The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

T B SUN..

_
to know alio whether any account of the tariff of Por-
tugal or Spain had been received since the last assem-
blage of Parliarnent ? Last session a motion was made
requiring our consuls to send over thoSe tarn, but those
ord-rs never had been obeyed. He was the more sur-
prised at this because our friendly relations with Por-
tugal never had been disturbed, and there was a core
petent person at the Court of Lisbon to furnish su
documents, and, although our intercourse with the
Court of Spain was broken, he understood from the
Noble Lord at the close of last session that we still re-
tained a Consul there perfectly capable of discharging
. his duty in protecting the subjects of this realm, and in
watching over the interests of our trade and commerce.
Whilst he was upon this subject he might be per-
mitted to answer the inquiry made by the Noble Lord
(Palmerston) the other night, as to whether, in revenge
for the affront we had received from Spain, he (Mr.
Baunkhe.) would go to war with her ?—(Hear, and a
g
The Noble Lord at the same time assured him
a
that he must not take to himself the credit of having
caused the eXpulsion of the Spanish Minister. He
begged to assure the Noble Lord he never assumed nor
desired to assume any credit in tl•es matter, for in his
mind there never had been a more bungling piece of
business, nor one less likely to vindicate the honour of
this country. The Minister of Spain was allowed to re-
main here for many days after our representative at the
Court of Spain had arrived in London, affording a proof
of the grefttest insult one nation could inflict upon
another.—(Rear, hear.) If he (Mr. Bankes) had had
the management of affairs, he trusted the Spanish
Minister would not have been allowed to remain here, as
Ambassador, for as many hours. M. Isturitz was, no
doubt, a gentlemen of the highest charicter, fit to repre-
sent so gallant a nation ; but he should
have been at once informed that he could no
longer remain here as the Minister of Spain. In
reply to the Noble Lord's inquiry, he begged to say
that he would not go to war with Spain; but, if he had
the power, he would find out who was the originator of
the insult she had offered to this country. The real
originator might be found, perhaps, in England, sittin
at that moment on the Treasury bench. The Noble
Lord had been pleased to say that the Opposition had
become a war party, a charge which came with a very
ill grace from the Noble Lord ; for, if they were open
to such a charge, it was because they had taken the
word of Ministers for it that the estimates of last year
were necessary for the public service, and had assisted
in carrying those estimates through Parliament, when
the effect of an opposite course would have been that the
plans of the Government would have been defeated, and
Ministers would have lost their seats in the Cabinet.
The words of the Noble Lord were, that the force
then proposed was " necessary to a man."
" Who," it had been said, " asked them to con-
gratulate the Crown upon the improving state of
commerce, manufactures, and the revenue?" With
reference to the expression of " satisfaction,"
which appeared on that subject in the Address, he
(Mr. Bankes) could not join in that expression when he
found that not ono Member representing the manufac-
turing interest had said there was a progressive im-
provement in manufacture s. Would the Honourable
Members for Manchester and the West Riding of York-
shire say that the manufacturing interests were in such
a state as to warrant expressions of congratulation?
But, till they did so, could Ministers expect Honourable
Gentlemen, from complaisance, to join in the expressions
of satisfaction employed in the Address? With respect
to the revenue, what was the result of the balance, sheet
put that morning into the hands of Honourable Mem-
bers? The last item was the excess of expenditure over
income, amounting to 796,4191—(Hear, hear)—then
there was a sum of China money, 539,3051., a casual
source of 'revenue; and the produce of the sale of old
stores, 308,4151, was an item of the same kind. Yet
Ministers called on the House, not to congratulate the
Crown, but to express satisfaction at a progressive im-
provement of the revenue. Another million bad been
struck off by the removal of the corn duties; and the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had now bound himselt
never to resort again to that source of revenue. " Would
you not have done better," they had been told, " had you
taken a fixed duty?" But now the Noble Lord said the
fixed duty would have dwindled down.

Lord J. RUSSELL—You would have had it now.

Mr. B ANKES thought that was the most satisiac
tory part of the prospects fur the revenue he had yet
heard of hear.) When there was no more old
stores to fall back upon, the Noble Lord would turn to
a fixed duty. Yet it was in such a state of affairs
that the House were to be called on, the day after to-
morrow, to make a new grant for Ireland.
Mr. M. GIBSON believed it was true, as now stated,
that the English trade in Brazil or the personal rights
of individuals connected with that trade were not in so
satisfactory a state as they ought to be.—(Elear, hear.)
But he attributed that state of matters to the hostile
policy pursued towards Brazil with reference to the
slave-trade. They were seizing Brazilian ships under
the authority of an Act passed by this House
without the sanction of any treaty; they were acting
only on the principle of might over right. But could
it be matter for surprise if some difficulties still remained
for trade to contend with, difficulties which had
been created by persevering in a system of re-
striction ? Every one felt that there was an
improvement in manufactures and trade.—(Hear, hear.)
But every one knew at the same time that it required
all the skill, enterprise, and industry that could be
brought to bear on the trade of the country to keep it in
a state of progressive prosperity. The country gentle-
men had, as the friends of tenant-occupiers, taken en
extraordinary course. First, they did not ask protec-
tion. That was evaded. The Honourable Member for
Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) never mentioned the
word, but spoke of reciprocity.—(Hear, hear.) _ But
Honourable Gentlemen threw censure on the Govern-
ment, because it pointed to retrenchment and economy.
The smallest hint that there would be economy in the
public expenditure, and reduction in the national arma-
ments, was received in a tone calculated to excite sur-
prise. Those Hon. Gentlemen ought to answer the
question put by the Hon. Member fur Montrose. What
would they have for the farmer?—(Hear, hear.) They
came forward as the friends of tenant-occupiers, and
yet did all they could to discourage the Executive from
retrenchment and economy.—(Hear, hear.) The farmers
called for the repeal of the malt tex; an Hon. Member
from Essex had made an appeal on the subject. How
could such taxes be reduced unless the expenditure were
reduced? He was connected with agriculture himself;
he felt his interests in tho hands of Hon. Gentlemen ;
and he must he permitted to say that if they continued
their present course the country would hold them re-
sponsible for the obstruction of economical measures,
and the maintenance of large and unnecessary establish-
ments. He should besorry to tee agitation carried beyond
the point of giving instruction—(lronical cheers)—be-
cause there could not be any safe legislation which was
not founded on public opinion, and it was necessary to
form a sound public opinion. The Royal Speech and the
Address spoke of " attachment to our institutions," and
of " the Constitution, founded on the principles of free-
dom and justice." That was rather a lofty flight. He
wished the tone of the speech had been a little more
qualified. He did not like the " matchless Consti-
tution" doctrine. He thought there were faults, and
there were institutions to which there was anything
but attachment. He did not believe the Roman
Catholics of Ireland were attached to the Established
Church of Ireland, or the Dissenters to the Established
Church of England. But he wished to know how much
had been the free gif s of the Government to the people
—how far their privileges under the constitution had
been wrested from their rulers by the strenuous efforts
of the people themselves ? Therefore he did not dis-
courage the fair and legitimate discussion of public
question:. The Hon. Member for the West Riding of
Yorkshire, in calling attention to the expenditure, was
assisting the Government to resist the pressure of pro-
fessions which, if the Executive had not something to
lean against, must hurry it into a reckless and extrava-
gant course. He would only further express the hope
that the Government would persevere in its commercial
policy, and remove the differential duties which still
deformed the tariff. The tenant farmers had a right to
say the principle of free competition should be carried
oue—(l fear, hear.) He hoped Ministers would bring in
a good and whole measure on the navigation laws; if it
were as complete as the measure for the repeal of the
corn-laws, they would earn and merit the gratitude of
the country.
Sir J. TYRELL contended that in noticing the omis-
sions of the Royal Speech the Hon. Gentlemen were doing
only what the Noble Lords opposite had done when
they used to tear royal speeches to pieces. Seeing the
indecent haste with which the Government had adopted
the financial scheme of the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, it might be imagined that they were actuated by
a desire to vamp up his character as a prophet. If Mi-
nisters adopted the Hon. Member's plan, the least they
could do was to give him a place on the Treasury
bench. The Government might depend upon it that
the agriculturists would not; be des royed without an
effort being made on.their behalf. Meetings on an ex•
tensive scale were about to take place in the agricultural
districts, and the cause of the landed interest had lately
obtained the aid of some noble converts in another place.
Was it fair that agriculture should be exposed to com-
petition with the whole world when at the present
moment several articles of manufacture were protected
by a duty of 10 per cent. ?—(A. Member on the Minis-
terial side—" Not cotton articles.") He did not allude
to cotton ; some persons had nothing but cotton in their
heads.—(A laugh.) lie had felt it his duty to support
Ministers in their estimates last session, but in conse-
quence of their conduct upon that point he would sup-
port them no longer, and would regard the proceedings
of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer with great caution.
Mr. WODEEIOUSE expressed his concurrence in all
that had fallen from his Noble Friend (the Marquis of
Granby) with reference to the distressed state of agri-
culture, and declared that there was every prospect that
all persons connected with the occupancy of land would
be exposed to intense suffering.
Mr. FRE WEN also said that the agricultural interest
was in a very depressed state, in proof of which he re-
ferred to the fact that the Noble Lord (the Member for
South Durham) who moved the Address had at present
several farms in Sussex thrown upon his hands. In the
Weald of Sussex and West Kent it was impossible to
find tenants for farms, even at greatly reduced rents.
Half the farmers in Kent would be unable to pay the
hop duty.
Mr. J . O'CONNELL explained that in what he had
said on the first night of the session he did not mean to
say that Lord Minto had encouraged the promoters of
disorder in the Papal St •he merely stated the fact
that
celeabtrahteisd
Lord Min States;
. •
other agitators to received Sterbini, Cicerovaccio, and
'lave been said,house.c uff e y aAt Vhhi
sa What, e
shi
de
received the , if a foreign envoy to this country had
would
Mr. P. RENNET residence?
T bore testimony to the distress under
which agricultur
lately seen et
was labouring, and stated that he had
ter whea . The farmers of
good quality sell for 38s. per quer-
their labourers were compelled to discharge many of
mast to
they retained. reduce the wages of those whom

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING,

He would abstain from entering upon an investigation of
the disputed questions connected with th&administration
of the poor-law in Ireland. The inquiry into those dis-
puted points of administration had better be left to the
Committee. He would only ray that, although the Go-
vernment would hell fast to the general principles of
the law, he was of opinion that many improvements in it
would be found to be practicable and desirable.—(Hear,
hear.) What these improvements were would be better
stated before the Committee, and he would not go into
them now. It had been said that the course taken by
the Government would only delay legislation, but so far
as the Government were concerned there was no wish
for delay. This was now but the third day of the ses-
sion, and he proposed the appointment of this Select
Committee with a view to speedy legislation.—
(Hear, hear.) No effort should be wanting on the
part of the Government to bring the proceed-
ings connected with this question to a speedy issue, and
to further any future legislation with the view to place
the law on a more satisfactory footing.—(Cheers.) Ho
made no doubt that the same desire of speedy legislation
end of improving the law would animate every gentle-
man who might serve upon the Committee, end he did
not despair of Parliament being able to come, during the
course of the present session, to a satisfactory conclusion,
and to make several improvements in the general law
for the relief of the Irish poor.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee on the Irish poor-law.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that it had been the object of
the Irish Members last year to direct the attention of
the House to the naturo and inevitable results of
the ruinous legislation pursued by the House, by which
the property of three-fourths of the Irish land-
lore's had been annihilated, and whatever energy
and self-reliance had existed among the farmers
and peasantry had been destroyed. Referring a sub-
ject to a Select Committee was always understood to be
another mode of shelving it for the rest of the session,
and the present would be, he feared, no exception to
that rule. There never was any law in any country so
universally detested by both the ratepayers and the re-
cipients of relief as the Irish poor law. The average
amount of poor-rate in Connaught was 2s. 7d. in the
pound on a valuation which was nearly double what it
ought to be, while the average rate throughout England
was only Is. 6d. in the pound. In several parts of Ire-
land the rate was proportionately heavy as compared
with the poor-rate in England. He desired to ask,
would it not be better to leave their lands untilled, like
much of the land in the county of Mayo, rather than go
on as a large proportion of the people of Ireland were
now obliged to proceed? It was thus that many of the
people of Ireland felt, and it was in that spirit that they
said it was better for them to do that than have the
fruits cf their hard labour torn from them by soldiery
and police. By the provisions of English legisla-
tion those who had the administration of the poor-
law in Ireland were called upon to do four times '
the amount of duty that was imposed upon simi-
lar functionaries in England; and yet the Irish were
taunted with being unfit to manage their own affairs.
This was one ground of compla nt; another was, that
Government did not state whether or not they would
support the recommendation made by the Commis-
sioners. Before he sat down he wished to remind the
English Members of that House that the Irish land-
owners had not purchased and had not inherited their
estates on any such terms as were now sought to be im-
posed on them. The English had no right to bring the
Irish proprietors up to their level in the way of poor-
law taxation. When he admitted the right of the poor
of the country to be supported by the property of the
country, he meant that the whole property of the
country should support them; not that the land alone
should bear the burden. He felt convinced that by a
proper system of rating, by making workhouses self-
supporting, by subjecting all property to a due share of
the poor-rates, the whole expense need not exceed
500,0001. a year, and the rating not be above Is. in the
pound. Finally, he would add, that some declaration
ought to come from the Government calculated to give
confidence to the agricultural class in Ireland, and he did
not hesitate to say that if they were not inspired with
some degree of confidence at the present season, the i
greater part of Munster and Connaught would remain
unsown.

Mr. FAGAN observed, that one strong reason in fa-
vour of the present motion was, that there existed so
much variety of opinion on the subject of the poor-law.
At the meeting of the Irish Members which took place
recently there were as many opinions as there were
Members present. The Hon. Member for Waterford
was in favour of a townland rating; be (Mr. Fagan) was
against it, and in favour of a modified labour-rate, as
had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Stroud.
The Hon. Member for Meath was against any poor-law
whatever—(A laugh)—while the Hon. Member for Tip-
perary contended for a general union rate, to be imposed
for the benefit of the aged and infirm, at the same time
that a local rate was to be LAI for the able-bodied poor.
He did believe that the complaints against the poor-law
in Ireland were founded chiefly upon the effect of the
abnormal condition in which the country was after three
years of famine. In that time 40,000,0004 of the capital
of the nation was consumed, and they should rather
legislate on a state of things such as the country was
likely to present three years hence, than on that which
now existed. In his opinion, the agitation against the
por-law was caused mainly by the effects of the fa-
mine; and it was hardly fair to render taxation per-
manent merely on account of a temporary visitation of
Providence.

Major BLACKALL said that the Irish landlords had
no wish to shift the responsibility of supporting the poor
off their own shoulders. Although it was patent to all
the Irish landlords that the Bill was working to their
disadvantage, that fact might not be evident to English
Members, and he therefore wished for inquiry. Ile hoped
they would not make the present state of Ireland the
basis of their legislation, but rather take ft as it was
likely to be in a tew years hence; neither ought they to
legislate upon the grounds which the condition of any
district or province presented.

Mr. BRIGHT said that although he had no fault to
find with the proposition then made to the House by
her Majesty's Government, he still could not overlook
h.o fact that there was an extraordinary unanimity
of complaint upon that subject. But Honourable
Members who came into that House from Ireland de-
ceived themselves if they thought that the corn-law—
(A laugh)—he meant the poor-law—he had recently been
thinking so much about the corn-laws, that perhaps
the House would excuse his having inadvertently used
the ono term instead of the other. What he meant to
insist upon was this, that lion. Members who come from
Ireland greatly deceived themselves if they supposed
that defects in the poor-law had any very large share in
producing the misery with which that country was
afflicted. It was not the poor-law, but it was excessive
pauperism which produced those results. They well
knew that the English poor-law never had been the sub-
ject of so much complaint as the Irish, but if in any dis
trict of England there happened to exist anything like
the extreme pauperism that was to be found in some
parts of Ireland, the English poor-law would be com-
plained of just as loudly as the Irish. He was happy to
hear it said that the property of Ireland was not indis-
posed to support the poverty of Ireland; but ho did most
earnestly hope that Hon. Members would feel that shift-
ing the burden of the poor-law from one part of the
country to another, or endeavours to shift the staff of the
poor-law functionaries from place to place, would afford no
substantial relief to any quarter. There was no rational
ground for seeking to throw burdens upon the mort-
gagees in the manner which the Hon. Member near him
suggested. If the lion. Member or any other person
borrowed money of an English capitalist, and agreed to
pay for that a certain interest, surely he ought to pay it.
It he refused to do so there could be no doubt that cir-
cumstances would soon compel him to borrow a fresh
loan on such terms as would give the lender not only a
sufficient interest for the use of his money, but also a
sufficient sum in addition to meet the amount of poor-
rates with which he as mortgagee might be charged. It
would in the end come to the same thing, and the Hon.
Member might be assured of this, that Ireland would
never get rid of her difficulties till she got rid of
her poverty. He was certain of this, that until la-
bour was applied to land, until industry was
brought to the land so as to develop the
resources of the country, things would go on
in their present course, and the Irish landlords would be
eaten up. Further he would say, that there was not
wealth enough in all England to meet the necessities of
the Irish people if that race were able to do nothing for
themselves.—(clear, hear.) Land in Ireland was so
overwhelmed with encumbrances that it could not be
made to produce as land ought.—(Hear, hear.) They
had much discussion in that House on the Bill of last
year for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates; and
in that House it had been made somewhat better than it
was is the shape in which it originally came to them.
But the Government was now unable to show that
that Bill had done one particle of good ; on the con-
trary, be believed it had done much mischief. In his
judgment, it was not of the least use to any one except
the Irish lawyers. Legislation of that kind, or of any
other, would not be of the slightest service to the Irish
people until Parliament set itself fairly to the work of
grappling with the land question in Ireland. There was
no use iu landlord or tenant Bills; the profits of labour
and of land must be made to support the poor of Ireland
or everything would be eaten up.—(Hear.)
Mr. STAFFORD agreed with the Hon- Member for
Manchester, that nothing could be done till the laud
question was settled. Two years ago he had the painful
duty of stating the same arguments as that put forward
by the Hon. Member for Manchester, and he believed
that neither the Encumbered Estates Bill nor the Far-
mers' Estate Bill would work in many provinces until
they dealt with the Irish poor in the manner he then in-
sisted upon. He would direct Hon. Gentlemen's atten-
tion to a paragraph which appeared last week in a news-
paper, showing that there was no indisposition on the
p trt of men of property in Ireland to pay a fair poor-
rate. It appeared that in the worst electoral division of
the worst province in Ireland there was an island called
Arranmore, where such a vast number of paupers was to
be found that it was impossible to know how to deal with
them. A Belfast capitalist came forward and
.offered to
buy the island, which belonged to a Noble Marquis, but he
required, first, not that Government money should be ad-
vanced, or that he should be relieved from the poor-rate,
but that the island should be made an electoral division
of its .If. The Poor-law Commissioners acceded to the
request ; the island was purchased by the Belfast capi-
talist, and the work of improvement and employment
was progressing there. Here was a case where the re-
sources of the land were developed, arising out of the
i man was
just resolution of the question—what return
to get for his money? lion.
Gentlemen in England
would be astonished to find, on getting up in the morn-
ing, that the boundaries of their possessions were altered,
half being placed in one district and half in another--
but such was the case in Ireland. The lines of division
were drawn without reference to the parishes, sometimes
without reference to the counties, in the most random
manner. It was formerly stated that these lines were
irremovable, but the proposition for smaller areas,
scouted in 1e47, was received with wore favour