The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-19 00:00:00

were paid in Great Britain, anti were not paid in Ireland,
to which Ireland might be fairly called on ,o contribute;
and then in the contemplation of such taxes to make
such grants as were required in peculiar exigencies,
whether they occurred in the west of Ireland, or whether
they occurred in the Highlands of Scotland, or in any
other part of the United Kingdom, from the Imperial
Exchequer. The proposal which the Government made
was founded upon the first of these two views; but upon
the proposition being made, nu amendment was moved
by Major Blackall that there should be a property-tax,
instead of that which was proposed. There was a very
considerable division. The amendment was supported
by a great number of Irish Members, who were in favour
of that view; while, at the same time, I think many
explained afterwards that what they wished to infer was.
that they were against the rate in aid, and not in favour
of a property-tax.

Major 13eacxens.—Might I interrupt your Lordship.
The question was, whether a rate in aid should be fixed
upon all descriptions of property above a certain amount.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I quite admit that it might be con-
sidered that it was not in favour of an income. tax ; but
in subsequent debates that view of the question has been
very much pressed. Several gentlemen have said that
they should be ready to support an income and property
tax, if it was thought advisable to extend it to Ireland,
to be imposed upon the same persons and to the same
extent as it is in England, though they should not be
willing to agree to the rate in aid. I may mention
another suggestion which has been thrown out—indeed,
I think a division was taken on it in the [louse of Com-
mons—namely, that there might be a tax which would
not be completely an income and -property-tax, but
which would require contributions to be made from
the funds and from the salaries of persons
holding official situations, and not requiring any
contributions from trades end professicos. Now,
I should say, with regard to that proposition,
that it has been always held, I believe, from :the
first imposition of the income and property-tax by Mr.
Pitt in this country, and at all subsequent times, that
you can take nothing in the nature or a tax from the
public funds without a breach of faith, and that, there-
fore, the only way in which you can reach the public
funds is by imposing a tax upon all kinds of income—
income derived from the public funds as well as other
sources. Therefore, whatever might be the expediency,
and whatever might be the reasons in favour of such a
tax as I have mentioned, it is one which I think no Mi-
nister could propose for Ireland, indeed not for any part
ut the empire without immediately incurring on the part
of the fundholders an imputation of a breach of faith,
and such objections as would be impossible to over-
come. I therefore conclude that the alternative is
either a rate in aid of the nature we have proposed,
or some such proposition as I see notice has been
given of by Mr. Herbert, the Member for the
county of Kerry. When we propose a rate
in aid, he proposes to leave out all the words
after the words " distressed unions in Ireland," in
order to add the words, " And in consideration thereof,
What an income and property tax be assessed on incomes
and property in Ireland not liable to income and pro-
perty tax under the Act 11th and 12th Victoria, chap-
ter 8." That is, that there should be a grant, and that
that grant should not be charged on a peculiar income
and property tax for Ireland, but as there is such a
grant to be made, the income and property tax should
be extended to Ireland. That I conceive is the meaning
of the proposition. Now, if this wars a general tax
affecting the United Kingdom, supposing the exigencies
of the public service required that there should be either
a land tax imposed, or an income tax and property tax,
it might be very fairly put before the House of Com-
mons, they agreeing generally that the exigencies of the
public service did require a tax to a certain
amount, whether they would agree to the one
proposition, or whether they would take the
other. But in this peculiar case what I feel is that
there might be a great majority of the Irish Members
iu favour of Mr. Herbert's proposition, that that
might in fact be the sense of the representatives
for Ireland; but that the other proposition being sup-
ported by the Government, being the Government pro-
position, those who placed their confidence in the Go-
vernment voting for that proposition, there might be a
majority of the House of Commons against that general
sense of the Irish Members. Such being the case, there-
fore, I wish to obtain from you some intimation, not
immediately, but in the course of the next twenty four
hours, as to what would be the course of the Irish Mem-
bers, or the majority of the Irish Members, in respect to
this proposition. I should not, however, act fairly, and
fully explain the intentions of the Government, if I were
not to say, that according to all the informalion which
we have collected, both in the past year and the present
y ear, with respect to an income and property-tax upon
the same classes and to the same amount as in England,
if we were to make that proposition, we should feel it
necessary to accompany it with other propositions with
respect to taxation in Ireland. When I so
speak, I may at once declare that I do not
conceive that there would be an objection in point of
justice to the extension of the assessed taxes to
Ireland, but I do think there would be an insuperable
objection in point of wisdom and expediency. I think
the reasons for which Lord Ripon thought in necessary
to repeal the assessed taxes in Ireland were reasons
which were very powerful at that time, but I think they
are far more powerful at the present time. Therefore
the proposition I should make would not be an extension
to Ireland of the assessed taxes, but we should, if we
proposed to assent to Mr. Herbert's proposition for the
extension of the income and property tax to Ireland, hold
ourselves at liberty to propose an extension to Ireland of
other taxes which are now paid in Great Britain, and
which are not paid in Ireland now, to a certain amount.
The whole amount would not be more than we now ex-
pect to raise by the rate in aid. I have stated gene-
rally the view which the Government take. Ido hope
that by eleven o'clock to-morrow morning I may be
informed of what the course is which at five o'clock
the Irish members would generally take with respect to
Mr. Herbert's motion. I shall now retire from this room,
but it may occur to you that there may be some ques-
tions which you wish to ask me, or some further expla-
nation which you wish to have, and therefore I shall be
in the room next to this, and if you will send Me a mes-
sage that you wish to see me any further, I shall be ready
to attend you.
A* HON. MEMBER—There is an answer at once to be
given to your Lordship.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I think it better that I should
retire.

No final decision was arrived at before the Hon. Mem-
bers quitted Downing-street, but we learn that Sir Lu-
cius O'Brien subsequently waited upon Lord John Rus-
sell on the part of a portion of them, and intimated to
his Lordship that he would call a meeting, in order to
endeavour to ascertain the feelings of the majority, and
to furnish her Majesty's Government with an answer by
one o'clock this day.