The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF CO M ()NS. June 27.
PRISO I)NCIPLINE.

SContinued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
ir G. le ftEY a .i I that as he had state(' his views on
a former oceasien, in reply to the Hon. Member for
Lambeth ( qr. C. Pears tn). he should not trouble the
House with any observations, but there were one or
two points to which he must advert. In the first place,
then, with regard to the system of prison discipline, it
bad now bad several years of trial under every variety
Of circumstances, and the result had been one which was
quite satisfactory to the public officers. Then as to
the two objects of reforming the offender and the repres-
sion of crime, the report was equally advantageous. The
Ron. Member for Berkshire had taken the opportunity
elf giving from his personal experience a comparison of
the different expenses of the old system and that which
was at present used. Now, with regard to those ex-
penses, it was ascertained that the several cells of York
Castle cost 1,2001. per cell, and those of Millbank cost
500/. per cell, while the cells in Maidstone gaol cost
only 3001. per cell, and those of Reading, of which so
much had been said, had only cost 2001. per cell, while
he believed that the prisons of Manchester, Birmingham,
and Leeds had not cost more than from 1401. to 150 L per
cell. This statement would show the difference between
the old and the present systems, so far as expense was
concerned.
Mr. B. DENISON—And that was not an annual
expense.
Sir G. GREY—That was a very important observa-
tion. The expense incurred was incurred once and for
sever, and thus the benefits were annually increasing.
Then with respect to the representations which had been
made with regard to the moral condition of the pri-
soners. His attention had just been very strongly drawn
to this subject, and he had only just issued a circular to
the inspectors and superintendents of prisons direct-
ing that their reports should be confined to the
facts which came under their notice, and not
contain any observations of their own upon those
facts, observations which tended to impair rather
than to enhance the value of their reports. For
his own part, he had no objection to the appointment of
a Sel. ct Committee for an examination of the whole
subject, and if that suggestion were adopted, he would
take care that the matter was made one of the first con-
sidered in the ensuing session.—(Rear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he believed that during a long expe-
rience there was hardly a gaoler of old standing with
whom he had not conversed on this subject, and he was
sorry ro say that the replies derived from the
whole of them went to show that, whether under
the silent or any other system, that there was very
little hope of the reformation of offenders. The greater
part of the committals were, in three cases out of four,
those of offenders who had previously been intimate with
the rules of prison disJpline.—(Hear, hear.) By far
the best plan would be to prevent rather than cure the
evil; and it would be tar better to send those persons
who were usually the inmates of prisons out of the
country with credit and at their own expense, rather
than in disgrace, and at the expense of the country. He
thought it was absolutely necessary that some system of
general education ought to be adopted, compulsory, if
necessary, but voluntary if it could be obtained,
and paid for by a rate levied on the owners of pro-
perty if the resources could not by any other means
be procured—(flear, hear)—for he believed that in the
end such a rare would prove to them the cheapest
remedy that could possibly be adopted.—(Hear, hear.)
Then he thought by far too much attention was paid to
the comfort of the prisoner, who in fact enjoyed more
of the benefits of life than the hard-workine man, who
refrained from any breach of the laws.—(Hear.) Taking
the whole matter, ho conceived that education was the
best remedy; and if by being made compulsory it was an
interference with the liberty of the subject, it was for the
benefit of the subject.—(Hear.) He should he sorry to
vote against inquiry. but seeine, the disposition evinced
by the Right lion. Baronet the Home Secretary, and the
readiness he had manifested to grant a Committee, he
would recommend to his lion. Friend to withdraw his
motion.
Mr. ADDERLEY said there was such an overwhelm-
ing amount of crime in this country, that statesmen felt
the greatest possible difficulty how to act, and, there •
fore, they adopted that course always which promised
any, the slightest, mitigatien of the evil ; and hence
much of the infelicity of the legislation on this sub-
ject. He would recommend that the prison at Park-
hurst should be turned into a penitentiary for the
reception of that immense class of offenders called juve-
nile misdemeanants, who ought not to be called offenders
at all, but deal; with as an unfortunate class of persons
thrown upon this country for protection. Under the
'present system of prison discipline, virtue was degraded
lay being placed on a per with crime, and crime was dig-
nified by being put on a par with virtuous misfortune. He
should have much pleasure in voting for the amendment
before the House.
Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY entirely concurred with
all that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Montrose
ori this question. It was the great mass of juvenile de-
linquency that they had to deal with. In the gaol of
Bolton, which he was in the habit of visiting, there
were from three hundred to four hundred young
persons confined, from thee to twelve years of age,
and most of whom were committed to gaol eight or ten
times in the course of a twelvemonth. They could
obtain no means of livelihood when they came out of
prison, from the bid character which attached to
them, and they had no alternative but to commit
fresh depredations, so that they mhsht be again
taken to prison, or starve. The dealing with that
class of persons was a most important question
even in a pecuniary point of view for this country;
and there was no way of dealing with it• satisfactorily
and effectually but by a well-digested scheme of edu-
cation.
his. WODEHOUSE gave it as his opinion that this
question had been too long delayed, and hoped it would
be taken vigorotbly up by the Government on the coup
mencement of another session.
Sir JOHN FAKING TON said the separate system
of imprisonment was at variance with our common
law. Of all tho systems of prison discipline the separate
system was the very bast that had yet been discovered;
yet at the same time he could not help regarding it with
very great jealousy and doubt. It had been said the sepa-
rate system made very good prisoners, but not very good
men after they were released. He thought this a proper
subject for a Committee of Inquiry, and he would vote
for the motion of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, but on
this understanding, that by doing so, he did not wish to
imply any reflection on the separate system.
After a few words from Sir GEORE GREY, who
explained with reference to giving his assent to a Commit-
tee of Inquiry, that the Committee would not be limited
to the consideration of one system only of prison discip-
line, but would embrace a liberal consideration of the
whole question.
Sir HENRY HALFORD,- in deference to the wishes
of the House and of the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, would withdraw his amendment, but on the
understanding that the same objections should prevail
against the motion of the Hon. Member for Lambeth.
Mr. C. PEARSON rose to reply. The separate
system was one of great cruelty, and had the effect of
increasing the number of criminals. Under this system
no hard labour was allowed; the only approach to it was
a crank wheel, at which ten persona worked, this being
just the amount of labour to employ the mind. Education
was the great work carried on there, as appeared from
the examination of a visiting magistrate at one of those

establishments. The prisoners were too well treated

It would be seen that a'great number of offences against
the prison discipline consisted of destroying the food
which had been given them in too great quantities. It
was not right to inflict a punishment upon a man which
left him at the end ut the punishment less able to earn
an honest living then he wa. before, and this was the
effect of the .epArate system. He was prepated to
prove that whatever might be the effect of the grega-
rious system, they were not to be compared with those of

the separate system, against which he raissd his voice. At
Reading gaol, where they had a trades instructor dressed
out in all ►the accoutrements &official dignity, the whole

amount of the year's labour in the gaol Was 61. 2s. Bd.
The flight Hon. Baronet had told them the cost had been

2001. 1;)r cell, but ha thought the Right Hon. Baronet
was wrong ; that might be the first cast, but many ad-
ditieus had been necessary. From the reports
of the inspectors they would find that in this

gaol great attention was paid to the comforts of
the worthy gentlemen who were confined here. They
had yards to exercise in, and contrivanc,s by which, it
it rained or the sun shone too stron4ly on them, they
could cover thernsPlves, and walk without allowing
the wind of heaven to blow too roughly upon
them. The great 'ernes of Howard, Rrmilly, and
Bentham had been lued in favour of this system.
Bat he could not think that this was fair. It was not
unlikely that M the voluminous works of gentlemen
some sentences might be Caught up
'
and converted into
.arguments favour of this system. It the H.ouse would
give him a Committee on this suh)ect he w„,,14,
atake
his seat in it upon the fict of proving till that he had
starred. He would not divide the House upon his motion
on the present occasion, but he would in the first wee& of
the next session renew the motion in its present shape.
During the ensuing recess he should visit soma of the

principal towns in the kingdom, in order to ascertain
their opinions upon the subject.
After scm observations from Viscount BARRINGTON
and Sir J. PARINGTON, the motion was withdrawn.
BANKRUPT AND INSOLVENT MEMBERS BILL.
The Rouse then resolved itself into Committee on
this Bill.

Mr. GOULBURN objected to the further proceeding
with the Bill. He thought if the House were to pass
this Bill, and deprive Members of Parliament of their
privilege of being free from arrest for debt, they ought
not to legislate with respect to the payment of debts of
Members, but leave them in that respect on the same
footing as other persons.
Mr. FIUME took the same view of the subject.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought such a pro-
ceeding would be worse than the one proposed, for a
Member might be arrested and 19ft in prison, and his
constituents remain altogether unrepresented.
Mr. C. WYNN thought they were proceeding rather
too fist. If they passed the present Bill they would place
themselves in an Inferior position to the other House of
of Parliament. He thought the further consideration of
the Bill should be suspended, and that a resolution should
be passed to the effect that they would not enforce their
privilege of freedom from arrest.
Mr. LAW moved that the Chairman report progress.
—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide.")
After some discussion,

Mr. MOFFATT appeiled to the law officers of the
Crown to state their opinions.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought it would be
well that the Chairman should report progress.
The galleries were cleared, but no division took place,
the ca9tion being agreed to. . _

The House resumed, the CJIAIIINAN reported progress,
and asked leave to sit again.