The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-02 00:00:00

wa, was in a situation whit
the stigmas which he had
by to discharge its dut
had stigmatized botht roP
o
language which he 1110 nev,
r, either in or out of Pi
the House much inteapt)
Noble Lord had said thrrat 1
by the demands of the pro
ve
of that House would er I
rence to the number of dentulf
I
it the House would never s
ith its deliberative charscte
people did demand Refortu.-
ectly well aware that at forco
fir
had been used, although n'
t yet with great authority,
to reform itself, for thee/P

eat „..
.r it,_
country
hat Was it that had first induced the Sovereigns
Z., %nary to call a Parliament together ? It was be-
ese ti:_leY wanted men and moneyto carry on their wars;
14
o:zir aPPeal. had bsen made to the liberi homi.aes.
4,
crnmt
.t.hing that took place was ' the calling on the
eke
e._?nities" to assist at these Parliaments ; but in this
tie, ,'co community' bail lint one vote, so that even if
stia.lembers were returned they hail but one vote between
eght „.At that time the county of Cornwall had but
stets
_-‘ternbers. He presumed, that if it could be shown
`her
laces were called on to return Alembers which were
parishes nor market towns, it would be admitted
there thou: places could not be very considerable. Now
44 i were Ilaslemere, West Lone, and others, which
'evu• been the n othey had
tiled
0_ one or other, and yet been
tlii, he tto 'tend repentatives to Parliament. After
tau 0 01(1 not see writeho could be contended that popula-
repa: tarition was the basis on which the principle of
towesenitiation had been grounded, for not only small
erg': t had been called on to send representatives, but
, 4tost i°W" had been left unrepresented ; and this was a
elm
thll:peitant pnint, in answer to those who pretended
i odd Well "1Y
asked for ]statemento of the Coustitution.
led—lf the Noble Ler" tn.teele tioe 4 remembered the in that House of an
n tot, . e ~:k° and Learned Gentleman (now Lord Brougham) who
mle was not to end ' L. toe , , se
to "std that bra object was nut revolution, but restore-
he correction ; but as in be tlti
,'
!°4: tliat Noble Lord had said that be was an enemy to
was probably understoouseeno elf soloaar
.
t sli, titee • Y and untried experiments—to rash and untried
leard it—(Hear)--i
le ° , II". H •
it,the peoP a les„ , He
,(Sir R. Inglis) called op. that Noble and
id not grant
it own hands —(Huai' eiry,e agent, 0; 1
ry many periods in the loilitee being
at
ras,charge which he had brought against it, of
n and untried *peculation, utterly destructive of
iu to state, when be s'llearo, etssy
et
ins had been made ter are lqii- e our_ that had hitherto existed. He called on the
ei Lie:lents: anY
not be so vehement or so : our lee dope d. to show what trace of what he had that night
lee testa
that
in the former precedents of England. Let him
: at all events they Weree
town or borough had been called into Par-
clamations then which t.V.,
n, that they now came h`fieleroill" !Itr excl.. , Y.efaistenee because it smallgo aell populous,
min it, because it was. Tire kiOle Lord
:hority of the Ministry. P. _AO bee tte7,ltc,l
th any reference to yeti ,eio tbl L:d'iar,,,lnake much of the instance of Old Sarum ; and
Ithe h. os been the great stumbling-block with those
panne in Burke Which pre;
to tbeoeeer:
.the oaf! iiresue.sl the some line of argument. In one and
apply almost exaedY
a was from a work of hi' ee; lioied7 Year—the 2,3 d of redteeaett I. —a wait had been
e of the present Disco the pre: toe L t,(? both Old and New Sarum, and ;et neither
toe
0" 't been conferred on account of pooulae
ordinarily applicable t° :,. to tlic
when he should read 11,` t tt, that it' , taaatien. On the contrery, he believed
would venture to sa3r, t ;le kblige
t, °ad been gi,yees itt the first instance to
:Oat be outlived, just as „wt. the laer,e gar). Of Salisbury, by peeing Iris friends iu
Oat . se. Aiel in an account of the heronell'it was staied
so strongly in Mr. Butheot%,llo4
~_ a had i - ..
~ a . .
ran thus—" There la a° ithe' -sor of thlately been purchased by Mr. Pitt, tbe pose
oto the.
~,,,a. 5 celebrated -diamond of that name, who had
the present conjuncture'
tof power who holds toloee el tell'eht mod an hereditary seat in the House of Commons,
as the Earl of Arundel possessed one in the House
iything above or below, ab!aest' 4 Peen,
itire ; but that disconnect! ton, hate, wll beieg the riw:oe- of Arundel Castle. How,
irties, in families, in Parleel' 010:e "itto be said that, according to til,e Ppostit2tion
admitted ens
4opfar is):01:09
,t 1,,,
_Ol !heir • "ntsy, Noblemen were not ee he
represented' and
eto4l.4lll4teftrfests regarded in that lionit;e ? Vie cause i;f* the
arvedrs!hlley
many boroughs was, lie delieved, obscure ; but,
e more extraordinary, bested l' 34 th
itsej tai e other listed some were as clear and as well ascer-
rmerly divided and ag ..als ese _ . •• ,
ie in a manner entirely dine pen tete Ar possible. p,„ kutosee that two writs to re-
y has visited the natiorl!in 01 11 en'e'eulbers had peen issued by Elizabeth, at the desire
to not labour at present teti, ' lieteport°l her fevourites, Sit. Chriatopher Hatton ; and
er oppresstve in • • the. Once& t° pl ,in the Isle of witot. had received its franchise
so rOf 'a" Sir ., •'• ' ' ' • • , r
ewe engaged in 12.6, perfer„ the , G. Tha no Carets. ~ s as toe hiseoey of tetan7
misfortunes might easily, ,P, •°°elie.. uitiall boroughs ; and, in 'fact, all the Cornish bp •
was the statement W°l" a oat Pirate It d Exclusively been formed in that manner.
make; but all this seelo,ofli rizht "9 Jeoenieh boroughs had at one time received the
e vigour and the firrnoeseoll .Villages
representation, some of whipi: were only small
_ea, . 0.. and none of' them entitle! to rink .. oafa r
this
pings had been remov „else ei,.. te , , . .as cn..l e a
ititution of the country Pool te talk
_te towns of Englatid. ;t was in sae er
be statement of another au
toe" tleasa tZtetilhe poeitte of representation in former times. He
! year 1782, the people leraitt" ''Pretset • oble Lord to paine one eny peeiod when the
it was in vain to think 9'
•bet' h,reforanen was better than it was at present. ' lie
is hardly an hour to spss';,,, 'the !„.."aid, that what was proposed was not restoiatiVe.
'en hg seed " That the pe°llo9. ' ion he `e end the countin, might judge what it was;
expectations, lend that she ioft ti„0.„....., tild state in one word, Out it was " Revelu-
icy were no lower able teresr ford'i a((aLouil Cheees.)---A RefOrm like that of the :e.ioble
t that they would not 1101,
ti's to
title?, 0.. n"thing but Revolution—(Cheering)—a Revo-
glise was ready to admit t"stoo Perty.lZit y.rfmci overturn all the natural influence of pi is-
existiog among the peoPP'este, ti•"at eel 4 tz7,114.-7( Hear. )—Another oljection to this
se Noble Lord. The ereejP, '‘thleh ..,, was, that it would derange ell that syetem by
the example of France ;,J,
,Pet,, 0,14,,! Constitution of this country had'hecome the
lalto be found in the th.i.: 'ilia leirit, L. %dant], and the admiration of the -world. Under
1 which had followed the'safe tiale, i,z),;alice,3 which 110 W existed, there bad been at
rear,) When there w3' bathsii e tee ofutihilet together (enclee Op influence of the Crown
in other ,countries, i .!pore ,_in aristiicrp.4) a body of Ten who hatrilieplayed
dieease, and, as such, 10ie set,, :o°4 esty, more virtue, thine public spirit, more •ta-
ft through the air, or '1)! ii,
o
ill ever alrez.ere reel for the service of their country, than
I not know ; but this et
rod :1 au er
other
their appearance te;thio eV °thee malls, or I
3 popular tumults were Prod trO test be '.r eeep.try.-...( liter, hear.)-L--He had' alreadY
same remarkable effect ~95 tiro. thO opinion of Mn. pallet!), and he ought at
Condorcet there was a grin *lliti, t,!_;9 have Ilserved, tba't many of the towns to
red to PailiantentarY Ref else thine were
Noble 1..;,,vd propoeeil to titre the elective frau-
at• eseece lat sr ere considerabieplaces at the ethyl when the right
obseeved, brat ‘7 •- • 600 kissl'ep,,e,_ • s-
'Awe, 4 hollow ferruelitti' difiii eeti "'anon was given to other places, and yet'
they
, and had more than olle, 40.,totterl
,-.= Halifax, three Inindred years ago, was
solar societies had iieni;',oo4 kat have a population of B,4pp ; Wakefield was a
i.l the necessity of P3ri'4o),e .
t 5.,.,
u,..0
lconsiderable town at the • same 'dine ; and Maticlies-
lked of as that of callio4b, I , 'itstticeurd„ ng to tradieiou, had eot less than 5,400 inhi-
been in France it, t
aope tt iail ;I:. two hundred years be'ore the year 1680 ; and;
ewn ,that numbers had c'e f . 11,,844,44 ems, it was t.,t'tairi th.itt at that hate:- period it
of England, who et l'ieti° bli'ne(l. .ul.e amount of population -he had `just men-
Tation as would irreei4o4, i feseughliii t, iti answer to this, was it to be said that no
ming of the coming Poo of are, it ',der' been created after that time, and that, there-
of such a Reform as on, arl itl4l'!e pla -cat h.eOn peseihle to do justice to sttch consi-
from thence the fort°6ofliti) ilt• aloe a," ? 'Jost the rev( eSe of this was' the fact;
edious, because the ea.& toe 41443,, with respect to
~! date to which he bid referred 4
a England." The conset, 0. p,,,,,,,,1Q_.ttY-one boroughs had been summoned to scud
roposedlet it be called", fr blest to ei.uves to Parliament; and after the date with re-
be that the whole of
.0,601 (1:t teCej d'"Chq'ter, f"urteen boroughs had in like man-
hinds of the people- Pent* ei'ltior, 01; write- 'Tr
—e 'did not intol4l to enter iptp the
the facts of the Noble e tif ,
0e• r,, to 1 whether it would be advantageous to large
!e. They were sent therbrit'',.' le'llesa hr4eceive the elective francliiie, though he must
lay by day according taret let 1 4by e t 4 did not know how much Manchester had
1' stet 4 hay' ' '
terate judgments, for , ,+ t 4 tea ee t 'IV, every fate or sin year!, supli e;eption
el
of the State.—(lie°';)e 01,1 e tat lee. hat which had lately taken place af4iverliool
between this case and t'lo-,0 i '
1:4164,14 the advantage thus to be derived .was very
,her of petitions ever kle tte k' ~
Ztiht tl."' il whio of the two--Alanchester or Liver-
s House—he meant o, 0 ro ,et. „ le most proseeroas 4 Lid net know; but
that instaoce, as he 'reati'l lily ; the, 101
sevents, enjoyed a high degree of prove-
e prayed for the consereot, of ,other other on was prosperous with two repreeentatiyes—
s4 fl t' witho
ssed ; in this instance', eta at fi, oe ,0_ • ut any ; and he had never beard th,t any
range ; tied he never "(3t o* wire
the mmercial intereete of the latter bad Buffered
a good a judgment aheu. r,
1111 HtEe ape ".•ant of having advneites in that House; who
he actually liad.--(l',e:eeY',' qf l'ild "
4:
)tied willing to maintain its rights.--(Hear.)—
insistency in him to lik' '-,,,,„ie,,/ it t)is Noill,Ther objection to that pert of the proposition
in the prayer of the mire' ell etPteseet.,ti e Lord, in which he would have taxa'ion and
d that it was the de et) r pihlll,d of the go band ia hat.td ; 4mt which pot triin in
demand. He was ei.ir2t, eft, ,n eh
was title of a pamphlet which he had reen,• and
Se numbers entitled t° leeirP, I,e, tatione, eca,elled, " Taxation, Tyranny without Repre-
no advantage to the c°
1:t 0p,,, I jeizki,,,, „,,,,,,,,. objection was, that he did not see how this
trite remark, be might
De 'llit le "4'4 tho 4be ado led ; for in the event of a contested
ible for great tyranny toefery
tjuParessiitatio'`e who voted in the minority would haye no
,e. He contended, thert e C'' thin tii ,be ?li at all. Without makine any per-oval allu-
int ' gel at ti Might r- 11 1 ' e Nb L d
qf voters througo°- Noe , o 111,0 lest wer tea to tae memory o. the i o
.le or
either to the fret!, o'ered.,;
tote'3 4 eisti 'e individuals who came into that House only
sof that House. lije,io',hri, citlad 0g ''',.°te• In such caeca, the minority was all
ular spot that they r°t'e toot IP. tv,Prrexerltatiun tile majority, and yet they were to have no
t the King's writ sent bsi. s# eteitth anythi• If tse principle of the Noble Lord was
nilil see that the nue'eresittrl, the 4'il,oritng' it was worth this—that rin person of
as for the smallest tlytes r°,eit kllarlaw,
ti }' would be bound to pay the taxes, or obey
[insider the affairs of 'l°o'll, 'lilt 'l4 their were enacted, as laid representative had no
lurch. This was the qivadeot ff by tiabie .
_tln. formation. Speh `a principle was wholly
led of them, and thi'e' ill'ii ~,'„kl. et, a n'.._4
authority
he contended that such an assertion, made
ler place which they repoo ',o; ter, it, ;,, in that House, was calcolated to do
, ter el, 4,4 uilbelzief
irgunnent might hat' ter as ~, net,i, the , ,as tending against good order, and to
that the Member for ar epree4,c; (NI ttiot oP„e°ple disobedient. The great benefit of the
ry borough which he
1:00-fi,,' :, t,?..,utio, if
~ the House of Commons as it now existed
the Act by which astileflt I u ter hi eeasett, e '`'able Lord's plan was adopted that benefit
las eligible, there 'o'4 dieec,(:. shaaterelt?.' was that it admitted all classes, represented
n to the local intereso,:o r :}ii
tl, totinete tool:. and admitted all talents. If tile proposed
When a AierohOr s. i, co ti j th "tied , Place, the Members would he 'almost entirely
0 P 0 Rin LU Otle •
I to be responsible to
.11 bee
o,fi,,
44e t ele one , into, est, and no talent be admitted but
end of the period whit. tli ~ p,,4e represents 61 mob oratory. The effect Would be to con-
:he again cline betbreoto di ,he aliN
the
'and:ion to thtoe Members who were called
• table t° ed 'tie th ile p that alone would be sufficient to destroy
r was ateoun al ell °te reaent
other theorists °y boo ell
ir tot teitre. advantages that the House afforded to
s own bands ; like teetioV°i, elliqteeh!,..7_
t. Alai' of those who sat for close and rotten
t theory of the Cortlef tl''.esoe olati ti the hey Ilan been that night designated, for the
iy part of the practiced 'l, ro. th,
~0f thYsa tUeniber of the Government-o(Cheere)
e)—ln the coite,i so rt. ,4. the ncAise, 't e who load constituted the chief ornaments of
, wETre there were t 7 el'e dity:o44try:wricloullad been in former times the support of
imposition as thaLa-gla° 'of IV Neie"ever eatld, if this plan had been adopted in their
favour ; but it' -i',.,,,i0° t, d
k I.r ,4k the 70 been received into that House. He
its of a long anCTlfferet'd Poi the e ohath_na ble Lord by what other means the great
e case was very i esist ee e cjilgtht bora had come into Parliament ? By the bye,
bad 001 Y. sr , Ps Sa °ugh fur which to
er documents M.
~,1 ~et , k halm ,t,eic. ~ _ .t. at great man had sat was
Id these were deo l'i t'es
ryao 1 Nile 31r. Pitt hid sat for Appleby. Mr.
Id derive inform:
ta th,t, Oeip 04JOpuioua '.tl fora close borough, and when rejected
it duty. lee k et.se!ele 1),,, tte:e°, Air. P,l:ce, he again took refuge in a close bo-
)elolme and, Alan matte;, , ;0 1)04 he that I:eke had first sat for NVendover ; and
ei talk of repreloatg', die 0
,l'at '4 his „I ea", he became known, he was trans-
-0 W ''• fine °EY to B •
of population or,. aey
,9' JO 0 , be,.. , w,n,l Bristol, as Mr. Canning, who also
r such a principled nor LlPtooi t ) tptitlqurtheir talent over, wag transposed to Liverpool.—
itution. He c°°, beetle, tlo_es Weet,s ed r„„rs, 3 once became known, they were the
' 1 tion ha' 01 01", e serge ever r ,i.tatives of lar y popn a a a Sii ta 0 ,naVe a ]urge towns; but would such
The Noble Lor oor 1) n) -t LordChatham, of selecting Mr. Canning, Mr.
•le of GO° es r 0
I).nrt • •
n the -vino!)
_..4
nj kai hve4 unity
ofl if they had not previously had
on Old Sarno r.,40, t6llPe°, 'th )
t-ase .• It s lowing their talents in the House ?
mid call on blanch 74 badO ve, qw_, sr, „„
()was orde hy
e this means that yeung men,
oet aou!'. tiop a , 44 , eoz
err, Ito enter • I •h l iwever, In e, eh, _es,, r „ ,
~
ee_ ,
~ or resii.ence wit- large
f our history' P°4oegiP , 'hst
tel
' were " r nope to r that House, unless, in-
:ion on which u_iialiolt;oleggo P 11104414 of
rob ursed—he called it cursed—with
esentatives to Pe,'_'',,le by,,ej It
psi Niot, of i,fla . °ratory, which was need for the
had been P' WO' reOe 0 41 3 off
naing the lowest and most db•it it :, they ,of ro thou! stated, the people, e asing
]lam, that s' *as sloe :40 bi
tt,ti , that O—(llear, hear.) Air. Burke
a a place that wof po P-opits:100 ,j,tnti, e repte,tos", was essential that all interests
it was e place
_, tie, e° e .tt , Nl_ Chet ,_ Lea. The Noble Lord, indeed, had
„etation °' • the/ oid ',Nei° tet''''Yela, bankers andmerchants would
repre ,
_Lod
if _
tto in: he he 7
tht, hosveve rthis en
eXplete h_ . 5 not, however, taken the
;old gad o'l ow it was to be done, But this he

L rose to explain. Hie
!tiaout qualifying it.
'eyed/ the just demands of

(Sir R. Inglis) would say, that as law, corn' tierce, and
finance, were subjects much discussed in that House, it
vu highly necessary that there shoultl be persons con-
nected with those matters from which the House might
derive information. But, at all evente, the other interests
of the country seemed to be entirely passed over. How
were those who spoke of the interests of the distant colo-
nies of England to obtain seats ? Let it not be said, that
in arguing thus he was arguing in favour of a system of
corruption. He never would admit that it was corrupt.
If any one could satisfy him that it was a corrupt system,
he would be one of the first to Say, that if it involved any
breach of faith or duty, the practical advantages could not
be such as to justify its continuance. But what he meant
to contend was, that under this system our Constitution
was formed ; and under this alone could it be main-
tained. With the exception of the Hon. Member fur
Waterford, the lion. Member for Kilkenny. the Hon.
Member for Cornwall (as we understood the Hon. Baro-
net), and the Hon. Member for Stafford-hire, there were
very few Members who took an active part in the pro-
ceedings of that House, who had nut entered it as Mr,
Pitt, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Burke had done; and he there-
fore contended, that unless such opportunity was still
&Ceded, it would tend to deteriorate the talent end
ability poeseatted by the House. finless lie was
told something more than could be collected
from the vague declamation heo had herd that night, he
should continue to believe, that at the present roonieot that
House was more independent cf the Crown and of the
Arietecracy than at any former period. He could eeeily
show that roe licuap wee not, in one respect, what it had
been forteerlt, het that Marie mare egit'ottt the argument
of the Noble Lord than for it. He couhrehow*how moeli
.
more dependent it was at all three upon the Crown and
upon the Aristoeracy than at present. Would it be said
thati;oteee., an e
seas d the influnce and
that the depeodenee of
Authority exercised over it, greater at that time thee
in the reign of James IL ? Would the House in at pr'e-
sent state, bear to he treated as it had been treated in the
reign of Henry VIII ? Traciuv the history of Parlia-
ment and the country down toile fittest years.—there wee
no period of our history when the influence of the CroWn
Fax so slight as at the tires, nt moment. What was the
state of things io ti e. time her queen's Majesty directed
the Sheriffs to return to Parliimeut such men only as
were of a particular faith in matters of religiOn, and or
known compliance in matters of politics ? And, inthe
reign pf Edward VI., the Sheriffs were directed to ee'ect
Only sueliPenftbere Filled been peeviously recant sent ed by
the Privy Council. If they were to refer to the Olden tithe
for specimens of the independence of that Hotite,'it would
not be to the period of the reign of Henry IV., nor to the
time of Richard 11., when a Member of Parliament was
threatened to be eeeeeted, for meetly making a motion on
the'bio List. Stich summary Vengeance was, indeed, rare
in modern eimeS.—(lhre the noise which prevailed gene-
rally throughout the speech of 'the Hon. Baronet, rose to
such a height, that he was for some motnents ineedih'e
Wlien tweed, he was repeating his former assertion, iliac
at no tine 'heel the House of Commons been So inde-
pendent Of the CrOwn and of the Aristocracy as at the
present day. Time Wee, when the Duchess of IVorforx de-
terenieed not only who ahoula sit fin' the count), of Nor:
folk, 'but who should reirescnt Meldon in ParliaMent ;
when Lord Essex could return his kinsman for the county
of Stafford, and his servant for the borough of Tamwoetio
In neither case was there that freedoni item influence and
that perfect' repeesentation whiCh the reform:leis always
assumed to belting to past times. The Hon. Baronet then
proceeded to dwell upon the facility (as we understood
hitn) with whieir the repeei of taxes had of late veers
i;een conceded to senseleis 'ciambur.' 'He hoped that no
feelings of tinilditi would so far influence the votes of that
House as to put the just rights of the Crown to 11a7ardl
GC. entiaoger toe priocipies of that teonstieutlon tinder
*Melt the cotintrn had so long flourished, and "foam the
loss of which it would inevitably decay. Unless the Hou-e
was prepared to restore that negative of the Crown, whieli
though diSeusectl sines the Revolution, had never been
totally 4; stmyed—unfe.s they were prepared to restore that
negative, they could never presunie to go any length in al-
t, ring the state of the representation. He begged of them to
recollect what had been the amount of the secret service
money antecedently losthe period of the Revolution and it
was well known that secret service money bad always been
used for the purpose of procuring majorities in that House
to promote theoviews of the Crown and the Ada:lei:ore-
t.ien.fin ttie time being. The amount of the secret service
Money at :the time to which he 'referred was po,boin. a
year, being one-twentieth of the whole income of the
country at the period in oueetiop, At the presertt day tjae
secret servile money did Time'amounf to titre seven-hub-.
dredth part of the income of the nation, and no man now
believed that anything like direct pecuniary bribery was
practised upon the Ilternbo-9 of that of had' been
for the last'forty or fifty yeate. He &lieveil that no man
in. the 'country believed hitt that'any indncement in the
nature of pecuniary bribe to any Member to give hisrvute
in a particular manner unen any coestioa would be re-
jected with ciisdah.t.—(Hear, hear.) He was assured that
no direct pecuniary bribe was usually offered in these times;
and he entertained no doubt, that if such bribes were of-
fered, they would be utterly unavailing to inauce Nembera,
nt that House to give their votes nae way or the other.
He knew' that in the time of Mr. Pitt loans were given—.
that is, shares in loans were given to such Members of
that House as were in the habit of supporting his Alaje,ty'm
Government. Those loans were made in secret, and tic
abates were dietaiborod amongst the government Mem-
bers.; but since that time 'he *as perstmeied that nothing
in the nature of pecuniary bribery was to be heard of in
connection with the Members of that House. Even the
porrepiee by plaees had in a great degree ceased to exist ;
and 'front the diminatioo of placemee within the walls
of that House, the lit;use had lost much of the legiti-
mate influence which it ought to possess, but it was
a 1 the while gaining power of another de.criptien
and in a different manner; and whatever pewee. the
Crown was*ing'the House gained. The time had new
art ivied when Members were heard to eay--ehe hoped they
Would never beenahled to say ap upon grounds_'
that it was now idle to talk of 'the Arnbaseaders being the
servants of the Crown. He really was in no slight de-
gree surprised when it was said that the Ambassadors to
Foreign States were not to be considered as the servants pt
the Crown. Wae not the Peewee att essential anti inherent
Part of the Constitution And. it it possessed 'the poWer
of making peace or war=-of maintaining amicable or hos-
tile relations with other Poweri, surely, then, the Am-
balesatlors it tsent forth were to be considered its servants.
If Ambassadors it sent forth were to lee considered the
servants of the Crown, the Army and Netter, by the same
rule, might be called the servants of the State, and that
would lead at once to ;melting short of republicanism. In
further proof of there being not t ny necessity for Main,
but of its being unjust and inexpedient, he would observe,
that at no period of the history of this country had there
been so little party spirit itethe business of the Legislature
as at the present day ; and •,:hat he confeapd he loCked
ueont as one 'of the inisfortnees of the times that thece
was no party in the present day--the misfortune of the
time was, that there were no two great leading men to di-
vide in nearly equal portions the House and the country,
and to take the lead of each divison, under whose banners
public men might range themselves ; but though that was
not the case, and though it was to be regretted that it,
should be so, yet it was at least available for one
pose—that of affording an nygunlc.nt againet Referm, as
showing the intlependehee of lodividuar MenherS of Par-
liament. It was almost ludiciOus to notice so often the
frequent references to old times, seeing that they made
So much against the interest ef the Reformers in the
time of Elizabeth ; so far from the House possessing
a greater degree of influence than at present, that Queen
told them in direct terms that they were not to interfere,
with matters concerning her prerogative rtywl. she et
peeseed her admiration.eetnot 14 the etriegistia sense of the
word—that they should have presumed to interfere with
the exercise of her ererogative ; and such was their ser-
vility and subservience at that period, that they went se-
riously about taking into consideration whether or not
they would ask permission to treat about such small mat-
ters as sheep, and wool, and melt ; but it .iy4g the opiniott
of the ,:7ouse that they Were 'Joe weak to treat of. such
•natters'iss peace and war. Every day the people were
becoming more and, more intelligent, and further and
greater was the sympathy between the people ani their
representatives. One great source of the increasing in-
fluence of the people was the increasedanmeot of petie
tions nreseneed to that House. The" Noble Lord himself
could not deny that the petitions. to that House had of
a
prodigiously increased. In the year 1701,
w
famous Kentish petition was presented, it was
lookedt years
quitea prodigy, 'filen the increased in-
fluence of the Press afforded another argument against
Reform ;
it was an influence by
sot-ahtieeli
‘eiheerye ehoyeurendelbl
by the
or less bound—all eTtlgs
o
influence
ha tie and of book clubs,
libraries
whichr the Pressexecis
all
ed. lay means
classesm ea n of circu-
lating of t h e
people
had become reader., and when they had come to read all
that had passed in that House, and all that was said out of
doors of public men, being Members of that House or not,
the intelligence and the comments of the Press were
conveyed almost with the speed of lightning to every
quarter of the earth where the English language was
canvassed '
spoken or understood. The effect, of all their measures
was, that it had
and proceedings being openly
n.ade the House of Commons alive to all that the people
felt upon any meter that might form a subject of political.

discussion ; that, then, had worked a real Reform, and all
the Reform that was necessary, for it established that sym-
pathy which should subsist between the people represented
and the people by whom they were represented. By the
system of petition, which now so generally prevailed, the
wants and washes of the people on all subjects were made
known to the Legislature. It was true, that by a conve-
nient fiction, the proceedings of that House were as a
sealed book to the people of the empire ; but by another
convenient fiction that seal was removed every morning,
and the people made acquainted, from one end of the
United Kingdom to the other, with every thing that had
been said and done in that House the preceding evening.
In the times so triumphantly refet red to by the Reformers,
the people knew nothing of the proceedings of that
House, fur it was thea a gross breach of privilege
to rrialie any publication concerning them. The de-
bates were then given, as they alight be seen in the old vo-
lumes of the Gentleman's Magazine, reported as they were
in the data of Dr. Johnson, as the proceedings of a poli-
tical club, the names of the Members being concealed
under the appellations of IL rtensios, Cato, petronius,
Flaccus, and such like. He had now to call the attention
of the House to a matter of considerable moment. He
believed that in the history of civilized man there was not
to be found any system of representation so completely
popular as that of the Noble Lord's, co-existing with a
free press on the one band, and a Monarchy on the other.
He believed that there was no instance upon record of a
fece Fess being placed in a jitxta-position with a Mo-
narchy and a system of representation such as that pre.
posed by the Noble Lord. Befnre ten years passel away,
they might rest assured that the measure of the Noble
!f qtreeq to, svophl produce a Shock so decisive, that
all the'intruilons of the' country woidd give way before
He said, if i,l.rriati—but for himself he had n u apnre-
'tension that it ever There was small danger that
each a nristare as that could ever receive the rcanetiou of
the licitee. An attempt at aue'h an experiment as that
had been made by the National Assembly in France.__._
Something of the sort had been attempted in Switzerland
;also, and a wss cow Dipg made in le:ranee.
How it mighererininate it wag not for hint to anticipate;
but he sincerely hoped, and; indeed, had little tear, that
tiny such experiment would ever 'be tried in this country,
in 'France it was perfectly well kltoten; for It was too ob.
vious to escape observation that the attempt to produce a
purely popular representation had in'errupted the coin:-
try in the fairest course of liberty; arts, domestic trade,
and foreign emomte,eeee, to which that particular conistrY
had ever attitined ; and he eniertainel not time slightest
doubt that Were the calamity peepos'eel by the Noble Lord
to be inflicted on this land that a ciinilar result would
ensue.—/Cheery,). When the Noble Lord, froM whom
and froth whn..e Government the present measure pro..
Ceeded, 40 years ago male a proposition in that House for
a much more metim rate Reform, he did not conceal from
the House that Oct. -eery moderate Reform involved a fun-
damental change in the Government of the country. What
was he not then bound to admit with respect to a ;'.k.,:iorin
plan that went, at 'a blow, to weep away one-third of
the House of Queen:lona? Were at agreed to the House
of ](gists; before ten years, would have but a nominal
T.A
existence. lie would call upon some Right .A. pts-A.
stout oppesite, supporters of the. 14e isle. tanning; he
would call ti= en thetia to answer the eloquence and rea-
inning of their, renowned leader, now no more. He said
that if the representation of the people was complete and
perfect in all parts, nothing could withstand its pe.war and
authority. In his (Sir 11. L's) elein:,o, an unreformed
House of Leeds would not ter a moment be tolerated by a
rCfermed House of 0114111011 S; anti Mr.' Canning more
than' once expressed his full conviction that tlae House of
Lords could not eoutintee its at present constituted if the
:easee-a c iteferin were once carried with reference to
the House of Commons. Would a reformed House of
Commons endure the interference of a Hause of Lords—
would they permit there to interfere with the Civil List—
wearki sherd nut be an 'appeal to phYaical force?. Much
bean said out of minors respecting the duration of pae-
lieu:cots.' There was very little foundetien for the com-
plaint on that subjeet, fey rimming the last SOO years it
act tally turned out, nitre examination, that only 21 Par-
liaments sat above three years, and that the average dura-
tion of all the Parliaments of that period was only twee
years and eight months. The ballot tan seas open to this
objection, that in :,,,vevy instance it required a previous
i scrutiny. Finally, t was his persuasion that under our
preient happy forM of Government, we enjoyed tenore of
public peace and commercial proepeerity than any other
country.

ts:ir B. SMITH nest addressed the House ; but the
•
bustle whieti prevailed rendered it extremely difficult to
collect his sentiments. We understood the Hon. Member
to soy, th 4 tieing anxious to support the true interests of
the country, he felt that he could not do less than offer e
few observations on this important occasion; n his opi-
nion, a necessity for Refoena did exist, and he was perfectly
free to ;;ani7ciss the reasons which weighed with him in
coming to that decision. In vindicating his own voteA he
should, doubtless, be vindicating the votes of many others
who viewed the subject as he did. F4reen yea's ago, he
should, peelie„ps, have arrived at a different conclusion;
Lan the, altered circumstances of the country fully justified
a change of opinion. If that change were once admitted,
the necessity of Reform must be admitted also. 714.? power
of the Aristocracy was, he coucei'ed, too great in that
House; and he though, in curtailing it to a certain ex-
teet, they did nothing unjust tower& that body.—(Hear,
hear.). He approved of the principle of the Noble Lord's
plan, though the whole of the detaile did not meet his
wishes. The Hon. Bearopet near him had observed, that
the Keposed measure would be injurious to their colonial
interests, since it would prevent the colonies from being
represented in that House. But he would ask, fir what
purpose had the colonies local Legislaturs, V they were-to
be represented in that House. In his opinion the repre.
sentation wan vitiated, not by the undue influence of the
Crown, but by the undue dictation of the Aristocracy. He
thought that the plan of the Noble Lord proceeded, how-
ever, too much On the principle of population, and too little
on that of property. The Noble Lord had said, that eme
of the great reasGns why the House oughty
point, and left
to receive this
measure was, because it etnhrit4 eyo
nothing for future deit.iskon ; but 'how could that be', when
it wei furnially Laid before Parliament for its serious con-
sideration ? One great evil of the present system was the
preval,nce of bribery and corruption ; and he would ask,
why had not the Noble Lord taken more me to Ere7ent
bribery and corruption in futtireE 11,e thought that the
oath relative to bribery and corroptio n u high was trndered
to the ejector' ought efso to be administered to the repre-
sentatire..—(Hear.) Reserving his right to state his opi-
nion on the different parts of the measure at some future
time, he thought it was proper,
.in this early stage, to 4;1,
dare that lie was favourable to the principle of t.,e plan.
Mr. H. TWISS said be held listened torn:profound'at-
tention to the Lard's analysis of the. new Cunstitn-
tiuu which Wei now offered to the country—(Hear)—and
lee rose to offer some few' observations on the absurdity and
injustice .Cf the plan, He felt that he undertook a very
difficult task, in rising so soon after the speech of the
Noble Lord; and he feared, moreover, that he had selected
the worst period that could be fixed ont aeoidst the agita-'
Lion and uneasiness that prevailed throughout the House.
—(Hear.) Opposed as fie had been for many years to
}Noble Lord's views of Parliamentary it mess
appeal- evident that the course he was abont to take that
night 'did not peoceed frOm a mere desire to disparage a
'oeasure on which the Government had taken their stand,
but rested solely on the foundation of principles which
were once held by the greater part of his Majesty's Go-
vernment themselves. A few mouths ago the most radical
speculator that ever existed could not have belieied that
the day was so near rehert -41 e altoihld see the Ministers of
the cronen proposi4''to remove all the proportions of the
Leei•lature, all the land-marks of the Constitution,—
caliing on the House to sweep away, be would not say the
Charters o: Corporations, but all the Charters of the realm
itself.--(Hear, hear.) Ile did not mean to eau tLat iq
thus acting they were quite withoot teree...e4at. .rtheY“Cer.
work f tithes tlit, times
tainly had a prcce!.ent
of c2t.4rit,il :0! atia'Am" 11. The same thing was done
► then as was attempted to be done now, under the colour
of the law. But the cOlillie pursued at that period had
been condemned with universal and lasting ek.,o,ob.atio, as
grossly unjust and unconetitetional.-7effected.uharo' object
which the Ministers
Judge Jefferiesi—that object being to
0,. that tray had in view; was effected
`give
bYtileadditionalt.,,,sistaneoa and unconstitutional power to the Crown,
as it was now sought to confer it on the democracy.
But what was done at the revolution? Why, those veleo
effected it placed the boroughs and corporatioos on thAr
proper footing ; and the decleration sent out Bang William, even be ore his ending In this country, after re-
probating theUnconstitutninal eve of Charles and James,
in one brief but most important sentence, that " all
tin: boroughs of England shall return again to their ancient
prescriptions awl charters." The Convention Parliament
of that day framed the Bill of flights; and the preamble
of that tell recited " that the Lords spiritual and temporal
and the Commons, then assembled at Westminster, were
the lawful representatives of the people of England." He
hoped that the same sound ,ense which preserved the in-
stitutions of the country in the first Parliament of Wil-
liam HI., would continue to uphold them in the first
Parliament of William IV.—(hear, hear.)—Toe Noble
Lord, he contended, had departed from his own principle
that all the community should be represented. He (Mr.
H. Twiei) would admit that 6? Hoßge had been SIM in

. •
granting the elective franchise to large towns, but it had
been alio slow in taking away the franchise from any town
until, upon a full examination of evidence, ,it appeared
that the franchise had been grossly abused ; but what way
the course proposed by the Noble Lord ? It was by one
sweeping measure to do away with the franchise of a large
number of towns, without any inquiry or any proof of
guilt whatever. in effect this was to sweep away every alloy
of monarchial or aristocratical principle from the pure de-
mocracy of that House. He would ask, were there any
twenty men in that House who did not believe, though it
might not be convenient or consistent with their power of
being useful members to avow the fact, that the will of the
people had already more controul in the Commons than it '
was strictly entitled to, consistently with the nature of
our Constitution? He was aware that this influence had
gradually crept in by the two Houses becoming Council to
the Government in all measures of great policy. He
knew that this could not now be altered ; but the fact of
its existence to its great extent showed the danger of any
measures which would increase the influence of the people
through one House. Any attempt to bring back the
former system of the power of the Crown in applying its
own estates for the purposes of Government, and calling
upon its vassals for support in its wars, would, be was
aware, justly cover its proposer with the ridicule of every
elan ; but there was a vast difference between removing
that mixture of the business of the Crown in the councils
of the nation, and a change which would give an entire
preponderance to one interest in the State. The real
danger to he guarded against was, not an increase of the
influence of the Crown or the Aristocracy, but the in-
fluence of the people. The real interests of the people
should be gnartiOd tiV4inet the influence of their own
paesinee and follies. The Ron, Member then went on to
contend that in the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, the
interest of nlincett every chute in the cotnnninity was
neglected!, except those of land and trade. There were.
.he maintained, a variety of interests which required
to be, and which were, now represented in the Heuee by
manta of the honottehe., These the Noble Lord now pro_
posed to. diefrenchisen r; .d thus left three interests without
that nepresentation to which, from their importance, they
were eptitleile Some of those boroughs were no doubt
under the influence of individual patronage; but that pa-
tronage was exercised in a manner which gave an inlet to
the representation nf these ioteeeste which their import-
ance demanded. Instead of these, the men who would
now Come forward for the boroughs which remained
would be men of greet wealth in their vicinity : men of
talents. and elaiiity, who now obtained seats for those ho-
eoughe, would be excluded. His objections to it might
be summed up in these three—tiest, the destruction of the
Charters of so many Corporations throughout the king-
dom—next, that through the breach thus tnado would be
poured in an overwhelming representation, which would
desiroy the remaining int:lt:twee of the Crown and lastly,
that it wotild deeevey the representation of those impel--
teat iotereete to which be hal alluded, He had no objec-
tion to any increase of the eeneesentation of great trading
interests, or to Opee lntereets which might be considered
necessary to ettpwort the executive in times of difficulty or
danger he would not object to such extensions of the
franchise as were proposed in the case of Gremponnd or
East Retford, but he could not see the policy of calling
to the aid of the country, in welt times, the wisdom of
householders whoese rent exceeded 10/. 'This Measure
w? Id not let in any great interests. It would• pro-
mote the influence of shopkeepers and country attorneys,
The leader of the country club would now be the matt of
importawee in his disnict, and his interest and influence
would be represented instead - eF those important
interests which were now let in.—(Cheers, and some cries
of " Oh l") He understood the sneer meant to be con-
veyed by those cht ere, but he %%Todd not retract what he
had said, nor did he mean by it to cast any reflection upon
the classes ter width he alluded. They were, no doubt
respectable in their way, but they were not the interests
which required additional representation in the country.
When he alluded to those classes in -this sense, he had the
authority of a writer, one of the meet ancient on record,
—one whose authority would not be weakened on this
subject, when he stated that his work was a part of the
Sacred :.-actaptures ; and if any sneer was to be thrown out
et what he read, he hoped the bletne would attach to him
for reading it, and net tts she work itself, The book from
which he theeid quote was that of " Ecclesiasticus."
After mentioning farmers, and others of that class, lie
added, " men who are wise in the work to which they
have given ther minds—men, without whom cities could
not be inhabited ;" but he added a little after, that t‘they
should not lie sought for in the public councils, nor placed
in the seat of judgment." Ise contended that the parties
whose interests would be represented ander the proposed
change, would be those shallow, but dogged politicians,
with whom relief from taxation was every thing, and the
support of public credit and national faith was nothing
—who looked upon rent and tithe as only a useleis
ineunilwance. He repeated that he did not object to
theee olesses in their proper place, but they were not
the persons whom he would choose to aid the coun-
cils of the country at this moment. Tee Honourable
and Learned Gentlennen then went on to contend that the
plan would Teat have the effect of saving expense in elec-
Oonse as the Noble Lord seemed to think. The increase of the
number of electors, they being chiefly of the poorer class,
would increase the temptetion to bribery and eorruptiou
fuT it would be seen that where the electors were few as
in Evesham, or numerous as in Liverpool, the temptations
to bribery would remain as long as th.ey were of the sante
class. Bat when half the Constitution had been thus
aerrendered, would it content the violent rafermers?
They
had avowed that it would not; and they said that,
having got this much, they would at a convenient time
come and ask for more. He did not blame Ministere far
this ; but he did blame them for holding out enpeotations
of Reform which they must know could nut be realized.
A some intrigue in some warta of-the country to take advan-
tagem fter
of al
the
otion of our great domestic or foreign interests it would
l, then,lw :nl t
seta
t s it
measure-mightlee
w create a sensation and
would create ; but for the pro-
: du nothing, or worse than nothing. It was said some
time ago the peopledid not desire this—that they were in-
different about it—that they Inoked onjy, to relief from
taxation ; but all attempts auth relief were now ex-
haustedretrenchment. by a Irli4iorY which had Caine into oiliest on the
change? He believed much of it was pro-,
be the feeling of the people some time ago. What, then,
dclauuc6d yibthethe fear of the exertion of the physical power of
the people, which had lately given such A an impulse to
affairs in France. Such a feeling- could, he hoped, affect
only a very few ; nnd Tit in Fraoce, where that chariee
had been In;lce be believed there was now a great re-
action. It was now felt thet most erroneous calculations
ha would ask any man of common sense, was there.
had ni,,en Made upon popular strength. But leaving that
point,
any parallel in the circumstances of France then. and.
England at this moment? Ile contended there was nut
any thing which could possibly call foeth a etmliav move.
ment here. If, however, any -one should be die and to
France, let him censider what France
by the change. If it should be said that dis-
tress had engender
Lh engendered revolution in France anti other
countries, let een:look at the condition of those countries
Whereit had taken place, and they would find that revo-
lutiongained.
of
in its tura begot distress, and of a touch worse Ot:
racter than that which it was sought to get red of. If it
could ha shown that this measure would 4a,ve. the effect of
relieving the existing (ligres, and its postponement
wouid aggravate tij evits of country, he would admit
the; the we was' something in that argutnent. But the
:nd,°:P:rhtlillvegt
err-de wasf:o
Aoii. 'Gentlemen opposite knew that no change in the
Constitution would afford them the means of retrencliiro
the expenditure of the country to any consitler‘al:e
tent. The financial measure of the CoyernMent must
have convinced every otos Cele relief} front taxation
was hoFeless. 4itke•W* believed that it was the
10..811.4 the. • liiliouable Gentlemen to effect reduc-
. tissue 'and alleviate distress ; but was their object
Rely to be obtained by a measure of popular Reform ?,-e-
The speech of the Noble Loid delivered in 141,.tea afforded
a reply to that question. Tito 'Lei then stated,
Is, that he did oet preo..cul tot say that Reform would make
roar chief hardens, A fondness for mt• was not the fault
le
-s4 to war, which was the cause of
of
a'.Krehical but of a popular Government."aide
anm
tohtehercoanudtluitettri az,tdiatrilicae,tryas ,
who planted the trieccloered d g in the aientiner of .18k1.0.,
and were. reeving it for War' the. spripg of 183),
'to'hiterfere • • 'Atriumph reign Time of the prin-
, (eieor, 640'. What obliged the Nt,ble Lord (Palmerston)
Reform. If this were the true state of the case,
be trusted that Hon. Members would not be induced by the
excited anti irritated state of the public mind to yield their
glaixed -at was so near as the Noble
own well-considered opinions with respect to a matter'
of so much importance.—(Hear, hear.) T 4 did' not agree
with the Noble Lord in thinking. that the danger which
he had so obscurely
Lord's ip;ag:pation had pictured. The Reformers, who
menaced revolution if Reform should be refused, would
any tisk for it.—(llear, bear.) It was, indeed, nothing
hardly think she proposed measure good enough to rub
but a mere evasion of their claims. But: he was happy
to siy, that lie had better security thantheir moderation
.
for the preservation of order.' The widely-spread, in-
dustry of the country, the stored-up savings even. of the
latter. orders, the
whole dividends even of the public stocks,
were solid grounds foe confidence in the security of the

nri n g
ye
yac tutp:
hmhe
• • • 1
Institutions of the cottetry.—.(llear, Insar.)...lli the
special blessing of Providence, the burdens of the country
isfiT)eiliaillrfirire'clny.nB—du:eirifib.anr{e
formed some sort of security for the welfare of the country.
erehhmeeufaanrirneti.
e:rlLoi :fie,
driTtgii
ivisl:iseietill„,fteg:w.s,e(
r)snaph.:li
people
le:
fol:inalttsh,btteeoea
nu Butsrue,l
t i nrifge
their welfare—if we decide on this gent question, not
according to experience and wisdom, but were led away by the cry of the day—then we should let in danger—then
we should let in revolution, of which the Noble Lord had
spoken—by teaching the people that their will would alone
direct the course of the Legislature.—(Cheers.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER differed
from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat
down, and who thought that great dangers were to be ap-
prehended from the adoption of the pleasure proposed by
his Hon. Friend. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman had
stated that those dangers were unnecessary to be incurred,
because the cell for, Reform was quite temporary, and pro-
duced by agitation. He (the Chancellor of. the Exche-
quer) did not think that there was at present any symptom
pressed,
ndaLoree ogafidicgta revolution e t ,o.
or any appearance of agitation in the country. Never had
so little pains been taken to get up public meetings on any
subject as had been the case with respect to the greet ques-
tion of Parliamentary Reform. —(Hear.)—The Hon. awl
Learned Gentleman had described time excessive evils
which result from revolutions, and had stated that those
evils had been felt by France and by Belgium, in the in-
terruption which their trade had experienced. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) agreed that great misery
accompanied revolution ; and be thought it was the duty
of Government to take such steps as would remove an
cause for discontent,aa(Hear, hear.)—Now what were
the steps which Government bad taken ? The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said that the complaints of the
people respecting the mode in which the Members of that
House were elected were groundless. If these complaints
were groundless, then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was right iu describing theta as temporary; but if they
were well-founded, it became necessary to introduce some
meastere to remove them. The grounds of complaint
were these :—the nomination-boroughs, and the great ex-
pense of elections. Now he would ask, could any man
suceeed in convincing the people that it was a beneficial
thing to have nomination boroughs._(Hear, hear.)—The
Hon. and Iscaroed Gentleman hail observed, that it was
by the 'hems of nomination boroughs that men of ability
nest obtained seats in Parliament. He (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) admitted that to a certain extent they
were advantageous ; but lie contended that the disad-
vantages of the system.counter-balenced the advantages of
the system. The s 3 stem of nomination-boroughs put it
in the power of persons of large property to dictate to the
Ministers of the day.—(Hear, hear. )—This dictation was
such as mutt constantly interfere with the good Govern-
anent of the country.—(Hear, hear.)--.This was an evil
which, in his opinion, counterbalanced, and more than i
counterbalanced, the advantages of the system which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had so much praised. It
wits eendeuletedly trite, as the Hon. and Learned Gentle.
man hail stated, that many able men had come into Par-
liament as Members for those nomination-boroughs; but
it did not therefore follow that those men would not have
come into Parliament if those nomination-boroughs - bad
not been in existence.—(Hear.)—The next complaint of
the people referred to the expenses of the elections. Whence
did these expenses arise? In the first place, from the
distance which the voter. had to travel to give his vote,
and, secondly, from the elective franchise being placed in
the hands of persons of no property, and who were liable
to be corrupted and bribed. The proposition to which
Government had pledged themselves was to bring forward
a full and efficient Reform ; and that pledge they eudea-
voured to redeem, by annihilating the evils of nomination-
boroughs, and diminishing the temptation to corruption by
!sh-sing the franchise in the hands of the middle claases.—
(Hear, hear. )—Another Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had denounced this as a step to revolution. Did the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman then mean to say, that the middle
classes of the country were rliecontented with the present
form of Government?—(Hear, hear.)—The present
form of Government was prized by the middle classes.—
( Hear. )—He meant the form of Government, of King,Lorda
and Commons,—not a House of Commons constituted
partly by nomination, and partly by purchase of seats.—
He dit mean to say that a houee so constituted was
popular,—(Cheers.) The people of this country, though
approving of a mixed Monarchy, did object to the system
of representation which prevailed. Perceiving that that
was the feeling of the middle classes, and feeling confident
that they had no wish for a change in the form of Govern-
ment, or any desire. for a revolution, his Majesty's Ministers
hail thought it their duty to propose the present pleasure,
being satisfied that the House might safely entertain it, as
it would place the election of members for the House of
Commons in the hands of the middle classes.—(Hear.)
It were his opinion, that if the middle classes of this or
any other country were hostile to the form of Government
under which they lived, whatever the state of representa-
tion might be, that Government would never be safe.--
(Hear, hear.) The Han. and Learned Member had ridi-
culed the middle cleseee..--(Hear, hear.) Yes, he hid
ridiculed all the middle classes of this country ; but the
Hoot Gontleman could not be aware of the extent of in-
telligence and information possessed by those classes, or he
would not have talked of them in the way he had.—(Hear,
' hear.) The middle classes of this country possessed a de-
gree of intelligence which fully qualified them to return
members to the House of Commons, whose honesty, inte-
' grity, and ability, would enable them to discharge their
duties to the benefit of the country.—(Hear.) The Hun.
Member for Oxford had argued against taking population
as a test for representation. He (the Chancellor of the
! Exchequer) proposed to take population as a test, for towns
to return Members ; but lie took property and not popu-
lation as the basis of the franchise.—(Hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who spoke last bad said something
about the seizing of the charters by James 11. : and com-
pared that circumstance with the proposed alteration for
the benefit of the popular branch of the legislature. The
Hon. Gentleman had truly observed, that our ancestors of
the revolution had considered that Act of King James a
most gross violation of the Constitution ; and they had so
considered it, because it was intended to be subversive of
, the liberties of the country, and to destroy every thing that
was valuable in the institutions of the land. But the objsct
of his Majesty's Government was, on the contrary, to este-
Wish the freedom of election, and make the popular branch
of the legislature a real representation of the people. He
. confessed himself one of those ,p apular theorists, who thought
that the House of Commons ought to be the genuine re-
presentation of the people.—( Cheers.) That was the con-
stitution of the country. Hon. Gentlemen might go back
and frail periods in bat barous times, when great outrages were
committed by the Crown against the privileges ofthat House,
yet it hail always been held to be the constitutional doctrine,.
that tlat Reuse of Commons ought to be the representation
of the people of England.—(lleer.) - The Hons Baroret
' (Sir It Inglis) had gone back to the time when, as ho said,
the House was the perfect representetion. of the people,—
namely, at the latter period of Charles L'a reign ; but at
that perierl the Hous: teas acting under the dictation of
Military powho, onsi all persons who opposed that dictation
were expelled.—(dear.) The lion. and Learned Gentle-
ri,tax, (Mr. Twiss) had said that the proposed teeatore of
Reform would give no satisfaction to the coutttey. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) was reedy tteadmit that there
might be some among the livi9rt.r„;ra Whom it would act
satisfy. But they were but 0, small minority of the class
which was calling 44; Reform ; and the Hon. and Learned
Genticooata %vast grossly mistaken if he supposed that it was
opt, the.ireet body of the middle I lasses who were. crying
"out for Reform.—(Hear.) He was coneiressal that the
i middle classes would be satisfied with. the proposition.—
The Hort. and Learned Geoalemaa was quite mistaken in
supposing that the proposed measure was not intended to
be a flea's itettletnent of the question. As . far as he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was conceeoed,
Fie did. propose it as a final settlement. let might be
supposed that his own opinion would Lave been favour..
stile to a somewhat different tetensure ; but lie thought
the best way to succeed in what, he had: long aimed at as
the great obieet ,f hist politiCal life, was to sacrifice some
of hie men apirtiOns..(dleat, henr.) Having, therefore,
united. with his culleznenats and agreed upon the measure,
t re. fele. himself pledged to support it, and not to go beyopd
it., He altattglit that great advantage would be seemed to
the country by the adoption of the proposition ; and that
the measure would he sufficient to njle that House, as it
ought to be, under tire influence oi hie people of England.
—(Hear, hear.) It hivl never been his habit tit look to
theory, but ette!..t.4 'to practice; and his wish was to re-
medy peeetical evils. He saw those peuitieal evils in the
oresent system ; and unless the House of Commons were
'placed under the influence of the country, those evils coati
never be avoided.--(Hear, heat.) He thought that.the
present proposition would have the effect of giving to the
people that influence ever the House which they ought to
'have, and whiCh be wished to give them.—(Heir, hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel, we be-
lieve) cheered him, in disepproaation of the sentiment
which he had expressed;, but he certa;nly was of opinion.
that the fictuse,of Coinmons should be under the influence
• not of the Aristocracy, Government,, nor the Crown, but
tender that of the great body of intelligent and respectable
classes of the country,—the large majority of the people
coming under thin distinction.—(Cheers.)
' . Mr. H. .TWISS denied having -spoken of the middle

I el..sees of the country with ridicule. He was in the re-
cellection of the House whether he did not, though inter-
rupted in the middle of the sentence which he was speak.
jug, guard himself against any possible slip which that
interruption might have occasioned, by saying that he did
not mean to disparage the middle classes. He certainly
d d think that there were objections to admitting them to
the enjoyment of the elective franchise on the large scale
that was proposed, not because they were not respectable
or well qualified to perform their accustomed duties; but
because there were to be found among them a class of po-
liticians most dangerous to the country.
Lerd GOWER said, that it was extremely difficult for
t'noe who stood up in defence of the established instate .
tions cif the. country, to say any thing new upon the sub-
iret ; while it was very easy for those who attacked the
existing system to vary the fettle of that attack, and to
draw on the store of their fancy for fresh arguments. It
was urr'er this disadvantage that he felt he was now ad-
dressing the Mouse. But however unable he might be to
make any new statements in favour of the existing
forms of the Constitution, he was sure lie should never fall
into such a gross error as to attribute, notwithstanding
the proud situation this country held in the rank of na-
tions, and the great prosperity in commerce which she
bad exp-rienc,d under the present system, the prevailing
distress to the want of a due representation of the people.
lie was sorry to see the Government telling the people
[hat their evils were owing to the present form of Govern-
ment, and that no alleviation of those evils could be (xe
pected, unless a change in the. form of Government was
effected. They ivere !ending themselves to delusions,
cvliicle like ail delusions of hope, would only end in dis-
appointment and despair. His object in rising was to call
the attention of the Noble Lord opposite to a subject re-
lating to that part of the empire with which he (Lord
Gower) was more immediately connected, and his con.
nexion with which was his best excuse for troublin. the
House. In a recent number of the Edinburgh Review..
the writer compared the condition of Scotland tend England
on a contested election, and he drew a picture, of Scotland,
in which there were strange topics of sorrow end hurni-
liaeion. The representatives of that country should do their
duty in Parliament, for if they did not, representation was a
farce, or the picture of the Edinburgh Review was false.
To speculative Reform he (Lord G.) objected; and lie called
upon the House to consider the subject maturely befere it
adopted such a system of Reform. He did not believe
that the operation' of the representative system of Scot--
land wan genes-ally understood even •in that House--
( Hear.) Seeing the effects of that system, he thought the
!loiter: would be induced to proceed cautiously ire adopt-
ing the projected scale of Reform, because there was a time
when the priests of Scotland were politicians. He should
be reluctant to introduce einougst a clergy who were now,
and who had been since the time to which he alluded, too-
dell, in their present operation, for the present and future
generations—(Hear)—any temptations to renew political
interference—(Neer.) No politician, no candidate, since
that time, had had to complain of that interference; the
clergy proceeded to their task steadily, and attended to no
other business but their own. The Noble Lord stated
that there had been a time in their recollection when the
subject now before the House did not excite that interest
which had assembled so many to-night. How did this
happen? Was.it from the influence of reason or of argu-
ment, or from any other cause, that the intense enciternent"
respecting this question bad arisen ?—(Hear.) • lie (Lord
Gower) believed he was inclined to conjecture, that since
the tune when, seated upon the oppoioto 'bench, he had
been lectured on the subject of Reforro, a considerable re-
action had taken place ; and he twee not surprised that
amongst the respectable, the ite:ellectual classes, compre-
hending in that number a large portion of the mid-
dling classes,—whom the Nehe Lord (Althorp) I. d
defended from an attack which had not been inteteied
—(Hear) sqp,c,thmar,L..-awethioicnhhhaialdtaktaenkepnlapeleLe
(liunttlo,ef
result seemed to be to the advantige of the anti-refermere.
d—dfi,so(('ruisiss,eaiionrn)the minor fry of paesphlets, he thought that the
Among the number, he might elude to one writren by a
Member of that House, whirls had made as great an im-
pression, and had been as much read as any political work,
and that Hon. Baronet had been returned her a close ho_
rough. The Node Lord referred, we believe, to Sir
John Walsh. He (Lord Gower) remembered what had
been said by Mr: Pitt, Mr. Windham, and Mr. Cennitig
he called to mind the voice of the latter, when he de- •
fended the Constitution from inroad, which he had left
as he found it. These were great authorities; there wire
none in that House who could take up their mantle, and
they deemed it no disgrace to defend this cause, and never
assumed a bolder attitude than when they placed them-
selves between the people and the plague of Reform—.
(Hear.)—Perhaps they might have been mistaken ; be
(Lord Gower) might he so too ; they thought that there
was a sufficient security for liberty in the House as 4 sviti
constituted, without the risk of universal ruin which
might be incurred by departing from it. They might be
excused if they were deceived. They had F,.ui practical
proof of the risk. Mr. Burke had le-en driven from a
just course of legislat.an—and why ?--the answer will
occur to every Irish Member—because he wished to knit
together this country and that of hat birth. He was os-
tracised from Bristol, and forced to take refuge in a close
borough ; and although the portal might be compa:.
ratively low, a man of honour end integrity might
pass it without stooping.—(Hear.)—With respect to the,
~hservation of the Noble Lord (Althorp) that there was a
dread of the influence of Members of Parliament over the
Ministers of the Crown, he (Lord Gower) was not sur-
prised that, even in so short a time, the Noble Lord had
found that difficulties attended that seat which were net
known by those who only sat on that (the Opposition) side
of the House. He had probably discovered that it was.
more difficult to legislate in the place where he now sat,
than to speak from the place where he (Lord Gower) pre-
sumed to address the House, and that a sense of those dif-
ficulties had dictated to the Noble Lord his line of argu-
ment. Rut there might be independent Members, even for
boroughs, able and willing to oppese any measure detri-
mental to the interests of the country.—(Hear.) He (Lord
Gower) looked at the prospect which this messere pre-
sented as one of risk and doubt. The Noble Lord said, that
the present Attorney-General had been returned on a
popular representation, He (Lard Gower) was not sur-
prised that snob a person, who ranked so deservedly high,
and to whom it had happened to be professionally engaged
on a most popular question, should have been so retureed.
In discussions out of the House, it had been imputed to those
who opposed Reform that they intended to excite alarm.
He (Lord Gower) did not fear the consequence; of any in-
vestigation on this. pint. He was not one of these who
could bear to see the tri-colour flag in the streets. In
France lie paid it every respect, he wished it success, and
p eyed that it might continue to be the guide to constitu-
tional, iiherty. But when that flag was exhibited in this
country, he could not but bear in mind that 800,000
men lead risen in arms to arrest tke mischief which that
flag would have dispersed in the country, Upon these
grounds, and other haportant points remained, he saw no
reason to change the opinion be had. always entertained
on the question of Reform. Thera was a eircumstanero
hewever, too personal to himself to permit him to trouble
the These with, but which made the course he took a
source of pain to hire. Though he might be open to the
charge of opposing what were called liberal measures, and;
might he treated with sarcastic reflections or contemptuous
silence, and assailed out of the House by the press, he
defied arty charge against him of corruption or had rim-
tivP, from which he was perfectly free ; anti he hoped
that the House would take it upon his perional pledge,
that if he hail studied his own comfort and wished to
avoid pain and anxiety, be would not have taken the
course he bad done tonight. There was only one more
topic to which, he would allude. The Noble Lord bad
pressed thne consideration that this measure heti emanated
from the Ministers of the Crown. He (]cord Gower)
,oetlinitted that if this measure was to he carried in the
country, it ought to be brought forward by the Govern-
ment. So far he agreed with the Noble Lord ; but be
could not go farther, and defer to the authority of Mi-
nisters. They had nut yet produced or persevered in eny
measures which vi:Atld justify him in placin ; that degree
of trust in them which ought to require the rel;nqnish-
ment of his opinion, and his deference to authorities which
st:li retained an influence over him. Therefore, he could
only
HUME rose amidst cries of " Adjourn," to move
-illy concede
hear.)tle t Noble Lerd'a measure respectful atten-
tion..—(dear,the adjournment or the debate till to-morrow (this day).
Sir R. P.FE.L wished to ask o question of tire N.itile
-Lord, in order to obviate misapprehension. lie wished to
ask whether it was ;art of the Noble Lord's ,lan to dis-
frenchise inhabitants. now paying scot and lot, and tutitl4l:l
-to vwe.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, that he intended to revi,ct
-exiting spalifications ; but on. the death or exp;nttion 11;e.
principktef the. measure would cum into operation.
The motion of adjournment was then carried.
QCONNELL presented a petition from Alexander
Jacobs„ the individual now confined in Newgate toor a..
breech of privilege, expressive of contr.tion forlis offence,
which he stated was moreover Vie rouit of mom:Ara:yr
exci*etnent.

The Hon. Member ;rave notice that he s'int&l
move that the petitioner be di.eharg,l.
Thea f
second
inteim Mutinyetmo to-morrow.
Bill was readsfir,t r7tn • /.e
read

Adjourned at Hal:l.pi,t Twelve o'clock.