The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.. •

HOUSE OF LORDS, SEPTEMBgIt 27•

The Royal assent was, by commission, given to the -
lowing Bills :—The Surplus Ways and Means Bill
Waterloo-bridge Street Bill; and one private Bill. IT,
Lords Commissioners were—the Loan CHANCELLOR,'
Archbishop of CANTERBURY, end the Duke of flaceratose'
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented two petitio°l •
from Queenborough, and one from Seaford againstlta",
Reform Bill.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition ft,..e°l
Walbroek Ward, in the city of London, in favour of :
Reform Bill.
The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from D9e.
peth in favour of Reform.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented two Pe.ti.
tions from Galway in favour of an extension of the elect.°
franchise.
Lord CLONCURRY presented a petition from 1118
city of Dublin in favour of Reform. The Noble L°l'
stated that the petition was agreed to at a meeting Oiled
by the Lord Mayor.
Lord BEXLEY presented a petition from Harwiell.
against Reform.
Lord TENTERDEN moved that the Prescription Ltt
mitations Bill be printed with the amendments, and tba
the report he received on Friday next.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said be was Of
it had fallen to the lot of so humble an individual as hier;
self to grapple or complain of the Noble and Learned
Lord on the Woolsack. It had been said by the
Noble and Learned Lord • that that House was
most disorderly he had seen. He (the Marquis 0
Londonderry) must say, that be had never seen 6,8
Noble and Learned Lord rise to order but the tltta.7•
attention was paid to him, and he hoped that at the tit'
that statement was made to have seen some Noble I,°,
more competent than him take up the subject. Pe
undoubtedly .considered that the first duty of the per:
son 'filling the situation of Load Chancellor was bra
attendance to his duty in that House. He (the Margo"
of Londonderry) had a motion relative to foreiga,
affairs, which he should have brought forward teg___'
night even in the absence of the Noble Earl (Grey), Pr'
vided the Noble and Learned Lord, who was the chamni°°
of the Government on all occasions, and particularly those
rele ring to foreign matters, had been in his place,hut
to the absence of both those Noble personages he colt
not bring it forward. Was it to be allowed that the Noh'e
and Learned Lord should take to himself such a large share
of praise for attention to the duties of his office,
and others,
had had such men as Canning, Castlereagh,
who, he believed, had fallen a sacrifice to their e°or
11,::
etant application to the cares of Government.
one, would not hear such praises heaped upon the 11°,...."1
and Learned Lord without entering his protest an
them. Was it to be allowed also that the Noble a°
Learned Lord should be in town, receiving large 014,01;
ments, and yet not attend to his duties in his place ? to
third standing order on their Lordships' books referredio
such a case. It might be admitted to him and other's!°
had been bred in the camp the he'
to outstephe
of the orders of the House, but it was to
duty of a Lord Chancellor to know and to obey th_&
rules. The Noble Marquis concluded by throwing hi
upon the House, stating that be was aware be ought i 4
have left this subject to one more competent than bine
but he felt it his duty to bring it forward, because
felt it was the first duty of the Lord Chancellor to stt
in his place in that House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Never was there °if
human being in any office or place, or connected with 10
office or place, against whom a charge was brought
utterly and entirely without foundation as the charge IL°lf
preferred by the Noble Marquis against him. He certal,;,
felt distressed at being the cause of their Lordsh`r;
valuable time being taken up with a matter purely,
sonal to himself; but he would have felt much more a 2;
tressed if he could have been justly accusedof ,ligew-
ne
and a want of attention to his duty. But he ,0°°„1
state a few circumstances from which it would llPPe'r
when they:,
that he could not be charged with negligence °
a want of attention to his duty either here or elsesvheT
and therefore felt no anxiety about the result of the 14°.b be
Marquis's accusations. The charge against him was, that
had been negligent and careless of discharging his duty by,
seating himself from his place in that House without causeo..,l
that he had absented himself without any necessity or g Lie
cause, leaving others to do his duty for him. The u%
Marquis, while he ascribed to him a degree of talent aye
merit to which he had no pretensions, had added that d,'
had no greater merit than his predecessors. Non's!ch
oaanase aki
ryy thata n anyd claim
without
therei
t ho
u tot
was merit,one
making
thinga did
c in soai
in happenmitting that he was not worthy to occupy the place 10411,
ha I been held by those whom be had succeeded, yet, Wr ss
i
u
had got through the arrear of business of the Court
Chancery °f
yield to none of his predecessors, and that was, in a
stant and perpetual desire, above all earthly things, tr
i tlwhichto
merit,e l l l
e
must it making
wo
tbui2
gently and anxiously to perform the duties of his 107 j
tion.—( Hear, hear.) Party might sometimes be aro
thing, but never had a man been so blinded by party
the Noble Marquis was when he charged him with neg.,)
genre and a want of attention to his duty,—(Hear, beer'
Such a degree of blindness, arising from party feeh,s°,
was what he had never tirfore had any conception o",h,
(Hear, heir, from the Ministerial Benches.) From he
silence of the Noble Lords on one side of the House/„it
might conclude that he had a considerable number nit6o
Lordships against him.—(No, no, from the OPP°e"iss
Benches. His Lordship made a profound bow t° dt
Lords on that side of the House. A loud laugh on btesri
sides of the House.) Why, then, he had only the soli of
Neble Marquis himself to answer—or at least but alf
few more. He would admit, then, that the Noble its
quis had been perfectly candid in preferring his elle he
and that he had a perfect right to make that charge I'os
thought proper. But he would state a few circunots° of
in his own justification ; and he trusted to the candoe,roct
the Noble Marquis himself fora confession that his tie'fo
was satisfactory. When the Noble Marquis adverted %eels
having got rid of arrears, it looked as if he had
ti
making a boast of his having so done, and the Noble
quis said that Ile could not bear to hear the services:"
ehrneatcti iytahtaeebdys
ewno
ort e
du dl
det
htheealmivoesreatteeepdst ;f
from
ooawnin and
nt
htthabete
0;00
if.A predecessorsta:r,yuiisi
aadd fdreeddq,eupt
He was the last man in the world who would wish t° pdf
tract from the merits of his Noble and Learned Fr'e oti
who preceded him in the office of Lord Chancellor; skft
if he had been able to bring up the arrear, they had
means in his hands to enable him to do so—for tbei.,o
settled and established the principles and bases of deci° he
and he had only to apply them. He had before ma osis
same observation in that House, at a time when the 41i.tfe
Marquis was not present. He was persuaded that
Noble Marquis had been present, he would not If ts,
charged him with presuming to take merit to hita,se bp,
the expence of his predecessors. But a stranger, if bid
herd the Noble Marquis, would have thought that
been making a boast of what be had done in bringhloot
the arrears. He had made no such boast. He h 3.40
f
said a word on the subject, although the Noble 141
had. He would, however, state, as accurately as hefela
the number of hours during which he had been abseil% VII
the legislative business of that House in the week,"ooll
he had devoted to the Court of Chancery. He had the
benefited about eight hours by his absence duringbeeo
whole week, and he ought *to add, that he had not that
absent without notice to the House. He had statecho'
he was anxious to devote that week to the Court of oosse
eery, and had in a manner asked the leave of t bring 0P
to be absent, that he might make an effort to —; 01/
the Court of Chancery before he proceeded bringiooo,
the arrears of the House of Lords. The reas°° .00
that it was a great object with the Chancery nirrl and
to have that Court-door closed for the season,
rot
then the Scotch Counsel would be in town at:nil/oder;
and remain during the whole of the Session. lie d acid
stood that his Noble and Learned Friend (Eldon) ha dor
the other night, that the first duty of the Lord Cha°o,,olt
was to attend the House of Lords ; but he was vet,' 'Yes
mistaken if that Noble and Learned Earl had not tor
somewhat differently when his immediate nted'od
(Lyndhurst) had come into office. Unless he was 00
much deceived, the Noble and Learned Earl had °,Ol,
occasion said that the first duty of the Lord Chance
to attend the Court of Chancery. But he had been edito
from that House only during six days, and be was refor
have attended at any hour if there had been occasion tbs'
During these six days it ought to be recollected, ale°i,eforo
there was no business of any very great importance i% or
the House—and that the House had sat only till !cog
seven o'clock. There was therefore no very Part.'hseet
occasion for his attendance here, and he was Oily fie
fie
for an hour, or two hours at most, on each niV:nd be,
would have done no good here if he had attended; Heat)
would have done a great deal of evil to himselt.."-,(,t elace,
The Noble Marquis ought to have recollected, t.,":„
the 22d of November last, except during a few dad °
he was out of town, be had frequently sat in the
Chancery till twelve o'clock at night, besides atte°,.l.4eri;
duty in the House of Lords, when that was ne--ed 0°
and by this severe labour which he had hnE,oBo,olet
himself, the suitors in the Court of Chancery had beo)
great saving both in time and expence.---(ilear',oole
bee
Then it was to be considered that he bad given 01' 04
week during which he might well have n

r.
UER 27.
en to the fo,
ns Bill ; the
e Bill. The
CELLOItt
RICHMOND'
two petiti°, .14
1 against the

)etition fro°
favour of the

on from Ma'

ted two peti•
if the elective

on from the,
Noble Loll
neeting calle

om HartviciL
!scription
Li'
t., and tbo.'

was there 01
,ected with ai°l
Vas brought ;
the charge tl°l,
~ He certsie',
eir LordshiPs,
pure
ter ly Pe.r.
ouch more dit'
d of ne,2lige!bi
But he w"r
t would appear
negligence
re or elsewhe.7
tit of the i'l°Ter
urn was, that [1
g his duty by' fr_
without cau4.---
;ecessity or good le
1. The N"u
e of talent an
e
added that li
ors. Now, d,
the place vl4l, I
;eded, yet, wniie
happen that f
of the Court!
;n1 to merit nde
vhich he Foul,
was, in aCO
, ii,
Illy things, "Is,
les of his sd°
;times be a g°:,
ded by Pa'
ntYoli'
him with e.var,)
—(Hear,
n party feeli,ng;
,nnception 01.;
es.) From tt,,
f the HotoeYe't
number of th
";
the OpP°''ttine
nd bow tao;
I laugh on teri
only the aoberi
least but a 'OO,
the Noble It cre
ring his
lat charge '
ces,
w circunvitan et
o the candaarre,
that his &leo
is adverted too
; if he bad
„fir
the Noble ',1,15
he services ,°' bie
; and the l'eo
down the atreoo
from that 0° de,
ould wish t°,0(14
Learned Fr" 0,3
Chancellor; -left
ar, they bad, pad
so—fur the) pop
03
bases of de°i9
IA
tlie
before ':401)1'
! when the if $l4
;uaded that 10,1
would not if el
exit to hill° lid
tranger, if ha bad
lught that vedQ
e in bringiq
ast. He had °i9
e Noble IW•r;tlJ,
rately as be eiforo
I been absent
,ich
the weep 0011
He had the
once during been
he bad n°t, that
e had state ban'
0.
.e Court of gotyS
ave of th' ng ac
!ffort to bri.,,goP
;eded bring"•o9l
The reason •,tero
iancery Barr
the season/
rate,
town at any der
sing. Ile unsaid
(Eldon) 113",1100
e Lord Chatte
very °P) 0
he was oiee
rl had not 'Poor
•liate Predef-,.,ed
nless he "'as 001
Earl had ott trej
Id Chancellor of
he bad bee° ar,. to
,ledn hoec:Na•saisorireafortbi3l;
ollected, allefore
• of
importance, ;
it only ealsf
part' ept
no vt , , abs,„
le was 00_ it,
3. each nigh' a be
I attended, fainfeat,)
himself. siti
°lce
lected, tha
8 a
few (I°Y t of
at the C ..° _ur,lets
sides atten
;at WO
nece-'d
bad llnl")ee de a
had O'a )
InCerY ear.
Heart ;bole
given up 3:„
have been L"

%untry, to the hearing of appeals in that House, and had
taril and disposed of fifteen long appeals. He had even sat
;41 the Saturday before Easter Sunday, and he hid sat on
Easter aleaday for the hearing of appeals—the first time,
Perhaps, that any person holding the Great Seal had ever
gat on Easter Monday.—(Hear.) It was by following
!)e rule that he had got through the iirrear of business in
the Court of Chancery, of which, however, he made no
boast. He had followed the maxim " take care of the
toi
tic,
butes, and the hours will take care of themselves." Bet
had never said word, implying that he was superior
1° his red a
ceepctessors, or even that he was on a level with
them,
ex
as to diligence, and an anxious desire to do
I\l'arduty. Then, as to the last thing of which the Noble
Lat clll's had accused him—his absence from the House
mg•ht---lie would tell the Noble Marquis how that
He had mentioned on Friday that it would he ne-
seeessarY for him to be absent for a day or two, and that a
ss'eputy Speaker would sit on the Woolsack ; but he had
gat °n Saturday from ten to five o'clock hearing appeals.—
wi.s he had often done, so that no time might be lost.
latever the Noble Marquis might think, he believed that
the G
(Hear of the Bar did not think that be was idle.
.--e'll:tie:nre'dhear) Oa one occasion he had heard three
cars after the other business of the House was over. He
this in order to show that he had not been idle
s-a(stear, hear) and he could tell the Noble Marquis
d v
t had out ha not only brought up the arrears in Chancery,
torda. very nearly brought up that of she House of
of
this
There were only two Scotch appeals remaining to
"!_of all those that bad been entered on the first day
Enter °n• As to the few English appeals that were
could not them until tbe Judges came to
when,: tat?' he could notea'l them to town at this time,
frent;',;_urY were enjoying in the country a short respite
t—f ""eir severe labour's. He had already stated that he
sat
ten o'clock till four or ought n Saturday ; but
where
an circumstance that to be stated,
Pass Wag, that he had been seriously ill for three weeks
had' Batt
that he could not have done better even if he
av @° he
been well.—(Hear.) He had felt weak and had
ohs:L.lll'd cough, and the Noble Marquis might have
in
rived that lie was every now and then taking medicine
(1147) t"enable him to continue to discharge his duty.—
state 110 had therefore been almost compelled to
for 4:"" it would be necessary for him to go to the North
:15Weelt in order to recruit his health so as to be able
lowed the fatigues of the next week. An invitation had,.
the et', been given him to spend two or three days in
able Ziur'trY elsewhere, and he thought, that even to en-
he ea ,_4l to discharge his duty in their Lordships' House,
ass to avail himself of that invitation. He could
inta: the Noble Marquis that he had been so ill that he
for h:cughed for two hours together without intermission ;
else, cough was more like a looping-cough than anything
had but now he would tell the Noble Marquis that he
the never felt better in his life than he did to-day,—
'''clear' ear.) He intended to resume his labours at ten
Nojk t ho.anurrow and he hoped to be able to meet the
vi'vvel‘larquis nest week. That was the short and simple
twtilolou ttitdutefinitseihhvy
eetaaets. The discussions on the Reform Bill
and long, but he hoped he would be able
to all his duties in that House during the whole
toted' As for the standing orders, they provided that the
as 8 Chancellor should be ordinarily present in the House
it a Pe."l'eri and therefore he must not be absent for weeks
it/N.1;11e. But then the words " ordinarily present,"
alat"eialet, hat the Lord Chancellor might occasionally be
appointand therefore Deputy Speakers had been usually
Lora ed in Order to do the duty in the absence of the
(In,Chaneellor, and sonic of his friends had done that
chf',.oc him. His Noble and Learned Friend, the
to " Justice of the King's Bench, had beard causes
eou that
House ill Spring instead of going to the
r!!,,,r).', as he might have done, and by this means
Ca, -au been able to devote his time to the
sZrt of Chancery. His Noble aud Learned Fliend,
everi made a pleasure of his business, as be had ocea-
to—oi_°!ay of him before in another place. Now, in order
, u% that for the Deputy to sit for the Chancellor, he
had to refer to what took place in 1797, in the time of
tr °I his predecessors. The House was informed that
De l'Ord Chancellor was absent, and it so happened, the
ra Speaker was absent also. No reason was assigned
at,-1" , ; but what did the House do? They immediately
'entated the Duke of Portland Speaker, and the occasion
as no less than that of a prorogation of Parliament. It
pat!' not then so stranae a thing for a Deputy to act in the
mence of the 'Lord Chancellor, nor for the House to rap-
lot a s . both. He had saidall
kshadt:ni:eaker in the absence of
ritheb) because he was anxious to clear himself from
....with a; of imputation of having treated this House
a,'"srespect, or of having been inattentive to his duty.
(Near hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELDON—It was necessary that the
~Peaker or his Deputy should attend, in order to protect
sae , .„
absere'.rer"gative of the Crown, but the House in their
she "( had the power to appoint a Speaker, and this
tni wed that there might be times at which the Chancellor
gll,t be absent, and also that his Deputy might be occa-
tnnaLlY absent. and there might sometimes be good reason
tsrl,t"eir being both absent. But the rule had been, that
tail: the Lord Chancellor was absent, one of the
.most
lltertt Judges at the lead of the Courts in Westminster
had- should be appointed Speaker. As for himself, he
not been a
then be never recollected able toget rid of the arrear of appeals
in
tin
that
Hse; but
u° e the House
sit-
had till the month of ()doer, and this year the Session
had '"tomenced in June, or at the beginning of July. He
thatl4,ed all the exertions to bring up the arrear of appeals
1 n, Atue forms of the House as they existed at that time al.
the,;,t'hu- And then, after all that had been said about
hoe -tvetiaYs in the Court of Chancery, he was not the per-
the .'l° ought to he blamed far them. In consequence of
witi"PPointulent of the Vice-Chancellor, he had been
the 'drawn from the Court of Chancery for three days in
itilaele,eek in order to attend that House, and it was impos-
'is, ',dispose of as much business in three days as in
/night Vie rule as to this House was, that the Speaker
at h" absent if he had a good and sufficient excuse
.for
variaah;"dino ; but in the times of his predecessors the in-
out Ole was, that the Speaker was never absent with-
',tit 4:tug to the Deputy-Speaker that he was to be ab-
‘vas),ll‘. the reason for that absence. Last night there
(L 1.4 most important Bill—the Pluralities' Bill—before
etdeluse, to which a Noble and Learned Friend of his
ahle 'VYnford), not now present, had stated unanswer-
W% Neetions, to tvhich no reply had been given ; and it
1114 °tithe highest' importance that the Lord Chancellor
confessq have been present on that occasion, for if he had
taißhed that the objections were unanswerable the Bill
1)14-4 might
have passed. He thought that, alter the OZ.
Learnt ‘4 which they had heard from the Noble and
4ati,, Lord, they ought to put an end to the conver-
Pas;'; but lie should certainly not let the next Session
titeh44'"Y
tter to without submitting to their Lordships a motion
Le provide against the in conveni..nce complained of.
tonall HOLLAND would not enter into any of the per-
ten tuerits of the Noble and Learned Lord to whom that
fsl""sation principally related, after the clear and power-
ait,lltlaniition which his Noble and Learned Friend had
tit of his absence. Neither would he say anything of
he tilllPPosed injury done to the dignity of that House, for
Noble4la that that dignity was best consulted where the
wax Lord was engaged in dealing out justice where it
Whif"°st wanted, rather than in sitting on the woolsack
4t th a fete of their Lordships might be taken the oaths
" table. The Noble Marquis opposite had. given
"Pytiee a matter of order ; but yet he had riot directed
tish.,`?der to be read, neither had he made anymotio.nnutepnotn
-he' their Lordships could say content or notco
tu'llgtal their Lordships to look at what the orderw
The°". at its date, and at the constitution of thatdHouse.he
tite order bore (late so far back as the year 1660, and
ted if that House had ever before acknowledge the
tint- t°f the Lord Keeper to sit as their Speaker. At
hth,e
tWeee„v4,len the order bore date, a question had arisen is-
Poin; tile Crown and the House as to the right to apa
then; a Sneaker, and a compromise took place betveeali
appoirit
;0n which the House resolved, that if tie person
Proeee,ed by the Crown (lid not attend, they would then
auy to
in
, appoint a Speaker theseli es. Suppose
by
Ilona the Crown did not appoint a Speaker to that
ei%e e( the Minister who advised the Crown not to exer-
t° e el pr g ative in that manner would be liable
Loueure; hut low could such a circumstance affect the
Lord and dignity of the House of Lords? The Noble
isolauti:e4 referred to various orders and parts of their
was nut
Journals, for the purpose of showing that it
attea:(4)ligatory-On the Lord Keeper to be in corestant
geed ante; he observed further that the Lord keeper
Oppo e-
be a Member of that House. The Noble Earl
gals for had re'erred to an entry in their Lordships Jour-
tatd the purpose of establishing the position that the
to 01, Chancellor was not at liberty to absent himself even
4
tet"lence to the commands (al his Majesty, but that
W 0: language of the minority. He confessed that it
fern ratbernew to have the doctrine of protests brought
11144,14 as authority in that House, and lie confessed too,
Rai`'e circunistauce somewhat tickled his vanity, for he
(A 1,4„14,°re experienced protester than the Noble Earl.—
Ate tlgft.) Ile looked upon the sudden predilection of
hlit"e Earl for protests as a good omen, for it plainly
tehti 'ted that be looked forward to a long prospect of pro-
Wounhf.---(A laugh.) Be that, however, as it might, he
eotdi contend that neither upon any rule of order, or ac-
attael',lg to the constitution of that House, could any blame
(th'' to the Noble and Learned Lord.
be h-ee,Niarquis of LONDONDERRY, in reply, said that
"' never questioned the assiduity of the Noble Lord

in getting through the business of his high office, neither
did he question the knowledge or the talents of the Noble
Lord ; what he contended for was this, that the orders of
the House should be complied with or meinded.
Here the conversation dropped.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from Bromsey (Southampton), in favour of RefOrtn; and
one from the weavers of Glasgow (as we understood) to
the same effect.
The Report on the London Coal Bill was received, and
the Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
The Game Bill was considered in Committee, and the
Report ordered to be received to-morrow.
The Report on the Administration of Justice (Ireland)
Bill was received, and the Bill was ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.
The Decrees in Equity Bill was considered in Com-
mittee, and ordered to be received to-morrow.
Lord AUCKLAND moved the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Wine Duties' Bill, but after a
remark from the Earl of ABERDEEN, it was postponed to
Thursday.
The Special Constables' Bill was considered in Com-
mittee—the Report to be received to-morrow.
The Beer Bill went through a similar stage.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, SEPTEMBER 27.
The SPEAKER took the Chair to-day at a Quarter be-
fore Four o'clock.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of his intention to post-
pone the cab of the House to Wednesday week.
Lord CASTLEREAGH presented a petition from
Glenarn, in the county of Antrim, in favour of the grant
to the Kildare-street Society. Great dissatisfaction was
experienced in that part of Iteland which the Noble Lord
had the honour of representing, in consequence of the
measures intended to he adopted by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters with reference to this subject, considering that
they had been treated with a want of care and attention
by the Government.
Mr. RUTHVEN observed, that in the North of Ireland
a great division of opinion existed upon the subject, but
generally speaking that part of country was greatly
obliged to his Majesty's Ministers for the course they had
thought fit to pursue with reference to this measure.
After a few words from Mr. D. Brown, Mr. O'Connell,
Sir Robert Bo t,son, and Colonel Sibthorpe, the petition
was ordered to be printed.
Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from the Principal
of the University of Edinburgh, the Lord Provost, and
others, the trustees of a charity in that city, complaining of
a certain portion of the Reform Bill. In 1817 certain pro-
perty had been bequeathed to the charity, and the trustees
in the same year obtained an Act of Parliament to sell the
superiorities, all of which gave the right of voting, but of
that right they would be deprived by the Scotch Reform
Bill. The Hon. Member appealed to any Member at all
acquainted with Scotch law, to say whether or not this
superiority did not give a clear and distinct right of
voting, and if such be the case, which was clearly
conferred by a special Act of Parliament, the deprivation
of that right, which was a valuable property, should be
followed by compensation to the injured. In every in-
stance in which private property was taken for the public
benefit compensation was given, and upon that principle
the petitioners prayed an investigation into their case with
a view of being compensated.
Mr. PRINGLE spoke in a very low tone, but was un-
derstood to support the prayer of the petition.
Mr. CAMPBELL said the House had not heard of a
single petition from a proprietor of English rotten boroughs
praying for compensation, and lie regretted it should be
left to the Scotch to be the first who should claim it, for
the loss of that which they never had a right to.—(Hear,
hear.) In fact, it was not intended to take any property
from the petitioners ; their property remained, but the
power of voting was taken away, and the sooner that was
done the better it would be for the country.—(Hear.)
Mr. DIXON was surprised to hear the Hon. and
Learned Member class the case of the English rotten bo-
' roughs with that of the petitioners.—(Hear.) If the
House would institute an inquiry, it would be seen that

the superiorities in Scotland were legal qualifications, and
ought not to be taken away.
Mr. GILLON observed, that the property would re•
main, and only the right of voting, which should never
have been possessed by the superiorities, would be taken
away. The only way by which the petitioners would be
injured would be, by the lessening the pride of the supe-
riorities, which was enhanced in consequence of the power
of voting being attached to them.
Sir E. SUGDEN said the proprietors of boroughs in
England never contemplated such a thing as to demand a
compensation. As these superiorities were in the nature
of burgage tenures, and as the English burgige tenures
were to be done away with, he thought the petitioners
should not he entitled to compensation.
Mr. KENNEDY observed that the Bill merely deprived
a person possessing superiorities of the power of enhancing
their value by a system of political jobbing._(Hear.)
After a few words front Mr. DuNnAs, Mr. CAMPBELL,
and Lord STOItMONT,
Sir C. FORBES said, if their were any political jobbing,
it lay with the Ministers and the Lord Advocate—(Hear)—
who, to effect the object they had in view were robbing
and plundering, not only the freeholders of England, hut
also those of Scotland. He contended that the freeholder'.
of Scotland had as much right to their superiorities as any
Member of the House had to his estate—
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

The How. ME:1111E11, was interrupted in his spi ecb by
the entr aloe of the Usher of the Black Rod, who sum-
moned the House to the bar of the House of Lords, to
hear the Royal Assent given to several Bills. The Speaker,
attended by several Members, then left the House, and on
their return the Right Hon Gentleman read a list of the
Bills (for which Fee the Lords' report) to which the Royal
Assent had been given.
Sir C. FORBES then proceeded to contend, that as
the superiorities were to be taken away for the public
good, the owners were entitled t, compensation. The
Hon. Baronet proceeded at some length to declaim
upon the effect of the Reform Bill, which lie designated a
revo!utionary measufe, without which the country had
long flourished, and would still continued to do so, if his Ma-
jesty's Ministers would let well alone. The great body of
the people in the Scotch counties (lid not want Reform ;
they desired 110 such measure as that proposed, and he,
for one, would take care that not one of his tenantry
should have a vote under it inflicted upon him.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter. ) He considered it the greatest curse
on the tenantry of Scotland to make them politicia6s, they
had no desire to have votes, and be would take care, that
instead of leases for seven years, his tenants should have
leases for six years and eleven months, and instead of pay-
ing 501. a year, tiny should pay him 491. 193. 6d.
Sir E. SUGDEN had nut at all objected to the so-
periorities of Scotland, but could not see the justice of
the principles which would give compensation to them,
while it was refused in the case of burgage-tenures.
Sir R. INGLIS supported the prayer of the pAition,
and stated his convictien that the petitioners had asked
much less than they were entitled to obtain.
Mr. GORDON brought up the report of the Committee
on papers relative to Windsor Castle.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, in moving that the Order of
the Day for a call of the House be read, with the view
of postponing it till Monday, the 10th October, he had
been induced to do so M consequence of an intimation be
hail received that the Hon. Member fur Oakhainp-
ton (Sir R. Vyvyan) meant to move an amendment.
The Irish Reform Bill had been deferred till the Bth of
October, and he was desirous tit avail himself of all con-
stitutional means which the orders of the House put in his
power to enforce upon that ocea-ion, and upon the ensu-
ing Monday the fullest attendance of all tiie Members of
the House.—(Hear.) The Hun. Member then moved
that the order of the day for the call of the House be read.
The Clerk having read the ruder,
Mr. O'CONNELL moved that the House be called over
on the 10th of October next.
Sir R. VI! VYAN said, that in consequence of the un-
usual course which the Hon. Member for Kerry had on
this occasion pursued, to the great inconvenience of the
House, be should move as an amendment, that the order
of the day be now discharged.
HUNT seconded the motion.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought that whenever the subject
of Reform was to lie submitted to consideration of the
House, whether in the shape of Engltsh, Scotch, or Irish
Bills, it was the duty of all Members to be present —and
the fullest attendance of the Howe ought not to he sacri-
ficed to private interests or arrangements.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON agreed with the course pursued
by the lion. Member for Kerry, and would vote in favour
of his motion.
Mr. HUNT rose to repel the insinuations cat upon the
Members ttf the House by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber (Mr. O'Connell), and asked where that Hon. Gentle-
aim was when the division on the Scotch Reform Bill
took place—certainly not in his place in that House.
General PALMER said he had a personal reason for
supporting the motion, dictated, as he hoped, by his sense
of public duty. Having hitlairto failed in ltts endeavours
to speak on the sulnect of Reform, lie was still anxious to
do it, whilst the attendance of Menthols Justified the
attempt, and encouraged him to make it, insomuch that
the view he had taken of the question was different from
all who had risen in the debate ; and that, notwitbstand-
lug the speeches of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite upon

the Bill which had passed the House, he confidently hoped,
if allowed the opportunity upon the one before it, to sa-
tisfy every mind that was open to conviction of the neces-
sity of the measure.
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORPE,
Lord ALTHORP denied that the affairs of Ireland had
been in any degree neglected by the Legislature, as the ex-
perience of 26 years had thoroughly convinced him of the
contrary.—(Hear, bear.) He thought it was highly de•
sirable that there should be a full attendance of Members
on the discussion of the Irish Reform Bill ; and therefore
should not oppose any step that might be taken for the
purpose of securing it.
Sir R. PEEL also denied the charge of indifference to
Ireland, in which the Legislature must always have as
deep an interest at it could be supposed to possess in any
other part of his :Majesty's dominions.—(Hear.) This
frequent postponement of the call of the House appeared
to him very objectionable and inconvenient ; and, seeing
that no such measure had been taken with reference to
the English or Scotch Reform Bills, he should vote for
the motion of the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Oak-
hampton.
Mr. SHEIL contended that the postponements of the
order for the call of the House were not at all attributable
to the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry.
Mr. H. GRATTAN supported the motion of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman.
Sir C. FORBES, in allusion to the precedence cif the
Scotch Reform Bill, insisted on the right of Scotland to
stand next to England, and would not allow any thing
that the Hon. and Learned Member could say to convince
him that Ireland ought to be thrust in between two
countries that stood in such direct juxta-position.—
(Laughter.) The Irish, therefore, had no reason to be
dissatisfied.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in answer to the Member for Pres-
ton, stated that he had choice of three counties at the last
election, and decided for his native county of Kerry. This
was entirely owing to the opinion which his countrymen
entertained of him, for they knew his honesty—(oh, oh)
—t ey were sensible of his candour—(oll)—and they
were aware that double-dealing was not amongst his
habits. He had never, like the Member for Preston,
spoken on one side and voted on another ; the Ultra-
Tories hail got the benefit of his speeches, though they lost
his votes, and he wished them joy of their bargain.;.-,-
(Laughter.) He did not mean to contend that the post-
ponement of the Irish Bill was a slight to Ireland, but
there could be no doubt that lit was an injury to her in-
terests, which he considered a still more serious ground of
complaint. But when he was told that Englishmen had
brought forward the Catholic question—it was easy to say
that Mr. Fox had brought that question forward, but it
was convenient to forget other circumstances of Mr. Fox's.
conduct with respect to it. It was convenient to forget,
that two years after his having brought it forward, Mr.
Fox entered into office under an agreement with George
EL that he was not to bring forward that question while
in office.
Sir R. VYVYAN said that the Hon. Member should
not have the satisfaction, which he seemed to desire, of
making a complaint that his call might be put off. He
should have the call on the day which he named for it, for
he (Sir R. Vyvyan) would withdraw his opposition to it.
—(Cheers from the Opposition.) The Hon. and Learned
Member, who wished to bear down that House.—(Cheers)
—would find that Englishmen, and Scotchmen, and Irish-
men, would not allow themselves to be borne down by him,
or to he driven front their purpose by any course which
that Hon. and Learned Member might please to take.
Mr. HUME said, that the charge of the Hon. Baronet,
the Member for Oakhampton, that his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Kerry, wished to bear down the House, was
most unjust and unfounded.—(Cries of " No, no.") He
repeated that it was. The course taken by his Hon. and
Learned Friend was perfectly justifiable. Ile postponed
his call, because the second reading of the Bill to which
it applied was also postponed. What other course could
he have adopted ? The conduct of the Hon. Baronet and
those who supported him on this occasion was such as be
had seldom witnessed—and such as. in his opinion, was
unbecoming English gentlemen.—(Cries of "No, no," and
" Order.") He would assert that it was—it was at least
unbecoming English legislators. If Hon. Members wished
to be treated as English gentlemen, let them behave as
English gentlemen.—(Loud cries of "Order.")
The SPEAKER—It must be obvious to the Hon.
Member himself; that such an imputation as his language
conveyed was quite out of order.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME repeated, that the conduct of several lion.
Members to his Hon. and Learned Friend (the Member
for Kerry) was altogether indecent and unbecoming them
is Legislators.—(No, no.) Such opposition was most
unfair, and his Hun. Friend was justified in complaining
of it as he had done.
Sir R. VYVYAN wished to ask the Hon. Member for
Middlesex whether he accused him of acting in a manner
unbecoming an English gentleman.
Air. HUME spoke of the Hon. Baronet's conduct as a
legislater.—(Cries of " No, no.") lie believed he had
used the words " English gentleman," but he did not
mean it as personally offensive, for he had no wish to hurt
the feelings of any man, but he had goal reason to cotn-
plain of the conduct of several Hon. Members to his Hon.
and Learned Friend, who was perfectly right in the course
he had adopted.
Lord ALTHORP wished to correct a mistake into
which the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry had fallen
with respect to Mr. Fox. The Hut. and Learned Mem-
ber stated that Mr. Fox had taken office under a pledge or
agreement with George 111. that lie would not bring on
the Catholic question during his administration. Now this
was not the fact. On the contrary, it was well known
that Mr. Fox and his friends went out of office in 1807,
because they found they could not carry the Catholic ques-
tion.—( Hear, hear.)
The question was then put and carried, that the House
be called over on the 10th of October.
FRANCE AND BELGIUM.—GREECE.
Sir R. I'YVYAN said he rose to call the attention of
the Noble Lord (Palmerston) to a subject connected with
the present state of Belgium, and to ask a question con-
cerning it. The House was aware that the affairs of Bel-
gium had now arrived at that ,tate at which they might
congratulate his Majesty's Government at having obtained
that which he had no doubt they would obtain by a firm
perseverance,—at having obtained from those at the head
of the Government of France a promise that the whole
of
the French troops should be withdrawn from Belgium.
This was, in his opinion, a most important Hot gained.
and he congratulated Ministers upon it. But he had
been given to understand that an arrangement had
1 itchy been entered into between the Governments of
France and algium, by which officers of high rank and
great reputation in the French armies were to be allowed
to enter t' iieleian service, and to take die chief com-
mand of her armies under the Kite, and to he placed at
the head of the several tlivisions of the army in different
;tarts of the kingdom. Now it :vas well known that the
troops of one country, officered by the subjects of another,
were, genereliy speaking, under the controul of that
country to which the officers belonged. This was the
case with the native troops in India, which were all
officered by British officers. The question which he
wished to put to the Noble Lord was, whether it was
correct that such an arrangement as he had mentioned
had been made between France and Belgium, and whether
that arrangement had become the subject of any commu-
nications between the Governments of France and of this
country ? Another question which he wished to ask re-
Itted to the present condition of Greece. Ile understood
that disturbances had recently broken out in several parts
of that country, which made its internal condition as un-
settled as when the war was carried on there between the
Turks and the Greeks. What be wished to know
was, whether the three Powers who had taken an active
part in the offal's of that country, bad made any arrange-
went as to the future government of Greece, or as to who
should be placed at the head its Government.
Lord PALNIERSTON said he would not then enter
into any discussion on the subject which the Hon. Ba-
ronet hail himself voluntarily postponed yesterday. As
td the first question which the Hon. Baronet had put, he
(Lord Palmerston) must again throw himself on the in-
dulgence of the House, when lie stated that he ought not
to be caked upon to answer questions as to the arrange-
ments which an independent sovereign whom we had ack-
nowle,fged might think proper to adopt with respect to
his own army, or to the defence of his country. He must
therefore decline to answer the Hon. Baronet's first ques-
tion. As to the second question, respecting the state of
Greece, lie would admit that accounts had reached this
country of the occurrence of some unfortunate events in
in Greece; but he trusted that they were only temporary
derangements, and that by this time they were at an end.
The conference of the three Powers were still continued,
for the purpose of making arrangements by which the
tranquillity of that country might be restored and placed
on a permanent basis.
Here the subject dropped.
CASE OF JOHN LEARY.
Mr- O'CONNELL rose to submit the motion of which
he had given notice, for the production of any correspond-
ence which took place between Baron Pennefather and the
Irish Government on the subject of the conviction and sen-
tence of John Leary, at the late special commission at
Cork. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman here stated in
detail the case of the trial and conviction of the prisoner,
which will be brought sufficiently to the recollection of

most of our readers by the following brief outline:—
! Leary, who was a small farmer, was accused with three or
four others of a conspiracy to murder. He was tried se-
parately and found guilty and sentenced to death, without
any hope being held out of any mitigation of his sentence.
On the next day one of the conspirators was tried on the
same evidence, but the jury could not come to an agree-
ment as to the verdict, and were at length discharged with-
out giving any. The two others were afterwards tried,
and though the jury were, he might say, selected by
Government, there having been no less than forty-seven
jurors challenged by the Crown before the twelve were
sworn, they acquitted them without leaving the box. The
prisoner about whom the jury could not agree was tried
at the following assizes and also acquitted. On this Leary
was respited, and at length his sentence was commuted
to transportation for life, though the Judge before whom he
was tried had made two or three communications to Govern-
ment on his behalf. Now it appeared to him that this pri-
soner's case was an extremely hard one. The alleged con-
spirators were all acquitted by the breaking down of the
chief witness against them. Had that even taken place
on the trial of Leary, he also would hare been acquitted.
Or had he had the good luck to be tried second or third,
he would now be at home with his family instead of being
tinder sentence of transportation for life at New South
Wales. What I,e contended was, that if the Government
believed the evidence against the man sufficient, they ought
not to have mitigated his sentence ; hut if they did not
believe it, he was entitled to a full acquittal from all
punishment. 11 order to let the House see what was the
opinion of the Judge who tried him as to his case, he now
moved for the production of the correspondence between
that Learned Judge and the Irish Government on the
subject.
Mr. CALLAGHAN seconded the motion.
Mr. STANLEY said, that this not the first time this
subject had been brought forward by the Hon. and Learned
Member, though now for a very different object from the
former occasion. On that occasion he had moved for the
production of the Judge's notes of the trial, which the
House refused on the same ground on which he (Mr.
Stanley) now objected to this motion,—that the House
was not the: proper place for the introduction of such a
question, as a sort of court of appeal from the decision of
a court of justice. The breaking down of the chief wit-
ness against Leary and the others was not from any con-
tradiction in his testimony, but from the mention of a
fact—an important one, be admitted—which he had
omitted to state in his original depositions, and which did
not come out till after the trial of Leary ; but a most re-
spectable jury afterwards convicted two men on the testi-
mony of the same witness.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the men who were thus con-
, victed were not for the same offence of which Leary was
accused. They were accused of firing at a Magistrate in
his carriage, with intent to kill him, and the fact was pu:
beyond doubt. The charge against Leary was quiLe a dif-
ferent thing.
Lord ALTHORP objected to the motion. He thought
it would be a dangerous precedent that the communica-
r tions of Judges respecting the case of prisoners should be
submitted to Parliament.
• Sir C. WETHERELL also objected to the motion on
the same grounds as the Noble Lord.
I Mr. JEPHSON would have felt satisfied if the Ga-
-1 vernment had undertaken to investigate this affair; but as
• the case stood he must support the motion.
, Mr. CRAMPTON objected to the disclosure of confi-
i dential communications, and contended that even if the
House were to agree to the production of the papers called
, for, the object of the mover would not be obtained.
Mr. CALLAGIIAN supported the motion. He said
that the objections made to it were altogether of a technical
nature.

Mr. H. GRATTAN maintained that the papers moved
for were of a public and not a private nature.
Mr.D.W. HARVEY concurred in the observations which
had been made respecting the general inconvenience of
making that House a place of appeal from a court of jus-
tice ; but be thought that a case like the present, in which
so many attestations of innocence had been made, formed
an exception to the general rule.
Mr. HUME supported the motion.
Mr. STANLEY said, that those Hon. Members who
spoke in favour of the motion, proceeded on two assump-
tions,—that John Leary was innocent, and that no investi-
gation had been made into his case. Now the fact wa.,
that the late Government went into a full investigation of
his case, and came to the conclusion that that person was
guilty. Whether his own opinion on this matter coincided
in every particular with that of the late Government he
would not say, but he thought the present mode of pro.
ceeding improper. After what had occurred be should
ccrtainly investigate the papers.—(Hear.)
' Mr. O'CONNELL thought that after the promise made
by the Secretary of Ireland to investigate the case, the
dehate•might now be allowed to terminate.—(Herr.) The
lion. and Learned Gentleman then withdrew his motion.
CASE OF THE DEACLES.

Mr. P. MILDMAY rose to present a petition from the
City and suburbs of Winchester, most respectably signed
by the local authorities, by professional men, clergymen,
honkers, and tradesmen, on the subject of the charges
which had been preferred against certain Magistrates, for
their alleged ill-treatment of Mr. and Mrs. Deanle. The
petition had been signed by 330 persons in the space of
'LS hours, and many more signatures would have been ob-
tained, if longer time had been allowed. The petitioners
had been induced to come forward for the purpose of
statina how much they were indebted to the Magistracy
for their persevering exertions to put down riot last year ;
and they desired that a full and fair investigation might
be set on foot to clear one of that body from what they be-
lieved to be most unfounded calumnies. lie was anxious
that the gentleman who was more immediately connected
with this trans.iction should, as a magistrate, have an op-
portunity of removing the imputations that had been cast
on him, and, as a friend, he wished that steps should be
taken to put an end to that suspense of mind which every
honest arid upright man must teel to be the severest afnie-
tion.—(llear, hear.)
The petition was read at length.
Colonel EVANS said he had to present a petition from
Tunbridge, in Kent, also calling for investigation, but con-
taining sentiments and opinions very different from those
which had been expressed in the petition just presented.
Claims of indulgence had been made for the conduct of the
Ay
said,
he Le not entered into the Magistrates in consequence of the excitement which had
prevailed at the time, and he thought that a similar claim
might be put forward On behalf of the misguided people,
when their distress was considered.
Mr. HUME said he hail, on a former occasion, pre-
sent, d a petition on this subject from Winchester, which
in six hours had been signed by 210 individuals. In
it
pre-
senting that petition he had not entered into the merits of
To that rule, however, the Hon. Mem.
her
the case, because he understood that nothing was to be
i
stated with respect to it until after it had been investigated
by a Col.
ees.ter had not adhere.%
Die. for l
\:\7 e
case at all, but merely stated the feelings and wishes of the
petitioners.
Mr. A. BARING said. his understanding of the matter
was, that the question should not be gone into until after
the investigation ; but he did not know that suck an agree-
ment could operate as an objection to the petition being
read and laid on the table. With respect to the petition
alluded to by the Hon. Member for 'Middlesex, he had
gone to the Journal Office and examined it, and he saw
affixed to it that were known in Win-
very few names
chester. The ignorance of the petitioners as to the facts
was such, that they totally mis-stated the whole case, so
that much weight could not attach to their representa-
tions. They went so far as to soy that Mr. Walter Long •
had put on the handcuffs ; whereas, it was notorious that
Mr. Walter Long was not present at all.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped that the Hon. Member would take an opportu-
nity to read the petition, and to judge of its canten's, if he
wished, as he said he did, to do justice to all parties. '1 he
petition now presented was signed by the corporate autho-
rities of Winchester, by the heals of Winchester College.
by professional men, by bankers, and by tradesmen, all
well known in that town and its vicinity ; while that
which bad been presented by the Hon. Member was nut
signed by six names which persons conversant with the
town had ever heard of before.
After some further discussion between Mr. Ilume,
Colonel Evans, Sir C. Wetherell, Colonel Trench, and
Mr. Hunt, the petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr- HUNT presented a petition, calling for an investi-
gation of the case of the Deacles, from (as the petition had
it) the undersigned " in behalf of the North Western
Branch of the National Union. agreed to at a meeting held
at the Bazaar Coffee-house, Castle-street, Oxford-market.
Sr C. WETHERELL objected to the petition being
received, on account of the irregularity of the manner in
..e,hich it was signed. It did not appear whether the par-
ties signing formed a portion of the meeting at which the
petition was agreed to.
This gave rise to a protracted convetsation, which ended
in Mr. Hunt's consenting to withdraw the petition.
Mr. HUME presented two petitions, one from High
Wycombe, and another from Louth, Lincolnshire, praying
for inquity into the case of Mr. tmd Mrs. Deacle; also a
petition from Thomas and Caroline Deacle, complaining of
the treatment they had received, and praying the Hou.e to
grant them redress.
On the question that the last petition do lie on the table,
Mr, O'CONNELL breceived /um"
Sal C al atO

nication from Mr. and Mrs. Deacle, intimating that
it would be more convenient if the subject of the in-
quiiy were deferred, and he recommended the Hon. and
Gallant Member not to press his motion to-night.
Colonel EVANS said, that if the ends of justice wire
answered, he should not press it to. night.
Mr. J. CAMPBELL was averse to the postponement
of the motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, it was only with the view of
being better able to show that a Committee ought to be
granted, that the parties wished the motion to be postponed
Lord ALTHORP said he had admitted that there bad
been some misunderstanding as to bringing forward the
motion to-night, but he must say that unless the Gallant
Member made out a case for postponement, he thought it
expedient to decline bringing it forward.
Mr. CAMPBELL said, that it had been distinctly un-
derstood that the motion would be opposed, and therefore
the party had had ample notice.
Mr. O'CONNELL observed, that on a former occasion
the matter had been postponed for the convenience of the
other party, when there was a motion before the House.
important
question, present there was no motion. It was an
question, for it was a question whether England was to
become like Ireland in respect to its magistracy.
Mr. A. BARING began by making some remarks
which excited much cheering in the House, but which it
was imposible to hear. He complained of the offensive
allusion made by the Hon. and Learned Member who had
just sat down to Ireland, which be perfectly understood.
What the Hon. and Learned Member proposed was the
grossest piece of injustice, and the impression on his mind
was, that there did exist in this affair a conspiracy to op-
press, and cruelly oppress, individuals.—(Hear, hear.)
The Gallant Officer was undoubtedly at liberty to
bring forward his motion whenever he pleased ; but
he (Mr. Baring) was thus at the mercy of any
individual who chose to bring charges of this de-
scription, and let them lay by. If the lion, and Gal-
lant Officer refused to submit a motion for an inquiry
to the House, he (Mr. Baring) would submit one, for there
was a notice in the paper, and the House would not be taken.
by surprise. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman might, if'
he pleased, bring forward his calumnies, night after night,
and become the tool of those who were parties to this dirty
conspiracy. He would bring the subject before the Ilouse,
and not be condemned, night after night, to answer the
calumnies trumped up against him.—(Hear.) Were Mr.
and Mrs. Deacle the only persons aggrieved in this case ?
Were the other party to be forgotten ? Let the Hon. and
Learned Member bring forward his charges, and net goon
in this way, dallying with the charges; let him, if he had
any feeling in his bosom, bring forward his charges man-
fully, and not create delay, in order to add to the excite-
merit which prevailed in the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that having been assailed, he
hoped the House would allow him to defend himself.—
Having been assailed by the Hon. Member in a inure brutal
manner than lie had ever been assailed in that House.—
(Loud cries of " Order," " chair.")
Sir ROBERT INGLIS requested the Speaker to state
whether it was conformable to the rules of the House, when
an Hon. Member had been assailed, for him to apply to his
attacker the expression " brutal?"
The SPEAKER rose, but
Mr. O'CONNELL said, he did not hesitate to recall the
expression. He did not mean to use it. , He undoubtedly
did feel dissatisfied at an attack which no man had ever less
deserved. As a Member of that House he had been called
upon by British subjects who complained of wrong. A
woman had been handcuffed. The other party had been
convicted by the verdict of a jury. But the persons thus
treated had been denied advocates, because they were not
persons of wealth and influence. But they had an advo-
cate now, and the people of England should have an inves-
tigation. " A conspiracy !" exclaimed the Hon. and
Learned Member, " what have I to do with your Eng-
lish conspiracies?"—(Cheers and laughter.) But he could
bear with the flash of indignation from the Hon. Member;
but in order to see if his anxiety to have an inquiry were
real, he suggested to the Hon. and Gallant Member to
bring forward his motion to-night. If the Committee were
granted, either the accused party would have a triumphant
acquittal, as he wished they might, or they would be con-
victed of gro.s oppression.
Colonel EVANS said, that under the circumstances, be
should bring forward his motion. The Hon. and Gallant
Member complained of the want of a fair return for the
moderation he hail employed on the former occasion, by
ihe warmth which had been displayed on the other side.
He did not recollect any expression which had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Kerry which justified the
observations which had been made upon him on the
charge of conspiracy, which had been made in so unwar-
rantable a manner. To be told that all those who had any
thing to ao with those petitions were raking about the
country, and were the tools of a dirty conspiracy, was
::n imputation, an insult, which he would not submit
to. Having been refused the papers he had asked for,
he could only detail the particulars of the case from
the public newspapers. The Honourable and Gallant
Officer then stated some details of the trial, and some
reported remarks of the Judge, and read a passage from
the letter of Mr. Bingham Baring, on which letter, he said,
lie should lay greatstress. When the debate took the turn
it did on the former occasion, it was not possible that Mr.
and Mrs. Deacle, out of regard to their own character,
could refrain from farther proceedings, because there had
been recrimination. There had been a conspiracy charged;
the witnesses were assumed to be perjured, and the Judge's
summina up false. Under these circumstances it became
a totally unprecedented transaction ; and as it had led to
imputations in that House which no tribunal in the country
could take cogniz once of, and as the privileges of the House
had been abused to the deteriorition of individual character,
there arose a strong necessity of giving to the case some
further inquiry. The Gallant Member then proceeded to
show that there was nothing unprecedented in the House
making the conduct of Magistrates the subject of inquiry,
the right of doing which was establishedin the Manches-
ter affair, and in the case of Judge Kenrick. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving for the appointment of a
Select Committee.
Mr. LEFEVRE thought that the public mind would
never he satisfied unless some impartial inquiry was insti-
tuted into the case. He acknowledged that it was per.
feetly illegal to put handcuffs upon any person unless they
were in resistance to the law, but lie was convinced tits.
no such orders had been given by either of the Mr.
Brings. The verdict of the Jury was tantamount to a
perfect acquittal of those gentlemen.
Lord ALTHORP, upon the best consideration he could
have of the case, was convinced that it was not his dm)
to give his vote for the appointineut of a Committee. lie
had rouse to this resolution without having had the slightest
communication with the Non. Member for Theaord, and
he stated this upon his word and honour as a gentleman
He had the honour of the acquaintance of the Member for
Toetford, and also of that of Mr. Bingham Baring, au
lie felt the greatest pin in doing anything which could
throw the slightest possible slur upon their characters, or
triton that of the Hon. Member for Portsmouth. He was
quite aware of the imputations which might be cast from
the course he was pursuing, but when he looked upon
whole of the case, and what the result of the proposed in-
quiry would be, as to affordhig any satisfaction to the
public, he could riot consistently with his duty consent to
instituting such an inquiry. Mr. and Mrs. Deacle had
had their option of proceeding against the Magistrates, by
indictment or action. They had brought an action far
damages, and the verdict was given in their favour. if
none of the parties had bten Members of that House,
would anybody have thought it reasonable that a Corn.
mittee of inquiry should have been appointed? If the
course now proposed were to be pursued, the examination
of such cases might be perpetually before the House, which
was not a tribunal to try such cases satisfactorily, arid he
hoped that seine other mode might be found by which the
truth of such cases might be elicited. lie had moved for
a Committee in the case of the Manchester Magistrates,
but that was as different from the present as two cases
oould possibly be. Upon a vices' uf the whole of the case,
he felt himself bound to oppose the motion.
Lord faBlliNuTON telt it his duty to oppose the mo-
tion from a sense of the great inconvenience which would
arise from such an inquiry, and which, from the forms of
the House, could not lead to any satisfactory result.
Mr. HUME had hoped that the Noble Lord (Althorp)
would have pointed out some mode by wltitth truth could
have been elicited and pub:ie. justice satisfied. He bad
read all the allegations upon both side!, and IT could say
that there were none which were not open to inquiry and
to proof. The public mind never could be ad:Ailed with-
out inquiry. He would not say if the allegations were
true or not, but the Noble Lord ought not to refuse in-
quiries unless he could point out some other mode of ob-
taining the ends of justice.
he ATTORNEY- GENERAL thought that the state
of the country when the transactions took place ought to
be duly considered, and lie diflered from the opinion of
the Judge who tried the case, that the magistrate
ougait to have left the execution of the warrant to
the constables, without themselves being present. The
had traversed the trial, and they
mute se
end" 'of
affidavits
tt 'I,
h de,n theanvsittisil
disturbances;
aelsetstro;ounktghley,
place.
He thought a Committee of
implicated Mr. and Mrs. Deade iu
the House ought not to complain of the conduct of the prosecutor's
Stns the
justicela t oi
nu
f sall c
ha case. i
tribunals calculatedhn be was
the t there
pro
as-
t e trial of Mr. Deacle. He was acquitted, and after his

acquittal Le brought his ail Con against tie Met srs. Baring
t;ir a trespass and assault. The Jury finding the asau c

and trespass proved, gave damages proportionate t e their
sense of the nature of the injury cotrnit-ed. What founda-
tion, then, was there for the House of Commons to erect
itself into a court of appeal upon this case ?—( Hear.) It was
said that both parties to that action wished for inquiry inea
the circumstances which gave rise to it. In his opi-
nion neither of them would gain by having such an in-
quiry instituted.—(Hear, hear.) It had ben likewise said
that there were precedents to justify the institution of it
but he was of opinion there was no resemblance between
the present case and the precedents which bad been quoted.
As to the Manchester case, the extent of the mischief done
to human life, the violence of the yeomanry, the breath-
less haste with which their proceedings were welcomed
with the approbation of the Government, and, above all,
the many constitutional questions which were involved
in it, made an inquiry by the House in his judgment ab-
solutely necessary. As to the case of Mr. Kenrick, which
he had himself brought forward, it ought to he recollected
that there were two grave causes of complaint against him
as a Magistrate. Now Mr. Kenrick was also a Welsh
Judge ; and two charges of misconduct which were
brought against hint as a Magistrate, appeared to him
(the Attorney-General) to disqualify him altogether front
acting any longer as a Judge. There was no mode of pro-
ceeding against him as a Judge except by an :Wrest; of
that and the other House of Parliament to the throne fur
his removal; and it was quite clear that the House could
not accede to such an address, without having some evi-
&Tice as to the misconduct upon which that address was
to be founded. The case of Mr. Kenrick therefore was
nut at all a case in point to this discussion. In conclusion he
stated that he must oppose the :notion, as no grounds had
been laid for taking this case out of the ordinary course of
justice, or for erecting the House of Commons into a court
of appeal upon it..—(Hear.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY was surprised at the course
adopted by his Majesty's Ministers on this occasion. He
wondered how they could consent to allow a ease of this
importance, affecting, as it did, the conduct awl character
of the Magistracy generally, to pass without notice and
without inquiry. It was impressed strongly on his mind,
those who were accused of misconduct in this case lied,
on the first mention of it to the House, invited Hon.
Members to suspend their judgment until they had taken
legal measures to challenge that verdict of which the effect
was to strengthen the imputation which the inquiry at the
trial raised against them. lie also recollected the stat.,
rrient made by an Hon. and L.-arned Gentleman, who had
been professionally engaged in these transactions, and who,
in commenting on the trial, had asserted that the defen-
dants were taken by surprise by the turn of that trial and
by the evidence produced against them. Lie had likewise
not forgotten the declaration of the Hon. Member for
Portsmouth, that they intended to move for a new trial as
soon as the Courts were re-opened in Westminster hall.
Now, however, it turned out that the defendants did not
intend to venture upon any further judicial proceeding-.
He did not find fault with them for adopting that resolu-
tion. No doubt they bad been ably and judiciously ad-
Ivised. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Hampshire,
that considering the opulence of Mr. B. Baring, the ver-
dict on the trial at Winchester was a mere nominal ver-
dict. He supposed, therefore, that his legal adviser had
told him either that that verdict would operate in his
favour as an acquittal with the public, or that he
was very lucky in gaining a verdict with such
small dainates, and in having it tried in Hampsh ire,
where his influence was so great, instead of having it tried
in some county where lie most have met the plaintiff on a
footing of greater equality. He would not conceal from
the House, that after all the statements which had been
made by the opposite party, it was his opinion that Mr.
and Mrs. Deacle, and all their witnesses, had been most
shamefully calumniated in that House.—( Hear.) But in
his opinion, Mr. and Mrs. Deacle had little to do with
the grave question which was then before the House.
That was evidently the opinion of his lion. and Gallant
Friend, fur he had submitted their case to the considera-
tion of the House long before he received any petition from
them. His Hon. and Gallant Friend, on reading the
newsparr report of the and the stringent remarks
made on it by the Press, determined to bring it before
the House on his own responsibility. It was not until
lion. Members had discharged the fire of their artillery
upon these individuals, who were unknown in that House,
and without any relations, friends, political associates to
defend them—(Hear, hear)—it was not until their dia-
meters had been whispered away, and their witnesses had
been traduced as guilty of perjury, and the jury which
gave them a nominal compensation had been charged with
partiality,—that Mr. and Mrs. Deacle telt themselves
called upon to make, in their petition, it. full disclosure
of the injury which they alleged that they hail suffered.
He was surprised to hear that it was a matter of trivial
importance that the Magistracy of England—hereafter to
be an irresponsible Magistracy, if such oppression as this
were to remain unnoticed—should possess the power of
placing irons on the wrists of nnoffending individuals, who
when brought up to trial were proved to be not guilty._
(Hear, hear.) He contended that by law the Magistracy
possessed no such power ; he contended that even where
parries were guilty, it was contrary to the law and Con-
stitution of England, both iu practice and in theory, to
subject them to this iron degradation, unless they presented
resistance to the authorities in whose custody they were.
—(Cheers.) It was against this that the people of Eng-
land raised their protest—it was against this assumption
of at bitrary rind irresponsible power that they bad in all
quarters of the island given expression to their inelign ttion.
Mr. BARING commenced his speech by observing
that he had no intention, on a framer evening, to impute
improper motives to the lion. Member for Ilidellestx for
the share which he had taken in these discussions ; and Le
regretted it exceedingly if he had made any such imputa-
tion against him. That he felt strongly on this matter,
lie did not mean to deny. He felt strongly for his ricer
relation, and the more so, because he knew that his near
elation owed much of the persecution which lie had re-
cently suff -red to the political part which he (Mr.
Baring) bad recently taken.—(Hear, hear, from the
Opposition.) He had learnt with regret that his Noble
Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchr quer, would not grant
,a Committee of inquiry into this subject ; but in justice
to his No -le Friend he must say, that until his Noble
Friend got up to make his statement he did not know what
the decision of his Noble Friend was upon it. Ile felt
question was not a mere personal (plea-
public question, in which alt the MA.
and on that account it was one
theti3O,atatr,ateiltiywv.pa,resersene nig:7ltica;ed,
which ought to be tharoughly sifted. He then pro-
d•. ded to stag how many prison. rs--(about 4,oo)—were
confined in Winchester gaol at the time tit this transac-
tion, in order that the Homee might consider the
slate of confusion ira which the county of Hants then Iris.
He did not oome forward at present as the accu er of
Mr. and Mrs. Deacle certainly not. He and his
f-
lends were the accused, net the accusers; and all
that he should now say, would be offered to the Hausa for
the purpose of proving that the statements of Mc. :red Mrs.
Dosele were not founded on facts, and that tiaere was a
prima facie case fur their apprehension. He denied that
Mr. Bingham Baring was actually present as hile the com-
plainant underwent the process ef handcuffing, and insis'ed
'hat his, Hon. Relative treated Mr. Deacle with the ut-
mogt delicacy and forhearance that the case of a lady so
situated would admit of. The Hon. Gentleman here went
through the dete,i's of the affair, as mentioned at it ngt tin
-a fanner debate, and added that Mr. Deacle hafi shaken
hands with Mr. B. Baring at the close of the proceedings,
to indicate that he bore that gentleman no animosity, and
felt no dissatisfaction at the manner in which be had
behaved towards him. He had also a right to observe
that there were many facts set forth iu the present petiti in
to which no allusion whatever had been made during the

Mr. O'CONNELL thought that as the parties involved
in the transaction had courted inquiry, the refusal to insti.
cute that inquiry would only tend to increase the sl inder—
hir slander he trusted it would prove to he. He was de-
decidedly in favour of inquiry, in order, if the allegafi,ns
were false, that an end might lie put to popular agitation.
Sir it. PEEL was sorry that a sense of duty obli,s•ed
iiirn to Oppose a ineasura which be believed the parties
themselves sincerely desired. He was opposed to it, be-
cause he was persuaded that those parties were entirely
innocent of the misconduct with which they trete charged,
He did not think that House the fittest tribunal for insti-
iuting a trial of the kind. if an appeal were to be made
to any tribunal, it should be to one of those where the truth
or falsehood of conflicting stateuients was established on
oath, lie discovered nothing in the present case more
than in many others of alleged misconduct of Magistrates,
,hit demanded or warranted extraordinary inierferenue,
lie believed those men to be innocent, and he did so with-
iut having the honour of their acquaintance further than
meeting them in that House. From his official experience,
lie could see much in the disturbed state of the country-
chat might countenance the adoption of
," measures of snore
than ordinary precaution. Placing himself in ti:etcohabreacate7.7
,if a grand juryman, and believing thesei
teor"taheir
ogether guiltless of the proceeding
ns '''of duty, acebcecie'to'
he could conslitetAly v.-ith a se.e
heir wishes for a new trial.
„,ely that it should go forth
;0 the country that that •
IiUNT r:gretted exrese
[louse was not prepared to do
tAaturotathe country believe that
justice to its petitionenr7o.4
d bCtivecn the Lard
there was a" "