The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-13 00:00:00

though ho was aware that the magistracy, like
all other human beings, were liable to die,
yet, for the many years with which he had been con-
nected with them, he had seen but few changes of faces.
—(flear, hear.) He did trust that before the
Right Honourable Baronet gave his sanction to this
Bill he would peuse and consider whether he would
pass such an insult on the gentry of England.
He would caution the House and the Government not un
necessarily to interfere with that which had long worked
so well, and which he maintained would continue to work
well if the gen;ry of England would only do ih. it duty.—
(Laughter.) He adopted that maxim of which they
had heard so much lately—that property had its
duties as well as its rights, and one of the first duties of
landed proprietors was to attend to the administration of
their local affairs.—(Hear, hear.) If they did not shrink
from the duties involved upon them by the constitution,
the interests of the poor would never suffe-r, and
and as long es their functions were properly discharged,
he held there could be no reason ter setting them aside,
and superseding them by another body. flow could a
board like that proposed by the Honeurable Mem-
ber carry on the affairs of the country? how
rould it deal with the reports of the vi-icing justices of
the county gaol.?—(Hear, hear.) If the Bill were
pas,ed, the menagement of county gaols must neces-
sarily be turned over to the Government, for it would be
impossible for the magistrates to superintend them
effectually if a small body had p twcr to say, you
must not effect that improvement, adopt this salary.
nor carry out those regulations which the Home-office
considered necessary for the management of the geol.
He had no objt ction to a fair inqu►ry and to
some reform, if it would be ready beneficial ;
but he for one could not c insent to a Bilt
like that which he held would de'eat the very obj, et
which the Hoe. Member (Mr. Hume) had in view. He
held that the present body was, in effect, a true represen•
tation of the rate-payers to this extent—that a 3 they
themselves were the largest rate-payers, it was to their
interest to effect every possible economy, and hence they
would protect the interest of the small rate payers. It
was upon those grounds that he moved by way of amend-
ment, " That a Select Committee be upp_inted to in•
quire into the levying and appropriation of the county
rates in England and Wales."
Mr. R. PALMER seconded the amendment, consi-
dering that the affairs of the county would not be better
managed by the board which Mr. Hume propcsA to adopt.
He did not think, if the matter were inquired into, that
it would appear that the expenditure of the county stuck,
as a prinmple, was careless or extravagant. The up
pointment of the officers of peels, at.d of all the officers
in the county, was to be transferred to the proposed
board, which he thought quite uncalled for and exceed-
ingly objectionable. The Hon. Member for Montrose

said he had no objection to ref. rring the Bill to a
elect Committee. lie (Mr. R. Palaver) had no ob-
jection to that course, but at the same time it
was to be remembered chat they could not take evidence
on the subject before the Select Committee to which the
Bill might be referred, and it was desirable to hear
evidence on the whole subject of the expenditure of the
county rate.
Mr. HEYWOOD did not quite agree with the Bill as
it stood at the present moment,. but thought that modifi
cations might be made in it so as to meet the exigencies
of the case. He thought it would not be fair to the people
of this country to pass a general measure, merely because
a particular district might call fcr a change of system.
In Scotland the gaols were self-supporting; the pri-
soners were made to work for their maintenance. He
saw no reason why this should not be done here.—
(Hear.) He thought that financial boards of rate-
payers would: work much good. Indeed the principle
was not a new one.
Sir G. GREY was favourable to the principle of the
Bill, namely, the representation of the ratepayers—
the formation of financial boards in which the various
classes of ratepayers should be fairly represented.—
(Hear, hear.) Looking at the report of the Commis
sioners of England and Wales on this subject, he found
the principle fully embodied, and he was sure it was only
necessary to read the names of the gentlemen appended to
the report to be of opinion that, in the recommendations
they made, they did nut intend to cast aoy affront upon
the magistrates or gentlemen of the counties.—(etear,
hear.) He did not support the principle of the B►d,
because he believed that the magistrates had been
wanting in their duty in the pursuance of
that rigid economy in the county expenditure
which was so ❑ecessary. Indeed, on the contrary, he
believed the magistrates of England, being themselves
large contributors
_to the county rate, had a direct in-
wrest in watching the county expenditure, and he
believed they bad done so. In those cases in
which they had been charged with excessive
expenditure he found that it had arisen tin
consequence of following out the laws passed by the
Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman op-
posite was in error if he supposed that they were merely
to follow out the arbitrary will and pleasure of the Secre-
tary of State. The Act of George IV. made it
obligatory upon magistrates to provide for the
efficient accommodation of prisoners in gaols, such as their
diet, classification, sleeping places, and conduct, and ir, at
the same time, imposed certain duties on the Secretary
of State, which were also correctly and definitely set
forth. If the magistrates refused to perform the duties
that devolved, a mandamus might be moved for in the
Queen's Bench, calling upon them to show cause. It was
his duty to see that they pr, perly discharged the duties
assigned to them. But there were cases to which hi.
superiuteniing influence did not extend. Fur
instance, lunatic asylums were placed out or
his control; after he had approved of the site,
the further expenditure in connexion with them

was placed out of his power. He was bound to say that
since he had had the honour to till the office of Under-
tary of State fur the Home Department whatever
he had suggested they h.d evinci d a mast ready dis-
position to accede to—not servilely, but a willingness to
adopt them, or to give subs:.autiat reasons for not doing
so.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Honourable Baronet
opposite must recollect that rate-Eaters did not merely
consist of one class, but of several, and therefore he
(Sir G. Grey) objected to the entire management of the
expenditure being e ntrusted to the hands of that one
class.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") But when he came
to the details of the Bill he was almost ready to
coincide with the Honourable Gentleman ; but the
Hun. Member for Montrose bad intimated that he did
not lay much stress upon the details, and was ready to
amend them in Committee.—(bear, hear.) As it stood,
he (Sir George Grey) was prepared to say that it would
be round altogether impracticable.—( Hear.) With regal d
to the proportion of the elective body to the magistrates,
be considered that portion of the Bill altogether wrong,
and that the principle of preponderance he had laid down
ouAlit to be altogether opposite to that for which he
contended.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to guard him-
self by saying that he approved of the principle or
representation embodied is the Bill.—(Bear, hear.)
Sometimes magistrates Were very regular in their at-
tendance; but it oiten occurred that there were great
fluctuations in the attendance, and it might happen that
those who only occasionally attended might overpowet
those who were more regular, and took a mere active part.
The report of the Commissioners spike of lour quarter ses-
sions of one county being heid in tour different parts of
the Orme county ; now it wasjust pus:Pile in such a case thea
the attendance of the magistrates connected with these
localities would take place, and that a difference of
opinion might prevail in different districts with
respect to metiers affecting the whole of the county.
The Hon. Baronet who had moved the amendment, it
he understood him rightly, did not object to the prin
ciple of the Bill, nor did he; but with regard to the
details, he felt that some further inquiry was necessary.
Now if they read the Bill .4 second time, and referred
it to a Select Committee, it would be absolutely
indispensable that the power of the Committee should be
enlarged. Practically, therefore, there was no difference
between the original motion and the amendment ; and if
theon s
e Hot p
t.() Gentlemanamennaen, thethetMem forhobwerleut
sMniecntrto, steogthr
wouldee
n the d
with his Bill, might be referred to the Committee, which
e
would be the most straightforward way of dealing with
the question.—(Hear.) With regard to what had been
said about the expenditure, the magistrates evinced a
laudable desire to economise the only tax upon building,
which must fall permanently upon the county rate, but
as to the expenditure fur assize and sessions prosecu-
tions, it really was high time that some check was put
up. on it. If therefore this question went before a Com-
mittee, he should propose to lay certain information on
the table which would enable them to devise some plan
for checking that growing evil.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. HENLEY thought the Right Hon. Bart. would
have done better had he considered the subject mere
before he ventured to make such a charge against the
magistrates, as it was well known that they had
no control over the assize prosecution expenditure;
that duty rested with the judge of assize, and all the
magistrates had to do was to sea that the money was
paid. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman would con-
sent to the appointment of the Committee, as he was con-
vinced the Biil itself would never work in its present form.
He would ask whether the public buildings had been
erected at a less proportionate expense than those which
had been raised from county rates.—(Hear, hear.)
That was not a matter of proof and opinion, but one of
proof and estimate.—(Hear.) All the public buildings
were erected under the supervision of responsible and
official persons, all under open contract.—(Hear,
hear.) They had been compelled to build lunatic
asylums and to enlarge their gaols these all
were items of large expense. It was well known
that none of the expenses could be incurred
without the strictist supervision, and if the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had taken an interest in the subject bad been
in his place, he would have asked him whether he bad
nut had great difficulty in his endeavour to raise the
dietary in the prisons.—(Hear, hear.) He would also
ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home
Department whether there had been any complaint
whatever made of excess in the expenditure upon this
item. He would also further ask him whether
the expenses incurred in Millbsnk ar.d Fulton-
ville, or any other of tie public prisons, were
less than those paid in the county gaols.
When the gaol Act was pasted some years ago, iss
ince was very far from being anticipated, and much ex-
pense had been the result, but for which the county
magistrates were in no way responsible. On the whole
he was desirous of some inquiry, and he thought that it
ought to be made; but the Bill in its present state was
quite impracticable.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he was desirous to say
a few words, because he thought that his Honour.
able Friend the Member for Montrose had been
hardly dealt with in the early part of this debate.
The Hon. Member who had just sat down had dealt
more fairly than the Hon. Baronet who moved the
amendment ; he had expressed his opposition to the
Bill because he believe dit to be impracticable. Now the
very reason why he( Mr. V. Smith) would support it
was, because he conceived it to be far more practicable
than the amendment. The Hon. Baronet who bad
chiefly opposed ha Bill had stated that this Bill, if