The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 27, 1849.

from tor undue st-veriy ot the service rtquired trot
him. It was stated to be desirable that the soldier',
service ehould be apportioned thus:—ten years in tie
colonies, fifteen years in India, and five years at home
No one would mainiant that that was too favourable ae
arrangement for the soldier; but the result had bee::,
that from 1831 to 1838 the soldier had been at home, or
the avernge. only four years and one month, and from
1838 to 1842 four yeas and ten months. The addition
which bed been made to the army now enabled the sol-
dier to pass in this country the full period of five years,
which Here essential to the recruiting of his health aftet
service in the colonies.— (Hear, hear.) Although fifteen
years was the period assigned for the service
of troops in India, sonic regiments had beet:
obliged to remain there, from want of relief, for
nineteen, twenty, and even twenty•five ears.—(Hear
hear.) At present there were eleven regiments at borne
which had been litre more than five years, vvhilst
there was only one in the colonies which had been there
more than ten seat s, and only four in India which had
served more than ten years. If any attempt should b -
made to press more severely upen the British soldier it
would before long be discovered that such a thing was
anything rather than conducive to ecenemv.—(Hear.)
It was the intention of the Government to make such re-
ductions in the army as, without infringing the rotation
of the soldier's service, would consist with the duty
of a Government not to, they believed, maintain a
larger establishment than in their conscience the in-
terests of the country required. The Hon. Member in
referring to the events ut last year had truly described
the great mass of the people of this country as being at-
tached to the Crown and the Consti,ution. The spectacle
which this country exeibited during the past year would
form one of the proudest monuments of British history;
but it was apparent from the admissions of the Hon.
Memb,r himself that there was a risk of the contagious
example of the Continent spreading to this country, and,
under the circumstances, it was his (the Chancellor ot
the Exchequer's) belief that no greater armed force was
maintained than was absolutely necessary.—(Hear.) Al-
though the Hon. Member had spoken that evening in a
tone of commendable moderation, the language employed
by the Liverpool Financial Association in discussing the
same question was not equally temperate. In one of the
tracts issued by that associatien it was stated that the
army was maintained solely for the purpose of feeding
the younger sons of the aristocracy.—(Cheers.) Liver-
pool certainly was not the place from which such asser-
tions might have been looked for. Only last year the
Government received application after application from
Liverpool for additienal troops.—(llear, hear.) Troops
were sent and encamped on the outskirts of the town,
but the cry still came for mare, and also for the Suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Cheers and laughter.)
It was not quite just, nor, indeed, honest, in a town
which had benefited so much by the army in time of
need, to turn round and say that the army was main-
tained only to support the younger sons and brothers
of the English aristocracy. The persons who would
first suffer injury from any tumultuary proceedings in
this country would be not those connected with land,
but those connected with commerce and manufactures;
and it was, therefore, most ungrateful on the part
of that portion of the community to cast upon the
aristocracy the odious imputation of personal motives.—
(Hear.) The next source of expenditure, and no doubt
it was a very large one, was the ordnance service. Upon
that they proposed no reduction, because it was necessary
to maintain that branch of the service in fall vigour. It
was most expensive and most difficult so to maintain it,
and he thought that it Hon. Gentlemen would only refer
to recent events in India, they would agree with him
that. it was disgraceful to this country that, having such
edvan.ages in all the arts of war, as well as in civiliza-
tion, we hardly ever went into action in India but thee
we were overmatched in tha branch. In like marine
the principal increase was not in the increase of force,
hut from the change of the armament, both as to guns of
large as well as small calibre. He did not wish to go
into derails, but simply to refer to that which would
be brought forward in greater detail when the esti
mates were moved, namely, the increase, not only of
cannon, but also of small arms. A great change had
taken place, and he thought it would be an act of
cruelty if we rent our troops into action anywhere
witheut putting into their hands the best and most im-
proved kind ut arms. In the Chinese war a small party
of our troops, armed only with the common flint mus-
kets, were surrounded by 3,000 or 4,000 Chinese ; they
bravely defended themselves against that overwhelming
force for several hours, but, a shower of rain coming on.
their muskets would not go off ; a party of marines,
armed with percussion muskets, was marched to their
assistance, the Chinese immediately made off, and the
soldiers were rescued. There had been a large increase
in the expenditure of the ordnance department in conse-
qeence of that change, but when it was completed he
thought they would be able to make a reduction in the
amount of the annual estimates. To a great extent the j
change had been already accomplished. lie believed,
also, that there was a considerable reduction for stores
in the ordnance estimates for this year Certainly there
was a very prevalent feeling in this country not much
more than twelve months ago as to the defenc's of
this country not being sufficiently strong. He did

❑ot participate in the--ext.raordinary alarm that was
expressed by some Gentlemen on that (the Ministe-
rial) side of the House as to the danger of foreign
invasion ; but he thought the Government would
have neglected their duty if they had not taken fair and
adequate means for the protection of our great naval
establishments. Again, the great object, and a just ob.
ject of that House, had been to improve and raise the
moral. con,iition of the British soldier. For that purpose
better barracks were required, and that could not be
effected without. additional expense.—(Elear, bear.) If
we were to have soldiers of a higher and better deserip-
,ion, it was only just and right that proper accommoda-
tion should be afforded, so that that improvement might
take plac,—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gwntleman had
alluded very shortly to the increae in the miscellaneous
estimates. The increase in that expenditure had almost
al aa) s taken place in items that had been pres•ed upon
the Government by the House of Commons. Year after
year charges had been put to the general expen-
diture. Government were either called upon to un-
dertake, or did undertake, duties which previously
had been pertorrnt.d locally, and new charges,
of an enormous amount, had been put on the
miscellaneous estimates. Ho found that, since 1835,
charges perfectly new had been put on those estimates
to the extent of 600,0001. a year, and that on others
there had been, not an ordinary increase, from year to
year, but an increase by transfer and other things. Ile
found that by the transfer of the county rates, the in-
creased vote for education, the increased expanses of
convictions, and for printing, there had been an increase
of nearly 700,000/. He was not professing to deal with
minor sums. He was as much in favour of practical
economy as the H.tri. Gentlemen himself could be—there

was no;;ne in that House who could take such an interest
in economy as he who had to find the means of pay-
ment. But if they were to give that protection to life

and prop-Try at borne, and to trade and commerce
abroad, which he believed to be necessAry for the deve-
lopment of our indu trial resources, it would be impos-
sible to reduce the naval and military expenditure to the

extent the Him. Gewleman CO itenied 'or. They had,
however, kept that object iu mind, and lie would en-
_ . _

deavotir to show that they had not been behind in

@noting all practical economy. lie was happy
to -ay that he very much concurred with the Hop.

Genii man in believing that we were in a very

different position this year from that in which wo were
about, this time list year, when it was necessary to bring

4ward the votes at the time those estimates were
'nmar-d; and be it remembered, ahhough the French

revolution had not broken out, thero was a state of feel-

ing pervading Europe, and even France, which it might
be expected would break out, and which actually did
break out into rebellion, and no man could say at that
time what the effect of trial effervescence might be. He
thought, therefore, the Govertitnent would not have been
justified last year in reducing the number of the troops
or the number of men for the navy. His Noble Friend
stated that he was not prepared to reduce one man in
the course of last year, and he thought his Noble Friend
was justified by the occurrences that had taken place;
but he thought we were in a different position now. It
was evident enough in many parts of the continent that
those parties who were the leaders of the movement had
not seen much reason to congratulate themselves upon
it. There, as in this country, they had found that revo-
lution was a losing concern.—(Hear, hear.) In the
neighbouring country of France they had shown a pa-
cific disposition, by a considerable reduction in the army
and navy. Toe Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded—
I believe that the conduct pursued by my Noble Friend
at the head of the Foreign-office has most materially
contributed towards the preservation of the peace of
Europe; time has been gained for the passions to cool
on both sides, and men have seen the folly of engaging
in revolutions; and the chance of maintaining peace is
as different from what it was last year as it is p issible
to conceive, and there is but small probability, I hope, of
our being engaged in any hostilities—(Hear, hear)—
and the result is that we have telt ourselves justified in
making reductions. I believe that these few incendiaries
to whom my Hon. Friend alluded are deterred from act-
ing by finding how impracticable it would be to excite
the population, of this country to any unwise disturb•
ance. The mils are now pretty generally at work, and
employment general throughout the manufacturing dis-
tricts, where disturbances may generally be expected to
originate in times of distress. They are now not only
alive to the folly of engaging in outbreaks, but they
have not the inducements of want or distress to do so.
There is no prospect of any disturbance of the peace in
this country. The Hon. Member, in referring 'to the
events of the past year, entirely omitted all reference to
the sister country. Perhaps he will say, because there
was no great reason to apprehend disturbance there. I
belie% e, howevf r, that it was not the fault of the parties
themselves tnat disturbances did not take pktee.

Mr. COBDEN—I said there were not above one
hundred perions in arms.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—There
are, however, well•authenticated accounts that much
larger numbers were assembled, who were only re-
strained by the convic,ion of the presence of an imposing
military force, and it was no lault of the authors or the
insurrection that it dial not—l will not say succeed—but
come to a h-ad. Even there, however, there is little risk

of a recurrence, fcr I believe -Vint oithout some stimulus

nothiag of the kind is likely to break out on the part of
pea entry themselves; and this House has wisely armed
the Government with the means of putting down those
who are disposed to promote agitation.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir, the Government has kit it to be in their power to
propose a considerable reducion, both in the army and
navy.—(Hear, hear.) I shalt now refer to the state of
affairs in India, where wur has for some time pre-
vailed. The demand made upon us by this state of
things has been met by a reduction if three regiments
from this country. These regiments have been taken
off from the British establishment, having cea4rd to be
employed here. The actual reduction in number is
7,000, while the weight taken from the charge of this
country is three regiments.--(Hear, hear.) The army
lad year Amounted to 113)000 men; this has been re-

eluced to 103,000, which is tether more than the amount
of 1845, but rather less than that of 1846. The number
n 1845 was 100,000, that in 1846, was 108,000
men. Legit year wo were enabled to make a
considerable reduction in the expense without
any reduction of the force. I wish to state the
amount of those reductions which we have been
thus enabled to accomplish last year, without any reduc-
tion of the force, and to compare them with the reduc-
tion to be seen in the estimates upon the table of the
House; partly effected by a reduction of the actual ex-
pense, and pertly by a reduction of the force. The re-
ductions which were effected last year amounted in the
cours eof the session to 828,5004 The reductions in the
estimates of this year, as compared, not with the original
estimates of last year, but with the reduced estimates
effected at the end of the session, were in the navy
730,856/., in the army 378,624/., and in the ordnance
337.8734, being a total reduction in the naval and military
establishments of the country to the amount of
1,447.3531.—(Hear.) Sir, I do not anticipate being able
re ina'ke any great reduction in the miscellaneous expen-
diture of the country, from the large increase that has
takes-. place in our foreign expenditure. I, however,
take the reductions actually made last year, with those
As they appear in the estimates now upon the table of
the House, to amount to no less a sum than 2,275,853/
—(hear, hear.) I hope the House will take these facts
as a proof that we are not insensible to the call of reduc-
tion that has been made upon us, and that it will be ad-
mitted we have carried out whatever practical reductions
could be at present safely or reasonably made. It is
hardly worth while to go into any details in respect to
other items in which we have also effected great reduc-
tions, inasmuch as they must be viewed as inconsiderable
when compared with those large sums to which I have
already referred. Now the Hon. Gentleman has referred
to the charges for the collection of the revenue, and such
expe.eses. Sir, I can assure this House that we have
not been unmindful of this important subject, nor have
we have been induced for the sake of patronage, as it is
alleged against my Hon. Friend and his Government, to
keep up more offices than we think are absolutely ncces-
.ary for the general interests of the country. We have
since last year consolidated the offices of Paymaster of
Exchequer-bills and of Paymaster of Civil Services with
the office of Paymaster-General, whereby we effected a
:flying to the amount of 16,000/. in these small offices.—
(Hear,
hear.) We have also consolidated the stamps and
taxes and excite. I have taken upon myself the respon-
sibility of making some of these reductions. And I have
relied with great confidence, while taking this course,
upon the activity evinced by the Chairman of the Conso-
lidated Beard. Mr. John Wood, the most active public 1
servant that I have ever had to deal with. We hive been
thus enabled already to make further reductions to the
amount of 9,000/. or 10,000/., with the prospect of still
greater reductions to the amount of 8,000/. or 9,0004 more.
En like manner we have appointed Commissioners to in-
quire into the collection of the customs. I do not, however,
anticipate that any large saving will be effected in the
collection of the revenue, because such saving can only
be made by doing that which I would be unwilling to
to, namely, by lessening the accommodation afforded to
the commercial part of this kingdom. The Commis-
sioners of Customs, in their report, suggest reductions to
the amount of 50,000/. Now, when the Hon. Member
talks of the extravagance manifested in the collection of
the revenue of this country, I must state that he is en-
tirely mistaken in his impressions. We have heard a
good deal of the dissatisfaction that it is said is felt in
respect to the course pursued by the different boards in
the collection of the revenue, and in the keeping of the
public accounts. Let me, however, inform my Hon.
Friend behind me that the charge of the collection of the
revenue here, as compared with a neighbouring foreign
country, is very low indeed. In England the charge of the
collection of customs was under 6 per cent. ; in France,
however, where they had the advantage of more detailed
Recounts, the charge was 12 or 13 per cent. Now, the
charge of the collection of the whole revenue of
this country is only about 7 per cent.; whilst in France
it is 1l per cent. In another neighbouring country.
too, where the people were in the enjoyment of more
democratic institutions than even in France, where they
had almost universal suffrage, the expense of the col
lection of the revenue is no less than 43 per cent.—
(Here some Hon. Members appeared to express dissent.)
Now, mind, I am not dealing with any particular items
of the revenue—l am taking the whole amount of the
collection of the revenue. If I were to do so, I might
mention the fact that though the stamps were collected
in this country under 3 per cent., the Post. office revenue
was collected at a cost of 59 per cent. It is not, how-
ever, fair to take any one item or another. I take the
whole revenue of this country, including the Post-
office (which is alone an expense of 58 per cent. in
the collection), as collected at a charge -of 7 per cent.;
while that of France is 11f per cent., and of Bel-
gium 43 per cent. The Honourable Gentleman has
alluded to the pressure of taxation in this country.
Now this is a charge which it is very difficult to meet.
I doubt not that the Honourable Member would find it
as difficult to prove this assertion as it is difficult
for me to answer it. But comparing the incomes of
individuals of this country with the incomes of indivi-
duals in France, it is my belief that taxation presses
much less in proportion to the incomes in this country
than it does in France. I have, Sir, a long statement
which may be reasonably referred to on this subject, but
at the same time it is not one of those documents which
it is possible to quote for the purposes of my argument.
I find that in the course of the lust 20 yeurs the people
of this country have been relieved from taxation to a
moat enormous extent. The taxes from which they
have been relieved, too, were principally those which
pressed upon articles of consumption and materials of
manufacture.—(Hear, hear.) I am at a loss to under-
stand, then, the grounds for these assertiona which we
have heard now for the first time made, although we have
been told that they have formed the subject of grave
discussions in associations that have been formed through-
out the country, and have found the strongest expres-
sions in public opinion. For the last 20 years there
have been repealed taxes to the amount of nearly
20,000,0004, whilst during the same period there have
been imposed taxes to the extent only of I 800,0001. This
country has thus been relieved of burdens within that
time to the extent of 10,000,000/—(Hear)—or very nearly
10 per cent. of those taxes which we had to bear previ-
ously. This change was, however, still more material
than simply the mere amount would lead us to suppose,
because, while the taxes imposed were those which only
effected property, the taxes repealed were those which
affected the actual necessaries of life, and the raw mate-
rial for the manufaetures of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
In making these remarks let it not be for one moment
supposed that I am finding fault with these changes. So
far from it I must say that I entirely approve of them.—
(Hear, heir.) I entirely concur with my lion. Friend
in thinking that the absence of taxation up nf every ar-
ticle of food of lest year was an essential element for
maintaining the peace of this country. I am proud to
say that Ihave borne my part in the passing of those
measures which have contributed, in my opinion, in a
great degree to relieve the trade and commerce of this
country.—(Hear, hear.) But if we really luuk at the
great articles from which those duties have been taken
off within the last twenty years—when we remember
that corn of all descriptions comet in free of duty—that
we have meat and cattle free of duty—that the beer-tax
his been totally repealed—that the duty upon sugar has
been reduced from 275. to 135., more than one- half—
that foreign sugar has been reduced from 635. to 205.,
co!onial coffee from 6d. to 43., and foreign coffee from
203. t ) 6d.—when we, in fact, consider that all the arti-
cles which the great mass of the population consume
have been thus cheapened by the removal of taxation, I
think it is hardly fair that we should be met by this new
charge of pressure of taxation which is now bursting
into life for the first time. Within the last few years we
have seen, too, we have been relieved from the heavy
taxation which we had formerly to bear in respect to
sheep's wool, cotton, flax, hides, glass, and other
articles However grievous the existing burdens may
be to those who do not like to pay, wo must at all
events confess that the taxation upon the sources of
industry has been either wholly abolished or consider-
ably lightened.—(Year, hear.) Before I sit down,
I must take the opportunity of referring to the
lion. Member for Montrose. I do not agree with that
Hon. Gentleman in the propriety of the course which
he thinks it right to take upon financial matters. I cer-
tainly admit, after what has passed last year, that the
House has a right, upon some early day this session, to
demand a statement from me as to how far the expecta-
tions which I held out Isot year have been warranted by
the course of events since. The Hon, Gentleman may
remember that when I asked tho House to renew the
income-tax for a period of three years I did express my
hope and expectation that at any rate in these three
years, if the income-tax were renewed, and certain
other taxes were retained, the income of the country
would more than equal its expenditure.—(Hear, hear.)
This I said somewhere about the early part of the ses•
sion, when I think it would be admitted things were so
uncertain that no man could answer what a month or
six weeks would bring forth.—(Hear, hear.) Towards
the close of the session I, however, renewed that as-
sertion, and with much greater confidence I stated my
belief that the t xpenditure would be kept for the future
far within the limits of our income. Now, Sir, I am
happy to state that the experience we have had since
that time has fully borne out my anticipations. Ido not
kno et whether Hon. Gentlemen have in their hands the
balance sheet up to the sth of January, which is the last
authentic document of the revenue and the expenditure
of the country. The period which I referred to in my
anticipations was that up to the sth April. The period
which we have before us goes up to Jan. 5. I stated in
August last that I anticipated the ordinary revenue of
the country to amount to 51,550,000/, the old stores and
appropriations in eel to produce 50,000/, the China
money 80.000/, making altogether 52,100,0001. The
Hon. Gentleman, will, however, see, on referring to the
balance-sheet of last year, that what is called or-
&nary income amounts to 52,422,3381., and what are
called miscellaneous receipts, which are the three last
items, amount altogether to 118,6564, making the total
amount 52,540,994/., instead of 52.100,0004, as
I steticipated.—(Hear, hear.) This large sum of
China money, which we cannot fairly reckon
this year, I estimated at 80,0001. I have, however, re-
ceived 84,0001. Tnerefore, taking that amount off the
account, the income of the year up to January amounts
to 52,933,6931. My estimate was only up to April, and
was 52,100,0004 There is, therefore, about 800,0001.
Inure than I anticipated the revenue of the country up
to April would be.—(Hear, hear.) I estimated the ex-
penditure at 52,422,000/. It his, however, been rather
more than this amount ; but we must consider that we
were obliged to include in it, the expense of the Kafir
war, the naval excess, and the vote for Irish distress,
which I could not at Cie time have caculated upon.
Excluding then, these three items, which amount to
1.620,0001., the expenditure of the country is 52,563,3484
Therefore, taking the income, after deducting the re-
ceipts from China, and the expenditure, after deducting
these three extraordinary items to which I have re-
ferred, we find that the income up to January 5, 1849,
is 52,933,6934, and the expenditure is 52,562,3481.,
the difference between the expenditure and the income

being, I am happy t) say, a surplus of 370.000/., exceed
ing the sum I anticipated.—(Hear, hear.)
An Hoes. MEMBER—How much for c,rn?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
amount received from corn is 780,0001. The custom!
revenue for the year ending Jan. 5, 1849, exclusive 01
corn, is higher than the income which I expected to re.
ceive from the customs for the year ending the sth April,
1849—(Hear, hear)—therefore it is most satisfactory
for me to be able to make this statement to the House.
I disagree in the principle laid down by the Hon. Mem
ber, that I ought to be prepared to make a full financial
statement at this period of the session; but I think that
the statement I have just made Ought to be most satis
factory to the House. I shall, no doubt, lose a small in•
come in the course of the year by the cessation of the
corn duties. I shall also lose those extraordinary sources
of income of which I have availed myself last year—
namely, the appropriations in aid and the China money;
but, nevertheless, making full allowance for the whole, I
still anticipate a surplus. I reckon a loss of 700,000/.
from corn. In all probability there will be some re-
ceipts from this source. Assuming the losses to
amount altogether to 1,360,000/, I have yet to remind
the House that the proposed reductions in the
estimates, comparing this year with last, will
amount to 1,447,000/., so that there will still be a balance
in my favour between the income and expenhiture.—
(Hear, hear.) The income of this year will be better
than that of last year. And, unless lam greatly disap-
pointed. in my expectatidns, the expenditure will be
clearly within the income. I cannot, however, with any
degree of accuracy state now the actual amount which I
anticipated I should have over, but looking to the income,
upon which I confidently rely, I feel perfectly assured
that it will be fully equal to the expenditure.—(Hear,
hear.) I can only say that I hope I have now convinced
the House of two things—first, that it would not be safe
nor wise to reduce the expenditure at once or immedi
ately to the amount proposed; and, second, I hope I
have also shown that we are not unmindful of the neces-
sity of such reductions as are consistent with the real
interests and development of all the industrial resources
of the country. I hope that the House will express an
opinion upon this question, which I trust will be duly
submitted to its consideration in the mode it has beet,
brought forward. I hope Uit, as far as lam concerned,
I have met it fairly. And I hare also to express a hope
that the House will pronounce a clear and decided
opinion that it is not consistent with the real interests or
the country to effect such an amount of reduction as hat.
been proposed.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL had waited some minutes after
the Right Hon. Gentleman had sat dostin in order that
those Hon. Members who took a more immediate in-
terest in the question might have an opportunity of ad
dressing the douse, and of adding anything they could
to the very able, lucid, and convincing statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He expressed hie surprise that
no more distinct reference had been made to the case 01
Ireland in connexion with this subject, when it was per.
fectly clear that Ireland Had muchi to do with the finan-
cial ;question now exciting such vivid attention in al,
quarters. He had no hesitation in declaring his con-
viction, for instance, that bad anything like justice been
done to that country, two-thirds of the enormous outlay
there for army, constabulary, and political prosecutions,
would have been saved. The army in Ireland, even
in ordinary years, cost this country 1,100,0004 per
annum, and last ear, of course, very much more.
The police expenditure, also, was most heavy; the cost of
political prosecutions extremely onerous. Let Ireland be
treated with common fairness, with the barest justice,
and the necessity for these classes of expenditure would
almost entirely disappear. Hence would accrue at once
a most important financial reformation. Again, while
England paid to the customs, stamps, and postage de
partments of revenue twenty-seven millions a year, Ire-
land contributed but three millions; yet the rate of taxa-
tion in both countries was alike, and the population of
Ireland was one-third that of England. Why, then, this
enormous difference in the amount respectively contri-
buted to the State? Simply because the lrish people
were kept in so impoverished a condition that they had
not the means of purchasing customable articles, and had
no occasion for the use of stamps in the same way that
England had. Let them but bo properly treated; let
them but have the opportunity of attaining proportionate
prosperity; and in proportion of their numbers they
would spend as much as England: with this result, that
instead of contributing to the common revenue only three
millions, they would contribute nine millions, besides
being in a position to bear their fair share of the income-
tax.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS felt it necssary to say a few
words, as some professional observations had been made
by"the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cobden). He would, in
the first place, observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had pointed out some considerable discrepancies in the
statements that had been made with respect to the army,
navy, and ordnance—he had shown that 'elati increase
had not been 10,000,000/. in the fourteen years since
1835, but 6,000,0001; that, certainly, was a slight flaw
in the Hon. Gentleman's budget, although he (Sir De
Lacy Evans) was by no means unfavourable to the
Hon. Gentleman's exertions in favour of economy.
He thought, however, that he had only done his cause
some harm by indulging in personal attacks, because he
did not see why a reduction of the naval and military
departments of the country might not be discussed and
reduced to the lowest possible point without the introduc-
tion of any personal or offensive expressions. He had read
in the papers observations made by the lion. Gentleman
and his friends in various places by no means flattering
to the members of the profession. He would remind the
Hun. Member, however, that it was the fault of indivi.
dual members of these professions that the expenditure
had been increased. It was the fault of that Rouse, and
he believed that no army or navy in the world could re•
sign itself with greater obedience to the civil orders of
the Legislature than the British army and navy. He
thought tho Hon. Gentletnan would find it very difficult
to prove that the general officers of the array had any-
thing to do with the rewards and decorations which they
received. They had done their duty, and he thought
none in that House would deny them their rewards.—
(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the
clothing of the army, and had called them a set of
tailors.---(Loud laughter.) He did not complain of
that on the part of the general offisers, but on ap-
count of the tailors.—(Renewed laughter.) lie had
the honour of representing many hundreds, and they
were as loyal subjects and as good supporters of
economy as the Hun. Gentleman himself:. And with
regard to economy, he would say that ho doubted very
much whether any would be obtained by the alteration,
of the present system. The Hon. Gentleman had
spoken about hired mercenaries, and of marauding ves-
sels on the coast of Spain. These charges bad been
frequently made, and he hal always treated them with
t'he' nontempt they merited. The body of troops to
which he referred had served under the sanction of th.
Government and for the promotion of a policy which
was said to be most essential to the interests of then
country. He thought they should, under these circum-
stances, be exempted from these reproachful expres-
sions. He acknowledged that they had received remu
neration, and he thought they had deserved it. He con
gratulated the Hon. Gentleman on having received
very good remuneration himself.—(tlear.) He did not
mean to reproach him with it, because he thought
such observations on either side were both contemptible
and unworthy.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME was surprised at the introduction by his
lion. and Gallant Friend of such subjects into the dis-
cussion. His Hon. Friend had made no personal reflec-
tions, and was merely finding fault with the practice of
sending British ships at the expense of that country to
Spain, and the charge of marauding was not applied to
any individual officer connected with that expedition, but
to the Government who sanctioned it. He believed no
men could have behaved better than the military and the
squadron employed on the coast of Spain, and nobody,
'ablest instigated by the most malignant feelings, could
suppose his Hon. Friend capable of making persona,
attacks. The charge was made against the Government.
He had pointed out that the increase of the army and
navy had arisen from this system of interference
with the affairs of other countries. There was one
thing in which he perfectly agreed with his Ho-
nourable and Gallant Friend, and that was that it was
all the fault of the House of Commons and the
House of Lords; and he was prepared further to prove
that a vast portion of the expenditure authorised by
them was perfectly unnecessary. The House was the
trustee of the public money, and should take better care
of it. He would read to the House an extract from a
report of a Committee appointed on the 29th of March,
1817, which was granted on the motion of Lerd.Castle-
reagh, and he believed there were only fohr individuals
now in the House who belonged to that Conithittee. No
fewer than thirteen reports upon this subject had been
made to the House, and in the second of them, which
was made in 1817—the Committee was presided
over, he believed, by Sir F. Lewis—they called the at-
tention of the House to the large naval and Military es-
tablishments of the country when there was every pros-
pect of a long continuance of peace; and they
recommended that those establishments should
be reduced in order that the people might
be relieved from what they considered to be un-
due taxation. Why should five or six persons be
employed to do one man's work? No person' posses-
sing common sense would keep six coachmen when
one would answer his purpose as well ; and he main-
tained that it was the duty of the Government, as public
and paid servants, to employ only that number of per-
sons whose services were absolutely necessary for the
transaction of the business of the country. It must be
evident to every person who paid attention to public
affairs, that the system of promotion in the army had
invariably been kept up by aristocratic influence. Upon
a recent occasion ho had referred to official documents in
order to show that 1,023 officers had been retained with
rank and pay in the army at an annual expense of
127,000/., Solely for the purpose of placing in the hands
of the Government the power of granting promotions.
Colonial establishments upon an enormous scale were
also kept up, with the same view ; but he would not, on
the present occasion, enter into any details respecting
them. He must, however, express his regret that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been enabled to
bring the public expenditure within the revenue by a
smaller amount than 800,0001 during the last year. The
deficiency this year was 800,0001., and that on the sth
of April, 1848, was upwards of 2,000,0004; but, in his
opinion, a greater amount might hare been saved if the
Government had used due and fair diligence. It had
been said that a great reduction in taxation had been
made. True, the people's taxes had been in some degree
reduced, but they still had a claim for a further reduc-
tion of them. They had no right to bo satisfied with
the present state of affairs. In 1837 they paid
50,000,000/. for taxes; in 1838, 51,000,000/.; in 1839,
51,000,000/.; in 1840, 52,000,0001.; in 1841, 52,000,0001;
in 1842, 56,000,0001; in 1843, 56.000,0004 ; in 1844,
58,000,00 a ; in 1845, 57,000,0001. ; and in 1846,
58,000,0001. Thus it would be seen that taxation
had been increasing, and the people had a
right to ask relief from its great pressure.
Tile House had been told that the people of England
were less taxed thau the people--.of Entice, auci of

Bvlgium, but he (Mr. Huine) did not believe it. He
considered that no people on the face of the earth were
more heavily taxed than the English, especially the
middle classes of them. But even if they could bear the
burdens that were placed upon them, that was no reason
why they should be deprived of h single shilling more
than was absolutely necessary. He wished to know
under what peculiar circumstances this country was at
present placed to require a larger amount of money for
keeping up her establishments than she did in 1835 ? In
1835 the national expenditure was only 44,000,0004 and
now it was 54,000,0001. He could not trace causes for
such an increase, and the matter, he thought, was &-
servile.. of inquiry. His Hon. Friend the Member for
the Westi Ruling did not desire to make an immediate
reduction in the expenditure; he wished that it might be
done gradually. In 1821 an Hon. Member—Mr. Bankes
--moved for the appointment of a Committee to con-
sider the question of the public expenditure, and yet
the army establishment of the country was by no means
as great then as it was at present. In 1821 the army
consisted of 81,240 men ; now it was composed of
113,000. The Committee, in their report, begged to
assure his Majesty that they felt deep satisfaction at the
desire of the then Government to revise the taxation of
he country with the view of relieving the people of the
burdens which were pressing upon them. Increased
salaries in the public offices was also a question which
was prominently alluded to in the report of the Commit-
tee; and the same matter was likewise strongly observed
upon by Mr. Pitt and Mr. Addington in the course of
debates in that House in 1803 and 1804. It was then
stated that in consequence of the stoppage of cash pay-
ments in 1797, and an increase in the price of food, it
was necessary to raise the salaries of thase who had
perhaps 7004 to 1,000/. a year, and those who had
1,000/. a year to 1,0001, but no such causes existed now
for raising salaries and keeping up war establishments.
It was not, however, of the extent of our military
'orce that he complained. There were other depart-
ments in connexion with the public service which were
equally heavy in proportion. He would mention. for
example; the ordnance department. In 1792 the
expenses of the ordnance department were 4,848/4 in
1828 the expenses were 151,000/.; and now the expendi-
ture of that deportment was estimated at 471,0001. for
the year. In 1828 a committee, which was appointed to
inquire into the subject of taxation, called the attention
of the House, in their report, to the enormous increase in
the public expenditure, and painted out how, in their
opinions, it could be decreased without detrimert to the
public service; and the result was that the ordnance
force was soon considerably diminished. England was
now at peace with the rest of the world, and why could
not her military and naval establishments be as safely
reduced as they were at that period? With all due
deference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
must say that be bad heard no answer given to the
Honourable Member for the Wtst Riding with
respect to his question on the subject of the cause
of the enormous increase which bad lately taken
place in the public expenditure. In the report of the
iCm i
roah Committee i e
it me
iogf 18 h
th2eBi,
ni t was
hea
opinion
pailns
ioo
a o statedf that,the
that
this country should for some time after the conclusion of
the last war keep up a large military establishment, yet
they thought that the extent of the force ought to be
regulated by the circumstances of the nation. They,
moreover, felt it their duty to urge upon the House the
expediency of considering the pressure en the finances
the country, and the necessity in consequence of re-
ducing taxation. An urgent appeal of that kind, made
after the circumstances were duly weighed, ought to
receive consideration and be acted upon.—(Hear, hear.)
Of the 58,000,Q90/. of taxes, 28,000,0001. was perma-
uently applied to the payment of the interest upon
the national debt, but he saw no difficulty in making
s reduction of 10,000,009/. in the balance of 30,000,0001.
His Hon. Friend had, in his opinion, made out a very
-trong case, and he should give his cordial support to the
motion.

Mr. HERRIES called upon the House to remember
Ivhat was the motion which was under their considera-
tion. It was essential that the nature of the motion
hould be understood. The question was that they
should go into Committee of Supply upon the estimates;
but before doing so the Hon. Member for the West
Riding called upon the House to agree to a reduction of
the expenditure of the country to the amount of
10,000,0001. They were called upon to reduce the ex-
penditure to that amount immediately. And considering
he manner in which the motion of the Hon. Member
had been hallooed on at public meetings he was surprised
to see how little interest was taken in it on the other
side of the House. The debate was about to languish
!'or'svant of supporters when the Honourable Member
For Montrose rose, and he (Mr. Herries) did not think
that he had added anything of great importance -or of
weight in favour of the motion of the Honourable Member
tor the West Riding.—(Hear, hear.) The House,
having before a perfect knowledge of the condition
of the country—having also heard the explanations of
that evening—was now called upon to say whether it
was practicable to reduce the expenditure by 10,000,0001.
It the motion were that they would use all practicable
diligence to reduce the expenditure of the country there
was no one on either side of the House who would say
nay to it. It was a libel upon the House to say they
were not anxious to reduce the expenditure as far as
they could with a view to the safety and the welfare of
the country. By-the-bye, ho was reminded of the com-
pliments which the Right Hen. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had p aid to the Hon. Member for the West
Riding for the tone and the temper with which he had
introduced his notion. No doubt the manner of the
Hon. Gentleman was calm, and his tone was fitted to the
temperature of that House; but he could not help re-
membering that chat was not the,first time they had
heard the projects of the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear,
hear.) Ho could not help remembering that, for the
last six months; nothing else had been ringing in the
-ars of the people of Liverpool, and Manchester, and
ether great towns.—(Cheers.) True, they had heard
that night no diatribes against the aristocracy—(Heer,
hear)—no insinuations that the army was kept up for
he sole benefit of the young men of rank and fashion—
( liear, hear)—had been indulged in there. But if the
lion, Gentleman was to speak two languages, he (Mr.
(ferries) would infinitely prefer that he would be violent
here and decorous out of doors—(Loud cheers)—rather
Shan that he should be decorous there and violent where
violent language might be productive of bad effects. He,
r,,r one, could not join in the compliments which had
been paid to the Hon. Gentleman. And while upon that
topic be could not help saying that the conduct of the
Government upon the estimates during the last session
had very mainly supported the agitation of which they
had good reason to complain. The estimates were
submitted to a Committee—they were abstracted,
ss it were, from the cognizance of the House—
withdrawn from that full discussion which, in all proba-
bility, they would have received, and during which such
full explanations might have been elicited as would
nave rendered it impossible for the attempt to agitate to
succeed. He said the House was not used fairly in re-
gard to the estimates last year. It was understood in
the House that the estimates were referred to the Com-
asittee unconditionally, yet one of the first resolutions
hey came to was, that they would not enter into
my consideration of the policy of the estimates.
But that was the whole question as fir as the House
was concerned.—(Hear.) The secretaries for the vari-
ous departments came down and very quietly took votes
on account, the House believing that such a
step was only taken until the Committee re-
ported. The House had been kept in ignorance
of the fact that the Committee would not report upon
that subject. therefore he charged the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer with, in
some measure, having created the agitation, but which
he had certainly done good service that night in allaying.
They had been told that the revenue and the expendi-
ture were to be equalised—a gratifying announcement.
sad one which rendered it unnecessary for him to say
more upon the subject until the estimates were regularly
berore the House. Tho Hon. Member for the West
Riding had provoked a comparison between the expendi-
ture of France and of England, and had drawn the com-
parison as unfavourably for England as possible. He
thought that House had enough to do to discuss the
affairs of our own country, without affecting to criticise
the proceedings of any other.—(bear, hear.) He was
sorry to enter upon the subject, but he was provoked to
it by the Hon. Member. Neither could he altogether
regret the circumstance, because he thought a very im-
portant lesson might be learned by a comparison of the
conduct of the two countries in financial matters. If
they would review the finances of France and England
for the last twenty-eight years, they would see great
reason to applaud the English House of Commons and
Government, as compared with those of France. He
would show the comparative progress of expenditure
and revenue in the two countries which had been brought
so prominently under the notice of the House; but he
begged the House to remember that he was not a volun-
teer upon the occasion, but he had been provoked into
the comparison. He found that in 1820, a year when
our army of occupation had been withdrawn, and France
had returned to what he might call her normal state, the
expenditure was 38,000,000 L English; 1821, 35,280,000 L;
1822, 38,000,000 k ; 1823, was the single exception to
all the years between 1820 and 1830, which was the
time• of legitimacy—in that year there was the unad-
vised expedition into Spain, and the expenditure was
44,000,0001.—the other years ranged a little under or a
little over 38,000,0001. In 1830, a considerable change
had taken place in France a revolution happened,
which was expensive.—(Hear, hear.) All revolutions
were expensive, and tbose who promoted them ought to
tell the people so.—(Cheers.) In the happy year of
revolution the expenditure was 60,000,000/.; 1832 and
183$ it was 44.000.0001—it was then successively
40,000,000 L, 41,840,0001., 38,800,000/.. 40,000,000/.,
41 600,000/., 42,400,000/4 until in 1840 it rose to
44.000,0001; 1841, 46,800,0001.; 1842, 54,000,0001.;
1843, 52,400,0001.; 1844,, 55,700,0001.; 1847 it was
60,000,000/., and in 1848—another year of revolution—
it had arisen to 72,000,000 L These latter years proved
that the pressure from without, instead of being econo-
mical, was wonderfully expensive. A new dogma
had been started amongst the gentlemen of the Man-
chester school, that the more property was subdivided
the great r was the security against war, for every pro-
prietor know that he must bear the cost. Were not
these Gentlemen aware that during the whole period of
the increasing expenditure in France that subdivision of
property had been going on—did tbey not know that
such subdivision of property was partly the cause of the
war? Much of the increased expenditure had been
caused by the expedition to Algiers, which the higher
and more educated of the French people were mucho
against; but the pressure from without was too strong
trnthagt
for them. Let the Hon. Gentleman is-fleet
when he again urged the people on to agitation.up
might choose to give the preference to the democratic He
over the monarchic
them that if they
preferred the democratic principle they must put
principle, but when he next urged
on his followers, let him honestly tell
their hands in their pockets:: Now, then, look at the
Mr. HUME—Look at the expenditure of America.
English—
Mr. HERRIES contiuued—Re could not compare the

American Government with the English, because it was
impossible to tell what the expenses of a government
were when every independent state had an expenditure
of its own to bear. He was not going, however, to de-
fend extravagance or any unnecessary expenditure; but
he was going to show that we had been more careful
than our continental neighbours, and that there had
been nothing like a sudden passage in our expenditure
from 38,000,0004 to 72,000,000/, as there had been in
France.—(Hear, hear.) He found that the income
of this country from 1820 to 1825 was 56,000,000/., just
about what it was at present, During the next five
years, from 1825 to 1830, it was 54,000,000/. From
1830 to 1840 it averaged 47,000,000/. The expenditure
of these years from 1830 to 1840 was the least from
the year 1820 down to the present time ; but it
was one of these years which had been chosen by the
lion. Gentleman as the standard to which the present
expenditure was to be reduced.—(liear.) During the next
five years, from 1840 to 1845, the expenditure rose to
49,000,0001; and last year it was 54,100,000/. The re-
sult of the comparison, then, which he had instituted
between France and England for the last twenty-eight
years was, that in the latter the expenditure was nearly
the same now as it was twenty-tight years ago, namely,
56,000,000/.; whilst in France it has risen from
35,000,000/. in 1820, to 72,000,000/. in 1848.—(Cheers.)
In reviewing this period of our history, there was an-
other topic worthy of consideration, and that was the
amount of taxes which had been repealed of late years.
—(Hear, hear.) He found that since the year 1814
taxes had been reduced or entirely removed, to the
amount of 53,394,000/. Against that, 14,0.)0,000/, of
new taxes had been created, so that there was a total
diminution in the annual taxation within the last thirty-
five years of no less thee 39,000,0004—(fiear, hear.)
This was a result of which England had good reason to
be proud, for no other country in the world could
exhibit anything like a comparison with such
a satisfactory statement. It should operate, moreover,
as a lesson upon those out of doors, who were cla-
morous for a substitute of direct for indirect taxation,
and should show to them the advantages of a mixed
system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he must say
that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
the West Riding had been exceedingly ill supported.
They had all heard of it long since, and that was to have
been the night when the battle was to be fought. HoW
had it been fought?—(Cheers and counter cheers.) Why,
the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly abandoned, apparently
by all his friends.—(Cheers and ironical laughter.)
Why, nobody rose to second him.—(Renewed laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had certainly manfully resisted the motion, lie
(Mr. Herries) wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
sisted it more firmly—still he had resisted it, and that
was something. The Hon. Member for Montrose did
not tackle to the motion at all ; he had not stood by the
motion. He (Mr. Herries) was for reduction if you
could make it ; he was quite ready to go with the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, if he would go step by
step, and take precautions, but he could not believe that
the Hon. Member was earnest in making this motion.—
(Hear, hear.) lie did not think that the Hon. Member
for the West Riding anticipated any success from this
motion.
Mr. COBDEN—Wait; wait a little.
Mr. HERMES—He hoped they would come to the
discussion of these estimates in a different spirit; that
there would be an earnest desire to effect the utmost
possible reduction—(Hear, hear)—that there would be
no thought or wish to take one single step that might
not be conducive to that end, that might diminish the
strength of this empire, or impose on the military ser-
vants of the country heavier burdens than they now
bore, should they be celled on to do the same work with
diminished numbers.—(Hear, hear.) With agitation he
would not go a single step—agitation, founded on pre-
tended grievances without reality, and directed in op-
p )sition to classes who deserved not, either for their
conduct past or present, the obloquy and invective which
the Hon. Member for the West Riding, and those who
acted with him, had too frequently employed.—(Hear,
hear.) Let not Hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Minis-
terial side of the House impute to those who sat on the
Opposition any disposition to repudiate economy. With
respect to local burdens, he thought the Hon. Member
who introduced the present motion had been guilty of
exaggeration, for he spoke of the expenditure for the
relief of the poor being 8,000,000/.
Mr. COBDEN—I said that the money expended for
the relief of the poor, including Ireland, amounted to
8,300,0001.
Mr. HERRIES—But in making a comparison with
the year 1835, it should bo borne in mind that there
was no Irish poor-law then. lie was, however, glad to
find that the lion. Member was sensible that there ex-
isted a great pressure from local taxation.—(Hear, hear.)
They had been told that the aspect of public affairs now
enabled great reductions to be made; but when the last
estimates were under discussion, the Noble Lord had
adverted to the circumstance that they were made up
prior to the convulsions which had disturbed Europe.
Such being the case, he was bound to say that the pre-
sent state of things, though he hoped that affairs might
take the most favourable turn, should induce the great
est caution before the strength of our forces was reduced.
—(Hear, hear.) They had been told in most emphatic
language, that in Ireland disaffection was not extin-
guished, and that there were reasons fur fearing that the
present distress in some parts of that country might
possibly create disaffection beyond that which now ex-
isted. Such was the tenor of reports from the Poor-law
Commissioners. Therefore he repeated that they should
be careful how they diminished the public forces, who
might yet, unfortunately, bare duties thrown on them in
addition to those which they at present had to perform,
and which the night Hen. Secretary for the Home
a.partment had described as extremely onerous and
severe.—(flear, hear.)
Hr. M. GIBSON thought it was not very consolatory
to the landed interest to find the financial leader of the
agricultural party holding out such slender hopes of any
material reduction in the expenditure of the country,
etc/muting to discourage those who had plans to offer—
(near, hear)—and throwing some censure upon ;he 6o-
yernmeut fur the efforts avers they were making to reduce
that expenditure. ‘Thetever was to be proposed in the
nature of relief to the landed interest must have its foun-
dation upon a reduction of expenditure —(Hear, hear.)
It was agreeable enough to give a popular vote for the
rope .1 of this or that tax, but no man could give such a
vote honestly unless prepared so to follow it up as to
leave a surplus revenue to apply to that relief.—(Hear,
hear.) A Noble Duke had said, in another place,
that the malt-tax was doomed ; but no one was
justified in holding out any hope of relief to
the tenant-carmera unless prepared to reduce the ex-
penditure in order to put such advantages within
their reach. Did Hon. Geatlensen opposite mean to
repudiate?—(" Hear," and a laugh.) Were they pre-
pared to put in jeopardy the public faith?—(Bear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. lierries) had com-
plained of the lion. Member (Mr. Cobden), for holding
language of one kind in that House, and of another kind
in public meetings, being decorous in the House, and
violent and inflammatory at Manchester; and it must be
owned that it was natural for a speaker to sympathise
with his audience, and when addressing those who were
apathetic upon the question of reducing public burdens
he might feel a heavy weig)lt—(A laugh)—while in ad-
dressing earnest and animated public meetings be
might be drawn into some degree of enthusiasm.—
(Laughter.) But it was surprising that the Right lion.
Gentleman should accuse the Honourable Member of
what he termed democratic tendencies—using
the word as one of reproach (though there
was no reason why it should be so considered.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to have laid down
as a principle. that the fewer out of a people had pro-
perty the more conservative was the tendency; or, in
other words, that the greater the number of paupers and
destitute persons in a state in proportion to its popula-
tion, the safer its institutions were.--(Oh, oh.) That
seemed to be the effect of his comment upon the state-
ment made respecting the division of property in France.
—(Oh, oh.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
that he did not know why the subject of local burdens
was introduced; why, no part of those burdens could
be transferred to the State--there could be no aid from
the consolidated fund—except by reducing the expendi-
ture; and the greater the amount of local taxation in a
country the stronger the claim to have the general go-
veratnent carried on at a low rate of expense. lie (Mr.
Gibson) firmly believed that England, with the large por-
tion of the wants of society in it supplied by local taxation,
might be the cheapest governed country in Europe, as far
as the general expenses of Government went, and ad-
hering to our existing institutions.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had not attempted to answer the
Hun. Member (Mr. Cobden), to dispute his facts, or to
show (the anus probandi being upon the Right Hon.
Gentleman) that the augmentation of the expenditure by
10,000,0001. since 1835 was necessary; but he had talked
of some discrepancy, and of 6,000,000/. instead of
10,000,000/. But, the statement of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer amounted to this, that to make a re-
duction of 10 000,0004 would require a less diminution
in the armaments than the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden)
proposed ; and whereas the Hon. Member said, that a
great number of the augmentations of our warlike
establishments and expenditure had been caused by
special occasions which were passed away, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer not disputing that, supplied more
of these specialties, and said that, having created a
steam navy, the expenditure thereby caused would be
brought to a close, and he spoke of f0r2,300,00ti-
stores, packet-service, and steam navy, and suchchttlies,
racter,
more or less of a temporary and special character,
ex-
and not to be continued as a part of permanentthei e.nteibson) nos
extremely of the country. In fact,
extremely sanguine that between his Fheri(end
(Mr. Cobden)
and the Chancellor of the Exchequeritw like
that the expenditure should be reduced would be
something
managed
wed time.—
10,000,0004, if the Government were
(Laughter.) Why it had been done before, a
reduction of
alb
etween 1827,
or thereabouts, and 1835. There
10,000,000/ in a few years ending with 1835, when the
since then,
lowest p >int was reached—reductions brought about by
the uneasiness and pressure of the public; but
the attention of the public being withdrawn, the profess
sions had been dictating to the executive Government,
anl having their own w
ay in additions to the establish-
wants. The
lion. Member (Mr. Cobden) had therefore
precedent and experience to back him, and was only in-
viting to a campaign which was successful belore. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to begin with, said that he
wets going to make reductions now to the extent of
1,500,000/.; then there was 1,100,000 E for the Kafir war,
which he said would not occur again ; here were
9,500,000/. out of the 10,000,000 l.; and he (Mr. Gibson)
did not despair at all. He was very sanguine as to re-
ducing our military establishments much further, espe-
cially when he saw how very much men of great autho-
rity and station and experience in public affairs differed
as to the amount of force necessary to be kept to secure
the safety of the kingdom, for the contrariety gave
reason to hope that there was no settled principle, and
that it was merely a kind of haphazard yielding to the
professions that caused the expenditure to rise till the
public complained. The Duke of Wellington wrote a
celebrated letter calling for very large additions to our

mill ary expenditure; ho proposed (for everybody
seemed to have an inclination to go back to acme stan-
dard) that the stores should be compared with what
there was in 1804, adding--" I have taken 1804 as the
standard, as that was the year in which the invasion was
threatened; it was previous to the employment of the
armies in the Peninsula and North America; in short,
as nearly as possible similar to the political circum-
stances in which we stand at this moment; excepting
that we are now at peace with France, we were then at
war."—(A laugh.) In 1845 the Noble Lord at the head
of the Foreign-office complained that no country in
Europe was in such a defenceless state as England; the
Right Hon. Gentleman then at the head of the Govern-
meat thought otherwise. These things almost made one
suspect that this was a party question, and thought •
good card for gentlemen in opposition to play.—(" Hear,
hear," and a laugh.) But it was perplexing to any one
who, having no professional skill, really desired a guide.
But with regard to the armaments of 1835, if they wete
so inadequate, and the stores reduced so low as was al-
leged, how was it that Sir Thomas Hardy, one of the
most distinguished men ever connected with the British
navy, put his hand as Lord of the Admiralty to all those
estimates, and was a consenting party to placing the
dockyard, in what was now described by the Secretary
to the Admiralty as a state of destitution? When the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) left the Admi-
ralty in 1834, he left (as it was stated in the evidence
before last year's Committee) a memorandum as to the
amount of force he considered necessary for the safety
of the country; and it seemed that he judged half the
present naval force sufficient.—(Hear, hear.) If the
stores were so unduly reduced, how was it that the first
estimate of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and
the Duke of Wellington in 1835 proposed 1,000 men
less for the navy than were left by Sir James Graham,
and a less vote for stores by nearly 100,000/.?—(Hear.)
A Gallant Admiral (Bowles) stated in his evidence that
even our present. naval force was not adequate, and that
every man whose opinion was worth anything knew it
was nothing like what it ought to be. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty asked him
—and there was a great deal sometimes in a question—
" Did you ever know a time when the profession was
satisfied with the existing force?"—(Laughter.) He
should like to ask what, supposing their force was doubled,
they should do with it? What did they do with the
large force they now had? He found, from a return laid
be.ore the Committee, that last year there were 31 ships,
with 8,337 men, in the Mediterranean Sea; and he
wanted to know what object connected with our interests
was effected by that armament?—(Hear, hear.) Did
the knowledge that we had so many line-of-battle ships
in the Mediterranean enable our merchant ships to enter
any foreign port in better condition than the ships of
other countries?—(Hear, hear.) Did they enter any
port of Italy or France in better condition than the ships
of Ham burgh, or Sweden, or Bremen, or the United
States of America?—(Hear, hear.) Did this parade of
armaments in the Mediterranean Sea protect our ships
from piracy? Were there, in point of tact, any pirates
there? He believed not--(Hear, hear)--but, supposing
there were, our great line-of-battle ships were wholly
incapable of going into all the creeks and crannies to
which pirates had resort, and would not be of the
slightest advantage to the small class of shipping ex-
posed to the attacks of pirates.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
was it true, or not, that the existence of this large fleet in the Mediterranean Sea was the cause of the in-
crease in the French navy, and did goad on the French
to increased exertion to put their naval force on a
more effective footing?—(Hear, bear.) In the Pacific,
and on the south- east coast of America, which, though
formerly divided, now formed one station, there were
26 ships, and upwards of 4,200 men; but what were they
kept there for? The late First Lord of the Admiralty
stated in his evidence before the Committee that if the
Mexican war was over, and if this question and that
other question were settled, he did not see why the force
in the Pacific could not be reduced to what it was in
1835.—(Hear.) That was just the proposition, toe cer-
tain extent, of the Hon. Member for the West Riding.
The late First Lord of the Admiralty said that when the
circumstances which caused the increase bad passed
away, the armaments should be reduced. So said the
Hon. Member for the West Riding; and, so far as he
could judge, so said common sense.—(Hear, hear.)
What circumstances, he asked, were likely to occur to
endanger British trade and British interests in that
part of the world? Was Chili or Peru going to make
, war upon them?—(hear, hear.) Ile did not know of any
country in the world that had a force equal to that
possessed by this country in those seas.—[Admiral Dun-
das here made an observation that was inaudible in the
gallery.] Ile knew nothing about the French force
now, but ho knew that last year there was no foreign
force adequate to our own in those seas. Even, how-
ever, had it been otherwise, he would not be of opinion
that this country ought to keep up a costly armament
because France or some other nation had done so.—
(Hear.) When they found their trade interfered with,
or threatened, it was time enough to send a squadron in
its defence; but do not die from fear of death—(Hear,
hear) —do not in a time of peace keep up an expendi-
ture as disastrous as if war itself were experienced.--
(Hear, hear.) They had heard a great deal about regu-
lating their force by foreign nations, and that they
should keep up as large an amount of men and ships as
France and other countries did. There were some specu-
lative apprehensions lest foreign armaments should be
used for the purpose of some sudden attacks, and it was
said we ought to be prepared to meet them. Now, just
compare the number of our officers with those of France
and America, the two countries they were so often called
upon to copy. He found from the French navy list that
they had onc,tulladmiraloshile in England there were 31;
in France there were 10 vice-admirals, in England 45;
in France 26 rear-admirals, in England 72; in France
160 captains, in England 554; in France 200 eom-
menders, in Eeslanet 87G; in France 600 lieutenants, in
England 2,353: so that there were 931 officers to take'
care of the navy, while in England they had 3,931.
Then, as r garded the United States, he found that they
did not keep a single admiral—(hear, hear)—while
England had 150, besides those on the retired list; and
there were in America only 67 captains, 47 commanders,
arid 327 lieutenants.—(Hear, bear.) He must say
he was perfectly at a loss to understand why the Govern-
ment, when they were making reductions, should confine
themselves exclusively to the reduction of men.—(Hear,
hear.) lle did not see why they should not keep what
forces they had in good plight, and why regiments and
ships that were retained should not be perfect of their
kind.—(Hear, hear.) He did not see the necessity for
having the same number of ships in commission, or the
same number of regiments that they now had. He
thought that, by getting quit of some of these, they
might greatly reduce their expenditure ; but this could
not be effected to anything like the same extent by
merely reducing the number of men.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herties) had
taunted his side of the House with backward-
ness in supporting the proposal of his Bon.
Friend the Altrnher for the West Riding ; but
he felt bound to tell him that he supported his Hon.
Friend's motion most cordially, and that he did not re-
gard it as wild and visionary. He did not expect to
carry his object to-day, or this year.—(A laugh.) His
Hon. Friend had not asked them to do so.—("Oh, oh!'
But he had asked them to declare that their present
expenditure was excessive, that the amount of taxation
impeded the operations of agriculture and commerce,
and that they ought to reduce the annual expenditure
as soon as practicable.—(A laugh.) He believed that
the present financial condition of the country, in refer-
ence to its safety from foreign dangers, was one that re-
quired the deepest consideration, and he asked, if at any
lbrmer period, when they were called upon to make a
great national effort, they could have done so with an
annual expenditure of 60,000,000/. ?—(llear.) In 1793,
when i: was found necessary, the country did make an
effort; but were they sure, now that the Reform Bill was
passed, that the people of this country would provide them
with an addition to the great amount of taxation they now
paid, in order to make one of those great national
efforts ?—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the commer-
cial strength of the country was more important to its
safety than the mere strength of its armaments.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the knowledge on the
part of foreign countries that our finances were in a
prosperous condition, and that our taxation was not
wound up to the highest pitch, would do more to prevent
them from invading our territories or interfering with
our colonies and trade than any mere demonstration of
the number cf ships in commission or of the number of
regiments on service.—(Hear, hear.) When foreigners
saw so many ships and regiments, they were apt to say,
" Never mind; they are taxed so heavily that lib:. „ can
bear no more; they can't fight, it's all a mere share."—
sour posi-
tion.—(Oh, (Hear, hear, and " Oh, oh I") That was, in fact, c
the feeling
tion.--(Oh, oh !) lie believed such to b
No, and cheers.)
throughout Europe at this moment.—(No,
Would Hen. Gentlemen say that .ny Henn.ofGBe,notOteoD,OatOttO
was nothing?—(Hear.) Wouldlasatb—yuer(:: an addition of
-tax was universally refused--
ay2 per cent. to the
Conservative
and
Protectionist Members
say, with the recollection that
e, and by Conseur.v_
theL ,
dpeople of this country Would
a t i on
t?n—(l. I
formere ar, hear)ti
m e,. They were
too—that h
me p t as .
and, it be-
nsuebrminit
the pocketsofthe
'loved them to husband their resources in time of peace
—to leave more monb _
camnderchant sailors to man future navies—
tthoei
spacer increased taxation?—(Hear, n
so doin
y g produce more merchant
(flea*, hear)—to leave money in people's pockets that
sndthin-r,er,
more manufactures and more steam-engines
ships fructify
dgive
teethe coantry.—(llear, hear.) If they exhausted the
means and energies of the people in time of peace they
prevented them in time of war from being able to give
that assistance which otherwise they would be so well
able to confer. Much was said of dockyards, and what
they could do for us; but they never heard of what could
be done by private manufacturers towards making a
great national effort.—(Hear, hear.) He so mush relied
upon what could be done by means of private nsanufac•
turers, that if he wanted a steam-frigate for speedy ser-
vice he would rather have it built in a private manufac-
tory than in any of the dockyards.—(Hear, hear.) In-
stead, however, of depending upon private enterpriee,
they had gene on building war-steamers far beyond what
existed in any foreign country, and at this moment they
had a greater number, largo and small, than was pos-
sessed by at y other country in the world. Not only so,
bat they had at the same time kept up the number of
their sailing ships. He called upon the House then. before
they treated lightly the proposition of his Hon. Friend,
so recollect that all measures taken up on a large and
comprehensive scale were generally met in the first in-
stance as visionary. He hoped, connected as he was
with the agricultural party—(A. laugh)—that they
would not turn their backs on the proposal,hu t that
they
would regard it as one which would ultimately
lead to the common welfare of all classes of the com.
munity.—(Cheers.)
Ha Mr. G. BERKELEY said Sir hardy was not in
the Admiralty in 1835, as had been statedr by
the gem
Gentleman.

Mr. GIBSON had stated that Sir T. Hardy was in
the Admiralty when Sir J. Graham was there; that-he
left it in 1834, and was privy to all time reductions