The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-03 00:00:00

SUN.

of the House. 'He had felt a great difficulty in proposing the
continuance of the circulation of one-pound notes. The coun.
try had suffered- enormously from the failuies of country banks,
and it was the duty of the House to prevent the recurrence of
such evils in future. There were but two modes of doing this :
one was the requiring of every person who circulated bank
notes a deposit of capital as a security;
.and the other was, on
the establishment of country bankS, the insisting upon such a
quantity of capital in the persons concerned as would be a pro-
tection against failure. In the banks of Scotland the capitals
were such that they were able to answer all demands. For a
century past only three banks had stopped payment in Scotland,
two of which soon after had paid the full demand, and the third
a great proportion—( Hear !)—As to the renewal of the. Charter
of the Bank of England, there was a necessary relaxation for
the purpose of erecting these Bank Associations. That Charter
had eleven years to run, and the portion of it which the Bank
retained, was not stipulated for under a pecuniary conSidera:
non ; but the whole of the conditions, and the subject of the
management of the public debt, and'ah pecuniary trultisactions
between Government and the Bank, would soon come be-
fore Parliament. All he asked : was the extension of the:char-
ter for ten years, and an immediate advantage was. Wven up
for a certain restriction for a limited time to come, in order to
secure the competent circulation of country notes on a certain
foundation.

Mr. MANNING defended the Bank against- the continued
attacks of the Honourable Member fbr genryn2 who. had on
every occasion sought to accuse it of • the most improper acts.
The conduct of that Hon. Member reminded him of a spaniel,
which would not attempt to touch even the mosetempting meat,
while the alphabet was repeating, nor would he touch it if the
letter 0 was omitted ; but the moment that letter was repeated,
he was ready to devour it. The lion. Member had stated Sit
intention of going into the details of the matter on Wednesday
next. He therefore thought that the Hon. Member ought to
wait until he came for Ward prepared to make a specific motion
on the'subject.
• Mr. ELLICE imputed no blame to the Bank
They. were right to do what they could for the benefit of the
proprietors. What he chiefly complained of was,' the conduct
of the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in
endeavouring to give the go-by to a question so-full of interest
to the country. As to the advantages' to be obtained by'the
measure, he confessed that he did not see them in so clear tt
light as-the Right Honourable Gentleman. The country cir-
culation went on now very well. As long as any individual
had an option to take a country bank note, or a Bank of Eng
land note, it was hit own fault if he ran an unnecessary risk.
With respect to the provision of the law, limiting the number
of partners in a private Bank to six, he denied that it was in-
tended as a protection to the Bank. It was a protection to the
creditor. He would object it every step of the proceeding to the
extension of the Bank charter. It would be quite time enough
to consider-the propriety of such an extension, when we hp••
proached within two or three years of the term of its present
duration, at which time the circumstances of the country might
render it inexpedient to continue the monopoly.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY was of opinion, that there was at pre-
sent no want of all the circulation requisite for necessary
purposes, where there was a sufficient security: He begged
to ask the Right Honourable Gentleman, with reference to
this new measure, whether it was intended' that the Bankers
should make any deposit of property as a security for their
paper ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, we believe,
replied in the negative.
The Petition was then brought up and read, and, after a
few words in explanation from Mr. Itusxissom, Mr.- P.
GRENIELL (who declared that he would not retract his ex-
pression respecting the conduct of the Bank), and the CHAii;,
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER., was ordered to berinted.
ROYAL BURGHS. _

Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Royal
Burgh of Stirling against the Bill in progresi for correcting the
abuses in the Royal Burghs in Scotland.. The Noble Lord
observed that he had sev4-ral Petitions to present' on the same
subject, and that he had several questions to ask the Lord Ad:
vocate, but that he had waited and watched day after day in
the hope of seeing the Learned Lord in fig place, but to no
purpose. He hoped the Learned' Lord would feel the neces-
sity of being at least once a .week in the House.—(A laugh.)
—He certainly understood that the Learned Lord had been in
the House on a recent evening after twelve o'clock ; but he
had contrived so skilfully and perseveringly to abstract him-
self from observation, that, with all his (Lord A. Hamilton's)
diligence, and with the assistance of the still greater diligence
of his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, he had never
been able to find the Learned Lord.—(A laugh.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that if the
• Noble Lord had exerted one half the diligence which he had
used in seeking for his Hon. and Learned Friend in writing a
note to him, he would soon have found his Honourable and
Learned Friend in his place. However, he would answer for
it, that his Hon. and Learned Friend would be in his place to-
morrow.

The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be
printed.

BANK CHARTER.

Mr. GRENFELL gave notice, that he would to-morrow
more that there be laid before the House copies of all 'Corre
snondence that had passed between his Majesty's Government
and the Directors of the Bank of England, on the subject of
renewing the Bank Charter; or rather of continuing the Bank
monopoly. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that
his Hon. Friend's motion would be unnecessary, as it was his
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) intention himself to present
the Correspondence to the Housse.
GRENFELL said, that he shOuld be happy to be spared
the trouble of making the motion.
On the motion of the Marquis of LONDONDERRY an
humble Addr-ess was ordered to be presented to his Majesty,
praying that he would be graciously pleased to order that there
be laid before the House a Statement of the Charges of the
Diplomatic Services abroad, from the year 1792 to the year
'lB2l. The Noble Marquis immediately presented the State-
ment, which was ordered to be printed.
Mr. CREEVEY gave notice, that on Tuesday, the 21st inst.
he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Act of
1817, commonly known by the name of the Ministerial Pen-
sions Bill—(A Laugh).
On the motion of Mr. HUME, an account was ordered to
be laid before the House of the amount of the Territorial Debt
of the East India Company, at their several Presidencies on
the 31st of January last, or up to the latest period to which the'
same could be made up.
OFFICE OF JOINT POSTMASTER-GENERAL.
Lord NQRMANBY said, that if he rose with less ernhar-
rassment this time than he had felt when he before brought for-
ward the same question, it was not because he presumed upon
the full measure of indulgence he then received from the
House. Nor was it because he had only to repeat the same dry
and somewhat tedious matter of economical detail. If he had
only to retrace his footsteps, he world not trespass further upon
the time of the House than to make his'motion. But he felt that
he had now a greater claim upon the attention of the Douse,
and he felt that he derived it not from the support he before re-
ceived, but from the conduct of those who had opposed him.—
It was the arguments they had used in opposing him, and not
those employed by himself, that had rendered the subject a
theme of animadversion from one end of the country to the
other, and caused the people to look with scrutinizing regard
into the conduct of their representatives. It was to them
therefore that he owed gratitude for any increased expectation
of success. It was to the course they had pursued in not
condescending to notice the details upon which he had argued
the uselessness of the office. Ile considered that his chief gra-
titude was due to them for having opposed his motion only on
the ground of its being necessary to keep up useless dffices.l-
- called upon the House to weigh well the detrimental
consequences of such a doctrine as this being acted upon.
Let them look back at the long line of spectral phantoms,
which like the progeny of Banquo were then conjured up, " to
shew the eye, and grieve the heart." Let the Secretaries to
the Treasury look on this till their eyes cracked, and let those
who supported his Majesty's Ministers stop with their regards
full upon this. Amongst the arguments used, the antiquity of
the office was brought forward as one of the reasons for re-
specting it. He confessed that when he looked to the Act of
Queen Anne which related to this subject, the antiquity of the
office appeared to him probleinatic. Another argument put I
forward was, the increase of business in the Post Office. This
might be a reasoir for increasing the number of clerks, but
surely none for keeping up two Noblemen, who took no pari
in the increasing business. Even, if they were provoked to
take a part in it, nothing would be more detrimental in the
details of an office which, of all others,, required singleness of
purpose, and uniformity of Government. These were the ar-
guments used against him. As for the declamation of the Noble

~:: '' ~''

PRICE SEVENPENC'E.

Marquis, whose warmth on that occasion was, as was usual, di-
, reeled more to the closeness of the division,'thait the Merits of
the question. -. His befog called •a rash innovator—an abettor of
revolution74ad,todoubt, its eff4t at the dine. But iCwas rather -
extraordinary that he had the Nohle Marquis himself among
the numberof the innovators. • He . had' set Lord' tlahcarty
abroad at the time he held his situation of Postrhastereneral.
He (LOrd'Normanby), however, did not charge-this upon the
Noble Lord as a rash innovation ; for he believed lie did not
advocatesi ivnonhhdslio offices
sihh Ist everlleolottdu)eioilhlrirtbdseart-eaodrlpbei
c:lealtetenrt
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know at the Curie what-he was doing. He did not.knetiv at the
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ait acrossbeen fireP o.
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sanctiondefend joint
of
the House, one of the Postmasters-Generhl of Ireland must
certainly go. • Before he attacked the strong hold of his oppo-
nents on the Treasury Bench, he wouldaddress afew words to
those WhO had shewn 'a disposition to waver in their' bigotted
attachment to his Majesty's Ministm, on the occasion of the
motion of his non. Friend, relative to the Lords of the Achill-
_ ralty, lie intreated them not to be Jed away by the attempt
' -Which had been made to place hint in the light of a dangerous
revolutionist._ In spite of the mighty State Paper which had en-
deavoured to effect this metamorphosis, he defied,thein to mag-
nify so humble an individual as himself, so as to deserve to be
ranked in the imaginary trio whose terrible renown was to
work such wonders. He intreated them to let this question
stand apart from all shch considerations, on its own werits.—
Let-them regard his motion as an innovation only in the light
'in which the motion relative to-the Lords of the Admiralty had
been considered. -Let it meet the same fate and he should be
' satisfied.' It had been discovered that the system which de-
fied innovation could just spare two Lords of the Admiralty.—
Might not a similar discovery be made by the same parties in
the' case of the Postmasters General ? The public opinion
' had been so strongly exoressed on the subject, that he had no
doubt Of the ultimate success of hiS motion. The country, it
must be allowed by all, was in a state to require all the, retrench-
ment that could possibly be effected in the public ex-Peiidi-
tore, and certainly after the 'shifts and expedients proposed
by the Noble Marquis,
.the othei'stieslit; they must, see that
the only Salvation teas, to be - deril,iftl from that "source.—
They *ere the !shifti aria eapedients of an exhausted -spend-
thrift.. All thathe asked Was, if among their luiuries, they
had any doplicateS; to
.giVe up one to the distieSSes Of Chase
who were dependent on thorn:
,It had been Urged that the his-
piovement of the, people ought to operate. as a check on the
improvement. of the Geverpment. This had Cane frinn a quar-
ter, which lie' was, however, "disposed to view in -'a favour-
able light, from ,the-affection he bore the individual Who had
promulgated*. - Ifis Right Honourable Friend' had made an
explanation, ,but in his Opinion it was a repetition of what he
had before said. HiSknew that he had put fOrWard the opinion
of Government. Nobody ever accused him of entertaining
such an opinion him Self. Had he not remarked the disposition
which the conduct of the Governnient had created in thejaeonle
to canvass their measures, and was it a reason for.keeinog up
useless places that the intelligence of the. people had .called op
a jealousy -or the Government ? Theory for reforin was no
longer local or partial, a and , was it the way to remedy that
evil, if one it were, by denying to give up any thing? - Ought
they not rather to teach the people to be moderate, by being
'moderate themselveS ? It certainly was not the way to oppose
that which was right. ' By skilful management they might be
able to direct that, the force. of which would only be aggra-
vated by attempting to choke up the passage with useless
obstacles. - To persist in such a course would only destroy the
lingering hopes of the people, and entirely. deprive than of all
,00ntidence in that House. The! Noble Lord concluded by
m
- .
ovinga-S' An humble italdress to his Majesty,
,reprelenting
that iris faitl,fl,l'
„ Commons, relying on his most graciouS 'answer
to former addresses of a-:. ti,„„. of his desire to concur in
! all measures of economy which the Lane-soaps of the aaa,,,
might require by Making such reductions in the civilailepart-
silents of the State as should seem eligible, most humbly re-
quest he will be graciously pleased 'to order the office of one
of the, PostsuiasterS General, to be abolished, in order that the
salary may be saved to the Public."
The CHANCELLOR of•the EXCHEQUER begin by ob-
serving, that the Noble Lord; in the course of the obserYations '
he had pursued with regard to the avowed opinion of a Right '
Hon. Friend of his, had followed , the gross exaggeration and '
shameful' misrepresentations of the public press. He trusted
'that:a British public would judge will more candour‘ard dis-
cernment of the conduct of that house ; and he hoped that the
House would not be biasaed in their decisions by any apprehen-
sions of what they might conceive popular opinion to be, re-
ceiving it in so distorted a aliape. lie trusted they would not
allow themselves to lean one way or. other, according as they
should expect to'acquire the most-popularity. The Noble Lord
had not acted (Mite fairly in bringing foiward these subjects to
bear on the question. The Noble Lord. misrepresented the
sentiments of the country on the subject of reform ; arid he was
convinced-that that. would be Seen when the oepresentatives of
-the people were sent. back again to their constituents. The
Neible Lord . had taken a very unusual course in bringing the
same subject before the House twice in the course of the same
Session. Although the motion, had been so framed that it
did not immediately go against the standing Order of the
HOuse, yet in substance and in its object it was unquestionably
the same. This was unusual, and very inconvenient.—(Hear,
hear, hear !).---It was inconvenient, not as regarded the present
question, hitt as it affected the general business of the House,
for if the practice were to become, commob the same subjects '
Might be brought forward day after day, although the House
had repeatedly expressed its determinant:la-with respect to them,
and the time thus consumed might' obstruct the -progress of
Measures which were of importance to the interest and safety of
the country. The merits of the question, having_ biTn gone
into before, he would not detain the House longer than was
necessary to-explain the situation in which the question stood.
.The former motion had not been rejected solely on the ground
that it was desirable the Crown should have at its command such
appointments as that at which it was aimed to reward merit. •
It had been defended as one. that it was desirable to keep up
I'M. the protection of the revenue and the superintendance of
the concerns of the, PoSt-office. The office was contended
for on the ground that the Post-masters were jointly respon-
sible and jointly engaged in conducting its administrations.
Would it be nothing, he would ask, that a revenue of not less
than 2,000,0001. should be placed under the control of a
single individual ? Though the confidence to the Noble In-
dividuals who were now the Post-masters, and which might
in almoit all cases be reposed in the persons appointed
to such a situation, might satisfy the public, could it be con-
tended that that power and responsibility might 'with equal
propriety be confided to one which was entrusted to two 9 He
considered that in every respect two persons were desirable to
controul and, regulate the machinery of that establishment,
which was important not merely as with regard to . the Reve-
nue, but as it affected the convenience of the public. Could
it therefore be supposed that any individual fitted to fill the
situation of Post-Master would desire to have such respon-
sibility thrown on.him ; and if such a person-were found, was
it desirable that so much should be confided to a single per-
son ? The questioh whether the management and controul
of tle Post-Office would be ' better vested in a Board, than
in Post-Masters' General, had come before the Committee
of 1797, and it was then decided that the former was not to
be preferred.. At any rate, it. was certain that the establish-
ment of a.Board in the plate. of the
,Post-NlastersVieneral
Was not to be preferred on the score of economy.—The true
question now was, whether it would -be advisable to place
the Posts Office under a:Board of foor or five persons of in-
. ferior rank, or whether it should continue as at present under
the superintendence of two:Noblemen of high rank and great
responsibility. Ile was aware that, 'much might be
.said in
. favour of either course, but he confessed that to his mind
the argument in Favour of the present system seemed to preclo-
nate over the considerations which would go to sanction a
change. There was, however, some difficulty in deciding on
the details connected- with this question ; and he had there-
fore, as he had announced, on bringing forward the Superan-
noationAllowances Bill, proposed to refer them to the consi-
deration of a Parliamentary Commission. The Treasury
would not trust itself to.go into the minute_ details, and he
had therefore determined to call for a Parliamentary Commis-
. sion. When the Report of that Cominission should be re-
ceived he thought the House would be more competent to
decide on the merits of the case than it was at present. It
was admitted on • all hands that the' business could not be
better conducted than •it was under the management of the
Post-masters. Under such circumstances pending the inquiry
which he had mentioned, he would put it to the House if it
would be well that they should Agee to the present motion I '
Mr. BAN/US thought his Right Hon. Friend must be
convinced that the public derived no peculiar benefit whatever

• itorn the.anpointment of two individuals to the office of Joint
Postmaster-tieneral, li, indeed, a Board were necessary in that
department, their there should be an umpire, or third person, to
give the casting vote. But here there were only two Noblemen,
equal in authority, and it was to be presumed in tenacity of
opinion ; and therefore he should say, that instead of being a
cc avenietwe of the public, they were likely to clog the wheels of
every mad coach which ran through the kingdom, and bring the
whole business of the office to a stand still. Ile remembered that
in a discussion on the Navy Estimates, a case was mentioned,
where there were two Storekeepers employed in one office.
They wore equal in authority, and had a common key to
• the desk. One of them fell sick, and the other, who had the
use of the key, in his absence robbed the till.—(A laugh.)—He
:sae far from applying this case to the Noble Lords who held
the office of Joint Postmaster-General, but he did it for the pur-
-pose of chewing how absurd it was, to expect any additional
security from having two persons in office. If the amount
sof the Revenue was to be looked to as a reason, then the
office of Paymaster General, which was regulated by the
Bills of 11.112 and 1813; was of tenfold importance. This office
had-been previously held_ by two persons ; but what did Parlia-
ment do ? They abolished one of the appointments, wisely
judging that as there must be one individual upon whom
the responsibility of office must fall, one was sufficient to hold
that office. The responsibility of the second officer could not
be considered as any thing more than nominal. If the office
were an office of trust, which it was, there could be no doubt
that that tnist might be safely reposed in any one of the
Noble Lords (Chichester and Salisbury). He could safely say,
that he never felt more concern at the vote of any motion than
that of the former motion of the Noble Lord, particularly
when he heard the arguments on which that motion had
been opposed. He was glad that an opportunity was now
.afforded to the House to reconsider the vote of that night,
and he hoped that they would consult their better judgment.
The Hon. Gentleman next alluded to certain measures which
he had proposed in the years 1812 and 1813, for the abolition of
particular offices, of which the office under the consideration of
the HOUse was one. The Right Honourable Gentleman, the
late President of the Board of Controul, the present President
(Mr. Wynn), his Right,Honourable Friend (Mr. Huskisson),
all supported the principle of those measures. Those mea-
sures were supported on this ground, that all offices that could
be abolished without injury to the public service ought to have
been abolished. If such then were their opinion, he might be
permitted to ask now, how far the circumstances of the country
had since altered or improved ?—He might ask, whether the
finances and the general resources of the country had so far in-
creased as to justify a departure from that principle ? He next
alluded to the terms of an Address to the Throne, which he had
proposed at the conclusion of the last Session, and which was
agreed to by that House, praying that the expenses of civil offices
might be diminished, as well as the number of persons em-
' ployed. The House was bound, in consistency with that Address,
to agree to the present motion. 'When sinecures were to be
abolished, was it possible that any one could say the office of a
second Postmaster-General ought to be preserved ? It was a
simple, pure, sinecure. When an Hon. Gent. who sat next him,
asked if the }louse would agree to abolish that office, whether
there would remain any more of that clasi ? He (Mr. Bankes)
said that he did not know of one, save the Postmaster General-
ship of Ireland. He had heard with regret an Honourable
Gentleman say, on a former occasion, that he would support
the office, because the reduction of it would diminish the in-
fluence of the Crown. He trusted that the House would not
act on such st 'principle ; he thought it' their peculiar duty to
sh ew the people, on all proper occasions, that there was a feeling
•within the walls of that House agreeable with their own—he
thought it was their duty to concede to public opinion every
thing not inconsistent with their public duty. He should,
therefore, heartily vote for the motion of the Noble Lord, and
he hoped that those who had concurred with him on fOrmer oc-
casions, who had supported the measures to which he had al-
ready alluded, would also support the present motion.
Mr. HUSWISSON rose in consequence of the allusion which
had been-made to him and a Right Hon. Friend of his who was
then absent from indisposition. His Right Hon. Friend was
preseift when the question was last 'before the House, and be
regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not then offered
what he had to say on this subject, as his Hon. Friend would
have vindicated better than he could hope to do the vote which
he had given against the motion' of the Noble Lord. Whatever
imputation might be against him (Mr. Huskisson) for changing
his conduct now, seeing that he was one of the Ministers of the
Crown, would not apply to his Right Hon. Friend, and on
-that account he regretted that he had not been called upon
when the motion was last before them to explain why he had
withheld from it that support which he had not thought it
right to give. He must beg leave to fill up the history of the
measures which had been named with some particulars at
which the Right Honourable Gentleman had stopped short__
The Right Honourable Gcntlerrian had been labouring for
some years to abolish sinecures, and ....We the Crown to re-
compense meritorious ss.s tees In other ways. Having failed
tdl2 and Itll3, he, in 1817, was so fortunate as to succeed in
a great measure in accomplishing the object which he had in
view. But it was then determined by the Committee which
sat on this subject that the situation of Postmaster-General
was not one of those which ought to be abolished. He had un-
derstood the Right Hon. Gentleman to be satisfied or nearly
-so with the Bill which then passed, and he considered the ar-
rangement then made to be binding on both parties. The of..
lice in question was not inldvertently passed over, but it had
been left as one which ought to remain in the hands of the Crown
to reward public men. He did not mean to argue that the Right
Hoy_. Gentleman and the House were by that arrangement
precluded from dealing with the situation as they might think
proper; but this he contended, that. those who had favoured
the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1812 and 1813,
might change their course after the arrangement of 1817, with-
out being justly liable to be charged with inconsistency. He
proceeded to thew the utility of dividing the duty of the Post-
Masters'-General's office between two responsible individuals,
but stated that measures had been taken, pursuant to the Ad-
dress of that House at the close of the last Session, to investi-
gate the affairs of the Post Office,' in common with the other
departments of the Government. Ile thought to commit this
inquiry to 'a"Parliamentary inquiry, must be satisfactory to the
House., and in this way they would best follow up the Address
which had been voted. He therefore hoped the House would
not so far depart front the spirit of that Address as to agree
with the present motion. The course which he had defended,
he insisted, was most in conformity with the Address of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was because he preferred fol-
lowing that Right Hon. Gentleman to following the 'Noble
LO•rd, that he opposed the present motion.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT supported the motion, and contended
that to maintain the situations in question were necessary, was
in fact to declare that it was necessary to give 30001. per annum
to some of the Nobility who boasted great historical names, to
prevail upon them to do their duty by their King and country.
Mr. H. SU,M NER, in consequence of the allusions made to
him by the Member for Code Castle, said, that though there
seemed reasons for supporting the two offices 'Or the sake of the
revenue, he fairly said. his reason for formerly having opposed a
motion like the present was a different one. He had observed,
previously to the session, and during -this session, that county
meetings had been held professedly to take into consideration the
distress of the country, tho Ugh at very few of them the professed
object of the meeting had been gone into; that persons were
travelling over the country to excite disaffection ; and that the
sentiments of these persons had been put into instructions to
Representatives. Something like the system pursued at these
meetings seemed to be followed in the House. Motions were
made for repealing'this and that, apparently to reduce the Re-
venue to inefficiency-, and the same sort of attack was made on
the institutions of the coutitry. One day there was a motion
to reform two Lords of the Admiralty—(A laugh)—Another
day to reform a Postmaster-General—where it would stop he
he could form no judgment--(A laugh.)--Though, therefore,
a reduction proposed might be proper, it would not be made
in a proper manner under the influence of such a spirit, and on
that ground and not on the consideration of the individual
case, he gave his vote. He should now repeat it with the more
satisfaction; after the pledge Of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, that the Pose Office should tome under the revision of a
Commission. •

-KgH. BRTG lIT totally differed from the last speaker, and
thought the House fully as ,competent.to decide on this ques-
tion as any Parliathentary commission could be. •
31r;TREMAYNE said;• a pledge had beentiven, on the
passing of the Pension Bill, to reduce all. sinecures, which he
should.never consider redeemed, while the two Postmasters-
-G-eneral remained. • -

•
Mr. HUSKISSON explained.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, when this subject was last 'before
the House, he did not find himself at liberty to deal with it as
a simple question, whether or not one of the Postmasters-Ge-
neral'should. be removed. The day before a motion had been
carried for removing certain public officers, and on the sic-
• ceeding day a motion was to be made against the whole body
of another establishment. He sow that a great delusion
prevailed, and knowing that such measures could not in
• the slightest degree remove the existing distress, he had
• hesitated .'to. give his, support to the motion ; and he rejoiced
that lie hail not been drawn away to vote for it at the
moment. •-•lle thought it to be necessary that the Crown
should 'exercise considerable influence in that House. He
did not wish it -to possess 'more than it ought to exercise ;
hut, at the same time, he did not desire to strip it of this at-
tribute. Now he felt-himself at liberty to view the question as
a sinoe-question, and he•-was of -opinion that they might be
justified in giving way tiithe exent to which the motion pro-
posed to go. They were blind indeed who did not -see that
-the great body•of the people had been much disabused. No-
;body believed that such a motion could relieve 'the existing dis-
,,tress. .Looking at it as a single question, he was not satisfied

with the defence of the office which had been set up by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore he was ready to
vote for its abolition. If, however, it was proposed to refer
the subject to a Parliamentary Commission, it might be well
that the House should wait for the inquiry, but if the question
were now pressed " aye" or " no" whether there should be
one or two Postmasters-General, he should say " aye" for the
present motion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY bad heard nothing in
the course of the present debate to alter the view which he had
formerly taken of this subject. He considered the office to be
one which, both in a financial and political point of view, it
was desirable to keep up. It was, however, for the House to
decide on this with reference to the opinion of an individual
He shewed that the inquiries which had taken place in former
years had led to results favourable to retaining two Postmas-
ters-General. In 1817, the final decision of the Committee
which then sat was, that this office was not one which ought to
be regarded as a si"ecure. The recommendation contained in
the Address of last Session had been already acted upon as far
as it could be acted upon by a Treasury minute, and further in-
quiry was intended. The Hon: Member for Yorkshire admitted it
to be necessary that the Crown should exercise some influence
in that House. /tut how he came to the conclusion that that
influence, which he regarded as desirable and necessary, that
patronage of the Crown, which he thought necessary when the
subject was last before the House, less required support now
than it did then ' • and why those considerations which in,
fluenced his manly vote on that occasion should now cease to
operate on his mind, he was wholly at a loss to conjecture.
He begged that the House would allow him to call its attention
to the strict situation of the-question. He requested that they
would look at the words of the Address to the Crown of last
Session, to which his Honourable Friend ought certainly to
owe some deference, as it was his own Address. It prayed
—" That his Majesty would be most graciously pleased to
direct a minute investigation into the mode of managing
and collecting the several branches of the Revenue." The
Treasury had done this, and Parliamentary Commissioners
had been appointed to make 'the specified investigations.—
He would ask, then, was his Hon. Friend, or was the Par-
liament, prepared to contend that the Postmasters'-General
should be reduced, without first ascertaining the opinion of
the Commissioners as to their necessity or utility ? If they
were not acting in the mere spirit of the day, without giving
consideration to the acts they proposed to do,—if their object
was fairly to weigh whether one or two Postmasters-General
were necessary, they would leave it to the Parliamentary
Commissioners first to give them information upon that point.
Here, indeed, he wished to join issue with his Hon. Friend
the Member for Yorkshire ; but he could not take the issue
which he had proposed. He was perfectly prepared to pledge
himself that the office should come, with as little delay as pos-
sible, before the attention of the Commissioners. He there-
fore thought, that his Hon. Friend, upon his own shewing,
ought to vote against the motion. He trusted the House would
feel; that in referring this subject to the Parliamentary Cam-
missioners, the Ministers meant, as far as they could, to give'
effect to the wishes of Parliament. They ought to wait for the
Report of the Commissioners, and then, and not till then, could
they consistently arrive at a decision upon the question.
Mr. WILBERFORCE expressed his surprise that his Ma-
jesty's Government should have avowed that the retention of the
present office was necessary for the purpose of augmenting the
influence of the Crown. The influence of the Crown meant, in
fact, something which would be called by a much coarser name
in places where plainer language was used than was usually
employed in that House. There could be no doubt that offices
were Oren to gentlemen to secure their support of the Govern-
ment on all occasions, whether right or wrong.—(Hear !)—The
sentiments of the Right lion. President of the Board of Control
(Mr. Wynn) had totally changed with the side of the House on
which he had been accustomed to vote, and from that change
of sentiments it was for the House to judge whether he had ac-
cepted office because he agreed with Government, or whether
he, agreed with Government because he had accepted office—.
(Hear !)--He should support the motion, because he felt it to
be peculiarly incumbent upon the House, in the present times,
to be careful of its character, and to endeavour by all just and
honourable means, to secure the respect and affection of the people.
Sir F. BLAKE said he was willing to give Ministers credit
for what they had done, but a great deal more remained to do,
which was necessary to the welfare of the State. He thought
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had done as much good to the
country as all his Majesty's Ministers put together.—(A laugh.)
He thought the reasons which had been given for opposing the
motion to be most preposterous. One Postmaster-General was
evidently enough, and the sooner they got off a second the better.
Mr. R. MARTIN conaemned the conduct of the Opposi-
tion, which, he contended, was rather dictated by a desire to
annoy the Government, than by any consideration of the ab-
stract merits of the question. He did think the admonition of
the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be a most
fair one when he told Gentlemen that if they voted honestly
and fairly according to their conscience, they need not be afraid
to meet their constituents at any time. He, for one, was not
afraid to meet his, and it was a proud thing, that out of the
hundred Members sent from Ireland, very few were found
to run from their decks in the hour of danger, and, like some
Honourable Members, to leave their quarters and get under
the hatchwayi.—(A laugh.)— He called upon the "Honourable
Member for Yorkshire to rally his impaired faculties and to
stick to his quartera manfully ; and if he should be placarded
for voting for two PoStmasters-General, he would be his second.
(The laughter which followed rendered the Hon. Member's
conclusion inaudible.)
Mr. MACDONALD congratulated his Noble Friend (Lord
Normanby) on his having returned to the charge with a spirit,
perseverance, and talent, which augured well for his public cha-
racter. Now that the King's Ministers had had leisure for re-
flection, and an opportunity of collecting the opinion of their
country friends, he had felt' some curiosity to see what new
shifting course they would adopt ; and that curiosity had been
amply gratified by the turn which the debate had taken to-night.
With the exception of the Member for Surrey, he believed
there was not a single unofficial person who had ventured to
stand up in his place, and justify the vote which he intended to
give against the motion. The tone of the Noble Lord (London-
derry) was indeed considerably subdued, quantum matatus ab
ilia Hectare! Where was now his high tone ? How had the
mighty fallen since the last debate on this question ! Humble
and. beaten, and retiring \from his former ground, this mighty
champion of the influence of the Crown, who had once de-
clared that without this office it would be impossible to
carry on the Government of the country, was now ready to
refer to certain Commissioners a question which had been
already twice decided in that House. It had been said
that the office was a part of the necessary patronage of the
Crown, and therefore ought not to be touched ; but it was for
the House to determine whethq that argument ought to have
weight with them. He would appeal to the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. F. Robinson),,who had made so strong an ap-
peal on a former occasion, in favour of the inferior clerks of his
own department, whether lie could stand up in his place and say,
that a second Postmaster_General was necessary? whether he
could say to those clerks, that they must be sent adrift, but that
a duplicate Postmaster_General must be retained ? Ile wished
also to know from the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) what he
meant by a very favourite phrase, which he had used upon that
and many other occasions " a well understood-economy;" it re-
minded him of what Hudibras said of pain—
" Simply, 'tis not bad nor good,
But merely as 'tis understood."
The Hon. Member then entered into a statement, to show the
various sources of influence possessed by the Crown, and con-
cluded with 'cautiqning the House apltinst ,giving their sanction
to the continuance of unnecessary pl'aces, with a view to extend
that influence.

• Mr. MONEY said he had listened to the course of the de-
bate, in the expectation of hearing it proved that no duties at-
tached to the offices it was proposed to abolish. In vain, how-
ever, had he listened for the information that was to' prove that
office a sinecure. On the contrary, he had the means of know-
ing that very considerable duties and responsibilities devolved
upon the holders. In the last year there had been 2,000 enclo-
sure reports, upon which the Noble Lords had to give their
opinion: *That they had great.responsibility was shewn by the
fact that no disbursements could be made but by the warrant of
a Postmaster-General.. Was the office, then, a sinecure, or an
office without employment or responsibility ? He was per-
fectly satisfied that if the office were abolished, it would be an
act of ill-judged parsimony, in which the feelings of the House
would run away with the best interests of the country.
Lord A. HAMILTON wished to ask the Honourable Gen-
tleman one question, namely, for what length of time one of the
Postmasters, he meant Lord Clancarty, had been absent from
thexountry ? He believed that he was away about two years,
and this was a complete answer to the Honourable Gentleman's
speech—(Loud cries of question, question !).
Ilr. MONEY was proceeding to speak again, but was pre-
vented by cries of " Spoke, spoke !"
Mr. MANSFIELD said, that from a conversation he had
lately hail with a Gentleman best qualified to give information
on the subject, he was convinced of the truth of the statement
made by the Hon. Meniber below him Oir. Money), and he
knew it to be the opinion of the Gentleman to whom he alluded
that it would be more advantageous to the Public, as well as to
an individual, supposing it were farmed, to pay 10,0001. to two
Post-masters than to confide the duties of the office to one.
Lord NORMANBY made.; few observations in reply, and
the House then divided. The numbers were—
For the Motion - - 210
Against it - - - 201
Majority for the Motion • - _l5
The Report of Supply was then received; and the Resolu-
tions agreed'to.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at TWELVE O'CLOCK.