The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-20 00:00:00

of strong feelings)—I will not, my Lords, submit to be thus inter.
rupted by the Noble and Learned Lord.—( lenewed cries of " Order,
order.") I sat down, my Lords, thinking the Noble and Learned Lord
wished to speak to order. The Noble and Learned Lord did not
avail himself of the opportunity I afforded to him, but, on the contrary
when I got up again the Noble and Learned Lord interrupted me. I
contend, my Lords, that according to the usages of your Lordships'
House the Noble and Learned Lord was not justified in interrupting
me, unless for the purpose of speaking to order. But I presume the
Noble and Learned has never put into the mouth of any of your Lord-
ships a word which you had not uttered. The Noble Marquis then
proceeded to say that what the Noble and Learned Lord had said was
that the cause of the Queen of Spain was a failure, but he had not thought
fit to tell their Lordships in what that failure consisted; and from
the observations which he had made one would be led to sup-
pose that something decisive had happened in Spain—that the
arms of Don Carlos had been triumphant—that not only
had Don :Carlos descended into the plains, but that he had
never been compelled again to take refuge in the mountains. The fact
was, that although the Noble and Learned Lord had spoken with an air
of prophecy, be had merely retailed to their Lordships that night what
he had collected from the proceedings in another place.—(Hear.) What
the Noble and Learned Lord had declared to their Lordships was not a
little extraordinary. He told them first that their policy had failed,
but what were the grounds on which the Noble and Lammed Lord had
asserted that the policy of the Queen's Ministers had failed in the cause
of Spain, or that Don Carlos was not at this moment in possession of
Upper Arragon ? Would the Noble and Learned Lord condescend to
name a single place worthy of note or consideration in Upper Arragon
which was now occupied by the Carlists. The Noble and Learned
Lord had so far profited by his absence from legal pursuits, as to be
enabled to devote his time to the study of military affairs, and
now he could not only describe Spain by the map, but
tell their Lordships theoretically what the military operations in
that country ought to have been, and how the war should have been
carried on. Now, how stood the fact ? Why, that, so far from being
in possession of any considerable town or place in that province, Don
Carlos only occupied the inconsiderable fortress of Morella. This he as-
serted to be the case ; but was the success of Don Carlos greater in any
other province ? How many great municipalities or towns in Spain
did Don Carlow now possess ? Were they not all in the hands of the
Christinos ;-and yet, although Don Carlos had no great municipalities or
towns in his possession, although he was confined to the mountains,
from which he came down to levy predatory contributions, still this the
Noble and Learned Lord called a successful, a glorious termination of
the contest. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) did not pretend to say
that the Queen of Spain had undisputed possession of her dominions,
for she had not, and he regretted it, but this he would say, that as far as
public opinion in that country had been declared it was clearly in her
favour.—(" No, no," and " Hear, hear.") It was true that the war
was protracted in the North of Spain in the way in which war had
often before been protracted in that country, but this war did not excite
wonder in the mind of any one who knew how difficult a thing it was
to bring a war to a termination which was caused by a diversity of opi.
nions, and a variety of rights, whirls it was all but impossible to accom.
modate.—(Hear.) Every thing which Don Carlos had attempted had
proved either a partial or a decided failure, and this was one reason why
those who wished ill to the cause of the Queen of Spain should censure
the conduct of the British Legion.—(Hear.) For his own part he
could not help thinking that the British Legion must have materially
damaged the cause of Don Carlos, and that this it was that had sub-
jected that body to so many atteeks and so much censure both in that and
the other House of Parliament. He was a party to the policy which
had led to the sending out of the British Legion to Spain, and if
the Noble and Learned Lord had consulted history he would find that
at the best periods of the history of this country British subjects ht d
been allowed to engage in foreign wars where the question at issue com-
bined with national policy, national advantage, and national feeling.—
(Hear.) The Noble Marquis who had brought the subject forward had
treated with contempt the policy of effecting the greatest good with the
smallest means. That policy he had designated as miserable and pedd.
ling, and it would therefore seem as if his opinion were that the only
policy which was right was that which obtained the smallest good at the
greatest expense. That was not the policy which her Majesty's Go-
vernment would pursue, and the historical recollections of the Noble and
Learned Lord ought to have suggested to him that the balance of power
in Europe had often been preserved by such miserable and peddling ser-
vices as had been rendered by this country to the cause of the Queen of
Spain. The policy, however, which had been so much condemned was
adopted in concurrence with France; but then the Noble and Learned
Lord asserted that the King of the French had not followed out this
policy. It was true, as the Noble and Learned Lord had stated,
that the Quadruple Treaty bound the two countries to one action with
regard to Spain, but it at the same time left it open to each to adopt
their own particular measures for prosecuting the obligation into which
both had entered. Whether France had used her best means to fulfil
her part of the treaty he was not called upon to give any opinion ; but
that the King of the French had violated it he most distinctly and un-
equivocally denied. Now, what was the result to which the Quadruple
Treaty had led ? Why that the affairs of the Peninsula were more free
from danger, whether internally or externally, than they would other-
wise have been.—(Hear, hear.) It would have been most unwise to
have left the factions which uniortunately existed in Spain to fight their
own Lattle out. The contest, he admitted, had proceeded too far al.
ready, but still he thought the presence of the British had a most
beneficial effect in restraining one party from the commission
of horrors to the same extent as they had been perpetrated by
the other.—(Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) It had been said that
her Majesty's Ministers had interfered merely in favour of
a popular Constitution, but this he utterly denied. They had interfered
for the purpose of supporting the Government of the Queen of Spain in
a crisis of danger, and only with a view of preserving order and tran.
quillity in that country. So far from wishing to see any portion of the
Spanish people deprived of their privileges, her Majesty's Government
had lost no opportunity of recommending to the Spanish Government
the continuance of the privileges which the people of Spain had en-
joyed.—(Hear, hear.) The fact, however, was that Don Carlos had
made that the basis of his pretensions to the Crown of Spain which he
had 110 tight to do, and the consequence was that he was supported by
many who imagined they were not fighting for him, but contending
for their own privileges. If the Noble and Learned Lord who professed
himself so well acquainted with the state of Spain were to snake the
inquiry he would find that this was the feeling which actuated the Bis-
cayans and Guipuscoans ; and, if he were in possession of any other in-
formation, all he (Lord Lansdowne) could say was, that it was very dif-
ferent from that which had reached him or her Majesty's Government.
It was not, lie assured their Lordships, against the privileges of any
position of the people of Spain, or on behalf of any particular Constitution,
that they had waged war, but merely to ensure peace and tran.
quillity to that country, and to establish the Government of it
on something like a sure and satisfactory foundation. The unjust
pretensions of Don Carlos had led to atrocities which had been rust
by corresponding inhumanity on the other side; but still no such
atrocities had been perpetrated by the Christinos as those which had
marked the career of Don Carlos. The Christinos, he was happy to
say, had not inhumanly butchered prisoners taken in the field of
battle and sacrificed them in cold blood.—(Hear, hear.) He knew
that such acts as these could not but produce retaliation on the other
side; but still that retaliation had fallen far short of the provocation,
and he could say with truth, that on all occasions the convention of
the Noble Duke, which was called Lord Eliot's convention, had been
acted up to in spirit, as far as that was possible, by the Spanish Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) The conduct of the Government might well
be contrasted, as far as humanity was concerned, with that pursued
by Don Carlos ; and he only trusted that the war in Spain would ter-
minate in a very different manner from that which the Noble and
Learned Lord had predicted.—(Hear.)

Lord LYNDHURST, in explanation, said that when he spoke of
catastrophe he used it in reference to the British Legion, which he said
had turned out a complete failure. The Noble Marquis had misunder-
stood another part of what had fallen from him ; for what he said was
that Don Carlos was in the whole possession of Valencia, and that he
also occupied the rural districts of Catalonia, and of Upper Arragon.
—(Cries of" No, no," from the Ministerial side of the House.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said—My Lords, having addressed
you so frequently on this subject on former occasions, I would not rise
to take part in this discussion if I were not led to believe that some
of your Lordships arc desirous of taking my opinion as to the
present situation of this question; and I confess that some remarks
have fallen from the Noble Lords opposite, in the course of the de-
bate, on which I feel it necessary to make a few observations. My
Lords, the Noble Marquis has stated, and stated very fully, that it
would be desirable to avoid any interference on the part of foreign
Powers in the contest now carrying on between the two parties existing
in Spain, and I am willing to admit to the Noble Marquis that, in point
of fact, the interference on the part of Foreign Powers in the affairs of
that country which has taken place, has tended only to exasperate the
parties, and render more dreadful and fatal their violence, disputes, and
dissensions.—(Hear.) My Lords, I will not refer back to the question
of the disputed succession to the Crown of Spain, as I am perfectly aware,
as the Noble Viscount at the head of her Majesty's Government has
stated, that her Majesty's present servants have nothing whatever to say
to that question—that it is a question, in short, with which the Go.
vernment of this country can have nothing whatever to do.—(Hear.)
My Lords, at the time I deprecated such interference.—(Hear, hear )
I objected, my Lords, to all interference on the part of this
country in the affairs of Spain on this identical ground; and
I said, moreover, my Lords, that we ought not to interfere, more par-
ticularly in a cause which had arisen out of those extreme opinions—
that we ought not to have interfered at all, but most particularly that we
ought not to have interfered in a cause which, according to the invaria-
ble practice of all Governments in this country, did not justify our in-
terference ; and even the policy pursued by the Noble Lords opposite
themselves in other matters shows that they cught not to have inter.
fered in aquestion which ad wholly resulted from extreme opinions.—
(Hear.) We might have had some right, or, at all events, some pretext,
for doing so if any other party in Europe had taken the side of Don
Carlos.—(Hear.) But such had not been the case; there was no such
thing.—(" Hear," from Lord Holland.) The Noble Baron cheers; but
I say, and repeat, that no Power in Europe espoused his cause at that
time. I say that at the time when Don Carlos left this country for
Spain in the year 1834, there were not three battalions of the Spanish
troops in his favour—(Hear, hear)—while there were no fewer than
from forty to forty-five posts in possession of the Queen's forces; but
up to the year 1835, and to that period when the convention which was
negotiated by Lord Eliot took place—i. e., between the summer of 1834
and the commencement of 1835—Don Carlos had become so strong as
to force Isis enemies to abandon all their fortified posts, and to take
up a position on the right of the Ebro. —(hear, hear.) This, I say, is
the true state of the case—(Hear, hear)—and I say, then, that the
business of her Majesty's Government, even according to the Noble
Marquis's (Lansdowne) own principles—(Cheers)—and seeing the state
to which the contest was brought, and the moral influence we had
acquired in Spain by means of the Eliot convention, was to have avoided
entering into the contest, and to have endeavoured to support
the influence we had obtained—(Continued cheers)—for by such
policy we should have largely contributed to bring about
results which' must have been most favourable even to the
establishment of that very party which it was the object of the
Government to see established.—(Cheers.) The Legion had been a
complete failure.—(Cheers.) Although at the time it went out the
Queen's army had passed to the right side of the Ebro, yet the Biscayan
provinces were in her power as well as Navarre. In spite, however, of
this advantage, she could not, it seems, carry on the war without a supply
of arms and 10,000 men from England.—(Hear) Arms it was natural
she might be in need of; but men she surely could not want. What
Spaniards ask for 10,000 men from England, when Don Carlos was
only among the mountains?—(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) No;
the real object was to bring the red-coats and the blue-coats—the
French and the English—into the contest—(Hear, hear)—the object
was to produce a foreign effect.—(Cheers.) The country of Spain is
at this moment in the same condition in which it was in 1835—(Hear)
—and I strongly advise the Noble Viscount opposite (Melbourne) to
take up a clear, open, and honourable course of neutrality—(Loud
cheers)--and to see what could be effected by the adoption of such a
system of policy.—(Hear, hear.) Of what avail was it to keep posses-
sion of Passages and the north coast of Spain ? If the Government
abandoned Passages, and Don Carlos were to take possession of it the
very next day, there was nothing to prevent them from communicating
with the Christino Government by Santander, Bilboa, and Santona.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") In our present position we are in the situa-
tion of a party to the contest—(Hear, hear)—whereas our real position
ought to be one of strict neutrality—(Hear, hear)—one in which we
could exert a fair influence over both parties, and use all our exertions
to bring this unhappy contest to a close.—(Cheers.) In conclusion,
I have only to say that I have entered into the discussion of this ques-
tion with a desire to see the objects of the Government accomplished,
viz., to see peace established in the Peninsula—(Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial bench)--under any reasonable system that will provide for
the security of thefueres and privileges of the northern provinces, that
will put an end to the inhuman cruelties that have been practised,
and that will terminate this miserable civil war, of which the details
have been so distressing and ,o terrible. ("f[le Nobo Duke sues loudly
cheered on resuming his seat.)
The Earl of MINTO said that the neutral course of policy alluded t o