The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-19 00:00:00

the rkferM Bill was immediately popular there, and, in all pi o-
babilitY, the health& of his Majesty's Ministers were freely drank
on that night.-4 Hear, hear, arid laughter.) Next day's post
W th
Wok thein the tidings at Los.tWithel was placed hi schedule A,
Then *hat was the result ? Probably his Majesty's Ministers
Were burnt in effigy, and he was not Alike that the yeomanry might
not Very stioti have to be called but to qquell disturbances in that
part of Ctiriiwall. With respect to schedule 13, that schedule
was not only ibexptdient but unpoptilar. He believed that the
ohly part of the Bill which Was popular throughout the country
was the extinction of the nomihatioh boroughs, and the extension
Of the ele,'tii'efratiellise.—(Cheers.) To schedule A. he (ilr. W.)
had certainly become a tonvert.=(Hear, hear,. hear.) A
crintert he could hardly tall hitnsdf, for his opinions
remained the lathe but a conVert to that schedule on accouut
tit the alarming state of the Country. It was the fashion in
the tieveriiiiient side of the House to claim attachment to the
people; but he begged to observe, that he was as much attached
to the rights and privileges ofi the people as well as to
the principles of the Crown, as any man in that House.
All he disliked was the noisy factious demagogues, that ex-
cited and aggravated the country. He felt glad at seeing
a borough in schedule B with which he had been long con-
nected; at the same time he would not allow the Govern.
ment to have credit for concession. If they were to have
concessions, those concessions would have to be dated from this
evening, because the Bill on the table was the Bill to which
Government was pledged, and the House had nothing what.
ever to do with the old 'Bill. With respect to the situation of
the different boroughs, though he waa unwilling to hazard an
opinion at present, f the adjustment of the balance in
the old Bill was right, it followed that that adjustment
must be wrong now; and he should therefore wish to
hear some explanation upon this either from the Mem-
bers of the Crown, or from some of their supporters, that they
might be then and there pruned down to the opinions which
they thought p roper to advocate. He could not help re.
garding this as a very great and important question, and that
whatever the result of the deliberations of the House upon
it might be, it would be proved to be so throughout the
country. He knew not whether he spoke the opinions
of his constituents or not, but his opinion was that Government
had done perfectly right in not giving more representatiies,
to Ireland, but he went so far as to say that he thought it
a positive evil that any alteration in the representative
Members of Ireland should hare been made at all. No new
interests in commercial towns had arisen in Ireland to justify the
increase of the representative Members of that country ; and the
argument as to population would not hold. In the next place,
he had to offer his tribute of approbation of the conduct
of the Gentlemen Commissioners who had been appointed by
Government. He knew not whether most to admire their zeal,or
the amazing expedition with which they had despatched business.
The Noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had last
night alluded to a passage in Lord Clarendon's history of the
Rebellion, and as some parts of it referred very closely
to what was passing at the present moment, with the
pennission of the House he should read some paragraphs of it.
Lord Clarendon said, speaking of the time of the rebellion
that there were men of great parts, and unspeakable learning ;
and then he said in another part, the Government was
in the hands of men who were only interested in doing
good for themselves, and cared nothing for doing good for the
people. He said that, with respect to the people, there
was the same restlessness of disposition as there existed at the
present moment—the same tone of innovation—the same calling
for dissolution of Parliament—the same feeling against the
Church, and the same cry of " Down with the Bishops;"
following in every particular what was going on in
the present day; even to the more trivial points the analogy
held good. The Lords could not go down to the House
without meeting with the grossest insults; they were fol-
lowed by the mob, calling them " rotten-hearted Lords;"
and what was most extraordinary, there were at that time
Black Lists—(whether in red and white he could not say)—
hawked about in every alley, and posted against every wall,
in the city of London. With respect to Ireland there was a great
similarity at • the present time. She was termed " a gulph to
swallow, a sponge to draw ;" and after Lord Clarendon
had referred to all this, at the conclusion of these state-
ments, he draws the attention of the reader thus, he says
that after the passing of the attainder, and the settlement of the
Parliament, the public mind became "marvellously calm and
composed."—(Loud cheering.) He, the Honourable Member,
had no doubt that after the passing of the present Reform
Bill the minds of the people would become "marvellously
calm and composed"—'Loud cheering)--but it must be remem-
bered that there would follow that dreadful re-action that would
succeed to disappointment. When the House of Lords was
abolished, the Church went to the ground, and the King
was assassinated. He (Mr. Baring Wall) by no means
envied the feelings of that individual, who after having
read the details of that book could come to the discus-
sion of a question like the present without fear and trem-
bling.—(Loud cheering, and cries of" Hear.") The incapacity of
his Majesty's Government became every day more and more
apparent. Who would be the parties, he would ask, who would
be benefited by this measure? Not those who were now
so loudly clamouring for the passing of the Bill. He did not
wish to speak with the slightest disrespect of any man—he
was besides by far too old a courtier, and much too young a man,
to speak with disrespect of the party who would succeed, but he
would say that if the Whigs would only listen to the voice
of reason, and agree to adopt the modifications of the
Bill, which those on that side of the House were willing
to propose, no man could hesitate to say that the peace of
the country would be insured, and the Ministry would gather
strength. The Hon. Member sat down amidst loud cheers, with
stating that he should vote against the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. CRESSETT PELHAM concurred entirely with the sen-
timents of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and as
he conscientiously believed that the Bill would not be attended
with those beneficial results which were anticipated, he should
vote against its second reading.
Lord W. LENNOX said the people of England felt that they
had not been properly represented, and now demanded that share
in the representation which was withheld from them. They
did not claim it as a matter of expediency or policy, but as a
right due to them. He highly approved of the alterations made
in the Bill, and denied that they were in accordance with the
opinions entertained by Hon. Members opposite, during the dis-
cussion of last session.
Mr. PRAED had been waiting with much anxiety to hear
from the opposite side of the House something to which it would
be worth a reasonable man's mind to turn his attention.—(Loud
cries of hear.) He did not allude to the speeches this evening,
.for except the speeches of one or two Members, on one or two par-
ticular points, the speech delived by his Hon. Frind (Mr. C.)
last night had been unanswered. Many of the changes made
in the Bill had been unexplained, although it was the duty
of Ministers to explain all of them.—(Hear, hear.) All the
material changes were those which had been last session
insisted on by his side of the House, but Ministers claimed the
credit for the introduction. He asked what were those changes ?
One was the test of population which was abandoned, and another
more correct, adopted. That alteration was urged on his side
of the House last session, as was that relating to the census, in
taking the population of 1830, in preference to that which was
ten years older.
Colonel LINDSAY said he approved of certain parts of
.the Bill, but he could by no means concur in its principle.
The 10/. clause was denounced by the sovereignty of the
Press, and thus far, at least, some good was effected. But
among the many objections to the Bill as it now stood, one
was that it destroyed that balance which prevailed before
between the agricultural and manufacturing interests, and
gave the advantage to the latter. Before his Majesty's
Ministers adopted such a measure, they were bound to
show that the old Constitution was unfitted for its original
purpose. But lie would ask where were the practical evils
of that Constitution which was now about to be cast
aside? Had the Peers abused their power? Was their
influence preponderating? He saw no proof of it in the
House of Commons.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as it was necessary
the debate should conclude to-night, he wished to rite thus
early, in order to give such explanations as be could offer
respecting the Bill now before the House. Previously,
however, to his going into any discussion upon its merits
he felt himself called upon to notice a charge which was
brought against him on the first night, when he moved
lid' leave to bring in the Bill. It was said that at this

time of excitement and danger no discussion ought to take
place on a constitutional question, and that it would be
better to wait till the country should enjoy a season of calm
and tranquillity. To this he would reply, that if it was
dtsirable the question of Reform should be discussed in

times of quiet, he was not the person to oppose such a
proposition.—(Hear.) So long back a 9 the 15th of Decem-
ber, 1819, whin a ease of gross and undoubted corruption
was known to have taken place at the previous election, he
asked the House to give two Members to Leeds, and thus
improve the reresentation, by bringing to it new interests
and increased intelligence. Since that time he had never
ceased to bring forward a question of this nature; but it
was urged against him that there was no desire for it, no call
for it, nocry for it, and that they had better leave well alone,
Quieta non movere."
It was said that he had better wait till the necessity arose.
If the country now experienced the misfortune or calamity
of seeing the question brought forward in time of danger
and excitement, the fault did not rest with those who bad

repe.itedly submitted to the House a temperate and mo-
rate measure of Reform—a measure diminished and di-

'uted to the very minimum of Reform. Yet even such a

measure as that was said to be too strong by those who
claimed the distinction of being the conservative party in
the State. A Right Hon. Gentleman bad last night
quoted some words of his, and drawn from them a conclu-

Ilion very different from what they were meant to imply.
He had said that if the principle of change were once ad-
mitted, there would be no possibility of opposing it ; but
did this imply that they were net, in consequence, to at-
tempt some small change at first, to see how it would act
in times of quiet, when the experiment could have been
safely and deliberatety tried, as it might have been before
it came to be supported by numerous petitions, and by
large portions of the inhabitants in every part of the
country? He was well aware that Reform brought with
it a great change, which could not be unattended with
peril; but he was also aware that the danger of standing
still was more imminent, and, therefore, preponderated.
He thought there was no man who really knew the state
of thecountry that must not be convinced that the danger
of a great change was better than running the risk of ef.
fecting no change at all, and declaring, as it had been de-
clared, that the Constitution of the House of Commons
was perfect. He and his friends, who supported Parlia-
ment try Reform, thought that the House ought to consist
of the representatives of the people—a proposition which,
if mooted in the time of Speaker Onslow, would have been
considered a truism, but which now was regarded as bold
innovation. He and his friends next held, that by no in-
genuity of argument could the representative of en indivi-
dual be considered as the representative of thepeople. They
also thought that the great movement of society had brought
this country into a state in which such abuses as now
existed could no longer be endured. They thought it was
not to be endured that 150 persons should be sent into this
House—not by the peop'e— but by individuals.—(Cheers.)
They thought it was not to be endured that a place with
160,000 inhabitants should be represented by a consti-
tuency of 13 or 14 persons. They thought that there and
other matters were so repusrnant to reason and common
sense, as well as to the increased knowledge of mankind,
that it was utterly impossible they could long continue.—
Those Hon. Gentlemen who were now on the other aisle
of the House, but who were then in power, had frequently