The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-09 00:00:00

Was of opinisin - that the discussion of them was the I a manner which did infir.i.e credit to his catejeur and
11leans of creating considerable distrust in the minds of I frankness, that they had not been fairly dealt with. So
te;t, colonists; and, to avoid doine so, a large disere- f; r, tea-, as to the irtet and t! e causes of the face Nur in the
tionary power ought to be given to the Government to third place, is it my intention to•nigist to enter into any
carry out the system under those modifications they c
.ntroveny as to the character if these causes to which
considered necessary for the welfare of the colonies tied this gentleman has referred. It is not my intention to-
of this country.—(lleer.) night to introduce any controversy as to the policy or
Mr. HUME said, much that had fallen from the the impolicy of those changes in your laws by which, ac
night ,-,
e-- Hon. Gentleman convinced him of the necessity of cording to the Member for the West Hiding, the agri-
having all the documents and information on this sub- cultural classes have not been fairly treated.—(Hear,
Ject It was possible to lay before the House previous to hear.) I hold the same opinions upon those measures
brin •
to in on a discussion of this nature. They ought such as I have frequently intimated--the same that I
be aware what modifications or changes had taken have attempted to develop in the House on more than
Place in the system, and how these changes and one occasion. I still believe that your new commercial
modifications were operating. In regard to all system is founded upon erroneous principles.—(Hear,
these they were totally ignorant ; and he was hear.) I still believe that, in constructing that sestets),
delect, in one respect, that the subject had been intro you mistook the rules which regulate the beneficial and
ucted, for it now came out that the Government having advantageous interchange of commodities between
' ,nese flieted considerable evil on the colonies by means of nations. I still believe that in attempting to ob-
alterations in the system of transportation, had viate the inconvenience and injury of hostile tariffs
iellopted another system. But what was the use of fol- by opening y our ports, . you have taken a course
'
,ten?9lvlng this ever-varying course in regard to this ques- which diminishes the efficacy of British industry.
Some years ago they had a model prison erected I still believe that under your system the natie e
eat Pentonville, in a most healthy situation, and they had labourer is more unable to give his produce for
convicts sent there, and kept at three times the expense foreign produce than he has been heretofore, and that in
ordWhich ordinary convicts cost the c untry, and all that in that proportion he has become tributary to the foreigner
er to test the working of a new system. Well, cer- —(Hear, hear)— that he has less command of foreign
in
roduce, and that inasmuch as the precious metals are
le sufficient time had now been given to test the P
sent
hour, no report or resolution had been come to in metals. I still believe that you have embarked in a
oer that they might decide whether that or the other career which must end in the degradation of national
goSystemshould be adopted. It the Pentonville system was industry, and may lead to the catastrophe of a financial
od, it ought to be introduced into every prison in convulsion.—(Hear, hear) I still believe that you have
hine, kingdom. He contended that, by the system they but one way to extricate yourselves from the embarrass-
''t adopted, they were keeping in this country a vast ments you are already experiencing, and the calamities
number of those convicts who ought to be sent out of which I believe are impending, and that is by. a frank
fl 6 as
ies speedily as possible.—(Hear, hear.) Let them recognition of the principle of reciprocity as the funda-
jto Pentonville, and what did they see? Why, a mental principle of your comercial code, and that the
eree number of those convicts employed at a very gen- only legitimate means you have to fight against hostile
yel and agreeable employment of making mats, an em- tariffs is by countervailing duties. Still I retain these
e"Yrnant so genteel and agreeable that a set of ladies' opinions, and 1 have expressed them not only on this
kaids • h -
qt., might be set to it with equal propriety, and yet but on every legitimate occasion; and I shall take
Prey called that hard labour, and considered it a just and every legitimate means I possess of making them known
oper punishment for criminals.—(Hear.) His opinion to the country, and of obtaining for them from the
that they might keep those parties in prison at such public that approbation to which I think they are entitled,
Work for 10, 20, or 30 years, but their attempts to re• and which I believe they will ultimately achieve. Be-
(3111 them b such means would prove an utter failure, cause, however, I may differ from the changes made of
as
they had already done. All the information he had late years in your commercial system, lam not one of
gathered from those in charge of prisons, te d, cease- those who wish to recur suddenly to the past, by appeal
coeellYr well acquainted with the treatment of prisoners,
ing to the passions of any suffering classes or taking ad-
_nvinced him in that opinion. Not many days ago, he vantage of any party combinations. I wish, on the con-
Paid a visit to one of those public estaLlishinents iu West- trary, that the change, when it is effected, shall be penile
tame who
and a gentleman happened to be there at the neat—permanent because it is called for by the convictions
teePta tellp was. a great advocate for this reformatory sys- of the country. I look, therefore, to legitimate means to
rand said he had himself seen a reformed prisoner. obtain that result, which, for the sake of the country, I
The governor of that prisoner immediately said he would stilt believe to be inevitable. I look to public discus-
go 40 miles to see such an individual, as he did not be- sion, to private investigation, to the failure of economic
itv e such a being existed, and he (Mr. Hume) was of prophecies, and to the fruits of sharp experience.—
his
opinion,
there never had been such ca individual. The (Hear, bear.) But having frankly expressed my
abuses of the present system, however, showed the no- opinion upon these points, showing, without offence I
euessity there was for then ppointment of sense officer of hope, that whilst I wish to avoid controversy on those
Justice or some individual, no matter what his title, to subj. cts which have no connexioa with the measure I
',limit:), and arrange convicts as to their mode and place hope to introduce to your notice, lam still unwilling
them but, at all events, he would not have that any one should suppose that I shrink from
lee remain in this country to undergo the sentence the opinions I have always expressed to this House on
`l'kry transportation. He considered the pl..n of assignment the matter; because the reflection of every day, the ole
h.e,rY good one. The Right Hon. G, ntleman had said nervation of every hour, tended only to confirm my con-
(teeelt was a system of slavery, and so it ought to be.— victiou of their truth.— (Hear, hear.) I think I may be '
rii ear, hear.) He did not Iske that feeling of morbid Permitted to say that, after the extraordinary changes
taelb.enitY which would endeavour to screen these who of 1846, which so greatly afficted the agricultural inte-
th rited punishment from its infliction. He agreed with rests of the country, they were at least entitled to this
e Nub! Lord • ' result—that the use mof taxation should not rest mi-
tes, ethat transportation ought never to eat, .
• would justly and unfairly upon them.—(hear, hear.) That is
Betil un-
discontinued; but at the same time he hot .
eoe convicts to the colonies in such numbers as to in. the first proposition. which I lay down. My second is,
e Lumode or prove injurious to the colonists. A great that the unjust and unfair apportionment of the taxa-
tion which they complain, must be removed and re-
telePeelle e was incurred to the country in consequence of
erf'telure of the punishment of imprisonment, and the distributed, and that in that re-distribution they may
ofreilTng up of those subjected to it so oaten for new find. ,if not a complete, a considerable relief for the suf-
treos'ess That, he conceived ought to be remedied by mengs they at present endure. The question I have
eo P°rtation, but he would keep no convicts in the to place before the House requires in fact very little
100412trY longer than they could be sent away to the co- statistical detail to introduce it to your notice, though
Sir had been selected for them.—(Bear, hear.) tne interests with which it deals are vast ; though
of ds _ JOHN PAKINGTON considered that the state the results at which the measure I recommend aims,
sav! question for the last few years had been most un- are no doubt very considerable—the question in itself
b7l.B,laetnry. He highly approved of the change adopted is extremely simple, and like every thing which is based
0,,,,,`9a Present Government, and wished, as well for his upon first principles it is clear and easy of apprehension.
ferusenformation as for that of the country, to know how It seems by accounts now in all our possessions—by the
I3lrteat principle of separation to which the Right Hon. accounts of the parochial or rating year which termi-
nated on Lady-day, 1848, that a sum of not less than ten
The°l-i',et (Sir G. Grey) hail alluded should be carried
Rev u..r. Baronei then alluded to the opinion of the milliens stet lit g has been levied by direct taxation upon
tisk_ aer. Nealer on the system of separation and pu- the real property of this country.—(Hear.) The poor-
eoueM Fat. in the penal colonies, and said ho perfectly rate, the county-rate, the highway-rate, the church-rate,
thoughtith that clergyman, for he (Sir J. Pakington) and that variety of rates wile which your are all faini-
IN P.s that the best and most judicious system liar, and to which it is unnecessary, as I conceive, I need
sioilee treat the convicts in such a mann. ras their va- further refer, and which are levied generally under the
raof' dispositions seemed to require, so that their chit- head of poor'ssrates—these altogether at the terminus
fiejr and good conduct might be subservient to their Lion of the last rating year formed a sum of not less
if
„re emancipation and independence; and thought that than 10 000,000/. sterling levied—and le-vied only—
realuer system, which would tend to inculcate on the upon the real property of this country—(Hear, hear)
"°f CO . could , convicts a spirit of self-reliance and industry, —and in addition to that sum of 10 000,000/, sterling
vertitnue engrafted on the plan now carried out by Go- under. direct taxation, which it strictly and legally
rouse "It, that a great and useful result would be the speaking is, we have. also a local tax—the land-tax
the,equence, not only to those convicts, but to society in —local because it is apportioned to localities, be-
cause rt, is assessed in localities and by local jurisdic-
k Penal colonies.
tion, and because each locality is liinit,d in the liability
ha te.• GLADSTONE did not think that full justice
sea been done to the probation system of 1846, which for its quota. The real property of this country, then
toffitleedeeedes4icnagrtaied on under Lord Stanley, and had colitis pays at this moment 12,000:006/. sterling of taxation, to
part of his (Mr. Gladstone's) period of which no other species of property is subject. Now,
tvii, :when he saw that there were many and great Sir, this question will be placed before us in a manner
atig, 'rising from the system of transportation be had which will convey the necessary result in a moment to
Pottleeeted to his colleagues to put a suspension to trans. every Gentleman's mind, if we ascertain the annual
s,sodett°n for 18 months, because it had been a system amount upon which these 12,000,000/. of taxation are
ees'eurctive of horrors and of iniquity, which he felt fully levied, and compare that annual amount with the whole
ittld he must ultimately destroy itself as a system, annual income of the country. We have all of us the
tee e 1,9 should add that Sir W. Dennison approved of materials in our possession by which we can form this
Ire (iteration made in that system by Lord Stanley, for calculation and arrive at the result. Every Gentleman
'gent rW. Dennison) had stated to the then Govern- knows the 12,000,000/. I, have referred to is raised
ae
_e that a considerable improvement was effected. upon the rental which is contributed by real
suhf, erected be found it to be his duty to state that he property to the amount of 67,000 0001. sterling
eft;iluered there was too great a precipitation on the part per annum—that that t 2.000,000/. is assessed, in
Qre e, Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord fact, upon a rental of 67,000,000/. sterling per
14,-,, with regard to two measures--the first, that of annum. Now we have no difficulty in ascertaining
sera up the penal settlement of Norfolk Island, and, what is the probable value of the income of England
11,,,°,1411y, that of conveying convicts from New South at this moment. We have a Parliamentary paper
Qfee'es to Van Diemen's Land; for the Noble Lord (Lord moved for by an Hon. Gentleman opposite—No. 747,
Which gives us the amount of the income-tax paid by
401,3) said, the convicts should be removed from
1s),
stoillt Island,„ to Tasmania, which order was disobeyed England and Wales to the 25th of April, 1846. The
Jesee:' W. Dennis,,n and the result was, that this Paler was laid on the table of the House in 1847. It is
1,,,...r0a01is
of
s 4 strong
act disobedience was subsequently highly a mere mechanical operation to calculate the amount of
iseP ved of by the Noble Lord (Lord Grey), which income from the amount of the property and income •tax
c'eret and evident proof' that the conduct of the contributed under the five schedules by England in 1846,
beat
arY for the Colonies had been precipitate in because the total income of the country is represented
es !" of the business. He would next state that by that tax. The total income of England and Wales,
then, in the year ending 1846, was, according to the last
lett felt Pleased that there was no intention on the
return under the five schedules, 186,E88,9581. But, in-
epra of the Government to entirely do away with the
Gs, ex!' sYstern, and hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord asmuch as 67,000,000/. sterling is the assessed rental of
be 13,1 would extend the area of transportation, because real property in England and Wales, in which every class
MA: sorry to say that there was at present a consider- of property, without limit, is included—even cottages
test, deviation from the prudence and wisdom of our an- being assessed to the poor-rate—in order to calculate the
,ita
ets, , when the states of North America received con- relative position of the assessed rental of real property
With but so few in number, comparatively speaking, with the whole income of England, it will be necessary
Poeta e settlers, that they were totally lost among the to ascertain how much income h afforded by those
10_ s ation. He feared that the ruinous and demoralis properties which are in t assessed to the property and
ti)6 YStetu of
ry ~, confining convicts to a small area of terra.- bring odium on the name and idea of trans. by the Right lion. Gentleman the member for Tame
terse,:t°n, and that, therefore, particular caution and worth (Sir R. Peel)—a prod, nt and cautious authority
tee e Possible effort would be required on the part of —when he was introducing the property- tax. On that
occasion Sir R. Peel, in making his estimate, said he
!)I. t"-)_eeretary for the Colonies to maintain the system
41 thi."BPortation without exciting prejudice and disgust took the incomes under 1501. a year as a quarter of the
income of the whole country. Now, a quarter of the
egrstteelPublic mind. It was for that reason that he re-
income of the whole country—of the 186 000.0001. ster-
if}:lseaa‘4l:lll.a_t thes foundation of such a
didpenal colony as
hug which appeared under the five schedules of 1846
, e or,_s.wa not carried out; tor he not think that
would be 62,000,000/.—(l give the round numbers), and
1846
he eireieg of a new door was a measure that should
that makes the income of the country amount to
verteeenraged, particularly when he hoped that Go•
249,000,000/. Now, the question I have to esk is this:
tieeee'ent would take into their consideration the import 249,000,0001.
should those 12,000,000/. sterling of direct taxation
4ibl
ill of as many receptacles for convicts as pus- why
levied upon a portion of the whole income of the
414 he6t the system might become so obnoxious that it
country, which is in fact little more than one fourth of
kr"o given up altogeteer.
(Ilse ' tWART said he did not mean to prolong that the whole?—(Hear, hear.) That is a simple question;
Iv sous it is a question in which the country is deeply interested
es to , °, but rose to ask whether Van Diemen's Land
and which a great portion of the country is now asking
Were
~ be a receptacle fur convicts ; and whether there
eep."llr,otber colortit sto be opened for transports ? themselves; it requires no mystification of statistics
to answer. The whole income of the country is
heard Alderman SIDNEY would have wished to have
ttbeaf hat a proper system of prison discipline was 249,000,000/., and yet for the purposes to which I
Npe,, t° hat
established, so that there might be an end of have referred you assess only one fourth of
repeated fed re-committals. As to the gaol of Newgate and that whole amount.—(Hear, hear.) On what principle
evil, alone of Correction, they were amongst the monster of justice can you defend that system? What are the
kr:, thei. system of transportation in this country. objects of this local taxation? The maintenance of the
Real
r• SCROPE referred to the state of the Irish poor of the country; the maintenance of the means of
internal communication; the administration of justice,
or themd asked who was to be regarded as responsible
Dr e a, and the maintenance of the sacred fabrics of the country.
Are not these affairs in which all property is equally in-
oitee • GREY, in answer to the Hon. Member for
las etch, stated that the utmost period to which soli- terested?—(hear, hear.) Upon what plea—upon what tti' iruprisonment could extend was eighteen months, principle can you vindicate a system that makes one-
ii 't
esel might be reduced on the report and recommends- fourth of the income of the country liable to these great
Dile of those who made a msnthly examination of the charges?—(Hear, hear.) This question has been locis
11,40ners. In answer to the Hon. Member for Dumfries, dentally introduced in the House before, and has been,
se stated the three colonies to which convicts were to be I must say without offence to any one, but superficially
th4et were Van Diemen's Land, New South Armies, and treated. There have been attempts made to raise up
th,Oape of Good Hope. As to the question relating to an idle and odious controversy between landlords and
iktlrish gaols, he referred to the report of the in- manufacturers, as to who contributed most to the
•I,lora of prisons, poor-rate, and as to who ought to contribute most-
-0 motion was then agreed to. endless and vexatious controversies of that kind.
Iv, . . MALT TAX. Now it is agricultural laud that bears most of the
ti pet: DISRAELI, at nine o'clock, rose and presented burden; then it is maintained it is household property
tißeeciltion which he had just received, and that was that maintains the most grievous portion of the burden.
el IseebY nearly 2,000 persons in the actual occupation I will not enter into those assertions—l am not one of
Plsie're in the counties of Cambridge and Suff ilk, com- these who want to depreciate the importance of house
property—who wish for a moment to shut my eyes to
term Mof the malt-tax as most unjust to the agricul-
ire ,
Th,, LereA and praying for its repeal. the fact that during the last half century there has been
' Petition was, amid loud cheers, laid on the table, a great eleenge in the relative position of the different
bee AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. sections of real property. Far from wishing to disbe-
lisve or csnceal that from myself, I look upon the result
th • ISRAELI—Mr. Speaker, I rise with the hope et 1 as one of a most satisfactory kind—as one. proving the
410 elay induce the House of Commons to consent to prosperity of our country—proving, by the best of tests,
cet
`sat measure of justice, of conciliation, and of policy, that there is a great amount of fixed capital in the land
to ,fltears hear.) It is not my intention on this occasion of this country.—(Hear, hear.) I agree that dwellers
in towns
inare assessed fer the support of their poor, for
tress " into any detailed demonstration that great dis..
example,a manner which . I urn not at all surprised
We eiete in the agricultural districts of this country makes them clamour. I willingly admit that these con-
the ettl_
that . g u a
etuber distress exists or not is not necessary for tributiuns are bad, nay more, that they are grievous;
setre°_tnent in which I mean to recommend to your and I quite sympathise with the possessors of real pro••able. lithe resolutions that I have placed upon your perty in towns, who are so unequally and dispropor-
iellse I 'lt, Sir I shall not enter into these details, be- tionately assessed. The measure which I shall introduce,
st believe ,it .
eistyes ( is generally acknowledged that that if this House will go into Committee of the whole House
ess e
ghts si‘'nes exist.—(Hear, hear.) It is only a few to-night, is one which will relieve the suffering towns
s,ft.his pee that an Honourable Gentleman, a Member that will meet those complaints I hear so much of from
f3ti_steeee/ Buse, came forward and offered his voluntarily Manchester, Bradford, and other great cities and marts
tiPeeto In that behalf—a witness certainly not to be of manufacturing industry. I sympathise with their
t,43e5," of any morbid sympathy with the agricultural sufferings—l acknowledge their grievances—and I say
le u the Honourable Member for Manchester. He it ' ' 1 bl to th p ) sessor• of real property in these
is into ere e e , s -a,
esele it les . .
ee other night that he could not for a moment towns that they, being only one-fourth of the property
agre'l from •
4,, icelfe_ In himself that there was distress amongst the of the country, should have the whole of' these grievous
and leo'rel classes of this country—distress most severe burdens upon their shoulders. So with another very im-
Ctirs t;;lnount; and I inn willing to leave the state of portant species of property, which is very amply and
4 0 depend upon his testimony. Nor, Sir, am lon ably represented in this House, and which is in perpetual
111 (‘e4Bl'ati
ue,ses of about to enter into any inquiry
.as to the. hot water on the subject of rating to the poor—the rail-
4fiL et all that distress. That also is an
.investigation way interest. Nothing can be more monstrous than the
be ia
2._flecessary to the argument which I mean to amount to which the railway interest is assessed to the
uo7ore y:9pert of the resolution which I have placed support of the poor—l agree in all their complaints, but
weeles of `,', But if I did require to know what are. the not its their remedy. Ido not see any justice in the
ttts!ho. site that distress, I also would appeal to a witness railway interest seeking compensation for their burdens
e2Jeet au_Pon the benches opposite, and who upon this by throwing the burdens altogether upon the agricultural
less of w°llld, lam sure, be admitted by all to be a wit- interest. I acknowledge the grievance• of the railway
eh Rrt'at
th outd . and unimpeachableauthority on this head— interest that they should have to pay for
e W,,s Epeal to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the whole property of the country, while
hen, Geeeeldine
e e. (Mr. Cobden).—(Hear, hear.) That they are only a section of the fourth
ueeeess
heeetanause'en on a recent memorable occasion, when part of that property; but if they will support me in
the politkalicated to his assembled fellow-countrymen this great measure, I mean to propose they shall obtain
oeuo arose" Programme of his intended course, spoke of relief. It is the same with other individuals; it is the
rs),..in_oet England with much sympathy—(lronical same with companies who supply us with slater or with
‘4al
ted their condition, and acknowledged, in light; they are perpetually wrangling about the poor-