The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

tary career. given a vfue upon the sui-j,ct of the Irish
Church. He (Mr. asbor,,e) believed the 11,:n=mratite
Gentlem,.n had been very rnech pressed to vote en

the appropriation clause, brit ho wets tuu much td. n
tifieri with some high &pito/ties of the Church
to commit wh,t, would ha've bcFn a kuividal t*et ‘4.1

his parr, Ile (Mr Osborn-) might answer shut 11 n
(1,144 wii's obj•etion that this was 'el the priper time
ior such ts di-cos-ion by the ohs- rva.titttis mad- by th..
ister of the Miht, then Mr Sheil—(Lant.th et)—gin
1833. in reply to a similar objection. 'chat Ilight lion.
"f11+.132,01, att. r ohs, vthg that it bad be. n argued that
that, .as not the proper lime for appropti,
ation of th,. Chitret, temporali•tea went on to say:—
" -Not the titre, Whtn is it to arm, ? 13.eme the
Itef Tmed Pattaieent it was not he time mud the lie-
httlined hero is the liefoitned ,men',
and the time hts nut yet c- me. When .01 it? NV,,rn
the Whitts art* in opposition? What: I we are to *talc
until their otticialcotiv reehee wit, the right, of
Ireland, we shatl have to wait long indced."—(Ln.isghter.)
lie (Mr. Osborn, ) hopeii the 1.4..vel nWela 11111nttt, Intel.(l
to move " Eh.- pr: vt..us gaps last" a, nit .:n
nis mttein. lie thihigh, thr heat tI tihithm thut coo d
be given of the present session was, that it had been a

..-s-ion of pr.vtous qq..,tiont,; for out .eaiening the de
bntes he I.tuni that in no !ot mer sessi..it tied the pry
woos que,tion" been No tregnetitly m,ved pe.,.1,b- 0,,
of doors were somewhat puzzled to imagine what the

or. vious question meant. it was nothing wore th ,11
ParhameHtary sl. ight of hand, used to cut the ae•
quaintatx •of an old triend who had been uselulinop
position, hut Who might he inc,;nve3si-nt to a party in
power. He (sir. Osborn•) did not regard this as a were
question of money, but he would have the financial re
turmers of England look about them, and rememt.er
when the tax collector came to the doors that A great

ti“al v‘as levted to maintain an army (It occupation for

the supp la of the Irish t hurch. He regirdeil this as
an impartial question, as well as an Irish question; be
cause, whatever measures they alight pass, so lung a,
they lett the Church of Ireland in its present state would
Ireland be not only the diffieulty of a Minister, but the
embarrassment of an empire.—so long would the Noble
Lard be justified in coming down to the House and say-
ing, as be did in 1844, that Ireland was occupied and
not governed; and so long would Ireland remain in the
state so graphically described by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire, of social decomposition.—
(Hear, hear.) Referring to the pasta history or Ire-
land, the Elem. Gentleman observed that the Reforma•
tion in Ireland was carrie d out on the great Whig prin-
ciple of a pixopriation, the original reformer s caring little
about Irish souls, but a great deal about Irish properly.
—(Laughter.) Cromer, the Archbishop of Armagh,
denounced the reformers as the SocialiAs of that day,
who under the plea of ren,rm were plundering and
spoliating the country; and Leland, a Protestant writer,
records in his history, that the gross lives of the re-
formers constituted a great drat% back to the Reforma-
tion. The history of tka Irish Church, in the time ot
Elizabeth, was written in characters of blood, for that
monarch, though a good Puseyite in this country, was a
bitter Presbyterian in Ireland; and when Lord Strafford
was expostulated with Peer his cruelties in Ireland, he
gave as his excuse that his object was to increase the
revenue; so that the Roman Cathol:ca were rot bed for
the advaic.nricut of Protestantism.—(llear,andlaughter.)
The policy of Cromwell was explained by one word—
extsrmination• andit was in his time that the Irish
Roman Catholics were eff• red the agreeable alternative
ot tied or Connaught.—(Year, hear.) In 1688 Ireland
gained nothiag by the English importation of a lluteh
:don itch but persecuti;in ; and William 111., in his last
speech to Parniamesit, s aid he hoped that all distinctions
in his kingdom would cease except those between
Papists and Protestants. Passing over the various
penal enactments ad tpted, he mentiotted as a re mat twine
tact that Bishop Mant excased them not only es being
for the security of the Prue-stasis, but ale() for the
net,efit of the Caehalics. When he refl teted on such ate
excuse he couiti not h- 1p exclaiming—
" 0! luau reins nitaium, sus at bona tiorint."
—(Laugater.) La 1723 a Bill was passed—and he
wiaild chal eiwe the productian treat the at nala eel any
other country of such an Algerine Act—by a c rause in
welch it was attempted to degrade the Raman Cat hot cs
to a level with the slavish guaraistis of a Nlahotnetsie
harem. They all knew how tha union was affeCtfrld ; they
knew th et union votes were barter d for Irish bishap-
ries, arid now, after a pert tel of 300 years, this Protes-
tant Church in Irelatio, notwittistarming its receipt of
great revenue alai possession eit poloical supremacy,
stood very eeuch in the game po Won as at fir.t, though
he granted that the okra) had improved. They taiga'
revile the Homan Catholies as beggars, but they could
not taunt them as apostates. for their creed they had te•
tamed through famine, pistil nee, arid persecution; and
Ireland lay L zarus at the gel e, whilst the Li stab
&weal Church, like 1..) v-s was clu.hedf is purple, and fine
linen, the highest ...tiers to the institution leasling
sumptuoasly every d ,y.—(Elear, hear.) He meant no
rail:tenon on the clergy of the lower classes, but he itn-
puaned the system under which they were ministers.
But it might be said that there was no pers-cution in
the present day, and why then make any altera-
tion when the 1I email Catholics were loyal and con-
tented? Was this so uniformly the case ? Why, he
tound the Protestant Bishop of Watert,rd stating, in
another place, on the sth ot May. 1849, that in the last
year. out of a population of 80,000 Homan Catholics in
a district, only eighteen persons became ape cial con-
stables; while out of a population of 5 000 Protestants
280 persons became special constables. lie (,tr.
Osborne) therefore came to the conclusion that there
must be something which prevented the Roman Catholic
population from being attached to the present system.
The lion. Member here referred to a letter written by
Lord Clarendon and read in the House of Commons last
year, relative to the indisposition of the population iii
certain districts to support the authorities in their at-
tempt to suppress rebellion, and observed that if he
were to ask those Hon. Members particularly connected
with Ireland why this was the case, he was sure their
answer would be, that it arose from the circumstance of
full justice never having been done to that o. unary; and
from England persisting at all haz girds in maintaining
this deformity of the Protestant Church.—(Hear, hear.)
He knew that there was a large and respectable party
in Ireland who meant by "justice to Ireland"
identity of institutions in respect to nosh countries. He
totally dissented from that doctrine, which he regarded
as a fallacy. The misfortune was ihat they had endea
voured to suit the English law and English notions—
the result of long prosperity and of the habits of the
English people as a commercial nation—to Ireland. In
so acting, the Government took for example the first
political economist of antiquity, Procrustes, and had en
deavoured at one time, by pi nal laws, to stretch the Ca.
tholtc conscience, raid at another to cut short the means
of the people by regulations applied without re•
terence to their f elings ant eusionss.—(Hear.) It wae
most extraordinary that this prsctice was applied to Ire
land alone. Scotland rettaitied all her native ins' iwtioriz.,
civil ~nd criminal. England tried to saddle her sib
bench cf Eitshops aid an English Church, but &salami
refused to nave them ; and he- observed that 1.2301. a
sear was vi to the Scotch Episc pagan clergy, whiw•
e
money no Seoichinan refus,cl to receive, n.-cau e, as la
supp sett, it was sp tit in the cou,.try.—(L aughter
l'tte c ense Tierieft of governing Scotland through the
sentimeals of na iunal ty alit affection was trott taceettano
was quite an inexpe-nsive neightieur, and requir.d eb
pr Iwo only of two thousand soldie- rs at the
existing time —(Rear, hear.) But, on Irel .net An-
glican laws wi re imposed ; Ire-nand had not true
naive isstituttan, except the canstatadiry,
hi the High, Hon. Gentletnau opposite; it bad a rice.
prore, sot Church; and while the Presbytetiatis receive-0
the Regium tonum, the It email Catholics were n,gl• e,. d.
The cutissqu rice way, that in I &sail an army was re•
qaired or 50,000 the u. iieclu lie,g pensioners and police
Would it not, 'hen. be m ire w;se to rule
Scotland was ruled, through th.- of nationalii)
and atfecti-en? Was this system of Protestant .eaten
dency worth the money paid -or f ? —(Hear. hear.) Lord
Lan•downe once asked whether Irelanit was inteadeit tee
the benefit ot the Church. or the Church tor the hen. fa
he (Mr. Osborne) should be obliged if tn.
flume Secretary would answer that question.—(Hear.
hear, and a laugh.) Whet were the use and object of a
church establishmen• ? The Prime Minister had ex•
pressed an opinion that a church establishment was tie‘i
to maintain the offspring of the clergy in wealth, bus
chit it was intended for the spititual instruction of the
people ; and the Under Secretary for the flume De.
partment, in a most able work on the influence.
of authority in matters of opinion, expressed the
sentiment that a Gov..rtiment in deciding the ques-
tion of endowment must look to the numbers ot
the persons constituting the religie us denutairiatiiina,
The Bishop of London likewise said that the ques
don, whether a church establishment was to be main-
tained, was to be only answered by another, nana, ly,
whether it impeded or promoted the spiritual improve-
ment of the people? The Hon. alember here said that
he was willing to place the question on that ground, and
observed that it was curious to see, when the expansive
nature of Protest‘intism was talked about, how the Ho-
man Catholics had progressed and how the Protestants
had diminished in Ireland, under the influence of the
Established Church. He here referred to different ac-
counts of the proportionate amount ot the Ruman Ca
tholic and Protestant populations in Ireland at variosis
periods since 1672 to 1841; ebservit g that during that
space of time the Roman Catholics had increased as 7 to
1. He proceeded to say that it also appeared from the
report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction in
1,18r307, testthaanttstheinre
tw,aerrhe; 99 benefices with less than 20
and 50 Protestants in
one single Protestant. —(lieesta hear.)
12u4acte;neafincdes41hbaevuireitigebeestwweiethno2uut
A most fallacious
way of viewing this question of the amount of Pro-
testants in Ireland was to refer to the report of the
amount of church sittings in that country; for in the
church which he attended the number of sittings was put
down at. 200, though only 25 persons attended.—(Hear.)
In the diocese of Lismere there were several parishes ill
which there were no Protestants, and in one plash the
rectorial tithes were paid to a very fine girl.—(Laughs
ter.) In another place (Churchtown, we understood the
Hon. Member to say) the rector went to church to preach
tine day, and he fourid a goose hatching eggs in the pul
pit.—(Renewed laughter.) In the diocese of Ossory it
might be expected that more Protestants wou'd be found
the-re, as, with the este) ption of two large estates, the
property there was held xclusively by Protestants; but
Mr. Sergeant Shee, in his patuphle t "On Vie Chu, ch of
It abe in Leland in I elatien to the State," related that in
the incumbency of enlists, yieldine, 2.1971. a year, he
abserved that- the- chapel of the R- v. Mr. Mu-pegs and
the. chapel of the Augustin Friar. were tully attended,
but that the cattgrega)toti in the parish church consisted
of 87 persons only, ina.y of them children, and 10 601-
dicrs quartered in the sown, and who could not be token
as forming part of the regular corgregation.—(l-1, ar,
hoar.) The lion. Gentleman said, tnat for the spiritual
care of the 853,000 Pratestauta in Irelaad, there W re
estaalistied !sa) eaicills Aye._ Bissttas, Z7O
i;;;)::I:.1of Inc Arci.oLtaipiie of 11111, ek`la
was more than 12,0004 and of the other Archbishopric
above 7,41004 a year. The Dishop of Clogher bid