:00

I should be to any other revolutionary measure which might
be proposed.- Unless, therefore, I hear some arguments
stronger than any I have hitherto heard, or than I antici•
pate, agaiiist this Bill, as it has been returned to us from,
the House of Lords, I repeat that I am not prepared to
depart from the last two votes which I gave on this subject,
and that so far from thinking any compromise desirable, I
protest most strongly against it.
Lord CLEMENTS—I feel it impossible to hear the
interests of the Irish people alluded to as they have been
without protesting in the strongest manner against it. The
blood boils in my Irish veins when I hear the disposition to
do the people of Ireland justice called concession. Con-
cession ! Are the municipal Corporations of England to be
reformed for the good of the people of England, and is the
reform of the Municipal Corporations of Ireland, for the
good of the people of Ireland, to be called a concession ?
(Hear, hear.) Sir, I much fear that the Protestants of
Ireland have much more to fear from their zealous but in-
judicious friends, than they have from their worst enemies.
For myself, I hope and believe that I am conscientiously
attached to the religion which I profess ; but I deeply re-
gret that the interests of that religion have been taken up
in the manner in which they have been taken up, and that
the Tories seem desirous of maintaining the distinction be-
tween Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, instead of try-
ing to forget all religious differences, and to merge them in
one general feeling for the common good.—( Hear.) Sir, I
am convinced that if this destructive measure sent to us by
the House of Lords be adopted by the House of Commons,
many a Protestant in Ireland will lose his rights. And why
is this done ? To me it is evident, that merely for the sake of
destroying the rights of the Catholics in Ireland the House
of Lords has consented to destroy the rights of the Protest..
ants in that country. We have been told of British do-
minion over Ireland ! To such language I can never listen
without resentment. Concession and dominion ! Was it
concession to Ireland when the penal laws against the Ca-
tholics in that country were abrogated? 'Was not that
abrogation calculated to be at least as beneficial to the Pro-
testants of Ireland as to the Catholics ? I will always
stand up for the country from which I come ; and I will
never hear the terms concession or dominion applied with
reference to that country without the frank expression of
my feelings. The House of Lords, by the course which
they have adopted on this occasion, have prevented much
good from being done. Ido from the bottom of my heart
believe that the majority of the House of Lords have taken
the course which they have taken on the present question,
because they dared to do with reference to the people of
Ireland what they did not dare to do with reference to the
people of England.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. DENISON—The Right Hon. Baronet who
spoke on the other side of the House indulged in an admo-
nition probably addressed to me as well as to other Hon.
Members, on the danger of the path on which he appre-
hended we were about to enter. Sir, a juster admonition
might be addressed to those who, having commenced great
political changes, and having laid down great political prin-
ciples, do not follow up those changes, or pursue those prin-
ciples to their proper termination.-4 Hear, hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet launched into a very just and a
very legitimate deprecation of rashness and imprudence.'
But if he, who was a party to Catholic Emancipation, who
was a party to the Reform of Parliament, who was a party
to the resolution of the House declaring that the peo-
ple of England and the people of Ireland were entitled
to equal rights, will suddenly stop short in that laudable
career, and will substitute for action, advice and warning
to those misguided politicians, as he conceives them to
be, who are disposed to continue the course recommended
by his early example, and.an entreaty to pause before they
venture further on their path, it is, I should suppose impos-
sible for the House or for the country to contemplate such a
change without feelings of great dissatisfaction.--(Hear.).
Sir, when the proper time arrives, I shall be prepared to
deliver my sentiments on the alterations which have been
made by the other House of Parliament in the Irish Mu-
nicipal Corporations Bill ; but I now mean to do, what no
Hon. Member who has preceded me has done, although
every one has claimed the attention of the House on the
ground of his intention to do it—namely, to confine my ob-
servations to the question immediately before us. Sir, I am
perfectly satisfied with the statement which has been made
by the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home
Department. That Noble Lord confined his observations
to the point which is really under our consideration ; he said
nothing about organic changes in the House of Lords, or
about the Irish Church, neither of those subjects being
under discussion. All that the Noble 'Lord said was, that
as the Bill for the reform of Municipal Corporations in
Ireland had come down from:the other house of Parliament
with amendments, he should move that those amendments
be printed, with a view to their being taken into considera-
tion on a future day. This was the only course for
the Noble Lord, in the peculiar situation in which he
was placed, to adopt ; and if he had not taken it, he
would not have done his duty. I will not enter at all
upon the question ; I will say nothing of the clauses in the
Bill which have been struck out, or of those which have
been substituted ; but I cannot hesitate to express my con-
currence in the opinion that a party measure, annihilating
all municipal government in Ireland, is a proceeding to
which it is impossible that this House can agree.—(Hear,
hear.) With that declaration I sit down. I join issue
with the Hon. Baronet in the conviction that the eyes of
the country are upon us ; that it becomes us to proceed with
caution and deliberation ; and that whatever individual, or
whatever body of individuals may transgress the bounds of
prudence on this subject, will be visited with public disap-
probation : and I hope that the example of decorum and
forbearance that has been set by the Noble Lord will be
followed, and that this debate may not at present be con-
tinued.

Mr. SHAW—In reference to some of the observations
which fell from the Noble Lord the Member for Armagh,
I must be permitted to say, that I never heard the word
" dominion" used on this side of the House in the sense
in which the Noble Lord seems to suppose that it has
been used. As to the word " concession," it has been
freely introduced in discussion on all sides of the House.
Sir, there have been very surprising changes on this very
question of the dissolution of municipal corporations on
the part of the Noble Lord. What is the question
before us? Municipal cogoorations have been extinguished
on the proposition of -his Majesty's present Govern-
ment. The only question here is, whether or not there
should be an entire extinction of the Municipal Corpora-
tions of Ireland. That is really the only point which we
are called upon to consider. Some Hon. Gentlemen insist
that we should legislate on this subject for Ireland, pre-
cisely as we have already legislated for England. But is our
legislation for Ireland to be free from all consideration of the
peculiar circumstances in which that country is placed ?
The only legitimate question to be determined is, How are
the towns in Ireland to be governed peaceably, quietly, and
beneficially to all parties? Now, of this I am persuaded,
that if you give to those towns Corporations constituted ac-
cording to the provisions which existed in this Bill before it
went up to the other House of Parliament, you will give
them the germs of strong political excitement, and violent
party feeling. The question is, whether, in order to get rid
of evils, the existence of which is allowed on all hands, we
should attempt to improve the present Municipal Corpora-
tions in Ireland, or should entirely transfer their privileges
and powers to other bodies? I cannot help thinking that
there was something in the tone and manner of the Noble
Lord, that indicated something beyond the mere motion
that the amendments made by the House of Lords in this
Bill be printed for future consideration. I can hardly help
thinking that the Noble Lord had in his contemplation
a letter which appeared this morning, and which has al-
ready been alluded to this evening, in which the writer de-
clares that an organic change is necessary in the constitu-
tion of the House of Lords, because, without such an
organic change there will never be an independent Parlia-
ment in Ireland ; without such an organic change we, shall
never have universal suffrage ; without such an organic
change we shall never have vote by ballot. This I can tell
the Noble Lord, that if he adopts such opinions and pro-
ceeds to act upon them, he will be led into difficulties, the
extent of which he perhaps does not now anticipate, but
which will place him in a situation that he will not find very
agreeable. There is scarcely any absurdity which has not
been proposed under the high-sounding phrase of " doing
justice to Ireland." Sir, I am as anxious as any man that
justice should be done to Ireland ; and it is, therefore, that
I can never give my consent ton measure which in my
opinion would be likely to be a fruitful source of discord and
contention in Ireland.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—Sir,
I rise to answer, not merely the statements and arguments,
but the insinuations, which, not very fairly, have been
thrown out by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who has just sat down. A more unmanly, a more disinge-
nuous, a more unjustifiable attack, I never heard made upon
a public man, than that which the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman has, by implication at least, made upon my
Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing can be more un-
justifiable than the mode which the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman has adopted, of ascribing motives, and then sug-
gesting that they are the motives of my Noble Friend, and
of his Majesty's Government. But such is the course
which the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman and his
friends have long uniformly pursued. In order to avoid dis-
cussing the real merits of the question, the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman endeavoured to connect the expressions
in a letter written by an Hon. and Learned Gentleman—
who, if he were present, would no doubt have been able
to answer for himself—with the opinions which he sup-
poses are entertained by my Noble Friend. Sir, this is
only a part of that miserable, that unmanly system which
our opponents have for some time been in the habit of pur-
suing, and the adoption of which only shows the weakness of
those who condescend to have recourse to it. The question
is, whether we shall do right or do wrong in adopting or re-

jecting the amendments which have been made by the
House of Lords in the Irish Municipal Corporations Bill ?
That question ought to be treated argumentatively, and not
by the suggestion of motives to any party. What right
had the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman to hold my
Noble Friend responsible for the opinions expressed by
another, that an organic change in the House of Lords was
indispensable to obtaining an independent Parliament in
Ireland, to obtaining Universal Suffrage, to obtaining Vote
by Ballot? Does not the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman well know that such opinions are not participated in
by my Noble Friend ?
Mr. SHAW—I never said that they were.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No
the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman never said that
they were ; but he implied it ; quoting those opinions as
having been expressed by one who bad acted in support
of his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) I have
thought it necessary thus to repel the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's insinuations ; not from any appre-
hension of their effect within these walls, but to prevent
the effect which they might otherwise have on weak minds
out of doors. The question for the House to consider,
and it was a question of great importance, was, what was
to be done with the new Bill, for a new Bill it essentially
was, that had ben sent to them by the other House of
Parliament ? In speaking upon that question, if his No-
ble Friend had not stated what his feelings were with re-
spect to it, he would have been deficient in candour, in
common sense, and in consistency.—(Hear.) But what
had that to do with the letter which appeared this
morning? It is true that in that letter the extinction of
Municipal Corporations in Ireland is reprobated. But
is that a new doctrine ? Is it not a doctrine which a
large majority of this House has sanctioned by its vote
on the motion of:the Noble Lora the Member for
Lancashire ? At the time that the proposition to extin-
guish those Corporations was brought before us, did we
not distinctly declare that we would not consent to their
extinction ? That refusal we are, I hope, prepared to re-
peat. Is that an unexpected declaration ? In or out of this
House, in any place whatever, such a result must have been
supposed. Even the Noble Lord himself who framed the
amendments could not have imagined that we should concur
in them. But it has been said that this is a premature dis-
cussion. To a certain extent that is the case ; but it must
be recollected that with reference to this Bill, as returned to
us by the House of Lords, we are not in the condition in
which we are placed with reference to Bills generally. In
Bills generally there may be a discussion on the first read-
ing, a discussion on the second reading, a discussion in the
Committee, a discussion on the Report, a discussion on the
third reading. But this Bill, which is essentially a new
measure, we are called upon to swallow whole, without that
previous caution and repeated consideration usually consi-
dered essential to legislative measures.—(Hear.) I perfectly
concur in what my Noble Friend has said, and conceive that
we are doing no more than what we are absolutely called upon
to do in the first instance, in declaring that we are not pre-
pared to assent to a measure which pronounces the whole
people of Ireland to be unfit and unworthy to exercise those
rights and privileges which have been conceded to their
brethren in England and Scotland.—(Cheers.) This is
the principle which is laid down in the Bill which has been
laid upon the table of the House. The Right Hon. Mem-
ber for Cumberland has pointed out to the Heuse that the
first Catholic question was carried without producing
tranquillity to Ireland—that the Parliamentary franchise
was given to the Catholics of Ireland without producing
tranquillity there—and that, finally, the last great act of
Catholic Emancipation brought no peace to that country.
But what is the reason why these measures have not had
the full effect of giving peace to that country, and repose
to her people? It is not because much has been given,
but because more has been withheld—(Hear, hear) ; it
is not that the Catholics of Ireland are unconscious of
the advantages which they have derived from these con-
cessions, or ungrateful to those who promoted them, but
they know, at the same time, that all of them have been
granted with reluctance, and would never have been
granted at all, if those who -did grant them had dared
longer to refuse.—(Cheers.) They knew very well that
even when the last great measure had been forced from the
Ministers it was rejected by the House of Lords, though
within a twelvemonth after the House of Lords thought
itself under the necessity of giving the measure, when again
brought before it, a reluctant consent.—(Hear,hear.) The
Irish nation, I repeat, have not been unconscious of bene-
fits received, but they have been greatly disappointed that
those benefits have not been followed up by others to which
they were equally entitled. This is the evil which has
hitherto prevailed, and which it is our desire for the future
to avert ; and I cannot, therefore, agree with the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that because the concessions he has
spoken of did not produce all the good which was expected,
that he and the House are called upon to pause ere they
assent to any other concession, however calculated it may
be to complete those benefits, and produce that tranquillity,
which the other measures of which he has spoken failed to
bring about. Sir, if the course of legislation is to be
stopped because some measure which has passed has hap-
pened not to produce the good results anticipated from it,
the course of legislation will be stopped altogether.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman is very earnest
about what he calls pausing. I have never heard this phrase
made use of except for the purpose of delaying some, good
results. What I say is, let us proceed on in the course of
just, and even, and impartial legislation. I repeat, there-
fore, Sir, that I consider my Noble. Friend to have done
no more than his duty.—(Hear.) Sir, a great outcry
has been made about organic changes ; but his Ma-
jesty's Ministers have not spoken a word about organic
changes. We have not attacked the exercise by the
House of Lords of their privileges in dealing with this
measure as to them seemed fit. All we have to do is
to deal with the Bill as it is, without inquiring whence
it comes to us, or by whom it has been rendered such
as it is—(Hear, bear)—we have to deal with it just as
if it were an entirely new Bill, now first introduced to
the House—(Cheers and laughter)—and there is no par-
liamentary restraint to prevent us from dealing with it
as its present merits deserve, or from giving it every term
of reproach which we may conceive it justly open to.—
(Hear, hear.) We have to state our opinion in re-
ference to this Bill in its present state, and to consider
how near it is consistent with the resolutions of this
House upon the subject ; and I can freely say, that if the
measure can be put into such a shape as will ensure its
success here and elsewhere, the Right Hon. Member will
find that I am as far from seeking a collision with another
branch of the Legislature as he can possibly be.—(Hear.)
Here, as in the English Corporation Bill, we may feel that
it is most desirable to avoid any collision or difference, and
we hold that the best way to prevent any collision or dif-
ference is to maintain with the utmost freedom of discussion
the rights, privileges, powers, and authorities of the House
of Commons.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BROWNE did not rise to discuss the general
merits of the Bill, or of the subject upon the present occa-
sion, nor did he rise to discuss the general merits of the
House of Lords. What he
were
to'
express was, his con-
viction, that if equal justice longer denied to Ireland,
which would be the practical result of this Bill being re-
ceived in its present form, the whole Irish nation would
demand the repeal of the Union ; and he for one, if jus-
tice were refused to Ireland, would return whence he
came, and agitate that question. He had stated to his
constituents that he would take the first opportunity that
offered of voting for a reform of the House of Lords.
Impressed with this conviction he would therefore at once
declare, that if no other Member of the House of Com-
mons came forward with a motion to that purpose, he
himself would stand up, and propose a measure which
should produce some organic change in the House of
Lords._( Ironical Opposition cheers.)
Sir H. HARDINGE begged to congratulate the Hon.
Member upon the manliness and candour he had thus ex-
hibited in his maiden speech—(cheers)--though he could
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he had little to say in its present stage. He agreed with
the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, that though
it was a measure coming down to them from the other
House, it was their duty to consider it, not in reference to
the place whence it last came, but to consider it in refe-
rence to its existing character.—( Hear, hear.) As to
what the Right, Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
said in reply to the Member for Dublin University, respect-
ing Mr. O'Connell, that Right Hon. Gentleman must
really not feel surprised that Hon. Members, reading the
letters and speeches of that Learned Gentleman, should in
some degree connect his sentiments with the measures of
Government ; because it had been frequently stated by that
Learned person, both in his speeches and letters, that
there was a compact and alliance of the most intimate cha-
racter between him and the Whigs—(Opposition cheers)
—those very Whigs, be it observed, whom but last year
the same Learned person branded as " brutal, 'base, and
bloody," but whom he had now found out were not brutal,
base, and bloody." No, the Whigs of this were not the Whigs
of last year, nor the Whig-sof 1834, whom the Learned Gen-
tleman had described as the worst enemies Ireland ever
had, worse ten times than the Peels and Goulburns had
ever been.—(Opposition cheers.) The Noble. Lord op-
posite was no longer, it seemed, the malignant enemy
to Ireland that the Learned Gentleman had called him
as well as Earl Grey. If this Learned Gentleman was
to have influence with the Government, both in the
House and out of it, Honourable Members opposite
must not be surprised that the Learned Gentleman's
name was occasionally connected with Ministerial pro-
ceedings.—Opposition cheers.) He (Sir H. Hardinge)
was glad to bear the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite dis-