The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-06 00:00:00

DENMARK AND PRUSSIA.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply to Lord
Brougham, said be had every reason to hope that
the hostilities which had occurred between Denmark
and Prussia, would terminate in an amicable manner,
and he assured the Noble Lord that this country was
most anxious, for the peace of the countries referred to,
and for the benefit of the commerce of the world, that
this settlement should take place at the earliest possible
moment.

LEASEHOLD TENURE OF LANDS (IRELAND)

BILL.

Lord CAMPBELL moved that the report on the
Leasehold Tenure of Lands (Ireland) Bill be received.
The Earl of LUCAN objected to the 8111, and moved
that it be recommitted to a Select Committee. If he did
not succeed in tbi:, he would move to exclude its appli.
cation to all leases with special covenants; and if he did
not succeed in this he would then object to the Bill ap-
plying to property in towns.
Lord CAMPBELL said that the Bill was brought in
on the 2d of April; it was not read a second time
until the 26th of April, and it was not committed until
the 25th of May. The report was to have come before
their Lordships last evening. This was a proof that the
Bill had not b ^en hurried through the House. His Noble
Friend the Lord Chancell9r bad paid great attention
to the Bill. He thought the Bill was all right, and ought
to be adopted, and if his Noble Friend was present he
would say the same thing, notwithstanding the Noble
Earl (Lord Lucan) stood up and moved that it should be
referred to a Select Committee. The Noble Earl com •
plained that the Bill was compulsory, but if it was not so
it would be useless. That was, in fact, the great merit
of the measure. The Bill had been very generally ap-
proved of, and he had himself received various applica-
tions from different quarters to press it forward. He
therefore called upon their Lordships to negative the
motion.

Lord MONTEAGLE said there was no similarity
between those tenures and copyhold estates. tie thought,
however, that a temporary measure would be attended
with great advantage. There was no iuconvenience
arising from these tenures. In fact, it was not a question
between landlord and tenant, but between landlord and
landlord; for the holder of a lease of lives, renewable for
ever, was a quasi landlord, and the rent re-
served to the original landlord was in the
character of an annuity overriding the land.
He did not think any pecuniary compensation
could satisfy the landlord for the inconvenience of waste
with regard to timber that would arise to him from a
lessee under this Bill. He would not vole for a motion
that would injure the measure, but he would suggest the
adoption of this motion to facilitate the progress of the
Bill in that House, and in another place.
Lord CAMPBELL said he could not agree to the sug-
gestion. There was ample indemnity provided against
any waste that might be attempted by the lessee.
The Earl of DEVON said that which ought to be the
foundation of the Bill hut be omitted, which was an

expla❑a'ion of the practical evils resulting from these
s. He had heard no zilch exp'a,nation. The po-
licy of the incasure was that it would facilitate an im-
provement of the land. This Bill proposed to substitute
a fixed sum for a periodical fine, upon payment of which
the landlord should transfer his property to the middle-
cna!; but he could not see what advantage such a change
could be to the occupying tenant, who was in fact the
cultivator of the land. He thought it would have been
better to have the Bill promissory rather than compul-
sory, as was proposed.

Lord REDESIMLE said, when the Bill was intro-
duced he did not wish to press an opposition to it; but
since that other information had been obtained, with re-
gard to the lands of the Irish Society, and the covenants
contained in their leases. By this Bill they proposed to
create a fee simple, Which might be destroyed under
these covenants. He could not see how that could work.
This was a material point, and ought to be discussed and
expl .ined, which could only be done by referring it to a
Select Committee. He thought the proposal a very
reasonable one, and that it would be better to postpone
the measure for another session.
The Earl of GLENGALL said there was a great deal
of property in Ireland which would be affected by the
Bill, and he thought it would be very desirable it should
be postponed to next session, that it might be more fully
considered.

The Earl of WICKLOW thought he never heard a
Bill which was more thoroughly discussed in that House
than the present measure. With regard to what had
been said about a Select Committee, he had heard not
• ne word on the subject, except against the principle of
the Bill. The case which was urged so strencously on a
former night against the Irish Society as a reason why
the Bill should be postponed, was now abandoned alto-
gether, and no case whatever was made out against it.
In as far as it went, he believed it would improve the
condition of the tenantry in Ireland, and therefore the
cultivation of the land, for which it should receive his
support.

The Earl of LUCAN was of opinion, notwithstanding
all that had been said, that the Bill had not been suffi-
ciently discussed by their Lordships; but in consequence
of the then state of the House, he would not press his
motion to a division. On the third reading, however, he
would move as an amendment that the Bill be made per-
missive instead of compulsory.
The report was then brought up, and on the motion of
Lord CAMPBELL, the third reading of the Bill was
fixed for Friday.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 5.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Mr. HUME (in continuation from our Fourth Edi-
tion) proceeded to say—Having shown the elective
franchise to be the right of the working classes, the
question came to be in what mode ought the suffrage to
be extended so as best to reach and be rendered availa-
ble to those classes. On this head many plans were
issued. Some thought population ought to be the basis
of the suffrage; others that property ought to be so.
Some, again, thought that education ought to be the
basis, while others were for household suffrage. He was
anxious to know how far a suffrage founded on popula-
tion.would infringe upon the rights of property, and he
found, from a table which had been carefully prepared
by gentlemen residing in Leeds and Manchester, that
were property taken as the basis of their representation,
England, Scotland, and Wales would return 553 Mem-
bers to Parliament, and that were population taken they
would return about the same number. To take popula-
tion as the basis, England would return 455 Members,
Scotland 76, and Wales 22, and to take property as the
basis, England would return 450 Members, Scotland 71,
and Wales 32.—(Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, the
same thing whether they took population or property as
the basis, but population being the easiest, he should 1)0
inclined to submit to it. He was aware that many Hon.
Gentlemen had considerable apprehensions as the
manner in which he intended to form electoral dis-
tricts, but he had no hesitation in saying that what he
intended to do would not be attended with the least con-
fusion. All he wanted to do was, better to apportion
those districts, to class different towns together, so that
they might join in returning a representative or repre-
sentatives between them. conformably to the population.
That had been already done to some extent in Scotland,
for the district he represented had five boroughs con-
nected with it. No difficulty would, therefore, be found
in doing the same with other places. He considered,
therefore, that there was no ground for doubt or appre-
heusion on that point, and at the proper time, were be
allowed to bring in a Bill on the subject, he would pro-
duce a scale in which these districts were minutely and
carefully arranged, and which, if adopted, would secure
the return of Members to that House in strict proportion
to the number of the population. He had beside him the
actual extent which in France and other countries such
extension had been made without any risk, but they bad
an example in Scotland of how the division of districts
had operated, and these details he would not go into.
Having, therefore, shown that it was necessary to ex-
tend the franchise, and that to insure the free exercise
of that franchise, the ballot was also necessary, he
thought the measure would be altogether incomplete
without an equelisation of electoral districts, and
for those reforms he appealed to the justice of the
House. He thought no one could deny the justice of so
reasonable a proposition. He might be asked, as the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government was asked
when he introduced a measure to repeal the navigation
laws—" Where are your petitions in favour of such a
measure ?" In answer the Noble Lord said, and truly
said, that it was the duty of the Minister to propose what
measures he thought proper for the good of the country,
whether there were petitions calling for them or not;
and although he would not exactly give the same answer
yet he would say, that while last year petitions innume-
rable had been pre,entcd to the Honse in favour of a
similar motion he then made, men had begun to see that
it was useless to petition a tribunal which paid no atten-
tion to them; tad, therefore, they had refrained from
petitioning un this ()cession. But he would impress upon
Government and the House the danger of allowing that
feeling to gain strength in the country, and looking to Par-
liament simply as a means by which good Govern-
ment could be secured the country, he thought
they were bound to do what they could to
improve that Parliament, and render it con-
sonant with the wishes and feelings of the country.
Did, then, that House at present faithfully represent the
county) ? He said, no. It might represent certain
classes and certain interests, but the country in general
it did not represent. Under the old system, previous to
the passing of the Reform Bid, that system might have
done, but now it would not. Could any man state, that
in the present state of things so many of their fellovv"
countr) men would long quietly remain excluded from
electoral privileges? Arai it would be wise in Govern-
nsent and that House to 3 ield at once and give these
men justice, lest the withholding of it might drive them
to despair. Ile thought the time had now come when
Government, if they could not go all the way, should at
all events show that they were anxious to go so far.
Let them show the people that they had an earnest de-
sire to give the people justice, and with that view be
begged to conclude by moving for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the national representation, by extending
the elective franchise so as to include all householders,
by enacting that votes shall be taken by ballot; that the
duration of Parliaments shall n.-. 1 excet d three years, On
that the apportionment of representatives be rendered
more equal to the population. The Hon. Member ro
sumed his seat amid considerable cheering.
Mr. H. BERKELEY said he begged to second the
motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose.
Ile was not aware what course Government meant to
take in reference to it, whether they would take that
disrespectful course which they took a few rights ago
in reference to his motion on the ballot—a course dis-
respectful to the con,tituencies which sent them to that
House, and disrespectful to the House itself. With
much deference to his Hon. Friend who had introduced
this motion, he considered that the question he brought
before the House the other night (the ballot) was the
most popular of those questions connected with the
reform movement, and that in consequence it was
proper it should be brought forward by itself, as, ,
carried, it would be the means of having those other
reforms, which he considered so necessary, carried out;
for it must be evident to all that so lenges intimidation
and corruption were mixed up with their system of re-
presentation, so long would the people be misrepre-
sented. 'The ballot had also more adherents in that
House than any other reform measure, for it might
be said that not fewer than 150 Members of that
House were its warm supporters. He still thought
therefore, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment might have met that question in a more re-
spectful manner than he had done. But whether or not
the Noble Lord would follow a similar course in th°
present instance, there were other members of the Go-
vernment, who he thought were bound in honesty to
their constituents to come forward and explain the vote
they had given on his motion, or rather to apologise for
it. He thought it became the Right Hun. Baronet the
Secretary fur the Home Department for one to adopt
that course. That Right Hon. Baronet bad voted whit:
on one occasion and black upon another; and he be"
not condescended to explain why he voted black when
ho ought to have voted white.—(Laughter.) In 1842
the Right Hon. Baronet gave his support to the pro'
tection of Voters Bill, in 1849 he considers that voters
require no protection.—(hear, hear.) He asked him to
explain what had happened between 1842 and 1849.
which had caused the necessity for such a measure to
disappear? Would he tell them that the people were
less to be depended on in 1849 than they were in 1842?
—(Hear, bear.) If he did so, it would be base ingrati-
tude on his part, for no man had better opportunity
of seeing the fidelity and honesty of the people than th°
Right Hon. Baronet had had, and lie could tell him that
had it not been for that fidelity and that honesty, the dtv
ties of the Secretary of State for the Home d.partnient
would have been more arduous during 1848 than they,
had been. But there were others upon whom he bad
also, a right to call for explanation, and among these was
the Master of the Mint.--(Laughter.) He well recol•
lected the effect thespeech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
in reference to the ballot in 1842 had upon him. erg
earnest and impressive reasoning, urged in words the
burn, depicted the system in its most clear and revolting
form; but that Riht Hon. Gentleman having now gc4
seat on Treasury Bench, contents himself with asYiP
that he does not think the people are so desirous of such,
a measure now as they were then.—(llear, and laughter./
He must say that, by acting as they had done, Go-
vernment had lost all the confidence their own 59)-
porters reposed in them. And now the Noble Lord, !°-
stead of looking for support to that quarter whose
prin-
ciples gave him the best claim to do so, had only to /o
to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and the fact scote
could depend upon no support except that given him
the '.Tories.—(Hear hear.) Such a state of things
he-
conceived to be deplorable. Ho was himself returned to
that House nut in any way connected with the AOll.
Corn-law League, but, as an independent Member, ni,
ing to support the Noble Lord when be thought DIP'
but 11° • right, and oppose when he thought hiss wrong;

Would now tell the Noble Lord that the people were
more inclined to have the Right Hon. Baronet in office I
by him. With these observations he would conclude,
seconding the motion, in the assurance that, although
ere,
mmight be a m ijority of votee against it in that
°,llBO, there was an overwhelming majority in its favour
uf, doors, and which he had no doubt would soon be
de to tell within.
gSir GEORGE GREY said, the Hon. Gentleman who
°m Just sat down had no reason to be surprised at the
nllrs e Government had taken on a late occasion, for he
irat be aware that this motion, or one to a similar ef-
et and which included the reform to which the Hon.
ember had alluded, underwent an able and elaborate
l 'eh asim in that House for two nights during last ses-
,-i and that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
elllnlent did then fully argue the question, and that the
ijajtents he addressed to the House, and the opinions
is-,,taen expressed, were sanctioned and adhered to by a
'it majority of that House on a division taking place.
...oe,Vart hear.) If, therefore, the Noble Lord on this
eC,sl,_on should not address the House, no one could be
befa" as to his opinions regarding the question
soo°re it, these so fully expressed on the
anion alluded (Hearnto.—ehear.)• There were, how-
^-er' it was true, different eircumstances this year
rsialleeted with the question.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
rfmbar for Montrose had alluded to some of these, and
lt:igatated that while this year there were no petitions
favoures of his motion, last year there were large
sertab ers, although he (Sir G. Grey) could not help ob
f eg that the greater proportion o thoe were in
lai_our of the six points of the Charter,f ands not of the
Gentleman's plan. They were, however, seme-
s
gat dip's CUM • mstanced, from last year, inasmuch
a th
P e•Y haad ve ' exerin other
esen
tries ofd so hmethingtwel of monthsthe system p
theence Hon. i
Gentle-
filsought to introduce, and he could readily afford to
"81-10 with him on the internal state and condition of
eflemantry as contrasted with the state and condition
ttexpse countries on the Continent, which he seemed so
wee °1:18 to adopt as his model.—(Loud cheers.) He
sue,.
t going to say a word in disparagement of those
who were endeavourin to obtain ir ancien
Rua, bensand the establishment ofg that liberty which may,
iii;u4s, have been too long withheld from them ; but
leek the Honourable Gentleman tells this House to
the St them, and to imitate them in the system
firip were carrying on, then he answered that his
eekti and most cherished feeling was one of
ti
times oo Rued
thankfulness that he lived under a cons.titti
' the strengththankfulness
of which had been tested at differs
hadand under most terrible circumstances, but which.
wh; still stood the test of all assailants, and the value of
pe Len Was felt and appreciated by the great body of the
te°l3le.---(Loud cbeers ) The Hon. Gentleman had said
-ate '
the large military force was kept up in this country for
to iattaintenance of internal peace, and that they ought
gni aye no military establishment other than that re-
iseered for the protection of their colonies and fur ex
When defence. God grant that the time might come
,„-en it might be the case, when they would require no
force as alluded to, when no military would be
insquired for the internal government of the country, or
"t the prevention of foreign aggression, and that the
Pert
e,ati would Come when they might turn their spears
tO pruning-hooks, and their swords into ploughshares,
and when they should learn the art of war no more—(A
enl°)—but when the Hon. Gentleman said that those
4stitutions on the continent led to those revolutions
• 'eh had taken place there, he was ready to join issue
rtilth hinlagain, and to ask him, whether he would be will-
of to accept universal suffrage with the accompaniments
W. tiled force which was to be seen in Paris, together
been the other agencies, which during the last year had
et 4, at work in France.—(Cheers.) Under the existing
the*: of things, the Hon. Gentleman must know, that
tted,waa an overwhelming force of troops in France,
Antell',though it might not be important to allude to
eener&ea, yet he found that even there it had been found
treo'ssarY at New York to call cut a body of armed
serd)7, for the purpose of clearing the streets of an as
in d Ige of riotous persons, and who had not succeeded
koboueg so
until they were obliged to fire upon the
chesl and several persons had been killed.—(Loud
s
e s Thus, even in America military were re-
to preserve order.
Ade sslMlE.—They were not armed troops.
New ..u.O3BDRxT
, --,—There is not an armed soldier in
Sir AG re.
the ;,,,GREY.—There was-an armed force called out,
iedYtew,e-- ordered to fire upon the people, and..
.severalia
eneenuals had died of gun shot wounds, which aa
01u0Proof that they were an armed force of some kind
Wh_tther
fop (Hear, hear, and cheers.) With regard to
Where Place last year, there were several stations
the aMilitary were placed, in consequence of
W b. Mall number of police in the districts
ere see
ever b''`` stations were situated; but no attempt. had
fore,, been made to overawe the people by a military
Gfie should, however, like to know, were the
W ood 'fitienean allowed to bring in his 13111, how he
sestina ..act with regard to the framing of the extension
of flu; °f it. Theme was the motion, Isio. 4. on the paper
Nottin isdaY' given notice of by the Hon. Member for
"act 1"4131 (Mr. O'Connor), and which was for the
the 141110nt of two additional points to that proposed by
deg Was Member. How would he do with these? It
rable to have a definite plan before them before
foureeYtlvi ere called upon to agree to the motion, and there-
net n,'e, necessity for explanation on that point. It was.
tett° " reasonable to cause them to give up the consti-
joforn they were living under, without having some
reation
.zohan as to what sort of one they were to get in
Sten ge, or having some knowledge of whither such a
meo,ould lead them.—(Hear, hear.) At most of the
reotieingss held on the subject of the Hon. Gentleman's
to lieu°, there was invariably a difference of opinion as
Wept fart they should go, but in most instancs they
re her than the Honourable Gentleman. With
tropin to Lord Ashley's having given prizes at Exeter
bee' to the working classes of the community for the
Mwritten essays, he was glad to find that no Hon.
ember had indulged in any disrespectful remarks against
41t Noble Lord; and if the Hon. Member for Montrose
r• Hume) thought that the right of suffrage was due
o those
who excelled in those essays which were indi-
e'llre of sound reason, of intelligence, and of religion,
t's! (Sir George Grey) begged to remind him (Mr. Hume)
that women were the best essayists on that occasion, and
;°:ait Lord Ashley particularly complimented them.—
laughter.) And, therefore, if a necessary inference
the right
be drawn, it was that the women should obtain
right of universal suffrage as well as the male adults.
are Laughter.) He did not mean to say that a finality
eostem ho uld be established, because those principles, or
eon asses,
of them, then advocated by the two Hon. Members
ssrs, F. O'Connor and Hume) might be requisite at
eAcestede future time, He thought that it would be wellg to
e those alterations which reason and judgment sug•
t and he
edible not at all consent to give up the pri•
ere gea t ssings which the country at present
tojq•ed, as the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) seemed
wiih
to do.—(dear, hear.) It was difficult to
'runl the two Hoe. Members what was to be the
kltation of the suffrage, for the Hon. Member for
u
ntrose
Says he is for having as a standard the popu-
tbor the , taxation, and education of the country, and also
more appointment of representatives be rendered
stt,o,
_equal to the population. In fact, on that point, he
$q no difference between the two Hon. Members (Mr.
differeea and Mr. F. O'Connor); but in this point they
Opy,o_ '4, because the Hon. Member for Montrose was
]!sternirect to equal electoral divisions, while the Hon.
equal° rfor Nottingham acted consistently in supporting
ahort electoral divisions; for if he (Mr. Hume) stopped
he (Si°rffes'is (Mr. F. O'Connor's) idea on that subject,
"ergtireer;:eeurge Grey) would ask him (Mr. Hume) what
division [Lc had or could adduce against equal electoral
8401 4-3* His (Sir George Grey's) opinion was that
totally sYstem could not be maintained, because it would
rea onset the whole system of representation as it at
"t existed ; but should say that he would
theseae-evreee two Honourable Gentlemen to settle the
lent of f equality pointsquay(H Arrange-
tee, ot these two p he feared would involve the
keeLsiature in inextricable difficulties, and would there-
*" for
•Etieedthe present prefer that that subject were
kot•—:(llear There were two more parts of the
loturaeis Member for Montrose's motion, to which he
linl to allude—the vote by ballot, and triennial Par-
ka, ellts• With respect to the vote by ballot, the Hon.
zazt_taber (Mr. H. Berkeley) spoke with soreness on the
treft,°er in which his motion on that subject had been
es,,"efl, but he (Sir George Grey) should say that after
4:41 years, since that measure bad been introduced in
foil Rouse, he did not think it necessary or expedient to
''ew him on the late occasion, for at the
former period the motion was defeated by a
gt3' large majority of the House. Ile (Mr.
~srkeley) thought that he should give an apology, be••
an
14Se in 1842 he (Sir G. Grey) voted for this measure,
Celi,n 1849 he voted against it, or in other words used
se--d"un (Mr. Berkeley) he had voted white one day, I
sh„(34 another day voted black. But to that he
opinion reply, reply, that it was not necessary to retain one's
in always on any one point, for at the time he voted
the --7°ltr of the measure he saw that the influence of
fay great masses of the country was directed in its
ade•
atnn,r, which was not the case at present, and he should
-at he had stated at that time that he was vehry re-
en, shoul
la giving his vote for the motion. Siticet
nth
recollected, that a great change. had taken
by tiei With respect to intimidations as elections,. caused
dist, e influence of public opinion. He felt it hie bounden
t1e44,.°0 reflecting on the speeches of many o .
(kr. Vs, and particularly the Hon. Member for Oldham
011 the°) on that subject, to alter his opinion; and that
keteb:Prior occasion, when he voted fur it, it was as a
eable-,r of the Government, and not as a member of the
Route With respect to Triennial Parliaments, the
e th would have an opportunity of giving their opinion
slsonies second reading of that Bill; and he therefore
thou.', not enter into any detail on that matter, as he
seemed
that the greater number of Members present
Membd to have no anxiety on that subject. The Hon.
er4,. for Montrose said, in the end of his speech,
this House does not represent the interests and feel,
ti,s! of the country; but to that assertion he should reply
tnuotlat
t,ao it dr.ding to 'the present constitution of Parlie-
present the interests and feelings of the
r32ll:_ttory fairlyd re
and adequately; for he had seen the
ok.'_'ll.tis of the people fully expressed in that House, and
auras
interests promoted by the carrying of great urea
ea
el:res through the just influence of their honest feelings. i" considered the people were the sole and only
rmeansough
which great popular measures were carried only
carlitiment, and that tho present motion would tend
very much to embarrass, and create
considerableoar) danger
to those beneficial measure:.—(Bear h
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that he did net intend to
'Peak on that motion, but for the allusions mane t° him
11 the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey).
es and
And
elthen he had treatel the House with trageth
American
gar
the circum-
eet, such as the French tragedy and the
sit/tsree) he seemed to have forgotton that
England
fe'nees that led to the French revolution were the re-
-4°l of those very rights which the people of
re-
Were now contending for, and were better able to enjoy,
reeotTs? the people of France were so constituted that
r„,,Liti°ll Was to be expected, for if they, the people of
"'es; had the right of suffrage and the other

measures which the Honourable Member for
M aitrose advocated, they would not he led
to physical l:volution. But es France had
be n a'luded to by the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (Sir G. Grey), he would ask him was France ever
more tranquil than at present, or was there ever less
probability that that people would be led by demagogues
for the accomplishment of now pripciples, than at pre-
sent? lie perfectly coincided with the arguments of the
Hon. Member for Montrose, because he believed his mo-
tion was a step in the right dire ction for the good of the
country, yet he would have wished that he included two
other important principle—narnely, no property qualifi-
cation and the payment of Members. Reference had
been made to America, but there, as well as in France,
the members are paid, and when he saw the Right Hon.
and Hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Benches, who re-
spectively received their stipend, and who so pertinaci-
ously adhered to their office because they were paid, he
would ask, why should not Members be paid ? He
should next say that the arguments advanced by the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Sir G. Grey), taken
from the speech of the Honourable and Learned Diem
ber for Reeding (Mr. Sergeant Talfourd) was rather for
a greater extension of the suffrage than for depreciating
it, as the Honourable and Learned Gentleman did
not stop 'at household suffrage, but extended to the
tent of the gipsy. He recollected that the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell) had stated at Bristol that the non-
electors should have a public influence over the electors
in the right of their vote, and in that sentiment he per-
fectly agreed with the Noble Lord. But now that
money is exerting its influence as much as then, he
thought the Noble Lord should take a retrograde move-
ment. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey) had
attacked the Hon. Member for Montrose as not having
any petitions to support his motion, but he (Mr. F.
O'Connor) had determined that the Ministers should no
longer have that as a handle or an obstacle to so impor•
tent a measure, for ho would have petitions from every
district throughout England for that motion, and show
them what he himself believed, that the Emancipation
Act, the Reform Bill, and the free trade measures, were
mere juggles, and that only for the working classes
the Ministry could never carry those measures. Yes,
he would appeal to men—the Chartists, who were
never guilty of ircendiarism—men who never burned
Bristol or Nottingham Castles—men who never took
about in derision the portrait of their King, and men
who were opposed to revolution; and he believed that
they and the rest of the English people would send peti-
tions to that House from their respective localities—not
a monster petition, to be subjected to a Petition Com-
mittee, but those for which they would severally avouch.
He would, therefore, support the motion, as he believed
it to be an instalment of the people's rights.
Colonel THOMPSON said that he was ready to ad
mit that this proposal had not been brought forward in
altogether the most happy and fortunate manner. It
did not appear to him that the course of proceeding
adopted was calculated to bring over to their side any
great amount of Ministerial support, and he should be
highly gratified if, upon further consideration, some
sign could be given that those men who were in truth
the representatives of the authors of one of the brightest.
because the most successful, revolution that ever took
place in the history of the world, were prepared to make
some concession to what was manifestly the spirit of the
age, and to take that lead which they should take in
advancing the interests of this country along with those
of Europa in general. There was nut one- fourth part
of the population of this country who did not believe
that England was seriously interested in the general
success of liberal principles throughout Europe.—(Hear.)
It was said it was sorrowful to see that those whom
Heaven and nature had marked out as the leaders of this
great movement, should not be found endeavouring to
secure placing themselvei at the bead of the adoption of
those liberal principles which were called for throughout
the country, and he earnestly hoped that they would not
be much longer found standing still in the great onward
movement.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. CAMPBELL said that he availed himself of the
present opportunity to make a few remarks. He though.
it must present itself to any mind of ordinary sagacity,
that this subject was intimately connected with that
which usually presented itself under the form of Char
tiSM . Was the object of this reform to precipitate the
adoption of the Charter? The first task incumbent upon
them was to identify this proposition with that of the
Hon. Member for Nottingham, which was not the less
in view, because of late much had not been heard of it.
In fact he might say of its supporters, that dum tacent
clument. There was no shutting their eyes against the
fact, that the government of the majority would be the
government of the British empire; but he was willing
to make an argumentative concession of the ques•
tion. All that lie wished the supporters of the
motion to concede was this, that if even this proposi-
tion was calculated to benefit the country, at least, it
was a proposition which could not be translated into
law, which could not be adopted by the Legislature with-
out a long period of agitation and discussion. Remounted,
in short, to nothing else than the transfer of power from
one class to another, and such a change should be cautious
and slow. Whatever energy now belonged to the House
of Commons, and whatever wisdom belonged to its lead-
ing Statesmen, should be devoted undtvidedly to the
state of Ireland, which was demanded imperatively at
their hands. It was only necessary to refer to the vast
amount of literature, which embraced this subject, in
order at once to be convinced of this; the opinion alone
of the late Mr. O'Connell were sufficient to establish
the ground he had taken up. He would submit to Irish
Members that it behoved them all most seriously to
beware how they became parties to any motion by which
the energy of Parliamsnt might be shaken, or its virtue
jee•p ardised. The Right lion. Baronet had proposed
a scheme for the regeneration of Ireland replete with
wisdom and prurience, and in that vast question there
was a field tor their labours which might far more
profitably be directed to it, than employed in can-
vassing a subj, ct, and in endeavouring to accomplish
it, the very tendency of which was to shake the existing
order of things, and to leave questions of great moment
in a state of greater uncertainty than attached to them
at present. In saying that much he was confident of
having the feeling of a large majority of the people of
the country with him, and persuaded, as he was, of its
truth, he was most anxious that a more able debater
than himself should take it up, and lay them before Par-
liament in the proper light. He had not even heard the
shadow of an anticipation of the nature of the objec-
tions that could be urged against it. In another con-
jecture than that which at present obtained, he con-
ceived that it might be proper, and even advantageous,
to inquire into the practicability of great constitutional
charges. But whilst they had:great questions to settle—
whilst they had great practical evils to redress—whilst
they had great wants to supply—he would contend, and
that, indeed, was the full extent of his argument, that an
examination of the operation of the Reform Bill was too
wide a question to he prosecuted with any prospect
either of success or utility. The Honourable Member
for Montrose, however, and his political partisans upon
this question, not only challenged this question, but he
came forward the avowed champion of democracy, con-
tending broadly that all men were alike entitled to the pri-
vilege of exercising the Parliamenrary franchise. For his
own part, he thought it would not be difficult to esta-
blish a complete defence of the Reform Bill in its prin-
ciple, details, and results; and an inquiry for that pur-
pose ought, in his opinion, to be a complete answer to
the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The
principle of the Reform Bill was, that the best form of
Government was the representative assembly elected by
the middling clastes of the community. That principle
was propounded 2,000 years ago by the greatest master
of political philosophy. It had on many occasions re-
ceived the sanction of men of learning and ability, but
bad never, as he believed, been applied to the case of
actual practice, until the Reform Bill was introduced. It
was unreasonable to suppose that the lower classes could
ever be sufficiently informed upon public affairs, to act
with general wisdom as a body in returning Members of
Parliament; and he need only refer to the events of the
memorable 10th of April, for an example of the animus
which must be taken to inspire the lower classes in a
great political movement. But if the Reform Bill had
not occasioned a complete representation of the middle
classes, he would put it to the House whether that signal
defect in it would not have formed a widely•spread topic
of discussion at the general election of 1847, and at the
large public meetings held all over the country, by which
it was preceded. Oa a question of this sort, however
desirable it might be on other occasions, rigid demon-
stration was not, perhaps, the best mode of attaining
the object in view, neither was it, perhaps, altogether
attainable. Still ho was quite prepared, were he called
upon to do so, to investigate the principles of the two
Charters, with as much scrutinising penetration as could
be wished for by its warmest advocate. The Charter
proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose was of a
nature that would prove dangerous to the best interests
of society; it was of too extensive a character, and
ought to be listened to with great caution by the House.
lie could not but refer the House to the disorders and
dtEhi
usotrsuoerpbe
countriesaa nnc ca tuhna
at tr
is heosau,dn
sound
recentlymiddle taken place in several
ewn
lga s
st,hat
the theygrea
great safeguard
engouta
ri
dn
against such disturbances. The House should there-
fore take care that it did not lightly listen to the propo-
sition of the H Montrose.
Hon. Member for
meant that the system of government which they
enjoyed ought, under no circumstances, to be changed for
the Charter of the people, then he should say that he
was for the finality of the Reform Bill, which implied a
Government of the m ddle classes—the. safest and only
secure mode of government they could have. He trusted
the House would bear with him for trespassing so long
upon its indulgence.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
much longer trespass on its patience, but before he re-
sumed his seat he would implore the House, in the name
of their institutions, in the name of the middle classes,
in the name of order, and of everything which they
valued, not to give its assent to the proposition of the
Honourable Member for Montrose. The House of
Commons would, he trusted, consult its own dignity, and
not he led away from its interests and those of the
such propositions. Since the proposition
tosub their
t presentthe r
cwoausn tnothingry by any
,_
House of Commons, since it invited Short of an limpeacohdmaremt
of theh
institutions; and since the character and objects of the
he roust oppose
, welfare or stability of those institutions,,
People's Charter were not of a nature to promote the
libert • in the name
of freedom, in the na:ne of rational ),.
the proposition of the Hon. Member, and in the name
of all that was dear to the country, he implored the
• House to oppose it.
Mr. L. KING doubted very much that the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down represented the
opinions of the inhabitants of the borough of Cam-
' bridge, for if he did, they must have become very much
l changed indeed.—(Hear, hear.) The motion of the
Hon. Member for Montrose was now regularly, and he
• regretted to say, necessarily, an annual one—one which
the safety of the country required, and he believed that
I there was no one more calculated to carry out its princi-
, ples than the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
t (Lord John Russell), by %%horn the Reform Bill was in-
r troduced.—(Hear, herr.) If in the great revolutionary
7 year which they had recently gone through their country

was not shaken, it was, he believed, because they were
in advance, in the freedom of their institutions, of the
peop!o of those countries over which the revolutionary
movement swept. But if they wished to secure their in-
sttutions, and to render them of the value which they
ought to be to the country, they would adopt the
proposition of the Honourable Member for Montrose,
and not suffer themselves to fall into the rear of other
countries, now struggling for increased fr,edoin. He
warned them, if they neglected their opportunity, that
they might regret it. He warned the House that ano.
ther Reform Bill was necessary—(Hear, hear)—that
there would be danger in delay, and that it would not be
wise in them not to listen to the voice of the people. He
could state to the House, in proof of the necessity of
reform, that while Reigate, with a population of little
more than 5,000, returned one Member to Parliament,
and while Guildford, with a population of little more
than 6,000 returned two, making between them three
Members, Croydon, with a population more than double
that of both those places, did not send a Member, and
was not at all represented in that House. Now, with all
respect for the 101. householders of Reigate, and with all
respect for the 10/. householders of Guildford, he thought,
that the people of Croydon, forming a much larger po
pulatiou, and not less intellectual, were quite as worthy
of being represented, and that a system which did not
admit of their being represented, and which was so
glaringly defective, required reconstruction. The people
were dissatisfied, and they felt that injustice had
been done to them in being denied the right of free I
citizens.—(hear, hear.) _ _

Mr. NE, WDEGATE said the Hon. Member for
East Surrey (Mr. King) went far enough for the Mem-
ber for the West Riding, though much too far for the
Hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Campbell) who had
justly complained that the time of the House was lost in
discussing the motion, an opinion in which he (Mr. New-
degate) agreed, for the motion had somewhat the appear-
ance of a useless formality, for the Hon. Member for
Montrose could hardly conceal from himself that, though
he proposed to the House to undertake the re-construc-
tion of the constituency of the country, the Hon. Mem-
ber had already undertaken it in the association which
met at St. James's-square, of which the Hou. Member
for Bolton was president. They had, in fact, a Reform
Bill going on out of the House, As far as the mere en-
franchisement of the freeholders went, he (Mr. Newde=
gate) had very little to say; but those who worked
that point were the members of the lite Anti Corn law
League—namely, the Honourable Member for the
West Riding, the Honourable Member for Manchester,
the Honourable Member for Bolton, and Mr. George
Wilson. By calling the attention of the House
to the difference of tactics in respect of the
two systems, an understanding might be arrived at of
the motives of this body. In the year 1845 these gen-
tlemen objected to the constituency of Warwickshire in
the registration courts; 17,000 objections were made to
his (Mr. N.'s) portion of the constituency in those days;
23,000 objections were made in all. These objections
were supported by legal astuteness, and by an unscrupu-
leus use of the means at the command of those who
made them. Their failure in North Warwickshire, he
believed, disheartened them; out of 700 objections made
to one parish, 12 alone were sustained, and the re
mainder were withdrawn. This induced the adoption of
another system, which originated in Manchester; and
from 90.0001. to 98,0002 passed through one office, that
of Messrs. Sale and Worthington, for the purchase of
freeholds in the west riding of Yorkshire and
Cheshire. Twenty-seven persons were thus intruded on
the representation of the west riding alone, who had
nothing whatever to do with the county. The
result of this system was stated by Mr. George
Wilson, who said that the total of the county con
stituencies of England was 445,63 u, of which 143,731
had been attacked—namely, one-third of the whole.
Mr. Wilson said then the labours of the past year were,
he was persuaded, only the beginning of another order
of things. It was, therefore, a serious matter to find
that these operations, commenced by the Anti-Corn law
League, were renewedly avowed by the same gentleman.
The Hon. Member for Manchester had stated Oat not
only the counties, but the boroughs were to be dealt with
in a similar manner. The system of corrupting the
constituencies now practised was far worse than the old
rotten-borough system. There was a danger in import-
ing strangers into the constituencies, because the House
might interfere; so the system now was to facilitate the
purchase of freeholds for the purpose of qualifying to
vote. The purchaser, who was in debt to the society
for the instalments of his purchase, passed a bond—a
personal security, not a mortgage, as that would dis-
qualify his vote. Until he paid up these instalments he
was at the mercy of his securities, who might rccal the
money lent at any time in case of a contrary vote. It
wus true the purchaser might mortgage the freehold to
repay the advances; but that would deprive him of his
vote. Therefore his vote was for them, or it was no
vote at all.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member
for Montrose desired a change in the electoral
divisions. This would include certain classes, and
create a constituency perfectly corruptible. With
respect to 'the vote by ballot, he (Mr. Newdegate)
did not consider it any protection, while, on the
contrary, he looked upon it as completely open to fraud.
He was in Americo when the election of President took
place, and for all the check placed on surreptirious voting
by the ballot, he might have polled for that high func-
tionary if he had chosen. He (Mr. Newdegate-) did not
think that the country had any conflUence in the motion
of the lion. Member for Montrose, and he certainly
should give it his decided opposition.

Mr. gRIGHT corrected the Hen. Member's mistake,
when he attributed the new mode of enfranchising, the
peep].) to Manchester. It was devised in 13irminghatn
by Mr. James Taylor, and the Anti-Corn law League
had nothing to do with it. It was; hovvever, in his opinion,
a most fortunate discovery fur the country at large, as
by its means numbers of persons would he brought
within the pale of the constitution. Of this he (Mr.
Bright) was quite satisfied, as a result of that discovery,
that the Lion. Member and his colleague would not re-
present the constituency of Warwick in another Parlia-
ment unless there was a great change in their opinions.
The question before the House was one of the greatest
importance. The whole of Europe was abandoning the
old system of despotic government for a new one of re-
sponsibility-. The proposition of the Hon. Member for
Montrose was one recognised by the theory of the con-
stitution. It was, that the common people of England
had as sole a right in that House as the other branches
of the constitution. By Act of Parliament, however,
five out of the six of the full grown men of this kingdom
were excluded from all direct exercise of political
power, and, as far as the middle classes were concerned,
other arrangements rendered the representation, to a
large extent, a sham. He (Mr. B.) denit d that the Re-
form Bill was a middle-class Bill; it it was, would the
votes of the Members for Manchester be neutralised by
those of the Members for Stamford, who were returned
by the Marquis of Exeter. When he asked that they
should be admitted, the answer would be that they were
too ignorant to exercise the franchise judiciously, or
that they were to vicious, many of them, as to be likely
to turn their politics.l power to purposes that would be
destructive to the interests of the country. Now he (Mr.
Bright) was not one of those who believed that it re-
quired much school learning to choose a Member of Par-
liament, but if he were, the posi,ion certainly acquired
no confirmation from what they had seen in the repre-
sentatives of the Universities who sat in that /I,.use.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was himself
obliged to leave one of those Universities because he de-
teratined to adopt the course which he deemed to be ne-
cessary, and which every day of his life since he had
found reason to know was absolutely neces-
sary; and the Right Honourable Gentleman who now
represented the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goul-
burn) was supposed to sit in a most precarious posi-
tion—(A laugh)—not because he had neglected his duty
here, but because he had endeavoureit to banish from his
mind those prejudices and antiquitated notions which
lingered longest in our scholastic institutions, and had
opened his mind to the consideration of those questions
which the pressing necessities of the country demanded
should be listened to in this House.—(Hrar, hear.) The
workingandclasseswashadproofgreatofoneveryprogressofhand, 'ears,there
circulation of newspapers ably written and most moral
in their tone amongst them, and in the efforts they were
making, especially in the north of England, to educate
their children, and as adults to educate themselves.—
(Cheers.) There could be no doubt whatever but the
artizan of this country in the year 1849 was even a
different being from the artizan of the year 1832—(Hear)
—and even at that time his help was not disdained by
the Noble Lord and Right Hon. Gentlemen, who called
upon him to assemble and petition Parliament for the
passing of the Reform Bill. Ho was quite satisfied that
every class of the population was growing in intelligence
and in the knowledge of those things which were most
useful to enable a man to perform his social and political
duties aright. But would it be said that the working
classes were so vicious that they ought not to be ad-
mitted? No, there was not a man in that House who
wou!d venture to libel his countrymen by iterating such
a statement.—(Cheers.) They had no designs against
the monarchy or the constitution ; their only designs
were against the system which placed a ban upon them,
and in spite of their intelligence, their progress in the
arts, their industry, and ingenuity, they still shut them
out from a participation in those rights and privileges
which the citiesns of a free country might be expected
ohtrnb oeroee
regarded
believedcatr,iaed passion,oinetdaalf that,they e x
nheapdt tihnefran particularchis e
ncaosnefiadoefd
irritation
ttahteimo
n,
sourtdthhtenhuyas
mtewf
ouoslut mandi
fnlototroeo
intelligent,
representihgaael etaotu,wt isinr
tttutnhhoeeeumi
course
,owohuwnro
sonneme neigh-
bourhood
theygbicheh
extended,a l and parishnedl e catti otnnse,
twhneeyronostvheadofrpatnedthiinsethewiarsmmunoiactip
saute time least within the operation of any undue
or improper influence.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord at the head of the Goverment said last year
that the present system worked well, and enumerated
the various excellent measures which had ben
passed since the enactment of the Reform Bill. lie (Mr.
Bright) did not deny that the Reform Bill was a great
advance. Under these circumstances it was a good and
valuable measure; but such an argument as that was as
good against the Reform Bill of the Noble Lord as it
was against the present motion ; for the boroughinon-
gering Parliament had carried the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, the Catholic Relief Bill ; and, lastly,
the Reform Bill itself—and he did not know whether,
nceording to the Noble Lord's argument, this was not a
conclusive fact that even the Reform Bill was unneces-
sary. Did not the Noble Lord know that all the pro-
gress which had been made was a progress in accordance
with the democratic element in the constitution, and not
at all a progress in the contrary direction ? Sir Robert
Peel passed the Catholic Emancipation Act; afterwards
the Noble Lord passed the Parliamentary Reform Bill,
the Municipal Reform Bill, and the Bill for the abolition
of slavery; and then Sir R. Peel passed great changes in
the tariff and the repeal of the corn-laws. But how were
these measures carried? Twice civil war was threatened.
An illustrious; member of the Right lion. Baronet's Go-
vernmentdeclared, in 1829, that the alternative was Catho-
lic ewaacipaticia or chit war. Well, it was not a very wise