The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-10 00:00:00

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On the ith of May next, will be published in one vol. Bvo.
MADAME TUSSAUD'S
MEMOIRS AND REMINISCENCES,
Edited by FRANCIS NERVE, Esq.
Author of "A Residence in Greece and Turkey," &c. &c.
Containing an account of her long residence in the Palace of
' Versailles, with the Princess Elizabeth, (sister to Louis the Six-
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Also records of conversations in which she was personally engaged
with Napoleon and other sovereigns of Europe; likewise with Vol-
taire, Rousseau, Mirabeau, Necker, La Fayette, Robespierre.
DantOn, Marat, &c. &c. Few persons perhaps now existing, who
can give a snore accurate account than herself of all that transpired
during the Revolution, her reminiscences being clear, her observa-
tions ever acute, whilst circumstances brought her in contact with
almost every remarkable character who figured in the revolutionary
annals.
Saunders and Otley, Conduit-street, Hanover-square ; and may
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square.

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Surgeon to the Westminster Hospital.
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CHURCH-RATES.

MEETING AT THE CITY OF LONDON TAVERN.
(Mr. O'CoNNELL in Continuation from our First Edition of Tuesday.)
The second count of his (Mr. O'Connell's) charge was that Dr. Chalmers
was blasphemous, and for this reason—that he wanted to do injustice.—
(Hear, hear.) Was it not a plain and palpable injustice to make him
(Mr. O'Connell) :pay for Dr. Chalmers' religion ?—(Cheers.) He ar-
raigned Dr. Chalmers of injustice. Dr. Chalmers thought his (Mr.
O'Connell's) opinions erroneous--he treated them with contempt. He
(Mr. O'Connell) forgave him.—(Cheers.) But if he were in power and
made Dr. Chalmers pay for the maintenance of opinions which he
would describe as damnable—if he were to say, " Dr. Chalmers
put your hands in your pockets, and pay two Popish priests for me"—
(Great cheering)—would not Dr. Chalmers roar out " Persecution,
martyrdom, injustice, blasphemy;"—(Continued cheers.) Oh, that he
would—and he would be quite right; but he (Mr. O'Connell) would say
to Dr. Chalmers, in Mr. Cobbett's phrase, " What's sauce for the
goose is sauce for the gander."—(Laughter and cheers.) The
Church had an income of four millions. Doctor Chalmers,
the high Presbyterian, came forward to say the people ought to pay
in addition to those four millions.—(Hear.) Nay, more. Ministers
who were not so firm as he wished them to be--(Cheers)—came out
with this plan ; they said it was true that Church-rates ought to be paid,
and that it was unjust to Dissenters to pay them; but that if the Church
became good stewards of their own property they had abundance to pay
all Church-rates without going to Dissenters. Besides, Dr. Chalmers
came all the way from Edinburgh to persuade the people of London that
this was the grossest robbery. They all remembered he who took the
lamb of another man's fold—(Hear, hear)—and those who came
out plundering—whether from the south or the north—(Laughter)—
would remember there was one of the Divine commandments written
upon the heart of man, before it was engravers upon stone, that com-
manded each human being to respect the property of another; and
therefore he (Mr. O'Connell) cared little whether they stole under the
shape of a warrant or under the penalty of transportation—whether it
was done by a mighty doctor and a great man made no difference in the
crime; it was stealing still, and was prohibited by the law of God.—
(Cheers) Dr. Chalmers insisted that the State should with money
maintain the Establishment. But what was to be the Establishment ?
He did not say it should be that which he thought right—(Hear, hear)
—because his own opinicn was that Episcopacy was not a Divine insti.
tution at all—(Hear, hear)—and he was descended of the men who
drew their broad swords when the English were going to force
bishops upon them—who actually cut the throats of bishops
—(Hear)—and yet here came Doctor Chalmers, with the blood
of the Cameronian martyrs upon him, to inform and instruct the gullible
Tories who had a natural propensity for putting their hands in the
people's pockets.—(Cheers and laughter.) If there was any justification
for paying for an Establishment, it was because it was the true religion ;
but Dr. Chalmer's said, this was not the true religion, but the people
must nevertheless pay for it.—(Cheers.) He said " Propagate error;
it is only a matter of religion ; what is such a trifle ; right or wrong, pay
your money ;" and then having insisted upon this for England he
turned to Scotland, and boasted <I the independence of the Scotch
Church—(Hear)—and then alluded to Ireland, and made it appear that
the Establishment was a majority of the nation. If, in respect to Ire.
land Dr. Chalmers should say, let the State support the religion of the
majority, he (Mr. O'Connell) would give him such an—" Oh '." that
they should hear him from Dublin to this room.—(Loud cheers and
laughter.) Such a proposal was made by Mr. Pitt, but
the people said No; and up to this day they had con-
tinued to say no—(Cheers)—and his opinion was that they could
not give his religion a more deadly blow than by wedding it to the
State, and looking up to the Government for patronage.—(Loud cheers.)
In England, Dr. Chalmers was wrong upcn his own confession—in
Scotland by the voice of the universal people—aed in Ireland they would
tell hire he was wrong if he presumed to teach his false doctrine there.
Wishing the Dc,ctor joy there on his way back to Edinburgh, he (Mr.
O'Connell) would ask, why did the Dotter dare to say that religious feel.
ing had been relaxed—that it was necessary for the support of the hier-
archy to have a State provision made for it. He (Mr. O'Connell) totally
denied this. If the Doctor appealed to English history, he would meet
him there and tell him that the first rate which was laid was in the reign
of Henry the Sixth, for the repair of the nave of the Church of Nor.
with. Were the people of England without Churches at that time ?
There were not quite 11,000 Churches of the Establishment, and there
were 33 of that number of Dissenting Meeting-houses, including Catholic
chapels.—(Hear, hear.) So that within thirty.tive of one-half of the
places of worship were maintained on the voluntary principle; and
this was, as they would say in Ireland, the biggest half.—(Laughter)—
for it was the better half.—(Hear.) He did not mean to give effence to
any one, but must say that he had seen more attention paid to religion
among the Dissenters, than among tee Members of the Establishment.
—(Hear, beer.) But if there wore only as much among the poorer as
among the. richer Churches, there was an end of the question. The richer
class might do as they would, and Dr. Chalmers was not only mistaken,
but guilty of a falsity of the worst description.—(Cheers.) Before the
time he had mentioned, there were 55,000 Churches in England, and
about 35,000 Chapels of E 550. At that time there was no tax for
building Churches at all. He would say to the people of England,
Get justice for yourselves, as we did." What was the state of Ire-
land ? There were 6,500,000 Roman Catholics. Had that Church any
endowments? Did the State pay Id. to it. There were four Archbishops,
`25 Bishops besdes, upwards of 80 Deacons and- Archdeacons, more
than 400 Parish Priests and Curates—a regular hierarchy. What
country maintained them ? The poorest country in Europe. What
population maintained them? The poorest population in Europe. If
there should be sufficient prejudice in any man's mind to say tin
was error, he (Mr. O'Connell) should say he was not here as a po.
lemie—(theers)—lie was here to state a fact, and was it not a pow.
erful argument to those who might urge that his religion was error,
_y If error had done so much what ought not truth to do ?
eers.)—Mr. O'Connell then alluded to what has recently taken
in Stoke Newington. Within the last ten days since Dr. Chal-
mers had blown his trumpet, the parsons had taken courage. "Oh I
' id they) here is a man that will bother them all—we have got the
Cez
' ty wizard of the Nor.h—(Laughter)—here is a white witch
the Hcbrides—(Roars of Laughter and cheers)—end while
he is getting a number of people to turn up their eyes towards
Heaven, cur hands can more easily get into their pockets."—(Continued
laughter and cheers.) Was it the word of God that these worthies ap..
pealed to ? Oh, no—it was the parish beadle, the constable, or a
aarghter Divine still—the neighbouring magistrate—;Laughter)—and
pimeng the Royal arms at the head of one of their plundering warrants,
in the name of the Queen, who, dear little lady —(Loud cheers and
laughter)—had noshing at all to do with it—with this formidable lion
and unicorn they went round, and in Stoke Newington alone, within
the lest ten days, not less than 53 distresses had been issued.—(Loud
cheers) " Dr. Chalmers," exclaimed the Hon. Member, " there is the
effect of your preaching—every man who is &strained °nought to put
Dr. Chaliners's name over his door—(Cheers and laughter)—there can be
no religion (says he) unless the lien and unicorn, and the constable are
going to your houses. Here are his preachers, the supporters of his re-
ligion, the lion and unicorn (holding up a warrant to the meeting amidst
roars of laughter), and thus I repeat I have made good my charge against
him.—(Great cheering.) I have arraigned the culprit—lie has refustd
to give the usual answer, and he will not be tried either by God
or by his country.—(Long continued cheering.) He will be tried
by his prejudices, and justified in the eyes of the overwhelming party,
who give the honest confession that they are confident of the insecurity
of the Establishment they are so anxious to protect.—(Cheers.) Dces
it not bespeak a'kind of foregone conclusion in their minds that they have
not the power and Crsnath of trots with their, and that is a conscious
weakness that makes them bring in the arms of Mammon to support the
religion of God.—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member then moved—l
" That the recent decision of an Ecclesiastical Court in the Braintrees,
case. together with the intolerant spirit which has been manifested to.l
wards the Dissenters, are signs of the times that show the approach of al
crisis which must rivet or break the chains of ecclesiastical tyranny, and'
indicate to all the friends of genuineliberty, and above all to the Proa!
testant Dissenters of England, the necessity of merging all party con-
siderations in this great absorbing question ; a question which in.
volves the freedom and independence of all the Churches in the land.
This meeting therefore call upon the entire liberal public to co-operate
with them, in their parochial capacity, in all cases to resist by every con-
atitutional and legal mewls, the making of a rate, and in their capacity ofd
lectors to observe the votes of their representatives."—Mr. O'Connellni
then alluded to the manner in which Church-rates had been extinguished'
in Ireland. The people of Ireland determined not to pay them—(Cheers)
—and that was all he wanted the people of England to do.—(Continued
cheers.) He trusted that the meeting would not to be led away by any
false statements or speeches which had been attributed to him, as in
the case of the Standard newspaper, which, after appealing to God for
its butt), gave a set of evidence, question and answer, as given by him;
and when this was repeated in the House of Lords by the Earl of Win..
chilsea, who had quoted the Standard, they could not account for who
had invented the report.—(Loud laughter.) The Hon. Member con.
eluded by saying—Englishmen never yet degraded themselves, by sub.
witting long to the yoke of injustice. The enlightened members of the
Establishment are with you—the Dissenters are with you—the Roman
Catholics are with you—the people that you ought to respect and desire
to have your friends, are with you. Be true to yourselves—
" Hereditary bondsmen, know ye not,
Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow."
The Hon. Gentleman then resumed his seat, amidst loud and enthu.
siastic applause.
The CHAIRMAN at this period left the room, accompanied by Mr.
O'Connell, and several other persons : and
Mr. PEAKS was then called to the Chair.
Mr. CHILDS, of Bungay, next addressed the meeting, in support of
the resolution. In large places it was easy to carry out the prin.
ciple which the majority supported, but in small places the
people were in fear of the aristocracy; and their only plan
was to be passive, and let the Churchwardens take their own way.
The summons was addressed to him, and to his son and himself, for
rates varying from 2s. lid. to 7s. 2}t'..—(Shame.) Li Bungay the goods
that were seized had not yet been sold, and the constable could not
learn from the churchwardens orMagistrates what to do with them. They
would go on resisting the rate in the same way, and if the same spirit
were exhibited throughout the country, they would succeed.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to Doctor Chalmers, his early conduct had
shown, and his present conduct confirmed, that he did not -know
what spirit was in him.—(Hear.) He first began lecturing
on political economy ; then on moral philosophy ; but when he
got into a place where there was a Church supported by compulsory
Church-rates, he became the champion of that system. The Rev.
Doctor was an advocate for abolishing the monopoly of printing the
Bill, but he proposed to give the profits to the Church, so that in
giving a testament to a child, you would be giving 4d. as a Church.
rate—(Hear, hear)—and if he succeeded in Scotland the same thing
would be done in England, and Church-rates continued in that
form.—(Hear, hear.)
The Rev. JOHN BURNET, amidst vehement cheering, moved the next
resolution, which was—

"4. That the thanks of this Meeting are due, and are hereby given
to the Committee, for their arduous and successful labours since their
appointment, and that they be requested to continue their services with
power to add to their number."

He asked, why was it that in this age it was necessary to ask the Com.
mittee to continue their labours ? Because this question was not yet
" settled. But look to the way in which the Churchmen of England
viewed the present state of the question, might be known from the fact
that they had called into their service one, of great talents certainly, but
whom they regarded as the emissary of an unordained and unlicensed
Church.—(Hear, hear.) When they saw the two Church Establish-

merits, which call each other Sectarian, Presbyterianism and Black Pre.
lacy united in such a manner, the voluntaries might be sure
their object was not very far from being attained. If such were not
the case, the Pishops would not be seen sitting under a man who gloried
in the independence of that Crown, under which they were placed.—.
(Hear.) The Doctor had proved the voluntary system to be the best,
and ail his auditors, royal and episcopal were all voluntaries.—(fiear,
and lau3hter.) Mr. B. then went through a review of Dr. Chalmer's
distinction between external and internal voluntaryism. The Doctor's
statement that state support was only a delusion.—(Hear, hear.) But,
when the voluntaries applied to their neighbours for assistance, they
solicited only what they chose to give in charity, and that was only fair.
But when Dr. Chalmers would go to Government for 10,0002. it was
not for their voluntaryism he asked but for their force.—(Applause.)
Dr (2. had admitted that a church establishment meant themaintenance

of a church by law.—(hear, hear.) The question with the Dr. was a
question of money, not of religion—(flear)—the Doctor had said that the
voluntaries wanted to take the churches from the establishment.—
(Laughter.) it was no such thing, all he wanted was to let
churcim,,— - let them support them, and repair
.(Hear, hear, hear.) As to what
ie machine breakers of Kent and the
Ingham, they knew what he meant to
dissenters (like those lawless persons)
that is the Establishment, that they
rn work.—( A laugh.) But the truth
It that resembled a stocking weavEr,
but in his own loom, though he found

it working very awkwardly, and would have no stockings worn but his
own, though nobody would buy them—or he wanted to make people
pay for his stockings whether they wore them or not.—(Laughter.
But as for those names of " machine-breakers," &c., which the Learned
Doctor applied, with so much dignity and Christian charity to the
advocates of the voluntary system, he (Mr. B.) would not retort them—
(Hear, hear)—but he might, if he chose, break them into small change,
and return them to the:Doctor, saying that they properly belonged to him
—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As to her Majesty's Ministers, he almost
believed that some persons thought they were really asleep, and feared
that the attempt of Dr. Chalmers to mend his awkward stocking.loom
would disturb their rest. But for his part he (Mr. B.) thought that
the friends of the voluntary system ought to speak their mind, and if
the Ministry did not do the good worthily, why struggle to keep them
in office ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not agree with those who thought
that others might not be got to do it ; and who thought that if they
retired from office the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel would
take office, and would hold it. When Sir Robert Peel, who was the
greatest statesman in the world—( A laugh)—and the Duke of Welling-
ton, who was as undoubtedly the greatest general, came last into office,
and had gathered all their forces—what did they do? Why, like
" The King of France, with twenty thousand men,
Went up the hill, and then—came down again."

—(Loud and long continued laughter.) That was the only
march in the whole of the Duke's military career in which he
thorougly failed—(Hear and a laugh)—and if they (the present Mi-
nisters) succeeded in beating him on that occasion why not try it again ?
—(Hear, hear.) He called on the meeting to watch the proceedings
of the Committee of the House of Commons, who might be as sleepy as
other Committees had been, or even as the Ministers.—(A laugh.) He
vindicated the advocates of the voluntary system from the imputations
sought to he thrown upon them, for their uniting with the Papists for
justice; and contended that those were not acting in the spirit of
Christianity who would deny justice to Papists, because their religious
opinions were erroneous.—(Hear, hear.) He would unite with all in
the cause of justice, whatever might be their errors or faults—for he
would always stand forward for justice for every human being from the
head that wore the Crown to the lowest executioners of the law.—
(Hear.) If the whole force of the Government were opposed to the abo-
lition of the Church-rate, the march of intellect, the growing power of
the public will, and the determination of the people, would abolish it.—
(Applause.) The Government which, in considering this question,
would wait to see whether there was a surplus of Church property or
not, and would look upon the question as anything but a religious one,
was unworthy of governing the destinies of the nation, The Rev. Gen-
tleman sat down amidst the loudest applause.
Mr. WIRE (the Under Sheriff) seconded the resolution, and
called upon the Dissenting Ministers to preach to their flocks upon the
religious nature of this question, and urge them to procure the abolition
of the Church-rate. The Clergy of the Establishment preached on the
opposite side, and why should the Dissenters be afraid to imitate their
example.—( Applause.)
The resolution was carried unanimously, and amidst much cheering.

In consequence of the lateness of the hour, a prepared resolution of
thank. to the Chairman (who had retired), was not put, but instead of
it three cheers were given, and the meeting separated.

COURT OF ALDERMEN.

On Tuesday a Court was held for the despatch of business.
TIIE CORONATION.

Sir P. LAURIE wished to be informed whether application had been
made by the proper officer for the accommodation of the Lord tlayor
and Aldermen with seats in Westminster Abbey on the day of the
Coronation of her Majesty. It was not his intention to go into the
question whether it was proper that there should or should not be a
banquet ; but as it was incumbent upon the members of this Court,
accordirg to the terms of the proclamation, to be present at the cere.
mon y, he considered it to be necessary that care should be taken to pro-
vide the adequate accommodation.
The Loan Mayou said it appeared to him, that as the Coronation
Banquet was dispensed with, all that was necessary was, that the Re.
membrancer should apply to the Earl Marshal for the customary seats
for those who should attend from that Court.

Sir P. LAURIE observed, that the members must attend as a matter of
obligation, and not of favour. The question involved a right which
they could not consistently relinquish.
Mr. WOODTHORPE (the Town-clerk) said that the Court would no
doubt act upon the precalent of William IV. in the course they would
pursue with reference to the attendance at the Abbey. The details of
the preparations were entered in the books, and the Remembrancer, who
was at the House of Commcns, was acting according to the directions
there laid down.

Sir C. SNrEtt said that it was incumbent upon the Court to see
that all the necessary forms which had been observed in the reign of
Henry VII., and indeed anterior to that reign, should be strictly adhered
to on the approaching Coronation. It struck him that the Coronation of
George IV., and not that of William IV., should be adopted as a pre_
cedent, and the Court ought to apply to the Earl Marshal for the usual
summons to the members to attend. They were bound to transmit their
privileges in a perfect state to those who should succeed them. His (Sir
C. Hunter's) years secured him, he was sure, from the imputation of
being influenced by any motive, except that of preserving entire the pri-
vileges of the citizens of London.
Alderman TuompsoN moved that the minutes of the proceedings on
the Coronation of William IV. should be read, and said that the Court
was certainly under the obligation to be governed by the precedent of
that day.
Mr. Woodthorpe read the minutes, from which it ap;eared that the
services of the Lord Mayor and Aldermen having Leen dispensed with,
the Renlimbrancer, in the names of his Lordship and his brother Al.
dermen, applied for seats in the Abbey to witness the Coronation, and
seats were accordingly provided for them and the Sheriff's.
Alderman TI10:111`0V proposed that the Remernbrancer should be re-
quested to write a letter to the Earl Marshal for similar accommodation,
and stated that he was positive the claims or posterity would not be pre,
judiced by such a course.
Sir G. CARROLL (the Sheriff) informed the Court that he had called
at the office of the Earl Marshal upon the subject of the admission of
the Sheriff's and their ladies, and he was informed there that the Re-
mernbrancer had written cn the subject of the accommodation of seats
for the Lord Mayor and Aldermen.

Sir C. S. lluxTEa persevered in recommending that for the sake of
the preservation of the privileges of the citizens of London, the Court
should apply to the Earl Marshal for the summons to attend according
to the anc.eut authorities. In that commons Was a command from the
Sovereign to those to whom it was addressed, " to come" to the coro-
nation, and the minutes of the proceedings at the Coronation of George
IV. showed that upon that occasion a similar command was issued.
Mr. WOODTHORPE.—As the services of the Lord Mayor and Alder-
men are dispensed with In consequence of the arrangement that there
is to be no banquet, no command of the kind was considered necessary,
but the Lord Mayor and Aldermen will be provided with seats in the
Abbey, as was the case at the Coronation of William IV., to which the
approaching ceremonial is to be assimilated as closely as possible.
Alderman Bnowx said that no command was issued, because no ser-
vice was required ; and, if the members of the Court were disposed to
be at the Coronation at all, they would ask for the summons.
It was finally agreed that the arrangements should be left to the Re-
membrancer.

CILTSPUIZ-STREET COMPTER.

Alderman WILSON said, that the Deputies of the several wards of

'he City were very much annoyed at an order which had been issued by

the Police Committee, prohibiting the continuance of the practice of
sending prisoners to the Giltspur Street Compter after ten o'clock at
night.

The Court, after some private discussion, directed that the order

should not be carried into execution.

Alderman T. WOOD then gave notice of motion to the Court to pre-
vent the officers from taking prisoners to Giltspur-street Compter atter
ten o'clock at night ; and to recommend to each ward the propriety of
making secure places of custody for prisoners upon their apprehension.
Several members animadverted upon the miserable watch-houses in
the wards, and Alderman Thomas Wood's motion will no doubt operate
In remedying so great an evil.
THE ORDIN MY OF NEWGITE.

Sir P. LAraTE produced a letter from the Ordinary of Newgate, ex-
pressing that venerable man's wish to retire from the onerous and
arduous duties of his office, which he had filled 524 years. The letter
was addressed to Sir Peter, who wished to refer it to the Police Com-
mittee, and hoped that the Court would provide for Mr. Cotton's old age.
Alderman BROWN said, the letter was not a resignation of the office,
and the Court could not come to any understanding with the Ordinary,
except he positively gave up the situation. Surely the Ordinary could
not suppose that the Court would not act with a just liberality to.
wards him.

Alderman WILSON said, that in consequence of Mr. Cotton's long no-
tice of his intention to retire from office, gentlemen had come from Cam-
bridge to canvass for the situation, and a great deal of inconvenience
had been experienced. If he intended to retire he ought to say so at
once, and leave it to the Court to make arrangements on account of his
past services.
Sir. P. LAURIE was of opinion that Mr. Cotton would not retire with.
out the assurance that the Court would make hi:n a liberal allowance.
The letter was then withdrawn.
THE CORONER'S FEES.

The LORD MAYOR informed the Court that he had received a letter
from Mt. Payne, the Coroner for the City of London and borough of
Southwark. It stated, that at the quarter sessions for Southwark the
Magistrates had made an order upon the Treasurer of the county of
Surrey for the payment of sums of money expended by the Coroner in
holding inquests as Coroner for the borough of Southwark, under the
statute of the Ist of Victoria; that the Treasurer had declined to obey
the order under the directions of the Magistrates of the quarter sessions,
and informed the Coroner that the opinion of Counsel should be taken
upon the subject, and that no answer could be given until next
quarter sessions arrived. The letter concluded by stating, that the
Coroner made the communication to the Court, as the question ap-
peared to be one of jurisdiction between the borough and the county
justices.

Alderman T. Woon said that the Court had nothing to do with the
question. The Coroner's fees were regulated by Act of Parliament, and
Mr. Payne knew how to proceed.

Alderman BROWN said that the Court could not at all interfere, for
the Coroner was appointed not by the Court of Aldermen, but by the
Court of Common Council.

The communication was ordered to be laid on the table.
THE SHERIFFS FOR THE ENSUING YEAR.
The LORD MAYOR exhibited a list of the following gentlemen to be
put in nomination at the Common hall at Midsummer.day for the office
of Sheriffs of the city of London and Sheriff of the county of Middle-
sex :—Mr. Josiah Wilson, citizen and clothworker ; Mr. Ambrose
Moore, citizen and weaver ; Mr. Edward Dalton, citizen and draper ;
Mr. Joseph Fletcher, citizen and merchant-tailor; Mr. Charles Curtis,
citizen and draper; Mr. John Worthington, citizen and draper; and
Mr. W. M. Christie, citizen and feltmaker.
Mr. Josiah Wilson and Mr. Moore, the brother and cousin of Alder.
man Wilson, who will be elevated to the civic chair next November,
will, it is reported, be elected by the Livery. They are gentlemen of the
highest respectability.

we churchmen keep them, and
tart at their own expense.—(
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