The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-14 00:00:00

CEYLON.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH fixed his motion on the
affairs of Ceylon for this day fortnight.
IRISH LOANS.

Mr. 11ACGREGOR gave notice that on the 16th in-
stant he should move for twelve returns connected with
the loans made to Ireland since the Union, and generally
relating to the Irish funds.
IRISH CRIMINAL LAW.
Sir 11. W. BARRON gave] notice of his intention
to introduce a Bill for the amendment of the criminal
law of Ireland.

INDIAN RAILWAYS.
In reply to a question from Lord MAHON,
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said it was perfectly true that
negotiations were going on between certain railway
companies and the East India Company with respect to
the formation of railways in India. No good could now
arise from entering into any explanation on the
subject, but he could assure the Noble Lord
that the moment he was acquainted with the result of
the negotiation, he should not have the slightest objec-
tion to give every explanation.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to know whether the Indian
Government had determined not to make those railways
themselves, in the event of their not being made by pri.
vate companies?
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said that the Indian Go.
vernment had come to no such determination. The
state of the case was exactly this—that at present it
was thought much more preferable that those under-
takings should be carried out by private companies,
but most assuredly the Indian Government had not
come to the determination to carry them out themselves
if private companies would not undertake them.
TIDAL HARBOURS.
In reply to Lord BERNARD,
Sir F. T. BARING said he had not yet had time to
go through the Bill on this subject, but he would turn
his attention immediately to it. It would be a permis-
sive Bill, and there was no cumpulsory power given
by it.
SHEEP AND CATTLE STEALING IN IRELAND.
In reply to a question from Mr. BOURKE,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said, the Bill on the subject
of sheep and cattle stealing in Ireland was being pro•
ceeded with.

HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION (IRELAND)

BILL.

The consideration of the report upon this Bill was
postponed until to-morrow.

RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND).
The bringing up of the report was postponed until to-
morrow.

COMMON LAW COURTS (IRELAND).
Mr. REYNOLDS withdrew the following motion:
Returns from the Court of Queen's Bench, Common
Pleas, and Exchequer, in Ireland, of the number of eject-
ments brought in these courts respectively, for the last
three years, beginning with Hilary Term, 1846, and
ending with Hilary Term, 1849, both included; specify-
ing the number in each term and year, and the counties
in which they have been brought, and the number of
persons served in each ejectment, according to the affida-
vits of service, distinguishing the number brought for non-
payment ofrent, and the number brought for overholding.
And, from the Assistant Barrister? Court of each county
in Ireland, of the number of civil bill ejectments entered
in each of such courts for a similar period, together with
the number of the defendants in each civil bill ejectment,
and distinguishing the number sued for nonpayment of
rent, and the number for overholding, and the number
for desertion.

DUBLIN POLICE.
On the motion of Mr. REYNOLDS, it was ordered
that the return relating to the Dublin Metropolitan Po•
lice, presented the Bth day of this instant February, be
printed.

NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Mr. LABOUCHERE stated that it was his intention
to bring on the navigation-laws to-morrow.
SICILY AND NAPLES.
Mr. URQUHART inquired if the Noble Lord would
have any objection to furnish a return of the distribution
of the squadron of Sir W. Parker in the ports of the
coasts of Sicily, of the kingdom of Naples, and of the
Adriatic, from the month of March last down to the latest
intelligence.

Lori' PALMERSTON thought it would be very incon.
venient to the public service to produce the papers re-
ferred to.

The return was not, therefore, pressed for.
COUNTY COURTS.

On the motion of Mr. GRANGER, the following
returns from every County Court established throughout
England and Wales, under the Act 9 and 10 Vic., c. 95,
were ordered :

1. The total number of plaints entered in each court,
from the Ist day of January to the 31st day of Decem-
ber, 1848, both days inclusive; specifying the number of
plaints above 101.; above 5/. and not exceeding 1014
above 2/. and not exceeding 5/.; above 11. and not ex-
ceding 21.; and not exceeding 11.
2. The total number of causes tried by each Court
during the same period; specifying the number of
causes above 10/.; above Si. and net exceeding 10/4
above 21. and not exceeding 5/.; above 1/. and not ex-
ceeding 2/.; and not exceeding 11.
3. The total number of days that each Court has sat
within the same period, and the average number of
hours comprised in each sitting.
4. Tho total amount of moneys for which the plaints
were entered in each court during the same period.,
5. The total amount of moneys, exclusive of costs, for
which judgment has been obtained in each court during
the same period, and also the amount of such costs.
6. The total amount of moneys paid into each court
during the same period in satisfaction of debts sued for,
without proceeding to judgment.
7. The gross total amount of moneys received in each
court during such pericd; distinguishing the amount for
fees for each officer, and on account of the general fund,
from the amount received to the credit of suitors.
8. The total amount of moneys received on account of
the general fund in each court during the same period,
and the total amount of disbursements thereout; specify-
ing the principal purposes for which such disbursements
were made.
9. The total number of causes tried in each court dur-
ing the same period with the assistance of a jury; spe-
cifying the number of such causes in which a verdict has
been given in favour of the party requiring a jury to be
summoned (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No.
2172, of session 1847-8.)
THE FISHERIES OF IRELAND.

tee to inquire into the present state of the
Mr. C. ANSTEY rose to move for a Select Cdomfimshit:
gssntructions
cries and navigation of Ireland, and
which hinder the enjoyment of the same;the
and to report their
means of removing such obstructions,
hHonourable and
opinion thereupon to this House.
perhaps be in the
Learned Member said that it wouldtowirds the end of
and the best
recollection of the House that
he
should in-
last session he gave notice that
management of the
troduce a Bill to improve
with a view to render the
important fisheries of Ireland,
aimple than heretofore, and
more productive than during
them
m iPo"
consequently to render them
Bill introduced by the Right ion.
the past. The rvine) in the course of last
laws relating to th
(Sir W. Seine
Baronet
session would have effected some improvements with
known as the "ci ~ •
tto what was •
respec
as defective in other respects, particularly
'i"; but it wthe • htof
with respect to , rig way, and to the fishing below
and above the " tidal water, which it was the purpose of
the Bill he (Mr. A.) intended to introduce to remedy.
In England the salmon fisheries, comparatively unim-
portant, were for the most part " several" fisheries—
that was held by individuals. In Scotland—he spoke
in the presence of those best competent to give an
opinion—he believed it was universally true that the
salmon fisheries were • private property, or what was
called in our law " several" fisheries; but of
Ireland, with the exception of those fisheries, and they
were very few, which were vested in individuals by Act
of Parliament, no such thing as a " several" fisher
existed. Every fishery, supposed to bo a " several'
fishery, which had been hitherto made the subject of
legislation in the courts of Ireland, had been found to be
a fishery of public right,and no several fishery at all; and
therefore it was in a peculiar manner the duty of
the Government, who were the guardians of the nation,
and particularly of the poor, to supervise those exten-
sive and valuable kinds of public property, and to pre-
vent all invasion of them. It was in this respect—op-
posed as he was to Government interference with the
management of Ireland—that he was anxious to state
his opinion to be, that it is, and has always been,t
the duty of Government, and not of individuals at all,nc;
watch over and preserve the inland salmon fisherioe!,!irec.i.
the inland navigation in all the navigable rivertsonf Iwo.,
land. Re so limited himself, because his motion
,_
intended to apply to navigable rivers elopes, tabselv "several"
fishery navigable rivers alone that no right of
Irland existed.
fishery in the present state of
the sea was navi-
When a river discharging itself into the
navigable, even
gable from the sea, so far as that river
amuch bl. '
a pu zcs
for boats of the smallest burdens, it was
juris as seas beyond the coast. So far as a river was
far did the public
right
navigable from the mouth, on_
I James 1.,n0 claim of a
extend. From the reign °-

S AND TAXES.
Mr. HUME movedSTAM P
for a copy of the Treasury minute
fur the consolidation of the Board of Stamps with the
Board of Excise ; and a statement of the reduction of
officers by the consolidation, together with the reduction
of expense thereby.—Agreed to.
KAFIR WAR.
Mr. V. SMITH, seeing the Right Hon. Member the
Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his place, wished
to ask him a question. It would, no doubt, be in the
recollection of the Right Honourable Gentleman
that, towards the close of last session he informed the
House that a report had been received from Sir Henry
Pottinger, concerning the expenses of the Kafir
war and government of the Cape of Good Hope
generally. That report, it was stated, had been
referred by the Colonial-office to the con-
consideration of the Ordnance Department, and
he (Mr. V. Smith) wished to know whether any
report had been received from the Ordnance department
upon that document?
Mr. HAVES said no report had yet been received
from the Ordnance department, and he was not in a po-
sition to say when it would be. furnished. The inquiry
was a very laborious and complicated one. That was
the only answer he was able to give to the Hon. Member
at present.

prescriptive character to a " several" fishery had yet
been sustained. When he stated this fact he appealed to
the recollection of Hon. Gentlemen that had read the
history of Ireland; and it would be seen how impossible it
was that any title by prescription to a " several" fishery
in Ireland could have been acquired by any indi-
vidual now claiming it. His proposition which
he made in the spirit, not of one party or
of another—(Hear)—not even is the spirit of extreme
right, being always satisfied these were matters of legis-
lation in which more particularly the summum pis
than the summum injuria should obtain. His
proposition was that the interests of claimants
and of the public, as well as the legal rights
of the poor, who had been so long prejudiced in
this matter, should be conserved; and it was not his
inteat,eaa to institute any one measafe which would
not provide to the fullest extent for the quasi
rights of those particular claimants. But on the other hand
it was undoubtedly and lamentably true that, not con-
tent with their assertion of those derogatory rights,
and the mischief inevitably occasioned by such
assertion to the general rights of the public
and the poor, the monopolists for such
he must be permitted to term the owners of
those illegal obstructions—and ever since that
introduction was first connived at by the Go-
vernment, and not acquiesced in by the help-
less and defenceless poor, proceeded further
and further in their preservation until the
result had been that in a country watered
with rivers of the largest extent ; rivers which
were stocked with the finest fish sufficient for the
provisions of the population and the markets of Great
Britain, not one fish had been taken in many of those rivers.
The Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to enu-
merate the rivers that were monopolised by pa-
tents, which he contended were rendered ille-
gal, by their not being dated later than the time
of Queen Elizabeth, and then asked the House to bear
with him for a few moments, while he pointed out the
extent of loss which the people of Ireland suffered
from the existence of these monopolising obstructions of
theae their rivers. Estimating the value of the lost fish
according to its market price, Ireland lost 000,000/.
worth of fish annually, independently of the
consequential damage which resulted to them
from the defective state of the law, allowing poaching to
be carried on- with impunity. It had been as-
certained that one thousand female, fish • were
annually • destroyed in the river Blackwater ;
each fish producing 1,500 spawn, of which 800 came to
maturity; and, carrying out that calculation, it
would be found that Ireland was .an annual
loser in that / way of 160,0001., resulting entirely
from the state of the existing law inducing the re-
sident gentry and landholders on the rivers to
feel that it was not worth while taking steps to pre-
vent poaching during the close season. This was
the case he had to _present to the House as a foundation
for his Committee. If the Committee were granted, the
measures which he should teel it his duty to propose, would
be of an administrative character only. He was perfectly
satisfied to„ take the law as it stood, beginning with
the Act of 1842, which did not go the extreme length of
giving a common law right to remove the obstructions,
and with the strict observance of its provisions he felt
convinced that a remedy might easily be provided
for the evils which afflicted the valuable and
extensive fisheries of the sister kingdom.—(Hear, hear.)
Notwithstanding that the statute law provides. a re-
medy for the mischief, yet the benefit of the Act
could not be obtained except through a regular course,
and the, gentlemen of Waterford, Cork, and the other
counties had not called upon him to ask Legislative as-
tittance, without having tried every means, both legal and
equitable, to arrest the continual loss. But all their efforts
bad been frnitiess, for it was found, both in the trials in
the courts of petty sessiona and of qaerter sessions, that
the results had been invariably adverse, for four out of
the live infteietrates were themselves found to
he owners of weirs, while, upon application to
the superior court,: the decisions. of. the lower courts
wire ieiye'confitinatory of the dteerinination of the ma-
gity,tes, and this was not in S,ccerl:ince with. the spirit
of the 1?w„ ler they,w ere contrary to that of one of the
ra-)st in;.neet _rs of Ireland, Cllr. Berryman. The
liem lient!erean preceedtd to show the diffienity
was constantly experiene:-d in enforcing the ex-
ietinelaws tee the sat6c.,t, ci tlee.e, fisheries, after which
he raid the remedy he would te-opoise wale that imme-
d4tety upee it conviction beizee obtain:el before tiny ex-
ieting tr; cr before a irinunal appointed uneer a
nee, Aet, th subsequent proecedines shoeid he a teere
zhalter.of polic.?; that.in the case of an illegal weir, for
Este:ice., It Shi,ll id be immediately thr.:wn down, and if
another was erected in its place it should be thrown down
likaveise, without further prosecution. This woeld be of
considerable advantage, end although it was by no
tm:a,nr ail to which the pour of Ireland tied tile inland
proprietor.: were entitled, it would go a great way to-
wards eatiieyieg their just expectuti:ms and removing
their well-grounded compleinis. If the Committee
were granted, lie would not ask for powers
to send • for witnesses ; but if nny persons
chose • te volueteer their evidence, he should be
lieppy to propose that they should be examined. His
object wocid he completely answered by the Committee
haying au opportunity of examirsinfe the evidence which
had already been taken by the Haar% of Works, and by
the producaon of the cot respondence which had taken
piace,lest year, and in former years, between those locally
interested in the fisheries and the Government, respect-
_ ing the difficulty of prosecutions under the Fisheries Act
and at common law at present. The ion. Gentleman
concluded by moving for the appointment of a Committee.
Sir H. W: BARRON seconded the motion, and begged

to 'suggest to the Hon. Member the propriety of adding
ti it rt inquiry into the dt,ep sea fisheries. They had a
treasure there which was ahogether inexhaustible, and
which might be made the source of a comtortable liveli-
: 11:00dAti thousands of poor starving people on the coast of
Ireland, if :neans were only taken to instruct them in the
improved modes of fishing which were practised in Scot-
land.' He attributed the improvements which had taken
place there to the labours of the Fishery Board, which
• had been established in 1800, and suggested
• that a similar board should be appointed for
Ireland. .He understood- that at present Scotland
exported no less than 15,0001. worth of fish to Ireland
every year, and yet so superabundant were the fish
• around the Irish coast, that with proper arrangements a
supply could be furnished to the whole of the people of
that country, and of other countries besides. This was
ona of the practical measures which Irish Members had
frequently pressed upon Government, but with no satis-
factory result. There had been no tangible opposition
made, to their suggestions, but itothing had been done.
There had been plenty of promises, but no performances.
He implored. the House, as a mere matter of economy,
if not of justice, to take steps to place the Irish fisheries
on the same footing as the Scotch. He did not think
that an inquiry into this subject would interfere with
the inquiry proposed by the Hon. Member.
The O'GORMAN MAHON had intended to second
the motion, but was glad to have been anticipated by the
Hon. Meunier for Waterford. He would only now re-
mark, in confirmation of what had been said by the Hon.
Baronet,stfmt.if the deep sea fisheries in Ireland had
been encouraged by Government as they ought to have
been, there would not now be the mass of misery which
they had the pain of contemplating in that country, nor
would it have been neceesary to ask for relief from the
public Troasury.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
addition proposed by the Hon. Baronet, he begged to
suggest that he should first allow the Committee to be
named, and then add his amendment by way of instruc-
tion to the Committee.

Sii.:*.SOMEtVIL LE said it was not his intention
to object to the apdointment of the Committee which
had been moved for by the Hon. Gentleman. It seemed
to him, however, that the suggestion of the Hon. Baro-
net the Member for Waterford referred to an entirely
different subject, and that the two inquiries could not
a$ ell be conjoined.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Anstey) had correctly described the state of the law in
Ireland on this subject. He had also correctly stated
the object which he (Sir W. Somerville) had had in view
in the Bill of last session. Several Acts of Parliament
had previously been passed regulating the Irish fisheries,
and there had been general complaints from all parts
of the country that these laws were inoperative be-
cause there were no police to carry out the regulations.
The object of the Bill of last sessjeu therefore, was to
give power to the parties interested to meet together and
be their own conservators, and if possible, protect the
spawn of the fish. That was the sole object of the Bill
of last session. He admitted that it was an experiment,
but it was one which had not yet been fairly tried. He
remembered, that in the course of last session, the Hon.
Member stated that the Bill to which he now referred
would not effect the object he had in view, viz., the re-
moval of illegal obstructions. It appeared to him that
that was the object of the Hon. Member's present motion,
and he had stated such strong
itto beimpossiblegrounds to re
for itttfhuast he
(Sir W. Somerville) felt
his
assent to it.—(Hear, hear:) agreed with the
He quite .
Honourable Member that the salmon fisheries Ireland
were much neglected; he believed they wore a mine of
wealth, the extent of which had never
yet been explored.
--(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member
Water-
ford had, as he had said, alluded to for
an entirely dif-
ferent subject, and he confessed he did not see
what good would result from a Committee upon it.
W ithin the last year or two, under the superna-
dence of Government and the Board of Works, several
deep sea fisheries had been established in the west of
Ireland, some of which had succeeded very well, and
others had not succeeded quite so well as might have
been expected. He trusted, however, that a great deal
of good would result, and • much useful information be
imparted to the fishermen on the coast by their efforts;
and the Government would soon be able to give way to
private enterprise in providing that encouragement to
the employment of the fishermen which was so much
required.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. FAGAN said, that from the great advantage
which had accrued from the small encouragement which
had been given by Government in the deep sea fisherieS, it
was easy to see what an enlarged encouragement would
do for them. The Hon. Member for Waterford had es-
timated the imports of fish into Ireland from Scotland at
15,0001. The fact was, however, that they were upwards
of 60,000/. The effect of the law of last year, which
placed .a tax on each fisherman, had been to reduce many
of them to poverty, as they were unable to pay the surn,
Surat- as it was. He was delighted that Government
had given their consent to the. Committee.
Sir J. YOUNG- said, that if the Hon. Member who
moved for the-Committee expected that it would be of
advantage to the national interests, he feared it would
only add 000 to the many proots already existing that
no parliamentaryparliamentaryary
Intel; ference or enactment could, sup-
ply that prosperity to tae Irish fisheries which could be
derived from incl.!
vidu ,1 enterprise and energy alone
The Committee could not do the work which Irish ca.
Intel could accomplish
promoting the success of thefisheries.-(Hear.) If the n
hateLeiished to put an end to o. Member, on the other
the exi,tence of the rights
of zeVeo.l fisheries in Ireland, be feared the example of
the Committee on Scotch Fisheries, in 1842, forbade. any
bop of
;acv ILA those rrightsiAL!ces4. The Conial:lt"

were detrimental to the value of the fisheries, and placed
the exercise of them under restrictions, but that was all
they could effect—and if the present Oomrnittee endea-
voured to do more he doubted if it would be successful.
Those rights had been fully recognized by the Committee,
but the owners who had exercised them more than half
a century gave them up on terms to obtain a compro-
mise, and the Committee accepted their terms to prevent
litigation, which in some cases, in Scotland, had cost the
fee simple of the fishery. He heartily wished the Hon.
Member all success in his object.
The motion was agreed to.
TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY.

Mr. H. DRUMMOND moved for leave to bring in
a Bill to facilitate the Transfer of Real Property. As
Honourable Members had nearly all gone to dinner,
there was no one left to whom he could address himself
but the Speaker, and he would promise him not to stand
long in the way of his enjoying himself in the same way.
—(A laugh.) There was no reason why land should
not be as free in the market as anything else,. and no-
thing prevented that being the case but the existence of
feudal tenures. Into the nature of those tenures he would
not enter, nor would he occupy the House by showing
how the worst portion of them had been preserved,
while the burdens on the owners of land had long since
been removed. The only difficulty he felt in intro-
ducing the Bill was, that he could not conceive what
opposition would be made to it, and he could but an-
swer those which he had heard out of doors. He bad
been told, for instance, that it was presumptuous in a
person not called to the bar to introduce a Bill on such
a subject. Now, being "called to the bar " meant that
a person had eaten a certain number of dinners, and had
paid a certain amount of fees to a conveyancer—(A
laugh)—but he could not see any necessary connexion
between those things and the ability to draw up a Bill.—
(A laugh.) The question was not one for lawyers—
they had quite enoughrto do. Sidney Smith said long
ago that " the Court of Chancery was like a boa con-
strictor, which swallowed up the estates of English gen-
tlemen in haste, and digested them at leisure."—(A
laugh.) Surely those gentlemen should be satisfied to
perform the offices of mastication and digestion in their
own courts, and, if they were so, he did not see that any
one else need trouble himself on the subject. It was
solely a question for the. owners of land. But it was
said that only lawyers could draw up a Bill. That
remained to be proved. A great many Bills drawn
up by great lawyers would not work. For instance,
there was the Bill of last session, drawn up by the Lord
Chancellor, amended by the Solicitor-General with the
assistanee of very eminent members of the legal profes-
sion (the Encumbered Estates Bill), which turned out a
perfect caput mortuum. In fact, the Bills drawn up by
lawyers gave as much trouble to lawyers as those drawn
up by other persons.—(Hear, hear.) But he was told
he should wait till the Crown Commission which had
been appointed had made its report on the subject.
Rusticus expecteit—(A laugh)—but he must be a very
simple rustic indeed who expected any useful recom-
mendations from a Crown Commission.—(Hear, hear.)
He repudiated the idea that the lawyers would oppose
this Bill. The study of a liberal profession like the law
elevated men above the influence of sordid or interested
motives., and he should as soon suppose that the College
of Physicians would oppose a specific for some malig-
nant disease, %or that military men would be adverse to
peace—(A laugh)—as to- suppose that lawyers would
object to such a Bill as this.—(Hear, hear.) The mere
traders in law might do so, just as a certain body of
physicians, who dined together once on a time, gave " A
slow fever," with three times three.—(Laughter.) It
was therefore possible that there were some barristers
who, at their symposia, gave " Trusts for terms of
years," and " Contingent remainders," with all the ho-
nours.—(Laughter.) He would not detain the House
further, for, though quite ready to give them a long
speech when they wished it, he would rather abstain
just at that moment. With respect to carrying out the
object of the Bill, he proposed to establish a registry of
deeds in lands—(llear, hear)—and that this registra-
tion should he accompanied with maps of the same.—
(Hear, hear.) There could ha no objection now, as in
former times, on the score of expense to these maps,
because they could be had for (very parish in England
since the Tithe Commission sat. lie oho propos, d that
there should ho a p-r:ect registration or till euctun-
brances of every sort on the property.—(Hear, hear.)
li !did not intend that these registrations should be
compulsory; on the contrary, they were to be, purely
volutititry ; and, wh;.n the Bill was printed, he rather
fer.trA the objection would be that it did not go for
"1:'"ghl b'it he thought it right to restrict interference
with property to the least possible. lengths.
Mr. P. WOOD sounded the motion.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had no cb
jection to the introducien of the Edl, though he
could not express any opinion upon it, from the gene-
ral way in which -the Hon. Member had stated its ob-
jeet, till it was printed. No one could deny the great
importance and desirableness of the object sought to be
effected, and he thought•the Hon. Member had taken
a step in the right direction in selecting registration as
the mode of carrying it out, and accompanying that
registration with maps, without which it could not be
effectual. He should be happy to give the Hon. Mem-
ber every possible assistance in carrying out the plan he
suggested.—(hear.)
Leave was given to bring in•the Bill.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.

---
Sir J. PAKINGTI)N moved for leave to bring in
a Bill for the better Prevention of Bribery and Corrup-
tion at the Election of Members to servo in Parliament.
He had intended to etp'ain the provisions of the Bill at
length, but from what he bad heard since he entered
the House he was led to suppose there would be no op-
poiition to its in-roduction, as he believed the House felt
vary generally the evils of the gross and notorious
bribery at the last election. He would state its details
on the see,nd reading.
Mr. BIiOTHERTON seconded the motion.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he thought the lion.
Baronet had pursued the most convenient course in re-
serving his statement for the second reading, when he
(Lord John Russell) would give his utmost attention to
the Bill.

Colonel SIBTHORP declared he would discharge his
duties to hiB constituents in spite of any Bill against
bribery and corruption.—(A laugh.)
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
PUBLIC ROADS.

Mr. C. LEWIS moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
consolidate and amend the Laws relating to Public Roads
in England and Wales. Such a measure had been ren-
dered necessary by the change consequent on the intro-
duction of railways, which had reduced many of the
former trunks of communication to the condition of
merely secondary lines, while many branch lines, on the
other hand, not included in the turnpike Acts by which
so many roads in the course of last century and the
beginning of this were transferred from the
management of the parishes to the manage-
ment of trustees, had become principal lines
of communication in connexion with the rail-
ways. The railways had subverted the existing
system; many trusts had become insolvent; in some in-
stances the mortgagees and bondholders were collecting
the tolls on their own account; and the necessity had
arisen of coming on the parishes for what might be
called a rate in aid of the highway-rates. In 1841 a
temporary Act was passed, which had been continued by
annual renewal since. Private Acts which would other-
wise have required to be renewed came under the opera-
tion of that measure. But a large part of the law was
in a provisional state; and it had been thought expe-
dient to deal with the whole subject of roads, including
highways and turnpike roads. A highway Bill was in-
troduced last year; one principal objection to which was,
that it created an expensive machinery for the mainte-
nance of highways, and took no notice of turnpike
roads, though these were peculiarly exposed to abuse.
The number of places repairing their own highways was
18,000; the number of miles of highway was 100,000;
and the annual expense of their maintenance was
1,408,7501. There were 1,150 turnpike trusts in En-
gland and Wales, of which the annual charge was
1,378,3521. The total annual expense for highways and
turnpike roads together was, therefore, 2,787,0001. The
bonded debt on turnpike trusts was 6,825,7001.; the
unpaid interestjl,44l,9B3/.; making a total of 6,267,0001.
Such was the unsatisfactory state of things with which
Parliament had to deal. The only question the House
would now have to consider was whether the measure he
proposed was one to which they could assent. At pre-
sent there were two units of taxation ; the parish main-
tained its roads by means of a rate, the turnpike trust by
means of a toll. When the tolls were deficient the charge
was defrayed from a highway-rate. He proposed to
abolish both these districts of taxation, and to take for
the area of taxation the county.—( Hear, hear.) He
would vest the management in a committee of the quarter
sessions, to be selected by the magistrates, and to be
called the County Roads Court. For the more imme-
diate local management, he proposed that the poor-law
unions should be taken as the districts. The county board
would have power to divide the county roads into two
mainacsee.cecsii:anirtrea
y board.
roadsitof and branch roads. The chairman and
theldtiwstarsict brooarodsesdwtohualdt
on
ne
tmembershe2sth oo
ff
classes,
the oMarch, 1850, all turnpikep and highway jurisdiction
'
should cease, and all powers with reference to those
roads should be vested in the county boards and district
boards. From that day all generaland
iallocalpoArtcatnseewo7ualds
be repealed. Another point of great
the payment of the debt owing by turnpike igstsewhich
exceeded 8,000,000/. sterling e
in amout.
to
that the county roads board should take measures
form a county road fund, which should be'derive
from tolls levied on the main roads, and secondly, from
a county rate ; a county rate being substituted-for high-
way rate. Arbitrators would be appointed to estimate
the existing market value of all securities, and the county
board should issue debentures for the amount charged
and secured on the county roads fund. The only clues.
tion would be as to the inequalities which might arise
from the charge being made coincident with the entire
county,aee
ted w
thitohugand
jsooirrilliengof
ctohtionttuierns.pikbeuttr,uustnsiemsisghstombeecoanr.-
rangementof the
devisekitt dpraopgoesnederwalervelaandopbtye.d;vbitiewhotuhlde
impossiblebe to
debt
hesorduelrds bejtsweeausrpedropa(n)sdedful
that s e ct
the
rei tdy given to
e bt
should tbhe
e
paid off in a period of not less than seven or more than
twenty-seven years. By the present Acts no provision
was made for the ultimate extinction of the debts. Ti)
pay 1001. in twenty-one years, allowing 4 par cent, in-
terest, required an annual payment of 71. 2s. ed. To pay
100/. in seven years, allowing 4 per cent. int, rest, re-
quired an annual payment of 16/. 13s. 4d. The dif-
ference, therefore, between extinction in seven sad in
twenty-one years was, therefore; very considerable.
Unless a measure could be framed on the principle he
proposed it would be impossible to legislate on the
subject by any general measure. It would be necessary
to resort to local legislation ; and all matters cou-
nee:ed with the great communications of the country,
except, indeed, the railwaN s, would remain in an un-
satistuctury state.—(Hear;hear.)
Mr. HENLEY was confident the House would agree
with hira in thanking the Hon. Gentleman for the very
clear and lucid statement he -ha.d- made. No ono could

say that the measure now proposed was not comprehen-
sive.—(Flear, hear.) It would be presumptuous for him
to offer an opinion on the measure now; but when the
Hoe. Gentleman proposed to throw the management of
100.000 miles of highway and so many turnpike trusts
on 700 Poor-law unions, it might be questioned how far
the duties of those bodies could be satisfactorily dis-
charged. It was proposed that a sinking fund should
be formed to pay off the debt; but the annual payment
which would be required for twenty-one years to pay
8,000,0001. of debt, would be, in round numbers,
400,000/., equal to about half the present county rates
for England, over and above what they would have to
pay for the maintenance of the roads. That seemed
a very heavy tax to impose just when they were be-
ginning to taste the pleasure of wheat at five shillings
the bushel, and after they had cut down hills and
overcome engineering difficulties at a great expense,
not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of those
who wanted to travel at ten miles an hour.—(Hear.)
A few years ago a measure, cognate with this, was in-
troduced into Parliament. It dealt with bondholders by
the same system of instalment as was proposed by the
Bill now moved for; but the bondholders were almost
unanimous in objecting to be paid off by driblets. One
circumstance ought not to be lost sight of is the consi-
deration of this matter; namely, that the condition of
turnpike-roads was an improving one. Although the
tolls were, in the aggregate, greatly diminished, the ex-
penses had decreased in a more than equal ratio, which
showed that the extra expense had been caused by what
was technically called the through transit, in contradis-
tinction to the local transit. The Bill should obtain his
maturest consideration, and he would support it if its
provisions were just to all parties.
Sir J. PAKINGTON had gathered from the clear
statement of the Hon. Member that the principle of his
measure was to be the consolidation of turnpike trusts,
and the payment of their' debts by means of a sink-
ing fund. That entirely met his idea as to the
manner in which the difficulties connected with the ques-
tion of turnpike trusts might be removed. In 1843,
when Sir James Graham was Secretary for the Home
Department, a Bill was introduced relative to the turn-
pike trusts, and was referred to a Committee, of which he
(Sir J. Packington) was chairman. That Committee
concurred with him in strongly recommending the adop-
tion of the principles now proposed by the Honourable
Under-Secretary for the Home Department. The Hon.
Member for Oxford had omitted to take into considera-
tion that the tolls derived from the turnpike roads would
go in aid of the sinking fund to pay off the debt; but, at
the same time, it could not be dented that the adoption of
the measure would impose a great charge on the county
rates; and, on that account, it could not fail to be viewed
with jealousy.
Mr. BROTHERTON expressed his approbation of
the plan generally.
Mr. SLANEY was of opinion that, under the plan
which had been stated by the Honourable Under-Secre-
tary, the landed interest would eventually gain, because
it would lead to the construction of good roads, skilfully
and economically made.
Mr. SPOONER maintained that the Hon. Member
lor Oxford had not been guilty of any omission in not
referring to the toll derived from the gates as a means
by which any poition of the debt could be liquidated,
because those tolls were avowedly insufficient to pay
even the interest of the debt. He feared that the
boards of guardians would be found altogether incom-
petent to discharge the duties which the Bill would im-
pose upon them. The present was not a time when the
agricultural interest could bear the imposition of a fresh
burden of 8,000,0001.
Captain PECII ELL supposed that the situation
which the Under-Secretary had formerly held under the
P,or-low Commissioners bud suggested to him the idea
of making the boards of guardians the administrators
of the proposed new law; but for his part he disap-
proved of that part of the scheme, and thought that
the guardians had quite work enough upon their hands
already.
Sir. G. STRICKLAND observed, that one objection
to the proposed scheme W 39, that it would cause those
districts is which the turnpike trusts had been well ma-
mged to pay for the mismanagement of others. For
eenturies the highways had been under the management
of parishes, the roads were now in an improvk d state.
end he deuhted the policy of placing them under a new
administration.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
THE DUCHIES OF CORNWALL AND LAN-
CASTER.

Mr. TRELAWNY, on rising to move that it be an
iostruction to the Committee on Woods and Forests, &c.,
to extend theizinquiry to the duchies of Cornwall and
Lancaster, addressed some observations .to the House in
a low tone. He was understood to contend that it was
necessary to adopt measures to check mismanagement
and impiova the revenue. In 1846 the income of the
duchy of Cornwall was 50,3951., out of which only
12,0321. was paid to the Crown, so that the cost must
have been 38,3631.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, the Hon. Gentleman had
stated that he made this motion with the view of show-
ing that the revenues of the Duchies of Lancaster and
Cornwall should be applied to the exigencies of the pub-
lic service and the votes of the House. It was upon that
ground that he (Lord J. Russell) should oppose it.—
(Hear, hear.) The House, when the civil list was
settled, had the whole of the revenues of the Crown be-
fore them, and they had it then in their power, if they
thought fit, to declare that the Crown might receive its
own revenues, but that they would make no settlement
on the Crown except those revenues. It might have
declared that it made that settlement contingent on the
surrender of the revenues of the duchies of Lancaster and
Cornwall. It was competent for Parliament—though
he did not say it would have been expedient—to have
taken that course. But, after having made the present
arrangement, and provided by Act of Parliament
that the Crown should- keep those revenues, he said it
would be totally rnjust to come now and say they
would alter the terms of the contract, because the
economy of the public service required it, and take these
revenues which they had solemnly declared should be
the revenues of the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) Every one
knew that there were sources of revenue which belonged
to former S,)vereigns—there were casual revenues which
belonged to George IV.--the revenue of Hanover, which
belonged to William IV.—which belonged not to the
present Sovereign of these realms. There had been
mismanagement of the revenues of the duchies of Lan-
caster and Cornwall; and, with a view of putting some
check upon it, it was enacted- that accounts should be
periodically submitted to Parliament of the general re-1
ceipts and expenditure of those duchies. That had been
done, and a very great improvement bad been made in
the management of those revenues. The councils of the
duchies also had the power of making such improve-
ments as a great proprietor would make in the manage.
ment of his estate; and the income, as compared with
the expenditure, was every year becoming more im-
proved. That being the case, even supposing there had
been no regular contract with the Crown, as the Com-
mittee could only recommend the correction of abuses
which were already in the course of correction, he did
not see that any benefit would result from referring the
subject to a Committee.
Mr. M. GIBSON said there was something in the na-
ture of public inconvenience in these independent juris-
dictions and principalities in the country, leading as they
did :to litigation and vexation of various kinds. He
doubted whether they were of auy advantage to the
Crown, or to any class of her Majesty's subjects.
The motion was then withdrawn.
QUALIFICATION OF ELECTORS (IRELAND).
Sir W. SOMERVILLE, in rising to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws which regulate the
Qualification and Registration of Parliamentary Voters in
Ireland, said it would be in the recollection of the House
that last session he submitted to the House a measure
on the same subject, and he then stated the principle
and object of it; and as the present Bill differed in no
very material respect as regarded the county qualifica-
tion, it would be unnecessary for him to occupy the
House for any length of time on that subject. The
principle of this measure was simply doing away with
any qualification requiring occupation, and substituting
rating instead. He proposed that the amount of
rating should be as last year, 81., that amount
implying the obligation of paying the poor-rates due
within six months ; but that, instead of their being
merely paid previously to voting, as in the Bill of last year,
they should be paid previously to registration. In the
Bill of last year he proposed to leave the borough fran-
chise as it was now, with this exception, that it did away
with the payment of all rates except poor-rates, which
were to be paid, as in the case of the county franchise,
previous to voting. He proposed in this Bill to adopt
the same principle with respect to the borough franchise
as to the county franchise. He proposed also that there
should be an annual revision and an annual system of
registration, and he should be prepared to show at the
proper time that this measure would not give an undue
number of electors as compared with England.
Mr. STAFFORD said, that by acquiescing in the mo-
tion for leave to bring in this Bill, it must not be sup-
posed that he and other Hon. Members were pledged to
support it either in principle or detail. He must also
say, it was not unworthy of observation that the same
Government which was now urging a suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act for Ireland was propounding a scale
of political franchise for the same people lower than was
enacted in England.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE thought that, instead of confining
the franchise to a rating of 81., it should be extended to
every man who was rated at all.

Lord BERNARD objected to the proposed alteration
of the borough franchise in Ireland. Considering the
many social questions connected with that country which
required attention and adjustment, and the state of the
poor-law in particular, he could not help condemning not
only the general policy of the Government, but also the
introduction of this particular measure.
Mr. GROGAN agreed with the Noble Lord that
when the destitution of the people was considered, to
bring forward a measure like the present was to give
aht
lieon m
them ae
xsoitilson tnetd f
.g
Hea i
ne 0 whenr rating,
could
y asked for bread. The Bill pro-
pos,?d to establish a uniform representation upon a car-
uwldhennont helpouriifotrhminksyinsgtemthaotf
therevalu-
were many persons in Ireland who would thank the Right
Hon. Gentleman very little for putting them on the re-
gistry, which would only place them in a false position
with regard to their landlords on the one hand and
ropier opinion on the other.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said, that Hon. Members oppo-
sit, need not be afraid of the great extension of votes
wider this Biil, the tffect of which would be in towns to
diminish rather than to increase the number of votes.
The privilege of voting would not, he believed, induce
persons to incur the
heshnieft ocetssaarvyoid. amountAt of rate,
same
timewhich
they now tried every
he did not wish to be understood as undervaluing the
pstrtopmit:sied
kerißbilyi- the o Governmentne
excellent
principleinbrinfgroi bringing forward
tthheet
emneu arse ortuhi f
es
would be, to disconnect the franch. ise
the land.
ILeave was giverELsctTo brine
l()Ns D),
On the motion of Sir W. SOMEIWIL4E ItaTe was'