The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-22 00:00:00

sure of taxation upon the locality where the paupers ex- I tore dee, vthy that wet so—why it was that the wolitieg
lased. If this propoeiti in of his Noble and Learned ' classes were not only tot advanciag but retregradieg
Friend were to come into operatics, they would have a into misery and destitution. The Hen. Gentleman who
state of things here similar to that which existed in seconded the mottos did so because the poor-rates were
Ireland. so uneven, but as Chairman of a Committee which sat
Mr. BROTHERTON was quite certain that if they in 1830, he was in a potititte to sly that the manage-
paid the poor-rates out of the Consolidated Fund, they merit of the unions, by tile guardians and others, was
would find that there would be an enormous increase in the consequence of alt the evils which then existed.
the rates. At the same time, he was quite ready to ad- Why should a man who drained his estate, and gave
nit that there was great inequality in the rates. In the employment to the people, by which he made his pro-
township in which he resided the rate was 3 shilling in teensy worth 20s. an acre, be placed on the sane level as
the pound, while in an adjoining township it was six to rating, and often rated higher, than the men who did
shillings,—(Hear, hear.) In 1834, when the new law not employ any persons whatever, and whose land was
was brought forward, he stated it as his opinion that only 103.? In his opinion the reason for the increase of
they should have a uniform rate throughout all the the poor-rates arose from a want of eroploe meat.
townships of a union, so that the guardians, instead of Colonel DUNNE felt happy that the present motion
looking to a particular township, would direct their at- was brought on by his Noble Friend, for he was glad to
tention to the entire union. In Salford, out of twelve see the poor law 'debated on English ground. He did
thousand assessments, nine thousand were under ten say that this discussion would reed to English Members
pounds a year, and the consequence was that the rates fell that that which was unjust in England was unjust in
heavily upon the poorer classes. While he was opposed Ireland. With reference to the landing of Irish paupers
to the motion of the Noble Lord, he thought it would be in Liverpool, he might observe, that although they
necessary to deal with the inequality of the rate, and to might have suffered some inconvenience from that, yet
extend the assessment over the whole of the union, in- that the town had gained immensely by the Irish trade,
stead of limiting it, as at present, to a township.—(Hear.) which was more than a compensation for the temporary
Mr. WODEHOUSE agreed in everything that had inconvenience alluded to.—(Hear.)
been said as to the ability which had been displayed by Lord NUGENT said, that alter what had passed ho
the late Commissioner, Mr. Charles Buller, He (Slr. would not endeavour to force the sense of the House, but
Wodehouse) had placed a motion on the books, in being content with the opinions elicited, he would with-
accordance with a recommendation which had been draw his motion.—(Hear, hear.)
iven elsewhere, that the salaries and established The motion was consequently withdrawn.
charges of the poor-law should be paid out of the NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Consolidated Fund. The Honourable Member then Mr. HAMILTON brought forward the motion of
stated that he had been informed by the brother of the which he had given notice, for an address to her Majesty,
'Honourable Member for Cambridgeshire that a house praying that she will be graciously pleased to direct that
near Calais (Messrs. Laroche, Chevery, and Dawson) such a modification of the system of national education
bad made proposals to supply a union in that county, in Ireland may be made as may remove the conscientious
With a variety of necessaries—bread, biscuits, fi inn objections which a large proportion of the clergy and
brandy, beef, mutton, &c., at a cheaper rate than it was laity of the Established Church entertain to that system
possible for any English house to make the supply.. He as at present carried into operation; or otherwise, that
would vote in favour of the Noble Lord's motion, in the means may be taken to enable those of the clergy and
belief that it was absolutely necessary to revise the laity of the Established Church, who entertained such
Public burthens of the country.—(Hear.) conscientious objections, to extend the blessings of scrip
Mr. PETO said he could bear testimony to the neces- tural education in Ireland. He said in bringing forward
Sity of a change taking place in the operation of the the important subject of education in connexion with
Poor-law in the ci yof Norwich. The Hon. Member the Co
take up the timehurch in Ireland, iof the House
would noe
stenosb length. He
for
stated several cases in which the present law operated him t
Infest severely in that city. Still he hoped that the Noble had little more to do than reiterate some of the argu.
Lord would not press his motion to a division, tie he ments he had used last year. He then endeavoured to
doubted if, at the present advanced period of the sea- show that every denomination of Christians in this coun-
Edon, the appointment of a Committee could be attended try were agreed in this, that no sysiem of education
With any benefit, and he thought, besides, that enough should be tolerated which was not based upon religion.
had been done by drawing attention to the subject. Experience had now taught them that they should leave
Mr. ELLIS said he could also bear testimony to the to every denomination the care of the religious instruc-
inequality of the present mode of levying the poor-rate don of the children of its own members, and lto the
in the city with which he was cennected, the city of State to deal with secular education. In Ireland a sys-
Leicester. He was, however, opposed to the levying of tem had obtained repugnant to the principles of the Re-
a national rate, and thought besides that the session was formation, and to the sense of duty entertained by the
too far advanced for the motion to be presied with any clergy. The rule was, that the Bible should be placed
advantage. upon the same footing as other books. Now, could Pro-
Mr. ROBINSON was quite inaudible in the few re- t.,stant laymen or clergymen of the Established Church,
marks he addressed to the House. The Hon. Member or of any Protestant Dissenting congregation,
.consent
Was understood to be in favour of the motion. that the use of the Bible should be dependant upon
Mr. BROWN said he was decidedly opposed to the the caprice or will of the parents or guardians who
opinion which had been expressed. that the introduction happened to attend. Such a principle could no be sane-
of free trade . had been to increase the public distress, dotted by Protestants. And there was high authority
An Hon. Member had . alluded to an instance in which to justify the scruples entertained by the clergy in Ire-
Workers in glass had been thrown out of employment. land upon this subject. The
Bishop of London had
Now he (?sir. Brown) had, on the contrary, been in. lately admitted, that if he were in Ireland he should
formed that the result of the free-trade measure had feel compelled to act as the clergy acted there. There
been to increase the number of nless•cutters from tweive was another objection, namely, that the system tended
hundred to three thousand.—(Hear, hear.) to secularize education. It would end ultimately in the
Mr. POULETT SCROPE, after referring to the pro- inculcation of merely secular knowledge, which was
ceedings of that Committee which had been appointed considered equally objectionable both by Protestants
on the subject before the Hense, said he was glad to and Roman Catholics. The letter acted hi this country
hear in the course of that discussion an admission of the in reference to this
:4111ket as the Protestant clergy did
facts which had been brought be ore that Committee, in Ireland. The 11. n. Nlemler here read some extracts
With regard to the inequality of retitle, throughout the from addresses by ecclesiastical authorities of the Ro-
Country. A very fraudulent attempt had been made by man Catholics in this country, showing the jealou.y
the landlords in some parishes to force the labourers in with which they regarded all attempts to secular za edu-
their employment to reside in other parishes, te the cation. That feeling was el.so stronely entertained by
rates of which the landlords did not contribute.—(lleac, the Established Church in Ireland, who in consequence
hear.) Now, a fraud of that kind, he thought, should of their conscientious scruples on this subject were de-
meet with every possible exposure.—(Hear, hear.) prived of all aid from the national se stem of education.
On general principles, he was of opinion that Was that fair, or just?—(Cheers.) He would forbear
they ought to extend the rate over a union,
and going into details of the management, his of being to
Make it a union rate. The fact of chide having taken place the principle before the House for its judgment.
the management of the poor from the perishes, and Ile hoped Government would take the matter iut their
given it to the guardians, was an additional reason why consideration with a view to its settlement.—(Fleur.)
the rate should be thrown upon the whole union —(Hear, The clergy of the Established Church in Ireland should
hear.) He believed, if they did so. there would be no have the power of forming such rules is their schools as
teed of a law of settlement, or of a law of removal, and would satisfy teeir own scruples, and enable them to
that the unions would be content to manage their own participate in a benefit which was freely enjoyed by
Poor. Ho thought that, year by year, they might gra. other classes. They did not wish to impose their own
dually approximate the rate, and that by so doing they opinions upon others; but that consideration which they
Would satisfy the various parishes of a union. He was extended to them they claimed for themselves. It had
also of opinion that the medical, and some other charges, been stated that the National Society of Ireland was de.
'night fairly be thrown upon the Consolidated Fund. serving of support, because the system was the same in
Mi. CARDWELL thought that it was very likely the principle as in the university of which he was the re-
motion would not be pre-sed to a division, for at that presentative. He denied that there was any analogy
!ate period of the session, when a Committee would find in the two cases. It was manifest that the children of
it impossible to make a report, it was better not to come the poor, if they went to schosl very young, must obtain
to any decision. He was long and well acquainted with their religious education from the teachers in these
41 Hon. Friend now at the head of the Poor-law Corn- schools. But, though Roman Catholics were not com-
Mission, and certainly expected much from him and for Plied to attend chattel in the University, yet the dec.
the country; and he sincerely hoped he would turn his trines of the New Testament formed a large pro-
ortion of the examination of each etudent.—
attention to that important subject, which would be P
much better than to allow it to go to a division. There (leer, hear.) He had presented that day a petition,
Was one thing, however, to which he (Mr. Cardwell) signed by 64,000 of her Majesty's subjects. He bad also
should h..% leave to call the attention of the House. One presented a petitien signed by 1,587 clergymen of the
of the incidents of poor-law charges on various locali- Established Church, setting forth their conscientious
ties was the increase of the poor population from Ire- objections to the system of education in Ireland, and
land, who came over in a most heartrending con- praying for the same liberty as was given to ad other
cajun to this country. He was not now speaking den iminations.—(Hear, hear) He thought it would be
Of those who came over at their own charge to seek strange, indeed, if such petitions from the laity and
employment, but of the absolutely destitute; and if there clergy were disregarded and refused by those who set
ewas one place more than another which suffered, it was themselves up as the great advocates of civil and rcligi-
asiverpool, which he represented. In connexion with ens liberty.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that the Pro-
this subject he moved for papers some time since, which testants in Ireland had a fair claim to ask that the great
Were now laid on the table of the House. By these it principles of the Reformation should be maintained in
appeared, that not less than 296,000 destitute, unhappy, I their case.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded
Miserable emigrants from the sister country had, within by moving the resolution.
the last year, arrived in Liverpool. It was manifestly Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the only objection
no blame to them, nor did he allude to the subject in he should take to the tone of the Hon. Member's speech,
any unkind or ungenerous spirit, but to show how it was his statement that he represented the Protestants
affected particular parties with heavy local taxation, of Ireland. He denied that he represented the ma-
which did not properly belong to them, and hew that jority of Protestants of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) When
created
a feeling of injustice, which was desirable not to he said that, the Hon. Membes forgot that those
ncrease. Out of the 300,000 persons who so arrived, Protestants who took a chfferent view from him
120,000, or 10,000 a month, were totally destitute, the were equally sincere in their views and convic-
consequence of which was, that not only was the poor- tions as the Hon. Member and his friends. The great
rate doubled, but a fearful loss of life ensued. Ten objection he had to the motion was that it would
.tteinan Catholic; clergymen, one Protestant clergyman, abolish the present system of national education in Ire-
Many parochial officers, and medical men had fallen vic- land, and if so they would have to ask for a grant for
tiros. The evils that this produced it is impotsible to educating Roman Catholics specially—(hear, hear)—
, etcribe, It is no blame to them, for they cannot help and for h 6 own part he did not know on what grounds
et, in consequence of the fearful calamity which befell the such a grant could be asked —(Hear, hear.) . Believing
sister cowntry. The consequence however is, that they as he did that the motion of his Hun. Frierd was op-
Must either become one of three things—they must be posed to the best interests of Ireland he hoped the House
either paupers, thieves, or vagrants. They had, how- would not agree to it. The question was one not only
ever, ditcovered that they can be sent beck, and are, of great importance but great difficulty. Witness the
therefore become either vagrants or thieves, Now, he numerous commissions that had been formed to inquire
did not wish to stigmatise) or calumniate the Irish into the subject previous to 1832, when Lord Statile),
eharacter, for it would be manitestly unjust to took the subject up. A . national system of education,
d so; nor did he mean to give any personal offence to to bo national at all, should be es comprehensive as poi-
gentlemen from Ireland. but by the criminal returns it sible—(Hear, hear)—of course taking care to prevent
appeared that wh«.reas, in 1846, 18 000 pi rams were abuses. He believed that the system of education in
committed in Liverpool by the magistrates, it increased in Ireland, which had now been in existence for 16 years,
1848 to 22,000; and the summary convictions, with in had gain, d ground during the whole of that perio • d, and
1845 were 3.800, in 1848 became 7.700. or double the had gained the upprotation of every religious denomi•
number. The gaol built to conWo 500 prisoners now natiou.—(llear, hear.) It was a system fiee to all, and
held 1,100; and the evil was increased in other respects imposed disabilities upon none.—(El. ar.) Taking the
to such a d gree, that the industrious classes cannot pro- explanation of the Hon . Member as to the system in the
cure employment in consequence of the ereat competition University, ho could not see in what respect it differed
iii the labour market. The Right Hon. Gentlenan op- in principle from the system of national education
Posite, the President of the Board, sent Captain Denham applied to the junior members of the Univer-hy.
to inquire into the subject, whose report was now before erne lion. Menthe r had appealed to the Roman Citthoac
the Ileuse. A more sorrowful d, cement was never laid Members of that House to euppert him, but he believed
on the table. He would not trouble the House of Corn- that the feelings of the Roman Catholic population had
Mons, acquainted as all were with the 'terrible fatality entirely cheep:el on that (pennon. The -Right lion.
Which occurred on board the Lend tnnerry steatner; but Gentleman proceeded to quote from Plowden's History
°he captain says that 300 are often on deck during a a petition presented by Mr. Grattan in 1792, to show
Passage, which sometimes lasts for twenty-four hour e; that it had not always been a principle of the Roman
that there was space below for the ace nimodation of Catholic Church to oppose a mixed education; on the
about 100, but none on deck except for cattle. Captain contrary, in that petition from the Roman Catholics of
Denham says that the deck space allowed was a square Ireland, net of any particular part of it, the benefits of
Yard to two persons, and that the whole deck on the ar- the intercourse which must arise from such a system
rival of one of these steamers was crowded with passen- were distinctly set forth with reference to the University
Rats, filled with animal mire, and otherwise in the most or Dublin.—(dear.) The Hon. Member had assumed
frightful and horrible condition. He states that in that the majority of the Protestants of Ireland were op-
a rough voyage of' twenty-eight hours, from Dublin, a pcsed to it, and said he could not understand how any
space on deck was set apart for 400 people, which was clergyman could, in accordance teat hi
ordination vows,
Only 28 feet by 13; that these unfortunate creatures give it hie support. He believed that at least five hundred
Were thrown among the cattle, when they sought clergymen were in its favours a large majority of the
for a little animal heat; and altogether, as another Protestant laity were of the same c pinion; and, taking
commander states, the scene would make the the fact that they had a majority of Protestants, as well
stoutest heart ache. Bat if that occurred in as a majority of Roman Catholics in its favour, he
Ptaddle-steamers, it was still worse in those propelled thought they were fully entitled to sty that it was really
by Screw, where they were exposed on the one band to a national system.—(Hear, hear.) In the midst of much
the washing of the tea, and on the other to all the filth obloquy and opposition trio system had gradually and
and wretchedness of the cattle among which they were steadily extended itself, and even as compared with
thrown. In cases, he believed, of women taken in la- last year, there was a considerable increase of schools
hour, they may be an exception, but deaths frequently and scholars. The increase on the year was 104,833
Occurred, and police constables say they even saw per- scholars, and the total number in the schools was
Bone absolutely frozen to death, from the inclemency of 507,417.—(i1ear, hear.) He thought that in the midst
a night, on the deck of these steamers. The Right Hon. of the distress, suffering, and difficulties of Ireland, the
Gentleman opposite promised that the law should put tact that they had now upwards of 500,000 children in
down the practice of crowding vessels; and he would say their schools was one of the most consolatory nature con-
the House must be prepared to deal with the whole sub- nected with that country, and gave hopes of a better fu-
ject, for they could not leave 10,000 persons a month tore. He felt that the country were under a deep debt
landed at a single port totally destitute. That was a of gratitude to Lord Stanley and the Government
.by
state of facts which those who represented large con- whom the system was instituted, and he would add they
stituencies were cognizant of; and having thus called also owed gratitude to 1)r. Whateley, the Archbishop of
attention to it he should leave the matter to the consi- Dublin, and to Mr. Blako—whose death he lamented—
deration of his Hon. Friend and the Government. He for their efforts to establish this system.—(Hear, hear.)
hoped, therefore, that a remedy would be provided before Ile believed the increase of schools and scholars in con-
met again against this most terrible evil.
they flexion with instruction in improved agriculture was the
Mr. LABOUCHERE observed that in consequence best guarantee of permanent future progress in Ireland,
of the representations made to him, he did send Cep- and while he regretted that his Hon. Friend should have
tain Denham to Liverpool, and he took that course, not felt it to be his duty to re-open this question, he confi-
with the desire of limiting the transmission of paupers dently call, d upon the House to reject his motion, and
from Ireland, for if it were to be checked it ought not support a system which had been proved to be so bane-
to be by raising the price of the passage. He held that ficial.—(Hear, hear.)
the poor men who came, not as paupers, but to work, Lord BERNARD wished to warn the House against
had a peefect right to come over as cheap as they could, le, log deluded by the deceptive reports of the Educa.
and, therefore, in this instructions to Captain Denham, tional Board with reseect to the feeling of the people of
he directed him to confine himself to the manner in Ireland on the subject. He could assure them that the
Which they were treated on beard, and he did think that feeling against it was as strong as ever, and the petition
a case was made out for the interference of the Govern- that had been presented that day from 91,000 friends of
ment. He thought, however, that it was most important Roman Catholic families was a proof of it. In fact he
that the cheeks shout to be med., should not be cheeks to could state positively that the system was an utter
the emigration of the Irish emigrants. He should be failure. He denied that the clergy of the Established
sorry to put any cheek whatever on their coming over : Church were in its favour. He held in his hand a curious
but for the sake of their common humanity it was ab- historical document, as to the comparative position of
solutely necessary they should interfere to prevent the the National Schools and the Church Society Schools,
improper crowding of persons on board steamers coming in the county of Cork. The increase in the number of
'
from the Irish ports- In the s' iril‘of the rep rt made Nationals Schools hod been 16; in those of the Scrip-
he fully concurred, ant piennised
the Board of Yearley should be dire.cttat tehentstleibnjteicotn of curet Schools, 19. In tee number of scholars there had
been a decrease of 12,339 in the National Schoo!s, and
Mr. SPOONER suggested to the N.,ble L erd the p'ro- an increase of 5,635 in the Church Society Schools. The
priety of withdrawing his motion, for although he should expense p r head, in the National Schools, was 151. 103.-,
be obliged, if it went to a division, to vote against it, while in the Church Schools it was only 3/ 104. In that
yet he must do so with great reluctance. • year (1847) there had been altogether a decrease of
Mr. SLANEY believed the important subject then 55,7e8 scholars in the National Schools, and an increase
under consideration was about being brought to a close, of 20,000 in the Church Schools. So that when the Hon.
and he would not di-cuss it, thercle th. at any greater Gentleman spoke of the increase in and extension of the
length. The case made by the Chief Commissioner was National Schools, notwithstanding the deep distress
no doubt must ably stated, but no man yet said any- which existed in Ireland, ho was giving the Howe an
thing about the burden Icing on the increase, arising from incorrect view of the case. With regard to the model
the fact that while the upper and middle classes were school, and the agricultural school, how could it be said
improving in wealth, the working classes were retro- that the rules of these could not be laid on the table
grading. He should therefore ask the HOLM at a fu. until next year? He believed that a systems of national