The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-02 00:00:00

THE SUN,- LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING-, FEBRUARY 2, 1849:

venient to move the adjournment of the debate on the first
amendment of his Honourable Friend the Member for
Buckinghamshire, because he felt it impossible to pass
by the subject after what had been stated by the,
Noble Lord at the head of the Government,
without first making some further allusions to the subject of
Ireland; and what the Noble Lord had stated this evening
confirmed him in the view he had taken of the matter, and
the necessity which existed for postponing the subject of Ire-
land till a future period.— (Hear.) He should, therefore, for
the present address himself to some of the observations made
by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose. The
Hon. Gentleman asked the agricultural Members what they
proposed for the relief of their particular interest. And well
he might ask that question; for not only was no allusion
made to that interest in the Speech from the Throne, bat
neither the Noble Lord who had moved, nor the Hon.
Gentleman who seconded the motion for the adoption of the
Address, adverted in the remotest way to that important
topic.—(Hear, hear.) He was the more surprised
at the silence of the Honourable Gentleman the
Member for Bury on this subject, for that Hon. Gentle-.
man's constituency was closely connected with an
agricultural county, and the House, therefore, bad
a right to expect from him some explanation.
connected with the welfare of the agricultural interest of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to ask the Honourable
Gentleman whether Suffolk was very far from Cambridge-
shire, and whether he had not heard of certain agri-
cultural meetings which had recently been held
in the latter county. If the Hon. Gentleman had heard of
those meetings perhaps he would be good enough to inform
the House whether some of those who attended those meet-
ings did not state the nature of their difficulties, and pro-
pound and enforce upon the - resident gentry
of the neighbourhood a remedy for those difficulties, which
remedy would probably be very acceptable to the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(Hear.)
If he understood the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume)
aright, his statement last night amounted to this, that
the constituencies of this empire were so well satis-
fied with the working of the new system of free
trade that they would not, under any pretence, ever
return to the old system, which expired last night;
but (proceeded the Honourable Gentleman, who, in the
early part of his speech, was but indifferently heard in the
gallery) if the Honourable Gentlemen would recollect
the intelligence which they had learced yesterday
of the reaction which had taken place in a
neighbouring country—if he would turn to a country not
far separated from us, he would find, though France had
abolished her monarchy and her form of government, a dis-
position had been evinced to ,return to protective duties,
and it was by no means chimerical to indulge
the hope that the time was not far distant when France would
adopt the protective system which England had abolished.
Further, he would ask the Hon. Gentleman if he had not
found in his intercourse with society, not with
" besotted farmers," as agriculturists had been called, a
wish expressed during these few weeks, that there should
be a fair but a low duty upon corn. The Hon. Gentleman
said that the faith in the present system was so strong that
no fear need be entertained by those who advocated
the new system that the old one would be
adopted; but he wished to ask the Hon. Gentleman who
had talked so loud in favour of the new course of policy,
who rejoiced that yesterday the duties upon food were prac-
tically at an end, why those duties were alone made the
object of reform ? Why, he asked, when they heard so much
about the poor man's loaf; did they hear nothing about the
poor man's loaf and the poor man's slice of cheese.— (Hear,
hear.) He put this question to those consistent politicians,
those free-trade economists, and disciples of the new
school, which advocated the abolition of protective duties
and the retrenchment of the national expenses, why, in the
course of last session, when they had commenced their agita-
tion, their voices were not raised in behalf of the poor
man's butter and the poor man's slice of cheese?—
(Hear, hear.) They made no effort to cheapen these
articles, and allowed the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
swell his budget by their aid. Sharp accountants as they
were, how he would ask were they to get the 300,0001. ob-
tained by the sliding duties scale which expired yesterday?
Did they think, though 5-6ths of the duty were paid by the
foreigner, that the people of this country would
be scared by a name, and which never could be
more than a name and a delusion, from going back
to the system which had afforded a fair return for
their produce—by the adoption of a moderate system of
import duties? The free-trader looked not to the interest of
the consumer, but the Protectionists looked to the in-
terest of both producer and consumer. They could
not forget the magnitude of the interests in-
volved, and the claims of their old labouring
poor, and they were desirous of meeting the heavy charges
by framing taxation in accordance with a statesmanlike
system, and not in accordance with an impracticable theory.
They must remember that they had assiduously endea-
voured to establish a system in which all duties on imports
or for excise were to be done away with. It remained yet to
be seen how far those who had been so ready to destroy a
system, would be able to re-establish the means by which
the several departments of the Government were to be sup-
ported.—(Hear, hear.) They must recollect that if they
had in their endeavour to carry out certain theories
developed certain principles, and set themselves against
anything like protection, they might very probably have to
resist the application of these principles against themselves.
The farmers were considering even at the present time what
to them was the advantage of an expensive Government,
and when asked to look into the advantages which they en-
joyed, they merely replied that they had nothing to attend
to but cheapness; and he had to inform the gentlemen
opposite that there was even now a coalition among them,
not weak, nor destitute of those elements of combined opera-
tion the evil effects of which they had so fatally expe-
rienced. He was himself about to attend a great public
meeting in which the consideration of the retention of the
malt tax would be actively taken up, in which those present
would energeticallydiscuss the whole principles of import duties
When asked to look at the importance of our colonial empire,
they replied what was the colonial empire to them, for they
found that the colonies were, in many respects, protected
even against themselves. In making this assertion, they
were, undoubtedly, going upon high ground. They had
themselves set the example of attacking protection, and must
expect that the arguments which they had so fluently used
would be retorted with equal force and good will.
Honourable Gentlemen would recollect that some time ago
a considerable quantity of tabacco was grown in Ireland, and
in some of the districts of England. But this growth had
been stopped, and the home consumer had been sacrificed, in
order to secure what had been deemed au unjust monopoly
for the colonial producer. Was it not natural, then; that
when this sacrifice had been made for the sake of revenue
the home farmer should believe that there was as
little consistency as prudence in their opponents.
So long as we were to keep our invaluable, but at the same
time our expensive form of Government, so long, he con-
tended, must we be able to levy taxes sufficient to meet the
expenses of the Government, and also those of the public
creditor, which he could not do unless Ministers returned
to the system which they professed to denounce.
For them to be scared by the term " protection," or to be in-
vited by the term " free-trade "—to form their financial sys-
tem on such a theory as they had promulgated—was not
compatible with the institutions of this country. With re.
spect to the relief of the poor in Ireland, he had heard with
surprise and very great regret that it was not the intention
of the Government to propound any measure, not even to lay
down the principles of any measure ; but, instead of that,
they proposed to throw the whole thing before a Committee
of Irish Members, which was anything but statesman-like,
manly, or bold, for the Government to do at the commence-
ment of the session. With regard to the Poor-law, whether
the area be larger or smaller, the question was considered to be
one at all events of first-rate importance. He was not going to
discuss that question now. If there was one subject more than
another on which the Government could obtain accurate and
decisive information, it would be the very one subject on which
Ministers now declined to legislate. He maintained the Com-
mission, and the Government through the Commission, was
in full possession of the public opinion, either for or against
the diminution of the area of taxation ; and as far as in-
formation want, at the rising of that Committee, no
more valuable information could be obtained than
that -which was at present before the House.
Any measure which might be proposed ought to be of im-
mediate efficacy to Ireland, or it should not be passed by the
House. It appeared that the Government had made up
their mind to enlarge the area of taxation, but what he
called upon them to do was to state to the House how
far they were prepared to stand by the Irish Poor-law.
Many opinions had been expressed on the subject. A very
influential journal in Ireland protested against the relief of
the able-bodied poor. There was a strong feeling among
the clergy that the system of tithe commutation should be
different to what it was; and, again, there was a large
class who were of opinion that the burden of
taxation should fall entirely upon the landlord.
He, therefore, would ask the Government not to let another
post go out to Ireland before they stated how far they were
able to stand by the principle of the poor-law, what conces-
sions they were prepared to give, and what principles they
were willing to. maintain.—(Hear.) He understood they
could not bring forward any measure because the Government
were not united in opinion upon the Irish poor-law, and
therefore he charged them not to resort to the miserable
excuse that it was impossible to legislate when Irish Mem-
bers could not agree on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The
best way to act for the welfare of Ireland would be for
some member of the Government to come forward in a states-
manlike manner with some definite proposition,_ and wait
the issue whatever it might be.—(Hear, hear.) They could
bring forward coercive and restrictive measures without re-
ferring the matter to any Committee, and why could such a
course not be adopted with regard to the poor-law? The
fact was the Government were not united, and in order
to shift the responsibility from their own shoulders they pro-
pneel the appointment of a Committee.—(Hear, hear)
With regard to the points of the amendment, he had already
trespassed too long upon the time of the House to say much
upon them ; but with regard to the foreign policy of the
country, he must be allowed to express his regret, that
the Speech from the Throne did not contain the custo-
mary paragraph, stating that her Majesty still continued
to receive assurances of friendship from her various foreign
allies.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to Colonial matters,
after the very grave charge which the hon. gentleman
the member for Montrose had made
o be against the noble
belordvery atry
mthueebhesaudprisoefdr th
thatj department, he hgeentslhemoualnd
did not follow up that charge; while if the
Hon. Gentlemen succeeded in turning out the present Secre-
tary he apprehended that the Noble Lord who at present
filled that office would be quite ready to admit that the co-
lonies had grown too extensive to be governed properly by a
nt —(Hear, hear.) He voted for the amend-
ment
single department.—(Hear,
. ' d the Member •
of his Hon. Friend . for Buckinghamshire
lwataison;orthebecause he telt that when other intneoretsttoshlAa'evree
beenmaintained,
omitted
the oldest and largest interest ought
flourish-
ingf r from the
andth espe
oughtec
hie haveti ther
been the sin matter.
for n
congratulation
agriculturat this time,because they could say
ject of condolence ; but a
l interest was suffering, and ought to have been sub-
way of sympathy. That was
mined to say nothing in the
no-
thing congratulatory, her Majesty's Government had deter-
Crown. That was
right to expect from the first Minister of thef
rho
.
treatment which, he thought, the farmers of England had no
not the course which the representatives o
interest could allow to , pass unnoticed, and therefore they
o agricultural
had a right to propose this amendment. The agricultural
interest had a claim to the sympathy of the Legislature, and
those who conceded that claim would vote for the amend-
ment, while those who were indifferent as to whether the
agricultural interest was flourishing or in diffi-
culties would no doubt vote against it. But let
him tell the
farmers would
they found no
nouse and the Government that the
experience the deepest regret when
for their sufferings
dhade re
db eae n f hapalele pr
te
idn
tue
reosnt ~
sympathy prevailed in the House
; but notwithstanding the abuse which
tretyw
still
t abnaddi ntgb e tmh eeye n
sweefr emaking
-
their representatives understand their feelings—they still
had the means of punishing the silence of those who showed
themselves indifferent to their interest.—(Hear hear.)
tjhuestex sat extraordinary
the r
Sir W. SOMMERVILLE said; after ,
statements of the Hon. Gentleman who had
House would perhaps allow him to say a few words upon, the
subject of the Irish Poor law, to which tie Hon. Gentleman
had so often referred. The Hon. Gentleman accused the
Government of tam Bring and trifling with the question,
but Avow G9Ald the Witt Geilthautu bui3titilt 1114 charge,

when it was remembered that the course the Government
pursued on this very question last session met with
almost the entire approval of all the Irish Members.
Government asked them for delay in appointment of a
Committee on the subject until they had received the
report of a Commission as a foundation for their in-
quirie. But the Honourable Gentleman taunted them
with indecision, and denounced them, because they did
not at once enter upon the questionv by enlarging or
reducing the area of taxation ; but let bun remind Hon. Gen-
tlemen that there were other maters connected with the Irish
poor-law of more importance than the ilea of rating. Go-
vernment had determined to keep the 'promise they made
last session that at the commencement of the present session
they would concede the appointment of a Committee on this
subject, and lookins at the immense importance
of the question, he could not see what objection
could be advanced against that course. The Govern-
ment were perfectly ready Co propose any measures
which were likely to be calculated to alleviate the suf-
ferings of the people. With respect to what had been said
concerning the Irish Poor-law Committee he had
to reply, that it was not usually understood that
the Members of the Committees entered upon the task with
a determination to be unanimous? No; they entered upon
the investigation for the purpose of hearing and collecting
the best evidence, upon which they arrived at a re-
sult. He confessed he was surprised to hear the exagger-
ated statements of Mr. Grattan. That Honourable and
Learned Gentleman had said he was :a ruined man.—(Roars
of laughter.)
Mr. GRATTAN (jumping up, and with much dmphasis)—
No, no.—(Laughter.))
Sir J. SOMERVILLE thought he heard the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman say that if he was a younger man he
would go away from Ireland as• staying would lead to his
becoming a ruined man.
Mr. GRATAN—Hear, bear.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE—Now what did the House think
was the rate of taxation in Celbridge, the mine with which
the Hon. Gentleman was connected, the rate was 73/4d. in
the pound —( Roars of laughter.)
Mr. GRATTAN (raising his eyes and hands aloft)—Oh !
oh I—( Laughter. )
Sir W. SOMERVILLE—The expenditure was Md. in the
pound, so that the Celbridge mine had now money in
the bank. The Honourable and Lerrned Gentleman
also said that 400,000 able-bodied men could not obtain em-
ployment, and that they were receiving rations of one
penny a day : now this was an erroneous statement, since
the highest number during the year in the receipt of
relief was 65,000.—(Hear, hear.) He thought he had
a right to complain of these exaggerated statements,
statements which were eminently calculated to give English
gentlemen erroneous information as to the real state of
Ireland. He was bound to state that there were
many parts of Ireland in which the people
were not so poverty-stricken as was represented.
Mr. GRATTAN exp:amed. Thank GoO, he was not an
Irish Secretary.—(Cheers.) The rates in the Cellbridge
Union, which were voluntarily contributed to by many of
the landlords, amounted to Is. 3d. in the pound. They taxed
themselves, and got rid of the Hon. Gentleman the
Government had sent over from Downing-street. Colonel
Conolly, whose death he deplored, Lord Cloncurry, Mr. Kil-
patick, and several others contributed sums of 101., 81., and
61. for this purpose, and one person employed 38 persons upon
a piece of land of 20 acres, which showed what Irishmen could
do when they liked.
Sir JOHN WALSH blamed the Government for not de-
vising, ere the meeting of Parliament, measures to remedy
the defects in the present poor-law. They must bear in
mind that the condition of Ireland if been altogether
changed since last year. Had not this change taken place,
the charge of the Hon. Baronet might be well founded.
On that occasion the Right Honourable Gentleman
the Secretary for the Home Department had stated
that, in his opinion, he and hls friends had only
wished to get rid, by a side wind, of the con-
sideration of the Poor-law altogether, they might retort
the same accusation, for truly they had more reason to en-
tertain a similar apprehension. A Committee, in the hands
of a dexterous politician, was of all things the
most useful and convenient machine in the world,
for postponing the consideration of any question whatever.
Not that that he, and those who acted with him, would oppose
a Committee. On the contrary they would do all in their
power to promote the object of the Ministers, but they could
not help feeling that the Government ought to be in the
present receipt of sufficient information to proceed to a de-
cision without any further delay.— (Hear, Hear )
This was a matter which could not be postponed for a
year for the simple object of getting at a
conclusion which might already be given. There was a
great and growing evil, which ought to be instantly met.
He would now allude to a matter, which during the last
session had excited much attention, and, to which the
Noble Lord at the head of the Governmert had given
at that time what he must say he thought an insufficient but
an evasive reply. He olluded Ito the presence of a British
fleet in the Bay of Naples. The first reason assigned
was that a breach of international law had been
committed by a Neapolitan vessel hoisting the British flag
( LEFT SPEAKING.)

THE LONDON GAZETTE.

(THIS EVENING.)

FOREIGN-OFFICE, FEB. 2, 1849.
The Queen has been pleased to appoint Cleland Cumber.
lege, Esq., to be her Majesty's Consul at Tampico.
WAR-OPFICF, FEC. 2.
sth Dragoon Guards—Lieutenant George Rowan Hamil
ton to be Captain, by purchase, vice Blackburne, who re-
tires, Feb. 2.
Cornet George Duckworth to be Lieutenant, by purchase,
vice Hamilton; William Inglis, Gent., to be Cornet, by pur-
chase, vice Duckworth, Feb. 2.
15th Light Dragoons—Surgeon John Marshall from 84th
Foot, to be Surgeon, vice Monet, deceased, Feb. 2.
Ist Regiment of Foot—Captain William Gabbett Beare,
from halt-pay Unattached, to be Captain, vice Trevor Da-
venport, who exchanges, Feb. 2.
Lieutenant Joseph Doughty Windham to be Captain, by
purchase, vice Beare, who retires, Feb. 2.
Ensign Henry Francis 13ytbesea, to be Lieutenant,
by purchase, vice Windham, Feb. 2.
Theobaald M'Kenna, Gent. to be Ensign, by purchase,
vice Bythesea, Feb. 2.
4th Foot—Jasper dal!, Gent., to be Ensign, by purchase
vice Collins, who retires, Feb. 2.
DECLARATION OF INSOLVENCY.
William Thomas, timber merchant, Prendergast, Haver.
furdw est.

BANKRUPTS.
John George Fuller, wine merchant, St. James's street.
Thomas Rushworth, victualler, Leeds.
Edward Howitt, miller, Lincoln.
Thomas Davidson, carriage builder, Leeds.
Joseph Flemming, printer, Cannon-street, city.
William Anderson, engineer trader, City-road.
Thomas Giimbly, grocer, Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwick
shire.
Henry Whitfield, builder, Stafford.
Henry Philip Gilbert, carpenter, Plymonth.
William Fuller, lamp manufacturer, Charles-street, Hat-
ton-garden.
Thomas Stanley, printer, Dudley, Worcestershire.
Bernard Cayenne, clothier, Wootton Basset.
PRICE OF SUGAR.
The average price of Brown or Muscovado Sugar, computed
from the returns made in the week ending January 30
1849. is 245. 2d. per cwt.

,The " Gazette" was not published till nearly seven o'clock,

COURSE OF EXCHA
Amsterdam 12 2%
Ditto, at sight .... 12 0%
Rotterdam .......... 12 214
Antwerp. • 25 80
ltamburgh —M.D. 13 11%
Altana •• •• ••••
Paris, 3 days'sight 25 40
Ditto, 3 months .... 25 65
tiarseilles 25 65
Bourdeaux . 25 70
Frankfort on Blaine.... 121%
Petersburgh, Si!. Rble.. 36%
Vienna, effec. So • • .... 11 27
Trieste, ditto.... •• 11 30
Madrid • • ••• • • .• .. 48%
Cadiz .. ............ 48%
Bilbao .• • . • • •• • • . • •• •
Barcelona •• ........
• •• •• •• •• •.

.NGE.-(THIS DAY

1G1bra1tar..............

Leghorn ........•• ..•• 32 30
Geaoa•••• •••••••• •••• 26 1.0
3/Lilan •• •• •• •• .• •• ••

Venice • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •

Maples ...... • • ...... 40%
ralernio, 11834
Messina • • • • • • • • • • • . •• 119
Lisbon•• •• •• •••• • • • • 51%
lOporto.• .. • • . • .. • • ....
IRio Janeiro • • ........
Buenos Ayres --
STew York, 21 days'sight

Philadelphia .. :.. .

PRIORS OF BULLION, PEE 02
Foreign Gold in bars.. £3 17 9
Portugal Gold Coin .. 0 0 0
Spanish Doubloons .. 0 0 0
New Dollars ...... 0 4 101,6
Silver in bars ........ 0 4 11N

NAVAL INTELLIGENCE.

Posrsmourff, THURSDAY.—The Centaur steam-frigate,
Captain C. H. M. Buckle, is to proceed hence to Plymouth,
at which place she is to be paid advance, and embark Com-
modore Fanshawe, C.B. She hauled off from the jetty this
afternoon. _ _

The Arrogant, 46, was hauled from alongside the Victo-
rious to the jetty this morning.
The Sprightly steam-vessel, Lieutenant-Commander H.
Barnard, was put out of commission last evening.
The Racer, 16, Lieutenant-Commander Bacon, is hourly
expected here from Plymouth. She is ordered on her arrival
to be prepared for sea immediately.
In the recent trip to Plymouth of the five steamers—
Growler, Driver, Salamander, Rattler, and Jackal, the
latter proved the fastest vessel, which is confirmed by the
statements of various persons who were on board the re-
spective steamers. It is well known to those who were in
the vessels that when the signal was made at daylight on
Sunday for the squadron to proceed without reference to
seniority, the Jackal, although her steam was down at the
time and then being twelve miles off Plymouth, was the
first into Hamoaze ; the Growler followed. The Jackal is
one of the condemned half-dozen iron vessels.
Wind, S.E. by E., light breezes and thick hazy weather,
with drizzling rain.

METROPOLITAN SEWERS COMMISSION.-011Thurs-
day, at noon, the justices connected with the Consolidated
Commission of Sewers, met in their Board room, Greek-
street, Soho, for the dispatch of business. Viscount Ebring-
ton, M.P., presided. A large number of the Commissioners
were present, including Sir Henry de la Beche, Dr. South-
wood Smith, the' Hon. F. Byng, Richard Lambert Jones,
Esq., Edwin Chadwick, Esq., and the Rev. W. Stone. A
considerable amount of financial business was transacted,
which occupied the chief part of the sitting. Subsequently
Mr. Haddon was appointed clerk of the accompts, vice Mr.
Stable, pensioned by ordea of the Commissioners. Sir Peter
Laurie, Bart., was then chosen treasurer to the Commission,
the Act 11 and 12 Victoria, cap. 112, requiring the appoint-
ment of such an officer. Upon the motion of Sir Henry de
la Beche, seconded by Mr. Buller, a committee was appointed,
it being considered desirable that the laws should be amended,
by which the business of the special and general courts is
regulated, and for fixing the days for future meetings, and
shortly afterwards the Commissioners adjourned until Thurs-
day,
Thet mhcclosthminesrte.
ial advices from Bombay continue
favourable as regards imports of British manufactures. Both
in cotton goods and metals it will observed that a general ad-
vance in prices is reported.
4Among the noble refugees driven to this country by
the late events in Vienna, is the accomplished Princess Czatoriska
nes ltad 41,111.