The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-23 00:00:00

-tailed to pass. In the last session the Right Hon. Baronet
'aPPosite announced his intention of bringin forward a mea-
sure having the s g
ame object in view, twe thaheter istic of
which measure, honceer, was its declaring- that there should
be no compulsory payment of tithe—it merely afforded the
means of effecting a commutation, supposing the parties had
Previously agreed that It should take place, .ft was conse-
quently the universal opinion with thHardto that measure
at no commutation at all would result from it. It teas evi-
dent that every person likely to be affected by nth a
measure as that—A measure which did net enifbree imme-
diate commutation, but tacitly as it were bad out an intl.
Illation, that if it were not acted upon some other morel
compulsory measure must follow it—would rather take Ma
chance of being compelled by some subscrptent measure,
than immediately avail himself of that, It therefore e be-
cam the duty of any person introducinr, a measure in tip Present day for the commutation of tithes to make the
commutation either wholly voluntary or rernpulsory on
the parties. As, however, the principles of this Bill would in
thall probability be misunderstood, it would be perhaps desirable
at he (the'Solicitor- General) should very shortly state the
objects it proposed to effect. In the first place it I'm clear
that the first step to be taken in framing such a Bill must be to
Is!afford parties agreeing to a commutation the means of etuntng
. into effect. That, accordingly, was the first object of
t,!' —(Hear. )It was said that 'lie consequence of
this facility to persons desirous of effecting a commutation
would be so to confuse the trjunderies of properties as to
)ilekt it extremely doubtful
ted to a commutation. what land was or was not sub-
s:nor-General) to be lint this appeared to him (the Soli-
end ore which c_oul objection to the present system also,
conk' well be obviated. It was one already
tui:enrati°n• 'aco what was the next step to be taken by
r framers "r a Commutation Bill ? Why, to afford the means
ITl:lopeaureicsbting cite commutation in cases where the majority of
cite
it in opposition to the minority. The
re de 'proposed in this instance by the Bill was the most
~,a`,oltable that could possibly be suggested. There was
one step further to which the proposers of this measure
"imposed to go. It was that if either of two parties desired
la commutation, the other being averse to it, then that the
party so desiring it should have the right to compel the
other to come into the arrngement, due care
''.reing taken
at the matter was fairly conducted.Tl is
was the ge-
ncral point to which the Bill proposed to go. Now it cer-
ta
",inly did appear to him (the Solicitor-General) that his
on. and Learned Friend (Mr. Pemberton) was somewhat
inconsistent in his argulnent on this point of the Bill. His
lion. and Learned Frlend. bad actually intimated his intention
1,21.1 apposing the ser.;ond, reading, not because the Bill went too
on. in this respr.ct-, 'but because it did not go far enough.— (Hear, hear.) He now came to the observations of the Hon.
fallen ir•.
Member for Maldon. The Hon. Member seemed to have
1-!e a an error when he objected that the effect of taking
y:crag° of
nt the last seven years would be to arrive at too
'e.4 an amou, as the price of corn during those years would
.e found to be higher than if an average of the last twenty
!GPears had been taken. It appeared to him (the Solicitor-
eforneral) that the Hon. Member was mistaken in this view,
, taking the average of that seven years, it would be found,
that if during the first part of the time the prices were high,
during the latter part of the time the prices were low, and the '
average therefore would be as fair an average as any that
could be had. The question of the number of yet;rs was one
• of detail, and consequently one for the Comnfittee—the prin-
ciple of average would be the same. Tte Honourable Mem-
ber had another objection, which wa:„ that the amount of the
commutation should be calcul.'ced on the amount of rent
actually paid, not on the s''.'aount agreed to be paid, without
alloltin for that which
be g 'was thrown off; but the Hon. Mem-
would find that there was a corrective power in other
clauses of the Will which made it unnecessary to answer the
'abjection. The principle of average was that on which the
teontmutation would be calculated, and by it the proportion of
each tithe.payer would be regulated. There was one objec-
wit which had been repeatedly urged by the Right Hon.
tart. the Member for the University of Oxford, which was
i,thr,ait it was perfectly monstrous to ask the Clergy to accept
'of. 'where they were entitled to claim 1001. It appeared to
(the Solicitor-General) that this objection proceeded.
arn the Right Hon. Gentleman not having sufficiently consi-
dered, the nature of the right of the Clergymen to the 1001.
''as the Right Hon. Gentleman aware that the only con-
upon which the soil was generally made to yield pro-
o ro-
e enough to make the 100/. one-tenth of the whole, was
that the Clergyman should actually take a less sum than
that winich would nominally be due to him? This rnin-
ic,iPle was, in point of fact, actually in operation in most of
t estates in the kingdom, and, if that were the case,
did away with the injustice of asking the Clergyman to
lake a less sum than that to which he was nominally
entitled. These appeared to him (the Solicitor-Ge-
neral) to have been the main objections to the
(1.11, and they certainly appeared to him to be objections to the
"ads entirely, and not to the principle. It was beyond the
Power of legislation at once to meet all the objections which
obCould be raised to a measure, or at once to provide a certain
i universal remedy, by positive enactment, for every anomaly
h might have existed; it was enough if the measure
graPPled boldly with the main question. This the present
measure appeared to him (the Solicitor-General) to do, and
t
ue therefore hoped to see the motion for the second reading
Pass urianimously.
Si'.,' R. INGLIS—As the Hon. and Learned Member who
hiai). just sat down and the Hon. and Learned Member who
wid preceded him in the debate bad severally alluded to him
(Sir R. Inglis) in the course of their observations, he felt
himself bound to trespass for a very few minutes on the atten-
tion of the House. His Noble Friend had said that he desired
maintain the ancient and venerable rights of the Church.
tie (Sir R. Inglis) thought those rights as venerable as law,
and as ancient as justice, and he hoped ultimately to have the
support of all those in the country whose opinions he re-
pected, even though' he might now stand alone in those
extreme opinions which were attributed to him. The Hon.
and Learned Member had said that he (Sir R. Inglis) was in
error bl
.recd complaining that the Clergy should be called on to
hose 601., when they were entitled to 1001. He maintained
this ever, that such a proposition was unjust. He objected to
Posed because it was compulsory, and because it pro-
th7 to be immutable. They had no more-right to deprive
p'rr Clergy of their right to tithe than they would have to de-
Ve Innt (Sir R. Inglis) of his round rents. This was his
o.je t•
:eti. c ion to the principle of the sill—he should state his ob-
°llB to the details on a future occasion. There was one
tiggestion, however, which he would make t;.) the Noble Lord,
fa.ese:teedg:arded the mode in whieh the cormiutation was to be ef-
Would it not be better, inst
.'ead of arriving at once at
T 7 fixed amount or average of rev= years, to make the corn-
eutation depend on a progress calculation, alterable and re-
n %table from year to year.--...(Hear.)
gr.An Host.
asievance of titEhmenhgandsaid. that it appeared to him that the real
W 5 that a person,wl.4o"Joat been
laid
to the House. The evil
d not out a single farthing in the
the
of the sand should be entitled to come in and claim
t.ce tenth of its produce—that one-tenth frequently amounting
of ti_be "
whole, profits of cultivation. Let the case be made that
roor.ufacturer—let a manufacturer expend an immense
andian the erection of machinery and the purchase of stock,
hi: 'ben be liable to the Clergyman for one tenth part of
e.„_"laanufactured goods ; how would he be able to bring his
toe to market ?—( Hear.) In France tithes had been en-
jr,ol,' swept away. —( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches. )
Were n they were going very fast. In' Austria, too, they
beginning to go. But in this country the landlords and
ilqeoltiyators were willing to compromise the matter on fair and
iattietaeble terms. He intended, when the Bill went into Corn-
3'ears to propose a reduction in the average on the seven
Lay • He was satisfied, that imposing a rent charge, would
14, the effect of increasing the value of tithe property. He
toot* that the question of redemption had been left out of
40ti"'eration altogether, and it was his intention, when they
ofprent,t° Committee, to propose an amendment, for the purpose
tinder Hating any redemption of the commutation to be effected
Sir‘,,F;is measure.
• KNATCHBULL said, to do justice to the Clergy,
trkw, he felt persuaded, be the object which all parties had in
But while they did this, while they gave the tithe-
kritater that which was his due, surely it was not unreasonable
IsncntbeY should at the same time afford some relief to the
srds.—
length( Hear, hear, hen.) He would not go into any
tent erred discussion of the details of this measure on the cre-
tin, ,iiccasion, as it wry not, as he before expressed, his inten-
wor to offer any c.pposition to the second reading. There
however, one or two points left untouched by the
k)bi re, to which he wished to call the attention of the
Lord, In the Bill there did not appear to be any
Vesth'''' made for the payment of tithes in case of the
tiern t.„°r 'removal to another parish of the incumbent shortly
sent the tithes becoming due. He was aware that the pre-
tna"V Was defective in this respect, but he also knew that
nbiii3; instances of hardship occurred in consequence of the in-
eireurnY of parties entitled to them to recover tithes under
such
ternediset,,Bnces- But the defect was one which could easily be
!ga one 4`" ,_' He would only call the attention of the Noble Lord
he tak-e"cr point. It was proposed that the average should
kh uccording to the value of the last seven years. This
torde'. to be a matter of detail, but still he hoped the Noble
lap:,
_would take care that the difference between land in til-
tider,ild Pasture land in regard to tithes, should be fairly con-
ske.eu, and thatno 'reoaitleraoportebssour.r_ewould be placed on one
cake" of land thagn ( Hear.) He wished to
„i4ilsi.Ele remark on what had been said about the 100/.
,egaiiv 'Lie clergyman was stated to be entitled. Although
'4ll sPeaking the clergyman had a right to 100/., yet ex-
') 3' garWouldely received more than 75/. The latter amount
objeet,on still get under this Bill, and that being the case, the
Mr: the measure on that head seemed untenable..
11014 said that from the manner in which some
85 if ,ientlemen had discussed the measure, it would seem
`4lere
hag
or 4 co_ was not a general demand throughout the country
mmutation of tithes. He, however, knew that there
sytt.4lgreat outcry in all quarters for an alteration of the tithe
Ins„ and all he regretted was, that there
. were a great
Y tit
ill di., es—those that created most vexation—which this
roptits not touch. He alluded to personal tithes, the tithes
11444' and mixed tithes. They were all aware of the
other Yof collecting the tithes on calves, milk, eggs, and
this ,articles of that description ; and yet, notwithstanding
Cidi, all such tithes would be still payable. The tithes
%tat „ and fishing he considered an unjust impost, because it
toto"ot only not founded on the common law, owing its origin
same t? custom, but amounted to a tax upon labour. The
say,
,linlght be said of the tithe upon mills. He next must
pote.oat the additional charge of 15s. proposed to be im-
WQR il'.°ll every acre of land devoted to the cultivation of hops
tink;_ighly objectionable, and would in fact operate as a most
eni,it'tl'inerease of taxation on those who had expended large
Iciartio 'n Preparing their farms for the production of this
nhietillar article. The tithes on wood formed another subject
that n!leserved consideration, and, for his part, he believed
rneasur.less all small tithes were got rid of for a corn-rent, the
Mr,wouldgive satisfaction to the country.
W4B understood to Mend the measure,