The Sun.
London, England, 1836-08-19 00:00:00

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d •red, as be
~sacs, in the highest degree objectionable.
Wah respect to the Irish Corporations and the Irish
Church, I shall not repeat all the arguments urged on
those subjects. I shall only declare that I still adhere to the
same opinions in respect to them which I have all along
entertained,
With reear
el to the Stamp Duties upon News-
papers Bill, I must say that I was very much surprised at
tae rejection of certain clauses in it, considering the parties
by whom that was done, and considering their former opi-
nions,
tai and the general sentiments still said to be enter-
I mnedustby the min regard to the Press. For my own part,
I admit that I was not very eager about these clauses.
tl*
un c, however, that it would tend very materially to
mraise the character of the Press of this country if it were
own who were the persons who conducted it. In saying
thi , I do not wish to say anything which ceuld he consi-
dered disrespectful towards anybody ; but I certainly re-
peat iny opinion that the Press might be every day raised
to a higher standard, as regarded fairness and truth, if
the conductors of it were fairly known to the public, and
I .think that these clauses were very well calculated to
'bring• about this desirable object. Upon this ground,
therefore, I cannot but regret that they were rejected by
this House. As to the conduct of the House of Commons
in setting aside the Bill in which those omissions had been
made, and the passing another Bill without those clauses, I
can only say that in so doing the House of Commons showed
themselves to be not so regardless of the wants and desires
.of the public as your Lordships, under similar circumstances,
!aveeon,etimes proved yourselves to be. The Noble and
teearred Lord referred also to the Bills for the reform of
• the church, which the lateness of the Session, and, I can-
didly odmit it, the opposition which sprung up against them
at that 1:1te period, rendered it impossible to carry through
this Session.. I still consider these to be very valuable mea-
tie
sulres, and calculated to be of the most important benefit to
country. B'eat is there anything so very new or unusual
in the fact of a Ne7nister being obliged to refer till another
Session measures which he was anxioas to carry without fur-
. ther delay ? It would be easy to procure many examples, as
precedents to the preseni case, in which Ministers bad been
obliged to delay their intentions, and defer a measure which
they considered of great importance until a future time.
There is the Act of Union itself, tin instance, which circum-
stances at the time obliged the 11Iinister to defer.—(Hear.)
,New, with regard to
u the matters of fore
manner Noble which evidently
snowed that he had no intention to enter upon nor to pro-
voke a public discursion upon the subject—l must say that
I think the Noble and Learned Lord would have better
consulted the interests and the dignity of the country—which
ate expressed himself so anxious to promote—if ho had ab-
eteined from declaring, in the abrupt manner which he did,
his .opinion that the character of the country was lowered
throughout Europe, and her power and influence come to
nought--terms and assertions, it is true, which are but too
often used in the heat of debate, and with very little signi-
fication or importance of meaning—but which ought not, I
think, to be brought forward on an occasion like the present
20 lightly, and so totally unsupported by any thing like
arA'n ment .—( Hear. ) The very fact of the mediation
which was now going on through the medium of this
country, between France and the American States, cer-
tainly goes a little way to show that there is no diminution
power, no want of authority, on the part of this country
regardin to foreign nations, but that she is still held in
the high light whic% she has so long deservedly occupied.
. I can only say, that if the Noble and Learned Lord still
adheres to the opinions which he has expressed upon this
subject, he will be deserting his duty to his country if be
does not take some more decisive and efficient steps in this
utter. In conclusion—as to holding office, I have only
say, that I conscientiously believe that the well-being
of the country requires that I should hold it—and hold it
1 will—till lam removed.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLlNGTON—Accustomed as my
Noble and Learned Friend has been of late to hear hard
language levelled against himself and others with whom he
acts in this House, I certainly was not surprised to hear
• him, in moving for these papers, take the opportunity of re-
Plying to the sarcasms which have been so often used on
the other side of the House, and of defending the conduct
°f himself and his friends from the charges which have
been so repeatedly made against him' and Noble Lords
with whom he generally acts. The Noble Baron who re-
cently spoke, and the Noble Viscount who has just sat
down, appeared totally to have forgotten the harsh terms
Which had been used by them towards his Noble and
Learned Friend ; and seemed also not to bear in mind
what was the object of the present motion, and what the
tenor of my Noble and Learned Friend's observations were
as connected with the returns he moved for. The object
of my Noble and Learned Friend's motion is to show the
state of legislation at present going on in this country, as
relates respectively to the Houses of Lords and Commons.
In the course of his speech, my Noble and Learned Friend
I°Ok occasion to defend the conduct adopted by himself'
and his friends, in respect to certain measures which had
Slot. P"sed into a law, and also as to certain measures
Which as,
had Pass-ml, comparing them with the announce-
Iyoents eeeeseh had been made of them in the speech de-
..i.Lv•ered by his Majesty from the Throne on the opening
the sea ion. My Noble and Learned Friend has,
WA great ab:lity, shown the fate of those measures which
nave been broui;ht forward by his Majesty's Ministers in
pursuanceof the announcements in his Majesty's speech,
andLahe had also slis.•ivn that measures therein announced
not been carried into effect ; be also shewed what the
fate, of those measures had been, not only in this but in the
ofiantelrisetrlidouse of Parliament, in which we are given to une
that the influence of his Majesty's Government is
:paramount. That was purely the object of my Noble and
Learned Friend's speech, and for that he has been taunted
with the sarcasms of the Noble Viscount, From my own
experience I'must take the liberty of observing that I con-
' eider the conduct pursued by Noble Lords on this side of
the, House throughout the present session to have been
marked with the utmost moderation. For myself I think
. am correct in stating that since the Address to the Throne
• an answer to the King's speech, with the exception only of
, one occasion, when I requested the Noble Viscount to post.
Pane the Corporations (Ireland) Bill till after the Easter
h
::•'—"Ys, I have never been in the House until after Easter.
since that period I have certainly taken part in the pro.
feedings that have been going forward in the House, and I
• felt it my duty to oppose seme of the measures of Go-
Iry lerament ; but I think I shall be borne out when I that
have accompanied the vote which I have given with oh.
nervations expressedin terms of great moderation.—(Hear,
from_ the Ministerial benches.) I have acted on all occa-
OlOns to the best of my opinion, and in a way which I
thought most calculated to be beneficial to the country,
Noble Viscount has been pleased to taunt us for not
ii!`vnig addressed the King with a view to obtain his and
is colleagues' removal from the situations which they hold.
tif the Noble Viscount would look at the manner in which
I.lsto.!ey were appointed to office, if he would look at the whole
y
"r
of the last twelvemonth, I think he would find
sufficient reason for our not having adopted that course of
'neeeding. The Noble Viscount knows very well on what
eSo
as
he stands, and., knowing that, it would have been
Just,. well
in him if he had avoided his taunts against
lor not, having asked the King to remove him from of:
01----(ilear, hear.) I would tae the liberty to recom•
1:-,nd the Noble Viscount to consider himself not as the
:,'4iitilister of a democratic body in another place, but as the
'ster of the Sovereign in a limited monarchy, in a coune
d
tise peat in paint of extent great in its possessions, and in
eiti various interests which, it comprises ; and that, consi-
ng these circumstances
3n , he should in future concoct
41 measures as he has reason to think may pass with the
approval and suit the general interests of all, meet the goodwill of all, and not of one particular party, one
inpar-
ticular Place only. If the Noble Viscount will but follow
that e
to_ ,course for some little time, he will find no difficulty in
but
toucting the business of the Government in this House,
24r_ find everifacility afforded him in forwarding wee-
_ as!s. of the above description.—(llear. hear, from the Op-
tpneit,ton.) I would beg the Noble Viscount to recollect
ifilet, in regard to the Church of England, whether in
~,,Fland or in Ireland. Let him recollect that the avowed
[7,:cy followed by this country during the last 300 years
ia been to retain inviolable that Church Establishment ;
lice a.r.c called here to consult particularly for the good of
e_"ootAurch, and if the Noble Viscount brings forward any
tuuletosures relating to that subject, let him recollect that all
nres of such a kind must be discussed by us with that
particular object in view.—( Hear, hear.) This is not only
:tboltd policy of this House of 300 years' standing, but it
Years uPou which we acted no longer than eight or nine
aaa ngo, when we had occasion to review the safeguards
of this landmarks whereby the Church Establishment
• to Zs' was defended.—(Hear, hear.) With regard
I have myself staid away from the House
)frtei:lptioeesni g.tc.ll°,yupinnotleiye
the course of the present Session, in order
3eet,
and" to avoid entering into discussion upon that sub-
lased to avoid
the
nzisteneento, present occasion I shall not enter very
'eaiiiiYa ?Pon it. The Noble Lord opposite mays, that when
LI entered office I followed the course which found in
oonthop_tell
,s by my preleeessors. My...4LoHrdesa,r when
eknow the mum] a treaty in existence. •
s to carry into
%ter it has not always been thepractice of Mini-
them treaties
them, but I tints forced on
dotY to do considered that on this occasion it via,. my
o.
Aiss step tots hear,) I went further—l took the
"ards at
at counts if least humaiking the proceedings in
reconciliation not ultimately of bringing tha parties to a
()MY for tl ri--(Rear.) I felt desirous of doing this, not
treat • the sake of unanimity, but also on account of the
interest I felt in
a country I had served S 3 long.—
'sn
ers shoulddeeply have the Spain. hostilitie entered epees ,fin active interference
whiede still unfortunately ar,, carried on in
411/' 01 fear, hear.) I will not now speak further upon
is 'e measures which L
trim
rsinhave been proposed, because it
eele wish n t to •
• Carl an 0 involve House in discussions
answer no useful purpose, and w4kl) c4ll Weed

produce nothing but mitchief.—(Heare hear.) I merely
rise to justify my Noble and Learned Friend for proposing
the present motion, and having done so I shall no longer
detain the House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it was quite im-
possible that two speeches could be more different in tone
and temper than those of the Noble Duke and the Noble
and Learned Baron.—(Hear, hear.) They differed lobo
ewe/o. He was surprised that so much time had elapsed
before any Noble Lord rose to support the Noble and
Learned Baron's proposition ; and he was equally surprised
at the tone adopted by the Noble Duke ; because, though
it was quite consistent with the temperance always manifested
by that Noble Duke, yet it was entirely different from the
tone of the Noble and Learned Lord who had proposed the
motion ; and when the Noble Duke said he rose to support
the Noble and Learned Baron, he (the Lord Chancellor)
must confess, that he thought it one of the few instances in
which success had not attended that Noble Duke's efforts.
The Noble and Learned Baron had thought proper to say
that, looking at the whole foreign and domestic policy of his
Majesty's Ministers, he considered that they had disgraced
themselves in the eyes of the country ; yet the Noble Duke
expressly said that he did not wish to see those Ministers
removed frem their office—the Noble Duke could not,
therefore, concur in the opinion previously expressed by the
Noble and Learned Baron. He (the Lord Chancellor)
proceeded to soy that he should not have taken any part in
this discussion had it net been that the Noble and Learned
Baron opposite, in the course of his attack, had thought
proper porticularly to advert to three measures with which
he (the Lord Chancellor) had been connected. If the
Noble and Learned Lord had wished fairly to complain of
the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, he should have
moved for the papers first, and then have brought forward
his charges ; but be (the Lord Chancellor) apprehended
that the Noble Lord found it far more convenient to make
the attack before obtaining the information.—(Hear, hear.)
In the first place, the Noble Lord fell foul of the Stan-
naries Bill, which be was pleased to describe as an un-
constitutional measure—(Hear, hear)—Upon what ground
he (the Lord Chancellor) was altogether at a loss to compre-
hend. The object of that Bill simply was to make more
independent a judge—the vice-warden—who had hitherto
been removeable at pleasure : an improvement which cer-
tainly appeared to be anything but unconstitutional. Anoe
ther measure which had met with the Noble and
Learned . Baron's hostility. was that introduced for the
purpose of effecting a very important, a long and uni-
versally called for, object—the better administration of the
Court of Chancery ; combined with which measure was
another, also loudly called for—to improve the judicial
legislation of their Lordships. To another most im-
portant and desirable measure also thrown out by their
Lordships, the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt Biil,
the objection set up to it by the Noble and Learned Lord
and his friends was the, alleged late period of the Session at
which it was introduced.—( Hear, hear.) Yet this Bill,
so generally called for by the people, was introduced before
the end of June, and surely there still remained enough
weeks of the Session wherein fully to discuss its provi-
sions. No Bill of the present Session had occupied
more than one or two nights in Committee ; yet the
Noble and Learned Lord induced his friends to re-echo
his assertion, that six weeks and upwards was not sufficient
to do justice to the Imprisonment for Debt Abolition
Bill,--(Cheers.) This, however, was not the class of ob-
jection taken to the Court of Chancery Bill, which was
honoured so far as to be considered upon its merits or de.
merits. He (the Lord Chancellor) should not, of course,
think of taking up the time of the House by going into
any statement as to the nature and objects of that Bill. It
was euffieient to say, that it was a measure which provided
a remedy—an easy, if not a complete one—for the crying
evils which so many of his Majesty's subjects daily expe-
rienced from the present system of administration of the
Court of Chancery. Of these evils no one was better
aware than the Noble and Learned Baron; and he (the
Lord Chancellor) was equally surprised and grieved to find
that that Noble and Learned Lord, instead of coming for-
ward to aid by his advice the great work of remedying
them, had altogether opposed the Bill, which was intended
to supply, at least to some considerable extent, that long-
desired remedy—so far from anticipating that Noble and
Learned Lord's hostility, he had fully expected his zealous
co-operation.—(Hear, hear.) So with the other measure
which was designed to facilitate and improve .the admini-
stration of justice in their Lordships' House. It had never
been denied, even by the most hardy, that such an im-
provement was what the public had a right to expect,
and what it beeame their Lordships to accede to. It was no
doubt difficult to fix upon the right remedy and its details ;
but although probably the remedy proposed might not have
been the rescst complete, yet it at least wont to secure; as
far as possible, the object in view, without interfering with
the known and acknowledged principles in which it was
deemed dangerous to make an alteration. It might not
perhaps have 14001) the best plan, but it was at any rate a
safe one. It was to he regretted that what was defective
in that plan, the Noble earl Learned Baron had lent the
aid of hi. talents to rectify—a course which would have
been much more satisfactory to the country thee his re.
jection of the measure illtnKother.—(Hear, hear.) The
last measure which the Noble mid Learned Lord had de-
scribed as involving in disgrace the Minister who /4,41.104
it forward and not carried it through, was the Bill for the
consolidation of the Eecleslq.qpieel Courts—an important
measure, and also one surrounded with many difficulties.
Now, in referenee to this measure, it was generally.
stood, that it was eshe4hetely essential as a preliminary to
this Bill, that both the Bill for thtt he;tgr discipline of the
Church, and also the " Executors", and i‘ wilt" 8411~
should have ..41.1
pai, the House, and neither of those MI6
were passed. He considered this statement as his suffi-
cient exoneration from the abarge not going through
with the Bills which he had undertaken, fleeing 111440
these observations, he would no longer detain the House.
Lord LYNDHURST 4414, two of the Bills mentioned
by the Noble and Learned Lord had passed the House,
After a few words from the Marquis of WENTMEAT H,
the motion was put awl azreed to.
COPYRIGHT BILL.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDO WNE, this
Bill was committed and reported.
The .Marquis of L ANEWOWNE presented certain re
turns respecting trade, commerce, and manufactures, whicl
he said bad been made up to the latest possible period
Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS BILL.
On the motion that the House should go into Committee
on this Bill,

Lord LYNDHURST had no objection to the other
three Bills which embodied parts of that Bill from the
amendments made, in which the other House had dis-
sented ; but be considered that their Lordships could not
adopt the present Bill, without abandoning the determina-
tion they had come to with respect to those amendments,
therefore be felt it to be his duty to move, " that the Bill
be committed this day three weeks."
The LORD CHANCELLOR was surprised at the
maim) made by the Noble and Learned Lord. He begged
their Lordships to bear in mind that everything which
this Bill contained was in the former Bill when it left that
House, and went back to the House of Commons.—
(Hear, hear.) The only argument that had been used to
induce their Lordships to throw out this Bill was that cer-
tain parts of it formed part of another Bill, in which a point
arose which became a point of disagreement between the
two Houses of Parliament. But as this Bill contained only
such parts of the former Bill as were assented to by their
Lordships as well as by the other House of Parliament—
as it did not contain a single disputed point—he did trust
that they would not be of opinion that there existed any
fair ground for opposing its further progress.—(Hear.)
Lord HOLLAND—My Lords, this is passing strange !
It certainly goes beyond anything that I could expect! I
certainly did think that when the Noble and Learned Lord
moved for a list of the rejected Bills, that he did not
maan to add this one more to that catalogue of unfortunate
measures,(Gheers.) My Lords, I remember having
been invited to dim; many years ago with an AmeriT
can gentleman who was 411 exceedingly hospitable man,
and who presssed his company to drink a great deal
of wine more wine I must own, than was pro. ,
per for us to drink. We sat very late. When the dinner
was over, and we were about to retire quietly to tea, lie
stopped us that we might look at a pile of blank bottles
under the side-board, saying, " These are the bottles we
have drunk."—(A laugh.) Now, I cannot help thinking
that the American gentleman in question and the Noble
and Learned Lord, must have had some acquaintance, for
he also appears to doriye a peculiar satisfaction from point-
ing to the black bottles.—,(tAijis-ler,) But there is this
difference between them :my American frier 4 41i urge
us to go hack and drink more. When we thong twe had
settled quietly to our tea, hp did not beg us to return and
drink more bottles, and add to Oot nilf3,-.7-...“-lear, and
laughter.l My Lords, it appears to me impossible for the
House of Commons tp h 2 ye proceeded in a way more de-
serving of your Lordships' cunsideFikt.km than they have
done m this instance. Your Lordships objeete4 4t part
of the former Rd:, and upon that objection the Bill was
lost. The House of Commons then split the P i
ill nto
four different parts, preserving only such portions as your
oibl
Lordibia fpq not object to. I would ask, could there be
ipere conciliatory towards
your
o eoerddisnigi p
sti7er more der eraie
Lord LYNDHURST—What I contend is, that this
Bill 114;t, to consid,er, in connection with the other
Bills, 1,9 (4,4.9 tilt= kii`MlF that in which we made the
amendulGati, t Imp RP RtqClioiß pql if thp amend-
ments are added to ittli burtor t4tttfOme qpa it O'er"
wise, would be to rer:_er its Proceedings ridiculous, After
the conferences, and the freesconeerenees, that have been
held, it ^old be absurd if the same measure were passed
as would lialV'e iFt4q4,d of agreeing to preserve our
amendments, we bad abandonatl4,7o44o
Pr