The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-05 00:00:00

Mr. LEADER said he would withdraw his opposition
:o this Bill, upon the understanding that it would not in-
terfere with the town of Bridgewater.
The Bill wasN read a second time.
ORTHERN RAILWAY.
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND presented a petition
from the Hon. Edward Pater against the Northern Railway
Bill ; also a petition against the Birmingham and Glou-
cester Railway Bill.
Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition against the
Northern Railway Bill.
Colonel LYGON presented a petition from a place in
Worcestershire against the Gloucester and Birmingham
Railway Bill.
Mr. R. COLBURNE presented a petition against the
Midland Counties Railway Bill.
Mr. WIGNEY presented a petition from Brighton
against Mr. Stevenson's Brighton Railway Bill. He moved
that it and the petitions in favour of the line be referred to
the Committee.
Lord G. LENNOX said the petitions in favour of it
had already been referred to the Committee.
MANCHESTER IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from the
rate-payers and other inhabitants of Manchester against the
Manchester Improvement Bill.
On the motion of Mr. MARK PHILLIPS, the Man-
chester Improvement Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed.
LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY.
Sir H. VERNEY moved for leave to bring in a Bill, to
join this railway to the Greenwich railway.—[So we under-
stood ; but HOn. Members generally speak in so low a
tone of voice, and there is such a continued buz in the House
during the presentation of petitions, that it is very difficult
to catch the names of places.]
LONDON AND BLACKWALL RAILWAY.
Mr. CRAWFORD presented a petition against the
Bill from certain proprietors of alms-houses through whiey
the railroad was to pass.
Sir,G. STRICKLAND said, if questions were to be
raised continually upon the regulations of the Railway
Committee, the busines could not be got through.
NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY.
Mr. WARD moved the second reading of this Bill.
Sir A. LEITH HAY moved the second reading of the
North Leith Harbour and Dock Bill.
On the motion of Sir J. Y. BULLER, the Teignmoutli
Improvement Bill was read a second time.
Lord A. CONYNGHAM presented a petition from
the licensed victuallers of the city of Canterbury, com-
plaining of the extra duty on spirit licenses, and praying I;A-
-relief.
MANCHESTER IMPROVEMENT BILL.
On the motion of Mr. W. PATTEN, this Bill was :ea,
a second time, and ordered to be committed.
BLACKWALL RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. JOHNSON the Blackw

Railway Pal was read a second time, and ordered to
committed.

CROYDON RAILWAY.
Mr. \VILKS presented a petition from the Comm'
sioners of paving of the borough of Southwark against t

Croydon Railway Bill.
Mr. F. BRUEN rose, but "
'The SPEAKER interrupted him, and said he was SUIT
that the House must see the impropriety of continuing di,:-

cussions on the presentation of petitions.
BLACKWALL RAILWAY.
Mr. CLAY presented a petition from Ratcliffe Highway
praying the House not to pass the Blackwalll Commercia

Railway Bill.
HULL AND SELBY RAILWAY.
Mr. B. THOMPSON presented a petition from Hull
in favour of this Railway Bill.
EXETER AND BRISTOL RAILWAY.
An Hon. AinmßErt presented a petition from the pro-
prietors of the Great Western Canal against this Bill, and
prayii,g to be beard by Counsel against it.
YEOMANRY CORPS.
Colonel CONNOLLY presented a petition from a yeo-
manry corps in the county of Donegal, praying for reamer 1-
tion for their services. He thought it right to present the
petition, though he saw little probability of their wishes heir:;;
complied with.
The SPEAKER asked if the Hon. Member had received
the assent of the Crown inr presenting the petition ?
Colonel CONNOLLY replied in the negative, and the
petition wa=, by leave, withdrawn.
ATTORNIES TAX.
Dr. BOWRI NG presented a petition from Kilmarnocl.,
praying for relief from the attornies tax.
MEDICAL FEES.
Dr. BOWRING next presented a petition from medical
practitioners, praying for compensation for.their attendance

on Coroner; inquests.
DISSENTERS.
Mr. WILKS presented a petition from a Dissenting
congregation at Bramston, praying for an equalization of
civil rights.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Major HANDLEY presented a petition eomplainin-,,, of
;rieultural distress, and praying for relief.—Referred
to
e Committee.
MR. BUCKINGHAM'S CASE.

Several petitions were presented in favour of Mr. Buck-

ingham's claims.
Mr. GORE LANGTON presented a petition from
400 inhabitants of Suffolk, complaining of inconvenience in
the exercise of their elective franchise. The Hon. Mem-
ber, after a few observations, concluded by giving the peti-
tion his cordial support.
PROSECUTION OF TENANTRY IN CARLOW.
Mr. WALLACE rose to present three, petitions from
the county of Carlow, and in doing so he begged to observe
that he should renew his motion for enquiry into the cir-
cumstances connected with the last two Carlow elections.
The petitions were most respectably signed, and in proof
of the anxiety of the person with whom be com-
municated on the subject not to deceive him, some
small matters contained in the petition could not be vouched
for, and he (Mr. W.) refused to present the petitions unless
they knew the facts of their own knowledge to be true.
The first petition which it would lie his duty to present
was from a person named Murphy, resident in the County
Carlow. The petitioner stated that he had lived for some
time in the service. of the Hon. and Gallant Member
as a " rent-man." He specifies that he has been
deprived of 101. a•year, because he was never able to obtain
from the Hon. and Gallant Colonel a rent discharge. The
petitioner further states that the treatment he has received,
has been of serious injury to himself and family, and unless
the legislature interferes to protect him and others of the
unfortunate Catholic tenantry of that county, similarly cir-
cumstanced, the most lamentable consequences must
be the result. The petitioner further stated that
the unfortunate Catholic tenantry were ejected because
they refused to vote against the dictates of their conscience.
The next petition was from a person similarly situated as
Murphy. The petitioner states that he signified his inten-
tion of supporting the Reform candidates at one of the
county Carlow elections, that he was in consequence de-
prived by his landlord of his right of turbany, which
was subsequently offered to be restored to him,
if he consented to vote for the Conservative
candidate at the next election ; that when the day of elec-
tion arrived, he was brought into the town of Carlow, along
with others of the tenantry, and there locked up against his
will in a room, from which he afterwards escape. The
petitioner went to his home, from which he was again
forcibly brought back, and conducted to the same place,
under an escort of police ; that he aftewards when brought to
the hustings, voted against the Hon. and Gallant Colonel,
and in consequence brought ruin on himself and family—his
tnrbany was again taken from him, and he was ultimately
deprived of the land which himself and family had held for
, the last forty years. Next came a most extraordinary pe-
tition, perhaps the most extraordinary one that ever was pre-
sented to that House : it was signed by 19 out of 22 tenants
on the estate of a Mr. Alexander, in the County of
Carlow.—(Hear.) In 1831 he induced the petitioners to
register their votes—he at that time agreeing with them in
politics, and supporting the Reform interest. In 1835,
Mr. Alexander changed his politics, and insisted on his
tenants doing the same, and supporting the Conservative can-
didate in the person of the Hon. and Gallant Col. opposite ;
that he had endeavoured by every means in his power—by
the most expensive system of litigation and lawsuits, to in-
timidate and annoy the petitioners, whom he had thereby
almost entirely ruined—that finding that the officers of
justice would not consent to serve latitats, subpoenas, and
other law processes he had resorted to the extraordinary
step of becoming bailiff to his own farm. They further
stated that there was a public combination among the
landlords of Carlow,swho had sworn an oath to remove from
their estates and properties those persons who- did not
vote for their being rectors. The petitioners, who were
19 of twenty-two of Mr. Alexander's tenants, stated
that by these proceedings they had been almost ruined—
having been called upon not only to • pay what was called
the hanging gale, but also the rent which was then due ; so
that altogether, in the space of nine months, they had paid
three half year's rent—a thing which Hon. Members mug
be aware was quite unusual and unprecedented in Ireland.
The House would understand that until these systems of
coercion took place by means of calling up the rents un-
paid, this landlord and his tenantry lived upon the
very best terms, and it had been made quite plain to him
by the whole of these petitions, that this individual had
gone to lengths quite unusual—(Hear, hear)—and quite
unconstitutional (Cheers)— and which merited the
reprehension of the House and country at large.—
(Hear, and cheers.) The petitioners stated further that
means had been taken to establish an office of police
immediately near to the residence of this gentleman,
which they declared was not required, for in that district
there had been no rioting or tumultuous meetings, or any

thing requiring the interference of the police ; and the
petitioners believed that these additional police had been
placed there for the purpose of supporting the persecu-
tions that were going on, which they considered had been
adopted for the extermination of the Catholic voters of
the county of Carlow.—(Cheers, and cries of " No, no.")
These facts were necessary to be brought before the
House and the country, and he trusted that in this
case the House would establish the precedent once
adopted, and have these petitions printed, with the votes
He should therefore ' propose bringing up these petitions
that that course should be adopted, and they should
be printed along with the votes : this motion would be
for a general and searching inquiry, not leaving out any
party or sect.—(Cheers.) He wished to prejudice no party,
he wished ample justice done to all ; but if parties had
presumed to bring before the House statements not justi-
fied, the consequences of those statements must fall upon
themselves. With these remarks he would conclude
hoping that some legislative measures would be adopted
to prevent a recurrence of the transactions that had taken
place in the county of Carlow. The Hon. Member then
brought up the petition.
Colonel BRUEN begged leave in the first place to
return his most unfeigned thanks to the Hon. Member op-
posite, for bringing this matter before the House ; for his only
wish and the wish of every one in Carlow was that an enquiry
should be made into the conduct of all classes and 'all sects
in the county of Carlow—that was their only wish.
They had been labouring for years, at an enormous ex-
pense to their tenants ; lout they had been left to suffer.
ing evils, which he would venture to assert had never be-
fore been endured in any civilised country. He would en-
deavour to reply, in the first place, to the allegations contained
in those petitions, and would begin with that of William
Murphy. He could not make a better statement upon
this, than that which was made in a letter to him (Colonel
Bruen), and which he gave to the Chairman of the
Committee that was appointed to inquire into bribery
and intimidation at elections.—(Hear.) That letter was
read before the Committee, and it had been read repeatedly
in public—it was a denial of every one of these statements
that had been made respecting him. (The Gallant Colonel
here read the letter referred to from the minutes of evidence
taken before the Bribery and Intimidation Committee. It
was also the wish of the Committee, that he should like-
wise.send for his books, and although he was not bound to
produce one of them—(Hear)—or any account whatever
of the way in which lie managed his private affairs—( Hear)—
yet all books, letters, and accounts relating to the matter
were forwarded to him by his agents, and he had offered to
lay them before the Committee ; but the Hon. Chairman
of that Committee (Mr. Ord), whom he did not then ob-
serve in his place, said it was not necessary.—(Hear.)
With respect to this man Murphy, with a rent of only IL/.
a-year, he had allowed an arrear of 801. odd to accumulate.
—(Hear, hear.) But he was like all the others ;he paid
what he pleased, and when he pleased.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
(Colonel Bruen) did certainly ask for the rent, and served
this man with an ejectment, and he was sure the Hous,i
would agree with him that it was almost time for him to
think of it.—(Hear, hear.) This man was, not-
withstanding all this, still in possession of his ground.
With respect to the charge of preventing his tenants from
cutting turf, he could say that it was as unfounded as
' the others. Originally there had been a turf bog on
the
estate, but it had not been cut for many years.
This man had cut some meadow-land for turf, but lie
(Col. Bruen) had directed that a stop should be put to suci
a proceeding, and he would remember to put a stop to it
when he went back.—(Hear.) There was another matter
mentior.ed in the petition to which he must refer, viz.—the
charge that he had directed a house belonging to one of
his tenants to be pulled down. This same complaint
had been made at the last election, and yet a gentleman
declared to him yesterday that he saw the house standing
subsequently to that period.—( Hear, hear.) He had re-
ceived several letters and affidavits from the County
of Carlow, denying the statements made in the petition
presented to that Howe by Mr. Vigors ; but he thought it
was not necessary to trouble the House with them.
There was one letter, however, to which he begged leave to
direct the attention of the House. It came from a gentle-
man named Dwyer, who was unknown to him (Cal. Bruen.)
That gentleman states in his letter that a receiver Lail
been appointed by the Court of Chancery on the
lands (a Mr. Morris), and that he was necessarily
obliged to take proceedings against such tenants as
were unable or unwilling to pay their rents, but that
he (Colonel B.) had nothing to do with that.—(llear,
hear.) With respect to the allegations in the i.e.
tition affecting Mr. Alexander, he would state, that
happening to know that gentleman, he was not disposed
to enquire into the manner in which he collected his
rents, or the tithes for which he was accountable from his te-
nants ; but this he would say, there was not a man to whom
the community was more indebted, in the county of Carlow.
He came to Carlow forty years ago—he found that part
of the country in which he at present resided a waste an:l
barren spot—and he showed him (Colonet, B.), within a
few weeks, the great improvements which he had made ;
so much so, that instead of being a barren waste, without
a briar or a bush, it now presented one of the most im-
proved and civilized appearances in any country.—(Hear,
hear.) The most cultivated part of England, he would
venture to say was not superior. Neat cottages were built
for his labourers, and the country enjoyed the blessings of
a paternal landlord, until Father Keogh turned poli-
tician.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Alexander was accused
of changing his politics, and becoming a Conservative ; but
he (Col. Bruen) would state that he was now of the same
opinions he always entertained, while lie objected to ben;
bought and sold, and he had the manliness to avow it.
In the petition presented the other night, it was stated
that Mr. Alexander, as secretary to the Tory Club, hivi
determined, like all the Tory landlords in Ireland, to ex-
terminate the Roman Catholics.—(Hear.) Now, there
was absurdity in the very face of this allegation, and so far
was it contradicted by Mr. Alexander, that within a few
weeks he had finished the building of an excellent house for
a Roman Catholic, in which he might be protected from the
liberators of Ireland—(Cheers from the Opposition)—who
felt indignant at his having voted as his judgment directed.
The petition also stated that Mr. Alexander had dis-
charged persons in his employment through political motives.
The House would be surprised that this gentleman should
not take every precaution, as he was a large dealer in malt,
and he would be obliged to have only those persons upon
whom he could place the utmost reliance. The fact was that
several times servants in his employment received notice
from the opponents of all order to quit working for Mr.
Alexander, and as he would be subject to considerable loss if
His malt remained without undergoing the necessary process,
he felt it incumbent upon him to protect his own property,
by having proper servants in his employment. With
regard to a charge respecting a police station which lie
procured to be established, it would be only necessary
to state that he lived upon the banks of the Barrow, and
caused it to be established to protect him from the assaults
of the nightly marauders who infest the county of Carlow.
—(Hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Colonel proceeded to
read a letter from Mr. Butler, the agent of Lieutenant-
Colonel Latouche, in which it was stated that the writer's
father had been agent on the property for 33 years,
and he himself for 28, and during that period
not a single ejectment was had recourse to on the estate.
He (Mr. Butler) stated that the land had been let for the
low price of two shillings and sixpence an acre, and had
been shortly before out of lease ; that upon it there were
thirteen families, idle, demoralized, and disturbed creatures,
few of whom could write, and all who could were requisi-
tionists for every illegal purpose that could be imagined ;
that for fifteen monts they held the land free of any
charge,and that such as were put out of their holdings received
a sum of money each. There was but one widow on the land,
and that fact would answer the cry about widows and orphans.
The priests and agitators had assailed the landlords in
them as
every shape. The former were in the habit of issuing,
every Sunday, from their chapels at the head of large mobs,
"1
n'a n
d their from
take tshi
etehk
threatening destruction, and denouncing their vengeance
against those who were the natural protectors of the people.
bc—(Loud:l.ll.eyhetshoe
them
rTiferhsoemy o fdt
rhae4g‘ir
Ot
hhheo, r nu s oehfsr,oIbeds, they
pri-
soners to their own houses.—(Cries of " Oh, oh 1") He
did not state a fact that he would not undertake
to prove.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Of many of
these cases he had been an eye witness himself.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) They, he would again repeat, dragged
them from their sick beds, carried them prisoners to
their homes, forced them to the hustings, and obljged them
to vote against their wishes and interest. he poor
creatures said, with tears in their eyes, " How can we help
it?"--(Cheers.) If persons were so hardened as to rots
differently they were denounced at the altar as Orange-
men ; their farming instruments were destroyed ; their
cattle were maimed, their very wives forbidden to come
to them—(Loud cheers)—they could not go on the
King's highway with safety ; their dogs and cattle were
poisoned, and their servants were set as spies over them.
If, after this, the Irish landlords had been induced to
pay their enemies in their own coin, and according to their
own measure, he would not say that it would be wise to
have done so, but he thought it must be admitted
that they had received great provocation.--(Cheers.)
But if the Irish landlords had done so, he had no hesitation
in saying many of those persons would have been in a very
different part of his Majesty's dominions.—(Loud cheers.)
But the Irish landlords hoped for better days, and that they
would meet with a due reward for their forbearance. Such was
the liberty that was enjoyed in Ireland, and for the preservation
of which certain clamours were rung in their ears. No
such thing was known as liberty in Ireland unless
it was to murder.—(Cheers from the opposition, and
cries of " Oh, oh ! " from the Ministerial side of the House.)
Yet the Irish landlords were accused of tyranny and perse-
cution !—(Cheers.) The question was not whether a free-

holder should vote as he chose, but whether the priests were
to hold dominion over the whole people of Ireland. The
Patriot in Ireland, and the Liberal in England, had each
turned a deaf ear to the voice of the charmer.—(Laughter.)
This was not the first, second, nor third time that the
landlords of Carlow had been accused of every thing that
was bad and atrocious, and now they were at last to be
knocked down, as it were, by the hammer of Mr.
George Robins.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.")
In conclusion he would mention an instance, for the facts
of which he could vouch. He had bad a tenant, a most
respectable and independent man, who, besides having se-
veral farms, had, to his certain knowledge 2,0001.
in money ; this .man had been his suporter in several
elections, until the year 1831, when he was con-
stantly threatened by some of the opposite party
which threats had so preyed upon the mind of
the wife as to bring on a premature labour ; the man had died
since, and his (Colonel B.'s) firm opinion was, his death
was principally if not mainly caused by those circumstances.
He trusted that he had, to the satisfaction of every right
mind, entirely refuted the- calumnious charges that had
been made on the petitions which had been presented.
After some few words from Col. Perceval, Messrs. Hope,
Hardy, and Lord J. Russell,
Mr. HARDY proposed that the petition be printed
' with the votes.
Mr. WALLACE had. no hesitation in agreeing that
that was the most gentlemanly conduct which was the most
manly—(Hear, hear)—and he, therefore, should offer no
- opposition to the request that had been on the other side
• of the House.
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to call the attention of the House
to a subject which was of great importance to himself.
He was not in the habit of addressing the House upon
personal calumny, nor would he do so upon the present
occasion, if it were not a matter connected with
very peculiar circumstances. The House would
be aware that some time since a Bill had
been brought in for compensation to Mr. Buckingham,
apon which occasion he had thought it his duty very
shortly to state the grounds on which he gave his
vote, and he had voted against the Bill, which was
lost. He now held in his hand a paper called
the Sheffield Iris, in which certain accusations were
brought against him as a Member of the House, and
which he considered as an infraction of the privileges
of the House ; and it was those privileges he
wished to defend upon the present occasion. When the
public papers abused him in vague and general terms, if
it gave them pleasure, they were welcome for him to do so.
As long as the Press kept that line, he had no objection
to it ; but the moment they brought a definite charge of
criminal conduct against him, as the Sheffield Iris had done,
he felt it his duty to bring the subject before the House. He
felt no pain at the charge ; but it was a most grave one. The
article was headed, " Mr. Buckingham's Claims," and called
him a perverse wrong-hearted, if not bribed, Radical. They
also stated that as he passed from the house they heard the
chink of the retaining fee—(Laughter)—and stated him to
be rich in Tory estimation, and in the gold of the East
India Company. The Newspaper which he received
by the post, did not contain the paragraph of which he
complained ; but another, given him by a friend as a guard,
did contain it. The reason he brought this subject for-
ward, was to give the Hon. Member for Sheffield an
opportunity of denying his knowledge on the subject. He
would only state further, that he had directed his
Attorney to demand an apology from the Editor of
the " Sheffield Iris"—that an apology be put over the
leader, in order that it might be the more humiliating.
Mr. BUCKINGHAM said he had no difficulty
in stating that he never saw the paragraph complained
of; until it reached him by post in the paper itself. It
was not for him to doubt its sincerity, or to offer any opinion
upon it---as the time would come for doing this more effi-
ciently—when it should be the subject of any future pro-
ceedings.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the House, at its ris-
ing, do adjourn till Monday.
DIVISIONS OF TIME HOUSE.
While the House was preparing to enter on the subject of
Supply,
Mr. B. HOY thought that the plan of taking divisions it
two lobbies had completely failed, and adduced many compa.
naive instances of the time occupied under both old and new
systems in proof of his assertion, that the former was the
better. The time lost after divisions on the present plan, be-
fore order could be restored in the House, was another serious
evil. Ile had made a calculation of the amount of time which
would thus continualiy be consumed, and thought he was mo-
derate in stating it at three hours a day ; and, allowing only
eight hours a day as the average space devoted to public busi-
ness for the four days in the week, the consumption of time
would be alarming. It would come to fully three weeks in an
ordinary session. As he thought the present mode of taking
divisions by two lobbies had received a fair trial and failed, he
would now move that it be discontinued. (The Hon. Gen-
tleman was heard throughout with great impatience.)
Mr. G. H. WARD thought the motion quite uncalled for.
It would be very absurd to rescind the resolution that they had
passed only a fortnight ago, without allowing sufficient time to
appreciate the effects. It had not had a fair trial yet. On
the first occasion, 75 ayes and 281 noes were counted in three-
quarters of an hour, which he thought not long for a first ex-
periment. He was, however, ready to adopt any improve-
ments which the Hon Gentleman or his Friends could sug-
gest.—( Loud cries of "Divide.")
Mr. WARBURTON was opposed to any return to the de-
fective old system. They had gone on progressively improv-
ing under the new system from taking eight votes in a minute
on the first and second occasion ; on a following one they took
sixteen ; on the seventh division, seventeen ; and ors the last
occasion, eighteen votes in a minute.—( Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL was not surprised either at the length
of time or at the inaccuracies consequent on the new plan. It
was certainly better than the old one, and had been getting on
progressively.
Mr. B. HOY would postpone his motion for three weeks
longer.—(Cries of Divide.") For his part he desired ?he
greatest publicity to be given to votes, and was on that account
always opposed to the ballot.—( Divide. )
Mr. WARD thought the House ought now to set this
question at rest by coming to a decision.—(Loud cries of
" Divide.")
Mr. B. HOY—The Hon. Member says that the plan has
not yet had a fair trial, and yet he calls on the House to de-
cide at once.—( Hear, laughter, and divide.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a few
words in opposition to the abandonment of the present sys-
tem, which were heard very imperfectly in our end of the
Gallery.
Sir R. PEEL said—lt appears to me, Sir, that there is
great inconsistency on the part of the opponents of the Hon.
Member, in not allowing him to withdraw his motion for the
present. The Noble Lord opposite declares he is not altoge-
ther satisfied with the working of the present system, and con-
templates the possibility of a return to the old plan. I must
confess that it is my own impression also ; but in fairness we
ought to give it a longer trial.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was a very inconvenient prac-
tice to bring on motions like the present, when the vote of
supply was before the House, and then to withdraw them again
without taking the sense of the House.
Sir R. PEEL—The Noble Lord objects to the Hon. Gen-
tleman's withdrawing his motion, in order that we may gain
something from experience ; but if we are to have a division,
all I can say is, that my experience will induce me to vote for
the Hon. Gentleman's motion.—(Hear, hear.)
The Gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place,
the motion having, as we understood, been allowed to be with-
drawn.
On the re-admission of strangers, we found
Mr. BROTH WICK opposing the motion for the Speaker
leaving the chair, in order that the House might resolve itself
into a Committee of Supply. It was not, the Hon. Member
said, his wish to impede the business before the House, but he
at the same time must persist in bringing forward the motion
relative to the Mauritius, of which he had given notice, unless
the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir G. Grey) fixed some day
when it should come on.
Sir G. GREY had himself postponed a motion of which he
had given notice, in relation to the Mauritius, until Tuesday ;
and all he could say was, that if the Hon. Member would
consent to defer his motion until that day everything the Go-
vernment eouldsdo to facilitate his bringing it forward then
should be done ; but beyond this he could give the Hon. Mem-
ber no pledge.
Mr. BORTHWICK would at once adopt the suggestion
of the Hon. Baronet, and postpone his motion until Tuesday.
SUPPLY.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House resolved
itself into a Committee of Supply.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. C. WOOD then rose to lay before the House the par-
ticulars of the estimates which he meant to propose for this
branch of the public service for the ensuing year. The total
expenditure of the ensuing year over the past would be
287,820/. This was on the gross amount of the estimates of
the two years as contrasted with each other ; but if they were
to confine themselves to the effective service, although there
was a difference in the votes for the last year and the present
of 305,3011., the real amount of the total expenditure for the
ensuing year over the sum voted for the service of the last
would not exceed 256,0001. This, however, arose from the cir-
cumstance of the sum taken last year being for a period of one
year and a quarter, and not for a single year. The first item,
No. 1, which related to the wages of seamen and marines
belonging to the Ordinary-yard craft, exhibited an increase
over the vote of the last year, as did also the next item, No. 2.
But then it should be recollected that this increase arose
principally from the augmentation intended to take place in
the force of the navy for the ensuing year. As he should
state the extent of that increase, before he sat down he thought
it right to mention that the increase in the items to which he
referred would be 220,0001. The actual increase, however,
would only be 204,0001. ; but the difference arose principally
from the transfer of the half-pay list. In the Ordinary Depart-
omf e2n2t
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effected in the Navy Pay Office. The next item on which a
diffA-ence arose was No. 10. This item related to the charges
for naval stores, and the building, repair, and outfit of the fleet ;
and it was increased by a sum of 47,0001., not so much because
such an increase was deemed essential, but because it was
considered that the sum voted last year was unprecedentedly

small. Although this item had been increased 47,0001., still,
as it was less by 30,0001. than any former vote, except the
last, he thought the Right Hon. Baronet opposite would not
pretend to say that the increase was extravagant. An in-
crease had likewise taken place in the miscellaneous estimates,
but still it would be found that on a comparison of several
small sums in these estimates with similar charges in the esti-
mates of last year a saving of 3,0001. had been effected. The
increase was occasioned by the machinery necessary for car-
rying the Bill for the Registration of Seamen into effect, and
a variety of other circumstances, among which was the expe-
dition fitted out to go in search of the whale vessels which
were locked up by the ice in the North Seas. In conse-
quence, however, of information received respecting these
ships, it would not be necessary for the expedition to proceed
any further, and therefore so large a vote as that proposed
would not be wanted.—(Hear, hear.) A saving of 5,000/.
had been effected in the half-pay establishment; but there
was at the same time an increase in the sum proposed to be
voted in the present estimates for the half-pay of pursers in
the navy of 7,000/. There was, however, to be a prospec-
tive reduction of masters, surgeons, and commissioned officers,
with a view to diminish the amount of half-pay at present paid,
and these, he believed, were the only items in which the pre-
sent estimates differed from those of the last year. It was

true that they had been only able to effect small reductions ;
but this was owing to the extraordinary circumstances which
had arisen in the course of the year. It would be ob-

served that to these estimates explanatory statements were
annexed, and that no information was withheld which
could, with propriety, be given, or which could at all tend
to throw light upon them. The first statement contained the
details of the whole service, including officers and ships, as it
stodd on the Ist of January of the present year. A prospec-
tive statement had been called for, but that Hon. Gentlemen

must be aware it would be impossible to give. They had
thought it advisable to give a statement of the actual condition
of the navy down to to the last day of the quarter, and that he
thought would be no bad criterion for the ensuing year. The
statement specified the different services in which the several
ships employed were engaged, and it would be seen that they
had kept as near the number voted as possible. The next ex-
pence related to that which was called the ordinary department
of the service, and he should now state the plan which the
Government contemplated pursuing on this head. The com-
mittee must be aware that when vessels were hid up in or-

- •
dinary, there were a certain number of officers and men em-
ployed in taking- care of them ; but although receiving the pay
of seamen, many of these persons were wholly ignorant of the
service. Finding on inquiry that this was the case, a survey
was ordered to be made, and the result was that 200 warrant

officers were found wholly incompetent to their duties, owing
either to age, disease, or unfitness. It was intended that the
whole of these persons should be superannuated on pensions,
and that the ships now in ordinary should be put in commis-
sion. By this a great advantage would be gained. The
first captains, being placed on full pay, would be en-
titled to sit on court-martials, and assist in surveys, so that it
would no longer be necessary to send a ship from one port to
another for the purpose of holding a Court-Martial, as was
the case at present. With regard to warrant officers, it was
proposed that those who were competent should be retained,
and those who were superannuated replaced. The effect of
this would be that able seamen would be no longer reluctant to
to enter on board those ships when they were required for ser-
vice, and that ships could be manned efficiently and much
more speedily than at present. The way in which this was in-
tended to work was this ; it was proposed three large ships,
three-deckers, should be forthwith put in commission and
equipped for active service in all respects except as to the
number of men, which were to be kept below the full comple-
ment. As they would always have a sufficient number of able
seamen liable to serve, to make up the full complement of
those ships, they could, if necessary, put to sea within a few
hours after an order from the Admiralty had reached them
for the purpose, and this he considered an advantage of the
utmost importance, as it would obviate the difficulty which had
always been experienced in getting men when there was a
pressing emergency for them. They could at any time trans-
fer 100 men from one ship to another, and this, too, without
putting the country to any additional expense. They
would substitute for the superannuated parties 288 qua-
lified men, end this, with the 342 allowed to remain,
would constitute an efficient and well educated force
of 630 men, always at their disposal. By this means
considerable additional saving would be effected to the
public. The third statement related to the Royal Marines of
all classes on shore. In the item No. 10 there would be a
considerable alteration ; but as it was not deemed advisable, in
refrence to the public service, to give any explanations of these
estimates, he hoped, as the Government were responsible fur
their conduct, the (louse would grant to them in this instance
that confidence which had been placed in them in others. The
next items to which he wished to refer was contained in No. 11,
and here a sum of 43,8281. would be found, which was voted
last year in No. 10, under the head of " Naval Stores." The
only other head under which alteration had been made would
be found in No. 14, in which details respecting the half-pay of
officers of the Navy and Royal Marines were given at great
length. He had already stated the increase in point of expense,
and he would now say what it was they proposed with regard
to men. They meant to ask for a vote of 5,000 men more than
were granted last year. The Committee would remember
what was said when a diminution in the number of men was
proposed last year. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had
not only acquiesced in the vote then proposed, but he ventured
to express the doubts which he entertained as to the prudence
of reduction at such a period. His doubts, as events had since
proved, were all well-founded.—(Cries of " Hear' hear.") He
Mr. Wood) begged the House to look at the force in one
branch of the naval service. In the packet stations there
were 1,300 men, besides no less than six vessels, four of
which—four-gun brigs—were employed at Falmouth, and two
in the West Indies, for the purpose of conveying the mails.
The complement of these vessels exceeded 200 men, so that
there were 1,600 men in that one service alone. The present
force was not sufficient, for the purpose for which it was re-
quired—( Hear, hear)—and it was on these grounds, and be-
cause additional force was called for in all foreign stations to
protect our commerce,:that a larger number of men was now
asked for than had been granted last year. In the Pacific,
where the English trade was rapidly increasing, a demand had
been made by the Admiral and Commodore stationed in that
quarter for additional force, and the merchants of Liverpool
had made urgent applications for having vessels of war sta-
tioned along the western coast of Mexico, where, also, Bri-
tish commerce was likely greatly to extend itself, if proper
protection were afforded to it. Similar applications had been
made by those who traded in Peru, where it was known that
revolution prevailed, and that there was no Government able
to enforce its own decrees. The merchants trading to Brazil
made similar representations. Two British merchant vessels had
been plundered on that station. Further protection was solici-
ted also from the West Indies for the purpose of completely
putting down the slave trade, where it was said to be carried on to
some extent. The British merchants required an increased force
on the Newfoundland station. Similar applications were received
from the East Indies and from New South Wales. The Afri-
can station, as well as those he had mentioned, was repre.
sented by Admiral Cockburn as requiring an increase of naval
force, as the slave trade was carried on upon that coast to a
great extent. It was utterly impossible, in their present situa-
tion, to answer all these calls. An increase of force was not
more necessary on distant stations than on those nearer home.
It was necessary to keep diligent watch along the whole coast
of Spain. He believed the Member for Sandwich himself
(Mr. G. Price) would be ready to join in an expression of re-
gret that the British force upon that station was not greater
than it now was. In addition to these demands, made by their
own commerce, there were other causes which rendered some
increase desirable. The greatest advantage was to be derived
from having an opportunity of seeing ships go through the
various evolutions of a fleet. This, he had no doubt,
would be admitted by the Hon. Member for Devenport ;
but for this very useful purpose they bad not at present a
sufficient number of ships properly manned. There would
be twelve at sea next June. Compare this with the
situation of Russia. She had, at present, in the Baltic
and the Black Sea, not less than twenty-three line of
battle ships, and eighteen frigates. At present in the Baltic
this country had only 10,000 seamen employed, and in the
Channel not more than two frigates, with 1,000 men, their
line-of-battle ships on the various stations not exceeding ten.
He did not mention these circumstances with any reference to
the present political state of Europe ; but, considering the ex-
tent of their commerce, and the great demand in so many parts
of the world for the protection of British commerce, he would
appeal to the House whether this state of things ought to con-
tinue ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was not of shipping they
stood in need, but of men. It was for these reasons he now
proposed an additional vote of 5,000 men, and he might fairly
say that circumstances would justify him even in doubling that
number, and making it 10,000. He would conclude by pro-
posing that 33,700 men be the complement of the service, in-
cluding 9,000 marines and 3,000 boys.
The question being put from the chair,
Mr. G. PRICE complained that the dreadful massacre
which took place at Barcelona was not prevented, though
Captain Parker, at the time, was in command of a British
naval force off the harbour, and was not wanting either in men
or officers. Even Don Carlos himself had been received on
board a British line-of-battle ship, and there protected.
Mr. WOOD said that Captain Parker offered to land a
body of men to assist the Government, if required. The offer
was not accepted.
Mr. G. PRICE felt most happy in receiving this assurance
from the Hon. Member.
An Hon. MEMBER was glad to hear that the embarrassments
under which commerce had been labouring for a considerable
time were to be guarded against in future. For want of ade-
qnate protection, a great deal of British property had been
sacrificed both at Valparaiso and St. Jago.
Sir E. CODRINGTON said, with respect to the increase
of force now proposed, he should wish to see it doubled. He
believed that when the rebellion broke out in the Brazils, not
less than eight millions of British property was lost from want
of adequate naval protection.
In answer to an observation from an Hon. Member,
Lord PALMERSTON said that at the time the massacre
took place Captain Parker was carrying the provisions of the
Quadruple Alliance into effect. He was informed there was
some likelihood that it was meant to inflict serious injury upon
the prisoners ; and he sent to the Deputy-Governor, General
Mina being absent, to inform him that, if required, he e ould
land his own men to protect them. The Governor, in
answer, said there was no occasion ; that all would pass off
quietly. These violent proceedings occurred too suddenly
to prevent them.
Mr. YOUNG said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wood) in
his statement made no allusion to the naval efforts now making
by France. He had frequently alluded in that House to the
encroachments she was making on the coast of Africa. In a
late instance these encroachments would have been repelled by
force, if they were in sufficient strength on that coast. It was
fit the House should know the outrages committed there, and