The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-10 00:00:00

POOR LAWS.

Lord ASHBURTON presented a petition from a Union
of several Parishes in the county of Southampton, under the
Poor Laws Amendment Bill, relative to the expense of building
a workhouse for the Union. The Noble Lord entered at some
length into a detail of the benefits derived from the intro-
duction of that measure which he believed had been very ge-
neral throughout the country.
Viscount MELBOURNE felt much gratification at the
satisfaction which the Noble Lord had expressed at the
working of that measure.—( Hear, hear.) It was one
which had been carried without the slightest admix-
ture of party or political feeling, and it had been carried
into effect with the same spirit. It was unsullied by political
differences of any sort, and he trusted that it would be found
universally beneficial when its principle was brought into more
extended operation.
The petition was then laid on the table, and the House ad-
journed.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, FzBALIARY 9.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4 o'clock.
PRIVATE BILLS.

Mr. GISBORNE complained, that on calling at the
Private Bill-office, this morning, he was informed that no
Committee on a private Bill could sit till Friday, in conse-
quence of the lists of the Members not having been made out.
The consequence would be that no private Bill could be read a
first- time till that day, and many witnesses who were now in
town must wait, at great inconvenience, until that day. He
trusted, that as the lists were now in the Journal-office, these
Committees would be allowed to sit to-morrow, so that
the inconvenience might be remedied as far as possible.
The SPEAKER explained, but in so low a tone, that we
could not catch even the substance of what fell from him.
MR. BUCKINGHAM'S CLAIMS.

Mr. TULKE presented a petition from Mr. Buckingham,
M. P., for Sheffield, praying for leave to bring in a Bill to
give him compensation for the losses he incurred from the
injuries inflicted upon him in India.
Mr. HUTT presented a petition from Hull:praying for the
revision of the Timber Duties.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. HAL FORD presented a petition from the Leicester-
shire Society, complaining of agricultural distress. The Hon.
Member stated that the prayer of the petition had been in a
great measure anticipated by the appointment of the Com-
mittee on Agricultural Distress, and he should therefore move
that the petition should be referred to that Committee. The
Hon. Member also presented a petition from the licensed vic-
tuallers of Lutterworth, praying for the appointment of a com-
mittee to inquire into, and give them efficient relief, in conse-
quence of the increased duties on spirits.
RAILWAYS.
__Mr., .iIyAT ave notice that on Friday next he should
in:;Wirlfll"lifferf. of a Select Committee, to which
sh . ' regirfflt , iiztipplication for a Bill fora Railway
t *iiit-41t/au -seftwk`iles of the Royal_ Committee
Exchange, and
t etvidencesbould be giveqbefore that
Committee of the pro-
'"expense; whether a,prOper line had been chosen for the
s et y and accommodation-of the public, and how it would
e property. /
a. --\.. BEER BILL.
CaptaleilECLlELL presented a petition from the Inn-
keepers of irrigliton against the Beer Bill. He hoped
Ministers would repeal the Bill, which had been so injurious to
a most useful class of his Majesty's subjects. He knew of one

case where the effects of one individual were handed over to

the excise officer.

Mr. CURTEIS supported the prayer of the petition.
GLOUCESTER RAILWAY.
Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from certain
inhabitants of Gloucester praying for leave to bring in a Bill
to form a railroad from that city to Birmingham. The Noble
Lord supported the prayer of the petition, and moved that leave

should be given to bring- in the Bill.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY thought it would be better for the
Noble Lord to postpone his motion till to-morrow, in order

that it might be -decided to which list of Committee.s it should

be referred.

Mr. RICH A RDS could assure the House that a great
many of the clergy, gentry, and freeholders of the county of
Worcester objected to the proposed line of road. A meeting
had been held at Worcester, and at various other places, on
the subject, and the general impression was in favour of a dif-
ferent line. He should therefore (so we understood) object to
the proposition of the Noble Lord.

Lord' G. SOMERSET said that with regard to this parti-
cular rail-road, he believed that it actually belonged to the
constituency of the county of Worcester. He would have no
objection that the Members of all the counties through which
the proposed rail-road was to run, should be added to the list.
Sir R. INGLIS thought it very important that there should
be some general rule upon this subject, and that it should not
be left to the choice of any Member to refer such bills as the
present, to any committee he should think proper to select.
Mr. RICHARDS said that the fact of the case was this :
certain individuals at Gloucester, in conjunction with certain
other individuals at Birmingham, wished to form a rail-road,
and had got up a plan without consulting the inhabitants of
the county of Worcester. They were going on with it against
the opinion and interest of the county.
Lord G. SOMERSET interrupted the Hon. Gentleman.
That was not the proper period to enter into a full discussion
upon the subject.
After a few words from Sir J. WROTTESLEY, which were
inaudible in the gallery, strangers were ordered to withdraw,
but the motion for adjournment till to-morrow was agreed to
without a division.
CONFERENCE WITH THE LORDS.

Mr. HU NIE reported to the House that the Lords had
agreed to a conference, on the subject of the printing of Par-
liamentary papers ; and that they desired the attendance of
the Deputation from the Commons to meet their Lordships in
Committee-room No. 5.
The Members of the conference then left the House, and
after a short absence returned, when
Mr. HUME reported that the conference had taken place,
and that they had left the resolutions of that House and the

Report of the Select Committee with their Lordships.
On the motion of Mr. F. MAUL E the Turnpike Bill was
read a first time, and appointed to be read a second time on
Friday week.
The Marquis of CHANDOS moved the addition of Sir
C. Burrell and other names to the Agricultural Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the appointment of a Select
Committee to superintend the printing of Parliamentary papers.
Mr. HUME expressed his approbation of the course pur-
sued by the Noble Lord, and said that it would effect a con-
siderable reduction in the expense of printing.
COMMUTATION OF TITHES FOR ENGLAND AND
WALES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, on being called on by the
Speaker, rose and addressed the House as follows :—I rise,
Sir, with great anxiety, for the purpose of moving for leave
to bring in a Bill for the commutation of tithes in England
and Wales : the first source of that anxiety is the very great
difficulty of the question—a difficulty which I have shown
that I do not underrate, because it was my opinion when
the present Administration was formed, it would not be possible

for us to frame a measure comprehending the various provisions
necessary upon this important subject, unless the whole question
was previously referred to a Select Committee. The Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) stated at that time an
opinion apposite to my own, fur he stated, that whatever might
be the plan which the Government might think the best
to propose, it would he far better, and indeed he thought
it the duty of the Government to frame such plan and
proposal to the House, and not leave a question of such mag-
nitude open to the consideration and decision of a Committee,
without any plan before it. Sir, upon reflection and com-
munication with my colleagues, it did appear to us that un-
doubtedly the country had a right to expect that we should
propose some plan on the subject. Another source of great
anxiety to me iii proposing such a plan, is the very great im-
portance which the settlement of this question must be
to the whole agricultural interest, and likewise to the
permanent interest of the country. Another source of doubt
and anxiety is the knowledge that various plans have been
proposed to Parliament in the course of a very few months,
and although none of those plans can be said absolutely to
have failed, yet, from one reason or other—from the urgency
of other questions, or the state of the time when the question
was brought on, or from dissatisfaction expressed from different
parts of the country, none of the plans have been proceeded wit h,
or thoroughly discussed in Parliament. Two Bills on this
subject were proposed by the Archbishop of Canterbury in
the House of Lords, which never came to a discussion in this
House ; there were also two Bills prepared by Lord Althorp
when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and another Bill
which was opened by the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite in the course of last year, but they were never pro-
ceeded with. Therefore it is, Sir, that I experience
great difficulty in the course which I am about to adopt.
But whatever may have been the result of these Bills, and
whatever may have been the reasons for our hesitation about
them, I do feel that this is a question on which at the pre-
sent time it is very incumbent on Parliament to come to a
decision.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I ground my
opinion not merely upon the abstract objections to tith,
because these objections have been already made by men of in-
vestigation, and pointed out long ago. The same objections exist
at the present time, as their tithes are still felt to be a penalty
upon capital and industry, and arc still the greatest punishment
upon those who lay out the greatest capital, and employ the
most labour.—( Hear, hear.) Tithe is now, as it was then, a
manner of paying that involves very great evils—( Hear, hear)
—it forces upon the clergy forbearance at the expense of what
they properly feel to be their rights, or compels them to enforce
those rights at the expense of that influence which it is to im-
portant that they should possess. But these are not the
objections which influence me, because as I have stated,
these were as well known half a century ago as they are now
—these are not the objections which make it so incumbent
upon Parliament at the present time to come to a deci-
sion.—( Hear, hear.) The reasons for this necessity will,
I think, be found in the griswing discontent among the agri-
cultural interest, and the tithe payers at this mode of payment
and the general disposition which I believe to be an universal
disposition on the part of the clergy, as I can see by their
communications to the Crown, that nothing would give them
more pleasure than to get rid of this objectionable mode of
payment.—( Hear, hear.) At present, not only in this coun-
try, but in the rest of Europe, are the objections to tithes felt
so strongly, that men become more and more unwilling to pay
what is legally due, and more and more anxious to see this pay-
ment altogether cease.—( Hear.) There cannot be a stronger
instance than that of Austria—a most tranquil country._
where there is no press, stamped or unstamped ; where there
are no representatives • and where there are no popular meet-
ings. lam told that the feelings against tithe arc so strong
that the farmers of Austria have been heard to wish that there
should be no commutation at present, in the hope, by what the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin called " Peaceful agi-
tation," they might get rid of tithe altogether. If such be the
case in that country where there is so little of political excite-
ment, it is certainly our duty in this country, where there are
every day meetings of persons interested in the subject to en-
deavour to come to a settlement, before we find one side or
the other making demands so unreasonable that it will be im-
possible for Parliament at once to do justice and give satisfac-
tion.—( Loud cheers.) Having made these preliminary re-
marks, I will state what I think arc the principles upon
which a settlement of this question might and may be made.
There are two things to be borne in mind—the one is the
principle upon which we propose the settlement of this ques-
tion ; the other the machinery by which it is intended to-carry
it into effect. For, although we may adopt the very best
possible principle, yet if our machinery be imperfect, we
cannot hope for a beneficial result. So also, if our prin-
ciple be not a sound one, the most perfect machinery
will not have the effect of giving satisfaction to
the country. The machinery we propose is, I believe, the same
as that of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite in his measure
of last year, namely—that there should be established a central
Board of ommissioners, consisting of three persons, for the
purpose of arranging the question of commutation. It is in-
tended that two of the Commissioners should be appointed
by the Crown, the third by the Archbishop of Canterbury ;
and we propose the appointment of Assistant Commissioners
to a certain extent, and in certain cases, as in the Poor Law
Commission. I now enter upon another part of the subject,
namely, the principle upon which we propose the settlement
of this question. And it seems obvious that the prin-
ciple should be to take the certain amount of the annual
value of tithes, and have it commuted for an equivalent
fixed and determined, in some other species of pro-
perty less objectionable in its manner of payment. But al-
though the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed fair in
this respect, I own there are places where it would be difficult
to carry it into effect. In many parts of the country the com-
position is high ; in others it is exceedingly low. In the latter
those who pay the tithes object to any increase ; they say that
in place of an increase they expect a diminution, and that if in-
creased they would turn their land into pasturage. I fear if
this plan were adopted it would be productive of great
dissatisfaction, and we should not be able to carry our Bill
successfully through Parliament, thereby increasing still more
the dislike entertained against the tithe-owners.—( Hear,
hear.) Another plan proposed is that of Lord Althorp—to take
the general average payment for the last seven years.; but:that
would have this effect, that those who hare been most severe in
the exaction of their tithes, would get the amount hither-
to received by them, and those who have been indulgent
would get no augmentation.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Sir, in order to carry that into effect, it has been said by those
who have paid great attention to the subject, that there should
be an average taken for seven years ; and then a general
average taken for the whole country. But this plan, if carried
into effect, would change the nature of the property of every
tithe-owner in the land, though at a future period that ar-
rangement might be a very proper one.—(Hear, hear.) I
confess, Sir, that at present there is no overwhelming ne-
cessity for the arrangement, which must be the only case
that would allow of such an interference. I come, then, Sir,
to another principle which has been promulgated—l mean the
principle of Lord Althorp's second Tithe Bill, which was to
take a certain average of all the tithes paid, and then to take
those amounts and make them bear some proportion to the
rent ; and not as heretofore, to make it dependant upon and
relative to the produce. I confess, Sir, I was one of those
who were taken with the notion of taking tithes in conjunction