The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-06 00:00:00

support.—( Hear, hear.) The application of suclim. man in ^merit, bravery, and reputation, engaged in the species of
behalf of a claim aided by mercy and humanity, shout& 'not, in warfare in which he was engaged at present. The Hon.
his mind, have been met by a reference to chargaaa against Member for Middlesex had made an unjustifiable and un-
Don Carlos.—(Hear, hear.) Such a man, whateve.r his re.. called for attack on the other House of Parliament. The
ligion might be, claimed the respect, and challenged th 3 admi- Hon. Gentleman had said that the proceedings of that
ration, of all who acknowledged the fundamental pri'arciples Hous I. did not meet with his approbation. God forbid they
and practice of all real Christians.—( Hear, hear.) To re- ever should ! God forbid that the advocate of every innovation
turn, however, to the Address. He was willing to admit be ita nature what it might, in the existing institutions of the
that this country should not be looked upon as an is elated country, should sully the proceedings of the House of Lords
land, the condition of which must rematii uninfluence d by with cne word 'of approbation. It was to the House of Lords,
the changes and convulsions that took plaaec in the- greater !lowa.; er, that every sincere friend to the monarchy must look
countries of the world : on the contrary, he' confessed th at i for its protection in this hour of danger. When the reflections
this country must suffer by any injoy being intflicted cnv the. which the Hon. Member for Middlesex had formerly thrown
social condition and happiness of foreigm Statias^, How, then,.. i out, both in that House and out of doors, were recola
could he look at the disordered, distracted state of Spain, with-. 1 lectbd, it would not appear surprising that he should
out entertaining strong apprehensions of evils' and misfortunes? cast such aspersions as he had that evening cast on the
Nothing was more delightful than to turn from the Woolley pica House .of Lords, however derogatory the indulgence of such
ture which that country presented, and to regard the friendly terms must be considered to the character and dignity of a
union subsisting between us and Louis Phillipiae--" the Kieg Member of the House of Commons. What business had
of the Barricades of July"—the ~ Friend of Frotee." Some i Members of the House of Commons on every occasion to
Hon. Gentlemen maintained that thrones we,-e- hallowed I bring the proceedings of the House of Lords into debate?
by legitimacy alone ; why there was not a legitimate` Monarch I What right had they to endeavour to expose the House of
in Europe who could have performed with impun.;ty one- Lords to public odium ? What right had they to assert that
hundredth part of the acts which this friend and proteii•or of tote House of Lords was indifferent to the interests, deaf to
the press and ancient laws has already perpetrated. Why the prayers, and ignorant of the wants of the people ? Such
the Emperor of Russia dare not do so. But the present sl 'ate charge were mcst unjustifiable ; although they were worthy
of France was the penalty which she paid for indulging in of the how. Gentleman who had made them. If he were
that saturnalia of wickedness and cruelty which it was almoa, t called up 037 to make any remarks on the Speech, which, by
impossible should not have been succeeded by the establish- the advice at his Ministers, his Majesty had yesterday made
merit of a despotism. He put it to the Noble Lord whether I from the Throne, he would say that, with the exception of
he did not think he could have selected more faithful allies for 'bat passage which described the principle on which the al-
this country than those which he had chosen.—(No, no.) If leg.ed ajnises in the Irish Muvicipal Corporations ought to
he was wrong in his supposition, he was open to correction. be reform ed, it was vox et preterea nihil. It placed nothing
In his opinion, an alliance with France must be as uncertain in a sat)tdatatory light. One impala-tent question, which had
as ill-tempered mortar. The present generation in that eoun- occasioned so, much warfare in the last Session, was entirely
try could never forget the achievements of this country. The passed over, or at least was confined to a recommendation
next generation would be bred up in the same sentiment of to effect a juaa settlement of the question of tithe in Ire-
hatred.—(No, no.) An alliance with England would always land. He (Mr. Trevor) hoped it might be settled, in the
be an object of detestation in France. The mortified vanity words of the Spec,* " upon such principle as would tend
of the French people would perpetuate this feeling, as long as at length to establisi; harmony and peacein that country."
the military trophies which we had gained at Waterloo should But, considering the ha gds into which the settlement would
continue to exist. Let him, therefore, caution the Noble Lord probably fall, it was impassible not to look with a jealous
against relying too securely, on such an alliance. He did not eye at the question. He coi.'fessed that he had no confidence
say this on the ground of what had been called the natural hos- in men who, in the last sessice of Parliament, supported the
tility between the two countries ; but he asserted, that the iniquitous proposition that Churc.ll property might be applied
events of the last 40 years had created so tremendous a feeling to any other, as well as to ecelesia.atical purposes. Judging
of hostility, that centuries must elapse before it could be from such conduct, he expected only yalans of Church spolia-
calmed. The contest between the new classes of Radicals fiat). If such plans should be proposoac he hoped a feeling
and the old classes of Conservatives had been such as to excite would be manifested on the part of the people of England
M. the most powerful passions of the human breast; and when that would make his Majesty's Ministers patnae in their career.
once excited, great, indeed, was the difficulty of allaying them. -Mr. E WART observed, with reference ter the accusation
Mr. HUME said that the Hon. Member for Dover had preferred by the Hon. Member for Durham against his Hon.
characterised the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster Friend the Member for Middlesex, of treating the House of
in a manner and in language that could not be borne in any ci- Lords with disrespect, that the House of Lords had on former
vilized country.—(No, no, and hear, hear.) There were no occasions been compelled to adopt measures Welt had been
epithets in the English language worse than those which the advocated by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, anal that it was
Hon. Gentleman had applied to his Honourable and Gallant exceedingly probable that they would be bliged to do so
Friend, and to the British troops which were serving under again. There were measures which the Hon. Mewber for
him. Did the Honourable Gentleman seriously think that a Middlesex would advocate_that might be carried—that rallst be
gallant officer, who had so highly distinguished himself in the carried through the other House. The Hon. Member' for
British service, ought to be spoken 'of in such terms? The Sandwich had panegyrized with some vehemence the ph.raa
time would come when his Honourable and Gallant Friend seology in which the Hon. Member for Dover had characta'
would have an opportunity of vindicating himself ; but as the rized the conduct of one of the parties in Spain. On that
time had not arrived, he (Mr. Hume) could not refrain from point he (Mr. Ewart) would only say, that, like the Hon.
protesting against the course which had been pursued by the Member for Middlesex—and he was sure like every other
Honourable Member for Dover. The language used by the Member of that House—he reprobated inhumanity, on which
Honourable Member was entirely inapplicable to the object of side soever it might be exhibited. But there was one part of
his attack, who was perfectly justified in what he had done. the speech of the Hon. Member for Sandwich against which
Was it the first time that English troops had fought under he (Mr. Ewart) must strongly protest; he meant the passage
foreign banners ? And for what did they fight ? For the cause in which the Hon. Member spoke of the enmity that existed
of the Constitution, and for the cause of Liberty. He would between this country and France. He must say that he had
take upon himself to say that, considering the whole of the heard with great regret and pain the declaration, that because
language used by the Honourable Member for Dover, and the one generation might have cherished such an enmityrit must
Honourable Member for Sandwich, with respect to the sys- be cherished by the next generation also. This was a strange
tern of proceedings in Spain, those Honourable Gentlemen and unphilosophical-view of the tendencies of nations, and he
ought to be grateful for any assistance that was calculated to trusted it would prove to be an erroneous one. For his own
put an end to such a system. Did the Honourable Member part, he hailed with infinite satisfaction the statement in his
for Dover suppose that there was any man in that House, on Majesty's Speech of the intimate alliance between the two
which side soever of it he might sit, who approved of the countries—an alliance, however, which he wished to consider
atrocious proceedings of either the Carlists or the aßepub- not so much between the Moparch of this country and the
licans—or who would give his sanction to the dreadful pro- Monarch of Frasice, as between the people of this country and
ceedings which had taken place at Barcelona or elsewhere ? the people of France. To the present Monarch of France it
_—(Hear.) It was true that the Honourable and Learned was impossible not to apply a line from the works of one of the
Member for Dublin alone had in that House distinctly charac- greatest poets of which that country could boast—
terised those proceedings, and had condemed Mina and the " Jamais l'exil n'a corrigd les rois." • -
other individuals connected with them, in the manner in which In those parts of the Address alluded to by the Honourable
they deserved to be characterised; but did the Hon. Member Member for Middlesex, he (Mr. Ewart) cordially concurred.
for Dover therefore suppose that there was any man in that Although circumstances might 'warrant an increase -of the
House prepared to defend those proceedings ? For himself, navy, he trusted that no long time would elapse before they
he willingly admitted that it was impossible to conceive any- would be enabled to reduce the army, especially that part of
thing more horrible than the Barcelona murders. But what it which was quartered in Ireland.—( Hear.) Sure he was
was their cause? It was the violence of the proceedings on that the only real and sure road to economy was through the
the other Side of the question which led to retribution and means of reason and justice.--( Hear.)
punishment. All this only showed what must be the result of Mr. GROVE PRICE, in explanation, begged distinctly
civil war, and ought to act as a strong inducement on those to state that be bad never for a moment intended to express
who had the power of putting an end to it to do so. He there- regret at the alliance between France and England, nor was
fore thought the whole of that portion of the speeches of the he an advocate for the maintenance of any feeling of hereditary
Hon. Members for Dover and Sandwich which was addressed hatred between the two countries.
to this subject was irrelevant; and he thought that those Hon. Mr. POTTER could not but regret the observations which
Gentlemen had cast aspersions where they ought to have ab- ^ had fallen froth the Hon. Member for Durham in reference
_ _ _ _ _ __

to the lion. and Gallant Member for Westminster. The re-
flections attempted to be cast upon the conduct of that Gallant
Officer he thought were wholly uncalled for. As regarded
the Speech delivered from the Throne, he confessed that to
him it had afforded unbounded satisfaction, and as it became
known thrmighout the country, he had no doubt but that the
feeling of satisfaction would become general.—( Hear.) As
a Dissenter, he-begged leave to thank his Majesty's Ministers
for the intimation which the Speech conveyed, of their
tion speedily to remove those grievances under which the dis-
senting body still laboured.—( Hear.) Upon that point he
hoped he might congratulate them that one of the intended
measures of relief would be the removal of the odious impost
known by the name of Church Rates.—( Hear.) He ,rejoiced
exceedingly in the decision to which the House had come last
evening, because he felt it would carry peace to Ireland, and
enable us to carry on the government of that country without
the necessity of maintaining so large a military force as unfor-
tunately had hitherto been found requisite. He hoped, also,
that the men and estimates for the navy would be met by a
large reduction of those for the army.—( Hear. )'
Mr. A. TREVOR, in explanation, begged to state that
the Hon. Member for Wigan, who had just sat down, had
certainly misunderstood what had fallen from him ; he never
made any reflection whatever on the conduct of Gen. Evans.
Dr. BO WRING had heard with great pain -and regret the
speech of the Hon. Member for Sandwich. Last .night he
had hailed it as a triumph for the cause of humanity, liberty,
and civilization, when the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member
for Tamworth, sitting in the same place as that at present
occupied by the Hon. Member for Sandwich, stated that he
saw with delight the arrival of an epoch at which the intimate
union which existed between( France and England might be
referred to as one of the boasts and triumphs of the present
times.—( Hear, hear.) On the other hand, it was with great
distress that he had heard falling from the lips of the Hon.
Member for Sandwich what he would venture to call ca-
lumnies against two great nations. The Hon. Member for
Sandwich represented the Spanish nation as unworthy of
liberty, and he spoke with something like an intimation that
he was intimately acquainted with the circumstances of Spain,
and the nature and character of the troubles by which she was
at present distracted. Emboldened of that knowledge, the
Hon. Member broadly declared that the popular feeling of
Spain was ranged pn the side of Don Carlos. Now the
Hon. Member must allow him (Dr. Bowring) to say that that
was not the fact.—( Hear, hear.) He (Dr. Bowring) was
not without sonic personal knowledge of Spain, and he would
venture to assert that for the last thirty years the people of
the Spanish nation had every day been rising in intelligence,
and every day feeling more and more the desire to obtain con-
stitutional guarantees for their freedom. And he would
venture further to assert, that the Spanish people had entered
upon a career in which they would ultimately succeed—a
career which led to constitutional freedom, and its natural con-
sequences— to happiness, prosperity, and liberty.—( Hear,
hear.) There existed in Spain a desire and determination to
obtain good government, and in spite of Don Carlos, and in
spite of the advocates of 1)on Carlos, the people of Spain
would obtain their desire, and, before long a constitutional Go-
vernment would be firmly established in that country.—( Hear,
hear.) The friends of liberty looked brightly to the future
—the friends of despotism could look;ortly darkly to the past,
--(Hear, hear.) Nor was it true thatahe people of France
had any other than a friendly feeling towards the people of
England. • It had been his privilege to traverse France in all
directions ; and, with the knowledge he had thus obtained of
the feeling of that country, he could venture to assert, that as
soon as England got rid of the incubus which so long had
depressed her energies—as soon as England appeared in her
reformed and regenerated character, every feeling of ani-
mosity ceased, and the affection of France and Frenchmen,
was obtained for her ; and he had no doubt but that England
would reap the full benefit of this improved state of things.—
( Hear, hear.) If the present judicious policy was pursued,
he had no doubt but that all animosities between the two
countries would pass away, and that the alliance between
England and France would establish the peace and prosperity,
not only of Europe, but of the world at large.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON had not intended to have
taken any part in the discussion of the evening, nor should he
have done so but for the notice which the Hon. Member for
Liverpool (Mr. Ewart) had taken for a cheer which came
from him whilst the Hon. Member was speaking. It certainly
did appear to him (Lord F. Egerton) that the line of argu-
ment which the Hon. Member for Liverpool pursued, laid down
the position that this country through all ranks and classes held
something like an unqualified concurrence in the opinions which
the Hon. Member himself entertained. Fancying that to be
the position intended to be laid down, he (Lord F. Egerton)
in his situation in that House, did take the liberty of express-
ing his dissent from it;. for he could not but feel that, however
easy it might be to raise a clamour, and to beat down argument
amidst that portion of the community which was not prone to
express its sentiments in the noise of public meetings--( Hear,
hear)—he (Lord F. Egerton) had at least a right, representing
as he did some thousands of constituents in that House, to
state that those sentiments were not entertained by a portion,
and not the least respectable portion of the community. That
was the meaning of the cheer to which the Hon. Member re-
ferred. Being then before the House, he might perhaps
be allowed to make one or two observations on certain pas-
sages contained in the King's Speech. He was bound to
say that he felt anxious to express, with more energy than
he could convey by a silent vote, his own individual con-
currence in the sentiments expressed (by his Right Hon.
Friend, the Member for Tamvvorth, last evening, and which
met with the approbation of the Noble Lord opposite, with re-
spect to the relative position of this country towards France.—
( Hear.) He might perhaps entertain some doubt as to whe-
ther it were altogether prudent or politic to lay a stress upon
the connexion between the two countries, as compared with
those specific relations which, he thanked God, England still
maintained with respect to the other poivers of Europe.—
(Hear.) Congratulating ourselves too strongly upon our

stained from doing so. The Address itself contained allusions
to so many important questions, that he was unwilling to offer
a single Observation upon them. When he looked at the
statements respecting the prospect of a continuance of pewee
in the woad, the expediency of settling the tithe question in
England and Ireland, the justice of putting the Dissenters on
the s ..e footing as their fellow-subjects, and the other mea-
sur t Vested-to irr the—Address; he, could only say that he
considered those measures as the harbingers of the peace and
prosperity of the empire. On the whole, therefore, he hailed
the Speech from the Throne as pregnant with advantage to the
country. But there was one single point on which he begged
leave to say a word ; be meant the proposition for increasing
the%supplies required for the navy. If his Majesty's Govern-
ment would get rid of ten thousand of the troops now em-
ployed in Ireland (which, in his opinion, under existing cir-
cumstances, they might do with perfect safety), they might
apply the money to the naval service. The reasons assigned
for this increase of the naval expenditure were the same as
those which had been assigned in similar cases by every Go-
vernment in the country during the last twenty years. For
his part he could see no sound reason for the step, and he
hoped his Majesty's Ministers would reconsider it. He pro-
tested against that proposition as the only part of the Speech
and Address to which he had an objection. He repeated that
he had no objection to reduce the army in Ireland for the pur-
pose of increasing the navy. While Ireland was ill-treated
it must be filled with troops; but if justice were done it, if it
were put on the same civil footing as England, so also might
its military establishment. In his opinion, his Majesty's Mi-
nisters in that House deserved great credit for their persevering
resistance to the amendment on the Address which had been
moved by the Hon. Member for Tamworth. He wished their
colleagues in another place had shown equal firmness. How
was it to be understood that Ministers sitting in the' same 'Ca-
binet should hold different opinions on a question of so much
importance ? He was quite aware that it might be supposed
that there was a majority in the other House of Parliament
which rendered any opposition to the proposed amendment
hopeless. But that was the very reason for persevering in that
opposition, as the result would show the country who were the
parties favourable, and who were the parties unfavourable,
to Liberal principles. To him it would be the last recom-
mendation of any proposition to say that it was favoured
by the House of Lards. He considered them as destitute
of fellow-feeling for their countrymen ; as out of the pale
of general sympathy:—( A laugh, and hear, hear.) The
time was coining when this would be the universal conviction
of the community. Though the Lords were privileged, they
wore not privileged to do evil. The proceedings of the House
of Lords last year were not of a nature to recommend the
adoption of any of their propositions. While, therefore, he
congratulated the Ministers in the House of Commons on
their successful resistance to the amendment of last night, he
lamented the acquiescence in it of the Ministers in the other
House of Parliament. This state of things, however, could
not go on long. ~The Lords must be made to feel that the
people were determined upon having a real reform of abuses,
and a good and economical government; and that, unless
they turned over a new leaf, whatever they recommended
would be opposed, and whatever they opposed would be sup-
ported and carried.—(A laugh.) Out of that House, no
voice was raised in favour of the House of Lards. He defied
any man to show him a• public meeting at which the House
of Lords bad been spoken of with favour. They might be
courteously treated in Conservative societies ; but he repeated
his denial, that at any public meeting they had been spoken
well of by any class of the people. He hoped there would
be no change in the determination of that House ; he hoped
there would be no chancre in the determination of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, evinced last year, and in which determina-
tion the country would warmly support them, to yield equal
justice to Scotland, Ireland, and England.—( Hear, hear.)
That certainly would not be the case, if the Tories were to
come into place. He would not refuse them the indulgence
of fancying they might do so • but in his opinion there was
very little chance of it. In the meanwhile, he would continue
strongly to recommend public economy. It had been found
that Acts of Parliament would not keep up the price of corn.
The remedy was to reduce the establishments of the country,
as the prices had been reduced, to the level of the year 1792.
To that 'they must come. The expenses of the Government,
notwithstanding the great reductions which had been made
by the present Administration, were still altogether too much.
The country ought not to be saddled with any additional ex-
pense for the navy or army; and he had confidently expected
that great reductions would have been made in the colonial
and other branches of the Government. Ministers would never
have his uniform support, while he saw them continuing a
larger system of expense than in his opinion they ought to
maintain. With these observations, he entirely concurred in
the proposed Address.
Mr. TREVOR would not have' risen on the present occa-
sion, did he not feel the great injustice of the view which the
Hon. Member for Middlesex had taken of the expressions
which had been used by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Dover. The Hon. Member for Middlesex charged bis Hon.
Friend with having used unjustifiable expressions. He (Mr.
Trevor) was totally ignorant of the fact. Although he bad
listened with the greatest attention to his Honourable Friend's
manly and admirable speech, he was at a loss to call to mind
any expressions which deserved the terms which the lion.
Member for Middlesex had applied to them. He felt greatly
indebted to the Hon. Member for Dover for the luminous
view which he had taken of that most important part of the
Address which had reference to Spain. If ever there was
an instance of improper interference, it was the course which
had been adopted by his Majesty's present Government re-
specting Spanish affairs.--(Hear, hear.) And while he de-
nied that the Honourable Member for Dover bad made a
single unjustifiable personal allusion, he (Mr. Trevor) per-
fectly concurred with him, when he described the British
troops in Spain as the refuse of the rabble in London. With
respect to their commander, it was certainly disgraceful to
the character of our army, to see an officer of such great