The Sun.
London, England, 1807-01-22 00:00:00

sure Web they were called upon by the Centionifin

opposite to repeal but this be did on very different
rounds from those on which. the present system
rested, in nirCh, SOS, when the repeal of the
Additional Defence Bill was proposedYnt a time
When the Bill yielded at the rate -of.Dkomutnert
Year, without; the slightest injury.to 4116 qrdtnary re-
cruiting-, and 'subsequently, when it produced 3.00
Inen'a Week, and when-thus producing at th ' rale of
16,000 inen a year, he had called on Parliament not
to abandon it. Had the Right Hon. Gent. proposed
'gorne. anxiliary Measure which' afforded the County
the probability of giving to it the amount of force
Which it, wanted, while the experiment. of his new
sySte.ni was trying, he might perhaps have been in
Awl- to accede to the continuation of that experi,
Mem. But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in answer to
a question which be had put to him, on *a recent
venitig, had,,distindly disclaimed the supposition
that my such auxiliary measure was in the botnetn-
plation.of his Majesty!s Ministers. Had sail' a mea-
ure been proposed, he should not have been so cbiti-.
Pletely JuSti flea as he now felt himself to be in Opposing
tt system which was not; .only; immediately injuridus,
but prospectively ;desstruaive, to the British Army.
It was for, the present Parliament to consider whether
they would, for the first time, make themselves parties
In this new-system of expence end ruin. For his own
part he felt lie abandoned his public dtity did not he
candidly state to the House that, strong as his im-
pression was of the mischief, disadvantages, and dan-
gers nrisingout of the measure of last year, Rivas
t nothing cotpared with that which he felt in Con-
sidering the effeft which ..the - new code con-
tained in his 'Majesty's warrant of the 7th day of
06tober, for the regulation of the army,, and Which
lead been laid on the table of the House of Cot-nil-ions
during the present Session, was calculated to produce,
It was with considerable regret that he had beard that,
-Right-Hon. Gentleman the last SesSion declare that"
he had made his mind completely up on all the Joints,
of his plan, yet this warrant shewcd that he h4not.
Ventured to execute what he had slated it was his in-
*Dtion to execute. Of this be'tertainly did not torn-.
Plain. But it slimed conclusively a distrust,' on
the part of the .Right..konourahle Gent!einan oil
the very outset of his system, which he must have
considered likely to fai.; ot.'he would not havedii7
appointed the expedati9ns of the soldiers of twenty-
one years service. When he had'stated to the Right
lion. Gentleman that the annual number of these
amounted to five' or six ihousand•men, and that his
rneasure in this respell was likely to counteract it-
self, he listened to those : statements with unbending
firmnesS. But when he came to carry the ineaSilie.
into execution, he dreaded the' consequence's', and
altered his resolution. But there were other-Points
in this code of regulations which 'had trued
the apprehensions of danger In his Mind to swell
into the utmost magnitude : he pledged him-
sclf to bring the subje& before um. House in
depoiled discu.sion, although he had not de-
tetagted whether, to avail himself of the in-
. troddaion of the . Mutiny Bill for that purpose,
Or to move a specific resolution on those points,
Which, in his opinion, seemed likely to involve the
country in fundamental military ruin. Id candour
to the Right-Honourable Gentleman, he would state

three orrfour of the leading points to which he.
rt..3eaed. The first (which was towards the close of.
,4,,
e Warrant), went to the complete subversion of
`e situation of a soldier, as it had hitherto existed
ia the British Army, and to the total destrution of
.allorder and subordination. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had placed the claim of the soldier to a pension
44 a leg,ll cl an. not on the recommendation of
.
• superior Officer, on which alone it could with
safety rest. These pensions were from 6d. to. is. pd.
a day and it was . true, a discretionary-power was
Vested in the Board of Kilmainhani, as to,the indi-
vidual amount. But the warrant• went on to declare,
that no non-commissioned officer or soldier_ should
be allowed to claim of right any such pension,.whqse
disability arose from vice or misconduet. It fol- ,
lowed, therefore, that every one who was not dis-
chaiged from the consequences of vice or miscon-
dud, had a claim which a Court of Justice must

confirm, and this without any limitation of time, j
Without any consideration whether he ,had served 1
two days or twenty-one years. What the effeel of
Pensions granted. by right,' and not on .the recom-
kendation of his superior Officer, would have on the
kind of the soldier, and what etieai the disbursement
of such large sums would have on the Finances of the
,nuntry, it was unnecessary.tor hitrito point out.—
4:he next obje&ionable point in the warrant arose
eta of the, answer to 'the question proposed that
night. by him to the Right Honourable Gentleman.
Alie Right Honourable Gentleman stated that. none
Of the soldiers who had served 21 years had been
discharged, but that he considered them as entitled
to all the advantages of his measure. By that
Ileasure, a soldier who had, served 21 years was •
entitled to retire on a
(pension of Is. a day, or
181. bs. a year. If he remained in the service, he
'was to receive an addition to his pay of a halfpenny ,
• day, or tbs. a. year, and another addition of
• halfpenny a day, on every succeeding year in
'which lie' might choose to continue in the army.—
Aow it would be found that Atte men who had served
twenty-one years, were generally under 50 years of
u&e. If, therefore, they continued in the army, it
14'as probable that on the average they mightflq,49
for seventeen years.. The first additional 13s. t9i
Yearly pay would therefore be worth.bet weenttwelve
and thirteen pounds sterling., The. next 'yeat-':si:is.
Would be only fraCtionally less valhable, and so on..
3:he efreCt of this system would be to crush the
k-puntry with the enormous expence, unless It was
arrested by the band of Parliament. Let the Honse
also, consider the etfed of this system of pensions on ,
Vie men sent early in life to the East and West
Indies it ordained, that the soldier who had.
le.rved 14, years in India should be entitled to
discharge, and the same pensions as the man
_,•
P 0 had served f 2.1 yearS in other circumstances. The'
;hat
of the East Indies was healthy. SuppOse
:bat a soldier went out at 18 years of age, at 32,
e,c°r(ling to. the Right Honourable Gentleman's
ot the subject, he would become a'veteran,
- (l be entitled to retire :on a pension of 181. 55.
o whichr on the average he would probablY receive
o,:a. years ! Now, he Would put it to the House,
it was possible, under such a system, to con-
v, ith the evils by which we were: threat-
would trace the operation one step far-
tilt A great number of these men would stay in
a'n'Y, suppose for eight additional years, he

*-ouid then be entitled to an accumulated pension of
271.7.5. 6(1.- and the probable duration of his life be-
ing 22 years, a bounty to the amount of that sum of,
271,. 7s. 6d. would,thus be given on every year that
he had served. But he wished to know what would
he the situation of the Right Hon. Gentleman when he
came to disband the army, or to reduce it-to the Peace
d,Fstablishment.? Did he consider the nature of the
iscretion which he would then be called upon to 'ex-
ercise ? fie would have three classes in which to dis-
tribute his discharges ; but how; without saddling the
Country with an expence which it was not equal' to
pay, could he avoid making his discharges out of the
first class, and yet by doing that he would discharge
the flower of the army., Among the regulations of
the warrant it was stated, that those who were dis-
charged should receive their pensions,, but that they
should be bound to obey the directions of 'Chelsea
HOspital, and cottfelo serve in the Veteran Battalions
when they were called upon. In theconrse of a few
years, however, these veteran battalions would be
composed of Men in the prime Of life; and
sensing -a . 'complete knowledge of their profes-
sion. How' could Government then avoid • con-
sidering those battalions as most tit for .active
service, for foreign service, and more particular.:
ly for West- India. service, for Which they were
peculiarly-fitted ?, And thus ail the motives held
out, and by which .men were to be
,seduced into
the army, would cease to operate. He -‘epeated that
he was little-disposed to consider the situatima of this
Country in a gloomy point .of view. He bad great
confidence in .its strength-4e had great confidence
in its resources; and he was happy to find that the
Gentleman oppoitehegan to-think with him on-this
latter subject. But it ever there was a moment in
the history of any Country in which pecuniary eco,
nomy was itore indispensibly necessary than in any
other, this vas the moment; 'and Great Britain the
Country. The Right Hon. Gentleman, he was sorry
to observe, has shewn himself indifferent, not only to
the economy of money, but also to the economy of
time. Adverting to the capture of Buenos Ayres,
li expressed his anxiety to know why so long a
period had been suffered to elapse before the rein -
forcementS had been sent to secure the possession of
that valuable Province. in June Government receiv-
ed advices from St. Helena, that the Expedition had
touched there, on its warfrom the Cape. .1-le. was.
convinced, that within ten days of the time when
those advices were received, three regiments of
infantry might haver sailed ; and, whether the place
was tenable or not, it would not \have embarrassed
his Majesty's service to have sent that reinforcement,
as it was necessary that troops should go to India';
unless they sent-a letter of recall to the forces at
Bacons Ayres, Ministers had no option but to send 'a
reintorcernent. Instead of doing this in the middle of
June, they did not send a man until Oolober ; 'that
was, until Lord Lauderdale's return to this Country;
thus plainly Chewing that his motions were the
governingvrinciples of their actions, and evincing a
culpable negleet- of their duty by abstaining from a
vigorous exercise of the power and resources of the
country entrusted to them, at the moment when
energy would have been particularly serviceable. His
Lordship
.concluded by declaring, that he should
not oppose the passing-of the Resolution, but that
he had-deemed himself bound to state to the House
what he thought of the present Military Establish.
tnent of the Country, and the dreadful evils which
he was convinced would result from a perseverance
in the Right Hon. Gentleman's military plan.

Mr. Secretizra WINDHAM, in rising to reply to
the speech, tife Noble Lord,- felt that there wire
many of his charges which it was impossible for him
to retaliate Tat hours before he was readyle, re-
move that part of the Noble Lord's accusation .Which
reproached him with taciturnity; and certainly the
,masa of extraneous matter which the Noble Lord
had introduced into his speech had increased the
subje& of reprOach—because it was impossible for
kith to follow the Noble Lord through the whole of
his arguments. From all that had been said by him
in thriller debates, he did not conceive that it would
be necessary thr hiM to express himself Much at
length, and he should therefore in this instance ad-
here to taciturnity, by being as brief as possible. It
might be thought. that a long speech called fot a long
reply, :but here the Noble Lord' had imposed Upon
.him the taciturnity, becaose he was not, at that late
• hour; to consider the time that might be spent in a
reply, but the time that remained to be spent.—
:When he hid opened his measure in detail to the
House, he had been obliged to do so in a speech of
considerable length, a thing to which he always • felt
a reluctance, but thy_ Noble Lord's incidental speech
of this night kept that in countenance. The Noble
. Lord had only touched lightly upon the topics which
he•had intimated his intention of discussing more at
length on some future day. In replying to what had ,
been said by the Noble Lord, he should first recur to
that which was still fresh in the retolleaion of the
House, and which the Noble Lord had no right to
advert to, because it did not belong to the question
before the Comtniuee be should refer to that poirit
as a specimen of the Noble Lord's reasoning. It
would make the House distrust similar assertions
n hid) the Noble Lord might again make the found-
ation of the most extraordinary conclusions. The
Noble Lord had set out•with a ilia which :was net
founded. He had stated, that His Majesty's Minis-
ters had received the accounts of the destination of
theExpeJition to Buenos Ayres, from St. Helena, in
the early part of June, and had yet neglected to send
out the proper reinforcements in time. The fad
was, that these accounts bad not been received till
the 24th of June ; that was the first notice Govern-
nient had of the Expedition, for which they were
certainly unprepared. No improper delay, had taken
place. It was not in ten days that an' Expedition
could be prepared, as • stated by the Noble Lord, to
cross the Atlantic. The tranaports which had been:.
left by the former: Government might have been sut:-I
fur an Expedition across the Channel, but
were not yet tit .for one across the Atlantic. Yet,
as Government knew of the Expedition only on ahe
24th of June, it was impossible that any I.Npeelition,
conveyed even by' a Balloon; could havearrii.ed iu
time to prevent the re-capture of that Settlement oh
the 12th of August, if the accounts oe that event
were well founded. The Nohle Lord had been eq eel ly
mistaken as to the date of ;he capture oc that Settle-:
meat, au as fo the expedition of the passage of toe
Narcissus. The capture of Buenos Airs had taken
place early in July; and not on the with of juue, as
stated by the Noble Lord ; and the Narci4ia, One
of the fastest sailing.. Vessels in the Service. fold a

4
single onip to, nan been eiglitweeks on her "pesSege,
He had stated' thus much, in tinder to •expose the
systeM of:the'Noble Lord's reasoning As to alio-
: ther topic,' which con ,sti tuteda very conaidetable part
of the Noble Lord's incidental speech, namely, the
experice of the measures of la,it Sessiuin, that had
been so much agitated-, and with so little success by
the Hon. Gentlerhan opposite last year, that he was•
sure those Gentlemen who had heard them, had
never thought they should hear of it again. The
Noble Lord, in calculating the expence of these mea-
sures in the last Session, had fallen into a whimsical
inconsistency. • He first calculated the eXpence that
would arise from discharging the men, and therfagnin •
calculated the amount of expence from their remainL
ing in the service: There was an old saying, that
nothing could be. so fallaciOns as an'aceount, and. he
thought that the same might be said of a calcula-
tion. What was the basis of the Noble Lord's cal-,
culation ? That the life of a soldier, .not whilst in
• the service, but when discharged from -it,• after hay,.
ing exhausted his constitution in every: quarter of
the globe, was the Barrie • the life of • any other
man, after having served: 14 or e t years in the East
Indies: Give him but his basis, and he must triumph.
It was a matter•of doubt with him, however, whether
that basis so granted would bear the Noble Lord out.
The Hon. Gentleman opposite talked' of the ex-,
pences, as if they \vele merepremiurn for the re-
cruiting the -army. He' did not deny that it would
be an inducement to men toenliSt, to make a provi-
shin for their comfort and ease after their period of
' service. But an expence could not:be great: except
by comparison with its object. One hundred pounds
•
would be a great expence ter- an objed worth only
five ; at the same tune that one hundred thousand
pounds would not be a
„great expellee, if the object
were worth. that sum. • The Volunteers seemed to
be a favourite service with :the. Hon. Gentleman op-
posite. They . had lotted. fault with the redudion,
not of the establishment,,but of the expence of that
body. The, reduction was only to bring back all the
Volunteers to the same allowance, by withdrawing
the additional allowances to some; favourite corps,
and was desired by. the, great' majority of
leers. By this reduction 'there was a saving of
300,0001. with which the HOD. Gentleman seemed
dissatisfied, ):et, when it came to be a question
-about 'granting some increase of pay or allowances
_platten who spent their lives and Impaired their con,
• stitutions in the service of.their country, they doled
out their portion with a niggardly hand, and made it
.a matter of reproach against him that he had brought
the measure forward.. But he was not ashaMed of
the reproach ; he would take the swell of the ob-
jeds and of the expence,' and appear before the
world and. posterity ',to answer for their reproach.
They said that the then, could be procured on better
terms. They might haVe a scheme by which a body
of men might be starved for lessexpenee than they
could be supported in ease and comfort ; but surely
there could be no real objection to au increase of
allowance which had continued, unaltered since the
Bth of Charles IL when they heard every day of
applications for an increase of salaries.—As to the
Noble Lord's charge, that the increase of allowances
to the Navy had'*isen out. of the:increase to the
:Army, he had been as correa : in' this_ as in his,,
• other assertions f-for it- happened U. -mforiunafely for
the Noble Lord's argurneot, that the increase to
the .Navy had been,first granted. This he observed
in order .to set 'tlie Niible'tord right : as for. the
rest, he would ask Whe'll-,er the- increase.was, ,more
than it ought-to be ? not,,it was idle to talk about its
amount. Was it'not right that men who had worn
out their, healthy and lives in the service of their
Country should .have some provision made for them
that would secure to them comfort and ease in their
old age ? It was rather a whimsical argument for
the Noble Lord to use, that .the Men who could
look forward to a comfortable provision would be
trickers—whilst those whO should be obtained,by
crimps, fand whose morals were corrupted by .the
large bounties, would be,fitter persons for the Army.
The money that was advanced in the latter case was
destrudive of discipline, whilst the other objects
of .eventual Support and comfort were best calcu.
dated. to promote it. Every thing- that the soldier
would have to expe& at the end of his serviee'would
. be.a pledge of his good condua. .The first objea of
the measure was, to insure a comfortable provision
for the soldiers after their service ; and the. next
was, to get a better description of men. Besides, it
would have a natural tendency to lower the bounty.
The recruiting at present produced two to one more
than in any correspondent periOd of any fyrmer year,
and there had been already a reduaion 'of five gui7
neas in the bounty. Though that reduction was at
present but five guineas, he did not bound his ex-
peaations to that sum. When the measure should
be well known, and its effects felt in the country,
he looked to its reduaion altogether. As to the
effe& of the measure in time of peace, instead of
discharging the men from the first class, they should
be discharged from the others, in which case they
would
.be, always at the service of the country, on
the renewal of war, without the intervention of
high bounties. The same practice' had prevailed in
Rome, and he believed in the -French navy. This
consideration would console the Noble Lord. As to
what the Noble Lord had said of the inefficiency of
the measure, he should not follow him into the de-
tail, but take a more compendious' course, by with-
drawing the foundation of his argument. It did
not rest on better grounds than the Noble Lord's
assertions respectingßuenos Ayres. ' The Noble
Lord had ascribed to him, and to the great man who
Was now no more, of whom he could never himself
think, but with regret, nor even without having his
heart filled with feelings of kindness, that they had
urged the necessity of raising the Military Establish-
ment of the country to a very high degree by this.
measure. But there was a distinaion to be made'

between the expediency of augmenting the Military
Establishment of the' country, and measures for
forcing its Military Resources into aelivity by sud-
den and violent means. The hitter he disapproved
of, as, however likely to have a temporary effea,
they could not but in the end exhaust these re-

sources. As to the strielurei which thy Noble Lord
`had imputed to hiM on the measures of former Ad--
tninistrations, they might have been right or wrong,
but there was nothing in the Measures that bad been

rtcomniended by him since, that was ivonsistent:
with them. All that he had•said waSdireCied against
measures fiat' forcing the Military Resources of
-the country for temporary purposes. Such had
been the• Army of Resurre. such the Pariqh P.;P

His obsetratiom haa hetet been dite&ed against
the measures which might have been calculated
to . answer the pulp ores for which they were
intended, but against laying violent bands tipon
the means of providing a permanent supply for the
army. He still Continued of the same opinion with
respea to those measures, hut he would not allow
that the Parish TIM was entitled to the same credit
as the former measure, which had raised above4o,ooo
men in a short time. He should nut enter into any
detail to shesv that the second Additional Force
A& 'had not been prodnaise. Whatever increase
had taken place in the. Army during the Administra
tion' ofthe author of that Bill, Was wnollyoWing to
the measures of the antecedent Administration, the
insufficiency of whose ,military messores had been
made :the ground of its removal fro‘O oillee. If i;e,
were to deckia from the increase of the Army during
_the late Administration, the number that had been
obtainedfrom the Army of Reserve, and that bld
been recruited frorothe Militia, the remainder woe 11
not be an objea of apprehension to atiy, Administra's,
flan. :What he wished to impresS tipoit the House
was, that there were tWo classes of measures for re-:
cruiting the Army. The first was such as the Army_
of Reserve, which formed ti:c military reschrees of
the country in this instance, but afterwards eshausis
ed and relaxed them. The other class was calcu-
lated to procure not an immediate, but a, regular,
copious, and permanent supply 'for the Army.---a
This distlnetion would do away the futility of the
Noble Lord's reasons. He. had never said that any
immediate step ply was expeaed, and some of his
frit:ills:lS" had thought that he had not been sanguii-ie
'encaugii With respe& to its..eifeas. His hal heshi
" Non sunnun ex fulgorc, sed 'ex fumo dare lucern."
As to the charge of,the failure of his, measure, he
- should only say, that when it shookl„be known, he
was convinced that it would ohtain:allbf the popula-
. tion-of the eeuntry that it would be desh*ahle to.have
enter into., the Army. 'As to the means Of putting
the Army qn a footing to obtain this class.of the pas
pulation,:at broad distinaion was necessary,_ The
first was by making the service eligible to that part
of, tint population, and next the adoption of the pros
per measures for facilitating the recruiting. The
first mode would be of service in any other that it
might be, necessary to adopt.. Eyee insase corns
pulsory measures should be found necessary, .this
would do no harm. If the circumstances Of the
'country should render another An -lay of Reserve re=
quisite, this would make it less otferons :and severe:
The Noble Lord had said, that-the measure bad fail-
ed but if what he had himself stated were ,true, so
far from having failed, the measure was on hs .vay to
complete Success. The only criterion to the success
of a measure was, a comparison of what it fray done
with w'hat had been promised. He appealed to those
Gentleinen :who had been: present at his openiess
Speech, ‘v het her he bad promised any great influA
into the Army, in the first instance, from his !fleas
'mire ; . The reverse, of this was,the case. The for-
Ingots:tea:hire had produced a number of men aofirst,
but failed afterwards. This measure he bad stated
was one that would grow up with time, till it should
atibrd a copious supply to the Army. As to the sc•
cosation of the Nubie Lord, that he had neglated
to.fbrward the exectUirirroftis awn ineatire, fie had
no objection to sacrifice himself for the sake of his
measure. Hit would do as the man who Used to sell
i game at College did : when. told that his gable
smell-
ed, badly No-Sir, No Sir, (replied he) ',tis I that, smell.."
The progress of thiS, like every great measure, must
he sloW, but it bad not been
.as slow as. he supposed
it .woold. -The measure was not yet in full opera-
tions nett; were various details- which could not
have been,hitherto put into executiou— The Chefs
- sea Pensioners',. increase had not, yet been made
I, public,. to ;the ohje&s of it. The Aft —had passed
in the interval between the payments, and it was
not to any. purpose to ,make the increase known
till this Christmas payment. , When -every one
of those Pensioners in every part of, the kingdom
shall be seen in possession of their improved in-
comes, -.the circumstances must have a considerable
effe& on the recruiting., The people, who know no-
thing of the Ants of Parliament, will have satisfac-
tory evidence. of -the benefits derived from the mea-
sure, and every pensioner will be an assistant to the
recruiting service. He had said thus much of the
measure, from which he now entertained a greater
prospect than ever But-it was rather Whimsical to
hear that Noble Lord talk of the failure of a meas
sure—or contend, that it may have failed,at
first, it might not be successful afterwards.--
The Army-'' of Reserve had succeeded in the
hrt instance, thoogh it had failed afterwards.---a
The Parish 'Bill participated in the- defeats of both.
Though it had been passed in the month of July, it
had not produced • a Single man in the month of
September. The first return shewed him it had
produced but six Men. In -061ober, 1805, when it
was to 'have produced 40,000 Men, it had produced
btit 8000 ; and in the. two years in which it bad
been in operation, it had produced but 15,000.—
This would be enough to teach the Noble Lord not
to be forward to condemn measures for failure. The
Parish Bill had created. penalties to the amount of
500,0001. and though it had never, been said that
it -would not produce men--produced them in a way
onerous and injurious -to the morals of the people.
Besides, it contained in itself the'seedS of its own
destrOait), The great benefit of Ole present system
was, that it
.would provide for ,the progressive sup-
ply of the Army. n
.progiessi6n made pith pre-
fer it to any measure that would have a sudden or a
violent operation—because the state of the Army
was such, .being 112400 stronger than at the be-
ginning of the last year, as ndt to require such mea-
sures. For this state of the Army, or the measures
that had produced it, Ire did not take any credit to
himself. The statements of the Noble Lord appeared
to him to be founded on fallacious grounds respeaing
the soccos of the recruiting during the last- year. He
had himself a statement to male on this head which
was founded on accounts that the House could relr
upon. They were the accounts from the Office of
the Inspeacas General of Recruits. All the accounts
of this Office were kept with the greatest regularity
and all the business of the recruiting of the kin,t-
dont was carried oti through this Office, dud by the
Inspeaors of the Recruits in the differeet districts.
By a noniparison of these accounts with the ac-
:coontssof correspondent periods of former years, I*.e
found that there was a growing increase, small at
first, but at: length amounting to ati exesss -in the
proportiout oftwoso one. If the Nobte Lord-should ohs