The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-02 00:00:00

have taken place.—( Hear, hear.) Two propositions were ad-
vanced by the other side of the House—first, that the wants of
the Church should be adequately supplied ; ar.d next, that the
surulus should be appropriated to the religious education of the
peore. The speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Lan-
cashire, was so masterly, so unanswerable, and so conclusive on
these points that they might go to a division without doing
more than repeating a summary of the clear and irresistible
statement that had been made by the Noble Lord.— ( Hear. )
A commission had been appointed by the Governmen.t to
make inquiries into the state of the Church, and the result of
their labours was in the possession of the House. He thought
that it was most material for them to examine into the compa-
rative increase and decrease of the adherents of Protestantism
in Ireland. He had entered into that examination ; and the
result of his inquiry wag, that Protestantism, notwithstanding
all the difficulties it had to contend with in that country, was
rapidly advancing. He had made a comparison of the number
of parishes in Ireland, in which, within a stated period, Pro •
testantism had increased, and, of those in which it had dimi-
nished. In the dioceses of Ardfert and Tuam, in which the

proportion of Catholics to Protestants was greatest, he found
that the number of diminishing congregations were fourteen,
whilst the number of increasing congregations was forty-one.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to read
from a document be held in his hand a comparative statement
of the number of parishes in each of the several dioceses in
Ireland, in which the Protestant congregations increased as
contrasted with those in which they bad diminished. The re-
sult of the statement was, that it appeared the number of parishes
in which the Protestant congregations increased exceeded the
others by a very large majority. After hearing this statement,
a statement so specific and so conclusive as to the advance of
Protestantism, were they prepared to deal with a surplus of the
revenues of the Irish Church ? But, even so, where was the
surplus 2—( Hear, hear, hear, and loud cheers.) They
talked of supply the wants of the Protestant Church, of
satisfying its wants ; but how could they be prepared to de -
termine when the wants of the Protestant Church were satis-
fied?—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He did not
shrink from the assertion. Were the Perpetuity Purchase
Fund Commissioners paid? Were the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners paid ? To talk of a surplus was al Bird. To legislate
upon the presumption of a surplus, was to mortgage the reve-
nues of the Church to raise a sort of ready money for the pre-
sent advancement of political purposes.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Gentleman referred to the Report of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners, and to the fact therein stated, and which seemed
to have great weight with the Hon. Member for Berkshire—
namely, that in Prussia the Ministers of the Roman Catholic
and Protestant religions were paid out of the funds of the
State, and lived together in the utmost peace and harmony.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded, at considerable length,
to point out the distinctive circumstances in the history and con-
dition of the respective countries, and to show that no analogy
whatsoever existed between the condition of both countries.
He referred to some of the questions which had been for-
warded for answers to the Prussian Government, and, in re-
ply to the eleventh question, it was stated that proselytism,
or inducing others to change their religious faith by force
or persuasion, was especially prohibited, and punishable
by the law of Prussia. Now, he contended that this was fatal
to the freedom of discussion on religious subjects. Having
disposed of the argument respecting Prussia, the Hon. Gen-
tlemen proceeded to apply himself to a proposition that had
been made from the opposite side of the House, namely; that
an ecclesiastical establishment did not exist for the propagation
of the doctrines of a particular religion, but for the general in-
struction of the people. If that proposition was a true one,
that an establishment did not exist for the propagation of par-
ticular doctrines, but for the instruction of the people—if that
was the case, they had only to go the whole length at once,
and divide the property by the rules of simple arithmetic.
Now, if they believed what they said to be true, how did they
act ? They gave 300,000/. per annum for the propagation of
the doctrine, and 50,000/. for the instruction of the people.
Thus, whilst they maintained that an establishment existed
not for the propagation of its doctrines, but the education
of the people, they gave 300,0001. for the propagation of the
doctrine, and proposed to give 50,000/. for the education of
the people. This was an answer to their own argument.. He
did not think that this Bill was founded on any principle of
distribution that could be maintained. After some further
of eervations on this point, the Hon. Gentleman concluded by
expressing a hope that this Bill would not pass. He believed
it would not pass the Legislature.—(Cheers,from the Minis-
terial side of the House.) That belief was founded on a ma-
ture consideration of the principles on which it was framed.—
(Cheers.) This was the great question which last year con-
stituted the strength of the Ministry, and was now the source
of their weakness. He trusted, however that the majority of
the House would accept the measure which had been pro-
pounded by the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire—a
measure which would effect every valuable object, which pre
served fair proportion between duty and revenue, and which
differed from the measure before the House in rejecting that
principle, the only effect of which could be to open up a
continued series of discussions and disputations between
the clergy and the people of Ireland.—( Loud cheering.)
Mr. POULT ER fully agreed with the Noble Lord
(Stanley) that full provision should be made for the just wants
of the Church Establishment in Ireland, but he still contended
that there was a great excess of tithes in that country as con-
trasted with those wants. Seven eighths of the people in that
country were Roman Catholics. He hoped the Church in
England would never be placed in such a position as the
Church in Ireland, for if it were he would act as be should on
the present occasion.
Col. CONOL LY could not accede to a proposition which
was compelled to suppose an imaginary surplus for the purpose
of impoverishing the Clergy of the Church of Irelar.d. The
question of surplus was but used as an instrument to sustain a
party in power, which party now found that, having used it for
one purpose, it hung like a millstone round their necks with
respect to all others.— Cheers.) ' His Majesty's Ministers had
disturbed and hazarded the peace of the country by introducing
this question of a surplus for party purposes, and on them laid
all the responsibility of the consequences.—( Hear, hear.) The
present Bill was more dangerous to the Establishment than
that proposed last year, for it worked out its object more
insidiously.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. 11. GRATTAN said the Irish Members did not up-
hold the present Government from any party spirit, but be-
cause there was an evident disposition to do justice to Ire-
land, and if a dissolution took place to-morrow, ten additional
Irish Members would be sent in to back the Ministry.—(Mi-
nisterial cheers.) The Hon. Member then referred to the
writs of rebellion issued from the Court of Exchequer, and
asked was this the way to conciliate Ireland with regard to the
tithes ? He was himself a member of the Established Church,
attached to it through principle ; but be felt that this was not
the mode in which it should be upheld. This question must
be settled. Did they think Ireland would stop whilst they de-
liberated? No; the question was already settled in Ireland.
Whilst they were legislating, tithes were being extin-
guished. While the British people were legislating the
Irish were deciding,. Tithes were already settled in Ire-
land. Formerly war was carried on against the peasantry ;
it was now waged against the landlords. Gentlemen op-
posite never considered six millions of people ; their cry
was for the Protestant Church.—[The Hon Member quoted
some extracts from the published reports, to show the ex-
penses incurred by the recusants, and comparative numbers of
Catholics and Protestants in several parishes.] Who cared in
Ireland about the Protestant Church ?—( Cheers and laugh-
ter.) He meant, who cared about what Gentlemen opposite
thought of it ?—( Laughter.) The English brought the Irish
within their power by the Union ; but the Union was not to be
preserved by fusty theology.—( Laughter.) The Irish met
the doctrine by one immense shout of execration.—(Laughter,
and cries of " Oh, oh.") At the next election there would
be ten additional Members returned; the qualification of
Members of Parliament should not be taken from the club-
houses.—( Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") The few re-
maining sentences of the Hon. Member's speech were inau-
dible to us from the general buzzing through the House.
Sir H. HA RDINGE heard much complaint of the en-
forcement of the law. But, unless the law were to be a deed
letter arid a mockery, the sentence of a Court of Justice should
he appealed to by the suffering clergy, and that sentence should
be enforced. Resistance to the law he did not think the spon-
taneous act of the people, but was primarily excited by those
who had political interests to advance by agitation and distur-
bance, anDy-etre--Gssttee)ee eters,,syeeesseleeetssea_..k eese eteei-
ing or obedience to the law, or national ease and prosperity, so
much as to their own aseendancy.—( Cheers.) lie did not
mean to cast indiscriminate censure on all the Catholic clergy,
but referred to those who urged on the people to resistance,
and plunged the country in disorder, crime, wretchedness, and
poverty.—(Cheers.) To show that the fair and peaceful ad-
justment of any one question was not the single and simple
aim of these intriguing priests and rampant agitators ; he
would instance the late agitation meetings got up on the sub-
ject of the Irish Municipal Bill. In all discussions at public
meetings on that subject the Irish tithe question was mixed
up with it, and insidiously made auxiliary to it, although the
tithe question was not either the subject of debate or made
properly any part of it. Was not this strong proof that when
agitation served the purposes of party, grievances were thrown
in, in the lump, to excite the public animosity ?—( Hear.)
It was the utter extinction of tithes eventually that was asked
for, under the semblance of appropriation. Was it not wicked
and base to insult the Irish people with this delusion of ap-
propriation ?—( Hear, hear.) The application of the super-
abundant revenues of one parish to the wants of another would
not satisfy the priests, who would say that any application of
the revenues of the Church, for the Church was a grievance
and an injury inflicted on the Catholics, whose hereditary
revenues were aPpropriated to the uses of men whom they
designated as heretics. If the Catholics refused to comply
with the law, and pay those demands that were justly due
from them, then the law must not be suffered to be beaten
down by factious or insurrectionary violence, and these
parties must take the consequences of their headstrong dis-
obedience or disaffection.—( Loud cheering.) The Noble
(Lord J, Russell) who professed the Protestant religion, and
avowed attachment to it, was inflicting the deepest injury upon
it. By his suppression of d6O parishes he took away the light
of true religion where it was most .wanted. The Noble Lord
had that night stated that the use of an Establishment was not
for the diffusion of doctrines, but of education. But on a for-
mer occasion, when the question of the Church of Scotland
was under the notice of the House, the Noble Lord declared
that the use of an Established Church was for the propagation
of religion, the best system of religion. What religion, then,
as the best, would he propagate in Ireland ? Was it the Ca-
tholic ? lie hoped not ; for, according to the opinions of the
Noble Lord himself, it was his duty to propagate, to encourage,
and foster the Protestant Church there ; for in what other
Church could there be found so much of the genuine spirit of
the Christian religion ?—( Cheers from the Opposition.) The
Hon. Member concluded by supporting the amendment.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART etticl ,a few words in oppo-
sition to it.