The Sun.
London, England, 1809-03-25 00:00:00

IM PER IA L PARLIAMENT.

HOLSE OF PEERS,
FRIDAY, MARCH 24. •
The R:iyal Assent was given by COMMiSSiaII to
the 11:xcliequer Bills Fundi,:g Bill, the Royal Marine.
Mutiny But, the Cape of Good Hope Trade Bill,-the
Bermuda. Jamaica
.Free Port Bill,
the two Expiring Laws Biil, aticl some other Bills, in
all, public and private, tOurteen..
The Commissioners were the. Lord Chancellor,
the Earl of Aylesford, anti. Lord Wa!sitigilonnz -s: •
Tlie North American. linpurtatiou Bill WiiS
read a third time, and pa.,,.eci.
The Crown Office Clefts' Bill, and the New-
foundland Judicature Bill, paSsed through Commit,
tees, and veers reported.' •

The TobateirGc:noral rrn;4ort bil), arid a prit'are
we? broui;bt up, from tne Coinrnoos- by Mr.
Wharton., Mr.. CartwriOlt, and utlirr iNleuthers, and
read a tirlit

Mr. Irving, from the Treasury, presented Ac-
eoUntS of the Public Income and Expenditure or
the year Isoa, which were' ordered to lie on the
The Earl 'of Limooot, presented Returns re-
speaing the A,rmy in S'oaio-and Portugal,-in pur-
suance of an Address to the House.
punue BILLS. •

Lord I.treardst4u called the attention •of their
Lordships to the manner of sending up the Public
Bills to. that Floosie which peculiarly called for
some alteraeion. the last Session no.less than 75
Public Bills were brought uotc> that House in the last
tritetwteKs of the Session, 'which iniountedi to half
the whole number of Public Bills passed during the
Session, Stich a mass of Bills being sent up at SO
late a period; it was, impossible that the requisite
attentien could be paid to them, or that their Lord-
ships cuuld take their proper share in the.legislation
of the country.
Laid Geeevrlee also urged the great inconve-
silence which arose (rani this praalec,.ernd referred
to a Petition it) the Votes of , the House of Com-•
mons, from one of the Clerks of the House, apolo-
gizing for some mistake which had occurred on ace
count of the multiplicity-of business at a late period
of the ae.iion,„ winch rendered it impossible' to pay
the necessary attention to it. This evil had arisen
to a height which loudly called Ibr the application of
some remedy. A large seas of Bills were brought.
up at perioe of the Session, when many Noble,
Lords were necessarily absent in the discharge of
their public duties, and any others in the discharge
of their private duties, . which, from their import.
ance, might be called public duties and thus the
Bills were hurried through the House without the
Possibility of considering them—a pra6tice which, if
suffered to prevail, would render their Lordships'
legislative fieeraibns in a great measure nugatory, and
reduce the House to the situation of merely 'register-
ing the nets of the Com Mons. ••: • •
The Earl of Levemoteobserved, that the Mass
of legislation .was, in some degree, a subject fur
congratulation, as it arose from the Increased wealth
end prosperity of the'country. At the same time,
hoWrei'er, he thoeght much might be dohe to de-
,crease the*lness, iv generalising, instead of partici)•
larisitte, and legislatiog More upon general prinei.-
pies than Sin Oracular invances, as they were now
yin the habit of doing. SOMe of the inconvenience
also arose, frotit -the time-taken up in discussions
upon suhjecis which were not strictly matters of le-
eislatioo, an which neceicarily.currailed the time
allotted for the eonsideretion of Bills.
Th I Earl pf Melee:adverted to a pat ticular
itt-
st.uCe ill the last Session, in which, from the pres-
sure of time,' a Bill of ecesiderebto importmice could
• not be properly Ceesidered,
The Duke of itioevot.e. observed, that the tocon-
volence was not merely fell with respect to Public
BIN, het veteuded alSo to Private Bills.
Lo l AIYCK LA t`4) agreed with the Nahle. Secretary
of Statc, that the increase of legislation Wes to be
sttributed to tineinereasing 'wealth and pioSperity of
the'eoutitry, I.n tl,e year 17tit, for insrartee,•there
~eere only 2g Public-Bills passed during the.whole
SessiOn; whilst in the last three weeks of the last,
Sesi.ion there we'll 75. This, however, was no
reason .they should he sent up at.so late a pe-
riod
.as.uot. to allow time to consider . them,, He
should therefore move lar the appointmept of a
Committee, to inquire with reTeCt to the' 'lumber of
Bals brought up-from the Commons dusinf the last
Session, And the aye respetlively at which they
were brought up.
The .Lots.o CstorceLtott wished for fOrther time
to consider she Motion and
Lord•Aunct.sNn consented to withdraw it for the
pret4rit,

R L, •
Lord AncKl,4t4p, previous to proceeding: to- the
Order of Iht• Day, wished to call the attention of the
'House to some .circutnitances connetlett with the
Spanish question, upon which he thought grime In-
formation ought to be given ; he alluded to Ferrol—
of which ,place, togother with the squadron in the
.port, and a large quantity of artillery, the enemy. had
obtained possession, and had thus acquired a part of
the Spanish naval means; in a position where they
, ,were most dangerons to, the interests of the country;
and this, notwithstanding we had a number of
diplomatic and military agents in Spain, notwith;
stalittng we were communicating with the'Spanish
311111;36 for eight months, and had an army 113
for two months. It was essential that the [louse
siMidd knOw what steps had been taken, with thi.l
NievV of removing tit;-.1 ships at Ferrol front the grasp
of the enemy, into which they had now unfortunate-
Jifallen : he should .therctote move. for Copies or
iaOs of all Com rnunieationl bet wecn the Spanish
Government arid the. Wills") .Agents, .or Military
!dicers in Spain,/espeaing't he Port of Ferrol. '
• .L.Qt'd Igitt.gartye 'Aid it would be necessary to
$40.41410 .to consider the mot lfitt, iti alder to haye
c.pportunitst of looking into the Papers. He had,
hoWrover qo ohjeEtion to state that an application
Vat Made to the Junta by tlie Admiral commanding
off. COtnyina, urging the danger of the enemy's oh-
teltiWg possession of Ferrol; the necessity of remov-
. int the Flvet, and olfering,every assistance for that
' The answer received was, that Ferrol was
111Oct-danger,' that it could defend itself against the,
vOtnY., 0.1;1110
S tips
es*Ore.eosen-
'Wily necsary to its defence, He put it, therefore,
to their Lordships, whether force or violence ought

to have been retorted .to. Probably the Noble
Lord might think it necessary, after hearing this
atittenient, to take further time to consider of his
m.04)114
The-Doke of NORFout had heard, with consider-
, ible;slflrtn, the statement-of the Noble Lord. The
Ships had been conaidered as essential to the'dtience
of the place and .yet Ferrol ilatl surrendered with.
out-resistaneee, - By .ra -
the tue tnot*.fvfargument,
the Fleet at Cadiz might,alsofa4 into the possession
of the enemy. • Surely some meanslnight bolas been
touted of removing the Ships at Ferrol from the power
of the enemy ; 'they might have been sent half
triant.n..d to Minorca, or any other place where !bey
wci.ild have heal out of his reach, Whilst upon his
lags, i* wiPilled to ask the. Noble Secretary, ol State,
wilco it was likely the Treaty with the Spanish Go.
vernment woold be laid before the House ?
Lord Gril:N111.1-Z said, after the wish expressed
by the Ntibit Lord (Mulgrave), his Noble Friend
would prObahlrwithcli..tw his motion, but he trusted
his Noble Friend; on again making it, would enlarge

it, so, as to include all the communications
lad Liken place on this.subjefif. He bad heard 'with
psitt the statement of .the Noble Lord, and could
not bUt thiek that there had been a great want of
-prudence and foresight in the conduit of Ministers,
in hot having taken measures to secure the Fleet at
from the grasp of the enemy. He did Opt
mean to say, that they ought to haVe resorted to
force and violence against an Ally, but he thought,
they had been deficient in measures of friendship
and conciliation, which would have produced a far
different efre6t.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL had always deprecated any
attempt to obtain a partial obje& for eur own advan-
tage, in the assistance given to Spain. It had icon-,
shindy been the policy of his Majesty's Ministers'to
,give a disinterested support to the,Spanish cause,
from which, ultimately, the greater advantage-would
arise, and from which already many advantages had
flowed. He was glad to hear • the Noble, Lord
(Grenville) say, that force and violence ought not
to have been resorted to, and he trusted the Noble
Baron wait prepared to ge further and to saye that
neither threatnor menace ought toll:ire been adopt-
edtowards,our Ally. With resped.to the question,
of the Noble D,uke, he expeaed to have his Ma-
jesty's commandeto-Ny the-Treaty with the Spanish
Govert;ment before the'Hoese on MOnday.•
iii E.el of. Btu:lemon/oast-nee, was disposed to
agree the Noble Earl, that neither force or vio-
lence, nor threat, nor menace,: ought to have been
used.; brit deeply- lamented that, after the statement
made with respect to the Ships being essernial -to rho
defence of Ferrol, that, that place. should have sur-
rendered...x.lolmq ree,istence.
Lord AUCKLAND agreW to withdraw his motion
for the. pregent, in consequence of what had been
said by the Noble Lord (Mulgrave) ; but he would
tint believe that such could have been the conduct of
the Spaniards until the ehn were before the
House. It vees ach no leti4cd hat the loons ex-
isted of removing tin' Fle,,t, ant( the ad Vni:eh
13111letin confessed that the inhabitants of ii*L.rmfi
were all Faiglidi at heart. There NV OS lIINICture.
•:concurrence of cheumstanccei to prove, that the
'Fleet might have been 'rescued from the grasp of the
enemy..
L.,rl G t:y observed, that a' heavy responsibility
rested upon Mitesters with respea to the Spanish
navy. They baa suffered the fuss m Ferrol to fall
into the hod, of the enemy, aed if the plea they
leideet up wits to belllOwed, with what hope could
they look to the other pelts: of Spain ?. tt _was not
only at Cadiz, Ifisted by the Noble Duke, that
there was -a
.Sparti4h fleet, but there, was alsoet Car-
thagpne
.a considerable ;squadron, which had
arrived there from IVlinorca';and the responsitelny
rested with Ministers; that these fleets' should 'not
bc Converted by the enemy into of hos-
aoinst ehis century.
'&4ft 'father cinivetiation' ensiled with Trope& to
britignje forward the motion on a future day, but
leeer'.4l,ecklinid deolined fixing time day, and rather
wished that Ministers woualeekito
into
htfhtAe
edicxtzii)
ctt,t.ts
relating to the subject, snit tly or
'twin its :t:UUICI be made public with Out detriment to
the public service.

' CAMPAIGNAN SPAIN,
Tise f;;;r1 of DA-1111LEY'r03d to tilavefor several:ad.:
ditional Pipers reipe6ting Spain. J-lis- I...ordhip'reati
several;Motions,,the'first ot Whicli was, for th,! pro,.
thicifon of Abe:Letter, of Mr, Frere and Mr. Stuart
to Sir John Moore and Sir DA i;1 Baird, which, he
uuderstuod, would not be of j:4cd to.. The otheii
Were for the production of several dispatertei from
Mr. Secrethry Canning to Mr. Freto,'a diTooih urn
Sir John Moore, dated the 13th of January 11,t., a
I..,etter from Gene Cal Broderick, Which he considered
to be import:int to the' discussion of the' Spanish
question, as it related to the de4eiettey:of cavalry; in
,Spain, a deticienCy the more inelieniable, as vvc had
a force .of twenty-one th(wiatyl cavalry, •eigbte..n-
thousand of which might Itavct been spitted tot Ilia
assistance 'd Spain. Also the, 4diipatch from Lord
Castlereagh tO'Sir flew Dalrymple, dated the 4th of
,Septembfir, with the inetosures,- and the itisirnetions
to Sir Hew Dalrymple, with reepeet to thelormation
of the Regency in Portug,al, truth which bad befoul
been moved for aud refuscd.,.• but which he still
thought evential to. the discussing of the general.
question. He ifid not wish to anticipate' 'that dis 7
cussion ; but lie cold net but from a perusali
off the papers before the, House, that the blame of
our failareS in Spain must
.test with his Majesty's
Ministers,.

The Earl of Livrit mot. adverted to the grounds
on which he had' before objeded to the Predation of
Mr. Fiere'S Letters, they never haVing sheen official»
ly transmitted by Sir John 'Moore,. That this, was
not clone might be easily,accounted for by the Mul-
tiplicity of business which pressed upon that gallant
Officer. He admitted' that the letters were in the
possession td a Member 9f his Majesty's Govern-
ment but still 'the obje6tion remained,' that they
were not strjaly _ctffici4. He -had also objetled
that they had no.operation upon the march of the
army in .Spa n. f-fe onderstood, - however, that
persona nearly :.oattne6led with Sir John Moore,
were extremely ..aniious for their production, and
her would not:now oppose their 'being laid before the
House.. With respect to' the. Letters of Mr. §tivirt,
they, were not in the posiession of his Majesty's Go-
vernment. To the produ6liou of. one of the t:ia-
patches from Mr, arerctny Panning, Blinded to it)
dispatch frem Lord.Costleresigh of the t3th.of De,
cymbal-, he obrktled, as it referfed prospectively to'

future circumstances, and cruld not, without &fie
ment to the public service be produced. With re-
spett to the dispatch frem Sir John Moore,dated the
lath of January, it required consideration, whether
it was expedient to produce it. To the other mo-
,
tiona he had po.objeCtion, with the exception of the
two, which had before been refused, and to which
he must utiu obje6t, as the publication of them would
hbe detrimental to the public service. The letter
from Geee.ral Broderick he had no obje6tion to pro-
' duce, and upon this point, with respect to the ca-
valry, he would take occasion to say, that it would
be found when the question' came to be discussed,
that there was no objection made against the condud
of Ministers less founded or more futile, than that of
, the deficiency of cavelrys
The Earl of ROSSLYN reposed a motion for.
sonic further Papery respecting Communications be-
tween Mr. Prere and the President of Spain.
Lord GRENVILLE thought it necessary to take
notice of an observation made by the Noble Secie-
tary of State, imputing blame to Sir John Moore
for not transmitting the Letters of Mr. Frere.
The' Earl of LIVERPOOL apologised' for interrupt-
ing the Noble Lord, but thought it incumbent on
him to state that 'he did not intend to impute
blame to Sir John Moore.' All he meant to state
was, that in the regular official course of business,
the Letters .were. to have been transmitted either
by Sir John Moore or Mr. Frere. That they
were not transmitted by Sir John Moore might be
accounted for, by the' multiplicity of business in
which he was engaged, and from his not being in the
habit,Of that species of official communication.
Lord .GIIRNVILLR could not allow that the not.
sending these letters should be in any manner charg-
ed:upon the distinguished Officer now no more. It.
was the duty of his Majesty's Minister* Madrid to
transmit officially to the Secretary of State the let-•
tors which he• had officially written to Sir John
Moore., Flu did not mean to impute blame to Mr.
here for net transmitting the letters, but if there
was any blame it ought to attach to 'bellying Mien
nster, and not to the
,memory of.,the illustrious
Commander whom we had enfortunately lost.
The tirst Motion, Jro Mr. Frere'a Letters, was
agreed to.
•On the second Motion, for• the letter from Lord
Castlereagh to -Sir Hew Dalrymple,. of the 4th of
September, with the inclosures, a.ithort conversation,
arose, in which Lord Viscount Sidmouth adverted
. to ivhat had been said when the Motion was for-
plenty made, and Eerl Grey thought it was incum-
; bent on Ministers to state some more precise ground
of nhjection to the production of these Papers than
that of its being detrimental to the public service.
The Earl of Lite:avow. stated in reply, that' the
inclosures to which the Motion' referred, were the
observations of the Portuguese Minister upon the
coedesion of the Armistice. His Majesty's Go-
; verineeet had thought it expedient to transmit them
td Sit .1-rew,Dalrymple, and it -was upon the kiwi.),
pieta of. making public the representation of the
Portuguese Minister, that he fel; a compliaoce
the Noble ,Earl's Motion, injurious to the petit:
.service. -
&111 GREY contended, that if the objeCtiqu of his
Majesty's Government only extended to the incto-
, sures, lie trusted for the atesitie.,cence of his Majes-
ty's Ministers, in the nmenctrnent which he sht.uld
pruposetor the,produetion of either a copy ot ey,ira‘tt
of the le:ter of Lord Castlereagh of this.4th ot Set.)-
lumber,
withoet tileincloseres.
The Earl of ley neeoce answered, 'that the oris
ginal letter,"without Ihe incloseres, could DOI itifuld
the NOble gall:elle information. he. songht, It only
went to rotes what his Majesty's' Ministers were,
',rvAdl: lo.allow, that on the intimation the; the Ars
1111NtiC0,1Vati,concluded, they were much dissatiseed
with that measure. •
The Earl of Bey. LlNCnaaistitee weld not". recen.
cite the ilisSatistiOtion witch tbe N'oble Earl (Liver-
.pool) stated tahave been telt by Mullster,, with ti;e
demonstration of public: reteiciugs weich took' placer
When the iirtii,,iiVet4;ll el the Armistice was receis,.
ece At all evet“,i, he thought it but ju,tice to Sir
Hew Dalrymple, tlir,t the dispatch of the 4th should
be laid before this Home.
Lord GRENVILLE could not conceive how any
man, e=ven loe the w attest ,tench 01 i maginatioe,
could fancy that tlrrru was any possibility of danger
to his Marsty's belS ICU!, from a compliance with
the limited ,ind cv.utlitied aineedeient of his Noble
Friend.
The Earl of levearooe (wned, that it was the
usage to:rest» t to ptiblie rejoicings, when .the coun4
try of an oily ‘‘'as evacuated by the enemy, in con;
si-euence of theoperations of British troops. Iti.ac-
'corclance with thavusage, 'the Tower gt:ll4 were fired
On the communication ot the Conventien of Cintra
being concluded. It del not, however; follow, that
therefore his Majestytegovertnnent had epproved'of
all the articles of that measure.. . He. did believe
that it ,was usual to order similar , demonstrations of
public-rejoicings, 'witch an Island belonging to the
enemy was taken possession of by British -troops,
although very stiong objeetiona were entertained by
; cievernment at Wine,. with resped to the specific
provisions of the capitelatioe.
The question was then put upon the amendment
.01 Earl-Grey, end' strangers were, ordered to with •
drew preparatory to a divisicn ; but. during our ab-
sence, we understand . the motions were negatived
without a divisiOn. •
We also !runes), that Earl Grey fixed upon an
early day, after the. Easter recess, for the diseusbion
of his imended,MotiOti on the condutt of the Spanish
Campaign.
Adjournod until Monday.