The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-23 00:00:00

be about 385,8651., principally on sugar, and
yet, notwithstauding that reduction, he thought the
income for the present year would not fall short of
46,000,0001 —( Hear, hear.) He would say further,
that it was his belief that the state of the country
was such that he felt warranted in making that antici-
pation. In ordinary circumstances he should have felt
it to be his duty to go into the state of the country,
but as the Honourable Gentleman the Member for
Buckingham had given notice of his intention to bring
the subject forward he would not go into it now, because
if he did it would spoil the discussion that would
take place on the Hon. Member's motion. He thought
it better that should be taken as a whole.—(Hear, hear.)
He would only say there was a decided improvement in
the manufacturing districts, and the amount of
bullion in the Bank of England bad considerably in-
creased, and money was easy.—(Elear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded—l now come to the
expenditure, and I must express my expectation that in
future years we shall be able still further to reduce our
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) I will not go back to the
expenditure of 1835, because so many changes have taken
place in the circumstances of the country since that
time. Many charges have been thrown upon the public
revenue which were not heretofore borne by it; and I
must again, as I have done on former occasions, express
my regret that so strong a disposition exists, even among
the most economical Members of the House, perpetually
to increase the charges made upon the public revenue of
the country. I think that course is a great public evil
and misfortune. It is not altogether a very agreeable
thing for a Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is gene-
rally charged in this House with being a most wasteful
administrator of the public money, to be told the mo-
ment he gets out of these walls that he is refusing
money for the most necessary and advantageous expen
diture; and I hope the majority of this House will
assist me in resisting the imposition of any further
charges upon the public revenue. I will go back with
regard to the expenditure only so far as 1845. In that
year, when the Right Hon. Baronet opposite introduced
the income-tax, he stated most fully and fairly to the
House—and the House accepted the proposals—that
the income-tax would bo renewed, accompanied by re-
duced taxation, but accompanied by some increased ex-
penditure. The Right lion. Gentleman stated that with
due consideration for the real comfort and the necessary
relief of the British army, with due regard to the
protection of British trade abroad, and in order that the
national defences of the country might be placed in a
proper state of efficiency, it was necessary to increase
the public expenditure; and the House approved and
agreed to that proposition. Now, we have been told that
a House of Commons more popularly constituted would
not have incurred this additional expense. I cannot say
that such is my opinion—(Hear, hear)—for I believe no
proposal was ever submitted to this House which at the
time was more universally popular than that to which I
have referred. I remember perfectly well that, not being
an alarmist myself—having disregarded the warnings of
an Honourable Gentleman opposite as to the descent of
the Russians, and not being afraid of an invasion of the
French—l was not anxious that a very large expenditure
should be incurred for the purposes I have mentioned,
but I always found myself in a very small minority, and
even gentlemen who have taken a most active part in
the Financial Reform Association were at that time
strong supporters of an increased expenditure for the
national defences.—(Hear, hear.) I find that so lately
as December, 1847, the Honourable Member for Middle-
sex (Mr. Osborne) had a motion on the paper to call
the attention of the House to the state of the national
defences in Great Britain and Ireland. Now, I appre-
hend that gentlemen do not call the attention of the
House to matters which they conceive are sufficiently
and adequately provided for. The Honourable Gentle-
man withdrew his motion at the request of my Noble
Friend, but the only inference I can draw from his notice
is that, in his opinion, the national defences wore insuffi-
cient. I must say that I think, when these works had
been commenced, it would have been most absurd and
injudicious to put a sudden stop,o them; and I find that in
the present session, when the Hon. Member for South-
wark (Sir W. Molesworth) proposed to abandon the works
at Keyham, he was supported by only 27 gentlemen, while
a large majority of the House decided that it was most
expedient to p:cceed with those works, rather than to
throw away the 200,000/. or 300,000/. which had already
been expended upon them.—(dear.) With regard to
the army, I think we are justified by the circumstances
of the country in refusing to make any reduction last
year. It is true that some Hon. Gentlemen are now dis-
posed to underrate the danger which then existed. It
is said that the outbreak in Ireland was only a mock in-
surrection. Ido not think that was the general opinion
at the time.—(hear, hear.) No doubt, nothing is so
difficult to prove as the necessity for taking measures of
prevention which succeed.--(Hear, hear.) There were
last year two serious insurrections in Paris, which were
only put down at the expense of great bloodshed and
slaughter, in consequence of the want in the first in-
stance of au adequate number of troops. On a recent
occasion the presence of an adequate military force pre-
vented an insurrection in that city; but were the Go-
vernment to be condemned because by such precautions
they put down an insurrection without bloodshed, in-
stead of risking a repetition of the scenes which took
place in 1848? As soon, however, as we found that we
could reduce our military force, that reduction was
made; and in the course of this year a reduction
of 3,000 men in the navy, and of 10,000 men in the
army, has taken place, we having gone as far as,
in the circumstances of this country and of
Europe, we thought we were justified in going. The
only arm which has been increased is the artillery, and I
must say I think, from our recent Indian experience,
that we should greatly neglect our duty if we did not
maintain that force in a state of efEciency.—(Clear, hear.)
I informed the House at the end of the last session that
in the estimates for that year we had made reductions
to the amount of 828,7001 I stated early in the present
session that upon the estimates as they then stood there
was a reduction of 1,447,000/. Since that time further
estimates have been laid upon the table, and in the whole
of them, or nearly so, there is a reduction. ,Now, I wish
to show the House that the Government, or the Trea-
sury, whose special duty it is, exercise a constant and
all-pervading control over the expenditure of the
country, and that that supervision takes place not merely
with regard to the larger, but also to the smaller items
of expenditure. There are, in the estimates for civil ser-
vices, 103 votes, of which 45 are less than the correspond-
ing votes of last year, 24 are larger, 32 are the same,
2 are new votes, 10 are given up, and one is transferred
to another department. There is a decrease in every
class but two—classes 3 and 6; and the increase in these
votes is quite beyond our control. The increase in one
of those votes arises from an increase of the expenses
attending the administration of justice—from an in-
crease in the number of prosecutions, and in the
charge for the transportation of convicts. In the
other vote the increase is owing to the superannua-
tions, which have been more numerous in consequence
of the redactions made in many of the public depart-
ments. Upon the whole, however, there is a diminution
of expenditure. The two new votes are votes of abso-
lute necessity—the one for repairing the Caledonian
Canal, and the other for repairing Lybster Harbour in
the north of Scotland, which is, a great resort of the
fishermen on that coast. I will now state the whole
amount of reduction in the estimates for this year. The
reduction in the navy estimates is 718,1681.; in the army
estimates, 433,9141.; in the ordnance estimates, 337,8731.;
and in the miscellaneous estimates, 21,5001., being a de-
crease altogether of 1,511,4551. in the course of this
year; and, if that amount he added to the reduction of
828,700/. effected in the preceding year, it will be seen
that the total reduction in the estimates for the last two
years is 2,340,1551, I hope that even my Hon. Friend
behind me (Mr. Hume) will take this as a proof that we
have not been unmindful of reducing the expenditure to
as great an extent as we thought possible.—[Mr. Hume
was understood to say that his objection was to the in-
crease.] 'Well, my Hon. Friend will at least give us
credit for the reduction.—(A laugh.) But I wish to show
by an instance, that even in those items which do not
come under the cognizance of Parliament, we have not been
unmindful of the principle of reduction. Early in this
session I introduced a Bill to carry into effect the largest
reductiou-which has been made for years with respect to
the revenue—l allude to the Bill for consolidating the
Beard of Excise and the Board of Stamps and Taxes.
Since a relative of mine became Chairman of the Board
of Stamps and Taxes, very considerable reductions have
been effected in that department, and it is bet just to him
that I should state the reduction in the number of per-
sons employed and in the salaries paid. The paper lam
about to quote is "An Account showing the Decrease in
the number of Officers and Salaries of the Board of In-
land Revenue, in 1849, as compared with the Boards of
Excise, Stamps, and Taxes, in 1833." In 1833 the
number of persons employed was 9,083, it is now 7,329,
being a reduction of 2,054. The amount of salaries in
1833 was 962,266/., it is now 715,092/., being a decrease
of 247,174/., or nearly a quarter of a million of money.—
(Hear.) This statement, I may observe, does not include
income-tax,
who employed in the collection of the
who could not be fairly included in the comparison.
The Committee on the miscellaneous expenditure recom-
mended that persons who had been employed in Govern-
ment offices should not, if it could be avoided, be
placed upon permanent retired allowances, but that
their services should, when possible, be made available.
Now, last year a Bill was passed abolishing the Excise
survey upon spirits, and the number of stations conse-
quently discontinued was 600. At the time of the abo-
lition there were 51 of those stations vacant ; 90 officers
were superannuated, for the Government find it quite
impossible to re-introduce very old men to active em-
ployment, and therefore persons above 60 years of age
are allowed to retire upon allowances; five officers have
died; one has been discharged; 188 have since been re-
appointed to other stations; and 325 are remaining to be
absorbed as vacancies may occur. The whole patronage
of the Government has been given up in order to carry
out this plan—(Hear, hear)—and I therefore believe
that the whole of these persons will be re-employed.in the
public service. An inquiry is proceeding with the view
of carrying out a similar plan with regard to the Cus-
toms (as we understood), and I hope that we may be able
to carry on this system of reduction, which I believe not
only tends to economy, but also to the efficiency of the
public service. I have not before stated that I have thought
it right to reduce the salaries of these officers, because I
do not believe that, as a class, they are overpaid—
(Hear)—but we have reduced the numbers; and I think
the public service can be better conducted by a smaller
number of well-paid officers than by a large number of
under-paid men who are not so well qualified to discharge
the duties which devolve upon thom.—(Hear.) I will
only say that I can give no better assurance to the
House as to the course the Government have been pur-
suing for some time, and in which they are determined
to persevere, than the statement I have made.—(Hear,
hear.) I cannot, of course, at this time foretell what
reductions may bo made in future years; for in such
times as these, when no man can say what the morrow
may bring forth, it would be absurd to predict what
amount of force it may be necessary to keep up in sub-
sequent years ; but with regard to the expenditure
which has been undertaken for the completion of the

works, and for the incee tee of se eres. I can oelv sev
that whoa rhea w. ate, e :ere ' -,•1.1- .es!
proper quantum of st gyres is oetaraed, the s;ty to
that expenditure will cease. I hope there is every pros-
pect of the revenue of the country increasing, sod that
in subsequent years we may see such a surplus of in-
come as will place us in a more comfortable position
than I must admit we stand in at present. It is impos-
sible not to be uneasy at so small an amount of surplus
as that which I have anticipated in the course of this
year.—(Hear, hear.) I considt r that it is neither safe
nor creditable that a surplus should not be perma.
nently maintaiued sufficient to meet the extraordi-
nary contingencies that may occur in a country like
this, and I should :not think that anything but the
peculiar circumstances of the time would justify us
in going on with so small a surplus as I have anti-
cipated; but, as long as there is a surplus, I do not
think that it is necessary to impose, or to at-
tempt to impose, any new burden upon the
country for the purpose of creating a further surplus.
I must say, however, to those gentlemen who have given
notice of their intention to move for the reduction or re
peal of some existing taxes, that, with the present
amount of surplus, I think they cannot expect me to
accede to any such measures.—(Hear, hear.) I also
wish to put; another consideration before those; gentle-
men;—that if, as soon as we get any moderate amount
of surplus, it is to be given up in repealing some smail
amount of taxation, we never shall be in a condition to
make any of those large changes which would be most
beneficial to the country.—(Hear, hear.) Last year a
proposal was made to reduce the duty on tea—a mea•
sure which would cause the risk of some 2,000,0001. of
revenue. The tea duty produces nearly 5,000,0001. It
was proposed to reduce that duty from 2s, and a fraction
to ls.; and will any Hon. Gentleman contend that
such a change would not involve the risk of at least
2,000,0001.? If the House is prepared to impose
other taxes, in order to enable such an experiment to be
made, well and good ; but if it is not so prepared
it must not throw away in the reduction of small
items of taxation the nucleus of a future sur-
plus which may be applied to more beneficial
reductions. Another measure which was pressed
upon the Government was the revision of the Stamp
duties—a step which would involve, in all probability, a
loss of some 300,0001. or 400,0001., with the risk of still
further loss. I must, then, impress upon Honourable
Gentlemen that if they really wish any of those changes
in taxation to take place which past experience has
shown to be beneficial in the end, it is utterly impossible
that such changes can be made until in some way
or other a surplus is obtained which would justify the
Chancellor of the Exchequer in making the experiment.
—(Hear, hear.) As I have shown before, it is a perfect
mistake to suppose that the country is not at this moment
enjoying, year by year, the advantage of reduced taxa-
tion in respect to those duties which, by the operation of
Acts now in force, are diminishing year by year. That
will go on a year or two more, an I hope the expendi-
ture will be brought down, while the ordinary revenue
will be increased, and that we shall be 4.n a more favour-
able position then that at present. The circumstances
which occurred last year, the famine, and distress in
trade, were such as to account for the depression in the or-
dinary revenue; and, in such a case, th.e sa'eat course to
pursue is to avoid all rash experiments, and to do nothing
which might disturb the ordinary course of trade or oppose
any impediment to the advancement of that improvement,
which I hope will gradually progress. Thus we shall
be in a better situation to bear the continuance of un-
favourable circumstances, if they should continue; and,
if a favourable change should occur, 'we shall be in a
better condition to take advantage of the return of
prosperity.—(Cheers.) The Right .Hon. Gentleman
then concluded by proposing that the s am of 3,000,000/.
be paid out of the consolidated fund towards making
good the supply granted to her Majesty.
Mr. HUME did not think the Government entitled to
so much credit as they claimed for any reduction of ex-
penditure, because it had been brought about by a pres •
sure on the Government. However, his complaint was,
that a great increase of expenditure had taken place
during the two preceding years without any reason. He
did not deny that many obnoxious taxes had been re-
pealed, and he had often expressed his opinion that no
man had done more good in respect to relieving the
country from taxation than the Right Hon. Member for
Tamwortb, who took off 8,000,000/. of taxation which
pressed on the industry of the country, and substituted
5,000,000/. of taxation placed on the capital of the
country. There was a return before the House of the
public expenditure from 1822-23 to 1846.47 in-
elu-ive ; and, having divided that return from
the year 1824 into periods of five years each,
he found that the country had been subject
during the last five years to a greater amount
of taxation than during any other of the periods of five
years. From 1824 to 1828 the average yearly amount
of revenue was 56,418,0001., and the average yearly ex-
penditure 55,518,000/.; and those were years alien strong
complaints were made of the amount of the public ex-
penses. In the next five years, from 1829 to 1833, the
average revenue was 52,634,0001., and the average ex-
penditure, 51,605,0001. From 1834 to 1838 the average
receipt was 51,000,0001., and the average expendii;ure,
50,000,0001. From 1839 to 1843 the average receipt
was 52,400,000/., and the average expenditure
55,000,000/., showing an excess of nearly 3,000,000/.
over the receipt ; and from 1844 to 1848, instead of
their being a decrease of taxation, the average receipt
was 57,000,0001., being 600,000/. more than the average
for the period from 1824 to 1828, and 5,000,000/. more
than the average of the other years ; and the expendi-
ture from 1844 to 1848 averaged 56,536,000/. Such
was the state of the case, although they were eternally
told that the country was relieved from taxation, and
that it ought to be thankful for it. He therefore com-
plained that they heard nothing from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer that evening of measures for the relief of
the country. It was quite true that the country could
not be relieved if the army and navy were kept up to
an unnecessary amount, if the artillery were trebled,
and the miscellaneous expenses were increased. But
he hoped the time was coming when the Government
would feel a pressure from without on the subject.
Prices were falling and rents were coming down, and he
looked upon all these circumstances as aids towards pro-
curing that reduction which would give permanent relief
to the country. He prayed that wheat might come and
keep down to 355. a quarter, so that every one might
feel the difficulty, for it was only the country gentlemen
who supported extravagance.—(Laughter.) He found,
among those who supported the motion for reduction
and reform on a recent occasion, were the major part of
the representatives of the great populous towns, but, un-
fortunately, the country gentlemen did not seem to know
their own interest, and opposed it. The time was ap-
proaching when the people must be allowed to exercise
all their constitutional rights, and then he had no fear
but that they might reduce their expenditure by a sum
amounting to,if not:exceeding, 1 0,000,000/. He was anxious
to maintain public credit, but the best means of doing so
was by economy and retrenchment, and not by extrava-
gance and the maintenance of large establishments. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had been persuaded to post-
pone the collection of the hop duty, but he might take it off
altogether by cutting down some useless expenditure.
The duty collected on the importation of foreign books
amounted to 7,000/., and if they were to take away
the salary of the Governor of Ceylon they needed not
then to levy this sum on the introduction of foreign in-
formation. If the House would support him he would
point out methods by which the duties on malt, hops,
bricks, soap, windows, and paper, might be removed,
and public credit placed in a better c. edition than at
present. He wished to get rid of the Excise, transfer-
ring the only two sources of revenue he would leave
under this head to another department, thus saving all
the expense of the present establishment. He was anx-
ious to maintain an efficient force in this country, but he
did not desire to see war establishments in time of peace;
and though desirous that every one in the public service
should be well paid, he wanted no more to be employed
than were required. It was a mockery to keep up 150
admirals when only 14 were wanted, and 350 generals
when only half-a-dozen could be employed. If the Go-
vernment went on recklessly in this manner the people
must speak out and decide the matter for themselves at
the next election. If every person who advocated re-
duction were to qualify himself as a voter the country
would soon get relief. Ile was told that there was on
the part of the Government a real and sincere desire to
economise. Might God speed them! Let them direct
their attention to the army, the commissariat, the local
expenditure, the dockyards, and the waste of materials;
and let them consider that they might save money by
abolishing the Ordnance department and transferring
the business to the army establishment.
Sir J. TYRELL said that the Hon. Member had
borne particularly hard on the country gentlemen, but
he must have a short memory, or ho would have recol-
lected that only the -other night the Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire, who ably represented the country gentle-
men, made a motion of a severe character with the view
of effecting a material reduction.—(Hear, hear.) The
lion. Member for Montrose had indulged in a variety of
prophecies, but he (Sir J. Tyrol') had not the slightest
faith in them, for he recollected the repeated prophecies
uttered some years ago as to the advantages which the
Reform Bill was to confer on the country—advantages
almost as great as it had been promised would follow
the adoption of free trade; and he asked whether those
prophecies had been fulfilled? 'With respect to the
statement of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, he thought it able in many respects, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman had made an omission in not
giving the House any insight into the extent of the
financial responsibility which devolved upon him in re-
ference to the state of Ireland,--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HODGES was understood to state that great dis-
tress prevailed among the growers of hops, and to ex-
press a hope that some relief would be affirded to them
in respect to the hop duty. Ile (Mr. Hodges) hoped
that even now some measure of relief would be proposed.
Lord R. GROSVENOR had to express his regret that
no hope was held out of the repeal of that most unjust,
most oppressive, and most iniquitous tax—the att,rneys'
annual certificate duty.—(bear, hear, and a laugh )
He had to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer notice
that this subject must now be pressed on the first night
when the ballot gave him (Lord R. Grosvenor)teßight
the
an
opportunity of bringing on his motion, unless
h
hear.)
Hon. Gentleman, by yielding, preventednecesasnitdy, ofit
ha r.
stating the case of a highly useful, meritorious,
might be added, powerful class.—(Hear, )
tuyssoefx,niinak;tnhge
Hon. Friend (Mr. Hodges) on
Mr. FRE WEN could confirmthe tshueb
es:tit statement entht
eof
hhoips
duties. When
hol holidays, yh se, (Mr.
MhentoForkewtheen)owppaosrtiunnSi
payment, more than half
inquiries upon the state of the country, and he found it
was utterly impossible that the hop duties could be col-
Pboensold up and incarcerated,
col-
lected next October and November. If the Chancellor
insistedelrteoaudy most cruelly been; some
wq
them
eu
hd a hd a
as
sf
somas the
Entoxeferhs e
whom the Excise officers suspected to he not likely to be
from their unfortunate circum-
stances.—(Hear, to pay their duties had been proceeded against and
rent to gaol, simply
hear.) If the hop duty should be main-
tabled, the result would be that there must be WI out,

broil(

-.Sere The eel'estiee eeedd
'are MesCGßEniielS t aught the state of the revenue
highly setisfacniry.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
expenditure, he could Lot expect any great reduction,
uttiess Ireland could be rut in a very different condition,
and the cost of the military establishment and consta-
bulary force in that country reduced; for it was to re-
duction in that expenditure and the military expende.
tore in the colonies that he chiefly bolted. As to the
abolition of duties, he wished to see such a revenue raised
that the duties on hops, bricks, windows, paper and ad-
vertisements, might be repealed. Ile was decidedly of
opinion that if the duty on tea were reduced to ls. we
should not for the next three years derive a revenue of
r 3 than 3,000,0001. from tee. He should be glad, with
a view to a reduction of duties, to see the income-tax
raised to 5 per cent., but was bound to say, that in the
present state of feeling in the House, such a proposition
would meet the same fate as the former proposal to in-
crease that tex —(Heer, hear.) Ile trusted the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would deal in the way of reform
with the Customs' regulations, and the inconvenient re-
' strictions involved in them. He had confidence in the
Tight Hon. Gentleman, from his course since he had had
the management of the public revenue.—(flear, hear.)
Mr. COWAN had heard the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman with much gratification. It was evi-
dent thet the resources of the country, if rightly ad-
ministered, were amply sufficient to meet all the en-
gagements whickthe national interest and honour re-
quired. (Hear, hear.) But it seemed strange that,
after showing that reeuetions of duties did not injure
the revenue, the Right Hon. Gentleman declined to
proceed further in that direction, and reduce the tea or
other duties. He (Mr. Cowan) hoped that a revision of
taxation would gradually take piece, always having in
view the paramount necessity of keeping faith with the
public creditor.—(Hear, hear.) Those excise duties
which tended to confine industry to the narrowest pos-
sible limits especially demanded consideration.
Mr. EWART thought the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer had made a very clear statement—(Heal., hear)—
and he could not be expected to make any reduction of
duties without first considering the means he had of sup-
porting the credit of the country.—(Hear.) Agreeing
that trade was fettered by our Customs and Excise
laws, and that we had not carried out the principle of
free-tradei to its full extent, he (Mr. Ee art) was of
opinion that the first point should be to reduce the ex-
penditure, and the next to alter cur system of taxation ;
and he hoped to see the country gentlemen, no longer
supporting war and taxation, take their natural place
as the guardians of the public press. But he was
afraid they would never insist upon economy till low
prices forced them to it.
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND believed that in the de•
bates in that House the country gentlemen showed
themselves more masters of the question than gentlemen
opposite; and if he desired to give an instance of the
country gentlemen exposing an imposture attempted for
a particular occasion, he would point to the exposure by
his Hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich (Sir J. Pak-
ington) of that Lancashire statement made the other day
with respect to the county expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
It was scarcely necessary for him (Mr. Drummond) to
say, after the opinions he had expressed in that House,
that he could not regard the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman as satisfactory; not that there was any-
thing not to be praised in it, but that it did not go to the
root of this question. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was quite right in not repealing small duties; those
which ought to be first repealed were those which
pressed exclusively upon the poor. It should be consi-
dered that in this country and in this climate, beer
brewed at home was a necessary of life; and the rule
just suggested would include also the case of bricks and
soap.--(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Drummond) was very
sorry that the Government would not undertake to deal
with this great question. He felt the deepest convic-
tion, tied pain commensurate with that conviction, that
unless they did, the time was not far distant when the
Ledru Rollins and Proudhons of this country would.
The simple point was, whether these desperadoes were
to be suffered to do that, and a great deal more.
Mr. M. GIBSON thought his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Hume) was fully justified in making the remarks he did,
with the view of awakening the country party to resume
their ancient influence, and exercise the great political
power proper to them, in carrying reduction into effect.
—(Hear, bear.) For himself (Mr. Gibson), not ex-
pecting much, he was not, ou this occasion, disappointed;
but he would remark that the Gevernreent would never
get much credit for economy—talk as they might about
delaying the completion of docks, and so on, so long as
the taxgatherer called upon the taxpayer or the same
amount of money as before.—(Hear, hear.) Vais
seemed a fitting occasion to observe, that the Govern-
ment deserved great credit for the firm and successful
manner in which they carried the repeal of the naviga-
tion laws—(Loud cheers)—assistecl, perhaps, in a reluc-
tant House of Lords by the dread of a Protectionist Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) But let not the Government
repose too Lug upon their laurels; there were duties
embarrassing trade, and yielding little revenue, still to
be got rid of.---(Hear.) In regard to the excise duties
that upon paper was most prejudicial to the export of
English books—(Hear)—and the duty upon paper used
for making cards in patterns was very objectionable.
The British silk manufacturer was placed at a great dis-
advantage; a witness before the Committee on the
School of Design stated that he paid 481. duty upon two
patterns. The Whigs had always repudiated taxes
upon knowledge; and the House had learned by a peti-
tion from Messrs. Chambers, of Edinburgh, that the ex-
cise duty on paper had caused them to discontinue the
publication of a work calculated for the humbler classes,
though the circulation was, or would have been 80,000.
Then, too, there was the advertisement duty, and—still
more important—the penny stamp upon newspapers—
(Hear)—preventing the people from having the full
benefit of a cheap press, as it was intended they should
have when Mr. Chadwick took up that question.—(Hear,
hear.) It was satisfactory to see the great success which
had attended the commercial policy of the Right Hon-
ourable Gentleman the Member for Tainworth.—(Hear,
hear.) If ever there was a policy, the success of which
was capable of mathematical demonstration, it was this,
both in respect to revenue and its effects upon trade.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gibson) might add that be be-
lieved in the cotton districts, trade was in a more satis-
factory position than it had been; and that our home
trade had not been so bad as some gentlemen would wish
to make out.—(Hear, hear.) He believed he might say
that the labouring population in the north of England
were never in a much better condition, and that their
wages never commanded a larger share of the neces-
saries and comforts of life. There was still a large mar-
gin for improvement, and changes in the commercial
policy of the country might still be made which would to
a very considerable extent, further improve the condi-
tion of the people.
Mr. STAFFORD said the Hon. Member for Mont-
rose had charged the country gentlemen with being blind
to their own interests, and the agriculturists had been
also accused of being a divided party; but the farmers
were, he believed, still more opposed to free trade, and
more favourable to a retrogressive policy than even the
country gentlemen. The Right lion. Gentleman (Mr.
M. Gibson) had told the House that the labourers in
the north were well employed, and that their wages
were good.
Mr. GIBSON—No.
Mr. STAFFORD--But in the district of England
with which he was connected he regretted to say that so
flattering a tale could not be told; for the population of
Northamptonshire were suffering from decreasing em-
ployment and increasing poor-rates. There were some
articles of food upon which a purely protective duty was
now levied, and of which great complaints used to be
made during the corn-law agitation, but against which_
lion. Gentlemen had not on the present occasion uttered
one word. Ho alluded to the duties on butter and cheese.
Why was no voice raised for the repeal of these duties?
Because Hon.-Members opposite knew that the revenue
derived from these articles could not be spared; and
what these Hon. Gentlemen said of those duties they
(the Protectionist Members) affirmed with reference to
other duties which had been repealed—viz., that they
could not carry out their system of free trade and con-
tinue to maintain faith with the national creditor.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Stafford) believed, with the
Right Hon. Gentletnnn, that free trade had still much
further to go, and that the time might come when the
country gentlemen wuuld find themselves placed in the
difficulty of having to choose between following the
opinions of those whom they represented and perform- •
ing their public duty. It might happen that the farmers,
believing that they had been deprived of protection
disingenuously and unfairly, might no longer be favour-
able, as heretofore they had been, to the maintenance of
our aristocratic institutions, and therein consisted the
democratic nature of Mr. Cohdert's movement.
Mr. COBDEN would not be seduced into a free trade
discussion on the present occasion, and would merely
express his opinion that the events and experience of
every successive day were justifiying the views which
the free traders took with respect to a free trade in corn.
—(hear, hear.) He, for one, was perfectly prepared to
abide by the results of that experiment. But when the
Hon. Member (Mr. Stafford) appeared to claim for the
farmers the credit of being the especially loyal class,
and said that they were now becoming democratic, and
r
that the institutions of the country were not safe in tbei
hands, he would deny that the farmers were an especially
loyal body. He believed that there was as much_ . loyalty,
in the true acceptation of the term, in the shopkeepers
repeal,
citiblieriEngxchequer
ep ,a of the
to be the friend
do fi s
tLr
ioent
sd.of
(fieLs
e example,r.) \v t
With
hs
regardin te ftarmo tehres
repeal
the country
malt-tax, he had made no pretension
of the farmer, and he considered that there were a dozm
• aosthtehre
could not possibly repeal them unless he did one of two
taasx.injußruir
tsb,eancdhaans
Chancellor
rh
orfe
things, and either reduced his expenditure or increased
tmaxaelts
the amount raised by direct taxation. II
e agreed with
what had been said upon the extreme importance of re-
ducing excise duties, and principally on account of the
necessity of removing the
impediments which they
offered to the industry of the country. And he was glad
to find that on the discussiot of the budget the attention
of the House appeared to bo directed not so much to the
amount of taxes rased •
or remaks, but, what was much
more important, to the way which they werelevied,
in
and the injuries inflictedby the present mode in which
the revenue was lev
ied.—(Hear.) Take the hop duty.
He had recently
received several letters from Kent and
Sussex, from
parties who requested him to brieg forward
a motion fur the repeal of the hop duty. Hop growers
were subject to all kinds of natural casualties and discs.,
tern—their crops were lieble to be attacked by flea, fly,
and honey -dew, by all sorts of diseases and blights; but
he was informed that blight, flea, fly, and honey-dew,
were as nothing compared to the evils they suffered from
the excise duties; and that this duty was like a pe-
riodical blight affecting the whole districts of the coun-
try. Now, was it desirable, for a beggarly amount of
250,0001., that they should levy a tax that produced
desolation, want of employ meat, bankruptcy, and
ruin, in four or five counties in England, and which he
(Mr. Cobden) had been assured by a gentleman in Sus- - -
sex was likely to produce tin outbreak in the county if