The Sun.
London, England, 1807-02-05 00:00:00

that may he founded upon it. There would have
been in this no commitment of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, no violation of the privileges of,the House.
If the Noble Lord had insinuated any serious appre-
hensions of public evil from laying'the Paper on t
table;. it would have become his duty to examine
into the grounds of these apprehensions ; and with
the facility which he was sure the Noble Lord
would have afforded him, he was sure be would
be enabled to ascertain whether any teal danger
existed. The resistance now made came in a
shape calculated to realise and confirm any mis-
chief that could possibly flow from the discussion.
It was impossible to discover any sound reason for
refusing the Papers. But it may perhaps be the ob-
jea of the Noble Lord to try bow far his eloquence
and his influence would prevail in despite of reason.;
how far the House would be disposed blindly to sub-
mit its sense and judgment to his opinion. It may
be his objet to shew those around him, and who had
followed him from this side of the House to that,
how far he still expe&ed them to follow him.' It
wa§ as much as if the Noble Lord said to them, you
have heard how I pressed for Papers when we were
on the other side of the House; now, in order to
shew you the versatility of my powers, you shall see
with what firmness I will refuse Papers for the. pro-
duaion of which there are the strongest grounds.
Circumstances are changed—the course we have
hitherto followed is no longer to be pursued, and
I call upon you to spew your faith in me, and to
maintain me in the refusal of the Papers in de-
fiance of all the principles and all the arguments
you have formerly heard from me. There is no
one argutrient to warrant you in such a proceed-
ing, but you will follow still the same standard,
and that is enough to settle every doubt and to satisfy
every scruple. There was another poiut.which it is
still more material 'for the House to look to'; for
such gross abuse of authority could not be long-lived.
The House may be persuaded to sacrifice its rights
in the present instance, but-there would be a. latent
principle in the dereliction which must be fatal to
those who forced it ;' 'for when a precedent was
once established for withholding Papers where Go-
vernment did not approve of the proceedings to
be founded upon them, Negotiation Papers may
be withheld, and the House may be allowed no
means but surmise by which to judge of their con-
tents.. If any apprehension of unwise proceedings
should be entertained, and Papers should be called
for, for the purpose of investigation, the Papers
would be refused, because there, were no grounds,
and the grounds could not be shewn till after the
produEtion of the Papers. He hoped, therefore, that
the House would refled before it would sanaion a
precedent pregnant with such mischievous resalts.—
The Noble Lord opposite had said on a fbrmer
night, that no taunt should drive him from pursuing
-What he held to be his duty on the side of the House
on which he sat, however inconsistent with his con-
du& on 'the other side. On the occasion to which he
alluded, the motion for printing the Army Estimates,
the Noble Lord had to contend against a special prece-
dent. hi the -present instance, he had to contend
against universal usage, for there was not a single
instance before of a Paper of this kind being re-
fused. But it was not with their former principles,
but with their present professions, that he 'wished to
compare the condua of the Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site: how would their condud upon the present oc.
casion correspond with the desire they professed of
giving all possible information, and facilitating every
investigation with respea to their condU6l. The
Noble Lord opposite (Lord H.'Petty) bad stated as
the rule of his condu&, and that of his colleagues,'
the principle of the Roman Philosopher, who wish.
ed to live in a house encompassed with glass win-
dows, so that all his adions may be seen froM every
side. It may now be said to the Noble Philosopher,
there you are in your glass-house, but you are so
much afraid of the glass being broken, that we must
not approach near enough to' look at you—(ii loud
laugh).—His motive for coming forward with this
motion was, the importance of the subjea, and a
persuasion that the measures which had been adopt-
ed were neither so well contrived, nor so well ap-
j-lied, as would be found desirable upon bettercon-
sideration. He would recite the Order of Council,
and then endeavour to point out how far it was de-
ficient. The Order, after , reciting the measures
adopted by the enemy against our trade, then pro-
ceeded to state the measures adopted by us against
the enemy in consequence. It stated a right to re-
taliate to the full amount, in which he perfealy co-
incided; and whatever hesitation persons particularly
conversant with this subjea may have in asserting
or a6ting upon a full right of retaliation, he was
sure the more the point. was examined, the more
clear it would be that we had such a right. If the
violation that had been offered to us were of an
accidental nature, it might perhaps be too severe
to involve neutrals in the mischiefs of a retaliation to
the full amount. But where the enemy had directly
grounded a principle subversive of all the rights of na-
tions, it would be the maddest thing in the world if
another belligerent abstained from adopting the same
principle as the means of defending itself and annoy-
ing its antagonist. France professed not to be bound
by what other nations acknowledged to be their com-
mon law. Perhaps the French Government thought,
that if they professed to be subje& to the laws of
nations, other nations would also be subject to them,

and there would be a restraint which they did not
wish for in this community of code ; for it they
violated the law, other nations would also violate it,

and this would be inconvenient to them ; they
therefore struck out a new line. The Imperial De-

cree charged England with departing from the rights
of nations in confiscating ships and cargoes, the pro-.
perty not of the State, but individuals, and in ex,
tending the right of blockade to ports not a&ually
blockaded, so as to prevent the intercourse of na-
tions The Decree then asserts the right ofretaliatioil,

and declares it tobea law of the empire, that till the

law of blockade shall be made the same on sea as it is

on land, and till private property shall cease to be
considered by England as matter of legal prize, that

is, till we renounce the known right and pra6tice of
war, the British Isles should be held in a state of

blockade, and all intercourse with them should be

prohibited. It was desirable that the measures adopt-
ed by our Government should hot only be approved
by the House, but that thQ reasons upon which those

measures were founded should be satisfaetory. It
was next to be considered, the right being establish-

ed, whether retaliation was wise and politis, and in
what degree it ought to be tarried hito execution.

The Order of Council not only asserted the- right,
but went on to state that this was a proper time to
exercise it. Our right of retaliation wascommensa-
rate to the enemy's offence. The question was, to
'what extent that right should be exercised ? With a
view to determine whether the measures adopted were
calculated to answer their purpose, It was necessary
to know what that purpose was. He thought-the
grand obje& should be, to look for the best means
of counteracting the designs of the enemy, and mak-
ing him feel the evils of his own injustice. Under
these circumstances, he ventured to say, that the
part of the enemy's trade upon which his Majesty's
Government had chosen to exercise his Majesty's
right of retaliation, • was that upon which it could
not operate so as to produce any one advantage to
us, If any, inconvenience fell upon our trade in
consequence of the enemy's decree, the first obje&
should be to remove that inconvenience, atid turn it
back upon the enemy. Stopping the trade from one
port to another could be no benefit to our trade—
The elasticity of commerce itself would prevent any
lasting mischief to our trade from the restrictions of
the.enerisy, but it might be produ&ive of much in-
convenience. Our merchandize would come into
foreign markets at a dearer rate, from the high
insurance tq be paid against risk of capture and
confiscation: Those articles which were already
nearly excluded from foreign markets by their high
price, .would be excluded .altegether by this
Let us look now whether the objeil of making the
enemy feel the mischief of his own injustice is well
enforced. The best mode of doing this was pitting
a stop to the enemy's trade ; and in this resped the
Order of Council was deficient. Was the coasting
trade of the enemy that which it was Most material
for us to hinder ? Their communication from port
to• port was carried •on in swan vessels, which ran
close in shore under cover of the batteries. We
could thus give it little molestation, and in the
worst events the matters which were carried by, it
could be conveyed by land. The wine of Bourdeaux
could be conveyed by laud to supply. the fleet at
Brest. If there was -any branch of trade in which
we could prevent the enemy from being supplied
with an useful commodity, that was the branch to
which our restrielon should have applied. It was
not for him to suggest the fittest branch in this view
—it was enough if he shewed the unfitness of that
which had-been seleded.- But he thought the best
mode of getting rid of the inconvenience cast upon
our trade, and -of injuring the enemy, was to inter-
rupt the intercourse of his colonies, and render it so
perilous and expensive as to give our own commodi-
ties better opportunities of introdu&ion and coalpe-
tition. • This trade was the most easily interrupted,
and its interruption would lead to embarrassment
and distress. It was desirable not to interrupt the
accustomed channels in which Neutrals traded,. and,
the colonial trade was that in wjaich they could be
best attended to. He would abstain from the con-
sideration of particular laws and treaties ; but the
colonial trade was certainly that in which, Neutrals
had the least right ; and while he declaimed every
idea of glancing at the provisions of the -Ameri-
can Treaty, he could not help remarking, that
the right of retaliation for such measures as may
be 'adopted by the enemy, reserved in that
Treaty, was of no use, when it was not a&ed
upon. It was therefore desirable that the Order
should be reviewed, and more effedive measures be
adopted. Perhaps Ministers were fearful of offend-
ing Neutrals, and forbore to a& to the full extent till
they should have had communications with them.—
But they had a&ed without such communications,
and what was to he lamented was, that they had
Aged with inefficiency. Without notification to
Neutrals we may prohibit their ships from proceed-
ing to the enemy's ports, but not seize them. He
trusted Government had not acted so weakly from
fear; it was a motive of adion which they can-
not avow. But when they negotiated with America,
with the Non-importation Mt hanging over their
heads; when they continued negotiating after that
insulting At was carried into execution ; and when
they concluded a Treaty under such circumstances,
whatever they profess, he feared they may have been
guilty of improper concessions. There was no rea-
son to apprehend that Neutrals would blame us for
any measures the Enemy might force us to adopt
with resped to them ; though it was to be hoped
they would feel a just hostility against the Ene-
my who are the primary cause of the evil, and
who force us to retaliate on them -in a manner
that involves some injury to dur friends.—lf the
measures he alluded to were more efficacious, •
why were they not adopted ? But 'they were not
the only measures he would have recommended.
There were measures of dire& retaliation, which.
wonld have the most speedy effed in bringing the
Enemy to his senses. The Enemy has ordered, though
his want of power renders the threat but an empty
boast, that no vessels of English destination or Eng-
lish
connexions shall be permitted to pass freely on
the seas. We may say nothing shall enter France
which shall not first enter here: We may carry
this restridion into execution in the whole or in

park.—We may not prohibit the colonial com-
merce altogether, but we may make the enemy's
colonial supplies enter our ports, and pay a duty
towards the expences of the war, and thus relieve
ourselves by charging him. lithe Paper was produced
he should move a Resolution that the provisions con-
tained in it were insufficient. He should then

leave it to his Majesty's Ministers to re-consider
the measure with the authority of the House
tbr their direEtion, and to adopt measures more

adequate. This being all that he meant ultimately
to move, if he had failed, as he well might, in. sa-
tisfying the House that the measures he suggested
were better than those that had been adopted, he'
trusted he had at least impressed every Gentleman
with a strong sense that the subje& was fit to be en-
tertained.

If Ministers had no better reason than

they had alledged for withholding the Paper, it ought
to be produced, in order that it may be properly
understood, and that more energy may be added if
more should be found necessary._ He should there-

fore move, That an humble Address be presented to
his Majesty, praying, that he would be graciously
pleased to give directions that there be bid beibre
the House a Copy of the Order of Council, of itie

. -
7th of January, relative to the Trade of Neutrals
from one Enemy's Port to another.
The ADYOGATE-GENERAL (Sir JOUN Nr-
cHoLL) was anxious to give his opinion thus early in'
the debate, in, order to keep it as much as possible
distinct from the extraueoui matter which mrintr

were disposed to involve in the cittestion. He would
forbear to follow his Learned Friend through topics
which were foreign to the subject, and many of .11ea1
of a mere personal nature, which would be best ant;
swered by the persons concerned ; and others of st,_
a delicate description, that, consistently with till
public service, they could not now be discussedjt
Rsngth. He was sure that his Learned Friend Was
actuated by public duty in respect to whatever bg
brought forward to the consideration of the House;
but when he proposed to discuss a measure of ware
entrusted to the discretion of MinisterS, subje6t ore
tainly to the revision of Parliament ; and in this in',
stance a measure untried, and liable to be affeaeci
in its execution by the disclosure' ofthe views With
which it had been adopted, he was sure it Would be.
felt on reflection, that the Hon. Gentlemanehad aced
imprudently. He was far from wishing to cast at/
personal refleaion on his Hon. Friend,whose friers
ship he well knew how to value. The House Wo,
generally friendly to Motions for the production
.w
Papers. But the Paper in question contained oidels
to the Commanders of his Majesty'ssCruizers ; and
did his Hon. Friend know of any instance in wilier'
an instruction of war was called for by Parliament,
when it teas just issued by GOvernment A case
should be made out to show that there was
just foundation for a subsequent proceeding before
such a Paper could be produced. It was true the
Paper was in cotfee-houses, and other house's wlict
Newspapers were taken in, and it was diffused arnong
the whole of our Fleets and Cruizers ; but it was not
for the purpose of keeping it from the knoWledge ,
the House that the produCtion of it was resisted;
when it was already perfectly known to every over
and may be discussed this night in the fullest extent,
if his Hon. Friend 'thought proper. But when it
was proposed to interfere with an executive measure,
for the purpose of a Parliamentary proceeding, strong
ground indeed ought to be sheWn for theinterference•
'He would now proceed to the Paper itself, and the
efficacy of it ; and with this'etiew he should consider
it as actually before the House, with the measure
proposed to be adopted upon it. It was not denied
that the French Decree was subversive of the usalr
of war, of the rights of all independent Nations,
but principally of Neutrals. That Decree proceeded
upon false and groundless assertion. It assumed,
forsooth, that there was an impropriety in rnaki4
prize of property not belonging to the State, thoueit
for centuries back commercial property had b:e°
made prize, with a view to weaken the resource
of the Enethy, and .to strengthen oue's (wet.
;There was another falsehood in the _Decree -, tba
assertion that we declared Ports to be in a state 0'
blockade where there was no blockading. force. 1116
Decree proceeds then to declare the British Isle-5
in a state of blockade, and to interdi& all con):
merce with them. His Honourable Friend agreed
that all this was grosSly violating of the -Lad
of Nations. . His Frie6d agreed also in the 01;
right of retaliation ; and Neutral nations could
not deny our right of retaliation, if they sub'
mitted to what the Enemy contrived for tb°
purpose Of distressing us. The question this night
was, how far this right ought to be carried into
execution. Were we to press gild crush unoffending
merchants by the actual execution of severities to tile
utmost extent of the enemy's menace ? -• Re believe/
the House would not go with his Hon. Friend so fit,
but would rather prefer mild and mocieratemeasures
at first, if likely to be efficacioue. It became a greit
arid magnanimous nation to be always moderate ia
the application of its power ; and he was sure the
House would approve of the relu&ance with which
his Majesty's Ministers yielded to the necesssitf
'of adopting measures 'of retaliation upon the one"
my which would involve some distress on Neu"
,trals. It was not denied that some steps in reta-
liation were necessary, and the question was,
far the ships that had been taken wereadequate'
his Hon. Friend said, we ought to have gone tile'
length of interdiaing all commerce with France'
and suggested some measures which the House was
to compare with those of Ministers now carrying lot°
execution. It was necessary to allow a fair trial
what Ministers had adopted. A total prohibition°
all commerce in the produce of the Enemy would b°
attended with the most distressing consequences tc:
the few Powers that remained neutral, and perh3P-
with some mischief to ourselves. Spain, Italy, feel.
land,
,the North of Germany, all the Coast from the
Elbe to the Gulph of Venice, •tvith the exception °f
Portugal, was under the dominion of France, and all
Powers that covered this extent of country Were
leagued with her in the War; oh the other side were
Russia, Prussia, and Sweden, co-operating with 05'
The only Powers that were neutral, were Austri/'
which had only the single port of Trieste; Deninarkk
which hadno means of supplying its colonies, or °
disposing of its colonial produce, if we carried a geci •
neral interdict into execution ; Portdgal, which evoal
feel the same disabilities ; and America, with regPeet f
to which such an interdict would be the means °f
infinite distress. He could discover that a jealousy °E•
America was at the bottom of •all these complainl
But was it to be conceived that we also would 11„c!
suffer by adopting and enforcing a total interd43"
For if we shut the door upon neutral commerce,
we must also shut it, in a great degree, upon °
own. If, the commerce of neutrals with the Coreje,
thient was stopped, we must be totally debarr'
from all access to the.cont;nental market: If.ye e'
trals are deprived of the continental market ''6
°r
,
their colonial produce, they will not have t'ta
means of purchasing from us. America exports to
the continental Nations, but imports chiefly Jr°,
Britain. The commerce of neutrals with our e2,e
mks" was also necessary to us in another view. ne
wanted some of the produce of the enemies' co°'l..
try for our manufattures ; the, silks of Dal'', ,lee
instance, and the wools of Spain. We wanted a lit
of the wines and brandies of France to cheer a,'
comfort us. We wanted the seeds of Holland'...,
e,
France had no maritime power to enforce her ,
cree ; but if her intimidation deterred •Neutr
from coming to us, it would be then timeenoteped
recur to extreme severity. The restriaion of l'4o.
commerce between one Port of the EnemY
,•
another -was the measure of present meta
00.
which it was Conceived would fall heaviest-
,the Enemy, with the least possible annoyance tot te-
,Neutrals. , Much trade was carried on-from Moja.
Port of the Enenny under neutral names. thewder 0.
trade of the Enemy was, in tad, carried-on on to'
t
system of, neutralization. This trade from Nitrais;
Port. of the Enemy, was a trade in which Neiutbel '
were. not concerned in time of Peace. o,oo'