The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

,O DON, WEDNESLPAY EVENING, APRIL 20, 183!

Eirl in particular. Their Lordships must be aware that
.wing to the rapidity with which a journal like the Times
must he printed, and the multiplicity of articles which
~cessarily found their way into it, it was almost ;nines-
-ible for him, using every diligence in his power, to peruse
very separate paragraph which appeared in the paper.
The paragraph, of which their Lordships complained, hail
found its way inadvertently into the paper, and he had
only to repeat his deep regret that it had done so.
Mr. Lawson was again ordered to withdraw, hut shortly
Irterwards was recalled to the bar, when several questibns
sere put to hiM by several of their Lordships, throUgh
Lord Chancellor. He was asked, whether he had the
-iipreme control of the paper of which he was the printer?
He replied that he had not. He was then asked, if he
knew who had? He replied thatie considered himself to
he holding a confidential situation in.& Times newspaper
office, and that he therefore could not answer that question
without a breach of trust to his employers, and a loss of
eharicter to himself.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then infwmed Mr. Law-
-on that he was not bound to answer any questions unless
he pleased. It would he enough for him. to state to their
Lordships that be declined answering any question to
which he had an objection. At the same time be must
inform him that their Lordships would. form their own
opinions as td his reasons for not answering such ques-
tions as might be put to him. Was he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) to understand that he (Mr. Lawson) declined to
answer the last question ? .

Mr. Lawson—Certainly.
A NOBLE Loan then asked whether a gentleman whose
name he mentioned was not the editor of the Times news-
paper.

Mr. Lawsc;n replied that this was only another mode of
putting to him the last question; and therefore, with all
respect to their Lordships, he must decline giving any an-
'weer to it.

Mr. Lawson was then asked whether he was the person
whose name was entered as the printer at the Stamp-
office. His reply was in the affirmative. Certain ques-
tions were then put to him respecting the proprietors of
the paper, whose names were entered at. the Stamp office;
but his reply was that he did not know who they.were.—
He was then ordered to withdraw.

Lord WYNFORD then moved, "That John Joseph
Lawson, having admived himself to be the printer of a
false and scaudalous libel, which had appeared in the
Times n• wepaper of the 16th instant, be committed ,to
Newgate during the pleasure of the House, and that he also
pay a fine of 1001, as a penalty for publishing the afore-
said libel."

The motion was resisted by the Lord Chancellor, the
Duke of Wellington, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and Earl
Grey. The House Was about to divide on.the motion,
when, on the amendment of a Noble Lord, it was carried,
that Mr. Lawson should be committed to the custody of
the Usher of the Black Rod, and that he do attend their
Lordships to-morrow morning at ten of the clock.
The determinatiOn of their Lordships was then commu-
nicated to Mr. Lawson, who was conveyed, in the custody
of two messengers of the House of Lords, to Oliver's
Coffee-house, where he now remkins.]
It is obvious that we cannot vouch for the exact correct-
ness of all the pwsages within brackets.

!fa state on-this subject ; but he might observe, that he
tnsilered Ie principle of separation to be one of very
t'anca in different points of view. The late
Administration had perceived that circumstance, and had
eluded the principle to a certain extent." It had been
I,temed expedient by the present qwernment to carry the
:niticiple still further, and it had therefore been carried
e:tosiderably further by the present Bill as it now stood.
One very great advantage of this separation was, that it
would remove all-doubts as to the amount which was re-
'juired for the personal expenses of the Sovereign and
household. By this means that matter would be left
efear and open, instead of being left in that state of doubt
ion; obscurity-, which afforded an opportunity for such
,nisrepresentation, and often occasioned it. It had on many
cTeasions been stated, that the expenditure ha I been much
larger under that head than the sum allowed by Parlia-
or,nt. But the effect of this distinction would be, that
any snisapprehensioni of this kind would be prevented ;
,a(1 when the amount of pensions to be allowed out of
this list of 510,000/. should be reduced to the proposed
~um of '75,0001.,. that could hardly ba considered at all
too much. Another great advantage of this extensive
sep*tion would be, that a. very considerable portion of
mow), which hail been to a. certain extent withdrawn
regislaa- and ordinary. review 'O6 Podia me 'would
•
now e constantly kept under its review, and subject to
controul. This would he a consequence of the utmost int-
oortanc.s, and it was *chiefly on that'-groUnd that the
Government had been anxious to make the separation and
distribution as clear and extensive as possible. By this means
no less a sum than 55q,415/. would now be brought in
the ordinary and regular way under the controul of Parlia-
ment, instekd of the 114.440/ proposed to be so brought by
the late Government. There was one other point about
which he was desirous to say a word. It might be said,
perhaps, that the reduction to be made in the. Pension List
of from 155,000/, to '75,000/. ought to he made at once.
To be sure, as these pensions were granted only during the
lives of the Kings granting them, they might have been so
reduced, and the step would have been legal : but then it
could hardly be said that such a step would be just or
equitable. Although these pensions could in law be con-
sidered as grants for the'King's life, yet the practice had
been to continue them ; and whether they hid been pro-
perly granted or'not—and certainly they had sometimes
been granted with disgusting carelessness and lavishness—
it was still expedient that they should not he at once re-
duced. There certainly would not only be great hard-
ship, but also something like injustice, in cutting off at
once a source of income which had so long been invariably
eunsidered as an income for the life of the grantee. The
general understanding was, that these pensions were
granted not merely for the life of the King who granted
en', but for the lives of those to whom they were given ;
and it was better that the public should suffer a little for
a short time, than that his Majesty should at once be
placed in a worse situation than his father and brother,
and should be exposed to the imputation of being guilty of
injustice. These were the inducements which led his Ma-
jesty's Government to allow the pensions to he reduced
gradually ; and although the saving to the public would
tie little at present, jt would eventually be considerable.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that as he under.
stood the case, the original intention of the Civil List was
to enable the King to pay all the expences of the Civil
Government, and the Royal Household. For this pur-
pose it was customary, till the time of George 11., to
grant taxes, out of which the King might defray the ex-
pellees of the Civil Government, and he actually did so.
The Crown had enjoyed great dignity. as long as that was
in practice ; hut it nevertheless had beau departed from at
the ecmmeneemeut of the reign of George 111. ; since
which time there had been still further alterations. From
accounts that he had seen of the expendittire in the time
of George 11., he thought that they• must then have
amounted to more than those which were at present
incurred, notwithstanding the vast increase that bad taken
place of late years—notwithstanding the increase of sala-
ries arising from the abolition of fees—notwithstanding
.Izeisucre,be of -the salaries of the Judges, in considera-
tion of the greater abilities .ntl talents that they possessed,
and the depi ivation of offices of which they had formerly
held the patronage—and notwithstanding the great in-
to
crease
there was also the hereditary revenue of the Crown,
at
Ol l 711: e whomal allowance aline' el ofhPe,.. rplrita'-
vcri
de
ea
le
ft,:fr.thenßutoyianl Faadndiiitlyio......n
amounted to 850,0001. a year, and
observed,
)vv,,hhti
slaeii
tecreilvi
them. As, however, he had already
i n
1815 :
bllwas:e ealoneabnosegoilesnideic much
neeitilaoiry
itheient 9
.Ic: iatiinhgge' se s asincrease
ical ;et:
uoet
taken
.kt,oehfne i
triieplaceLordships
ch;
a charger
gnet:i
scfee,rreeedrtation
tehxepenceoesnsolitiadvaitnegd
Fund, whit, others .tt ere voted on estimate by
°ant ttlillaet transferred
Parliament. But what were thotie expellees ? They
were uncertain expellees ; and the object of bringing them
under an annual vote was to avoid the incurring of any
debt by which the Civil List itself would be brought under
Civil List isbt
ben
nok
the discussion of Parliament. The. late Government had
made a still further departure, and they did it on this plin-
doe :—Whenever a portion of the salaries was paid out
of the Consolidated Fund and a portion out of the Civil
List, they proposed to transfer the whole to the Consoli-
dated Fund. This was in particular proposed with re-
specttth that a
all
i l there
the
great was groundofficei s forof
State complaint,
were
to the Judges, the Lord, chancellor, and the Speaker
of 'he House of Commons. . In the plan now proposed,
t'l vio7heeleiviteltre'pwelieisd hutehnoltnufdoghr their salaries on an annual vote of
supply; and he therefore felt sure that, on consideration,
the Noble Earl would take steps to place those salaries on
the Consolidated Fund at least.. At the time of the revo-
lution, there had been long discussions on the hereditary
,revenues of the Crdwn ; but no one dreamt of separatinc,
the Crown from the Civil Government. The present
proposal was one of modern invention ; and he did not
think that the MiniSters of the Crown. ought to be placed 1
in a situation by which,' at, one vote of a Committee of
:::;
supply, they might be deprived of a portion of their sale., y :
___(ftear, hear.), , n
With respect to the Board of orks,
he objected to that being placed in
the
same.
situation,
for
as it brought the Royal residenc( s along with it, he thought
that it was not desirable to subinit the repairs amid arrange-
ilwnts
of them (after a fixed 'sum had been voted for them)
to the annual scrutiny of the Parliament. With respect
for though there might
be seme
to what the Noble Earl had c lid in defence of the pension
list, be entirely agreed with him;
on that list unknown to him, he would
venture
that, in most instances, lie could state the
reason for the granting of the pension to have been on
account or services done to the Crown of this country.
Te,os -of his own relations were on that list : one had been
placed en it after the battle of Salamanca, and the other
i rli-Ige
hailtlid bneoetokpnloeans•,edtitlol
granteiglit yearsht,se
graciouspaaffetneeiitst:ila as' 'it;
fs:bfvuotVitui airltittettt'i I,wh:teato.uKbladd saybe e
ntlia,itholw.ienfelit)ysl
e proudSovereign,
conf:i,
gt Ini e,
that though Parliament might take away, he would never
resirn.—(Hear, Lear, hear.) After all, the difference be-
tween the amount of this Civil List and that which wis
proposed lay the late Government was very small ; nor did
choiceAod itolri,a had
o been
particular,
office
flite _t
he think that in the offices that were to be, abolished the
Lonfuislown.oul
judicious.te thought that on the abolish-
ment respeot to the Civil List
unlesswould the
et
pit: t,roson. s
who
of that
they were ruined. Suchlildwasig
of salaries, he believed that it was generally admitted that
Mr. Perceval, and Mr. Canning
4vvbiethforuenspdet,thatot the
Civil
lctLioisnt
Le himself had had the office of proposing it
ph;:e•foanpte:lB4 i enihngauda'ittlhal
office.
. C anAnitnitgi
'S
yet, fnililihhois beenif'aadctnotorious,
Mrtheire'i. large
3e
llatter
r fortunes
provisionLPoc
riaftdost case
ruined by being in
ships found on the table a • ble a minute from the Treasury,
• directing the reduction . '
of the salaries of all the officers of
the Government. Anybody who knew anything of these
matters must be aware that the first year's salary of an
State Officer of was absorbed in his re-election, patent,
and other incidental expences.Viscount GoDERII.
adnaitte4 that considerable ex-
pense was attached to Ole high offices of State, the details
of which, though' they could nut be enumerated, were
well known to
those
who were connected with those offices.
Yet he could -not help' thinking that it be
after cutting down the - salaries of the lower offices, if they
did not act in the same 'Wu towards the higher stations.
If he were able to admit
that there was anything in this
arrangement cal
join the ~,ove colated to degrade the Crown, he would
-'4 ! I Duke in raising his voice : lie could not,
however, see that it. it
Was a any such effect was 'likely to arise from
mistake to suppose, that in the reign oh
George 111. and
George
IV. the great offices of the. State
were altogether connected with the Crown : it was true
that part of th • en. salaries was received from the Civil List,