The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-15 00:00:00

THE BUDGET.

Lord ALTHORP wished to take the earliest opportu-
nity of making some observations on the propositions he
brought forward the other evening. His object in
bringing forward those resolutions was to do all in his
power to relieve the taxes on the manufacturing interests,
and also the oppressive manner in which those taxes were
collected. That class were borne down with taxes. The
proposition, however, which he brought forward had
met with numerous objections ; it had been said it would be
impossible to carry it into effect. Now on the lat-
ter point he had consulted the most experienced per-
sons, and they agreed with him that it would be very easy to
tax a transfer of bona fide stock, and also that it would
be very easy to distinguish between such transfers and
those of mortgage. He had not thee the authority
to mention one individual whom he had consulted, but
he now had ; it was the Governor of the Bank of
England._( Hear, hear. )—This gentleman was of opi-
nion the tax might be carried into operation with facility.
Neither had he (Lord Althorp) heard any argument
that convinced him, if carried into effect, that it
would be at all inconsistent with the public faith.
—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Had he, however, for a moment
entertained any such idea, he would have been the last
man to have brought forward such a proposition. He still
thought the tax might be imposed with advantage to the
country; but after the opposition it hid met with, it was
ritt his intention to persevere in pressing it.--(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear, hear !" from all parts of the
House.) He had certainly conceived it to be right
to take the earliest opportunity of stating his intention
not to persevere with the tax; but, in doing so, it
would be quite obvious that he must abandon the
idea of making some of the reductions in other taxes
that he bad intended.—(Hear.)—He should therefore not
reduce the tax on tobacco or on glass.—(Loud cries of
hear, hear, hear.)—A misconception had gone abroad
as to his motives in proposing a tax on tobacco. He
was of opinion that that article was as goad an object of
taxation as any other; but the duty on it at present
inducement
to so large, that it held out great
to smuggling.—(Hear.)—He thought, therefore, by
reducing it, it would do away with those disgraceful scents
which had been carried on, more particularly on tne
eastern coast of Ireland. After making these observa-
tions it was unnecessary for him to say more. He would
therefore only add that he still thought that the tax on the
transfer of funded property might be imposed without any
difficulty, and with great benefit to the country.
Mr. WARD wished to show the greatest forbearance to
any persons entrusted with the administration of Govern-
meat; but he conceived, that if the proposition for
laying a tax on funded property had been persevered
in, he might have protested against such a measure.,
i
come from what Minister it might. He bad been on-
! mately connected for the last 25 years with the negociations
for all loans of money lent to the Government, and be
could safely say that no individual ever left the Trea-
sury Chambers without an opinion, if not an assur-
ance, that no stamp or tax should at any suloe •
quent period be levied upon transfers of that description
of property. He felt obliged to the Noble Lord for thus
early announcing his intention not to persevere in the tax.
Mr. LYTTLETON had beard the Noble Lord with
mingled satisfaction and regret—satisfaction, that the
Noble Lord had exhibited on this occasion the same candid,
manly, and opera conduct which had ever distinguished
him—and that he (Lord Althorp) hid exhibited a be-
coming deference to the authority of the character and
great professional eminence of the Hon. Members who
had opposed his measure. He regretted the greatigno-
rance (he did not use the term offensively) of the Hon.
Members opposite to their own real interest. He was
satisfied, too, notwithstanding the show of resistance
to
that House, that if the Noble Lord had waited for a little
Ito take the sense of the country upon it, be might have
carried his measure, and if not by a triumphal majority, at
least by such a majority as would fully justify him in car-
rying-it into effect. He stated that great dissatisfaction pre-
vailed amongst the agricultural and manufacturing inte:e is
at the immunity from taxes conceded to the fundholder,
and expressed his opinion, that the failure in this project
would be hereafter the occasion of a property tax being
imposed, instead of those duties which pressed on the
springs of productive industry.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL asked the Noble Lord if he
did not propose to take the tax off the transfer of land as
well as property in the funds ?
Lord ALTHORP, in answer to the Hon. Member op-
posite (Mr. Ward), observed, the Governor of the Bank
had positively told bins the collection of the tax and the
distinction between the transfers was easy. In reply to the
Hon. Baronet, he was understood to say that, considering
how heavily the land was already burthened, he could not
think of leaving a tax on it which he removed from pro-
perty in the funds.—(The Noble Lord spoke across the
table and in a very low tone of voice.)
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON (as we understood)
said that since the finance statement had been
submitted to the House, he had seen letters
from some of the most respectable parties con-
nected with the wine trade of the Cape of Good Hope,
and from whose letters it appeared, that in a state-
ment forwarded to the Colonial-office in the course of last
year, it was clearly shown that no less a sum than one
million two hundred thousand pounds was invested in
vineyards in the neighbourhood of Cape Town, besides
investments of 60,0001. in vineyards in other parts of the
colony. That in brandy casks alone there was invested
no less a sum than 200,000/. ; that the stock of wine
on hand was worth 125,000/. ; and the wine in bond
100,000/., making a total of upwards of 1,700' 000/.
embarked in that trade. There were no less than 420 fa-
milies erg bed in the Cape wine trade, and the consequence
of the present measure would be such a fall hi the value,
that the whole of this capital, with the exception of the
casks which contained the wines would be destroyed. By

this measure the duty upon the wines of Portugal,
which now paid one hundred per cent., would be
increased to snore than 115 per cent., whilst the addi-
tional tax of sixpence a gallon on Cape wines would in-
crease the tax on that commodity to 110 per cent. He
saw no reason why the wines of the Cape of Good Hope
should not be entitled to the same protection against
foreign wines, a a British spirits were against foreign
spirits. He also hoped the Noble Lord would re-consider his
proposition with respect to the timber trade.—(Laughter.)
He was sorry to trespass on the patience of the Home.
(Hear.) But if Members bad the same opportunity that
he had of seeing the state of the shipping interest, they
would see that he was only performing his duty to a
valuable class of society.—(Hear, hear.)—By the returns
on the table, it would appear that in the year 1829 the
North American timber trade employed 1611 ship,
431,900 tonnage, and 12,098 seamen ; that the number
of British seamen employed in the Baltic outward trade
amounted to 345 men, 45 ships, and 7,500 tonnage ;
whilst the foreigners employed in the same trade
amounted to 193 ships, 40,791 tons, and 1,641 seamen.
From this it was evident that if some competition were
not kept up in the trade between the British colonies and
the Baltic, the whole colonial timber trade, as far as
the home supply was concerned, would be destroyed.
Before he sat down he begged to ask the Noble Losd
(fie Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether it was
his intention to allow any drawback upon the
stock on hand of printed cottons? When the Noble
Lord considered that this was the season of the year
when houses employed were i❑ that trade, and that the
alteratio❑ of duties would make a difference of 30 per
cent., he trusted that the Noble Lord would, if pos-
sible, avert the ruinous consequences which must result
from refusing drawbacks.
Lord ALTHORP, in answer to the question, must say
that every man who considered this subject, would agree
that to return the duties on all the printed
cottons in all the shops, would open a door to the
greatest frauds. It was true that in all cases of alteration
of duties some loss must be unavoidably experienced by the
parties engaged in the trade ; but experience convinced him
that a proposal to remedy individual looses would be pro-
ductive of the greatest injury to the public, by the facili-
ties it would afford to frauds.

Sir J. YORKE gave every degree of credit to the Mi-
nisters for what they had done, but he feared it would be
found that they had attempted to do too much : he feared
that they had endeavoured to conciliate public Opinion too
much, and because the late Government had taken off three
millions and a half of taxes last year, they imagine they
must do the same this year, and thus in the short space of
two years, reduce one-eight on the whole revenue of the
country. By doing this, or rather attempting to do it—
for he believed they must be unsuccessful in their attempt
—they did but disturb the state of the public revenue
without producing any advantage, and needless difficulties
were occasioned which the Government must prepare to
meet. He recommended the Government to adopt a dif-
ferent course from that which they had stated they intended
to pursue ; he recommended them to take off two taxes,
and not to put on any other. The taxes he advised them
to reduce were, that on coals and calicoes, and having taken
them off, the public would receive a great benefit without
the revenue being diminished, and without the Govern-
ment being under the necessity of imposing other taxes to
supply the place of those which had been removed. In
his opinion the Government might retain the tax on news-
papers, the reduction of which would be less beneficial
than the imposition of others would be injurious.
Mr. WARBURTON said if a property tax were pro-
posed it would produce many millions, and he would give
it his support, as it would enable Government to take off
many millions of the taxes which now pressed on the pro-
ductive industry of the country, and relieve Govern-
ment from the necessity of imposing any taxes on such
an infant branch of trade as steam-boats.

Mr. P. THOMSON must beg to remind the House,
that while the expenditure of the Government remained
what it was, the only relief that could be afforded to the
people was by the mutation of taxes—(Hear, ),ear)—so
as to be able to relieve the productive industry of the coun-
try.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was with the view of giving ad-
vantage to our productive industry—it was with the wish
to relieve the poor classes, that his Noble Friend (and he
believed the country gave his Noble Friend credit for these
wishes) had made these proposals in the budget. By the
new arrangement of the various taxes now existing, his
Noble Friend relieved the productive classes to the amount
of four millions, while be had only re-imposed taxation to
the amount of 1,300,0001., to be drawn from the pocket
of the consumer. He regretted much that the tobacco
duties must be continued, and he regretted it for two
rea,ons, first, because the people had been deprived of a
considerable relief ; and next, because the reduction of that
duty was made on the principle of getting rid of smuggling
by the reduction of high duties, which now operated as a
premium on its continuance. At an expence of 100,0001.,
to come from the pockets of the consumer, his Noble
Friend had relieved the people from taxes amounting
to two millions. He took off a duty of 800,0001.
upon coals—another of 500,0001. upon calicoes—
another of 450,000/. on candles and another of
250,0001. ; and after all these reductions, the
surplus was not diminished, but it was actually
increased, by the simple mutation of taxes to the amount
of only 100,0001. His Noble Friend had reduced the
duty on wine, and on timber, and yet the revenue was
augmented.—(Hear, hear.)—He made a similar reduc.
tion with regard to cotton, and still the revenue was in-
creased.—( Hear. )—He took the duty off coals, and made
the foreigner contribute 100,0001. a year to the revenue
of the country.—(Cheers.)—Then it was said that par-
tial equalization of the duty on timber was an evil, and
that the shipping interest would be much injured by it.
In the first place, he denied at least the amount of the
injury they were likely to suffer; and in the next, he
must say, that no one class of persons in the country
were entitled to have their interests considered in exclu-
sion of the interests of all the rest.—(Hear, hear.)—
That policy was a bad one which affected to bolster up
one class of persons at the expence of an injury to all
others. Supposing, however, that the shipping interest
would be injured by the tax on timber, he must say, that
he had a right to balance against it the benefit that inte-
rest would receive from the reduction of the duty—a re-
duction that lie had no doubt would double the number of
ships now employed in that trade.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
The agriculturists of the country would be much bene-
fitted by the mutation of the timber duty, since they
would procure all those things in which timber was con-
sumed at a much cheaper rate than at present.—( Hear,
hear.)—When they were told, too, that the British ship-
ping interests would be injured by the mutation of duty,
they ought to recollect, that in 1810 the number of Bri-
tish ships employed in the timber trade in the Baltic was
considerable, there being 480,000 tons of shipping em-
ployed in importing timber from the shores of the Baltic
at that time. Under these circumstances, he must re-
peat, that he regretted the failure of his Noble Friend's
plan, and that in his opinion the House could not do
better than confirm by their votes the propositions which
his Noble Friend had submitted to them.

Mr. PRAED, after apologising to the House for tres-
passing on their attention on a question so complicated as
the present, thanked the Noble Lord opposite for having,
by withdrawing the duty on transfers of property, saved
him the necessity of giving it his opposition. Of the
proposition of that duty he would now say, that he should
have been ready to support it, if he could have believed it
even to have been expedient, although the Noble Lord
might not have been able to satisfy him that it was just.
It was owing to the landed interest, that up to this hour
in periods of great difficulty and distress, faith had been
kept with the public creditor, and he trusted that at this
moment nothing would be done that was not founded on
the same spirit. It seemed to him that the Noble Lord
had been guilty of one great mistake, and that was this—
that when he took - the duty off one article and transferred
the burden to another, he placed too much confidence in
the increased consumption of the article making up for
the effects of the diminution of duty. In this country it
was difficult to remove a duty from a taxed to place it on a
hitherto untaxed article. If, therefore, the duty wastram-
ferred, it must be transferred from an article already taxed to
one also taxed, but in a different degree. Upon this change
the revenue would gain or lose in proportion as the
article to which the duty was transferred had before
been more lightly or more heavily taxed. He would now
apply this
pr i
nte observationd
calicoe
calicoes. .oT the case h
eni of the
most popular
popu
iar commutation
argument
oonf
tdhuitsypoonint was the fact, that the existing duty pressed heavily
upon the poorer, and lightly upon the richer classes. He ad-
mitted the fact, that it was a partial and oppressive tax,
and if the revenue could afford to lose the tax, it ought to
be repealed. But then what was it that the Ministers
proposed to substitute for it? Why, one penny a pound
upon raw cotton. Now he proposed to show that the
poorer classes would gain little or nothing by the substi-
tution. It happened that a piece of common printed
calico weighed about four pounds, aisd was charged atabout Gs. or Bs. It followed that the tax on the raw ma.-
terial of this article would amount to 4d. upon Bs., or 5
per cent. A piece of striped muslin worn by the higher
classes weighed about two pounds, and was charged at
40s. at a low calculation. It followed from this state-
went, that the tax on the proposed commutation would
amount on the lower priced goods to 5 per cent., and on
the bight!' priced article to only half per cent.—C Hear.....

There might be many reasons which made it appear to
the House good to take off the duty upon printed calicoes,
and to put it upon the raw cottons, but he must confess
that he thought the Noble Lord could not take credit for
having conferred a very extensive boon upon the lower
orders. There was another objection to this tax, and that
was the concomitant of a drawback, au that he feared
the revenue would gain less than was supposed. There was
one other point which seemed not to have been overlooked
by the Noble Lord himself, but of which he had taken no
public notice—he meant the effect, the immediate effect
that must be produced in discouraging, if not extinguish-
ing, the importation of cottons from our East India colo-
nies. An indiscriminate duty of Id. on cottons would
bear more heavily on the cottons from the East Indies
than from the Brazils and the Htvannali. He had now a
return of the quantity of cotton imported during the last
year. The account was made up to 81st December, 1830.
The price of Surats was sd. per pound, a tax of ld. per
'A a pound, and the duty on that would
pd g oa nwetlrreat6l,rrice was 20 p.-r cent. The cottons from
be 18i- per cent. The cottons from New Orleans were 7d.
per pound, and the duty on that would be 144 per cent.
The cottons from Pernambuco were Bd. per pound, and
the duty on them would amount to 12i- per cent. The re-
sult therefore of this indiscriminate duty would be to im-
pose a heavier tax upon the cottons from our own colonies
than on those front foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) He
had the authority of those who were deeply interested in
this trade for saying that it must put an end to the im-
portation of East India cotton. He could scarcely conceive
that the Noble Lord, when he was satisfied of the ac-
curacy of this statement, would 'persist in the imposition
of the tax. He believed, that with a very slight improve-
ment, Surats would be applicable to any part of our manu-
factures. He put it to the Noble Lord, whether he would
impose a duty which would have the effect of putting an
end to that branch of productive industry ? If our Lidi,n
cotton trade was encouraged, we should be independent of
the cotton from the United States. He would ask whe-
ther this was a time to diminish the value of East India
cottons, when we were about to call on the Company to
make sacrifices for the benefit of the State ? The Mini-
sters ought to remember that these cottons were exclusively
our own colonial produce, and that they were brought
hither exclusively in British ships. He was sorry to say
that the importation of these cottons had much diminished
within the last three years; and .he believed, that if this
duty were added, it would be destroyed altogether. Feeling
as he did up this subject, he should take the sense of the
Committee on the propriety of relieving our colonies from
the effect of this tax.—(Hear, bear. )
Sir J. GRAHAM congratulated the Hon. and Learned
Member on the manner in which he had gone through that
which he (Sir J. G.) knew from experience to be a severe
and painful trial—namely, that of addressing that House
for the first time : and in observing the great perspicuity
with which the Hon. and Learned Member had delivered
his sentiments, he could not avoid congratulating the
House on the accession of talent and information they had
gained by the introduction of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber. He (Sir J. Graham) also partook in some degree of
the embarrassment under which the Hon. Member had
seemed to labour, although on various former occasions he
had presented himself to the notice of the house. He was
free to confess, with the frankness due from every roan,
that upon this subject he had felt considerable difficulty.
He had found it impossible to disconnect the subject of the
budget from the question of the currency generally, and
upon that he had expressed sentiments dissonant from
those of many of his colleagues. In consequence of the
open avowal of those opinions, an endeavour had been made
to fix upon him a degree of obloquy, in which, at all
events, he was anxious that, his colleagues should not par-
ticipate. The Hon. Member who had just sat down, bad
said that he would have supported the tax upon the transfer
of property, had it been established to be expedient, even if
be hall failed to prove that it was just. He (Sir J. Q. )
would never have supported the tax on the ground of ex.
pediency, if he were not also satisfied in his conscience
that it was not unjust. Perhaps, as the King's Mini-
sters had declared that they did not mean to press the tax,
it was superfluous to press the topic, but for his own
sake, and for the sake of those who acted with him, he
wished to state the view he and they took of the justice
of the tax. In the first place he could not discharge
from his mind all that had taken place regarding the
money transactions of the country during the last thirty
years. Out of office he had not hesitated, and in office
be would not scruple to declare that since the fatal Bank
Restriction Act of 1797, which an Hon. Member on a
former occasion had spoken of as a year of palmy credit,
the Money transactions of the country from time to time
had been regulated by measures, not only not in the ab-
stract just, but, as he contended, flagrantly unjust. The
Legislature had thus been involved in so many difficulties
that the question had not been, how could it act with
strict justice to all parties—but in what manner it could
avoid the greatest sum of injustice.—(Hear, hear.)—ln
1797, what had been the conduct of the Legislature?
It announced to every creditor in the kingdom, " You
shall not receive what you stipulated to receive ; but
something you did not stipulate to receive. Your
contract was, that you should be paid in gold, but we
(the Legislature) decide that you shall have nothing
but paper." In 1819, the directly opposite course
was taken ; it adopted a measure of the grossest injustice
to all debtors. The Legislature said to the debtors—
" You shall pay what you did not contract to pay ; you
agreed to pay fifteen shillings, but we, by an Act we are
about to pass, call upon you to pay twenty shillings."—
(Hear.)—These directly opposite courses had embarrassed
and encumbered all questions of finance, so that ever v
step taken was fettered or threatened with danger. As
occasion pressed, the burden had been shifted from one
class to another ; but no substantial relief had been af-
forded to any. The fact was, that it was extremely dif-
ficult, if not impossible, for the Legislature of the country
to provide for all parties interested by measures abstract-
edly just. As to the particular precedent, he had been
surprised to hear the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the op-
posite side declaring so earnestly and so solemnly on the
supposed injustice of the tax upon transfer. If lie were
not mistaken the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
when be was Secretary for Ireland, in 1816, voted
for a continuation of the property tax, although it
was an express stipulation, when the tax was origi-
nally imposed, that it should cease within six
months after the signature of a definitive treaty of
peace...—(Hear, hear.)—Yet, in the teeth of that en-
gagement, and disregardless of a stipulation so express
and positive as was contained in the words " no longer,"
the Right Hon. Baronet and his colleagues had voted for
the permanent establishment of the property tax.--(Hear,
hear.)—As to the public creditor, he had a question or
two to ask with reference to the contract generally, for he
did not mean to enter into any special pleading regarding
the particular terms, although it seemed to him that there
was something rather prospective than retrospective in
the words " any law or statute to the contrary notwith-
standing." Was there no distinct contract between the
public creditor and the Government embodied in an Act of
Parliament which had been violated ? Was there no spe-
cial engagement in every Loan Act from the time of Mr.
Pitt, and upon the insertion of which he had claimed
credit, which, year after year, bad been abandoned? In
every Bill for raising a loan a distinct clause had been in.
serted, providing that a tuna fide sinking fund of one per
cent. should be provided. Minister after Minister had
followed the example of Mr. Pitt; and yet that con-
tract had been treated as so much waste paper : one
per cent. over and above the interest of the debt had been
stipulated to be provided, and yet the public faith hod
been violated most irreligiously-. Coming down to a last r
date, it was difficult to conceive a contract more spe-
cial—more distinct, or more solemnly ratified by the
Legislature, and even made a matter of boast by the
originators of the measure, that after 1819 a bona fide
sinking fund should be provided out of the surplus re-
venue, of not less than five millions annually. Yet the
Right Hon. Gentlemen themselves had turned their backs
iplainlyyou toldmu stth
be publices ats fi creditorsatisfied
wt
with
upon their own Bill—had forfeited their pledge, and had
we can provide, although we have undertaken to provide
t:
Nobley oua r eLo
arra dr
themselvese
(r 1
Ao
nt
tsoha
olt
rsnpfig): liriYadus capablewtait t
re
Right Hon. Gentlemen left the helm of the State, declar-
ing:(gri of holding
nlemn: ooali
oil onieringrienie;s; and
\ssnnVOmiligif:(
,teftittriboo,aeats ret'.
there being a surplus revenue of even three millions, the
r
ht
he found it, on entering office, somewhat less than
300,000/.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not wish to travel
further in this direction ; but he was bound to say, look-
ing at all these circumstances, that he did not consider the
specific contract between the public and the State so strin-
gent, that if the Government could shetv a case of ne-
cessity—for the sake, for instance, of relieving the la-
bouring classes—they might not be abandoned. Upon this
point lie had deliberated much : and he came to the con-
clusion that he did not think it inconsistent with an ade-
quate observance of public faith. He thought that the only
point Ministers had to establish was, that this new im-
post did not press exclusively on the fundholder, but
that it embraced every species of property. When once
that point was established, the tax fell precisely within
the precedent of the property tax. Personal chat-
tels/ it was to be recollected, were already taxed ;
all shares in Insurance Companies, Canal Companies,
Bank Stock, East India Stock, and property of that
kind, if he were rightly informed, at this moment contri-

huted their full proportion to the revenue. lie wag W
willing on some accounts to refer to what bad paned a
former occasions, but the Hon. Member for Dumfrii
(Mr. K. Douglas) on Friday night used a very hall
i
term, when he asserted that theA?i4tinition of a taxd
half per cent. on real and personal property wasbun e
in dishonesty. As borderers—the Hon. 31efiabei vel),11,
selling Dumfries, and he (Sir J. Graham)Cuthb!i
land—it might be said that they had a sort of b°111e;
acquaintance—he meant an acquaintance' bordering ?to
friendship; but the surprise he had felt was dimintb'
by the Hon. Member's explanation. After at:casinsister
of dishonesty, he had added, that the present 1W ,o,
were not likely to stand ; so that the subject of congTo
lotion explained the origin of the charge ; it was 110 t
any Goeer,,
likely that the Hon. Member would accuse
ment he thought would be permanent with dishoneffis?.e:
but flattering himself, in his anxiety to return ta ° ht
that those wlio had trnd him out would not along
a keep their places, he had thought himself very
take
in making his accusation. It was at least prudent t°cient
dG'fie
what he considered the stronger side, however
such conduct might be in generosity. The Ho°. •11tle.
htt
man came from a country that boasted of its second s'g
~ but hey
" Coming eventa cast their shadows before ; ,ble
would for once find himself mistaken in his
predictions—and what was worse, he would discoi '
that his seclusion from the sweets of place and Pensi...°
would be of much longer duration than he anticipated.
r;
He (Sir J. G.) did not think the present the best liPar,
tunity for going in detail through the budget, as each ;
ticular tax would be separately brought before the fnro;!
hut there were one or two topics touched by Hon' Mast:
The "
hers that seemed to require some remark.
principle for which the King's present Ministers, wbeathe
that
ear
the other side of the House, had contended wags
time had arrived when either by the commutation cftasthe
or in some other way, it was indispensible to relieve
re,
suffering classes from burdens, the weight of which roe
vented them from attaining that prosperity which
.A'n rar
of continued peace they had a right to expect. Inretber
tion of that pledge, as soon as they came into cnnee'l
had repealed the duty on coals—an impost inimediattl 0.1
terfering with the success of manufactures in districts °pi
which fuel was not produced. The beneficial effect vil'auad
be to diffuse manufactures generally over the coonttPiale
to give increased employment to the lower orders.•
commutation proposed with regard to cotton had been
fell
sisted ; but if he were not mistaken, the duty °P-'ll,stis
printed cottons, fine or coarse, was 34d. per yard' t
the poor paid vastly more duty than the rich, 00" tchel
because they consumed more cottons, hut becau'e ()di
paid precisely as high a duty on the coarse g° 6,
they wore as the rich upon cottons of a superiot,(Cer
lity. The calculation, therefore, was, that the 0-th
orders paid from forty to sixty cent., while 5
per ot.,
rich slid not contribute more than about five Per
an extraordinary and most unfair disproportion• afb
would not follow the Hon. Member (Mr. Praed)
his ingenious details, as finely woven as cobweb a%)
comfort
er
by which he wished to establish that, under the P,reP-
change, the poor would pay five per cent., and tneariitf
only about one-half per cent., because that of
was at all events an improvement upon the former slat
de
the law. It would not be proper to detain the Wii,,t
farther ; but he was bound to say, iu conclusion, t
at
what had been resolved by Ministers was not incons?te„
with their duty. They had ascertained the impressi°;:e
the House of Commons—they had learnt what virtheY
s; tinient of the representatives of the people, and d
had yielded to it.—(Hear, hear.) The moment that 'oe
had learnt that those representatives were opposed toore
tax, they withdraw it. If there were one sui,ject, sod
t
than another on which it became Ministers frankly be
fairly to yield to the sense of the representatives °is. ueb
people, it was that of a tax to be paid by the 4eople• beo
had been the course even in cases of emerg!ency' 11
Ministers came down with the proposal of a tax "ebithe
they considered absolutely necessary for the service c the
country. Mr. Pitt had set this example, even i° the
plenitude of his power. In 1796 he brought dos° r"
legacy duty, and endeavoured to fix it not only uponpbe
sonal, but. upon real property? What was the result ? rty,
House rejected the proposition as regarded real poirv-srt
although Mr. Pitt had opened it as an indis a'
of his budget. The present Ministers, in anP hone rage
deavour to meet the wishes of the country—to eael-f:r
industry, and to relieve manufactures—had
ward thin plan : if the representatives of the natioo
" You have judged wrongly—you are mistalteo";oi
cannot agree in the change you propose," Alinist'll
bound to submit. They had brought forward thesej fed
mutations, because in their conscience they
that they were necessary for the public good A pot
by the course they had taken, he was sure that they l'a-f the
forfeited the good opinion either of the House or nbel
people. Strange, indeed, would it have been, if
had forfeited the good opinion of the p ',
e
had acquiesced in the sentiments of their
rtpresent'.;" see
This mark of deference was due to the House, and
in no respect inconsistent with the honour of Ifiniste'',ol
Mr. PRAED explained. He had objected to the chso
in the tax on cotton, because it still pressed most 064
on the lower orders.
word el

Mr. K. DOUGLAS would not retract a single • 0110 V
what he had advanced on a former night ; having reset the
tiered the subject, he was prepared to reassert, 63 eety.
proposal for a tax on transfers was founded in digit; re
The Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had addressed
ply to this statement only the worst argument--the
mentum ad hominem ; but it remained to be see°oo of
the people of Cumberland thought of the praP°ltl
Ministers, supported by their representative. The 4itioa
ctllor of the Exchequer proceeded upon the suPP°i oil'
that landed property to the amount of one hundred
egg
lions sterling changed hands in the course of the 'O4
but he (Mr. K. Douglas) was convinced that this 001t1
a peat over calculation ; if it were well-founded, it Woo9t
indted prove that the condition of the country WB9//ighl
distressed. He was not so unworthy a person as the, their
Hon. Baronet represented him, and he had hoped.tlia.;oloo
former acquaintance had led him to form a better or. •
of him. fed
Mr. FERGUSSON agreed that Ministers were had
justified in yielding to the sense of the House. ."eoase
himself felt decidedly opposed to the transfer talc, be tie
he thought it a breach of faith to the public credit°r'd sc;
objected also to the intended tax upon cotton, inle„e.ool'
cording to weight, without regard to value, as it "„fille
be the destruction of much of the property and trade a"
East Indies. Above all, it was necessary that a T;0111"
cotton should be ad valorem, and he iutreated thete ale
Lord (Althorp) to re-consider his proposition. boat
prehended that the impost on passengers by steall);(1 he
would not he so easily collected as was imagined, j
was quite sure that it would be highly oppressive orlvie
tretnely injurious in Scotland, discouraging a o'4 itot,
ficial intercourse between different parts of the e'ulifst;
Mr. T. P. COURTENAY agreed with the .-lbr
Hon. Baronet, that the Bank Restriction Act of 11'„t bat
embarrassed and mystified the finances of the nnuntrthlOr,
could not justify the transfer tax proposed by the 0'
cellor of the Exchequer. It was, in his view, a 'tr°,;g'efie;
jection to it, that it was not imposed upon property Ittto';
rally, but merely upon that which was passing fro ° der
to hand. He denied that the property tax was a Pre4
in point, inasmuch as that affected, generally, eve/ 9Fgete
of property ; and he denied also, that there was anYerojtiti
ment with the stockholder, that there should be 8 s)obed
fund of one per cent. He deeply regretted that the t 001;
been abandoned in the manner the House had wit°: se°;
and he was much mistaken, if it were
followed by other alterations and modifications of tu'of
tha
get. Over and over again, while on a different 'dile
at re
House, the present Ministers had insisted upon grece
ductions of expenditure ; and yet, since they too/cool
they had found that reduction had been carried al(l%,ittc,
its utmost limit.—(No, no, and cheers.)----ne ittel;
that they had done a little in the way of abolishing!),
hut the Duke of Wellington, before he left officer V,
made much gloater sacrifices of patronage, 311 001 Y
abolished many great offices, while his successors 11')
attacked inferior appointments. Adverting to the
cular taxes, as a West-countryman, he heartily tpoi eh
the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer for the re sidtk,
the duty on coal, and he agreed also that the cbange.jede
regard to calico was beneficial. He, however? d:cir,eveo
,
objected to the high duty on Cape wines. 1°
in that proposition would be to ruin an extensive 3ota,
proving trade, and to disappoint the reasonable ,exp inc,
tions of those who had embarked their capital' r'il'e
yards, that the low duty would he continued under ,
of 1829. He implored the Noble Lord to re;.,
(.°;:aP`,,
tax which would have so injurious an e.r,,(inic)',o
a most valuable part of his Majesty's t',4',,y
He approved of the redaction of the „
nr"vr.
French wines, at the same time that it lefe;
have appeared to him the wiser polity to give tlie,iFje, r
ence to the colony at the Cape, which, b. o r(r 0
other claims upon the country, our trade eery n
ceeded our trade with France. As to the tto, thebe
cotton, he could scarcely reconcile that impost of
Professing to encourage the production and industj'reres,
country. He acknowledged, however, that the tjefa
of the tax upon printed cottons gave I • n gre'tns f3cti
.i
tion. Ile was sure that it would give gre it 8.
bt' c
throughout the country, as that tax had always
a"
sidered exceedingly offensive.—(Hear,, hear.) tbq
Mr. SCHONSWAR said that he .was
willing to offer any opposition to the Noble

rue. He was W
at bad pamed a
ber for Durofril
,e4l a very hall
iition of
f a tax_e
rtY Was ound
oPe. MeMber rep!!
ralatina) Colhb!1
a sort of border°,
ce bordering ura
!lt was dioriuieo
kfter accusing the
present 31ini9te
object of congr a
tpit was not veilcecu; se any G°ve'
with dishonoest,),.;
to return to
ow
bto
mull not lo 5
tt himself very s!
to taxe
east prudent
however n
Gentle.
The Hon: • ht:
of its second slg
but
be
I before ;in his on
ifortsble
disco:er
place7e would
and Pengwn
• ted•
n he ant,: cipa
ent the best 0,111:r_
udget, at each roe;
before the fileo,
ied by Ilon'great
mark. The e
Ministers, the
aided was, tirl.at.eg,
mutation or ts-,,e
ble to relieve ri.l,;,
ight of Which Foe
.rrity which h!et __—
''Peet. In rea
they
ne into office', ja.
'mt itomediatti;
res in districts oe3,i
,
leficial effect vin_n.,:d
,r the country', ;be
rover orders' re-
otton had been all
he duty urulthos
d. per yard ; 0011
the rich, P°' thel
but becarr4
goods
the coarFe g
of a superior clu_er
as, that the
r cent., while:ol3e
~
rout five Per oe
sproportioo.
Er. Praed) thr
cobweb can'„ose,l
under the lOrrielt
.nt., and the siity
[se that in'qte
of
the former st:',
detain the P:blit
in conclusion,
as not ineon'!_.„ of
d the impress7o,
trot what w(3l
thrl
people, o 0 thel
moment thatto or
ere opposed
one s& ieet, !ore
Ad
'rioters frankly the
resentatives
)5, the people. 550
emergencYf
of Lich
Iva
.al a tax he
f
the service ° the
topic, even i° the
brought down
not only upon foe
as the result
trded real prop act
n indispensrhletrot'
in an hones
ntry—to eticoll7o'r,
—had brought
fidt
of the nation ',fe
are mistaker-orre
e,"
forward these "re4l
nce they " hod
üblic good ; f
a pot
re that they b'etf Oat
e House or lief
have been, i
thel
)eople because tive
ieir repreeeOtlt
House, and ...,
our of Mini.tebso
jected to the c off
iced most troeq
A of
act a single
- per
; having ree° the
) reassert, 63 OP
• 1 ale
ruled in drs re'
ad addressed ggo
;ument--tbe
ed to be sox °or
the proPu'itichol'
;ative. The o,itiO
pon the stIPP;
f one hundred
course of the has
iced that this
001
,I-founded, it Wooo
country "'e Right
person as the,
tick
,
had hoped.o-•ab L.
jolt)
tin a better or

dinisters Werte 104
House. late
ransfer tat,
hey fie
moblic creditor.,
cotton, iwpose
ot; 0
value, a 9 tt the
.rty and trade 00
ssary that a ttellP
utreated the
Øe ov,
iposition. beets
gers by stow- he
•, a o ,
s imagined, jet
' oppressive stnbetie
'aging a no'
its of the c'tß,ei
d with the nr,lol`
in Act of 177' bol
of the count bas'
losed by the Olt
is VieW, a'tr°- Ole
ipon property g wee
passing frorxel,ede,o;
tax was a Pr „eel"
orally, everY:iroge#
ere was anY
should be 8 °I • 10
tad that the 00'0
° e,l;
,use had W;t o t eO,O
it were °°,:
°
ications of Pe f Ole
different side
„oit r
fisted upon gr IV"
ce they too'.
_.OO
carried ids' ioe.o
:s. )
-11 e iniTilete;
)f abolishing P
an ce, 13°,
tfi
he left 0 ci
itronage, o 01)
sueeeisorslt! 00:t41
sling to n-D;tiv.ei
le heartily
for the rP-03t°
fiael
t a.tthe ehonjoilf
dge.ee' ere
however, ..ev
'nes• 0.
extensive xpe, ,
seasonable e via t
r capita('iotiie
inued under ijer
ord to re-°°"9dF
•
US an erect
tjesty's 0. 1,1
of the d 0
,1
, ,fe,r
e that ,it
give te.rdeo
tv,o•i; IP e%;
trade very flit
the taN "?:-h) tbehe
t ts"'" ft'
imP"s/„strY °va
and ito.-
that tie otierott
hilt gre=.. fact,'
gre it 631)%,iset,
always
hear.)
'as Lorj,
Nob!,

24110 r of the Exchequer ; but whilst he was by no
"satisfied with all the measures which the plan at
Prtsett,
'which "'fore the House comprehended, yet the one
kt he most condemned was that which affected Canada.
lutt:,_7lchesnes had been submitted to the House for the
of l of relieving this overloaded country of a portion
beh-erceseive population, and it was with much regret
4441 a measure proposed, which (by diminishing the
t "f vessels coming loaded with timber from Canada,
pr,fetiirtaing with pa'ssengers on low terms,) would
he feared, a serious check to etnigration.—(Hear.)
h~Ort! ROWICK should not go into the subject of the
Ohtransfers, as that project had been abandoned by
chti 'ajesty's Ministers, and therefore did not see any ne-
h tItY for his then undertaking its defence.—(ilear.)—
(1144;°a• Agent for the Cape of Good Hope had certainly
ht, 'led his duty to that colony with much ability. If
eqrati Rowick) could think that the proposed duty
feel v Pr"e injurious to that important colony, he would
itili,ZrY great difficulty and hesitation in consenting; to its
tfereitiati. He believed, indeed, that its effect, like hat
'hock ry
change affecting commerce, would be a temporary
deoitttoht,he wine-growers of the Cape ; but. he was
icon.
• a, it would produce no permanent injury to t ue.m.
bee- te'red, from the statement of a gentleman who had
tft4-tir out fur the purpose of observing the condition
144: several interests at the Cape, that the wine trade
by far a worse condition than any other class. It
Cis;l, seent to him desirable to maintain by a tax a strug-
tkz; tr'elo of trade, which could not exist without that
tats o:it' it not much better to check it at once, and to
ttirs-C caPital employed in it into more productive chani
ta„."--(Rear, hear.) That capital had long ago reached
tht ma (Hear,
of profit which it could attain, except by
tittitdUlteratiOn of other wines.—(llear.) He did not
onettioal by
any one could suppose it was right to uphold
let "Y the poisoning of his Majesty's stihjects.—(Hear.)
tl,!ine bottle of Cape wine sold as such (as we u.nderstciod
upa 415 Lord), there were twenty disposed of making
tkkti4, juferior article, under the name of other wines. The
IStti,ati(lns of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite.F re.
lii4tirilg the difference between our trade with
contrary
the 0! With the Cape of Good Hope, proved the
ea Inference which that Right Hon. Gentlemanhad
'44,,frorn it. If any thing could, more than another,
itter,"'e injuriousness of the policy which discouraged the
1110 -°L,ll4e between these two great neighbouring coon-
''et'„,,,ranne and England—(Hear, hear)—it was the
thit,-"Lch the Right Hon. Gentleman had announced,
tlikp if', 341E111 and distant a colony traded more with us
-rtiaace•—(Hear.) Nothing could more please him
is°4l"°wick) than the equalization of the duties
.on
o re,: Re looked upon it as the earnest of a better. policy
'S ataire, and he was sure that France would imitate. the
helturtiPle• If France would follow up what the Minister
%p done, so as to free the commerce between the two
kalt.t'es from illiberal restraints, he was sure that our
with France would as much exceed that with the
NPte'rets at present our trade with the colony exceeded
°craof ''rance.— (Hear, hear.) With respect to the tax
oho e°tton, he thought that his Hon. Friend opposite
4111. that evening manifested so much eloquence and
'Nt" being the firstg time he addressed the House, had
in'triate mistake. He assured his Hon. and Learned
~441-;
,that he had heard his speech with great pleasure,
that '';''oPed that he would now have the honour to renew
tpe
c'titittEtey ; but he (Mr. Praod) had forgotten
1141'41 respecting the duty on raw cotton. The
lett f„°ad been reduced not only on printed cottons,
tit it ell kinds of manufactured cottons. And if
th4l
'anourable Friend would consider the subjesubjectta,4',ohe would find that the balance of advert-
late be derived from that reduction was greatly in
or the poorer classes. But the tax per pound upon
cotton would be found to fall in a great measure
latiribe richer classes of cousumers, when it was coml.
hautv ninth cotton is employed in manufactures used
,Ltto-y them, in some of which the tax could reach the
os4 41y by weight, and in the raw state. He instanced
%t f with silk, and
u dctures in which cotton is mixed
ktt'l'he of which is confined to the more wealthy. There-
Stl";,,e,tdx, which load been removed from the fabrics
pot -"'Y by the poor, was transferred to those which the
°tat °ever used.—(Hear.)—He considered that much
itkts„rthati to have maintained the oppressive and partial
i"tta-t which it was substituted. Another objection had
,411:11a.ade on the subject of East India cottons,; but that
l'tfe,"°i trade was under the same relative advantages as
l'i.t.s'nelPecially when it was considered that a very small
!ti°-,.°f India cottons was re-exported.
'prtir.'OULBURN should confine himself to the simple
1514 .7°4 of his satisfaction at the announcement of the
t'kp "rd's intention to abandon the proposed duty on
)-11e thought it lainent dole that the.
tetrh,4lent should. have so much weakened itself, as it
r°y-ve done by 'proposing a measure calculated to de-
Ir,S; „t,he confidence of the public creditor. His regret
4.olaNlaon noed by the line of conduct taken by the Noble
me announcing his changed intention.—.(Hear.)—
h:O., L'," to assure the Noble Lord that he did not think
y"nated by any dishonourable intentions towards the
eide creditor.—(Hear. )—ldut the Right Hon. Baronet,
Veh'pthe Noble Lord, had not disclaimed for himself
tf .e •He defended the imposition of the tax
t.tlilt.rY different grcunds. He defended the injustice
hllaPost, because injustice had been done on other
ti' iti
venal Because Because injustice had been done in the
ulteratio a of the currency, the Right Honour-
igs
es °et thought whatever injustice might now be
Itti arot
the same sufferers was justifiable by that prece-
r tht e Would not go into a discussion with the
gpeY ion °n. Baronet respecting the alteration of cur-
'797, nor the return to cash payments in
.1819.
:4 I
the Right Hon Baronet dwelt on the injustice
IZtlith."ttai:_are! of 1797. and 1819, lie Mr. Goulburn)
h kti Right Hon. Baronet would have been the last
ilteW ;that House to advocate similar injustice. When
4es) 14 his own mind, the consequences of the 'llea-
e,t, wk..
'ty of ""-h he load referred, he would perceive the ne•
;f,43,. refraining from injustice of so destructive a ten-
a,.1.419 a:l,,lat there was a peat difference between the Act
the " the tax upon transfer. The return to cash
( "°'° written as clearly in the contract between
ttaltie..).lla.tlad its creditor asi the tax was forbidden.—
sahe 4e48
the
greed with the lon. Baronet that the time
4 4 thei oe measures of the Noble Lord would be,
r details were brought before the House ; but
pr "'t tl e, observation. He sp-
otaPsaof th toalce one general
. Principle of taking off. taxes which pressed
tt,eth4,s"wlitioterests that were suffering, and laying them
t
101 were more equal to the hurthen. u
rkhtha t which had been made already that evening
rut tqC•(aftel73' do press equally on the poor and
.upon the
huk e 1%)--That was the whole tenour of the speech
vtlt red on. Gentleman, which haul been so justly
they °n"Y the Noble Lord. He had said that the
raw mitt
ttli,,a'Nobt nu would press upon the poor ; on which
%ak'm in remarked, that the gentleman had
paid the :'8
,1 argument respecting raw cottons, be-
-0 th sty of printed cottons would principally be
th e rieh
thtt e raw • But was it not the fact that the duty
s at)).
ttntaterial would press mostly on the poor ?
.Was
thekt the atetial, a tax on which would more extensively
tloth,'omforts and necessaries of the poor ? Much of
~orlati 14a of
Del el„.„ .the men was mottle from it, as well as the
ire- tear, V`rung of their children and their wives, who
t,l',rt,4-tlieeetlY a garment of any other material. But the
it mkt"' to the Noble Lord's plan was, that, whe-
a4etned,4"l Prove successful or not in relieving the poor,
`f th~r It wlcest,
htoombee,extremely anti-colonial.—(Hear,
hat,"ta "Id seem, that whilst relieving the distress
had the Ministers were forgetful of
t,tieteed Jti'te at home,
An lion. Gentleman
t'l)c) that :el House (and he had no doubt that it was
,tetnnlitr'lto;lefrduties on cotton would act as a.probibition
lop of "n 1 India, a country, efforts to improve the
tf,Owhich the happiness, and extend the civiliza-
tlt,l4, 1, ell were Persevered in, at much expense and
d thetea. Y those i
It , n whose hands, its government
.was
Cs,e a" been said that one trade of the colony
IN' 04 °f Good Hope would be ruined by the
totit" winee ; upon which the Noble Lord al-
tr:4thstressed condition of that trade as a reason
,tet'ti'iorie:titog his burthens.—(Hear, hear hear.) B, ut
tot ,ue effected by the Noble Lord's plans NN ere
eua,tl4l4,la "ttned to India and the Cape, lout would extend
11,4 t ttissi:(Rear)—hy encouraging the timber of other
fat /ties
the prejudice of that colony. He was sure
I,il44,ll'lolllltreriet,ld give considerable dissatisfaction.
that another great objection to the Noble Lord's
/Vitt k'a Of did not comprehend any provision for the re-
NtsProaide",e national deist, and that no surplus revenue
Oari,e," should any occasion or extraordinary ex-
hcal e "fore the end of the Tar An lion. Gentle-
thtitt,entpiNilained that he 'SI G.) load not left a suti-
eh4"e ad Qt the close of tl(ipellpare's,%,y.le.nar,:, butt the fact was
tT.t,llee tahle I.lic.llit was made
4,esipi mOO/. be, at the close of 18'30, a surplus.
tilresq te, that heknear.) He had entered office with the
t,,ter,aa hy „al"puld always adhere to the resolution
'` 'louse in to the effect that the Mi-
't t iva.,3 r ‘•
th.‘4,. a 00, eseive. a surplus revenue of. three
Cti:;',ly4,4
ceuthe. line of incurring a d.ebt, Incase
a,t410, hao "ea_ rring for reased expenditure. He,
a,u'r 'collated, that at the end of 1830 he should
Puttat zttP,l," °f 2,600,0001. He load told the House,
i;Nt lat,tat titZue end of 1831, he might not have a sur-
-4 .tilltatevvaioL‘soolalt:t but t ltieitneexp;ected to have additional
firstly, from the reduc-
per emu., which would have les,ened

the expenditure by 700,0001.; and secondly, he expected
an increase of revenue from the increased consumptinn of
malt ; and a similar result, from the increase of other kinds.
of consumption; and he stated what was mere important,
that if the members of the late Government had remained
in their :laces—(A laugh)—they would be able to offer
reductions to the amount of 500,000/.—(lear. hear)—
and when an objection was made by the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet opposite, who was then on the side in which he
(Mr. G.) now stood, he (Mr. G.) replied, that if his cal-
culations did not prove to be correct, the House would be
called on to reconsider the subject.—(Hear.)—He thought
that, in estimating the effect of the proposed reductions.
the Noble Lord had gone far beyond what any experience
of the past could justify, and, he feared, far beyond what
would be justified by the result, especially shou'd there
arise, as seemed possible, an additional charge, for which
the Noble Lord had made no provision.—(No, no.)

Sir JAMES GRAHAM hail not referred to past in-
stances of injustice for precedent+ to support additional in-
justice.—( Hear.)—He had said that he considered the
transfer tax a just one and defensible, with respect to the
funds, on the same principle as the property tax bad been
extended to them. But, at the same time that he did
contend that the tax on transfers was just, lie said, that
although injustice had been heaped on debtor and creditor
from 1797 to 1819, and since—(llear)—yet, as long as
he had the honour of holding a place in his Majesty's
Councils he would not countenance any measure, of the
justice of which he was not fully convinced.--(Hear.)
Sir T. ACLAND, after a few remarks, we understood
was far better pleased to receive the surrender of the trans-
fer t ex from the hands of the Ministers as a boon than to
have it wrested from them by a division. With respect
to the reductions which the Noble Lord had proposed, he
considered that everything which had been said concern-
ing them tended to prove, that, however they might
be misrepresented by some persons out of that
House, never did more cordial pleasure thrill
through the breasts of its Members, than when they
could, consistently with the gaiety of the country and the
maintenance of the institutions, relieve any portion of the
distresses of the people. He had been particularly
grieved to hear it said that the shipping interest would be
injuriously affected by the measures of the Noble Lord,
from which he was sure the shipping would find increased
employment through the improvement that would ensue
in the coasting trade. He considered that the mode chosen
for levying a tax upon steam-boats in the shape a of poll-
tax upon the passengers—(Hear)—was taking an ex-
tremely incorrect and obnoxious mode of collecting it—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—A tax upon the tonnage of those
vessels would be much more just, convenient, and satis-
factory.—(Hear.) As to the duties on timber, he thought
they ought to be so regulated as to render the measure-
ment of that article equitable.
Mr. RICE contended that the Government had, with
reference to the proposed transfer duties, now abandoned,
reasoned quite historically. There could not be a greater
error than to suppose that they thought for a moment of
being themselves unjust in the imposition of the tax : still
less that they attempted to justify such supposed injustice
by the supposed injustice of their predecessors. Such
conduct would be as opposite to their general principles as
to the particular 1 art in the case under consideration. As
the tax had now been abandoned, he should not dwell
upon it any further than to say, that any breach of faith
upon the public creditor was as far from the minds of the
Ministers of the Crown as any idea could be. On the de-
termination to maintain inviolate the faith of the Govern-
ment with the creditor of the State, there was amongst
Viem no second opinion ; and with reference to what had
fallen from the lion. Gentlemen opposite, lie must be per-
mitted to say that not one of the Government dissented
from the principles they laid down ; but let it not go forth
to the public that there ever had been, under any circum-
stances, a declared intention on the part of his Majesty's
Government to violate the solemn engagements of the
country. On the part of his Right Hon. Friend (the
Member for Armagh) he could not help saying, that it
was rather uncandid in him to refer to the surplus of 1830
—the present Government were not dealing with that,
they bad to deal with the possible surplus of 1831. He
was perfectly ready to admit that the ascertained surplus
of 900,0001. was not within their reach ; neither, with a
contemplated surplus of that amount, could he look to the
strong probability of their having an actual surplus of
2,900,000/. The present Government did not attempt to
say that they could reckon upon a surplus of more than
300,0001. ; what, in fact, it might turn out to be, time
alone could determine ; but the advisers of the Crown had
at least the satisfaction of knowing as well as the Right
Hon. Gentleman that the resources of the country were not
impaired, and th t they had the best grounds for calculating
that they would he enabled to develope new sources ; and
he would not ask his Right Hon. Friend if the present
Government have not those resources as much at their
command as the late Administration—(Hear)—and refer-
ring to the surplus estimated, he thought he had a right
to anticipate for his friends near him a more enlarged sur-
plus than even that which had been attained by the former
Administration ; and he begged the House to recollect that
the surplus of the present Government was achieved by re-
duction, and, therefore, he hoped more grateful to the
country and more acceptable to the House than the surplus
of any firmer Government. It hal been affirmed on the
other side of the House that the whole scheme of his Noble
Friend was anti-colonial—it was no such thing—he de-
nied the fact. As to the charge of their dealing ungene-
rously with the colonists at the Cape of Good Hope, he
had thus much to observe, that nothing could be more un-
founded than the idea that they proposed to put an end to
the introduction of Cape wine because that manufacture
was decaying—no such thing, they protected it for a time,
and finding that protection unavailing they gave it up ; it
was quite a misrepresentation of his Right Hon. Friend's
argument to describe it as a charge against the Govern-
ment of abandoning a manufacture because it was in a
state of decay. That argument was, that the benevolence
of former Governments had failed in producing the good
intended. There was benevolence, but it was not a wise
benevolence : hence, then, they gave up what was no
longer useful, and they threw their arms wide open to the
products of a country, the nearest, and one that ought
to be the most friendly in Europe. The measure to which
he refereed was one step in the march of commercial
legislation, saying to neighbouring States, you may do
right or wrong, but your errors shall form no example to
us—we shall continue to assert and to act upon the prin-
ciple of justice and enlightened legislation. On the sub-
ject of the timber trade of Canada, respecting which so
many observations had been made, he requested Hon.
Members to look to the state of that part of Canada where
the timber trade chiefly prevailed, and they would find that
the condition and manners of the people were anything
but in a satisfactory state. So much fur the present state
of that colony. Let it now be seen what effect a change
of system might produce. It was also important to bear
in mind that much timber came from Canada, which, in
fact, was not American timber. It was largely shipped
from the Baltic, and, having arrived in Canada, it acquired
the character and privileges of Canadian timber, and that
was a species of fraud which ought and would be put an
end to by the duty in future to be imposed. If he might
so far separate himself from official connection, and speak
as a mere Member of Parliament, he should congratulate
his own country on the statement of his Noble Friend.
He should not compare the present with the passed budgets
else he might, by the use of the shadows they supplied,
make the relief stronger. By the present budget consi-
derable assistance was given to the Irish manufactures.
One of the changes proposed would, for example, enable
the distillers of Belfast to compete with their North British
rivals. He defended the original proposition respecting
both glass and tobacco; but at the same time observed,
that his Majesty's Government had exercised a sound dis-
cretion in withdi awing those which did not prove palate-
able to Parliament. That House was the proper place for
submitting measures of taxation, for the purpose of hear •
ing from Hon. Gentlemen what their views were upon
each distinct proposition, and having them modified ac-
cording as circumstances might render necessary. He de-
nied that any want of attention to the condition of the
country was betrayed ; on the contrary, every disposition
he would maintain, had been sliewn to minister to the
wants and improve the condition of the people.
Mr. NORTH began by observing upon the gross in-
consistency which there was in the Noble Lord's affirming
at one time that he would rather risk a civil war than
adopt a single toe enure in the slightest degree calculated to
endanger the union between England and Ireland, and
coming forward, within a few days, with a tax upon steam
boat passengers. He knew there were some Hon. Members
of,that House who looked with satisfaction upon a prohibi-
tion which should have the effect of excluding Irish la-
bourers from this country; but he begged to be allowed
to tell those Hon. Gentlemen that such satisfaction was
absurd and pi eposterous. The harvest which those poor
men came over to reap was too valuable to admit of their
being retained by any such consideration as so small a
tax. They might be assured that those poor men, in
spite of ail such obstacles, would still find their way
across the Channel. Besides, those poor men would feel
it as a grievance, and what was not always tl.e ease with
Irish grievances, it would be a severe and substantial
grievance. Then canes the newspaper tax. But a few
months ago the utmost aversion was manifested to au
equalization and assimilation of the duties on newspapers
in England and Ireland, depriving the Irish newspapers of
the comparative advantage they bad before possessed.

The measure of the Noble Lord in the present year would
have precisely the same effect that he so loudly deprecated
last year.—(Cries of " No, no.")—There could be no
doubt that the condition of Irish newspaper proprietors
would now be much worse than it had been. He sincerely
rejoiced at the withdrawal of the transfer duties ; and
he should certainly have looked upOn the proposed
duty in the light of a violation of public faith, had it
,not been for the explanation afforded from the other
side. It certainly would have been as gross a vio-
lation of public faith as ever had been committed. And
how did the Noble Lord and his Right Hon. Friends de-
fend it ? They said, "We are now doing a wrong, be-
cause others before us have done the same;" but all that
had been denied or explained away by the Right Hon. Bart.
and the Hon. Member for Limerick ; but as it stood ori-
einally, there could not be imagined a more evident in-
fraction of a contract than that involved in the tax of the
Noble Lord. In a contract so obvious, could their dis-
regard of it be so remarkable, or their inadvertence so
great, as that they could not perceive what any plain man
would take to be the plain meaning of plain words ? But
it was very unimportant to the public whether what they
did was the result of deliberate intention or of ignorance—
the effect was exactly the same. Tke Right Hon. Baronet,
on the other side, had so entirely misconceived the nature
of the question, as to suppose that the intended transfer
duty was not in direct violation of the express words of an
Act of Parliament. No doubt it was a matter of frequent
occurrence that Statutes should be altered or repealed ;
but the difference between the case of a repeal and the
breach of a contract was just this, that in the latter the
Parliament was acting not alone in its legislative capacity,
but in the situation of a party to a contract, and one
wherein it had received a consideration.—(Hear.) It was
a binding—a contract—and nothing but a contract, and
was so understood by the parties, and was testified by
the Honourable Member for London, sifter the experience
of more than a quarter of a century. These were facts
which no declamation could set aside. Thu only way of
getting rid of the obstacles to that duty which those Acts
presented was furnished by following the example of one
of the characters in the Tale of a Tub. There the- will
of the father, under which the three brothers derived,
prohibited the use of any fantastical ornaments; they were
bound to wear a plain coat; however, when shoulder knots
became the fashion, they looked in the will, and found no
express restriction, then came gold lace, and the same re-
sult followed ; hut, at length, they deshed silver fringe,
and in the 25th section—the same, be it observed, that
the imposers of the tax had to deal with—(A laugh)_
the 25th section was as follows:—." I do hereby strictly
command, under heavy penalties, that no silver fringe be
attached," &e. That was too clear and manifest to
be mistaken, and it was found that the only safe course
was to lock up the will in a strong box. Now, whenever
the Ministers of the Crown contemplated a violation of
public faith, all they had to do was to lock up the st.tutes
in a strong IJOX.—(Hear, and laughter.) But now they
were told that this measure of a transfer duty was to be
abandoned. But it was important that the abandonment
should be understood to have been made out of respect for
national faith ; for, if given up upon any other ground, it
would bring with it its own punishment ; for Government
would in future be powerless and impotent to contract fur-
ther debts. He, therefore, as well as for other reasons,
felt bound to require at the hands of the Government a
distinct recognition of the principle upon which the mea-
sure was relinquished—namely, the necessity of being
bound by contracts as between the State and the public
creditor.—(A laugh.)

Mr. CHARLES GRANT said it was rather unfortunate
that the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
not been delivered that evening before the intention of his
Noble Friend had been announced to the House. It was
a very good speech, but it obviously Was intended to form
part of a debate that was expected, but, unfortunately for
the speaker, (lid not take place. The speech was too late,
and besides there could be no speech less calculated, though
without any intention on the part of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, to excite feelings which no true pa-
triot would desire to see called into activity. He would
not certainly follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
through the whole course of his observations, but he must
take the liberty of complaining of the something mote
than insinuations which he threw out against the candour
and honesty of his Noble Friend, when every other gentle-
man who took part in the debate bore testimony to that
candour and honesty in the warmest terms—there was not
a man in or out of the House who, speaking of the sub-
ject, did not express the fullest confidence in that candour
and integrity. Something had been said of declamation
—how far the speech they had just heard should or should
not he considered altogether declamation. As to w hat
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said about a viola-
tion of public faith, he thought he had a right to complain
of the insinuation so conveyed, and he did so, " more in
sorrow than in anger." The present Government never
contemplated any proceeding that could be justly open
to the charge of being a breach of public faith. The
budget was laid before Parliament, and all such state-
ments were, for the purpose of ascertaining the sense of
the House, and of obtaining information from various
quarters. It was the duty of Government to propose
what it thought to be right, and submit to the judgment
of the House as to the expediency or inexpediency of
adopting such propositions. It was the duty of the Go-
vernment to observe the impression made upon the House
and the country ; he therefore trusted that, by pursuing
that course, they had entitled themselves to the approba-
tion of both. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
addressed himself to two particular topics ; the first of
these was the steam passengers' tax. If he believed that
the English Government were insensible to the miseries of
the people of Ireland he was most grievously mistaken.
He certainly had hoped not to hear from that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman a charge against the Members of that
House for indifference to the wants and feelings of the
people of Ireland. How often, and to his knowledge,
had Committees oftlhat House sat day after day, in-
quiring'into the C't ndition of the peasantry of Ireland,
and making themselves acquainted with the daily life
and ordinary habits of that people. He therefore
repelled the accusation, and he trusted that the Irish
people would not believe it, in the face of the
strong manner in which the English Members of that
House had manifected their sympathy with the sufferings
of the Irish people.—(Cries of " No, no !" from O'Gor-
man Mahon, which was replied to by repeated cheers from
rations harts of the House ; the Hon. Member for Clare,
however, repeated his denial.) He confessed he was sorry
to see the sentiments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
re-echoed from that (the ministerial) side of the House :
and he did hope that, notwithstanding the unfavourable in-
terpretation put upon their conduct by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite, the House would bear them
out in the assertions that they had clone nothing to serve
one country at the expense of the other. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had told them that last year it was
proposed to raise the Irish newspaper stamps ; but why
could he not have left that question as it was? The pre-
sent Government had not so much as alluded to that mea-
sure. On the contrary, they had preserved a most reli-
lions silence with respect to it. Why, then, had the
Hon and Learned Gentleman, in the warmth of his not
declamation—(A .lam,h)—raked up this matter? Why,
after working on the feelings of the Irish against the pre-
sent Government, had he forbade them flying for refuge to
the last Government ?—(Laughter, and cheers.) The
• last Government would hays actually increased that duty ;
the present Government, on the contrary, left it as it was.
Where, then, was the complaint? Where was the dissa-
tisfaction? But he supposed that here they were to find
the reciprocity of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—(A
laugh)—for his complaint was not that the Government
was going to raise the Irish duty, nor even that it was
going to equalize the duties.
Mr. NORTH explained.
Mr. ROBINSON next addressed the House, but owing
to the great disturbance iu the House it was impossible to
catch his observations with any clearness. In his opinion,
the Noble Lord proposed to hazard the interests of the
Cape of Good Hope and Canada, without making sure of
reaping any advantage from France or Norway, whose
commerce they were benefitting. Had France shown the
slightest disposition towards reciprocity since we had with-
drawn a portion of the duty on their wine? Had she not,
on the contrary, persevered most resolutely in her former
rule of commerce? He, therefore, contended that this
country would do better to remain in its present situation
till France manifested a disposition to reciprocate with us.
--(Loud coughing and talking.)—lf he was not to heard,
after all the declamation that had been delivered that
the Hon.
0 11f letr hnebe isry fur
night, he would assert his privilege, and move the adjourn-
inlie thought
his d
defence
adjourn-
ment of theuieh
debate.
:)
a
Limerick (ML.. n
Lord's statement ; for his argument seemed to be, that
they ought to abandon the colonies in their difficulties,
and trust to the chance of other countries.—(No, no.)—
At present the kingdom of Portugal took our manufac-
tures to the amount of two millions sterling, at a duty of
15 per cent. less than the manufactures of any other
country ; that kingdom also took from Newfoundland a
I irge poi tion of the fish which was the staple commodity
of that colony. Now he would ask, was it not likely that
Portugal, in answer to the proposed alteration of the
Noble Lord, would assimilate the duties on these imposts?
He should therefore take an opportunity in the Committee
to combat the proposed alteration on wines and timber ;
and he would now conclude by asking the Noble Lord a

question ; namely, was it true fiat the boundary
question between the United States and the English pos-
sessions in North America had been settled by the King
of Holland ; and if so, how aeon was the public to be
made aware of the decision ?

Mr. W. DUNCOMBE agreed with the Right lieu.
Gentleman (Mr. C. Grant) that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. North) was a day after the fair in his
speech. If, indeed, the Noble Lord had persisted in his
measure with respect to the transfer of stock, the speech
would have done ; but that Noble Lord having, with the
manliness and consistency which belonged to his character,
abandoned the scheme, he could not help thinking that the
lion. and Learned Gentleman (notwithstanding his speech
was prepared beforehand) might have abstained.—(Hear.)
With respect to the repeal of the tax upon coals, he thought
that it would be found of great advantage to the country at
large, and particularly to those who were connected with
the coast of Yorkshire. The principle by which the Noble
Lord had declared himself to be actuated was, that of re-
moving taxation as much as passible front the productive
industry of the country. A better principle than that was
never laid down : and what the Noble Lord had done was
good—it was only to be wished that he could have gone
further. In particular, it was very desirable that the tax
on soap should have been lowered, as it was of great im-
portance to the lower classes, both as regarded their clean-
liness and their health. When the Right lion. Gentleman
(Mr. C. Grant) had stated that English Members felt
sympathy for the affairs of Ireland, he (Mr. Duncombe)
had:heen surprised to hear that denied by the Hun. Member
for Clare (O'Gorman Mahon). He could, however, assure
that lion. Gentleman, that he would never lend himself,
directly or indirectly, to that measure which must be pre-
judicial to the interests of the nation, and be disadvantageous
to the welfare of both countries. He did not apprehend
that such a measure could ever succeed; but he would join
the Noble Lord in his observation of a former evening, that
he would rather have the dreadful alternative of a civil war
than submit to so fatal a dismemberment of the empire.
O'GORMAN MAHON said, that called upon as he
had been by the lion. Member for Yorkshire, he could
not refrain from addressing the limise. He thanked that
Hon: Member for the sympathy he had professed for that
country of which he (O'Gorman Mahon) was the repro-
sentative.—(A laugh.)—The Noble Lord, however, had
declared that he would resort to civil war, which ea--
slimly was not a mode of diction most complimentary to
Persons in his situation, when they were expecting sym-
pathy far their country. Ile was delighted with what
had fallen from the Floe. and Learned Member for Drog-
heda (Mr. North), because he had shown the injustice of
the proposed tax on poor Irish labourers cooling over to
this country in steam-boats, for such was the object of
this tax of half-a-crown a head on every person who tra-
velled in those conveyances above a certain number of
mites. Now he did not suppose that many Hon. Mem-
bers were aware of the geographical position of Ireland,
so far as to know that this tax implicated the Irish
labourers.—(A laugh.)—He did not know why there
should be a laugh at that, for it was not so very long ago
that the Lord High Chancellor had told them in that
House that he was able to look round and see many who
could not count five on their fingers. Why, then, should
not he (O'Gorman Mahon) suppose that the particular
geographical situation of Ireland was unknown co same
Hon. Gentlemen?—(Cries of " Oh, oh !")—He thanked
them for their " Oh !" It was just with that same cry
that Lord Brougham's observation had been received
and he therefore felt highly complimented at being received
in the same manner. Another reason why he was
pleased with the speech of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Drogheda was, that it declared him to
be a staunch anti-Unionist.—(A laugh.)—Never again
could the Hon. and Learned Gentleman raise his voice
against the repeal of the Union ; never again could he be a
supporter of the Bible Society—so abhorred by Ireland.
He had in the early part of the evening listened to the
cheer which had followed the statement of the Secretary
for Ireland, when he declared that no compromise had
taken place with respect to the legal proceedings that had
been instituted there. lie was glad to hear that no com-
promise had taken place, for he should have been sorry to
see any Government descend to a compromise of any kind.
—(Hear, hear.)—At the same time lie congratulated the
men on the other tide of the water on their having re-
turned a plea of guilty, for it was their only resoarce.—
(Cheers and laughter.)--He expected another cheer when
he finished his sentence. He said that they had no other
resource—being prosecuted under a penal Act, which had
been designated by the now Ministerial side of that House,
by the present Lord High Chancellor, and by the present
Premier, as bad, penal, unjust, and unconstitutional:
they had no other resource, for they had to deal with a
Jury not chosen by the people, but picked out by the
Sheriff, how he pleased and where lie pleased—(Cries of
" No, no !")—this Jury, too, to be backed with the
declaration of the Noble Lord, that though Mr. O'Con-
nell's speeches always began by recommending peace, they
ended with what would bring rebellion and sedition.
Under these circumstances, he again said, that
they had only to enter their plea cif guilty, for
they could expect no justice after such a declaration,
z.r.tl with a Jury who would not give them fair
play.—(Cries of " Question.")—Gentlemen had
spoken of the East and West Indies, and there had been
no cry of question—they had spoken of the difference be-
tween a halfpenny and a penny, and there had been no
cry of question--why, then, was question to be called
when he spoke of Ireland—a country that they called their
sister, and professed to wish still to be united with? The
Mon. Gentleman then concluded by observing, that the
growth of tobacco in Ireland ought to have full justice al-
lowed it, for if its seed was to be taxed before it was put
into the ground, as the produce of the seed was pounced
upon by the parson to support a church which might be
considered a blessing here, but which was called a curse in
Ireland, it would be in vain to hope that the growth would
prosper.
Mr. ATTWOOD contended that the Noble Lord might
have proceeded with his tax on the transfer of stock with-
out any rupture of the public faith. The only question
was, whether it was just to put a tax upon funded pro-
perty which was common to all the other property of the
country ; and he would ask whether there was any other
property in this country that could be transferred with-
out paying duty ? In fact, the stamp duty, which was
a most important portion of the revenue, chiefly arose
from the transfer of property ; and why should not the
funds be available in their due proportion for an object
which acted as their own protection ?—(Hear.) The Right
lion. Baronet below him (Sir R. Peel) had spoken at great
length on this tax being a. violation. of the national faith, but
ttlihieoanltisal
idoofbuefsaeein.t
faith
i other viola-
tions sanctioned by
Ilme'Vnuhtcelon' on this
flagranttßolilc awv sheinapaned by the House,
which repeated and reiterated the injustice of the Restric-
tion Act of 1797, and carried it to its full extent, the
Right Hon. Baronet quite forgot the national faiih. He
then said not one word on the subject. The alteration
that it made in:all money contracts was great, and was ad-
mitted at the time to be at least live per per cent. The
difficulties it caused could not be estimated ; but with the
knowledge of those difficulties--which were admitted by
Mr. Ricardo, who acknowledged that he had under-esti-
nis,ted the depreciation : and were also admitted by the
lion. Member for Darsetshire, who had taken part in pro-
moting that measure, to have been very great, the altera-
tion2o s
beingoj at first t
.o pe
stated
rcent.,
at
t 4. perr
evencent.,
at a
et:
id
amount afterwards
which
at
teas r evenquite uncertain, but the unfortunate consequences of
which were still in operation—to that measure the Right
lion. Baronet did not make one objection as a violation of
the national faith. Let the Noble Lot d then console
himself, for his measures did not deserve, on that account,
the same amount of condemnation as the measures
which had preceded them, and been sanctioned by the
Right lion. Baronet, who now opposed the measures of
the Noble Lord. Certainly he thought the Noble
Lord's measures, at a period when everything was in
a state of uncertainty, when Europa. was in a diturbed
state, and discontent prevailed in England, were at least
ill-timed. He agreed with them in their desire to main-
tain peace, and wished it to be preserved, if that could be
done with honour ; but it had not been yet discovered that
the best way to maintain peace was to be unprepared for
war. lie trusted that the Ministers, in proclaiming their
desire to preserve peace, and their readiness to preserve it
at ally reasonable saciifice, would not forget what was due
to the honour of the country. He trusted that the Noble
Lord would weigh well the difficulties of the country
abroad, and prepare himself for war, and that the country
would be exhibited to the world in such an attitude as to
dread ito hostility, and be prepared to meet it when it was
necessary to maintain our honour and our security.—
(Hear.) He was sorry to see that the Ministers did not
pursue the wise course of adopting an inquiry into the
difficulties of the country, and the means of removing
them. He was sorry to see them pursuing a course and
introducing measures which, in the present circumstances
of the country, could yield it no benefit, and would pro-
duce a great deal of disappointment and mortification, of
which they would be the victims. The country required
a change of system, and looked for comprehensive mea-
sures ; and the Noble Lord would find himself mistaken
if he supposed that a deduction of 300,0001. from an ex-
penditure of 50,000,000/. would satisfy the country.—
That, too,. was to be attended with a violation of the
national faith or a defalcation of the revenue, and how was
the revenue to be preserved from future defalcations ?

In the first part of the Noble Lord's speech, be spoke as if
he had an abundant Exch--oier, and bad no other object
in view than to relieve the industrious people from their
burdens ; but what a different spectacle did his speech
exhibit at the end ? At first, he took off taxes; but at
the end he put them on. Then the scene was changed,
and he could not but admire the adroitness of the Noble
Lord, which was not surpassed by that of Mr. Pitt, in
finding out and imposing new taxes. What worthless
labour was here ! What industry thrown away ! What
toil, without an object ! What change, without a motive !
A change, too, that could not be completed, that was not
to be completed, and that could only end in mortification;
it could have no beneficial result. The country was
against the change of taxes, and it could not be carried
itvo effect ; it was against any taxes that were to be put
on any part of trade, with which it was the duty of every
Government not rashly to meddle.—(Hear, hear.) Ac-
cording to the information which he had received, all
trade was at a stand._(Hear, bear.) People naturally
suspended their operations till they knew what taxes were
to be taken off, and what put on. The Noble Lord said
he meant to take the tax off glees—did that manufacture,
then, labour under any serious oppression ? He be-
lieved not, nor did lie believe that any immediate benefit
would result from taking off the tax. It was one
of which no individual complained. Glass, it was now
expected, was to be exported in large quantities, but that
would be at a distant period. The stream of prosperity
would not flow quite so fast as as the Right Hon. Mem-
ber, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, supposed.
But the conduct of the Government was to him extraor-
dinary and inconceivable, for it exposed the cotton-manu-
facture to the same disadvantage of which it relieved
g ass. There was already a drawback on glass, and this
was all that could be given to cotton.: The Government
had taken the tax off raw silk, not for 'fiscal purposes, but
to encourage the manufacture, and now they imposed a
tax on cotton, so that one was to be encouraged, and the
other discouraged. Ministers were walking in one eter-
nal round of tilling changes, and were sporting with the
best interests of the community. The Noble Lord had
himself admitted that timber was not a fit object for taxa-
tion, yet he bad increased the tax on timber. Why did lie
do that ? Was it to give employment to our own people ?
The Hon. Member for Bridport, who was an authority on
this subject, did not think it would have any such effect.
He must argue against the political economists, and against
the Hon. Member on another subject. The Hon. Mem-
ber said, that the growths of tobacco ought to be prohi-
bited in Ireland, because it could not be grown without a
bounty; but surely, if it could not be grown without a
bounty, there was no reason for prohibiting it. In his
opinion, it was a strange policy which would not al
low the land and labour of the empire to supply the
home market. Whether it was the result of fiscal regula-
tions, or of any other, the people were not now free to
dispose of their labour and produce. Let them be free to
do that, and much of the present clamour would be done
away ; let, he said, our own markets be opened to the pro-
duce of our land and labour. There remained only one
other tax on which he should say a few words, that was
the tax on steam passage boats. If that tax were imposed
its a time of great emergency, be should protest against it
as a most objectionable tax. It would press with more
severity on an important branch of our industry than any
tax which had been taken off. It was a measure which,
in his opinion, was more hostile to sound policy, in the
present circunotancee, than any which could be conceived.
The art of steam navigation was yet in its infancy, but
there could be no doubt that it was destined to become a
most important branch of the national wealth, and a
powerful arm of war. Hitherto unprotected, but un-
taxed, it had produced those engaged in it little advantage,
and on these accounts it was one of the last things that
ought to be subject to a tax. If any branch of national
industry deserved, on account of its importance, to be en-
couraged by a bounty, steam navigation was that branch ;
and there was scarcely a power in Europe which was not
giving bounties and encouragements to raise its steam
navigation on a par with ours.—(Hear.)—America,
Russia, France, Holland, were all encouraging that art,
and were using all their means to increase this as a
means both of traffic and of war, which made it indis-
peneible that we should keep our steam-boats up to the
highest possible point. The tax would operate most mis-
chievously in narrowing the market for Ireland. He had
been informed by an individual at Liverpool, that he
brought over 80,000 persons from Ireland in one year,
and carried as many as 80,000 back. He knew it was
said to be desirable to keep the Irish out of England, but
while the two countries were united, the Legislature had
no right to obstruct the Irish in bringing their labour to
the English market. There was little demand for it at
home, and there was more here than there, and here they
had a right to come. This was levying a tax on an ob-
ject that ought never to be taxed—it was taxing the
wages of labour—it was taxing the rags and the potatoes
of the poor Irish labourers, and he could describe it in no
other terms than as toe most oppressive tax that ever entered
the head of man. Whom did it affect here ? Why the
humble tradesman and his family, who found pleasure,
amusement, and health, in escaping by these cheap and
easy conveyances from the dense atmosphere and crowded
streets of London. It would be better to invent a tax for
staying in the metropolis—better to find out some plan
for driving away some of the people occasionally, than
invent a tax to make them remain here all the year
round. These were his views. He considered the mea-
sures unworthy of the Noble Lord, and not adapted to the
state of the country. They would find no recommenda-
tion in the public sentiment, none in the desire for
economy and retrenchment ; they were unworthy to meet
the difficulties, and would not secare the support of the
country.—(Hear, hear)
Mr. SHAW could not refrain from making an observa-
tion on what the Member for Clare said of Dublin Juries.
If the Hon. Member for Waterford were in the House, he
would repudiate the sentiments of the Hon. Member for
Clare, for be had frequently expressed his confidence in a
Dublin Jury. Never was there a fairer Jury empanelled
than the Dublin Jury, and the Hon. Member for Chars
had cast improper reflections on the character of men with
whom he was utterly unacquainted.

Mr. HUNT had listened for six hours to the debate,
and five of them had been wasted in the discussion of sub-,
jests that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given up
in the first ten minutes.—(Hear, hear.)—Hon. Menthe's
had probably come down expecting the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would persiq in his plans.—(No, no.)—lle
was ashamed that the time •should be so wasted. The
House had not discussed the plans of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, but the question if the national faith were
preserved or broken. That might be interesting within
that House ; but out of doors the people would have
settled it in five minutes, by the toss up of a halfpenny ;
for the public care nothing about it, It was one
Act of Parliament repealing anothee, and he had al-
ways understood that the Parliament could do what it
pleased, and who was to say it tiny? He had heard that
the House could vote black to be white ; and be remem-
bered when it voted thut a one-pound note that was worth
fourteen shil:ings and a shilling was equal to a guinea that
was worth twenty-seven shillings.-_(A 1 iugh.) He
thought it would be a wise regulation to revise all the
laws as they slid in America, once in seven years; for he
did not know why the last generation should make laws
for this generation, or why we should make laws for pos-
terity. According to the doctrine he had that night heard
every repeal of a law was a breach of national faith, which
was an absurdity, The public would be delighted with
the repeal of the tax on coals, which would show the la-
bouring classes that the House meant to relieve them. The
repeal of the tax on calicoes would be received with plea-
sure for the same reason. The repeal of the duty on
newspapers was also very good. He hoped, however, that
the Government would not persist in levying a duty of a
penny per pound on cotton, which would amount to a tax
of 25 per cent. on low-priced cotton;, and not above one
or two per cent. on high-priced cottons : it would be in-
jurious to the labouring poor, and he hoped that an ad
valorem tax: would be substituted for it. The Hon.
Member expressed himself unfavourable to the repeal of
the duty on the disgusting weed tobacco; and said that
we could not walk the streets without having tobacco
puffed into our faces, nor get into a stage coach without
encountering some whiskered dandy smoking a cigar.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) He was glad that the Noble Lord
had altered this part of his plan. As to the duty on glass,
so
it seemed of no u to the people to take that off, as long
as the tax was left on windows, which would prevent
them using glass. The nibbling away at taxes, however,
would not satisfy the country, though it might that House.
The present Government had pledged itself to retrench-
ment and Reform, but ita retrenchments were not equal
to what had been effected by the late Government, The
late Government repealed the Test and Corporation Act;
it passed the Relief all, which he had always denounced,
because it was accompanied by a measure for disfranchising
the forty-shilling freeholders ; and it had passed the Bill
for giving the people free trade in beer. He thanked the
late Ministers for these measures. Some people said it
was not beneficial ; but in his late excursions through the
un Question, question)—he wished to state that
country—(Question,
effect of this Bill was, in Hampshire and Wiltshire, '
that all the barley was bought up, and the maltsters could
not make malt fast enough to make beer for the people.—
(Hear.)----It was said that the people were injured by these
8i11,,--(Question.)—lf be was not to be beard he should
wove the adjournment before twelve o'clock—he Would

ertainly do hat twelve. He 1 rled that it had promoted
intoxication among the people, and he had seen fewer
drunken people in his late journey than for the last twenty
years. With respect to all the reductions, the country,
he was sure, would not be, and ought not to be, satis-
fied. The Government would be obliged to come to a
graduated property tax, which had b en several times
mentioned and not yet censured by any Member of the
House.—( Hear, hear ! Question, question.)—That wis
the question.—(Order, order.)—With respect to the tax
on steam, it was the first time, he believed, that any lax
had been proposed on machinery; and he hoped and
trusted that it would not be persevered in, fir it would he
a great injury to the people, and in fact, a serious griev-
ance to the working classes. It was necessary to look
abroad--and did the House bhitik these trifling reductions
would satisfy the people ? when at a meeting at Hastings,
a Baronet, and lately a Member of Parliament, had de-
clared that the people would not pay taxes unless their
grievances were redressed.—(Question, question. )—Was
not that the question ? He was determined not to be
coughed down ; and if Hon. Members wished to cough
him down, he would move the adjournment that inst ,nt.
—(No, no--question question.)—" I move, S;r," said
Mr. Hunt, " that this House do now adjoin No, no.)
It I am not to be heard, Hon. Members shall net put isle
down, as I move that this House do now adjourn "
Mr. WARBURTON seconded the motion.—(" No.")
After a few words from Sir JOSEPH YORK E,

Mr. HUNT withdrew his motion for an adjournment.
The Hon. Member was proceeding to resume his Cornier
speech, when he was called to order.
The SPEAKER—The Hen. Member Lad withdr,e.vn
his motion, and he could not speak again on that question
which was before the House.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUNT could assure the House that h. lu l gi eat
pleasure in sitting down.

- Mr. HERRIE-S rose merely to ask the Noble Lord op-
posite for information on a single point. The Noble Lord
had said that a part of his financial plan was to equal'ze
the duties on Portuzuese, Spanish, and other wilies. lie
(lid not mean to make any observations en th,.. fact, hut he
wished to ask what proceedings, if any, had taken pktre
with reference to that treaty between this country and Por-
tugal, which prohibited such an equalization ? He abstained
from the slightest remark on the policy of the step ; but it
had been suggested to him front several quarters, in which
a deep interest was taken with respect to the trade
between this country and Portugal, that it was desirable
to obtain some communication as to the point whether
the provisions of the Methuen treaty, which stipulated
that the same preference should be given to our woollen
goods in Portugal as was given in this country to the Por-
tuguese wines, were to be altogetlr r abandon,d. The
House was well aware that the Methuen treaty, which
was concluded in 1703, refeared almost solely to wines
and woollens. By an article of the treaty concluded with
Portugal iu 1810. the treaty of 1703 was continued " for
the present ;" and it was provided that, at the expiration
of fi'teen years, either party was to be at liberty to revise
the articles of the treaty. It had always been understood
by, the Government of.this country, that at the expiration
of fifteen years after the conclusion of the treaty of 1810
—or in other words, alter 1825—they had the power of
intimating to Portugal that it was their intention to revise
the treaty. What he wished to ask was, v. liether any
steps had been taken to communicate to Portugal the in-
tention of his Maj,sty's Government to adopt, instanter,
the course which the Noble Lord had on Friday evening
described ?

Lord PALMERSTON stated, in answer to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that no steps such as he !sad alluded to
had been taken, bee iuse none were necessary. If the Right
Hon. Gentleman would look inure attentively at the treaty
in question, he would see that such was the fact. By the
treaty of 1703, it was stipulated that Portugal would
thenceforward abstain from prohibiting the introduction
into that country of the woollens of England, on condition
that England would permit the importation of the wines
of Portugal at a third less duty than the wines of other
countries ; provided always, that if England varied in the
duty on the wines, Portugal might do what she liked with
regard to English woollens. The treaty, therefore, left
England free to continue, or not, the preference to the
wines of Portugal ; with the understanding, that if she
did not continue that preference, Portugal might act as she
thought fit with regard to English woollens. The treaty
of 1810 stipulated that she provisions of the treaty of 170:3
as to wines and woollens, should remain unaltered. Un-
altered, therefore, they were ; and the option which the
treaty of 1703 contained was still reset ved. A stilt,
quent article of the treaty of 1810 said, that after the
expiration of fifteen years, it should be competent to
either party to vary or alter the provisions of the
treaty ; but in his (Lord Palmerston's) view of the case,
no alterations were necessary to jnstify the step which
his Noble Friend proposed to take ; because the stipula.
tions of the original treaty gave this country an option on
the subject;
Mr. HERRIES asked whether, then, it was understood
that Portugal was not to receive our woollens ?

Lord PALMERSTON said they might decline them.
Mr. HER RIES observed that they probably would do so.
Mr. ROBINSON wished to know whether the deci-
sion had been completed with resbect to the boundary in
America between our possessions and those of the United
States ; and, if so, whether there was any objection to the
production of that decision.

- Lord PALMERSTON (as we understood the N(,ble
Lord) answered, that the decision had been come to, and
was on its way to the President of the United States ; and
that there was no objection to its production.
The resolutions of the Committee we: e then agreed to.