The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-09 00:00:00

BILL.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the (kr •
poration of the city of London, praying that the pro-
perty they possessed in Ireland may be exempted from
the operation of the Bill. The petitioners were cf
opinion that the measure would interfere injuriously
with the interests of lessors and lessees in that country.
The Earl of WICKLOW thought that the principle
of the Bill should be adopted. But if the amendment of
the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Lucan) with re-
spect to altering the compulsory provisions, and making
the powers' of leasing optional, was pressed, it should
have his support.
Lord CAMPBELL thought that after what had just
been said by his Noble Friends with regard to this
measure he would best consult the convenience of their
Lordships by moving the third reading of the Bill at
once. it was provided that no lease should be renewed
unless the agreement entered into between the parties
was duly acted up to. The Noble Esrl (Lucan) had
made a suggestion which he thought Ras a valuable one,
to the effect that in all cases wherein the sum in di.spu;e
was under 50/. the matter should be referred to the
arbitration of the itsdttant barristers of the &strict if
they occuted in the country, and to the recorders it they
occurred in towns. He trusted tlist the Nuble Ear 1
opposite would see no reason why an except;on sreuld be
uattele in favour of the Irish Society more th,.n ary ethtr
party. This Bill bud be-en introduced Loid

bha-neellor, who bestowed comiderable. gair.r 'LT;
was thought but just and reasonable that :n txoeption

should be made in respect to the case or a Leto, nolivi-
vidual who had previously a private .let. ; ewe' d iii re-
spect to his property. Ile hoped the! rho: 13,11 ee mid
now be read a third time, when it -Aar his in., ntr,sii to
propose the insertion of a clause to in e: the eats reierred
to by the Noble Earl opposite.
Lord MONTEAGLE said thA s'neo this Rif had
been repriuted, he perceived an Ista,uirirent ru a so w Lich
he begged to call their attention. Troy
would find that the marginal noie t i tizs see, eau.e,
which was not in the original d rust, ri.tily
from the clause itself. The stor. nal n ,to wa.. tv trts
effect, "no grant required to ti mede under t; is
Act when the owners have Cei.%Pt vii I-r
into estates in fee by a private arr,,rqo writ." l':°
saw no objection to the original p or the
Bill ; but if it was to give a benefit to any cue
person he would not be disposed to support it. Ile would
remind them of the opinion of the Lord Chancellor
upon this subject, when he stated that he would resist
the proposition for making an exception, because it
would affect the very object and principle of the Bill.
The exception made was one, above all others, to which
be looked with the greatest suspicion. He would much
rather make an exception in the case of the Irish
Society. Ile thought that they ought to be very careful
against furnishing any grounds for the opinion that the
Members of that House determined to exempt themselves
from the operation of all such measures, which were sup•
clause
responsibility referred
tpoo,Lseoadrndtdo affect
Bn,EasA pub
licdip :told taker ty
introduced gte.hneerwal
thee
ohlee
House he took the opportunity of remarking that the
of it. When this Bill was first introduced into the
Bill
t o
without h
theout
anyproperty
of one man and gave it to the
other remuneration. It took th 2 property
of the lessor and gave it to the
lessee. The prieciple of
substituting a good tenure for h t e tuiper.ect one that
then existed, was, no doubt, a gt•uci one ; tut they
ought to take care that they did no wrong or injury en
the one party iu their endeavour to confer a benefit upon
the other. The lessor at present receivttl certain fines
on the renewal of these leases, and lied the means or en-
forcing them. They said that they would commute
these flees into a fee-farm rent, but they gevo Lim no
retain whatsoever for the value of the reversion, The
Noble and Learned Lord had admitted that there were
some grounds for his objections, and said that if he would
propose a clause to meet the case allmit d to, he would
be willing to accede to it. That clause was the 6th, as
the Bill stood ; and the compensation proposed was
to be given for the value of the reversicn. He then
found that the Bill did not give compensation to a
certain party who had already obtained a private
Act—Parliament had considered that Bid, and had
utered into an agreement with this particular individual
that he should have the power of converting leasehold
property into fee-simple on certain conditions between
the parties. On the faith of Parliament that individual
had dealt with his property, and until this Bid was
thought of, very considerable oft-Ts were made fer his
land. The moment this Bill was introduced down fell those
offers. So for then a gross breach of a bargain en,ered into
between Parliament and an individual had never been
suggested. They talked of Conareuniera and Socialism,
but in the whole of M. Prudhuit% works he did not
think that they could find any sentiment involving so
great a violetiun of the rights of property a. this lil 1

when originally framed proposed. Unless this clause 1 Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that as there was no question
which he hqd introduced stood, he would say nonecen- before the House, he would move that the House ad-
tent to the ilard reading. journ, which would make a question.—(Laughter.)
Lord BROUGLIAM reminded their Lordships that THE KILRUSII UNION.
this was the last stage of the Bill. As his Noble and Mr. P. SCROPE said he wished to ask of the Govern-
Leareed Friend had proposed to introduce a very im- meat, whether they had read the report of Captain Ken-
portant clause, he hoped he would not press the third nedy, and whether they thought it incumbent on
reading on the present occasion, but would give them them to take any proceedings to put a stop to the
time to consider it. evictions going on in that part of the country?
Lord CAMPBELL was understood to consent to post- The report of the inspector stated that during the last
pone the third reading of the Bill until Monday. twelve months fifteen thousand persons had been driven
Lord STANLEY said he understood that the second from their homes by this system of eviction, and the
reading of the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill was homes of twelve thousand more were in the process of
fixed for Monday next. Now, that was a Bill which being razed to the ground.—(Hear.)
demanded their most serious consideration, both as re• Mr. J. O'CONNELL corroborated the facts stated by
spects its principle and details. Although he thought the Hon. Member, but intimated that he had under-
that the third reading of this Bill should be postponed, stated them. A cowshed in which a woman afflicted
inasmuch as it required much more consideration than it with fever had taken shelter had been destoyed, and a
had as yet received, he hoped it would not be fixed for " wigwam" which a poor man and his family had erected
a day when their attention would be occupied by other was set fire to and pulled down. It really, in such a
important business. He was of opinion that this mea- state of things, behoved the House and the Government
sure should be permissive, and not compulsory; and he to take some step to prevent the continuance of such a
thought it excedingly desirable that the Government horrible state of things.—(Hear, hear.)
should take further time to ascertain whether it was Sir G. GREY was not surprised that what had
possible to adopt the permissive principle, and to amend occurred in the Kilrush Union had attracted the
the Bill in the way suggested. He wished to know attention of the Honourable Gentleman and the House,
whether it was intended to take the Leasehold Tenure since it was distinguished from what had taken
Bill and the Incumbered Estates Bill on Monday, be- place elsewhere. He must, however, remind him
cause he should protest against both being discussed at that last session an Act was passed for preventing
the same sitting, both of them being mersures which re- evictions, but that those who, taking their stand
quired grave consideration and ample discussion. upon legal grounds, were about to evict, that
Lord CAMPBELL said it was his intention to take in every case notice should be given to the
the second reading of the Incumbered Estates Bill on guardians, and that means should be taken to provide
Monday, and, if time permitted, he hoped, considering temporary shelter for those who were evicted. It ex-
the present circumstances of Ireland, the Noble Lord pressly declared that no houses should be pulled down
would not object to their going on with the second Bill. whilst the parties were in them, which provision, even
The Marquis of NORTHAMPTON presented a peti- in Kilrush, he did not gather had been violated. If it
tion from some agricultural society, praying the Govern- had it was in contravention of the law, and the parties
ment to extend its assistance to those societies, to enable were amenable to punishment. Indeed the only remedy
them to exhibit agricultural implements and improve- for such a lamentable state of things was in the hands of
meats. those who were capable and willing to afford employ-
Lord STANHOPE proposed to pestpone the preset- ment to the poor, thus enabling them to maintain
Cation of the petitions of which he had given notice till themselves and to pay their rent. He was prepared
Monday next. to say if the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Scrope)
Lord CAMPBELL said the Bills to which he had thought proper to call for a detailed account of the
referred, being measures of importance, would take pre- number of evictions, the names of the evictors, and the
cede nce. extent of the families of those evicted, that no objection
petitions till would be offered by the Government. He was not pre-
Lord STANHOPE then postponed his
Thursday next. pared to say that the Government might not call for
Their Lordships then adjourned. further powers if they found them necessary; but he
reminded the House that the subject was surrounded
with difficulties.
Sir R. PEEL said he was quite aware of the difficulty
that stood in the way of applying a remedy to the glar-
ing evils complained of, but it was quite possible that
' the indignation of the House of Commons might have
some effect in checking such outrages—(Hear)--for he
must say that he never heard of any country, civilized
' or barbarous, presenting materials for such a statement
as that made by Mr. Kennedy. He asked, therefore,
if the statement made by that gentleman was cor-
rect. It was an official document, presented by the
Executive Government by the order of the Crown
for the consideration of Parliament, for the guidance
of their proceedings ; and that gentleman, too, was
' an officer in her Majesty's service and a man, he
believed, of unquestionable veracity.— (Hear, hear.)
He stated this fact—that in one of the unions at a period
of famine, during one year, 15,000 persons had been
driven from their homes; and he says, after this had been
done in one year, it would he hardly credited that during
the last month 12,000 additional persons had been
driven from their homes. He then proceeds to detail
incidental cases of the persons so evicted. The
inspector stated three facts which appeared to be
rather the creation of a heated imagination than a de-
tail of events occurrie:g in the present age. The inspector
said he went to a ruined house and found it in possession
of a father, a mother and two children, who were about
to be evicted ; the father was a corpse ; the mother
was dying of dysentery, and the two children were lying
asleep upon the corpse of the father. In the second
case he found a family located in a hut which
had been surrounded by muck to drive them
thence by the stt nch ; a hile in the third case
he saw a hut set fire to, though it was still occupied by
miserable beings whose ailments prevented their escap-
-1
1 ing. With these facts before them, he could not
retrain from expressing his conviction that the time
had arrived when some remedy ought to be
applied to the evil. He knew not whether it
was possible to stop the system by law, but he felt that
a strong feeling of indignation on the part of the House
might have some effect in mitigating the sufferings of
these poor wretches.—(Cheers.)
Mr. REYNOLDS remarked that by the returns it
appeared that 160,000 beings had been evicted during
the last three years.
Colonel DUNNE admitted the atrocities that had been
committed, but attributed them all to the working of the
Irish poor-law.
Mr. AUGUTUS STAFFORD said it was unjust
to lock only at one side of the question; there
were landlords in the districts which had been referred
to with whom it was not a question how they were to
obtain the luxuries, comforts, or even decencies cf life,
but how they were to support their existence, for they
were wholly deprived of animal food, and were reduced to
two or three meals of Indian corn a day. The
Government had compelled the Irish landlords, and
he thought wisely, to pay the poor-rates for every
tenant holding under 41., and, since the potato
crops had failed, the tenants were utterly unable
to pay any rent, and the consequence was that
the landlords found themselves not merely without
an estate, but actually in a worse condition, for they
were liable to the heavy rates which the tenants could
not pay. If that fact was not an excuse for the conduct
of the Irish landlords, ho thought it might be considered
as some extenuation of it. Two years ago he had warned
the House not to place any temptation in the way
of the landlords, which it was impossible for human na-
ture to bear, but to make it the interest of the landlord to
improve his estate rather than to eject his tenantry. liis
advice, however, had been entirely disregarded, and
the consequence was that 15,000 tenants had been evicted.
He therefore thought that the House should not
content itself with blaming the Irish landlords, but ought
to share a portion of the blame and responsibility which
had bean cast upon them. The alteration of the area of
taxation, which was at the root of the evil, the Govern-
ment would eventually be obliged to resort to, but if that
measure Was driven off, it might perhaps be unavailing.
Mr. ROCHE declined giving any opinion upon the
hobby of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford), but he
regretted that Hon. Gentleman had come forward to
express their sympathy with the people who had been
evicted, because all the sympathy in the world
would not prevent landlords taking proceedings
to protect themselves and their families from destitution.
He wished especially to call the attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to the system of colonization re-
commended by the Emigration Commissioners.—(Hear.)
It was not the retaining of the present poor-law that
was likely to give any relief to the immediate necessity
nor any permanent removal of the distress which now so
extensively prevailed in Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) He
trusted, therehwe, that her Majesty's Government would
not, neglect those recommendations in the statements of
the Commissioners to which he had directed their at-
tention.
Mr. H. HERBERT said that the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down hid affirmed that the question
which was now before the House had never been fairly
met.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He feared that if' it
had not been fairly met the circumstance was more
owing to the Honourable Gentleman's absence from the
House than from any other cause.—(Hear, hear.) If
the Hon. Gentleman had been in his place as often as
others, both on his own side of the House and on that
which was opposed to it, he (Mr. Herbert)
believed that he would have found no rea-
sonable cause of complaint of inattention to
Irish interests. He had observed, indeed, that when-
ever Irish subjects were before the House that the Hon.
Member had never been in his place—(Hear, hear)—
and he was ashamed to say that whenever Irish ques-
tions w, re before the House Irish Members were among
the last to take a practical interest in them. I
Mr. GRATTAN—The question simply was, how the
evils in Inland had been produced.—(Hear, hear.) It
was not a matter of two, three, or four thousand years, but
how the evils were to be remedied. The whole of the
evils were the natural fruit of British legislation. He
did not object to British connexion, but British
legislation was an evil which appeared irremedi-
able. He saw a wretched party of Irish people
the other day in Ireland, starving and in rage,
who had been sent back to Ireland from
Birmingham and Manchester, whither they had
wandered in search of food and employment.
That was the charity of the Honourable
Member for Manchester, that was the bright hu-
manity of that Hon. Member.—(A laugh.) They took
away the absentee rents, and that was the cause of
much of the distress and want that abounded. It was
all nonsense, the people could not live on the rate
rtuhien I rnifa h Ipr
:learn-di a.otv
Aw
jars.
op a.cssoinngn,eltihastaiitdwiofultdhebye
in aid. He told the House over and over again
wtheen
passed that Bill they might
Ireland, and write upon every house
all round
in
words " poor-house." That had actually it
been
e
verified. It was Irish poverty that was
support-
ing Irish population. The House passed tha law,
and then they followed it up by driving
away all the honourable and high-spirited men from the
country, and now they had nothing :left but famine
and fever. He (Mr. Grattan) bad fled from a
hest of beggars forty-eight hours ago, and he
said for God's sake let him get away, for the very air
was infected with famine and fever. It was not
Irish landlords by charging the evil on that
it could be remedied ; let them strike
at the
root of the evil, and send their 40,000 soldiers to
drive back the absentees. They would not much
longer recruit their army and navy with Irishmen.
He had seen little children, the rising generation
of Ireland, perishing and fading away. He saw the other
day men from Roscommon, Limerick, and Tipperary;
he declared to God he never saw such images of misery.
in his life, and when he sat down to his dinner he said
" take it away and give it to the poor." They
were destroying the best portion of the human mind.
Mr. O'i3(ien was wrong; he rebelled too soon; had he
waited, it must have and would have exploded, and a
real insurrection must have deluged the country. In Ire-
land there were land landlords who did not get 2 lbs.
of meat a week. He implored them to do something to
prevent the horrible state of destitution that now ex-
isted in Ireland.
Mr. LAWLESS, while he considered that the discus-
sion which had taken place would do much good, as it
would make known the amount of misery which pre-
vailed in Ireland, did not think that the system of evic-
tions now so prevalent in Ireland had been caused by
the introduction of the poor-law into that country, as
had been stated, for they did not commence with the
introduction of that measure, but were practised before
it was heard ofi He rose, however, more particularly
to ask a question of the Hon. Baronet the Secretary for
Ireland, in reference to the circulars which had been

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 8.
The SPEAKER toNEW ok the Chair at Four o'clock.
MEMBER.

Mr. DICKSON took the oaths and his seat for Lime-
rick, in the room of Mr. William Smith O'Brien, con-
victed of high treason.

LONDON-AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY.

Mr. BROTHER lON moved that the report from the
Committee on the Lancashire and Yorkshire and London
and North-Western Railway Companies (Transfer of
Interest in the Preston and Wyre Railway Harbour and
Dock, and regulating Management of the Undertaking)
(re-committed) Bill, be considered upon Monday next,
provided amended prints be deliver.,d to the doorkeepers
three clear days previously, and the amended breviate
be !mid upon the table one clear day previously.
Agreed to.

THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time and
passtd:— _ _

The Birmingham Borough Exemption from County
Rates (No. 2) Bill.
Hospital for Consumption Bill.
Truro Turnpike Roads, Penryn and Redworth Turn-
pike Road (G)naolidation of Trusts, Alterations of Tolls,
Formation of New Roads) Bill.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS.

The following reports were considered and agreed to :
Binbrooke Sr. Gabriel and Binbrooke St. Mary Inclo-
sure (Amendment and Extension of Acts, Alteration of
Awards, settling Titles to Lands, &c., and defining
Parish Boundaries) Bill.
Congleton Inciw.ure Act Amendment Bill.
Sheffidd and Tinsley Road (Extension of the Tinsley
and D3ncester Turnpike Road to Sheffield) Bill.
S TOCKTON AND DARLINGTON RAILWAY.

Oa the motion for the third reading of the Stockton
and Daxlington (Cons°lidisticn of Acts Increase of Ca-
pital and Purchase of the Aliildlesberough Dock) Bill,
Mr. HASTIE moved the insertion of a clause relative
to the toil to be taken on the Shelbon Tunnel.
Lord II AR itY VANE said the clause had been unani-
mously rekcted by the Committee.
Mr. B. DENfSON said under these circumstance] it
was a wiste of time to discuss the matter.

Mr. STLTART supported the clause.
Captain HARRIS said the reason the Committee did
not insert the clause was, becatuio they felt they had not
power to do so.

- After some further discussion the amendment was
withdrawn.

The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
LORDS' AMENDMENTS.

The Lords' amrmdtments to the Kirkaldy Harbour,
'Docks, Ferries, and Petty Customs Bill were considered
and agreed to.

PETITIONS.

Mr. BASS presented a petition from Derby praying
for the extension of county court&
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Aberys-
twith in favour of the Clergy Relief Bill.
Mr. PLUMPTRE presented petitions complaining of
agricultural distress.
Mr. 0. DUNCOMBE presented petitions from York-
shire to the same effect.
Mr. B. OSBORNE presented a petition from Surrey,
praying the House to acknowledge the de facto Govern-
ment of Rome.
Mr. COWAN presented a petition from Edinburgh
complaining of the present system of keeping roads and
bridges in Scotland.
Mr. TRELAWNY presented a petition from Mr.
Charles H. Green complaining that ho had been nearly
ruined by church-rates.
Mr. WYLD presented a petition from 2,000 persons
employed in collieries, praying that some measure might
be passed to obtain the better ventilation of mines.
Mr. BANKES presented a petition from the county of
Dorset, agreed to at a large public meeting, complaining
of the present distress of agricultural interest, and
praying for the re-imposition of a protective duty upon
the produce of foreign countries.
SUCCESSION TO PROPERTY IN INDIA.
__

Mr. 11U2sIE gave notice that on the 16th he would call
the attention of the flousa to certain proceedings in
India, by which the law of succession to property there
had been superseded.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE gave notice, when this Bill
cam,' on, that he would move the exclusion of the county
of Egin from it.
NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Mr. MILES moved for a return of all cnrrespondence
which had tiken place between the Committee of
Council of Education and the Committee of the Na-
tional Society upon the subject of the management
claues, subsequent to the last publication of the minutes:
copies of ihe management clauses, as amended: and of
all conditions which are imposed, either upon Roman
CaLholic schools, or..schools of Dissenting bodies, previ-
ously to the advance of any sum of money towards the
buNling of the aforesaid schools by the Committee of
the Privy Council of Education.—Agreed to.
PALACE COURT..

Lord D. STUAR r gave notice of his intention to
ask for leave to introduce a Bill to bring the jurisdic•
tion of the Westmimter Palace Court under the opera-
tion of the County Courts Act.
ACCIDENTS IN COAL MINES.

Mr. HUME said an explosion had taken place at a
coal mine on the sth of this month, by which 24 persons
had been killed; and as such accidents were constantly
t )king place, he wished to know whether the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had taken any measures to ascer-
tain the cause of it ?

Sr G. GREY referred the Hon. Gentleman to the
report which had been laid on the table of the House.
Mr. HUME trusted that some day would be fixed by
the Government for the consideration of this question;
and he gave notice that he should, on Monday, bring
this question before the House, and trusted that the
Government would fix a day for the settlement of the
question which had so long agitated the public mind.
Sir G. GREY said that it was impossible at present for
the Government to take such a subject into consideration,
but no opp,irtunity would be lost in bringing the matter
before the House.

issued under the Poor Relief Bill. In these circulars it
was stated that no one could claim relief under the Act
until they gave up their laud, with the exeeptien of a
quarter of an acre; but that should the landlord refuse
to accept of the property so given up, the families could
in that case claim rlief. Ile wished to know whether
these circulars hael been acted on?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to say that,
so far as he was aware, the circular had been issued under
the authority of the Act, and acted on.
Mr. SLANEY had supported the Government gene.
rally, but he had not great faith in their measures as
regarded Ireland. He rose, however, to ask a single
question. He thought that however much the English
people had already subscribed for the relief of Ireland,
he had no doubt but that were a subscription got up,
many would still be willing to subscribe again, and he
therefore wanted to know from the Secretary for Ireland,
or any one else, whether any Committee had been ap-
pointed fer receiving such subscriptions? He thought
the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Meath, was wrong
in blaming the English Parliament for the evils which
had befallen Ireland, as these is a great measure had
been caused by a dispensation of Providence. He trusted,
however, that from the measure already passed, and
these before the House, a better state of matters would
be brought about.
Mr. SCULLY said there was at present a Committee
of the kind the Hon. Gentleman referedeto in existence
in Dublin, presided over by the Hon. Member for Kil-
dare, and which Committee would be glad to receive
subscriptions from England or any where else. In re-
gard to the statement which the Hon. Member for Sur-
rey had called attention to, as to the evictions at the in-
stance of the Rev. Massy Dawson, he was not in the
House at the time such statement was read; but he un-
derttood the facts stated in reference to the extent of
those evictions were not denied. Having lately come
from Tipperary, he could state as to the extent the
system was carried on there, and until the area of taxa-
tion was narrowed add the landlord made liable for the
support of parties so evicted, such evictions would pro-
ceed and multiply. It was said that those ejected by
the Rev. Gentleman were rogues and vagabonds; but so
far from that being the case, he believed a great many of
them were honest and industrious people.
Mr. DRUMMOND said what he complained of was,
the bringing the private characters of gentlemen before
that House in the manner that the Rev. Gentleman had
been.

have a Committee up stairs. With unions in Clare and
other places paying 18s. 4d. in the pound, it was quite
clear that the landed property of Irefeed was not enough
to support the poverty of Ireland. He thought Ire-
land would have !Nen in a better state if the Poor-law
had not been introduced; fur, although he did not mean
to say that the Poor-law had entirely caused the evils
under which that country was now suffering, he be-
lieved it had greatly aggravated them. He considered
that the Government were bound to take care that relief
was administered in the most economical way possible,
but under the existing system the expenditure had been
most wasteful. One of the burdens by which Irish pro-
perty was oppressed was the repayment of advance; for
the works undertaken during the amine. In 1846 no
less than 4,800,000/. was appropriated to relief works;
but, from a calculation he lied made, he found that, sup-
posing every person employed received 10,1. a day
(which was much above the average, many of the per-
sons employed being women and children, who received
a less amount), and allowing ten per cent. for the ex.
penses of administration, only about 3,730,0001, would
have been expended, thus leaving more than 1,000,0001.
unaccounted for. He said then that if proper care had
been taken in the conduct of the relief works, and in the
distribution of money under the poor-law, the property
of Ireland would not have suffered from the burdens by
which it was now oppressed. He considered that they
ought to make an entire change in the present system,
and to give up all thoughts of administering the poor-law
in Ireland as it was administered in this country.
Mr. OSBORNE said the Secretary for Ireland (Sir
W. Somerville) had opposed the amendment because he
thought it would have the effect of repealing the present
Irish poor-law, but if he (Mr. Osborne) could believe
that it would have that effect, he would support it with
even greater good-will than he was now prepared to do.
—(Hear, hear.) He was not opposed to a poor-law for
Ireland, but he regarded the existing law as a piece of
ill-digested legislation, totally unsuited to the habits of
the people, and most prejudicial to the country. He
considered the present law inefficient for its avowed pur-
poses, inasmuch as it did not support the poor, but
" makes us poor indeed." The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
W. Somerville) had stated that Ireland W2S suffering
from a three years famine, but would that Right Hon.
Gentleman say that, in the event of the famine continu-
ing, as he (Mr. Osborne) feared it would do, the present
poor-law, or, indeed, any poor law, would effectually
meet the destitution which existed? The Right Ho-
nourable Baronet had said that they were bound to
do all in their power to assist Ireland in her pre-
sent situation; but he (Mr. Osborne) maintained that
neither that house nor the Government had done all they
could do to counterbalance the great evils rife in that
country—not, he was ready to admit, from want of dis-
position, but from want of knowledge of the real circum-
stances of the country. The Hon. Member for Water-
ford had endeavoured to show that the increase of crime
in Ireland had been dependent upon the non-working of
the poor-law, and to connect the evictions in that
country with the establishment of the poor-law; but he
(Mr. Osborne) thought that if he could show that a
system was at present existing in Ireland under which
crime had increased, the poor had been neglected, and
agriculture had been debased, and that such a system
was countenanced by that House, the House was bound
to apply an immediate remedy. He believed he would
be able to show them that there was a proportion of the
rental of Ireland amounting to above 1,500,6001.—the
rental of the whole province of Connaught—which was
at present placed under a system that prevented money
from being laid out in improvements; and if he
showed them that land was worse tiled and that
crime was most prevalent where that system existed,
he thought they would have no excuse for not
endeavouring to remsdy these evils. The Committee
now sitting to inquire into the operation of the Irish
poor-law had thought proper also to make an inquiry
into the circumstances of the estates under the manage
went of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and he be-
lieved he could prove that there was an intimate con-
nexion between these estates and the burden of poverty
which had obliged Parliament to pass an amended poor-
law for Ireland. Lie had no wish to undervalue the Bill
which had been brought in this session by the able Seli-
citor-General, for he believed the principle of that Bill
to be good, but he thought it was a delusi en to expect,
that that Bill would have any immediate effect in reliev-
ing the property of Ireland or in setting the people to
work. A very popular theme in that House was abuse
of the Irish proprietors. All eves were open
to the faults of that class, wEilo few hearts
felt fur their misfortunes. Now, he thought it
strange that persons who exhausted a copious
vocabulary of abuse upon Irish landlords should
altogether except the largest proprietors in Ire•
lad— the Court of Chancery. Every gentleman
who had been in Ireland, if he had passed through a
district where unusual poverty was apparent, and asked
to whom the property belonged, would, he had no
doubt, state that he had been told it was " under
the courts," the meaning being that it was under the
management of the Court of Chancery. Only a few
days ago the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R.
Peel) had used these remarkable words:—" All your
measures for drainage, for local improvements, for in-
crease of fisheries, for emigration—all will be ineffectual
unless you can cure those monstrous evils arising out of
the condition of landed property in Chancery. If you
can relieve these estates from the control of Chancery,
aa
you will do more for the advancement of Ireland than by
concurredan at other measuretha that opinion.
oypoiun
icoan. can ado
Theyp
t." w
eHr
ee (lallfr. g Osborne)dorthnne)t
the social regeneration of Ireland did not depend upon a
poor-law, but upon placing the people on the soil and
giving them employ went. This was clearly seen by Sir
E. Siigden, one of the best Lord Chancellors this
country ever sent to Ireland; bat even he was defeated
hi his attempts to rectify the system of the Court 01
Chancery. What was the system pursued in that
court? Property was thrown into Chancery, and the
ownership was vested in the Court, ostensibly for the
benefit of the creditor, but actually to the disadvantage
of the owner awl of the country. The Court appointed
a receiver, who hal nothing to do but receive the rents.
It was not expected that the receiver should have any
knowledge of agriculture, or that he should even visit
the estates. So long as be could screw the greatest
amount of rent out of the tenants, he was qualified for
his office. The tenants were served with notice to pay
their rents to the receiver, who had a poundage of 5
per cent. upon all he collected, and who was not obliged
to account to a Master in Chancery till fifteen months
after the passing of his last accounts. Indeed, the
motto of the receiver was, "Rem; quocunque mode rem."
All references were made to the Master, and the ex-
penses were charged to the estate, to the great detri-
ment of the owner. When leases expired, or tenants
were ejected, everything was referred to the Master, and
a more fraudulent system than that under the courts it
was almost impossible to conceive. The receivers, when
appointed, were unable to lay out money on improve
ments without referring to the Master, and then the
the Master was unable to warrant such expenditure.--
(Bear, hear.) The Honourable Member here men-
tioned, in reference to the management of estates "under
the courts," the particulars of a number of cases, with
the view of showing the abuses which existed under
that system, observing that it was intimately con-
nected with the poor-law, for as long as the estates
remained under the present system of receivership, he
believed that no poor-law could work satisfactorily to
the landlord or to the tenant, In his opinion more than
one sixth of the rental of Ireland was " under the
courts," and the cost of obtaining permission to lay out
money in improvements exceeded the amount of the
money so laid out.—(Hear.) Thus the estates remained
unimproved, and the poor unemployed. The poor-rates
were always high where the estates were under receivers,
and in one district where the system prevailed (we be-
lieve the Hon. Member mentioned Skibbereen), he stated
as a proof of the extreme poverty which had existed,
that GOO deceased persons had been interred without
ly, under this vile and
cinoiffiq
3"Vsyo'st holes.
th e Cl
aonnds leogrudesn were •e re ruined and the te-
un7aohtel
nants were thrown, like dead dogs, coffinless into holes.
The ilon. Member also referred to a return which had
been presented to the House, by which he found that
among the receivers therein mentioned connected with
the Irish Court of Exchequer there was a certain num
ber of farmers, shopkeepers, merchants, and 400 gen

The subject then dropped, and the motion that the
House at its rising do adjourn t.) Monday, was then
agreed to.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House go into
Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.
Sir W. H. BARRON said previous to the House
going into Committee on that Bill, he had to submit to
the House the amendment of which he had given notice,
which was, " That the property at present rated to sup-
port the poor in Ireland is totally inadequate for that
purpose ; that in England there are sixty-seven
millions of property rated to the poor, the population
bring about fifteen millions; whilst in Ireland there
are only thirteen millions of property rated to
the poor, with a (much poorer) population of
about eight millions; showing nearly three times more
property in England per head to support the poor than
in Ireland; that, therefore, it is necessary to provide
further means for support of the poor of Ireland, in
order to remove the extreme pressure which is now
crushing down the rate-payers in that country, and
checking the energies of all employers and capitalists."
It was impossible to apply the same law and expect that
such law would be carried out in Ireland, on the same
principles as it existed in England. They had nume-
rous complaints even here at the amount of poor-rates,
and in Ireland, suffering the distress which it now did,
was it possible that such a law which created so much
dissatisfaction in England, could be at all workable
in Ireland? A great portion of the property in Ireland
had been almost annihilated already by this futile pro-
ject of an Irish poor-law. In 1846 Mr. O'Connell,
who knew Ireland better than any man who ever sat
for it within that House, prophesied that such a law
would reduce Ireland to misery and destitution. His
prophecy hid unfortunately proved but too true, as had
been fully established by the evidence taken before the
Committees of the House of Lords and Commons which
had sat on the L ish poor-laws. It was there proved that
lands had been abandoned, crime had been generated to
an enormous extent, and the whole social framework of
society had been almost stricken down by that law. He
then (voted the evidence of Mr. Burke, Mr. Hamilton,
Mr. De Vere, and Twissilton, before the Poor-law Relief
Committee, showing that the property of Ireland was not
sufficient to maintain the poor of that country, and that
if persevered io it would make the landlords bankrupts,
and ruin the farmers, and that the result of it, as tar
as it operated since the passing of that measure, was
extermination, emigration, and famine of the mast
awful character. He was provided with returns
showing that pauperism in Ireland was rapidly in-
creasing, of which a striking example presented itself
in the number of inmates of the Dungarvon Union
Workhouse, in which district he possessed some pro-
perty, and also in that of Carrick-on-Suir. The poor-law
of the country was literally breaking down, because
there was no money in the country to support the pau-
perism of the country. In many instances the relieving
officers had bean received into the houses as paupers ;
awl frequently the military, when called out for the pur-
pose of enforcing the poor-law at the point of the bayonet,
the officers had subscribed the amount necessary to dis-
charge the claims to the rate against the poor cottiers.
He could see no just reason for refusing to Ireland what
was conceded to England, the richer country, with its vast
and various resources, the advantage of charging upon the
Consolidated Fund the expense of the medical and edto
tional establishments existing under the poor-law. Ire-
land was a purely agricultural country, and had outfoxed
much more than England had by the repeal of the corn-
laws, even to the extent of one-fourth of its beneficial
value. They must look to other sources from whence to
collect the means of administering the poor-law. He
should recommend that for this purpose an immediate
income-tax should bo applied to all lands in Ireland not
at the present moment taxed to the relief of the poor.
The operation of the present system of rating was to
oppress the poorer classes, and allow the richer ones to
escape, contrary to every principle of equity, religion,
and justice. But beyond its tendency to pauperise the
country, and to deprive the solvent part of the popula-
tion of the means of assisting the poor, he would warn
the House that it was positively dangerous, and that un-
less it was speedily checked, they might soon expect to
find its mischievous consequences developed in the still
more aggravated and more general distress of the coun-
try. If Ireland, through the agency of this unjust sys-
tem of legislation, were dragged down into irretrievable
revolution, they might rely upon it that she would not
sink alone, but that she would draw England also into
the gulf in which she was overwhelmed. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving his resolution.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that every Member of
that House could not help feeling the deepest sympathy
for the present unfortunate condition of Ireland, and
therefore the length at which the last Hon. Gentleman
had addressed them, needed no apology whatever. He
had alluded to the great distress of that country in a
manner which its melancholy character no doubt de-
manded, and -which showed the importance of a proper
system of legislation.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the
question might have been more fairly and more correctly
answered by his H.,nourablA Friend (Sir H. Barron)
after he had drawn so lamentable a picture of the social
coalition of Ireland, in particular at the present moment,
when they were in the third year of the most awful—the
most calamitous famine that ever befel any country.
His Honourable Friend had asked, what hid the poor
laws done for Ireland ? But was it not desirable that
the Government should do something to mitigate the
great social and severely- trying evils under which the
people of Ireland were suffering? He thought that they
ought to do something to mitigate those calamities—
(Hear, hear)—and therefore it -was that he was most
anxious that the House should go now into Com-
mittee. He would not particularly allude to the evic-
tions which were taking place in Ireland, and which his
Honourable Friend attributed, in the main, to the
operation of the poor laws. He would not
allude to those evictions with any view of evoking angry
feelings or discussion upon them; but this he might say,
that evictions had taken place in Ireland a long time
back, and that they appeared to him to have been
greatly increased, rot, he would say, so much by the
operations of the poor laws as by the consequences of
the famine that befel the country. His Hon. Friend had
attributed the increase of crime also to the poor law, bu
he (Sir William Somerville) was of opinion that the

crease of crime was more owing to the famine. His
[lon. Friend had advocated an income tax on that

landed property in Ireland which was not rated to the
poor, but he (Sir William Somerville) thought that the
present was not the time best suited to the introduction
of that measure.— (Hear.) lle, therefore, hoped, look •
ing at all the circumstances, and taking the whole ques-
tion of the condition of Ireland into consideration, that

the Hon. Baronet would ,not press his motion to a divi-
sion, and that he would allow the Government to go on;
alleviateand,
dis tr notes
ea effect
condition all thatof thewas p
edesirable r
Ire-
land, lauaanarrydo,natoneontoeawlht
jeleeocuatss.Ntpdo all in their power towards so neces-
sary
on the argument ofa thneo
re contendedlase
piiroeuvisoeulwslyasatdoddreescsidede twhreele
hd not put
the Right Hon.
Col
never meant to do away with House.th I
Hon. Baronet
a correct
w ho interpre-
tationhadthe contrary, his propositionh was Irishflal si n Il
plainly
op
this—that no.o poor-law.
ai aw .d hadt(
3h iie
poor watshsou
pffiansitenyteatro largeiether the property rated to the
ve the poverty of the country.
During
Ireland by private subscriptions sums had been collected in
as every one knew, they proved al'indsuntyli other modes,but,
mortality ensued, and nothing could insufficient; enormous
than that the property rated to the pooermwoare evident
a ?equate to the maintenance of the poor. was in-
authorities on the subject said that a portion of teliC•cinl
re-
lief ought to come from the national resources and
from the resources of Ireland alone. But, if
they made this demand upon Ireland, he hoped they
would give back to that country all that it
ought to have. If they took a large propor-
tion of the Irish resources and applied them to the
1
wants of England, the poverty of Ireland ought upon
every sound principle to be relieved out of the super-
abundance of England. The pov( rty of Ireland had been
caused by the erroneous I,giilation of that House. It
was a fact well known that 64 per cent. of the popula.
tionfpf Ireland WAS employed in agriculture. Everything
unfavourable to the landed interest was a deep injury to
Ireland. The repeal of the corn laws might, perhaps,
have been advantageous to the empire at large, but that
was the very reason why something should be done for
Ireland, for the Irish had lost their monopoly of the
English provision market. He should not go back to the
change of the currency, but be would say that every
change which had taken place since the uni3u had proved
disadvantageous to the trade of Ireland. Again, the co-
lonial trade was a losing trade. lie really thought that,
under all the circumstances of the case, they ought to

, tiemen—the latter term meaning in Ireland Mill
who,had no available way of getting their livelihood.—
(Laughter.) It was no wonder, then, that " under the
courts" the estates and the tenantry were in their pre-
' sent deteriorated condition. Many of the receivers were
of the feminine gender, but they appeared to be better
receivers than those of the male sex, for though living
from the spot, they allowed lcss arrears.—(Laughter.)
Many, also, were clergymen, and of those one lived in
Deventhire; and this was the way in which Irish estates
were managed.—(Hear, hoar.) The Hon. Member also,
as a' proof of the pernicious results of the receivership
system, stated that some of the tenants of Mr. Roe, in
Tipperary, assembled together and entered into a plot
to murder that unfortunate gentleman, upon the
speculation that as his next heir was a minor, the es-
tate would fall under the management of the Court of
Chancery, and they might thereby avoid the punctual
payment of the rtnt. This, then, was a plague-spot
which required to be removed. The present system of
receivership had been denounced no later than last April
by thepresent able Master of the Rolls in Ireland as a dis-
grace to the country, observing that the country never
would prosper until it was removed root and branch,
and the management of the estates placed under some
responsible department. He bad hoped that the Go-
vernment would have granted a Committee upon this
subject of the management of estates " under the
Courts' in Ireland, and he pledged himself that, if such
a Committee were appointed, a plan should be submitted
i fnogt
outth e
a removalbetter
porfotshpeecetv
forils htth%h a tdo,aud
htoolidt
pea-
santry, who were now placed under the horrible control
connected with the present system.—(Elear, hear.)
Mr..IIAPIER hoped he might be allowed to trespass
tenantrydaert adverted
for a short time upon the attention of the House—(Hear,
hear)—with reference to a system
which he felt was
draggisk; down the country—(Hear, hear)—convinced as
and pressing
he was that the subject to which the lion. Member (Mr.
Ire-
land by a simple and rapid
Osborne) had addressed himself, while one of paramount
opportenity of
a thefr: ce t country,et
od ichattel
importance, was one which presented the
doing very great practical good for
process ; and he had to im-
plore the 'Luse not to let this session pass without
adopting alter a short inquiry—only a short one would
be necessary—such a measure as would remedy the
existing grievance.—(flear.) Upwards of 2.000,0001. of
the rental of that country was now under receivers, and
every week was addinc, to the proportion of the pro-
perty ofirdand placed under their hands. By a law
passedia 1835, power was given to a judgment creditor
to obtais the appointment of a receiver. Judgments now
uwnhd
ep:rleio teeerrtay flies
receiver; aunpdc, n now, oca lc,
could
rncbcuhep t by
carcass,
i fastened,lch
toinlveoe)rt.
tenant,merely tutretaiukfliztgetiunpg
we
n dal
so rd
hardlya i d
could be estimated. Instead of this, without any ad-
vance moralthe relation
and
suchla
of public money, and by the mere institution of a
better cmtrol, that portion of Ireland might be an

example to the rest.—(Hear, hoar.) The usual course
of things was t! is year's into -ea being in arrears a
bill was filed by the creditor; after the answer was in
there would come an application for the appointment of
a receiver. The proprietor expecting, if nut certain
ruin, never again to get into the property in any desira-
ble position, would stave off the appointment as well us
he could, and, during that time, would be engaged in
getting in all the rent he could; and the tenants often
haying a feeling of respect for him and his family, and
perhaps pitying his difficulties, would combine with him
so that he would get accruing rents and promissory
notes, end all sorts of arrangements made with him, and
the receiver would come to a property apparently pros-
pering, without rents in arrear; but, in reality, he would
find an embarrassed tenantry—a tenantry more or less
demoralized, and ripe for hostile litigation.—(Hear.)
Let the [louse mark the natural result. Every one was
interested in the due management of property in Ireland,
and the poor-1e w made a man more than ever interested
in the management of his neighbour's property.—
(Hear, hear.) The receiver's business was to collect as
much money as he could. It' " property had its duties"
who was to discharge those duties in regard to all this
property transferred into Chancery? Under the osten-
sible plea of asserting the rights of creditors, in what a
condition these estates were placed!—(Hear, hear.)
When Lord Chancellor Sugden came to Ireland he was
startled at this state of things; no man ever did so much
in the way of introducing sourd reforms into the ad-
ministration of justice—(Hear)—but the rules which
he framed had been more or less evaded.—(Hear.) To
be appointed receiver, a party must give security for two
years'rental,and when the estate was at all large this might
be made a matter of great difficulty; but the plaintiff
had generally some one whom he wished to serve,
or there was some one ready to enter into an un-
derhand agreement with the plaintiff's solicitor;
and a clever solicitorland a passive receiver could easily
contrive to expend the rents in the management of the
estate, and without laying out anything in improvements.
—(Hear, hear.) The receiver had fifteen months to ac-
count in, and altogether it was about three years before
the creditor touched a farthing of his interest.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, surely the rights of creditors ought not to
supersede the primary duties of property—(Hear. hear)
—but this system delayed the creditor, injured at once
the owner and the public, and did good only to those in-
terested in an expensive management of the estate. If a
receiver did anything beyond the mere collection of the
rents, it was liable to be overhau'ed; and there were al-
ways small creditors ready to go before the Master upon
such matters, with the estate liable for costs.—(Hear,
hear.) If so large a portion of the property of the
country was to be taken for the sake of enforcing the
rights of creditors, surely the Court of Chancery ought
to have the powers of an owner, and this property ought
to be managed as under a system of good private
agency.—(l-lear, hear.) An act was passed to encourage
leases by reducing the stamp to is., but it only applied
to leases for a certain term, and every lease under the
Court of Chancery was effectually excluded, nor could
such a lease be obtained at a less cost than 71. The
receiver had to give the two years' security because of
his being allowed to hold ever the money for so long ;
and an important part of' the profits of his office con-
sisted in his turning the money to his private purposes.
—(Hear, hear.) A very experienced officers of the
Rolls' Court was opinion that property under the Court
did not upon an average yield more than two-thirds,
frequently not more than one-half, what it paid under
the owner's hands; and the Master of the Rolls stated
that it appeared by returns that, from 1841 to 1843 (the
amount would be larger if the return were carried later),
an arrear of a quarter of a million of money had arisen
from the bad management of estates by receivers.—
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Napier) trusted, now that the
House had :got into this subject, they would not part
with it until they bad done something a hich would
encourage hope and confidence in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The Honourable Member for Middlesex had
mentioned that there were two classes of receivers, male
and female, and that the properties under the latter
were better mare-teed than the properties under the
former. He (Mr. Napier) imagined that the latter cases
would be found to be chiefly those either of' minors
or lunatics. Those properties we re generally better
manage d than other properties, because the Court of Chan-
cery had much more ample powers in such cases than
in others He thought that what was wanted to remedy
the existing grievances was to give the Court of Chan-
cery larger powers, and to introduce a new machinery
for the purpose of putting those powers into execution.
—(Hear, hear.) From all he had gathered from persons
most conversant with this subject he believed the correct
course to follow would be to appoint a person as master
receiver, whose exclusive attention should be devoted to
this particular subject, and to have under him a num-
ber of district receivers, wholly independent of the par-
ties interested, who should reside in the localities where
the properties were situated, and keep a superintendence
over and check upon the management of the particular
estates. He thought it would be useful also to cause
the district receivers to make a return every week of
the money they had collected; that there should be an
office where the books should be kept open for the in-
spection of all the parties interested; Gni that there
should be half-yearly accounts rendered by the district
receivers to the master receiver, who should also have
power to make inquiries from time to time, so as by
these means to bring the estates as nearly as possible
into the same condition as they would probably be in if
the inheritors were themselves invested with full power
to manage the properties as beneficially as possible.—
(Hear.) He (Mr. Napier) was very averse to encourage
the people to look to the Legislature for everything;
but still he held that, if they could, they were
bound to remedy a great and practical evil like the one
then under consideration; and, for that purpose, he con-
sidered that a short inquiry would be useful. He had
no doubt, from all he had heard on the subject, and from
the conferences he had had with various parties in Ire-
land, that if' a short inquiry were now instituted they
would be c !tabled, before Parliament separated, to pass
a measure which, under God, would greatly ameliorate
the condition of Ireland, and help them to grapple more
successfully with those scenes of misery which, if they
could not prevent, they ought at all events, to do their
best to mitigate.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—I rise for the purpose of' saying
only a few words upon this subject, because I have no
objection to make to the proposal of' the Hon. Member
for an inquiry into this subject.—(Hear, bear.) I
think it is a subject of the highest importance. I think
that the evils which have been so ably pointed out by the
Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne), as well as
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) who
followed him, are such as to make it most desirable to
apply a remedy, so far as we can at least, to the evils
which they have described.—(Hear, hear.) I should
likewise say that the Lord Chancellor of Ire-
land has for some time past paid great attention to
this subject—(Bear, hear)—and that it is certainly no
fault of his that we have not introduced a measure on
the subk ct. He has traced a plan which, if a Com-
mittee be appointed, would, as detailed by him, be a fit
subject for inquiry by them. It is a plan which, while on
the one hand we thought it of great advantage, on the
other seemed to us to be liable to grave objections. It
has, therefore, been under our consideration, with the
-view trying to remedy these objections, and I thiek it
would be a very desirable question to go before a Com-
mittee, because the reasons for and against the plan
could then be properly sifted, and the objections to it, if
possible, removed. The plan suggested by the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland does not materially differ from that
which has been sketched by the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman (Mr. Napier) ; but I can hardly go along with
him in expecting from the appointment of public atd re-
sponsible receivers that we can obtain the benefit which
is obtained by having proprietors residing on their own
properties, and being able to attend to the improvement
of those properties themselves.—([lear, hear.) I rather
think, therefore, that one object of the Committee should
be to inquire whether this system of appointing re-
ceivers to facilitate the charging of properties with debt
has not beau carried too far under the law as it at present
exists.—(hear.) I own I consider myself, that although
it is a principle which appears perfectly just, and which
no doubt is just, that if a person has incurred a debt his
estate should be held liable for it, yet I think the princi-
ple is carried too far, and leads to the injury of all per-
sons living upon the estate, in cons quence of that estate
becomiug the property of the creditor, and at the same
time that creditor not getting the management of the
estate. I think that no advantage that can arise from the
Appointment of a public receiver can compensate for the
disadvantage of not having a proprietor with his hands
free and able to manage his own estate. However, that
is a point which will properly come under the consider-
ation of the Committe, if appointed. I think that al-
though this subject does not immediately belong to the
question before the House, yet it is so intimately con-
nected with it, and the House has received such valuable

information from the Hon. Member for Middlesex and the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin,
that I think there is nothing to regret in the discussion
that has taken phice—(Hear, hear)—and if the Hon.

should be the first parties to disclaim ney connexion
by eleeur the acre referred to r: ore coin-
mitted.—(Cheers.) I assume that the repel' frern which
I quoted is correct; I assume that Captain Kennedy,
the author of that paper, would not make erroneous
statements; and I presume that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would not lay papers upon the tahle of this !louse,
for the guidance and conduct of our legislation, with-
out being convinced that they were not gross exag-
gerations.—(Hear, hear.) Did I make any attack
upon Irish landlords in general ? Did I throw
upon individuals the charges which may be justly
thrown upon legislation? What I said was, that there
were particular instances stated by Captain Kennedy
which were such as that one day ought not to elapse
without our attention being called to them.—(Hear.) It
is very easy to say that the House of Commons is re-
sponsible; but I ask whether the House of Commons,
or any other public body, is responsible for the pardon -
Jar transactions to which I referred? Is the House of
Commons responsible for this?—
" In a cowshed adjoining this wretched cabin I found
Eden Lynch, lying in an almost hopeless stage of dysen-
tery. She Lad been carried thither by her son when
thrown out' of her miserable !edging, and was threat.
ened with momentary expulsion from even this refuge by
the philanthropic owner of it; her only safety rested in
the fears of all but her son to approach her."
Is it the fault of our legislation or of the House of
Commons that a woman is ejected from her home, and,
being attacked with dysentery, takes refuge in a tempo-
raryhut in the neighbourhood, and that the party who
ejected her is about is evict her a second time from the
wretched hovel, and is only prevented from doing so by
the fear of a contagious disease, and that the only hu-
man being who approaches her is her own son, whose
filial affection overcomes his fear of contagion? Is the
House of Commons responsible for that?—(Cheers.)
This House is responsible for bed legislation and its re-
sults; but do net make it responsible for acts of indi-
vidual inhumanity.—(Hear, hear.) Is the House of
Commons responsible for this?—
.„.

" While inspecting a stone breaking depot a few days
since, I observed one of the men take off his remnant of
a pair of shoes and start across the fields; I followed
him with my eye, and at a distance saw the blaze of a fire
in the bog. I sent a boy to inquire the cause of it, and
the man running from his work, and was told that the
house had been levelled the day before; that he had
erected a temporary hut on the lands; and while his wife
and children were gathering shell-fish on the strand, and
he stone-breaking, the bailiff or 'driver' fired it."
What Irish gentlemen ought to say is this—they ought
to say—" This is an individual act—don't judge a whole
class by the act of an individual." That would be a
better, a wiser, a more becoming course to take than to
say that individuals are not responsible.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH—I did not say so.
Sir R. PEEL—You said that I ought to be the last
man to take notice of such things, knowing that our
legislation was responsible.—(Hear, hear.) There is
only one thing more to deepen the colour of this case.
He concludes with this emphatic sentence:—
" I need not enter upon the financial condition of the
union, which the estimates forwarded will sufficiently!
explain. I need only remark that I anticipate a reap ct-
able collection this v: cc k, and for some weeks to come,
but certainly not sufficient to meet more than half the
current expenses of the union for food alone."
It you want anything else to awaken feelings of sym-
pathy with those who are thus suffering, it ought to be
the assurance that they are submitting to it with a for-
bearance and patience which exceeds belief.—(Cheers.)
I did not think, Sir, I had deserved blame, or acted con-
trary to the spirit of justice to Irish proprietors, to say.
on the first day after those papers were laid on the table
of the House, that we should give a proof to Ireland
that such facts shall not be stated in public documents
and be buried in oblivion.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. F. FREZ-TCH denied that he had ever stated in-
dividuals were not responsible for such acts as those.
His objection to the course pursued by the Right Hon.
Baronet vies, that he endeavoured to attach to all Irish
proprietors blame which was attachable solely to those
by whom the acts were committed, but for which the
Right Hon. Baronet's policy was really answerable.
The gallery was then cleared for a division in the
usual way. Immediately after the exclusion of strangers.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL, we understood, addressed the
House, after which the division took place:—
For the motion ••• ... 144
Against it ...
... 30
Majority —ll4
On our return to the gallery we found the House in
Committee on the Bill, and the CHAIRMAN in the act of
putting the question that the preamble be postponed.
EXCLUSION OF STRANGERS.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL immediately rose and said:—
After the specimen of the fairsiess which I experienced
when I was going to express my opinions on the poor-
law, just before the last division, there is but one coursf
left to me—either to insist on the House enforcing jus-
tice to its Members, in the matter of their privileges, or
that they do away with an absurd practice ; end, there
fore, Sir, I see strangers present.—(Loud cries of " Oh,
oh I " and groans hollowed from all parts of the House.)
Mr. BERNAL (Chairman of the Committee)—
Strangers must withdraw.
The galleries were accordingly cleared shortly after
eleven o'clock.

When the reporters had been excluded about half-an
hour, a division took place on the question, as we under-
stood, that the Chairman do report prcgress. The
numbers were—
Ayes
Noes

... 31
Majority
The gallery door having been opened •as usual after
the announcement of the numbers, the reporters entered,
when—
Mr. J. O'CONNELL again noticed the presence of
strangers; and they were ordered to withdraw amidst
loud laughter.
We are indebted to an Hon. Member for the following
report of what took place subsequently to the exclusion
of strangers, the House being at the time in Committee
on the Irish Poor•law Bill :
Clause 1. Mr. MONSELL thought it would be ad-
visable to take a discussion on the maximum rate on the
first clause, and he thought the discussion would be long
and should not go on at so late an hour.
Mr. ADAIR agreed.
Colonel DUNNE thought no progress could be made
that evening.
Mr. STAFFORD had meant yesterday to raise this
question on the words, " it shall not be lawful."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would go on with his objections to-night.
Mr. HERBERT thought otherwise.
Mr. V. SMITH make a remaik.
Mr. CLEMENTS said many Members were opposed
to the maximum.
Mr. ROCHE did not see why, if they were to pro-
ceed, they should not proceed- at once.: When every
one complained of the poor-law it was a waste of time
not to go on.
Sir A. BROOKE thought it would be better to recal
the gallery.—(Langhter.)
Mr. GRATTAN had long been a Member of that
House, and had never known a case when a Member
whose speech tor five minutes was not reported had g,,t
up and deprived the public of a report of what took
place.—(Hear, hear.) He moved the adjournment, in
order to decide this question. When Mr. Windham
was not reported he did not act thus; he proceeded with
his speeches. Why punish him who meant to make a
good speech on that question? Ile confessed he was a
young man and vain and wanted his sp, ech reported.
His lion. Friend might not care. Don't let us make
ourselves ridiculous in the eyes of the country.
Mr. O'CONNELL, in substance, said it was of inp portauce for the sake of others. If the House were
satisfied, he could not help it. He complained of un-
fairness. He had seen messengers in the gallery speak-
ing with the reporters.—(Loud laughter.) It might
be ridiculous, but be would stand up for the right of
Members to be treated fairly. He must deprive his
friend of the pleasure of seeing his speech in print.
Mr. BERNAL put the question in a loud voice in
these word -e It shall not to lawful."—(Leughter.)
Mr. GRATTAN begged pardon; he had
moved to
report progress.

M. BLACKALL proposed to go on without further
waste of time. On matters of such vast importance
they ought to go on without the reporters. Whether it
would be advisable to support a maximum at all was a
most important question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, the principal reason
for the maximum was, it would induce persons to oc-
cupy arid cultivate land, giving greater reason for sup-
port of the poor. Nor was this theoretical. One gen-
tleman gave evidence that he had tried this. He bad
promised his tenants that when the rate came to ss. he
would pay it.
Mr. lIORSMAN said, the same gentleman said that
this would not do without a diminished area of taxation.
Lord JOHN hoped the House would go on.
Lord C. HAMILTON was as anxious as any one to
go on. He thought the Noble Lord should state when
the sultjoct should be renewed, as it aas impossible to
finish it et that late hour.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he should take the Per-
liamentary Oaths Bill first on Monday, and this Bill
second; if not, for Thursday.
Mr. GRATTAN said, as to dividing, he would do
what the HOUSE) liked.
Ayes
31
Noes
.• 163
Mr. BERNAL.—" It shall not• be lawful."—(Loud
laughtes, and cries of " Gallery, gallery.")
A long pause followed.
Mr. STAFFORD thought it unfortunate that this
Committee on Irish Poor-laws should begin at midnight,
when it could not come on again till Monday week, owing
to the arrangement of the Government.
At this moment strangers returned, and, Mr. O'CoN-
NELL having called attention to the fact, the reporters
withdrew.

Gentleman will 'Love at any time for the appointment of
a Committee I will certainly be ready to support the
motion; and my Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-
General, who has introduced some measures in respect
to this subject, will be ready to give every assistance in
his power in framing such measures as the House will
be likely to approve ot. lam of opinion that we ought
to aim not so much at one great measure, but at different
measures, all bearing on the same object, namely, to
rescue Ireland from the evils under which she is now
suffering.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH, after complaining that the question
before the House had been evaded in this discussion, and
that no answer had been given to the allegations con-
tained in the motion of the Hon. Member for Water-
ford, proceeded to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Tamworth had laid great stress upon a
statement relative to certain evictions which were said
to have lately occurred in Ireland. For his own part,
he (Mr. French) doubted whether those evictions had
taken place at all, for it certainly was not the first time
that reports had been spread of evictions by landlords
which had turned out, upon inquiry, to have been a
species of Lynch-law, executed by the people them-
selves, and which the landlords had had nothing to do
with. Besides, even if the reports respecting evic-
tions were true, it was not fair to blame the landlords for
what was more just attributable to legislation; and the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth ought to
have been the last man to take notice of such things,
knowing, as he must, that their legisla ion was responsi-
ble for them.

Mr. STAFFORD resumed.—The Noble Lord said
himself that the evening had not been by any means
lost, as they had had a good debate. He (Mr. Stafford)
had proposed to take the objection to the maximum on
the words "it shall be lawful." If beaten, then they
' meant to fight on the worps " five shillings" in the four-
teenth line, and divide on a subsequent passage. It
must be a subject of great importance to Englishmen to
know whence money was to come from, when tlo
maximum was attained. The Noble Lord said Mr.
Marti❑ had tried this on his estate, promising to pay his
tenants when the maximum was reached. The Premier
was here Mr. Martin, and the Consolidated Fund was his
estate. So that when the maximum was attained, the
Consolidated Fund must be attacked. Whit stimulus
was given to employment under the plan? The assump-
tion would be that the maximum rate would always
be reached. So that, as the occupier was the only pi r
son who could give employment, no stimulus would be
afforded. The farmer would deal with his landlord on

Sir H. PEEL—I cannot silently acquiesce in the un-
sure which has just been cast upon me by the Hon.
Member. I have nothing to regret except it be that I
believe I rather understated than overstated the C4Be.-
(Hear. hear.) I certainly cannot charge myself with
injustice to the parties to whom I referred, for on look-
ing; again at the parers I find that I p:iinted the case in
faint and feeble colours.—(Cheers.) When I have
thought the Irish landlords had had injustice done to
them—and I think they have had injustice done to them
in some respects—l have not been slow to do them jus-
tice—(Hear, hear)—but I must say that Irish gentlemeu

this essumption. We hew) lied experience of this
E t„ier d. Acts in En •I• i ("6 C • 111 cap. lo)
e e TelM.,- •/
formed a precedent. He quoted the preamble.—(Crier
of "Gallery, gallery.") A maximum was established
in this English Act. But then those gentlemen who
hope there is any permanence in such an arranger:ea=
would be disappointed. Another Act is passed to doubier
the arrangement. Then comes the 52d George in,
which abolishes the elan altogether. Agricultural prices
in Ireland would fall, and the analogy with Englad
was thus stronger. The Nob!e Lord said the maximum
was an inducement to invest. Be asked how a cePi-
talist, leaking to English legislation on Irish Poor-lacy
at airy, ( wild think it safe to invest 1001. in Irish pro-
perty, inless their legislation c intained the germs of
better ay-tem? Do you think that a capitalist who br.a.,
seen inch v cissitudes, such fresh burdens ou lend"'
rope, ty, would trust that no furth-er charge would h°
Provo, ed? What would prevent our doubling the mart"
mum? When the maximum is attained, where would
more money come from? You cannot diminish Pau-
pre:m; with'lri,h resources undeveloped, you cannot
say to the tide of Irish pauperism, " Thus far shall you
so and no further." The Bill had no guarantee that the.
maximum would not be exceeded. It wuuld not tell well
for English representatives to let it be understood that
the remainder should come from English resources.
Every statement showed that poverty was increasing'
The expenditure exceeded by far 53. in the pound in the
distressed districts. How were they to proceed ? There
ought to be more openness and plain statement in the
Bill. It would be recollected that the law of settlement
depended on the statement of the pauper and the alloca"
tion of the guardians. The result of the maximum rate
would be to tempt great injustice to electoral divisions.
One electoral division would be overburdened and others
comparatively escape. The question is, would you or
not make the law a stimulus to employment? If tar-fuel
could thus shuffle off their burdens on others, how W°llll
the end—employment—be attained? The Noble Lor'
had refused to state whence the overplus of pauperism
was to be relieved. There would be no security to the
owners of property. The plan would mulct the indurr
trious for the sake of the indolent and wrongful. 1•11,8
could not conceive ho v Parliament—believing in,t
duty of the rich towards the poor—could pass the Bill.
ll
Yet, it would pass. The House had registered the w"
of the Noble Lord throughout. Thus he reluctantly
warned the Noble Lord that the Bill contained a dan'
gerous and fatal principle.
Mr. VERNON SMITH had asked on the second
reading what would be the fund when the maximum
was attained. The Noble Lord said first come on
parish—then on the union—but afterwards there VVSS a
blank. The country was to be as it was before t','.
poor law. In other words, Irish poverty would have to
"
i:
come on English property. Against that the Noble
Lord sets this, that capital would be encouraged to ill"
into Ireland. But what hopes of th,t? What said Mr'
Aubrey de Vere —a very clear witness? The farmer
would take no pains to keep down the maximum. The
rate would jump up to that point at once. Estates would
ebe taken accrdingly, and pauperism would be where It
was. Be (Mr. V. Smith) protested against making"d
laws to tempt capital into Ireland. In England all 1;11)'
party is pledged to support the poor. Why not in ire;
land? Another argument of Mr. De Vere was, til%
the variety of valuations in Ireland would make
still more uncertain what liabilities a farmer would incur'
The measure would not introduce eapital. wa
merely an opinion—a theory—of the Noble Lord's, and
would fail.

e Colonel DUNNE said, the expenditure in several
on
electoral divisions had reached 203. in the pound. 0
said the maximum rate was a good principle. No 111,40
could take land till liabilities were ascertained.
d.
English principle was bad, and ought not to be
(ixteene
In only two cases had tie 54. been exceeded. The 0,1(pc;
rity of otit-t• taxes in Ireland on the farmer was. another
reason. Ni county cess would be paid, unless there"
a maximum.

Lard J. RUSSELL said, these who had argued the
question hal proceed, d on the assumption that were '5.
no call for money on the Consolidated Fund. A /thoug
the western uninns were liable for the whole 40.9., in i"h®
ai
pound incurred, yet, as the rate was not collectA h
good was s.uch u liability ? Did it not cause a p wric,
prevent iniprovemen:? The farmer when told tfist the
rate would only amount to 75., would calcii'llt°
- -

LortY J. RUSSELL next said he could not, conceive
that the farmer would assume that the rates would rut
up to 55., and even aid in making them run up, iao
to get 2s. out of others.. This would be an übterls:
Supposing, for example, the rates were naturally only le.
or 2s. He would have the ordinary interest in keePl'i;
down the rates. The lion. Gentleman had ask,sct weer
they were to come for money after the maximum sae
obtained? Few of the divisions would reach %be sube
%e
There would not be 280 electoral divisions in licit t.O
rate would be exceeded. Things could not be, left nie
their present condition. Rents would fall: the P°"to
could not be relieved at all. If bad, the maximum raad,
was better than doing nothing. He should obj ea; 'd.
vaece out of the Consolidated Fund if the 7s. was ex ceedet.
Ireland's condition would then be only the same :a3 Se°
eoluty
land's. Till of late, 1837, the poor law was only
tary-55. in every electoral division, 2s. on Vie Oil',
would be a great burden to impose so soon. 7,:he e!„.
donee before the Committee was in favcur or the Pl%l.
Mr. Da Vero had evidently thought much on the gle.ros
question, and gave good evidence, but still b is 01"31.ah
was that Mr. De Vero was a little influenced IWl'5.
to find fault with everything connected with glee po
law. He (Lord John) believed this Bill would' be a use
,i
ful auxiliary to the Bill for the sale of in
crimhenr!i
estates. If land was made valueless, what mac, in aW.
to facilitate sales.
Mr. HERBERT would not speak long.— <Cries Of
" Adjourn.") He thought the principle of a rhaxifeute
rate would compensate for the vice of the Bill. Nothing
remedial in the Bill. There would be future calls 013
the Imperial Exchequer. 4s. Id. was the laigast soul
ever collected in the distressed unions. Thus
itraPittal
would never be safe. Some honest districts had Pal.
more than the maximum. Had they stuck to the maxi-
mum, the poor would have died. He only wished ti
notice Mr. Vernon Smith's remark. He thought he ha'
adopted the spirit of English Members on this hilt!'
When there was a danger of an inroad on the consult"
dated fund he exclaimed against any change leaclil
thereto. Only one English Member had agreed ye
Irish Members that the law of Ireland should, as Irish
gentleman wishe, be assimilated the Eng law. le
ADAIR said more than 4s.to Id. had beenlish collectea
in one union. In Clare 6s. 6id. had been collected. 111
Miltown division Bs. had been collected. He supporte
the maximum rate as an exceptional measure to give
confidence to Ireland.
Mr. HERBERT had quoted from a public paper.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT apprehended that t"
Noble Lord would desire to get this Bill through ~s
soon as pesale. Why not fix Monday?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought Bills should bed
pissed at once when the House had arrived at the third
reading. He had agreed with other Members, tot'',
the subject. Besides, there were points in the poorJa_
still requiring amendment. He would rather adhere Iv
the old arrangement.
re'
Committee then reported, and the Speaker - r
sutned to sit again on Monday.
Charitable Trusts on Monday.
The House ac/j-tirned at One o'clock.

RAILWA AtARKETS.
LIVERPOOL, JUNG 8.
csea
STocK ExcnawoE.—The share market was gloomy and depre—
to-day, and few transactions going forward. Towards the close
business prices had a downward tesuencY. The sales sera—LAlD
cashire and Yorkshire, Filtll3, 4% dis.—Bolton, Chester, and
Th I%,tte,
Yorkshire (So. 1), 7—London and North-Western, 127 c.—isi
New Quarters, 48s. 9d. p.—Ditto, Fifths, I,,p.—Midland, Halves,
dis.—South-Eastern and Dover (No. 4), (A—York, Newcastle, an
Berwick (U. N. IL Purchase), 765. 3d. dis.

MANCIIESTER, JUNE 8.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-day were AS fOIIO3VnV...
Clithereo (No. 1), 70—Sheffield, Eighths, Grlinsby DoCkS:'./94),
North Staffordshire, Preference (Canal Shares), 21—Dover (MI6 r.
r.—Leeds, Fifths, 4 11-16 dis.—Caletlonian, Preference. 11 5-
BIRMIN(411AII, TUNE 8. sTocK EXCIIANGE.—The transactions to-any have teen as folioWS'
—London and North-Western, 126—Midland, per cents , Shrewsbury and Birmingham (B), 41. 3a 9d. dis,—PShropshire 1"-- °°
565. 3d. dis.

YORK, JUNE 7.
fol;
STOCK EXCIIANGE.—The transactions to-day have been -1; ou.
lows :—Great Northern, 9%—NorthlLritish. Thirds, 3%—T"'
North Midland, 53;, .

of'
A FACT FOR AVELSMI EN . —At the Board
Guardians, on Saturday, Mr. John, the relieving offceri
stated in answer to a que.,tion from Mr. Booker, that
all the cases of cholera that came under his notice, t'.,B
wire rek ved or buried at the public expense, there
not ono Welsh. They were nkaily all Irish.—The Pri
[ADVEnTISEMENT .]
Chin Cured by Holloway's Ointment and Pills.—
Bober
—A dreadful Abscess under that
Davidson, shoemaker, of Anstruther, had suffered for or°re
.
than five years with a very dreadful abscess under his chil;
during this time lie had been under the care of two surgeong e
Anstruther and one in Edinburgh, without the least prosPilo-.
of a cure. In this miserable condition he began to ufe q° o
way's Ointment and Pills, which, in the short space or this
months, soundly healed the wound ; and he is now enjoYiog
lit
best of health. These fine medicines are admirable renieti4
tor king's evil, wounds of all kinds burns, scalds, pile?, fiisto„,r,
and bearings down. Sold by all 'Druggists, and at Prole
Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, London.

BIRTHS. lad- of
On the Ist inst., at the Priory, near Taunton, the
.111--, ,
J. Winter, Esq., of a daughter.
On the 4th just , at Otnnham, Worcestershire, the vv-
•fe of
the Rev. R. Lawson, of a daughter.
On the 4th inst., at Kensington-park-road, the wife 0f G.
G. Kirby, Esq., of a daughter.
iOn the sth inst , at Arbour-terrace, Commercial-maw ale
wife of the Rey. Richard Parnell, of a daughter. D.
On the sth inst , at the Willows, Upton, Essex, Ell.
H. Fry, of a son.
Oa the Gth inst., at Brook-green, Hammersmith, the Wire
of the Rev. E. Hunting, Td, of a son.
On the 6th inst., IVirs. Frederic Webb, Clapham-road-place,
of a son.

RRIED.
On the 6th inst., at Christchurch, Newgate-street, Tholvv,
as
third son of John Barker, Esq., of Broadwater, Susseic,
Frances, eldest surviving laughter of the late Samuel WV
ward, Esq , of Clapton, Middlesex.
On the 7th inst at St. George's, Bloomsbury, the: Rene.
'
John Philip Gell, M.A. late Warden of Christ's Coll r
Tastnaria, to Elea-or Isabella, only child of Captain
John Franklin, R.N.

DIE.
On the 4th inst., at Frognal,D
Hampstead, aged 82, -lio'
beth, relict of the late J. Harris, Esq.
On the 4th inst., at Leigh-house, Lower-heatb,
youngestllB-
stead, Frances Elizabeth, daughter of the late
•
Holloway, Esq., of East Leigh, Havent, Hants, aged 32 Jae®
a
On the sth in t., at the Lodge, Weymouth, aged 84,
Young, relict of the late W. Young, Esq.
!At Edinburgh, on the sth inst., Amelia Marian, relict !
the late George Robins, Esq., of Kensington-gardens-terrlL
At Hanford, on the 6th inst., Helen, daughter of a
SeyTner, Esq., P.

44i
London : Printed and Published by MURDO YOIM of
—ll2,
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, NO. : of
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the counv
Middlesex, Saturday, June 9, 1849.