The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-09 00:00:00

1849.

be attained by the adoption of the principle of limited
responsibility instead of unlimited responsibility, and
therefore, as he wished to take issue upon the question
as to which was the most advantageous mode, he should
resist the introduction of the Bill of his Hoe. and
Learned Friend, which was based on the principle of
,limited liability.
Sir W. CLAY supported the motion for the intro-
duction of the Bill. Lord Liverpool, Mr. kluskisson,
and Lord Ashburton were in favour of banks of limited
liability, and it was solely in consequence of the opposi-
tion of the Bank of England in 1846 that the experi-
ment was prevented from being made. He had not a
moment's hesitation in saying that if the present princi-
ple were to be maintained he would much rather go back
to the old system that existed prior to 1826; for it was
impossible to deny that the private hanks of that period
were incalculably better than the joint-stock banks of
the present day.
Mr. CARDWELL considered this to be a very simple
question—it was a question as to the application of the
rules of ordinary common sense to the transactions of a
very familiar business, the business of banking. The
question was, how were they to obtain well-constituted
and well. conducted banks ? Was it by requiring that
every person interested in them should be under the
serious responsibility of being liable to the whole extent
of their fortunes, or would they allow persons to whom
a few thousand pounds was a matter of comparative in •
difference to place that money in an institution where
they expected a high rate of interest, but who might be
careless about its safety, and therefore not vigilant as to
the mode in which that business was carried on? In re-
ference to this question, Mr. S. Gurney having said before
the Committee appointed on the motion of the Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir W. Clay), " I think we should retain all the
evils of both systems and none of the advantages of
either," the lion. Baronet asked this question, " Have
the gooducss to state what are the evils we should
retain of the system of private banking ?" He an-
swered, " We should have a security interior to that
which most private banking establishments give, and,
generally speaking, a less safe system of manage-
ment." That was the language of Mr. Gurney in 1836,
and it was the language of experience and common sense
in 1849. It was proposed that no additional bank should
be established without the sanction of the Board of Trade.
Considering the effect of such a provision on the com-
mercial interests of the country, he thought it needed
very little observation to see its utter impracticability.
Then it was proposed that a portion of the funds of the
bank should be invested in public securities. The effect
of this would be to enormously increase the price of the
funds in good times, and proportionately depress the
price in a period of pressure. As to the publication of
accounts, he had received a letter from a gi ntletnan who
was himself a conductor of a joint-stock bank in which
he said that--" I do not believe that any mode of
stating the accounts could be devised that could
enable the public to judge of the state or unworthiness
of any particular bank, or that any auditorship would
be a satisfactory pledge for its real position." The
writer went on to say—" I have a very strong opinion
that if you limit the responsibility of shareholders in
joint-stock banks you will take away from the public
the only really valuable security that they possess; and
that any law establishing joint stock banks with limited
liability would be most objectionable as regards the
safety of the community at large. Without the power
and ability to scrutinize every bill and account of a
bank the publication of its assets. &c., would only be
like to deceive. By carrying forward as good securities
that cannot be realised, bills overdue and unpaid. and
debts owing by parties who have not met them with re-
gularity, it is obvious that accounts may be made to as-
sume any aspect that may best suit the views of those
who have the management of a bank or any other large
concern." Was that not consonant with every clay's
experience? He had had a document sent to him which
was not altogether dull or unassuming; he had received
it from a gentleman of the highest respectability. It
purported to be the prospectus of a joint-stock bank, but
he did not guarantee its accuracy, therefore he would
not mention names, but give it as an imaginary case.
Suppose the bonds of a certain township near Liverpool,
amounting to 70,0001., on which no interest was paid: "The
revenue of the township barely meets its current ex-
penses; there are bonds amounting to about a quarter
of a million which have a prior claim both for princilp
and interest before anything can be paid towards this
debt either in interest or principal. The value of these
bonds, amounting to 70,000.0001., is nil. Collieries and
mines, 40,0001.; value 9,0001.; bank-house, 21,3751.;
value, 10,000/.; loss on bills and accoun s, 30,0001;
value nil; loss on bills and current accounts at branches,
52,5001.; value nil. Total, 213,8751., from which deduct
19,0001. as estimated value of property, leaving 194,875/.
The capital as per last report is 149,473/.; the esti-
mated loss beyond capital is 45,4011." Nuw, just ima-
gine a bank in that condition.—(Hear, hear.) The
Honourable Baronet (Sir W. Clay) would no doubt
argue that with a bank of limited liability such losses
would never have occurred; but ho asked the Hon.
Baronet to give proof of that, and not be content
with assuming, that becatue there had been failures
with banks of unlimited liability, there would be no
failures if the liabilities were limited. He (Mr. Card-
well) would venture to express his belief; that if
there was any business more than another in which
they should abstain from limited responsibility, and in
which they should render gambling impossible, it was
that of banking. Banks were the great reservoirs to
which the streams of commerce flowed, and from which;
in times of pressure, came the supplies which commerce
required.—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances
the calamity in a district on the failure of a bank was in-
deed fearful. He would repeat the early part of the
speech of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Headlarn), sentence for
sentence, and word for word, in which he had pressed
upon the House the sufferings and calamities which had
occurred, and he would say that if, notwithstanding all
the vigilance of private banks, and all the wide resources
of joint-stock banks, those sufferings and misfortunes
had occurred, they should be careful not to aggravate
those calamities by establishing that kind of bank
which, in the expressive language of Mr. Gurney,
" will unite all the evils which both possess, with none
of die aae-entages of either."—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. BRU iv N saw, that the reference isailch had
been made to the American banks was most unfortunate,
considering that in 1837 nearly 700 banks of limited
liability had tailed in that country.—(Hear, hear.) In
consequence of having resided nine or ten years in
America, it was within his own knowledge that many of
these banks were complete jobs from the commencement
to the end, and had led to great abuses in the banking
system of America. With this experience, he did not
feel disposed to allow the establishment of banks of
limited liability in this country. He opposed the mea-
sure of his Hon. Friend, therefore, because he considered
it would be injurious to the general interest of England,
both at home and abroad.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. MACGREGOR also opposed the measure, on the
ground that the establishment of joint-stock banks with
limits d responsibility R ould be a great misfortune to the
country. With reference to the question of security, he
begged to remark that the people of England did not
consider that the three chartered banks there gave any
greaser security to the shareholders than the other banks
which existed. He was glad that the Bill of 1844 pro-
vided that in future no joint- snick bank should be estab-
lished in this country except upon the principle of
extended security to the public.
Mr. HEADLAM having intimated that he would not
trouble the House by dividing,
The motion was, by leave, withdrawn.
REMUNERATIVE EMPLOYMENT IN IRE-
LAND.
Major BLACKALL then rose to move the following
resolution :—" That the peculiar circumstances of Ireland,
consequent upon four successiveyears of distress, require
the immediate adoption of such measures as may assist and
encourage the individual exertion of the owners and
occupiers of Irish property, and promote indnstry by giv-
ing remunerative employment; and that all grants or
loans of money to particular districts should be applied,
as far as possible, to such purposes as may conduce to the
eventual improvement of those districts, and enable them
to support themselves from their ordinary resources."
He begged to say that since this resolution had first ap-
peared on the books of the House several measures had
been brought forward by the Government relative to Ire-
land, of which he did not underrate the importance. He
was also anxious to take this opportunity of saying, that
so far as he was personally concerned, he had always
found on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
every wish to forward those reasonable and rational
applications for loans and grants which had been made
by Irish Members, and that he had been guided in his
refusal more by the tone and temper of the House than
by any wishes of his own.—([fear, hear.) The Hon.
and Gallant Member was proceeding to notice the va-
rious measures which had been adopted for the pur-
pose of meeting the recent famine in Ireland, and to
point out the errors which had been committed, when
An Hon. MEmnER moved that the House be counted;
and, forty Members not having been found to be present
the House adjourned at Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 8.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five O'clock.
EXCHEQUER-BILLS BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Petitions against the repeal of the navigation•laws
were presented by the Duke of Northumberland the
Earl of Harrowby, and Earl Talbot. ,
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
At the request of Earl GREY,
The Duke or RICHMOND postponed his motion on
the subject of agricultural distress from Friday to Mon-
day next, as the second reading of the Rate in Aid Bill
was fixed for Friday. •
NAVIGATION LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Earl of CARLISLE then ruse to resume the ad-
journed debate on the Bill for the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws. He felt that he was labouring under great
disadvantage in having to follow the eloquent speech of
the Noble and Learned Lord last evening, which was
so calculated to excite those prejudices by which
their Lordships were supposed to be actuated. He could
not suppose that their Lordships were actuated by per-
sonal motiver, and ha granted to his opponents that
which he claimed for his friends and himself; viz., the
being actuated solely by what they considered would be
for the benefit of the country. It he believed the mea-
sure would be prejudicial to the maritime or naval in-
terests of the country, he should say that he
ought to encounter, not only defeat, but ignominy
for supporting it. He believed such an idea to be utterly
groundless. He supported it btcause he believed it
would promote the progress of the commerce of the
country. That commerce was the principal support of the
mercantile marine, and that marine was the main support
of the naval supremacy of the country. He agreed with
the Noble Earl in denouncing those who would sacrifice
everything for wealth, but the wealth which they sought
to promote was only the proper reward of honest in-
dustry, and would tend to promote the peaceful inter-
course of nations.—(Hear, hear.) He would not go into
the history of the navigation-laws, nor into that which

was more properly the affair of his Noble Friend the
'et re try for the Colonies—the Lean eg of the"
lee s !Ton the colonial interests of i'he country
He could not look upon a navigation code w ith the reve-
rential awe which had been professed by rainy. At first
it had been fruitful only in disasters. Its enactment had
been dictated by jealousy of the Dutch, andiele,
first fruits were two sanguinary wars with Jan'
land. What had been its effect ? Restriction
had necessitated restriction, until those restrictions
had been extended to Ireland and the colonies, and had
goaded Ireland into discontent, and America into a re'
volt and war, which ended in our being forced toacknowledge her independence. This code bill
thus founded our great rival, and these
ought to be set down as off-sets when
any panygeric was made upon our navigation CO e•
He was, however, inclined to let bygones be bygones'
and to consider whether, in the circumstances of tb!,
present times, in our present maturity of wealth and
power, it was worthy of this country to maintain Oct!,
restrictions which in former times she bad thought
necessary. If the navigation code was the wisest
that the wit of man could have devised s",
the time of the enactment, they should consider
whether it was profitable now to maintain atilt
The battle of Trafalgar effectually cleared the ocean got
our ships more than any maritime code could have done.
It was long after the peace before continental nations
could create a marine, but there was a growing spirit
of resistance to monopoly of trade on th 3 part of Oil
Power. That resistance had been met by the reciPr?;
city treaties. That spirit was now reviving. It shone'
be remembered that Russia and several other nations
could, by giving twelve months' notice, put an ens f
to those treaties. The Noble Earl had said that,
the affairs of this country were properly administered'
there would be no fear of such improper threats. Would
the Noble Earl consider that we should be justified
treating such a motion as an improper threat ?
was said last night that Russia had no mercantile trade'
He had, however, a statement of the tonnage of vessel;
belonging to Russia, Belgium, France, Spain, and PT
tugal, which during the last three years had entered the
ports of the United Kingdom from 1846 to 1848, excliri
sive of vessels in ballast ; and in those three years, of
all the countries he had enumerated, with the exception
of France (and that only exceeding in one year), the
largest number of tons was to be set down to Russia. 11:
1848, the tonnage of foreign vessels entering British
ports was, Swedes, 51.000 tons ; Dutch, 76,000 ; 139'‘
gians, 38,000 tons; Spanish, 14,000 tons; Portuguese;
7,000 tons ; Russian, 76,180 tons. The Noble Ear'
said these matters could be arranged by preliminary
treaties ; but he was calling the attention of their Lord;
ships to the state of the country if foreign Powers refused
to renew their treaties on the same favourable tersest
and we lost our present direct trade with them'
The Noble Marquis the President of the Council stated that if foreign Powers forbade us to engage in their
direct and carrying trade they could throw more
than 200,000 tons of British shipping out of employ'
went. He found that during the last year there entered
foreign ports 233,000 tons of British shipping, and
cleared out 230,000 tons. That was the trade carried on
by 13ritish abipping from one foreign port to another.
(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Lord had made
a very strong attack on the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne)
fur saying that the whole of this trade was liable to b;
cut off; ho bad stated that it was a gross calumny, and
attempted to account for the number of tons of British
shipping engaged in foreign trade by saying that sou)°,
of the vessels made thirty-two voyages in the course 0'
the year. He had, however, made a mistake in his Cll'
culations, and mixed up the trade of steam-vessels
tween Belgium, Holland, and France. Of the 200,07,
tons of shipping to which the Noble Marquis alluded "°
being employed in foreign trade, 12,000 tons belonged
_At°
Hamburgh, and he had a return by which it appeared
that instead of these 12,e00 including steamers, they W
longed to 62 ships, every name of which he had set dovah
and he could tell the Noble and Learned Lord that
steamers which passed directly to and fro between 01
foreign ports were scarcely ever employed in their di'
rect trade.—(Hear, hear.) If by a continuance of re-
strictive policy we were to forfeit our present indirect
trade, he telt persuaded that the importunities and cone
plaints of our traders and merchants, our forgers.of
and our smelters of copper, would be pitched to a hat
worse note of distress than they were now from the
supposition that they should be prejudicially affected by
the present proposal. He had called the attention of their
Lordships to the risk we should run by continuing .the
present state of things. The evils and inconveniences
had been abundantly illustrated in the most conclusive
and powerful manner by the daily recurring experience
of those who were most concerned in those matters
He had gleaned a few matters of fact as they were con'
sternly taking place under the operation of the present
navigation-laws, and he thought they would be found
.t.t°
be of a most conclusive character. He would begin with
the article of cotton:—
" That cotton which was brought to Havre on English,'
account in a foreign ship, which could not be dispose
of in France at any price, and which could have been
sold at Liverpool to advantage, might not be conveyed
from Havre to Liverpool in a British ship, but might 71
reconveyed to the United States in in a foreign ship, 001'
thence brought to Liverpool in an American ship, thus
depriving the British ship of employment, and depriving
the English market of cotton
.when there was a distress'
ing deficiency in the supply.
" That sugar could only be sent from Guiana and
other colonies to England at a freight of 31. 10s. or 4L
ton, while slave-grown sugar (which we are accused
.of
unduly encouraging) could be sent from St. Croix 1°
Danish ships at 2/. 103. a ton, thus discouraging al°
supply of colonial and free-labour sugar; that no British
ships could be procured to export free-labour
Batavia.
A °vowing
hat copper is now produced in great and ap-- - abundance in Australia and cannot find a sufficient num-
ber of British chips to convey it to this country, and the
high freights, which are the necessary consequence,
diminish the profits of what is sent, which has led to the
project of establishing smelting works in Australia
instead of employing, first, the shipping, and, nest,
the manufactures of England for that purpose: tbsti
sugar from
ag"i", ac German ships which now carry out
emigrants to Australia may not carry back copper ore,
or meat, or any or 'lie to,,ouee austrana, as return
cargoes to this country, or to their own country, with *
view to exportation to this country; if the market $6
home should not be remunerative, therefore, at Ham"
burgh they have also established smelting works in theft
own defence, again creating a gratuitous competition
with the manufacturers of this country.
" That wrought hides may be imported into this
country in any quantity from France or other countries,
but it there was any superfluity of raw hides they might
not, under the navigation-laws, be brought to ibis
country for the artific?rs of this country to manufacturer
unless they were sent all the way back to America.
" That cochineal, another article of most rapid 10'
crease from the Canaries, has its chief depot at Cadiz'
whence it is taken in French ships to Marseilles, but it
cannot be taken, under the navigation laws, even i!,l
English ships to England, because the Canaries are sal"
fared to be geographically in Africa, and therefore the
produce must be imported in English ships from the
Canaries themselves, where there is no.; independent
inducement for English ships to go, while at Cadiz
there is always a multitude of British ships for the
purpose of bringing wine, but which are not suffered
to bring this valuable and much-wanted dye.
" That Madeira wines may not be brought from Lis'
bon even in English ships, where they would always b°
in great abundance. Nor the gums of Senegal froth
their chief depot at Marseilles. Nor the dye weeds or
West Africa, from a large depot of them at Marseilles.
There may be a surplus supply of all these articles is
these ports; there may be a deficient supply at home; the
ships loading with sherry and claret may be full of cone
veident chasms absolutely yawning for these light
assortments, but the prohibition is complete and lir
exorable.

" That nitrate of soda, more highly thought of as
manure, has sold fur from 21. 6s. 6d. less at Hamburgh
than here, but fur the same sum could not be brought
even here.
" That a parcel of Alpaca thread was actually the
subject of this venerable transaction. It arrived in
Haalburgh (a great depot fur merchandise: from South
America), trom Peru, was purchased, sent to Hull, re-
fused admittance, shipped thence to New York, re-
exported
to Liverpool, and sent into the manufacturing
district-, where it arrived too late for the demands of the
market.

" That Java indigo, which was much wanted for some
of the more delicate manufactures of this country, was
purchased in Holland, but in order to secure its entry
into this country, it was shipped in a Dutch vessel to
the United States, and thence exported to this country.
" That palm oil, Manilla hemp, logwood, have all bees
waiting for shipment in the United States, and because
no British vessels were to be had they all failed of being
sent.

" That it is stated by a Ilamburgh resident that the
operation of the navigation-laws with respect to the
supply of Peruvian wools to this country, such as are
. brought to the continent of Europe first, is unquestion-
ably unfavourable to British manufacturers, because the
German manufacturer is purchasing that article now at
a less price than the manufacturers can purchase it in
Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the consequence must be
; that the German manufacturer can afford to sell his cloth
at a less price than the English.
" That at Bombay and Calcutta though there is con,
stant uncertainty whether there will be ships to carry
produce to England, and the freight has been as high se
eight guineas a ton, and though the same ports are filled
with ships not only seaworthy, but efficiently cow'
mended, and which would bring home that produce if
they were suffered to do so, yet because of that prepos-
terous disability which attaches to ships manned by
Lascar sailors, they are not suffered to du so.
" That with respect to the noblest because the most
useful article cf interchange, I mean the bread we live
upon, it is stated by the Board of Trade at Toronto.
September, 1846, that large quantities of produce were
forwarded to Montreal from the interior, where it he"
been produced during the preceding winter, at price`
severely enhanced by the exa:.;gerated reports which
reached Canada of the scarcity of bread-stuffs throughout
Europe. On arrival it was found impossible to obtain
shipment for it at less than 6s. a barrel, and the holders
were threatened with insolvency alike from its shipment
or retention, and perceiving most distinctly that the
chief cause of their difficolties was to be found in the.
present navigation-laws of your Majesty's kiagdorn, ti
feeling of deep dissatisfaction therewith has arisen in the,
minds of your Majesty's Canadian subjects."
What did these numerous cases which were daily arisinit
prove but that in countless ways—and we could 1101'
track them through all their ramifications—our wigs"
tiou-laws did impede, obstruct, or, if he might use the
more homely epithet, bother all the operations of 1311:
trade in every part of the globe?—(Cheers.)
seemed to be an ingenious attempt to make every
efl%
scription of goods pay double freight, and to eng
tier ill feeling and animosity between nations.—(le....,
hear.) In our anxiety to secure the long voyage "

often deprived ourselves of a mettle,: of ehort voyeges.
In our anxiety to gresp everytheg for ote-seiv:s
t very one else, includeee our teen COluntes, so le:-
comfortable an to drive them to the neees•ity of adoptine
measures of counteraction and resistance against us, if
we did not pave the way to more overt acts of hostility;
and instead of appropriating to ourselves the resources
of all other countries, we created a host oF artificial cliffi •
culties, and succeeded in rendering the eeealt inure hos-
tile even then the ancient poets had described it
(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the navigation-laws
succeeded in making the mercantile marine a nursery
for the royal navy, and that the modern system of steam
navigation required a larger number of hands to be
trained. But he thought it would be found that the
navy did not draw so large a proportion of the hands it
employed from the mercantile marine. however,
they were to rely en deriving considerable assistance
from the mercantile navy, be thought there was little
fear of the result when he found the increase of British
seamen from 1823 to 1847 had been from 165,000 to
252,000—(Hear, hear)—and when he found that, in
British ships, the tonnage had increased 10 per cent.
With these facts before him, he could not but entertain
a very confident hope that we might still rely upon ob-
taining an adequate number of ineu from our mercantile
marine towards the manning of our national navy. It
had been said that there was a disposition in the mer-
cantile marine not to take an adequate number of ap-
prentices; but so far from that being the case, there were
10,000 more apprentices in the mercantile navy than
were required by the Provisions of the navigation-laws.
--(Hear, hear.) Then it was contended that it was im-
possible for British shipowners to compete with foreign
shipowners; but upon many grounds he must dispute
that proposition. If they considered the strength and
durability of British ships as compared either with the
well-constructed ships of the United States, or the more
cheap, but less enduring ships of liussia and the power,
of northern Europe, he thought, whichever side of the
comparison they took, they would find that the British
shipowner did not suffer any material disadvantage, not-
withstanding the greater expense of construction.
Several gentlemen who had been examined before the
Committee had proved this fact.
" Mr. Winter; of America, was asked, In what re-
spect should you consider that a ship can be built
cheaper in America than in England; where would be
the saving?—The only item in shipbuileing which, to
my knowledge, is cheaper in America than in England,
is wood, and this, for ships built in New York, has to
bear heavy transportation, much of the timber being
brought by sea from Virginia and Florida, and the plank
from Lake Erie, a distance of 500 miles. The iron is
imported from England, and pays a duty of 30e, beside:,
the expense of importation. Copper is also much higher
than in England, and wages are nearly double.'
" Mr. Graham, the secretary of Lloyd's, says—' The
first-class British ships are the best ships in the world,
and are superior to American ships.'
" Captain Briggs states that such ships as he has
Spoken of, costine 20/. per ton, Would not stand A 1
for twelve years. The Americans have no ships that
would stand A 1 for twelve years in this country.'
' A ship could be built in England quite as cheaply
as in America, and an English ship always stands longer
than an American ship.'
" You can build a twelve years' ship in England, and
fit her entirely for sea, as cheaply as yuu can build an
American ship of ten years.' "
As to the North, it was said—

very opposite of all these predietiors weld r suit
tr in the measure beicre the lieu e, h shituiti
be the last man amongst their Lordships to
propose or support it. lie trusted that he Teed
placed a just estimate on the !level power of Great
Britain, as well as on her mercantile merino, and that
he was as alive as any of their Lordships to the vast
impor • of maintaining in full vigour the netienal
importance
fleets, which at the moment whey " Rate Britannia" bad
been sung in the streets of Paris were net likely to be
abandoned to decay. But he did not anticipate any in •
jury to the efficiency of the Briti-li navy from the pre-
sent measure. Neither did he apprehend any danger to
the national defences from its becoming law. On the
contrary, it was that, in his opinion, the effect of the
measure would give increased employment to seamen,
and intuse invigoration into the trade, reat,u'actures, and
commerce of Great Britain, that he supported it; and it
was by instituting tow rewards for this industry of the
community, and by developing the resources of employ-
ment for shipping, that the best guarantees would be
found for the permanence of the national defences—
detences which had hitherto been sufficient to render
England the mistress of the seas, end by the blessing of
God would long continue to maintain her in that poti-
tion.—(Cheers.)
Earl NELSON could not help expressing his surprise
that the Noble Marquis who brought the Bill forward
should have looked with disdain on the expression of the
public opinion and at the petitions which had been pre-
sented against the Bill. For his own part he believed
that the opposition shown to the Bill out of doors had
been elicited by a very g, neral apprehension as to its
effects upon the naval power of Great Britain. As to
the retaliatory clauses which the Bill contained, they
could never be enforced, and the first step after it be-
came law, would be to repeal those causes. He would
now advert to the opinions held by a person whose me-
mory had been brought to their Lordship's recollection
by the Noble Earl opposite, who had connected the
battle of Trafalgar with the cause of the success which
had subsequently to that victory attended the British
mercantile marine. He must assert that the distiu-
guished man whose name he had the honour to bear,
and whose memory deserved to be revered in that place
(Eh ar)—entertained opinions on the subject of the
navigation-laws which well merited their Lordships' at-
tention. Although Lord Nelson had been dead many
years his memory was not forgotten, and although the
navigation laws had since he lived undergone great
changes, still the principle remained the same as iu his
eay. He could not forget that Lord Nelson disobeyed
orders and subjected himself to trial by court-martial'
in his determination to tuaintain the spirit of the naviga-
tion-laws iu the West Indies. He pursued the same line
of policy at Copenhagen, and he had manifested the
deepest anxiety to spare the bloodshed which had oc-
curred at that city, in which he might have succeeded,
could he have got his fleet away in time from Yarmouth
Roads. Lord Nelson would never have been able to
make good the national defences of England in the year
1801 lied not the navigation-laws existed; for where
could he have found sailors, or whence would England
have procured her commercial navy, but by means of
these lawn? It was all very well to talk of peaceful ar-
bitrations; but, even supposing all the nations of Europe
',greed to resort to that mode of settling disputes, what
security was there that some master spirit should not
rise up and force on a war, and how could the British
nation be safe if she had not a naval force? Before he
sat down he would call upon the Right Rev. Bench
to resist the present Bill, because he saw in it the
sure sources of an increase in the slave-trade. He called
upon such of their Lordships as were free traders, to re•
silt it, because it was an imperfect measure, and must
soon be amended. He called upon all who had the in-
terest of their country at heart to oppose the measure,
and to trust to the experh nee of the past, rather than
to the vague promises which were founded on imprac-
ticable arid unsound theeries.
Earl BRUCE said that there never had been a mea-
sure which he had a more perfect conviction was a
right one than the present. If he thought the Bill
would impair the naval efficiency of the United Kingdom,
he would be the last man to support it. It had been ar-
gued by the opponents of the present measure that it
was better to leave things Ste they were. But he.hegged
to say, things could not be left as they were. The
colonies had lust the protection which they formerly.
enjoyed, and it was natural for them to seek to indem-
nity themselves by extending their commerce and ship-
ping, and by obtaining fresh outlets fur their produc-
tions and industry.
Earl TALBOT said, that in the first place there was
not the slightest necessity for this measure; and, in the
second place, even were it desirable in any point of view,
its effect upon what should be our most cherished inte-
rest would be so deeply injurious that it ought never to
have been entertain( d by the Legislature. The fact was,
that this measure was nothing more nor less than another
attack upon our best institutions, by that free trade party
who, having got rid of the corn-laws, had determined
" to have go" at the navigation-laws, which in the first
instance they had pronounced against. He was quite
favourable to reciprocity where reciprocity could be
tairly effected, but he must protest against giving every-
thing and getting nothing in return.
The Earl of WALDEGRAVE next addressed the
House, but in so low a tone of voice that none of his ob-
servations reached the gallery.
The Earl of HARROWBY said that, before he ad-
dressed their Lordships on the subject before the House,
he wished to say a few words in reference to the obser-
vations of his Noble and Learned Friend respecting an
Hon. Friend of his, a Member of the other blouse cf
Parliament, whose character had been alluded to last
night by his Noble and Learned Friend. The charge
brought against the Hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr.
Cardwell) by his Noble Friend was, that he had acted
inconsistently with the pledges he made to the electors
of Liverpool in voting for the repeal of the navigation
laws. His Noble and Learned Friend was mistaken iu
,upposing that any such pledge was made. The Noble
Lord here referred to the circumstances attending the
late election for Liverpool, and quoted some documents
from which it appeared that Mr. C1e,r,1.--21-*.o-4 he
measure winch he thought would
injuriously affect the maritime and naval supremacy of
this country, that he would wait for the result of the
Committee which was sitting on the subject of the na-
vigation-laws, and that he should consider himself per-
feetly free and unfettered as to the course be should
pursue in reference to their repeal. Upon this state of
facts he was sure their Lordships would acquit the
Honourable Gentleman of the charge which his Noble
Ind Learned Friend brought against him.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to the question before the House, he felt all
the difficulty of engaging their Lordships' attention upon
a subject which had been already so much discussed.
Ile did not consider the principle of free trade and the
principle of protection as two absolute principles of right
and wrong—that they were the principles of good and
evil, and were to be applied absolutely without any
regard to other circumstances. He considered that the
principle of protection might be required in some cir-
cumstances for a great interest, and in other circum-

" A Hamburgh vessel, from 200 to 500 tons, iron-
fastened and coppered, costs, ready for sea, about i l /. a
.t,9,n. She stands seven years Al, and no more. The
znglish ship costs 201. a ton, stands twelve years A 1,
and four years more, making sixteen years. The Ham-
burgh ship, therefore, stands nine years less on the first
letter than the English ship. We deduct, as before, 11.
a ton for each year, and we find the English and the
Hamburgh ship are tke same cost. We have yet to con-
sider the expense of navigation.
" It is, therefore, fair to assume that the English ves-
sel, as far as regards its durability, is worth, as com-
pared with the colonial vessel, in the proportion of 22
to 7."

If any other proof be wanted that foreigners have
no advantage over England in the build and navigation
of ships, we have it in the fact that when the shipping
trade is depressed, and freights non-remunerative, the
British shipowner is not the first' to let his ship lie
rotting in harbour, and the sailors till the workhouse.
The contrary is notoriously the tact. In those years
of depressioa the foreigner is the first to lay up his
vessel."
"The Parliamentary returns prove, beyond all manner
of doubt, that on every recurrence of distress in,shipping
there is a great comparative decrease of foreign and a
corresponding increase of British vessels employed in the
foreign trade."
Did not this stand to reason, in addition to the assertions
of competent well-informed men, when they considered
the resources from which shipbuilding was supplied ?
We furnished the iron, we manufactured their chains,
we furnished their sheet copper, their sails and cordage,
upon all of which articles they had pay duty, while
we only had to pay duty on our timber; and it was stated
by competent witnesses that the British shipbuilder had
only to pay duty at the rate of 3s. 6d. per ton, having
too at our command the best timber in the world. The
attention of their Lordships had been called to the in-
crease of steam navigation, and ho would ask what
nation could fit out steam-vessels as we could ? It
might be confidently asserted that in nu clue of
shipping, and least of all in steam and iron built
vessels, could this country be said to stand on a dis-
advantage with any other country in the world.—(Hear,
hear.) And when we had swept away the last imp:elect
remains of protection which we still reteinel under the
navigation-laws, we should be in a still prouder posi-
tion. And he could not but think that his Noble Friend
the President of the Council had met with unjust
censure, when he was reproached fur having sp,ken
131 the existing navigation 'laws as shreds and patches.
Why, what were the terms in which the former advo-
cates of monopoly—the most obstinate adherents to the
navigation-laws—spoke of those laws since the passing
of the reciprocity treaties? 14r. Yu nit said
wes inauequate wnere tnese treaties of re-
ciprocity existed that it could scarcely be called protec-
tion st all.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not without hope
that the final and complete removal of monopoly in these
matters would have the effect which almost invariably
attended similar branches of industry and emplcy went
—that it would stimulate exertion and lead the way to
improved methods and more economical modes et
manegement. He disclaimed the invidious task of exa-
mining the short-comings and defects of our mercantile
marine; but it would he unwise to pride ourselves too
much on its efficiency and perfection, because he feared
there was mu h connected with the seamen, the sani-
tary state of the ships, and the qualification of masters,
that loudly called fur amendment. The Noble and
Learned Lord had alluded to a work entitled " Two
Years before the Mast," and he had heard opinions
expressed on this subject by the author of that
work. He had not long made his acquaintance with-
out knowing that any opinion which he received from
him, if liable to mistake, would have been sincere and
straightforward. Mr. Dana had had long experience iu
observing vessels in the Bay of St. Francisco, and hr
said he thought the British sailor was a more thorough
sea creature than their own American seamen—that in
fact he was the best seaman in the world; but with re.
spect to the masters of merchant vessels, he thought the
American captains were better educated, more generally
accomplished, and better instructed in those specific
branches of acquirement most necessary fur them.—
(Rear, hear.) The American ships compete with the
cheapest built ships in the world; we could, with regard
(0 strength and durability, build ships as cheap, and beat
the American ships in the ports of the United States.
That country, which could always present the largest
Lumber of ships, and offer the lowest rate of freight,
Must in the end st cure the great proportion of the carry-
ing trade of the world.—(Hear, hear.) This was what
gave their envied ascendancy to the Dutch. Low rates
of freight would do for the traffic of the ships of the
sea what low rates of travelling did on shore, they would
create traffic where none appeared to have been wanting
before they would suggest wants which had no
been felt before; and not content with suggesting, they
would satisfy them.—(Hear, hear.) So that, consider-
ing that the repeal of the navigation laws would confer
advantages on the foreigners, it they liked—assuming
that in some particular paints we should be
placed on
terms of disadvantage with reference to them
sharp competition would ensue, yet, believinginetubdetihma-t
im-
pulse always given to trade who n restraint was lessened,
and believing in the rebounding elasticity of British trade
to' meet all rivalry, he could t doubt thaet we should
e
secure by far the largest proportion of th
traffic of the world.—(Cheers.) He could believe' mercantile
traffic
system of exclusion and monopoly such as our natviagtaa
don code might have appeared plausible when our power
was confined within narrower limits—but now, when
there was no section or region of the world in which we
had not visited the shores and occupied the seas from
the Cape to Oregon, from Newfoundland to New
Zealand, every obstacle, every impediment, was multi.
plied ten-fold with regard to our own shipping, that of
our colonies, and all the countries with which we had any
communication.—(gear, hear.) By our own prowess,
and enterprise and activity, we had so dotted the glebe,
that to interrupt our traffic between our colonies and the
rest of the world would be to make our legislation
t 3 an extent which it bad never been before, a universal
nuisance.—(Hear, hear.) lie had endeavoured to lay
the chief stress on the advantages which a ri laxation of
the
navigation-laws would confer on our commerce; but
he
was not blind to the colonial part of the question, us
that
which most immediately pressed on the attention of
the Legislature. The way in which he regarded and
explained the indisposition of the mercantile body to any
Bach changesobse as the present was, that he had generally
rued
suits had when men of particular occupations and pur-
been long addicted to them, and had acquired
are intimate
by whi knowledge of the intricacies and difficulties
averse
to measures
these pursuits were surrounded, they were
Pursuit, tmeasures which tended to throw open their
to.retain all the the world, and became strongly disposed
to. He the difficulties which they were accustomed
geometry must say that he believed if a royal road to
would be could be discovered, that discovery
luctance to °Pposed by geometricians from a re-
to all the see their favourite pursuit thrown open
patient
attention
world. Thanking their Lordships for the
with wleich they had listened to him,
Ile would
the only
further remark that whilst he antici-
patedaeigstio greatest benefits from the abolition of the
nations of the
by facilitating the intercourse of the
the world, and by the enrichment of this
ceN°aatrY with harmless wealth ; wealth which the Noble
wart opposite had last evening denounced, hut e hich
as Unobjectionable when acquired by peaceful modes,
"ill he •
diet, n could not listen quietly to-that Noble Earl's pro-
of ,ta si that the acquirement of wealth by the abolition
he'_avnavigation-laws would be attended with injury to
co,2* al pewer of England, with a deterioration of her
ter'', etcial marine, and with danger to her national in-
'BtS
.0. f
ophi. I e ing hi to in
ns ,• ifh he didcould notbr on themself contraryenterta thiek that the

tries on ths Gthor side of the Channel, namely, of the
repeated voyages of steam vessels between this country
an'd :1 merit), and also the stem •boat, communication
bstween the United States and Canada through the lakes.
Ho did not wean to impute to Mr. Porter any other
design in making these representations than that which
led an individual, who was an enthusiast in any cause,
to hazard extraordinary assertions in support of it.—
(Ilear, he'tr) Mach bad been said with regard to the
indirect trade. That trade consisted only of fragments
of voysges. For example, a vessel which was on its
way to Odessa would stop at Turkey and then proceed
on its course. Such voyages e ere not entire trans-
actions—they were only incidental to the greater
ones. It was said that by opening this trade they
would obtain a share in a future trad. In point of fact
they were promised a share of that of which they had
now the entirety.—(Hear.) If the Bill were passed, the
vessels of this country would, by the Ist of January
next, he brought into immediate competition with those
of every other country in the world, and he did not know
how is was possible by that period to obtain equivalent
advantages. lie fully admitted the difficultie s which
surrounded the case as regarded the colonies, and that
was the only question which had caused him the least
hesitation on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) It was, how-
ever, admitted by his Noble Friend opposite that the
grievance of Canada might be redressed by other means
than the repeal of the navigation-laws.—(Hear.) Look-
ing at the question as one which involved tree trade, the
defences of the country, and therefore its very existence,
he could not be a party to tho repeal of the navigation-
laws; and he must, the ref ore, support the amendment of
his Noble Friend.
Lord BROUGHAM, in explanation, said he wished
it to be understood that in what he had stated respecting
Mr. Cardwell he bad not the slightest wish to assail that
respectable gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble and
Learned Lord was proceeding to give a detail of circum-
stances explanatory of what he had referred to, when
Earl GREY reminded the Noble and Learned Lord
that he had risen simply in explanation.
Lord BROUGHAM said that was true; but when a
gentleman was blamed for misrepresenting another he
was allowed a large latitude in explanation. The Noble
and Learned Lord then gave a detail of the circum-
stances attending the election of Mr. Cardwell for Liver-
pool, as justifying him in the extent he had gone in the
observations he had made respecting that gentleman.
lie had thought it right, he added, to say so much in
explanation of the matter, on the ground that as it was
' right " to let well alone," it was sometimes right to leave
ill alone, fur tear it should be made worse.—(Laughter.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE and several Peers rose at the
same time, but being loudly called for the latter gave
way, and his Lordship proceeded. They were not to
look on the question as one standing by itself, but rather
as one connected with the defences of the country, and
they should not give it their support unless they could
satisfy themselves that the repeal of the navigation-
laws would not endanger the naval supremacy of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord here referred
to a statement which he said had been made, that five
per cent. of the whole number of men in the royal navy
were taken from the merchant service; but he found that
assertion had been completely refuted, and that there
was nut less than one-half supplied from the mercantile
marine to the royal navy; and he would here observe
that there was no possibility of denying the argument
that the supremacy of the naval power was mixed up
with the upholding of the mercantile navy.
—(Hear, hear.) The real and essential question
which they had to deal with was, whether in repeal-
big these laws they were withdrawing that support
from those who upheld the naval system of the country,
to which they were entitled, and which it was necessary
they should have. There was some difficulty in dealing
with the question. If they referred to the evidence on
the subject, they found it was full of the most conflicting
statements.—(Hear, hear.) It was of importance to see
the light in which the question was viewed by foreign
countries. It appeared that the Noble Lard the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Palmerston) had
directed the Ministers of this country to make inquiries
of foreign powers, so as to ascertain the feeling that ex-
isted on the subject. First, as regarded Belgium, they
found it was admitted by that country that no Belgian
vessel could compete with British. With regard to
America, there was no reasonable doubt of our ships
being able to compete with those of that country. It
was unquestionable that on almost every item, except
that of timber, the American shipbuilder had to pay
dearer than the English shipbuilder; and even
the timber itself was only obtainable:. cheaper in
some of the American ports. Another important fact
with regard to the northern countries of Europe was
this, that though they had the power of building vessels
much cheaper than us, the greater part of those built
in Sweden and Norway were built expressly for the
timber trade, and were unfit for anything else. On
other questions precisely the same assurances of the
impossibility of our competing with foreign nations had
been made; and they had uniformly received a complete
falsification. At one time the linen trade of Ireland
was protected and encouraged by bounties ; when these
bounties were removed nothing less than ruin to the
gtrade
nwg asa Ran tliicaiepaa-t
me d a
a;
abfauct t
as irni
liege that
ritai
tms e
ofthe
efllaanxd-
had been among theostramidetihsttehpearxotsrppaoderretouowsfo.
uwihdAagtbaeiwnte,hrwreohwecnnaltlehde
bountylong
wools,was
t takenw as
en-
tirely into the hands of foreigners ; but notwithstand-
ing the alteration our own trade had gone on Increasing.
In 1824 the same predictions were made in refer-
ence to the silk manufacturer ; it was said that by ad-
mitting French silks we should completely destroy our
own trade, and that it was impossible for our manufac-
turers to compete successfully with those of France.
What had been the result? In 1823, the year before
the change, the raw silk imported into this country for
consumption was only about 2,400,0001b5., while in 1847
it was 411- millions. The value of the silk manufactures
actually exported from this country was, in 1832,
529,0001. declared value; while in 1847, notwithstanding
a great decrease in the vale. .e thn
948,0001 had been the result of all
gloomy predictions, their Lordships would be
justified in disregarding them, if not in treating them as
absolutelyfalse.—(Bear, hear.) When they heard
strong opinions expressed by the witnesses before the
Committees, they were justified in looking at the cha-
racter and occupation of those witnesses, and in some cases
it would appear their evidence was not quite so conclu-
sive as might be supposed. A Mr. Coker, a merchant
of Liverpool, had been examined before their Lordships'
Committee with respect to competition between this
country and America; and he said, "I consider that the
Americans, taking them as a people, are far superior to
Englishmen."—(Hear, hear.) Not content with this, he
added that emigrants from this country, transferred to
the American soil, improved in bodily condition.—
(Laughter.) He (Lord Wharncliffe) absolutely rejected
this assertion; be believed no such thing. If there was
one feature in the question more important than an-
other, it was the effect of the reciprocity treaties.
The Noble Lord having read a statement of the amount

-, a -
stances he thought that the principle of free trade ought of British tonnage in the ten years previous to the
to be applied. And if there was any one subject in reciprocity treaties, and ten years subsequently, said
eference to which this distinction should be observed it it was quite clear that whatever effect the navigation-
was that of the navigation-laws. They never had in laws might have had before those treaties were con-
tact rested long on one point with regard to them. They eluded, the same causes would have produced the
had altered them from time to time; but in all these same effect after they were concluded. There had
changes they had stedfastly kept in view the prin- been a constant and gradual increase in the navigation
ciplo of reserving to themselves the large basis of a of this country; and the fair presumption was, that
commercial marine, on which to rest the superstruc- if they relaxed the system still further, they would reap
lure of the naval power of this country.—(Hear, hear.) still further advantages from it. They were not only
l'he maintenance of their maritime and naval supre justified, but called upon, by every feeling of justice and
macy was something distinct from and superior to mere policy, to remove unnecessary restrictions, and upon that
commercial interests, and when they had to decide be- ground he supported this Bill. The point in it on which
tween the two it was necessary that the letter should he felt the greatest difficulty was the 10th clause, em-
give way.—(Bear.) His Noble Friends opposite allowed powering her Majesty to restrict the privilege of foreign
that this was a just view. The question, therefore, was, ships in certain cases. He saw an objection to that
whether this was a measure dangerous to their naval course, and thought that an easier one might be adopted;
supremacy, and whether, without the aid of these laws, but he did not on that account consider himself justified
they could maintain that supremacy. A great quantity in opposing the Bill. Looking to the dispatch of Lord
of statistics had been brought forward to show that the Palmerston of December 22, in the papers laid before
repeal of the navigation-laws would not affect their them, he took it for granted that her Majesty's Govern-
supremacy at sea, but the way in which these sta- ment would see that in relaxing the navigation-laws for
attics had been prepared tended rather to obscure the benefit of foreign shipping the same advantages
than to throw light on the question at issue. would be secured to this country. Although not satis-
The statistics to which he referred had been got up by tied with the prospective alteration in the 10th clause,
a gentleman connected with the Board of Trade, with yet, with the confidence he felt in the intention with
whom he was on terms of private intercourse, but of which it had been inserted, he should, at this stage, give
whose returns on this subject a sense of public duty his support to the Bill. He again entreated their Lords
compelled him to say what he thought.—(Hear, hear.) In ships to watch narrowly all the bearings of the proposis
the first place, any person who read these papers must Lion which by this stage of the Bill they were now called
see that they were produced for the purpose of operating on to affirm; and whilst they regarded it as a great ex-
on the public mind in regard to this question. These perimental measure, the necessity for which he was not
returns had reference to the results of the free trade prepared to say could be altogether disproved, to re-
measures of the last few years, with regard to that member that it was one in the peculiar operation of
part of their trade which was now practically unpro- which the welfare and stability of British interests of the
tected. But they were produced not on a question of most extensive and important character were deeply in-
trade, but on a question e f navigation. Now, it they volved. For the reason, however, he bad assigned, he
were not valuable as a guide upon a question of naviga- felt himself bound to vote for the secondreading —(Cries
tion they should not have been produced at all.—(Hear.) of " Question.")
A large mass of figures had been produced under the The Marquis of LONDONDERRY regarding this Bill
head of unprotected trade to show that they could, as as one of the most dangerous experiments ever intros
appeared from the experience of the last few years, en- duced into the House, he had risen to give it his streau-
gage without danger in competition with all the nations ous opposition.
of the world; but on looking closely into the subject it Earl GREY said, that in rising to enforce upon the
was found that of this nominally unprotected trade the House, to the best of his ability, the importance of the
larger portion was practically protected, and that there measure which was now before it, he would
endeavour,
was not that free and open intercourse which alone was as briefly as he could, to set before their Lordships the
the question at issue.—(Hear.) They were told that grounds un which this measure was founded.—(Hear.)
they could compete without protection with foreign lie must acknowledge that his own confidence in the
countries—that they could compete with the mercantile soundness of these principles, and in the merits of the
marine of China, of Sumatra and Java, the Mexican Bdl now submitted to the judgment of their Lordships,
States, and South America. They were told, they could had
.been greatly increased by the whole text of this
compete with Russia, which had but small navigating evening's debate. Fur, notwithstanding the great array
power and little taste for maritime pursuits that theyg of talent which had been marshalled against this mea-
could compete with Turkey—with Austria, which had but sure by
itsopponents, and the ability displayed in
a limited sea frontage. T
ne result to which these papers resisting the motion, no one who had carefully
wouldlead their Lordships,in consequenceoftheclassifica. listened to the speeches which had been delivered by
don adopted and the headings given, was that they Noble Lords in opposition to the Bill could have failed
could compete with all these countries, one by one. to perceive how large a proportion of the matter they
This was one part of these documents. The other part comprised had been utterly irrelevant to the main guess
of this unprotected trade, the resulte of which would go don that had been submitted for their Lordship'semconhsaid-
to satisfy them that they noultdionomrepeerter,eduntoproFtected, dherantisioituig,otti.ainadrihyoywagumeu,cahadofwathhetinregminainpdreereiosfhatuh
with foreign nations,
. ind iNiaveitigl,talian,
s, r
d and the Unitednilce rectnessee and
oaf 2.rehigand
affairs,
attuddistetuaisimtiaohnageenmtehnet
di-
Germany, the Unitestatement.—(Cheers.) Their Lordships from
seNntoabslepectp
Slates. The tonnage of England was stated atnt 6,00u0t
present
whilsta from a Noble and
tons, whilst that of France was only 262,000 to B
there was no note appended—nothing whatever to indi- ut our foreign relations
cite to them that this supermritlytoefomEngland was owing Learned Lord they had heartdhat nmueslotreaevinent shuteiadteedmlte.hilet
comprehended the vast tit the most secret counsels
toward
Goardvse tint
Italy,—(A
)e• n.. 1 o( fA
.Fl raatingc'
h, and cries of
to steam-bow navigation—that
variety of steam-vessels which made consHtaenatr,athidearre.)-
itrehseandt Ipiherpsuubeldic
pealed passages across they Channel.—(
Now, this could not be called an increase iu the tonnage " Hear.") The Noble and Learned Lord had talked as
h that was the impression if the real designs of the Republic and its President in
ew,fhistiai-gtehiensge vessels,paprs
saltw g
o'uulud create in their Lordship's dispatching an( army thither had been distinctly stated
minds.—(fleas, hear.)
Theytrade
ad were
.r
e also told there was a to him. lie Earl Grey) was bound to suppose that
great increase in the open
with the United States; this must have been the case from the unhesitating man-
but they were never told that if they examined the sub
. ner in which the Noble and Learned Lord had endea-
juct, the Decrease of the vessels of the
the fears that some parties might enter-
G.;
still greatcr.—(Cheets.) They were t o
talahleryeal object of that army's destination, and
dn,ted that
tSh, v
tonnage engagLct in the open unprotected trade ette3t
withsri t vithesa Ils
tau re.
the probable results of its being so dispatched. But if
iuh asd
to to
be- Loid, he (Earl Grey) must be allowed to say that it
United States amount, d, in 1846, to 811,000 tons. this honour had been done
,to the Noble and Learned
Those who w( re acquainted with the intercourse
any confidence that had been so
t wee n the two coutarte, must have been startled at such was but a sorry return to make for it to promulgate
—(Laughter and cheers.) Their
1 a ttt",m( nt- Here, sgain, it was found on inquiry, that
much it, the same en trusted to him.
I this amount ot tonna.re was made up publicly in that Howe
I way us the tonnage between this country and the coup- Lordships have heard, on both sides, a great deal about

the extreme importance of maintaining oar commercial
marine, and ti.e danger of any measure calculated to
weaken or diminish an arm so essential to _ she 'welfare
and power of this nation.—(llear, hear.)
point lie, for cue, could only say teat he was not
Orr this last
aware what was the ground ou which any apprehen-
sion was based of any such danger to that commercial
marine.—(Hear, hear.) He sincerely believed, that in the
event of this Bill passing, our commercial marine, of all
the other national interests of the country, would be
that whose stability it would mcst contribute to.—(Hear.)
But the whole question before the House really was,
whether the measure now before their Lordships was
calculated to produce those effects which her Majesty's
Ministers, in bringing it forward proposed to realise
from it, or those which its adversaries supposed would
had heard from Noble Lords on so great a variety (?f
certainly flow from it. All the declamation the House.
other topics—(much as it was calculated to grant), their
Lordships by the opportunity it afforded to Noble
speakers to display their great oratorical talent)—was
beside the real question. As to all other grounds on
which the matter now under discussion bad been opposed
—they were but so much matter out of place—so much
breath thrown away—so much gunpowder
where there was no enemy to direct it against—so muec
in 'act of the time of that House (as far.as any practical i
object or business was concerned) wasted.—( Hear, hear.)
He must repeat, then—for it was of great ira-
portance to bear in mind the simple point raised by the.
motion for the second reading—that the only question
their Lordships were called to pronounce upon was,
whether or nut the measure proposed was calculated to
benefit and advance the great in terests cf this commer-
cial country. He was prepared to prove that it wouldgive strength and stability to that mercantile marine
by the passing of the measure before the House. But
when it was contended that such a measure would put in
jeopardy its future prosperity, and that of the other
greatinterests inseparably connected with it, he begged
Noble Lords to recollect that the system of laws which
it went to repeal was, in fact, but a fragmentary one,
for a large portion of those navigation laws was repealed
by Mr. Huskisson in 1821 and 1827. He could not
just
as that our countrymen would prove themselves
as well able to cope with foreign competition at sea—
which heretofore had been proverbially considered the
home of Englishmen as on land; and in all that
regarded a mercantile marine, they would establish the
same superiority Over all rivalry, as their industry and
enterprise had long since established with regard to ma-
nufactures.
it The Noble Earl then proceeded to re-
mark that had been his fortune ever since he first
occupied a position in the House of Commons—now,
unhappily for him, very many years ago, as far back as
1821—to hear arguments against measures like the pre-
sent so exactly similar to those vdhich had been brought
forward that night, that they might very well have
passed, notwithstanding the difference of dates, for
those which the present motion had elicited.—(Hear,
hear.) For example, in 1826-27, precisely the same
arguments were raised in the speeches then uttered in
opposition to Mr. Huskisson's measures. And it was
really marvellous, after the crushing refutation they bad
at that time received in the answers given to them
by that great
man, that they should now be resnci-
tated, when it might have been reasonably ima-
gined that they had been all of them laid for ever at rest.
The difficulty which he felt in arguing this question was
to meet antagonists who were inconsistent and indis-
tinct. If they told him in what respect the navigation
laws advantaged British shipowners, he should know
how to meet them; but, in the absence of that, he could
only refer to the provisions of the law, and ask which of
them it was that was so desirable. Did the British ship-
owner gain much from that provision which prohibited
the importation of the produce of Asia, Africa, or
America, from any port in Europe? It was to him
utterly incomprehensible in what way a law could bene•
fit the shipowners of this country, which said that an
American ship might bring the produce of New Orleans
to England; but that an English ship should not bring
it from Havre. What did the shipowner gain by a law
which said he should not, in a British ship, bring Bra-
zilian rosewood , from ,Hamburgh,. but, when it was
made into furniture,, tie Dutch ship might bring it?
'That was not protection to the British shipowner,
but to the German furniture-maker. It was a restric-
tion bearing equally upon our own shipping and the
shipping of foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) Another
provision was very much of the same character, which
prohibited the importation of certain enumerated arti-
cles being the produce of Europe, except in our own
ships, or in the ships of the country of which those
articles were the produce. Now, upon what principle
was the enumeration settled ? It appeared to him to be
very much like chance. Why one article was to be
prohibited and another not, be could not see. They pro-
hibited masts, tar, oils, corn or grain, and a variety of
other articles; but while they prohibited corn or grain,
they admitted flour. In the same way the whole range
of foreign manufactures was not touched, for mi
ght
import mght
import
from France or Hamburgh, in the ships of any
nation, any manufactured goods. But if the principle
were good, why not extend it ? And again, he asked,
on what grounds was the enumeration made ?—(Hear,
hear.) Then, again, the rule was established that
we were to import the majority of goods either
in British ships or in ships of the country of which they
were the produce. On what principle was that prohi-
bition made? Did that secure the British shipowner
from competition? Not at all. In importing corn from
Dantzic we were left in full competition with the Prus-
sian shipowner. So, in importing from America, we
were left to compete with American ships. In fact, in
every case, we were left to compete with that rival whom
we had the most reason to fear. The perversity of such
a law he could not understand. It left the shipowner
exposed to full competition with America between New
York and England, but saved him from competition with
the America between Dantzic and England.—(Hear.)
These were the main provisions of the navigation-laws.
There was very little else in them; and those were what
he now called on their Lorst.etp. Thos.
,z,gnz ot, right. or they might be wrong:
but, at all events, he totally denied that they afforded
the slightest protection to the British shipowner. And,
more than that, the shipowners had said so themselves,
because, when it was a question of reciprocity, they
always said " if you allow that, we shall be exposed to
complete competition;
we shall be utterly ruined, and
there will be an end to British shipping." That was what
was said 20 and 25 years ago. Fortunately, however,
the riffairs of this country were directed by men who
knew the interests of the shipowners much better than
they knew their own; for if they had had their
own way they would have impeded and restricted
commerce, and by compelling
each country to send
out in ballast to its neighbour, in order to bring
back the produce in her own ships,' they would have been
making two ships do the work of
one. Would that, he
asked, have been a benefit to the shipowner ?
These capricious restrictions upon our own shipping,
as well as on the shipping of foreigners,
were what
really constituted the navigation-laws. To say that we
should lose nothing by repealing those laws—to say
that there was no possible danger in removing these re- ,
strictions—was, as it appeared to him, greatly under-
stating the fact. What he said was, that the British
shipowner was deeply interested in getting rid of these
laws with the least possible delay.—(Hear, hear.) Let
him remind them that the Noble Earl the Vice-Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade told them on the previous
night that the great part of the wealth of this country
arose from our warehousing system. But were they
ignorant that if they retained these laws upon
the statute-book, the warehousing system must be
destroyed ?—(Hear, hear.) If foreign nations ap-
plied to us the principles of monopoly involved in
that barbarous and disgraceful statute—for so he must
term it—the warehousing system was at an end. We
refused to take from Hamburgh, or from Rotterdam, or
any great continental port, the produce of Asia, Africa,
or America. If the same principle were applied to us,
our warehousing system would be ruined. In the same
way we refused to allow foreign shipping to be engaged
in the indirect trade of this county—we would not allow
a Russian ship to bring American goods to this country;
but if the same rule were applied to us,
de-
structive of that indirect trade which was of such import-
ance to us. We would no longer be able to carry sugarf
from Rio to St. Petersburgh. The Noble Earl (Earl o
corn from
"frag-
ments of voyages." But our ships would. not be able
Harrowby) spoke in a contemptuous tonieCawboouultd..be
toodecsosma!
How did
wetieth:
we do it, however ? We took out a cargo, perhaps of
outhoßo
sues Russian shipseots inof
voyages. How
coals, or of some other not very profitable cargo, to Con.
stantinople, or Malta, or somewhere in the Mediterra-
nean, where again we got some small freight, at a low
charge, to Odessa, and thus assisted we were able to
bring corn from Odessa; but, under other circumstances,
if we bad to go out direct to Odessa in ballast, it would
be impossible for us to bring anything from that port, in
competition with Russian ships.—(llear.) Russia had
already passed a law by which the ships of foreign na-
tions coming to her ports were to be exposed to the same
restrictions to which her ships were subjected by the
law of thosenations. For the present, the treaty which we
had with Russia relieved us from the operation of the
Russian law. That treaty would expire in 1853; and
a hen it expired, we knew that Russia would apply to
us the same rule we applied to her: we should lose this
indirect trade, which was of so much value; we should
cut up the warehousing system, which was one of the
main props and supports of our trade. It was the same
with Germany, Austria, the United States, and various
other countries, What we gave to them we should have
in return. It might surprise some of their Lordships
that it was this statute which was the main difficulty in
competing with the American shipowner. By the law
of the United States, the ships of all foreign countries
which subjected them to certain restrictions were not
allowed to carry to the ports of the United States
any produce but their own. This law being in force,
we came within the nations to which this prohibi-
tion of the United States applied ; we could carry
nothing to the United States but our own produce; we
could not make up an assorted cargo. The United States
were crippled in their power of assorting cargoes. A
ship coming from America had comparatively little in-
terest in assorting her cargo. In nine cases out of ten
the cargo of a ship from America to this country was
made up of bulky goods, cotton and flour, the produce
of the United States herself. In the trade the other way
the question was entirely altered. The trade to America
consisted principally of manufactured articles of various
kinds, and every gentleman who had considered the
commercial question was well aware that in sending
out manufactured goods, the whole profit depended on
the power of assorting a cargo. At this moment,
in a very important branch of the trade between
America
and this country, an immense advantage
was conferred on America. Their Lordships were
aware that America had lately established steam-
packets between New York and this country. He
was informed, and he believed the information to be
perfectly correct, that one great advantage which the
American steam-boat had over the British, was that the
articles that paid best in the steam navigation to Ame-
rica were articles of taste and millinery. They went
almost entirely by steam, and he was told that, in the