The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-05 00:00:00

Hones. What else was the principle of the repeal of the Sta-
- making it felony to steal in bleaching grounds ?.. A whOle
new Code of Revenue Laws which had lately been framed was
upon that same principle of strengthening the Law by abating
its rigour. He would select one case for remark—that of
fraudulent Bankruptcies. The punishment of death had not
been taken from this crime because itewas considered to be one
of small importance, , but because The severity of the punish-
ment prevented the law from being carried into effect, and had
rendered it for the last twenty years a dead letter. It was on
that account that the infliction of capital punishment had been
taken away, for it could not be contended that fraudulent bank-
ruptcies were not worse in most cases than nineteen out of
twenty felonies that were punishable with death. In the case
of shoplifting, too, the sum had been raised from five shillings
to 151.- The ancient-defence of the law which punished capi-
tally stealing to the amount of five shillings was, that it was
necessary thus to. protect poor shopkeep,ers from the depreda-
tions to which they were exposed. This protection, however,
once considered to be so important, was now done away. A
small theft was no longer punished as formerly, the sum being,
-as he had already stated, raised from-five shillings to fifteen
pounds, at which precise sum the law valued the life of man. In
the time of his beloved and revered friend, Sir Samuel Romilly,
the Bills which, on his motion, had bee, n passed .through
that House, .had recognised the principle, that to give efficacy
to the laws, it was necessary to diminish the punishments al-
ready inflicted. A report to this effect had been made to,the
House, and this had so far been approved by the House, that
the Committee who made it had been re-appointed to inquire
into the subject, and called further evidence in support of the
principle they laid down. The opinion of the Hhiise had been
not less strongly manifested in the diacussions which had taken
plane on the punishment applied to cases of forgery. On such
cases of mere legislation it would be absurd to expect that
the same attendance would be given as on those occasions
which were calculated not only to interest the feelings, but to
excite the Passions of men • but the attendance on the occasions
alluded to was as full as he ever remembered to have seen on
any similar occasion, and a disposition had uncoiestionably
'been manifested
Jo' take the • panisament of 'death from the
crime of forgery, He therefore now called upon the House
to make ho new declaration, but .merely to assert with more
distinctness that which had already in effect received their
sanction. He intended to notice secondary punishments.—
Those opposed to .him were for considering these first, and
then proceeding to capital punish Men. He however thought
the capital punishments entitled to the first consideration, be-
cause the tht4rt held out of inflicting these he ,:dewed in part as
the cause of the. other defects of our system. lie could not do
better than repeat a sentiment which had been thrown out by'
an thin. Friend of his on the opposite side of the House, that
in dealing with this subject the burden og, making out a case
was riot thrown on them whn wished to 'diminish- capital pu-
niShments, so much 'as on those who wished to retain then.—
They could only be justified by necessity. An attack on the life.
of man could only be j-ustiliecl by that consideration which ulti-
mately made it resolve itself into a measure of self-defence.
It, was therefore for thdse whose seho defended the present laws
to make out a case that should establish the necessity orthem.
AnOther circumstance ought to have some effect on those who
considered this to be merely a question of sober common sense;
' he alluded to the mantle; in which the existing. laws were exe-
' cuted. The course at present pursued in this country he held
to be at variance With the common sense of mankind. He
charged against the administrators of the law of Englandethat
for the last century and a half it had been cliferentfrom that of
all other countries; whether in a state of civilization or of bar-
. barisrn—whether their 'laws were mild or severe. +All other
countries had,acted -on this principle, that the sentences
awarded were to 'be executed. Some exceptions were made in
. extraordinary cases, 'bit the rule was to carry the sentences into
execution. We on the Contrary did not carry the sentences
,awarded by ourlaws into effect. Out of 200 Or more that were ca-
. pitally convicted, riot more than 20 suffered; or one twentieth
part of the who:del-lumber cast. The -principle on which we
: acted was the very antipode of that which had been adopted
every where else. Yet our system-had been the subject of end-
, less panegyric, and its -paradoxical character induced some
eminent men to raise their voices -in its praise. From the de-
lightful surprise. excited by their efforts to defend that which
had appeared incapable of• extenuation, it had'attached soars.
, men to this paradox, and inspired more admiration than could
. 'be moved by a' More homely love of truth. Mr. M'indham
(whom he had the honour of knowing intimately) from his spirit
of chivalry, singularity of character, and love of ancient esta-
blishments, was induced to embark his talents in the defence
of our system. Dr, Paley had done the same. But the pane-
gyrics constantly bestowed on the laws .of England had not
made him a convert `to the tipiniona of those by whom they,
were -pronounced. Though he (Sir J. Mackintosh) was not-
one of those who constantly employed themselves in sing-
ing the excellence of our 'laws, yet he trusted that he ad-
mired as much as any man could do, the fundamental print
ciples on which they Were 'fotinded. , He would co this
subject- refer to the language held by our immortal -Poet,
Milton, in his Areopag:tica, addressed to the Lords and
Cominons of .Poigland. Ile might here remark that it had been
Milton's glory to be 'the first to defend a free press and an
unfettered 'conscience. He had said with respect to our system,
and the 'praises of which it was then the subject—" They who
freely magnify what has-beeri nobly done; and fear not to de-
clare as freely what might be done better, give you-the truest
covenant that their highest praise is not flattery, and theii
honest advice is- yoUr best praise." -This* was said. with re-
ference to the' unqualified. eulogia then pronounced on one
system ;„ then, before the 7th of William -and. Mary had
• passed, which first granted to persons accused of. High
treason a copy' of the indictment on which they were to be
ttied, and a list of the witnesses to be brought against them,
and before the Ist of Queen Anne, which allowed witnesses for
the prisoners to be sworn, without which it was of little use
bringing them, into 'Court. Though such was the state of the
law at that period, yet the praises bestowed on it were as
many, and the cry against innovation' as loud as ever it had"
been since. A Valuable writer on the law, Mr. Sergeant
Hawkins, in his "Pleas of the Crown," had said, " Those
who take a- superficial, view of the Criminal Laws can
charge them with unnecessary rigour." -But would the House
believe it, when. this was said, the laws against wits:lip-aft were
in force, and witches in every assize town were as regularly
burned as felons were hanged ? Such praise had continued to
be given to our-code, though within thirty or forty years from
the time at which he was. speaking, a woman far petty treason
was to be harried to death, and a man who would f-?ot plead
was to' be pressed to death, unless tortnre extorted from him
some plea. What he would- now propose would, go but to
prune and train the laws, not to plough them up and plant new
ones. He wished to act on a plan that would sustain and 'up-
hold 'the fundamental principles of British law. Nothing
had been more derided in modern' times than the idea of 'lay-
ing down a - certain scale of punishments. But who, were
the' authors of that scale' of punishments ! Why, those who
framed Magna Charta six lyndred years ago. They 'had
laid down'in that thirty times confirmed act a scale of punish-
ments, itnd if he called the attention of the House to' the
words of that law of laws, -he hoped he should not shock the
ears of the House, though he was well 'aware that of late
10-fad becoMe unpopular. It was there stated, that " Liter
heino"—sthe House were aware thatonost of the punishments
then inflicted consisted of fines,)—"Libor 11 07120 amercet pro par-
no delicto secundum modum *lied; et pro magno dcligto secun-
&cm magnitudinem delicti, salvo rontenemento suovillanus etiam
'esdem modo amercet salvo waynagio nw " Here then it was seen
that the protection designedeo be aflbrded by Magna Charta,
extended to the very slaves. The modern administration of our
laws, he charged with being indirect Opposition to Magna
Chorea. He would ask, was it agreeable to that thirty times'
confirmed Charter to put a man todeath for forging a 1/. note,
or for cutting down a 'tree in an avenue or park ? Did the
Barons in the 13th century think, that under Magna Chdrta
the punishment of death would be inflicted for such-offences
by the Judges and lawyers in the 19th century ? He then
adverted to the law which " had been 'passed against all fb-
reigners in this country, which waft soon to come before them,
and which some Gentlemen in that House were well disposed
to keep out of sight as much as possible,' and proceeded to re-'
mark on what had been said by Sir Matthew Hale on the sub-
ject of capital. punishments. That Learned Judge had said
that some were of opinion that the death ought not -to be in-
flicted for theft, but in almost all countries theft; under aggra-
vated circumstances; was so punished, but in this country it
rested with the Juries, and the least possiblediscretion was left
to the Judges. How great was the rdvolution• tvhich 150 years
had inade in our laws, since now butlittlewas left to the Juries,
And such large discretion given to the Judges. But at the
•
time to which he referred, the, majority of the felonies now'in
existence were not knoWn toy our law. It was riot then a-capi.
tal'offence to steal to the value of forty shillings in a dwel-
ling-house. Forgery; sheep stealing, and cattle-stealing, were
not crimes to bepurffahed with death. He would next inquire
what was the result of the deviation' from our ancient system,
which he had shown to have taken place. On this point the
proof was so melancholy and so -decisive, that he need not
dWell on it. From 1805 to 1809, the-average number cf capi-
tal convictions in a year was 381. The average numbers of
the last five years was 1,260, 'being an increasa in 'the propor-
' fion' of, three and a half to one in the shOrt Space of ten years.
Making a deduction of the half for the increase Of our po-
pulation, it would then, appear 'that the average number of
convictions" had been trebled within the pa-riot-file-had men-
tioned. This fact afforded a prima facie presumption against
the system,. under which, crime had increased to an extent,
and with a rapidity which he believed to be unexampled in
the history of mankind. He would now compare the
working of our code with that of other countries, and doing
this, he thought the conclusion which he must come to was,
that, our, national character had degenerated (which he did *pet

• '•
think any foreigner would say he believed to be the case),
or that our penal code was not what it ought to be. In pro- I
portion as it should be . contended that our criminal code
was not defective, it Must appear that our national cha-
racter had declined. He noticed the Petitions which had
been sent from the Jurors of Middlesex, and from various parts
of the kingdom in faVour of a revision of our criminal code, and
proceeded to shovi that severe punishmen were but ill calcu-
hlateel to prevent those offences against ts
which they were di.
rected. ,Where punishments considered infamous had been
inflicted, they had not unfrequently been turned into tri-
Umphs. Those who in some instances had been doomed to dread-
ful punishments for acting according :to their consciences
and their faith, had found victory and triumph where
.tyranny
had intended to consign them to agony and shame. From this
it resulted that the efficacy of all Penal Codes depended on
the moral 'feeling which they excited, and this he considered
one of the. most beautiful ordinations. of nature. Severe pu-
nishments excited abhorrence, gained for the criminal sympa-
thy and applause, and caused the laws and the Judges to be
loaded with execration. Death under such circumstances was
but death. 'Those engaged in a predatory war against the com-
munity calculated on the loss of 'a number of lives in 'every
campaign, and from custom the parties feared death no more than
the soldier who honourably fought the battles of his country; and
all that awful solemnity was taken away, which would attach.
to capital punishments, if sparingly and properly inflicted. If
it were said that he held the language of a theorist, he should
beg to vindicate himself by referring to'what had fallen froth a
practical man on that subject. In 1796, a person whose name
was still' distinguished in the profession of the law, Mr. Ser-
Jeant Adair, who had then been for 20 years Recorder of Lon-
don, had said, " The complexion of our law.is too sanguinary.'
It is painful to reflect that the punishment of death is not re-
served for the crimes of murder and treason." Was he (Sir J.
Macinntosh) then to 'be considered as a visionary when lie
pressed on the House that which fell far short of the principle
thus contended ferhy a Learned Person who hall been for 20
years Recorder of London. Two circumstances at the present
time were common in almost every country in the civilized
-world. One of these was a disposition to reform their
Criminal Code—the other to introduce a system of, political
equality among all religious • sects. Russia had king since .
adopted these. principleS. Austria, not the worst Government
in the world, but the greatest enemy to all human improve-
ments, was'disposed to do the same ; and ':.similar line of po-
licy seems about to be pursued in all countries, from the inex-
perienced legislation of Spain and Portugal to the matured
wisdom and sober policy of the United States of America.
The same -principles seemed to animate all public bodies in
the civilized world, with the exception of one branch of the '
' British Legislature, whichhe should not name.—(Hear, hear !)
A milder code of laws had been adopted in France under the
auspices of Buonaparte, who had taken an active part in fram-
ing them. This act would transmit his naive to posterity with
a lustre distinct from that which grew out of war and conquest. j
By favour of one of the Peers of France, lie had before him
a cOpy of a Report, which sewed the working' of the new
Code. That Code he was deSirous of Comparing with the Code
of England. In the one there were 223 capital felonies ; 'in the
Other six. These six were the following :—high Treason,
which was technically defined in terms differing from those used'
in this country. Murder, which was well defined. Arson.
Forgeries of notes of the Bank of France and Government-
securities. Coining and Theft, under some of the following
circumstances:-that it be done in -the night ; that it be per=
petrated 'by two or more men ; that the' 'parties are armed
that 'a house is boken open, or entered under the cover of
legal authority; Or that arms be either used, or threatened to
be used. Under the -French Code, a seventeenth Part of the
offences specified were capital. Under • the English Code,
about a seventh 'were punishable with death. In France,
there was no transportation, and about four-fifths . of the
punishments inflicted consisted of imprisonment and hard
labour. 'ln England, the number of transportations were
about one fourth—the punishments by imprisonment and hard
labour amounted also to one fourth. The mean amount of the
English population during 'the period to which his calcula-
tions referred, he would take at 11,000,000. The mean amount
of the French population, during the same period, might be
estimated, at 27,000,000, being about two and a half- to one.
Such being the number, it appeared that the convictions in
England- had in the first five years doubled those which had
taken place in France, being five times as many according to
the number of the people. In the five years at the end of the
period referred to, the contictions 'in England cmadrupled
those in France, amounting to ten times the -number in pro-
portion to the
.population. In 'France the average number
of convictions, in the first three years, was two hundred and
ninety-four. The average number iii the last three years, 303,
being a variation of only nitie, In England the average num-
ber at the first mentioned period was 349. In the latter it had
risen to 1249. , This- increase,' though part of it might be -
ascribed to the distress under which the people had groaned
and continued to groan, lie argued, was also caused. in part by
the character of our Penal Code: 'The' situation of France,
twiceinvaded, the disbanding of a large airily, and the-horrors
of a thirty years war, would have led them to expect a diffe-
rent result. That France had escaped the' fatal increase of
crime which had been witnessed in England, must he ascribed
partly to the improved Criminal Code which had been adopted
in that country. In this country, from the year 1805 to the
year 1809, whieli was 'considered a period of prosperity, when
the Chancellor of the Exchequer' was in his Paradise, and is-
suing paper dreamed that it was wealth, the convictions had
increased - from- 339 to 549, being.nezirly an increase of two
thirds, before the pressure of severe distress had been felt, and
b.efere, the adoption of the Code -Na,nolairr. The Honourable
and Learned' Gentleman argued at considerable length--on the
difference between the two systems acted upon in England
and France., The laws of France were 'intended to be exe-
cuted—those of England were not' to be carried-into execution.
Tie object of all law was to repress disorder and to detect
crime:- The best mode of accorriplishing this was to diminish
the severity of punishment, so that men of humanity would
he anxious to see the laws carrietl. into execution. Then
the ends. of justice would be perfectly answered,'no system
of espionage. (which did 'more harm than good) would• be
wanted; and that duty would be well fulfilled by men of virtue,
which- was now ill perforMed by vice and-depravity. " Ile .did
not disapprove of transportation 'for life, but he objected
to transportation for a term of years. The system aeted upon
-in New South Wales was imperfect. 'The plan had been
lately adopted after the separation of America from England,
land sufficient care fiad, hot beeintaken to form a moral basis
j for the colony. He suggested some' improvements which he
conceived might be carried into effect. He -then noticed the
state of our prisons, lamenting the* imperfect classification
which, had as yet been effected, and which merely keeping
felons by themselves, exposed .a man who had only offended
by cutting dowh a tree to be the companion of a parricide.
Till a better classification should be accomplished,- our prisons
would continue to be -schools for thievess-our Game Laws,
Poor Laws, and Revenue, Laws would people the jails, and
the jails would prepare those confined in them for the gal-
lows: He then pronounced an eloquent eulOgium on the'
efforts of those virtuous persons and benevolent females
'who had devoted their- time 'to the' iMprovement of our pri-
sons. Ile considered it
.to be 'a memorable circumstance
that the importance of their valuable services had been
recognized in a late Bill, and comparing the conduct 'of
those ladies.who thus humanely employed them Selves with that
of the females known in Cgtholic countries under the endearing
appellation of " Sisters of Charity,"' he sheaved that even
their meritorious lability; were greatly surpaSsed by , those of
the. Protestant SiSters of. Charity. He particularly remark-
ed off the unwearied efforts of one Lady who had distin-
guished herself in this way, and described with much energy
and feeling the gratification he had experienced from vi-
siting a prison, and witnessing the effects-of
.her well-direct-
ed efforts to relieve the, wretched and reform the vicious.—
He came away with that admiration 'and deep feeling which
it was impossible that those who possessed the least humanity
should refuse at witnessing the exertions of this female
Howard. Those who performed these honourable works had
done their best to teach penitence, religion, and Morality
amongit the victims -of crime; but the Criminal Law met
them at every Point,' and opposed an impenetrable barrier to
to their efforts, rooting out and destroying the seeds of bene-
volence wherever they endeavoured to sow theni. Qur laws
were the protection of crime, and made people shrink from en.
forcing them in proportion as they were humane. This was
enough to establish most satifactorily the foundation and basis
of his argnMent, which consisted in' the unparalleled and cruel
severity of our laws. The Hon. and 'Learned Gentleman then
concluded, amidst the cheers of the House, by moving the fol-
lowing Resolution : ,

" That this House shall take under its- early consideration hi
the next Session of Parliament, the means of increasing the ef=
ficacy of our Criminal. Law, by abating its undue rigour, and of
measures for strengthening the Police of the country ; together
with measures for rendering transportatiomand imprisonment
more effectual for the purposes of example and reformation."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL commenced by claiming
the indulgence of the House, under the extraoril,,nary disad,
'vantage of following his Hon. and Learned Friend upon the
present occasion. He trusted that he should not be considered
averse from any reformation-of our Criminal Laws, be-cause he
opposed the resolution now submitted to the House. His
Honourable and 'Learned Friend should remember, that all
the reformations which had hitherto been effected in the code
of criminal punishments' .. had been originated by eminent in
dividuals connected, with . . the profesSion of the law ; anlie
therefore conceived that they did not merit the stigma which
-had been cast upon them. - He was convinced that the spirit of
our law only annexed capital punishments to offences which
imperatively called for them ; and if any particular case were
pointed out to him of a contrary nature, he Should be willing

Ito repeal the lama and, relieve the statute-book of its presence.
The resolution of his Hon. and Learned Friend would go to
cast a stigma upon the whole-Criminal Cade' and place the Go-
vernment of the, country and its Criminal laws in a situation
where it ought never to remain. It woultl be sending forth a,
sweeping censure upon, the laws under which they could not'
lie carried into practice. What had been the course which his
Honsatul Learned .Friend had hitherto adopted upon this im-
portant question ? He first moved for a Committee to in-
quire into the efficacy of capital
_punishments. This was
granted, and the Honourable and Learned Member was
a most active member of the Committee. When the Report
came before the, House it recommended that in some cases
capital punishments should be abolished and transportation
substituted in their places. His Hon. and Learned. Friend
then brought in Bills founded upon such recommendations,
in same of which the House acquiesced; in Others they did not.
He now came forward to call upon the House to pronounce a
sweeping condemnation of the entire ,code. He must confess
that it appeared to him as if his, Hon. and Learned Friend
was bound to have pointed out specific cases which demanded
reformation, and the measures intended to effect it. If- he
might be allowed to say so, he thought his Honourable and
Learned Friend would have taken the more discreet course
if he had brought forward the measures recommended in the
,Report of_ the Committee, so as enable the House to judge
and de:ermine upon their practicability: Itwas quite impossible
for a Select Committee.up stairs, much less a Committee of the
whole House; to examine all the criminal laws of the country
in one night, or in one Session. His Hon. and Learned Friend
had argued- the effect of the existing laws was to increase
the number of capital crimes. He drew. tnis inference from
no other facts than the prosecutions and convictions, and upon
this subject he did consider the argument of his Hon and
Learned Friend to be a little inconsistent. He admitted that
there were some, cases which required the infliction of capital
punishment, and amongst these were burglaries. But it would
be found that these offences increased in the same proportion
as the others; therefore, if the argument were good in one case,
it was good in both. His Hon. and Learned Friend has also
argued that the cases in which capital sentences were generally
given, with the certainty of minor punishments being inflicted,
were less efficacious in presenting crime than if the minor pu-
nishment alone were annexed. Butwould any man say that
there would not be more terror excited where death was pos-
sible, than if the offender were certain that it would not be in-
flicted ? The Hon. and. Learned Gentleman then went into a
comparison of the prosecutions and convictions for different
crimes, to shew that the increase of burglaries had been equal
to that of other offences. With regard to what his Honour-
able and Learned- Friendhad said upon the Criminal Law of
Prance; he would ask him whether he was prepared to im-
port into this .country the whole system of. the French pre,
ventive police ? If he was not, it was impossible to make any
comparison between the numbers of criminal prosecutions
and capital punishments in the two countries. The House
could not agree in the proposed resolution. without embo-
dying the whole system of police, the state of prison disci-
pline, and secondary punishments. And as to the Code Napo-
leon, which his Honourable and Learned Friend had so highly
eulogised, they must take all the matters he had pointed
out into 'their consideration, before they made any com-
parisons upon the number of criminal prosecutions. At
a time when a Gentleman had- been sent •out expressly'
, for the purpose of collecting information as to the state of cri-
minals who were transported, at a time when a Report was
expected- from the Committee upon the state of the Police,
and also one upon the subject of prison discipline, his Ho-
nourable and Learned-Friend had thought proper to call upon
the House to vote this resolution. The resolution pledg-
ed the House "to take under its early consideration in the
next Session of Parliament the means of increasing the
efficacy of the criminal law by abating its
,undue rigour."
Upon this point he should observe, that when any cases were
brought forward which-proved this undue rigour, he should he
ready to assist in abating it. The Resolution then spoke
of " measures for strengthening. the Police," and it was well
known that a Committee were sitting-for that purpose at, the
present time. It then went on " together with measures for
rendering transportation and imprisonment more effectual for.
the purposes of example and reformation.". These objects, lie
contended, were also under the most serious and earnest con-
sideration of the Government, and he considered the whole to
be perfectly unnecessary. He hoped, therefore, that his Hon.
and Learned Friend would postpone his resolution until he was
prepared to follow it up by the . practical measures which he
conceived necessary. Ile should vote against the motion, be-
cause he thought the time ill-chosen and not opportune; and
that, under all the circumstances of the case, the resolution
itself was unnecessary. It would only have the effect of
placing the Administration of the law' in an odious situation,
and one in which it ought never to stand. He should not meet
it by a, direct negative, but he begged leave to move the pre-
vious question.
Mr. F. BUXTON, after eulogizing the speech of Sir James
Mackintosh, said he was ready to concede to the Attorney-Ge-
neral that the possibility of suffering death was an additional
terror 'to prevent the commission of crime. But he had in his
possession the Returns from Ireland, which proved the inef-
ficacy of that law altogether. • The number of persons tried
for crimes not capital was 6000, of which 3000 were convict-
ed. The number of trials for capital crimes was 2,300, of
which only, two hundred .were found guilty. Thus, upon
the former, the convictions amounted to one half, while in the
latter there• was only a proportion of one-seventh. The
chance of conviction upon k capital charge was that of four to
one ; arid, upon a charge not capital,. as one to three. This
was the same in England, and it was found to be so in Ame-
rica; before the mitigation of their penal code. In the year
before that Act, the proportion of acquittals • was one-half,
and the following year only one in seven. It was a fact,
that there were a very great many. more capital punishments
inflicted in England than in France, and it was therefore ne-
cessary for them to examine why it was so. The Hon. Member
then contended that transportation was not a punishment, but
rather a bounty upon cruise. For this he had the authority of.
Lord Liverpool, Lord Sidmouth, Lord Eldon, and Lord Ellen-
borough ; and he had also that of the principal convicts them-
selves. He had in his hand a letter from a person named Clark, W
to his wife in Kent, dated New South ales, where lie had
been sent as a convict. He would read the letter, which was a
confidential and private one-(a laugh)—with the permission
of the House, and with the permission of the person to whom
it was written. The letter stated that Providence had taken
care of the winter as 1w always did.—(A laugh.)—lle had
great plenty provided for•him, and a pound' note in his pocket
whenever he wanted it. The winter in that country was hotter
than-the summer—(A loud laugh.)—than the summer in Eng-
land. They never: had ice thicker than a shilling, and the
peaches ran wild about the country—(Loud -laughter.)—and
the grapes hung in clusters upon the rocks. He concluded by
saying, that it (being transported) was the best thing he ever
done. He {Mr.-Buxton) wont(' ask the House if this were a
descriptionlikely to deter :rom' the commission of crime, or to
excite towards it ? There was another' case of a convict who
wrote home that he was • quite happy, that lie was servant to
Squire-Love, who every body thought a very clever fellow. Now
he happened to know something of this Squire Love, which he
would relate to the House. He was a man who embezzled
large sums of money from his employers in the country, and
had made clear off with it to a vessel just , going tb sail from
one of our ports. Here he was taken and committed to New
gate. But the severity of our criminal code was his protec
tion : all his offences appeared to be capital ones, and has pro-
secutors were about to set him at liberty, when it was disco-
vered that he might be charged with the minor offence. He
was convicted and transported to New. South. Wales, notwith-
standing that he (Mr. Buxton) went to the Home Secretary's
Office, and recommended that he might be sent on board the
hulks. The consequence was, that he - carried off the stolen
property, and now lives in the style described by his servant,
and was reputed a very clever Gentleman; which no doubt he
was. , The Hon. Member proceeded to enforce this argument,
and concluded by supporting the Resolution.
Mr. T. COURTENAY could not go along with his Hon.
and Learned Friend in the propriety of the resolution: If there
was anyone subject more than another, upon which it was de-
sizable not to set the public mind afloat, and then leave it foe
12 months, it was the one before the House. The principles laid
down in the resolution had been -assented to, and acted upon
by the House, and it was therefore unnecessary that they should
again pledge themselves in the manner proposed, and being
unnecessary, he held it to be mischievous. He was quite sure
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was sincere in the opinion
that the measures he proposed were necessary, and it was be-
cause he (Ms. C.) felt as conscientiously that they were unne-
cessary, that be should vote against them. Whether the va-
rious measures alluded to by the resolution were desirable or
not, he was quite sure that they would not be forwarded one
Step by the proposition before the House. A Committee had
recommended the introduction of several measures, which. had
been sanctioned by the House. It would then be advisable to
leave the 'subject to the investigation of a Committee, and he
expressed a hope that the Hon. Baronet would not presi his
motion to a division.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the duties of the office he held
were so deeply connecetd with the motion, that he could not
permit the question to pass without a few observations. He
concurred in the points stated by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, and respected all those who had been engaged in the ame-
lioration a prison-discipline. No persons had been more mis-
represented. He had sat with Gentlemen upon inquiry into
prison-discipline, and was ready to bear testimony that their
objects were not only humane, but that there was an inten-
tion to introduce improvements into prison regulations. He
thought improvements might be made in prison-discipline which
would lead to the reducing of crime. It was his intention on
Friday to submit to the House a Bill for tie purpose of ap,

plying a remedy to the evil arising froth improper discipline ill
prisons, and was it possible he could agree to a resolution
which deferred to next Session a subject which . ought to be
decided next week ? With respect to transpottation he
sidered it a question .of great importance which ought to
be fairly considered. It was a question which must affect
prison discipline; because, if they.. made transportation 3
secondary punishment, and increased punihment in Pri-
sons for minor offences, a premium, as it were, would ,` ~e
held out for, the commission or transportable offences. WI ;',
respect to a More effectiVe Rplice, he was of opinion that I
ought to be made more preventive. He did not !neap to
tn-
troduce a system of espionage.; but he thought a syste'll,
preventive police might be established in the Metropolis
great benefit to tbe •public. The adoption of such a syste;',;
was of so much importance, that he could not consent to
postpone it to next Session. In a few dayi he should -lire;
Pre-
sent a Report from the Committee on Police, and he pledged
himself to present a plan for the improvement -of the poliGoe.
With respect td the 'increased efficiency of the '' c
.h'e-
persiraded attention could be paid to the subject during the
present Session,and it would be hardly fair to gdopt a resolu-
tion which postponed the consideration of the subject until the
House had seen the plan. Something ought to be done 03
the subject of transportation, but he was oblied to defer thc,
consideration of that important question until he saw the re'
port of a Gentleman whohad been sent to make inquirl at
New South Wales. Whilst he .was on that topic he 1111g4t.
mention what had occurred to him with a view to the bettn-_,
employment of convicts. 'The Hon. and Learned Gentleultei
had said some plan might be adopted for sending convicts t°
British settlements. That was
.his opinion before he heard
such a proposition in that House. It occurred to him it ring'lt _
be proper to send to Bermuda
_a certain-number of convicts to
be employed on public works, taking, security for moral behg-
viour. The Works of Bermuda were capable of employilg„
during several years a certain number of convicts. H"
e 0
mentioned this to prove thesubject had not escaped his atten:
bon, and as soon as the report from New South Wales Os
made, he should bring it before the HOuse. It would nOt
advisable at that period of the Session to condemn the Grim ;e
Laws, without they were in a situation to propose infinedia'd
remedy. Learned When the Hon. and Gentleman shout
t,'o
bring '
the subject fairly under discussion next Session, -
should be ready to enter upon it.
Mr. C. WILSON opposed the resolution.
n a
Mr. C. WYNN rose amidst a loud cry of "
made a few observations, under repeated expressions of tri;:;
tience, and a desire for the result. We could only -collect, t"
he opposed the motion. ,
Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in reply, was ready to concede the
part of his resolution, which related to prison discipline. to
statement of the Right lion. Gentleman that he intended
bring before the House that subject in the course of the prof
sent Session, would supersede the necessity he had been on av
of introducing the subject. The lion. and Learned Gentien,,
consented to leave prison discipline out of his resolution, %,
defended the remainder, and declared his intention to take
sense of the House on it.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division ; the nilmb3rs
were-

For the Resolution . . . . . 117
Against it . . . 101
Majority in favonrof the motion . ---IG
THE NAVIGATION BILL.
',a'
Mr. WALLACE moved that the above Bill be read a du

time.

Mr. DAVENPORT was of opinion that the Bill was he'
ly injurious to the silk-manufacturers of this country. lie

the m
wished the promoters: of it bad attended a good old say'
silke wWoeulll alone." oe n '
imported'
If
into
measure
thisea
•
in such quantities as to produce a glut of the market, Wch
11.1
would necessarily prove very detrimental to our home rtl3'
nufacturers. -He hoped 'the House would take into consi-
deration the large sums which had been invested in the s
manufactures of ,this-couptry, and the great number of in
viduals to, which these manufactures gave employment. It w 3
countryrem'eie t
Italy
Pass'
calculated that between 4 and MAO persons were employed
-5,
in the•silk trade, most of whom would, if the Bill were to Vrhe
be thrown upon the poor rates for support. t°
Objecting
nie
Bill upon these grounds, he moved that it be read a third tt
this day six Months. • that
' Mr. ROBERTSON also opposed the Bill, on the groundtry.
it would prove injurious to the general industry of the oNli"oci
To the mercantile interest it was particularly objectionable ' g of
it was calculated to put a stop to
,our intercourse with s°°;.-ke
the most distant ports of the globe. He ridiculed Wll3'
e%.
designated the romantic notion of making this country set if 10
ample of a liberal policy to other nations. He was of ofinnotaa
that we should gain no equivalent for concessions that W ac
make.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY expressed himself hostile to
the
Bill. ,
•
Mr. LENNA RD was glad to perceive, that one of the clauses
of the Bill afforded permission for trading between this coupev_
try and the South American Colonies, but he at the same
regretted that the Independence of those States had not
formally recognized by the British Government.
pros
Mr. LyTTLETON wished the Bill to pass its r"-
stage. no°
Sir M. W. RIDLEY opposed the Bill. Under the rot
system of taxation which prevailed in.this country, it vlos_ther
possible that our 'merchants could compete with those of
nations... - • • allu"
Mr. WALLACE maintained that no injury to the to
facturers of the country would be effected b the Bill. be-
Sir J. BOUGHEY could not support the Amendment,aito,
cause it would have the effect of getting rid of the Dill r, al-
gether, which, his opinion, contained much good matte
though some parts of it were objectionable. d bi
Mr. CANNING concurred in the sentiments delivereCo.
the Hon. Member who hadpreceded him. He could not
1,05
it
sent to give a vote against the whole of tbe Bill.
many respects an excellent measure,. and he thought his, yip&
Hon. Friend was entitled to the thanks of the country for ;01
brought it forward. The importation of silk from .13t7 that
had lately increased very- much, greatly to the benefiti•reetli
country. The present measure would therefore run utn
against a vast interest in England, an interest that had Ow -uirea
a magnitude so fearful -as, if at all interfered with, req were
the most delicate hand 'to touch it. If an exception 110.
not made on this head (so we understood the Kietept of
nourabie Gentleman) he would vote for the amend'
his Hon—Friend the Member for Staffordshire third
but if that point were conceded, he would vote for the
reading T.
the Bill. for the
Mr. . WILSON thought it would be much better
country if the Bill did not pass at present. ati°l3s
Mr. ANSON did not see the necessity for making alte,to so
in laws which had been so long established, and from Iv' were
much benefit had been derived.- He hoped his sentirnents,4o of
sufficiently iiberal ; but he did not understand that sPe.'ye
be-
liberality which would allow every other country to recelhould,
nefit and emolument at the expence of England. Ile '
therefore vote against the Bill. . ore.'
Mr. EGERTON did not see the necessity for this 11?e!' of
Trade was, now going on very well, and he could not 5e on
reason for interfering with it. Why not suffer it t
flourishing as it had done for some time? .0,1
Wag
Mr. DICKINSON observed, Wats very large cor`ladig'
employed in the trade now carried on for the raw silk of •
winch was better than Italian silk. tole'
Mr. RICARDO Said, that the trade in question, thou „a to
scribed to be an improving trade, was in tact acknowleub
he a bad trade : and the proof of its being a bad tra
AS
.eo be found in' the fact that it required special protectn,
it was'nurtured by protection, he, on a point of priori get'
'stead of being glad that it increased, felt considerable redo-
When the Agriculturists called for protection, the Maillia file
turers argued that it should not be granted; and why shoittio
latter now call for the extension of the same principle to, said,
—The Right HOnourable Gentleman (Mr. Wallace) , the
that England should show to other countries, even at a 105.2,00..
example of opening a free trade, as if the adoption of the
ciples of free trade were calculated to sacrifice the interests
country. . Now it was on the perfect conviction that tl,lf,joio;
doh of those principles would be highly beneficial to (ova
and from •no other feeling whatsoever, that he soPPeoun"
them.,—(Hear !)—He was sure if they showed to other_ould
tries that England benefited by the systern,those countries ',
t' Ills
ha
be eager to adopt it. The Right Hon. Gentleman used,
hearty, thanks for the measures he had heretofore intrr: sole
and he hoped he would continue to persevere in the
course.
cunt
n
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE defended the system of Pc 9.1 P
-itte
duties, and observed that, oat, as a proof of their utility,o,_..ished
only necessary to observe that British trade bad
most when they were adopted. This and the oth elicited thee
which had emanated from the Board of Trade, had ;;,ust saY:
thoseenat throughout the country. He rice get"
that plans were undigested, and would proo
severalermischief-in the country. He had conversed with
.nd they
sons who were deeply conversant with this subject, whic.
'had all expressed their astonishment at the measur believed
had been sanctioned by the Board of Trade. Ire once°
that commerce lied arrived at its highest pitch in conseq. „.,t it
the measures devised by the wisdom of our ancestors
was now the fashion to say that commerce, had attained_thirear,
sent commanding eminence in spite of those measures% tale,
hear !)---He thought this a most absurd opinion ; allet