The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA Y, MARCH 8, 1836.

were only eight in number and with respect to the appoint-
ment of s'Aeritis in these places, he had already addressed
some observations to the House. The towns in which the

town clerks were to summon juries were only three in num-
ber. With reference to this subject, he admitted, with the
Noble Lord, that if injustice was done in consequence of
this nroposcd arrangement, it was quite immsterial however
small the number of towns was in which it was perpetrated,
but that a stop should be put Co it.--( Hear, hear.) He admit-
ted that it might be quite regular then to propose some alte-
rations in the provisions of the Bill ; but he contended that it
was not within the scope and extent of the rules which should
govern them in going into committee, to call for the appli-
cation of an entire new principle, or to-demand a new ma-
chinery in that stage of the proceedings.—( Hear, hear.)
The lion. and Learned Gentleman had complained that
more boroughs and towns were not included in the schedules.
He stated that 117 corporate cities and towns had been vi-
sited by the Commissioners, and the number of places men-
tioned is the schedules to the Bill did not exceed 54. The
lion. and Learned Gentleman, before he had passed tile cen-
sure which be did, should have read in the Report the rea-
sons which had governed the Commissioners and the framers
of the Bill in not introducing more places. They were told
that, out of the 117 corporate towns inquired into by the Com-
missioners, there were 22 places which had no Municipal Cor-
poration, and there were 24 other places in which the Com-
missioners were unable to discover any remains of corpora-
tions which existed in 1800, and eleven were in a state of
doubtful existence. The Bill of last year contained the list
of sixty-seven places, and it rested on the essential prin-
ciples of the English Bill. The Noble Lord did not seem
to be aware of the difference between the Bill of last year
and the present one ; indeed, from the language he had
used, it would appear that he had not diligently studied the
Irish Bill, nor had the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
consulted the provisions of the English Bill. They did not
propose in this Bill to incorporate any towns not now in pos-
ssssion of charters. Allusion on this ground had been made
to Antrim, but he would ask, was the Right Hon. Baronet
prepared to prove that Antrim was not in possession of a cor-
poration? If this could be shown, he should not object to the
exclusion of that city from the schedule. They had been told
that such towns as Middleton and Belturbet should not have
been included in the Bill, while others of more importance
were left out ; but be would ask whether it was the object of
the party opposite to incorporate any of these places ? He
would, however, observe on this point, that they had left
these two boroughs in the Bill, because they found them in
actual possession of corporate rights, and of corporate pro-
perty. If they had not found these towns in actual possession
of corporate property, he admitted that they would have been
fair 'cases for exclusion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite had complained of the exclusion of Newry and Dun-
garvon ; but he (Lord Morpeth) was sure that his Hon. and
Learned Friend would not have consented to their exclusion,
if there had not been good reason. He need not say that his
Right Hon. and Learned Friend, standing in the relation
which he did to the latter of these places, would have been ex-
tremely glad to have done any thing which he consistently
could, and which would be agreeable to the inhabitants of the
place. He repeated, that for some good reasons, they were
not included in the schedules of the Bill, and these were the
same why neither Manchester nor Birmingham were inserted
in the English Bill. With reference to the mode suggested
for the appropriation of the corporate funds, be would only ob-
serve that Hon. Gentlemen opposite attempted in the present
proposition to surpass his (the Ministerial) side of the House
in the science of appropriation.—(Loud cheers.) With res-
pect, however to incorporation; he would beg to observe that
there was a clause at the end of the Bill to enable the King to
grant charters of incorporation to towns. They had not proposed
to place the names of a number of large towns of Ireland in
the schedules, because they had not inserted the names of
towns in the schedules of the English Bill, which were not
then in the actual possession of charters. This plan had been
adopted after mature consideration, as the best that could be
acted upon. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
spoke last complained of the burdens that this Bill would in-
flict on Irish corporate towns, and that the property of these
places on the average did not exceed 1201. a year. He
(Lord Morpeth) thought that by prudent management it would
ibe found to amount to much more than that sum. With res-
pect also to the compulsory payments in the towns for corpo-
rate offices, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman shotild recol-
lect that from the nature of the offices the salaries would
be small in the lesser boroughs. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman also complained that the power of taxa.-
tion would be left in the possession of the 51. householders.
But did he forget that that class of persons at present had the
power of electing commissioners for levying compulsory rates
for paving, watching, and lighting towns ? If the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman supposed that it was likely that this
class of persons would conspire to lay a heavier rate on
their richer neighbouTs than they themselves paid, he ( Lord
Morpeth) would only say, in reply, that he did not think it
possible that the class of persons who composed the holders
of the 51. franchise would for one moment lend themselves
to such a project. Indeed, they could not refer to a single
instance of such an attempt, and they had superabundant
evidence on the other side. The' Hon. and Learned Mcm-
her made some allusions to the Corporation of Tuam,
which was composed of Catholics, with the exception of one
Member, and that this Corporation had mortgaged its property
to the trustees of a Catholic chapel in that town. He did not
wish to defend the Corporation of Tuam, on the contrary, he
objected to it as a close body. The Corporation accounts were
open to nobody, and there was no efficient control over the ex-
penditure. When, however, the Hon. and Learned" Gentleman
brought forward this case of the conduct of a Catholic Cor-
poration, be (Lord Morpeth) would, as a'set off, refer to the
conduct of the Corporation of Londonderry. The Commis-
sioners in their report state, " that a new set of bells was pur-
chased and set up by the Corporation for the Cathedral of
Derry in 1812, at a cost of 1,5911. 18s., and that the Corpo-
ration contributed, in 1823, towards the repair of Derry Cathe-
dral the sum of 1,6001."—( Ilear, hear.) This, then, was an
instance of appropriation for purposes which were not for the
benefit of all the inhabitants of the town, but for the advantage
of a particular class. This was a case in which there was the
same misappropriation of the funds as in Tuam, and equally
required a remedy ; for he contended, in these cases, what
was good for Peter was good for Paul.—( Hear, and laughter. )
All that he required was, that the inhabitants of a town should
have the administration of their own aff tirs, and that those who
contributed to the local taxation should have control over its
distribution ; by doing this he thought they would have an
efficient check against its misappropriation. He trusted that
the House would adhere to the plan originally proposed by his
Majesty's Government, and not suffer itself to be carried away
by the more revolutionary gale which blew from the other side
of the House—( Cheers)—or be influenced by the spirit of the
Noble Lord, which was so full of allusions to ravages and de-
luges.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for
Lancashire, said the other evening, that he thought it was to
little purpose to inquire into the object of forming the present
system of local government in Ireland, but he ( Lord Morpeth)
thought it would be still more useless to inquire into the ob-
ject in forming many of the regulations in the early Irish Cor-
porations. But from all the information that he could glean
respecting those early times—and he was aware that the sub-
ject was one of great obscurity—the power of choosing the
municipal officers who exercised control over local affairs was
vested in the inhabitants at large of those places. They had been
told by the Noble Lord that in Ireland, in making their ar-
rangements for local government, they should recollect how
much party animosity existed there, but lid was quite sure that
this measure, if carried into effect, would not make those feel-
ings go further ; on the contrary it would tend essentially to
mitigate them, by giving the people something else to discuss
than differences arising from religious grounds.—( Cheers.)
By pursuing this course interests were created which would be
constantly discussed, and which in consequence of their nature
would be more moderately treated.—( Hear, hear.) He was
satisfied of this, becsuse the subjects likely to be discussed had
a settled tendency to allay soreness, and instead of matters of
excitement, they would be sitting down to the every day
business of life, in which it would be very difficult for men to
exhibit their violent party feelings which now prevailed.—
( Cheers.) Ho thought that there were also other grounds
that made out a system of local Government, as was then pro.
posed, more necessary in Ireland than in England and Scot-
land. Dublin was not so disproportioned. in size and wealth to
London as the towns in the provinces of Irelaud were to those
in England. In Dublin there was something analogous to
London, bat in Ireland there were no such towns as Man-
chester, Leeds, Birmigham, or Glasgow, nor such a multitude
of market towns as in England, which were a source of riches
to the surrounding agricultural districts.—( Hear, hear.) He
admitted that there was much in Ireland which made it desir-
able
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this Bill. In the counties in Ireland, therefore, they proposed
that that the nomination and controul of the police force-
of being entrusted to irresponsible grand juries, should instead
be left
to those who would be accountable for their conduct. They
proposed that the controul of the unarmed police in towns
should be left not to irresponsible arid self-elected persons, but
to responsible authorities, chosen by those who were most in-
terested in their good conduct, andevho must suffer by any
mal-administration.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore he did not
propose to abandon the principle of centralization in Ireland,
when it could be carried into effect advantageously; but at
the same time, when he found that it was more bene-
ficial, he proposed that the inhabitants of towns should
have controul over their own concerns.—( Hear, and cheers.)
The chief reason for refusing to adopt the amendment was,
that it asserted as a principle the incapacity—(Cheers) __on
the part of the people of Ireland, to exercise the rights and
privileges and duties, now so advantageously performed by
their more favoured fellow subjects in England and Scotland.—
( Much cheering.) The Noble Lord (F. Egerton) refrained
from alleging any religious grounds as reasons for exclusion ;
but his Noble Friend the Member for North Lancashire (Lord
Stanley), on a former night, certainly did allege religious
grounds for a basis of . having a difference. While he ad-
mitted the conscientious feelings of his Noble Friend, he could
not help doubting the soundness of his views.—( Cheering. )
Perhaps, in less enlightened days they might resort to this
species of argument ; but it was hardly to be expected that in
the present day, in the nineteenth century, after the Catholic
Relief Bill—( Hear, hear.)—had been passed, and after the
Reform Bill had passed, that it could be seriously admitted that
the Protestant religion could be endangered by any species of
monopoly which could be enacted tinder this Bill.—( Hear.)
Such a reason to disqualify the large mass of the people of
Ireland from equal liberty, lie must wholly repudiate.—( Hear. )
He did not doubt, from what Gentlemen opposite said, that