The Sun.
London, England, 1813-03-03 00:00:00

.tio-tb the manner in which this'had been to often
brdtight fo-rWard, hp had felt it incumbent on him
to.z-ivc in the present instance that eXplanation of
• his vieWs which he had submitted to.the'llouse,
Was ~.atisfied, that if -means could be 'devised.
admitting,. with .safety, the Catholics to the
e tiovnlent:of the privileges they claimed, that it
wouk give additional strength to the Em-
pir, great additional strength to the State, ctntl
would, in every point of view, be most beneficial
to the country. lie was therefore wiling to .
g go
into the Committee, in the hope that some-
thin satisfnctory wonld bedeviScd, tie wished he
could.'see his way through but 'this lie could
.not. •If all the obstacles, which at 'present offered-
themselves, to that which they Wishei! to. effect,
were removed, still be was not prerm:ltosay that
they could proceed to execute the measure, which .
might be decided on. It ivas a sutject on which
they ought not to "be hurried. `This nieasufe,
Ultimately adopted; ought not to' be resblvecr.
on in a day ; it Was ,on on which, not
only' the Legislature.'ifinght to'have time calmly
to cfmsider, •but it; was one on which the Public
orght to have an opportunity early to deliberate,
hz..fore it was atter4pted to be carried into ttfect.,
The Catbolic' Mind was not at present .in that state
to which it was desirable it shimild be broUght-;
and if that. cbange were already effected, which
be lisped no very distant period .vvonld .produCe,i
still, in the c;:i;ting'seate of things, he conceived
there" Would be an insuperable tliiiculty in the way
of immediately executing. part of the meastlre,
which nt;ght be resolved on, on account of the
present situation of the Popo. The Noble Lord:
coacluded,, shortly re-stating the- principles un,
which he voted for going into the Coaimittee.

A great many Alembers- rose at, the sane mo.
ment, to address the Chair, when the last speaker
resumed Jiis seat. rent anxiety was manifested by
the :House to hear Mr. Ponsonby, (who was
among those who Jiad risen). but the Speaker
named

____... . ..
Mr. G. ROSE. Tile first part of this Right Ron.
Gentleinau's speech, from the noise which pre-..
wailed in the lionse„...it 'Vii impossible distinctly
to hear. We understood him to say, no man Was
_ __

more anxious than himself to concede to the Ca,

tholics the priOleges they required, if means could
be dev:seci to grant them with security to the Pro-
testant Establishment ; but of the practabi,lity of
doing this at Feick, be entertained great doubt.
The Noble Lord was completely mistaken, if he
thquet Igr, Pitt hid never changed his -mind on
the sobject of the expediency of admitting the
Catholies to the priviler" of the Constitution.
lie had thought the discussion of the subject at
yarion, periods inexpedient. • •
Lord CASTLEREAGIi
M. M. Surroti Aid- not know whether going
into the Committee was or was not a •merematter,
of form_ it .vas-eonsidereil'as a preliminary to

.
.grantmg further concessions to the. CatlinliC,4", he
should feel it his duty to oppose it. The Right
'Honourable Gentleman who had brought this sub-
ject forward, had pot very explicitly described his
plan. had,stated that:restrictions were neces-
sary; and another Gentleman who bud spoken soon
after, to whose speech shell Frequent reference had
been Made, had thottght the Veto could not 1.7 t.,
ive auctrecorotn estuted estic °min
Then came an Honootable Baronet, who Con-
tended this Would be fundamenta:ly objectionable,
and therefOr. they most, in his opinion, return to
the Veto. Others followed, who; though they
believed thatneither of these could be obtained,
that the Veto would not be conceded, and
that domestic nomination would not be conced-
ed, still . thought that something satisfactory
could he 'devised in the Crillltllittee. He could
not concur with those, who thcitight restrictions
likely..lo be devised in the Committee,which,
though different from all hitherto proposed, would
be satisfactory to the Proteqa:.ts; If they went

int.() the Committee, anti ease ()it of it without
(loin anv thing, be thought- the result 'would
be incal'enlanly mischievous:- HopeS met ex-
pectations baying -been' excited, such a re-
sult would occasion much dissatisfaction, and
a great ferment in the country. The Pro-

tystaors he exasperated •liy their going
into the Committee, and the Catholics disappoint-
ed. With this impression on his mintl,lhe could
not but strongly ohjectto this proposition of the
Right Hon. Gent:lent:an. The sense of the corm-
try furnished a :strong objection to the mequre.
He thJught the Petitions-on their table ought not
to be set .Lsic:c-, as sonic lieistlemen seemed dis-
posel to put them ;. and still less did he think they
ought to be treated with that ses'erity of sarcasm,
which sonic had indolved.. On the impro-
priety of this he conic entea at.some length, and
complained of the refleetiOn 'thrown on the Cler,
gy, who had come forward on this occasion.--.
Here the. Honor able Gelid :bitten adverted to
what, had. fallen from an Honourable'llatanct
'( ;ir 11 Heron) on a fowler evening,- on the sob-
ject of .?..paurphlet published Ii) a U.:wired Prelate
(the 13iShop of Lincola),. which the lon. Bait.
had said accused the atkoca!'es of the C,itholies
of " ortful mi:epre3entation, liht2r4ty,
or infidel imilifereoce.7 He (toped thLi
able Baronet had since read the pamphlet of Which
he had spoken; for he (Mr. M. Sutton) iiras sure
he could ;sot have read it before. If he had read
it, he thought he: would not maintain what he had
'thus advanced. He was of opinion, that Mr. Pitt
was in principle decidedly in favour of Catho,
lies, but • times and.circumstanees had prevented'
his acting on this feeling. Looking at times ;:trUl
circumstances ow, he could not think, had Mr.
Pitt lived, be w4tild have been disposed to go into
a Committee on the subject of their

Sir R. HERON, in explanation, said he'rosc'to
reply to the attack which had been, made on hint
by the last speaker, as well as to that which had.
been Made on him the night befora, by another
ißight Hon. Gentleman, Who had accused him of
a gross calumny." The statement of the last
speaker respecting. him was a most unfair misre-
presentation. tie then read the passage alluded
to, front the pamphlet which had been mention-
ed; and left it to the. House 'to dec'ide whether he
It" bred 'guilty of a gross calumny; oitswhether he
bad been misrepresented. The' Hon. Baronet
while reading the passage in question, was re-
peatedly cheered. • Having finisliett, he said he
Would now ask if he was' right or wrong in the

. • -

meaning he had a...4ixei to .it, awl it' he Lid
gnilty of promillgating ealtann).
Mr. P. PEEL! wit h'.!! ad ;
and to which the lion. 13.aronet h'ad aIL td, re-
ferred to that remarkable expies,;o,,,
Baronets's speech, ‘vhich he had used crh( .k-
-ing of the Petitions received from the
.'I hose Petitions heltad represented aS co ling
from those who had " mitres on their head,, or
who had mitres in their heads.'" "- This," said
the Right lion: Gentleman, " I said was .a gross
"calumny, and from that expression I do not de,i.
part." ,
Mr. M. SUTTON' repeated that the passage in
the pamphlet which had been alluded to, did not
deserve the construction which had been put on
it, and contended he had a. right 'to stae such
to be opinion, And this opinion he would still
maintain.

[The Right Min: 'Gentleman had mach diffi-
culty in making himself beard, from the. impa-
tience of the House' forJlie,, debate to proceed.
When he had 'concluded, several. Members ro.e,
among them Mr. Pansonby, who was loudly call-
ed on to proceed.] •
Mr., PoNsoNny said, what, had just passed -
showed to what a perfection the critical tu-te of •
the House had been brought. This, however.),
had been amply illustrated, in the course 'of the:
present discussion. They had, nevertheless, been,
told that they ought not :to criticise the Petitions
submitt'ed to them too closely ; yet one Gentle.
man who had spoken from under the gallery had
said he cotild not vote fox
,the motion on aceOunt,
of the intemperate language held_ by the Irish.
Catholics, and this though the English Catho-
lics, it was admitted,.had urged their claims with,
singular modesty. Thus it would he seen in
whatever temper the Catholics pursued the object •
•they had in view, with some it was impw:sible
their prayer could have effect, Particular notice
had been takeit of what had been said of au Hon.
Baronet, respecting a certain Prelate;
,yet last
night, the Chief Seeretary,far Ireland had cast
quite
,as strong a reflection on another Reverend
Prelate, who was in every respect as venerable
and as immaculate as the Bishop of Lincoln.
Mr. CROK.4It spoke to order. He wishtd.there-
ly to say that his Right Hon. Friend .had last
night distinctly disclaimed any intention of cast-
ing
the most dist,nt reflection on the ReV.,PreH
late alltided to.---(L014 Cries " Chair
gear !" Sm.)
The SPRAKER said it was not strictly regtilar for .„
one Member thus to rise to explain what had fal-
len frOm another. •

Mr. PorisoNnv resuined. The intemperate lan-
guage held by the Catholics, he' contended, , vas
not to he wondered at 10en the., state of, the,press
was considered, which was understood to be un-
der the controul of the Right Hon, Gentleman's
Government, 'from which publications were con
stantly 'issuing, with vituperations and shut-
der% against the Catholics. It was said, as' the
Catholic religion remained ,unchanged, the Cath6- .
lies were no more to .be' trusted no..v than they
N".".'ereal century or a century and a half ago. 'Did,
they helieVe any retinae was to be placed orti ti;e
oath of a Catholic? ifthey dill not, they must be-
lieve the Catholics c.t n ble of the most abominable
peljnries ; if they. did believe tile Catholic on
his-Oath, when he s•.l-,..»-tt that no foieiem
J,_cle
sia-stieal authority " has, orought to have'' any
temporal power It hatc rev hi tlu King's doininion,;,
they ought to be satisfied that his faith was »ot
dangerous to the State. llefore they a“urned'tifat
it was hostile to the State, it ought to be she Y.-11
in what i'espect.ltiS akknowledgme9t of the snore-
macy of the See of Rome could produce titischi,-
yous effects. Would the l'otie raise an army to
fight against this country, or would he assist the
views of foreign powers ,• hy,seducing the subjects
of this country from their aLegiance I. Would he •
assail us by open force, or endeavour by secret
plots ;o tindermiue•our ruin ?• In no one of these •
designs could the Catholic concur according to •
the oath he had taken. lie had felt much satis-
'faction at bearing the Noble Lord (Lord Castle-
refigh).say •he would •Certainly vote fortgoing into
the ,Committee, but that satisfaction had' been •
considerably abated at finding that he would as
certainly vote against the Bill which it would sub.
oquerl;y'be proposed to, bring in. On the sub- •
ject ,of the'r'eto he haul to observe, he did nut
know that it was' nipossible for it ever again to be , •
brought forward. The ,Catholics had not said
they wotild'never concede 'it. All they had skid -
*as, that at 'that time .(the time at which their
resolutions were passed) that it was inexpedient to:
give it up. Ile admired thetender anxiety which hind
'been displayed by some llon. Members for Catho-
lie consistency,asmanifested by theirearnestemba-
yours to prove that the Veto -would never' be eon-
ceded, and that domestic nomination would never
be submitted to,' and on this ground objected to •
taking theirClairus into consideration. Tlie (1,3-
tholics were suspected of entertaining soniesecret
opinions (secret they must he; for no such opi-
'lions had ever lien avowed), that they were not' •
bound by an oath to keep their engagements with
thu who prof.:Ased 'a difterent religion. Ott the
of.ment,al reseryation,be wished to -read.
a the C;::titolics. 'To these he wiAh-
to call their attentio:.., •es what lie was about •
to react was read to' the tioase, and • was worth
hearing. The Catholics had- not affected to d •
spistt.the charge perferred against them on the
r...tbieet, but had applied themselves to' di:Trove
.4., and deektred, " That, it. was a funtiamenral
principle of their religion, that no person ou etirt.ll
could license men ~•to. lie, forswear, or 'perjore
iheinselvei„or to act agahtst theircountry, folder
the pretetiet•of serviugthe eattse Ofreligioa, and
all pardons issued, On such grounds, could have
no validity, and Wald - only acid sacrilege and
blasphemy to the aboye7inention The
crimes. T
NOhle Lord had-said this was not thy time at whijb..
the nieasure that might be resolved on, in favnir
orthe Cathalics,'could be initnediately carried into
effect. He heard it was one %Odell
.ought not to-be -
hurelee; ,which could mot -be conic to in a day.
No one wished it to bit 2trirriecl ; on the contrary',
they ‘ere ready to give any, time for the con- •
sideratfon of it which 'Abe ['oldie. Might think
reasonable. Motions on this sithieet, it was for
merly said, were useless ;. hut, lie would ask, had.
the discussiOn of the Claims of the Catholics done
no good for the cause ? He heard, indeed, that
the 'sense of the. Country was against it, but It: