The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-16 00:00:00

give his consent to the appointment of the Committee.
He could not consent to shift to the Committee that re-
sponsibility which, according to the principles and prac-
tice of our Constitution, was most advantageously con-
fined solely to the advisers of the Crown. His Majesty's
advisers recommended him to recommend the subject of
tithes in Ireland to the attention of their Lordships. Now,
whenever similar advice was given to the Government un-
der similar circumstances of danger and difficulty, Go-
vernment were, be would not say in every case, but almost
in every single case, ready to submit some specific motion
—some positive plan for the adoption of their Lordships.
—(Oh, and bear, hear.) And even although the Noble
Lords opposite should be able to bring forward some case
in which this was not done, still upon principle, and in
accordance with reason, he should insist upon the advan-
tage of adherence to the ordinary course, and that which
was most consistent with the public interest. He consi-
dered it a great advantage of the Constitution, that those
conducting the Government of the country had the fullest
opportunity of obtaining information, and of maturing in
their councils every project that was subsequently- to be
subjected to the analysis of Parliament, to their Lordships'
House, and the House of Commons, representing the va-
rious interests of every class of his Majesty's subjects. He
also looked upon it as a great advantage that Government
was responsible for the measures it might recommend ;
•and, consequently, he entirely objected to any Mini-
ster's placing himself in the situation of merely
throwing out a few loose ideas—calling for a Committee,
and imposing upon that Committee the responsibility
of originating the plan proposed to Parliament. He would
accordingly object to the motion, as tending to deprive
the country of one of the greatest practical advantages of
the Constitution. The Noble Viscount threw out a few
general ideas upon the subject ; but expressed no decided
opinion, and then called for a Committee. Now, in his
opinion, the only advantageous way of having a Commit-
tee, would be upon a Bill introduced by Government, and
declaring the principles on which they proposed to pro-
ceed. With respect to the question itself, he would say,
that he had no objection to a compulsory composition of
tithes throughout the country, if the principles upon which
, it proceeded were just and reasonable. Neither had he,
upon principle, any objection to a gradual purchase of the
tithes, though he had not as yet heard any feasible plan
for the attainment of this object suggested. He contended,
too, that the Government proceeded upon mistaken views
and false principles ; and in proof of this he read the fol-
lowing extract from an harangue lately made by Mr.
O'Connell, in Dublin, and referring to his Majesty's

speech :—" It will be one of your first duties to inquire
whether it may not be possible to effect improvement in
the laws respecting this subject, which may afford the ne-
cessary protection to the Established Church, and, at the
same time, remove the present causes of complaint.' I
tell Lord Cloncurry it is impossible to remove the present
causes of complaint. Necessary protection to the Esta-
blished Church!' What! do they think it possible to
continue the present tithe system in Ireland, where not
oae in twenty of the population belong to the Established
Church, and where the Catholics in the south, and the
Presbyterians in the north, are equally opposed to that
system ? 1 tell Lord Cloncurry, and I tell the
King's Ministers, that that system cannot last in
Ireland.—(Cheers.) It is idle in them to think of it
—the time is fast coming when, as every man ought to pay
his own lawyer, his own physician, and his own apothe-
cary, so will every man be obliged to pay for his own
clergyman." He submitted that this was in opposition
to the principle of paying tithes, and not to the mode in
which they were collected. Therefore, the Noble Vis-
count was not dealing with the evil that existed. In
looking, too, over the paper, in which he that day saw
the speech from which he had read an extract, there was
another thing which he much lamented—namely, the re-
solution which had been agreed to. And he would now
beg to ask, what was the state of things in Ireland ?
The country was divided between two parties—Catholics
and Protestants—neither of whom had confidence in the
Government.—(Hear, hear.) If the army were removed
from Leland to-morrow, Government would not have a
single individual to support them, with the exception of
the few who were attached to it by office. It was this
dreadful state of things to which it was the Noble Vis-
count's duty to look. It was trifling with the country,
and not being faithful in the duty a Minister owed to his
Sovereign, to continue dabbling with matters of minor
importance, while the vital point—the principle of oppo-
sition to the payment of tithes—was left untouched.—
(Hear, hear.) For these reasons he opposed the motion,
and likewise because the labours of the Committee must
necessarily be addressed to such a variety of topics, that it
was utterly impossible it could, within any reasonable
time, arrive at any useful conclusion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was no
new thine for him to know that the Noble Baron had
no very high respect for Committees of that House,
but yet it did seem rather strange, that, while praising
the Constitution, the Noble Baron should at the same
time disparage one of its fundamental usages. He felt
happy, however, in believing that the Noble Baron's
sentiments were not shared by other Noble Lords, even at
his own side of the House. He denied that the motion
for a Committee, under the circumstances, was any inno-
vation, or that it was the duty of Government to propose
a plan upon any given subject, although it certainly was
their duty to consider it well before they ventured to moot
it in the presence of their Lordships. He considered that
the Noble Baron had been particularly infelicitous in his
observations respecting the mode pursued by the present
Government in first moving for a Committee, far be re-
membered that in 1825 there was a recommendation in
the speech for the consideration of the affairs of Ireland,
and a Committee was appointed, which had to direct its
attention to the whole state of Ireland—the Catholic ques-
tion—the tithes—the poor laws, and so forth. But the
Noble Baron, who then supported the Government, had
the advantage of snaking the distinction between the
two cases ; in the one it was quite true the Minister
had prepared no plan whatever—had no fixed ideas ;
whereas his Noble Friend had clearly stated the pecu-
liar points which it was his intention to lay before the
Committee.—(Laughter, and hear, hear.) He believed
that his Noble Friend had clearly explained as fully as
he properly could—and if he had done more be would
have exceeded his duty, and the Noble Baron would have
been the first to exclaim against him for attempting to
dictate to the Committee. The Noble Baron, great as
was his contempt for Committees, would have de-
cidedly lifted his voice to complain of this proceeding
as derogatory to the character of their Lordships. He
himself thought that the course recommended was that
mast consistent with the dignity of the House, and the
exigencies of the public service. When the rights of pro..
perty were to be considered, there should be a most cau-
tious investigation; besides the course of Government was
precisely the same as that recommended by the Noble
Baron himself with regard to East India affairs. He
thought the Noble Earl (of Wicklow) had very unneces-
sarily mixed up the question before them with personal
considerations ; and the question of tithes was one which
i❑ his mind ought not to be kept separate from all other
things. It was a question which had been forced upon
them by the state of Ireland, and had been recommended to
them, not by one party--by laymen, churchmen, or any
other cla-s—but by all parties.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGII, in explanation, stated that
his objection to the Committee was, that it was prelimi-
nary to a Bill in which Ministers should declare the prin-
ciples on which they proposed to act.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord (Lansdowne) also was mistaken when he
observed, that he had supported the Government in 1825.
At that period he had the weakness to put a certai❑ degree
of faith in the Noble Marquis and his associates—(Hear,
and laughter)—a weakness of which he had since bad the
good fortune to divest himself.—(Laughter and hear.) As
to the rest, the Committee on East India affairs had never
been proposed with a view of regulating the Government
of the country, but simply to procure information, of
which there was great need, and he hoped, that when the
India question was brought forward, the Ministry would
honestly take the responsibility on themselves.
The Earl of CARNARVON did not concur with the
Noble Baron in objecting to the appointment of the Com-
mittee. Differing, as he did, in many respect with the
present Government, he had yet no wish to thwart them ;
and if they should at length deem it necessary to assume
an imposing attitude, and put down agitation, they should
have his best assistance in this proceeding. He had
hoped, however, that Government would have been pre-
pared to propose some specific measure. He was one of
those who believed that it was impossible the present
system of collecting tithes could be continued, and the
tranquillity of the country preserved. He was, therefore,
much pleased when he understood from the Noble Mar-
quis that Government had some specific ideas upon the
subject, though he could not but regret they had not made
up their mind to some distinct proposition. He did not
believe the power of the Executive could be supported by
the Committee; but if the object of Ministers was to gain
time, and having the appearance of doing something, to
do nothing, no better plan could be devised than that em-
bodied in the motion of the Noble Viscount.
Earl GREY said, he had entertained a hope—a vain
hope as it had proved, and perhaps not a very rational
one, from his experience in that House—but he had en-
tertained a hope, that in such a situation of affairs,
and introduced as the question was by his Noble
Friend, with such exemplary moderation, and such au