The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-19 00:00:00

77-
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alston ought to be taken with the parish of Beerfierris, but
they did not think that they could make that change, for
Beerfierris was a county parish, and did not contain more
than one house let at a rent of 101. a year. Then such
places now were, in his opinion, more deserving of being
swept away from the list of represented boroughs. The
Right Hon Gentleman had, the other night, compared
that place with the borough of Caine, with which it cer-
tainly had no one point of resemblance. Caine was com-
posed of a borough and parish, but the parish comprised
the town. The borough was small but the parish was a
town parish. If they adopted a different rule it would be
most unjust. There were many cases of a similar kind,
such as Cirencester and Newport. It was easy to charge
partiality against those who produced this measure, taut
the fact was, that they took the returns as they came. It
was easy to say that Caine, Tavistock, and Knareshorough,
ought to have their elective franchise taken away. If
such a proceeding was just, nothing would he more satis-
factory than for him to do so if he could even get five
votes by suds proceeding. The point to which they ob-
jected was, the power to nominate. That power would he
taken away by this Bill, though the influence of property
would remain, and in that way, of course, the influence of
the Marquis of Lansdowne and the Dukes of Devonshire
and Bedford would still continue. The Marquis of Lans-
downe had very little influence from direct property in the
borough of Caine. Of the houses let at 101. a year in that
borough only three belonged to him.--(Hear, hear! and
a laugh.) If the right of returning Members should be
taken away from the borough and given to the county of
Wilts, the Noble Marquis would obtain more influence than
he now possessed. The principle of that Bill was, to take
away the power of nomination, not the influence of pro-
perty or that of character—(Hear)--and if they totally
disfranchised Caine, Lord Lansdowne would have that in-
fluence which was properly due to a man enjoy* nobility
alike by his origin and talents, his high title, his vast pos-
sessions, and his great ability— an ability for public affairs
united with a moderation of ambition rarely joined to such
powers, and an integrity, on which no spot had ever been
cast, even in the utmost heat and bitterness of political
contention.—(Cheers.)—They might disfranchise Caine,
but they could never deprive Lord Lansdowne of the in-
fluence which his talents and character gave him. That
was beyond their power. So long as he enjoyed his ex-
tensive possessions, his great ability, and his high charac-
ter, it would be impossible for legislation to reach him, or
for party malice to affect his interests—(Cheers)—and this
would, and must be so, just as long as aristocracy was
held in respect in this country.—(Hear, hear.)—With
respect to one point of some importance, he would now
make a few observations. It had been s aid that they
had not taken all the places in which there was a large
population. He confessed that though population in the
inferior boroughs had been deemed a qualification, it was not
that alone which had guided them in all cases. Thew had
also been governed with a view to particular interests. They
proposed as a counterbalance to the pure principle of popu-
lation, to give representatives to all large towns possessed
of manufacturing capital and skill. Bury, in Lancashire,
Oldham, and Rochdale, he therefore proposed should
each send one Member. Salford, which, with Pendleton
and Broughton, contained above 50,000 inhabitants, and
had commercial interests distinct from Manchester, should
send one. For that part of St iffordshire, known by the
name of the Potteries, and situated at Stoke-upon-Trent,
he proposed there should he one Member. For Wakefield,
which, in the original schedule, was omitted by mistake,
and for Whitby, there should he also one Member each.
Instead of the township of Halifax, which contained
much poor and wild land, he proposed that the right of
voting should be confined to the township of Halifax,
which should return one Member. All these he proposed
to be added to schedule D. Having thus added to the
number of Members for the manufacturing towns, it was
necessary to give some additional Members to the counties.
It bad been thought hard that some counties should have
four Members, and others, not much inferior in extent and
population, should only have two. To remedy this, he
proposed that those of them which possessed a population
of above 100,000 should have one additional Member.—
These counties were, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cam-
bridgeshire, Dorsetshire, Hertfordshire, Herefordshire, Ox-
fordshire, and Glamorganshire. There were eight of these
counties which were to send three Members to Parliament,
including Glarnorganslaire, which would be allowed two
instead of one. What he had now sai,i would correct
a mis ipprehension that had prevailed on the provision of
the Bill as they related to counties. He had now gone
through the intended alterations as they affected the
schedule, and the whole effect of them he had brought
into one view in a paper which he had intended to read,
but which he unluckily had mislaid. He could, however,
state from memory, that suppose five new Members given
to Ireland, and five to Scotland, the whole number of re-
presentatives for the United Kingdom would be 627,
making a diminution below the present number of 31
Members. There were 24. towns which were to send
two representatives, including parts of the metropolis ; 26
towns which were to send one a/ember ; and 26 Members
were for counties in England ; and one for a borough and
one for a county in Wales. In addition to these were
five new Members for Ireland and five for Scotland. The
number thus given was to be subtracted from the total
diminution, which, he thought, was 154 Members, and it
would leave the diminution of the present number of the
House 31 Members. This was certainly a less diminution
than was originally contemplated.—(Hear, her.) He
would now proceed to some other and minor alterations
in_the Bill. In the first place, with regard to the right of
voting for counties. Some complaints had been made—
and, he admitted, naturally—that while leaseholders of a
certain annual value and copyholders were allowed the
franchise, it was withheld from those who, perhaps, had
a much longer term, and greater interest, for 99, or 999
years. It was therefore intended that persons having
leases of the value of 10/. a year and upwards for any term
exceeding sixty years should be entitled to vote for counties.
There was another description of leaseholders whom it
was also designed as an act of fairness to include: he
meant those who had paid large fines upon leases where
the rent was small, but where the interest in truth was
greater than that of a tenant for twenty-one years at fifty
pounds a year. With regard to the qualification for
voting in towns, occupation had in general been taken as
a test of residence ; but it was wished to give the fran-
chise not only to the occupiers of houses, but to the occu-
piece of warehouses and counting-houses. But the ar-
rangement, as it before stood, construed strictly, would ex-
clude all the great merchants of Manchester, Liverpool,
and other great commercial towns, who did not reside
within the limits, although much of their property was
deposited in the town. He was satisfied that this amend-
ment, instead of hieing disapproved, would be cordially ac-
cepted.—(Hear, hear.)—Another change carried a little
farther the principle of keeping alive existing rights in the
persons of those who now held them. It had been very
strongly urged by persons connected with cities, where the
right of voting was in the freemen, that admitting the
principle of saving the rights of those who were now
alive, it ought to include the inchoate rights of the sons
of freemen, and of apprentices not yet out of their time.
This change would not make any difference in the prin-
ciple of the Bill, and it had, therefore, been agreed to ad-
mit to the right of voting the children and apprentices of
freemen, who would be entitled, on coming of age, or on
arriving at the expiration of their articles. With another
alteration he apprehended the Hon. and Learned Member
for Preston (Mr. J. Wood) would be well contented. It
would conserve expressly the rights of all who at
present voted by reason of inheritancy. This was
merely carrying more completely into effect the ori-
ginal intentions of the framers of the measure, and he
(Lord John Russell) had in fact stated it on the for-
mer occasion, but the Honourable and Learned Member
for Preston had stated his apprehensions that a large body
of his constituents would be disfranchised. As to the
returning officers, an alteration had likewise been adopted,
for it was found that in some instances it would not be
possible to insert in the Bill an exact description of the
proper individual. It bad been thought, therefore, that
the better mode would be to adopt a general clause, giving
the Sheriff of the county the power, on the Ist of March
of every year, to name the returning officer for places
within his jurisdiction. Some improvement had also been
made in registration; it was to be provided that the
Christian and surname, with the place of abode, should
be distinctly stited, so that the register should be a com-
plete index of the voters enrolled in it ; it was meant that
this register should be kept in a book to which reference
could be readily made, and as the churchwardens might
find it in some cases a burden to make it out, it was pro-
vided that they might employ such clerks as were neces-
sary to complete the lists, the expence of which to be paid
by the parish to which they related. Some difficulty, it
was thought, might arise out of extra-parochial places,
and they were therefore to he joined to the smallest parish
by which they were bounded. Another amendment ap-
ipoliecdititers) panoldl inbgor;ooingshtseaido
one
othseitpooaltliionog, aitlwwaa)s•shttihaounicrghtptlhacaet
if power were given to the returning '
the chance of much tumult and confusionifitmeirg
to 'be
directbav(4itilirea(tl
the voters shouldtendertheirt as alsosluvffrag
suffrages at different
according to his discretion.
I
provided.r thatpl places,
e
sons
to
s v 0 residingteutr
tahroi contributory
contributory
bo boroughsrooghi n
nNeVaarleesst shouldtoll ichv b
able
they dwelt. To these would be added a clause declaring that
any person guilty of false swearing at an election should be
liable to the penalties of perjury. [A further clause would be

a;mifar to that fbund:iti some of the Acts brought in by the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, providing for cases of
misnomer, that the words should be taken and construed
in their popular and intelligible sense. " I have now
(continued Lord John Russell) gone through all the prin-
cipal alterations we propose to make; the House will be
able to see them more distinctly, and to understand them
more completely to-morrow, as I have taken care that the
Bill should be accurately reprinted and speedily delivered.
By the time we have gone through the two schedules, Hon.
Members will be prepared to enter into the discussion of
the amended measure.—(Cheers and some laughter.) We
may then examine the Bill clause by clause, and those who
object to particular provisions, will have a full opportu-
nity of settling and stating thir objections. If it be
thought proper to raise again the question of the principle
of this plan, I shall be quite ready to enter into it—to de-
fend it, and to show that it is entitled to the most favour-
able consideration of the House. Whatever verbal changes
and local improvements may be made in the Committee as
to the mode in which this great arrangement is to be car-
lied into effect, I am prepared to argue that this House
will only properly represent the people, and consult the
interests of the people, by passing the Bill with as little
general alteration as possible.—(Cheers from the oppo-
sition side.) An Hon. and Gallant Member, whom I
see in his place, is about to propose some resolution,
by which he means to bind the House to keep up a
certain number of Members for particular parts of the
empire. I will not now enter into a question which can
be more properly debated when the motion is made ; but
I cannot help saying that the course seems to me :nest
invidious, and likely to promote that jealousy which we
ought to endeavour to allay.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It
is calculated to raise prejudices which I hoped were ex-
tinguished, by declaring on this occasion that there is one
part, or that there are two parts of the United Kingdom
which ought to have a particular number of Members, to
the exclusion of the rest.—(Hear.) As I have said, it is
not my part now to enter into the discussion, as I cannot
hope that my authority will prevail upon the Hon. and
Gallant Member to relinquish his motion. I may, how-
ever, take the liberty of reading to him a passage in one
of Mr. Pitt's speeches on the Union, which seems to me
to have been delivered in the true spirit of a Statesman,
anxious to make that Union real and effectual. It was
judged proper, looking at the population and taxes of Ire-
land, to allow her one hundred Members ; and upon the
question whether that number should be more or less, Mr.
Pitt spoke as fellows :—'' Upon a full consideration of
the subject, the Parliament of Ireland are of opinion that
the number of representatives for Ireland in the House of
Commons ought to be one hundred. Upon this subject,
the first question to which I have to call the attention of
gentlemen (supposing that they adhere to the resolutions
of last Session) is, whether the number so mentioned by
the Parliament of Ireland is so reasonable, and founded in
such fair proportions, that we ought to agree to it? For
my own part, Sir, I will fairly confess, that upon this part
of the subject it does appear to me extremely difficult to
find any precise ground upon which to form a correct cal-
culation, or to entertain a positive preference for any
one specific number of Members rather than another :
but I am the less anxious about it, because I do not
consider the consequences as very important. In my
view of representation, founded upon the experience
of our Constitution, I think we are entitled to say, that,
if a nation becomes united with us in interests and in
affection, it is a matter of hut small importance whether
the number of representatives from one part of the United
Empire be greater or less." That was the view taken of
the subject by a great practical Statesman, arid I leave it
to the consideration of Hon. Members, satisfied that they
will not hastily throw by such an authority. It has been
my business to explain the alterations it is proposed to
make in the Committee in this Bill for amending the re-
presentation. The House will perceive that the alteration
as to the number of Members is considerable : that num-
ber is increased more than thirty above the amount I
stated when first I introduced the proposition ; but, I
think, if lion. Gentlemen will consider the reasons for
this change—the fitness of taking certain places out of the
two first schedules--they will be satisfied of the justice of
that course, and that in no instance, and in no manner,
is it a departure from the original principle of the Bill.—
(Much cheering, and counter-cheering.) It was brought
forward, and was received under circumstances which can-
not but be gratifying to those who were concerned in its
original formation. It was the result of great considera-
tion, and this is the Bill—the very Bill brought forward
by the Cabinet, which was allowed by his Majesty to take
the whole subject under its view. It is the Bill which the
House, after a length of debate unexampled in this country,
sanctioned by its deliberate vote upon the second reading.
—(Cheers from all sides.) It is the Bill which those who,
the Right Hon. Gentleman contends, duly represent the
feelings and interests of the inhabitants of the empire, ap-
proved by a majority.—(Hear, hear.) It is the Bill ich
the House, notwithstanding the presence in it of 200
Members for boroughs, directly or indirectly affected by
it, adopted, although, I admit, by the very smallest ma-
jority.—(Continued cheering.) Be it remembered, also,
that this House was chosen under the auspices of a diffe-
rent Government—(Hear)—and that in it were marshalled
in hostile array all those whom it was thought necessary to
retain for the sake of keeping up the influence of the Crown,
and who recently occupied official situations. I say,
then, that the sanction of such a House is an extraordinary
testimony in favour of the justice and equity of the measure.
—(Cheers.) I am quite satisfied that this question ought
to receive, before long, its final decision. This House
would ill discharge its duty to its constituents, if it kept the
topic of Reform in debate for the period of another year.
Even were it to be continued for three or four months, I
should say that the consequent agitation would be highly
injurious. For that reason I desire to see the House, in
its present shape, and with its present Constitution,
sanction the principle of this Bill. I see two great autho-
rities in opposition to each other upon this vast question._
Earl Grev on the one side, and the Duke of Wellington on
the other—(Cheers, and cries of "No, no.") The Noble
Earl at the head of the Government is of opinion that it
measure of this kind ought to be conceded to the wishes of
the people. The Noble Duke, who, on so many accounts,
is entitled to the gratitude and reverence of his country,
thinks that there should be no alteration whatever in the
Constitution of Parliament. If that were a possible course,
it might possibly be a wise one; but I think that the Mem-
bers of this House have made up their minds that even if
the coerce were wise, it is no longer possible. I ask Hon.
Gentlemen, then, to consider whether, from particular
views, and for private reasons, they will endeavour to alter
and fritter this great substantial measure? We who pro-
posed it are bound by its principles, and by its principles
we will abide—(Much cheering front all parts of the
House)—yes, I repeat it, by its principles we will abide._.
(Cheers.) Whatever may be the course which the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government and the Cabinet
may think it their duty to take—whatever opinions
they may deliver in Parliament, and whatever advice
they may give their Sovereign, be assured of this, they
are united firmly for the purpose of carrying this
(Cheers from all sides.) Having been brought forward in
Parliament, it was announced to the people ; by Parlia-
ment it was sanctioned, and by the people it was univer-
sally approved. If you were to alter, to break in upon,
or to fritter it away, you would only be preparing a vexa-
tious and useless contest, at a time when you might have
to deal with the people in their present temper and spirit
of moderation ; then, too, you might be called upon to
discuss Reform in a state of much less comparative pro-
sperity than the nation now enjoys.----(Hear, hear.) I am
ready to allow that those who bring forward and press
forward this Bill, have some claim to the reputation of
boldness.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) But I
for one confess that I am not so bold, butt that I should
look with great apprehension to the consequences of a con-
tinued resistance by those who have property in boroughs,
with the chance that, in the course of that resistance, new
distresses or new feelings of agitation may manifest them-
selves among the people. If the Bill be now passed, it
will be passed in perfect tranquillity—without interrupting
the union and harmony of all classes ; but if you will not
listen to this advice, which I very humbly offer—if you
do not think it worthy of being followed—l beg you to
remember that those who shall undertake the conduct of a
majority of the House of Commons against this measure
will have difficulties to encounter with which no Minister
in the country has yet been able successfully to contend.
If there ever was a Prime Minister, powerful fro,n his
authority--from the services he had rendered his country
—it was the Duke of Wellington—
" Exuvias vetcres populi, sacrataque gestans
Duna ducum."
He was on every account entitled to power—from the
victories he had won both in peace and in war, for—
" Peace has her victories as welt as war ;"
but he found it impossible to resist the majority of this
House : armed with almost unlimited power, granted by
one Sovereign and confirmed by another, it was broken
and shivered by the storm to which he would not bend.
glfenaemr,Li,an like the Duke of Wellington, with strength of
character to sustain, and talents to unite all parties, could
not oppose the pronounced decision of this House, and the
indisputable, and enthusiastic voice of the people,
who shall hope to resist it ?—(Much cheering.)—The
Noble Lord moved the Order of the Day for the Commit-
tee on the Bill for the Reform of Parliament.
General GASCOYNE rose and spoke amid great con-
fusion, but we understood hint to deny distinctly that, the
Bill opened by the Noble Lord to-night was the one, or

anything like it, *hick time Hottse laudread a second tine.
before the recess hear.)—lf greater concession,
were required from the present Cabinet, no doubt they
would he granted, notwithstanding their vapouring decla-
rations that they would s'and or fill by the original mea-
sure. Nothing that had fallen from the Noble Lord could
induce him to relinquish or alter his motion, and whetbei
the Bill were or were not to be re,-printed, he should.
therefore, persevere. [The lion. and Gallant Member
here became inaudible from the confusion in different part,
of the Howe.] Ile wished that Hon. Members who were
not inclined to listen would go at once to dinner. He saw
no reason for reducing the numbers of the House, and he
seriously recommended the Noble Lord and his friends to
withdraw the present Bill, and, if they thoeght proper, to
tiring forward another better considered and more matured.
He-sinly required the House, as regarded its numbers, not
to spoliate England for the sake of giving additional weight
to Scotland and Ireland, and contended that population
had never been the basis of calculation at the Union, when
in 1800 it had been decided to give 100 Members to Ire
land. Of late years the population of Ireland had been
grossly exaggerated for political purposes; but Mr. Pitt
had stated it at 1,400,000, while the population of Eng-
land was then admitted to be 10,700,000. Hence it was
clear that population had been no ingredient in fixing the
number of Irish Members ; and as to taxes, while Ireland
only paid 4,600,000/., England contributed 27,700,000/.
to the exigencies of the State. At this moment Ireland
did not pay more than one- tenth part of the taxes of the
empire, yet sbe had more than one-sixth of the represen-
tation. The Hon. Member then proceeded to argue upon
the inconvenience resulting from the present large propor-
tion of Irish Members, and contended that it was an odd
remedy for this evil to propose to increase them. He also
insisted that positive injustice would be done to England,
by giving five new Members to Ireland and Scotland, and
appealed on this point to the lion. Member for Wateebral
(Mr. O'Connell). Suppose the matter were reversed, and
it was suggested that England should have more Members,
and Ireland fewer, what an argument would it afford to
the Hon. Member for the repeal of the Union. In the
discussion of all questions relating to the imposition of new
burdens, the representatives of that part of the United
Kingdom called Ireland combined, one and all, to obtain
for that country an exemption from a fair share of those
burdens to which England was subjected. By such com-
bination they had thrown the whole weight of the Pro-
perty Tax upon this country, and a great part of the
Assessed Taxes also. The Irish Members and the Scotch
united to resist the abolition of the paper currency in Ire-
land and Scotland. When that question was under dis-
cussion in the House, a meeting took place, attended by
eighty-three of the Irish and Scotch Members, who fre-
quently voted with the Ministry of that time ; and the
unanimous resolution of that meeting was, that they would
to a man withdraw their support from the Government if
the continuance of the paper currency were not permitted
in Ireland and Scotland.—(Hear.) He had no hostility to
the interests of Ireland, but as he had always seen the re-
presentatives of that country combining with those of Scot-
land for the purpose of relieving those countries at the
expence of England and Wales, he could not consent to a
measure which would so much increase the strength of
combination in future, as the proposition of the Noble Lord
opposite would do. He would not so much object to the
disfranchisement of some of the boroughs, if the same
number of representatives were given to other places, so as
not to diminish the number of the whole House. He
would therefore conclude by moving an amendment to the
following effect :—" That it is the opinion of this House
that the total number of knights, citizens, and burgesses,
returned to Parliament for that part of the United King-
dom called England and Wales, ought not to be diminished."
Mr. SADLER considered the proposition respecting
the diminution of the number of English representatives
in the United Parliament monstrous and unjustifiable in
every point of view ; and he thought that the Gallant
General who had just addressed the House, had shown
goad reasons wherefore it should not be endured. He had
understood the Noble Lord opposite to say, that it was a
matter of no moment, whatever might be the precise pro-
portion of the Members in that House representing the
several parts of the United Kingdom, and had referred to
the authority of Mr. Pitt in support of that assertion.
But in adopting the argument of Mr. Pitt on that ques-
tion, the Noble Lord compromised the principle of his
own Bill, which was professed to be direct representation,
whereas Mr. Pitt's words were in defence of virtual repre-
sentation, which the Noble Lord repudiated.—(Hear,
hear.) It was a dangerous anti fearful enterprise to di-
minish the preponderance of the English representation :
it was desirable to preserve the integrity of the United
Kingdom.—(,Heitr.) The question of the separation of
Ireland from this country bad been so much agitated, that
he thought it might yet be necessary to decide it either
calmly in that House, or by the sword. As to the prin-
ciple or the details of the Bill itself', Tie must say,• that ft
was a matter of some difficulty to deal with measures so
fluctuating.—(Hear.) It seemed as if the Bill was to be
altered, from one stage to another, in order to render it
palateable to all sorts of tastes in succession—(llear.)--
and to leave of the measure, as at first proposed to Parlia-
ment, little but the name ; like the Budget of the present
Government, which had been almost annihilated in the
process of alteration, and of which nothing now remained
but the smoke and the steam. Looking to the former de-
clarations of the Noble and Learned Lord now presiding
in the other House of Parliament, and also to those of the
Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, one
must lie persuaded that Ministers had changed their opi-
nions and intentions very much since they commenced
the present plan of Reform.—(Hear, hear.) The astute
and Learned Lord, who, at the time to which he was re-
ferring, held a seat in that House, then denied that he was
a friend to radical Reform, " because," sail he, " the Re-
form which is so called, would lead to revolution." Not-
withstanding that declaration, the Noble and Learned
Lord had sanctioned the introduction of that revolutionary
Bill. The same Noble Lord bad also said that the mea-
sure which lie should propose would conciliate all classes
of Reformers. But had that Reform Bill effected such a
conciliation ? The Noble Earl at the head of time Ad-
ministration likewise had said that he would never con-
sent to any Reform inconsistent with the principles and
practice of the Constitution. But here was a Bill utterly
at variance with both. It was by slow and irregular
movements that the Constitution had attained its present
consistency and strength, which it would for ever lose, if
any of its elements were removed. The principle of virtual
representation, rejected by the Bill, had been recognised
by the Constitution from the earliest period, and was con-
statitly kept in view by our Saxon ancestors. The prin-
wi hiborough,
a rto subject of our constitutional history, the
e t
was
ciple of the Noble Lord's Bill, taking population as the basis
of representation, was certainly not recognised in the time
of Henry the Third. The county of York, which at that
time as greatly exceeded the other counties in population
and extent, as it -now exceeded them, had then only two
right
was, from
o of
ff
each u
their
therepresentatives. According to Hume, who was no mean
authority
for the representatives of the boroughs
first institution, vested in the governing
boad
the Mayor and the select Alder-
men. Toa
supported also by the high
authority of the Noble Lord at present sitting on the
woolsack.--(Hear.)
That Noble Lord, who now says
that
Parliament is about to return to the original path
of f
rt . th the
ii a n
Constitution, gave some time ago, in a certain peri-
odical,rthe same account of the representatives of the bo-
roughs that which he (Mr. S.) had just quoted from
A
e--namely, that the right of voting was origin-
confined, in the boroughs, to the governing part of
te
u
ally
the burgesses. lie referred to the antiquarian Grose, to
show that no:Mil mtion boroughs and virtual representa-
tion had always been recognised. It was the intention of
wasit
t,,0
tn supportedr
more
alri
Legislatureey
consistentt h c a t authority rloivtuiylt
should
of
br
ee
athesonNaont
composedeg Lord()ao
fd
that Constitution that the House of Commons should re-
presentd
at
large masses of property—an opinion in which he
site, the Member for Tavistock. And he would ask, was
govern-
mentppersonso
country
chosen by a rich constituency, than that its divisions should
he governed by numerical strength ? When the Aristo-
cracy of a neighbouringwere deprived of their
political influence, they were very soon afterwards de-
prived of their property. The influence of large masses
of wealth over that House was necessary, if it were de-
sired to preserve the prosperity of the country.—(Hear.)
If the present system were close and corrupt, and there-
fore, requiring Reform, by what was it to be decided what
parts of that system should remain, if not by the test of
have
et
them, experience ? But to what parts of the system did expe-
rience refer the most glorious events in the constitutional
history of England ? Was it not well known, that if the
close and rotten boroughs, as they were now called, had
teaorf,
sheet::
e.
not existed at time time of the revolution, that great mea-
mariailaisidhedth.:A(
)
Would the restoration have been effected, but for time same
sbuarreauwgohual: neßvaert
Latent have been passed ? The county Members were more
than two to one against that measure, which was brought
about entirely by the close and rotten boroughs.—(Hear.)
It was then by those boroughs that the House of Bruns-
wick Was given to England, and the rights and liberties of
Englishmen were preserved. Sixty-five Members for the
boroughs supported the Bill, and only forty-three voted in
favour of tyranny.—(Hear.) At periods when the whole
body of the people were unanimously opposed to time cause
of liberty, and were vehement in favour of passive obedi-
ence, of the divine right of Kings, and of religious intolo-

ranee, the representatives of those cl.,se and rotten boroughs
never dim:Traced tbetnselves by yielding to the popular
feeling in favour of orpresiort. At the time of the revo-
lution, the House of Commons tYas besitlled with petitions
that the Crown shotild be restored to its original right,
and that the principle of religious toleratism should not he
recognised: The cause of civil and religious liberty found
but thitte,n supporter: among the county Members.—
'Hear. ) Throughout the whole of the constitutional his-
tory of England the aristocracy of taloit found its way
into that House by the influence of the aristocracy of
vealth, as the long lizt: of illustrious names which adorned
the annals of that House fully demonstrated.—(Hear.) If
the excision of the boroughs from the, :epresentation now
oroposed by the Noble Lord had taken place stt an earlier
period, the House of Brunswick would never have rctned
here. Bat it 7,5-as said that the present constituency was
too limited ; that House. represented but a small mino•
city of the peeople ; but sul'el-y ?t could not be said that
the new system would hot he liable t;; :17:at objection. The
Noble Lord supposed; that by confining the ft:snehise to
persons rated at and above 101. a year he would exclude
dl corruption from the constituency ; but to hint (Mr.
'ztfller) that seemed to imply a groundless charge against
the people of Great Britain. Ile denied that all purity
was confined to the classes favoured by the Noble Lord's
proposition, and that all below those classes were unworthy
of political privileges. The Noble Lord was adverse to the
principle of virtual representation, and hoW did he propose
'o do away with it? There were scores of millions of
British subjects whom the Bill left still unrepresented, and
they had certainly as mt..ch right as any of their fellosti-
subjects to direct representaiZon. Did the Noble Lord
supoce that the subjects of Great Brltain, in her foreign
possessions, were not as much entitled to representation as
those within her shores ? But his Bill left them totally
unrepresented in that House, directly or indirectly. If the
scheme of uniformity which was contemplated by the Bill
should ever be carried into effect, the House would represent
only one class. But it could easily Ire proved, that in every
age of our constitutional history the representation had
been virtual. He might not be prepared to deny that
there were anomalies in our system. Those anomalies could
as well be seen at the time of the revolution as at present,
and they were seen at that period ; hot by what persons ?
By those only who had private interests to advance by the
exposure of those anomalies—by men who, like Boling-
broke, had their views of political ambition to promote by
alterations of the Constitution ; but the fallacy of that
Nobleman's assertions was exposed by Mr. Addison. The
opinions of Addison respecting the boroughs was confirmed
by that of one of the most earnest friends of civil and re-
ligious liberty that hail ever done honour to English litera-
ture. He alluded to John Locke, who, putting the ques-
tion in the strongest and most unfavourable light for the
boroughs, said that " It was thought by many that the
representation of the people became, in course of time,
disproportioned to the population, ,when a town, having
no inhabitants but a single shepherd, should send a Mem-
ber to Parliament, at the same time that a large and flou•
rishing town in its neighbourhood was unrepresented. He
confessed that this was an evil for which some remedy %I'd.;
required, if it were possible to find it. But it was consi-
dered that, as the constitution of the Parliament was the
original and fundamental act of the society at its first for-
mation, no inferior authority could make any alteration.
He (Mr. Locke) thought, therefore, that the people had
' no legitimate power to alter the constituency, and that the
inconvenience was incapable of remedy.—(Much laugh-
ter.) Such was the opinion of Mr. Locke—(Renewed
laughter)—which excited the risibility of certain gentle-
men—(Laughter)—who wished not only to disfranchise
the boroughs, which Mr. Locke considered inconvenient
and incapable of remedy, but those which, instead of be-
ing decayed, as they were described, had been long in a
state of progressive improvement. But still the supporters
of the Bill were resolved to cut away from the Constitu-
tion, with unsparing hands, the representation of those
towns, and to interfere without compunction with vested
rights.—(Much laughing.) But it was one of the cha-
racteristics of fools that they

rush where angels fer to tread."—(Repeated laughter.)
He could not see occasion for the improvements which the
Bill proposed to make. The Constitution had in itself a
principle of regeneration. An authority which had been
more than once referred to in that debate, says, indeed,
that " Time is the greatest innovator." But the gentle-
men who repeatedly quoted that line, always omitted what
followed.---( Hear! and a laugh.) They never quoted the
next sentence, in which that philosopher recommends
that they who would effect useful changes must imitate the
manner in which time innovates, that is, slowly and gra-
dually—(hear.) If they who professed to act upon the
advice of Bacon, in bringing forward the present plan of
Reform, incurred themselves all the danger with which
the Bid was pregnant, he (Mr. Sadkr) might he willing
to allow them to make the experiment. But when he
knew that the fate of millions depended on it, he could
not withhold his most earnest opposition. When be looked
to history, and saw that no attempts at violent changes,
professing to have improvement for their object, had ever
succeeded, but had invariably led to the destruction of that
liberty which they were intended to extend, he could not
but be apprehensive, that by measures to which that Bill
would open the way, if successful, this country might be
added to the catalogue of nations whose rash efforts to
obtain improvement by revolution, led only to anarchy
and desolation. He denied that the measure of ministe-
rial Reform proceeded on the principle which had govern-
ed, and ought to govern, alterations made in British in-
stitutions. It proceeded upon a principle rather of recon-
struction than of repair and improvement. Did they
propose under that Bill to amend the Constitution in the
manner in which that building had been restored, which
gave its name to the edifice in which they were then
assembled—a building which had been reared by illus-
trious hands, and consecrated by the blood of heroes.
What course did they pursue with respect to those parts
of that building which had suffered under the hand
of time? Did "they destroy its carved work with axes
and with hammers?" Were they not, on the other hand
primarily governed by the original idea of the architect?
Was it restored stone by stone in the genuine spirit of the
first design ? and so ought they to deal with the Consti-
tution.—(Cheers.)—So had the leaders of the great revo-
lution in 1688 grappled with, the difficulties they had to
contend against, and they might truly be said to have
altered in the spirit of the original. In fact he knew no
writer of any authority who ever maintained an opposite
opinion. But how did the Noble Lord, the Member for
Tavistock. treat the-great body' of the reformers ? He
spoke or them as more consistent in proposing to dispense
with the Monarchy than in repairing the rotten parts of
the Constitution, after the manner they proposed at the
time he referred to, and yet the Bill fell into the same
error, and was obnoxious to all the reproach which the
Noble Lord cast upon the labours of other reformers—that
which he would then have defended from them was now
to be attacked with sacrilegious hands, and that Consti-
tution destroyed which had been handed down from gene-
ration to generation. The House had heard, in every
imaginable form, the objections stated to the ex-
isting system, and the inconveniences pointed out, dwelt
upon, and exaggerated, with which it was said to be
fraught ; but he would maintain that the new system
would be found full of the same inconveniences, and des-
titute of many of the excellencies of that which it was in-
tenet] to supersede. Hon. Members might say what they
thought proper with respect to the readiness with which
the persons proposed to be disfranchised would agree to part
with their rights; they might dwell to any extent they
thought proper upon the supposed unanimity upon the
subject of their own disfranchisement of those per-
sons who were to be disfranchised. No doubt letters
mightaee
(tan: to)
fe epna r
ties c writtenon
chere
da;n d b
ut ltice(rme intimating
ldi
tbe beii e
vthe
that people generally would be parties to the annihilation
of their own privileges? It was not in human nature that
such feelings should be general. Though he was perfectly
willing to attribute to most men high political virtue; but
he confessed he should be slow to attribute to any class of
men that extreme devotedness of virtue as was implied in
the assertion, that the persons in question were willing to
part with their privileges for the good of the couutry.
One of the most remarkable, and to him one of the most
alarming features in the present aspect of public affairs was,
the course adopted by those who were out of doors called
Reformers. The Reformers, as they 'were called, well
knew the certain operation of the present Bill—they' well
knew that if it were once agreed to, they might make it
a stepping stone for the attainment of their ultimate oh-
jects, and eventutlly render it the means of accomplishing
all that they sought. To him the unanimity that pre-
vailed was awful--it was the calm that portended the
storm.—( Hear, hear.) He set out withwying that he
would shortly examine the principal features of the Bill in
its altered state; and he must be permitted. in the first
instance, to begin with observing that the present Bill was
equally objectionable with the former one; and though
some of the grounds on which he should object to it were
of that general nature which did not strike so forcibly as
those applying to individual cases, yet when fairly and im-
partially considered, they ought not on that account to he
at all looked upon as the less strong. Amongst the chief
objections to that piebald measure was really its piebald
character, which professed to make it rest upon the
bases of property and population. Let the House, and
let the independent and enlightened part. of the nation
judge how they had acted upon those pnncip!c:s7 bow_
they had proceeded, unfettered xi they were by auLieu pr

j•idiceg Ot the slighted regard t Vested rights. Supposing
he were to tags; d view of the probable conduct of legittlia-
t"rs, unshackled by anything but equitable principles, how-
would men so circumstsueled propose to not ? They
could not fail to regard society VT divided into two of its
el uses—the inhabitants of towns and the country popula-
tion. In mentioning those two classes, he begged it, how-
, ver, to be distinctly understood, that nothing could be
further from his mind than to place them adversely with
respect to each other, or that anything should be said or
done calculated to disunite them. For very obvious rea-
sons, the town population must always be considered in a
m:r.e advanced state than that of the country, being less
scattered, possessing more ready opportunity of communi-
cation with each other, of un'.on, and of continued action.
lie was not one of those who could readily subscribe to
the doctrine that the worst _lass for constituency were to
be foond in the large town? and cities ; but laying aside
that argument for the present, he would ask how the pre-
sent Bill paid that respect to property upon which it
professed to proceed Y Perhaps the House would permit
him very briefly to compare the property of the town and
rountry. From the returns for the purposes of the Pre-
pei ty Tan made in 1810, it appeared that the rental of
houses and warehouses in towns amounted to 13,135,4401.
whereas the rental of land amounted to 32,588,3031. No
doubt it might be observed, in reference to the sum al-
dived to the latter, that it included the rent of many valu-
able houses and warehouses, which might he deducted •
from that class and added to the former. In 15.1.1 the
towns and cities had a population of 2,920,095, while the
country parts possessed a population of 8,341,342. Now,
to tura op in a few words the way in which the Bill would
operate, he ehonld say that they had a population of
30,000,000, that they had a rental of 30,000,0001.
that the former Bill gave 141 Members to the
to ens, and the altered • Bill gave 149. [Here a dig•
TurbariCe in the strangers' gallery rendered several
of the detalla which followed these remarks wholly
inaudible.] The lion, Member next proceeded
to argue upon the prnhabilities of the neighbour-
ing Aristocracy. He hesitated Pet to tell them, when
they attempted to establish their la eozastituency, they
would secure nothing for the advantage of the neighbour-
ing Aristocracy, for it would be in vain that they did en-
deavour to conceal from themselves the fact, that a turn
of 70/. or 80/. would purchase a vote; that being tlaa
fact, then, he would ask, what became of the virtual re-'
presentation which gave the highest rank an influence in
that House? When they gave the 10/. franchise to the
towns, what did they do for the county parts? Did they
give a vote to a tenant holding from year to year, even
though he paid five times ten pounds per annum ; nay,
even though he paid one hundred times ten pounds?—
That inequality, then, was perfectly obvious ; and, if they
went through the Bill, they would find it abounding with
similar inequalities ; they would find it iniquitous from
beginning to end—unequal in every part of the system
Might he he permitted to call the attention of the House
to the distinctions drawn between electors in one part of
the country ? For example—why should a farmer of
Norfolk be worse treated than an elector of Devizes ?
Hon. Members opposite would find it rather hard work
to reconcile that with their new principles. He regretted
that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (the At-
toriiey-General) wart not then in his place, that he
might defend those transfers of the franchise that formed
so much an object of his admiration—that he might be
enabled to contrast the Constitution of Cromwell with that
then proposed by his Majesty's Government. Oliver Crom-
well gave to the counties 237 voices in the repreeeotative
presentbody of
ilthel nation.ga,,e
to t
hfel e
towns gave the towns n
a l4l,
d
to then
t
143. Precisely inverting the amount
j from that compa-
rison, the House would he enabled to judge how far our
co whileu the
modern legislators adopted the principle of Cromwell—
namely, that of giving representation to property. If he
proceeded to examine more minutely the less important de-
tails of the present measure, they would find that the pro-
posed distinctions and divisions would lead to the parcel-
ling out of counties into arrondissements. It seemed to
have been laid down as a general rule, that for every 60,000
persons there should be one representative ; but let him
look as he might, he could not regard it otherwise than
as a heap of contradictions. There was only one principle
intelligible throughout, anti he could not refrain from call-
ing that a principle of gross partiality ; for he could not
impute to any one who undertook the business of consti-
tution-making anything like such gross ignorance as must
be presumed to exist, were the framers of the Bill to be
acquitted of partiality. For example, there was the county
of Durham, with not more than one-sixth of the popula-
tion of York, yet Durham was to have five additional
Members, and Yorkshire only one; but that was said to
have been done for the purpose of rectifying discrepancies
—to rectify those discrepancies Durham was to have four
Members, and the West Riding of Yorkshire only two. In.
Durham there was one. Member to 34,000 ; in the West
Riding of Yorkshire one to 303,000. Perhaps a certain
Noble Individual not then in the House could explain to
them, how it happened that such special care should be taken
of the county ? Then possibly the Right Hon. Baronet, the
First Lord of the Admiralty, could explain to them how it
occurred that two additional Members were to be given
to the county of Northumberland, and why the North
Riding of Yorkshire, the population of which exceeded it
by thirty thousand, should have only two Members ?
Why, also, should they have only two additional Members
for Lancashire, with a population six times as great ?
Lancaster, with twenty times the wealth of the county to
which he referred. Yet with such inequalities and such
injustice, the Government said they would have the Bill,
the whole Bill, and nothing hut the Bill. Northumber-
land was to have one Member to a population of twenty-
six thousand, while Buckingham had but one to sixty-one
thousand ; no doubt that was all the result of a chapter of
accidents, in which certain talismanic numbers were to
determine the rights and privileges of British subjects.
Let the House contrast that with the principle adopted by
Cromwell in his assessment of 120,0001. He fixed three
representatives in counties as'essed in 1,000/. ; fourteen
to those upon whom 4,000/. was levied ; and twenty-one
who yielded 5,000/. The scheme, therefore, of Crom-
well, was popular in principle, and founded upon a regard
to property. It bad been said that the privileges of
electors were a trust more than a privilege ; but he was
yet to learn how rights held in trust were less sacred than
any other rights, at least until they were forfeited by
some improper Act. They were told that the franchise
was a trust ; the Noble Member for Tavistock had said
" that the Crown was a trust, anti that they ought to have
as good a reason for disfranchising Old Sarum as for expel-
ling King James." He had held these opinions respecting
the advantages of the Constitution when he was a humble
individual, and before he entertained the slightest hope of
being able to give his vote for its preservation in that
House. He had been as warm a defender of the ancient
Constitution of this country at that time as he was now ;
and when he looked at the provisions of the plan by which
his Majesty's Ministers proposed to correct the defects of
that Constitution, and when he turned to a consideration
of that Constitution itself, he was justified in his objec-
tions to the one, and more than justified in all his affec-
tion and veneration for the other.—(Hear.)—He repeated
his determination, therefore, as far as his humble efforts
went, to maintain that Constitution pure anti untouched,
for by it he was resolved to stand or fall.—(Hear, hear.)
It might be said this was mere declamation, but the tree
was best known by its fruits. Let those who doubted the
advantages we derived from the Constitution look to the
condition of the country. Let them look to the difference
between England and her neighbours. Let them contrast
their conditions, and when they saw the very foundations
of society broken up in the one, and peace and prosperity
visible in the remotest corner of the other, they must ac-
knowledge that the Constitution of England was the ark
which saved her in the general destruction.—(hear.)---
The Judge Advocate had observed, in his late account of
the earlier history of England, that as the powers of the
King and the House of Lords could never become formi-
dable but through the dissensions of the two Houses of
Parliament, that were the Lords to attempt to oppose
themselves to those who were the representatives of
the voice of the people, they would be but as dust in
the balance. What, then, would be the consequence
of the measure now before the House ? The next step in
Reform would sweep away this dust from the balance—
overthrow all th it the wisdom of ages had erected and con-
secrated—and they would at length, and at no distant pe.-
riod, inscribe on the tablets of an ancient Monarchy,
" Mene, thy kingdom is departed from thee."—(Cheers.)
They talked of vested rights. If it was determinel to de-
stroy one kind of vested rights, what others would be safe ?
If they inquired into the pedigree of the boroughs, they
!oust inquire into the pedigree of the other rights of the
State. If they touched one bit, they must inquire into all.
The rights of the boroughs once questioned, then would
come the inquiry into the rights of Corporations. Then
the inquiry into the rights of the Church, and so they must
go on to those other modifications, which were pot only
hinted at, but plainly explained by those who were now
the advocates of the measure of Reform. When those who
13111 ;
when they could lay aside the
• ir
mutual
the Bill, the House
join in clamours for the pa
then-
rice
-13mgof the hopes which were
have
fsoßleornogi.na, timel
(t advocatedtinite i
,etch
thet
eirn,
rours:tipeozlttr.trai of
ei3t
could form some conception
fliunfi
expectations which it satictione:l,
(
he had occasionally wandered from tli
question immediately before the House, he hid thought that
_,feead r.o) a if ir and of the

o tit e latitude might be allowed to him as well as to the
other speakers who addressed them; and feeling that he had
already trespassed too much on their time, he would con-
clude by imploring them to do their duty fearlessly and Con-
scientiously, a+ they would have to answer to God and their
country.—(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP said he was quite sure, and so must
all be who heard him, that the object of the motion brought
forward by the Gallant General, was not to effect that
which it proposed, brit to destroy the Bill. He had lis-
tened to the speech of the Hon. Seconder of that motion
smith great attention, and he must say he did not think that
speech was very relevant to the question before the House.
This motion was not, however, so much to he considered
as an objection to the particular plan of Reform, as it must
be held to be the first of a series of motion+ which is in-
tended to anticipate the discussions in the C'cratnittee, or
to so cripple the Bill by alterations before it reaches that
stage, thtt if not wholly fatal to it< principle, if it should
happen to be carried, they will, if successful, prove nearly
the same.—(Hear, hrar.) The Hon. Member for Newark
(Mr. Sadler), said he (Lord Althorp) was not serious in
his opposition to the motion. He could assure that lion.
Member he never was more serious in his life.—(Hear.)
The Hon, Member said they were not to spoliate England,
in order to confer benefits on Ireland and Scotland. fie

(Lord Althorp) thought the Hon. Member might as safely
contend that they were not to do anything in Lancashire
at the expence of the county of Cornwall.--(ffear.) He
could not understand the distinction which the Hon.

Afernber wished to draw betwern different parts of the
saint empire. The Hon. Member made invidious
distinctions between the two countries, and then
appealed to the prejudices and passions of tug•
lisbinen to support the views he took of their

relative rrsitions. • lie (Lord Althorp) ennld not under-
stand the gauge of the Hon. Mentkr in his measurement
of the degrees of representation. England was still to
have five to one, even according to the standard pt-oposed

. .
by the Government.—(Hear.)—The Govertment had all
along stated that, finding there were certain places which
it was desirable to disfrancLiset they had determined to do
so, and to give the right of returning Members to others
which were, according to the principle of reformation,
better entitled to that distinction. In the first place, they
hail given Members to all large towns, and the Houle

would find, when they came into Committee, that their
original proposition had been so much amended that it
was scarcely potsible to find any place of :Inportance
which would not now possess a repres.e.tative. If, how-

ever, they intended to persevere ,nn this plan, it was ne-
cessary they should also persevere in their determination

to dintrand:lin the horcraghs mentioned in the sehedultp,

With respect to Ireland, they had also given additional
7.i/embers to all the large towns, which they considereil to

be entitled to that distinction.—(Hear.)—The Hon.
Gentleman had accumed the Government of making

changes, and he had added a strange complaint against

thtm, that they have removed the objections which some
person% made to the 13111.—(1-Iesr.)—Wag it in oiTence
that they should endeavour to profit by tht suggestions
they received ? lie had, however, ~tai that little of the

original Bill remained. Out of the 60 places in schedule
A, 55 remained; and nut of the 47 in schedule B, there
still remained 11. How, then, could it he said that

little of the original Bill remained ? lie repeated that the
principle of the Bill was precisely the same) and that no
alteration had been introduced except throe which were
fully justified by experienee and inquiry. In the present
state of this country, it was plain that no system of repre-
sentation could stand, unless it was defensible on principle,

. .
(Hear, hear.)—lt IVEV4 in vain to talk of prescription, and
of vested rights. If they wished to maintain tile institu-
tions of the country, and to preserve the attachment of
the, people, it was ncees.ary for them to prove to them that
they were really, and notvirtually reprelented, Glee: a. )

The Hon. ',Vern her said that he advocated a ),ystetp of

compromise. Now, he must take leave to nay that his
opinions were well known, and he had never made it a
Aine qua non that they should be adopted. Under the
present system of representation he certainly did think that
voting by ballot would be an improvement ; but he had
never contended, at any time, that no Reform would be
good without a system of voting by ballot. The great
merit of the plan now before the House was, that it
proved satisfactory to the people, and would he efficient
without the ballot. The Hon. Member had talked of the
destruction of the indirect influence of property. It was
she exercise of One direct influence of property that had so
long been complained of—(blear, bear)—and which he
wished to put an end to. The indirect influence of pro.
perty he should be as sorry to lose as any Member of that
House. That was the best exercise of property—the
direct exercise of it was the very reverse. The necessity
of cultivating the kindly feelings of their neighbours, of
promoting the interests of their tenants, and of practis-
ing those virtues which were most likely to secure them
the respect and confidence of those who were to pos-
sess the power of choosing their representatives, was,
be considered, tho certain consequence of the passing of
the Bill ; and he therefore thought that, as far as the in-
direct influence of property was concerned, it would be
productive of the highest advantages. The Hon. Mem-
ber, in a most elaberate speech, distinguished by all that
research for which he had so high a reputation, had en-
deavoured to prove that in other periods of our history, if
the popular voice bad been predominant, many blessings
end advantages we at present possessed would not have
been secured to us.—(Hear, hear.) He was not these at
that moment, nor could it be expected from him to decry
the merits of the Aristocracy. lie was ready to admit
that the Aristocracy of this country hod been at all times,
and he hoped always would be, the greatest supporters of
the liberties of the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was
quite ready to say, that in the past times of the Constitu-
tion they had proved themselves to be so. But it should
he recollected, that in those periods the people were igno-
rant—commerce was at a low ebb—wealth by no means
widely disseminated—and measures and systems, which
might be found well suited to such a state of society, were
not to be tolerated in times like the present, when know-
ledge had made so much progress, and when every man,
down even to the lowest, was qualified in some degree to
prom-mice an opinion en the merits of the men who offered
himself to be chosen as their representative. He was sur-
prised to hear the lion. Member for Newark quoting Mr.
Locke on this occasion. Mr. Locke declared that the ex-
istence of boroughs was a great evil. That evil it was
the object of the Bill to cure. A great part of the Hon.
Member's speech, as well as of the speeches of other Hon.
Members, consisted of quoting the former speeches of
others. He confessed that be never much admired this
arguntenturn ad horninern. It might he satisfactory to
others, but it was not so to him. It did not follow that
because a man held certain opinions a great many years
ago, and now held other opinions, that his present
opinions must be wrong. The Hon. Member for Newark
complained of what he called the gross iniquity of the Bill,
because it gave so many Members to towns. This was a
most extraordinary charge, when the Bill increases the
number of county Members, while it decreased the general
representation. The Hon. Gentleman also apprehended
revolution from the Bill ; on what grounds he (Lord Al-
thorp) was entirely at a loss to comprehend. If the class
of persons who were to return Members by the Bill were
hostile to our existing institutions, there would be a
revolution without the Bill.—(flear.)—lf the middle
classes of any country were discontented, the Legislature of
that country might make what laws they pleased—that
discontent would remain. The object of the Bill was
to make the people contented. If they were die-
contented at present, it would give thew reason for
being otherwise. So far, therefore, from its leading to
any danger of revolution, it appeared to him that it would
have the directly contrary effect. As to what the Hon.
Gentleman haul been pleased to say of Northamptonshire,
and of what he imagined to be his (Lord Althorp's) in-
flaenee in that county, he could assure him that the Bill
would diminish rather than increase his influence. But
really when Hon. Gentlemen expressed suspicions of so
unworthy a nature, they appeared to him to he exceed-
ingly discreditable to those from whom they proceeded.
The measure, whatever might be thought of it in other
r,Tll;ent*, must be allowed on all hands to be one of the
highest importance. Its proposers thought it both im-
pertant and beneficial. Upon its success they founded all
their claims to the gratitude of the country and the recol-
lections of posterity. As t
they spurned *o any private or personal feel-
ing,
hrarrindignation. lie trusted that
what the Hon. Member;but
if
0:Ilion that point was said in
the heat of debate
conceive any act without
nsuoethe on.. Gentleman could not
anymotthiveas Le had described,
he (Lord Altlaorp) did
thee l n . Gentleman's
mind.—(llear.) With respect envy
IT General's
!notion, he begged all who were friends to Bill not to
think it of small importance whether it was or was not
rejected. If it were carried it would seriously damage
Bill, and would be the first step of a course which m the
might
he attended with the moat fatal consequences to the whole
measure. He appealed, therefore, to all those who were
anxious for its success to vote against the Gallant General's
proposition.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord STORMONT contended that the whole Bill was
one tissue of errors ;it to all intents and purposes a
new Bill it
had grown from thirteen pages to twenty
;
five, and yet ids friends said it was exactly the same mea-
sure.—(Hear, hear, hear.)--Among other alterations,
it
now gave a prospect of the elective franchise to servitude
Yet
still change in the very principle of the measure.
still they asserted that it was the some Bill. This re-

minded him of a story sofa by that compiler of the fare-
lions history of Mr. Thomas Miller. A gentleman rods•
up to a turnpike, and asked the gate-keeper if he bad Pe'
a squat, jolly, red-faced fellow ride through? "No (said

•
the gate-keeper), I have seen nobody ride through htit a
tall, lank, pale-visaged chap." " (replied the other),
that's my friend." 8.1 it Was with the Bill ; the thin

Bill of thirteen pages had been changed into the fat one
of twenty Ave; but still its friends protested that it wa.
the same Bill. Many of the supporters of the measure
supported it because they sought DopUiarity. This was

An unworthy motive of action. Alen should act on their

own feeling and co'.'.viction, and not with reference to the
opinion of others. The Noble Lord said that the Gallant
General's motion was intended solely for the purpose of
throwing out the measure. He knew it was not brought
forward with such an intention ; although it ttrtainly was
not friendly to the Bill. For his part, he did not see that the
number of Members of Ole House was inconvenient. lie

had witnessed the passing of Bill after Bill, and the adop-
tion of measure after measure, with so few Members pre-
cent, that no one could maintain that the itouse was too

numerous. The proposed"C;liange in the proportion of the
representatives of the three kingdoms might he attended
with many disastrous consequences. Ireland was at pre-
mcni; in a dreadful state of anarchy and confusion. An
!Lin. and Learned Member hal intimated his intention of

endeavouring to obtain a dissolution of the Union ; and
when the seats of that Holt:3e Were filled with a description

of persons diflervftt from their present occupmts, anti
who !s-onld probably join him in his efforts, the results
might be most detrimental. He asked the House, there-

fore, if they ought not seriously to consider what might be
the result of diminishing the number of English Members ?
General DUFF mint give his humble support to the
Gallant General's motion.—(Hear, hear.) He was by no
mesas ith enemy to Reform ; but the Reform which he
Wished for was a wholesome and salutary Reform, such as
would he consonant to the feelings of the whole country.
Mr. FERGUSSON said that this question was of vital

importance to his country. It was to be determined
that night whether any addition was to be made to the
representation of Scotland ? If there was one representa•
tive of Scotland in that house who thought the large towns

of Scotland should be represented, that individual would
fail in his duty if he did not vote againat the Gallant
General's motion.--(Hear.) The representation of Scot-
land and Ireland could be increased only either by trans-

ferring the elective franchise from some of those by whom
it was at present enjoyed, or by increasing the number of
the Members of that House—not by ten, but at least by

sixty. If thcy adopted the latter, they must give to Eng-
land a proportion of four times more than to Ireland and
Scotland. Instead of 65S Members, the House must be

made to consist of 720. Now there was not a Member
of that Howe who would consent to that. There mere

no means, therefore, by which the representation of
Scotland could be improved unless the Gallant Gene-
ral's motion were negatived. The Gallant General
seemed to object to the addition of any Irish Mem-
bers, not so much on the score of religious con-
siderations, as on the ground of the obstruction to public
business, which the frequent addresses of the Irish Mem-
bers occasioned. Now it appeared to him that there was
not one of the Hon. 'Members for Ireland who addressed
the House so frequently as the Gallant General did. But
if the Irish Members spoke much, the Scotch did not
speak at all. But if the Gallant General thought that the
Presbyterians of Scotland would join the Catholics of
Ireland, he was mistaken. On the contrary, he might
consider the former as a set off against the latter ; and
look to them as our allies against any attack of the Ca-
tholics, come when it may. It was said that the Church
was in danger. Was it ever in danger from Scotch Mem-
bers? When the Test and Corporation Act was re-
pealed, the Scotch Members divided thirteen to seven against
the repeal. It ought to be recollected that at the time of
the Union with Scotland, when forty-five Members were
allowed to that country, the revenue of Scotland was
only 120,0001. It was now 4,000,000/. The pre-
sent population of Scotland, as compared with the popu-
lation of England, was as one to four ; the revenue as
one to eight. And yet the effect of adopting the Gallant
General's motion would be, that not a single additional
Member would be given to Scotland. On that ground he
should oppose theGallantGenerars motion, if on nothing else.
The friends of Scotland must reject the motion. No
Scotch Member who voted for the motion would dare to

go hack to his constituents and hope to find favour with
them. If he thought that what he asked for Scotland, or
the Irish Members for Ireland, were contrary to the prin-
ciples of sound representation, he would not advocate it ;
I but what was asked would only do away with the rotten
part of the representation. They were told that Glasgow,
having 148,000 inhabitants, was to have two Members,
the number which Gatton at present had. In the Bill his
Maj• sty's Ministers had dealt severely with Scotland.
Forty-seven boroughs ware to have one Member each ; yet
the whole population of those forty-seven boroughs did not
amount to within 10,000 of the population of Glasgow
alone. He would not detain the House on the general
question. There was one view which he took of it
which he had not yet seen touched upon. For fifty
years the popular complaint had ben of the influence
of the Crown in that House. That influence was now
dead and gone. The last finishing to it was given by the
Duke of Wellington ; not with the view of reducing the
influence of the Crown, but with the view to retrench-
ment. By that retrenchment the influence of the Crown
in that House had been annihilated. There existed, how-
ever, an influence much more b i.e and degrading—the in-
fluence of the owners of boroughs ; an influence base and
degrading, and frequently turned against the Crown. He
had seen Administrations formed—not on the ground of
the confidence which the country or the Crown had in its
members, but from the reply to the question whether the
members of it could gain the assistance of this Duke, or
that Marquis, who had representatives in the House of
Commons. Even the possession of the Treasury boroughs
was now of no use ; for, on the change of Ministry, their
possessors immediately went into opposition. Among
the other objections which had been urged to the Bill,
it was stated that it would present lawyers from getting,
into the House. He should like to see the popular assem-
bly into which lawyers would not get.—(A laugh.) There
never had been any Parliament in which there were not
many lawyers, except that of Henry IV., in which the
Sheriffs were instructed not to return any lawyers; a circum-
stance of which Lord Coke spoke with great indig-
nation—calliog that Parliament, Parliamention indoctuns.
He believed that the proposed Reform wonld effect the
greatest possible change in the representation. He be-
lieved, and he hoped and wished, that that change would
be greatly beneficial.—(Hear.) It had been said to those
who talked of restoring the Constitution—show us what
the Constitution was which you wish to restore. That
Constitution declared that Parliament should be composed
of the Earls, Barons, Burgesses, and Freemen of the realm.
A Commission, composed of the most learned men in the
reign of James 1., declared that the ancient Constitution,
established by the law of the land, was, that the elective
franchise was vested in every man paying scot and lot. The
present measure did not go so far as that declaration, hut it
was an approximation to it. He hoped that no attempt
would go beyond it; for it was sufficiently sweeping. It
was a vital measure as considered with reference to the re-
presentation of the country to which lie had the honour to
belong ; and as such he should cordially support it.
Lord LOUGHBOROUGH said that if I.e thought it
possible that the motion of the Gallant General could be
in any way injurious, he should pause before lie gave it his
support. But being of opinion that the House, as at pre-
sent constituted, was not too numerous to attend to the
various questions and important interests upon which it
had to determine, he should certainly vete for the Gallant
General's motion. With respect to the Noble Lord's Bill,
it appeared to him to alter, not only the constituency of that
House, but the Constitution of the country. If population
were to be the criterion of representation, why make such a
distinction between England and Scotland ? Why adopt
one principle on one side of the Tweed, and another prin-
ciple on the other side? Why give twelve Scotch coun-
ties, with a population of 1,521,000, only one Member
each, and give 12 English counties, with a population of
1,175,000, three Members each? It was in vain after that
fact, to talk of the principle of the Bill. In truth, there
was no principle in it but the principle of revolution.—
(Hear.) He was aware of the meaning of that ironical
cheer ; and that the word revolutionary was considered an
ol.jectionable one. The Member for Preston and other
Members voted for the Bill because it would lead to annual
Parliaments, vote by ballot, and universal suffrage. He,
therefore, would resist the measure. He would not only
do his duty as an individual, but his duty to his country as
a Member of Parliament. He meant to vote for the re-
commendation of the Hon. Member for Liverpool, and he
would do so because a change would be a violation of the
Union. It would infringe the eighteenth article of the
Union. It would increase the representation of one part
of the empire without increasing those of the other. He
.0n otippo,,isrietosxaol.lf ttlilceihmnaxpnßigrteeas.k,
iunngl s they were made on the
h different of the present proportion of the representatives of the
of " Adjournmen'Ati," and of 6
Mem-
bers rose to speak. At length'
ooliairs,:se”at there was a cry
of several Ypossession of the House, and
Colonel WOOD obtained
went on to say, that as he voted for the second reading, he
was anxious to explain the reason of the vote he meant
to give. He felt it hie duty to vote for the motion o

the gallant General, but in doing that he (lid not give that
vote for the purpose of destroying the Bill. The time was
arrived when some Reform was necessary, and that Bill,
with certain arrendmenta, might effect that Reform ; bin
if it were to pass into a law, it must be with many amend-
ments. The instruction moved by the gallant General re-
lated, in his opinion, to a point which was open to discus-
sion ; and if it was not, it was no use for them to go
into the Committee.—(Hear, no, no.) As he understood
the gallant General's proposition, it said nothing of the
proportion of Members for the different parts of the
empire. The gallant General said indeed, and so he
(Colonel Wood) thought, that the relative proportion of
Members for the different parts of the empire was a point
of great importance, and it had been solemnly settled at
the Union of Scotland and the Union of Ireland, and
ought not to be disturbed. He wished to say nothing un-
pleasant to his Irish friends ; but when it was said thtt
I they were not sufficient to protect Irish interests, he was
hound to say that, at least, he beard as great a number of
eloquent appeals from 'Members from that part of the em-
pire as from any other. The Bill, as it was at first drawn,
went to extinguish seventy of the Members for England;
and now it would extinguish forty-one.—(Some voice
called out, " forty.") As that was the case, when he
found Irish and Scotch Members standing up for their
6,untries, he thought it his duty, as an English Member,
to stand up for the proper proportion of representatives for
England. He should, at a future opportunity, explain what
amendments he thought necessary in the Bill.—(Hear.)
On the HON. MEataxa resuming his seat there was a
mingled call to adjourn and to go on. After the calls had
continued some time,
Mr. HUNT rose to move the adjournment of the de-
bate, as there were yet severil Members who desired to
speak.—(Loud calls to " go on.")
Lord ALTHORP said that as it was evident that the
debate must be adjourned, be did not see any use in con-
tinuing it any longer.
The debate was then adjourned to this day.
LONDON COAL TRADE BILL.

Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS moved the second read-
ing of this Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman observed
that there was no objection whatever to the principle of
the measure. He had communicated with several coal
merchants of London on the subject, and none of them
had any objections to make to the principle of the Bill ;
the objections to its details might be discussed in the
Committee. He hoped, therefore, that nobody would ob-
ject to the second reading.
Bill read a second time ; to he committed on Friday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Half past One o'clock.

NOTICE to the EAST INDIA COMPANY.

Mr. C. Grant, just as the House was about to rise on
Saturday morning, brought forward his promised motion
respecting the notice to be given to the East India Com-
pany (pursuant to the 53d Geo. 111. c. 155), preliminary
to the termination of their charter. . .

The following arc the resolutions moved by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and adopted by the House:—
" 1. That notice he given (to the East India Company)
that the sum of 1,207,5591. 155., and all arrears of annuity
payable in respect thereof, being the remainder of the
capital stock debt, or sum due from the public to the
United Company of Merchants of England trading to the
East Indies, will be redeemed and paid off on the 22d of
April, 18:34, agreeably to the power of redemption con-
tained in the last-mentioned Act.
" 2. That Mr. Speaker do, on the 223 day of April,
1831, signify, by writing, to the United Company of
Merchants of England trading to the East Indies, the said
resolution of the House."

EXPRESS FROM PARIS.

(From the Times)

We have just received by express the French Papers
dated Sunday, and also letters from our correspondent.
We have room only for the following :---
(PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE.)
CAMS, SUNDAY, THREE O'CLOCK.
In my letter of yesterday I described to you the dis-
turbances of the last few days in this capital, and the scan-
dalous supineness of the police. A Counsel of Ministers,
was however, held yesterday, and the proper orders were
subsequently used fir suppressing these tumults.
After the market here yesterday, crowds began to re-as-
semble, principally on the quay near the Hotel de Ville,
and to send forth detachments across the bridge to the
neighbourhood of the Pantheon, and on the other side to
the faubourg St. Antoine. These vagabonds were shout-
ing, as I am informed, " Vive la _Republique r and se-
ditious nonsense of all kinds. When I met them it was
between he arid six o'clock in the evening, and they were
then thronging the quays at each side of the river and the
small streets which led into them at the Conciergerie side,
and the Place do Chatelet. I saw amongst them very few
well-dressed young men, like those who were visible in the
crowds of last September and December. They were
chiefly young fellows with woollen caps, resembling the
idle hands who throng all large cities. Several had sticks,
aprons full of stones, and I saw one or two scraps of silk
or cotton upon poles, intended, no doubt, to represent tri-
coloured flags—they were noisy and impudent, doubtless
reckoning upon having another day's exploit with impunity.
At fire o'clock the Prefect of Police had placarded
the city with proclamations, requesting all good citizens
to remain within doors, as the authorities had deter-
mined to proceed in right earnest against all rioters. I
was returning from the Post-office when I saw the police
employed in posting these proclamations, and shortly after
I heard the drum beating the rappel, and met the Na-
tional Guards hurrying in files towards the Tuileries. T
proceeded in that direction, and saw the cavalry assem-
bling in great force within the Court of the Tuileries.
There was a great hustle about the office in the Place du
Carousal, where Count Lobau, as Commandant of the
National Guard of Paris, holds his head-quarters. Com-
missaries of Police were binding their scarfs around their
waists, end dragoons were helping them upon horses.
Great bodies of National Guards and regiments of the line
were pouring in from all stuarters. Staff-officers were
flying about u busily as if on the eve of a general ac-
tion; and old Count Loban himself, decorated in his
grand cross of the Legion of Honour, was giving orders
upon the steps, but looking as surly as an old General of
Napoleon's ought to look, at beim.; obliged to buckle on
his sword, and leave his dinner, to disperse a street-crowd
of unarmed vagabonds.
The military were then appointed to respective stations,
and a strong force of cavalry and infantry at once moved
along the quays : they first encountered the crowd, which
had descended from the quarter of the Pantheon, and was
moving towards the Place du Chatelet. Here the police
commissaries read the summonses required by law, and
entreated the crowd to disperse. Many took the hint, and
went off ; ethers, however, remained, vehemently insist-
ing upon their right to remain in the public way ; awl
some who were in the rear contrived to pelt a troop of
National Guards with stones.
At length the charge was sounded ; the horses trotted
through the mass of people ; I saw no sabres used, although
the people declared lustily that there had been savage
thrusts. About a dozen fellows remained bellowing upon
the pavement, but I do not think any of them were se-
riously hurt; for as far as the confusion enabled me to
judge, they were easily helped up by the peop'e of the
neighbourhood, and taken into pissagcs and hall-doors,
for the shops were every where shut.
The mob appeared every where to take the hint, that
bearding the authorities was at length no Joke ; for on the
quays, the bridges, the little streets in the quarter of the
fauxhourgs, where tumults have been so frequent, they
took to their heels most manfully wherever the military
appeared, and at eight o'clock I saw no crowds in any
direction, except those composed by the troops and the

police.
Whist I write I am informed that groups are again col-
lecting near the Hotel de Ville and the Fauxbourg St.
Antoine : the military are again collecting ; and, of course,
this mob, like the preceding one, will be dispersed with-
out difficulty. About sixty or seventy fellows were yes-
terday arrested in these crowds; they were, I am told,
with two exception•, idle vagabonds, who loiter about
without any settled occupation.
The shopkeepers every where expressed great indigna
tion at these tumults, and mostly yesterday evening refused
even shelter to the fellows who were rode over in the mele.
Great pains are taking to provide work for the unem-
ployed at this moment ; but the depressed state of trade in
the capital, arising in no small degree from the incessant
repetition of these tumults, affords few facilities for labour-
ing industry.
The Berlin State Gazette, due by this morning's post,
has not arrived. There is a rumour, which, however, 1
cannot trace to any authentic source, that Marshal Die-
hitsch has succeed in crossing the Vistula.
The King this day received some corps in the court of
the fuileries ; he was every wnere received with accla-
mations.
You will see a curious controversy in the journals be-
tween the Birmingham and French gun-makers about the
late contracts for arms for France. The Birmingham people
have a deputation here, who take up the subject as warlike
as so martial a topic requires. Y.