The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

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fainly heard it ; and whethar it were or were not by con-
t. parties certainly dad unite, Ministers were left in a
traraviry, and we thought proper to resign. This I beg
I-ave to state, however; that the question of Parliamentary
Reform hid no more to do with our re,ignation that it
had to do with any other part of my conduct. We were
out-soted on Monday, and next morning I resigned ; and
for this reason ; I would not expose his Majesty and the
country to the inconvenience of being out-voted on the
subject of Reform in Parliament. There is the truth. I
repeat it : we resigned on Tuesday, because we did not
choose to expose the King and the country to the incon-
venience of our being defeated, as we should probably have
been, on the question of Reform.—(Hear.) We resigned
because we did not enjoy the confidence of the House of
Commons, and it was not worth my while to continue in
office a day longer with the chance cf being again out-
voted. I now come to the circumstances under which
his Majesty's present Ministers came into office. On the
first thy the Noble Earl came down to this House and
stated, that he took office upon three principles-1. Re-
trenchment-2. Peace-3. Parliamentary Reform, As
to the two first—retrenchment and peace, there is, I ap-
prehend, no difference between the Noble Earl and myself.

It has turned out that not a sixpence is to he retrenched
by the Nob!e Earl and his colleagues ; and they have, I
believe, admitted that in point of economy we have
done all that could be done. As to peace also, I hope
I may say that the Noble Earl found every thing in such
a train as to enable him to avoid hostilities with all the
world. Upon some minor points there might be differ-
ences ; but this I must oberee, that rather than run the
risk of putting the Noble Earl in a situation of difficulty,
I never would consent that even a question should be put
to him here regarding our foreign relations.—(Cheers.)
No man desires more earnestly than I do the prosperity
and permanence of the Noble Earl's Government—not,
indeed, out of personal attachment to himself but out of
regard to the interests of the country, which must be ma-
terially injured by rapid and sudden changes.—(Hear.)—
Next, as to the third point—Parliamentary Reform. It
seems that the present Ministers obtained the consent of the
King, and the King's name has been used upon the ques-
tion not only by persons who were not authorised, but
upon improper occasions. True it is that they have the
sanction of his Majesty for this particular measure; but
to say that the King is bound for more than following the
recommendation of his constitutional advisers, is holding
language improper in this place, and I believe not exactly
founded in fact.—(Hear, hear.) Let us look, then, first,
what the measure ought to be ; and secondly, what it is.
It ought to be a measure to enable the Government
to carry on the service of the King in Parliament ac-
cording to the Constitution established at the Re-
volution. His Grace then proceeded to examine how
the Constitution had worked, as far as regarded the
House of Commons, from 1688 to the present time.
He contended that the business had been carried on
most satisfactorily by a conjunction of persons of pro-
perty, talent, and knowledge of all kinds, representing all
the great interests of the kingdom, and that for 140 years
they had promoted the prosperity and maintained the glory
of the British nation. If, then, such a House of Commons
—so constituted and so gifted—were to be destroyed, it
was the duty of Ministers to take care that it was suc-
ceeded by a representative body which would give to the
King's Government the necessary support. His Grace
then examined the provision, of the Bill, especially as it
regarded Hampshire, and the towns of Winchester, Christ-
church, Southampton, and Lymington, and a number of
other places that would not he represented excepting in the
general mass of the representation. With regard to the
great body of the electors, he observed that they would be
chiefly shopkeepers; and he asked lel:ether it was fit that
they should be the persons to return Members to the Great
Council of the Nation, which was to take into considera-
tion the domestic, foreign, colonial, landed, commercial,
and manufacturing interests in the nation.--(Hear.) He
had heard of the establishment of a Committee in London
to point out proper Members for the great towns in the
country. He did not believe that it was already formed ;
but he did believe that it could be constituted ; and then
he wished to know whether it was fit that such an uniform
sy stem of representation should be adopted, as would enable
a Committee in London to dictate Members for Leeds or
Manchester ? He adverted to what, of his own know-
ledge, had occurred in France on the subject of the election
law since 1817. Two charges bad subsequently been
m ale in that law, and two general elections had taken
place, each more unfavourable to the Government ; and
the result had been the formation of a Parliament with
which it was impossible for any Ministers to co-operate.—
He denied that he had been in any way connected with
the French Ministers ; that he had ever written to Prince
Polignac ; to Charles X., previous to his abdication ; or to
any Member of the French Cabinet, without the knowledge
and participation of his colleagues. He would, therefore,
tell the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, that he had no more
to do with the French Government than the Noble Lord
himself—pet haps not so much.--(Laughter.) These pro-
ceedings in France had rendered a revolution inevitable. He
wished that the House would advert to what was the business
of Government in Parliament. The business of the Go-
vernment went to everything. It was not long since they
had heard the Learned and Noble Lord on the Woolsack
propose on his own account a new judicial system. He
could tell them that it would be impossible for the Go-
vernment to decide on that question ; but if there was a
Reformed Parliament, it would be found that the Noble
and Learned Lord would be too strong for the Govern..
ment on that question. Iu the same manner there was
not a question affecting the trade, manufacture, or the
Corn Laws, that was not especially the business of the
Government ; and he wanted to know how the Govern-
ment would be able to carry on those questions after the
Parliament had been returned in this manner? With re-
spect to the question of tithes and of the Established
Church, much difficulty would present itself. The duty
of Government on this head appeared to him to be clearly
pointed out. In the first place they had the King's Co-
ronation Oath ; in the next they had the Act of Union
with Scotland and the Act of Union with Ireland, both of
which required that the Church of England should be
the Established Church in England and in Ireland. Now
he wanted to know how the Established Church was to
be maintained after the election of Members of Parlia-
ment was to be placed on this footing ? He did not
wish to carry the argument further than it would go, but
the affairs of Government were so complicated, they were
so bound up with Acts of Parliament, Charters, and Cor-
porations, that it was quite impossible for a Ministry to go
into Parliament, unless they were certain that they had
with them a majority to support those establishments. He
inferred from all this, that the Constitution of this country
could not, in a reformed Parliament, be carried on as it
hitherto bad been carried on. lie did not mean to say that the
Crown of England would not last. It certainly might be re-
stricted to the army, the navy, and the ordnance, but the
rest must be left to the House of Commons, which would
not be the Constitution as it now existed. He was sorry
that on this question he had to differ from some of his
friends ; but feeling no other desire than that his services
might be of use to the country, he considered that there
was no necessity for him to conceal his opinion; and he
wished to God that he could convince the Noble Earl and
his colleagues of the error into which they had fallen. He,
however, had the most entire conviction, from all the exa-
mination and experience that he had been able to bring to
the subject, that the country would be placed in the
greatest peril if the Bill wee passed in its present shape.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that it would be
easy to believe him when he stated that he had nothing to
do with Prince Polignac or Charles the Tenth; nor with
their adversaries had he anything to do further than ten-
dering. his humble opinion, in conjunction with the liberal
party in this country, expressing a hope that they would
lean to the side of mercy.
Earl GREY said that if he had consulted his own ease,
he should not have addressed theie Lordships; but there
Were some points in the speech of the Noble Duke, which
he thought required observation. He would begin by ex-
pressing the same wish which the Noble Duke had ex-
pressed towards him. He wished to God that he could
convince the Noble Duke of the error into which he bad
fallen. The Noble Duke thought that they were in error ;
he certainly thought the contrary ; but which was right
titne alone could show. There was, however, this pre-
sumption on his (Lord Grey's) side, that there was hardly
a man in that House, or the country, that did not allow
that some change was required. The point, however, to
Which the Noble Duke remained pledged was, that the
thing was perfect as it stood—that with all its abuses it was
counterbalanced_ in a great degree by the benefits it had con-
ferred on the ceuntry; that those abuses were an essential
part of it, and that if they were to be corrected or re-
tracted, it would put an end to the glory of the country.
In this opinion, however, few men would be found to con-
cur, and the Noble Duke himself had confessed that he
lx 'as obliged to lament that he could not concur with many
of
those with whom he had been in the habit of acting;
indeed he (Lord Grey) did not know that the Noble
Duke had stated that there was one with which he could
concur. Ile (Lord Grey) had not heard from any one,
and certainly not from his Noble Friend (Lord Wharn-
(lifre), that it would be possible to reform with safety',
without making some attempt to restore satisfaction and
confidence to the people, by giving them a share in the
representation of the country, from which they thought
that they were unjustly deprived. The Noble Duke bad
Stated that the consequence of the division against the

late Government on the Civil List had arisen from a onto-
bination of the parties. He took it as indicating such a
want of confidence on the part of the House of Commons,
that he thought it necessary to resign—not because tin
Committee was carried, but because he felt it to be his
duty, as a good and loyal subject, to save his Sovereign
the difficult, and, perhaps, dangerous situation in which
he might be placed if the question of Parliamentary Re-
form was introduced. If this, then, was the case, it was
on account of the subject of Reform that the Noble Duke
had resigned.—(The Duke of Wellington signified his dis•
sent.) He had been stating the Noble Duke's own words.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had deter-
mined to reign, because he l.ad not the confidence of the
House of Commons. He might have remained longer in
office if the question of Reform bad not been to come on
on the Tuesday ; but deeming that lie was bound to re-
sign, he determined to do so on the Tuesday, and he cer-
tainly chose the Tuesday on account of the motion for
Reform.
Earl GREY had already stated the observations of the
Noble Duke as they struck him, and the only difference
appeared to be, that, having determined to resign, he
hastened it to avoid the time when the question of Parlia-
mentary Reform might have been carried.—(dear, bear.)
There could be no doubt that there did exist a strong feel-
ing in favour of Parliamentary Reform (from whatever
f.
source it might have been derived) among the people of
England, and the Noble Duke hail stated, that if he re-
mained in office, he had lesson to apprehend that it might
be decided in a way adverse to his wishes. The opinion
of the necessity that there was for Reform, had not pressed
itself upon his mind then for the first time ; for
on the first night of the Session be had had a
strong feeling on the subject, and the Noble Duke could
not forget it, for it had produced from him that declaration
which had so astounded the country. He could not have
forgotten that he (Lord Grey) on the first night of the
Session stated, that one of the best securities and defences
to which the Parliament could resort, would be to take
measures for such a Reform of the House of Commons as
would restore that confidence on the part of the people on
which alone the security of the Government could rest.
Anti he would ask if it was possible fur him (if he meant
to maintain any character for aristocracy) to take office on
any condition but that of being allowed to state to the Par-
liament, and propose to the country that which had been
before stated to he:necessary for the security of the country?
But the Noble Duke had alluded to some declaration which
he (Lord Grey) had made in 1817—he did not know on
what occasion. The Noble Duke seemed to think that
the declaration which he then made proved that his opi-
nion then was nit the same as it was now. He (Lord
Grey) would not undertake to recollect every thing
that he had said during the period of forty-five years
that he had occupied a seat in Parliament. But he
was so confident in the principle that had regulated
his opinion—he was so confident of the consistency of
the views he had entertained, and that he had never
swerved from urging the necessity of Parliamentary Re-
form—that he would maint Lin, without fear of contradic-
tion, that he had never said anything that was contrary to
that opinion, or adverse to the question of Reform. If he
had rightly understood the Noble Duke, his (Lord Grey's)
declaration related to the benefit arising from the present
House of Commons ; but be had no objection to say now,
that with all its faults (which so far from helping it to
work well, impeded its motions), it was still, taking it
altogether, the best legislative assembly in the world. But
it was because he thought that the effect for which it had
been formed would be produced in a still greater degree,
that he proposed the present measure ; for however good it
might be, he could not shut his eyes to the great and noto-
rious defects which had been proved to exist—especiallywhen
those defects were more and more felt by the people, and
were producingweakness and insecurity where there ought
to be strength and security. The Noble Duke had said
that he felt no difference between them as to peace ; if the
Noble Duke meant (and he did not mean to insinuate that
he did not mean it) that his desire was the preservation of
peace, there certainly was no difference between them. But
the Noble Duke had taken credit for not having asked any
questions calculated to embarrass the Government. He was
sure that the Noble Duke too well understood his duty to
put questions in the very delicate and difficult situation in
which he must have known that the Government was placed
—and even if they had been put, he (Lord Grey), at least,
too well knew his duty to have answered them. lie claimed
credit for having endeavoured to preserve peace, but at the
same time he begged to assure their Lordships that be
never would sacrifice anything that he believed to be es-
sential to the honour and welfare of England. With
respect to retrenchment, he certainly had not been able
to do all that, under the circumstances of the country, it
was his most anxious wish to do. He begged their Lord-
ships to recall the situation in which the present Govern-
ment had found the country. There was every reason to
apprehend that the peace of Europe would be disturbed :
at home the greatest distress prevailed in the manufac-
turing districts; and in the counties round London the
districts were in a state of open insurrection. What the
measures of Government lead been the country had seen,
and he trusted that they had not been found deficient in
the performance of their duty. This situation made it
impossible for them to adopt any great system of retrench-
ment. In the state of Europe they could not diminish
their army or navy. In the state of domestic affairs, and
considering how the military force was divided, it had
been absolutely necessary to make an addition to it ; and
the Special Commissions that had been issued had of
course been a source of expense to the country. Never-
theless, he thought they had a right to take credit for
having done a great deal under the circumstances. The
Pension List had been reduced frnm 159,600/. to 75,000/.
though it haul been thought not right to deprive those
that actually possessed this charitable allowance, which, in
most instances, was worthily bestowed. In ti•at Pension
List, however, he had no share whatever, or at least the
only one that he had recommended was one that was
granted in 1806 to the widow of Mr. Fix. In the
Post-office, which was under the management of
his Noble Friend, who, he must say, was one
of the most efficient public officers the country haul
ever had, there was to be considerable reduction ; no less
than from •10 to 50 principal officers, and from 50 to 60
inferior ones being cut off, by svhich there would be a
saving to the country of 20,000/. In addition to this,
many other savings had been effected in other departments;
and he thought that be might appeal to the country, whe-
ther he had not done all in the way of retrenchment that
was within his power. The last remaining point, was
that of Parliamentary Reform. 'Die Noble Duke in
speaking on this, had complained that the name of his
Majesty had been unduly used ; he had, however, admitted
that the Government had not used it beyond signifying
that the King's consent bad been given to the measure,
and that it was quite impossible to suppose that the intro-
duction cf it had influenced any of the votes in the other
House of Parliament. In this he thought that the Noble
Duke was quite correct ; and all that could he assumed
was, that the measure had been submitted to the King,
and that his consent had been given. But was this un-
constitutional? Were not measures often introduced by
message or by speech, even before they were introduced to
Parli iment ? He thought, therefore, that the Govern-
ment stood clear from any improper use of the King's
name on this subject. But he could not forget how the
Noble Duke, on a former occasion, had turned round to an
Illustrious Duke, and said that he could confidently assert
that the measure he was then proposing had the consent
of the late Sovereign. He did not, however, wish to build
any vindication on what had been an improper precedent :
but at least the Noble Duke would remember this in mi-
tigation of what he had charged against them.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had passed
no censure.
Eerl GREY had understood the Nob'c Duke to say,
that the King's name had been used, and certainly he had
understood that as a censure. But much stress had also
been laid upon the Government having threatened the
Parliament. They bad held out rte threat—they had in-
tended to hold out no threat—they were not authorised in
holding out any threat. All that he would say was, that
he thought this measure, such as it was, recommended by
the Ministry, would be of the greatest importance to the
country ; to that measure he was connected heart and
soul, and he would not shrink from any advice which he
thought was necessary for its support.—(Hear, hear.)—
The Noble Duke had told them that they ought to look
to the composition of a Legislative Assembly, and not to
the qualification of the voters. But what they did was to
look to that composition so as to make it the real repre-
sentation of the people in Parliament; and how were they
to do that, kit by taking care that the electors should
be such voters as would insure a real representation ?
The Noble Duke had also complained that the elec-
tive franchise was to be extended to the copyholders
and leaseholders in counties ; and he had stated that
this would increase the number of voters by 5,000
in Hampshire alone. How this could be he (Lord
Grey) did not very well know, for at present, including
the forty-shilling freeholders, the numbers were not above
eight or 9,000, and he, therefore,did think that
beisheow would
beto, the changei proposedch
the
Nobleco d makepuke anyad thingspok
el e theNvi addi-
tion
rdet
spe cnt:,
,iechowever,tion tot
such insertions
if ort tet)m, s
cs ioounliss tler
be necessary. The Noble Duke had a so complained
that, under the new system, Government would be
without its due influence. Now be (Lord Grey) thought

that it would still have all the influence that it ought
t) possess. It would stand on the affections of the
people. He had no fear but it would be able to
carry all good measeres into effect. With respect to
the Church of England and tithes, his answer was this—
that he believed the people of England were attached,
and justly attached, to the support of the National Church
Establishment ; and with a real House of Commons he
thought that there was no fear (whatever attempts might
be made to correct the abuses of that Church) that there
would be any desire to invade any of their just rights.
His Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) had said that this
was Writ a resting-place, but that it would lead to ulterior
consequences, and in the end would prove fatal to the em-
pire. He (Lord Grey) believed that the very reverse of
this would be the case, for be believed that it -would be ac-
cepted as a very satisfactory measure. But supposing that
it should produce these consequences, how would they be
amended by the proposal of his Noble Friend ? He hal
already stated that Reform was irresistible, and that no
Government could exist without doing something to sa-
tisfy the people ; if then he would do less than this mea-
sure, was it net evident that the people, who were to be
dissatisfied with the present, would be still more dissatisfied
with his Noble Friend's plan. Ile wished that his Noble
Friend had stated what his plan was ; but, at all events,
it would serve equally to eive a fulcrum to that lever by
which, according to his N,ble Friend, all the institutions
of the country were to he be overturned. When lie (Lord
Grew) had been called on, by his public duty, to look at
this measure, the question was, in what way it should be
handled. Should it be a short measure, by which they would
" Keep the word of promise to the ear,
But break it to the hope ;"
or should it be a measure such as would satisfy the country
for a considerable period? lie had been reproached with
having gone far beyond his original intentione. Now he
had no hesitation in saying, that the first disposition of
his mind had been to have limited the measure in a much
narrower compass ; but when he came to look at it closer,
and to discuss it with his colleagues, he had come to the
opinion that nothing short of what he had proposed would
satisfy the country, and give tranquillity to the Government.
On this principle it was conferred—on this principle it had
been supported, and he was happy to say that it had been
received with general satisfaction throughout the country.
It would not now do to say that the meetings that had
taken place had all been composed of one class of indivi-
duals, for if the principal c unty meetings were looked at,
it would be found that persons of the highest respecta-
bility had attended, and expressed their concurrence.—
At the time of the Catholic question, an Honourable
Gentleman had made an analysis of the expressed sense of
the largest counties and towns in the kingdom, from which
it appeared that of the counties there were 19 for the
Catholic claims, and 17 against them; and of the towns,
there were 26 for, and 19 against them ; from which that
Hon. Gentleman had deduced that the expressed opinion
of the country was in favour of the measure. But if that
was correct in that instance, how much more so was it in
the present, when, taking the same counties and the same
towns, the result was that there were for the measure °7
counties, and only nine against it—with 37 towns for it,
and only eight against it. In fact, he believed that he
might venture to say that a more general, a more strong,
and a more unequivocal expression of popular feeling had
taken place on this subject than on any other that
was on record. What had been the history of Catholic
Emancipation? Had it not been retarded until the benefits
which would otherwise have flowed from it had been con-
siderably diminished? If Catholic Emancipation had been
granted in 1806, or even at a much later period, it would
have been received as a boon, and the most advantageous
effects would have been the result. But it had luen de-
layed until Ireland became convulsed, and until the feeling
of irritation in that county arose to such a height that
even the most violent opposers of emancipation felt it to
be their duty to propose and to support it. The same
would be the case in the event of the rejection of the pro-
position for Reform. Granted at the present moment the
people would consider it an act of grace ; refused, and who
could predict the consequences of the rejection ? It was
a rejection which might destroy the present Administration;
but how would it operate on their successors ? The people,
disappointed of their just expectations, would be inflamed
with resentment; and would eventually demand, with a
voice of thunder, that which it would be found impossible
longer to deny; but the granting of vehich would not only
be unattended with the advantages that would now accom-
pany its concession, but in the strong excitement that
would then exist might be productive of evils which no
man could foresee—evils that might throw the whole
country into irremediable disorder.—(Hear, hear.)
The Doke of WELLINGTON explained.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE made a short reply, in which
he avowed that the motion which he had made proceeded
from himself alone ; and contended that although Reform,
and a considerable degree of Reform, was necessary, his
Majesty's Government might, if they had thought proper,
have brought forward a plan which would have been suf-
ficiently satisfactory to the whole country, instead of ori-
ginating the rash and dangerous measure which they now
advocated, and from the perilous consequences of which,
should it he adopted, they would find it difficult to disco-
ver the means of extrication.
The Address was then agreed to, and at Half-past Two
o'clock this morning their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,lincir 28.

The SPEAKER, took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock.

FORFAR ELECTION.

Mr. GOULBURN brought up the report of the Com-
mittee on this election, which decided that the Lord Ad-
vocate of Scotland had not been duly elected, but that the
Hon. Mr. Ogilvie was duly elected, and that the petition
or the opposition to it was neither frivolous nor vexatious.
The Hon. Mr. OGILVIE was then introduced, and took
the oaths and his seat.