The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. AUGUST 8.

The SPEAKER took the chair at three o'clock.
Mr. HAMILTON presented a petition from the
Chamber of Commerce of Dublin against the Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished
to say a few words with respect to the statements
which had been made relative to this Bill out of doors. The
Malt Duties in Ireland were much more evaded than in
England, which was not only the cause of inconvenience
and loss to the revenue, but was almost ruining the fair
trader. Many of them had prayed for this Bill which had
been drawn up under their sanction. If the parties inte-
rested said they were taken by surprise, it was not the part
of the Government to force such a Bill on, but then the
responsibility of withdrawing the Bill would rest on those
who applied to have it withdrawn.
After a few words from Mr. Ruthven, Mr. S. Crawford,
and Mr. Walker, in opposition to the Bill, and urging its
postponement to the next session,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
sented to withdraw the Bill, and moved that it be road a
second time that day three months, which was agreed to.
The Slaveowners' Compensation Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
The Common Law Courts Bill was read a third time
and passed.
On bringing up the report on the Pension Duties Bill,
Mr. HARCOURT moved, pursuant to notice, that a
clause be inserted in the Bill exempting from its opera-
tions the pension granted to the Duke of Marlborough.
The Hon. Gentleman then entered into a detailed history
of the pension and rewards bestowed on the Duke of
Marlborough. There was a misstatement, he said, as to
the value of Woodstock, which was not more than 3,0001.
per annum : and he cited a number of instances to prove
that it was the intention of the Legislature that the pen-
sion of 5,0001. per annum bestowed upon the Duke of
Marlborough should be free from any tax or deduction ;
that it had so continued for a long series of years ; and he
contended that it was doing injustice to the memory of that
great man now to make the large deduction contemplated
by this Act. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving
the introduction of a clause for giving full effect to the
intentions of the Legislature by whom the Act of Queen
Anne was passed.
Sir R. INGLIS seconded the motion, because he did
not think it would be doing justice to the memory of the
great Duke of Marlborough to place the annuity enjoyed by
his descendants on a different footing from the grants to the
Duke of Wellington, Lord Nelson, Lord Amherst, and
Lord Chatham.
The clause having been brought up and read,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER en-
tered into a justification of the course which the Govern-
ment had taken with respect to this grant. The question
was on which the Treasury felt the Government had no
right to decide, and therefore it was that they had declined
expressing any opinion on the subject, in order that the
matter might finally be determined by that House, the only
authority to whom it could properly be referred. If they
were now about to grant a new pension, he did not think
they should allow the land tax or any other imposition to
attach to it ; but when there was evidence to show that
this grant was originally made subject to land tax, he did
not think they would be justified in giving to the Act of
Parliament a different construction from that which the
framers of it intended it should bear. If the case were
a doubtful one, he was ready to admit that they should
resolve the doubt in favour of the Duke of Marlborough.
Under these circumstances he would leave the case in the
hands of the House, satisfied that he had vindicated the
Government in declining to acquiesce in this clause.
Mr. F. BARING thought there were strong reasons
for supposing that there was no intention on the part of
the framers of the Act of Anne to relieve the grant to the
Duke of Marlborough from the payment of land tax. It
had been said that the omission of land tax in the exemption
was the result of accident ; but this he did not believe,
because he thought the evidence was all the other way.
From 1780 to the present time this had been the regular
payment.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE should oppose the
clause, but would not object to consider the question in
another shape.
After a few words from Mr. M. ATTWOOD,
Mr. HUME opposed the clause.
The House divided, and there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Majority
Upon the motion that the clause be added to the Bill,
Mr. WARBURTON moved that the Bill be recom-
mitted, for the purpose of reconsidering the clause.
Mr. F. BARING urged his Hon. Friend not to press
his amendment.
After a few words from Alderman THOMPSON,
Mr. HUME complained that the House had been taken
by surprise with respect to the clause. He should, there-
fore, support the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that if the battle of Blenheim were as fresh in the memory
of the House as the battle of Waterloo, there would not
be a word of objection to the proposed increase. He hoped
the amendment would not be persevered in.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
The clause was then proposed to be read a second time.
Mr. WARBURTON should move the adjournment of
the question until to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER denied
that the House was taken by surprise, for notice of this
clause had been on the votes since May last. The Hon.
Gentleman had better take the sense of the House as this
clause on the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. ROBINSON did not see what objection could
he made to duties the payment of which had not been ob-
jected to by the person to whom the pension was originally
granted.
Mr. WAKLEY wished to know if this clause was
agreed, whether it was the intention of Government to pay
the arrears for the time past, as well as to remit the duties
for the future ? He hoped the Hon. Member would per-
sist in his motion for adjourning the debate.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
to remind the Hon. Member for Finsbury that this clause
was not brought in by Government.
Mr. HUME said, as no intimation of the proposition
was given to the House he should say they were taken by
surprise in being called on to grant a new pension of 800/.
a year to the Duke of Marlborough. This was a grant
that should be considered, and they only asked for time—
say even until to-morrow.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was a most unjust charge to
make that they were tak' AI surprise. To say that this
was a new grant of 8001 a year to the Duke of Marlbo-
rough was, to say the least, a strange and not creditable
error.—( Hear, hear.) If it were so, the case would indeed
have been altered. The Noble Duke's ancestor had earned
this pension well, and he for one would not defame his me-
mory by curtailing the pension. As a proof that this was
not really a Government question he would say that the
President of the Board of Trade and the Attorney-Genera
voted against the rest of the Government upon it. As th
House would have another opportunity of discussing the
subject, on the third reading, he hoped they would allow
the second reading.
After a few words from Sir R. Inglis, Mr. H. Hughes
and Mr. A. Trevor, in support of the grant, and from Mr
Williams against it, the House divided ; when there ap
peared, on the question of adjournment—
Ayes

33

Noes
Majority —2B
The House then resolved itself into a Committee o
Supply.

I to 50,000/., a large sum to be misdirected for purposes
very different from what the Noble Lord the Member for
North Lancashire had originally intended it, and announced
in his letter of instruction to the commissioners, as a
united system of instructing all classes, whether Catholics
or Protestants, rich or poor. Now, however, the system
was any thing but a united one. The great body of the
schools had been totally perverted to the purposes of Ro-
man Catholic education, and they were of such a class that
it was impossible Protestants could send their children
there. It appeared by the last report of the Commission-
ers that 24 of these schools were kept by monks and nuns.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") There was no such thing as
national education for Protestants or Presbyterians in Ire-
land. He would not now divide the House on this grant,
but he trusted that in the next session a full inquiry would
be made into the working of this united system, and how
far it was acted on for the benefit of the Protestant popu-
lation. The Hon. Member for Weymouth had stated in
a former debate on the Irish Tithe Bill, that he would not
vote for the appropriation clause, unless a satisfactory in-
quiry were made into the working of the system of educa-
tion, and the complaints of the Protestants proved to be
unfounded. He wished to hear from him whether he had
received the information he required on that very impor-
tant point?
Dr. BOWRING had thought that the acerbity of feel-
ing on these topics was passing away in Ireland, but now
he feared that the needless introduction of such irritating
topics and distinctions would put a stop to all the advan-
tages expected from education, and, what was of more con-
sequence, to the spread of benevolent feelings amongst all
classes and parties in that distracted country.
Colonel SIBTHORP declared, that the Hon. Member
for Kilmarnock's inference from the speech of the. Hon.
Member for Bandon was most unjust.
Mr. CHISHOLM said that the Hon. Member for Kil-
marnock seemed to attach an extraordinary importance to
the sentiment of universal benevolence, which he inculcated
as something that should reconcile Christians to the tole-
ration of every absurdity of doctrine, and erroneous system,
that might be attempted to be inculcated under the name
of a liberal education. He would remind him that the
very word Protestant implied an uncompromising' dissent
from the errors of Popery.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WOULFE protested against the computation of
the Hon. and Learned .Memberfor Bandon. He thought
that this assertion of the inefficacy of the system of united
education, and the absence of the children of Protestants,
came with a peculiar bad grace from those (not the Hon.
and Learned Member for Bandon, but his friends) who
had been violently opposed to giving it a fair trial, and
doing their utmost to prevent them attending the national
schools.—( Hear.)
Colonel PERCEVAL said that it was no wonder the
Protestants did not send their children to schools in Ca-
tholic chapels.—(Oh, oh !) He had seen the fact him-
self.—(Name, ,name.) He had seen it in his own town of
Ballymote.—( Hear, hear.) From his representation of
the impropriety, this arrangement was subsequently altered.
He could mention another cause that would certainly ope-
rate in causing Protestants to keep their children away
from those schools. Although it was a formal resolution,
enacted by the Commissioners, that no books of special
doctrine should be permitted in those schools, the first
book he set his hand on in that to which he had re-
ferred was the Roman Catholic Catechism.—(Cheers.)
As to tie number of Protestants in Ireland given by the
Commissioners in their Report, he could assure the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman that, as far• as his experience
in his own parish extended, it was considerably under the
truth. In the census taken in the parish in which he re-
sided, in the county Sligo, the returns of Protestants and
Catholics had been presented to the Commissioners by the
High Constable, who declared on oath, as drawn up by the
priest of the parish, and this return contained the statement
that there was only one Protestant in the parish, and that
was Colonel Perceval.—(Loud laughter.) Now he hap-
pened to have a wife and nine children, none of whom were
Catholics—(Hear)—besides more than thirty persons in
various capacities, engaged about his house and grounds,
too many perhaps, hut all of whom were Protestants.—
(Cheers.) In addition to this, he could state that his pa-
rish church was very numerously attended, and that last
Easter Sunday more than 180 communicants were present.
—(Cheers.) And yet the return made by the priest of the
parish, and sworn to by the High Constable, gave only one
Protestant—Col. Perceval.—(Laughter.) As to the peace
and content which now prevailed in the national schools,
the explanation was that the inmates were now universally
Catholics.—( Hear.)
Mr. SHAW did not think that the present attempt
at an united system of education could ever succeed.
Mr. JACKSON complained of the inaccuracy of the
returns of the Commissioners, which, in some instances,
were of a very remarkable character. For instance, in the
parish of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny the
Protestant inhabitants were returned as 49, a very suspi-
cious number, whilst, in reality, they were 56 at the time of
making the return, and had since increased to 63. There
happened also in another quarter to be no less than 300
Protestants omitted altogether from the returns by the fol-
lowing means :—These 300 persons went from Dublin to
Bray for the moral enjoyments of a watering place in the
summer. The returns were made out for Dublin in July,
and these persons being at Bray were not entered. The
returns for Bray, were not made out till October, and by
that time the individuals in question had returned to
Dublin ; so they were not noticed at all, either in the
Dublin returns or those from Bray.
Lord MORPETH believed he had already, on a former
occasion. very satisfactorily shown that the difference of
seven Protestants claimed for the parish referred to by the
Hon. and Learned Segeant did not in fact exist, and that
those persons did not really belong to the parish in ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the 300 Protestants
who had been overlooked between Dublin and Bray, he
wished the Hon. and Learned Sergeant joy of them, but
he could not, surely, expect that these 300 persons should
hive been entered in the returns from a place in which they
actually were not residing.—(Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then successively granted :
The sum of 3,800/. was granted for the Fever Hospital
in Dublin.
The sum of 500/. was granted to defray the expenses of
the Hospital of Incurables in Dublin.
On the grant of 8,928/. being proposed for the expense
of Roman Catholic Colleges in Ireland,
Colonel PERCEVAL said that he hoped this grant
would not be opposed, as the whole subject connected with
the system of education at those colleges was to be brought
under the consideration of Parliament in the next session.
Mr. A. TREVOR said that he should divide the Com-
mittee against this grant if he stood alone.
Mr. SHAW hoped that his Hon. Friend would not
divide the House against the grant.
Colonel SIBTHORP and Mr. HAMILTON opposed the
grant.
Captain BOLDERO supported the grant.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—

For the grant
Against it
Majority
The resolution was then agreed to.
The sum of 3001. was granted to the Royal Irish Aca-
demy.
The sum of 7001. was voted for the use of charitable
trusts in Ireland.
The sum of 2,2751. was voted for the use of charitable
institutions at Belfast.
12,8001. was granted to defray the expense of public
works in Ireland.
22,4721. was granted to defray the expense of the Chief
Secretary's office in Ireland.
The sum of 12,4601. was granted to pay the salaries of
officers connected with the Lord Lieutenant's establishment
in Ireland.
6,897/. was granted to the Tellers of the Exchequer in
Ireland.
5,5001. was granted to defray the expense of proclama-
tions in Ireland.
25,5791. was granted for the use of Dissenting estab-
lishments in Ireland.
65,0001. was granted to defray the expense of crimina
prosecutions in Ireland.
17,5001. was voted for the expense of the police estab-
lishment of Dublin.
The sum of 3,140/. was proposed to be voted for the
cost of public works in Ireland.
Mr. F. FRENCH opposed that part of the grant which
referred to the improvement of the river Shannon, as a
sum totally inadequate to the purpose, and a mere delu-
sion on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
some surprise at the course taken by the Hon. Member.
The sum required would not exceed 200/., and he could
assure the House that until it was ascertained what the
owners of property on the Shannon would contribute, he
would not propose the granting of any further snm.
After some further conversation the amendment was ne•
gatived without a division, and the resolution agreed to.
7,000/. was granted to defray the expense of the town
land buildings.
5271. was granted to defray the expenses of Dunmore
harbour.
6,0001. was, after a short conversation, granted for de-
fraying the expenses of the clerks of the peace.
The Chairman then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again.
The report of the Committee on the Militia Estimates
was brought up, and the resolutions read and agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at Two o'clock.

ROUSE OF LORDS, AUGUST 8.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his scat at tel -
minutes to five.
The Turnpike Act Continuation Bill was read a third

•
time and passed.
Earl STRAFFORD presented a petition from Ardee,
in
Louth, praying for a repeal of the Taxes on Knowledge.
INDIA.
Lord HATHERTON presented a v etition from Cal-
cutta, in the East Indies, agreed to at the first public
meeting ever held in that place. The vetitioners com-
plained that by the Act lately passed for the re-
gulation of the affairs of the East India Company, the
interests of the inhabitants of India which it was
intended to promote had been altogethe r overlooked.
They also complained of the operation of the. 43d section
of that Act—that no natives had hitherto been appointed
to civil situations ; that no provision had been made for the
moral education of the people of that country ; and that
discriminating duties upon tobacco, spirits, and sugar, were

still permitted to continue.
GRAND JURIES (IRELAND)..
On the motion of Viscount DUNCA NNON the Grand
Juries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed.
Mr. BERNAL and others from the Commons brought up
a Message, stating that an amendment, which appeared on
the third reading of the Secular Jurisdiction (.York and
Ely) Bill, did not form part of the Bill sent up from the
other House. The same Messengers also brot;,9,ilt up the
Church Temporalities (Ireland) Bill, and the Edinburgh,
Leith, and Newhaven Railway Bill.
Lord MELBOURNE moved that the message from
the Commons relative to the Secular Jurisdiction York anti
Ely Bill be now taken into consideration.—Agreed to.
COMMON FIELDS ENCLOSURE.
On the motion of Lord ELLENBOROUG-H, the
Common Fields Enclosure Bill was read a second time, and

ordered to be committed to-morrow.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition front Corn-
wall against the Stannaries' Courts Bill.
The Valuation (Ireland) Bill went through a Com-
mittee.
CONFERENCE WITH THE COMMONS.
On the motion of Lord MELBOURNE, the following
Peers were named to confer with the House .'f Commons
on the Secular Jurisdiction York and Ely Bill--the Lord-
President, the Lord Privy Seal, Earl of Albemarle,
Lord Torrington, the Bishop of Bristol, Lord IlLitherton,

and Lord Strafford.
The Managers of the Conferenco on the part of their
Lordships having returned to the House after an absence of
a few minutes,
The LORD PRESIDENT reported that they had
met the Commons in Conference, and had made the amend,-
ments required in the Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition
from the Licensed Victuallers of Macclesfield, against the
Sale of Beer Bill.
On the motion of Viscount DUNCANNON, the Turn-
pike Acts (Ireland) Bill was read a second time.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH brought in a Bill for
enabling the patrons of Livings to make presentations to
Ecclesiastical benefices, which was read a first time.
PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS.

On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND some
verbal amendments were made in the Parochial Assessments
Bill, which was then read a third time and passed.
STAMP DUTIES BILL.

Lord Viscount MELBOURNE, in moving that the
House resolve itself into Committee on the Bill, said---i
beg to call your Lordships' attention very shortly to the'
principles and the objects, as well as the causes and rea-
sons, from which a necessity for such a measure as that to
which I refer has arisen, and to the great importance that
exists of not throwing any hindrance or impediment in the
way of its passing into a law. The object of this Bill is
to reduce the duty on Newspapers. The duty on News'
papers is 4d., with a discount of 20 per cent., which re-
duces the duty in fact one-fifth. That duty it is intended to
reduce to ld. On the present amount of the Stamp-duty,
which yielded a revenue of 450,0001., the loss, if the cal-
culation was made on the present sale of stamps, would
be 80,0001., but as it is naturally calculated that there will
be a very considerable increase in the number of stamps
that will very considerably reduce the loss, whiciA will be
still further reduced by the additional duty on paper used
for printing Newspapers. These are the circumstances
attending the change with regard to the revenue of the
country ; but I am sure your Lordships will feel that
there are other circumstances connected with it. Wlneo
we consider the nature of the press of this country:'
the power which it possesses, and the influence and
effect which it has on the morals, temper, feelings, and
character of the people—l am satisfied, I say, that whet'
your Lordships reflect on the subject, you will see that
there are many other considerations involved in it far
more important than its pecuniary and financial relations,-
though, undoubtedly, these are not to be laid out or
view. The object of this measure is, in the first place,.
to take off the heavy burthen on the public press 01
this country, and to facilitate the general dissemination
of knowledge, to facilitate the speedy transmission °f
accurate intelligence, and, in short, to afford every sort
of advantage to that liberty of the press against which I
have not known any one, for many years past, venture
raise his voice either in this or in the other House °
Parliament. But your Lordships need not be told that
one of the evils of the present system is the existence
of a contraband trade in Newspapers, and that pubhca"
Lions of this nature have been carried on for 1113111
years past, to which the attention of your Lordships has
already been called. Our attention has been directed
to this subject particularly during the last session of Far.
liament, by a Noble and Learned Lord, whose abseil?
during the present session is greatly to be lamented, 311,0
who strongly urged that the present reduction, if not t""
total abolition, of the duty should take place, in order to
improve the character of that press, and in order to take
away from those engaged in that contraband trade, and whie
frequently adopted a tone and language which were high`)rt
to be lamented, those advantages and profits which they ° •
present reap, and to give to those who may be disposed WI.
combat such opinions a fair opportunity of doing so, as fic
as it could be afforded, by allowing them to enter into fal„
competition in that market in which publications of a dir,
ferent style and nature now enjoy a protection. Our a'
tention has also been called, during the last three years, b)ci.
some other Members of your Lordships' House, who rce
to us from publications of the unstamped press certain Pesci
sages of a very violent and inflammatory character, an,
charged the Government with great remissness and dere;
liction of duty in not having taken all the measures in °li
power for putting it down. Ido think that such a 621'g
against the Government is, in no respect, well founded
The Government has gone, at least, to the extent of Its
powers in this matter, but the state of the law does Per
enable the public prosecutor to cope with the venders Of
these unstamped publications. There are three Acts
Parliament passed against these unstamped publications ;
by one the printers or publishers are liable under an
chequer process ; there is another Act directed against t,";
sellers of those publications, and a third against those vf's.,
are found hawking them for sale, imposing certain penaltle r
and, in default of payment, prescribing certain periods ea
confinement. But such regulations of the law are rends
altogether inoperative and inefficient for their purpose w'd
the impossibility of producing evidence on which to fours,
information.—(Hear.) Not having the power of et°
tering on the premises, it is perfectly impossible
the
prove' the printing and publishing, particularly
printing, and it is almost impossible to detect the real eau'in
of the printer. There are only two unstamped pape,,r,s se
which the real name of the printers are annexed. .I"eni
are names which I have no doubt were I to mention th„ei,
would be perfectly familiar to your Lordships. The in °lll
duals to whom they belong have been prosecuted over, son.
over again—they have undergone sentences of imPr.'s.ej
ment of no inconsiderable duration—they have been osil for
with infliction of penalties which have either been pain. to
them by subscription, or which it has,been found iraPstch
to levy ; and such, my Lords, is either the profit • %%jell
they derive in that way, or the determination with Wilava
they pursue their career, that I believe these persons tioa
been in no respect deterred from proceeding in the 09ritu
by any prosecutions under which they have suffered. ;no
respect to the sellers it is still more difficult to carry or
effect the law which has been laid down for their 131 Int of
ment. An obscure shop is opened in an obscure pa is
the town, in which a woman or child is placed, an ° ,np ;
almost impossible to discover the real owner of the urns
and if the name should be ultimately ascertained, it ~„;tli.
out, in all probability, to be that Of a person who ca°
out difficulty change his residence—who is here to-de artgone to-morrow, or who opens a shop in another obscure Poo
g
of the town. Thus the law which provides that the ulled
should be personally served is defeated ; and the only rnehop
proving the publication obviated by the person in the 'oar
refusing (as is the case at present) to sell to any but regthird
and acknowledged customers. With respect to the food
power which the law confers, that of serving persons, been
selling those publications in the streets, that power he'nost
exercised in the most vigorous though not in the the
effectual manner. Officers have been employed for per:
purpose ; they have taken up I know not how maribYencleu
sons during the last five months ; they have aPPre nu'
300 persons, most of them boys, for vending these
noeebeent u
stamped publications, though these persons have iionse °f
committed. A return has been moved for in the ri onot
Commons, which did not give a very satisfactory suretno
of the number confined under these laws. The first of per'
referred to the year 1831, and gave, as the number o, the
sons committed, 295 ; and the last return shoe ioud at
number committed from March, 1834, to the 13r..nturti
which it was made, to be 213 persons. But the las.tr,,
ord.
entirely omitted the years 1832 and 1833, which thei
ships were aware were two years the most rife and 11134 pro'
tive in this species f publication. Therefore it is v