The Sun.
London, England, 1807-02-28 00:00:00

FINANCE.

The Earl of WARIMK•rose, pursuant to no-
tice, to draw the attention of the. House to a subject
to which he had -alluded on a former day. It was a
subject dry arid difficult iii its nature; and from the
little practice and pretension he had as a Parlia-
mentary Speaker, he should not be expeaed to ex-
pand or enliven it very much. In the present criti-
cal state; however, of this country, and the civilized
world, when no rational hope could be entertained
of any solid and permanent Peace till France was dis,
abled from pursuing her system of aggrandisement
and plunder, and when the protraaion of the War
must every day aggravate the hurthens which already
weighed so heavily upon the people, he felt it his duty
to exert what poor abilities he possessed to alleviate
and equalize those berthens, as the Most effect al
means of enabling the Country to prosecute the cUn-
.test with vigour and elfea, for it was not easy
to foresee its termination, and the logger it conti-
nued, the heavier must the!burt hen of taxation press'
upon the people. Indeea, in his bpittion, it woutal
be impossible to go on under the Financial Sys.:
tern at present pursued by his Majesty's 6o-
vernment ; and, under thet convi6tion, he had
turned his mind to the subjea, and had. happily hit
upon one hitherto wholly withought of and untouch-
ed, which, if adopted, would furnish the only fair
mode of taxation, that of equally and equitably-clic
tributing the pressure of the present burthens on the
shoulders of all his Majesty's Subjects. The Nqble
Lord here took a Paper out of his pocket, and ob-
'served, that if the House would allow him to read
it, they Nvould find his System develope: in fewer
words than he could otherwise convey its bearings
and tendency to their Lordships. His Lordship then
proceeded to read the. Paper, and to shew that the
drift of his system was to tax capital ; that property
could not be accurately defined ; that it could be de-
scribed only by its sign, labour; and to labour only,
as its sole source, was all property to be referred.
This should, therefore, be the criterion of all H
taxation, and not income or property, which
was now made the chief obje4t of taxation...-.
To illustrate this Position, the Noble Lord entered
into , a variety of calculations, founded on the
amount of the population, and of the expenditure of
the country. The population he took at twelve mil-
lions and a half for Great Britain, and the expendi-
ture at above thirteen hundred millions annually.
He divided the population into classes, who expend-
ed troni sixpence to twenty shillings per day ;
and entered into calculations to prove that, by
a tax of ten shillings only per cent. on that ex-
penditure, there might be raised thirteen Mil-
lions and a half, 'which is two millions more than
is now raised by the Property Tax, which is uni- •
versally felt to be unequally burthensome and-op-
pressive, while the portion which he assessed on each
individual would scarcely, if at all, be telt. The
Noble Lord would not detain the House by enter-'
ing minutely into the proofs, as they would be beta
ter undeeoood by. referring to-the Paper; which he
should now lay on the table, and which he moved
to be referred to a Committee to consider and report.
Leer/. GRENVILLE observed, that on account
of its informality, the Motion could not he-enter-
tained by, the House ; for the Paper, to which the
Noble Earl had alluded, was not regularly before the
House, and therefore could not be made the subjeet-
!of discussion and investigation. He was convinced
That the Noble Earl was- a&uated by the purest sense
of duty to the Public, in submitting his plan to the
House ; but, upon consideiation, he was equally
convinced that the Noble Earl and the House must
von perceive , that such a system was wholly im-
practicable. In point of theory, no doubt, it was
simple ano comprehensive; butall the financial know-
ledge and experience which a length of wars had ac-
quired, only tended to prove, that when such systems
were attempted to be brought into watt ice, they
were attended with ten times more difficulty and in-
convenience than those which they were intended
to displace. So far from that boasted simplicity being
conducive to facilitate the collection, and enlarge
the amount of the revenue, it was found necessary,
as in the Property Tax, to vary the principle of it
into a multiplicity of modes of operation, in order to
get at the amount of what property could be made
.liable to it.
lord-Waawtex would not allow that his Plan
would weigh more heavily on the poorer classeS ;
on the contrary, it would alieEt the employers only,
net the employed.
Lord SILLKINK reminded the Noble Earl, that
.7hen he computed the population of the country at
twelve millions and a half, he took into the account
-women and children, who were not supposed to
centribute.
Lord Wattwxcx contended, that he meant it only
to affeEt then.
On the Motion for referring the Paper ro a Corn- .
mince, Lords Gazervrnoz and HOLLAND again ob-
ljeaed to its irregularity, and suggested to amend
alie,Motioo thus, that it be referred to a Committee
to consider of the best mode thk can be devised for
increasing the ReVeeue.
The euesoon was them .put von this • Motion, and
• .: .A ~, : , ,

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
FRIDAY, FEB. 27.
A Ballot took place for a Committee to try and
determine the inerits of the Petition complaining
of the Eleetiotand Return for theßorough of Wick,
in Scotland. rhe following Gentlemen were ap-
pointed on, the Committee :
fames Shaw, Esq. R. E. D. Grosvenor, Esq.
Thomas Brook, Esq. Sir Win. Middleton, Ban.
Henry Thornton, Esq. Henry Fane, Esq.
Benjamin Hobhouse, Esq. R. Sharpe,' Esq.
Wigrarn, Esq. R. H. Bradshaw, Esq.
Thomas Baring. Esq. Lord H. Bernard.
Walter loner, Esq.
NOMINEES.
Peter Moore, Esq. Right Hon. Henry Erskine.
Mr. ATKINS WRIGHT moved, that the Order for
taking the Special Report of the Penryn Committee
into consideration on Monday, shOuld be discharged,
and that it should be fixed for the 21st of April
next. The reason was a domestic calamity which
had happened to one of the parties concerned. He
spoke in such a low tone of voice that we could not
distinguish the particular person.
Lord TEMPLE and Mr. WYNNE objected to such a
long delay, and after a few words from Mr. HURST,
Mr. SWAN, and Mr. Lee KECK., it was agreed that
the Report should be taken into consideration on the
,23d of March.
Mr: FULLER presented a Petition from Mr. Wal-
ter Dewry, who had been confined by the Maid-
stone LleCtion Committee, expressive of the contri-
tion of the witness; in consequence of which, it was
ordered that he should be brought up to the Bar on
Monday, and discharged.
Lord FOLKSTONE moved, That the Petition- of
Mr. Paull, complaining of a Breach of Privilege,
should be ten into consideration on Monday. He
did this with a view to make the business an Order
Of the Day, without which he could not have a War-
rant to compel the attendance of the Witnesses.
This Motion was agreed to; and William Drake,
William Drake, jun. Anne Drake, Thomas Weather-
head; John Richards, John Pullen, Daniel Richard-
son, Christopher Richardson, William Warren, with
other Witnesses, were ordered to attend.
Mr. Sitattinav had no objection, the Noble Lord
Might be assured, to any motion which should
have a tendency to throw light upon this subject.
He rose merely to state, that some friends of his
intended to present 0 Petition, on Monday, relat!ve
to the charges that had been brought against them ;.
and that be himself meant to present a Petition,
complaining of subornation of perjury on the part of
the Petitioner.
Mr. St:Ea:DAN then presented a Petition for leave
to bring in a Bill' to erect a Bridge froni, at, or near
Southampton-street, in the Strand, over the River
Thames; and to construa a High Road to the Obe-
lisk-,
.St. George's Fields, Surrey.—Referred to a
Coinniittee.
Mr. Sheriff MiLas presented two Petitions from
the Lord-Mayor, &c. &c. of London ; the one pray-
ing for aid for the Improvement of the -POll of Lon-
don ; the other, praying far. an Amendment of the
Ace or the .14th of the King, with respe& to the
Navigation of the River Thames.—Ordered to lie on
the table.
General PASCOYNE presented a don from the
Committee of the Merchants trading to Africa,
praying for the usual Grant of 18,0001. to main-
tain the Settlements there.—Ordered to lie tin the
table.
He also presented a Petition from the Leather
Dealers of Liverpool against the Oak Bark Bill.--
Referred to the Committee on the Oak Bark Bill.
Mr. HENRY THORNTON presented a PCIiIiOII from
the Curriers, &c. &á. of Colchester, praying for the
Continuance of the Sealing and Searching Regula-
tions.—Referred to tl2e same Committee.
Mr. FREEMANTLE suggested, that as the Private
Business wonld occupy a great deal of time, and as
the Slave Trade Committee was coming on, the
Hon. Baronet opposite might perhaps think it pro-
per to postpone his Finance Resolutions.
Sir JAMES PuLTENEY consented, and the Motion
was postponed till Tuesday.
Mr. HENRY Titottsvrow presented a Petition from
the Directors of the Sierra Leone Company, praying
for the aid of 14,0001. for the year 1807.—Ordered
to lie on the table. •
Mr. BASTARD moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for the better regulation of Parish Apprentices. The
chief object was, to compel their Masters to make
them attend Divine Ser,/ice.—Leave given.
Mr. HIBBLRT presented a Petition from certain
Planters of the West India Colonies, praying that
the House would take their case,into consideration ;
and gave notice that on the 9th of March he would
move that it be referred to a SeleEt Committee.
Lord HaWicx said, that he was not authorised to
signify His Majesty's assent to any claim of com-
pensation, which was not a question at present to be
considered.
Mr. HIBBERT Consequently did not persist in his
notice.
Mr, Batax.Es made the usual Motion for an Ac-
count of the number of Bank of England Notes in
circulation from the Ist of Feb. 1806 to the Ist of
Feb. 1807.—Oldered.
Lord TEMPLE presented the Estimates of the Ex--
traordinaries of tie Army; which were ordered to
lie on the table, and to be printed.
Lord TEMPLE brought up the Pilot Regulation
Bill, which was read a first time. His Lordship
stated, that many Ships had been lost in the British
Seas from the ignorance of Pilots, and that it was,
proper that some provision should be :made on the
subject. The Pilots appointed by certain Conipa-
nies, according to charter, would, be allowed to re-
main, as they were subjed to be confirmed and li-
censed by the Trinity House. He hoped lie would
be aliowed to proceed as soon as possible to the Corn-
mittee, in order to tilt up the blanks; after which a
considerable time would be allowed fur the consi-
deration of this important point.
The Bill was then ordered to be read a second
'tithe on Monday, with an understanding that 'it
'should he committed the same day.
Sir JOAN NEWPORT moved for leave to bring in a
Bill tor improving the City of Dublin. Leave given.
WESTMINSTER ELECTION. '
Mr. BIDDULPII presented a Petition from cer-
tain Electors of Westminster, in the Parish (t St.
Martin's Le Grand, complaining of a breach of pri-
vilege. The: Petition in substance stated, " That the
Petitioners.-had learnt with regret that the con,idcra-
iion of the Petition against Mr. Sheridan had been
tmstnotif...d from the eatis of this toiuth to al 111040

distant clay, by which they were for some time .
franchised and unrepresented in Parliament, Sir Sa-
muel Hood having accepted of a command incon-
sistent with his duty in Parliament, and Mr. Sheridan 1
having been returned by means of a colourable ma-
jority, instead of Mr. Paull, who was the real Mem-
ber.—That Mr. Sheridan personally, and his friends, 1
agents, &c. &c. had been tampering with the evi-
dence, and had employed bribes, threats, Ministerial
influence, &c. &c. to deter the witnesses from ap-
pearing, and giving an unbiassed testimony.---That
the Petitioners were ready to prove their allegations,
and as the Resolutions of the House had declared
that such condu6t was a high crime and misde-
.meanour, they demanded and entreated (or insisted)
that the House should proceed with the utmost se-
verity against the offenders." Mr.BlLDltt.rti hoped
that he would not be considered as personally respon-
sible for the allegations in the Petition. It had been
put into his hands by some E4ealors of Westminster,
and being an EleEtor of Westminster himself, he
could not refuse to present it. He moved, that the
Petition be referred to a Committee of Privileges.
•
Mr. SHERIDAN seconded the Motion.

Lord HO WICK observed, that though the Hon.
Member who. presented the Petition' was not re-
sponsible for the allegations, yet he was bound to
take care that every Petition he presented should be
couched in decent and ,respeaful ,language lie
would not comment on the allegations, for he was
disposed to agree in a sentiment which the Speaker
had expressed on an occasion different from this,
that the doors of the House should be thrown wide
open for Petitions : but if a Petition was couched in
a sort of language that. shewed a studied intention to
insult the House, it became them to e: press • their
disapprobation of such conduQ. The Petition set
out with a complaint against the proceedings of the
House, by which the Petitioners saii 'they were dis-
franchised for a time, when it was known that the
House was accustomed, and had anundoubted right to
chose their time with a view to the convenience of
the public business, and the ends of substantial jus-
tice to all the parties. That was the true ground
for putting off the consideration of the Eleaors' Pe-
tition ; and it was to be remembered, that it had
been first postponed by the Petitioners, with an un-
derstanding that it- should be further postponed, if
circumstances should require it. When it was post,.
poned on such grounds, the proceeding did not . .
de-
prive these persons of privilege, nor do injustice
to the Petitioner, for. -it, yet remained to be deter-:
mined who was the proper person to sit there for
Westminster. If 'the outset of the Petition was im-
proper, the subsequent part was not less objec-
tionable. Those men had certainly aright to peti-
tion, and it was the duty of the House to attend to
their. complaints ; but when they insisted and de-
manded that the House should proceed withseverity
against those whom they called offbnders,before in-
vestigation, this was not language consistent with
justice, or, the respe6l due to the House. He would
not, however, throw any obstacle in ,the way of in-
quiry : he hoped the matter would be inquired into,
and that censure would fall-where censure was due.
If it should be proved that the allen-ation of tamper-
ing with witnesses was well founded, then certainly
the offenders deserved the heaviest censure. But,
'on the other hand, if it was false and unfounded,
then universal censure would fall upon the authors
of so unfounded 'a slander. He suggested, how-
ever, to the Hon. Gentleman, that it was his duty,
in any Petition he might hereafter present, to take
care that it should be couched in language fit for the
House to hear.

Mr. WYNNE strongly felt that it would be dan-
gerous to admit a precedent of having received a
Petition couched in such terms. as these ;,.and, there-
fore, notwithstanding what had fallen from his Noble
Friend, with whose .experience and knowledge he
was well-acquainted, he thought that unlesS the ob-
jectionable passages could be cancelled, the Petition
ought not to be received. He was perfectly ready
to attend to the matter of the Petition ; but he
could not-consent to proceed. in a way that com-
promised the dignity and chara6ter of the House.
Lord TEMPLE concurred in the opinion, that
the door of the House 'ought to be thrown 'wide
open to Petitions ; but it had a right to demand
that they should he couched in decent and decorous
language. He did not, therefore, think that the
House was bound in duty to receive a Petition con-
veyed in such terms as these.
Mr. FULLER agreed with the Noble Lord-who
spoke last. The words were demand and insist, and
the House could not receive a Petition conveyed in
such terms as were contained in this--[Here he
threw the Petition on the ground]. The- House
would always feel it a duty to.attend to and redress
grievances ; but it was not bound to receive Petitions
couched in language that shewed a manifest inten-
tion to insult the House.
Mr. WHITBREA.b suggested to the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. liiddulph) the propriety or withdraw-
ing the Petition, as the general sense of the House
appeared to be against it, and presenting another,
couched in more proper and moderate - terms. It
was' not the custom to present Petitions against the
proceedings of the House in itifiirs of this nature,
and:the words insist and demand were certainly ob-
jettionable : but that was not the most objectionable
part of it, and he should be inclined to pass over
this if there had been nothing else to object to.
•BUt. the Petition insisted that the House should
proceed with severity with regard to one against
whom nothing had been proved. If the Petition
could not, in point of form, be withdrawn, then,
supposing it to be rejected, the Petitioners had fhll
time to present a fresh Petition on Monday.—
This, they would do if they were really in earnest,
and only wished for justice. If they did nut do
this, then it would be clear that they were not in
pursuit of justice, but only intended to insult the
House.

The SPEAKER said there was nothing in point of
form which would prevent the withdrawing of the
Petition.

Mr. BIDDULPH stated, that the Petition had
been put into his hands, and that he had promised
to present it, without.looking at it—immediately. He
had sunk: doUbts after reading it, but having sheWn
it to same friends (Allis, Members of the House, he
had been told by them that it would not be impro-
per to present it. As to that part which related to
the pro:xeding of the House, it was rather a narra-
tive titan an accusation.---The words insist and de-
mand had been caught at in rather an extraordi •
way. All that the Petitioners insisted upon

nary

and demanded was, that the House should of upon'
its own Orders. This was the way in which he
understood them. The evidenee,he knew nothing,
of ; but he was not prepared to view the Petition in
that offensive light. in which it appeared to some;
and therefore,did not feel satisfied that he ought to
withdraw it, or confess that, he was liable to the itn-
putation of carelessness thrown out against him by
the Noble Lord oppoSite.
Mr. MONfAGUE put it earnestly: to the Hon.
Gentleman 4who presented the Petition, whether it
would not be adviseable to withdraw. the same, as
by such a prudent proceeding, extremes upon either
side would be avoided, the dignity of the House
would not be comPromi&ed, and the Right of *Peti-
tion, would not be entrendied upon. He couldnot
agree 'with the Hon. Member, that the words "de-
mand and insist," were merely used as urging the
necessary consequences in a clear deaVetion • for
What man for instance ever similarly appii,J such
words as insist and demand that two and two made
four ? • Did Euclid, he asked, ever insist and demand
that the three angles of a triangle were equal to
No right ones He besought the Hon. Member
to relieve the'embarrassment of the. House by with=
drawing the Petition.
General VYSE, we understood, did ndt think that
the Petition being.' once presented could be well
withdrawn. Ile thought the' Wordi objected' to
were not of such moment, and believed that they
were to be imputed to ignorance or inadvertence.
Sir E. LY:I'I'LETON was for rejecting the Petition:
Noma') was'lnore a friend to the Subject's undoubt.,
ed right of petition than* he was; but he was also a
friend to the cause of that House's dighity -and
honour. In rejecting the Petition he thought be
ilot only consulted, the respect of that House, but
the dignity of the great'body that created it.' The
people suffered from any insult cast upon its repre-
sentative body, and no porCon of constituents should
bi allowed to violate the common forms of decency
and decorum due from all constituents to the Cont-
tifOriiliolis&oiNiiiiineht.

General VYSE eiplained.
• Mr. LAMBE did not think it quite fair that art
opinion hazarded 'by him in-private, upon a casual
glance of the Petition, should be adduced as ati
authority in that House ; he should not, however,
shrink in public from any opinion he had maintained
in private ihe did not think the words of the Petition
so objectionable; 'the words alarm and regret in its
commencement were by no mean 3 unparliamentary
terms to express the 'sensations of Petitioners pro-
duced by any
.antecedent act of- that House ; the
other words so much complained of, insist or de-
viand, seemed to be misunderstood, they were ad-
dressed to the House as in its judicial capacity.
Mr. SHERIDAN fully concurred with the Hon.
Gentleman on the other. side of the House (Mr.
Alontague) as to the necessity of dismissing front
their minds every consideration .that tended to irri-
tate or influence. He was aware that it was neces-
sary to hear with temper, in order to decide with
firmness. He had gone through his eleaion
test without heat, intemperance, or animosity I,lP°ll
his part, and he should not.now be hurried to aban-
don that moderation to which he had been recently
so murk indebted. He flattered himself that 'he
liad:thci good fortune to have the best wishes of the
Honottrable Member who presented the Petition ;
he
,had been benefited by his intercourse, and had
occasionally been honoured with the enjoyment. of
his hospitality ; he did therefore think that the Ho-
nourable Gentleman would have done more justice
to his well known candour, if he had, in his appli-
cation to different friends upon the subjeCt, had
some previous communication with him.(Mr. She»
titian) before he had presented a charge in which
he was so perSonallx. evolved. He was still more
at a loss to account for this othissions, when be re-
collected that a Noble. Lord (Folkstone), had done
so upon a similar occaftion, As to the Petition now
before the House; he believed he bad given the
strongest proof in his power- of his earnest anxiety
that the Prayer of the f'gtition should be promptly
acceded to, and that all praalicable dispatch Should:
be resorted te, in order to; facilitate inquiry the most
stria and extensive into the grounds of all allega-
tions complaining of a breach. of the
privileges of.
that House, or relating to any conduat of his touch-
ing thelate Election for Westminster,. A$ to the,
wording of the Petition, he had, two, r,eaaons for not
wishing to reje& it on that head,;, his. Parliamentary
condutt was evidence that he had been uniformly a
zealous advocate for the Subject's tight of Petition,
.and he would noW be the last man il7 that Huse to
reject a Petition for having indiscreetly made. use of.
hot and hasty words ; but he had anOther and a
paratnottnt teason for not reje&ing. the VetitiOn,4o
that was, that he believed in his soul, that, if tiA4
Petition•went to a ComMittee of Privileges,
he to the chagrin and utter disappointment of the.
Petitioners themselves. He argued against tiw
consistency of Coaxing an Honourable Membtx. to
with lraw his petition, in order not to Compromise
the dignity of. the House, as such solicitation weut,
effeaually to compromise it; and denied that tha,t
House could ever feel a difficulty on a question that
involved the assertion of its honour.

Mr. ROBINSON, though in a very small minority
upon a former night, against the Right ilonouraolo
Gentleman, felt it now equally. incumbent upon
him to resist the motion that Gentleman had se-
conded he thought the language of the Petition
extremely indecorous, and the reasons a;e•iiSeA to
prove the Petitioners disfranchised equally
absurd,
Mr. ADAM contended that the only proper way of
proceeding, in the present stage of the business, was
tor the Honourable Mover to withdraw his Mo-
tion, and afterwards his Petition, plecting himself
to bring forward the. substance of it in a form less
obje6tionable. .•,•
Mr. BIDDULPII, after a few observations in reply,
consented to withdraw his Motion. •

SLAVE 'TRADE ABOLITION BILL.
On the Alotion that the Speaker do leave the

Chair,

'Sir a POI:,E rose, and said, that his opinion of
the, impolicy of the present measure had gained con-
siderable strength from the arguments be iiad heard
urged by the ablest and must conversant men upon
the subject. He thought that the Bill would put
to risque more than one third of the export trade,--
The trade at present rnpintained moo ships and
3,000 seamen.. He hoped the House, would coo-
cider dispassionately the great subject before tit tu,
and not be affected in' his decision by popular Oa-
MOM.