The Sun.
London, England, 1822-02-14 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

(OUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. 13.
In the Appeal Case of " the Representatives
of the late Sir Henry Vane Tempest v. Burton
and others," the LORD CHIEF JUSTICE delivered
the opinion of the Judges, and judgment was
,postponed till Monday next.
The Marquess of BATH presented a Petition
from the Inhabitants of the Vale of Taunton,
praying 'for Agricultural Relief.—Laid on the
Table.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
- .
MISCLLANEOUS.
1. rd LOWTHER presented a petition from. Kirby Lons.
dale, praying for a protecting duty on the importation of Fo•
Grain.—Ordered to lie on the Table.
,Bililt were brought in to erect a Church, to he called Saint
Lobe's Church, and to establish a Wholesale. Fish Market, se
,Liti44l)ool-.-Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second,
.14r, Rk PX,E4 fOok the oaths and his ,seat.
MR. FLANIGAN.
•

• Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from an indi-
!Muni who complained of bring much ill turd in Ireland.—
!The Petition set, forth that the petitioner had been conspired
-against by a party of Orangmen in 1817. That he being in
custody s.ook alum a little way off the road to a domain he-
-,,lionging to him to receive some money that was due, and this
sioptluct on his part bad been construed inteeateescape and an
assault on the Officer. In the absence of the Noble Marquis
.(thittiarcinis of Londonderry) he was unwilling to bring the
.subject forward, but the importance of his doing so had beep
atrongly,nrged on thepart of .the Petitioner, as it prayed for
a copy ofan information, which it was of importance to obtain
before the ensuing Assizes. In the present situation of file
;wintry, when economy was so much talked of on the other
aide,nlthe House,. lie must not venture to move that the Pe-•
tition should be printed; he should therefoie only propose,
for the present, that it should be brought up.
PP Ela thought the course pursued by the Hon. Mem-
bet was perfectly reasonable. He was ignorant of the name
of the petitioner, awl perhaps he had never heard it, though
the circumstances mentioned in the petition were stated to
laayskoecurrekwhile he held the situation of Chief Secretary
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. Doubting the policy and
seen the possibility of any interference on the part of that
Howe wills the Government of Ireland in this case, be could
not
,object to the bringing up of the petition, tbe,utotion for
printing it being postponed.
the Petition, which was from Thomas Flanigan, of Sligo,
"seas then read.
PirePAEL said he had, in the first instance, presumed that
he Might be ignorant of the name of the Petitioner,but now lie
had heard it mentioned, the individual was so notorious, that
he knew him well. From inquiries which he had already
made into his case, lie was bound to say that the present Pea
tition tontained gross falsehoods.
'Abe Petition was ordered to lie on the Table,
• • 1- AGRICULTURAL- DISTRESS.
Sir E. • KNATCH BULL presented a Petition fruit the
Owners'and Occupiers.of Land in the Eastern Division of the
County of Kent; complaining of Agricultural Distress, and
praying:relief.--Ordered to be printed.
.other. Petitions of a similar nature from the same County
• were presented by the-same. Honourable Ittemher.—Ordered
to be printed.
A Petition was presented from the. Owners and Occupiers
of Land et -Henley on Thames, complaining of Agricultural
.Distress.—Ordered to be printed.
.Mr. CURTEIS presented a Petition from the Owners and
lOccupiers,pf Land in the Rape of Lewes and Penenley, corn-
plaining of Agricultural Distress. '1 hese Petitioners had al-
ready called the attention of-the House to their case, but had
only.- been answered that they must wait with patience : they
had done
.so, but had experienced no relief. They had called
on Parliament to save them from the injuries which they en-
dured fkom the wanton and unnecessary importation of the
cheap and ,untaxed corn of other countries. He concurred
with them in their view of the subject, supported what were
called the reveries of " Webbe Hall," and thought such pro-
tection desirable. He entered into a brief examination of the
merits of the system of averages, which be considered to he
one that never worked well. The. Warehousing System did
not meet with his approbation, and he thought it would be
'better to give the King in Council power to open the ports, in
case of any sudden eniergency,than to persevere in the system
at present acted upon. He was friendly to economy. This
he had proved by the votes which he had given on the first
day of the Session, and on Nlonday last, when motions, not
rile best tinted, perhaps, had been submitted to the House.
Bat, he had voted as he did to redeem the pledges which he
had given to his Constituents, and he proposed to continue
to act on the same principle. He was of opinion that con-
.siderable benefit would be derived from a small issue of Ex-
ohequer Bills. The, tithes now levied on the farmer de-
manded consideration; but whether, nit!) respect to them,
ay; alteration could.be made that would afford relief to the
isuded interest, he was reit prepared to say.
Mr. ELLIS did not wish to enter into a general di4cusion
:.)the,topics which had been brought forward by the HUH.
.Gentleman on this occasion.; but be could not sit there and
not notice the arguments wich had just Keen urged en their
nonsideration, which arguments had been disclaimed, lie be-
lieved, at, every county meeting. Those who attended the
meetings in Sussex, he could nut say whether or not they
were the sense individuals from whom this petition came, had
deetared it to be their opinion that nothing could relieve the
existing distress but economy, retrenchment, and diminished
taxation. The .Hon. Gentleman supported what he rightly
called the reveries of Mr. Webbe Hall. They were indeed
reveries that went to maintain the idea that the sintie prices
could now be obtained fur corn that had been paid during
the war. A heavier priee could not he paid by the consumer
and it must therefore he the endeavour ,if Parliament to
enable the farmer to grow it at less expence. The plan sug-
gested by a former-Committee for keepitig imp the price of
corn could not now he resorted to. The Legislatut e must do
what they. could towards putting the farmer on a level with
the grower of corn in other countries, and this would save
both the trade and the manufactures of the country, which
would be placed on a basis not to be shaken; and till that
were accomplished, .they Must remain in the slime feverish
state' in wiiich they had been seen erer,sinct the French re-
voint ion

WODEHoUSE re7retter4to hear that the Han. Mem-
ber for Sussex.wris one of disciples of Air. Wehhe Hall.
if such we.re the fact, his case wa, desperate. This he would
without pretending tOknow mote than'tvery other Mem-
ber might ktmw, that no party—at' least no extensive party,
would
.act in the spirit. of those principles Which the Hon.
~Gtmllentaa bad .nnfortunately adopted. •
Mr, HUME thought the Hon. Member for Sussex conic
forFa rd to- complain of the conduct of-the House with a
,rety had grace, after the hoc of conduct which he bad pur-
,•!,:ord. He begged to ask in 'What instance had that Hon.
G.-tolerant-I voted for-any of the reductions which had been
called for iit tlte course of the last -Session ? 11 he had voted
fir none of them,, he had not dime what he might have done
to aid the petitioners, and the plans which he had suggested
fur their relief, lie (Mr. Hume) reizardrd as visionary.
The Petitirm was then .brought. up ,and trai :and ordered
to he „printed.

.•
Sir -W, GUISE presented a Petition from arse ral Occupiers
of Land .ia•the County of Gioncestei, Vraying that the Agri-
fotet eat may be protected, by laws similar to those
which protect the Mercantile totes-est.—Ordered to be
printed.
Siryi. pu.Rns moved for a return of the turns declared
•by the Chamberlain due to tlie Orphans' Fund, applicable to
the liquidation of the de-ht.—Ordered.
The Non. naranet Hien moved for returns of the stuns paid
...weekly on accouqt of coals and wine to the Orphans' Fund.—
Ordered.

HE'iITHCOTE moved for accounts of all the grain and
Hour seat ehoused under. the Act of the late King, and remain-
ing in warehouses, in Jan. 1822.--,Ordered.
Mr. MAUI:LEY moved '(or accounts of !he quantities of
flax, dressed nod undressed, imported in the fears 1821 and
:8 --Ordered.....:, • - • • •• •
Mr. fIUME looKed for returns of the establishment and
expense of the V4ccine Board, with the salaries ?hod patties
of the persons attached,--i'llis motion was wade in the can-
yjetion itiat Iwo. thirds of thu grant, annually voted to that
roahlirlirtient, aright he saved, without
_injustice to any of the
individuals c,ssinected with raisers were ordered. -
The flop. Mesa *-x. theu, -moved fur a rout intuition -of flue
return granted. last par of the Dumber of ;Half-pay Okras
in England awl ,Irc!attd, awl the total amount of the cluarp
fur the lame. • •

He then moved for a return of the total number of first ap:.
pointments of Comets raised to the rank 1.1 Lieuteilatitv; of
Lirotenints tiii.,Captains; Captaips to Majors.; and Majors
to Lieutenant4;o6.ols distinguishing the nuwhr•r of each,
-ht-tween Jaroary.'•Lti3l; And January 182?, .anii the total•
amount of the.,sz/ple, and dittjnguisking ivhrther with or
wit hont ourchoe..l.—Ordered. . - • . . .
Mr. fiIDME. next nioted .for returns of ail defaulters in the
rohJi..;.Seavice; in the.Arnay; the Navy, in the Civil Depart
nt, *Moog the_Coropaissioners of -the foar and a half pri

cents., or any other branch of the public service since 1810.
—Ordered.
He then moved an Address to his Majesty, praying 'for a
return of the total establishment f the Mint, with the names
of the officers, the salaries, and allowances of each, and spe-
cifying where houses were provided, or house rent allowed.
—The Motion was agreed to.
Mr. LIISHINGIQN brought up an estimate of the wages,
wear and tear, and ordinary expenses the seamen and
marines in the Royal Navy.—Ordered to be laid on the table.
Mr. LUSHINGI'ON, seeing the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen in his'place, begged to ask if he bad any objection to
postpone his motion, which stood for to-morrow, relative to
the ditties on Hawkers and Pedlars?
Mr. HUNIE postponed his 'notion till to-morrow fortnight.
Mr. DAWSON brought -up the Reports of the Commis-
sioners appointed to inquire into the state of Public Chari-
ties.—Ordered to he printed.
On the motion of Mr. Huma, the Order of the 11th Febru-
ary, relative to fees received by Officers in the Court of Ex-
chequer, was discharget).
A Petition was presented from 403 occupiers of land in the
county of Warwick, complaining' of Agricultural distress.—
Ordered to he printed.
Mr. DAWSON brought up a Report relative to the situa-
tion of per Sons under sentence of transportation.—Ordered
to be laid on the table.
CONVICTS' LETTERS.

On the Order of the Day for going into a Committee of
Supply being moved, for the purpose of postponing it, •
Mr. HUME,. seeing the Secretary of State for the Home
Department in his place, begged to take this opportunity of
mentioning, that a letter recently addressed to him by a con-
vict on board of the hulks, had been opened before it came
into his hands: He wished to know by what authority this
had been done ?
Mr. PEEL said, the practice had been to open all letters
coming from convicts, lint having done so, to forward them to
their destination. The same regulation was acted upon at the
Penitentiary. If the regulation were adopted at all, it ought
to be acted upon grin rally. He could see no reason why a
letter addressed to a Merrher of Parliament should be ex-
cepttd from the rule. If this were allowed, a Member of Par.
liament might be made unconsciously the instrument of fraud,
as letters might be inclosedunder his cover, which he might
forward by the post without knowing their contents. Of the
propriety of the regulation, he thought no doubt could be en-
tertained. It had been the menus of defeating repeated efforts
at escape. In April, last, four convicts would have effected
their escape but for this regulation. During the night they
bad sawed away four iron bars, and were only prevented from
accomplishing their purpose by a guard placed on the outside
of the prison to intercept them, inconsequence of information
which had been obtained in the way he had described. Were
proof wanting of the importance of the regulations in ques-
tion, it would be furnished by the Hon. Gentleman's own cor-
respondent. Since the letter to which the Hon. Gentleman
ha 4 alluded, that very individual had been detected in a gross
attempt to commit a fraud, by means of a letter which he
had written, and which had been opened. The name of the
man lie believed to he .Jones ; and he had recently been de-
tected in an attempt to commit a fraud on a very respectable
person.
Mr. HUME wished to know at what date the fraud referred
to by the Hon. Gentleman had been committed? He had
seen the Captain of the vessel in which the individual al-
luded to was placed on the last Sunday but one. and then
nothing had been said against the man ; but, on the con-
trary, his conduct had been mentioned with applause.
Mr. PEEL could not say at what precise date the fraud
referred to had been committed; but he apprehended that it
was very recently, and most probably since the time men-
tioned by the Hon. Gentleman'. The man Jones had written
a letter wider another name, and it was by this that he had
been detected in a fraud.
. Mr. BENNET thought no answer at all had been given
to the complaint of the Hon. Gentleman. tie thought a
convict ought not to be prevented from. complaining of any
griesance or ill treatment to a Member of Parliament. If
surely a person acted improperly, the consequence was, that
he lost that remission of punishment which was generally
allowed to those who behaved themselves well. The point at
issue was not, whether a convict might send a letter to A. 11.
or C., but whether or not he should be permitted to send a
letter to a Member of Parliament without being liable to
have it first opened. He did nut see why any penitentiary
regulation should be copied to authorise the officers of a
jail or the bulks to open a letter so addressed. He
would read to the House a passage from a letter written
by Lord Sidmuuth, dated November 9, 1814, which ran
thus:—" it appears that a practice of opening letters
from prisoners by the officers of jails has obtained, un-
der an impression that they have a right to du so."—
(Lord Sidmouth here made no allusion to the practice of
opening letters addressed to lentbers of Parliannent.) " I
feel it necessary to state," his Lordship continued, " that it
is my opinion the law will not justify such a proceeding."
Phis was tire opinion of Lord Sitintouth in 1814, but now,
forsooth, a letter was nut to pass, even to a Member of Parlia-
ment, without being first opened. Could it be supposed, that
arty Member of Parliament would correspond with a telon for
improper purposes? They could only act on such letters, to
do good, by inquiring into the abuses they set forth. He and
his Hon. Friend, un the letter in question baring been re-
ceived, had gone dovvn no the writer of it, to examine the
complaint. They inquired into the matter, in the presence
of the parties, and the result was, the statement was pi overt
to be completely false. Hr thought. it was desirable that per-
sons in that unfortunate situation should have the power of
appealing to a Member of Parliament, on' the treatment they
experienced.

Mr. PEEL did not see that any new light bad been thrown
on the present question by the reference made to the letter
of "Lord Sidmouth. lie thought, in the course which had
been pursued in the case now referred to, that there existed
no disposition in any quarter to withhold information on such
subjects front Members of Parliament.
Mr. JAMES complained that a letter, which he had .written

to a person in connernetit, who was not a felon, had been
opened. He had put a letter under a cover, and sent it to au

. • . ..
individual in a prison, with a request to the jailor that he
would not open it. The jailor had replied that.whe-ther he
.did 'right or wrong, he had thought it his duty to open the
letter. He would appeal to this House, whether this was
proper?

. -
Mr. BROUGHAM thought it right to take this the earliest
opportunity of entering his protest against the principle con-
tended fur by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that a letter ad-
dressed to a Member of Parliament might be opened before
it came to him. Good God ! it this practice were to be coon..
tenanced, where were those privileges which were said to be
given to them, not for their own advantage, but for the good
of the ',curie, on which they never faded to lecture when any
individual was brought to thric Bar. The case mentioned
by the Member for Carlisle (Mr. James), of a letter sent
from a Member of Parliament to a prisoner, was a different
case, but he was convinced that the privilege of a Member
of Parliament gave him as good PI right to receive his let-
ters unopened as it did to claim exemption from arrest. His
letters ought to pass free-and unaffected by any regulation of
gaols or hulks. To say they ought nut to pass, because the
privilege might be abused, was
.to say nothing, unless it
could be proved that Melt other privileges were not likely to
be abused, as all of them had been. With as much reason.
might their privilege of freedom from arrest' be taken front

them, because they might avail themselves of it to cheat
their creditors, as many former Members of that House had
done, as Withdraw from t hem the privilege of receiving their let-
ters unopened. Whenever this question came to be tuoved in
a more regular way, he should have no hesitation in
_saying,
that beyond all doubt a gross breach of their privileges had
been committed, whenever a letter addressed to'a Member of
Parliament had been opened ..b.efore it was forwarded to its
destination, on any pretence whatever.

Mr. DAWSON said, the letter which had been opened was
not one that bad been sent thrinigh the post•ofiice, hut one
that had been given to the care of an individual. No harm
had been done, as it appeared to him, seeing the letter was
not detained. .

fhe Committee of Supply was then postponed till Friday.
,1: r. JAMES gave notice, that Oil the Thursday in next
week, he would call thu atlention of the House to the prac•
Lice of opening letters addressed to Members of Parliamtut.
DISMISSAL OF SIR ROBERT WILSON.

Sir R. WILSON said, were the motion which he had now
to make limited to a personal or private object—were it one that
concerned only himself, deeply as he might feel that he had been
outraged and aggrieVed, for vaeibus reasons, some of Whieli
might be disclosed in the course
.of what he had to offer, he
should have been disposed to submit in silence. But knowing.
that the public were interested in it—that the question affected
even the. safety of the subject, he should feel that he might be,
reproached with.: a dereliction of duty if he refrained from
bringing. it before the Hom.c. ArduOuS and painful as the
duty was—and most arduous".and painful he felt it to be,L—yet
was he most 'happy that the moment was at length arrived,
when, in the face of his adversaries, in the face, of-that House,
and consequently in the face of Europe,' he could redeem the
pledge which he had given to his constituents, 'and vindicate
his character before a generous and confiding public. He need
not solicit the patience of the House. He was sure of its being
granted with alit courtesy which was- the characteristic of a
British House of Commons. When he gave notice of his mo-
tion,lie. had asked a Noble Marquis on the opposide side of the
-House if the papers which he desired to have' produced would
be granted. The answer which he had received left him no al=
ternative but to adopt the course he now took—that of bringing
all the circumstances of the -case into disciission. Though his

adversaries had preserved a most unjust, injurious, and unman-
ly silence before, and denied him all insight into their reasons
for taking the course they bad pursued, he might be excused
for expecting that at the meeting of-Parliament they would have
been most ready to give him the papers he had called for, and
fully prepared to substantiate some charge against him. He had
the more right to expect that when he saw the Government join-
ed by Gentlemen who professed to act on the principles of a
Noble Baron in. the other House, who had declared " that
he hoped he shhuld never see the day. when the Government of
this country would withhold any information that might be
necessary for the justification of .an arraigned individual."_
The more he thought of it, the more he was surprised that in
this country, the boasted sanctuary of justice, he should be de-
nied a knowledge of the facts on which he had been arraigned
in secret councils and on ex-parte statements, and adjudged
by a clandestine process. He was not there to question the right
of the Crown to dismiss its officers, but to-prove that what had
been done was in violation of the British Constitution, and an
infringement of military law. He would shew that the course
taken was against the just rights of the army, and against those
of the peopleof England, anti .went to disqualify Officers from
sitting in that House, and doing their duty to their country,
necessary as it was that such persons should be diffused through
the army. The prerogative so exercised appeared dangerous
for all bad purposes, unnecessary for all good ones, and had
never been used—arbitrarily he meant, but to abuse the right
of an individual, and to the prejudice of public welfare. But
the question he would propose could not be said to trench on
the prerogative of the Crown ; because he believed,• and he
hoped his confidence was not misplaced, that neither this nor
any prerogative could be exercised but by the advice of respon-
sible Ministers, nor carried into execution but by responsible
agents. There was a time he well knew when the principle, A I
DEO REX, ET REGE LEX was contended for. Ile knew that
the Judges of England had contended that the King of Eng-
land had a right to determine what should be the law of England,
and that it had been pretended he was authorised to punish, be-
cause he had power to pardon. He knew that there had been gene-
rals who were such traitors to their country as to threaten that they
would hang those Judges who controverted this doctrine,
and there had been a King who maintained that as it was blas-
phemy to God to call the Scriptures in question, so it was trea-
son to the King to doubt that what he did was law. These
opinions, however, had been corrected by the Revolution of
1638. He would now call the attention of the House to the
character of the parties, and the circumstances of the case.—
First of all there was an Officer, of twenty-nine years standing,
who, though he had no proofs of his services from the Govern-
ment, had obtained from his Commander-in-Chief those distinc-
tions and professional rewards to which he had aspired. This
Officer had felt it to be his duty, as he declared to God, to op-
pose the Ministers, as being injurious to the power, the interests,
and the character of the country. He was cashiered; but was
this degradation from rank intended to make him powerless to
do wrong ? or was this step taken from some morbid feeling of
resentment--from some malignant political feeling ? If such
were not the case, why was that portion of his property which
had been vested in his commission confiscated ? Why was this
unprecedented step taken against an individual. It had been
supposed that his dismissal from the army necessarily involved
the loss of his money, which had been vested in his commission.
This was not the case, as would be seen from a letter of the
Commander in Chief. That letter to which he alluded, in con-
sequence of the new regulation made in 1814, set forth, "that
Officers holding regimental commissions might have the option
of retiring from the service by disposing of the same at the
regulated value." Why then, that regulation being in exist-
ence, had-he been cashiered, and thus subjected to that pu-
nishment which the Legislature regarded as next in severity to
the punishment of death ? Was it resorted to with the miser-
able feeling of inflicting pecuniary privation ? or was it the
object in view to impair his circumstances, compel him to give
up his seat in that House, and seek a refuge in a foreign coun-
try ? It was painful to him to call the attention of the House
to his private circumstances, but he thought if he did so, their
sense ofjtistice would make them sympathize with him. It was
notorious to the world that it' had pleased Providence to afflict
more than one member of his family with the greatest of all
human calamities. When it was seen that Ministers under
suchtcircumstances had attempted to levy domestic war against
him in order to injure the prospects of his unoffendmg child-
ren, he was sure that there would-be one feeling on the subject
—that it was done in - aggravation of calamity. The course
taken had been most injurious to him. This he would prove
by what had occurred in Prance. Several officers of high rank
who were not in any way hostile to him, had every where stated
that they were satisfied and persuaded from his removal, under
such circumstances, that if brought to trial, greater punishment
would fall on him, and greater disgrace on his family. The
Ministerial Journals insinuated the same thing. Not a clay
passed in which he was not made the subject of sonelibel,
which the parties knew could not be visited. in a Court of Law.
An Officer of his standing., rank, services and description being
thus dismissed, the fair inference was, that it was because he
had degraded himself. by some unworthy act. What circum-
stances, he wished to know, ought to deny an officer, who had
served his country in so many battles as he had, that protee-
don which the humblest man in England had a right to ex-
pect from the law of the land ? He called on the (embers of
the House, as a part of the Legislature, and as men fof
justice, to protect him. He conjured them, on this occasion,
to dismiss all party feeling, and to give .him that mea-
-1 sure of justice which they would desire for themselves,
for their children, and for their relations. If he had been
guilty of any offence, the army
that
the country had a right
to know what that offence was, that it might serve as an ad.
monition to others. What was the object of punishment ?
example. But what benefit .could result to our military esta-
blishment by the infliction of punishment when the crime was
concealed ? Such conduct was not a mild act of justice; it was
an act of no justice at all. The principle was atrocious. Even
the Turk, whom it had been the object of the Government to
sustain, when he used the bow-string to strangle, or took off
the head of an offender, condescended to make known his
crime by affixing a label to the victim's breast ; and was he to
be denied even this poor boon ? The conduct of Ministers in
this case he regarded as part of a system of terror—the pre-
cursor of a military government. If the House sanctioned it,
they consented to make Officers in the Army the blind instru-
ments of the Sovereign's will, and made nugatory and fruitless
the wise regulations and generous labours of their ancestors.
He had done all in his power- to avoid bringing this matter
before the House. He had used every exertion to keep it in
the official channel. He went to the Commander in Chief till
he was forbidden to appioach the Throne ; he went to the
Secretary of State till he was prevented from prosecuting per-
jury by the conduct of persons in office. Placed in this
situation, what remained for him to do but to bring his case
before the House of Commons ? He would now proCeed to
the facts of the case. The task which he had to perform was
difficult; as, not knowing the charge preferred against him, he
had to grapple with shadows, and to imagine an accusation.
But he would tell the, truth—the whole truth—and would
endeavour to do so with all the circumstantial details he could
give ; and he called on those Membeis who had been present
at the scenes to which he should direct the attention of the
House, to remind him of any circumstances that lie might
omit, as he could declare, upon his honour, that there was
nothing which he so much desired as to bring all the facts
fairly before the House. The Government would not deny
that his dismissal originated in some disaffection, growing
out of his conduct on the 14th of August or some other
circumstance connected with the demise of her late Majesty.
The Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to detail what
occurred hi the following terms :--" I was at Paris at the house
of Count Orloff, on the 9th August, when I was informed by
the British Ambassador, Sir Chas Stewart, that a telegraphic
dispatch had just been received, announcing the death of
the Queen of England ; t mention that circumstance because it
was stated that the news was brought to me 'when,' was dining
With a party of thirty officers, whom I had shocked by the
manner in which I disclosed the event. Ministers can ask the
Ambassador where I received the news, and what were the
feelings I expressed on the occasion. I determined on leaving
Paris immediately. The Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. '
Ellis) was there, and kindly consented to wait till the 11th,
from Thursday till the Saturday, up to which time that Honour.
able dentleman, who is now within the House, can static that w e
knew nothing more than the decease of the Queen. Leaving
Paris on Saturday, we travelled all night, and were within a
pest or two of Boulogne when we met a French courier, and
from him I learned that her late Majesty had desired that her
remains might be conveyed to Hanover. [" To Brunswick,"
one or two voices said.] —I think the Courier said, that she
had desired to be conveyed to Hanover. We were at Bou-
logne on the 12th. Having crossed the Channel, I immediately
wrote 'to Dr. Lushington, to say, that I had just arrived in
Erigland to pay the last. duties to her Majesty, and that
placed myself entirely .at his disposition. If the Learned
Gentleman is now in the House, he will confirm this part of
my statement. I wrote a letter to my son to ascertain where
the Executors of the Queen would be found in the afternoon of
the following day.' We arrived in London on the 13th, between
two and three o'clock in the day. My son told me that the
Executors were then at the Queen's house, and a carriage was
waiting to convey them to Hammersmith. I went there, but
was too late. I then went.to the house of Mr. Alderman Wood.

He told me he was just going to Brandenburgh House, and
kindly offered to take me with him. The Hon. Member for
Ellis—l mean the Hon. Member for Coventry, was
,present,
and agreed to go with us, and I beg of him to confirm or dis-
prov‘e this part of my statement. It was always my intention
to attend the funeral in one.of the mourning coaches which it
was expected would be provided by Government on the occa-
sion. I mentioned this to Mr. Alderman Wood,.who informed
me that he had been refused a place in one of them, but
added, " You perhaps may be more fortunate.", I replied,

" I shall not put myself in the way of a refusal, and expose
myself to an insult like that which you have received." We
went to Brandenbugh House, and waited there till after five
o'clock, but no executors came. While there, I had no com-
munication with any one but those of her Majesty's house-
hold, and the persons employed in snaking the arrangements
for the fitneral. We left Brandenburghe House shortly after
five, and crossed to the Queen's house, avhere we found Dr.
Lushington and another executor. We found them engaged in
a controversial communication with Government, and not cer-
tain whether or not the funeral would take place on the next
day. I was informed that if I went to the Freemasons' ta-
vern at nine o'clock, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen would
be there, and he would be in communication with the execu-
tors, so that I could know from him whether the funeral would
take place on the following day. Mr. Alderman Wood invited
me to dine with him, and said he should meet Mr. Bennet at
his house. I could not accept the invitation ; and I said I
should be obliged if Mr. Hume would call on me on his way to
the Freemasons' Tavern, and tell me the result of the corre-
spondence with the Earl of Liverpool. The evening passed
away, but Mr. Hume -did not come,_ so.I determined to go to
the Freemasons'iTavern, thinking he might have been pre-
vented from calling. I was shewn into a room where about a
dozen persons were waiting for Mr. Hume. I was asked to
go up stairs, but I refused to do so, as I had no inforniation to
communicate. I then returned, and got back so quickly, that
my relation, Lieutenant General Bailey, could hardly believe
that 1 had been to the Freemasons Tavern. His words
were—" Rapid as you are in your motions, I can hardly be-
lieve that you have been there and back in so short a
time." I, however, had been there and back, and had gone
on foot. This is important, as going there, I know, was con-
sidered material matter of charge. I then went to Bruce's,
where 1 knew I should meet the Hon. Member for Ipswich,
and hoped to see Dr. Lushington. The lIOn. Member for Ips-
wich informed me that he was not there, but was expected at
a later period of the evening. Dr. Lushington and Mr. Wild
came at a late hour, and were then engaged in framing 'ano-
ther letter to the Earl of Liverpool, and still ignorant whether
the funeral would take place on the next day. It was agreed
that we should meet on the following morning. I accordingly
rose the next day, and went to Mr. Alderman Wood's. There
mounted a little chesnut handsome hack horse (and not, as I
know was said in the information given to Government, a tall
dark thin horse), belonging to the worthy Alderman. Having
mounted this horse, we went to Brandenburgh House. On
the way a Member of Parliament overtook me, and I conversed
with no person but him on the road ; and he knows that we
had then no information of any obstruction being intended. I
remained at Brandenburgh House till eight o'clock. While
there I had no communication with any one but some of the
household of the late Queen and the persons employed under
Government to conduct the funeral. ' It was indeed hardly
possible that I should, for the police officers with much force
prevented those from going in who thought they had a right to
enter. When the funeral was about to move, we were re-
quested to go down into the room where the coffin of her late
Majesty remained to hear the executors' protest against the re-
moval of the body. We went down, and the protest was made.
The authority by which the body was to -be removed was then
demanded. A paper was shewn. I saw it. The paper was not
signed by any Secretary of State or by any other-person ; it was
merely the programme of a procession. It was then that I
spoke to Sir G. Nayler, who was there; I know not exactly
what character or office belonged to him on that occasion, but
he officiated on the part of the Government. I told him that
there were several Members of Parliament, who, with myself,
wished to pay a tribute of respect to the deceased Queen, and
if it were not objected to, we proposed to ride by the side of the
procession. Sir G. Nayler replied, that was not regular—it
would be contrary to rule established in such cases. " Your
place," he added, " and that of all the other Gentle Men, must
be after the last mourning coach." I immediately communi-
cated this to the Members who attended. We proceeded
through a heavy shower of rain to Kensington. When half
way between tho turnpike and Kensington Church, there was
a halt. We halted for above an hour, when some one came
and told us that a barrier had been raised to obstruct tI e
procession, and that the soldiers were attacking the people. I
remember. we rebuked him, and he was especially checked
by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury, who said, " You
are reporting that which is false—putting such rumours
in circulation may lead to mischief—hold your tongue."—
Some of the people wished to follow us, but we turned them
back by saying—" You cannot go with us." We then went
forward, and I fell in with a detachment of the Blues, and had
some convaisation with their commanding officer, whom I
knew by face, although I did not knoiv his name. I believe
him to have been Colonel Bouverie. He had then sent a mes-
sage to the Earl of Liverpool, to know whether tire procession
was to pass the City or not. He concurred with me, that that
would be the best mode of preventing violence and disordena-
A baggage waggon had at that time been drawn up across th
lane by the people for the purposes of obstruction. The Of-
ficer in question then remarked—" I am here only in the
command of a guard of honour, and . I have no authority for
performing any other duty ; but the people are doing very
wrong, and particularly towards the soldiers, whose baggage
they have stopped." I acceded to this, and immediately went
forward to try to induce the people to remove the_ waggon, and
set it at liberty. I went, in the company of my Hon. Friend
the Member for Aberdeen, and addressed the people. I told
them that the soldiers would want their baggage and other com-
forts at the end of their march upon so wet a day, and that if
the waggon was detained they world be subject to every in-
convenience on their arrival at Windsor at night. This had
the desired effect, and the people said -" Oh, yes; put the
horses to, and let them go on." The Commanding Officer im-
mediately acknowledged my services in the most unequivocal
manner. I then went up a lane, where a servant seeing me so
wet, kindly asked me to take shelter under a gateway, wh'ch
I did, as well for the sake of myself as my horse.' I after-
wards returned, and went on towards Hyde Park-corner. On
the road we were met by a Gentleman who came riding on
horseback, and told us that Sir Robert Baker had given orders
for the procession to go through the City. So far from
any hostile feeling exhibited at that time, the people seemed
quiet and pleased. After going On • very peaceably, to our
surprise, as soon as we had passed the Hyde Park gate,
the heads of the foremost horses were turned up Park-
lane. The people thought they had been deceived, and sheweil I
signs of resentment. The Gentleman who said that he had re-
ceived the promise of Sir B. Baker that the funeral should
pass through the city, was questioned, anti compelled to repeat
what he had before stated. The hearse eventually proceeded
through the. Park : and when we-got -to Stanhope Gate, there
was a slight stoppage. I then saw an Honourable Member of
this House gallopping down the Park, who saluted us in pass-
ing, and who I concluded was going to order up fresh troops.L.
Immediately afterwards a party of cavalry did advance up the
Park, and the people-being vexed, made-use of irrit kting lan-
guage. But I saw no stone flung at that period. Upon ad-
vancing towards Cumberland Gate I saw what I should call
the refluent population coining from thence. I afterwards
learnt that a report had been 'confidently spread and believed that
the Life Guards were cutting down the people. But they were
only then clearing the ground with that regularity and dispatch
which their duty warranted. Upon my arrival at the gate I
found it shut ; but a man who knew ma, and whom I did not
know, immediately' opened it and let me pass. When I was
through the gate I found the Blues formed in regular order
round the hearse ; but the Life Guards were broken and. scat-
tered about exactly in the state of cavalry whom I have seen
repulsed, or having failed in a charge. They had evidently
departed from all order or command, and whatever might have
been the original-provocation, of which I knew nothing, I saw
clearly that -there was no necessity for the continued firing
which was then going on. I therefore sought for the Command-
ing Officer, but without effect. I then asked a party of men
whom I saw fire whether they had received orders to do so ?
They said they had not received orders, but that they had been
ill-treated.—(clear, hear !)—I then went to another party who
fired in the direction of Ty-burn Gata, and I asked them the
same question. They said they had received no orders to fire,
but that they had been grossly ill-treated beyond what men
could endure.—(Hear,-hear !)—I then saw a man, who from
his dress I took to be a Marshall-nail, and he came up to me
and said, " Sir Robert, they are only firing blank cartridges
to frighten the people." I then moved on, when a pistol was
fired, and a ball passed so close to my face that I put up my
hand to see whether the blood followed it. I immediately
turned round to. the quarter from -whence I supposed the shot
proceeded, and I saw men deliberately re-loading their pistols.
I then said, without the slightest warmth or anger, " This is
disgraceful; you see the people are unarmed : do not disgrace
your conduct at Waterloo, You have had cannons fired at
your heads, never mind a few stones." So cool and collected
was I, and so devoid of any thing like intemperance when I
said this, that I did not even accompany it with an oath. I
then saw a gentleman in plain clothes, mounted upon a caval-
ry horse, whom I supposed to be a magistrate. I went up to
him, and entreated him to take the command of the military
force, to have the officer by his side, and net to' let him quit it.
That Magistrate at, the time made use of a remark which would
fully justify my view of the soldiers' conduct. But I shall not
repeat it, .as I would 'rather have it from the mouth of the gen-
tleman himself at the. Bar of this House.-.-(Cries of "Speak.")
—I should rather not repeat it at present.—(Continued cries of
" Speak," from sonic Members behind the Honourable Knight.)
—I will not repeat it now, because I am determined in no wise
to .he an accuser upon the present occasion. My object is to
defend myself.—(Loud cheering.)—l- then saw the gentle-
man whom 1 supposed to be the Commanding Officer of
the party, and I told hint he ought to be with the Ma-
gistrate. lie said he had given no orders to fire—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—and that he was sorry that any firing should have
'taken place. I then brought the lagiStrate to this OiEcer,

who I understood was Major Oak. I should here reined'.
that when I spoke to the soldiers in the manner I have stag
to the House, they appeared to feel the rebuke; and- infal
there was no firing after that period. Major Oakes then 0`
that his men had done the duty for which they were sent there'
which was to clear the road at Cumberland-gate, and he show°,
therefore take them away. Ile then wheeled, as if to lea'
them past the hearse, through a great crowd of the people, ;tel.
where there were a great many loose stones. I then said, 1
you will allow me to make a suggestion, I think it would be
better to turn up some of these streets to the right, than for the
men to go through the midst of the people under existing eir;
cumstances." He said that he would execute that plan, and
accordingly wheeled his men back and turned up a street t°
the right. While the party were turning round the corner, a
large piece of the pavement was thrown at them, and struck a
soldier violently on the casque, and the .man. behaved with re-
markable temper and patience. But I declare that during t'°time of the tiring.which I saw, thc.throwing of etones.waitO'
partial, and riot such as to call for such severity_ .Soon afttr.,_
this, an officer of the Blues came up witha party of menewirt
fresh orders from the Earl of Liverpoelh I:wentett the of*. n'
and said, " You are, perhaps, not aware eV what has paelaciuh
between the troops and the people, and that the latter havetdaw
fired upon. They are disposed 'to renew the"
disturbancee s>9d
as you have only six men, you had perhaps better retire, ger*
have no farther duty to perform." The officer acquiesced .11°
my opinion, .and said, that' as lie had executed, hiseduty,'he
would thkehN Men. away, which be accordingly did. Some",
thing then entangled the wheels of the hearse, and the, peOPL°.
shewed a disposition -to take advantage of it, to turn the how
down another street towards the city., I and hey friends iotr
fered, and actually had the hearse put into its proper aralpre'
scribed route. The Honourable Member. then stated, -that
lie fell into his place in the procession, and went on with
it without further interruption. The 11 on.• Gentleman wag
understood to say, that be returned•to his own house to dinner.
The Noble Marquis opposite ought to h,eoe that this was. tler •
case, for he must undoubtedly have int-veinal, when it had been
regularly given in evidence that he dined somewhere on the.
road that night, and drank a toast, which in itself was moat lod-
ger, if not treasonable. He afterwards went to. Harwich ; and
with regard to a transaction which occurred. there,. he covilw.
appeal to his Honourahle Friend the Member for Winchelsea,
as to the part which he took in it.v.iiiiem.laetttoenctlheed.bthode'yreonflot,; ir:
of her Majesty's remains from the
church, as a mark of -respect due to the illustrious deceased
but he had no share in the controversy which ensued; 1.111.10
he returned to town, he was told by his friends of various ru-
mours which were afloat, and one told hint that he was at least
to be hanged, drawn, and quartered, for directing and planning.
the obstructions made by the people on. the day -of, the Queen's
funeral. For three days these rumours continued to be repeat-
ed, He was proud to say, that he possessed the friendship;.of
Lord Harrington, the distinguished Nobleman who commanded
the First Regiment of Life Guards, and he repaired to lira; to
inquire what line of conduct lie ought to adopt. ne found that
Nobleman from home, but he mentioned the subject to, his gm
Meanwhile the•reports continued, and sonic said, that he was
to be turned out of the army ; others, that he was re be sent
before a court martial. In this situation, he was advised and
rather disposed to make a •statement to the Commander-ill-
Chief. Eventually, however, he decided that it would not be
consistent with his situation, and his friends agreed, that it
would be altogether inexpedient. lie then determined on'
waiting upon his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief-
He did so, but found that his Royal Highness was at Brighton.
He could not think of following him thither to interrupt him
with his own personal business. He therefore saw the Military
Secretary of the Commaiider-in-Chief, Sir Herbert Taylor, to
whom he made a represeptation of the whole facts of the case
He told him also, that he was ready to inset the reported come
plaints in any shape which it should please his Royal highnesa
that they should be brought against him. Ile teen told him
that he had left two of his children in Paris, totally unsettlede
and that he asss Obliged to go there, where he should be reads, t°
receive any commands from the Commander-in-Chief. Sir H•
Taylor then made a minute which was in effect, " That Major,
General Sir R. ‘Vilson called upon Sir H. Taylor on the 23c1 of
August, 1822, and stated that many calumnious reports bar- •
ing been in circulation regarding his conduct on the 14th of
August precedingt—he did not feel himself at liberty to make
a representation to the Commander-in-Chief thereupon, be
that he was ready to meet them at all times and to rebut them'
The Hon. Member stated that at the same time, lie did giro
Sir Herbert Taylor a statement of the facts for his own infor-
mation. Not receiving any communication from Sir H. Taylor
up to the sth of September, he then went to Paris. After being •
there some time, on the 19th of the same month he received a
note from Sir C. Stuart, stating that he.wished to see him as he
had, something to communicate to him from the Ministers. Be'
fore going to the Ambassador, he happened to enter one of the
public coffee-houses, and there lie saw in a French Paper an
' extract from the English Courier, announcing that he had been
dismissed from his Majesty's service. Upon waiting on Sit
Charles Stuart, he received from hint the following note, signed
by his Royal Highness the Command6r-in_chief:_
" Sin—l have it in command from his Alajesty to inform .
you, that his Majesty has no further use for your services." •
Thus, he found that, in two lines, lie was stripped of his
rank, and plundered of his income.—(Hear, hear, hear!)--10
would say plundered,—(Cheers)—and a stain endeavoured to be
cast upon his. character. With regard to his Royal Highness .
the Duke of York, he knew, and should always consider, that
he had acted only in conformity to the King's commands. He
should always have to feel grateful to him for repeated acts 0.1 • •
kindness manifested towards him ever since his connection wirh.
the army. He immediately wrote aletter to that illustrious inthe
vidual, to which he should only refer, as it had been published in •
every shape. On September 24, he felt it necessary to write
to Major Oakes, upon a statement which had appeared in the
public prints, which was so devoid of truth thanhe felt a strong
necessity for noticing this calumny, although ha overlodked •
others. On the 25th of September, he received a letter -from ..
his Royal Highness the Duke of York, which consisted of ow'
line. It was as follows :—" Sir, his Majesty does not deem it
proper to comply with your request." He arrived in England
on the 7th of October, and•was still desirous of obtaining justice
from the military authorities; he therefore made another ap-
plication to the Commander in Chief, in which he referred to
his former statements, and pointed out the impossibility. ore
contradicting secret report. He stated his willingness to Place
himself under the jurisdiction of a Court Martial, notwithstand-
ing that his dismissal {had removed hint from it. He did this.
because he knew there was a precedent for it in the case of Sir
George Sackville. The answer he received was, that having •
laid before his Majesty all the former communications, his
Royal Highness did not feel justified in proceeding further
with the matter. Thus, he found his original sentence (.00.-
firmed. Yet he did not despair. He still thought that if he
could prove the falsehood of the reports which had been circu-
-I..ted against hint, he should receive justice at the hands of
his Majesty. He accordingly applied to Lord Viscount Sid-
mouth, for copies of the evidence which he understood-
some persons to have given ageim t him, in order that he.
might prosecute them- for perjury, when he was told that he'
had not applied through the proper channeL In the next'
place he went to Sir It. Birnic, who gave him a minute of some
evidence which had been deposed against him, but which the
Magistrates at the first investigation found to be false. He then
heard that there had been some evidence taken in the office of
the Home Department about his having been seen with a
pewter pot in his hand, encouraging the people to tumult
and disturbance. He applied again to Lord Sidniouth; and
was told, that the Noble Viscount did not consider hirnselfjus-
tified in granting the request. This might be official justice,
but it was -not consistent with the principles of justice re-
cognized and acted upon elsewhere. It now becamohis duty
to advert to the correspondence between himself and Major,
Oakes, which, as it had not yet been communicated to any
but his immediate friends, was of considerable importance.--
The Honourable Member then read a letter from himself
to Major Oakes, dated Paris; September 24th, 1821, stating,
diat he had seen a report in The Times newspaper respecting 's .
conversation between them, which it was desirable should be
contradicted, as it was not founded in fact, ;led was of a
most injurious tendency as a fabrication. The letter further
stated, that so far from any thing hostile having take?'
place between them, Major Woes would recollect that
their conversation had been meet friendly and courteous. It then ref err.d to a conversation, in which Major Oakes was „
said to have denied giving orders to fire, and Sir R.- Wilson
advised that Officer to act under the direction of a Magistrate,
and to turn his men in aparticular direction when leaving the
ground. In reply to this, Major Oakes wrote that he could
not consent to make himself the organ of contradiction to the
various rumours which were circulated, and if' he did so in this
case, he must in all. fie admitted saying to Sir R. Wilson,
that lie had not given orders for the men to fire, and hlso that
he received a suggestion from him as to the party turning.
down King-street. But he had no recollection of any courtesy.'
which passed between them, or of having said that he regretted
the firing. The Honourable Member having read the let-
ters' begged to observe that Major Oakes only stated that
he did not recollect these cirtuaneances; therefore there
was no discordance between them. Having thought it his • •
duty to get all the information he could in vindication
ot his own conduct, he had also applied to Mr. White,
the Magistrate, with ,whom he lead conversed on the day to•
queition. He applied to that Gentleman' therefore, to answer
the following questions :—" Did in or did I not, on the 14th
of August last, during the time of the funeral procession', •
express in your presence my anxiety for the restoration
.91-
tranquillity ? Did you, or did you not, observe me to act Jen.
conformity to that expressed anxiety ?" He mentioned to •
White, at the same time, that he should Make use of his al!
swers in Parliament or elsewhere,' if he • should' have occasion,
solo do. The answer which he recel-i,'ed from this Igagiss4 .

e rcival*;
ave sta,te°
id- irilofi
then sot
sent ther';
he shoal",
if to 101
3•
said, " tt
would be
lan for the
cisting
plan, and
a street to
corner, it
d struck I
ri with
luring t
was tlOt
Soon aft
n-ten,V;IP
the 'offlelr
pap.laq—
tiave-jem",
anae4 isoo
re, if/V.O
iesced

, that he declined answering the questions, because he dicf
not wieli to be 'brought into public notice, unless obliged to be
40. The Hon. Member stated that he had applied to Mr.
White again, not only on his own account, but for the sake
of truth and justice, but with no better success. Yet not-
kithatanding the reluctance which that Magistrate had shein,
.newas willing to rest his case upon the answers which he should
:Me, at the bar of that House, to the question of whether he did
not awe to him, in a considerable degree, the restoration and
the maintenance of the peace on that day?—(Hear hear, hear!)
\i'lat then was his offence ? Was it that he had' paid the last
nark Of respect to a deceased Sovereign ? If so, he had only
done.what Ministers themselves did ? for they paid her the
ree3P (* ect appointing a guard of honour to attend her remains.
li' this was not his offence, was it that of having stopped the
elision of blood ? He spoke not of the' original provocation
ail/ea-to the soldiers, but when he arrived at the spot, the con-
duct of the soldiers was, at least, intemperate. Was he to be
turned out of the army for using language of rebuke to sol-
diers under such circumstances ? That language would not
?flake willows and orphans; and he was quite sure that the
soldiers would thank him. for interfering after they had time
r": cool reflection. He had always felt a pride in wearing the
aritish uniform because it was worn by brave men ; but he
was the more proud of it because it was recognised in Europe
as being worn by men who supported the law, and who were
protected by it —(Cheers.)—Wev hater might be the decision
of the House, lie should feel conscious within himself that on
rilc?e 14th of August he had faithfully discharged his duty to his
, tog and country, and he now called upon the House to re=
(less the' injuries which he.had received.—(Cheers.)—He con-
;'lll,led by moving " For copies of the correspondence between
I' Royal Highness the Commander in Chief; Lord Viscount
'mai-mouth, and Sir Robert Wilson, in the months of September
`unl October last."
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Honourable Mem-
er had set out in his speech by disavowing the narrow basis of
Personal consideration, and of resting his case upon the broader
heof the general interests and liberties of the people. He
ii. 43 prepared to resist the motion of the Hon. Member upon
Le very same. principle, as one tending to attack one of the
?en
provisions of the Constitution, and thereby to infringe
?en the liberties of every Englishman. If there was any one
t'eLeeth, e prerogatives of the Crown more indisputable, and more
t,-,'''sPoted 'than another, it was that which recognized its
nr"‘ver to remove individuals from the Army at all times, with-
assigning a cause, much more shewing a reason. This pre-
“);Zative rested upon the most ancient usage in all periods,
`tl.4the could produce examples upon examples, of its exercise in
Netinies which Gentlemen opposite were accustomed to refer
le al the best, and the most worthy to be follower'. But he
Ivc.Aild only appeal to one single fact, which would do away
Ith the necessity for his referring to those precedents without
o
• tiolber by
would then whichappal to theis case could
fact that fin the year 1734, Bills
thened if it required
Viee- presented to both Houses of Parliament to restrain the
rcise of this prerogative, and in all the debates it was ad-
tbiliretby both sides that it did exist in full force. Since that
erne no laws had been passed to alter that prerogative, or to af-
:et the full exercise of its power. He was prepared to contend,
e°t• only that the prerogative existed, but that none was more
eressary, cot for the advantage of the Crown, but, as all other
Prerogative,' were held, for the benefit of.the -people. Without
discipline could not be maintained in the .army.—(Hear,
tiar 11—He repeated it, that withbut this power in the Crown,
necessary discipline of the army could not be main-
-4'l.—U:beers !) —lf an officer could not be dismissed
torn the army without the consent of his fellow-officers, they
i'erc creating a fourth estate in the realm.—(Hear, hear !)
e
dod thkt Parlyi ament
wou once make arm independ of the Crow,
e Id soon see thatthe the Army wouldent make itself in.
I,el3ewould bet
of th
found written em. Look at
in thletters e annals of our history, and the 4 of blood, that when the
ornament detached the Army from the King, the first act of
fl
}lle Army was to turn the Parliament out of doors—t Hear,
24r, hear !)—He must confess his surprise to hear these things
Elellported by Hon. Gentlemen who were so used to cry out
tEainst.the Army and its dangers. He contended, alien, that
"14 prerogative clearly and undoubtedly existed ; but he was
(Pite ready to admit that it was one which was only. to
i),e exercised under the responsibility of those who advised
,I`,, and must be, consequently, prepared to stand by the
t!-Irice which they had given.—(Cheers from the Opposi-
-I,,°_,)—Ele must also insist, that the prerogative, under
,;:r1 'responsibility, being wholesome and necessary, Parlia-
" Ought not to canvass its exercise without just and clear,
(eonds. There should be strong presumption of abuse.—
,Nl;eers from some of the Opposition.)--He repeated, that there
to Uld be strong presumptions of abuse, and he was prepared
tj.l!-a, that there was no such presumption in the present case.
ntinued cheers.)---The Hon. Member had insinuated that
th, ho„?tility of Ministers had been provoked by his activity in
tiouse.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)—This was
147 'Y plaCing a high value upon himself, and which, perhaps,
eeaers would not badisposed to grant. But the Hon. Member
tZ4inly.did seem to think that Ministers were afraid of his
A.nents, and so wished to get rid of him.—(Loud shouts of hear
pc
the Opposition benches.)—And he believed that there were
te;ftieians in that House who could think meanly enough of
pits opponents, to believe that they would be guilty of such a
trick. If Ministers were prepared to act upon such prin-
hte'h were there no other Gentlemen in that House who alsb
eele, can-missions in the Army, that were in the habit of syste
4ieeally opposing Government ? If that were the ground upon
be!en they acted, was there not a Gallant General, who, he
di,rfd, represented some Scotch Burghs, would have been
willrossed long before this. If that were the ground upon
til'eh the Honourable Member himself was dismissed, why
1; Ministers wait till the 14th of August, 1821 ? He be-
iiefveed that they would not
ontohve been wanting in opportunities,
Iselu,,Y had been disposed act, long before that period.—
rfee`lt was a notorious fact, that at all periods there had keen
step Military officers who always voted against the Mini-
s el; lie denied, therefore, that any ground existed for such
sae serge- -.Without going into any of the details through
eel eo the Honourable Member had travelled, there was
tire ground to justify the exercise of the King's preroga-
rilts4 what the Hon. Member had himself admitted. He would
, that where they found a person holding the King's Coin-
kitse i°; and wearing orders which he could only hold by the
cOnsent, remaining with a mob of persons who had
to'ft jnitted acts of disturbance and resistance to the lawful au-
that was enough ; that was a direct insult to the King.
*ts What should he say, when, according to that person's own
seeero, ent, he came and found the King's troops in a state
he'eea his military experience enabled him to know was that of
tees "g repulsed and broken, and reduced to the necessity of de.
liZt.ig their lives ?—(Loud cheers.)—After having risked their
ivy in the discharge of their duty, he did that which he knew
'ale the greatest act of military insubordination—he interfered
.t•ohlthein. they had disgraced themselves.—(Loud cheering.)
41v1,1. • Witr.sori—" No, no; I said they disgraced them-
140TY firing."
ikitt,r., PALMERSTON continued.—The Hon. Member
te'..!ave known that he was guilty of a breach of discipline
sfe-`erfering at all with troops on duty, who were not under
tle'''oreand. He therefore contended that the dismissal of the
lie,,4ourable Member was a just and proper exercise of an in.
h0e,4113t 'prerogative of the Crown ; and he called upon the
4 e to reject the motion.
f.elinreloA3lßTON said, that if he entered the House with
thelegB, of indignation at the treatment of his gallant Friend,
the feelings had been increased by the sneering tone which
e'ile°l:de Lord,had adopted him, as well as towards
uPir '4nt Officer, whose Military services would perhaps
As tea,eo, mparison with the civil ones of the Noble Lord.—
ordt_toe antiquity of the prerogative upon which the Noble
Iths dwelt he was prepared to deny it ; for it was not
(k‘e'rr4Olafortune of our ancestors to be acquainted with standing
Ossi les- The real offence of his
Majesty
Friend was that of
laeelt attended the funeral of her Majesty at all. But he had
it e", as it were, the servant of the Queen while she lived, and
teeeeanie his duty to pay her this last tribute of respec With
tY'etatd, to prerogatives being infallible how did itchappen
t)L? :14' had frequently been abandoned'? Was it not a pre.
tifita,ve of the Crown to remove the Judges; and had not
lt4.Prerogative been abandoned by the late King. at the outset
%141}ttireigo ? That was an act that had been most highly praised,
, e believed so. The Noble Lord had said that it was writ,
blood, that an army made independent by the
ikly'ottnent had brought a Monarch to the scaffold. He should
it ooked for some anterior cause for that event, and
!arletild have found it in the acts of the Monarch, endea-
,,kng to stretch the power of prerogatives beyond his right.
s on. Friend had exposed himself to personal danger, a
reerer :.which no man had ever despised more than himself.
irlg-the ball pass near his face, he very naturally turned
*44tp ~(1, and seeing the soldiers about to reload, lie told them it
Tep
--a.aceful to continue firing after the disturbances were
il
The Noble Lord opposite thought it an act of insubordi-
kilr! for his Hon. Friend to interfere at all. Undoubtedly
phihis lion. Friend been on duty, it would have been insulal
lotittl!t_tet' but he was merely an fficer on half-pay, in plain
!ve, e", and he spoke to the soldiers in a civil capacity. There
"e thought no man, not even he though the Noble Lord
10 Vt.te„.l%w_ho would not interfere upon such en occasion. Ile
44. thought it was the noblest of the many noble traits
!'e,';eeharacter of his Honourable Friend, that he had inter.
to prevent bloodshed. It was distinguishing part of
for he had ' a •
ooble character, displayed it even amid the
ere
the He wan He really thought it was most degrading
aarisenr House to be compelled to enter upon this discussion ;
nd g, as it did, out of a transaction in which the soldiery
to 4'unlereil sonn f fellow-subjects. He had aright
si,..:etilluticittiomnt,birydeor,nfeoer osuc, had been the character given to that
of. the constitutional tribunals. He (Mr.
..o)iacoieuil4odraliod no distinction between the arguments of the
. and those of the Minister of War, on the cases of

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Inform

power of Parliament than its own discretion,—(l-Jear„ hear!)
It followed, that it waS`riot-beCieis4'file House cettlefirtititute
an inquiry into every act of the executive, they should there-
fore do so. When the House was incited tmi 'go into the pre-
sent question, it became highly important for them to look
al the consequence of charging themselves with inquilies of
this description. They would 'charge themselves witis.the
task of revising the prerogative Acts of the Sovereign; and
especially upon military subjects. Before the bringing for-
ward of the present motion, he had always understood that
it was the undoubted privilege of the Sovereign of Eng-
land to dismiss if he pleased any officer of his army,. without
a trial; but front the law, as it had been iiecicred by Hon.
Members opposite, the commission of an Officer was in the
nature of a freehold tenure; that to take it awarwasnei•
titer more nor less than puislic rohbery, and that the power
of the Crown could not legally affect a Military Officer with=
out the previous sanction of a Court Martial. He thought
however, that when the House carue to sift the present ques-
tion to the bottom, they would find it was,..whether confi-
dence could be reposed, and not whether any crime bad been
committed. The Civil Government could not exist an boor
if tier principle of confidence were withdrawn. He pledged
himself to &hew that it was not necessary for an Officer to he
tried before he was dismissed. The Noble Marquis here read
an extract from the Articles of War, which declared, its the
language of the Sovereign, " No officer shall be cashiered
without an order from us, or-a court-martial."—(Sir Robert
Wilson here inquired, across the table, what was the outlier
rity from which the Noble Marquis was quoting ?)—The Mar-
quis answered, " from a he. Articles of War, which were regu-
larly legalized rby the Mutiny Act."—He read a paper in his
hand, strewing 2t2 instances of dismissal without court-mar-
tial, within the last five years.—(Cheers.)—lt was singular
that the 11611. Member had found nothing unconstitutional
in this practice, until it was applied to himself, There were
even cases of dismissal after the person had beets 'acmplitted
by a court-martial. There were a thousand circumstances
affecting character, affect ing. the bar:nosey imf a regiment and
other military subjects which could not be broright before a
court-martial, and yet which rendered a dismissal net
justifiable, brit absolutely necessary. Nothing was more com-
mon titan fur the Clown to aggravate the sentence of a court-
martial; and every officer entered the Array With a hell know-
ledge of the principle upon which that Army existed. He
really felt that he had been stating merely a succession of
truisms to the House; but fie would refer to an.authoiity
noon the subject which, he apprehended, would meet with
every deference front the Holt. Members opposite. It was
the opinion of the present Lord Erskine, when a similar case
was dated front Serjeants' Irrn in the year I sot, and was in
the following words;—" I ass bound to add, that the parties
are wholly without remedy. The will of the Sovereign is
time law, wi It respect to time commissions of military
officers. .When a military officer is dismissed, his military
character is gone; and even if he Las purchased his com-
mission he is without a remedy. He enters the army know-
ing lb s; or at least he ought, to know it."—(Cheers.)—
This was an authority which he thought would satisfy the
-Hon. Members; but he would rifer to another—it was that
of Sit Charles Morgan, . the President of a Costa Martial
which was lied upon a military Officer.—(The NobleMar-
(lois here read a short extract from the opinion of Sir Charles
Morgan, declaringthat it was quite. a 'sufficient authority for
the discharge of an officer, thatt he Kin!: did nut think it ex-
po bent any longer to employ him.)—After such authority, he
trusted that he should bear no more intimations that the
Commission of an Officer was his freehold, Thistonstitu-
tl,,nal p ,Aver of the Sovereign Was lodged in him upon the
wisest principles. It was necessary that he should repose
confidence in his Officers; arid that confidence Might be
shaken by many circumstances which woold not admit of dis-
closure before a court martial. He would again admit the
power of the House as fully as it was alleged; bell did the
Hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. N. Calvert) thitik that the'
House would be well employed, if, instead of giving their at-
tention to the distressei of the country, they were to go inmo
an inquiry at the Bar of the House, upon the statement which
had been that night made by the Hurt Mover? Did Bethink
that the.Hoose would he well. engaged its hearing such evi-
dence as had been adduced before tine tate memorable Coro-
ners' Inquests ; especially as the House, not having the
power to hear evidence upon oath, the witnesses would have
to depose on their honour? —(A laugh.)—Did he mean to say
that the mere absence of counter-statement justified the pre-
sent motion ? It was by no means impossible that the Hon.
Mover himself, in the view he had feirmed of his own case,
thought it was a fit one for the interference of theHouseysr
He disclaimed all personal feelings towards the Honourable
Member. He could not possibly have any towards hint,
arid he trusted the Honourable MeMber would believe him
when he said that he had no wish to give hint pain, or to
affect his pecuniary means; and although the Hon. Member
for Shrewsbury, (Mr. ilennet) had called him and his col-
leagues a band of plunderers, he really believed the Hots.
Member himself would not join in the charge. Every
thing had been laid at the door of Government ; te,id the eir:
curustance about the 'Hort. Member's son, Of which be (the
Marquis) felt it almost necessary to say he had never heard
before, had been brought forward with every possible effect.
It had been said that Miniiters were anxious for an opportu-
nity to dismiss ; tint could this he advanced as a serious pro-
position ? Could Hon. Members call to mind • do acts of
discretion, to say the least of them, upon which occasion
would not be wanting, if it were wished? 'Phis, however,
was a part of the subject which• was personal, and he would
as much as possible avoid it. .He asked how the House
could entertain the question ? If the Him. Member and
Ministers were at issue upon the facts, they must hear 1501
soldiers em one side and 300 constituents, perhaps,' of West-
minister on the other;—(Hear, hear!)—and without the
power of examining them upon nath. He Was willing to
give the Hon. Member everrcredit for the popularity Ire had
acquired.; but did not that very popularity render him more
dangerous in the situation in which he admitted lee had placed
himself ? The Heretic,- he contended, ought not to institote
an inquiry in the present ease, but leave the King's preroga-
tive to take its own course.—((heers from the Opposition.)—
The cases he had instanced ir) jtistifying the execution of the
prerogative, he would not apply to time Hon. Member; 'but it
was not because a crime could not be established •upon Old
Bailey principles that the Sovereign was to forbear exercising
his prerogative. The Sovereign was entrusted with time coos:
_ .

the Duke of Bolton and Lord Cobham, in which cases a pro-
test was signed by 36 Peers, besides the two concerned. Here
the . Hon. Member read the Prot6st, which declared that the
undersigned Peers conceived they had " a right to inquire into
the exercise of the Prerogative in a case wherein valuable
Officers had been dismissed the service without any cause as-
signed ;—that they were the more anxious for inquirY,lest the
world, without it, should suppose that. the Parliamentary con-
duct of those Noblemen had been the cause of their dismissal;
and lest a bad Minister in after times should avail himself
of that precedent to remove a person whose conduct in Parlia-
ment was obnoxious to him."—(Hear, hear !)—His Honour-
able Friend had a right to know who were his accusers. He
had solemnly denied all knowledge of the charge against him.
He had applied to the Duke of S ork, to the Noble Lord lately
at the head of the Home Department, and to Magistrates sup-
posed to know something relating to the charge, but without
effect. No man, he believed, could hear the speech of his Hon.
Friend, and not believe him innocent of the charge of stimu-
lating the people. to violence, and of obstructing the funeral
procession. Upon his conscience, he (Mr. L.) believed his
Honourable Friend to be perfectly innocent. He believed
him when he pledged himself to prove his innocence, and that
night his Honourable Friend had redeemed his pledge. If the
Noble Lord had chosen to rely entirely upon the prerogative
of the Crown, he might have done so ; but having referred to
the statement of his Honourable Friend, he (Mr. L.) conceived
the Noble Lord was bound to make out something of a case in
answer to it. If all his Majesty's Ministers approved of the
dismissal of his Honourable Friend, surely they would not ap-
prove of the system of continued persecution which had been
carried on against him since ; and of which he would give the
House an instance. One of the sons of his Honourable Friend
had been placed at the Military College as an Officer's son,
and a letter had been received from the College by his Honour-
able Friend since his dismissal, dated the 3tl of October last,
stating, that his son was no longer to be considered the son of
an Officer, and that the difference between 751. a year and
.1251. a year (the latter being the sum paid by private gentle-
men for their sons), must now be paid by his Honourable
Friend.,--(Hear, hear, hear!)—Thus had it been endeavoured
to carry the sysem of persecution into the inmost recesses of his
family arrangements. This, however, was but an example
of the practice now generally observed .by Government ; wit-
ness the dismissal of Lord Fitzwillican, for attending a Reform
Meeting, and the dismissal of Lord Fife, for voting for the re-
peal of the Malt Tax. All these acts chewed, in his opinion, a
deliberate intent to destroy independence and establish a mili-
tary despotism. Was this to be considered constitutional ?
W ere military officers to be the slaves of the' Ministers of the
day ? It' they were, where was to be that noble character, that
high-mindedness which distinguished the English Officer
from that of every other country ? It' such acts were to pass
unnoticed the Government would, he repeated, become a mili-
tary despotism. The services of his Honourable Friend were
known and admitted. Whenever there was danger he had
always been found at his post; but never was his name to be
found in the list of Rewards.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He was a
gallant and able soldier who deserved well of his country, and
in whose dismissal every constitutional principle had been vio-
lated. The Hon. Member concluded by declaring his intention
to support the motion.
Mr. N. CALVERT admitted the prerogative, but thought
it should be exercised under the controul of Parliament. lie
had come down to the House with an opinion somewhat against
the Hon. Member; but having heard his statement, and the
speech of the Noble Lord in answer, he resolved to support the
motion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said he had served his Sovereign fifty
years, and had always understood that an Officer on half-pay
might be dismissed without any reason being assigned. This
had been completely decided in the case of Lord George Sack-
ville. In the present instance he could not bring himself to
believe that the prerogative had been harshly exercised. • .
• Sir RONALD FERGUSSON said the Noble Lord opposite
had been pleased to observe upon his parliamentary con-
duct. He knew not, and he cared not, whether he was
to be the next victim—(Hear, hear, hear!)—but notwithstand-
ing the power of Ministers and their adherents, he was not to
be deterred from giving an independent vote in that House.—
lie did not deny the prerogative of the Crown, but he con-
tended that it must be exercised under the responsibility of
Ministers. Their conduct on the occasion now before the
House was, in his opinion, a miserable, base assassination of
private diameter, for the purposes of political intrigue. They
might shelter themselves under the prerogative, as they did on
the alanchester occasion, but they had profaned the King's
name, not only in that and the present instance, but also in the
dismissal of Sir Robert Baker, the Police Alagistrate.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)
Lord PALMERSTON begged to assure the gallant General
that he had not the slightest intention to reflect upon his Parlia-
mentary conduct • he had merely said that no Officer had ever
been dismissed the service for his conduct in Parliament, and
had instanced the gallant General, who had always (conscien-
tiously and constitutionally, no doubt) voted against his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. He was therefore justified in contending that
the reason given on the other side for the dismissal of the Hon.
Mover, was not the true one.
Mr. BENNET said, that although his Honourable
Friend was no longer an Officer in the British .service, he
stood high in rank abroad, and was possessed of a character
as a soldier of which no Minister could deprive him. He
should always call him the gallant Officer as he had been ac-
customed to do. He assured the House that he' could bear
testimony to the accuracy of the statement of his gallant
Friend:. He (Mr. Bennet) accompanied the funeral proces-
sion of her late Majesty to do honour to the• character of that
illustrious deceased, and to mark his hatred of her persectitors.
Up to the arrival of the procession at Cumberland Gate, he
accompanied his Hon. and Gallant Friend the whole of the
way ; and lie could declare that with respect to the whole of
what passed during that time, the assertions of his Hon. and
Gallant Friend were perfectly correct. For the sake of the
argument he would admit the King's Prerogative; but it
should not be forgotten, that the Prerogative must be exercised
by responsible advisers, and all that was desired was to know
who those advisers were on the present occasion. The Noble
Lord opposite had not met the statement of his lion. and
Gallant Friend by one single piece of evidence. He had
merely perverted that statement. He (Mr. B.) contended
that the present motion ought to be agreed to, upon the
principle of the case of Lord Chatham in the year 1809. Lord
Chatham was the Commander of the Walcheren expedition,
and had privately conveyed to the King a paper libelling the
conduct of a gallant Officer (Sir Richard Strachan.) A Reso-
lution was proposed for an Address to his Majesty, calling for
the production of that paper; and so strong was the justice of
the case, that although the motion was resisted by all the in-
fluence of Ministers, the Address was carried by a majority of
seven : and the paper, when produced, was the means of
forcing Lord Chatham out of offiaaa if the House did jus-
tice, not to his gallant Friend, but to truth and its own
character, it would grant the present motion. His Honour-
able and Gallant Friend had distinguished himself by al-
most romantic attachment to his profession. It was ob-
served by foreigners that he had led them on to battle and to
victory; that he had clahned and been rewarded by honours
among themselves, but had been neglected in his own country.
His situation was not like that of many unfortunate officers of
inferior rank,, whose loss might be equally flagrant, but not so
prominent as that of his Gallant Friend. He stood before the
country with 29 years of service in his favour; and he (Mr. B.)
believed one of his offences was the having attended the funeral.
On his conscience he believed another of his offences was the
having prevented the shedding of human blood. Yes, on his
conscience, he believed that his Majesty's Ministers wished for
a military execution-on that day. Of this he was convinced by
the conduct which had been displayed towards Sir &Baker ; and
he believed, from the tone which was observed by those who
were called the upper classes, that an opportunity was desired to
punish the people. His Hon. and Gallant Friend had sustained
a robbery of his property ; and was it to be endured that a
Minister was to stand at the elbow of the King, blacken the
character of a valuable military Officer, and advise- his dismis-
sal without conviction, nay, without accusation ? When the
Duke of York was arraigned at the Bar of that House for mis-
conduct, as Commander in Chief, he begged, in his letter to
the Speaker, that Ile might not be condemned without a trial,
and then it was that no less a person than the late Mr. Per-
ceval declared, that no British subject ought to he punished
either in property or in character without being furnished
with an account in writing of the charge against him, and
without being heard in his defence.--(Hear, hear, hear !)
His Honourable and Gallant Friend had not only not been
heard in his defence ; he had never been charged with any
crime, and had been dismissed in defiance of every principle of
decency and justice. He thanked God that the people of
England were not like his Majesty's Ministers. The people
had stepped forward to succour the oppressed and gallant
Member; and even the supporters of Ministers had said, " Only
wait until Parliament meets, and see what case will be made
out by Ministers."—Had any case been made out at all ? Ile
strongly believed there was not; and he thought lie should be
unworthy-of' the character of an English Gentleman if he did
not support the motion.
Tbe Marquis of LONDONDERRY assured the House he
did not rise to refute the charges of the Hon. Mesiber who
spolie last, who had charged Ministers with a desire to have
a military execution, and to plunder the Hon. Member who
had brought forward the present motion. It was not impro-
bable that private friendship, aided by the natural warmth
of his disposition, had induced the Hon. Member (Mr. Ben-
net) to bring forward eharges which of themselves required
no serious attention. 'The subject, however, which was ins.
raediately before the House was of a nature too grave for it
to be trifled with; and in addressing hiniself.to that subject,
lie would say at once that he knew of no other barrier to the

. -
:nand of the army; for the army was necessary to protect the
liberties of the people.—(Lood cheers from the Opposition.)--
He e!infessed lie was somewhat surprised at the cheers of the
Hon. Members, for unless his ears deceived him, he had only
3 nights ago beard from the other side of the House a case for•
Law.--J Loud and continued cheers from the Ministerial
Benches.)—Then indeed the cry was " Give us troops but no
law." Indeed a Noble Baron, when discussing that subject in
the other House had said—he begged pardon, he meant there
was a Nobleman who, in another place, had had a perfect by
drophobia fur troups.--(A laugh.)--To return, however, to die
case of the Hon. Member. His Noble Friend had not pre::
tended to make a counter-statement. He had.only said, that
upon the Hon. Member's own shoving, he had been guilty of
great indiscretion. Nothing could be more' calculated to
estrange the soldiers from their duty than the havingtheir Oa:
racters run down, and their feelings wounded, by officers not
on duty. The Hon. Member, on the occasion in question,
though not in uniform, had the marks of service in his bosom,
He wore a star, and be was generally known to be Sir Robert
Wilson, an officer of rank in the army. Wliat could he more.
likely to encourage the infamous and disgraceful conduct of the
people ?—(Cheers from the Opposition.)—To encourage those
factious spirits who degraded the Queen while living, and
could not be satisfied without attempting to promote their
views by her death. '11:e plan for obstructing the procession
was perfectly systematic ; fur entrenchments had been cut in
the road-way which it was to pass; and under these circum-
stances it was that the Honourable Member, arrayed in the
distinctive marks of his profession, appeared among the
crowd, and held a language which was calculated to call
down upon the troops the indignation of the populace. The
Honourable Member had said, that he saw no stones thrown
at the soldiers. Where then were his eyes ? Forty of the
soldiers who left the barracks in perfect health went to the
hospital in the evening, in consequence of the hurts they
received He wished it, however; to he understood,. that
he did not blame the Honourable Member fur attending the
funeral, as he had thought proper to do so. Had he left
the procession when he understood that the people had been
committing outrage, no one could have taken exception to
his conduct. . He protested against the notion that Parlia-
ment ought to interfere in any case like the present. Such
Hon. Members as thought, otherwise might return to the
times of 1731, when a Bill was brought in t• regulate or qua-
lify the exercise of the prerogative with respect to military
officers, but which had been scouted almost on its first intro-
duction. He begged, likewise, to protest against its being
thought that Ministers had entered into any counter state-
ment. Erroneous notions in this respect had a tendency in
these perilous times to encourage that factious spirit which
had displayed itself in acts of outrage on that day. When on

such an occasion an ()Geer put liiiuself forward as the Hon.
Member had done, ali subordination was at an end ; and if he
(the Marquis) were soldier, he would not continue ip the
service of that State which did not protect him against such
interlopers.—(Hear, hear !)—These were the grounds upon
which he should oppose the motion, after again disclaiming
all personal feelings
.towards the Hon. Member.
Mr. N. CALVERT, Sir R. WasoN, and the Marquis of Lori-
DONDERRY, mutually explained.
Mr. LAMBTON explained. He had said that ttn..Officer
could no more be deprived of his commission without trial,
than a Freeholder of his property without laws.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that his vote upon the question
before the House would have no reference to the motives

‘Ofigh actuated his Majeity% Ministers to advise the Crown
•as they had upon this ocresion ft appeared to him that the
lliineee bad but, one choice in,a thing of this'naturee which
was between tbe prerogative in question being left its the
hands of the Executive teethe Crown,. without.anyionntroul,
or being liable tp appeal to the House of Commons, in order
to review the, decisions of the Crown in the exercise of it.—
(Hear.)—The latter he thought to be full of, extreme date,
gers, especially as regarded its consequences upon military
discipline. Itt, the first place, such:a course would :tend to
being the leading Offifers of the Army and that House into
dangerous contact. Fumy all knew the consequences'-of the
fatal error, in a former period of nor history, of bringing the
Officers, of the Army and the Committees of. the,Housteof
Conimons into communication. It teas, therefore, because he
thought a most unadvised act had been committed, which he
felt the House was not empowered to go into, that he could
not support this niotiou. For such was the nature of the
act, that if She Papers were laid on the table, the House
must inquire into the subject matter of them. The principle
went: to render the Army independent of the Crown, ant de-
pendent upon that House, or rather upon any party it might
he able to command, in it—a principle which it was obvious
involved many dangers.--(Hear.)
Mr. HUME said that he should not feel he had done justice
to the Gallant Officer, if he Aid not testify to the correctness
and fairness of his statement. He could do so with the more
confidence mile happened to be with his Hon. Friend during
almost the whole time. The statement now made he could
aver to be correct. Before he proceeded any further,however,
be wished to call the attention of the House to the speech of
the Noble Marquis, which was of a most extraordinary nature.
Instead of answering the statement of the Gallant Officer, the
Noble Marquis bad introduced-ail irrelevant subject—the sub-
ject of the Queen, which Ministers ought tube the last .per-
sons in the'country to allude to. He hhd insisted On the pre-
rogative exerted in the present instance, hut. Mr. Justice
Blackstone seemed to have imbibed other notions of prero-
gative, when he defined it to be a discretionary power to act
for the public good, in cases where the laws are silent. The
Noble Marquis next referred to certain regulations of his Ma-
jesty, but the first thing to he done was to refer to the law
itself, and inquire whether those regulations conformed to its
principles and enactments? He had asked whether the House
would have the Army, as in former times, independent ue
them? The: answer was, nu; we will coutroul them by the
Mutiny Act. It was provided in a clause of that Act, that no
military officer should be dismissed without a trial' by his
peers, and that the regulations for such trial should not he
contrary to this law. The Noble Marquis had said that the
Gallant Officer had no right to complain, as there were many
instances in which a similar course had been pursued. This
was so nutch the worse, and the sooner such
.a practice was
put an end to the better. His Gallant Friend had been ac-
cused of interfering with the soldiers, but his object was to
put an end to the effusion of human blood. He had asked
whether the House weeld abandonehe people to their fate ?
but it was plain that Sir R. Wilson had interfered- to save
them, and .the-mercy of the Noble Marquis was shewn by
dismissing bins for so d•ting. He had also talked of an un-
doubted prerogative; but the prerogative was not undoubt-
ed, for he could !trove that it was not consistent with the
Mutiny Act, from which he bad already quioted. The Noble
Marquis had sneeringlyasked them, whether they would regu-
late their proceedings by the principles of the Old Bailey?
It was Ilse first time that be had heard a Minister of this
country sidicule the proceedings of our criminal Courts. The
speech of the Noble Martinis accused him of addressing the
people in order to excite them, but his purpose was quite of
atet tier deem iption: He did 'advise them to desist, and nut
to throw stones at the. men on duty. The more the matter
was inquired into the snore it would be found that lie had
done his duty on that day, in a manner in which few could
have performed it. Having been with Sir Robert Wilson at
the time that the firings commenced, and hearing cries of
murder ! he had said to his Gallant Friend—" For sod's
sake, Sir Robert, let its not go on."—(Laughter from the Mi-
nisterial Benchrs.)—lt was not difficult to anticipate what
cheers would follow that declaration in the present spirit of
the House. The Noble Marquis had described the conduct
of the people as being a part of the spirit of faction excited
by the proceedings against the. Queen, If so, he would ask,
who were the persons that bits, awakened this faction? The
Ministers had dune it, by adopting one of the foulest proceed-
ings that ever disgraced Parliament, and ought to be the last
Men to complain of faction. He hoped the time would come
when those Ministers would meet their desert. One of the
good consequences of Parliamentary Reform would be to place
them at the Bar of that House—(laughter;)—Gentlemen
might laugh, but many strange things bad happened before
now in a strange way... The language of Ministers, before Par-
liament had assembled, was,—" Wait until Parliament, sits ;
we have:a ease, and will produce it then." Where was the
case now ? With revect to Manchester they pretended to
have a case; but having seen that all blown .up, they were
afraid to venture nn the production of one in the present in-
stance. If the House of us... Unions refused to afford protec-
tion to art individual under such circumstances as these, it
was high time for the country to open its eyes to its situation.
Nothing could prove more clearly the necessity of Parliamen-
tary Reform than such a refissal.
Mr. TWISS Riittl ed -the House that it was not his inten-
tion to detain them by fullowirig the Hon. Member who:had
jest sat down in that vast variety of topics which he had
drawn into the discussion with such inestimable eloquence.
Nor did hieintend to meddle evith the case itself, because he
felt with the Hon. Member fur Durham (Mr. Lambton), that
in interfering with that, he should depart from the straight
for Ward course of stealing with the question before the House.
The Hon. Members opposite seemed to be all agreed that the
case. was one which ought either to have been sent to a Court
Martial, or have been submitted to that House. It was on
this proposition that he desired to say a few words, with a
view to spew ift what way such a suggestion, coming from his
side of .the House, would have been met by the same Hon.
Meueliees with whom it Originated. If his Majesty's Ministers,
instead of meeting • the: cas.e. manfully as they had done, by
the exercise of that power they, possessed, hail brought for-
ward a proposal thaesuch a matter Afield he referred to the
cognizance of a Court Martial, it would have been said, and
with truth, that they -were afraid to advise the exercise
of the prerogative.--(Hear, hear!)-11 would bare been said,
that they wish, d to take an indirect means of accom-
plishiug their übject without the odium of it; and that fur
this purpose they selected a body so constituted as to he un-
der complete subjection to their will--thus substituting for a
responsible an irresponsible power.—(Hear!)—His Majesty's
Ministers, however, not having done this, time thing was slew
sects in,adiffeirnt light ; seed the. act was arraigned- as uncon-
stitutional, and as depriving the individual of the security of
martial law. He did, not mean. to say-that military Officers
might not be competent to meet a question of this nature;
, but at the seem time it certainly was one,upon which it was
almost impossible for Military Officers in the employment of
the Crowe to be free from bias. It was plain that there must
be meiiy objections to entrusting the important power of dis-
missing Officers from the service to a tribunal, which, though
not free from Ministerial influence, was free from its respon-
sibility. A Minister, however, might be responsible, though
not. accountable. Incases of money, the Minister was both
respOntible for its use, as well as accountable for its ap-
plication; but he was not accountable for the administration
of a prerogative.—(Hear, hear !)
Sir FRANCIS BURDE.TT thought the doctrines laid down
by the Noble Lord so extraordinary, thet he could not help
making a few observations upon them. He thought, unless
the House .were prepared to abandon all rontroul over the
exercise of the prerogative of the • Crown, unless they had
deterroined not to Attend to the just. expectations of the.
people, they could not negative the present tnetion.--(Hear.)
When they beard the Noble Lod, state that the Crown should
possess an uncontrollable power over the army, who, in his
opinion, should •be equally protected' with the rest of the '
community, then, indeed, might they see the danger of stand-
ing armies; for that engine, dangerous at all times, would be
most
.dangerous when under the influence' of Ministerial ca-
price. It was that standing army that enabled the Noble
Lord to insult the country; for -he was surprised to see the
Noble Lord generally jocose on subjects that made every
other man serious and sad, and indulging in unbecoming
mirth,when the heart of every other man was filled with grief.
He thought that the taking away the lives of 'Englishmen
under any circumstances, by an army paid by them to protect•
them against foreign enemies, was calculated to awaken a
feeling of any thing rather than merriment.. But it the
principle of the Noble Lord were to he acted upon, all mili-
tary men should be excluded from that House ;: for no men - -..—
should be allowed to remelt' in the degrading situation to About eleven o'clock on—Priday-eiglila man named-Reeve,
which the doctrine of the Noble Marquis would subject them. who is engineer at Messrs.. Brenchley ay.d Wise's paper-mil:,
The Noble Martinis had quoted an authority, entitled, no in this town, in filling a saucepan from the millehead„ over,,
doubt, to considerable .weight, the opinionof Lord Erskine, reached himself and fell into the water, which at 'this place is
to prove that officers in the army had no redress in Courts of several feet deep; he sunk to the bottom twice, and On
Justice. If that were so,, it stecame more imperiously the his again coming up he caught bold ofpart Oa poplar tree Whiehe..
duty of the House to protect them. Bet that which his Gal- lay floating on the surface of the water ; to this he continued; to
lint Friend wished ,more than any reparation, what indeed cling and call aloud for help. His lamentable cries were heard
his character in the eyes of the country rendered unneces. eomedistance Gm and a party of gentlemen who were spending
nary was, that no man should say that on that day he did that I the evening at a friend's house in King-street, qn hearing the
which did nut. become a gallant officer nod :an honest Esige. same, hastenedwith the greatestalacritytothespot,anit fortunate-
'
lishman.—(Cheers.)—And was it to be borne that a character ly arrived in time to save the poor fellow, who, e,:braus,ted with.
the most unblemished, a life without a stain, should. be thus straggling and hallooing,. had just committed Iris soul to God,
subject to suspicion ? It was unnecessary to the character of and was about to sink to rise tiO na-i.e. What the, old man,
his Hop., Friend to seek for. istqwier, he had abundance of who is. 67 years of age, Was taken out he was s 4 beniimbed,
..
proof in the opinions of the entire nation'— having
,been in the water upwards of. ten minutes:, . that he :
" Utdis in re non (Whist testis est; nun necessarius." had almost entirely lost the use of his limbs.. In this • state he
;:...
—(Hear, hear !)—When the mutiny act was again before the was. conveyed home, and medical assistance procured,. -but •
House he should submit a preposition to remove officers in nearly• two hours elapsed before the blood could be. gg,t ,
the army from the degrading situation in which Noble. itito circulation and he was thought Out of danger.'' He Is now,
of
Lord. would place them. The exerciseprerogative in this we are'happy to state, in a fair way of recovery.s(Maidstone
case was the roost extraordinary that ever was beard uf. The Journal; Feb. 12.)

•
King of Prussia could not dismiss an officer without a, court,
martial, and Buonitparte, when he was master of 1131(s:1'4.P:if,
ropean could not exercise sit odjonior delestaWa •
power as that which the Ministers esf'England exervseci
'to the'petsotr of the Sovereign. But the whole political IVe•
of the Nitble Lord was identifi.al with innovations on the
Constitution. After having destroyed the liberties ulltis,
coo Ntry, Le was trying his hand upon this, and would
'eventually succeed, backed by corrupt majorities in jhat ,
House, unless a timely, check were put to las 'prcieettal-;
ings, The' Noble Lord had alluded to martial kW, and
thought fit to charge Gentlemen on that side of the House
with a wish to support it ; but it was not martial law they.,
hiked fcir to preserve Ireland, it was
,a strang military free.„
instead of that InsUrrectinn-Act, or rather the Curfew-Acts
which, in conjunction with the other odious measure. /de-
stroyed the lifkrtiei of that unfortunate country. He ,
called for a military force, and he would intrust it, not .1,1
the Noble Lord, but 10 the Noble Marquis, who was a true
friend to Ireland. He had an opportunity, when in Ireland.
to visit the estate of the Noble Marquis, and although that
estate had now gone out of the family, the poor peoplo
Were filled with the most endearing recollections of that
NoblelMarquis,:and that was in perfect accordance with the
whole course of his political life. And,, for these ,re.usittoiss'
lie would the rather intrust the Noble Marquis with these eta
traordinary military powers. With respect to the questiori
before the House, it was bnpussible7for any man that slid not
place, blind confidence in Ministers to reject the motion.—
But, if they valued elseir character with the country, and if
that House was to he any thing more than a mere registris estthe
rates of the Minister, or a machine for extracting motley
from the pockets of the people, they would support theitair
and just proposition of Isis Gallant Friend. •
Sir ROBERT WILSON shortly replied. With regard to
what had fallen front the Noble Lord opposite (Loril,Pa tue,r7, •
stone) be must say, that he klt convinced he had pastroted :
a toile upon this occasiiin which was the reverse of hi:s•
vale sentiments. The Noble Marquis had fallen• -
error in sapposing that he bad declared That rat stones,Were
thrown front the people. But few were thrown after he came
tip ; hot he did not mean to say that the 'soldiers had it 's
bleu
previously assailed. He had also stated, as. a matter of
charge thirt be wore a star on his Irreast mr.tbat
day. Ile had done so, as a mark of reapect,graieful Otro,
feelings, because it' was a star worn by t) )father sad 'Aro; .•.
titer of her late Majesty, who lad exeressed herself titestsed•
with his attention in weariOg' it in, her pre vas e. Hr mats; •
a'rald the decision of the House would not be in tayouraitAria.
mot•oh, but be would call their attention to the facts charged
against him. Vrst, he had removed a waggon at Kensiaglon.
In doing so he hail 'assisted the kihg's soldiers,. to. whom it,
belongs:it. Secoadlv, he had interfered with the' military aL
Cumberland Gate. He did so to check them from doing what.
they were 'riot authorised by civil authority in doing, aod,as-
such acted as their best friend. However the matter might
end that night, he should not cease his efforts to obtain re- -
dress, and he would coniine. t.e siigina'ise those who shoold.
continue to withhold it as lawless and vindictive oppressui
(Cries of " Giuestion.")
Mr. BUM fGHAM said, that as far As his testimony could
he of use to his gallant lit iend, he was willing to state that
what fell under his observ.,tion aurplv.eliofirmed the state- •
meat he bad made to the House. He had passed through
Kensington on his way to Braiidenlairgh Ilito.S;!, an. hour.
after the Gallant General, and lie showd .peaknositivelY:to
the fact, that there was riot then the slightest appearinice.of •
preparation to obstruct the passage in that pal t which in the ,
course of that morning became a scene of much confusion. •
Dr. LUSHINGTON cuiroborated the statement whiell'his •
gallant Friend had made. He hail endeavooreil to dicini rte . •
him from going iota the crowd at Cumber latid•gate, lint he
said he thought the soldiers were in disorder, and he would
try what he could do to restore matters. Ile was perfectli
cool and collected during the whole time. •
Mr. ELLfSE, having been appealed to, alto rose-us corro- .
borate the statement Of the Gallant Mover, made with regard .
to hitu. He had never quitted him but fora short period at ....
Canterbury, till five ()clock the night preceding it,e 14tIa. •
August, so that lie had no time for concerting platys.
Colonel CAVENDISH 'said, that the
,Ilonourahle Mem-
her for Ditrhaut (Mr. Lambton) having.,•in the con Fat' of the
debate, called the regbuent whidi he had the honour to coin. :
mand by the name of Murderers, he rose to express his.srtr•: •
prise that any Honourable Member could be found to ~,aka •
use of such language on such an occasion.—jiear, bear,),
He did not think they deierced it, especially:4s.,
theprily foams
dation the Hon. Member could have for i was the evidence
of a set of individuals who were ready to perjure themset vet
by swearing to any individual that might he pointed out us
From the .fay in irhirlr
th('
the matter, he
, i
alluded to upon the foundation of a Coroner's ver&ct,
the fact that two men had been killed ; sit wiles, the io..b
(iu;:,,Y;iis.u.c d
.
Mr. LAMBToN he lead in,d, the ,issertion
connected
with
fired at themselves, the soldiers most have keeled them.
that expla"nation, Ire must say that he still stood to the 'state,
went Ile had made.

Lord UXBRIDGE begged to corroborate the statement of.
the Hon. and Gallant Member oppositelime: Cnvendi•h„,
as to the evidence at the Coroner's Inquest. That evidcoc.,
was not to be helieved.—(Hear, bear! from the Opposition
The reason why he stated that was, because he Lnew that
there were a number of persons ready to go.nw iu.l body avti
swear that he (Lord Uxbridge) was the intlivi,nl that shot
one of the men, he being: %t the time in question 2!.,0 miles
from the city of London.-- (Cheets from the nttist,ri;r:
benches.)
After a few words front I % ..r. -ALrEHT, the House dividt
For the motion
Against it ,.... 199
Majority -102
The House then adjourned at fhill-past Eleven.