The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-24 00:00:00

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 24, 1831

of one half of the people of property in this country. That
there must be a Reform of some kind without delay, might
he taken to be decided by the vote of last night. But it
had always been his opinion that any measure of Reform
ought to be entertained with great caution, and proceeded
with slowly, so as to give the most ample time for consi-
deration and for discussion, arid that it ought not to be
brought forward and carried on with that breathless haste
with which his Majesty's Ministers had proceeded with
their measure. They were scarcely settled in their seats
when they came down with this scheme, which would, if
passed into a law, have the effect of unsettling and changing
all the institutions and constituency of the country,
except in the Universities—institutions and a consti-
tuency which might he said to have existed from time
immemorial in this kingdom. When he had, on a
former occasion, called this a new Constitution, he had
been derided ; but it was a new Constitution. They
bad already seen many new Constitutions among other
nations, but that a new Constitution should be proposed
for this country, which would upset all its old institu-
tions, was not what was expected by the people of
these realms, and it was natural for them to be alarmed.
He was not connected with any borough, nor did lie
know that he had influence enough to secure the return of
one Member. He had no interest in the matter, except
that which every man who loved his country, and wished
to live'and die under its ancient institutions, ought to have.
But he was adverse to all sweeping Reforms, for it was
impossible to make any material alteration in any one par-
ticular, without more or less affecting the rest. He had
been always ready to promote Reform where an abuse ex-
isted, but then he was for reforming gradually, and for
correcting abuses when it became necessary, and when it
was clear that a pressure existed. We had had the good
fortune to preserve our institutions unimpaired when all
around us tottered. He had seen no less than twenty-six
Constitutions produced in the course of the French revo-
lution, as fast as they were formed in the prolific brains of
the French philosophers. We ourselves had been great
Constitution-mongers. We had prepared a Constitution
for Corsica, and when the Lord Lieutenant that was to
govern the Island had called his Parliament together, it
had not sat half an hour when he was obliged to fly, and
take refuge from it in a fortress, from which he was glad
to escape, and get on board a British ship. A similar ex-
periment had been made in Sicily, and their Lordships
knew with what success and with what results.—

It was the attempting to reform all at once which
produced these practical evils; and it was, there-
fore, that he, whether he was right or wrong, was
disappointed with this measure. With cautious, slow,
temperate Reform—with Reform bit by bit, as abuses ap-
peared and the occasion called for it, lie would have been
pleased. His Noble Friend (Earl Grey) had said, that he
had not to defend himself against any well-founded charge
of inconsistency in supporting this measure ; but if his
Noble Friend chose to take up the cause of some of his
friends who now supported it, he would have much to de-
fend. Was the measure now proposed what was to be
expected from the speech in which his Noble Friend had
announced it, and was the speech a fitting prologue to the
plan ? It was the greatest of all humbugs to say that
Reform would be a panacea for all political evils. Ilis Noble
Friend had said that there would be little difference between
his Noble Friend and him, and that they only proposed to
do the same in a different way ; and was his Noble Friend
then aware of the desperate plunge which he was after-
wards to take ? But he hoped the Commons would modify
or alter it, for, as it stood at present, it was the most
dangerous that had ever been brought forward. He was
favourable to Reform as the occasion called for it ; but lie
slid not know that he could ever be persuaded to go to
that extent. He would not go into the subject more at
length at present.—(Hear, hear, from the LORD CHAN-
CELLOR.) He might, perhaps, fall under the lash of the
wit of the Noble and Learned Lord who interrupted him
in this irregular way ; but he insisted that, after the eulo-
gium which had been pronounced on his own measure, he
ought nut to allow the matter to pass without observation.
—(Earl GREY—Hear, hear.) He repeated, that since
his Noble Friend had chosen to start the discussion, he
ought to be answered.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not mean to enter
upon the important detads of the question at the present
moment; but it appeared to him, from what had falle❑
from the Noble Earl who ha•l just sat down, that he bad
forgotten that the subject was brought before the House,
not by the Noble Earl near him (Earl Grey), but by
the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Roden) ; and his
Noble Friend, in reply to the statement made by the Noble
Earl opposite, had only acted in accordance with the rule
laid down by the Noble Lord who bad just spoken—that
both sides should be heard. With respect to one part of

the charge made against Ministers by the Noble Lord op-
posite, of having introduced this measure with breathless
haste, he was relieved from the necessity of saying any
thing, because the votes of the other House would afford
a sufficient answer. This measure was not new to the
public, nor new to Parliament. It was announced at
the very moment the present Administration was formed.

:t was introduced into the other House of Parliament

three weeks ago, and debated on that occasion for seven
days, and after an interval of seven days, was again de-
bated two nights nn the second reading. The Noble
Earl would also find by the votes, that it was not
proposed to consider it in Committee until after the
Easter holydays ; and yet this was described as pass-
ing the Bill in breathless haste, without affording
to Parliament due opportunity of considering it with
attention.—(Hear, hear.)—But he contended that this
question had been under consideration over and
over again, and the more it had been considered
in Parliament or out of doors, the more he had cause
to be convinced that the Bill proposed by Govern-
ment, or something amounting to it, was the only security
against those disorders which the Noble Lord deprecated.
—(Hear.)—But let him tell the Noble Lord and others
out of doors, who had now at last come to a conviction
that some change was necessary in the representation of
the people, to state previous to the approaching recess
what their schemes of Reform were, so that Parliament
and the country might know what it was they proposed to
give under the name of Reform, but without the substance.
—(Hear, hear.)—Let then, the public judge between
their pla❑ and the plan of the present Government, which
was founded on the ancient principles of the Constitution
of this country. He said the ancient principles of the
Constitution, because he knew no other principlee but the
representation of the people, founded on the property and
knowledge of the country. In the course of ages, and
by the mutation of time, considerable change would he
made in the property and knowledge of the country, which
it became necessary to meet. The proposed Bill was
founded on a desire to connect with the representation of the
people all those accumulations of knowledge in some
quarters and of property in others, which, when left
unrepresented, formed the lever on which ambition and
treason worked against that Constitution which the Noble
Lord was so anxious to preserve. The Noble Lord had
abstained with the same caution which was observatde
elsewhere, from explaining what his scheme of Reform
was, but st►ll /Se had given some slight hints of what he
would wish to see dune. He bad told the House that he
was for moderate and progressive Reform. If the Noble
Lord meant by progressive Reform, that he meant perpe-
tual changes and perpetual uncertainty, that was a state of
things against which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) pro-
tested. Their Lordships had all been witnesses of the at-
tempt to reform in the• case of Penryn ; they had seen
the number of witnesses called on that occasion, and the
amount of public money wasted : and yet, after all, the
case of Penryn was thrown back upon the Noble Lord
who had introduced it. It was against progressive Re •
form that he entered his protest, and he should never
have given his consent to the great measure of Constitu-
tional Reform, had he not known it to be one of a per-
manent nature.

The Earl of CAERNARVON said, that he had not
accused Ministers of hurrying the measure on after it had
been introduced to Parliament, but only with having pre-
cipitately introduced it in the first instance.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he would not have
said a word on the present occasion if he had not been
personally alluded to by his Noble Friend. He did not
pretend to know the forms of the House, but he always
understood that a Member might, in the usual Parlia-
mentary manner, express his dissent from what another
Peer was stating as readily as he might express his assent
to it. In what he uttered he had intended to intimate in
the broadest possible manner his total dissent from his
Noble Friend, when he imputed to him a desire to hear
the arguments on one side, and not on the other, because
it Was insinuated that he could not meet them. He could
assure his Noble Friend that he never felt leas unable t)

meet the observations of an antagonist in the whole course
of his life than—he spoke it with all possible respect—he
did to meet the extremely shallow, unsubstantial, incon-
sistent, and contradictory arguments of which his .Noble
Friend had, contrary to the 19th standing order, which
declared that no Peer should speak twice on the same
question, addressed to the House. If lie felt any appre
hension of meeting his Noble Friend as an antagonist, he
was relieved from all difficulty by the triumphant answer
which his observations had received in the judicious, as
well as powerful and eloquent speech whirls had been de-
livered by the President of the Council. His Noble
Friend, in order to make good his charge that the Go-
vernment had urged on the Measure of Reform with breath-
less impatience, had been obliged to alter facts, and to cut
down time by a good deal more than one half. His Noble
Friend said that Ministers had been its office hardly three
weeks before they came down to Parliament with this
measure. Why, it was more than three months. That
period certainly was not a century, but it was double six
weeks. Himself and his colleagues came into office on the
22d of November, and the Bill was introduced on the Ist
of March, and it :was read a second time on the 22d of
March. If his Noble Friend had, like his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, been in correspondence with individuals in various
parts of the country, he was convinced he would have been
the first man to adopt the very course which Ministers
had pursued. If Ministers had delayed a little longer, he
believed they would have boen reproached with tardiness
by the very persons who now affected to condemn them
for precipitancy. He was sorry to perceive that there was
a disposition to carp at Ministers. They had not been ten
(lays in office before his Noble Friend opened his battery
upon them bit by bit—a sort of pop-gun firing.—(A
laugh.) If Ministers had not brought forward the mea-
sure at the earliest opportunity, would they not have been
taunted with having abandoned their professions? Would
it not have been said that they came into office pledged to
Reform, but had done nothing to redeem that pledge ?
For his part, he would rather meet the present charge
than that. His Noble Friend stated that he had a
plan of Reform, but he had omitted to give any de-
scription of it. He (the Lord Chancellor) had acceded
to the measure which had been proposed by Govern-
ment, wishing that less might have been done, but sa-
tisfied that less would not have satisfied the country. He
would rather have to deal with the ope❑ enemies of Re-
form—those who'deelared all improvement to be unneces-
sary, than with those who pretended to have a plan of
their own, but who had been all their lives hostile to
Reform. He thought that Parliament might learn a lesson
from the fate of the Catholic question. It would be wise
to grant Reform now which would satisfy the people; for
if the time were allowed to pass, there were many chances
to one that a plan, not so safe and wholesome, would be
forced upon Parliament hereafter. It was not unlikely,
too, that that plan would be proposed by the very men
who now objected to the present measure, but who would
turn round when they saw the storm was raging around
them, as they had done upon the Catholic question, anti
take credit for doing what they had all their lives been de-
claring they never would do.
Lord FARNHAM said a few words in explanation.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that he had given his
support to the measure proposed by Ministers, because he
thought that the people were entitled to have the repre-
sentative system improved. He would like to know
whether, in the Noble Earl's plan of Reform, the rotten
boroughs, and Gatton amongst the number were to be
retained ? The Noble Lord on the second bench (Lord
Monson) was much interested in a reply to this question.
Lord MONSON said, that after the pointed manner in
which he had been alluded to, he felt it necessary to ob-
serve that if he were convinced that the retention of the
close boroughs was detrimental to the true interests of the
people, he would be the first man to propose their aboli-
tion. He, however, did not entertain such an opinion.
He would state his reasons for opposing the Government
measure on the proper occasion.—(Hear. )
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
A message from the Commons brought up the Sugar
Duties Bill, and the Colonial Trade Bill.—Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, lt744cH 23.

The Srizaxica took the Chair at Three o'clock; there
were only one or two strangers in the gallery, and the
House was very thin of Members.
A great number of private Bills were forwarded a stage.
Sir W. GUISE presented petitions from eleven places
in the county of Gloucester in favour of the measure of
Reform.

Thy Liverpool and Chester Railway Bill was read a se-
cond time, and ordered to be committed.

Mr. LITTLETON preseuted petitions from several
places in Staffordshire in favour of Reform, and a similar
one from Burton-upon-Trent.

Mr. EGERTON presented a petition from the county
of Chester in favour of the plan of Reform. The Hon.
Alember regretted that be could not conscientiously support
the Bill. He must, however, say that many of its provi-
sions had his support.
An Hort. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
said he gave the Bill his most hearty support, and if Mi-
nisters consented to any alteration they should have his
opposition.
Mr. EGERTON then presented petitions from Stock-
port and Macclesfield in favour of the plan of Reform.
Mr. JAMES BROUGHAM presented a great number
of petitions from various places in favour of Reform.
Mr. PORTMAN presented a petition from the county
of Dorset in favour of Reform. The Hon. Member said
the petition was most numerously signed, and every indi-
vidual who signed it was a person of property.
Mr. PORTMAN presented petitions from Lyme Regis,
Sherborne, and from four other places in the county of
Dorset, praying for Reform, and one from the town of
Blandford, against the Reform Bill.

The HON. 31E14/13Elt then presented a petition from Dor-
setshire, in favour of Reform. Great care, the Hon.
Member said, had been taken that none but the mmt re-
spectable signatures should be subscribed to this petition,
and that it spoke the strong and unanimous opinions:of the
county was to be inferred, because an opposite petition
bad been got up at the same place, and had received only
34 signatures. In supporting the Reform Rill, he was
convinced that he was acting in conformity with the wishes
of a very great majority of his constituents.

Mr. H. BANKES very much doubted if the Hon.
Member were correct in his last observation. One petition
against Reform had been presented from a body of his con-
stituents, arid if more numerous petitions of the same na-
ture were not sent into that House, it was merely because
persons did not usually petition for what they already pos-
sesed.

Mr. CALCRAFT was friendly to the principle of Re-
form, but he would struggle in the Committee against
many of the details of the pending measure. Dorset was
a passive county, and did not much like to interfere in
politics, and its petitioners were therefore not strong or
numerous.

Mr. G. DAWSON said that probably the Hon. Mem-
ber for Wareham felt himself peculiarly :entitled to repre-
sent a passive county. He could not concede to the Hon.
Member the claims he put forth to excessive purity upon
this occasion.
Mr. PORTMAN believed that the country would be in
a state of great danger unless they could support the
Crown and aristocracy by uniting the people in sympathy
with that House, and which was to be done only by a
thorough Reform.
Mr. H. BANKES explained. The Hon. Member for
Preston had declared that he had given his vote for Reform
only upon the ground of his having succeeded in making
his bargain with Ministers in favour of the electors of that
borough. Probably the Hon. Member for Wareham had
similar success in relation to his borough.
. .

Mr. CALCRAFT wished the Hon. Member for Preston
pleasure at his success, and he regretted that he had no
chance of being equally serviceable to his constituents at
Wareham. It would have been inconsistent with all his
former conduct had he not supported the Reform Bill. His
first vote in that House had been for the abolition of the
slave trade, his second for the repeal of the Test and Cor-
poration Acts, his third in favour of Parliamentary Reform,
and the fourth in favour of Catholic Emancipation. These
had been under Mr. Fox ; all the measures had been even-
tually carried, except Reform, and if that were longer de-
layed, he believed that the country would have most se-
riously to lament its postponement.
Mr. HUNT said there had been no bargain between
him and Ministers. When the Reform Bill was brought
forward the Noble Lord (John Russell) stated that there
would be no interference with the life-interests of voters.
This was sufficient to protect his (Mr. Hunt's) consti-

tuent.:, as he found, on inquiry, a doubt having been
thrown on the subject.
Colonel DAVIES presented a petition from Worcester
'a favour of Reform.
Mr. BALFOUR presented three petitions from places
in Scotland, against parts of the Reform Bill.
Mr. W. FATTEN presented a petition from. Eccles in
favour of Reform.

Sir R. HILL presented petitions from Wellington, Whit-
church, and several other places, against negro slavery.
Lord KILLEEN presented four petitions from parishes
. _

in Meath ; one for an amendment of the Grand Jury
Laws; another complaining of distress ; another for a re-
peal of the Union ; and the fourth in favour of Reform.

SUGAR DUTIES' BILL.

The Sugar Duties Bill was read a third time, on the
motio❑ of the CIIANCELLOR of the ExcHEQusa, and passed.

CIVIL LIST.

The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER having moved
the order of the day for going into Committee on the Civil
List, for the purpose of receiving the report,
Mr. PHILLPOTTS said he did not know till this
morning that it was the intention of the Noble Lord to
propose to take the report into consideration. He was,
therefore, unprepared to bring on a motion which be bad
intended to take that opportunity of making.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
wish to.take the Hon. Member by surprise, and would
postpone the Committee till to• morrow.

Mr. PEIILLPOTTS gave notice, that when the ques-
tion was brought forward to-morrow, he should move that
in lieu of the pensions being charged on the Civil List, a
sum should be added to the privy purse, and placed under
the controul of his Majesty.