The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, AUGUST 13, 1836.

son, Lord Fitzgerald, and another Noble Peer whose name we
did not catch.
On the return of the managers,
The Earl of WESTMEATH moved that the Commons'
reasons for disagreeing to their Lordships' amendments be
taken into consideration.

The reasons having been read,
Lord PL UNKET trusted that the Noble Lord (West-
meath) would not persevere in his amendment. It would be
most prejudicial to the interests of the tenants, and would be
most inconvenient in practice.
After a few words from Lord WYNFORD, . .

Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI would suggest to his
Noble and Learned Friend near him not to insist upon the
amendment. With every wish to co-operate with the Noble
Lords with whom he had always acted, he thought, on this
occasion, there were circumstances to justify their Lordships
in departing from the principles which had always guided them
in adhering to their amendments.
The Marquis of WE STME ATH had always considered
the interests of the landlords identical with those of the
the tenants.—(Hear.) The Civil Bill Court was in itself
an anomaly, and an increase had been made in its
jurisdiction from time to time by Parliament, and was now one
of the most important in Ireland. He denied that the argu-
ments of the Noble and Learned Lord ( Plunket) were of any
force as regarded the parole agreements between landlords
and tenants.

The question was then put, and negatived without a di-
vision.

PRISONS.

The Duke of RICHMOND rose for the purpose of asking
his Noble Friend the Lord President of the Council several
questions with respect to this important subject. In the last
session of Parliament a Select Committee of the House was
appointed, for the purpose of inquiring into the subject of
prison discipline, and it represented that the gaols of the me-
tropolis were in a most disgraceful condition. He should call
the attention of the House to the Report of the Select Com-
mittee. That Report stated that the number of juvenile of-
fenders had greatly increased, and this fact he would press
upon the most serious attention of the Government. Many
of these children, at the age of ten years, were sent to prison
for stealing an apple, or some such trifling offence, and this
generally after they had been deserted and abandoned by their
parents. Now it was impossible to reform these children if
they were sent to prison ; and he was rejoiced to know that se-
veral associations had been formed in various parts of the
country, but at Warwick in particular, for the purpose of send-
ing these offenders to school, and not to prison. The conse-
quences which had resulted from these associations were of
the most satisfactory nature, and were admitted on all hands.
The experiment of sending juvenile offenders to the Colonies
had also been most successful. The questions which he had
to ask were, whether his Majesty's Government had taken into
its consideration the propriety of attending to the Report of
the Select Committee recommending that juvenile offenders
should be kept separate from other offenders—whether the
Government had tried the experiment of sending juvenile
offenders to schools—and whether any steps had been taken to
get rid of the hulk for the reception of boys at Chatham ?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was fully authorised to
state that his Noble Friend at the head of the Home Depart-
ment had directed his attention to every one of the subjects
referred to by the Noble Duke, and was prepared to give his
utmost attention to the subject during the approaching recess,
with a view to carry into effect the Report of the Committee,
and of the Inspectors of Prisons, with respect to the establish-
ment of prisons for tho reception of juvenile offenders. He
was informed that more offences were committed by juvenile
offenders in England than in any other country of Europe, for
in the course of one single year no less than two or three
thousand boys and girls, under the age of sixteen years, were
committed to prison, and of those he believed there was a con-
siderable proportion, not less than eight hundred, under the
age of twelve years. It was a great satisfaction for him (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) to state, that he knew that many of
the most apparently abandoned children had been so effectually
reformed, after a detention of a year at school, they had been
sent out to the colonies useful and valuable subjects, and that
the best accounts had been received with respect to their con-
duct. He had no objection to try the experiment on a larger
scale, and to provide the necessary means by law. He was
also disposed to give a larger discretion to magistrates in the
application of the sentence of the law to juvenile offenders.
The Earl of RIPON confirmed all that had fallen from the
Noble Duke.

Here the conversation dropped.
POST-OFFICE BILL.

Viscount DUNCANNON moved the second reading of
this Bill, and in doing so stated that he should make a few
observations respecting the main object of the Bill, namely,
the substitution of three Commissioners for the Postmaster-
General. This subject had been.under the consideration of
Parliament for nearly half a century, for five or six Commis-
sions had sat since 1777. The Noble Viscount, after briefly
alluding to the proceedings under those Commissions, stated
that all the Commissions had come to the conclusion that the
establishment of the Post-office was had, but they did not all
agree as to the mode in which it should be remedied. Look-
ing, therefore, at the manner in which the Admiralty, the
Woods and Forests, the Customs were managed, the Govern-
ment thought that it would be better to entrust the manage-
ment of the Post-office to three Commissioners, instead of
one individual. He, therefore, trusted their Lordships would
agree to the second reading of the Bill.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, that after the statement
he had made to their Lordships on a former occasion, they
could not be surprised that he should now rise to move as an
amendment, that this Bill be read a second time this day six
months. He had been curious to learn from the Noble Vis-
count on what grounds he could support this Bill. It had
been said that but little had been done to alter the old
system; but surely it had been forgotten that in the year 1830
the whole Post-office Department was entirely reorganized
and remodelled under the very useful recommendations of
Lord Wallace's Committee in 1817. These recommenda-
tions had been carried into effect and execution so far as
the Lords of the Treasury would consent to do so. If the
Noble Viscount wished to make the Post-office Department
popular, it was only necessary to give the Postmaster.
General a greater latitude of revenue, for at the present time
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not permit him to
spend more than a certain sum, except he expected to obtain
an adequate advantage. He (the Duke of Richmond) denied,
as had been stated, that Lord Wallis's committee had inquired
into everyPdepartment of the Post-office ; neither did he believe,
though he had waded through the reports, that the supposed
frauds at Holyhead had been carried into execution. But even if
that had formerly been the case, the evil had been remedied, in-
asmuch as the packet department at Holyhead had been placed
under the controul of the Board of Admiralty, and he had the
authority of his Noble Friend the present Postmaster-General
(who by indisposition was unfortunately prevented from being
in his place) • for stating thus publicly that the frauds sup-
posed to exist at Holyhead to a very great degree had been
disproved. He (the Duke of Richmond) mentioned this in
corroboration of his former statement. He contended that
before the Noble Viscount asked the House to consent to read
the Bill a second time, he ought to have laid on the table the
whole of the evidence which had been received up to within
the last two or three weeks. At all events the Noble Viscount
had not shewn that three men would be better than one for the
discharge of these duties. Let him prove that the present
Postmaster-General had not discharged his duty before the
charge was made. He (the Duke of Richmond) thought
that his Noble Friend now at the head of the Post-office de-
partment had fully and ably discharged the duties of his
office, and that if the present commission of inquiry was got
rid of, and that a little more revenue was allowed him, the
department would be perfectly satisfactory to the public. He
hesitated not to affirm that the great portion of the public were
now fully satisfied, though he was aware that some indivi-
duals existed who for the sake of acquiring notoriety were loud
in their complaints—one of them in a recent letter from Liver-
pool, which had gone forth to the public, describing himself
as a " great exposer of abuses." That individual had for
some time chosen to attack the Post-office department, and
especially an individual now lost to the public service—an in-
dividual who had raised himself to an important station, by his
zeal and assiduity in this branch of the service of his country
—by a private character unimpeached and unimpeachable, and
with the esteem of every individual in the establishment—he
meant Sir Francis Freeling—( Hear, hear)—who the subject
of attack while living, was not allowed to remain unattacked
in his grave, by the individual to whom he (the Duke of Rich-
mond) would not new in his absence further allude, than to
say he had stated his opinion of him on a former occasion.—
(Hear, hear.) To return, however, to the Bill, he begged
to ask, was not a Postmaster-General with two secretaries as
good as system as that proposed by the plan ? The Postmas-
ter-General had an undivided responsibility, while the altera-
tion suggested would give a divided responsibility among the
Commissioners. He contended that the advantage of an un-
divided responaibity was great, and that advantage had been
admitted by three of his Noble Friends now present, when he
(the Duke of Richmond) was associated with them as a col-
league, in the instance of the measure for the regulation of
the Board of Control. That Board was reduced to one Com-
missioner and two Secretaries, and had been found to work
better than under its old constitution.—(Hear, hear.) On the
whole, taking also into consideration the late perion of the
session which had arrived—considering also that all the evi-
dence had been laid on the table, he was of opinion that fur-
ther time ought to be allowed to the House and the Govern-
ment to attend to the matter, and with that view he should
conclude by moving—that this Bill be read a second time this
day six months.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said, that though he dif-
fered on many points of detail in this Bill, he was prepared to
vote for its second reading.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that the Noble Duke who
had opposed the second reading of this measure had adverted
to many topics connected with the Bill. Of the importance
of the subject there could be but one opinion, involving as it
did the transmission of all communications throughout the
country, and bringing into the Exchequer a very considerable
portion of the public revenue. Now it was for their Lord-
ships every material and important consideration—not merely,
as had been stated by the Noble Duke, whether any public
dissatisfaction existed with respect to the present system of
managing that branch of the public service, but whether, even
improvement
might that dissatisfaction did not exist, considerable
might not be made. It was very possible that upon such a
subject there might be no general complaints against the pre-
sent system, and that yet it might be capable of very great
amelioration ; and there was goad reason to suppose that such
was the case, because it, was impossible for their Lordships, if
they looked at the reports made by the Commissions which
had sat on the subject—if they looked at the reports of all
those to whom the inquiry had been submitted—it was impos-
sible for their Lordships to have a greater body of evidence,
arising from the unanimity of the opinions expressed in favour
of some such proposition as the present. There was no body
of persons to whom the investigation of the subject had ever

been committed who had ever approved of the present system,
or had not recorded an opinion in favour of some arrangement of
the nature proposed by this Bill. Recurring to the very earliest
period at which the question had come under Parliamentary con-
sideration, their Lordships would find that such had been the case.
The first commission had been appointed in 1785, to inquire
into several offices connected with the Government ; and their
report, delivered on the 7th of June, 1788, contained recom-
mendations of a character corresponding with the proposed al-
teration. The next was the select committee upon finances
—a committee always considered as a considerable authority ;
and the report with regard to the Post Office department, pre-
sented by Mr. Abbott, subsequently Lord Colchester, con-
tained a passage to the following effect :—" That it might be
worthy of consideration whether the appointment of a board of
commissioners to discharge the duties of the Postmaster-Ge-
neral would not be calculated better to secure attention to the
rapidly increasing and complicated business of that depart-
ment." The next report, that of the commission of fees
hnd gratuities in Ireland, had recommended "that the office
of Postmaster-General should be vested in three commis-
sioners, two of wham were to constitute a board ; and
the signature of two to he necessary to the validity
of any ordinance; that attendance should be required
every day, in order that they might be able, by at.
tending the details of the business of the office, and,
consequently, becoming more intimately acquainted with the
subject, to act upon their own views instead of being com-
pelled, for want of information, to submit to the judgment
and guidance of others." His Noble Friend (the Duke of
Richmond) who had moved the postponement of the Bill on
the present occasion, had also moved for an extract from the
report of the Finance Committee, which he (the Duke of
Richmond) supposed to be favourable to his view of the
question. This was (the extract [which the Noble Viscount
then read ; it was to the following effect :—" With regard to
the office of Postmaster-General it does not appear to the
committee that that department comes exactly under the par-
ticular description of subjects upon which they have to report,
and they are not prepared at present to suggest any alteration
in the system upon which it is at present conducted ; but if
they are strongly of opinion that it would be inexpedient to
place the management of that office under the direction of a
Board, with a constitution similar to that of other Revenue
Boards, on the other hand they are by no means prepared to
express an opinion that in so large and complicated a concern,
in which so many interests are involved, the present arrange-
ment could stand without disadvantage if the duties were
permanently confined to one indivdual."l So that the Noble
Duke would see that if the Committee were not prepared at
' once to accede to the appointment of a Board of Commis-
sioners, at the same time they were not wholly favourable to
the maintenance of the present system. He now came to the
Report of the revenue Commissioners, who had pursued the
subject with the most diligent attention, and had entered into
' the most minute details. The substance of the measure which
they recommended was the substitution of one general Board for
the management of the Post-office Department, instead of the
offices of Postmaster-General and Secretary. It was pro-
posed that the seat of the Board should be in London,
and that there should be secretaries and subordinate officers ;
that there should always be one member of the Board in Ire-
land, and another in Scotland ; and that at both those places
there should also be an establishment of secretaries and other
local officers. With respect to Ireland, he could assure the
House that his Noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant held an
opinion distinctly in favour of some such proposition as the
present. A Commission had also been proposed by the Ad-
ministration of the Noble Duke; and though they knew not
the opinions of all the members of that Committee, they had,
at any rate, the opinion of a Noble Lord in their favour,
whose great acuteness, whose application to business, whose
talents for business, rendered his opinion of the greatest weight,
whose authority was of the highest importance on the details of
the measure—a Noble Lord, whose general principles and
feelings undoubtedly were opposed to those of the present Go-
' vernment, but who still always entered the high and honour-
able desire of correcting anything which might seem to him
to require correction, and of supporting everything which
was expedient and advisable for the interests of the public.
They had the opinion also of the Noble Lord the Member for
Cumberland. In answer to a question put to him by the
Commission, Lord Lowther had said, " That lie had not been
connected long enough with the department to have considered
the subject—( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Richmond and
other Noble Lords)—with his colleagues." Let their Lord-
ships mark that, " with his colleagues." There could be no
doubt that he had considered the subject himself, for lie pro-
ceeded—" but the observations which he had made led hint to
the conclusion that'the present system was not adapted to the
active circumstances of the times; and he should feel inclined
to propose to Parliament to re-model the Post-office Depart-
ment altogether. It had just remained what it was ever since
the improvements in 1797 and 1798. There had scarcely
been a single alteration, except those which were actually
forced by the public.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He should be
disposed to look at the Post Office of this country as the Post
Office of the world, if facilities were offered ; and it was
his opinion that it would be impossible for one man to
afford the requisite attention to the matter. He thought it
better that there should be a Board of Commissioners, with a
head and two assistants ; and he would recommend that the
patronage of the board should be left with the Chief Commis-
sioner; because it always operated to the prejudice of boards
when the junior Commissioners had any share in the patron-
age." Now, he begged their Lordships to mark the follow-
ing observation ; it appeared to him important, pertinent, and
acute :—" But he (Lord Lowther) thought that if one of
the members of the Commission were in Parliament, he would
perhaps hear more there than he could see if he visited the
country."—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had been asked
—" Do you think it advisable that one of the Comniissioners
should sit in the House of Commons ?—Yes. The head Com-
missioner ?—Any one of them." The Noble Viscount then
proceeded to read the evidence of the Noble Lord (Lowther)
in which be expressed his opinion that some particular provi-
sion would be required for the purpose above mentioned, be-
cause a revenue Commissioner was not entitled to sit in Par-
liament. Now he (Lord Melbourne) thought that was laid
down rather boldly ; for he apprehended there was nothing in
the present state of the law to prevent a Commissioner of re-
venue or excise from being a Peer.—(Laughter.) Well, then,
he did contend that there was a body of evidence which
was sufficient to induce their Lordships to enter upon
the consideration of the Bill. With respect to the Bill itself,
and the principle of it, it was to establish a board instead of
the single Postmaster-General and the two secretaries who at
present presided over that department. In making a conside-
rable alteration in a system so long established, they were of
course liable to the difficulty of seeming, by the adoption of
that course, to condemn the persons who had held the offices,
as well as the officers themselves, which it was proposed to
abolish ; but he could assure the House, in the present instance,
nothing could be further from his intention.—(Hear, hear.)
Ho would, however, state what was really the fact, though he
had not the slightest intention of saying anything offensive to
any person who had ever occupied those offices. His Noble
Friend had himself clearly shown that persons contracted, by
holding office, very great attachment to that office—(Loud
laughter, and " Hear, hear")—and also to the persons con-
nected with that office—( Hear, hear)--and he would say that
becoming familiarized with the old system, such persons were
led to believe that the business could be conducted in no other
manner; and if his Noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond)
had not been somewhat blinded by former associations and
attachments of the nature to which he had alluded—
(Laughter)—he did not think that he would have viewed this
measure in the light he had done. As to the question be-
tween boards and single officers, that was not an old topic in
this country. Boards were certainly rather of a democratical
origin, and had been principally introduced by Oliver Crom-
well, who, though he wished for the name of King, either
found it inconvenient or not corresponding with the character
of his Government to appoint Lord Chancellors, and Lord
High Admirals, and Lord High Treasurers ; and who, there-
fore, generally created boards for the discharge of the duties
of those high offices. Subsequently those Boards had been
complained of by Lord Clarendon, as of a democratical and
jacobinical character. But such opinions, he believed, had
been long abandoned ; for there was not now one of those
high offices which was not discharged by a board, with the
exception of the Lord Chancellor on the woolsack. As to
the charge with respect to the Board of Control, he was not
sufficiently acquainted with that office to know whether it had
been any improvement or not ; but with regard to an office
which exercised such general controul, which was called upon
to decide upon such great measures, in which efficiency and
unity of decision were so requisite, he conceived the appoint-
ment of a chief and two secretaries might be more convenient
than of a board consisting of three commissioners, with secre-
taries. Not so, however, with respect to an office that, like
the one in question, had to deal so much with matters of
detail ; and whenever minute subjects were brought under
consideration, in that case the call for attention would render
the latter constitution of the Board more eligible than the
former. His Noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond) had
certainly been the most active Postmaster- General that they
had had for many years, if not the most active they ever had ;
and his exertion had at least succeeded in calling public atten-
tion to that office, which previously had been more one of show
and authority than of any real superintendence or acquaintance
with the business. Such, then, being the case, if the present
system was, as had been stated by Lord Lowther, and, as he
believed, truly stated, not a system suited to the increase of
business in that department, he thought that it would be the
best way to make at once a decided change, such as was pro-
posed by the present Bill. It was, then, his opinion, founded
upon the authorities which he had adduced, founded upon the
recommendations of every one who had considered the ques-
tion, and founded upon the nature of the office itself and the
state of public feeling with respect to it—it was his opinion
that some alteration of the nature proposed by this Bill ought
to be adopted ; and for these reasons he should feel it his duty
to vote for the second reading of the Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose and said—My Lords,
the prejudice and desire which I should have upon the subject
would be to follow the course recommended by his Majesty's
Government. There can be no doubt whatever that this is a
most important department of the Government—a department
upon which the Government itself must in a great degree
rely—a department, therefore, in the good management of
which the Government is most highly interested ; and, so far
as this House has to deal with the subject, it should be in-
clined certainly to follow the advice which his Majesty's Go-
vernment may think proper to give. But when his Majesty's
Government comes down to this House with a'measure of this
kind, proposing a change of this description—in certainly one
of the most important departments of public service—they
ought, my Lords, to take care to bring before the House
sufficient information to enable your Lordships to form a
right judgment on the question.—( Hear, hear.) Now let us
see how we stand with respect to this subject. The Noble
Viscount has read to your Lordships a variety of extracts from
the reports of commissioners, and from evidence differing from ;
the Noble Duke's opinion upon this question. But the Noble 1

,_-.-~

Duke who has made the motion for the postponement of the
measure, has said that a variety of commissions had sat upon
the subject, and particularly of late, from not one of whom
has one single line been laid before your Lordships.—(Hear,
hear, hear, and cheers.) My Lords, this Bill was brought
up to this House upon the Bth of August, it was ordered to be
printed, and upon the 12th your Lordships arc called upon to
take it into consideration on the motion for the second read-
ing, and to decide at once, and make yourselves a party to the
responsibility of the change in this office.—(Hear, hear.) My
Lords, I know enough of this office to be quite certain that up
to this period it has been administered in a way highly bene-
ficial to his Majesty's service. I can assert positively, ray
Lords, that the Post-office has hitherto been far better admi-
nistered in this country than in Europe or any other part of
the world—(Hear, hear)—and, before then, I consent to any
change in the administration of this office I should like to see
the grounds upon which this recommendation has been made.
I know, my Lords, from the situation which I have had the
honour to fill in his Majesty's service, that this is a most im-
portant office to his Majesty's Government; and before I can
consent to this change—that is to say, before I can consent to
lose the Postmaster-General, and the subordinate officers, and
to receive in the place of those officers a board of commis-
sioners, each of whom shall be co-ordinate and equal with
the other in his station in the office—l should like to see
the grounds of which the recommendation is made, and to
know in what manner the duties of the office are to
be carried on so as to give to his Majesty's Govern-
ment all that influence and advantage which they at pre-
sent derive from this office.—(Cries of " Hersr, hear.")
That, my Lords, is all which is material. I don't care
whether the head of the Post Office is to sit in the other
House of Parliament or not, but I must see the grounds upon
which it is recommended to place the administration in the
hands of a board. The Noble Viscount has referred to the
opinion of a Noble Friend of mine in another place ; and, my
Lords, I can easily understand that my Noble Friend might
have seen that great improvements might be introduced in
this department, notwithstanding the state in which I do as-
sert the Post Office of this country to be at this moment--a
state very far superior to any other country in Europe. There
may, perhaps, certainly be room for further improvement ; but,
my Lords, I can see no reason why these improvements should
be introduced in the present state of things. If there bad
been more time for a due deliberation of this measure, I should
probably have offered no objection to it in the present stage ;
but as such is not the case, I certainly think it better that the
Bill should be postponed to some future period, in order that
we may have the report of the Commissioners before us, and
may be able to come to a fair consideration of the question. •
Lord ELLENBOROUGH could only be persuaded to
consent to the second reading upon an understanding that a
clause should be introduced in the Committee to provide that
in all cases wherein, upon the consideration of any question, a
difference of opinion might arise amongst the Commissioners,
power should be given to the person first named in the Com-
mission to overrule the other two-_.(A laugh from the Mi-
nisterial side)—upon stating to them his reason for so over-
ruling their opinions.
Lord L)UNCANNON replied.
Lord COLCHESTER begged merely to remind the No-
ble Lord that time Committee to which he had referred (the
Finance Committee) had not recommended the appointment
of a Board, but only represented the matter as worthy of con-
sideration. He should certainly support the amendment of
the Noble Duke.

Their Lordships then divided--
Contents
Non-contents ..
Majority against the Bill
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE moved that the House
resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON approved of the general
principle of the Bill, though he entertained objections to cer-
tain clauses, which before they went into committee he
thought it proper shortly to enumerate. He particularly ob-
jected to the clause which reduced the rate of interest on
mortgages effected by the purchase of perpetuities from five
per cent. to three and a half per cent. It was imagined by
his Majesty's Government, and by those who supported this
measure in the other House, that by adopting that clause they
would ensure an earlier payment of the money than by the
Church Temporalities Act. In that supposition he was confi-
dent they were mistaken—( Hear, hear)—and he entertained no
doubt that instead of producing- an earlier payment the clause
would only have the effect of occasioning delay. He thought
that in committee he would be able to satisfy their Lordships
of the truth of that statement, and, further, that such was the
opinion of the Church Commissioners in Ireland ; and if that
was the opinion of the Church Commissioners in Ireland, who
could have no possible interest in delay, and who were, on
the contrary, interested in realising that purchase-money as
soon as possible, he thought their Lordships would readily
agree to expunge that clause from the Bill. There was ano-
ther clause to which lie objected, which directed the Church
Commissioners to invest all monies arising on the Perpetuity
Fund account in Exchequer bills; but by which it was enacted
that the Commissioners should not proceed to the purchase or
sale and disposal of these Exchequer bills, except under the
direction of the Lords of the Treasury. Now, undoubtedly,
when that Commission was appointed, it was intended that the
Commissioners should be independent, and he was sure that
such would not be the case if they were to be placed under
the direction of the Lords of the Treasury._(hear, hear.)
There was still another clause to which he had formed an ob-
jection, the object of which was to place under the manage-
ment of the Church Commissioners the estates belonging to
certain corporations in the dioceses in Ireland. It was well
known that the Church Commissioners had even now
much
more business than they could well manage ; and he should
oppose, therefore, the attempt to impose upon them that ad-
ditional charge. Those were the chief objections which it was
his intention to bring before the Committee.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee.
Clauses from 1 to 12 were agreed to.
Upon the 13th Clause being put,
The Duke of WELLINGTON moved that it be struck out.
The Marquis of LANSDO WNE thought that the clause
ought to be retained. The main object was to induce persons
to come forward and make their purchases ; they did not
choose to borrow the public money at 5 per cent., and it had,
therefore, been proposed to reduce it to 3 per cent.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH opposed the Clause.
The Archbishop of ARMAGH said that the Commis'
sioners, of which he was one, had not income enough to,
defray the expenses they were called on to defray, and
therefore they were not in a condition to build new or re-
pair old churches.

The Earl of RIPON said, when the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners felt the Clause interfered with their just privileges'
he would not pursue his opposition to it further.
Lord HATHERTON said a few words in support of the
Clause.
The Clause was eventually agreed to.
Clauses 14, 15, and 16, were also agreed to.
The Duke of WELLINGTON objected to clausel7. ure did not hear on what grounds he rested the objection, exee "
t
t
so far as that he thought the acts of the Commissioners shoo
be absolute, and not be controulcd by the Legislature.
Lord HATHERTON thought a controul was necessary.
The Archbishop of ARMAGH said he received a letter,.
signifying that the Archbishop of Dublin and the Bishop 0'
Kildare would withdraw from the Board if the clause were
rejected. He should support the clause.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, though the Comoligi
sioners might have 100,0001. in hand, yet unless they had
50,000/. a year they could not lay out a shilling on the buildint'
and repairing of churches. It was never the intention of the
Legislature to restrict them in that way.
The clause was agreed to, omitting the words "
with the
consent of the Commissioners of the Crown."
Clauses 18 to 26 were agreed to.
The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the omission of
clause 27.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he should suPP°ll
the clause, though anxious for the support of cathedral serf
vice, yet, if the Vicars Choral and Minor Canons had 11°
duties to perform he would dispense with them. The Cool'
missioners themselves expressed great doubt on that poi°
He should, therefore, support the clause which went to au.; ,
lish these sinecures. He had no objection to do away wit
sinecures ; but in doing away with abuses it would be hard td
punish the innocent. He did not wish to preserve abuses, 9"
would do all in his power to prevent their recurrence. to
The Duke of WELLINGTON would readily consent
the abolition of sinecures on the demise of the present holder.
The Earl of RIPON suggested the postponement of the
clause until the next stage of the Bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would consent to Ica°
the clause open to alteration at a.future stage.
Clause agreed to.
The other clauses and the preamble were then agreed
~dto,
and the Bill ordered to be printed with the amendments,
Report to be received on Monday.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS AMENDMENTB-.0
On the proposition for going into Committee on this '
Clause 1 being proposed,
Lord WHARNCLIFFE rose for the purpose of statig
the objections he had to various parts of the Bill, and
sea
alterations he intended to propose. In the first place, he
rent
his Noble Friends strongly objected to a Bill of such goes
importance, containing as it did not fewer than eighty„ecllerra,
materially affecting the measure of Parliamentary
being introduced at so very late a period of the se6sl;/ohle
(Hear.) To the measure alluded to he and many other 101,0
Lords Ind, at the time, stated their respective objections,
of which extended to the measure altogether, while oth/cirhen
jections merely referred to the extent of its provisions•
ova
hadlo had
that Bill, however, became the law of the land, he
upon it asislie settlement of a great national question, and he
resolved t 6 do his best to preserve its efficacy unimpaired,
the
to prevent its being tampered with, either with the view ex..
curtailment of the democratic influence which it brought intoonsa•
istence, or, on the other hand, with the view to the augil2froei
tion of that influence. The obiect of the Bill now sent re-
the other House being described as "the more effectual
„eliar
gistration of persons entitled to vote," it became thc P
Pee-row_
vi-
duty of the House to watch, and jealously to watch, its
sions. It might be said that as the Bill had reference more
tions into the House of Commons, that House was thepauallf
peculiarly interested in it ; but, at the same time, it was
their Lordships' duty, as a part of the Legislative Govcci;tiory
of the country, to see that the best interests of the
wore provided for. The Noble Viscount last night_ide o
charged Noble Lords on his (Lord Wharncliffe's)g)in
the House with treating the House of Coronlill leave it
"offensive and contumelious manner." He wou,s, and t°
to the Noble Viscount to defend his own words, an
consc
say now, in his cooler moments, whether be r_fYcis the_
(loved himself justified in using such langgege tow ar,:Aly
.
Lordships, and whether be was not prepared
admit that, in using such lanauage, he had not %mue',7 fon
and
guilty of something strong?), resembling cant

Insult towards their Lordships.—( Hear, hear.) It certainly
did appear to him (Lord Wharncliffe) that it little became
the first Minister of the Crown to come down and adopt such
!stone of language towards their Lordships.--( Hear, hear.)
The Noble Viscount seemed to take it in great dudgeon that
their Lordships should look with a jealous and watchful eye
at the measures proceeding from the House of Commons. It
Was certainly true that their Lordships did consider with vigi-
.lPt and jealous attention every measure proceeding front
9e other House ; and, in his ( Lord Wharncliffe's) opinion,
their Lordships would grossly fail in their duty towards the
country if they for a moment relaxed in their close con-
sideration of the proceedings of the House of Commons,
under
the peculiar circumstances under which that House was
at present placed.—( Loud opposition cheers.) The Noble
__viscount appeared to be altogether blind to the position in
Which he and his colleagues stood.—(Hear, hear.) In the
ilea
!se of Lords they had no power whatever—( Hear, hear)—
a the House of Commons their power was barely kept up
by the precarious support of a party, who on all occasions
unequivocally declared their political opinions to be far in ad-
vance of those of Government, and their determination to
Promote the full success of those views by every means in
aue.ir power. But for that party the Government would be
rein in the minority, and a very slender minority they would
t ave.--( Hear, hear.) He was jealous, then, of the Minis-
_ers, because they had no power in the House of Commons
I:ithout the support of that art Hear hear.) They
/bad, a right, in fact it was their business—it was per-
e et'Y consitutional for the House of Lords to interfere with
,very act of legislation for the country. It was their duty to
13441c1 between the people and the Crown, to see that the
aarew,°, on the one hand, did not tread on the heels of the
on the'
and that the people on the other hand, did not infringe
that the prerogatives of tbe Crown.--( Hear, bear.) He know
re were persons in the House of Commons who made
liv,° secret—he was not accusing them of anything which they
eiti,id deny ; on the contrary it was language which they
ant* Used—they made no secret of saying that they desired
Burll organic change in the Constitution of the country, and how
en had measures been brought before that House, mea-
es
be winch had been introduced by the Government, which
o_evalne so altered by clauses foisted in by that party, that even
tilo eminent was ashamed of them. This was the case with
agar a present measure, which absolutely contained clauses
iost which some of the Ministers of the Crown had voted.
,doWag this state of things in the other House which called for
eutmost vigilance on the part of their Lordships, whose
al!ti,den duty it was to guard the country from the mischiefs
it lea must inevitably ensue from the organic changes which
"as the grand object of the party in question to bring about.
i.(4ear, hear.) He would now proceed to state the altera-
t;lr'ss which it was his intention to suggest in the Bill. In
Pre e first place, he wished explicitly to declare that he was
Parod to give every fair and reasonable facility of proper
IPOistration to the voter, and every fair and reasonable faci-
aty
4a.'or the proper exercise of the franchise, and he was
of to to clear up all those doubts which had arisen out
en!"c opposing decisions, in many cases, of the revising
sters; but he would not in any degree permit the fran-
Ise to be tampered with. He would neither suffer it to be
cone
in one sense, nor extended in the other.—( Hear,
peer') What he proposed to do was, to bring the Bill back
apatitY.nearly to that which was brought forward in 1835 ; and
7, 4 In this year, except in one instance, for he should pro-
Pse to strike out that clause in the Bill (clause 65) which
,a°vided that no building occupied with land should give a
hear')
unless it were of the clear yearly value of 5/.—( Hear,
This clause he most decidedly objected to, on the 1
(trend that it tended materially to narrow the franchise.—
ear, hear.) Again, in respect to the votes of mortgagees
el4l trustees, there was a clause in the Bill which stated that
8 mortgagee should have a vote in right of any mortgage
084 e excepte he actually received its rents and profits to his
all use. What he proposed was, to extend this principle to
trustees. Again, doubts had arisen, in consequence of
using in the Reform Bill
ithe word " occupy,"
i as to whether
asehold or copyhold n a town gave also a vote for the
aallutY, and perfectly contradictory decisions had been given
di the point by the revising barristers. To obviate this
tilituculty for the future he should propose that land " held"
per way should confer a vote in towns, if of the value of 10/.
the annum ; but that it should not also confer a vote in
a county. It had been said in the other House that the
deductionin-
of such a principle would altogether vitiate the
• d the Noble Viscount appeared to threaten that if
theere
t introduced the Bill would be lost ; but this species of
lafat amounted to a species of dictation, which their Lord-
(l,ll,a could never permit to be exercised towards them.—
p‘rgeear, hear.). There was another alteration which he had to
TaPose in reference to the appointment of revising barristers.
s me Bill stated that there were to be eleven revising barris-
tbrs, three of whom were to constitute a court of appeal. and
tae other eight were 'to be taking their circuits constantly
e-r°llgliout the country. The whole of these barristers were
'named in the Bill. Of these the principal was the present
Chief Justice of the Court of Review, whose salary in respect
atals new office was to be 1,000/. a year ; but every succeeding
t "lef Judge of Appeal was to have 2,0001. a year. The other
til7o appeal barristers were to have 1,5001. a year each, and
e_ remaining eight barristers were to have 1,000/. year
aelt• Thus eleven places were at once created, worth from
tt°oo/. to 2,000/. each, and a patronage of 13,000/. a year
writ, to the Lord Chancellor.—(llear, hear.) This was
aot'ht
it
not refrain from entering his protest against,
11 as it gave a vast additional patronage to the Lord Chan-
the or, a political character, and as it tended, in common with
jelled multiplication of the other legal offices, to endanger the
rode
of the bar, an independence which it was most
Iparable to preserve uninipaired.—( Hear, hear.) This pro-
41°0, therefore, he should propose to alter. In reference to
aaPeals, the most simple course would be that in any case of
jecifirlA or difficulty the appeal should be made to one of the
as gas of the land. He fully believed that in a very few years
saoSPPeals at all would occur, but while they did the most
had
and most efficacious course appeared to be that which
Jaci"ad stated. Indeed, unless for the purpose of giving the
tree of the Court of Review something to pass away the
.1140 •
With, he could not conceive what had actuated Ministers
ma
pie generally ng such a p •ovision. Having thus stated his
by W'' he (Lord Wharncliffe) would conclude his observations
ta4kas4lll assuring the Noble Viscount that he might fully
the up his mind to having all the measures brought up from
the Other House watched with the most jealous vigilance by
(jai 'louse of Lords.—( Hear, hear.) It was at all times the
hp„Y ef that House to pay close attention to the measures
leZht before them, but
.it was peculiarly their duty so to do
v present state of affairs.
tho IseoUnt MELBOURNE—It was hardly necessary, he
iaruht, for the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Wharncliffe) to
:1•111 their Lordships that he regarded the measures of the
daelse of Commons with " peculiar jealousy ;" for the con-
(Nit' of the Noble Lord, and those with whom he acted, was
that° a sufficient proof of the sincerity and truth with which
the" Noble
had been used by him. The course which
judi t`c}hle Lord had taken was net, in his opinion, a very
oatebsas one; for he had exhausted all his arguments, with-
It Waiting for the opportunity on which they were required.
sur • PP
tiles prised him that the Noble Lord did not perceive that
ear arguments would be worn out—that all their beauty
mar d freshness would be destroyed by bringing them for-
leva„when they were not wanted, and when they were irre-
the "aa to the present course of proceeding. He thought
ara‘°hle Lord would have done better if he reserved those
khan
oents for the frequent occasions likely to arise, and on
1, they might be fairly used. "It is not," said the
last viscount, "my intention to go into the debate of
(e ipight. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof:—
tay,".er, hear 1" from Lord Lyndhurst.) Ido not mean, I
Pared° go into the debate of last night, though I am pre-
tty to defend the meaning of the expressions which I used
alafa e course of it. When I say that I admit that it is not
is e,,3's Possible to use in debate the form of expression which
eapraetla within the strict bounds of propriety—to use such
aioaasisl°o, in fact, as may not be a little over what the occa-
sPe Calms ; but I have no hesitation in saying that with re-
laste
.to the general import of the observations which I made
re-
beg ilight--with respect to their meaning and substance—l
to aweave entirely to stand by them—(cheers)—nor do I mean
I sit i.ract any
, part or tittle of them. —a Renewed cheers.) And
tO IS not the way to produce cordiality—it is not the way
to
_reduce union between the two Houses—it is not the way
keutstablish a good understanding between them, or to pro-
th,e Public service, for the Members of one House to
aaav_wah distrust and jealousy the measures proceeding from
deei pier, aria
u to be continually imputing to them sinister
mho as and intentions of injuring and overreaching those
`a(e'cwla a part of the legislative body with themselves.
thirk°atinued cheers.) I say, whatever the Noble Lord may
di of it, there is no such ground for suspicion as that which
hot eelares ; and when the Noble Lord tells me that I do
axpli.ulderstand the situation in which lam placed, I beg to
her fn toy belief that the Noble Lord does not understand,
assaei toe slightest degree perceive, how he or those who
lino with him stand with the country.—(Cheers.) I
aeeici it is mere assertion on both sides, and time alone can
is as which is right ; but I feel as confident that there
to ale uch blindness on the part of the Noble Lords opposed
tvthieh Is there can be ignorance on my part of the situation, in
am Placed.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Noble
ureaphs•tated what was certainly true—that this Bill was
referet into the House of Commons last session : that it was
tterriem ar to a Select Committee • that it has been for an ex-
ug tl Inllg time under the consideration of that House dur-
the ic Present session • that it has gone three times through
titsc° Present
n of Committees of that House ; and that
epelieneral provisions have been agreed upon by those who sat
teeeatlPPosite sides of the House. There was undoubtedly
to concertand Political communication between those opposed
thliat the opinions opinions upon this measure, because I believe
eropos , names of the barristers who were to constitute the
sea() aeu, Court were settled b the agreement of Gentlemen
the Salter ton different sides of the House.. But with respect to
a a •
eettio ations which may have been made in the Bill, the
geieLtln ja, not whether such alterations have been suf-
they Y discussed, but whether it is prudent or wise that
stated hold be adopted?—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
lithigat t'aukat a
.discussion on the alterations which he proposed
the e place in the order in which they were submitted,
he shall therefore reserve what I have to say upon them for
pet -frPPortunity which will be affarded when each of them is
Locrn the
—( Hear chair."
1.440ri WHARNCLIFFE, hear.)
dth observed, that the first clause
ee
Whol rri,ter_
under
e question with respect to the aointent of
t too
a the new tribunal. Under the presentm system
175 barrister 3,800 days in the revision of the lists.
the ac 175
to barristers 3,800
change, it would require
.that
t • Year shobldconsiet of 490 days, in order to enable eight
aerie
to
erat that
Partgoofthrough the business. He proposed, then,
the clausei which referred to the constitution
lieW court should be omitted.
the e AIEI URNE observed, that with respect to
taeh,aetaila h
did' not mean to enter into any opposition to
totb."; but he e wished to state the situation in which the matter
stood, and to mil-trail tit with that in which it was pro-

posed to be placed. At present there were, as the Noble
Lord stated, 175 revising barristers to correct the lists
throughout the kingdom. They all knew that these barris-
ters were young gentlemen at the bar, who had not a great
deal of business. The consequence was, that the decision of
these courts of revising barristers, in which were involved
questions of title and real property—questions which were
often very difficult, and which would require experience in de-
ciding them—were to a certain degree unsatisfactory, and did
not carry with them that importance which they ought—
( Hear.) But there was a greater misfortune than that, viz.,
that the decisions pronounced were different and conflicting,
with respect to several parts of the country, and even with re-
spect to different districts of it ; for two revising barristers went
a particular circuit one year, and decided a class of cases accor-
ding to their view and judgment, and on the next year came
two other revising barristers, who reversed the decision of the
firmer, and who, being perhaps yGung• lawyers, and therefore
not only liable to the charge of inexperience, but of being
led away very often by their fancy, and by an opinion that
they were superior to others, or by a desire to distinguish
themselves by some new or unexpected course, gave a judg-
ment which created a difference of decisions in the same place
and between different parts of the samo county.—(Hear.)
Now it was necessary, in his opinion, that as much uniformity
should mark the decisions of such a court as it was possible to
procure; and it did appear to him that a settled number of
barristers of greater experience than those who were ap-
pointed at present, and, from that fact, having the greater
weight of authority in favour of their decisions, would be in-
finitely preferable for deciding the important subjects which
were investigated by such tribunals. —( Hear, hear.) In the
next place, this Bill took away any charge of having the
patronage which was afforded by the present system placed
under the, controul of the Government. He did not think that

the power could be better placed than in the hands of the
Lord Chancellor. At present the junior barristers were, to a
certain degree, made dependents upon the judges, to whom
they were obliged to look up for these appointments, whilst
the Judges themselves were liable to a certain degree of im-
putation for those whom they did appoint.--( Hear, hear.) He
did not see any real objection to this measure, however it
might be opposed, on the ground that this party or that party
were favourable to it. In his opinion they should look to the
nature of the measures, and not to the quarters in which they
originated.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord ( Wharncliffe)
admitted that he had prejudices on this subject; but it did
strike him that in questions of such importance as those which
were submitted to the revising barristers, their decisions
should be distinguished by uniformity, steadiness, and regu-
larity ; a result which was more likely to be effected
by the Court which it was intended to institute, than by
the present system, which it was, he believed, the object of
the Noble Lord ( Wharncliffe) to continue. He ought to
mention that the proposed alteration would cause a consider-
able diminution of expense, for it was calculated that the ex-
penses of the present system amounted to 33,0e51., whilst the
salaries of the proposed judges would amount to 11,0001., and
their travelling expenses to 8,000/. So that the proposed
alteration would effect a saving of 14,0001. a year. He did
not say that this saving was of very great importance, but it
was certainly a consideration worthy of some attention.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE observed, in explanation, that
his great objection to the proposed tribunal was, that it would
be composed of barristers who would not have time to attend
to any other business, and who would lose all legal habits and
knowledge of the proceedings of the courts,
Lord HOLLAND—Although I have never heard that it
was the duty of this House to regard " with jealousy" any
measure proceeding from the other House of Parliament, I
have always heard and always acceded to the opinion that
it was the duty of both Houses to regard with jealousy all
measures for the extension of patronage. Therefore, so far
as the opposition to this measure is grounded upon an objec-
tion of this nature, it is perfectly Parliamentary, usual, and
proper. Yet I cannot help thinking that the common ground
of opposition taken to this Bill, when it is urged by the Noble
Lord, in a declamatory style, that it has been suggested by
certain parties in the House of Commons, is unconstitutional
and unparliamentary.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord has told
your Lordships that this Bill has been carried by those who
have not the command of the House of Commons. The
command of the House of Commons ! My Lords, is it a
part of the duty of a Government to have the command of the
House of Commons? I have heard that it was the part of
the duty of a Government to have the confidence of the
House of Commons; and what makes that confidence but the
agreement of the majority in the acts of those who
are Ministers, and the affirmation of the propriety
of the selection of the persons and characters of
those who constitute the Government ?—( Cheers.) But in
accordance with the declamatory spirit in which the Noble
Lord has indulged, and in which he has thought -proper to
arraign a particular party in the House of Commons, he has
told your Lordships that this clause did not form a part of the
original Bill produced by the Government to the House of
Commons. So, then, the matter appears to stand thus, that
the Representatives of the people of England have thought
proper to increase the number of appointments under this
Bill, and to swell the amount of salaries, profits, and emolu-
ments to be attached to them. This is not at least a very
heavy charge against any Government, and I do not think it
is the duty of this House, with respect to matters of that kind,
over which the other House of Parliament have an especial
jurisdiction, and in which the franchises of the people are
directly Concerned, that your Lordships should regard such
measures with " peculiar jealousy" or " peculiar anxiety."—
( Hear, hear.) So far from its being true that it is the part of
this House to regard with jealousy a measure sent up to it
from the other House of Parliament, in my opinion it is the
duty, and it has been the practice of either House of Parlia-
ment to look upon every Bill with fair consideration, and
gravely to deliberate upon any measure which either directly
or indirectly affected the constitution of that House from which
it was sent. I think that I shall be borne out by your Lord-
ships' recollection when I assert, that any measure which re-
lated to the elective bodies in your Lordships' House has been
treated with great delicacy, and passed as rapidly as possible
by the other House of Parliament. I confess I do not see the
policy or the wisdom of urging on a subject to which we are
desirous to give our strict attention—for I take it for granted
that it is the wish of your Lordships to give a bona
.fide effect
to the desire of the House of Commons—our jealousy and ap-
prehension of the popular views entertained by a particular
party in that House.—( Cheers.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that when he used the word
" command," he of course meant that the Government did not
possess the confidence of the House of Commons. That sen-
timent he would repeat, and would maintain that his Majesty's
present Ministers did not enjoy the confidence of the House of
Commons—(lronical cheers)—but were kept in office by the
support of a party who knew that they could in the moment
put an end to their tenure of it, if they were disposed to ex-
ercise their power.—( Opposition cheers.)
Lord HOLL AND—I am willing to take the meaning of
the word " command" in the sense in which the Noble Lord
has interpreted it—that of " confidence ;" but I wish him to
recollect his own sentences, and to ask him if we do not enjoy
the " confidence" of the House of Commons, what is the na-
ture of his reasoning ? Mark what his reasoning is—he says
we do not enjoy the confidence of the House of Commons,
and that we are commanded by a portion of that House, so
that he, in fact, says this—the measures you propose are not
yours, but they are the measures of the House of Commons.
Well, thee, I maintain that any measures regarding the
people, and the internal affairs of the House of Commons,
whether they are directly or indirectly concerned, ought to
be the measures, not of a mere party, or of any set of indi-
viduals, or even of the Executive Government itself.—(Cries
of Hear.) We have got into so lax and unconstitutional a
way of debating of late, as would lead one to suppose that
legislation belonged exclusively to the Executive Government
of the country, and we have now at length begun to regard
with jealousy the conduct of those who constitute the other
branch of the Legislature, and to ask, upon a measure being
submitted to our consideration, whether this man or that
moved it—whether it was supported by such a man, and
with what view he gave his adhesion to it. My Lords, all
this is unconstitutional and unparliamentary ; and although
sometimes, by way of giving variety to a dull debate, such
insinuations or allusions might have been formerly permitted,
it was not till the present session of Parliament that we hear
gravely and constantly alleged, as reasons against your Lord.
ships' assenting to any measure, that this man who supported
it was a Whig, that that was a Radical, that a Tory, and that
one was a Roman Catholic, and another a Protestant—all
which distinctions are repugnant to the principles of the Con-
stitution, and would seem to imply that we had a command or
controul over those who belong to another branch of the Le-
gislature.—(Cheers.) This is not the way to bring about a
good understanding between the two Houses of Parliament.
There is no man who would regret more than I should any
collision between the two branches of the Legislature, but I
am of opinion that the constant practice of indulging in insi-
nuations, of criminations and recriminations, by recurring to
every unlucky or indiscreet, or coarse, or angry expression,
that this man or that may have used, and then quoting these
words as reasons, forsooth, for judging with severity and
jealousy the deliberate acts of the representatives of the peo-
ple of this country, does unfortunately tend to bring about
that result which, if it ever arrive, all must deplore.—( Cheers. )
Lord FITZGERALD said that lie did not think it had
ever been considered unfitting, or unbecoming, or unexampled
to quote the authority of those Members of the Government
who had introduced a measure into the House of Commons
in accordance with the views entertained by their opponents ;
or to refer to the labours of a committee of the House of Com-
mons which recommended for the adoption of the Govern-
ment those views. The Noble Baronet had stated that it was
not expedient or wise to quote the expressions of individuals as
a means of directing the decisions of their Lordships, but he
had heard of expressions imputed to Members of their Lord-
ships' House taken as a ground for charging them with miscon-
duct. He had heard of accusations made through such quota-
tions of contumelious and insulting conduct towards the House
of Commons ; and for this only reason, that their Lordships
had exercised an independent and unquestionable right in deal-
ing with the propositions submitted to them.— (Hear.) This
at least was not in accordance with the observations which had
been made by the Noble Baron opposite. He altogether con-
curred in the view taken by the Noble Baron of the necessity
of maintaining a good understanding between both Houses of
Parliament; but lie could not help considering it a departure
from the rule which had been laid down, that a Member of
the Government should, after assenting to a proposition—no
doubt with a reservation that future legislation on the subject
should not be prejudiced—have concurred in a measure which
had obtained the support of a majority in the other House of
Parliament ; and with respect to which, so far from recom-
mending a conciliatory mode of reconciling the differences
which existed, called, in language which was not to be mis-
understood, upon that majority not to lose six days, six hours,
or six minutes, in rejecting that plan to which the speaker of
that language had himself been a party, and to which he was
now the first to raise the standard of rejection, by deprecat-

ing the course which he strongly recommended on a former
occasion.
The LORD CHANCELLOR supported the clause, and
said that the evils resulting from the inconsistent decisions of
170 revising barristers were seriously felt, and required to be
remedied, and the plan proposed by the clause was calculated
to obviate them. He apprehended that the Noble Lord would
not deny the existence of those evils. Nay, the very proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord assumed that there was something
which required correction, for he proposed that all the ques-
tions arising out of the decisions of the revising barristers
should be referred to the Judges of the land—that was to say,
that the right of votinc, for Members of the House of Com-
mons should be referred to the Judges.
Lord A BIN G E R.—And why not?
The LORD CHANCELLOR—Why not! Because it

was a direct political question.
Lord AB ING E R.—lt was a question of law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—So were all questions o_
political franchise questions of law in one respect; but were
they not questions also of politics? From whom were the
judges to take their law? Would it not be from the Com-
mittees of the House of Commons, who, after all, would have a
paramount jurisdiction? Was this a task which the judges
ought to be required to perform? To refer to them questions
involving the interests of political parties was most objection-
able in principle ; for, decide as they might, it would subject
them to the reproaches of one party or the other. It had
been objected that the now revising barristers were required
to abandon their professional pursuits at the bar. He saw no
ground for that objection. The experiment had been already
tried with respect to the commissioners of bankrupts, and it had
succeeded. Besides, the barristers would have ample em-
ployment, so that if they were not required by this Bill to
confine themselves to their own especial duties, yet, in point
of fact, they would not have time to practise at the bar.
Then the evil of contradictory decisions, which, under the
new system, would, no doubt, occasionally happen, was pro-
vided for by having a court of appeal. What could be more
wholesome or convenient than the establishment of a central
court in London, to which all the various decisions of the bar-
risters might be referred ? The Noble and Learned Lord con
eluded by saying that the proposition of Lord Wharncliffe ad-
mitted that the present system required a remedy ; but he
trusted their Lordships would feel that the proposition itself
was so objectionable in principle as not to be proper for their
adoption.
Lord ABINGER said that his Noble and Learned Friend
had assumed that the judges could have no jurisdiction over
the right of voting fora Member of the House of Commons,
—(No, no, by the Lord Chancellor.) He was glad to hear
that disclaimer, as his Noble and Learned Friend must remem-
ber the decision in the case of Ashby and White, which the
House of Lords confirmed, by which it was decided that the
question of a right of voting was a proper question to be tried
at law. His Noble and Learned Friend said that it would
place the judges in a delicate position to determine the right
of voting ; but why should he suppose that the judges would
be affected by political motives, because the question they were
trying concerned political men ? The question the judges
would have to try was a question of law only, of which they
must necessarily be the most competent judges. His Noble
and Learned Friend had said that the decisions of the judges
would be guided by the decisions of the Committees of the
House of Commons. For his part he had never known any
judge receive, as authority, any decision of a Committee of the
House of Commons. He had never heard any such decision
quoted, or any such citation encouraged. He had always un-
derstood it to be the opinion of the most sensible, learned,
and constitutional men, that it would be desirable to have
a separate tribunal to decide the difficalt questions arising out
of the deciions of the committees of the House of Commons.
He did not approve of the system of registration, but the true
objection against that system was the urging on of registra-
tion after registration every year without any interruption.
The proper course to adopt would be to have the voters once
registered by the overseers, and then allow them to remain on
the register till a certain period had elapsed, when the regis-
tration might again take place. But this perpetual registra-
tration, year after year, kept the country in a state of excite-
ment most injurious to the quiet and peace of society. He had
always thought that the present system of registration never
could succeed by the means of any machinery that could be
adopted. With respect to the differences of opinion amongst
the revising barristers, nobody knew better than his Noble and
Learned Friend that differences of opinion among professional
men became the subject of constant conversation among them-
selves, and that at last the better opinion prevailed. Many
contradictory decisions had already become settled ; and he
was satisfied that the differences of opinion would diminish
every year, and that as the experience of the barristers in-
creased, their decisions would finally become uniform. With
respect to the appointment of the revising barristers he dis-
claimed anything like patronage. He was not aware of
any change having been made except in cases of resignation
or death. On the borne circuit he had not made a single
change, and the only new appointments made were to sup-
ply vacancies occasioned by death. He believed his prede-
cessor bad acted upon the same rule ; and all the appoint-
ments were originally made by Lord Denman. If there were
any mode by which more uniform decisions might be obtained,
it was that which his Noble Friend had suggested—namely,
that written cases should be prepared by the barristers where
any question of doubt arose, and these cases submitted to the
Judges. He was quite convinced that after a year or two
such cases would be very few indeed; but when such ques-
tions arose, why should the Judges be supposed to know for
what candidate, or for what party, the persons whose votes
were in question were going to vote ? If any person should
have the audacity to tell the Judge, " Your Lordship will
have the goodness to consider, that if this register be
decided so and so, it will be favourable to so and e so,"
would any Judge submit to it? He had not, therefore, the
least doubt that the plan of his Noble Friend would be
most efficient, and he did not believe that twenty cases
in a year would be brought before the Judges, after the
first year. Another objection to having this tribunal was,
that as the barristers would have nothing else to do for a
great part of their time, in the course of a short time they
would not he competent to do even that ; they would lose all
their connection with the profession to which they belonged,
and would, by confining their views to one class of cases, have
their attention so narrowed that they would lose all knowledge
of general questions of law. He therefore thought that upon
principle they would constitute the most objectionable tribunal
that could be established.

Their Lordships then divided—
For Lord Wharncliffe's amendment
Against it
Majority
Clause 2 and 3 was agreed to
Clauses 4,5, 6,7, and 8 were struck out ;- and clauses 10
and 11, with amendments, were agreed to.
Several other clauses were agreed to, some with amend-
ments, at the suggestion of Lord Wharncliffe, the nature of
which was not ascertained in the gallery.
Lord NV HARNCL IFFE proposed the insertion of a clause
with a view to prevent persons having borough property to
vote both for Members for the borough and for knights of the
shire, by virtue of the same property. This, the Noble Lord
said was, as he apprehended, strictly in accordance with the
original intentions of the framers of the Reform Act, although
doubts had since arisen as to the fact. The insertion of this
clause, therefore, would have the effect of settling that dis-
puted point, and that in the way originally designed.
Viscount MELBOURNE opposed the insertion of this
clause. If a doubt did exist upon this subject, he would
rather have it referred for decision to the tribunal which was
now open for it, namely, the judges of the land, than run the
risk of altering these interests as established by the Reform
Act..--The House then divided—.
Contents 54
Non-contents
Majority in favour of the clause —34
Clause 65 was, after a short conversation, struck out.
The House then resumed, the Bill was ordered to be
reprinted with amendments, and the report ordered to be re-
ceived on Monday.
The House then adjourned, at a Quarter to One o'Clock,
until to-morrow (this day).

. -36

On Monday night last, as NV. Earle, master of one
of the fishing-boats belonging to Mr. James Goring, was trawl-
ing in this bay ( Seaford), he caught a perfect clawed lobster,
whose size exceeds, beyond all comparison, anything of the
kind ever seen by the oldest fisherman in this town. This fine
shellfish measures one yard in length, from the extremity of
the feelers to that of the tail, 22 inches from the nose to the
tail, 16 inches in girth, and the claws or pincers are sib; inches
long and nine inches round. A gentleman visiting here, who
has been much amongst the lobster fishery in tht; West of Eng-
land, says, that the largest he ever saw or heard of weighed
seven pounds, and the Dover and Deal pilots in the roadstead
have seen them from six to seven pounds ; whereas this asto-
nishing fish weighed nine ponnds and a half. It was taken,
we understand, to Brighton market. Trawl fish are exceed-
ingly plentiful here, and soles are selling for 4d per pound.—
Br.gliton Gazette.

GEORGE BUCHANAN.—The monument erected to
the memory of this distinguished scholar and historian at Kil-
learn, the place of his nativity, has been suffered to fall into a
state of dilapidation. It appears, however, that a subscription
is in progress to restore it. The probable expense is calcu-
lated at 2001. or 3001. Of this, 561. 14s. is subscribed, and
of the 18 individuals contributing it, 13 are of the name of
Buchanan.

The Court of Assizes of Arlon (Luxembourg) has
recently been occupied with a trial which has caused great
interest in that province. The servant girl at a farm-house at
Rodeshausen was accused of having attempted to poison
twelve persons, by wilfully mixing arsenic with the pancakes
which she prepared for their dinner. The mistress died from
the effects of the poison, and the other persons were seriously
ill for a considerable time. The motive of the girl, whose
name is Mary Catherine Balm, was supposed to be jealousy
towards the young farmer, who had promised her marriage,
but afterwards united himself to another young woman of the
neighbourhood. Bhe is described as being a girl of extremely
manners and appearance. She
interesting; and prepossessing
persisted throughout the trial that she was innocent of the
crime laid to her charge, but was found guilty by a majority
of the jury, and condemned to death..
PRICE OF. BREAD.--TIIE WEATHER.--The
long tract of bad weather has, as might have been expected,
raised the price of wheat, and, as a necessary consequence, we
observe that a rise of a half-penny is to take place on the 41b.
loaf today. The first quality is to be 7d. to 7i-d. (cash or
credit) and the second 6d. to 6id. Flour, 2s. Bd. per stone.
Should, however, the fine settle weather which we have en-
joyed since Friday, with a. similar amount of sunshine con-
tinue a few weeks, we may expect to find a corresponding fall
in prices. We were sorry to see numbers of Irish labourers
passing through the town eastward yesterday. They have ar-
rived too soon by several weeks.—Caledortian Mercury.