The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MAY 10, 1836.

cover the sums to which they were entitled by a jury.
A jury was sammoned to decide, and in most cases they de-
cided upon the value of the land before the title was in
vesti,ated. The title was the next matter that catrie to
consideration.' He called upon the House to interfere in
some way, and he would leave with the House to say which
was the most .likely to give that protection that ought to be
afforded.

After a few words from the ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Mr.
HARLAND,

Mr. G. J. HE ATHCOTE called upon the House to pro-
tect the vast number of small farmers and proprietors in the
county he represented, whose property would be much affected
by the vast number of railways which passed through it.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division.
For the Resolutioa

Against it
Majority for the resolution --16

was rejected, and a measure introduced by the Govern-
ment, having for its object the protection of children up
to certain ages, and a restriction upon the hours of working.
After the Ist of March, 1835, children under twelve years of
age were restricted to working eight hours each day ; and from
the Ist of March, 1836, children between twelve and thirteen
were confined to the same hours. His sole object was to leave
the law as it stood on the Ist of March last, and to permit
children after attaining the age of twelve, to work for twelve
hours each day. The grounds on which he acted were, that
they had in the report of the Inspectors their unanimous opinion
that it would be impossible to enforce the law as it stands. Be-
sides, they had it not only from the reports of the Inspec-
tors, but also from the parties opposing the Bill, that the ne-
cessary consequence of enforcing the law must be to throw out
of employment all the childreu between 12 and 13 years of age.
The Bill of 1833 went upon the principle that chil-
dren of this age should be employed upon the relay
system of eight hours. Experience had proved that
that system could not be carried into effect in many
districts—in some large towns it had worked well ;
but in other places it was impossible to get the requisite num-
ber of children. Then came the question, how far it was de-
sirable for the House—how far it was expedient at once to put
an end to the working of so large a portion of children
as there would be thrown out of employment if this Bill were
not passed ? The effect of the clause as it now stood would he to
throw from 25,000 to 30,000 children at once out of employ-
ment in the Mills, and they would have no chance of getting it i n
any other way. He knew that there were two parties opposed
to the Bill ; one of them was represented by his Noble Friend
(Lord Ashley), who, for the sake of humanity, were against
the present Bill. Upon grounds of humanity he was not
afraid to meet the Noble Lord—would it not be a better un-
derstood humanity if children, who were protected up to the
age of 12 only to 8 hours, were after that allowed to
work 69 hours a week ? He had taken the opinion of
forty-eight indifferently chosen medical men upon the
print, and from 43 of them he had in answer that if the chil-
dren were well fed and clothed, the work would be no detri-
ment to them. From five he had a contrary opinion—but it
was to be borne in mind that there were forty three to five.
He would assert, upon the interests of well understood huma-
nity, it was better not to prevent them working sixty-
nine hours, when the other alternative was that they
were to be thrown out of employment altogether : upon
the grounds of humanity alone, he thought the insertion
of the clause he proposed was advisable.—( Hear, hear.)
But there was another party who entertained opposition to this
Bill upon different grounds : he did not think the present
stage of the proceedings was the proper time in which they
should put forward their opposition. He knew it would be
put forward, and therefore he took the liberty of adverting to
it. That party was not the party who should not look
to the protection of the children, or restrict their labour even
when under twelve years of age, but it was those who were
anxious to get up again the question and imposition
of restriction upon the labour of adults down to
ten hours a day.—(Cries of Hear.) Now he would put
it to his Friend opposite, which would better the state of those ,
whom he wished to protect, if the desire of that party were
carried into effect?—( Hear, hear.) Why, the Ten Hours Bill
carried with it the principle that children were to work as
long as adults, they, instead of being protected, would be
subjected to severe hours of labour. He trusted, therefore, that
the ten hours' Bill would not be prominently put forward now ;
but whether it was to be brought for.vard now, or at
any other time, he should protest against it, on the ground
that it would be doing injury to the manufacturers of the
country in a great degree, but ten-fold injury to those
for whose benefit it was intended to be enacted. In bringing
Pee subject forward,he put out of consideration altogether the in-
terests of trade, and looked only at the question with reference
to the interests of the children and the oper :tires themselves.
This had been called protection. He denied that it was so ;
and, as regarded the operatives, lie considered it most tyrannical.
'rho capital and industry of the country would find their way
to foreign lands, and those oho think themselves advocates for
the cause of the operatives, would, when it is too late, find
their grievous error. They did not at present find it easy to
compete with foreign manufacturers—how much more diffi-
cult then will it be when the capital and machinery of Great
B:iteie shall have found their way to foreign shores?
--( Hear, hear.) Then the great mass cf the working
classes would seek, but in rain, for employment, and it would
nut do to tell them, when theywere ceavinss for bread, that the
law might then be repealed. He did not think it the opinion of the
operatives themselves, that they were anxious for the proposi-
tion put forward by those who found it their interest to
come up to London, and to he band in glove with Mem-
bers of Parliament.—( ilear, hear.) The proposition that they
could obtain for ten hours labour the wages of twelve hour's
work was so absurd that no man echo knew the condition
of the working classes, and the feelings of the manufacturers,
could do otherwise than laugh at and condemn it. If it was
tire desire of the House to call upon the Government
to enforce the law, why, of course, the Government
would act in o'eedience to that decision. But in his opinion
they would certainly have great reason to regret the adoption
of such a course. He had no wish to open this factory ques-
tion ; but if Hon. Members proposed amendments, he would
not shrink from his duty, but would oppose the amendments
in every stages and he now called upon the House to support
him in setting this question at rest.
Lord ASHLEY did not often trespass on the attention of
the House ; and after his defeat in 1833, he had care-
fully abstained from coming before the House. He had
asked no questions, he had moved for no returns, end he
had determined to give the Bill introduced by his Majesty's
government a fair trial. —( Hear, hear.) But his Majesty's
Government had done the reverse. Hear, hear.) So far
from giving their own Bill a fair trial, that having brought in
a measure to come into operation by a certain time,
within nine days of that time, his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Poulett Thomson) came down to that House, and gave
notice that he would bring in a Bill for the repeal of one of
the clauses of the Bill, and for the reformation of his own le-
gislation.—( Hear.) The main ground of this reformation was,
the report of the Inspectors, for the House had no other evi-,
dence on which to regulate their conduct. The only question
now for the House to discuss was, whether they would, by
their solemn decision, say that 12. hours of labour was the best
limit to which children of all ages, from 9 to 13, were to be
subjected ? This was the only point of discussion, and to that
he would keep. He was asking nothing new—nothing but that
which the House by a large majority declared to be permanent.
The Right Hon. Gentleman seid that the only object he had
in view was the good of the children. He ( Lord A.) only
doubted whether the alteration proposed by his Right lion.
Friend would work good. 'His Right Hon. Friend also
said that 30,000 children would be dismissed from em-
ployment, if the clause this Bill sought to repeal came
into operation. He had not such opportunity as his
Right Honourable Friend of learning what would be the
probable effect of this clause ; but he had taken great pains
to learn the result of its operation, and he could state, with
all humility, as the result of his inquiries, that this dismissal
of children was absolutely impossible. The Noble Lord
then proceeded at great length to refer to various parts
of the evidence taken before the Factory Commissioners,
to show that the children were unable to endure such
long hours of labour as those proposed by the present Bill.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had given a pledge that children
from twelve to thirteen should not be employed for the num-
ber of hours a day during which the Bill before the House
allowed them to be employed. Would the country be satis-
fied that the Right Hon. Gentleman had redeemed that pledge
when they found that those poor children had enjoyed the pro-
, mise for two years and a half, but the performance for only
nine months? But it was said that the interests of the master
manufacturers required the change. By the Act regulating
negro labour it was provided that the negroes should work only
forty-five hours in the week. What , would be said if his
Majesty's Ministers were to come down to the House and de-
clare that the planters stated that they could not go on unless
the negroes were compelled to work for twelve hours a day
instead of eight? He ( Lord Ashley) confessed that there
was something in the Bill beyond what he had stated which
excited his suspicions. Why was it that the Right Hon.
Gentleman proposed but one amendment to the existing
law ? All the reports and statements to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman bad referred enforced the necessity of seve-
ral amendments. Of those amendments that now proposed
was not the most prominent. Among other things it had been
said that it was found absolutely necessary to violate
the existing Act. Why, the same supposed necessity would
continue if this Bill were to pass. On this and other grounds,
he very much feared that the -Right Hon. Gentleman's
Bill was merely put forth as a kind of feeler. He was appre-
hensive that if that Bill were passed, it would, at a future pe-
riod, be argued, " Having repealed so much of the law, the
House, in consistency, must consent to proceed further." In
confirmation of this opinion he (Lord Ashley) adverted to the
evidence before the Committee on the state of manufactures
and commerce of Mr. William Rathbone Greig, of Man-
chester, who stated that after all the attempts at legislation
on the subject had failed, he had no doubt the mill-owners
would be found to concur in the resolution not to work the
children employed by them much more than twelve hours in
the day. He repeated, therefore, that he could not help sus-
pecting the present proposition was merely a feeler. Now,
although he hoped that he was not improperly pertinacious,
he felt it to be his duty, and in fact a matter of conscience,
however ready he might be to surrender the law, not to sur-
render the principle. If any Member of his Majesty's Go-
vernment would say that he was prepared to provide a substi-
tute for the regulation which the present Bill went to repeal,
he (Lord Ashley) would withdraw his opposition to the Bill,
and allow it to go to a second reading. But if not, he should
certainly persevere in his opposition. He would now, there-
fore, move, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second
time this day six months; inasmuch as there being only a
choice of evils, he preferred inconveniencing the masters to
inflicting cruelty on the children.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. POULTER seconded the Noble Lord's amendment.
The absence of all petitions on the subject was a complete
answer to all the anxieties and apprehensions which the
Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade had ex-
pressed on the subject. The evil was that mill-owners were
running a race of competition, to which the interests of the
poor children were to be sacrificed. Having been deserted
by their natural protectors, it became the duty of the House
to stand in loco parentutri. That such excessive labours as
that required of them was not necessary, was proved by
several instanees, and especially by the case of a factory in
Bradford, in which 1,763 persons were employed, 616 of
whom were under eighteen years of age ; and yet only ten
hours' attendance was required from each, one hour of which
was allotted to instruction—an admirable example, and one
which ought to be generally followed. Instead of asking the
House to reduce the existing law, the Right Honourable
Gentleman ought to require its enforcement. At present it
was grossly violated. He knew nine factories in one town in
which it was grossly violated. In those factories they had
compelled the children to siork on Grad Friday. There was

a clause in the existing Act which provided that the children
should have eight half-holidays in the year. Now, it such a
day as Good Friday was taken from the children, what chance
was there that they would be allowed any of those half-holi-
days? In some factories means were taken to evade the law,
by making children look older than they were. Children of
eleven years of age were made to look as if they were thir-
teen. These things ought to be looked to, and the law be en-
forced, not relaxed. If there wete not inspectors enough,
let the number be increased, let their visits be more frequent,
and let those visits be made at times when they were not ex-
pected. The effect of excessive labour on young females es-
pecially, destined to be the mothers of families, was very per-
nicious. It endangered their health, and produced distortion
and debility. Baron Humboldt declared that in a million of
savages lie did not see a single deformed person. How diffe-
rent was the case in our manufacturing districts ! In almost
every case, personal deformity was acquired, not original.
Whenever the laws of nature were violated, she revenged her-
self by gradually deteriorating large classes of the people.
The education of these unfortunate children ought to be
more attended to. Unless previously educated, it was im-
possible to bring together young people of both sexes, with-
out demoralization. And yet, at the time most important
for their moral and religious instruction, they were left
without a chance of improvement, Luring the week they
had no time, and on Sundays they were too much ex-
hausted to attend any school. He was a great friend to
political reforms; but political reforms should always be
accompanied by the moral education of the people. If not,
those reforms would be misused, and would be turned to
evil. It was on that ground alone that he had supported the
political reforms which had taken place during the last few
years. It was in the hope that the privileges which those re-
forms conferred upon the people, they would be taught to use
beneficially to themselves. He trusted the House would never
consent to the Bill proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He (Mr, Poulter) was no politician on the present occasion.
He was much attached politically to his Majesty's present Go-
vernment ; but he was much more attached to the poor factory
children.—( Hear, hear. )

Mr. GI SBORNE was desirous of stating the views which
he entertained on this subject. He greatly admired the tem.
perate and candid manner in which the Noble Lord had ex-
pressed his sentiments respecting it, and he trusted that he
(Mr. Gisborne) should be actuated by the same spirit, and
give no utterance to any party feeling or sarcasm. It was ne-
cessary to consider what was the existing state of the law.
He agreed with his Right 'Hon. Friend that it was only on
the ground that the existing law had the effect of turning out
of work all the children who were between 12 and 13 years of
age, that the proposed Bill should be acceded to. It was a
fact, however, that the system of relays, on which so much
expectation had been built, had failed. Not more than 5 per
cent. of the children had been so employed. The simple
question was, whether, if the existing regulations operated
well with respect to children from the age of ten to eleven,
and from the age of eleven to twelve, they should not be ap-
plied to children from the age of twelve to thirteen, who would
otherwise be turned out of employment, with the exception of
about five per cent. It was well known that from Bucking-
hamshire and other agricultural districts, many families had re-
moved into manufacturing districts, with a view of obtaining
employment for their children. It was also well known that
children in the factories, from twelve to thirteen years of age,
could frequently earn from four to seven shillings a week each.
HoW would the inducement for persons in the agricultural
districts to romove into the manufacturing districts, for
the purpose of obtaining employment for their children,
be reduced, if the law which occasioned the dismissal of so
many children of twelve years of age were continued? To
accede to the amendment of the Noble Lord would be to
prevent the removal of families to which he had alluded
being beneficivi to either party. Much mere misery, there-
fore, would be created by prohibiting than by allowing chil-
dren from twelve to thirteen years of age to work twelve
hours a day. The amount of misery so produced was so great,
that the House ought to pause before it continued it. On
these grounds he should cordially assent to the second reading
of the Bill.

Mr. BENETT could never for a moment admit that any
loSs which the manufacturers might sustain ought to be put in
comparison wish injury to the health and morals of the chil-
dren employed in the manufactories. Much was said of the
danger of throwing so many children of that age out of em-
ployment. How could such a danger exist, wen new facto-
ries were starting up in every quarter, and such a rivalship
was created among thorn? On the contrary, he believed that
at present children of the age in question could earn more
in eight hours than they formerly did in twelve. Nothing, in
his opinion, could be more fallacious, unjustifiable, and wicked
than to consider wealth, even in a great commercial nation
like England, as that which, under any circumstances, ought
to be put in comparison with the health and morals of the
people.—( Hear, hear. )
Dr. BO WRING gave the Hon. Member for Wiltshire all
honour for his sympathy with, and interference in favour of,
the labouring population. But if it appeared that the Hon.
Gentleman's opposition to the Bill before the House would
be injurious instead of beneficial, then that opposition be-
came unjustifiable. Now the fact was, that every de-
scription of interference, so far from ameliorating always
deteriorated the condition of those in whose behalf it was
exercised. The country of Europe in which the labouring
population were in the most healthy and prosperous state
was Switzerland. Half the labourers in that country were
the possessors of the land they tilled. Their condition re-
solved the great question of free trade, the principles of
which, after all, must be applied, in order to solve all difficul-
ties of this kind in legislation. The assertion that the children
in the manufacturing districts were comparatively uninstructed
was unfounded. No lion. Member who compared the child-
ren in the manufacturing towns with the children in the agricul-
tural districts but must see the superiority of the former.—
(No, no.) He repeated that the town children were undoubt-
edly the more instructed, the more intellectual, the more
virtuous.—(A laugh.) Let those who doubted the superiority
of the morals of the manufacturing to the morals of the agricul-
tural districts look at the bastardy returns, and they would be
convinced of the fact.

Mr. BROTHERTON considered it to be the bounden
duty of the Legislature to regard in all their proceedings
the physical, the moral, and the intellectual condition of the
great mass of the people; and he could never believe that the
prosperity of this or of any country could depend on the con-
tinued violation of the principles of justice and humanity.—
( Hear.) Let any one who was well acquainted with the subject
get up and say that the number of hours of working proposed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman's Bill was not too much. He
knew a good deal of the matter, and he said unequivocally that
the labour was too much for children to bear.—(Hear.)
When they considered that 400,000 or 500,000 persons were
labouring from half-past five or six o'clock in the morning till
eight or nine o'clock at night, and this, not upon a few particu-
lar occasions only, but day after day, week after week, and
year after year, he asked whether any person professing the
Christian religion would stand up as the advocate of such a
system, or would express a wish that such a state of things
should continue ?—( Hear, hear.) He begged the House to
consider how frightful that state of society must be in which
so many hundreds of thousands of human beings were regarded
merely as machines, or instrumenis of labour, out of which the
utmost possible degree of exertion should be extorted. Of
what benefit was constant employment if opportunities were
not afforded to them of moral and religious instruction, in or-
der that they might become good men and good women.—
( Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a Bill which was brought
into Parliament in the year 1815, by the late Sir Robt. Peel,
whose memory was held in grateful remembrance by the great
mass of the labouring classes in the manufacturing districts.
The object of that Bill was to limit the hours of labour for all
persons working in factories to ten hours and a half a day.
But the late Sir Robert Peel had, in 1815, and for many
succeeding years, to struggle with the same difficulties
as those who were friendly to a like humane measure were
compelled to contend against now. He (Mr. Brotherton)
was a master spinner at that time, and, he believed, he stood
almost or quite alone in Manchester in rendering assistance to
those who, with the late Sir R. Peel, were endeavouring to
accomplish these benevolent intentions. With the exception
of himself all the master spinners of Manchester were opposed
to the measure. What was the consequence ? Sir Robert
Peel was four years endeavouring to accomplish what he de-
signed, and at last, in 1819, he succeeded only in carrying a
Bill which limited the period of labour to twelve hours a day,
or 72 hours a week for all children under the age of 16 years.
It was found, however, in the course of a very short time, that
that part of the Bill which limited the application of the gene-
ral provisions of the Act to children under sixteen years of
age, was likely to be evaded, and subsequent experience
showed that it was evaded. The consequence of this was that
in 1825 another Bill upon the subject was introduced and car-
ried, limiting the hours of labour to sixty-nine in the course of
the week ; and in the year 1831 another Act was passed, called
Sir John Hobhouse's Act, and which, for many reasons, he was
always disposed to consider the very best Act that had ever
been passed upon the subject. One of its chief recommen-
dations was its simplicity—it was easily understood, and could
not eFsily. be evaded. That Act raised the age of persons
working in factories in the day to eighteen years, and prohi-
bited any person under the age of twentv-one from working
in the night. The fault of Sir John HObhouse's Bill was,
that i▪ t applied only to persons employed in cotton factories—
but its effects, wherever it was applied, were found to be
most beneficial.—( Hear.) The cotton factories called, per-
haps, most loudly for the adoption of some measure of that
descri▪
ption, but at the same 'time great excesses and many
abuses were heard of in the woollen trade, and also in the silk
manufactories ; and the late Mr. Sadler afterwards introduced
a Bill which applied to all these alike. It was not, however,
till the year 1833 that the existing Act was brought forward,
and although he resisted some of the clauses of that measure,
he must still claim the merit of consistency in opposing the
Bill which was now brought forward, for altering one of its
most important provisions. He told Lord Althorp, when the
Bill of 1833 was under consideration, that the relay system
would never do; and as the Bill passed through Committee
he pointed out the provisions which lie was satisfied (and sub-
sequent experience showed he was correct) would
be evaded.
It could not be denied that the Bill had totally failed in many
of the great objects for which it was intended. By the re-
turns it appeared that in the course of the very short time
during which the law had been in operation, no less than 250
masters of mills had been convicted under the Act, and paid
penalties to an amount of upwards of 1,000/.—(.liear, hear.)
When it was considered that these masters of =Ls were men
of higher education, and as one would suppose of superior
moral feelings, to those whom they employed, was it not dis-
graceful to find them violating an Act of Parliament so
grossly and so constantly as these persoas appeared to have
done ?—( Heal, hear.) He repeated that .he considered such
conduct most disgraceful.—( Hear.) In the m--jo..ity of in-
stances in which the penaltii s of the Act had been enforced,
it was for the offence of compelling the children to work for
more than twelve hours a day. If the masters were guilty of

such infractions ei the law, 17ew •.(_,,1.,id tii,-”: eKr,--,..,.. = -
and comparative) uneducated avii:ian to re7.peet la tiIC per'
visions .
the
visions of laws which probably they did not distinctly andel -
stand ?—( Hear, hear.) How could the Legislature expect,.an,
laws to be obeyed by the poor, when they were hour.l. a
to
daily violated by the rich ?—( Hear, bear.) He never lined to
object to any measure unless he thought it was in his power
...
suggest a remedy. 'This then was his remedy, that for all
persons employed in fact.rins 1;1;--i.er the age trC =wnnty-ene,
there should be one uniform period of ieYour.---f. Hear, hear.)
The system on which the large factories ;vas conducted was
such, that persons of all ages and all constitutions, old acrd
young, weak and strong, must all necessarily work together
at one and the same time. Let the Legislature, therefore,
fix upon some period of labour within the range and comp
ass
of human strength, and make it applicable to all alike ; or
at all events, to all persons under the age of twenty-one._
He though that the simplest and best law that could be passed
upon the subject would be one by which the period of labour
should be limited to ten hours a-day for persons of all ages,
men, women, and children.—( Hear, hear.) But when any,.
proposition of this kind was made, whenever the voice of
humanity interposed between the master and the labourer, the
House was assailed with the cry of " beware of foreign corn-
petition—if you reduce the period of labour, you put a fatal
restriction upon the British manufacturer, and render him
incapable of competing with the manufactures of the Conti-
nent." Let the House remark how this assertion was borne
r
out by the fact. At the time of the passing of the late Sir
Robert Peel's Act, and in 1819, the exportation of colts
twist from this country amounted annually to 18,000,000 lbs..
The period of labour was again reduced in 1825, and than, or
course, all idea of competing with foreign nations was at once
abandoned. Yet the year afterwards the exportation of cotton
twist amounted to 45,000,000 lbs.—( Hear, hear.) Again, in
1833, when a further reduction of time was effected, the saute
argument was used, and nothing but positive and immediate_
ruin could fail on the heads of the devoted manufacturers of
this country. What was the fact ? In 1834, the exportation
of cotton twist amounted to 76,000,000 lbs. —( Cheers. ) Facts
proved, then, that tilt), had nothing to fear from foreign corn-
petition.--( Hear, hear.) He differed from the Hon. Member
for Kilmarnock (Dr. Bowring) and •others, who said—" only
repeal the corn alws, and all laws bearing upon free trade .ini.
1 labour,- and then the people will be much better off, and vat
I never be so unmercifully worked."—( Hear, hear.) All the
inspectors agreed that if there were not legislative interference,
the children employed in manufactories would be overworkea•
—( Hear, hear.) And when free labour was talked about, let
it never be forgotten that the labour of persons in these manu-
factories was not free.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Rely
Gentleman, the President of the Board a Trade, in the
course of the observations he made in moving the second
raiding, threw out an intimation which he (Mr. Brotberton)
was most anxious to refute. The Right Hon. Gentleman
said that the reason why the operatives wished for this rest ric
tion was, that they might have twelve hours wages for tel,l
hours work. It might, with just as much justice, be said
that the masters, when they violated the law, and kept the
children at work beyond the time prescribed by the Legisla-
tion, were anxious to get twelve or fourteen hours' work for
ten hours' wages.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The'faet.
was, that the Hou_sc was not aware of the great temptation
that there ever was for over-working these persons.
To man/.
master-manufacturers an additional hour a-day obtained from
each of the persons he employed would make a difference of
no less than 100/. a -week. Thus an enormous advantage was
gained by those who violated the law, and the honest manu-
facturer was left without a chance of competing with them'
—( Hear.) This would necessarily be the case till some uni-
form time was adopted for persons of all ages, and some effec-
tual steps taken to see that the provisions of the law were r,`,-,
gidly carried into execution.—( Hear.) If the present 13'"
for amending the last Act were passed, he had no doubt that
many mills would he found working sixteen and seventeen
hours a day. Persons engaged in these manufactories wer°
generally desirous of making rapid fortunes, and the Legisla:
tore might as well expect to extract oil from granite as to ow
tain anything from the humanity of the worshippers of mon-
mon.—( Hear.) He begged to bear his humble be.t honest
testimony against the existing system.
Mr. G. F. YOUNG Viought that if the Bill now brought
before them were to be entertained for a moment, that
those by whom it was supported we, e bound by conclu-
sive evidence to show that the period }bey and which the
exten-
sion of protection would be prejudicial was exactly twelve
,
yea: s.—( Hear.)
Mr. M. PHILIPS supported the measure proposed • by, bil
Right Hon. Colleague. The fact was that they must- des.
with things as they found them. Amelioration, he admitted,
ought to be carried to the utmost practicable extent; but for
the sake of nominal ameliorations he was not disposed to ad-
here to a law which would take the bread out of the moialls°f
thousands. He had seen a letter, written by the Hon. Mein'
ter for Ashton-under- Lyne, in which it was stated that if I""
thirteen-year-old clause continued, 20,000 or 30,000 children,
between the ages of 12 and 13 would be thrown cut of cm'
ployment.
Sir R. INGLIS congratulated his Majesty's Government
that they had at last got a gentleman who was connected wit''
t
the manufacturing interest to rise and support their present
proposition ; far only two Hon. Members connected with that;
interest had as yet supported it. He hoped that the divisioll
to-night would be in proportion to the nu.nber of speakers oil'
each side of the question.—( Hear, hear.) On what grotilw
was it that the House was now called upon to deprive children
under the age of 13 years of that protection which the preseliAt
law gave them ? Mere assertion. There was no other grew
whatever.
Mr. AINSWORTH supported the motion. It had been
said that no petitions had been presented from the m%nuf
turers. That might be the case; but there were several de-
putations from the manufacturing districts now in London'
who united in stating that serious injury would accrue
to the®and their property if the amended Bill of his Right 11°11'
Friend the President of the Board of Trade should not b°
carried.
Dr. LUSHINGTON remembered Mr. Canning sayings
when it was urged that great danger must arise from personii
legislating for the West Indies who were not acquainted with
West India society, that they might as well tell him that he wa:
not to take part in legislation respecting the mines of Corryr
wall, because he had never travelled through the town :at
Truro. The Hon. Member for Kilmarnock had adrooar, t
the principle of free trade, as applicable to labour; but ei";
was the principle of free trade, he should like to know, riht.'n.lo
.came to be applied to children between twelve and thilleiii
years of age ?—( Hear, hear.) Free trade was this, where
t,
parties were capable of judging for themselves, and of protlotil
ing their own interests, in that case they had a 11.1.
right to say that the Legislature should not interfere with &ell
own discretion and judgment, as the interest of each individal
would induce him to adopt that course which, in the eon,
mustpromote the general prosperity. The question, thirdfor the House to consider was, would they or not a°
0_
legislative protection to those who were incapable of Prat_
tecting themselves? They had admitted the principle
n,,
ready by affording legislative protection to another ,'---
that could not protect themselves—namely the chifon.°Y;
sweepers. If the chimney-sweepers required protectrn.
would any man say that the children employed in 15nt
tories were less in need of it ? He defied the most arde, a
advocate of free labour to state that eleven hours and 4
half's labour to children under thirteen years• of age was 0!..
destructive of their morals and their health. The rules of r_.
litical economy were totally inapplicable to the present case.
They might be true as a general principle; but this was a t:.O
of exception, and did not admit of their application. r..
would ask his Right Hon. Friend whether he was not lee,
la ting for particular interests, rasher than for the
He agreed with the Hon. Member for the University of u_ fO,
ford, that the Bill brought forward in 1833 was the result of
compromise, and he therefore considered the present measure
to be a violation of the pledge given on that occasion.
factory
Mr. BAINES had been the whole of his life among t
there
general g0,..0d1i,
labourers ; and he would take upon himself to say that
was not a set of children in this kingdom better fed,rb.ee_t.t,,er
lodged, and more healthy than the children in the facto 1 "o_,
(Hear, and cries of " Ohl") Previous to his coming toot!
alle
don, he went to almost every factory in Leeds to
,in;
ert, in
what was the state of the health of the persons erar.o7 aim,
them, and if the House would give him credit for illdgc'hnifdren
partially, he would declare that he never saw a set of
sue
__4ll
who had more the appearance of great health and , Il.i'le
than those he then saw. He afterwards consulted It°
masters, to ascertain whether they wished the time.
extended, or the age of the children, as now req
lurthe nega-
law, abridged ; and the answer he received was to
parents
0_
f thte
tive. lie also put the same questions to the parcer
re".
children employed in the factories, and the
ansawbourought
ceived from them was, " We think the hours of
children
ought
to be abridged one hour, and the age of the the of"
' to be reduced from twelve years to ten."
These
waderceosulted•
ocsaf
bl (labour
°otter
nions of the masters and the operatives whom
Mr. POTTER supported the motion, and
Britain to " of
importation of cotton wool into Great ~_fl
condone
and
371,000 bales, while the importation and
siderable, Oa
France and other States of Europe was inco%ant.
In 18_3„,2,
the cotton manufacture of America quite insigni.fi
865,u°'
Britain was
the consumption of cotton wool in Great
173,000 bales,
bales; in the same year that of America was eroP
hobee her. v ed.
.tihsatvtos
eaorflyEdoubi,
2oof
oF,oroaone;emoa7k2in,4g6i3n baallle6s,46726d3ofhaloctsh,erheSint
what was imported into Great Britain only
seventeen
into Gres I
before, and two-third parts of what was imported
consumPtsl}
Britain in the same year of 1832. In 1835,
6 888 bales.
of the States of America had increased to 21_2
Europe to bay°
we suppose France and the other States of
°portion, ape
gaetevrisenteen Year!
increased their manufacture only in the samespar
t tes would be
the whole consumption of rival foreign
784,000 bales, while that of Great Britain
that in trrantY
mated at 944,673 bales. Thus it appear
had increased 00
years the foreign rival cotton manufacture,
ar four-fifth parr!!
much in amount as to consume in the last
)eed in Great .13 i
of the quantity of raw cotton wool that was used for 1835
like lire
d not,
tam during the same period. hhe ha tifse"
Sir JO HN ELLEY said that althoug
isitcd the inall s
Hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. Baines).
hve bad ever witnre.
turing towns lately, he could not say that . when. tb ru
d the
in them a redundancy of health.—( flear,.thesermon entroe he
was a scarcity of employment manyote'etel
Ontothe ,sub.)e„et'gre-
army, and having had some exyerte._ . is esti-
ct select - ten
Out of every 0
Id reject five
I cl: trice h
nadier. A recruiting officer won .
would never go to a manufacturing district
, in a rut** is Hear -)
men in a manufacturing district, , --(for the
would not reject a greater not an
advocate
at too
Mr. CHARLES VILLIERS
wasmany hours a daY,
__°rcsaries
employment of the children for tooh
uties on the l'ecra—a to
' He would repeal t e
arable the poor
early- an age.
and thus
of life, especially on corn,
Cheers.) • i -000
proportion than
work as long as he pleased.—( . a
5..___,,00 of
he dis,
one in ten.
Colonel THOMPSON felt in Tler-vu.,„ci he sh Too
cue to oP
something should oe •
heir oreeorr
please somebody ; but unlesssfsor
leaYO: tbiugs is t
difficulty, fearing that whichever way h
his opinion, he should vote

S
e after all. being meray between tweedle-
u m and tweedle-doe. -7 'L-uehter )
f Er.e
Mr .
_. • tel. believed the general impression on the part
mastersa that some Bill was necessary. The only
9uestioll then was, 'what kind of Bill should it he; should it be
framed for the protection of the children, or for the protection
orrifetrhe master's ? He would beg lion. Gentlemen to consider
the effects and consequences of making children work
ttvelve ely
hours a day, or, in point of fact, fourteen hours a day ;
of their
without allowing them a single hour the improvement
e taeir minds, or for recreation.—( Hear, hear.) These chil-
ate °also, be it recollected, during the twelve hours they were
engaged in the factories, had to walk not less than 18 miles a
ti.aY.--(No, no, and hear.) He could not help feeling that
sßight Hon. Gentleman had in the Present measure made
ore °", to a greater extent than he ought to have done, the
an of the master manufacturers. [The latter part of the
speech of the lion. Gentleman was utterly inaudible, in conse-
quence of the cries of " Question," and " Divide.")
nuAlr• ROLLING said that gross aspersions had been cast
the manufacturers, and they had most unjustly been
itrged with a want cf humanity, but he thought it
toss a
false humanity which would subject the children
du the misery and starvation to which they must be re-
x, ,-cel, if the proposal of those who supported the views of the
I,"°'ale Lord (Ashley) were acceded to. The effect of it would
ueto throw 35,000 children out of employment. lie himself
teill4l°Yed 1,400; and if this motion were acceded to, 250 of
ein Would be deprived of employment.
boasted
FIELDEN said the Hon. Member for Bolton had
of the superior condition of the factory hands of
Poitou over other classes living in that borough ; but be-
e lie (Mr. Fielden) would listen to the comparison, he
rmust know what was the condition of the people against
ota the Hon. Member compared the factory hands.
Com-
mittee°°l, he .( Mr. Fielden) happened to recollect that a
cf this House had sat for two years to examine into
the, condition of the hand-loom weavers, and as a member
(4 that Committee he (Mr. Fielden) could assert that it
hand Proved that one-half of the inhabitants of Bolton were
'artd-loom weavers, and, moreover, that they and their fa-
!Mies lived throughout the year upon an average sum of
Itvopence three farthings a head per erclay.—(oh, oh.) Why
t''.e (Mr. Fielden) knew this fact; it was proved to the sa-
Pfaction of the Committee ; let Hon. Members contra-
',let it if they can.—( Hear, hear.) But, if this be the
etiasi.e, what becomes of the comparison; it was good for no-
„e lug; for it was only comparing the factory hands of Bolton
th a large body of the poorest possible community. He
and nothing, therefore, in favour of factory labour at Bolton;
eed he ( Mr. Fielden) would say that so futile a comparison
vught not to sway the House for a moment, and then he
Would„ put it to Hon. Members whether they had not heard
i.,"°4111 this evening to determine them to resist the Bill of
./4"e Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade. That Right
thrown
Gentleman had said that 35,000 children would be
'grown out of work if this Bill did not pass. He (Mr. F.)
Was convinced that not 35 would be thrown out of work by
.11"i:twiner, out the Bill. He felt satisfied of it as a manufac-
wer.—( Hear, hear.) Again, the House was told that the
manufacturers would suffer by yielding to the Noble Lord's
(4811 lee's) amendment. This was the worst appeal that
could be made to the House ; for he was sure that if there was
!' °Park of humanity in it, the House would never set private
Interests against the life and happiness of these poor little
overworked children. At any rate he (Mr. Fielden) as a ma-
nufacturer, end a large one too, would say that he would throw
Thibanufactures to the winds rather than he would balance for a
duty
Great cheering.) But the House would do its
"eu!Y ; it would not drive hack these thirty-five thousand little
children to labour incessantly for twelve hours a day, with an
addition of the time they often had to spend in walking to and
fromc their homes. It surely would not do this ! Allusion
e
Teen made in the course of this debate to the statement
°1 Mr. as to the number of miles that a little child
hag to w.. ik in a factory. It was stated at Ma ea miles. Now
"e recollected that a meeting of Members of Parliament and
'3l oratives at Manchester last December, similar calcula-
tions had been brought to the attention of himself and the
•
Members
e. of Parliament present, by the operatives. One had
made a statement, showing that a child in one mill walked 24
'Ties in the day! merely walking after the machine. He
(
•Fielden) was surprised at this statement, and he ob-
aerved that few could believe it possible. He (Mr. Fielden),
however, was not satisfied until he had tried its correctness ;
and, therefore, when he went home, he (Mr. F.) went into his
°a`n 3, factorand with the clock before him, he watched a child at
•
her work, and having watched her some time, he then calcu-
lated the distance she had to go in a day, and to his surprise
found it to be nothing short of twenty miles.—(Loud
ei,"eers.) Talk to him of lightness of factory work after this !
bs' "3 monstrous —( Hear, hear.) And yet it is this that the
`4,15• Member for Bolton wanted. He ( Mr. Fielden) called
°Au the Government, on the contrary, to enforce the present
Litt, and not attempt to repeal it ; to send more inspectors
down into the cotton districts, and have it put in force rigidly.
All the workpeople worked harder than they ought to do ;
but the children were unmercifully treated. The inspectors
l'ead given their opinion as to what quantity of work a
Vtild could bear, and thay had referred also to medical men
is the districts where they were employed. But he (Mr. F.)
ttould like to know who would value such evidence as this
collected )),
the inspectors for anything when compared with
that of such men as Sir Anthony Carlisle, Dr. Ferro, Mr.
Green, Dr. Blundell, and the other eminent men who had
Pronounced our factory system to be nothing short of infanti-
e"le•—( Hear.) There had never yet beets -an efficient Act
rt Parliament on this subject ; and if he had to bring in one,
fa_s.hould not allow more than ten hours' labour for any age in
;,"tortes. We were told of foreign competition ; lie believed
th 18be the greatest humbug in the world.—( Hear, hear.) But
Was g political economy." Now, we had been warned by
w-ne of the able physicians examined by the Committee, that
4.° have no right to trench on " vital economy" to support
Political econorey"—( Hear)—and he would say that if this
e Ouse would pass this Bill and make these poor little children
(Nts'ra,haek into slavery, then it wanted another reforming.--
ear, hear.) But what do the political economists say_
ben the Noble Marquis (Chandos) brought on his motion
out agricultural distress, they said it would not signify if
r''cgland did not grow a bushel of wheat or barley, so prospe-
rous were manufactures, and so completely were we indepen-
dent of the land ; and yet it seems that we cannot goon in ma-
nufactures without working these poor little children for
Z'aire hours a day.—(Hear.) That was our prosperity
vs (Mr. Fielden 's) fear was, that this was only a begin.
e'g, of a total repeal of Lord Althorp's Act, and that the
I, act Hon. Gentleman would bring in a Bill next year to re-
-4:41 that Act. His opinion as a manufacturer, and as one of
toruie feelings of humanity, was that Lord Althorp's Act ought
bi oie maintained and enforced, and, if it was repealed by this
t;g,s vote Bandh Mr. Fielden) would go on working for a
(",itours he would never cease while he had life.—
ho
neer_..
s ) We had always been told that shortening the hours
labour of these poor children would ruin us. When the
to;rs were ninety hours a week, eighty-nine hours, seventy-
sixty-eight hours—at every time when we wanted
voeal reduced—our opponents have said the lessening the time
141 d ruin us ; and yet we have shortened them, and we are
the
..,ucw that we are more prosperous than ever.—(Great
tieter'"g•) Then he asked the House if such predictions were
kifalse, and he implored it to adopt the amendment of the
thr°le Lord.—[The Hon. Member was very much cheered
pgbout his speech, and at the close of it.
keslre R. PEEL wished to separate the appeal which the Hon.
jude-wer for Oldham had made to the reason and deliberate
pap.rtient of the House, from that which he had made to their
as the : an appeal, he must say, however, which, standing
iote e "on. Gentleman did, free from the imputation of all
(4 rcoted motives, came from him with peculiar grace.—
%tear, hear.) There was no speech that had been delivered
Ina night, however creditable it was to 'the Hon. Gentle-
tire who pronounced it, that had so great an effect in convin-
-404 "Liu, of the impropriety of acceding to this motion, as the
1-10„e" of the Hon. Member for Oldham ( Mr. Fielden). The
toil :; Gentleman had stated that the Act did not prohibit
thaturen from being worked in relays ; but he himself admitted
143,a there was an insuperable objection to this system of re-
st ; inasmuch as he stated that no child under thirteen years
tio4-ge could work more than eight hours a day. The clues-
to t,a*ith him was, whether he should resist any amendment
til,tLe Bill or not. Now, although he was not prepared to say
Would vote for the precise amendment proposed by the
101, t lion. Gentleman, for he thought the proposition ought
the ;lye been carried much further—thinking, as he did, that
cilite4y, as it stood was inoperative in many respects—he felt
for alt anon to send the Bill into Committee. If he now voted
t4pp,Lere proposition of amendment, he reserved to himself the
t._
of
-tight d proposition
proposing such alterations in the law as the
he di., eeni expedient; but if, on the general ground, that
Ne,,ti, Lot think the ,Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition
1:41417 enough, he resisted it in the present stage, lie at
Itt ()tint his name to the conclusion that the present law was
it°i„ °Pe, and that, as such, it ought to be continned. Well,
atts - the course he proposed adopting, was he acting for the
lithe of he
• •
at , manity ? His conscience assured him that he was.
route?"ad
tthe Hon. Member for Oldham and others told the
-"tes Why, that under the present system false certifi-
ki eite:feta,ge were constantly given, and that through these
bec'nlidren professing to be twelve years of age, though
goo. '„t3• under eleven, were allowed to work as adults. The
CaaeMember for Oldham stated that he knew of 3,000 such
"act. 1° the districtof the country with which he was con-
_d.
gillgs Now, should he be satisfied with such a state of
1)0t, tindoubtedlv he ought not; and certainly he would
4111 e fi'ut even the lion. Member for Oldham himself, firmly
tt11:41 j'Pcsed the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion, had preyed
k not satisfied with the law as it stands. He told
'‘'e that the practical effect of the Act was to reduce the
%te r of .
thmtber se working hours to eight, while, in his opinion, the
t at he ,nould be ten. The Hon. Member told the House
tj bt ~tnought an eight hours' Bill bad, and that there ought
ktlit it;,,assed a ten hours' Bill. But though he thought the
a,t;(l t; ours' Bill bad, he would keep it in its present state;
th dol'o-eworse it was, the better for his Furpose ; because, by
he knew he should compel the Ministers to call for
kt4tire he approved of. Now in this species of legis-
iery for 13' not concur.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
licatiioeut`el,huM was not alone. Others supported him ; and
Aared ',U the list stood the lion. Member for Hull. That
th'sPute er had, in a would-be spirit of facetiousness, com-
- " about the hours ot child-labour in factories to
Ire %pi " The difference there be
aliould It Tweedle-dam and Tweedle-dee."
Lt " say, that had the Hon. Member enacted the
avet cedle-dum-b on the present occasion, he would
if! I.4'n townte more wisdom.— Hear, and a laugh.) But to
kuiestsi,,ine subject under consideration. He thought that
ate effee..°_cs were to be imposed at all, they should be final
'lve• Was the existires law, as regarded those re-
tlehat tiise'.ll°ttod effective ? not.—( Hear, hear.)
to h, ',,was the course which should be taken ? Simply
doiet 0114.1 repeal that part of the law which appeared
"R 80Judicially to the interests of all parties ; but while
, be Would render the remaining, details of the

measure what they were not now—operative and effective.
To leave the law as it now stood, he could not consent.
After reading the evidence before the House; and after,
through its instrumentality, convincing himself that the
major part of the restrictions which Parliament imposed
upon the employers of factory children, were daily and
openly violated, he could not, on the score of humanity,
leave the law as it stood.—( Hear, hear.) (The Right Hon.
Baronet here referred to extracts from the evidence of Drs.
Horner and Howell, the medical inspectors, to prove that
through the medium of false certificates the provisions of
the existing laws were constantly violated.) With such
evidence before him, he thought it necessary to adopt some
precaution against the cupidity of parents and masters. As
he understood the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman it
was this. That children under 12 years of age should conti-
nue subject to the present law (or, in other words, that the
period of labour should be eight hours), but that children above
12 years might be called on to work for sixty-nine hours a.
week, or twelve hours for five days, and nine for the sixth, being
Saturday. He thought that even with this amendment the
law would be in an unsatisfactory state, but feeling that it
was quite impossible to please all parties, and that the cure
was not quite as bad as the disease ; feeling, also, that the
existing law was not consistent with humanity ; he was will-
ing to entertain the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposal.—
( Hear, hear.)
Lord F. EGERTON said his intention was to vote in
favour of the original motion : but, following the example of
his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth, he would
not pledge himself to be confined by the precise terms of the
amendments the Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the
Board of Trade had in contemplation.
Mr. FRENCH said a few words in support of the amend-
ment, which, owing to the cries of " Question" and " Di-
vide," were inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that the original Factory Bill of
1833, called for great and considerable amendment; and if
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite were then proposing to
the House a Bill for the purpose of generally amending that
measure, he would have given him his support ; but when he
was called upon to amend the Bill in various of its details,
coupled with the condition that the amendment so to be made
should contain a clause subjecting children under thirteen
years of age to twelve hours' labour, he contended the ques-
tion then took a totally different shape, and his view being not
to repeal the clause, the repeal of which the Right Hon.
Gentleman views as indispensable, but to amend the other
parts of the Bill, which the Right Hon. Gentleman admits
arc objectionable, he felt it impossible to lend his support to
the proposition. They were told that great frauds were per-
petrated under the cloak of the existing law ; but in his
opinion, the opportunities for the commission of fraud
would be far more increased than diminished, by the adop-
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's proposition.—(Hear,
hear.) Under every view of the case, therefore, he felt
called upon to support the amendment of his Noble Friend.
Mr. WAKLE Y said 'it was evident that a conspiracy had
long existed to evade the provisions of the Factory Act, and
the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, instead
of endeavouring to enforce its provisions more effectually, now
came down with a Bill to destroy one of the most vital princi-
ples of that Act. He hoped and trusted that the House would,
upon every principle of sound justice and humanity, reject such
a proposition. _ _ _

.Mi. P. THONISON replied—He assured the House that
he was most anxious to co-operate with Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite in any measure likely to render the law on this subject
operative and effectual. If the Bill went into Committee, he
should be most willing to lend his best attention to any amend-
ments which might be proposed in respect to certificates, and
other regulations, to prevent deception and fraud.
The House then divided—
For the amendment 1 76
Against it

Majority in favour of the Bill --2
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and at
half-past one o'clock this morning the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS, M 479.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
five o'clock.

STAFFORD INDEMNITY BILL.

On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, this
Bill was read a third time and passed.

MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.

The Teignmouth Harbour, Edinburgh Poor, Forfar Rail-
way, Totness Roads, and other Bills, were brought up from
the Commons.
IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL.

Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY presented a petition,
signed by 180 inhabitants of Mallow, against certain clauses in
the Irish Municipal Bill. -
CLYDE NAVIGATION.

Earl ROSEBERY presented a petition from Stirling,
against this Bill.
SABBATH OBSERVANCE.

Lord RADNOR presented some petitions on this subject.
The Lord CHANCELLOR moved for certain amended
returns respecting the Court of Chancery.

OFFICE OF CHANCELLOR.

Lord LYNDHURST begged to ask the Noble Lord
whether any alteration was to be made in the retiring pension
of the Lord Chancellor in tho new Bill, 'as his duties were to
be separated from the judicial office ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was not pro-
posed to make any alteration. The retiring pension of the
Chief Judge in Equity, was to be precisely the same
as the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS.—(IRELAND.)
The Order of the Day having been read, their Lordships
went into Committee on the Municipal Corporations (Ireland)
Bill.

Lord LYNDHURST rose for the purpose of moving some
verbal amendments to some of the clauses.

Clause 1 was agreed to.
On clause 2 being read,
Viscount MELBOURNE wished to trouble their Lord-
ships with a few observations relative to the clause which
had just been read. The Bill was intended to
provide payment for the Municipal Officers and in
deciding upon these amendments their Lordships were
deciding upon clause 5 and upon clause 22, which involved the
most important principles of the Bill.
.Their Lord-
ships themselves had agreed to an instruction to the
Committee which involved the principle of these amendments.
However, that instruction was not at all binding on the
Committee, and if their Lordships saw any reason to
adopt another course, they were not bound to persevere in
what might be pointed out to be erroneous. They were estab-
lishing a different principle in Ireland from that which had been
established in the towns in England. They were depriving
the Government of the assistance of a body to whom they
could refer, and whose weight and authority might assist
the Government.--( Hear.) They were adopting a totally
different system from that which had been recognized in
England; and omitting all topics which did not bear upon the
question, he would ask them whether they were willing to
part with the advantages which were likely to be derived from
local municipal government ? He thought that his Noble
friend, and all those who argued with him had indulged with
respect to this Bill—its appointment of local municipal officers,
and the frequency of elections—in great exaggeration. The evils
to which the Noble and Learned Lord alluded, were obvious
to all, and it could not be lamented too much if political
feeling existed in Ireland, and that it was increased by those
whose duty it was to temper and allay it.—(Hear, hear.)
He ( Lord Melbourne) could riot admit that the Municipal
Corporation Bill will make any material addition to that.—
( Cries of " Hear.") It had been stated it would pro,
duce political excitement, violent agitation, and end in
civil war. That civil war was a most convenient argu-
ment whenever any important change was proposed-
-whenever the tenor of a man's whole life was about
to undergo revision then came civil war. That was
also a most monstrous exaggeration, and the Bill could not
possibly be conceived to aggravate those evils which did un-
doubtedly exist in that country to the degree stated by the
Noble and Learned Lord.—( Hear.) There was one matter
which he had omitted to allude to, when he last addressed their
Lordships upon that subject. It had been stated that 9 Geo. IV.
contained previsions which would be used as a substitute for
present town councils. Now that Act if it had been once re-
jected would not be proposed again, and would therefore be
wholly inoperative ; and he could not see anything in these
amendments which would give that Act more effectual operation.
Upon these grounds, and under these circumstances, he
called upon their Lordships, on the general principle of justice,
upon the present state of the two countries, upon the important
principle of maintaining the connection between the two coun-
tries upon local conveniency, and the advantage of all con-
cerned—he called upon their Lordships to reject the amend-
ment which had been proposed.
Lord L YNDH UR ST perfectly agreed with the Noble Vis-
count, that when the Committee came to the clause mentioned
by him, that would be the proper time for discussing
the whole principle of the matter. He would refer in
a very few words to what had fallen from the Noble Viscount
as to the provisions of the 9th Geo. 4. The Noble
Viscount had tried to make out that Act to be one of no
great consequence—in fact, to be of no consequence, but he
had not referred to any facts to hear out his views of the case.
In opposition to what had been advanced by the Noble Vis-
count, he would refer their Lordships to the Report of the
Commissioners upon which this Bill was founded. The Noble
Lord then read a paragraph, which stated that the provisions
of the 9th of Geo. IV. had been most widely acted upon—
they were most beneficial, and could be introduced into places
which had not yet taken the benefit of them.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) With respect to what had fallen from the
Noble Viscount charging that side of the House and
himself, particularly, with using exaggerated language in
speaking of the elections of that country, be would
put it to any Noble Lord who r sided in that country, to say
whether it was possible for any language to exaggerate upon
such a subject. He would ask. their Lordships to look to
the report of the other House of Parliament, disclosing scenes
of outrage and violence, of which the inhabitants of this coun-
try could form no idea. That was the only answer he had to the
attacks of the Noble Viscount.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—As a Member of
that House, as connected with that country affected by
the Bill on the table, felt bound to offer a few words
to their Lordships. It was true the instruction was carried, and
was entitled to great weight, but it would be desirable their
Lordships should agree to some alteration to the amendments.
It was true the instruction to the committee was carried and
was entitled to great weight, but at the same time he hoped
Noble Lords opposite would pause and reflect before they
pressed their amendments to this Bill, and allow themselves to
be advised to make such alterations in them as would render
them a little more palateable to the wishes, and more accord-
ant with the spirit and feelings of this country. Their Lord.
ships ought to consider the state of the public mind upon
this question, and without compromising their own opinions,