The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-16 00:00:00

TURNPIKE ACTS.

Mr. WILSON PATTEN wished to ask the Under-
Secretary for the Home Department, if he could state at
what period the new Bill with regard to turnpikes would
be introduced.
Mr.CORNEWALL LEWIS said the Road Bill would
be printed very shortly, and he expected to be able to
bring it in next week.
CHOLERA IN LIMERICK. _ _ .

Mr. MONSELL begged to call the attention of the
Secretary for the Home Department to the circumstance
of the cholera having broken out in the gaol
at Limerick, which of late had become fearfully crowded,
so much so that 8 or 9 persons were found sleeping in
a cell, and 215 individuals were occupying a day-room
not intended to hold more than 30. He begged to
ask the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secre-
tary for the Home Department whether he was prepared
to assure the House that he would at once take steps for
the removal, at all events, of 136 convicts under sentence
of transportation in the gaol at Limerick.
Sir GEORGE GREY said it was a notorious fact
that the prisons in Ireland were crowded to a
most dangerous and inconvenient extent, and a cor-
respondence had taken place between the Lord-
Lieutenant and the Government on the subject, and
it was in contemplation to remedy the evil by send-
ing most of the convicts now under sentence of trans-
portation to Spike Island. With regard to the cholera,
he was not aware that it had broken out in the gaol at
Limerick to so great an extent. Precautions had
some little time ago been taken to prevent its
spread, and any recommendation coming from the
visiting justices of the gaol to the Government on the
subject would be promptly attended to.
RATE IN AID BILL.

Sir R. PEEL asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
when he proposed to bring on the second reading of the
Rate in Aid Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had intended to move the second reading of the Bill to-
morrow ; it had, however, been found necessary to post-
pone it, but be should bring_iton shortly before Easter.

NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Mr. HERRIES asked whether her Majesty's Minis-
ters were prepared to proceed with the Bill for the
repeal of the navigation-laws ; and if so, when ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if
the Right Hon. Gentleman thought the Government
entertained the slightest doubt about this Bill he was
mistaken. The time of bringing it on must depend on
the public business.—(Hear, hear.)
PUBLIC LIBRARIES.
Mr. EWART presented a petition from the inha-
bitants of Birmingham, complaining of the want of
public libraries.
The HON. GENTLEMAN then proceeded to move the
following resolution, of which he had given notice, viz.,
for a Select Committee on existing public libraries in
Great Britain and Ireland, and on the best means
of extending the establishment of libraries freely
open to the public, especially in large towns.
For several years they had introduced into this country
various amendments in our system of public instruction,
in emulation of foreign countries—for instance, the
National Gallery, and various modes of refining the
minds of the people; but there was one means of refining
common to foreign countries which did not exist
in this, and that was by means of public libra-
ries freely accessible to all the people. Ile was sorry
to say, if the house compared the existing public libra-
ries in England with those existing in foreign countries,
they would find them few indeed. In France he found,
from a late publication, conducted by a gentleman to
whom the public was indebted for much valuable in-
formation on this subject, that there are in France no
less than one hundred and seven public libraries freely
accessible to any one who might ask admission.
Over the whole of Germany it w :s the same, while in
London there were only two public libraries. In Liver-
pool there was not one public library, while in Ham-
burgh there were no less than six.—(Hear, hear.) in the
large town of Manchester there was only one, while in
Rouen there were two.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
therefore, that the subject that he was about to bring to
the notice of the House deserved its deepest consideration.
Look again across the Atlantic, look to tththoehmefaUtutpsatnuekhuibietlnmerigd
States. In America there were no less than eighty-
one public libraries.—(Hear.) It was true the people of
ec.
librariestth hhu iets t
books
hc aotu naant
hrn
re
away
as
dhwa; daa
nat
hdnae
ncr
pcte
oe a swans
daes
easyrtionn
go
att
sho etvi
the
e orw Bam ari e
themt
mean
oan hs
e were be-
lwieaysedin that
treiignn
acougnretes.m—e(allneraer,
thheesaer .t)hingHa
caused
of
fE
peoplegoifo this
a country;desir
e
ot
and by his motion he sought to increase in the minds—
in the by
minds the
f apathyhe of
people the
to obtain further knowledge by means of reading the
established works of tle day.—(Hear.) The British
Museum, the BOdleian Library' at Oxford, the

Library of Trinity College, Dublin, and several others
taxed every author by compelling him to furnish to them
a copy of his work, and such being the case he thought
they ought to be compelled to open their, doors to the
public generally,unless they consented to do so voluntarily.
In all the- cathedral towns of this country there were
libraries belonging to the Dean and Chapter, and he did
not see why those libraries should not be thrown open
to the public.—(Hear.) Some of those establishments he
was happy to say had opened their libraries to the public.
It was the wise custom adopted after the Reformation to
establish parochial libraries, where the means for doing
so were at all feasible, and their establishment•had been
attended for years afterwards with the most beneficial
effects. He would not adduce any numerous instances,
but he thought that the inquiry might with great
addvantage be extended to all parts of the
kingdom, even from the Museum itself to
the lowest parochial library in the country. He
would state then how he intended to proceed in this
Committee, supposing the Committee to be granted. He
proposed in the first place to work, in the second to in-
quire into the constitution of all the public libraries in
the kingdom, and in the third to ascertain such data as
might point out where public libraries should be
formed. He was convinced if this plan were adopted,
that as soon as it was known at any particular
place that a library was to be formed there
would be a number of individuals who would readily
come forward to make donations.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
might instance the case of the British Museum itself, half
the contents of which had been presented as gifts to the
institution, though in making such an assertion, he must
state to the House, that he of course included the muni-
ficent donations of Geo. 111. and Geo. IV. Nor could
be conceive any more honourable object of ambition
than that of an individual who wished to see his name
inscribed in some prominent place in a public library
and handed down to future ages as a benefactor of his
kind. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for
the Select Committee.
Sir GEORGE GREY quite concurred with the
Honourable Member in the great advantages which
were likely to accrue from the establishment of
parochial libraries throughout the country, but he con-
fessed that he did not see any tangible reason whatever
for preceding so desirable an attempt by an inquiry into
the constitution of the public libraries. The terms

of the motion were extremely vague and indefinite, and
he could, therefore, hardly assent to it as it stood. The
Hon. Gentleman had instanced the Bodleian, the library
of the British Museum, and other public libraries ; but
was be not aware that there was already a commission for
the affairs of the British Museum in which the interests of
the library were included, and a second commission
therefore could hardly be erected without the certainty
of great public inconvenience. The general object of the
motion was good, and he should have no objection to a
Select Committee if those words were struck out of the
motion which had reference to the public libraries now
in existence.
After an observation from Mr. HUME, recommending
that there should be a conference out of the House to
settle the words,
Mr. EWART acceded to Sir G. Grey's suggestion,
and the Select Committee was ordered.
PAPERS MOVED_FOR BY MR. HUME.

Viscount DRUM LANRIG moved for a return of the
expense tho country has incurred from printing and pub-
lishing and collecting returns moved for by the Hon.
Member for Montrose, from February, 1848, to February,
1849. The Noble Lord disclaimed that he proposed
his motion from any personal motives towards the
Honourable Member; but he could not help stating
that it would be well if he could be induced not to move
for so large a number of papers, many of which were
utterly valueless.
The motion being seconded,
Mr. HUME, who was greeted with loud cheers from
both sides of the House, rose to move as an amend-
ment, to insert after the word " Montrose," the
words and also by every other Member."
He assured the House that there was nothing that he
did within its walls that he was unwilling to be made
public. He regretted that he had not heard one word
of the grounds on what the Noble Lord based his mo-
tion; only he had selected the papers moved for by him,
and not by every other Hon. Member.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord fancied that he had found out some-
thing new; but he had to inform him that that was the
third time this question had been mooted. He feared,
however, he was one of those who " did nothing them-
selves, and who found fault with those who did."—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Ho did not deny that he
had taken an active part in moving for returns—(Loud
cheers)—but if the Noble Lord would mention
any returns which he had not acted upon, or
which had not been of public service, then he would take
all the blame that should attach to him for having moved
for useless returns. But when many had moved for
returns of which, and of the use to be made of them,
they knew nothing, he apprehended that they were to
blame, and that he (gr. Hume) was blameless.
From a paper moved for by him, showing the
number of
papers moved for by lion. Members during
1842, it appeared that in the list from 1 to 50 his namo
did not appear, neither did it from 50 to 69; and if the
Noble Lord would examine the list he would find that
he had moved for a variety of papers which he conceived
most important, and if he would move the appointment of
a Committee on the subject, and would state before it
the ground on which he made his motion—(Hear)--
he should be prepared to show that all the papers he had
moved for were of the utmost public importance—moved
inte
r t
interested
ted such e
in
r its
for mainly to show how the money of the nation was ex-
pended, and he did not, therefore, wonder at
ttuhrens, N obbelecauLseir, pderahnaps, dotthheery
sobjectingwere
reckless expenditure. He hoped the House would agree

Ic'

them, and the real object of which returns were not at
all times clearly understood. Four years ago he moved
for a nubnber of returns in connexion with tidal harbours,
which took two years to prepare, and without which
the Commission appointed on the subject would not have
been so of fictive as it had b en.—( I fear, hear.) He had,
11,- pert-f yeti be the r t.ien re er. t .n .v - for a re-
turn of pensioners, which had cost 11 ss. prep ,ring,
which was not a great grievance, considering
that it contained the names of many of the
Noble Lord's friends.—(Laughter.) Many of the
returns he had moved for published exposures of the
mismanagement of public departments, and showed how
the expenditure of the public money could be econo-
mised.—(Hear, hear) He did not object to the words
of the motion, but to the spirit in which it was made;
indeed, he should be glad to see such a return pub-
lished every year. He found by the paper to which
he had already alluded, that the cost of printing the
evidence taken before Election Committees had amounted
to from 2,0001. to 3,0001., which was only of interest to
a small number of persons. Then that large blue
book, too voluminous for any one to peruse, had been
printed containing the names of slaves, which could not
be interesting to any one.
Sir G. GREY said that the Noble Lord had declared
that he did not propose the motion from any personal
motives towards the Honourable Gentleman ; yet no
motion of the kind could be produced, naming
as it did the conduct of an individual Member,
without implying motives which the Noble Lord had dis-
claimed. No Hon. Gentleman was responsible for the
returns for which he moved, since returns could only be
obtained by an address to the Crown, and it was
competent for any Honourable Gentleman, if he
thought they ought not to be produced, to oppose them.
With regard to the matter of printing, the House per-
haps was not aware that these returns were always re-
ferred to the Printing Committee, to decide whether they
merited the distinction of being put in print.—(llear.) He
had no objection to this general return, but ho did not
think the return would serve the purpose the Noble Lord
had in view, and he therefore hoped the Noble Lord
would not persevere in his motion.—(Hear.)
Mr. HERRIES also appealed to the Noble Lord to
withdraw his motion. He entirely concurred with what
had fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet,
that it was the House generally, and not individual
Members, who were responsible for the charges incurred
in printing returns; but he must at the same time be al-
lowed to add that he thought the Honourable Member
for Montrose had rendered great service to the country
by the returns he had moved for.—(Cheers.) Nor did he
believe that in moving for these returns the Hon. Gen-
tleman was actuated by motives of animosity towards
any department, but rather by an honest desire to bene-
fit the people.—(Cheers.)
Lord DRUMLARING disclaimed all intention of
making this motion for the sake of reflecting upon the
conduct of the Hon. Member for Montrose, and said he
was quite ready, after what had passed, to withdraw it.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn
COMMONS' OFFICES.

On the motion of Mr. PARKER, the following gen-
tlemen were nominated as a Select Committee on House
of Commons' offices:—Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Vernon
Smith, Mr. Goulburn, Captain Jones, Mr. Brotherton,
Mr. Cardwell, Sir John Guest, Mr. Roche, Sir Edmund
Colebrooke, Mr. Sotheron, Mr. Thornely, Mr. Parker,
Mr. Miles, Mr. George Hamilton, and Viscount Man-
deville.