The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-13 00:00:00

HILL COOLIES.

Sir J. GRAHAM wishe I to ask the Under Secretary for the Colo.
nics, whether it was his intention to move the further progress of
of the East India Labourers' Bill that day—and as he was on his legs,
he begged to ask whether any information had been received a t the
Colonial Office with respect to the arrival of Hill Coolies in the West
Indies ?---if so, what was the number, and was the Colonial Office in
possession of any information with respect to the tonnage of the vessels
in which they were transported.
Sir G. GREY said it was not his intention to move the second read-
ing of the East India Labourers' Bill that day, as it contained some
provisions which were liable to much objection and required considera-
tion. The Government were not in possession of any information with
respect en the arrival of the Hill Coolies at Demerara. He had seen an
account of the grrival of three ships in the Newspapers, but he had
been infoimed by a gentleman to whom some of them had been assigned
that only two ships had arriVect Whenever the Government received
any information, there would be no Objection to its being produced.
Sir R. PEEL inquired whether there ;!as any Bill before the House,
that would enable the House to discuss the vt-.liole question relating to
the importation of Hill Coolies ?
Sir GEO. GREY—Yes; the East India Labourers' Bill.
COAST GUARD—GROSS OUTRAGE.

Sir It. PEEL wished to draw the attention of the Noble Lord op-
posite to an account in the Papers of to.day of some proceedings that
had taken place yesterday before the Lord Mayor, from which it ap-
peared that certain officers of the Custom.house had offered great vio.
lence to a gentleman while sailing in his yacht; and that he had on se-
veral occasions before been similarly insulted. He must say a greater
outrage he had never heard of, and he should like to know if the state.
merits were true.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had not seen any account of it, but would
direct his attention to the subject.

MAILS BY RAILWAYS BILL.
On the motion of Mr. LABOUCHERE, the Mails by Railways Bill
went through Committee, pro forma, and was ordered to be taken into
consideration on Monday next.
PRISONS BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he wished to have this Bill committed,
as he was desirous of introducing certain clauses and amendments.
Lord ASHLEY said he wished to speak to that motion. He thought
he could show good cause why another order of the day should betaken
inpreference to the order of supply, which would give him a legitimate
opportunity of bringing forward a case which the Noble Lord had so
pertinaciously refused to hear. He saw the Noble Lord shook his head,
but he would ask how was it that the Government was in-
strumental in counting out the House yesterday, by re.
ducing the numbers below the legitimate amount, by which
he was deprived of the opportunity of laying before the
House and the country, the most grevious case and the most
abominable system that had ever prevailed in any civilised nation. The
Noble Lord opposite knew well that for two years he (Lord Ashley)
had been deluded on the subject. On the 22d of June he had hoped he
might be able at any rate to state the case of so large a number of
aggrieved persons. He made the attempt, and the Noble Lord had tri-
umphed by a majority of eight. Yesterday was the day he had hoped to
have been able to bring it on. The House met by adjournment at six
o'clock, but no sooner had it met than it was proposed that
the House should be counted out.—(Hear.) Immediately
upon that notice being given one of the Lords of the Treasury, the
Hon. Member for Haddington (Mr. R. Steuart) went out of the House.
Other Members of the Government went into the outer lobby.
Mr. FOX MAULE—WiII the Noble Lord name those Members ?
Lord ASHLEY himself saw the Hon. Member for Haddington go
into the lobby, and he saw the person go with him the Hon. Member
for Durham, himself a very large millowner, and one of those who, by
the statement he (Lord Aililey) should have made, would have at least
been put upon his defence. In that way the House was counted out,
and so speedily was it done, that although there were several
gentlemen at the bar of the House of Lords, who agreed with him on
this matter, they could not get back to the House before it was counted
out. Even then, with the Speaker in the Chair, there were thirty.seven
present. He should have been very glad to have brought the motion on
in a plain and legitimate way i but as bn could nut do that, he must
bring it on in a way that might appear (unintentional on his part) to
impede the business of the country. Did the Noble Lord think that
this was a question of so little importance that he might on one occa-
sion resort to privilege, and on another resort to trickery?—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Houle might think that
the person who brought this question before the House was
a very despicable person—(No, no.)—but he must be allowed to say the
question was of prominent importance, and of such incree'sjPg magni-
tude, that if the attention of the Government were not given to its he
would tell the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, that
however burthensome he might find that office at present, it would be a
million times more burthensome.— (Hear, hear.) He was not asking
the House to affirm any new principle; he was merely anxious
to lay before the House of Commons a condition of things un-
paralleled in the history of this mercantile nation.—(Hear, hear.)
He wanted to know whether they would leave the law in such a state
that it must be daily violated ? And not only so, but whether they would
positively refuse to hear any statement of the condition of that law, or
of the persons who were aggrieved by it ? It might be inconsistent far
him to move the order of supply before any other, simply that it might
be rejected ; but if the motion for supply should be brought forward to-
day, he would move his resolution by way of amendment ; if, however,
it should be brought forward so late as not to afford him time to make
his statement, then he would move that the supply be adjourned till
Monday next. It was in vain to appeal to the Government, and he
should therefore appeal to the House to give him its support, for he was
fully determined that his statement should be laid before the Commons
of England, in order that he might obtain a full and final answer to this
great and crying evil —(Cheering.)
Mr. R. STEUART said, as the Noble Lv d had pointedly alluded
to him, he wished to say a few words in explanation so far as regarded
himself. It was not from any previous communication with any one
that lie had left the House, and so far from this being the case, the Un-
der• secretary of State expressed to him his regret that the House had
been counted out. As regarded himself individually, he could only say
that having come to the House just before the motion made by the
Hon. Member for Kilkenny, be had no opportunity of doing anything
which could tend to thin the House. So far from going into the lobby
with the Hon. Member for Durham, lie never saw that lion. Member,
and the Noble Lord was therefore completely mistaken.— (Cheers.)
Whatever blame might attach to himself individually, none whatever
attached to Government on the subject —(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL would say nothing on the subject on which the
Noble Lord had spoken, not being present at the time, but lie came
down a few minutes after, with the view of attending the motion o: the
Noble Lord. Nothing would induce him to say that the Noble Lord
was actuated by a desire to embarrass the Government, because he was
aware, from the interest the Noble Lord had taken in the question, the
motives by which he was actuated were the 'nest honourable.—(Hear,
hear.) But yet, in his great anxiety, lie was very apt to overlook what
were the actual facts of the ease. He stated that he had been prevented
by the Government, one way or other, from stating the case with regard
to the factory children. The Noble Lord must admit, that if he (Lord
J. Russell) were wrong in proposing that the Factory Bill should be
dropped, he himself proposed that it should be taken in preference to the
Tithe Bill, and that the House then decided against him by a majority of
eight. The Noble Lord was entire'y wrong in sup;,osing that the Govern.
ment had any particular wish to evade the question. If he had understor d
from the Noble Lord that be was desirous to have the question takee
into consideration, he would have cAsidered whether it might not have
been brought on, putting aside some other order of the day ; but win n
he put his question he had not expressed any particular desire that the
Bill should be brought on. But knowing the opposition which was
growing up to the Bill, it did appear to him that while there was great
anxiety in the House to propose a 13111, that its discussion would be the
revival of a questiAn— which would require considerable time for deli.
beratinn. "Trtir"Nnble Lord had it in Its power, when the question of
Supply was moved, to make any statement with regard to the Factory
question i but he (Lord J. llubsell) must say, from what he had heard
on both side, of the House, that it was improper that any excitement
should be taised at the present moment. If, however, the Noble Lord
took a different view of the matter, it was competent for him to bring
on his motion. As to the hope of introducing any Bill with regard to
Factories, of which there should not be some violation, it appeared to
him as chimerical a helm as that any Bill with regard to the revenue
would, with our present high rate oftluties,prevent sm uegling altogether.
At the same time he would observe that according to the last report cf
the inspectors it appeared that the law was now more generally observed
than it had hitherto beets.
Mr. WALLACE having been present when the House was counted
out yesterday, and acquainted with all the circumstances, was desirous
that no erroneous impression contrary to the facts should be made there
or elsewhere. Ile begged to say, in the first place, that he believed his
Hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk had consulted with no person
when lie moved that the House be counted, and it so happened that
when he was passing by his'friend the Member for Haddington he had
heard him say that he had done exceedingly wrong in counting out
the House, as the Noble Lord who had a motion to bring forward would
pi obebly enlarge upon the subject under irritated feelings,

Mr. LABOUCHERE being one cf the few Members of the Govern-
ment who were present, begged to assure the Noble Lord that !bete
was no concert or formed plan among them to get rid of the question by
:ounting out the House. He was quite sure when he made that state-
ment that the Noble Lord would give him credit for its accuracy.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear," from Lord Ashley.) If any witness were
necessary he would appeal to the Speaker, who when the House
was adjourned expressed his regret that the , House had not pro-
ceeded to business, as it would have the effect of prolonging the
sittings of the House, and he (Mr. Labouchere) had concurred in that
opinion. He believed the counting out of the House arose merely from
the circumstance of many Members being fatigued from having sat
from twelve to four in the afternoon, and objecting to a late sitting after-
wards.—(Hear, hear.)

~ltfr. GIBBON
thought it would be judicious to postpone the motion,
as the last report of inspectors, upon which it was fonnded, had not
yet been printed.
Mr. SLANEY had been a fellow sufferer with the Noble Lord, but he
did not complain of it, as he believed the counting out arose incidentally,
and without any design.

Lord ASHLEY observed that the Noble Lord had taunted him with
having evinced much anxiety on the subject, but he felt very re.
luctant at all times to trespass longer than was absolutely necessary on
the time of the House. Had be (Lord Ashley) gone into any extra.
neous matter the Noble Lord would have been the Ant to call him to

Iceder, and it would be in the recollection of the House that he had
Olt questions to the Noble Lord usque ad nauseous on ate 01 tiect%
I,.`,Pr 4 few words from Mr. F. MAU LE the conversatiux dropped.
- PRISONS BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the FiiSoll% BM, Air.
BERNAL in the chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to without observation,
On clause 3 being read, clauses up to 6 were agreed to.
On clause S being proposed,
Lord SANDON moved as an amendment that the appointment on'
the officers of the jails be in the " Town Councils" in place of the•
Justices.

After some conversation the clause was postponed.
Cause 9 was agreed to without amendment.
After a desultory discussion, in which Lord G. Somerset, Mr. Hawes,
Mr. Fox Motile, and Lord J. Russell took part,
Clauses up to 9 were agreed to.
On clause 10 being read, which provided for the spiritual instruction of
the prisoners,
Mr. _LANGDALE said it would be necessary to make some arrange-
ment by which the prisoners professing the Roman Catholic religion
Should receive son-.e spiritual instruction, and he would therefore move
an ariMrtSretent to the cnct that where the average number of prisoners
professing a religion differing from that Of the Established Church
shall amount to fifty in the ensuing year, it shall and may be lawful for
the person having the appointment of Chaplains to appoint a Chaplain

professing that religion. •
Mr. GIBSON thotigizt the lion. Member would not receive the
support of his friends on the other side of the souse, inasmuch as few
persons would be found to discharge the duties of the office of chaplain
without a salary.
Mr. FOX MAULE did not think the proposition' .of the Hen.
Member at all unreasonable Where the number of prlan.aers of any
persuasion was so large as 50, it would be in his view oxytdient to
have a chaplain appointed with a salary.
' Sir C. KNIGHTLEY said if the principle of the HonouraL4o Mem-
ber was carried out, they would soon have as many clergymen ad rhaP-
lains.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL would go so far with the Honourable Barc net as
to agree with him that where there were fifty prisoners of any per-
suasi,m they should have a clergyman of their own persuasion. he
question was not one of pecuniary amount, but of a great moral obli-
gation, and he hoped it would receive the support of the House. They
had three classes of Chaplains in the jails of Ireland ; one for the
Established Church, one fur the Roman Catholics, and o;ie for the Dis-
senters, and he hoped the same principle would be acted upon in the
prisons of England.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LUC AS—Although he frequently differed with the Iron. and
Learned Member for Dublin, he felt much pleasure in agreeing' with
him on the present occasion.=(Cheers.) He had visited a prison in
England lately, and, ou enquiry of the Governor, he had astertait,ed
that the prisonert of all persuasions, although they protested against it,
were compelled to attend the public worship of the Established Church.
Now that was a state of things which he thought the li..ause would not
consent to, and the sooner an alteration was made the Bette.'.
Mr. O'CONNELL would merely say, that whenever he had the
misfortune to differ from the Hon. Member he did so with great regret.
Mr. GLADSTONE said if a chaplain were allowed for fifty persons,
there could be no objection to providing one for a smaller number. That
was an objection to the form of the motion. He, however, objected to
it on principle, and thought that a question of so much importa.nee
ought not to have been brought forward without notice, as it was alto-
gether new in legislation.
Mr. LANGDALEsaid he hail given notice of his intention to move
this amendment when the Report was brought up.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HAWES said, although this proposition was new in form it wag
not so in substance, for in the prison to which the Hon. Member himself
devoted ED much time, Catholic priests were admitted to visit Ca-
thoiprisoners. A similar practice prevailed in Clerkenwell, and why
should
it not be general? It was inconsistent in Hon. Members oppo-
site, who would not allow a salary to be conferred on a Dissenting
Minister or a Catholic Clergyman in cases were there was a sufficient
number of
pristine. .." to demand his whole time, because there was a pre-
vious clause providing .that if 50 persons were confined belonging to the
Church of England,
the C.,ergyman should devote his whole time to
them. Why should that not..be the case with respect to the Catholics.
Lord SANDON opposed the a..
"nendmeat. He was surprised that
the advocates of the Voluntary system: hould be the persons to advocate
the payment of a salary from other persons to Catholic chaplains.
Lord EBRINGTON said the question was .a most important one, and
objectto affirm the. principle which it
he hoped the House would not
involved, but would provide for the spiritual instrtn: tion of those per-
sons who were in such a situation as to be unable to obtain it for
themselves.
Mr. DARBY should regret exceedingly to see any lietsoll of the
Roman Catholic persuasion, or any other creed, compelled to attend a
place of worship, which they did not approve. But the question was,
whether when Roman Catholic prisoners were in a gaol, the saCte prin.
ciple was to be extended to them which was extended to those who- pro-
fessed the established religion ? Certainly this was introducing a great
change, and ought to be maturely deliberated upon. The: question
was, whether all persons of all creeds, were to be placed on the
same footing as the members of the establishment. If so, they must
provide as many chaplains as there were creeds under the sun.—
(Laughter.) The Noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department had not consented to the introduction of the amendment,
and it ought not to have been brought on in his absence.
Mr. FOX MAULE said the Noble Lord was merely asked if he
intended to introduce the clause, and he replied that he did not.
That, however, would not have prevented the Noble Lord from sup-
porting it if introduced by another person; and had he been present, he
(Mr. M.) had, no doubt, that he would have given his individual support
to the proposition of the Hon. Member near him (Mr. Langdale).
Mr. PALMER should vote against the motion, because he thought it
would tend to militate against the Established Church.
We shall give the conclusion in our
SECOND EDITION.

Yesterday morning, between one and two o'clock, as
Mr. Wells, wine merchant, of Hunter-street, Brunswick-square, was
walking arm-in-arm with a friend along the New-road, adjacent to Eus-
ton.square, on their return from the theatre, they perceived a suspici.
ous.looking fellow walking some distance before them, and at length he
turned down a thoroughfare, on passing by which they heard a whistle.
and some one call out in a low tune of voice, " Here I am," on which
a ruffianly looking fellow rushed upon them and made an attack, which
rendered it necessary for Mr. Wells and his friend to make a spirited and
determined resistance, which they did. Mr. Wells, who is a powerful
young man, defended himself against the ruffian by whom they were at
first assailed, and he knocked him down and inflicted upon him a severe
drubbing. until he cried for mercy, and he then proceeded to the assist..
ance of his friend, and the other two escaped. They called for the police,
and assistance soon arrived on tlitt spot, when they gave the fellow who
first attacked them into custody, and he was taken to the station-house,
where he was recognised as an old offender, and locked up. Yesterday
he was taken to Hatton garden, dreadfully beaten, when Mr. Wells
and his friend attended and identified him. The prisoner affected to
cry, and denied the charge, saying that he was first attacked, but it
being proved to the contrary, after a lengthened inquiry he was coin-
mitted.

MILITARY FLOGGING.—Monday morning the
r.;elings of the inhabitants of Woolwich were much pained by the shrieks
of a )rarine named Barnet, who underwent the punishment of 150
lashes, int,:suant to the sentence of a garrison court martial, for disorderly
conduct and ether charge; The back of Barnet was dreadfully lacera-
ted from the heal.; falling of Vie sharp and wire-like catgut, for it is said
that since the recluctiCn in number of the lashes the weapons have been
made heavier and nun; effective. Barnet, after being taken down
from the halberds in an extt.ernely exhausted state, was conveyed to the
infirmary.

We understand on good authority, that the Hon.
H. T. Liddell, " ouresteemed and excetZ,mit friend," was not the hearer
of Castlereagh's letter i 1 Madame Grisi, The Honourable Gentle-
man's engagement does not extend to the junior branches of the Wyn-
yard family.—Durham Paper.
THE WEATHER IN EDINBURGH,—The warm
and genial weather for the last few days has had the Not effect on the
crops on this neighbourhood, which are fast advancing to maturity.
Friday we had a thunder storm, accompanied with hear,- showers,
which flooded every brook and stream in the neighbourhood, The
storm came from the south, and passed on to the north —Courant.
As soon as the Duke of Wellington, who did ail he
could to remain incog., was recognized on his way to Marshal Soult's bait,
on Friday, by the crowd assembled in Portland.place, lie was received by
immense cheers, augmenting as lie approached the mansion, which ap-
proach, owing to the long train of carriages, occupied much time.

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