The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-23 00:00:00

COVENT GAR.
There was very good supply t
vas somewhat dull at nearly last

~tat es (cwt.) , s. d. s. 4....... 2 0 411
New Potatoes .......... 3 6 0
Ca' ha White (12) 0 3 0 6
Cauliflowers .............. 0 4 410
.1. rse ltadisli(buhd.e) 1 6 2 0
Celery .................. 0 9 1 0
Carrots 12bonches)... 2 6 4 0
Crops
...... :2 0 2 6
Young Onions .......... 6 I 0
lump II 6 11 9
oleworts or Gr,ens... I 6 2 0
For.Orarws (pet lb.)._ 0 8 .2 0
English, Forced g 6 7 0
Cherries ......... • ....... 0 3 0 6
Piee Apples (lb.) ...... 5 11 10 0
Peaches (dozen) ..,....Ilp 0 16 0
Nectarines ............ 8 0 El 0
Cucumbers........ ..... 0-0 1 0
Sea Kail (punnet),..... 0-4 010
Mu5hr00m5..,.,,,,_ 0 9 1 0
Small Salad ............ 0 2 0 3
C Lettuces (per score) 0 4 0 8
_ _

HAY MARKS -§;l'
üBEI
..!oarse heavy Lowland Meadoc
wFlay..
Vew Meadow Hay
Useful Old Ditto 00000
Fine Upland Meadow and Rye-grass
Clover Hav
Ott Straw ............. 1 10 toll 121
SMITH
Coarse heavy Lowland Id to „C 3 15
y Lowland Meadow Hay
3 4 15
S:w Meadow Hay
............ ................. . ........... 3 5
........................ :
rive Upland Meadow and Bye grass Hay........... .".. 100 4
Clover Hay ,extra fine)....... C 5 15 .. Generally
...... 4 0 5 5
)at Straw 11 10 121 Wheat Straw 1 11 1 16
HUNGERFORD.
.... .............
Useful Old Ditto ..

t per Load of 36 Trusses.)
BLAND.

:.X3 In t.. „f 5 15
3 9 3 15
3 15 1 0
Hay
3 15 5 10
‘V heat Straw 1 14 1 Pt
FIELD

Coarse Mea,low Hay ............................................ 15 to £4 0
UsefuNiue Upland Mea,low and Rye
l Old Ditto ...... ..................... ....... .......
4 12 4 15
Clover flay
14 Straw .............. 10 to 112 Wheat Straw
R brass Hay

ABID DOGS.—The wets from all parts of the
country join the metropolitan prints in crying out " Mad dog."
Now, as it is well known that persons have been frightened
into hydrophobia, the policy is perhaps questionable of so con-
stantly excitinr, alarm by dwelling on the subject of a disease
sometimes resulting merely from imaginative danger.

Au iftifihfidilt and critical meeting of the Liberal
Members of the iltintiti tYf Commons, converted by
Lord John Russell, was held peoirday afteritnon at
the Foreign-office, in Downing-street. The object of
the meeting was to assemble the friends of the com-
mon cause of Reform interested in the maintenance of
a Liberal Administration, and who differed in opinion
on the Ministerial Bills of Church Reform, an analysis
of all of which we published in the Morning Chronicle
of yesterday. Lord John Russell stated briefly the
reasons for his calling them together. He observed
that the three legislative measures for the reform of the
Church originated in the invest.i.qations and reports of
the Commission issued in 1835, to consider the state
of the Established Church, with a view to the bugges-
tion of measures conducive to its efficiency—a Coln'
mission originally appointed by Sir Robert Peel. On
the dissolution of the ex-Premier's Cabinet, the Lord
Chancellor, Lord Lansdowne, Lord Melbourne, Lord
John Russell, and Mr. Spring Rice, succeeded es
officio to the retiring members of the Tory Ministry
as Commissioners ; and became companions of five
Prelates, with Lord Harrowby, the Honourable
H. Hobhouse, and Sir Herbert Jenner, In such
society it was obvious that no very extensive
reformation of the Church was to be remit*.
mended ; but Lord John declared that 'Ministers
had sincerely desired and endeavoured to effect the
greatest possible sum of Reform. Four Reports in
all emanated from the Commission ; the last of them
was dated the 24th day of June last, the third was
presented to the House of Commons on the 20th of
May last, and was in print early in June. The mea-
sures founded on those Reports were, therefore, not
exclusively Ministerial, but rather the production of
the joint Commissioners by a sort of Compromise.
The two Bills in the Commons were respectively
brought in on the 20th of May and Bth of this month,
and the " ChurCh Discipline Bill" was in print in the
Lords in May. Lord John Russell quoted the
Mirror of Parliament, in which the third Report—
the substratum of the Bills—was eulogised by Mr.
Hume ; and his Lordship complained that the stouter
Reformers did not earlier protest against the princi-
ples of the measures, instead of denouncing them only
on ;the third reading of the first Bill in the Commons,
when Ministers were committed to them in the discus-
sions of the previous stages. Mr. Hume, Mr. Charles
_Buller, Mr. Mark Philips, Mr. Aglionby, and other
Members, strongly protested against the Bills, and
urged their postponement. Sir R. Price, Mr. O'Con-
nell, and other Liberal Members, vindicated Ministers
under all the circumstances of their difficult situation
on the question. Mr. O'Connell deprecated a dis-
union and division which might subject Ireland again
to the , destructive domination of the Tories. Lord
John Russell, we understood, professed his willingness
to suspend the " Church Discipline" and" Ecclesias-
tical. Duties and Revenues" Bills, but declared the de-
termination of Ministers to proceed with the " Esta-
blished Church Bill." His Lordship, we understand,
further expressed no objection to subject the nomina-
tion of the " Corporation" or future Commission to the
King in Council, in lieu of the offensive High Church
Tory body named in the present measures. After
much discussion, and considerable difference of opi-
nion, the meeting separated. At the ,usual time of
making a House," and when the adjourned debate
would have been resumed, many of the Liberal Mem-
bers remaining in the lobby, there were not sufficient in
number to form a House, and consequently the ques-
tion stands over. We offer no opinion on this latter
proceeding, being sincerely desirous of avoiding topics
which would widen but not repair a temporary division of
the Radical party. Perhaps the original error was in the
Administration taking up the Commission. The
Bishops were sure to pursue their own selfish and si-
nister objects. We understand that Lord John Rus-
sell, at the meeting, distinctly stated that these mea-
sures were not final, and were not to be considered as
an act of irrevocable settlement. If this declaration is
boldly repeated in the Commons, it may do much to
smooth difficulties. Without, therefore, to day, ex-
pressing any opinion on this party division, we impress
upon all the importance of mutual concession and ad-

justment. The common enemy will alone profit by
our disunion ; and it behoves every real Reformer not
to give the Tories the 'vantage ground of differences
among the Liberals. To effect a breach has been the

laborious toil of the Tory Press and Conservative party,
and happily hitherto an abortive work. We rejoice to
learn that the leaders of the different sections are
anxious to accommodate the difference of opinion, and
we trust that Ministers, who have received so much
cordial support (at times with no common sacrifice of
questions), will not be behind band in meeting the
difficulty. We cannot afford to be disunited, and much
as the Tories chuckle over this division, we suspect
neither they nor the greedy Bishops will eventually be
gainers.—Morning Chronicle.

Our anticipations relative to the proceedings in
Parliament last night have not been fully realized.
In the House of Lords Lord Melbourne moved the
second reading of the Irish Church Bill in a very short
and an exceedingly well tempered speech, destitute
alike of those menaces and of those claptraps which
heretofore, and especially upon Irish questions, have
formed the most prominent features of the Ministerial
eloquence of the Members of the Whig-Radical Go-
vernment on set occasions, whether Mr. Rice or Lord
Melbourne were the orator—Dacus pie loquatur an,
Heros. Lord Melbourne told the House that the ob-
jects of the measure were fourfold—the substitution of
a rent-charge of 701. for every 1001. in lieu of tithes ;
the re-distribution of benefices ; the regulation of the
amount of income to each benefice ; and the appropria-
tion of whatever surplus might remain. To the rent-
charge he anticipated no objection, and with regard to
the amount of it, though it was a greater reduction
from the incomes of the clergy than any that had been
previously proposed, still in the settlement of a ques-
tion of so great importance, some sacrifices must be
made, and the longer the settlement was delayed, the
greater must those sacrifices be on one side or the
other. Alluding to the clause which vests the collec-
tion of the rent-charges in the Commissioners of
Woods and Forests, and to the objections which had
been urged against that arrangement, on the ground
that it made the clergy, as it were, stipendiaries of the
State, Lord • Melbourne, amidst much laughter, in
it was
til e beyondstte
was all
which he himself most heartily joined, begged those
Noble Lords who had no practical experience on the
subject to take liswordnfocno Paul for it, thata
question true, thati an income
alWays more certain in its amount, and more punctual
in the period of its payment, than any other kind of
income whatever. It is always unfair to criticise a
joke, and we hope we do not transgress that rule in
regard.to his Lordship's jest (which hits some of his
colleagues rather hard), when we retnind him that
the proverb respecting not lookino a horse in the
mouth applies only to a gift horse. With re-
gard to the re-distribution of benefices, he said he
supposed that would be admitted to be a desirable
object, and he founded his supposition upon Lord
Stanley's motion in the House of Commons, moved
as. an amendment on the second reading of this Bill,
for leave to brim in a Bill " for the conversion of
tithe-
composition into rent-charges, and for the redemption
thereof, and for the better distribution of ecclesiastical
revenues in Ireland." Lord Melbourne said he was
sure Lord Stanley would be an authority with their
Lordships. Happy should we be to find' Lord Stanley
accepted !as an authority by Lord Melbourne too,—
not only in regard to the re-distribution of benefices,
but in reference to the appropriation clause also : and
if his Lordship cites the authority of Lord Stanley in
the one case, how can he resist it when others cite it
in the other, especially after speaking of Lord Stanley
as be did speak of him last night ? With a degree of
manliness which precludes the possibility of doubting

his sincerity, Lord Meltiettiti a described him id thes
words—" My Noble Friend I.Grd StaAley, whose
secession from the Government nave never ceased to
regret." Lord Melbourne then applied Wmself to the
two remaining objects of 'the measure—the ;amount of
tile income of the _benefices and the appropsiatiors of
the supposed surplus. By the one-sided amureient so
often refuted in the House of Commons, Lord Melbourne
made at that the Irish clergy would still be as well paict
as t! English ; and by figures borrowed from Lord
Liston 's system of arithmetic, he had as little diffi-
culty in producing the.old putative surplus of upwards
of 70,0001. The Dukeof Wellington,after congratulat-
ing the House upon the good temper and the modera-
tion displayed by Lord Melbourne, said he would not op-
pose the second reading of the Bill, and that he would do
everything, in his power ter promote the careful consi-
deration of the measure in Committee. The Noble
tike then intimated his willingness to assent to all
that part of the Bill which converts tithes into rent-
charge, and !deo to a're-distribution of benefices ; but
he told Lord Melbourne that, after such a re-distribu-
tion as he contemplated, the Noble Lord might depend
upon it there would be no sucolus at all. With these
two speeches, the Bill was reaa a second time, and or- .
dered to be committed on Mondays So far, then, our
anticipations of Friday have been rea!ized. It is quite
clear the House of Lords will not agree to the spolia-
tion, or surplus, clause. The House of Commons,
however, disappointed our expectations---not by ter-
minating the debate on the Established Church Bill
in a manner different to that we had anticipated, but
by cutting the discussion altogether, and, as the phrase
is, " making no House." There were but 32 Mem--
hers present at four o'clock. We can, of course,
know nothing of the cause of this Proceeding, so
particularly ominous on a Friday .n;s-ht. It is
said, however, that there was a " Lit&-go" in
this morning at the Foreign-office, at which the Ra-
dicals took the Ministers so severely to task, that
even Lord J. Russell threatened to resign ! Mr.
I-Intav told him to resign, and we know not
what else besides, but we dare say something which
the Home Secretary will no more to do (if he can help
it) than he will resign. Mr. O'Coneiell appeared in
the character of a peace-maker, and dragging his wig
about as usual, and pulling up his coat cellar, blar-
neyed away in favour of the Government to a degree
that made even Mr. Spring Rice declare that he
thought Daniel had really earned the subscription the
Ministers are making for him. Lord John Russell',,
however, persisted in adhering to the Bill, and the
majority o'f the Radicals persisted in their threats of
opposing it ; so that the question now is, whether the
Government are to be dictated to, and the country is
to he domineered over, by a • faction -more ieialtry and
contemptible both in character and in intellect than any
that ever yet pretended to power since the days of
Barcbones' Parliament. But we have dealt more in
detail with this meeting elsewhere. The main objec-
tion to the Established Church Bill is, we under Stand,
that it appoints two new Bishops—a Bishop of Ripon
and a Bishop of Manchester, whom the Ministerial
print we noticed yesterday as
reatens to pelted with
stinking eggs and rotten cabbages. Now, that those
disreputable Radicals who call ,"hemselves " Any-
thing-arians" in religion, or that those, if possi-
ble, more disreputable Members of t:se same poli-
tical gang, that rejoice in the title of Nothtng-
nrians," should look with disapprohatioo upon
this increased provision for the spiritual wants of the
people, though it is not to cost the country a jarthmg,
is in our view neither surprising nor important. They
hate the Church, and would gladly destroy it. All,
therefore, that tends to strengthen the establishment
by increasing her utility is as wormwood to such out-
casts. But what will he said of the Protestant Dis-
senters who concur in this objection of the " Anything-
arians," and " Nothing-arians ?" Can the Protestant
Dissenters have forgotten that foremost among those
measures of Church reform for which Baxter and Ca- .
lamy contended, and which not being conceded they
leftshe Church, were, that the bishoprics should he
equalised, and that more bishops should he appointcal?
Have the bishoprics become less in extent since 1660,'
and the population fewer? We earnestly entreat all •
conscientious members of the Dissenting community
to keep a vigilant watch upon the Conduct of those
members of Parliament who pretend to be of the same
persuasion with themselves.--Tuns s.
When Parliament lent, or rather Jaye, a round
million to the robbed and suffering titre-owners in
Ireland, there was not a person who did tot take it
for granted, that it was to be bestowed solely .7ml ex-
clusively in relieving the urgent necessities of the resi-
dent Clergy, What then must be every one's astonish-
ment to learn that such has not been the case, and that
from a return made to Parliament, numerous persons,
not of that description, including Peers and other lay-
men of vast possessions, have been accommodated with
large grants from this fund ? We would fain hope
that this matter admits of explanation ; and that it will
turn out that the persons we allude to, though the
nominal recipients of the money, have only taken it as
trustees•for some of the Clergy on their estates, on
whom they can show that it has been faithfully be-
stowed. Should Snell turn out, however, not to he
the case, we trust that the idea, as least as far as such
appropriation goes, of converting this loan into a gift,
will be abandoned, and the par: its called upon to repay
or give security for the repayment cif sums which, some
of them at least, ought ta..hlush to love received. As
private benevolence is deitlened and t.hwarted by im-
position; so must the public purse-susllgs become
tightened when we see the kind intentions of Parlia-
ment thus abused and trifled with.—Morn. herald.
The Ministerial camp is in a state of mutina7. and
in consequence of this die functions of the House
of Corimions arc for the present suspended. We will
endeavour to describe the scene which took place yes-
terday at the meeting of Members of the House of
Commons at Downing-strect, summoned by Lord J.
Russell, " to talk over," as the Courier has it, " the
discussion which will this (yesterday) evening take
place—(alas, it did not take place)—on the Esta-
blished Church Bill." Our readers will do us the
•
lionaur to believe that we were not present at this
meeting. They will do us the further honour to
lieliere that none of the persons who could have been
present at such a meeting can be our friends. Yet,
claiming as we do this immunity from the disgrace of
such communication, we think we may venture to say
!lint we are tolerably weil informed as to the general
character and proceedings of the assembly. We
challenge contradiction as to the substantial ac-
curacy of any part of the following statement :
The meeting was attended by ieearly the whole
of the
Whig Radical and Papist Alsinbers of the
House of Commons now in town, for the. occasion
was universally felt among those various tsibes of
politicians to he a moat important one. Lord J. ;tits-
sell opened the proceedings, and expressed in
lau-
euage the most unequivocal the determination of his
'Majesty's Government, in pursuance of what they be-
lieved to he their duty to the country, to press upon
the House of Commons the adoption of the " Esta-
Wished Church Bill." Upon this there was a grand
commotion. Mr. Hume, ,Mr Roebuck, Mr. C.
Buller, Mr 'l'. Duncombe, aua
Radical party, in the my stroll other members of the
strongest terms which the
English language can souls, intimated their deter-
eaination not only to resist this particular measure,
Ina to withdraw their Parliamenatary confidence and
support from the Government if it were persisted in.
We are informed, and believe, that the langnsge of
one or two individuals of this party was such as
public men cannot apply to each other, and subse-
quently act together, witholt or mutual sense of per-
t, a
shoeiris of
t
ald eghradation.
Catholic
e Ronan AI O'Connellpy
ntly,
that they were about to lose time Ministerial tools with
which they can work so well, appeared in the novel
character of peace-makers. Mr. O'Connell
implored
the Radical Members of the House of Commons to
reflect well what they were about. Such
Ministers as
the present ought not to be
deserted upon slight
;rounds. I hey .
were dojos all that they could to pro-
!note the liberal cause, antiit was harsh and unjust to
require more of them. To displace the present Minis-
teri of the Crown would be indefinitely to postpone
that full. justice to Ireland, which, with their assistance,
he did not despair of obtaining. He was decidedly of
()pinion that all truly liberal English and Scotch Mem..
hers ought to tolerate the existence of the Church of
England a little lenger, in order to enable and the

other Members for Ireland, with that assistance which
they were sure to obtain from the present Ministers, to
accomnlish their purposes, with respect to the Protes-
tant Church in Ireland. He and the friends with
wb om he acted had no hesitation in expressing their
opinion that, for the attainment of .purposes so truly
liberal and exalted, it would be in the highest degree
honourable to English Members of Parliament to dis-
regard whatever pledges they might have given to their
constituents or to each other. Lotd J. Russell, tors
fortified and re-inforced, assumed a holder tone than he
had originally dared to adopt. And it is said that he
even went so far as to mutter something about Minis-
ters retiring from office, if they did not receive from the
Liberal Members of the flouse of Commons a frank and
cordial support. The cajolery of Mr. O'Connell and the
threat of Lord J. Russell were, however, equally inef-
fectual. The stubborn Radicals of Great Britain
refused to bend. Mr. Hume continued to growl ;
Mr. Roebuck to bark. The pert flippancies of Mr.
C, Buller ceased not ; and the more gentlemanly and
polished sarcasms of Torn Duncombe were launched
as before, although, unhappily, disregarded or unheard
in the confusion and dire strife of the moment. Such
was the state of the party when the hour approached
at which the Speaker of the House of Commons was
to take the Chair. To have had a House would have
been ruin. It would have cut off all hope of nego-
tiation, compromise, and adjustment. The fatal Bill
wr.s among the Orders of the Day. What was to be
idone ? To adjourn to the House of Commons the
stormy debate of Downing-street would have been
madness. The House of _Commons, thanks to the
Conservative electors of England, is not yet a family
party, like the amicable assembly at the Foreign
Office ; and besides, there are the tell-tale reporters in
the Gallery. The only course was to contrive,
if possible, that there should not be forty Mem-
bers present at four o'clock. Upon this mission
Mr. Charles Wood was despatched in all haste.
And he arrived in the lobby just in time to
warn off all the Ministerial Members who might
inadvertently have contributed to complete the neces-
sary number. The trick succeeded. When the
Spealdir counted the House there were not forty mem-
bers present, and the House accordingly adjourned;
so that twenty-four hours at least ; perhaps, as to-day
is Saturday, forty-eight hours ; and perhaps, as to-
morrow is Sunday, seventy-two hours, are gained to
the distracted and conflicting party, to soften asperi-
ties—to allay passions--to overcome scruples—to sub-
jugate or purchase opinions. Between this and Mon-
day the Radical Members may make a sacrifice of
their opinions and their pledges to the threat of Lord
John Russell, or to the persuasion of Mr. O'Connell.
Between this and Monday Lord John Russell and his
cc;ileagues may discover, with the assistance of Mr.
O'Connell, that their best chance of retaining office
is to yield to the Radicals, and give up their Bill. Be-
tween this and Monday it is impossible, indeed, to say
what may or may not take place ; but it is, in the
meanwhile, satisfactory to know that the fact is certain
that at four o'clock yesterday, and even at a much later
hour, the Alinist'srial party was in a state of intestine
disorder and strife which threatened its immediate disso-
lution. Thus the business of the country in the House
of Commons, is suspended. Alinisters, whose bu-
siness it is, and who always have the power, to make a
House, have twice within the present week prevented
a House from being made. They pretend great
anxiety to expedite the public business in Parliament.
Under this pretence, they prevail upon the House of
Commons to give the Orders of the Day precedence
to motions, thus usurping, by means of their regula-
tions, the initiative in legislation, depriving indepen-
dent Members of the opportunity of bringing forward
such measures as they think conducive to the welfare
and prosperity of the country, and essentially altering
the constitutional character of the House of Commons.
And, having done this, to forward the business of the
country, the next thing they do is to prevent the
House of Commons from sitting at all, two out of the
five Parliamentary days of the week, to retard the
business of the country. This inconsistency is wholly
unaccountable and inexcusable, or to be explained and
excused only upon the ground that Ministers are at
their wits' end--that they know not what to do—that
when out of the view of Parliament they feel like re-
spited convicts--that when in the presence of Parlia-
ment they are conscious of the throes, the agony, and
the terror of approaching dissolution.—Morning Post.
Most of our readers are, no doubt, already aware
that there was no meeting of the House of Commons
last night, but that there was a meeting at the Foreign-
office in the forenoon, for the purpose of discussing the
provisions of the Established Church Bill, and that
some considerable difference of opinion was evinced
upon the subject by the liberal supporters of his Ma-
jesty's Government. It is scarcely necessary for us,
in consequence, to state that the differences of opinion
evinced at the meeting in question formed the main
ground of there being no House of Commons last
night, and of the further discussion of the Bill, which
would have formed the subject of its deliberations,
having been postponed. Of that Bill, we have al-
ready expressed our opinion in no very measured
terms. It is a Tory Bill from the beginning to
the end—emanating from the conclusions of a Tory
Commission, appointed by a Tory Administration
—and therefore liable to all the suspicions of dis-
honesty, and public robbery, and traffic in holy
places, and, nepotic faVeltiritism, which the recollec-
tions of three-quarters of a century of Tory misrule
imprint upon the public mind. It is, therefore, prima
facie a bad Bill—for nothing in the shape of good and
sound Reform, ecclesiastical or civil, can ever emanate
from the Tory camp ; hut it is worse on practical
examination ; for it not only confirms the dignitaries
of the. Church in the enjoyment of their vast, lordly,
and unsanctifying and anti-apostolic revenues—!rut it
did go to the extent of fixing all land which may in
future be reclaimed from a state of nature, with a tax
for the benefit of the Church—of a Church daily sink-
ing in public estimation, and which, instead of claim-
ing the grant of any additional favour from the people,
ought to put its best foot foremost in deprecating its
wrath for the long reign or plunder and injustice to which
it must plead guilty. We could have forgiven the ex-
travagant revenues granted to the Bishops by the Bill
—we could have allowed' for the moment 15,0001. a
year to the Archbishop of Canterbury—and 8,000/.
and 7,oool.—and 5,000/.—to others, though noz only
a waste, but a base use of the public money, without
• grumbling, knowing, as we do, that these revenues.
will be speedily cut down to their proper proportion ;
and that though Pope sings in a falsetto that—
" 'Tis from high life high characters are drawn ;
A saint in crape is twice a saint in lawn."
We shall have more saints by-and-bye in crape than
we have ever had in lawn. But the " appropriation
clause" of the Bill—the clause which went to ensure
tithe upon all lands which are not, but may be, brought
into a state of cultivation, is intolerable. The grasp-
ing spirit of the Church is evinced by it to an extent
of which no one could previously have formed any
conception—and in that grasping spirit we find con-
solation for the present, and hope- for the future.
The clause, we belicvzs has been abandoned ; but there
is nothing to equal your madmen in inducing people to
be wise. With regard to the conduct of the Ministry
upon this subject, it is at once to be deplored and to
be forgiven. They arc pressed on all sides by difficulties
---the Ce;urt is against them—the Lords are against
them--there is a powerful minority in the Commons
against them—and what can they do ? What use would
there be in the passing of a Bill through the Commons
which would be rejected by the Lords ? Is it not
more wise on their part to endeavour to pass a Bill
which, objectionable, as we have already said, in many
i mportant particulars, it is, is still an improvement
Upon the present system ? In the language of Lord
Durham, we hate to see the sun set upon a known and
recognised abuse; but in the calmer and milder spirit
of Lord Brougham, we must frankly grant, that where
great obstacles to reform exist, and where great preju-
dices have to be encountered, time and patience must
be called to aid in the effecting of permanent and useful
reforms. With regard to the opinions evinced by Mr.
Hume, Mr. Duncornbe, Mr. Buller, and others, upon
the question of carrying or not carrying the Bill, we
must, notwithstanding our dislike of it, enter our pro-
test. Their sincerity is unquestionable—but their dis-
cretion is somewhat dubious. A worse time for their
opposition could not have been chosen. The Tories at
the present moment are in high feather. They deem

the name to be their own, and nothing more propitious
to their cause could have occurred than the difference
of opinion which was evinced yesterday. Produce a
division in the Liberal camp, and Toryism is in the
ascendant. We are therefore, for once but for the
grounds now stated, of the opinion of Mr. O'Connell,
who urged upon the meeting the necessity of union for
the sake of Ireland. We do not say for the sake of
Ireland Only, but for the sake of all England—for the
sake of the united empire—for the sake of Reform.
Surely, after having put our shoulders together—after
having defeated the Tories upon every point which was
nearest to their heart—after having thrown out their
Speaker—defeated them upon the Address—destroyed
them upon the Irish Church Bill—carried the Poor
Laws, and other measures of equal importance—are the
Liberals, we say, to quarrel upon a Bill which, bad as
it may he, is still an improvement upon the existing
system ? Forbid it, every friend to Reform !
Morning Advertiser.
The real ground of the opposition manifested in the
House of Lords to the Parochial Assessment Bill
(and to which we alluded on a former occasion), was
disclosed last night in the proposal of a clause by the
Archbishop of Canterbury, the effect of which, as was
stated by the Lord Chancellor, would be to determine
that tithes are in future to be rated in a less proportion
to their annual value than land. The Archbishop
has, no doubt, been persuaded by interested parties
that such is the law at present. That he is in error
on this point he himself must be pretty well satisfied,
by the opinion decidedly given to that effect by both
Lord Wynford and the Lord Chancellor. But still
clinging to the possibility of future decisions in favour
of his view of the titheowner's right to comparative
exemption from rate, the Archbishop insisted on the
introduction of a clause reserving such rights, if
any exist ; and in this shape the' Bill was re-
ported. Now we do strongly object to leaving
any ambiguity whatever on the subject. If there
be any doubt on the question, the sooner it is put
an end to, and the litigation of the matter stopped,
the better ; and how can this be done in a fitter
manner than in a Bill for establishing uniformity
in the mode of rating, or at a fitter time than
in the same session which is to alter the whole cha-
racter of tithe, and place it hereafter on the footing of
rent ? No one ventures to deny that tithe ought to
contribute equally with the rent of land to the poor-
rate. No one denies that it does so practically at
present ; and therefore the doubt having been once
raised, whether, under the existing law, tithe may not
escape from a part of this liability, no time should be
lost in removing the doubt, and determining the point
in accordance with general practice aid equity. On
this ground, therefore, we do think the introduc-
tion of any clause to meet the Archbishop's views
both unwise and mischievous. It introduces com-
plexity where the most desirable thing was simplicity.
It will puzzle the overseers who make the rate ;
whereas the main object of the Bill is to lay down a
simple guide for them to follow, which it shall be im-
possible for an honest assessor to mistake —namely,
the net annual value or rental, clear of all charges, of
every description of rateable property. The only
object for which the clause can be desired, is one
which can do no credit to those who propose or sup-
port it--namely, the expectation of being able here-
after to found on it a claim for the unjust exemption
of tithes from their fair share of the parochial bur-
dens.—Morning Chronicle of yesterday.
Ireland as may be observable from the asssize in-
telligence, never was so tranquil, and this fact speaks
not more highly for the Government of Lord Mul-
grave than it does for the moderation and good sense
of the Irish people—qualities, by the way, which their
enemies and calumniators would fain have us believe
to be strangers to their nature. We are aware that
the quiescence of Ireland at the present moment will,
in all prqbability, be ascribed to various causes, and
none of them the true one. While the Tories will
attribute the quietude that now reigns in the sister
country to the absence of the great political agitator,
coupled with the vigour which has been manifested by
the Court of Exchequer, the Whigs will, upon the
other side, take more than their clue share of credit, and
ascribe to their unaccomplished measures the sole
merit of having lulled Ireland into a state of temporary
repose. Both parties, we fear, will find themselves
hereafter greatly mistaken, and events will prove that
unless the Whigs achieve more than they have yet per•
formed, or even promised, they will not long be able to
boast of Irish tranquillity, but will have to acknow-
ledge themselves as bad Hibernian pacificators as their
Tory opponents. We never were so unreasonable as
to think that a mere adjustment of the tithe system
(the Irish used to talk of total abolition in name and
reality,) as Mr. O'Connell now terms it, embracing a
plan of distant and trivial relief, would satisfy those
who have subjected themselves to considerable loss of
property, and lengthened incarceration, rather than
pay the smallest sum—neither did we think that Cor-
porate Reform, although art excellent measure, and
calculated to do a great deal of good, was likely to
improve, to any very considerable extent, the condition
of the most wretched population in the world. The
malady of the Irish nation lies deeper, and would
hardly be alleviated—still less removed, by such inno-
cent remedies. Mr. O'Connell has told us that there
are Three Millions of Beggars—aye, actual beggars
—..the majority of whom are able-bodied men—in Ire-
land. Gracious heaven I only think of three millions
of human souls seeking eleemosynary succour from
persons, many of whom are not in a much better
condition than themselves. Now, we would ask Mr.
O'Connell, is he prepared to propound any plan
whereby this frightful catalogue of human misery
may be diminished ? He must recollect that he may
praise Ministers even more than lie ever before abused
them, still this will neither feed or clothe the destitute
Irish paupers. We must confess that we would much
rather see some of the Liberal Irish Members engaged
in bettering the condition of their countrymen than
employed in the selfish, though good old Tory practice,
of providing for themselves or their relations. While
upon this subject we cannot forbear expressing our
sorrow at beholding Mr. Shiel's name cut so conspi-
cuous a figure in a Sunday journal, as a successful
applicant at Downing-street for Government favours.
We are not blind to the services of the Member for
Tipperary—nor will we deny that he is as well en-
titled as others to a share of the patronage of an Ad-
ministration which he efficiently supports; still we
will appeal to himself, whether such wholesale quar-
tering of _his relatives " at one fell swoop" upon the
public, can tend to advance the cause which both he
and ourselves profess to espouse. In Ireland we arc
sorry to learn that matters are proceeding much in the
same way—as a proof of which we regret to state,
that Lord Mulgrave has conferred a union, consisting
of three parishes in the diocese of Meath, upon a
single Whig Clergyman. We shall have more to say
upon this subject on a future occasion ; in the mean-
time we may mention that should it once be disco-
vered that the great cause of dispute betweeilWhigs
and Tories is pour la tripe, and not for principle—.the
popular confidence will be withdrawn pretty equally
from the two contending factions.—Morning Adver-
tiser of yesterday.
It is gratifying to discern any sense of shame on
the part of the supporters of the present Administra-
;ion. It would be too much to expect that this sense
should be ingeniously avowed—we must be content to
trace it in the twistings of a sophistical argument,
which is intended to appear to partisans as a vindica-
tion, and to be taken by adversaries as an apology.
To the honest and clear-sighted it will appear neither
one nor the other. It will merely be an indication
that the more cautious Ministerialists are ashamed of
their Irish alliance and policy, and afraid of its conse-
quences upon those in England whose support is still
necessary to the present Government. We allude to the
attempts which have been made since Mr. O'Connell's
Rochester exhibition to exonerate the Ministers from the
odium which they cannot help perceiving belongs to any
connection with that person. The reasoning of these
attempts is certainly curious, and if courteous readers
can but forgive the absence of all soundness and sin-
cerity it may have some interest. We do not think,
however, that it can have much political effect. The
union between Mr. O'Connell and the Ministry
arose—if we may believe the ingenious accounts of
the Ministerial writers—from a kind of necessity,
which is not very capable of any explanation beyond
a detail of the curious fact. It is admitted that "it

answered the pamphlet. And having read them, be
must say again, that he thought the charges which had
been brought against the Commissioners, were rash and
unfounded.—( Hear.)
The Earl of MANSFIELD said that the motion of
the Right Rev. Prelate had been withdrawn, in deference
to what was believed to be the opinion of the House but
this he (Lord Mansfield) knew full well, that many Noble
Lords had since regretted that circumstance. The motion
was not withdrawn, because there was not sufficient ground
laid fi)r it ; but because it was the opinion of many Noble
Lords at the time, that it would be better to withdraw it.
Lord HATHERTON was of opinion that the sugges-
tion of his Noble Friend at the head of the Government
was a very proper one, in order that when the motion for a
Committee was made, an answer might be given as regarded
the facts which were stated, if any answer could be fur-
nished. Such was the usual course of proceeding. He
begged to ask what their Lordships would think, if any
charge were about being brought as respected any abuse in
the army or navy, or the law, if no communication were pre-
viously made to the heads of those respective departments ?
—(Hear, hear.) He would appeal to the Noble Duke op-
posite (the Duke of Wellington) who had himself been at
the head of the army, if such a course would not be
adopted if the question for investigation was connected with
any charge affecting the army ? He would ask the Right
Rev. Prelate himself, if the matter affected the Church,
whether it would not be considered right to acquaint the
head of the Church with it ? He would ask the Right
Rev. Prelates whether in any question respecting the clergy
of the diocese of Exeter, he would not expect to be com-
municated with upon the subject ? It was undoubtedly the
practice to communicate with the heads of the depart-
ments on the subject of accusations affecting it, or any of
its members.
The Bishop of EXETER said the best answer which
he could give to the interrogatory put to him by. the
Noble Lord was that he had already mentioned that he
should mainly rely on his motion upon the statement which
he had previously made to the House ; but that he should
not be precluded from stating other facts which might
come to his knowledge between the present period and
the time that he should submit his motion next Session.
The conversation then dropped.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a petition
against the Scotch Universities Bill, but the place whence
it came was not heard in the Gallery.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented similar peti-
tions from the General Asssembly of the Church of Scot-
land, and the Under-graduates of King's-college, Aberdeen.
TITHE COMMUTATION BILL.
' The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the third
reading of the Tithe Commutation Bill.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, he had an amend-
ment to move on the ninth clause, to the effect that the
Commissioners, instead of being required to take an oath,
should merely make a declaration. As their Lordships
were opposed to the amendment, his object was not to
press it to a division ; but he was anxious that his motion
should be placed on the journals of the House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he was favour-
able to the amendment suggested by the Noble Duke. He
thought the dcclaration quite as much as it was necessary
to require from the individuals in question, more particu-
larly when it was considered that they would no doubt be
individuals of the highest character, and therefore entitled
to great confidence.
The amendment was then put and negatived.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE
several verbal alterations in the Bill were agreed to, after
which the Bill was read a third time and passed.
___ CHURCH OF IRELAND BILL.

taken in this House : at the same time it has been admit,
Led by such of your Lordships as are connected with that
part of the kingdom, and most distinctly admitted by a
Noble Loud whom I see opposite to me, who is partiew
lady connected with Ireland, and who in my opinion takes
a calmer and more dispassionate view of the question than
some others, that the compositions under Lord Stanley's
Act have been effected with so much haste, with so little
consideration, and with so little anxiety on the part of
those interested that great injustice has been done. In
the former compositions, I am informed there are some
which afe rdally so glaringly unequal and oppressive that
a provision of this kind is absolutely necessary. But the
provision is strictly guarded. You must prove to the
satisfaction of the Commissoners of Land Revenue, the
amount by which the composition exceeds the average
amount without a sufficient reason, or that some fraud,
or concealment, or misrepresentation, was resorted to by
the party on entering into such composition. ft appears,
to me, then, that this clause is a merely suppleinentai
clause, supplying a defect in the original Tithe ComPe'
sition Bill, and that it is the more unobjectionable inas'
much as relating to fraud it bears on that which is supposed
to vitiate all contracts ab initio. I trust that your Lord-
ships, adopting this view, will not listen to those who take
so strong an objection to this Bill. A Noble Lord whom
I see opposite made on a former occasion an elaborate
speech, arguing that though a power of appeal was give°
by the Tithe Composition Bill, yet few appeals had been
entered. That Noble Lord certainly stated accurately the
numbers lodged before the Privy Council, the number per-
fect, and the number in which any diminution had taken
place ; but that statement gave roundly a tenth of the
whole ; for such an appeal is surrounded with a great
many formalities, and if there was a failure in any one, if 1.
signature, for instance, had been withheld, then the appeal
would be informal, and could not be considered by the
Council. In so short a time as had elapsed, the parties
could not obtain knowledge or experience of the effect of
the compositions into which they had entered. They could
only have a cursory view of them, and could not know the
gross inequality of the arrangement. It appears to me, that
the argument founded on those objections does not apply
very forcibly to the subject. The next objects to which
this Bill is directed, are the distribution of the benefices in
Ireland, and the apportionment of their incomes with refer.-
cnce to the duties the incumbents have to perform. It can'
not now be necessary for me, on this subject, to make all
observations to your Lordships, for on looking at the jour'
nals of the other House I find that when the second read'
ing of this Bill was moved in that House, there was an
amendment moved to the effect that leave be given to
bring in a Bill for the conversion of the tithe- composition.
into a rent-charge, ivith_a view to the redemption thereof,
and for the better distribution of ecclesiastical revenues in
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The motion for leave to bring i°
that Bill was made by a Noble Friend of mine (Lord
Stanley), whose secession from the Government to which
I belonged, I have never ceased to lament, and whose
authority on the present occasion will doubtless have great
weight with your Lordships. In addition to this, some Pe'
titions were presented yesterday by a Right Rev. Prelate,
from the clergy of his diocese, In which a wish was
expressed for a better distribution of the revenues of the
Church with reference to the duties to be performed'
These circumstances, I say, my Lords, relieve me fro®
the necessity of stating to your Lordships any further
reasons in support of this part of the measure. I al
now speaking of only my own measures, an Ido not fee
called on to go into those measures that may be moved bf
any other Noble Lords ; whenever they are brought for'
ward, I shall give them the consideration they may deserve'
The measure I have to propose on this subject I will Pre'
ceed to describe :—it is to provide that his Majesty, under
his sign-manual, shall appoint a Committee of the Priv,'
Council in Ireland, to consist of Members of the Estah'
lished Church, at the head of whom will be the Archbisb°P
of Ireland ; and to this Committee the Ecclesiastical Corm
missioners, on a vacancy in any benefice, will report the
state of such benefice, its boundaries, the number of per'
sons of each religion in it, and the various circumstance%
that belong to its spiritual condition and welfare. These
matters being reported to the Ecclesiastical Commissioner*
that body will thereupon make a report to the Lord-lieute
nant in Council, and the Lord-lieutenant in Council win
thereupon make such order as to him shall seem good'
With respect to the third object of this Bill, namely, the
regulation of the income of the future incumbents, it 0
provided that where the number of the members 0'
the Established Church does not exceed- fifty the
annual income of the incumbent shall not exceed 1001.;
where the number exceeds fifty, but does not ex'
ceed 500, the income shall not exceed 2001., nor be less
than 150/. ; when the number exceeds 500, but does nei
exceed 1,000, the income shall not exceed 3004, or be less
than 2501. ; when the number exceeds 1,000, but does not L
exceed 3,000, the income shall not exceed 4001., nor be
less than 3001. In no case whatever is the income to ex'
ceed 5001. Thus the average amount of the incomes whiell„
it is proposed to give to the clergy of Ireland is•consideraW
larger than the average amount of the incomes at present
enjoyed by the Protestant clergy of England, where the
bulk of the people are members of the Church of England'
This clause also empowers the Lord Lieutenant, where the
Protestants exceed a thousand persons, to appoint one or
more curates, on the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical t
Commissioners, with a salary of 1001. a year each. :ri°
is the general arrangement we propose as regards tb
benefices of Ireland. It is necessary next to eonsider
for what number of benefices we have to provide, and
what means we have of providing for them.—[The Noble
Lord here read a statement, but with so much rapidity,
that we could not collect the details. We understood
him to estimate the amount of the Church revs'
nues at 461,9001., and to say that the number of the
benefices was 1,250. The proposed provision for the
clergy would amount to 386,5004, which, deducted from
the 461,900/. would leave a surplus of 75,400/.]
there is a surplus for you who have always wanted a
surplus.—(Much laughter.) Out of this surplus it is Pre;
posed to appropriate the sum of 50,0001. to the purposes
general moral and political education. My Lords, it 1186
been asserted that it is not within the competence of the
power of Parliament to take into consideration the state °,
the Church. That assertion appears to me the height of
absurdity.—(Hear.) The example of all nations, the roe'
tice of all mankind, set at nought that assertion in the most
unequivocal manner. There is no kingdom in EuroPeo
whatever its creed, whether it be of the Reformed Church,
or whether it still abide by the doctrines of Catholicism-'
whether it be Calvanistic, Lutheran, or Zuinglian—whether
its temporal Government be despotic or republican ; there
is no kingdom in Europe, or in the world, in which it hag
been found tolerable or possible to have the revenues of the
clergy in that state of accumulation at which, by the pie/
or superstition of past ages, it has gradually arrived.-7";._
(Hear, hear.) I therefore, my Lords, repeat my del
berate opinion, that to assert that it is not within the cony
petency of Parliament, within the power of the State, 0
take into practical consideration the affairs of the Church;
is as contrary to all practice and experience as it is to all
reason and common sense.—(Cheers.) At the same time
I admit that it is a question of the greatest importance'
and of very considerable difficulty, and one which ought
not to be mooted rashly, or except under difficult circuto;
stances, and in an extreme case. Those circumstances of
difficulty, that extreme case, however, I conceive to be
fully exhibited in the case of Ireland: in respect to her ,
religion, in respect to her population, in respect to the , [
condition of her people, I am sure your Lordships W'
admit that the case of Ireland is an extreme case, ana
one which calls for the serious consideration of Paha'
ment.—(Hear, hear.) lam well aware of the peculiar,
difficulties which surround this question in consequence 01
the state of religious parties in that country.—(Hear.)
Those peculiar difficulties, however, have so often been
brought before this House, that it is superfluous on InY
part now to state them to you. All I will observe upon
the point is, that I conceive the only way to deal with
those difficulties is to reduce the establishment of the
Church in Ireland within bounds in some degree commen.
surate with the duties which the clergy there have to per'
form, to the congregations which they have to serve--'
within the bounds of reason, and adapted to the general
advantages and general benefit of the people of that
country.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, having thus stated
the general provisions of' this Bill, I shall not now trouble
your Lordships with any further observations, but content
myself with moving that this Bill be now read a second
time.-----(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose and said--MI
Lords, although I believe I might state that, notwithstand'
ing the great length of time during which the Irish Church
has been labouring under the difficulties connected With
this question—though • I might state that the Clergy have
never been in so good a situation as they are at the present
moment, in consequence of the protection of the law which
which has been extended to the Clergy of the Irish Church
—(Hear)—though, my Lords, I might say that thii is the
case, I am not disposed to oppose the second reading. °(
this Bill, or to throw any difficulties in the way of its going
into Committee upon it, with a view to its future consicle' •
ration and amendment. My Lords, this being my position,
and seeing the very cool and moderate tone which has been
adopted by the Noble Viscount opposite—(Hear, hear) -r
upon this occasion, it is not my intention now to trouble
your Lordships with many observations. I shall follovf
the example which has been set by the Noble Viscount ;
indeed I will go further, and make but a very few remark'
even upon what the Noble Lord himself has stated with
regard to the measure. My Lords, I hope that your
Lordships will consider this Bill in a Committee. of thio
House, with a view to make in it such amendments as well
be more consistent with the interests of the Church, ?n'
with what I conceive the interests of the public. i
Lords, it is proposed by this measure to establish a refl..
charge in lieu of the present paymeneof tithes. Now,