The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-22 00:00:00

sition

if hiq

cirty
coul
Warl

COUD

yen
add
exp
tha

wh
Wai
Jou

ught in a BM
whatsoever.

istry had de-
n showed their
rence between
obe), he would

use upon Mi-
tionary Bill—
ition, he could
ommend it to
[ajesty hid not
refuse that re-
rnment should
r, although he
Id not respect
at they would
d nut expect.
ling for place
Hear.) They
, indeed, they
tax on steam-
mained, upon
laughter, and
r--they would
sib?e moment.
s Mr. Canning
y were driven
at--and when
t, they would

Lted the Muse
Bill. He wits
equenee of the

le Noble Lord
on of Ministers
and spirit. He
for the second,
total disregard
unfortunately
if this question
by the country
tainly not ; but
rich could only
state of excite-
lich was then
ish excit-ment
inlet, the mea-
at the country,
that House.--.
Parliament at
criminal. He
Ily weapon into
vernment that
the grasp of a
might commit

aid not resign.
Sovereign and
the wisdom and
ibject. It was
to the wihhes of

d liimaelf from
his vote, upott
General. He
d it a most un-
and Ireland at

The grounds
England ; and
sing up the full •
sod reason why
Scotland and
;he present Ad-
aissible respect,
as cordially as-
Ile accordingly
Except some
toy tittle, there
him to give it
nt a dissolution
. The state of
nties--the pea-
vas no security
or security did
a wool I not he •
excitement of
iation-boroughs
:intation of Ire-
., were they so
is as to suppotia
t? He could
elections which
decided by trig '
terford. What .
npared with the
by the Govern-
:e hands of the
I ? Was it nut
(ember for Wa-
.l of the Union
onet would not
!ueen's County.
t, without the
e Lord now re-
defeated by the •
ober ? Where,
ble to give free
lie counties in
old not be need
'ell it, fur he ba-
the Hon. and
—that the elec-
at the repeal of
deed, any other
oform.—(Hear,
s might nut he
ed Member was
that they were
.casion; but he
the Hon. and
wer enough to
untry. It was
be made to the
t might ensue.
respect to the
He had never
vote by ballot
lat the effect of
of this country
was opposed to
nd as decidedly
tuency of Pres-
ild against the •
leprive property
lad few fears or
mihably should
insistency were
if the election. ..-
;th of any prae-
reason
be had
East Retford;
as he had now,

He should be
1 for Scotland
it town of Ba-
rnard. He was
to al the great
Reform of this 'l
usfifiable course /
ue Session, and I
3t ought nut to
n, and to make

hile his lion.
was impossible
what was the
laughter.)--If
!hate on a ques.
w when the de
—(Bear, hear.)
Gent!cairn
ing measure, as
afterwards, he,
the head of the
was ten times
ected to the in.

vindicate the
That at an early
in itself a jus.
au opportunity
_(lean )—lle
opposite that it
ik that experi-
ie was fraught
!ult. lie qual2
ing the littolm.
of objection to
le further pro-.
of the matter►
pinion; but Pe
are on a motion
I" his mil'
Cf twO
lye pi oportioo
proportion wag
In made to 010

. .
number of Members for Ireland and Scotland, but th,
number of those for England ought to be retained.—
These—if be concurred in any measure of Reform—thes,
would be the grounds on which his concurrence wool.'
be based; and these were the grounds on which thc
Noble Lord, now at the head of the Governmont, pro-
posed a Reform in 1800. At that time Mr. Grey wa,
of opinion that the number of the Members ought to he !e-
-duced. and his plan of reduction was this : he proposod to
cut off several small boroughs, and in that way to redue.'
the number of Members for England and Scotland, and
to allot to Ireland 85 Members instead of 100. Thus he
proposed to retain the proportion between the menabet,
for the three countries, on the ,atne basis that had beet,

fixed at the time of the Union—a basis determined by
their relative wealth and population—(Hear, hear.)—
such a change might be desirable—to one more extensive
he (Sir R. Peel) certainly should object. He never
meant to go into the Reform Bill for the purpose of im
proving its details—(Hear, hear)—he was oppose! to the
Bill distinctly, decidedly opposed to it--opposed to it be-
cause it was brought forward at a moment when expecta-
tion was most excited. if Reform was desirable, it should
be made a substantive measure, and be introduced under
the existence of less excitement than at the present mo-
ment. He had, therefore, no wish to improve the details
of the Bill, and at the third reading he should most pro-
bably have been fnund expressing his dissent from the
Bill. That the Ministers should give up the Bill on a
resolution that, in case of a Reform, the number of Eng-
lish representatives should not he diminished, was to him
a thing the most unaccountable.—(Hear.) If the Go-
vernment had determined to dissolve the Parliament, he
deeply lamented it, en account of the hazard to which he
feared they would subject the country. He thought
there was no justifiable ground for there coming to
such a resolution.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Because !this question of Parliamentary Reform
had been negatived, Government felt it requisite for the
proper administration of the affairs of the country to dis-
solve the Parliament. In his opinion, the measure was
not one of such imminent and immediate necessity as to
justify them in coming to such a decision. He could,
however, well understand the motives for pressing on the
measure. It had been brought forward at a time of great
excitement—an excitement shared by those who had in
some measure created it. Let them look at the language
of a publication conspicuous for the talent with which it
was conducted, and supposed to represent pretty accu-
rately the opinions of at least some of his Majesty's Minis-
ters. Let them read the Edinburgh Review, published
in last Autumn, and they would find there a reference to
the " beautiful days" of Paris ; and when they had seen
this, let them say whether his impression was not correct,
that some of the authors of this Bill were sharers in that
general excitement which had recently prevailed through-
out Europe. He fully believed that if time had been
given, that re-action, which had already begun in public
opinion—(Cheers)—he might say manifestly begun—
(Cheers)—would have extended itself over a'l classes,
hardly excepting even those who thought they were inte-
rested in the success of the Bill, as it would confer on
them new privileges.—(Hear, hear.) But whether it
was so or not, he thought that no Admioistration ought
to undervalue the opinions of those who had already so-
lemnly declared that they could not give their assent to the
Bill. The wishes of the people had been talked of. When
they talked of the people, they talked as if the people were
to be numbered by heads, and they forgot the influence of
wealth and education.---(Hear, hear.) It was impossible
to deny—looking at the number who had spoken at the
various pub ic meetings throughout the country, and look-
ing at the ability and the disinterestedness they bad dis-
played—that there was great discordance in public opinion
as to the merits of the Reform Bill; and he would assert
that no man was entitled to say that this Reform Bill met
with that unanimous approbation which the Government
had said the introduction of that Bill had occasioned. The
Bill was ba-ed upon no principle; but proceeded through-
out its several enactments on a matter of assumption, seve-
ral of its enactments being most arbitrary, yet they pre-
tended that no other could be received in the country with
any feeling but that of dissatisfaction. If the Parliament
was to be dissolved because this measure could not be car-
ried, then many measures relating to the internal tranquil-
lity of the country, and to its foreign relations, would be
lost. There was, however, as it seemed to him, no im-
mediate necessity for dissolving Parliament. What was
the pretext of it? That the government were afraid to
keep alive the excitement that now existed. They need
not fear. It would die of itself.—(Cheers.) It had
before.—(Loud cheers.) He had indeed heard com-
plaints from the opposite side of the House that the
people had become indifferent to the subject of Reform,
after they had manifested it in a greater manner than
at the present moment. Let the events of Paris fade
from recollection, and let the People of this country calmly
consider the effects of these revolutions in Paris and
Brtissels, and he would venture to say that the excitement
would die away, and then, at any future period, this
country would be in a fitter state to consider of a propo-
sition for amendment in the representative system ; but,
if his Majesty's Government were prepared to advise a dis-
solution of the Parliament, in what state would they put
themselves by giving that advice? From the course the
Government had pursued, he did feel a strong confidence
that, with regard to Ireland, they would have asked from
the Parliament a coercive measure, limited, of course, but
still vesting them with more than the powers they now
possessed. He had not pressed them to ask for the Insur-
rection Act, for, after the experience be had bad, he was
frilly convinced that nothing but absolute necessity could
justify it. He agreed with those who said, that though
that measure might sometimes produce the effect of
tranquillity, it was yet a most unconstitutional measure ;
and wherever sentiments of a pat ticular kind exist among
the body of the people, and those sentiments were thought
to create danger to the State, the remedy for that danger
bad better be entrusted to the usual administration of the
laws, than be provided for in such a manner as to consti-
tute the upper classes the judges of it. Indeed to vest the
power of decision and of action, at such a time, in the
hands of one portion of the people to be exercised over the
rest, so far from diminishing discontent, though it might
seem to effect a cure, left a rankling sore behind, and
had a tendency to perpetuate the evil. Under such
circumstances, he should rather suggest to the Govern-
or the possibility of malting some provision by which
another tribunal could be instituted for the trial
_of
offenders ; but if the Parliament were now to be
dissolved, no such thing could be done. He re-
joiced that the necessity for these Measures did not
seem to exist at present. He knew nothing of the
state of Ireland but what he saw in the public papers,
but what he did see convinced him that the state of so-
ciety in the western parts of Ireland was such as no man
• could look at without a feeling of the greatest sorrow. It
was to be hoped„however, that the permanent laws of the
country, and the powers conferred on the Government by
some existing statutes, would be found sufficient, without
• its being expedient to add to those powers in any
way. If, however, it should be found necessary to have
recourse to extraordinary powers, they certainly ought to
be effective.:lt appeared to him but a misplaced humanity
to let discontent grow to a head, until no authority but a
large military force, or the operation of the Insurrection
Act, was sufficient to put it down. He, having confi-
dence that such a measure would have been produced with-
out going too far, should in that ease have lent his humble
aid to them to extinguish the evil. Would not, he would
ask, would not the general election add to the previously
existing discord? What had taken place inClare? In order to
maintain the public peace it was necessary to station a
military force in the county. That election had taken
place while the present ministry were in office. He was
told that there was nothing political in these disorders ihe
was not of that opinion ; but if it were true, then the
only relief that could be expected was from some change
in the relative conditions of landlord and tenant, and Re-
form could effect no diminution of the evil. Under these
circumstances., be was afraid of the destruction of that
force by which the public peace had been preserved, and
afraid of the circumstance of their being left for six
weeks, at least, without the means of •resoeting to any
extraordinary remedy in case of disorder. He must say,
• that the Ministers who, in such a state of thinge„ advised
a'issolution of Parliament, incurred a heavy responsibility.
„..al that alt?--What would be the immediate effect of
the
woulddinitiution ? The powers they already possessed
he extinguished : by that Act which enabled the
Government to illegal it was pro-
vided, that the
power therehycreated should expire at the
end of the present session of Parliament. That session
disso-
lution of Parliament, would be deter •
ned
break out by the dissolution, and by the disso-
afresahuilehnt, nut only might all the evils of Ireland
from making would' tit the powers now possessed by the Go-
vernmentadditional Powers. On be determined, and they would be pre-
ventedexpressed intention a fresh application to Parliament for
that the dissolution oof7nthteliese grounds he deprecated the
ch had executeda Government. Ile-conceived
which hail scarcely passed Parliament so recently assembled
so little in the publ:c service—
not justifiable.—(H one measure worth recording—
wasJournals of that House r ear, hear.) He found on the
easons assigned against the disso-
lution of Parham whichectipast,e. were so well worded, and were
so applicable to
take the liberty of reediiineeni"2"'
ensuring more attention than was
and
wthiatht the
vsthe;e9ltcl
that
ts
theseusual
were
epaidre
theto wr
ersiot ten documents, he would state

lutions put on record on the Journals of that House it
1807, by the Noble Lord now at the head of the Govern
ment. They were resolutineg entekinning the dissolutior

of Parliament.—(Cheers.) H, ealle:1 on tl em to weig:
well the sentences of the Noble Lord. The resolution,
were moved at the re-as•tembling of Parliament in 1807

They were in these words :—" That. by a lonk; experience
of his Majesty's virtues, we well know it to be hi•
Majesty's invariabl. wish, that all his prerogativ
should be exercised solely for the good of his people."
—( Loud cheering on both sides of the House.) —l-1(
had told them low inueh the words of these resolu

tions demanded their approval. He would now go on :
" That our dutiful attachment to his Majesty's person and
Government obliges us, therefore, most humbly to lay in'
fore him the manifest misconduct of his Ministers—
(Cheers from the Opposition)—in having advised tip
dissolution of the late Parliament, iu the midst of its fir,
Session, and within a few months after his Majesty h o
been pleased to assemble it for the despatch of the urgen•
business of the nation. That this measure, advised la
his Majesty's Ministers, at a time when there existed n
difference between any of the branches of the Legislature
nor any sufficient cause for an appeal to his Majesty',
people, was justified by no public necessity or advantage
That by the interiuption of all private business then de
pending in Parliament, it has been productive of elle,
and needless inconvenience and expense, thereby wantonl
adding to the heavy burdens which the necessities of th
times require. That it has retarded many useful laws I .
,he internal improvement of the kingdom."—(Cheering.;
He doubted much whether this maid be truly said, as hi
feared that no measures for the internal improvement of
the kingdom had ever been introduced ; " and for the en-
couragement and extension of its agriculture, manufac-
tures, and commerce. And that it has either suspended
or wholly defeated, many most important public measures,
and protrac ed much of the most weighty business of Par-
liament, to a season of the year when its prosecution must b,
attended with the greatest public and private inconvenience.
And that we feel ourselves bound still further to submit to lii..
Majesty that all these mischiefs are greatly aggravated by the
groundless and injurious pretences on which his Majesty's
Ministers have publicly rested their evil advises ; pretences,
affording no justification for the measure, but calculated
only to excite the' most dangerous animosities among his
Majesty's faithful subjects at a period when their united
efforts were more than ever necessary for the security of
the empire, and when to promote the utmost harmony and
co-operation amongst them would have been the first object
of faithful and provident Ministers."—(Cheers.) These
resolutions contained the general areuments on the question
of dissolution at such a moment. There were, he repeated,
no such circumstances as now called for a dissolution. He
admitted the necessity of Reform ; but he again denied that
it was an immediate and imminent necessity. He could
not refrain from availing himself of this opportunity of pro-
testing against the contemplated dissolution, and of making
his declaration that Ministers, by resorting to it, incurred,
perhaps, a more serious responsibility than bad been risked
by any previous Government.—(Hear.)
Mr. STANLEY had neither intention nor authority t.;
enter into the discussion ; he, therefore, only lose to re-
mark that there was this difference between the conduct of
Earl Grey in 1807 and the Right Hon. Baronet upon this
occasion. The resolution of 1807 was brought forward
when the dissolution of Parliament was not only announced,
but had taken place, and when those under whose respon-
sibility the step had been taken were ready and at liberty
to justify it. The dissolution had not yet taken place—it
had not been announced, and the lips of the King's ad-
visers were necessarily sealed.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BROWNLOW was not a little surprised that the
complaint against the possible exercise of an undoubted
prerogative of the Crown should come from the other side
of ti.e House, which until now had so stiffly stickled for
its privileges.—(No, no.) Unless he were greatly mis-
taken, such was the effect of what hail been advanced
against a dissolution, for although some care wan taken to
word their advice as delicately as possible, the object was
to deter the,King from resorting to the contemplated ex-
tremity. He was also astonished that Hon. Members who
had opposed the Reform Bill should not be happy to seize
the earliest opportunity of resorting to their constituents;
for throughout the discussion they had constantly vaunted
that they required nothing more than their resistance to
that measure to recommend them to the country : how often
had the boast been heard—" With your Bill in my hand I
will meet those who send me to Parliament."—(hear,
hear.) It was difficult consistently to account for this
change ; but on, perhaps, the last day of the existence of
the present Parliament, it might be convenient to hold
language different to that which had been used at a period
of less immediate peril. For his part, he (Mr. Brown-
low) rejoiced that an appeal was about to bat made to
the people, and lie trusted that the natives of England
would remember, with gratitude, that they owed the Re-
form Bill, as far as it bad gone, to the representatives of
Ireland. He did not deny that Ireland was in a state of ex-
citement as far as great distress was calculated to produce it,
but he did deny that that excitement was even remotely
# 'voted with politics, and the movements in the West
aro:— only out of the wants of the people. There was
now happily an end of all fear of religious warfare—the
feelings which produced it were allayed for ever, and the
people of Inland regarded the Reform Bill as a measure
of civil improvement, calculated to remove the very dis-
tresses of which they complained—as a sure pledge and
guarantee of better Government than they bad experienced
for a melancholy series of years. Of this Ministers might
rest assured, that the measure would receive in Ireland
unanimous approbation.—(Hear.)
Mr. NYSE also bore testimony that no political ex-
citement existed in Ireland, and expressed his conviction
that none would be produced by the Reform Bill and the
consequent dissolution. The Marquis of Anglesea had
done much to satisfy different classes, and to tranquill ze
the public mind, and a general election would be followed
by none of the evils which the other side were so anxious
to predict. The Hon. Member for Waterford had, doubt-
less, great influence; but the source of it was long-con-
tinued mis-government. Put an end to the min-govern-
ment, and the influence would cease as a necessary con-
sequence. As to the threat of commotion, he had no
such fears ; he apprehended no such events as had occur-
red in France ; for ours was an aristocracy, not of name
only, but an aristocracy that lived with the people and
depended upon the people's love.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Had he risen before the Hon.
Baronet (Sir 11. Peel) he should have confined himself to
a few sentences ; having risen after him. it would not be
necessary for him much to extend his observations. Re-
ference had been made to the state of the county of Clare,
and to the troops it had been thought necessary to quarter
in it during the election ; but that experiment of itself
established that political excitement always denominated
illegal outrage ; the soldiers hail not been called upon to
protect a voter in a single instance. The causes of dis-
turbance were very different, and if he were anxious for a
dissolution, it was because it would give to the people of
Ireland a legitimate hope, which would prevent all resort
to lawless violence. Grant Reform, and every chance of
political commotion was removed. It-was highly edifying
now to listen to the Right Hun. Gentleman while he
talked so philosophicagy about the Insurrection Act and
its unconstitutional vices ; but it was singular that these
enlightened views should never have occurred to him dur-
ing the twenty-three years that he had been in office.—
(Hear, hear.) It was very well for the opponents of the
Reform Bill to exclaim, " Do not dissolve ;" but he (Mr.
O'Connell) called upon Government to dismiss the pre-
sent Parliament for the very reason that was urged against
it. A gongs delusion was attempted when it waa said that
the extinction of Fatten boroughs was necessarily to be
translated into a diminution of the number of English
Bill R.
meant Vyyy
toao
Members. This was almost as barefaced as the endeavour
otlfiaatntliiieoßn'efliorairnon was
Baronet (Sir i
n‘cyreeabseel iePvieip) etroy s:111
amid
that upon that ground he had voted against it. In
the pre-
sent enlightened age, a.nd with sttch a talented Press, it
would not be easy to persuade the people of England to be-
lieve that the Reform Bill ought to be rejected for the sake
of protecting them from the encroachmentsof the Roman
Catholic priesthood. Some Hon. Members had g ur ed
that the dissolution ought to be postponed ; but if it were
postponed, what pledge of security would Ministers give
the people of England that they meant hereafter again se.
riously to bring forward the question of Reform—(Mw,
cheering.) He hoped that Minister's would at once advise
the King (and God bless liiml) to appeal 'to the deliberate
good Sense of the people, and to call tipon them to aid in
the abolition of that corrupt system which had already de-
graded Great Britain among the nations of Europe. It
the Poles had been conquered instead of being victorious;
if the barbarous hordes of Russia, having scoured the
north of Europe, even threatened to war upon: England
front the opposite coast of France, still hostilitis ought not
; a dissoktion of
to be commenced withoar ;'Parliament.
h-t in Ireland' such would be the wisest comae,
Suae he was t 4 terminate with and the elections would proceed and . the
moat perfect tranquillity. There was no principle afloat in
Ireland that would not aid the Reform Bill, and
f he trusted
th.t the fifty-nine Members who had voted. ben
increased
of the
Reform Bill, would, by the new elelttoisoen,namenxt.raesasecialnto
eighty.—( Hear, hear.) Grattan, h
wi
ord chancellor `and
nized—Ponaonby, who had been a.
• as Mister of the
Curran, who had di-A1 in obscurity,
brit the measure
Roll's—led the pithdic'ihniil' id trerand;
I
of Reform was muted in the Irish ci s ou eand
1797. The people were driven to despair,
of C in
ommonsthe result

vas the rebellion of 1798. The people of Eoglanr'
sow knew their friends from their enemies, and a
ipportunity ought to be given them of confiding in th,
.ne and rejecting the other. Let Reform be refused
aid he must b a hold man who could prophecy the re
:ult. It might lie well for the Hon. Baronet to talk (1
-he condition of Belgium, and to endeavour to tarnish th.
:lory of the three beautiful days of Paris : hut the,
very still beautiful, when a despotic Monarch was jostle
liastised for having dared to trample on the chartere,
-fights of his faithful subjects.—(Hear, hear.)—Th,
French people did not submit in despicable shivery; thrs
hurled from the throne the man who had insulted them
Should similar circumstances ever occur iii England, h
hoped that the people of England would imitate an ex•
Imph so glorious. Whi!e the present Illustrious Hous,
lacupied the Throne, and above all, while the presery
klonarcli ruled these kingdoms, there was no danger
such a calamity; but suppose an attempt should be mad•
to convert the representative system of England into on
huge rotten borough—suppose the Government too
measures to reduce her in this respect to the state of Scot.
hod, would the people submit? Ought they to submit::
—(Much cheering.) How many vile jobs had bee:
screened—how much dirty huckstering had been en-
couraged—how many individuals, without worth, hat!
been rewarded under the old corrupt system, which mus.
ere long he destroyed? Ministers deserved immortal glory
for the majestic effort they hal made ; and he was sur.
'hat they would be rewarde Iby a grateful people.—
(Hear.) They would dissolve Parliament, saying to thr
nation, " This is a question between us and the borough-
mongers, and the point for you to decide is, whether, is
future, the Government of this country shall be supported
upon antiquated and disgraceful corruptions or upon thr
confidence and affection of its inhabitants."—(o.ntinued
cheering.)
Lord NORREYS expressed his regret that Ministers
had not brought forward a more moderate plan of Refarm,
which nobody could have opposed, and most would have
been glad to support. An appeal to the people, and a
change of Government, were both evils; but if be were
to return to his constituents, he should meet them with
' perfect consciousness of having faithfully disaliarged the
trust reposed in him.
Dr. LUSHINGTON had no doubt, that if Ministers
advised the dissolution of Parliament they would have suf-
ficient grounds for the. course they recommended : if any
doubt were entertained upon the point, the proper time
for discussing it was, after Parliament had re-assembled.
The Right Hon. Baronet had referred to a resolution
moved by the present First Lord of the Treasury twenty-
four years ago, but he had omitted to notice the very cif-
ferent circumstances under which it was brought forward
to those which existed at the present moment. The
torch of religious discord had then been lighted, and no

language could be too strong to reprobate such a proceed-
ing. The Hon. Baronet had also talked of delay, but
this great question, having been once :,rnached, could not
now be postponed without producing disappointment and
even incurring danger. He had likewise spoken of ex-
citement, and had asserted that when the three glorious
d Jys of Paris were forgotten, the public mind would re-
cover its tranquillity. If the Right Hon. Baronet waited
until the l,lorious achievements of those three days were
no longer remembered by the people of England, be would
have to delay until the must splendid events of history
were buried in oblivion.—( Hear, hear.) The victories of
Louis XIV. and the triumphs of Buor.aparte were, com-
paratively. trifling achievemt nts. He verily believed
that there never was a time when the people of England
were better prepared to exercise a sound and deliberate
judgment in the choice of representatives; and during
the last six months only, a great change had been
visible in the opinions entertained within the House ; so
man now ventured to deny the necessity of such Reform.
Even the Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Vyvyan) was in favour.
of-some change in the representation, although he had, as
a last effort, endeavoured to fan the dying embers of reli-
gious discord, and to light the beacon of " No Popery,"
which had burnt with such fury in 1807. lie (Dr.
Luslinigton) trusted that in these more enlightened days
the people would not be so easily duped and misled. They
bad approved of Catholic Emancipation—(No)—they had
rejoiced in the abolition of the Test Acts—(No)—and the
designing would discover that they had no power to work
upon ancient prejudices. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
R. Peel) had adverted to the state of Ireland, as if there
Were even now a danger of rebellion ; but dissolution,
when the object of it was to carry the n easure of Reform,
would rather tend to produce tranquillity than disturb-
ance. Time had shown the impossibility of conducting

public affairs effectively and prosperously upon the old
system of corruption; and nothing could now give satis-
faction but representatives chosen by the people, and res-
ponsible to the people. To establish corruption by sepa-
rate instances was as unnecessary as it was invidious, or he
would point to a borough which, every seven years, had
regularly produced a Commissioner of the Customs. It
the King's Ministers advised his Majesty to dissolve Par-
liament, he should consider it a measure denoting courage
—(Cheers)--courage befitting so good a cause —(Counter
cheers)—and which could only be inspired like that of
Parlia►nentary Reform. It was because there was no
chance of carrying the Bill u ithout dissolution, that dis-
solution would be resorted to—bestause the measure was

_of vital importance--and because the people universally
desired it. On all sides of the House it was now adinitt, d
in the words of Mr. Pitt, that without Reforin no honest

man could could continue Minister of the country.
Mr. S. G. PRICE said, that as the Members of that
House had been told that they were incapable of discharg-
ing their duty to the nation, he would remark that it was
rather too hard and ungrateful for the gentlemen opposite
to tell the House that they had placed them in their pre-
sent places, that it was constituted .n such a manner as to
render it impossible for an honest Minister to carry on the
business of the country. There were one or two obser-
vations which be then desired to make, as it was, perhaps,
and probably he was then addressing the House for the
last time.—(Loud cheers ) He thanked gentlemen oppo-
site for the eagerness which they manifested to get rid of
one who had never been connected with any party, and
had never supported any interest but that of the errantry
at large.—(Hear.) When he heard that cheer, so civilly
and significantly given, he was reminded that a short time
ago he was greeted with a very different cheer, when lie
presented himse:f on the hustings before his constituents.
He was reminded that he had been honoured with five
different votes of thanks from one thousand of his eonsti-
tuents, for his conduct in that House,—(Hear.) If he
were now to retire from public life, he would carry with
him a gratifying remembrance as well of the cheer which
he had received from gentlemen opposite, as of that very
different one which be had' lately received from his honest.
and independent constituents.—(Cheers.) lie had heard
much said that evening respecting France and the three
beautiful and glorious day} of July—(Hear)—since
which, however, ke would remind the House, France has
been a prey to anarchy, with a weak Government and a
distracted people. He would ask gentlemen who were so
fond of attending to that country, what was the opinion
of M. Msuguin, the leader of the republican party, tts tq
the discontent of the people? Would he not say that
their hatre4 to the Government was occasioned In its
being friendly to peace and to England ?—(Cries of " No,
no !" and " Yes, yes !") If he might quote a classical sen-
tence upon that subject, he should say, that the " trophies of
Waterloo would not allow those men to sleep."—(Cheers
and cries of " No.") M. Mauguin hr 44 himself ai:initted
that the movement of July had been provoked, not so much
by the ordonnances as by the hatred of the 1 e.tple to the
house of Bourbon. Those commotions were the working
of a conspiracy, which bad been on foot for years, and em-
braced all the disaffected of every country in Europe.--
(Hear, hear.) The present would not be the first instance
of the dissolution of the British Parliament beiiause it had
refused to sacrifice the constitution.—(Loud cheers.)
So far as he personally Was concerned, it was utterly in-
different to him whether the dis'solution should tril,4
or nof. The duties of Parliesnieravry 'attendance were in-
convenient to a man in weak health. But he should feel
disgraced if, with the threat of dissolution held over
his
head, he did not stand forward to give (as Mr. Pitt hail
said) " his mite of service to that side of the Constitution
which needed it." Serious and awful was the situation in
which, the country was now placed.---(hear and a laugh.)
Whoever chou;el look back over the pages of history, and
then carefully examine the crisis which the country had
new reached, and the probable effects of the Bill, he must
say with him—
_ " Venit summa dies, et inebrutabile tempos."

(Cheer..) " We stand in the eleventh hour of the Con
stitution."—(Cheers and laughter.) He would tell 110".,
Gentlemen opposite, in sober sadness.—( Cries of " oh. oh,
and order.) Yes; they were on the brink of revolution.
(Cheers.) Hr did not thi.7lk shat any change of dynast)
wouldtfot `revuiutfOn comparable to that which would bt
produced by the proposed Reform, destroying as it wool,:
the balance of the several powers of the State.—(Cheers.)
ha all former changes, which left that balance undisturbed, it
wrong were done or disorders were produced, hand'
which had created the evil lmti 7;lways Oeen able to effect
remstly, like thi., idbired ?Tear': the alchymist, whicr
could heal the wounds', it hnd it flitted., Experience hal'
proved thatpopular power, when once granted, never li
the history of man'eould be controrticd by any other an-
thority,—(eheers.) He bad heard niveh declamation,
which the übject was to show that the close boroughs welt
the most disgraceful parts of the Contitutiun ; and he hat

heart other declarations, velich lie could hardly believs•'
would :have fallen from men who had studied the Consti-
tution.—(Hear, hear.) It had been often said, in the
course of that debate, that time was the greatest innovator
but he would ask what changes had been effected in tlo
Constitution of this country since the revolution, to whirl
the Reform measure bore an analogy? Had not thos,
changes at least been slow and gradual in their operation
Had not the power of that House been constantly, thou2l
tradually, increasing ? The influence of the commercia'
dlasscs had increased as the wealth and commerce of th,
country increased. And would any man deny, that i❑
commercial country the democratic spirit always increase,
with the growth of commerce, while the agricultural—
hat is, the aristocratical—lnfluence as constantly declines?
—(Cheers.) Every country in the world which in aro
age became greatly commercial became also democratical
because the persons of whom that class was composed, it,
all countries, never have any regard for hereditary honout s
and are naturally jealous of hereditary power. As they
ise from obscurity to the influence which necessarily at-
taches to wealth, they endeavour to overthrow that pow,r
from which they are excluded. He should, therefore, re-
mind the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, before they attempted
the Reform which they proposed, to make this one Reforte
mere—to cure man of all his weakness ; and when they
'hould have made him an angel, they might then pass that
Bille—(Cheers and laughter.) It had been said that
this House was not predominant in the State ; but he
would ask, was not its power over the Crown rendered ir-
resistible by its controul over the supplies ? Was not the
House of Lords a body possessed of less wealth, less info •
ence, and less dominion than the Commons? He was
sorry not to see in his place an Hon. Gentleman who had
said that there was in the other House a more popular feel-
ing than in that? ,Was it wise then to render the House
more independent still, when it was already so much more
powerful than the other? When the great Roman histo-
rian and philosopher contemplated such a Constitution as
England had since that time acquired, he thought it im-
possible that such should ever be found, in consequence of
the natural disposition of one class to aggrandise itself at
the expence of the other. Mr. Hume, however, said, that
England had the good fortune practically to contradict the
great philosopher, because the House of Lords had a pre-
ponderating influence over the House of Commons. Could
that influence then be preserved without the boroughs,
which had been made, in the course of that discussion, the
subject of so touch idle jest.—(oh, oh; and a laugh.)—
by men who never loved the Constitution.—(Cheers and
laughter.) He wished that influence to be preserved, in
order to prevent the preponderance, by which the mace
upon the table would be converted into an Imperial sceptre.
--(Cheers from both sides of the House.) He would see
as much reason in the disfranchisement of a large town,
on account of its extent and population, as in the disfran-
chisement of a small borough, because its extent was not
great, nor its population numerous, when it had honestly
and usefully exercised its franchise.—(Cheers.) He
wished every class of the people to b• represented in that
House, and he did not wish the safety of all classes to be
endangered by the undue preponderance of one. Should
the scheme of Reform be ever carried into effect, that
House would be filled by men of immense wealth on the
one hand, and by the panders of popular caprice on the
other.—(Cheers on all sides.) But it would be thence-
forth impossible for any member of the middle cliss (of
which he, Mr. Price, was one) to obtain a place in that
House, unless he were trained in the school of subser-
viency to the popular will ; and, in his mind, subserviency
to large bodies of people was the worst habit in which a
statesman or legislator could be reared. He considered the
Ministerial Bill a presage of the last day of that Consti-
tution to which every Liver of liberty in any country in
the world turned with admiration—(Cheers)—though
disgraced as it was said to be by those rotten boroughs.—
(Cheers.) A Noble Lord opposite had said that the
Crown and the Aristocracy would be cherished and pro-
tected by a popular Ilouse of Commons. Was not the
Noble Lord aware that a popular assembly must always be
under the controul of the most violent of its members ?
History had furnished many proofs that a representative
assembly purely popular and a monarchy could not exist
together.—(Cheers.) From the assembling of a popular
Parliament in the reign of Charles the First, to the death
of that King, the Gown vainly struggled to use its
powerless prerogative, and to maintain its existence. At
first the Parliament proceeded cautiously, but at length
bolder men succeeded, and the usurpation of Cromwell
was the result.—(Cheers ) He would, therefore, cau-
tion the I-lon. Gentlemen opposite, that they too would
be followed by bolder men, who would lead to similar re-
sults.—(Great cheering.)
44

Facilis descensus Averni:
Noctes atque dies patet atri janua Ditis :
Sed revocare gradual, superasque evadere ad auras,
Hoc opus, Inc labor est."
It was because he wished to preserve that order to which
the Nob:e Lord opposite belonged, that he deprecated this
measure of his Noble Friend, if he might use that appel-
lation in recollection of former friendship at Cambridge.
The time might come when the Noble Lord would remem-
ber, that a member of the middle class had. in his rt.-
gard for the Aristocracy of the country, suggested that this
Crom-
well had found himself unable to controul a popular roainnd-
,iir.iarscafdouunpdoninethifieoCaooinosutsi.tuti,ornhaheaedvbeielenthme audrebiintralr6ys4C,
Par-
liament. Look to Spain, in which, as long as a popular
constituted Cortes existed, it was every thing, and the
King nothing. They. who would build up a new Consti-
eniaxarcittie°pG7clennerai i
and that to make the people the base would be to place
Crowntutkn. wassh''utlldi ebbeaasre i In' pnioni nidv htiFeeh wtohredsCoofnßstui trukteio'nthat tlirested,e
the pyramid upon its aprx.--(Clieers.) As that might be
the last speech which he should have an opportunity of
making in that House, he would neat his caution to the
Noble Lord, got to give thu fieumeraey a preponderance,
whereby the Monarchy would be changed into a demo-
crude royale, the Crown king first placed on the head of •
a representative Sovereign, controuled by the more suc-
cessful of the struggling factions, which should divide the,
people, until
daetslpeuntgiothotiimcnive.il.„....w(acrhwee7,l:)l place a military
They ought at
leela'isetftuopeocnotammiie the evils, and not pass at once to a re-
volution greater than any change of dyn sty had ever
effected in this country.—(The Hamgoaniiin.isiGti,ewnhiteilieenhbleattnih,s:apitnid.oeostsivoennd
amidst great cheering Irons all sides.)
etesacaalltd:tir;iinii:*l;interirieddling with long-settled inter-
Sir TH OMAS Ad,ChLsAt
INligDht,sawital,B
directed.
tiet:votHinegthagoaoignisitt
theoiv;lre;
:e:
proposed:gi sru secondiail,niac b,e.
iris
tti9oofnthtaloTf the Members of that House, a
Obvious expediency. He,
to he disturbed,
component:,
he
evohniclaly
roeuggrl:tttedneovneer
oeutonf,:t:mhpLteeyed by his Majesty's circumstance by
therefore, egnrtTlien;ylscoofri:iirPrer in the the resolution of the Gal-
representing any person who voted for it :Is an
which it was attended—that was, that it gave an openingto all Refiirrn.-olear.) Even if the reolntion
Gallant General had been carried igto effect, and
cigveroment, the principle of
Reform would aill'haVe been secure ; but he differed
olaialidinbgeefnortl:ieloußtmiltstthweannthoo.ficeoAinsitidLeraldopuoln.
~0
c„3O from those who supported disfranchisement for
Itc:
own sake, nor could he let pass that opportunity of de,
supporters would force it
upon the 11,:)rio rind the country, before there was any-
ai
ent and
o n importance,thatit,.o;,laiindhec,molptlexi
ttiing Lke that time for consideration which a measure of
sctc'ila,jarningn:li'm:t:liseitYriete Bill.
gfunliltucdoenv
mantled. He certainly voted for Refotm, brit he itid so
dangeroustde-
to push Reform bseeill - • ••
.., , vary moderate limits indet-d.
Brouzlit tip, as & had been,
political life, at the feet of one of the roost elos--kuent men
who had ever adorned that Ho
. 0..
hie
Ile c),121,d never • fail to
ieceive, as the chief • glpq .i. hip ecgdget aeon the subject
of Reforin, the 13
SC::: thmea
that entineivi ir,4llPg\larcc g w;-;ielA tie heard from the lips of
everence the Constitution of your
fathers, and if 1,-;"
beever attempt to alter or amend it,
let that alteratio-riu
you
!emmenced by no rash innovat-
ing hand, lest incur the loss of that I.:•Actisiog
which it ought to be your constant ei.,tl.;:-ti,vour to pre-
serve uninjured."—
H
sentiments ---11,,e4 he ,''‘'''':...., koav,). '.
Those were the
'ever held in veneration, and from
which he'
v
could, undr no circumstances, be induced to
depart. Not that he was
otherwise than a Refortne;., for
the present times, e feared, deaRI,A some change.
What did they findul ' 1i
in
our,iov; the 'Jist two or three years? In
the minds of the most sober men there had been during
that period a '
would not growms dbt, whether, sooner or later, it
become necessary to enter into the vestion of
Reform. The events of the late genera) election could not
but be fresh in tlie, recollection a Iltm. Members; for his
• part, he would lc
without
dissatisfaction upon the course
which he himself "
pursued upon that occasion, because he
could with perfect
r. truth say, that he made no compromise
of feeling or of
period to whieliPhit.neaTlie. But when he renierobill the
in
connection
with he
.t‘det.l, be erl-'1 7:10i but remember,
,nterfery j.,,, poi
iti , 1 foe,' ~..et, that Men not accustom d to
to—lnen Of the most sober modes of
thinking, When
extreme of asked what should be done tr,•. j-irtivzot the
Reform, -replied ,i sot; Cc. Jiii
j '-
--"
are." lie would, 'statement
s apd.whece you
observation on car tint :Ftlltux up tl4t statement by any
i g'iO4 tg what had occurred in both
Parliament Houses of a
since they hal assembled, further
clan this, that
n°tiling
had occurred during the whole
period of their
:hatkitting, which did not most distinctly pr,ovv
a change had taken place in the f.Filt:it of the times.
Ailinitting that lie
n i., . -
1-hs sheil Ise istiert why he hesitated

'n conot Hug at once all that Reformers demanded, h•
would reply, that he was a young Reformer, and, therefor•
naturally cautious, and susceptible of alarm, averse from
treat and rapid change. With these feelings, how was 1,
brought to regard the present Bill—a Bill so entirely on
expected, not looked for by any class in the cemmunity—
a Bill the least in the world calculate Ito effect that gradual
temperate, and judicious Reform, by which hr, and thus:
who thought with him, were to be converted ; however, b.
rejoiced that he had had an opportunity of delivering hi
:entiments upon the occasion of the second rending, were i
oily for the sake of proving his sincerity. He should nos,
come to a subject which supplied, as he conceived, jus
4round of complaint—of complaint against his Majesty'
Ministers, for the situation in which they placed the int],
pendent Members of that House. It was unreasonable i,
my set of men to come down to that House with a mea
ore so complicated, and give the House only six weeks
consider of its details—a measure demanding such nicet.

of arrangement, instead of six weeks, to he considered, fo
six months. It was really too hard upon those who de
dared for the principle of the measure, to he called on t
support its details at the short notice of six weeks—it wa
dealing with them too stringently to say, when they hesi
tated respecting some of its provisions, that the Govern
anent would have the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing be
the Bill. It had not unfrequently been the practice of ar
Administration to stake their existence upon the fate of •
ainde measure. That might not perhaps be qui'e so con
venient in a Reformed Parliament. The present Ad►ni
nistration, however, had staked the fate of the roeasui,
upon the result of the question raised by the motion of th
Gallant General the Member for Liverpool, while, in point
of fact, it meant their own fate.—(Loud cheers.) The•
told the House that they would go out unless they had th,
Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. Nothing
in his mind, could be more unreasonable than to object t
the Bill merely on the ground of a proposed change being
made to the extent of preventing a reduction in the Men.
bets of that House originally contemplated. That, he really
thought, had nothing to do with the principle cf the mete
sure ; yet, the moment it was adopted by the House, Govern-
'Dent came down and declared that the whole character of
the measure was changed,and that they would appeal to the
people. He confessed he could not look upon such a state o:
things otherwise than with regret. There was nu independent
Member in that House who was not interested in seeing
a strong Government, for he really believed that most of
the difficulties with which the country had to conten4
arose from the want of a strong Government ; and h.
hoped that a reformed Parliament, whenever they had one,
would confer upon the country that blessing, though Iv
could scarcely venture to anticipate such a result. H
begged to call the attention of the House to a reinaik made
by the Attorney-General in the course of the discussions
on the Reform Bill. He asked, " Had there ever be' ii
any great principle without compromise or without
sacrifice ?" That might be perfectly true—he believe d
that no Cabinet had ever been formed without sacrifices ;
but when the present Cabinet was formed, lie thougl.t
they ought to have come down to that House, and
am,cahlv entered into a discussion of the question of
Reform. In his opinion the Government ought to have
been content to take in the way of Reform such conces-
sions as a majority of that House was disposed to give
them, and not make matters of detail a point of bonout.
The mere concession of the principle. of Reform would
have been hailed by the refoimers as a viotory ? and such
changes might afterwards be introduced as the course of
events rendered necessary. He voted for the second lead-
ing of the Bill on the principle of conceding some change;
but surely to have voted for the proposition of the Gallant
General ought not to be imputed to any gentleman as pro-
reeding from a wish to defeat the Bill. The Hon. Baronet
concluded by expressing his full persuasion that when the
present delirium had time to subside, he was sure that a
much more sober measure of Reform would be matured,
He had always avowed himself a moderate reformer ; and
if those were the last words which he abould have an op-
portunity of uttering in th it House, he would say that he
did not repent having always adhered to that declaration.

Sir JOHN JOHNSTONE addressed the House for a
few minutes ; but conversation among the Members was
so general, and conducted in a tone so elevated, that not a
sentence which fell from the Hon. Baronet was audible in
the gallery.

FVLEft said, that he voted against the motion of
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Liverpool, l ecause he
did not wish the measure should go into the Committee in
any degree shackled—not that he went the whole length
of the Bill. As to his voting for the second reading, he
did so as well from his favourable feeling& towards the
principle of Reform, as from an eanest desire at the least
to see the rotten and nomination boroughs di,franchised.
The Hon. :Member concluded by declaring, that although
it was a favourite argument of the opponents c,l the Reform
Bill that it must produce revolution, in his opinion their
continued and violent resistance. to the wishes of the people
were much more likely to bring about that catastrophe.
When the lion. Member sat down there was a loud and
genoral cry for

- Mr. A. BARING, who commenced b) observing, that
as the House was likely to be indulged with no further
discussions on this most important subject, be was anxious
to say a very few words ; and the more so, as the Mem-
bers were about to be sent to their constituents, under cir-
cumstances which required that their conduct should he
fully understood. He might, perhaps, subject himself to
the ridicule of some of the gentlemen on the Ministerial
side of the House, when he avowed now that he had at all
times been a moderate Reformer. He had been at all
times willing io give, and had at all times voted for givins
a anare in the representation to those large and populous
towns which had in the progress of tirno and by the in-•
crease of trade and manufactures, grown up in this country,
and he had been willing tn. Carisent to such a degree of
disfranchisement of tLe decayed and corrupt boroughs as
might be required to give effect to that change. He had,
he repeated, been at all times a friend to the improvement
of the representation, but he had at the stnne time always
maintained that they could commit no greater or mote
fatal error than to render that House the perfect organ of
the popular will, end to make its Members, a'though
avowedly At liberty to exercise freedom of opinion, yet so
much the image acting under the controul of those who
sent them to that House, that they would Le liable the
next morning to receive a notice to quit such as that
which had just been served on his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Southwark,,-Okar, hear, and a laugh.) He
would tell that House and the country, that they would
bitterly rue the day when its Members were thus converted
into the mere tools of popular opinion. --(Hear, hear.)
The question of Reform was to be considered iu two dif-
ferent points. The first was to be considered with refer-
ence to the proportions to he preserved between the three
estates of the Constittation, and the second with respect to
the different interests which that House was intended to,
retr;esetiti He maintained that the people of this vountrif
were not as much from wisdom as front eltaat,* and eirl
cumstances placed, by the blessing of Providence, in a
situation in every respect the twat "oalculated to secure the
integrity of those klAreg estates, and to secure the preservas
tion of thoxit s.,lp4rate interests.—(Hear, hear.) if, how-
ever he was t Id that the three estates could stand on
their sole and separate strengths, independent of each
other, he denied it most positively.—.(Hear, hear, hear.)
Every page of their history proved, that although nomi-
nally equal, thoe three estates were closely blended in their
powet.o , and he was confident, that if the House of Cona-
mons ever became the pure and unalloyed organ of the people
—that llouse of Lords, which now held its head so high,
and which had acted such an illiktrions part in the pre-
servation u{ the libertie.,a of this country—which had, in
truth, laid the grounds o$ al the freedom they at present
enjoyed—that House of Lords would sink into
canes before the giant power of the daily-increasing influ-
ence of the Ilouse which emanated, cloactly from the
people. They would, it was tree, have three nominal
equal ett.ites ; but it Mould be the contest of the giattt
and the dwr,r; Sheoretieally of the same power, hist 7.3}1y
poss.;,ssing the relative strength of such a ditTesence• and
1 the Monarch would not rule, but the Hoiaaie of Commons;
and the Government would Litteeri.o not only a democracy,
but a democracy the moikt perfect that ever existed in the
An Honourable Baronet Walntained,
in reierenee to that subject, that the Crown wcaild always
possess the veto on all the Acts el- 4e Commons. He de-
tried the force of that VgAsitent, The power of the
Crown, in suealr, mattyrs was twminal. Theoretically the
King might possess such a power, but what was it in
practice ? He did not know what the people might, in
time, be brought to bear ; but he contended th4t the veto
was, at the present, a mere illusiou„. &opposing, for in-
stance, that the Lords wery driven to such a pass, that
thgirass was either extended or considered of little
consequence
did any one suppose that the could re-
fuse his assent to a measure which w*.a 'iokeed ov hitn by a
purely popular House of cr,m,rtkrese.a.?-,-.(Hear, hear.) The
,King i f this cotm.,tz,k wer4,1;1,, in effect, possess less power
`than the President o( tike States of America.—(Cheers.)
1 He
ratified
manner.
stvhlAeri treaty
aillustrated(i,iwbere
itbihyci st;:;,;r:dt b
the President between America and 1114.. cc,.tsubrietcryo,utaitcridi
aavgne;yeeSd and
einate. It was rscessari, however, to pass a
Bib
through the ceslaVe, and on its being sent down to the
. Low lious, they debated on it for twenty-one days, and
the opposition huvin4 called for further papers., they succeed-
ed in carrying the motion by a tarty niajerity. A message
was, of course, sent kg tI '%,;food. the papers; and what din

‘tat..
the House Kipp se was the answer of the g"fient?'
.Vashington, be it recollected, no trifling frienil of taltrty •
ind free institutions---(Hear)—wbv, thet the House 'Jai I
tithing to do with the papers—that their co Ittnts wer
nothing to them—that the power was with h m to mad e
be
t
testy, and that they should have no papers 'room hit .i•
ilar
wasn aa h:.ri, .le. part icleat
were the result?
t lt,toy 1
,e Cllr.going) bilotll like to see the Minitttr orroid
eivise the King of this country to retort. !inch an answer
o a demand of the Bi i'ish W.'s' of C"molona.—(t ',beers.)
In theory, he repeated, the King .night have time!, rive, of
•efusing Lis assent to the demands of that house; twit if
'itch a reply had been made, or such it !evilest re to
e quite hear.)
s"2lisfileVd,ha at ad
that House, I e believed there was net a man i i it. who
vou'd not have cried rut egaitot it as m gross e tertote of
relogative.—(Hear, hear.) They had been tole; That the
Reforms Rill wits to restore the Constitution to iteertginal
rarity; but none of those Who said so comieso.eoded tot elf
them at what reel, d that existed.—(Hoer, betr.) They
did not mention the time. They colthi not place Veit;
amino Domini in the recite period wh< 0 twat per-Ft:teem
exitted.—(Hear, hear.) They had now been for tree:anis
of two hundred tears under the winking of tioe pri,sent
Isnot, and those who advocated the pr/ sent !Measure Were
bound to point out those instances of tmppre m ssion, ot_
eoverninent, and destruction of national property, of
which such a period must produce tottn;terless examples,
before they went into that wide field of Consritufien
making, into which they were now disposed to lead the
House. Sonic persons, to be sore, who were fond of
theories, declared that the eew Constitution was most
beautiful, and anticipated from it the greatest benefits;
but lie confessed he should prefer before they tried that its
advocates would slow how they suffered under the old
one. It had been, he admitted, bar.died about in ell ante--
6,AR; that the Members of that House took time niece), out
of the pockets of the people, and wesited :he sett:tome, of
the nation on their friends and dependents ; now, he should
wish to know the eentiemen of ilea Hiorta 0e,,, not
should like those whim m mole
pie
the y t
lratctices. lle dill not mean to siajteysi 'ss:u:nelee
old sinecures of twenty years' atanding• and not tot worn
out, in the possession 01 Member, of that House; but he
defied any one to name a. Place other than those he tole
mitted which was enjoyed by any of time Members of that
House, and fur which he did not perform sufficient duty.
With the exception of the Great Olcicers of State (not
half eimough paid), and some of the Oflic ra of the Am my
and Navy, whose emolumenta no man grad,ted, ha celled
on those persons to name a single individual who had of
late years received a sinecure allies, or who was receiving
pay without efficient service.—(Hear, hear.) If they
could not name any such, then he would say they had not
required the force of it regenerate) Home of Commons to
carry into tffect all plans of economy and r,trenciament.—
(Cheers.) There hail been upwaids et •14,110 utibsic ott.
Ikea re,duc,d or retrenched in the caorse rf a few short
years..—(Hear, hear.) He hapornul to here been Chair-
man of a Committee which tut on Puidie Salariet, and he
believed he might say three was ram Otto: allovee•I to exist
notwhich did
hemn Ciefftlll:antni-lato't.feeet)olo-(rfri and e ci
serf
duty;tlacl)
their constituents, there was not a ielai'e in the kingdom
in which they would not hear it thrown at the Members
of that House, in tome way or m ther, that they sup-
ported useless places and an extrava4ont expenditure,
to the injury of their coostifin n's and the destruction
of their own character. 0: all the Leeithourea in the
world, be would say, nevertheless, that ...net M this
country was the hest; and of all the Vile and dirty
jobs that ever were conceived or executed, that of
the Government of deuntertieuea O'tS rime vilest seal the
worst.—(01w10•) HC Leto-1116 that be challenged those
who accused the House of mean practices to lay their
finger on the individual who was guilty of them, or on
the to-loons who received hope/Ter favours. No. one could
say that thoao who served the Govet oment in the higher
offices of State did so for time money it breught thtm—.
(Hear)—for no one could hold such an office, even hie a
year, without being the poorer for the pcsaestion of in
lie admitted there had been abuses of it t. loess deectiption,
butally sincediaia,tishheitt;go,muinaittitliohne tim,feitilett:.etti he mieht cliallatere the
war they had tm.„
production of a single ease of kind w hich were then
numerous and nototious. IT.p to the end of the late war,
the public accounts were Itept in such a ntaminer, that none
but a few of the clerks of time public Offices could uuderstund
them, and they very imperfectly. He remembered, indeed,
that the Member for MittilksL..x (Mr. Hume) o r on the
Ministetial aide of the House, and v: as silent On time smito.
inet of those abuse, and extravagaveiem, for the exposure
of which he has since become celebriited. feud wby
was he so ? Because the nature of the exoctimitture and
the public accounts, and the war itself rendered such
inquiries almost hopeless ; hut, since the cominetwe-
ment of the peace, so zealous has beta the inquiry, and
so rigid the economy practised in every I,foot:it of the
public expenditure, and the accounts of every branch of the
service are stated SO plainly and perspicuously, that he de-
fied any man to point out the instance in which public
money was corruptly misapplied.—(Hear.) The lien.
Baronet, the Member for the county of Devon (Sir T.
Acland), had that night explain d the reason of his con-
duct on the Refornt Bill, in u manner so manly, straittlit-
forward, and honourable, that he (Mr. litemg) very touch
mistook the nature aml character of Englishmen, it, after
such an explanation, he could be ill received by imiS coo-
stituentto That Hon. Barmier. had corm plenoei of the
coucee pursued towards the framers of toe Itelertn Bill,
and be (Mr. Baring) must agree wish that no i-h muse
of Commons had ever hi re been treated so nemeotattete;,y
by the Ministers of the Crown.—(Clit;:ers.) A measure
of the greatest—the must vitt! inmpm,rtr.nc%, to evert- cl.asa
in the country—one on which theme were, of course, anti
very naturally, a great variety of opinions—exciting the
surprise, by its provisions, oteven the most tilna-returament,
was thrown tin the table of the House by the Covet etueot.
They threw the Bill on the table—a 13111 of such compli-
cated detailt, and involving such ext'nsive iroereeta;
but it was not fur the consideration or examination of that
House.—(Cheers.) No. They were not to teueh a wont
of it.—(Hear.) They (the Ministers) were aft et itdonte
They could make no mistakes —(Cheers.) Toere teas the
Bill. That House, a deliberative atsemblyt wee net to de_
liberate on that which of all others concerned them most
nearly. They were to take the Bill as it was presented to
thetn......to take it as they found it—and if they and 1 not
like it, why then they were ordered to go about 'their bo-
sineas.—(Loud and coutiotted cheering.) Ho challenged
any man to produce any case, or lily time in which. a
House of Conunona had been presented with such a propo-
sition, and treated in Kiehl a menner fear daring to exer-
cise its constitutional privilege tit ea:aminetion and inquiry
ioto the merits of its principles audits cletails.—((;oceret.)
Speaking of the Bill itself, he should like to he two how the
Crown was to find a place for its officers in that House ?
He might• be told through popular representation. But
supposing that the Crown found it neecteamy to fight a
battle with popular prejudive. What would be the (moose-
quenee? Anti supposing that the Crown is to have no
power to oppose the prejudices and the impulses of the third
estate, and that the most tickle of the three—of what use
was the Crown ?—(Cheers.) If, !however, it be ion nded
that the Crown should have syrvarna t i support its
interests, how were they to get into that Howe ; and
when iu, how were they to retain their seats ? He was
not aware of any clause in the 1!;e1 wi jell gave the King's
servants an ear-officio power. to sit in thet i;ialte, as in
France, either \vith or willout a vote; fool hoer, thtu,
was the King's cosiness to be conducted ?—( Hear.) They
would have three who had taken an oath to their Sove-
r4n to keep his commands and auiport his interests,
looking, not to the fulfilment of their pledge or to the elms-
charge of their duty, but to the opinioo of the people and
to totat probable consequences of their actions on tic feel-
ings of o
their constituents at the nee; elecon.—(lleat.)
The effect of such a state of thiega might be coati) fore-
seen, although those who talk themcticmlty, bet wildly, on
such matters, would lead them to he:lieye that the popular
voice wou'd always give way or be pettedly in todsont
with justice on all urgent acid trying occasions. it Was
scarely possible to believe that men coon be tetioust who
:olvanced such arguments. Why, act the treat bleeders
and follies of the Governtnent of this country were com-
mitted at the sour, of popular mlt rumor. To go no tar-
ther back, he would rneution the Convention 01' Cintra
as an evidence of popular ful:y and demsain. 'lien
there was more recently the religious qucttion wiila re.
spect to Ireland, cu which the popeier opiomon was de-
cidedly expresaed.—(hear, ke tr.) Ha toigi.t meotion as
a third the West India question, on totnela there prevails
so ranch of error and misappreheitsitnt—(Hear)-eamid List,
though not least, he might mention by way of thusteation,
and without meaning the al..ighte.it ()Luce to his Learned.
Friend, the Attornoy,•cr,earral, the• case of art Illustrious
Client of his, whill-had h, en wholly sutured and sup-
ported hg ttotaular opinion.—(Cimemoto)—lt teas the force
of thio public opittion and its cm...esp.:no:tit taimeoets, moo,
}restlessness, and fickleness that ire ilatiog) duttt.dlll
!from the experiment of, the Government. At time per-em :
eatatt moment that Il hail just power ettottali tel tedale,rL.
Well and to act cautiously, imitlependeitt timei,:retw,..;
voice; but not power enouttch to resitc ,
and it was this union—..this perfection of („AL
pop ,e .o
of action, and yet of sympathy
°tiered them,
.lilt he preferrett to that whici'nw;Ze we„o„„t ef tee etoo
doubty.l mach wheelie., , devewducethemanythirig iXt4er
varrnuent--(4 laugh)--cuoi p