The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-22 00:00:00

, nf- rr• 1,4. 41, -.44, !, 14: r. 44,4,04,

11 Vl,7;::i, flu
tit SlO England at,U. tvaa 59:2
under the roor-lAw Atnerda.en( Act, and adding wine
which Lad been created tioder a,nbstquest Act, the
number of unions he wo:Oci talie to be 616. To every
eight of th,f,e lie w:,uld appoint a superiniendo,t, with a
;nary ,1 6001. per arnuca, of nh cii it shoed be under-
stooei Itia was to go for travellis,g expenses. To each
s 7:; et in met n. lie woidd Awe two chelis, at a sehary of
loOt, and he was coefidelit that the null( of the• poem-
law ceti'd be setisfacte rely di,ctuged by this st,ff, at, d
that, too. upon more j41A14.114.1 prirciples. A saving
of 30,560/. for supervision would arise at once from this
ariangement. The ehmition of the law of settlement
and the heavy law expenses, which it pas the means
of entailing on parishes, would render this system riot
only eesy of applicatioe, but h:g-itly eatisface,ry in
its reaults, lacause free eh cuLtien weal! then he given
to labour, hinds hitherto uncohivati d would at oeco be
brought into cultivation, end aha poor of the country,
from being a bureitrn to it, w,uld eventually become a
real benefit to it, by being prnfuelively empleyed. lle
himself called upon to speak to the great sufferings
arid peat erongs iriiitcted oil the poor. The poor man
out of work goes to the officer and a-ks for relief, and
the first question put to bier " Have you applied for
?" But there was a great fahicy in that. The
man who, p, rhsps, 11,d a wife rind family in a state of
want, was subjected to the greeteet hardship before re-
lief was give!, to him, under the operation of this sys-
tem. lie applies, for instance, for relief, and is informed
that he must appear ((gain adore the bond, before any
relief can he given to him. The hoard adjourns and meets
again ju a fortnight, meanwhile the peer man, requiring
relief and unable to cumin sui.p:irt, goes at:d lr,aks a
window, is taken into custody by the police, committed
by the magistrate for the offence, and after a certain
time in confinement, comes out better fed and in better
condition. He bad no hesitation in saying that a system
fraught with so much evil was most vicious, and be
therefore implored the House to grant a Committee.
The pressure of the system was most unjust, and he
begged the House, if the Government were riot disposed
to do any thing to cure so great an evil, to take the
matter into its own hands, and to give, at least, an an-
swer to the destitute poor, that it desired to see estab-
lished a system more equal, more just,and more humane.
The Noble Lord concluded by reading his motion.
Alr. Alderman SIDNEY said, in rising to second the
motion, he did so on grounds of justice, humanity, and
sound policy. He was enabled to show, from the Par-
hanientery returns published last year, that there had
been, in 28 of the metropolitan parishes, an average in-
crease of 36 per cant. in the year 1848, over the eight
preceding years; and he feund by the same returns that
the average increase of the rates of 28 manufacturing
towns in E.:gland, in the last year. was 84 per cent. over
the average of the eight preceding years. So, in like
manner, in the agricultural counties, twelve of which
paid 2s. 2d. and 3s. in the pound. He might give
another in-tance of the unequal operation of it it in the
parishes of St. Bride, and George, Hanover.square.
Li St. Bride the assessment was 3s. in the pound, and
in the wealthy pariah of St. George, Hanover square,
it was only 7id. in the pound. Then several of their
rich establishments escaped the payment of poor-
rates, from the circumstance of their being what
was termed " extra p,:ruchial," while the poor
and the industrious in the vicinity were not so fortu-
Date. The Bank of England and the Royal Exchange,
were cases of this sort, and came off ‘• scot free.
The country- was not satisfied why the people should in
one parish le subject to en assessment of 3s. or 4s. in the
r.und, and find their neighbours were Doi assessed at
all. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) was toe in the H use, as the case to which he was
now about to direct attention, concerned him. While the
bereugh or Tumwor th, for instance, was frilly assessed,
its dateable value 1:1111g £OOl. a year, another part of the
Bight lion. Baronet's preTerty, on which he built a fine
nouse, and which was turned to agricultural purposes,
was only assessed at 18s. 9d. Now, if justice was done,
Sir Uremia Peel, ire.tt-ad of relying lBs. 9e. in the year,
would have to pay 2001. How it was tout a tax, which
was a national tax, could be assessed on such unequal
terms appvered to him and to the country roost strange.
sphere in which he (Mr. Alderman S!ciney) moved
gave bite much opportunity of being in,ortm-d as to the
unequal operation of teis tax. The shopkeepers and
operative classes, in large t:iwns, felt the unequal and
severe pressure of the tale?, and cemplaieed bitterly of it,
the burden falling with p culier hardship on them. So,
in like manner, in the agricultural districts; in some
parishes, where there were wealthy proprietors and fen
poor, those proprietors scarcely paid any rates. lie
had that day heard a case wherein a poor woman who
had a husband and four sons engaged in the glass menu'
lecture?, but who, owing to the importations of foreign
::lass, were thrown out of work, and she was, in copse-
cla, nce, unable to pay her rates, three. quarters of which
she was in arrear of, and would gladly pay under other_
circumstances. In addition to the cases which he had
(greeted attention to, there were six poor parishes in thet
City, which were assessed, some at 2s. sd. and some a
3s, 4d. in the pound. He thou2,ht, looking at all those
circumstances, that he had made out a case for investee
gation. The Hon. Member then directed the attention_
of the House to the circumstance of a great number of
manufacturers engaged in the camlet trade in Norwich,
being thrown out or employment by that trade having
tattoo ~cr; vua while ..on was the condition of the
du.trious operative, the poor rate in Norwich was 5s and
6s. Bd. in the pound. In Leeds the poor-rates were si-
milar in their oppressive amount. Ile would not detain
the House longer than to Say that the question was not
confined to trading, manufacturing, or agricultural
interests; and that the poor ought to be considered in
relation to it with feelings of humanity. He considered
it was the duty of the legislature to see that so great a
'earthen] should not fall unequally, and with those feel-
ings he begged leave to second the motion of the Noble
Lord.

Mr. BAINES hoped his Honourable Friend who had
ust sat dawn would tot suppose loin to be guilty of any
disrespct towards him, i he declined to follow him in a
tong reply to all that he had stated. The questions of
the law of settlement and removal would of themselves
raLie discus ion. Neither did he propose to follow the
Noble Lord into the whole question of the opera-
d or
Lion of the poor-law enact, ent, the misconduct of the
000 r-law officers. Those were questions which of them-
., Ives formed in each case a very important subject.
file proposal mace by the Noble Lord on that occa-
--ton was not that of which he had previously given
notice. The former notice of motion was, that the
charge for the poor shuttle' be placed on the revenue
of the country. Sulnequently the motion of the
Noble Lord was to charge the support of the poor upon
pe income of the country, tad on the 7th June
;tat .motion vr•.B again changed, and it was
iinly on Monday last that the :notion of the Noble Lord
tool i,ssurned the shape it now presented. But uu-
Joel:y.4 &y the objee t of the Noble Lord was to place the
permanent charge of the poor on the revenue of the
country.—(ll, ar, hoar.) Now, it the House were to go
into a Comnsittce of liigniry on this subject, it would
tst a doubt as respected he peseta mode by which the
p,-;cr of the country coolil be supported, being the best
.mat could be devis,d for 'Fet purpose, anti as he could
not a,sent to any such doctrine, and as he believed the
country was opals, dto any alteration or the existing
system by which the poor of the country were maim-
si ,cell ho must meet the present proposition wits a di-
roct ro gative. The Noble Lord must recollect that two
y, erg ago a Committee sat to inquire into the very_
q
matters which he now proposed soeuld be investigated
—that they had reported, end that the whole
told been ennvasscd in the fullost and most complete-
-6
egstincr. 'lbis being so, where, he asked, was the
I If
ne-
cessit.y of a similar inquiry being instituted now?
the Noble Lord had coma forward with a specific pro-
position, founded on the facts elicited on the occasion
to which he alluded, the matter would bo different—they
would then know what they had to deal with, and they
could decide respi cting it upon its merits. Ile looked upon
he proposition of the Noble Lord, to place the charge of
supporting the poor upon the general revenue of the
community, as being dangerous in the highest degree
to that into rests of the country, and as tending to preju-
dice both ratepayers and paupers. When the Noble
Lord proposed, as one of his means to carry out his
object, to get rd of all local self-government, he fur-
nished one very strong and conclusive argument against
his own proposition. Nothing had a more salutary
effect upon the national character than this habit of the
people to interest themselves in matters connected with
the concerns of the several districts in which they re-
sided. If the propee,al of the Noble Lord were to sue'
coed, one of two things must arise ; either that the funds
of the country, intended for the support of the poor.
should be administered by local boards, or by the Go-
vernment itself. What would be the consequence of these
funds being administered by local boards ? If the boards
were honest, they would not dispense these funds with a
due regard to their nature. The pressure of producing
the money for the maintenance of the poor not being di-
rectly upon them, they would dispose of it in a manner
regardless of results, and there would be no means ofpre-
venting an undue expenditure of the public money. But
in the event of these local boards being composed of dis-
honest persons, it would be very easy for them to
practice the most monstrous system of jobbing
possible. Then what was the alternative of this ?
Why, that you were to get rid of self-government, and
place the whole of the maintenance of the poor in the
hands of the Government. Now, he thought there were
objections of a very cogent character against this sir`
Look then, at the motion
rangement. . as a whole. In
the fir: t place it effected a general change in the sstem
under which the poor Were maintained; and secondly,it
plucked up by the roots the valuable principle of
selfgo-
vnment. From the earliest period •tn the history of
this country down to the present day the charge of main-
taining the poor had been I d
which the poor existed. paleupon the locality in
that system would Believing that any charge of
have a dangerous effect upon the
country, he would
gative,—(flear.) meet the motion by a direct ne-
Mr. MCKINNO
AN
Noble Lord, deprecated the proposition of the
Ezice
the,_ and satd if it were fully carried it would
Noble Lord, who prided himself us being
de-
sceed
ed from tLe Plantagenets, in the position of being
nothing more than a humble follower of Ledru ltollin and M. l'roudhon. The present system of
!supporting the poor in their respective localities,
induced these who were obliged to find the means for
tk• at support to keep down the rater, and to limit
tiro number of the poor. If this chick did not
exist, the result would be that this country would,
be over, on by FAipers. Populdion wtis only kept down.
by tnordity, or by vice and misery. lie regretted to be
obliged to tee tiitit 11'4 wore not tor the misery that ex-
isted in niuty parts of dd., country, the population would
he so great that it would he impossible to supply the
wants if those who wculti qu:re support as paupers.
Ile adati,o.cl the disci-, parley between the p• or-rates in
many of the metropolitan parishes as compared with
those charged in the pa, id, of S. Georgi';, Ilauover-
square. But this could not be helped, and the only way
to keep down a pauper population was to have a pres.