The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-01 00:00:00

% "‘,
14-L*
_AAE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARSH` 1536.

justice anrelculptit.eheofcitybialtcourts, considerations of main importance
too thel.
ern pm!'
speech c,f the Right
argument-1 shall briefly
Corporations in Ireland.
them as; they present themselves :hfotreticoolunntry, and to the general cause of good
em:lelbßesighint cHonunue.ctFiornieuwdithhams
justly
general
h pa luls.iotni
01 only
yo noticef
tii
the
remarked that the number oyf those now existing is about
yparGdoevcieeirteitdetmot::_neetice any parts of the
Zlty.—( Hear.) There were ninety-five at the time of the
a t, .
si
be report
umrteehnpetoi
roctn
0,
or
fpt
uht
rbeayet i
uhaveCnsomobfme
iclsrosemi
louenuerdresduutovcrbiesodi d teeorosna
db
thesenoeutte sdicx
theut 3r,
Ur,. 'on, in the year 1800 ; but from causes which it is unim-
iNioorttta.:
inquiry
porations u.ith reference to two distinct periods in their his
tory, first, v:11 reference to the period which intervened be-
tween the reign of King Henry IL and the accession of King
James I. ; and, secondly, with reference to the period between
the accession of King James and the present time. Of the
ninety-five Corporations which existed in Ireland at the time
of the Legislative Union with England, eighty were created
by charters granted and dated after the accession of King
James the First (and in any statement I may make, in order
to prevent controversy, I shall take it for granted that the
statements in the report are accurate, and that it is the most
authentic document I can refer to for the matters of fact.)
Four claim to be governed by prescription, nine by earlier
charters than those dated in the reign of King James the
First, and two by Acts of Parliament. Fifteen, then, claim
to be governed by Government Acts other than the charters
ofJarnes the First, and eighty claim to be govermed by char-
ters dated shbsequent to the eceeealon (If King James the
First. The right Hon: llentleMan prOposed at the commence-
Molt liF his 'speech= to show that those Irish Corporations
foeoded by James the First hacl been planned upon a libaral
aPsl wPil-litsestpd av,:tam of government ; but he seems to have
omitted that part ot his speech which he intended to apply to
this subject. With respeet to those founded before the ao
cession of James the First,, I think my Right tio,n, Friend
1TA,414 fiR4 it diseiiit tq„ tiinlai,n ilAt the 'charters granted
in the curlier periotl oT ttw frisk liistciry wets granted with
the intention of snpperting the poplar piiinclple, but that they
were deeized in that unhappy period rather for the confirma-
tion of English power than for the good of the people. I
think the Hon. and Learned Member for DlAblill contended
on a former oceasios,; tel.. time wets same of earlier date,
sniff° WiiiPll Plaime4 tt:t he governed by prescription ; but I
think that the evidence in support of that view is very
vague end unsatisfactory, and I do not see any conclesive,
evlttenee whatgygr to prove that corporAtions existed In Ire-
:and earlier than the dake of the grants from the British Go-
vernment. I find that the first charter at all was a charter by
Henry thP Second, dated Dublin, in 1172, granting VI the
Bristol men 411 liberties pet free postoms 14 the port of
Dublin which they then enjoyed in the port of Bristol. I
admit 014 P OP Gar* charters had not the names of the
members o' the PnrAfir4tP betty; but that theft was another
form of election. But it appears, also, that at a very early
period the right to claim admittance became the subject
of restriction as the value of the privilege increased, and it
does not appetr that earlier than ,lamps I, irkhahhialloy was
ever oonsiuore4 a si4f4cierit plaitin for admittance into the cor-
poration, Then we come to the charters granted in the reign
of James I. The Right Hen: gentleman seems to eontend
that they were not, in point of fact, intended to maintain and
preserve Protestant ascendancy. My impression certainly
was, from some acquaintance with Irish history, that the esta-
blishment and objects of gorpergiellS at that epoch were
mainly for the support of Protestant interests.-s( Hear.) And,
to remove all doubt on that point, I shall hog to refer to an an-
thority more recent than that of Sir John Davies—that of Jas.
Moody and David Pigott, the Commissioners who inquired
into the Corpewation of Londonderry, who give an account of
the establishment of Corporations by James I, much more in
accordance with my own view. They say that in 1613 the
Irish Parliament was assembled, after a lapse of several years,
and that the creation of the forty Corporations constituted by
James 1., before 1613, appears plainly to have been to support
the interests of the Crown, and to give to the householders
' and free burgesses of the Corporations, or rather to the owners
of the soil, [Urea influence and power in the Legislature. They
were in fact close boroughs, exclusively Protestant, andsending
into Parliament a large body of new Members, whose presence
James required to control the party that were adverse to him.
It is for the House to see, on the showing of these
Commissioners, whether my view of them, namely, that
they were intended to be close boroughs, and for the
support of Protestant interests—is not borne out by the
facts. But, Sir, the preamble of this Bill certainly as-
sumes that these Corporations were all formed originally on
some enlightened principles of government, for it recites that
certain corporations bad been constituted in Ireland with the
intent that the same might remain yell regulated and quietly
conducted. Now, if this preamble had excepted the forty bo-
roughs of James the First, saying that these were originally
intended for the support of the Protestant interests, I think
that it would have approached nearer to the truth than by as-
suming that the corporations in question were originated on
enlightened principles of government. Sir, the truth is, that
this Bill (substitute any system you please) does amount to a
complete and unqualified destruction of the ancient corporate
bodies in Ireland.—( Hear.) I confess that it does seem to me
that the Right Hon. Gentleman, presenting a Bill to the
House that declares all laws, statutes, privileges, rules, orders,
and instructions now in force in the several boroughs enume-
rated in schedules A, B, and C, are inconsistent with, and
contrary to, the provisions of this Act, and are repealed and
annulled thereby—it dots seem to me, I say, that for a gentle-
man who presents such a Bill, gravely to get up, and pretend
a holy reverence for ancient corporations, and a horror at De-
structives, while he is accomplishing their destruction—(Hear)
—for, remembering the statutes of James, he has still his. own
Act, which abolishes all statutes, laws, privileges, rules, orders,
and instructions now in force—for him, I say, to pretend a
reverence for antiquity, and an abhorrence of the unheeding
hands which contemplate the destruction of the ancient
institutions he alludes to, does appear to me to savour some-
what mere of affectation than of truth.—( Hear, hear.) The
Bill, Sir, opera this most important question—can we maintain
the system as it exists ; or, if we cannot, shall an attempt he
spade partially-to reform it ? Shall we extinguish it altoge-
ther, substituting the plan of the Right Hon, Gentieman ; or,
after this extilu;sien, what provision shall we make for the per-
formance of those municipal duties which seem to have been
forgotten ? These considerations are opened bj the Bill of
the-Right Hon. Gentleman. Now, for myself, I affirm to
the House that f cannot expect to maintain the Corporate
system as it is, nor can I advise, by a partial alteration, that a
system shall be propped up which seems to me to be bad.i---
(Hoar, hear.) If you enlarge the circle of the freemen, and
cure some of the evils, still you would not overcome some of
the grave objections which apply to even the modified conti-
nuance of the system. I do admit that a system which pre-
sents such a limited number as 18,000 Members of Corpo-
rations out of a borough population of 800,000 or
900,000 is in itself a bad one ; but more particularly when I
find that the members of these corporations are almost entirely
of one religious persuasion, it aggravates the objection. The
mixing up of the administration of justice with party feeling
does, even if that administration be perfectly pure, create a
suspieLse against justice which is almost as fatal as the very
existence of kiestice would be. It will be evident then, that
with many of the oi4eations of the Right Hon, Gentleman I
entirely concur. There is wiothser objection which ho has
made se the present system, on the score of the misapplication
of corporate funds. Now lam as unwilling as be can be to
connect the party to which I belong with the vindication of
. the abuses of corporations. If I assume the facts stated to
be tsise—and I have not the means of ascertaining by docu-
ments whether those facts are well founded or not—but if
they arc true, I have no hesitation in at once saying that the
actual abuses of those funds ought to he corrected, and all ap-
prehension of their recurrence in future ptit an end to. I
have not one word to say against the fair conclusion to be
drawn from the argument of my Right Honourable Friend,
founded on the misapplication of corporate funds. Mrown
impres,:ion is, that the original intentions of the granters of
these properties must have been to devote them to the pur.
poses of the public, and not to the purposes of private indi-
viduals. But I have no hesitation in saying that on another
ground I cannot support the system of the corporations
in Ireland ab at present constituted ; and that is, that I
consider it to be inconsistent with the fair legislative prin-
ciple of the act of 1829. f think that the intention of that
Act was to establish as regards civil offices a perfect equality
between all classes of his Majesty's subjects.—( Cheers.) I
think that the ohjeat of that act was to make the civil worth of
the subject the test of his political qualification, and not his
religious opinions ; and therefore that if there be any system
wirich deprives the Roman Catholic of free and fair access to
'the privflazes of the corporations, while at the same time it
confers those twiyileges on his Protestant fellow-countrymen,
suer,
.7. system ought to be put an end to. Sir, en these
thet,,-:I
grounds on which this measure is proposed to
grounds, introduced,u ;Dust, I am bound to say, conclude that the
nds
,
change proposed to be Jude in the present corporation system
of Ireland is riot a wise one,--( Cheers.) The next considera-
tion to which I am led is, admiittua- the necessity for altera-
tion, as to what plan we should prepese for remedying the
evils of the present system, In the first place, sir, I shall take
into consideration the plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gen,
demolition of
for fifty sf
tleman—by his Majesty's Governmont ; and altloldecaainfasiarlyy
bisy,
that should I fall into mistake it wilt net be
hianstemlitioenoarl,thogr
proceed from any desire whatever on my part to misrepresent
the
fd franchise of 5/. In
measuret
he statementswmeasure.h ich he
ehAibfctahes
After,
,Ini
te
rsoßidri
ug,
ehet
providing
nHon. Gy
we
tnbfhi
stuyelbrenmitashmaene
Right
our
Gen-
tlemantt existinghoewnsteor,
4se7t s
_co ri.rwpprhoeirveahitdi oei
tsn corporations,
ipvetehasiealßi Bill Itiaognaft
gives a corporation to Middleton, the pepu_
point of
Ipat4op,ufolartiiotn it does not proceed upcol theT2Q:basis
ce:
:no
inhabi-
tant ahtt
bhlai
iiie.si
• and to Belturbut, which contains a poonlation of no more than
lotion existing
which amounts only to 2,034 inhabitant householders,
2,326 inhabitant householders. In theseggot,
consistßili establishes
o f
n Mayor thantntdbefognorelterindmererunteno!
and eac h
twelve Corp
although the population of neither 'pixel)
tent householders.—( Hear, bear.) The i3iii also gives, Sir,
so the Lord Lieutenant a power specially to grant a pqrprira.
a any town under certain circumstances, without refe-
rence toi the number of the population ; and this I must call it,
most
extraordinary pscesision, like most of the others which
this Bill contains, varies not ontiy fi verd s„ but in many other
mess important respects, from the proysssona oil :40 gnolisb
Bill.-4 Hi eat,' hear') The English Bill provides that_ ir the
major part of the inlitabitaysts of a town petition the Kit 4 to
give them a Corporatism, his ltiajesty, if he shall think fit,
of Itip pro-
may s
pcho
narditenrg, andpri
ntc:bisi,e 1. rish4
uip, ill
ir,
;3:y
.1,,,,i
r.• pro-
y number,
vm seededi s
ia yo
ng r ai
()non t
Itthhiimori;i4
nglish Az ill:--=-
of the inhabitants of a ow 11„1 fiplipd ma Petition the
to which I have alluded, as'e-
Lord Lieutenant, and even two ,Or l'ir,ee of them may evoke
e gas respect.
t\hvebyp,owtherisveisstead
dioirethete Kdeinpagr'
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman says that the Abject
stutepfrreomspottabtiseveci

of the Government is by meal ("his-Bill to valt one uniform
system into operation in -all the Corporate towns in Ireland.
Be it so, but I should like to know where is the necessity for

encumbering towns like the two which I have selected, towns
the population of which do not greatly exceed 2,000, with
such a ponderous means of managing their domestic concerns
as those which this Bill proposes?—(Loud cheers.) There
are 126 towns which will be entitled to incorporation under
this Bill ; but if any other town having 1,000 inhabitant
householders wishes for a charter, the Lord Lieutenant is to be
at liberty to incorporate it. Sir, according to this Bill, each
Corporation is to be so constituted as to have the power of
making its own by-laws for its own rule and good government.
These by-laws are required to have the sanction of the Lord
Lieutenant ; but there does not appear to be any provision in
'the Bill that they are not to be at variance with the law of the
land. It is important that they should be consistent with the
law of the land; but on this point the Bill is wholly silent. I
am quite ready to admit that there is no necessity that the by-
laws of each Corporation should be in exact conformity with
those of the others. On the contrary, I think they m:y have
different by-laws, and that offences against those by-laws may
be tried before the corporation justices. At present, in each
town the Mayor is a justice of the Peace for the borough as
well as a county Magistrate, and one of the complaints of the
report is. that the Justices are wholly independent of the con-
troul of the Town Council. Sir, by the Bill the Corporate
Justices will be wholly independent of the Lord Lieutenant,
inasmuch as they will hold their offices without his sanction.
—(Hear, hear.) When I say this I think lam accurately
describing the Bill. In those towns which are counties of
cities, the Town Council, it is proposed, shall have the election
of sheriffs placed in their hands. The Right Hon. Gentleman
says, that the Lord Lieutenant will still have power to grant
to each borough a separate commission of the peace. That
reight do in England, but it will not in Ireland. —( Hear. )
ofA the TownseparatecommissionCouncil
; b
is only
this I
nlyto be
mustgr say is
antedonmtohset dimispperruetieorn,
for surely the Lord Lieutenant has better moans of judging
whether such a course be necessary than the Town Council
can possibly have.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In those towns to
which a separate commission of the peace might be granted,
you should recollect that the Town-clerk, who is also to be
Clerk of the Peace, and the Sheriff, are to be elected by the
Town Council, It will, of course, be the duty of these
parties-to summon juries in 'the corporate towns with which
they are connected, and, that being the case, I shall, Sir,
attempt at least to show that this Bill, even if established
will not conduce much to the impartial administration of public
justice, or a wholesome state of municipal government. Sir,
I shall first take the administration of justice. The Right
Hon. Gent. asks—" Where is the man who will get up and
say that the same principles should not be extended to Ireland
which have been applied to England and Scotland ?" but he
has failed to show that the particular systems existing in Eng-
land and Scotland would conduce to impartiality, would be
satisfactory, or in any way tend to increase public confidence in
those functionaries by whom the law is administered in Ireland.
( Cheers.) Sir, against any such conclusion I shall cite the
authority of the Right Hon. Gent. himself: Now, what did
the Right Hon. Gent. say.? Why, that if he thought the
effect of this measure would be to transfer power from one
party into the hands of another he would be found is the
ranks of its most determined and active opponents. By this
declaration he threw away the whole of his argument of
analogy, for must he not well know that the devolution of
political power rests upon grounds perfectly distinct from the
administration of justice.—(Cheers.) But I will try your
principles of Municipal Reform. Let us look to them
as far as relates to the administration of justice—so far
as relates to the efficiency of the civil power by the
administration of the police—and so far as relates to the ma-
nagement of the corporate bodies themselves. I shall, Sir, in
the first place, take the administration of justice. The Right
Hon. Gentleman asserts that the imperfections in the adminis-
tration of justice, and the great dissatisfaction and excitement
concurrently arising out of the exclusive nature of the govern-
ment of Corporations, will all be done away with by introdu-
cing a system of popular election. Popular election, he says,
will remove all the evils of the system ; but although I admit
that popular election may operate as a check upon a great va-
riety of abuses, I deny that the administration of justice,
should be left to depend upon any such principle, or that po-
pular choice in such a matter would be productive of anything
like satisfaction to the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Sir,
under this Bill there were to be three classes of Corporations.
In towns which are counties of cities the Sheriff is to be elec-
ted by the town council, and in other corporate towns the
same body are to have the election of the clerks of the peace.
In both these instances these are the parties on whom the sum-
moning of juries—grand and petit juries—is to devolve, while
the other corporate towns are to be subject to the same law
which is applicable to counties where the juries are summoned
by the sheriff. In the last-mentioned instance there is to be no
distinction in this respect between corporate towns and towns
which are not corporate. Let us, however, look to the re-
port, and see whether the same arguments of corruption which
have been used against the officers of the old Corporations,
may not equally apply to the new. The Report says—" That
the Sheriffs appointed by the Municipal Corporations possess
and exercise important functions in reference to the admini-
stration of justice, both civil and criminal ;" and that " a large
proportion, frequently the majority, of the Grand Jurors is
empannelled from the members of the governing corporate
bodies—an arrangement which, as these bodies are at pre-
sent constituted, practically vests and preserves in limited cor-
porate Councils the extensive powers of local taxation given
by law to the Grand Juries." This, then, being an imper-
fection that is the groundwork of all complaints, will it, I
should like to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman, be re-
medied by making the corporate sheriff the object of popular
election ? Why, Sir, what would the consequence of such a
system be ? Would you not have those towns in a state of dis-
cord and confusion, arising out of religious difference and po-
litical animosity, during the period of the annual elections of the
mayor and the other corporate officers ? The registration, too,
would occasion fresh scenes of excitement and disorder, and
thus the whole year might be spent in getting ready for the
proceedings of a popular election. (Cheers, and " No, no.")
Even after this election new scenes of discord would arise ;
and if that were the case, could any one believe that, in a town
convulsed in the way I have described, justice can be adminis-
tered with anything like satisfaction ? For my part, Sir, I
think not, and for this simple reason I disapprove of this part
of the measure.—(Cheers.) Oh, but the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman says, the change he proposes would put an end to the
intimate connection which at present exists between corpora-
tions and Grand Juries. Would it ? Popular centroul may
be very well in some things, but as the sheriff, under the new sys
tern, would be elected by the town council, I can see no good
reason why you should 'disturb the connection subsisting be-
tween the corporations and the Grand Juries. Sir, the Right
Hon. Gent. says that political opinion should not be a ground of
challenge; but I should like to know whether his Bill will ren-
der all Grand Juries hereafter free from political bias, espe-
cially when their return must depend more upon their being
partisans than on account of their impartiality. Surely, if a
sheriff returns only men of his own political opinions, that ought
to be a ground of disqualification.—( Cheers.) But the Right
Hon. Gentleman has brought forward the case of the fisher-
men of Limerick. These fishermen, he says, infringed the
rights of the Corporation of that town ; homicides were in
consequence committed, and the Jury, acting with a view to
the maintenance of the corporate rights, actually acquitted
the officers of the Corporation, and convicted the fishermen ;
but will he tell me how this Bill takes away corporate rights,
or interferes beneficially with the administration of justice ?
If it does not do this, I should like to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman what security it gives against the perversion
of justice of which he complains ?—( Loud cheers.) So
much, then, for the administration of justice. Now, Sir, I
will tell the House what my proposal is, and for that purpose
I will take the case of counties, of cities, and towns. I say,
at once, that I should place the nomination of the sheriffs for
such places in the same hands in which the nomination of
sheriffs of counties at present rests. The veto on the nomi-
nation of sheriffs proposed to be given to the Lord Lieu-
tenant under this Bill is a most clumsy affair. It is, in fact,
dividing the responsibility between the mayor and the Lord
Lieutenant, and, in short, precluding the Lord Lieutenant
from all interference, unless, indeed, where a man has
been guilty of some gross offence or violation of political
opinion.—( Loud cheers.) Is it not obvious that such a state
'of things might bring the Lord Lieutenant and the Town
Council into most disagreeable conflict ? The better way,
I do submit, would be to devolve the appointment
altogether upon the Lord Lieutenant, In whom the adminiss
tratiun of justice should alone
sbuechveinstsepde.cto:elsßeauantodlinfrneistshitderiantaltioimughais,t
Hon. Gentleman is of a different opinion why does be not ap-
ply his own principle with respect to the nomination of dis-
trict Judges ?—( Cheers.) Let us now take the administra-
tion of the civil power in the constitution of the pollee. I
presume the Right Hon. Gentleman will repeat his defiance—
will ask whether " any man would get up and say that the
same principles which governed the 'police of England and
Scotland should not also be made applicable to the police of
Ireland, and that unless that were done the people of Ireland
would not only be insulted, but would have impartial justice
denied to them.—( Cheers.) If he does, here is my answer.
What Las the Right Hon. Gentleman done during the pre-
sent session? Why, he ha; brought in a which provides
for the consolidation of the whole laws relating to the con-
stabulary force of Ireland ; which Bill is not only at va-
riance with that which he now represents as sound in policy,
but in direct contravention of his own acts, which prove
that he is at all events jealous of the local authorities so
powersharece,
oi
thatt e
‘vo fyhoaii
Itustoh
te!aaeoprivie: police iaecalrn iebigseattlfeei
monntr
far as the police are cioneerned.—(Cheers.) By this
f
Bill it is clear that the municipal authorities are not
butto havetbat aand in
pgt
tishethhisandasgaoinfstthetheLomrdagListierautteesnan.
which to
create! Doe; It net go the length obfso l
tl t sayingeyou power couldover
the
The Bill to
policetchoen ifirdreeicinnomtthhineeemnilaaontriddo,nthsh,ieebriueittfeonvrea.estttht:Litey(oacahweeilrls, )
which
abwbybi ietehcihi alludesblyßtißill in
inapthphaoesi
nbiltuarntnedj
nus
ts beenotorf
th e ionrtde d
Lieutenant, Rvet 'Ypo,wtheor is eel_
was necessary to insure the preservation of the peace is placed
gistrates to mauve the unity of the aygtem. Now, sir, I say,
if the principle of this Bill be good, why establish in 126 towns
a separate police, not only to be differently paid, but appointed
by different persons, as for instance the Watch Committee?—
•
tc(ll°Canhniceeetristae.ot°l
t'oititlett 4111 ;eft' oseerldlt-fb,bl.:attinhatdbetehnlr!wial4r; icikt.urPa:°lril:inahb‘eiv6foellrse:ltsblioeinmns satisfactorily
ea
cLut.yr.
proved , , two plans,
one of wit!C4t 'a 0 utter nriunP thm eikeers.)
exclude, Py the
,ight on. Cientie ants oWn'ghoWini, from'
the Objects of ihe"munic al giordrnment- What' he 'Proposes,
the administration of the laW arid the charge of the' police,
for with respect to thieso matter's the toWe councils are to
have neither interference nor contrcul.—
, /jeer, heir.) With
respect tc the presentations by the Grand Aides, the Might

'‘•;

ftivian Gentleman's argument was anything but convinc-
ing. et ok the instance of Cork. The cess in the county of
Cork, he says, is only 10d. per acre, whereas in the county of
the city, which is within the jurisdiction of the Corporation, it
amounts to ss. or 6i. an acre, and this fact, he adds, has
created very great dissatisfaction. But what effect hid Bill
will have in removing such grievance I am at a loss to conjec-
ture. The Mayor, Town Clerk, and Treasurer are to be paid
out of the borough funds. The Town Councils are to be em-
powered to apportion, not only their salaries, but those of the
other officers by whom the Act is to be carried into execution.
Here then is copious patruna,.!.e carved out for his Majesty's
Ministers, and at no inconsiderable expence.—( Cheers.) The

Right Hon. Gentleman has alluded to. Corponition property,
and says what is meant to be done with it. Now that is a sub-
ject which I too have considered. The Corporation property
of Ireland is by no means extensive, the total amount being,

I believe, somewhere about 61,3971., and the present expense
57,2791. The debts upon this property were about 130,000/.
If we deduct that which belongs to the Corporation of Dublin,
the amount of the other Corporation property of Ireland does
not exceed 33,000/. per annum, while the expenses are
27,0001., and the debts 10,000/.' This was the amount of the
Corporation property of Ireland, exclusive of Dublin, and it
consisted of lands and tolls. By this Bill you vest the amount
of the existing tolls in the Corporation Board ; but, and very
properly I admit, you deprive them of all power over those
tolls where they are affected by debts.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
Under the provisions of the present Bill you propose to vest
the management of the tolls in the Corporations. It appears
to me that it would be much better and much more conducive
to the advantage of the public that you • should, on the dissolu-
tion of the present Corporations, abolish tolls altogether.

With respect to the management of the tolls for the fresent,
it would be a convenient course that at the dissolution of the
present Corporations their management should be placed in
the hands of a Commission, to be appointed by Parliament;
that it should be the duty of this Commission to inquire into
the right of the tolls held by individuals ; what claims such in-
dividnals might have to compensation ; and that they should
be instructed to lay before Parliament their report upon this
subject. But vi ith respect to the right of tolls held by Cor-
porations, I think that their abolition, where it could be effected
without inconvenience, would materially tend to improve the
commerce and extend the trade of the city or tom-I,in which
the abolition might take place. Now let me enliven the te-
diousness of a debate of this kind by reading for you an
account of the mode in which these tolls are collected in

[reland, as given in # portion of the evidence taken before

the Commissioners.—Ole Right Honourable. Baronet pro-
ceeded to read from a paper which he held in his hand an
account of the mariner in which the toll collectors proceed to
exact the tolls. It was to this effect : —The toll collector
stands at the gap or place of entrance and exit to the fair or
market. A book or Bible is placed at the gap or at the ditch
side near the gap. Each particular person who passes through
the gap in charge of cattle is asked by the toll collector and
his assistant to clear the cattle, that is to declare that the
cattle have not been sold. If the cattle have not been sold, the
person in charge of them touches the book, which is considered
equivalent to an oath. Sometimes, however, in spite of the
resistance of the toll collector, the persons in charge of the
cattle force them through the gap, and escape without having
either paid the toll or touched the book. ]—( Laughter. ) On
the part of the Corporations, for the sake of extending their
utility, and for the general benefit of the public, it is exceed-
ingly desirable that these tolls should be put an end to. I am
quite convinced that there is no arrangement which you
could make respecting this part of your measure which
would be more satisfactory to the public, or more likely
to conduce to the very considerable advantage of those
places in which the tolls are now collected. If it be found
that the effect of the abolition of these tolls be to improve
the commerce of the place, to relieve industry from
any injurious pressure, and, by removing impediments
to intercourse, to attract and increase beneficial intercourse
with those places, I say, then, by all means put an end to them.
—( Cheers.) If individual rights stand in the way of effecting
these improvements I think that it would be an excellent ap-
plication of any surplus of the corporation property which
could be spared from the general municipal purposes to pur-
chase those individual rights, and facilitate the concession of
advantage and benefit to the public.—( Cheers.) If. a surplus
of the corporation funds be ascertained to exist, such surplus
ought to be applied to some purposes connected with the inte-
rests of the town, or city, or locality, where such funds may
exist. I would, however, as I have already suggested, vest
this property ad interim in the hands of Commissioners, to be
appointed by the Crown. To. those Commissioners I would
give the power to take an extensive view of the character, the
institution, and the application of this property, and I would
afford these Commissioners the fullest facilities to enable them

to report fully to Parliament. In cases where portions of
this property were placed under engagements for debt, it
would, df course, be necessary so to proceed as that those
engagements should not be interfered with, but I would cer-
tainly altogether remit those tolls in all cases where no en-
gagements exist.—( Hear, hear.) I would• not contemplate
that this Commission should exist as a permanent Com-
mission. I would merely appoint such Commission ad
interim, until a final disposition of these funds should
be determined on by Parliament. Now, in adverting to
the Commission the appointment of which I have suggested,
I think that it is a great matter of doubt whether these
Commissioners would not be able to recover more of the pro-
perty, and whether they would not act as effectually for its se-
curity as any town council that may possibly exist under the
provisions of the nature you propose.—(Cheers.) Now with
respect to the charge of the police and the administration of
justice, I certainly do not concur with you in the propriety of
giving this, in the several municipalities, to the town councils.
I certainly cannot concur with you in the expediency or the
propriety of re-establishing a power of this description in the
hands of the Councils. I never can persuade myself that it can
be conducive to the efficacy of the civil power that it should
be placed under the management of particular and local
bodies. I certainly think that the Crown is the fittest to
select those who may be chosen to administer the civil power,
and in whose charge the administration of the police is to
rest. lam perfectly prepared to go with you in the'remaaal
of all abuses. No person is more ready to conch; in the
correction of all abuses to the fullest extent, and to promote
all reforms and improvements that I conceive to be beneficial.
—((;heers.) I am willing that you should intrust to the
town councils anything connected with the local Govern-
ment, without any interference with that portion of the civil
power which is more properly placed under the direct control
of the general Executive of the country.—(Hear.) I know
that there was a Bill which was represented to be exceedingly
popular in Ireland—the Right Hon. Gentleman cpposite seems
to anticipate what lam going to say—l know that there was
a Bill proposed some time ago, in which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite—(being unable to see the Treasury Bench we
did not perceive to whom the Right Hon. Baronet at the time
adverted)—had embodied some plan for the abolition of tolls.
(Hear.) The preamble of that Bill recited that the abolition
of tolls would be of great advantage to the prosperity and
tranquillity of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman re-
collects the Bill to which I allude. If the speech of the Right
Hon. Gentleman be satisfactory to hit own mind,
he certaialy
must feel that it is unwise that there should be a rest;. inte-
rest in all corporate property. Yet the presen's Bill pro-
poses, notwithstandieg all the admitted advantage of the abo-
lition of corporate tolls, to vest these tolls in the new Cor-
porations, The Right Hon. Gentittnan knows that there is
all Act In operation in Ireland sit the present time, which is
esteemed a very popular enactment, aeas Which is based upon
the principle of popular election. 'The Right Hon. Gentle-
man has admitted than any elections that have taken place un-
der this Act have been totally free from all political excite-
ment, and all disturbance from party feeling. The Right
Hon. Gentleman has fairly described the operation and the
proviSions of this Bill, but he has omitted to mention one'par-
tieular. It is this, namely, that if any twenty-one hothebold-
era inhabiting houses of 201. a year annual value shall agree
to apply for the extention of this Act to the town where they
reside, directions shall be issued by the Lord Lieutenant for a
meeting of the inhabitants to decide upon the propriety of
adopting this Act. At this meeting all inhabitant household-
ers of 51. and upwards shall have a right to vote, and the re-
sult to be decided by the majority. In case the Act be
adopted, Commissioners to carry the provisions of the Act
into operation arc to be appointed by the election of the ma-
jority of those qualified to vote. These Commissioners no',
to be less in slumber than ten, nor more than tv;enty-
two, slidto continue in nlllee for three years. These
Commissioners have sins power of appointing a treasurer,
clerks, and other officers, but the Act gives them no ju-
dicial powers whatever. Any penalties may he recovered
before, a Magistrate of the town or county ; but in this re-
spect the Commissioners have no power whatever. They Eave
not in any way the slightest power or connection in any shape
with the administration of justice. It gives to them simply
the power of providing for the watching and cleansing of the
town, The Bill of the Noble Lord goes to supersede this
Act, and it entirely takes the watching and lighting out of the
hands of those appointed under its provi,iions. The Bill of
the Noble Lord provides that all this shall in future be per-
formed under some general and equal principle. To this I
would not altogether object, unless in towns where an ade-
quate provision for these purposes already existed ; but cer-
tainly in towns where you find effectual provisions for these
purposes, and which effectually provide for the expenses which
these purposes necessarily demand, I think it unreasonable to
interfere or place these localities under additional and unne-
cessary expense. Now, with respect to this provision for the
establishment of the police foace, I certainly think that there
you ought to esjablish a force which will be perfectly uniform in
its system, and which will be established upon a general and
conaistent principle. Who not do as you have done here ? Does
the Right Honourable Gentleman mean to say that the
police force which you appoint to preserve the peace by day
is not sufficient to perform the duties of watching by
night Hear; hear, hear.) This was exactly what we
did in Landon and Westminster. We made the same force
answer both objects, and we found the experiment to be at-
tended with the most eminent success. Another Bill of a
similar description has been proposed for Dublin, and it has
been found expedient to assimilate the police force there to the
police %see here, and to make the same force 404ervient to
the purposes of discharging the duties of a day and a night
police. In this way you.giv,s Vac, ioree consistency, and in-
crease its utility n 4 Kimet-icy. Now, let the ask if this sys-
tem vhi9,ll i have described be fousd beneficial in its sikia.xat'sen
for' London and Dublin, why should it not l ealually so for
Belturbut and Middleton? TIAQ lad, V.ll ic propose I will
very briefly recapitulate 7, think i have already sufficiently in-
dicated pliticiple on' which it is founded. As I have said
befticado not propose to vindicate the existing core,or,ate sys-
tem. With respect to the existing' tCRA cosanoils, do think
that if they are to be pttai cridtt9,
it is not desirable that other
tovin 'ocktinekis should be eattibliiatied. In the present state of
Ireland, tVink woo, 4be most prej,ndiciatl to allow any in-
terferetice with the a(chninistration of justice to bodies chosen
by the election provided for under this Bill, I think that the

v4V %.

ohe
t
corporate property ought in all cases to be applied to local
purposes, in so far as that it may be made to Contribute t
bu
utmost in promoting the general benefit of the locality ;
have already stated that I do not think it necessary or e.xps
dient that the administration of that property should ba placed
in the hands of a town council. Instead of placing the
election
elec-
tion of civil Magistrates upon the principle of popular
in the counties of cities and counties of towns, I would enable
as
the Crown to appoint those Magistrates in the same
way
Yher
t
the Crown appoints Sheriffs in counties. I would altoge
abolish Courts of minor jurisdiction of the description of
Manor Courts, Caurts Leet, Seneschal Courts, and all Courts.
of similar minor jurisdiction. Whilst I would do this I would,
propose to extend the jurisdiction of the Assistant Barristers'
Court so as to a great extent increase the efficiency of that
species of tribunal. In counties of towns I would maintat
the administration of the law as it exists. I would permit the
continuance of Recorders upon the same principle as the As-
sistant Barristers' Court. I would also propose to establish in
the different towns a Court for the recovery of small debt!,
which I am of opinion would be gladly hailed by persons in
trade and by persons generally resident in the Corporate town!,
and which would be found highly convenient and beneficial•
Why, then, not apply your experience of the advantage of such a;
species of jurisdiction as I have mentioned to the improvement
your Bill ? Now, with reference to the Bill for the extension
of the Assistant Barristers' Court, an attempt was mate to im-
prove the constitution of that Court. Why not employ a
jurisdiction of a similar character under the provisions of the
present measure ? I have more than once stated that lam
favourable to the removal of every inferior tribunal, assuming
that its functions would be better administered by the higher
tribunal; but if, by any amended system, you coLld give to
the inhabitants of the large towns at least some easy mean'
of recovering small debts, you would be conferring upon them
a very great and satisfactory benefit. After some further ob-
servations, the Right Hon. Baronet continued—l am aware
that in any plan of this nature a great number of minor de-
tails arc necessary. lam aware that some members of cor-
porations fill the offices of trustees of markets and superin-
tendents, and Commissioners for the management and reel"
lotion of harbours, and other similar objects. These, however'
are matters so entirely of minor detail, that I do not purpose
to enter upon them now. However, there is no serious dittl"
culty in the adjustment of these minor details. The House
cannot hare sufficient experience of those matters to render it, '
expedient to enter into any discussion of them upon a secant'
reading of the Bill. There are some important privileges under
this Bill which are different from those which are given under the
English Bill. This Bill provides that the common counA
appointed under this Act shall have the power to inspect all
accounts, books, vouchers, papers, documents, &e., relating V)
the accounts of Commissioners, trustees, or other bodies,
boards, or persons, holding any office connected witia the re-
gulation of the corporation or the borough, or any part thereof,
or the port or harbour thereof, and so on ; and that all do;
cements shall be open to the inspection of the said council'
and it gives a summary jurisdiction to the town councils le
cases where this power is not sufficiently obeyed. The re-
port of the Commissioners on which this measure is founded, ,
states that the case of the commercial interests and the gene-
ral interests of a town or borough will properly belong to a
town council, and that those duties which are now exer-
cised by voluntary associations for the protection of particular
interests will naturally devolve upon the town councils. Note
in many places the commercial interests are at present. Or
the most part, watched over by voluntary association",
such as Chambers of Commerce. In. certain case s, too,
the functions of the Harbour Commissioners will, of course"
devolve upon the town councils. Now, with respect to the
duties at present performed by these voluntary association',
experience is necessary to enable those duties to be
performed with advantage. These voluntary associa-
tions are, of course, formed to' watch over part'.
cular interests. In each case the knowledge of the Pe"
culiar interests of a particular class is necessary for the
purposes of discharging the duties of the Harbour Commis'
sioners. Those are generally chosen who have the most expo'
rience of the shipping interest, and so in all other similar eases;
and it certainly appears most objectionable that the care of the
interests of those parties should be taken out of their orte
hands and placed at the disposal of the town council. It seen,'
to me most strange and irreconcilable to any sound principle
that the exercise of functions connected with commerce 81101111'
be taken from those interested, and placed in the hands of $
town council elected under the provisions of this Dill. I have
stated the objections that I entertain to this measure. I have
,t
stated that I differ from you with respect to the appointment
of town councils. I differ from you with respect to placing
the administration of justice under the jurisdiction of these
separate bodies. I differ from you with respect to placing the
police under the controul of these bodies. I have proposed
plan totally exempt from those objections, and certainly calcite
lated to render the administration of justice much more Otis"
factory. I admit that we are bound to apply to the Govern";
ment of Ireland, in all respects, the principle of perfect are;
complete civil equality. I admit that the operation of ftbs
principle of civil equality should always extend to the profes-
sors of all religious creeds in that country without distinction;
I am ready to say, that before the law, all parties and creed
are equal. I think that the administration of justice should e'"
tend equally to all persons ; but I think that the administr?-
tration of justice will neither be improved nor facilitated by
the measure you propose. Our objection is not to assitaila7
the system in Ireland with that of England—but our olAject 10
to ascertain on what principle equal privileges and e0.,,a1 law°
can be most effectually and successfully applied.—(
continued cheering.) However you may theoris, _whatever
aalwes—freyeto.u—s(hGoureldat see that
)y o uI ef a rroytt t
you may say of your theoretic principle of equal' rights an
pcegrau:tii el Pt? a mode
of election that shall give anti
a preponderance to one Pa'Y'
effectually exclude the other, call you that equal law ? D° Y-tt
carry out your principle of placing ad men equal if you esta;
blish a mode of election that shall tend to give all influeneeitta
one party, to the complete prejudice of the other.—(Lo'
cheers.) Ido not put the question upon any religious gill,
whatever. If the effect of your measures be to exclude
Protestants, not as Protestants, but as politicians--if you eft: `f:
tually give the predominance to one party, and place the adr°ll
nistration of justice in the hands of that dominant r.'srtY":tit
care not what name you give the principle that does this---41.0
if it be calculated to work injustice, and prejudice the inte;,,
of one party, whilst it advances the other, it is not a pr'
n"
of equal justice, arid equal law.—(Loud cheering:li
The necessary effect of elections on the principle of this 13; laa
must be to produce a continual recurrence of angry polit.t'sche
strife. One party will be in constant contention with the
other, other, and the people will be exposed to a state of constant fle_.t
pernicious excitement. I care not 17 whom this exeitenle;.
is administered, whether by landlord., by Priest, or by clatg
gogue, or any other description ot: persons. If I see You brit-ty
forward a measure calculated to inflict injury upon one Pa' a
on the pretence of doing je.atice to all, I have aright to clonal,
that you shall not inflict that injury. Will airy one attempt
eit
say that in the election of the members of a Town CO'° if
oud
party an
.',l political motives will not interfere ?—( Cheers.) A
establish a b it; c :121:10
they do interfere--if elections take place, not with regi"-nos
to religious but with reference to political opinions—will
the evil bees great; and is it right that you should establispia,
system liable to evils of this pernicious character ? Now, 1.00
it be denied that the municipal elections which have ta'
place in Ungland have been influenced by strong political an f
party feeling? On this subject I will quote the expression!
a very distinguished Member of this House, and a very Ile
authority on a subject of this nature. On the first day of t,j
session the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin alludta
to the elections of Municipal Town Councils which l's.,
taken place in England in these terms :—" The sore is festellio
ing in your hearts. You now regret the victories which t
Reformers have gained in the elections of the Town COnet
oils that have taken place in England. You know tb
la
these Town Councils will become excellent normal sate°
of agitation."--(" Hear," and cheers from the Oppositioe',
Now, if this description given by the Hon. Member be trrt
as respects the elections in Engle nd, is it at all unlikely ~e
the Corporations in Ireland rwill be similar in all these izo
spects ?—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet proceed:llo
read the passage more fully ; it was to this effect e,
English people have._ received an instalment of popular rePro
sentatiort in their Corporation Reform, and right well ba,oo
they used it. You have reason to reeret the result; )the
'eel the sore festering in your hearts." And, referring te, 00
return of a majority of Reformers iu the late elections 01, ,e
Corporations, the expression was Every one of
town councils will become normal schools of agitation.,bG
that be true with respect to England, so you think it will
°t,
ri
false with respect to Ireland ?—(Cheers.) Have %se to
then, a right to protest against this measure, which got's of
place the administration of justice and the superintentlence,.„
the civil power of the country into such hands as the?' • f
(Loud cheers.) Ido not believe in the beneficial tent)ellt;
a measure which will only give rise to more scenes of s'l
tion.—_( Loud cheers.) We concede to you the full justic,ssi
your demand for equal rights and equal privileges. NST("gI
that there should be no distinction and this is what I den"
on the part of those in whose behalf I speak. I think t)
their rights and privileges should be proteeted.--(Pheew
In compliance with the opinions of Parliament, and in 'lto
once to the wishes and in anticipation of the commands 0' re,
Crown, those connected with associations which were °Prof
tented as likely to interfere with the harmony and good naOf
of society, dissolved those associations, and, at the bazar on'
c considerable sacrifices, recommended a similar course of tree
duct to men who, unable to reason and to discover the ner•
motives of those by whom this advice was given, mi,,ebt'4,illl
haps, look upon those from whom that advice proceeded this
jealousy and alienation. At the risk of such sacrifices ioe'
advice was given, and those persons were recommended to
and
mediately retire from all connexion with these associations, ,ss
to dissolve them.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) Thilitain
the course which good subjects, anxious and willing to noaf.leis it
the laws, and to bow to the first authority of the Crowe, 1.15
their duty to pursue. We now call upon you to Wore
equal laws and equal rights. We call upon you not ter,/ rt 7
upon us a measure which must inevitably produce the very to
suit, which the Right Hon. Gentleman professes so ine-sclw
deprecate, namely, the ascendancy of one party, and the etiy---
sion of another.--(Loud (sheering.) We ask you earn.e.se,.to
we ask you with cor,fidenee in your feelings of justitdition
consider this measure with reference to the peculiar coll. ,„,es
-
of Trebel, and with reference to the peculiar state 9' root
pidiy, and the peculiar circumstances of society, inr coo
country.—(Cheers.) If you have any regard to 37°,% coo'
doctrines, if—_,and I do not sec how you can avoid t°
oduco
elusion-4f these annual elections are calculated to Pr Cory
sych baleful effects, I entreat of you to pause before ruoce9
sent, to this measure—(Chcers)--as you value religiousiPiore.
as you value eual laws and ,as you value the security ,
grity of this great empire, not to sanction by your allt'!"..,_tbs
sl,ceitY of
not to sanction by the legislative and moral au. • ose ,
establishment in Ireland of normal schools for the puiPntiouel.
teaching the science of agitation.—(Loud and COroy
cheers.) I demand of you, then, respectfully but_
0_a,;000
demand of you, not to establish in reland those grand

I , .
. .
' • .
. % . .
HOUSE OF COMMON--S. -11."'
. •
• THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, MARCH 1, 1836,
ON RAILWAYntedto BinglLuirLeSn,CoOthNelbAelsltTmT3dEeEs.by
Bdi niiis ge
hyoßarffiegiecerottf:t h e tyimposed u p o n t h e m
they have
atvhee formedH ou se, yi
no
tuor
...7------------••----
Some specific at;t-'-I"F".--'—'"----='-=--.-"---------------------------'---''°oregone conclusion,' it would ap-
has reparelt
em referred, and have agreed to the fol-
PbPeo.afforded to the House' on the different
uant to the Order of the House, exa-
, .....-
e tools in which th-7-------e chief professors of the science of agita- ab e out of the consolidated fund, but a few watchmen, to be It was on the occasion of the debate on the repeat question. through the country.-(Loud cheers.) • Are not our clergy '"
tepclirebiceptiiliodin.lv
t:3l. wnt". be made the chosen instruments for wielding the paid out of the funds of the corporation.-(Hear.) The Right His Right Hon. Friend's words were as follow-[The designated as surpliced ruffians? are not their followers re-.
c,P,aehs.a..eir.ct,hhhielal.ed
meantbpeen tcoomreelyot,o,alnbnnuootrusdneehereattthhthaeattglwricoaus(nAdtishr.eofcsaoccrmegumesaainttttieolenveuiiionpdugoeli
'1: hmw REPORTh. 1
nice di 1 eti cnhtfe
oCinr omam,
at mtt
ei
ori tntt
oe
~ e.
at
nhpa
tal proposed to
civil force in the dispensation of public justice. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read a few words from
.A.e.t 9th Noble Lord read the passage to the following effect] :- presented as banded assassins? and are not the rePresenta-
might
hctoldlettsrepeteec.et
pi
hfirHieesaseetinehtnoinv4dast,nratyl in cross-examination eaerxegjt eornareoe,rtr
ado
lithattnha.er
my
.his
one,
1. neeboGun
but the
nt
hearenadall
DleLaigearnvd
withouttu.s any delay to ascertain from the Pri-
lHasotned fnorarsoenveertal nersconstitutional liberty lam ready to worship,l . of the Irish people held up as guilty men, basely. fore-
Coßnamiliwttaee Bpi:1
nseehdaevde
:lumber of Railway Bills for which Petitions
concludedm inu t
minutes,
amidst loud cheering, which Geo. IV., enacting that it should be lawful for Commissio • "Sir,
._ but lives.
were known. He (11. Ir. Sergeant Wilde) thoughtthat there oaltuigolnits
in!ended to produce, that those w
duly appointed to select a certein number of watchmen, and reject the idol of democratic liberty•-( Hear, hear, hear.) sworn upon the word of the living' God?-(Loud che
might be prepared to meet it. Sirchwaeprs
h'reithehe CHANCELLOR of • the EXCHEQUER said raise the necessary funds for payment of their wages, and the I don't Wish to speak disparagingly of my own country, but' And when such language as this is applied to us, to our coup-
f compared the statement that had been just made with kee in of watchhouses &e.-( Hear.) Here was no armed from what you see of the violence of Irish Parties, will you try, and to our religion, can it be wondered at that there is a
pet aettahermee
adoet nibiotoi,ne och.ctfio.smnwiochiefeeasitysti
kei
eeiCtecoi,havtuolani
f.
nsbgte,
oee:
acts-when he compared the Bill that w e
there'watchmen to be paid out of surrender the people of the country to the tender mercies-I feeling of inevitable resentalent Produced in the •nation.s
as proposes, with elite-nor were
thea v e t o state
Committeein
nhc the
ass is tl ev a ltloct
iw.
thelneasure that had been described ---and above all, when he the consolidated fund, and he thought the new corporations, must use the word-of a domestic le^islature ?-( Cheers from heart ? And what estimate ought to be formed of those who
. iansactions-the subject of the inquiry-than an
to compared the consequences of the Bill, and took tilson himself might fairly he trusted to establish a similar watch.- (An the Opposition.) Would you surreider, the people of that first raise,, thisl religious excitement, etsle miserable • " No-
,
have been presented, as well as the mxiisntt;aife caip.
which is subjoined the
, look at the results which must follow from tt rejection of
olonh.emEexmber on the Opposition side referred the Chancellor country to the tender mercies of conflicting factions ? Don't popery how , and th, en avail theruselyes or it, for the Pur- the purpose of justice.
tee Bill-(Cheers)-it was then indeed, 1 e feltiehowfeusicir per-
he t 1 er to the 80th. clause of the new Bill.) Well, you know that the inevitable consequence of such a conflict poses of party ; and, in order to deprive us of the benefit of Sir F. Por.Locic begged
sonally unequal, justified in answering, and he ''and would crelear the words of the new 13111 :--" Be it enacted and collision of opinion will be to produce a sanguinary civil British institutions, appeal to etl,lc blow and
atnhi.cr havehose mbt(eluatbyoaust nomineethet to conduct the investig
prosecution of be embarked in the different sehemesa,
'• co°'llPletely, the Right lion. Gentleman. hoped
Hear. )y He that the watch committee of every such borough shall on the ware_( Cheers repeated from the same quarter.) Does the themselves excited.. on which tn
tof Ifa factious 1 a tabular statement, to
„ fnse of Ctesrmmrroin
might
tak° tbe liberty of saying (without meaning an dis_ Huh day of January, the 10th day of April, the 10th day of Hon. and Learned Gent. (Mr. O'Connell) think, because flame by the incendiary .
da? • nisanteheloil:g, tsw fataleeman f
titled t the Committee. He had been deputed by tlii, number of assents
dissents, and neuters, as they appear in the records of the am.;
respect to the Right Hon. Gentleman) the' there' ran July, and the 10th day of October in every year, transmit to there is a certain preponderance of physical force in those dis- aliment is unremittingly applied 4 ~,,t_ - thO inquiry, and he should office ; together with the stage of proceeding in which eachsßill
Sir,
.Iwl. d'
eerseeingh the whole of Iris brill' t 1 •''
f i • h 14 rd-Lieutenant of Ireland a report of the number of men tricts, that you will compel the sturdy spirits of the North to British institutions, and have them we wi an must, •tr eet
_should attend to that duty. He had no means, Stands, up to the of. Saturday, 27th instant.
!an speec i one strain o sopaistry t e o _ t neither would h
A ssear)- dthrough'•borough,submit etruggle? That struggle would immediately is the plan of the Conservatives? to transfer the nomination
d o act as constables or policemen in such without a.. ee Ulm any, of stating specifically what the charges
PETITIONS FOR RAILWAYS--SESSION 1836.
w
an , Inch he would have occasion to appointe.were-he o-,es not 1 •
pursue h•he arties into which the people of that of sheriff's, of magistrates, of police, the management of is a 1 ulihe prosecutor, nor 1- 11 h
im briefly. He would refer to one single and of the description of arm., accoutrements, and clothing- commence between t p . ... neye4'. woo suggested to him that -
Note( e become one. .
In Proof of this, The Right instance fo *te ) dother necessariesf • country divided, on the passing of such a measure as the re= property, the administration of local justice to the Crenit• thero_ofnr. what, he might
ask ,
viz such was his duty. He was t:7
the gist Hon. Gentleman had, with ( Hear, hear, from the Opposition)-and ion -an fur- are to examine such wit
greatest power, commented uon thi that greater nished to each man," and so on. Now, as to the intention of peal of the Union-where it would close who could tell? What 'lhis, in England, they did got dare to Kepi° i this, appeared to give their testimony, wile es es es e Read
1 What had the Committee Title. Capital. o 3 , 'i," First
power had been given to the town .1) town-councils in Ireland than • this clause, nothing was more certain than that at the present , was begun in folly would end in crime ; and the ultimate con- in Ireland. please God and the people, they shall never Why, their duty was, aecordi id to do?
,counc in ng to the instructions 1 7 7i 2 r•
England, And A did • "
.13 a,„„ ,_, y 1 the Right Hon. Gentleman say so ? moment there existed local - carry. No ;we muot heve municip3l, as we have House, "to ingqire and rsport upon the evidence an
• own
bY
she
, with their ob- . .1 , . 111:e„,
ec--", sa,o the Right Hon. the present owering the local authorities to organize (Loud and long continued cheers from the Opposition.) Now, secured Parliamentary reform. By the same ppiley buth t?,l,(4ticuis theronpae," This was the duty of the Committee, and , --
e cum .IGentleman, the new town-
f theßight Hon. Gent draw_ u sir' , must be governed • and if corporations in his dot was to sweet it, by examinine
--ens, unconnected with tied, , id d • th - besides the regular police force, and that here was the paragraph to which the ~co 1 leg e ~ , . Carlow the parties who came be_
r commerce, would have an pay wa c leen
Aylesbury
of the England ha submitted to control, in the fore its teqessing the late erectio
o Power of •interfering with voluntary associations, such as at the present moment, in the city of Limerick, both those ing himself the distinction between the circumstances. wi btip
popular - 1- ,1 e came to kno tl t • • n, If he were asked Birminoliam, Bristol, a?..1
chambers of 0 b
asked would _ c mmerce ; and the Right Hon. Gentlemandescriptorsp against Mr. 0 Conne I, hq leozged to re I
But he Right Hon. Gentlemen corn ilained also the circumstances of the people of Ireland anthe state of land
be submitted. Da yeet thiels thet W 0 will, or thet we ply-in the same B:rri-Ongliam and Derby . 530,000. 916 143 15e. -16 •
5 i why they sanceion any such power in a town-council ? vemence. t
etas , no such power was given in the Bill.-( Cheers.) There of the power which was to c invested in the or Lieutenant parties in t at county y, .
b • •L dile. •• h tr told the House that in consequence of ought to acquiesce in any measure short of complete equality
his Right Hon Friend 1 A ? Hon 't ' kno that if '
with eingsol, . you w yen treat Les as 'a pro- manner .as the Mereheta of- the Cernmittoo derived tesi I-firming •am and Gloucester 945 000 IA7- 935 lse
informateetioevie,„ Through a statement made by an Hon Ale " ' liol.on an i Leigh ' . *. - - '''
12
3,400 It , e 0
t not a single word which would enable town-councils ap- of generally superintending or governing these constabulary the violence of conflicting parties y
-nat. 'I
Ind be. ' • •ie the elettse et' Commons, and shienigh what was conve;ed • mil'
"carding
Pointed under the Bill to act in the way_ that had been sug- bodies. The Right Hon. Gentleman complained that this showed successfully that the people o re a mg divided vince and a colony, eqd net es part and eeppel qt ycleeselyes_, petitions. He (Sir. k:', Niece ) had already said, and he- ill the 97.000' 6 0 C
; Zeated.......e coßristol orid E••et
i ,iiecrs.) The - into two classes, one of which was a most important if you refuse us what we call .P4Stiee, and what your hearts peat it, thaA lw ,clia hat attend there as a public accuser. wo'r'i di:.e- Chelmsford' &Gie•efa North r
r for the purpose of Right•
Hon.
m . h denied so. It was the ter Y same principle body, though in a physical minority to a large amount, must tell yoq that as justice we rightly deeigeate, e perilotie a cloy •te,periorm, the -nature of which he ha 1•' . 4 0 had t e n 200,000; 47 7 7
0 the argument, which was a recommendation of c equer enie i o e
of a domestic le is : pearsteet out, but Cheltenham & Great Western 760,0001 808 47 59 12
s commissioners, and which was not adopted in the Bill- which the Right Hon. Gent. had adopted when framing the the consequence of. the establishment g - question will be eptrlee4; aritt its 415c4plcm tyig teeyitably be beyond that he would not proceed. Nene She etsject of the House Deptford
60,000. 590 54. 120,
(Continue eh • e d h • • • h . , Bill for the En fish Police and which he thought proper lature in such a state of things would be to tear out the resuscitated. But if Fn Rut' the greet intergational corn- was to get at certain teeterl I
A Batton Iv, . eeringe-an ten mixing up tat recommen- g , , ,
of , selleils4 010 Y Wade for or against any- Dublin and Drogheda
o .un hich was not in the Bill. but used as an argument to place under the direction the responsthle Government of vitals ' of the country, and to produce a civil war.--(Loud pact into real, subiterdiels pritetielil effePt iif icifii ebolish all proposidenr Rll4 in fl te proiceilte the inquiry, he (Sir F. Pol- Dentin and Kilkenny
I It. h ,e
and
the Bin, the Rioe H e If Right Hon. Friend the Attorneys_ cheers from the OPPosition• ) He asked his . night Hon. distinctions, natural and religious •; if You glee ne the !Seise Ale A oette.eipoomioated.te assist the Committee, it bent, ikw., Dundee and Arbroath
e ht Hon. Gentleman appealed to them, the country-(Hear.) ear., isicl 99,800 637 5'..11 91
-11,1" bade them rememberb hechamber of-of Man- General for Ireland had exhausted the subject the •Friend, then, to carry his extended view into a little mere lei,. hive, the same rights, the. same privileges, the same instituoDundee and r •
nuated tat something injurious to the honour' aest dignity CO Neivtyie
t commerce.
.. as to cryino t) 0
eeester, and asked 1 f h t b el. • d h • id h r . note details ; and called•upon him to say whether, if this be tients; W eon is:lace us on a noble level, and establish a *lo- .
of Parliament had trans iced - Durham. Junction
sp ed at the Carlow elegem. He hats Durham '
with them, would they tolerate an interference eel so t e present corpora ° o les ,an e Lou not e wet,s' or ~ ,
no, means if he had the inclination, South West } 50,000 i ,-I 0 ..s
-namely, that there is one party, in a nu- rio s aril hettwee • ou fill our hearts with the lo- •veltieh ho discleiened of e
such an association ? and this too was done for the per- that after the statements which his Right Hon. Friend had the state of things , .
but I 'u P Y 4r. if V. ...g making an charge ihe had q or %tot' ' hcluebergh,Le.tle &Newhaven - I
Ilf 38 44
,pose of raising an impression amongst those who had no. at_ made, there could be any one who would doubt that the pre- rnerical point of view, infinitelY suPerior, °wer in the scale rious consciousness o Bled! eiptiemillio, stri4 %lip Ile feel what 3.
~,,,ini._, _ ,
s_
~.r1
_Figo4, , , ti.T, ony facts beyond 99,r 001 '205 33 96
Festiniog
• ~,,,,, just.detailsthe Hear,
.6,000 21 12 0
-"en to the of • •) ''This t • detectiveand • d alteration. The Right of society (I speak, of course, with regard to the hulk Of the that we ire even as you are-then yet! will. egt eely halo re- en'in'tret4ree 1a 1h _4ll'l what no" tad to suggest now was,
bridg . l'n .1
1 2
Bill.-( and cheers. sent sys em eras, require Gartsherrie and Coat
eHon.Gentleman d 1 • Right Hon. population), and that there- was another party infinitelY infeliOr coed the argument for repeal, but yin} will hove grprihitoed 'AV; grfrils'in;," irpt,3laslu,n °'. Such evidences as was available,
,„ ' a specimen of the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentle- seemed to concur that his eie
in Gateshead 1 Durham - e''
• (or
"MI with t• numbers, but possessing a greater portion of the wealth and Ste preseftee; Fee will eat 1 1 aye remo -qd thq teotlye but Learned Friend aid he never *imposed that his Hon. and Great am
ith respect to this Bill.-( Hear. )He would take ano• Friend's arguments were true as related to certain borouges _ , . . •,9tl Yd • .I, At ~ i, el ~ , . was to act tie a puttlic prosecutor, neither that he North of England).. 600,000 l 475 52 56
they • t'''
h H Friend• whether, • At A i '• '
eetample and one more important. The Right Hon. which he alleged were created b James I. for certain political intelligence-he asked his leig t on. in oraweatee the eestre ; anst that yen may act this wise part is had made up his Ga'esnead
ereieel else way or the other with re ant to the ease. Rclilonkwearmouth 186,3001 944 81 -9
it Genii plc,
I'A • i tool -I. i 1.• v. id e 1 •Ii hadceased to and therefore he every town in Ireland, containing such classes of inhabitants, the prayer of ene who bade at heart the interest and peace of The epee iesseeli hart arisen out, of a • • .
fro - tas, main.y mile.. upon tee resuds wide. wou, ow purposes, w iic purposes waist,g Glasgoo, and Airdrie -
petitien which had been pre- 1 3O 48
d En the Bill with t t the ointment f oration she admitted the boroughs should cease to exist also- Now, this he would year after year, and during several period
ries - wi yes o e appo corp- sof the • is
Ins country, and the glory qf trtq.t gre.it prnnirc of tylji9ll if eented yea certain lettere which had been published, and Glasgow and Falkirk Juelotion -138,000 151 15 73
•r brou Ist into co/lision forms so and of which I tr'fl-t t
t, ; uPee this it was argued that such powers were to be applied was not a correct statement of the case ; for if the Right Hon. same year, Consent eo have these parties g , , essential, e hat, irelqng, it 0 .
vie, selec.h appeared tO Iteoes twee Great Northern
from Mr. Raphael. The impression G w -.
O ° '2O lOW 'S, whenthe fact there only •ht towns in Gentleman would turn to the 25th Charles II ,he would find
was . were eight _ . _ with respect to every question which concerned their stonse,sttc preve a prosperous part.-( Loud cheers.)made by tb 1 '
;' .11Ats lettere Ives so strong, that a petition had t
„, wore sent Greif estero (No. 1) , 4B 58 87 19
Ilrbich these ' f f 11. t and closest interests ?-(Loud cheers.) He was not there. Criteria gQINI9LLY coincided fully in the st te mll lel the Seenee 4 Vommons, prayin that an inquiry m4he he insti- (No. 2) . ; 0 0 0
it officers were to be appointed. There were only there rules made or the government o a the corporate emcee i.. :_, 4 . •. • ~.5 _I ,1,11- le WO founded Hoyle
tight t , • o. , Sheriffs,and 1 is Ireland,6mentionedarticular,about to enter at any great length into a discussion of the prig suggestions offered ivy the Right Hon. •etareties aria the Noble is- ' •
-tided upon suggestions alto something which Air, O'Con-
own. es. which there were esorporation
11l ',hid' 'l was supposed to have done, contrary no 'bio honeur and di.gnity Hull and Selby
tociplea on which this measure was (banded ; there it ould, no Lord below him. The Hon and Learned Member for TiT.
t were to be continued under the Present Bill.-( Hear.) included in general terms, and there was no mention of. any of .
for .
~,,, , • , , ippe- of Parliament ; what that " sieeseetlsi "' wax, it is highly des'iro Leh
and Derby (or North 455,000 816 158 L 59 . 12
appointedut upon the fact the sue„stion was raised that Sheriffs were them in reference to any political purpose, but solely in refe- doubt, be another opportunity doing so, Where was. noe nary was the bitterest foe to that kindliness of feeling which to know. It W 4, ow_ that 040 eau.lltt .' have
us Midland)
• • "B h • went to show that the rence to their municipal affairs.-(Hear.) Before he sat down oPleelsition, ag far as he was aware, to the second efiening et should subsist between the Catholics and protestants ; and .11 H_
~ _ ssee . . rai ce would to report te 1,500,000 1399 395
.249 17
e. iti •in all the towns. But e now . .
this sls Anse Vie.% ofseeevaeione upon the facts brought before ;Alen) London & Blackyrall 600,000: 1143 1521 15.' -•
)f, tieght Hon. Gentleman had not dealt candidly with ques_ he must again call the attention of the House to what he con- th!s Bill.--( Hear, hear, and a laugh from the Ministerial side.) howow,V ;ig gEtted in
_Oat qol!Se of his d,eeiep fee kaiticitien w kb. eyere resteeared to convey misconduct or &m00, , and as
o- "u•---( H 1 d 0 ear, mar, an cheers.) When that Right Hon. ceived would be the consequence of their adopting the re,- His Right Hon. Friend seemed to consider that those who sat amongst ail elieiea, 'mere Wei 1.111 OtteePr tiingtill c 1141.1 his of Aire "O'Connell's conduct or honour was impugned, in thie trans- London & Bri ~ .3 -18 422
gliton ...... ..... 1,000,000 890 1331 'll
entlemhis (Lord Stanley's) side of ilia who supported the
h d-• • t ation of justice, he would say commendation of the Right Hon. Gentleman. By so doing at
ill that, , an spoke of te a n.tnis rOrtNioui to ascertain Le 1,200,000 1030 3201 9 ''
in the • for the reservation of its pure administra- they would be publishing a declaration that the people of second reading of the. Bill were incertsistea je taking the people. The course pursued by the Hon. Vol Learned Gen-Longo & Cambridee
what
. that " something" affecting l'ae was. His Learned , o 1 900 I , o • -
in tio,„, , anxiety p Ma it was signified they would take-.,a eeeroe in I n London & Croydon
e, .., te tart was one of scandalous deception.-( Cries of " Order.) . ~
Friend said that he was eeli, in possession of the means of
e- 1.," he was disposed to go as • far as that Right Hon. Gentle- Ireland were unworthy of trust, unworthy of self-govern- course
he
.
11 - and distinctly li.
wine le unequivosser
.e a expressed.
.ts concuv- • 1--atillg sPeenlekllY Ai. oharges •it would therefore b• f .7. I 2-o qt 14
London & Dover (S. Eastern) 1 400 000 )
The align4.4-.11 eeggeste4 to the Hon; Mereher the necese s,e •m-teee • ..
ci, left4n• If there were provisions in the Bill.that were defective, merit, and that not in general terms, which would be less
hem
disc those lt was his wish that the ad- offensive and less dangerous, but on account of the religious renee, inasmuch as they grg adopted the Principle of the sity of moderating eis language, • • seem It e now todetermine whether they would go into the in- London & Gravesend
e- sett . discuss provisions. h ( H hear.) present Bill, and next that their preempt course was at sari-quiry at all, since the charges were not eeseti, and since it might
' ' London & Norwich EasternlB
a entration of justice should be pure. He said that the man- differences which existed between t em.- ear,Colonel CONOLLY begged pardon of the House ;bet the appear only an idle statement, rearsette •en th d fCounties) (
- emo e o conductingl .500 000 1-85 ,
aer of deali • h • bR• ht H It d then that this Bill would not have met with one mice with the view which they took °n the "4414119t4 t° the passions of the people were worked on in such a manner by the rhe c,rio, eisetion_ efth , csi,
ng with this question y the ig on. Gentle- appease „ ess,- o„ , ,_,that TeOndon Grand Juntien .• ' ' ' 49°
c•)9'
.1-- Nan e , if it had Address. lie linnibly took the liberty of saying that. theep e inentee.niu proceed, he nopee 6OO 000 1580 .9 99
0 ,-' shot too much of Parliamentary dexterity-for he dwelt word of opposition from the Right Hon. Gentleman, nifiAt Hon. Gentleman and his friends, and their feelings ex- the accusation miens he '• •London, Sho h le ''''):i--. ' 16- --°
tar t in theirproceedings.- Hear, 9 (~ • • .1, iI, known, as the inferences which might be re ara,t,t I:ig .tott 804,600 890 133 118
o'illY npon certain points of the Bin, and excluded others which not happened that the majority of the PeoPle of Ireland were was n° inconsistency Fba-ever . .c ,_ ,a P sated 14 alit ‘n went as they could not conceive. With &Awn troie. the evidence might vary, and coonvi x4i,ht think the Manchester am, Cheshire,
etr •,ere a . , •1211 tie -- 17
for ,r, Lswers to nim, and the arguments uoon which he relied. Catholics.-(Cheering.) He was glad the Right Hon. Gen- hear, from the opposition, We did object, and shou d OD- regard to the corporation of Naas, he was authorized by Lord applied to one particular circumstance, and so: 'shape their questions Y Manehestee and Leeds 1,300,000 2526 4523 ' - '
is, The to • - b. ti did not oppose the second reading of this Bill. But jeer again, to be tied down to the a4pli9P of the principle of Mayo to say that there was no such conveyance by the corpo• to the witnesses, whereas the Oseesnettee might have
his Rig ne of the Right Hon. Gentleman had been taken up e eman difitnt_ Merttyr Tydfil and Cardiff
e$ ht Hon, Friend; as far as he could collect from the he never heard of a course more at variance with what he had a Bill which was net distinctly explained iiiiY farther than ration of the town of which he was patron, as had been stated, ferenees, and thus the eeesseeikainination would be nseless ;he 'oidland Counties
)ce1,200,000. 1962, 408 330 ' 12
r`9Posit* el.
the, 'ens 01 the Right on. ent eman, i amoun e o
.3e,ifie ehee PI yes eetiu Mr 0'
n ----that there should be total and entire abolition of Cor- adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman.-( Hear, hear.) The should be followed up to the fullest extent. What were the corporation lests 4040 Y trebled ill amount, instead Of any part sll7ll c- g P. .g' • Connell elsmild be stated. Newcastle and North Shields 120,000 333 20 42
he
enratie •d cheers from Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have moved that the Bill be Principles of this Bill ? There were two principles in the of it being applied to his benefit, le tfAIRMAN inquired whether tho Learned S Northfleet and Dover . ......
as, the „en rights. Hear from the Opposition, an ,Legeant wished
the Committee Cedecide level The point-vrheoPolloc and Govan'
be for cal 11?inisterial Members.) Anxious as he had been for a re- read a second time
six instead of , moving as Bill (though they were so embodied hi the pleasure that it Lord JOHN RUSSELL-I am so f Isatisfiedwith
per ect y upon Counsel to propeen with the case • "'
r they should all
ie ey c 88 18 38
f hich the
tal in the c •of England, Scotland. and Ireland, he he had done for leave to bring in in its place another Bill- was difficult to eearate one from the other); one 4. IT speeches addressed to the House by my Right Hon. in their own way, or re- Preston and Longridge 3O.N° 698 21 170
iti- Bilotti., ~ orporations
ei- 4 like
liens., ,f, to know how !se and his friends should.. have met the (Hear, hear)-to abolish all the _Municipal Corporations
• • 1 of was the abolition o!' the eeieting corrupt system, and the other Friends, and they have so full ' •that I el $ s • e
y conveyed my opinions, repent \VILDE sienined that he c ' did South Durham 40,000 728 33 ,64 'l2
)o- ti ' I I 1 H h ) dff Royal Com-
the had come to it, with a proposition for the ex- re and-( ear, ear -an or the creating o awas the adoption of PoPular eleetion in all the towns. To do not consider it necessary to state m f t. r, elfdfe . . ertamly seek to hare 150,000 233 13 16
y reasons or amen mg smile speci c groan 0, accusation laid, ,in order that ho might di- Stockport and Manchester . 1
~action of Y • h 9 (C t. d cheering.) mission, in whose hands all the funds of those Corporations the first of these he acceded willingly and cheerfully- The to this plan of Reform. I shall only just observe, that if the sect his mind to it, ... 230,000 252 28 21 19
on mue
:he ) tt all Corporate in ts •—Stonebridge Junctiog ,
hence he h , h .tad carcely agree with e should be vested, to the total neglect of any hereditary partici- other would hat produce, he thought, the beneficial effects amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet be carried, it will be *lir R. FIIRCUSSOIC thought ttat §ir F. Pollock would have n„ 100,000 118 15 31 16
course from that which his Right Hon. Friend had selected cell, iti orfor Hon. and Learned Gentleman had York s.nd North •
is-
I 4ight H a otud say that e ca. 5 d from it and he wasprepared to adopt a different '
If he thoroughly under- anon or claimant-(Hear, hear)-and adopting a totally anticipate , . .
against so
the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it was as new principle of tolls, and so on.-( Cheers. ) The Right
with . . . . , der to ho heard at the bar of the House . . spoken of facts. ad he - Midland
Thames Haven ,o 450,000 30 60 86
Incumbent on us to engage the services of Sir Charles Wetho- difficulty in stating, whether or not he had certain facts to re, Ulster
iv'' Stood mt. Gentleman( Hear.)495,000 746 226 194
...,5; ap 1i370,000 450 99 37
reference to that question. But betide Right lion. Friend gross an invasion any objection to state whether or not he was '
ii cebl English Irish el ration Reform Hon. Gentleman was so liberal to Ireland, that he was ,
this Bill. e,e to the as the orpoin
leave a single grievance unredressed or a vice unremedied of Ric, facts which he meant to brie forward? r___ _...5. •
g
en s h -words that had been '4, the
~ , e ter
edverted upon of ready on the present occasion to give up the whole ques- „ht Hon. Baronet contemplates.-(Much laughter.) So Sir F, Pali said 25,224.0003697F416575 7475
01-LOCK he had I varlet of facts to ro
ins then school of peaceful agitation " proved this-and he really lion of corporate property.-( Hear, hear.) He only hoped . . astounding proposition of the Right Hon. Gen- doubt, but those y P dote no From this statement it appears that there have been -
Plc 1 h• gut that upon such • a subject the great power; of the that in embracing such bold opinions, the Right Hon. Gen- . ,
those the existing system created-if there was even the far does the
smallest ground of justi6ehle corn taint on the part of any tlerien ex
p _ s • coed anything ever proposed by us in the way of
s the House fifty-seven Petitions for Railways i 1• P •
'gilt Hcaution.-( Hear, hear human belng affected by the proposed measure, their he Reform.__ Laughter, Ishall had an equal op t •t •h h. lf . 'l,
por urn y with AMSO. of enowing • for in- mated outlay of , nvo ving an esti-
„lsl thin Tio, Gentleman should have been devoted more !.o tleman would apply them with great ,
.. ) now state the course proposed
f $ ht
_r than words.-( Hear.) But the words rioted, it shoun:.l i: ' ' b discussion. a 3 ti these evils should
and laughter.) For his own part, he must confess, ee was should enter into
then
e_,ie‘ . to.. ottv to b takenstance, such as that Air, (-I'Cennell had been instrumental in which I' • npwards of twe.nty-eight millions, founded on
. by my Right Hon: Friend: We propo!e that the the return of Mr, fteptissel by means of an aeementtu • enta tfsirniecle t urtt -two Bills have been. introduced, and been read a first
1 e ova every Bine
lye (lire_ embered, were applied to the, English Corporations- .
not prepared to concur in the sweeping intentions of the be met, with the fu lest 0000tb dtt.ermnia ion t? r.. fa _ should be read a second time to-night, and go into Corn- a sum 9f Fogey was to be p 'cl • ' that certain ,in which
_. S ado), that to these Petitions there appear 36 978 assents,
ive Heir, and cheers from the Opposition Members.) Let the Kieft on. Gentleman ; and
.he would again impress up . .
Loin
abuse. So far then as the destruction of the eaisting Uorpora- mittee on Monday next N ai , arm letters had 6,5/5 dissents, and 7,475 As, how - it '•
dhe would admit that his Right Hen, at bt I n- i • • Now, I wish
.to know. whether the figura ihtween the parties, in whieli it was stated that money that the estimates of expected neuters.t
• . • however, is notorious
cot loav • Gentlemen who cheered carry out the principle, and the Right Hon. Gentleman his earnest. hope, that for the Botts wiaisac.erne ,‘.ion, Gentleman will embody his proposition in en in. !tad been paid. 'these facto, however, might be denied, and, proceedings in Bills of this descriptionfirst
are frequently inaccurate, it
D • •••Ito th . extent of i indeed, might be untrue. With regard to General Darling's is probable that, in reality, an•
noel the 14 •1) Lthem t the book a iiistitutionn• of the country, the Right Honourable Con- trustive f' He was a estructve certain y . c wilt n the Committee?outlay exceeding by many millions
case, five dietinet charges were made against him by an Hon. the sum here stated, is involvedY'
!so oefice f Minis side. et pu uponthe Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, but not a Sir R. PEEL -,-I will state at Member in the of Commons, in these different undertakin s
the nu i°r the repeal of British corporations, because, if conti- tleman would ten:per his ardour with some degree of mode- .
so. He was trot r 4 tend further, that the re- Jive -- once that lam desirous to leased ,, . House and if the Committee The immense amount of national capital which is thus rg .ed
1 3 • at` loOgef they bschools far fearful political ration and discretion,-(Loud Isus-liter and cheering-) The whit more IPae t° g°ll • ' plans the House an opportunity of deciding between the fwd
egitatio , ey might
.ecorde sponeibility for the administration of jestieP in t, the might see those specific charges in the votes of last to be embarked, as well as the great sacrific • proposed
t - R. I H Gentleman said, and said no doubt with perfect the towns plans submitted to it ; and with that view I shall simply move essiere between the 20th of July and the sth of A es which various landed
cu- tarn ration and religious aremosities.-(Hear, hear.) At the ig it on.
of should, for the sake of the peace of the country, be veeted itt 411 instruction to tconclusion, the Hon, and Learned Gentlema ugust. In proprietors or occupiers, whose property may be affected by
. e time however, that 1 (the Chancellor of the Exche- sincerity, that he was for giving, in all respects, equality he Committee. If the House should nega-n stated that
is- ,t he was proposed
.schemes, must be called upon to make, render the de-
ready to with the evidence,
Tor\
cleaned ,he l Lord Lieutenant d h d •••
1t thepeople of Ireland, without any religious distinc- theteletenant ;an e was prepare to ve the count- tivo that, I shall not give the Noble Lord much trouble with would proceed trusted the Committee vision which Parliament may ultimately take upon these •
.11- 1),,i,2 for Ireland the application of the same general rights o - p-rmit him so to conduct the case,dvarious
,rid
tn 'pies of legislation and government as were applied to tons or exclusions whatever. .
4'and h - ' d had denied, that there expression of sentiment was ever more sincere than , _ s .
that -of tions of the munici al bodies, •uet so much power, and no rote forthe reading Bill,its •e jcP3m was then cleared, and on the agents being again ad- pears to you Committee to be the paramount did 4an it ap-
-1-10 was quite certain that no respect to the details,--,(Cheers from both sides.) I will not Th -•'' Bills, a matter of the utmost national im oi•tance •
h E Id h j 'l' d nil uld be 11) • second of the because one of prat- 'milted, the CHAIRMAN intimefeel that the Coa the House
ciat tight b ,i. e did riot eny, nor ever.lmittee had dew
f, which the Right Hon. Geetleman. The Right Bon_ Gentleman tia?Ti-t as that w_ie__ eon -e $131,-1 . 1,1-- w° - u ',led of Commons, to take every precaution ag • y •
pon hearing the evidenee s'against the disastrous
es' iyould •to considerations connected with the former te .
.consequences which must ne • •
. necessarily follow, if, after the sane-
fll 11 from • e that in the system of religious plied, fonder the Bill now brought in by his Majesty's Mi. mised, I assent to, The other principle of the Bill I totally Evidence was then ereeelinto, but in conformity with • • .
in. i (lie call for considerable modification in the details.- knew uwe , experienc ,
had existed too twig, all nisters, to political objects, and not with the view of vindi- dissent - tion of the Legislature has been obtained, and the work have
I • -ar be ) They had already shown this when dealine. distinctions and exclusions which from ; and it appears to me that the best course to Lion of the (-_,l‘aieman, above alluded
see With til hear. ha • Ireland eating proper municipal privileges.-( Cheers.) Now, these hlieation of it. to, we, at present, decline the been partially proceeded with, the
!3,.
T.l the
nd, revisions of the had been the scene, had originated.-( Hear, hear.) But the wore the principles on which he considered that he was of the two measures in this: respect, is to mqya i'q ir • - • ' istruction .In the course of the morning Mr. Raphael was called and exa- when called for, should not i us, or the capitals subscribed,
.4.'
1 • e corporations of England and Scotia ,
it; 3 was the same, but the detaels and • the principa the discord and all the outrages, of which un ppe ascertain the sense of the House as to the comparaf ive Meri4 ii 4 are based turn out to be fathers • ••
these
P : b d h• • •1) ••
Er, • respects from Right Hon. Gentleman ought to recollect, t
inflict
hat it was as oun to cypress is entire concurrence re t e proposition to the Committee on Monday ler ten substitution of my pro- mine .forthcoming. ro guard against
by those
h Bill were very different in many fridof the evils of the • •-d evils, it seems to be absolutely necessarthat -
good as to or getting
t 1 e • that of
position in rile pee of et the Right Hon. Gentleman . Commons should, either by •
tate 'e in th Bill for Scotland : so in the present case they great an injustice to deny an act of great
aileeesee C. ~ • •,• e. ..e_ e,--tee, Tllll }at not in all a great evil. upon religious grounds.-( Hear, hear.) Right Hon. 11 •
Yet support the measure of the -aronct. In preference oopotite.-( Hear hoer.) The room in which the proceedings of this Committeetrite arigid • •-
itself or through its Committees, • st-
in i-
. e_. _2 .1_ _ ri,_,.. IT__ f1.......al .a L. aiinf.,l
‘,,r„.,Ans,
b.,,i,,,,..h,„... ,
_A
,__
_____,, ,
.‘ was con- ,
,_
_.. more
,requiry than has hitherto prevailed, into the dif

You
the
the
icse

ab e out of the consolidated fund, but a few watchmen, to be
paid out of the funds of the Corporation.—(Hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman then read a few words from the Act 9th
Geo. IV., enacting that it should be lawful for Commissioners
duly appointed to select a certain number of watchmen, and
raise the necessary funds for payment of their wages, and the
keeping of watchhouses, &c.—( Hear.) Here was no armed
police—nor were there watchmen to be paid out of
the consolidated fund, and he thought the new corporations,
might fairly be trusted to establish a similar watch.— ( An
Hon. Member on the Opposition side referred the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to the 80th. clause of the new Bill.) Well,
he would read the words of the new Bill :--" Be it enacted
that the watch committee of every such borough shall on the
10th day of January, the 10th day of April, the 10th day of
July, and the 10th day of October in every year, transmit to
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland a report of the number of men
appointed to act as constables or policemen in such borough,
and of the description of arm., accoutrements, and clothing—
( Hear, hear, from the Opposition)—and other necessaries fur-
nished to each man," and so on. Now, as to the intention of
this clause, nothing was more certain than that at the present
moment there existed local Acts, which would be repealed by
the present Bill, empowering the local authorities to organize
and pay watchmen besides the regular police force, and that
at the present moment, in the city of Limerick, both those
descriptions of police existed without any clashing or incon-
venience. But the Right Hon. Gentlemen complained also
of the power which was to be invested in the Lord Lieutenant
of generally superintending or governing these constabulary
bodies. The Right Hon. Gentleman complained that this
was a new principle ; but he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) denied it to be so. It was the very same principle
which the Right Hon. Gent. had adopted when framing the
Bill for the English police, and which he thought proper
to place under the direction of the responsilde Government of
the country..—( Hear.) His Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-
General for Ireland bad exhausted the subject as to the crying
evils of the present corporate bodies ; and he could not believe
that after the statements which his Right Hon. Friend had
made, there could be any one who would doubt that the pre-
sent system was defective, and required alteration. The Right
Hon. Gentleman seemed to concur that his Right Hon.
Friend's arguments were true as related to certain boroughs
which he alleged were created by James I. for certain political
purposes, which purposes had ceased to exist, and therefore he
admitted the boroughs should cease to exist also. Now, this
was not a correct statement of the case ; for if the Right Hon.
Gentleman would turn to the 25th Charles 11., he would find
there rules made for the government of all the corporate towne
throughout Ireland, some being mentioned in particular, others
included in general terms, and there was no mention of any of
them in reference to any political purpose, but solely in refe-
rence to their municipal affairs.—(Hear.) Before he sat down
he must again call the attention of the House to what he con-
ceived would be the consequence of their adopting the re,-
commendation of the Right Hon. Gentleman. By so doing
they would be publishing a declaration that the people of
Irelar.d were unworthy of trust, unworthy of self-govern-
ment, and that not in general terms, which would be less
offensive and less dangerous, but on account of the religious
differences which existed between them.—( Hear, hear.)
It appeared, then, that this Bill would not have met with one
word of opposition from the Right Hon. Gentleman, if it had
not happened that the majority of the people of Ireland were
Catholics.—(Cheering.) He was glad the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman did not oppose the second reading of this Bill. But
he never heard of a course more at variance with what he had
always understood to be the usages of Parliament than that
adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have moved that the Bill be
read a second time that day six months, instead of moving as
he had done for leave to bring in in its place another Bill—
( Hear, hear)—to abolish all the _Municipal Corporations of
Ireland--(Hear, hear)—and for the creating of a Royal Com-
mission, in whose hands all the funds of those Corporations
should be vested, to the total neglect of any hereditary partici-
pation or claimant—( Hear, hear)—and adopting a totally
new principle of tolls, and so on.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman was so liberal to Ireland, that he was
ready on the present occasion to give up the whole ques-
tion of corporate property.—( Hear, hear.) He only hoped
that in embracing such bold opinions, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would apply them with great caution.—( Hear, hear,
and laughter.) For his own part, he must confess, he was
not prepared to concur in the sweeping intentions of the
Right Hon. Gentleman ; and he would again impress upon
the Right Hon. Gentleman his earnest hope, that for the
safety a the country and the preservation of the venerable
institutions. of the country, the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman would tenper his ardour with some degree of mode-
ration and discretion,—(Loud ie.:is-liter and cheering.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman said, and said no doubt with perfect
sincerity, that he was for giving, in all respects, equality of
rights to the people of Ireland, without any religious distinc-
tions or exclusions whatever. He was quite certain that no
expression of sentiment was ever more Sincere than that of
the Right Hon. Geetleman. The Right Bon. Gentleman
knew 'full well, from experience, that in the system of religious
distinctions and exclusions which had existed too /prig, all
the discord and all the outrages, of which unhappy lielered
had been the scene, had originated.—( Hear, hear.) But the
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to recollect, that it was as
great an injustice to deny an act of great good as to inflict
a great evil, upon religious grounds.—( Hear, hear.) Yet
that was the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman, not
openly and explicitly stated • perhaps (the Right Hon.
Gentleman was too prudent for that), but certainly inferred,
and that pretty clearly, not only by what had fallen from the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself, but from other quarters out
of the House, evidently upon something like authority. He
had lately seen a pamphlet in which it was stated that
the Protestant Corporations of Ireland were the safe-
guard of the Protestant religion in Ireland ; and further,
that the Protestant religion in Ireland was the sole security
for the continuance of the British connection.—( Hear, from the
Opposition.) That was an acknowledgment of the doctrine
which lie was gratified to hear.—(Cheers from the Ministerial
Benches.) What he had now to say upon the subject was,
that he did not believe that assertion, He believed that the
connection between the two countries was founded upon a con-
sideration of the true interests and best feelings of large
majority of the people of both cettotries—( Hear, hear)-ees
connection of governments, which, if e,dministered upon fair
and just principles, indiscriminately between Cetholic and Pro-
testant, must in the end tend to ensure the safety of the two
countries, the peace of the general community, and the vigorons
and efficient administration of the law.—( Hear, bear.) But
on the other hand, by alleging that the Catholics of Ireland
were inimical to the connection with England, you went the
very way to create those jealousies and antipathies which might
produce the very evil predicted. No doubt there was a risk to
be incurred in all political changes of the kind. There was
risk in passing the English Parliamentary Reform Bill—there
was risk in passing the English Corporation Bill; but there
was not a tenth part as much risk in passing the present
Bill for regulating the corporations of Ireland as there had
been in passing the Irish Parliamentary Reform Bill, which
was carried by the House, and zealously supported by many
Hon. Members whom he now saw opposite.--( Cheers.)
After having given this engine of political power to the Irish
people—after having put arms into their hands—by now seek-
ing this petty mode of aggravating their power, of inciting
them to discord, and of (he had almost said) re-producing—
( Hear, hear)--the political agitation which they had too long
carried on, they would be but alders and abettors in those dis-
cords and that unhappy agitation.—( Loud cheers.) He re-
gretted to have occupied so much of the time of the House.—
(Cheers.) He wished to support the present Bill by the best
means in his power : he felt bound out of justice to Ireland,
to apply those just principles of equality which had been ap-
plied to England to Ireland also—modified only in the details
by the circumstances peculiar to each country.—( Hear, hear.)
Do not let the House degrade the whole population of one
portion of the empire, by pointing out to them the rights and
'social institutions enjoyed by their fellow-subjects on the
other s'ele of the water, and then telling them that those rights
and enjoyn:Pnts are to be 'withheld from themselves.—( Loud
and continued cbeering.)
Lord STANLE y said he had been so pointedly referred
to both by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
opened the debate, and atop by the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, that he must be permitted to say a
few worth, though he felt that this was not the proper oppor-
tunity for entering upon a fun discusst.in of the rival plans
just submitted to the House.—(lronical crins of " Hear,
hear," and laughter, from the Ministerial benches,) He
knew not what had excited the risibility of the House in the
expression of the rival plans for effecting one and the same
object.—( Hear, hear.) That object was, as both parties were
agreed, to frame a measure of great good for Ireland by
doing away with the corporate institutions of that country as
they existed at present, and substitute others in their stead.
—(Hear, hear.) For doing this, two plans were now before
the House and the public, arid the House and the public would
base to judge which of the two was most likely to attain the
desired end.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, who
had just sat down, said he could not see how it would he pos-
sible for those who supported the Irish Parliamentary
Reform Bill to withhold their assent from the main
feattiree of the present Bill.—( Hear.) He (Lord Stanley)
had been a warm and cordial supporter of the Irish Parlia-
mentary Reform Bill, and he was as anxious as any one could
be to sde Ireland enje7ing full and impartial justice, and the
liberty of freely and fully expressing her political feelings ;
but at the same time lie much rieuisted whether it was advisa-
ble to run the risk of mixing up political 414c0ssion and agita-
tion with the management cif her internal affairs' alreedy suf-
ficiently disturbed by the religious and political differeitees
which existed in the country.--,(dear, hear.) His Right
Hon. Friend Ore Chancellor of the Ei4e4iner) said it was
the same injustice whether you withheld a greet good or
inflicted a great evil upon Ireland, But he would ask,
was it certain that the system proposed would prove a great
good to Ireland ? Would it produce impartial justice in
Ireirted,,,-(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, echoed by
cheers from the Ministerial side) ? Would it inskue peace
and tranquillity ? Weeld it drown religious differences and
legal animosities ?—( Hear, rE, p,nd cheers as before.) If
ti(iit4a4 would indeed be a
would evrenc to with-
tglrniesabt
ougoodteldad;
psoou,n tt I:ye,n
andhe 'wool
au
with-
hold it. But that wear the very question which they bad to
diecuss—(Hear from the lipeeetion)—and until that ques-
tion hs4 been discussed and deciaetti, .4o i..eeit let them persist in
forcing thrlyib a measure which might prove on Fontrary
very curse to the ,041Ary.--( Loud cheers.) His Right Hon.
Frieis4 seid it would ;he ifezo,;..e to legislate for Ireland upon any
other principle than that adoptedteesserds England—that it
wc uld be unjeet for Scotland to be allowed to choose her own
municipal officers, Ned to regulate corporate affairs, and not
Ireland, Now ire liaphe,nel .p) re,eoile,ct i.9,11av
,seen an au-
thority upon this ,very subject, ,he wa,s „Sure would stand
rather high in the estimation of the illooei and lie would quote
that authority, and read to the House a passage in a speech
delivered by his Right Hon, Friend himself.—( Hear, hear,)

a is in which the chief professors of the science of agita-
t on would be made the chosen instruments for wielding the
.!sreil force in the dispensation of public justice. (The Right
!I re Baronet concluded amidst loud cheering, which
lasted for several minutes. )
The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER said
when he compared the statement that had been just made with
the facts when he compared the Bill that was proposed with
the measure that had been described—and above all, when he
Compared the consequences of the Bill, and took upon himself
to look at the results which must follow from the rejection of
the Bill—(Cheers)—it was then, indeed, be felt, however per-
sonally unequal, justified in answering, and he hoped fully and
coeepletely, the Right lion. Gentleman.—( Hear.) He
might take the liberty of saying (without meaning any dis-
rf spect to the Right Hon. Gentleman) that there ran
anthrough the whole of his brilliant speech one strain of sophistry
--(Hear)—and through which he would have occasion to
pursue him briefly. He would refer to one single instance
theproof of this. The Right Hon. Gentleman had, with
greatest power, commented upon this—that greater
P.!)iver had been given to the town-councils in Ireland than in
%%eland. And why did the Right Hon. Gentleman say so?
cause, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, the new town-
uncils, unconnected with mete or commerce, would have
the power of interfering with voluntary associations, such as
chambers
would of commerce ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman
asked ‘ould they sanction any such power in a town-council ?
'IV, no such power was given in the Bill.—( Cheers.) There
lvaa not a single word which would enable town-councils ap-
Pointed under the Bill to act in the way that had been sug-
4.e'led•—f Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman stated this
for the purpose of argument, which was a recommendation of
the commissioners, and which was not adopted in the Bill—
,Continued cheering)—and then mixing up that recommen-
dation which was not in the Bill, but used as an argument
againet the Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman appealed to them,
and bade them remember the chamber of commerce of Man-
chester, and asked them, would they tolerate an interference
with such an association ? and this too was done for the pur-
pose of raising an impression amongst those who had not at-
tended to the details of the Bill.—( Hear, and cheers.) This
ag just a specimen of the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentle-
,ga with respect to this Bill.—( Hear.) He would take ano•6ler gmlmple, and one more important. The Right Hon.
freatiellan had mainly relied upon the results which would flow
ri°ffsa the
,Bill with respect to the appointment of corporation she-
t upon this it was argued that such powers were to he applied
120 towe's, when the fact was there were only eight towns in
which:sht townsthnse officers were to be appointed. There were only
iie which there were Corporation Sheriffs, and
But h were to be continued under the present Bill.—( Hear.)
upon the fact the suggestion was raised that Sheriffs were
rowed in all the towns. But he now went to show. that. the
tiollitlj,?,ne.a Gentleman had not dealt candidly with this ques-
When that Right Hon.
r bear and cheers. )
that, spoke of the adrcinistratio.n of ju. stice, he would say
ti at, in the anxiety for the preservation of its pure administra-
tion,he was disposed to go as far as that Right Hon. Gentle-
-1 If there were provisions in the Bill that were defective,
Gentle-
let them
discuss those provisions. It was his wish that the ad-
kinistration of justice should be pure. He said that the man-
-I'ev of dealing with this question by the Right Hon. Gentle-
showed too much of Parliamentary dexterity—for he dwelt
1,-111 t; on certain points of the Bill, and excluded others which
Iwere ahswers to him, and the arguments upon which he relied.
ee„tene of the Right Hon. Gentleman had been taken up by
Right Hon. Friend; for, as far as he could collect from the
te" r 9, Positions of. the Right Hon. Gentleman,d
b it amounted to
Cor-
poration 'Lthat there shoule a total and entire abolition of
rights.--( Hear, from the Opposition, and cheers from
f° e Ministerial Members.) Anxious as he had been for a re-
,"m in the Corporations of England, Scotland. and Ireland, he
like to know how ke and his friends should have met the
Route if they had come to it, with a proposition for the ex-
ket'on of all Corporate rights ?e-( Continued cheering.)
nee he should say that be coild scarcely agree with the
etigeuat Gentleman.—( Hear.) If he thoroughly *lnder-
e: 17 toe argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it was as
Aretble to the English as the Irish Corporation Reform
th The very words that had been animedverted upon of
eh e schools of peaceful agitation " proved this—end he really
et',3u,ght that upon such a subject the great powers of the
throat Hon. Gentleman should hays been devoted moee to
he ugs than words.—( Hear.) But the words quoted, it shouiel
threernembered, were applied to the English Corporations—
ar, and cheers from the Opposition Members. ) Let the
.move Gentlemen who cheered carry out the principle, and
N for the repeal of the English Corporations.—( Cheers
tio:n the Ministerial side.) Let them put upon the book a
ou''ce for the repeal of British corporations, because, if conti-
lentigef, they might become schools for fearful political
-4"oll and r l.gi religious animosities.—(Hear, hear.) At the
tisle4lereetilif howeeei-ero, that he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
l)ria claimed for Ireland the application of the same general
„ c'ldes of legislation and government as were applied to
Tulland, he did not deny, nor ever had denied, that there
t be local considerations connected with the former which
gfe°ulll call for considerable modification in the details.—
ear, hear.) They had already shown this when dealing
in te the corporations of England and Scotland ; the principle
Er,o!'n was the same, but the details and provisions of the
h'ilsh Bill were very different in many respects from
teeese in the Bill for Scotland : so in the present case they
she details
of the principle of the English Bill, but not in all
lee details when legislating for Ireland. There might be
ia",2ee details in the former which, if epplie.d to Ireland, might
thr schools for peaceful political ag:tation. To throw out
si 3 Bill would be an act ef injustice to the nation, an expres-
ththea.of distrust ill the whole people of Ireland,. and would. .be
at lounciation of an universal school for political agitation
ter's"senhout the country.—( Hear, hear.) He felt srongly on
felt it I.lect, because he recollected the course which h.e had
the Re's duty to take two years age in opposing a motion for
Wes eerai of the Union in that House.--( Hear, hear.) It,
Noiich he se he opposed the Repeal of that Union—a Union
gllicicess tee°,asidered to be of benefit to Ireland—that he. was
,ttitiens of have no just cause of complaint in any of the i.nsti-
,'"° leav fe`uat country. How could the House reconcile itself
in the 1;C" Corporations of Ireland in the situation described
inerleo 'Tufts of the Commissioners ? He could not help
e re-
Ge tl g' as somewhat singular, that whilst the Right Hon.
roa
the ease, n°l3pesed the motion of drawing an analogy between
'444 o'i England and ',eland, there were some points in
allele he
,- endeavoured to support his arguments by that very
PlaieeT-- ( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman com-
in that the power proposed by this Bill to be vested
Was g Lord Lieutenant, of granting charters for the future,
Weettrre general and extensive than in the English Bill.
Per sob!" this Power were too general or not, would be a. pro-
They J,eef for discussion when this Bill was in Committee.
priaei wiere here at present, not to discuss the details, but the
Hoe. V of the measure. Another observation of the Right
tatiee g.n„tietnan was, that the effect of the English Corpo-
Pare • was to throw the power out of the hands of one
ingot into those of another. Now this was not a fair state-
Power the object of Co oration Reform was to take the
throe out of the bands of a few and diffuse it more equally
tie* en the whole community in general. Whoever dis-
'edited the new Corporations, therefore, distrusted the great.
sonl:' the whole nation.—( Hear, hear.) The- Right
the be_ Gentleman had spoken of the constant agitation which
to; bill Corporate institutions would be likely to give rise
`'rentsl, he had not condescended to draw one of his argu-
';'ils ,a r°nl the practical working of the new Bill in vari-
If ",!es throughout the' country.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
kee e were °netdangers and diseentions existing in Ireland on
°4=tellairat,(l. the
.present state of her society, these would not
eepezr ee obviated or corrected by a Bill like
ionic ; but to the single motion by which that refusal of
refusing them
Plaihed w"id be carried, -the mischief's' of wh'ich they corn-
ask the I,w_tmld be most effectually perpetuated. He would.
Partial a,"lse, would the refuse to Ireland right ai.Ael !m-
-tehheers ennaniini,stration of.justice Hear, hear, and ironical
the Opposition.) Gentlemen who cheered were
I,()se who
`,..veieh La, °II several occasions had opposed various proposals
aira in'teli.eeti offered for improving the administration of
:'aced CvetL, municipal corporations of England, who had re-
',lone r, r)• attack upon the vested rights of those corpora-
eoly dist' io last year ; and yet those very gentlemen were
fatioos P°4'd to make one general sacrifice of all the corpo-
Without in Ireland—a sort of "murder of the innocents"—
Nally inrnlorse or exception.—( Loud laughter.) He would
.'ite the Right Hon. Gentleman to continue the sys-
hiht wititeleblillii! had heretofore adopted. in cases of
.this kind,
"Olt It seemed now to be entirely abandoning. The
tatiees lie
Gentleman had abandoned the whole of the corpo-
cot , 'rebind, and every thing connected with them, to sig-
for "ueennation.—( Hear.) There was not one word of excuse
fee -Y Party or
, our of t, Person beloeging to them ; not one word in
, ue burgesses. the freemen, the aldermen, or the
N'oop.,e,tici.z.ni They are all to be thrown' down " at one fell
°I tie- \-,neers and laughter.) Now he (the Chancellor
Posa43(ehequee) acceded to the fullest extent in this pro-
pi;olgel'iaie_ with them all, said he ; but whilst they destroyed
twbas aexieuPsetoof self-election which had existed hitherto, he
iitilkeernent of tleifaeilrt
rt, Leans asuloPPY
the people of Ireland in its place with_
government the best calculated for the
had own municipal affairs.—(Hear,
Ireland
'beten tOO e with regret, that the people of
muchlie
eagitated by local and religious animosities;
se he did not
ot redbelievense that they were so totally lost to the
Passions son and that
so depraved and debased by their ,
.as to require then' to be derived of the right of
.fie own e9nceete—( Hear, hear.) The fact was,
, era Gentleman felt that unless he brought for-
lost; 40rnnew on the present occasion, his case was
et'll les. "sr. a '• l'veitY, the Right Hon. Gentleman called
tre:ii.:_ed‘u lend, who last year had opposed the clause in the
fibeiv'eg.'ti:Loonicipal. Reform Bill, for assigning the power of
oundarres of the borough to the King in Council—
Ziolposal foe the
thnetlflose very Gentlemen now to support him in a
formation of a Royal Commission to conso-
fueleaY, and
and to' appropriate too—((fear, hear)—all the
li_aleveoboele.engrreaoifenedtrt of the corporations of feeland. Why, if
had proposed such a thing, what n cry would
niece system
.nagainst them, of endeavouring to ereate. a
e eplect,
to
the
einancy in Ireland 1—( Loud cheers.) *rah
appointment of the magistrates, it was
future Plained that the magistrates at present exist life, but
,c,e would b
ntlemon e elected annually. Was the Right Bon.
Burin„ aware how tThheemagistrates were appointed, and
"fie e, what periods', ed aunually end fac.t. was, they were at present
t.' wished t lad to solicit the votes of the freemen if ioe was v contmue in office.—( (Hear. )3 Now this elec.-
%tent( to
little better than re nomination ;. 1..1• it too fre-
ttoilLentls,naenda that the. eotepoof a single individual gave the
is was one of the sources of the greatest
c'terit in the
H". Gentleman
towns. The next complaint of the
rd tleman was, that the Bill would give the '
:tabulaeeant a
N._y fore_ n unprecedented power of appointing aeon-
th° v what and police officers in the Corporation towns.
e Power
. very s esas there to be given by this Bill ? Why
gtVitig thearne e as that already given by the eth Geo. IV. Itwas
"wer aPpointing,not an armed police force pay_

It was on the occasion of the debate on the repeat question.
His Right Hon. Friend's words were as follow—[The
Noble Lord read the passage to the following effect] :
" Sir, constitutional liberty I am ready to worship, but I
reject the idol of democratic liberty.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
I don't Wish to speak disparagingly of my own country, but'
from what you see of the violence of Irish parties, will you
surrender the people of the country to the tender mercies—l
must use the word—of a domestic legislature ?—( Cheers from
the Opposition.) Would you surrender the people of that
country to the tender mercies of conflicting factions ? Don't
you know that the inevitable consequence of such a conflict
and collision of opinion will be to produce a sanguinary civil
war?—( Cheers repeated from the same quarter.) Does the
Hon. and Learned Gent. (Mr. O'Connell) think, because
there is a certain preponderance of physical force in those dis-
tricts, that you will compel the sturdy spirits of the North to
submit without a struggle? That struggle would immediately
commence between the parties into which the people of that
country are divided, on the passing of such a measure as the re=
peal of the Union—where it would close who could tell ? What
was begun in folly would end in crime ; and the ultimate con-
sequence would be the entire destruction of our country.".—
( Loud and long continued cheers from the Opposition.) Now,
here was the paragraph to which the Right Hon. Gent., draw-
ing himself the distinction between the circumstances of the
people of England and the state of parties in England, with
the circumstances of the people of Ireland and the state of
parties in that country, told the House that in consequence of
the violence of conflicting parties—nay, his Right Hon. Friend
showed successfully that the people of Ireland being divided
into two classes, one of which was a most important
body, though in a physical minority to a large amount,
the consequence of. the establishment of .a domestic legis-
lature in such a state of things would be to tear out the
vitals of the country, and to produce a civil war.—(Loud
cheers from the Opposition.) lie asked his Right Hon.
Friend, then, to carry his extended view into a little mere nsie
note details ; and called- upon him to say whether, if this be
the state of things—namely, that there is one party, in a nu-
merical point of -view, infinitely superior, but lower in the scale
of society (I speak, of course, with regard to the bulk of the
population), and that there- was another party infinitely inferior
in numbers, but possessing a greater portion of the wealth and
intelligence—he asked his Right Hon. Friend whether, in
every town in Ireland, containing such classes of inhabitants,
he would year after year, and during several periods of the
same year, consent to have these parties brought into collision
with respect to every question which concerned their domestic
and closest interests ?—( Loud cheers.) He was not there
about to enter at any great length into a discussion of the prin-
ciples on which this measure was founded ; there t' ould, no
doubt, be another opportunity for doing so, There was no
opposition, as far as he was aware, to the second reading of
this Bill.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh from the Ministerial side.)
His Right Hon. Friend seensed to consider that those who sat
at his ( Lord Stanley's) side of tiro These who supported the
second reading of the Bill were incertsistP4 ill taking the
course which it was signified they would take--,a sseeree in
which he unequivcesal.4 and distinctly expressed his concur- -
rence, inasmuch as they grg adopted the principle of the
present Bill, and next that their preempt course was at vari-
ance with the view which they took on the ar4tind-Olesst to the
Address. He humbly took the liberty of saying that theep
was no inconsistency whatever in their proceedings.—(Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) We did object, and should ob-
ject again, to be tied down to the asisspliott of the principle of
a Bill which was not distinctly explained Lily farther than
that it was prorsiscd that the principle of the English hill
should be followed up to the fullest extent. What were the
principles of this Bill ? There were two principles in the
Bill (though they were so embodied its the measure that it
was difficult to ceparate one from the other); one of which
was the abolition of the existing corrupt system, and the other
was the adoption of popular exertion in all the towns. To
the first of these he acceded willingly and cheerfully. The
other would not produce, he thought, the beneficial effects
anticipated from it, and he was prepared to adopt a different
course from that which his Fight Hon. Friend had selected
with reference to that question. But let.his Right lion. Friend
leave a single grievance unredressed or a vice unremedied of
those the existing system created—if there was even the
smallest ground of justifiable complaint on the part of any
human being. affected by the proposed measure, then he
should enter into the discussion as ne how these evils should
be met, with the fullest possible determination to remove every
abuse. So far then as the destruction of the existing Corpora-
tions was concerned, he would admit that his Right Hon,
Friend bad designated him properly by calling hire a " Des-
trustive f" He was a Destructive certainly to the extent of
the Right Hon. Gentlemen who introduced the Bill, but not a
whit more so. He was prepared to oentend further, that the re-
sponsibility for the administration of jestiee in the towns
should, for the sake of the peace of the country, be vested in
the Lord Lieutenant; and he was prepared to give the muni-
cipal bodies, or rather those substituted to exercise the func-
tions of the municipal bodies, just so much power, and no
more, as that which could be applied, and would be ap-
plied, tinder the Bill now brought in by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, to political objects, and not with the view of vindi-
cating proper municipal privileges.—( Cheers.) Now, these
were the principles on which La considered that he was
bound to express his entire concurrence in the proposition
for getting rid of the evils of the existing system, and to
support the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in preference
to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, because he
contended that a measure strictly applicable to England
would, if applied to Ireland under the cover of a fancied ana-
logy, inflict a curse instead of a blessing—(Cheers)_—and un-
der the fancied assimilation of the administration of justice,
have the effect of withholding that justice in Corporate and
Municipal concerns which the people of Ireland had a right to
expect,--( Hear, hear.) He was prepared to give that equal
justice to all Protestants and Catholics ; but there was one
thing which he was determined, so far as he could, not to al,
low that these bodies should be erected on an ascendancy of
one class over another, but that they. should exercise over all
equally and alike, the impartial administration of Government
and their laws,—( Loud cheers, )
Mr. SHEIL said that the Noble Lord bad stated that he
would not on that occasion discuss the principle of the Bill.
Why did he abstain from doing so ? What more apt oppor-
Amity could be presented, and from what motive did he reserve
the display of his faculties for another night? Surely the prin.
ciple of the Bill sinsold be discussed on the second reeding
and the details in the Oesismittee. Did the -Noble Lord in-
tend to invert the natural order of discussion, and debate the
details before the principle, and the principle after the de.
tails ? His light Hon. leader the Member for Tamworth—
( Cheers and laughter)-444 not taken that course, for he had
not only gone into the principle of the Bill, but struck directly
at its foundation.
Lord STANLEY---It may save the Learned Gentleman
trouble, if I now apprise him that it is intended to debate,
and to divide, on a subsequent occasion, on going into the
committee,
Mr, SHEIL thanked the Noble Lord for his kindness in in-
timating the result of his consultation with his new colleagues
on the other side of the House.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord
had boldly 'gated that he put the question on religious grounds.
The Right Hon. Member for Tamworth had not said so much :
with his habitual: caution and characteristic skill, he had
only dealt in insinuations, w:iiie the Noble Lord, who had not
made any proficiency in prudence, even with the aid of so
valuable an instructor as the Right Honourable Member for
Tainwortle with a great deal of frankness, and he hoped with
not a little honesty, at once let the truth escape from him, and de-
elated
that
as
had
he would deny, to Ireland the same municipal in-
stitutions
been con erred upon the law, from sectarian or
if he pleased so to call them, frcru religious considerations,
How did this accord with the passage in the speech of the
Noble (but somewhat incongruous) Lord, made in 1833, and
which the Attorney,, General had referred to ? In that speech,
so replete with lofty sentiments, and so much in contrast with
the Noble Lord's existing position, the Noble Lord had de-
clared that all distinctions between Catholic and Protestant
ought, by the Emancipation Act, to be buried in everlasting
oblivion ; yet he now resuscitates and evokes them, when to
tohiN%pb purpose
Lordwithheldposetheyma' be made subservient. But although
the from those whom he still pe:-sevcred
is calling his Noble Friends the benefit of his support, he
could not take away from them the Advantage of his authority,
Ile had abanclonpa his party, hut his nould not subvert his
former principles from the solid basis on which they rested.
lie had gone, indeed, to the enemy's camp, but he had left his
arms behind.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord could not
do the same jetriment to his argument as to his character, nor
deal with his logic as it lied unhappily pleased him to deal
with his reputation. —( Loud cheers.) 'file abuses of Irish
Corporations were admitted, But where was the discovery of
these abuses first made 1 When did this lit of virtue seize
the Conservatives, by whoni they were stow for the first
time deplored? Did they not know that property was
plundered, that justice was vitiated to its source, that
to the foulest political instrumentality Corporations had
been turned?—( Hear ?tear,) When the House compared the
former connivance of the Tory party, and their protesta.
tions of newly and suddenly and must unexpectedly excited
horror, at deformities with which they were so familiar, it was
not unreasonable to conjecture that they abandoned Corpora-
tions because they could no longer serve their turn, that they
would abolish all that was sound, because they could not pre-
serve what was rotten, and that they would fell these institu-
tions to the earth not because they had yielded poison, but be-
cause they might be made to bear salutary fruit. The Right
Hon, Member for Tamworth was indeed afraid that these Cur-
puratione 5iic..4141 become, as the Member for Dublin had said,
normal schools of agitation, but the Right Hon. Baronet had
never objected to them wheo they were the polyteolmie schools
in whiela Ceoservatism breugist up its pqpila.--:(1_lood cheese% )
He (Mr. Shell) joined most cordially pi the declaration made
by the Attorney-General, when he 'protested that he should
never propose this Bill if he thought it would lead to the as
eendaney of any party. lie was convinced that if the coun-
try were wail governed, the religious discords that were the
bsne of Ireland, would die away. I.4veil to It wEls, the
Roman Catholics, in the Paereise ef. IT4teVer power they pos-
sessed
tions. His colleague in the second county of Ireland was an
s Inver consulted their religious prejudices or predilec
Er,glishnt4 and a Protestant, with a large Cromwellian
of
estate, which he spade the best end noblest use. In the
adjoining county of 'Waterford? twe Brotest4l}4, 'Sir R. Mus-
grave and r. Stuart, were retornesi by the Komar} Catholic
electors. hemsae obsprvaticn' would apply tq several other
counties. -
late religiqu.s aninvities nf Ireland were fomented
by the law,
acid A the pistitutique of OP pcgilliFYl With whose
reform they would Soon expire. Restore Ireland to a rational
condition, and every individual would soon lose all unnatu-
ral power, while, beyond a doubt, as in every other country,
property would resume its rational influence. But with what
face do the Conservatives talk of religious animosities? 13Y
whom ar.,e, tlig ;post sedulp u
Look et ue publib journap its 'thsly fostered and maintained ?
eir interest, and at •the temis-
saries of theological rateour'whOin they send as incendaries,
to propagate the worst feelingsi arid insulate detestation

—Colonel SIBTHORP said a few 'wards, but the noise
in the House was such, that they were inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HROTHINTON roso.—( A laugh, and a general
movement of the Members towards the door.)
The Bill was then read a ssoond time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday,
. . _

The other orders of the day having been disposed of, at a
quarter past twelve o'vlook the House adjourned.

CARLOW ELECTION SELECT

COMMITTIT,

As soon as the Committee had assembled yesterday, W.
O'CONNELL addressed the members, strenuously urging that the
investigation might be an open one, for justice to himself demanded
such a course, and he was most anxious for a full and complete in-
quiry, as he feared not the result.
The room was then cleared, and on the agents beinc, called in,
viz., Mr. Lyon, for the petitioners, and Mr. Joseph' Parkes on
behalf of Mr. D. O'Connell and others,
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ridley Colborne) stated that the Com-
mittee would be conducted with open doors, but it was most essen-
tial that the evidence could not be allowed to be printed, such a
course being contrary to the rules and proceedings which ge-
verned all similar investigations. After this intimation he trusted
that every body would feel the justice and propriety a adhering to
the suggestion.
The preliminary part of the investigation, as to the mode of con-
ducting the inquiry, &c,, we apprehend, will not come under the
Chairman's injunction, and therefore, as far as that is concerned, we
have given the following report :
Mr. O'CONNELL begged to be allowed to address the Committee
before evidence was gone into, upon two points : the first related
to the nature of the investigation, and as he apprehended evidence
would be gone into en the part of those who conducted the inquiry,
he should have evidence to oiler ; and secondly, he should most
likely be required to give evidence himself.
The CHAIRMAN said as the Hon. and Learned Member had
nominee, he (Mr. O'Connell) would not be allowed to put Ties,
tions himself to the witnesses. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
must be aware of the propriety of such a cnuoie,
Mr. O'CoNNELL wishuti before any decision were come to to be
permitte4 in Address a few reasons to the Committee as to the na-
ture a the charge, There appeared to him to be nothing specific
in the accusations brought against him, and he really was at a loss
to know how justice could be done him unless he distinctly under-
stood what the charges in point of fact were. As he had already
intimated, lie wished to know whether he was to be present during
the inquiry, because he should have probably to be examined as a
witness?

Tpe CHAIRMAN expressed regret at being obliged t 3 interrupt
Mr. O'Connell, but it was essential to abide by the rules laid down
in other cases.

Mr. O'CossEr.t. said, if any doubt existed, he would
slimily quit the room ; and he immediately got up for that pur-
pose when
Ml'. 'WARBURTON rose and said ti; 11) Jfr. Shell's case that
Hon. and Learned Gerltleman %vas allowed to be present ; but he
forgot whether iq tlenural Darling's case that Hon. and Ciallont
ient lonian was present.
Mr. O'CoN:sur.r. said that General Darling did remain in the
room when the investigation was being carried an, and so did Mr.
I). W. Harvey.

(THIS DAY.)
The room in shich the proceedings of this Committee was con-
ducted yesterday having been found too small for the accommoda-
tion of the public, the Committee assembled this morning in the
Vice-Chancellor's Court.

Air. WA Ratun•roN thought that justice would be denied Jr.
O'Connell were he not equally permitted to remain. Was it
not essential that Mr. O'Connell should hear what the nature
of the evidence was which was about to be gone into, to sub-
6tantiate certain general charges? He must say that he thought,
unlesi such were the ease, justice would not be conceded to I.‘b,
O'Connell.

Precisely at twelve o'clock Sir R. COLBORNE took the Chair.
Mr. Raphael's re-examination was then proceeded with, and
was not ended when we went to Dress.

The 6;;AItIIAN said no doubt could oziO that Mr. O'Con-
nell Would be entitled to relnaAlA he were not to become a
witness.

DUBLIN ELECTION COMMITTEE.

The Committeeiesumed their sitting; yesterday morning in the
cfaVirt et Chancery. Sir Rufane Dunkin, since the Committee
last met, has vacated his seat, and this gave rise to a question whe.:
Hier, as he had been re-elected to Parliament, but not to the Com-
mittee, the Inquily could proceed. After some discussion, it was
decided that the Committte should proceed with its labours. No-
thing material occurred, and it was agreed, after some observations
from the Learned Counsel on either side, thatthe ComMittee would
proceed to-morrow (this day) with the question of the paving and
lighting rate, by which many votes are likely_to be affected.
(THIS DAY.)
The Members of this Committee met this morning in the Court
of Chancery, according to adjournment. The, first business pro-
ceeded with was the opening of the boxes and parcels containing
the evidence. They presented a large mass of papers, which will
require no liitle patience on the part of Hon. Gentlemen to go
through.
Mr, TutssicEa proceeded to address the Committee on behalf
of the ejected Members. He defended the conduct of the Com-
missioners against the insinuations brought forward against them
by the friends of the sitting Members. The Learned 'Gentleman
at considerable length went through portions of the evidence taken
at Dublin, and commented strongly upon the conduct of the agents
and Counsel for the sitting Members. He contended that the
object of the sitting Members throughout was delay ; but he hoped
the Committee would shortly be able to decide upon the merits of
the case, and seat his clients, Messrs. West and Hamilton, in the
places usurped by Messrs. O'Connell and Ruthveu. The Learned
Gentleman had just concluded when our Reporter left, by propos-
ing to go into the question relating to the disqualification of voters
for non-payment of the paving-tax in the city of Dublin.

Mr. WAan stated, that Mr. Harvey conducted his own case,
and that he was afterwards examined as a witness,
Mr. Sergeant WILDE said he felt considerable difficulty on ac-
count of a want of specific charges, and that difficulty had been in-
creased rather than weakened by the present arrangement. He
knew nothing beyond the Committee of the evidence, having had
only a short conversation with Mr. O'Connell. He was aware
only of what the public knew throtigh the publication of certain
letters, but beyond that he knew nothing. He had not the least
notion what was intended to be done by his Hon. and Learned
Friend. The charges against Mr. O'Connell were of so extremely
general a nature that he knew not how to grapple with them. The
Committee was called upon by the House to inquire into certain
cniortcustmatsetadt. ices
It seemed, therefore,election,oftheCarlowessential that he sliu
but whatthesueri avehreite the
advantage of Mr, O'Connell Nyließ the Oidetioe was given ; for
tirre PPialit he othei: facts nemsATl far investigation which Mr.
esinnrtoY ttheeixracmhainraecttchre.
alWeareq to him to be the difficulties with which he was sm.-
renndect, aqd, he must submit, that it appeared it, him Indispensable
to have Mr, O'Connell present,
S)r R. "w
witnesses°
House
harsh 7 G
Such 1 l I
140:
osioavi:aephi .
41S.eliged:t1.'V°Itlita ra
view might
to
of be
Sifting ne c
R. ---viairllTA9ll tbaught it would only be an act of justice that
Mrt (Mormon should be in the room during the inquiry. He l's„?,
lieved, however, that Mr. O'Connell's own good seusa would in-
struct him that, during the investigation, hp w,ood not attempt to
address the Committee, since a uquAinv had been appointed by the
absence.
Lord Fit.l.ict ,G.B,T. .ox. was of opinion that it would he a, very
Anoth if 't*. ComMittee insisted upon; Mr.. qcmmell's
er-HoN. GENr44I,;MAN emnlmecl A §,hAilia. QpiAtion,
The Clt t
r, ,' lit'll-NN 04',1,,1 $1i.(1%4E.4 lit
the sAVl'Aittill #l4 1\1;.... Q cunnell should be present, and of course
• Mr.. Raphael might
statednoran t
beyond the
taheim,,
silikewisetgi.huti4o prove, .
no communication with Mr. attendßaphaiefldh,
Sir F. l'ou.oci: said that he was very nearly in the same situa-
, tion as his Hon. and Learned Friend, for lie knew little more of
the matter than his Hon. and Learned Friend did. He had had
I:: t;h:oVuCeigoh:tosvp:r
tio ptfl.;':ni
ig-
norant
know precisely w-Ot•the'.'sSbj,eal'of. til inquiry
Mr. Sergeant WILDE f.,, gpswd tvat it ipigbt b.;. expedient to
re-
quired something special'a to the' motive of the charges
w"justOicueld beent" of the
“ to inrire into the traffic mitt arrangement" of Carlow
n given. by the House to the Committee,

From this statement it appears that there have been presented
to the House fifty-seven Petitions for Railways, involving an esti-
mated outlay of upwards of twenty-eight millions, founded on
which thirty-two Bills have been introduced, and been read a first
time; also, that to these Petitions there appear 36,978 assents,
6,575 dissents, and 7,475 neuters. As, however, it is notorious
that the estimates of expected cost given in at the first stage of
proceedings in Bills of this description are frequently inaccurate, it
is probable that, in reality, an outlay exceeding by many millions
the sum here stated, is involved in these different undertakings.
The immense amount of national capital which is thus proposed
to be embarked, as well as the great sacrifices which various landed
proprietors or occupiers, whose property may be affected by the
proposed schemes, must be called upon to make, render the de-
cision which Parliament may ultimately take upon these various
Bills, a matter of the utmost national importance; and it ap-
pears to you Committee to be the paramount duty of the House
of Commons, to take every precaution against the disastrous
consequences which must necessarily follow, if, after the sanc-
tion of the Legislature has been obtained, and the work have
been partially proceeded with, the calculations upon which they
are based turn out to be fallacious, or the capitals subscribed,
when called for, should not be forthcoming. ro guard against;
these evils, it seems to be absolutely necessary that the House of
Commons should, either by itself or through its Committees, insti-
tute a more rigid inquiry than has hitherto prevailed, into the dif-
ferent plans ; and that, whilst no discouragement should be cast
upon enterprise, which, if properly directed, cannot fail to be bene-
ficial to the nation, the character of these undertakings should not
he permitted to be sacrificed, nor the national capital thrown away,
under the temporary excitement of the public mind which appears
to prevail at this moment, through any want of due attention by
the Committees, or of information in the House.
Deeply impressed with this opinion, your Committee proceeded
to the task assigned them.
The first subject for their consideration Was the possibility of in-
stituting some preliminary investigation into the merits of Railway
schemes, to be undertaken for this information of the House pre-
vious to the Bills being rend a second time, and they felt it their
duty to ascertain whether, with a view to discussion before the se-
cond reading of Bills should be allowed to proceed, or even for the
assistance of the Committee' to which they should be referred, it was
possible for a•::y impartial engineer, by examination of the plans and
calculations of each Railway scheme, to snake a Report upon them,
which should be serviceable.
For this purpose they applied to the Ordnance department ; but,
upon inquiry of a military engineer, it was found that without a
personal survey of the ground proposed to be traversed, it would
not be possible for any such Report to be of use, anr; therefore, with.
reference to the Bills now in the House, it was at once clear, that
the time necessary for such a proceeding, even if it was considered
advisable, would render it impracticable,
They then adverted to the Standing Orders; and although the
examination of these regulations leit your Committee deeply im-
pressed with the necessity of their being fully and attentively re-
vised, yet, considering that all the Bills which have been intro-
duced to the House this Session, have been so upon the faith of
these Orders, they considered it advisable to make as little change
as possible in the regulations by which they might be affected.
Your Committee therefore came unanimously to the determina-
tion, that, however expedient it may be, in their opinion, to frame
other rules for the regulation of Railway Bills which may be
cable in any future Session, during the present, and with reference
to those now before the Parliament, it was impossible for them
to apply any, which might guide the judgment of the 'douse pre-
vious to their second reading ; and that they were,: thus obliged
to confine themselves to suggesting at present the best means,
whirl, in their opinion, may be adopted to induce the Members of
the Committees upon the Bills to give unremitting attention to
them, to exercise an impartial judgment upon their merits, and
afford to the House itself the best means of forming its opinion,
and decil,ing upon each case.
With this view your Committee have framed a series of Reso-
lutions containing the principal points upon which they think in-
formation ought to be conveyed to the House, and. they recom-
mend that each Committee to whieo one or snore Railway Bills be
referred, shall be directed to report to the House upon each of
these different points, anti. that the House should refuse to pro-
ceed with any Bill until it has received from the Committee spe-
cific replies, agreed to by vote, in answer to each of these
qugst ous,
These Resolutions are as follow

That each Committee be called upon to report the propmedi
capital of the Company formed for the execution of the project,
and the amount of any loans which they may be empowered to
raise under the provisions of the Bill; the amount of shares sub-
scribed for, and the deposits paid thereon, the names and resi-
dences of the Directors or Provisional Committee, with the
amount of shares taken by each ; the number of shareholders who
may be considered as having a local interest in the lire, and the
amount of capital subscribed for by them, and the number of
other parties, and the capital taken by them ; a Flatement of the
number cf shareholders subscribing for 2,0(X)!, end upwards, with
their names and residences, and the amount for which they have
subscribed.

2. The sufficiency or insufficienzv for agricultural, commercial,
manufacturing- or other purposes., of the present means of eon-
vevanee, and of commarneao.on between the proposed ternani,
stating the present. amount of traffiz by land or water, the average
charges made for passengers and goods, and time occupied.

3. The number of ~itsseno•ers and the weight and description
of the goods expeet,Al upon the proposed Railway.

4. The amount of income expeaed to arise from the Con-
veyance of passengers and goods, and in what proportion stating
also generally the deseripticn.of goods from which the largest re-
venue is anticipated.

5, Whether the proposed Railro'd be a complete and integral
hne between the termini specified, or a part of a' more extended
Van now in contemplation, and likely to be hereafter submitted to
L'arliament, and to what extent the calculations of remuneration
depend on such contemplated extrusion of the line.

6. Whether any, antt what, competing lines of Railroad there
are existing, and whether any, and what, are in progrcss or con-
templation, and to state, so far as circumstances will permit, in
what respects the proposed line is superior or inferior to the other
lines, if there be any.

7. To state what planes on the Railway are proposed- to be`
worked, either by assistant engines, sta;ionary or locomotive.
with the respective length's and inclinatio-,s of such planes.•
8. To advert to any peculiar engineering difilculf:es in the pro-
posed line, and to report the 'Manner in which it is intended
they should be overcome,
9. To state the tenpal, breadth and height, and means of
ventilation, of any pr'oposed tunnels, and whether the strata
through they are to pass are favourable or otherwise.
10. To state whether, in the lines proposed, the gradients
211 A curves are generally favourable or otherwise, and the steepest
gradient, exclusive of the inclined planes above referred ti, and.
the smallest radius of a curve.
11. To state the length of the main line of the proposed line tif
the Railroad, and of its branches respectively.
Ip. To state generally the fitness, in an engineering point, of view,
of the projected line of liatlrcad.
13. If it be intended that the Railroad should pass on a level
any turnpike road or highway, to call the particular attet.tron of
the 1-louse to that circumstance.
14. To state the amount of the estimates of the cost or other
expenses t
and o be
whether theyappear to be supported by evidences
and to be fully adequate for thea purpose.
15. To state what is the estimated charge of the annual expense;
of the Railroad when completed, 'and how far the calculations
which the charge is estimated, have been sufficiently proved. •
the calculations proved in evidence before the
Committee have satisfactorily
established, that the' revey
•

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