The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-17 00:00:00

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Ireland did, eyen'in a time of tileir pros-perity, he was con.
vinced that not all the force of England woad keep the-in quiet
After a few Words from Mr. Culla-Els-the Petition was or.
dered to be printed:

ABSENTEES-
' Sir T.•LETHBRIDGE then rose to present a Petition, of
which he had giVen notice,. fYoth the county of Sornerset,signed
by about 600 'persons roiding in the neighbourhood of Rath.
The subject of the -Petition' had exciteda great deal of atten-
_ don hr that quarter, and he was anxious to press it upon the-
attention of his Majesty's Ministers. He did not expc..at that;
the Petition woirld-ecite the displeasure of the Chancellor. of:
the Exenequer, for it praya-for.sOnfe. additiOnal taxes. . The:
Petitioners 'Were ppeersons w 10. had' deeply participated in, the
distress. whiCh affected...the . s:ountry,„,and they looked to the
matter of which they now cOin_plained as one of.the colla-
teral causes of that distress. The tax :which they prayed
for was one. upon Absentees... They stated *that Many persons
of high rank and fOl-tune, had 'gone to the Continent. to take
up their residence. In 'Paris -they calculated. that there were
now, ten thousand familiess-froin the different 'parts of Eng-
land.- These they supposed •.t0 consist, upon an' average, of
five individuals, each -of 'whom' Woultrexpend, one guinea
_per'
day, 'that was 50,000 guineaS itAay, for. the whole 350,000
guineas a-week, and 18,200,00 Q gtineaK in a year. This was
only. in Paris ; and the other towns of F ranee-and' the-Conti-
nent were tilled inn similar proportion.: ir'Brasselt, they had
the testithony. of the Noble Marquis, in that able.and enlight-
• ened.speech which .he delivered last night,: that the English
were. so numerous as to give tli6 appearance of an English_
population to tkestreet. And thiS was urged as, a reason for
'our high, expenditure for Foreign7Ainlia.ssadorsi 'The Peti-
tioners alsd complained of the practiee of sending the youth of
both sexes to the:Carithient Tor • their,' education; thereby in-
juring our nationak,seminariei, destrOying..'the • national dm-
ratter, and, as in •one.recent trtd.lainerttable instanee;under-
' mining the faith of the' Established Religion of-the country.—
They prayed... that 'the Rolise :weilathe. pleased to' lay a tax
upon the property or itieinue Of :all,abS'entee,..to'such an extent
as shall make theth fully. Share the, taxation. . and -burthens, of
the country. They". also prayed igtAlfe.l-Iouse, would prevent
the payment of sifii.tbe:,..aincty and. ,navy,, pen-
sioners, or annuitants, .white...llhey out of the country.
—He was aware that there W45-'4.kinus,...for. going to ,01,*
countries in • the -:CheartheSs :the, difference-of
the ExchangesW4S .25 or 4.0 ..-PVT;4iit:: in•their favOut.-.1.17(N0-; no.).
• He believed it wak'nearly as 41:)ite,.tlpt;—(No.
But for his Own.' part he ikbqkv.r.aufeelikuxihmeountry with
501. a yc.--ar than in any:other With a;thu.-04.arger,incothe... He
M hoped, that his, ajatY"S...iniste-i:wiitill,l :itirtn their. attepti:# •
to this subject, and' he was-sure th/ifvucitax.-cOnld-lie
lar at this, fiecattsb.• it would press. O_pon the ,rich:afone.:. -The
distresSrof the Petitioners ,they believed- to -.be increased .try
this cauie, and he WaS';'.stirryl'iliarruithing had yet been-dOneito
afford-relief. Ire 'woiild,rat'berieve ;Chat' there w-.:re:no-means
of affordil sit; but he was. sire '.'Ministers had not given:
their minds;properlyto . the . sulißct. If: some;hing` were not
done, it was impossible to caktirate-. what consequences might
ensue. •
•

Mr.. RICARDO glijected to, -the
.prV•er''of the Petitioners,.:
He would first set the Ifori.:Bargiiit: it as-to the exchanges. -
(Hear 'far. from there beiitg a .di. erpnce.. of 20 per_ cent;
they were'. nearly- at lA.; Indeed they must be.* as- we.. were
now returned to a ffetallic currency, for witkrthat.-.ithe' ex-
Changes could . never vary beyond ,a very trifling. difference
Ile shonld be extremely sorry-if the' prayer of.this- Petition
were ever to be'granted: "Brit what surprised
that the Hon., Baoiriet.slre4rld support such a.propesition; and
at the same time Supkort_a SySterra of legiSlature,,wlrich.offered
the greatest-popible teniptationS for people goingabroad. - The
system • advocated-4 :the Ilori. Baronet was that of making the
necessaries of life and the price of labour so excessively dear,
-as to drive people tO. countries, where they could• beobeamed
cheaper. Besides, the .COrii.la‘vs;there. was .another.hranch of
-our policy which' assisted us prOdneing the evil;-complained
of by, the Petitioners. lie 'Was COnvin cecf tllat this might be
the uheapest country of all others to live in; and ihAt the cajii,
7tal of the whole World would .flow.rntO it,
.irAtoad of 'our.gorng
nut, if we acted upon" sound: Principles of legislation. In ad-
dition to the system of our Corn Laws, he meant the System of
Loans, and the enormous national .deli We-had, accumulated.
He might be accused of 'wild'eliteories, but he .saw no reason
why the national debt might.not "begot .rid,-of by-a fair Con-
tribution of the property of the country..-(Hearr)He meant
from the funded interests;, as well as all others.--,(Hear, hear.)
If this'svere dOne, he.was."peisuaded the country would rise to
a state of -prosperity far beyOnd'What their iMaginations could
conceive.lear,, hear?
Mr. DENNIS 'BROWN concurred in the. prayer of the'
Petition. He thouglit'abqentee'S were the chief cause of the
present mischiefs in Irelarid.';: and it was not • the least of the
hardship, that the weight of the taxes fell upon residents, and •
that the exemptions were generally in favour of absentees..
He called upon those whose duty,it was to watch over the in-
terests of
.the emPire,to.biidiforward some spemfic measure
on the subject.
Mr. H. GURNEY said, .he thought the-Chancellor of the •
ExchegPer would find-it, difficult to assess the Tax proposed by
the Hon: Baronet.--I.(A (Mr. G.) thought there
should be general freed*. of ,egress and regress for all his. Ma-
jesty's subjects, ,withoitt.diitinetion ; and- especially he• con,
skinned any distinction wh-Ali gave a preference to the rich over
the poor.—(Hear, hear !)-Ile .Made this observarion.in-conse:-
.qUence of several labouring artisans having been recently -ap-
.prehentled at DoVer, brought up to Bow-street, and committed
0.-prison for want:of bail, merely because they wished to go to
Paris, and settle idihe way of business.'. He thought thelaw in
this case was extremely hard, and he trusted .it would be. al-.
",tered. It would be easily inferred that he did not approve of
the suggeStiOn of', the. Hon; Baronet, and that he thought there.
,should be no yeat*tian whatever.

•
Tar. picAiNsoN.thought emigration ought to. be discou-
ra'ged. History had'ilieyni the mischief, which emigrants oc-
casioned the country they left.
The GIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should
not have addressed thellefuse on the present occasion, did he
not fear that the total, silence of Ministers on the subject would
lead to a belief .that they diiregarded the complaints alluded
to by the Petition. There was, however, considerable• diffi-
-culty in the Way- of carrying the suggestion of the lion. Ba-
ronet into effect; indeed, he trusted the Hon, Baronet would
give him credit fOr having exerted himself as much as possible
in the way of taxation.—(A laugh.)—He had always thought
that a tax upon Absentees would be a very popular tax ; but he
_never could think of one which was unobjectionable, and at the
same time practicable. 'With respect to the observations of a Rt.
Hon. Meniber (Mr, D. Brown) as to Irish obsentees, he thought
the Right Hon. Gentleman must be mistaken with regard
the operation of the law, as the taxes paid in this country were
heavier in proportion than those paid in Ireland. Upon the
subject :generally of loss of taxes by absentees, he had di-
rected calculations to be made as accurately as possible upon.
Returns from the several Tax Offices ; and, the result satisfied,
him that the loss of taxes from absentees was not more than,
11,0001. a year. Absentees in foreign countries might in general'
be divided into two classes. The first was composed of those
who travelled for:,amusem.ent, and most:of them returned in a
'short time, haVing kept on their establishments in their absence;
these, of course, paid taxes, and the loss from them was little'
or nothing. The second class might be formed of those who lived
abroad for purposes of economy and for the arrangement of
their alfairs. In this class were many noble and respectable in-
dividuals, and it Was from the absence of them that the loss was
principally occasioned. But he Would put it to the House
whether it would not be most harsh, 'as well as,impolitic, to'
pass any measure seeking. to compel them to return to this
country, in which -they had already found it inconvenient to'
live.--(Hear, hear !)—Addressing himself to the observation of
an lion. Member (Mr. W. Gurney) respecting the Law af-
fecting Artisans, he had no hesitation in giving it as his opinion
that the industry of English mechanics ought rick to be locked
up.--(Hear, hear !)—As to those who resided abroad with a
view M economy, he thought that the best way to bring them
back was to induce, rather than to compel.; and that the in-
ducement would be, the making of the country comfortable and
inviting—(Cheers.)—,Upon general grounds he was perfectly
satisfied that England, as a ialace‘ of residence, would always
he preferred; and-that when prices became equalized, the
absentees would return with increased regard, for the institu-
tions and the comforts of their own country.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said he was convinced that every.
Half-pay Officer who lived abroad was induced to do so by
poverty rather than inclination.
W. SMITH said, that after the avowal which the Right
Honourable Gentleman had made of his opiaion-respeetingthe
law which restrained artisans from • leaving the country, lie
trusted that that Right Honourable Gentleman would bring in
a Bill to remove those tyrannous restrictions. It was Fnagt ty-
rannical, when a poor man attempted to escape from poverty,
to seize and throw hith' into a prison, while a rich man was al.

PRICE SEVEN PENCt

.. •
lowed t 6 go where .he.pleased. The'law• -itself; indeed, qvas
absurd ;•forit could notprevent..any Man who pessesseticapi-
tat going to a foreign country,-.and. rivalling our .manufacturet.
He perfectly agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchegder,,that
England "votild'be preferred_ as a place of residence, and_ that
the way to invite-the preference would. bato.reduce priees:. lii
this fespect he fully concurred in the, views of his Hop-Friend
the Member for Portarlington. • - . • e
Mr.' BROWN explained; and the, Petition was then
brought Up;- read, and ordeied to lie on the table; and be.,
printed.
• EMBASSY TO THE SWISS CANTONS.. • .

Mr. WARRE rose to-bring for War- the motion of which he •
• had given notice,'relative to the Einbasay to the Swiss Cantons.
The. Honourable Member 'adareseit the Roil-Se in so lowa tone •
of voice, that his observatidns'Were frequently' very indistinctlyy'
heard in the gallery. He began by stating that he shonld.at all
times feel it necessary to offer some apology to the House fin-
obtruding himself on their attention, more particularlY when he •
rose to bring forward a subject which hid alieady-undergofte
considerablediscussion. He could assure the Ilausee hoWevei,
that in return for the ;favour of theirattentiose, he Would confine
hirriSelf strictly to the subject of his Motion, withoUt going
into the. consideration of the general queStion, which was dis-
cussed last night.. But though it was his intention to compress
his observations wit& as short a limit as possible,he at the same
time felt .it to bethe duty of every individual Member who--
brought any question under the consideration of the House, to
'state clearly and -distinctly, to the best ()This ability, the reasons
upon which Isis motion wastfounded. The object at which he
• aimed was a reduction of the expence of our Embassies. The
tecessity of h reduction of the public expenditure in every branch
which 'admitted of reduction was.a point So generally conceded;
.that he did not think it necessary to makanatny observations- on
that part of the subject. In proceeding then directly to the sub-
ject of his motion, hesbegged leave shortly.to call the attention
of the House to the documents which had been laid upon their
table by the. Noble Marquis (Londonderry) as well as those for
-which-he (Mr. W.) had moved, which formed an histOrical narra-
• five of the missions to the Swiss Cantons. By the return which
had been laid on the table by the .Noble Marquis, it appeared
that from the year 1750. to 1783,, four Ministers had been. sent
to the Swiss , Cantons at a salary of 1,5721. Frorki the year
1783 td 1792, an individual mince' Braun; who- had been
'ended to last night,'diseloarged the functions. of Charge d'Af:
Mires in the Swiss Cantonsfor a salary of 2501.. Whether, in
the reductions which were made in 1786, Mr. Pitt -bore in
blind, what had takenplace at Paris three years before, he could •
nOt pretend to say, but he could assure the Noble Marquis, .
:that if-he tqok the liberty of alluding to the salary of the Ames
rrean Ambassador, it was,neither with the design of subverting
the Mona; chy, nor from any desire to wage war upon the Consti- -
.tution. If the general sort of charge which had been thrown out:
by'the Noble Marquis meant any thing, it would operate as a
Seto against. ever naming the, salaries of 'Ameriian Ambassa-
dors, lest the parallel should have the effect of overturning the
existing institutions of Great Britain: He would venture then to
Suggest, the possibility,, that when Mr. Pitt reduced the salary of
the ltinister to the Swiss Cantons, he recollected the fact of Dr.
Franklin, who hasl.been sent by the rising Republic of Arno:
ties as Ambassador to the Court of Paris, and who in point of
diplomatic skill completely over-matched our own Ambassador
'Lord Stormont, at a Salary of 1,0001. a year, including the ex:-
Tenses of his Secretary. The Noble Marquis had become so lass •
Odious' hat he could not bear to hear any allusion made to the es-
tablishments on the other side of the-Atlantic, but he (Mr. W.)
could not see why it was not quite as justifiable to allude to the •
institutions of the modern Republic of America, either for the
purposes.of illustration, or with a view of holding them up to the
imitation of our own country, as it was to advert to the ancient
Republics of Greece. or Rome. - He now came to the period' at
which the stale of expenditbre,with regard to the Swiss Missions,
'Underwent a change, namely, from 1792 to 1798. It was true
that the scale adopted by Mr.- Pitt was much higher in point of
salary than that received by .Mr. Braun, , but he begged the
House to consider what was the state of Europe at the period •
*When Mr. Wickham began to negotiate with the French Re-
public in the year 1796. Buonaparte was at that time victo-
rious un Italy, Belgium was conquered, and, in fact, Switzer-
land was the single isolated spot in Europe in which tee were
able' to establish a mission. He begged leave to call the atten-
tion of the -House, to a Document which proved the importance
• of this mission, arising out of the peculiar circumstances of
Europe at that•period.—(Here the Hon. Member read an ex-
. tract from a Letter addressed by the Minister Plenipotentiary
from his Britannic Majesty to the Swiss Cantons to the Mini- '
ster of the French Republic, desiring to be made acquaint-
ed with the disposition Saf - the French Republic 'to-
wards a negotiation for the general pacification of Europe.)—
From die year 1799 to 1814, with the exception of a Special
Mission for a short time after the Peace of Amiens, the state a •
Europe .rendered it impossible for this country to send any
Embassy to the Swiss Cantons. At the Peace of Amiens, Lord
Liverpool, then Lord- Ilawkesbury, did send a Gentleman of
the name of Moore on a sort_of Special Mission, who remained
out of the-country .a few months and then rem-fried. The next
pfriod was that from 1814 to 1320, when Mr. Stratford Canning
was sent as Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary
to the Swiss Cantons. • The Noble Lord stated last night, that
the object of Mr. C.'s Mission was the organization and resto-
ration of the Swiss territory; and he had referred to the ,Treaty
on the table; of April 1815, from which it certainly appeared
that a considerable degree of diplomatic business had been
transacted in Switzerland. The. Declaration of the Allied
Powers, in regard to the Helvetic Confederation, was made On
the 20th May, 1315 on the 3d of April in the same year, the
Diet of Zurich was attended by the different Ministers of the
Allied Powers, among whom Mr. Canning was present on the
part of this country, anti Baron Krudener, as Charge d'Affaires
for' he Russian Government., The result of their deliberations
was the re-incorporation of the three Cantons of Le 'Valais, Ge-
neva, and Neufchatel. A Protocol was also signed by the dif-
ferent Minister; relative to certain cessions made by the King of
Sardinia to the Swiss Cantons. The object of the Allied Powers
was to restore Switzerland to its former state in point of terri-
tory, and to guarantee its neutrality ; and he believed the tern-
tonal state of Switzerland was now just what it was in 1796.
The argument of the Noble Marquis, therefore, for the neces-
sity of a Minister Plenipotentiary to"the Courts of Wurtem-
burgh and Bavaria, on the ground of the territory of those coun-
tries having increased, could not apply to Switaerland. The
'Noble Marquis had said that the House was not To estimate the
necessity of a mission to any country from the quantity of direct
business which might be transacted there. He (NIL W.) Pro-
fessed himself utterly at a loss to Conjecture the nature of the
diplomatic intercourse between this country and the Swiss Can-
tons. If dispatched were sent there with a view of being after-
wards forwarded somewhere else, why, he should be glad to
know, were they not sent directly to the Ministers to whom they
were addressed? The avowed object of the mission in 1615 was
the maintenance of the, neutrality of Switzerland. Now hew
could neutrality be violated except by hostile aggression from
without ? France was sufficiently disposed to violate that netts
trality .41,1,798, and it was possible that she might be disposed
to violate it now. But it was not the resident Minister in the
Swiss Cantons who could first discover-such hostile disptaitiops,
and make the necessary communications to the Secretary ofState.
It was the Minister of the hostile GoVernment,. who; if he had any
eyes or ears, would firstbe able to observe the ineroase of military
force, the disposition to infringe exiseing treaties, and ether in-
dications-of a hostile character, which he would of course com-
municate to his Government at home. There .could be no -ne-
Stessity, therefore, for so expensive a mission as that.of 1815,
for the mere purpose of preserving the neutrality of Switzer- •
' land. Neither he nor his Friends 'around, him cottiei ,be
charged with inconsistency, on the grotiod "-of having for-
merly supported the establishment of 1314 for it would he
recollected that when the Noble Lord opposite brOught
down an amended estimate for that establishment, the Honour-
able Member for Knaresborough.(Ms. Tierney) moved for a
. Committee of Inquiry, and subsequently, on, the ipOtion .for
bringing-up the Report, the same Honourable Meintter, made
another attempt, by proposing an Amendment, to induce the
House to pause before it sanctioned that establishment. It 'wag
;sometimes urged as an argument in support of diplomatic este,
blishments, that it was necessary to keep them up on a scale of
relative intercourse, and that if a Foreign Powersenisan
Em-
base,y to this country, it was necessary for us to return thecoma •
pliment. Now, he entreated the House to mark hen'', imposs
Bible it was to apply. this argument in the case of, Switzer/and.
Let the House mark the conduct of Switzerland with, regard to
her missions. Fixed Missions she had none; whatever Em.
basaies she had ietit to this country had-been special. The last
Mission which SWitzerland sent to.this country was,in 1815; so •
that. as- soon as hes, neutrality had been guaranteed, and her
thanks recorded in the face of Europe, she retailed this special
missior. If he were asked why he had not objected to the esta.-
blishment of the Swiss mission in 1616.0 r 1317, he would,an-
swer by an obsarvation which he had:often made, andethe tniih
of which he believed was undeniable, namely, that that Heil a,

rot-withstanding all its collective wisdom, and all its united
talents, could never attend to more than one thing at a time.—
-As a proof of this, he begged to recal to their recollection the
exclusive intespst which the discussions relative to the late
Qneen had excited in that House. During the time that such
questions were under discussion, he would ask if the pre,sent
question would have obtained a hearing ? He would bear in
mind that during this time the question of Parliamentary
itself could not be brought forward, as there was not
even a chance of getting the House to listen to it. Immediately
previous to this they had the Manchester business. In 1815,
the time when the Civil List was discussed, they were engaged,
not in settling whether a pacific Ambassador should be sent to
this or the other Court, but whether that military monster which
had taken hold of the Continental nations should also take
hold of us—whether we should in the time of profound peace
keep up a standing army to the amount of 99,000 men ? In
1317 there was the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, and the
passing of the Indemnity Bills ; and in 1818 there was the im-
mediate prospect of a dissolution of Parliament, and the Mem-
bers .were more intent upon what was to go on out of doors
than what was going on within. It wouldthe borne in mind,
however, that for twenty months previous to the itme at which
the motion was intimated,there had been no Er.voy and Minis-
ter Plenipotentiary sent out. That the present Minister had
been sent, some might be disposed to call a political arrange-
ment, and others an accommodation granted to a party. He
hoped, however, that he would be indulged in what he had to
state. He had no objection whatever to the Gentleman who
held the commission, or to the mode in which he had been ap-
pointed. His sole objection was to theicommission itself. The
Noble Lord (Londonderry) had said that the views of his
Majesty's Ministers had been misunderstood, but he would
beg leave to-refer the Noble Lord to what took place'when the
Address oflast June was voted. The Address to the Throne was
for economy and retrenchment generally, and particularly for
revision of the Civil List. Now the House would never surely'
have alluded to that matter in an Address to the Sovereign, if
they had considered all the details of the Civil List as perma-
nently settled four or five years ago. He would not have called
the attention of the House to the question, unless it had been for
the necessity of some alteration in our system of expenditure.
An alteration must take place ; and if the House would go into
no inquiry, and propose no measure to that effect, he knew not
how they could appear before the tribunal of the country. If it
had been found that during twenty months they had had no
mission to the Swiss Cantons, it was in vain to appeal to the
precedent' of Count Capo d'lstria, or of any other Charge
d'Affaires. If we had suffered nothing by these twenty
months, he would ask the Noble Lord why Mr. Disbrowe
should not have been continued ? It might indeed be said,
that the Civil List Bill, regulating those missions, had passed.
llia Honourable Friend the Member for Huntingdon had en-
deavoured to procure a delay in the passing of that Bill, by
moving a delay in the bringing up of the Report. He (Mr.
IVarre) recollected that he did, support that motion fot delay,
and therefore there was no inconsistency in his present proposal.
The Noble Lord had, if he rightly understood him, said, that
the mission now was put upon the same footing as in 1792.
•It would be borne in mind, however, that Lord Robert Fitz-
gerald was appointed in 1792, and that being, if not the first
_year of the war, at least the year immediately previous to its
commencement, rendered the case quite different from •the
present. The Noble Marquis had indulged, good-humour-
edly he would allow, but still he had indulged, in accusa-
tions against the proposers of such motions as this; but he
hoped the Noble Marquis would bear in mind that he had
encouraged the 'bringing forward of such proposals. At the
-very threshold and opening. of those discussions with which
the House had been occupied, the Noble Lord had said, and
called upon the House to mark his words, that he admit-
tea the general necessity of retrenchment, that he recognised
the principle to its full extent, and only wanted tohave the par-
titular instances pointed out to him in order that he might agree
to them. Now he would take the Noble Marquis on his own
,ground. He would shew that Mr. Disbrowe had performed
otll the duties upon a salary of 1,5951. subject to a deduction
of 10 per cent., while the new establishment would cost 3,900 L,
subject, of course, to the same deduction. Comparing the one of
these sums with the other, the continuation of Mr. Disbrowe,
which had produced no inconvenience during twenty months,
would produce a saving of 20841. This was the sum for the
saving of which he contended ; and he felt that he stood upon
strong grounds. It exceeded the salary of either of the Lay
Lords of the Admiralty, or that of the Joint Postmaster-
'General. He had not alluded to this particular case because
of any unfitness on the part of the Gentleman who held
the office„..but it ought to be borne in mind that there were
others winch were in every oespect worse. He would have
held it unfair to select Mr. Ni ynn as the sole object against
-which measures ought to be directed. He was aware that
the measures,, against which his motion' was directed, might
be defbirled on the ground that they had been settled in the
year 1814 or 1815, when the troops-of the country had just
returned. victorious from Waterloo, and the Noble Marquis
Cad come frem his conference with the Potentates of Europe.—
At that time Parliament could not refuse the Noble Marquis
any thing which he might choose to ask, but he should doubt
whether the Noble Marquis would hope for such complaisance
from the Honk now—he would like to hear him propose now
the building of Dutch fortresses, or the granting of a loan to
Russia.—( Hear !)--He hoped 'that he had confined himself to
the general question' and that he had so conducted it as not to
hove unnecessary offsnce to those against whom it appeared in
the particular application to be directed. The Hon. Gentle-
men concluded by moving his Resolutions, which were in sub-
etanee as follows :
" That it appeared, that, from 1782 to 1793, the expence of
the 'Mission to 'Switzerland had been 2501. ' - that from 1792 to
1795, it had been 15751. ; that up to 1814, it had never been
more than 15751.; and that during part of that period it had
. been 3651. That without detriment to the country, the sum
might now he made the same as that paid to Lord Robert Fitz-
gerald-in 1793, namely, 15751."
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose.—Having had
occasion last night to address some observations to the House
upon this subject, and considering the very liberal and certainly
very fair manner in which the Hon. Member brought forward
the question, he should not think it necessary to trouble the
House at any length. The very liberal shape in which the
question was presented enabled him to approach it more di-
rectly than he could have done if an answer to the motion were
to lead him into a wandering discussion. The Hon. Member
must have either forgotten the principles he (Lord London-
derry) had mentioned last night as the ground of refusing the
- motion, or he had endeavoured to take him by surprise, when
he contended that this question had not been before a Commit-
- tee, before. He (Lord Londonderry) had laid down last night
a.principle, that foreign affairs could be conducted only by
placing confidence in the Executive Government, and that it
would be impossible to appoint missions, select individuals; or
fir. the scale of missions, without that confidence. En 1815 the
House had taken the estimate frinn the Crown. It was true
that objections had been made to the taking of the. estimate'
in that way, but those objections lied been as unavailing
then as he trusted this motion would be to-night. The House
then took the estimate on the ground of confidence in the
A arninistration of the day, and the responsibility on which
they acted. He trusted that if the House would nothave the
e:etimates generally submitted to a Committee last night, they
Would not take this particular branch of them for inquiry,
sinless there appeared to be something very incorrect. If this
art was correct as the rest, how could it be selected for inquiry ?
If the House consented to this proposal, hoiv many more would
they pUt at issue on the same principle. It was the more ne-
cessary to take their station here, because it appeared to be one
of a series of motions of the same kind. The Honourable Gen-
tleman had no objection to the individual who filled the office
in question ; he admitted his station in the country to have fit-
ted him for the office ; he adMitted, too, that his having had a
pension was an additional recommendation.' In these circurn.s
• stances, the selection of Switzerland Might appear surprising.—
This particular choice seemed to have been made from regard
ro the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. Tierney), who would ho longer
call his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Wynn) near him his (Mr. Tier-
ney's) Right Hon: Friend, though others continued that cour-
tesy. This' was the usual practice of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to withdraw his friendship whenever Gentlemen happened
- to join his Majesty's Government. In this way only could- he
account for the particular attention now given to the mission to
• Stein:erten:l. But it nppeared that no sooner was this to be
disposed of, than another Hon. Member would come forward
with a similar proposition 'respecting another mission. The
retiber for Sudbury had talked of cancelling missions; so,
that the foreign affairs of this country would be managed on
the floor of the House of Commons. lf, therefore, he object-
ed last night to going before a Committee, because, though he
had geeat confidencein every Committee of that Rollie, he did
not think a Committee fit for such a purpose, much more must
lie object to the present proposition.' Already Wurtemberg
and Bavaria were almost on the notice for addressing the
COMM that the missions to them should cease, unless cause
could be shown from diplomatic circumstances to prove that
• they were necessary. If, -then, this would not be constitu-
tional—and it was not the habit of America, that favourite ex-
ample, to ask such account of the executive ; for a very large
round sum had been voted that missions might be sent to South
-America, without requiring what character of missions, or
what scale of expense was to be adopted, for Buenos Ayres,
•for Colombia, Chili, or Peru—we were become less monarchi-
al than America. They were more confiding than we, and
abstained from inquiry where there was not immediate abso-
lute necessity at the moment. The present proposition went to
saiteblish the practice, that if it could be proved that an indivi-
,thial had ever received lesS money on any occasion, or if there
-had been a cessation in any respect in a mission, then the pre-
sumption must be against Ministers, and the onus must be
• thrown- on them of Justifying their conduct, not only ,i 0 the

face of Parliament, but in the face of the public at large. If he
were to submit to such a practice, the House must think him not
fit for his office. He would not so far degrade his office. An
argument more strained than the Hon. Mcmber's' through all his
details to establish his conclusion, he had never heard. It was
founded particularly on the case of Mr. Braun, who had been
there from 1782. Ile (Lord Londonderry), when he had ad-
verted to this case last night, had supposed that this appoint.
ment had been a sentence of degradation—a punishment for
diplomatic offences. He had certainly inquired since what had
been the cause, and when he stated it, it would perhaps decide
the question, whether there ought to be a wish to imitate all the
circumstances of this case. He was not sure that it would be
thought convenient, or more economical, that all dispatches
should he written in the French language. Mr. Braun had
been an old Swiss officer, attached, it was true, to this country.
Mr. Norton, whose secretary he had been, had left him behind
him there; but why no change had been made for nine years af-
tenvards,:he (Lord L.) knew not, and had not been able to as-
certain.—(Cheers.)-- e could not tell whether it might not be
to mark some displeasure felt towards the Swiss Cantons. It
was not known what feeling might then have existed towards
Switzerland. It was, however, known that it was a common
mode of showing a feeling of coldness to appoint a Minister of
inferior rank, or with inferior salary. Those things had often been
done ; but if the doctrine now contended for were established, it
could not happen in future without the consideration of all its cir-
cumstances on the floor of the House. He believed Mr. Braun had
been very honest; but he could not trace the influence of his mission
in that country. Fair influence could be exercised by such means,
but from the period of 1792, whenhostilities were breaking forth,
he saw nothing to lead him to believe that any valuable conse-
quences had resulted from Mr. Braun's having resided during
those years as our Minister in Switzerland. Ile did not think
it safe to adopt the plan of the Hob. Member, and to withdraw
our Minister at the conclusion of a negotiation, and then wait
till an extraordinary courier should announce that the neutra-
lity had been actually violated. He did not believe that our
Minister, when sent back, would find the country in the best
spirit to co-operate with him. He could not agree to the pro-
position, that we should not have a Minister, unless there
should be active employment for him where he resided. It
was his business to ascertain what counsels they were about to
adopt, and what other counsels might be suggested to them.
Upon considering the history detailed by the Hon. Member,
he contended that the whole stream of policy was in favour of
the present appointment. Mr. Braun had been there from
1783; but in opening his case, the Hon. Member had forgot-
ten the different circumstances in which Mr. Wickham and
LOid Robert Fitzgerald had occupied the same station. Lord
Fitzgerald had been there for four years, from 1792 to 1796,
when he was succeeded by Mr. Wickham, who, for a short
time, had been Charge d'Affaires, but was afterwards Mi-
nister Plenipotentiary till the peace of Amiens. But really
he was fatiguing the House to proceed in this argument, since
110 objection had been made to the individual. He could not
a'ee that any ground had been stated for the motion. He would,
however, just call the attention of the House to communica-
tions with Mr. S. Canning on his appointment as Minister Ple-
nipotentiary. The Noble Marquis lien read a letter to Mr.
Stratford Canning, desiring him to tell the Confederation that
a Minister would be sent to them from this country to supply
his place, and afterwards explained the circumstances which
led to a delay of some months before any such Minister was
appointed. He was not certain that he had not gone into
more explanation than was necessary upon a motion like the
present.--( Loud cheers from the Opposition.)--He knew the
meanin of those cheers. Some Gentlemen thought that if
You told anyany thing, you ought to tell every thing.—(Great
cheering, mingled with laughter, from the Opposition.)—He was
however, of a very different opinion, and thought that secrets
of State ought never to be divulged.—(Cheers.)—Though the
Hon. Member who had introduced this measure had introduced
it in a very fair and liberal manner, still he must say that there
epeared in other quarters a very uncharitable desire to run
down the character of a private individual. He trusted, how-
ever, that the House would oppose itself to that desire, and
would protect the characters of public men against darkhints
and unfounded insinuations. He should not trouble the House
with any further observations at present, as he apprehended,
from the vote of last night, that Gentlemen had made up their
minds to travel in the paths of their ancestors, which had con-
ducted the country to greatness, power, and honour, and not to
deviate from them into principles which were not admitted to
be sound even by such states as acknowledged a democratical
form of gnvernment.—(Cheers.)
Lord NORMANBY said, that he was not without hopes,
notwithstanding the threats of the Noble Marquis last night,
that he should live to see him not divested of his situation as
Foreign Secretary, but continuing to discharge the duties of
his office without sending out an Embassy to the Swiss Cantons
at 5,0001. a-year. He begged to assure the House that in his
support of the motion of his Honourable Friend, he was not
actuated by any hostility of an individual nature, but solely
by his feelings of opposition against the nature of the situation.
With regard to the Noble Marquis's opposition to the motion,
he confessed he was alarmed when he heard the Noble Marquis
begin upon his state secrets, least some of those mighty mys-
terms, of Which they had heard so much, might escape. But
not the closest Foreign Secretary on the Continent but would
acquit the Noble Marquis, however, not only of not having
let slip any of those state secrets, but of having said a woed
appertaining to the motion.—(Hear, hear !)—With respect to
Mr. Braun, he did not like to hear him condemned, for he
was part of economical arrangements made by Mr. Pitt at
the time of his entering office. That Gentleman was a most
patriotic example of faithful servants. He did not see how
hospitality requisite in Foreign Ministers bore on this subject;
for British travellers who went to Switzerland went there to
enjoy the rural romance of the country. The Noble Marquis
had really given no answer whatever to the statement of his
Hon. Friend, and he conceived the: merits of the case were
fairly before the House in full force as his Hon. Friend had
left them.

Cries of " Question," and " Withdraw," were then reite-
rated from all parts of the House : in the midst of them
Mr. WARRE rose to reply; but not a single observation
that he made reached the gallery.
The Marquis ofIONDONDERRY then rose to say that
he trusted the Resolutions would be put seriatim. On the
first seven Resolutions he should move the previous question ;
the last he should meet with a decided negative.
The first seven Resolutions were then read from the Chair ;
the previous question was moved on the seven first, and carried.
On the Bth Resolution the House divided— _

For the Motion - - . 141
Against it - - 247 •
Majority - - -106
RELIEF TO THE IRISH POOR.

On strangers' re-admission to the gallery, Mr. GOULBURN
was found addressing the House, with a view to his motion for
leave to bring in a Bill to provide employment for the Poor in
certain districts of Ireland. The chief object' of the measure
was to enable the population to earn their subsistence by their
own exertions, as the greatest and rhost substantial benefit that
could be conferred upon them. Another object related more
directly to the means by which this was to be accomplished.
It was well known to persons acquainted-with that country, that
there were many large tracts of land utterly impervious, where
there was little or no communication, and where crimes were
frequent from the means afforded of escape. By the present
measure, therefore, it was proposed to place a certain sum at
the disposal of the. Lord Lieutenant, to be by him applied to
the construction of new roads, in those districts where the suf-
fering was most severe. The work, it was intended, should be
executed, not under local authority; but by officers appointed
immediately by Government, which alone was to be respon-
sible. A want of means had hitherto prevented the counties'
in qUestion from undertaking this improvement; but as soon
as the advantages were realized, and the estimates of their ex-
pence submitted to the'Grand JurieS, .no doubt could be enter-
tained of, their disposition tb repay the sums advanced. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, after alluding to the necessity of dis-
patch in passing'a measure of this kind, moved for leave to
bring in the Bill.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY felt anxious that the benefits of
this measure should be rendered permanent.
Mr. S. RICE regarded it as a very judicious proceeding
as one equally well calculated to save the people from starving,
and from an utter dependance upon the bounty of others. On
the part of Ireland, the Hon. Gentleman expressed his deep
sense of the sympathy and generous spirit which had been ma-
nifested in England towards the sister country.
Sir E. O'BRIEN likewise approved of the measure in con-
templation, and declared himself a grateful admirer of the
liberality with which Englishmen had shown themselves dis-
posed to ralieve the distresses of Ireland., It was the best
proof that could be yielded of a true and indissoluble union.
Mr. BROUGHAM desired it to bc understood that, in lend-
ing his support to this particular measure, tie by no means corn:
mated himself to an approbation of the conduct adopted by his
Majesty's Government with regard to Irish affairs, or in re-
spect to the delay which had taken place in inquiring as to,
and ascertaining, the distress."
Mr. GOULBURN said he should' be , happy to meet any
motion on this subject, and was prepared to show that 'no im-
putation could be cast on the proceedings of Government.
Mr. BROUGHAM explained, that he did not himself give
notice of any motion on the subject.
After a few words from Mr. GRATTAST' the motion was
agreed to, and leave granted to .bring in the Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved for
leave to bring in a Bill, to extend to. Great Britain the powers
of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the Revenue of Ireland.
Colonel DAVIES expressed a hope that the Commissioners
would act gratuitously.
Mr. WALLACE, after a few words from Mr. HumE and
Mr. BANKES, said no additional expence would be brought

on the country by this measure. After he, inquiry should be
at an end, it would be open to Parliameit to consider what re-
muneration the Commissioners were entiled to. _

After few words i;;tif;:S. RICE, General HART, Mr.
BRIQHT, and Mr. GOULBURN, leavewas given to bring in,
the Bill. It was afterwards brought in,read a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time on Moiday next.
The other Orders of the Day were thn disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Eleven o'clock.

LIST OF THE 31INCRITY : 1
OF 147 auto VOTED FOIL MR. LESNARD'S MOTION,
For a Committee to inquire into the Exlenditure of the Third
Class of the Civil List, for Ambassaiors and Consuls, and
to consider whether any RedUction cculd be made in the;
expence, and the Amount brought, to le,Consolidated Fund,
as directed by the Act.for General Service.
Althorp, Visct. Fitzgerald,LordW. Newman, R.
Aubrey, Sir' John Foley, T. O'Callaghan, J.
Anson, Sir Geo. Fitzroy, Lord C. Osborne, Lord F.
Astell, Wm. Fetherstone, Sir 'I. Ord, W.
Abercrornby,Hn.J. Grosvenor, Hon. R. Price, Richard
Burdett, Sir F. Gurney, R. H. Pym, F.
•Boughton, Sir C. R. Guise, Sir W: ' Palmer, Col.
Boughey, SirJ. F. Grenfell, P. Palmer, C. F.
Broug,hiim, H. Grant, J. P. Pares, Thos.
Bright, Henry • Griffith; J. W. Peirse, H.
Barnard, Viscount Grattan, J. Power, Rd.
Birch, J. . Gaskell, Ben. Powlett, Hon. W.
Rennet, Hon.H.G. Hume, Joseph ' Ricardo, D.
Benett, John Howard, Hon. W. Roberts, A. W.
Barrett, S. B. M. Haldimand, W. ,Roberts, Colonel
Bury, Viscount Hill, Lord Arthur Rice., 1.. S.
Belgrave, Visc. Heathcote, Sir G. Robinson, Sir Geo.
Browne, Dom. Hornby, Ed. Rickford, Wm.
Bernal, Ralph Hutchinson, Hcn. Rumbold, C. E.
Becher, W. W. C. H. Ridley, Sir M. W.
Blake, Sir F. Honeywood,W.P. ' Smith, Hon. Rt.
Butterworth, J. • Hurst, It. Scarlett, J.
Byng, George Hughes, Colonel Stanley, Lord
Baring, Sir 'l'. Ilobhouse, J. C. Sefton, Earl of
Baring, H. James, W. Smith, Wm.
Crompton, S. Jervoise, G. P. Sykes, D.
Crespigny, Sir W. ~ Kennedy, T. F. Sebright, Sir J.
Calcraft, John Lethbridge, Sir T. Smith, Samuel
Calcraft, J. H. Lockhart, W. E. Stuart, Lord J.
Cockburn, R. Lamb, Hon. G. Scott, James
Coke, T. W. Leycester, Ralph Tierney, Rt. Hn.G.
Campbell, Hon. G. Lester, B. L. Titchfield, Nlarq, of
Campbell, W. Lemon, Sir W. Townshend, Ld. C.
Carter, J. Langston, J. H. Tavistock, ntarq. of
Cavendish, 1.1. G. Lloyd, Sir Ed. Tynte, C. K.
Cavendish, Ld. C. Lushington, Dr. Western, C. C.
Cavendish, Ld. H. Latouche, It. Wood, Alderman
Clifton, Viscount Monck, J. )3. Wilson, Sir It.
Carew, It. S. Macdonald, Jas. Webbe, Colonel
Concannori, Lucius Maberly, John Williams, J.
Calvert, C. Mackintosh, SirJ. Williams, Sir It. ,
Caulfield, Hon. H. Martin, John Whitmore, W. W.
Coffin, Sir 1. Marjoribanks, S. , Warre, J. A.
Davies, Col. Mostyn, Sir Thos. Whitbread, 'W. H.
Denison, W. J. 31arryatt, Jos. Whitbread, S. C.
Denman, Thos. ' Mahon, lion. S.
Dickinson, %V. Moore, Peter TELLERS.
Dundas, Charles Newport, Rt. Hon. Lennard, T. B.
Ebrington, Visct. Sir John Creevey, T. -
Ellice, Ed. Normanby, VISCt. PAIRED OFF.
Ellis, Hon. G. A. Neville, Hon. R. Russell, Lord J.
.Fergusson, SirR.C. Nugent, Lord - Phillips, G.