The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-20 00:00:00

on which the Hon. Gentleman touched requires much a ing pensioners in subordinate situation% a n
as carriers,
more comment. The Hon. Gentleman objected to what messengers, Ske ,in the public departments; and
he called the system of using troops to keep down holding out such a prospect after a certain number of
good
the peo;_le, and s till that the principle had been for years' service would not be a great inducement for
the first time avowed by my Right Hon. Friend the wen to enter the army and to behave well whilst
Secretary-et-War (Mr. F. Mettle). Now I heard what were in it?
my Right Hon. Friend said, and I certainly heard no- Mr. F. MAULE said the Hon. Baronet was perhaps
thing from him to such an effect.—(Cheers.) My Right not aware of the number of pensioners who were already
Honourable Friend stated most truly that during the employed in the public service on account of their having
past year there, had been many applications—the greater been eischargsd with a good character. Many were,
part of them from the mercantile towns—not by the employed by private individuals, and every year he '
re-
military, but by the civil authorities, for troops to pre- ceived applications from pensioners to be exempt from
serve peace and order.—(Hear, hear.) But were enrolment, on account of the 12 days' service which was
those troops to keep down the people ?—(Hear, hear.) required interfering with the appointments they held.
By no means. They were to keep down a certain As to the general question of holding out the prospect
number of ill-conditioned and disaffected persons who of small places to them as a reward of good service, it
wished to commit disorder, to promote tumult, and pro- was rather for the consideration of the Chrncellor of
bably to gain an opportunity for plunder, and with whom the Exchequer than of the Secretary-at-War.
it is a libel and a calumny to confound the people of this A vote of 19,0001. on account for superannuation al.-
country.—(Great cheering.) The Hon. Gentleman lowances was then agreed to.
asked why should not the municipal authorities have NAVY ESTIMATES.
power to embody special constables to keep the peace? Mr. WARD proposed to obtain votes for the excess in
They are at full liberty to do so. and may swear in special the navy estimates.
constables tomorrow if they please, but it is atter they Mr. HUME protested against proceeding with so im-
have sworn them in, and wish to support them, that they portant a matter at this time of night (twelve o'clock).
make application for the military in order to enable the The House had voted 20,0004. (tic amount of the esti,
special constables to do their duty. Ia fact, the state of mate last year, for the expense for arming and enrolling
society has changed from the time when every man was the artizans of the dockyards ; and the excess in this
ready to arm himself, and to go out into the streets to item was no less than 52,000 L, the expsnditure incurred
keep the peace of the town. The great mass of the being 72,0001. He requested that this vote might be
people in towns are now accustomed to follow peaceable postponed until Friday, in order that be might bring the
occupations, and to look to other forces to enable the subject before the House.
peace of the town to be kept, and if you refuse them all Sir F. BARING was understood to say that the votes
military assistance, and if they were to be harassed week could not be postponed, but,
after week, and night after night, by being called out After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP,
to do the duty of special constables, it would give rise to Mr. WARD consented to take a vote on account, in
great discontent, and to numerous complaints of the order that the Hon. Member for Montrose might have
Government ot the country.—(Cheers.) In effect, there- the opportunity ho required.
fore, when we call in the troops under such circumstances, Mr. S. HERBERT said be was anxious to set right
it is not to keep down the people, but to defend the ma- an error which he bad inadvertently committed on Fri-
jority from the minority—(Hear, hear)—and to protect day night. when the navy estimates were last before the
the great mass of the well-affected against the smaller House. He had received a letter from Mr. Green, of
number of the turbulent—persons not well contented, the firm of Wigram and Green, stating that he (Mr. S. '
and boys, and others very often hardly connected with Herbert) was wrong in attributing the lines of their
the towns, but who, if there was not some assistance vessels to any person but themselves. Mr. Green stated
given to preserve order, would not only be very mis- that he had not borrowed the lines of the Inconstant for
chievous, but commit serious injuries on private property. any of their vessels, nor had he ever seen the lines of
—( Hear, hear.) I thought it necessary to defend my that vessel.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. S. Herbert) had
Right Hon. Friend, and not only this Government but made the statement with the conviction, at the time,
the general government of the country, from the that it was perfectly true. He had heard it from a naval
statements of the Honourable Gentleman. (Hear, officer of distinction, who enjoyed the friendship of Ad-
hear.) Nothing can be more unfounded than miral Hayes; and he had heard the statement so fre-
the statement that the military force of this country quently asserted that he thought he was quite justified
is maintained to keep down the people, and I am in mentioning it. H 6 was the more anxious to make this
very sorry that the Hon. Gentleman, knowing as he correction as it was so greatly to the credit of Mr. Green
must do the history of his country, should have lent his that he should build vessels that were liable to be taken
authority to assertions which, if generally believed, for men-of-war.—(Hear, hear.)
could do nothing but mischief among the people.—(Loud A vote on account was then taken.
cheers.) The Hon. Baronet who addressed the House THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.
(Sir W. Molesworth) pointed out many instances among Mr. GLADSTONE wished to know whether the
our colonies where a reduction might be made in the Noble Lord intended to go into Committee on the naviga-
number of troops, and referred, among others, to the case Lion-laws on Friday? He believed the report on the
of the lonian Islands, where he said the force might be resolutions in supply was fixed for that day, and there
very greatly reduced.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to was one vote on which some discussion might take place.
some of these there may be instances where too great a Lard J. RUSSELL said, that if the resolutions in
number of troops are maintained, but lam quite sure my supply appeared likely to lead to any long discussion, he
Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies watches would postpone them and take the navigation-laws the
anxiously for every opportunity by which he may reduce first thing.
the troops, when practicable. I really think, however. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered
when the Hon. Baronet made these remarks the object to be received to-morrow (this day).
he had in view was different from the object of the Go- The Passengers Bill was read a second time and or-
vernment. We are in possession of a great empire, which dered to be committed.
has been transmitted to us by our forefathers. The LARCENY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
Hon. Baronet only thinks of the way in which it may be On the question that the Larceny Acts Amendment
diminished. If you will only take away from what you Bill be read a second time,
have, instead of occupying a larger territory—if Major BLACKALL said there was no reason for di-
you will only withdraw your commanders and officers— minishing the punishment in cases of larceny merely on
no doubt your military forces may be made very much the ground that the commission of such offences had
less, and, instead of 89,000, as proposed by the Hon. become more frequent than formerly. In conformity
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), you may reduce with the wishes of some Hon. Members who represented
them to 49,000 or 39,000.—(Cheers.) But then our ob- Irish constituencies he felt some desire that the present
jccts are different. Oars is to maintain the empire we stage of the Bill should be postponed.
have inherited from our ancestors in all its integrity.— Sir GEORGE GREY said that the Bill did not relate
(Cheers.) If once you say your object is to diminish it, exclusively to Ireland, but unfortunately transportable
to make it smaller this year than it was the year before, offences had greatly increased in that part of the United
and take it away bit by bit, you may ot course go on Kingdom, and even in Great Britain they had mildly
till you reduce it to the limits of this island.—(Cheers.) increased. It bad really become neaessara to make some
That may be an economical experiment, but it is not one distinction between the lighter and the graver class of
in which I should be willing to embark.—(Cheers.) My offences.
belief is, if you give any signs of shrinking from your Mr. MILES would not, at all events, vote against the
duty of preserving the empire committed to your protec- principle ot a measure which had received so much ten-
don. that though you may have no enemy now you would sideration elsewhere.
find soon enough you had enemies who would demand Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said that such was the state
something from you that you in honour could not grunt, of Ireland that the punishment of imprisonment could
and the result would be that instead of such estimates not be inflicted with any advantageous t ffect.
as those before you we should be obliged to ask for war The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to
estimates.—(Loud Cheers.) be committed.

Mr. MAITLAND moved that the following Members
bo the Committee on the Registering Births, &c., and
Marriage Bills (Scotland): —The Lord Advocate, sir G.
Clerk, the Earl of March, Sir Henry Davis, Mr. Elliot,
Sir David Dundas, Viscount Melgund, Mr.
Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland, Mr. Forbes Mac-
kenzie, Mr. Cumming Bruce, Mr. Traill, Mr. Forbes,
Mr. Duncan, and Mr. Smollett.
Mr. LOCKHART objected to a Committee so selected,
on the ground that it contained no Members for any of
the principal cities or for any of the larger counties of
Scotland.
Mr. HUME hoped the Government would reconsider
the names proposed on this Committee. It was very
unusual that the Lord- kdvocate and the Solicitor-Gene-
ral should form a part of any Committee upon a Bill so
much objected to as this measure was in Scotland.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE observed, that the constitution
of the Committee was a condition on which the Bill had
been allow, d to be read a second time.
Mr. F. ALIULE said the Lord-Advocate had left
town on the understanding that the Committee awned
by his lion. Friend the Solicitor-General tor Scotland
would be assented to. Both the Crown law officers for
Scotland were named upon the Committee because it
was probable that they might not be in town at the
same time, and it was uncertain which of them would be
able to attend.
Mr. lIUME had no objection Ito both those officers
being placed on the Committee if it was understood that
only one of them should be present at a time. He
begged to move that the name of the Lord-Advocate be
omitted, and that of Mr. A. Mastic substituted.
After a few words from Mr. DuNcasz,
The House divided, when there were—
For Mr. Hume's amendment 4
Against it
Majority
On the question that Mr. Elliott be a member of the
Committee,
Mr. LOCKHART proposed that the name of Mr.
Hastie be substituted.
Mr. HUME recommended the Hon. Gentleman, after
the result o the previous division—(A laugh)—not to
press his amendment.
,Mr. WAWN complained that no Hon. Gentleman
connected with the Free Church of Scotland was placed
on the Committee.
Mr. F. MAULE would undertake to say that the
Free Church would be perfectly contented with the
Committee as proposed.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Com-
mittee, as proposed by the Solicitor-General for Scot-
land, was agreed to.
On the motion of Captain ARCHDALL, certain re-
turns relative to the salaries, emoluments, and fees of
clerks of the peace and clerks of the Crown in Ireland,
were ordered.
The House adjourned at One o'Clock.

Mr. HU.S.iE complained that the Noble Lord had
not fairly represented his Hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden).
If the colonies got liberal institutions they would slot re••
quire troops.
The Committee divided, and the numbers were—
For the amendment 4O
Against it
Majority
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. F. MAULE observed, that the Ordnance esti-
mates were now under the consideration of a Committee
up stairs; but in the meantime it was necessary to have
votes on account to carry on the public service. He
proposed at present to take a vote for one-half the sum
on each item, and moved that 1,800,000/. be granted to
her Majesty to defray the charge of the land forces.
Mr. HUME felt that the vote on which they had di-
vided was substantially a vote for 7,000,000/. He could
do no more than enter his protest; but he should not
object to the votes which the Right lion. Gentleman now
proposed to take.
Colonel I)UNNE rose to call the attention of the
House to the privilege granted to officers of tho Foot
Guards of holding rank in the army superior to that of
offimrs of corresponding regimental rank in regiments
of the line, the licuterian-colonels and majors in the
Guards being colonels in the army, Auld the captains,
lieutenants, and ensigns, lieutenant-colonels, captains,
and lieutenants in the army respectively, and further,
to call the attention of the House to an inquiry whether
there was anything so peculiarly onerous in the duties of
the household troops as to justify the continuance of this
privilege, which, by giving more rapid promotion to one
branch of the service, insured among other advantages
an undue proportion of general officers from these fa-
voured corps, to the disadvantage of officers who served
in regiments of the line in every part of the world. It
was necessary perhaps to explain that ensigns
in regiments of the Guards had the rank of
lieutenants in the navy—(Loud laughter)—he meant
in the army, in the regiments of the line; captains
in the Guards had the rank of lieutenant-colonels
and field-officers were full colonels on service.
Such a system was greatly to the detriment of officers
of regiments of the line, because officers of the Guards
became field officers after a short service, and were en-
titled to brevet rank long before the officers of other
regiments. For example, Captain Harrison, one of the
officers of the 24th Regiment, which had suffered so
severely the other day, had served for 42 years on full
pay, and had but recently attained the rank of captain,
hereas in the Guards Colonel Stuart had become lieu-
tenant-colonel in 18 years. The Hon. and Gallant
Member proceeded to adduce a variety of instances in
which officers in the Guards had obtained promotion
after a short service as compared with officers in regi-
ments of the line. Yet the captain in the Guards who
became a field officer had no more experience than the
captain of a regiment of the line who did not become a
field officer. From calculations he had made, it ap-
peared that one in every five regiments was com-
manded by officers who had belonged to the Guardg,
though, in proportion to their number, they
ought to command only one regiment in thirty;
and if the proportion of lieutenant-colonels maintained
in the Guards were to extend over the whole army,
there would be 2,000 colonels altogether in the service.
Whilst expressing a hope that the matters to which he
had referred would become the subject of investigation
before the Committee on the Estimates, he wished to be
understood that it was far from his intention to depreciate
the character of either the officers or men of the Guards,
who had conducted themselves well wherever they had
been called upon to serve.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. MAULE, after expressing the satisfaction he
felt at the manner in which the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber had brought the subject forward, stated that it was
one which could not fail to come under the notice of the
Committee on the
.Estimates. Without intending to
enter into any discussion upon the present occasion, he
must be allowed so observe that he knew of many in-
stances in which officers who had exchanged into the
Guards from the line had not been promoted to the rank
of lieutenant-colonel as soon as they would have been
had they remained in the line. The testimony which
the Hon. and Gallant Officer bad borne to the merits of
the Guards was fully justified by their conduct, whether
in war or peace.
Colonel LINDSAY, though prepared to meet the
Hon. and Gallant Member who had introduced this
topic, was willing to postpone discussion until the matter
should have been investigated by the Committee; and
he was convinced that the result of the inquiry would
satisfy all unprejudiced persons that the privileges en-
joyed by the Guards were not as injurious to the lice as
was supposed in some quarters.
Mr. HUME said the privileges enjoyed by the Guards
were viewed with dissatisfaction by the rest of the ser-
vice.
Sir H. VERNEY observed, that if the Guards pos-
sessed privileges they also laboured under disadvan-
tages; for instance, a commission which could be pur-
chased in the line for 4001. or 500/. would cost 1,2001. in
the Guards.
An HON. MEMBER declared, that whilst he had the
honour of serving in the line he never knew that any
feeling of jealousy was entertairleedbyhtehaart.)branch of the
service against the Guards.--giar,
After a few words from Major BLACKALL the vote
was agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed te :-86,000/.
for the General Staff, excepting India ; 47,000/. for the
Public Departments; 8,0001. for the Royal Military
College—[h. F. MAULE stated that the new regula, •
Lions respecting examinations at tois 111SWOUCtli would
be laid upon the table as soon as they were agreedupon]-
9,000/. for the Royal Military Asylum; 33,0001. for Vo •
lunteer Corps; 7,0001 fur rewards for distinguished ser-
vices ; 39,0001. for the pay of general officers; a sum
of 28,000/. for the full-pay of retired officers; 200,0001.
for half-pay and military allowances ; 22,0001, for fo-
reign half-pay ; 64,000/. for widows' pensions ; 48,000/.
for the Compassionate List ; 17,000/. for the Hospitals
at Chelsea and Kilmainham; 60,000 L fur the out-peu-
sinners.
On the last vote Mr. HUME wished to know the
number of out-pensioners who were enrolled ?
Mr. F. MAULE could not tell the exact number of
out-pensioners ; butlthe number enrolled last year, con-
sisting of those above 45 years who were fit for service,
was 20,000.
Mr. HUME inquired how many there were in Ireland?
Mr. F. MAULE said the number was 5,000.
Sir H. VERNEY inquired whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman had investigated the peesibility of employ-

DISCOVERY OF A CAVE ON THE SOUTH-EASTERN
RAILWAY.—During the operation of the workmen on the
North Kent lint: of the South-Eastern Railway, when
tunnelling under tae hanging woods at Charlton, near
WoeMee, they came upon a cave of considerable
dimensions cut in the chalk and flint rocks. A great
quantity of sand has fallen at on end, blocking up the
bide from which it has apparently been entered, and the
workmen are now busily employed in shoring up a part
of the roof of one of the chambers, the railway passing
over its entire breadth. Four chambers have been dis-
covered, forming alternate recesses from the main cave,
leading in a westerly direction. The roof of the cave
is on a level with the line of railway, and the base about
twelve to fourteen teet lower. The atmosphere in it
is remarkably dry and pure, and presents a strange con-
trast with the damp and close atmosphere experienced
in passing along the tunnel to the extremity where the
cave bas been discovered. The men state they founhdar
knife and spoon on exploring it, and they turned their
the
tei
discovery to good account on Sunday, having lighted
whole of the tunnel with candles, and conducted visitors
each
Ttisitnrs
over the cave at the extremity, charging them d
for admission.
f 457, wrest Strand,
The Animals' Friend Society,
of
to Mrs. Smith,
last week charged Thomas Odell,hcSouthnwark Court,
of No. 62, Cornwall-road.,
gatwtorked a horse which had
be-
fore Mr. Seeker,
with
heaacvhn-shoulder in a loaded timber
a bleeding wound
waggon, the col ac:rnnscthiat.fing the wounds as the poor
no was fined 10s. mad costs,
animal pressed set
meta.
or 14 days' imprirn
On Saturday, in the Sheriff's Court, Mr. Commis-
sioner Bullock gave judgment in the case of " Briant v.
plain
ti Tho facts of the case are these: In /Counties
plaintiff bought several shares of the Northern
and South Yorkshire, Doncaster and Goole Railways,
which were put up to auction at the Hall of Com-
merce, defendant being the auctioneer; but the latter
would not give them up unless all the calls due upon
them were paid up, considering that he was bound to
ace them paid and duly registered. On the contrary,
it was urged by Mr. Clarke, of Featherstone-buildinga
(the plaintiff's attorney), that the plaintiff had com-
plied with the conditions of sale by paying the amount
of the bid, and tendering the amount of the transfer;
and further, that the purchaser was entitled to pay up
the calls himself, and the broker was not responsible, as,
by a late decision of the Vice-Chancellor, no sharehOlder
could evade his liability. His Honour considered there
had been no forfeiture of the shares by not paying up
the calls after the sale, and found for the plaintiff for
13/. 10:., the atnount paid; but a second action for da-
magcl, for the detention of the shares, after a very long
con,ider,tion, could not he sustained, after the plaintiff
had recovered. in the first action the amount paid.
I.ItEitooLYPHIC Ti PES.—The National Printing-
office of France has just published a work entitled
" Chronology of the Kings of Egypt," by Lesueur. This
is the first hook in which the new hieroglyphic types of
that estabqqhrnen'L have been used at any length. They
are said to be extrrmply delicate and beautiful—very au-
' perior to anything put forth by the EegliA or German
presses. The work is also toe first bearing the new
formula used under the Repub:ic to distinguish a book
Printe.t at the cost of the Government.—Athenaum.
DEATH OF EARL FITZWILLIAMS CRIMPANZEF4,—.•
This rare animal died at WentWOrth House, during the
night of Monday week. It was brought to this country
by Chall
Cap,ai oner, and presented
additionhAfritcoa,his
ti ,
to his Lordship as a
it f
valuablerotuS ()umenagerie,
e, evident the chimpanz•_:e would not
but soon b „aw
exist long in this variable climate, even with the greatest
care and attention to diet, &c.