The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-16 00:00:00

ROUSE OF LORDS, .2VLIRen 15.

cause he remembered that the new system when it was first
proposed, excited the attention of the
.aleegy of Ireland, lied
in answer to jhe elergs, of his coign diocese; the ri-hiSt Itev.
Prelate stated that in his opinion no one description of school
would be capable of answering all classes of the people ;
and that the rector of each parish would be the best judge of
what system would hest suit those over whom be was placed,
and that he did not suppose that the national schools would
supersede those of a scriptural class which. had already been
established. If the Most Reverend prelate had found,
from his experience of four years, that this new system
was the best plan that could be adopted, it would be perfectly
consistent in him to come forward and State that his experience
had led him to alter his opinion. The mode contemplated
by the Commissioner; was that they should have 5,000
schoolmasters in Ireland, and that they should educate the
great mass of the population, but he oatild not els, 13-At
they could provide for the instruction of so many schools.
In that Report there was a total absence of every thing in
allusion to religion; and as far as the document went, they
might all be Atheists. In fact, he felt assured . that there
was not the slightest security for religous knowledge.
: of
He believed it was the first time that the people
this country had ever been led to understand that the
principles of morality could be taught by those who
were averse to the principles of religion. Hear.
In looking at the grounds upon which these Commissioners
demanded a large addition to their funds, and a public- exten-
sion of their powers, they alleged that the system had been
generally approved of by all persuasions in that country.ld
Among other statements was one that 140 clergymen of the
Established Church, and 1,379 Roman Catholic clergymen, had
given in their adhesion. Now, he had taken the pains to inquire
and it appeared from a return, which had been obtained with
great difficulty at the end or ast Session, that the fact was,
only eighty Protestant clergymen had applied for aid, but as
some had applied for several schools, they were reckoned over
as so many distinct individuals.e—( Hear, hear.) He repeated,
then, that that statement was not only not founded in fact, but
contrary to it. One of the main objects •of the system
was stated to be to unite children in education of different re-
ligious denoninations, and to obtain the co-operation of the
resident clergymen. He had since ascertained that several
of the clergymen of the Established Church included in the list
of 140, and which he had reduced to 80, would from a variety
of circumstances, be further dwindled down to 40, if their Lord-
ships would only grant the Committee, which he had taken the
liberty to move, for he would show that many of the individuals
named in the Commissioners' Report were either not to be
found, or had no longer any connection with the Established
Church. The Right Rev. Prelate here proceeded to. give
instances of the names of 'clergymen being put down in
the Report, who were actually not in existence at all.
The names of others had been put down as having
applied for --grants for schools, who had publicly come
forward, and stated that they had
,never matle any application
to the Commissioners. The number of Presbyterian ap-
plicants was stated at 180, although the fact was the real num-
ber was only 80. The mis-statements, as he must call them,
were the more important, because in them was founded their
claim for further grants and powers—because they built upon
these misrepresentations the statement that their system
was generally received and approved of in Ireland. He hoped
their Lordships would not further sanction this imposition.
Of the 1,106 schools in operation 713 were applied for by
Roman Catholics, and only 19 by Protestants, and although
the former had received 5,5251. for building schools, the
latter had received from the Commissioners, for this purpose,
nothing.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") The Right
Reverend Prelate entered into some further calculations
of the comparative amount of funds granted for different edu-
cational purposes to the two religions. It might be said that
this was a proof that the system was more approved by one
party than the other.—( Cheers.) He was not surprised at
that cheer, but he (the Bishop of Exeter) understood that
the system was one which was approved of, and would
be very beneficial to all parties.—( Opposition cheers.)
He honoured the Clergy of Ireland for their determination, in
spite of the persecution to which they were subjected, for hav-
ing, whether mistakenly or not, from conscientious religious
motives, refused to give their sanction to the present system.
There was one objection he must beg leave to refer to. It
appeared by a return made to their Lordships, that, of the
number of schools in operation twenty-fovr were under the
superintendence of nunneries, monasteries, or other religious
bodies, and that these schools had received more aid from the
Board than all the aid given to the applications from the pa-
rochial clergy of the Established Church in Ireland. Now
he would venture to put this matter to the Noble Viscount
and his friends ; for he was perfectly sure that their liberality
did not go so far as to expect the Clergy of the Established
Church, or the laity of that Church, would send their chil-
dren to be taught by monks and nuns in these schools. Now,
a single instance of this sort was a violation of the principle
upon which this system professed to proceed. If the Noble
Duke who cheered him a little while ago would prevail upon
his Noble Friend to grant this Committee, he would under-
take to double the number of 24 beyond those exhibited in
the return. He could say that an individual of high character
integrity, and close observation, had, from personal observa-
tion, ascertained the existence of nine others not included in
the return. Unhappily the evil did not rest here. These
schools had been made the scene of what Protestants were
taught to consider gross idolatry. An altar was standing for
years in one of the schools held under the superintendence
of a monk, where mass was performed in the presence of the
children, and in school hours.—( Hear, hear, hear.) This
was brought to the attention of one of the Commissioners of
Public Instruction, who undertook to represent it to the Board.
No doubt that gentleman fulfilled his undertaking ; for subse-
quently an order cams down from the Board to remove this
alt tr. But before this representation was made to the Board,
one of the inspectors had frequently been there, and must have
heard of the fact, but no notice was taken of it. The curate
of the parish finding that the altar was not removed, although
an order had teen made for that purpose, he complained, and
tl.e monk then told him that he had got special permission to
keep the altar in the school till a chapel in 'the parish was
ready to receive it—the outer walls of which were only at that
time erected. The Right Rcv. Prelate then stated two or
three cases where the money granted by the Board of Com-
missioners foa the establishing of schools ur d the management
of monks and nuns, bad been appropriated towards the expenses
of a University, and the building of a Roman Catholic chapel.
He could prove that in one of these places a dinner was given
to a person whose very existence depended on agitation—to
Mr. O'Connell. In another of these schools a di,nner was
given to the arch-agitator—he meant the so-called Archbishop
of Tuam, Dr. M'Hale. In another parish, the schoolmaster
went forth at the head of an organised body, in honour of this
same Dr. M` Hale, and met him with banners, on which were
inscribed the words—" Liberty and Religion." Their Lord-
ships would understand what was meant by the word
" Liberty," when they bore in mind what took place im.
mediately after Dr. Miele came fresh—he had almost
said reeking—from a dinner of agitation at Team, at
which was spoken language, wh'c'e in other times—he would
not say better times—would have caused some curiosity on the
part of his Majesty's Government. One clergyman rescline-
there made a representation to the Board on thetubjecte and
he received the assurance that the matter should be inquired
into. After a second application, the board, without the
slightest notice to the clergyman, sent down an inspector:
but unhappily for want of notice no witnesses were forthcom-
ing, and so off went the inspector, and no further notice was
taken of the affair. Another complaint was then made, and
the clergyman received from the board a simple intimation that
there had been an inquiry, and they were satisfied. The
clergyman did that which became a man, be requested that lie
might see the report made to them by the inspector; but the'
Commissioners refused to comply -.with his : demand. lie
would go' now to a case which ho believed would appear to the
House to be of a grave character, and one which made him
confident that he should obtain the assistance of the Noble
Marquis below hies in the vote ire now asked. He was told,
and he believed he could prove the fact, that in a national
school built on the property of that Noble Lord, and under the
patronage of the Noble Marquis's agent, that the boys just
after the execution of certain persons who had been tried and
condemned by a special commission in Queen's county. were
found writing as their copy these words—of course set them by
the master—" God be with the poor fellows that were haneed at
Maryberough." He might be told that this was only a kind and
charitable wish. But was there any one of their Lordships
who would gravely get up_ in his place and tell him with
a firm countenance, that he thought it was so intended ?
Was there any one of their Lordships who was not sure that
those words were put before these children to imbue their in.
fent minds with disaffection to the law, and make them con-
sider those min who had justly suffered for their crimes as
rnartyis, and to teach them from their earliest infancy to side
by the violators of the law, and sympathise with them. The
main point, after all, was this—whether the basis upon which
this system was founded was a true one or not; whether a
combined education of Roman Catholics and Protestants was
based on religious instruction? It was stated that certain
lessons extracted from the Scriptures were constantly used in
the schools. He recollected that Dr. M'Hale declared to
Parliament that the use of Scripture for the instruction in
these schools was radie.ally wrong and mischievous. Their
Lordships would judge, then, whether it was probable Dr.
111' Hale (rho was a member of the Board) would recommend
the use of these Scripture extracts. But so from being con-
stantly uecd, the fact was, that in a large portion of the coun-
try they were not used at all. In Dublin a monk told a very
respectable individual that they rejected these extracts with
scorn. And yet a few weeks ago a Noble and Learned Lord
reminded him (the Bishop of Exeter) that he had .never been
so false a prophet as when he ventured to predict that no
Scripture extracts would ever be used. He ventured upon
that prediction because the Noble and Learned Lord had,
some years ago, called upon their Lordships to believe the
word of a Roman Catholic. He (the Bishop of Exeter) did,
at the time he made that prediction, believe the word of a
Roman Catholic Archbishop, 'when he gave it upon his oath.
But he found that he was wrong ; lie found that be bad justly
subjected himself to the taunt of the Noble and Learned Lord
who first told him that those persons might be believed on
their oaths. Dr. M'Hale was asked, before the Commissioners
of Education Inquiry, whether there would be any objection
to the introduction, in these schools, of portions of the Protes-
tant version of the Scripture. Dr. 111'1-Tale's answer, upon
his oath, was thin I think that if any words attributed to
our Saviour wee° given in any other form than that which
stands itt the Douay version, and objection would be made
egainet it." Dr. *Hale stated that the Roman Catholics
cerald not adopt the course proposed, because they could not
permit anything to be. exhibited as Scripture, except in the
ferm as it appeared in their own version. This he solemnly
swore, and because he did so, he (the Bishop of Exeter) be-
lieved him..---( Hear-) It would not be said that these Scrip-
ture extracts did not propose to be Scripture. The volume
he held in his hand was declared to contain the whole Gospel
by St. Luke, accompanied by passages from other parts of
Scripture. It was? however, rather remarkable that after the

his
The LORD CHANCELLOR took
seat on the Woolsack at
he usual hour.

STAFFORD DISFRANCHISEMENT.

Messengers from the Commons brought up the Stafford
Disfranchisement Bill.

The Earl of RIPON presented petitions from the borough
of Ripon against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill.
Lord HATHERTON presented petitions from Cumber-
land against the probate clause of the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH presented petitions from the
electors of Yeovil, Worcester, and Southampton, against the
Testamentary Courts in. Counties Bill.
POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition from
the farmers of the neighbourhood of Salisbury, praying for

the introduction. of Poor Laws into Ireland.
Lord RADNOR presented a petition from a congregation
of Dissenters in favour of the voluntary principle.
Lord TEMPLEMORE presented a petition from Wexford
praying for the abolition of tithes.
NATIONAL EDUCATION—(IRELAND.)
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from a place,
the name of which we did 'not hear, praying for a system of
National Education in Ireland ; and also complaining of the
grievances arising from the grant to the College of Maynooth.
He begged to assure their Lordships, and especially his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, that he did not rise for tl!e purpose of pro-
moting mere discussion, or from any spirit of hostility.—( Hear. )
On the contrary, his intention was so to deal with the tub-
ject as should satisfy their Lordsbips and the Noble Viscount
(Melbourne) that he bad no other object but what they must
have—no other ;duty but what must be that of his Majesty's

. .
Ministers—the real good of the great mass of the population
of Ireland as they would be affected by the object of his
motion. In moving, as he should, for a Committee respecting
the practical working of the present system, he by no means
wished to imply ‘a censure on his Majesty's Government, or
on that of Ireland. That the Commissioners had not conducted
themselves as they should have done, was he freely admitted,
no fault of his Majesty's Ministers ; and they could not be
held responsible for the conduct of any Commissioners acting
under the Crown or under the authority of the Lord Lieute-
nant of Ireland.—( Hear.) They were bound to defend

•
ill the officers of the Crown against whom charges should be
brought, and unless there was prima facie evidence to sustain
the charge they were perfectly justified in so doing. If the
charge which he the Bishop of Exeter was going to bring,
or the doubts which he was going to express relative to this
commission, or its present line of action, should turn out
to be unfounded, he would entreat of their Lordships to
dismiss it from their thoughts.---( Hear, hear..) If, on the
other band it should appear to have a fair share of evidence to
support it, he trusted that their Lordships, and more especially
the Government, were called on to promote that inquiry.
The Noble Lords composing part of the Government had
always resisted any inquiry into the relative number of Pro-
testant and Catholic children attending these schools.
—( Hear, hear.) He believed they were sincere, but
be would lay his statements before the Noble Lords,
and after having heard those statements, if they still resisted
such an inquiry he would not call upon their Lordships
for a vote on the subject. He felt that he was only
following the dictates of his duty as a Minister of
religion in bringing forward his present motion. He intended
to move for a select committee to enquire what pro-
gress the new system of education in Ireland had made
towards being the best combined 'system of education
for the poorer classes; to inquire whether the funds bad been
judiciously administered by the Commissioners; and whether
their experience enabled them to say if it •was possible to
carry into effect the recommendations contained in their Second
Report. He thought it could not possibly be denied that
the time for inquiry had come.—( Hear, hear.) The sys-
tem, when first established, was avowed to be an experi-
ment in both Houses of Parliament, and by the Archbishop
of Dublin, one of the most distinguished of the Commissioners.
Their second report contemplated such an extension of the
means and of the action of this Commission, that it was the
bounden duty of every one of their Lordships to pause and
weigh well the grounds on which the recommendation
rested. They required a large sum of money during a
period of nine years, and 20,0001.. annually afterwards.
The sum was large ; but he did not think that or any
sum would be large for the purpose of securing the religious
peace of Ireland ; but he tild not think that sound religious
education could be given under this Commission. The Conk.missioners also avow that they proposed to take upon tb•;:ni-
selves the education of the great mass of the popule"tion of
Ireland ; though that Report was certainly signed by all
the Commissioners, he could not suppose that it had passed
unanimously..—( Hear, hear.) He did tot see how the
Most Rev. Prelate, the Archbishop of Dublin, could have as-
sented to the recommendation contained 3n the Report, be.

TtlE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MARCH 16, !8

preface declared that the volume contained the whole Gospel
of St. fluke, he had ndt gone through tine pages Mare In
fotind sery eensiddrable chasmenot.in size but in importance,
extending only td tea atones of the first, ehapter of St. Luke.
They left out the Ist and 2d chaptefs of St. Luke; and the Ist
and 2d chapters of St. Matthew, believing that was
nothing in them. They were told that one of the Commis-
sioeers was an Unitarian, and it had been suggested that this
was a concession to his peculiar feelings. For one, he di] not
belio:e it. He did not believe that individual woul I wish the
concession. Ile would not believe that the Unitarian Com-
mlssidtier was one that upheld all the absurdities and wicked-
ness of other Unitarians ; but that having been stated as a rea-
son fur the omission, he noticed it merely in order to contradict
it. He must say that this was a mutilated book. It professed
to be the whole Gospel of St. Luke, but it was not so. Was it
to be endured that these Commissioners should play these tricks
with the Word dr Odd, and teach the children that they were
taught the whole word of God, when they had these impor-
tant passages kept from them ? But he would not press this
matter further, because he felt this was not the proper place.
The proper place was a committee, where he would prove
that all the proceedings of the Board, under this sestem, had
a tendency to promote the Roman Catholic faith at the ex-
pense of what the Protestants believed to be the true religion.
In seeking this Committee, he could assure their Lordships
that he had no intention of proposing the destruction of this
system of education. He would state the two points which he
thought would go very far indeed to remove the objections to
this system, and then all that was necessary would be that the
system should be fairly carried into execution. One change he
would suggest was founded upon the change made with re-
spect to the Synod of Ulster, to which Lord Grey assented—
namely, that during school hours there should be scripture
lessons read for a certain time, at which lesson-hours it
should not be necessary that all the children should attend,
o: any child attend whose parent made an objection. Ano-
ther great point was, to take steps to protect the Ronian Ca-
tholics of Ireland from the tyranny of their priesthood, by in-
sisting that that priesthood should not do that which all must
feel to be in absolute defiance of God's Word, and an act
of most unjustifiable tyranny—refuse to permit the people to
have any access to the Word of God. He would be satisfied
with requiring what Dr. Murray said there could b 3 nn pos-
sible objection should be done. The Commissioners in 1824
and 1825, feeling the absolute necessity of insisting upon the
exhibition of the Word of God to all the children who were
going through a course of Christian education, required the
Roman Catholic bishops to produce a translation with such
notes as they might think fit to put in the hands of Roman
Catholic children in all those schools having separate religious
instruction ; upon this, Dr. Murray observed that serious
difficulty would exist its the way of any arrangement by
which Roman Catholic and Protestant children would be
allowed to read different versions, and he proposed that one
version of Scripture only should be used ; and said that there
could be no possible objection to the Roman Catholic children
reading the Gospels and Epistles of the week. This in-
cluded a very large portion of the New Testament; and he
(the Bishop of Exeter) thought that if these two points were
adopted, they would go very far to remedy the greatest evils of
this system.—( Hear, hear.) That which they, as Protest-
ants, were most anxious to obtain was, that the Roman
Catholics should ' be allowed to see the holy volume-!that
they should become familiar with it—that they should be
taught to know that it contained the word of God and of truth.
He assured his Majesty's Ministers that he did not 1(4 to this
question as one of party feeling. The Right Rev. Prelate
concluded by moving that a Select Committee be appointed
to inquire into the progress which the new system of education
in Ireland had made in effecting the main purpose for which
it was established, namely, the combined education of the poor
community.of that country, Protestant as well as Catholic; to
inquire whether the funds intrusted to the Commissioners had
been judiciously administered towards the attainment of that
object ; and whether the experience of the practical result of
their labours rendered it safe and advisable to adopt the recom-
mendations contained in their second report.
Viscount MELBOURNE thought he owed it to their
Lordships to state generally the grounds on which he felt
it would be out of his power to comply with the motion-
which the Right Rev Prelate had made.—( Hear, hear.)
The principal grounds were briefly. these ; that the appoint-
ment of a Committee would tend to no good, but to much
evil—to disturb the system of education satisfactorily (as.he
believed) established in Ireland—to revive religious ani-
mosities and dissensions, and to interrupt a plan of pro-
ceeding which had received the sanction (he believed) of
every public man in the country, and been adopted by every
Government which had existed during the period of the last
five years. The Right Rev. Prelate had stated with great
truth, that it was a very different thing to oppose a system at
beginning, and to interfere with a system after it was estab-
lished and in actual operation; and that those who might be
anxious to oppose a system at the commencement, might very
possibly not be desirous of intermeddling or interfering with
its progress after it had once been established. But their Lord-
ships must consider the quarter whence this proposition came,
and the effects which would
.be produced upon the public
mind in Ireland, when it was seen that a committee of inquiry,
whose labours were to be devoted to the improvement of the
existing system of education, was appointed at the .suggestion
of one of those who were the strongest and most vehement
opponents of the system when it was first proposed. —( Hear. )
On that ground alone he thought it would be highly impolitic
in their Lordships to accede to the motion which had been
made on that occasion. The Right Rev. Prelate stated in the
first place that the Archbishop of Dublin, in answer to one of
the addresses which had been presented to him, admitted that
the experiment was very likely to fail.--(Hear, hear.) But
the Right Rev. Prelate omitted to state the reason which
induced the Archbishop of Dublin to think it likely that the
experiment might fail. He omitted to me ition that the ap-
prehension of failure in the Archbishop's mind arose from the
anticipated opposition of the Romon Catholic populatioe.—
.( Hear.) That certainly was not the ground of failure alleged
against the system of the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of
Exeter) on the present occasion. The Right Rev. Prelate
subsequently made what he (Lord Melbourne) must ad i, to
be a very fair defence of his Most Rev. Friend the Archbishop
of Dublin, when he stated that the experience of the last four
years of the working of the system had convinced him (the
Archbishop of Dublin) of the advantages attending it—that
he regarded it no longer as an experiment, and that he was
anxious for its further extension.' That indeed was a:correct
statement of the fact—the Archbishop of Dublin did consider
the plan to have succeeded—did consider it as in the course
and progress of success, as conciliatory to the minds of the
people of Ireland, Catholic and Protestant, and as extending
the benefits of a sound education, the acquirement of scrip-
tural knowledge, and an acquaintance with the precepts of
true religion to all classes of the community in that country.
Upon these grounds lie thought it would be unwise and iris-
prudent in their Lordships to interfere with the operation of
the system, or in any degree to inter not or prevent its pro.
gross.—(Hews", hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate relied very
much upon the second report of the commissioners, from
which be 1 ad read extracts, and which undoubtedly opened
very large topics of discussion. The Commissioners in that
Report certainly took very extensive views of further proceed-
ings upon the subject. But he (Lord Melbourne) bed al- -
ready stated that the Government were not pledged to the re-
commendations contained in the Report. Their intention in
the present year undoubtedly was to propose a large vote for
this service than was proposed last year; but if they were
going to adopt the system to the extent recommended in the
Second Report of the Commissioners, he did not pretend to
say that seine further inquiry—some closer examination and
investigation would not be necessary. —( Hear, hear.) The
Right Rev. Prelate complained that the Repori, _afforded. no
.security for the r ligien of those who Were to Ise the iastruc-
tors of the school-masters. He (Lord Melbourne) should
think that the offer of any security upon that point would be
utterly superfluous ; for, could it be supposed that a Board so
constituted as the Board of Education in Ireland was, in ap-
pointing officers of such importapce, would not take proper
means to secure their being persons of right religious feeling,
and of sufficient religious knowledge ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Viscount here alluded to what he could not help call-
ing the rather disiagenuous parallel which the Right Rev.
Prelate had drawn between the Commissioners and the Mini-
ster of Public Instruction in tkance ; but in this part of his
speech the Noble Viscount was not very distinctly heard in
the Gallery. We understood him to contend that there was a
vast difference in the .lltuation of the Minister of Public In-
struction in France and the Commissioners of Educa:ion in
Ireland, inasmuch as that the former addressed himself to a
country where a great proportion of the population were
Roman Catholic, and where the Roman Catholic was the
Established religion, whilst the latter, on the contrary, were
addressing a country where a great majority of the population,
it was true, were Roman Catholics, but where the Ronsan Ca-
tholic was not the Established religion.—( Hear, hear.) Here
was the root of the whole difficulty ; this it was that forced
themi to the adoption of so many expedients.—( Hear, hear.)
It was not wonderful that the new system of education should
in the first instance have excited some doubt in the mind of
the Archbishop of Dublin and others. Four years' experieice,
however, satisfied him that it had succeeded in a manner which
was beyond all disputation. Ile did not see that the Right
Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter), notwithstanding'
the various statements into which he had entered, had laid any
grounds for the appointment of a Committee.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) All that the Right Reverend Prelate had stated of
the misconduct of schoolmastersall that he had stated of
the improper behaviour of individuals—all that he had stated
of the wrong use that had been made of school-rooms, ad-
mitteo of a sufficient remedy by application to the Board itself.
—( Hear, hear.) If, after an application to the Board, it were
found that a preper remedy was not obtained, it would then be
for the e‘.Paight Rev. Prelate to come down to Parliament and
to ask tor the adoption of such an extreme measure as that
which he proposed on the present occasion. The Right Rev.
Prelate had adverted to the statement made by his Noble
Friend who opened this question in the other House of Par-
liament, in which his Noble Friend stated that the Protestant
Clergy should in the first instance be attended to in founding;
the new schools, and then the Right Rev. Prelate proceeded'
with considerable force to point'out the much greater number
of schools which had fallen into the hands of Roman Catho-
lics, compared with those which had been given to Protestant
Ministers.
But their Lordships must recollect the circum-
stances under which the new project of education was esta-
blished. When his Noble Friend in the other House of Par-
liament stated that he wished on that occasion to act in con-
cert with the clergy of the Established Church, lie stated no
more than the truth ; but he did not at that time anticipate
the bitter and determined opposition with which the plan was
ultimately received by the Protestant clergy ; he did not anti-
cipate an Address, signed by seventeen of the prelates of Ire-
land, condemning' the p
.—lan, and calling upon the clergy of
the Establishment not to act upon it( Hear, hear.) He
Lord Melbourne), knew that the Most Reverend Prelate
at the head of the Irish Church, had stated, on
a former occasion, that the Bishops had much greater

I difficulty in restraining the clergy than in exciting them to
oppOsition. He ( Lord Melbourne) thought that that was very
, likely--.and the Most Reverend Prelate having stated it as a
fact, he felt convinced of Its truth but at the same time it
I proved how great had been the hostility ot the part of the
clergy of the Establishment, and bow little eidriderftil it must
thdrene'rU he eonsidered that the result stated by the iii;,:fht
Reverend Prelatd tl,reeld have followed such a commence -
ment.—( Hear, hear.) He believe 4 that the original hostility
of the clergy was fast fading away—that Etta original difficul-
ties were likely soon to 'be got over—that the feelings of
jealousy and irritation which at first existed were rapidly pass-
ing away. Would their Lordships consent to revive them—
would they stir the questiort again—would they call again
Into action all those polemical and theological points of differ-
ence which had been referred to by the !tight Rev. Prelate.
(Hear, hear)? He felt satisned that they would not, and
ha felt therefore satisfied that they would resist the motion
for the Committee.—( Hear, hear, hear. Every body who
knew anything of Ireland must be aware—looking to the
state of the population in that country,--looking at the
great preponderance of the Roman Catholic faith in many
particular parts of it—that in the application of any ge-
neral system of education, many of the schools must be
entirely Roman Catholic. The Right Rev. Prelate had well
stated that the object of the new systein was to give an united
plan of education to Catholics and Protestants. The very
strop: feeling which prevailed upon the subject prevented the
p'an from being so successful as it might have been at the
commencement ; but the best hopes of its success at present
prevail .d, and those hopes he trusted their Lordships would
not interrupt by acceding to such a motion as that proposed
by the Right Rev, Prelate. The Right Rev. Prelate had
mew:cried certain schools which were held in connection with
nunneries, or within the walls of nunneries. He (Lord Mel-S
bourne) held in his hand a letter from one of the Commis-
skims, Mr. Carlisle, upon the subject, which, as allusion
had been made to the matter, he would trouble their Lord-
ships by reading: The Noble Viscount read the letter, in
which it wus stated that soon after the Board was established
applications were made in behalf of schools conducted
by nunneries, and by lay confraternities of Raman
Catholics—that the Board was in doubt as to the views of
Government with respect to those schools, and that in conse-
quence a conference was had with Lord (then Mr.) Stanley
as to the mode in which these applications should be treated ;
that after a careful considera. ion of the subject—seeing that
the class of schools in question was most favourably reported
of by the Commissioners of 1826—considering that they came
11 under the rule of national schools, and considering also that
if their application were acceded to they would come within
the control of the Board, whereas if it were refused they
would remain entirely independent of it—the Commissioners
agreed unanimously that the application of these schools should
be received The letter concluded by stating that the number
of these schools was not great. That he (Lord Melbourne)
thought was a sufficient explanation of the circumstances to
which the Right Reverend Prelate had referred. In conclu-
sion he ( Lord Melbourne) would only repeat, that the exist-
ing system of education in Ireland was one which had been
approved of by almost every Government which had existed
in this country for many years past. It was introduced by his
Noble Friend in the other House, certainly and unquestion-
ably a decided friend of the Protestant religion and•the
Church Establishment—it was adopted by the late Govern-
ment, who placed that estimate upon the table which their
Lordships voted last year for the support and maintenance of
these schools—it was entirely approved of by the present Go-
vernment, and he thought their Lordships would act most un-
wisely if they were to interfere with its further progress by
adopting the present motion.
The Earl of HARRO WBY begged their Lordship to re-
collect a little how this question came before them. After a
great number of different commissions—sitting for a great num-
ber of years, and proposing a great number of different plans
for the education of the people of Ireland—had been ap-
pointed, Parliament about four years ago adopted the plan
which had since been in operation. That plan (taking the
words from the mouths of its proposers and strongest sup-
porters) was confessedly a mere experiment, of the success of
which they expressed no inconsideracle doubt. The measure
having now been in operation for about four years, could any
thing be more obvious, could anything apparently be so little
liable to objection, as that Parliament, after having decided
on making the experiment, should now employ itself in an
inquiry as to how that experiment had been made, and with
what success? Many of the plain and simple facts brought
forward by the Right Rev. Prelate in support of,his motion
had received no answer from the Noble Viscount. They had
been told that in many points the money voted by Parliament
for the purposes of education had not been properly applied,
and that the school-rooms had been appropriated to purposes
most directly opposed to their legitimate object. These he
should conceive to be strong additional grounds for inducing
their Lordships to be fully informed as to whether these facts
were correct or not. He (Lord Harrowby) confessed that
that statement of the Noble Viscount had in some degree
diminished the feeling which he at first entertained that it
would be the imperative duty of the House to direct an in-
quiry
of such a nature as that pointed out 'by the Right Rev.
Prelate. After the Noble Viscount's statement, he thought
he might remain satisfied by resting the whole responsibility
on the head of the Government.
Lord PLUNKET wished to know whether the motion were
not intended as an arrangement of the whole system, or whether
(as it professed to be) it was merely founded on some supposed
abuses of the system for which amendment or correction was ne-
cessary. The subject of education in Ireland had been matter
of lengthened Parliamentary inquiry for nearly thirty years ;
and the report which was made upon the subject so long
ago as 1812 was well worthy of their Lordships' attention.
The names of the Commissioners by whom the report was
made were familiar to their Lordships. They were all at-
melted by early feelings to the Protestant Church in Ireland.
There was the Primate of Ireland, the Archbishop of Cashel,
Dr. Elrington (the head of the Protestant University in Dub-
lin), Mr. Leslie Foster, and two or three other gentlemen, all
of whom had deeply at heart the welfare of the Protestant
Establishment ; and they stated in their report principles well
worthy of the perpetual recollection of every person who felt
anxious for the wellfare and well being of Ireland. They
gaited that there was a thirst for learning on the part of the
people of Ireland. They stated, with respect to education,
what Sir John Davies had so long ago said with respect to
law—" Never was -a people," said Sir John, "so anxious for
the benefit of equal laws." " Never was a people," said the
Commissioners of 1812, "so anxious for the benefit of gene-
ral education." These two natural wishes of the people of
Ireland, notwithstanding all the difficulties which had hitherto
stood in the way, he felt were now likely to be `realized—
( Hear, hear, hear,)—and he thanked the Noble Viscount at

the heal of his Majesty's Government for having determined
on the present occasion not to yield to an application which,
if acceded to, might stop the progress of one at least of these
desirable objects in Ireland. The question was this : was it
possible in Ireland to unite moral and religious education ?
It was agreed that they could not separate them. Was it
possible, then, that they could unite them ? That question
occupied the attention of Parliament thirty years ago, and
had been a matter of frequent discussion since. The -great
difficulty from the first had been whether the Bible was
or was not to be used as a book of education? That ques-
tioli was decided in 181,2, by the Commissioners to whom
he had alluded. It was 're-considered by the new Commis-
sioners appointed in 1824, who came to the same decision ; and
the decision of the Commissioners of 1812 was again admitted
to be correct by the Committee of dui House of Commons,
whose report was made in 1828. Now, how was he to under-
stead what had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate in the
,course of the present debate ? The Right Rev. Prelate had
stated that there were certain parts of the Scriptures in which
it. was impossible that Roman- Catholics and Protestants could
Conscientiously agree ; and with great accuracy, and, as usual,
with ability, the Right Rev. Prelate hal pointed_out particular
passages and points upon which, as he stated, the two religions
were directly opposed to each other. - But the conclusion which
the Right Rev. Prelate drew from this statement—if it had any
meaning whatever—was no doubt very acute, very ingenious,
very clever; but if it had any sense or meaning, it was this—
that the Scriptures could not be introduced as a book in schools •
without becoming a subject of religious controversy. Then he
(Lord Plunkett) could not help saying, that lie feared the real
object of the Right Rev. Prelate, in bringing forward this motion,
was not so much to ohtilin an inquiry into the working of the sys-
tem, as to arraign tha principle on which the system was i s-a-
Wished. After dwelling at some length upon the speech made
by the Bishop of Exeter, and after alluding also at some length
to the debate which took place in the House of Commons upon
the subject in the last Ssssion of Parliament, the Noble and
Learned Lord proceeded to say, that if there really were any
such eases of abuse as had been pointed out, the proper quarter
to apply to for the remedy was the Board of Commissioners.
At the same time, when bi 3 Noble Friend, the Noble Viscouet
at the head of the Government, refused that night to accede to
the proposition of the Right Rev. Prelate, he did not under-
stand him as saying, that if any particular case of abuse should
be made to appear that Parliamentary inquiry was neces-
sary, such en inquiry should not be granted. But he
(Lord Plunlzet) -felt the necessity and prudence of the
course which his Noble Friend had adopted of not permitting,
under the mask '(he did not mean to use the word in an offen=
sive sense) of inquiring into abusess, a notion to get abroad
that 'the principle of the present system was to be departed
.ftom. It had been stated that the most Rev. the Archbishop
of Dublin had considered this measure as a mere experiment
that he was not sanguine in his expectations of its success-
-but that it ought at all events to have a fair trial. Might
he ( Lord Plunkett) be permitted to ask whether the plan had
had a fair trial ?—( Hear, hear.) It had not for one single
day had a fair trial. The Noble Viscount had already stated
the active, and he ( Lord Plunket) had no doubt the consci-
entious, part which the fourteen or fifteen Prelates of Ireland
thought it necessary to adopt when it was first proposed to
carry the system into operation. Notwithstanding the active
part taken by these Rev. Prelates, he ( Lord Plunkett) was
still sincerely of opinion that a great proportion not only of
the lay Protestants of Ireland, but of the Protestant clergy of
that country, were favourable to the progress of this measure.
Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter)
had criticised the statement made by the Board of Commis-
sioners, that 140 members of the Protestant Established
Church had addressed them in favour of this measure. The
Board never stated-any such thing. The Right Rev. Prelate
was perfectly aware of what was stated ; he knew perfectly
well that what the Board stated was this ; that amongst the ap-
plications which had been made to them for relief under this
system there were the signatures of 140 clergymen of the Es-
tablished Church. So there were; that statement of the Board
was not only substantially but literally true, because although
the names of some of those clergymen were three and
even four times over, yet in every instance the duplicate sig-
nature had been to a separate and distinct application. If
they had described the number of the Protestant clergy in
in.
favour of the proposition as greater than it actually
been, they had done the same thing respect to the otheri

denomiaation4 ilea gy ;so that the proportion remained the'
' same, and the question rtes not substantially affected. At any
rate, he hoped the Right Res'. Prelate did not mean to iusi-
nuate that the Commissioners did anything which they ha,
done for the purpose of impcsition. It was necessary for 'him
to advert to some circumstances, in order to show whether the
rroard had fair play. It was a matter of public notoriety, that:
there had been meetings in the north of Ireland, consisting of
many thousands of persons, who were told that the sacred
ivord of. Clod had been mu:ilatei, and that attempts erere
' making by the Board to deprive them of their Bible. Was
that fair play ?—( Hear, hear.) Under such circumstances,
could it be said that the experiment had been fairly tried? -
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl opposite (who was not so•
hostile to the existing system when his Noble FriLeds were in
office, as he was at present) had addressed some of these firect-
ings, the very persons composing which had their I.;7blis in
their hands. They were exhorted
" To put their trust in Providence,
And keep their powder dry."
t •
At a numerous and respectable meeting of Orangettkn, in the
country of Tyrone, Mr. Brere in the chair, the full.. „ reso-
lution was unanimously agreed to :—" That as Protestants-,
reprobating the new system of national education, we will not
(he begged the House to observe the candour and piety of
the declaration) listen to any clergyman who supports it."
So, the Dissenting clergy in the north of Ireland, who de-
pended on their congregations for subsistence, were told that
they would not be listened to in-their pulpits if they supported
• the new system. Again he asked, therefore, if the sys-
tem could be said to have had fair play ?—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Their Lordships were aware of the system which- had been
formed by the Kildare-street Society. Of that Society Mr.
Jackson, an eminent lawyer, was the secretary. Mr. Jackson
was examined before the Commissioners of Education in 1826.
The same question was then raised as had been just raised-by
the Right Rev. Prelate.ek Mr. Jackson had been asked as to
the religion of the amasters and mistresses of the schools, and
as to the religion of the scholars. He (Lord Plunket) had
argued, on former occasions, that it was no part of the duty of
the Commissioners to require answers to such questions. He
hoped that the Right Rev. Prelate would have the candour to
acknowledge that he was not justified in drawing any inference
against the existing Board from what he had stated. The
s.ard had no right to make the inquiry, and no inference-
therefore could be drawn against them for their not haviere
done so • nay more, they would not have been justified if
they had so acted. Let it be recollected that by the exist-
ing system above 180,000 young persons were rescued from
the grasp of ignorance and vice, and were receiving the be-
nefits of a sound education.—( Hear, hear.) Surely no good
man could seriously wish to stop the progress of such a sys-
tem.—( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he wished to say
one word in vindication of the Roman Catholics from the
charge made against them by the Right Rev. Prelate with re-
spect to the Holy Scriptures. Wbat the Right Rev. Prelate
had said, meant that the Roman Catholics denied the authority
of the Holy Scriptures, or it meant nothing. Now of this he
(Lord Plunket) was sure, that no Roman Catholic, either in
Ireland or anywhere else, would deny the authority of the
Holy Scriptures. On the contrary, they held them to be the
very essence of Christianity; the revealed word of God. , It
was true that for their explanation they called in aid from other
sources; and in that consisted all that was imputed to them,
which amounted to this—that they did not consider that the
Holy Scriptures, without any comment or explanation, were
fit to be put into the hands of the people.
The Earl of RODEN sag that the Noble and Learned
Lord had asserted, that where Noble Lords on his (Lord
Roden's) side of the House were in office, he (Lord Roden)
did not feel the same anxiety on the subject in question as at
present. Now the insinuation contained in that assertion he
distinctly denied. It was falsely imputed to him that his
opinions on the subject had at all varied. With respect to his
conduct at the meeting adverted to by the Noble and Learned
Lord, he would pursue the same course again to-morrow.
The Right Rev. Prelate had distinctly shown that the
ground of the existing system was the mutilation of the
Scriptures. Of the meeting at Tyrone he did not per-
sonally know anything ; but he highly approved of what
seemed to be the purpose of that meeting. In adverting
to the evidence given by Mr. Jackson to the Commissioners
of Education, in 1826, the Noble and Learned Lord omitted
to state that the Commissioners compelled the Kildare-street
Society to make the returns in question. He (Lord Roden)
demanded similar returns from the existing board. If ever
a case had been brought before Parliament, of sufficient ground
for inquiry, it was the case so ably stated by the Right Rev.
Prelate. Of this he was sure, that when the accounts of what
had just passed in the House reached the public, the general
feeling would be that his Majesty's Government were afraid- to
meet the inquiry. Inquiry was necessary, to show that the
object which the then Chief Secretary for Ireland, now Lord
Stanley, had in view in proposing the system, had not been
carried into effect.

Lord PL UNKET explained.
The Earl of WINCHIL SEA must say, in justice to big
Noble Friend, that he expressed himself with equal warmth
against the existing system of national education in Ireland
when carried on under tne late Government as at present. ric
(Lord Winchilsea) was not aware until that evening that the
grant of 37,0001. to the Irish Board of Education bad been
increased to 50,0001. In the Report of the Commissioners
they recommended the extension of the grant to a sum nearer
300,000/. than 200,0001. for the first nine years, and the fixing
of it afterwards at 200,000/. The Right Rev. Prelate had
made out an incontrovertible case, and he ( Lord Winchilsea)
should sit down perfectly satisfied that no discussion had ever
taken place within those walls so well calculated to open the
eyes of Protestants generally as to the tendency of the course
which his Majesty's present Ministers were pursuing to the de-
struction of the Protestant interest in Ireland.
Viscount MELBOURNE, adverting to the three supposed
conditions on which the Noble Earl had. just declared that his
Majesty's Government bad obtained the support of a certain
eminent individual; begged leave most distinctly to deny the
existence of those three conditions, or of any of those three
conditions, or of any condition or stipulation whatever. He
begged leave to tell the Noble Earl that his information ou
this subject was totally erroneous, and without any foundation
whatever.
The Bishop of EXETER, in reply; begged leave to with-
draw his motion.

The motion was accordingly Ivithdrawn ; and at ten minutes
before nine o'clock the House adjourned.

EAST INTIIA. AND CHINA TRADE.

Yesterday, whighly respectable meeting of the merchants
and others interested in tilt; trader to India and China, was
held at the City of London Tave:, for the purpose of recei-
ving a Report from the P.ovisional Committee, appointed to
draw up rules and regulations for the governance of the As-
sociation, which has been formed to protect the interests of
those engaged in the commerce with the possessions in India
and China.
W. CRAWFORD, Esq., M.P., in the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN stated the objects of the meeting, and said it
was very desirable that the Association should go to work as
soon as possible, in order that during the present Session of
P. rliament matters, which ought to be brought forward relative
to the trade, might rccive full consideration. •
Mr. G. H. DE LARPENT said that, having been appointed
Chairman of the Provisional Committee, it was his duty to read
the Report which had been drawn up, comprising the rules and
regulations for the future government of the Association. It
was necessary for the advancement of the great interests at
stake, that the Association should have a Secretary of cha-
racter and talent who might have weight enongh, should it be
necessary, to present memorials to Government to give-effect
to the-representations of the AsSociatien. It was proposed to
give to the Secretary 3501. per annum for his rand an assistant's
services. The total expenditure was calculated at about 600/.
per ann. To meet this outlay, they had,. in the first instance,
60 firms who had subscribed in favour of the formation, whiell
had been increased to 63 establishments. The Hon. Gentleman
proceeded to state the amount of subscriptions to be paid by
each, which would give an income of 560/. per annum.- It teas
proposed that an: entrance fee should be paid, amounting to 101.
for each firm and 51. for single individuals, to be appropriated
as a reserve fund, which would amount in the first instance to.
700/. The Eion. Gentleman then proceeded to read the report
of the Provisional Committee, which contained the rules and
regulations for the governance of the Society. The report
sated that the Association was formed for the protection of the
g .neral interests of the trade with the East Indias and Chios—
tor collecting and classil)ing information—watching the object
and progress of Hills-in Parliament—obtaining the removal of
gievanees and injurious imposts, and in ccanmunicating with
the public authorities on all subjects affecting the common
good. The report referred to other mattes of detail for the
management of the Association. Ile conclu,lei by moving
that the report be adopted, and that a permanent Committee
be chosen by ballot.
The report was adopted unanimously, and a ballot was
opened for the appointment of a permanent Committee.
Mr. Winat.NSoN suggested that an association, having fur
its object the general interests of the merchants of the port of
London, would be more useful than one exclusively confined
to the trade to the East Indies and China. lie was anxious to
see a chamber of commerce established for the protection of the
general trade of the country.
Mr. SMITH concurred in this opinion, believing that thtugh
c East India and China Association was founded upon honour-
able principles, still that a chamber of commerce would be ad-
vantageous to the great interests of the country. Such an es-
tablishment.; s he had named would be for the benefit of all in-
terests and not for the few. o:her associations might spring
up which tend to embarrass Government, instead of being of
gentral interest to the trade. Funds had aeraed in his hands,
amounting to about 3001. towards the establishment of a
chamber of commerce, which be would place at the dispwal of
such an institution if formed. • , ,
After come further conversation, in AN• Lleu tne till/ORMAN
stated that the meeting was fur the establishment of an ast
India and China Asso.eintion, the routine business was disposed
of, and the meeting adjourn

----=---.
Sir Eardicy Wilmot, Bart. has offered to act as Re-
rziiin
corder of the Borough of Warwick gratuitously; and the
Lcarund Baronet's liberal offer has been accepted with thanks
tiolt, to considerl
repeal ofa
by the, Tortevili
niCxinay Council. l last a meeting of the 'h am-
.
on N\
bitants of Birmingham was held in the 'Pow 1a
the propriety' of petitioning Parliament for own-hall,
chairman, and the meeting wasMra.drlirlessiledacible;
S a). t,
resolutions Sharman,
w oIr?
ea ulkner,
adopted.iipireesssirds.edEtai_s
the Newsprioer stamp duty.,
F. Muntz, and others i
G.
The utmost anxiety and
determination to effect a repeal
afterid whichs
of the tax was evinced by all
present. In the course of the . evening it was announced that
Ministers had obtained a maority of 61 on the Corporation
Bill, upon which flys
,business was suspended for some time by
the most enthusiastic cheering. .