The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, 1849.

tt3et.t.lic step taken by the Vicar of Leeds, in biireing a
,‘"all before Parliament, at his own expense, to divide his
parish into districts, whereby he deprived himself of
his income, and commented on that case as another
Orin why they should adopt the motion of the Noble
sio,rd with the view of rendering unn( eessary the expen-
we,course taken by clergymen in their individual ea
tie'taitaY for the division of their parishes, the Hon. Gen-
as
.11 concluded by expressing his conviction that the
troPointment of the Commission proposed, and the adop-
-64,1, Of the measures he contemplated, would effect a vast
I:ing of the public money.
and LIORSMAN declared his gratification at the tone
laisawanner of the debate, and proceeded to remove some
ts thi3Prehensions which he feared existed with respe,ct
to ?bject the Noble Lord the Member for Bath sought
tat-‘,ain• The Noble Lord merely endeavoured to work
te,e;" application of a principle which in individual
'IA had been found productive of great good, and to
fat .er the Church institution as effective as possible. Be
Co eateful to the Noble Levi, and he trusted that the
th,r:alssioners would comprise gentlemen who could
1• 115 their time to the necessary labour of the Corn
ate te' and that the inquiry would not be postponed,
ee report long retarded.
tei r' SII)NEY HERBERT wished to make an obser-
la4 as to the working of the Commission. Allusion
by eon made to the abuses arising from pluralities, but
bad he oat of those evils were prospectively dealt with,
restaine„ was not prepared to deny that the plurality
mach tons ought to be carried farther. He said thus
leant, lest in voting against the amendment, as he
dereeudeeda to do,
.h.e should be classed among those who
tte„, pluralities. He would carry the law affecting
lei; to the farthest extent, vested interests being pie -
bothd, and he hoped the time was not far distant when
illo pluralities and non-residence would be things un-
ts, ". He wished to urge on the Noble Mover of the
thaoniketion before the House, to whom he thought the
II:ty of of all religious denominations were due, the neces
tioo:PaYing attention to the means by which informe-
istiewaa to be collected by the Commissioners. The ex-
organizetion should not be overlooked, but the
tt:(ll'.alission ought to be worked through the chapters
tioia qrchdeacons., who were acquainted with the condi-
)tte °f the arehdeacouries. Ho trusted that the Hon.
titeber for 'Montrose would withdraw his amendments,
A
of
:the 'Luse unanimously appoint the Commission
jytii‘inn'Y called for.
itsera,' RusiE said all that he wished was to make the
str'Y as general as possible. The Hon. Gentleman
his °Proceeding to restate the grounds on which he rested
srdnendments, when he was met by cries of " Order,
sea from the Chair; upon which he moved his first
pod
Seae ,nient, to the effect that after the word "
the Noble Lord's motion, there he added the
Itteene" who attend the Established Church;" but which
A-,„111001 was negatived without a division. The Hon.
teti'l'u'r then proseeded to move his second amendment,
intotei,effect that the Commission to be appointed inquire
ie best mode of putting an end to ecclesiastical stne-
-0 feniz,,,,nd Pluralities. He considered the lion. Member for
ittxf4-‘,"4 (Mr. Wood) had introduced a strong argument
Rood °lir of that amendment from his statement. of th
title results which had followed the abolition of the
iiPres in the prebend of Westminster.
A l sair' 1-iRIGHT wished to ask the Noble Lord (Lord
°Y) whether he was willing to make the addition to
tufilaiotion which he (Mr. B.) had suggested in regard to
g together small parishes where practicable and
61 to be advantageous.
• !',IIUME—Should the Noble Lord agree to that, I
erin it to my amendment.
. GOULBURN hoped his Noble Friend would be
ati
eclu Sin adopting either of the amendments proposed.
the -,,°nsidered that the additions proposed would impede
taae°Posed inquiry, as they would be the means of
SiO it up with legal questions, and matters of indi•
lateolt`. right and vested interests, which would distract
tig, ion from the real matter it was intended to inves-
a,;`°,. Instead of introducing any matter that would
about the the progress of inquiry, he held that everything
ae"tiultiel be done -to facilitate it, and he conceived that they
in a best consult the interests of the Church by refus-
evlCestthie amendment. In regard to the motion itself, the
teie tlr had been so fully argued that he would not de-
hula eo House with any further comment upon it. He
to se .9M),* that it was peculiarly gratifying to him
he d°„°rle for whom he entertained so high a respect, as
seehl4 for the Noble Lord, bringing forward a subject of
Pare importance, and which would be the means of im-
iqng so much benefit to the country.
reef:* lIUME then said he would withdraw his amend-
that` as related to sinecures and pluralities, but press
WouiP°rtion of it referring to the union of parishes. He
Pry till therefore move this—" And to inquire into the
aad'e-e•etY of uniting small parishes where practicable
tueevantageous.
deseprba, ASHLEY would not dispute that the matter are;
f,,",ng of consideration, nor did he deny but that it
esP "a Proper in several cases to unite small parishes,
sekrtaially towns; but he thought the making it a
too er of reference to the Commission would be placing
the much on their shoulders, and that it should be made
tsoubject of a separate inquiry.
Ledrcl J. RUSSELL said he agreed with the Noble
ta as to the impropriety of referring that matter to the
Of ire alission now to be appointed. It would tee the means
it o,_Peding their d-liberations, and therefore he thought
ilrg.h,t not, to be pre-sod.
s. no
to
was of the same opinion.
fee le N. BUXTON said he believed the gent ral
timing of the House to be that such a Commission of In-
tfte Yrlvas necessary, and he did not think it fair that
le iion. Members, who had taken up the subject, came
10111 at House, and asked for powers to investigate it,
that Other Hon. Member should start up, and insist
aic;t: there should also be referred to the Commis-
for to be appointed a totally different matter
Of meonsideration than that proposed by the originators
Wool Motion. lie was satisfied that the best results
1.11,' Proceed from the inquiry called for, and he trusted
hs- amendment would not be pressed.
ths-wnrci ASHLEY said he had been found fault with by
rife,..4,°n• Members for Montrose and Manchester for not
tte-rtcg to what had been done by the Dissenters in
Plie„e,?urse of his remarks. Had he been making an ape
o,ictn to the House for a grant of public money to carry
ese ue objects he had in view, he would have certainly
ta,tadorest it his duty to have done so. His
I:ll':teld:lTtileath
its referring
had no reference to that.
iles utonourable Member for Montrose had also
referrt•ng to ragged schools he had con-
tau them with the Established Church. Now, he
colityn'Y did refer to ragged schools, but he did not
°oell'e: them with the Established Church; and ho would
',4elsber, it unjust did he not state that they were deeply
fk "eu to Dissenters for the exertions they had made
tsfe-/OUT of these schools; and he could state that, in
keer"lce to them, he had always seen the greatest har-
Mprevail between Churchmen and Dissenters.-
414 atbrs hear.) He had been also charged with overlook-
Pte4 Physical condition of the people in his desire to
bad for spiritual destitution. On the contrary, he
he -paid that he would be anxious to take all the steps
di,t°uld to alleviate distress, and he believed that such
Per:s.l could be best ascertained and remedied by a pr0'44;1.4'
'44;1.4' vigorously worked parochial staff, He knew
lee i Parishes so large that the clergyman coull only
theal' Parishioners once in two weeks, so scattered were
slat' °yet the country, and he knew a parish where the
krigiran had to ride 24 miles to visit cne of his
thsEe
tititiers who was in bad health. In such cases as
lltd ° Commission would have to suggest a remedy,
Wished was for the remedying that state of things he
, Alt the Commission appointed.
ter 4 few words from Mr. W. BROWN, the House
et], when there appeared—
For the amendment •
Against it lll
tom Majority against the amendment--93
,th Ashley's motion was then agreed to.
s - SPEAKER proceeded to call over the names of
those 17tibers who had motions on the paper, and all
*illie,4,°n. Gentlemen who were present expressed their
Q>iyheati to waive their right of precedence in order to
Lordo J. Russell to bring forward his resolutions
c Irish Poor-law, with the exception of
tlatra' 8- CRAWFORD, who said he would think it. his
ap "th' Move the resolution of which he had given notion
° question that the Speaker leave the chair.
.a LANDLORD AND TENANT.
Lreaa'rUSEY obtained leave to bring in a Bil.l to im-
a' tile relation between landlord and tenant in Eng-
- and Wales.
POOR. LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
teat. I JOHN RUSSELL said the motion have to
tbe)o.° is, that Mr. Speaker leave the chair, in order that
litt"'°use go into Committee on the report of the Se-
°l:nosittets on the Irish Poor-law. All I intend to
,1
Present is to ask the House to go into Committee,
It."cil that is dune I shall lay before the House the
steeant which I intend to make on that subject.
the SUARMAN CRAWFORD then rose and moved
'as,--itendnient of which he had given notice, which
j:ilhat it is unconstitutional and unjust to impose
farticular localities, so long as the public general
rlt'ld el° of Ireland is paid into an Imperial Treasury,l
t• h-aeed at the disposal of an Imperial Liegis,tuirie,,3
atonside general purposes of the United Kin
&I%nstered it unfair to cause the people of Ulster and
INieedereLto. support the western landlords,. I who had
ato property. Let their properties be put
tiette the market for it, and then, if there was a defi-
tjaeo3:4have recourse to some such system as the present.
the no‘ended that it was unjust to call on the people of
,
Lllothe,,`" of Ireland to make good the deficiency in
heir; Part of the country. It was a charge that should
laqa tale '3Y:the Imperial Treasury. When Hon. Mem-
intl:-'d •about the share of taxation borne by Ire-
;Nerelam" Would remind them what was the condition of
at the time of the Union. lii 1801 the debt of
°teasel amounted to 28,000,0001., and in 1847 it had in-
ensarred,° 130,000,0001. How that increase had oc-
asge fuer could nut tell. From the period of the Union
• -4.8 of Ireland in the hands of England, and
I klitncl it were -
ad the entire management
ta The
,e.ed at 4, Proportion which Ireland had to pay
,was
elatee the
e time of the Union, and the Finance Com-
tikla 1815 had declared hat the burdens imposed
°hO,"hanct were too great. If that were the case,
1.41 1 ?as to blame ? Who made Ireland bankrupt
;r.slaBnsej It vsasEngland.. He held that in justice
bear
was chargeable with no portion
~of the debt
gelee as not incurred at he time of the Union.—(Hear,
Ivey t'l, Anothealletation which had been made
'e_cf sa-allt Ireland was no subjected to the same amount
with England! But why was she not ?
;got t "aa been stated that the reason why Ireland was
:re(jexed was on the ground of her inability to pay
e`ar, hear.) But that was no reason why she
1)44 eliZribe so taxed. He was quite ready that Ire •
at he be taxed to such an extent as would be fair,
iota th contended that as such taxation would be paid
Peed. ° Imperial Treasury, so should the necessary ex-_
qua
`)iit Of ,6 for the relief of the poor of Ireland he paid
ne Imperial Treasury. The liee Yee_Ler con-
lee to Urge se . . _•e
-lett) a eo touuances or his views at cereeneeta..a.
Mr. 1,, nd concluded by moviug the amendment.
tin)-ea R. ROCHE was opposed to the amendment of
Ilember for Rochdale, Every one must agree

that something ,must he done for the people of Ireland,
and he was anxious to hear what the Government I
meant to do.—(Hear, hear.) He did not want there-
fore to encumber himself with abstract propositions.
He must, however, confess that laying a rate in
aid, upon the north of Ireland, was merely retributive
justice.—(Hear, hear.) When at the time of Crom-
well's invasion, his followers possessed themselves of the
land in that province, the owners who were dispossessed,
were told to go to hell or Connaught—and they took
the alternative, and went to Connaught.—(Hear, and
laughter.) There they settled and rapidly increased—
and now as an act of retributive justice the population
of Ulster were called on to aid in supporting the de-
scendants of the men who had been driven by their
forefathers to Connaught.—(Hear, hear.) If the rate
in aid was to be opposed, he hoped it would be upon
better grounds than any he had heard advanced by the
Hon. Member. _ _ _

Lord CASTLEREAGH recommended the Hon.
Member for Rochdale (Mr. Sharman Crawford) to
withdraw his amendment, but said if he prei.-std it to a
division he (Lord Castlereagh) would vote in its favour.
Mr. S. CR A.WFORD regretted he could not comply
with the Noble Lord's request.
After a few words from the Marquis of Granby, Col.
Dunne, Sir John Walsh, and Mr. Reynolds, the House
divided, when there appeared—

For the amendment ... 15
Against it ... ... 139
Majority against the amendment ... —124

On the original motion being put,
Sir J. WALSH said that he regretted to find that
the Ministers found considerable promptitude on the
part of every Committee that they select-d, he would
not use the word packed, for the purpose of carrying
out measures for Ireland according to their own views.
He felt bound to say that the Ministry had no precedent
or experience of the House for their mode of action
with regard to the poor-laws of that country, and, he
contended that the sixpenny rate in aid to be proposed
by the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) would be
equally inadequate and useless as the 10,000,000/.
already engulphed, and as the 50,0001., which would
be also swamped; and that before the end of the present
session there would be another call on the time and at-
tention of the House for a double rate in aid.—
(Hear.) The proposed rate in aid amouniing
to 330,0001. would not be sufficient for the sup-
port of the twenty-one insolvent unions even for two?
months, and all the disastrous evils attendant on that
wretched country were to be attributed rather to the
vicious system of legislation hurriedly carried through
by the Minister's ignorance of the condition of the coun-
try. He contended that nothing could be more unjust
or impolitic than to tax Ulster and Leinster, in addition
to their present oppressive taxation, for the support of
Connaught and Munster ; for such a line of proceeding,
he felt assured, would drive the farmers of those pro-
vinces from their native homes to America or some other
country. He totally disagreed with the Hon. Member
for Stroud (Mr. Scrope) that the blame was to be laid
on the Irish proprietors, and argued that all was owing,
to a vicious system of legislation. He thought that the
plan of local taxation, which they here proposed, was
not the proper mode of proceeding ; and for that reason,
he should certainly take the sense of the House upon the
question of the Speaker's leaving the chair, in the event
of the resolution of the Hon. Member for Rochdale being
rejected:—(Cries of " Divide.)
Mr. NAPIER complained of the conduct of the Go-
vernment, after promising a comprehensive scheme of
remedial measures, in bringing forward the plan of an
auxiliary fund. Even were that proposition not prema-
ture, ho thought that if no more just measures of relief
could have been suggested than this, at least they should
not have been called upon to affirm the principle that
for the poverty of Connaught, and to raise an auxiliary
fund to make up deficiencies in those insolvent unions,
it was reasonable to tax the industry and the honesty
and the virtue of localities which had no connexion
whatever with the districts which were the objects of
their legislation. He would not attempt to draw any
distinction in these matters between Catholics and Pro-
testants, between the north of Ireland and the west, but
he would most earnestly submit to the House, that the
tenantry of Ulster were not in any degree responsible
for the distress of Connaught. It was trifling with
the interests and rights of property to make the
prosperous land pay for the unfortunate. They said
they had a large number of helpless creatures, and he
asked them how they were to enable the social ma-
chinery of the community to keep in action? Obviously
they had no other system than that of maintaining a vast
army of these mendicants by the resources of the labour-
ing and thriving population. Iu short, they intended to
allow want and indolence to fatten on competent provi-
sion and industry. Those being his views on the ques-
tion, he should oppose the adoption of a line of policy so
inconsistent with justice.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the two Hon. Mem-
bers who had resisted the motion of the Speaker's leav-
ing the chair had followed a most extraordinary course,
in protracting a debate which, two hours before, they
expressed themselves anxious to bring to a conclusion.
He would not fellow those Hon. Gentlemen into the
various matters of which they had spoken, but he would
earnestly appeal to the House not to oppose any further
impediment in the way of his Noble Friend, or to pre-
vent him from laying before the House the plan of the
Government, accompanied by such explanations of it as
the House required. At a time when there was on all
hands admitted to be so much necessity for dispatch, and
considering that it was their object to prevent the pro.
gress of destitution and starvation, he did hope that this
discussion might new terminate.—(Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said there appeared to be some mis-
conception on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman as
to the manner in which the business of the House had
been conducted tint evening. A resolution had been
moved by the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Craw-
ford), against which he (Mr. Disraeli) and many gentle•
men on his side of the House thought it their duty to
vote. It invited them to declare that it was uncon-
stitutional and unjust to impose on Ireland separate na-
tional taxation for the wants of particular localities, so
long as the public general revenue of Ireland was paid
into an Imperial Treasury, and placed at the disposal
of an Imperial Legislature for the general purposes
of the United Kingdom. He, for one, could not
assent to that proposition. If the financial system
of the two countries had been identical, if there
had been a fiscal, as there was a political union be-
tween the two countries, he should have voted with
the Hon. Member; but remembering that the systems
of taxation prevailing in England and in Ireland were
different—remembering that the Queen's subjects in
Ireland were not liable to the window-tax, or other
assessed taxes, or to the property tax, he thought that
the proposition which the Hon. Gentleman called upon
them to affirm was not one which he could support. He
could not approve of that part of those tactics which
were sometimes adopted by Hon. Members for Ireland,
who on fiscal subjects always insisted that there should
be a difference between the two countries, while on po-
litical subjects they were always ready to affirm that
the two countries wore identical. But the only propo-
sition before the House was the proposition of the Go-
vernment; and they were now asked to go into Com-
mittee to sanction, in fact, the scheme of the Govern-
ment. Now he was equally opposed to that proposition
as to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Rochdale;
and was it not evident, after the new regulations to which
they had all agreed for the dispatch of public business,
that when the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Rochdale was disposed of, it wits totally impossible to
oppose the scheme of the Government except by moving
a direct negative? The Right lion. Gentleman who had
just addressed them in a tone of groat indignation had
asked— Was it not known to all that they were opposing
the only means by which the Minister could explain the
proposition which he had to recommend to their notice?
He (Mr. Disraeli) did not agree with the Right Hon.
Baronet. The Noble Lord might have risen immediately
when the question was moved; he might have moved
that question himself and have made an exposition of
his reasons for proposing the adoption of his resolution.
It would not have, been an unusual course—(Hear, hear)
—but a usual course; and it would even have been a re-
spectful course.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
His Right Honourable Colleague (Mr. Labouchere) last
year entered into a preliminary exposition on the sub-
ject of the navigation-laws. That instance was not so
strong as the present; because the Right Honourable
Gentleman had not placed his resolutions before the
House; but, in the present case, Government, having
laid their plan before them, nothing would have been
more legitimate than for the Noble Lord to have entered
into an explanation of the grounds for adopting this
policy, and as he refused to take that step, nothing could
be more legitimate than for the Hon. Member for Rad-
norshire to adopt the course he had taken. Under any
circumstances, that was the course which the Noble Lerd
ought to have pursued. But were there not peculiar
circumstances in the present case which were calculated
to excite the suspicion of Hon. Gentlemen—to stimulate
their criticism—and to take the earliest and every lawful
opportunity to canvass the policy of the Government?—
(Cheers.) Had they evidence before them that it was a
policy so matured, so well digested, founded upon such
special information, and supported by such previous
investigation, that they were to be in a haste and a
hurry to carry it into legislative form?—(Hear, hear.)
The circumstances under which the resolution was
laid on the table of the House were -very re-
markable. What was the use of being in a hurry in
sanctioning this resolution ? In another place the
same resolution had also appeared, and in that other
place, at the earnest invitation of the leading Minister,
of the Crown in that place, they had proceeded to ap-
point a Committee to receive evidence in support of the
resolution.—(Hear, hear.) What was the use, then, of
the House of Commons being in such a hurry to send up
their sanction of the resolution, when those in another
place would be found busy in examining whether there
were sufficient reasons for adopting it? Ho took it tor
granted, that in that other place they would pursue their
affairs in a business-like manner, and in such a way as
would be satisfactory to the country—(Cheers)—that
they would, at least, before adopting such a resolu-
tion as this, be sure that there was a good foundation
for it, and that they would also form some estimate as
to the fund that may accrue from its adoption.
They would also, he presumed, have some idea of the
manner in which that fund was to be expended; and
would take care, before they proposed to levy a rate in
aid from the north of Ireland, that there should be a
sound, substantial, and comprehensive valuation upon
which they were to levy it.—(Cheers.) These were all
circumstances which, no doubt, would be considered in
another place, and if so, then the House might depend
upon it some time would elapse before those in that other
place arrived at a conclusion. There was, therefore, no
reason why the House should be in such a state of pre-
cipitation to pass without comment, upon an occasion so
opportune, and so legitimate for discussion, a resolution
so unprecedented in its character, and in its effect so
:Y nL'lnouz.-,--(Clieerc) He took the opportunity o!
t,:iting against the conclusion that because he was or-
posed to this proposition lie was therefore opposed to
any satisfactory plan for rendering assistance to
Ireland, Jle would repeat, it was the duty of Govern-

meat with respect to the poor-law of Ireland to
have met Parliament with a comprehensive measure.
The Government ought to have come fore ard and settled
the questions of the arrea of taxation, of arrears of rent,
and of waste lauds. Had they brought forward well
digested measures upon those subjects, they would have
found no difficulty in obtaining the sanction of all par-
ties to measures of such a beneficial character. Under
such circumstances such a proposition as the present
would have been of a temporary character, but under
existing circumstances, who could maintain that this
measure would be merely tsmporary? He had listened
to the appeal of the Right Honourable Baronet
(Sir George Grey), and he protested against the
spirit of that appeal.—(Loud cheers.) If the House
yielded to such appeals, especially since the regulations
which had been lately introduced, they might prejudice
in a most injurious manner the right of public discus-
sion. And, when he considered that the Government on
such en important subject had, he would not say trifled
with the House, but rather had trifled with their own
reputation, by the manner in which they had acted in
regard to the policy they recommended to bo adopted
with respect to Ireland; and when he considered that no
one could for forty-eight consecutive hours be sure what
was the policy they were pursuing and recommending
the House to adopt, he for one could not advise his Hon.
Friend the Member for Radnorshire not to divide the
House, but would rather express a hope that Hon. Gen-
tlemen on both sides of the House would take this oppor-
tunity of expressing their opinion upon this momentous
question by submitting it to a division.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—I very much regret, Sir, that the
Hon. Gentleman who has just sat down should have
thought that a case of this kind, affecting the subsist-
ence of a distressed portion of the kingdom, was a proper
matter for a party discussion.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Gentleman knows full well that when a general rate is
proposed the manner and time of proposing it is in a
Committee of the whole House.—(Hear, hear.) He
knows full well that the forms and regulations of the
House do not allow any such proposition to be made to
the House; and that if I were now to propose the reso-
lutions which I have put on the notice paper I Should
immediately be stopped by the Speaker and told that it
was incompetent for me to propose them.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman must also know that as I could not
propose them except in Committee, it was natural that I
should wish to accompany them with the reasons why I
thought them necessary. Had I been able to do so, it
was competent for the Hon. Member for the University
of Dublin, or for any other Hon. Gentleman, to have
told us that the principle we had adopted was vicious;
that the measure we had proposed would produce mis-
chief; and that therefore the House ought not to sanc-
tion it. That would have been a fair course to pursue
with respect to the proposition we have to submit; but
to interpose at this stage, and to say that we shall not go
into Committee at all, and to make that proposal on the
ground stated by the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli),
viz., that delay is required, and that long deliberation is
necessary—to do that, Sir, is, in my opinion, worse than
trifling with our reputation, as he says we aro doing;
it is trifling with the welfare, I might say with
the existence of many of our fellow subjects in Ireland.
—(Loud cheers.) What do the papers before us tell us
with respect to seine of the unions? (Hero the Noble
Lord read a brief extract from the papers on
Irish distress, respecting the extreme destitution pre-
vailing in the Scarify and Swineford unions.) It is
in these circumstances that the Honourable Gentle-
man says that much delay is required, that it is necessary
to go into every question with respect to the poor-law in
Ireland, that it is necessary to go into all the different
valuations before any temporary remedy is proposed for
this state of things.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentle-
man, the Member for the University of Dublin, chooses
to say that we have brought forward this measure as a
single measure—e ithout any other proposition for the
amendment of the poor-law. The Hon. Gentleman must
know full well that in the Select Committee on the Irish
Poor-law I stated several propositions which I thought
it the duty of the Government to propose, and I am
ready to state to tho House when in Committee the
general nature of those propositions; end, therefore, I
think it was not very candid of the Hon. Gentleman,
having heard some of those propositions discussed, to
come to this House and say that this was a single propo-
sition. But the Hon. Gentleman says—and the same tone
has been taken up by other persons of weight and
authority—that unless we lay before the House a settled
plan for the reduction of the area of taxation, it is im-
possible that they can agree in the proposition for a rate
in aid. Now, what we have done with respect to that
matter is this, we appointed a commission, consisting of
persons fuliy competent for the task ; but, although they
had been many months at the labour, they had not been
able to advance further than a proposition for additional
unions, and forming electoral divisions in those unions.
They propose a scheme for the diminution of the
areas of the taxation, so that the different
persons paying the rates may be within easy
reach of each other, and may co-operate with each other;
but they did not think it right to propose that every
sm ill property should form a separate area of taxation.
—(flear, hear.) Now, if it be meant that unless we
agree that every separate property shou'd form a dis-
tinct area of taxation, these gentlemen will not agree
even to consider the proposition for a rate in aid, I must
say I don't think it very likely that we shall make that
proposition.—(Cheers.) I have a letter in my pocket
from a gentleman who was formerly employed on the
Poor-law Commission, but who is not now so employed,
—whose abilities and experience give me great confi-
dence in his judgment; and he says that while the area
of taxation ought to be diminished, yet if every property
were made a separate area of taxation, you would see
evictions enormously increased; and, that there was
hardly any measure from which an equal amount of
misery would accrue if that plan were adopted.
Mr. OSBORNE—Is that letter from Mr. Senior?
Lord J. RUSSELL—No, it is not from Mr. Senior.
(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Radnorshire (Sir
J. Walsh) proposes a plan for the relief of Ireland—
which consists in a proposition for the reduction of the
area of taxation, coupled with another proposition for
emigration. I do not think proper to adopt the propo-
sition of the Hon. Gentleman. I think that if you
make your whole plan to consist of these two proposi-
tions—that the area of taxation should be reduced to
the property of every individual landlord, so that he
would have it in his power by driving every poor tenant
from his property to clear himself from the obligation
of paying poor-rates, and if you coupled with that a
very large scheme of emigration, you would produce,
in the first instance, great misery in Ireland, and in the
second instance, you would be conveying numbers of un-
fortunate persons to a distant shore without making any
provision for them after they are there.—(Hear, hear.)
Being ready, as I said I should be, to propose in Com-
mittee the resolutions of which I have given notice,
and to explain my general view of the poor-law, I must
say that it is not the plan of the Hon. Gentleman, and
that I believe that plan, if adopted, would create greater
calamity in Ireland than any that yet exists.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HERBERT repelled the charge of party motives
which the Noble Lord had made. He himself had come
into the House without any party motive, and determined
to support the Government on every occasion on which
he could do so consistently with his sense of duty to his
country. He had supported them until he found that
the existence of the class to which he belonged, and the
existence of property in Ireland, were "incompatible with
the existence of her Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON concnrred in the view expressed
by the Hon. Member who had just addressed the House.
If they attempted to levy this rate in aid, they would
add twenty to thirty bankrupt unions to the other
twenty-one bankrupt unions. Ile contended that there
was a great disproportion between England and Ireland
iu respect to the means applicable to the support of the
poor in both countries.
Lord CASTLEREAGH could not allow this debate
to terminate without saying a word or two upon it. In
the outset he must express his regret that the debate had
taken so Irish a turn, by which the Noble Lord was
prevented from making his statement to the House. In
the first place, he must express his objection to the con-
stitution of the Committee appointed to consider the
Irish poor-law. He objected to the proposed vote in aid,
but, from what had occurred elsewhere, he had every
reason to believe this proposition would fall to the ground.
The Noble Lord then read an extract from a letter of the
late Lord Lonsdale, to show that the intention of the
legislative union was to make the whole resources of the
empire applicable to meet the wants of portions of it.
He thought it would be a difficult matter to collect this
proposed rate in aid, and if they were to persevere in
it they might create feelings in the north which would
induce the loyal people of that part of Ireland to
merge all distinctions, and Orangemen and Ribbonmen
might join together to break up that union which now
so happily existed between this country and Ireland. He
would entreat them to pause in respect to this measure,
and not to force the loyal people of Ireland to adopt the
course which he alluded to. The gentry of Ireland were
anxious as far as possible to assimilate the taxation of
Ireland to that of England; but:they had no right to tax
the land of Ireland in the way proposed. The Noble
Lord then read an extract from a pamphlet by a gentle.
man, named Martin, in support of his views, and again
expressed a hope that the rate in aid would not be en-
forced.
Mr. PRYSE complained that no Welshman had been
placed on the Committee referred to.—(A laugh.)
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL expressed his regret that
the Noble Lord had been prevented from making his
statement by this discussion.
After a few words from Mr. CLEMENTS, similar to
those made by the Hon. Member for Limerick,
Colonel DUNNE said there was no doubt about the
proposition of the Noble Lord, although he had not
made it to that Hoase.—(A laugh.) He contended that
any such proposition would be a violation of the Act of
Union.
Mr. KERR said that, if the rate in aid were carried,
the magistrates in that part of the country from which
he came would give up their commissions.—(Hear, and a
laugh.)
Mr. GROGAN said that in Ireland there was no con-
fidence whatever in the Committee appointed to inquire
into the operation of the Irish poor-law. Supposing
they were to carry the proposition of a rate in aid, were
they to levy another sixpence in the pound when the
sixpence in the pound under this proposition had been
disposed of? He would oppose a proposition of a rate
in aid.
Mr. REYNOLDS said the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Dublin University, who represented Ulster, not
in a Parliamentary but in a sympathetic sense—(A
laugh)—had told them that if the House passed this six-
penny rate, it would shake the loyalty of that province
to its foundation. The Noble Lord, the tone of whose
speech was so excellent that every one must admire it,
had echoed that sentiment, and the Hon. Member for
Downpatrick had threatened them with a wholesale re-
signation of the magistrates. If that was so, the loyalty
lIL-ter might b o celled a sixpenny loyalty.—(Laugh-
ter.) It was for the Howe of Commons in its wisdom—
he would say in its mercy—to decide whether it would
interpose between a starving people on the one side,
and unwilling contautoro of aid on the other, Lie

represented a constituency, the value of whose property
was 1,000,0001., about 1-13th of the entire rateable pro•
perty in Ireland. If this rate were agreed to it would in-
flict on them an additional sum exceeding 20,000/., from
which they would derive no benefit, because in Dublin
the highest rate in one year was only 3s. in the pound.
He was no advocate for this rate in aid, but he had
voted for it in Committee, and should vote for it in that
House, on certain conditions.—(A laugh.) It was a
rate that ought not to be inflicted on Ireland if it could
be avoided—he was told it could not. He understood
from the Treasury Bench that they could no longer look
for relief from the Consolidated Fund. From the sup-
porters of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth, he understood that the votes for Irish distress
had reached their limit. He was told that 21 unions were
in a state of bankruptcy, and that several hundred thou-
sands of persons were starving. Then he would ask those
who opposed this measure, were they prepared to incur
the responsibility of letting those people die of starvation
in what he called the midst of plenty, when food was
at a drug price? One reason why he should vote for
this rate in aid was, that ho felt ashamed, as an Irish-
man, to be repeatedly told in that House that the Irish
were mendicants at the door of that House.—(Hear,
hear.) He looked to all parts of Ireland as his country
—he felt that an insult to ono was an insult to all. He
believed that Ireland was capable of supporting her
pauperism if f4irly treated. The Hon. Member for
Buckinghamshire said that Ireland was politically but
not fiscally connected with this country. That was a
distinction he could not understand. When they asked
for a domestic Legislature they were told that Ireland
was an integral portion of the British Empire.
It might be a dangerous doctrine for the
Honourable Member to repeat too often. The
conditions upon which he would vote for this resolution
were that all the income derived from real property in
Ireland should be made available for the purpose of the
rate in aid, including money in the funds, annuities, rent
charges, mortgages, and •jointures. They had already
tried to make the people of Ireland pay the assessed
taxes, but they were obliged to abandon the attempt on
the principle that you could not take the knee buckle
off a Highlander.—(A. laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) had assimilated the stamp duties between
the two countries as an equivalent for the non-extension
of the income-tax to Ireland. A sum of not less than
9,000,0001. per annum was received into this country
from absentee rents and interest upon mortgages in
Ireland, and this sum paid income-tax into the Ex-
chequer, so that Ireland ought to get credit for that
amount. _ _ _ _ _

—.—....
Sir W. VERNER' said he felt himself called upon to
defend the loyalty of Ulster. On two occasions that
province received the thanks of Parliament for coming
forward to put down rebellion in Ireland.
Sir L. O'BRIEN objected to the measure, and de-
clared his intention to vote against it.
Sir T. ACLAND thought they ought not to be called
upon to vote in favour of the plan at the present moment.
He should vote for going into Committee, in order to
hear what the plan was in detail, but would dot thereby
pledge himself in support of the resolution.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee ... ... 195
Against it
Majority
On our re-admission we found the House in Com-
mittee and the CHAIRMAN reading the following resolu-
tions:—" That in each of the next two years there shall
be paid by every union in Ireland a sum equal to the
rate of 6d. in the pound on each electoral division in
such union, towards a general fund for the relief of
the poor in Ireland; that the said sum shall be paid to
a separate account at the Bank of Ireland, in the name
of the Paymaster of Civil Services in Ireland, and shall
be applied in such manner as Parliament shall direct."
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he should to-morrow
(this day) address a statement to the House having re-
ference to the foregoing resolutions, but as it had been
intended to bring forward the navy estimates on that
day it was arranged that the statement regarding those
estimates should be postponed, and he should there-
fore ask the House to agree to a vote of 200,0001. on.
account. Having taken that vote he should imme-
diately afterwards make the statement which he had just
mentioned.
Mr. BERRIES said he should not object to the vote
of 200,000/. on account.
In reply to a question by Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY,
Sir F. BARING said that the vote would he on ac-
count of the excess in the navy estimates.
In reply to a question from Mr. BERRIES,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated, that even though the de-
b Ate on the Irish rate-in-aid resolution should not ter-
minate to. morrow (Friday), he should still proceed with
the question of the navigation laws on Monday.
The House having resumed, the following Bills were
read a third time:—
Relief of Distress (Ireland) Bill, Vice-Guardians of
Unions (Ireland) Bill, Overseers (Cities and Boroughs)
Bill, Out-door Paupers Bill, and Buckingham Summer
Assizes Bill, and
The House adjourned at half-past One o'clock.

Viscount Melgund, married the daughter of a general.
P. W. S. Miles, married a daughter of Major-General
Sir William Napier.
Sir W. Morrison, a major general in the East India
Company's service.
Hon. E. W. M. Loyd, has a cousin an officer in the navy.
Earl of Mulgrave, a lieutenant in the Guards, and a

major of militia.
Viscount Newport, has one uncle a captain in the navy,
and another a captain in the army.
Lord Norreys, has a brother an officer in the Life Guards.
Sir D. Norreys, son of a lieut.-colonel in the army.
Sir P. Nugent, son of a commander in the navy.
Lord Ossulston, has an uncle a captain in the navy.
Sir John Owen, has a son a colonel in the army.
Lord Clarence Paget, a captain in the navy, son and se-
cretary to the Master-General of the Ordnance.
Lord George Paget, a lieut.-colonel of dragoons, son of

the blaster General of the Ordnance.
Lord Palmerston, lieut.-colonel of the Hampshire militia.
John Parker has been secretary to the Admiralty.
J. W. Patten, a colonel of militia.
Sir Robert Peel, married the daughter of a general, has
a brother a colonel in the army, and a son captain in
the navy.
Jonathan Peel, brother of the preceding, a colonel in the
army, has been Surveyor-general of the Ordnance.
Hon. E. G. D. Pennant, a colonel in the army.
Sir R. Pi4ot, son of a general, is further connected with
the army through the marriage of his daughter to one
of the Fitzroys.
W. Penney, a captain of yeomanry cavalry.
D. Pugh, a major of yeomanry cavalry.
G. A. Reid was colonel in the Lifd Guards.
E. R. Rice, a captain of yeomanry cavalry.
Henry Rich, son of an admiral.
G. Rushout, a captain in the Life Guards.
Lord John Russell, has four brothers in the army, three
in the navy. a nephew in the army, a cousin in the

navy, Ecc.,kc.,
Fr. C. H. Russell, an officer in the Fusilier Guards, son
of a major-general, nephew of the preceding.
M. T. Smith, son of a licut.•colonel in the army.
J. G. Smyth, a lieutenant in the Yorkshire Hussars.
J. E. Taylor, has been a captain in the Dragoon Guards.
E. K. Tenison, held formerly a commission in the Dra-

goon Guards.
Sir F. Thesiger, "has been in the navy," according to

Dod.
J. Tollemache, son of an admiral.
J. Townsend, a captain in the navy (colleague of Sir R.
Peel).
Hon. G. R. Trevor, lieut.-colonel, commandant of the
Royal Carmarthen Fusiliers.
H. Tufnell, has been secretary to a First Lord of the
Admiralty (Minto).
Sir J. T. Tyrell, a colonel of militia.
Lord G. Vane, has a sister married to a colonel in the
army.
Sir W. Verner, a colonel in the army.
Sir H. Verney, son of a general, married daughter of an
admiral ; has been a major in the army.
Viscount Villiers, has three brothers captains in the
Guards.
B. H. Vyse, son of a colonel, himself a captain in the
Guards.
H. G. Ward, secretary to the Admiralty, an hereditary
inmate of the Admiralty-buildings, Whitehall.
J. L. 0. Vaughan, a colonel of militia.
Sir C. Wood, has been secretary to the Admiralty.

Grose for the prompt and energetic measures that he
took on seeing the condition of the swamped boat.
DEVONPORT, WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON.—We had
fine day yesterday, wind east, but it shifted in the night
to south-west and came on a gale, continuing till about
half-past three P.M. We have not had it blowing so
hard during the winter. About eight A.m. the brig
yacht Avienis, about 200 tons, belonging to a Mr.
Taylor, who has lately returned from the Mediterra-
nean, parted her moorings and went on shore under
Plymouth citadel, where she now is full of water. For-
tunately no lives were lost, but it is supposed she will
become a complete wreck. All else holds on.
WOOLWICH, MARCH I.—The Janus steam-vessel,
Lieutenant Commander Powell, left this afternoon for
Portsmouth and Gibraltar, and will have her compasses
adjusted to-morrow by Captain Johnson, who will pro-
ceed to Greenhithe for that purpose.
THE COURT.MARTIAL FOR THE Loss OF THE MU-
TINE.—The result of the court-martial on Lieutenant
Curtis, as senior and commanding officer of the Mutine,
when wracked, was, the Court finding, after a delibera-
tion of one hour and twenty minutes, that no blame was
attributable either to Commander Palmer or Lieutenant
Curtis, or the officers and crew under their command,
and acquitting them accordingly; and, further, express•
ing their high opinion of the merits and bravery shown
by Lieutenant Curtis and Mr. Maunder, the acting plas-
ter, under the trying circumstances in which they had
been placed.
The PRESIDENT then, addressing Commander Palmer,
said,—l have great pleasure in returning you your
sword.

The PRESIDENT then said—Lieutenant Curtis, I have
great pleasure in returning you your sword; and further,
I am requested by this Court to express their high
opinion of the skill, ability, and care shown by you under
the very distressing circumstances in which you had the
misfortune to be placed. May you long wear your sword,
Sir, and wield your command as faithfully and bravely in
the service of your Queen and country as you have
hitherto done.

Commodore Superintendent 11. Eden has returned
from leave of absence, and has resumed his duties at
Woolwich.

WHALE FISHERY IN THE ARCTIC

OCEAN.

The following, which appears in a Sandwich bland
paper just received, will be read with interest, not only
on account of its bearing on the whale fishery, but also
from the attention with which all late information from
the Arctic Seas is now regarded in consequence of the
uncertain fate of Captain Franklin:—
" The American whaling barque Superior, commanded
by Captain Roys, sailed from Sag-harbour to cruise in
the South Atlantic, but not being successful, Captain
Roys decided to carry out the plan of a voyage which he
had been contemplating for years. This plan em-
braced a cruise in the Arctic Ocean, through Behring's
Straits. He had collected what information he could
in regard to those regions, which had hitherto only
been visited by such adventurous navigators as Cook,
Clerk, Kotzebue, and Beechy. Captain Roys in-
forms us that the principal reason which induced
him to put away for that ocean was a remark which
be recollected to have read in "Beechy's Voyages," viz:—
Off here we saw a great many black whales, more than
I remember ever to have seen, even in Baffin's Bay.'
This remark is found in vol. 1 of Beechy's Voyages,"
page 379, and refers to 'lcy Cape,' situated in lat.
70 deg. 20 miles, and W, long. 162 deg. Captain Roys
has furnished us the following outline of his cruise in
the Arctic Ocean:—' I entered the Arctic Ocean about
the middle of July, and cruised from continent to conti-
nent, going as high as the let. 70 deg., and saw whales
wherever f went, cutting in my last whale on the 22d of
August, and returning through Behring's Straits on the
28th of the same month. On account of the powerful
currents, thick fogs, the near vicinity of land and ice,
combined with the imperfection of charts and want of
information respecting this region, I found it both diffi-
cult and dangerous to get oil, although there are plenty
of whales. Hereafter, doubtless, many ships will go
there, and I think some provision ought to be made to
save the lives of those who go there, should they be cast
away; they should not be left to perish among the In-
dians who inhabit these regions.'
" In conversation with Captain Roys we have obtained
additional information, which may not be uninteresting
to our readers. During the entire period of his cruise
there was no ice seen, the weather was ordinarily
pleasant, so that the men could work in light clothing.
In :most parts of the ocean there was good anchorage,
from 14 to 35 fathoms. During a part of the time that
the vessel was there she lay at anchor. The first whale
was taken at twelve o'clock at night I It was not diffi-
cult to whale' the whole 24 hours; so light was it that
at midnight it was easy to read in the cabin. The whales
were quite tame, but entirely different from any which
Captain Roys had ever before taken. He tock three
different species, one of the largest yielding 200 barrels
of oil. The first species math resembled the Greenland
whale, yielding abont 160 or 170 barrels; the second was
a species called Polar whale, a few of which have been
taken on the north-west coast; and the third, a small
whale peculiar to that ocean. The last three whales
which were taken yielded over 600 barrels."