The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-28 00:00:00

REVENUE OF IRELAND.

Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the report of the Commis-
sioners for inquiring into the expenses of collecting the Revenue
in Ireland.

Mr. WALLACE brought up the Report of the Committee
for examining the State of the Irish Revenue, and the manage-
ment and application thereof. The Right. Hon. Member ob-
served, that the Committee had hoped they should have been
able to state the result of their investigation; but they had not
at present the materials for doing so with satisfaction either to
the House or to themselves. The present Report was there-
fore a mere preliminary measure ; but the Committee trusted
they would, at no distant period, be enabled to give an ampler
account of the manner in which they had performed the duties
entrusted to them by Parliament. The House was aware that
the Act of Parliament, under which the COmmittee were 'ap-
pointed, directed them: to give their attention principally to
the mode of collecting and disposing .of the Irish revenue.—
The Committee, at the commencement of their inquiries,
were much surprised at the great difference in the expence
of collecting the revenue of Ireland with that of the same
object in England ; a circumstance attributable in a ,_.'reat mea-
sure to the different situations of the two countries. But what-
ever defects might exist, or whatever abuses might prevail in
the management of the Irish., Revenue, he was bound to say
that the most able and intelligent servants of the Government in
that country had shown every disposition to facilitate inquiry.
The Commission had begun by examining the highest autho-
rities, and had proceeded but a very little way in their inquiry,
when they noticed the great disproportion in the duties affect-
ing Irish commerce ; especially in 'those generally called
the Countervailing Duties. By the Sixth Article of the Union,
the principle of. a free trade had been established ; and it had
become a question whether those duties could .be continued
without the sanction of an Act of Parliament. The object in
removing them would be to relieve Ireland'from the duty of 10
per cent. upon the consumption of an article in very general
use. He should, however, forbear entering generally into the
question, as the Committee would do so more satisfactorily :in
their next Report. He should, therefore content himself with
moving that the Report do lie upon the table, first hearing testi-
mony to the valuable assistance which the Committee had de-
rived from the exertions of, his . Hon. Friend : (Mr. F. Lewis)
who had been principally, instrumental in originating the pre-
sent inquiry. .
Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his satisfaction at the progress
which had been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman and his
Colleagues. He always thought that the Act continuing the
Duties in question had. been
.passed too hastily, and that they
might have been abolished without disadvantage to either coun-

try. But whatever might be his opinion he should not antici-
pate the decision of the'Committee by offering any further ob-
servations upon the subject.
The Report was then ordered to lie on the table and be
printed.
MR. HUNT.

Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from 1500 Inhabitants
of Greenock in favour of Mr. Henry Hunt. The Petitioners,
the Hon. Member said, considered the punishment which had
been inflicted upon that Gentleman as levelled at the man arid
not at the offence ; and when they found that this sentence had
been aggravated by the rules of the Magistrates of the county
jail in which he .was confined, they could not forbear express-
ing to the House their opinion on the subject. Sir Charles
Bampfylde, the late Sheriff of Somersetshire, had considered
the regulations in question as so harsh, with .respect to Mr.
Hunt, that he had suspended them '; but on his going out of
office they were renewed. It might be a very proper question
to ask, why those regulations had been renewed,- and why Mr.
Hunt had been exposed to unnecessary severity ; why he
should be condemned to pass two years and a half of his life
in a pestilential jail, and supplied with water tainted with the
most loathsome impurity.—(tear, hear !)—This severity was
exercised too after he had exposed the atrocities and .crimes
committed in that jail, and had afforded Government an
opportunity of punishing them. He really thought that if
Ministers had either generosity or justice they would grant
Mr. Hunt an unconditional release ; or, at least, remove
him to a prison in which his sufferings would be somewhat mi-
tigated.
Mr. WARRE said, he understood that Mr. Hunt had been
placed on a level with the felons of the jail. No person was
allowed to see him but in the common room ; and Mr. Hunt
had refused to go there, because he was there exposed to in-
sult. The only persons allowed admission to him, except in
this room, were an Attorney, a Surgeon, and a Physicians.
He (Mr. W.) really wished that a distinction were drawn be-
tween the criminals and those who were confined for political
offences. The jail of Ilchester, he believed, stood upon the
bank of a river; and there was .a small aperture in the wall of
Mr. Hunt's cell, a little elevated above the surface of the water.
It was here that his son, by taking a boat on the river, was
enabled to communicate with his father through the aperture ;
and thus only could he obtain that communication. He (Mr.
%v.) wished that this were otherwise. It was always a mis-
fortune to a Government, if a person confined for a political
offence should come from his prison hailed by the people
as a martyr ; and it was always better for public opinion to
go along with the sentences of our Courts of Justice.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—On referring to the Act of Parliament, which
had been quoted the other night as the authority for prison
rules, he really could not say to what extent the powers given
by that Act of Parliament might not be pushed. He re-
peated his opinion, that a distinction should always be drawn
Ibetween political offences and those generally admitted to be
criminal. .

Mr. DICKINSON said, he had already stated that, when
he saw the rules in question, he thought they pressed too se-
verely upon Mr. Hunt, and had mentioned the eircamstance
to Mr. Justice Best, who, however, returned the rules with-
out any alteration. He (Mr. D.) feared, that as they were now
signed by the Judges, they became a part of the law of the
prison, aud.could not be altered. Upon this subject, which had
undergone so much discusSion, he had to express his acknow-
leilp,ments to a worthy Alderman (Mr. Wood) for a, courtesy
which was to be contrasted `with the conduct of the Honourable
Member for Aberdeen. That Hon. ' Member had the other
evenin 7, without having apprised him (Mr. D.) of his inten-
tion to 'bring the subject forward, presented a Petition relative
to Mr. Hunt, and had taken that opportunity of speaking of the
Magistrates of Somersetshire, as if they were the most unfeel-
ing of men. He (Mr. D.) did not behave in this manner when
he had a petition to present personally affecting the Honour-
able Member himself, but had spoken to him on the subject;
though he believed, in doing so, he had only observed that
courtesy which was considered as due from one Member to
another.

Mr. HUME said he was not aware of any rule of the House,
by which a Member was enjoined to refrain from bringing for-
ward any local matter until the two county Members were pre-
sent. It was their business to attend in their places. On the
occasion alluded to, the other Hon. Member for Somerset (Sir
T. Lethbridge) was present ; and if lie (Mr. H.) always waited.
on such occasions for the presence of both the County Mem-
bers, he would have to wait long enough. Ue would repeat that
in his conscience he believed the conduct of the Somersetshire
Magistrates to have been unequalled. The other evening the
Hon. Baronet had taken upon himself to say, that according
to the information he had received, Mr. Hunt was not in soli-
tary confinement. He (Mr. H.) held in his hand an affidavit
of a surgeon and of Mr. Hunt's son that no one was allowed
to see him. A letter had been sent by the Sheriff of the County
to Mr. Hunt, stating that he believed the Court had not in-
tended to inflict solitary imprisonment upon him ; and regret-
ting that as the rules of the prison had been signed by the
Judges, he had not the power to relieve him. It had been
said that the Magistrates were no to blame. He wished any
one who said or thought this, would read the Report of the
' Committee appointed to examine the state of this jail.—
The Committee stated the dungeon in which Mr. Hunt was
confined to be dark, damp, and unventilated. If the
trates were not to blame, who were to blame ? Not only Mr.
Hunt, but other persons confined in the prison had been refused
permission to obtain pure water from the river, and were com-
pelled to use water actually filtered through the common
sewers of the jail. In every page of the Report the grossest
neglect on the part of the Magistrates was evident. He ad-
mitted the general advantages of an unpaid Magistracy, like
that of England, but this was not to exclude inquiry into
abuse, for that were to give up ,the very advantage of which
we boasted. He should state but a very few words respecting
the petition which the Honourable Member had mentioned
as personally affecting himself (Mr. H.) That Petition was
from an individual who had assisted him with some informa-
tion, and then demanded 251. of him as a remuneration for
his trouble. The man knew very well, for lie (Mr. H.) had
told him before hand that he made it a rule never to pay in
any shape for information. No one would question the pru-
dence of this his rule ; for if lie encouraged persons to give him
information, what taunts would he not have to suffer (and
justly suffer) from the other side of the House ?—(Hear, hear !)
—He trusted the Hon: Baronet would offer some explanation
of the statement he had made the other evening respecting the
confinement of Mr. Hunt.

Mr. T. LETIIBRfIidE certainly considered that the Mem.-
ber for Aberdeen had shewed a want of courtesy the other night
in not having communicated to the County Member of Somer-
set his intention to bring forward a charge against -the Magis-
trates of the county. In answer to the call made upon him by
the Hon. Member, he had only to remind the House, that the
other evening he hadi spoken from information, and upon that
he had said he did not believe Mr. Hunt was placed in solitary
confinement. .He. did not believe it even now. He had al-
ways understood solitary confinement to mean an exclusion
from all communication with other persons. If certain indi-
viduals were excluded by the express rules of the prison, he
did not consider that a solitary confinement. He believed that
Mr. Hunt had received many indulgences to which he was
not entitled. He was sorry for the sake of every one concern-
ed that Mr. Hunt had been sent to Ilchester. 31r. H. when
he found himself sentenced to imprisonment should have been
content with the same treatment as that which was borne by
other prisoners. He (Sir Thomas) did not believe that in the
present instance any case of necessity had been made out—if
there had, he would have been the first to reprobate it. He
had read the Report of the Committee alluded to by the Hon.
Member, and had read it with much pain. He was sorry to
observe the statements made in that Report; and he had only
to say, that if punishment had,been deserved by any persons in
Somersetshire, connected with the subject in discussion, he
trusted they would be punished most severely. The Report
in question had certainly exposed, practices which, he trusted he
might say, were as repugnant to his feelings as they could be to
those of any Member in the House. Before he sat down he
could not but say lie thought the Committee had been very
properly appointed, and had done Much good.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, it appeared the Honourable
Baronet attributed no fault upon the present subject to any in-
dividual. Now he (Mr. Taylor), was not known to many per-
sons in Somersetshire ; but he would say in his place as a Mem-
ber of Parliament, and he cared not who was offended by the
observation, that the Magistrates of the county were in fault.—
(Hear, hear !)—They ought to have waited for no Committee
to point out their duty. They, as acting Magistrates, should
have taken care that water and every other comfort, not incon-
sistent with punishment, should have been supplied to the pri-
soners. lleagreed in every word which had been uttered by
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen ; and he trusted the Right
lion. Secretary for the Home Department, who had distin-
guished himself for his humanity in Ireland, would convince
the .31agistrates of Somersetshire that there was a power which
could anti would notice this subject.
Mr. BENNETT said, the Honourable Baronet had caught
hold of the phrase " solitary confinement." The Honourable
Baronet appeared to think that nothing was • solitary confine-
ment but four walls and thereceiving of food through a wicket.
That, however, was but a degree of solitary confinement: and
if a man were told he must submit to insult, or remain within
his cell, it was not too much to call that also a degree of
solitary confinement. He ventured to say that, except in 11-
chester, there was no prison in England in which a man confined
for a political offence was compelled to associate with felons,
or submit to solitary confinement. This, however, had been
accomplished at llchester by the regulations of these Magis-
trates, confirmed by the order of Mr. Justice Best. lie wished
for the production of these, regulations, in order that it might
be seen whether he was borne out in his opinion that they ware
the most arbitrary and cruel that could ever be devised by the

most arbitrary Magistrate, or the most arbitrary Judge. The'
fact was, that no written rule of the prison had been acted upon
until the other day. Under all the circumstances, he thought
it was the duty of the House to address the Crown to remove
these Magistrates ftorn. office. They had neglected their
duty, and he sttonglksuspected they had done so criminally.
There was a case ,referred 'to by the Report, in which it
appeared that a-poor girl, with her infant in her arms, had
been• confined in a season of severe frost and snow, within
a cell in which for two days she' was allowed no fire. Her
food was nothing but bread, and cold water from a bucket—
her milk failed in consequence, and the health of the infant at
her breast suffered in consequence. He knew that all com-
ment upon these facts was unnecessary ; he knew that they
must strike every feeling man with horror ; yet this he con.
tended had been caused by the negligence of the Magistrates.—
It was them that he blamed, and not their, miserable tool the
jailor,_ or his underling ; and if be had the power to dismiss
them They never should discharge another magisterial office as
long as they lived.
Mr. Alderman WOOD, alluding to the observation of the
Hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. Dickinson), said it was a
mistake to suppose that the Magistrates had no power to soften
the rigour of the rules as they applied to Mr. Hunt. Some of
them were the same as the rules adopted for the regulation of
Newgate ; and they applied to the admission of persons within
the walls of the prison to see the prisoner. The Magistrates
had the poker of taking him out of the walls without endanger-
ing his safe custody. This relaxation of the rule had been ob-
served at Newgate in several instances where respectable per-
sons had been ordered to be confined there. He could mention
the case of a Noble Marquis and that of a Noble Lord. The
rules in question, as they affected Mr. Hunt, had been most
capriciously altered by the Magistrates, although no charge
had ever been made against Mr. Hunt; and it was worthy of
remark, that until Mr. Hunt had brought forward his own
charges, he had not been exposed to his present additional suf-
fering.
Mr. DICKINSON explained. The Magistrates he repeated
had no power to alter the rules. The Hon. Member for Dur-
ham (Mr. M. A. Taylor) appeared to think nothing whatever
had been done by the Magistrates; but the fact was, that on
their first bearing of the abuses of the jail they set on foot an
inquiry, and turned away the jailer and the surgeon who were
complained of, and whose conduct appeared to have justified the
complaints.'
Mr. LENNARD said the Magistrates had done nothing until
the abuses in question had been brought under the notice of
Parliament. He fully agreed with the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury (Mr. Bennett) that great suspicion attached to the
conduct of the Magistrates for Somerset, and that it would be-
come them to endeavour to disprove the charge against them.—
He could not vouch for the fact; but it had been published and
not contradicted that one of the Magistrates, on occasion of
the late inquiry, had been heard to say " We must defend our
gaoler." Yet this gaoler was a wretch discharged from the
hulks, a defrauder of the miserable objects placed within his
power, and one altogether as infamous in character as he was
brutal in conduct.

The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table,
and be-printed. -
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved, that the evidence annexed
to the Report of the Committee for inquiring into the state of
the Ilchester Jail should be printed.
Mr. PEEL said, he thought it was desirable that the evi-
dence to which reference was continually made by the Report,
should be in the hands of Members, and he therefore did not
object to the motion. The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. Alderman WOOD wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Gentleman had any objection to the printing of the evi-
dence taken before the Coroner on the 19th and 20th of Jan.
last, in the Jail of Ilchester ? _ _ _

Mr. PEEL said, there might be a criminal proceeding issu-
ing out of this evidence, which would come on for trial at the
ensuing Assizes, and he was anxious that the question should
not be prejudged. lie, however, should not oppose the motion.
Mr. Alderman Woon and Mr. PEEL mutually explained,
and the motion was then agreed to.
THE PENSION ACT.

Mr. CREEVEY, pursuant to notice, rose to call the atten-
tion of the House to an Act of Parliament which had passed in
the year 1817, called "An Act to enable his Majesty to remunerate
the services of those who have held high and eilicient situations."
It was an Act little understood by the Members of that House,
and as little by the people of this country, to whom it was so
grossly insulting. He was not in England at the time of the
passing of this measure, which he understood had only lately
been brought into action. The title of the Bill itself "was not
correct, for the King had nothing to do with it. The. zeal ob-
ject of the Bill was to embody the traders in politics into a cor-
poration ; and he would proceed to state how the prof-I& were
divided.—(A laugh.)—The joint stock of the company consisted
of 42,0001. per annum, and according to the Charter it was di-
vided into four classes. The first class consisted of the First
Lord of the Treasury, the three principal Secretaries of State,
and some others, and these were to have pensions for life of 30001.
a-year each, provided they remained two years in the Corporation.
And here it was to be observed that it was no matter -,vhethertheir
two years' service was performed at once, or offand on in jobs.—
(A laugh !)—lf the work were made up some how or other, the
servant was entitled to his pension. Now one would think that
this was enough in all conscience ; but it seemed that all those
' of the first class were to be entitled to 10001. a year for life, even
though they did not perform the two years' service. The framers
of the Bill seemed to have relented, to have thought they were
too hard at first, and therefore two minutes' service would entitle
the person in question to his 10001. a year. In fact, he might
kiss hands for the, place and the pension at the same time. Tnis
principle of the minor pension—the " one ever" ran through the
whole of the bill. The second class of pensions was for another
set ofnfficers, who had served five years, and was to be 20001. a
year per man. The third was for a like service at the rate
of 15001. a year per man and the fourth was for a service
of ten years, and was at the rate of 10001. a year per man.
Up to the year 1817 the King had the privilege of discovering
merit in his servants and of rewarding it ; and if he were
crippled in his pecuniary means of rewarding it, he applied
to the House . for assistance. These old-fashioned practices
had now been done away with, and neither the King nor the
House would have any further trouble, for merit was regu-
lated by Act of Parliament, and vested in certain official sta-
tions.—(A laugh.)—Honourable Members might laugh, for
some of them had very good reason. To be sure, the King's
Sign Manual was necessary for the granting of these pensions,
but the applicant for the pension was the constitutional Ad-
viser of the King ; the King himself was bound by the Charter.
It really would have been more manly in the Corporation to
have put their own seal to it and saved his Majesty the
trouble of being; Secretary to his own servants. The
Bill had been introduced by three Honourable Members
whom he might name, as he took their names from the
Journals. They were Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Bankes,
and Viscount Castlereagh—(A laugh, and hear, hear, hear !)
—The Bill itself had been recommended by the Finance Com-
mittee : and it was worth while to observe what that Commit-
tee, on being formed, had been directed to do. They were
directed " to inquire into the public expenditure, and to state
the best measures to be adopted for relieving the country from
some of its burthens."—(Cheers and laughter.)—To a superfi-
cial observer the present Bill might certainly appear a comical
way of relieving the country. Three or four of the Committee
were themselves to be benefited by this Bill. The Corporation
say—" That it is necessary, and is consistent with policy and
economy to devise this measure." He would try them upon
thini own title. The first Act of Parliament given in ex-
change for the Pension Bill was an Act to regulate certain,
offices in the Exchequer. This Act directed the abolition
of some, and the regulation of others, after the expiration of
the " existing interests," that is to say, not a hair of the
head of the sinecurist was to be touched, and the public were
to be touched. ,The Act went on to state that these office,
should, ht the, expiration of those interests, never be performed
by deputy. The patronage was to be transferred to the Trea-
sury, and the fees (if any) were to be paid to the Consolidated
Fund. Honourable Members knew very well what was meant
by the words " if any." There would be of course none at
all.—(A laugh !)—This was a part of the benefit we received
in exchange for the 42,0001. a year. The second Act was for
the abolition of the offices of Warden and Chief Justice in Eyre
north of Trent and south of Trent. After the expiration of
" existing interests," the duties of these offices were to be per-
formed by the Clerk of Woods and Forests. Now, if their
Clerk could perform these duties, what became of the boasted
efficiency of the public servants ?—(Hear, hear !)—The third
Act was for the abolition of some offices, and the regulation
of others in Ireland ; and this 42,0001. a year was, he sup.posed,
granted upon the principle of compensation ; a principle so
utterly untenable that, if this measure were to be considered
the work of any other person than Members, he would call
this Bill obtaining money . under false pretences ; a species of
Parliamentary swindling. In these offices, the thing was, as
usual, a mere transfer of patronage to the Treasury, and to the
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. The Crown was robbed, and we
were to pay 42,0001. a year for the robbery. The next act related
to certain offices in Scotland, and declared that the Keeper of
the Great Seal should not be paid more than 2,0001. a year ;
another of the privileges for which we were to pay 42,0001. a
year.—(Hear, bear !)—lt was fit that the public should know
what they had for their money.--(A laugh.)—The Act went on
to declare, that the duties of these Scotch offices should be
performed in person.—What a calamity !—(A laugh.)---And
that the salary of each should not exceed 1,0001. a year—what
a hardship !—(Laughter.)—The next Act related to the Board
of Trade, which had been professedly abolished before, but
which was now revived by an Act of Parliament, beginning
thus :—" An Act to amend, &c."—(A laugh.)—And it pro-
vided that the duties of the office of Comptroller should be

performed in person. The Scotch Mint was also sold up. The
Mint of, Scotland sold! Here was another bargain for the coun-
try ! No wonder to be sure that we paid 42,0001. a year for it.—
(A laugh.)—The last Act was for regulating the Exchequer in
England and Ireland, and for providing " a more economical.
Execution of the Duties of the several Offices belonging there-
to." The duties were again to be performed in person only;
but the appointment of Officers was vested in the Treaz;ury, so
that, as he had before observed, it was merely a transfer of
patronage. This was the amount of the benefits for which in
return we were to pay 42,0001. a year. He would ask, was any
thing equal to this ; and were Ministers to be allowed to entrench
themselves by Bill after Bill against all encroachments ?
(Hear, hear !)—But he thought this same Committee of Finance
had been making a little free with the statute of Anne, which
declared that a Member of that House should vacate his seat
by accepting a pension from the Crown. The accepting of a
pension under this Bill would not he thought vacate a Mem-
ber's seat ; and if he was right, this Bill was in that respect a
repeal of the statute of Anne. Mr Yorke, who some years
agg vacated his seat under the Act of Anne, by taking a pen-
sion, and who lost his election afterwards, must surely regret
that he had not lived under the reign of the Hon. Member for
Corfe Castle.—(A laugh.)—ln that case he would not have va-
cated his seat, and could not have lost his subsequent election.—
But the new dynasty 'tad not then taken place. Nothing,. he
( Mr. C.) thought was so dangerous to the country as a Fi-
nance Committee ; for they did that which Ministers would not
do themselves. He was quite sure, for instance, that the
Noble Marquis would never have come down to that House
with a message from the Crown stating, " that his Majesty
was most desirous to see a retrenchment in the public expendi-
ture; but he hoped the House would not forget high and effi-
cient public men just to give them a little corner in the Bill."
—(Laughter.)—Had the Noble Marquis done this, he never
could have shone again. No. It was the Finance Committee
that had done the present thing.—(A laugh.)—These pen.-
sions, however, were now given away without consulting
the King. They originated with the Ministers, were given
away amongst themselves, and altogether in a manner in-
sulting to his -Majesty. Thus the country might say with
safety, that the Ministers formed a corporation of themselves,
when the regular course of the Monarchy was departed from.
Before the time of the Bill, the regular way of granting pen-
sions was by a communication from the Crown to that House.
In 1782, when the Act which was called the Civil List Act
was passed, it was preceded by a message from the Throne,
stating that it was bis Majesty's wish that certain debts which
were to be liquidated should be provided for, if possible
without laying any new burdens on the people. How much
more gracious his Majesty was than his Ministers.—(A laugh.)
—When they had to state the existence of debt, and to call- for
means of providing for its payment, there was nothing of re..
gret in the communication, which was barely confined to the
fact of so much money being wanted. This act was for the
purpose of diminishing certain pensions, and abolishing places,
and then, 40 years afterwards, when they had 600,000,0001. more
of debt, they had a new Act for establishing more places and
pensions. By this new Act the Gentlemen over the way had
the power of disposing of 42,0001. in pensions to whom they
pleased. There was another Act for the regulation of the
Auditors of the Exchequer, and the Tellers, but three of
these places, as they still remained, were worth more than all
the reductions of the Finance Committee put together. But
he might be told these were patent places, granted in lieu of
compensation for services. He recognised the principle of
bestowing compensation upon Clerks, but he never could at:-
knowledge the justice of a plan of compensation for public men.
And to come at this time of day, in the face of the recommenda-
tion of the Finance Committee to abolish sinecure places, was
a most abominable outrage. He (Mr. Creevey) wished to see
the power of rewarding the servants of the Crown in the hands
of the Throne, which was the constitutional and safer way.
Ever since 1791, they had been nibbling at this power, till at
length Ministers had got it safe in their own keeping, and he
feared they would retain it until that House was reformed.--
When that happened, he was sure this odious Bill, so calculated
to degrade public men, would be among the first repealed.
He was for the power going back to the Monarchy without the
interference of the new dynasty. For that purpose he would
very shortly move to repeal the Act, though he did not mean
to ask that in the first instance. His present object was to let
the House into a knowledge of the nature of the Act, not to
take them by surprise ; and in order the more amply to en-
lighten them with respect to the nature of it, he should move
for information as to the application of the power of granting
pensions under this Bill, and of the amount of the money
saved by the Abolition and Regulation Act alluded to. He
wished that the House might see whether the public had picked
up a few pounds or not of this transposstion. The Honourable
Member then submitted two Resolutions to the following effect
First, " That there be laid before the House an account of all
the profits which have accrued to the public from the abolition
of offices, or the regulation of salaries, by virtue of the different
Acts of the 67th of his late Majesty, cap. 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 67,
and 84, specifying how much in the respective offices." Second,
" That there be laid before this House an account of all the
warrants granting pensions that have been signed by his MY
jesty in pursuance of those Acts."

Mr. B-ANKES began by observing, that after the laboured
invectives (Cheers) which the Hon. Gentleman had bestow-
cd on the Act of the 57th of his late after hearing
. . Majesty;
the principle of it stigmatized by him as a most abominable
outrage. (Hear.) the House would, perhaps, be surprized I°,
hear, what it appeared the 'Honourable Gentleman himselr
had forgotten, viz. that the principle of the Bill he and other.
Hon. Members who sat near him had assented to, and stir
ported as much as the Chairman of the Committee or the
Noble Lord who introduced it.—(Cheers.)—That he might
convince the House of the truth of his assertions as be went
on, he would take the liberty of reading the Resolution
which the House had conic to on the 31st May, 1810. De"
bates had taken place upon several resolutions emanating
from the report which arcse out of the substaiice of the re"
solutions of the Committee of which he (Mr. Bankes) had
been Chairman its 1808. One set of resolutions bid been
proposed by Mr. Henry Martin, another by Mr. Percival'
another set by himself, and also one by the Hon. Baronet
who was Member for Waterford (Sir J. Newport). On the
day to which he referred, a division had already taken place,
and the resolution was, " That the House do agree to the
resolution of the Committee so amended." The resort'
tion of the Committee was, " That for this purpose, in
addition to the useful and effective means which Parli3-
ment has taken for the abolition of sinecure offic..!s, it's
expedient, after providing for other reductions, that sat'
cient means be given to his Majesty to -recompenee civil
-
officers, in order that he may be enabled to abolish all offices
without employment, and assign proportionate pensions, re-
gard being had to the existing interests in the offices so to be
abolished or regulated."—(Hear, hear !)—Now the Hun'
Member (Mr. Creevey) said he was absent when the Act 0,
the 57th of Geo. 111. alluded to, was passed. They might re-
gret that they;had not the advantage of his valuable assist-
ance; but on the present occasion lie could not plead the
same absence, as regarded the Resolution on which the Bill
was founded ; for it so happened that on that very day, in the
division on the previous-debate, the Tellers entered upon the
Journals were, Mr. Creevey—(Hear, hear !)—and Lord Vis"
count Milton. He wished that Noble Lord were then pre'
sent, that be might say a word to him on the subject of his
consistency of opinion with regard to this Bill. He would
leave that part of the question, however, to proceed to one
of infinitely more importance, viz, whether any thing had oc;
curred since the passing of this Bill to authorise its abolition •
There were some parts of the Bill in which he (Mr. Bankes)
did not altogether concur at the time it was brought in, al-
though lie entirely agreed with its principle. Mr. Burke
Bill went to abolish a considerable number of places enume'
rated in the preamble, which depended on the King's plea'
sure. But that Bill left untouched the great offices of the
Exchequer. With regard to these,. the 22d Report of the
Finance Committee, under the head of Sinecures, observe°,
that " there were many Sinecure Establishments which might
be usefully employed in rewarding great personal services, so
as to secure an honourable retreat to persons who have re-
ceived marhs of public favour, and who havesacrifieed their time
to the public service, which they might have devoted to sours,
lucrative profession." This was the reason why Mr. Burke left
those offices untouched, on the ground that it was the policy:
of every State to possess the means of rewarding services or
this description. A resolution declaring that in the absence
of sinecure places some other means slo,uld be placed at the
disposal of the clown, to reward its servants with, was sub'
sequently passed ; and upon that be (Mr. Bankes) had 104
excited himself to bring in a Bill, which bad finally passed in
1817. In the years 1812 and 1813, he endeavoured to per.;
suade the House to it, and he would venture to say, that
the Hun. Member for Appleby (Mr. Creevey) and the HO'
Member for Shrewsbury, (Mr. G. Bennett) were then in the
House, they voted with him on those occasions. At all events
they supported the Resolution of 1810. He (Mr. Banlies,)•
had heard various opinions expressed as to the propriety t
supporting measures, or men in that House. He (:‘l!,.
Bankes) looked to measures, and not to men, and he di-
think that it was a specimen of outrageous adherence to well'
when an Hon. Gentleman having supported a Bill in 18!•,;
specifically the same in principle as that of 1817, because
was opposed by his Majesty's Ministers, should now tut('
round and exclaim against it as an abominable outrage.'
(Hear, hear !)—That Hon. Gentleman was pleased to repre-
sent the operation of this Bill as causing the nation to pay
42,0001. annually—an assertion which he used as• a sort.°
something to fill up every place in his speech which wanted
cheer. He perhaps wished it to be propagated amongst the
people of England—to be harangued at every public meeting►
that the nation now paid 42,0001. a year in pensions, and ,
supposed he (Mr. Bankes) would he held out as the promote

). The
ie coun-
For it.—
!quer in
nom ical
g there-
only ;
;ury, so
nst'er of
thich in
was any
!ntrench
ents ?
Finance
, which
pis seat
ng of a

II

espect a
le years
a pen-
t regret
fiber for
Lave va-

ling,- he
is a Fi-
)uld not
hat the
House
Majesty
xpendi-
Ind effi-

e Bill."
e never
nmittee
Fe Ling
'e 'e given
ner
in-
>ay with
nselves,
d from.

abou red
bet:t ow-

E

of that profusion. But a short time ago the Act was in no
okeration, and did not draw a shilling from the nation.—
("ear!)—.'rite Hon. Gentleman alio represented that that
• amount was the exclusive property of a Corporation of
Ntatesmen as though any one could put his hand in
and take out what he pleased, like an Insurance Com-
pany, and that the King had no vote in the distribu-
tion of it all. Such a statement was really of a nature not
°nly too low to impose upon any one iu,that House, but even
for public meetings. In what could it differ from being dis-
tributed by the Crown ? Could it differ from being distributed
nY the Crown, since every sinecure pension was, and must be,
signed by the Crown ? It was sufficient to refute itself, and
lie would therefore leave it to be so refuted by its own pre-
Posterous absurdity. The public had actually saved consi-
derably, so far front having been burdened with any thing
„additional by the abolition of places. When the Honourable
Member for Appleby raised an outcry against the right of
granting these pensions, it would he but fair to consider
'tallier when they prevailed on the Crown to pass the Bill
Ifs questioo, it gave up ally thing in lieu of it. His friends, if
ie had any, could not vote for the repeal of that Bill without
admitting that they were either in error, inconsistent, or fac-
li"us when they voted for
.it before. The House would
never, on such grounds as the Honourable Member had given
") support his motion, consent to withdraw front the Crown
that which they had given as an equivalent for valuable
rights which the Crown had given up. If they took away this
"'et, as honest men, they must return to the Crown the pos-
session of the sinecure offices. He (Mr. Bankes) had contri—
"led his humble share towards persuading the House
r'ainst the wishes of Mr. Perceval and his Noble Friend, to
deprive the Crown of their valuable privileges, and he would
not consent to re-invest the Crown with them, at the same
tineeli (I it .—(Hear.)
hat he was sure no Minister would venture to recom-
Hear.)
Mr. BENNETT observed, that his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber fur Corfe-Castle (Mr. Bankes), seemed to be extremely
sure at the rough handling which the Bill of his creation had
Inet with. He defended it with the zeal of a parent for its
t:ffipring; hut a more deformed thing, which deserved to
,rave been strangled at its birth, never was left to wander
;4°lo the world. The Hon. Member, lo)wever, was great-
'Y Mistaken in making him (Mr. Bennett) a party to his Re-
solution of 1810, as lie was not then in the House. But, if
he had been, it did not follow that he should have agreed to
N,ince, in nine questions out of ten, he disagreed with that
, on. Gentleman. It was very probable, however, that he
'ad voted fur the Bills, and he bad no doubt that if he was
again shewn a plan for abolishing sinecure offices, he should
oin support it, even though he did not concur entirely in
°Pinion with those who projected it. But against some part
of the Bill of 1817 he had protested at the time. There were
Plenty of Reports of Committees on those subjects, which
passed for so many idle words, for all the notice that was
taken of them. No one had been oftener Chairman of Com-
nsittees than the Honourable Member (Mr. Bankes)—no
"e talked more about economy, was more ample in his
P/Ntuises, but backward in the performance of them.—
I
e supported the Gentlemen opposite in all their ex-
'raragant and wasteful expenditure, but he nibbled at
Fence. He vigorously attacked the cheese-parings, but
eft the cheese whole and untouched. No one had
economymctoneoymy on his lips, with extravagance its his
'"'t•—(Laughter and cheers.)—Of the enormous sums 'of
consumed by these sinecures, he would give a
"riking illustration in one family. He alluded to the Gren-
tille family, whose moderation was well known to all. First,
there was Lord Grenville, Auditor of the Exchequer, for
s„hich. since 1795, he had received 4,0001. a year, making
'',oool. to him alone. Then Thomas Grenville, since 1800,
4t i 20001. a year, making 44,0001. The late Marquis of Buck-
4g,harn, who was appointed to a Tellership in 1763, and held
",` ,or fifty-six
ld years at 10,0001. annually, no less of the public
Is
tie
had goe tha 560,000. Lord Braatybrook, who had
e a similar appoin ntment since 1762, 20001. a year,
• .1,,0,0001., amounting ill the whole for one family to 872,0001.
'ise Crown possessed too much patronage already, and its in.
Mience extended to every place, hoverer low. But yet the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) was stickling for not depriving
the Crown of its power, or stripping it of what he called its
rights. Would the Crown believe, that whilst the Hon. Gen-
llentan was talking in that way, the Crown was annually dis-1
Posing of 464,0001. in pensions ? The right of doing this was
iut'ested in the Crown for the benefit of the nation, and could
the right of disposing of 42,0001. annually in perpetuity, be '1
30 arced, when employed solely for the purpose of ministerial •
iobbin to obtain votes an in the lowest species of political
g
aseness ? When the, Parld iament invested the power in the
Crown, it was on the essuruption that it would not be abused.
He had much rather, however, have the old abuse of sine-
cure places, than the new reform in place of it. There was
not one of those opposite but the Right Hon. Secretary for
ti!me Rome. Department (Mr. Peel), who had not served his
long enough to have a claim to 0 pension. It was too
•oycciaterhs:
,tie
at after some service of two, five, six, or eight
were to be entitled to saddle themselves on the
ii„"untrY fory the whole period Of their natural lives. The
Member for Corfe Castle had scorned and sneered at
r Public Meetings. He (Mr. Bennett) would like to see
at one of thein—(a latigh)—he had no doubt he would
5,5 duly appreciated, and rewarded by a jury of public meet-
,4lgs. If he would only submit his conduct to the examina-
),n of such a body, his inconsistency in nibbling at petty,
ry reform, whilst lie supported Ministers in all their pro-
be slaty and extravagance, would be found out, and he would
considered as he ought to be.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as this was a
nlotion for information, although he did not think a case had
been made for it, he should not make aey opposition. But
;vith regard to the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, he would
take the liberty of making a few observations on what had
fallen from him. He owned he thought he had with much
Ctrstlour and gallantry made the attack on his Honourable
"lend (Mr. Bankes), more so, indeed, than he thought
Prudence, in his cooler Moments, would sanction. If in-
tend of leading the attack himself, to cover the re-
treat of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevev), he had
.lajeepted the offer of the services of the Henourable
felt ter for Westminster (Mr. Hubliouse), it would have been
".1 better taste. His talents were of a nature peculiarly
limited to the task, and as he had lately come amongst them,
lie had the advantage of riot being mixed up with any of
~muse anterior transactions which had rendered the situa-
• `°ll of the Honourable Moves so desperate since the ex-
position of the Honourable Member for Corte Castle (Mr.
pankes). He had, however, gallantly charged his Hon.
!lend, and it veould he worth while to see how he had met
,u,mn,t• He said he was not in Parliament in 1810, when the
trineiple, afterwards acted upon in the Bill of 1817, was
Aroadly laid down. Both lie and the Honourable ISlember for
P,Pieby, however, were the determined advocates of the Bill
u"enspted to be introduced in 1813, which embodied all that
t"'as contained in that of 1817. With regard to any attempt
repeal that Bills whatever it might be considered in that
a °use, out of it, he begged to say, it would be looked upon
they approaching to swindling. They had prevailed upon
the
Crown to give up valuable rights it held for the benefit of
41e nation, on the guarantee of this Bill. The Bill granted
s le Power ef rewarding public services, and the clamour raised
gainst it, under the particular circumstances, he thought was
Mneither fair, honourable, nor straight forward. The Hon.
embers who were now for repealing the Bill had supported
for several years, and they now wished to pull down the
raised 14 their own hands. They seemed to think that
Majesty's Ministers formed a sort of corporation, and
aaldeomfortably provide for each other out of the funds with-
t ever going into the presence of their Sovereign. But they
„4eerned to have no other objection than that pensions should
be bestowed under this Bill without service; and he felt
.tilvinced nothing they had urged in behalf of their own sen-
litnents would alienate the House from the strict and obvious
fse of duty. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had indul.
ed his taste in a manner that he could ot consider candid.
‘_,n the list of sums of public money received by some indivi.
uals lie had named, he omitted to mention the honourable
.act, that the Duke. of Buckingham had sacrificed a large
sans, which he voluntarily gave up.—(Hear, hear.)—He did
null,
know if that Hon. Gentleman had got workers on in ge-
tZral, but it was seldom that lie directed his regards other
rs straight before him.—(Laughter.)—lle had sat many
,eats fronting him (the Marquis of Londonderry,) and he had
"ever observed him look aside before. He had taken the cal.
Zslation to be read to the House out of a very neat pocket-
hook
e, where he scented to have a store of the same kind ; and
.would certainly take the liberty of recommending him to
one more to his stock of the deserts of individuals who so
r,'rticularlf called fdrth his spleen. As he seemed to have had
never
little papers in his pocket-book for some time, and had
rtryer produced them before, lie could not help thinking
riola.t had it not been for recent. circumstances, they would
4± now have been favoured with a glimps.--(A
7.knew that when the Hon. Member hade got.himself into
4- from pledging himself to move the repeal of a Bill,
ill.!eerenild.tiet.easily get out of it, but he could assure the Hon.
ember for Appleby, that such a motion would probably be
or one. least well received of any that should he brought
svard during the whole Session. With the exception, per-
ieicliedof a few Members on the third bench opposite,
e House Would be generally indisposed to adopt this crane-
PrinciPle•—(Laughter.)—The Hon. Member had come
p(l,o°..Wri to the House apparently with a most determined pun-
,,,rsand he always bad a severity about his manner, which
naturals created alarm. These dreadful appearances, how-
,: had not been, ealized, and there was nothing to lead to
,_se conclusion that the Hon. Member would be less good Im.
B"!o;tired this Session than he was the last. He would only
t: that.of all the motions that could be brought forward in '
slit present Session, there was none -be apprehended the ,

' failure or more than that promised by the Ittin:Nrotutiei.--
(Hear, hear!)
Mr;CREEVEY, in reply, observed, that he was not more
open to the charge of inconsistency on the subject than
Majesty's Ministers, who now supported warmly what they
formerly opposed. He was glad to hear from such high au-
thority, that no motion would be worse received by his Ma-.
jesty's Ministers, than that he had promised for the repeal of
this Bill, which he should certainly do all in his power to get
erased from the Statute Book.

After a few words from Sir R. HERON, the Resolutions were
agreed to.

IRISH COURTS OF JUSTICE.

Mr. SPRING RICE called to the recollection of the House,
that in the last Session a Report from the Commissioners on
the Courts of Justice of Ireland was laid on their Table, and
he had in consequence given a long notice of a motion on the
subject of it. He had then felt it his duty to submit to the
House certain propositions, which were withdrawn on the
proposal of the Noble Marquis to submit it to a Committee
up stairs. That Committee had made a Report, which was
presented at the end of the last Session, in which they state
on one point, that the letter of the Chief Baron of the Ex-
chequer of Ireland was not satisfactory; on others that more
information was necessary. The Noble Marquis had pledged
himself to supply Parliament with the information which
might be necessary. To ascertain what steps had been taken
to supply that information,' was one of the objects of the pre-
sent motion, as the subject loudly called fur investigation. In
the next place a stamp tax had heels imposed to pay the sala-
ries of some of the officers of the Courts of Justice. He wish-
ed to know the produce of this tax. The Government had, by
a recent Act. of Parliament, the power to appoint to certain of-
fices in the Courts of Justice in Ireland, which were now vacant.
He wished to have an account of these offices. He hoped the
Irish Government, in filling them up, would not appoint
any men who had been marked as public delinquents. He
was the more anxious to call for this information, because the
Chief Baron, in describing the practices in the Exchequer,
had stated that his practice was supported by that of the
King's Bench, which the Chief Justice of that Court had
stated was nut the case. The Honourable Member con-
cluded by moving an Address for the Correspondence between
the Irish Government and the Courts of Justice on the Re-
port of the Commissioners on the Fees, &c. of Courts of
Justice, and other information connected with the same
subject.
Mr. GOULBURN made no opposition to the motion, and
observed, that the Report which he had this Session laid on
the table, and which was in the course of printing, contained
much information on the matter in question.
After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT, the motion was
agreed to.
Mr. S. RICE moved for an Account of Commissions grant-
ed to swear affidavits in Ireland in the last year, and the Fees
taken on recognizances, and the swearieig of Sheriffs since
1608.—Agreed to.
COMMISSION OF SEWERS.

- Mr. DICKINSON moved fur a Select Committee to inquire
into the law and practice of the Commission of Sewers, and
to report thereon, with their observations, to the House.—
Agreed to, and the Committee named.