The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

EVENING,

Belgium, but he (Mr—Hume) did not believe it. He
c.eisiuered that no people on the face of the earth were
more heavily taxed than the English, especially the
middle classes of them. But even if they could bear the
burdens that were placed upon them, that was no reason
why they should be deprived of a single shilling more
than was absolutely necessary. He wished to know
under what peculiar circumstances this country was at
present placed to require a larger amount of money for
keeping up her establishments than she did in 1835 ? In
1835 the national expenditure was only 44,000,0004, and
now it was 54,000,0001. He could not trace causes for
such an increase, and the matter, he thought, was de-
serving of inquiry. His Hon. Friend the Member for
the West Riding did not desire to make an immediate
reduction in the expenditure; he wished that it might be
lone gradually. Ia 1821 an Hon. Member—Mr. Bankes
—moved for the appointment of a Committee to con-
-dder the question of the public expenditure, and yet
the army establishment of the country was by no means
as great then n,s it was at present. In 1821 the army
consisted of 81,240 men ; now it was composed of
113,000. The Committee, in their report, begged to
assure his Majesty that they felt deep satisfaction at the
,iesire of the then Government to revise the taxation of
the country with the view of relieving the people of the
burdens which were pressing upon them. Increased
salaries in the public offices was also a question which
was prominently alluded to in the report of the Commit-
tee; and the same matter was likewise strongly observed
upon by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Addington in the course of
debates in that House in 1803 and 1804. It was then
stated that in consequence of the stoppage of cash pay-
ments in 1797, and an increase in the price of food, it
was necessary to raise the salaries of these who had
perhaps 700/. to 1,000/. a year, and those who had
1,000/. a year to 1,5001., but no such causes existed now
for raising salaries and keeping up war establishments.
It was not, however, of the extent of our military
terce that he complained. There were other depart
ments in connexion with the public service which were
equally heavy in proportion. Ho would mention, for
example, the ordnance department. In 1792 the
expenses of the ordnance department were 4,8484; in
1828 the expenses were 151,000/.; and now the expendi-
ture of that department was estimated at 471,000/. for
the year. In 1828 a committee, which was appointed to
inquire into the subject of taxation, called the attention
of the House, in their report, to the enormous increase in
the public expenditure, and pointed out how, in their
opinions, it could be decreased without detrimert to the
public service; and the result was that the ordnance
force was soon considerably diminished. England was
now at peace with the rest of the world, and why could
not her military and naval establishments be as safely
reduced as they were at that period? With all due
deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
must say that he had heard no answer given to the
Honourable Member for the West Riding with
respect to his question on the subject of the cause
of the enormous increase which had lately taken
place in the public expenditure. In the report of the
Committee of 1828, it was also stated that, however de-
sirable it might be in the opinion of the Committee that
this country should for some time after the conclusion of
the last war keep up a large military establishment, yet
they thought that the extent of the force ought to be
regulated by the circumstances of the nation. They,
moreover, felt it their duty to urge upon the House the.
expediency of considering the pressure on the finances!
of the country, and the necessity in consequence of re-I
ducing taxation. An urgent appeal of that kind, made'
after the circumstances were duly weighed, ought to
receive consideration and be acted upon.—(Hear, hear.)
Of the 58,000,000/. of taxes, 28,000,0004 was permis.
nently applied to the payment of the interest upon
the national debt, but he saw no difficulty in making
a reduction of 10,000,0001. in the balance of 30,000,000/.
His Hon. Friend had, in his opinion, made out a very
strong case, and ho should give his cordial support to the
motion.

Mr. HERRIES called upon the Rouse to remember
what was the motion which was under their considera-
tion. It was essential that the nature of the motion
should be understood. The question was that they
should go into Committee of Supply upon the estimates;
but before doing so the Hon. Member for the West
Riding called upon the House to agree to a reduction of
the expenditure of the country to the amount of'
10,000,000/. They were called upon to reduce the ex-
penditure to that amount immediately. And considering
the manner in which the motion of the Hon. Member
had been hallooed on at public meetings he was surprised
to see how little interest was taken in it on the other
side of the House. The debate was about to languish
for want of supporters when the Honourable Member
for Montrose rose, and he (Mr. Herries) did not think
that he had added anything of great importance or of
weight in favour of the motion of the Honourable Mom bar
for the West Riding.—(hear, hear.) The House,
having before a perfect knowledge of the condition
of the country—having also heard the explanations of
that evening—was now called upon to say whether it
was practicable to reduce the expenditure by 10,000,0001.
It the motion were that they would use all practicable
diligence to reduce the expenditure of the country then©
was no one on either side of the House who would say
nay to it. It was a libel upon the House to say they
were not anxious to reduce the expenditure as far as
they could with a view to the safety and the welfare of
the country. By-the-bye, he was reminded of the com-
pliments which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had paid to the Hon. Member for the West
Riding for the tone and the temper with which he had
introduced his motion. No doubt the manner of the
Hon. Gentleman was calm, and his tone was fitted to the
temperature of that House; but he could not help re-
membering that that was not the first time they had
heard the projects of the lion. Gentleman.—(Hear,
hear.) He could not help remembering that, for the
last six months, nothing else had been ringing in the
ears of the people of Liverpool, and Manchester, and
other great towns.—(Cheers.) True, they had heard
that night no diatribes against the aristocracy—(Herv.
hear)—no insinuations that the army was kept up for
the sole benefit of the young men of rank and fashion—
(hear, hear)—had been indulged in there. But if the
Hon. Gentleman was to speak two languages, he (Mr.
(ferries) would infinitely prefer that he would be violent
there and decorous out of doors—(Loud cheers)—rather
than that he should be decorous there and violent where
violent language might bo productive of bad effects. lie,
for one, could not join in the compliments which had
been paid to the Hon. Gentleman. And while upon that
topic he could not help saying that the conduct of the
Government upon the estimates during the last session
had very mainly supported the agitation of which they
had good reason to complain. The estimates were
submitted to a Committee—they wore abstracted,
as it were, from the cognizance of the House—
withdrawn from that Lull discussion which, in all proba-
bility, they would have received, and during which such
full explanations might have been elicited as would
have rendered it impossible for the attempt to agitate to
succeed. He said the House was not used fairly in re-
gard to the estimates last year. It was understood in
the House that the estimates were referred to the Com-
mittee unconditionally, yet one of the first resolutions
they came to was, that they would not enter into
any consideration of the policy of the estimates.
But that was the whole question as far as the House
was concerned.—(Hear.) The secretaries for the vari•
ous departments came down and very quietly took votes
on account, the House believing that such a
step was only taken until the Committee re-
ported. The House had been kept in ignorance
of the fact that the Committee would not report upon
that subject. therefore he charged the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with, in
some measure, having created the agitation, but which
he had certainly done good service that night in allaying.
They had been told that the revenue and the expendi-
ture wore to be eqUalised—a gratifying announcement,
and one which rendered it unnecessary for him to say
more upon the subject until the estimates were regularly
before the House. The Hon. Member for the %Vest
Riding had provoked a comparison between the expendi-
ture of France and of England, and had drawn the com-
parison as unfavourably for England as possible. lie
thought that House had enough to do to discuss the
affairs of our own country, without affecting to criticise
the proceedings of any other.—( flear, hear.) He was
sorry to enter upon the subject, but he was provoked to
it by the Hon. Member. Neither could he altogether
regret the circumstance, because he thought a very im-
portant lesson might be learned by a comparison of the
conduct of the two countries in financial matters. If
they would review the finances of Franco and England
for the last twenty-eight years, they would see great
reason to applaud the English House of Commons and
Government, as compared with those of France. lie
would show the comparative progress of expenditure
and revenue in the two countries which had been brought
so prominently under the notice of the House; but he
begged the House to remember that he was not a volun-
teer upon the occasion, but he had been provoked into
the comparison. lie found that in 1820, a year when
our army of occupation had been withdrawn, and France
had returned to what he might call her normal state, the
expenditure was 3c000,0001. English; 1821, 35,230,0001.;
1822, 38,000,000/. ; 1823, was the single exception to
all the years between 1820 and 1830, which was the
time of legitimacy—in that year there was the unad-
vised expedition into Spain, and the expenditure was
41,000,0001.—th0 other years ranged a little under or a
little over 38,000,000/. In 1830, a considerable change
had taken place in France a revolution happened,
which was expensive.—(Hear, hear.) All revolutions
were expensive, and those who promoted them ought to
tell the people so.—(Cheers.) In the happy year of
revolution the expenditure was 60,000,000/.; 1832 and
1833 it was 44,000.000/-4 was then successively
40,000,000/, 41,840,000/, 38,800,000/, 40,000,0001!,
41 600,0001., 42,400,0001.; until in 1840 it rose to
44,000,0001.; 1841, 46,800,0001.; 1842, 54,000,000/.;
1843, 52,400,000/ ; 1844, 55,700,0001.; 1847 it was
60.000,000/., and in 1848—another year of revolution—
it had arisen to 72,000,000/. These latter years proved
that the pressure from without, instead of being econo-
mical, was wonderfully expensive. A new dogma
had been started .amongst the gentlemen of the Man-
chester school, that the more property was subdivided
the greater was the security against war, for every pro-
pietor knew (het he must bear the cost. Were net
these Gentlemen aware that during the whole period of
the inereestng expenditure in France that subdivision o'
property }ad been going on—did they not know that
such subdivision of property was partly the cause of the
war? Much of the increased exp,nditure had
higherb, been
caused by the expedition to Algiers, which the
and more educated of the French people were much
against; but
.buitaetthethperellsounr.e fGroemntlwernitahnourtetal,ea.cst
. he
when he again urged thedemocraticn
tuopoo strongnt
when he next urge.l
might choose to give the prefe
over the monarchic principle. but
tell them that if they
on his followers, lit him honestly .
democratic principle they must put
preferred the run people on
ot at
igtei t a
their
lih_ands in their pockets. Now, then, lock at the
E
Mr. II ME—Look at the expenditure of America.
Mr. HENRIES continued-110 could not compare the

FEBRUARY 27, 1849.

American Government with the English, because it was
impossible to tell what the expenses of a government
were when every independent state had an expenditure
of its own to bear. He was not going, however, to de-
fend extravagance or any unnecessary expenditure; but
he was going to show that wo had been more careful
than our continental neighbours, and that there had
been nothing like a sudden passage in our expenditure
from 38.000,000/. to 72,000,000/, as there had been in
France.—(Hear, hear.) lie found that the income
of this country from 1820 to 1825 was 56,000,000/., just
about what it was at present, During the next five
years, from 1825 to 1830, it was 54,000,0001. From
1830 to 1840 it averaged 47,000,0001. The expenditure
of these years from 1830 to 1840 was the least from
the year 1820 down to the present time ; but it
was-one of these years which had been chosen by the
lion. Gentleman as the standard to which the present
expenditure was to be reduced.—(Hear.) During the next
five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure rose to
49,000,0001.; and last year it was 54,100,000/. re-
sult of the comparison, then, which he had instituted
between France and England for the last twenty-eight
years was, that in the latter the expenditure was nearly
the same now as it was twenty-eight years ago, namely,
56,000,000/.; whilst in France it has risen from
35,000,0001. in 1820, to 72,000,000/. in 1848.—(Cheers.)
In reviewing this period of our history, there was an-
other topic worthy of consideration, and that was the
amount of taxes which had been repealed of late years.
—(Hear, hear.) He found that since the year 1814
taxes had been reduced or entirely removed, to the
amount of 53,394,000/. Against that, 14,0J0,000/. of
new tax's had been created, so that there was a total
diminution in the annual taxation within the last thirty-
five years of no less than 39,000,000L—(Hear, hear.)
This was a result of which England had good reason to
be proud, for no other country in the world could
exhibit anything like a comparison with such
a satisfactory statement. It should operate, moreover,
as a lesson upon those out of doors, who were cla-
morous for a substitute of direct for indirect taxation,
•tnd should show to them the advantages of a mixed
system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he must say
that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the West Riding had been exceedingly ill supported.
They had all heard of it long since, and that was to have
been the night when the battle was to be fought. How
had it been fought?—(Cheers and counter:cheers.) Why,
the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly abandoned, apparently
by all his friends.—(Cheers and ironical laughter.)
Why, nobody rose to second him.—(Renewed laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had certainly manfully resisted the motion. He
(Mr. Herries) wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
sisted it more firmly—still he had resisted it, and that
was something. The Hon. Member for Montrose did
not tackle to the motion at all ; he had not stood by the
motion. He (Mr. Herries) was for reduction if you
could make it ; he was quite ready to go with the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, if he would go step by
step, and take precautions, but he could not believe that
the Hon. Member was earnest in making this motion.—
(Hear, hear.) lie did not think that the Hon. Member
for the West Riding anticipated any success from this
motion. _ _

Mr. COBDEN—Wait; wait a little.
Mr. HERRIES—He hoped they would come to the
discussion of these estimates in a different spirit; that
there would be au earnest desire to effect the utmost
possible reduction—(Hear, hear)—that there would be
no thought or wish to take one single step that might
not be conducive to that end, that might diminish the
strength of this empire, or impose on the military ser-
Tants of the country heavier burdens than they now
bore, should they be called on to do the same work with
diminished numbers.—(Hear, hear.) With agitation he
would not go a single step—agitation, founded on pre-
tended grievances without reality, and directed in op-
position to classes who deserved not, either for their
conduct past or present, the obloquy and invective which
the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and those who
acted with him, had too frequently employed.—(Hear,
hear.) Lot not Hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Minis-
terial side of the House impute to those who sat on the
Opposition any disposition to repudiate economy. With
respect to local burdens, he thought the Hon. Member
who introduced the present motion had been guilty of
exaggeration, for he spoke of the expenditure for the
relief of the poor being 8,000,0001.
Mr. COBDEN—I said that the money expended for
the relief of the poor, including Ireland, amounted to
8,300,000/. _ _ _

Mr. HERIIIES—But in making a comparison with
the year 1835, it should be borne in mind that there
was no Irish poor-law then. He was, however, glad to
find that the Hon. Member was sensible that there ex-
isted a great pressure from local taxation.—(Bear, hear.)
They had been told that the aspect of public affairs now
enabled great reductions to be made; but when the last
estimates were under discussion, the Noble Lord had
adverted to the circumstance that they were made up
prior to the convulsions which had disturbed Europe.
Such being the case, he was bound to say that the pre-
sent state of things, though he hoped that affairs might
take the most favourable turn, should induce the great
est caution before the strength of our forces was reduced.
—(Hear, hear.) They had been told in most emphatic
language, that in Ireland disaffection was not extin-
guished, and that there were reasons for fearing that the
present distress in some parts of that country might
possibly create disaffection beyond that which now ex-
isted. Such was the tenor of reports from the Poor-law
Commissioners. Therefore he repeated that they should
be careful how they diminished the public forces, who
might yet, unfortunately, have duties thrown on them in
addition to those which they at present had to perform,
and which the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home
Department had described as extremely onerous and
severe.—(Hear, hear.)
Ur. M. GIBSON thought it was not very consolatory

to the landed interest to find the financial -leader of the
agricultural party holding out such slender hopes of an,
material reduction in the expenditure of the country,
attempting to discourage those who had plans to offer—
(Rear, hear)—and throwing some censure upon the Go-
vernment for the efforts even they were making to reduce
that expenditure. Whatever was to be proposed in the
nature of relief to the landed interest must have its foun-
dation upon a reduction of expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
It was agreeable enough to give a popular vote fur the
repe :1 of this or that tax, but no man could give such a
vote honestly unless prepared so to follow it up as to
leave a surplus revenue to apply to that relief.—(Hear,
hear.) A Noble Duke had said, in another place,
that the malt-tax was doomed ; but no one was
justified in holding out any hope of relief to
the tenant-farmers unless prepared to reduce the ex-
penditure in order to put such advantages within
their reach. Did Hon. Gentlemen opposite mean to
repudiate?—(" Hear," and a laugh.) Were they pre-
pared to put in jeopardy the public faith?—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) had com-
plained of the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden), for holding
language of one kind in that House, and of another kind
in public meetings, being decorous in the House, and
violent and inflammatory at, Manchester; and it must be
owned that it was natural for a- speaker to sympathise
with his audience, and when addressing those who were
apathetic upon the question of reducing public burdens
he might feel a heavy weight—(A laugh)—while in ad-
dressing earnest and animated public meetings he
might be drawn into some degree of enthusiasm.—
(Laughter.) But it was surprising that the Right Hon.
Gentleman should accuse the Honourable Member of
what he termed democratic tendencies—using
the word as one of reproach (though there
was no reason why it should be so considered.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have laid down
as a principle, that the fewer out of a people had pro-
perty the more conservative was the tendency; or, in
other v..3rds, that the greater the number of paupers and
destitute persons in a state in proportion to its popula-
tion, the safer its institutions were.—(Oh, oh.) That
seemed to be the effect of his comment upon the state-
ment made respecting the division of property in France.
—(Oh, oh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
that he did not know why the subject of local burdens
was introduced; why, no part of those burdens could
be transferred to the State--there could be no aid from

the consolidated fund—except by reducing the expendi-
ture; and the greater the amount of local taxation in a
country the stronger the claim to have the general go-
vernment carried on at a low rate of expense. He (Mr.
Gibson) firmly believed that England, with the large por-
tion of the wants of society in it supplied by local taxation,
might be the cheapest governed country in Europe, as far
as the general expenses of Government went, and ad-
hi ring to our existing institutions.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to answer the
Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden), to dispute his facts, or to
show (the onus protandi being upon the Right lion.
Gentleman) that the augmentation of the expenditure by
10,000,0001. since 1835 was necessary; but ho had talked

or some discrepancy, and of t 3,000,000/. instead of
10,000,000/. But, the statement of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer amounted to this, that to make a re-
duction of 10.000,0001. would require a less diminution
in the armament. than the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden)
proposed ; and whereas the Hon. Member said, that a
great number of the augmentations of our warlike

establishments and expenditure hat! been caused by
special occasions which were passed away, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer not disputing that, supplied more
of these specialties, and said that, having crested_ ae
steam navy, the expenditure thereby caused wouol_.d
forb
brought to a close, and he spoke of . 2,3oo,cohoiitems,
stores, packet-service, and steam navy, sada seuharacter,
more or less of a temporary and
and not to be continued as a part of tshriPerP.
/ r. Gibson) was
penii; --ture of the country. In fact, lie.kai anent ex-
extremely sanguine that between
r it would be managed
and the Chancellor of the Exci,eque
his Friend (Mr. Cobden)
thut the expenditure, should
t were allowed be reduced something like
10,000,0001., if the Govern
time.—
(Laughter.) Why it had
There was a reduction of
been done before, between 1827,
or .thereabouts, and 1835.
with 1835; when the
10,000;000/. in a few Fears
ending
gtions brought about by
lowest plint public; but since
then,
the uneasinessw pressureblic being withdrawn,
_1 the profes-
aasndrea'' 'e
of the
the attention of the public
t to the executive tioverament,
way in additions to the establish-
sions had been dictating
aid having their
Cobden) had therefore
ioents. The lion. Member. (Mr.
only precedent and experience to back him, and was
in-
viting t, a campaign which was successful before. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to begin with, said that he
was going to make reductions now to the extent of
1,500,000/.; then there was 1,100,000/. for the Kafir war,
which he said would not occur again ; here were
2,500,000/. out of the 10,00030001 ; and he (Mr. Gibson)
did nut despair at all. He was very sanguine as to re
ducing our military establishments much further, espe-
cially when he saw how very much men of great autho-
rity and station and experience in public affairs differed
as to the amount of force necessary to be kept to secure
the safety of the kingdom, for the contrariety gave
Tealsbn to hope that there was no settled principle,' and
that it was merely a kind of haphazard-yielding-to the
Oriireasiona- that caused the—expenditure•to rise till the
-public complained. The Duke of Wellington- wrote a
celebrated letter calling fot very 'large additiourto our