The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-03 00:00:00

ieeiPoierli—would the Noble Lord transtitet6t fur the benefit
of the country Hear, and a laugh ) A celebrates( illedran
writer (Mr. Senior) had stated that there were three grounds
for Statesmen's changing their opinirens----fiist, a great
intervening change in public opinion—secetidi,, terror
—or thirdly, interest. Nose, was it quite fa.r, for !lee
present Government to abandon the pi s en which
they exnell d the Right honourable 13arot.et (Set
Robert ['eel) from power, and adopt t'.e Jaeineples of
that Right lion. Baronet ?—( fleas.) Look to the condition
of Ireland : was the Church there more popular ?—( Hear.)
Meetings had been heilkin various parts of Ireland (a great
number of which the Wm. Member here enumeaated) at
which resolutions had been come to corelemeatery of the tithe
system, and expressive of their opnion that tithes could
never again be collected. He would now ask could
the House put down these feelings which had been
expressed by such immense multitudes? Could they put
down agitation in which so many of the men of property
in Ireland took part ?—( Hear ) Could they put down
agitation, which was not confined is the C itholies a'one,
but in which ti e gentry were found coinciding with
the humbler classes ? It was impossible. There wee
no power which could control these feelings. Before they
went into Committee on this Bill, which did nothing to
satisfy the Catholics of Ireland, ho entreated the House
to reflect deeply on what they were about to do.
Earl Grey had said that in the present state of opinioti
existing in the country, it was impossible to carry
this appropri ttion clause ; but considering the con-
duct of that Noble Lord when he had such a noble ma-
jority in that House—considering his conduct upon the
Coercion Bill, a Bill which he never thought of without feel-
ings of shame and humiliation for the course his ignorance of
the state of Ireland induced him to take—( Hoar, hear)--
considering all these things he could not consider
Lord Grey as any authcrity on Irish affairs.—( Hear.)
He endeavoured, as shortly as he could, to state his views to the
House on thissubject. He knew how much the subject had been
exhausted, but he had thought it to be his duty to point out
to the House the danger of going into Committee upon any Irish
Tithe Bill that did not contain in it the principle of appropria-
tion. Looking at the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, he
(Mr. Ward) thought the Government should give the people
of that country a pledge of the sincerity of their
intentions, by supporting the instruction he now had to move,
the principle of which was, that the Irish Church Establish-
ment could only be maintained by giving the Catholic inhabi-
tants an interest in its continuance.—( Cheers.)
Mr. HAWES seconded the motion.
Lord MORPETII said, that although the lion. Member
for Sheffield had, with his usual ability, covered a consider.
able space in his address to the House, and introduced a great
variety of topics and arguments against the course which the
Government intended to pursue on the present occasion, it
required but little explanation. He should not, therefore,
follow the Hon. Gentleman through any of his premises or
deductions, as they were chiefly the same which he had him-
self urged upon the House on former occasions. He did not
wish to press the case further now than was necessary, or to
follow the lion. Gentleman through all the abuses of the
Irish Church. He had never shrunk from describing those
abuses and supporting, every measure calculated for their
removal, even to the principle of appropriation ; but he did
not mean to enforce that principle now. He did not wish
to carry on a war of words when they had done fighting.
The Government had shown no inconsistency in bringing for-
ward the present Bill. They bad carried the resolution of
1835, and they still refused to rescind that resolution ; but
they thought the period had arrived when it was expedient to
terminate, or at least to take the best step they could towards
terminating the constant agitation, the collision, and the liti-
gation that existed in Ireland between the clergy and the
laity—the risks of fray and bloodshed between Protestants
and Catholics resulting from the collection of tithes. Would
the Hon. Gentleman wish to continue for four years longer to
risk a question bearing so directly on the peace and prosperity
of the people of that country ? For himself, he was not pre-
pared to take the responsibility of keeping Ireland for four
years longer in so deplorable a state. The question for the
House and for Parliament to consider was, whether or not it
would be expedient to leave that country another year in such
a state of suspense on this subject as must embitter and exas-
perate the feelinge of the people. Tho Hon. Member for Shef-
deld had said that they waited for the expression of public opi-
nion? But, by adopting the present Bill, might not they still
wait, and wait
,in repose, for the expression of that opinion.
The Government had struggled hard for the appropriation
principle, but they had been three times repulsed. He was
stating the fact. Three times they had battled for and carried
it, and three times had they been defeated. Nor did he think
they had one whit a better chance of success in the present
year. For this reason it was that no appropriation principle
was introduced into the present Bill. They judged it best for
the interests of the country, and especially for the kingdom
of Ireland, which was mainly concerned, not to introduce
the appropriation clause on the present occasion.—(Hear.)
The Government, therefore, felt themselves called upon to
resist the resolution of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, because
as an abstract principle that resolution was already on the
journals of the House, and they had refused to rescind that
resolution. This was ono reason for his opposition to the
present resolution; and his second reason was that he thought
it would be impossible to carry any Bill embracing that reso-
lution. He hoped that the Bill which the Government had
introduced would be beneficial to Ireland, and would tend to
put a stop to the present deplorable state of that country. For
the reasons he had submitted to the House he should give to
the resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Sheffield a
reluctant but decided negative.
Mr. HUME said that the situation in which the present
resolution placed himself and others was extremely unpala-
table.—( A laugh.) He had never flinched from supporting
the principle of appropriation; but as the Government were
now anxious to remove the causes of discontent in Ireland
by the Bill they had introduced, he should give them
his support in their attempt at conciliation. He feared,
however, that the process of conciliation had been
delayed too long, and that the present Bill would
not have the effect which was anticipated from it. Ireland
would not be satisfied with so paltry a measure. The Bill
ought to have gone much further ; all sinecures ought to have
been abolished. Until this and other measures were carried
out it was impossible to expect that Ireland would be satisfied.
Less might have done to conciliate twenty years ago, but not
now ; and he for one, if he were an Irishman, never would be
satisfied without the total annihilation of tithes and the correc-
tion of all other Church abuses in that country. No temporary
measure like the present Bill could succeed ; and unless the
Church Establishment in Ireland was reduced to the proper
wants of the Protestant population of the country, and the
surplus allotted to the general wants of the people, it could
not be expected that peace should ever be established there.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that no man ought to feel pain at
the performance of a public duty, and therefore he felt no pain
on the present occasion. He would warn the House as to
the course they were pursuing towards Ireland. He would
oppose the resolutions of the Hon. Member for Sheffield
fxsr the very reason that the Hon. Member had supported
them. Ile was quite sure the House was not aware of the
real state of Ireland any more than the Hon. Member for
Sheffield. The Noble Lord who had just spoken seemed
to imply that he thoaght there was mote peril in the pre-
sent condition of Ireland than was avowed. For his own
part, he declared that since he first commenced his political
life he never knew that country in so dangerous a state as it
was at present, lie had often known periods when he
thought a collision of arms was inevitable, but it had alwat s
been prevented by the interference of parsons in whom the
people had confidence. The time, however, was now come
when, if something more was not done, every effort to restrain
the fulness of the people would be in vain. He had gained no
popularity either in this country or in Irela'td by the agitation
he had kept up, but it was that very agitation that bad re-
strained the peepie from more violent measures. He saw the
volcano on which they stood, and he viewed agitation as
the best means of preventing its vomiting. Lord Norrnanhy
and the course_of policy he had pursued had done much to
allay irritation in the public mind ; but still their meetings
were held, at many of which 100,000 men were assembled.
They had no leaders, no ad,isers, but met from their own
simultaneous impulse in countless numbers to declare their de-
termination not to accept this paltry measure, but to insist on
the total abolition of titheo The people of Ire land were de-
termine I not to pay tithes, and they would not pay thew.
Wes the House, then, prepared to coetieue a system that
must result in blood ? Twenty meetings of the sort he had
described had taken place within six weeks, and he under.stood
seven more were to be held within the nest ten days. Tithes
must be either abolished altogether in Leland or the surplus
appropriated to the general purpose of educating the p,,ople.
lie hal offeretl a coatpronthe, but that compromise would not
do now. If three years ago the appropriation principle had
been adopted, the question of abolishing tithes might have
been thrown back fifty years, but the longer it was postponed
the more difficult it would be to bring the question to any sa-
tisfactory adjustment. The present Bill did certainly contain
the appropriation principle, for it went to appropriate thirty
per cent. of the property of the Church to the landlords.
The resolutions that had been passed by the House provided
for the spiritual wants of the Protestant people of Ireland,
and yet they Were treated as a horrible invasion of the Pro-
testant Church. He need scarcely say, that, although he
should vote against the resolutions of the Hun. Member for
Sheffield, he was still in favour of the appropriation prin-
ciple. His wish was that the Church property should be
handed over to the Woods and Forests, and that the Pro-
testant Clergy should be provided for out of the Consolidated
Fund. In England the ecclesiastical revenue went to sup-
port the Church to which the great majority of the people
belonged. In Scotland the same principle prevailed ; but in
Ireland precisely the Opposite principle pretailed—for there
the revenues of the Church were applied to the uses of the
Church with which the great mass of the peeple had no con-
neetime If they were to !owe a union surely it ought to be on
equal terms. In the diocese of Armagh, which was the most
Protestant district in Ireland, there was evee there a surplus
of 700 Catholics over the Protestant population, and in all
Ireland there was a surplus of Catholics over Protestants
of 5,500,000. The House ought not to forget that the first
act of the English Reformed Parliament towards Ireland
was to sus; end the Constitution in that country, and pass a
Bill of outlawry against her. They had tried to put down
Ireland by injury and insult, which did not succeed, and now
they were trying to put her down with what they called Pro-
testantism. They had tried the sword and the gibbet, and
now they were trying insult. This Bill would not quiet the
people, but the contrary, for it would create dissension be-
tween the landlord and tenant. The Hon. and Learned
Member concluded by observing that this Bill would not give
that security to the Established Church %shied) its edvecates
calculated upon. however, had warned the House with
regard to the present state of Ireland, and he should sit down,
contenting himself with having told the House that if they
escaped from the danger which threatened them from Ireland,