The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-04 00:00:00

be dispelled, because it is directed against the religion which
is endowed with tithes. To whatever they'changed tithes the
hatred would be transferred, because it was the application of
them that was odious to the millions in Ireland, and therefore
the only operation which the change proposed could have
would be to endanger the payment of the landlords' rent."
These were the opinions of an eminent and distinguished
Protestant. The Dissenters might perhaps wish a afferent
application of tithes. He, for one, deemed them public pro.
perty, and he thought they ought to be made applicable to
the education of the children of the pour, and the support of
the agel and the infirm, instead, as would be. the effect of
this me isure, of being transferred into the pockets of the
Irish landlords. Against any such proceeding he entered his
protest. He knew that what he stated would be cheered
by neither side of the House, because it was unpalatable.
to both.—(Cheers and laughter.) If this Bill were peseeed
there could be little doubt that it would notb:L,
proprietora
before a similar arrangement was made for. En ip
he thought lie could discern the chuckling of the
of land in this country' at the prospect they had of
virus
cipating in an advantage similar tS, that given to the
landlords of Ireland, namely, putin'ag into their own pockets
25 or 30 per cent. of the
e'ts, incomes of the clergy ; and yes,
in the face of all-+i
.s, Noble Lord the Member for Lau..
ha-cashire _ protested against appropriation, and wessid
..e them believe that he was standing up for the
rights of the Established Church ! Why, after this, could it
be said that appropriation was not a common object of both
Bills ; for did not they fully agree in taking as rench as they
could of the property of the Church, in order to apply it to
the very worst of all secular purposes, namely, that of en-
riching the landlords at the expense of the Clergy? Yet on
this both parties were ready to go to the country ; but he waist
say that it strongly recalled to his mind the fable of the cat
and the monkey. The cat had obtained a piece of cheese,
and gave it to the monkey to decide how it should be disposed
of. What did the monkey do ? Why, it first bit a lump off
one side and then a lump off the other, until the piece of
cheese became so reduced in size that the cat got alarmed,
upon seeing which the monkey swallowed the residue, at the
same time telling the cat that justice could not otherwise be
done.—( A laugh.) Now let them see how the Bill was likely
to work. It would accomplish one of two things, or both ;
but certain it was, that whatever might be its effect, the Con-
solidated Fund would in the end have to pay the entire stipends
of tho Protestant Clergy of' Ireland.—( Opposition cheers.)
What did the Bill now before the House propose? Why it
proposed to abolish tithes a'together in Ireland, and that every
1001. of tithe should be made a charge of 751. on the land.
This rent charge of seven-tenths "was to be received in future
by the Woods and Foreste; and the parties entitled to re-
ceive it were on the Ist of January in each year to receive
drafts for th© amount of their incomes on the Bank of Ireland,
and those', drafts, if not paid before the Ist of February follow-
ing, were to bear interest. The Government in short took
upon itself the payment of the whole of this money, Welch, if
the matter were left alone, would be recovered byt7ne clergy
from the tithe-payer.—( Cheers.) Even suppos2.ng that this
measure met the concurrent approbation of iatholic, Protes-
tant, and Dissenter, it could not put art rend to the resistance
to the payment of tithes in Ireland. TA was-a delusion to sup-
pose that the tax under the- muse of rent-charge would be
more cheerfully paid than when, it existed under the name of
tithes.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland would soon
discover the delueion—they would discover that this was an
attempt to mislead tliem—ant that under another name they
would have to pay the same money, and to the same amount,
for the support of the Protestant Church. This attempt to
conceal the real object of the measure froth the people was
just like those means that were resorted to to persuade chll-
dren to take physic; the medicine was disguised under Some
palatable form. " Come, my little dear, take it ; it trill do
you good."—( A laugh.) The people of Ireland were quick,
intelligent, and jealous of insult ; and it was an insult to
their understandings to say to them, " We will not ask you
to pay tidies under the name of tithes; we will give some
more fashionable designation, and call it rent-charge ; and
surely then you cannot possibly object to' pay it."—(Loud
laughter.) This might succeed for a year or two ; but at
the end of that time the same agitation, the same hostility, the
same organised resistance—( Cheers from the Opposition).—
which now prevailed against tithes in Ireland, would then exist
against rent charge. But what was the remedy to put an end
to the resistance that was now so ripe against tithes in Ireland ?
It was this—that the rent charge 'should be made a principal
charge upon the land, and to gisve the same remedy to enforce
its payment that now existed to enforce the payment of rent.
What would in a few years be the necessary result en': th's
measure ? The tame resistance as before would preeeil, the
tithe would. k'e paid in some instances and withheld in others.
What, ie the mean time, would be happening ?--( Hear, hear,
hetne ) You would have entered into a ceriain engagement
with the Clergy to buy their tithes. The Commissioners of
the Woods and Forests, under all the circumstances, would be
compelled to pay those Clergymen under the terms of their
agreement, at least until 1843. The agitation which would
have been lulled for a short period would break out afresh, and
there would be the same successful resistance to rent, charge
which now prevailed against tithes ; and whilst all, this was
-
happening, what would be the result ? This property would
have passed into the hands of the Catholic Cliesgy.—(Cheers
,tom the Opposition.) He was not certain that his Hon. Friend
the Member for Middlesex was prepared to support this propo-
sition. That Hon. Member was trut.y the guardian of the
public purse, and that Hon. Gentleman had been occasionally
taunted ; 3ct no man in the, Etouse had earned for himself a
more solid fame, or desereed more gratitude for his persevering
and untiring exertions in the cause of economy.—( Hear. )
He called on that Hen. Gentleman, however reluctant he
might be on an occasion of this kind to take any course that
might. be inconvenient to tile
.patty...with whom he acted, yet
he called on him to come forware and ssy whether lie was pre-
pared to support a measure which distinctly, if not imme-
diately, must have the effect of fastening the payment of the
tithes of Ireland upon the Cot solidated Fund.—( Cheers from
the Opposition.) God forbid that he should ever see the re-
venues of the Protestant Church in the possession of the
Roman Catholic clergy.—(Loud cheers.) . He hoped he
would never see the day in which Catholicity would exist in
this country unless as a sect.—(Continued cheering.) It
must be viewed with eantion. The leading Catholics, both
in Tani out of that Hcuse, were advocates fur the voluntary
system, yet it was opposed to the very genius and spirit of
Catholicism. The spirit of the Catholic Church wes to
aim at an Establishment. He, as a true Dissenter end as a
true advocate of the voluntary system, was opposed to all
establishments whatever. He denied that Cli7istianity re-
quired any such assistance. The Catholic rePgion relied on
an establishment ; it was universal in its pretences, and
quarrelled with any other.—( Loud and continued cheering.)
The Protestant Dissenter was meek and lowly in his pursuits.
—( A laugh.) He had no creed but the ...;criptures—his faith
required no establishment to support it ; it stood independent
of such aids. It had not, like the Protestant Church, a Pope
at St. James's ; nor, like the Catholic Church, a Pope in
Rome, as its earthly master. Tlie grounds on which he re-
fused his assent to • the Bill be had clearly stated. Though
they might not be acceptable to the' majority of the House,
yet he thought that they were sufficient to justify him in hold-
ing the opinions that he had always held on this subject. Ile
opposed the measure, because he felt that it would not answer
the ends it proposed. But, then, he might be asked, " Would
you then leave things as they are ; would you leave Ireland a
scene of continued agitation ; would you cloud the prospect
that is now brightening for that industrious and patient
people ?" Ile said, in answer to all-the appeals of this kind
that might be made to him, that he would do no such thing.
What he proposed to do was quite the reverse. Let there,
whilst 'they declared their determination to respect all
living interests--and he was sure that on this the feel-
ings of the Irish people would go with them—let them
bring forward a measure declaring tithes extinct now and for
ever. Let them not extinguish it by substituting a rent charge
amid putting 30/. per cent, into the pockets of the landlords,
but let them really, and substantially, and at once extinguish.
tithes for ever. Let them apply that money, not by turning
it into the Exchequer as a miserable bribe to the people of
England ; but let them, with that money in their hands, say to
the people-of Ireland, we will raise your prostrate millions
from the dust—we will give bread to your aged, and educa-
tion to' your young, and we will give improvement to
A;,-
peals had been repeatedly made to them on this subject. The
most splendid orator of modern times, in a speech which he
had addressed to the House, had asked what was to become of
of the famishing millions of Ireland if they refused to pass the
Bill? in that speech he told the House that there were at
present in two millions starving with want Plitt struggling in
the agoeies• of death. But, he would ask, what interest had
these starving millions in the Bill before the House? What
would it do to relieve them? Had any Proposition been made
for the relief of the destitute condition of these suffering mil-
lions?—(Cheers from the Opposition.) It had often beets
complained that Ireland was not represented in that House;
but he contended that there was no part of the empire better
or more ably represented. It was most ably represented by
the energy of a single individual, and if there were feesy
heads, there seemed to be only one mouthpiece.—( A laugh.)
He did not fear that the peole of Ireland would net; support
the proposition which he now made, if they once; understood
its merits. He would not fear to stand in College-green,
Dublin; and tell the people of Ireland h'.s- proposition. That
was his plan, and which he felt mottla satisfy the people. It
would confer benefit on all, and strengthen the Government
—(loud cries of " Oh, ols," from the Ministerial side of the
House ; and cries of." Order," from the Opposition)—and
strengthen the Government, by gathering round them the
uffi=utione of the people.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The plan laid down by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman is, above all things practicable.—( A
laugh.) The great merit of his scheme is to lay hold of the
tithes of Ireland, and apply them to the use of the poor.
That scheme of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has for its
great recommendation, that it is certain of being carried into
effect. (Laughter and cheers.) He has only f
---h
to propose it,
and everybody
will vote for it—he is sure of it himsele,
who has boasted of his candour and tlncerity.—(Much cheer-
ing and laughter.) It is,c‘r,hciaellity nmoatkheinsghbimut tihmea7iinlke ofb e h
cu
omual
d
own part, I am deeply indebted'
n
'Pshol'otraynyme in saying that, with all the
fke
rdor tyhu
ces kindness
hr rduannes n6hme oe
hy.
ae
sr
interese I have taken in Ireland, I have never once thought br
-ay thing for the benefit of lreland.—(Opposaion cheers.)
respect that cheer—(Renewed cheers from the Oppesit!on)—
there is sincerity in it—it is like the Hon. and Leeened Gen-
tleman, perfectly sincere.—( Loud cheers from tile Ministerial
benches.) He did certainly, in his benevolenze, tell us one
thing which cannot be denied—he spoke of the merits of my
Hon. Friend who is by me ; and I will tell him in return, that
one of my Hon. Friend's merits is, that he never sacrificed his
principles or his party to his miserable resentments or disap.
pointments—(Renewed cheers)—when a great national ques-
tion is being discussed, not thinking of the merits of that
question, or its practical results, but thinking how he should
exhibit a little miserable, spiteful resentment,—(Opposition