The Sun.
London, England, 1838-06-16 00:00:00

BENEFICES PLURALITIES BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to a question from
Lord Dungannon, said he proposed to take into consideration
the Benefices Pluralities Bill on Monday next, but he could
not say positively.
SITTING OF THE HOUSE.

Sir R. PE what his intention
v is with respect to sitting on Saturday, and what business he

intonded to take.

Lord J. RUSSELL intended to propose that the House
should sit to-morrow, and if the Municipal Corporation Bill
did not go through the Committee to-night, to proceed with
that. He should likewise propose to proceed with the Juve.
nile Prisoners' Bill, and he proposed that the House sit at
twelve o'clock. _ _

MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (IRELAND) BILL.
The flou,e then went into Committee on the Municipal
Corporation Bill, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Clauses 8,9, 10, and 11 were agreed to without discussion.
On the reading of clause 12,
Mr. Recorder SHAW objected to the introduction of a
clause affecting the parliamentary franchise in a Bill which re-
garded only municipal rights.
Lord MORPETH'S reply was not heard in the gallery.
After a few words from Mr. Serjeant JACKSON and Mr.

GOULBURN—
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was quite right the
clause should be so amended as to apply to the point alluded
to and not to all cases, but he did not see why land-
lords should be encouraged to deprive their tenants
of the right of voting.
Mr. Sergeant JACK SON moved the rejection of the clause.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would rather the clause should
be postponed for the purpose of being amended.
The clause was then postponed.
On clause 13 being put,
Mr. SHAW thought the clause would be insufficient for
the purpose for which it was intended. If it were to pass, it
would have the effect of doing away entirely with the necessity
of each individual paying his rates, as the taxes of a great
number of persons would under the clause be paid in a lump
into the Bank of Ireland.
Mr. WOULFE thought that the opposition to the clause
originated in a wish to throw impediments in the way of the
entire measure.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had as much objection to this
clause as to the previous one. Ile admitted that there
were difficulties thrown in the way of persons desirous
of paying their rates. —(Hear.) But this great evil ought
to be met by a specific Bill, and not by a clause foisted into a
Bill of this kind. He should move the omission of the clause.
Mr. O'CONNELL was greatly edified to hear the Learned
Recorder for Dublin express his horror of bribery in that city.
But he would ask the Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
was it not the fact that nine-tenths of tire freemen were
paid 3/. each for their votes? If the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber were not aware of the fact, he ( Mr. O'Connell) could give
him the name of the Bat rister who wore a mask whilst he paid
the money away.—( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.) The
Honourable and Learned Gentlemen then went into se-
veral details, to show the House that every difficulty
was always thrown in the way of Liberal voters, who were
desirous of paying their rates. If an account were opened at
the Bank of Ireland, so that those rates might be paid in,
in advance, so as to enable the rate-payers to be registered,
without affecting the question of certain disputed rates,
the right of the collectors to resort to legal means of en-
forcing the rate would not in the least be interfered with.
The Learned Sergeant (Jackson) had shown the necessity of
such a clause as he ( Mr. O'Connell) had proposed, to compel
the collectors to give notice of the amount of taxes to be paid.
The effect of the present mode of rating and collecting in
Dublin was to disfranchise 10,000 householders out of 14,000,
there being only 4,000 registered electors.
Sir R. PEEL thought that no man ought to be disfran-
chised for the non-payment of a rate, the amount of which he
could not know.—( Hear, hear.) But that principle ought
to be applied to every borough as well as to DuLlin.—
( Hear, hear.) The collectors ought to be compelled to give
notice of the amount of taxes due.--( Hear, hear.) But the
clause in question did not effect this. It introduced the means
of bribery to a great extent. Any person might go to the Bank
and pay up in one sum the arrears of taxes due by 500 per-
sons. Surely the Noble Lord would see that this was a princi-
ple of universal application, that any one man could go and
pay up the rates for any number of persons. In
this Bill, they ought to embody an enactment to protect elec-
tors from being disfranchised for the non-payment of rates, of
which they could not know the amount.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL perfectly agreed upon
a - • - - • a -a-. oionl,l be paid by the
the power of disfranchising many electorb -tij out eattmg• tut
the cess ; aur.ly then there ought tube a remedy for this, and
the 13th clause they were now on provided machinery which
might, by a little alteration, be made perfect. Every
one by going to the Bink would at once see the arrears he
owed, and the Bank clerk was made the agent of the collector
for this purpose, arid there would be no danger of his corruptly
keeping, out of the way. In Dublin the grievance was greater
than in any other city or town, and it was there only they had the
facility of the Bank to carry the machinery into effect.
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that the clause might be
withdrawn so as to be remodelled. There were very few
of the towns where there were not branches of the
Bank of Ireland, and the principle might be carried out
fully and most easily. It had been distinctly sworn to by the
Collectors themselves, that on the approach of an election,
they had orders to get out of the way, so as to prevent the elec-
tcrs from paying their cess, and these orders were given by
the head of the Board.
After some conversation between Sir R. PL EL and Mr.
Straw, the Clause was eventually withdrawn.
Clause 14 was allowed to stand part of the Bill.
Upon clause 16 being put,
Mr. JACKSON objected to the onerous duties which it imposed upon
the tow', clerks, who ware directed by that clause to make out yearly a
list of those emitted to be placed upon the burgess roll. He had been
written to by some clerks compla'ning of this enactment.
Lord MCHIPETH remarked that, under the new Corporations Bill,

the town clerk w..s the proper officer to make out those lists,
Mr. F. FRENCH said that the town clerk would be paid an alditionai
salary fur the new duties which would be imposed upon them.
The clause was allowed to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 17 was agreed to.
Upon clause 18 being put,
Mr. O'CONNELL remarked that in the English Act a
given, in case a person's name was omitted, to compel the insertion of
Isis name in the list power was

Mr. Sergeant JACKSON reminded the Hon. Member that the case
was different in Eogland, where the list was made out by the overseers
of the poor.
After some remarks from Sir R. PEEL and Mr. WOULFE, the clause
was allowed to stand par! of the Bill.
Clause 19 was the n ad.led to the Bill.
Upon clause being put,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN suggested I hat in case a person whose name 31)-
p,zred on the burgess roll was of jectcd to as absent, his 113111 C should
not upon that account be removed from the list, as it would were the
Clause permitted to remain as it now stood. The list itself should be
prima facie ev:dence of his right.

Mr. WOULFE thought the ozone ought to be removed, if the per•
sou objected to d'd not appear to answer the obj!ction to his claim•
The Clause was allowed to stand Fart of the Bill.
Cla.;ses up to 23 were then agreed to.
On Clause 24,

Sir G. CLERK objected to the smallness of the ponally upon Nfayors
for neglect of duty in omission of names. It was only 101., and in the
Engltsh Bill it wati 1004

Lsnd MOICPETH said the 101. was retained because it wa3 though
;bat it would be more efficient from its smallomount.
Mr. \VOULFE said that there was another advantage consistent will
he smaller sum. 10/. could be recovered before the Assistant Barris.
:er, and 1001. could ru,t.

The Clause was then agreed to.
Clauses to 27 were then agreed to.
_ .

Upon Clause 48 being put,

. .
Sir 11. PEEL remarked that with reference to the qualification for
Mayor, the sum of 500/., or a house of the annual value of '251., his
(Sir It. Peel's) principle had been adopted by the Noble Lord opposite.
—(clear, hear.) The Noble Lord had made the payment of rates an
evidenc, of the value of the house from which the burgess in order to
prove his claim to he eligible to the office of Mayor should prove his
qualification.—(llear.) S.), after all the imputations which had been
cast upon him (Sir R. reel), the test proposed by the Noble Lord was in
substance the same.—(Elear, and cheers.) The question, however,
which lie rose to ask the Noble Lord was, whether he intended in his
amendments to have the same scale for the Poor.rates and Borough_
rates in those eleven or more towns which were to have Corporations in
Ireland ?

Lord J. RUSSELL said it did not by any means follow that the prin_
c:ple of the Poor-rate should be followed up in the Borougli-rate.
Sir R. PEEL asked how was the Borough-rate to be graduated was
it by a reduced scale, or was it intended to graduate it according to the
9th of George IV. ?

Lord J. RUSSELL thought the best way of arranging the Borough
rate was by a graduated scale, according to the 9th of George IV.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 40 was postponed.
Clauses :29 to 60, inclusive, were also agreed to, with verbal amend

Clauses 70, 71, and 7.1 were severally agreed to.
Clause 73 was also agreed to, with some verbal amendments.
Clauses 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, and 79 were also agreed to.
Clauses SO to 93, inclusive, were agreed to.
Clauses 94 to 106 were agreed to.
On clause 107 lx,ing put,
Mr. SHAW expressed a hope that the interests of the warden of
Galway would b 2 taken care of.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clause 108 was agreed to with a verbal amendment.

Clauses 109 to 139, inclusive, were agreed to without discus ion.

On clause 140 being put, .
Mr. O'CONNELL objected to Courts of Conscience, to which it re-
ferred, altogether—(hear, hear)— as greater nuisances had never ex-
isted in any country than these Courts were in Ireland. .
Mr. SHAW confessed he could not defend them.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. W. ROCHE,

Mr. WOULFE admitted that the Courts were objectionable, but said
that this Bill provided fur the regulation of the fees relating to them,
which were the chief iOnrCeS of the evils arising from them.

Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the hest plan would be to place
them under the Recorder of Dublin and increase his salary—(A laugh)
--rtAKiPB pare to provide that he should sit at least once a week.
After a few wor4s (roil} Mr. S. 0'.13R TEN and Mr. HUME, the clause
was agreed to, as were also clauses 141 to 141,141114 m

. .
11n clanse 152, relating to appeals against convictions,
Mr. O'CONIkigLI! protpsted against the way in which they were
generally drawn up, as the greatest ippol)v9ni@nces arose from it.

Mr. SHAW said it was in setting out the evidence that the evils '
luded tJ by the lion. and Learned Member arose.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 153 and 154 were also agreed to.
On clause 155,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN Made an observation expressive of his desire that
the Bill should come into operation this year instead of next.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that his Hon. Friend need not be sanguine
as to their having the Bill at all this year.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to, with the ex-
ception of the postponed clauses, with which the House then proceeded,
and after a brief conversation the postponed clauses and the schedules
were severally ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Sir R. FERGUSSON move:l the insertion of a clause entitling joint
tenants holding premises sufficient to qualify them to the right of voting.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that lie had no objection to this clause.

The clause was then ordered to be added Co the Bill.

Mr. O'CONNELL expressed a hope that a taxation clause would be
inserted, with a view to define what the municipal cesses, rates, and taxes
were in future to be.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the better way would be for the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman to give notice of his intention to bring forward
a clause to the effect which he had stated on the bringing up of the re-
port. Ile (Lord J. Russel) proposed that the report should be brought
up, and if necessary re-committed on Monday night, and that the third
reading should take place on Monday se'nnight.
The preamble of the Bill having been agreed to, the House resumed,
and the report was ordered to be read on Monday next:
Mr. O'CONNELL then gave notice that he meant, on Monday next,
to move the insertion of a declaration in the Bill, defining what were the
municipal cesses, rates, and taxes which corporations in Ireland would
in future be empowered to impose.
Mr. SHAW wished to know from the Noble Lord when the Irish
Tithe Bill was to come on
Lord J. RUSSELL said it stood for the second reading on Monday
next, but that he did not think it would come on until Friday.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,