The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-01 00:00:00

is to be found in the double fact, that the mass will
not submit to laws which impose unnecessary re-
straints, and that the responsibility of every agent
is constant, direct, and severe. We often say among
ourselves—' What matters who is President or Go-
vernor—he cannot do any harm: Now, rely on it,
if there were any self-government in the case he
could do a great deal of harm. So tremendously effica-
cious is public opinion, and so constant and sudden
the action of popular will, that I do believe a man
might be taken from a penitentiary and put into the
Presidential chair, and (provided he could be kept
from stealing the spoons and abconding) it should
he found that he would maintain a tolerably clean
life, and a reasonably dignified deportment."—
Morning Chronicle.

The struggle for Dorsetshire is likely to be much
more sharply contested than was at first supposed.
The Anti-R?formers have resolved to sacrifice every
thing, even money itself, in the hope of securing
what they know to be money's worth to them and
their friends—the present farce of representation.
With this view they have set a large subscription
on foot to secure the return of, Lord Ashley. It is
said that as much at thousand pounds has been
already subeeribed ; and that one gentleman, Mr.
Brown, of Frampton, contributed two thousand
pounds of that sum. Still the friends of Mr. Pon-
sonby and Reform arc as ardent as ever; and though
our correspondent, whose communication will be
found in another column, notices the drain of cash
which the popular party experienced at the last elec-
tion as an unfavourable circumstance for the present
contest, he evidently participates in the general im-
pression that the people will prove true to them-
selves. After what Dorsetshire has already done,
it would be ungenerous to doubt its zeal upon this
second, and, if possible, more important occasion.
—Morning Herald.

The caustic observations which Sir Robert Peel
indulged in the other evening, on that splendid
specimen of penal legislation, the Spring-Gun Bill,
were not too severe for the subject that called them
forth. If any thing could make Ministeis in general,
and Lord Melbourne inlparticular, ashamed ofladding
to a Statute-book, that breathes in all its pages the
spirit of barbarism, a new law founded on a principle
equally absurd and inhuman, it would be the taunt-
ing remarks with which it supplied S;r Robert Peel,
at the expence of the consistency of the Whig
statesmen, who, when out of office, had so long pro-
fessed a most virtuous and uncompromising zeal in
the cause of rational and enlightened criminal juris-
prudence. It is melancholy to think that the pos-
session of power should have such a fatal influence
upon the understandings of men, that the politicians
who had made it a point of duty, as it were, to assail
the irrational and vindictive legislation of Sir Robert
Peel, should have furnished the legislator whose ca-
pacity they impugned, and whose reputation they at-
tacked, with the best apology for all that was objec-
tionable in his works by surpassing, in their first
effort of penal legislation, his least rational examples.
It was, if we mistake not, upon principle, that
the Whigs a few days ago advocated the abolition of
spring-guns, as a barbarous and atrocious invention,
unfit to have the sanction of law in any age or in
any country ; and yet the Whigs have not been a
year in office, when we find the character of the
country is again to be disgraced, and the name of
preventive justice desecrated, by a revival of this
most treacherous and cowardly contrivance to shed
the blood of man by a process of assassination
which cannot wake any distinction between the in-
nocent and the guilty. Well might Sir Robert
Peel say that " when the present Government was
formed he certainly expected that some very en-
lightened
system of jurisprudence would have been
adopted ; but what was his astonishment to find
that the only measure which Ministers had pro-
posed, relative to the criminal laws, was a revival
of the law which allowed the setting of spring-
guns 1 It was cruel that the monument which
had been erected to the Honourable Member
for Stamford, in honour of his exertions for
the abolition of spring-guns, should thus be
undermined by his own friends." Never was
there a bitter sneer more richly deserved. If Lord
Melbourne do riot feel it, he must, indeed, be gifted
with a moral constitution invulnerable to the force of
cutting reproof. We have said that this assassination
by machinery is equally absurd and inhuman. It is
absurd, notwithstanding the solemn dictum of the
Courier on that subject, as a protection to property
against fire; for, without taking into account what
a morning contemporary has observed, as to the dis-
charge of a spring-gun itself being a probable cause
of setting the stack on fire which it was set to guard,
we would remind our readers that the burnings in
general which took place last year in farmers' stack-
yards occurred under circumstances which induced
the belief of a chemical preparation having been prc-
jceted f,om a distance into the stacks and other agri-
cultural property so consumed, which made it un-
necessary for the guilty party to enter the premises
in order to effect the work of destruction. But
under all circumstances, and whether the incen-
diaries find it necessary to enter the premises or
not, we contend that the diabolical contrivance of
the spring-gun is more likely to destroy the lives
of the innocent than the guilty. The man who has
guilty intentions will be wary and circumspect,
where the man who meditates no harm will be care-
less. The one will contrive means of destroying
the property with as little risk as possible, while
the other will walk into the ambuscade of a spring-
gun from mere thoughtlessness. When spring-guns
used to be set in preserves, not only mere tres-
passers and nut-gatherers often perished byt hem, but
even the very gamekeepers that set them some-
times fell victims to the blind vengeance of their
own sanguinary arts. But in the mean time game
was not the more secure, or the poachers the less
successful. If there be a notice in the day-time, of
what avail can it be in the night; or, even in the
day, to a child or illiterate person ? In short,
nothing can exceed the barbarity of this contrivance,
as a protection to properly, but its folly.—Morning
Herald.

The question, " What will the Lords do ?" be-
comes daily of more absorbing interest. We have
still to make the same answer. The Lords will do
that which their consciences dictate ; a love of their
country, and of those institutions which have ren-
dered their country great and powerful, will point
out to them the course to pursue. They will re-
member, uninfluenced by passing clamour, that the
specific object for which Governments are instituted
is the protection of property. This principle is
acted upon every day in ordinary affairs. The di-
rectors of commercial associations are uniformly
chosen from among the largest shareholders, because
their great stake gives them the strongest interest to
study the general good. The interest of the smaller
liareholders is virtually represented by the larger,
and all are protected where the management is prin-
cipally entrusted to the latter. So in the Govern-
ment of States. Democratical interests are repre•
sented in the aristocratical, but aristocratical interests
are not represented in democratical. The public good,
therefore, requires that aristocratic interests should be
represented in the House of Commons, and it is be-
cause they have hitherto been so represented that
the empire has enjoyed so long a course of pros-
perity. Democracy ought to have, as it bad, its due
share of representation, because all power is liable to
abuse ; but if a preponderance were given to it, it
would inevitably unsettle, and ultimately destroy,
the system by which all interests are now equally
protected. The Reform Bill gives this prepon-
derance; it places power in the hands of those who
are incapable of using it fairly, and who have an
immediate interest in disturbing the existing ar-
rangement of property. Unless agriculture, manu-
factures, commerce, the Colonies, the Church, the
monied and shipping interests were severally repre-
sented in the House of Commons, they would be
placed in continual jeopardy. Rank and other dis-
tinctions can be protected only in the same way;
but property is the most important consideration, as
it virtually represents every other kind of social
pre-eminence. Now it has happened that what may

be called the more permanent interests of the
country, the monied, colonial, and in a great measure
the agricultural interests, have come to be repre-
sented by means of the small boroughs ; these the
Bill sweeps away, and leaves an overwhelming pre-
ponderance to be returned by large towns. It
leaves, in short, a vast mass of permanent and vital
national interests at the mercy of democratical
caprice. The Lords know their duty ; they will
refuse their sanction to such a measure as this, and
in so doing maintain the honour and prosperity of
the empire.—Morning Post.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

110 USE OF LORDS, Si PTEMBLR 30.

The Loan CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack Ten Minutes before Five o'clock.

Mr. CRAMPTON, Mr.. O'FARRELL, Mr. I:italic's BA-
mr,s, and others from the Comtnoni, brought up the
Public Works (Ireland) BM, the Ir6ll Embankment Bill,
the Marquis of Bute's Estate Bill, the Common Law
Officers' Fees Bill, the Charity Commissioners' Bill, and
a Private Bill.

The Eighth Report of the Commissioners of the Holy.
head Roads Bill was also brought up.
Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition from a parish
in Galway, in favour of the Galway Franchise Bill.
Lord POLTINIORE presented two petitions from places
in Devon in favour of the Reform Bill.

Lord ROLLE presented a petitio❑ from Exeter against
the Reform Bill.
_.

Lord CLIFDEN presented a petition from a diocese in
Ireland, praying for a full composition of tidies in that
country, and complaining of the extreme hardships they
were subject to under the present system.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH thought the compo-
sition of tithes in Ireland should be made compulsory.
The Earl of WICKLOW supported the prayer of the
petition, observing that in that part of the country where
the petition came from, there was a regular organized sys-
tem to repel the payment of tithes, and unless Government
interfered, it was his firm belief there would soon be a re-
jection of payment of every species of tax.
Lord CARBERRY was afraid any longer to oppose
the composition of tithes being made compulsory. He
agreed with the Noble Earl who had just spoken on the
necessity of interference on the part of the Government,
in that district from which the petition came.
Lord MORLEY presented a petition from Plymouth,
praying their Lordships to pass the Reform Bill as
speedily as possible.—(Hear.) It was his conviction
if their Lordships adopted the principles of that great
• measure, it would be the means of securing that peace and
contentment in the country which was so much desired,
and would act as a great stimulus to the disorderly to be-
come industrious and useful members of society.
Lord ROLLE presented a petition from certain of the
freemen of Exeter, praying their Lordships not to pass
any Bill which went to deprive them of their franchise.
Earl 'MORLEY—Iie had in his hand a petition from
the inhabitants of Plymouth, in favour of the great mea-
sure of Reform now pending in their Lordships' House.
A petition had before been presented from the same
borough in favour of the Reform Bill in the earlier stages
of its progress ; and now that the Bill bad come into their
Lordships' House, the inhabitants of Plymouth had
thought it incumbent on them again most earnestly to
petition their Lordships to pass the Bill ; and to show
that the feeling in favour of the Bill had not only not
abated but bad grown more intense, he had to state that the
present petition was signed by three times as many persons
as had signed the former petition.—(Hear, hear.) The
petitioners stated their conviction, that on the passing of
this Bill depended in a great measure the peace and pros-
perity of the country—that the excitement would never
cease until an efficient measure of Reform had passed—
and that it was then only that the people of this country
would return to their ordinary habits of industry. Even
the Noble Lords on the other side of the House, with
the exception of two or three persons, admitted that
some rek r.n was necessary. But the people would not
he satisfied without a real and efficient Reform, and there-
fore those who approved of Reform ought to vote for the
present measure.

The Duke of SUSSEX presented a petition from the
county of Middlesex, requesting their Lordships to pass the
Reform Bill. In presenting the petition his Royal High-
ness observed that, in consequence of the informality in the
petition (it being signed only by the two Sheriffs) lie could
present it only as the petition of those individuals, yet he
could assure their Lordships that it was agreed to at a
most numerous meeting, and where but one opinion ex•
fisted on this great measure. His Royal Highness would
not, at the present moment, enter into the merits
of this great question that was to come before their
Lordships on Monday next, as he considered there
would be a much more fitting occasion for doing so, and
he bt I laid it down as a rule that nothing irritating should
fall from him either one side of the subject or the other.
His only wish was the interest of his country.
His Royal Highness then presented petitions to a similar
effect from Ludlow, Ross, Cripplvg-ate Within and
Without, Boston, Wintry Ward, Bridgew.iter, Banbury,
Epworth, Redruth, Haverton, and Gosford.
On the motion of Lord TENTERDEN, the order of
the day for bringing up the report on the Prescription
Bill was discharged, and the report was ordered to be
brought up on Friday next.
The Earl of CAMPERDOWN, in presenting a
number of petitions from Scotland on the subject
of Reform, said in the discussion of the question
last night a distinction was attempted to be drawn
between Reform in England and in Scotland.—(Hear.)
But the people of Scotland knew no such distinction, for
they were well aware that if the Bill on their Lordship's
table were thrown out, there would be no Reform
for them.--(Hear, hear.) The whole of the petitions
he had to present were in favour of that measure
brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He was
sure their Lordships would pass the Bill, as by it,
the privileges of the aristocracy would be secured,
and placed on a tirm and sure foundation. The Noble Lord
then presented petitions in favour of Reform—three from
Dundee, one front Haddington, one from Dunbar, one
from Inverkeithing, one from Musselburgh, two from Ar-
broath, five from Montrose, one from Aueliterarder,
and five others from plac,s in Scotland, the names of
which we could not learn.

Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition in favour of Re.
form from nine Corporations of the borough of Dundee;
and other three from places in Scotland, the names of
which were inaudible at the bar.

•
Lord MELBOURNE presented petitions in favour of
Reortn from Shepton Mallet, Melton Mowbray, and
tither places.
SUNDERLAND PETITION FOR REFORM.

The Marquis of CLEVELAND—He had petitions in
favorr of the great measure of Reform, to he presented to
their Lord-hips, from Sunderland and some other places
in the county of Durham. The petitioners had but a
very short time for signing these petitions—only the few
days since the Bill had come into this House; but, not-
withstanding the shortness of the time, the petitions had
been very numerously and respectably signed. The Noble
Marquis at the table (Londonderry) would recollect that
he had expressed some doubt as to the feeling in favour of
the Reform Bill being so general in the county of Durham
as it bad, by many, been supposed to be. A petition in
favour of the Bill had been agreed to at a meeting of the
county of Durham on a former occasion, and presented to
this House by a Noble Friend of his, who was now absent
from indisposition. He himself was not present at that
meeting, but he certainly thought that it had correctly ex-
pressed the opinion of the county. But he was now con-
vinced that the opinion of the county of Durham, in
favour of the great measure of Reform, was nearly as
universal and unanimous as it was possible for the
opinion of a considerable county to be on any subject.
He had resided for the greater part of his life in the
county of Durham, and had for a long time had
his Majesty's commission there as Lord Lieutenant.--
He had some property in the county, and was very
generally acquainted with the rnost respectable part of
the population; and he was convinced that the general
feeling was in favour of the great measure of Reform.—
The first petition from Sunderland was signed by 4,068
persons ; the present petition was signed by 6,725 persons
—a tolerable proof that the feeling in Imo'. of Reform
had not abated at that place, but had, on the contrary,
become more intense. The Noble Marquis had a large
property in that county, and, under these circumstances, it
might reasonably be expected that he would vote with
him (Cleveland) and the other Noble Lords on his side
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) There was in the county
of Durham a great deal of Church property, and be
thought it justly due to the body of the Clergy there to
say that they had taken no part in this political question.
Some individual Clergymen had, indeed, attended meet-
ings,i and joined with other gentlemen of the county n
promoting petitions for Reform. But the conduct of the
Clergy in general bad been such as he had stated it to be.
The city of Durham had agreed to a petition in favour of
Reform, which was to be presented by a Noble Friend of
his. There were certainly some apprehensions entertained
out of doors that the Reform Bill would not be favourably
receivel iu their Lordships' House; but he hoped that
these apprehension, were unfounded, Indeed it would be

better for their Lordships to pass the Bill now, for if they
rejected the Bill at present it would be brought in again,
and must he passed, for• the matter would certainly not rest
there.—(Hear, hear.)
liisLotensHtr then presental petitions in favour of Reform
from Sunderland and Bishopswearmouth, from Darling-
ton, Banbury Castle, and Gateshead. The Gateshead
petition prayed their Lordships to pass a measure which
would restore the Constitution, which was now reduced to
a shadow, to ancient and proper vigour and power, and
render it the bulwark of the prerogatives of the Throne,
of the dignity and the just privileges of the Peers, and the
liberties of the people.—(Hear.)
A NOBLE LORD presented a petition to the same effect
from a place in Somcrsetshire, and from Dumfries, in
Scotland.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that per-
haps the difference between him and the NU)le Marquis
might arise from their being best acquainted with differ-
ent parts of the county of Durham, but he was still rather
inclined to believe that the opinion in that county was
not so general in favour of Reform as it had been repre-
sented to be. He thought that to trouble their Lordship
further upon the subject at that moment would be irre-
gular and inexpedient—when the measure to which the
petition referred came regularly before their Lordships,
he should give his vote free from any sort of bias whatever.
The Marquis of CLEVELAND said, that a Noble
Friend of his had a petition to present from the city of
Durham itself, as well as from the county.
The petition Was laid on the table.
The Duke of BUCKINGHANI, calling their Lord-
ships' attention to the vast number of petitions which
were to be presented to the House on the subject of Par-
liamentary 'Morin, ds'u'ted very much whether there
would be time for their presentation, consistently with so
speedily • disposing of the Reform Bill as must be the
general wish of Noble Lords. Probably, then, it would
be thought not inexpedient to sit on Saturday (to-day), for
the put pose of receiving petitions. He was sure that great
and most inconvenient delay must ensue, unless some ar-
rangement be adopted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR fully agreed with the
Noble Duke that much inconvenience must be the conse-
quence of their not coming to some understanding respect-
ing petitions. At the same time, it would be impossible
for them to sit on Saturday, as that day would be abso-
lutely necessary for the purpose of completing the ventila
tion of the House. He had himself many petitions to
present, and, so far as the number of signatures and the
respectability of the parties signing them gave value to a
petition, those with which he had the honour to be en-
trusted must be considered as possessing the very highest
value ; hut, nevertheless, in opening them to the House,
he was resolved to do so as shortly as possible, and, so far
as humble example could go, to promote the saving of
time upon so urgent and important an occasion. The fact
was, that :15 the petitions entrusted to him came from per-
' sons of landed property—from persons possessed of cor-
porate rights—and also from persons of great wealth and
intelligence, he should in ordinary times make it his busi-
ness to address the House at some length upon each indi-
vidual petition ; but were he to attempt to do so in the
present instance, his strength would, he was sure, prove
utterly inadequate to the undertaking ; neither would the
time of their Lordships suffice, even if they sat till twelve
o'clock at night. Ile should now lay before the House
some of the petitions which had been forwarded to him.
The first was from the great town of Leeds. The former
petition from that town, on the same subject, received in
seven days the prodigious number of 17,000 signatures;
but the present petition, in two days, was signed by no
less than 21,400. The next was from Kingston-upon-
Hull, signed by 6,277. The Noble Lord then pro-
ceeded with petitions from St. Saviour's (Southwark),
Whiteburch (Salop), Biddeford, Dumfries (signed by
1,000) Kinghorn, Cockermouth, East Wemyss (though
a village, the petition was signed by 347 persons, Fal-
mouth, Keswick, Kettle, Irving, Totness, Kidderminster
(signed by 1,572), Scarborough (900 signatures), Rich-
mond ( Yorkshire), a place, be observed, which, though
not extensive or populous, was wealthy and respectable—
it had 800 signatures ; Dalkeith, with 1,755 signatures ;
Balfour, Andover, Londale, Hy the (Kent), Taunton, St.
Mary, Newington, the parish of Paddington (900 names),
Portsmouth (with 3,100), the parish of Lambeth, with
2,600, and several other places. The Noble Lord then
proceeded to state, that he had a different class of petitions
to present—petitions by no means so bulky, nor bearing
so many signatures—they proceeded from Corporate Bodies
having charters ; and the petitions bearing the seal of the
Corporation were to be received as the petition of the Cor-
poration. The first of these was from the Corporation of
Goldsmiths of Edinburgh ; from the Chamber of Com-
merce, Edinburgh—a body long distinguished for their
loyalty. Then followed petitions from the Corporations
of Perth, Cupar, Dunfermline ; the Corporation of St.
Mary, Edinburgh ; the Ciceronian Society of Liverpool,
He observed that some Noble Lords smiled at the mention
of that name, but he could assure them, from his local
knowledge, that societies of that nature had in Liverpool
been productive of much advantage, had diffused know-
ledge and cultivated a taste for literature and science, and,
what was more, had produced much improvement in the
art of public speaking. Liverpool could not only number
amongst its inhabitants men of considerable literary emi-
nence, b•.t several who had very saccess'Ully cultivated the
art of public speaking. The Noble Lord then proceeded
with petitions from the nine Incorporated Trades of Leith,
and from the parish of St. Jamt s, Clerkenwell. This pe-
tition was certainly signed but by the Churchwarden ; it
nevertheless proceeded from a very respectable meeting,
and he regretted that it could only be received as the peti-
tion of the individual by whom it was signed. He had
now I lid before their Lordships fifty-four petitions, and he
need scarcely say, that if lie had opened them at length,
the operation would have taken up too much time. He
trusted that their Lordships would not allow any thing to
delay their proceeding with the Bill itself; at the same
time he could not but feel it was of the very highest im-
portance that the petitions of the people should be received
with doe attention ; therefore he should suggest the expe-
diency of in, eting on Monday at an earlier hour than usual.
It might, perhaps, be found convenient to apply altogether
to business during the earlier part of the day—(No, no)
that he merely threw out for consideration.
A NOBLE Lumen presented a petition in favour of the
Reform Bill from the city of Lichfield, signed by 400
pet sons.
Lord STUART DE ROTHSAY presented similar pe-
titions from Dundee; from six incorporated trades of
Brechin; from Forfar, Montrose, the weavers and glovers
of Forfar ; the hammermen of Arbroath ; from Kilsythe,
and various other places, being twenty-two in number. '

proposem u id faseveral petitionsexan,pi
e
toghetosl
set him by his Noble and Learned Friend, and occupy as
Lordoe same L€ll.l.2,leNt,D,
said n
thatrisin
little as possible of their Lordships' time in laying before
them certain petitions with which he had been entrusted.
In looking at these petitions, he confessed it did give him
great satisfaction to see such a feeling as that which had
been manifested by the people of England ; but he thought
the House would best respond to that sentiment by pro-
cecding, with as little delay as possible, in the great duty
which they had to perform. There was another circum-
stance which, he confessed, he looked upon with great sa-
tisfaction, namely, that whereas on the former occasions
many of the petitions demanded vote by ballot and annual
Parliaments, there was now not one of them went beyond
the Bill, which stood for a second reading on Monday
next. Again, it was to be observed, that on the former,
though many of the petitions were most numerously signed
in a short space of time, _yet now the case was still stronger,
for there were many petitions signed in a much shorter
space of time, and by a much greater number of persons.
The first petition which he should have to present was
front a corporate body, and one with which he had the
honour to be connected—it was from the Corporation of
Nottingham, a body whose att ichtnent to the House of
Brunswick, and the Constitution of 1688, had been
frequently proved. Not only had he petitions in
favour of the Bill from that, but front other cor-
porations—petitions in favour of a Bill which went
to circumscribe their own privileges. It would thus
be seen how far the corporations themselves looked upon
that as corporation robbery, which had been falsely
so designated. The town whence the present peti-
tion proceeded contained a population eminently dis
tinguished for industry and intelligence. Here there
was a petition, signed by 13,000 in the shert space of
three days. It had been said that it was easy to obtain
petitions numerously signed from populous districts, where
the people expected they would derive advantage from the
proposed change ; but that was an objection to which the
petition from Nottingham was not open, for the people of
that place were already represented in Parliament, and the
Bill would diminish the privileges of many of those by.
whom the petition was signed : they considered that the
most wholesome practice would he, to have the Commons
House of Parliament elected by the Commons of England,
even though they themselves might be sufferers by the re-
sult. Thus this House would see that there was not the
sl ghtest abatement of the zeal and anxiety felt on the sub-
ject of parliamentary Iletbrin. The Noble Lord, in addi-
tion to the petition from Nottingham, presented some others
to the same effbct.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said, that what had
fallen front the Noble Lord only proved the necessity which
there was for their coining to some arrangement on the
subject of presenting petitions. It was really impossible

for Noble toidi to present petitions withotel stating
whence they came, the numbers by whom they Bete
signed, the respectability of the petitioners; the circum-
stances attending its adoption, and those under which it
might have been placed in the hands of this Peer present-
ing it. He need not say that that must lead to prctracting
of the debates on the Reform Bill to a degree scarcely
consistent with the dignity of Parliament; or the peace of
the country. He thought it would be very convenient if
the House would agree to meet at four, and take petitions
from four o'clock to six, and determine that after six they
would not receive any petitions. It was evident that
unless they adopted some arrangement they could not
get on.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with the Noble
Duke that they must fall on some expedient to advance the
Bill, and he thought the suggestion just made was very ju-
dicious. It had been proposed that they should meet as
early as two o'clock, or three ; but he feared that at that
hour they could not reckon upon a sufficiently full atten-
dance of Peers, at least such an attendance as would or
ought to satisfy the petitioners. They might, following the
example of the other House of Parliament, set apart par-
ticular days for receiving petitions ; but he always doubted
the expediency of that proceeding ; perhaps the other
House might make more free with its constituents than
that House could with the people having no constituents.
In this matter be certainly thought the example of the
other House was rather to lyt avoided than followed. For
the present, be thought the best art angement would lie to
meet on Mond ty, at four o'clock, and agree to stop taking
the petitions at six. He hoped, that in presenting petitions,
they would feel there was no absolute necessity fur opening
them at much length, at least, each individual petition.
Lord HOLLAND had no objection to the proposed ar-
rangement ; but he would maintain that there was no day
of its sitting when the walls of Parliament should be closed
against the petitions of the people. The Noble Lord then
presented petitions from the county of Nottinghatn, front
Boston, from Coventry, and other places.
The Duke of HAMILTON presented petitions to the
same effect from Linlithgow, Dumbarton, Lanark, New
Lanark, and front Lancaster.

Earl 3IANVERS presented a petition from the palish
of Mirylebone to the same effect.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented similar petitions
from a place in the county of Ayr, from Woolwich, from
Wellingborough, from Northampton, from East and West
Stockwell, signed by 1,500. The Noble Duke fulls• con-
curred in the proposed arrangement for taking petitions
from four to six o'clock.
WINE DUTIES.

Lord AUCKLAND then moved the order of the day
for the third reading of the Wine Duties Bill. Ile observed,
that there would, under the Bill, he a small increase of
the duty on some wines and a decrease on others, so as to
equalize the duties on all foreign wine. The Noble Lord
then stated the scale of duties. Cape nine was form: rly
subject to a duty of 2°. 3d. ; French to 7s. 3d., and all other
wines to 4s. 10.1.—it was now proposed to make the ditty
on Cape wine 2s. 9d., and all foreign ss. 6d. It was ex-
pected that this change would not have the eff ct of diminish-
ing the consumption of wine, and it was calculated that the
increase of revenue would not be less than 176,0001., so
that whether it was viewed as a matter of finance or com-
mercial regulw ion, it was equally free from objection. Jr
was quite a mistake to suppose that the present measure
was diet tted by any spirit of hostility towards Portugal—
it merely went to remove that which was actual and direct
hostility and injury to France. It was in the highest
degree inexpedient that between two countries so nearly
connected there should exist any bar to the freedom of
commercial intercourse. If, as had been said, that mea-
sure should be regarded by Portugal as hostile to her in•
tercets, he could not see what the retaliation was to which
some Noble Lords seemed to apprehend the Portu-
guese Government would resort.—(Bear.) The whole
quantity of wine exported from that country was eighty
thousand pipes annually, and of those sixty thousand fotind
their way to this country. Under those circumstances, it
teas not by increasing the duties upon British manufactures
the Portuguese Government would attempt to retaliate, as,
by doing so, they must diminish the consumption of their
own wines in the country in which the greatest quantity
of them is used.

7'7 Lord ABERDEEN did not agree with the Noble Baron
in considering that measure as one merely of finance, or
one of sound commercial policy. He thought that the
expectations which the Noble Lord entertairnd of ad-
vantages to accrue to the revenue from the Bill before the
House would be disappointed, and that as a commercial
measure, it would prove extensively injurious.—(Hrar,
bear.) But he had, besides, other reasons, of a higher
nature, which compelled him to view it as impolitic
and unjust. He was aware that there had been a
great diversity of opinions upon this subject amongst
persons of high authority upon such questions.—( Hear.)
He was aware that in the discussion of the commercial
treaty with France, in 1787, Mr. Fox spoke of the Me-
thuen treaty as the commercial darling of England ; he
knew 5155 that it had been contended that, under that
treaty, this country had the right to put an end to the
treaty, if we chose to give up the advantages which we
derived from it. But he believed that such a course was
quite unparalleled amongst friendly nations, when it was
intended to maintain that relation.—(Hear.) Nor did his
argument rest there. Ile contended existing treaties had
already been violated by the manlier in which that mea-
sure had been proposed. For the last twenty-five years
the Methuen treaty did not exist on the same conditions
on which it rested before. It became embodied in the
treaty entered into at Rio Janeiro in 1810 ; by which it
was stipulated that the treaties already existing between
England and Portugal should continue unaltered. It was
also contracted that each party should be at liberty to re-
view the treaties at the end of fifteen years, for the pur-
pose of alteration, on giving notice to the other party.
Now the Portuguese Government had had no notice
given them of the deviation from the Methuen treaty
proposed by the Bill before their Lordships, and the
measure was, therefore, a direct violation of the treaty
of 1810. If it should be said that the stipulations of
the latter treaty did not apply to the treaty of Methuen, he
would ask how was it that the duty of twenty-three per
cent. imposed by the Methuen treaty upon British woollen
and other manufactures, was reduced, by that of 1810, to
fifteen per cent. ? That duty of fifteen per cent. was con-
tinued until the Cortes was established is Portugal in
1822. Now he would remind their Lordships that if ever
there was a period when hostility was manifested on the
part of a Portuguese Government towards this country,
it was under the Cortes.—(Hear.) They restored the
old duty of twenty-three per cent. upon woollen manufac-
tures, according to the Methuen treaty. They said they
did not care for a treaty contracted at Rio de Janeiro, but
they would adhere to that which had been entered into
with Cromwell, and had subsisted from the year 1654 to
their time. But the alteration was resisted by this country,
and with justice, on the grounds that the treaty of Me-
thuen, as well as the other treaties, was embraced in that
of 1810. If the treaty of Methuen wig to be taken se-
parately from the latter, then Portugal would undoubtedly
be entitled to the duty of twenty-three per cent. If it
was not to be separated, then the stipulation of the treaty
of 1810 must apply to it, that neither party was at liberty
to depart from the, terms of the treaty without notice to
the other party of the intended alteration. He had said,
that he doubted the expectations of the Noble Lord as
to financial advantages. If the consumption of French
wines should be increased in proportion to the di-
minution of the duty, it was equally probable that
the consumption of Portuguese wine would be di-
minished in proportion to the increase of the duty
upon it. If the demand for these French wines, of the
sorts which had hitherto found their way into this country,
should increase, the effect of that increase upon the prices
in France would be such as to check the increase of con-
sumption here. As to the low-priced wines of France, the
diminution of the duties would have no effect upon the con-
sumption of those wines ; for they had not hither to been
excluded from this country by the price, but by the absence
of desire for them. What had been the effect of the expe-
riment already made to increase the consumption of French
wines by diminishing the duty ? It was first tried in
1825, and the number of gallons imported into England
in that year was one million. But the duty remaining the
same, the gallons imported in the last year were no more
than three hundred thousand.—(llear, hear.) That was
enough to show that the experiment had failed altogether.
Was it wise, then, ke would ask, to risk the loss of the
great export trade which we carried on with Portugal,
for the chance of advantages which experience inieht
convince us we were not likely to obtain ? He would
call on the Noble Lords opposite to consider the stagnation
of trade which now prevailed amongst our manufac-
turers and merchants, and he would ask Lim was it.
wise, for the sake of an experiment, to run the risk of
depriving them of the matlett which they possessed in
Portugal? lie would call on them to reflect that one-sixth
of all our experts to that continent was sent to the Peninsula.
Of our whole European exports, one-sixth part was sent
to the Peninsula, for in this case, it should be observed,
Spain was closely connected with Portugal. These two
nations were their best commercial customers ; and he
much feared, if this measure were carried, that a great
i
reduction must take place n a trade which had long been
most honeficially carried on., The exports of this country
to Portugal included no less than 67 aril: es ; arid he had
no doubt that with respect to some of them a competition,
which this 111VAILIIV Was calculated to produce, would