The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-26 00:00:00

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS BILL.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to know whether it
was proposed to go into Committee on this Bill before the
recess or not ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Bill was of
the greatest importance, but he was afraid it would be im-
possible to go into Cwrimittee upon it before the recess.
COMMUTATION OF TITHES (ENGLAND)
BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day
for the further consideration of the Report of the Committee
on this Bill.

Mr. GISBORNE wished to revert to a question which
he had asked on a former evening, but to which. the Noble
Lord had not given a definite answer. He wished now to
ask whether the Noble Lord intended to introduce any
measure this session on the subject of mineral tithes.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL had not been able to come to
any satisfactory conclusion on the subject. He could not,
therefore, pledge himself to bring in any measure upon it
this session.

Sir ROBERT PEEL wished to know whether any al-
terations had been made in the Bill ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no alterations of his
own to propose of any importance, but he should be very
glad to go into Committee in order to hear the opinions
and suggestions which any Hon. Gentlemen might wish to
give on the subject.

Sir R. PEEL said that certain cases might arise, such
as modusses, or allegations of modusses. What did the
Noble Lord mean to propose on this point ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would rather not enter into
details until the subject came fairly before the House.
Sir R. PEEL said it was desirable when they went into
Committee that their attention should be confined to the
particular subject under their consideration. As to the
mode of applotment there was no provision made in this
Bill. What did the Noble Lord mean to do in that respect ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL made some observations in a
low tone of voice across the table.

Sir R. PEEL thought the proposition of the Noble
Lord was to go into Committee to supply the manifest de-
ficiencies of the Bill. It was quite clear it was necessary to
have an applotment. Suppase the case of the owner of
forty acres of land, who wished to dispose of it, how was
the purchaser or future occupier to know the rent charge
to which the land was liable, unless thefe was .an ap-
plotment

- The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said this was a ques-
tion which only concerned the landowner. The Bill was
perfect as far as it went.
Lord HO WICK thought it would be better to take the
discussion on the 40th clause.

Mr. PEMBERTON was as anxious as the Noble Lord
to carry into effect the principle of commutation, but this
Bill would not effect the object without most important
alterations. _ _

Lord J. RUSSELL had not the advantage of seeing the
Bill of the Right Hon. Baronet. He requested him to
bring it in, in order that it might be printed, but as he had
not done so he would not be justified in adopting it.
Mr. ESTCOURT objected to the period allowed for
the compulsory commutation to take effect.
Lord J. RUSSELL, on consideration, was of opinion
that the time was too short. He thought from the Ist of
Oct. twelve months should be allowed for the compulsory
composition to take effect.
Sir R. PEEL said there were these omissions in the
Bill, but as the Noble Lord was not prepared to fill them
up, he for one would not oppose going into Committee.
But the Bill after all would be found to be exceedingly im-
perfect.
Mr. CAYLEY had understood that they were to bare
a general discussion upon the principle of the Bill. It was
impossible for them to get it through the Committee before
Easter. It would be necessary to have such a discussion
upon the Bill, otherwise the public would know nothing
of it. As it stood at present, he confessed that he could not
understand it.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)
Mr. GOULBURN said if the House consented to
take the course pointed out by the Noble Lord, he would
feel himself at liberty to object to the principle of the Bill
at any time.
Lord HOWICK said the Hon. Member (Mr. Cayley)
had misunderstood him, if he supposed that he recom-

mended a general discussion upon the principle of the Bill.
That had already taken place.
Mr. BENETT said the principle had been discussed be-
fore. It was important they should know what the opinion
of the House was upon the most important clauses. This
could not be done without going into Committee. Let the
Right Hon. Baronet bring in his Bill also, and then the
House might select from it what they considered good, and
embody it with the Bill.
Mr. B. THOMPSON made some observations, but
they were quite inaudible in the Gallery.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, in ninety-nine
calms out of a hundred the difficulty would be the applica-
tion of the law of tithe, and to introduce any declaration
into the Bill of what that law was, would only increase the
difficulties.
Mr. G. KNIGHT said the only consequence of delay-
ing this measure was to increase the difficulties. The more
the subject of tithes was investigated, the more creditable
the conduct of the clergy would be found. The difficulties
arose, not from the clergy, but from the payers of tithe.
He thought the status quo might form a basis for a general
arrangement. The compulsory principle would be attended
with some difficulties. He thought that it would be most
desirable to enlarge the powers of the Commissioners, so
as to give them a greater latitude in dealing with extreme
cases. With this condition, he thought the compulsory
clauses might be retained. Any measure, however, ought
in his opinion to be accompanied by the principle of re-
demption, for with it the tithe-payers were likely to ac-
quiesce in better terms for the Church.
The question was then put that the Bill re-committed.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. LENNARD rose to move, pursuant to previous
notice, that it be an instruction to the committ.tee to insert
provisions enabling owners of lands, where there had been
a compulsory commutation as regards the original owners
of such lands, to re-open the_ variation at successive periods
of ten years, when it shall appear that the annual value
(to be ascertained by valuation) of th 6 tithes, if they had
been taken in kind, for the preceding five years, after de-
ducting 25 per cent., would have been one-third less than
the sums annually paid on account of such composition
within the same five years. The Hon. Member proceeded
to show by a variety of instances that the operation of
the Bill would be unjust, unless the principle of the pro-
posed instruction were embodied in its provisions. The
objection to the plan was, that it made the charge on the land
permanent, without reference to the nature of the soil or
the fluctuations or reductions in value which the pro-
duce might undergo. There were many cases to which
this objection would apply. For instance, no regard was
paid to the possibility of a repeal of the corn laws, a mea-
sure the result of which would be to throw a considerable
portion of the land out of cultivation. The only exception
made seemed to be in favour of hop-grounds. In the
manufacturing towns, too, the property was liable to de-
crease in value, yet no provision was made in this Bill
against the injustice which would result from the permanent
and. immutable tithe payment fixed under the Commutation
Act. Another case of probable injustice against which the
Bill did not provide, was that which would arise where
the land subjected to the commutation was on the sea-
shore. It would frequently happen that tithe would be paid
on account of soil so situated, portions of which would be
annually washed away by the sea. But this Bill made no
provision for such a case. Another inconvenience of the
Bill was, that it made no distinction between rectorial and
vicarial tithes ; whereas the fact was that rectorial tithes
were much more valuable. Another undue ad'vantage
given to the tithe owner under this Bill was that by the
payment of tithe half-yearly hereafter, instead of yearly, as
heretofore, the tithe receiver would be the gainer by the
amount of half a year's discount, as it were, upon the money
paid. It might be urged that the cases for which he sought
to provide were too much of the nature of extreme cases ;
but, as far as he could understand the principles which
actuated that House in it's decisions, it was prepared to
avoid unnecessarily inflicting injury on individuals while
carrying into effect any measure of great public advantage.
For his (Mr. Lennard's) part, he felt assured that if this
Bill were allowed to pass without there.being some provi-
sion for the extreme cases to which he had referred, and
others which might also be brought forward, that injustice
which it was always the object of the House to avoid would
be done to the tithe payer. The Hon. Gentleman con-
cluded by movinc, the instruction to the Committee which
he had previously read.
The SPEAKER (as we understood) suggested whether
the more convenient course would not be to move the in-
struction the Hon. Gentleman proposed after the House
had gone into Committee ?
Mr. LENNARD had conceived that to be the proper
time to bring forward his motion. If, however, it would
be more convenient to wait until the House had got into
Committee, all he could say was, that he was quite ready
to adopt that course.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the instruction
being disposed of then or after they had got into Corn-
mitce, but the latter would, probably, be the more con-
venient course.

Mr. PARROTT must object to their proceeding fur-
ther with this Bill without a full discussion of all its provi-
sions. No sufficient discussion on the subject had as yet
taken place, although the measure affected no less an
amount than from 25,000,000/. to 30,000,0001. a year ;
and without discussion how were they to have the numerous
facts and hardships which it involved properly and
clearly brought out, so as to enable the House and
the country to form a judgment as to whether such a plan
was expedient or not ? At present he would venture to
say that little or nothing was known of the question com-
prehended in this Bill, either in or out of that House ; and
therefore he thought the better way would be to discuss it
now, and defer the further proceedings upon it till after the
recess. He was willing to acknowledge that a compulsory
system of composition was absolutely necessary. A vo-
luntary composition could not, in his opinion, effect that
purification which they desired to see carried into the tithe
system ; but still he wished to hear the question put upon
its proper basis. It was simply a question between the
tithe-owners and the land-owners, and that was the only
light in which it should be discussed.—(Hear, hear.) By
the first clause it appeared that two Commissioners were
to be appointed by the Crown and one by the Archbishop
of Canterbury, with power of removal. He did not think the
plan laid down in this clause would be of any advantage. He
should now pass on to the 28th and 29th clauses, and it was
his opinion that those clauses ought to be omitted. The
29th clause provided for extreme cases, and it appeared
that wherever a composition had taken place the average
of that compensation was to be made the basis of the rent
charge ; but would this, he put it to the Noble Lord, be
either fair or just, without all due allowance being made
for the peculiar nature of the land, and the other local cir-
cumstances of each distinct case ? If, however, these mat-
ters were to be taken into consideration, he had no doubt
that the object intended would be answered, and that the
arrangement would be carried into execution Without irri-
tation or difficulty.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord should not
forget that it was easy for the landowner at any time so to
change his crops as to either increase or diminish the
amount of tithes. If he reduced his land to pasture he
might rear upon it cattle that were not titheable, and, there-
fore, unless the protection of the tithe receiver, as well as
of the tithepayer, were attended to, the Government would
have taken but an imperfect view of the whole subject.—
i(nHitteeaer.) It was his
on intention,propo s
e a when eonyogf o
ointo r Cceonmj.
on the compositions under certain circumstances, but he
observed that it contained a clause by which either of the
parties might, if he was not satisfied, have the valuation
made upon the gross produce. Now, if this were to be
allowed, all he could say was, there could be no doubt that
in many cases it would go the whole length of confiscation.
To such a clause he certainly had a strong objection.
Mr. BLAMIRE thought the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rus-
sell) was entitled to the thanks of the country for bringing
the subject forward, and although the measure was not
so perfect as could be desired, still he hoped it would
lead to a friendly and satisfactory settlement of the ques-
tion, so far as it was possible for them to settle it, in
the course of a short time.—( Hear, hear.) He knew of
many instances in which he was convinced it would
operate not only most hardly, but injuriously.—.(Hear,
hear.) Within the last twenty-five years as many as six
millions of acres of waste lands, not previously in tillage,
had been brought into cultivation. These lands, owing to
the accumulation of vegetable matter upon them, and not by
reason of the goodness of the soil, had been found produc-
tive ; but as their fertility was not enduring the sum ori-
ginally paid as a composition for the tithe on them would now
, be found much too large ; yet, under this Bill, no relief
could be obtained in such cases. It was well known the
composition for tithes was very unequal, and in some cases
thirty per cent. more was paid than ought to be paid, while
in others the payment was thirty per cent. less than it
ought to be. He could mention many instances of the
kind, and in which this Bill would raise a small composition
to a considerable rent charge. The effect, however, of
such an arrangement would be to cause a great proportion
of land to be thrown into pasture or grass lands, and in
cases where lands recently under corn, and of course subject
to tithe, had been planted, it would be most unfair to saddle
it with a rent charge. But it was wholly impossible for
them to do justice to all parties. They must be content to
be just according to a general scale, and not. with reference
to each individual case.—( Hear, hear.) If, however, the
Noble Lord should say that cases of hardship would rarely
occur, he should answer that they would be by no means
rare, and therefore, if it were intended that a large dis-
cretionary power—a power which he hoped would not be
placed in their hands—should be given to the Commis-
sioners, all he had to say was, that he trusted they would
be enabled to protect the tithe receiver as well as the tithe-
payer.---(Hear, hear, hear.) He feared, however, that the
plan, as it stood, would open the door to much difficulty

and speculation. He knew that some theorists wished a
certain portion of the rent to be taken as the basis of the
composition ; but, as far as the north of England was con-
cerned, such a course, he was persuaded, could only lead to
unutterable confusion.—(Hear, hear.) He knew of some
land that paid thirty per cent. on the rental as tithe, while
he knew of other land which, though equal in fertility, but
varied in cultivation, paid only one-and-a-half per cent.
There was no reason why the circumstances of farms
should not in the course of a few years be transposed ; or
why the cultivation of them should not be altogether
changed.--:(Hear.) There were another set of Gentle-
men who thought that the only way of satisfactorily settling
the question was by ascertaining the quality of the soil
throughout the country ; but this plan appeared to him to
extremely objectionable. He was willing to admit that a
system of voluntary or individual commutation would be
insufficient to remove the evils complained of, especially in
the north, because of the great delay which it would occa-
sion, and in addition to this there would be found in every
parish some wrong-minded individualosvho would be always
sure to act contrary to his neighbour. It was beyond the
reach of human ingenuity to settle the question by one ge-
neral enactment, and, therefore, all the Government could
do would be to place the parties in the best possible posi-
tion to make satisfactory arrangements among themselves.
—(Hear, hear.) In this way he was anxious to see the
principle of the Noble Lord's Bill acted upon. The Noble
Lord should first ascertain the value of tithes in each pa-
rish, benefice, or tithing district, and, having done so, he
should leave each place to settle and applot the amount of
the rent charge to be paid by way of composition, without
anyinterference on the part of the Commissioners.—(Hear,
hear.) In his part of the country he had no doubt that
such a proposition would be acceded to as satisfactory, for
he could tell them that in the north the people generally
stood in great dread of the Noble Lord's Bill, not only re-
garding the machinery of it as complex, but calculated
to entail on them an endless and unnecessary expense,
without the prespect of producing a satisfactory result.
--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord talked of an appeal ;
but surely he must be aware that in a great number of cases
such a right would not be worth exercising. Those with
whom he (Mr. Blamire) had spoken on the subject—and
they were persons whose professional, as well as local, know-
ledge enabled them to give an opinion that was deserving
of attention—stated, that unless the sum amounted to 30/.
or 401. an appeal would be madness. If this were the case
did it not follow that when the amount was only 71., or any
other trifling sum, the right of appeal would be in effect
barred ? The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to say, that in
parts of the country with which he was acquainted they had
always found it the best way, in case of disputed assessment,
for the parish to meet, and then the applotment was allotted
without any difficulty. In any parish where this mode was
resorted to he had not ,known any difficulty to occur. He
believed that under the Voluntary Tithe Composition Act
this had been the course pursued in Ireland, and he was not
aware that any difficulty had been found in regulating the
applotment under this plan. He hoped that a provision
would be introduced into the Bill providing that on the pe-
tition of a sufficient number of the inhabitants they should
be empowered to adopt the voluntary system of assessment,
and to make the applotment themselves. He regretted
that in the Bill before the House no provision whatever was
made for the numerous tithe suits now pending, and which
had not been brought to issue, in the hope that some pro-
vision would be made for them in the settlement of this
great question. He was anxious that some provision should
be introduced to enable parties to give portions of common
land to the tithe-owners in lieu of tithes. He would also
wish the insertion of a clause in the Bill, declaring that the
majority should in all cases of voluntary composition bind
the minority.

Lord HOWICK could not agree in the opinion which
the Hon. Member for Cumberland had expressed, that in
the present state of the country it was desirable that they
should hold out an inducement and temptation to volun-
tary commutation. He certainly admitted that in the part
of the country with which he was connected, as well as
that which the Hon. Member for Cumberland came from,
there would be found a general disposition to enter into the
voluntary commutation on fair principles. But from what
he had heard and seen of the feeling entertained on this
subject, he feared that to pass a measure of voluntary com-
mutation would be to effect the greatest injustice to many
parties in the end, and in the meantime to produce a great
deal of inconvenience to the public at large. If the pro-
position for voluntary commutation had been made at an
earlier period, he did not doubt but that it would have
been attended with the best success. It appeared to him
that, whenever the doctrine of compulsory commutation
was broached, there was a great difficulty placed' in the
way of voluntary commutation, and any voluntary commu-
tation that might take place was not likely to be at-
tended with satisfactory results. This must be antici-
pated where there were conflicting interests. On one
side it was the interest of one party to evade payment,
and of the other to assert the payment ; and supposing
that six or seven years were laid down as the period
at which compulsory commutation should take place,
both parties in the meantime commenced preparations for
an event which they all foresaw. On each side there was
an endeavour to do whatever would be likely to render the
compulsory composition which must occur most conducive
to their own interests. Now to hold out the remote ex-
pectation of the compulsory assessment would, he thought,
be very injudicious. In the meantime, the land would, in
many instances, be converted into plantation, or other simi-
lar disposal made of it. Now he did not fear that this
would take place extensively in the north, but it might per-
haps be the case in the south. Now the mere circumstance
of throwing out of employment in this way a great number
of persons engaged in the cultivation of arable land, would
in itself be a great evil. Then there would be the injury
felt by various small traders in country towns, who were
in the habit of supplying this labouring population. When
these consequences were fully looked into, he was sure that
they would not be content with a plan of mere voluntary
commutation. The Noble Lord proceeded to contend that
great inconvenience would be. felt from applying the volun-
tary principle, holding out at the same time the remote ap-
plication of the compulsory principle. But if they felt the
necessity of applying the compulsory principle, he would
ask, could that principle be carried into effect better
than by the present Bill ? The Honourable Member for
Cumberland had stated, and most truly, that to make
the future charges on land not proportioned to the
amount of tithes, but to the amount of rent, would
be in itself a very great injustice. If, indeed, they
were now for the first time about to make an endow-
ment to the Church, he would not say but that it might be
better to make such endowment consist of some proportion
of the rent of the land than of the gross produce ; but to
do so now would be to sweep away an extensive institution,
and to raise up another in its stead. The Hon. Hember
for Totness had stated that in his opinion they ought in the
assessment look at nothing but the agreement made between
tithe-payer and tithe-owner. Now he (Lord Howick) did
not think that a fair principle to be applied. He could
easily conceive a great many cases where a great difference
existed between those parties. However, on this point the
principle laid down in the course of the discussion by an
Hon. Member who spoke at that side of the House ap-
peared to him (Lord Howick) most satisfactory. That
principle was to ascertain, as far as could be, the existing
agreements, and when those agreeements presented any dif-
ficulty, that a power should be given to ascertain the
amount that ought to be paid. He believed he was just in
presuming that some compulsory measure would be found
necessary, and, such being the case, he did not think that
that principle could be better carried into effect than by the
present Bill. He hoped, therefore, that there would be
no objection to allow the measure, as the principle
seemed admitted, to go into committee, and they would
then have an opportunity of considering the objections that
had been made to the details of the measure.--( Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said—l am not opposed in principle to com-
pulsory compensation, and should be so far ready to concur
in the principle of the measure before the House, and to
apply myself to the objections urged against the details
when the Bill goes into Committee. But if, in point of
fact, as the Noble Lord seems to suppose, we concur in the
principle of compulsory commutation, the policy of adopt-
ing that principle depends so much on the machinery which
we employ to work it out, that it is difficult to consider the
principle without, at the same time, taking into our consi-
deration those details and that machinery on which the
success of the principle so mainly depends.—(Heir,
hear.) I agree in the first observation of the Noble Lord,
that, in attempting to make any arrangement on the volun-
tary principle, the success of such an attempt is greatly to
be doubted after you have once declared that the compul-
sory principle is to be applied. I am sure that the Noble
Lord will admit that this is the stage in which we are in
the most advantageous position to discuss any objections
that may be urged against the principle of the Bill. The
Noble Lord has stated the great advantage that will result
from the adoption of the compulsory principle. I admit
that his opinion is well founded, provided that its applica-
tion be found satisfactory. Now, unless the principle is
consistent with equity, it cannot be satisfactory. The
Noble Lord has stated that he objects to the volun-
tary principle. He says that persons will be found
willing to adopt the voluntary principle so far as it
suits their interests, but that they will be anxious
to adopt the compulsory principle in any case where they
consider that principle would be more conducive to their
own advantage. But if the Noble Lord thinks that the
compulsory principle would be better and more satisfactory,
how does it happen that he extends the period to intervene
before its adoption to two years ? Now, would not six
months be quite sufficient time to limit the application of
the compulsory principle to ? But the Noble Lord, in op-
position to his own objections, extends the period a year and
a half longer than necessary, and though he objects to vo-
luntary commutation, nevertheless he extends the period

1......
.............o•••••... .

for the application of that principle to two years. Now, 1
do not see the advantage of that. You tell parties that
they are at liberty to enter into voluntary commutation ;
but that if they do not do so at the end of two years the
commutation is to be compulsory. This was not the course
which I proposed to pursue. I was anxious in the measure
I proposed in the first instance to apply the voluntary prin-
ciple, and I would afterwards, if it became necessary, as 1t
probably would in some cases, apply the compulsory princi-
ple in any arrangement that might take place. I would
have made my experience of the voluntary agreements the
basis of such arrangement. There perhaps might not be so
much difficulty in the way of the settlement of this question
if we had only two classes to deal with. If we had merely
to determine between the tithe-owner and the tithe-payer,
the difficulty would be considerably diminished. But
then, in any settlement of these interests we are bound
to consider that there is a third party whose interests are
not to be lost sight of—l mean the Church. It has been
said of this measure that its object was to render rough
justice ; but I fear that rough justice would not answer the
purpose, or give general satisfaction to the country. will
not now enter into the details of the measure. The volun-
tary system has, as I am informed, already operated well'
It has not told to the full extent which was expected, but
sufficient time has not been allowed to judge fairly of its
operation.—(Hear, hear.) The lands, too, in this country
have had their crops increased by artificial means—bY the
lFge application of capital and industry, and by a forced
tillage. This has been rendered necessary by the competi-
tion which increased intercourse has produced with the more
fruitful parts of Ireland and Scotland.—(Hear, hear.)
Then there is another reason why we should legislate with
extreme caution in this question. I mean the general and
increasing application of railroads. Whether, as specula-
tions, these will or will not prove successful to those who
enter into them, one thing is certain, namely, that if made,
they will create a great revolution in the value of property.
And it will be difficult now to estimate the value of lands
with reference to the changes which those railways are
calculated to produce.—(Hear, hear.) See what the on'
sequences of extended steam navigation in Scotland have
been. See what a vast difference it has produced in the
relative value of land in that country.--{clear, hear.)
The result of these railways 'will be almost to annihilate
space. They will bring into competition with those lands
from which towns are now supplied the lands of distant
districts, and that competition will be felt formidably by those
lands of inferior quality in the vicinity of towns which were
able to compete with the others only through the advantage
of that vicinity.—( Hear, hear.) Is there not, then, par-
ticularly at this period, great danger in enforcing this Cow
pulsory commutation? We give encouragement to the et',
tension of the power of steam, which, it is admitted, can
in a great many instances, exercise a vast influence in alter-
ing the relative value of lands ; and yet, at the same time,
we propose to enforce a compulsory commutation on an
average of the last seven years, notwithstanding the great
change likely, and at no distant period, to take place
(Hear, hear.) These surely, are matters upon which the
House is called upon to bestow its most serious considers'
tion.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I feel that the Church is deeply
interested in this subject. It is her interest that a measure
professing to be for her service should be founded 00 ..P!si
tice.—(Cheers.) Now, with regard to vicarial and rectorla
tithes, this measure would operate unjustly for many reasons.
For instance, the former are far more difficult of collectio.
than the latter. In civil matters the voluntary systetn.!
always a desideratum, and it is only in the event of 11.1
failure that men resort to the law for redress. Of emirs°
when I speak of voluntary commutation I do not mell
individual will. In order to effect the commutation wit
I contemplate there must necessarily be so much corer'.
sion as that, where a certain number of parishioners are
agreed upon it, it will not be left in the power of any eic'ie
individual to obstruct the arrangement. lam most real,
to afford every assistance in my power to perfect the details
of the Noble Lord's measure ; but I am so apprehensive°
f
the consequences of the compulsory principle at the pre..
sent time that I think it will not be at all calculated to re-
move the evils against which it is intended to provide.
Mr. H. C URTEIS was understood to say, that althonolti
in some districts the voluntary system might be actin
upon, those in his part of the country were not likely
adopt it.
e
-Lord J. RUSSELL had no desire whatever to hurry the
Bill through the House. With regard to the question ofvoluntary or compulsory, he did not think the Right lietil
•
Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) had answered the observation of
his Noble Friend (Lord Howick.) The Right Hon. Gen;
tleman contended that the compulsory clause would have
tendency to prevent voluntary commutation. To him (14°d r
J. Russell) it seemed quite otherwise. If five yeari weree
allowed for the voluntary commutation some vague MI,
might exist of still greater advantages, and thus the colon it.
tation might be withheld ; but if a year or a year and a ha'
only were allowed, parties seeing the compulsory reetisur:
fixing certain terms was near at hand, would therefore,,
more desirous of coming to a voluntary arrangement. therefore
greater proportion of those interested would say that it was
scatcely worth their while to remain in doubt for some trifling
per tentage. On these grounds he was of opinion that a
voluntary commutation would be hastened by the near
prospect of a compulsory one —(Hear, hear, hear.) Many
objections had been made to this measure,
but it was easier
to make objections than obviate difficulties. It was pro-
posed to make the commutation bear a proportion to the
rent, and some set it down at a sixth. Now, one of the wit-
nesses examined before the Agricultural Committee being
asked the proportion which his tithe bore to his rent, stated
that his tithe was ss. 6d. and his rent 14s. Would they
reduce that ss. 6d. to 2s. 4d. ?--(Hear, hear.) It had beene
argued by an Hon. Friend of his (Lord J. Russell's)initbo:
House, that commutation had been made by private Bil s
the principle of a proportion of the rent. This was no gr°e,ie,
to go upon, for there was a difference between two Par.'„o
who knew the property they were dealing with entering Ingean agreement—theres reo
was a difference between that Ibe.,
sanctioning such an agreement and its passing an Act er,
deling commutation compulsory on the principle of a I:VPt of
tion of the rent. It was better in discussing the subjee.oo,
proportion to take as a standard the matter in clue° )
namely, the tithe of the produce of the land.—(
The only proper measure was to give out of an acerafion.
these from fifty to sixty or seventy per cent. The hieh
Member for Cumberland had given some instances in v! did
this plan would operate hardly. He (Lord J. Russel!) the
not deny but there might be such instances, for it was to
very nature of commutation to generate them, but then l"
into
Hear, heaer•of
they with these the advantages resulting should be taken
itity
consideration. The exchange would take away a Peed in.-
which at present pressed upon labour and industry, ant,,
stead of this penalty would accord them encouragemenerota •
(Hear, hear, hear.) The average was to be formed to.
the last seven years. Though during that period greet,Press
gress had been made in agriculture, it was a Pre 7.0 be
which still continued to increase, and was not likely ions
arrested. It was therefore most probable that large :
of land would be brought into cultivation by the °TWA the
tion of capital, labour, and skill ; and to such later.)
measure would prove highly advantageous.—(He','oP per ;
In a land the population of which increased by 280,u o was
annum, and in the quantity and quality of which tber_dd
no falling off, but, on the contrary, an increase, there cthose
not be a falling off of agricultural produce. 'Under'. tithe,
circumstances the measure, which fixed the rate mtoito
must be of advantage to those who vested their cal' orne
agricultural pursuits. Several individual cases had c ve
to his knowledge of the great benefit which would ro'
accrued to the former, if an Act like that which he n°vvjoubt
posed had been in operation. There could be "0 would
that by the commutation of tithes great advantagesotirell •
be gained by the country generally, though be e eases
despaired of introducing any Act under which somehow-)
of individual hardship would not occur.—(Hear' obsti"
He was disposed to go into Committee, not with an
coy
nate predetermination, but with a view to listen to rust
proposition which could be made to diminish anOYO
P gild
hardship. He had no doubt that some suggestio
which
be thrown out in the course of the Committee VI;
he should find reason to approve of.—(Bear.) at all •
principles of the Bill he believedto be fair ; and
events, it was conceived with honest intentions' had
with a view to do justice to all parties. 11
not heard, he must say, that the Clergy of the con?trYenginc;
nerally complained of the Bill, although it would to the
the
cases take away 40 per cent, of their property, sch' _.., on
Hon. Member for Southwark had said was a robbere.Yoo.
the part of the landlord. He had not heard any
01.
did
plaints of this Bill, so far as it affected the ClergY
end
he believe that it would be objectionable to the titn'eFed to
and if by this measure he succeeded in putting artoght
litigation between the tithepayer and titheowner,
to entryto
that the Bill would confer a great boon on the c
He had heard complaints and statements, certainlY,tm the
extent to which he could hardly give credit, as_ role,
amount of deduction which it was said ought to be atter
and he was of opinion, after giving them the umab,ociples
tive consideration, that a measure founded on the Pdr`,coers,
of this Bill would be a very great benefit to the fan not wish
and not inequitable to the tithe receiver. Be did
to hurry the measure ; all due deliberation would beri
to it.—(Hear, bear.) ore
Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought there would bear If
cases of hardship than the Noble Lord had anticiPettere seas
the Noble Lord meant when he said that agricul;ods in
likely to advance that the more highly cultivat d
e doubtios
England, and those lands in Ireland which would,eient t? •
speedily be brought into cultivation would be sumeent tt
;it' the;
meet the demands of our population to whatever
might increase, he fully agreed with him. But w
was to become of the inferior soils under such eomPtv won
le
They would be thrown out of cultivation, and .13° errov
it be possible for them to pay the amount of tithetaPken
on
'neatly fixed upon them by this Bill, on an average At pre:*
the basis of their present value ?—(Hear, ha
the Of t
sent he would only say, that whatever the re

anrivptever the result of the Bill of his Right Hon.
Friend, nothing could be more gratifying to the House and
toa the country, than that this important question should
!)vebeen brought forward and discussed in the manner it
e
dbeen, a manner wholly free from political or party bias.
efl‘ a lr: C AYLEY approached this subject, or any measure
similar nature—unless it was' voluntary in its principle
with the deepest distrust and apprehension of the result.
There could be no dissentient voice as to the principle of
commutation of tithe ; its object was to relieve the tithe
receiver, especially if he was a Clergyman, of an obnoxious
and invidious, and most unpopular mode, of collecting an
!neelesiasfical revenue. It released capital to be hereafter
vested in the soil from being taxed in the ratio of one-
tnth of its gross returns. The difficulty in the question
Just, bow to arrive at correct data upon which to ground a
which arrangement. He was averse to any plan of reduction
tithe amountedhe
virtually to a release from the payment of
e was equally averse to enhancing a customary pay-
Ment; or perpetuating a charge on a temporary system of
er_ultivation to such an extent as involved confiscation.
en 14i earl e were
. various opinions as to the origin and real legal
had ,:n tithe. Latterly, decisions of Judges, he believed,
spilaby.eroien more in favour of the titheowner than the tithe-
Whatever might be considered the law upon the
4inJee t, common sense and common justice had—in
"e-tenth
tY-nine cases out of a hundred—protested against
emspeciall of the produce being exacted from the latter,
Y when, perhaps, three-fourths of the produce
gilt have been the offspring of the capital of the
f(leerettle,ier, and only one-fourth the produce of the natural
b'Y of the soil. However, a middle course had for the
een pageeen pursued ; agreements, real or implied, had
between the tithe payer and the tithe receiver
B°ll4:_the bases, although the bases were various, of a compo-
hi`sim at a certain rate. The cultivator, before he invested
ol,ttrPital, stipulated that only a limited increase should be
e in his tithe, otherwise he refused to improve the land.
ti°th atever increase there was would be an advantage to the
e, owner • and so, rather than lose this advantage, he
fai'tatid consent to abridge his claim of tithe ; and on the
tithu of this the capital was invested.—(Hear, bear.) The
on a farm which, at its full value, was only worth 301.
might then be raised to 401. by the composition ;
ciugh the full value from double produce would be 601.
°tad it be fair to raise this? He contended it would be
the
Iv a grossest injustice. The only fair basis of commutation
tos customary payment, and customary tillage, or cus-
Itsa arY arrangement.—(Hear, hear.) There might be in-
e
a, es where customary payments were very high : that
in
eats own
from the tithe payers not being aware of the power
'oe tinwehands to thwart the tithe owner. There were
rs on both sides which, in districts where the question
the ee, .
ti agitated were well known to both parties. The
Man could take in kind, the cultivator could change
eLcr°l3s, and grow such as were of less titheable value. A
tit}:Jvman in the county of Durham demanded increase of
tin; 'rem a large coal owner ; he met his demand by shut-
in i.„111) the coal mine in that clergyman's parish, and open-
did one in another ;so that the tithes were all gone. He
ti not advocate such a principle, but gave it as an illustra-
well or the power which was possessed on the one side as
ell„ as on the other. And the low rate of a years pur-
th je for tithes in eighteen, showed the precariousness of
ProPerty. The fault, the crying fault, of his Noble
thn°,°d's Bill was, that it went to disturb the proportions of
tlieli„rnPositions. He therefore feared he could not give
of "I—for the whole Bill was contained in the provisions
eon, the clauses 28 and 29—unless the limit or minimum of
Nogliosition was taken away, his support.—(Hear.) The
fap 'e Lord might say that the tithe-owner could claim in
40' and that it was unjust of him to allow of more than
ti per cent. reduction. His answer was, that the reduc-
of thq 40 per cent. was a concession to the habit
man country and to customary payment—(Hear, hear)
in that he had forsaken his general principle
tlkciVeing the tithe at all, except for rent charges. And
prinerei was that the Noble Lord had forsaken the general
Tor ee, for it was the worst of all legislation to stand out
inter rights and general principles in defiance of vested
tlealests and common usage. Lord Althorp's second Bill
arolitt° ascertain the proportion between rent and tithe ;
the ieueeforward tithe was to fluctuate with rent, but retain
tent°cl.Proportion. That was much simpler than the pre-
ao and much more just, inasmuch as it laid down
tit to adjustment on customary payment. At the same.
11,14441'i4s faulty to a certain extent in principle, as font-
tiill7e tax on capital. He had given his Noble Friend's
on o,l' best attention, but lie could not sanction the limit
held minimum of composition. A certain bonus was
teda "ut that all compositions over 75 per cent. should be
eied to that extent. This was, in his opinion, a mere no-
tlatadvantage in the Bill, for few he believed were so high
14e --(ilear, hear.He could not understand, either, why
Haase 28 should) not be on the same principle as 29 ;
NC. ate(' to composition, and was to be reduced to 75 per
redo ;?8 related to collecting in kind, and was to have no
tliatet'un but the ordinary charges. They must not forget
iUst Trie4°,..ch land at present prices could not be tilled, and
hue --"er go to grass or to waste, in which cases the
e alt he tithe would be reduced. Then the corn laws might
,°! utliaet,,,e,a• He repeated,. that the only equitable mode
hap th"trig this question was, by taking at least not more
4413 'e customary payments and customary tillage as the
done 8° far as proportion was concerned. The actual
iltriet3:lllaYment would, of course, vary with the price of
"eve, tural produce. Here again he objected to the last
test fears being taken as a test of prices, as well as a
that th angement. It was only about two years ago
,7,1151 bei arr bad reached the bottom of a level which they
.ttio'eserve, in consequance of the change in the value
-111t111,-'• The next five years, added to the last two,
teas b fair basis ; but certainly not the last seven. It
case atilt fair to look in some respects favourably on the
ration he tithe-payer. The increased expenses of culti-
4No since the war fell upon him ; the tithe-owner, in the
otivet; was free from these
—(Hear.) There was a case
4 thbef°re the Agricultural Committee, when prices
4141 same as in 1790, the supplies for rent and profit
as in 11gen farm in 1834 was only 3801. per annum, where-
j4, each "it was 851/. Now, supposing the tithe was
t7lf.Period 1501.—and it would be about the mark—
the
ibeiProfiturriler time it would be less than one-fifth o
'P s she and rent ; and in 1834 it would be one-half.
blight wed how heavily tithe now pressed ; indeed! it
te Priaeb2_,orb all the rent in extreme cases. Even his No-
Aered and himself, in the committee of 1833, he remem-
tmoeuee, t'breY well, had contended that, according to the evi-
tlll3er usual payment for tithe had varied from 15 to
at it cent.W reduction of tithe in kind, and, be contended
tttt had a Mild be confiscation to raise it from 50 per cent.
t ate waPPeared to him (Mr. Cayley) that the most legiti-
4wilichYtuf arriving at a sound conclusion as to the data
A pre proceed a commutation was to ascertain
ilketa
ean) u proportion was allotted in private enclosure and other
Alec of tithe for a length of time back.—(Hear,
ontkl Privaltnee 1757 up to 1830, be found that two thou-
to_extea,i_e Acts of this nature bad passed. Here was
the .'ed basis for legislation. He had, therefore, moved
tollovvin
1,41. turo g return, which had been ordered, viz. :
nf leh pro j°nl the inclosure and other private Acts, in
re,lttle provlBbms are included for the commutation of tithes,
Portion in land, yearly money payment, or corn
lairt allotte
kres, the Q in lieu of tithe, distinguishing the old inclo-
tio ti°°Bfor°l3t.ea field land, and the commons, and the pro-
ei„4, of laad2t,,he allotted in the case of each of such descrip-
pa"Mary, These returns would show what was the
11 Yet' vs
of the tithe both in the estimation of the
ad i 4 it the rec .
ere creased elver. Latterly he believed the proportion
l'hase, . whereas, in justice, it ought to have de-
, e stdering the increased expenses of cultivation.
verie fairest
wa
with Y would be to take an average of the whole
11,1,,x his rotorsPect to proportion. This would be found to
onftPeo fiehi:tnation was correct, about one-fifth of the land
tilleivator h done-seventh in the old inclosures, where the
Droge to pa the Power in his possession of changing from
of ttortioe'rouiss, and one-ninth of the commons. But a
nthee rent, b the land was not so valuable as a proportion
on til; such execause the latter was clear of all repairs and
baai e table. Penses. He hoped this return would soon be
one to ga u Some such knowledge would be the best
tbutteruse a 11"' Each party had had the power to resist
kn.. 4 just SSerit, and, therefore, it might be fairly argued
reed cum Promise had been come to between the
frotnit2 he •
kntehe Noble Lord persisted in his Bill, and car.-
go .as Gd. t w cases where the tithe would be raised by it
lg 'into n t 0 .7s. or 8s• per acre ; and this where the conao:
1(1 icen I *
atlteNZAlear, be inade, even under the high prices 1
1 f the Bill was not altered, he saw no
ive
but for the anded interest to take shelter under
Nission 13.11
?emits Tat, lof the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
d worth. If there had been the Permission Bill
11 ad
of 2'ooo parishes commuting we should have
Ilitihre°bablY 10,0 e prey r at. 0 out of the whole 16,000, or some such
the ?tied hnri_lshes already commuted. They had been I
etvN, :east h;' ;e, expense of a separate Act of Parliament.
petted from a measure of this kind, what-
-I)r., vantage
411,7tittetiet the of fight accrue to new capitalists, would be
atsebladeds°ught u
110
ossessors from an enhanced rate of pay-
al advantage over the titheowner.
Ikt -I;ei,_:4--wiithrlst
.La body were better without any Bill
Zkalt Tit he
ee'nuiLlNoble Lord's, as it at present stood.
sed he saw no equitable and safe way
p,,t:ol),repeardaitTfijoenuls than the voluntary principle, at least
krn to an., for the
measures, although his mind
at 8E any' that might offer itself.—(Hear.)
kat, tt,e,said r.rs'esi:eT,.said his Hon. Friend was mistaken in
t rayrae cunt,
o nt, thou% the average of the last seven years,
out e eurre„, g fixed, would bear a relative propor-
-'rtniaNstoroar "I' Produce and value. As to what he said
an tYleP.?Yrnents, nothing could afford a more un-
.,;ed podl a coin one instance in Wiltshire, where a
hlie tundsperP:sition for forty-five years of three hun-
tNreP were annum, and on the death of the incumbent
and eighty
: in valued, d on valued
per
And he knew