The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-12 00:00:00

the bat °ugh population %vete fist taken out of it. How
could the Noble Lord call on the Committee to deal with
twenty-five counties in the gross, when he was unable to
explain in what way he should deal with any one parti
cular county? It might he very Well to say that that
should be left to the Commissioners. But would the
county Members be satisfied to leave the division to these
gentlemen ? The Noble Lord seemed to b particularly
anxious not to tie down the Commissioners by any strict
or inflexible rule ; hot then he said that their ierard
should be submitted to the King, and should not be va"id
until it received leis apprebation. It the King should in
any case not approve of the proceeding of the Commis-
sioners, tv6t was then to lee done? Was there to be no
division? The Committee ought to be in possession of
the tarts of every case in this schedule, as well as in all
the former schedules. The Bill had been so long in Com-
mittee, that his Majesty's Ministers ought certainly to
have put themselves in rossession of all the facts respect-
ing each county to be divided. If the collection of those
facts would have been attended with expense, that cc!,
ought to be incurred, to collide them to state at
once to the Committee the divisions which tiny proposed
gain I:e in each county. Ti•e Noble Lord ought to be aware
that there were counties in which—the voters in the
town; having been taken away—there was scarcely an)
thing left for a constituency, even without dividing the,„).
He would mention as an instance the county of Durham.
if he :night do so without hieing supposed to mean any
thing uncivil. —( A dingle.) In making distinetionsbetweeri
those !arts of counties which had large towns in them,
a new difficulty would be occasioned by the circumstance
that some large towns were to have representatives, the
voters in them being abstr dcted front the county consti-
tuency ; and whilst othd r towns, being unrepresented
themselves, should continue to lee reckoned part of the
county population. As the Government bad gone so far
into popular representation, he thought that they ought to
pause before they entirely destroyed the influence of the
Aristocracy over the elections her counties. He would
maint ein, that in supporting the proposed division of
counties, the Howie would he voting upon a reduced con-
stituency, for in most of those counties affected by the. di-
vision, towns had been enfranchised in such a manner as
to include a large portion of the old county electors. He
should most decidedly object tee the powers of the proposed
Commise,ionees being final, and without any revision on the
part of Parliament. He would put it to the House, whe-
ther such a division, so much under the direction of Com-
missioners, was not imparting to the Executive Govern.
went a power which no Administration d eight to possess?
It might be very well if the Commissioners were directed
to obtain information, and turn their attention to the most
eligible mode of division, and having done that, make a
report, leaving the Ildiuse to decide ultimately upon each
individual so proposed ; in fact, the Home mull never
form a correct judgment respecting any of the counties
divided, unless the whole matter were entered into in de-
tail; and it was to him, he confessed, a matter of the
greatest surprise, that the Noble Lord who introduced the
present measure did not favour the Hotne with a Bill, and
a minute account of its several provisions, with which it
WIIS to be presumed he was perfectly conversant.
The question having been put en the clause respecting
the division of counties,
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES rose to move an amend-
ment, of which he had given notice. He observed, that
it was perfectly pcssible so to divide counties, as to convert
each portion into a nomination division, making it a; close
as any borough ever was ; and effecting the divisions by
means of Commissioners would be an arrangement im-
parting a most unjust and unreasonable power to the Home
Office. Another objection which he had to the division
of counties in the manner contemplated would be, that it
must inevitably lead to the introduction of the system of
voting by ballot ; for, without that, no roan could be free
from the undue influence of his Lordship; yet there was
nothing he should contemplate with more apprehension
than the ballot. The Hon. Member concluded by moving
the erasure of all words referring to, or affecting the division
of counties.
Lord AI.THORP said, that the question which had
been rids d on the present occasion was one of great im-
portance, and well deserved the serious attention of the
Committee; but if he consented to the proposed amend-
ment, it would be consenting to an alteration far greater
than he uas sure any supporter of the Bill generally would
sanction. The lion. Member had contended that the
ballot must be the consequence of the division, owing to
the undue influence of landlords which he apprehended,
but which apprehension, he most say, appeared tee him
totally groundless. The probable effect of the division did
appear tee hien to have been greatly exaggerated, though it
was not to be denied, that when the division took place, indi-
viduals would have more power in districts than they ever
would have in counties at large, yet no individual could expect
to return two for a division, though he might fora county
having four representatives. The object of the Bill was not to
diminish .but to regulate the influence of property, and
while it conferred Members upon the poptdaion of the
towns, to take care that the 'Lateral influence of the landed
interest was not destroyed or improperly diminished. The
object of the arrangement under consideration was not to
let the increased influence of the town put an end to that
due share of aristocratical influence which ought to be
preserved in the Constitution. Now no influence could
be maintained by threat—those who aimed at it must
render themselves in some degree popular. He never could
sufficiently urge the objections which pressed upon his
mend against four Members being elected for a county at
drge by the whole of the electors. In most of such cases,
were they to occur, public attention would be exclusively
fixed upon two or three of the candidates, and nothing
would he more likely than that one at !east would get in
by private and undue influence. Once more lie must re-
peat his determination to resist any alteration in this part
of the Rill ; and certainly the amendment would be a very
marked alteration in the Bid as submitted to that House,
sent forth to the country, and approved by the country.—
(Cheers.) He really conceived the alteration to lee such
as the Government ought nett to consent to, and as the
majority which was carrying the Bill through the House
ought not to sanction, and he, therefore, trusted that the
House would not support the Hon. Gentleman in his
proposition.

_
Mr. GORE LANGTON said a few words, which were
perfectly inaudible.

Mr. D. GILBERT said no man could be more friendly
to the present clause than he was. Since it became ne-
cessity to increase the county representation, it was equally
necessary to divide the counties. He was likewise friendly
to that species of. influence which had been described. He
did not wish .to trouble the House at any length, consi-
dering how precious its time was. There was, however,
an alteration which be wished to see introduced, and
which he must now beg leave to mention. He dad not
desire to take away the franchise from the forty-shilling
freeholders, but he did wish to see it somewhat assimi-
lated to the system which prevailed in Ireland. He thought
all forty-shilling freeholds of inheritance should hare a
vote, but all other', he conceived, ought to stand on the j

warm footing of qualification with copyholtis—that is, the
amount of qualification for copyholders should he required
for all freeholds not being of inheritance.
Mr. CRIPPS observe 1, that it would be perfectly pos-
sible to arrange the divisions se as to secure all the advan-
tages anticipated anti none :if the inconveniences.
Mr. .1. G. VERNON addressed a few words to the
Committee, but in so low a tone as not to reach the gal-
lery. We undeestood him to express himself warmly in
favour of the Bill, and to say that in stating that to be his
opinion, he did but echa the sentiments of the great ma-
jority of his constituents.
Sir R. PEEL said, that considering the question ab-
stractedly, he had the greatest aversion to the division of
the counties, as it woula be breaking down one of the
oldest land-marks of the country. When he had heard the
statement of the Noble Member for Yorkshire (Lord Mor-
peth), as to keeping the former divisions of Yorkshire, he
was not surprised at the general feeling that existed against
these new divisions of the country; they were divisions
which were as old as the time of Alfred, and had as much
claim for reverence as many others of the same standing,
to talk of the destruction of which would almost sound
like sacrilege in the ears of every true lover of his country.
In some respects they might be looked upon as the division
of Holland and the Netherlands, for it would be disuniting
those who, for a long series of years, had been identified by
the same interests and the same feelings. Let then, take
the county of Stafford fur instance. When this division
took place, he who belonged to No. I Stafford would have
a different interest from him who belonged to No. 2
ford ; they would no longer have the same identity of
feelings as natives of the same county, which had before
existel among therm It was true that all this might be
ii nouneed as so much prejudice ; so it was, perhaps ; but,
at the same time, those feelings existed, and it was
part of those feelings which had always made Englishmen
so ready to defend the Constitution of the country. Ano-
ther provision of the Bill which he most seriously lamented
was, that the division of the counties was to be vested in
Commissioners, and not in the House of Commons itself.
—(Cheers.) This he thought objectionable in the highest
degree; and if they had been heretofore jealous of per.
miffing any one to interfere with their elections, how much

more so ought they now to be, when these Commissioners
~vere to decide the division of twenty-six of the largest
counties in England—(Cheers)—not one of which Com-
missioners probably would be chosen from the House, and
whose decision was to he so peremptory, that they were