The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-02 00:00:00

CHURCH OF ENGLAND.

Mr. D. W. H ARVEY rose to present a petition from
an individual which was in every way entitled to the consi-
deration of the House, inasmuch as it was the petition of a
working clergyman who was very ill paid, and laboured
hard. It was the petition of the Rev. Charles Collier,
vicar of Humbleton in the county of Rutland, and the state-
ment of the petition peculiarly merited the attention of the
House at a time when they heard so much of the doc-
trine of appropriation, and when there was so much
laudable solicitude evinced that the revenues of the Church
should be appropriated to their original purpose. The pe-
titioner stated that in 1822 he was inducted to the living, that
it was of the annual value of 1501., and that the value of the
tithes originally derived for religious purposes exceeded the
sum of 2,0001., which by one of those contrivances, which in
former times characterised the discretion of our ancestors,
and which was somewhat rising again in the clauses of the
Irish Tithe Bill, which proposes to appropriate 30/. per
cent. of the property of the Church—gave the tithes of this
parish to temporal purposes—tithes which were ap-
plicable in former times to the spiritual wants of the
people—which realized a considerable sum, and produced
2,000/. Of this sum this individual received about 1501.
The petitioner states that 3801. was advanced for the
express purposes of suiting the convenience and consulting
the taste of his predecessor, and that it was expended
in erecting stables adapted for a gentleman who in-
dulged in fox-hunting, but which were wholly unnecessary
for a person who had his duties to perform.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") This 3801. was charged upon the living
and the petitioner was called upon to pay the interest an-
nually, and threatened with legal proceedings in default of
payment. In what way, he would ask, was this gentleman
to receive relief ? Was there any party in that House to
whom this gentleman could appeal ? Would that House
call the Commissioners of Queen Anne's bounty to account,
and compel them to do justice in administering the funds
committed to their charge ? 30,0001. were allowed to re-
main in the hands of the treasurer ; the treasurer became
an insolvent, and only 8,0001. recovered from the •sure-
ties. The trustees afterwards agreed to make up the
difference, but refused to pay the interest. The pe-
titioner called upon the House to protect him from
paying a sum of money which had been misapplied to cer-
tain purposes, and in the way suggested by the petition.
—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
DUTY ON NEWSPAPERS.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM presented a petition from
Sheffield, praying for the entire abolition of the Duty on
Newspapers.
EMANCIPATION OF THE JEWS.

The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from
Sheffield, praying for the Emancipation of his Majesty's
Jewish subjects.
BLACKFRIARS BRIDGE.

Mr. BA.RCL AY brought up a report from the Com-
mittee on Blackfriars Bridge. The Hon. Gentleman also
presented a petition relating to Joint Stock Companies.
Mr. R. STEWART brought up the Report of the
Committee on the Dover Harbour Bill.
Lord ACHESON presented several petitions from
Down, in favour of the Amendments to be moved by the
Hon. Member for Dundalk to the Irish Tithe Bill.
Mr. R. STEWART brought up the Report of the
Committee on Salaries and Expenses on the Church of
Ireland Bill.
Mr. FINN begged to ask the Noble Lord (Morpeth)
whether any instructions had been given by the Irish Go-
vernment to suppress or conceal any of the outrages which
were committed there, or whether the returns were in any
way falsified?
Colonel PERCEVAL hoped the Noble Lord would
state whether the information which he had received was
true, viz., that the Sub-Inspectors and Inspectors of Police
in Ireland were ordered to send in their reports of out-
rages marked " private and confidential," and that then the
returns were made up to suit the views of the Government.
His object was that the returns should not be laid on the
table, unless they were bona fide, and showed the real
state of outrages in Ireland.

Lord MORPETH said, as far as his knowledge went,
there was not the slightest tinge of truth in the information
of the Hon. and Gallant Memer.—(Cheers.)
Colonel PERCEVAL—Are no outrages suppressed?
Lord MORPETH—Most assuredly not.—(Cheers.)
The NOBLE LORD then moved the Order of the Day,
for the House going into Committee on the Irish Church

Bill.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD then presented several petitions,
praying for the total abolition of The Honour-
able Member then rose to move the total extinc-
tion of tithes in Ireland, as prayed for by the peti-
tions he had just now presented, as well as upon many
former occasions, and he hoped the House would indulge
him with their attention while he supported his positiot.'
with a few plain statements and facts. The only claim he
could put forward for such indulgence was, that he brought
forward his motion from an honest conviction that he was
only performing his duty to his constituents. His motion
was not to relieve the Catholic of a fractional part of this
burden ; but whether they should he called upon to paY
that charge which characterized them as slaves ?—(Hear.)
It was a question whether man should be accountable to.
his Maker for his religious principles, or whether be should
forego those principles under the dictation of the State ?--
(Cheers.) When it was considered how the Protestant
Church of Ireland became possessed of tithes, it would be
found that the assumption of tithes of the Irish Church
was nearly connected with the most atrocious of principles, a
principle of persecution which at different periods of the world
had been put in execution against Christians, and afterwards
against Protestants. He alluded to the Acts passed
in the reigns of James the First and Queen Elizabeth.
The State had not the power to compel those who
differed from the religion of the State to pay towards
that religion ; but he would contend that, unless
tithes were appropriated to the purposes for which they
were originally intended, the State was not justified in
levying those tithes. Then it had been said that estates
lately purchased were purchased with the knowledge ,of
the infliction of tithes and of the appropriation of tithes
but he insisted that though a man might be under the
necessity of purchssing property with a certain degree
of evil attached to it, yet he was not to be•
precluded from remedying that evil.—(Hear, hear.) Any
man who purchased an estate was entitled to benefit him-
self by that purchase in the best way he could. Again, it
had been said that Tithes were not paid by Irish tenants,
but by the landlords. He wished to combat that prin-
ciple also.—(Hear, hear.) He wished it to be
recollected that by the law of Ireland pasture lands
were not liable for Tithes, that a great portion of the
lands of Ireland were rented by the tenants at a value
that was put upon them as pasture lands, and that
the tenants were then induced, from the high price of
corn, to cultivate those lands. Who, then, was it that
ought to pay the tithes, the landlord or the tenant ?
A great part of the land was in an unimpoverished and
unimpaired state a few years ago. No doubt there had
been since then extraordinary improvement on the produc-
tive qualities of the land within the last 20 or 30 years ;
but he asked when the amount of tithes was thus raised

from these improvements, did not the tenant pay them ?
(Hear, hear.) Another position was this, that admitting
that the landlord did originally set the land under an allow-
ance for tithes, it was subsequently underset to the peo-
ple, and would any man contend that an allowance had been
made to these unfortunate undertakers ? It appeared, then,.
the landlord paid a small portion of the tithes, and that the.
great portion was paid by the population of the country.—
(Hear, hear.) He should shortly allude to the Bill pro-
posed by his Majesty's Government. One proposition of
the Bill was to sink a portion of the tithes :another
proposition was to appropriate another portion of the
tithes in a different manner ; and a third proposition was
to force the tithes to be paid by the landlord. He
insisted that this payment was merely nominal, as the Bill
gave full right and title to the landlord, when he paid
tithes, to enforce repayment in the same manner as rent
was collected. So that, although tithes might be nominally
imposed by the landlord, he asserted that they were actually
paid by the people. One of the great evils that arose from
the propositions of this Bill was, that it combined together-
rent and tithes. By combining a tax that was unjust, with
a payment that was just, and for which the people received
value, they would be induced to make opposition to that,
as well as tithes, and a complete confusion of property
would be the consequence.—(Loud cries of " Hear.")
The effect of the Bill would be to put the landlords in the
position of proctors for the Clergy ; and if other gentlemen
desired to be placed in that position—if others conceived it
to be a position of honour, he did not.—( Hear, hear.) The
proposition might be exemplified this way—Suppose a mart
paid 10d. tithes. By the present composition 3d. would be
sunk—he would then pay 7d. From this sum one-seventh
was appropriated to purposes of education, and the re-
maining six-tenths was paid by the Catholics of L-e-
-land, for the use and support of the Established Church_
He would wish to ask, would that satisfy the people of

Ireland? He would refer the House to the numerous
petitions presented by himself and other Hon. Members,
and ask what was the demand of the petitioners ? Was it not

in almost every instance for the total extinction of the tithes
in name and in substance—for the principle that every
man should pay for his own Church ? These senti-
ments were embodied in the petitions in such distinct
terms as not to be mistaken. He would not trouble,
the House with referring at length to these petitions,.
but he would shortly state the prayer of one presented
from the Protestant parish of Harmany and Ballilinney, in
the county of Down, which stated that nothing short
of a complete abolition of tithes, would secure
tlie peace of the people—(Hear, hear)—restore the
clergymen of the Established Church to the station in so-
ciety they should occupy, and unite all classes of his Ma-
jesty's subjects in one common bond of brotherly affection.
Such were the sentiments of the Protestants of that
parish—(Hear, hear, hear}—and he would now refer
to a petition from the Rev. W. Handcock, rector of
Drumcar, a clergyman of the Established Church, who
stated, that so long as tithes were 'levied in Ireland it
would have the effect of continuing agitation, perpe-
tuating sectarian strife, renewing scenes of slaughter, and
extending the system of lawless terror. These were the
sentiments of a clergyman of the Established Church, and
he thought they were entitled to some weight.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He would now refer to the
words of an eminent character, a Member of a for-
mer Parliament, which expressed the feelings of the people
of Ireland. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read
the passage, the substance of which was, that the
amount of the tithes was not the real grievance, but •
the conscientious feeling which prevented Dissenters
from the Established Church contributing to its support.
He would now refer to an authority far :greater than his
own, and one which, from the station the individual held,
must have its due weight ; he alluded to a letter which he
had received two years ago from the Hon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny. The Hon. Member then proceeded
to read the letter of Mr. O'Connell, which stated his opi-
nion, that so long as tithes existed, emancipation was but
a mockery.—(Hear, from the Opposition, re-iterated by
Mr. O'C.) He would now proceed to explain the resolutions
which it was his intention to propose. The resolutions
were as follows :
" 1. That it is expedient that Tithes and all Compositions
for Tithes in Ireland should cease, and be for ever extin-
guished ; compensation being first made for all vested inte-
rests, whether lay or ecclesiastical ; and that it is also expe-
dient that measures should be adopted to render the revenue
of the Church Lands more productive, and more available for
the support of the working Clergy of the Establishment ; and
that all persons not in communion with the Established Church
of Ireland should be relieved from all assessment for its sup.
port.
" 2. That it is expedient that the monies necessary for the
aforesaid compensation should be advanced out of the public
revenue, and afterwards repaid by instalments from the pro.
cecds of a tax to be imposed on profit rents, such tax to cease
and determine as soon as the said debt shall be discharged."
He conceived that the tenants had most beneficial terms
offered to them on which to purchase the fee under the Act
of the 2d and 3d of William IV., and, in his opinion, an
Act ought to be passed to render it compulsory on the tenants
to purchase the fee ; or that if they did not, they should
be deprived of their property. He should also propose
n
that a change should take place with respect to the
archbishops and bishops after the decease of the present
possessors. With respect to the Archbishop he should pro-
pose that a sum not exceeding 2,000/. a year should be al.
lowed, and for the Bishops a sum not exceeding 1,000/. a-year
the surplus to be obtained by the foregoing resolution to he:
applied in aid of the stipends of the working clergy of the
Established Church.—(Loud Cheers.) By a praersiei
mentary return in 1833 the number of acres of Bishop's
lands were 669,247. In this return the Bishopric
of Raphoe was not included. It was well known that some
of the best lands in Ireland were held of the Ch, and
if they were valued at one pound an acre, it won hurc
ld pro-
duce 669,2471. a-year. The Hon. Member then went into a
comparison of the value of Church property as it now stood,
and what would be its value deducting the reserved rents.
He would appeal to the representatives of Ireland upon
this question. He would refer to the statements and de.
clarations that had been made on various Occasions,
by gentlemen who represented the liberal party of Ireland.
He called upon them to declare to the House distinctly
what it was the people of Ireland wished to have, and
what it was that they would be satisfied with.—(Hear.)
They had frequently stated that the people of Ireland would
not be satisfied with any thing short of the total extinction
of tithes, and how, he would ask, could they accept the Bill
that had been offered to them by his'Majesty's Government ?
Would the people of Ireland agree to sacrifice the principle
upon which they demanded religious liberty, freedom of
conscience, and a right to worship their God as they
thought fit?
Lord MORPETH, after the full discussion and decided