The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

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'wha,ever.—(llear, hear.) Now, upon that subject
• eof the waste lands, I think it may be fairly
and truly contended that all the experience of the last
three years goes against the system of employing the
People in that way by means of the public money. We
have heard much of the wasteful expenditure of money
caused by the employment of peo, le on the relief works;
and I le lieve it will be generally admitted that the ad
vances of public money were directed to another are?
better channel when it was determined to lend sums to
the proprietors of the land, and so enable them to im-
peve their estates, and in so doing employ the labouring
classes around them. A sum of 1,500,0001. has been
voted for the latter purpose, and the consequence has
been that employment has been given in a manner not
open to the objection that lay against the expenditure
of the public money on the relief works, while the me
tional tendency has been to draw together the relations
that ought to exist between the landlords and the la-
hohring poor.—(Hear.) I must be permitted to say a
word or two on the propriety of the grant of 50,000/.,
because I find that almost all the arguments employed
to-night have been with reference to that grant, though
I had hopes that, seeing it was decided two nights ago,
We should not have been called upon to re-argue the
question again to-night.—(Hear, hear.) It has not
been disputed by any one that some assistance is neces-
sary to the western unions of Ireland; yet it has been
contended by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite that this
assistance should not be taken from the Consolidated
Fund, that it should not be taken from the other parts
of Ireland, and that neither should it be taken from the
local districts for the support of local destitution.—
(Hear.) Now, if this aid is not to be taken from the
United Kingdom, nor from any part of Ireland, how are
the means to be 'obtained of saving life in reland
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman the A/lember for
Radnorshire spoke of throwing the onus on her Ma-
jesty's Government ; but I beg to remvoitnidngthaeyeliorounsoe
that, in considering this vote, they are
a subject of life and death.—(Hear, hear.) I will not
enter upon the question of a diminished area of taxation.
It may be right or wrong to change the area of taxation.
It may be desirable to make the amendments which
have been suggested in this resreet, or it may not; but,
in such unions as Ballina and Westport will any dimi •
mete= of the area of taxation enable those unions by
eater exertions they can make to support the poor
with whom they are now burdened ?—(Hear, hear.) If
that be so, I do not think the warmest advocate for the
diminution•ot the arca of taxation would be prepared to
take upon himself the fearful responsibility of withhold-
ing all aid to the suffering and dying people of those
unions.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Limerick says that he looks to an extended system
of emigration as being calculated to benefit Ireland, but
he asks not for any vote, but that the people of Ireland
may be allowed to tax themselves for that purpose.
That enay be a right view of the question. Ido cot
wish to enter upon its discussion now, but I again ask
Whether the re exist any local means in Ireland for ob_
tatnine the necessary iunds to effect an extended mi.
gration?
Ur. MONSELL said, that he did not refer to the
toeel resources of Ireland, but to the national resources.
ne objected that there should be a general rate in aid
. towards the poor-law, but not to a rate for the purpose
of assisting emigration.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
explanation of the Hon. Gentleman I admit removes the
force of my objection. But I still ask, does the Hon.
Gentleman. believe that it is possible to raise by a rate
from the whole of Ireland a sum sufficient to support
the people in those distressed unions? Does he believe
that from from any source whate%er, except that proposed by
her Majesty's Government, it is possible to preserve
life in that part of Ireland?—(Hear, hear.) If the Hon.
ventlemen, and those who take similar views with him,
do believe that there is some other source, then they
can, with a safe conscience, oppose this grant; but if
tuey do not, then on the ground of humanity they are
bound to support it.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentle-
Mao the Member for Radnorshire (Sir J. Walsh) says
there is nothing extraordinary in the state of society in
the
Western districts of Ireland, and has declared it to
be his belief that the sole object of the Government in
Proposing this grant is to uphold the administration of
the Irish Poor law. That appears to me to be the most
extraordinary assertion that has ever been made in
this
Rouse.—(Hear,
hear.) My conviction is that in no
part of the civilized world has such a state of society
e.:er existed before as at the present moment exists iu
those western districts of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) I
":note enough of Ireland to be aware that what is true as
.0 the state of one part of that country is untrue as to
. another. I confine myself, therefore, to the western
districts, and I say that such a disproportion between
t ,11-0 quantity of food and the population as exists in those
districts I never heard of ever having been known to
exist in any other part of the world. I admit, if you
will, that the proposal of Government is against princi-
le, and that it is a mere exceptional case. Why,
brought it before the House—l did not say that t` e grant
to support the poor-law, or that it had anything to
by withe
means
sat law, except that it would be administered
the poor-law machinery. But I
brcought it foorfward believing it to be the sole means
of support. .
I not belie :7 life in those western districts. Had
posing ee so I should not have been justified in pro-
The Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Os-
. teernh!ef)ehoafsthdeistinctly said that he is against preserving
People in those districts; that he knows
, not what use these grants have been or will be. Why,
Sir, it has been shown that no less than 200,000 people
124,0 already been preserved from death by means of
these grants.--[Mr- OSBORNE—Where are they now?]
The lion. Gentleman says that it would have been much
better for them if their protracted misery had been put
all end to, and they had been allowed to die on the road
Or hill-side. That is what the Hon. Gentleman calls a
statesmanlike view of the question. Let those who
agree with him refuse the vote. We have heard a great
deal to-night of what ought to be the comprehensive
• and statesmanlike views of Ministers with regard to Ire-

• land, and my Noble Friend has been reproached for not
having taken a comprehensive and statesmanlike view
of the question. Sir, I thank God that at least we
have not taken that view of the question.—(Cheers.)
' Let my Hon. Friend refer to the documents laid
, before the House last year. Let him read the reports of
the Poor-law Inspector, of the Vice-Guardian, and of the
. Chairman of the BoArd of Directors of the Clifden Union,
In which they state the numerous cases that were brought
before them from day to day ot people dying by the
• r°adside from starvation, and of the poverty, destitution,
• r d crime which was continually on the increase. Let
read the report of Mr. Phelan, the medical inspec-
tor/ Which contains the most horrible accounts that it has
!ver been my fate to read of the state of disease and suf-
. iserlieg
to which the people of that union were exposed
• .° ele' from want of food. Such was the state of things
' In the Clifden Union; and such would have been the
general state of the whole of that district of Ireland if it
bad not been prevented by the benevolence of the British
e'n-sociation, and the grants made by Parliament. It we
wish not to see that state of things repeated—if we are
. Shocked .by the details contained in those reports, and
. 'would avoid devastation and death again spreading among
• that afflicted people, then 1 call upon the House to adopt
those means which were found effectual lastyear to arrest
t
. he march of pestilence and famine in the land. That
!e the ground upon which 1 ask you for this vote. I
believe it is a shame and a sin to which a Christian as-
, setnbly will not expose itself, that it should be respell..
Bible for having condemned to death, as my Hon. Friend
is willing to do, the population of a whole district in a
portion of this United Kingdom. This I am happy to
!ay—that her Majesty's Government will not take upon
Itself that responsibility.—(Cheers.) We have proposed
this vote, believing that no other means can be devised
to
we feel
il off the evil we apprehend, and in proposing it
thatl we have done our duty before God and the
world. you should refuse your assent to it, then, at
least, not upon us will tall the responsibility of that fear-
' ful calamity, which I
fbelieve will be the inevitable result
. such ,a re usae___.(chee„.)
Mr. OSBORNE explained. He did not say that he
wished to see the people die. What he did say was, that
he thought it would be much better for them to die to-
day, than to be reprieved from to. day and suffered to die
next Saturday fortnight.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
• be sorry to misrepresent his Hoe. Friend, but he
. took down his words, and his Hon. Friend said, that
. the grants had been of no earthly use to the people, and
that he would prefer that their protracted misery should
be put an end to, and that they should be at once swept
away, rather than be dependent upon Parliamentary
grants."
Mr. DISRAELI—I concur with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in thinking it
desirable that the attention of the House should be re-
called to the question before them. The proposition of
the Hon. Member for Stroud is, that this vote should be
made in the shape of a loan, and not in the shape of a
grant. Now, lam opposed to it, whether as a grant
:r as a loan, and therefore I shall vote against the
hiendment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who
48 complained of any discussion of this grant bt ing
-"hied necessary, has himself so fully entered into the
e . pardon me if
: expedient of the grant that he will
ardo not pass his observations altogether unnoticed.—
: zitt,:ametkare.(l)iy questionsnlonte of this kind gentlemen should
that distinction which peculiarly applies
utters partaking partly of feeling and partly ot po-
thers There is a sentimental view of the questioe, and
an re is a political view of it. It
. no?' Member of this •House, and tell him that if he does
you make an appeal to
eee"eent to some general act of humanity he will be-
themer responsible for the lives of his fellow-countrymen,
eau be nodoubt to as what would be the course he
. bee`"cl enstantly take. The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
r for c k h who has .addressed us tonight
veite v ec ermeut .a
• measure er great ability, says that he looks upon this
her' uas an appell of a dying beggar in the streets.
enir,"' sTgument of the Hon. Gentleman is irresistible if
• . the -I' Peal be made to himself. I can easily conceive
Member
a dying beggar in the streets might induce the lion.
to pawn his coat to give him succour. But it
appeal be made to the Hon. Gentleman as the repro-
ntative of the constituency of Cuckermouth it then as-
isaces a very different aspect. Every Gentleman no doubt
frequently receiving appeals to his feelings which he
'ends it
very difficult to resist. But what enables him to
resist those appeals? It is the stern and practical con-
', e.„ll,;ion hat if ho relieves all those who appeal to him he
" aeon be under the necessity himself of appealing to
°tilers. • And so it is in the present case. He must not
consider the present exigency of those who are sut-
,ernr.
in Ireland, but he must consider whether he, as a
representative of the people of England, is pursuing a
'yurse,•by- agreeing to the vote this night, which will
illove fresh vigour to a career that may ultimately bring
rent only distress but perhaps ruin upon those whom he
ettvreseate,—because, Sir, this, is net a new vote proposed
a particular occasion. The Chancellor of the Ex.
Chequer4_ has just told us that if, twelve months ego, some-
tuting like what is proposed had not been done, you could
ew.
of death, eu. no conception of the scenes of suffering and misery,
vice, and crime, which must have occurred.
Won, but, Sir, the Ministry have allowed twelve