The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-28 00:00:00

NOLDS, JUN.

BATESON wished-to ask whether there was any
truth in the report that a young gentleman under age,
the ton of Mr. Reynolds, a solicitor of Ireland, had been
appointed Solicitor for the Mint in that country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No,
sir.—(Great laughter.) The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was proceeding to make some further
observations when he was restrained ; but as
soon as the laughter which had convulsed the
House had subsided he rose, and stated that the
offices of Solicitor for Ireland and Solicitor for
the Mint in that country had be ea consolidated, and
that he believed that young Mr. Reynolds was not cum-
petent to take the position of a solicitor. He had cer-
tainly recoinmended him to be appointed to the situation
of a clerk in the solicitor's office, and he believed that he
was so appointed.—(Hear, hear.)
PAPERS FROM THE FOREIGN DEPARTMENT.
Mr. URQUHART wished to asked the Noble Lord
the Secretary for the Foreign Department, what was
the reason why the papers which ho had promised in
part six weeks ago had not sooner been laid on the table
of the House.

Lord PALMERSTON said that he had not presented
these papers owing to a difficulty in getting them toge-
ther; but as soon as ho could procure them from the
hands of the printer, they should be laid on the table of
the House.
Mr. URQUHART said that the Noble Lord had not
answered his question and stated the reason of the delay.
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had promised the
papers in part, that is, abstracts from them • but circum-
stancei:had so transpired that he was enabled to give
them in tit(); and of course it was clear that more time
was'required to giv6.-the whole than only a part of the
documents.—(Hear, hear,):
SICILIAN AFFAIRS.
Mr. BANKES wished to ask whether the Noble
Lard had received any information respecting the
ptibgress of affairs in Sicily ?
Lord PALMERSTON had not received any such in-
formation.

SEIZURE OF THE BOMBAY STEAMER.
Mr; DISRAELI said, it would be in the recollection
of the House, that some time, since a steamer called the
Bombay, which had been bought or was, at least, engaged
in the seivice'of the Sicilian insurgents, had been seized.
He wished to know' whether there was any truth in the
report that the Government contemplated giving the
agents of the insurrectionary committee any assist-
ance in the liberation of the vessel.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the law officers of the
Crown, to whom an appeal had beeu made, had not given
their opinion, but should it express any decision that
- the detention was illegal, every assistance would be
given for its liberation; but at present they had no
grounds to believe it illegal.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the further proceedings
on this Bill to Monday se'nnight.
POOR-LAWS (IRELAND)—RATE IN AID BILL.
Atter a short discussion, the House went into Commit-
tee On this Bill; Mr:BERNAL in the. Chair.
On the question that the first clause stand part of the
Bill,

Sir H. W. BARRON complained of the great in-
justice of the measure towards the rate payers of
Ireland, and expressed his surprise at the temerity of
the Government in bringing forward such a mea-
sure. He was not opposed to a poor-rate;
so far from it he had proposed a measure on
die subject long before the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government had thought of it. Ho was
surprised that the Government had not brought for-
ward such a measure as the present, when their
Own Commissioners had reported that the
rate-payers could bear no additonal burdens.
Now he might be asked where the resources for the
support of the Irish poor in default of thii measure were
to be derived from? Why that question had been an-
swered in the true Irish fashion by Mr. Twistleton him-
self, who called upon Government to tell him how a
people could,support themselves who had for the last two
or three years been dependent upon the contributions
of Englartd. Government had not condescended to reply
to that query, but still the question was a very pertinent
one, and for the want of an opinion from her Majesty's
Goverintent, he would undertake to supply the defi-
ciency himself. A people in that state suggested by Mr.
Twisleton could only return to a position of self-depen-
dence by stages'and degrees; and unless Government were
prepared to make further grants to Ireland, they never
would succeed in carrying such a measure as this into
effect: Some immediate temporary aid must be afforded
to ;he people of iirelard, or they would be unable to

overcome the difficulties that already encompassed
them. This rate in aid would not alone relieve them; on
the contrary, it would have the effect of demoralising them,
and, considering the unjustness of the principle upon
which it was based, he for one was not surprised that it
had met with so much opposition in the sister kingdom.
The taxes from which Ireland suffered so much were
such that English proprietors had no conception of
them. They talked about the three per cent. of the
income-tax. but the fact was, that taking the rateable
property of Ireland at thirteen millions, they would find
that it was taxed at the rate of nine per cent.
Were they surprised, then, that those who were subject
to distress, poverty, and destitution should raise their
voice against the injustice of this new infliction.
They were about to try a fearful experiment, and they
should not flatter themselves that if it ended
in ruin, as he thought it would, they
would alone crucify and destroy property in Ireland, for
they themselves must be entombed in the same destruc-
tion. He, therefore, thought -that it was the duty of
the House and the Government to stem the torrent of
ruin which inevitably awaited them. No less than
7,000 or 8,000 men were employed in collect-
ing poor-rates in Ireland, among whom there
were e'ghteen captains, 120 subalterns, and a number
of field-officers, besides large numbers of the police.
When they saw landed proprietors in poverty,
formers seeking the shelter of the workhouse,
masses of the people dying of hunger, it was
full time for the repreaentatives of Ireland to
appeal to the justice of England not to place
a new tax upon an already impoverished country.
Take an estate rated at 1,0001., the collection would coat
501. a year; 2504 for charges and family inheritances;
3s. in the pound, or 1504 for other charges; and further
3s. in the pound the estimated loss from bad tenants—
altogether 6001. a year, leaving but 400/. Then, this
new rate would deduct 251. more from this miserably
small stipend. This he believed was a fair average case.
After the miseries of Ireland, the failure of her potato
crop, was this a fitting time to inflict a new tax upon
an impoverished people? Therefore he should oppose in
every shape the imposition of a tax fraught with so much
mischief.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
On clause 1 being read,
Capt. JONES moved the omission of the words, " to
fix and declare from time to time certain sums." The
persons who paid that rate in aid, he submitted,
did not determine the amount or manner in which it
was expended, and had been no parties whatever to the
proposal for that rate in aid.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said, that as the clause now
stood it would have the effect of imposing a rate of 6d.
in the pound upon the very persons for whose behalf
the rate was to be levied. He should support the amend-
ment of his Gallant Friend near him.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not deny the truth
of some of the observations made by Honourable
Gentlemen opposite with regard to the destitution which
prevailed in some of the Irish unions; but he must at
the same time deprecate the use of language which
would imply that England had not done its best to re-
lieve the sufferings of the Irish population. When he
heard it said that England did 'nothing for Ireland, he
would only point to the advance of upwards of nine
millions sterling. The case, however, was this; that
there did prevail, unfortunately, in the present year, as
there bad before, a deep and extensive distress, arising
from the failure of the food. The House of Commons
was not inclined, he was sure, to meet the dilliculty by
new advances; and, therefore, be would ask how, unless
this Bill was to be carried, they could provide for what
would occur between the Ist of May and the Ist of August.
The House having resolved in favour of this rate in aid,
resolved upon it at its second reading, he asked the
Committee to allow the Bill. He did not say anything
about the dreadful state of things which prevailed in
some of the unions, except that where it would be diffi
cult, if not impossible to collect it, it would not be col-
lected. If it were suggested that the Government should
give a list, and should mention the names of the unions
in which the rate would be collected, he would only
answer, that supposing they were to do so it would be
obvious that in the course of a week or a fortnight, other
unions not they included would have to be included.—
(Hear, hear.) Therefore, without going further into
the arguments, he would ask the Committee to adopt
the words, carrying the rate in aid. He did not mean
to say but that many circumstances might contribute to
render the Bill disadvantageous in certain localities, but
in the present emergency it was the only resource left
them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. STAFFORD said that the Noble Lord had
opened a very important question, by stating that in
many unions the sixpenny rate would be dispensed with.
It was to be observed, with reference to that under-
standing, that the clause contained no discretionary or
dispensatory power by which the Commissioners could
exempt a distressed division from the collection of the
rate.

Sir GEORGE GREY said he thought that the Hon.
Member for Northamptonshire had misapprehended the
answer of his Noble Friend. An Hon. Member asked
if the rate could be collected in all the unions, and his
Noble Friend said frankly that it could not. The
dispensing power was by no means a new difficulty; on
the contrary it was one which necessarily attachd to
many measures.
Lord CASTLEREAGH showed from a return of the
Financial Commission with respect to 13 unions in the
south and west of Ireland, including Bantry, Kenmare,
and Ga:way, that the income of those unions in 1848,
after deducting their expenditure and liabilities for
1849, would have a deficit of 378,2161. Taking the rate
in aid for tbo:e unions at its full amount of 611. in the
pound, the rateable property would produce 329,6851.,
which would be inadequate to make up the deficit by
48,5311. What would take place in those unions was,
he believed, only a type of what would take place ge-
nerally.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS said that of the 2,000
electoral divisions in Ireland, 539 did not pay five shil-
lings in the pound upon their assessed rating. He
thought it utterly hopeless to raise the sixpenny rate
generally, or to a sufficient extent, in addition to the
current expenses. lie very much regretted that the
Ch iirman's decision should have prevented him from re-
commending the House to exempt certain unions from
the rate, which he would have named, because he could
not agree with the Noble Lord that that work would
prove interminable if once commenced.
Sir GEORGE GREY said he understood the amend-
ment to be substantially an objection to the entire
clause.
Captain JONES said his objection was to the entire
clause, but he wished to confine the discussion to one
point.
Sir R. FERGUSON recommended that they should
not divide upon words, but take a division upon a sub-
stantial objection.
Mr. SADLEIR said he wished to call the attention of
the Government to the fact that, as the Bill now stood,
there were electoral divisions in Ireland which could
evado the payment of the rate in aid. What they should
do would be, to sell those estates which were liable to
the poor rate, but which could not be levied.
Sir ARTHUR I3ROOKE objected to the rate in aid,
which he thought never could be collected but by very
severe coercive means. He should prefer an income tax
upon fair principles, which he should support.
Sir W. VERNER opposed the rate in aid altogether,
which he thought ceuld never be collected in Ulster.
Mr. STAFFORD said, as an English Member, when
this Bill was proposed as a security for 100,0001., it was
his duty to see that it was as good security as possible.
He objected to the provision which gave a discretionary
power to the Poor-law Commissioners to exempt unions
which were in difficulties from the payment of the rate.
Ho thought this ought to be levied as a separate rate.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt bound to concur in
the opinion expressed, that this rate in aid would en-
danger the working of the whole poor-law.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Msiority for the clause ... —53
Mr. FAGAN moved the following proviso:—" Pro-
vided always, that the occupier of all rateable heredita-
ments in any union who shall not have any greater
estate or interest therein than a tenancy from year to
year, or wbo shall hold under a lease or leases, termi-
nable on the demise of one life, concurrent with thirty-
one years, or under a lease of years not exceeding thirty
one years, or under a lease for one life without years
concurrent therewith, shall be entitled to deduct frons
the rent payable by him to his immediate lessor, the full
amount of all rates :and arrears of rate paid by him
under and by virtue of this Act. Provided further, that
every person not an occupier as aforesaid, who shall pay
rent in respect of any land or tenements, shall not be
entitled to deduct from the rent paid by him, any
reeoepiorretdionhyto him,the amount
sourratthn a sum
eadeducted
bearingfrom
th
the
suchrent proportion
as the rent paid by him bears to the rent received
by him."
Lord J. RUSSELL said he wished to know from the
Chairman whether it was competent to discuss this pro-
posal, which appeared to be opposed to the principles of
the Bill and the existing poor-law.
The CHAIRMAN said he felt considerable difficulties
in answering the question, and would therefore decline
to express any positive opinion.
Sir G. GREY said that as the Bill was now drawn, it
would be impossible to insert this proviso.
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho had consulted the Speaker,
who thought that tbis clause would involve an alteration
of the poor-law, it would not be competent for the Com-
mittee to entertain it. The difficulty was whether it did
or did not.

Colonel DUNNE said that the point of form should
be decided. Who was to decido the question—the
Chairman or the Committee ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE thought that this proviso in-
volved an alteration in the existing law.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that uo Committee of that
House was authorised to impose a tax or alter an exist-
ing tax without a previous resolution of the whole House.
The CHAIRMAN said he did not feel at all clear
upon the point, and could not express any definite opinion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that as the Chairman did not
seem to think the objection conclusive, he had no objet •
tion to discuss the clause on the merits.
Mr. P. S',3ROPE said, he was of opinion that the tax
should be borne by the landlords, and not by the tenants
of Ireland, and be hoped it would go forth 'who were the
landlords who would generously come forward and bear
the tax themselves.
Major BLACKALL thought it would be unfair to
throw this rate upon the landlords. He should oppose
the amendment.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE opposed the amendment, and
trusted, under the circumstances, it would not be pressed
on the House.

Mr. HAMILTON also opposed the amendment.
Mr. REYNOLDS said it appeared to him that the
fair construction of the amendment was to throw the
rate in aid upon the landlords, and for that reason he
should support it.—(Rear, hear, and laughter.) During
the discussion on tho present question Hon. Gentlemen
on the opposite side opposed the megsureom the ground