The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-10 00:00:00

of promoting—whether it instructed the people of Ire-
land in a salutary manner, which was at once bene-
ficial and satisfactory to themselves; or whether it
did not rather attempt to inculcate the principles of
religion by a flagrant violation of the principles of
Christian charity.—(Cheers.) It had been said that the
Government of England never could be unendangered
while the priesthood exercised such an enormous influence
over the laity, and he to a degree assented to the doctrine,
but could not therefore consent to the adoption of such a
remedy as that proposed ; nor would he seek to diniinish
an influence which, if exerted once for evil, was ten times
put forth in all its strength for the accomplishment of
good.—(Cheers.) He would wish to establish the people
and their pastors on a footing of friendly relation with
Government, but did not think that this desirable con-
summation could be effected by offering the peasantry an
education which they could not accept without violating
the duties inculcated by their religion.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from a
report by the Kildare-street Society of somewhat too eccle-
siastical a character for an official document, in which it
was asked whether they should break down the goodly
frame of their religious system, based as it was on an evan-
gelical foundation, to meet the unreasonable objections of
sectarians ? To this he replied, that those sectarians con-
stituted five-sixths of the population, and that therefore
they ought most assuredly to " break down" a system to
which the parties for whom it was meant were so strenu-
ously opposed, for the opinions of the majority of the people
unquestionably deserved to be respected.—(Hear.) He
would ask the Hon. Member for Dundalk, who was so
full of zeal for Protestant doctrines, " ht season and out of
season," whether that religion was likely to gain in Ire-
land by the operations of such an institution ? In his
opinion it certainly would not; and he considered that it
was essentially necessary to give separate religious instruc-
tion to all parties according to their peculiar tenets, en-
tirely distinct from the literary departments of education.
Had the Kildare-street Society worked as it should have
done, there should have been five Catholic teachers out of
every six ; whereas, during the last year there were 123
Protestants to 25 Catholics, and out of 56 female teachers,
there were 48 Protestants and only eight Catholics.--
(Hear, hear, hear.) Now this Society had no funds of
their own, but were exclusively dependent on the Legisla-
ture, and yet the Legislature could not force upon the Pro-
testant managers a single Catholic teacher more than they
thought proper ; for they would at once reply that they
were a private Society, and not to he interfered with. The
Legislature, however, could withdraw the grant, and that
he expected and believed would be the result, for Govern-
ment next year intended to propose the formation of an
institution which would impart instruction to the children
of both forms of religion through ministers of their own
faith, and exclusive grants to either party henceforward
would lie invariably withheld ; for it was the object of
Government not only to educate but to harmonize all put-
ties as far as it was practicable to do so.—(Cheers.) For
the present year 30,0001. would be granted for the Kil-
dare-street Society and the Associltion for Discounte-
nancing Vice ; and the latter institution would hereafter
be gradually reduced within the limits of their own funds,
which were exceedingly circumscribed. In the future in-
stitution it was intended to abide by the recommendations
contained in the report of the commission moved last year
by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury,
and children of all religions would be freely admitted to a
participation of its privileges. The arrangements, more-
over, would be carried into effect by a Board of Protes-
tants and Catholics united, and one day, if not two days,
in the week, would be exclusively devoted to a separate
religious education according to the tenets of the respec-
tive parents of each child. This system, he was sure,
would be hailed with gratitude by the Irish people gene-
rally; but should it be found necessary to establish a Board
of paid Commissioners, he would have no hesitation in
demanding a grant for that purpose, and the House, lie
had oo doubt, would evince ns reluctance in acceding to
it. After etatiog that the usual vote would not be refused
this year, in order to enable the Society to balance their
accounts, the Right Hon. Gen leman concluded by hoping
all irritating language would be carefully avoided by those
.Members who might take part in the brief discussion
which it was probable would ensue.—(Cheers.)
Mr. NORTH spoke as a limber of the Kildare-street
Society. The Commissioner who recommended the grant
to the Society in 1812, strongly enforced the two great
principles of educating the children of Catholics and Pro-
testants together, and teaching them both part of the
Sacred Scriptures. The Hun. Member quoted the re-
port of the Commissioners at great length, to shove what
their recommendations were. The Society had religiously
adhered to its peinaiples of appointing teachers uninfluenced
by religious considerations ; that the catechisms should be
so constructed as to allow religious instruction to be pur-
sued out of school-hours, and that the Sacred Scriptures
should be read without note or comment. The Hon.
Gentleman quoted at considerable length the rules of the
Kildare-street Society, to show that its principles were
liberal in the extreme. The Hon. Member also defended
the constitution of the Society, by which every person might
become a member by atibseribing one guinea a year, or
paying ten guineas. Lord Firigail, a Catholic, was one
of the Vice-Presidents ; and Mr. M‘Lain, a Catholic bar-
rister, had been one of the Committee. Even the Hon.
Member for Kerry was a member of the Society for nine
years, during whiCh he held it forth to public approba-
tion. As a proof of the liberal disposition of the Society,
he might mention that it had formed a model school at
Dublin, over the fern de branch of which it had placed a
Roman Catholic mistress. The Society thought that was
a pledge to the Catholics that it meant to adhere to its pro-
mises. The Society had, in fact, acted fully up to all its
pledges. He denied that the Society was a proselytising
society ; on the contrary, it had taken the greatest care
not to interfere with the faith of either with the teacher or
the scholar. The Catholics objected to the Society,
that it introduced the Scriptures into the schools, and that
was the sole ground of tho charge of proselytism. The
oroiect of the Government would, he was afraid, not sue-
ceed, or only succeed by converting the schools wholly
into schools for Catholics. If the Protestants wets ad,
'flitted at all, it would he only to convert them into Ca-
tholics. Ile believed that the Kildare-street Society would
have done better had it always rejected the grants offered
1
by the. Government. He did not mean to oppose: the plan
of his Majeaty'a Government, though he thought it would
not succeed.
Mr. FRANKLANO LRWIS stated that his Right
Hon. Friend (Mr. Stanley) would not have been justified
in requiring no large a sum of money from the Com-
mittee, to be applied on the mere responsibility of' the
Government, if he had not entered so fully, fairly and
candidly, into an explanation of the system to be adopted.
—(Hear, hear.) Of this he was sure that there must be
one general system of education fur all woo or they
never would succeed in producing that harmonious union
of all classes which it was the great object of the Legi-
slature to accomplish. The main difficulty, he admitted,
was to discover what could be done with the Society
eetiblished in Kildare-street. There could be no doubt
that, at one time, at its first establishment, that Society
held out very stroog, hopes that it would be able to ac-
complish the objects for which it was instituted—
namely, the promulgation of a system of general educa-
tion. The Catholics, from a sense of the benefits to be
derived from 5i;.?,.11 a mygtpm, and with the oroefaect of
its accomplishment, gave the Society for some time
their zealous support ; but it at last got involved with
the schools of another Society—the London Hibernian—
whose avowed object was prosyletism, and the result has
been a failure of their .efforts, He did not mean to cast
any reflections on the Society ; he merely stated the
faCt, that it was impossible to go into the schools
of the IJLdare - street Society without perceiving
from the books the connection which existed between
than and the Hibernian; aod when it was recollected that
the Kildare-street Society allowed the children to be
taught from either catechism, and the iithernian from
only one, it was impossible not to see that the Catholics
roust be disposed to view their connexion with suspicion,
and withdraw their confidence from the schools of the
Society. Thu result has been, that io many cases the
children were taught no religion, because the teachers
were forbidden to comment on the Scriptures, and they
weco read as a mere history, or compound of very dis-
cordant doctrines. He hoped, however, that the state of
the schools throughout the kin,,doni would be thoroughly
examined before they were p;;.t down, as there was a great
dittimence between those of the noith and south of Ire-
land. The books of the Society were the beat which
could be devised, and had even been reprinted in America.
They should be preserved, „end he also thought that the
eeeetein of instructing the sa:lob:lagers might be bene-
ficially retained. The Catholics of Ireland were contend-
ing for the recc/leg of their privileges from those who
had been their conqueteare, He hoped the time was ap-
proaching when they would in everything be placed on
an equn) footing with the Protestantio seendancy, he
trusted, they would neither attain nor strive to attain—
(Hear, hear! from jr,L O'Connell)—for he had no hem-
ttstioit in saying, that he was one of those who would re-
mat teat to the death.—(Hear, hear,) There was nu
despise or hate the
coodpnutitar:imnaetnandtof
oi thetf I,,,t..eoutlheorsk... r
necessity for the one class of religionists being taught to
d
porfis Theree
many instruction.w as ntoo
(A'ciclasion should fur
b anybe left
find how far Protestant and Catholic could go before
they reached a point of difference. He thought there was

no occasion for insisting on the use of the Testament, but
that a general Scripture book, such as that recommended
in the report, might be very properly. introduced in the
place of it. That Scripture book had been accepted even
by the Catholics ; but the Protestants rejected it, because,
in the then state of the question of Catholic emancipation,
they could not consent to adopt any book of that kind
which did not inculcate the superiority of that religion.
Mr. LEFROY said there were in his opinion two ques-
tions to be considered on the present occasion. The first
was, whether they should get rid of the Kildare-street So-
ciety before they were provided with other means of pro-
moting education ; and the next was, whether a religious
education could be given to the children on any other basis
than that adopted by the Society—without the basis of the
Scriptures, which he understood were now to be rejected ?
How, he would ask, did they propose to give a religious
education ? If all human compositions were to be rejected,
how were they, without the Scriptures, to teach that which
rendered education really valuable ? The question was,
whether the people of Ireland, in a body, would he
ready to receive the Scriptures in their national system
of education. That they were heartily disposed to do so,
he could prove, not only from recorded evidence, but by
living witnesses. It appeared by the report of the five
Commissioners, one of whom was a Roman Catholic,
that the number of scholars in the schools established by
the Kildare-street Society, was 57,129 ; and that of
those 29,554 were Roman Catholics. Here, then, there
was more than a moiety of Catholics. Again, in the
Model School of the Kildare-street Society there were
697 scholars; of whom 263 were Protestants of various
denominations, and 434 Roman Catholics. Here, there-
fore, the Catholics were in the proportion of nearly two
to one. Look at the report of the Hibernian School So-
ciety, which the Hon. Member, who had just spoken, had
described as a proselyting Society. It appeared that the
number of children educated by them was 36,295, of
whom 17,656 were Roman Catholics. Look again at the
Capel-street Society. That Society educated 12,623
children, of whom 4,556 were Roman Catholics. Yet,
in every one of those schools the Protestant Catechism was
taught ; and it was essential to them all that a Protestant
should be at the head of each. If they found that in all
these schools the Roman Catholics were willing to partake
of education with Protestants, what foundation was there
for asserting that Roman Catholics of Ireland were not
willing to receive the Scriptures in common with the Pro-
testants, in their system of education? What more de-
sirable mode of education was there in a country, torn by
internal divisions, than the introduction of the Scriptures?
What more rational hope was there of putting an end to
the dissensions which had so long existed ? What could be
more to be wished than that the different parties should
meet OR a common ground, in order to see in what
their difference really consisted? If, after such a meeting,
they should finally differ, yet the disagreement would be
r less than it might otherwise he.—(Hear, hear.) For
what was the tendency of a religious education but to soften
the asperities of our nature, and to teach us mutual for-
bearance and charity.—(Hear, hear.) If such were not
its universal effect, it was not the fault of such an educa-
tion, it was the fault of the overbearing propensities of
human nature.—(Hear, hear.) Reverting to the subject
immediately before the Committee, he observed that the
number of schools in Ireland for the education of the poor
was 11,823. Of those, 7,559 were under the direction
of Roman Catholic masters. In 6,058 of those schools
the Scriptures were read. Deduct from those 6,058
schools the number of schools maintained by the Protestant
Societies, namely 1,900, and it appeared that there were
above 4,000 schools in Ireland under the direction of Ro-
man Catholic masters, and unfettered by any connection
with Protestant Societies, in which the Scriptures were
taught. Bow, therefore, could it be said that the Roman
Catholics of Ireland were averse to the introduction of
Scripture into their schools ? Why, then, were they to be
called upon to deprive the Roman Catholics of Ireland of
the opportunity of receiving a Scriptural education?
There was one circumstance to which he wished to
call the attention of the Committee. Mr. Dounellan,
a Roman Catholic gentleman, one of the Inspectors
of the Kildare-street Society, being asked by the
Commission what was the general extent of the
knowledge of the New Testament by the lower
classes of the Roman Catholics? answered, that he be-
lieved their knowledge of it was but vague. Yet it was
on that volume they were sworn in giving evidence, and
in their other civil duties. Was it not therefore important
that they should be rendered familiar with its contents ?
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Chief Secretary said that
it would be impossible to give to the Catholics and the
Protestants a combined religious education, without pro-
voking controversy. He (Mr. Lefroy) had already stated
facts which disproved that assertion. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had quoted Dr. Doyle in support of his opi-
nions. He (Mr. Lefroy) would quote Dr. Chalmers in
support of his. Against the doctrines of the Roman Ca-
tholics in Dublin, he would quote the doctrines of the
Roman Catholics in Glasgow. In the second Report of
Evidence, it appeared that Dr. Chalmers had stared that
there were a good many Catholics in Glasgow, but that
they bad no objection to the introduction of the Scrip.
toles in their schools. He would also advert to the tes-
timony in the first Report of Evidence of Sir Francis
Blosse, who stated, that after eight years' experience of
schools in which the New Testament was read by the chil-
dren of both persuasions, he had no hesitation in saying
that a mode of education uniting Catholics and Pro-
testants in the same system, and introducing the Bible
into that system, would be most useful. What reli-
gious instruction could be of any value which was not
based on Scriptural knowledge ? When, therefore, the
Right Hon. Chief Secretary said that the Kildare-
street Society did not proceed far enough in communi-
cating religious instruction, the answer was, that it
went as far it could do ; and that it left the rest
to the parents and friends of the children. Regard,
also, ought to be had to the feelings of the Presbyterians
in Ireland. The Presbyterians would not consent to the
exclusion of the Scriptures from their system of education.
\Vas it no evidence of the fitness of the system adopted by
the Kildare-street Society, that under that system the
number of scholars had increased to '79,000 ? It had
been said, that the Roman Catholic Priests wished to
overturn that system. That was merely in consequence
of the orders which they had received from their su-
periors. In 1821, a Bull was sent from Rouse to Ireland
to prevent Scriptural instruction from being continued.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry apprised the
Committee of the Kiidare-street Society of the fact, and,
mounted on that Bull—(A laugh)—the Hon. and Learned
Member stirred up the Roman Catholic Clergy to the most
eilectiwe opposition to the existing system. Until that
period Dr. Tray, who was at the head of the Catholic
Church in Ireland, had gone no further than to declare
than the Scriptures were not fit for a school-book. After
the promulgation of the Bull, lie (Mr. L.) acknowledged
that the opposition to the introduction of the Scriptures
into the schools was active and determined. But was that
House to legislate for Ireland with reference to that Bull of
Rome, or with reference to the wishes and• interests of
the people of Ireland themselves?—(Hear, hear.) The
circumstances of the present period were similar to those
of the sixteenth century, when Parliament backed the
people of England in opposition to the authority of the
Court of Rome. In showing great liberality to all re-
ligions, they would come to exhibit a perfect indifference
to any. To that point, however, the House had not
yet arrived. Although they had done away with poli-
tical distinctions as connected with religious opinioue,
they had not yet repudiated the national faith, they had
not yet repudiated the national religion.—(Hear, hear.)
When a system was proposed to teach all creeds, the
proposition was inconsistent with common sense, as well
as with religious principle. What would be said of a man
in private life who taught opposite and inconsistent
creeds 104 what ought to be said of a Legislature which
prescribed the teaching of opposite and inconsistent
creeds ?—(Hear, hear.) The Kildare street Society had
renounced all connexion with proselyting societies,
and had manifested abundant proofs of their sincerity.
The Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had warned
the House against the introduction of works calculated to
produce feelings of animosity between Catholics and Pro-
testiints. How was it possible to guard against those
feelings ? Look at the books by which, from time to time,
the Prelates of the Catholic Church insisted that the
children of their persuasion should be taught. By their
resolutions they protested against any system of education
in which the books were not of their own choosing, and
in which the masters were not under their own controul.
It was hopeless, therefore, to think of devising any system
which would meet the objections which would be raised in
that quarter.—One word aa to the form of the grant. In
consequence of the letter which they ha, received on the
subject from the Chancellor of the Exchequer,' the Com-
mittee of the Kildare-street Society went on advancing
money from their own pockets, and entering into engage-
ments; and now it was proposeei to vote the money to the
Lord Lieutenant, to be dispensed at hie discretion.. Under
the circumstances which he had described, he thought the
Kildare-street society ought not to be made suppliants to
the Lord Lieutenant, bat that the grant should at once be
made to them as usual.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROWNLOW expressed the high and sincere sa-
tisfaction with which he had listened to the statement of
the Right Hon. the Chief Secretary for Ireland ; an ad-
mirable statement—not more distinguished for its talent
and eloquence, than for the sound, liberal? and practical