The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-13 00:00:00

On the vote of 36 1,8351. for defraying the expense./
• pity allewaeces of the o.duanee and E4l.
in ems deleirtmeuts,
Mr. Ills RTES said that the house should be tic;
veinted with the evidence token, and see the report 0'
the Cot: memo before egret log to this vote.
Mr. COBDEN hoped the Noble Lord would °°l
persist in recite; it this voee for the Ord, ante
tna..es. as the le le rt of the Committee would be it] W
hands of Aiembers by Saturday next. Tee EU°.
should hove some knowleege of the recommeedatico,
of the Committee before toeing called upon to vote 0'
neittey. He should oppose going into Committee 011
these estiott.,S.
Leret J. RUSSELL said the Nottle Cbairmnn of the
Ciennittee had teed him that the report wined be tel
before this day, and, therefore, he lied fixed these Ott;
mites for today. With regard to the propositionebd°'
the Corenettlee, the Government must have time to ,
able to say whether the prop 'salons of the Co
should be recut:, mended for adeption or not. IL tvool,
atteneed with great ineoliventeeee further to postpo°,
these estimates. The Government must be respoesiele
ler treoe votes, and they ought to have time for full 0°
siderat.ent.
Sir J. GR AHA \I seCd that the report of the COniti
mi eve wee pre: eared that Cie to.d the report ae
evidence would be printed, and in the heeds 0. Ate/label
on Si urday ; but he thought that, considering thb:
numerous top cs that. must arise for de,cuesion upon t
reeding et the report, the House and the Government
shied(' have the fullest opportunity for consideratilli
and he therefote thoueht, up.el the whole, that it vio°,,
br better to aliew the Gov, rument to proceed with the
e°
their own teapot eibility. ultnittel
Mr. U tIE was su prised at the conclusion rib's, ,
his R ght Hon. Friend had come to. The alb gfinfot
that the Government were igni rant was error.eotoi!
the 11,n. teed Geleint Member for South Staff.rdehlr,
(Colonel An-o+,) head been present, and no doubt ;r,10 4
fully informed ..f all that had taken place. He (
Hume) had not consi t. red the report and evidence, 6e
how s -euld he be d upon to vote upon this her' r
rent subject in the dark? Was it decent, after 65',:4
months spent in this inquiry, that it rho he pas 0
by without notice? He mov.d that the Chairman reP°
progress, and task leave to sit again.
Mr. FOX MA ULE said, that • n Tuesday each 31
her of the Committee wag in possession of the revo
✓iper. If the se rerimee s e ere to he di-cus-ed on 2.l°r
dey on that report, it was d .log neither justice tn.,o
;
House or to the Goveutwent, as they could not pitoll
have time between Saturday and Monday to cons,*
the. viduirdeeus evidence taken by the Committee. ;
Mr. IiUME seid, tee prop,sitien of the GovernMett
was, in ince to vote the money first and take the disco
°'
• afterwards. It weted be tar be; ter to drop the MP'
altogether. and vote the whole Bum d,//landed in a lull,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER °,lO
serve I that the qeestien really at issue was, whether
el
poeipenement would put the House. in possession 01 sit
information or not. —(Hear, hear.) He admitted th°;,,
Was desirable should be in possession of such iet,lo
(nation, but they could not have both the report and
evidence upon which it was founded for very many dab
to come, and lo king at the late period of the session
e,
put it to the House whether it would not be better'"
take the estimates now before the House into conside;
time and to give the Government full time for the Coildo
deration of the Cemmittee during the recess, in nr
that next session they might be prepared to propose '4O
estimates as in their judgment were necessary, and co
1,
be undertaken on the responsibility of a . Governive.tio,
It was clear that by merely postponing the discusll4
until Monday next they would !tot be any more prepsTo
to discuss the question of prospective reductions th
they were at. the present, memeet.
Mr. IIEHRIES staid there was one important quot-i oe°
1
occurred to him—were they to abandon alt hoPe,/
effecting any reductions during the present year
(He ate hear.) Surely the Government, with its k°°„l/1
ledge of what took place before the Committee, I°°„",,
not say that they were unprepared to make some rear4o
tions at least. It' that was tne case, then ha felt t‘Pei
the grounds for postponement became stronger. If tit
had the recommendations of the Committee in rho
hands the Heusi, might perhaps save some money t°
it
public before next session, and if they could do o°oi,
would no doubt give satisfaction. If, on the other
he was told that it was quite hopeless to expect ant'
duction, he would ask why the Committee was ever%
pointed?—(Hear, hear.) Why they did not votei:t
estimates at the commencement, ie-tead of postpow''
theta to the. end of the st.ssion?—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL replied to the question, w-etbet
no hope o. reductions could he held out during the td
sent year? Certainly not. When the Government 0
seen and considered this report they might be ablf-de
propose some immediate reductions. But he was
prised that the Right Hon. Gentleman, with his kneof
1. dge of the public business, should suppose that aLe
0
port, which recommended the reduction of 1,300"./.
the cost of a public department, could be adopted or ire,
missed by the Government, without the fullest cot;
'i
deration arid inquiry. To propose any redden recta:
would not be the proper course. At present be I(01
es
not hing whatever of one single reduction that had 113s1
proposed by the Committee, nor could he promise t
he would he prepared to make any on Monday. ~,„blo
Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH said the I"te
Lord stove,* he did not know of a single reduction Po
posed in the report. He would give him one. it o
,d,tr
proposed to stop the military. works at Bermuda, nor
thins, and the lonian Islands, and if the report wits of
fere the II use, founded as it was upon the evidence o
Sir George Grey, and other officials, he was satisfied l'l4
the, reasons tor that reduction were so irresistible that.
would be eu•tained by th • Hems e 'ltes
Sir JA -ES GRAHAM reminded the Conlin! ,s
that the House had already voted the number of ritie
which in the majority- of cases governed the force ill
quired to be kept up by the Ordnance. There were
two items—stores and new winks at home and in the yid
lorries—with which they could interfere; but it vies
no be prudent to de that witheut full inuir.
Hot n. Baronet (Sir William Moleeworth) hid re erred yrred to,,
three places where the Committee recommended tilers
pension of military works. The saving estimated
30,0001. Well, nothing could be easier than when :;es,
came to that vote to move the reduction, and the
oe
&-cretary to the Ordnance. as a member of the Cosa
whites, weed,' either be able to agree to, or to shoo' re
sons aga'nst it.—(Hear, hear.) There were otherito
&miens be should feel inclined to propose.—(Hest
bear)—but he did not think they should urge the ,en
rernment to make reductions before they bad tittle,
consider them.
Mr. COBDEN really scarcely understood the 4"
v tebb:
Hon. Baronet. He deprecated rashness, and ye
,/
called upon the House to vote some millions of We'd
without ireotmetion which would be in the esnlsep,
Memb:rs in emu days.--(Hear, hear.) The Right Po
Baronet eld them there were 10,000 questions je bet
Blue Boek, but he ventured to say that not one Metileol b
would read these 10,000 questions, and many would e
open it. But the report of the Committee was an y
suennary of these questioner, for which they were desk
indebted to the Noble Chairman—(flear)—and ono
died the principal evidence on which the r•-port bed
rounded; and if they proceeded, now that report ih
been presented, to vote money without reference t°
he could only say that it would tell trumpet toeg.eed,
the country that which it already strongly suSpeebo
I hat the House, instead of being the guardian of '4,
public purse, was merely a screen for Ministerial e'
travagance —(Cheers.)
Celenel ANSON. after referring to some circeli
stanc's which had transpired in the Committee, sate Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) seemed to use ()
,e,
language out of the House and another in the Hp'
He implored the House to proceed with the estiteatel;l
He was there ready to answer any objections that rnigo
be made to the estimates now before them, and be 10%
sure the Government would lose no time in consider.
the recommendetiena of the Committee. e°
Mr. COBDEN complained as to the alleged differe4,
of language that the circumstances had altered.
report had been finished sooner than they expected, srt
that changed the position entirely. Now that reP_n°
ready,was
inc vr,h,
nhsei
ir,leeptehaatetd
they
yt
could
das
not
tst
waitm a
tillry elotioitibiel;
Mr. SPOONER expressed his determination, if 'to
Hon. Member for Montrose divided the Committee, ef
support him. Ho could not at all understand why, rit,gb-e
waiting all the session for this report, and delaying "tee
estimates for it, they should now be called upon to rot
Vern, when the re port was at last presented, with';
having time to read it. Above all, he was surprised re,
hear that the Government were ignorant of its iti
commendations, because he supposed its members 10d1'0,
have communicated with the Cabinet as to its P',
ceedings.
b°
Mr. F. MAULE assured the Hon, Member that
had not felt himself at liberty as a member of the
mittee to communicate to the Cabinet the proceeding°
that Committee.
Mr. SPOONER replied that the business of Goect°l
tnent might be carried on in a way totally different frci4,
every other, but it' a committee was appointed by Peto,
ners to investigate the state of their affairs in ordto°("d
lire, no doubt the partners would ask the member°
the committee what they were doing from time to tile,
r.)
and what was the state of particular accounts.— (Hee es
Colonel RAWDON deprecated any further drisy,
be
uncalled for. besides making that House take part of ';is
Exemeive Government, instead of confieing itself to '4
ro°
legitimate functions. He hoped the Hon. Gentle
would not persist in his motion.
boa
Mr. HILDYARD said that if this Committee
d
been appointed in hostility to the Government, be clef
have understood the arguments that bad been urged its
voting the estimates that night without waiting for
;vic
repore—(l lear, hear.) But, on the contrary. 1111/.0.
been appointed by the Goverment, be could not c's
prehend shy they watched its recommendations wit et
such jealousy. The Noble Lord said he was ignoreat
of its r commendations. The Hon. Member for re.,
03.
(Mr. F. Maule) said he had not felt at liberty to CO
municate them. Well, then, the Governm. nt was
ignorance of the report. Surely, then, the Noble
-0?ile
himself should not take the responsibility of propos'
these estimates while ignorant of' the report.— (Hen
r
Then, was it just to the House to ask them to vote ie
4
ignorance, or, on the other hand. to suppose that IPot
would run to the conclusion of the Committee wit
jAging for themselves? He:thought not. All he "t,
heard convinced him that the Hon. Member eheuld P(. 1
silt in his motion, to which be would give his cord_leei
support, because he did not think that the public retjr,
should be voted away in this inconsiderate mes°
merely to allow Members to get into the country a ,000
days sooner.—(Cheers )
Co. After a few words from Mr. PLUMPTRE, °P
Mr. W. BROWN suggested that they might C
with their estimates. and then the Members of the ("lot
mittee in their speeches could explain the reductions
had been recommended.—(oh.)
Mr DUNCAN could not agree to that proposal.e.tee,
the House was to take its opinion from the ConioiLtt•
it might is well adjourn at once, and leave the Cooll;f,
t tee to do all the work itself,. If ever there was Oh,
ragout la Amur of rho Dh9ritaiDg Qf Porlitalfa