The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY. JUNE 11, 183 g.

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n. t sly that you were made pro;trate, for that can never be. 1 tie means. The Noble Lord says that there shall be twelve
—( ci.,!.ring Peon the Opposition.) I ask you :wain, are I Corporations in Ireland. and that in the twentv.one
eaf towns
your schemes now improved ?—( Renewed cheering from bo.ll named in the schedule the 9th of George IV. shall loe oreed.
sides of the House. ) The l-light Hen. Baronet, ; I well Now, Sir. did not we agree with the Noble Lord in the latter
knew. was not all adventurer—be was not a speculator en principle? Did not we propose that every town hereti,''fore en-
peblie ruin:—'( Loud cheering from the Opoositi in ) Ile titled to corporate franchise might adopt that very Act?—
cIA cut think that t',e Flieht lloneurable B ,ronet woula (dear, hear.) But I would ask, has the Noble Lora thought
stihmit to construe_ so ,nary electric shocks ihr the it necessary to enfaree that statute with regard tithe corporate
country as. this.—(Tae same cheer; renewed.) There ee..-e towns of I...flighted ?Na suet, thing Another fallacy •in the
sixty-four lush Aleinhers en his( Mr. their,) side of the speech of the Neb'e Lord is that portion Of it in vvideli he
lieuse, e les would'he agt=est the reeht Ilan. B %route. A argues that becauee 1), ii3eit enjoysmuiticipal corporations
roajority of 6 t menileas n mild prh:aps he a small areount if it is, therefooo I,PCCSS;".V to. extend them to Ireland. But,
cuestions of Irish grlcvancvs etc r.• once extinct, but as long as Sir, without referring to l'ruseia. or any (Alter state or kingdom
• they remained unse ilea. and as lung as the pres•mt Govern to which municipal eistitutimis have been conceded, I ‘eould
relit remained failVully devoted to that object. they would be a•lc ties question—which is, after all, the only real point at
style-tact! in power.—( Cheers_ )If this assertion was doubted issue—is it a f lUt that mueiitipal institutions are necessary and
let the question he tried, let Parliament he dissolved, the Op- essential fur the local government of Ireland? That, Sir, is
position parties think that they wonld hate all tl_e Proteztante the question to which we should confine ourselves ; arid, con-
td. Ireland with them ? Let them tool; to the petition troin found and mystify it as we will, we must deal with that ques-
ttelier. signed by 1.000 Prote",tants; let them look to the tion at last. The aseireption of the Noble Lord in his En-•
Petition from Lohaenderry, ellielt foremost as4erted the gin- glish Bill was. thet where corporate. institutions existed be-
rim, of Protestantism, tin' sere !vet of ottlioilexy. Ile hail fore, they shall exist again. Now, Sir, if that principle is so
es'eed the Hon. and Leerned elember for Loieloielerry whir.- excellent, why bad the Noble Lord omitted to adopt it
Bi gene-
''n
the eentimente expresssed itt that petition were not those
led:), in hisis Englisilt ll ? Why Earl lie not extended it to
of time majority of his Protestant cereetittiets? And the Hon. all the erincipal towns in England ? Look at Mancliestee and
Member replied that the cese was so.—( Hear, beer. ) All look at Birminehem—(Cheers)—those great arel flomishiag
these men, then, concurred in asking the' Howe what he tradieg and manufacturing. towns—did they date their impor-
( Mr. Shen and his party called justice to Ireland. The titmice from the ietroduction of the corporate system ? But look
lion. and Learned Recorder for Dribliti bad last night en- still nearer home ; look at the metropolitan boroughs of
toned into a very interesting disreesition PS tii what justice Southwark and Lambeth ; look even at the city in which many
to Ireland really was. The Right Hoe. Gentlemen would of us reside ; look at Nlarylebone and Finsbury, and you will
perhaps Pardon him (Mr. Shiel) if he very reerectfully find them one and all deprived of time blessings of Coreorations,
expressed 'eta wish that the Learned Recorder's name had and that the city of London is the only place in this vest me-
net been to be found in the lists of the Lay Association.— tropolis w-hich enjoys that peculiar favour. The Right Hon.
( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Gentleman Gentleman, the Attorney-General for Ireland, asked last night
knew very well that a civil Bill for the recovery of tithes how is it possible that the great and populous city of Dublin
would lie in big own Court ; and yet the Learned Judge sub- can agree to pool a Corporation to its near neighbour, the
scribes to pay Counsel for the prosecution of that very pro- town of Liver, and yet be deprived of a similar advan-
cese, Ile would ask, was it conducive to the public hie tage ? Now to what does that argument amount? Why,
terests, to the ends of public justice, that a man holding a merely to this, that there is a wish for corporate instite-
high judicial situation, and a Privy Councillor, should rush Lions in some places, and not in others. But, after all,
headlong into this arena of persecution, and hOld out a Sir, the real question before us is this--will the abolition of
premium to any speculating and tratlickiner .attorney who Corporations, according to the plan Proposed by the Mi-
chose to take advantage of it? The 'lion. and nority at this side of the House, and sanctioned by a large
Learned Recorder had concluded his speech by exclaiming, majority of the other branch of Teri Legislature—will that
" Ruat ecelum. fiat justitia." He ( Mr. Shell) supposed that ' abolition at all interfere with the gand efficient local -
" ruat ccelum" meant perish religion, perish humanity ; vernmeot of the towns in Ireland ? Sir,- my opinion is, that
whilst " fiat justitia" should .be consteued, let tithes be no such interference will exist, and that no dang;er need be
levietl.—( Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh !") If he was wrong apprehended in that respect. lam quite aware that the feel-
in attributing that construction to the Hon. and Learned inns of the Irish people are in favour of a continuance of their
Recorder's observations, he was sorry for it. He could only Corporations, or rather their re-construction ; amid 1 should be
assure him that he had stretched his Imagination for the pure the last to disregard the feelings and wishes of any portion of
pose of aiming at its meaning.—( Laughter, and " Oh, oh I") his Majesty's subjects, and more especially those
Sir of
Irishthe Irish
Let, however. those who opposed this measure, now remember people—( Hear,
hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—but, , I wou
two things—that in. so doing, they were raising the question ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite this question : have the exit-
of reforming the House of. Lords in this country, and that tence of corporate bodies in Ireland heretofore conduced• to
of the repeal of the Union in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, and the repose, the bap
sapiness, and tranquillity of
shown that the people
the
of
Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Waterford had-already, in Ireland? Sir, I y, that unless it can be
the course of his speech, pointed the attention of the House of destruction of Corporations in Ireland is incompatible with
Commons in a very remarkable manner in the physical position the good of the Irish people generally, unless it can be proved
of Ireland. It should not be forgotten that on a former occa- that by depriving Ireland of Corporations altogether we de-
sion, when the repeal was agitated, tht Hon. Member threw up
,},rive her of a system which would conduce to her happiness
his seat because he could not pledge himself to support that and welfaree'-then I say prove that, and I will admit at once
proposition. The warning of the Hon. Member, therefore, was that the corporate system ought too eras continued.—( Hear,
of some importance in his eyes, for if they would not take his and cheering.)
But if, on the cty, there is good
(Mr. Sheil's) evidence as an authority, that of the Hon. Member reason to believe that another result would ensue, lam bound,
for Waterford was one which they would not perhaps dispute. on the other hand, to say that it is far better to abolish
'When he considered the great and various faculties, the in- the Corporations altogether, than to make them a medium
trepid and enthusiastic character, and, when in employment, by which discord and agitation may be continued and perpe-
the steady industry of his countrymen—when he considered tuated. I again take the instance of Dublin, and I refer to
all this, and then turned to England as she was described that city as being the most populous and considerable place in
last night in the powerful language of the Noble Lord, the Ireland, and because it has been more strongly dwelt upon by
Secretary for the Home Department; when he looked upon the advocates of Corporate Reform. What,
then, is the Cor-
England high and noble in her acts, advanced in her civilize- poration of Dublin, and what will it be if the Bill of the Noble
tion, elevated in her position, and contemplated what had taken Lord is carried ? Will not the right of administering justice
place leet night, all the glories of antiquity failed and grew be withheld from that Corporation? And why 7- Because
dim before his pereeption._( Cheers. ) Ireland had to thank you, Gentlemen, at the opposite side feel that it cannot be with
this country for the loss of her Parliament and her political safety granted. Did you, by your Bill, give your favourite
independence, ant.' she was told that as a compensation for Corporation of Dublin the power of superintending and con-
all this, her sons weee to be henceforth Britons. Let them, trouliog its p•olice And why has the Noble Lord invested
then, be Britons indeet!... and in truth, for they must be on a_ that controul n the Lord Lieutenant Oh; but no doubt, you
footing with Britons in every respect—they must be (cm- propose to give the Corporation the power of checking and
phatically added the lion, and Learned Member), they controuling the paving, watching, and lighting of the city.
must be your equals.—(Great cheering.) To be your vassals, Noe
framers h ing.
the Youßill withethholdeat that
advocates of C. You, y
porateourselv Roes,
your dependents, to lie is to the Dublin Corporation all right of interference
colonial submission before you, thof , gror-
we never will consent ; and when we are told that in religion, form, deny
in language, and in blood, and in All but country, we are with the administration of justice,
the appointment of Sheriffs
aliens to you—if any men are mad enough to tell us so—thanks and Town Clerks, and all other Corporate rights and pri-
to that power which placed our throbbing hearts within our vileges which bodies similarly appointed enjoy.—(Hear,
breasts, we are not base enough to submit to ouch an insult.— hear, hear.) You will not give them the power of
(Enthusiastic and protracted cheerihg followedthe close of the controuling one solitary watchman, and you also take from
Hon. and Learned Member's speech.) the Corperaticn the right of controul over the port and Isar-
Sir R. PEEL next rose amidst loud cheers. and cries of bout of Dublin. Why, then, I ask you, in the name of reason
" Bar, bar," and " Order," and said :--Mr. Speaker, the and c
on to Dubliommon sense
e,. for what purpose would you gra
ment a C
say,
Hon. Gentleman Gentleman wished to insinuate that since the passing of porat(Gt ing. Allow to
the Reform Bill, I looked on the House of Commons as the that if you appoint a Corporation without the power of exer-
omnipotent power of the State. This I never said nor meant cising the ordinary functions which belong to a body so ap-
to insinuate. I said then, and feel now, that the Government pointed, having no controul and no responsibility, you can ap-
of the country could not be carried on without the concur- ' point them fur no other purpose' than those of a political and
rence of the Meuse cf. Commons ; but I also maintain that it party nature ; and it is not we, but you, who are the enemies
cannot be carried on with collision.—(Cheers.) While I wish of Ireland.—(Reiterated cheers.) I shall not enter into the
to see the Commons powerful Ido not wish to sec them des- question of butter, wares, and the other minor points, which
potic; while I wish to gee the Lards friendly auxiliaries to
other b
s ide,
do not wish to see them relimeuieli their privileges, lay down time on such trifling considerations as the question is one of
their ancient and venerated authority at the shrine of the principle, and not of details. But, Sir, when I heard the
House of Commons, and be looked on as mere instruments speech delivered by the Hon. Member for the county of Meath,
for registering the Acts of this House of Parliament.— I must say that I thought he appeared to forget that admi-
(Loud cheering.) The Han. Member has called out for ruble precept which the Hen. Gentleman the Member for
justice to Ireland, and with all my heart I wish that ; but I North Derbyshire quoted so aptly from his Latin Grammer
retort his demand, I claim equal justice for both breeches of
—( A laugh ) .
our ancient and venerable Constitutiono—(Clicers.) The " Ingenus dedieisse fideliter mutes,
Pion. Gentleman has quoted the authority cf Mr. Canning as Emollet mores ncesint esse feros."
a justification for tlic doctrines he has laid down. But, Sir, ( Renewed laughter.) I repeat, Sir, that I will not enter into
with all respect for the accuracy of the Honourable and the question of etail ; but I ask you, is it for the advocates of
Learned Gentleman, I must be peerniteed to say, that the Ireland with the example of the abuses of the old- Corpora-
whole scope of Mr. Canninir's political theories, the grin- tiunsen this `B
w them
as to
ar desiregued thbeforeat newin this ones shHouse all be con
theceNoble
ded ?
ciples on which he acted, and the declarations which he has Wh
uttered. utterly repudiate such an imputation as that at-
Lord opposite said that it was intended to embrace two ob-
tempted to be fastened on the memory of that distinguished jeets, namely, the abolition of the old Corporations, and their
man, that he considered the power of the House of Commons revival under a new form. Sir, I admitted at that time that,
inconsistent with the co-ordinate powers of the House of as theld Corporations did establish a monopoly of power and
Lords. Mr. Canniotes whole scope of constitutional policy patronage, they oeght to be done away with altogether. - The
was at variance with these upstart an viperous theories of Noble Lord taunted me upon that occasion, and said that I
nullifying one branch of the Legislature, end arming another who complimented the -Geldstniths' Company for having
with little short of omnipotence.—(Cheell.) The Hon. pulled down their old building and erecting a new one on
Gentleman has treated the House with a quoestion from the its site ought to be the first to support this Bill for pull-
:speech of Mr. Canning on the Corn Laws. I giro ilium the ing down the old Corporations of Ireland stet erecting
full benefit of it. It was a suicidal quotation ; for, when them in another form. Sir, I .certainly did compliment that
considered in common with hie object and his subject, it ancient and honourable body for the manner in which they
strikes against - himself.—(Opposition cheers.) Weil, but bad restored and beautified their ancient hall, because that
if the Learned Gentleman used, or, rather, should I say, hall had been the scene of social harmony and good feeling ;
abused, the authority of Mr. Canning, for the purpose of and no doubt I would have said ‘s Yon: have dune right to
distorting truth, I shall quote against him the authority of a build
ts that upon tiie old foundation." But, Sir, I feel considerable
Cporations of the Noble Lord would be
statesman of a kindred school with Mr. Canning—a living doub the new or
authority too—that of an individual with whom I have never any improvement upon the old, and therefore it 'was per-
co-operated, but towards whom I have never used one disre- fectly consistent in me to advise the Noble Lord to abolish
epectful word, or towards whom I have never entertained the old Corporations altogether, but not to erect new ones in
one disrespectful sentiment. -Will others on the Ministerial 'their stead.— ( Cheers.) When I consented to abolish the old
side say the same--I mean Earl Grey ?—( Cheers from the Corporatione, I should not have censented to have done so had
Opposition side.) Earl Grey did not deny the independence I felt, assured that, like the Goldsmiths' Hall, they had emi-
of the House of Commons, but he maintained at the same (laced to the harneney and goof), feeling of the people of Ire-
land.—( Cheers.) Sir, I believe that when the abolition of
time the independence of the house of Lords: neither, lie
maintained, should be sacrificed to the other. First, let me the Irish Corperations was firs op
t prosed, the prop
refer to the conduct of Mr. Canning. '2
-[The Right lion. Twin
agreed to by y gentlemen on the other side or theosal was
House,
- - Coalman repeated the passage from Mr. Canning already who have since thought fit to change their opinions, because
quoted, which stated that as neither of the Bills were objected they were under the influence of what I may call a species of
to by time Lords his proposition to the II ,use of Commons was coercion.—( Loud cheers.) I bold, Sir, in my hand a•let-
such as would not bring them in collision with the Lords, in- ter addressed to Lord Mulgrave, by a person signing him-
eunuch as the principle of the Bills was adopted by the Lords.] self a " Dissatisfied Country Gentleman." That person,
Ido not mean to say that the independence of the Commons whoever lie may happen to be, is no friend of mine, or of the
is to be sacrificed by the Lords, neither did Mr. Canning party with whom I have the honour to act in this House, and
maintain that the Lords should be sacrificed to that of the therefore I the more readily quote his opinions, inasi-nuch
Commons. He merely supported the princiPle that the in- as it cannot be said that I do so from any enmity of
dependence of both should he maintained, and that collision feeling. After
trotskin some severe comments en his Ma-
was to be depreciated.—( Cheers froin the Opposition.) Well, jesty's Governmn at the period when I tial the honour
then, I come next to consider the sentiment uttered by Lord to represent it in this House, the writer goes on to state
Grey. Did his Lordship say he would resign the _House of that Ireland would neeer be pacified until the complete
Lords to the caprice or domination of the House of Corn- extinction of tithes was effected; and then lie lays down three
mans ? Hear what Lord Grey himself says. He is the principlet, embodying his views. F,rst, the revision of Church
Lest interpreter of his own sentiments.—(The quotation from property ; secondly, the disorganization of the Orangemen ;
Lord Grey's speech was strictly in effect this —" 'lle (Lord and, thirdly—now whet will the house think the third prop-
Grey) belonged to a body whose constitutional duty it was, as sition of the " dissatisfied Country Gentlemen" is ?—why, the
it was their inclination, to resist dangerous innovation—they total dadranchiseraent of all
the Corporations in Ireland._
aveuld consider and promote the interest of the people, even (Loud cheers, ) Sir, keeping the arguments of this indivi-
when their conduct would be displeasing to the people, and, dual in view, I would entreat the House to look at the shoe-
above all things, they would not yield to fear. If their Lord- tion of Dublin and of Cork, boar of which cities, although
ships were to 'fie told that, in case .lie present Bill was rejected so favourably situated for the . pposes of trade, commerce,
they would have a worse Bill, they would not he daunted on and agriculture. have been retrogradisig for more than a con_
that account ; above all things they would not yield to iiitimi_ tury past. 'Then let time house turn to Belfast, that great
dation ; and if worse Bills were sent up from the other House emporium of Irish arts and manufactures, awl yet, only fifty
their Lordship would pursue the same course ; they would years ago, Belfast watt only an obscure unsightly viilage.—
censider and amend then, ; and if they could not amend them, I (Cheers.) The Noble Lord cannot say that Belfast has at-
shey would reject :hem; they would, at all events, do their I tained its present eminence and prosperity be means of the
duty :- and should 'oven eolliiion come, his post was taken, and corporate system ; but this would probably be his answer,
with his order he would stand or fall—to the last hour of his "I am afraid that the true reason of tho absence
the
( Loud cheers.) These, Sir, are the opinions of a statesman want of a proper corporate controul," and yet the Nheoblre
e
of great authority—of great authority with any one, and Lord cannot be blind to the
. fact that Bel
doubly so whim lion. Gentlemen opposite. Let them, then, no Corporation worthy of the name over existed, is at
'ponder on these sell:in-lents of the venerable head of their present the most flourishing city in Ireland.—(areat cheer-
party. lie has registered hie solemn declaration that he would 'lug.) No
w,Lord Sir, I will refeI
entertain
a g resPect, n
that branch of the Legislature which it is now sought though we happen to differ in political opinion—l mean Lord
to strike down, withered and lifeless, by a resolution Clotteurry. In that letter the Noble Lord states that lie has
oldie House of Cononons.—( Cheers, and cries of " Hear.") Is been for a long time favourable to the abolitiee of tithes, and
your vaunted justice, and liberty, and toleration come to this ? then he goes oft to say that he should wish to see tire CD:To-
Come to usurpation on the privileiree and just rights of others? rations of Ireland aeolisbed, and that all the local establish.
'lime Hon. Member has been kind" enough, and for this I ten- meths should be governed by Boards of Commissioners, ap-
der him my thanes, to offer me advice ; but unless I see pointed by the Crown, whose head manse should be in Dublin.
' cogent reason for it, I shall not adopt his precept. The Hon. Now, tire Bill of time Noble Lord provides thee the Coin-
Member found it necessary for his defence to reed his own missioners shall be appointed and paid by the Loed Lire-
tenant, and that tilae eliall sit in Dublin. Surely Sir,
• speech at Thurle_s ; but lie was betrayed, by a glance of my
Neele Friend, to read a proof his speech which he. would, after this it cannot fairly be 44j1) that those who oppose the
1 preenme, have otherwise tenitted.—(Some iiiterruption pre- Noble Lord's Bill are actuated by teai Fish to do injustice
vt nteo as front ea:el-nog the c.inciusiini of this sentence, and to Irelaroi, or to insult the peeple of that condign,''
inasmuch
the following.) The Hon. Gentleman said clout he thought as our proposttice was mainly similar to that When. fioeil
from the report of his Speech, according to the vulgate edition, Clawne.urry adeocated.-se‘gseers.) The question, hoivever,
that he avowed there was a compact entered into between the ill Corporate institutions he beneficial to Ireland ? It',
ileverument and his party ; but he then, corrected the pre- Sir, lam to give an •o pinion on them. qeestion, I certainly
suened error by
saying that it was only a contract, and an in- cannot overlook the fact that, comparing Englaed with Ire-
dish liable junction on honourable principles, He furthermore land, there is something in the latter country which is totally
feed ;here errs an alliance bet Ween him and his party on the incompatible with the establishment of Corporate institutions.
en what is it that you convict
one ivied, and the Government on the other. Now, how does fallacy in the precautions
this dint from a compact, the ware which he repudiated e___ we deem it so needful to observe in logyr)slating
;4° of •
for Ireland ?
(cheao "An alliance," said he, " was formed between f YOU eseert that this suspicion on our part of the ill elects of
res on honouruble terms." Now, I defy the Hon. Gentle- the ostablisimont of the new Corporations is as unreasooable
wan, with ell his ingenuity, all his casuists—of which lie -one. You impute our opposition to your measures to a"feel-
ie so apt a Alligter—to show me any other plain-minded ing of antipathy to the Roman Cetholies.—( Hear, from Mr.
lase that an areiseesee or contract on terms is not a compact, a O'Connell. )• You assert that religious bto
e tiy is at the bot-
q, cal pro .
quo
arrangement. Sir, by the Bill of the Noble tom—that we are unwilling to cement the molt between the
•..
..it :t i, provided that the operation of the. Act.of the 9th of thei that we do not hesitate to throw obstael„
Lo '' '
G„ -re IV. shall be extended to twenty-one towns in Ireland. in way of the development of the prosperity of Ireland.
New , lo ere at this side of the House propose to diminish the But I will ask you, have not your own avowals, fully justified
numbe, .4g towns in which this statute shall be enforced? By the distrust we manifest ?—(Hear, hear.) Sir, we think that
,

Lilt

i ► the present circumstances of irelaud. the inactive of civil ,
equality ( vllich is the undotibtAl right of every ctizan of that
e.initry as well as this) does not depend on the formal or no-
minal institutions that may accidentally exit in particular lo-
calities, and maw have more or less analogy to those
of England and -Scotland, but on the well-balanced laws
which affect the whole community—( Hear)—and if
those who lend themselves to the zwit:ttiun of this question
wilt destroy that equality by the partial legislation they sane-
we have a wrfect right to object to that destruction.
believe that Ireland wants repose, and We believe that
t'leso institutions will ensure to her agitation.—( Hear.) Sir,
I do not dissent from the Ministerial measure from any such
f,elings of national prejudice as have b •en suggested as likely
to influence me in this opposition, but on the grounds that,
instead of promotia„a, civil equality amongst the people of Ire-
land, it would divide and distract them by promoting anew
political ascendancy—that, instead of repose, it would inflict
agitation—that, instead of destroying the monopoly of power,
it would re create and establish it— ind in the preseat state
if Ireland it wool I only have the eff.2ct of transferring that
..ovver front a body that is willing to resign to another that is
out too to grasp and wield it fur its exclusive ad-
-(rrie. Right Hon. Baronet sat down amitht loud
„beer,.)

article of the union provides for the preservation of the
Church in Ireland.—(l3ursts of laughter and cheers ) They
had heard the Member for the City of London to-night. tie
had none of the animation which was natural to an insulted
Irishman. No. In the cool languo7e of a philosophic states-
man, he told the House that they had reduced the
question on whiTh the people of England had to determine, to
this—was the House of Lords to be responsible to public opi-
nion. or was it to continue, as at present, to decide the most
important question, according as the caprice, the paltry pre-
judices, the casual majority of its Members, or the national an-
tipathies against an essential ingredient of the national power
might determine ? They had raised that question, and it was
one which the people of England had to decide. As to the
people of Ireland, they never would submit in quiet to your so-
vereignty. There is verge enough for us to agitate, agi-
tate, agitate; until we have organized peaceably and le;;•illy
a power which you cannot resist, for 1 admit we ought to
have join us and we shall have joining us the people of Eng-
land in the cry for justice to Irelanul.—( Loud cheers.) And
having this I defy you to keep from Ireland municipal insti-
tutions. You may delay it. The Noble Lord who suggested
the motion originally sought that delay, and so he ought. It
is human nature for many to hate those whom he injures.—( Oh,
from the Opposition, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
He has injured Ireland, and therefore never can forgive her.
—(Cheers, and , cries of " No, No !") He was the first to
suggest it. lam delighted at it. The suggestion came from
the proper quarter. It has been said, and said truly, that this
Bill offers no compromise to the Lords. That is perfectly
true. It offers a locus penitentice.—(Laughter and cheers).
It does no more. If it compromised the principles of the first
Bill, no man would oppose more than I should the Govern-
ment plan. It is said that there is no understanding, ex-
pressed or implied, between me and the gentlemen acting in
the Government. There is no express understanding be-
tween us ; but there is an implied understanding, that
the very moment they consent to an insult to Ireland,
it would be our duty to oppose them, and we should
do so as vigorously as we should oppose those who
avow their open hostility to our country.—( Hear, hear !)
Why do we support the Government at present? Because
there is no compromise in principle ; because we believe
them to be sincere in their determination to do justice to Ire-
land. We may differ in questions of detail. It is but a ques-
tion of detail whether thirty-twii or fifteen towns shall have
Corporations. These are subjects for discussion. What is
the principle which has been firmly avowed by the King's Go-
vernment, and more especially by two Noble Lords in this
House, who are members of the Cabinet, upon the subject,
and which has been avowed also by my Learned Friend the
Attorney-General for Ireland ? I call him my friend not in
the official sense—not in the sense in which we hear the term's
" My Noble Friend" banded about in this House—( Laughter)--
meaning" My Noble Friend whom I hAe exceedingly—my
Noble Friend who would do all he could to make me odious and
unpopular”—l am proud to call the Attorney-General of Ire-
land my friend—(Cheers)--and to see him allied with a Go-
vernment founded on constitutional principles ; and I was de-
lighted to hear him dwsounce the atrocity of the insult which
has been offered to us. We, therefore, stand upon principle.
We require the same thing to be done for Ireland as that
which has been done for England and for Scotland. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to advert to
the speech of Sir W. Follett, the late Solicitor-General for
England. The late Solicitor-General for England had en-
tered into the details of a Bill which it was evident he had
never read. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman declared
that he was a friend to Ireland. Why, he was a Tory to the
back bone.—( Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet who
said he represented all the sense and piety of the University
of Oxford, nevertheless maintained that corruption in Ireland
ought to go on. He next came to the Hon. Member for
Sandwich, who had paid him (Mr. O'Connell) the compli-
ment of declaring that he did not believe a word he said.
That Hon. Member argued with much apparent solemnity.
Did he know that there was no such mountebank as the grave
man—no man' more • absurd than he who laboured to show
that two and two made four? It was evident, however, that
the Hon. Gentleman considered himself to be the very So-
lomon of intelligence. Passing over minor individuals, he
now came to the Learned Recorder for Dublin. That Hon.
and Learned Gentleman assumed a very manly tone. Yet
lie (Mr. O'Connell) recollected that when the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman offered an insult to Mr. O'Dwyer, the
moment that gentleman retaliated, the Hon. and Learned
Member retracted.—(Loud cries of order, order, and chair,
chair.) That Hon. and Learned Gentleman declared that
there was no corruption in the Corporation of Dublin. He
should be glad to know what the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man called corruption. From the evidence which had been
submitted to a Committee of that House,. it appeared, in the
first instance, that in a charitable institution in Dublin, under
the controul of the Corporation (advised by the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman) for the support of old men and or-
phans, called the Blue Coat Hospital, the income of which
was 1,9001., no less a sum than 9701. was expended in sala-
ries ; leaving only 9201. for the purposes of the charity. Was
not that corruption ? At the bead of the Corporation of Dub-
lin was the Lord Mayor. As the chief magistrate, the Lord
Mayor had an extensive jurisdiction with respect to the adjudi-
cation of fines. That jurisdiction was frequently farmed for a
stipulated sum ; 3501. a year. The Lord Mayor of Dublin was
occasionally President of the Court of Conscience, by which lie
made 1,200/. a year. Now, in Dublin the vicious practice existed
of farming this Court to Aldermen and others—aground of
great abuse. Was not that corruption ? The consequence
of such an arrangement was, that within the last twenty years,
the fees of that Court were nearly doubled. Did the Hon.
and Learned Member (the Recorder of Dublin), the legal
adviser of the Corporation, advise them to remedy these
abuses? If he did, he had not allowed the sun to shine on his
good deeds, for the fact of his having given such advice was
not known. And how did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself obtain the office which lie had the honour to hold ? He
had been but five years at the Bar, and bad had but little 'op-
portunity of distinguishing himself. Yet he was appointed to
a high judicial office in the second city in the empire, with a
salary of 1,500/. a-year. What could have raised him to that
eminence but prejudice and party feeling; and was not that
corruption ? In fact, nothing could be mare corrupt than this
abominable Corporation ; and he was astonished that any man
could stand up to defend it.---(llear, hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was an agitator—a judi-
cial agitator—he combined the two occupations of a Judge
and an agitator. No strength of character could ever
stand against so incongruous a union. He (Mr. O'Connell)
affirmed that in Dublin the practice of packing juries not only
was not reproached, but was sustained. The Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth had talked of the Corporations of Ire-
land as old buildings which had so long been applied to 'bad
uses, that there was no building them up again. But why not
build them up on a better plan? Why not build them tip so
that they should not exclude integrity ? for integrity they
had hitherto excluded—Protestant as well as Catholic. But,
according to the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Protestants
of Ireland would give up nothing that was not wrested
from them. He ( Mr. O'Connell) in stern defiance of that
position, said that they must give up what they ought to
give npi .The claims of Ireland rested on the immutable
principles of 'pike. Either there was a union between
England and Ireland, or there was not. If there was a
union, let Ireland enjoy the benefit of it; if there was no union,
give her back her independent parliament. He thanked the
House of Lords for what they had done. He even asked the
Noble and Leaved Lord for the alien character which be bad
given to the Irish people. The majority of the House of Lords
might chuckle and laugh at what they termed the presumption
of those who demanded justice for Ireland ; but the people
were of a different opinion. The time of collision had arrived.
The House of Lords had taken their ground. He hoped the
House of Commons would that night take theirs. Let the
people of England determine between the parties, and God de-
fend the right !—(The Hon. and Learned Gentleman sat down
amidst loud cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said the lion. and Learned Member for
Kilkenny, who for the twentieth time had commented on ex-
pressions used by a Noble and Learned Lord, which expres-
sions he (Lord Stanley) did not stand up to apologise for, or
defend —( Hear, hear, hear.) He who censured what he was
pleased to call intemperate language—he who had used lan-
guage elsewhere with respect to the House of Lords, and to
the Noble and Learned Lord especially, which he (Lord
Stanley) had heard reportod, but whieh he would not pollute
the ears of an assembly of Geneemen by repeating—( Hear,
hear, hear)—language which no gentleman could have used.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile who had commented on expres-
sions which (Lord Stanley) repo i!ed, he was not there to apo-
logise for, had throughout his spoech on this great and im-
portant question, had recourse to no one argument, reason, or
plausible statement, hut haul made that speech from first to last
one tissue of personal attacks on one lion. Gentleman after an-
other on matters wholly unconnected with the subject ; de-
livered in a tone, temper. and manner so extraordinary, that
he ( Lord Stanley) should think it degrading to himself and
degrading to the House.—( Hear, hear.) He repeated that
he should think it degrading to himself and degrading to the
House, if he were to waste his time and their own in comment-
ing upon them. He would, therefore, leave the speech of the
lion. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, and apply himself
to the speech delivered in a very different tone and manner
by his Noble Friend opposite—( Mr. O'Connell—" Hear.")
It seemed from that cheer that the Honourable and Learded
Member for Kilkenny could not conceive the possibility of the
existence of private friendship where there was political diffe-
rence. Was not that the meaning of the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman's cheer? (Mr. O'Connell said would
give no answer to that question.) He (Lord Stanley)
would apply himself to what his Noble Friend had said
of the operation of the Act of the 9th Geo. IV. They (on
wifloirch watching,li wuiidi,ililotst
the Opposition side) who were going to do away with all local
It gay() upon the most liberal pri
egiopvacir
government,nment, they
fere with the Act 0C 9 (leo. IV. ?
vNi•nh ow
hwaetrenglaoninnegr ttioi4do away with all tp,titl6
etnhte
pdriof.-
W1114:I dlliVcrt that Act tAActindteor;
choliru,staitnudeneptaevsi,nutl:eapnodweorthoefr levyingpurpos ratese
epiples, and to =lSt eXtenied
what was
trouble the House by rocapitulating;l4
Majesty's
fseidreencoer boolotwoHei(tmhsles?Majwositi)y,:shGisovernment and those on that
posed to compel a certain number of towns to adopt the pro-
visions cif the Act of 9 Geo, IV. They (the Opposition)
said, fi we do not quarrel with the Act where we find it, and
so far from wishing to abolish it, we are willing to give, not
to 2.1, but to every town in Ireland, the liberty of adopting it
if they shall think proper."--( Cheers.) But his Noble Friend
said, " Oh, we must have some provisions fqr *lse towns;,
we have adopted some provisions in %hi?, ciise iiig..th(; triilljli
till
Murticiptti 4teti.:l",m, .oill.'aO'ili4 VI Ihe, reason is.(li si,(, iiiiAsi
eerePa' t4P.t in,,n`-' tO Setter en‘s4yea 1/4 tlite Act ot
9 Geo, ;V.!, But they ?tile
~ pposition) provreci Illeir
own 149Vi§ie!Ir After a (eVf other cibs—Matigna upon the
deto off OP =Wale, Ili() Noble Lord continued—l admit
to my Noble Friend oppolite, that there is a wide distinction
in point of principle between us.—(Loud cheers.) I admit

Lord 110 WICK felt it necessary to reply to a portion o
the observations that had fallen front the. Right Hon. Baronet,
lie would not have said a word on tine subject had it,not been
fe• the observations he had made at the outset in eltdanation
of the terms of a speech made some time ago by the lion.
Member for Tipperary: The lion. Baronet had told them
that an alliance upon terms was neither more nor less thin a
contract. He did not think the Right. Hon. Baronet was at
all happy in his definition, but he (Lord Howick) would say
what they all knew perfectly well, that the words " political
compact" meant something dishonourable.—( Laughter, and
cries of " No.") He could, however, solemnly assure the
house that in the support they had obtained from those who
sat at the same side with them (the Ministers) there was no
compact entered into, implied, or expressed, that they should
do any one act at variance with these arinciples which they
had once expressed in that House. He would repeat that
there existed no comnromise whatever on the subject of the
repeal of the Union, and that there was not the slightest ap-
proach to an understanding existing between the parties al-
luded tp.—( Cheers.) But enough on this. The question at
issue was, whether local governments should exist in Ireland
ur not ? or, as his Hon. Friend near him expi•essed it, whether
Ireland should' have local self.government or not ? The Right
Hon. Baronet denied that this was the question : but on what
ground did he rest the assertion ? He had stated two reasons—
fist, beepuse he did not like to impose the regulations of the
9th Geo. IV., on twenty-two towns, whether they liked it or
not ; and, secondly, because Municipal Corporations were not
necessary for good government.—( Sir R. Peel exclaimed " Nu,
no.") Tire [tight Hon. Baronet denied it but he (Lord H.)
would appeal to the House as to the correctness of his quota-
tion. fie had also been surprised to hear him declare that Man-
chester had flourished without a Corporation, whilst Dublin
had retrogaded with one ; but that also *as •a palpable fal-
lacy. The Right Honourable Baronet had said last year that
the municipal institutions of Ireland and England were by no
means analogous ; but he (Lord Howick) had said then that
if Manchester had a Corporation, might it not thrive even
better? Then the Municipal functions were performed in
Manchester by Boards ; but they would act better if per-
formed by complete corporate arrangements. The result
proved that he was correct. He asked the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had the case of Manchester any parity with that of Dub-
lin, where it was proposed to take out of the hands of the
Corporation the administration of 34,0001. per annum, and in-
vest it in Commissioners ? The Noble Lord then alluded to
a letter written by a person named French, and quoted in the
House, respecting the revenue of the Corporation of Cork.
In that letter it was stated that the corn rates were 2,7001.,
the wide street rates 8,0001., and the pipe water rates 1,5001.
per annum. All these sums would be given to the members
and officers of the Corporation, and not to the town, by the
Bill which the Right Hon. Baronet advocated ; for in every
instance the old Corporators were constituted part managers
of these funds, with full power to remunerate all their officers
who possessed vested interests for life. He (Lord Howick)
would ask, what would they think if the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had, at the time the English Corporate Reform Bill
was brought in last year, proposed to allow the managers
of the old Liverpool docks to continue in receipt of the funds
and their salaries, after the Corporation had been virtually
abolished?—(Hear, hear.) The question was simply this—
Whether the large towns in Ireland were to be interfered with
in the management of their own concerns or not ? The Go-
vernment was told that it should not interfere-with the admi-
nistration of justice in Ireland. It did not do so—it especially
refrained from it. He (Lord Howick) needed only refer
the House to what had fallen from the lips of a Noble Lord
in another place, that in legislating for Ireland the House was
legislating for a people three-fourths of whom were alien in
blood, differing in language, differing in religion, and waiting
only for a favourable opportunity of throwing off the British
Government. It did not follow, that if the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet was supposed to concur in that sentiment, that he should
necessarily feel towards them a national antipathy. It would
be quite possible for the conqueror of such a people to pity
them. Perhaps the Right lion Baronet's feeling was analo-
gous. But had he not adopted the opinion that Ireland was
to be governed, not as a free country, but as a conquered
one ?—(" [fear, hear 1" from Mr. O'Connell). What other
construction could be put on his words? Why was he so much
afraid of allowing the people of Ireland to govern themselves?
By legislating on the principle of distrust, ample cause would
be found for it, as well as for fear. The Right Hon. Member
for the University of Dublin had said that all Ireland wanted
was repose. How (lid it happen that Ireland wanted it ? It
was because she was governed as an alien. " England was now
reaping the bitter fruits.—( Cheers.)
Mr. C'CONNELL rose amidst• loud cries of " Divide."
Ile might have an appeal to make to the people of England,
and he could not with propriety make that appeal to them
without having first tried what be could do with that House.—
( Hear, hear.) He was the advocate there for his country,
and he thought, it his duty to make his appeal to them in the
first instance. He might be sneered at, but he did demand
justice for Ireland.—(Faint laughter from the Opposition
benches, and great cheering from the Ministerial side of the
[louse.) Ireland was in that situation that they might pre-
sume to sneer at her; but he would tell them that they ought
to dare to sneer when justice we; demanded.—( Loud cheers.)
Scotland bad had her Municipal Corporations reformed—Eng-
land had had her Municipal Corporations reformed and pre-
served; and yet they presumed to refuse the same measure of
justice to Ireland. What cared he what pretences they made.
(Tremendous cheers.) He cared for none of their pretences
—he had the fact. He really pitied the Right Hon. Baronet.
—( Laughter and Cheers.) He had not received one cheer
from all his Noble and Hon. Friends who remained around
him.—( Hear. ) Ile had given them a speech, it was true;
'had pronounced a discourse at least as applicable for resisting
the English Corporate Reform Bill as the Irish.—(Cheers.)
\Viry did he not pronounce that speech last year?—('Loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches.) No ! He knew bet-
ter than to insult the English people. if he had done so,
there would have been very little chance of his restoration to
office. It was an advantage to destroy the nuisance of the
existing Corporations. That was what the Hon. Member
fur Donegal said. But when you have destroyed these Cor-
porations, and have swept away every vestige of these
nuisances, and then tell us that we have no materials for re-
constructing them, do you not make a direct contrast between
us and the people of Scotland and of England, and that to
their preference and to our degradation ? Collision, Sir, is
come. This House has refused to assent to that degradation :
the House of Lords have determined that we shall be de-
graded.—( Hear, hear.) It was said, during the debate
on the Reform Bill, and was repeated over and over
again. that as soon as the House was reformed, that in.
sinet it would seek a quarrel with the House of Lords. The
opponents of that measure founded their opposition upon the
- apprehensions they entertained from the great infusion into
this'llouse of , the democratic principle which it would neces-
sarily occasion ; and they contended that the representatives
of the democracy of England would seek a collision with the
Lords, and make another organic change or revolution neces.
s:try. That prophecy has been falsified —(Cheers.) This
House leas sought no collision with the Lords.—(Great
cheers. ) This House has been forbearing.—( Cheers.) It
has been exhibiting somewhat of timidity, and accordingly the
Lords have been insulting, by daring us to the conflict.—
( Cheers.) The House of Lords have thought fit to declare
that we are not worthy or competent to manage our own af-
s. That is their declaration. They have accordingly
altered the Bill. They have substituted for the Corporations
the Commissioners who have been so much talked of ; but
they have taken care to preserve the vicious portion of the pre-
sent Corporations; for the House has yet
.to learn that these
persons, these mayors and aldermen, and common councilmen,
and sheriffs; in the different Corporations in Ireland, from the
Ist Jan. next, for the entire space of their lives, become trus-
tees of every charity in Ireland.—(" No, no.")
Yes ; I say
yes, I can read it.—( Cries of " Read.") But why should I
enter into these details?—( Cheers.) I don't want details for
any argument. I make you a present of them.—(Laughter
and cheers. and cries of " Order.") Let gentlemen read the
-Bill ; but I believe there are some who don't know how to
rend—( Laughter)—acid yet, Sir, there cannot be the least
doubt that this alteration was put distinctly upon the most in-
sulting ground.- ( Hear, and great confusion, and cries. of
Bar, bar.") Shall Ibe told, have I heard any man say,
that tine Irish were aliens in blood, aliens in language, aliens
in religion? If there any man who can have the unparalleled
audacity to Of'
that language? and if
to have the un deny that he said so?—
paraNeled meanness to so, is yet base enough
(Tremereloua cheers.) hat I pare not whether he denies it
or not ; I heard it with my ow
n 4 n ears-a( Renewed cheers)—
a am surrounded by five-and-twenty others who hoard it
also.—( (-3a;oieeed cheering.) That is a specimen of yotir
lordly logiartion for Irclatid.-aai peers.)c Some indeed sup-
psis that I employed this persoa to Rasist me in...agitation.—
( Laughter.) If I had hired him for that puspole ho could riot
waved me better.—( Laughter.) But I can assure the
House that 1. 1,4 not the least hand in getting him to make
that speech.-_( Loud latiali;fl.•) I was exceedingly obliged
to him.—( Laughter.) There was no cant, 110 hypooril, no
plausible pretext in the making of that spoN,rl,_,,( Lend
cheers.) Ile, at leant, wag open and pl4iri in hit rfietniing.
tie intended an insult, and he gave It.—(Cheers.) He did
nut say " No, we never advised it." But when others are
pressed upon this point, and asked " Do you adopt this lan.
?"
etjage.-ado you recognise these .then the_ tall-
ow tt
wctn,, answer in this [louse for what may have
been sand claew4ele,
.vre alicv jeaFlea iq O A one
House, to quarrel witli 'the IpararlrPt leader in the 'other.
We do'nt like indiscretion ; but we are tog disereet tq disavow
it liaaa,"—‘ Laughter and loud cheers.) Ana yet that is the
foundation upon which this
aaa_alation pipe, They
" legislate upon that ground for Ireland ;" and then they tell
me, with some little degree of plausibility, that the fifth