The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 7, 1849.

of ever carrying it into effect.—(Hear, hear.) The sub-
ject generally was involved in a complication of difficul-
ties, and while he admitted that considerable improve-
ments and alterations could be made in the existing
system, he was bound to add that the system of local re-
gistration suggested by the Hon. Member for Surrey
was not calculated to accomplish the object he had in
view, nor would the Commission which the Honourable
Gentleman proposed to establish succeed in removing
the difficulties which surrounded this momentous question.
Now, in reference to the Bill itself, after passing over
the first six clauses, which related to the establishment
of a registration commission, the House would perceive
that by the seventh clause it was provided that all docu-
ments should be registered, and also all evidence relating
to the title of land which the owner should think of
importance for the purpose of establishing his title to
the property, and then further down there was a direc-
tion that it should be lawful for the owner to register a
description of his land. It was, therefore, left doubtful
whether the owner was to register merely the deeds and
documents relating to the land, or the evidence of title
in both ; but it was clear from the language of the
clause that when any registration was completed it
should not be necessary for the owner to prove his title.
By the existing law, however, the registration was not
complete evidence of title, but this Bill provided, by the
29th clause, that the party who had registered the
document and evidence of his title after
the lapse of thirty years should become
the absolute owner of the lands to which the deeds and
evidence referred. Now, by the interpretation clause,
the owner of the land meant a tenant for life, with re-
mainder to his children, so that if a maa who had regis-
tered a title to property were to die without issue his
brother, or his brother's children, could not claim to be
registered as the owners.—(Hear, hear.) That
might, indeed, not be the intention of the
framers of the Bill, but that really would
be the effect of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill in fact took
no notice whatever of remainders, while all the pro-
tection that was given to the public that a man should
not register another's property, was that the party re-
gistering should give six months' previous notice in the
Gazette of his intention to do so.—(Hear, hear.)
But how could that notice prevent a party register-
ing his neighbour's , estate with his own? True,
the Bill provided that any party doing so should be
guilty of felony, but what protection was that when it was
taken in connexion with other parts of the Bill?—(Hear,
hear.) The other provisions, indeed, were still more ab-
surd, if he might be allowed to use the expression; for in-
stance, the registration was not to be an open one, and
any party who was desirous of searching the registrar
could only do so by first going through the expensive
proceeding of proving his title to the land he claimed.
No such proceeding, however, was extorted from
a party who wished to register an estate, which, in his
view, was rather a strange anomaly.—(Hear, and laugh-
ter.) Then again, having proved his title, a
tarty was not at liberty to search himself, but
was bound to depend upon the search of the registrar,
and if he were dissatisfied with that search he could
only search himself by obtaining an order of court.
The Bill, however, omitted to specify how or where
that order of court was to be obtained. He pre-
sumed, however, that the cheapest mode of
obtaining such an order would be by summary applica-
tion to one of the Chancery Courts, but then of what
avail would even that be when the Bill provided that before
a party could amend or annul an entry he must first prove
his title? The result then would be that the Bill would
be productive of endless litigation, instead of amending
the present system, and a party who might be anxious to
put the owner of an estate to expense and trouble had
nothing else to do but to register himself the owner of
the estate, which registration at the expiration
of thirty years would give him the title, and
before the real owner could annul this entry, he
must go through the expense of an action at law to
prove his title.—(Bear, and laughter.) It was a difficult
matter indeed to secure an effective system of
registration, and it was equally clear that
it' they could hit upon a perfect registration,
it would be a great desideratum, which the Bill totally
failed to supply.—(Hear.) There were other parts of
this Bill which were no less anomalous than those he
had already referred to, but he would not trouble: the
House by going through them. He could, however, as-
sure the House, and the Hon. Member who had introduced
the Bill, that he had carefully considered it, in the hope
of finding that some of its provisions were calculated
to remove some of the evils of the existing system,
but be was satisfied that if it were referred
to a Select Commi:tee the Honourable Member
for Surrey would find himself constrained to
give up clause after clause as being impracticable,
and that, in fact, the only improvement that could be
made in its provisions would be to give the Bill up
altogether.—(Hear, and laughter.) Upon that view of
the case he would suggest that the better course for the
Hon. Member to pursue would be to withdraw the Bill
for the present. He confessed he should not feel dis-
posed, eeling the strong desire that he did on the
subject, to meet the motion for the second reading
by an express and direct negative ; but he
would ask the Honourable Member whether it
would not be advisable to withdraw the measure with
a view to the further examination and consideration of
the subject, which it would be admitted was one of very
considerable difficulty, so that with the assistance of
others he might be enabled to introduce hereafter a Bill
which would carry into effect his own views and objects
in a better and less objectionable mode.
Mr. WOOD said he had listened with great anxiety to
the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend the Soli-
citor-General, but he regretted without any hope being
held out that the desirable object which they had in
view would be carried out more fully and completely
than could be done by the present Bill. He feared,
from the way in which his Honourable Friend ter-
minuted his speech that the prospect of so desir-
able an object being effected as that proposed by the
present Bill was as indefinite as in 1832. In that year
a Commission was appointed, which was composed of
men of the highest eminence in all ranks of the profes-
sion, and of men also who were thoroughly acquainted
with the theory and practice of convect ancing, and it
came to an unanimous conclusion that a Bill for
the general registration of real property was
imperatively demanded. That was not a new idea, but
one entertained by every eminent lawyer, from Sir
Matthew Hale downward ; and he must say that
Honourable Members had not done justice to the
lawyers, for they were the only persons who agi-
tated the subject until the Honourable Member
had happily taken it up, but they were invariably opposed
by the country gentlemen, who were the parties really
_interests din the matter. He could not help alluding to
the words of Sir Matthew Hale, who, in the time of
Charles 11., saw the extreme necessity of a measure like
the present, and who took that large and compre-
hensive view of the mode in which land
should be dealt with that was generally entertained
throughout the country, but which was then confined
alone to the enlightened few. He said that the regis-
tering of all conveyances would prevent much litiga•
tion, and do away with many opportunities which
were afforded to parties to cheat and defraud others.
He also said that in England our greatest inland
trade was the buying and selling of land, and that,
therefore, greater security ought to be given to creditors
in that respect, and to persons who lent money upon the
security of land, and that the buying and
selling of land ought to be as free and un-
controlled as that of every other commodity.
Chief Baron Gilbertson and Mr. Justice Blackstone, and
every other legal authority up to the time the Ccnsmis-
sion was appointed in 1832, entertained the same view.
That Commission not only recommended registration,
but pointed out a definite plan by which it could be
carried out, and the conclusion they arrived at
was nut only participated in by lawyers but by the
country generally. When the Noble Lord the Member
for North Devon brought forward a measure in 1836,
the House was counted out, there being only twenty-
seven Members present. Under those circumstances,
it was perfectly refreshing when the Honourable
Member for West Surrey gave notice of his intention
to bring in a Bill of this description, and thought his
(Mr. Wood's) name was upon the back of it, and al-
though he did not mean to follow the example which
Has witnessed the other day, arid to repudiate his con-
nexion with it, he begged to say that the whole credit of
the Bill was due to the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and
to the other gentlemen who assisted him, and that he only
saw it after it had been prepared. Many of the objec-
tions which had been urged by the Solicitor-General he
attributed to his not having had time, in conse-
quence of his numerous avocations, to look
inconsistent
told the i l
into the Bill, because many of them were totally
bad with
the
Bill If hi s
Friend
Houseitsethlra't the Government
were prepared to bring forward another measure for
complete, full, and effectual
system of registration, he
confessed that he 'would have been infinitely gratified.
A committee of gentlemen was appointed, two years
next April, to investigate the subject, which t heydid
with a great deal of earnestness; but they hadonly
lately been told that the report was ready, and
it would have been still further delayed but for the
notice of the lion. Member. He did not mean to say
that the Bill was completely effectual for all the purposes-
which it was intended to accomplish, but it was quite
sufficient on the present occasion to maintain
the principle of the Bill, and to show that
it was capable of being fully considered in
Committee. The objections raised by the Solicitor-
General would be found in no way to apply to the prin-
ciple ' of the Bill itself, which was to give some better
security for the titles of land, and to diminish the in-
creasing expense of the present system of conveyance.
—(Hear, hear.) The subject was too large to
enter into all the existing evils ; but he would
refer to a publication of Mr. Tyrrell, who
was one of the Commissioners in 1832, in which ha
mentioned eight remarkable cases of fraud in conse-
quence of the want of a proper register. A person had
paid 20,0001. for an estate, but it was afterwards found
that the fee was only held for three lives, and
another claimant coming in three years after-
wards, he was obliged to give up the whole
property, and so lost the whole of his money. Such a
state of things ought no longer to exist. Frauds were
every day being committed, and were becoming a matter
of common occurrence. England was the only country
in the whole world which did not adopt the system of
registration, and it had been established in France,
Belgium, and Holland, and also in Ireland, and in some
counties in England. When they made a serious change
o f the kind suggested, they ought to leave persons free
to register or not as they liked, but when property
was
Once registered every subsequent transaction or
transfer with respect to it ought also to be • regis-
tered in order to make a legal title, In Middle•
sex the important business •
of registering was effected
by the attendance of a merely formal personage,
and not of those who conveyed or w
they!y,interesteci in the matter. Noautheerneticoatthioenrwwlases
required of the accuracy of the statements. The
objections urged against the Bill were more in
respect of its details than, Of its: principle, and the

proper arrangement of these details could be easily
effected. He agreed with the Learned Solieitor• General
that the indices were the most important part of the
Bill ; but their nature would also suggest themselves
in carrying out the purpose of the Bill, as they could
consult, with that view, the indices used in Bavaria and
other continental states, as well as the plan reported
It would be well
iopro nt h be yt
Househe Commissionerstake
tihnatlBt3hey did not adopt a
stereotyped form of index, which could not be altered
without ass Act of Parliament. He hoped the House,
being satisfied of the necessity for such a measure, would
not consent to its postponement or abandonment, unless
her Majesty's Government would state that they would
undertake the preparation of a similar measure on the
subject, which he regarded as one of the utmost public
importance. Sixteen years had already elapsed since
the report of the Commissioners of 1832, and if they
had to wait five or six years longer, it surely was time
for the country gentlemen to bestir themselves, in order
to get removed those improper imposts which at present
pressed upon land. Every Honourable Member who
had purchased land must be aware that the soli-
citors' charges were often as much for a small
as a large property—sometimes the conveyance was 5/.
per cent. upon the whole purchase.—(hear.)
Mr. SLANEY said, though he could not deal with the
technical parts of the question, yet he was firmly im-
pressed with the belief that at no time was a
measure of this kind more required than at the
present moment. When all the great lawyers concurred
in the necessity for such a measure, and they had a
knowledge of the evils that at present existed, he
thought it was time to pass a measure of this nature. If
the Government thought the measure an unfit one, and
ought not to be sent to a Committee up
stairs, he hoped they would give an assurance
that they would at the earliest possible moment
bring forward a measure themselves. Though
the present state of the law affected the opu-
lent and wealthy classes most injuriously, yet it
operated with increased severity upon the middle
and industrious classes, who were prevented from
investing their savings, as no doubt they wished, in the
purchase of land. The facility which they should possess
for this purpose was withheld from them, and hence that
stimulus to the culture of land and to industry, which
it was the duty of the House to foster was
in a great measure destroyed. Besides these classes
had greater charges put upon them than the upper
classes. If they looked at the sale of land for some
years, they would find that, in consequence of the heavy
legal and other charges, the loss had been equal to
five years' purchase, for instance, in consequence of
the difficulties of proving title. He trusted the
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) would perse-
vere until a measure, with a similar purpose, was passed
into a law.
Sir G. GREY quite agreed with the Honourable and
Learned Member for Oxford (Mr.; P. Wood), that
the House was much indebted to his Honourable
Friend opposite in introducing the Bill before
them. It his object had been to elicit the opinion
of the House upon the expediency of establishing a
general system of registration, not only with the view of
keeping up the value of property, but of facilitating its
transfer, and at the same time diminish the enormous ex-
pense, his object had been fully answered, since no
opinion had been expressed hostile to the necessity of
such a measure, however much some Hon. Members
might differ in its details.—(Hear, hear.) And looking
back to the period, which many of them no doubt recol-
lected, when Registration Bills were before the
House, it was satisfactory to find to-day that a
great change existed, both in the House and
in the country, as to the benefits such as
measure was calculated to confer. He should have no
objection to vote for the second reading of the Bill on
the principle that registration was required. He would
not follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in detail;
but would caution the house against consenting to the
second readings of Bills because they con-
curred in their principles, since they thereby adopted
details which perhaps had not been duly considered. Bills
were frequently sent up to Committees, and were there
remodelled, and rendered altoge!her different to their
original state; and when sent back they were not unfre-
quently proceded with as if they had stood as at first.
With respect to what had been said by the Honourable
and Learned Member, as to requiring a pledge
from the Government that they would bring in a mea-
sure, he had to state that the Learned Solicitor- General
considered that the present Bill would fail to effect the
object fur which it was introduced. He (Sir G. Grey)
thought it would not be fair, under the present circum-
stances, to proceed with the Bill. It was now two
years ago since a Commission was appointed
headed by Lord Langdale, and composed of other men
competent to deal with the question; and when the
House knew that they would shortly report to the House
he thought it would not be well to proceed with this
Bill until the Hon. Gentlemen and the House had seen
that report. The Government could give no pledge as
to what course they should adopt until that report had
been presented. That report would receive the atten-
tive consideration of the Government, who would do
everything in their power to facilitate the object which
the lion. Gentleman had in view.
Mr. HENLEY could not give his consent to a measure
of this kind until he had seen the details.—(Hear,
hear.) A registration was in force in Middlesex, York,
and Ireland, and he had never heard it stated that
any of the difficulties or expenses referred to had been
thereby obviated. This Bill had not effaced from his
mind the great difficulties involved in the question. He
agreed with the Solicitor-General that it would be better
to withdraw the Bill, and to introduce another after the
report of the Commissioners had been presented. The
vast expense of the macbiuery was too great a matter
to be left in the bands of a private Member of that house.
Mr. EWART thought it would not be well to proceed
with the Bill in the absence of the report, and intimated
that he should vote against the Bill, but with this quali-
fication, that the Government should subsequently intro •
duce a Bill.
Mr. MULLINGS said the Bill woulil be attended
with infinitely more expense than the present system.
He had perhaps one of the largest conveyance businesses
in the west of England, and as a matter of course vast
quantities of property had passed through his hands,
and he was prepared to assert that the
present expense had been much reduced, and that the
length of the conveyances was caused by the frequently
numberless provisions which they contained. He must
dissent, therefore, to the proposition of the Honourable
Member who claimed support for the Bill, on
the ground that it would reduce the expense of
conveyance. Property was usually valued, nut so much
in regard to the claims of the owners, or their relations
to it, as to its value and rental. He would undertake
to prepare the sale of an estate, seized in fee, in ten
lines; but where provisions were made for children and
others, much language was required. He could not
concur with the principles of the present Bill, and he
must, therefore, oppose the second reading.
Mr. MUNTZ thought that something ought to be
done, and must be dune, in order to simplify the
transfer of real property in this country, but it ought
to be done without consulting parties that had no in-
terest. No plan would work well which allowed title-
deeds to be looked into by any parties other than those
who had an interest in them.
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND having replied shortly,
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but in conse-
quence of
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rising to address tho
House, no division then took place. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, on our re-admission to the House,
was moving that the Bill be read a second time that day
six months.
After some observations from Mr. H. Drummond, Sir
George Grey, and the Lord Advocate,
Sir ROBERT PRICE said, he should vote for this
measure, and against the amendment, in order that the
registration of estates might be simplified and their trans-
fer rendered more easy.
Sir H. VERNEY would support the second reading
of the Bill, believing that it would be productive
of great good. It did not go so far as he could wish,
but still it was a step in the right direction.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, is hen there appeared—
For the amendment of the Attorney-General 45
Against it 55

Majority against the amendment ...-10
A result which was received with loud cheers.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on the 22d.
AFFIRMATION BILL.

Mr. PAGE W 001), on the motion being put for the
second reading of this Bill, said that his conduct in
proposing the second reading would be directed by the
proceeding which might be adopted with respect to it
by lion. Members present. If the Bill were not opposed,
he should confine his remarks to a very brief compass.
If it were opposed, he should, of course, of necessity,
enter at some length into the reasons for its adoption.—
(Cries of " Not opposed, not opposed.") Well, then,
he should simply content himself with moving the
second reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed on the 28th.
LIFE POLICY ASSURANCE BILL.
After a few words from the ATTORNEY•GENERAL
and Sir H. WILLOUGIII3Y this Bill was read a
second time.

POOR .LAWS (IRELAND) BILL.
The resolutions of the Committee on the Rate-in-Aid
Bill were brought up by Sir W. SomEnvu.LE, and
agreed to.

EFFECT OF THE POOR LAW
sh
pee
ef
cclerkt
parishh oe f them aei
in t
Brighton,
dii sct
eo no e.
Captain PECIIELL, in moving for copies 'of the se-
veraltin
withio Union
ill effort toeamrnss
thewrec rcserietvisietedrrye.tbeoyi?
rrekt
John Ledger, his wife and family, whose relief was
withdrawn by the Godstone guardians, pursuant to the
instructions of the Poor-law Commissioners, founded on
the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, said that
his object in moving for these papers was to abolish that
odious system of oppression by which a poor man,
if he had any means whatever of a partial sub-
sistance, was compelled to abandon his family.
The course of which he spoke was one in which
a man capable of serving his Queen and country was
prevented from doing either by the uasettled state of the
poor-law. The
Poor-law Commissioners had in 1846
submitted a case to the law officers of
the Crown, for-the
purpose of ascertaining whether parishes who had in-
curred expense for removal before the Poor-law Amend-
ment Act was passed ought to beindemnified by others.
The decision given was against thedefrayment of such ex-
penses, and he might say also against the opinions of many
of the highest legal men in the country. By this decision
fully one-third of the pauper population of this country
had been made irremovable. This opinion was obtained
in August, 1846, and ;et no notice whatever was given
of it to the several unions for more than two months

afterwards. Nevertheless, although there had been
several attempts to tinker up the poor-law, and he had
repeatedly asked the Attorney-General in that House
when ;he state of the law was to be settled, it was 113

until the 25th of November that the Queen's Bench had
come to any determination of the matter. Yet, though the
Judges had decided that the interpretation of the Act
by th© Poor-law Commissioners was correct, his (Cap-
tain Pechell's) constituents had rebelled against it, and
were determined to resist it. He did not mean in any
way to include an allegation against the present Hon.
Member who was at the head of the Poor-law Board,
when he designated their conduct as being in accordance
with their usual course of bullying; neither would he
allude to the late President of the Board, whom
no one could be lamented more than he was by him.
When that Hon. Gentleman entered upon his office he
had looked for better things; nor had he be en disap.•
pointed. He had evinced a constant desire to mitigate
the operation of this law upon the condition of the poor,
and had he been spared he might have been the instru-
ment of much greater good than that which he effected.
—(Hear, hear.) He had hoped that when the Honour-
able Gentleman who was now Chairman of the Board
entered upon his office, that the system was cleansed of
all its evils, but it appeared that there had been
so much that was bad mixed up in its constitution
that eradication of the mischief was impossible.
He said the House had great reason to complain of the
way in which the whole matter bad been treated. Al-
though the most eminent men in the House, and others
out of it of great legal knowledge, declared it could not
be the intention of the Act to settle persons who had
resided five years in a place, yet the country for
two years were kept in that extraordinary
state by the Poor-law Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.)
The Poor-law Commissioners in their annual
report merely just noticed the fact. They said they
had submitted the construction of the Act to the Attor-
ney and Solicitor-General, and they believed the country
was generally satisfied wii h their construction of the law.
That document was signed by George Nicholls and Ed-
mund Head. The House ought to have those gentlemen
before it, to say why they mystified this subject,
and why they kept the country in this state, by
which parties were put to the greatest ex-
pense, and the poor to the greatest misery that could
possibly occur. It might be said Lord Denman had
given a decision which was opposed to the opinion of
the Attorney and Solicitor-General. The present
President of the Poor law Commission acknoaludged
that the construction of the Act had been 'cult d
by Lord Denman, and parishes had been saddled
with expenses wholly unnecessary. In one pa-
rish of Brighton the poor settled in the teen
cost 1,168/. ; and it was in order to get an explana-
tion from the President of the Poor-law Commission,
and to rectify the difficulty which the Poor-law Commis-
sioners had thrown on the country, and in order to see
what power there was to obtain a remedy from them,
that he had brought this subject before the House. There
might be three courses. The first course was to get the
money from the persons who had caused all those
difficulties. Mr. George Nicholls and Sir Edmund Head
should be applied to for payment first of all, and in de-
fault of them he should look to the Government and the
Peor-law Commissioners to reimburse the parish for the
expense of their non-resident poor when the law was un-
settled. Then, again, tho Hon. President of the Poor-law
Board should bring in a Bill to enable parishes to repay this
expenditure. He did hope something would be done
where so manifest an injustice had been created. The
Poor-law Commissioners had had their amusement, and
he now called upon them to pay the bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said his Honourable
and Gallant Friend was aware that the Poor-law
Commissioners could not have the papers under
their control. As it was his duty, so he
at once stood up and took the whole of this matter and
the responsibility of it upon himself. The Poor-law
Commissioners had nothing to do with the matte!. ; they
merely acted on an opinion given them by his Hon.
Colleague (the Solicitor-General) and himself on the
construction of this statute ; and he (the Attorney-
General) was prepared to abide by that opinion.
The question as to the construction of the clause
was whether the proviso was retrospective or not, or
whether it was clearly prospective. He and his Hon.
Colleague gave the question the best consideration they
could, and they came to an opinion upon the Act, which
they gave to the Poor-law Commissioners. They were
not singular in that construction ; many Hononourable
and Learned Members in the House and many lawyers
out of it gave the same opinion, that the proviso was
not retrospective. He (the Attorney-General) appre-
hended he did his duty in putting the best
cwoanss t r uncetti o n
teh e
blacmoueld b
euepaouns e t hhee Ah
acdt,
eaent d h la,
de
the concurrence of the Learned Judges in his opinion.
Ile apprehended that no blame could attach to him be-
cause he'gave an opinion two years age upon the con-
struction of an Act of Parliament, which the Court of
Queen's Bench had since overthrown; nor could the
Poor-law Commissioners be blamed. They had no
power to send a case before the Queen's Bench, though
he, in his capacity of Attorney-General, mooted this mat-
ter in the Queen's Bench on their behalf, but the Court
held that they had no right to decide sooner for one
party than another.—(Blear, hear.) In this case then
there was no ground of complaint, at, all. He alone
was responsible for the opinion he had given—not the
Poor-law Commissioners, and he was prepared to take it
upon himself.—(Hear, hear, arid cheers.)
Lord DUDLEY S I'UART said, notwithstanding
what had been stated, it was quite clear that the
opinion:of the Learned Attorney-General was wrong, and
that his lion. and Gallant Friend the Member for
Brighton was right.—(Elear, and laughter.) The con-
stituents of his Hon. arid Gallant Friend had, in com-
mon with others, been put to a great deal of expense
by the opinion of the Learned Attorney. General, and
the complaint therefore of the Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman was not ill-founded.—(Hear, ht ar.) The papers
Caen ought to be produced.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—And so they will be.
Lord DUDLEY STUART in that case had nothing
further to say.—(Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. HENLEY gave it as his opinion that neither the
law-officers of the Crown nor the Poor-law Commis-
sioners were to blame in the matter. Certain parishes
had applied to the Poor-law Commissioners for advice
as to tne construction of au Act of Parliament, which
led to their laying the Act and case beture the Attorney
and Solicitor. Generals for their opinion, and in their pri-
vate capacity the Poor-law Commissioners had forwarded
it to the various parishes throughout the country for their
guidance in arriving at a proper construction of a diffi-
cult Act of Parliament, but it was quite optional for
those parishes to adopt the advice or not; and ho hoped
the House would not consent to re-opening of the ac-
counts which had been incurred in consequence of the
opinion.—(Hear.)
Mr. BAINES could assure the Hon. Gentleman that
the Poor-law Commissioners had no power whatever to
consent to the opening of the accounts, which had been
audited and finallyjsettled.—(Hear,:hear.) His belief was,
however, that the parishes had not suffered much from
the opinion of the law officerasinQeodufeetnhb,esy CBrooennweenh, being
sr
of
another; but, at all events,
opu
fpa
parish
p e therAbsyand
mightp a
parish
i sh Courthße vbey
the loss, if any, had not been so great as was repre-
sented by the lion. and Gallant Member who had in-
The Poor-law
honour to suc-
ceedct r
()er eid umwe eiesdr.sei
ot
nnh
eoe
rt st
ouwbbjhleaec
molt .
-;hi(nei
tehi al
ear
d,r, hearattthe
er.,)
for all they had
done was, not to advise certain parishes as to the
course they had to pursue in referenco to a particular
Act of Parliament upon their own responsibility, which
they had no power to do, but lay a case before the At-
torney and Solicitor- General and forward their opinion
to the different parishes as the best advice that could be
obtained on the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES thought the lion. and Gallant Mem-
ber who had brought forward the motion had more cause
for complaint than seemed to be allowed by many Hon.
Members who bad takes part in the discussion. He
felt that a degree of blame attached to the Poor-law
Commissioners for having advised the Government to
resist his suggestion to introduce a declaratory Bill,
and at once get rid of the difficulty which arose from
the construction of the Act. Under these circumstances,
oc ef r s
the o t
Hon.
eC. r
tionwdn ,
Gallantand t that ac-
count
Member
the parishes had no option but to follow the
opi
the
opinion of teheemlpalwainotffi
was a perfectly just one.—(Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL perfectly recollected
the Hon. Member making the suggestion to which he
had just referred, but the Hon. Member was wrong in
supposing that the Poor lawCommreirsionershad advised
fact
Government not to adopt ea hear.) The
was the Committee which was then sitting upon the
po poor-laws
- ined that a declaratory Act ought no
to b© introduced.asde
ter

Mr. BA AKES said the Learned Gentleman was not
quite correct. He happened to be a Member of the Com-
mittee, and he proposed that the first thing they should
consider was this very Act, with the view of introducing
a declaratory Bill. His proposition was however rejected.
Captain PECHELL was glad that the papers were to
be laid before the House because the matter could not
rest here.—( Hear, hear.) He considered it his duty to
follow up this subject, because he considered the House
would not sanction so
great an act of injustice as tha-
which had arisen from its bad legislation.
PENSIONS, &c.

After some further discussion, the return was agreed to.
Mr. HUME moved for the following return, with
some slight modification, which was not distinctly
heard in the gallery:-_A list, alphabetically arranged,
of all persons in England receiving salaries, pensions,
pay, profits, fees, emoluments, allowances or grants of
public money, between the sth day of January, 1848,
and the sth day of January, 1849, the amount of which
exceeds 2001., stating the total amount received by
each individual, and distinguishing the sources
from which the payments are made, -and the
aggregate of the whole ; similar list of all persons
in England receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits,
fees, emoluments, allowances or grants of public money,
(not including those persona paid by wages), be-
tween the sth day of January, 1848, and the sth
day of January, 1849 the amount of which is
not above 501., and not exceeding 2001. sterling
each person, the total amount received by each
individual, and distinguishing
the sources from which
the payments are made, and the aggregate of the whole;
so as to exhibit in those two lists every person in Eng-
land in the receiptof of 50/ from those and
upwards •
from all other sources of public money (the Church
Mr. BANKES, in moving
ex-
cepted). Also, two similar lists for Scotland, and two
similar lists for Ireland.--Agreed to.
THE TWO SICILIES.
for an account of all Ord-
nance stores returned from that department to any con-
tractor in the year 1848, for the purposo of being sent
to the Sicilian insurgents in arms against her Majesty's
ally the King of the Two Sicilies, with the consent of
her Majesty's Government—said as it would affect our
character as a nation, he thought it his duty to call
the attention of the House to the subject.
It was a remarkable fact, although legislation upon
matters of domestic policy was canvassed in all socie-
ties, that in that House alone did it happen that our
foreign policy was BO little entered upon. Matters ro-

lating to our intercourse with foreign states
were either too early or too late for discus-
sion, but there was always some reason given
by some one on the Treasury benches why the present
was an inappropriate occasion to discuss those particular
subjects which people out of doors were freely discus-
sing. If all matters with regard to our foreign policy
passed with advantage to the State and to our own
character, undoubtedly it might be reasonable not to dis-
courage that mysterious sort of tranquillity which hitherto
for a long time has prevailed in regard to our relations
with foreign powers. But they looked about them, and
they saw that was not the case: our relations with
foreign states were not altogether of an entirely satis-
factory nature, and ho thought that an humble individual
might be excused if he spoke of the political cir-
cumstances which were now passing- before
their eyes, and brought the matter prominently befure
the House. In many of those countries with which it
was our interest as a great commercial nation to be on
terms of friendship, things were not in a very satisfac-
tory state. True it was that there was no war, and he
begged to say that he was as much opposed to war as the
Noble Lord the Stcretary of State tor Foreign Affairs,
and that he was most desirous to promote an amicable
and peaceful policy, and would avoid all those sets
which would, by any possibility tend to disturb exist-
ing tranquillity, and which would lead to hostility, and
when they saw at present, wherever they turned their
eyes, thut our relations were not of that umicable de-
scription which was desired, he felt authorised
in bringing the subject before the attention
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) He would touch
for one moment upon the events of last year, and draw
the attention of the;House, in the first instance, to our
relations with the kingdom of Spain. At an early period
of the session, last year, our relations with that country
were not of that amicable nature which was desired.
Rumours of an unpleasant description were afloat,
and questions were put to the Government which
elicited only very short answers, until at last those ques-
tions were interrupted by a signal fact, viz., the arrival
of our ambassador, who had been sent away from the
Court in disgrace, the whole particulars of which had
never yet been explained to the House. In reference to
the matter, he submitted a motion to,the House in the
month of Juno last, and one of the highest authorities
of the House told him that the motion was premature.
Not meeting with that degreelof encouragement, without
which ho had no desire to trouble the House to vote
upon any subject, he did not press his motion to a divi-
sion, and indeed the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston)
would not give him an opportunity of having a direct
division on the subject. Up to so late a period as last
week proceeuings had taken place with regard to our
relations with the Court of Spain, but in that House
they had heard nothing upon the subject of them. It
was with the recollection of what passed with regard to
Spain that he took the opportunity to refer to another
branch of our relations—that was our rela-
tions with the kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
'then it appeared that the King of the Two Sicilies bad,
unfortunately for himself, invited to his Court a diplo-
matic agent of this country, who had been instru Len-
tal in fomenting insurrection in Italy, and latterly
rebellion in Dome.—(Hear, hear.) His efforts, how-
ever, were ineffectual in putting out the flame which
he had raised, and having made every place
too hut for him he came home. The presence of such a
nobleman was sure to have its natural effect upon the
insurgent party, and an opposite effect upon those who
were arrayed against them. What were their re-
lations with Sicily when these negotiations ceased
he did not know, as no official accounts had
been furnished. They had, therefore, to rely
upon the accounts published in the newspapers.
If, in point of fact, Sicily did become an independent
nation, it was only right—it was absolutely necessary
that the Houses of Parliament should have been in-
formed of a great change of that description;
more especially should the Houses of Parliament have
been informed of such a circumstance, since such a course
was opposed by the treaty of Vienna. Then, again, the
King of the Iwo Sicilies was recognised in the Queen's
Speech as the Kiug of Naples; and they had been left to
form their conjectures as:to the cause. Subsequently they
learned from rumours floating through the town that arms
had been perinitwd to be sent by that authority for the
supply of the insurrectionists early in the past autumn.
Though he (Mr. Baukes) knew that arms bad gone from
this country, he did not believe that they had gone
ith his cogaizence. He could not believe that a
Cabinet Minister, occupying a high position in the
councils of his country—he heard, therefore, with surprise
the Noble Lord nut only acknowledge that the fact was
perfectly true, but that he saw nothing objectionable in
it. He must, therefore, at that time, have considered
Sicily an independent state, since on no
other ground could such conduct be justified.
'there must surely have been a time
when he acknowledged the independence of that
kingdom. It appeared that the contractor employed by
the Sicilian insurrectionists applied to the Ordnance-
office for armF, because he had not time to get them
else. le re. The Ordnance rt fused to comply with his
request, an the matter was referred to the Noble Lord
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affaire. He
die not know what degree of control the Noble
Lord possessed over the ordnance department, but
of this he was satisfied, that the Ordnance-office
would not act without his authority, and that he
gave it and did not deny that he had so acted.
He could not conceive under what circumstance it could
be right to give the high sanction of the authority
which the Noble Lord held in the country to the
arming of insurgent, against their lawful King,
supposing there had been no distinct recog-
nition, on the part of that King, of the in-
dependence of the revolted province. There were other
circumstances of a painful nature to which he
might allude, such as what had been stated
positively in that House had been denied
in the other, but he would not further advert to that
subject. He would merely conclude by making the motion
of which he had given notice. He understood there was
no objection to the substance of the motion,
but he (Mr. Baukes) adhered to the whole stattreent, as
he believed it was the only way of eliciting the truth.
Lord PALMERSTON said that it was true, as the
Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he should
have no objection to produce the papers he moved for ;
but he felt bound to object to the latter words of the
motion, because it implied opinions with respect to the
question between the Sicilians and this country which
the House was not in a condition to decide upon. He
had no objection to the motion for the account of all
arms furnished to the Sicilians, but he must
object to that part of the motion in which the
Hon. Member called the Siciltans insurgents.—(Hear,
hear). The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there never
was a fitting and proper time to be found to discuss fo-
reign questions in that House. He must, however,
compliment the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on having
found out a time which he had thought fitting and pro-
per—namely, the time when he was perfectly ignorant
of the matters that were pending.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear," and laughter.) The House was not
at the present moment in possession of the documents to
correct the fallacies of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
Ho (Lord Palmerston) wholly denied the second
assertion of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man. It was true that when discussions were pro-
posed on matters of intricate foreign negotiations, when
those discussions were brought forward at an improper
time, that it was the duty of the Government, and he hid
invariably adopted that course, to decline entering
into a discussion founded upon papers that had not been
laid before the House; but he had never declined
entering into a discussion founded upon papers that
had been laid before the House. Those who wanted
to find fault with the Government that adopted such
a course were to blame, and not those who really wished
for information.—(Hear.) There was a great difference
on this subject, as on many others, between the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman and himself; he seemed
to consider that all persons who took up arms in vindi-
cation of their rights were insurgents.—(Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Gentleman belonged to the old school,
who thought there was a' divine right in kings to govern
wrong. The Honourable Gentleman had stigmatised
the Sic,ilians as insurgents; he would not go into the
question; the Sicilians had bad a constitution for cen-
turies; the rights they enjoyed under that consti-
tution had been confirmed by their Sovereign
in 1812, when their ancient constitution was
remodelled and reformed. At that time their Constitu-
tion was sanctioned, article by article, by the word of
the Sovereign of the day. He (Lord Palmerston) asserted,
therefore, that if the Sicilians rose in arms to assert
their rights to a constitution, they did so for the purpose
of asserting a right that had never been abrogated. Ile
could not concur with the Honourable Gentleman
in stigmatizing the Sicilians as insurgents.—(Hear, bear.)
The Honourable Gentleman had said that the rela-
tions of this country with Foreign Powers were not
in the situation he should wish to see them in.--
(Hear.) He (Lord Palmerston) thought some of the
views of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would
lead this country into that condition with Foreign
Powers he did not wish to see.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Lord Palmerston) denied that the relations of this
country with Foreign Powers were in an unsatisfactory
state.—(Hear, hear.) He asserted most unhesitatingly
that the character of this country stood high with foreign
Powers, and that the moral influence of this country—a
moral influence founded upon the good sense and en-
lightened conduct of England—was great among foreign
nations. Foreign countries had seen, in the midst of
events which had shaken other countries to their very
centre—(Hear, hear)—that England had stood un-
shaken—(Hear, hear)—aud that had given confidence
among foreigners in the people and Government of
England. Foreign nations felt that the British Govern-
ment and the British people were fitted and willing to give
advice when asks d—(Hear, hear)—and that advice was
valued and respected, and not spurned and condemned,
as had been asserted by the Hon. and Learned Member.
The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had adverted to the
interruption of tse intercourse between this country
and Spain, and had complained loudly that no
information had been given on the suttject. All
he could say was, that the papers on that subject were
laid on the table of the House last year; and it nothing
had been dune upon the subject, he was not to blame fur
it, and the fault lay with the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, and not with the Government.—(Hear.)
They might remember that the Hon. Gentleman had a
wonderful, but a somewhat defective, and certainly a
very short memory.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The
Hen. Gentleman had referred to the mission of Lord
Minto to Naples, and had stated that his interference had
been essentially mischievous, in provoking the hostility
between the King of Naples and his Sicilian subjects. Ho
Would again tell him that he was wrong in his facts, as
well as in his conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord left this country on his mission on the 17th Decem-
ber, and reached Naples on February 6th. He presented
his credentials on the 7th of February, and yet the Hon.
Gentleman asserts that the disturbances which occurred
at Messina were in consequence of the excitement pro-
duced by Lord Minto's declaration after his arrival in
December.—(Hear, hear, from Ru per te of the L 19409

great cheering, and laughter,) Now, with respect to
the mission of his Noble Friend, the Hun. Gentleman
said 'that the principal object of it was to excite the
subjects to rebel against their sovereigns.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES—I said just the contrary. I said, not
that he excited the subjects to rebel, but that such was
the effect his acting on his instruction s.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PALMERSTON—The Hon. Gentleman was
so much accustomed to produce effects which he never
desired that he (Lord Palmerston) was not at all sur-
prised at his confounding intention with effect on the
present occasion. Now, he denied the Hon. Member's
assertion with respect to the effects as well as the inten-
tion. It was not true that any such effects as had been
ascribed to them had been produced by the exertions of
his Noble Friend. Lord Minto was aware when he
went on his mission what was the object of it,
and that while his first duty was to procure the
fulfilment of the articles of the several treaties his
next was to bring the opposing parties into a position of
mutual peace and amity.—(Hear, hear.) The honour-
able Gentleman might as wed say that the missions of
his Noble Frier d to Rome in the beginning of last year,
was productive of the events which occurred at the be-
ginning of the present, or rather at the close of last year.
—(llear, hear.) Now, ho could tell the House that the
interference of Lord Mints was at the express request of
the King of Naples, or as the Honourable Genileman
wished in strict diplomatic phrase, to designate him, the
King of the two Sicilies—that interference was at the ex•
press request of the King himself.—(Hear, hear.)
Now the Hon. Gentleman misread treaties. He asserts
that the title of the King of the Two Sieilies was con-
ferred by the treaty of Vienna. It was very true that
' by that treaty the Sovereign was empowered to enter
upon his donalnien,e
Mr. BANKES--With the title of the King of the
Two Sicilies.—(Great laughter and cheers from the
Opposition, and counter cheers from the Ministerial
benches.)
Lord PALMERSTON—True with the title of the
King of the Two Sicilies, but though King of the Two
Sicilies, he was in fact King of Naples, But title did
not give a right to territory, and it was just as
reasonable to question the justice or the courtesy of any
man who used this mode of address as it would he for any
one to suppose that because the sovereign of this kingdom
was formerly styled King of England and France, he was
necessarily entitled to a portion of the territory of that
country.—(clear, hear.) Beeides, the right to territory
or of title did not give the right to overturn Constitu-
tions. The title was one thine; the territory was
another.—(Hear, let ar.) He regretted that the Hon.
Gentleman had not waited until the papers con-
nected with this subject were laid on the table
of the • House. He regretted it especially,
because, although it was better for the Hon. Gentleman,
it was worse fur the House.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
These papers would disclose that he now might tell him
that it was the most earnest desire of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to continue the friendly relations of this coun-
try with the kingdoms of the two &eines. That had
been the desire of the Government at all times, and
never more than during the period when these negotia
tions were pending.—(Hear, and cheers.) The desire,
indeed, was at all times expressed, and expressed
to preserve a perfect union between the Sicilies •and
England.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the papers
he had no sort 01 objection to produce them.—(Hear.)
Then, with respect to the papers regarding the matter
to which the Hon. Member had alluded of the arms
which had been supplied to the Sicilian insurgents. The
contractor for the supply of arms to her Majesty's
Government had sent in a certain number of iron
guns. Having a contract also for Sicily that gentleman
had applied for leave to take them out of the stores
to send them to that Island. He had been applied to by
the official authorities on the subject, and he had, with-
out hesitation, given his assent for that purpose.—
(Hear, cheeis, and counter cheers.) But it was done
in a moment of inadvertence; and, as such, he stated it.
Upon a review of the circumstances, however, and con-
ceiving that such a proceeding might be offensive at
the Court of Naples, her Majesty's Minister at that
Court had been duly instructed to explain the
matter.—(Renewed cheering, and counter cheering.)
Let not Hon. Gentlemen suppose that this fact was with-
out a precedent—(Hear, hear)—or that it was an in-
variable practice. The Government of France had al-
ways allowed the sale of arms out of the public stores for
any people or kingdom whatever.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers, and repeated cheers.) He bad no objection, he
repeated, to produce the papers with this alteration in the
terms of the motion, that the words after " to the"
should be left out, and others substituted, which would
prevent the publication of the political portion of the
affair.—(Cheers.)
Sir J. WALSH said that the Noble Lord had entered
upon an unusually discursive course on the present oc-
casion. But he would rather follow his precept than
imitate his example, and confine himself simply to the
merits of the case. He did not perceive that the Noble
Lord had in any respect answered the observations
of his Hon. Friend, nor had he in any way shown that
the duty of this country had been fulfilled under the
treaties into which we had entered at the Congress of
Vienna, and which the mission of Lord Minto had made
m ,re difficult than they were, if not impossible.
It was simply this—were we neutral in the struggle going
on between Naples and Sicily, was the position of Eng-
land that of a neutral power, and it' so was this transaction
inconsistent with the position and character of a neutral
power. That was the plain question which was raised by
the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes).—(Hear.) It
appeared that a contractor applied to 'the Ordnance for
some of the Queen's stores, for the purpose of sending
those arms to Sicily; that the Ordnance applied to the
Noble Lord, and that they received the sanction of the
Noble Lord for issuing those arms out of those
stores. It did appear to him (Sir J. Walsh) that
this veil of the contractor was so transparent and
so thin a pretext that it utterly failed. It
was impossible to argue, with a perfect knowledge of the
facts which the Government seemed to have had of the
contractor not concealing the purpose for which he ap-
plied for those arms, but that it was just as much the
act of the Noble Lord and the Government, as if they
had directly sent those arms on the applica-
tion of the Sicilian Government. If there was a
difference, there was something unworthy the character
of a greet nation in effecting this object by so indirect a
means. That was not the whole of this transaction.
The Noble Lord had very acutely dwelt at considerable
length on those general topics ; but he scarcely
adverted to his (Sir J. Walsh's) Honourable
Friend's motion. He disposed of it in his
light easy flowing strain, in some five or six sen•
tences, and then he sat down; but the whole of this
transaction was not even now fully before the House of
Commons. It appeared there was a reconsideration of
this question. The act of the Noble Lord had come
more formally before the consideration of the Govern-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and it appeared that the
act of the Noble Lord was not approved of by the ma-
jority of his colleagues.—(Hear, hear.) His (Sir J.
Walsh'e) Hon. Friend had remarked that the House of
Commons was almost the only society in which topics
relating to foreign affairs were almost tabooed, a
subject on which the House was scarcely allowed to
enter ; but there was another society in which
there was a similar exclusion, and that was the Cabinet.
—(Hear, hear.) It appeared the Noble Lord mono-
polised the whole management of those things without
any communication with his colleagues, and that after-
wards when those subjects were brought on more
formally the Government felt it necessary
to disavow them ; and their instructions were
given by the Government to its Ambassador
at Naples that if any explanation was de-
manded it would be said to the Neapolitan Government,
on the part of her Majesty's Government, that such a
step was inadvertently taken, and was taken without due
regard to the consequences, and taken hastily, and
without fully weighing the construction that
might be placed upon it. Ho said that was
a position which he deeply regretted that this
country was placed in. He said those apologies and
those retractation for that equivocal and clandestine act
struck at the honour and character, and reputation of
this great country. He did say, when the Noble Lord
dilated in his easy flowing manner on the moral force
which England possessed, and on the weight which
was naturally attached to her great character in all her
diplomatic transactions and proceedings of this kind,
underhand in the first place, and disavowed and
apologised for in the second, were calculated to
weaken and destroy that moral force. That
was the real ground, and the very narrow ground on
which the question stood. He and his Hun. Friend
(Mr. Bankes) did not intend on the present occasion to
raise the general question of the politics of Sicily, or to
go over the field of Neapolitan and Sicilian affairs.
His Hon. Friend made this distinctive motion in order
. .

to invite the attention of the House to the matter which
he had brought before it.
Mr. MACGREGOR said, if he had known this ques-
tion would have been brought under discussion, he would
have brought facts and statements to bear upon
it, which would have given it a very different
complexion. He would say, if the Noble Lord the Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs could have been justified
in any interference whatever with the affairs
of other countries, it would have been in
the affairs of Sicily. Ho did not think there
had been anything like that interference with
which the Noble Lord was charged. He (Mr. Mac-
gregor knew that country well, and had travelled over
many countries called despotic, but in no country
did he ever see so many military executions for pre-
sumptive crimes as in the Island of Sicily. The
Sicilians had acted with the greatest harmony, and there
was the greatest domestic tranquillity. With respect
to what was done either by the English or French
Admirais, ho considered it was neither more nor less
han two gentlemen walking across a field,
and who interfered to prevent a great
many people from ill-using a woman and her
children. That was what was done at Messina.
There never was a greater act of humanity than that
done by Sir William Parker with regard to the people of
Messina. lie (Mr. M'Gregor) had no hesitation in say-
ing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreing Affairs
had done more to preserve the peace of Europe since
the beginning of 1848 than any Minister who had ever
had the management of foreign affairs in this country.
—(Hear, hear.) Ile said that not from ally personal
feelings, but merely from his (Mr. Macgregor's) own
actual experience and personal knowledge, and his com-
munications from other countries.

Mr. JUAN O'C ONNELL congratulatnd the Noble
Lord, the Seer. tary for Foreign Affairs, on the
full determination on his own part, and en
the part of the Ministry, to recognise
the entire right and justice of a nation to demand the
government of ita own affairs.—(Laughter.) Ile trusted
he should have the benefit of the Noble Lord's support
when Ireland made the same appeal.—(Laughter) —for
the case would be equally as stroll as that of the Sicilians.
The Irish peoplo had advocated their lights by peaceable
and constitutional means. He congratulated the Noble
Lord on his approximation to better principles.—
(Laughtor) Lie 144 onici Oulu wuiuv diviuu ;ight iu

Kings. neither was there a divine right in a Parliament.
The Noble Lord also said that country labouring under
circumstances of misfortune was not made for sovereigns
and Governments to trifle with. Neither, he would add
to this, was the Irish nation made for Sovereigns and
Governments, and though the people of Ireland had
great affection for their Sovereign, they had no attach-
ment for his Government. The Noble Lord spoke also
of an ancient constitution which ought always to be re-
cognised. He (Mr. O'Connell) would remind the
House of the ancient constitution of the land--(a laugh).
—which had endured for 800 years, and which was dis-
tinctly recognized in 1782 by Parliament, for in the
words of an Act which was then passed, it was declared
that the rights of the Irish nation had been
established for ever.—(Hear, hear.) The ration, how.
ever, was deprived of those rights by succ,ssive Parlia-
ments; but he hoped when he brought the subject more
formal!), u: dt r the consideration of the House he should
at least have the support of the Noble Lord.—(" Hear,"
and laughter) He telt that he ought not to sit down,
wtthout saying a word or two as to Lord Minto's peace-
ful mission.—(L,tighter.) " That mission," said the
Noble Lord, " was one of peace and consolation."—(A
laugh.) Well, they had no means of judging what in-
structions were given to Lord Minto, as they had not
seats in the Cabinet, nor had they the paper relating to
the matter, but they could at any rate judge of the
mission Ly its fruits.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, they
saw him going first to Sicily, and holding secret inter.
views with some of her sons, which led to war and op-
pre sion.—(Hear.) Then, they saw him going to
Rome, and tratereising with Alizz'ni and the Prince
Canino, and going into a public balcony to salute a riot-
ous populace. Then they saw him going to Sicily, and
there his proceedings had been followed by one of the
most disastrous wars which had Liken place in modern
times. If this was a mission of peace, he should like
to know what was a mission of war.---(Cheers.)
After a tew observations from Mr. HENLEY,
Mr. HUME was glad to hear that the Noble Lord
had emitted that the naval force of England had pre-
served the peace of Europe, because he trusted when he
shout.' propose at an esrly period a reduction in the
army and navy, he should have a fair field.—(Hear and
laughter.) He gave the Noble Lord full credit
for sincerity when he expressed his conviction that
England with her moral force had succeeded in securing
the peace of Europe, and he hoped the Noole Lord
would be prepared at the proper time to support a
m,,tion for a reduction of the forces.—(Loud
cries of "Hear, hear.") With regard to this particular
qucstiun nu doubt the Noble Lord had asked with the;
best intentions, but he doubted much whether the fat,
of a minister high in office stating in another place th
the policy of the Noble Lord in reference to Sic
had been adopted with the sanction and privity of t
Cabinet, was calculated to increase the Noi
Lord's own moral influence abroad.—(Cheers.) T
Noble Lord's defender had talked about the Noble
Lord and his Admiral having interfered from moti vs
of humanity; but he for one deprecated the use tf
such a justtfleation, because, if they were always o
fall back upon motives of humanity in any
of our finest arms who fought our battles as so
matter of duty might be induced to abacdon
us by motives of humanity.—(Hear, and cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Noble Friend (Lord
Palmerston) had been accused of going beyond the
bounds of the motion, as it he had introduced other
subjects besides those directly relating to it, but the
fact was that the Hon. Member (Mr. Bankes)
who made the motion had alluded to a
number of matters which were not strictly
betore the House. From point to point of the Hom.
Member's statement did his Noble Friend give answers
which he (Lord John Russell) thought were en'
tirely satisfactory to the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now
he was not the only Member who had entered
into statements which were entirely irrelevant
to the account to which the motion related.
Did the House ever hear of a motion of censure with re-
gard to the acts of a Government brought in under the
shape of a motion for an account of a certain number of
guns which had been supplied by the Ordnance?—
(Hear, hear.) IV as that not a strange mode of
censure when the account had not yet been laid
before the House, and when the Government were not
unwilling to produce it ?—(Hear, hear.) Was it not
unallowable to iutroduce a statement of the conduct of
the Government with respect to a particular matter
when the means of deciding upon it were not in the
possession of the House ?—(Hear, hear.) That, in fact,
was the whole question at issue and nothing more, but
the occasion was so tempting that Hon. Members could
not refrain from going into other matters.—(Laughter.)
The Hon. Member for Limerick said that was an occa-
sion to introduce the question of the repeal of the union,
and the Hon. Member for Montrose said it was a good
opportunity for stating what should be the amount of the
estimates, and what reductions should be made.—
(Laughter.) The House would see the consequence of
that inconvenient proceeding, for instead of moving for
an account of the number of guns supplied by the Ord-
nance, and ending there, statements had been introduced
with respect to the kingdom ot the Two Sicilies and our
conduct towards it. Among ether misunderstandings
upon the question before the House, there appeared to be
one with regard to what pasted in another place
on the same subject, in substance to the effect that his
Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) had said he maintained
that he had done perfectly right. Now, his Hon. Friend
said nothing of the kind, and had ofered no opinion
upon the subject at the present moment. The lion.
Member for Montrose had stated that whatever might be
opinion of the other members of the Cabinet they dif-
fered with the Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston). Nothing
of the kind had occurred. The fact was this:—His
Noble Friend, some months ago, received an applica-
tion from the Ordnance-office with respect to the
supply of guns, and he then said that he
had no objection to assent to arms being given, but it
was not thereby intended that that country should be
inundated with British arms, nor that this coun-
try should be demanded of her arms.—(Hear, hear.)
lustruetiuns were afterwards given to her Majesty's
Minister at Naples to offer an explanation, and to state
his regret at %hat had occurred. He did not wish to
enter into the merits of the question, nor as to
the rights of the King of the Two Sicilia,
understood without reference to the papers of the time
of the tran'actions of 1812 up to 1816. The papers
certainly did not justify the Honourable Gent-
leman in saying that Lord Minto bad raised
the insurrection in the Two Sicilies in January.
as ecknowlsdged by that treaty of Vienna—as to the
right secured to the people by the assent of the ancient
and hereditary Prince of the Two Sicilies in the
year 1812. All these matters were of very se-
rious import, which be thought could net be well
by going to Naples in the month of February. Lord
Minto went to Naples in February, the King having
expressed a wish to communicate with our
Ambassador from this country, and Lord Minto, who
accepted the office, consider, d that he might be of use
to the King in arranging terms between him
and the Provisional Government of the two Sicilia.
He (Lord J. Russell) was told that no such Government
existed, and that Lord Minto was not justified in the
course he adopted. The Noble Lord then referred
to the establishment of a Provisional Government in
Belgium, which he said this country did not hesitate to
acknowledge. We replied to the statement of the Hon.
Member for Limerick by saying that his statement that
the case of Italy was similar to that of Ireland
reminded him of a story told by a friend of his, who had
travelled in Sicily. A child told him that she would go
to England by land, but he said she could not, as Eng•
and was an island; but, said the child, Sicily is an_
island too. (Laughter.) That was the resew
) blance between Ireland and the Two Sicilies.—(Hear.'
of the Hon. Member had attended to the affairs of Sicily
he would have found that the King of Naples was the
first King who gave his people a representative Consti-
tution, and without any foreign advice whatever. -Lord
Minto was far from having advised anything democratic.
He advised the Sovereigns with whom he was brought
into contact, whilst they supported, their independence,
to make such reforms as were required by the wants of
their people. He (Lord J. Russell) believed that with
regard to Italy, as well as to 'lsoter parts of Europe, that
if such advice as that given-by Lord Minto in 1848 had
been given, and given with success, teensy years before
to Austria, Prussia, and Italy, 'he beleived the disasters
that had occurred would have been averted. If the
Sovereigns of Italy had allowed their people
some liberty —if they had good represeue
tation—if, in short, they had given some
outlet to the intelligence and desire of the peopl.
for political power, which, with the progress of know-
ledge and the existence of peace, had been rendered ab-
solutely necessary; so far from bloody civil war
arising in Europe, they should have been
spared the scene of past havoc, and instead
of beholding a transition from the most complete and
absolute despotism to the most wild and rabid demo-
cracy. They should have had the introduction of
constitutional governments, and would have beheld a
better state of things in Europe than existed at the
presens moment.—(Cheers.)
Mr. URQUHART rose amidst loud cries of " divide."
He said the state of things in Sicily was another instance
of the mischievous nature of the interference of this
country with foreign States; and if a similar course were
pursued in the future, the name of this country would be
brought into contempt in the eyes of the world.
Mr. BANKS was quite ready to adopt the engges-
tions of the Noble Lord, and withdraw the word nn-
sightly as applied tc the Sicilies, and he would make
his motion to the following effect : An
account of all Ordnance stores returned from that de-
department to any contractor, in the year 1848, for the
purpose of being sent to the Sicilians, in arms against her
Majesty's ally, the King of the Two Sicilies, with the
consent of her Majesty's Secretary of State for 'oreign
Affairs. It the Noble Lord would consent to the motion
in that modified shape, there would be no necessity
to divide upon it, but if he did not, be
must persevere in his motion.
Lord PALMERSTON not assenting to the motion as
amended, strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ••• •••
Against it ...
Majority against the motion
The motion was consequently lost.
The House adjourned at Six o'clock.

... 39
... 124
...-85

MED.
At Brisbane-house, Ayrshire, on the 26th ult., Isabella
Maria, eldest daughter of General Sir Thomas Macdougall
Brisbane, Bart, G.C.8.,
On the 4th inst., at Darent-villa, Westerham, James Han-
sard, Esq , aged 68.
On the 28th ult., at Stevenage, Hertforshire, Mrs. Aire-
ton, aged BG.
On the 28th ult., aged 84, Jasper Peck, Esq., of Temple
Combe, Dorsetshire.

London: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, of
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, is the county of
peLiddloota, Wednevday, March 7, 180.