The Sun.
London, England, 1836-05-20 00:00:00

member how Brennus, in the early history of Rome, con-
ducted himself towards the patrician body of that city, and
perhaps the modern Brennus may hope thus to outweigh the
Houma of Lords ; but I will tell the Noble Lord this, that
be never will be able to overcome the undaunted courage of
t. assembly unless he marches into it with 150 new Peers
to hveries of blue and buff at his heels.—(Cheers and laugh-
ter') Unless he alters the constitution of that assembly—
!_siess he persuades his Majesty to create 150 new Peers—he
Tay rest assured that he will never be able to carry through
Parliament the clause for spoliating the Irish Church, or the
?tiler provision for establishing normal schools of agitation
m every quarter of Ireland. I repeat that the best thanks
of the country are due to the House of Lords. I re-
peat that they possess and enjoy in a greater degree than
any other tribunal the respect and confidence of the public.
*(Cheers from the Opposition side, and laughter from the
Ministerial side of the House.) Hardly a Bill is sent up
Fora this House, which does not bear most unequivocal and
humiliatingtmiliating marks of crude and partial legislation ' • it is the
ness, the practice, and the province of the House of
'Laurels to detect our anomalies, to supply our deficiencies,
and to rectify our blunders. There is not a measure that
comes back from thence unimproved, and their Lordships at
41 time show their superiority in talents, in knowledge, in
temper, and in statesmanlike qualities. Although we have
Provided commodious benches here for the accommodation
of their Lordships, we never have the pleasure of seeing any
j4thern ; but if a discussion take place in the other House,
Ministers and Radicals arc observed crowding to the bar,
and eagerly listening, although to their great personal in-
convenience.—(Cheers.) If unexpectedly summoned from
thence to vote on a division, although they may not have
beard a single word of the debate, how reluctantly do they
leave their stations, and return to them afterwards with the
greediest expoditior..—(Laughter.) I shall not trouble the
l'iouse further at present ; I shall only conclude by saying,
that in England, in Scotland, and in Ireland too, among
Persons of intelligence, influence, and property, the House
°f Lords has earned to itself a debt of gratitude which
Public approbation will not fail to acknowledge, and the
Members of that House who joined in amending this Bill
will be handed down to posterity among the eminent bene-
factors of their country.—(Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I rise merely to remark,
that whatever reasoning there may be in the speech of the
Hon. Baronet, it is not to be taken as an answer to any
thing I said. I did not enter into the merits or demerits
of the House of Lords, and I hope I uttered nothing which
rendered necessary the panegyric which has just been pro-
nounced.—( Hear.) I hope, too, that this House will not
he led by the Hon. Baronet into topics quite foreign to
the real question before it.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUIIE i—Having been personally alluded to, the
House will give me leave to say that I have unquestion-
ably been seen at the bar of the House of Lords during
the late discussions, and that I heard with the utmost
astonishment the language used in that assembly.—
(Cheer's.) In one part, and one part only, of my Hon.
Friend's speech just delivered do I concur. It is where
he told us of the difficulties that now exist. From the
Manner in which he expressed himself I apprehend that he
Spoke from some authority, and according to him the House
of Lords never will do justice to Ireland.—(Hear.)
Sir G. SINCLAIR—I did not say so.
Mr. HUME—My Hon. Friend will allow me to say
that his declaration amounted to that. He told us that
the House of Lords never would concede what I think,
and what a majority of this House thinks, justice to Ireland.
-.--Wheers.) I should indeed be sorry to believe that he
Is a true interpreter of the intentions of their Lordships.
While he was stating the differences between this and the
other House I wish he had shown us also some way of
getting out of the difficulty in which we are now placed.
He says that Ministers never can overcome the majority of
the Peers; but let me ask him how are the Peers to over-
4eome the large majority of the Commons ?—(Much cheer-
ing.) He expressed surprise that I and other Radicals
should go on so smoothly and quietly with the present Go-
vernment. No doubt he heartily wishes it was otherwise.
He asserts that if the same measures had been proposed
by other Ministers we should factiously oppose them. To
this I have to answer that no such measures have been
brought forward by the other side, therefore he has no means of
making the comparison. When did be ever hear of any sincere
intention on that side ofthe House to respect the rights of the
People ? When did he ever hear on that • side such senti-
ments as have just been delivered by the Noble Lord ?
When my Hon. Friend rose I rose also, in order to ex-
press what I trust is the opinion of the Hon. Friends who
surround me. The Noble Lord stated clearly and de-

cidedly what was his wish and the wish of the Government
• respecting the measure as sent from the House of Lords.
He deplored the changes without entering into particulars
regarding them ; but with the means of information we
possess we cannot be ignorant of what has been done, and
I beg my Hon. Friend to recollect that one of the great
evils and curses of the country has been the treatment of
Ireland—the unequal, tyrannical, and oppressive treatment
of her for centuries.—(Cheers.) If be asks, then, what
is the bond of union between the Radicals and the Whigs,
1 answer that it is the principle now laid down for the
:first time of doing equal justice to Ireland.—(Hear.)
1- believe that that is the chief, the sole bond which
4.6 is united, and, I hope, will continue to unite us. Dif-
1761?ces of opinion may—must—exist ; all shades are
In thetrust all shades of reform eme inquire how
House treat Mr. O'Connell'l ts
motion for Re-
peal? I, among others, strongly reprobated it. I wished
Indeed to improve the condition of the people of Ireland,
but I most strenuously opposed the motion, and agreed to
the amendment—for what was it? That this House would
roceed to do ample justice to Ireland in all matters of
legislation or arrangement. There was, I think, only one
English Member who supported the Repeal, and he did
so because he was impressed, like my Hon. Friend op-
• Insite (Sir George Sinclair), that the House of Lords
never would do justice to Ireland. In order that Ireland
I,l.l_eht have justice, he voted for the Repeal of the
Union. As to the debt of gratitude to the House of
Lords, I have no hesitation in saying, that if there be any
body of men in the kingdom whose acts have been more
detrimental to peace and tranquillity than another, it is the
Mouse of Lords.—(Much cheering.) If what my Hon.
Priend has stated be the correct interpretation, I ask him
this :—lf the Protestants rejoice at the proceedings of the
''''°use of Lords towards Ireland, what do the Roman Ca-
tholics do ? If one party rejoices, the other must deplore ;
and what then becomes of peace and tranquillity ? If one-
tenth of the population is pleased, and nine-tenths dis-
pleased, by being deprived of the rights and privileges ac-
"hied to Englishmen and Scotchmen, what must be the re-
. atilt? Why are the people of Ireland to put up with less
Pau the people of England or Scotland ? Ido hope, there-
ore, that the House of Commons will never rest satisfied
until it has, by means of its power and influence, carried
through
the Legislature measures of equal justice to Ireland.
~,-*:-(Chcers from all sides.) Let the contest come when it
~,u,raY, the House of Commons has not sought it.—(Cheers.)
44121 Hon. Friend has thrown out a taunt, that last
;elision I gave a notice which I have not renewed this
lion. and he has asked why I did not redeem my
pledgeti ? I answer that I have been governed by discre-
,n,n•--(Cheers and laughter.) I found that at different
11alic meetings some of the Peers had declared that no
tibt justice would be done to Ireland by the House
r Lords. I waited therefore to see the issue, and if I
ad not waited patiently, how I should have been met I
nee,-1 not say. Ido not now anticipate what proceedings
pay be necessary, but I have no hesitation in saying that
s,,t session the country looked for some motion for the reform
„,
the House of Lords. This year we wished to leave them
act without anything like an impending threat. As an in-
the Member, I declare it to be my decided opinion that
.„,n Conduct of the other House has been highly detri-
irntal—that it is the only stop at the present moment to
et happiness and prosperity which the country was
toll? otherwise to enjoy.—(Cheers.) I regret exceedingly
4 ear that the House of Lords not only stands, but in-
it • s to stand, in the way of national improvement—that
skis °PPosed to all alterations—to all reforms : come to
let
conclusion it must and will. As to an organic change
ine inquire for what was the House of Lords established?
j wEat was the House of Commons established ? To
for
good government to the people.—( Cheers.) If it be
tin good
that any branch of the Legislature—the House of
ords .
•ti for instance—opposes obstinacy to reason and jus-
ehe,.' and actually refuses measures deemed essential. by the
44-esentatives of the people, the question then arises what
14014 to ? Every man will ask whether we are to allow
vernOr 150 individuals to impede the progress of good go-
a.iortrnt ? Are we to place ourselves at the mercy of the
war ds' and to leave them to dole out what they think good
111 the quantities that they think proper? My lion.
of end knows that if we employ machinery, and the cogs
Dai.,.:in of the wheels do not act, that wheel must be re-
Nth uor removed. Do not let him fancy that there is any
titil sacred in the character of the House of Lords which
414 rabic it to impede good government with impunity ;
1) de4 .0 is mistaken if he thinks the people of England will
nOj It' Iwhat may be
will not now state means taken,
400L'ernernber that twenty-five years ago my Hon. Friend
4404 in favour of a reform of this House.—(Cheers and
it)4tylr.) His maiden Tpcecb, if lam not mistaken, was
°I • "r of reform and Ile must allow me remind him
eau,
~or„,. ough his opinions have since undergone an
414,7'we change."—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) I ask
ketish`f.en, as an early reformer, if the other House obstruct
tetut necessary for the peace and happiness of the
oa eor7, what must follow ? In this House we have had
au organic change as could well be effected,
vswei ,tosolute nonsense to say that we have not the
got, I?,:natze an organic change in the other House. My
rear me says the change here is not complete
ghat haselizvc not half done ; but I am only speaking of
already been accomplished. We have reformed