The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-04 00:00:00

•and the other top
House,
failed in their attempts to remove
it, that la a for one, r.pproached that discussion premed
to make sae:ifices— ne did not mean sacrifices of as
sumed cc insis tency, lint even sacrifices of a more pain-
ful natur w.eant the sacrifice of strict justice to
others, 11,r the purpose of attaining what was the lirst
duty of P'arliement and the Government—the prosperity and
tranoesille ty of Ireland, as connected with its institutions.—
(Ch The quo stion resolved itself simply into this,
wheal), .r on the whr le, after the experience of the last five
years, 'le measure which they were now called on to adopt,
for *lee purpose, he -would not say of extinguishing (though in
all probability calculated to do so), but certainly of diminish-
inr, the evil which was complained of, was not good to that
catent ; and whether, being good to that extent, it was at-
tended wit 'a are, consequence of another description of magni-
tude sufficient /o induce their Lordships to abstain from apply-
ing the re, reel y now proposed. He would not follow the Noble
Earl (th e Earl of Wicklow) into all the topics of
party irri';etion which he had introduced into this debate. Al-
though cbat Noble Earl might, like another Tacitus, retire
from p eblic life, in order to record these iniquitous, unprin-
cipled, and truculent times, they (the Government) should he
prepa. ed to bear his censure withunruffied minds, if they ware
satisf ed that the moment now presented itself when a Bill
Toie it he brought forward with the cordial concurrence of
Par tiament, and to a certain extent of all parties, which would
eff set great good, compatibly with every principle entertained
bvitheir own or any other party in that or the other House of
Perlismena—(Cheers.) That moment he believed had now
arrired. The Noble Marquis then went on to show that the
plan on which the present Bill was founded did not clash with
any of those schemes which' were propounded in Parliament
lor several years past for the settlement of the Irish Church
.question. This was a measure of sacrifice on all hands, and
from all the parties concerned, It was a sacrifice on the part
of the clergy, of the landlords, and of Parliament, and all for
the attainment of the one common object in which F.ll were
equally interested—the reeeservation of the peace and tram-
quiility of the country. Although be concurred in all
the sacrifices that had been made—although he concurred
in tl.e course w'aich the House of Commons had pursued
in passing 2 vote by which the arrears of tithes in Ire-
land would be extineuished for ever, undoubtedly he could
not have concurred in the expediency of that vote, if
be cou'el in any degree have looked at it as his Noble and
Learr,ed Friend ( Lord Brougham) below him regarded it,
namely, as an additional endowmentto the Established Church
in Ireland. It was not an additional endowment to the
church ; it was simply a compensation to the Church—an
equivalent for past claims, which it was for the benefit of the
country should be extinguished.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble
and Learned Friend ( Lord Brougham) had expressed an opi-
nion in which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) concurred, that
it would be highly advantageous that the state should provide
for the support of the Ronean Catholic clergy. He believed,
in common with his Neble and Learned Friend, that such a
change of policy woeld be attended with very beneficial conse-
quences. Under all the circumstances, he confidently ex-
pected that this Bill would meet with the cordial and general
support of the House.
After a fe:vv words from Lord BROUGHAM in the way of
exPlanP!,;.on,
Viscount MELBOURNE rose to reply. With respect to
the non-appearance of the appropriation clause in the present
Bill, be could only say that by proposing the Bill without it
lie had abandoned no principle he had ever held upon the
subject—had renounced no opinion he had ever expressed
upon it; but he thought himseif justified in acting with
prudence as to the time of br',neing forward such a propo-
sition—as to the time at edaich he would advance and sup-
port such a measure. knd in that respect he had it in his
power to appeal to p, very high authority—he appealed to
what the Noble Wee (Duke of Wellington) said on that oc-
casion of the leel, debate on the Bill for the establishment of
Municipal Re'form in Ireland. The Noble Duke said, "I do
not think tb'at these Corporations have worked well in England ;
therefore , for my own part, I should not be disposed to extend
them fes Ireland. But there is such a strong opinion ex-
prese ed upon the subject in another place, by persons whose
opiedons I respect, that I ant prepared to yield my own
eipinion, and to agree to a measure, with respect to which,
however, I still entertain the doubts which I formerly ex-
pressed." That was the language of a man of common sense—
that was the language of a statesman.—( Hear !) That was the
language, that the principle upon which those who conducted
public all'airs must often act.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Viscount
Melhoerne) did not think it prudent to press the appropria-
tion clause at the present moment, but he had not given up
any of the principles upon which that clause was founded.
—( Hear, hear.) On the contrary, he still thought that if it
could have been admitted with any general concurrence of
feeling, it would have tended materially not to weaken or
endanger, but to strengthen and secure the Established Church
in Ireland. The Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Brougham)
bad spoken of the Church of England in Ireland, he would
not say in violent and abusive terms, but certainly in very
strong and very vehement language. He said that the
Church of England in Ireland was an anomaly unparalleled
in the history of the world. Now it appeared to him (Lord
Melbourne) that it was impossible for England to have done
otherwise than establish the Protestant religion in Ireland.
There was now a great attack made upon the Church Es-
tablishment in Ireland; that was to say a noisy attack, he
did not think it a very formidable one, nor one in which the
supporters of it were very sincere ; but an attack was now
made upon the Church, and this rendered it necesssary that
the Government and Parliament should direct their attention
to the subject. One of the arguments employed in the dis-
cussions which had arisen upon this topic was, that the vo-
luntary system might do very well for towns and for the
rich and wealthy, but that it would not do for
the poor who constituted the great bulk and body of the
people. He did not mean to say that that was the only
argument for a Church Establishment ; but it was one
which was very frequently put forward, and one which ap-
plied well enough to the Church of England. In Ireland,
however, it unfortueately happened that the Established
Church was not the Church of the people—was not the
Church of the poor. Unquestionably this was a very awk-
ward topic :or the enemies of the Establishment to have at
their command. Therefore, it struck him (Viscount Mel-
bourne.) that the only course for him to pursue was to ac-
knowledge the predominance of the Establishment ; but at
the same time to reduce it to such limits as should be com-
mensurate with the wants of the Protestant population. That
was the ground upon which he supported the appropriation
clause. With respect to the payment of the clergy, which was
another part of the Bill, many objections had been stated by
the Noble Earl and others, and also by the Noble and Learned
Lord. That part of the measure was unquestionably open
to many difficulties : but it gave a sacrifice for the peace of
Ireland, and without that sacrliice there was no chance of
obtaining peace. The hopes he entertained upon the sub-
ject he did not think it p;udent on the opening of this mea-
sure to state, ncr did 'se think it prudent to state them scow.
Of course, he could, not entirely despair of the effect of a Bill
which he had hireself brought forward.
The question was then put and agreed to, and the House
resolved itself into a Committee on th Bill.
Clause-, 1 to 12 inclusive were agreed to.
Oa Clause 13 being proposed,
Lard F IT ZG E RA LD said that the clauses 13 up to 2d re-
lated to appeals against the composition. He intended to
move that all those douses he omitted, and then he should
propose introducing two clauses which would givo the same
power of opening the composition as was given by Lord Stan-
ley's Act; giving a right cf appeal during the first six weeks
after the composition was entered into. The Noble Lcrd then
moved that clause 13 he omitted.
Lord BROUGHAM said if this question stood alone, he
should not object to the amendment ; hut as it was intended
by the present Bill to effect a settlement of the whole ques-
tion—that being, in fact, the only recommendation of the
measure—he was opposed to the proposition of his Noble
Frierel.
:after a few words from the Marquis of Clanticarde, Lord
C,arbery, and Lord liathertoo,
Lord PL UN K objected to the clause being milled.
The Count ittee divided—
For retaining the clause
Against it

38

Majority
The clause was t;ce-irdingly struck out, of the 1.3.11.
(;lames 14 to 'aclusive ncre also then struck out.
Lord ZG D then ropt,scd the nr,erlion of a
Luc givitig a Power of a; peal againit the composition,
within six weeks aficr the composition shall have been entered

The Marcrais of CLANRICARDE suggested that the
ir
time for ~.aiting- au appeal should be cxtertdctl to the 20th
of Octob-..r.

Aftp, a short ci-nversation,
V'.gocunt MELBOURNE thought the Ist of Ortobor would
be auffic,ent time to allow to parties for making appeals.
Lord FITZGERALD was willing to adopt that period.
The clause hm.inr:,, been amended to that effect, was then
ins; rted in the Bill, as was also another chase proposed bj the
"I" =route Lord, and relating to the same subject.
The, several clauses were then agreed to, the House re-
sorre,.., and the report was ordered to be recoiled to-morrow
(this day), w
ith -the ;Annerstanding that any amendments were
to he made on the third reading
The Custody of Insane Persons. Bill went through a Com-
mittee, and, being reported without amendments was ordered
to be read a thi7ki time to-morrow (this day). ,
The House then adjourned till this day.