The Sun.
London, England, 1813-03-24 00:00:00

waici seemed to tontradict th al:

. e
lee:l'Al e the ecientnisaionere, had been-rkstroyeds-•ee
He, believed that Mrs. Lisle, ill no. pert of her pee
. .
per, ntrempted.a fahricatien, There waS he:creel
evidence that she had no real intention, beceuse
in One part she declinedevriting winit she had some
feet may not be Correct. -11 c Would he Sorry to
:;ly any thing that could give paiti to the Noble
Lord (Ellenborough) whOM he should he proud
to call his friend, but justice demaaded it from
hiiti, and if the matter were to recur again, he
would pursue the same course that Ise shad: before
taken. Onder these circumstances, he threw him-
self 'upon the justice of the House.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said he- would Duly make
one observation on what lent fallea from t::c host.
Gentlethan. He stated:, that if the matter were
to recur again, he would pursuethe same course
he Ipul before taker), and that he did notthibk
himself imposed upon with respect to the 'paper.
He would ask him whether he considered it con-
sistent with his duty to read 'ant depositions if they
were not the depositions as taken before the
'Commissioners ?-' It would be a strange pervere
sion, if mer:erecollection of what occurred .before
a Court werceto be set up against former deposi-
tions, ancbset up, in derogation Of the judicial
character. He knew the lion. Gentleman would
not maintain such a principle; he must therefore
say, that be had been imposed, upon, otherwise
be would not have read the paper. . --He was sorry
that he had not made the communication to his
friend (Sir S. Romilly) before he produced the
s, .....se. document. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would
J. P: Grant, Esq.
._....., 'msg. ' Lord Vis. Kirkwall, admit that it was at least a failure in prudence to
J. Astley, -- Eastaott, Esq. set up such a document against former depositions.
W. Cwirtena,-, Eiicii . Mr. WLI ITBR EA n said, that when be had read
the paper, he thought the questions and answers
were taken down at the time they were put, and
when the .paper WaS put into his hands it was
stated to him that SLICK was the fact ; but to say
PRINCESS OF WALES. that Mrs. Lisle was guilty of fabrication, or diet
an imposition was practised upon hint, he denied
Mr. WHITtREAD begged leave to state to the
it. H e did not intend to derogate from the Com-
House the sequel of the penceeding. which took
miseioners, but he expressed his surprise that the
place yesterday. In .consequence 'of ihe paper
questions had been put, as they Were represented,
which he bad read lest week, and which .he stated
. by Lord Erskine. ,
to contain the questiOns and answers pot to Mrs. .
, Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that in what he 'Bari
Lisle, before the Commissioners, sonic false re-
Stated bus merely alluded to a general principle.
presentations had gone abrOad respecting the Man- '
ner in which be had used that 'paper. lie would Sir" Minnie PiGoT did not wish eo prolong eo
beg leave to remind the House that at that time he, painfule. subject, but he must say, that there was
did not vouch for its authenticity, but he then-- an irregularity itt the productiort of a peper to
lieved it to be authentic.. He stated that a cooPy which the fippellation of evidence could not be-
had been published in the Vipers, which he heard long. He was sorry hie Hon. Friend (Mr. Whit-'
was incorrect.. He also stated, that if the ques- bread) . bad been betrayed-into such an irregula-
tions he had read, together ,With the answers to rity.. It was the noire to,
be regretted, because
diem as given by Mrs. Lisle, had been taken the Hoese was.in possession of no document with
down, as he thought was the usual way, and pub- svhich that paper could be compared. His frienddown,
lished, they would contribute attach to remove had even made noqu
inir of Mrs.
Lisle previous
from the public mind the prejudice that had gone, to' his reading the paper ;y but stated, that it had
ferth against the Princess, of Wales. He did not been put into his hands on the morning of the:
say, that the depositions, as stated to be made bee day on which be read: it. He spoke without tine
fore the Commissioners, were either fabricated or pitting blame to him ; but the paper ought not to
falsified ; but he 'said, that if the Paper, said to he made the foundation of any statement in that
contain these depositioas, Was correct, the Paper . House. It appead t
rehat rs Lisle never inteud-
was such a one as should pat have been sent forth eel its puhlication ; and that the einntn►unication
'to the world, He did not read all the questions, was qualified by her reeollection. In conclusion,
be only commented on some of them, arid said that he remarked, it wits not to 'be wondered that the
if such were put, they were put improperly. Un- Noble Lords who hall been mentioned, had taken
til yesterday he did not believe that the questions an opportunity .of -Correcting the mirepresenta-
emi answers, as put before the Comini..sionetee flints whicle:had gone abroad respecting their con-
: were all taken down I-tthe same way as they we're - duct';---it was rather a matter of surprise that
before any othet counnissiion appointed either by : they had suffered so malty days to -elapse before
the CSowir or by Parliament ; or us was the case they replied to the statement which had been wed&
in the Cotirt of Chancery. It was this that led by the lion. Gentleman.
him into thebelief he 'entertained. It waS not me- Mr. 'Eeeicre. was unwilling to prolong :a con-
til he had received the iorimation front his lion. versatiOn `of this nature ; but after what had
Friend (Sir'S. Romilly), that 'he understood the passed, he hoped he might be indulged wits the
contrary to be the case. He merely stated the permission of the .House to offer a few words on
questions. as illustrati -e of ' the nature of Mrs. - the subject. The impression which bad been made
Lisle's evidence, and said that if answers had been on hint, and he belieeed on tegreat I part of the
e
taken down with the questions, and -published, House, by the paper read by bis.liariour
they would remove, in a great measure, the sting- Friend (Mr. Whitbread), was the. it was produced
which the depositions carried with them. Ott as a regular minute of the proceedings of the Com-
Wsdnesday last, lie wrote a 'letter. to Mrs. Lisle, snittee on the day on which Mr,.. Lisle ae ex!
asking pardon for the trouble he gave her, and mined; and hence he had thought that on that
stating that a paper, containing the qUestiops put dine the course previously . adopted had been de-
to her befOre the Commissioners, and her an- parted from ; and that th qnestione -and LinSof Wthe
Crs
ewers, had been put, into his hands, which he he, were titken down, ineteita eof the deposition
lieved to be authentic ; diet it had been put into witness alone. Ile did not say hie Hon. Friend
his.hands by persons in whose integrity he could wished to make such an impression, but he (Mr.'
,confide, and that he made that use' of it which-he -Elliott) certainly thought such to be the tact;
thought justice demanded of him. A Noble and he also understood hint to state that the dehoad
p-
Lord, however, (Ellenborough) bad termed it a sitiou abStracted from the evidence given
false tabrication, he chose the softest words been:so drawn up, that it was calculated to given
said 'to he .nsed by that Netbl 'Lerch though false impression of the nature of that evidence.
others move harsh were reported, such as he lie was now anxious to state what were hie'sen-
thought the hiwest of , society would . not use to:- time nts on titHriber pOint—the propriety.' of set-
convey offence, such as were banished from the ting up this after testimony against the urinal des
middle ranks of life, and if they could be among 'positions *Made ,before the Commissioners. "He
the highest,. Siere, he hoped, confined to the sit- --was 'decidedly against this. The viper produced
creel persenage of the Lord' Chief Justice Of the byhis,Hou. Friend,, iustead diming an etithenti-
King's tench). - The letter then Went on tostate, rated minute of the proceedings Of the Commis-
that he troubled betemerely to know it the iu sion, WaA metely drawn from the after -recollece
saidee contain the questions -pat to her and her tions of Mrs. Lisle. He had the tumour to he
answers, was autheetic Or not; that if it wes not acquainted with that Lady, and had as much re-
authentic, he had only to regret that she had been sleet for her, 'as any man in that House could
led by a false instrument intuit statement that was 'have, but b' could not think such a document
not correct. In answer to this, he received, he ought to be set up against the forme), proceedings
said, a letter front Mes. LiMe, stating that he had '..,0f the Commissioners. He could. not have such
cempared his letter with the document alluded to, confidence -in the memory of Mrs. Lisle; as to
and found that the paper he had read and the ths- think she could possibly recollact with perfect ac-
cunsent in her possession, were perfectly similar ; curacy every question put to her in the course of
that she had put the questions and answers to pit- a long examination, nor could be think any pro-
per, and delivered a copy of them -to the Princess fessional, titan could remember every thing that
of .Wales at the desire of the Princess ; that she - had been said, so as to give such a minute of all
never desired to make them public, and had not - that passed as could be safely depended on Mrs'.
Mentioned them even to her nearest iconnectiOris, 'Li;le did not wish to set up this paper against the
nor would she commuoicete, them now, but that fennel deposition Which she had made, and which
she had seen garbled extracts of them printed in had been filtered and corrected at her suggestion.
different papers, and that the paper he had sent her Hd P Ile therefore,coulot but complain of 'the cote-
for examination us is, as far us her mentory could duct of the Hon. Gentlemau, in .uphtilding this
,
serve 4er, a correct copy of the questions and an- Flier in opposition to the regelar utinutee of the
swers. From this e'cHOUse may see that no irn- j
.Collitilissioners, as sliell conduct wern to challenge
position had been practised by him upOn the pub- and call in question all the recorded evidence iu
lie. The paper he read contained Mrs Lisle's re- -the country. With respect to the character, which
collection of the questions and ai:swers. .He did e had been given Of this paper, he wished to oh-
not pretend to set up that paper agaiust the depo- serve, that if it Was understood to have been pros
sitions before the Commissioners, but there wits-: duced its RH authenticated whittle, not being elicit
very, little ditference between the questions as 1 an f tit th e nti cidtql minute, it Leith so much the up-
stated by her, and those ie the depositions, exeunt 'pearance of being a tabrieittione that it was not
i to be wondeved at that it shesad Inss'e I)en de"
,it that pert which referred to her opiedon of the
conduct of aas wontan. Tee order of the scribed to,he tine, He could oot help blantieglds
questions in her paper was neaale the, 3 ante as in 114:M0U1•4ibi Friehil for not ascertaining Whether
the depositions ; and it uPPe4ted to him unjust if 'or not it was authentic before
Oen be
tleepaprodnit ee(Sir S.ti it teS
.
he dill endear our, by resitting lieu` answers, to ' the House. Another . Holt.
take that sting from the depositions Which-they
.Itornilly) hail, ,on A former evening, stated, that
simmered to him improperly to convey. He would only answers -had been taken ' down; and this
now repeat 'What he before said, that lit' thonght 1 Moue ought to have manic his Honourable Friend
it unfortuliate the renott of die questiOn; 0 taken. Olt, Whiliorea( I) ettorc: CAUtiOUS itl byinging tor.
. ,

110TIAE OF COMATO'..'3;

TUESDAY, MARCH 23.
t
Afr. JonNsorr presented several Papers relative
to the Finance of lrel'and, which n'ere ordered to
lie upon the table.
The Wash Silk Duty Bill went though a Coui-

sertion- -
Air. WHItIVREAD begged to be allowed to of":1'
a.feW words iti t,:eplariatiOO: He had statt!d,
producing- the paper in question, that if t coil:
tents of it ..were correct,. it was singu kr.
when the qtiestion. was put as to whette, '),t! co'.
duct of the Princess was improper for_ a married .
woman, no answer appeared to have been
All he had meant to prove by eontra§ting the exki
mination With the. deposition, war this, thethe.
evidence given by-Mrs. Lisle had been extracto!
from her with difficulty, instead of having flowed
spontaiteonsly front her,sas some might think front
reading the depositions.. Mrs. Lisle stated; the
she did not Wish to set up her examination against
the proceedings of the Contutissioners, and, he,
would add, no more did be; but he contended, thus
What she had stated bore a different efiaratler
when proved to have been given in answer to
•••such questioni as lead been put to her,•than it did
when it appeared as her own free volnntary state- .
meat. Now, With respect to ghat his Honour.;
able Friend (Mr. Elliott) had said, of what had
been mentioned by another Hon. Gentlentan (Sit.
S. Romilly) namely, that only the -answers had
beett taken down in the minutes of the proceet:,-
ings of.-the Commissioners, he would answer,
that he did remember this to Have been stated, but
he also recollected, that that lon. Gentleman
hnd also stated, that after the depositions had been
taken, the original papers were burnt.
Sir S. RomILLY.—" Oh no, certainly suit.''
Mr. WIIITBUFAD said, then lie had in this in-
stance a wrong impression on his mind. He beg-
ged the Hon. Gentleman's pardon. Alto '‘vhtst
he had just heard, he was satisfied he '(Sir S;
Rotnilly) had not said so, Ile did not mean to..
impute to the Commissioners titer they bad t iken
down the examinations on the day whit Mrs.
Lisle made her deposition in a manner differing
from that •in which they bad previously been
taken. He had principally contended, that what
Mrs. Lisle had given in answer to questions put
by the Committee, bore a different interpretatioft
than was likely to be given to it, as it appeared in
the deposition.
Mr. Eworr said, be had, understood the Hon.
Gentleman' to have awed, that the deposition was
so drawn from the evidence, as to give an tul;•
fair impression of what bad been said by the wit-

Mr. WHITBREAD hail intended to shew,that the
questions and anSwersneade the evide#e of Mts.
Lisle appear different from what it seemed in the
deposition,.
Sir S. ItomiLLY had never said the original pa.,
pets Were buynt.
Mr. WHITBREAD. acEnowledged his mistake;
and was satisfied hebad been wrong. .•
Sir. S. ROMILIA' might have said that only one
of the papers was preserved in its original state.
.The Witnesses frequently desired to alter or. to
qualify What they laid advanced, and this was ge,
nerally thine by interlining what they wished -ro-
ad& ' llc did not know brit in one or two ',in-. •
stances the alterations were so,greati.that the eti
r,-
einat paper had been put aside, andthe depositions
'written over again.
Mr. WHITBREAD recollected the papers stated
to have been -burlit- were not those to which he
had alluded, but certain examinations taken by
the solicitor-General.
Mr. PoNsoNnY 'thought there coubi a
stronger illustration of the little dependance to be
placed on the memory of frail man; than this 104.itt
had furnished, when it had been said that, his
pourable Friend (Mr. AVhithread) had 'teen
-able to recollect what he himself hail said, or
what had fallen front another Ilort. Gentlemen,
lie submitted. to the Memory of the House, if the.
Honourable Gentleman had .rut represented the
Commission to have fabricated evidence tole laid
before the Crown., and if he (Mr. Ponsouby) bad
not withdrawn ithirielf from the. House QTI that
occasion, to write a note to another Honourable
Gentleman (Sir S. Romilly), stating what had oc-
curred, that he might -attend to give that expla'
nation which was necessary. Now, he would ask,
tvltat was usually thnught of the credit of . a wit-
ness who swore at one tune that certain pccur7.
renew had. taken- place, and at. another wrote 4
different account of the same matter Why the,
credit of such a witness would be destroy-
ed. But he lamented most exceedingly Ow
eintrse which had been pursued on the present
occasion. The Hon. Geptlenian,said he did not
set up the paper which be had produced against-the
formal proceedings of the Commission. It was
impossible that he could do so. In the nature of
things, he could not do it, and the ogle effect of
an attempt to 'do so, would be to destroy theere-
dit of the witness:whose testimony was so brought
forward. He thought he had some right to c..sai-
plain of his lion. Friend (Mr. Whitbread) He
had sat heat hint (Mr. Ponsonhy) on the night
huloi:e he (Mr. Whitbread) made Errs motion,
bad Co that it :was his inten-
tion to offer any animakersions• on theconduct,c,t
those four .Noble Lords lie had afterwards attack-
c(l, with three of whore he (Mr. Whitbread)
knew-he (Alr4ruuzi-ONy) iiy,,ed on a footiutz of
greatest: intimacy,` aud !.new that their character
and leput4tion were dear to hint
.(Mr. Ponsonny),
as his own. Lk could not but think he had a
little to complain of, as the Hon. Cientiewati
might have intimated to hint- his, design, that he
might have written to the Noble Lords, Who ,o
conduct was about to be disvussed, amid givv.i*
them 'opportunity of offeting 'an exOnnation,
The. lion. Geutleutan hail substantially said, that
the WittleSSVS had nut grid what they were retire,
settee(' to intve deposed. Ile (My. Po ,iionliy)
wont(' say a graver choge coal not be unvula
against those Noble Lords. it the Commissioners
had acted itt the manner described, they- wonld
have been liable. to an impe.,tebinent in Parlia.
meat, and severe punishment He thout.O.t his
Hon. Frithul had been to .arty the least of
rm,. in
isfirt:e:sit)to give it the
i ccrmtnuutcatittg titoteobsient:N' soi I,ll.4gbv:y.,*i;tile.i:ohaikatt
he bad so grave a charge, to bring forward.
Sir' P. BURDETT thought that :what.' bad been.
done l.ty the Hon. Gentleman: (Mr. Whitbread)
‘sCV:ia)llS;t!incc::CVlhllei it,e)ll.tnlettise cbrcleei sdl tooked ilrpsfolth:lititndarst,e,
tic.ile'eert'mMoonsi
tt,.tt.ll2l:l:s
tuaate thing for the eduntry whi4 coact have ye-
.