The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-11 00:00:00

DECLARATIONS OF INSOLVENCY,

THOMAS MANSFIELD and JAMES HACKNEY, Col.
ridge, Staftbrdshire, earthenware-manufacturers.
NEWTON JONES, Bridge-road, Lambeth, snuff-agent.
BANKRUPTS.

THOMAS LEVER, King-street, Cheapside, Manchester-
warehouseman, to surrender Oct. 18, 28, at three, and Fov. 22,
at two, at the Court of Commissioners. Neild, King-street,
Cheapside.
THOMAS BUSH. London-street, Fenchurch-street, HUGH
FERGUSON', Euston-square, and OUNC A N WNAUG HT
LIDDELL, London-street, Fenchurch-street, merchants, Oct.
14, 21, and Nov. 22. at one, at the Court of Commissioners.
Oliverson, Denby, and Lane. Frederick's-place, Old Jewry.
JOHN BAWDEN, Chard, Slmersetshire, merchant, Oct. 21,,
21, and Nov. 22, at eleven, at the Old London Inn, Exeter.
Moseley, Bedford-street, Covent-garden ; Kingon, jun. Exeter.
WILLLIAM OWEN, St. Asaph, grocer, Oct. 24, 25, and
Nov. 22, at ten, at the Red Lion Inn. Jones, Temple, London;
Hurnphrevg, Rose-Hill, St. Asaph.
THOMAS CROWNSHAW, Sheffield, iron-master, Oct. 213,
28, and Nov. 22, at two, at the Commercial Inn. Sheffield.
Rodgers Smith, Sheffield; Rodgers, Devonshire-square, Bishops-
gate-street.
JOHN WELSH, Whitehaven, Cumberland, tallow-chandler,
Oct. 19, at ten, at the office of Mr. Hodgson, Whitehaven, Oct.
2, and Nov. 2-2, at ten, at the Golden Lion Inn, Whitehaven.
Falcon, Elm-court, Temple, London, or Hodgson, Whttehaven.
BERDOE WILKINSON, Hasketon, Suffolk, wine-mer.
chant, Oct. 14, 15, and Nov. 22 at eleven, at the Court of Corn-
. missioners. Gadsden, Furnival's-inn, Holborn.
SAMUEL and FRANCIS BURSTALL, Kingston-upon-
Hull, merchants, Oct. 13, 14, at ona, and Nov. 22, at eleven, at
the George Inn, Kingston-upon-Hull. Walmsley, Keightley,
and Parkin, Chancery-lane, London; Dryden, Hull.
THOMAS PARNALL and JOHN FRANK, Clark's-place,
Islington, linen-drapers, Oct. IS and 25, and Nov. 222, at ten, at
the Court of Commissioners. Hardwicke and Guest, Lawrence-
lane Cheapside.
THOMAS SNOW, New-street, Covent-garden, grocer, Oct.
18, 21, at eleven, and Nov. 2.2, at one, at the Court of Commis_
sioners. Fisher, Queen-street, Cheapside.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, OCTOBER 10.

- _
( Continued from our Second Edition of yesterday.)
The Limn CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
The Marquis of WESTMINSTER presented a petition
in favour of Parliamentary Reform.
The Marquis of CLEVELAND, the Duke of Noitror.K,
and the Duke of RICHMOND then presented petitions on
the same subject.
VESTRIES—IRISH PUBLIC WORKS, &c.
Lord MELBOURNE gave notice that he would move
the second reading of the Vestries' Regulation Bill to.

morrow.
His Loansure then moved the third reading of the
Irish Public Works' Bill.
Lord CARBERY objected to the clause giving addi-
tional powers to the Grand Juries to make assessments,
and suggested that as the legal interest of money in Ireland
was six per cent. some alteration ought to be made in the
law in that respect.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH also objected to the
Grand Jury clause; but still would not oppose the Bill,
which, on the whole, would he very advantageous to Ireland.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA highly approved of the
Bill, to which he would give his cordial support.
Lord MELBOURNE—The great object of the Bill
was to afford some relief to the poor of Ireland, where
there was a large population, without adequate empley•
ment, and this relief was given in a way, perhaps, not
well adapted to ordinary circumstances, but which would
do much good in the actual situation of Ireland. As to
the Grand Jury dame, the purposes of the Bill could not
be answered without it There were checks in the Bill,
however, on the Grand Julies. As to the interest of
money, that was hardly a matter for legislation. It
would be better, perhaps, to leave it to find its own
level in the market..—The Bill was read a third time and
passed.

Lord ROLLE presented a petition from some place
against the Reform Bill. It had been erroneously stated
in the public journals that he had been employed in getting
up petitions against the Bill, under the directions of a
certain Noble Duke. He denied the imputation. He had
not been employed in getting up petitions either for or
against the Bill. But he would do his duty in that
House conscientiously and independently.
The Eat I of FIFE presented a petition from the parish
of 'Marylebone, against bull-baiting, which at present was
not sufficiently prohibited by the law, as it at present stood.
His Lordship also presented a petition from the owners
and occupiers of land in the county of Banffi against the
use of molasses in the distilleries. However the petitioners
had no ground of alarm, as the molasses had been struck
nut of the Bill in the Committee. But he would suggest
that some of the English beer-shops should be sent to
Scotland, and also some of the English skittles, to amuse
the ft equenters of those beer shops, in order to wean the
people from whiskey-shops—not that he, by any means,
would do entirely away with the mountaiu dew, but he

Lord EBRINGTON rose amidst much confusion.
When silence was restored, he said it had frequently been
his lot to address that House under feelings of difficulty, but
that difficulty on the present occasion was increased ten-
fold. So momentous were the circumstances under
which they met to-night, so awful was the crisis, that he
must confess it was his sense of the important moment,
which superseded all private and personal feelings, that
weighed so heavily upon him. He bad, moreover, the
Justification that the debate on the motion he should sub-
mit, would not be determined by any argument that
he should Tait forth. He was aware there were
sitting round him many who represented important inte-
r, sts, and who had read the signs of the times, and
made themselves acquainted with the circumstances
of the country better than be had. He knew those gen-
tlemen by their statements would give the subject a ten-
fold greater impression than what he could give, and he
had also the satisfaction to know that the case he was about
to recommend to the House was simply a confirmation
of that which they had already done.—( Cheers from the
Ministerial side.) And he was satisfied that the House of
Commons, which had the virtue to acknowledge its own
deficiencies, and to pass a Bill for its own reformation,
would not at this momen recede from maintaining
its own consistency—(Loud cheers)—from vindicating its
own rights—from obeying the recommendation of the Sove-
reign. lie hail for one given a pledge to his constituents,
and if he were to refuse to bring the subject
forward, it might imply a suspicion that he bad forfeited
his pledge. Although he admitted that those Noble
Persons who brought the Bill forward did not go so far
as he was willing to go upon the subject of Reform,
yet it appeared to him to• unite the suffrages of a larger
portion of the people of England in its favour than
he had conceived it possible for any measure, or
that any set of men whatever, could be found to
adopt.—(Hear.) With reference to this Bill, lie should take
the liberty of calling the attention of the House to the cir-
cumstances under v. hich his Hon. Friends below him were
called upon to administer the affairs of the country. That was
at such a period that he (Lord Ebrington) almost despaired
of the probability of restoring public confidence. He
had no wish to repeat all the circumstances in which
the country was then placed, because he did not wish to
cast an unnecessary odium upon the predecessors of his
Ilonourable Friends; butt this he would say, that without
resorting to any measures of force, without bringing forward
any penal enactments, they contrived to restore the flame
and harmony of society, and to put a gradual end to those
risings which prevailed to so great a degree in the southern
counties—(Hear hear)--and, moreover, they framed a
Bill which appeared to him to give a greater degree of
contentment to persons of that influential and wealthy
class—the middle class—many of whom he was sorry to say
were by no means exempt from the bad feeling which pre-
vailed at that period.—(Hear, hear.) But be would ask,
had the laborious duties his Honourable Friends had had
to perform—bad the long and anxious discussions in which
they had been engaged, prevented their doing any
thing else for the public its the course somewhat
short of twelve months that they had been at
the head of affairs? Had the poor man experienced
no relief front the repeal of the coal and candle taxes?—
had the poor man received no relief front the repeal of the
Game Laws? Those laws, which in spite of the attempts
of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, had continued see-
to disgrace the statute-book.—(Hear.)
sion after session
And, though last not least, h the suitor in Chancery
gained nothing—(Loud cheers)—had he gained nothing
by the gigantic efforts of that great man, whose almost
superhuman effort in another place he (Lord E.) would
not more particularly allude to ? He asked had
the suitor in Chancery gained nothing by the efforts of
that great individual in cleansing the Augean stable of
that load which had oppressed the suitors of that Court ?
Those were acts for which his Noble and Hon.
Friends were entitled to the confidence of the country.
He was sorry to say that he thought there had been errors
in the administration of the affmirs of the present Govern-
ment, arising, no doubt, from the purest sources,
and which had been detrimental to their interests.
He thought in this country, and still more in Ireland,
there had been somewhat too much of a halting between
two opinions. He thought there had been too great a dis-
position shown to conciliate those who never could be con-
ciliated—(Hear, hear)—to the acts of what he might
call a liberal Government; arid in some instances they
overlooked rather too much the claims of those old and tried
friends who at all times had given to their pi inciples a
cordial support. He thought that his Noble Friend at
the head of the Government, in some things that he had
done, and in some that he had left undone, consulted
rather snore the unsuspecting kindness of his own gene-
rous nature, than the exigencies of affairs, and the necessary
support of Isis own Government—(Cheers from the Op-
position side of the House)—and, if he were not
mistaken, his Noble Friend had within the last two
or three days received a pretty severe lesson upon that
score.--(Hear, hear.) He trusted that his Noble Friend
would fall into such enrols no more. He trusted that if, by the
vote of to-night, for upon that the fate of Government and the
empire must depend—that if by the vote of this night,
which
injure
and by the confidence of this House, his Noble Friend
should be preserved—as in God he trusted he would
and continued cheering)—at the head of
affairs in this country, he would henceforth abandon that
ten
i nt
the measures
in s instances coefs hadhis
Admini-
stration. been
de-
cidedlyt
This advice he hoped his Noble Friend
would not despise. It was the opinion of many others
—the opinion of many of the best friends of the
porizoianigcu calculated policyto
Government as well as of himself ; and he felt the less
scruple and hesitation in making this statement, because
there was hardly any'service In would pot willingly per-
form for the Government, es:cept that ef taking any official
situation under them. In speaking of his Noble Friend,
the Lord Chancellor, he had omitted to state one or two
timings which redounded to his honour and virtue. He
had reduced his own emoluments to a considerable extent.
During one year, when a former Noble Lord held the office
of Chancellor, he (Lord E.) had been informed the
amount of the bankrupt fee:" came to 20,0001. This ;a-
formation he had from good authority, At all events
the average yearly amount was seven thousand pounds
and a fraction, but which at present had been very
much curtailed'; and in these critical times, when no
man could feel the tenure of office very secure, the Lord
Chancellor had refused to allow of an addition maroposed
to be made to the retiring pension of the Lord Ch4ancello'r.
Lie (Lot d E.) had put forward these• claims of the
Members of the Government, for time approbation of the
!Tense of Commens. He had put them fonward miWe
tban the great 44. which v ure
""i" WAs the wain feature of

fate of a Bill for a Reform in the representation of
the people in the Commons House of Parliament, in
favour of which the opinion of the country stands
unequivocally pronounced, and which has been matured
by discussions the most anxious and laborious, it

feels itself imperatively called upon to re-assert its perfect
adherence to the principle and leadißo• provisions of that
great measure, and to express its unabated confidence in
the integrity, perseverance, and ability of those Ministers
who, in introducing and conducting it, have so well
consulted the beet interests of the country."—(Cheers.)
Mr. C. DUNDAS seconded the motion. He hoped that

he House would come forward on this occasion and express

its opinion in such a manner as would ensure tranquillity.
Government would quiet the minds of the people by this
explicit declaration of their intentions in reference to the
measure which so much engrossed the interests of the country.
Mr. GOULI3URN—In rising, Sir, to offer some
observations on what has fallen from the Noble Lord
opposite, and on the motion with which he has concluded,
I deem it my duty, at a moment of natural and 1
great excitement, to so far adopt the example of the
Noble Lord, as to avoid, in expressing my opi-
nion, every thing whichritaytend to promote irritation or
warmth of feeling in the House. For, however I may differ
on other points with that Noble Lord, I concur with him in
recommending all abstinence from expressions of irritation
with respect to the proceedings in the House, and I sincerely

congratulate the House, that we can discuss, even in
the most excited state of public affairs, without denying
to the other House sf Parliament the full exercise of those
lights which we are always prepared to vindicate
for ourselves.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord indeed
has told us that in propounding at this moment to the
House the proposition with which he `has con-
cluded, he rises under a deep sense of the duty
which he owes to hims-lf and his constituents ;
I can assure the Noble Lord and the House that I rise also

under as deep a sense that I am undertaking a consciem
tious discharge of my duty, both to myself and constituents,
in offering toy opposition to the Noble Lord's motion. I am
sure that after the discussions which have lately taken
place in this House, the Noble Lord will not ex-
pect that I, or those who are on this aide the House,
should concur in such a motion.---(Hear, hvar, hear)—a
motion which tends to stultify all the proceedings which
have taken place on the Bill for altering and amending
the representation, and which goes further to contradict
the course of our conduct on many other important
subjects which have been submitted to the House. And,
if I forbear to enter into the arguments so repeatedly
urged on this side the House, in justification of the views
which we have taken in reference to the particular mea-
sure of Reform submitted to Parliament, or if I for-
bear also to advert to those various measures which have
suggested the occasion of doubting the wisdom, and contra-
vening the operations, commercial, political, and financial of
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the House, I trust,
will give me credit for abstaining, being desirous to
adopt the course best suited to prevent angry feelings,
at a time when excitement so much prevails abroad.—
(Hear.) Indeed, it is not necessary now that I should
enter into a detail of former discussions, with a view
to show the sincerity of the Noble Lord's motion,
The Noble Lord had said that the present resolution was ne-
cessary to maintain the rights of the House of Commons.
Was ever such a proposition heard of? With respect
to that measure, has the House not declared its sentiments
and opinions, and are we now for the first time to be told
that after the Bill has been carried through its several stages
and been sent up to the Upper House, if perchance it is
lost, it is, therefore, necessary to maintain the rights of
the House of Commons, that it should afterwards
come to a distinct and separate resolution,
But, Sir, when the Noble Lord calls upon us to eater
our opinions on those measures to. which I have
referred,by a vote of unabated confidence in the Right Hon.
Gentlemen who administer the affairs of Government,
I think he should bring forward some plausible grounds I
on which that vote was to be justified. The Hon. Gen4,l;.-
man then proceeded to say, that in most of thl alz.asures
brought forward by Ministers they he,d been defeated,
or such alterations had been t.n..?„..1e in them as entirely to
alter their original character. On the Timber Duties Rill
Ministers had been entirely defeated, and in severr.lother
measures which he could not now enter into the details of,
such alterations had been made au he had referred to.
Yet such were the men and the measures which the Noble
Lord by his motion called upon that House to sanction
and support. The benefits that had been cluired
by the people from those measures were :r.s,c4 commen-
surate with the evils that had res;!:ed from them; front
the taxes taken off the 1,-410.4c na more advantage had
been obtained tiiiAn r. reduction of about 250,0001. Many of
the tneaawee on which the House was now called to g;-,,,a

a vote of confidence in MiniBters,. had not yet ;r .e into

. .
could the Nest be a competent
~tchtser?efoWrei,th reset to the Game Laws he
opinion on the wisdom of
judgeoini
ip,age sr
faperfectly
i rsoucff,
willing
hbautmehaesuinresan,:he4iisoi:ceedreltxo.l.l;sp:
thattilat
tDingivvieewcrewdiotutlo.dMixnistzis:goilrib,z;:ingt.:
t
peirieatiroor:nolpeo
4.y
the object it had
any , ,
e_igin...,,,, he preferred to see how the laws they
~, ,
bfUeliOroe
' 11.4 enacted would operate. For that reason, on the g.O-4124
h}::_neg.....4walhianteisyterratidonis,:iteutp:
ctl:te:tr,ioNA::::
of the Game Laws, he could not gi,e. si. vote of
assumedconfidenceb i
ea
nLt 000ttrih,d,
another
ri
nslgtirni: Ministers tnde::.l;3,:br
discharge
to:„.:oet;e his t
oldtfou
ct
iroi:e
fib
dl e;Lcoewr,
.....di
sienhado:
one
Ltuoporodsnay;thenn:ot. person in the 1,10,v;./e eptevtained a higher
opinion than CliNhietbleocfaLmthoeavittodNipdobiroleni:
uLTrnoucred'saa,o
jtgurde,gait:tngaili
stationit Nb,-4htichvit'll'hh:en
upon the character of a public officer, filling the hlgi.

nient, and the Bench of Bishops bad liten alwaya
tiled by Anti-Reformers. It could not be considered
,herefore, that the decision of the House of Lords
was the decision of that race horn which the Peers of the
country were generated, namely, the great landed pro-
prietors of the kingdom. He should therefore support.
the resolution of the Noble Lord as the friend of Reform,,
but still more as the friend to peace, to propriety, and to
order. No observant or intelligent man could contemplate
the present state of the country without great alarm. He
did not pretend, nor did he expect anything like open.
aimed insurrection, but he did expect that the people
would engage in a silent war against the law. I appre-
hend that in a short time, in Great Britain, we should
have the same state of things which we had three years ago
in Ireland—agitators stronger than the Magiatrate—As-
oeiations stronger than the Legislature—a Government
powerful enough to be hated, but not powerful enough to
be obeyed—(Loud cheers)—a people leagued in unconsti-
tutional associations, because they were debarred from the
exercise of their legal rights. Pursuing the scene a little
further, you would have the constitutional authority de-
rided—the strength of the law derided.—the tax-gatherer
resisted—the public credit compromised—all professions
insecure, and the whole state of society fast hastening to
dissolution.--(Cheers.) So it is, I say, unless the Bill.
pass into a law ; but often high and Noble Persons tell u#.
let the law take its course—the law is strong enough—it
has an arm powerful to put down.sedition. Sir, we hare
heard this blustering before, We know its value--we
know how long it endurerl.—(Cheers.) This, Sir, is the.
language of little men who have fallen upon a great crisis.
—(Loud cheers.) It is idle, Sir, to talk of the power of
law after this fashion. Law has to hands wherewith it
may act. Nothing but the assent of public opinion can
give it validity and force, An Act of Parliament is no-
thing but a piece of parchment, with the King's arms at
one end, and the printer's name at the other, until the
public opinion has breathed the spit it of life into the dead
letter.—(Cheers.) See the example—the Government
(not this Government) endeavoured to put down the Ca-
tholic Association—indictments were preferred againse
the Honourable and Learned Member for Kerry-
-they were submitted to a Grand Jury—they
were thrown out. Parliament met—and an Act was,
proposed to put down the Association. It was pasted—
and what was the effect ? The Act had just as much
effect upon the Statute.book as one that was made many
years back, and yet slumbers there, and which declarer►
that no man shall eat flesh-meat on Friday and Saturday,
unless he pays a fine of twenty pounds, or be confined for
three months—unless he have a special exemption from,
the Archbishop of Canterbury.—(Cheers.) The causee.

are exactly the same. The Association was not sup..
pressed. On the contrary, the Aksociation threw forth
its branches and flourished, and became strong under the

Act.—(Bear, hear.) Fitst there way the- election in
1326, and two years after the Clare election, to demon-
.

trate the foil), of the notion that a nation mitht be ruled
by men, wax and parchment.—(Hear, heir ) The Go-

vernment of the day felt they had hut the aiternative—
concession or civil war. For myself, I do asy, Sir, that
I most firmly believe, if the people conceived that the
position to the Bill were decisive and final, they woad
adopt the same line of proceeding—the same form of re-
sistanee, which had been pursued in Ireland. Ido not
imagine they would he so imprudent—so insane as to
break into open rebellion. Ido not conceive they will be
guilty of any offenee which can be defined by law. }ha
still there would be a sufficient derangement of all put& af-
fairs to weaken the hands of Government for all domestic
arrangements, and for the preservation of our proper dig-
nity abroad, and to prevent the possibility of redress for
outrage, the due observance and aathority of the law, and
the accumulation of wealth.—(Bear, hear.) Ought we
not then to endeavour to avert a chance so disastrous ? and
who are they who now come so gallantly forward to express
their entire contempt of agitators and associations and
public meetings? The very men, Sir, who to the force
and influence of these contemned things surrendered the
boasted Protestant Constitution. Certainly, Sir, this note
of defiance, so long and loudly blown, comes with peouliar
grace from those who ae greatest glory is, that they bowed
to the dust before the people whose humble appeals they
had insulted until they drove them to madness.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Duke and his party then were intimidated by
Ireland, but they despised all rising, all display of force in
England. This may be well ; but the Government, in
its struggle with the Irish Roman Catholics, had Great,
.

Britain at its b&ck ; but whom could a Government have
tr, suppor"i it against the Reformers of England 7.....
(CUera.) Sir, i know only two wave in wnizti tv eat
caiumunities may be guxersed—by public opinion, and by
the sword. It wa.t by the latter means Ireland was go-
verned by Quiver Cromwell—by William lll.—by Pitt ;„
and ekl, perhaps, it might have been governed by the Duke
of 'Wellington. But to govern Great Britain in this wan-
ner—oh, Sir, I cannot imagine it ; and if any stattuonan
were to try it, he would find there was no better sword
than that wlalw has been made from a ploughshare,—
(Cheerst Sir, I can understand the Government at New
York,-Tit subsists by public opinion, I can understand the
Government at Milan—it is surted byAustrian bayonets;
but how the Government of England could be sustained,
when neither the tnuction of the one nor the force of the
other cocouldlac. applied, I really cannot understand.—
(C*ra,j•
In fact, there is a great anomaly in this country
laetween the authority of the Government and the power
of the people. Our iostitutione are too popular, and not
popular enough,-uot sufficiently popular in the making of
laws 1,),*,1,t, too popular in the power of evading them. The
composition of our Legislature is altogether aristocratic.
The machinery, on the contrary, whereby this is put into
effect, is as complete4rouocratic ; and therefore are they
working in matte ways. Look, for example, at our
penal lAvri.i,‘ which are notorious fox a cruelty s' hick
a1.4,.:,,01ats almost to atrocity, and see how they are miti-
, ,
gated by adjudicatiou..,,ou zany occasions at the ex elllie
of perjury.—(i444 hea..) Look, again, at out libel
laws, au abaurdity severe—laws to which, if they mu d ire
;.-4,rried, ic.,to raczt, every rational man would prefer is cen-
s;:r4ip ', and yet, notwithstanding these laus,
Press as free as air. Let us runaother that in 1619 new
law was passed—a law al great aeverity—agriaft I,
IthemOus and secii,Goas lihels,and decilarin h
ha. g'
41,1 tau: or baed. ' ill:0a n
we h re a
was twice atA;:;)easively con virted of!!r--st-r-
offence,
and if to had
libel '4,6 should be banished forbethe 14
md. How many IRS
I returned, transported for t
under this Act? Not our.
I were banished or trantwor

—(Cheers.) It was a weapon of weight and temper
which ought to have been irresistible in the hand, but as
soon as they obtained it, they hung it up to ust.—
(Cheers.) It is an atrocious law—yet it lies in fact as
innoxious on our statute-book as if it was inscribed in the
Code Napoleon. There was no difficulty in obtaining
this law—it was easy to procure it from a subservient
Parliament. They could pass, but they could not employ
this law. They could not—they durst not employ it
against the voice of a refractory people.—(Hear, hear.)
These, Sir, are specimens of the u-elessness of law, unless
supported by the people. But I think the Reform Bill
would remove this anomaly, and I consider the rejection
of it would increase all the evils of which I have com-
plained to a tremendous—to a portentous extent. Ido
not anticipate any thing approaching
.to an attempt at re-
volution, or the open display of sedition—but I fear that
the people will use the same kind of obstinate silent
resistance by means of which they have mitigated, I
might say abrogated, the libel law.—(Hear, hear.)
The veto of the people (though not so loudly uttered
as that of the Roman tribune) does yet meet the rulers at
every turn--(Hear, hear)--until at length impassive re-
sistance shall be so prolonged, and the hands of the Go-
vernment will be so weakened, that it shall not be possible
to preserve the peace at home, or sustain the national
honour abroad—until the public faith and credit shall have
become a by word and a reproach, and misery shall have
followed fast upon misery until sage, quiet men, who for-
merly never dreamt of revolution, would pray that the
dread, lingering agony might terminate in one short, sharp
crisis.—(Hear, hear.) I believe, however, that if the
House of Commons does its duty, there is no danger to be
apprehended. All will be secure and quiet, if we declare
our intense anxiety in favour of Reform is undiminished,
and that we will not support any Ministry which will
not support Reform.-(Cheers.) By this, Sir, I am well
assured we may avert the calamities which now gather
around us. I fear if we do not take this advantage, which
now presents itself to us, the people may fall into the hands
of had and faithless advisers—men whom nature only
intended for the public contempt, but which circumstances
have made the public fear—who are thrown forward
into stations they should never occupy, by the hesita-
tion of the better and more honourable portion of mankind
to put themselves forward. It is beautifully expressed in
the Hebrew fable, in the book of Judges :—" When the
trees went forth upon a time to anoint a King, and the
olive tree, because of its fatness, and the fig tree, for its
sweetness, and the vine tree, for its wine, which cheered
God and man, refused to reign over them, and, at length, in
their desertedness, they elected the bramble—the meanest
shrub—and from it came out the fire which devoured
the cedars of Lebanon."—(Loud cheering.) When, in for-
mer times, the villeins burned to the ground the houses
of the Nobility—when the most direful barbarities were
committed, 100,000 men assembled at Blackheath, and,
while they were yet indignant for their leader, whom
they had just lost by a most atrocious crime, anxious for
some othtr who might lead them forth to blood and
plunder, the King rode up to them and said, I am
your leader. The infuriated multitude laid down their
arms—they submitted to his guidance, and dispersed at
his command.—(Cheers, long continued.) Let us imi-
tate the King— let this House of Commons be the point
01 union. If we are afraid—if we know the people
will gratify their wishes by unlawful means—let us pledge
ourselves that our ancient privileges, so often successfully
employed in the confli,t against tyranny, will be 11961 iu
their behalf—(Loud cheering)—and I would tell the
people that the House of Commons constitutionally pos-
sesses a power which, if promptly exercised in their cause,
must prevail.—(Cheers.) On the same ground I would
say that the House should do its duty ; its interest is to
assure the country there should be no unncessary delay.
But even while I speak the irrevocable moments are fly-
ing, pregnant with great events—pregnant with the des-
tinies of a mighty empire.—(Cheers.) The issues of
great events are in our hands. The life and death of the
State—the honour and interest of this noble people,
which we all should love, are at our disposal. There is
one way to save England ; we know that way. Let us
this night vote for its safety, glory, and prosperity, and
thus propitiate cur own consciences—the memory of the
future time, and the Judge of all hearts.--(Loud cheers.)

Sir C. WETHERELL—Sir, I cannot rise to addres,
you without at once offering my humble tribute of applause
to the eloquent and masterly speech of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who has just concluded.—(Hear.)
I am sure that all in this House will agree with me in
saying that that lion. and Learned Gentleman cannot rise
to address you without delivering a speech that will end
in producing the cheers of all around him. It is impossible
for him not to extort front even those who disagree from
him that sincere tribute of applause which must be ex-
pected to be drawn forth by eloquence, by flights of fancy,
and by illustrations of reasoning such as have flowed from the
lion. and Learned Gentleman.—(ilear.) His speech has
produced such genera', as well as such loud and triumphant
expressions of applause, that if it were not for the political
arguments he has used, both sides of the House might
equally attribute to themselves the expression of them.—
(Hear, hear.) I feel, therefore, Sir, that lam labouring
under a disadvantage in rising 'to speak after the Hon. and
Leaned Gentleman. I must, however, do so, in order to
take the earliest opportunity of expressing my opinion on
this motion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated,
that he would follow the example of moderation set him by
the Noble Lord ; and if he had done so it would have been
well; for the Noble Lord allowed his principle and his
precept to be so intimately mixed with his practice, that
with the exception of one or two accidental words, it
did appear to tne that no gentleman on this side of
the House could say he had violated his own rules.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) And when the Noble Lord pro-
pos( d to consider this question in a tone of proper mode-
ration, he turned in a precatory style to those mound him,
and admonished his lion. Friends to follow his example.
I do not complain that my Hon. and Learned Friend de-
parted from this rule; but sure I am, and I think that
these who heard my Hon. and Learned Friend's speech
must concur with me in the assertion, that in that power-
ful eulogy which he poured forth upon the Ministers in
those bursts of eloquence that were responded to by the
cheers of all around him, he was forcible, Le was eloquent
—his speech, in short, had every merit but the merit of
moderation.—(Cheers. ) For of all speeches, one less con-
ducive to the production of moderation—less conducive to
the production of those conciliatory results which it is the
object of all moderate men to attain—one less calculated
to allay excitement—(Hear)—to carry the sedative conci-
liatory consequences that would make this side of the
Ilouse say to the other, "We do not agree with you in
principles or in results, but let us employ moderation in
our discussions,"—one less addressed to the purposes of
conciliation, and one more addressed to the purposes of ex-
citement, I never heard pronounced. It was a speech tending
not only to produce excitement and irritation, but unneces-
sarily tending to produce them, because in the resolution
of the Noble Lord there was nothing to warrant it. The
Noble Lord said lie would not go into these subjects ; but
my Hon. and Learned Friend said in fact, though not in
worth, my only mode is not to adhere to the principles
of the Reform Bill, but to travel out of that, and out of
the House of Commons, and to enter upon subjects that
will not only produce excitement in the House of Com-
mons, but will produce ten times worse excitement out of
doors. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said, " I
hope the Government will preserve the peace." I hope so
too ; hut I must say, that his speech was little addressed
to it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, ' I hope
the Government will be firm." His language is language
calculated to make them firm—firm at least in the pursuit
of the object he advocated. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman said, "I hope the Government will maintain
the laws." That wish, however, does not seem to be
heard in the latter part of his speech, Which, as far as was
consistent with the forms of Parliament, was, throughout,
an excitation to a breach of the laws. Then, says the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, we have an allegory of the
plants meeting to choose a King; and bespeaks of the olive
branch that accompanied that election, although, as he says,
the bramble was elected the King. If I were to reverse
the parallel, I should say, that the calls upon the people
who are to make this election, are only calls for misrule,
excitation, and peacebreaking..—(liear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman deprecates all this ; lie
deprecates, he revokes, he abjures anything tending to ex-
citement ; but in abjuring the thing he uses expressions
that forcibly recall it to the mind, and he eloquently de-
precates that which in his arguments he seems most to in-
culcate. He recommends peace-making. Do the Mini-
sters adopt this peace-making ally? Does the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government ? Does the Attorney_
General ? Does the Hon. Member, the representative of
the Secretary for the Home Department? Will they, I
say, adopt the peace-making recommendations of the Hon.
and Learned General on his conciliatory principles ? What
ore those principles ? He has told us that there was the
Catholic Association in Ireland, and that by violence the
Catholics ultimately triumphed, as he says. What, I ask,
is the moral of that ? 'What, but that he pronounces a hope
for peace, and at the same time gives an instance of enc._
cesaful violence? He tells the people, in fact, not to be-
lieve what he says, but to do what the Catholics have
done before, and to make a grand fac simile of their As_
sociation.—(Hear, hear.) My Hon. and Learned Friem.
again, pursuing the same course of moderation in terms so
as to he within the rules of this House says, that he does
not wish the people to resist the payment of taxeq; hut at

the same time, he who would not of course wish to lead
them to erroneous conclusions, has told us what will
happen if the Reform Bill is out passed, for he says that
the tax-gatherer would be resisted.—(Hear, hear.) I
should like to have heard from my Hon. and Learned Friend
a little correction of the recommendations to that gross mis-
demeanour—the resistance to the payment of taxes. He does
not advise them to do this, but he does not tell them not to do
it ; he does not condemn it—he leaves it with an unrepre-
hended, hut indefinite recommendation.—( Hear.) My Hon.
and Learned Friend (fur such I must call him) pursuing
again the same subject, refers to the Press. He says that
we cannot controul it. He does not, indeed say to the
Press—go on publishing your libels as you have done ;
but he does not condemn that Press—that seditious
Press, which recently recommended to the army
mutiny, which recently advised the people to resist
the tax-gatherer, and which denied to those who in this
and the other House of Parliament were opposed to its
doctrines the right to exercise their undoubted privi-
leges as independent Members of the Legislature.—(Hear,
hear.) He does not, indeed, say to this Press, go on
pursuing that line of conduct ; but he comes to a conclu-
sion which is very much like it; for he says, you cannot
controul its publications—it has a right to publish, and it
will go on publishing. Ido not say that by this he means
to excite the Press to continue these publications; I know
he makes a distinction between them ; but the people do
not, out of doors, take those nice Parliamentary distinc-
tions to which we are accustomed; he does not, inde,d,
adopt the principle that the Press should go on in these at-
tacks, but he pats the principle on the back, and gives it
a negative sort of encouragement. These are the principal
topics introduced by my Honourable and Learned Friend
in following the Noble Lord, for the purpose of proving
that he adopted the recommendation of the Noble Lord to
employ moderation in this discussion. My Honourable
and Learned Friend has alluded to the times of violence
when a certain King came to this House and extracted
from it five or six Members„ and he has referred to
that act as the most unconstitutional. I will put
the converse of that proposition, and I will say, that
it will be almost as unconstitutional for the King to
go to the other House of Parliament and put twenty or
thirty Members into it.—(Hear, hear.) Was it violent,
was it unconstitutional, to abstract some Members from
this House for having voted in a certain way.—(Hear.)
The question is no sooner put than we receive it with ac-
clamations, affirming that it was most unconstitutional.
I follow out the principle, and I boldly assert that if a
Prince of the House of Brunswick puts thirty Members
into the other House of Parliament to overrule the pro-
ceedings of that House, he will be guilty of an inter-
ference as unconstitutional as the violence for which a
Prince of the House of Stuart has been so strongly con-
demned.—(Cheers from the Opposition, and cries of
" No, no," from the Ministerial benches.) They say, No:
so that it appears I have not had the good fortune to con-
vince them of the truth of my opinion. But as there are
two sides, though I may not have conviucd them, I have
convinced myself that every thing I have put forward has
bet n fair and constitutional.—(Hear, bear.) The Hon.
and Learned Member then observed that his Hon. and
Learned Friend did not like the principle of combinations
among the people—he did not like the idea of the people
of Staffordshire marching to London ; but, bating these
insurrections, and loving peace, and wishing to keep 100
miles from the mention of Jeck Cade's name, yet he could
not abstain from referring to a former time, when the
operatives marched up to the metropolis against a law
which was not so important as the Reform Bill,
and he recommended a Prince of the House of Bruns-
wick to put himself at the head of the people.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman might go back
to these distant times if he pleased ; but he need
not go so far back, for the case was not yet de-
cided of a citizen King putting himself in the hands
of the operatives and joining one of the branches of the
Legislature against the other. The question was not yet
decided whether the citizen King of the revolution of the
year 1831 would be able to carry on the Government
without demolishing all the solid, rational, and consistent
part of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) It must he ad-
mitted, indeed, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had been eloquent, but it must also he admitted that his
discretion had been in the inverse ratio of his eloquence.
While these topics of the non-payment of taxes were under
discussion, the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General was
present : if the law was not what the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had compared it to—a rusty nail, be would
set himself in motion. Was it true that this non-pay-
ment of taxes had beeu the subject of discussion ? lie
believed it bad, and he was sorry that the doctrine had
not been denied by high authority. He should Lave liked
to have heard from the highest source of legal audio' ity—
from the highest Judge of the land—something upon this
subject. He meant to assert, that where there was a
' conspiracy to refuse the payment of taxes, there was a
crime of a higher kind than some of the peace-making
' gentlemen opposite imagined.—(Hear, hear.) If gen-
tlemen would but look into the works of Foster, Bale,
and other great legal and Constitutional writers, they
would find that these assemblies to rob the King
of money voted by the Parliament were not a bit by bit
question almost amounting to a breach of the peace, as
it had seemed to be considered in another place. Those
men were no lawyers, who, if non-payment of taxes was
combined with circumstances of conspiracy, would not
say that it was an offence far advanced in the scale to-
wards high treason.—(Hear, hear.) He could hardly
have imagined there would have been so touch said out of
doors upon this subject, or he would have come armed
with his authorities for his assertion. Did the House
know the sort of publications that had been issued on this
subject? He (Sir C. Wetherell) had had put into his
hands a pamphlet, with a portrait of his Noble and
Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor; it was a bad portrait
—but it was a portrait prefixed to his speech on this ques-
tion. It was right to publish his speech, and the cheaper
the rate at which such speeches were circulated, and the
more they were ventilated—(Much laughter)—through
the country the better.—(Hear, hear.) He, however,
complained not that it had been so ventilated, but that
a note had been appended to it in such a way, that unless
looked at most carefully, it might be taken for part of the
speech itself. The note was this—" God grant that all
this may be right; Inv, depend on it, that the watchword
will now be ' pay no taxes.' " He repeated, that unless
the sword of the Attorney-General was in fact the rusty
iron it had been compared to (though it had ever and anon
been proved a sword sharp enough), these were publica-
tions that did require the attention of his Hon. and Learned
Friend. He would not say that the Attorney-General
would neglect his duty in permitting these publications to
go unreprehended and unnoticed ; but he would go
the length of stating to the Attorney-General, that
if the language used in that House, bold and unlimited as
it might be by the latitudinarian nature of their forms
of debate, was thus permitted to be exceeded out of
doors, the law was, indeed, a dead letter. It was quite
true that the British public were not to be governed by
the sword—but they were by the laws; and one of those
laws was, that the recommendation of peace-breaking, of
tumult, of risings against the Government, of non-payment
of taxes, was an offence which, by a slight limit alone,
was out of the pale of treason. He had now stated briefly
the object for which he had risen, which was to declare
that he could not support the resolution moved lay the
Noble Lord. That resolution involved two main prin-
ciples; the first was, the House had full confidence in
the present Administration ; the next was, the declaration
of its continued adhesion to the Reform Bill. He could
support neither of these. As to the continued adhesion
to the Reform Bill, it must fo!low that, after the discus-
sions in which be had borne a part in opposition to that
Bill, he could not possibly support it, unless tie gave 'way
to those risings, those tumults, those excitements, which
had been occasioned by it. He could not, therefore, sus-
tain that branch of the resolution which asserted the pro-
priety of the principle of the Reform Bill. He did not
rest there—his opposition to it was strengthened and con-
firmed by the discussions that had taken place elsewhere;
for in those discussions had spoken a " preternatural
man"—(A laugh)—on one side; but he could quote the
opinions of that preternatural man—that man whose in-
tellect went out of this world to a certain extent—
upon the other side of the question. That preterna•
tural man, whose intellect was not confined inter jia-
mantia nicenia muncli, had written a composition, in
which he said that the principle of disfranchisement was
one which he did not agree to. The letter to which
he referred had been printed in all the papers, though
it was said to have been surreptitiously obtained
The Noble and Learned Lord, in that pamphlet, had
said, that if disfranchisement went beyond a certain
extent, there must be a compensation.—(Hear, hear.)
That was, then, one of his principles. In another part
he said, alluding to the impurities of the Parliament, that
they must be removed bit by bit; but now he said that
this alterative course must not he pursued. At that time,
iowever, he had said, " We hays the machinery already,
let us improve it, if we can, before we break up the ma-
chine, and try to form another on a principle the opera-
tions of which must necessarily be unknown."—(Hear.)
In another part they were recommended not to deal too
much in generals, but that course had not been followed
iin had declared
presentoccasion,deelaredtheirs ntimwehne t
sentiments
iislveonnteyw- twenty-four
tlhi:sueyr,svaer men
efrtecalled
on to turn upon their heels and pursue a different course.
To expect them to do
that was to ask them to expose

themselves to ridicule, and to subject to question the sin-
cerity of their own opinions. The Noble Lord had paid
a most well deserved compliment to the character, talents,
and judgment of a Noble Earl in another House, anal
was he (Sir C. Wetherell) to be called on to change his
opinion—not because that Noble Earl bad supported a
different view of the question from himself—but because
he had had the good fortune to have his own opinion fully
borne out by the eloquent arguments of that Noble
Earl.—(Hear, hear.) Again, the Noble Earl at the
head of the Government had not always supported
a measure of Reform like that which he now brought
forward ; and yet, though his opinions had not always
been the same that they were now, the House were
called on to support the latter without consideration of
what were the former opinions of that Noble Earl. Why,
even the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack—the
preternatural Lord Brougham and Vaux—had admitted
that the 101. clause was not a child of his own begetting.
Lord EBRINGTON rose to order, observing, that it
was not fair to allude to the recent speeches in Parliament.
The SPEAKER said, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man was out of order in the last allusion he made ; and
he must feel, that if the House of Commons defended
their own privileges from being dealt with by the other
House, they could have no right to interfere with the pri-
vileges of that House.
Sir C. V,' ETHERELL admitted the correction ; and,
after some remarks on the subject, asserted that it was no-
torious the Noble and Learned Lord had asserted that it
this was not his Bill. There was now a strange unani-
mity among them on the Bill. The united conscience of
the united Cabinet had required only six months tobe sub-
mitted to the crucible, before there was a perfect amalga-
mation of all the various opinions composing it ; though,
within that time, there had existed among them as perfect
discrepancy—some of them have been supporters of Mr.
Canning, the most decided Anti-Reformer that ever
lived. It was too much, however, for them to expect
from their opponents the same convenient or consci-
entious change of opinion. The Noble Lord opposite
must remember the Honourable and Learned Lord
now on the Woolsack. He once in that House sarcasti-
cally eulogized a Cabinet of a tesselated nature, with one
row of black and one of white, and one of a neutral colour
between. The same sort of eulogy would apply to the
present united and unanimous Cabinet, composed, as it
was, of violent Reformers, Anti-Reformers, and the neu-
tral colour between them. He now came to the call for
the adhesion of that House to the Ministry on account of
their repeal of the candle and coal duties. With respect
to the coal duties, he believed that the repeal would be-
nefit all the people concerned except the purchasers; and
that, consequently, an important branch of the revenue
had been taken off without an adequate advantage to the
public. The Noble Lord had spoken too of the candle
duties; but he had avoided alluding to the Budget, for it
was such a complete wreck, that not a plank was left—
not a steam-boat could be saved from it.—(A laugh.)
One would suppose from the speech of the Noble Lord,
that the country had no foreign relations ; for with
what confidence could any one ask that House to sup-
port the Ministry with regard to their foreign rela-
tions ? He would not allude to !nose than two things.
The first was that of Belgium : while the Government
here was scheduling towns and boroughs in England,
there were other persons scheduling fortifications in Bel-
gium. Much was wanted to be explained on that sub-
ject. Of Portugal not one word had been said, and as to
Greece, one would think that there had been no such
country since the time of Miltiades. He asserted that Por-
tugal] had been sacrificed to France. He asserted that the
interests of Portugal had been sacrificed to those of France,
and bad been sacrificed in the most impolitic manner.
He had thus briefly stated his reasons for not placing con-
fidence in his Majesty's present Ministers. He had for-
gotten to mention one subject, namely, that of the Game
Bill, which the Noble Lord had added by way of postscript
to his speech. He thought it was premature in the Noble
Lord to give them credit for that measure, as a wise and
sound part of the legislation of the Government, for there
had not yet been time to observe its operation. On the
whole, lie thought this resolution unnecessary. If the
Government meant to renew the Bill, why did they not do it
at once?—(Mr. HOME, " They will !") He was not be-
fore aware that the Hon. Member knew so well the se-
crets of his Majesty's Government as to speak in that man-
ner of their intentions. He had stated his own senti-
ments on this question, and lie believed that those around
him entertained sentiments of a similar nature. The Noble
Lord had done what he could to conciliate their favour-
able opinions and secure their votes, by the manner in
which he had brought the question forward ; but excel-
lent as the Noble Lord's manner was, it would not make
him adopt the motion.—(Hear.)
Mr. SHEIL said, that they lately inquired what the
Lords would do? We have now to ask what ought the
House—what ought the Minister—and (it is the most
important interrogatory) what will the people do? First,
then, what ought the House to do? Shall it transfer its
confidence from the Government to their opponents—
from those who may be well accounted the parents of Re-
form, to those who would affect to rock, and toss, and
dandle it with the hand with which they would have
strangled it in its birth ?_(Hear, hear.) Try them not
by their professions—but by their proceedings: by their
deeds—anal not by their phrases. Let us look for a mo-
ment back : the retrospect may be traversed with a
glance. Much of the mystery of Toryism may be com-
prised in a single word. Potent and comprehensive name,
famous in the topography of corruption, renowned and
ever-memorable East Retford! with what a ready articu-
lation it drops from the tongue ; but what a train of re-
collections and of anticipations it lets into the mind. It
recalls occasions lost—opportunity madly and sinfully
thrown away—the noblest game played with the falsest
hand. Warning was given to pride—admonition to
power— i
remonstrance was addressed to niatuation.—
Vainly did reason, justice, policy—vainly did Hus-
kisson adjure them. Then it was that the extremities
to which we have arrived were foretold—then it was
that the Sybil was for the first time dismissed then
it was that they were told to listen to the mutterings,
and to mark the flashes of that cloud which had even
then begun to overspread the political horizon, and which
was mistaken for the vulgar smoke by which the factories
of Manchester and of Birmingham were overhung. Then
it was that a clue was afforded to the real feelings of those
whose sincerity is so elaborate, and whose frankness is so
ostentatious; and the means were afforded of plucking the
mask from fraud—of uncloaking imposture—and of dis-
robing disingenuousness of its disguise.—(Hear, hear.)
You that affect to be advocates of Reform nosy, what did
you do then.—(Cheers.) In reply to all your promises,
professions, and all your vehement protestations in favour
of that vague and indefinite thing which you call Reform,
it is but necessary to whisper that East Retford in your
ears, which remorse should sculpture in your hearts. He
would pass to the second great epoch in the annals of
Toryism. The great Captain—he who seemed, like the
Roman conqueror, to have set up the statue of Victory in
the Senate-house, and to have overshadowed his adminis-
tration with the amplitude of its wings, uttered a single-
minded sentence, and the whole fabric of his power, having
no base in the public confidence, left not a wreck behind.
England swept the Ministers away. The King called
to his Councils a man who had given a pledge to Re-
form in his youth, and was resolved to redeem it in
his matures age. Lord Grey selected as his delegate
a Nobleman whose whole life was in conformity with
the principles which are inculcated by his imperish-
able name. It required some of the imperturbable
calm which results from a just tenacity to an honour-
able purpose, to have stood unmoved amidst the bursts
of alternating anger and of derision, with which
his unimpassioned and fearless expositions were an-
nounced. What the Treasury scoffed, the English people
hailed._with a boldness that required no ordinary intre-
pidity of asseveration ; it was averred that the nation did
not desire Reform; to this assertion the Ministers deter-
mined to give a practical refutation. The King went
down, amidst the acclamations of his people, to his Par-
liament, and to vindicate the rights of the one he dissolved
the other.—(Hear, hear.) There was outcry, and clamour,
and vociferation, and then came the booming of the cannon,
which was but the precursor of that voice of thunder that
called from one extremity of the island to the other. The
elections came. England, from her hustings, shouted for
Reform. There we again assembled. We were then told
that popular phrenzy had succeeded to public apathy, and
that the people, who before were lethargic, were driven mad.
We were told too, as a matter of reproach, that we were
pledged. Pledged ! Is it a crime in those who have
covenanted to discharge their trust, to declare it ? And
by whom was the objection urged? By many, whose po-
litical being is breathed into them by those who made
them according to their own images—by men, who cannot
be true to England without being false to friendship,
and must elect between perfidy to their patrons and
treason to their country. He should pass over the
several incidents that marked the progress of the
Bill. It wan, at least, carried in this House with
every circumstance of triumph. It went up, as
a message from the people, to the Lords, and by the
Lords it was contumeliously repudiated. In the debates
in that House, and in the debates in this, it was remark-
able that not one of all these who professed to be converts
to Reform, of all the venerable neophytes upon whom a
new light had suddenly and miraculously broken, there was
not one who carne forward, lie would not say With a

specific plan, but even with a mere outline or sketch for
the correction of the abuses, which they seemed to think it
a sufficient act of virtue, without any effort at amendment,
to deplore ; and in such men how could the friends of
Reform repose a trust ? Contrast their conduct with that
of Lord Grey, who had brought forward in 1831, the
very project of Reform which he had proposed in 1797.
(Cries of " No, no.") Ho repeated it—the plan of Lord
Grey in 1797, contained the disfranchisement of boroughs,
the household qualification, the increase of county Mem-
bers, and even the division of counties. His plan was not
fortuitously conceived and abortively delivered, but had
long abided in his mind, and was produced—fully and
symmetrically formed. He (Mr. Shell) rejected with
bitter scorn the insinuation that Earl Grey had resorted
to Reform in order to sustain the weakness and de.
crepitude of his Government. He had availed himself
of the first opportunity which was afforded him to bring
forward the measure to which he was from his earliest po-
litical lire enthusiastically devoted. In him the House
should confide. The next question was—what the Mi.
nister should do ? He should not in the storm leave the
helm ; and though the wave should wash overboard, be
should cling to the wheel.—(Cheers.) He should act
with vigour and firmness. His patronage should not be
bestowed where it would be requited with perfidy ; the
mitre should not be planted on any Iscariot brow.
(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition—cheers from
the Ministerial side.) Let him be but true to the people,
and the people would not be false to him. And what will
the people do ? That was the last question. They would
enter into a vast, a pacific, and a legitimate confederacy
—preserve the peace; but whi'e they shewed the know-
ledge of their rights, they would also display their deter-
mination to assert them. From every district of this
great country a voice would come, from which an insen-
sible ear could not long with impunity be turned. United,
confederated, resolved—indomitable, irresistible England
would demand that her Constitution should he given back.
To that demand will the Lords he deaf ? The first
wave had broken on the ramparts that were opposed
to it—it would only recede to collect its might, and
the second would roll on with a more fearful shock,
and a more imperious surge. The Lords would have
too much regard for their interests and for their duty
to oppose the unanimous will of England, or to expose
the coronet and the mitre to be blown off in the hurricane
of the popular passions. We should bear no more of the
privileges of Dukes and Marquisses to vote by proxy in
this House ; and " vested rights" in Gatton and Old Sa-
rum would excite but little respect. He had as much re-
spect for vested rights as any man ; but if any incompa-
tibility existed between what was called, by a misnomer
the most monstrous, the vested rights of this Duke and
that Marquis, and the sacred, the immemorial right of the
English people to be fully, freely, and fairly represented in
the Commons House of Parliament, he would not say that
he would merely give a preponderance in the balance to the
prerogative that belonged to the Majesty of the People,
but he would fling every other regard as dust out of the
scales, and disdain to weigh them against the franchise
which had come to us from our ancestors—which had
been won in so many a field of glorious victory, and had
dropped to us from so many a martyr scaffold, and which,
with the blessing of God, and the aid of their own virtu-
ous determination, would be transmitted by the English
people renovated and confirmed to the remotest posterity.
Sir G. MURRAY would not attempt to pursue the
Hon. Gentleman in his ambitious flights of eloquence,
❑ot merely because they were not exactly to his taste, but
because he confessed himself incompetent to such grand
eloquent elevations, which certainly left poor plodding rea-
son and sober judgment far below. He would rather fol-
low the Noble Lord through the calm, considerate, al-
though mistaken, view he had taken of the subject. The
Noble Lord bad said that the country was at an awful

crisis. He (Sir G. Murray) agreed that it was placed in
considerable difficulties, but he could not go the length of
saying that the crisis was awful. The Noble Lord had
also stated that the fate of the empire depended upon the
vote of to-night. He (Sir G. Murray) hoped that the
safety of the empire was founded upon much too solid a
foundation to be shaken by the decision of the House upon
this question, whatever that decision might be. The pro
position of the Noble Lord had two objects :—First, to
pledge the House to the principle of the Reform Bill ; and,
secondly, to elicit from the House an expression of its con-
fidence in Ministers. For the first there seemed no very
pressing occasion : the Reform Bill had been passed by a
majority of 109 Members, and it had been sent up to the

other branch of the Legislature, which, with great pro-
priety, after a patient discussion, had expressed its opi-
nion. That it had a right to do so no man at present
could deny—what might be denied to it hereafter, if the
Reform Bill should ever be passed, was a different question.
If it were meant by the first part of the resolution
to censure the decision of the House of Lords, which,
after what had fallen from the Noble Lord, he could
hardly believe, he saw additional reason for refusing his
concurrence. The Noble Lord bad alluded to the rights
of the House of Commons, but no attack had been made
upon them : they had been asserted and exercised. The
second part of the resolution was to express the confidence
of the House in the present Ministers. As to himself, a
Noble Lord had said on a former day that one of his (Sir
G. Alurray's) faults, us a Member of Parliament, was,
that he was too independent of his constituency; he repre-
sented his native county, and he thought he did not

represent it the worse because he endeavoured to exercise

an honest judgment : be should on this occasion pursue
the same course, and display the same independence.
When the dissolution of the late Ministry took place, and
the Noble Earl at the head of the present Government
was called upon by his Sovereign to form a new Cabinet,
he (Sir G. Murray) had felt no indisposition to give him
his confidence : he felt only that constitutional mistrust
that ought to induce every Member to watch the measures
of men in power ; but such as he approved he meant zea-
lously to support. The new Administration took office
pledged upon several points, and principally for the
reduction of establishments, and for economy. He
had no objections to any plans with those objects,
if they were adopted with prudence and caution,
and such a course Ministers had in the outset pursued.
What were the next measures ?—measures of finance ;
and the Noble Lord claimed a vote of confidence for Mi-
nisters on the strength of the reduction of the duties o❑
coals and candles ae measures of the highest importance.
He (Sir G. Murray) quite approved of these reductions;
but the question was, were they schemes of such magni-
tude as to call for such a special resolution ? If the unu-
sual step of a vote of confidence were taken, the Noble
Lord ought to establish some broad and distinct ground
for it. Looking at what had recently passed, he found
that Ministers had not received the apprpbation of the
House for their financial measures: they were even op-
posed by practical men of their own side of the House,
who thought that the projected scheme was inconsistent
with good faith to the public creditor.—(Cheers.) But
although Ministers had thus found it impossible to carry
through their plans, they had maintained the principle to

the last, reserving it to some future period when they
might have to deal with a House of Commons less scru-
pulous and more confiding. Their next measure mate-
rially affected trade, and nobody had imputed that it was
resisted upon party grounds. Here again practical men,
at other times the supporters of Ministers, came forward
and showed how unjust the proposed change would be to
the colonies, and how injurious to the commerce of the
nation. Ile was at a loss, therefore, to discover on what
ground such a vote of confidence was to rest, unless, in-
deed, upon the alteration of the Game Laws, under the
special auspices of the Noble Lord (Althorp)—a measure
he (Sir G. Murray) certainly approved—but not of that
reach and magnitude to warrant a proceeding so unusual.
He had thus touched upon the three chief claims of Mi-
nisters, as well as he recollected them, independent of
the Reform Bill, because the Noble Lord bad not
rested his claim to acquiescence in the motion
merely upon the proposed change in the representa-
tion. As to the Reform Bill, the Hon. ➢lember for Calne
bad said there were but two parties in the House and in
the country—the friends of the measure and its enemies.
Did he expect that those who had opposed the change in
the Constitution in this House in all its stages could con-
cur in this resolution? He (Sir G. Murray) had resisted
the Bill, because its principles filled him with apprehen-
sion. Since the Bill applicable to England and Wales had
passed, another to regulate the representation of Scotland
had bee❑ brought forward by Ministers, and to concur in
the resolution of the Noble Lord would imply some kind
of consent to the Scotch Reform Bill, which be (Sir G.
Murray) was not at all prepared to give. He considered
the Scotch Reform Bill highly objectionable on many
points. Those who had resisted not only the principle
but the details of the Reform Bill must be the last to con-
cur in a vote of confidence. Some changes had b'en
made in the Bill to which even Ministers had been opposed,
and to which they were still opposed, so that they them-
selves did not approve of the whole of their sawn Bill. It
had been asked whether it was possible to suppose that
Ministers had brought forward the Reform Bill to
strengthen their precarious hold of office? He did not
impute it to them, but their was certainly a remarkable
coincidence in point of tune, for they introduced the Re-
form Bill just when they were shaken in the opinion of
Parliament by the failure of their other prejecte. It
appeared to him that Ministers, when thus weakened
by the desertion of their friends and by the attacks of
their enemies hatiladopted the course taken by the early

inhabitants of England ; they Lad resorted to the dan-
gerous policy of calling to their assistance a power stronger
than themselves.—(Hear, hear.) In their distressing pre-
dicament Ministers had prostrated themselves before the
shrine of democracy ; and in order to purchase an alliance
with it, they offered up as a sacrifice the Constitution of
their country.—(Cheers from the Opposition Benches.)
As he had before said, when the Administration was first
formed he had felt no objection to give it all the confi-
dence that ought to be conceded by a Member of Parlia-
ment. He saw at the head of it a Noble Lord whose cha-
racter he respected, whose abilities he acknowledged, and
who, he had believed, had seen reason in later life to mode-
rate and modify the opinions on the subject of Reform
which he had entertained in earlier youth. Mr. Pitt had
done the same, and he had only attributed to the Noble
Earl that he had followed a great and just example. United
with that Noble Earl, in various departments, he saw in-
dividuals of the most distinguished talents. One of them
was an individual of vast and varied eloquence, and of ac-
quirements so extensive as to be exceeded by no man in the
country. That individual he had himself heard express
sentiments on the subject of Reform fir short of those em-
bodied in the Bill, and a letter from whom had been pub-
lished, which showed that his opinions were by no
means in favour of sweeping Reform. He saw also
in the Cabinet the Noble President of the Council,
who had always professed the most moderate views.
The three Secretaries of State were, in his mind,
sufficient pledges against a violent measure, and hence
he felt justified in feeling a considerable degree of confi-
dence in Ministers. Circumstances were, however, now
widely altered ; a Bill had been brought forward tending
to the subversion of the Constitution of the country. He
did not impute to Ministers that they meant to subvert the
Constitution ; but such would be the result ; and they had
held out the threat, that if this Bill were not accepted, it
would be followed by something worse. Such were his
reasons for not concurring in a vote of confidence, and
certainly the speech of the Hon. Member for Caine, one of
the ablest supporters of the present Government, was not
calculated to increase confidence.—(Hear, hear.) The
same remark would apply to the very animated address of
the Hon. Member who spokelast ; and what struck him (Sir
G. M.) as most extraordinary was, that while the Noble
Lord was claiming the confidence of the House, the
speeches of his supporters tended directly to make the situ-
ation of Government infinitely more difficult. Was it not
to be supposed that such speeches (inflammatory he would
not call them, but extremely strong in their expressions)
would be re-echoed in the country by persons less respon-
sible and less honourable intentions ? The Hon. Member
had talked of the brambles coming into power ; but would
such speeches as he had delivered, keep down the brambles.
—(Cheers.) Allusion had been frequently made to the
other House of Parliament: be had already expressed his
opinion of its independence and magnanimity : he still
looked with confidence to its proceedings, and with the
same anxiety that it should be supported in the full exer-
cise of all its functions. In the thirteenth century the Peers
had wrested from the Crown the privileges enjoyed and
maintained by the people, and to that estate he now looked
for the protection of the Constitution in these times of tem-
porary delusion. On all these grounds he resisted the vote
of confidence in Ministers.—(Cheers.)
Mr. STRICKLAND said the want of confidence by
the people in every Government was one of the signs of
the times ; and, he trusted, that the final and certain suc-
cess of the Reform Bill would re-establish confidence by
promoting syrup ally-, and would restore the Constitution
which had " grown with our growth, and strengthened
with our strength."
Mr. LITTLETON thanked the "Noble Lord (Ebring-
ton) for his motion, and referred to the manner in which
the Reform Bill had been sent up to the ot.•er House, car-
ried by a❑ unprecedented majority of the real representa-
tives of the people. He was of opinion that Parliament
ought not to separate for any time, however short, with-
out expressing its adherence to the Bill, and its confidence

in those. Ministers through whose instrumentality it was
still hoped that the measure would be brought to a suc-
cessful issue.—(Cheers.) He was satisfied that at this
critical moment it was only by the House of Commons

placing itself in the front of the coun.ry that a degree of
exasperation could be avoided, which might lead to the
destruction of the public peace. Another reason for con-
curring in the motion was, and he meant no disrespect to
the other side of the House, that if the present Ministry
were at this moment to retire, no successors could be
found for them.—(Hear, hear.) He did not doubt that
a,lventurers might come forward, but the late Cabinet
had undoubtedly forfeited all claim to the respect and con-
fidence of the nation. What confidence could be felt in
those men who, last year, had opposed the enfranchisement
of Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, and who, this
year, had resisted the disfranchisement of the most insig-
nificant boroughs?—(Cheers.) Some allusion had been
made to a letter, written by the Lord Chancellor twenty
years ago; but it ought to be recollected that it contained
his opinions on Reform as a question, in discussing which
he was to treat with an adverse Government. —(Elean) It
was surely one thing to propose Reform to an adverse Go-
vernment, and another to join with a friendly Government
in accomplishing it.—(Cheers.) Besides, at the date when
the letter was written, Great Britain was engaged in a war
with France, and the war had then reached its climax of
activity and severity—public attention was directed to no
other object, and it would have been as insane to have pro-
posed a huge measure of Reform then as it was mad to re-
sist it now.—( hear.) He adverted to this topic, because
only very recently he (Mr. Littleton) had made up his
own mind to support an extended measure of Reform.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) He avowed what was a

matter of notoriety to any persons who had thought it
worth while to read his speeches and to watch his votes;
but his opinions had been long nearing the point that some
comprehensive change was necessary. He had formerly hoped
that Reform might be accomplished by small means, and
he had, therefore, been an ardent supporter of the schemes
of the Noble Paymaster of the Forces. His hopes, how-
ever, had been disappointed, and he shared that disap-
pointment with the country at large. If, therefore, his
late conversion were a reproach, he shared it with the
country. He wished to advert to another topic connected
with Lord Brougham—his recent and miraculous dispatch
of business in Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever

might be the sneers of professional individuals or others,
he was sure that the performance of his promises had se-
cured to him more of the good will of the country than
any other act of his life. —(Cheers.) The brilliancy of
his early career had attracted to him the gaze of his
countrymen, and his gigantic intellect had now placed him
in a situation where he could most importantly benefit his
country and promote the general interests of mankind.
The achievement of this signal victory was sufficient to
procure for him the willing admiration of his contempo-
raries and the gratitude of remote posterity.—(Cheers.)
Col. SIBTHORPE said, that after the Reform Bill
had passed through one House of Parliament, and had
met with a most satisfactory reception in the other—
(Laughter)—now, at the eleventh hour, the Hon. Member
for Staffordshire declared that he bad within the last few
days made up his mind that it was a good measure.—(No,
no, and much lau4liter.) He (Col. Sibthorpe) hoped,
therefore, that the Hon. Member would have, before

long, an opportunity of supporting some reasonable mea-
sure of Relortn, less hostile to the Constitution, and more

in accordance with the real wishes of the people.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He (Col. Sibthorpe) could not be
expected to express confidence in the Ministry who had
never introduced any good measure. As for their Budget,
that he never could swallow ; it stuck in his throat.—
(Oh ! and laughter.) He knew that he was not much
favoured by the Press ; but he would, however, state his
opinions.—(Hear, asd laughter.)
11r. HUME and Mr. T. DUNCOMBE (of Hertford) rose
together, amidst loud cries of question. The latter Hon.
Gentleman gave way, and
Mr. HUME said—Sir, an Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man below me says that the Ministers called upon the
people, and excited them to clamour for Reform. But,
Sir, the fact is, that the people called upon the Ministry,
and in a manner which it was impossible not to attend to.
—(Hear.) The people (lid not want excitement. They
were, and they are too much alive to their own interests—
they understand too well the measures which are from

time to time in progress in this Ilouse, to have any occa-
sion to be roused or excited on the question of Reform.—
(Hear.) So far from there having been any necessity
that his Majesty's Ministers or others should excite the
people, if I may state honestly my own opinions and my
own experience, I will declare that even my efforts have
been much more exertcd to controul than to excite them.

—(Cheers.) The gentlemen who opposed the Bill in its
passage through this House are ignorant of the real state
of the feelings of the people, and they arc therefore
neither prepared to do the people justice, nor competent
to devise a measure which would fully meet their wishes. In
all societies there are some unreasonable men; and I know
that there are many persons who think me an unreasonable
man, as all epithets are given by comparison. But I should
be glad to be told who are the unreasonable men in this
case ? They who wish to maintain the influence of the
Peers in this House, or we who wish to turn that in-
fluence out of the House, and restore in it the just in-
fluence of the people, and to open the way for their re-
presentatives, who would know and support their inte-
rests? The people are kept out of their own House of
Parliament to make room for the minions of a few Lords.
In another place there has been much talk of this House

alaerecotmheingliaohl.ituaresentolefmDencleagraotuets:d
nßientivhleotsiTie.o_rarg'llo:,
boroughs but delegates? All the gentlemen wh.031.00
here from the boroughs in schedule A are notnentfatti
than delegates—(Hear, hear, hear)—and yet the loof
whose delegates they arc, talk about what
oth lit; of
Commons would be if the people were all 'yea. b.r/.
their delegates into it. I think, Sir, that a moor' ye
cileable measure than the rejection of the Refor
such grounds, never was adopted by a House of Lord'
(Hear, hear, and order.) The lion. Gentleman
rejectionivho nw
the House of Lords, he spoke in raptures of_ton,,
ocfritehsisordßeirli haashdsaiital thatallu
in which the Bill had been received there. I'4 6_ roll
think that he ought to have been allowed to eael't t;
approbation of that conduct, and that I shallr t it/
liberty to say that I greatly disapprove and eg,re,n,,'
(Hear.) But, Sir, my regret is not occasioned2)•'o'ol
prehension that the recent proceeding. oft
Hoare Y 1
stop Reform, but because it will force this flo
o,,eatior
a measure of more extensive Reform,
Bill sclto
able to the opposers of Reform than the
dhiengtotook
treOeetre,o3l:
been rejected. It is not because I suPe froa
tE
injur)o'
cause of Reform will suffer ultimately anY
division of those Peers that I regret the iginnlict a sie,
they have shown of the feelings of the peoPle* iret'j:
gether for their own sakes ; and I hope that tlw -00 tlgrc
manifestation of the opinions of the peoPle open
st 4
and mere
eyes, nor can I hesitate to say that before longe_e
them will be made sensible of the real state of "
„I bee° 0
nions.—(Hear.) I think that this House an-„,truistatj
may be assured that the zeal of his Majesty's
not to be damped, and that their exertions fo rite ete tt''*
the Hon. Member for Lincoln,
of the people will not be checked ; and Isla
Sir, that if this motion be carried—and I hep_ielidea°
t pill
carried triumphantly—it will have the effecta'n. to'
disappointed and indignant people, who vvill_Ahati;i tb
fidence in the Ministers, and will not be sari fled red I.°t
efforts for the good of the country, being supper For
patriotic King, shall be crowned with sae': of ti
divisioilareo
cannot be supposed, Sir, that a tbe '1) actopsV
country could stand up successfully against
most on" fait
(Loud cheers.) It seems to me the
thing that ever was contended for, that three - baiio
•_st c
hundred men should stand up against the .111 #m.
and the rights of twenty million•, and that. et rePre
a majority should refuse to the people their rtbe
ssentatiou. It has been the great boast 7 and
titution that it secured to the people 3 ',,urcely ,ef,„re:
representation. But the fact is that they are be
tented at all, and that consequently a small non' is 11,ea„#.
sons who have the nomination of Members tin stag,
enjoy all that can be grasped from the people '-ider it
of taxes.—(Hear, bear.) Sir, I should cons. tee-
, un
longer to be an honour to be a Briton, if ray tefet#,:v
did not manifest their indi nationat such here-re'
sathhosaeirindlalli:avEebg
rot, tby
resolve that itshould
be put an end to. I t d
that his Majesty's Ministers and the House cci-
'jed
Coster
decision of this night, that they are deterrn I;
by the Reform Bill until it is carried. I iiiiitlie.,rre•
Lord
who bears me to support the resolutions - fasgs ,ray
untilrrl
this question is finally settled to the saute,l4'tbe
the country.—(Hear, hear.) It has sot been ;oot
minds of the people, whom you never can enti'b'' their
been so long • deprived. The question niust, rpatio,ch
he settled, by surrendering the unhallowed °coital
that power, which is the right of the PenPloe'
has been so long withheld from them. I hav-#lllaer#q
persons talk of being, afraid of the influence °" t oie
But who are afraid of that influence, exeePtk tbf,s .0(0
keep from them what is theirs? Who ever "-„ure o'll
who withheld unjustly what belonged to antg-e-; $ll-t4
not afraid to meet that person face to face. -done t3t;
laugh.) No wonder, then, that they who have efealPlo
tor ofeol
in
hlre people are unwilling to meet their
the same assembly ; and, at the same time,
nit/ 01,6,i1
doubt that the people will act as becomes the tlig-,1•11
enlightened and high-minded nation ; that theY
pi'esso).
the resolutions of the House night with °-
this red
by i
As to the amendment, I wish it had been pror'vaifee
other Gentleman than a Member for one of ttleefortbe
ties ; for I do not wish the respect of the countrilioae'
learned and venerable institutions to be too Inue' reir,)'
although I know that on many occasions their reP rev/
tives in this House have stood in the way of Ineasu(ge'llt:
culated to promote the welfare of the poop e..
hear.) I did not expect that the Right Hon. ,„ pre pot
or any of his party would repose confidence in t'; did rt
Ministry, for they have always shown that diet,' 0)1'5,
wish the House or the country to be satisfied tvi„t' a Ofr:
of their conduct. But I can tell the Right Ile"; the,
tleman, that if the Ministers have not his conficiee:--tlsi!
saW tb'6ost
have the confidence of the country. I
meeting of many thousands of people, and I never
much unanimity at any • ' prevailed there
meeting as
subject.—(Cheers.) with
ry
Mr. T. DUNCONIBE—I have listened, Sir, •
little astonishment, to the attempts of Hon., ~ss°
opposite to escape the question before us. it • or <
question respecting game laws, or timber dutiee,
budget of last year, or a letter of Mr. 13reut,fa ber'
1810.—( Hear, hear.) The question simPlY
the people are to have Reform or sham Reforrrl'Housera
Let us look, Sir, to the position in which the re
the Administration are placed by the unfortunated order;
of the Reform Bill by the Peers.—(Hear, 50 pre et
Did not the King, in the judicious exercise of bia
tive, dissolve Parliament, in order to ascertain the;`
of the people on that important vital question
not their opinion ascertained in the fullest and 161.°,) /
vincing manner within these walls ?—alear' beaed t°
ol
what was the result ? The House of Lords refus,
sent to the wishes of the nation.—(Hear, by
The Reform Bill, framed by the Ministers, Pas. 0, .4
v
House, anti unanimously approved of by the -Hoer,c' o+t
rejected by a small majority of the Peers..--(00(1,4
order.) The question then for us to consitler,hs# IV/
question which is in every man's mouth, now tThlll'iti
been seen what the Lords have done —(0 r der).-
fl 0# ~
will the Commons do?"—(Cheers.) I will
presumptuous as to dictate what this House °°,7,olibt'l:l
or to predict what it will do. But I will take ti`t 001#
of saying what we ought not to do. We engt'a 6°06.1
allow the measure which has occu. d our 6-,,ti1.°1
long to fall to the ground like a Leon Tart rtf4
and without onewish b • " for It •
being expressed here ) D 0
siderat. ion and ultimate adopaion.—(Hear, hen
the trts,al
want to appear earnest in our desire to #neet toot "i;",
of the people upon the subject of Reform, we be 11°ibt
sit here without taking measures to tranquiffize ekate•
mind, and to give a reasonable hope that a full eorol
Reform will before long be carried successfully taro,:ej
r
TtA, lion. and Learned Member for Borongb,rsPreael,
number,rreins gtot
restored
to
oy. fortah party,
mamrtatyhn,
yeburawitngeidhet
tkghs
siavosefe
ivasnla:hteo,itic'tber,f:'l
frooefactit
other Hon. Members upon the same side, ha;eof „ei
great apprehensions respecting the consequenef-tbis
creation of Peers, with a view to the carrying :ogee °of
tion, and especially by a Whig Ministry. -'artfro.
those gentlemen that it is a bad precedent to 'arty
measure by such means. But if I can see 110
alf Ply
stitutional means, they must either meet Me 01 bf
liatuent—(Order, order! ,
show me the alternative, by which the just de6jariorit'o'sr
people may be satisfied.—(Hear.) If the 004
which the Bill was rejected in the other 14°,;at geld
hear !)-- o
to analyse it now; •
I will only say, that if it 'y the )
—(A laugh)—it would be found that either (Orlfair
Lords themselves who constituted that rnajoritr; t',#e
—or their ancestors, owed their coronets orgy itr; °jai
borough property. If I am not at libertl
particularly to that House, I may speak :,?-I.riao.-°
passed there as a matter of h. H '
history.—( en"„ay 011
It would be worth while to look to the 1" 000 or
of those Peerages.—(Order.) t goir4 tter
I ant no brie,be la'
history myself.
• Their creation could not
scribed than it has been b
11 and atrio..__
yan 0 , p 01.016 0/
dustrious w • tater, who called it the mode c" pave' t,►
Lord a mechanic, and a gentleman of a hot fit:
(A laugh.) But I shall not go into the proof 0,094#
description might be applied to the majoritY c'4,be, of
bt,
another place who set themselves against the Doroviii•
people. I shall only tell the Hon. Merobcr orm pfij
bridge that the people and this House have a rig, plel #
001 .0
tion for a new creation of Peers--nc,c on the P,,rl but
down by the writer to whom I have allude",th4t Percy;
true constitutional manner. I agree vii!lia I
and Learned Gentleman, that the remedy 's d..eagel
perate one. But it is not so desperate as the 1.
therefore of the two evils I choose the leo't*rt
told that such a proceeding would be to offer eneicl,A
tifiable indignity to the Peers, I would beg t° 6 oot;
have the people done that the Peers should have), lath,
them with so much contumely ?—(Cheers and matte ante
ruption.) I will not allude to that majority, or 0,50
tion is considered to be contrary to order, fultbewboto
say that I have asked some Noble Friends ofrninele sill, „.0
in that majority, why they did not allow the t° •
courtesy to the people and the House of Comnit-e'ratle
into a Committee, when they could make suclifaftefornive
in it as might adapt it to their own views ° eid 138,,
They all said that it was most true that such sti,°4
been the better course, but that they were told t
ea
did so they could not keep their majority 00 tll
(Hear, and a laugh.) If they did not reject thesP„be cola'
second reading they would have no attendance ithe GO
V
mittee. " What," said "no attendance in
I Tr; tt,'•

tit4l}ll4;ett'tiitee'etlit'lietuuirPicee:s
fib oying bo
seats to de
They have
hot paid oF
Reform, or
and laughs