The Sun.
London, England, 1825-05-18 00:00:00

pe.
CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

The Order of the Day having,been read,
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE moved the second reading
'of the Catholic Relief In doing so he should not long
-occupytheir *Lordships' attentkneefter the numerous petitions
which had been presented, and the prolonged debate, which
had already taken place. The Noble Earl then was understood
to say, that he disapproved of the abolition of the Elective
-Franchise, and that if .any electors were disfranchised, there
would he an end to every thing like,freedom in the English
Constitution. Ile should poetpone further observations till a
latet period of the discussion:
Lord COLCHESTER contended, that the inquiry instituted
by both Houses on the subjece.of Ireland, although satisfactoyy
in some points, had not removed
,the Parliamentary objectioes
to the measure ; which it was evident, from the number of pe-
-titions on their Lordships' table, was at present 'adverse' to the
general sense of the country. He maintained that the utmost
readiness had always been displayed to grant to the Catholics
a full participation in all the enjoyments and advantages of
the Constitution, with the exception of those which led to po-
litical power. Whatever could be dope to satisfy them within
those limits ought' to bedone. They hid the free exercise of 'their
religion, but if they wished for additional protection for it,
Parliament should be ready tugrant it.. They. enjoyed all the
rights and advantages of property ; but if they required. minor
regtdations to- make that property more secure, those regellae
Lions should be made. As to the Army and the Navy they
long since been thrown open to them. Beyond this it would
not be prudent to go. But the present Bill granted every
thing leading to pOlitical power, with no-other exceptions than
the Chancellorship of England and the Lord. Lieutenancy. of'
.Ireland, without giving the smallest security in return. The
Noble Lord then examined ;tune of. the publications of Dr.
Doyle,- and pointed out their general hostility to the Church of
England. He qUoted the oath taken by Catholic Priests and
Prelates, to shew that they bound themselves to disclose the
Pope's' counsel to no man. He argued from the.sentithent4 of
the most enlightened modern authorities of the CatholleChureli
even of Bessuet himself, that its spirit of exclusion and domi-
nation was not changed. He objected to establishing a perpe-
tually endowed Catholic Church in this kingdom, and to the
mode of election and appointment of the Bishops.- The- Ca-
tholics denied to the King of England the, privileges which
every Catholic Monarch in Europe possessed, and which they',
themielves had no hesitation of confiding to him as King'of
Hanover ! Tlie.Noble Lord then was understood to allude to I
the formation of establishments in.various parts of the country
by a society which had been banished tiom 'the dominions of
most Catholic Princes, and which was galninglarge possessions
without law, if not against thelaw. In other countries the-des;
potism of the throne counteracted the efforts of such a society;
but here the equality of right which prevailed left it free to act.
As to securities," the best was to prevent participation its politi-
cal' power, and the surest way of emancipating Ireland, would
be to remove, the extreme subdivision and underletting of land
in that country. The Noble Lord, 'after calling upoh the House
not to discontent a large proportion-of Protestants by passing
tile present measure, concluded by moving that the Bill be read
this day sik months.
The Marquis of ANGLESEA had hoped that every conces-
sion made to the .Catholics would have excited in them a cor-
responding feeling of conciliation towards their Protestant bre-
thren. He hoped they would have shewn a patient and a meek
spirit; but owned.that he had beendisappointed. Every con-
cession had.only produced greater demands and a higher tone,
and judOng from the language of the late Association, Eman-
cipation was not meant as a mere release from disabilities, but
as a means• to obtain the ascendancy in thecountry. Here he
would take ,his stand: If there must be a trial of strength, he
would wish to fight it in the best position which he could find;
and none.was so good as that in which the country now stood.
Yet he was a Sincere friend to the Catholics, and would wish
to place them on a footing with their fellow-subjects, but it
must not be at the expence of Protestants..- Without proper
guarantees he could not consent to grant Emancipation, and
the-present Bill did not appear to him to offer such guarantees.
If he understood it rightly he did not object to the principle,
neither should he object to the regulation of the Elective Fran-
chise, nor to a provision for the Catholic Clergy. ' Were a Pro-
testant King and Government, however, to pay for the Ca-.
tholic Clergy without having any sight to interfere in the ap.
pointment of Bishopi ? • The Sacrifice should not be all on one
side, and coecessiona should be mutual. Unused to address
their Lordships, lie had only wished to explain the grounds on
which he should give his vote, and his conviction of the neces-
sity which now existed to support the Protestant Establish-
ment and the Constitution of the country.
The Marquis CAMDEN entered into a detailed history of,
his former views and feellings with respect-to Catholic Em--
a-ncipation, 'in 'order to show' that althoughhe had .opposed it
when he had .considered the . period untimely for -pestling
it, yet lie had never been hostile to the principle. He re-'
- collected with satisfaction that he was the person who had
established the Cottage orMayboOth.'The Noble Marquis then
read several lettere,, sorne.written to him in 1795, and one by
him t-i" Mr. Ole, dated Junel; 1797. In the latter he was under-
stood t6sley (for. very little of what. fell from the Noble Marquis.
*as andiable below the Bar on account of his position and the.
crowd of strangers.) that the Protestant Dissenters in Irelandivere
at that
thelics diseontented, I and that under' those circumstances no',
period imbued with Republican principles and the ca-
concesions.ought to be made as long as things fait-Mined' SO.-.
In other conimunicatione afterwards he had had, -in his capacity
of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to give his testimony-to the spirit
of loyalty displayed by all classes of Roma Cathedies, when
Ireland was threatened with French invasion. It was impossi-
ble that it should have been greater.- He was one of those
who-
had thought it theirdu y't lira, to retire.. There had bean
an intention tindOubtedri; sat the time of the Union, teeplace the
'Catholics on a footing 'of equality with the Priatestants but-un-
,fortituatelei;thegreae Minister. who had conceived that pldn
found itemPOeiibleto carry.,ll Veto effect, and consequently tee-
deied his reaigriation:' Weteonrdegree Of expectatiori battle*
excited amongst the Catholics at the time ; was it wonderful

therefore that there should have been ebullitions of feeling in a
country where such disappointment had been experienced.—
The Noble Marquis then examined the late declarations of the
Catholics, since the Association had been put down : their re-
nunciation
of the temporal power of the Pope, and the hopes
which they had been entitled to conceive, from the manner in
which the Commons had taken up their cause. He was as sin-
cere a friend to the Established Church as any man could be,
and if he saw any desire to injure it; he.should be the.first to
step forward in its defence. But he saw no proof of such a de-
sire, and from the affection which he felt for Ireland, although
he had kiiOwriber in 'ciiiiVietilienaiid tempest, he hoped that the
measure would be carried, and thought that there was no better
time for passing it than the present.
'Earl DARNLEY agreed with his Noble Friend that this
was the time for passing the measure, and there were many
reasons why-it should not be delayed. -He regretted .that his.
Noble and gallant Friend (the Marquis of Anglesey) should
have titiffered the intemperance of langtiage of the'Catholic
Association M'alter his sentiments on this great question. Of
all men his Noble and (iallant'Friend ought to be the one least
impressed with an apprehenSion of danget' He might alio find
that the position which he had taken was an untenable -one,
ot nwiths ending all Ids, military gallantry:- C-dfi-etasleins
• the Catholics had frequently been refused upon the same
arguments .which had been used upon the present occa-
sion. In the summer of 1792, when the country was in an eM-,
barrassed state, the Catholics were told that they could expect
no concession' to he made to them. The • Protestants of Ire-
land: told. them that their claims could not be granted ; yet
in six months from that time a recommendation in their fa-
j your was made 'from the Throne. If ever these claims-were-
granted it-nertainly should be in time of peace, and not post-
poned till period of danger- and calamity arrived. The in-
quiry into which a COmmittee of their Lordships had entered,
he had frequently recommended to them ; and he thought they
could see no cause to repent of their having at length followed
his advice, He took a very different view. of the result of that
inquiry from the Noble Lord who had alluded to it-that even-
ing. Catholic Emancipation,- he told them, was a:Mere pre-
tence to obtain something else.; but what evidence could he,
find to back such an opinion ?- The effect of passing this mea-
sure would' be to brink into Parliament several very worthy
and talented Gentlenien,-and wharthe'worse would they be for
that? eellad.llr. O'Connell been brought up inthat pure re-
formed' religion 'in : which: their Lordships were reared, he
should say that a man et' his learning and theolegical.. acquire-
ments would . not have disgraced the opposite Bench upon
which the Riht Reverend Prelates of the 'Establised Church
sat. 'But lie knew not wherefore 'it should be eidet that the
call for Emancipation was a mere pretence. In' tlfe Minntei
of Evidence before their Lordship' Committee would „be
found' the testimony of Mr. Blake, who told them that -he
considered the Proteittuit Church of Ireland ,as the great
litik 'Thief' chained England and Ireland together ;' that if he
thought Catholic Emancipation would"disturb, the Protestant
settlernent, he, would not- recommend their Lordships to-great
it. He therefore . (Lord Darnley) gave a flat denial. to the
assertion that it was Meant .to be used es'. a stepping-stone
to something higher.- So long a§'property was in this:country
the basis of representation, there 'remit be'be an`- inferiority
of numbers on the bide of the Catholics. The natural
weight and influence of property would .always. prevent
their outnumbering the Protestants in Parliament: 'He was
'so convinced of this, that' if double the probable numbers were
to be the consequence of the measure, he •should still support
it • A • Noble Lord' had adverted to the 'Coronetiort Oath' as
a bar to the passing of this measure: NOw •he crust confess
he was surprised that that Noble Lord, or Any one should
have been entertained the idea' for one moment, thett-eileteiCaieis-
nation Oath -obstructed the granting of civil power to-the -Catho-
lics, or to any portion of his Majesty's subjects. Tina Corone-
tiOn Oath, if he rightly understood it, was- directed solely; :to
the maintenanceof the Protestant Establishment, and lie did
not see how that could interfere with tho removal of civil disa-
bilities. With respect to the number of petitions:, which
,liad
been presented, England had .not been very forward inehese.
.Neither was he at all satisfied that they represented the feelings
'of the party from wI ':h they came. Petitions of an opposite
nature had leen presented in almost every Case. One tharday
they had had from London and Westminster: Besidesehe be- •1
lieved,' that if a petition were proposed for so extravagant *par-
pose as praying for the remota of the Noble and Learned Lord
(the Lord Chancellor) from his . Mejesty.'-s Councils, it would
find signatures. . A .different spirit,. he knew was rising fast in,
Ireland—a spirit friendly to the Catholic Claims, The.Pna-
teetants of that country were hilly persuaded, that with
respect to this question things could not remain there in. their
present state. Either this Bill must. be pissed or a new Penal
Law. If they passed the Bill. -Ireland would become -a-tower,
of strength to the Empire—a tower raised upon the affections
of the people. 14 on thecontrary, they kept up this perpetual
blister upon- that country, a new-.army would be necessary.
A' triple garrison Would be requisite if they postponed{ the
remedy till a period of difficulty- and danger arrived. They
should take advantage of the present time of peace-411e op-
- portunity might not come again. It should not be forgotten that
the measure came for the second time recommended: to them
by the Representatives of the people of this country ; and
im-
plored their Lordships to Rise no time in according to their wishes,
in this respect. , :j

The Earl•of LONGPORD.said, that in giving his. decided,
opposition to the measure he:begged to disclaim hostility to the'
Catholics. He had.no objeCtion to givitigehem.civil rights, bud
he could not consent to entrustiegeCtitholics with .politicel
power in a free Protestant country.—(Hear, hear rea-;
sons were not founded on the religion's tenets of the sect, .he{
did.not 'Wish to. touch their speculative opinions, ,and lie: yeas+
determined they should not touch' his ; bus he abjured the
tical . consequences inseparable from the possession of power,
-by that religion. Ihow:was it possible for them, to drew the!
line of demarcation as to where the spiritual—where the poll-,
tical influence began ? If not, the only way was to oppose. con-
cessions to the Catholics generally. The Catholic- Priesthood
were always jealously and eagerly employed in-quest of politi-
Cal power, and the power they exercised over the,people was
unlimited. • With all. this influence the -Catholics :refused to'
submit to that controul which our own establishment !yielded ;
and what view were:they to take, of this _refusal,-iwben' they,
coupled.withit the fact that.they admitted; of sitth
.controul
elsewhere?--.(Bear, hear!)—He objected *to the .preamb.le, of
this Bill. It told the -truth—but not :the whole aruth.. it
said that the Bill was for the removal of certain
.disabilitiese
it should have been added" and for the investment. of certain.
Dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church_with power, capaci-
ties, privileges, and immunities."—( Hear, bear 1)--lie knew that
there were amongst the Catholic Laity many distinguished ex.'.
captions to the subjection in which'smne were held. by the Cft-
tholic Priests. But they were not there to pronounce eulogiums.
or compliments, but legislate for all parties as far as that could
be done. None should be excluded from power, excepting
those in whose possession of power there would, be dan-
ger. No other Dissenters from the. Established Religion'
were of the same character as the Catholics in this respect.-i—i
They regarded the Protestants as rebels- to their- faltii,and
despoilers of their property. Other. :Diameters. were voluntary
seceders from our faith, but this was not the case with. the Ca-
tholics. They had heard much of the justrights of the Catho,
lies; but he denied that they _had any title upon that ground,,
for justice could never requireahat they .should concede the
interests
.of the many- to the few. There had been a kind
of threat used Upon the score of necessity e which, &intended
as a threat, 'would, ha was sure, array: a great many against
the cause.--( Hear !)—The country, under her existing inssitn.
Lions, had advanced.to a state of prosperity and glory which
had never been equalled ;. and the Irish were participating in:that prosperity: Udder 'these tircurnitamlces,,il4 ought to
have adequate proof of the advantages of this innovation, be.
ing somewhat commensurate with the risk which it was
proposed: they :should intur.•* It- was said they ought to sup:
port thisßill because it came from the other house. There.
were 'many eases: in which that would bet great, reeernmenda-
don ; butthey Were now, he thought, called upon tOl'exereble
one of the most useful privileges of that:Hoose, in arresting a
pernicioUs measure in its passage through the Legislature. The
Bill was not the work of that Htenst-,-iitit 'of 'a triiiing;*.hesi-
tating majority, not tariounting to one-teventieth. of -their letum..
berm. Ought they then to pass a Bill which would
.be irrevo
cable, pot heated by fhe'sense of 'the- country; anilliiireVly
the sensetelthe -House of 'Commons? 'rliere'Would soon be
Ceestitutional made of taking the senses of time country upon
this measure ; and he doubted not their tordshipti would thin
see that -they were justified in' rejecting it: The- Country
would be_ roused_from their .supineness, and' .nkit allow.tht it
dearest interests to slip through their fingers. Without a de.
ailed Protestant' ascendancy in' this country, there 'gas- no
security foe' Protestant interests. He was afttisfied that the
right for the_ proposed change did not exist, necessity did not
exact it, expediency did deiriand • it; conciliation would not
follow, the public welfare would not be iatteased, nor would
peace be promoted.—( Hear, hear !)
-The Bishop of LANDiFF- spoke against the Bill, but in
so low a tone as to be quite inaudibletelow the bar.
The,Piellesp of NOR wick{ called upon the House to pause
etc they leered upon persevering in that ey.stem•of cruel.a'nt'i
unprovoked insults and injuries.whicle year-after' year-they had
so long contieued to visikppon five. millions of their.fell6,i-
-countrymen. Ifthekingdorn-were-mot ilitivour of this mea-
sure, where, hertsked,•were the'CotititylPetitione'llgeinetit
If the Cimstitution could not supPortM without a violation
of the principles of Christian feeling, Widelhired alteration.; He
felt that the great dictate, " Love-thy neighbour as thyself,"
should never be forgotten. He- ought b-e told that the conse-
quence dr the admissiion Of theßortan Catholics to 'the irivw
leges they required - weitild'he ihfurioua to the Iletablisited
Church, his dri-Wei• was, atirldly ndreotlt eh'ad'no chartn 'for
him, he had con tin tted the half *eta tote;.end -SOS top
otti to change. The Bill, in his opinion, was an act of justice

to a large portion of his Afajeity's subjects, and therefore .enti-
tied to his support.
Lord CARI3ERY, in a very low tone of voice,
_ opposed the
Bill. If the Roman Catholics were sincere they could not
give the securities the Bill required.
The Bishop of CHESTER rose to make a few observations
upon the measure, which he considered to be of the greatest icc-
portance. In whatever point of view he looked at it, the im-
pression on his mind was that it was full of danger to the
Church establishment. The Right Rev. Prelate felt some diffi-
dence in opposing himself to many of those persons whose viz-•
tues he revered, and whose friendship he highly valued. In
the course of his studies he had been induced to change his opi-
nion respecting the Catholic religion. He had always been the
advocate of civil and religious liberty : . but when he became
acquainted with the doctrines of tile Church of Rome, and
refle-Cted'on the numberless evils inflicted_- by. Popery on the
Protestants, 'he was convinced .that the, ecclesiastical : thunder
was still ready to strike when opportunity offered. It
Might be said 'he came to the discussion of that night not an.,
impartial judge. He Chine, in the opinion of some Noble
Lord interested, and that. his interest Tlity in oppoiingethe
What right had any one to impute to the Protestant BA*.
tof En-glatil a base and sordid' intention ?; What ground visa
there to justify, such an assertion ?, Had they everealteten
:worthy motives in their public conduct? Was it interest which
indnced the ;levet 'Bishops to oppoie the arbitrary proceedings
ate Popish King, 'and prefer inrprisonment to a violation of:
duty ? No ! It, was. honest ambition to defend the cause of
-religion and • the public welfare. • The Right Rev.'Prelafe ea
pressed a hope_thats the .same spirit would animate, the succes-
sors• of Abase great inen, and- ehat they might ,stand forward.
ambitious to prove themselves sentinels and champions of the
Established Chtirche If disposed to retort; he might Say some
Noble-Lords supported the. measure from temperal causes at-
tached. ,to themselves, he he should pass over such ineinua-
dons' because they' slid no good. They had heard great deal
64'. the: injustice of. ,depriving six millions of, fellOw-strbjects.ef
their rights. What were those indisputable rights If they
had any claim to the rights contended for, those who withlieht
them -might be justified if they did it for the public good:—
The question was, whether it was, wise to exclude teportion of:
their fellow-subjects from' political power. He could see no
political. injustice in 'withholding that 'pofVer. Civil 'rights in
that • case ...were foreclosed by,. public expediency.. -.But the
most extraordinary fact was, that the advocates. of the bill,
who called so lOudly for civil rights, had robbed 'the tiitholict
• of one of the %.dearest.rightsi, namely' that.•of the•elective
fran-
chise. The Catholics theensoleee also cot-vented eo.be,expelled
from the office of Lord' High Chan-Cellel% With' respect to -re-
ligioits'epinions, the 'ltoltiltri''CathOh'esihrere that- ground
disqualified from holding high political, office& in. a ;Pstotestant
Government. Anotherapiesticin was whether the danger which
tr preSseupori them was such 'ai' ought to induce 'the' House to
venture on great' tiolatton of!sconetitusionaheprintiples ? lie
might also ask whether the proposed Bill would be the means of
pacifying the Irish people;? The last of these questions- was most
important. That unhappy• country was suffering under oda-
mityh Therextreirie distress of the-pettentlixf hind-the bad state
of. society, was; the eause qf all Asia mieeryr, ..The chief propriee.
tors left-the soil, and took, from it annually four millions of-mo..
ney. Tenantwas tenafiroiliich -,elineezed froth the oc-
cupier °Effie soilmerethan the. value-of :the soil -; in short, the
state of;so.ciely Ireland yee hot to be coeeal by the on their
fable:. ItWas to'be cured by equitable ariatigeriientS, a better
system of Revenue Livwl;;;lind;•lasteotolk,a return of the natu.
raleproprietorn_ef_lle soil. That was theXenapcipiation Ire-
land wanted; it would rescue her sons from idleness, tr.-Tali-Th.
duetrypr rerous, the;peOfele theit renice
dies were applied, and thepeople ii-nprOved by education, they
miff lincolne to. Parlinroepteand reskforsadmissiotreo the ;trivia
lees Vihiet at present:they were not gualifled folloSseis.''Some
'Years tinee the Herman Catholice began-to 'talk ;Of
Lion, which at the present day washmtletkood' to inedieqiiithint
less than the reethration;oro-Rdrinin•Clitholic Church, and the
recatneiror ferfeiteel landS. The Right Rev. Prelate called
rmemetheir -Lord-ships to-reflect what would he- the-dis-appointa
ment of the Rieman Cathelk9ponnletieus, ;when they rfound the
measure (if it should be carried) would not produce she oh-
jectAtiayl canceled tiracquiie.l •hTli6y! would .fliid they? owed
• all. their:disappointment to:a fay 'Agitators, who, had -east this
leaveninto the mass of Irish misery to prsalune Mere fertnen-
tation,sand:..rise, upon the :surface-. of conflicting...e'en:tents.—
Those who took upon them to-direct-the Irish peasantry had
concealed from.- them knowledge • which-w 041 haver pee vetete ct
misrepresentation. The object el, .tioaie narties -wes..o.-hst*ish
theshßoman Catholic Church on: the,rnins ofi•Protestaatipty,....,.-
frh,Catitolic..weula oevetrea.till.ite.nad got
.possession of ti ,e
Protestant religion. His hope was that the object might., of
be .gaineel,...hut thetethe leishepopulationeavould he
ened, and see their real intfercati did not lead to disputes with
their Protestant brethren:; 3-fe, was assures\ this suynhaad Any-
; dyne would not' prove-airetnetiyi • -It would; dot- curb_ tuns per_
turbethfeelings in Ireland.- nth' horilahipe could.rot phssahe
BilL Actives not made to produce a remedy iesometising more
was wanting than the-Bill, expressed. They.llll :knew what
dangerous tiotionn Wereabread „about Church property. They
all knew what the Irish House of Coutmons. did.on that subject,
and he might ask what mi ht not be done with thirty or forty
lrotnatirailfairll em ems o Ihtripact
body, ; like Ant ..."Thiertentoue cornet,: ,whose; horrid .glare
hroughePekilence and Oati!s". dad they nd grdtind 'to 'fear
for the Church .property ?-4.a0 One eould say it, would nisi- be
in danger. If their -Lordshipis' aei-e' desirous pf lu:towing the
sentiments which' 'animated' the •CathOlic- 'pOptelition, they
should attend to their ntdetiugs; sind-hear their lea .s execrate
the ProteStratthuieli: 'They cotaidered it 'an hiChbus. One
5a theiretrators had used• the foll Owing words-." She /Mid!.
and nothing but the ritentit)re(df lilleYniahief she has committed
will survive. ‘Vhen:the day of hendisolution shall be at hand,
will venture to Aupp94 ber:27 • The R.,ight
Reverent Prelate citeci other olessyasions applied to the titab-
hailed Church, showing „thee hatred, enterfaine.d.,:ln, Gaillelice •
and adverted to a petition,.freinetil*enoCllttepee?;ereted:;on the
last day of Alay, 1824: The Roman Catholics, iraatliat Peti-
tion, expressed a desire to abolish all tithes. The writings of
-3-:-KhLh,--naid-to be-the-Doyle-, were also cited and compared
with.theievielence of that switngsser What! was, AO be, said of a
nian t!YlT'ocast flrebrandl inthfhe Prinestant Church, •dritl, when
he caine betbre their laOrilSitiPlas-a Witness sOftened dotra all
'he bad said. He passed frortil!kr: Doyle to the PoP'e"s'snpre-
intiey. The Pope had' the' appointment to all the "leffilibieriais
'in Ireland; and theßislibM'so appOinted itlihihistered' to 2,•50U
'Pr'i'ests. • It Welt' be stiff nominees Might ernaitithin
allegiance to iheir,Savereigh, bufthey
Might' also be relealid -
-from that allegiance to the Mosier-eh by aßull,'.ne Pcifie'Phis
'released all the"Freneki 'front their alregititice 'to the
Ruler. In 1633, Charles the Pint deposed by the -Pope.
-In 1759iP-Ope B'onifice'deposed George the Seiiitid by Irish
' Bull.- This might be: called 'an an ti-di,play; but ii'prisied that
the power of the Pope to depose Kings was still in existence,
although Dr. Doyle said it Waiblisolete.' Inl/309ilie" P6oe
eclered he had power to depoie'halefical Princeii;thOngli Tie did
'net use it. Thoie tenets -,oft': the Church' •of trig-
`titialitiectltotnan'Catfinliei froM" holding any office lh a .
teetant Government. , The vielation of an oath was 'r ,fi llowea,
the Roman CathEilic tents. TheY were' told that an unjust
Oath Wee not In beicept., The Rig-14)2.0a Prelate Coneludd
by saying 'he he lied great dependence efie the :Protestant Clergy,
who had en lien secured the Establiehed'Clefirclia So lcinges
they dinheif ditty they mightdefy danger, tint he .itia not
consent ;9 give up a single security. e' Hie hOPciiie; thirt-fFeir
• iJoidalli'Prwoliq hiit pass' the 11111.L:(Heir, hear
The Earl of LIMERICK defended the Landholtlet,
Ireland from theeharge- made by the Right Reth Prelitler
The Bishop. of CHESTR 'explained. • Nothing could be
fuither friiin his 'intention 'than &cast any imputation on the
landed proprietors oflreland.
. The. Alarquis of.LANOOMrtNeepse to address the
TfieTarl of HARROny proposed, to adjourn 'aut.:Ant
prop:gide:l, was overruled.
• 'Tire Marquis_ of LANSDpWN then 'l,ent on. After the
of tire Right Rev: Prelate be tboo,gbt his duty to
state the ground on , wide?). he should give his support to the
,tneastire. The Right "Reverend 'Reyereno Prelate had spoken of
expedieney. Was it expedient to. exClUde six milli's:sll'i of
people frOln the rights of the- Constiitition. Certytly''ho
expediency could juetifY their exclusion'; it was an act
Of justice to' admit diet*.' The:Right It evgrvid Prelate
find licinthkenhhe view; 'of a Star an ; to e
Right Rev. Prelate-hitt:l'nm- exeiAined'ihe causes'ionniSery in
Ire:Janda Juno hen-said fromaSir -John_Sinete les looke-that
absentees were, n injury to ,Irelsensle .One,ortwo small feaau res
in the distress bf had beenithtiied; but tl*grerit intorhaly
of irislapoptilation stippenting nClittreh hot their own bad
been overlooked. The Right-Revs Prelate could-not he Ye read
the evidence taken before the :Committee on the State of ;Ire-
land,.because not only the Catholic but Protestant , witnesses
had stated that the forfeited estates were .more valuable than
any other-estates. There was scarcely a Catholic; possessing
-property who did not hold forfeited laud; It:had been said, the
Lords who had property in Ireland, were induced to vote for the
Bill, aritt-at the same time, the, Right, Rev. 'Prelate
.contendid,
-that the. Bill, if carried into a law, would deprive them or*.
perty: How was the contradiction to be remedied ? • Nothing
could-- be -more unfair than the mode of argument adopted
by tho Right Reverend Prelate of taking up the opinions
of anindividual'and treating.them as those of • the whole Ca-
tholic body. How would their Lordships like to haYe some
nnehor the protests-entered on their -journals referred to as
the; Collective opinion of the- House of Lords ? He priateeted
against the doctrine-altogether. ''This question was not tine of
theology, but of allegiance. -It was whether the'aliegianteof
the Catholieti :was' such is to call on Parliament to Make one-
-third of Majesty's' subject; ;incapable or exercising the duty' of
subjects; Or ether khoritttoifid, be admitted
k to an • equality of
rights with the rest of their count/ye-nen. • 'Pre saidtinee on-the
table threw great light upon this part of the question. It

appeared from the- testimotirof a distinguished Prelate, that
the present period was peculiarly, favourable to Protestantism.
Why thee , persist in the wile system ofhexclitsion which was
adopted 'when Protestantism: had:much- to 'fear ? The Right
Res.:' Prelate: who spoke - last had. dwelt in . generals, and
avoided'facts. One only did lie condescend to notice, and that
was the Bulls which were sent over- to Ireland and Fngland to
depose George 11. He admitted; howeirer, that the Roman
Catholics had not deposed. that--111canarch--(Hear !)-and this
proved the proposition-of Dr. Doyle,: that there was a distinct
line between the spiritual and temporal power of the Popes.
It was not fair to select a single tenet from the Catholic faith,
construe thee tenet in a particular way, and then draw a par-
tial ihteiferente from it. But in estimating the character of
the Catholleth, appeals had been made to early-.times and
not- to the existing world,, just as absurdly as if-a Lecturer
on science were not to consider-the' discoveries of modern
times; referred to the Thunders' of the: Royal Society
and Vol. I.: of their Trausactiops. Let the Rights Reverend
Bench opposite, leave for a moment the . precincts of ihe
Bodleian and Sion Libraries,' let them quit BellarMine' and
the Controversionalists, and look at the world as it is, and not as
it was.-{-fear'!)-He Would- refer to the 'Catholics in- Eutope
and America: In the latter Republic there was one State
eminently Catholic, and its Constitution was More favourable
to toleration than that of any of the other Federal States. The
consigtien'eeeof the noneicclusion • system was a decrease of
the Catholics, and an increase ,of -the Protestants.' .Let them
look to the monarchies Of the old world, Prussia, Hanover, and
Denmark, and there also the Catholics were tolerant Vehen.they
had power, and made no efforts to overturn other churches.
But, said some Noble Lords, •it is proper to admit Catholics to
a fair-share in the Constitution in Despotisms; but -not in-free
Governments like
.our own. • This was the Most ridiculous ar-
gu.ment in the world, and the most derogatory to our na-
tional charecter. It was on the, very - ground of -our. free
COnititution that he supported the Catholic Cialnis. lie:knew
no better: way to serve the State and the.Churele than by hone
-suiting the just.wishes .and giving free . scope to the honest
effints of every . subject.- He admitted there were many
and great peejudices amongst the lower classes, and even
amongst The Clergy, (who, however, were as fallible or even
snore fallible than others) on this subject. Those prejudices
should be removed, and- the -best- to do it was by etating
facts. Many years ago, -when it was proposed by the. Limon
with Scotland to .add sixteen Scotch 'Peers to the represeri-
aation, the Right- Reierend Bench opposite contended that
latch a meesute would be fatal to the Church of England.
:fhey quoted the documents of the •Scotch Kirk to shew the
hostility of 'that Kirk to our Church. Bat what was the
'fact ? Singularly- enough,' those sixteen Peers had always been
'found voting with the Right Reh. Bench:-(Hear, 'hear !)--
Vet the r prophecies of those times were quite de well founded
itnY'broaelied 'in these days.' 'So the-eaee of the Sacre-
'mental Tear in Ireland. Even Dean Swift said it would be
injurious to the Cherch of England by. raising the Presbyte-
rians above it. Yet _the fact was not so: 'The Prerbyterietii"
had not increased, whilst the Catholics; whom it was intended
to repress' had infinitely augmented in numbers. Another.
case was that of Wheri it -was- proposed early in
the reign of George 111. to admit them to a full share of the
civil rights, it reverend Divitiecasserfed in prime-hat the 'Ca-
nettle would throw themselves into the arms of France, and
break their allegiance to Great Britain. On• the:contrary, the
Protestant States rebelled, and Canada remained firm and
loyal. He was not to be moved by any allusions to the diesatis-
faction of the Catholics, for how could men who were proscribed
remain satisfied and quiet- under their exclusions ! They would
continue to be dissatisfied-until their disqualifications 'were re-:
molte!.::The Teal- question before their Lordships was Whe-
ther they
.were to return to the old eystem of; coercion; or ep
oomph:he the myhteth of et:a:kill:aide they.had begun. That con-
ciliation had already been- precticelly benefidal. It had
ponred oil into the wounds of thehountry.h The Church of
England: Ought to sanction , these further concessioas, and
sheer more confidence in its'own principles and docirines. He
would quote the opinions of the fotinders of our Coustitution,
,of Lord Somers, the Bishop of Salisbury, -Lord Peterborough,:
and the Duke of Devonshire, who said that t‘'ne-Eaeglishminl
could be reduced to a more unhappy dentition than to, be ntade'l
by law incapable of serving his'King. and Country; and no-
. thing lent some crime of a iletestablenature could reduce .laiml
to steel' a coedition." He did not mean to give any opinion,
ori the other measures connected with the present Bill, becausel
he-gave his support to this-Bill on its owes merits, not.aitepa-e
races, but as a matter of strict'justice, and as being.indieperail
s tilde, in -fiery nitemp to _trim (le i iliac- ftelanda-4 Hear, hear:?)
. -The Earl of 'LIVERPOOL-a-I cannot, my Lords, alloae
this question to come to a deeiSen, without often:lg a. few ob-
servations upon what has fallen from the Noble- Olarquess who:'
spoke last. In-to doing,l aniffi6ifvilling to meet him upon
-the ground which he has himself laid down; as that on which.'
it is most proper to aiguethis questioe-ethe ground of expe-
diency. Upon that ground, 'upon the helasideration &the: good
.which is likely-to result front the passing °lithe mei/lure as
contra-distinguished from the evil which it is still-will lee this
, consequence of withholding it, am I ready, my Lord ;t, *to-re:et 11
my 'vote upon this question. Before 'enter; however; upon fhls
. part of the subject,, I must -first make some observations -upon:
the new and extraordinary situation in which we are placed, in
consequence of events which have taken plaid at the Codunence-
• minter the Sessieri; We: tirere- then calledLupera to
,pass an Act,
for the' Urpose of putting down an Hiegel Associetion, and at th
same time, Committees of both Houses were.iippointed to take.
into corisideretion the state of Ireland. *Tll64e Coninlittees are
still sifting, and it would, in M Opinion,'be much-mere satitfat-.
. g we were enabled to legislate uppn' a full view of the subjehte. 1
I am prepared, any Lords, to discussehie question solely uppahe
own merits; but I must say; that the-HOUse. Of Certuftens. lies,
by its proceedings, brought us into a most extraordinary and:
awkward dileenrrot. - They are not Oontent with sending us ai
Bill, theostensible object of which is the retnOval-of:the Roman!
Catholic disabilities, but they accompany it by, o,e:he/thee
Measures, which have no connection with the original question,-
atO haying, by means of these two collateral measures,, secured
a majorietin its favour in their own Reuse, 'they expect, upon:
that account, to secure a majority here. I cannot, however,'
help saying, .that this is a-most disgraceful proceeding, Anti:that
it will fail of its effect. Let us, I say, know what. we are, eo
alecideone. Letus know whether this is .a siogleeme.aaureant;
Whether we are, by passing it,. callo upon to sanction those
other meaittree -by which it 'is accompanied. 'Whatever may,
hale been the motives of the framers-of this -html!, I Oi), that
it has been' got up most- nnintelligibly---hhatethe ,greater
part of it is - nonsense, -and - that in- • half an hour •
would undertake to draw you . up a Bill; in • which all- its
-Professed objects would be more intelligibly defined,- then.
they are in this Bill, which has -taken up so much time and
labour, and which, notwithstanding, in every six lines contra-,
diets whehgeee before. The simple question to which the framers
of tflis bill ought to have addressed themselves, and that which
We, my Lords, have now, I. contend,- to try is, whether it is ehr-
Pedient to reinove the-Catholic disabilities or not ? Important
as this question's, it rests; Izontend; trpontheplain and simple,
around Of expediency, and' upon that -ground I am-willing to
meet it. Are not, say the advocates of this- question, the the
,• Catholfee entitled to all the rights and priviiegs which their
other fellovihitalejects enjoy ? - (Hear, hear !)--eTo- rilisl answer
With a diri negative.-(Hear, hear !)-e-I-say, the Roman Ca-
tholics are not entitled to the enjoyment of -equal privileges,
with their Protestant fellow-subjects, under a Protestant Cone
stitution.,-(Hear; hear !)---This- is. the simple' question (for- k
will not now refer to the -other measures to. which 'I haYe
alluded) upon which we. are at issue, and- before we dee
stead to particulars it is better to decide upon-tire general prin.:
eiPlei,'withieferenee to which we are called -upon to reel The ale
vocates of this !treasure say, that in free states all-subjects' are en.:
titled to equalrights. Now to this doctrine I new wiling to sub,
scribe, butts' ith certain limitations. They are, I admit, entitled
to equal righte, but only upon equal conditions, and my objection
to the Roman Catholics'is, that they would not enjoy their liber.L
ties upon the same conditions as the Protestants. Timone pays an
entire, the other an imperfect allegiance-( Hear !)--The elle.
giance of tlotte is complete, while that of the other is divided;
and unless It be proved to me that he who works for half a day is
entitled to the same wages as he.who works for the wholedav,
hi other words, that the half .is equal to. the whole,:i
cannot admit that the Roman Catholic, whose allegiance is di-
-between a spiritual and a temporal master, is entitled to
xhe.' enjoyment of , the same civil rights and. privileges as the
rotestenT,''Whcie-ailegitinee is undivided, and who ecknow-
PlgeS but one .ruler. L( Hear, hear, hear !)-Thus Much, my
hevehtheught it necessary to premise, before I go
No the question .of expediency, because great is • may be the
argument drawn from expediency, it is necessary in the first
instance' to found these arguments unon the solid and im-
:.l.l,lTahle.prineiples of justice ; and although I twee attended
tuediscussion of this Subject thr twenty years, I think it can be
PitteediiPen no other intelligible footing, I shall not now enter
into discussions-we have nothing now to do With
of 4Nlrnas Of ihe Realm Catholic:Church, with the doctrines
itantiation; or the invocation Of saints ; I shall therh-
tes-,9nltnetioyeerf to the power which, notwithetending all. that
. oeen said'upOO the subject, I maintain. the Pope stalreinnin-
atee
ee ver tne great body of' the Catholics. 1 know that ithas
ve'lthtlaeooiicy of the advocates of the Roman Catholics to main-
tarn
de_c at this power is extinct; but I neaonlyit'efer In the. evi-
e before your Lordships, evidence whichmust strike with
4urPrite every man who is not' acquainted with it; to prove the
tetzi.,lrtordinary influence which is even at this d3y exercised
.by
ete'nce°Pe- It ha, mY Lords incontestiblv proved, by the evit
itt "Dr. Doyle', of 7l)r, 'Ryan, and .other dignitaries of thh
an CatholiCs, that the presentation to vacant ,Sees. in 'the
‘urnan Catholic Church in Ireland is vested 'in the Pope at this
it.rl,,,teht-that he exerciss an absolute mid uncontroulted power
minting Whornhepleases to vacant Biehoprieke. lie May,
rhSI3S (the eViaetice states'), yield occasional) y to the recone-
rnelldation of others, but the strict right of' nomination he re-

serves to himself. That he had occasionally yielded to the repre-
sentationof.others has been fully proved by the evidence of Dr.
Doyle,' who has stated before your Lordships that James the
Second, his son, and grandson, had for succession of years re-
commended to the vacant Irish Bishoprieke and that the Pope
had invariably attended to their reCornmenciation;:-( Hear 1)-
If, therefore, .the King of. France or the King of Spate, or any of
those bugbears of the Noble- Loids opposite, were now to recore=
mend to the-Popec who.shall,say that he would nee listen te,their
recommendation ?-(flear, hear !)-14'ill any onethersay, ray
Lords,:that a people so circumstancetiare .entiJed , to a conareu.,
nity of civil rights. I know it has been said,. that the progresS
of education, and the march of civilisation; hive wrought won-
ders amongst the Catholics, and looking to the present aspect of
the times, it may perhaps eppear to sOperficial obsereers, thai
little danger is to be apprehended, But I would remind your
Lordships that the horizeh is often clear snd serene - when the
tempest is nearest.-e,(Heari).,eAnd here I would
.eppeal to his,
tory, and I ask your Lordships to say, at what period did the
(Meech appear to treidAaare flourishing ceedition then towardi
the latter end of the reign of Charles Ile ? And yet in 20 years-
afterwards it' was, that die greatest revolution;took plact.ia- the
condition of that Church, and it was next to a miracle that .it
was tioetiverWhelmed hi One connive ruin With7the State arid.
Constitution of this countryt--(ficen!)-This, thenemy Lords,
is a subject which Might not to be Paesed over. : It hi not to "the
Pope, as Pope, that I object-it is to the Ttincjple of •the, ex-
istence of Such a power air that of the Pepe-ii is to toe doe-
trines:and 'dogmas of the:Roman iChitholiC Church:thin ldbject;
My objections are not to Transubsterniation or Purgatory, hue
to the operation:and conduct ofits'Priesthoed over: all the stile:
tions of private life. The Noble illarquis hae
.stated, that, the
etiiiduct or the- Roman Catholic 'Clergy his nothing to too Witri
the. practical discussion of thi,esehestioie ~I enema ,agree. with i
the Noble -Marquis in this Opiinori, as I think the' conduct of I
the- Roman . Catholic Clergy mainly influences that of ! the, Ca,
tliolic body i and this necessarily arises from the nature. of i
the relations: between them. With -respect to the: duty of
confession, for example, it has beep asserted by some Noble
berdS that we Pit:Res:tante also receeinis'e the dutY Of cons eel
' sion. I • admit, that we_do, but mirk :the difference,hetweep
the Roman Catholics; and us. `We 'do :not require:the:lsere.
formanee of it as an iudispensahle.duty.,, 11'.; 40,p9t,:eiseq it:,
vite, much less require its perforrnanee, and although we be-
lieve iliateobsolution, or foegiieness of sins, is thesresult of I
sincere repentance and reformation of ilife, we de not, a the
Roman Catholics do, insist upon an ‘ annual confessiOrie ndr
maintain that what is celled the absolution of: the. Priest
z
amounts to' Sort of white.:WaShing of ili.;:sinner.ee!( il6l-, anti
a laugh.)-1 .have • not, however, done ,with.,, V#1,4,(9vi15.44f, this
syStem Of eolifeision,-.as practised by the RomanC.atholic ; and
here. I Meet again request your .Lercleliiiis!tattention to the eel,
Bence given before you. From parts of this evidence it appears
that if the person who confessed were to'd Ile:lose the commis:Whit
the most enormous crime,the Priest is bound to s?.cresy..--4 Hear !)
;-,Neitheils this bond Of *secileSycorifined ee trienie' v)hibt? 'filiiie
been committed, it extends. to. these , wil ich, ere to be. con'ealitce.li,
'and 'not only by the peisah Who makes the 'colifWsitei; but ay art,
pf his aeqexitetanees,, "So that if the Refeeneepee,to beerhe eßge
nizant of the ir,osnatrOCious conspiracy, of one'for- example to -
hloti. up both'. HiiuSes ofiihirliamenteand; harecenn Lard', I am
putting no imaginary case-(hear!)-it would not be in his
power toeliaclo.se the • secret; -- I erilligo Twitter and say, that if
the Priest were to meet a person at a place where/ wo reads rne,t.
andlf, Untie? the-seal of confessich;.hatirOl4.bdati'infernigtl Mil'
a murderer.waswaitinee:for I,ll.ineie sonic dietenee-on, the eight,
he would not be justified' in saying t6llini go e to the - left, and
you will escape this .fete 'which; isiprepertninfpn, yoe,r.e(peer, I
hear,. beer !) -What description •f religion is this, then, 4,
whose. :professors you are --callett iupoir : tre invest-,with -civil il
rights, or, is...it too much, to say, that they are, one ',I
derthe tichreive dominion' of - their Priests ? I next come fie,
the, question, el ,educatione-(hegret hear !)77,0,1 ihereJ ielriYP 'i
eid'leaitithin in asserting;that' I-see fneurinarth able dillictif- ...1
ties in; case you pass thisetneeseire,,difh,eultiesi Which .apply '1
to rib other -class of Dissehters, and the reason is obvious.- 1
lee . din I i eitie . Of. other :Didealteni;, 'the' eliesieltatewledget one
con-a-nee foundation for inStructione-the Bible,--( Hear, hear!)
.but from the indiscriminate use, of "this Sure& Reek; , the ~
Homan C'etkolic is debarred by his rieste .Yee. ',cone: next
to insnbject of gnat importance Lie- Onriecied'-`eilitiP the, in-_'
flu rice of the Priests and the„ Aifrecelee:ef, reeereeilierg, the`,
two religione.' ' I allletle.. uii time -et(b;ect . of . inarrege. :'fire"
Roman Catholic Priest : dieellOwe; (the: validity ,eof„tpaerieges,
which have been contracted` within certain degrees or..kin,;
• dred which are not recoghited by his Church, althought
Lucl- are b.),,- the law of 4114,14;4' -,Tliose,the Irxiegli.thdi,
the law are at issue;. forrewhile thet Ope, eckhowledgee thely -i
-(11t3-,• ofthe:gontract, the,Other'telle thoSe by' whotti ItlWetift. liii
intvethaethey are living in a etatre of sin: eTheee.areOthet e
eteneea of interference upon eltheeiileict, pit witielei ehieelelitt
necessery. now to-advert. • • I have, for example, irry,eelf loment
Instances Tiber : the •l the- fefused'?o:
..niarry...e Homan Catholic geneleneanneet'Tetitestant lady unless;
he cogagedeliet all his childreti.weee..teeleeeeei,ticeetedeeNetOp.",
dies;•.:e(laliai- !-) e- I -was de.:erous to 1,-;n6W wllerhet- kilns wire 464
1 case; iii Ireland Hne S well as i this -country; fifid Ih:4. ividettfle
of .Dr, Murray has. sutistieti roe: thatit ii ere, Harrteken _lnsk,;
cad the professions of such opposite :systems Of:faith: an d, prac-',
tice be -ever united and knit together' in the bend's' of' social liarr
many, and if they cannot be-so united and knit together; whosi4.
(alit is in?: leis eettetheieelt of,.tlielaeyse it is'aeoteliplfault
of the 'Protestants,' it is not the fault of' England.-t Heetyine--
1 . -
It is oividg to themeelVes, and to the •ceedutriff their:7oo47e
the, natural effect -of which is _to create i a edisrenlop ;arid verpk-,
relate distrust.-=( Hear; hear,! )-.-Now. nip ,respecf,egeetether:
Bart of their. Church die-elphne;'l Mean tecoleiminueation, whet
-aVarfkil engine is this in-the hands:of the priesteelllhoir 11:
shun: be told that! :it is: frequently, , evaded.-I• gzant ;hate itiis) ;:
.but the very seeerity of the ,punishment ie that ,which,pinie
'Ven:ts its eefecutien, at leait„in instances, i,yhten the' prie;t, has;
niet:the übithimeue voice 'Of --his' congregiciee with him. • ' Ilnt
-OVPReSe the sengregetioa is etnanimettis,. and dna. priest is 4etic
open the penieliment of some obnexietis,delingue4n-cii9-nc4,
"arty,this, my Inirds, from any wishee-linphte iinOttitleeneoliVO
Ito the Catholic priesthood generally, :oil:from:tiny- euppositieri
that etijgre „is. in I hat Body; hey dieter, tape tqalee, ahesrA:efl
,their-power---17 say, howevee, that to the political, nests thgre.s
'64ll2,:hetrtio mere fearful or dangerous engine than this power MI
excommunication, with all its train. of fitirrone-4Hear, hear! ri
Is not this proved by the power. which it is upon all hands act
knowlesiged that the priest possesses? Do not Protestants
and ReneauCetholicite liewever differing in other niettees;)inite
in this, that in the various sounqee in Ireland the pewer , of
the tindlord is nothing to thet • which the priest poAseesce
:in :casea of contested elections,e or upon ether occasions,
when: het wiehee to make his peliticl}l, in,t4uence .evetletkle. :If.
the :exile 1 'apprehend have any fpundatiop in truth; then 411
the gond' expected from the nieasai,..itiril- SO' conehlehtly • pre-',
dietedemiee. fall to the ground. I bold that the Peoteeeint sue;
cession to the Crown, is an essentialipeet efithe Consiittitien,e,
but grant what the Catholics now desire,, and -the 1 eotestann
'succession is not weith five farthings:n.4 Hear; hear!)-1-Tiffeiri4
,out, of, consideration the; • question of ,indefeesibite. ,rienet, -; as
long as,7Qti adheze..to
.thf ,PriniiPlei thutePle,ge,nSiltelhon i.l.
Prolsomr, the .Crown' plait also he PrOtestent. -But is 'OW
Itibk -Vl' -tide 'country - to be" the only person who •rtniy- en,
. tern* scruples on the subject of :religion withontebeil
allowed to act upon them ? Is . lie, ,altrne ta bee exclude
'frnrit; 'ettertaining ecruplee 'on the ~subject of purgatory, ?lie:
invocation :Of saints, :or. •tliedeal ,prietence ? - 'Elie Catholic,
relight complain, thrit -for ,eoteetninyielAtten,dOerrines, they erd
excluded from the high oifices of that ate. I f y pa admit their(
io'S'orne,- -eliy exclede tiler:li 'fiorli 'ollreisl" Why ii -the oifiee' of
:Lord -1:1 iencellot :to be excepted? I. could state elasonie why. it
would be les; ,dangereous eo have the sittienteof
.Ch.-recelie
filled" by a Catholic than C
.that Of hief Jestie pl',*the.Churt of,
Kiiik'S • Berieh '-ebecriiime,the former 'is ietneveirlei at- 'pleaStiret
Calholicsel-atimit;ehaverseighteta their, scraeiles. ai. 'lonian.
Catleolieseesatiae, ever" peesoe.e-arel,etni pre, .-,w,;514.;; tale ieinfe
have aii _q sal right to his scriiPles,
be a.etisplifed succession;" 'Mid `tilt' 'the:. evils' arising from it.
thotigle the resin, might,
The. tnn,p2nt'ijie wineipletie: givee , etp.. to ,the, ex,l•4•lt !etiOred
by the 7;i11, ;it; most be given up -et; rarely, , I wii.l. P4clFe
meet ;he linittif fairly; Lind ; saY,..thit this Will be -no' long,ei
a Protestant State,- if the, Bill.thatikl:-puss: ;.l. look
upon -the
mea,eer.e. es one fraught. with danger to the Protestant Esta,
'
blistiMeht. I: ani 'retly et the same time to believe that th 4
Catholic; neither now. nor i e leteein•-haslany, &sigh, upon-the
.property Oldie b4tabliehedleirprelie,,,eenae k. au;
.eenaY to. al:
low.; :bet can ryour:Loidshipe ensiver fOr i-itiaFiriiio; 11,";PPe.n in
time to cern:el?' -I Will -call'yeer •LerigiliiPe' attention tn the an-
• swerof. Dr, Doyle, and. it is a:reinitrkesblir tote. Being asked;
" IV puld you diminish the preperty, et; thel-ast ahl is h id C.:: tire 1.1??
hiereply was,: ' Yei'; not, lid*ever as .'Priest, bet as art !Fah;
men; "-(Hear !)-..Wha can. 10 t so biindieerionto see .what: this
means ? The itortian Cathoiie Clergy will ,nut now Say, )`•':'
cause they krelne it to be iinpractleable, that they' will tin
-selves taket the property of the-Chtirch. No ii hilt: they woul4
• B.
viirireoir43,:;4,'-niiite4444riells,ileit,n4tel•
give it' - to
.thF,_ public.. 'pelt eis.„ the. bribe: they , offer,
There is .nothing in the et-int:fee given
,lik any one o}'
tiit°9iso, f indelfiarePtY,4ll4thetihre duty. Their oath, „their rell,giOn,
the FlOrrien• 'Catholic
tvlitth-in,:thireittnentt.-
'Put TthetigitiOrtainity within theli
bind them to its destruction. They mien 'de it if the nine
',lave, however, other ohjecduree that:go more hatted r>.
srheaoarul,dle.ver arrive ther'xiohla
ately to th? objects Of the proposed riesitetere. - This .Itilfis oft-
fered to us as thiaineans of producing, peai'e andeonciliatien, 4.
knitting together all classes of., higAlajeetylenribieetei Ilia 2
before shown your Lordehips the eiftiaentokee
aei,bilite
of e
fecting such objects,' from ,theevery.niattmete
,tile Y
principlee'
heldby some Catholics. The.. question for your, Lordships le,
not ringer reeve thi
Will'ilie..llill.reln4vr,distsigr'st -9::.t.N`..i1l it ne
tvetior ifii e b,iria them It Ivilyt 1 te
.the hurtles ‘V+fiere they
ntiii. ifaict t .:.eete by- giving new Pe't ire O. et fiat-not
bilities of enjeying power, it will bring them more hirer semi:
tact with their Protestant fellow subjects, place them on a nearer

' footing of equality, and, by tilos exciting desires, which could
not perhaps be gratified, fee.sl-1 occasions . will arise of dis,
aension and disiatiidaPtion. i eoulrl Meier:nand the policy of
the measure,' if-it•waelinsSible to unite. Protestants and Catho.
lice ; but, 'as now stand,;
the byaa any system
ot°±s etoadullacaty,iin mattersa ut to inirease. irritation. I now
come to the consideration of the rayoel effects expected to result
11.a.att 'se that 'cbuntrybas
bwalaihni'leson.Pf,ej..rit ta.o.tihisetTa=s°tta.ti:_..e,,liliit,iiilaouglat that all the discord
there, litiS grown out' Of the Catholic '"disabiiities; and that by
retpaejakthern4 the foundation:of, lasting peace will be laid.
If ever there !leas a proPOsitien Capable'eldernonstration,' it is
this, taetane,distreeted state of Iralande had nothing-Whatever.
to do with the Catholic question. ThiS is quite evident from
the evidence laid. rpon your Liordsiiips' _table.. . During the last
25 yeartathat the
been
Act has been occasionally put in
:Vice, therehig'fieeri Ho' otie irattaneeer its being acted upon in•
any„ part of, the Prince of Ulster:, yet that province is• the.
great seat. ofee.ligious'ilir!sensiot,; It
.was carried into effect in
all amataaa pro Tim,. with the except-ton of the corporate towns,
and Yet, in these towns, in the province of Ulster, religious
araimosities wear. carriettto• the greatest height., The .discords
that 'agitated Ireland did not therefor -,.. arise from anything con-
'''with '' - ri or with neeteu. rengia this. question: , I say,• they arose
'broUght forward a beg-
iifiniTiatairtlyuifairon,iiiiitilhlgwireioat ropbtidliyai;silofia,,
.af property, which gave an
and
garlic peasantry. This, it was. theta:ave rise to sucha disor-
deriai state ti society ; that evil,' however, is now correcting it-
tell, as appears, from the evidence..of Zia,""-- Doyle. e I fully agree
with the Righi Rev.' Prelate', villa sfitike: in the course of the
deltatea'aliat :if this: inea•att,re he one ri g ..right and, justice, it
m w smatters sot h atthe number of Cat tidies may be, great or
sirriall:' If it be 'a ,tralit of justice;; the few: havetts good
claims RS Ale.: many. 'Butawith respect to the comparative
numbers of 'the ''Catholie•• ' and ''Pr'ofestant 'population, there
lirisa..bc.cn,
.I, ant convinced,
,•great,,aaggaration. . A .Noble
Duke ( Deicirt'•,!iire), in Presenting a
as
this 'night, re-
presented tho,aarnte4a a' oithpiicf as 4ye, to one. ',This, I
have good reasons for believing, iv an exaggeration. At the
utinoato I -thinot,beliclathey are snore than three.to one.: . The
proport,ionis now.prilty nearly the same as in the time of Sir
NV illiiisn'•Ntay.l I.`int ,'''Ntble Marquis' (Larisdown) 'his dwelt
rratettpa; the greso,.ereprivileges, granted to peoics,tanta in Ca.
illolic 'Sthtes, thin te'Rcinntin Catholicsin'ibis. • There are,
howevera viteinas circumatancesayhich!rpoder ,it expedient that
diti-I:•refice Or religion should be. subject to restrictions here,
which!rnightoroti besto ireneasary ,in absolute-. Monarchies.
--The Noble Marquis argued, as if the Roman catholics in
iiiila;countnit : were ..dePtiveld `of 'sit privileges. nue, even airier
excluding them from all this bll asked, they would still enjoy
timer Civil rt4ti political liberty, than-the' PiotestantS risitting in
4.9l',cagiOiS j,t,lll4iD,Elixorfejt , When the electiyiefranchise;was
grante'.'d fo the It•Ctintari*Ciitholicif, it Was hailed as 'aiere.t'betin
oiiiloil Atnaticitribua riOW,e'that; those ve ryapeople wile -.talic, .so
notch td natural rights an=al of their great ariporteince to the
sublec are: preparedittritithis theasitier(irhicii at the titmcist'-can
aTect onlv. thirty 'or forty persons) to sacrifice the rights of five
hi:Mired' Alcitta'nti..2-(-leilr; heit :),,-,:Whatever mighe! be, the
case in other„natidn3, .or in a country circumstanced like Diary-
land, all ir say' is; that it'"is• not. 'in 'the (lorestiiiition ' Of this
. „
coaotil. aa. caleekit, Cathel,ics . go those aituations. to
~yo,ucn the
Bill'wiluld' rendertilleiii iligitle.. 'There is onet Very mate-
risk pAtft f2,31.;Vi)14.1 I nwat•offer,a feyreolpervations.--, In . an,
other place a resolution has • been come to, that • ii is expe-
didat,ta make provision : bylaw .for tho.itoman Catholic ClergY I
not, be it observed, in. the way of a regimen donum, but a
pitisinn: liy; lav:,. 11• That I's. ibis • but tO - establish the Roman
Catholic hiesearc'ly in all its, force ? Is it consisitent with
the"tiFeliiratitin ikfhPe prraifible',' of supporting `the' Protestant
1-;;ltaiilishuiept,„ and flie rights Fla privileges, of theyroteeatant '
nerarc'hy ? 4 Tam not disposed io draw- the' same conclusions
reoryatheaCoronatiori Rath abet ,others :connect; witha.it. I do
not ;Hein!: it, inconsistent with, civil concession to the Roman :
.Citillolion--(tiegrj)4 m :it i 4 -AO: merely 'by it:ft-relied; 'Bet I 'sio
net lAolc,,,*pon it as impoing a religioua
,obligation,ogainst the,
.CdfnufaiiitatNi *of 115 b il tied! - tliiiileffges. -;:it nierelyt binds the ;
,
illozpiaatato,Raitltlaippie Clheirch of England in all its . rights !
and privilegtel. _ Butwhat:Will be the rims:::. ences 'iif this re-,
se.4ll'.ofa if carried•lntpleffeet 'e': : . Tliq Boman ,Catholic, ~Church
of Ireiland fs, already, to all intents and purposes, con-
sidered. by - the. : .peorile a th=ere t as • . 'a.. National :: Church.—
There are instancett of Priests there, so strong is this:
imPressidti 1 bn • tll eir '2, MI a tla, • : Who t, will not • address a Pro-I
testint Bishop hi' his title..., end in
„some of the,almapaclo.
teh- nAtntia 1 of" the tiAtoliC literates' 'areprinted Ittiarge'let-
on- very' deli-
:l,. therefore.
1 tjea'srn': 'ayPo'kuri.ll9l4loTlkcitip'st,lfiniTfelr327tAt are treading P 4134-
1,-eatt. atocl dangeroos,grourttlaa'llaere are ninny other points•on
' Which 1 should have felt disposed to, Offer a few observations,.!
*re a enot:preeenatal...-y !bib! lattraess,pf the hour. :1 .look
,u on this thqasore as ineansislen,t with the first principles of the
tYdristittifirin."ll think itiniataisibrettliatrif could' produce that,.
AeAce and,permanent . conciliation leipepted from it., Wliatever;
might lieTtg` i•ileets.:itt'the ki ref him etit% ot iratitadi oi'eluita-I,
;i,en,. it 9 nataral,
.tehdency.jstap inerease Aisaansion ,a1:14 ,anitno-'
sliin. 'l'ilany ektraordinary r.vaielties have been lately promal-!g.ated., We-are toil( ituktri)oshitig.baarbein gained by the Reio. ..
. lutiora ;, that Jamas II :- fell in supporting the glorious cause of''
eieligifitts teileratientr:--(110All,1}4if, hearl)2--thac his -objeatstaii
nut to .attack-. • the reformati,on, but to
.procare, for all his
'itrbjebt 5. freedein' of 'etiiiii,Jllee. ' • We liroie 'IOW,' since' ililif Lie-
I vglittirio,,bad a hundred fnathjety years of aeligioutapeace„tiod.
"Pieions to it there was teD'kears of religious convuliion: ------
anaisa.peiee has b4on 011,)gfitil the state 9f,:f.nfr. law, . which
granted toleration to,all Other religious creeds, supporting, at,
-site saint ;tim e, the Established Chunch. inea just and reasbnable
degree of suoerioritv. We are now called upon to put Protest -
~itritS iind.eld..boßcst;eni't tlit fitiTreTolititik; and, if we'cOitsnt to
thits.a 4rtaitt 1 aln, that ,the,:icoplequence . till be religious
ilissenNon,' and 'not ielt'iiotitt '.iseace.--(Hear ! )-The ptiesent
~systeet,ltas the; Fllerienceepf; its geed reaults to recornlfleliti it;
and rfreree it, therefore, to the experinient proposed' in this
-Bill; onto Flay o*eillmt.l. itsivelkt heard Suggested.-(Cheers.)
rl'he Earl of .11IMEItICK explained.
4, ?a , E",iri - -or t 1 A P. It 0 Nlf ti V:,. afteran apolOgy for troubling
their Lordships at that late hour, and a.high eulogiuni on the
•speca'a-or his .Nohle Friend "(the 'Ettri-.6f:Liireipe'6l); Said, • he:
,w4iinduc,ed to r'!set, ,Pe•sli"
,t;l4,ti.,4,lllllxoswevez,.. .ppwer-fl noightebe, the"
argiurients of MS Noblet Triehd, they hall ni;.-icie tie' infpresSiork
ttthcient to alter hilicepnierio.nl
liftQtiziiiitiltelitliniprltiii4taa;:dijingtligleerYisteoirfonn.,7,...,...,,,ed was
cretaarias, while they professed
etheir allegiance to the King,;
1 aiiccr ith a thcl to, the pope. c filtt-Notle, Pit e ti il COn ien il id ;that/
they, could not be disting‘4istiv,,d. The Catholics, however, them-
; sCIvA-Uiii.ingkiishe'd thern. Ties a4etitnent proved too much, It
Lwßul4„follew, frpp: it .that Oitl4ics.could filot ,tie faithful. sub-
jects to any Sovereign if they reasoned correctly on the itilsPosti-A.
:tenets pt' their religion. What-advantage-coulauis Noble Friend:
derive from proving that they must be bad subjects unless they"!
-*ere baillogicians ?• If the argument Offils Noble Ftierid Nva
good for any thing it certainly
was good for too much. It is as.
1 hiitaCigible far the Roina; Catholic' Cliii4h to contradict In ills-
Lseat, frgin,w4t ii haa,:lc4ilowl9dged for its e,ptority--,there.;
l'oie tieffouse might "wall for. ever before' atS'icid' it 'l3lll.
ARP)eir re lleft.if is Iv4i4OffPr Elsa;-.The .pope payeraatouldtre-
nottnee his authoriay, although lie knew 'that in temporal Mate
t terri It was tvelluelissi, 1 It. had heed an - decliireet by thb) Fhencir
Friend i Bishop,a in Cauneil, with Bossuet at their head, in 1082. --,
1-rtrifto, IYearli - agd,l *ben' the ' !treat.' trueStibti was eprOirotirated
to aill theaUniversitiaa of .El'u.rope, they: raiected it, with disj
'claiii: ' ' Th'e •Catholte.' Chulch Iri''lreland i'ai`e'e'diSelitinter
cl. (Lord Liverpool) had
stated that Roman Catholks could not make Oda subjects;.
to ii, end; when. his N,iable,
the ;luting xemark woad nii•ply to them on the tame groundj
in the Roman Catholic States. The objections` that had been
ttakene tot :the .seerisya of; :-confession availed, nothing :aisaall
the mischiefs of it eaistiog at present could, not be math
k'nu'rl;, dithgerOus by: 'any enaCtment- in townie of the Ca-
t. tlio'ii. 7
I regiard' 'te 'the no circula'to'r di:" the :Bible • • .- bdt he CoUld,,
not, see how ,;tltos'.- -I•wk ti
,1i70,0:' 04glIt t,o.•tif made to affect,
1 their civil rialits. The saint., inieeht . be Said of' t.,-'' ''' . ' ' ' ' '' '
I. - am carious re-
, lat.l v e to xna'reilge asul eicenintnoteation... -if th,ey•filinis'apii fray
"sons for e xclo ding tip.. Catholics swiss, they were equally valid reaj
'400.14' far their aoriatinifs'aiole Co thepritileg ' t • a ,a, -1 ~,
es wore. ',Joy airettoy
enjoyed.,--.if the orgoinent was *clod
for any thinfa, the Legisle.:
hire hlat already itoife'tocfflr"eai'tVnivn'saffiy: i,-ouldiny,,fiti
[
theta, ruts, that tii4t4°,4g4,t;Ple;•, s‘t,,clitenets slioald debar thern
t from the fiat' ekercise and enjoyinent of the piivilegei of theif
't,fellaw..citisens. out -Yet JikitifYit-the,PassinSof a,lave, which had
"surrendeied the comoittnd of our armies and (air fleet's toalienof that' PerM:lai ion? ',lf stich an argument was true; Yrlicirraklues-
! tionarose between the Pope. and the King, the true Roman Ca::
"thvolit4Ould des t.it the King! iin d 'folio iv tHe • Pot a, o lint;for,'his
, o,Trllwr,i.lll.eilisl'a'liPved thornsinnetion a„ltago,-,.. , ar,
. I,he pi oper
wii;i tocoLinierb'atSce-tlie.',ltiffonce -of ehg Voile' in Irelfind ivii
to, have recourse to those measeires of. kindness and conciliatiod
'Willett' bliniill'inan tb•miii, 'and tti e, citizen to''the -Cloveritfnent:
ill etff Ar,cd 03*. I-jeliitia writ 41'''''Z'4.cted by too !natty diseases'
'math; dill riothOpe that ally singte measure could` He. iiiiiiteel
t. 9 3Q f..cp..41,
~a•pm4,sef.i potthia he Anew, that etimi measure of
Catholic .c.lanCipatt„, was a necessary step towayds ealMing
ihe.disuirhtlnee 0t....f.t.i. iStiial P=g4l(l-'to tl'e-fa" of these with
apprehended mischief (rout, he admis rni-
sion of Catholic ille
liohl it? the'Coisitrioits,nhat thougat : they would ; not. :be ti: bit
wors
,pm:
the pio,„twit, ALeinbera I;lto.wsreireturned by the
-r ti l t))
iCiirtfiCelia;.','Clithtlittl I P Pi WO 1 hi Ilintiterihotild,ittainpt
~) ' t ittering power la Ocir means, he would, be
to eaptfixte us , ~ , e ,a.• 01 f , rt. , ,4&.••-6 • - ;
.t: • ..,:•- ,
siii`e to rat.' Wi& regard' ti the re i tio'M tider Which
tiil r.erio hc• wer ialip,/itare,i4itan wa,sla494„.oll4thetiPtir ..I%..Ptc. 4, ~ f,
' V 0 I)0_tit(!:1 expediency, it might say nt grouniled on iii t' N t I
• 4 (4414 . ' • •
..aSiOlitetr33oFiiity.. 'Re AOPINti.444OI, , AVP 4), She
.Comttir
• - 1 Polio or from physical force. But,. eVen
lotion, puler from the
t iet•tilem , ' • -,•-•
:sihkStiiti Thai alarm be . 'AA '. tbuctlet.-- • . rotider against
4,4 Oleic andestors had done,
the mischief in the sante nytnacr,
'..-ei'2lr,tiiiiive•fien''flielfeaiitsi it 'etincealed .Papiiit on ihe"rhrohe,
arid a known one, the heir to it ; when Louis the 14th, then in

tbe plenitude of his power, was, as-.'was then suspectal, and
which Was afterwards confirmed, paying. the .King money and
bribing hint to enslave
.his people, the Legislature then. pro-
Vided an ample remedy, and • tright.do.so again-in event of a
repetition,of the dengere If the Roman Catholics ,of Ireland.
Were to have the door op.ened _to them they could have no rea-
sons forinducing ,them to become faithless subjects to their
king. He did not believe that Ireland_was in a state of rebel-
lion bnt even if it. was, he knew the strength of Beglandeto be
sufficient 'to controul it. It was a matter of astonishment -to
Eueopee, that this country should- be legislating at this time of
day on the subject. *lle..trusted-that their ,Lordships Would
not by their vote of that night, afford a.triuttiph. and
_satisfec.
don to those countries whom he. Would not-invidiously call the
enemies of-this country, but who ceetainly,were its rivals.
The LORD CHANCELLO it' said, that
-at that late hour
he would not enlarge in his observations-to the-House, and, he
Would aVogether pass by the merits of what was-called.the
tholic Question. He hati,al ways fairly stated-his objections to
the Bills Whenever the:subject :had been. beeught bef4ee that
House,—there were, in the present: bill, one or two circum-
stances tliat rendered it more objectionable than any That ;had
preceded.it. In the first place, be could not, understand how
the bill., had
_come before their, Lordships in the state -in
which it_ was ; their Lordships could.. c9llect.front the votes
Of the liouse of Commons, which were on their table, that
another bill was in progress through - the -Lower Rouse for
disfranchising a large portion of the. Freeholders of Ireland;
and a further -one, stating that it was expedient to allow -
stipends to the 'lonian. Catholic Clergy, and every body was
satisfied:that these: two, Bills Were connected..,with the Bill
which was then before them.. Their Lordships could not knoiv
the contents of those auxiliary Bills, and yet they-were called
on ti act and vote as if they:did., That was not a properniode
of legislation, and if he saw no other reason for giving:-his op-
position to theßill, yet on that, and: that alone, he-would op-
pose ice-e(-fear, hear !)—fl t would not go back to-all that had
passed relative to that subject since the Union of this.country
and Ireland. A Right Reverend Prelate had stated that no
pledge had been given to the Catholics at that period. He would
state what his knowledge of those circumstances was. The
great man under whose administration that Union- was effected
had stated that he never would consent to the carrying of
the measure of .Catholic Emancipation unless the most ample
seourities were given to the Established Church of England—
but he never had heard what those securities were to
be, ;and he- never had seen any sufficient. securities4ro-
posed. Certain it was that those who were most anxious to
carry the measure, had in the year 18I*pitipetsed the Veto, but
every one must recollect:the manner in which that proposition
was received' by the Catholics. That, however was not an effi-
cient security, but it was Ipe only approximation fe one Which
be had ever met with; He had; with great care and attention,
taken the troubieto examilie all the bills which had been bi4tight
under the notice of the HoUse with reference to •Ciithalic Ethanci-
pation. The preambles of all the preceding Bills were precisely
the_ same in language; but in the preienteßill the greatest in-
genuity- had been exerted in framing it—it- was different from- all
its predecessors. He had taken a solemn oath as to this point of
doctrine-ethatnoforeignpower had, or ought to haveany:autho-
rity within his jurisdiction. To the very uttermost of his power
he should suppoit those- principles, that his. Majesty, as seemed
meet, Should haee.the power to regulate, as far as respected the
oath of allegiance, to the future Conduct of at least, every laWyer
that was admitted to perform the duties of . that highly lionoor-
able profession. In theSe Observations he confessed- lie acted
the part of a lawyer, but the part of a constitutional lawyer
he -linped.--:(Hear !)—He- confessed that the question- here,
as elsewhere, had not been brought before. ,the. House on the
same. arena or scale as formerly. He would, with Mr. Burke,
ask-theni.whether it was their intention to have, according to
the Constitution ofehese realms, a Protestant King, a Protest-
ant Parliament, and a Protestant Church ?--,(Louti
There ,were., circumstances which, in his..mind, induced -him
to believe, that the most censcientious Arlen in -the -.country '
were of opinion, that.the-doctrine of reformation in the Roman
_Catholic. Chtlith, as to tenets, was altogether a misrepresenta-
tione.mid..stould -eventually prove to be an -illusion., Under
all the circumstances, he professed that he _should feel it his
duty to throw: out the Bill.
Earl' FITZ WILLIAM supperted the Bill, and expressed
his surprise that any real friend of the British Constitution;
shoald'OpPoe a principle; as applied to Ireland and•theCatho-,
lie cat seoehith they,wntild disdain, as applied to the land they.
lived- ire...:;-(.Loud cheerS.) -
The House then divided on the second reading, when there
appeared-,-- • • . .

For it ' 84 present -- • Proxies - 46 .
• Against it - 113 present - - Proxies - 65
Majority against the Bill - 48
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
Ronk adjourned at., a QUARTER 'PAST FIVE o'CLoc -this
-Morning..• . • ' .. .

• • ... • ..• . •
H:OUS E OF' COMMONS. .•
v' Dr. PHILLIMORE presented a Petition from the Rev. H.
B. Owen,• against the London Tithe Bill, and praying to be,
heard by counsel. ,
. 'LOD NON- TITHE BILL. ' •
Alp., Alderman WOOD moved the second reading of the
.Loedory Tithe- Bill, and-stated'the general:facts connected 'with
it. The nblect•was to have the subject eiarrlined before it COlll
mittee;'if --not *a. t_Celect 'committee; a Committee of the whole:
Ilonse.' The parish' was willing to leave- it even to any indivi
7tanal to determine' what -sum ought to be paid to the Bettor
'but it was- not fit that the tithe should be a matter of perpetual-
! 'dispute.. -'The deed under which the Rector claimed had never
been enrolled,-according to the provision of the statute of
Henry ''''''' • ' •
Mr: COURTENAY thought this a moat extraordinary in-
'..tdrference -on-the part Of the Legislature. It appeared to him
i•that 'there- was-rmt-the•slightest.grOund for the Bill. A decree
had given-2v 9d. in-thepoundtrr the ancestors of the present
layitnprapriatur;•and-they had enjoyed the rent charge for 300
years: • The question then was, whether those who-were railed
u pun to- pay the rent-charge, were to be permitted, by a Bill, to.
relieve themselves;- because the sum wasslarget thawthey liked.
to pay?—(Hear !)—lt was alleged that that decree had not
been enrolled, and it had been presumed that it had been
enrolled rhen .three.-,lttindred years had elapsed before it was
clisP4d. In'the yea 11647, an issue having been directed, a
Jury found as a fact that the decree hail been- enrolled. A fterc
t)tis finding, would the House entertain a Bill which declared
iii ibe prearrililea,s fact that the'decree had not been enrolled.?
• ear; hear )--it seemed to. him a most -unwarrantable inva-
sion of' private property, and he hoped that the parties would
not be put to the expence of going into a .Committee. He
moved, therefore as an Amendment, that the Bill be rejected. 1,
Mr. Altlerfnan'•BßlDGES opposed the amendment.
Mi. W. WYNN said, that if this' Bill were allowed to pasS
throitgl,ittiotherstae, it might sieske the •foundlitiqk of all
private property. The finproprialor clajtnecl under the law of
the land, the security of an, Act of Parliament, and the finding
of a Jury more than.one .hundred and fifty years ago, and it
was, difficult to imagine a less objectiontlble title. •The douse
was ttortorreet itselfinto a Conit Of 'Ju'stice to decide private
claims.:. If_ the decree had_ been. improperly_obtained,it had
best the parties to reverse it in the House of. Lords.:
In all takes''where ate invasion of thiS kind h:ill'been allowd,
yr al dat4y :where a great public benefit-was .to be.. seeurea by
making a more than a full cornpensatiOnto the party deprived.
Mr: J. SMITH resisted,tbe furtherprogreas of the Measiire.
Mr. CALC RAFT observed, that what was termed a. trial in
-1.647 V wati4iO • such thing; and the enrollment-war never quest
as it was taken for granted. All the parties desired now
rfsue to ascertain whether the et:treatment had Cid-been
utwi:aanw atedeet. He -admitte4.that the ground on which,he trod was.de-
-1
licate'arid it was necessary to give security to property. • In the
caw of; the! fire of •London, Parliament lw,l dealt with church
property for the benefit of the clergy, and he saw no reason
why leshoirldnot just as fitly intetfere:for the•reliera,the.tia-
rish against the, clergy. Last year he bad carried a bill through
Witr regarding St. Andrew's, .Holborn, with the *appro..
bation (At the Duchess of Buceleugh and the Bishop of London
when a lower stipend Was given to the- dergjimin- than that to
which pe.would strictly .by law 11,ae hler? entitled to. , If thi
Decree 'had been enrolled, there would, wrier; bean end to the
,question; and there ought.. to be. art end .to all litigation.
Mr. COURTENAY explained, anti referred to some &den
merits' to show_ that the enrollment had come in-. question
1047•
ecessary to Say
life. PEEL felt it unn ore" than 4 few words
'lt of such nature, that he shrewdly suspected • had
p?r4 aI • - H Alderman h" If' it
' hien' dra it by the on. e_ wrote . The Right-41On:
Aleotlepar then.rgerred to the P9Cedirlg.in sxnd to, a
'previous proceeding tri 1589, regarding the tithe:4; when it had
. been felted and m.pdrtedth at ,'" ,the citizens, gfi .koralort for, ueir
riches were yery stout and would not „
7 On the present
oetasien-,,the • citizens also apPeaxed very stout, for their riches,
and Hon. Alderman declared .that they would
and by . • Darin t 6: .not pay
'ir twey' help it. g pre nt-SesSion an writable
arratigernen
hat been matte between , the incumbent and the
hialVer's bat he protested against this
pans • le invs-
rion:of private rights. _ _ _
Mr. AV. SMITH agreed that it was unfit-that the Bill should
- proceed :further, •
WOOD denied that the • • • •••
Mr. Alderman WOO ie Bill had been btougl4
' the Co oration Of
other
e meats had not boson
all other means had fail d
resqrted to until after
^ll CAIXRA ea
••
" Mi;l3Ull.o.Brit and = 'PT each said'
„ wortlf after,.v4iish PAtt,the Amendtne a
xvie/
rarried;a'iid the Bill thrown out, wittionl .
• -
• . • ,
gr. BRouGfiAm asked the Cnancelldr of the .trebe"q.'i
to. pOstpotkel the bylnginglietti;3..lie-po.ft‘in'the&larits of the
Jud&es. If it were thour t erge toßiv_e thePuisne Judges
-a:olre tarry astrhe. 'Peauer ,r ".saetri!.'l of• >commons,
the Secretaries of State, he mignt min too large,. but

should not directlx_oppose the proposition. rhat wiihed
was, to secure -cffeetuilly the realindcpeodence ot-the 'Judges;
and
,with this view he wished, when the iteport was brodght
up, to move AO Amendment, to declare that it was.ideitpeiiirne
that Puiszte Judges, should be promoted to' the rank of •.Chi,tr*
JustiCes,
'The Gil A NCE Li,ort-ot the ENCItEgt/ER was tinWißing
to defer tho'bringing up, of the_reporil..
111 r. .811,911611441 added, that it would not bebrotkght_.cp
,until so late an' Initir'that Many Members would 1.),_-.-itliSert'.'4flia
wished toJ)e present at the discussion.
The CrIANCE ',tag' of the EXolllL`Q.lJEll—ugg:2st,•,l
that the Hon. 11lernbet tni,rht make 21. ra-oti;:n or, The-
subject with g,reater Convenience.
BROUGH.N.M. said, that, many 40n.
jected to the sattu proposed.
Mr. 'YVI.LLI.A AIS said that if the 6.),)1:. were. to Stand in t!,-,
•, . .
resolutiou, lit SYOLII4 trove that lOW. of ' It be 4.:7.V.eil to Li
tired Jildges.
?Ir. RAULIG/I.eii NI asked whether tti..lS.totch.,Judjer,
-to be left.out of conshieiatzon ?
The CHANC:hII.!..:),It of the EXt:Ij,MQUETZ ;r,,f-rr,Nl
what had pissed I.Lit pikllt. it; by tiO'nTh.ani
elude himself, frOrn :cOnsidering the salaries of c:-.
.11-'ItI,Ire!BROLT()IIAM gave notice tiotor, Tltursll;,,;'
submit a motion' eater prietically t.d the
of the Judges.
KNSIril-TON rs
Mr. S. WHl'l'll,ll6/*,.1) moved the 'dis:.•harge 'of the
regarding the lierlsington. Road 'Bill.
Mr. f/AVENl)_oltrwas "Bill..
to oppose the nteiian.'.'
, Mr. H.SUMIsIKR cOritended that if the gates weie mot d
as. proposed, increas:,sl expence of 1,2,49/. per atirfurn.r.:otif4,
he throivn upon the parish of St. George, 11an0ver:441...ari....--
He' had understood that one object,.of 'the alteration W 44 t',give the'Duice of Wellington a larger gai-den round his ii6u-s;
After a few worths Iron. L4c! Low'rnun, Mr: C.,,c,t.e.g.r:ta.
and Mr. R. COLift/.I.INE', the t/rder was discharged..;;
Mr. SYKES presentttti a petition from the Operative,'
in the Town Of Hill, against the re-emiatment.of th.t
nation La ws.-.lteee.ir.:ed to th'e. C.ornniietee...—The, lion. A;.Lin,=
bcr Also presented a .pctitiOrt from the Owners of. Ship,
others, bi-:gaged in the Trade in Huh', praying that_the t1:1 6'6
ltape-sed should not be. taken Off. He alsa moved tor
turns of the Duties on' Soap and Oandles.—Ordered.
. Mr. JOHN 1W1,,.1.4:A*MS postponed the presentinent
petition
.Qll the Dalays of. the Court of Clitincery,jearri
day, the 19th, until the 7. 9th Of May.
11/r. BRIG ITT presented a petit..: front the Meehartics
Bath, against the rener,;al of the
to the (;Ommittee.

..
..
Sir F. IIL/11D1;/'1,7. preeented a pCtition. front the. hiTtaiiie
tarts of WesreitiStee against the house And WitielOw Putits"
Mr. CURTFJq.. preeented a:petition .froni certain ileil'i'-e'.,;
. .
holders and other inbahltAnts of the Towh' of Ryee'COMPletk'e
ing that then were leept cut of the free exercise of ethir.')..ecee-
tive Frat)eNse...---Thpziliorn was brought up, and'ortiYtetr .to
lie on the table. . .
. - .
WI.NI)I)N.V TAX.,
Mr. HOBHOi SI". rake to bring foew.ard his Promised .:'eice-
tion, fur the repeal of the Window Teen- The lion. Aleenliei
alluded, to. the diffictilties of ' his task,' and alluded to the flet.
that this tax had long been repealed in Ireland, Where it 'Wee
justly ealled.the fever. tax. , In this couneryit-Wae.cqually en-
titled to the name, ,for no one could dbubt that. ithed annihi-
lated much bealthand comfort.. Ile adverted' to.the opliliaii ole
the political economists in favour efthe.c.ourse pursued by Mee
yertiment ; but when lie saw the paper whith.ePristantly chtu.
round to everyprrson in the country, and, was received witty
much ,the same feeling with which a Pachri receivertthe limas
demanding his'head, being a 1301 of Peins ;lila Penalties, fOe
it had a penalty Of•fifty pounds at the beginr:lng,. Midtl.le, and
end—die thought the tlovernment Was not jtiatified,in Cori,.
tinning such a grievance, 'for the sake Of carrying into efret't
any favriurite schemes. It was net his Intention efi'letTaeee ari.i
thing whieli would intetfere 'with the -finienclal•tteranganents
of the present year, but he thought he hada right to pall 44.501
the. House to give a pledge of reduction int' h future Seeldtiri.—
He denied what had been-said by the itiglit*lion. Gentlelhan
(Air. fluskissoii) in hisletetter-to his cons'tittitits, that. thie was
not arniriqtiisittsrial tax: 'Die-Right flee), trentletorm had alai
said cleat "this did, not prefer.. with so nieiCh... severity upon the
country as many Lindikeat taxes. He Asserted that tbi.s vest at
much an indirect taX'Atlie nix upon coffee or any thing Oat:.
It was an indieeet thfs;utrin glass, and the House Tot..w.et;i_.o.4
indirect. tax upcnt.;litilitling materials. The. lion. .Mernha-
'then 'went on to argne`that the reduction of the Window 'rex
upon-small houses cold nOt give the relief evhich tbe Pieel't
Honourable the Chancellor of Ilk* Exelielu.lr' expected. 'fl e
taxes upon such . lious.es. hmi been 'paid 1;y the larellonle
and no eednetion of,rent was now made ; so that the parejee
relieved
,were.noz. the pooe, :but moths e eles9. Whey :tee
reldiation of the stinie thity upon' 4rOp windows and the bese-
t-tient storks took place, the .parties so relieved in that respeer
universally ConiPlained that they were- lbsers. in .eotieeatience
of' the increased el:ernes made. on the hose 'Elk. trutr -.--
' diately after. This was the casein the city heehad the hoeenee
to repreSent, and heelrelieved hi all ..the other eitle;.4:l, %
' country • so that the classes best entitierd torelief p.itioa- h e
by the.relaxations which had yet been-mild:el.:x:lle Hon. /Wern-
her then gave an accoant..ef the 'origin andarrogeeseeef 'the
• Window Tax, sheavingW
that it aS nr*t made the Sttiestitute elf
the Hearth Tax; . Which' fornied one of the causes of. tbd'EteVO-
lotion .It might be. asked• by the Ilight Honotendlin (leiv.te.
.man .how he meant to sul;ply the cif ficieney ;:hilt :lee re,.
duction of this 'Fax would occasion in the 11evernte ? "1:1- ,'
mighe be a very good, question for, the Chaneeldon.at tluel:xci
seer tO put; but ft whs. onee. whiCli, ente4lie., Onto le.'asked w.
'him, and those who thought with leilri that -ell ou.i.‘,Elsteibliete .
,ments were WO large, and be: neither our Gentlethen in bl 104",„
not our Gentlemen in red, ought: to be better paid or-intreheain
numbers. Tle result,of. the inieerable, war in a nab' had artea-dy
proved that the reec4t:demend:for. thelneretiee,of thc.hrnev web
unnecessary. • lie Was Also one,of those who objected toleeesi
' log' p the Sinking' Fluid, and 'taxing the people' to. suPir4tkit.
Piet He had formerly:been et with the statement that' the ItUTli„.tt
. was mhdeUp; and the F.stittitite lied beet, cored,- .arid, luivsi be
;paid: Tint lie now only proposed, that from and after 'elk iili
of April,
.1820, the whole of: the tax -on „Window- should :case
anti ileterinine. ile*C6Uld'not therefore, be..met whin h,. s see
objectioas, and he thought it was-very little td Ask on. bell -di'
the people, whose prayers upon this stilejVf.lned been 1.1,444
'heard: • Gentlernen ViOutd recollect
.tfiat, fiTey, 'Were .41r-, wk,
_ their death, beds, turd that this Sort. of: deathleed;o„tatititiee
-*might be 'better then nothing A the estimation of,tliOree4l..
stituentae ,Tbe HonAlembeteConeuclid ;ley pnwsictg-a W.
' re:Antler' to. the' following f eiredf2L". That'it it The opinion' t .4 t"'f ~ . kl.
House that the numerbus !Petitions.piesented". tab; ate' Ittly
,desefying of,attpation and 'That theeetcire.frbin and*h.fter. <sth
Aptil,' 1826, the said`taX' ought to.lie iiiitnedieitely-analerally
repealed.'?
Mr. LOCKTIA,IfT seCentletilili'el4lotion.- . -,: 1'
Tile CHANt ELI/OR:of the EXCIIIXIIt R dithentnear,
to (say, beeitesi :Hop.. Geole.* ne had already ug-reed to , the
Estiniatei for the year, they were batiritt ncitte.aeeedi4.to jlee
psarmeseenitilmleosttiipopn..7aYse taiitsopougsedht
of-
abte-ilhoortdirt..aient_t
,ln,piattel. 44.1-sj,. A jr.;.;
brought, forward hy the Ban; Member. fet Abingtitil,, . "Itfter
the I,lOuse. heel repealed ;this, Session tp,kti.iiii6;:t4,:4):',ooiii 'cif
1,500;0001.'0n n calciiratitiii af..th-i;',...tirph:lS' R'eitfut'e.elfot.fe
three years .13,25, 111i16 . arid: 1827 be ati•etifely il-f- -
Piiiii dee t. riP W. to enter til alio th ei 'pledge i 6
in tote ensuing Session.. If, therefirre, _the ellaufe, was, net et
present prepared" to alts;' the" tySteni. dr fr•e-Saiking 'Fund,
they could riot adopt this rrieasurer--Viiith respect to the pet'.-'
tions against this tax, to which..the Ilout,#4ihe.T•AV.4;ll;ll"l-
- he shouldeeay wits, that rnisit..o ffiose fiitlifiPA.ll4o,re,...P" "
sented before the financial •statemetlt is 'kieli ,tle...:itt.tV'e.'; •
.cellor. of the3Eashequer):hail'atihrelited-:to`Paillitueetd'A4tltet!..e.
public. They genetently neayeciltiett.if net the iltele,'Ne z.-:.'
the. wintle.W. elute: Le parttirelnity tieeee !le:king .on .thevesaitrr
classes, should be remitted,''and with the 'ratter reqesest;.nge.haet
in• hie plan of Finance 'Complied. .stritel•flutt ;Le had: harissest
honour of receiving} the ('orporation: of..the ,eity pfl:entienNeenti
' on etsplaining his Intentions to then; he thaught.te• could ilea -
ceive from theisenannerThnt'theyWere'iatiailede • TheePropee -
tient at 'indirect ta direct iiiit,i. Was now lebout:fifty..miliitifee
„to: three and a ;half millions, Whieheins ericrug,h to AtirL*l4ii.aLy
'one that the Latter could: hot .lee felt.' 'very severely) onti.itwo
yea :Ivo not less than . two .'dlliorts. three, liatuktktied
.ponnds:of Asiessed-Taxes:were.'repealede antrithia. very Ses-
sion, out of :978,000• '. rgatiause.l"4464-liellol*PA34:l*-Isatt
relieved upwards of i ii,Qooa: inetiiiiiitysit .VVrespniesteFeetenn-
sisting of 17,000 of these contributor., gam 4i'•M'FII lififV,lVer.
exonerated by the plan of the Facet year,' .;.kle,irepposeed -elmit,
proposition, however, because he thoUght...the, public:estruee
would be more consulted. by,ciniplfiying:theeurialuserestenaree
:the reduction of ihe 'mass of indirect duties,,:iti,tteacto.(4iirect
taxes. Bensteadily and .firealyepeirraiing. chta,,eptirseeelaseferau
benefit would be conferred on .thi:colintry. . He tilweeMitan.
and should refuse•to mve pledges fiir tho.futureregarelingatrlin.
tion as leading to .extepsive inconsranisaire.-.4 Hear., War. isYet
• Colonel'lMVlES thought if the. suuntry •was to. be,epollee
every man would deentre.bis conviction,. that the•repecilofstt e
diireet;_ -.4y Sul& be:there beitaieidl -than; the, rePeal _ of she indiree t
taxes. He should' upoti; That and other -grounds support tht
t'-motion of-his, Hon:. Friend-the - Aleinbereefor.Wasturiostene;.
t :':..lure LElStifea-shotild.reeneetisnliiii:Oicition.i., sir he Con sidere 0.,
from the notice-which had been 01e...n of a Ite.'‘mian -'°f the
(Cain ,lettrie4; tirdehtsla.iaxstieiiii.'eheapAarieeprolitiree • were lie-
consistent with each other. es, .2. .e.t....:::.,.e. :. ,
ti..-!.40, • CM4tftitA ig 2at '-PH:rad ee i pe4 ktaSattiOn ,of :his e Hon.
Friend. ‘Helionipd, hovrever, that before the',end if ttionext
Stsatoli eheßigrinekien..Geutientori woukthe-abit. to' do, asirhy
_with svouggiing,.: by ; the -appropriation of gait of • the -onfplus
yeses now existing to the farther repeal of foreign cluties.e.-...
-Mr. BERRIES :defended the course pursued by Ministers