The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-19 00:00:00

NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES.

Mr. E. ,STRUTT presented a petition from Derby, very'
numerously signed, in favour of the abolition of the Stamp
Eitita . fie t}mi2f7,ht that the continuance
or those duties was inconstl!tfi 11.):;e nripelples•profess( d
by his Majesty's Government. The lion. pre-:
E,ritcd a petition from the Independent Dissenters of DerLY,
prdylng. to be relieved from the grievances they were subject
to at ptegeni.-.
RkCOGNIZANGES..—(IIMLAND.)
Sir E: COOPER moved for Returns from the Clfrks of
the4Pease in Ireland for the anintint of estreated recomnitances
in tretalld [luring the years 1833 and and the sums of,
money paid in respect of 16 same.
POOR LAW BILL:

Sir 1 VERNEY presented a petition from Bucking t*
praying the ilotis tH F:7P tend the time for the painent.9fAvply
spent in building workhousdg, Mider the provisions.9t-Tifeii.kiti
Poor Law Act, from ten to twenty 3 eafg4
PUBLIC WORKS—IRELAN-o.—.

Mr: COOPER. asked whether it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government to increase the sum granted for tke
-Boapti a- Public Works in 'lreland.
-'rho CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
leave in reply to the question, to give notice of his intention to
bring iti a Dill on the subject.
TITHES---LIRELAND.

Lord )10 Upg 71.1. j. gave notice that on the 25th of March
he slicvq rit,,ve that that p-af! of his Majesty's Speechrela-
ting to the sctildfirt t)f the Tithe I,_:stion in Ireland should
be read and taken into con4tii3rotin by the ;Luse*.
• . • CONSTABULARY BILL—,:SRKLANI).

Lord MORPETH—Sir, I do not thin!! it necessa;v
to trouble the House at any great length upon the aubjeCt
which I shall now propose for their consideration, because the
Bill which I shall introduce differs but little from that which I
brought forward last Session, and which passed this House
without a division, and I might say almost with the unanimous
consent of every Member, Besides, there will be ample time
for the consideration of the details. Why that measure did not
pass the other branch of the Legislature, I have not been able
to ascertain ; its leading features were merely derived from the
provisions of Bills introduced by members of former Adminis-
tfations, nor will it answer any good purpose now to inquire
into the nititiices by which the other House of Parliament was
actuated, in refusing iti pass the measure. But among ether
reasons, the late period of did acisaion was urged, and I now,
by bringiug- it again forward thus early, nlsh to obviate that
objection. I hope it will meet with the
.approliation of all
classes ; for I can say that it has no party tendency; and I
trust it will therefcre go forward under happier auspices than
before. The Bill which I purpose to introduce differs only
from that of last year, that it repeals the-laws by which the
constabulary and present peace establishment arc formed,
and this not with a view of suppressing these bodies
which, with a .few drawbacks, have been found to work well for
the country, but in order that a sufficient force should be esta-
blished under one improved and general system. We have
provided for the continuance of the present force until the new
one is organized. The Dill will enable the Lord Lieutenant,
instead of four Irspectora.General who now have the chief
regulation of the police force in the four provinces—
it will enable him to appoint an Inspee!or-General to provide
for the regulation and general management or !he police force,
and under him there are to be tWe DepUty luspertors. It
vests in the Inspector-General, subject to the approbation of
the Lord Lieutenant, the power of making rules and regu-
lations for the government of the police force. Without
entering into the minutiae of existing statutes, these will be
regulations better adapted to the present time.—( Hear,
hear.) It enables the Lord Lieutenant to appoint county
inspectors, and under them sub-inspectors, as well as a per-
son to act as paymaster, storekeeper, and in the three largest
counties—Cork, Galway, and Tipperary—two of these offi-
cers. It places the appointment of police constables, whether
chief or sub-constables, in the hands of the Government; and
this is the most.material alteration in the Dill, transferring
that power from the lqcal magistracy to the government.
It is a every material one, but I humbly subunit that
it is a very important and judicious one.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bill proposes that the Lord Lieutenant shall have the

power to -augment the police force according to the necessity
of the case. This will supersede all the cumbrous machinery
which is now obliged to be resorted to whenever a district was
to be proclaimed, and will enable him in like manner to dimi-
nish the number cf the police force with a corresponding ra-
pidity. With respect to the transferring the appointment of
the police force from the local magistracy to the general Go-
vernment, that appointment will be nominal, inasmuch as the
Inspector-General will have the actual appointment. I con-
tend, that such an officer as the Inspector-General will be able
to exercise a much more careful and much more unbiassed
choice, than could be expected from such a numerous body as
the Local Magistracy. Without imputing any improper mo-
tives to that body, or without ascribing to them any other po-
litical feelings than would exist in any equally numerous
body of the same station in society, the Inspec-
tor-General will, I apprehend, Sir, be influenced by
motives much more unbiassed, his only object being to make
his force as.. efficient as possible. As a proof that the pre-
sent system of appointment is not the most adviseable,
I have known many instances of magistrates having
voluntarily divested themselves of that power of appointment,
and giving it to the Government, and I believe it has been
found that they have not repented parting with that power. I
heard only two days ago that five men who had been recently
recommended to the Police force, had distinctly admitted
themselves that they did belong to a secret political society ;
and I find within the last three months, in the four provinces of
Ireland, there have been dismissed constables and sub-constables
upon that single ground, in the province of Ulster 16, in the
province of Leinster al, in the province of Munster 30, and
in the province of Connaught 19 ; so that in the whole of Ire-
land within this short period 96 constables and sub-constables
have been dismissed for belonging to secret societies..,
This measure, I trust, will prevent such a disgrace from
_again resulting to the public service. It is proposed to estab.
lish a supernumerary reserved corps, who should be called in
on special occasions to the assistance of the permanent force.
The Bill will impose- upon the whole force the usual oath
prescribed by the Coustabulary Act, with this addition,
that they are not members of any secret or political so-
ciety.—( Hear, hear.) It will empower magistrates to fine
constables in a penalty of 51. who may be guilty of a neglect
of duty. It will render necessary the meeting of the super-
numerary corps at certain periods for inspection, in order that
they may. be instructed in their duties ; and it is proposed to
make all the appointments for the permanent force from this
body. The Lord Lieutenant is'to be empowered to remove the
force from one county to another. He will have also the power
of appointing stipendiary magistrates, a class of men who have
been found extremely useful in preserving the public peace
and administering public justice.. With respect to the sala-
ries of these officers, it is proposed that that shall be left to
the decision of the Committee. By another provision of the
Bill, 2/. 10s. per cent. is to be deducted from the sala-
ries of the force to be applied to a superannuation
fund ; and also a sum of 10s. per cent, to be
applied to the police reward fund.—( Hear, hear.) The object
of this fund is to reward those whose conduct would entitle
them to particular distinction. These are the main features
of the Bill- I have the honour to submit, and I confidently
hope that it will be found an improvement upon the ex-
isting system ; that it will render the constabulary force
more effective ; and that it will tend to the preservation
of the public peace, I therefore, Sir, beg to move for leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the constabulary force in Ireland.
Colonel CONNOLLY did not rise to object to
the measure, but he thought there were some parts
which at their first sound would necessarily excite the
apprehension of the magistracy of Ireland, considering
the course which his Majesty's Government had chosen
to adopt in Ireland, where they bad made the execu-
tive government, he might almost say, subservient to the sys-
tem of agitation that had prevailed in that country for many
years. Though he himself did not look upon it with appre-
hension, he could not look upon it otherwise than with dis-
trust, seeing that a large and respectable body, with whom
no fault had been found for a series of years, who were
now maturing in their organization, and improving in their
general knowledge of their country, were now to be
dispersed and removed, and a totally new system
adopted without any grounds having been stated.
The Noble Lord had terminated his speech by saying, that he
hoped the system would be economical—if it were economical,
that would not justify such a great change : but he (Col. C.)
apprehended the result would be other than economical.

IK did object on Constitutional grounds to making that great
force which ought to be amenable to the magistracy of
the country altogether independent of them. He bad been
a magistrate for many years, and he thought that cotuse
had been adopted in Ireland too much already, because the
placing of that body on a footing independent -of the magis-
tracy could not fail to be pernicious to the magistracy and in-
jurious to the community. He thought there were various parts
of the enactment objectionable.. He should watch with great
jealousy the diversion of that power from the hands of those
in whom he thought it ought to be legitimately placed, and
placing it in the hands of those from whom they had the worst
consequences to apprehend. He, however, agreed to the su-
perannuation, as he thought that was nothing but fair.
Mr. LUCAS thought there was sufficient power already in
the bands of the Lord Lieutenant. The magistrates of his
own county had bad two meetings on that subject, and he
knew that he was speaking the sentiments of most of the resi-
dent gentry and landlords of the county, when he said that
the magistracy was the constitutional body to appoint.
The police force were paid partly out of the general fund, but
also partly out of the funds raised from the estates of the gentry,
and be thought they were the proper parties in whose hands their
appointment ought to rest. There was this recommendation
also, the local magistracy were all resident ; and, of course,
being acquainted with the parties, were the proper persons
in whose hands the appointment ought to rest.—( Hear. )
He must protest against the appointment of constables being
taken from the resident local magistracy and landlords, to be
put into the hands of the military power. He Was old fa-
shioned enough to think that the magistrates were the more
constitutional authorities--( Cheers). The gentry of Ireland had
indeed fallen low when they were not thought worthy of hold-
ing such a power by that House or by the Government.
He protested against such a doctrine, in the name of the
magistracy and of the gentry of Ireland, and on behalf of
the whole empire, for he was sure they were not inferior
to the gentry of England, or any country in Europe.—
(" Hear" and cheers.) Though he did not agree with
the Government in politics, still he opposed this measure
upon other grounds. He could not for one consent that the force
upon which depended the tranquillity of Ireland, should be
hung and dangled round the neck of any Secretary for Ire..
land.—( Cheers. )
Lord CLEMENTS wished to say a few words in answer

to Ivhat had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who had nov,-
sat down. The Honourable Gentleman had designated
the gentry of Ireland as an unfortunate race, and said

th6.Goverarnenf stenteal to take from them the remains.,°oll
t! once great power. Ile denied that the taking fii'de
ti en of thia !sower of nominating constables, would slegr's,.l
them in any WRY. Iri the province in which he (Lord
retailed, the Magistracy lipid already given up this Penes,
of appointment into the hands of Major Warble_
end iltey fladssever found that they had been in any wsY ber
graded, nof tide flits Itrid fault with the appointments madetcli
Prim.—( Hear, heat', hew.) He was informed that ,ss',o
had been done also in Monster, and the plan had l'es-„0
found to answer very well.—(Hear.) This being the c,1,11
the display of the lion. Gentleman opposite was quite unca"'"
for. How stood the case in this city ? Did they find the °Pi
pointmcnt of the police in the hands of the Magistrates
t 0
Bow-street ? No—the power was lodged where it otight
be—in the hands of those who governed and commanded the%
He had never heard that Major 'Warburton had refu.shei
to take into consideration the recommendation of, no
local magistracy, and the Gentlemen opposite had
right to suppose that their representations would be unatte_
ded to. He (Lord Clements) thought it was a calmly'',
upon the Irish Government to say that they wished to disr,eo
gard the gentlemen of Ireland; and he believed the opposi_irti%
to the measure was the; effect of a party policy, and of
tactic.
Sir ROBERT BATE SON, as an Irish gentleman, Wilda
not sit still when he heard the Irish magistrates comPtt,roes,
to those of Bow-street.—Hear, hear.) Nor could he a"sos
the assertion of the Noble Lord to go us:contradicted'
the opposition to the measure was the result of party ne:old
or feeling.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In the very calm nand
s
sensible speech of the Member for Monaghan, there Tian —sad
syllable that could be construed into party spirit; .rid
lid (Sir Robert Bateson) agreed with him, that it irr'o,s
be impolitic to place in the hands of the present, or ad
other Government, the power proposed by the I 3
n'
did not wish to see the Constabulary force r°"o,
vertcd into a sort of gcns d'armerie, without any cent
troul on the part of the local magistracy. The Prose,
Government were doing everything they could to take ,
geoi
control of the police out of the hands of the resident
He did not wish to place that power in any chief .constable
tn
inspector-4 Hear)—whether appointed by the present or Inais
other Government. They had heard one of them declare tnst
lie knew of no party but one—the Orange party—although e 0
the time he was surrounded by Ribbon Associations, and othet,
of an illegal nature. Either he was so blinded or so iglinrars,ll
that he was unable to distinguish the fact. It should be
colleted, that the one-half of the expense was at Poi
sent borne by the country; and if the local magistra.„;
were deprived of all control, it was but fair that the en to
should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. As bg
the benefit of sLioendiary magistrates he thoquo
they were of no lien; fit at all in his part of we,
country. He told the House that it was the object of the Prhe
sent Government to make the police a party force, and fie
should state a circumstance in proof of his assertion. La
complained of a sub-constable to his officer, and rettni`;
that She should be reported to the Inspector of the provild
The officer said he was a man of bad character ; that he co.
not be trusted, and that he was a Roman Catholic ; sheis
as he (the officer) could not well afford to in!e ob,
place, he could not report him as desired.—( Cries Of be
oh," and " Name, name.") He stated it as a fact, ?in' of
would not give the. Gentlemen opposite the gratification
.
naming the individual of whom he spoke.—('" Oh, ou't
After that specimen of the impartiality of the Govern
he was not to be wondered at as objecting to giving fart.."-a
power to the persons who ruled the Government in irel—
or in that House.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Honourable Gentleill
had taken leave to give the name of Sir Frederica
Storen, but with his usual, impartiality he refusb,
to give that of the officer with whom
(Sir R. Bateson) was in communication. He gave the nswtt,
of the accused, but not of the accuser. He took care
mention the name of the accused, but he carefully collect. it
the name of the accuser. Now, if this story was true--3`bis
was not a perfect delusion on the part of the Honoursra
Gentleman—ought he to be permitted to retain office ,d
a single hour ?—( Hear, hear.) The Government is assaiile
because it is the first Government that ever did justice to :elei;
land.—(Cileers.) I don't know whether this measure will sa
served by my support.—(Hear, and a laugh.) Peebaror
it would be more prudent for me to be silent; 40
to take my seat on the other side of the House. In 'el
county Kerry the Magistrates had voluntarily surrender ,
°0
.
into the hands of Mayor Miller else power of appointing pets
to the police force for Clare, sand some other countal,
in Ireland had done the same thing, end the greatest adsro4
,
tages were found to result from it.—( Bear.) In the r(
place it did away with much village favouritism, and eye 01
other species of improper influence, in the seleeticros
constables. In the North, however, the magistrates hou
adopted this course, and hence the Government found it
cessary to take the matter into its own hands. In °nestle
country as Ireland you ought never to leave power OO.
hands of irresponsible persons. If you do, every it con'
sequence must inevitably result from it and cheesno
At New Ross two policemen had been lately dismissed. °
of them in a public- house had said before a crowd of perso.;
" now for a bumper," and having filled a large glass, he €3ll,
as a toast, " The pope in the pillory—the pillory in be )
and the devil pelting him with popish priests."—(Laughte%
Another gave as a toast, " May the ears of all the papists„.o
the parish be nailed to the chapel doors"—(mentioning ht;
in the parish)—" and the chapel transplanted int° --ibut
(Another laugh.) These men were dismissed', hOl
what remedy had the public against the Magistrates by 01"-°„t,
they were appointed ? lithe appointment lay in the Governnit%
the moment such a charge was brought against them, the Ceti.;
sure of the House would ilave fallen on the Lord Lieutenants,,
whom the appointment had been made. It had not been A'o,
serted that any of the magistrates of Ireland were Ribbo 0
men, but he would be glad to knov7 how many of them Wet
Orangemen ?—(Hear.) Was it not a fact that the Print;
cipal functionaries of the Orange Lodges in 'lreland Issess
supplied from the magistracy ? Would it be contended tut°
the Grand Orange Lodge was the fittest body in which be
i vest the appointment of the police ? If the power was int.ts
hands of the Government, there would be a responsibllbio
which at present was not the case. He was glad that the
question had been taken up by the present Government, wb.ss
was the only one that had ever shown a disposition to do Jug'
tice or act fairly towards Ireland.—( Cheers.)
Mr. F. SHAW would not enter upon the general defe,nbc:
of the Magistrates of Ireland on the present occasion, Ansi° 0,
should presume that there were some observations of the Prlob
and Learned Member opposite (Mr. O'Connell) with 101101
he in a great measure agreed, while with some for
those put forward by the Honourable Member )
Monaglian he was rather inclined to differ.—(Hear'
He was disposed to agree with the Hon. and Lem ned Gently"
man opposite, that it was not altogether wise to place Poll )
in the hands of an irresponsible body.—(Hear, bear, bead
But he could not agree with the observation of the Hon. 814
Learned Gentleman that the Member for Derry had brong
forward a charge upon an anonymous authority-01°o
His Hon. and Learned Friend had done no such thiM
because he had given his own authority ; he had stated PI
A. G. had made a communication to him personally, and be
stated that upon his own authority. He (Mr. S. ) agreed to tit'
part of the plan of the Noble Lord, which Prie;
eluded all persons from belonging to the force
were connected with secret societies ; but althoubj",
that system might be adopted in form, yet he ss„
convinced the appointments would be made for political Ft°
poses. He was one of these who had never objected to 'tu
appointment of a Roman Catholic to an office merely Ili
cause he was a Roman Catholic, but he conside,..o
that the -appointment should not be made, on account of Pio
being a Roman Catholic.—(Hear, hear, lions all sides of the
House.) He did not mean to give offence to any body, but ,
could not help observing a circumstance whicft bad tecenti
taken place in Ireland—namely, that there had been appoint%
34 new officers solicitors, for prosecuting at the quarter sessifils
in Ireland; out of those 34, thirty were Roman Calliol;
Looking to the state of society in Ireland, and consisierill
that individuals in that profession were generally well educate
he would ask whether that could have been a fair selection ? _
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to say a few words on tier
subjects and in doing so he would take care to steer clear• t:"
all difference between each party. He conceived the reasonin's!
on which the Bill was founded was the inconvenience attendant 01;
the organization of a constabulary force in Ireland. The force a'
it at present existed was under four different Inspectors-Gene'
ral; all four- being independent of each other; therefore'
adopting, as they thought proper, quite different sr'
toms, each of them, however, corresponding with their 00
sub-inspectors and constables. By these means, and the want
of uniformity in the whole system, there was a g,eat accumni;
lation of business at the seat of the Goveri2rnent
Ireland, which ought properly .to be accomplished hY.,hlO
se
police. Another objection was, that part of the Nl-
was appointed by the Inspector, and another part by the
gistrates. The object of the Bill was to place in one InsPes"o
tor-General the direction of the whole force ; that' Piz
may organize it into one system, and that he t
make Leinster and Connaught act under the same rules;
There had been some insinuations thrown out against
most distinguished officer, a man of high military rei
potation. ( Hear, hear, hear ) He did 11(1,
believe that any person could say with truth any thiiri,
whatever against that worthy Officer, and he was extremely
sorry that any had been thrown out.--( Hear.) W„ls'i,
respect to the force to be placed under an Inspector-Gene'iiis
Government had been anxious to choose a man unconnected Is: 0
any party. For this purpose he had been in communicsit,Jed
Bill,
th
eps rrpt
zal
with a gentleman who had been most efficient in preservte,'
im
the peace of this country—he meant Colonel Shaw ge„l'il
nedy. He had asked him whether he would take the comillni,
of theo
tpolicfo disinclinedrc e into
alrgerleaerllv,
iathndthweasprvoepr)o'sgalla. ht. f
hweaasrn.) Therefore if they were enabled—d
tt(oollfienpadars:sha:b:::
oteßyn
AeaflnoTdr eEKee
doubt but that he would discharge his duty with the titnitil-
tion to all parties.—( Hear, hear. )
sxe naioncntNerditellyesasxt:p, wouldso un country, andt e personthere
couldto
be organ
n,,,,ssoet
explained.
Sir the same time give oasis
Sir R. PEEL rose chiefly for the purpose of confirillig
the testimony of the Noble Lord opposite ( Lord John Russetl'r
as to the high character of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, an dlicel
in every respect distinguished for his gallantry.
Co lonize
Shaw Kennedy had been the first person to whom he Sir
Peel applied when the Metropolitan Police Bill was nhof
to be brought into operation, and his regret was only rn'.;
tigated when that Gallant Officer declined the appointtrq
he wished him to accept by the office having been so ader:iii;
rably filled subsequently by Colonel Rowan, assisted by a,
able coadjutor, Mr. Mayne. He had, therefore, great
ture in healing that Colonel Shaw Kennedy was to be offereid
the appointment. Re hoped his Majesty's Government %NG° s
make it part of his duty to recommend, as he ought to reel°
mend, all officers who were to serve under him, so that t

lief officer min ht be held responsible for all appointments.
The appoiritmein to the police force he tonsidered before ail
others ought to be free from all party animosity.—(Che.,rs
from both sides of the House.) He thought that tht Datro-
tag° which might accrue from this Bill ?ought to be, more
than any other, particularly as the moth" was in a perpetual
state of political strife, removed from the undue influontt of the Ministers of the Crown. The same oty-srem that
prevailed in the metropolis should be adopted ; the Go-
vernment should appoint the Inspector, and the Inspector
Should appoint the officers, se that no opportunity siteuld be
afforded for the unfair exercise of patreange.—( Hear. )
Heivas not unfriendly to the principle of the Bill, always sup-
Posing that the principal power, namely, that of appointing
the chief officer, which would be transferred to the Lord
Lieutenant, would not be abused. But something arose out
of the principles of this Bill of a nature more important than
at first appeared, and which might be well applied to matters
independent of that Bill. It was admitted that this Bill was
necessary for Ireland, and it was intended that it should com-
prise the entire country. In England it was ilifferent. There
was a Metropolitan Police Bill in England on the same prin-
ciple as the proposed Constabulary I;orce Bill in Ireland, but
in the one case it was limited to the metropolis, and in the
other extended all over the country. The different circum-
stances of the country he was well aware demanded this. But
suppose that in the Speech from the Throne his Majesty had
recommended th.e attention of Parliament to the administration
th
°1 Justice in Ireland, and they had been advised to organise
e constal,ulary force for that country on the same plan as the
metropeAtan police in England, leaving the provincial magis-
traeT to be appointed by the Crown. It might be right in the
ore instance to leave the appointment of hundreds of Magis-
(lsles to the power of the Secretary of State. There might
be many reasons why the system prevailing in one country
'should not be adopted in the other. More particularly it might
be alleged that religious animosities existed in the one country
Which did not exist in the other, which alone might render it
snore beneficial that the appointment should be in the power
of the Crown rather than under the influence of local autho-
Mies, however respectable those authorities might be--( Hear),
heat) So that, however desirous he might be to apply the
same principles to Ireland as those which regulated Eng-
land, he supposed it would be admitted on all hands that it
would be most impolitic to do so. He agreed with the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin, and with him he said, be-
ware hew you entrust local authorities with irresponsible
Power, tiubiect to all the influence of village prejudices._
(Cheers.) " If the system of police adopted was good for the
country, it might be said why was it not good for the town ?
bifferent circumstances required different treatment, and he,
therefore, said now, as he said before, without pledging him-
self to similar measures for Ireland as those that had been ob-
tained for England, he might pursue a course of impartial
Justice. Such was the reasoning that influenced him in pro-
Ansirig anamendmcnt to the King's Speech at the commence-
ment of the Session, and in pursuing the course he did te had
been supported by a powerful minority, who thr;ught with
Lim that while they were ready to concede impartial justice to
Ireland , they did not wish to be fettered by a pledge that they
should legislate for otie part of the empire in the same way as
they did for another, without rthrence to circumstances of al-
together a different character, and demanding different lcgis
lation

Cheers.)
Mr. GRATTAN complained that year after year, and
Century after centdry, Ireland bad been ruled by, and appoint-
Ments made trader, a party spirit.
Colonel PERCEVAL inquired of the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland whether it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to provide the inspectors of police in Ireland with
.4113' retiring allowances. He had in view more particularly
ILl.Putting that question Major Warburton, Sir John Harvey,
Frederick Stovin, and Major Miller, of the Artillery.
Lord MORPETH could not give a precise answer on the
subject; but it was under the consideration of the Government.
Mr. O'LOGHLIN said that with regard to the mention
that had been made of the appointment of 84 solicitors to be
the officers for conducting prosecutions in Ireland, he begged
to inform the House that be had been credibly informed
that there were but 24 in fact nominated, and out of that
number eight or nine were Pr:Aestants, and the remainder had
been appointed on the reer.sturnendation of Protestant Gentle-
men and Barristers. Hear, bear.) The religion of the
Parties had not been, taken into consideration, nor was the
°ince. as appeared generally to be supposed, one of very great
~"101ument. rne lee received upon each case of prosecution
`_‘',as only two guineas, and many Gentlemen during the year
ultl not derive more than ten guineas from the office. He had
Ite!,"(1 let,ers from some that had been nominated declining
"Ilty, upon the ground that it was more profitable to be
empAl loy•ed for the rioters.—( A laugh.)
• LEFRO Y believed that the Bill would contribute to
the peace and tranquillity of Ireland.
CO- VERNER (as we understood) informed the House
that the constabulary force of the smallest province in Ireland
exceeded that of Ulster, one of te last, by two or hree
hundred men that the same force h
in one rge
of the southern t
pro-
v- inces exceeded that of all Ulster and Leinster—and that in
°lle southern county there was nearly an equal number to that
of Ulster.

Mr. H. GRATTAN said a few words, which were in-
audible.

Mr. FINN defended the conduct of Sir Frederick Stovin,
and regretted that he was not provided for as the others of the
inspectors.
Mr. SHAW, in reference to the statement by the Attorney-
General for Ireland, that the appointments of Crown prose-
cutors were not, as the newspapers had given them to under-
stand, exclusively Catholic,should beg to say that, in alluding
sr them as be did, 'ne'oad done so on the authority.. of a Gen-
had-e', r •
° unimeeached honour and integrity in Ireland, who
writt
14,, ben to him to that effect.
the "ARtION was glad the present measure had met with
coulePe'arrence of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite,
,but he
thet"piliq help thinking that it would have been consistent of
sns -sight HOD. Gentleman if he had originally adopted the
`"itteiple in his own Bill on the subject in 1814.
„..4r• ROCHE supported the motion.
Avlr. LEFROY wished to know whether it was the inter'.
ga of the Government, :after passing the Bill before the
Ouse, to cancel the appointment of officers at present holding
emnraissions in the constabulary force ?
Lord MORPETH said the commissions held by those
Individuals would, of course, be cancelled; but they would
tither receive re-appointments or the remuneration for the ser-
ices to which they were entitled.—( Hear.) Before the
question was put to the House he would observe that,
iusving seen it stated that this Bill would make the police
independent of the Magistracy, he was bound to say that it
s^csld do no such thing • but that in all respects sties- were to
itLo
the same as under the original appointments. The Noble
Ora expressed his gratitude to the Right Hon. Baronet for
„"e support he had givkri the measure both at" the present and
tiiCiation.
rSir R. PEEL said that perhaps it would be more coo-
inient for him to 'refer them to the observations of the
°u• Member for Waterford respecting his conduct in
t 414, than to wait for the second
reading, when the prin-
of the measure would come ' to be discussed. The.
iti-n• Member had charged him with inconsistency in support-
Pleasure now which he had not meted before. Nov,
t,Pl3s,sing that accusation were correct, and thatll'c (Sir R.
sP'-l) took a course in 1814 different from that which ho took
netl'iresent on the same subject, was tbilisleo preclude him from
behlt according to his conviction, and doing that which he
seved to be right? If he remembered right at the distance
itase°dlaany years. as had. elapsed since 1814, the Bill he then
ueed was in principle ,s-ctly similar to that of the No-
Lord isord, for it vested the appoinstnettezcisthe eonsta-
epiaD' force in the hands o the Lord Liesurenailt alone, in his
the H°
the hest principle which could be adopted. If
r "enourable Gentleman had only, taken the tronble. of
°ler •
,irmg to the Act before he had charged him with in
-
a, he would have found that it was precisely
It, :De (Si; R. Peel) had stated—(l—and, as he (Sir
desinel) remembered, the constables appointed under it were
di. Oated by the opprobrious (or appropriate we could not
-I,:iuguish which) name of " Peelers."—( Laughter.) ( A
(erP en the Opposition benches—" Orange Peelers.")—
" ples, " Oh.") As they were designated by the. name
Olera"---( Laughter)—it confirmed his recollection, and
L:4'.(l not surely have the effect of effacing that of. the Hon.
rnber, that they owed their appointment to him and the
Lieutenant.
e4vn was given to bring in the Biil.
lqr rs B RECORD COMMISSION.
apt) ;* C. ULLER brought forward his motion for the
aite'utment of a Select Committee on the Record Commis-
atm- The lion. Member said that it would be sufficient to
into° tto the House, for the purpose of obtaining an inquiry
last I" subject, that the Record Commission had had for the
'l,oo,ieven or eight years an annual grant of 6,0001. or
had ; so that, though the sum was apparently small, they teone already .y expended upwards of 40,0001. of the public
eost4ei' Furthermore, that the Irish Record Commission,.
with with it, cost about the same ; and that, not sans-
" with tl the
ts,n that, Record Commission was at present more
Stoi, 20,000/. in debt. After that statement he thought; the
tre;se,would think worth while to inquire how all that
wita nail been expended.—( Hear.) Part of it, he believed,
tln tipmevoted to publishing in the various languages of Europe
sf ti;"unt of the nature of the Commission, and a full detail.
his e uanics and titles of the Commissioners. He held. in
the nand a Portuguese pamphlet on the subject, in which
--stimes of the Commissioners were most romantically given
Ho:• i,l!)ulat in the purest Portuguese.—(Laughter.) The
astliesateMber then read some Portuguese translations. of the
by IV of the Commissioners, amidst much merriment, caused
brie, metamorphoses from English into that language. The
see object of the Commission should be the care of the
) Rm.—their preservation and the transcription of such as
,
feutl`rceme nearly defaced by time 'or accident. The fault lie
,44in with the Commission—for he
made no personal charges
tiro"
the Commissioners was that these objects were en-
,,Y, or almost wholly neglected. With regard to the care
,'_eisnee records, all he would say was that at present they were
iherved—.he could scarcely say kept—in different parts of
t} tl':‘,),%7n, in Somerset House, the Rolls' Chapel, and in
iews• In the former place they were kept in long,
Ish_mdamp vaults, where a ray of light never entered, and
& tire was only occasionally kindlsd. Indeed, the
sfi.ePr was often afraid to touch them for fear he
th°aui get the rheumatism in his hand.—(Laughter.) In
toa Court they were as badly off, for they were placed
the bin Court
on shelves that a ladder must be obtained to reach
u,lll, and then there was the chance of falling from the top
terolt. the roll over the adventurous individual who made the ex-
nent. No very pleasant predicament.—( A laugh.) But
el.. the Mews they were nurse off of all. There they were
sas!sed in sacks, and measured by bushels. There were 650
u.:17, containing eight bushels each ; so that if a record were
clf thtng' a person would have to wade through eight bushels
seal them' a
before he found that of which he was in
Wase,°• -( Lughter.) One of the objects of the Commission
I.° build an office for their preservation ; and be had seen

- •
a vary fair esticnate *sr 2000/. ; but it had never been built.
Ti_. expee'S'e of preparing the vaults under the Pipe yilikl
lifilounted to 16,000/., and the remove' of tbb records at
Westminster through these 11)i11'S:eons cost 12,0001. moree
so that 25,0001. of tri6 public money was -thus expended;
and ne pfibanent good derived from it'. Anough his been
%plint in these temporary prelirile sit ;o Gild a good Re-
cord Office. The. Tibet i‘atils'ohant object of the Commissioners
was the sefety of the records. In 1732 it was gravely re-
effifled to the House that a brewhouse and Weehhoese Its Kb
neighbourhood of the Record depeeiter.y at WettitilitArgreatly
endangered the safety ty these doCtiniCet?.:. 'Phese then be-
longed to the bean and t frapt of the Cathedral. In 1819
a thisiler report *an made, and the same ground of complaint
then existed% Two expeditions were Rent eta of that House,
and the Right Hon. Baronet tpposite was a Member of one
of these, but they &dined interfering with the pronarty and
privilege of the bean and Chapter; so thet the nuisance con=
filmed Unabated, a very strong pent of the power and perti-
nacity of the Church its this country.—( Laughter.) He had
heard that the bushels made admirable rat-traps, and that on
one occasion the skeleton of a cat had been found amongst
them. He had lately heard that the embezzlement of records
had been carried on to a serious extent, and that at the sale of a
deceased virtuoso a lot of this kind fetched 1004 They were
also to be - found, as matters of course, in curiosity.sheps
through the city. The Commissioners %vete especially ex-
pected to report on the subject of fees, a matter of great im
port, which still lay quite neglected, though Sir Harris Nicho-
las had, in his valuable work, exposed the enormity of the pre-
vailing practice. It appeared that one wishing to look at a
single record must pay 16s. Bd, ; if a transcript were taken
additional fees were required—if a copy, higher still, A
general search cost five guineas, and in the Roll's Chapel ten
guineas. There they would not copy a part of a document--
all or none must be taken for the applicant. A person wanted
a few lines of a particular instrument transcribed, and applied
to be permitted to copy them. He was told be must, to obtain
them, order an office copy of the entire record, the expense of
which would be 140 guineas, and this abuse was yet unreformed.
Again, if a document was required in a Court of Law, a gui-
nea per day was charged for bringing it from the Tower; if
ten records %sere required at once, ten guineas were charged,
and so on. The effect of this might be estimated from the
fact, that in a single case, instituted to try the right to a Ba-
rony in Stafford, that lasted some days in a Court of Law, the
charge was eighty guineas..—(lleer, hear.) The subject of'
the preservation of the records seemed to be entirely neglected
in the eagerness of the Commissioners to print certain costly
documents, instead of which the public wanted to see a good
arrangement adopted, Et good index made, and easy access af-
forded to learned men, and all engaged in the publication of
ancient works. The Hon. Member called attention to several
expenseve private works reprinted by the Commissioners out of
tie public funds, amongst which were 314 copies of extracts
from " Doomsday Book," at 1/. each, and 3001. to Sir Henry
Ellis for superintendence ; Mr. Cooper's account of the
" Ancient and Valuable Records of Great Britain ;" " Chan-
cery Proceedings in the Reign of Elizabeth ;" and " Rhymer's
Fcedera." In the items of expense of the Commission of
Irish Records, they were surprised to see a charge for the
collection of ancient and valuable works in England by
Mr. Rowley Lascelles. It appeared, on applying to that
gentleman for an explanation, he had (on a quarrel amongst
the Irish Commissioners) been deputed to select at this side of
the water, and certainly had brought together, some "ancient
and valuable records," amongst which collection appeared a
pamphlet of Mr. Croker's on the state of Ireland, and Mr.
Thomas Moore's " Captain Rock."—( Hear.) He thought
the Commissioners had rather gone out of their way in send-
ing a deputation to Belgium, to request the copy of a docu-
ment which was itself a copy of an original record existing in
the Tower of London—(Hear)--and could not understand
how they could find occupation for similar embassies in Ger-
many, Portugal, Prussia, Italy, &c., except to furnish a justi.
fication for expending four thousand pounds per annum in sa-
laries.—( Hear.) He decidedly objected to the constitution of
the Commission.
Mr. WYNN defended the Commissioners f...., - etublica.
tions alluded to, which bad, under the sanction..` _ ament,
been distributed to the Members of both Ho' ."1`..: - e was
himself a Member of the Commission, and he '-.e©,"that the
Commissioners had frequently laid before Peisiletnent their
opinion of the necessity of building a new ,ltt4prd Office.
They had net authority to build or to remove tcords any
where. The Commission, he believed, was fiM*ggested
many years ago by Lord Bexley, but not carried iate effect
fully until a much more recent period, under the present Com-
missioners. Without at all including himself, he believed there
were men upon the Commission whose names vverc-fi sufficient
guarantee for adopting the best means to accomplish the ob-
ject for which they had been appointed. Sir James. Mackin-
tosh, Mr. Hallam, and Mr. Allen, were on the Commission,
and the late Earl Spencer and Mr. Dundas, the Lord Regis-
ter of Scotland, were constant attendants at the meetings of
the Commissioners.
Mr. JERVIS said, the heavy fees demanded for inspecting
those records, were a grievous injustice and oppression on the
public. He could name one striking instance of this which
came under his own observation at the last assizes at:„Chester.
On a trial which involved a disputed claim to pro inspect erty, it was
.1
necessary to six sides only of a grant of .',. en Eliza-
beth, and in order to do this the parties were compe led to take
a copy of 56 sides of folio parchment, containing:totally irre-
levant matter.
Sir R. INGLIS said that it was rather strange that the
Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller) should take so much
pains to find fault with a Commission appointed by the present
Government, which he had so' strenuously supported. He be-
lieved that he himself (Sir It. Inglis) was the only Tory on
the Commission. The preseet Speaker was at the head of it,
and . the Coinniission, he believed,, originated with Lord
Brougham. As to removing' the Record -, e had been de-
cided by the authority of one of the Judges- . e attended on
...
the Commission at the Speaker's hoe.%
et s .- ; '‘' • , not com-
petent to the Commissioners to remove theteree'i a t, all Act_
of Parliament.'
Mr. HUM-E:suggeeted that, as, 'the old efeftttelsfeseees were
now selling off at the Tower, which would' leave pl of room
there, the records ought to be removed' -there-aes.t.* ;best and
safest place for their preservation. - . ~ . ,
) - s
Mr. PRINGLE trusted the motion elouldslieeeet elect
Of increasing the energy and activity of the .Ott ee_ners.
~
After a few words from Mr. Wynn, Lorl;l*3 104444-.
Baynes, and Mre Buller,.the motion was iefreesile '
Committee appointed. ' . ss-se e-S
' . DIVISIONS OF THE HOU: . --
_. • Mr: WARD rose to bring forward liii";:'' e-4.1 ......144t1\
-the male of taking the divisions of tile flot4q. " ''e:-AtM'
to interfere between the House am' ...'.. er
tion that was to come before them. at ..., .'.,;
the Muse and the interest of their ,nie:Ti-s
in his-motion. The House, on a
came to the conclusion that it was
an authentic record of their proem
had long entirely given up the old
there was no man, he believed, vial.
called. They nowe considered them,
tribunal than it was,the custom to
A majority might be" the triumph ,
must ultiniately .pronounce their o
policy of Any triuniph in that Honk.
source threttgb:rrhich.their precceell
was dent that there should lie
tlie-voteriS tkeHouse, and. of the
A Cnisuretteraivas appointed Visi
subject, with the.conseet of the Rig
Peel) then at' the head of the'G,
the present Government that the C,
report, and the principle they red
which was the double lobby principle. ...
Exchequer said lie would propose a vote kr‘th.e, erection of a
second lobby. It was now erected, and nothing remained but
to sanction the resolutions which it was,,hisintention to pre-'
pose. The first resolution was that agreed to last session, that
upon every division, the House be cleared, and dna the Mem-
bers do separate into two lobbies. The second resolution was,,
that there be four tellers, two stationed at the door of each
lobby, and four clerks to receive from the tellers the votes of
the Members. That the votes thus received be brought up to
the table and separated into alphabetical order. lie saw a
tabular list which he believed had been prepared by the
Speaker that would be a great convenience, and might prevent
any mistakes that might possibly arise from their being a num-
ber of Members of the same name. It seemed to him that this
plan was simple and feasible enough, and he had no doubt that
with someindustry and experience it would work well. The
present system did not work well.' It gave rise to numerous
errors. As a proof of this he need only refer to a division of
last night, in which, as given in the newspapers, there were ire
a majority of 179 not less than 56 errors, and the name of.
one Hon. Member given as having voted both ways, and the
names of two or three Scotch Members who had only that
day arrived in town were omitted altogether. He would
mention one case of peculiar hardship. An Hon. and Gallant,
Friend of his, who was not now in the House, was charged
on the hustings with voting in support of the system of im-
pressment (as we understood), though he had uniformly voted
against it. No less than eleven lists of the division were pro-
duced against him with his name on the list where it ought not
to have been. It was probable that the whole of these lists
were copied from some one paper in which the mistake origi-
nated. Now, let the House consider for a moment to what
inconveniences a candidate must have been placeddinder such
circumstances. It would be easy in future to presiAt such in-
conveniences, by having
.every morning, after a division had
taken place, an authenticated list of the votes published. He
should not trespass further on the attention of the House, but
submit the resolutions.

, .
lye" to

The question being put,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was not aware, until he
came down to the House at the opening of the session, that a
new lobby had been built. The strongest argument in sup-
port of the motion was, that the second lobby was already pre-
pared. He must confess he did not feel quite certain that the
plan now proposed would greatly lessen the inconveniences
complained of. There were occasions upon which it might
increase very much the loss of time. This occurred in one of
the divisions of last night, where a large majority went out,
while only the small number of thirty-five remained in. He
admitted the importance of having correct lists of the divi-
sions, but, before finally deciding upon any plan, they should
ascertain by trial whether or not it was likely to work well.
It. must be inconvenient for Hon. Members to be under the
necessity of correcting errors in the, lists as now published, but
would this plan completely prevent similar errors from getting
into the journals of the House ? Gentlemen when they saw
their names on the journals in the lists where they ought not
to be, would naturally complain to the House of mistake, and
apply for the leave of the House for the correction of it. The
time of the House would thus be taken up, and the inconve-
nience to Members would perhaps be as great as it was now.
As, however, the lobby was built, be -was desirous to concur
in the motion.
Sir R. PEEL said the plan proposed by the Hon, Gentle-

t- the 1-lo ':77;:jle: irtT sorfy soi
id the. .-, : • i,pontint ques- pr
. But .. :i'4iiven,iellto3l4ritto
it coni4o,, 'Arorei., ',/,Jh'
L mottol.l.46lait'' p, "'CI
inipoi“-ith - ,-‘-. '
.:0-, trt
D ding, Bia:itv. --- , po
1 priiiferti,ls'
,or;io.,iiiit,4o,l,l co.
. woula, jiopi.. -',ltallie.46, te,
mselves,iieeCtitt*Vtlio (1
look.di fi) in. fviptt ittn4s. do
of a pral. tuifiiltp, pilblie Fil
opinion 3n j -.Wee and t)-)(
e• ldC jtliOf/4_l(A o ustthl pro
ring.-..otitlitliitYpity; he lar
e so Oi e,. a1..440110'-rrcBfrd of ia r
mimes of t'*-who voted. scr
>t ym- eto lo iro,:hito thi, wa
ig-ht lion.* net (:Sir ft. of
i'roverntnent? t Oas,tinder tin]
:',oinrnittei ,' - Ffiredi- their tits
ecornmendetittftaq.. ' adopted (II
e.• The
. Chstritieilor of the ,ot