The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-13 00:00:00

a oust of their population n 1821, and the B;11 having
h•en.read a second ti;ne, v hat remains is to ascertain
whether the boroughs had or had not the populaton which
justifies their insertion in Schedule A or Schedule B.
Counsel can be of no earthly use to guide the House as-to
that simple fact. A man who is obliged to attend a
meeting on a certain hour of a certain day, may as well
employ Counsel to obtain information when the clock
strikes which is to regulate his movements. But then, if
Counsel are to be first heard in the case °rivet), borough,
the Fill cannot pass, and it would be a masterly stroke of
poliCy to reduce Parliament to an impossibility if pro-
ceeding, through an absurd application of its own ferns.
" If," said Mr. D. W. II urvey, " they allowed Counsel
to be heard for Appleby, they must allow it for every
other borough; then there would he 150 boroughs,
etch to be heard by Counsel ; and suppose the Counsel
were to be contented each with one day, there would
b • 150 days before the House could go into a Commit-
tee."—(Hear, and a laugh.) Let us hear the Leader cf
the Opposition on this point. " The p tition (sail Sir
Robert Peel) recognized the principle of the Reform Bill;
but it urged, that admitting that the principle was correct,
they could show that it did not aim!), to them.—(Cheers.)
And would any majority of that House, however powerful
it might be, refuse these p aties an opportunity of showing
this ?—(Cheers.) Su h a thing could not be proved
without details ; it mu•t be made out by evidence; and
the alleg assns of Members interesteA in the fact could not
he received in such a case. He, therefore, concluded, that
if the House of Commons refused the petitioners this op-
portunity, it would be establishing a precedent most din
gerous.''—(Cheers.) So, in order not to establish a dan-
gerous precedent, Parliament must stultify itself by pro-
ceeding according to a coure which admits of no termi-
nation ! The information respecting the state of the po-
pulation of each of these boroughs, must, forsooth, be ob-
tained only through the prosy statements of Counsel, feed
to speak against time in each particular case ! Among
:he 658 Members of the House of Commons. no one can
be trusted with the conveyance of the particulars respect-
ine the population and the evidence for them.
" But, then (says Mr. Charles Wynne, the oracle in all ques-
tions of form), admitting the principles of disfraichisement, as
laid down by the Government, was it not better to allow each
borough which chose the opportunity of disproving that it came
within that principle ?—(Cheers.) Would the majority stop all
inquiries ? Would they say at once that they were prepared to
give their votes to the propositions of the King's Ministers.—
What would be said if a Jury were to act so ?—(Cheers.) Here
there were forty-seven boroughs arraigned before them, and
there was a call for a verdict without the Jury being allowed to
hear the evidence, though they knew not how the evidence ap-
plied—though it was offered to be shown of some of these bo-
roughs that they were not guilty. No ; they were told that they
must give a general verdict, and must not examine the evidence
of each particular case.—(Cheers.) They were to disfranchise
forty-seven boroughs—they were to pass sentence, taking no time
for consideration, not allowing them to be heard in their own
defence, and not even asking them why sentence of death should
not be passed on them --Cheers.) Once grant the principle
contended for by his Hon. 1- rend the Attorney-General, and let
the House see the great injustice to which it would lead."
Now all this proceeds on the confounding legislative
with judicial functions. The House are not trying parti-
cular boroughs for delinquency, but withdrawing a trust
from a certain portion of the population, to bestow it in a
manner more in accordance with the principles of the
Constitution. In order not to proceed arbitrarily in with-
drawing the trust, Patliament laid down a principle, that
all boroughs under a certain population should be placed
in Schedule A, and another amount of population in Sche-
dule 13; but it could not be supposed to contemplate the
receiving information as to these facts only in such a man-
ner as should place it on an impossibility of arriving at
any conclusion. If Parliament were a trihunal trying a
particular Corporation, it might tie itself down to a judi-
cial mode of proceeding; but what Parliament requires
is information sufficient to enlighten itself.-' If in legislat-
ing, Parliament were to receive the information on which
it decides solely through the Counsel, and the production of
witnesses at the bar, such a question, for instance,
as that of the new duty on wines, could not be determined
without the aid of Counsel, and the production of wit-
nesses to prove all the points respecting the Treaty of
Methuen, the existing rates of dirty on Portuguese and
other wines, and all other matters which came under dis-
cussion on Monday night. On that occasion the House
agreed to a certain resolution, relying on the statement of
Ministers and other Members, and in all other public
matters the statements of Members form the grounds on
which alone Parliament decide, other information, when
necessary, being of course called for. The a•nount of
population in the case of the boroughs was fixed, not for
the sake of the particular boroughs, which have no right
to what they merely discharge as a trust, but for the
sake of Parliament itself, which must be supposed to
adopt the mode of enlightening its own conscience
mast consonant with common sense. But really we are now
bestowing more attention on this piece of chicanery
than it deserves. But on this the opponents of Reform
place all their hopes. As if, forsooth, forms which are
laid down for general convenience were to he adhered to
at the expence of what is essential ! As if representa-
tives, deputed by the people expressly to carry a certain
measure, were to stand still, and allow the enemies of that
measure to tie them down to certain forms by which that
I measure could never be carried! Parliament never heal-
tates to depart from every form when the observance of it
would produce more evil than good. Bills are hurried
through all their stages in one day. Individuals are for a
time deprived of their liberties without trial, by the suspen-
sion of laws, for the sake of the general convenience. But
in this particular case Parliament are departing from no
form ; but rejecting the application of a form, which is in
every respect unsuitable to it. The amendment was very
properly rejected. On a division the numbers were 284
to 187, leaving a majority of 97, The minority, of course,
included all the false friends of Reform, who agreed to
the second reading, in the hope of being able to cripple
the measure in some subsequent stage. It included, of
course, Mr. C. Wynne. It included also, we are sorry to say,
one of the Members of the city of London, Mr. Alderman
Thompson, who knew a great deal about Appleby, he said
(we should say a great deal too much), and who affected
not to be able to distinguish between the establishment of
a fact in a manner satisfactory to the House, and the esta-
blishment of a fact by a process which, if adopted in every
case, would render it impossible ever to get through the
Bill. Let these real enemies, though pretended friends of
the Bill, be marked by the public with their strongest dis-
approbation. We trust the race of Alderman Ttiompsons
will yet be taught a wholesome lesson by the public. After
the failure of the attempt of Lord Maitland, the motion
for going into a Committee was laid hold of fur a discus-
sion of the principle of the Bill. Mr. Conolly repeated
all the common places about spoliation; Mr. Attwood
entered on the old affair of the Bourbons, the Revolution
of July, the Sovereignty of the People, the rumoured cre-
ation of Peers ; and then, when it seemed meet, Captain
Gordon moved an adjournment of the debate. Lord
Althnrp appealed to the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Sir Robert Peel) whether he haul not agreed, that one
full discussion on the principle of the Bill would be suf-
ficient? Sir Robert was ashamed of the crew with which
he is compelled to act ; and remarked, that Members were
indeed at liberty to speak at large on the principle; but,
as it was only twelve o'clock, . the debate might be con-
tinued yet for some time, and "lie for one would be no party
to any thing like vexatious delay.", However Captain Gor-
don persisted in his motion of adjournment of the debate,
and the House divided, giving a majority to Ministers of
328 to 102, or 226. It is clear that there is a desperate
spirit in the Opposition determined to push matters to the
last extremity. Against this spirit Ministers must act
with cool but determined resolution. They have the
country with them. The clamour of the Opposition finds
no echo out of doors. The Ministers have a strong ma-
jority within, and the whole nation without, on their side,
and they may fearlessly shape their resolves accordingly.
The Opposition had lull scope last night. By dint of
talking on all subjects, and dividing from time to time,
they succeeded in killing the hours, till at last it could no
longer be said that there was time for continuing the de-
bate. —Morning Chronicle.

After a trifling and insignificant discussion last night,
on a propt r provision for the Queen—an 100,0001. per
annum was proposed—a most factious opposition was got
up by the Peel and Dawson party, on the question, whe-
ther the case of the borough of Appleby ought or ought
not to be heard by the Counsel at the bar of the House.—
To the hearing of any case in such manner, in favour of
which strong evidence might be adduced, his Majesty's
Ministers could of course have no reasonable objection;
but in that of the borough of Appleby, it was evident to
every one that the Opposition only sought to establish a
Principle by means of wkish they might render it neces-
sary, on the part of the House, to hear Counsel in every
case of disfranchisement, and thus, by uselessly consuming
its time, to impede the progress of a Bill whose import-
ance exceeds that of all others ever introduced into the
House of Commons. His Majesty's Ministers, in conse-
quence, opposed the hearing of Counsel, and, notwith-
standing the pert remarks of Sir R. Peel, and the more
able corporeal movements of Sir C. Wetherell, the House
approved of the course pursued by his Majesty's Minis-
ters, and testified its approbation by a majority of no fewer
than 97 in their favour. On the division the numbers were,
For Ministers
Against them

Majority
From this petty skirmish it is quite evident that the
Anti-Reformers are determined to fight out the battle of
corruption or no corruption, tooth aad nail, and that they