The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

SUN.

! gets the money, but a change takes place, and he can pro-
cure loans at a less interest. He therefore borrows 10,0001.
first pays of 5,0001. of the original mortgage, and then comes
to the other and tells him, you most be paid off, or must take
only four per cent. interest for your money, 'for I have fulfilled
the conditions of our contract. Would not the man object
that the mortgage had only been paid off by contracting another
debt ? If the case were really put to the. Noble Earl on the
Woolsack as a judge, he would certainly take some time for
consideration, or at least to read the papers. Now the pre-
sent Bill was not yet printed, and he (Earl Grey) was Obliged
even at that moment to speak of it without having read it. All
lie claimed for the public was merely to allow time to consider
the case in all its details ; and not to admit that as a right which
might be doubted. He protested against a mode of arguing
the question, which he was astonished to have heard from the
Woolsack, that the House were to be guided in their decisions
by the public opinion. As to the redemption of the Land
Tax, he doubted whether it was a real or constructive fulfil-
ment of the engagement entered into with the Five per Cent.
Stockholders, and an effective reduction of the public bur-
thens. The Noble Earl then contended that the 16th clause of
the 37th of George 111. referred to the 25th of George 11.
with respect to the manner -in which Stock should be re-
deemed, and therefore'placed the Five per Cents. on the same
footing, as to the necessity of one year's notice, as the Three
per Cents. All he stated was doubt, and all he required from his
majesty's Ministers was time to consider the measure. He had
no personal interest in the question. All that he desired was fair
and open dealing. tl ith respect to the 2d point, that of Dissent,
the Noble Earl opposite had stated that the mode which he had
proposed was supported by several Parliamentary precedents.
It would have been well if the Noble Earl had looked at the
precedent established by Mr. Pelham, when he paid off a part
of the Four per Cents. It was not the actof dissenting that was
required ; but the dissents were to be regularly entered in a
book, and their authors became liable to be paid in the order
in which they had been inscribed. Was this early payment
meant as a threat or a reward ? Whichever it might be, it was
a proceeding unworthy of the Minister of a great country to
propose, and of the dignity of the House to adopt. Whether
the registering of Dissents were intended to place the dissent-
ing individual in a better or a worse situation, it was inequally
unjust, as they all stood, or ought to stand on the same ground
of equality. Was it intended to make any change in the value
of the stock which they possessed ? An impression . prevailed
among the public, that those who should be paid off first,
would be subject to some disadvantage, and many held off en-
tering their dissent on that account. The authors of the meta,
sure might conceive themselves entitled to credit for their dex-
terity, a quality to which, a more deserved, though a less fa-
vourable name, might be applied. But he was not much dis-
posed to admire this dexterity in money transactions.—They
ought to be conducted with openness, fair dealing, and sim-
plicity. All other course was unworthy of the adininistration
of a great country. Dexterity was the virtue of the gambler,
who took advantage of his antagonist, in order to make unfair
gains ; but it was likely to recoil on those by whom it was
used. He believed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
find sonic persons at the Stock Exchange, differing from him
perhaps in religion, who would be still abler at the game. It
was objected to his (Earl Grey's) proposal for delay, that delay
might occasion stock-jobbing. He had known of many Go-
vernment transactions which bore that character, but lie,
could perceive no inconvenience likely to arise from delay,
especially if the pictures of general prosperity displayed by
the Noble Earl were more real than those with which for so
many years he had flattered the country. Ilad any man of
gloomy imagination announced, that after enjoying for forty
years the Government of the country, after having possessed
all the means necessary to effect their plans, and after having
succeeded, as they told the world, the country would be
plunged, after seven years of peace, in its present state of
distress, and hopelessness, he would have been considered as
grossly exaggerating the possibilities of the future. With
respect to the peaceful policy adopted by this country, no
one could 'be more disposed to support it than himself. But he
did not forget that it was the year after Mr. Pitt had postponed
the redemption of the Four per Cents. in the conviction...that
PUP 'Shwa eoilimeiice between Russia
and Turkey, that it would be possible for this country to main-
tain a state of peace.- But when he considered what that war
must be—when' he looked at the situation of Spain and Italy—
when he saw all the people of Germany dissatisfied with the
governments which, in violation of our solemn engagements,
we had assisted our Allies in establishing—when he looked at
the State of France under a dynasty which we had imposed
upon her, he could not indulge any very sanguine hopes that
the peace of Europe should not he disturbed, and that we
should not be involved in hostilities. On the 12th of March,
within a fortnight or three weeks of the probable opening of
the campaign between Russia and the Porte, his Majesty
having engaged to interpose his good offices between them, and
the deciding day having almost arrived, all that the Noble Earl
was able to say, was that if he had to advise the King in
making another speech, he would recommend the same lan-
guage to be used on those. important topics, as on the first
day of the Session. Ile (Earl Grey) had never heard any thing
less calculated to remove alarm. The Noble Earl hoped that
this country would not be involved in war; but was it possible
that war should break out between Russia and Turkey, with-
out deeply affecting the interests of those who were the objects
of the present measure? For God's sake then let delay be
granted, unless it be wished to entrap those individuals into
ruin. And should, on the contrary, the Noble Earl's asser-
tions of secitee and increasing prosperity be correct, delay would.
be found to have clone no harm. Theis, lie thought, were ar-
guments for granting further time for consideration before the
Bill passed into a law. The explanations given on some points
had not removed all doubts, and none whatever had been af-
forded respecting the registering of Dissents. Further time
was therefore indispensably necessary. Ile repeated that he had
-no interest whatever in the matter, save that the House should
consider the subject in such a manner as to put the measure
on clear and intelligible grounds,and to shew that it was found-
ed on undoubted right.
The Earl of BARROWBY claimed the attention of the
House for a few moments. Without adverting to all the topics
introduced by his Noble Friend, he might be allowed perhaps
to say, in answer to the arguments of the Noble Earl, that
it was no proof of desperation in the affairs of the coun-
try, - that Government were able to effect a reduction of
.1,500,0001. of the public debt. If that was a symptom of
distress which ought to lead to despair, he was at a loss to
consider what was the sign of prosperity. The Noble Earl
then observed that he was ready to apologize for offering
any thing on the law of the question, after the decisive opinion
given by the Noble and Learned Lord, whose opinion must
always be received with the respect of that House. If
that opinion was not sufficient to remove the doubts of the
Noble Earl, nothing he could say would have weight. He did
not endeavour to give a legal opinion, but would state what had
been the impression upon his own mind. The Noble Earl
looking at the 26th of Geo. 111. contended that the Five per
Cent. Stock had not been redeemed, because a new debt was
created. The Noble Lord would however find that the Acthad
no reference to the mode Of redeeming the public debt. When
25,000,000 of the public debt was paid off, the Five per Cents.
were redeemable. It could not be reasonably supposed that
Government could pay off so large a sum without contracting a
'new debt, The Sinking Fund Act gave powers which could
not interfere 'with the 26th of the late King. It had always
been understood in the market, that the Five per Cents. were
'redeemable, or they never would have remained so low ; and he
eotildnot see how the proposed redemption was not a bona fide
transaction, when it was generally acknowledged to be the
terms upon which the stock was to be paid off. There was cer-
tainly nothing unfair in the mode of paying off the dissents.—
Unnecessary delay would lead to more stock: jobbing than had
ever been known perhaps in this country. With respect to the
question of foreign policy, if Government were of opinion hosti-
lities would occur, it might be proper to suspend the Bill until
the result was known ; but seeing the two Powers had been 12
months negociating, and that they were unwilling to go to war,
there could be no pretence for suspending the Bill. If Govern-
ment were right as to the law, and the terms fair, they ought
to conclude the transaction immediately. The plan would
enable the country to afford relief upon a scale which financial
prosperity required.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH was anxious to express his doubts
on the question. He found he could not conscientiously agree
to the second reading of the Bill.. He was desirous of more in-
formation on the question whether the operation of the Sinking
Fund was at variance with the 26th George 111. The Noble
Lord, in the view he then took of all the provisions of the
law, was induced to consider the Five per Cents. not redeem-
able. He not think any doubt could arise on the words of
the Act of George 111. but it might be argued that 25,000,0001.
were not paid off the public debt. The Noble Lord who last

• •.

PRICE. SEVENPENCE.

addressed the House said, it had been .geaterally: understood
that the Five per Cents. were redeemable, witeiv .25,000,0001.
of: the public debt were. paid- off e- but the lionse certainly
would not take advantage• of that -understanding, if it was
founded in mistake. s If any doubt had arisen,. the stockholder
ought to have:the benefit of it. He was not able to come to a
conclusion without the doubt was cleared away. Their Lord-
ships had the power of calling on the. Learned ,Judges, who
would decide the point. It was not necessary to postpone the
Bill, because after the opinion had been obtained, the standing
orders might be dispensed with for the purpose of carrying
the measure through the House. The Noble Lord concluded
by again stating that he was .not satisfied that the Five per
Cents. were redeemable bylaw.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was satisfied the' right of
redemption did exist on the part of his Majesty's Ministers,
and that the statute of George 111. had been complied with.
The Noble Marquis was not desirous of_' detaining the House
on those points, but at the same tithe he thought it would
be desirable to have the opinions of the Learned Judge*.
After stating the impression upon his mind with respect
to those points, he was bound to state his objection •13
the form in which the dissents were taken. The Noble
Earl, President of the Council, said it was a matter of indif-
ference how persons expressed their dissent. Ile differed
from the view taken by the Noble Earl, and Was satisfied
the Stockholder was entitled to the most equitable mode of
treatment. According to the present arrangement, they im-
posed on the Stockholder that which he must consider disad-
vantageous and compulsory.. The. alternative offered by Mr.
Pelham was more favourable. The Noble Marquis had heard
no argument against delay which might enable persons to make
up their minds, and come to a satisfactory conclusion. Delay
would be the most favourable course not only for the .Stock-
holder, but for the public ; because no loss could accrue to the
public between that time and the sth of July. His doubts on
the other parts of the Bill had been solved by the Noble and
Learned Baron.
The Bill was then read the second time, and committed for
to-morrow.—Adjourned.