The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-08 00:00:00

ing the report of a musket at his the course of the
n igh Hear, hear. !) .systp;n. of krl:9l. bad rendered this
Act necessary, though. he by no ineanS intended to say that
the gentlemen .of Ireland. had negitecied their duty. He der
plored as much as any man the calamities 'which afflicted that
country; he deprecated that •intolerable. nuisance the tithe Sys-
tem, and he was persuaded that it would work its own destruc-
tion. He wished for the eshiption of conciliatory measures;
but, for the sake of the sufferers under these excesses, and in
to the people themselves, he would" Vote for the pre:.
sent measures, in order to put a stop to further outrage.
Mr. DAWSON rose principally with a view to notice the
observations of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. 'Newport), res.,
pecting his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department. The Right Hon. 'Baronet, whose high-
character gave importance to every thing which fell from him,
had referred to a resolution proposed by hiM (Sir J.' N.) in the
year 1817, for an inquiry .into the evils with which..lre-
land was then afflicted, and which resolution had been op-
posed by his Right Honourable Friend. The Right Hon.
Baronet must have forgotten that his Right Hon. Friend
had proposed several Committees in the course of that very
year. all having for their object the relief of Ireland from the
subjects of complaint. He need only mention the Committee
relating to Distillation, and that . respecting Grand Jury Pre-
sentments. And because his Right Honourable Friend had,
at the end of a Session, declined adopting 'a sweeping mo-
tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, he was accused of. an
indisposition to remove the evils alluded to. That motion of
the Right Hon. Baronet was supported by a very few of his own
friends ; and the House would therefore be enabled to judge of
the importance which ought to be attached to the observations
of the Right lion. Baronet. He (Mr. W.) was unable to judge,
from the speech of the Right Hem.- Bartmet, whether he intend-
ed to support the present Bill or to oppose it, but it certainly
would be most extraordinary.if he did not support it.-(Hear,
hear, from Sir John Newport.)—He (Sir John Newport) had
in the year 1817 supported the Insurrection Bill, in conse-
quence of a single meeting which had- taken nlacp some time
before ; and surely he would not 'resist the till now, when
nearly the whole South of Ireland was in a state of Insur-
rection. His (Mr. D.'s) principal object in troubling the
House was to do justice to his Right Honourable Friend ;
but with respect to the measures now under discussion, he
thought them highly necessary, and gave them: his hearty
support.
Sir HENRY PARNELL-wits sorry to differ from th4:4o'
with whom he was generally in the habit of agreeing ; but lie
had had opportunities of observing the state of the'country, and it
was his opinion that the present measures were absolutely ne-
cessary.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—He did
not think that the whole of the evil had been stated in the
papers laid before the House by his Majesty's Ministers. Yet
lie did not agree altogether with the Noble Marquis, for •he
thought the cause of the evil should be strictly inquired into.—
(Hear, hear !)—lf the House was seriously inclined to bring
the country to a state of .peace they must go to the bottom of
the evil ; and he sincerely hoped that some gentleman compe-
tent to the task would bring the *situation of Ireland, with re-
ference to the cause of the present evil, under the consideration
of the House. .

Nix.. D. BUTLER expressed his apprehension of the conse.
quences of confiding the powers of the Insurrection Act to the
agistracy. Most of the evils experienced in Ireland arose from
the oppressions the labouring classes endure 4 from the middle.
Few, perhaps, knew the meaning of the term. The middle
man was a person generally possessed of some property, who
took large farms of land from the proprietor, which he portioned
out into small ones, for which ,he received an'enormous rack
rent. The consequences were, that there was no bond of con-
nexion between him and his uncertain tenantry, and they were
consequently left defenceless to the rapacity of these middle
men. This was a state of things which set men one at wax with
the other, and called for redress promptly from the Legislature.
Mr. GRATTAN reviewed, in a cursory way, a few of the
causes of the prevailing discontent and outrage. He did not
hesitate to admit, • that much bad feeling was excited by the
rigorous manner in which the Excise persecuted the miserable
offenders against the Excise Laws. The peasantry sought to
raise by this practice as much money as would pay their rent ;
and he greatly feared that private stills would continue to be
resorted to for this purpose. , He felt strongly the objection to
entrusting the M agistracr with the powers proposed to be vested
in them. From what he knew of theirs, he was of opinion that
Government could not grant a greater boon to Ireland, or
more easily defeat 'unjust preferences and favouritism, than by
depriving them of the excessive power they already possessed.—
(Hear !)
Sir F. BURDETT next addressed the Muse., ,but for some
moments his observations (owing to the noise which prevailed)
were not audible in the gallery. He was 'understood to ex=
press his surprise at the conduct of the Noble Lord (London-
derry), who, for upwards of twenty years, had the opportuni-
ties of knowing the real state of Ireland, of ascertaining the nu-
merous evils which pressed upon her, and of becoming acquaint-
ed with their causes, yet had neglected-all inquiries, had delay.
ed every remedy, until now that he called upon the House to put
down by force those mischiefs which he himself had thus negli-
gently suffered to accuinulate-4 H ear, hear!)—He confessed he
did not see why the House should consent to go on with those
thentemporarywhich were thus used for a time,- and
they became again necessary. He was
laidasmideeasutilreis,
surprised that the Noble Lord should have the face in that
House to get up and call for a repetition of those acts of dreadful
oppression (for such lie would call them, 'however necessary)
without giving to the Legislature an opportunity of inquiring
into the nature and origin of the evils for which these palliatives
were required. Was it tube tolerated, that Ireland should know
nothing of this country, but by bloodshed and the gibbet ?
(Hear.)—He for one did•not think that the evils of Ireland
were to be remedied by such means ; and that this was the
prevalent opinion in the House, he learned from what he had
heard on the present occasion., He perceived that every Mem-
ber
who gave his support to the proposed measures, did so
with considerable, reluctance, as if convinced that the remedy
of the evil did not lie in them. lie was glad to witness this
sympathy, and he trusted they would act up to its sugges-
tions by compelling the Noble Lord to look about him, and
to do what he. had so long and so grossly neglected. It
was said that the disturbances in Ireland did not arise from any
political feelings. He firmly believed they did not. It was
impossible that greater affection towards the Sovereign Gould be
evinced, or that a stronger sense could be entertained of the
compliment paid them on that occasion, than was shewn
the Irish people in the recent visit of his Majesty to their coun-
try. This feeling was not limited—it Was generally felt through-
out the island. That visit had, he believed, done some good ;
but it was impossible that his Majesty should work miracles:—
, Had Ministers taken advantage of his Majesty's visit, as they
ought to have done—had they instituted measures for ascertain-
ing the causes of the evils which for many years afflicted that
country, and taken pains to apply the proper remedy, the House
might have been spared the painful task which they were now
called upon to perform ; but he would ask, supposing
the mischiefs existing in Ireland to be as bad as they were
represented—still he would ask, what remedy was there in 'the
suspension of the Habeas Corpus ?. Surely the Government had
already the power as much as it would then have of arresting
persons on suspicion. The suspensionof the Habeas Corpus
did not give them more, for under that they had wi authority
to arrest any man without fair ground of suspicion.—( Hear !)
He maintained that the Government ought to be ashamed of this
conduct: and lie attributed the whole of it to the system of the
Noble Lord, who had suffered those evils to increase, and now
came down with great complacency to ails the House to trust
his incapable hands with a power which he had before grossly
and wantonly abused. It was said, that the exercise of this
great power was to be confided to the Magistrates. He
(Sir Francis Burdett) was not sufficiently acquainted with Ire-
land to be a competent judge in this 'respect ; but from everything
which he had heard in the course of the present discussion, the
Magistrates were, least of all others, the Judges to whom such
I a power should be confided. A Noble Lord (Mountcharles)
' had stated, that, before the month of October last, Ministers
were made aequainted with the disturbed state of Irelend, and
that they were at that time petitioned to call Parliament together to
consider of the -subject. Why had they not done so ? • Instead
of this, they suffered the mischief to reach its present intolerable
height, and then cattle down- for freSh pbwers; as' it they had
been occupied all the time only in endeavours to preserve their
places. IS ow, with respect to a remedy; he had no hesitation in
saying, that the Noble Lord at the heed of the Irish Goyyrnment,
who, from his great talent and character—his feelings being so
much in unison on the subject of the distresses of Ireland with
those of th el rish people—was the best who could have been :elected
for 'that office : he would say, that he would muell prefer see-
ing full power put into the hands of that Noble Lord for
a time, than assent to the present' scandalous and' isgraceful
measure. The Noble Lord would well know how to apply, and
Would exercise it discreetly for the benefit of his .cduntrymen ;
and be (Sir F. Burdett) would put more confidence in tae
cacy of his measures, when acting on hist own character,
and from his oven feeling; than he could possibly have,
when he acted only as the organ of the present administration.
—He would admit that acts of great outrage had been com-
mitted, and that their repetition ought to be prevented. He)
in common with all othi re, condemned 'them ; yet it should' be
known that. they were not the result of deep
.wickedness, brit
arose from the pressure of such accumulated miseries, that no
man, eiho.liftedhis area to prevent er avenge the ihjury, but
must deplore the fast of the unfortunate beings who had been
driven to 'vl'olllll t'.ssion. The HOn.' Baronet 'agiin: adverted
to whet he degas ' tress neglect in the Noble Lord (Lon-
donderry), •tae .• ' 1.- 'Leah] instrument in efthcting 'the
Union beteee. " -es, and thereby,. deprived. Ireland
of tint wh7e ..e . • haVe worked her 'ezildation ; but
whe'.:lifid, , yeers, sriffeeedthoee evlls
./crer,E) t.• e to prevent their. After again

adverting to the propriety o confiling greater pewer to the
hands of the:
.Noble Lord at the head of the Trish
Go-
vernnierit, the "Honourable. Baronet otiseeved, that if
tern carried such measures as the present ',tate execution, with-
out at the same 'time institatinwew most minute inquiry into
the rear condition of Ireland,. and the cause of her grievauce.s,
it Would have the effect only of irritating and disgusting the
people. Ile would not go farther into the subject at present
but. conclude by saying, that if gngland wished to retain pot.
session of. Ireland, she must alter her system ; and he might
add, that it would be much better to get rid of her altogether,
than attempt to preserve our authority by a system of injustice.
Mr. Le'ILBERT had no Objection to some strong measures
for the purpose of putting down the present outrages ; but he
would maintain, that unless they were accompanied by mea-•'
sures of conciliation, and an earnest endeavour to redress the
numerous evils, with which Ireland was afflicted, they would
only have the effect of considerably increasing the irritation that
prevailed in that country. He would mention; as one cause of
that irritation, the tithe system. If ever the peace of .Ireland
was to be brought about? it must be by the total abolition of
that system. He was against confiding such extensive powers,
as by these Acts would be given, to the Magistracy. He fully
admitted that amongst them there were most respectable cha-
racters, but the whole body of them were not so ; and it was
well-known that in Ireland justice was bought and
(Cheers from the Opposition.)—He entertained a hope that the
Noble Lord would'consent to inquiry. '
Mr. AI3ERCROMBY thought there was no ground 'to juse
tify the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. The NOble
Marquis opposite urged as a reason that a great portion of the,
population of Ireland, now loyal, might by the progress of dii-
affection become the reverse, unless strong.means e were taken
to check the present disorders. But on such a speculation
it was impossible for Irimf conscientiously to' support an
Act for suspending thb liberties of the .people of Ireland..
He (Mr. Abercromhy) was quite 'dissatisfied with the dis-
patches of the Marquis Wellesley laid before the ll.ouse.,
and he believed the majority -of its Members concurred
in that feeling. He certainly had expected •it would' con-
tain a comprehensive systematic description of the existing
disorders, and a general description oldie character of theenea-
sures required to be applied as a remedy. Instead of that, how-
ever, nothing was contained in these documents beyond what had
already appeared in all the newspapers, but even lessiheasninch
as it was a barren journal of a number of events. .According to
more recent intelligence, especially from Cork, the rebellion, as
If waa termed by the Noble J i arquis,-wastegirfnic g iorribato„.auld•
all that reniained was, a continuance, and perhaps an increase in
the North of Ireland. The only thing upon which to ground the
passing of the lnsurrectionAct was the M emorialofthe t)agiStrates
of Cork. Theydescribed the nature and extent of the evil,but what
remedy did they ask for? Not the Insurrection Act, but a.geeater
Military force. The provisions of the Insurrection Act, if passed,
eould.not be enforced without a larger military *force: • -He did
not undervalue nor disbelieve the .eitistence of the danger, bnt-
he could not think this Act calculated to meet it,' and that Was
the only ground of his opposition. The Noble Marquii said;
that Government was not to be intimidated, and therefore they
were not to enter into'a consideration of the •gries.aces which
had led to these outrages. At the same tixie he said that the
Insurrection Act might be required, beyondthe preXent''Ses-
sien, and thus, by the admission ?ef this principle, the import-.
ant consideration of the unremedied grievances .of this people
might be postponed. This was too dangerous, a• principle to
be admitted.

Mr. HUME said, he had a question to put to the Noble
Marquis, on which he was sure the whole House was imitedaa-
He adverted to the necessity there was of soine consideration
being given to the tithe system; and lest the Noble Marquis
should suppose he brought the matter forward without a careful
consideration, he begged to aasurebirn, and all his friends knew
it very well, that the tithe system had occupied his serious at-
tention for the last three tnonths.—(Laughter.)—He wished to
know if the Noble Marquis would support a motion togo into a
Committee on that subject, and he would give him the benefit of
his services, having devoted,so much attention to the subject.—
(Laughter.)
Sir L. COLE stated, with reference to what had fallen from
an Honourable Member on the subject of an improper appoint-
ment to the Magistracy in Limerick, that if any•eircuinstance of
the description alluded to were known, or communicated to the
proper platters, they would cause the appointment to be broken.
Mr. GILBERT (we believe) stated that four affidavits of
the facts he had alluded to were sent to the Chancellor of
land, but the individual in question still continued to act as a
Magistrate.—(Cheers.),
Mr. D. BROWNattributed • the present state of Ireland to
the consideration of the numerous grievances which afflicted
that country having been postponed from the time of the Union
to the present period.
Mr. Cl. GRANT said, that: in discharging the painful and
'melancholy duty of giving his assent to the measure before the
House, he was swayed whblly by the conviction of its neces-
sity. He had had the honour, a year and a half ago, to state
to the House his opinion of the Insurrection Act. He still re-
tained that opinion as to the principle of it. He was as hostile
as ever to its becoming a part of the permanent systetn of the
Government of .I.reland.,--(Hear, hear.l)-e-ltut, ;ioe.r.-
tended that there might not be a state, the continuance of
which was not worse than the infliction, of the' Insurrection
Act.. He never maintained that it was not better .to
give up a principle we love, than endanger by retain-
ing it the very existence of society. Therefore it was
that, yielding to the severe necessity of the case, he must
give 'lns vote' for the passing of the Insurrection Act. He
knew how much 'was thus granted to the local Administration
of Ireland. He knew under what awful responsibility those
acted who were entrusted with power over the lives of his Ma-
jesty's 'subjects. But at the same time he knew of the gradual
diffusion, of the spirit of disaffe.ction, and he could not_ allow an
evil to extend and take refuge under any principle that he might
have laid down. When he (Ma C. Grant) was is Ireland, .he
did not see.that which would justify such a measure, and he
confessed the Report Of Marquis Wellesley, on the table, did '
not in his mind furnish oufficient, grounds upon which to paas
this Act, and that if it had not been for other information and
especially what had reached town that day, he should not.,:have
consented to it. But that Nobleman's general view of the
mode of Government suited to Ireland so entirely accorded
with his own ; his ardent zeal to promote her happiness,
and the expectations lie formed of. being able to accom-
plish his wishes in that respect, were so creditable to him
that he deserved they should pass this Act as a Marla of
confidence worthy to be reposed in him.—(Hear, hear.)—
He was convinced he never would have asked it, unless he
were sure that the safety,. of the_ country required ;it: He
was sure that it *might safely be entrusted to his wisdom and
discretion, and that so far from taking refuge under it to shel-
ter himself 'from further inquiry into the grievance§ which
bore upon that country, it would act as a stimulus to hasten
and to invite the attention- and discussion of Parliament upon
them. When he (Mr. C. Grant) was in office, it had been his
wish ,to enter more deeply lath the circumstances of Ireland,
and he had intended, in the course of this 'Session, to do so._
ne was not tO be stopped on account-of this•meas'ure, which
rather had•the effect of rendering it a more imperious duty
on 'him. If called on to point out one of the principal
grievanma he should say it .was, -the whole of the tythe sys-
terre:—(l-leitt !)—He would not, however, then enter uuon that
subject. , tae gave his vote for this measure as a proof of regard
for the Irish people, whom he was about to place under the au-
spices Oa Man who he believed, was: reserved too them gobd;
and under the belief that his Majesty's Ministers would readily
remove those Bills whenever they could findan opportunity of
doing so.—(Cheers.) • .
Lord Et RI NGTON objeCtect 'to. passing the'lnsurreetititi
Act, because he saw nothing in the papers before the House to
justify the exercise of More extensive powers than were given
by the existing laws; and hecause that Act was in itself odious,
and acquired additional odium from the hands into which it was
to be placed.
Mr. BROUGIVAM and the Marquis of 140NDONDERRy rose
at the same Moment, and the Noble Marquis sat' down.:

31e. BROUGHAM assured the House and his Hon.Triend
on the.other side (Mr. Grant) that it would give him great sa-
tisfaction if he could agree with him in his views as to the mem.
sure now proposed, although his Honourable Friend was so
tn
well infOred; and entertained such' enlightened view-A'. of
policy on all subjects , connected with Ireland, which had
contributed so much to' the benefit of that country; and
would have contributed still mere, had his official residexice
in that country been prolonged. lie now spoke froth the
impression matte on his mind by the official ' conduct of his
lion. Friend ; and they differed only in regard to their voceS
that night; for he fally'agreed with his Right Horn Friend
that 'every possible, degree of. confidence might be reposed i
the Marquess-Wellesley—a fact that Must be evident to ever
one who considered. his-, hil h character., It, was, hoNevecY
beeitiise he (Mr. Brougham) did not' consider this' measures
as one inditative of
,confidenee in the Noble Marquis 1 that
he should oppose it ; and' because, if the measure was
called for by necessity, it wound Ttter at once to pass' a
vote vesting the present Lord Lieutenant of -Ireland .with
extraordiniiry'pOwera, as the exigithey• of affairs- night re-
quire. Instead of such a law, as this, would, it net be better
to adopt a specific reMedy • to' the iMme.diate exigency of af-
fairs ? What • right had the. Noble . Alarquiato call on the
House to hurry a businesi of 'this 'kind?. What occasion was
there for hiirry? If expedition .in a measure of this.kind .had
been necessary, why was not Parliament assembled sooner
Why did 'not Parliament meet . before Christmas ? But the
Howie had evidence before it that night sufficient to chew that
'things were in 'such 'a . state in Ireland that' much evil 'might
have been prevented liad. parliament , been called in the
month of October' lest: 'Welt 'the GoVemment never to
act'.s*.a rational! policy; by,. .thc. adoption of precautionary
meatires ?=—by adopting suchrdeasures ag should prevent,