The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-23 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING,_ FEBRUARY 23, 1849.:

doctrine of transubstantiaticn, were exempt from all
penalties against non-conformity in the ecclesiastical
courts, and also from what was called the Conventicle
and Five-mile Acts. The operation of this Act, how-
ever, was limited. It excluded Roman Catholics, and
persons who did not believe in the doctrine of the Holy
Trinity. These exceptions were from time to time
gradually abolished, and the benefits of the Toleration
Act extended to Unitarians, and in the fullest extent to
Roman Catholics, and also to persons in holy orders, or
pretended holy orders, who were not called upon to sign
a declaration of belief in the Thirty-nine Articles of
the Church, but merely that they were Protestant Dis-
senters, and believed in the Holy Scriptures. This
was the state of the law with which he proposed
to deal. The Court of Queen's Bench had
lately decided that though a minister dissenting from
the Church of England was exempt from penalties
under the common law, he was still liable to be proceeded
against in the Ecclesiastical Courts for a breach of disci-
pline.. He could be fined 251. a month for not attending
his parish church, if residing within five miles, 40/., he
believed under the Conventicle Act. Other Dissenting
ministers, who had never been connected with the
Church, were exempt from all these penalties, but they
were still held binding on those who had once been cler-
gymen of that Church; and the Court held that such
persons could not by any act of their own release than••
selves from these burdens. A person in such a situation
was in fact a serf, a slave for life.—(Hear.) He be-
lieved that the doctrine was even pushed to the ex-
treme, that deposition itself did not relieve the person
so deposed from these burdens.—(Hear, hear.) They
were of course all bound to bow to the decisions
of the Court of Queen's Bench as to what the law
really was, but he thought the House would agree
with him that it involved great hardship, and he con-
tended that such a construction of it was not in ac-
cordance with the intentions of the framers of the
Toleration Act themselves. In fact it reimposed the
very grievances of which they complained. He would
merely mention the case of Richard Baxter, a name
which would be respected as long as learning, piety, and
worth were reverenced.—(Hear.) Richard Baxter was
episcopally ordained, and could it be believed that an Act
framed for the relief of Nonconformists would be framed
in such a manner as to exclude him from its benefits?
He thought the House would be prepared to give relief
from the burdens which the Court of Queen's Bench de-
cided were imposed by law. This was not a mere
theoretical question, but a practical ono, and he
needed only to refer to the case recently decided in
the Queen's Bench to justify him in asking the House
at once to resolve itself into a Committee on tbe•law.
For all that the House knew, the person affected by
that decision is now in prison; it not, he was liable
:o be put there at any moment, and might remain
there, as far as the law was concerned, for the re-
mainder of his life. He was not going to enter into the
details of the particular case which had directed atten-
tion to this matter (that of the Bishop of Exeter and
Mr. Shore). He would merely say, with reference to the
conduct of the Bishop in that case, that he thanked God
there had been few such bishops in this country since
the Revolution—(Hear, hear)—and he believed that if
they had many such bishops the state of religion in this
country would have been very different indeed to what
it now was.—(Hear, hear.) There was no man to whom
this country was so deeply indebted as John Wesley,
yet he was episcopally ordained; so was Whitefield; and
if the bishops of that day had entertained the same views
as those which had been acted upon in the case he had
referred to, both Wesley and Whitefield would have been
shut up in prison all their days, instead of labouring as
they did in the diffusion of religious knowledge and sen-
timents among the people.—(Hear, hear.) In order
to show the House, however, that he was not
alone in the view he took of this question, he might
state that he had the approval of no less a person
than the Archbishop of Canterbury, whose authority was
high, not only on account of his position in the Church,
but from his eminent virtues and his piety as a man. The
Archbishop of Canterbury said he entirely concurred with
his (Mr. Bouverie's) opinions, that there ought to be
some amendment in the Toleration Act.—(Hear, hear.)
He proposed that any clergyman who dissented from the
Established Church, should, in addition to the oath he
was required to take as a Dissenting minister to escape
these penalties, likewise make a declaration of dissent
from the Established Church. He would require that
that declaration should be registered in compliance with
the provisions of the Toleration Act, and that it should
be forwarded to the Bishop of the diocese, and having
been registered by him, that the person so departing
from the Church, should be relieved of all the burdens
which attached to him while in connexion with it, and
at the same time, as was but just, that he should lose all
claims and privileges which he possessed while a clergy.
man of the Church.—(Hear, hear.) In short, he merely
wished to put a person in the simple state which he
would have occupied if he had never been a clergyman
at all.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM—WiII you let him hare a
seat iu the House of Commons?

Mr. BOUVERIE—I shall propose to do so.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member concluded by moving for the Com-
mittee.

Mr. GLADSTONE regretted that the Hon. Member,
in moving his resolution, had thought fit to speak in
terms of grave censure of the conduct of a Bishop of the
Church in the case to which he referred. The Hon.
Member might be better informed on the subject than
he was, and might, for all he knew, have authority for
the statement; but certainly, as far as he was informed,
he did not think the Hon. Member had given a just
view of the matter. He understood that the Bishop of
Exeter had offered to Mr. Shore to relieve him from all
penalties as far as he (the Bishop)' was concerned.
Whether it was Mr. Shore's refusal to accept the condi-
tions, or the defect of the law, which prevented the offer
from being carried out, he knew not. With respect to the
resolution, he heartily concurred in the object in view—
and if at any future stage there should arise any difficul-
ties of detail which prevented its attainment, he should
feel both surprised and grieved.—(Hear, hear.) The
principle of the measure was a simple one—to release a
man from burdens imposed upon him while in a certain
situation, when he ceased to fill that situation, and at
the same time to deprive him of all privileges enjoyed
while filling it.—(Hear, hear.) There was no theological
question raised by the measure. He hoped that in Com-
mittee it would not be necessary to dwell upon details;
and all he would further say was, that he thanked the
Hon. Member for the introduction of the subject, which
would, he hoped and believed, effect a valuable improve-
ment in the law.

The motion was then agreed to, and the Speaker
hating left the Chair, the House went into Committee,
and the resolution that a Bill be brought in having been
agreed to, the House again resumed.
Mr. BERNAL reported the same, and a Bill was or-
dered to be brought in.

after the long experience of the Hon. Member, he should
that night have contented himself with bringing forward
an abstract proposition, the truth of a hich no man in his
senses could think of doubting, instead of laying a Bill
upon their table for the purpose of practically carrying
out the real object which ho had in view, and containing
provisions by which such a measure could be made to
work. Reviewing the speech of the Honourable
Member, it would be impossible to deny the
likeness of the picture which he had drawn of the state
of Ireland, the distress and the embarrassment of the
landlord, as well as the condition of pauperism to which
the population werereduced. That the Honourable Mem-
ber represented to be the condition of the groat mass of
the country, and with that condition he contrasted the
prosperity of the county of Down—a prosperity which
the Hon. Member did not hesitate to say was owing al-
together to the tenure by which land was held in that
county, and that that prosperity was in a most especial
degree owing to his favourite tenant right. Now,
really, notwithstanding the strong preference which the
lion. Gentleman entertained for this tenant right, it
tvould not be very difficult to show that the difference
between the two parts of the country on which sa much
stress had been laid was not altogether owing to the dif-
ference of tenure subsisting in the one province as com-
p ired with that prevailing in the other. lie would take
the case of Donegal. There was no part of Ireland
whatever in which there was more of what was called
tenant right than in that county. He, there-
fore, did not think it was a fair deduction to say
that the difference between Ulster and Connaught was
altogether owing to the existence of tenant right in the
one province and its non-existence in the other. He
believed it could easily be shown that the rundale was
one of the causes of the marked difference between the
two districts, and then, again, the system of joint tenancy,
might be considered another. But, in making these ob-
servations, he wished it to be understood most distinctly
that he did not deny the geceral accuracy of the descrip-
tion given by the lion. Mover. His Hon. Friend alluded
to the expediency of adopting a law somewhat like what
in Scotland was called Montgomery's Act, and he (Sir
W. Somerville) the more particularly adverted to this,
as it gave him an opportunity of stating that Mont-
gomery's Act had been most carefully considered by
the commission which sat under the presidency of Lord
Devon, and it was the deliberate opinion of that com-
mission, that neither that Act, nor the machinery by
which it was worked, could in any respect be rendered
applicable to Ireland. He was, however, far from say-
ing that some measure of the kind might not be advan-
tageously introduced; but what he meant to show was,
that there was extreme difficulty in dealing with subjects
of this nature. His lion. Friend next alluded to the
Bill of last session, which had been introduced by him-
self, aided by one or two other Members of that House,
the chief object of which measure was to enable proprie-
tors in fee to charge the whole estate with sums of money
to be borrowed for the purpose of improving those
estates, and the machinery for carrying that object into
effect was to have been the Board of Works. Let them
only imagine for a moment every landed proprietor in
Ireland using the machinery of the Board of Works.
That Board must in all cases examine the nature
and practicability of the projected improvements
before issuing their fiat. The board must in all
cases have made themselves responsible for the whole
of the outlay. Now, he need hardly suggest that this
would have had the effect of involving them in disputes
with every landed proprietor in Ireland. And how
much worse would matters have been if the more en-
larged ideas of his Hon. Friend had been carried into
effect? He was sure that his Hon. Friend would soon
have found such schemes to be impracticable. It was to
be hoped, however, that the objects which his Hon.
Friend had in 'view might be differently attained; at all
events he felt assured that little good could be accom-
plished by throwing upon Government boards that
which the proprietors of lands ought to do for themselves.
The next subject•to which his Hon. Friend directed the
attention of the House was the necessity of providing
some means for remunerating tenants who at their own
expense had improved their holdings. It could not fail
to be in the recollection of the House that measures on

that subject had been proposed by Lord Stanley acd by
the Noble Lord the Member for the Falkirk district of
burghs; there was also his own measure on the same
subject; and yet, atter all, those various measures
afforded only additional proofs of the difficulties by
which these subjects were surrounded. Although he
estimated those difficulties very highly, he could not say
that he was at all deterred from engaging with those
subjects; and he hoped that even early in the present
session be should be enabled to introduce to the flouse
a measure for the purpose of securing to improving te-
nants the fruits of their industry, and of the capital
which they might expend. It would be recollected by
Hon. Members, that in the course of the last year a
measure had been brought forward upon this subject—
it had been submitted to a Committee, and several
useful suggestions had been made; he hoped, there-
fore, that the Bill to be proposed this year would be a
decided improvement upon the former measure. In the
course of the speech which the House had that evening
heard from his Hon. Friend they had been told that the
state of uncertainty in which the people of Ireland were
placed paralyzed every effort of industry and enterprise.
He confessed that he could not assent to that statement,
for he did not at all see how voluntary arrangements
were to be prevented by any such means. His Hon.
Friend went on to say that it was the duty of Parlia-
ment to come in and define the tenant right of the north
at the same time his Hon. Friend could not but admit
the difficulty of legalizing any such right. For his
part, he never distinctly understood what it was.
Mr. Lamont (we believe) had written a pamphlet on
the subject, and had made statements which pretty
clearly showed that it would be almost impos-
hie to reduce any account of it to a legal definition.
There wero several other subjects mentioned by his Hon.
Friend, but he hardly knew whether it would be neces-
sary for him to touch upon them. Two of those subjects
were the reclamation of waste lands and the great work
of arterial draining. They were both very important
subjects, but he must be permitted to say that the ques-
tion whether waste lands were to be improved on a large
scale by the Government was a question not now very
warmly entertained in Ireland, He hardly knew any
question that of late years had lost so much ground as
that of extensive reclamation of land in Ireland by the
Government. No doubt the industry of the country
was not sufficiently tasked. Every one knew that the
soil of Ireland was capable of maintaining a much more
numerous population than at present lived upon that
soil, but those statements might be perfectly true with-
out its necessarily following that all the recommenda-
tions of his Hon. Friend should be carried into effect.
Having made these few observations upon the speech of
his Hon. Friend he should now say a word or two with
respect to the measures which he himself intended to in-
troduce. He trusted that he should be able to propose
to the House a Bill to enable holders of renewable
leases to convert their holdings into tenacies in fee.
This measure he hoped to bring in early in the present
session. He also proposed to bring in a Bill for altering
the law relating to grand juries, land, having said thus
much, he hoped the House would be content, without
adopting any such resolution as. his Hon. Friend had
proposed.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that the House
would not adopt anything so undefined till they could
have an opportunity of seeing what the Government in-
tended to do.—(Hear, hear.)

.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY expressed a hope that the mea-
sures promised by the Right lion. Baronet would be in-
troduced as soon as possible. He professed himself con-
tent with the intimations which they had received from
the Government.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL agreed that they should wait to
see what the Government intended to do. If the Hon.
Gentleman pressed his motion to a division he (Mr.
O'Connell) would vote for it; bat he recommended his
Hon. Friend to withdraw it, on the understanding that
the Ministry were pledged to bring in a Bill during the
present session to amend the laws affecting landlords and
tenant-.

Lord BERNARD advised the Hon. Member for Roch-
dale to withdraw his resolution, for he believed that if it
were adopted by the House hopes would be excited in
Ireland which could never be realised. He considered
that the wisest course Parliament could take
would be to abstain from legislating with regard
to landlord and tenant ; for he believed that, in
the case of the larger tenants, a mutual good
feeling between themselves and their landlords would
ultimately prevail, even where it might not already
exist; and with regard to the smaller tenants, whose
holdings were not large enough to enable them to support
their families, to give them a permanent tenure would be
to perpetuate misery and distress in Ireland. lie would
recommend the Government to accede to a suggestion
which had recently been made to the Lord-Lieutenant,
and which had been made to that House some time since
by the late Lord George Bentinck—to afford assistance
to the railway companies in Ireland; for by so doing
they would afford employment to the people, and would
aid in developing the resources of the country. The
Secretary for Ireland had alluded to the subject of arte-
rial drainage. All that was required to carry out that
system was, that funds should be provided which, under
the present Act of Parliament, it was found difficult to
obtain. If the Government would only lend the money
upon undoubted 'securit!, the works which had
been already projected might be instantly com-
menced. If encouragement was given to the
establishment of railway communication in Ireland,
the fisheries of that country might be made most
valuable and productive. He wished to call the
attention of the House and the Government to the fact,
that although a large sum had been voted by Parliament
some time since fur the establishment and improvement
of piers and harbours, nearly two years had elapsed be-
fore any steps were taken for erecting piers in those
places where they were most needed. With regard to
the poor-laws he should be glad if the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell) would explain whether he intended to
follow out the report of the Boundary Commission, and
to form new unions, leaving the temporary workhouses
to be occupied in those unions until funds were obtained
to build new houses, or whether the auxiliary work-
houses were to be taken into the present unions? He
also wished to know whether the Noble Lord concurred
with the Boundary Commissioners with respect to the
electoral divisions.—(Hear, hear.) He would recommend
the Government to extend the objects of the Land Im-
provement Act, and to adopt measures for instructing
the people in the science of agriculture. The position of
the great numbers of children in the poor-houses of Ire-
land was most distressing; and he would suggest that
steps should be taken for sending them to the colonies.
It was utterly impossible in Ireland to give out-door re-
lief to the aged and infirm. In many unions, when there
was a prospect of out-door relief being given, suddenly,
as if the whole population had been at once paralyzed,
those who the day before were well and healthy become
claimants for relief. He urged the Government to state to
the House what course they intended to pursue, in order
that the doubt and uncertainty which hung over every
part of Ireland might as soon as possible be removed.
Mr. REYNOLDS thanked the Hon. Member for
Rochdale for having originated the present discussion.
With respect to the cultivatiou of waste lands, he re-

gretted to hear from the Right Hon. the Secretary for
Ireland, that there was something like apathy on that
question in Ireland. He believed that that was the case;
but it was easily accounted for, as the destruction of the
potato crop, the famine and consequent calamities, had,
to a great degree, depreciated the worth of the most
valuable land. In that country, containing twenty mil-
lion of statute acres, competent authorities had declared
that there was close upon seven millions uncultivated,
and of the latter five millions were capable of reclama-
tion. Notwithstanding that this was the state of the
case, the able-bodied were being forced by tyrannical
and unnatural means out of the country, in order that
they might go and cultivate the wastes in North Ame-
rica. The Noble Lord (Bernard) called that a compre-
hensive measure.
Lord BERNARD—I said nothing about emigration
being a comprehensive measure.
Mr. REYNOLDS thought the Noble Lord had done
so, but at any rate certain members of his school held
that opinion. Connected with this subject he would
mention a remarkaole fact which had been communicated
to him within the last forty-eight hours by the Hon.
Member for South L incashire (Mr. Browne), who stated
that his house in inerica had drawn on his house in Li-
verpool bills from Irish emigrants in favour of their
friends to induce them to emigrate. These bills
amounted in number-to 8,000, and were for sums vary-
ing from IL to 301., giving an aggregate sum of 51,0001.
That might be called a comprehensive measure, but he
called it opening the arteries of the prosperity of Ireland
and bleeding the country to death. With respect to the
Committee on the Irish Poor-law, he entertained great
hopes from it. He was totally opposed to disturbing
the principle of that law. He looked on it as the poor
man's charter, though he believed that it had sometimes
turned out to be the rich man's warrant, assisting him in
his tyrannical measures for depopulating the country.
But he believed that such arrangements were likely to
be made in the poor-law and its details as would
punish the landlord for carrying out his depopulating
system.
Mr. MONSELL was very glad to hear the promise
given by the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland with re-
spe..it to the three Bills he proposed to introduce. Ho
was quite sure that if the Right Hon. Gentleman intro-
duced the Bill on the subject of landlord and tenant, as
amended last year. with some few alterations, he would
confer a great benefit on Ireland, and induce tenants to
expend capital on their lands, Nevertheless, he (Mr.
Monsell) must express his regret that, with respect to
one Bill of almost paramOunt importance, the Right. Hon.
Gentleman had said nothing. He alluded to a measure
in reference to the mitnagement of estates under the
Court of Chancery.

Mr. IL FOX dissented from the proposition of the
lion. Mover of the present proposition with respect to
undertaking the cultivation of waste lands, and thought
that the application of fre3-trade principles in respect to
Ireland had rendered it impossible to cultivate those
lands with any success.

Mr. CRAWFORD said he should not press his motion
to a division if the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland
would intimate that there was. a prospect of the .mea-
sures he had referred to being introduced within a rea-
sonable time.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE was understood to say that
two of them, referring to renewable leaseholds and the
improvements upon land, would be introduced almost
immediately in the House of Lords.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD, under these circumstances,
withdrew his motion.

DUCHIES OF CORNWALL AND LANCASTER.
Mr. TRELAWNY rose to move for a " Select Com-
mittee to inquire to what extent the public are entitled to
claim an interest, present or prospective, in the manage-
ment of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, respecting
which returns are annually presented to the House, and
whether there is not reason to hope from those returns, as
well as other circumstances, that an improvement in the
management of those estates in particular, by the sup-
pression of antiquated and superfluous offices, and the
diminution of the salaries of officials, would greatly in-
crease the joint net income of the two Duchies." The
Hon. Member explained that when he last introduced
the subject, he was met by the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government with two objections, the first of
which was that he (Mr. Trelawny) had admitted that
those properties were much better managed now than
they were formerly. Now that was perfectly true, but
it did not follow from that that they could not be much
better managed still ; indeed, the slightest in-
vestigation of the recent returns to Parliament
on the subject of their revenues, would convince
any one that a large saving might still be made
in the incomes of these Duchies. The other objection
was that he (Mr. Trelawny) proposed to sell those
Duchies, and apply the proceeds to the public ser-
vice. Now, if it could be shown that the ancestor of
the proprietor of any estate within the Duchies had paid
threepence five hundred years ago to the Duchies, and
that his land became liable in consequence, to be claimed

by the Duchies, he had no doubt thit it would appear to
the House to be a fit subject for inquiry. The Hon.
Member then read a series of returns for 1846, setting
out the expenditure of the Duchy, which amounted in
the gross to 20,816!. 17s. 6d., incurred in getting a sum
of little more than 50,000!., which appeared to be the
income. The returns of 1847 appeared to be about the
same. In these times of financial reform, he thought h
was the duty of the House to look narrowly into those
matters; and he could assure the House, if it granted
the Committee, that he would make out such a case of
oppression and mismanagement as would in every re-
spect justify the inquiry.
The motion having been seconded,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had on a former oc-
casion stated reasons why the motion of the Hon. Gen-
tleman ought not to be agreed to. With regard to the
revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall, they were the pro-
perty of the Prince of Wales, and the manner in which
the affairs of that Duchy were managed in former times
was different from the present. It appeared as if the
Hon. Gentleman wished to appropriate the revenues of
the Duchy, in great part, to the public service. Now
that was an appropriation to which the House ought not
to assent; neither, in his opinion, would the House. The
lion. Gentleman stated that there was great oppression
and bad management in the collection of those
revenues ; but he was of opinion that the Honour-
able Member was under a misapprehension. The
Honourable Gentleman had complained of the expendi-
ture incurred in the collection of the revenues. Now, he
(Lord John Russell) believed that many large pro-
prietors in this country gave as much, if not more, to
their collectors.—(Hear, hear.) He knew, in his own
family, some of the agents receive as much as 2,000/. a
year, for their services in that way. By the law the pro-
perty of the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall was

in the Crown, and according to the practice and usage of
the Parliament, it could not be taken from the Crown;
and such being the case, both by law and fact, he hoped
the House would not agree to the motion.
Mr. P. CAREW felt that great thanks were due to
the Hon. Member for Tavistock for having brought for-
ward this motion. The system complained of ought not
in his opinion, to be longer tolerated; and he hoped th,
House would grant the Committee, and pledged himself
should it, that they would show such a case of intolerable
grievances and oppression as would justify the inquiry.
Mr. HUME must say the Noble Lord had not taken
the proper view of the Subject, and in comparing the
revenues in question to the Duke of Bedford's property,
he should recollect that those revenues wore public pro-
perty. The revenues of the Duchy of Lancaster were
40,0001. by the last returns, including 7,000/. surplus
balance of a former account. That left 33,000/. actual
revenue in rents and sales for the year, and 12,0001. out
of the 33,0001. were all that came into her Majesty, al]
the rest was waste. The public had a right to know
whether the property was properly managed. He main-
tained it was not; and he would ask any gentleman
in that House whether he would say, if he only got
12,0001. out of 33,0001., that his property was well ma-
naged? The Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the
motion had shown that a great deal of waste was in-
curred in " sixpences." It would, he contended, be for
the interest of the Prince Royal and the Crown that the
Committee should be granted, for it would lead to a
better management of the property in those revenues.
The Hon. Member then directed attention to the rates
levied on metals, and said that the country gentlemen in
Cornwall had induoed the Parliament to take off th,-
royalty so levied to the amount of 15,000/. or 16,000/
and to put it on the Consolidated Fund, in order to re-
lieve themselves from payment of it. With respect to
the pensions derived from those Duchies, he saw that
Chancellor " John" Lord Campbell, received 2,000/.
He did not know whether he did anything for that pen-
sion; perhaps he did—oh, yes, he kept "the seals."—
(Laughter.) Then, again, he saw the name of Edward
George Anson, as " Axe-bearer" to the Prince of
Wales, 30&l.; while the Forester received only 35/. for
keeping the orest. He should like to know what Mr.
Edward George Anion did ? The Hon. Member con-
cluded by saying he should support the motion.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON thought that inquiry into
the management of the Crowd lands was much called
for. Those lands were vested in the Crown by Parlia-
ment, it was the duty of Parliament to see that they
were properly managed, and he believed that her Ma-
jesty's Government ought to allow some inquiry, which
would be for the advantage of the Crown.
Mr. RICARDO was of opinion that if it were only
for leading to the adoption of a better system in the
working of mines, that the inquiry asked for ought not
to be opposed. Under the present system, the most
serious dilapidations were caused by mining under towns,
and instances of great oppression were the consequence.
In'his own place—Stoke-upon-Trent—they were so un-
dermining the place that they were actually breaking
down the town; and recently 30 or 40 houses had fallen
from that cause in the Duchy of Lancaster. If, then, it
was only to put a stop to such a system and state of
things, the House ought not to refuse the inquiry.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that those cases of destruc-
tion of property, of which the Hon. Member for Stoke
complained, did not at all relate to the property of the
Crown. They were cases of private property, in which
individuals were exploring for ore; and the damage done
had been made subject of inquiry
.before a court of law.
He hoped the House would look rightly at the question,
and not consent to the inquiry.
The Earl of LINCOLN, as associated with the
Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, might be expected
to say a few words on the subject. His object would be
to show that the Hon. Gentleman had no right to deal
with the Crown properties, in England, in the way sug-
gested. If they so dealt with these properties, they
would upturn many of the rights of private property of
this country. He would deal with the Duchies of Corn-
wall first. How stood this Duchy? It was granted by
Edward the Third to the Black Prince, by charter,
which was confirmed by Act of Parliament, and by this
Act the Duchy was vested in the Prince of Wales,
as Duke of Cornwall, for ever, until ho was
raised to the. Throne; and if he had a son, the
duchy was to pass to him. Therefore the public had no
present interest in this duchy. The only right which
the public could have in this duchy was prospective;
but then that only applied to the time which preceded
the birth of a Prince of Wales,
_after the former Prince

fhad ascended the throne. The Noble Lord then pro-
ceeded to observe upon the management of the Duchy of
Cornwall. He admitted that formerly the management
of the property was bad, but that system had‘been ma-
t erially changed since the appointment of ate-tountil
which now regulate d its affairs. Formerly the tenants
used to get leases for lives, but now only leases for years
were given, and the result had been most advantageous
to the property generally. He admitted that there had
been great abuses in respect to the salaries paid to the
officers, but these abuses had been got rid of to a great
extent. The office of Lord Warden, for which 2,0001. a
year was paid, was now held by Piince Albert without a
salary. The Chancellor (Mr. Pemberton Leigh) was
also unpaid. But it was true that the Surveyor-General
and the Receiver-General were paid a salary of 1,000/
a year. These offices were to be got rid of. The whole
of the Council were unpaid.
Mr. HUME—That is the objection ; I think there
ought to be a paid officer to manage the affairs of the
duchy.
Lord LINCOLN said if the Hon. Member had waited
would have found that he intended to have said that
there was a paid secretary, and his duty was to lo,lt
with care to the interests of the heir to the duchy. With
regard to the Duchy of Lancaster, he must admit that
it was not in a favourable state, but he had every r.,a-
son to believe that Lord Campbell was most anxious to
place the property of that duchy in a better position
than it then was. The Hon. Gentleman said that only
12,000/. had been paid into the proper fund out of a re-
ceipt of 33,0001. lie thought the lion. Gentleman was
not exactly right in this statement. Still he was bound
to admit that the property of the duchy was not as well
managed as could be desired. But that was one of the
consequences of the property being spread over a largo
space of country, and the agency in connexion with it
was, therefore, necessarily very extensive.
After a few words from Mr. BASS,

Mr. TRELAWNY replied; and the House divided,
when there appeared-7

I THE PROVIDENT CLERKS' --
ASSOCIATION.
The annual meeting of the members of the Benevo-
lent Department of this very prosperous association was
held on Wedeesday evening, at the London Tavern—
John Abel Smith, Esq., M.P., occupied the chair. Among
those present, we noticed--
Baron L. de Rothschild, M.P., Thomson Hankey, jun.,
Esq., J. W. Gilbart, Esq., R. H. Jones, Eq., Chairman;
J. W. Welch, Esq., Deputy-Chairman; W. J. Jordan, Esq.,
Willian Maitland, Esq., John Clarke, Esq., W. S.
Sawtell, Esq., S. Notley, Etq., James Lintott, Esq.,
Samuel Jepps, Esq., John Dankeerts, Esq., A. Dawson,
Esq., Richard Price, Esq., members of the hoard of
management; Wm. Ratray, Esq., J. J. Iselin, Esq., Wm.
Rennell, Esq., Alfred Since, Esq., F.R.S., W. 13. Rey-
nolds, Esq., Richard Bell, Esq., Richard Randall, Esq.
The usual routine business having been transacted,
Mr. R. H. JONES (the chairman of the board of
management) read the report and balance-sheet, as
follows:
" The Provident Clerks Mutual Benefit Association and
Benevolent Fund, 42, Moor ate-street, London.
" REPORT FOR THE YEAR 1848.
"On presenting their eighth annual report of the
Benevolent Department of this Association, the board of
management have much pleasure in congratulating the
donors, subscribers, and members, on the favourable
result of the past year.
" The continued depression of commerce, and the
difficulties created by the embarrassments of previous
years, would naturally have checked any rapid accumu-
lation of the funds of this department of the Association,
but, by increased exertions both in London and the
provinces, the board have not only kept alive the inte-
rest of the Association, but have also increased the
amount of donations and subscriptions.
" During the past year the following sums have been
received, viz.
From 102 new subscribers ...
From 388 old subscribers

..Xlll 2 6
.. 444 9 6

Making the total amount of subscriptions 555 11 6
And in donations ... . ... ... 239 8 6

Together ... £795 0 0
being an increase over the former year of 1991.
" In addition to these sums the board have the gratifi-
cation to announce the receipt of 7111. Cs. 10d. from the
benefit department, being one-third of the first division
of profits, which amount, in conformity with the rules,
was duly invested in the Funds.
"This fact may ,be consislered as one of great im-
portance in the early history of the association, and
whilst it has more than realised the anticipations of the
board it holds out a most encouraging prospect for
the future, more especially as the regular increase in the
business of the Life Assurance Department, is a gua-
rantee that the benevolent fund will, in future derive
very considerable advantage from this source.
" The business of the past year, for the assurance
department shows the following favourable result, and
the board have the pleasure to state that 434 policies,
representing 85,1104 were issued, which exceeded the
amount of business of any previous year.
" In accordance with the resolution of the last annual
meeting, an election of three annuitants took place at
the London Tavern on the 31st of May last, when
One clerk was elected to an annuity of ... 25L
And

Two widows of clerks, each to annuities of 151.
making in all,
Three clerks and seven widows of clerks,
Annuitants on the funds of this department.
" Towards meeting the expenses unavoidably in-
curred, and as a trifling compensation for the disap-
pointment to the unsuccessful candidate, the board, as
on the previous occasion of the election of annuitants,
presented her with a gratuity of 101
" On the evening of the day of election, the Right
Hon. Henry Labouchere, M.P., President of the Board
of Trade, presided at a public dinner at the London
Tavern, in aid of the funds, and was supported by a
large number of patrons and friends of the association;
the net amount realised thereby was 3191. Os.
" Connected with this part of their ,duty, the board
have the pleasure to announce that through the exer-
tions of Mr. Lea, their agent at Liverpool, a public
dinner was also held at that place for the purpose of
promoting the interests of the association, and it is gra-
tifying to record that the warmest feeling was evinced by
the Worshipful the Mayor, C. B. Horsfill, Esq., chair-
man, and a large number of influential gentlemen in
favour of the objects of the association, and the board
hepe that the example thus set by the great commercial
town of Liverpool may be followed by others, so that the
benefits of the association may develop themselves in
every part of the kingdom.
" Whenever the agents of the association gave encou-
ragement to hold public meetings, the board readily
sent deputations; and during the past year a meeting
was held at Gloucester, the Worshipful the Mayor,
D. H. Walker, Esq., in the chair, and another at Nor-
wich, presided over by H. J. Gurney, Esq., a name uni-
versally known in the cause of philanthropy and bone-
volence.

" The deputations also visited Stroud, Monmouth,
Newport, and Bristol, and they have pleasure in stating
that in all those places the seed sown has produced con-
siderable benefit to both departments of the association.
"During the past year fifteen gratuities have been
made to 12 members, to the extent 0f.98/. 10s., and 115
members have received assistance from loans to the ex-
tent of 2,4611 Gs. Gil., being double the amount granted
during the preceding year. This fact not only shows
that the clerks were involved in the general distress
which prevailed, but also shows the benefit they have
derived as members of this association, and the managers
are aware of many instances in which this timely as-
sistance to distressed clerks has been of essential advan-
tage to them.

•-•.• A meeting of the treasurer and trustees was held on
the 6th of February at the office of the association, when
the balance-sheets of both departments were inspected
by them, and they were pleased to express their satis-
faction at the progress which had been made.
" The balance-sheet for the year 1848, duly audited, is
as follows, by which it will be seen that the increase
made to the funds of the association during the past year
is 1,2461. 19s. 9d. :

"The invested fund on the 31st December, 1848,
amounted to 11,6281. Three per Cent. Stock. With re-
ference to the expenses hitherto charged to this depart-
ment, the Board, after mature consideration, and looking
to the large amount received from the assurance de-
partment for the one-third share of profits, and also to
tha tact that the whole of the proceeds arising from
dinners and provincial meetings have been applied to the
benevolent fund, considered it equitable on this occasion
to continue the course they pursued last year by charging
one-third of the general expenses to this department, but
they feel confident that for the current year they will be
able to make a considerable reduction.
...._.

" The board have now the pleasure to recommend,
that at the election on the 30th May next one clerk and
three widows of clerks be elected annuitants on the fund,
and to give effect to the same a resolution will be sub-
mitted in the course of the evening.
" Being fully impressed with the great advantages de-
rived from the public dinners in making known the ob-
jects of the Association, and considering the improved
state of commerce, and the suggestions of some of the
warmest friends and ;most liberal contributors to the
funds of the association, the board think it desirable
again to celebrate the election of annuitants by a din-
ner, and they will take measures accordingly, not
doubting that they will experience the like hearty co-
operation which has attended their former efforts.

" In conclusion the board congratulate the members
on the steady progress of an association which offers to
those for whom it was or:ginally founded advantages
peculiar to itself, and they again earnestly impress upon
all the necessity of a warm co-operation in extending
its usefulness, a course by which they will at once pro-
mote their own individual interests, and that of the asso-
ciation in general."
The report was much applauded, particularly that
portion relating to the election of four additional an-
nuitants—namely, one clerk and three widows of clerks.
Mr. JONES said, before the adoption of the report was
put by the Chairman, he wished to say a few words
with respect to the publication of the balance-sheet. At
the recent meeting of the members of the benefit depart-
ment, the directors were blamed for not having published
the balance-sheet of that department. lie wished to
state that the directors had not the slightest objection
to do so,—(Cheers.) The only consideration with them
was the expense of doing so, which, ho was bound to say,
was treated by some of the members at the last meeting
as a matter of little importance. If it was the wish of the
meeting that that the balance-sheets should be printed,
the board would at once accede to it.—(Cheers.) He
concluded by moving the first resolution:—
That the report now read be received, adopted, ansi
printed at the discretion of the board."
Mr. J. W. WELset seconded the proposition, which
was put by the Chairman and carried unanimously.
Mr. 31AITLAND rose to propose the next resolution—
" That on the 30th May next, or such other day as
the board may appoint, of which due notice shall be
given, a special general meeting be held for the pur-
pose of electing four additional annuitants, duly qualified
according to the rules, viz., one clerk being a member to
an annuity of 25/, and three widows of members to an-
nuities of 151. each, and in the event of no qualified
member offering himself, then to elect four widows of
members to annuities of 151. each."
(Loud cheers.) He said he submitted it to the
meeting with very peculiar pleasure, :sine!, tw.:
years ago, in May, 1847, he had the happiness
this
exception, to the members a similar proposition, with this
exception, that but two annuitants were proposed to be
elected, whilst on the present occasion they proposed to
elect four.—(Loud cheers.) They were often told that
" one fact is worth a bushel of arguments.aygratifying to
neers
" Now this
was a fact that must be p
(eccui.) It was indeed
every member of the society.
a source of great satisfaction that the progress of the
institution had been of a nature to enable the directors
to propose the election of four additional annuitants, and
they felt that, strengthened by the it
members,would
continue to progress, and enable the directors at a future
period to propose the election of additional annuitants.
ot
importance
(Cheers.) The managers had always felt that the
benevolent department of the Association h
altoge-
ther progressed as they could wish, and as its
ad not
deserved. It had not increased in the same rapid man-
ner as the benefit or assurance department, for it must
be borne in mind that but a tithe part of
the clerks, even of the metropolis, contributed to this
department, though a large number had essured their,
lives in the other; yet, upon the whole, the managers'
were happy to congratulate the members on the progress
it had made. They were all aware that much distress
had prevailed during the past year among many of the
persons engaged in commerce. This had tested the
value of this association, and as they had heard
a very large amount had been lent to members—
indeed, double the amount of the preceding year ; and
the managers had reason to know that the utmost good
members. The
had been thereby conferred upon many