The Sun.
London, England, 1836-12-19 00:00:00

POOR LAWS FOR IRELAND.

GENERAL ASSOCIATION.
( Abridged from the Morning Avertiser.)
DUBLIN, FRIDAY EVENING, DEC. 16.—The ITOcting
of yesterday took place at two o'clock ; Burrowes Kelly,
Esq., in the Chair. Several letters were read, amongst
which was one from the Hon. Charles Langdale (brother of
Lord Stourton) to Mr. O'Connell, enclosing 25/., and'. re-
questing the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to propose his
_ _

brothers-in-law, Messrs. Constable and Marmaduke. Max-
well, as Members of the Association. Another letter, also

addressed to Mr. O'Connell; by Alexander Galloway,
Esq. of •London enelosinc, 1041., being the subseripti,sts

of three Aldermen, 55 members of the London Common
Council, and 50 other friends of freedom residing h 1 London.
Mr. O'CONNELL then said, I rise, Sir, to' make an ob-
servation or two, with a view to correct an error which
appeared in The Sun newspaper, respecting what had fallen
from me relative to Mr. Arthur O'Connor. I am made

o say in that Mr. Arthur O'Connor was knavish. The

mistake was this. I did say, indeed, that Mr. Feargus
O'Connor's politics were a little knavish ; and indeed,

I must say, that they- are exceeedingly knavish, be-
cause that is the only suitable term that can be applied
to the course which he has taken.—(Hear.) The Times
said the other day that he was a thorn in my side ; nowthe

'imes never was more mistaken, for there never was a

man to who I am more obliged than to this same Feargus
O'Connor. He is making a great stir amongst the Tory
Radicals ; I wish him joy of his company, and I wish them
joy too of their leader. To my certain knowledge hettas

made them violate the law twice ; and I would caution
them against doing it a third time. He belongs to the
Tory Radicals, and lie cries out against me because I be-
long to the Whig Radicals, and blames me because I
help them. Why, to be sure, I will help them as far as
they will go with me ; 'I will push them as far as I can ;
and if they will go no farther, then I will go on myself.--
(Hear.) There is another class of Radicals—a third set

of miserable, growling, aye an undergrowling set, who are
even worse than the Tory Radicals. They do nothing
whatever for public principle, but everything against it ;
they are violent in their attacks upon the faults of the
Whigs, but they say nothing at all about the crimes of the

Tories. How different are they from the class to which
Mr. Galloway and Sir W. Molesworth belong.—(Hear.) I
don't care for Feargus O'Connor or for Mr. Daniel Whittle
Harvey. Neither of them are honest politicians. Mr. Har-
vey is a man of considerable talents ; he is a man of worth,
as a private individual ; but in his public political capacity,
the only one in which I speak of him, he is not honest. It

is true it can be said that nI
exerted myself to obtain a place
for him. I did ; I exerted myself as much as I could to
get him, a place. It is said that my influence with the Mi-
nistry is great, and yet they refused my request. And what
was the consequence ? Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey be-
came an ultra-Radical. I respect him in his private life, he
has been a persecuted individual ; but I despise him in his
public capacity, because he wants political principle. -We
can safely do without him. Yes, I leave Mr. Harvey and
poor Feargus to the Tories. If there be any one who is
not yet quite convinced of the fact that poor Feargus is
minus brains, let him only read his pamphlet against me. I
never in all my life read such stuff; it is most certainly a
beautiful production. This will serve as an advertisement
to it.—(Laughter.) But to come back to Mr. Galloway's
letter. It is a proof of the sound, wholesome feelings that
are springing up in England. It is a proof that they are
awake to the cause of Ireland. Whence did those feelings
spring ? How were the English awakened ? Why are
they with us ? Because they saw thnt we were not idle or
apathetic in our own cause—because they saw that we were
in earnest.
After a few words from Mr. CosTELLo,
Mr. O'CONNEL.L rose and said—Sir, I now rise to bring
up the report of the Committee, for the purpose of appoint 4,
ing pacificatory in the different parishes throughout Ireland,

and.l hope it will be adopted by this meeting. Remmy
Sheehan, of the Mail, talks of prosecuting us for sedition.
If the libel-law were put in force, is there a single Mail
that would not afford us two dozen of libels for prosecutions,

and, indeed, the Government also ?—( Hear.) But do I
suggest to the Government to prosecute the Mail No.
I would cease to support any Government which was afraid

of the press. I made it a rule when in active professional
practice,- never to take a fee from a man who prosecuted
for libel unless he agreed the truths of the libel might be
given in the defence. I am, therefore, not a friend to pro-
secution against the presi for libel. So far from encou-
raging prosecutions, I think any Government despicable
that prosecntes the press.—(Hear.) Mr. O'Connell then
read resolutions, with regard to the appointment of Paci-
ficators.
Mr. BARRETT seconded the motion, which was carried
with loud cheers.
Mr. O'CoNNELL then said, I have one word to say upon
the question of tithes. I have to congratulate the meet-
ing that Rebellion Smith, one of the most voracious and
ugliest attorneys, has quitted the Court of Exchequer, and
has declared he never will file another tithe bill in that
Court. He has gone across to the Chancery, and whether
he will meet with greater success before the Chancellor, is
a question which remains to be tried. It ought not to'be
so. Mr. Smith got good reason to leave the Court of Ex-,
chequer. He filed a bill against some tithe defaulters at
Cork. Mr. Bullin, an intelligent solicitor, took the part
of the defendants, and twenty skins :out of the thirty in
the bill have been declared " prolix and impertinent." The
twenty skins have accordingly been erased, and the parson
who employed " Rebellion Smith" will be compelled to pay' .
the costs.
Mr. FRENCH then read the resolutions of Mr. O'Mal-
ley, relative to poor-laws.
Mr. O'MALLEY then came forward and said, the propo-
sition I have come here to make is a proposition of conci-
liation ; and whom could it better become to make it than
a minister of peace ? The proposition I have come to
make is a' proposition of charity ' • and whom could it better
'become than a Christian priest ? It is a proposition, too,
for a re-transfer of tithes ; and who could it better be-,
come than a priest of the old religion, who may be said
to have a sort of de jure interest in them ? But, Sir,
apart from the question of the mere modus, or amount
of tithe, is there no grievance in that irrepressible re-
pugnance which a Catholic people must feel to be com-
pelled to pay a tithe at all to a clergy that has no sort of
earthly or heavenly sympathy with them, and whose' only re-
turn is but too often scorn and contempt ? But over and
above all these considerations, the matter of tithes is not.
question solely affecting the parsons and the landlords ; it is
not true in any sense they may as well be left to the parsons
as the landlords, inasmuch as they may with great advan-
tage be taken from both, and devoted to better purposes
than either seem disposed for. But as to the Catholic tithe
payers, on the other hand, I respectfully but firmly main".
twin, that however they may be warranted in calling for an
abolition of tithes, as a provision for the priesthood of
small section of the people, they have clearly no right to de-
mand or expect such abolition of that assessment as whilst it
would withhold it altogether from that sectarian clergy,
would reserve the whole amount of it exclusively to them-
selves. The whole number of persons in this country having
anything like a permanent interest in land, whether as owners
or as tenants, is scarcely eighty thousand, and the holders in
fee not much above eight thousand ; and yet the 8 millions
are expected to look approvingly on while those few thou.-
sand are thus abolishing a property which, if there be AO
right to abolish it at all after this fashion, ought at all events
to he abolished by them all alike ! Tithes are, in fact,
not only a property, but the oldest property in the country.
They are a lien upon the land of a date anterior to anY _
existing tenure ; and yet it is of such a property some per-
sons would affect to make a sort of /era naturx animal,
which, never having belonged to any one, becomes for the
first time the property of him that first knocks it in the
head! Tithes, as a distinct property, must have a distinc,.
owner, and the only way in which they can be abolished
'
is to transfer them from one such owner to another. They
were first owned by the old church—they were then trans':
ferred by Act of Parliament to the new ; and now they are
in a state of abeyance between both. Let tithes be abo',
lisped wholly as a provision, whether for priest or pars9l:
but let them be preserved inviolable as a sacred provistos.
for the poor of the united flocks of both. Let the assess-
ment ment of them, when they came to be changed into the poor.,
tenth, be made upon more equitable principles. Let fresh
or unreclaimed lands be exempted from it altogether for
certain number of years. Let the impropriations be par-c_
chased up at .their present value, so that all the lands in
re:
country may be subject to one uniform system—(Chee)
—and let the same amount of revenue guaranteed to_ the.
tithed clergy by the Bill of last Session be secure_der
them still by legislative enactment, to be paid out of
rie.!
consolidated fund, until the profits accruing from the p
be
sent, or a better management of the Church lands; shall
able to cover it. That is my proposition, and I think
safeg ree ioen sayingl;
e justthpayers
elitoltierent
the tithe receivers, and that it promotes the best interests
now
patty—theren inthteitisileightesrtsdoer-
of both is obvious enough. There can be no questior!
raitghittsdooefs
of Church property. The Church Temporalities Nu
Church
is a kingdom of another world she has any
Of the right of Parliament to make such an appr,op_r.i.a.tilloss
title to be placed
proved pretty clearly that it is only inasmuch as the
beyond the legislation of this, If the parliament had
right to transfer, as everybody- knows it did, the
of
h
the
wa
Church property of this country from the Church
of
great body of the people to that of a small section 6
lein,
would it not be* the merest impudence to pretend that the
con
0,
same Parliament has no right to re-transfer only a portion of
fi
conquered to
that property, not back again from the Church of the
for the benefit
1C
to the Church of the many, but fromboth_t
of all ?—(clear.) A tithe-rent, paid by the _an
the conqueror's creed, is just as much a memortalivifo.
tional subjugation—just as much a stigma of national

I

honour as a tithe composition. The principle of the ob-
jection of the Lords to the appropriation clause of the
Tithe Bill is, that it would be inconsistent to devote any
any part of the moneys belonging to one Church to edu-
cate the children of another ; for as the two religions differ,
the education which each profess to be based upon the reli-
gion of each, must differ also. But what though the faith
o 7 these two Churches differ, is not their hope the same?
And, above all, is not their charity the same ?—(Hear.)
And has not the apostle they both honour alike declared,
" now of these three charity is the greatest ?" Why,
then, may they not both meet upon this high neutral
ground, and expend upon a law of charity that will be com-
mon to all that consecrated fund which is now being scat-
tered, and likely to be destroyed amidst the discord and
strife it occasions ? The interests of all parties in England
require the introduction of a poor law into Ireland. The
three :great political sections—Whig, Conservative, and
Radical, are almost unanimous upon this point. As, there-
fore, the Irish landlords in either House cannot possibly re-
sist this double combination *of interests and principles
pointing the same way, their obvious policy is to adopt the
proposition which bids most fairly to lighten the threatened
burden. Now this I think mine does—even going upon the
hypothesis that Parliament should refuse to cover the tithes
out of the imperial exchequer ; for; supposing the donceur
offered those landlords, for mixing up the tithe with their
rents, to•be, as it is likely to be at the next Parliamentary
auction, a third per cent., it will leave upon them only
370,0001., the tithe composition being 5.55,000/. Nov, if
they were let off for that, and saved a poor-rate by it,
should they-not count themselves very fortunate ?—the poor;
rate of England for the last year, notwithstanding the reduc-
tions effected by the Amendment Bill, being 4,720,0001.!
It will not be quite 6d. per acre of the reclaimed lands of
the country; so that by letting the present tithe composition
stand as the real- poor-rate, and consenting to pay this
single 6d. an acre to the parsons, they will escape every
other levy, and will be doing, after all, nothing more than
what in justice and in honour they would be bound to do
independent of such consideration at all—namely, support-
ing their own clergy without taxing their neighbours ! If
we make the tithe composition our poor-rate, we save all
the trouble, and expense, and delay of a fresh valuation.
There is the fund already forMally constituted, and all we
have to do is to bring our machinery to bear upon it, to set
it in action. I would have no objection, howeVer, to re-
open that composition in any case where a majority of the
payers required it, and consented to cover the expense of
it. Utterly ignorant as the people of' this country are of
the machinery of a poor law, and the working of it, it
would be clearly prudent to place in the hands of a na-
tional commission, named by Government, a very extensive
superintendence, and a very peremptory control. I repeat,
with confidence, "let tithes be abolished as a provision for
priest or parson, but let them be preserved inviolate as a sa-
cred provision for the poor of the flocks of both." Let the
minister's money, also, in the towns and cities where it is
collected, be devoted to the same purpose ; and where it
does not exist let it be introduced—so that as there shall be
a poor's tenth in all the rural districts, there should be also
a poor's money in all the towns. But let there be a new
applotment of that money, so as to make it equal to all, and
everywhere light. But, Sir, to come to the third, and by
far the most important point of our discussion, is it not
righteous to secure to the poor, by the appropriation of the
tithes, the first claim upon the land which their own sweat
fertilizes ? I assert the right of the poor, without any
capricious and absurd distinction of impotent and able-
bodied—a distinct and positive right to such a claim. I
assert it as a right founded in the very nature of society,
and an indispensable condition of the contract that keeps it
together. The right of the poor to a subsistence out of the
land is not a mere moral or religious obligation ; nor is it a
mere natural right, inasmuch as in a state of nature there
could be none of the necessities that create it. But it is a
pure political right of the very highest order, and in the very
strictest sense, as being one of the primary elements in the
constitution of.the bed; politic, and the condition that alone
can sanction the inequality amongst men in the social state.
I deny utterly any tendency upon the part of a rightful
provision for the poor to make them idle. I maintain
there are far greater inconveniences in rejecting the poor
man's right. I maintain there are infinitely more tempta-
tions to idleness in refusing him relief. A right is an in-
finitely safer thing to deal with than a license. A right is
reciprocal and reactive. Give the poor man a right to re-
lief when in distress, and you establish a right for yourself
to test his distress, in the first place, with a rigour that
would leave no loop hole for idleness, hypocrisy, or fraud ;
and then to get in return for the relief you give, whatever
labour he is capable of, or to compel that relief from
third persons who would fain evade their natural duty to
administer it. But, on the other hand, how impalpable
and unimaginable is your "license. • The hungry man may
ask for bread, but he may ask in vain, for he of whom he
asks is equally licensed to refuse as the other is to ask.
But I will be asked—would -not a legal provision for our
poor
." inflict a serious moral injury on Ireland, by de-
stroying the active charity that now exists ?" Charity!
There is no question here of charity, but there is question
of rights. I am not here to preach a charity sermon, nor
to listen to one. Does the right of property of the rich
man in his wide domains depend on charity ? Then, why
should the right of subsistence of the poor man to a morsel
of bread depend on charity ? We have iron-handed, in-
exorable law for the one, and we are to have for the other
no law at all! Oh, the cruel injustice! Oh, the rank
hypocrisy that would fain cover it over with the fair mask
of, charity ! Does the " community of goods" of the early
Christians evince any desire to keep some in a state of lowly
abjection, that others may be able to look-down with. a pa-
tronising pity upon them ? . Or does it not rather, with a
fresh and generous enthusiasm, aim at placing all upon the
sante fraternal level ? I would not ask him to go thus far ;
but, surely, I might expect him, consistently with his own
favourite principle, properly understood, to go with me half-
way to that 'happy juste milieu which a well-digested poor-
law offers. In strictness of argument. this charity has no:
bearing whatever on the question of Poor-laws.----(Hear.)
That is a question of pure civil polity—a question which
points at mere human ends by mere human means—and to
attempt to dispose of it upon principles of a higher origin
and a higher aim is to study geometry with a telescope,—
( Hear.) But, affecting the interests of charity itself, I am
fully persuaded that those who talk of it thus are utterly
in error. Charity, like the dews of heaven, should fall un-
seen. It is thus only that charity, like the "quality of
mercy," is " doubly blessed—blessing him that giveth and
him that receiveth.' But how different from this is the
charity that sustains our public mendicancy—a charity that
"sounds a trumpet before it, as the hypocrites do in the
synagogues and in the streets"—a charity which, instead
of being doubly blessed, is too often doubly cursed—given
with a curse and taken with a curse!—(Cheers.) How
various are the _ ways in which public alms-giving is
abused. These are fully as often received by hypocrites
as given by hypocrites. They are extorted by the impu-
dent from the timid. They are cozened by knaves from
fools. They are won by the importunate from the indo-
lent and indifferent, and are as often prompted by a loath-
ing disgust or a contemptuous pity as by a pure benevos
lence. Then how pernicious is the effect upon the chari-
table feeling's themselves of this public mendicancy per-
petually hawking about its squalor and its sores.—(Hear.)
There is one man now listening to me, for whose opinions
I, in common with every gentleman here, base all that de-
ference to which they are well entitled, anti whose hesita-
tion upon the great principle of the Poor Law I for one am
prepared most sincerely to respect. But I would conjure
niy. Hon. and Learned Friend (if, in spite of this honest col-
lision of opinions, he will allow me to call him so,) not to
suffer his mind to be swayed too much by those e.r parte
fragments of evidence to which he bas lately so often al-
luded.—(Hear.) He has referred more than once to the
case of Holland ; but ought he not to make a large allow-
ance for the_ embarrassments into which that country has
been, plunged' by the violent dismemberment of her em-
pire ? He has referred to the United States ; but, what
comparison is there between that country and this as to
the ratio of population, of rents, and of wages, the three
chief elements which it would be the business of a wise
Poor-law to regulate ?—( Hear, hear.) None whatever.
Give me but the tithes, which would be taking nothing
from , any one that lie can call his own, and I un-
dertake to show how practicable it is, by a judi-
cious management of that fund alone, to enable our
poor, to support themselves. Let us not, then, be fright-
ened any longer from grappling with this great subject by
its apparent. difficulties. This Association was established
for the purpose of asserting justice for Ireland. Ought not
that to mean justice for every class of Irishmen ? Gen-
tlemen, you have heard much of the deep distress that_per-
vades ;be whole of the lower classes of your countrymen—
You have beard of it, but how fewsof you have seen it ? But
We have seen, and see it every day, and come into close con-
tact with it. I allude to my reverend brothers, many of
Ultom stand now around me, coming here for the first time
to sanction by. their presence the proposition I have made.
The actual state of society in this country is like a neglected
or diseased tree—its roots, which arc the working popula-
tion, baying no deep hold of the soil, can convey but little
of its genial juices to the trunk and branches, which are the
middle classes ; and what they do convey is chiefly ab-
Sorbed by the foliage and the blossoms—the light and gaudy
lordlings that flutter above them all.—(Hear.) I conjure
every man listening to me, that pants for his country's
Christian peace and repose—and oh ! "how good and plea--
sant a thing it is for brethren tq live in amity together"—l
conjure every man that is eager to introduce into the pale
-.°l4the protection of the law those outcast and abandoned
NM- that are coldly and cruelly shut out from it now—l
conjure you all, each and every one, to joal your loudest
l'oices, and swell the pealing amen chorus in giving this mo-
tion such an inspiriting reception in this room, as will augur
Well for its success in the Imperial Parliament, Sir, I

move tie resolutions be adopted. The Rev. Gentleman
sat down amidst loud cheers.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose, amid loud cheers, to
second the resolutions, when, at the suggestion of Mr.
O'Connell, the debate was adjourned to three o'clock to-day.

SECOND DAY.-ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Association met this evening at three o'clock, pur-
suant to adjournment. Long before the Chair was taken
the great room was crowded to excess.
On the motion of Mr. M. COSTELLO, EDWARD WOL-
STENHOLME, Esq., took the Chair.
Mr. O'CONNELL here alluded to the letter of Mr. Gal-
loway, of' London, which he had mentioned yesterday, and
he read from it the names of Aldermen Harrier and White,
and also of 53 Common Councillors, who requested to be
proposed as. Members of the Association ; amongst the
latter wera the names of Mr. Under Sheriff Wire and Chas.
Pearson, Esq. Amongst those gentlemen not Members of
the Common Council was John Anderson, Esq., editor of
the Morning Advertiser ; on the mention of whose name
Mr. O'Connell said that he was sincerely happy to see the
editor of that journal, by whose talent one of the most in-
fluential and patriotic journals in 'London was ably con-
ducted, enrolling himself amongst them.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. O'Connell then proposed the admission by acclama-
tion of the 104 gentlemen named by the letter of Mr. Gal-
loway, and remarked that amongst the many gratifying and
glorious circumstances attendant upon the formation of the
Association, the list he had just read was one of the most
cheering.—(Cheers.)
Mr. COSTELLO seconded the motion, which was carried
by acclamation.
A number of other members were admitted, and sub-
scriptions paid, when
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD, at half-past three o'clock,
having been called on to resume the adjourned debate on
poor laws, came forward and said—" Mr. Chairman, I rise
with extreme satisfaction to second the propositions so ably
brought forward yesterday evening by the ltev. Gentleman
who proposed them. Sir, I rejoice to find that any Chris-
tian Minister should have been found to act in so charita-
ble and truly Christian-like manner. At the same time I
must acknowledge that I feel considerable regret, when 1
find that no minister of my own Church could be found to
act in my place on this occasion.—(Hear, hear.) These
resolutions divide themselves into two points, and the first
question is, the taking away of the tithes from those who
have them at present in their possession ; and the second
is, the general provision of a support for the poor. Now,
with.regard to the first point, I accede to such an appro-
priation as being 'one of the most easy and satisfactory de-
scription of compromise.—(Hear, hear.) I before brought
forward a series of resolutions in this Association, pm-
posing a tithe assessment, including a relief for the poor.
I, therefore, say that it is my opinion, that though
tithe should be totally abolished, that I accept the pro-
position made by the Reverend Gentleman as a com-
promise that would be more easy to make, and that it is
one vow that cannot be liable to any fair objection. It is
not necessary at present to go into any of the details that
would be consequent on any appropriation of tithes, to the
benefit of the poor.—( Hear.) I should say that there
ought to be districts or parishes with central bodies to con-
*rout them in the making of the assessment. The paupers
of Ireland were stated at 2,300,000: he did not admit
that amount, for it could be shown from their own re-
port that this was not the case.---(Hear.) But admit-
ting this, one-fifth were able-bodied men—and it would be
bad policy of the state to provide for the sick and not
prevent the causes of siekness.—(Hear.) Then as to the
means by which relief was to be afforded: There was no
other way to afford it but by making the landed proprietors
liable. Then a system of poor laws should be aceom-
ponied by other measures, such as those for the reclaiming
of waste lands, and an improvement in the law of landlord
and tenant—these should be concomitant with a poor law,
and would render it more applicable and beneficial.—
(Hear.) He would now come to an important conside-
ration—the introduction of poor laws into England. It
had been stated by his Hon. Friend, that the people
were better clothed and fed before this period. Now,
Hume stated that before then the people of England were
'remarkable for the contrary. Mr. CraWford here read
several quotations, stating the state of crime, cleanliness,
and power of England, during and previous to the reign
of Elizabeth, which he contended showed
.that at that
period the people were in a wretched state. He also read
from Mr. Sadler's table of the comparative accounts of the
poor rates and revenue at various. periods. In 1601, the
poor-rates amounted to one-third of the revenue ; and in
_ _ _

1825, only to one-tenth of the revenue ; and in 1680, the
paupers amounted to one-fourth of the population ; and in
1825, to only one-twelfth of it. Thus it was that, though
it was said that England was destroyed by poor laws, yet
by every tabular return that could be obtained that she
exceeded, despite poor laws, in power and prosperity all
surrounding nations.—(Hear.) But the people of England
would not lie down and die as the people of Ireland did :
no, they would not.—(Hear.) Where had there been such
a report of pauprism as that made respecting Ireland ?
And when it was shown that pauperism had increased here,
where there were no poor laws, should not the experiment
be tried?—(Hear.) But poor laws should be accom-
panied by the extension of education, which would give to
the people such feelings as would tend to prevent their
havina• recourse to the aid of the poor rate. He would be.
satisfied with an instalment as the means of insuring the
full assertion of the right to a provision for the poor.
Mr. O'CoNNELL then rose, and said, I consider the ques-
tion as put upon the resolutions without the formality of
reading them over again ; and the more readily do I do
this, because it is my purpose to move that they be re-
ferred to a committee to revise and report upon them to
a future meeting.--(Hear.) This is the course which I
intended to take, and therefore not one word of objection
to the form of the resolutions, to the principles which they
put 'forward, or to their details as contrasted with the
speeches of the mover and seconder,-shall fall from my lips.
—(Hear.) The real qdestion is this—there exists an
enormous quantity of poverty in Ireland,
,to 'an extent
most frightful and appalling, and to an, extent hitherto
unknown in any civilized country.---(Hear.) Out of eight
millions, it is reported, and I think upon abundant
evidence of the fact, 2,300,000 individuals are supported
by casual charity for the entire, or at least for a considerable
portion of the year.—(Hear.) Nay, more, this distress,
appalling as it, is but a portion of the distress that is before
us.—(llear.) The crop has miserably failed in many dis-
tricts--in the western districts to an appalling and terrific
extent, and we are upon the verge of having an increase of
pauperism extending even to an enormous aggravation of the
existing evil.—(Hear, hear.) The question then, is, how
are the poor to be relieved ?—that is the only question.
I am not to be carried away or put down by declamation.
It is easy to take it for granted that a legal provision is
valuable to the poor, and then declare that charity and
humanity are in favour of that provision ; but once con-
vince me that a legal provision is good, and I will be-
come its unremitting and restless advocate, as is my
habit.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) At the first blush—
when the assertion is first made, that Poor Laws are good,
the statement appears clear and true. It has more than
once led me astray (if I may use the expression). It has
led me to consider that poor-laws are useful and necessary,
but its the situation in which chance and accident, and not
any talent or merit of my own, have placed me in Ireland,
I felt it my duty not to consider it in a benevolent aspect,
till I had considered its details—looked into its application
—and traced its practical results.—( Hear, bear.) It may
be said, that I have got myself into bad company in my
opposition to poor-laws ; but I am bound to do my duty to
my country, notwithstanding this circumstanes. The Rev.
Gentleman who has brought forward this motion, has also
got hiniself into bad company. Blackwood's Magazine is
upon his side--the Quarterly Review is.with him—that acme
of literary rascality the Times is at his side—the " blood-
&lien Standard." All the high Tory prints are with him
—Old Granny, of the Morning Herald is with him—
George Howell and Oliver Williams are with him—and
men of that class, at one time affecting great liberality ;
but when the "No Popery " flag floats over the Lord
Lieutenant at the theatre, he polls against the popular
party at the election, which he did in my case. Why did he
do this ?—because I was against poor-law ? yet, notwith-
standing this dislike to me upon that heat!, he voted
for West and Hamilton, who are decided enemies of Poor-
laws.—( Hear, hear.) I take my stand upon this principle,
that whenever I think the people wrong, I tell them. so—
(Cheers)—and mark again what is my conduct at this mo•
mcnt with the English Radicals, or rather with a section of
them, when I saw them acting in a way that made them
practical Tories. Did I not take my stand against such
English Radicals, as I now do against the poor of this
I country, because I think them wrong.—( Hear.) My
friends, the Hon. Member for Dundalk, and the excellent
clergyman, the mover of the question, do think me in the
wrong ; at the same time I will do my friends the justice
to say, that there does not exist a more honest, upright, or
independent man, or a better landlord, than the former, or a
.more exemplary clergyman than the latter.—( Loud cheers.)
But while I thus express myself of both those excellent
individuals, I must at the same time declare that I think
them both wrong, aye, egregiously wrong.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear !" and " No, no !") All motives—aye, and I
will add another, the strongest of all—the wish to relieve
the poor themselves—all urge me on in favour of Poor-
laws, if it were not that my judgment opposes my political
interest. Now, I will ask you, if I wanted a means of
rousing the minds of the people, by what topic might I
inflame them more than by means of this question of Poor-
laws, if I began by making declaration against the idleness
of the rich, and contrasted their luxuries with the wants
of the suffering poor ? Oh ! I was sorry to hear my Rev.
Friend introduce such topics, pregnant as they are with a
meaning so very different from what was contemplated by
my Rev. Friend.—(Hear, hear.) I oppose poor laws be-

•'•

cause I think the provision contemplated by them for the
poor only calculated to keep them in the bad state in which
they are ; aye, and to increase those evils in which they are
placed. I have examined this question deliberately. I
have examined it in the abstract, and I have pursued it
through all its details before I have laid down at night,
and in my bed it has been the subject of my anxious con-
, sideration. I may say it has been my midnight thought
and my morning dream.—(Hear, hear.) I have listened
to every person who could instruct me upcin the subject,
and I must say they have not been aLle to afford me more
information.—(Cries of " Hear, bear.") If a poor-
law be a relief; we are bound to seek for it. But if it be
merely a name and a delusion, really mischievous, and a re-
ward for vice, an encouragement to waste and improvidence,
it would be a violation of the best emotions of the human
heart to seek a measure which would give to the demora-
lized pauper, in place of his rich inheritance of industry, -
the paltry mess of pottage which would be afforded. him in
a workhouse. The cause is not to be settled by declama-
tion. My Rev. Friend has totally left out in his speech
one consideration, The distress of Ireland he has alluded
to, but not to the cause—we have not one word from him
about causes. My Hon. Friend, the Member for Dundalk,
follows a different course. Now, we arc State physicians,
assembled to consider the cure of our national evils ; and
would not that physician be worse than an apothecary's
boy or a loblolly sailor, who would think of mitigating the
disease without inquiring into the cause ? My opinion
is, that the misery of this country is created by a poli-
tical cause. I don't mince it. By the injustice of British
rule we have suffered for six centuries under the grossest
mismanagement, and the result is, that we have two mil-
lions of paupers. Your poor law would be only a quack
remedy that, in my opinion, would be productive of a mo-
mentary—a species of intoxicating and temporary—relief;
but when the effect wore away, leaves the patient in a state
of collapse, inanity, and weakness worse than before.—
(Cheers.) You want manufactures, you want employment,
you want wages instead of alms for the people. My Hon.
Friend alluded to corn laws—does he not recollect that
Ireland does not import a grain of corn, and that she ex-
ports a good deal—that she disposes of ten times more
than she can consume ?—(Hear.) Why the corn laws are
the only things which are of service to this country. But
they are a great injustice to England, and although I
have represented three agricultural counties—that of
Waterford, Kerry, and Clare—l always opposed the
corn laws, on account of their gross injustice to Eng-
land. I never could agree to a measure which took the
bread out of the mouth of the honest artisan to add to
the luxury of the landlords of the country.—(Cheers.)
God has made our country fair and beautiful, but man has
made among us 2,300,000 paupers.--( Hear, hear.) We
are state physicians, and are to determine how these evils
may be remedied.—(Hear, hear.) To my Hon. Friend, I
would say, Sir; I call upon you, then, as a State phy-
sician—and no man understands the system of the disease
of Ireland better than he does—to apply the proper re-
medy to those afflictions.—(Hear.) Sir, those who would
administer to Ireland a system of poor laws, as a cure for
her evils, puts me in mind of those quacks—(for poor
laws are a quack medicine for Ireland)—who administer
Morison's pills when the patient has been made hoarse by
taking a boxful of them. He orders them another, and
hopes that they may not be unpleasant initheir operation.
Mr. O'Connell continued to ask did he stand alone ? Dr.
Doyle might be quoted against him.—( Hear.) Let them
listen to his sentence out, he allowed it at one time, he totally
abandoned it at another.—( No.) Did Mr. Costello say no ;
he (Mr. O'Connell) would prove it: He had read a pamphlet
in that room, and the fact was one of his own knowledge.
He read the deliberate assertion of Dr. Doyle, that the
Poor-laws were to be based on the absence of the asser-
tion of the right to provision. Dr. Whately was with him
also, and he had also the opinion in his favour of Dr.
Murray, and there was that evidence in this opinion which
had stamped him amongst the clearest-minded of men ;
he had signed the document against the assumption of the ,
right to provision, and God forbid he (Mr. O'Connell)
should have the wickedness to stand there, and say a word
which could deteriorate the solemn duty of the rich to
assist and sustain the poor ; and it was, in his opinion, the
operation of Poor-laws tended to weaken that duty.—( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL here proceeded to review the injuries
inflicted on England by the Poor-laws, and to state to the
effect that her vast recuperative resources had alone sus-
tained and enabled her to bear up against their pressure.
All he wanted for Ireland was fair play—political fair play
—and that the country should be put into such a situation
as would enable her to develope her own resources.—
(Hear.) He concluded by moving that the resolutions be
referred to the Committee, and that they be also requested
to report their opinions on the causes of Irish destitution,
and the best mode of applying a remedy for the distress of
the poor.—(Cheers.)
Mr. LAWLESS then rose to move an adjournment of the
debate until Saturday.
Mr. O'CONNELL would move the adjournment until ,1
Wednesday.
This having been agreed to,
Mr. O'CONNELL announced the amount of justice -rent
for the last week to be 3331. Os. 3d.

Tl►e announcement was received with loud cheers.

Sir FRANCIS MACDONNELL was then called to the
Chair, and thanks being voted to Mr. Wolstenholme, the
meeting adjourned.

UNIVERSITY INTELLIGENCE.

OXFORD, DK°. 17.—This being the last day of Tenn, a con-
gregation was holden for granting Degrees, when the follow-
ing were conferred :
DOCTOR OF DIVINITY—Rev. Josh. Cooke, Magdalen Hall.
BACHELOR or DIVINITY—Rev. Frederick Charles Plumtre.
Master of University College.
MASTER or Aars—Rev. Thomas Turner, Exeter Hall.
BACHELOR OF CIVIL LAW--Mr. Higgs, St: John's College.
BACHELOR or ARTS—Robert Keate, Esq., Christ Church,
The next congregation for granting DegreeN, &c., will be
Jan. 14, 1837, being i,he first day of Hilary, or Lent Term.
(From the Cambridge Chronicle of Friday. )
There will be Congregations' on the following days of the
ensuing Lent Term
Saturday, Jan. 21 (A. B. commencement), at 10.
Wednesday, Feb. 1, at 11.
Wednesday, Feb. B,f at 11 (Ash Wednesday).
Wednesday, Feb. 22, at 11.
Friday, March 10 (A. M. Inceptors), at 10. -
Friday, March 17 (end of Term), at 10.

LITERARY AND SCIENTIFIC MEETINGS.
To-nAr —Statistical Society, British Architects, Marylebone
Literary—at 8, p.m.
TUESDAY—Lirinaaan Society, 8, p.m. ; Lambeth Literary So-
ciety, p. 8_; Belgrave Literary.
WEDNESDAY—Society, of Arts, p. 7, p.m. ; Southwark Lite-
rary Society, 8 p.m.
THURSDAY—RoyaI Society, p. 8; Society of Antiquaries, 8;
Royal Society of Literature, 4; Islington Literary Society, 8, p.m.

CORONER'S INQUEST.--SUICIDE.—On Saturday
evening; an inquest was held at the Portman Arms tavern„
Great Portland-street, Portland-place, on the body of Mrs.
Elizabeth Hoskin, aged 39, a married lady, who committed
suicide by drowning herself in a water cistern. Louisa
Hoskin, one of' the deceased's daughters, who was much
affeCted whilst giving her deposition, stated that her late
lathented mother had been in very bad health since the
death of her last infant, six months back, and was subject
to fits of great despondency, which increased upon her of
late, notwithstanding the soothing attention of witness's.fa-
ther and the whole of the family. On Wednesday morn-
ing last, at the breakfast table, the deceased was unusually
low and dejected. Shortly afterwards the family were
thrown into a state of most painful anxiety and alarm in
consequence of the deceased being !pissed. At length her
unfortunate parent was discovered in the water cistern.
Several witnesses (friends of the deceased) spoke to her
low nervous state for some months before the commission
of the rash act. She was the mother, of a large family,
and an excellent woman. Verdict, Temporary derangement."
The following singular handbill has been issued by
a Dorchester labourer, and it is hoped that it will prove
successful :—" A bill for a wife. Matrimony.—Charles
Warren, Mamba, Dorset. My family is a follows :—The
eldest boy is thirteen years old, and a girl eight years old.
My .house is my own, and I have no rent to pay. "have
an acre of potatoes, half blues and. half whites, this year.
My wife has been dead this twelvemonths ago last Shroten
fair. The children live by themselves in the daytime, but
lam always at home with them_at night. I do think it
would be better if there was a woman to look after. Ahem,
both for the children and myself. I have got eight shillings
a week for my work, and the; boy two shillings a week, and
have constant employ. I, want a good steady woman, be-
tween thirty and forty years old, for a wife. Ido not want
a second family. I want a woman to -look after the pigs
while I am out at work."

In consequence of the present condition of the
crops, Mr. M'Leod, of Cadbol, has kindly postponed his
collection of rents due on his estate at Martinmas, to the
month of February next, which consideration is truly
seasonable, and worthy of example.--Edinburgh Weekly
Journal.

A most singular superstition exists in the depart-
ment of .the Indre, in France, that after death-the soul of
the defunct flits about the apartment in which .it took its
departure from the body like a butterfly, seeking an aper-
ture to escape to Heaven ; and, therefore, when any one is
considered to be in the last agonies, every vessel containing
water, milk, or any other liquid, is removed carefully away
for fear the passing spirit should fall into it, and thus be pre-
vented from reaching its eternal place of rest.--Galignani.
The Messager de Grind says—" A turnip, weigh-
in has lately been much talked of as a prodigy ; hut
there is at present to be seen at the public-house called the
Cerf, at Melle, near Mont, one weighing 251b5., four ells
in circumference, and about two ells and a third in dia-
meter,"