The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-04 00:00:00

THE SrN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, MAY 4,

ferent kind of responsibility—that kind which consists in an
officer being here, in this House, to answer any question and
meet any obAjection, )ti he diad4. tt±ii ',44.CN.;in of any
oarticulnf power Of t 6 grOini edinrhltiO td iii 6 departmer,t
over which he pre§ides--=1 wthtt Mind* hie the Secretary
for the Colonia-'466 tfr thp Secietii.tor th 6 Hdme7office to
answer for the accts ttk, Upon this
question I can drily say o'lo. Wherdret. the lion. Baronet
chooses to bring ft before thd 11diiset it Witt bc,p'effectly open
for its inquii'y and VoiiirkYatitifit if kiße flksittiiß6d with
the existino. Staticdt this respect, he tilay suggest a
remedy, and bring it specifically under the consideration of the
House ; but I say that upon the present occasion I will not
debate the question. I will not commit so great a cruelty and
so great an injustice towards an individual, as to debate, under
his name, a great general question.—( Loud cheers.) If the
system be faulty, let the system be attacked, and let the system
'm changed ; but do not let us try to wound the system through
the sides of an individual. I therefore call upon the House
not to give their assent to a motion which cannot be considered
otherwise than As a censure passed upon an individual who has
not had a fair and legitimate opportunity of being heard in his
own defence.--( Cheers. )
Lord G. LENNOX—The Hon. Baronet had said that the
finding of the Court-martial was either a correct or an incor-
rect one. Ho boldly avowed his opinion that the decision of
the Court-martial was most incorrect.—( Cheers.) When he
:aid this, he wished to be distinctly understood as imputing no
improper or unworthy motives to any of its members. With
reference to the promotion of the Noble Lord, it should be re-
collected that he had never been taken out of his own regi-
ment and jobbed over the heads of older officers in another,
but that at every step he had gained he was the senior by
purchase. He (Lord G. Lennox) would only say, after having
been twenty-four years in the service, that he should have felt
proud and honoured if he had beer, able to produce such testi-
monials as the Hon. and Gallant Member had to show, after a
period of service of only six years.—( Cheers. )
Mr. HUME said the Noble Lord who had spoken last, ht d
brought forward a new point. He had told the House that
the Court-martial had acted improperly, and that persons
who supported, on oath, the charges brought against an
individual officer, had given a verdict in opposition to the
evidence. The Noble Lord in thus impugning the coneuet
of the most honourable tribunal that could be established

for the, trial of military offences, had, in his (Mr.
Hume's) opinion, made out a case for inquiry. He would
only add on this point, once for all, that in his opinion the
Noble Lord ( Lord Brudenell) had made out a case of great
grievance. He was undoubtedly unfortunate in bringing for-
ward charges which, in the opinion of the Court-martial, were
not substantiated; but he did think from the Noble Lord's
own statement, that there were grounds of complaint against
Lord Hill's exercise of discretion. He (Mr. Hume) had no
hesitation in sayinc, that the complaint he made was princi-
pally against Lord' Hill, for having as Commander-in-Chief,
sanctioned the verdict of the Court-martial, and proclaimed its
sentence, in the terms they had heard that night, at the head
of every regiment in the service, and now coming forward and
re-appointing the Noble Lord, without any explanation to satisfy
the minds either of officers or men that the sentence was a

harsh or unjust one on the Noble Lord.—( Cries of "Oh I"
and " Divide 1") He now wished to address himself to the
observations of the Noble Lord the Secretary at War, relative
to the alteration in the motion of his Hon. Friend. His
Hon. Friend had undoubtedly departed from his original
intention ; and why ? Because, not having paid attention
to the practice of the House in former instances, when it
had exercised its undoubted right of instituting an inquiry into
similar transactions, and finding that he might hare been met
with an objection on a point of etiquette and form, he had ad-
hered to the usual practice of the House, and moved for an
inquiry not only into the circumstances of the appointment,
but of the disgrace of the Noble Lord, by his removal from
the command of the 15th Hussars. He would read the opinion
expressed by two of our first Statesmen, to whom both sides
of that House would be disposed to defer, on the last occasion
of a similar question having been brought forward. In 1778,
no less than three separate discussions took place in that House
upon a charge brought against the Admiralty, of having im-
properly passed over certain officers in their promotions. Mr.
Masters moved for a Committee of Inquiry into the subject ;
and Mr. Pitt said—what he would now read as a reply to the
Noble Lord, and as a reason for the alteration which had been
made by his Hon. Friend—Mr. Pitt said " The present was
the proper mode of proceeding. The House had an undoubted
power of inquiring into the conduct of any department of the
Government, with a view either to censure or punishment.
That right was unquestioned ; and whenever a case was made
out strong enough to warrant a suspicion of abuse that deserved
either censure or punishment, he should ever hold it to be the
indispensable duty of the House to proceed to inquiry." Mr.
Fox said :—" He should vote for the motion, because it was
the constitutional province and the undoubted right of that
House to watch over the executive department of the Go-
vernment, and to institute an inquiry with a view either to
censure or punishment."—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend
had, therefore, he conceived, the authority of the strongest
precedent that could be adduced in favour of the form of

his motion—( Hear)—and the House had then only to inquire
whether they had any case made out before them to warrant
the suspicion that the conduct of the Commander-in-Chief had
not been such as they ought to sanction. Let the House con-
sider what effect that motion would have upon the minds of
the private soldiers. What said the advocates of flogging in
favour of the continuance of the punishment? That it was
necessary for the support of the discipline of the army.—( Oh,
oh.) Gentlemen might cry " Oh, oh," but this was the fact.
Every officer who spoke on the subject of flogging in the army
said that it was necessary for the maintenence of its discipline.
—( Divide, divide.) Let the House draw the comparison be-
tween the punishment of soldiers and their officers.—( Cries of
" Oh," and " Divide, divide," and great confusion.) What
were the privates to think of the justice of the punishment
which was inflicted on them, when they saw placed at the
head of a regiment, without statement or explanation, the
man whom the Commander-in-Chief had censured in the
strongest terms ? What was Lord Hill's reply to Lord
Brudenell, when he forwarded a memorial praying for a
Court-martial ? He (Mr. Hume) considered that Lord
Brudenell was entitled to a Court-martial ; he considered
that Lord Hill acted harshly and severely in not permitting
him to have one. The terms of the reply were—" There is
nothing in what you have brought under his Lordship's notice
to justify him in re-opening the question, or in recommending
that the decision come to upon it shall be reconsidered." What
were they to infer from this, but that Lord Hill was perfectly sa-
tisfied with the finding of the Court-martial, and that he was
convinced that the conduct of the Noble Lord had been un-
becoming an officer, and unworthy of the station in which he
was placed, and that he was no longer fit to command a regi-
ment ? He believed it was an invariable rulein the army, that
if an officer were unfit for one regiment, he was equally unfit
for another; he therefore contended that the conduct of Lord
Hill, in first refusing the Court-martial, and afterwards re-
establishing the Noble Lord, exhibited either a gross inat•
tention to the just claims of an individual officer, or a want of
proper example to the troops under his charge. Such re-
appointment
was in utter violation of all discipline, and di-
rectly contrary to every rule and principle which Lord Hill was
bound to maintain. If no explanation were given, they must
come to the conclusion that Lord Hill had made this appoint-
ment, not from a sense of justice, but from motives of par-
tiality.—(Divide, divide.) The Noble Lord had read several
letters, but they did not seem to him to have any bearing
upon his case ; for when a body of officers had expressed
their opinion of any particular case, on their oaths, their de-
cision was not to be shaken by private letters.—( Hear, hear. )
The Noble Lord (Howick) the Secretary at War said he was
not responsible to the House for the appointment ; he (Mr.
Hume) would only ask them to whom was the House to look?
They should not have a Commander-in-Chief upon whom no-
body there could call for an explanation. He repeated, he
wished to know to what authority they were to look as being
responsible for these appointments—(" Hear, and Divide 1")—
he therefore came to the conclusion—(" Bear" and "
!")—that the House should support the motion, because
it was consistent with precedents, because there was no other
tribunal to appeal to, and because it had been alleged to the
House by the Noble Lord himself, that there had been a de-
nial of justice in the case ; and therefore, if inquiry were not
granted, there would be the worst example for the discipline
of the army, and, above all, when it was recollected that the
Noble Lord was pursuing the career which he had two years
ago declared unworthy of the command of a regiment.—
(" Hear, hear," and cries of " Question.") He could state
eases of gross partiality and oppression against the Comman-
der-in-Chief; let therefore the House grant him a Committee,
that he might have an opportunity of proving them.—(Ques-
tion.) Why did Hon. Gen:lemen cry " Question !" if they
were not afraid to allow inquiry ? No man, as regarded his
private character, stood higher in his (Mr. Hume's) estima-
tion than Lord Hill ; but in his official situation, in his public
character, as Commander-in-Chief, he set a bad example.,
and had, by the course he had pursued, set discipline at defi-
ance.—(Cries of " Oh !" and " Question !")
Sir H ENRY HARDING E said, the present was not a case
of patronage, but was one purely of discipline—( Hear, hear,
hear)—and it did not come within the province of the House
to inquire into cases of military discipline.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Ia this ease a Court-martial has been held, before which an
officer had been accused of a breach of discipline. Before
that tribunal the prosecutor appeared, the charge was gone
into, and a verdict was come to, and a certain opinion had been
expressed by the Court as to the conduct of the prosecutor.
The proceedings of the Court were of course laid before the
Commander-in-chief for his approval ; and it had been stated
that after examination, the Commander-in-ohief agreed in the
opinion of the Court. Now he (Sir Henry Hardinge) con-
tended that the Commander. in-chief did not agree with the
Court, nor concur in the conclusions at which they had ar-
rived.—( Hear, hear.) He was anxious that every confidence
s:iould be placed in the proceedings of a Court-martial. They
were carried on before thirteen gentlemen who were upon
their oaths, and who, there could be no doubt, would return a
conscientious verdict. He was satisfied, therefore, that public
confidence should be placed in their proceedings. Captain
Wathen had been called before this tribunal for trial on certain
charges adduced against him. He ( Sir 11. Hardinge) could
not impugn the judgment or censure the conduct of that tri-
bunal. Captain sVathen was entitled to the full benefit of the
verdict that had been given, and he certainly could not call it
in question as regarded that officer. It ought to be recollected,
however, that the Court-martial was appointed to try Captain
Wathen and not Lord Brudenell ; it having performed its duty in
trying Captain Wathen, it was not called upon to proceed
against Lord 13rudenell, nor was it called upon to pals a cen-
sure upon Lord Brudenell.—(Hear, hear.) He would not go
into the proceedings of the Court-martial, but he thought that
it had in this instance, as sometimes might be the case in the
at my,aid which was also done by other tribunals, by expressing.
an opinion to mark the sense they entertained of the conduct of
the prosecutor, gone beyond the line prescribed to them—
( Hear, hear)—the officer upon whose conduct they had ex-
pressed an opinion was not on his trial, they, therefore, went

beyond what was called for.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.)
I If Lord Brudenell bad been put on his defence, he might
have been ablp clearly t 9 show that he was justified in
loing he did,,,,o:liggr§.) He (Sir H. Hardinge)
%-mid not gd Jaw the-other faeta tethe nisei nor would he go
into details td slidti• tlidf fliC colirt-Ipartinl had come to a wrong
conclusion on The part of fife subject which he had just ad-
verted to. tie o,o4tit fluff *Ailing could be more detri-
mental to the :dilly thin maiilog fhe HOllSe of Commons the
court of dpipcal frthl Couft§-mtHial,---(hear, hear.) Lord
ld .not iB. he censure passed by tin
Court-martial Off 141fd f f cri6l, fdf hi the general order
which Lord Hill issued on tili+ Stitjegt Otte wris the following
sentence:—" It would appear upon an agehti*e VerUSSI °f the
whole of the proceedings that some parts of the evidenetl might
bear a construction less unfavourable to the Prosecutorto,:r than
that which the Court have thought it their duff to ria,,
them." This he thought was sufficient proof of the opinion he
had expressed.—( Hear, hear.) H.; would not go into the oth r
parts of the case, but he would say what he had repeatedly stater
before, that he was satisfied that the Commander-in-chicfshould
not be a political character, and that he should be one free
from anything like political bias. —( I-leaf, hear.) He thougl.t
this a common-sense view of the cases If they made the
Commander-in-chief a political charritHr; they could not
prevent political influences operating on hitti.,-------(4ear, hear.)
He should merely further observe, that the motion of ilia Hon.
Friend the Member for Cornwall for a Committee of inquiry
into the conduct of Lprd Hill, in this proceeding, nas in re-
ality a motion to try Lord Hill—(Cheers)—not for unfair con-
duct in the promotion or in the bestowal of the patronage of
the army, but for matters relative to the discipline of the army.
Therefore, this Committee would have to take upon itself the
control of the discipline of the army, contrary to the rule of
the House, and contrary to the prerogative of the Crown—
( Hear)--a usurpation which had never been attempted since
1642.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex had let
out what was the object in view in this motion, that it was to
he a fishing Committee to attack Lord hear.)
Ile thought that the restoration of Lord Brudenell had Wen
done for the good of the service, and was only an act of jus-
tice, as well to the army as to the individual.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ELLICE said the House was aware, from the cor-
respondence recently laid on the table relative to this case, that
he had expressed his opinion to the Commander-in-Chief as to
the mode in which officers were placed on the half-pay in cases
of this kind. The Commander-in-chief announced to him in
this case the reason for the course he intended to take before
laying the new appointment before his Majesty. previous to
placing the Noble Lord on the half-pay. He (Mr. Ellice)
then stated, that with respect to placing the Noble Lord on
half-pay after what had taken place, he entertained very seri-
ous doubts. Having, however, taken the line which the
Noble Lord thought proper to do, and demanded a Court-
martial, he (Mr. Ellice) stated to the Commander-in-Chief
that if he, under the circumstances, had been placed on half-
pay, that he would have resigned his commission rather than
have accepted the pitiful allowance of half-pay, when he found
that inquiry was refused him.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Lord
Hill did qualify the sentence of a Court-martial in the way
which had been stated to the House. He agreed with
the Gallant General opposite, that the Members of the
Court-martial had gone beyond the duty prescribed to them.
—( Hear, hear, hear.) The same proceeding often occurred in
other courts of justice, when
.the jury expressed an opinion on
the conduct of the prosecutor. Where, however, it was fol-
lowed by so severe a sentence as the removal of an officer from
his regiment, the circumstance would appear the more striking.
He felt, then, that if there was not some qualification placed
on the sentence, that the full effect of it would be felt as a
punishment.—(Hear, hear.) Lord Hill, he (Mr. Ellice)
knew, had great doubts on the subject, and it was not without
hesitation that he agreed on the course that was followed.
The Judge-Advocate had been consulted on the subject, and
his opinion had been laid before his Majesty. Under these
circumstances, it followed that it could not be otherwise than
that the appointment by Lord Hill of Lord Brudenell was in
unison with his own opinion.—(Hear.) He was aware that
nothing could be more objectionable than inquiry into the pro-
ceedings of a Court-martial. But he still thought that they
should not punish an officer without hearing him in his defence,
or near the competent authority declare that the opinion of the
Court-martial went further than the case called for.—( Hear.)
He might have thought a little more favourably of the case at
the time than he ought, because it appeared to him that Lord
Brudenell had been borne down by the decision of the Court-
martial.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that the proceeding was
hard in itself—stronger than the circumstances of the case jus-
tified. He was sure that every Hon. Gentleman must agree
with him in admiring the conduct of the Noble Lord, after he
had been censured by the Court-martial, and for the language
he had used with respect to it.—(Hear.) He also concurred
with the Gallant General in saying, that he was sincerely glad
that the Noble Lord had been replaced in his Majesty's ser-
vice.----( Hear.) In consequence of what had fallen from his '
Noble Friend, as to the general question respecting the army,
he would only observe, that that question required such dis-
passionate discussion, that he thought it could be better taken
up by the Government than by the House. A commission
was appointed for the purpose of considering whether the civil -
and military departments in the army could not be consoli-
dated, each under their respective heads. Upon this corn-
mission he and Sir James Kempt attended, but it had not
been his (Mr. Ellice's) good fortune to agree with that Gal-
lant General in his opinions upon the subject. His (Mr.
Ellice's) opinion was, that the separation which already exis-
ted was too great, and was attended with very considerable
inconvenience, and, moreover, that any further attempt to se-
parate the two departments would be attended with conside-
rable danger. What at present was the condition of the army
in consequence of these divided functions? The Comman-
der-in-Chief had a thousand appeals made to him, and so
great were the subdivisions, that he himself did not know on
what or on whom to depend for defence of his own conduct,
it defence should become necessary. As to the Secretary at
War, that functionary had less to do with this department,
than the Home Secretary—for every commission had to be
countersigned by the Horne Secretary.—( Hear, hear.)
The Home Secretary, the Commander-in-Chief, the Lords of
the Treasury, the Judge Advocate, had all to do with the
matter before it came to the Secretary at War. The House
would not find him hazarding a rash opinion upon this sub-
ject ; but of this he was perfectly satisfied, that things could
not safely remain as they were. The army suffered very much
from not having a sufficient protection from high quarters, from
not having a high and responsible authority to represent them
in his Majesty's Councils, as every other department of the
State had. There ensued great difficulties also from these
causes to the Colonial service, difficulties which deserved the '
particular attention of the Government and Legislature, if it
were considered a desirable thing to maintain an army in a
state of .effectiveness. He had stated the difficulties of the
case ; but he was not prepared, at the present moment, to pro-
pose a remedy for them. He hoped the Hon. Baronet who
brought forward the motion would withdraw it, more espe-
cially as the Hon. Baronet must see that all had been done by
bringing it forward which he could have desired.—( Hear.)
Captain CURTE IS asserted the strict honour and impar-
tiality of the Court-martial, and considered the censure passed
upon it as most undeserved.
Lord G. LENNOX begged to say that he for one had
not passed any imputation upon the motives of the Court-
martial.

Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the Hon. Baronet would not
press his motion.—( Cheers, and loud cries of " Divide !")
There was this essential objection to the motion, that while it
demanded an inquiry into the conduct of one man, it neces-
sarily implied a severe censure upon another. His conviction
was, that his Lordship was a most ill•used man—( Cheers)—
that lie had been convicted without being tried, and punished
without having any charge against him.—( Cheers.) He was
glad, however, that the injustice with which the present system
of Courts-martial was too frequently chargeable, had come
before the public ; for he hoped that it would lead to the re-
moval of the evil.—( Hear. )
Captain BERKELEY trusted tint, in justice both to Lord
Hill and Brudenell, the House would divide.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH expressed his readiness to
comply with the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, not to take up the time of tne House by dividing.
—( Vehement cries of " Divide, divide !")
The House then divided
Ayes
Noes

3'22

Majority '2Bo
RAILROAD BILLS.

Mr. HARI, AND moved that instructions be given to
Committees on Railroad Bills, to the ell et that the ex-
pense .of proving titles to estates through which railroads pass,
shall he borne by the proprietors of such railroads requiring
their production.
Mr. P. HOWARD seconded the motion.
On the motion being put, Mr. TOOKE and Mr. BROTHER-
TO x rose. •

Mr. BROTIIER,TON should move that the House do
adjourn.

Sir R. INGLIS thought that in the exhausted state of the
House, the further consideration of the motion ought to be
postponed.

Mr. A. TREVOR hoped that if the motion were not now
entertained by the 1-louse, it would be brought forward on a
future and very early day.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entreated
the Hon. Gentlemen to take the course recommended by the
lion. Member for the University of Oxford.
It was then arranged that the debate should be adjourned
till Thursday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
[louse adjourned at One o'clock.

On
Wednesda7 morning last, a coble, or fishing
bo3t, belonging to Whitburn, put to sea, with four men on
board—a father and son, and two brothers. It blew a strong
breeze, with roughish sea at the time. • The little barque
upset on coming towards the shore, and we are sorry to add all
bands perished. We understand the unfortunate men have
left four widows, and in all Moen fatherless ebildren.—Dur-
ham Chronicle.

The smallest sayings and doings of such a man
as Nelson will be read with avidity even in a work of fiction ;
!Ind, if there were no other reason, this circumstance would, in
itself, render Captain Chamier's new Talc of the Sea, " Ben
B,rileo," popular. Nor are there wanting other more novel-
bac accessories to render it a story of untiring interest— a good
plot, a little love, a great deal of roguery, sundry marriages,
fights, and frolics ; and scenes stirring, humorous, and pa-
thetic. The characters, too, have all the raciness and indivi-
duality which belong to portraits drawn from living originals ;
in short, to all who have any spark of patriotism, any touch of
uetry, any taste for nautical adventure in their composition,
we strongly recommend the perusal of " Ben Bram"—
orn Post.