The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-11 00:00:00

IRELAND.

Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE then rose pursuant to
notice to move for a Ci.mmittee of the whole
House to consider the present state of the .tempo-
ralities of the Church of Ireland. The Honourable
Gentleman, he said, the Member for Pontefract, in in.
troilucing the very useful me 'sure he had just brought
before the House, had told the House how difficult it was
for any individual Member to grapple with the
subject of the treatment and the formation of juvenile
offenders. If it was difficult for an individual Member
to bring such a subject before the House, how much
more difficult it was for an independent Member of
Parliament, totally unconnected as he was, not oily with
the Gov, rnuaeta, but with any political party to brill.;
forward the question of which be had given notice fur
this evening. (Hear, hear.) However he might
regret that the great names and ability which
were formerly devoted to the discussion of this
question were no longer available for the purpose,
tt, least he could not be accused of showing any undue
presumption in now submitting it to the notice of the
House.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Whether it was that
the aspect of Irish grievances had been more rink and
offensive to gentlemen on the opposite benenes, or that
the Irish repressintatives m,ielves. as a body, were
indifferent to this subj. ct he knew not, but this qu. s
nion of the Irish Church, which was formerly the gather
ing cry of the Whigs, had been within the list few years
entirely laid aside, and that instrument, on which so
many hartnoiiiouu tunes had hi en played, was now
like the fabulous harp of Tara, hung up mute.
and remained unstrung.—(Hear, hear.) However
Hon. Gentleman differed wiih him on this question.

they would not be inclined to say that it eas
not one of the gravest consideration. Where
the whole eccL siasttcal revenu•s of the countr,
were devoted to one-tenth of the p ,pulation, and ►ha'
one tenth of the people the Protestant minority, an 4
where the religion of the majority in bu
winked at by the State, he could not but think
such a question was iu ittek if worthy the gravest conside-
ration of this House. He thought there was no Member of
that House, who, if even they had to commence legislating
this subject ye novo, would be inclined to take those

funds founded by the auces!ora of the p ior Catholic ma-
jority, and bestow them upon the spiritual education ..f
the rich Protestant minority.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.")
fie should give one of the beat thfinitioni he,
knew of the Irish Church in a very few words..
It was the opinion of a great Conservative
statesman. He arid. " You hava uu acoloriastical

establishment which, though the religion of' tha Prince
and most of the first-class of landed proprietors, vvas
the ra;gion ot the major part of the people," That was
=aid by Burke in 1796. And how stood the case
in 1849? It Wad true tney had corrected
some flagrant abuses, but the evil still existed
In 1823 the question of the temporalities of the Irian
Church was first mooted in that House by that, pioneer
of all modern improvements, his Elonourarde Fria nd
the Member for Montrose. Unlike the generality
of original prj ctors. whose projects were treated
in their time as the off•praigs of political k mpirickni,
he had lived to find them carried out by the leaders ot
both parties, and who, nevetttiel-ss. never laid claim to
them but pursued the " even tuner of his way"—
(Cheers)—and haF pi y ccintinued in pristine strength
and adhered with stern consist. ney to the :wntim-ifts of

his early days.—(Hear, hear.) That motion as sup-
ported by Mr. Ward, the late Member for Sheffield, and
ny the pre-.eat President of the Board of Con rod, and the
Prime Minister. For eight y-ars he c .litinu-il this
curse, at.d Was supported in it by of some of those
tiow in the Cabinet. At length, Lod Al:horp
brought in a Bill on the subject, which aboiished
vestry cess, but the 147th clause, or the appropriation
clause, was in an evil hour abandoned. A remarkable de-
bate ensued, which was fully reported in "Hansard." In
,hos,. days arbitration was much needed, for several Mem-
b. were called out. Mr. Hume and Mr. O'Conn'll up
posed the Bill, and Mr. Stied mad., a ap ech whieh
would never be forgotten. He regretted he did not
`avour the House with apt,ches so often a. the Houss
could wish.—(Hear, hear.) Upon that occasion Dr
Lushington entreated the Muse to adjourn, since
in his experience he had never seen the
decencies of public and private life so much
violated. The Bill was given up. Still. Mr.
Ward persevered in 1835 In 1834 Mr °Vomit-II

had made hk groit m .tion for retold, and h,

was met wilt -an amendment, But it was
desirable to promote all important inprovements. On the
30th of March in that year Lord John Rus'ell braughi
on a motion on the sunject, and the Parliament ot that
dhiy passal the Appropriation Bill. Still Mr. Ward w.-no
on making his annusl motions. In 1843, Mr. Smith
O'Brien, who whatever his f -ults were was an
honest Member of Parliament, brought forward
a motion. In that year the present Chancellor of the
EXchcquer said the first evil of Ireland was the state of
the Irish Church; that in no country of Europe was
~uch an establishment maintained for the nenefit of a
small minority of the pepulation; and he considered it
.he duty of the Goverin.-nt to originate a re.t.edy tor
the evils complained of, and to provide for the settle-
,nent of the question.—(Hear. hear.) The Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland also made a very animated speech
—(A laugh)—on that occ.sion. He (Ar. (Morrie) did
~ot use the term invidiously; he meant that the Right
lion. Baronet was excited. (The lien. Genii- malt
proceeded to read some passages from the speech of Sir.
Somerville, who said, he had heard, but did not
believe, that it was not the intention of the Government
to re. pen the question of the Irish Church, and who
appealed to the Conservative and Christian gentlemen
of England whether, if they were in the situation of the
!Nish potpie, they would submit to that establishment,
uldimg;that he little knew the spirit of the English
fation if they would not resist it.) He (Mr. Osborne)
wished "to ask that Right Honourable Baronet, as a Con-
servative and .ft Christian gentleman, whether he was
new-prepared to resist that Church?e--(Hear, hear, and
a laugh.) The Right Hon. Member-for Ripon also said,.
during the sow. debate, tnat he admired the Irish
Church to be the most important of all subjects—ore
which he feered--lay at' the bottom of all their difficul-
ties: Lord Howick, now Earl Grey, said on the same
occasion, that if they meant to have peace in Ireland
;hey must reform 'the Establish-el Church----(Hear, hear)
—that they must not shirk the question, but must deal
with the property of that Church. On that occasion
seven of the present Cabinet Ministers voted for the
Motion. In 1844, so much afraid was the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government lest the question should
tie taken out of his hands by Mr. 'Smith O'Brien, that
he moved for a Committee to inquire into the state of
Ireland, and a remarkable debate took place. (The
Hon. Member here read passages from the speeches
delivered by Lord J. Russell and Sir G. Grey in the
Course of that debate. The Noble Lord said:—" With
regard to the Irish Church, the system I
should be disposed to adopt would be one
which would put the Established Church, us
regards Roman Catholics and Protestants, upon
"
a footing of the most perfect equality. Sir G.
Grey said that when he was told the question of the
Irish ChUreh was beset with difficulties, he denied them
to be difficulties sufficient to deter a Minister of the.
Crown from dealing with u; and that no hing ap•
neared to him worse, nothing more has irdous, than
'for Parliament to declare that they would not entertain
the question of the Irish Church because it was
beset with difficulties; adding—" The union must be
maintained, but a complete union never can , be effected
so long as the Established and endowed Church of the
minority exclusively exis,s.”—(Hear.) The whole of the
()resent Cabinet, and of the present race of Lords of the
Treasury, and people of that , class—(A laugh)—then
voted, he believed, for the Noble Lero'a motion. The
last time the qeestion of the Iris'i Church had beenalis-
cussed in that House was in 1845, when Mr. Ward
moved are amendment upon the proposition ot the Right
sal miluber for Tamworth with respect to the College
of Maynootb. He did not know how Irish Members would
act upon this occasien, but he could gain an lidding of
the course some of these Hen. Members would adopt
from what had, already taken place. The Hon. Mets.b.-r
f,,,, go4eoinnion had said, that this was not the proper
time tor bringing forward such a auhivot; that it ssould
tend to excite discotd. Now, 'be, found that the Hon._
Gledtleclau bauever; iu the course of his lougrarliamen•

tart' career. given a vote upon the subj.ct of the Irish
Church. He (Mr. o,borite) believed the 11-rrtur.bie
Gentleman had been very much pressed to vote en
the appropriation clause, but he was too much idin
rifled with some high dignitaries of the Church
to voiniuit what would have been a suicidal act 'on
his parr. He (Mr •Osborne) might answer 'hat 1I -n
tna i's ohFctten that this was net the proper time
Oir such is discussion by the 'tbs. rvations made by the
M.0.-ter of the Mint, then Mr Shed—(Litigh-er)—ln
1833. in reply to a similar objection. That Right Hoe.
Gentleman, at*Vr observing that it had been argued that
that was nut the proper time for changing the appropri•
ation of the Church temporalities, went on to say:—
" Not the time I Whin is it to arrive ? Before the
Reformed Parliament it was not the time until the Re-
formed Parliament; here is the Reformed Parliament,
and the time has not yet come. When will it? Warn
the Whigs are in opposition? What: If we are to wait
until their official convenience tallies with the rights of
Ireland, we shall have to wait long indeed."—(Laughter.)
He (Mr. Osborne) hoped the Government did not Intend
to move " the previous question" as an amendment on
his motion. He thought the best definition that could
be given of the present session was, that it had been a
session of previous questions; for on searching the de.
bates he found that in no former session had ' the pra-
vtous question" been so frequently moved. People on
of doors were somewhat puzzled to imagine what the
errvions question meant. It was nothing more than a
Parliamentary el ight of hand, used to cut the ac-
quaintatic, of an old friend who had been usslul in op-
position, hut who might be inconvet.ii-at to a party in
power. He (Mr. Osborn--.) did not regard this as a mere
question of money, but he would have the financial re-
formers of England look about them, and remember
when the tax collector came to the &ars that a great
ut.al alas levied to maintain an army of occupation for
the suiport of the Irish Church. He reg,irdid this as
an impartial qwstion, as well as an Irish question; be-
cause whatever measures they might pass, so long as
they left the Church of Ireland in i.s pre-ent state would
Ireland be not only the difficulty of a r, ttut the
e nbarrassurent.of an empire.—so lung would the Noble
L-ird be justifii d in coming doen to the House ir:d say
as he did in 1844, that Ireland was occupied and
not governed; and so long would lieland remain in the
state so graphically described by tree Hopourabl, Mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire, of social decomposition.—
(Hear, hear.) Referring to the past history ot Ire-
land, the Han. Gentleman observed that the Reforma-
tion in Ireland was carried out on the great Whig prin-
ciple of api•ropriation, the original reformeas caring little
about Irish souls, but a great deal about Irish ptoperty.
—(Loighter.) Cronies-, the Archbishop of Armagh,
denuttheed the reformers as the Socialists of that day,
who under the plea of rel rw wer., plundering and
spoliating the country; and Leland. a Protestant writer,
records in his his ory, that the gross lives of the re-

form, rs constittred a great draw back to the Reforma.
Lin. The history of the Irish Church, in the tune of
Elizabeth, was written in characters td blood, for that
molter, h, though a good ['use) itt, in this country, was a
bitter Presbyterian in Irel,nd; and when Lord Strati: :rd
was expostulated with for his cruelties in Ireland, lie
gave as his excuse that his object was to int:tease the
revenue; so that the. Roman Calla cs were to, bed tor
the advanc.mi nt of Prot.-statitism.—( Hear, and laughter )
The policy of Cromwell was explained by one word—
extermination; and it was in his time that the Irish
Roman Catholics were off red the agreeable alternative
of tied or Connaught.—(Hear, hear.) Li 1688 ant
gained nothing by the English iinporiation of a lluteh
.iontrch but persecuti.,n; and WiTam 111., in his last
speech to Parliament, a :id he !ITO that all distinction*,
in his kingdom would cease except those betwes II
Papists and Protestants. Passing over the various
penal enactments ad,pted, he mentioned as a n-ma, kabie
tact that Bishop Mau& excused them not only as being
tier the security of the Protestants, but al,o for the
benefit of the Catholics. When he refl 'cted on such an
excuse he could nut lo 1p exclaiming—
" W. form ,utos niwiuw, sua at bona norint."
—(Laughter.) In 1723 a Bill was passed—and he
would ettal euge the production from the at nals of any
other country of such an Algerine Act—by a cause in
wtich it was attempted to degrade the Roman Catholics
to a level with the slavish guardians of a Mahometan
harem. They all knew how th.• union was tifected; they
knew that union votes were bartered for Irish bishop-
rics, and how, after a period of 300 years, this Protes-
tant Church in Ireland, notwithstanding its receipt of
great revenue end possession of political supremacy,
stood very ouch in the same perition as at first, though
he granted that the clergy had improved. They might
revile the 1t,,M411 Catholics as beggars, but they could
it taunt them as apostates, for their cretd they had re•
toned through famine, pestiLnce, and persecution; and
Ireland lay ltk L zarus at the gate, whilst the Estab-
iish•-il Church, like 11:v,s, was clothed in purple and fine
linen, the highest orders in the insiitution feasting

:•timptuotiely every thy.—(l-lear, hear.) IL: meant no
✓tfl,ction on the clergy of the lower classes, but he lin-
puoed the system under winch they were ministers.
But it might be said thst there was no pers:cution in
the prest.nt day, and why then make any a4era-
tian when the It arm Catholics were loyal and con-
tented? Was this so unitOrnaly the ease ? Why, he
found the Prot-staot Bishop of Watt‘rn rd stating, in
:,nether place, on the 5,h May, 1849, tnat in the last

year, out ut stpopulstioa of 80,060 Rotnan Catholics in

-a. district, ord:w eighteen perso•,a sp.cial con-
stablrs; while out of a population of 5.000 Protestents
280 persons became special constables. Ile (Ar.
o,borne) therefore came to the conclusion that there
must be something widen prevented the Roman Catholic
population from bAng attached to the pre6ent system.
[he lion. mber here referr, dto a letter writtt nby
Lard Clarendon and read in the House ut Commons lasi
year, relative to the indisposition of the popul (non ii.
certain dis,ricts to support the authorities in their at
tempt to sitl press rem-Ilion, and observed that if he
were to ask those lion. Nletnhers particularly connect, d
with Ireland why this was the case, he was sure their
swer would be, that it arose from tins circumstaace 0.
ul,justice ilevi,r having been done to that c untry ; anti
tram England vensistiog tt alt t,z rds iii maintaining
def.alnity of the Prowstant Churn h.—(tiear, bear.)
lie knew that the-re was a large and respectable party
in Leland who meant by ••justice to Ireland"
identity of institutions in r, spect to Doi h countries. He
totally dissented how that doctrine, which he regarded
44 a tallac). lb.. tnisfortui,e was ih 4 they had endea-
voured to suit the English law and English notiens—
ne result of long ie asperity and of the habits of the
English people as a nimmercial nation—to Ireland. le,
so acting, the G..ve!uulenc took for example the fir..,
political econoinist of ttetiquic.,Procruates, and had en
deavoured at one time, by p, nal laws, to stretch the Ca-
tholic couNcience, a. dat one, her to cut short the means
or the Li h people by regulations applied without re
terence to th--ir r-elings an i ens otni.—([lsar.) It Ws,
most ...xtraorditiar) t.that this pr c•ice was apish. d II Ire
land alone. See. laud ret doted all he r native litsii•uttot.,
civil and criminal. Englatid tried to saddle her .iitt
bench of bishops arid an English Church, but Se-tia,ilit
refused to have them ; end be observe i that 1.230/ a
year was vo!ett to the. Scotch Epise-palian clergy, write'
money no Scotchtnan refus,d to receive, hreiu e, as h
sepp„seel, it was split in the coueetry.—(L iughter.)
The cons. vence of governing Scotland through the
sentiments of nationality and affection was that Scotland
was quite an inexpensive neighbour, and required tb
prest nee only of two thousand soldi. rs at the
existing time.—(Hear, hear.) But, on Ireland An-
glic in laws WI re imposed ; Irelisnel fail not (we
naive ihstitUtion, except the constateulsry, itetroduee d
by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite; it had a tier,
Prote.;ant Church; and while the, Presbyterians receive('
.he Regium l.otrum, the Roman Catholics were ne-gl, cod.
rine Coils-till :we wit‘, that in Is-cland an army was re-
(pored nit 50,000 tn. n. including pensioners and police.
Would it not, 'hen, be more wise to rule Ireland, as
Scotland was ruled, through the sentiments of nationality
and affecti-m? Was this system of Protestant ascen,
worth the money paid l'or it ?---(llear, hear.) Lord
Lansdowne once asked whether Ireland was intended tot
the benefit of the ('hutch, or the Church for the benefit
• f Ireland,auti he(Vir. Osborne) should be obliged if the,
ileum. Secretary would answer that gee:6oll.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) What were the use and objet of
crutch estalkstnuen.? The Prime Minister had ex-
pressed an optiiimi that a church establishment was, ti, t
to m tirrain the offspring of the clergy in weal h, bur.
that it was intended for the spiritual iizstruetion of the
people ; and the Untler•Seeretary for the Home De
pin:meta, in a most Lurie work en the influence

of authority in matters of opinion, expressed the
,entiment that a Government in &tiding she gm's-
tion of endowment must look to the numbers o'
he persons constituting religi us denomiiiatt,un.
The Bishop of London likewise said that the ques
whether a church establishment was to be trk,iin-
rained, was to be only answered by another, pain. ly
whether it impeded or promoted the spiritual improve-
ment of the people? The Hon. iiletnber here said
he to ilice the question on that. ground, and
observed4swiijig
tihat'it was curious to see, when the expan.iv.
n store of Protest.intism was talked about, how the Ito•
man Cath,ities had progressed and how the Protestants
had dintinish.,l in Ireland, under the influenee tit tto
Establishel Church. He here referred to ditlerent ac•
counts of the proportionate amount or the Roman Ca
tholic and Protestant populations in Ireland at verities
periods since 1672 to 1841; t;bserviil that during that
space of time the Roman Catholics had increased as 7 to
1. He proceed,A to say tat it also appear, d from the
report of the Commissioners of Public Instruction ill
1837. that there were 99 benefices with le.s than 20
Protestants in h; 124 benefices havirg between 20
one
and
jersottae in and 41 benefices without
hear.) A most fallacious
*ay of viewing this question of the amount of Pro-
testants in Ireland was to refer to the report of the
amount of church sitt'ngs in .hat coun.ry ; for m th,
church which he attended the number tit sittings was put
down at 200, though ends 25 persons attendeit.—(Hear )
I, the diovese of Lism- re there acre .everal t,aristie. ii•
.Rich th re we-re no I'm 't• slap s, aid 111 on,- par 81) the

paid to 4 vet), tine pirl.—(Louen •
rect.mal tithes w. re
er ) In anoth r place (Churchtown, we understo. d the
Hon. Nletnbtr to sai) the rector went to church to preach
one day, and he tout,d a gth).r. hatching .ggb in :he put
pit.—(Renewed laught. r.) In the diuce.e 01 Usury it
alight be expected that more Protest4nts wou d be fount,

there, as, with the exc. priori of two krge estutPs, th,
property there was held ixelthively by Protetants; but
Mr. Sergeant Shee, in his t "On Vie Church of
It nue in Ireland in relation to the Stat,," relattd that in

- incumbency of Calla], )ietding 2,1971. a year, hr
observed that the chapel of the Rev. Mr. Mulhogs and
the chapel of the Augustin Fraaliwere fully atonded,
but that the corset...gage's in the pari.h, church consisted
of 87 persons only. noisy us thep, chiloren, and 10 st.l
abr. qu'irteied in the WA n, and who could not be tdten
as forwing part of the regulsr
hear.) The lion. Gentleman said, that Jur the bEntitual
care of the 853,000 Prk.t,siants in Ireland, there w re
established -two Archb:shops, ten Bistiops, and 2 770
clergy. The vulue of the Archbishopric of Armagh
was more than-12,0001., and of: the,other Archbishopric
above-' a year. The -Biebop vf Oithor had

8 0001., and the Bishop of Derry coont, and the elagY
genieredy the enormous sum of 688 8381. .tie did
not reckon in that value the palaces and park. tor we
hi.hops, or the gli be-houses for the clergy. By anoth.r
return he tound that the total church lanes in Ir,llasd
amoureed to 776 384 acres, which 'teethd give a veil
large annual rental at only 11. per acre rent BesilP:
oil, he ( Mr. Osherne) liked up ei Dublin reieetsll/
a- being a branch, or an internment of the Chursb•
l'heen there was t be conselered the matey bolo
3 000.0001., we understeod) edveneed by Perhanwat
-,trace the union.—(Hear, hear.) " But," said an Penis'
Gentleman the other night, taking the argument of I""
Primate of Ireland, whose word he represented as better
than another man's oath, "Itis a delusion, a claptraP'
to call the Irish Church wealthy; divide the property
equally- among the 2,200 clergy, and they would bare 11
but 2001. a year apiece." The curates were never cell
upon in the regulation of church revenue—(Hear, heat)
—but when the object was to make out the Church Pa'
verty-stricken then we heard of them—(Hear, hetir)"
and an expectation was raised which it was never
tended to fulfil, and the cry was, " See what it will be
if these [emir fellows get their rights"--which the pat'
ties had not the must remote idea of giving theta;
(Hear, hear)—making the statement merely to delude
the Reuse; he (Mr. Osborne) did not mean to say that
of the Hon. Member, but he believed the Primate'
in spite Of hie respectability, did purpose to delude the
public.—(Hear.) But was that the proper way in which
to put the question ? Was not the right question this
5
what was the nscessity for having there 2,000 cleriP;
men, and whether it was nut highly expedient that th,
number should be 'educed. to the level of the wants 0'
the people ?—(11-ar, hear,) In France, with sou?, •
30,000,000 of Roman Catholics, the revenue of the':
Church was about 1.500,0001. The Presbyterol
Church of Scotland, which Adam Smith described!
Ines, effective iu improving the morals of' the peep'!"
hat 58,000/. a year in his time, and had now nesrii,
200 000 E. ; but would than give 2001, a year to each tie
ni=ter ? In Ireland, for 800 000 Protestants, there wett
1,643 benefices, a staff of 2200 ministers, with s 0,0
pt ,IviSion of 680,0001., and for the ministers of t)
7,000,000 of Catholics nothing at all.—(Hear, be!! j'
Was nest the exclamation of Lord Carlisle justt's
'hat there was la Church without faith, clergy with be
flocks, the worst gains of the sinecurist kept up upon ta
worst principles .of the bigot ? There was a maten
difference bet :seen " a good Protestant" in England se
v
in Ireland. In England that term meant a
an
man," who went to church, gave alms, and conduct
hirns,lf in a decent respectable manner.—(A laugb:s;
In Ireland " a good Protestant" was a phrase ar
plied to a man who continually reviled the Roman Cap
thoic faith. In Elizaaeth's time the " good ProtestO -
call d massacre end spoliation planting religion and.civi;
lizstion; under the Commonwealth he was a man. Wiled
would bring back the terrors of the Old Testament ail,
totally forget the mild doctrines of the New; after
Revolution he added another article to the Thirty-nn/a
—" The glorious, pieus, and immortal memory." PenPos
who would probably hardly find one other point
which they 'wren d joined in hating Popish doctrines al;
loving Popish property—(A laugh)—and these desee
dents of Cromwell 's troopers and William's mercer r
aa
ries, in the present day, wrapped up their cause with
ee
Established Church in Ireland.--(Hear.) In Lunch r,
the question of the property of that Church, he („0
Osborne) was aware that he should be told it "a:
sacred. That was always so; but this cry of " sac
lege" was set up at the Refortnation *irh much belt.,
pretext than new. M. n somehow confounded thiir
ritual convictions Kith their worldly interests.—(Hey'
But there wa• no awsloey between coreorate and plc],
property. So said Lord Chancellor Brougham, to
tog that the Church received its property for the eel'
tormance of ct.rtain services, whereas private pron
was held unconditionally, and that toe pay of the nr":;,
might as well be cill- d inviolable, as that of the Chlil
Mackintosh might also be quoted.- Warburton Ist
down that the state might resume ',bat the state Est
No. Minister had ever stated in that House that 1",.0,
was an analogs between corporate and private proPe7s6
—(hear, hear.) now were the precedents? Is 'bid
Parliament took the tithe of agismente—in 1833 abotth'pl
vestry cess and ten bishops. Why not go a step furfr-tr
—(hear, hear.) In Canada, after the rebellions''
ed
happily we never did any of these things till ,blood Pio
floeed—(Hear, hear) —we took the clergy reserves' the
though by Act of Parliament they were devoted t° ae
Protestant Church, part of them was now given for
sustenance and payment of the Roman Catholic ele's
,50
And who consented to that? The Right Hon. Melon)
for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) and Tamworth (Sir R. r7el
‘sitd the Bishop of London. Let the precedent be apP de,
to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) An objection would be Wad
based upon the s:h article of union. Surely it was 0110
ill-advised and impolitic thus to hold out to the Roa/e
Catholics of Ireland a premium to induce them ill
agitate for the repeal of the union.—(Hear.) lilt to
tact, that article merely said that the two Churches "pd
io be united in government, discipline, and faiths i7cla
made no mention of the temporalities of the Irish C,bile;
ol
011,
aed contain: d not one word which prevented Parham e
from interfering will' that Church, which was a thirliso
:heir own creation. Even if it did, we had alresdYlei
tared the 4th :Article; was the sth mere-sacred? arif
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) really disposed Toe
~pint, when he asked, " It we are convinced that ta
eta' welfare of Leland requires an alteration of the 00 tr.
and a departure from the compact, are our len'5e
functions to be so bound up that the compact is ,0
bPa
maintained in spite of our convictions?" ad-ling teisor'i
for one, had never been prepared to say that.—(s a
cre.
I.c might perhaps be insist, d that we ought not to Oats
fere with the temporalities of this Church, because 01'
lend the : xclusive possession of religious truth.
gunnel% to use the words of an Hon. Gentles on 'Ail°
:israrli), was " an organized hyt ourisy." It the 110-,tlo
was good for anything, why not extend it to Cil.oa, doe
Punj iute Malta, Labuan, and carry your dogmatic oil'
logy, there ? But with more wisdom than since
'nen shrunk from the application of tbeir arglifiV
'
which would dismember this mighty emeire, in oat
very • very race c aimed toleration for its creed•-• 1 se
,rear.) We heard much talk of " Protestant prinaojet,
What dal gentlemen wean by the term? Did they ler
perm-cut:oe? Then he (Mr. Osborne) was Ho 11q,01
tans.—(Hear) It there was one Protestant prinelP
,htluld do well to act upon, it was that which wasa
:eel-toed at the Reormation, and CO which we oWe
y
• ur liberty—the right of private judgments—At
tie did not see how those who talked so loudly of
el
could say that we Protestants had exclusive religee
rutti —(dear, hear.) He had now to ask the 801 l oi
go in o 'undue° "to consider the present state 0` Oil
temporalities of the Church of Ireland." He wag r(
doing so with the view of abolishing it. All use,fatiesf'
eines mutt be feuded mutual compromise.--viir
iertr.) Neither did he wish to interfere with the '''loo
eirs rigtes or vest' d interests of the present inctionoo,
-(11.• at-. he it.) But he asked the Lioitse to Vesel
tee for the u:p .se of seeing if tin Y ;00"
devise a plan by which the- congrsgational 5) steal
rite carried nor in Ireland instead of the territerter/
(Hear, hear.) In one diocese •Ri Eiigktid—Che6,ol#
.ine bishop till lately presided over 1,500,000 or F,
iietensing to the Eeteinkhi d Church; in Ireland It
crehb,shops cud t: u bishops preswed over 800.00' /01
Eitelenid there was one bishnp to 412 benetic 5. ittf
t.nd to 138. He had no. wild or visionary schen;oool
,aanc;dh.r_e(l,u.F(c)lueeladrt,rhloeetatreilpleuilgs,hnh.eiptle,etigoinhfiot ,r,s7sritii.,t,nlo:o,,,,,roirl
propose; he would have one archbishop with .oOu'i
a reaarr.
(Sir G. Grey)
.lesrd J. Russell tied the House in 1844' the
eeneur in the plan pronounced by Dr. Wheielf;€ol
Archbishop of for making the Irish Clll3ibhl
church of congregations, not parishet;" addin,,it:to,P;
though he thought the Protestaet Church oug'",,
fully provided for, he did not believe that anyth'ljeljer",l
the amount now allotted to it was necessary.--%0
hear.) He (Mr. OA:sine) also proposed to lay °atio'
able the' following resolutiun:—" That it is the °P met
of this Committee that any surplus whinbirittla
remain after fully providing for the aPatf
instruction of the members of the Established (-1
in Ireland ought to be applied lee/LW:lle
the general education of all classes of the Pee eetrol
(Hear, hsar.) He had only to add, that he went!'"
tete I
, eke Government not to think that the present s-,000,
Ireland was one which afforded them any great P,slo:,
satisfaction. Much had been heard from them D's
in opposition of large and comprehensive measur"oo),
're passed fur Ireland; but what had they done? d
ad suspended the Habeas Corpus Act and alterehottr
m ,
Poor Law; and taking the example of the man ''' di)",
.leavoured to teed a starving dog with the pronuee,dg J.'
,ten till, they had passed a rate in aides-(A led",
-chry hid lately otteined a bloodless triumph, art;:pri
agitation, and partite zu,g all political feeling tor t tlfaj
sent in that country.; but. let them not imagin&
dialing down the tumult raised by a mad enthusia
iitkor aA ay the feelings and se mpaehies of the 13,n;ie /o
(Bear.) Let them not be d away with the I°fa de
lie--(
• e present dull silence, proceeding from famine lion/
i.pair, was the result of happiness and content. be?
tee them not urge "than tide is not the time( let
teat
deuce, seize an op;°nullity presented to them h): aet
deuce, and boldly put this question, which they ma
reiry
kild over again said lay at the root of Irish hearthneine
,ind discontent, on a footing which their former ter
tion demanded.—(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS seconded the motion. ° '0
Mr. MOORE Paid that he was bound by his oat,,d
nothing to subvert the Church as by law establis',oo;
Ireland. The Hon. Member, after adverting fro 00
length to the provisions of the Catholic oath We°,
position of the Established Church in Ireland, °ast;
to say that the present was no new subject. It 010
old as the causes which gave it birth. He had 11',.4
speeches of all the distinguished men of the prese"dised
en the subject of the Irish Church, and it had billed'
him that not one of the wen to whom he had
had ventured to maintain that the success of that
00.7 tbe
f
hmt beeu commensurate with its objects. II oethe
Alluded to the ape, eh of the Right Gent°o- did
inter 'or Ripon (Sir J-mes Graham ) in 183-'OOIIIA
the speech of the Hon. Member for Oxford, oleo
how tettni,aii.ed that church property was tile ef ofeil
private Property. Were the present a question ne,,
millions of mi n living seven thousand miles rArn eorli
night be de-alt alto differently, but the questlinvorload
ci reed seven millions of in: n at their doors, endrey
et much question of humanity as one of P,?
just c•'. The prosperity and the peace 01
illenti
eueht to be otj. et, of the most serious itOP-oreel,
and he believed that nothing could exceed the elirco:9
of the abuse the Irish Church. They had iops,o4
versed any part of the nation in their attempt wcceeu 1'
the Catholic Church in Ireland. They never 11°0 ree°4
in waking proselyte:;, although armies were putil 010
„T,., „, hut,. districts had been depopulalea'pertity
he heard lion. Gentlemen defending Church Pl:cleir 1311lr: Wee e ceole net elp aeking whether, if silos
was as clear as it was vicious, they could showol.o.o
particle ut to their present Church WO „Jena
the Isere M. tele r tna n on on to show t"..e
~,11/
riportion which the Protestant population there
Catholic in the several provinces in Ireland. „,,:ahr
paid tithe in eight parishes ill the dipole QUAI"I-