The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-17 00:00:00

and the holders of family settlements ought to be made to con-
tribute their due shares. He had no doubt that his Majesty's
Ministers would take the subject into consideration, and, he
hoped, that they would be able to pass a Bill for the introduc-
tion of Poor Laws into Ireland, so as to give protection to that
unhappy people, and to give satisfaction to the people of the
United Kingdom.
Mr. SC HOLE FIELD could bear testimony to the state-
ments made by his Hon. Colleague. Never were good order
and unanimity more observeable than upon the occasion
when this petition was agreed to. There were three points
which the petition embraced, but he would only call attention
to one of them. There was only one opinion as to the neces-
sity of Irish Corporate Reform, reform of the Irish Church,
and as to the necessity of poor laws for Ireland ; but there
was a difference of opinion with regard to a reform of the
House of Lords. It was the desire of many of the people of
Birmingham not to interfere with the privileges of the House
of Lords, so long as they did not obstruct the progress of
improvement.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. DUGD ALE—The Hon. Member for Birmingham had
asked permission to present a petition of very considerable
bulk, and, as appeared from his speech, of very considerable
importance. But he (Mr. D.) had every reason to believe
that when the merits of that petition were duly explained, it
would notbe considered of so much importance and considera-
tion. The principal prayer of the petition embodied an organic
change in the Lords, by which was meant nothing more nor
less than the utter destruction and annihilation of the rights, but
the independence of that House.—(Loud cheers from the op-
position.) That object may be desirable in the eyes of
the Honourable Member for Birmingham—( Hear, hear)—
and in the eyes of a few persons in Birmingham ; but
he had no hesitation in saying that the great majority of the
people of Birmingham repudiated the sentiments contained in
the petition. At the time of the meeting for considering the
subject of the petition, a number of gentlemen entered into a
protest against
_ the prayer of it, and declared the persons who
got it up had no right to represent themselves as speaking the opi
nions of the inhabitants of that city. He should read to the
House the protest then agreed upon, and which he then held
in his hand. The Hon. Gentlemen here read the document
of which he spoke. lie should remark that it was signed by
2,000 persons, all householders of Birmingham, of full age,
and of the greatest respectability, and of men entertaining dif-
ferent political opinions. Ile believed the Member for Bir-
mingham would find among them many of his own supporters.
And there were only a few names on the list which had been
placed on it by mistake, and which he had therefore corrected.
It was signed by all the borough officers except one; the Low
Bailiff; by all the Magistrates of Warwick acting for and resid-
ing in the borough, with one exception, and he disapproved of the
object of the meeting ; also by twenty-two clergymen—( Loud
laughter)—by sixty attorneys —( Continued laughter)—by
forty physicians—( Increased laughter)—by two bankers, and
forty merchants. He defied the Member for Birmingham
to say that it was signed by an individual who was not of full
age, and of the greatest respectability. With regard to the
petition, which was said to conic from a body calling
itself the Birmingham Political Union—( Hear)—it was
well known to every Member of that House that it had bled to
death a long time ago—( Laughter)—and it would be out of
the power of the Member for Birmingham, with all his elo-
quence, ingenuity, and ability to bring it back to existence. In
the first place it was, therefore, the petition of a dead body.—
( Laughter.)—lt was said to be signed by 2,000 individuals
who would, if they were bona fide and living persons, and of
sound mind—( Great laughter)—he entitled to the considera-
tion of that House. He 01r. Dugdale) believed that they
were a part of that mighty host, consisting of 20,000 brave and
upright men, who, the Member for Birmingham not long ago
informed the House, were ready to march under his banners,
and against whom the few pitiful Tories that might be
found in the country could do nothing.--( Hear, hear.)
He had received information from a friend at Birmingham as
to the maiiirer in which the signatures were obtained, who
was ready, if the House wished it, to prove at the Bar what
he had stated to be the truth. He had been informed this pe-
tition was sent to a vast number of pot-houses of the lowest
description in Birmingham, and persons were sent also to
guard it of the lowest character. People had been sur-
tioncd v;ith it for a fortnight, in all the publiz•
streets and thoroughfares in the town. Those persons were
seen in the open street to sign name after name to the peti-
tion, without the authority or presence of any one.--( Lii-
mense laughter.) It was also signed by children of the
vounge,t age.—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches. )
His informant had stated that he saw tables stationed in Ca-
streets, surrounded by children of eight, ten, and twelve years
of age, and one of them who could write was writ; ,1:2
the names of the rest. Many of them were ill spelt.—( H )
Many sheets were covered with marks, purporting to be the
marks of :,cveral persons. He would not trouble the House
any mare—( Hear, hear)--for lie was aware that something of
li
great consequence was coaling forward, and he would leave it
to the House to say which they considered of most consequence,
the protest he held in his hand, or the bulky petition that had
been laid upon the table.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said that was just the question.
There were two thousand signatures on the one hand—the
rabble, if the Hon. Member pleawd—a familiar name for Eng-
lishmen at present—( Groans from the Conservatives, and cheers
from the Ministerial Benches.) On the other hand, there was
the protest of the lion. Member, amongst which he had the
candour to admit there were some mistakes, which the [lon.
Member scratched out.—( Hear, hear.) This petition was
signed by 2,000 persons, according to the Hon. Member,
and nobody being present—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—that
mistake came not from potato. shire.—( Continued laughter.)
The people ought not to be treated by anybody with ri-
dicule, such as the Hon. Member had employed.—( Hear,
hear.) Perhaps they asked for what was unreasonable—
a change in the House of Lords. But Englishmen had a
right to ask for any organic change which they thought neces-
sary for their liberty. They had a right to send any petition
to the House, provided they spoke in respectful language.—
( Hear.) The Hon. Member opposite was entitled to re-
tain his opinion, and the men of Birmingham were entitled
to retain their opinion, but he felt himself bound to say,
having received the high honour—( Laughter from the Tories,
followed by loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—he
would be sorry to shrink from saying that he saw
among them many thousand persons at that meeting—in-
dividuals who certainly appeared to him—he meant no
disparagement to the Hon. Member opposite—quite as re •
spectable as the lion. Member. They appeared to him to be
intelligent, and he was certain they were discriminating.—
(Cheers and laughter.) They could have had no other reason
for joining in sentiment with him than that of believing
that they had a community of feeling with respect to the
necessity of increasing the guarantees of British liberty.
There was a voice then amongst them which represented that
feeling, and he did not know that his Hon. Friend the Member
for Birmingham was inferior to the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
either in talent, eloquence, or devotion to the liberties of
his country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had
greatly contributed to carry the great measure of Reform,
but the people of Birmingham had done more. He firmly
believed, but for the manly, firm, but peaceable demonstra-
tion made by the Birmingham Union, they would now be sit-
ting in a rotten-borough Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Ought
not this petition, therefore, to be treated with respect ? Would
any Tory clique presume to treat it with disrespect ?—( Hear.)
Mr. SCARLETT said it had been the habit of certain
persons who had no other employment, to endeavour upon
all occasions to persuade the people that organic changes
were necessary. He trusted that the petitions of the people
would ever be treated with respect by that House.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) But he put it to the House whether a pe
tition of the nature which they had heard, ought not
to be discouraged—( No, no.) When the Reform question
was under discussion the people were told that the measure
could only be obtained by process of law. But in the present
instance it must be apparent that the object was to ob-
tain it by violence—( Oh ! oh ! from the Ministerial benches.)
Was it, he asked, to be expected that the House of Lords
would ever sanction any measure which would annihilate
their own authority ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) No reasonable
man could expect it. He was therefore at a loss to know how
this organic change was to be effected except by violence.—
(Oh, oh.) In his opinion the petition was treasonable.—
(Repeated cries of " Oh, oh.") He would be glad to know
how Hon. Members could distinguish between the crime of
seeking a change in the Monarchy and in the House of Lords.
—(Laughter.) For his part he could not understand the
distinction, and he thought it was the bounden duty of the
House to discourage such petition.
REGIUM DONUM.
An Hon. MEMBER begged to ask whether it was the in-
tention of Government to increase the Regium Donum in
Ireland ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un-
derstood to reply to the Hon. Member's question in the
negative.

CARLOW ELECTION.

At half-past five the SPEAKER called upon
Mr. HARDY, who begged to move that the Clerk would
read that part of the Standing Orders of the House relative to
the election of Members to serve in Parliament.
The reading- of the Order occasioned some laughter on the
Ministerial side of the House.
Mr. HARDY then rose—Whether the risibility of Hon.
Members has been excited by the reading of this Order I care
not ; but this I am convinced of, that the case which I have to
lay before this House for its consideration comes within, if not
the words, the very principle of that Order. And, Sir,
it is a great relief to my mind that this matter comes before
the House at a time, and under circumstances fixed upon by
the Hon. and Learned Member himself, who is most interested
in the result. Sir, lam rejoiced at that, because I did fear
that the Hon. and Learned Member might have sustained some
inconvenience, in consequence of an omission on my part
not communicating to him the petition which I bad
to present, but which I have since learned was in his hand:,
or at least a copy of it, before it was in mine—( Tremendous
cheering from the Tory benches.) Sir, there was one cir-
cumstance which I thought might have created some inconve-
nience to the Hon. and Learned Member, and that was the
hour at which the discussion in this case might be likely to
come on, in consequence of my notice standing 9th on the
paper for this evening. Accordingly, as soon as I had satisfied
myself, which was not till late on Wednesday night, that I
had a perfect right to bring it forward in precedence as a
breach of privilege, I wrote early on the following morning
to the Hon. and Learned Member to acquaint him I did mean
to claim that precedence, and I shall read that note to the
House.—( Hear, and much laughter.) ‘. Mr. Hardy presents
his compliments to Mr. O'Connell, and begs leave to
inform him that it is his intention to claim precedence for
his motion of this evening, respecting the Carlow Election, as
involving a breach of privilege.-7, Portland-place, Feb. 11.
—( Roars of laughter.) The answer to that was, that the Hon.
and Learned Member was not up—( Renewed laughter)—and
would not be for an hour ; but in the course of the morning
1 received the following answer :—" If any act of Mr. Hardy