The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-10 00:00:00

TEIE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 1836.

were now subject were enormous, and such as no man who
had not a large fortune was able to bear. No man could be
a Member of that House without incurring an expense of
at least 1,0001. a year over and above his ordinary expenses.
serer
ought not td borne. The industrious classes could
be properly represented ftt that House, until men who
understood their interests should be enabled to sit there with-
out ruining themselves by the expense. If the Hon. Member
for Middlesex brought forward a motion to pay the Represen-
tatives of the people, say three guineas a day—( A laugh)—he
;would support Hear, hear, and laughter.) The present
outer which tl.le Hon. Member for Middlesex had brought
forward was so very small that he (Mr. Attwood) could not
!ndure to ste the time of the House occupied with it. If the
Ulancelle,r of the Exchequer was prepared to say that he would
undertake to protect the vested interests of the parties con-
(erned in these resolutions he (Mr. Attwood) would support
Wothen; but if otherwise, he should certainly vote against them.
'lee parties had embarked their lives—(Laughter)—he
?id say they had obtained their situations for life ; and they
light to receive ample compensation. Unless, therefore, he
clad the assurance he required from the Chancellor of the Ex-
quer, he should vote against the motion.
Colonel SIBTHORP, without going into any particular
dlConsideration of the resolutions of the Hon. Member for Mid-
esex, should take the liberty of giving himself full power
a? remunerate the persons interested as much or as little as he
"'Ought proper.—( A-laugh .)
Mr. O'C 0 NNE L L said that on the second resolution being
Put, he should move that the word "ample " be introduced, as
referring to the compensation to be given.
„, House then divided on the first resolution, when the
•itualbers were—
For the resolution
Against it .
Majority —7B
o,Tha returning to the Galley we found,
• ,lbe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressing
il.'loPe that tile Hon Member for Middlesex would not press
Is second resolution, and that the House would not throw
uitzPen the Treasury the unpleasant difficulty of providing for its
cers ; 'but that the House itself would keep in its hands the
uiluent. of its own servants.
`t'4l.` HUME was ready to withdraw the second resolution ;
suei 'gave notice that on Thursday next he should move for a
to
,ect Committee, to inquire into the compensation that ought
84 given to the persons in question, and the best mode of
PPlying that compensation.
The Hon. Member then withdrew his second resolution.

STEAM-BOATS ON THE THAMES.
Alderman WOOD rose, pursuant to notice, to ask leave to
ern,
En, In a Bill for the better regulation of steam-boats nevi-
t"ag the River Thames. It must be known to every Gen-
:e'en who read the public papers the hazard to which life and
"h-ePertY were daily exposed by the racing of steam-vessels on
lb
-e
river, and he should there simply confine himself to asking
'ern), ission to introduce his Bill.
'qr. WARBURTON did not rise to oppose the motion
bringing in the Bill ; but he must say, at the same time,
t7t be thought it would better become the city of London
,vo7. Pay some attention to the crowded state
,of the river,
tith the shipping, and the numerous boats belonging to
ent, which impeded the navigation, so as to make it almost
"Possible for the steam-boats to ply up and down without an
ACeideßt.
eeh. Alderman WOOD said that the observations of the
u• Member were rather unhappily applied, because it was
peeiectly well known that the accidents invariably occurred in
s: lower part of the river, below the shipping, where the
k ena-boats had room to race one against the other. They
ti:evi their own interests better than to hazard a race amongst
e shippin
ti r• P. THOMSON observed that the laws and regula-
sLl erecting the port of London generally much needed re-
ii and alteration.
to Ong
a few words from Sir C. BURRELL, leave was given
'''"ng in the Bill.
xr CABRIOLETS, HACKNEY-COACHES, &c.
farle• Alderman WOOD also obtained leave to bring in a Bill
411 est lue better regulation of hackney-coaches, omnibuses, and
Nage coaches.
;‘,; TAXATION OF THE COUNTRY.
tiv-4.r. ROBINSON rose, in pursuance of a notice be had
ith:4l, to lay upon the table of the House certain resolutions
th Teb he had framed with reference to the general taxation of
thecountry. He should not then go into any discussion upon
eZe tesolutions, but merely moved that they be read and laid
1711 the table, with a view to their bein,* taken into conside-
gn;ell on a future day, when he should bbring them under re-
ar discussion before the House.
be Yie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
rna,‘"ad, no objection to the Resolutions of the Hon. Gentl-
ber„ ueing laid on the table, but he should not agree to theier
er,:g entered on the votes. The Hon. Member might, how-
kkii,r_une his own day for bringing them under consideration,
"e (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would agree to
at day.
toltROB IN SON did not desire to have the resolutions
on the votes, but merely laid on the table. The Hon.
taper then laid his resolutions on the table, but did not
~'l„ry day for bringing them before the House.
I+I47,4FENCE OF PRISONERS BY COUNSEL.
a11n.,.;". %WART moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable
'..'B,e'ners to make a full defence by Counsel.
be .11. t E. WILMOT asked if the present Bill was intended to
.1„ ue same as that one which was rejected by the House of
t la last year?
1).`" EWART said that the present Bill he intended should
t.,`" in every respect the same as the Bill which passed that
House Inst year.
Sir E. WILMOT believed the Bill of last year was car-
ried by a majority of one in that House. But what had Lord
Denman and Lord Brougham said of it ?—( Order, order.
He did not mean to oppose the bringing in of the Bill, for
there there were many clauses of it to which he should give his sup-
port ; but he could not agree to the principle of allowing four
speeches to Counsel in defence of a prisoner, and thus unne-
cessarily occupying so much time of the Court.
Mr. E WART denied that the Bill of last session gave the
privilege of four speeches to Counsel ; the utmost that could
be necessary in most cases of Counsel would be to make two
7 eche. ; and even that would depend upon the course pur-
sued by the prosecuting Counsel. He denied also that the
tile" was only carried by a majority of one. The fact was that
gill was carried by a large majority, and it was only one
ItT;se of it to which the majority of one applied. Aftor the
seal.i having passed that House in the last session, and in the
ar`4oll before it, it surely could not be said that be had not
:w a locus standi. The other House of Parliament had never
Hven
any decision on the Bill, and how therefore, could that
core e be quoted as an argument against it ? It should be re-'
tiot. eted, too, that the Bill had passed the House of Commons,
Withstanding. the opposition of the Attorney-General.
tikl4l; O'CONNELL supposed it was not the intention of
brio `3n. Baronet to divide the House in opposition to the
ems in of the Bill?
tee 11. WILMOT had ne such intention. He had already
mtbat he should not oppose the bringing in of the Bill.
Cont O'CONNELL did not think the time occupied by
,
"'.el in defending a prisoner should be at all considered.
din old principle, that "wretches hung that Jurymen might
e hoped was long since exploded.
After a few inaudible observations from Sir E. K NATC
BULL,
leave was given to bring in the Bill.
H-
THE ARTS.
Mr E WART moved for the appointment of a Select
mremit tee to inquire into the best means of extending a
e.wledge of the arts, and of the principles of design,
tkeeug the people, and to inquire into the constitution, &c., of
hadinatitutions connected with the arts in this country. He
post 'Tamed upon the Committee such a number as he thought
e.likely to ensure a full attendance, for the purpose of
all ceding with the inquiry, and bringing it to a close with
halltlevrable despatch. With this view (as we understood) he
'.!ieleett,d between thirty and forty Gentlemen.
ap R. PEEL (who was scarcely audible) did not think the
attt°llltruent of so large a number was the most likely way to
ttll the object proposed by the Hon. Member.
A; EWART had no objection to reduce it.
feejl_P• 4. PEEL—By reducing the number Gentlemen would
%2.at the responsibility was increased, and would be thus
if likely to give their attendance.
ILI.' ROEBUCK thought the best mode to secure atten-
'would be to require a pledge from each Member.
Qr. WARBURTON did not attend the Committee of last
s,eu- regularly. He hoped his name would be struck off.
ue motion was agreed to, and a Committee appointed.
POOR LAWS FOR IRELAND.
146 R. MUSGRAVE rose to move for leave to bring in a
ine I for the Relief of the Poor of Ireland in certain cases: A
Measure similar to that which he meant now to propose was
tight under the consideration of the House last Session.
iqo understood that there was no objection to it on the part of
I,Zenment. Allusion was made in the Speech from the
Hon
lin to the state of the Irish poor, and he believed that
eot;i;„lVlernbers bad every possible desire to ameliorate their
ReZ.. The Irish Poor Inquiry Commissioners had madesrikw:, in which it was stated that numbers perished daily in
40t from destitution and want. Such being the case, he did
tiputilan• notwithstanding the intimation given by Government
la %bon The ive up his jntention of proposing some measure
lititure Rouse. Bill for which he would now ask for leave to
Ne' ~„.'n ,was drawn up by a gentleman of great legal knowledge
the,.-r`nenee. There could be no harm in introducing this Bill
iiiinotice of the House, whatever might be the intentions of Mi-
Iver;`•• When he introduced this subject last Session, Gentlemen
teat, not generally so well acquainted with it as they were at pre-
te,,,t The Report of the Irish Poor Commissioners was now be-
hi w,t4e House, and no document that was ever laid upon their table
w a greater amount of seffering, misery, and destitution. He
kept not detain the House by reading any extracts from it. The
,auswcal part of the Report was, perhaps, the most important, be-
The „rdedical men had the best-opportunitie of witnessing, in
r „discharge of their professional duties, these
xtent and nature
teriTe distresses and sufferings of the poor. The scenes they de-
natrd were most melancholy and appalling. Indeed the wretched
Irei:l°! the poor could not be unknown to any person residing. in
en_ Id. Ile himself lived in an atmosphere of misery, and, being
,;':!l)elled to witness it daily, he was determined to pursue the sub-
.t. see whether any and what relief could be procured from
alu2inent. Suppose the whole population of Middlesex, of Kent,
ah!: Sussex were at one instant to be deprived of parochial relief,
th.",turned out upon the highways to die by hundreds of starvation,
House would not hesitate a moment to adopt, not merely such
017eleasure as he meant now to propose, but a much more effectual
but The poor of Ireland should not merely receive present relief,
b_ Cane should be taken to secure future employment for able-
,rled labourers. There were very ample means of affording ern-
r2Yrnent there, by instituting a steady and vigorous course of im-
,viTement. The Report of the English Poor Law Commis-
-a,,Ters was highly honourable to their judgment and industry,
the measure founded on it no less honourable to Ministers,
but
doubts were entertained whether a similar system of poor
uwsto that now acted upon in England could be beneficially tendedex-
to Ireland. A poor law here was of long standing ; its
onperation, whether for good or evil, was well known ; but it would
!,.ot be so in Ireland. No
person would propose for that country a
_tystern similar in all respects to that of England. The establish-
ment of workhouses in Ireland would not be a benefit to that coun-

ry, for great numbers of the Irish poor were drawn over here
from the fear of absolute starvation. Some means should also
be devised to give employment 'to able-bodied workmen. It ap-
pears from the evidence on the state of the poor that these per-
sons are actually driven from home by starvation. If these dis-
tressed persons were offered admittance into a workhouse, they
would accept this or any other mode of obtaining food. Before the
experiment of workhouses is tried in Ireland, let the mode of carry-
ing on public works be improved, and let other means be adopted
in order to extend employment for the able-bodied. Last session
I ventured to introduce a Bill, by which public works would be ex-
tended, and this Session I have given notice for renewing that
measure. The best practical engineers assert that ample employ-
ment might be afforded by a proper extension of such works.
Let something be done to improve the distribution of landed
property of Ireland. It is a fact that the occupiers of the soil, those
who are tobe considered as the people of Ireland, are prevented by the
nature of their tenures from effecting permanent improvements.
And this, after all, is the greatest evil of Ireland. In this respect
Ireland differs from every country where the people are in a state
of comfort and happiness. By the Bill before the House, it is in-
tended to provide relief for the helpless, who are unable to work—
and on extraordinary occasions, for other classes also, by levying a
rate in aid of subscriptions on such occasions. By the first clause,
the duty of executing the Act primarily devolves on a Committee, who
have power at discretion, to afford relief. This Committee is to
consist of ratepayers, who possess a certain qualification described
in the Bill. IL has been thought necessary to attach a qualification,
because, if all ratepayers were allowed to vote, many of the poorest
class would have to decide on cases of their own relations who ap-
plied for relief. Seven Committee-men are required to constitute
a Committee. At their first meeting, the Committee is to divide
the parish into sections, and is to appoint a sub-committee of ma-
nagement, assigning to ea.th sub-committee-man the superintend-
ence of one or more sections. In the appointment of the sub-com-
mittee a continued rotation is to be observed. One of the sub-
committee is to be guardian, and another to be deputy guarditn Of
the poor, filling the office of Chairman at each meeting of the sub-
committee. As I mentioned, on a former occasion, the appoint-
ment of a superintendent for each section of a parish was found to
answer admirably at Glasgow, as described by Dr. Chalmers in his
evidence. This regulation was also successfully adopted in Ireland
during the prevalence of the cholera. The sub-committee will
have to draw up a list of the helpless poor, confining the list
under that denomination, to aged persons above sixty, orphans under
fourteen, the maimed, sick, blind, deaf and dumb, lunatics and idiots.
And in this roll are to be mentioned the age, birthplace, and other
particulars relating to each person named therein, together with the
amount of allowance required in each case. This statement and the
roll of the poor is then to be laid before the General Committee for
their decision. The statement of the determination of the General
Committee will then go before the Grand Jury of the county, by
whom it may be altered, on appeal. When a valuation has taken
place, every party having paid rates directly or indirectly, may, out
of the rent next payable by hiM, make a deduction not exceeding
three-fourths of such poundage on the annual rent thus payable as
shall have been used for ascertaining the rates. If the Treasurer of
the county states in his warrant that a poundage of is. is to be
levied, as rates, on the annual value—the occupier paying Is. per
pound, may deduct from his landlord's rent 9d. per pound of rent.
This clause is so drawn as to make every person having an interest
in land pay according to the amount of that interest. On occasions
of extraordinary distress, such as prevailed last year in Mayo, it is
proposed to levy a rate equal to the amount of private subscriptions
raised for the relief of the able-bodied. By another clause power
is also given to the General Committee to assist mendicity institu-
tions, by levying rates on the parish. The Bill also proposes to give
the Lord Lieutenant authority to unite parishes, on memorial being
presented to him for that purpose. I have thus briefly explained to
the House the principal clauses of the Bill. Many blembeis may
wish to proceed farther, and to extend relief to other classes, by a
compulsory law. I beg these Hon. Members to consider that the ,
investigation which must take place under this Bill will prove bene-
ficial not only to the helpless poor, but also to other distressed per-
sons. I now have to move that leave be given to bring in " a Bill
to authorise the Relief of the Poor of Ireland in certain cases."

Mr. S. O'BRIEN had given notice of a motion on the same
subject. Ithad always appeared to him that it was the duty of the
Government to originate a measure of relief for the Irish poor,
having first received and well considered any suggestions made
upon the subject by those who had the means of forming a judg-
ment on it. He had given the greatest attention to it since 1832,
and he hoped he would be permitted to submit a Bill he had pre-
pared to that House in the course of next week.
Mr. J. GRATTAN thought it would be better if his Hon.
Friends did not press their Bills, unless they saw a disinclination
en the part of the Government to submit any measure upon the
subject.
Mr. SHAW could see no use in bringing Bills of this kind be-
fore the House if Ministers had determined to take up the subject.
It would be highly desirable that some of his Majesty's Ministers
should come furward and state, at least generally, what was the
nature of the measure they meant to propose. He would, there-
fore, put that question to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the question
put by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman was a very strange
one. The view entertained by Ministers was already communi-
cated in the Speech from the Throne. How was it possible that
Ministers could now announce the nature of a measure which must
be founded upon reports of a Committee which were not yet re-
ceived ?—cHear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL thought the object of Ministers had already
been made sufficiently distinct. It could do no harm to have Bills
of this kind introduced, in which different modes of relief were
suggested by Gentlemen who had given their attention to the sub-
ject. Some information might be obtained in this way that would
prove useful in the preparation of any future measure. The time
was come for introducing poor laws into Ireland. There was a
machinery of centralisation in the English poor law, as amended,
which worked well. The tribunal composed of Commissioners was
a great benefit, and in any plan that may be proposed for Ireland a
similar tribunal would in his opinion be desirable. It would tend
greatly to prevent those local prejudices and party feelings which
might arise in parishes and districts when any measure of relief
began for the first time to come into operation. The sooner the
subject was taken up the better. Any measure of relief ought to
embrace some provision to facilitate emigration. To give relief to
able-bodied labourers from the poor fund would do far more injury
than good. One mode of relief might be found in the allocation
of unimproved lands. Some caution, however, would be necessary
in the application of such a remedy, because, if carried too far, it
would have the effect of increasing the number of poor in succeed-
ing generations. When Ireland was in full possession of equal
rights he had no doubt that a general amelioration of the condition
of all classes in that country would, before long, manifest itself,
and that much of the distress which now called for a measure of this
kind would disappear. It was his wish that relief should be pro-
vided for the actually destitute, without at all interfering with the
wages of labour, a practice that had been found so injurious.
An HoN. MEMBER on the Oppositlon benches made an obser-
vation that was quite inaudible.
Mr. SCARLETT was surprised that Government was not now
prepared to declare what it was they meant to do. If their plan
was to be founded upon the 43d of Queen Elizabeth they ought to
proceed with great caution. All the Acts which had been passed
since were merely expedients to patch up that one. It seemed to
him that what Ministers had in contemplation was merely a pro-
ject to injure the landlords of Ireland. (" Oh, oh," from the M-
inisterial benches.) If it were not so, no man would be more ready
than himself to concur in a measure of relief.

Mr. WYSE denied that there was any project of the kind al-
luded to. He did not suppose that it was intended to make the
43d of Elizabeth the basis of any measure of relief for the poor of
Ireland. Government acted wisely in receiving suggestions upon
the subject from year to year, before they proposed any Bill them-
selves. With this view he moved for leave to bring in a Bill last
Session, and he should make a similar motion this session, solely
with the view of affording to Government any aid he could in the
preparation of a general measure
Mr. S. FRENCH was friendly to a poor law for Ireland, and
would support any measure that might appear to him effectual for
the relief of the poor. He hoped any plan that should be proposed
would be submitted to the consideration of Irish gentlemen, without
reference to politics.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
On the motion of Mr. F. BUXTON, the Committee of last ses-
sion on the Aborigines was renewed, and several returns connected
with the slave trade ordered.

, Mr. HUME, notwithstanding what had fallen from the 'bd.,:
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, felt it his duty to take the
sense of the House to a certain extent on the subject, as to which
he had given notice of a motion, as it was one of considerable im-
portance. Since the time when the subject was last before the
House many persons had become convinced that the situation which
had been selected by the Committee was a bad one for many rea-
sons, from its being too local, not having the benefit of openness
and proximity to the general business of the metropolis. One ob-
jection to the site, more particularly, which he (Mr. Hume) had
pressed upon the Committee, was, that, while in such a climate as
that of England, where during a considerable portion of the day and
of the year the atmosphere is dark and murky, it was most desira-
ble that those actively engaged in the most importance business of
the country should have the benefit of free air and open space—
the situation selected by the Committoe was, on the contrary, so
fixed between Westminster Abbey on the one hand, and I,st-
minster Hall on the other, as to preclude those necessary ad-
vantages, and deprived Honourable Members of an hour or an
hour and a half of 'daylight. The proximity of Westminster
Hall might be very convenient to gentlemen of the legal
profession who were at the same time Members of the House r
but when the small number of Honourable Members so
situated was compared with the vast majority differently placed the
reason became as nothing. He (Mr. Hume) was in fact for the
removal of the Courts of Law from Westminster Hall to Lincoln's
Inn-fields. A place so in the neighbourhood of all the lawyers as
that it would enable them to feed altogether—(A laugh)—and one
which was, moreover, central to the whole metropolis. With re-
spect to the situation he (Mr. Hume) would propose as that of the
new houses, he certainly thought St. James's Park a much better
one than that which seemed to have been fixed on by the Commit-
tee. There the atmosphere was not confined, and the situation
was open. Indeed, there could scarcely be any comparison between
St. James's Palace or Marlborough House, and the proposed con-
fined spot between Westminster Hall and the Abbey ; and that the
fOrmer would be more convenient to five-sixths of the Members of
that House. Another situation, however, he thought would
have been still better, if the National Gallery had not been
commenced ; but there was still room at the back of that build-
ing, if the barracks were removed, and they were already com-
plained of by most of the-neighbouring inhabitants.—(Hear.) At
all events there were still two other situations between which a
choice could be made, both of which he (Mr. Hume) thought
better than that chosen by the Committee ; and as to the objec-
tion, that trouble and expense had already been gone to, he
thought that the employment of the artists was rather a benefit to
them than otherwise; and that the 3,0001. (which he conceived
to be the utmost expense that had been gone to) was not worth
considering in comparison with the greater objects he had in view.
Time and experience too would be gained by giving room for deli-
beration on the subject. The only objections to his proposal
which bore to him the semblance even of validity were that the
change of the situation of the Houses from that which they at
present occupied would be uprooting the historical recollections of
many centuries, and that which he had already referred to—the
necessity for the proximity of the Courts of Law. He had already
said what he thought as to the latter objection, and as to the former
he feared that the late fire had gone tar to obliterate most of the
historical recollections. He therefore begged to move that it be an
instruction to the Select Committee that they do consider the si-
tuation to be fixed on for the new Houses of Parliament.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to entreat
the House to resist the proposition of his Hon. Friend, and he
would state in a very few words the facts on which he founded his
objection to the motion, and the argument which he should offer
in support of his objection. The Committee was appointed speci-
fically to consider the whole of the question. There had been no
complaint against them of want of diligence or of due care and
attention in the performance of the task assigned to them, and they
had expressly negatived this very proposition.—( Hear, hear.) His
Hon. Friend, however, had said that he regretted not having taken
the sense of the House on the subject when left in a minority of
two ; but the fact was, that the sense of the House had already
been taken on the question, and that lin a manner more express
than even the assent to a Report ; for when the estimates were
under discussion last Session, he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) had been especially urged to draw money for the purposes of
the new buildings, which he accordingly did, and the Hon. Member
for Middlesex, on that occasion, when it was mooted in the House
whether or not certain land in Abingdon-street should be pur-
chased, himself said that the expense ought not to interfere with so
important an object, and thus contributed his approval to the very
measure which it was now his object to oppose. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) really did not see any reason why the
HouSe should again come to a decision on this subject, and alter the
whole of the arrangements, on the basis of which the House of
Lords as well as that House had procooded, especially as there was
no certainty that afterwards some other Hon. Member, or even,
perhaps, the Hon. Member for Middlesex himself, might not come
down to the House to propose another alteration.
Sir F. POLLOCK observed, with reference to what the Hon.
Member for Middlesex had said on the subject of the convenience
of the Barristers at Westminster Hall, that it was a matter of entire
indifference to them where the House of Commons was situated,
though he for one would never allow any personal convenience of
his own to interfere with that of the public. There were many
reasons, however, why it was desirable that the Law Courts should
be near the two Houses, but those had more reference to the con-
venience of suitors and attorneys than to that of Barristers, which
was entirely out of the question.
Mr. KEARSLEY said, that after what had fallen from the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, it must be evident to every one that the
observations of the Hon. Member were nothing but humbug—sheer
humbug.—(Much laughter, and cries of " Hear, hear.") With
the pretensions of that Hon. Member on all occasions to a peculiar
desire for economy he (Mr. Kearsley ) must say that when the Hon.
Member talked about the loss of 3,0001. being a matter of no im-
portance he certainly was not acting an honest part.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh," " Chair, chair," and renewed laughter.)
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member must be aware that
it was not right for him to apply to any other Hon. Member the
terms of which he had just made use.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. KEARSLEY—I cannot speak differently from what I
think.—( Roars of laughter from all parts of the House, in which
Mr. Hume joined.)
The SPEAKER again interposed, and said—The language
made use of by the Hon. Member is not such as ought to be heard
within the walls of this House.—(Hear, hear.) I feel that it is
my duty to interpose, and submit it to the judgment of the House,
whether or not such language should be allowed.—(Hear, hear. )
The Hon. Member has imputed dishonesty to another Hon. Mem-
ber, and that certainly is not a fit term to be used here.__( Cheers. )
Mr. KEARSLEY_I trust I shall be permitted to say that I
think that if I had acted as the Hon. Member for Middlesex has
done, I should not have been acting an honest part.—( Renewed
laughter, and cries of " Chair, chair.")
The SPEAKER—Am I to understand that the Hon. Member
means to retract the expression of which he has made use ?
Mr. KEARSLEY again rose and said—" I cannot say what I
don't think," and was going on when he was interrupted by re-
newed shouts of laughter, and calls for the interposition of the
Speaker.
11.1 r. T. ATTWOOD here rose, and observed that if the Hon.
Member had used unparlinmentary language he (Mr. Attwood)
was quite sure that he had meant nothing towards the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex personally, although the word " unfair" might
have been used as applied to the course of conduct pursued without
any infringement on the rules of Parliamentary procedure. The
phrase used by the Hon. Member was certainly one not fit for a
society of Gentlemen, and he hoped that an explanation would be
afforded.—( Hear. )
Mr. KEARSLEY—My remark was intended to apply to the
argument of the Hon. Member, and not to himself.—(Cheers and
laughter.) I know very well the point I wanted to come at, and
did not want the Birmingham bridge to carry me safe over.—( Roars
of laughter. )
Mr. ATT WOOD was very happy that the discussion had passed
off in this pleasant and convivial manner. With respect to the sub-
ject under discussion, he (Mr. Attwood) said that he was opposed
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, because he
thought that the historical associations of six hundred years ought
not to be disregarded in the choice of a situation for the new Houses
of Parliament, not that any unnecessary departure should be made
from a spot so intimately connected with the liberties of the people
of England as the present.
Earl GROSVENOR said, that however favourable he was to
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he must admit
, that it came rather too late. There could, he thought, be no deny-
ing that a more central position might be found for the new Houses
of Parliament than the present. The free circulation of air was a
matter of the utmost importance in a city.like this, and nothing
could offer greater obstruction to the circulation of air than erecting
a lofty building on the banks of a river such as the Thames, in a
neighbourhood so choked up with houses as that part of Westmin-
ster was. The original intention was that Westminster Abbey
should open to the River ;and for his part he should prefer seeing
that done, with the removal of St. Margaret's Church, which was
almost an eye-sore, and the restoration of St. Stephen's Chapel, to
having the new Houses of Parliament erected on the present site.
Another situation might easily be chosen for the purpose, which
would not be liable to the same objection, and he must say that they
should not be deterred from placing a building intended for national
purposes in a position which would be free from all defects, merely
because of the trifling additional outlay of money which it might
entail.
Sir R. PEEL thought that, without some very satisfactory and
conclusive reason were shown for it, the House should not adopt
any such proposition as that of the Hon. Member for Middlesex.
They were bound to adhere to the decision to which they had come,
having in the last Session referred this matter to a roper tribunal,
and that tribunal having by a large majoritydetermmed on adhering
to the existing site. The plans which had been received were
founded upon the site intended for the newbuildings, and if a change
were made in this respect, it was clear that new plans would be in-
dispensable, and that additional delay would be the consequence.
He did not think the Hon. Member for Middlesex had adduced any
very cogent reason why they should depart from that which was
the consistent course ; at all events, the Hon. Gentleman had not
convinced him that a change of site would be desirable.—( Hear,
hear.) He was not in the habit of cheering the Hon. Member for
Birmingham very often, but he could not at the same time help
cheering a sentiment which he had expressed in the course of his
observations that night. If the matter was to be balanced by a re-
ference to the past and the future, certainly historical recollections
ought to have some weight.—(Hear, hear.) It was not a mere
difference of prejudices, but he thought it would always be a satis-
faction to the feelings of the English people, to know the site of the
ancient Palace of Westminster, and where the British Parliament had
for so long a time sat. Let them just consider the weight of the
arguments of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman said
that by erecting a large building in the present situation they would
intercept the air, and lose an hour's light every evening ; but what
was his proposition? Why, that the new Houses of Parliament
should be placed in the rear of the National Gallery, with that build-
ing to the south.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed to benefit them in point of air ; but he ( Sir R.
Peel) must be permitted to doubt whether placing them in the
mews, near the National Gallery, would be any improvement.--
( Hear, hear, and loud laughter.) But the Hon. Gentleman com-
plained that the present situation was unhealthy. Had it ever
been found so ? He did not think it had ; and what was more, he
did.not believe that the history of the plague, the cholera, or any
other of those contagious diseases which had visited the metro-
polis furnished any authority for supposing that the banks of the
river were unhealthy.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the
currents of air induced by the tide were healthy, and if so, why
should not Members of Parliament have the advantage of it "?
Another objection was, that the Houses of Parliament were too
remote from the residences of the Members; but, instead
of regarding that as an objection, he considered it as an
advantage, inasmuch as it not only insured them exercise,
but the House an attendance, which, in all probability,
could i: o fee obtained if their residences were at hand. There was
some advantage in having the Houses of Parliament near Charing-
cross, a spot described by Dr. Johnson " As the great confluence
of human existence ;" but he doubted whether it would be advisable
to remove them to any of the leading channels of public communi-
cation. The present site was, in his opinion, preferable to the
centre of one of those channels ; and, that being his opinion, he
thought they should not disturb the investment of property which
had already
.taken place for this purpose. He also considered it of
the utmost importance that the Courts of Law should be contiguous
• to the Houses of Parliament ; for otherwise it would be impossi-

hie to get the assistance of leading Barristers in Election Com-
mittees, and as he did not think the Hon. 'Member for Middlesex
had made out a case, he felt it his duty to vote against the proposi-
tion which he had made to the House.

=Mr. HAWES would be sorry to have the site changed, if it
could possibly be avoided. He suggested that the whole of the
plans given in should be exhibited to the public, and said that such
a course would not only be satisfactory to the artists themselves, but
to the Government, as well as the public. The number of the
plans received was 97, and had eabt 25,0001. The public had,
therefore, a clear right to an inspection of them.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that a new site should be chosen
for the new buildings, as the proximity of the present to the river,
and the gas manufactories in the neighbourhood, rendered it par-
ticularly unhealthy. For his part he did not think past Par-
liaments had left any recollections that could be endearing to
the people.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") This was his own opinion
—(Laughter)--and he should therefore vote for the motion of his
Hon. Friend.

Mr. EWART was not at all convinced by the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet opposite that the present site was preferable to any other
they could select.
The House then divided, when there appeared--

For Mr. Hume's motion 42
Against it

Majority
On the motion of Sir R. INGLIS, the Library Committee was
re-appointed, and the annual returns under the 10th Geo. IV.—
( Roman Catholic Relief Act. )—Ordered.
Mr. R. GORDON moved for leave to introduce a Bill for vest-
ing the office of Constable of St. Briavel's in the First Commis-
sioner of Woods and Forests, and for vesting the office of Keeper of
the Forest of Dean, in the county of Gloucester, in the Commis-
sioners of Woods and Forests.—Motion granted.
Mr. BROTHERTON rose to move the adjournment of the
House, but was requested by Col. Sibthorp to allow him to pro-
ceed with a motion the notice of which was upon the list.
Mr. BROTHERTON having acquiesced,
Col. SIBTHORP moved that, there be laid before the House
" a return of all the Commissions that have been issued, the num-
ber and names of Commissioners, secretaries, clerks, and other
persons attached to each, and, if employed individually in more
than one Commission, in what number so employed ; the places
and periods of official duties and sittings, the number of days and
hours of each sitting since the commencement of duty ; the sala-
ries and allowances of each officer or person, the expenses already
incurred, and the amount paid already on each Commission ; the
return to commence from November, 1830, and extend to the pre-
sent period."
Mr. F. BARING said th tt there was no objection to the mo-
tion so far as it was possible to procure the information. But he
would suggest to the Hon. and Gallant Member to add, after the
number of days and hours of each sitting, the words " as far as it
is possible to ascertain the same," or words to that effect.
Colonel SIBTHORP had no objection to the insertion of the
words proposed. The reason he had wished to introduce the word
" hours " into the motion, was that those Gentlemen were called
to perform very important duties, and at a very considerable ex-
pense to the public. It was not his wish to impeach the integrity
of those Gentlemen, but when he found it stated that the hours for
the discharge of their duties were from ten until four, and when
they had no knowledge of how the remaining part of their time
was disposed of, he certainly was of opinion that, so far as referred
to the portion of their time devoted to their official duties, the pub-
lic had a perfect right to be informed, as far as it was possible to
ascertain correctly, whether those Gentlemen had discharged those
important and expensive duties with fidelity and integrity. He sup-
posed he must be satisfied with any return in the power of Govern-
ment to pi-Ake, but certainly no return would be satisfactory to
him which diant afford information on this point.
The motion wis agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a quarter-past twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY SUMMARY.

In the LOADS' yesterday, the Marquis of Londonderry put off,
till Friday, the motion relating to Spanish affairs of which he had
given notice. The Commons then had a conference with the Lords,
on the subject of providing for the more effectual promulgation of the
statutes. On the motion of the Marquis of Salisbury, a Return of
the names and residences of those gentlemen who have been inserted
in different Commissions of the Peace, &c., after some conversati*
on the subject, was ordered. A list of Commissioners, &c.,
pointed since January 1, 1830, was also ordered. Lord Ashbur-
ton, in presenting a petition, which complained of a particular
grievance arising out of the operation of the new Poor Law, offered
his testimony to the beneficial working of the Act generally.
In the COMMONS' were presented petitions by Mr. Bucking-
ham for leave to bring in a Bill for Compensation from the East
India Company, for injuries sustained; from the merchants of Hull
for a revision of the Timber Duties; from an a snciation in Leices-
tershire for agricultural relief. Mr. D. W. Harvey gave notice
that, on Friday next„ he should move for a Committee, to whom
should be referred ill petitions for Bills for Railways,. terminating
within, seven miles of the Royal Exchange, to report whether the
best line had been named with reference to public convenience and
safety, and with due regard to private property. Lord John Rus-
sell then moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the Commutation pf
Tithes. The leading outlines of this measure will be seen in the
speech of the Noble Mover. In this place it will be sufficient to
state, that to carry the Commutation into effect, it is proposed to
appoint Commissioners, who again are to nominate sub-commis-
sioners, to act in different parts of the country. The amount Of tithe
commutation, as we understood,is not to continue tobe paid as no w,but
to be in the nature of a rent charge, and to be payable by the landlord.
After a short discussion, which indicated a favourable reception
(excepting only Sir R. Inglis's opposition) leave was given to bring
in the Bill. Lord John Russell moved for leave to bring in a Bill
for the Registration of Aliens. Dr. Bowring, Mr. Hume, and
other Hon. Members were of opinion that registration was useless,
and might be dispensed with altogether. Mr. O'Connell spoke in
favour of the Bill. Mr. Hume, by a majority of 78, carried his
resolution for discontinuing gratuities to officers of the House, &c.,
and gave notice that on Thursday he should move for a Committee
to consider what compensation ought to be awarded. Mr. Alder-
man Wood obtainedleave to bring in Bills for the better regulation
of steam vessels, cabs, omnibuses, &c. Sir R. Musgrave moved
for leave to bring in a Bill to afford relief, in certain cases, to the
poor in Ireland. Mr. Hume's motion, that it be an instruction to
the Building Committee, to reconsider the propriety of removing
the site of the new Houses of Parliament, was resisted by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, on a division, was eventually
lost. Leave was given to Mr. Ewart to allow prime's kill defer a:
by Counsel and Attorney. The Library Committee was re..p •
pointed, when, it being twelve o'clock, Mr. Brotherton, adhering to
his laudable determination in favour of keeping good hours, moved
the adjournment of the House. Colonel Sibthorp, however, in-
sisted on first moving for a Return of all the Commissions, &c.,
since 1830. The House then adjourned.