The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-11 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

BO USE OF LO DS/ SATURDAY, FEB. 9.
-...*--
STA- E OF IRELAND.
it, short time before four o'clock, Mr. BROG-
D EN and several other Members brought up the
Irish liikurrection Act Bill, and the Irish Ha-
beas Corpus Suspension Bitl from the Commons.
I:bey were separately read a first time, and the
kfou's adjourned till five o'clock.—A few minutes
after .five -o'clock, the House re-assembled.
. - Tule Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that the orders
a the louse; declaring that no Bill should pass
Mrouzli 'more than one stage on any one day,
shOuld be swpended for the present- occasion.
Lord KING immediately rose, and sad, that before this
proposition was put from the Woolsack, he wished to ask
iii ;Noble Lord, whether the first bill sow proposed to be laid
before the House, did or did not contain a clause indemnifying
the Magistracy of iteland for all acts doi.e under it, of what-
ever description those ,acts might be ? If such a clause had
been introduced, it 'would he indeed a most extraordinary ax—
one with which, in his opinion, it would be extremely unfit to
trot the Magistrates of England, but noire peculiarly unfit to
tt trusted with the Magistrates of Ireland. If the Noble
Lad answered in the affirmative, that would be an additional
rneeen against the hill ; if there was any doubt about it, it.
waold be a reason why the effect or such a clause should be
submitted to the consideration of the Judges for , their opinion.
If a were absolutely necessary to pass the bill without delay,
Le certaiely should not' 'propose that the progress of it should
be *toot until the Judges could be consulted, hot he would sug-
gem that the Treasure should be passed for six weeks only, in-
stead of for the whole Session of Parlianient, to afford an op-
portunity in the interval of taking advice upon the effect of the
cleozso, if any doubt arose upon it.
, She Eael of LIVERPOOL answered, that this Bill was
a direct copy of that which was last in force. He had already
mentioned, on a previous occasion, that it was not proposed
to continue the powers contained in the Bill longer than the
le: of August next. It the circumstances of Ireland, towards
tr.e end of the Session, should require a longer. continuance of
elle measure, the whole subject of it. would then be brought un-
der the consideration of Parliament, when he should be pre-
eared to give it the fullest consideration.; but, under the .pres-
:tog circumstances now existing, he proposed that the Bill
ellcilld be passed in the shape in which it was brought before
the House. .
Lord KING complained that the Noble Lord had not an-
livered his question, namely, whether the Bill contained a clause
of indemnity. From the Noble Lad's' total silence upon that
Klein question, he must infer that he did not understand
the Bill he was bringing forward. lie could draw no other
izitarence. The Noble Lord proposed to pass the Bill for
:ore 'months, during which the greatest possible enormities
alright be committed with perfect impunity by the whole
Irlagietracy of Ireland. Now this was a most unreasonable
-eant,Vsition. To avoid this, he (Lord K.) would propose that
it should pass for six weeks only, which would afford an oppor-
tunity of trying the effects of the measure, with the smallest
chance of mischief.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that the Noble Secre-
tary had said that this Bill was copied from the last Act pass-
ed. In that Act, however, there was no clause giviog a pre-
Nions indemnity to the Magistrates, and therefore it was ine-
peetaut to have this matter clearly explained.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought the question put an
him was premature. When the whole question came before the
house, the Noble Lord would have a full opportunity of dis-
meeing all the provisions of the Bill in detail.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that this was not the
time for a particular clause. It was in the Committee on the
itill that the Noble Lord ought to propose what he considered
proper. As to asking the opinion of the Judges, it could not
es done on the point whether such a clause should be in the Bill
or t, that rested entirely with the House, but merely to ascer-
tam what might be their view of its effects.
Lord HOLLAND, speaking with great deference to the
Noble and Learned Lord, could not but think that his Noble
Friend was perfectly in order. The question put by his Noble
Friend was whether the Bill contained a clause of previous
indemnity for a'l acts which might be done under it? Reason
and common sense suggested that this was the most proper sea-
eon to put such a question. What was the question now before
foe _House ; and what did these great sticklers for order pro-
lecee to gain by this interruption e It was proposed, for the ptir-
oes of hurr9ing' these Bills throuei the House, to suppress
those Standing Orders which the wisdom of their ancestors had
assed to prevent such Bills from being so hurried. All that
his Noble Friend proposed was, that if there was any thing
ambiguous in the Bill, or which could not be clearly under-
stood, that this unusual proceeding should not be adopted until
that ambiguity was cleared up. Nothing could be more
reasonable.
Lord REDESDA LE submitted, that unlese the Noble Lord
pointed out distinctly some clause which could fairly raiso the
eierceition he propounded, he was at present out of order. No
utich clause had been pointed out, and, therefore, there was
nothing to justif; this interposition, 'What was ie construc-
tion proper to be put upon the clause alluded to could not be
agertained until the clause was stated to the House, and there-
ta-e-timis discussion was premature.
Tne question for dispensing with the Standing Orders of the
Blouse was then put, and carried nem. con.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL then road to propose the sceond
reading of the Insurrecti ei Bill, intimating that if it should be
carried, ha had a second Bill to propose, namely, one for de-
taining suspected persons in custody in Ireland ; which Bill
;Le he trusted the House would pass through its various stages
time night. He approached this subject with the deepest regret,
because he, in common with every man in the House, could not
bet lament that the state of things rendered it necessary to arm
the executive Government of Ireland with powers so large as
wore proposed by this measure; powers which were never be-
fore entrusted with the executive Government of this part of the
ileited Kingdom, but unhappily necessary on more than one
oitcetaion to extend to the Government of the sister kingdomee-
`i. he question, however, for the House to consider was, whether
it am not expedient and necessary—he would rather say neces-
sirye-either to entrust such powers to the Irish-Government,
or to adept some other measure of equal vigour. Time papers
on the table contained ample information respecting the state
of Freed ; but even if they were not before their Lordships,
he would have no ci,ifficulty to say that the outline of the facts
vetich had taken place in Ireland was sufficient, by its notoriety,
to cuake it the duty of their Lordship, on the application of
..
the Irish Government, to entrust it with certain powers to be
limited as to time and the nature-of the case, in order to enable •
it to restore tranclaillity and peace. In this view of the subject,
it would be sufficient for him to state very shortly the general.
*tunes of the case, upon which the bills Were founded, because
haetvimitted it might be said, and he had no doubt it would be
said, that whilst measures were adopted to repress immediate
OilitS4;44, the Legislature ought to go to the root of the evil,
sera at :a. m same time adopt such measures as would prevent
euet: calamities in future. The latter subject might very pro-
oerly be brought before Ptrli anent, for its consideration, at
araner season ; but he conte :ded, that when a house was in ,
itenat, the first step was to extinguish the tire, and then to eon-
mi4ar the means of preventing a recurrence of the misfortune.
—The. only point to consider at present was, whether the i
e--sh was sufficient to demand an extraordinary interpesition.
—Upon oho generel spirit and character of the disturban-
ces
-in - Ireland he would make a ' fete observations. There .
was nothing. of a political nature in these insurrections;
---tk.my did not arise from . any distinct object of hostility
to, Or discanteat , with, the Government, or relating to the '
Authorities of the Kingdom. They were unfortunatAy of a
eery different nature, and arising from sources, much deeper
than any such cause. It was impossible to look at them with-
out considering that it was solely an insurrection against pro-
petty, and against the lives of the owners of such property—
from private feuds, and dislike to individuals. On looking
,at
the teens of the disturbances, they certainly appeared to be-
confined to one part of the country ; but it was clear and a-
Tiornas, that the disposition and intention to rise extended.
through the whole, and that symptoms of them had displayed
themselves in the most diet:int provinces. It could not there-
fore be consVeted as a sudden ebullition in one particular dis-
trict, caused by pot particular grievance. It was. part of a .
cousected Aystenao baying a centre soniewhere whence that
aptent moved, to erObtace.the whole of the country. If it had
badea purely.local evil within narrow limits, one species of re- .
medy would have been enough ; but-when the house bd to
le* at the possible extension over the whole country', they
Must contemplate remedies of a very different character. There
would have been no disposition or wish on the part of the Go-
vestment to apply for extraordinary powers, if they had found
that they could repress the disturbances by thil ordinary course
of laws. Some years since, when precauanary measures of
nearly equtiA far; had.beenadopted to England, Irehend, on
ip..unt of its tranquillity, had been exempted from their ope-
ration.' ' Even after the oantheneement of the evil last autuain,
the only tnettalli vehicle they had taken was, to endeavour to
bring the offeadere to trial. In this they had 'succeeded : and
iilmvi been Loped and expected that the awful examples made
saameriok would 'have had the effect of checking. the evil.--
UtafotuasitAy that expetation, entertained both by the Irish .
askedarad,Xitsh blovernmetas, had bear diaappoiotod, and they
Milfin additional powers, after harong trial the force e

of the ordinary laws, and found it insufficient. I Trifler these
circumstances, he should propose two bills, which were not
new measures, but measures which experi-rce proved on former
occasions to have been effective in immediately putting down
evils similar to the present. He knew that some would con-
tend that the same object might be gained by an increase of
the military force in Ireland. • In this view of the case this
remedy would not apply. A military force might disperse
and must be employed to defeat an armed body of insur-
gents, but the object was to prevent armed bodies from as-
sembling. In those parts of the country where the evil had
not broken out, but was expected to extend, the most effec-
tive, as well as the most humane' system, would be one of pre-
vention. These Bills were, therefore, proposed as preventive
measures, directed not against the origin of the evil, but
azainst its extension and continuance. As soon as the imme-
diate perirto the public peace had subsided, then would be the
time to propose measures of conciliation. When that period
arrived he would meet it fairly, but this question, he con-
tended, ought not to be mixed up with measures of conciliation.
Their connection together, far from proving effectual at pre-
sent, would take away every chance of putting down the
existing insurrections. The measure proposed was a tempo-
raryfnieasure applicable only to extraordinary contingencies, A 2 d
in this view he trusted the House would hasten the consideration
of the Bill now submitted for adoption.

The Earl of BLESINTON could not suffer these msa-
sures to pass without some comment in the speech of the
Noble Earl (Liverpool.) If however, the Lord Lieutenant
advised the adoption of- such measures, he diti not mean
to say that his recommendation *as not yo be attended to ; but
if the executive Uovernment of Ireland was the same now as in
the time of the Duke of Richmond, *hat vies callejl the recom-
mendation of the Lord Lieutenant mini
be
'no dre than that
.of the Secretary of State -for the home Department, or the Irish
Secretary. If these bills were to be accompanied with some
measure of future advantage to Ireland, he shodld have the
less objection to them. .

' Lord KING thought it highly proper that the Bill should
Undergo some modification. If passed in its present state Par,
liament would have no opportunity of reconsidering it before
the Ist of August, a time when, it was known to every person,
in what a slovenly way business was conducted, and how thin
an attendaixse there was even upon the most important ques-
tions. He would, therefore, propose in the Committee, to
limit the Bill to six weeks in place of six months. It should
be recollected that this Bill was not first passed in the British
Parliament. It had its origin in the Irish Parliament, the
conduct, of which in its mischievous mode of legislating for
the country, was one of the arguments used in support of the
Union.

Lord CALTHORPE said, that feeling the strongest ob-
jection to the Bills on constitutional grounds, he thought it his
duty to explain the reasons which induced him to oppose them
at present. With respect to the Noble Marquis (Wellesley)
who recommended, it was slid, the adoption of some strong;
measures, he was quite willing to attribute to his recommenda-
tion all the authority it deserved. He thought, however, that
the subject for their Lordships' consideration was rather the
particular nature of the facts and disturbances on which these
Bills were grounded, than 'the particular measure recommend-
ed by the executive Government of Ireland. It was upon the
alarming, and in many instances horrible and revolting nature
of these facts, and upon this alone, that the measures could, in
his view of them, be sustained. In the dispatches laid upon
the table lie saw nothing wanting of those symptoms, which
threatened most serious and imminent danger, unless the evil
were put a stop to by some speedy and efficacious remedy. if
they could not recognize in the present disturbances that full,
tress of atrocity to which former rebellions reached in that
country, it was because they had not yet reached that maturity
of madness, to which, if not speedily put a stop to, they seem-
ed to be fast hastening. One circumstance peculiarly alarn:-
ing in the present rebellion was, that none of the causes assien-
ed for previous rebellions in Ireland could account for it. The
events now passing proved a frightfully diseased state of so-
ciety in that country, arising from circumstances not suscep-
tible, he believed, of immediate remedy. It was on these
grounds he thought some strong measures necessary. He was
not prepared to say that those now proposed were the very best ;
but at such a time it was not desirable to wait for other reme-
dieseeven though they might be more efficacious and unexcep-
fonable than the present. The Insurrection Bill had at least
this chiln to support, that it had been tried before and found
most efficacious. He felt no hesitation in entrusting to the
executive Authority in Ireland the application of the measure
proposed. They brought however, both on those who pro-
posed, and those who were to execute them, a very awful re-
sponsibility. As the Noble Earl (of Liverpool) admitted the
necessity of some inquiry into the state of Ireland, and gave rea-
son to hope that it would be entered into when the disturb-
ances were put down, he, for these reasons, willingly acquiesced
in the bills proposed.

The Earl of DARN LEY said, if he did not oppose the mea-
sures in every stages ith the strongest arguments in his power,
he would thereby evince that he reposed a degree of confidence
in the executive power of Ireland, which he teas not in the habit
of reposing in Ministers. Even though he were disposed, on
constitutional grounds, to vote against the bills, the nature of
the times would not permit him. This spirit was in operation
last autumn. He wondered, therefore, that Parliament was
not assembled sooner. This would have prevented the neces-
sity of calling upon them to pass vigorous measureasuddeKly.
The papers laid upon the table might furnish ground for mar-
tial law, but not for extending the Insurrection Act to all Ire-
land. The discretion which this Bill would give to the Ma-
gistrates was altogether enormous. The character of the Bill
now before their Lordships was characterized by the author of
a Ministerial pamphlet, as merely putting out the fire, by kick-
ing about the brands.—(Cries of hear.)—lf it was necessary to
be re-enacted, he confessed, for one, that he should like to see
the dispatch of Marquis Wellesley. No such dispatch ap-
peared. Ireland should rather be commiserated than punished!;
and, in the name of humanity, in the name of policy, he called
upon their Lordships to take the diztresses of Ireland into their
most serious consideration. The Noble Lord here adverted to
the meeting of Irish Gentlemen lately held in London—a Meet-
ing at which the Government were strongly solicited not to co-
erce, but to conciliate the Irish people. Ile hoped the visit of
the King to his (Lord D.'s) unhappy country would do good,
and he hoped the best from a warm-hearted Sovereign. But
notwithstanding those hopes, unless the old system of govern-
, ing Ireland were done away—unless the most odious distinc-
, dons were put an end to, it was in vain to expect that Ireland
could long remain as an useful ally to this country. Force and
division had too long reigned in Ireland, and tie trusted the
time would shortly come when a Government of conciliation
would replace it. An insurrection now prevailed,which it was
necessary toput down. When the house was on fire,the first thing
to be done was to put it out; but the Government would in the
end be disappointed, if they imagined that seven millions of
people would be treated as they had been for centuries back.
He was not prepared to say whether the proposed measures
were or were not the best, but he should feel himself guilty
of a dereliction of his duty if he had not made the few obser-
vations with which he had troubled their Lordships.—
( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CAMDEN said, be was one of those who
thought that the present Bills were not brought forward until
they were imperiously called, for; he thought too that 31inisters
were perfectly justified is pressing them through t" e Commons,
He regretted the necessity which existed for passing these Bills.
They were any thing bat satisfactory to him ;.yet, as the poweri
of the Irish Magistracy were too limited to enable them to Ist
down the disturbances, in question, he should give his support
to both the Bills.

Lord-ELLENI3OBOUGH observed, that he was willing to
join in putting.out the flames, but he wished that Ministers had
inquired into their cause.—(Sear, hear !)—He was most g.ie-
vously disappointed in the course taken by his Majesty's Xi•
nisters on the present occasion, He had expected that t e Noble
Earl wha proposed the Bills would have prefaced them by a
masterly and statesman-like examination of the situation of Ire.
land, cid would have suggested something in the way of perm -
nem relief. The Bill inunediately before the House was one
which he really dreaded to read.—(Hear, hear !)---He felt the
neeessity,for it ; he knew that rebellion must be put dowr,
and that the sword meet be met by the sword ; but he entreated
Ministers to consider that there was an elasticity about the
spirit of rebellion. It would rise again the moment you re-
moved the pressure, unless you removed the cause,—(Cheers.)
This observation wits, unfortunately, too applicable to the i f.
fairs of Ireland. He had been taught to expect much from
the Intents of the Marquis Wellesley ; and he trusted that
Nobleman would not confinebis efforts to then ere euppressien
of the present outrage, but that he would sound the depth cf
the:difficulty which embarrassed the situation of Ireland. Should
he not do so, he (Lord E.) should be compelled to entertain an
opinion of him very different from that which he had already
found. lie perfectly agreed with a NcAile Earl in believing that
a. removal of °Citrus distinctions would conduce to the attaiu-
merit of the object which they must all desire, but he never
thought that that measure was the only cure for Irish gri.nran-
ces. He thought it was the basic upon which much might be
built. It was impossible for him to sit down without slightly
glancing at the question of tithes —(Hear thought much
might lee accomplished in this respect; though he wale aware of
the opposition which would be offered by those whose minds
rendered them unable to distinguish that which was only very
difficult from that which was altogether impossible.—((hcers.)
At present he 'should only say, addressing himself to the t r-
unt Bill, that he should support it, but that he never in his I.f.'
gave his support to any measure with so much reluctance. Ile
would be the first to put down rebellion; but rebellion once
crushed, he thought it would be hitduty to call for measured of
amelioration, as t: was convinced thatovithout some tut ire,..

stitei it would be vain to loOk for the happiness or the obedi-
ence of the Irish People.(Hear, hear, hear!)
.. Lord RLDESDALE said, one of the great catiaei of the
• evils of Ireland was the absence of a resident Gentry, Be-
sides, there was an habitual resistance to law which not only
pervaded the lower, but 'vended to the higher classes.—;Hear,
hear !)—True, the Irish people 'lvere as sensible to kindness at:
any people in the world ; but thy were operated on by a dif-
ferent spirit on many•oecasions which he would not now more
than allude to. He wished well to Ireland, but at the same
time the Irish people should not only be taught,but forced into,
a submission to the laWs. Let them feel the laws to be their
friend, but let them also feel they will punish them if • offences
are committed. Let the great landholders reside on their es-
tates-let them dispense the laws at the Quarter Sessions, and
spew by their eiairrole, that they wish well to their own country.
He knew the mode by which obedience was often extorted in Ire-
land ; and that was by a man knocking his son down if he did
not instantly obey him. Such was the notion that almost inva-
riablAprevailed amongst the peasantry. There were other evils
at which he should now only glance. One of these was the mode
of letting lands. There were often five or six persons between
the owner of the soil and the occupying tenant; and, perhaps,
some of their Lordships would be surprised to hear that the
non-payment of each of these persons to the other was visited
on him who held thepossession, or, in other words, he who was
the cultivator. of the soil. He had often oceasion'to regret the
hardships under which that class of persons labouroxi ; and he
had as often thought that the only adequate remedy for such
an evil would be found. in the residence of the great landed pro-
prietors. As he said beibre, let them dispense the laws—let
theni fill the offices of Magistrates, and the laws and their ad-
ministrators would be the more respected. By measures of a
similar nature they might expect to reduce the dis4trbance..—
Unless some measure was hit upon, that the tithes might not
be taken in kind, they could not expect any good effect, as the
principal part must be.effccfed by the proprietors of the land.—
And lie should think the person who was in the office of. Lord
Lieutenant unfit for Ins office, if he should attempt to lay be-
fore the Government the true state of the country, in the short
time he ha:l been there:

Leal HOLLAND agreed in most of the general observa-
tions Which had fallete from the Noble Lord who hattpreceeded
him but there was One little circumstance upon which he dif.'
fered from them all. He meant the trifling circumstance of
their agreeing to the Bill ; while he intended to oppose
(A laugh.)—fie wau•surpised that a Noble Lord who professed
to feel a constitutional jealousy of those Bills should now give
therh his support. The Noble Lord (Ellenborough) had de-
clared his intention to support the Bills; but that he should
do so with considerable reluctance.—He (Lord Holland) ho-
noueed the feeling by which that Noble Lord was governed ;
but he - could not agree with him that the Bill would be effi.
cacions, or that it would tend to allay .the disturbances.
If he thought itaiduld, he should support the Bill,-but in do-
ing so, he should feel humiliated as an Englishman and a
Member of Parliament, at the sacrifice be was making of so
considerable a part of the Constitution.—(llear, hear, hear !)
lle would in fact hardly ild any thing but repeat what his Noble
friend had said,—that die was driven, by necessity, to give
his vote against this measure, as he did not consider it as an ef-
ficacious remedy for the disorders which heel existence. His
vote would be consistent with all his pult;ic life, and he had not
come to the conclusion of voting against the Bill without some
degree of difficulty. He could boaet of no great personal inti-
macy with Lord Virellesley, but he bad not the slightest objec-
tion to confide the
,authority. to be vested in him. The Noble
Lord had said, that " *hen the house was on fire they must
extinguish the flames ;" but were the flames to be extinguished
by scattering the brands ? No, rather by Water. Military force
was the proper means of extinguishing the flurries. In the pro-
vince of Leiaster, they had been able to prevent the depredae
dons by military force. By the letter of Wilson from Tipperary,
the Insurrection Act is mentioned, and no where else. The bars
then of the song has always been, " want of military force." The
power of transporting offenders, when taken, could not prevent
the outrages.. Such an Act would he lodging arbitrary power
in the hands of the Magistrates ; which was not to be found
in England. The persons intrusted with the
.power were the
most unfit in the country. He had the same opinion of the Ma-
gistracy of all countries, and lie would not make any exception
in favour of Ireland. The effects of it in that country were I
known to every body thr the last twenty years, and this would
be a fresh measure to gall the too much irritated people of Ire-
land. Another, and a powerful objection to the Bill was, its
liability to abuse.—( Hear, hear!)—lt was a fundamental maxim,
that all power was liable to abuse, and it could not be denied
that power of this nature was especially so. Did not his Ma-
jesty s Government, who proposel this Bill, know that thomost
atrocious abuses which had ever disgraced the annals of any
country upon the face of the earth haebeen perpetrated by those
who lied the administration of the terrible penalties eof these
laws ? (one of the melancholy effects of such a system of vio-
lent law was, that the bad. spirit which it provoked led to the ex-
ercise and indulgence of every passion in retaliation.—(
Even just resentment in the breast of a Judge was considered
as a ground for disqualifying him : and yet it was the
tracy of Ireland, labouring us they were under feelings most
strongly, excited, that the present Bill proposed to arm with
power over those whom they conceived to have injured them.
The consequence of such an injudicious delegation of power
had been seen in the operation of former Insurrection Acts; it
occasioned among all the Magistracy a desire for the renewal
of their power. Even a just Magistrate, when he found he
could not vanish a particular .oll'ence, wished fur the almost
unlimited power which lie possessed. before, though he might
not wish to abuse it; a bad Magistrate recollected that upon
a former occasion he had the means of gratifying • his passions,
and he naturally wished fin. the means of gratifying them again.
The dreadful state of society which was the result could not
be contemplated without the most heartfelt alarm and dismay.-
The evil example of such measures, both upon the 31agistrates
anti the people, was also a crying evil. A Noble Lord (Re-
deshlale) had. said that the melancholy state of Ireland lin
such, that from the highest to the lowest, the laws were dis-
obeyed. Was this universal disrespect of the law likely to be
remedied by measures of corrects- ? by tiolentand revo-
lutionary laws, which converted petty Magistrates into the
'tyrants of their vicinity ? It was a very remarkable circum-
siance, that since the Union, there never had been sire, eight,
or twelve months, in the long course of twenty years, in which
if the Irish Magistracy, or the predominating part of them,
were asked what remedy they should apply to local evils, that
they would not have answered, "Give us an Insurrection Act."
In fact, no Lard Lieutenant had ever set his foot in Ireland
without being beset by the emissaries of faction, without hay-
ing every attempt made to envelope his mind in the midst of
every species of delusion. There was always in Irefand a
party who lived by the abuse of their influence with Govern-
ment : if the Chief. Governor were a weak man, they used
all this to create an alarm in his mind ; if he were a man of
spirit, they put him on his nettle—aired this system was prac-
tised, with every ingenuity of intrigue, from one end of the
' country to the other. If these Bills were passed, there might
. to be same pledge or security given that the Government of
this country were about to direct their minds to the subject of -
the distress of Ireland. One objection he had to the measures
was, that they would operate as a bar to any improvement in
the state of things in that country. During a former period of
distuebance in that country, when it had been complained that
the powers granted to quell these disturbances had been used ,
for the persecution of the Protestants, it was answered that
they were only employed. against those who were attached to
Bonaparte. But these powers had been entrusted to Catholics
who took the opportunity of paying off the debt thee from long
animosity towards their Protestant neighbours. /f a man
were a Protestant, in their eyes he was a friend to Bona-
parte. 'Thus he foresaw that this would become a war of reli-
gion betwixt the difilifent-sect.a The Noble Earl opposite (the
E of Liverpool} had told them that the disease under which
Ireland was labouring was crganic, and insinuated that it re.
quired all the' wiadom of all the faculty to administer to it. It
was to be borne ill mind that the Noble Earl had been the fa-
mily physician to this unfortunate patient for the last twelve
years. It was he who had all along felt her pulse, but- never
before had-Fie -id one word about this organic complaint. The
Noble Lord and hid colleagues were to go into a consideration
of her specific complaint, however, but it would be under a
stipulation that they 'would avoid every question touching the
Lading cause of the malady. What was to done with the Ca-
tholics ?-=what with- the tithe system ? The absence of thee
great proprietors • was 'unquestionably a great misfortune, am/
owing in a great degree to the connection of that country with
England. That evil, however, hat been much exaggerated, an d' if
they would but extend to Ireland the law of England it would
be much lessened. A general contempt for law had arisen
atnnagst all classes from misgovernment. It existed in equal'
proportion from the duellist with his false sense of honour, to
• the bo.trotter who went, at night to steal. his debtor's cow, to-
avoid the ignominy of empioyiag a bailiff to recover his lawful
d:bt by due course of lie could not conclude without
observiag, that if the Marquis Wellesley th6ught these mea-
sures necessary, it should have appeared in the official papers'
before the House. Ile should vote against the measures, on
the grounds lie had ,stated; and especially because he regarded
them as-standing in the way of the further improvement of the
country, from the bad example they set to the Magistracy of
the Cotmtry.-41 Lear , • -
The Duke of WELLINGTON declined' following the
Noble Lord who had just sat down, into all the details he had
so ably handled.; tie rose more particularly to' address himself
to-the empftintenttof - the military force under the Lord Lieu,
'tenant, &tore he entered upon that part of the, questisn,
lhowever, he would remind their Lordships that the Insurrec-
' tion Bill did not go to impose a perpetual continuance of the
coercion it authorised.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—That law re-
quired that the Lord Lieutenant should proclaim the particia-
lar districts -bet.= it could be applied tie them, upon the repre--

. „ .
sentation of the local Magistrates that it was necessary. The
Lord Lieutenant, therefore it should be borne in mind, was
responsible for the district's he proelaimed.—(Hear, hear, hear !)
He thought he would be found to deserve the confidence which
their Lordships had Unanimously expressed themselves pre-
pared-to repose in him, and that no p-trt of the country would
be placed under the operation of this law whose situation
did not demand it.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—With respect to
the application of a larger military. force, he believed it
would be found that -there was at the present time in Ireland
larger force, nearly double what was there at the commence-
ment of the late war. It was true that the eiectition of
this law necessarily required fbeCe, but he believed there
wa.4 -as large a force there at present as could well be em-
ployed under existing circumstances. 13y, the papers be-
fore the House it appeared that there were in some parts a re-
bel force in that country, which by military force alorie could
be pnt down. In others, matters were carrlc4l on differently.
In thoseparts it was the practice to go about at night and. rob
dwelling houses of arms. Although it did not appear by these
papers, yet, the fact was that in many instances houses which
actually joined the walls of the barracks had been plundered 1
in this way. It was plain, therefore, there was an evil, with
which the military could not cope in its present shape,
and would not be more so if there were double the number of
troops.—(Hear, hear 4 hear !)—And there was in . fact no mode
of dealing with such offences but by requiring. the inhabi.
tants to keep in their hOuses by night, and 'to give the Ma-
gistrates the power to oblige them if they were 'unwilling.—
n this the military would be able to render them effectual as-
sistance—(Hear.)—and although this required the use of great
force; yet for such districts only as it might be found necessary
to proclaim, there was quite enough. He repeated; the Lord
Lieutenant would be responsible in every case in which he
should proclaim a district, and if their Lordships felt that con-
fidence in him they had been pleased to expreSs, and Which he
hoped he deserved, they would not hesitate to pass the inea-
sure:—(Hear, hear.) ,

The Duke, of BUCKINGHAM, was of opinion, that upon
the speedy adoption of 'these measdres depended the safety of
Ireland. He was willing not only to place confidence in his
Noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but would,
under similar circUmstances, place the same in any Government
of that country. With regard to the Noble Lord's (Lord Hol-
land's) objection to the Magistracy, because theywere prejudiced
persons, he begged to ask, wodld that Noble Lord, if his house
was on fire by incendiaries, and his cattle being driven away,
refuse to act in defenee of his property, because he was an in-
terested, and diefefoie, prejudiced person ? It Was their first
duty to look the situation of that country in the face, and then
set about to instil better feelings in the hearts of the people—
(Hear !)
Lord CA LTHORPE explained.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that although there
wonld be no inconsistency in the two votes be should give
that night, he thought it necessary to say a few words on the
subject of I hem. The one vote would be, as regarded the
means itself, and the other. as to the period of duration.
With regard to the first, which was the most 'urgent, 'un-
doubtedly it would be with • hesitation that he should give a
rote affecting the liberties of millions of his fellow subjects.
But from imperious over-ruling necessity he felt bound to
• give a vote in favour of it. With-respect to the.other Bill he
confessed he did not clearly perceive the necessity of it, but_
be supposed it was to rest on the responsibility of the Go-
vernment of Ireland. Referring to that responsibility, he
begged to say, that he adathed much importance to the fact
of the power being placed in the bands it was t for as the
Noble Duke opposite had said (the Duke of Wellington,)
much of the details of the measure depended on. the discre-
tion of the Nobleman at the head of the Government of Ire-
land ; and he was happy to be able to feel that confidence in
him which-he did. It had been stated, however, that there
would have been a difficulty in that. Noble Marquis expressing
his opinion as to the expediency of applying certain laws, and
he could very well understand that it would have been untie_
corning in the Noble Marquis to point oat in a tone of dicta-
tion to the Parliament of England, the pttcise laws among
the many they had to choose from. • But Would there hare
been any difficulty in his stating the etact nature of the evil,
and directing their attention to where the existing laws.were
deficient ? There was the precedent of Lord Whitworth,
who had taken that course >i feiv years ago when; Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. lie had given a legal as well as
military description of the state of the country which he was
employed to govern. Was he to be told that the Marquis
Wellesley was ineampetent to such a task ? They had a right
to expect from hint such an enlarged view. There were no
doubt some papers in the blinds of Government on this sub-
ject, which, if they were where they ought to have been, on
the table of that House, they world knoW that the Marquis •
Wellesley had expressed the opinion attributed to him. With
regard to the coercive measures to be adopted towards Ire-
land; when he recollected that such measures had been sane- '
tioned by Mr. Grattan, the greatest man that country had
ever produced, who watched over the interests of his coun-
trymen with the feelings of a father, and looked at them with
the foresight of a'statesinan, he felt strehgthened in the cause
which he had resolved to pursue. When he saw the waters
of bitterness had begun to flow, and threatened to overwhelm
the whole face of society, which he believed to be the state
of the south of Ireland, he was obliged to adopt the only re-
medy that could tie administered. Their first duty was to
rut down the existing evil, and then take steps to fortify so-
ciety against a recurrence of it. It was upon these grounds that
he thotight heshirulduot be justified in withholding his unwill-
ing assent. They had been told of the experience they had bad
of these laws, as an advantage. But he thought that expe-
rience told the other way. As a' proof of this, he would quote
the opinion of a Learned itidge,dellivered as a warning to the
Grand Jury of a County. He described the Insurrection' Act
as one which suspended the whole Constitution' of England,
and one under Which he had haown a case of a person being •
sent a trip across the Atlantic solely for the purpose of void-
ing a beneficial lease. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
knew many respectable persons in Ireland who refused to he
pt.tt in the Commission of-the Peace from the disinclination
they felt to associate with those who would become their .
colleagues in such a case. This he stated front his awn
knowledge. and he dwelt on the fact, from. a !tope that the.
Government of Ireland wouldaurll its attention to purifying
the-Magistracy, and take the precaution not to admit into
that -body any but such as were qualified by respectability
and integrity. He preferred entrusting the application of
coercive measures to a military force,. because they were nOt
affected by• those local prejudices which the Civil Autho-
rities could not escape; their interference began and ceased
with the disorders they were called upon to repress ; they
came into the country for that purpose, and they left it with-
out placing the lower orders in that rancorous opposition to
each other, which would have been created had the same co-
ercion beets inflicted by toasters alid neighbOurs, with whom
they looked to be bound by another tie. With regard to the
period of the Insurrection-Act, proposed by his Noble Friend
(Lord King,) to be six weeks, he presumed drat such a limita-
tion was not founded on any opinion that it•Woald be sufficient
for the redaction of the dist radiances; but by that time the
Home might have sufficient informat'i'on on the matter, as
to determine them to modify some of the clauses; particu-
larly that exceptionable part which did away with the trial
by Jury, and that which made offenders under the statute
punishable as felons. If these Acts were to he understood
as affording a pretext, or the shadow of a pretext,•for defer-
riag the conaidera' ion of the state of Ireland, he should
think that he departed from his duty as a Member of Par-
lihment, and as an Englishman, if he agreed to them. What
had Breen done fir that country daring the last twenty
years ? if the views -of those who had pledged themselves
to redress her gri'eva'nces at that time had been redeem-
ed, what might not have been done? if the nostrum of
delay had not found its way into the arcana of State.
how different might now he the state of Ireland—bow much
blood mig-Itt have been spared They had now, how-
ever, artived at a period when they could no longer delay.
Whatever disposition there uriebt be in that House or else•
where to shrink from that consideration=-if they valued the
safety of the country—if they hoped to protect the Constitu-
tion-Lif they hapt.d roprotra the Choral, whiuh were endan-
gered, they were. bound nr.t to yilela to that disposition: If,
from whatever cause or motive, Government war must pro-
pared to face this question,. what sea; the policy they were .
pursuing? Senn persoart•were dr& to exereise' the great
powers they held in the acme of the country. While he
a.sseotret, therefore, to the present enactment of these mea-
sures, he did so tinder the limitation of his Noble Friend
(Lord King), and it at the end of that period no disposition
should bare been- manifested- to takellise course he recom-
mended, at whatever risk to his own property or to the pro- •
perty and' lives of others, he should feel it to be his duty to
oppose the longer ex.istence of them until a full and fair con-
sideration of the 'state of Ireland' should be entered upon.—
(Hear, hear !)

The Earl- of LIVgIIPOOL rove to reply. In consequence
of what had just fallen front the Noble Marquess and other
Noble Lords. it woold be necessary for him to trouble their
Lordships with a few observations beyond the limits td which
be had intended to confine himself. It was made a matter of
objection and comtilaint that these measuees were trot ae.
companled by :a distinct recommendation- of their use by
the Noble Masqusss, in whims there appeared to be a dispo-
sition on at hands to place retiattce, and to heap cor,s-
- Now he (Lord Liverpool) had known that Noble
individual as lung and as intimafely as• most men,- and no
on! could have a more deeply impressed cnsrs•ictiou of the
eminent qualities of his mind than he had. But be must say,
that if the Noble Marquis bad considered himself qua Wed ro
send home -a dispatch; treating of the various causes of the
sod detail of these outragely and recto 4 mending spv‘i-

• fie measures fur their stippression, from the little oppottonitf
of experience and examioation which his residence in Ireland,
since the Ist of January, could have afforded him ; in tb3.t
case, he must say, that the high estimation in which he had
previously held the talents of that Nobleman, would have
been diminished in a very considerable degree. A Noble
Lord had complained that there were not sufficient forces ill
Ireland, and that a large body of military might put down the
disterhanees. What! stop a rebellion by force, where forge
could riot he opposed to force ? It was well known that the
depredations were committed in such a mariner, in tine night
' time, and by numerous small parties scattered in all &ere'
titres over the whole country for iniiiitiretis of miles, thet
it was quite impossible fur am military force ins act against
them with effect. The only law, therefore, which could reach
the offenders in its operation, must be one whictl would emu'
pet them to abstain from these nightly ineetingS, by confinief
them is their houses at the period now resorted to for
their dreadfill purposes of disorder. In the next placer it
was urged against the measure toefoie the tlonse, that
the peasantry would be subjected tiy it Jo the injustice
which might arise from the local relations subsisting be'..
o"',
tween them and the Alagistrates• to whom the extra (t
%4011 id be entrusted. But those who made the olricc'
tion seemed to forget the provision for the presence of
Barrister and Kiegis Serjeatit. It could riot be supposc-
that local prejudices could exist in the .minds of those Ali,'"
tionaries, and the people were therefore certain to receive,
impartial justice' at their hands. Wbh regard to what
fallen from the Noble Marquis upon tire maleadministratiou
of justice by the Magistracy of Ireland, be must confess thatlie was somewhat surprised at the nature of the evidence
which. had beet: brought for ward. If aJtidge knew suet'
facts to have been in existence, was it not hi. duty to bri"
the offender to justice ? He knew not wino the Judge was--"
(The Marquis of Lansdowne said " Judge Fletcher,“) I'l'3
it. was a circumstance altogether of a very curious natirre'•
tiow a beneficial lease was to hare heel) voided by trails'
porting a tuna to Botany /lay, was to him art inexplicabl:ir
proposition.. It appeared to hint tin he'the very surest ot
ways to create a difficulty of proof with regard to tire Ulan.'
In short, it lie might be allowed so to express himself, it ar
oared to he the mest Irish way in the leered of accornplii.hits4
the object attributed to the Magistrate. He was quite c""
Hein t hat any shorter duration being given to the Bill* bc,
fore the !louse, would entirely ta' e away their efficacy. 't
was not only to the immediate suppression of the rebe boa'
that, he looked,- but to the prospective effect which thes''
measures f 110111 d produce ; and he was thoroughly convinc4'
that even if. as the Noble Lord's promised amendment P`l7
posed, the ineastrees, in their limited existence to the t sth "
Arlaireh, instead of the lit of August, should be snificient for
putting it down, yet that the good effect which tin-in louger,
continuance would have in bringing the country into a state e",
quiet !tabus being destroyed, they would lose more t ban hallo'
the benefits which he expected from them. Tire Noble Mel-
quis opposite had attributed much to the differences which es'
fisted between the two classes of the inhabitants ot Ireland'
But be could not view the present calamities as arising so :norIn
from any feelings of hatred between the governing and ill
governed parties, as from the general state of society and sg.
uteri's dispositions. Society must be enlightened; and melt
dispositions must grow better.
,Legislation iii itself could 11"-T,
accomplish t his,alt hough it might assist it ; and whatever :Digt,'
be the causes er the magnitude of the evils which atiLeted
laird, be would riot shrink from their investigation, and fr",l3.
endeavouring toremedy m Upon the or to mitigate the.. Upo the SW)
jest of the Catholic Qaestion, he had been storerised go hear
made a matter of charge upon the other side, thin tire exi•titt,';'
Government was disunited regald to its merits. He svgs
perfectlyastorrished at the Trarter from whence this oriebeate.••
Was it not well known, that in the year 1807, when
called upon the Party to which the Noble Lords opacto"-
belonged, to fOrm an Administiation, they found it ire
possible. to make rip one, which should be noaninnois "P,;
on that important question. And did lie meritiou this
their reproach or to their blame? Far 'front it. Ott the
contrary, be thought that nothing could he inure fatal tin IP
country at this period in particular than a :Ministry compew.,
of men who stood pledged to carry the Catholic Ernattere3,
m
. tion. It could only give a coearatively trifling satisfaert°,
to one party, while it provoked and irritated the
other, wh'i'r
t
was the most powerful. For himself lie had. only to say this,
he should be ready at all tittles, as he ever had been, to n'ef•
this qiustion according to the hpnest conviciiinn. ot Iris Grind
and if ever he could be brought to believe, that, without de
triment to tine welfare of the country,. be might safely•e''''!":
don the views which lie had hitherto taken, and afford in'
creased comfort to one part of his !Majesty's subjects, stir;',,
out danger to the other part, be would do it without Pr'''.
and without repugnance. Whilst addressing their Liirdsittil`i
he might as well say what he intended upon the sobieet v
the Suspensioa of the Habeas Corpus Act. He could (,psi
assure their Lordships, that. this as well as the other meante_.re
met the full Concurrence of the Marquis Wellesley.
Suspension of the Habeas Corplis Act wi,uld, be was-e.on,
fident, product air especial good which no other ineestire
could possibly effect ; there were persons, tine prince nto!e"
of all the dreadful events which now called fur the into-Yew
' tion of Parliament, whir were unexposed tut:l.2ir clanger,' r':'
asmuch as they worked behind the curtain, hy instigating tn:
people to acts of criminality, in Mitch they themselves
not partakers. These could °n'•- be reached by the Bit,
qtrestione and he was spite
require no other motive for its adopt ion.-
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE explained,
• The Bill was then ;earl a second time, and the House re-
solved itself into a Committee.
Lord
KINn6" Itils °:;eld11-1:yn
expire on the 15 instead of tine tst of Aing'rst treat,
The grounds upon which tire Noble Lord advanced were,
opinion' that that time wottld be satqicient to repress the
t urbances, arid that if a furthet coutinteanee of the Bill ghee e
be found necessary, they ihettld trot then have arrived at tH
period when- the business- of Parliament was transartid i"
hurried and.eareless manner'.
After a few words in explanation between Lord HotteN"
and the Duke of Iluenixesitevt, their Lordships divided upon
the amendment.

Contents . • • • IS'
Non-contents . , 59
Majority .
When the doors opened,
Laid HOLLAND was speaking against the Habeas Cull'
Suspension Act. He' opposed it certainly witi,t,s, firmne,-.
than the other Bill, because he did nut think it likely to br SV
flinch abused.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH stspported.t he Bill. It •liasl bee::
said that the centre of the reb•ellion trait not bee., diicovere'
He believed the eentie of the rebellion' to Consist in tinFJ-
nislied outrage. Let them punish outrage, and the centre ‘",
rein Ilion would he destroyed.
The Bill went through the same stages as the first. and Wit)
were, ordered for a third reading on 111.0n6ay.,
•
Adjourned :If ELEVEN o'CLocu.