The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-08 00:00:00

IRISH CORPORATION REFORM BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for the
(louse to resolve itself into a Committee on this MIL

Lord F. EGERTON rose to discharge the duty which he
had imposed on himself by the notice he had given on a
former night.—(Hear, hear.) lie felt `more sensibly
than he hid ever felt before, the great importance of the
subject he was about to bring under the notice of the. House.
If there was any thing that afforded him relief under
these circumstances, it wts the fact that the dis-
cussion on this subject on a former occasion, presented
in his judgment more of argument and less of acrimony
than was usual in the discussions which took place in that
House, and snore especially when the ground of contest was the
great field of Ireland. Little as I may be able to contribute
any addition to the argument (continued the Noble Lord), I
do trust I may be able to succeed in avoiding to originate any
infusion of that second ingredient I have named, which, by its
absence has distinguished the debate which the first a lvanced.
There was no speech delivered on that occasion more stamped
with that character which I have ventured to attribute to the
debate, than that delivered by the Attorney-General for Ire-
land. I do agree to ratify with my vote the sentence he has
uttered on institutions which cannot, in my judgment, longer
withstand the evidence of their failure for any good social
purpose, whether of original intention or casual adoption ;
and whatever may be my abstract reverence for prescription or
antiquity, I am prepared to relieve them from the burden of a
weak and painful existence, without reference to the particu-
lar quarter from which their fall may be cheered, or to what
parties, on the other hand, may follow them with lamentation
to the grave As far, therefore, as the fact of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's argument extended, I find myself in
that state of concurrence which I wish I could always
find myself in with that Gentleman. Here, however (as
the motion I Inve submitted to the House indicates),
am afraid we diverge. I join the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman in removing these abuses of alleged exclusion,
and we only differ when he sits down to build among the
ruins, and I pause to question the necessity, or to exa-

. • -.• 1,
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mine the probable results of the Keeo,nstiruSruiCpen, ..
of his Bill, by which he prop -&, re.e.4erelje"..;44 i
of his preamble and first cla l'lti ithet-'INI-11-eitiesVls
Gentleman has asked, will the e, after.eseVg, d
measure of Municipal Reform f r Scotland atia Eng, n . e-
fuse one to Ireland on similar p • eialesp (My a'tek er . uld
be this. If you mean by it the ees\eit .every hum:snarurity
for the application of equal justi /O lill.e.afscS . d all per-
re,
sussions in the administration oft ale; irdeetie. can by it
i
the placing al local expenditure for mu freallurposes under
vigilant popular controul, I answer. yes. If you mean art
elective administration of the functions of justice, and the
powers of the armed police, I answer that I look to the end
and not the means; and when you have shown me that those
ends are to be attained by that popular election in Ireland as
well as England, I will answer yes, also, to that pro- osition.
Bearing this observation as to the definition of similars prig,
ciple in view, I deny that, in substituting abolition for tho
restoration of the Right Hon. Gentleman, I do withhold from
Ireland the benefits which, to use the words of the Hee. Gun.
tleman, Parliament has not hesitated to extend to the other
parts of the empire. This, sir, is the cause and substance er
an argument well- Calculated to dazzle by its specious lustre,
to attract one's attention by its seductive generalities, and to
blind us to those consequences which, however matters of
detail, lion. Gentlemen will pardon me for saying rcqui-e, as
I think, no microscope to detect. He or any other gentle-
roan, who boasts an equal pride in his country, or equal love
for the land which reared him, may listen with impatience to
anything I have to say on the subject of its affeiss ; but I
should wander into the extreme of base, and se; vile, and in-
sincere flattery, if I told him that there was nothing in the
situation of that country, in the state of its society, which :as-
tinguished it from England and other nations, and ..11'..4 may
in special cases make it an unfit recipient for insti.utionevillich
are not in themselves essential to good government, and
which are only valuable as the machinery for that purpcsee
If this be insult'to Ireland, I can only say that I should con-
ceive that I was insulting the good sense of Irishmen if I sup-
pressed my conviction of its truth. When I find numbers
arrayed against property, a minority powerful in wealth and
intelligence, opposed to a majority unpopular in their mate-
rials—when I see the natural guardians of the temporal and
spiritual interests of its lower orders in conflict, I do say that
there is a sad distinction between England and Scotland,
which bears directly on the question uosv at issue; ..the mode
by which we shall regulate the administration of the law, and
the protection of the property and. peace of those who are to
live under it in the case, not indeed of society at large, but of
certain most important aggregations_ of individuals. I say
that into that country it is not desirable to introduce a system
by which he who has to administer the law to all, may he in-
debted for his tenure of that high function to a few ; I say,
that if unfortunately the state of feeling be such that party
must be represented by him that makes the law—that if it be
such that mere profession of opinion, apart from the proof of
any one qualification upon earth, be a passport to Parlia-
mentary representation, I say that all which is desirable
becomes doubly necessary, that he who administers it
should see no obligations for his appointment—that his
installation should not become an election chairing—that
he should not be borne into the hall where municipal justice
holds her-seat, on the shoulders of a mob, any morel than he
should sneak into it through the private avenue of a faction.
His Right Hon. Friend spoke of the appointment of sheriffs,
and he asked a question which has not been answered yet.
What security the popular appointments of those officers af-
forded for the purity of juries, and the impartial execution of
that most important function ? The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer wisely forbore to reply, and confined the force of his
answer to the circumstance of there being but eight cities
which, under the Bill, are to be entrusted with the election of
officers of that denomination. What would Louis Philippe say
to his new Minister if he told him, " We have an institution
to which we all have objection, but really the application is
so partial that we are convinced his Majesty will not object.
We propose to apply this institutien to Paris, Lyons, Mar-
seilles, Bordeaux, Nantes, ands two or three other towns." Is
Ireland the country I have desteribed, or is it not ? It is idle to
be delicate, delicacy is misplaced in dealing with such a sub-
ject; and if I am called upon to demonstrate that feeling, I
find the difficulty which greater reasoners than myself-have
found in proving an axiom, or in confuting that system
which denies the testimony of our senses, and the evidence
of habitual perceptions. If Ireland be not that country, if
I, as an Englishman, misconceive its situation, or speak of
evils which do not there exist, then I say to the gentlemen
of that land who hear me, S' Your countrymen misrepre-
sent you ; truisms and professional opinions are unfaithful
guides ; your own daily press is not the mirror of things that
are. The minutes of evidence before Irish or Orange or in-
timidation Committees are a mere delusion. Those who gave
it were falsifiers, and those who listened to it were dupes." If
Ireland be not that country, the speech which we heard the
other night, when this House rang with applause of the senti-
ments and language of the Noble Lord was thrown away; the
oil he then attempted to pour forth was wasted on a waveless
surface. In the case of the Reform Bill, some may hove
thought that there were reasons which forbade its extension to
Ireland ; but none could have failed to perceive, that to deny
that extension must there have been felt, even if necessary, as
an insult and an injury, and that hardly any reason could have
been alleged against it which would nut have gone all the
lengths of despotism. You had no choice in that case between
the perpetuation of all the abuses so called which you had
agreed to sweep into schedule A in England, and a similar
measure of representation ; for you could not propose to leave
Ireland without a representation. Does that necessity exist
here ? Is separate jurisdiction any part of the essence of our
constitution? Does our elective magistracy rank with trial by
jury, or the free and fair representation of the people in Parlia-
ment ? If it be essential in theory or in practice, how has
Manchester, how has Birmingham, pursued with their
crowded populations the arts of industry ? Why should
election be confined to these cemmunities, where it
more immediately rouses the elements of local strifes,
and is adverse to the social charities ? Why does it
not extend to the rural distr.cts ?—and these considerations
bring me to the subject of the Irish Constabulary Bill. What
are the provisions of that Bill, and their object? They deal
with one of the most important objects connected with the
peace of Ireland—the appointment as well as the regulation
of an armed police of some 5,000 men. That appointment
now resides with the gentlemen of the country, the body of
magistracy—a body appointed by the King's commission. Do
they leave this power of appointing the police in the hands of
that body? Or do they remove it to a magistracy elected on
any popular principle, however restricted ? No ; they transfer
that power to the Lord Lieutenant. In my opinion they do
wisely, and that opinion with me is not new. I thought so
in 1830, and I think so still. In 1830 I thought that it would
be advisable to transfer to the responsible representative
of the King in Ireland—to one who was placed above the
atmosphere of local partialities and influences—these appoint-
ments. It is not for me to show that circumstances have
arisen since that period not to justify my views, but to convert
my opponents-; but in the case of those who then opposed my
views and those of my Right Hon. Friend, I am bound to pre-
sume that such circumstances have arisen—for I do tint attribute
to my Right lion. Friends opposite any low or paltry or mere
party motives in this matter. Ido not believe that they con-
sidered then that the Duke of Northumberland was an im-
proper depositary of the trust they are ready to give to Lord
Mulgrave ; and if I look on the opposite benches for the then
i hampions of the magistracy, it is not for the purpose of a
momentary cheer, or to throw any difficulties in his present
course, that I turn to the debate of 1830. I give full credit
to my Right Hon. Friend for something more statesmanlike,
than any such ground of paltry party reference to the
individuals in power, or out of it ; but I have to infer
from his change of -opinion, that he does not conceive that the
situation of Ireland yet has undergone a change for the better
since the period when I was officially connected with its af-
fairs, or that its condition has been assimilated to that of Eng •
land in those better features of order and tranquillity; and
when he joins the generalising cry for identity of institutions
in all particulars, I might have a right to ask arc you pre-
pared, while you receive what you establish or enjoy here,
by
to
part on your side with institutions which in themselvesa d
the mode you amend and modify them, prove and illustrate
the strong practical distinction which exists between the
two
countries? The Constabulary Bill of my Right Hon. Friend
is, I say, an answer to that question, which prevents me from
giving him the trouble of any other reply. I say the Consiss_
bulary Bill of this year is in itself an answer to the clamour
which is raised for identity of institutions. I ask again, sill
you who join that cry come forward to assimilate your institu-
tions ? - I don't ask will you bear the same burdens—will you,
on the part of Ireland, make the same contributions to the
Exchequer ; but I ask, will you abandon the assistant-bar-
rister's jurisdiction ? Is there anything like the summary
jurisdiction of the assistant-barristers in England S Is
there a dissentient voice as to its value and its merit in
Ireland ? That court is one of those instances which prove
in itself the impossibility of applying identical institutions
to the two countries ; the law or England it administers,
but there is nothing in practice more differing in the cases of
England and Scotland than there is in this between England
and Ireland. And what are you about with the law ? Are you
moulding it to the practice of England ? Arc you gradually
confining its operation ? Arc you compelling the assistant
barrister to empannel a jury where you now only give him a
power to do it, which he rarely if ever exercises ? If you arc
so employed, I believe you will create great dissatisfaction in
Ireland. I believe you will have an insurrection of suitors,
who prefer for the settlement of their civil causes .ate fiat cf
a lawyer appointed by the Crown to the veretact of their
neighbours. But lam happy to think you are not. At
this very moment an Honourable and Learned Member
is reviving a Bill of last Session to extend the operation:
of the system to make the administration of civil justice in
Ireland less like England, and with this Bill, or that for
the Irish constabulary, staring me in the face, you tell me
that the two countries must have not only equal justice, but
the same institutions. The Right Honourable Gentleman
tells us of Commissioners under the sth of 6ieorge IV., and
Protestant Members of Parliament. I derive the greatest
satisfaction from the informatiea the Right Honourable Gen.:
will the night Hon. Gentleman se-
riously say that he anticipates from this that purity will govern
the elections of the magistrate and councillors, which will
Bills l
but
dlonityooffrefo rmandi
come under the operation of awhich is ushered in like the
must say I rejoice
present by all the acclamation.. party, announced wits; sn
much of the pomp and .
if politics absented themselves from the election of these Com-
rnissienees, more particularly as my proposition to nig)et em-
braces the very extensive application of the provisiees of that
very Act ; but, if they did not, it tells for nooe.ine that there'
were Protestant as well as
if Catholic
.ri
Cem
ob-
jection is to partisans, not to Catno,ucs. A
s to the Protestant
Members of Parliament, ttliSeioners, for my
theee Members advocate opinions
witioli I think dangerous, it is no satisfaction to me that any
one should ,be able to tell me,
" I am as good a Protestant as
yourself." then itiot Hon. Gentleman mean to tell me
that these rrotestut Members were
Does
returned to Parliament