The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-31 00:00:00

had shown a disposition to give up their newspapers and poli
tical publications, and to accede to th 4 desires of Parliament,
he hoped the Hon. Siernhef foe Dublin would permit the
money to be voted, which he assurztl the House was annually
applied to the purposes of science and the Itgitimate objects
of 111*1 society. He would not now rip up old tyres, and
thoug !! the relay ehould he permitted to receive their grant
without difficulty.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that t'll6 Pori Dublin S,:ciety
was perhaps right in blackballing himself, but n& complained
exceedingly of their excluding so peaceable and excellent a
character as the Rev. Dr. Murray. It was a question whether
such a society should receive any public money at all.
Mr. W. SMITH O'BRIEN and Mr. WYSE advocated the
grant in consequence of the society's partial compliance with
the expressed wishes of the Committee.—Agreed to.
7001. to defray the expenses of the Commissioners of che-
ritable bequests and donations.—Agreed to.
1,5001 to defray the Royal Belfast Aeadem'cal Inttitutir,n.
—Agreed to.
13,839/. to defray the expense of several put lie
an i repairs of public works in Ireland. —Agreed to.
22,339/. for the Chief and Under Secretaries' residence in
Dublin, and expenses of the Privy Cowell in Ireland.
Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that he would next
Session move that this vote should be reduced by the sum
of 1,5001
Lord MORPETH thanked the Gallant Colonel for the
courtesy of his year's notice.—Agreed to.
12,3941. for defraying the expenses of offices in the House-
hold of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, formerly charged on
the Civil List.—Agreed to.
3,500/. to defray the expenses of civil services in 'reified.—
Ag,reed to.
4,150/. to defray the expense of publishing pi oclan atims .n
Ireland Agreed to.
31,719/ for the expense of non-conforming and se xidirg
ministers in Ireland.—Agreed to.
66,7001. to defray the charges of criminal proututions 'n
Ireland.
Mr. HUTT asked for some details of the api lie ition of .o
large a sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the account having come in very recently, and after the
yearly accounts had been made up, they had not had time to
ascertain the particulars.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the only pa-feulari that
could be stated would be the items of the attornry's bill—
rather voluminous.—( Laughter.)
Agreed to.
31,357/. of public offices in Ireland.
Mr. WARBURTON and Mr. HUTT complained that
in this item also they were furnished with no particulars.—
Agreed to.
3,206/. to defray the expense of the Commissioners of the
Board of Public Works in Ireland.
Sir C. STYLES complained that two counties in Ireland
( Galway and Clare) were particularly favoured in the
distribution of the money placed at the disposal of these
Commissioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
tended that the House might rest secure in the discretion and
integrity of Colonel Burgoyne. till the accounts were regularly
furnished.
Agreed to.
7,0001. to defray the expense of the Boundary Survey in
Ireland.—Agreed to.
12,700/. for the Commission to inquire into the best lines of
Railway for Ireland.
An HoN. MEMBER complained of the expense of the copper-
plates in this survey.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eulogized
the Commission as being calculated to save Ireland from the
losses to which she was liable in such speculations by entering
on them under mistakes and miscalculations similar to those
which occurred in England.
Mr. O'CONNELL took a very different view of that Com-
mission, and looked on its labours as having done incalculable
mischief to Ireland.
Lord CLEMENTS regretted very much the result of the
Commission. In his opinion the result of the calculations the
Commissioners had gone into would be to retard the prosecu-
tion of Railroads in Ireland for twenty years.
Mr. LUCAS thought that the interposition of the Com-
mission was most fortunate. With respect to the profit ex-
pected he understood that the Report promised a profit of four
and a half or five per cent.
After a few words from Mr. Wyse, Mr. J. O'Connell, Mr.
Shaw, and Lord Howick, the grant was agreed to.
The nert item was 60,0001. for Civil contingencies.
63,030/. legal expences of Scotch Universities.—Agreed to.
101,2061. 3s. 4d. for the charges of the Commissariat De-
partment.—Agreed to.
50,054/. 6s. Bd. for the half-pay of the Commissariat De-
partment.—Agreed to.
The next item was 500,000/. for the different expences be-
yond the ordinary grants for 1837, 1838, and 1839, for army
and ordnance services, occasioned by the insurrection in Lower
Canada.
Mr. WARBURTON said that, as a Nobleman had gone
out to tranquillise the country, he should not consider himself
justified in raising a discussion on the present occasion. But
looking at the enormous sums that colony cost us, and the
loss we suffered by forcing a timber trade with her, he thought
that if this country would take the matter into serious consi-
deration we would come to the conclusion that an early and
peaceable separation would be the wisest course for both
countries.
Sir E. SUGDEN rose for the purpose of drawing the at-
tention of the House to the state of Canada with reference to
the Special Council. The point to which he wished to draw
the Noble Lord's attention was, whether the Special Council
had been appointed according to the Act of Parliament? The
Act empowered the Governor to appoint Councillors,
without specifying the number, but required the pre-
sence of at least five to make their acts valid. The
Governor had, however, limited his appointments to
five, although the inference, from the Act of Par-
liament making five the lowest number, was that a greater
number was contemplated. Of the number appointed, one
was a gallant officer holding a command in Upper Canada,
and who, of course, could not be at his post at the Council. If
this state of things were not remedied, he might feel himself
bound to raise the question hereafter. The present Governor
on his arrival had dismissed the Executive Council he found
there, on the plea that he intended to hold himself responsible
for all future acts, and immediately appointed a Council of
five of his own immediate staff. The conduct of Sir John
Colborne had been widely different. He appointed a:Council of
twenty-one inhabitants of LoWer Canada, eleven of whom
were French Canadians. What was the consequence? That
their acts had all the sanction of a Parliament.—( Hear, hear.)
The conduct of that Council had been so satisfactory, that Sir
John Colborne not only thanked its members for their conduct
but wrote a letter to Lord Glenelg highly approving of
the Council. The first act of Lord Durham, en his arrival,
was to dissolve this Council and appoint his special Council of
five—all members of his own personal staff.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Sir E. Sugden) begged to press these matters on the
attention of the Noble Lord. He did not wish to weaken the
authority of Lord Durham, by expressing disapproval of his
conduct, but, as one of the persons who had given him his
present extraordinary powers, and agreed to the suspension
of the Canadian Constitution, he felt bound to keep a vigilant
eye over his proceedings. He thought it was of the deepest
importance to know not only that the appointment of the
Council, as to numbers, was strictly legal, but also as to the
powers vested in it by the Governor, as its legality might
afterwards be arraigned by parties who became subject to its
decisions. He did not think it necessary at present to origi-
nate any motion, but he begged to press the subject on le
attention of the Government.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would reserve for another op-
portunity the consideration of Lord Durham's government of
Canada, though ho must admit that any legal opinion offered
by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was
well worthy of the most serious consideration. The opinion
which the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ex-
pressed was not supported by any other Hon. Member. The
words of the Act with respect to the Council were, that no
less than five should he present. With respect to the larger
question which had been mooted, he ( Lord John Russell)
deemed it a matter of the utmost importance that public
opinion in Canada should be taken into account. Lord Dur-
ham found that the two parties in Canada looked with suspi-
cion upon each other, and he had done right in selecting for
his Council persons who could not be supposed to have a
leaning one way or the other. The primary object of Lord
Durham was to preserve the colony to the mother country and
the next was to lay the foundation of a harmonious feeling.
The view then to be taken of the appointment to the Council
of persons not Canadians was as to the manner in which such
appointments were considered by the inhabitants of the colony
generally. All the letters and accounts from Canada stated
that the appointments were looked upon both with favour and
confidence.—( Hear, hear.) Ile ( Lord J. Russell) would
not say more upon the subject, as he did not deem it necessary
in the present state of circumstances to explain and justify
every particular step which Lord Durham might think it ne-
cessary to take for preserving the Canadian provinces to the
British Crown.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir E. SUGDEN would be very unwilling to throw any
impediment in the way of Lord Durham's government of the
Canadas, but he wished merely to put Ministers in possession
of a doubt which he entertained with respect to the legality of
that Noble Lord's proceedings as regarded the Council. It
appeared to him that there were great doubts whether the acts
of Lord Durham's government would be valid, unless there
were mote than five councillors present.
After a few words of further explanation between Lord J.
RUSSELL and Sir E. SUGDEN,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he did not partici-
pate in the doubts expressed by his Right Hon. and Learned
Friend. He believed the acts would be perfectly valid in law
if five councillors were present. The second section of the
Act pointed out the mode of appointing the Council, and the
next clause said that five councillors at least should be pre-
sent to render the acts valid —( Hear, hear.) When five
were present the condition expressed in the Act was fully com-
plied with. —( Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL did not regret the expense of :he half-
million to which the country was put, as it was but a fair re-
turn for the injury inflicted upon Canada by taking away
from the Representative Assembly the cot-grout which it pos-
sessed over the revenues of the Colony. The Canadians were
right in resisting the attempt to take the controul of their own
revenues from them; but they were wrong in departing from
constitutional resistance, and in violating the law by resorting
to rebellion and blood. In doing this the Canadians deserved
the despotism which had been imposed upon them—fur the
government of Lord Durham was a despotism. It was well,
however, to find that Lord Durham, whose character was
public property, had been most successful in his government:,
as was shown both by public and private accounts He hoped
that the conduct of the Ncbic Lord in Canada would be 41'