The Sun.
London, England, 1822-04-30 00:00:00

WifieN4FigPECTING CATHOLIC PEERS.

Si; J. N.I:WPORT had understood that the Right Hon.,
Gentleman, the Member for' Liverpool, was indisposed, and
therefore supposed, it might be intended to postpone the motion
of which he had giVen notice for to-morrow, respecting the ad-
mission of Catholic Peers into Parliament. He wished to know
of a Right lion. Gentleman opposite, if he could inform him
whether his Right lion. Friend (\ir. Canning) had come to
such a determination ?
Mr. HUSKISSON said it was true that his Right Hon.
Friend had been indisposed, hut he could assure the Right
lion. Baronet that:it was his firmest intention to bring forward
the motion, of which he had given notice, to morrow.
STATE. OF IRELAND. _ _

Sir E. O'BRIEN wished to take this opportunity, the Se-
cretary of State being present, of calling the attention of the
/louse to the State. of Ireland, and to the situation of thf;
county in which he resided.
The SPEAKER remarked, the Hon. Baronet could not,
consistently with the usage of that House, found a speech
like that which he proposed to make on a question pat by one
lion. Member to another.
Mr. PEEL could not pass over the reference which heel been
made to him, and begged to state that the attention of Govern-
ment had already been called to the subject on which the Hon.
Baronet had proposed to speak.
After a few words from Mr. H UT CHI wsox, Sir E.O'BALEY
'again rose to speak.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY suggested that the
Hon. Baronet had better give notice of a motion on which he
could found the statement which he wished to offer.
A short conversation followed, in which the CHANCELLOR.
Of the ExcnEttunt and Mr. WILBERFORCE took part;
and the Marquis of LONDONDERRY having presented a Pe-.

PRICE S EVEN PENCE.

tition—(where it came from could nut be heard in the gallepy.)
Sir E. O'BRIEN again rose, and stated the subject on
which he desired to address the loule to be so important; that
he could not lose one moment in bringing it forward. The
evil to which he alluded pryssed severely on the county with
which he was connected; and in his judgment it extended to
several other counties. Ile was proceeding to open his state-
ment, when_ _ _

,
Mr. BANES submitted to the House, that it was out or
order to offer the statement about to be made on a question
with Which it had no connection.—(Grits of " Go on"—
•" iTcp; go.")
Sir E. O'BRIEN again ("tiered himself to.address the Chair.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the statement
would be better deferred till his Right lion. Friend, the Chief
Secretary for Ireland, should be to hiss place.; He expected he
would be in the House in the course of the evening.
The petition was then read and ord'e-Eed- to lie on the table.
Vie Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was about to
move that the Speaker should leave the Chair,H as he thought.
the discussion on the Agricultural Report could be more con-•
veniehtly taken in a Committee. tie moved that,th, e ordcr of
theday for raking into further consideration the Report of the
Agricultural Committee should be read.
Sir E. O'BRIEN then rose, and expressed a wish to be
lowed to enter on his statement then.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought it would be
better it should be postponed till the Chief Secretary for fre.;
land was in his place.
Mr. BROUGHAM was of opinion that whatever course
would be most for the convenience of the House ought to be
'taken.ne would submit that bringing the state of Ireland
forward in the middle of a debate on another subject would
be more inconvenient than entering upon it now, though the
absence of the Chief Secretary was no doubt an inconvenience
of some importante. Ha wished it to be considered whether it
would not mote Mar the dipected debate and the matter itself,
supposing it ttTie urgent and important, if it were introduced
by way of interruption, and would cause more inconvenience than
could result from its being offered now. The Secretary of
State was present ; he must necessarily be in a great measure
acquainted with the subject, and the absence of tue Chief Se-
cretary was therefore of no importance.

Mr. Secretary PEL had no wish but that the subject should :
be brought forward when the fullest explanation could be of
forded. The Learned Gentleman had conceived that in his -
(Mr. Peel's) department, much on this subject must be known;-
but he must be aware that the details came more under the ob-.
servation of his Right Hon. Friend the Chief Secretary diary
under his. He knew that he had had sonic communication en
the subject that very day, and therefore again submitted that
the better euuise would be to wait till the Chief Secretary was
present.

Sir E. O'BIZIE.N gra; the case Was urgent —ln his county
many thousands of persons were at present unable to obtain
more than one meal a day ; and was not this; he would ask,
a. sufficient ground. for contending that the subject was
One of the first iinportance ? Many of the inhabitants of-
county, were obliged to subsist on a small quantity of-
oatmeal and Water creases throughout the day. Nothing
could poksibly have induced him to come forward on the pre.
sent occasion, had not the subject been of so crying anature
that it could not be delayed. In the month of August last in
the western part of Ireland, an immense quantity of rain fell.
The wet weather continued for twenty days, and when the in,
habitants came to look for that food which should have fur-.
nished them with their ordinary nourishment throughout the
coming year, they found that their whole crop had failed, and
was rotten in the ground. Considerable distress had prevailed,
—but it w,al only very lately that the melancholy situation of a ,
considerable portion of the population of Ireland had been
ascertained. From what had recently transpired, he had not'
the smallest doubt that the wants of the people went so far
beyond their ordinary resources, and beyond all cakulatiun,
that nothing but Parliamentary aid could afford them relief.
The counties of Kerry, Mayo, Roscommon, and others, -in
short nearly the whole of the counties in the provinces of Mun-
ster anti Connaught, suffered under this terrkde calamity. He
called on the House to consider what would be the effect or
such distress in Warwickshire or Lancashire, or other populous
counties in England. He put it to them what must be the re-
sult of such distress pressing upon a million or a million and a
half ofsutfaers-4iist resa which greatly- surpasses that experienced
in 1801, or at any other period within his recollection. He
knew it was a very general feeling that there was plenty of
corn ; but what was plenty of corn where people had no money
to purchase it ? He knew that great exertions had been made
and would be made by the resident Gentry to soften thecalamity..
But what could the Gentry of a county do for 150,000 people
All the rents, all that could be raised in the county; must prove
insufficient to remove the evil. Whatever measure might be
adopted, he feared that thousands must perish from famine, or
front the diseases attendant upon a state of famine, before re-
lief could be atibrded. The sufferers did not conic before the.
Parliament as mendicants, but they called for employment-
Iry which they might be enabled to subsist themselves, Le r
their rates be mortgaged for two or three years--let addi-
tional numbers be employed on the roads or on the public
worksi; but he prayed them not to let thousands ,of men die
from want without one effort to save them. lie trusted it
would not be said that-it was out of their power to mitigate
the evil. The Honourable Gentleman proceeded in the most
earnest manner to impress upon the House and the Govern-
ment the necessity of looking into the subject without,
delay. He felt that if the Country Gentlemen of England com-
plained of being overstocked with grain, if relief were afforded
to Ireland, a market would soon be opened for their super-
abundant produce. He went on to draw a most melancholy
picture of the state of Ireland, which since lie came away had
become such that not a night passed without sonic outrage being
committed, tier the poverty was such that the sutilters were core-
paled to seek by robbery for the means of existence.
farmers were running away, anti the niost fearful desolation -
was witnessed. He hoped the case of the sufferers would niece
with immediate attention, and that those who bad bravtly
fought the battles of England in the hoes of danger would
not be kft to perish from famine.

Mr. W. W. BECHER seconded the recommendation of the
Honourable Baronet, but in a tone so low as to be scarcely
audible in the gallery. The Honourable Gentleman was under-
stood to say, that Unless prompt and effective means of relief
were afforded, the Irish peasant auflabourer must remain to-
tally deprived of food. . • .

Mr.GOULBURN said, that he had not expected the present
discussion, or that the Government of Ireland should be. now
called upon to explain the measures which it intended to adopt
for the relief of the population of the distressed districts of that
country, The Hon. Baronet knew, that if he had not chosen -
the course of coming to Parliament for a grant for that purpose.
it was not for want of disposition to sympathise with, and to
relive the unfortunate sufferers, but because he was unviirring
to bring the subject more forward, and to increase its publicity.
The Government were first bound to examine what extent of
relief was required before they adopted any definite mode cf,
applying it; and according to the lion. Baronet's own calcu-
Litton, the sum of 400,0001. would be necessary for the, county
of Clare alone. Ile would therefore ask the House, if it t]iti ro.it
behove the Government to be cautious how they exposed them_.
selves to similar demands from other districts by any preci-
pitate manner which they might adopt. I❑ the South of
Ireland, there was undoubtedly a great defie:e:icy ir. one
of the crops which formed the principal food of the pour,
namely, that of potatoes. But he had "every reason to
believe, that in many districts the potacoe crops had not
failed, and that in many more the corn crops had been nbiin-
dant. At this very moment, when the price of potatoes was
so extravagant, that of oatmeal was lower, even in the County
of Clare, than it had been for a very considerable period past.
The lion. Baronet had said why not appoint a Commis: inn to
inquire into the state of things; he ought to have atlded that
Mr. Warburton, the Gentleman who waited onthe Lord Litu-
tenant to apply for relief for these districts, was desired to re-
turn by that Noble personage, in order to ascertain more ex-
actly the extent of distress, and the means of the resident
gentry to afford relief, in order that the assistance given by
the Government should be proportionate to their subscription's,
—(Hear, hear !)—He had heard to-day that the Oeutleman i4A
whom he had alluded had returned to the Lord'Lieutetrant with
the required information, so tha.-. Government would now know
how to proceed. He was not aware that the House could.-
reasonably expect any further information from him as to the'
intentions of the Irish Government. It was most lamentable,
that at the present moment the people of Ireland should 'be
afßicted with these visitations, because nothing would operkte
So much to effect the continuance and spread of disturbarces.—.
Would to GOD that all the evils of the country could be remov-
ed ; and he trusted the House would do the Irish Gevernmeritt

the justice to Test satisfied. that no exertion would be spared to
lessen those dreadful effects.—( Hear !)
After a brief explanation from Sir E. O'BRIEN, the Order of
the Day was read, and the House went into the Committee.
AGRICULTURE.—REMISSION' OF TAXATION.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, in pursuance of a
notice which he had given to the House, to call its further at-
tendon to the Report of the Agricultural Committee. Before
entering into the particular measures which he should have
.the honour to propose as growing immediately out of the
•Report, he was sure he should very much disappoint the wishes
of the House, if he did not first apply himself to a considera-
tion of the distress out of which the appointment of -the Com-
mittee had arisen. He should do so for the purpose of giving
his own ideas upon that distress, the purpose of his Majesty's
Ministers with regard to what had already been proposed, and
information upon some further measures which they now in-
tended to propose for, its relief. It was now about ten weeks
since he addressed the House upon the subject, and he was
perfectly free to say, that if since that period he had met with
any thing. which led hini to suppose that he had taken an in-
correct view of the state of the country upon that occasion,
thete was nothing in his composition that would prevent him
:con acknowledging his error. But as far as he could col-
hat the ideas which he entertained noon the first entering
i. 710 the question—he did not mean in detail—but in the gene-
eal outline, he had every reason to believe, on reflection,
.and experience, that they were substantially correct. His
persuasion was., that the general state of the country, with
:he exception of the. Agricultural interests, might be re-
/valet: as prosperous. The manufacturing and commercial
branches continued to increase in their prosperity, as far as
they possessed the means of judging. The state of the revenue,
as far as they could rely upon that test, proved this to be the
404 e. It would be remembered that upon the last quarter
there was an excess, compared with the same quarter in the
preceding year, of between 4 and 500,0001. He was happy to
:say, that in the last three weeks, since the quarter's accounts
were made up, there had been a further increase over the same
period in the last year of 283,001. ; and this, too, at a steady.
rate of 90,0001. per week. He did not mean to press this as a.
tonclusive.proof of the prosperity of the country, but it was uh-
Aonbtedly a great criterion, and one which proved that the people
wet?. not so Universally suffering as some wished them to believe.
At the period to which he alluded, it would be recollected that
he did then declare that the distress of one particular interest
mainly arose from causes not within the reach or control of the
legislature. That those causes were to, be found in the over-pro-
elizetion and consequent increased supply with which the mar-
kets were glutted, ni-td that until such supply should regulate
itielf to the demand, 2.11 attempts to removing the evils must be
-futile and vain. The mode of relief which was held out by some
at that time held now been exposed as perfectly fallacious; and
this upon the highest authorities. He need not particularly al-
lude to the Hon. Member for Portarlington, wnose pamphlet.
every one must have read, and whose authority every one would
be ready to acknowledge.—(Hear.)—lt was clearly proved,
.os he rad all along contended, that the reduction of taxation
-would only give relief, through the consumer, to all other in-
••erests as well as that of agriculture, and that such a measure
„e' relief would not be a remedy for the disease by striking at
.-once at its root, but a inere palliative which could be attended
with no permanent beneficial results. He believed that this
had now become intelligible to the whole country, and that the
eeonviction had been carried home to the farmers themselves,
that even if the whole taxation of the country were remitted,
-it would not relieve the distress which had arisen from visita-
-ticns of a higher nature. At the same time when he urged this
evienr,nhe,did say that it was the duty of the House to look at
the gust:ion in all its bearingse and if they could not do any
-thing which would completely remove the distress, that they
should at least endeavour to ascertain what assistance could
be rendered collaterally to the efforts of this great nation of
capital and enterprise. He did, at Ole same time call the at-.
.tent.,ionpf the House to measures zegarding the circulation, the
• commerce and the credit of the country, and he would now re-
;pet ; the views of Government upon those subjects. Ile would
rage the last, namely, that of advances of capital, first, and see
'low far they may be made available to alleviate the evils which
-pressed upon the country. He stated upon the former oc-
.easion why it was not possible to adopt any system of ad-
vances upon personal security. Ile did say how such advances
might have been made upon parish rates, and that subject had
b -en kept open for consideration. The difficulties, however,
Avllich would have accompanied the plan had been found to
:preponderate, and Government had in consequence relinquish-
cd Another method .of relief had also been discussed in the
Committee and recommended by the Report, namely, that
afvancing capital upon the security of British corn stored
ie Warehouses. When this was first proposed, he had consi-
•

• • •.
:red it as one fleet, was to be avoided, but that particular
.eircumstances might call for its application. Ile thought it
-right to epprize the House, that in the Committee he did
-not v.r.,tc upon this proposition, and that he originated ano-
tZer for advancing the sum upon Exchequer Bills, which
was not adopted by the Committee. In deference to the
.opinion of the Committee, and to what he understood to be the
k.-:n641 wish of the farmers, he had thought it fit to recom-
mend this measure to the House. He had been particularly
aefletenced, la adopting that course, by the information that the
tamers expected considerable relief from it. He must here
-4:rbseree, that it' he thought this measure to be one which was
-saikulated to raise the price of corn, he would not have adopted
'it. Bait it could not be properly described as having that in-
:tendon or tendency. Its effect would be to stop, and remove
that inundation of corn which had (or some time been coming
In upon the market, and to place the buyer and the sel-
ler in their just situations in relation to each other. The'
,consequence, therefore, was not to raise the price of earn,
'ut to facilitate the distribution of the supply arising from the
produce of the year, and to restore the market to its natural
-reed jut state. Neither,could this measure be considered as a
ettreet interference of the Government with the openness of
41;e, market, because persons would be acting upon it entirely as
rnetter of choice. In short, the object was to give the mar-
ket a sound and natural operation, and not an artificial one.—
As there was a strong feeling among the farmers in favour of
this plan, he had become anxious for its adoption, because they
-would otherwise have believed that it might have produced a
:greater share of relief than could in reality result from it.—
"rhis'worild occupy.l,ooo,oool. of capital. There was another
-operation towirtelt he would next call the attention of the
Iloese. And if the Honourable Baronet opposite, who had
that sight made a statement to the House, had waited a little
eager, hewould have found that the subject of it had not es-
caped the attentionaef Government. It was intended to pro-
-pose to Parliamert, that to enable the Lord Lieutenant to •
erfl:Jra relief to the distressed districts; a vote of credit should
be granted similar to that of 1817, to place funds at his Lord-
sniVe disposal for the relief of those objects who most urgently
a..-alied for charity. To this purpose another million of capital
.r(ittl.o be devoted, to be advanced upon public works, so that
great improvements would thereby be carried on, to the great
h.lerat and advantage of the public. It must likewise be ob-

.s(,:w.s.i that this 2000,0001. would get into, and a.ssist the gene-
-"at circulation of the country. Ile before submitted to the
ottac that the Government had negociated with the Bank for
Ake &vance of 4,000,0001. upon Exchequer Bills, at the mode-
7rate-izterest of three per cent. He then stated that the object
of the application of that 4,000,0001. was to benefit the country
pcneral, and not to confer local advantages. Ile trusted
•that the advance of these sums would find its way into the
,dirninution of the loan•upon the Sinking Fund, as well as to
'the assistance of .the circulation and commerce of the country.
the stun they had negociated for with•the Bank would be

Applied to the reli-ef of.the-country as follows : 1,000,0001. for
•assistiig the markets by the stowing of corn; 1,000,0001. for
rt.::•.•e relief of the distressed districts in Ireland; and 2,600,0001.
.for paying off those who dissented from the late arrangements
~.,s,Tred to by the House for reducing the Navy Five per Cents.
llaving stated so much upon the subject of the advances, he
"would now go more particularly upon the contemplated Inca-
" • siircS with regard to the circulation. This brought them to the
,ounsideration of .what was necessary to be done with regard to
notps under five pounds. They must see that they had now
Approached so near the expiration of the existing Acts, that
Parliament must make up its mind as to what course should be
.deilnitively adopted : and either extend the period of their du-
ration, or prepare for the necessary exertions to fill up the cir-
;t•tilation by increasing the metallic currency. For some time
past many Banks had been contracting their circulation consi-
..derably under their re4tural scale ; he did not mean a scale of spe.
e4tlation,,for he hoped that was nit now 'entertained by the ban.
•kei:, but that extent which corresponded with their natural and
&edit. If the Acts were to be allowed to expire, they must
rrerr state what were them intentions, and they must consider
will what would be the effect upon circulation not only of this
-,ete.tntry, but of the world. The House would, he was sure,
..7i4Ffyi with him that the time was corm:: when sotnething must
..I>a dune; a tie was satisfied that it was both expedient and
poatic
.not nlw to withdraw the paper currency •altogether
41.7t.n. One. cirenlation. IL! should, therefore; propose that the
.4).;.tratc:.,sn of the existing:Act should be made coincident with
.fret cf the Bank Charter, namely, to the year 1832. If small
o.eintry notes were withdrawn altogether, let them consider
-what be the contiequence of creatnsg so much dead ca.
• • vtp„t. They were the more called upon to come to this deci-
-si!,ni ',because they cot ld see a disposition in the country
I;felt. demanded it. The people spewed that they pre-
fetrOd• paper, if. they could have paper with security. It was
-intended to propose inserting in the Bill that private bankers.
aiheald not be considered to tail in their credit so long as they
could pA7i,a-Bank of England paper. J. bad been toe anxious

wish and endeavour of the Government to facilitate banking '
operations, as they were sal to affect the pecuniary transactions
of the country. They had consequently thought proper to
enter into a negotiation with the Bank of England, to obtain , '
such a relaxation of its charter as would enable persons to form ,
banking companies with more than six partners, so that they
do not set up within the monopoly of the Bank in London
:and the districts surrounding it, but in what might be called
the more provincial parts of the kingdom. The Bank of Lug-
land was to engage to give up its monopoly beyond the di ;-
Lance of sixty-five miles from London, and any joint stock
connsany would be allowed to assimilate itself to the Banks in
Scotland, to be enabled to sue and to be sued, and to partake of
the nature, not of chartered, but of corporated bodies. 'There
were twenty-six Banks in Scotland, three of which were
chartered, and the others were such as might be established
any where, not within 65 miles of London, if the measure
should he adopted by the House. There was an average num-
ber of between fifty and sivy partners in each of the Banks
in Scotland ; and when it was considered that all the personal
property of theSe individuals was responsible, it. would be
seen that a bulwark was raised in the way of security, winch
would give the greatest confidence in commercial transactions.
He had heard a report of a Scotch Bank breaking the other
day, but lie was not sure of the truth or falsehood of the report.
' —Up to this period, however, there had been no failure of a
banking house in Scotland thr the last hundred years. This
plan, if adopted, would give an indirect and collateral strength
to the paper currency, without preventing private Bankers
, from employing their capital at profit. Having stated every
thing that was necessary upon those heads, he would now pro-
ceed to call the attention of the House to the financial measures
which had been carried into effect, and others which were in con-
' templation. He would endeavour to shew what had arisen out of
that liberal support which Parliament had so wisely given to the
credit of the country. The reduction which the Government
had effected upon . the various estimates of the year amounted
' to '2,000,0001. ; and even with the extraordinary charges of
the year, Parliament had been enabled to effect that which
they had long pledged themselves to, namely, the establish-
ment of a clear surplue of 5,000,0001. Finding themselves in
the possession of this sum, upon mature reflection, thee had
consecrated their former determination and pledge, by placing
the public' faith beyond • suspicion, and raising the credit of
the country to the highest confidence. Ile must here revert
to the subject of the Bank, in order to supply an omission
which he had accidentally made. As a return to the Bank,, in
order to induce it to give up its monopoly, it was proposed to
extend its charter to a period not exceeding ten years beyond
the time specified by the Act. Upon the faith of that great •
operation to which he was alluding, his Right lion. Friend
had effected one of the most gigantic financial operations that
had marked the annals of this country, namely, the conversion
of one species of stock into another species at a much lower
rate of interest, to the extent of 150,000,0001. lie was confi-
dent if at any former period it had been said that in the short
space of shy weeks such a transaction would have been effected,
toe declaration would not have been believed. Nothing tended
to prove the strength of the Government and the resources of
the country so much, and nothing so clearly demonstrated that
they would continue, if not bro:aen down by unsound policy,
as this great and unparalleled operation. By it they had re-
lieved the people from the annual pressure of 1,300,1)001. of
taxes, and facilitated the future reduction of debt, whenever
the state of the funds should allow his Right Hon. Friend to
reduce it with advantage. In fact, after what they had seen
of the ease with which that reduction had been accomplished,
that scarcely a word had been heard of it, except indeed in com-
mendation, it must be henceforward considered as a facile ope--
ration. lie would now call the attention of the house to a mea-
sure which particular circumstances only could warrant, and
for the mention of which he felt that he owed some apology
to his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer).
But it had been his wish that he should mention it in the out-
line, and his Right lion. Friend upon a future occasion—per-
haps on Wednesday or Friday—would move Resolutions which'
embraced the detail. It was necessary for hint to state why
this was the first time, or why the Government had not sub-
mitted it sooner to the House.. From the nature of the mea-
sure, it could only be done at a time when, by the tranquillity
and general prosperity of the country, its propriety was clear
and undoubted. This had been realised by the magnanimity of
Parliament, in resisting suck shocks as had been directed against
it during the present Session, from the natural impatience of
Hon. -Members to remove the distress which pressed upon one
class of their constituents. The principle of the measure had
been for some time under the considerationsof his Right lion.
Friend, but it could not be introduced to the notice of- the
House at an earlier period, because it was impossible to give
their attention to it until that great financial question of the'
reduction of the Five per Cents. had been carried out of the'
market. They could not know what difficulties might inter-
vene, and it was not until they had tranquillized any fear
winch might have been entertained of its effect, that they could
• embarrass the country and Parliament with the details of a
' measure, certainly not a little complicated and difficult • in
its nature.. He certainly did not mean to say that they were
'to look upon the two measures as parallel ; because the other
went directly to cut short a portion of the expenditure of
the country to the amount of 1,300,0001. This would most
assuredly have that result. Its effect would be to place the
liquidation of a large portion of the expenditure of the country,
namely, that which Was called the dead expence, upon a dif-
ferent footing from that on which it had hitherto stood. There-
was at th s present moment an annual charge of 5,000,0(101.
upon the Navy, Army, anti Ordnance, for allowances and pen-
sions, granted for the lives of the parties. This was a debt of
the State annually provided for, and standing in a most incon-
venient relation to the general financial arrangements of the
country. It had nothing to do with the ;xpences of the Go-'
vernmentebut it gave to the public an idea that the expendi-
ture was not twelve or thirteen millions, as it really was, but
' seventeen or eighteen. What his Right Hon. Friend meant to
propose to do with this debt was, instead of including it with
the general provisions for the expenditure, to treat it as the con-
sequence of that war which had given so much glory to the coun-
try, and which, from its consequence, was never likelyto he re-
peated. Upon these grounds they were justified in dealing with
this debt upon a different principle, as a debt sui geneth, and
of adopting regulations with regard to it, dissimilar in their
character from those which governed the management of other
charges. He should now state to the House what the nature
of the debt was in comparison with other periods. It now
amounted to 5,000,0004; whereas in the years to which they
were generally referred for comparisons, and they should find
by the Report of the Finance Committee, at the close of the
American war, that it amounted to no more than 050,0001. The
House would therefore see what had been the growth of
the system; and that it was the duty of the Government to
provide against it for the future. From the nature of the
charges it would be seen, that, for all practical purposes the
• annuities continued for the life of the parties to whom they
had been granted. Now many of those who possessed them
were comparatively young, and according to the tables with
the calculation of annuities, some of them might be expected to
live for seventy years; but these would be a very small num-
ber. The nature of the operation he was about to explain
Would be for that House to make a provision for these pay-
•ments. In doing so, they must in no degree alter the rela-
tion of the individuals receiying them towards Parliament or
the Crown ; he meant the• making them pensioners to auy
great body, or to a foreign power. That would be to alter
their constitutional election to the Crown, and he should be I
the last to recommend any such abridgement of its.. privileges.
Also if all their expences were not brought annually' be-
fore Parliament, that would be an infringement upon the I
provisions of the Constitution. But the object was mere-
• ly to alter the mode front which the resources far meet- '
ing the expences were to arise. The effect of the present
system was to press upon the country with more than fair se-
verity towards the present generation : and if the
.payment
were put upon a sound principle, to extend over a period of a
greater number of years, it would be rendered more equitable
and just. ' The proposition meant to accomplish that object was
by raising the sum required from persons who should contract
to, pay the expense for the valuation of a fixed annuity for 45
years. 'The question Was, what annuity the public should pay
for sttch a contract ? It was proposed not to contract for a
' period beyond the forty-fifth year, because the expense would
then become so trifling as not to be worth attention. It was
not necessary for him to go into .detail, but he would state
something of the general working of the plan. If the House
should think fit to grant the annuity for forty-five years of
from two millions and a half to three millions, the contract
might be had either whole, or if they wished it for each
year, prospectively, as they might find it necessary. If they
paid 2,800,0001. and made the contract with responsible
individuals, the immediate effect would be to save the
country 2,200,0001. and consequently ao enable Parliament to
give the country that extent of relief. The working' of the
' measure would be that for the first sixteen years they should
have the advantage, and after that the Contractors would
be reimbursed. No one would be more anxious than he to ac-
, complish the object so much desired by the Hon. Member for
. , Corfe Castle, of tying up the 5,000;0001.'of Ihe Sinking Fund
.. to accumulate at compound interest until it operated one per
' - cent. in the reduction of the debt, as contemplated by• Mr.
Pitt. With the aid of that relief ich the measure he had
. explained would afford to the finance of the country, if it
were successfully executed, he had no doubt but that great
• object might be effected. Upon his ealculation, if the House
• ,determined that the 5,000,0001. should be so set apart, in ten
' years, at simple interest, it would realise the' contemplated
• maximnin of the Sinking Fund, the one per cent. by arriving
t at the amount of 7,800,0001. This would be the proportion,
t- because they should bse that dine 'have operated the re-
duction of 70,000,0001. 'of nominal debt, namely, from
; 830,000,001. to 730,000,0001. One of the strongest :motive;

which influenced him in recommending the plan was, that it
would enable them to tie up the 5,0011,0001. of Sinking Fund to •
accumulate at compound interest for this purpose. Suppos,
ing, then, that a contract were thus made for an annuity of
2,800,0001. they should immediately place at the disposal of
Parliament 1,001,0001. it was not to be said that that would re-
lieve the distress of theagriculturists. Go forbid that he should
create. so illusory an idea as that they were to expect relief
from such means. lint it would affind general relief through
the cortanmer, the only legitimate means they had of granting
it. I should next come to what they were to do with the two -
minima: two hundred thousand petinds, supposing the plan
to be adopted ; and he Would intreat the House not to look for
such relief but through its adoption ; for in no other manner.
could they proctire it.. Ile called upon them to look at the gra-
tifying fact, that if they did adopt it, even in the present Session,
they might remit that extent of taxation. It was necessary fir
him to explain that there would be some reduction made
from the disposable sum, to meet the • growing dead expence
which would accrue betwixt the present moment and the ex-
piration of the ten years. Ile had looked into this part of the
subject, and as far as it was possible to solve questions so com-
plicated and abstruse in their nature, he had every reason to
think that the sum of 3 or 400,0001. woui completely cover the
dead expence of , that period. He again conjured the House
and the country to recollect that this 'relief could only be ob-
tained through the measure which his Right Hon. Friend would
have the honour to propose. Of course the House would not
call upon his Right lion. Friend to say what taxes he would
propose to remit until the moment at which they were to he
taker, oft; as that would be most unjust and injurious to
commerce, by inducing unfair speculations upon particu-
lar articles. Within the last two years, premising that this
measure were carried into effect, they would then have re- •
mitted to the country the Husbandry Ilorse Tax, 400,0001.,
31alt Tax, 1,500,0001, ; and this further sum of. 1,800,01)01.,
making a total of 3,700,11001. In addition to this, they would be
enabled to tie up the Sinking Fund for ten years. And all
these operations, -pot, calculated upon any increase of our
revenue, which was never going on in so flourishing a condi
tion. This, he thought,. would convince the house and the
country that the Government were not negligent of the duties
which attach to them ; and he could say with the greatest confi-
dence that the observance of those duties would be in no wise
lessened by looking at what they had already accomplished.—
Ile bad now to perform the task which fell to his lot, to offer.
such suggestions for the consideration of the Committee as ap-
peared to grow out of the Report. The first question which
naturally presented itself for attention was, whether this was
.a seasonable time for bringing the subject at all under the con-
sideration of Parliament ? Upon this point even the Commit-
tee themselves had entertained very serious doubts;'and had
therefore not authorised their Chairman to propose any specific
Measure. He did not mean to be understood as wishing that
the present business were in other hands, or as being desi.•
rous to throw from the shoulders of Ministers that responsi-
hility which was inseparable from their situations. Their ob-
ject had been to take the opinions of Hon. Gentlemen compo-
sing the Committee, as to what parts of the subject might be
advantageously treated of in detail. It, therefore, there were
questions of poblle necessity or expediency connected with
the question, he trusted his proposition would not, on that ac-
count, be received with disfavour by the House ; especially as
many hints had been received from the other side of the House,
that Government ought not to auffer `the Report of the Com-
mittee to lie on the Table, without messing some measure upon
it. - Ile had balanced against each other the many difficulties
which overhung the subject, and he confessed he could not see
when there was likely to be a more proper time for its discus-
sion than the present, for it could now he discussed with temper.
The ports were now shut against the aimission of foreign corn ;
and corn, so far from being near to 80s. was ds low as 575. A
Noble Lord opposite had described the Report of the Com-
mittee as paltry and pbwerless ; but he_ (the Marquis) really
believed that Legislation could do nothing whatever in a gene-
ralmanner to protect the grower of British corn. The only
reason, in his opinion,, for changing the law •might be, that
particular circumstances in the present law would work a
public mischief, unless' some alteration should be made for a
temporary purpose. If therefore the present subject could be
viewed as one raising a conaideration on the score of policy, he
certainly never knew a moment in which it could be discussed
with less heat and passion, or so little embarrassed by strong
feelings, as at the present. There would always be strong im-
pressions on the subject, but this was a moment for confidently
appealing.to the good sense of the country. Indeed, it was aba
solutely necessary that the country should be undeceived ; for
never had there been a case like the one tinder consideration so
distorted by false statements and conclusions, He fully ad.
raitted, however, that this-was a favourable moment for
'rifted measure ; and he believed that even during the present
Session some understanding might be come to on the subject.
He thought. a Bill might be passed which would avert the im-
pending calamity, 'as he admitted that the degree of distress
could not be rated lower than that of calamity. It was true that
at present the ports could not be opened unless the home price
was at 80s. ; hut.in case they should by 'some means become
open, and a glut should be occasioned by the importation of
foreign corn, he thought there would be no difference of opt.
Ilion, no, not even between him and the lion. Member for Por-
tarlington, as to the extent of ruin which would overtake the
agricultutiats, not next year alone, but for five, eight, and ten
years to come. Three, four, or five minions of quarters of
cheap corn would find-their way into the country, and would
operate as a night-mare upon the agricultural interest ; would
bear it down most ruinously, and would cause the most gloomy
view of things all over the country. It was true, that if he
were asked his opinion on the chances of the ports being open,
he might be disposed to lay a bet against • their opening this
year, or even the next, and he would take small odds against I
their opening the year after.—(A laugh.)—Nothing but a spe- I
cics of dearth ho was persuaded would cause the ports to open
while the present .excludiag price was continued, Still the
1 louse would not be able to answer to their constituents if
they endangered their interest by neglecting to guard against
even the possibility of such an event. The ports had nearly
opened last year, and Parliament ought not to slumber on
their posts while the Agricultural Interest was in• danger.—
(Hear, hear, hear !)—He was persuaded that a Government
putting their reliance upon the good sense of the country
would find their way to ultimate success. The. substance of
this question lay he thoUght in very narrow limits ; and if there
should appear to be a rational difference of
,opinion in the
details, he would adOpt it rather than risk the visitation to
which he had alluded. When they came to grapple with the
question, he was convinced that the object he had- mentioned
clinld be. accomplished ; and he would shortly. state the grounda
of his opinion, in which he was happy to-say he was confirmed
by that of the persons whom he considered as the most intelli-.
gent class of ,the community ; therefore he did not wish to
speak offensively of any class. The present law was admitted
to be generally defective, sometimes ruinous : it., caused either
monopoly, or unrestrained importation ; and he really thought
the Member for Portarlington would alter his present opinion,
if he gave die subject another and a serious 'consideration.
He (the Marquis) and that Hon. Member were both agreed as
to the necessity ofdoties ; their difference of opinion was merely
upon the quantum ; and here he thought it was scareclypossible
for the difference of opinion to be very great. lie should range
those who agreed in principle on the question of duty into two
classes: one was for duty from 20s. to 40a., and the other was
for duty from,loa. to 20s. ; and he confessed he believed the
latter class, of which he supposed the Hon. Member for Poi=
tarlington was at the head ; and of course,he need not add that
he thought this class :had arrived- at the truth—(a laugh)—and
he apprehended that all who considered the subject would
ultimately be convincea that it was according to that scale
that Parliament should treat the question. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Pottarlington had. stated the day he proposed first at
205., but he afterwards lowered it to 10s. He (the Marquis)
approved of that duty ; but when others called for a duty of
from 20s. to 405., they surely must suppose that there was no
charge whatever but the, duty upon foreign corn. That there
were other heavy charges had been abundantly proved last Ses-
sion. If the corn were imported and carried to an immediate
market, it could not reach the market at a less price than 10s.
or 12s. to the Importer. Then there were charges of insurances
and other incidents which could not be taken at less than from
ss. to 7s. To this must be added that commercial profit, without
which no one would embark his capital,. and which might be
moderately calculated. at 10 per cent. which would be five
shillings more. All this was supposing the market to be
immediate ; but if the corn were warehoused, there must be
an additional allowance of ss. a-year. 'Faking ho*ever 10s.
as the minimum of charge, and allowing ss, for a-year's ware-
housing on the average, and then, he would ask, was it possible
to propose a duty of 40s. a quarter, ?—( H ear, hear !) —Such a
duty could not survive a moment after its own creation, and
would argue that those 'who proposed it were composed of ma-
terials very different he trusted from those of that House.
It would amount to an absolute prohibition, unless corn
were at a famine price. Really, with all deference, be thought
the Members of this ultra-school were not worth arguing with.
• But when the question was looked at in connection with more
moderate duties, the proposed remedy became efficient and
powerful. There was another delusion against which lie pro-
tested, and the exposure of which was, he thought, a serious
duty. It had been confidently said by some that foreign corn
could be delivered here for 355. a quarter. This statement had
not a leg to stand upon. In a few places on the Continent lie
admitted that prices were very low indeed, but the farmers of
• those places must feel a depression as weir as ourselves. • It
was a delusion to hold out these as places aflhrding information
• •as to the general price. lie confidently affirmed that, gepe-
, rally, it was impossible to import at such.* sum. 'He would
just refer to the average price at the Dantzic market. Taking
it at an average on the last seven years, and without allowing
for the clatrgea)f importation, the price was 435. Indeed, to

say that it could be delivered at 335. was nothing less than a
perversion of the fact ; and if it were only to undeceive the
country as to this one. circumstance, he thought it was the duty
of Ministers to bring the subject forward. With the persons
who held this opinion he found it impossible to argue. They
were beyond his sphere. On this subject he believed there had
been no difference of opinion in the
.I.ommittee. The proposi-
tion or the Jlenthcr tier Portarlington-was for a permanent
duty of 205., which he ultimately lowered to 10s. He (the
Marquis) would submit a duty of 125., with an additional .'is.,
for the first three A Right Honourable Friend of
his, however, intended to submit another proposition, which
would be more certain in its nature. Ile (the Marquis)
had thought that a discriminating duty would be advan-
tageous; but that the House would have the advantage
of hearing the able opinion of his Right Honourable Friend,
who would propose a duty of 155., without the reference to the
floating temporary duty of .ss. He was perfectly willing to
take either one or the other of these duties. It had been said
that Parliament would be doing nothing by giving protecting
duties; but these persons imagined that protection was price.
But whether these persons were right or wrong in this in.
stance, they and many others imagined that Parliament had
some -charm by means of which it might relieve the distresses
of the nation. It must be evident that the holders of foreign
corn would not venture to pay the 15s. duty, and go into the
market, unless they had a certainty of selling. The duty
would therefore materially assist in the keeping of this corn
in warehouses ; and the English grower would be protected
against the danger of an influx. Ile was perfectly willing to
take the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend, which was for the
higher duty. lie had authority upon which he could rely
with confidence, for stating that the charge incurred by the im-
porter was not less than 12s. per quarter. This, with the proposed
duty, would amount to •275., to which 2s. were to be added,
as proposed by the Committee. This was within 3s. of the
higher ditty proposed by the Hon. Member for Portarlington ;
so that they were nearer to each other than had been imagined.
The argument, however, in favour of the high. duty, was, that
importation would be inordinate on the opening of the ports ;
but his objection to this was, that a measure like the present
should not be general. The supporters of the high duty looked
to ,future years ; but for his own part he had not the gift of
prophecy. The duty, he conceived, would be a tax upon the
importer rather than. the consumer, though it might 'be plau-
sibly argued that this came round again. Suppose, however,
that the duty and charge amounted to twenty-seven shillings
before the corn reached the English.market, and that the ports
might be opened, if the English price were at 70s. The whole
cost on the foreign corn could not be taken at -less than 435.
besides the duty and charge, so that here would be nothing but
a competition ,Upon equal price, on the chance of profit upon
the small difference between 70s. and the price at which the
foreign grower could bring his corn into the Market ; a differ-
ence which could never be very great. In ordinary years the
duty would amount to an actual prohibition, until the home
price was at 70s. or higher. On a former occasion, it had been
found that 235. ditty operated as an exclusion to foreign corn.
He, for' his own part, should have no fears on account of the
Etiglhh grower, if the ditty were to be fixed at less than 20s.—
Nay, he Was satisfied that under a duty of 20 per cent. not one
quarter of foreign corn would find its way out of the ware-
house. But, at all events, he was convinced that if the house
agreed upon the elements of the question, they would not dis-
agree
.upon minor points ; and he trusted that the principle
would be adopted not merely by a majority, but by a general
concurrence. The measure proposed was a position but of
temporary security, and would be adopted, on the ground that
if' evil should come for the want of it, the ruin would be com-
plete. Having said thus much, he admitted that there were
many stumbling-blocks in the way though he trusted they
would be removed in the course of the discussion.. The Bon.
M ember for Portarlington had been reluctant to fix upon 00s.
for a beginning, but his Right Hon. Friend was not alarmAl
at fixing 70s. - There were the strongest motives for taking
up , the subject now ; as ruin
.was in prospect. In ordi-•
nary times he did not think there would ever. be any dif-
ficulty on the question of duty : or that" there would be any
occasion for. protecting duties at all. The expenses of impor-
tation alone would be a practical difficulty, he had almost said
a permanent duty, in the way of Importation. But, at the
present time, he admitted that an importation price. was ne-
cessary, as otherwise an universal quantity of low priced corn
might find its way into our markets, and it was better not to
try -the experiment. Indeed, if they thought otherwise, they
would not be thought to be able to persuade the country they
.were right. It was better at all events not to hazard the safety
of the country ; and that the Agricultural interest should be
protected against an inundation of foreign corn. He had now
performed the task of laying before the House such con-
siderations as had suggested themselves to him, and growing
out of the Report itself. He confessed that he had, in the
first instance, entertained different views of the subject, but he •
had willingly deferred his opinion to the opinion of others, and
:had sanctioned that of the mass of the Committee. Indeed he
ought, to state, that in general there had been a coincidence of
opinion in the Conimittee. The propositions he had to submit
were in the shape of Resolutions:—the first was to anthOrize
the advance of one million on British corn now warehoused.—
The second was to authorize the grinding of .foreign corn now
warehoused in this country,,with the view to its being after-
wards exported, care being taken that it should not be con-
sumed in this country.—The third was to alter the existing corn
laws, so far as they related to the amount of the importation
duty ; substituting new duties for the old ones. The ports
under the proposed alteration would be opened at eighty shil-
lings,. . would remain open at and above seventy shillings.—
At the present moment, he understood, there was a very
large mass of corn in warehouses, as much he believed as,
900,000 quarters of which between 6 and 700,000 were of
wheat. When the ports should be open, the whole of this
would come into the market without any duty whatever. Par- •
liament had the right as well as the power to impose duties
prospectively—that is to say, upon corn to be imported ; but
it couldnot, without a breach of national fajth,, impose duty
upon the, corn now in warehouse. It was better to let in the
limited quantity, as the influx would then be less without. lie
had now stated every thing necessary for the information of
the House, except the course of proceeding. tie trusted his
Right Hon. Friend would put his views into the shape of Re-
solutions, which would put the House in possession of two sets
of Resolutions, differing not in principle, but merely in dis-
tinc.ion. Ile feared they could not be conveniently discussed
to-night, and he would therefore propose that they should be
read pro forma, printed and distributed among the Members,
and then an early day (Friday perhaps) might be fixed upon.
for the discussion. It was most important that the measures,
if agreed to, should not be delayed, especially that which re-
ferred to, the advance of one million upon the warehoused
English corn. The Noble 31 arqu is then shortly apologised
for having trespassed so much upon the time of the house,
thanked them for the patient hearing they had given him, and
sat down amidst universal cheering, having first moved the
following Resolution:—
" That it is the opinion of this Committee that a sum not ex-
ceeding one million be•granted to his Majesty for the purpose
of the same being advanced under the direction of Commis-
sioners to be appointed for that purpose, in the purchase of corn.
of British growth in British warehouses, when the average price
of the same corn shall not exceed 60s. per quarter."

. _
The question being put,
Mr. WISTERN said, he rose for the purpose of making a
few observations on the very comprehensive speech of the Noble
afrjuis. lie paid the greatest attention to all that had fallen
from bins on this .very important subject. lle was much asto-
nished at perceiving that the Noble Marquis introduced various.
topics not immediately connected with the question of agricul-
tural distress—he..meant those of a financial nature, which he
thought would be more properly introduced in'the elan which
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
meant to submit to the House. His expectation, and the uni-
versal expectation of the Honse, he believed, was, that the Noble
Marquis would have confined himself to the Report of the Com-
mittee. Ile felt much surprised, therefiire, when he introduced
financial matters that were quite irrelevant. This, he must con-
fess, raised some apprehension in his mind that there was no
plan iu contemplation that could •afihrd any thing like Me,'
plate relief He admitted, however,' that the propositions of
the Noble Marquis were not liable to one objection brought
against the Report of the Committee, that of being calculated
merely to enhanoe the price of corn. It was evident that the
operations alluded to by the Noble Lord, before he came to the
main subject, had for their object to increase the circulating
medium of the. country. This was the tendency of his propo-
sed alteration in the law restricting the number of partners in
private Banks. Another observation, 'which implied an alter-
ation in the Act of 1819, had the same tendency. The alter-
ation of the currency not only affected the agriculturist, but
also all the industrious • classes of the country. The profit
on all commerce was reduced by that measure ; and certainly
the futile attempt of the Noble Lord to-night could not mend
materially the condition of the people.---(Here such confusion
prevailed below the Bar, that, the . observations of the Hon.
Member were for a considerable time inaudible.)—The opera-
tion of the Act of 1319 reduced this country to a situation which
no man contemplated ; and he hoped Gentlemen would retrace
their steps with regard to that measure. The establishment of
private banks might be to increase the circulation of money, but
it would lose in credit what it obtained in extension, and that
extepsion not going to the benefit of the distressed agriculturists.
But while this was going -forward, thousands of victims were
daily falling a sacrifice to the plans of the Right Hon. Gentle-
men opposite. The Act of 1819 brought down the price of
'corn below that amount which'would remunerate the farmer.
EVen during the war the price of corn was not more 'than
enough ; but now, reduced as' it was, the farther could not
live and pay 'his expellees. Corn might fluctuate in price—
even now it alight advance, but he contended, by the Act of

1/319, that the money price of corn was only equal to what it
was before the war. Ile admitted the propositions of the -
Noble Lord had better be discussed separetim, but he did not
see that their conjoint operation would relieve the present-dis- -
tresses. The money price of all other commodities diminished
as much es that of corn, in consequence of the Act of 1819.
He had documents to prove that tact, but he would not now
go into any unnecessary. detail. The official value of our ex-
ports was merely comparative—but then the real value was that
alone on which any fair calculation could be founded. In 1814,
the real value of our exports exceeded the numerical in the
proportion of 29 per cent. ; in 1821 it was vice versa exactly.
In 1821 the official exceeded the real value to the amount of
12? et per cent. and that on all descriptions of British manufacture ;
this very fact demanded inquiry. Such-a stetement spoke vo-
lumes as to the distressed,stateeof. agriculture and commerce.
He asked, was it possible to attribute this to any other,
cause than the change -of the value of ,currency ? lie
could not contemplate an answer in the negative. ~ As the
House was unwilling to hear him.—(llear' hear !)—he should
not pursue the subject much further.; bet the. could not
help tracing the present dititress in a great degree to the curtail-
ment of the currency. Though the House was blind to the
.people's distresses, the common sense of the country would, he
hoped, at length open their eyes. This House might be more
insensible to the ruin now impending over the little farmers than
any other society ; but, after all, their situation must be attended
to.—(Bear, hear !)—Since 1819, perhape there might be an in-
crease of trade—an additional number of persons might have
been employed, but still there was a diminUtion of profit in
every brand) of trade. Distress pressed, perhaps, most heavily
on the agriculturists ; but his firm conviction was, it also pressed
on every class of the community. The lion. Member then
implored the House not to suffer themselves to be deluded by
what had fallen from the Noble Martinis.; his plans.. could not
relieve the existing distress, and, therefore, something better
must he done to obviate it. Honourable Gentlemen might go
on and support the ministers, but the day would shortly arrive
when the calamities which oppressed the country must be met
by some sound and effectual remedy.
Mr. RICARDO said, that the plan of the Noble. Lord, how-
ever disguised, was nothing more, nor less than an attack upon
the Sinking Fund. That fund would no longer be five millions,
if a portion of it were to be now taken in.dimmution of the taxes.
He entered his protest against prolonging the Charter of the
Bank ; it was, at the same time,. of the utmost importance to
preserve our public faith and adhere to our public contracts. it.
might be an improvement to create new banking firms, brit he
hoped the Bank Charter would never be renewed. In fact, all
the benefits enjoyed by the Bank from the circulation of a paper
currency ought to have gone to the benefet.ef the public. It
was a mere chimera to imagine that the conduct of the Bank,
could benefit the public. The plan he proposed was a duty or
20s. whereas 508. was forced upon lum by the distresses of the
country. Upon principle such a sum never 'could be eetablished•
He proposed 78s. now, in order tomeet the extreme distress of the
agriculturists, and he therefore.should give them a monopoly of
70s.but no further. The Noble Lord went higher, and he thought
most improperly. The farmer he thought most cruelly used.
When the farmer had a short crop all foreign corn was admitted,
in place of allowing hint that benefit to which othereireonistartee
ought to have entitled him. In point of fact the poor farmer
had no protection, and was left by the Noble Lord's plan in as.
bad a condition as he was before. Protecting duties would be ot
no avail unless there were a drawback to the same amount. TIl;
grower and the importer of corn had opposite interests, an,'
where exportation was not allowed the evils would be increase"'
Ile did not complain of the conduct of landlords, but he sari'
reason why, from their meeting together in a room, they 'haul"
be considered the best judges of what was to be done bet Ween
them and their tenantry and the various classes of mannfae-
,turers. If as they (the landed gentry) said the interest of all
classes wes.the same as theirs, why not have, some gentlemen
front the city on their Committee ? He imputed no blame it°.
them for what they had done, but in fairness they ought-tt'
consider they could not be the best judges when they were
dividually so much interested. With regard to the plai' of
ollowing money at a lower rate of interest than hitherto
iaid, he thought .it was not creditable to the Noble Mr('
ndeed he ought to be ashamed of it, and if he were n°,t
he (Mr. R.) hoped the House would not adopt it. [ Here till
lion. Member read a series of Resolutions, the object of "4),,iee.e.le
we could not gather.]—Before he sat down, he begged
whether, after a month, the corn would be subject to the
or lower duty ? •
rThe
maket Marquis
for the gonfarLteOr_NdaDyOwNoDolEd
guide Rlt
the
said,p price
ee
wseildtieroefsTrt.
to the Sinking Fund. His object was to let it go on at COt?:
pound interest, and not as stated by the Hon. Member WI °
had just spoken. With respect also to the advantage of 3
Loan, he was quite persuaded, without now entering into any
unnecessary detail, that any Honourable Member
.who dub'
appreciated it, must be convinced of its great and permanent
utility. But if the Honourable Member meant to say that
his 125., so far from being a fixed duty, was to be applied, tte),
foreign corn with reference to the price of corn at home, s°
(Lord Londonderry's) 20s. was to be considered with the s 3
reference.
etion•
Mr. RICARDO begged to say one word in explall
.oeer
•The only Sinking Fund that he could recognise was the •
plus Revenue. Njble,
Mr. BROUGHAM considered the arrangement of the.,
'Lord, for taking the debate on a future day, extremely con'ef
nient. At the same time, while he agreed to the proorietYee%
that suggestion, he wished to make one or two observat",
for the purpose of courting explanation on points not cleaore
ly understood. He was desirous of entirely laying
view the whole controversy respecting the distresses of
country. It was said one class had gained all that another ll.att;
lost, but he could not admit that circumstance to be a set tml
distress. He wished, however, on that occasion not to admit-
that one class had gained what another had lost. The rate
wages in manufacturing districts might be better, because t',l.
fanners were starving : But that was a had state of things ;
the first of the Noble Lord's proposals was a substitute for it
project of the -Agricultural Committee, namely, to take ear
upon hire. This was one of the most ridiculous plans ever knowetie
It was raising up the three golden balls, and making the Treas,t_it,,,/,
pawnbrokers. The next project was that of the bankers ; t" ;le
were to have permission to circulate small notes for a eer'ea"l
number of
,years. There were many disadvantages attaeneitit-
to this project ; war was one of the evils, but he should nt
mention war. Many thought there. was no danger of vtie;e
' whilst the' country was bound in a recognizance of 800,00* the
not to break the peace. The compensation is to be given t„°,,teie
Bank Was. excessive.' Was it reasonable to prolong the P.
r,,311,
Charter for ten years for the mere consent not to issue su're,
notes ? He was afraid the plan would encourage a it oil'
her of speculating Banks who would decoy customers, then
drive a trade injurious to the country. Mr. Brougham
_ere
objected to the annuity plan. It was most extraordlan'ely
that men could go on for sixteen years paying Could
and taking no benefit for so many years. They fay,
.not do it for nothing. They would make the public
smartly. He did not believe much could be gained by the P the
mitt. le.
It was drawing upon the Sinking Fund, and millsin,gibee
country pay for a tontine. No Man was more disposet' tee-
himself to allow the value of a Sinking Fund upon sound Po,AS
cijiles. To a nation which had a debt of 800,000,0001. it ,hr
advantageous. The nation ought, however, to have a
surplus. They ought to go on with the • Sinking Fond "„00
the income of the people was improved, and then call_,,Vity.
them to pay a portion of the debt adequate to their au_„..
.4
He should have occasion perhaps to move a string of Resueilit.•
tions on the subject, but he could not conclude without sal,; of
the House would not do its duty, if they parted at the
the Session without examining strictly the resources
might be obtained from rigid parsimony.
net'
• Mr. HUSKISSON agreed with the Hon. and flea.nitr
Member who had last spoken, in thinking that the real
t
ty-
Fund was no other than the Surplus Revenue. e con
weitt.
He the
lilted the Committee on having, at the commencement who
Session rejected the suggestion of the Learned Member.' Nihon
he had called upon them to apply 3,000,0001. to the dinil,n.,kiege
of taxes, and which would have left them without a Sink
Fund. But by the present plan., Government was em.Zking
act up to the very letter of the Act of 1792, to maintain a -
s, the
Fund of 5,000,0001., and to remit, if not this year, at gems
beginning of the next, the public burthen to a greater
cov,.ri)
than the Learned Gentleman had sought to accomplieh ereitien
the the destruction of the Sinking Fund. The Learned Gen"the
had observed upon that part of the plan -which relatedZ
iii-
extension of the period allowed to the country honks for te do
titibeeLsel, °f
ciliation of small notes, and also to that part which tc
away with the monopoly enjoyed by the Bank of Enge. nue-
being composed of more than six members. Ile (Cr,l_Esse,:
kisson) felt surprised that the Honourable Member
,r,o;
circa
could have contended that they could not continue
htne
f°r.
trie
lation of notes under
cashe pounds without repealing t
the resumption o f
made
to
the Committee might recollect that he (Mr. 11.)
Inialvag n°ll.
that Bill passed, proposed the ,very measure which that it
e
about to be adopted. Let it not then be suPPos; Act 0'
was not the intention of Government to abide by ‘ of the
1819. Ile was so far from thinking that this extension
tea sterile:
epoolwaettrono!
tictaotunhtrey
ratherbanks wsuouplpdoseeeldve
irtisewotonhint inordinate
e look to
dency directly the reverse. Let the Committet
n resumptiont
aAycJI.
hanneenao
and see- if in that country the banks had not
ofbrgd
.Scotland, where the plan had long been acted
icecaps
acted as a check upon each other. On the point
e_cites ha
doubted ahem.•
been so extensive as was generally believed. He
co. soda
'a single prosecution had for many years taken la nteasu.rs,
he did not believe th.at the circulation of country banks
At all events it was not a sufficient objection against
hout sons" evil
of great national importance to say,that it was wit

1