The Sun.
London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

CO.4MITTEE OF SUPPLY.

On the Motion of Mr. T. GRENVILLE, the:House'
I.soilved itself into a. Committee of.Supply,.to which
the Accounts of the Ordinaries of the Navy, and
other Estimates -respealbg that service, were re-
leired ;: Me.:Ebibifou.s6.in. the Chair,'
_ . _

Said, that it was then his
duty ty propo9le Committee, pursuant to his
Itotice on alb-rni-g ay, the tin-ther Naval Supplies
Which remained to be considered. Gentlemen would,
*eeolleta tilat.he bad given notice-of his intention' on
tb\', day to move a vote'oflo,ooo seamen :in addition
t 0 the ,420,000 already voted. The, natural course
is
Or to pursue on this occasion, would be, to sub-
-1/lit the Resolution immediately to' the Conitnittee.
3311t.acitAWaiimpossible not to recoiled_ the refer-
,tkhat,,had been made to this elsubjel in a
ortner aenate, charg4l*2; inattntion upon is Ma-
Jesty's.MittiSterslor having this second vote .to bring
fOrivard;- as, it •wduld' be rerne.mbered, that a -re-
tleftion, wasAt the same timercast on the ptecipita7
1)011 of his Majesty's Government, in having brought
forward One. vote. separatly; when 'they ought to.
have brought both forward "together; he felt hint,
;elf called upon. to , say a fqw words in his .own,
justification, to shew that the charge
,W precipitar
tiOn was unfound: A. When the former vote hat
been submitted to the House, it was founded upetit
the usLiaYand ordinary grounds„upcut ;which such
Votes were invariably brought forward. The House
liras acquainted with the c=ourse arid .cetiduci of naval
affairs in- time of-war, tha=tilo' cheek was ever pat to
the recruiting for the-navy,. whatever might be the
number of men voted._ The-vote in time of war.
Iv as usually founded upon the reports of the recruit-
lbg for the navy in the preceding year, and whenever
the vote was brought,tOrward beforelhe3Oth of De-
vflolber, was ,funncted upOn..an average up to the
40th of September, but when brought for Ward sub-
Sequent to the 30th of December, it was taken on
the returns of the whole year, and not on the average.
Of the three first quarters.. The returns were. made
only every quarter. When. 7 he.. had, brought for,
ward the former vote, he had only the average of
the
three first quarters,- up to the 30th of Septem-
r, r, to guide him, and did not give much more that;
1:20,000 men, which he then proposed to vote.'
When-the accounts for the year, however,-had been
Illade, up, it appeared that the number of men
ItnOunted to 126,000 and upwards. Having great
reason to think, that, when so _many had -been oh-
tainecl, the number could be carried to 130,000,
!specially when he had the satisfaelion .to- State; that
the increase in the last three months afforded a. pro-
-112e6t. of a much greater 'number, he 'trusted the
Iliause would agree with him, that, in the present
circumstances, the vote should be extended to
130,000 men. Having statedihus much to SheW that
the charge of precipitation was unfounded, and having
iven that explanation of the proposed additional vote,
lt would likewise be conformable to the usual and
sa rdinarycontse to submit the vote to the Committee,
kith
an intimation of readiness to give any inlet;
l_s_avtiOn that may be desired by any persons who might ,
have curiosity to look into the Estimates, if they
be 1 state the objeas of their inquiry. He should.
0 ready in such a case, as was his duty, to give the .
, be satisfaaery answer to any cineition that might
c put to him. But he was.desirous to sava few,words
hnthe general course of the subject. I t appeared to
hcilelsatiahat, according to the manner in which the Naval
nts were. akpresent submitted. to Parliament,
eie., as
Z:tienot a minute detailed information given
ct
large' and important a stibjea- imperiously de.-
.1 In saying this, he did not presume
.to cast
)
o.'_. ~.
censure on the proceedings of former Administrn-
ieLks far from that being,the case, that, on the lit-
4Pqn.en.c9 he had in the 'business of his .depart-

ment, he would not venture to propose hastily any
}flan to change'the course tbat had been for many years
adopted. At the same time, it was impossible, from
the manner in which the Naval Estimates were present-
ed to the House, that a sufficient degree of information
cotild•be derived from them. In framing them a cer-
tain scale of arithmetical calculations was'adopted,
which did not always give the result expe.-led. - A
notion .had been established, that, when 120,400
seamen were voted, if 71: per man were -allowed,
.such allowance, with the Ordinaries, the Extraordi-
retries, and the Transport Charge, would answer the
geperal, service.: He was not disposed to criticise
this allowance of seven pounds per man. The al-
lowance had-been changed, in t 797, from four to se-
ven pounds, because, whilst the allowance was four
pounds, there was_every year an extreme addition to
the Navy Debt. Another point was, that the dis-
tribtition of this 71. per man professed to do what
it-did not do-. It was-divided into four branches, but
not adequate-to them all. The allowanees for wages
and victuals might be sufficient; but the third branch,
'the wear and tear of ships, was so very general, that
this specific allowance was far frbrh 'covering it; and,
if •a: true and corre& statement of the real expence
were laid before the House, would appear to be great-
ly insufficient. He had no wish to, trespass on the
Committee, but though he did not mean at present to
propose any change, he had thought it right to trouble
the Committee with a few words, to assure the House
that his Majesty's Alinisters had paid an early attention
subje&. Econotny Was strength and defence,
and, a course of econorny Could not be persned with-
outparsuing the details of large and - complicated ac-
counts. It was the duty of the House to attend to
these details, and in the discharge of that duty, theY
would create strength, by proving to the people, that
thesums-which thepiOntribute freely are carefully ap-
ThiS was the reason; that in the other branches
ut the Government the details wereesubmitted to the
HOUse. fie 'was desirous of following 'the ex'aniple;
and therefore he would not ventureupOn' his own
opinion, to makeany change in the Mode of submit-
ting these accounts to the House; but he was anxi-
ous to state to the House, that in the following year
It' Would hot bedifficult to pursue the details of the
'naval ex pewees,- soas to make them clear and, intelli-
gible. There were several branches however of
Which it would be impossible to make any eerre&
or aectirate statement' it was itnpOssible to calculate
the etreas of tempests, the casualties of engagements,
or:the expences arisingfrom the alteration of he des-
. tination of-Expeditions.` But'every thing would and
ought' to be done to remove every obscerity '!itra
that: could be done: .It was to,this part, he
himself, and' with success, but the merit was
.not. his. He was indebted to the assistance and la-
bours'-of others: On tills ground it-was, that if it
should be his duty to bring forward the Naval Esti-
mates next year, he should lay them before the,House
under, detail, under distinet and separate heads. If
*the Honse would indulge him for a short tithe, he
would read them -without dwelling upon them; they
being three or four and twenty in number.. He pro-
posed to distribthe tthe Naval Estimates under these
seVeral heads, wages of officers and men at sea and in
port, half-pay of the Navy, marines, raising men and
-volunteers, telegraphs, pileting, pensions to widows,
and commissions to warrant officers, wages of officers
and labOUrefs in deck-yards, building ships, in mer-
chants' yards, hire of armed vessels, the purchase of
stores, the most importapt article,divided into various
branches, which in the present year amounted to
n.,660;0001. bills of exchange, and' incidental
vices. The next heads he had tb' mention Were,
the Vianalling and. Transport BTrds, the ex;
pences. Of Which should be submitted more in
detail to the -House.'it the Public Offices were to
berapprised of hisintentione they would be prepared
to supply the accounts in the form required, and
every.clerk. by referring to an index, would be able
to state ,Cx.a&ly the precise state of his account.—
Flaving said this of the plan he, had in contemplation,
he thought it necessary to advert to one or two rir-
tk,es of expence in the present Estimates. The first
was an article of expence which, in its present shape,
'ought not to be introduced in the
,Navy
.Estimates.
This was a charge of 600,0001. for victualling garri-:
sons abroad, which did not properly belong to the
Navy Estimates. The only- other article that re-
mained, for bhp to touch upon was one which had
been the subjea of discussion last Session, thoheh he
had not been present at the discussion. It would be
recolleded that a Commission of Natal Review had
been instituted, fbr the _purpose of receiving the
Suggestions of the Cothrnissioners of the Naval In-
. quiry. This_Commission was composed of persons
.. of whOM he could not but. speak with reSped, as
men from whOm much useful information could be
bad. At the same time he Was ready fairly to
state that much inconvenience had arisen from the
existence ,of that Commission. Whilst the Noble
.Person who had been- at first at the head of that
ComMiSsion was also at the head of the Admiralty,
this inconvenience had not been felt because the sug-
gestions of the Commissioners would immediately be
aeted upon. But at present the notoriety and publi-
city of their Reports caused "considerable inconve-
nience, by making them the subject of disCus-
sions in the different departments of the Naval ser-
- vice. He concluded.with moving, that 10,000 ad-
ditional Seamen, including 2400 Royal Marines, be
employed in the Navy for the service of the year
1807:

•

Mr. OEOgGE JOHNSTONE thought that the
Right Hon.,Gentleman had no reason to apololz;se to
the House for having explained himself in detail.---
j His speech had been very satisfactory to him; and he
1 was,sure it would be satisfatlory,to the House, that
he should at all times gratify them in that way. He
did not think, howeVer, that the reason assigned by
the Right Hon. Gentleman -for the • rote of the
additional number of , seamen was satisfaaory.-
1 If the returns, were made only quarterly they ought
to be made more frequently. Something must be
wrong and ought to be set right, when the First
I Lord .of therAdmiraity was ignorant of the a- anal
number of men employed. As to the submitting
! the accounts in detail, that the House would agree
a Hd thought that several of the Accounts might,
in tkt present instance, be furnished in detail to the
House, such as those of the Transport and Viaual-
[ ling Bords.
I Mr. POSE obserVed, that the Right Hononra-
: ble .Gent leman Would hate no difficulty in, proem.;
ing a, detailed_ statement of the Accounts, because
they had been :annually: prepared in the different
► Office; for the last s.veu or 'eight'yearS. The al-

lo wance of 71. per man had been found sufficient
since -the beginning. of" the War. The Estimates
might still be voted under 'the principal . heads,
though the detailed information might, be sup-
-1 plied to Parliament. As to the supply of the garri-
sons abroad, that regulation had been adopted with a
.view to economy. The stores for that purpose. had
formerly been supplied on contraa-by Members of
that House ; but as that produced an inconvenience,
by multiplying the purchasers in the market, his late
Right Hon. Friend had transferred the whole to the
Navy Board.. The Noble Lord to whom the Right
Hpu. Gentleman had alluded had not been at the
head of the Admiralty when the Commission of Na-
val Review was first instituted.

Mr. PERCIVAL did not -objed to this vote of
-I 0,000 additional Seamen, because he did' not think
the Navy could be carried to too great an extent,
but thought it extraordinary that it had not been at
first proposed. The Naval-Commission of Review
bad been instituted for the purpose of carrying into
effe6t some suggestions of the CogimissiOnets of
Naval Inquiry. But the inconvenience the Right
Honourable Gentleman complained of must take
place in cases where the ,Report of the Commis-
sioners did not fall in with
.the opinion of the
persons who were to a6l upon it. It did not fol-
low, however, that the suggestions of the Cornmis-
sioners may not be as wise as the opinion of his
Majesty's Ministers, though the Right Honourable
Gentleman had said that, much inconvenience had
arisen from the Reports,of the Commission. .If the
continuance of the Commission were productive of
inconvenience it ought to be discontinued ; and if,
ou the contrary, it was produdive of benefit; its dura -
lion ought not to be litnitedto any time, till its la-
bours should be completed. , .
Lord-ITI. PETTY wished ,merely to set the Hon;
Gentleman
.Tight with resped to the faal of the ap-
pointment. a the Commission of Review. It had
not been :appointed at the-suggestion of the. Com,
ruissioners o(_ Naval Inquiry. As to the condu6t of
his Right Hon..P,riend, there was a difference be-
tween• a ;Commission to.,be appointed, whatever•his
opinion might be upon the sUbje6t, and the putting a
sudden and abrupt termination to one. before its: la-
bours. should be terminated. ..As to the statement
that it would be easy to produce the accounts in de7.
tail, he should only observe, that they had never yet
been submitted to the House in that form.
1 Admiral MARKHAM gated, that the Account
of the Repairs of Ships; called the Doomsdaybook,
had been kept. till, the period when 'Lord 'Barham
ceased-to be Comptroller Of the Navy. Since that
time, he had repeatedly called for such an Account,
and had beeti-infornied that it was impracticable.
Mr. ROSE said lie spoke not of Doomsday-book,
but he repeated that an account, such as that
,'de-
scribed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, had been re-
gularly made arthe NaVy Office for many years.
Mr. GRENIJILLE asked, why, if the Account
was prepared, it was not presented to Parliament ;
and why those who had been guilty .of this remissL
ness, accused'him of not proceeding upon the neW;
plan in the present instance ?

Mr. J01:-/NSTONP, complained of the employ-
ment of 126,000 seamen, Without a specific mo-
tion for the increase, when only i 20,000 were voted..
A specific cause should have been assigned for the
increase of the number. He wished to know how
far the savings held out by the Naval Inquiry, insti,
tuted uncle.r the..l.`coble Lord (St. Vincent), now one
Of the Commissioners of the Admiralty, by which
a saving of one-third, or one-foUrth of the Naval
Expenditure had been promiSed, had been realized.

Mr. ROSE read an account for the year 1798,
which he had brought from.his house, corresponding
exa&ly with the plan of account 'proposed by Mr.
Grenville. Such an account had been'uniformly pre-
pared in the NaVy Office, during the last 14'years,
by the direction of Mn. Pitt.
Mr. VANSITTARt stated, that these accounts were
not in the Treasury,.

that it was
Sir JOHN NEV'PORT complained,
vely much the pratclice of'men in office to take
away the Official Papers, so as to leave their suc-
cessors without the necessary information.
In answer to some questions from Mr. RLITIIVEN,
Mr. ROSE stated; that the Account he bad pro-
duced was a copy tbr his private use from an official
paper. As to the observation, that these Official
Papers were not now in the Treasury, he had only
to say, he was not the guardian of them.
The Vote of 10,000 additional Seamen was then
agreed to, and the following sums were voted for
their support :

- - ‘240,500
247,°c°
.-
- -
390,000
• 3215°4°

For Wages
Fur Victuals - -
For Wear and Tear of Ships -
:For Ordnance

Votes were also passed
The Ordinary of the Navy - - - • 1035,494
For Bunging , and Repairing Ships - - - . 2,134,903
Vor the Hire of Transport Ships - - - 1,5,0,000
For the. Maintenance of Sick and Wounded Seamen 300,000
For the
.Maintenance of Prisoners of War _ _ • 500,000
On the Motion of Mr. VANSITTART, a list of mis-
cellaneous services was voted, comprising_
For the Siiperintendance of Aliens -
For the Public Office in Bow-street -
For the. naintenanc9 of_Conxids :it Home - -
For the Contingencies of the Offices of the two Secre-

- 6,853
- ,200
1.350

•
raries of State - - - ISioco
For the extra Charge of Messengers to the Continent 12,000
For Swet,Servicc Nloney - - - f7s,oodi
For Law Charge - - - •zo,ooo
For the extiaoroinary Expences of Prosecutions re-
lating to the Colo - - - - - 000
To Sireritn, for Rewards for the COnvidion of Felons 1 ,3,600
For the Relief of the French Emigrants - • r4e,197
For the Deficiency of this Fund in the last Ycar - 1,432
Ter Dissenting Ministers - • 10,336
For the Salaiies of Officers belonging to both Houses -
of Parliameeit - _ • - 5247
For the Exp .of
Parliament, alid the S pe.ker's house , -
To make good Deficiencies in this Eel in
the last year _ _ -
For Military ROads in North Britain -

59,760
4993

The Report to,be received on Monday..
On the Motion of Lord Howick, it was ordered,
that the Cominittee to incl. nire into precedents of
Members expelled, should sit, notwithstanding any
adjoqrnment. . ; ,