The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-05 00:00:00

THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third time and passed:
Chester and Holyhead Railway (Increase of Capital,
with Powers to the London and North-Western Railway
Company to subscribe thereto).
Kirkcaldy Harbour, Docks, Ferry, and Petty Customs.
Sunderland Dock Act and River Wear Commissioners'
Act (Amendment, &c.)
Whittlesey St. Mary and Whittlesey St. Andrew
Union of Parishes, and for improving the Town of
Whittlesey.

PETITIONS.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE presented petitions against
the Registration and Marriages Bills.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS presented a petition from St.
Asaph, numerously signed, praying that no bishops or
clergymen might be appointed for Wales unless they
were conversant with the Welsh language,'and attribu-
ting the spread of dissent to.the non-observance of this
rule.

Colonel REID presented a petition from the Dissen-
ters at Windsor, against the proposed alteration of the
marnage.laws._

Colonel SIBTRORP presented a petition to the same
effect.
__

An MN. MEMBER presented a petition in favour of
medical reform.
An HON. MEMBER presented a petition in favour of
the Clergy Relief Bill.
Mr. COWPER
presented a petition praying that the
owners instead of occupiers might bo rated for small
tenements.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the
archdeacons and clergy of the Archdeaconry of Oxford
against the New Marriage Bill. The Right Ron.
Baronet presented a similar petition from Manchester.
Lord G. MANNERS presented a petition in favour of
protection, and a national rate.
Mr. MOFFATT presented a petition against the new
Drainage Bill.
Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from medical
1349119t4hin Prgalit intormural intermtuits. '

Mr. COBDEN presented petitions from York and
other places in favour of the Clergy Relief Bill.l
Mr. COWAN presented petitions from Edinburgh
against the Marriage and Registration Bills (Scotland).
Sir E. BUXTON presented a petition from Birming-
ham praying that the produce of slave countries might
not be admitted into this country until they abolished
the slave trade.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE presented petitions from
Peeblesahire against the Registration and Lunatic
Asylum Bills (Scotland).
Mr. MILES presented petitions from Somersetshire
complaining of the amount of the recent grants to
Ireland.
Major BERESFORD presented a petition from Saf-
fron Weldon, praying that some control might be exer-
cised over the county rates.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR gave notice that, on this day
fortnight, he should call attention to the transaction of
railway companies throughout the United Kingdom.
Mr. THORNELY begged to ask the Lord Advocate
when it is likely that any Bill for medical registration
would be introduced ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said that in eight or ten
days he should be enabled to place a measure on the
table of the House.
In answer to a question from Mr. CARDWELL,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he had not received
any communication from Captain Denholme with respect
to the excessive loading of steamers. When that was
received, it would be placed on the table of the House.
Lord DUDLEY STUART asked whether there was
a measure in contemplation for amending the Metropo •
litan Building Act?
Sir GEORGE GREY said no notice had been given
of the question.
Lord DUDLEY STUART said, notice had been
given of a question with respect to intramural burials. He
wished to know when a measure on this subject would
be introduced?
Sir G. GREY said that a Bill had been prepared un-
der the auspices of his Noble Friend at the head of the
Woods and Forests; but as it required reconsideration,
it was determined to bring it on at a later period of the
session.
Lord DUDLEY STUART—We may hope for it this
session?

Sir G. GREY—I hope so.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House at its rising
do adjourn till Monday next.
BURIALS IN TOWNS.
Mr. WYLD presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Westminster against interment in towns.
THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.
In answer to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that, so far as he was con-
cerned, there was no foundation for a statement said
to have been made by Mr. G. F. Young respecting a
conversation represented to have taken place between
him (Mr. Labouchere) and Mr. Hume, in reference to
the repeal of the navigation-laws. He had received a
letter from Mr. Hume, who was too ill to be seen,
intimating that the statement made by Mr. Young
at the meeting in the City, to the effect that if
Mr. Hume would assent to the third reading of the Na-
vigation Bill he (Mr. Labouchere) would next session
bring in a Bill to repeal all the clauses in the Bill to
which Mr. Hume was said to have objected was en-
tirely without foundation.
LAND IMPROVEMENT AND DRAINAGE (IRE-
LAND) (ADVANCES) BILL.
On the House going into Committee on this Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
wished to say a few words on the present state
of Ireland. He entirely differed from those Honour-
able Gentlemen who seemed to conceive that all
at once, by some legislative measure, the whole
state of Ireland could be ameliorated. The change
which was required in that country was a total change
in the social system of the west of Ireland. They must
now look to an entire change in the social system in that
part of the country. Nobody could be more mistaken
in his opinion than those who thought there could
be no improvement in the present state of the west of
Ireland. He agreed rather with those who felt that
there were better prospects in store for the coun-
try. No doubt great evils existed in that
part of the country to which ho had referred, owing to
the large number of small tenants who held under
middlemen, and without the means of eviction, which
had been resorted to during the last six
months, he was quite sure that no improve-
ment whatever could have been effected. Under
the recent system the landlord depended upon the mid-
dleman, the middleman upon the small tenant, and the
small tenant upon the potato. When, therefore, the po-
t tto was stricken with the blight all these classes
and the result had since been that the land now remained
uncultivated, because it had been impoverished by the
previous mode of culture. The letter of Captain Ken-
nedy to the Poor-law Commissioners gave a correct pic-
ture of the evil—one, too, that proved, beyond all ques-
tion, that the case was one which no
possible legislation could meet. What was really
wanted to effect a remedy was the application of capital
to the land by those who were ready and willing to invest
it. It' there were any such, as he wes assured there were,
Government was ready to assist them; but, besides that,
all that Government could do was to relieve those
whose estates were too much incumbered to admit of
their being disposed of in the market. To show what
improvement had been effected by a new system of farm-
ing introduced into Ireland, he need only mention
the case cited the other night by the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamwor th,
adding, at the same time, that even in the dreadfully
distressed union of Ballina, which not lcng ago was
thought to be in a hopeless condition, some capitalists
cennected with the Ssciety of Friends in Yorkshire had
done an immense amount of good by taking farms
in the union, and adopting the English mode of terming.
lie had received a letter yesterday which he considered
the House would think with him was of a very satisfac-
tory nature. It was from Mr. Burke, the inspector of
the Ballina Union, in the county of Mayo. It
stated that the pursuance of the acts of indus-
try have increased, and that a general opinion
prevailed amongst those with whom he had conversed
that the people desired to draw out the resources of the
sell, an evidence of which was to be found in the fact
that the cultivation of waste lands had been set about.
Coming from one of the most poverty •strieken
districts of Ireland, such a communication could not be
regarded otherwise than most cheering and satisfactory.
He could read a number of other communications, all
tending to show that better days were dawning upon
Ireland, but he did not wish to fatigue the
House.—(Hear.) He believed he should he enabled
to satisfy the House that the grants heretofore made had
led to the profitable employment of large masses of the
people. He might observe that the Government pos-
sessed 43 inspectors, without whose sanction no money
was expended, and who exercised a careful supervision
over the expenditure of the money which had been ad-
vanced. They were the best guardians that could be
appointed, and they prevented the useless expenditure of
the public money. Without referring to any other mea-
sures that might be necessary for the welfare of Ire-
land, he thought that that which was really wanted
was employment fur the people.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed and looked forward confidently
to the time when the desire for employ-
ment would not exceed the demand. The
first power which he intended to seek from
the House was that the money to be advanced might be
made in accordance with the Lands Improvement
Act; that Act providing, according to his idea,
tee best mode of applying the money to
proper and wholesome purposes—since, under it, the
relations between landlord_ and tenant were pre-
seried, and the influence exercised by the Government
only extended to ordering that the money was properly
expended, and the improvements of the land properly
made. Out of the grants previously made 3,074,0001.
had been applied for, and the advance of 1,500,0001. or
one-half, sanctioned by the Government. The appeal for
grants made to the Government amounted to 1,544,0001.,
given up 112,000/.—resanctioned, 59,0001; so that there
was now lent (as we understood, for the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman articulated his figures indistinctly) 1,491,0001.,
leaving a reserve of about 9,000 L 948,0001. had been
issued, leaving for the employment of labour 952,0001.
By the application of skill and industry, under the Land
Improvement Act, land in some parts of Ireland which,
two years ago, was not worth half-a-crown an acre, was
now worth 10r. an acre. Indeed, from the im-
proved system of drainage, the land, upon an average,
was improved in value 80 percent. He knew an instance
where 175 acres of arable land occupied by tenants,
some of whom were ejected and others of whom had
emigrated, had been turned to, grazing pur-
poses, and within less than two years it yielded a
return of 10 per cent. On an average the whole
of the arable land laid down to pasture had given a
return of 8L per cent. With respect to arterial
drainage there was some considerable misapprehension
on this subject, as to what was the state of
the law, and great disappointment had been felt in Ire-
land that an unlimited supply of money was not always
forthcoming. The intention of the Act was
that all funds for that purpose were to be raised
by the issue of debentures. He heard very great fault
had been found with the Board of Works, because they
had not undertaken works when, as it was alleged, they
had funds to carry them on. It was only
fair before such complaints were made that the
.parties
making them should have taken the trouble to inquire
whether the Board of Works really had funds to
carry on such improvements. Honourable Gentle-
men must remember that in 1847 those works in
many parts of Ireland were undertaken with the
view of affording out-relief; and works which
would not have been undertaken were under-
taken at that time with the view of affording
employment to the poor in distressed districts.
At University Hall in Galway, land which formerly
only produced 301. per annum had been effectually
drained, and now yielded the landlord 1301.—(Hear,
hear.) At Borrisokaine, land which previous to
the drainage was completely covered with flood, was
now in a state of profitable cultivation. Formerly it
was valued at 2s. an acre, now it paid no less than
13s. per acre, and the whole expense of working
this beneficial change would be about 9s. per acre
for twenty years. Notwithstanding, then, what
had been said against the Board of Works,
he thought the works completed under their
direction had been most successful, and he should pro-
pose, therefore, to the House to advance a further sum
for carrying out arterial drainage.—(Hear.) He pro-
posed to advance this year a sum which, to the extent of the
reports, might be expended on works already commenced in
the distressed counties, and also upon works the preliminary
proceedings connected with which had been completed. The
counties which were most distressed were Mayo, Galway,
Clare, Roscommon, Leitrim, Cork, Sligo, Limerick, and
Tipperary, and the money which had been expended in those
counties amounted to 270,0001. The repayment of money
which had been made amounted to 300,0001., of that sum
100,0001. was re-issuable under the Act of last session.
Having made those statements to the House, the Right
Eon. g040:21414 C9INIRCIOCI by akin 11141 a MI of 1A0%14

be advanced for the purpose of carrying out the objects of
the Land Improvement Act, and 200,0001. for river drainage,
the amount to be advanced out of the Consolidated Fund of
England and Ireland.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE said, the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken great credit for
arterial drainage in Ireland; but he (Mr. Ormsby Gore):was
in possession of returns from more than one county,
which showed that the experiment was to the landed pro-
prietors of the country a most expensive one. He had been
charged for these operations by the Government 2001. for
the drainage of six acres 20 perches. The drains were 2ft.
6in. deep, Ift. 2in. over, which was at the rate of 32!. 13s.
per acre.
Mr. F. FRENCH said the expense was so great in these
cases that parties, on viewing the estimates presented for
their execution, would not proceed with their improvements.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was hope for
the future ; but he could assure him that the only hope was
upon the broad cast of potatoes set this year, upon which
they relied, but if that crop failed, the famine of 1850 would
be much more severe than that of 1846 and 1847. The Hon.
Gentleman then gave a description of the state of Mayo,
which he said was in the greatest distress. If something was
not done to improve the country, and to develops its re•
sources, it would be as a millstone round the neck of Eng-
land, and would finally be its ruin. He hoped they would
have a Committee of Inquiry appointed, and then they
should know how far Ireland was fairly taxed.
Mr. VERNON SMITH was not going to express any
opinion on the measure before the House, until he ascer-
tained what were the feelings of Hon. Members for Ireland.
He voted on a former occasion against the grant of 50,000/.,
not from any feeling of indifference to the sufferings of the
Irish people, but from a wish that the money might be ap-
plied in a better manner. He wished to know from his
Right Hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what
advances were given under the Land Improvement (Ireland )
Bill ; and whether the interest upon the sum advanced,
which was to be secured as a rent-charge on Irish prof erty,
was regularly and punctually paid ? He understood his
Right Hon. Friend now to be for giving 300,000/. for one
purpose,and 200,0001. for another; the money vote for the
Land Improvement Act, having, he supposed, been already
exhausted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
state that the funds advanced under the Land Improve-
ment Act were now exhausted. He stated that 9•0,0001.
remained of the 1,500,0001. granted ; that ' the
amount of the sums issued was 548,000 L, and that the
900,0001. was available under the Act for the next three or
four years. It was obvious that that money having been
located in another way, it could not now be given for the
increase of employment, except under the provisions of the
Land Improvement Act. The amount of application for ad-
vances under that Act was 3,974,000/. ; of which 1,544,0001.
was sanctioned by the proper authorities. Of that latter
sum 112,0001. had been given up, and 60,000/. of it again re-
appropriated; so that all which remained in hand now was
900,0001. Now, as to the interest in the shape of a rent-
charge, of which his Right Hon. Friend asked him a ques-
tion, he could state that all rent charges due on the sth of
October last were 4,9891,, of which 4,9351. were paid, leaving
a balance of but 53/. due.—( Hear, hear.) Of the sum payable
on the sth of April, 2,0001. were already paid, and more could
not be expected. With regard to measures for compelling
parties who had borrowed to pay, he certainly would advise
the most stringent measures to be taken if it should be found
necessary.
Mr. HERBERT believed the present measure would be-
nefit the country, in forwarding arterial drainage; but he
could not say it would afford that employment to the people
which was expected. He complained of the present area of
taxation, as promoting the greatest of evils. Much of the
misery in Ireland was attributable to the failure of' the poor-
law, in consequence of a want of equalisation of the elec-
toral divisions. Grants of money like the present were, in
consequence, thrown away, while this evil existed. There
were English Members in that House to whom he would
appeal under such circumstances, and say, give them a
poor-law in Ireland, similar to that now existing in Eng-
land, and they were prepared to submit to all their respon-
sibilities.
Mr. AGLIONBY should be glad to know from the Irish
Members whether there was a chance of agreeing on any
subject connected with Ireland, during the present ses-
sion ?—(A laugh. )
Sir H. BARRON—And English Members differ too.
Mr. AGLION BY—No doubt, but not on important points.
Indeed he thought the Irish Members would agree on a ques-
tion of money, and he dared to say they would yet do so,
although some of them, like the Hon. Member for Roscom-
mon, now found fault with it. He objected, however,.to one
thing—in which he not only expected opposition from the
Government, but the Irish Members. He was averse then,
to the management of the works being given to the Board
of Works, because that board was the most expensive ma-
chinery that could be got. In some cases, as had been stated
by the Hon. Member for Shropshire, they charged 32/. for
draining where it could be done for 51.; and he therefore
thought that in justice to the Irish landlords, it ought to be
taken out of their hands.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to
correct an error into which his Hon. Friend had fallen.
The money so appropriated was not expended by the Board
of Works, but by the landlords of Ireland, wader the Land
Improvement Act, inspected by an officer from the Board.
The money expended under the River Drainage Act—was
certainly by them—but it was so expended because it was
found impossible fur the landlords to do so. The Government
had been forced to undertake works which they had no wish
to do, but that arose in consequence of the works going
through the properties of a number of landlords. The fact
was, the sum of 321. alluded to by the Hon. Member, and
on a former occasion by the Hon. Membsr for Shropshire,
was under the Relief Act, and not under the Land Improve-
ment Act or the River Drainage Act at all.
Mr. AGLIONBY regretted he had taken up the time of
the House in mis-stating anything; but he would not give
the Board of Works a single farthing to expend as public
money in Ireland. In the case of Lough Corrib, evidence was
offered to be given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
their misconduct, and he declined. Au investigation, he con-
tended, was necessary.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL—Question, question.
Mr. AGLIONBY said it was the question. The question i
before the House was the proper management of money in
Ireland.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that the drainage of Lough
Corrib was brought under the notiee of the House as a pri-
vate Bill, and had nothing to do with the present question.
Mr. AGLIONBY contended that it had. Here was a com-
pany who had expended 15,000/. in wages alone, in the
drainage of Lough Corrib, until they were stopped by the
Board of Works, and when a deputation waited on the
Right lion Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
to give him informatfon on the subject, he declined seeing
them.

peerTrsehnfneu.sCedllAtAnoNatCpeepEeitLOß of the EXCHEQUER denied that
h evuetioinufowrmasamtioundeotnu
hthimis
csuerbtjaeicutiyfr,ohmutanje
questiont
swaasii‘esrilepd(vlo.aue
clone.
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e.
courton him, inasmuch
wi aasumd uch
until s t theh a t
ictoNAtvudl oGeiniuudstLtl
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Nneulallelvceßlrna
sxeensulpslahldnaestidfhounieper
supported
tthhaenmk
eedastuhree
Nand h entered Noble
Lord i
intoc rt'aisipme details relative to the distress which existed in
opposite for the measures with which he proposed t
meet it. He would suggest to the Right Honourable
Gentleman whether some scheme could not devisedbe by
which
some
must
co-operatione active
m ea at takenh could s
g bea
rtetshtedesideratum.p secured.re a e
nTt htei m et
To
employment
hlasb
souur in Ireland was
nassisthere
transition state from one system to another, which w
going on in Ireland. If Ireland was placed in a betteraa no
posi-
tion than she was now, the revenues of the country would be
greatly increased. The expenditure of money on Ireland
now would eventually increase the prosperity of the empire.
Mr. GROGAN said he gave her Majesty's Government
credit for having :at length taken the state of Ireland into
their serious consideration. Before they could carry their
measure into effect for the improvement of estates, they must
find purchasers for them. He feared that there was but little
prospect of finding purchasers for the immense quantity of
land that their measures would throw into the market. The
poor. law would be another obstacle to the improvements an-
ticipated. The difficulty of obtaining co-operation in Ire-
land would certainly be met in some degree by the Arterial
Drainage Act, but some alteration was necessary.
Mr. TRELAWNEY rose to oppose the granting of any
money from the English Exchequer for Irish purposes. Since
he had been a Member of that House, lie believed so much
as ten millions had been voted for Ireland. Now, under
these circumstances, one of two things, it was clear, must
happen—either that the soil of Ireland must be brought up.
to a point to enable it to support the population, or the popu-
lation must be lessened, so as to proportion it to the means of
the productive power of the soil. If he had any hope that
this was the last grant, it would be different; but he found,
according to the accounts in the newspapers of the contiaued
distress, notwithstanding he had heard of the recovery of the
potato, that there was no such prospect. The drai upon
this country for the relief of Ireland had had the effect of
creating dissatisfaction with the measures of free trade, be-
cause free trade was blamed for producing that distress which
was caused by the advances for Ireland. However unplea-
sant it might be for him to do so, he really must oppose the
proposed grant.
Mr. AUGUSTUS STAFFORD said the Hon. Member
had mainly limited his objection to the fact that granting
mosey to Ireland had been the cause of raising an outcry
against free trade, because poople, he said, attributed the
distress to free-trade measures, when in reality the Honour-
able Member affirmed that the distress was caused by the
advances made to Ireland. Where the Hon. Member had
received his information of the recovery of the potato, as he
called it, he (Mr. A. Stafford) was at a loss to understand.—
(Hear, hear.) One thing he thought obvious was this, that
there was some danger in making Ireland so largely a debtor.
The amount which Ireland already owed, and which she
would further owe when this proposed grant was passed, and
when the contemplated advances were made to Irish rail-
ways, would soon make it become a question, how far they
had acted wisely in making one portion of the empire so
large a debtor to the other portion.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been stated, upon good authority, that until the area
of taxation was narrowed, no man's liability in that country
could be known. He would also observe, that when the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
complained of the long debates caused by Irish Members
preventing the passing of measures of relief, he (Mr.
i Staf-
ford) would remind the Right Hon. Gentleman, that t was
only by these protracted debates that Government was com-
pelled at length to come forward with beneficial measures.
Sir H. W. BARRON begged leave to remark, that when
observations were made about the speeches of Irish Members,
he would just remark, that of the ten gentlemen who had
addressed the House on the present question, seven of them
were English Members. When Hon. Members talked so
largely as they did about the advances made for Irish relief,
he would call their attention to what had recently been ad-
vanced for improvements in England. It appeared, according
ing to a return which had been made only ten days ago, that
there had been a sum granted by that House, amounting to
Gentlemen, therefore, thought proper to express themselves
eight millions, for English purposes.—(Hear.) When Hon.
as they did about their miserable advance to Ireland,. he
would request of them not to be so forgetful of the eight
millions which had been advanced to England.—(Hear.)
When people talked about the potato famine being over, he
would simply ask them before they ventured to make such
statements, to snake themselves a little acquainted with
facts.—(Hear, hear.) He had received a letter from Mr.
Villiers Stuart, a gentleman who was well known to some
Members of that House, and who was chairman of a
union in Carrick-on-Suir, who stated that such was the
extent of the distress, that so many as 199 people
had been admitted into the workhouse in one day.—
( Hear, hear.) He was also enabled to state that in a
union in Tipperary there were not fewer than 579 able-
bodied labourers at present in the workhouse. He con-
tended. therefore, that this was a kind of grant which had
been extended to England and Scotland before on precisely
similar grounds; and he would suggest to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that the Board of Works should not make a
greater advance than 1,0001. to any one person. Another
suggestion which he would also offer was, that, considering
the great number of able-bodied paupers at present in the
workhouses, and the little employment that could be found
for them, it would be desirable to bind the parties borrowing
the money to spend it within twelve months ; because, if the
money were to be retained wholly or in part, for one, two, or
throe PM/ it 1T91114 not tumor the purpose they C9Ateth,