The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

THE SUN,

he believed thet since the Reform Awn the Protestant
service had never been celebrated in soy one ot the eight
Parislses he had alluded to.—(11. ar.) The It ish Church;
notwithstanding all the support it, lista recd ived. hid
completely felled in carrying out th-• obj etc intended by
it• It never would carry out that object, tied he did
not therefore see the propriety of k +ping it up.
Reforms had been atter-opted in that. Church, in order to
failed in doing so. These re,torm a had b •en pr ,pos• d
and eirried nut by the Right II •te 13 sr >n et the Meade r
for Tamworth and ode rs; but thy hed all totally
,ailed, That Church eats, teerecore. c •nceired to be a
burden on the people of Irel.old. and while that idea 11f
prevailed prevailed among the peeple, there was no hen- of its
eyer being rendered usitul to teat country. He held
Ithat the relit of the majority oi the people ought to
se the religion of the State, and as such supperted by the
t!ue; and in support, o' that doctrine he quoted the
opiniou of Dss. Bailie, Warburten, an,l Arnold. It sees,
however, said Oast as the Act of Eldon had made Ireland
at? integral portion of this empire, that it was the reli-
!", of the majority of the three
,•ree
e end, and Ireleud—thet ought to deterentue what
*l3 to be Isteacteat,—Scotland,
!ver, was the established religion. That, how-
not a proper ground to procee,i upon,
for if they admitted the princip'e of giving• the sup-
the
of the
State to the religi-in of the majority
J-16 People of England an 1 Scotland, why could
they refuse to extend the same system to ITe
i-
irt? The present system of making the priests of t•
thueill" Catholic Church in Ireland so depend:
Pc sale was the means of causing thosetd t upon'Prliests
seto
.
ewpathise with, and to further the prejudices and opt-
tialnats of the pee le while by placing the priests on
Natoi.
's ependent footing they would obviate that evil.
re who had p tid any attention to the history of Ire.
sa,ncli could fail to have seen the bad effects of such a
'lem. It was said that the Roman Catholic clergy-
teen did not themselves respect the law; but had they
not respected the law, Ireland would hive been in a dif-
ferent state from what it was at present. No doubt the
"an Catholics of Ireland were, as a body, disaffscted,
adill' no wonder that they should be so, while they saw a
urch established amongst them, eating up the re-
sources of their country, while the great majority of the
I),°°Ple repudiated its doctrines. By appropriating the
evenues of that Church for other purposes, and doing
Cawhauyrchwith that sectarian feeling which, while that
th
prev Establishment existed in Ireland, would still
they would be conferring the greatest benefit on
wail,People of Ireland.
a Sair G. GREY—I wish to relieve at once the anxiety
11U apprehensions expressed by the Hon. and Gallant
inelzber for Middlesex, that the Government would, on
this occasion, move the previous question; for, however
4 may differ from him in thinking that there may be
°Ce("i°°% on which moving the previous question
lislotohke
rroPer way of meeting the point at issue, t
.whenis
made,
ii_.t the circumstances under whidchoethisanmdothe
object
he
!he particular effects
confesses_. be has in view,itmay
opnroot think this question one
in that manner, and, as lam not which can b© met. H
pre-
Pared to entertain the eu. and Gallant Gentleman's,
l'iSti, I consider I am justified in at once voting against
the
Member
motion.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant
"Aember warned the Government that they were not to
e°llgratulete themselves on the present circurnstincea
and condition of Ireland. That the circumstances
tt4 condition of that country are not such as
-an "fir a prospect of unmitigated satisfaction, I
ae'Ple regret to say I concur with him in
sira!'sing- Oa the contrary, it is one which it is itnpos-
au; I,r any person to contemplate wi. hunt deep pie
the tezret ; but at the same time I am unable to tee in
, e motion the Honourable and Gallant Member has
;ought forward the slightest hope that it would remedy
the social evils, which are the real evils at presstit, of
trt!',tic., or that it would facilitate her improvi went
lieo*ottl,leralistened with attention t i the specter of the
latiedonudtlb4n. Member tor M. (Mr. Moore). I must say
•v,•r but little iillYsUppo:t of the
tl Gallant Geettarra., Hon•iurahle
'A plan. The H nourable Gen-
itima aeltil(eluilre.tNet,i)(t7').saYeahe tit pert;the 'motion becate:e
aisle political d° remove domestic grievance and diaoi
Will
halve
a t,,ndiszontent. I, on the contrary, think it
lo revive that ataieaYeati" excite domestic discontent, and
anyes' in Ireland at '''''lllietu to of wnich we have
hornier the
Period._ Ls present moment than at
able and Gallant es (Rest, hear.) The amour-
time of the
ii we-ratter occupied much of the 1
Pressed by eta' "so in quoting sentiments ex-
Governnsee„ 'rent Membersof the H ruse and of the
to ei, on ti.,:_ .
r-fq. to the 0 en,is qustion, an I he did me the honour
t°l'it PlaceinlB4i)4l ."11
I expressed in the debate which
silence on
our , adding i hat th; re had been an eminous
that lreno th part from that pen iod to the present. and
°t the ita, e time when my y Noble Friend the Frat Lord
the Irish Ca'ury brought forward his motion respecting
said re, hOrch to this, there had never been one word
II
ills
•pecting 'that question within the walls of the
14,1) , a Net which he declared it to be his intention to
efter elithe teem' try of Governments—( i fear, hear.) Now,
in
the the research of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
lecti,e,Pages of Hansard, and after all his pains in col-
of
ogeehis want suitable to his purpose, I must complain
d
Gallant-alcit !memory in return. The Honourable an
inl a '
R„ --entiernan seems to have forgotten the debate
eca"", which led to a protracted discussien. On that
„senetkul I repeated-the opinions I had expressed before
tootle e4aotly such as he, in order to recommend his
ever n t° the House, quoted them—but such as I have
hearreteined and now adhere to on this question—( Hear,
itaa L'Cnamely, opinions against the policy, the justice,
other e expediency of msintaining in Ireland, or in any
State country, an Established Church endowed by the
0 , that Church being the Church of the minority.
herst, Stand cries of s• Hear, hear,"
Zion.Mem-
. ' ear, from several
before but have repeatedly expressed these opinions
there , I now ask the Hon. and Gall int Gentleman if
tnen_
of anything in this plan of his affecting the endow-
mat . the Este.olished Church, or is there any remedy
Gzned in it for that grievance? The Honourable sad
allow" ember, in humble imitation—l hope he will
poses me to say—of a greater man than himself; pro-
at, following out the plan of Lord Stanley, who,
them there Were twenty Bishops in Ireland, reduced
„ to ten, we should reduce those ten to five.—hear,
ea)
r. ro
, seta, does he propose there should be any en-
ticAwnsent of the Roman Catholic Church? Cer artily
'pt. the But the five Bishops would still be endowed by
But
as the Bishops of our Estatilished Church, and
Idt'idou ald enjoy the Church revenu's; and. so long as they
b°, the question, which I have: repeatedly expressed
InY belief to be a question not of money but of feeling,
would remain untouched.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Gallant Gentleman also forgets the subject was dis-
etissed at the close of 1848, when I must do him the
jU•tice he forgot to render to himself, in reminding him
he brought it before the House it, a speech on the gene-
ral state of Ireland, and when I stated in reply to him
the views I have- always expressed on this subject. But
,n.akayl,w while n this subject, ask the Ron. anti Gallant
tiendeman when he accuses us tit' changing our opinions
Why he has changed his plan since th• n?—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman talks of a ciimpro
raise but there must
,-se.
be two parties to a coinpr,imt ~
that his is in the confidence of
aild I have vet to learn
s
this Roman Catholics ot Ireland, or that this plan of his
will remedy all their discontent. I must remind the
ll'l- and Gallant Gentleman, when he says I have
rnsititaitied an ominous silence on this qu•.stii•ti since
1844, that ou the 29th July, 1848. I spoke as fellows:-
4'
lam u••t prepared to deny, but to affirm, that the ex-
istence of an exclusive Protestant Church in Ireland
(the Protestant Episcopalians b ing a small minority
itsly of the population) is so anomaily unjustifiable in
origin aid indeten-able now. I know co other coun-
try ,-
r Eurnpe in which the same experiment has been
'1 u e
—in which the same attempt has been carried out;
"ad lam quite prepared to say that the wisdom and
lisheY of the attempt in Ireland must be condeinued by
eresults." I will not troub e the 11. else with repeat-
l_ may more of what I then expressed; but I think I
e ns: said enough to exonerate myself from the charge
`;,ll%viiag preserved the ominous silence of which the
tua, el. and Gallant Gentleman accused me. L king
back, however, to the speech I delivered in 1844, of
Which the Hon. and Gallant Member has given partial
qnota.bttions, leaving out the pith of my opinions—l no
expressed myself with respect to the facility of
'i measure to redress the grievance and remedy the
evils.complained of in terms stronger than I would now
adopt—(Cn
R. pa aas eel's ) When the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
of ma' i intro tue,'d hi, Bill to increase the endowment
ynooth r
and - qualified the opinions I expressed in 1844, said that whilst I hailed. the measure as the first step ,
towards removing what hscl beentlt to be a stigma and
insult I did not press it on the Government to advance
he least degree further than they could go with a
psrol;pect of suceess.—(Hear, hear.) Since that time the
eu
tject has occupied much of the attention of her Ma-
-38 re Government. They have anxiously desired to
the a renaedy for the evils of which they recognised
existence
lima, but when the Hon. Gentleman the
r for Mayo 'M Moore)says the prejudices
a r.
of the people of
this country are an obstacle to the
satisfactory settlement of and that
lion, ,s the question,
e Members come to this II )use prepared to vote
against their consciences
a in deference to the prejudices of
their constituents,other . I must remind him that there are
grounds
coned. I of difficulty besides those he has men
must remind hitn that one groat bar to the set-
tlement. of that question is the avowed, and repeated, and
determined resolution (as far as we can judge) of the
1t... men Catholic hierarchy, and of the body of
ttota,a great the
Catholic clergy and laity,nut to consent to any
scheme by which their ` (Cheers.) We are. • L
Church should be endowed.—
when
when the Roman
canttnn
itin. toe same pesitton as we were
for admission to the civil were petitioning Perlietnent
were unjustly debre-red" ciorivileges from which they
but I believe a mistaken! Zn 1. we have a strong, honest,
country and of Scotland, e Le.g among the people of this
Rernan Cstt olio Church, waghTsa the endowment of the
of the hierarchy and clergy we have
the great body
against such a measure.---(Elear.)
‘tv7heurch protesting
be the case I ask myself, is it worth while
feel this to
opinions we may entertain, to panp„se a
cah,ll,a, whatevernien
Would give rise to great animosity, contentiosnureanwd de
bate—excite much opposition, and which, insteal of bein
accepted as a boon, would be rejected by those for whomg
We asked it? I am not prepared now, therefore, any
More than I was last year, te go into a Committee of the
whole [imam with the Hen. and Gallant Member to
cripple the resources of the Established Church in
Irehaid, and with the view of taking that mutilation
only as an instalment, leaking, as I understood him, to the
ultimete extinction and abolition iif that Church alto•
L,..etliee. I shall not go into all the topics adeencel by
we Hon. and Gallant Gentleman, but this I may that - say,
with regard to trust property I am not prepared
t? go the length which, according to him, Lord Brougham
a_ljtc.in days gone by. He said the property of the Church
U. d the. pay of the army were on the same footing.
bet Mr. le OABORNE.Sir James N.I sekintesh said the
e thing.—( A laug'i )
Cr. GREY--W hether the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
quotes the Noble Lord correctly I unable
o or not am
Bay, but,
whet,
ow lord Brougham or Sir James

lekintosh said I!, I am not prepart.d to agree to the
p:iiiciple so broadly laid down. I am, however, quite
prepared to cl-aw a distinction between trust and private
property,-and there arc Acts on the statute4,oolc which
sho,v that Parliament hai exercised the right 41
istli,g for trust prop, rty, and of msltir;g r,gulations
wit regard to it which they would not make f.pr private
proper

LION MEMBER—What of Lord Lansdowne?
GREY—As to Lord Lensdowne's geestion,
as ,ee country made e:r the Church, or the Church
r the country?" I have no hesitation in sayieg
t believe the Church should be made for the
country—that the only object of its establishmPnt is to
teach religion and to watch over the formation of the
morals of the p-ople—and that the Church which fails
in this must fail in everything else.—(Rear, hear.) Nor
would I rely on the sth article of the union us a bar to
the moti,n, any more than it was a bar ma a former oc-
casion when the Noble Lord asked the House to go into
Committee on the ..ilinrch Tempo-alitiea Act, though I
r-gard it certainly as .O.ppnsing a bar to the absolute ex-
tote,ion of the E.tablished Church in Ireland.—(Hear.)
The lion Metnoer said very truly, if we were allowed to
Fe:iglu de novo no one would think of establishing in Ire.
land such a Chuteh as exists there at present; but I must
recall the Hun. Member's attention to the difference be-
tween the original institution of a Church end a Church
which has existed or 200 years. The Hon. Member
(Mr. Moore) alluded to the past history of that Church,
and said 't was written in characters of bLiod ; aed,
speaking of the horrors which had taken place since its
first establishment, declared they surpassed those of the
invisaion. But I could hive hoped the same
feeling which made him doubt whether he had dune right
in alluding to those occurrences in darker times and ages
long gone by would have induced him to pause ere he
did so, or to haw• at least moderated his language. I for
ode think the terms used by the Hon. Member were too
strong. and I must remind him we are "ealing with the
Church that now exis s, not with that which existed cen-
turie-s ago. I must regret that, having mentioned those
topics, he did not feel it was his duty also to advert to
the conduct of the Protestant clergy, and to bear his
testimony to the untiring beneficence and indefatigable
endeavours of that body during the recent period 01
famine—(" Hear, hear" from Mr. Moore)—to their de-
sires and labours to mitigate the distress of the people
without religious or party distinction, and to the good
produced by their zealous and noble exertions.—(llear,
hear.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex stated that I
was a member of the Irish Society, having subscribed
to its funds. The Irish Society, however, is not con-
nected with the Irish Church. It is a voluntary society,
supported by voluntary subscriptions; and the Honour-
able Gentleman, being an advocate of the voluntary
system, has no right to object on his own principles to
the rxisteice of a society whose members have tor the
object or their association how to benefit their fel-
low•creatures. I have a knowledge of its former
history, though not of its recent acts ; but I have
the strongest reason to believe that the object of
the society was to send forth men in the missionary
spirit who could speak the Irish language, and would,
by speaking the Irish language, be enabled to con
vey spiritual and moral instruAion to many of their
ellow countrymen, to whom such instruction would

otherwise be inaccessible. But if the Hon. llemb tr
means to charge me with cherishing any sympathy for,
or giving any assistance to those who would take advan-
tage of the distress in Ireland to withhold relief from
the people except on the condition of abjuring their
faith, and who would thus be making temporal aid a
means of seducing them from that faith, I can only say
that I utterly repudiate any such imputation—(Hear,
hear]—and in doing so, I shall add that I have no reason
to believe that there is any member of that Irish Society,
or any pers in connected with it, who could be capable of
such comluct. The Hon. Gentleman real an exiract of
a speech delivered by some person whom he described as
an scent of that society.—(4lr. Osborne—" A clergy-
insti ") I a.n not responsible for that speech, and with
the sentiments I cannot profess the slightest sympathy.
The Honourable Gentleman also lead a letter pur
portin; to be from the Lord Lieutenant of Irela•n 1,
in which it was said that " the loyalty of the
IT'Atholice was not to he trusted." I believe the Lori .
Lieutenant said no such thing. The lion. Gentleman
did not mention the date of that letter. He is a
person of se much research that it is impossible to follow
him through all the documente he has quoted.--(A.
laugh.) Bur, from all my intercourse with the Lord-
Lieutenent, there is no person, I am convinced, less
likely to express such a sentiment ; and I believe his
opinion to be, as it is the opinion of myself and others,
that there is a eeneral spirit of loyalty and attachment
towards the sovereign ot this realm pervading the great
body of the people of Ireland—(Hcer, hear)—with cer-
tain exceptions, which have now, I hope, ceased to
exist.. Ide nut think that I need enter into a defence
ot the Established Church of Ireland. That may well
he left in the hands or the Honourable Member for the
University of Dublin (Mr. G. A. Hamilton), who will
take grounds, however, which I should not, gene-
rally speaking, be able to take. But I was anxious
to re-state my opinions on the question which the
Honourable Member for Middlesex has raised, and to
remind the House of the great and paramount &fa-
culty which exists with respect to the terms on which it
can be settled ; and, till we can reasonably hope to be
able to propose a measure to Parliament which shall
carry out those views, I do not think it the duty of the
Government to follovi a course which could only have
the effect of leading to interminable discussions and
acrimonious debates. For these reasons I shall vote
against the motion. The Hon. Gentleman alluded to the
absence of my Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell). It is
owing to domestic causes which left him no alternative.
—(Hear, hear.) But for that circumstance, it was his
full intention to have been preseHt.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE observed, that the Right Hon.
Baronet, admitting that the Established Church of Ire-
land was a great injustice, argued as if that injustice
would be done away with by establishing another
Church. The state of the Irish Church had always been
the great grievance on which the movement for the re-
peat of the union rested. On what ground did those who
defended it take their stand? On the ground that re-
ligious truth ought to be maintained. But those who
argued so were parties to establishing Hindooism in
liidia, the Catholic religion in Malta and Canada, the
Presbyterian Church in Scotland How, then, could
they say that their object was to establish re,
ligious truth? Having sanctioned those various
establishments in deference to a majority of the
people in each instance, they yet established
in Ireland the Church of a small minority. Was
it on the ground of religious efficiency that the
Irish Church was defended? In the time of Charles 11.
the proportion of Protestants to Roman Catholics was
as 3 to 8; in 1824 the Protestants were to the Catholic's
ascßui ii)sou3tkrotc.rohyo,lr2iggri
.. i
society, ,
saslll
originally
ignorance
introducedeowi agrnkeaeprweupba
rlsifist,
lihrteodft
hbt
ehye theucse,,
mEt;
of
c 1,
thePrayerimputedclergymen
..Lbsolnt
that Church. and the editor remarked th ,t n
provision htd been made for having the Bookooriae
Com-
mon Prayer cireula ed in the Irish tongue, or fir
quiring that clergymen should speak the vernacular; it
havingbeen eteicted that the Book of Common Prayer
sh uld be read only in English or Latin. On the one
tted, there was a people speaking the Irish languege;
on the other, a Church established which pesitivele
enacted that no Irishman should be elected to a cure till
p-oclatnation had been made three times to see whether
an Englishman could be got. It was making men prac-
tical hypocrites to compel them to eupp irt a Church
whose dogmas they believed untrue, and whose preach-
ing they thought unsound. Was it on political grounds
that ttie Church established in Ireland could be de-
fended? Certainly that Church had not been the means
of procuring tranquillity. It had been said that the
Protestants went to Ireland with a sword in one hand
and a Bible in the other. They drew the sword, but
forgot to oiten the Bible. They had distinguished them-
selves more by confiscations than by concessions. And
what had constantly been the cause of agrarian disturb-
ance? It was to the injustice of the tithe system that
Rock, fuel Starlight, and the Peep-o'-Day Buys owed
their origin:—
" As long as Popish spade and scythe
shall deg and cut the Sassenach tithe,
And Popish purses pay the tolls
On Heaven's road for Sassenach souls;
As loag as millions shall kneel down
To ask of thousands for their own;
So Ling the happy reign shall be
Of Cevain Rack and his family 1"
The Church of Ireland had further been made odious as
a political engine; and the great body of the Irish people
had made up their minds that, by some means or other,
so great a practical abuse as that Church should be
abated.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON, while he could not approve
of the views stated by the Right Hun. Gentleman the
Secretary for the Home Deportment, must make his
acknowledgments for the intimation of the Right Hon.
Gentleman's intention to meet the motion by a decided
ilhp by gr
itantoil- i
fvr e'.tf—(He.)
c' ao
Governmentnr ,s
e ciheuaern.
c)
ews i
tNt
hh oarnepfoaelnii.ceyyn
ewceeotauokl init
hebses3 attended
the Church at that time. He regretted that thesuqobujne
had been raised by the Hon. Member for Nliddlesex—
actttihoonef
riot that he shrank from the argument, but that since
1834—since discussions on the same theme had, as it
were, by common consent been abandoned, the acrimony
of political feeling and religious ci
tileenrttrnoe4vesr:ay hadthe
Irishbeen
mitig 'led, and the rev. ted to the tval of either was to be iipreceteil.
..e
The MM. Member obi
Church at a tormer period. and now that it, was active he
said that it was prom dug hypocrisy. It would be
his (itr. Hamilton's) duty to point out what had been
done towards correcting the abuses in the Irish Church
to which the Him. Member had particularly adverted,
and he would pledge his character upon the accuracy of
any statements he might make. One of the primary
grounds of complaint against the Church in Ireland was
the existence of pluralities. Many Eon. elembers ima-
gined, p3rhaps, that pluralities existed to a great extent
in the Irish Cruirch, and that there were no means of cor-
recting the abuse. In 1834 the number of pluralities in
the Irish Church was 81; in 1843, the date of the last
re.urn, tee number had been reduced to 34.—( !ear.
hear.) The process of reduction was still in progress.
No fresh pluralities could be crested except through a
faculty granted by the Primate o' Irelend, and no such
faculty had been granted since 1828. In point of fact,
the system of pluralities was fast disappearing under
the administration of that distinguished Prelate. Sim,-
e'ves lurniened another ground of complaint against the
Irish Church; but under the Church Tetnporelities Act
and subsequent Acts ample prevision was made for the
correction of thee abuse. Another defect in the establish-
flirt upon which its opponents laid great stress was the
existence of unions. It was true that the existence of
untena was an abuse which once prevailed to a great ex-
tent in Ireland, but it had been abated by the operation
of. the Church TeMporalities Act, which invested the
Le.-.1-Lieute .ant in Coieiteil %kith poser to dissolve
iunions. No fewer than 53 unions had been dissolved
since 1833. Some few unions yet remained, because
they were indispensable under the existing circumstances

of the country. Some of the parishes were o such ex-
tremely limited extent—for instance, one in Cork was
entirely eceupied by a distillery, and another consisted
of only 40 separe yards—that if they were not united
there would he no provision whatever for the clergyman.
Another ground of conaidaint Was the'non-residence of
toe clergy; tut this defect was fast disappearing. In
1813 the number of beneficed clergymen in the diocese
of Armagh was 82, cf whom 15 were non-resident; in
1849 the number of beneficed clergymen had increased
to 102, whilst the number of those non-resident was
reduced to five, two of whom were non-resident on
act:emit of illness. In 1819 the number of beneficed
clergymen in the diocese of Meath was 94, of whom 20
were non-resident; in 1849 the number of beneficed
clergymen had increased to 107, and the number non-
resident was reduced to seven. In 1819 the number of
beneficed clergymen in the dioCese of Oseory and Ferns
was 147, of whom 45 were non-resident; in 1849 the
number of beneficed clergymen had increased to 244,
and the note residents were reduced to nine. In 1819
there were 109 beneficed clergymen in the diocese of
Cashel and Waterford, of whom 52 were non-resident;
in 1849 the number of clergymen had increased to 121,
whilst that of non-resident was reduced to nine.—
(Hear.) Heel he been table to procure returns from the
usher dioceses in Ireland, they would have exhibited
similar results.—.(Hear, hear.) The alleged excessive
wealth of the Church in Ireland had long furnished a
toeie for declamation against the establishment. In
1833 Lord Althorp was oblige] to acknowledge that on
no subject had such exaggerated statemeros been put
forth as with respect to the revenues of the Irish Church,
and he (Mr. Hamilton) must he allowed to say that a
little of the old spirit of exaggeration was apparent in
the remarks of the Hon. Member fur Middlesex upon
this-tepic. The Hon. Member steted that the income of
the Irish clergy amounted to 680,8361, and that of the
Church altogether to 852.0001. The property of the
Church was divided amongst the parochial clergy, dig-
nitaries, and bishops. It appeared from the evidence of
Mr. Quin, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that
the gross income of the Irish clergy was 453 0941., and
their net income 369,3601., without deducting the poor-
rates. The amount of rates struck during the year
eliding the 31st of Dscember,lB4B, througout Ireland,
was 2s. 9id. in the pound; and it was truly stated in
that House, a few evenings since, that the moment a
rate was struck in Ireland landlords deducted the
amount, as they were empowered to do by the Church
Temporalities Act, from • the clergyman's rent-
charge. It was therefore necessary to deduct from the.
net income of the clergy, namely, 369,3601., the amount
taken from it by the landlords for poor-rate, which was
63 2441, and would reduce the net income of the clergy
to 306,116/.--(Elear.) But there was still another de-
duction to be made from the income of the clergy,
namely, the sum which they paid to their curates, which
the Ecclesiastical Gtmmissioners returned at 56.708/.
That deduction twinz made, the net income of the clergy
of the Irish Church stool at 249 4081., which divided
amongst them. independently of curetes, would .give an
average of 1721. 16s. 2d. for each eler,gyman.—(flear,
hear.) According to the last census, and making no
allowance for the subs.quent increase of population,
there was a congregation of 590 members of the Church
ot England for each clergyman. Now, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex wou d net think of offering a clergy-
man with such a congrt gatien less than 1721. a year,
and, theretore, it was evident that if he succeeded in
establishing his congregational principle he would be
unable to effect any saving. -(llear ) The net income
of twenty ot the 1 srgest benefices in Ireland was 14,1291.,
being an average of 7081. for each, which could not be
deemed very extravagaiite-e(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Th:4 largest b.-nefice in Ireland was that of Temple-
more, at weed to the deanery of Derry. It contained 8
churches, 15 schools, in which LOCO children were edu-
cated, and the incumbent kept nine curates. The present
income of this, the largest benefi.ie in Ireland, was only
1,5521.—(Hear.) He would admit that the smallness of
particular congregations was an evil incident to the pa-
rochial system, and it was one from which England was
not exempt. The Commissioners of Public Instruction
reported that there were in 1834 forty-four benefices in
Ireland in which there were no congregations belonging
to the Established Church. Twenty of these livings
had lapsed to the general fund, and twenty-one still
existed, of which several would shortly lapse. But if the
House were to abolish at once these twenty-one bene-
fices in which there was no congregation belonging to
the Established Church, the net income derivable there-
from would be 1,2351. If they took the revenues of the
100 parishes in which there were the smallest congre-
gations they would derive a yearly sum of 9.0491. The
cross income of the dignitaries of the Established Church
in Ireland—leans, archdeacons, prebendaries, &c., excite.
elusive of bishops and archbishops—was 23.000/, or
21,0001. net. The next class was the bishops, a reasonable
income for whom had been hell to be about 4.0001. The
grass income of the English bishops was 6,6831., and their
net income 5,9311. The gross total income of the Irish
Bishops was 40,5331., giving an average income to each
Bishop of 4,0551. 'The Archbishops received 15,8081.;
nod the total income of Irish Archbishops and Bishops
was 56,3811. There were 814 glebe-houses to 1,450 be-
nefices, and there were great numbers of applications of
pressing necessity for the building of new and the repair
of old churches, which it was impossible to meet, from
the want of funds. He trusted that he had stated suffi-
cient to correct the errors and gross exaggerations pre-
valent respecting the wealth of the Irish Church.—
Clear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Mayo (Mr.
Moore) declared that the Irish Church bad not fulfilled
the object fur which it had been established, but he
should have thought that the sacrifices made by the
clergy of the Established Church during the late dis-
tress sufficiently disproved the assertion that no social
advantages had resulted from the existence of that
Church. lie bad always held that the Irish Church
ought to be sustained and upheld as a missionary
and aggressive Church.—(Hear, hear.) Thei Noble
Lord the Member for Arundel said that he
would not give a farthing for a Church that
was not a missionary church and aggressive in its cha-
racter. Truth clout] only be promoted by the collision
of opinions, and he considered it to be the duty equally
of Protestants and Roman Catholics to propogate their
views, provided that in doing so they did not violate
Christian charity. The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government said on the 16th of July, 1846, in reference
to this subj,ct, that the destruction of the Protestant
Church in Ireland would be a fatal measure in a political
point of view, as it would alienate the feelings of many of
the most loyal inhabitants of Ireland; and in a religious
point of view, because it would ho the commencement
of a religious war, in which the most vi.dent attack
would be made on the R man Catholic Church ; and
that he believed the Roman Catholics themselves would
he the first to complain ot.the destruction of the Protes-
tant Church. He (Mr. flemilton) believed that the Noble
Lord had not in the slight st degree exaggerated the
feelings of the great mass of the Roman Catholics in that
reap .et He b lieved that the great body of that Church,
that
question
ietesf
ote ahlonylui
durrnheni,i7:vEiwhwel
civilisation.—(['leer.)
n; would net seek the destruction of
at
I_,
a)wfn: eg.e)lql calculated.
ndetaint,
bthefeo promote
rlteiooeuxspor
expressed
e ad
had so
tits opinions. The Hon. Gentleman )wla > had just sat
dr,,,lwitnieshaadridcaoltleh,elrthreeaatuttreentoiofntohfe tEhll-10:19
shneed:Chthuerehplain-
Ireland, nut one of which was mentioned"i
of the lion. M-mber for Middlesex. lie (Mre. motion
had risen to complain that the Right Hon. Baronet had
not grappled in any fair way with the motion of his
Hon. Friend. The Injury, morally and socially, which
the Church in Ireland inflicted on the people was de-
plorahle, and it would be sound policy to put a stop to
the evil—an evil which inflected degradation on every
Catholic in the country.—(Bear.) He had only to say
that he considered the motion of his Hon. Friend, in a
financial point of view, as of great importance, and, as
affecting the morals of the people, as of the greatest
weight. The Right Hon. Baronet, in opposing the
motion, went off on the plea that the Church had been
rooted 300 years; but it had, be (Mr. Hume) was sorry
to say, grown very badly—(Laughter)—and while it
increased but little, if at all, the Cstholic Church in-
creased twelvefold. The price of supporting the Church
of Ireland, as it was now supported, cost the people of
England 50,000 armed men. He felt that every Irishman
must rise daily and feel himself in relation to the state and
operation of the Church, a degraded mortal ; and
what was more, he had the additional mortification of
hearing the minority on every Sunday, railing against
the majority who paid for the support of their Church,
keeping up a state of antagonistic feeling in the country.
Was it not too bad to find the minority thus abusive of
the majority who were compelled to support them? The
time, however, he would tell the House, was come, when
they must deal with the people of Ireland on a very
different footing in respect to that Church.—(Hear, hear.)
Let them look to Scotland. It the Government had suc-
ceeded in planting in that country, as was done in Ire-
land, a Church which was alien to the feelings of its
people, would Scotland be the country which it was
now? No; It would be in the same state that Ireland
was now.—(Hear, hear.), It was admitted that while in
England the people enjoyed their own religion, and
while in Scotland the people enjoyed their own religion,
Ireland was placed in the anomalous situation of seeing.
the majority of her people taxed, in order that the mi-
d_eriitiheeanr,, t h ahte da
ri 3.
cnoy might
,nritten
texi e s
texi exist Was
tha
that
t anyc w
o
unt ? )
Let them assign any other cause. He admitted
that bad laws prevailed in the country. forming a source
of discontent; but the great cause of discontent was the•
state of the Established Church in that country—a
Cause which his Hon. Friend made as clear as
anything ceuld be. The Church was the foundation on
which Repeal" and every other association was based,
lie could never forget the speech of the Right Hon.
B arnnet (Sir Robert Peel) when he was leaving office,
and surrendering power into the hands of the present
Ministers, in relation to the Irish Church. The Right
Hun. Baronet said on that occasion that ho should sup
port the Ministers in their efforts to remove those causes
of discontent arising from one class of religion being
placed in the ascendant over another. Theßieht Hon.
Baronet knew that the men who now occupied the Minis-
terial benches had been railing for forty years against
the abuse, and ho thought that they would be the party
to remove that grievance; but ho (Mr. flume) regretted
that the Right Honourable Baronet and the public were
disappointed in that opinion. The clinging of the
Church party to the more y—he meant the revenues of
the Church—convinced him that they were doubtful of
their own Church and that they felt that without those
means the Cnurch, of England would fall. It was impos-
sible that any people (unless they were slaves) could
submit to such a state ot injustice and degradation. The
revenues of the Church of Eogland were public money—
they were public property taken by Parliament from
one sect, and given by Parliament to another sect.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He only rose to express
his regret that the Government were' not prepored to
favour the motion of his Hon. Friend for the appeititment
of 't Committee to take into consideration the state of
Vie Irish Church, with a view to a correction of its
abuses.—(Hear, hear.)
bf.r. P. WOOD was anxious on this 00004i012 to ex-