The Sun.
London, England, 1836-04-19 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 18.

In consequence of the second reading of the Irish MuniciFal
Corporation Bill being fixed for this evening the gallery was
filled at an early hour. There was also an unusual attendance of
Peers, particularly of those who generally sit on the Opposi-
tion side of the House.
THE BETTER OBSERVANCE•OF THE SABBATH.

The Earl of RIPON presented several petitions for the
better observance of the Sabbath.

The Earl of FALMOUTH presented petitions from the
Wesleyan Methodists of Truro, Charlestown, and St. Austell,
in Cornwall, to the same effect.
A NOBLE Loan presented a petition from the boatmen and
watermen gaining a livelihood on the Severn, praying for a
better observance of the Sabbath.
HULL AND SELBY RAILWAY.

The Earl of RIPON presented a petition from the Trustees
of the Turnpike Roads of the East Riding of Yorkshire, against
the Hull and Selby railway.
BIRMINGHAM AND GLOUCESTER RAILWAY.

Lord SEGRAVE presented a petition from the inhabi-
tants of Stroud and Cheltenham against the Bristol and Bir-
mingham Railway. The Noble Lord also presented a petition
from the inhabitants of Gloucester, against the Cheltenham
railway.
Lord ABINGER presented a petition from Worcester,
against certain clauses in the Birmingham and Gloucester
Railway Bill.
PROTESTANT DISSENTERS.

The Earl ofRADNOR presented a petition from the Pro-
testant Dissenters of Wolverhampton, praying for the removal
of their grievances.
IRISH MUNICIPAL CORPORATION BILL.

The Earl of LIMERICK presented a petition from the
Mayor, Sheriffs, and Aldermen of Limerick, against the Irish
Municipal Corporation Bill.
A NOBLE LORD presented a petition from the city of Lon-
donderry, in favour of the Bill.
The Bishop of DURHAM presented a petition from Chi-
chester to the same effect.

Lord FITZGERALD presented a petition from the Corpora-
tion of Drogheda, praying before the Bill passed they might be
heard by Counsel at the Bar, and stating that they could satisfy
the House that the property with which they had been entrusted
had been administered in the performance of those trusts for
which the property was given to them.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Mr. BERNAL and others from the Commons, brought up the
Bill for the amendment of the Act abolishing Slavery in the
island of Jamaica, and several other Bills.
CHELTENHAM AND STROUD RAILWAY.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a petition from
Tewkesbury, against the Bill for a railroad from Cheltenham
to Stroud, and in favour of the line by Oxford.
SABBATH OBSERVANCE.
The Earl of WINCHIL SEA presented several petitions
from congregations of Wesleyan Methodists, praying for a
Bill for the better observance of the Sabbath.

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from Macclesfield,
signed by 4,000 persons, against the system of Imprisonment
for Debt.

LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND.)
Lord TEMPLEMORE presented a petition from the Ba-
rony of Kingscourt, in the King's County, praying that land-
lords might be compelled to give compensation for valuable
improvements in case he should eject the tenants from their
holdings ; also a petition for a modified system of poor laws in
Ireland.

Lord LYNDHURST presented several petitions from
certain rural districts, praying to be relieved from filling cer-
tain offices which interfere with their agricultural occupations.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS—(IRELAND.)
A NOBLE LORD presented a petition from Newry against
the Bill for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ire-
land.

The Marquis BRE ADALBANE presented a petition
from the city of Bath, in favour of the Irish Corpo-
ration Bill. The petitioners stated, that they, hav-
ing experienced the good effects produced by the
Municipal Corporation Bills for England and Scotland,
they wished that an equal measure of justice should be extended
to their fellow-subjects in Ireland, and that a different system of
government from that hitherto adopted should be pursued.
Lord MELBOURNE presented a petition from Cork in
favour of the Municipal Corporations Bill, and that the franchise
might be reduced to 51. ; also a petition from the parish of the
Holy Trinity, in the same city, to the same effect ; also a petition
from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of Hull, to
the same effect ; also from the Mayor and Corporation of Ayr,
to the like effect.

AFFAIRS OF .
The Earl of ABERDEEN begged to ask a question of
the Noble Viscount opposite. The House might recollect
that about a month ago he had moved for a copy of the
correspondence between our Ministers at Madrid and the
Spanish Government, in order to show what efforts had been
made to humanise the warfare then going forward in that
country.—( Hear, hear, hear.) From what fell from the
Noble Viscount, in assenting to that motion, they had
not reason to expect any voluminous returns ; but whatever
they might be, they had not yet made their appearance on their
Lordships' table. He now observed that since last lie addressed.
the House, greater reason existed for .the immediate produc-
tion of those papers. The Government had unncessarily em-
barked themselves, and his Majesty's arms, in this cut-thr?at
system of warfare, and had afforded to one of the parties active
co• operation and effective support. He begged to ask,
why e-
fore, if the Noble Viscount was aware of any reason the
papers had not been yet produced, and he hoped l
e would
have the goodness to say when they might be expected.
Viscount MELBOURNE was not aware had taken of any reason
for the delay, and was surprised that it
place. But after that day the papers should be laid before
the House immediately. It was tide steps had been taken by his
Majesty's Government, which rendered these papers of greater
interest. At the same time he had the satisfaction of assuring
the Noble Earl, he had only that day
iseen a dispatch which
that House respect-
stated that the representations made
ing the utter inefficiency of the treaty n
y of Lord Eliott, were
entirely unfounded. It had been obeyed in all the
d The barbarities which
parts to which it extenue •

p -I that treaty.
other parts which were not comrehenden in he
erdee
had been committed, had been committed in Catalonia, anu
Nobn)
le
(Hear, hear, hear.) It must be satisfactory to
tbith good
—that they had been the means of humanizing the c
to know that their efforts had not been unattended
with good
—that they had been the means of humanizing the character
(A
Duke (Wellington) and the Noble Earl
human
of the war, and of saving a considerable number of
lives.—(Hear, hear.)
RESOLUTIONS UPON RAILROADS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to move,
do concur
to the notice which he had given, that that House
i„.
rob-
in the resolutions of the House of Commons respectinogf
roads. These resolutions would have the effect
where
viatir.g the necessity of putting parties in all cases
rules
railways were not opposed, of going through the sameadditio
and forms as if opposed. He meant to propose according
two resolutions to roof
resolutions be not understood to dispense with the
the following effect—namely,
orders?
of compliance hitherto required ,by the standingg
were
of the House of Lords, and that, in cases where railroads
ittee
not opposed, it should be in the discretion of the Comm
to state what rule might be dispensed with.
that the
that
resolutions these
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought .
House was rather hastily called upon to adopt the res_orloutLon..,..
The House of Commons adopted every proposition of
euw".7
ye of
brought before it, and it was only in that House, that ti
with anything like determined opposition.
t so
able
omrnanY
these railroads were extremely detrimental
which
to show that in the county of Durham two railroads
parts of the country. —( Hear, hear.) He would be
now
had been brought forward upon public prospectuses, wattle
en..
completely in the hands of his Majesty's Govern
most
He called upon the Government and the House to look_
narrowly at the propositions now before the Houses, othawls*
the northern part of the country would suffer verygrfll!
loss.--( Hear, hear.) He complained, also, of the ,
nu
eZ„
pence to which parties were put, by being obliged L
defend themselves and their property before Parliamen.
thought the Companies ought to pay them.
The Earl of MALMESBURY su‘sgested that, th
e-e
v
whole question be referred to a select 'Committee u_e!e`,
it would be more calmly considered than in the Hon'
where they would cause constant discussions.
The Earl of WICKLOW enTecal with the IsTdbla Earbl tetter
a Committee would be able to consider the question
than the House.
After a few words from Lord ABINGER and Lord
BURTON, SOW'
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then moved the re
v..
tions, with two additional ones, on the subjectof the °l3gerto
ance of the standing orders of the House, and with respect
hat
cases in which no opposition was offered.
The question was put, and resolutions agreed to.
MUNICIPAL REFORM (IRELAND) BILL.•
The order of the day having been read for the second rea"
ing of this Bill, f his
Viscount MELBOURNE moved that that portion 0
Majesty's speech from the Throne at the opening of the ses
tor-
sion, relating to this subject, should be read, and it was ac
dingly read as follows :
You are already in possession of the Report of tbe Crl;
mission appointed to inquire into the state of the MunimPiall
beeCrporations in Ireland, and I entertain the hope that it w
in your power to apply to any defects and evils which may
have been shown to exist in those institutions, a remedy
ded upon the same principles as those of the Acts which h"
been already passed for England and Scotland." Ards,
Viscount MELBOURNE then rose and said—MY
in rising to move that your Lordships do assent to this
tant Bill, which has been sent un from the House of C 01"..
mons, I beg leave, in the first place, to observe that it oh:
Bill which, in all its parts and all its details, and with lltop
regulations which it proposes to carry into effect, conle"apey
to this House backed by the strong recommendation of a v.. t.
considerable majority of the other House of Parham our
More than this, I would particularly point out to Yea..
Lordships the fact that—with respect to the whole a`....
stract question—the reformation of these CorporatLiells
the condemnation of them as they exist at present—tile ad-
mission that the evils of the whole system, as it Tlow,,'d,
ists, can no longer be suffered to remain unrerneu' een
upon all these points I have the gratification to state that toe,
Bill comes recommended to your Lordships by the unaninwra
opinion of the House of Commons.— Hear, hear.) Theo
was not the slightest difference manifested upon the subject
these respects, and the conclusion which the House of Coil
moos came to, deduced from the Report of the Ir
Commission, was as decided as it was general. My L°r is
this Bill, like that which your Lordships passed last Session,
founded upon a Report emanating from a Commission
.9;
pointed by his Majesty, and which went into a very detal
ish MuniciPdas,
consideration of the whole state of Corporations in Ireial/ti:
and the result of whose labours has been laid upon your Lor.
ships' table. My Lords, before I heard what took Place
rg
the course of this evening's debate, I was going to rota a
that, neither in reference to the Commission who reported jest;
the Irish boroughs, any more than in reference to the Bug!, of
Commission, had I heard any condemnation of the conduct
the Commissioners, either as to the course of their ineuir.le.+,.
or as to the result which they had drawn from these inciairl.eoss't
I was going to say that I had heard no accusation a2;a!
these parties, no condemnation of their conduct, no
tation of unworthy motives, or anything which could
the effect of detracting from the value, or diminishing. the
authority of their Report, or of the recommendations %%la
it made to the Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) A 14„g
Lord„however, in bringing up a petition this evellitije
from the town of Drogheda, stated some imputations upon of'
conduct of the commissioners who examined into the state, to
that borough. Of course lam not prepared at the moree!"e-0
give any specific answer or opinion upon this point, but 1 c;
safely say that up to the present day these reports have beent:
attacked ; but on the contrary have been admitted to have '-;
f
nished the Legislature with fair and impartial pictures of
e
state of the Irish Corporations, of their number, of the manses
in which they are and have been carried on, of the twit l 0
which have prevailed in them, of the insufficient ran,narlet.hef
which they fulfil the objects and attain the ends for winteas
were instituted, and of the necessity of applying to then'
Urma-
perate and cautious, but at the same time an effectual, re'ahich
tion. My Lords, you have probably read the report i 3 -aratly
are stated the reasons why corporations in Ireland are gen- irre-
made close, more restricted in their nature, and more fin,
sponsible for their proceedings, than were even those
that
porations in England to which, notwithstanding all tlia,b, the
urged by some of your Lordships, notwithstanding a" the
splendid eloquence which your Lordships heard notwithstanding
mouth of a ,late Counsel at the bar of your House-700
laugh)—and which made an impression upon many of )diag.
Lordships to which your Lordships last year, notwithstanareb..
all this, thought it necessary and proper to apply a very
stords,
ing and a very decisive remedy.--(Hear, hear.) MY
it is stated in the report that— aeat or in-
"ln the great majority of the corporations no no--- re-
choatc title to admission, as a freeman or member, la °'iaere
cognized, and admission or exclusion depends on the i,bts
pleasure of a select or governing body. Where such r
are acknowledged to exist, they vary considerably in the "
ferent corporations." And thatestablished
n The modes of admission which have become
in most corporations have further contributed to limit the And
ber of freemen, and prevent the formation of a genesa
comprehensive commonalty. ve, toe
" Possessed of these powers, the governing bodies mt.,. .
commonly, used them without scruple, not as trusts to u:os
of
ercised for the benefit of the community, but as the me% ge-
attaining for themselves an exclusive dominion over tu. a of
neral inhabitancy, and political influence in the election to
Members of Parliament. The course which they see coil-
have almost universally pursued for this object has been to
joht
cede, with the utmost parsimony, to the inhabitants the r
to become members of the corporations as freemen. en go-
" With such exceptions as we have thus noticed, te'd arid
verning bodies of the Irish Corporations are self-eleetinacrs,
irresponsible ; yet in such bodies the admission of mend po-
the selection of the local officers, judges, magistrates, a° funds
lice • the administration of the patronage, propertYtil position
of the Corporations, and the general conduct and "le
of the affairs of the municipality, are absolutely vestc ja
My Lords, the report also states that that serious defect J i 9
Irelan
the Constitution of the Municipal Corporations ors
]]embers are
aggravated by the fact that the majority of the btimes
frequently non-residents, for the political spirit of 'Ol Geo-
induced the Legislature, in the year 1747 (
II.) to dispense with the important qualification off rthe
jrish
statute
esideoe
for corporate offices, in all, except a, very
few,
0t in theta
Corporations, under the pretence that there were nil, Core
a sufficient number of resident Protestants to form
ration. The effect of this was to make these bodies 'of ere'
of persons entirely alien to the feelings and interests.
an of
spective towns, over which, however, they exercised
Wards
dos
the most important privileges with high and impelllawds of
use the w
mination.—( Hear, hear.) The result is, to
the report, that
what may
" The operation of these defects extends beyolid . have
rations at
be deemed mere Corporate limits. The Corr As --
serl long become unpopular, and objects of suspiciofun.o ;
present constituted, they are, in many instances,
to the community ; in others, injurious ; ia all, insuutcl.be iastitu-
inadequate to the proper purposes and ends of their Ocerg
consist
tions. The üblic distrust in them attaches on t nee for,
resP
and nominees; and the result is a failure of that • , Which
and confidence in, the ministers of justice
,here theY
ought to subsist in well-regulated committees, s of secietY
exist, conduce so much to the peace and good orderue dreaded'
and without which the authority of the law may
, on, ill
but cannot. be respected or effective."
intenti
re
My Lords, it has always been my wish and
d when the
cases where pressing evils require reformation,
anst takingostrict a
is a general disposition to reform them, not to ca- no-
look back, and not to insist upon the Legislature'soecn place.,
and policy.,do
tice of any wrong or malfeasance which may have so much
particularly when the condemnatory reflection is ".in,agFd in
thrown upon the individuals who may have been
°f which "
it, as upon the system which gave rise to it, and %ot ,hare
is the consequence.—( Hear, hear.) I can imagine tying. large
there are bodies self-elected and irresponsible, to bon'
property intrusted to their management, and 150 balc
to render an account of their stewardship, and
all legal proceedings are peculiarly expensive,. _is rot u
uncertain —I can imagine that such a state of thinr
adroit thab'
likely to enerate a good deal of abuseea:qv, it mall!
while it icessential thoroughly to reform the systre seeerei
unjust, and perhaps imprudent, to press with toof
disP°sl.Bl
upon individuals.--( Hear, hear.) I'am, there ° the gene to
a(fia'llaititosrt;,cha°nYl.
in this, as in the English measure, to look more CO
principle—to the political evils which result
ha bad tee.
system as it at present exists—the divisions,tt
gives rise 'hick
the enmity among fellow-townsmen which a_ce woe
and malfeas
than to any individual cases of abuse bear.) f the
Hear,
may have occurred under its operation.—(l
the Report oval_
Noble Viscount then read two extracts froi
Etrniskilicn and them
Commissioners respecting the towns of d
revailad all
from the coflirollg,
donderry, exhibiting the abuses which ha
under the present system, and then proceeded :

Repor.s
and similar statements which are detached in the various
from the statement in the general Report, and from
ite: the general
it gFuaral admission of all who have spoken upon the sub-
clear is clear and undoubted that the Irish Corporations, as
ton at present exist, demand a thorough and entire reforma-
none of(""r. hear.) It is unquestionable that they perform
non-perftobrme performance
which they ought to perform, and that the
tthhose Co of those duties has necessarily produced all
14:evils which flow from bodies invested with authority which
3c Lordsot use wisely, beneficially, or efficiently.--( Hear.)
egYeet,,, the present measure is necessary, for the purpose of
sig,ert"Y•ea.rrying out the great measure by which you. de-
toureire_ro o 'chew.= the Roman Catholic population of this em.
e:d.
et
..m the restrictions under which they had previously la-
_ear
et A.t present these Corporations not only exclude Ro-
e,T.,_uoati.io!les from their body, but also those Protestants.
pinions are not agreeable to them ; the consequence is,
t.hi:hriooolt 1 in Ireland are there divisions between Roman
and Protestants, but there is also a great divi-
en_ t the Protestants among themselves. I will put it
14 the House,. then, whether, for the purpose. of carrying
out that Brea, . measure into full and effective operation,
they d
va.or, a not feel that it is incumbent upon them to make pro-
landof-r admitting- all classes of his Majesty's subjects in Ire-
ta.. f whatever religious opinions, to a due share of the
beaura.genlent and administration of these towns. ( Hear, hear,
1.4_2.. It is with this object that the present Bill has been
the
.It is founded almost entirely upon the principle of
sh Bill, which your lordships passed last year, and
1.4"-1-"owes, in great part, the work of a Noble and Learned
the: n the other side of the House. I may here observe,
shea,, was sorry the other night to hear the Noble Lord
in
Sat somewhat disparagingly of this Act. The Noble Lord
-Peaking of it, said " as it was now the law of the land,"
-17-7 as though he regretted that such was the case : it seemed
rather unuatural, on the part of the Noble and Learned Lord,
Zen peak with so little feeling about his own offspring.—(A
li.) To proceed : the Bill now presented, I will repeat
th rfg eined, for the most part, upon the Bill of last year. With
toe provisions of that measure it would be disrespectful in me
thsuPeose that Noble Lords' habits of business had not led
sideu make themselves well acquainted, more especially eon-
th!ring how important were those provisons, and how closely
f‘,..e Whole of it was debated. It will not be necessary, there-
In for Me to do more than to state generally the points upon
he,. II it agrees with the other Bill, and the points upon which
reaers from it. The course of proceeding in respect to all
Ike
charters was the same as in the English Act. It in
uetl.., manneraslreser.ves, as in that Act, all the rights of freemen,
retZe I as inchoate, and all the rights of property. It
ns the same form of local government, mayor, aldermen,
eud tow
th
n-eouncil, and generally the same form with respect
_p,e.r appointment. It gives the same power to appoint
siolss officers, and to give compensation. It makes
Mice. LeselY
the same regulations with respect to trusts and cha-
nt. It gives the same power in respect to the appointment
fund
constables • the same regulation as to the boro9g
end and the payment of officers out of it, and as to imposing
rates,
the leas; ecre are the same restrictions and regulations as to
gulaing out corporate property—there are the same re-
as to as to the disosal of advowsons in the gift of cor-
eoratious ,
is
just. —tnere the same power and. mode of appointing
attra'Fo.s.,, and. generally the same regulations as to the general
inistration of justice. The recorder is made sole judge at
of conscience,
borough sessions. There is some exception as to the courts
euuseienee, which have been found very beneficial in the
towns of Ireland, and which are retained. There is the same
capower vested in the Crown to raise towns into corporations.
rte are the principal points on which there is a general ze agree-
between. the Bills. I will now state the points on which
toereil.a difference between them. The first of these is as
Ittitnie
f qualification, which is proposed to be put upon a different
hone what prevails either in England or Scotland. It
u.'" been considered that to confine the qualifications through-
it Irelend to persons having houses of 101. yearly value
Gould have the effect of defeating the object of the measure,
and it has thereforebeen arranged that such a qualification
should
aPPI
th y to only seven towns in Ireland, the qualification
ee other towns will be only 51. per annum. This regul-
s while it prevents the risk of too large a constituency in
h 'ergo towns, will insure a sufficient constituency in the
304fialer ones. Another difference is a mere necessary change
ualee b • which the duties, which are under the English
3
:.(P to be fulfilled by the overseers of the poor, are, under
.the
fit Act, to be performed by the churchwardens, there being
140-eAuree no such officers as overseers of the poor in he-
m.'" mother alteration is, that which transfers the appoint-
oest of the assistant barristers, which in the English Act is
la
key ;ea in the Judees, to the drown, an alteration which it
"eurl generally thought advisable to make. As the Bill
vdeoriginelly introduced, it was not proposed to appoint any
ermen, but it pleased that House to make an alteration
potstue is this respect. The Common Council had the
aie er given them to elect a certain number of persons
the-ger/nen in each 'place. By the operation of this arrange.
leer,t a greater power was given to one party in thee
te .PlOl than, he was sure, the proposers of the
tchaenegeifiim-
e 'heed they should have over, the other.
Councillors to
instance ,
1)3,, hod
where the number of the elected
aldetie municipal constituency was 12, there would be four
thatresen to he elected by those councillors. Now, supposing
tteolT the councils there were seven elected on one side, they
tu be n
, led to give themselves a greatly preponderating
byt leaving the election of aldermen ; and instead of
a, Parties standing in the proportion of 7 to 5, there would be
11 eon of four to the majority, and they w.ould. stand as
p,,t°,5- This, therefore, was not a fair proportion in the ex.;
the of the- opinion of the place, as had been manifested
lelip ectiou of the town council. It was therefore proposed
toet"is Bill, that the aldermen and the whole of the town
tl,t-t'eil should be elected at once by the burgesses. The 34th
use reserved to Parliament the right to divide certain bo-
-teak'els into wards. This power in the English Bill was given
ei the revising barristers ; but it was intended that this deci-
-40 should be carried into effect by another Bill, to pass dur-
-4,,,th,e Present session. The 55th clause also left to the Lord
te‘enant the appointment of sheriffs. Under the English
those functionaries were elected by the town councils._ H e
hid not Observe how much these officers were connected with
tit: administration of justice, and under the peculiar circum-
tv'exes of Ireland it might be better that they were not elected
4130,,u1ar election. He had stated the grounds upon which he
ought it absolutely necessary why their Lordships should an-
the 4111 the present Bill. He had pointed out how it agreed with
ei;let -with respect to English municipal corporation towns, and
Aft 44 ale ° pointed out how far it differed from the English Bill.
% et this .he should have contented himself with moving that
should be agreed to, if it had not been for the view
it. end for a motion made in another place with respect to
the As he fouled what he alluded to stood on the journals of
shi°tiler House he could call the attention of their Lord-
thelis to it withoet any impropriety, and without a breach of
fat of the House What was proposed in the Bill was,
heAv `"ere should be a reform in the Irish Corporations ; but
aced ties this met ') It was admitted by those who had pur-
e Course he had alluded to in another place that the
tnerltc'teticis as then constituted, and with the state of the
to ex.:3', and with the state of the law, should not be allowed
teseitiat• They contended, however, that there were such dif-
tiejare'll between the two countries, and such bitterness and
aPpii„slties, that it would not be wise to pass the same measure. as
11e e -able to that county as to this. In the observations which
luasletlt called upon to make on this point, he was most. aux-
(itclaZ Preserve a temperate tone, and to avoid any thing like
rise t at'.°ll, or the expression of opinions calculated to give
those° bitter feelings. He would not, therefore, charge
'to tieh'4o adopted the opinions he alluded to with a wish
‘toulaY justice to persons in one part of the empire. . He
w ail' not ea., , they • = =
L that what intenaea was not in unison
rg4,,t,iie course of political conduct they had hitherto
ota er'o, nor would he excite individuals in this or the
aeat-
ecountey to believe that there was an attempt to
th'e,ete pal justice to the two countries. He wished
-act t 0 say a few words independent of those topics which
Neut.. °ear the appearance of personal invective or recri-
,l„i'lealehttl,;__,Bl_ the first place, however, he begged most ells-
', (lir eunet that there might be parts of a territory subject
tale, °minion which might require a different system of
stia Zit, ere
')ta .might be such a at difference in the.civili-
ti,ll the state of property. or.
.religion, or in the
laws Toper or habits of men inhabiting two parts_ of the
he ft-reerPihre_ that undoubtedly they might require different
ae'?ey„, ,p,- overnment.—( Hear, h hear.) r )
r,l'n made this measure he understood. that'
.a proposition had
:•-e *pa ''-te elsewhere to do away entirely with the Municipal..
1114% tho:eatoir in Ireland, and to merge all. the existing rights
, ey with too rese of the country. That it was intended to do
(1/I!sieetitotil ell the remaining Corporations, and to make all
In the gen of the country, but, of course in
tt, thi_ general law
et e 3 to
make provision for the due' administration of
iq toverehrr,tY now in the hands of the Corporations. For
`ie'retatee hind said that he would not make any outbreak
oe ishi eras that he intended to use, he hoped that their
f
A eetr world not say that he departed from the
.line of
.e° 'Oposl'hen Ell observed that he was a little surprised at
%1(1-11 ar, when he recollected the quarter whence it came.
aeas' e_ur: ) He was surprised that such a proposition
hy 'thee •from the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
the itt), •
.as,.tor it was very unlike the course of policy pursued
tit N°lpursued
it was unlike the whole of the course by
ta9eke opposite. He was about to observe some-
thksite point, of which he did not think Noble Lords
tie eY vieui!rp complain ; on the contrary, be thought that
b,,,!! is, sa - ether desire such praise. He then had no hesita.
Vika for3'l Tif,' that the course proposed was rather too bold
la
to etih ae
Ina; the,. . ',lit Hon. Baronet or the Noble Duke, reeo -
4f__wed a me they had hitherto pursued. They had fol-
e4ferd.......eitoirel • cautions policy in the measures they had brought
Beige Period 7:abad_ generally proposed their measures at too
Low,ee,
cst I. time, and they had been too narrow for th
th_ the occasions that had called for them. Thg
itt7.seoll,,'v, • , 74. )tended to go to an oposite extreme, for in
er,e,= ead I).ropoi led the measure wasp larger than was neces-
,4 lt was too soon, in point of time.--( Laughter,
tlat',.o a% Highleur= h ear. ) It was, in point of fact, leaping
the. eed4.o as ens necessary, with a view of getting over
la4,eeetie;:( A 1 lug+. ) He repeated it was not consistent with
ef the Right Hon. Baronet or the Noble
of th
ele• r
sltt:happeareel to him that the proposition emanated from
,ei of pelicy. It emanated from a school for same
rib 4 Ar. tra')ers Of which he entertained great respect, and
at -e teon.
1), e. rutte, the greatest ability. He felt that it came
the fightl,-; Younger leader than either the Noble Duke or
(Ili reeterisl4u. Baronet, and whose forte was not quite so
fors, heave, of an absence of indiscretion or temerity.—
eelt
.1184 he, and a laugh.) If this proposed alt?ration, there 11:41. the Pl,ll suggested to Noble Lords opposite, he would
inei eautie °b_ Duke not to be led away too far from his
ti ea al_ tie polley.___(
tit a
nc. thele TT, Hear, hear, and laughter.) He. ad_
, —got be such differences between the situa-
ilPeo,, rte of the same country that very different courses
Fie gilt he 'Accessary. He admitted that there was a
le etli 4e at
in the two countries.
law sett 41131 .ce of civilisation . •
kt
je:t there was a difference as to the spirit of corn-
-44'1
--'ev4t aritek in the two countries. He admitted

also that there was a great difference as to the disproportion
between the members of the Established Church and other
creeds, which were regarded, he knew, with something like
I alarm. There were also some points of difference astegarded
the law and institutions of the two parts of the empire. For
instance, there was generally a fixed officer to take the chair at
the quarter sessions, who had certain duties to perform, which
were not known in this country. Again, the police force was
different, and there were certain laws which in times of com-
motion and excitement gave greater power to the Government
' of Ireland, and which did not exist in England. Although
those might, in some respects, be called great differences, yet
he begged Noble Lords to recollect that there were also points
of resemblance. He would beg them to recollect that the
two countries were under the same constitution—they were
under the same Parliament—they were under the, same po-
pular control—they were under the same legal mode of
procedure—they were under the same system of trial by
jury, and they were under the same unlimited freedom of the
press.—( Hear, hear.) He begged, therefore, their Lord..
ships to recollect that the , points of resemblance were now
much greater than the points of difference relied on in this
case. And he also begged their Lordships to consider whe-
ther with such points of resemblance they could continue to
govern Ireland peaceably, having the feelings of the majority
of the people against them. He had said that he would not
say anything to excite feelings of animosity between the two
parties, or to create feelings of irritation in the minds of any of
their Lordships. He was sure, however, that Noble Lords
would admit that the feelings of the people of that country
could got be left out of consideration ; and that it ought se-
riously to be considered before anything was done that would
shock or alienate them, but that they ought to do everything
in their power to conciliate them.—( Hear.) He did not
intend to go into the general question of local government, or
proceed to investigate its disadvantages or advantages. He
supposed that it would not be disputed that every civilized
community had availed itself of some system of municipal
government. He apprehended that it was acted upon more
even with ancient nations than with the moderns. Ho be-
lieved that this country had not availed herself so much of it
as other modern nations. He was fully aware that Corpora-
tions in their present form were not essentially necessary to
the growth of powerful communities. They knew that Bris-
tol, and Leeds, and Liverpool, and Nottingham, had grown
up under the administration of local government, but they
also knew that Manchester and Birmingham bad swollen into
a state of opulence almost comparable with that of the me-
tropolis, almost entirely without it. The question, however,
was, whether, after having established municipal governments
in Scotland and England, you are prepared to do without them
in Ireland.—( Hear.) It was a question of discretion as to
whether or not they should be established in those towns in
which they did not now exist, but he thought that it would be a
most unwise and indiscreet dealing with the feelings of the
country to do them away where they did exist.. He did
not intend to go further into this question, as it was not now
before the House; but he had thought it necessary to state as
calmly as he could some of the general principles which he
thought should guide their Lordships in dealing with this
subject. The question was, whether or not there should be a
broad and material difference between the Municipal Govern-
ments of England, and Scotland, and Ireland—whether there
was such a discrepancy between the states of the two coun-
tries as to justify so large a departure from all the institutions
of former times, and from the whole practice and custom of
the country ?—( Hear, hear.) He wished to ask whether the
differences which existed were of such a continued and dura-
ble nature as to have a permanent effect on the situation of
the country ? He did not believe that that was the case, and
he trusted that they would not lose sight of the effect that the
course they intended to adopt with reference to this measure
must have on the feelings and understandings of those for
whom they were legislating.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
The Noble Viscount concluded with moving the second read-
ing of the Bill.
Lord LYNDHURST said before he entered upon the
main subject, their Lordships would permit him to advert to
an observation which had fallen from the Noble Viscount,
which he had repeated several times during the last session,
and which he had now again made use of. It was not fair of
that Noble Lord to impose upon him the charge of his (Vis-
count Melbourne's) offspring.—( Laughter.) He had, un-
doubtedly endeavoured to remedy, as far as he was able, any
defects in the Bill of last session, and to a certain extent, he
had succeeded; but he atilt thought it unfaira in the Noble
Lord to throw upon him the charge of his own offspring.
—( A laugh.) In reference now to the subject matter of the
debate, he had always understood when any proposition for
the reformation of abuses was to be made the plain and clear
course to be taken was, to point out the existing evil, and to
state the remedy which was proposed to meet it, and the effect
which that remedy would produce ; but what he complained
of was, that the Noble Viscount had not told them what would
be the effect of the proposed measure, and he complained
of that because upon the consequences it produced, the utility
of the remedy must depend. He (Lord Lyndhurst) did not
go to the Report, nor did he know what reliance was to be placed
upon that document, but it admitted on all hands that in the
Irish Corporations evils to a very great extent did exist ; they
were not disguised, but open, acknowledged, undoubted evils.
They resolved themselves into exclusion, the administration of
justice being placed in the hands of one party only, and the
mal-administration of the municipal government, in conse-
quence of its being placed in the hands of one party. Those
were the evils that existed ; that was a summary of the in-
conveniences attached to the present system of municipal go-
vernment in Ireland; and he was quite as ready as the Noble
Viscount to say that an adequate remedy ought to be provided.
The existing evils were not denied by the people of this
country ; they were not denied by the Protestants of Ireland ;
they were not denied by the members of the Corporations
themselves ; and the greater part of those members even
wished for a remedy, provided one could be found which would
have a fair and just operation, and would not be the means of
introducing evils of a similar description.—(Loud cheers.)
What was the remedy proposed by the Noble Lord ? He
( Lord Lyndhurst) was sure there was no Noble Lord in that
House who, having attentively considered the subject, would
not feel that, so far from any improvement being effected by
it, the existing evils would only be aggravated. Would the
system of exclusion be remedied ? Would the administration
of justice be taken out of the hands of one party? Would
justice be administered one jot more fairly, more independently
of party and political feeling ? Ho would ask the Noble
Lord to consider the species. of popular feeling which existed
in that country, and then to answer sincerely whether he did
not believe that the evils of the present system in that respect
would, under the proposed one, be aggravated tenfold ?
( Hear, hear, hear.) What, then, would be the consequences
of adopting the Bill now before their Lordships? The Cor-
porations would not then, it was true, consist of Protestants—
it was true they would not consist of Conservatives; but they
still would.be exclusive ; they would consist of one party, and
that the anti. Church party—those who were daily seeking
the dissolution of the empire, and the overthrow of the Pro-
testant Church—that party which, for want of a better name,
he must denominate the Radical party.—(Loud Cheers.)
What was the scope, what was the object of this measure ? It
was true it would take all municipal power out of the hands
of the Protestants, but it would only be to transfer it to the
grasp of their opponents, whom he had just described to their
Lordships. Would, then, the proposed measure lead to any-
thing more than to a direct transfer of power ? Their Lord-
ships had already seen the effect of a similar Bill in England ;
they had seen in what manner the municipal elections and ap-
pointments had been conducted in England. Let not the
warning, then, be lost. What had been the object of those
who framed, and those who had countenanced, and those upon
whom the measure had been imposed? Why, the object of all
was power—power, which had been the object of every mea-
sure of reform that had been introduced into Parliament, from
the measure for the amendment of Parliamentary representa-
tion down to the Bill upon which their Lordships were then
deliberating.—( Loud cheers.) In each of those measures the
object was the same—to dispossess one party of power, and to
give it to their opponents.—( Cheers.) Nor was that fact dis-
guised by the adherents of the Government, though his Ma-
jesty's Ministers themselves did not perhaps avow it ; but the
case with which it had been accomplished had been far and
wide resounded in triumph.—( Hear.) If he wished for an
illustration of his assertion that the only obiect of all the Re-
form measures had been power, he need only advert to the
discussions which had latterly taken place, both there and
elsewhere, upon the appointment of municipal magistrates
under the new English Corporation Bill; and, after a careful
and anxious consideration of those discussions, he felt bound
to say that he could come to no other conclusion than that
those appointments had been made solely upon party and po-
litical considerations.—(Cheers.) And if, then, they found
that even in so sacred and important a duty as the fair and
impartial administration of justice the attainment of political
power had been the governing object, how could they avoid the
conclusion, that in their measures also the object should be only
a transfer of power for their own advantage, the suppression
of their opponents—to trample down into the dust the Conser-
vative power of the kingdom, and to transfer it to the Radi-
cals? If the consequence then in England was such as he
bad stated, he would beg of them to consider what was likely
to be the effect of a similar system in Ireland ? There was
party feeling in England, but it was the mere whisper of a tem-
perate breeze when compared with the whirlwind of political
passion in that country. Their Lordships knew what usually
took place, the scenes which invariably occurred, at the elec-
tions for Members of Parliament in Ireland; let them, then,
only, remember what was the qualification proposed by this
Bill, and he would ask if the same intimidation and the same
violence would not, beyond all doubt, be exercised at the elec-
tions and nominations for the new town councils—( Hear, hear)
.and if there would not be at those elections also displayed
in all its might against the Protestant interest the most for-
midable engine of political power that was ever wielded in
any country, he meant the Roman Catholic Priesthood 2
( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) He remembered the time
when their influence had been denied, but it was now acknow-
ledged and boasted, and an engine more mischievous, more
terrible, was never let loose upon any country.—( Hear, hear.)
But be did not like to descend into particulars of that kind,
because he knew that their Lordships had read the evidence
with respect to that subject, and he knew what an impression
it had made upon the country at large, and what an impression
it must make upon all their Lordships. The exertion of that
influence had not been confined to the ordinary classes of the
priesthood ; but he found also in the Report of the Committee
on another subject, and of the Carlow Committee, evidence
of a Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church having issued
circulars to every priest in his diocese, directing them to exert
themselves to the utmost in favour of particular candidates.
In the county of Hereford, with which a Noble Marquis oppo-
site was connected, with the exception of the pastors of three
Chapels, the Roman Catholic priests had uniformly denounced
every one under their direction who did not vote in favour of
the candidates they supported, as enemies to their religion and
their God. Again there was the evidence of a person who had
given his testimony before a Cortunitteo of the House of Corn..

mons as to the manner in which he had addressed his congrega-
tion. The extract was to the following effect, and contained the
words of a Roman Catholic priest to his flock :—" All who
vote at the election who are Romdn Catholics, shall vote .for

Wallace and Fairrie. We will make our stand at the hustings
in our capacity as priests, and we shall know the man that
dares to vote against us, and shall watch the recreant till he
goes to his grave.—(Cheers.) Yes, upon the Catholic slave
we will set a mark who will vote against God and his coun-
try." In that spirit had every election in Ireland for the last
three years proceeded ; and was it not sure that the same
principle would pervade the popular and annual municipal
elections ? Their Lordships knew the fearful effects of a
Roman Catholic denunciation; they knew that the party
against whom it proceeded was excluded from all communion ;
that no one could live under its influence ; that he must fly
the country or die. Never, surely, was there an engine of
more power in any town or country. What, then, must be
the inevitable consequence of the present Bill? Why, that
the Corporations would consist exclusively of one class of
persons. Again, what course was likely to be pursued with
respect to the magistrates? Who were likely to be recom-
mended to the Crown as fit persons for the office of magis-
trates ? Who but those that entertained political views of the
same description as the Town Council, and what could their
Lordships expect after what they had seen respecting the
appointment of magistrates in England—what could they
expect but to find the administration of justice again in the
hands of a party, and the whole municipal Government of
the country in the hands of a party—a party more in-
flamed, more bigoted, more violent ? After the most
calm and anxious consideration_ he was completely satisfied

_ .
that if the object were to get rid of a system by which the
administration of justice was exclusively vested in one party,
FO far from getting rid of it the present measure would only in-
crease and inflame the evil. He might appeal, in confirmation
of his opinion, to the evidence of a person-_a witness upon such
a subject free from all doubt—the evidence of that great di-
rector of the Movement party—the director and controller of

. _
his Majesty's Government in Ireland—( A laugh and cheers)
—that powerful one, upon whose word depended whether they
stood or fell—what did hb say ? His words were upon the
subject of the English Corporations. " They had got an in-
stalment—a great and glorious instalment—which would
establish in every borough in England schools and societies of
political agitation." He (Lord Lyndhurst) might appeal,
therefore, to his (Mr. O'Connell's) evidence in support of his
position as indubitable. Having made those observations in
reference to the appointment of magistrates he would now
come a little more to particulars. The Noble Lord had
stated in what respects the English and Irish Bills corre-
sponded—in what also they differed. The first point to
which he had drawn attention was in reference to the qualifi-
cation ; and there was a difference in that respect, said
the Noble Viscount, because no such a thing as rating
existed in Ireland. Now it was rather curious that the
Noble Lord should have made that statement, when
he (Lord Lyndhurst) found in one of the clauses these words :
Nor unless such occupier shall have paid or discharged all
such grand jury and municipal cesses, rates, and taxes, if
any, which shall have become legally due and payable by
and been demanded from him in respect of such premises,
&c. It was exceedingly curious that the Noble Lord should
have made that statement; but the clause continued, " ex-
cept such as shall have been imposed or become due within
three calendar months next before such enrolment." Their

Lordships would know, then, according to the qualification,
what class of persons would be the electors in the new Irish
Corporations. It was proposed by the new measure that all
persons holding any tenement of the yearly value of 51. in
certain boroughs should be entitled to vote. But there
was another departure from the English Bill, not a little
singular, though not noticed by the Noble Viscount. That
Noble Lord had said there was a difference in respect to
those who were to make out the list of burgesses,' because,
said he, in Ireland there are no overseers, and that the duty
had therefore been given to the churchwardens. There the
Noble Lord's explanation ceased. Now he (Lord Lynd-
hurst) should not have complained if the duty had been en-
trusted to the churchwardens, but when he looked to the Bill
be found that the churchwardens were to fulfil that duty only
for the first year; but upon every subsequent year who, did
their Lordships think, was the person upon whom the task
was to devolve ? Not upon the churchwardens, but upon the
town clerk—(Hear, hear)—and who was the town clerk?
By what tenure did be hold his office? Why, during the plea-
sure of the town council. The town clerk 1 Why he must ne-
cessarily be the creature of the town council.—( Hear.) With
the same politics, the same views, in fact perfectly identified
ith the town council ; their servant, their slave. To that

person, then, the important duty of making out the lists of the
burgesses was assigned. Why so? The persons who framed
the measure must have had the English Bill before them; the
the difference between the two Bills must have attracted their
attention, the alteration must have been made by design, and
the object must have been to avoid putting the power in the
hands of so free and independent a body as that to which in the
English Bill it had been entrusted. —(Cheers.) So much
then for the similarity between the two Bills in particular. He
would now refer to the third point of difference, and to which
the Noble Viscount had but very slightly alluded. By the
English Bill their Lordships very carefully provided for the
division of the boroughs into wards, and were peculiarly
anxious in maintaining that no election should take place
previous to such division into wards. Their Lordships
succeeded in carrying their point, notwithstanding the
opposition of the Noble Viscount. The Noble Viscount had
that evening passed over that part of the subject with some
general observations, the scope of which he could not quite
understand, and their Lordships would doubtless be astonished
to learn that there appeared the following clause in the present
Bill :—" Be it enacted, that every borough in the said sche-
dules ( A and B) shall be divided into the number of wards
mentioned in such schedule, in conjunction with the name of
such borough, provided that Parliament, by an Act to be passed
in the present session, shall direct in what manner such division
shall be made," &c. According to that provision, then, if
those who directed the movement in the other House—(Loud
cheers)—those who directed his Majesty's Government should
choose to oppose the division into wards, a* the Bill stood at
present, it would be impossible for any division to be made,
and the whole matter must be left in the management of a few
men. Those, then, were a few samples of the differences which
existed between the two Bills ; and those who framed the mea-
sure having the English Bills before them, evidently with one
only aim, the increase of their power, made such departures from
the English measure. With respect to some other points of
the Bill, alterations from the Bill, as it originally stood,
lied been made ; a provision by which the town council
had absolute power over harbour dues and similar charges
was objected to and conceded with little opposition. Again,
in respect to the sheriffs, it had been objected to allowing
their nomination to be vested in the Crown, because there
were duties—as the summoning of juries—in the performance
of which it would be highly inexpedient that they should be
influenced by party motives : that point had been abandoned ;
and it was admitted dangerous, in that respect, to apply to
Ireland the same principles which had previously been applied
to the corporations of England. With respect to another
point : by the English corporations the management of the
whole police force was entrusted to the corporation ; and so
originally it stood in the Irish Bill ; but the impropriety of that
enactment was proved, and its absurdity also was quickly
pointed out ; for, whilst another Bill was going through the
other House, by which the whole police force would be entirely
removed, it was the height of absurdity to establish in particu-
lar towns a separate police force ; that provision was accor-
dingly abandoned, and with the abandonment it was said that
the Constabulary Bill was one ground for that abandonment.
They had not, however, made the concession with a good grace,
for they left a little fragment—the watch.—(Laughter.) But
those watchmen—they all knew what a watchman was—
( Laughter)—had no confined jurisdiction, their limits were not
within one town or county; their jurisdiction extended over
all the towns through twelve counties, from Charleville to
Limerick. The observations he had made upon this measure
were not applicable solely to his Majesty's Ministers, but to all
who had any share in the preparation of the measure, and
bringing it into that shape and form in which it appeared be-
fore their Lordships. The inference he drew was this, that the
principal, if not the only, thing sought for, by the establish-
ment of these councils was the erection of schools of agitation
for the purpose of increasing the power of those who proposed
them, of forwarding their views ; and, finally, of effecting the
separation of the two countries. The Corporations were, by
Ow provisions of the Bill completely deprived of power. They
had nothing to do do with the administration of criminal jus-
tice in the Courts. The Judges were to be appointed by the
Crown, the Corporations having no right at all to interfere in
the matter. Again, with respect to the administration of
civil justice, the Corporation had nothing to do with it. The
Judges in the civil Courts were to be appointed by the
Crown, the Corporations being shut out from the exercise of
any discresion, or even opinion in the matter. They also had
nothing to do with the police—with its appointment or control.
All this was vested in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant ab-
solutely, the Corporations having no control whatever. In
like manner, as regarded the sheriffs, the Corporations had
nothing to do with the appointment of these important officers,
and no sort of control over them in the discharge of
their duties. With respect to charitable trusts, here, too,
they were divested of all control. All Church pa-
tronage was taken away from them. They were left no
power in such minters. They were to have nothing to do with
the management, the repair, or superintendence of the har-
bours on the coast ; nothing to do with chambers of corn-
' Inerce, and other local matters of great importance in these
corporations. There was an Act of Parliament, the 9th of
George the IV. to which he wished to call their Lordships'
attention. In IV.,
the watching, cleansing, lighting, and
paving of towns was not managed upon the same principle or
in the same manner as it was here. The 9th of George IV.
provided for the manner in which these duties were to be exe-
cuted in the towns and cities of Ireland. The new corpora-
tions, therefore, as proposed by this Bill, were unnecessary, as
regarded these objects. What, then, could be the object of
appointing them? What purpose could it answer? It could
be for no purpose but the establishment of legal assemblies for
the purposes of political discussion and loca agitation. He
would now endeavour briefly to point out the course which, in
his opinion, it would be advisable for their Lordships to pursue
in this most important subject. He had no motive and no
to defend the corporations of Ireland as they now existed.
There was, he believed, scarcely one man found in the other
House of Parliament to stand up and defend the present sys-
tem of corporations in Ireland. All admitted that it was vicious,
th:t it needed amendment, that it could not be suffered any
huger to exist. The only question upon which difference
of opinion existed was, as to the nature of the remedy to be
applied.—(Hear.) In their address to the Crown, in an-
swer to the Speech from the Throne at the opening of the
present session of Parliament, their Lordships said that they
1 were ready to apply a remedy to the abuses complained of in
the existing state of the corporations of Ireland. This pledge
they gave, and the time was nosy come for redeeming it, by