The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-16 00:00:00

SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1822.

PARLI AMEN'

HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIOA.Y, FEB. i 5.

POPULATION.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY preserited a com-
parative Statement of the Population of 'the
United Kingdom, from the year 1801 to 1821.
Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.
Lord ASHBURNHAM presented a Petition from
certain Owners and Occupiers of Land of the
Rape of Hastings, in the County of Sussex, pray-
ing for Agricultural Relief.—Read, and laid on
the table.—Adjourned till Monday.

Agricultural Distress. They called for a Reform in Parlia-
ment, and he thought they were very right.'
Lord NUGENT said, he must divide, with the last speaker,
the honour of differing from the Member for Suffolk. He
thought the question of Parliamentary Reform was properly
connected with that of Agricultural Distress.
Mr. GOOCH, in answer to the observation of the Member
for Shrewsbury (Mr. Bennet), said, that for any economy and
retrenchment which was consistent with the safety and interest
of the country, he was as strong an advocate as the Hon. Mem-
ber himself.

Mr. BENNET said there never was any estimate, how-
ever expensive, proposed by Ministers, which was not support-
ed by the Honourable Member.—The Petition was ordered to
lie on the table.

Lord A. HAMILTON revived for Tuesday next the no-
tices of Motion 'which he had given, and which dropped yes-
terday.
Mr. HONYWOOD. presented a Petition fr,ein Kent, which,
he said, was the same in effect as those presented by the Noble
Lord (Nugent). The distress, he said, was notorious, and
could not be remedied but by a reduction of taxes.
Similar petitions. were presented 1)y Mr. ROBERT SMITE
from Thickingham, and by Mr. Coss, fzoni Norfelk.—They
were ordered to lie on the table.
WESTMINSTER PETITION.

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he had the honour to pre-
sent a petition which had been agreed to at a most respectable
meeting of the inhabitants of Westminster. En all the senti-
ments of the petitionerS, with one single exception, he entirely.
concurred. The petitioners complained not merely of the ef-
fect of taxation, but also of those gross violations of law and of
the constitution which had recently taken place. In so much
of the sentiments of the petitioners he ecncurred; but they at-
tributed much of their present distress to the measure generally
called Mr. Peel's Bill, and in this opinion he could net concur.
He had examined all the papers from the year 1800 to the pre-
sent time, which could give any information on the subject,
and he found that the price of bullion and of produce never at
any one time bore a relation to each other.—(Hear, hear.) —And
he found that when bullion had suffered a slight deprecia-
tion, produce was at the highest price.--(Hear, hear.)—He cer-
tainly could see no immediate connection between Mr. Peel's
Bill and the present distress : for paper was nearly at par with
gold, no less than three years before that Bill, and all that the
Bill said was " You shall not return to a depreciated cur-
rency."—(Hear, hear.)--and with this trifling exception he
concurred in every word of the Petition, which he should move
be brought up.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he had been desired by his Consti-
tuents to support the present Petition, a Petition which he be-
lieved contained more wholesome truths than any other ever
presented to the House. It declared that the prayers of the
people had been long disregarded, in pursuance of that syste-
matic and avowed contempt, which prevailed in that House,
of what was called popular clamour. It complained of the
defective state of popular representation, and attributed the
evils which had befallen this country to the corruption of Par-
liaments. To the corruption of Parliaments, it ascribed the
loss of America, and the destruction of independence abroad as
well as of independence at home. To the same cause it refer-
red the standing army bill ; and that monstrous taxation
which wrung from the people of this country a million of pounds
in every six days, a fact as true as it was apparently incredible.
The best definition that he had ever read of taxation was, that
ivhich described it to be the taking of part of a man's property,
and securing him in return the possession,. the enjoyment, and
the comfortable expenditure of the remainder. And how did
English taxation answer this test? Did it give security for the
miserable remnant of the property it left ? Was it not well
known that which was taken in taxes created a fund, in which
the remainder of the property was afterwards swallowed up ?
'these were questions that were answered by. the distress which
stared every man in the face ; and it was impossible to doubt
that the weight of taxation had now grown intolerable.
The affair of Manchester was alluded to by the petitioners, and
he trusted that the day would yet arrive when the sufferers on
that occasion would obtain redress.—(Coughing.)—He pre-
sumed the House would chew some respect to the Electors of
Westminster, whose petition he was supporting.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—The massacre of Glencoe had not been inquired into
until six years after it had taken place; and he therefore did
not despair of living to see an inquiry into the transactions at
Manchester. He was happy that he had not commented at the
moment upon the language used by two Gallant Members the
other evening ; for had he done so, he might have been led
away by his feelings, as they no doubt had been by theirs.--
They had their feelings—he had his. He was the friend of the
unarmed. The, petitioners, he would take leave to assure the
Noble Marquis, so far from being his enemies, were his best
friends, for they told him those wholesome truths which it was
the interest of others to conceal from him.
Lord OSSULSTON differed from his Hon. Friend the
Member for Westminster, in his view of the question respect.
ing the currency. The Noble Lord spoke very shortly to ex-
plain the reason of his differing in opinion from the Hon. Ba-
ronet, but the noise in the House was so great that he could
not be distinctly heard. He was understood to say, that the
inference of the Hon. Baronet was not warranted by his state.
ment of the relative price of bullion and produce.
Sir F. BURDETT explained ; after which the Petition
(which hqs already been before the public) was read and ordered
to lie on the table.

Mr. PRICE presented a Petition Jim the Owners and
Occupier's of Land in Herefordshire, complaining of distresi,
and praying for a remedy by means of retrenchment in the
public expenditure, a reduction of the interest of the national
debt, and a reform in Parliament. He fully agreed with the
Petitioners upon the subject of retrenchment, and thought this
was no time for minor reductions; but he withheld his 'ssent
from that part of the Petition which suggested the touching of
the interest of the national debt. He deeply lamented the
adoption of that Continental policy which had caused much of
the debt to be incurred ; but he could not consent to the
abandonment of our national honour. Upon the subject of re-
form, he partially agreed with the Petitioners. He was not one
of thosei who wished for a sudden and extensive reform ; bat he
thought a moderate and temperate reform of the abuses which
time had brought about in the Elective Franchise, not only
would be politic and wise, but was really due to a suffering,
patient, and loyal people.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved for a Return of the Num-
ber of Newspapers, with the amour.: of Duty paid on each.—
Ordered.

STATE OF THE NATION.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of
the Day for the House taking into consideration his Majesty's
most gracious Speech.
The Order of the Day having becn read by the Clerk at the
table,

The Marquess of LONDONDERRY rose. The
House would believe him when he assured them
that upon no occasion in the whole course of his
public life did he address them with feelings of
so much anxiety as those under which he then
laboured. It had never before been his lot to
call the attention of the House to u subject of
such interest as the present; an interest, he be-
lieved,as great within those walls as it undoubtedly
was without them. The interest of every per-
son in the community was more or less involved
in the discussion of that night. (Hear, hear,
hear !)—lle -felt depressed at the possibility of
not adequately discharging his duty, and he
therefore threw himself on the indulgence of
the House. It was his wish to compress as much
as possible all the information he had to lay be-
fore the House ; and yet he a ished tp omit no fact
of any importance. If, therefore, in the course
of his address, he should, in order to enonomise
the time of the House, assume propositions rather
than prove them ; if he stated figures, the con-
clusions upon which were not immediately clear,
he begged the House, for the moment, to admit
the assumption in one case'and the conclusion in
the other; he pledging himself not to hazard any
one statement in which he would not afterwards
be completely bottle out. The House would be

PRICE SIWENPENCE.

aware that the statement he was about to Make,
was one extremely liable to error. But he as-_
sured them that he would advance nothing but
what he believed to be founded in truth, upon
solid information; and that where, from ihadvera
tency, he might be led into mistake, he should
, consider himself as open to correction.—(Hear
--It was his wish to economise the time of the.
House, and therefore he should proceed upa4i
the clear principle of laying data upon which
he should argue, apd in support of theta ha.
should bring forward those calculations which
he believed to be true. It was gratifying to,
him to be able to state, that he should stast
from the same point as the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham), who had
preceded him on the same subject the other.
sight ; but although they advanced from tae=
same point, in travelling over the wide ft* of-.
discussion they would soon part company. has the.
way. He had no objection to a,surne with that
Learned Gentleman that such was the situation..
of the country, that there was no degree of eco-
nomy which Parliament could attain to—no mode.
of relief consistent with the doctrines of Political
Economy which could be devised for abating the
pressure of taxation, that it was not the bounden
duty of Parliament to apply.—(Hear, hear')—
It was impossible after the struggle from which
this country had passed, and with the important
changes in the diversions of property which had
been effected. by the return to that standard of
currency which ought always to be the measure.
of the country, that it should not be oppressed
with difficulties which required their most labo-
rious and most vigilant exertions to counteract.
With respect. to this view of the matter, therfa.
fore, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and him-
self started from the same point. They 'differed
in the mode of administering relief, but in their
impatience for economy entirely agreed. • *He
would not, however, detain the House long in
explaining the distinction between that lion.
and Learned Gentleman's views and his own.
Nor would he trouble them at all witty this
branch of the question, could he feel persuaded
that the House • had read as he (Lord London.:
derry) had done, the picture which the lion.
Member drew of the state of the country in 1816,
and compared it with that which he drew the
other night; for that contrast would establish
all he wished to point out as the distinction be-
twixt their views. Fortunately for the country
the House had not been hurried into that course,
so contrary to the dictates of wisdom, which the
florid pictures of distress which had been placed
before their eyes, even so late as last Session,
had been intended to operate. That distress,
the House might be assured, was fast moving
away before those great national causes, which a
country like this never failed in evincing in the
hour of need. The commercial and manufac-
turing interests had undergone such a change as
exhibited them in a situation of more healthful
prosperity than they had ever before been at any
period of our history. He did not wish to be
understood as asserting that these classes were
now working for as high prices as ever they had
been ; for then it would be the reverse of what
he had stated, as they all knew how much idle-
ness accrued from extravagance. But instead of
industry being goaded on by extravagant wages,
it was sustained and encouraged by adequate re-
turns. The manufacturing classes were in a
state of great comfort; and looking towards bete
ter times even. It would not be too much to
say of them that they now got twelve peace where
before they only got eight pence, and that they
could obtain for the latter what formerly would
have cost them the former. So that they were
enjoying an improvement of 100 per ceet.----- •
(Hear, hear!)—He was able to go along with the •
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. liroughaeo)•
in deeply deploring the condition of the agri-
cultural interests, under the temporary presume
of evils to which they were subjected. fie
hoped, however, that what tie said as matter of
consolation, they would be satisfied proCeeded
from a tone of mind which was the consequence
of his entering with deep sensibility into their
sufferings. His interest slabs 'o bound up with -
the landed, that if he was to exercise any watch-
fulness upon himself, it would be directed against
those dispositions into which the feelings of hu-
manity might burr) him. It was almost impos-
sible to separate interests in this country, bum
unquestionably the landed interest was entitled
to the greatest share of popular sympathy.—
; (Hear, hear !)—He must here correct the lion.
and Learned Gentleman opposite, as to a state-
, ment he had made connected with this. branch
of the subject relative to the decrease in.the con,
sumptioh of malt. He was the inure desirous of
doing this because he was aware of the double
purpose that statement ails-hi:ended to effect, in
pointing at the operation of taxation in oppress
sing the agricultural more than ether interests.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had stated
as an extraordinary fact, that the country con-.
sumed nearly one-third less malt now than it
thirty years ago. if the Hon. Gentleman meant
to state that the consumption of malt had not
kept pace with the growth of population, he
(Lord Londonderry) would not contend agaitrt
• him, but if he meant to say that a diminution in
the consumption of this article proved -a dimina-
lion of means in the nation, 'he stood decidedly
opposed to him. All. that was proved by it, he
meant to contend, was, -that it proved a change
in the habits and tastes of the country.—(hear'.)
For he would point out an increased consumption
in other articles more expensive ; so that the ar-
gument of thelion.•Gelitternau, if good for any
thing, meant that there was a general decay of
prosperity, or that the tax ou that article-was