The Sun.
London, England, 1836-11-19 00:00:00

IRILA.ND.

MPORTANT SPEECHES OF MR. O'CONNELL
AND MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORD.
( Abridged from the Morning Advertiser.)
DUBLIN, Thursday Evening, Nov 17,
Half-past Six o'clock.
The General Association met to-day at half-past two
o'clock, and the proceedings, an ample report of which I
send you, will be read with intense interest. Nearly twenty
Members of Parliament were present, and the room was
crowded to excess. Pierce George Barron, Esq., took
the Chair.
Mr. FRENCH announced that poor Reilly, the unfortu-
nate wretch who was imprisoned on a writ of rebellion by
the Dean of Ardagh, for the non-payment of ten shillings,
the amount of four years' tithes, had died since the last
meeting of the Association, from the effects of that im-
prisonment. •
Mr. FRENCH then proposed the admission of Lord Mil-
town as a Member of the Association, and handed in his
Lordship's subscription of 101.
Lord MILLTowsr then entered the room, and was re-
ceived with loud cheers. His Lordship alluded briefly to
the distress likely to arise from the suspension of exchanges
by the Agricultural Bank, and urged that it was the great
duty of all, whose power it was to do so, to alleviate it as
much as possible. For his own part, if from the statement
promised by the Directors to be made to-morrow, it ap-
peared that the Company had assets to meet the notes in
circulation, he would direct his agents to receive from his
tenants agricultural notes in payment of their rents. This
announcement was received with loud cheers, and several
gentlemen stated their intention of following this example.
Mr. O'CosINELL here entered the room, and was received
with loud cheers. They bad all seen the list of Sheriffs
furnished by the Judges—he would just allude to that
made out for the County Clare. One gentleman upon the
Judges' list for that county was at present on the Conti-
nent, and was not expected to return for two years, and
the other two had already served in the office of Sheriff ;
and it was not usual to place the names of those who had
served vain on the list, whilst there were others who were
eligible. These two gentlemen were certainly men of
respectability—one of them was Secretary to Lord Fitz-
gerald when he was in Sweden, and the other was also a
respectable gentleman. But what was the fact ? The
Sheriff had furnished Baron Foster with a list of six
Roman Catholics and six Protestants, none of whom were
selected by the Judge, who sent in a list of his own. They
all, however, knew who Baron Foster was. Again, in
the county of Kerry, a list was made by that Judge, and
the names were those of three very respectable gentle-
men, but two of them bad been on that of last year, and
had been pressed to accept of that office—one of them was
then and now absent, from illness, upon the Continent ; and
the other resided in England, where the greater portion of
his property was, and as he was able to excuse himself then,
he would also be able to do so. Then, in regard to the
county of Waterford, two of those who were upon the list.
there were arrant Tories.—( Hear.) In short, the melan-
choly exhibition of the system was, that although the
Judges were free from any political bias, yet, if they were
the most inveterate partizans or the members of an Orange
Lodge, they could not have congregated a larger number of
names connected with party than appeared in their lists.
Mr. Sharman Crawford was then loudly called for, and
the Secretary (Mr. French) accordingly read tile following
(Mr. Crawford's) resolutions
Ist. That in our opinion it is not compatible with justice
to Ireland, and with the theory or practice of the British
laws, as applied to either England or Scotland, that the
great body of the people should be taxed to pay for the
' church of-the minor portion. And that it is equally in-
compatible with the principles of religious liberty that any
"man should be compelled to pay for the ordinances of a
Church with which he is not joined in communion.
21 That as under the present application of the tithe
composition in Ireland, a tribute is levied from the whole
nation for the uses of the Church of only one-tenth portion
of the community, the people of Ireland are therefore jus-
tified in demanding the total extinction of an assessment so
applied.
tad. That whilst we demand relief from this ecclesiastical
impost, we at the same time require, that as the tithe as-
- sessment was in its original institution a levy from the pro-
fits orkland for the public benefit, an assessment equal in
amount shall be imposcd in just proportion on those pos-
sessing profitable interests in land, to be applied to the in-
struction, relief, or employment of the people, or to such
other general purposes as Parliament shall hereafter appoint.
4th. That in our opinion any settlement of the tithe
question which shall not be founded on the foregoing prin-
ciples, cannot be satisfactory to the people of Ireland ; and
we call upon our countrymen not to desist from all legal
and constitutional means of redress, till they have ob-
tained full and complete relief from this oppressive and
degrading impost.
Mr. CRAwFonn, when the reading had been concluded,
said, I have 'to bespeak the indulgence of the association
while I rise to call their attention to the resolutions, of
which I have given notice for this day. I wish to show
that the people of Ireland have no wish that the State
should be deprived' of any principle of taxation which it
has a right to for the common good of the people.—(Hear,
hear.) But I also wish to show that Ireland desires to
have a principle of taxation in place of tithes, established
upon just principles to be applied to national institutions,
and for the attainment of national purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
It is a point that cannot be disputed, that the present
tithe composition is grievous, not only in imposition but in
appropriation, because it does not justly act upon tho
landed property of the country in proportion to the value
of that land.—(Hear, hear.) And, therefore, I say, that
it is better that the principle of taxation should be extin-
guished altogether—( Hear, hear)—and that it be made
a new taxation, such as we ought to have for national
purposes ; and it should be founded upon a just and fair
valuation of the land and property in the country.—( Hear,
hear.) This is the nature of the third proposition. I wish
to divide the fourth proposition in the followino• manner—
" That in our opinion no settlement of the tithe question
can give satisfaction to the people of Ireland which is not
founded upon the foregoing principle, namely, first, the abso-
lute denial that the church now by law established, or of
any other religious denomination in Ireland, has a right to
claim the appropriation of any fund which shall be levied
in any form by a principle of general or compulsory tax-
ation."—(Hear.) And secondly—" That tithe composi-
tion, or any assessment provided in its place, shall be appro-
priated in any manner, to any other objects but those which
are calculated to serve the general interests of the nation,
without any distinction or preference of religious persua-
sion."--( Hear.) I conclude with a fifth resolution, " That
we call upon the people of Ireland not to rest from the
application of all legal and constitutional means to procure
relief from the impost, which is equally oppressive, as it is
degrading."—( Hear.) I wish to bring the question to a
discussion, and I wish to confine myself to that course which
it is proper to adopt under the circumstances that now exist.
I shall shortly, therefore, refer to the difference between
the proposition I now lay before the Association, and that
laid before Parliament.—( Hear.) My proposition was to say
that the Church—which is the Church of a section of Pro-
, testants, but a fraction of the nation—shall be no longer
sustained by a tax drawn from the nation at large.—(Hear.)
My proposition goes to declare that the badge of slavery
shall be torn from the breasts of Irishmen for ever.—(Hear
and cheers.) The proposition made to you in the Bill
brought forward by his Majesty's Government goes to the
effect of keeping that nuisance of the establishment—tithes,
for the sake of the minority—to establish that nuisance for
ever upon the backs of the people of Ireland.—(Hear.) I
admit the Bills says—" we will throw to you some crumbs
from our abundance ;" and the proposers of it imagined that
if the people got some of the crumbs of the rich man's
table, their importunities would be stopped, and their ap-
peals terminated.—(Hear.) But that proposition, although
advisable to take it as a prelude to better things, under the
circumstances which existed--I would proceed to ask you
whether it is fit and proper to adopt such a proposition as
that under the present circumstances ?—(Hear,hear.) Now
having stated what the propositions are which have been
offered to you by his Majesty's Government, I shall next
refer to the propositions which the Tories make. We have
these propositions very clearly and shortly put before us in
a speech reported as having been lately delivered by Lord
Wharncliffe. His Lordship, in that speech, stated, that if
the direct payment of tithes to the clergyman is obviated,
the grievance no longer remains. If they handed the
clergy the exaction themselves, then it would be a grievance ;
but if it is received by the clergy through the medium of
the Government, then 120 grievance at all exists.—(Hear.)
They are to be protected and relieved from the direct pay-
ment of the tax, and it is conceived, forsooth, that the peo-
ple will be satisfied with this principle.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
This is the species of relief whici: the Tory party offer you ;
but there are other points in which the two propositions of
Whigs and Tories agree. They agree in one point, that
monopoly of the Established Church is to be sustained—
that the people of Ireland are still to pay tithes to the Church
of the minority. They agree secondly in the combina-
tion of rents and tithes—they disagree about whether a sur-
plus or not exists—they disagree about giving that surplus
for the education of the people of Ireland. The Whigs say
it shall be given for the education of the people. The To-
ries declare that it shall not, but that as much as was re-
quired should be taken out of the national fund.—(Hear.)
They disagree about another thing—the Whigs say that
the Established Church is to be satisfied by concession,
and that by throwing to them a few crumbs you will
be enabled thereby to continue that incubus. The Tories,
upon the other hand, say, if you once make concessions,
and if you give Irishmen once the taste of religious liberty,
they never will be satisfied till they reign triumphant over
monopoly.—(Hear, hear.) Our position is now changed—

*Avw.• a LUG WM/ ..-- -

other concessions that were being made to us have been
rejected by the House of Lords, and rejected too with
every mark of contempt and insult. You are told that
Ireland is to be again reconquered, that her green fields are
to be again desolated and laid waste, and her people
butchered ; and I ask you, Sir, whether under such circum-
stances, it is not the bounden duty of this Association to
declare, to come forward at once and declare, what are
their views and intentions, what it is they demand, and
what it is they expect ?—(Hear, and cheers.) I say, Sir,
that this is necessary in justice to the people of Ireland ; the
people repose full and entire confidence in this Association—
they have given substantial proofs of this—from their
poverty and their abundance they have given most libe-
rally to your funds.—(Hear, hear, and continued cheers.)
I say that it is incumbent upon us to make such a declara-
tion in justice to the present Government. You justly
praise and eulogise that Government. Sir, there is no
praise or no eulogy that you can bestow upon that Go-
vernment, but in particular upon my Lord Mulgrave, that
is not well merited ; and, therefore, I say it is your duty to
him, and to them, to speak out honestly and candidly upon
this subject. It is to be supposed that all this time the
Government have been preparing a measure for the settle-
ment of this question to lay before Parliament when it
again assembles ; and, therefore, it is not fair nor respect-
ful to keep them in the dark as to your views and wishes
until they come before Parliament, the probable result be-
ing disunion and division amongst their supporters.—(Hear.)
Let Government know what it is the Irish people want.
Sir, there is another reason why it is imperatively ne-
cessary that this Association should come forward upon
this occasion with a declaration of its principles. There was
a resolution passed at a recent meeting of this body, calling
upon the people to come forward and petition. Is it not rea-
sonable that they should know what it is that they are to
petition for ? You should tell them whether it is whole
measures or half measures they are to petition for—whether
whole or half, there is no doubt they will obey the call, if
you but tell them. There is another point in that resolu-
tion to which I would wish to call your attention. It pledges
us to endeavour to obtain a final adjustment, in a satisfac-
tory manner, of the tithe question. The object of the As-
' sociation being a final adjustment, all debates as to instal-
ments are set aside ; and it is therefore necessary that the
Association should declare what that final adjustment is to
he. Sir, on the question of instalments I wish to be dis-
tinctly understood, as I think my views upon that subject
have hitherto been mistaken. I do not object to instalments
being accepted by the Irish people, so far as they will tend
to the advancement of the great object which we all have
in view. I only object to them where I think them calcu-
lated to retard instead of advancing it. It was on this ac-
count I objected to the instalment offered by the Church
Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, there is yet another reason
why this Association should come forward with such a de-
claration. It is of the greatest importance to the rights
of Ireland generally that the foundation of such a decla-
ration should be the total extinction of tithes, as a tax upon
the non-conformance to the tenets of any particular Church
or sect. If ever there was a time at which Ireland had the
power of doing herself justice, of asserting her rights, it is
now, when Ireland has an association in which the highest
ranks are amalgamated with the people for the one good
cause, and if the rights of Ireland are not sustained now,
how can you expect the confidence of the people ?—(Chsers.)
If you do not assert the cause of the people, how can you
hereafter call upon them to rise for any particular purpose ?
The spirit of the people is with you now. Now is the time
to declare that Ireland will not be satisfied except with
justice in the fullest extent.—( Loud cheers.) This Asso-
ciation will have the power of enforcing these rights. It
can never be dissolved until it has obtained justice for
Ireland, or a legislative body—(Tremendous cheering)—a
legislative body which shall truly and really represent the
people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) So far as the tithe question
is concerned it is brought to a course which makes me bold
on the subject. The only thing upon which it has to
depend are the writs of rebellion, and there is so much ex'
pettse -attendant upon a plan lately introduced to combat
these writs, and the difficulty of suing them out will be
such as will, I think, deter any clergyman from using them.
—(Hear, hear) There is another thing which makes it
important for the people to bestir themselves now.—( Hear,
hear.) The Government is a paternal one, and disposed
to treat the people not only with lenity, but with justice.—
Ilear, hear.) That Government should say to the clergy,
You may have your pound of flesh, but you shall not
have any blood : you may take the flesh of the people if
you insist on it, but you shall not have their blood."—
(Hear, hear.) Let the Government only say this, and the
victory is gamed.—(Cheers.) A proposition might come
from a hostile Government, which would have the effect of
throwing the people off their guard, by inducing them to
believe that they were benefitted by it, and it is to this As-
sociation the people must look for advice, and from this
Association the people expect to be told what to do. I say
to the people of Ireland, that no matter however good is
our present Government, they (the people) have nothing to
depend on but themselves. You must depend upon your-
selves, and yourselves alone.—(Cheers.) Under the direc-
tion of that great leader in whom you all place confidence,
you will finally succeed, but you must depend only on your-
selves. In the words which he has often addressed to you,
in the motto which he has in some measure adopted, I too
say to you " Hereditary bondsmen," &c.—(Cheers.) I
say to the people of Ireland, adhere to that adviser, he will
lead you with credit and boldness, and you will soon, under
his guidance, obtain all that you seek for.—(Cheers.)
Only let them see that the people of Ireland are determined
to work their own regeneration, and the thing is accom-
plished, and Ireland is freed,—(Cheers.) My opinion,
Sir, is, Ireland ought to claim religious freedom to the fullest
extent—she ought to see an end to the monopoly of the
Church, it is the right of the people—lreland should emphati-
cally demand that to the fullest extent ; with regard to the
clergy, they should come forward in amity, and not sternly
insist on their legal rights to the fullest extent, under exist-
ing circumstances ; they should not insist on that principle,
if but if they do persevere in exacting their full demand, if
they prove insensible now to the state of this country, if they
show themselves hostile to fair, and equitable, and speedy
arrangement—the final settlement of the tithe question,
why then, Sir, let them get their rights as they can ; and
if more blood be shed—if more slaughter take place—they
will be as culpable of shedding the blood of the people as

if they had armed themselves- with pistols and ;pilled)

themselves. I understand that it is the intention of the
Honourable Member for Kilkenny to propose that the re-
solutions which I shall have the honour of moving to-day
shall be referred for their consideration, to the Standing
Committee of this Association. I have no objection, Sir, to
any proposition of that Hon. Gentleman, to any suggestion as
to the mode of managing our object, or to any alteration in the
wording of the resolutions that may be suggested by him.
I will persevere in urging on the Government to adhere
steadfastly to the great principle laid down in the fourth re-
solution, and to press that that principle shall be fully
sustained and steadily demanded. I want to establish that
the property possessed by the establishment is not the pri-
vate possession—not the right of the Church, but of the
people—and that the relief to that people must be paid
out of—not the Church's, but the people's property. The
people must have relief from this tax. This is a principle,
Sir, which I shall not abandon. I say, that as long as
that principle is not obtained, the people of Ireland are
slaves. I say the people of Ireland, for I, a Protestant,
unite myself with them ; for no Protestant can consider
himself a freeman while he permits the Catholics to con-
tinue in slavery.—(Loud cheering.) On these grounds,
I think it would be a useless waste of time to refer the re-
solutions I propose to a Committee up stairs, the more
particularly, because, if the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Kilkenny suggest any alteration in them, except it
affect the principle, lam ready to adopt it. As to the
principle, I will ask, can Ireland reject it ?—(Cheers.) She
cannot entertain the thought.—(Renewed cheering.) That
the course she must in all honour take, may be the more
clearly seen by her, I will refer to an injunction given to
her in days that are passed, by one of her most illustrious
patriots, the father of the Hon. Member for Meath—
Henry Grattan.—(Cheering.) " Let ndt," said Mr.
Grattan, " a slavish thought have harbour, even for a
night's lodging, in your breast."—(Cheering.) I say now,
if you harbour a slavish thought of compromise, or admit it
to a night's lodging, it will retain possession, and oust the
legal tenant of its rights.—( Hear, hear.) Do not, I entreat
you, rest satisfied with any settlement, if you can avoid it,
short of a full declaration and concession of your rights.—
(Cheers.) Do not now rest satisfied with any proposition
short of such a declaration. In conclusion, I have only to
ask that, if in the course of the discussion any' matter
should arise to require it, I will be conceded the privilege of
a reply.--(Loud cheers.)
Mr. P. LALOR (late Member for the Queen's County)
rose to second the resolutions
proposed by his Hon. Friend
the Member for Dundalk, with great
pleasure, as he con-
ceived there would be no opposition to their reception, hav-
ing heard the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny de-
clare the other day for the total abolition of tithe. That
was the principle which prevailed among ninety-nine out of
every hundred of the people of Ireland, and so strong was
their determination on the subject, there could not be a sa-
tisfactory settlement but by a total abolition. It might be
asked whether they bad any other plan to substitute in place
of that which they proposed to destroy? In reference to
this point lie agreed with the Hon. Member for Dundalk
in the wish he expressed to provide for the existing inte-
rests in the church. He was willing to do this while lie ad-
hered to the
principle that no impost in future should be
levied for the support of the Church on the Irish people.
It was certainly true that the policy of the Catholic Associa-
tion was to take their rights by instalments ;but in this in-
stance if they conceded any position they could not here-
after look for the remainder with the same power as they
could now look for the whole. This was a time in which