The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-22 00:00:00

education would rodeo. words in L•elaad. It was to the
clergy t':ey ha i to he k for the right support of the educa-
tion of Ireland, and these had done their duty notwith-
standing that many of them had been excluded from
benefices bscsuse they would not support this mon-
strous system of nazi anal education. That, certainly,
was a most urgers roue, and unjust act, but it vs as the
fact, as had been admitted. The system, however, would
nut stand; and until they introduced into Ireland a sys-
tem of education founded on the Scriptures, that
country would nev,e• be prosperous, turbulence and dis-
trust would still prevail in it, and the scenes of last year
would be or frequent occurrence.—(Hear.)
Mr. MOORE said, he believed that there were many
of the clergy of Ireland who were opposed to the present
system of education; but they conceived it better than
no system at all, and therefore they accepted it. They
believed that education ought to be based on religion,
and that a system of education without religion was
little better than no education at all, while, on the other
hand, they conceived that even such a system was pre-
ferable to a system based on a false religion.—(Hear.)
But while there was no doubt that a large body of the
people of Ireland saw much to find fault with
in the present system, he regretted that the reso-
lution should express that the system only was objection-
able to one dais for whose education so much provision
had been made.--(Hear, hear.) He confessed that in a
resolution so sectarian he could not agree. To the first
portion of the resolution he did not see much to object,
but to the second, " That measures might bo taken to
enable the clergy and laity of the Established Church
to extend the blessings of Scriptural education," he
most decidedly objected. It was the case that 800,0001,
given for the purposes of education to that party, had
been by them converted into another channel; and was
it right that they should now come to that House and
ask for additional funds to carry on their system? To
any such proposition he was most decidedly opposed.
SirARTHUR BROOKE supported the motion, and re-
ferred to the state of education as it existed in Ulster,
which was on the system of the Church Education So-
ciety. He stated, when the subject was last before the
House, that there were in Ulster, in proportion to the
population, one million of the people educated more
than there was in Connaught, which was under the
national system. So that there could be no doubt of the
failure of the national system.
Mr. NEWDEGATE also supported the resolution.
In doing so he was asking no more than was granted to
the Roman Catholics, namely,liberty to educate the rising
generation in the mode they considered best; and when
he saw that the application to that House was backed
by 1,587 of the clergymen, and 64,000 of the laity of
the Established Church in Ireland, he thought it was
deserving of consideration. It was not true that the
Roman Catholic clergy were favourable to a system of
national education, for when Government proposed to
erect fehouls and colleges for the education of those of
that faith, they had been denounced and condemned by
the great majority of the Roman Catholic clergy. It
was said that why ought not the system which suited the
Presbyterians also suit the members of the Church of
England; but while the Presbyterian system was per-
haps more democratic than was the Church of England
system, yet he thought they had seen enough to cause
them to pause before they gave much encouragement or
extension to that principle. lie considered that all educa-
tion ought to be based on the Scriptures, and for that
reason he opposed the present national 53 stem of educa-
tion
in Ireland.

Lord CLAUD HAMILTON said there was nothing
which fell from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre-
tary for Ireland from which it could be gathered on
what principle the national system of education was es-
tablished. He thought the House would be astonished
that two-thirds of the schools under the National Board
were rot baled by the authority of that Board. Two •
thirds of them were what was called non-invested schools.
They were not under the co.snizance of the Educational
Board; and therefore it was not true that the system
was a united one. It was also said that the Presbyte-
rian clergymen were in favour of the national system,
but if they were so it was because they were made to
believe it was a united system. Thera were. however,
423 schools under the superintendence of Presbyterian
clergy men, but only 28 of these were vested or were
under the control of the Educational Board. There were.
therefore, 28 Presbyterian ministers patrons of vested
schools, and 395 of non-invested; so that Presbyterian mi-
nisters countenancing this system, and opposing it,were as
14 to 1; and the fact was, while the Presbyterian body
took advantage of the system, they did not yield one
iota of their principles. The Presbyterian b.xly had
accepted of a portion of a grant, but retained to them-
selves the power to give what education they considered
right.—(Bear, hear.) As to the clergymen of the
Established Church, there was a large numbar who re-
fused their adhesion to the system, while many of those

had been kept from preferment in consequence. The
real grounds on which he disapproved of the actions of
the Nati.nal Board were, that while he thought the
training schools most uetul, Set he could not help feel-.

ing that the Board did not carry out the instructions of
the Government. Notwithstanding RH the earnest re•

commendations given to that Board, they were not car
vied out. He could state to the House that more than a
quarter of the whole schools rejected a number of
xtracts from the Scriptures which had been recom-
mended, and no only that, but they woull not ;How the
Scriptures themselvt s to be admitted within their
walls. He found that Lori Clarendon, when he
visited one of these training schools, said that
were he aware that the Scriptures were not uod
in those national schools, he would be oee of the
firmest and most uncompromising opponents of the sys-
tem. Had the Noble Lord, when he spoke in that
manner, been aware that in so large a number of them
the Scriptures were not allowed, he certainly would not
have spoke as he did, and how could any one approve of
a system which was subject to such management? Those
Scripture extracts were recommended as class-books;
but when he found that not only these, but the Scriptures
likewise, were excluded, how could they give creiit to
the assertion, that the system was founded on religious
truth?—(Hear, hear.) He was totally at a loss to know
how religious education could be furthered in Ireland,
when a strict prohibition was directed against the use of
the Holy Scriptures in the national schools, and consi-
dered that such a system was opposed to religion, and
the beneficial influence of morality on society.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that on hearing the
objection of the Noble Lord (Lord Claud Hamilton),
he should say that the advancement of religion and mo-
rality was ardently promoted in the national schools, and
he did not think that it would be judicious to put an end
to a system that had so well succeeded since 1831,
through which 500,000 children had been religiously and
morally educated. He did not say that the best system
of education was carried on in these schools, but he
thought that the House should consider that Lord Stan-
ley, who had been the originator of the system. bad, in
conjunction with many others, highly approved of the
advancement of education in Ireland. He di,3 not mean
to interfere with the conscientious feelings of Roman Ca-
tholics in preventing their children from reading the
Bible, because that was a matter appertaining to their
creed, but he should say that there was no objection
raised against the extracts from that sacred work, which
were used in all those echoele Ile regretted to say that
the Noble Lord (Lord C. Hamilton) was under an erro-
neous impression, when he stated that the Board of Edu-
cation did not comply with the regulations • for the rules
are, that before eleven o'clock religious education shall
be given to the children according to their respective
faith, but that the rarnaining portion of the day shall be
devoted to secular instruction. The Noble Lord (Lord
C. Hamilton) also stated that the extracts from the Bible
were not read; but he should say that in 2,800 of those
schools these extracts were generally read, and the rea-
son of the refusal of the other schools to read those ex-
tracts was, that they did not consider them to be a good
version, and therefore these were allowed to partake of
secular instruction apart from those Scriptural extracts.
Yet from this it could not be argued that no religious
education was carried on in those schools. Ho also con-
sidered that the property of the Protestant Church was
vufficient to educate the children of that profession in
Ireland, and that it would be contrary to the principles
4,f justice and economy to allow a grant when such a
eraat income was at its disposal. He recollected that a
Protestant Bishop of the last century was attacked be-
cause he disseminated a work among the people, but his
reply was that he wished to make them, if not good Pro-
testants, good Catholics, or anything good.
Mr. NAPIER said that he did not mean to make any
allusion to Roman Catholics, but he should say that he
Mt astonished that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
had expressed such an opinion as that the clergy of Ire-
land had sufficient means to educate the children of their
orofession; men, many of whom have only 701. per year.
He considered that the question had been altogether
avoided by the Noble Lord, because it was evident to all
that the Object of the motion was to allow a portion of
the grant for the education of the Protestant children of
Ireland. He did say that there was an exclusion of the
Scriptures, and that their case was, therefore, but a sim-
ple one, asking them only to do for Protestants what
they had done for Roman Catholics.
Mr. REYNOLDS, who was received on rising with
cries of •' Divide," from all parts of the House, said that
the question which ought to be kept in view was simply
whether what had been done for the Roma' Catholics of
Ireland was a grievance to the Protestant population. It
was proposed that the Protestant Church of 'lreland
should be made richer by a grant, but that in itself wont'
be a grievance to the whole community of Ireland; and he
hoped that in all future questions respecting national edu-
cation in Ireland, financial reform associations would ap-
ply themselves to consider whether the money for th st
purposes ought not to be drawn from the resources of
the Established Protestant Church of Ireland. He
must take that opportunity of rebutting the charge
of ignorance brought against the province of Con.
naught by the Honourable Member for Fermanagh.
—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Divide, divide.") He
would remind the Hon. Member that the province of
Ulster exceeded in population that of Connaught by
nearly a million. It was the Protestant Church of Ire-
land which required investigation, and he hoped that
early in the next month his Hon. Friend the Member
for Middlesex would be permitted by the Hon. Member
for Montrose, on his own motion, to introduce a motion
for the purpose of instituting the necessary inquiry.—
(Cries of " Divide.")
The Hon. Gentleman finding himself interrupted,
moved the adjournment of the debate; hut on the sugges-
tion of Lord John Russell and Mr. Disraeli, the latter
of whom assured him thl't every sentence he had
uttered had been listened to, resumed, and shortly af-
terwards concluded his speech.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... 102
Against it ... ... 162
Majority against it „,-60
Sir G. GREY suggested to Mr. Wyll that it would
be well to delay, until to. morrow (this day), his motion
relative to coalinine accidents, when he would-be able to
lay on the table some printed papers on the subject.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to judgments
in Ireland.