The Sun.
London, England, 1822-04-23 00:00:00

IRISH DEEDS.

The Earl of BLEstrcroN, before calling the
attention of the House to the Order of the Day,
wished to notice a paragraph which had ap-
peared in an Irish paper, and to caution the
Editor against what he might think proper here-
after to publish. He (Lord Blesinton) had
already explained in the House that he had never
wished to attack the University of Dublin'. Yet,
notwithstanding this explanation, a person had
chosen to address a letter to the Editor of the
paper in question, headed " Lord Blesinton
versus the University of Dublin," in which he
charged him (Lord Blesinton) with having at-
tacked individuals with whom he was intimately
acquainted, and for whom he had the highest re-
spect. This letter was signed " Vindex," and
if such conduct were repeated he should look to
the House for protection. The Noble Earl then
moved the Order of the Day for going into a.
Committee on the Irish Deeds Registry Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was persuaded that

the,Noble Earl would not press this Bill in the
absence of a Noble and Learned Lord (Lord
Redesdale) who objected to it, because he con-
ceived that a small amendment of the Act of
Queen Anne would answer all the purposes of
the present measure.
The Earl of BLESINTON said his object in
going into a Committee was that the Bill
should be printed, as the amendments were con-
sidcrable. It was not his intention to force the
Bill through the House ; he should therefore now
only propose to go into the Committee pro forma,
in order that the Bill be printed with its amend-
ments.

The Bill was then committed pro forma, the
Report received, and the Bill ordered to be
printed and to be recommitted.
The Innkeepers' Rates Bill went through a
Committee, and the Report was received.
Adjourned till Wednesday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
ROYAL BURGHS—SCOTLAND.
Mr. LINSAY presented Petitions from the Burghs of Perth,
Egremont, Inverary, and other places in Scotland, praying to
be heard by Counsel against the Royal Burgh Accompts Bill.
Laid on the table.'
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Mr. DRUllll.l4sKliireeented a Petition from the owners
and occupiers of land in the neighbourhood of Perth, N. 8.,
complaining of Agricultural Distress.—Laid on the table. ••
Sir W. LEMON presented a similar Petition from owners
and occupiers of land in Cornwall. The petitioners considered
that their distress was. principally caused by a lavish expendi-
ture of publiC money; and over-taxation.
Mr. GRENFELL bore testimony to the respectability of
the petitioners. With, regard to Petitions of this nature, in
general, he would take this opportunity to say, that,the preva-
lence and amount of distress in the Agricultural classes was
much less than it had been, and was fast diminishing. He
thought it proceeded from temporary causes, and was now sa-
tisfied that he always had been right, in saying there was no
cause for despondency as to the state of the country. In his
opinion, every part of Great Britain exhibited indications of
increasing prosperity and wealth—(Hear !)—and if the country
continued to be well governed, in spite of the fatal blunders
which had been committed in legislation, the country would be
completely restored in two or three years.—(Hear !)
Mr. CURWEN did not think the distress of the country had
been exaggerated. The Petition having been read, was then
laid on the table.
WOOLLEN MANUFACTURES.
Mr. MANSFIELD presented a Petition from certain Wool-
len Manufacturers of Leicester, complaining of the intention of
the Legislature to, repeal certain restrictive laws which have
hitherto protected that trade, and praying that should any such
measure be passed, the taxes which bore upon the Woollen
trade might be taken off.—Laid on the-table.
' WINDOW TAX—IRELAND.
Mr. ELLIS presented a Petition from the inhabitants of
several Parishes in Dublin, praying for a repeal of the Window
Tax. He was not one of those who was willing to encroach
upon any source of revenue requisite for the payment of the
-public creditor; but he must say that he thought upon every
principle of public faith, public feeling, justice, and humanity,
this relief ought to be afforded. In one parish out of 1,500
houses, 900 were closed and insolvent on account of this tax ;
and in another 250 out of 640.—Read, and laid on the table.
Sir ELIAB HARVEY presented Petitions complaining of
Agricultural Distress from different places in Essex.—Ordered
to be printed.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from certain
Unitarians of the City of London, praying for an alteration In
certain parts of the Marriage ceremony.—Laid on the table.
The Hon. Member postponed the motion relative to Ilchester
Gaol, which stood for Wednesday next, to Wednesday the
15th of May. •
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition from 8,000 Inha-
bitants of Bristol, praying that no concessions may be granted
to: the Roman Catholics of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman
observed, that the Petitioners pointed at the forthcoming mo-
tion relative to Catholic Peers. Petitions of this nature had
been presented from Glasgow and Liverpool, and he hoped
their example would be universally followed.
Mr. PLUNKETT did not rise for the purpose of creating
any discussion on the subject before the House, but merely to
correct an error into which the Honourable Member who
spoke last had fallen. He had expressed, a hope that the

example of Glasgow and Liverpool would be followed with 1
reference to the Petitions stated by the Honourable Gen-
tleman to have been addressed to the House by them on the
subject of the Catholic Claims. Now, the Honourable Gentle-
man must be mistaken as to Liverpool ; for certainly no Peti-
tion had been presented from that place of the nature he alluded
to—probably he meant Bristol Then as to Glasgow, it was
fitting the House should know that the Petition so designated
was not from the county of Glasgow, but from the Synod of
that place, consisting of only one person. He had no ob-
jection to join the Hon. Gentleman in the hope he tiad ex=
pressed, that the proud example of the Synod of Glasgow
would be followed by other equally numerous and important
bodies.—(A laugh.)
Mr. PEEL said, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett)
was himself in error, when he stated that the Synod of Glasgow
consisted of but one person. The Presbyterian Synod of that
place was composed of many, but the Petition was signed by
one, for the whole body, as was frequently done.
Mr. PLUNKETT explained that, he only meant to say that
one person only had addressed that House.
Mr. BRIGHT expressed a hope that the example of the
Presbyterians of Scotland would be followed by all Dissenters
in the country. He hoped all Christians would exercise their
right of addressing that House on the subject ; and he would
even maintain that in speaking on that subject they were en=
titled to complain of the heavy fingers the Papists had placed
on them in times past. The Petition was then laid on the table.
Lord EBRINGTON presented a Petition complaining of
Agricultural Distress, from the town Of Tiverton in Devon.
shire. Laid on the table and ordered to be printed.
Lord MOUNTCHARLES presented a Petition from the
Tanners of Donegal, praying for relief in consequence of the
heavy duties on leather.—Laid on the table.
Mr. S. RICE presented a Petition from the Spirit Retailers
of Limerick, complaining of the heavy duties upon Spirit Li-
cences.—Laid on the table and ordered to be printed.
TYTHE-SYSTEM—IRELAND.
In reply to some observations from Sir H. PARNELL, which
were inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. GOULBURN said, that he felt himself called upon to
repeat the assurance he had formerly given the House, that the
present Government of Ireland had, since its appointment,
given the most earnest attention to the subject of the tythe-sys-
tem in Ireland. The House, however, must be aware of the
other important duties which had pressed upon the Govern-
ment of that country of late ; and it was owing to the difficulties
thus thrown in the way, that it was out of his power at this mo-
ment to state when he should be able to submit a measure on
that subject. With regard to another branch of the same ques.
tion, viz. as to a mode of facilitating the collection of tythes, he
did not despair of being able to introduce that subject to the
House in the course of the present Session. But he could not
justify to himself making a hasty pledge on a question of such
greatimportance.

Mr. PEEL'S BILL.
Mr. WESTERN gave notice, that he would, on the 2d of
May, submit a motion on the subject of the Bill for effecting a
Change in the Currency.
COLONIAL IMPOSTS.
Mr. HINE presented a Petition from seventy-two out of
seventy-nine British Merchants residing at Rio Janeiro, in
South America. The Petitioners complained of the operation
of a Bill which was passed in 1814, enabling the consul-gene-
ral of Rio Janeiro to levy a duty of one half per cent. upon the
freightage of all British merchandize, which was felt as highly
oppressive. The Bill was passed without any one whose inte-
rests were affected by it knowing any thing about it, and the
nature of it might be judged of from the circumstance of its
having raised the salary of the consul-general .from 1,5001. a-
year to 9,0001. by fees alone. But even with- this enormous
allowance, that officer neglected his duty, not living in the
town of Rio. He had farmed his profits to the vice-consul,
from whom again it had fallen into the hands of a clerk. At
least two and a half per cent. was levied on all British mer-
chandise, and that for merely certifying the sale of it. This
was three times the amount of the duties exacted at Lisbon, or
any other port. Goods could be conveyed in American ships
without any duty, and the probable effects of this system
would be comprehended, when it was known that the
number of British ships going to.that port had increased since
1815, from 75 to 155. The Petitioners prayed that this Bill
might be repealed, and another introduced, tending to place
' British commerce on an equal footing with that of other coun-
tries. This prayer he should himself attempt to carry into ef-
fect when a return, for which he had moved, should be laid on
the table. He moved that the Petition should be brought up,
and then, if there were no objection, he would move to renew
the order of last year, for certain returns, that they might come
to the discussion with proper information on the subject.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not rise to oppose
the motion, but to state, that at the proper time every explana-
tion would be given.—[The Noble Marquis spoke with much
difficulty, as he evidently laboured under severe indisposition,
from a cold, which made him nearly inaudible.)
Mr. T. WILSON said, as the Noble Marquis, from the se-
vere cold under which he laboured, could not enter into the
subject at present, hoped he might be allowed to say, that he
• trusted it would be the care of his Majesty's Governitent to
guard against a measure, intended for the protection of our
commerce, being turned into an engine of oppression.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. HUME then moved an Address to the Crown, praying
for a return of the total amount of contributions levied on Eng-
lish ships at the Brazils—a specification of the names of the
parties to whom the payments were made, and other papers
relative to the same subject.—Agreed to.

SCOTCH BURGHS.
Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Corporation of
the Royal Burgh of Perth, against the Lord Advocate's Bill
for the regulation of the election of Magistrates in that Burgh.
—Ordered to lie on the table.
Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Royal
Guildry of Perth, on the same subject.—Ordered to lie on the
table. •
Mr. Kina, from the British Museum, presented the usual
Annual Accounts and Estimates.—Ordered to lie on the table

MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL,

Dr. PHILLIMORE postponed the second reading of 'the
Marriage Act Amendment Bill from Friday next to Friday
the 3d May. He did this because he was unwilling that it
should stand in the way of the discussion on the Agricultural
Distress, and had no intention of postponing it beyond the day
he had named.
A Petition was presented from George Gordon Lord Byron
praying to be heard by his Agents against an Intlosure
Ordered to lie on the table.
STATE OF IRELAND.

Sir J. NEWPORT, in rising pursuant to the notice which
he had given, begged to assure the House that he had never
felt greater embarrassment than he experienced on the present
occasion. It had repeatedly fallen to his lot to call the atten-
tion of the House to the affairs of Ireland, and at no period'.
had the affairs of that country more imperiously demanded the
attention of Parliament than they did at this moment. He
was sorry to say, that having repeatedly failed in his efforts to
prevail upon the House to interfere in the way in which he
thought they ought to interfere, he now came forward, not
with reluctance, but with very unpleasant feelings, growing
out of former failure. He experienced these because the mo-
tion which he considered it his duty now to submit to the
House was very similar to that which he had made in the year
1816, and he could not but remember the very different cir-
cumstances under which he had come forward on that occasion.
In 1816 he was supported by three most able, intelligent, and
enlightened friends, who were no longer there to favour such
an effort. • It was his misfortune., or rather it was that of the
country, that two of them had since that period sunk into the
grave. When he mentioned the name of Ponsonby, it was
unnecessary for him to enlarge on the talents of his late Right
Hon. Friend. These were well known to that House, as were
the opportunities which that. Right Hen. Gentleman had had
of acquiring information relative to the affairs of Ireland, and
the skill with which he had availed himself of them. When
he mentioned the second name, he repeated a name so iden-
tified with Ireland, that• no man could doubt the relation in
which the wearer of it had stood with respect to that country.
Mr. Grattan had through a long series of years watched over
the interests of Ireland, and had combated in her cause against
those who favoured the Union in the Irish House of Commons.
The Irish Parliament having been put an end to, Mr. Grattan,
transferred to the English House of Commons, had fought the
battles of his country with the same energy, zeal, and perse-
verancehere with which in Ireland he had struggled against
those who wished for the extinction of that separate Parlia-
ment of which he had been a Member. The third indivi-
dual to whom he had alluded was still living, and had a seat
in that House, though on the present occasion he could not
calculate on his assistance. That such was the case in the in-

PRICE SEVENPENCt.

stance of the Right Honourable Gentleman to Whom he rep
ferred, he lamented on his account and on that of the country.
It was necessary that he (Sir J. Newport) should: detain the
House for some time, but he begged to assure them that it
would be his object to condense what he had to Oka as much
as.the importance of the interests which he undertook. to advos.
cate would allow him to do, and he requested the House to fols
low him while he traced the situation of Ireland from its causes,
pointed out the progress of the evil from the . commencement
up to the present time, with as sincere an attachment to,the in-
terest;-of both countries as any man in that Hotise could boast.
He hoped he should not be tedious. It would be necessary to
make sonic reference to figures' but knowing how irksome
these were to the House he would do so no More than was abs
solutely necessary. He, however, must make some use of
figures to shew the progiess,of Ireland to the state of degrades
tion and disorganization in which that country was found at
present. He would attempt to shew the Causes of the evil, and
he prayed the House to look well at them, and thus enable
themselves to determine what Was the proper remedy to be
applied. They would doubtless feel it their duty to do so,
for he could conceive nothing more fallacious than for a Pars
liament to proceed to legislate, where their interference was
demanded, without first, applying themselVeS tO ascertain the
cause of that evil which made their interference necessary._
Till this was known, it was impossible that they could be com-
petent to afford relief. It was unnecessary for him to endear
your to inipress on the House the magnitude of the ques.
Lion which now demanded their attention. It respected a
population in numbers immense, and an area of land lines;
ampled for fertility. Why such a country, with a population
signalized by the great deeds sonic from among them had perms
formed in every quarter of the globe, should be placed in a
situation which made perpetual coercion necessary, was Oat
into which they had to inquire. They had to decide What
it was that made a penal code, like that of Ireland, suitable
for such a people—why the Government could not be admit
nistered but with the aid of a system of perpetual punish:.
ment. Ireland presented an area of about 19,000,000 of English
acres ; its population had been estimated as follows at different
periods :
In 1731 a. • - 1,670,0001 In 1789 s s 4,000,000
In 1747 - - 2,000,000 lln 1814 - - 6,000,060
And by enumeration at the pfesent day, it appeared that the
population of. Ireland now amounted to nearly 7,000,000. It
was then in the case of seven millions of people that they were
now called upon to act, with a view of snatching them from a
state of disorganization, and placing them in a situation to
taste the blessings (which he was sorry to say they had not yet
known), of the protecting care of the Legislature of Great
Britain. He could attribute the causes of the evil to but one
source-:-he would sum them all up in three words, expressive of
the principle, if principle it could be called, on which Ireland
had been governed through successive ages. The maxim
acted upon in Ireland was the opposite of that which it
was thought wise to adopt everywhere else—it was simply
this " Divide and govern."—(Hear !)—lt was owing to the
miserable policy that had obtained of attempting to govern the
people of that ill-fated .country by sowing divisions among
them, that those calamitous results had been witnessed which
they had npw to deplore. That it was the object of those to
whom the Government Of Ireland had been confided to set one
part of the. population against the other, could not be denied.
Were proof demanded, it could be supplied by the letter which
a former Lord Chief Justice had written to the Archbishop of
Canterbury, deprecating certain measures which were then on
the point of being adopted, because " they would tend to unite
the people." The progress of the measures which had been
thought suited to the state of Ireland had been marked by a
deficiency in the revenue. He had no doubt that if a course
different from that which had been taken at the time the Irish
Parliament was extinguished had been preferred, that an op-
posite result would have been witnessed. Had taxation been
diminished instead of increased, its produce would have been
greater. V was manifest that the absence of the large land-
holders, deprecated as one of the greatest of the evils which af-
flicted Ireland, was likely to be increased by the measure of the
Union. That act had a tendency to withdraw from the country
its natural protectors. The Gentry of Ireland removed to Eng-
land, and consigned their territory to other hands—to those who
had not the same anxiety for the welfare of those with Whom they
were thus connected. Deprived of the fostering care of their
native gentry, hat was taken from them which the late Mr.
Sheridan had declared it was peculiarly the duty of the Eng.
lish Government to supply, that interest in each other's wel-
fare which should bind the several classes together. He would
say, that it was the peculiar duty of Parliament to combat
the grpwth of that disease which had proved the bane of Ire-
land, and to counteract by every possible means the effect
which the Act of Union was likely to produce in the way he
had described. If the absentees were.before too numerous, it
was the duty of Parliament to guard against their further in-
creasing them by an improvident mode of taxation. Up to
the period of the Union, Ireland had been lightly taxed. It
ought to have continued lightly taxed, to induce the gentry; to
remain there. The contrary course had been taken, and the
consequence Was, while the amount of taxation had increased,
its produce had diminished. He (Sir J. Newport) had again
and again opposed himself to this system. His voice had been
raised against the imposition of such heavy taxes as, had been
laid on, and he had pointed out to GoVernment that they would
reap as the fruits of their policy every harvest but the right one.
He had predicted that they would reap a large harvest of dis-
content, but not of revenue. They found the result what he
had declared it must prove. The absentees had increased. A
considerable number of the Irish gentry, broken up in their
circumstances, had left Ireland to take refuge in the watering
places of this country. They had given up their establishments
on the other side of the water to come and vegetate in lodg-
ings here. He considered that no greater evil could fall on a
country than to have taxes increased, that while they were felt
oppressively heavy by the people, they ceased to be pro-
ductive to the Treasury. Since 1608 additional taxes had been
imposed on Ireland which it had been ealctilated would pro-
duce 4,000,0001., but instead of doing this, the amount of the
revenue derived from Ireland had decreased. The four
mill:eats thus laid on could not by possibility be paid, and
poverty, had paralysed the hand of the tax-gatherer, and pet
limits to the omnipotence of Parliament. What, had been
paid had been partly taken from the capital, and not from the
income of the country ; and that which he had foretold six
years ago had come to pass, and it was seen that additional
taxes served but to diminish the revenue. While this enor-
mous increase of taxation wits going on, calculating on a
revenue -which it'-had been found impossible to raise, a
debt had been contracted for Ireland, so great that had it
continued to increase its ultimate amount would have baf-
fled al/ calculation. It had, however, been closed with what
he called an act of bankruptcy, (he could give it no other name,)
for on the Ist of Jan. 1817, the consolidation of the Exche-
quers of the two countries had taken place, and this coun-
try had taken upon herself the debt contracted for Ireland.
An Hon. Gentleman, he• remembered, had put a cmestion to
him (Sir J. Newport)' as to when he thought Ireland would be
able to pay off part of the sum which had been borrowed on
her account. His answer to the question was—" Never."—s
This had caused a laugh, upon which he had declared that what
he had said was spoken in serious earnest. The taxes thrown
on Ireland frons the time of the Union„amounting to two seven-
teenths of the whole revenue of the Empire, were so enor-
mous that they could not be paid. He had said at the time
that if one seventeenth had been laid-on instead of two, it might
have been paid. In fact Ireland had paid in that proportion,
or rather morn. The sums borrowed to make up the other
seventeenth England had, and still has to pay. Notwith-
standing the burdens thrown on' the people, such was the
fertility of the country, as his Right Hon. Friend the late
Member for Dublin had said, for which Providence had done
so much, and man so little, except to mar what PrOvidence
had done, that in spite of all, its exports increased. He was,
howeVer, sorry to say that the effect of these was not like what
it might have been under a better system. It had been re-
marked in 1747, by Sir H. Boyle, that no two millions of
people in Europe consumed so little of the producithey raised,
as the two millions who formed the population of Ireland. So
now he (Sir J. Newport) would say, that no seven millions of
people consumed so little of the produce they raised as the
seven millions that peopled Ireland. But why was this ?It
was almost impossible that it could have happened but for the
system of Government which had been acted upon. 'lf the ex-
ports had increased it was owing to the astonishing. fertility of
the country ; it was owing. to the bounty of. Providence hav-
ing outstripped the oppression of man. It was time that the
attention of Parliament should be turned to this important sub-
ject. He had brought forward a motion like that which he had
now to offer, in 1816. After some delay the discussion was fixed
for April 24, in that year. The Noble Lord opposite had then
said he hoped that on that day the debate would be marked not
only by a full attendance, but by their giving it their undi-
vided attention. He had said it was peculiarly the duty of

Ilea House to watch aver the rising greatness of Ireland, and
so seek a remedy for these evils of which she complained. For
'' the rising greatness of Ireland," he kpew net to what such
word; could be applied. Ile did not understand how they could
'be uied, unless it was in the manner of the sarcastic remark
made by a peasant in she Low Countries, who, when Phillip
wee losing all his conquests, had said, ." the more that
was taken from them, greater they were proved." In no
other sense could he understand what had been said of " the
riein~tgreaelese of Ireland." He could comprehend what was
rosent icy the evils which then required a , remedy. He hoped
the Noble Lord was by this time prepared to come forward
w;th-that remedy, which be thought was called for in 1816.-
-1k knew he should be told that the person now at the head of
the
.I:eel' Government had been but a short time there. He
had, however, he must say, it appeared to him, been there long
enough to form a pretty correct notion,- with his previous
"knowledge of the subject, of the real state of the case.—
itut all the Members of the Administration were not new
to the subject. The Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment had long been Chief Secretary for Ireland, and
ealiet be well acquinted with the situation of the country.—
This subject had been brought forward else-Where, and the head
of the Treasury had replied to a question.pot o him oh the af-
-Sane "ef Ireland, " that the tithe question', the should speak on
teat presently) " was under the consideration 'of Government,
end tie had no difficulty in saying that the''•right to recover
tither was the same in England asin Ireland, yet the situation of
the two countries was such, that that was practicable in England
which was impracticable in Ireland, and therefore some mea-
sure to correct the evil appeared necessary." This had been
said in 1816. He hoped the child which was then an infant
had now gained years of discretion, and that something to re-
medy the grievances which had so long been the subjects of
eemeelaint would eel last he done. What he should propose to
n4-hi would be an Address, which came to this--that the Legis-
liteare, having yielded to the Government three months since
• those powers of coercion which they had considered to be
netes:/ery to suppress subordination and outrage, they now
'felt themselves called upon to adopt measures of concilia-
tien. and relief, with a view of raising the population of Ire-
:awed from its present wretched and degraded state. He, for
his own part, considered with his Right Honourable Friend,
the NI ember for Dublin, that exile and death were not the only
instruments which a Government should use to sustain its au
c` but they were rather to be regarded as miserable ex-
nedients the use of which, betrayed the absence of all that de-
• -served the name of GoVernment. On this principle he would act,
-end having proved himself ready on an extraordinary emergency •
to arm the Government with powers stronger than'those en-
- rrested to them by the ordinary laws, he now desired to shew
that' these were not to be considered as a part of the system,
• but as a departure from the system to be laid down for the
Government of Ireland, not as the rule of Government (God
forbid that it ever should be!) but as an exception from
ohe
,rule. The country' had felt, and he hoped was by this
time convinced of, the steady determination of the Govern-
ment—of the Legislature, and he, hoped of every Member
in that House, to punish outrage and insurrection. It was
now fit that they should look to the evils which beset the
country, and endeavour to supply a remedy, where a reme-
dy was necessary. This he wished to declare, and also to
set forth that it was their object to adopt with respect to Ire-
land a mild and equitable system of law which could alone
produce that change in the minds of the people which should
lift them to that state in point of moral habits which was inse-
parable from good government, and without which no good
government could exist. If he could suppose that that House
m legislating for Ireland might be operated upon by any
selfish motives, he could shew them that in proportion as
Ireland had declined, the demand for English manufactures
had fallen off. As taxation in Ireland•had been augmented, the
call for English goods had diminished, because those who were
formerly consumers ceased to be so, as they had no longer the
means of paying. He now came to consider the rights of the
Church. For these no man could have a greater respect than
he had. He, had he been in Parliament, as certainly he was
not at the time of the Union, would never have consented to
such an adjustment with respect to certain tithes, which was
then proposed. But while anxious to protect the rights of the
Church, he was not content that the rights of the people should ,
go for nothing. How did it happen that infinitely more was ,
taken from the people as Sithes than went to the Church ?
There was a perpetual contention between the tithe farmers
and the wretched paupers, from whose food, of whatever de-
eeription, infinitely more was taken than ever found its way
to the Clergy. Before he concluded he could not but declare
:-it to be his opinion that that change must be made in the penal
code which should admit every class of subjects to a just
participation in the blessings 'of the British Constitution.—
On this corner stone he would say, whatever was to be clone
-for the relief of Ireland, ought to be founded. He did not
say that this alone would suffice to remove all the evils com-
plained of. It was inconceivable that grievances which were
the growth of centuries, springing from that horrible code
which was not a system of law, but a system opposed to all
Jaws human and divine, which arrayed in deadly opposition
father against son, brother against brother, and friend against
friend. It was inconceivable that evils so deeply rooted could
at once be removed by any change that might be devised. He
- could not say such an effect would be produced, by reforming
the penal code, but this he would say, that was the basis on
which their measures for the relief of Ireland ought to be
grounded. He knew that it lied been tauntingly said, the vices
• imputed to the population of Ireland justified the coercion to
which they were subjected. But how, he would ask, did it
happen that these imputed vices attached to them only on their
s own soil, and were not found in connection with the Irish cha-
racter elsewhere ? The question was easily answered. It was
because in Ireland that penal code was in force, which did not
extend to other parts. That systene which set father against
• son, and brother against brother, was not felt elsewhere, and
the natural feelings of benevolence and good will which glowed
as warmly in an Irish heart as in that of any human being,
were then called fairly into play.h-Those who doubted this
knew little of the Irish character. The address with which he
way about to conclude, though couched in terms as temperate"
. as could be used, was, he understood, to lee put aside as not
proper to be adopted at this moment. Such had been the lan-
guage held through the last two-and-twenty years. It had al-
ways been said the-right time had not yet arrived—that the at-
tempt to relieve ought to be put off till to-morrow. He hoped'
tide House would brook no longer delay, for that to-mor-
mw never would arrive:; if the Legislature did not interfere on
behalf of Ireland till the Government called on them to do so.
The Right Honourable Baronet concluded by submitting the
following motion :
"-'hat an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to
represent that the melancholy details contained in his Majesty's
rracious Speech from the Throne, and the documents laid be-
e,rie us at the opening of the Session of Parliament respecting
es internal disquiet of considerable districts of 'lreland, oblige
us to consider the state of that extensive and valuable part of
the United Kingdom as most distressing and afflicting to the
Legislature, and dangerous in an extreme degree to the well-
beartg of the empire. ,
" That under circumstances of daring insubordination to the
laws, atrocious outrage and insurrection, the Legislature deemed
it to he its first duty to arm the Executive Government with all
the powers which were considered requisite to punish outrage,
•
to suppress insurrection, and to restore its accustomed and sa-
lutary energy to the administration of constitutional law.
" We trust that the confidence placed by Parliament in the
, Exettutive Government of Ireland will be found to have been
justified by the mild and temperate, yet firm exercise of these
extraordinary powers, and calculated to produce most beneficial
present results.
" That having thus provided for this calamitous emergency,
with reference to its immediate pressure, we feel ourselves now
called upon to look to the greet ulterior object, of a progressive
and permanent amelioration of the condition and moral habits
of the people.
" Decidedly impressed with a conviction of the alarming con- ,
sequences which 'must result from a longer _continuance of the
disorganised state of Ireland, which has compelled the frequent
recurrence of-applications to Parliament for a suspenston of
• constitutional law, and feeling the serious responsibility which
must attach on the Ministers of the Crown and on this House,
- from longer delaying to examine fully and effectually into the
causes of that disorganization, we desire to assure his Majesty
of the zealous co-operation of this House in the immediate
pursuit of this most desirable object, and in perfecting such a
system of remedial measures as may be recommended by his
Majesty to secure to that portion of the United Kingdom the
ueintsrrupted protection of mild and equal laws, and under
their benign and salutary influence to effect that valuable im-
provement in the -condition of the people, which is indispen-
sably connected with the best interests and prosperity of- the
State."
Mr. GOULBURN said, he rose with great embarrassment,
on a subject so difficult and important, and the more so as he
had been but recently connected with the Government of the
country to which the motion referred, while he felt the inferio-
rity of his talents to those of the Right Honourable Batonet
who made the motion. He felt it therefore necessary to claim
the indulgence of the House while he made some observations
on what had fallen from the Right Hon: Bart. whose example
he would follow in not trespassing long upon their time. With
respect to the question itself, he believed he should not err in
- stating the object of the Right Honourable Mover, as well as
the flew of the House, to be, that the motion should rather
promote a discussion on the affairs of Ireland, than that the
Address itself should be carried. It was not necessary to spend
much time on the facts on which the arguments were founded ;
nobody was ignorant of the unfortunate and lamentable disc
turbances which had occurred in Ireland ; nor need he dwell
upon the wise measure of Parliament by granting extraordi-
• ussry powers to the Executive for .their suppression, which

powers, he could assure the House, were exercised, as the Right
Honourable Baronet seemed to allow„with moderation, and not
without firmness. He could also assure the House, that Go-
vernment was disposed to inquire into the nature of the evils.—
He would also admit that those,extraordinary ,measures were
aiot to be the rule of Government. They had the higher duty to
perform of ascertaining the real ground of the, disorders and their
remedy ; but he could not go the length of the Resolutions on
this point, and allow that whatever measures were necessary to
effect a permanent cure,of those evils, the present was the time
for entertaining such a proposition. It did not appear to him
that the House ought to adopt the Resolutions, even if they were
in every part true. This was not Parlianientary practice.—lf
he gave to the motion the simple meaning which the words
conveyed, it was for an Address instructing the Crown in the
duties of Government. It was no great compliment to the.
Government of Ireland that such instruction was necessary,—
it was no compliment to them to suppose that they were eo
destitute of knowledge as to be told that it was not only neces-
sary to punish crime but to seek out the cause. But the mo-
tion went somewhat further. Every one must know that the
object of such Resolutions was to prove that a Government so
advised by the House was supposed to have hitherto neglected
the performance of its duties. He must positively deny that
the present Government of Ireland were at all liable to the im-
putation which the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet was cal-
culated to cast upon them. If that Government had been long
employed in the administration of Irish affairs—if they had
had a full period for the consideration of all the topics which
the Right Hon. Baronet had mentioned, and of many others
which it was necessary to consider, then, indeed, he wculd ad-
mit that there Might, be some ground for doubting tither their.
willingness or their capacity to enter into the investiZation
which was imperatively demanded of them. But he begged to
impress on the House the short period which the actual Go-
vernment of Ireland had been in power. They had been in
the exercise of their authority for little more than three months,
and they were now called upon at once to remedy the evils of
centuries, or to submit to the censure conveyed in such an Ad-
dress as that proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. Such a
course was not one calculated to animate the Irishllovernment
in their exertions. Let it also be remembered that the ques-
tion which the present Government of Ireland were called upon
so suddenly to decide was one involving the permanent inte-
rests of that country, that it was one with which all preceding
Governments had found it impracticable to deal, that it was
one which, according to the Right Honourable Baronet's
own acknowledgment, was replete with intricacy and diffi-
culty. That intricacy and, that difficulty had indeed been I
abundantly evinced in the fruitless attention which farmer Go-
vernments had bestowed.= the subject, and in the very slow
steps Which had been taken by those Governments towards the
removal' of the evils,-the existence of which was on all sides ac-
knowledged.- In that view of the subject, he would therefore
again appeal to the House whether or not the present Govern-
ment, which had not been in power for more than three months,
or rather for more than seven weeks (for that hail been the ac-
tual duration of their authority could be expected at once to
remedy evils, the cure of which former Governments, with equal
anxiety and with considerable diligence, had, during the long
period of their existence, found it difficult, and, indeed, irnpos-
sible to accomplish. But if this were not considered a suffici-
ent answer to the Right, lion. Baronet's proposition, he had
another and a more serious ground on which to rest his opposi-
tion to that proposition. Whatever opinion Hon. Gentlemen
might entertain as to any particular government ; whether they
might think that government deserving of censure or of appro-
bation, he thought that they must all agree with him, that to
take a moment of great public difficulty, to take a,' moment at
which all that could be depended upon for the preservation of the
laws was the authority of the government to whom the execu-
tion
of those laws was confided, to take such a moment for the
purpose of telling the people who were governed that their go-
vernors were not entitled to the confidence of Parliament, would
be a proceeding fraught with consequences, the extent of the
danger of which could be fully appreciated only by those who
were familiar with the actual condition and feelings of the peo-
ple of Ireland at the present moment. It was idle to-suppose
for a moment that the people of Ireland would remain ignorant,
of the proceedings of Parliament on this question. The Irish
were gifted witha quickness of apprehension which probably
excelled that of any other people in the world ; they were per-
fectly capable of estimating the object of the Right Hon. Bart.'s
motion • and if by assenting to it the House of Commons
should show that they had withdrawn their confidence from the
existing Government, lie wished to ask whether it was probable
that such a step would render the people of Ireland better
inclined to pay that deference to the Government which was
indispensible to the due exercise of their authority for the ge-
neral good ? the Right Hon. Baronet appeared to attribute the
evils which had been so long desolating Ireland to three main
causes—the first, the long misgovernment of that country ;
the second, the large revenue raised in it ; the third, the sys-
tem of tithes. The Right Honourable Baronet had superadded
another cause—the Roman• Catholic disabilities. To speak first
of that point, 'which was the last touched upon by the Right
Hon. Bart.—the Roman Catholic Question—he was ready most
distinctly to declare his opinion that it was a question fully
entitled to a separate discussion in Parliament. It was too im-
portant a subject to be treated incidentally, and with a host of
other topics. It was a question affecting not Ireland merely, but
the whole empire.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was a question to be
decided, on a full and serious consideration of the condition and
claims of the Protestant on the one hand, and of the Catholic on
the other. Whenever that question should be brought forward,
would be the fit time for himself and for others to declare their
sentiments upon it, whether in favour of a continuance of the
present system, or in favour of any other system to be adopted
in substitution of the present. But with the recent and existing
disturbances in Ireland, he must say that he thought the Catho-
lic question, important as it was, had nothing whatever to
The result of all the inquiries which he had made on the sub-
ject (and he could assure the House that he had missed no op-
portunity of inquiry), was to sdtisfy him that the disturbances
of. Ireland in no way originated or depended on the settlement
of the Catholic question. It was certainly true that, in the
progress of those disturbances, there might have been indica-
tions of religious feeling on the part of those who were engaged
in them. Th e fact being, that the lower classes were generally
Catholic, and the higher classes generally Protestant; it was
very natural that those who saw the former leagued and con-
spiring against the latter, and who at the same time saw that
the one class was Catholic and the other Protestant, should
erroneously assign religious differences as the cause of the dis-
turbance, instead of those real motives which were lurking in
the minds of the agitators. With respect to the long misgovern-
ment of Ireland, he was by no means disposed to deny what
every one -who knew any thing of the history and condition of
Efeland wasyerfectly aware of, that the early misgovernment of
that country, or rather the course which was adopted on its con-
quest, was one of the main causes of all the evils that had since
occurred. The conquest of Ireland had been conducted on prin-
ciples more adverse to the happiness of the people, than any event
of pa similar nature that had _Ter occurred in the history of the
world. No attempt had' been made to conciliate the conquered,
or to amalgamate them with the conquerors. On the 'contrary,
the policy which had been pursued was to keep the two parties
distinct and separate ; thereby laying the foundation of that
bitter animosity which had been handed down from father to
son, and which at that very moment pervaded the minds of the
great body of the Irish peasantry. In support of that opinion,
he need only refer the House to those domestic and familiar
songs and tales in which the Irish peasant continued to harp
with fondness on the period when the English name was un-
known in Ireland, and when Ireland Was the glory of the
world, superior to all the countries by which she was surround-
ed. To that very moment, tile penduct which had been pur-
sued on the conquest of Ireland was referred to in that country
as a just ground for hatred of the existing Government. The
next cause to which the Right Honourable I3art. attributed the
disturbances in Ireland was, the amount of revenue demanded
from that country. But in the course of his speech, the Right
Honourable Bart. hail afforded an answer to his own argument.
The Right Hon. Baronet first contended that Ireland had been
too highly taxed at the Union ; that to pay two sevenths of the
expenditure of the empire was beyond her ability ; and that this
severe taxation had driven the landed proprietors out of the coun-
try, and had thereby entailed on the great mass of the Irish po-
pulation the miseries which they were enduring. But in the pro-
gress of his argument, the Right Hon. Bart. admitted, that al-
though, by the Act of Union, it was provided that Ireland
should contribute two seventeenths to the expenditure of the
empire (which was now allowed on all hands to be more than
she was able to do), yet that this country had since taken on
herself the debt of Ireland, by which proceeding Ireland had, in
fact, been actually called upon for no more than one-seventeenth
instead of two-seventeenths. In answer to the assertion of the
Right Hon. Baronet, that the severe taxation in Ireland had
driven the Irish Gentlemen to this country, he' would merely
call the recollection of the House to the amount of the taxa-
tion in this country during the wsr. Without entering into any
argument as to the amount of the taxation in Ireland, without
inquiring whether it was too severe or not, without considering
whether it might or might not have produced much 4erious in-
jury and oppression—he would merely ask, whether at a period
when the rate of taxation in this country was incalculably
greater than the rate of taxation in Ireland, it was probable that
any man would fly from the one country in which the taxes
were comparatively light, to take refuge in another country
where they were so positively burdensome ? He therefore felt it
impossible to understand in what way the amount of taxation
in Ireland had occasioned the absence of the landed proprietors
of that country. The last cause to which. the Right Honour-
able Baronet had ascribed the existing state of things in
Ireland was, the system of Tithes. On that question
he would say, as he had already said of another great
question, that it was so intricate, so extensive, had so
many bearings, and was attended by so many difficulties,

that it might well require a distinct and separate discussion
by Parliament. Ne presumed, from the short and succinct
ttiotle'Ari'whielr, the 'Right IHotetittiable Beronet treated that
part of the subject, that he entertained h .similar opinion upon
it. The Right Honourable Baronet said that, in considering
the rights of the church, they must not forget the rights of the
people. Undoubtedly Parliament ought impartially to weigh'
both thoSe interests. But it was a subject that required much
and deep corieideradon. It ought never to be forgotten, in
whatever light' the question of tithes (whether in this country or
in Ireland} was viewed, that they formed a portion of the pro-
perty of the country, and that,. whatever principle Parliament
applied to the question of tithes, they might be subsequently
called upon to apply to other -descriptions of property. As to
the intervention of a third person between the payer and the re-
ceiver of tithes forming a ground for invading the rights of the
Church, be begged leave to ask those Hon. Gentlemen who
were connected with Ireland, if a similar intervention did
not
,exist with reference to other descriptions of property ?
Few of the owners of land in Ireland held immediate posses-
sion. There was, with respect to land, as with respect to
tithes, the intervention of a third person, whose agency
had the effect of enhancing the charge to those who had
to pay, and diminishing the proceeds to those Who had
to receive. Parliament, therefore, would do well to recollect
that the same practice existed with reference to other property
as with reference to tithes, andto pains before they commenced
a course of change which, in its progress, might involve the
country in confusion 'greater than'any that had existed at any
former period. He had felt it his duty to make those general
observations upon a subject, the difficulties and embarrassments
of which were very sensibly felt by the Government of Ireland ;
but he must' also say that he did not consider the question of
tithes ti form any material cause of the existing disturbances in
Ireland. He certainly knew that in the notices and denuncia-
tions to whit+ he had already alluded, tithes were specified as a
source of grievance ; but so was the rent of land, so was the levy,
ing of taxes, so was the salary of the priests, so was every thing in
the shape of payment by which the executive authority of the
Government was to be maintained. The fact was, that the mate-
rials of disturbance in Ireland had been growing ever since the
termination of the war. In that country, as in this, every means
had been adopted to light the flame of insurrection among the
inferior classes of the people; and, in furtherance of that design,
the subject of tithes had been enumerated among the grievances
of' the people ; not so much because it was a real grievance, as
because it suited the purpose of the agitators so to characterize
it. He would not trespass longer on the patience of the HouSe.
It would be remembered that the period at which the existing
Government of Ireland arrived there was not the most auspi-
cious. The Country was involved in disturbances more serious
than any that had for a long time existed: In fact it was in
open insurrection and rebellion. Whatever dispOsition, there-
fore, the Government had to enter deeply into. the causes of the
existing evils, and their probable remedy, it was their para-
mount duty, in the first place, to turn, their attention to the
means of suppressing those turbulent manifestations which could
not be permitted to continue with the slightest regard to the
safety of the'country. It was true that in some points violence
had been put down. But it was not to be supposed that because
the disturbances did not rage in Limerick and in Cork so fiercely
as formerly, that those counties were in a state of perfect tran-
quillity.. He was sorry to say, that although there was a partial
calm, there were such strong indications of a disposition to tur-
bulence; that he was persuaded if the means of enforcing peace
which the Irish Government at present possessed were taken
from them, they would soon have to deplore the renewal of all
those Outrages by which Ireland had for so many years been
agitated.. The severe measures to which it had been necessary
to resort had had the effect of driving the disaffected to more
distant quarters, where scenes were taking place, the suppres-
sion of which demanded the most unrelaxing vigilance. The
IIOn. Gentleman here described the number of Baronies in Ire-
land proclaimed to be in a state of insurrection ' • and said, that
no longer ago than yesterday he had received an account of
two murders committed in Kilkenny of the most atrocious
description. He sincerely assured the House, that howeVer
much the attention of the Government of. Ireland ,had neces-
sarily been occupied by the subjects to which he had just al-
luded, and by taking such measures as would answer the call of
the resident entry for protection against the atrocious outrages
with which they were menaced, they had, nevertheless, not ne-
glected taking into consideration, not only the topics to which
the Right lion. Bart. had adverted, but ethers not less important
to the permanent interests of the country. The Noble marquis
at the head of the Irish Government had bestowed the most
anxious attention on this question. Before he (Mr. Goulburn)
left Ireland the Members of the Irish Government had had
many communications together on the subject. The diffi-
culty of those communications was now considerably increased
by the necessary attendance of his Right Hon. and Learned
'Friend, the Attorney-General, and himself, in Parliament.—
Under those circumstances it was not surprising if the Irish G-
overnment were not ready with any immediate measure to pro-
pose to Parliament; and they ought not therefore to be accused
of a deficiency of duty. He could confidently assure the House
that the whole subject of the condition of Ireland was under-
going the most serious consideration. 'When the moment should
arrive that the Government of Ireland, having had sufficient
time to investigate the question, had made up their minds on
all the points which bore upon it, he should be prepared to
state to the House either the legislative measure which it
would be proposed to adopt, or the reasons which would in-
duce the Government of Ireland to abstain from making any
such proposition. Whatever might be the course which the
Irish Government would consider it their duty to 'pursue, he,
trusted the House would feel that the censure of the. Right Hon.
Bart. was as yet undeserved; and'that it would-be no less im-
politic than unjust to send forth the Government of Ireland to
administer the affairs of that country, under the imputation
that the House of Commons did not deem them to be intitled
to their confidence. Under all these circumstances, lie felt it
his duty to move the previous question.
Mr. N. CALVERT supported the original motion.—He ex-
patiated on the natural advantages which Ireland enjoyed, but
which the gross mismanagement of its Government had render-
ed unproductive.
Mr. T. S. RICE, in rising to offer a few observations to the
House, begged most sincerely to state, that he should nbt have
done so, if he had not considered it a paramount duty for every
Gentleman connected with Ireland to speak out, to speak the
truth, and the whole truth, upon the subject of her calamities
and her misfortunes. He was at a loss to conceive upon what!
principle it could be deduced, that the proposed Address con-
veyed any stigma upon the Irish Government. So far from
any discussion of the present topics being deprecated, it was
absolutely provided for by the Bills then introduced in relation
to the affairs of Ireland. The Noble Marquis opposite was
not so sanguine as to expect that the measures would be limited
in their duration to six months ; yet he only proposed their
enactment for that period, and for that period they were enacted.
He would therefore put it to the House, what was the natural
motive which induced the Noble Marquis to propose such a
limitation, but the intention that the state of Ireland should
come fully under the discussion of Parliament before the
expiration 'of the time. It would be remembered that
the measures were passed under circumstances of pecu-
liar emergency, that the Standing Orders of the House
were dispensed with, and that the usual rule of passing
laws was abridged to almost the shortest possible extent.—
The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted the case of mis-
government in Ireland as the cause of the present state of so-
ciety in that country ; but he charged it upon Governments of
ancient times. Now it was difficult to know where the Right
Hon. Gentleman drew his line betwixt ancient and modern
times; but he (Mr. Rice) would say that much of the evil was
to be attributed to the conduct, of' recent Governments. Al-
though it 'night-be true that barbarity and ferocity might have
been sown and implanted in' the country by those feudal ma-
rauders who first carried rapine and plunder into its bosom,
and sought the extermination of its people, yet was there any
man living who could say that the spirit and feeling which now
prevailed, and constituted the misery of Ireland, was not to be
ascribed to the conduct of its Government within the last hun-
dred, aye, or within the last fifty years ? If a comparison were
drawn between the condition of the people of the \two countries,
it must be one at which every Englishman looked with regret,
whilst they regarded with horror the contrast which it pre-
sented. If he asked what had produced this dreadful difference
between the state of the two nations, the answer 'was that in
England men had lived under equal laws, and an impartial ad-
ministration of justice. Ireland, on the contrary, had unequal
laws to afflict and corrupt her people ; and amongst the
most pernicious of these were the laws against the Catholics.
He did not mean to raise here the guestion which involved dif-
ferences of opinion, but in as far as all parties were agreed upon
the subject, he had a right to make use of the Catholic laws in
support of his argument. *Ai to the doctrines of constitutional
liberty', they were as little known to the Irish people as the ad-
ministration of equal laws. Up to the year 1782', they had no-
thing even in idea of constitutional liberty. At that period,
indeed, it was acquired for them. The name of Grattan was only
second to that of:Washington ! When he had established the
Constitution in 1782, the C;Overnment perverted the principles
and the integrity of the two Houses of Legislature. The ho-
nours of the one were employed as the means of corrupting the
other. The 10th Report of the Commissioners for inquiring
into the State of the Fees of the Courts of Justice in Ireland,
which was now lying on their table, would furnish them with
evidence of the means employed to corrupt the Irish Parlia.
ment. He next came to the Union,
,and all he should now say
of that was,. that it was not exactly calculated to improve the
national defects which were so much complained of. This
woud bring him to the consideration of what Ireland had first
experienced at the hands of the Imperial Parliament in 1801.—
It was the proclamation of martial law. This was an ominous
birth, and it had been unhappily
.followed by similar ones again
and again, ever . since that period. • When the time of pro-

mise for Ireland was to come he knew not. They were -
always met with the assurances of what would be done..
They were always told that there was a young Secre-
tary who was about to do something, which something
had never
,yet been accomplished. They still heard the
song of " oung I am and sore afraid," and still the day of
promise appeared to be distant. To shew the progress of the
Legislature upon the evils under which Ireland was groaning,
he would trace what had been done upon one subject alone
since the period of the Union, namely upon the tithe-system.—
An Hon. .Friend and relation of his first called for an inquiry
into the subject in 1808, and was answered by a pledge from
the ,Minister of the day, which, from the excellence of that
Minister's private character, would be considered more bind-
ing, perhaps, than that of any other since his death, that the
subject should be attended to by Government. Ile alluded to
Mr. Percival, who at that time rose in his place and avowed,
that the system was under the immediate consideration of
Government, and that something should be done upon it.
In 1809 it was again brought forward, by the Honourable
Member for King's County, in the shape of a Bill ; and it was
then declared, that, owing to its Very great difficulty, the sub-
ject had been abandoned. The Secretary for Ireland at that
period, Lord Melville, then Mr. Dundas, requested that the
House would wait awile, and see what he intended to propose.
In 1810 the same Hon. Member again brought forward the
'subject, and it was again stated that the subject was under
consideration, and during the recess every attention would be
devoted to it. The recess passed, and the year 1811 came, when
the same Secretary requested that the Hon. Member would just
withdraw his Bill and wait one more Session. The one more
Session came in its then—the Secretary opposed the Bill—it was
rejected—and never heard of since. If the subject was always
to be met in this way,; and its merits shunned and avoided,
it was impossible that a remedy could ever be discovered.—
If they came forward with it in a time of prosperity they
were told that the people were happy and prosperous and
contented, and wanted nothing more. If they applied under
circumstances of distress, and consequent disturbance, they
were told that was not a proper time for making concessions.—
He would caution Iloa. Members against persevering in a
course which might bring the people to despair. They were
bound to use every power which God and man had given them,
to restore the unhappy and afflicted people of Ireland to their
rightful state of comfort and of order. In looking at the
causes which had produced the dreadful evils under which
Ireland suffered, he could not think it practicable to put
an- end to them by any, acts of the present age. But they
could at least stop their course, and prevent their spread-
ing to_ a greater extent. If the system of Government had
been wrong, they could at least retrace their steps. With re-
gard to the tythe system, it had been deprecated by- every
Irish Gentleman in that House, no matter on what side he sat,
or what were his political opinions, .011 agreed in the necessity
of immediate measures upon this subject.• But if all the mag-
nificent hopes they had been led to form were to be met by a
Bill for leasing the tythes, he should protest against receiving
it is 'payment of what was due to that miserable country. He
wished to say a fe a words upon the state of education in Ire-
land. He was happy to say that in that respect there was some
improvement. Some persons,indeed, expected that every
thing was to be accomplished y it in the next generation, and
i that t would be the means of stopping the general progress of
demoralization. The House would be gratified to know that
there were at present 8000 schoolmasters employed in Ireland.
He, however; complained of the system under which education
was afforded to the poor. Improper books were used for the
text books, and it was necessary that all distinctions and at-
tempts, at proselytism should be abandoned; before the benefit
which education waS calculated to bestow could reasonably be
expected to result from it. He should feel inexpressibly it' the
present motion were rejected.
Mr. C. GRANT addressed the House from the benches be-
neath the gallery, so as to be frequently inaudible. He op-
posed tire motion before the House, but, unquestionably, not
because he wished to reject discussion upon the great eines-
tions which it embraced. Being convinced that the objects
alluded to in the proposed Address had neither escaped the
consideration of the Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish
Government, nor that of his Right Hon. Friends, the Secretary,
and Attorney-General, he would not be so unjust to them as to
give a vote which implied that they had not received their at-
tention. At the same dine he did hope that ample discussion
would be given to those subjects, and although he could
not expect to add much to the information' of which the
House were in possession, yet he felt it a paramount duty
'to communicate what had come to his knowledge relAtive
to the affairs of Ireland. The state in which that country
was, was now become a sort of habit of the people of the
most disturbed districts. It was now about sixty years since
the disturbances first arose, anti from that period down to the
present, they had been continually repeated at short intervals
of time. The first of these took place in 1760, when the White-
boys were first heard of, and that was a' combination of the
peasantry against the landlord and against the tithes. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then enumerated the different insurrec-
tions which have occurred since that period, under the denomi-
nation of " Steel Boys," " Heart of- Oak Boys," &c. and the
measures adopted for their suppression. He believed that the
immediate cause was always to be traced, as in the present
instance, to some acts of local oppression exercised towards the
peasantry by agents; He was of opinion that the character of
the people of Limerick was more ferocious, and that they
were more addicted to ,this sort of tumult and disturbance
than those of any other part. They also appeared to remem-
ber feuds and antipathies with the most implacable tena-
city. This feeling was not wholly confined to the lower
orders, although' he did not mean to say any thing harsh
of the respectable inhabitants of that country ; for he knew
there were many resident Gentlethen there of • the highest
character for humanity and respectability. But. there ,were
some who at first encouraged the' peasant, net undoubtedly
with any view to the dreadful results which followed, against
the persons that oppressed, and injured them, in order to pre-
vent, if possible, the repetition of their mal-practices. The
~time was now come when they must look into these disgrace-
, ful circumstances which had been suffered to remain so long.—
They must look at the causes from which they originated, and
by which the infection always spread with so much rapidity.—
He believed,the cause of the latter to consist in the abject
state of the Irish peasantry,. At the present moment, he had
been informed,., of course his means of information were not
equal to those of his Right Honourable Friend, but he had
heard, that in the County of Clare the people were abso-
lutely in a state of starvation. He trusted that something
would be done by Parliament for their relief, for their situa-
tion was represented as being most deplorable. It had been
said by my Lord Clive, in 1807, that there was not so
miserable a peasantry in 'the world as that of Munster. He
believed that their condition could only be matched by that of
some of the peasantry of Poland. Yet their produce was ge-
nerally superabundant. But they had no sort of care to make
provision for the future, and the consequence was, that the
slightest visitation of Providence which affects their crops
produced the most dreadful calamities that could be imagined.
He could not help yeferring to the difference which existed
between landlord and tenant in England, and Ireland ; and he
earnestly pressed it upon the attention of Irish Gentlemen,
whether it would or not be advantageous to introduce an en-
tire change in those relations, and to endeavour to inspire
among their peasantry that taste for the comforts of life
which raised the English peasant to his comparatively happy
state. In considering the causes of the distress which pre-
vailed in the south of Ireland, the depression in the agricultu-
ral produce must not be lost sight of. The cessation of the war
occasioned the immediate and sudden loss of the provision
trade, which produced a degree of distress that was greatly
heightened by the subsequent failure of the Banks in that quer.
ter. In all disturbances in Ireland there was a cry against rents,
taxes, and tythes. With respects to rents, in many instances they
had been considerably remitted in Ireland as well as in Eng,
land ; -and if the remissions had not been carried to an equal
extent, it was not for the want of disposition on the part of
landlords, but as he believed from utter disability.—When
taxes were the cause of disturbance, the House was not to
understand by that the public taxes of the Government, but
local taxes, fixed by the Grand Juries. These had not
been sufficiently lowered since the war. He would men-
tion one instance to shew that this was the state of the case.
Upon 'a farm in the county of Cork, this tax amounted,' thirty
years ago, to five or six shillings. During the war it was raised
to 20eand since the peace it had only been lowered al.—
The topic to which he should next address himself was that
of the tithes, though he did not propose going into it at any
length, as notice had been given of a specific motion on the
subject. The evils of the tithe-system had, he believed, been
considerably exaggerated ; but he did -not think the dispute
was between the church and the people ; for he considered
that the interests of both were closely identified. The Clergy
of Ireland ware in general a most respectable body ; but that
it was impossible to disguise the fact that it was the mode of
levying tythes which rendered the system vexatious. Itavas
here highly necessary to look at tho temperament of the people
who were the objects of this system—a people naturally
warm and impatient under suspense. The tithe system it
was that kept the farmer in constant dispute with the proc-
tor; for there were few instances in which tithes were not en-
forced by legal proceedings, and thus irritation became per-
petual. Among a large portion of the people, too, there was
a strong distrust of the Legislature,—a distrust quite uncon-
nected with rebellion, and occasioned solely by a belief that
they were not protected by the laws. He was convinced that
this distrust had not originated in any spirit of hostility ;_and
that if the whole course of our legislation for centuries were
examined, the distrust would readily be accounted for. The
system of our legislation was a system deeply injurious to the
interests of the people, arid excluding them from the privileges
of the Constitution. As early as the reign of James the First,

an admirable work had appeared on this subject, from the pen
of Sir John Davis, who, after describing the advantages enjoyed
by Ireland from natural causes, particularly with respect to its
soil, went on to state that the legislative system of exclusion mar-
red the gifts of Providence ; and the writer added, that he looked
forward with confidence to the repeal of• those unjust and impo-
litic enactments. To remove those scenes of faction and con-
spiracy which disgraced thescounary it was necessary to soothe
the feelings and obtain the confidence of the Irish people. The
country contained about twelve millions of acres, and of these
eleven and a half had been the subject of confiscation princi-
pally in consequence of the Anti-Catholic. Code of Exclusion.
That, in some degree, had been relaxed, but still the statute
book contained the White Boy and Insurrection Acts, and
Acts legalizing an array of military pouvir. He was aware
that he should here be met by the plea of emergency, yet
he could not forget that the emergency itself had been met
by measures decidedly unconstitutional in their character
In every well ordered society there was a. power of al-
teration, of adapting itself to circumstances, and of course
including the means of defence agains't suth attacki as those
which had been the subject of recent legislative provision. In
Pngland there was a resident gentry, while. Ireland suffered
from absentees. In England the people were protected by an
unpaid Magistracy; in Ireland they were suffering from a
neglected Police, which, in its limited operation, was too often
influenced by political feelings and interests. The people.
were suffering much from ignorance, and although there were
eight thousand schoolmasters in the country, the nature, of the
education was such as to demoralize the minds of the scholars.
—Books were placed in their hands calculated to inflame
their passions,' and encourage a spirit of adventure which
was already sufficiently strong by the influence of nature.
This ignorance was, he thought, to be ascribed to the penal
code, which, in its effects; professed a desire.for information.
He must here observe, that both the Protestant and Catholic
Clergy had much to answer for. The Protestant commanded
extensive means, but his instruction was: confined to Protes-
tants. The Catholic Clergy had been almost prohibited any
communication with their flocks e but the severity of the
measures affecting them had been, considerably relaxed. He
was aware that they had very laborious services to perform ;
but he thought much more might be dune. The _ordinary
police of the country was inefficient, and .was composed in
general of dependants upon others. Of the Magistracy, he
wished to speak in terms of the inmost perfect respect. 'Their
influence had been highly beneficial, but they were to blame
for a want of activity. To their general character and presence
of mind he could himself bear testimony ; but it was inactivity
which encouraged disorder. After all, however, the principal
cause of the disturbances might, in one sentence, be described
to be, that the Government was ea trinsic from the people. It
was a Government originally foreign,' and had been supported
by a foreign power. In such a Government there could be but
little inducement to sympathise with the people ; but even the
most arbitrary of domestic Governments contracted, from the
force of circumstances, some habits of connection with the
people. From the time of Henry 11. downwards, he believed
it would be difficult to' ;Joint out any period in Irish his-
tory wherein the Government was supported without foreign
aid ; a circumstance the more remarkable, as the people go-
verned were known to possess qualities of the highest order.
He deeply regretted the necessity which had occasioned the
late enactments; but he thought that necessity was no argil-
ment against the purpose of an inquiry into the cause. What-
ever might be fixed upon as the cause, it would be impossible
for Government to succeed in their endeavour to remove it,
unless the gentry of the country began the work of ameliora-
tion. To them he would appeal to do that which he really
believed they were not indisposed to do. He called upon
them to educe+, the people, 'and to give them a worthy ex-
ample in their presence. He really could not but call it dis-
honourable in them to abandon the post in which Providence
had placed them, in neglecting that which should be con-
sidered as a privilege rather than a duty. To expect to
receive the rental, while the industrious peasantry were left
to perish, was as unjust as it was unreasonable and unwise ;
and he trusted the appeal he had ventured to make would not
be lost upon those to whom it was addressed. The measures
which he thought might with propriety be taken into consi-
deration were three :—The first was the improvement of the
constitutional mode of defence. The magistracy
i and the po-
lice were at present highly inadequate tor their intended pur-
poses. It had been proposed to make the qualification for the
magistracy more extensive, and, on another occasion, a propo-
sal had been made, which would, in effect, have placed the
country under the government of Gens d'Armes. The present
constitutional system, however, he thought did not require al-
teration ; for it was a good system worked with bad materials.
Because this was the case, it was purposed, unwisely as he
conceived, to do away with the system and substitute ano-
ther of a nature altogether arbitrary. The present system,
he was satisfied, when • properly worked, produced the best
effects. In the county of Longford, his Noble Friend
who represented the county had taken upon himself the
duty of improving the condition of those who were within
his influence, and had happily succeeded. A few years ago that
county had been much disturbed ; so much so that it was ab-
solutely impossible for constables to execute the warrants of
the civil power. Tranquillity had since been restored ; the
laws were enforced without difficulty, and a single constable
might go into a crowded fair and execute a warrant without
experiencing the least interruption: It had been proposed also
to introduce a system of gratuitous parochial duty, analo-
gous to that of England. 'This was, of itself, very difficult•
to undertake - but it had been undertaken, and partly ac-
complished, by his Noble and Learned Friend, the present
Lord Chancellor of Ireland. The next measure for considera-
tion was national education, though lie thought it was a mis-
take to suppose that uniformity of opinion was alone con-
ducive to tranquillity. He thought that a supply of liberal
' funds to Government, to educate all persons without reference
to religious opinions, would be highly desirable. A small sum
had already been appropriated for that purpose; with the most
beneficial effects.. The third measure calling for consideration
was that of Tithes, and he trusted that when it should be
brought forward, it would meet with every attention from the
House, and be reduced to a practical shape. During the last
disturbances the condUct of the Irish Catholic Clergy had been
most exemplary. He had noticed it on that occasion, as he
thought it was his duty to do ; and for this he had been
much exposed to censure. But whatever might be said on the
subject of specific remedies, the best remedy was to be found
only in a steady course of good government which would pro-
mote a spirit of concord among the people. He did not bey
lieve that it was a hopeless task to conciliate all parties. He
made every allowance for human passions and human inte-
rests ;- but wherever the experiment had been fairly tried it
had succeeded. He would mention but one circumstance by
way of instance—ln the county of Limerick there was a pa-
rish which, although but nine miles from Limerick, and conse-
quently in the centre of disturbance, had escaped all molesta-
tion. This security had been caused by mutual confidence—a
confidence so great that the Catholic Clergyman had intro-
duced the Protestant Clergyman into his own pulpit, from
which the latter had addressed his Catholic parishioners.--
At the end of his address, the auditors by acclamation con-
sented to take the oath of allegiance ; and this was no sudden
ebullition of goodwill, but was the result ,of long-established
confideoce between the Catholic and the Protestant of the
place in question. After apologizing for having taken up the
time of the House, the Right Ron. Member then sat down
amid very general cheering.
Mr. ELLIS spoke at considerable length, but so much noise
prevailed in the House at the time that we could only occasion-
ally hear him. The remote causes of the present disturbances
had, he said, been attended to, but the immediate causes had
been entirely lost sight of. He had no hesitation to assert in
the face of the House, and of the Government, who might con-
tradict him if he spoke erroneously, that these disturbances
were caused, without one single individual exception, by the
Catholics of Ireland. The conspirators were bound together
by different oaths, all apparently of 'a religious nature ; but
all expressing in a greater or less degree animosity against
the established religion. The forms of these oaths had been
transmitted to Ministers, and he called upon them to deny, if
they could, that this was the tendency of these oaths. Here
was a Catholic Book, which was substituted by the Priesthood
for the Bible, which had been traced by Government into al-
most every cottage in Ireland, and which had a considerable as
well as pernicious influence upon the lower orders of the Catho-
lics. It was written by the Catholic Bishop Walmsley, and.
'contained, among other things, almost a defence of the mas-
sacre of St. Bartholomew. He was informed by several Pro-
testants, that they had emigrated entirely from an apprehension
that their lives and property were in danger; and he assured
the House that on inquiry it would be found that emigra-
tion had been confined almost universally to Protestants.—
With respect to the conduct of the Catholic priesthood and
their interference, it because necessary, in order to appreciate
that conduct, to ascertain the sincerity of the interference. He
admitted that submission had been recommended from their
altars, but how did the Catholic Clergy act upon other occasions,
whenever their authority was disputed ? In the present instance
it was evident that their seeming accommodation had failed.
On other occasions they had recourse to the censures of their
Church for the purpose of enforcing their mandates ; and
that this had been done by them against some of their flock
for only reading the Bible, was abundantly proved by
the records of the Courts of Jastice. In a particular
case a priest had been murdered in Ireland by a' high-
wayman, and the Clergy of the District suspended all
the Ecclesiastical Righte of the whole parish until the
murderer was discovered. On the 'other hand, a person
who had been a witness for the Crown, on a late occa-
sion, had been seized and murdered by the congregation of a
Catholic Chapel as he was passing by. This was a transaction
which had taken place in the broad day, in the presence of the