The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-27 00:00:00

4

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Making of treaties with foreign natioeis relative to the
navigation-laws, and he thought it was highly desirable
that those words should not be departed from.
Mr. HENLEY was perfectly aware of that; but now
they were going very much to extend this principle of
law which sanctioned the paying of dock dues out of the
Consolidated Fund, and he thought some care ought to
be taken to see how it would act upon private interests.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he entertained some doubts
as to whether the clause, as it stood, was sufficient to
enable her Majesty to direct payments to be made out of
the Consolidated Fund.
After a few words from the SOLICITOR- GENERAL and
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
Mr. EA BOUC HERE said he would agree to the
Clause being withdrawn for the present.
The clause was accordingly withdrawn.
Clauses down to 28 were then agreed to without any
discussion.
After some discussion, the remaining clauses, as also
the preamble, were agreed to, Mr. Sanders having with-
drawn his amendment, the Speaker resumed the chair,
and Mr. Bernal reported the Bill to the House.
The report was ordered to be brought up on Monday
„next.
?OOR.LAW (IRELAND) RATE IN AID BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed that this Bill be
read a second time.
Mr. HAMILTON said, that in his resolve to stop the
second reading of the Bill, he felt perfectly assured that
he was incurring great responsibility, for he knew that
it would be imputed to him, as to those with whom he
acted, that he was uninfluenced by the miserable and
starving condition of the pauperised population of the
south and west of Ireland, because he was connected
with a more independent portion of that country.
Such he should distinctly aver were not his
feelings, but because he was fully persuaded that
the relief necessary for the sustentation of the
Poor of those districts could and ought to be afforded
on better and more constitutional grounds than those
Unjust principle-, which must necessarily extend and in.
crease pauperism. The Hon. Member objected to the
sill, because he considered it to be not only inadequate
to the end it purported to have in view, but because it
Was absolutely unjust towards a large and important
class of her Majesty's subjects in Ireland. It was esti-
mated that the rate would produce the sum of 250,000/
That he doubted very much; but, supposing that that
Sum might be received, then at least 180,000/. would be
required to meet the emergencies of nine unions, and all
that could be collected beyond that must be applied to
the wants of the twelve unions. He believed that
there were very few instances of the principle
of the rate in aid having been applied in England.
though certainly the state of the law and of past
legislation admitted of it. That circumstance, however,
did not form any foundation for the argument that there
Was an analogy between the imposition of a rate in aid
in England and a rate in aid in Ireland; because they
Must be applied under totally different circumstances,
arising out of the condition of society and the tenure of
the land. He objected to the Bill, also, on the ground
that it had a decided tendency to operate against the ad-
Ministration of the poor-law system, and as, between
England and Ireland, it went to establish a separate na-
tional interest. An Hon. Member the other night asked
What he considered a very pertinent question, viz.—
Was there to be a union, or was there not?" Hon. Gen-
tlemen who were prepared and determined to support
the union in its full force and integrity, should consider
that the operation of this Bill proceeded altogether, and
undeniably, on antiunion principles; so that the two
Could not consistently be supported together. In princi-
Ple, too, the Bill was wholly wrong, and the policy of it
far from wise. Could it be to their interest, for example,
to withdraw from Ulster and Leinster the capital which
Was well employed in promoting agriculture and ma-
nufactures, in order to apply it to the support of
Pauperism in Connaught? The Irish claimed to be
taxed in the proportion of imperial taxation falling to
their share, according to the articles of the Union. They
in England said they were not. Let the question be fairly
tried, and the sooner that was done the better. He was
sure that the people of Ireland would be glad to submit
to a fair proportion of taxation, and if he could have
any assurance from the Government that only a fair
%Mount of taxation would be imposed upon Ireland, he
should not object to it, whatever its amount might be,
Provided that that amount was determined according to
the principles of the Act of Union. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the Bill
be read a second time on that day six months.
Mr. CORRY seconded the amendment. He objected
to the Bill because it was impolitic and unjust. It was
impolitic, because its operation would be to retard the
cultivation of the land in one part of Ireland without im •
Proving it in another. It was unjust, because it imposed
the tax on the industrious and prosperous to relieve the
indolent and indigent in a remote country, over whose
conduct they had not the slightest control, and in whose
distress it was unreasonable to expect that they should
feel any interest or sympathy, when it was considered
that they had their own poor around them, who would
not be in any degree benefited by the produce of the
rate. The Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's
Government was of opinion that the proposed rate in aid
Would not be necessary for more than two years; but he
Would ask the Noble Lord, what prospect was there that
the distress would disappear in two years? With re-
spect to emigration, he considered that the Government
Only threw obstacles in the way of it, and he could not
approve of it as a remedy to obviate the distress from
Which the people were suffering.—(Hear, hear.) There
sever was a time, he felt, at which it was more neces-
sary for the landed proprietary of Ireland to exert them-
selves to keep down the rates, for the Bill now under
consideration was of a nature to convert the whole of
Ireland into one great gigantic union. Ho felt it to be
his duty to give expression to his opinions on this sub-
ject, and, thanking. the House for the attention with
which it had listened to him, he should conclude by
seconding the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said his Hon. Friend
who had just sat down said, it it could be proved to him
that Ireland was not taxed in proportion to her means,
by inquiry before a Committee appointed for that pur-
Pose, both he and those who acted with him would be
quite ready to come forward, and to say, then apply the
income-tax to Ireland. But his Hon. Friend should re-
collect that the case which called forth the measure now
before the House was one of great emergency, and that
it was absolutely necessary that something should be dune
to meet it. The Hon. Gentleman objected to the tax
further, on the ground that it was a new tax; but to ob-
ject to it on that ground was really blinking the ques-
tion. Was not the income-tax a new tax? Me (Sir W.
Somerville) rem( mbered when the income-tax was
firet proposed for Eegland by the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Tamworth, that he and those who acted
with him, listened with breathless attention to the Hon.
Baronet's statement, apprehensive lest he might propose
to apply it to Ireland too, and when the Hon. Baronet
had stated that it was not his intention to apply it to
that country, there was a manifestation of applause
among the Irish Members. His Hon. Friend who pro-
Posed the amendment objected to the measures of the
Government, on the ground that the distress was mainly
attributable to the mal-administration of the poor-law in
Ireland by the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. HAMILTON explained, and expressed his
Opinion that the law would be more likely to be ad-
Ministered, beneficially to the ratepayers, by boards of
guardians answerable to those ratepayers, than by
Poor-law Commissioners not answerable to them.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE begged to disabuse
the mind of his Hon. Friend on those points, and to
assure him, with respect to the dissolution of boards of
~guardians, that there was not one of those dissolutions—
zoyle, or otherwise, that he was not prepared to defend.
Great stress had been laid on the circumstance of asking
industrious Ulster to contribute towards relieving the
distress of other parts of Ireland; but he did not see
the justice of the complaints. The distress was spread-
ing; Ulster might not escape; and he did not see how
she could blow hot and cold on this question. It was
said that the landlords of Connaught were pauperised
by the operation of the poor-law. He did not
believe that to be the case ; but his belief was that
their pauperisation was attributable to the failure
of the potato crops. He was extremely sorry to differ
With his Hon. Friends the proposer and seconder of the
amendment, but, connected with Ireland us he was, he
thought that the time was come when Irishmen should
make some effort to contribute towards alleviating the
distress, and for himself—an Irishman—he should say
that he preferred the rate in aid to the extension of the
income. tax to Ireland. All that the House had now to
decide upon was, as to the best manner of meeting the
distress; and it should never he forgotten that the pro-
posed rate in aid was intended to be but a temporary
measure. His Honourable Friend who proposed
the amendment expressed himself in favour of
emigration as a means of remedying the distress,
and approved of it; while his Hon. Friend, the seconder
of the amendment, disapproved of it, and said that the
Government encouragement of it seemed to throw ob-
stacles rather in the way of it; so that he did not know
how to deal with the arguments of his Hon. Friends.
Ile believed the measure proposed by her Majesty's Go-
vernment would be found, on the whole, to be the least
°Ppressive; and he believed further, that if the Govern-
ment proposed the extension of the income-tax to Ire-
land; and that if Hon. Members should, in a moment
of hurry, give their support to it, they would repent of
it, when, perhaps, too late; for while the rate in aid
Was intended to be but temporary, the income-tax might
be permanent.
Lord JOCELYN, in rising to support the amendment
of his Hon. Friend, was anxious to state the ground on
Which ho had come to the conclusion to give his vote in
opposition to the measure of her Majesty's Government.
lie begged distinctly to state, that he was not opposed to
the extension of all fair taxation to Ireland, if the Bri-
tish Parliament should be of opinion that that country
did not pay its just proportion; but he was opposed to
the present measure from a sense that it was most unjust
to call on one portion of the empire to contribute to-
Wards the support of another, and that all temporary
enactments were of a nature to turn the people away
from their self-reliance. He contended that this desire
to feed the paupers of a particular locality out of a gene-
ral fund was calculated to increase rather than to lessen
Pauperism. This Bill did away with that local con-
trol over public funds, which was so essential to their
Proper management. He believed that this Bill would
Press heavily upon the tenant-farmers of Ulster,. and
he might here mention that the grand jury of Louth,
HI objecting to the rate in aid, consented to take upon
them, if this measure were not pressed forward, their
share in the general taxation of the country.
Mr. F. FRENCH, in objecting to this measure, said
that the Members who opposed it were willing to bear
any impost that would raise the taxation of Ireland in
Proportion to that of England. But it was a mistake to
!Ely that no income-tax was paid in Ireland, for he con-
tended that tax was paid on 8,000,00111. out of the
.02000,0004 which was the estimate of the value of
Irish property. The Hon. Gentleman, after declaring
that the poor-law had failed in Ireland, said that this
measure was intended to prop up that law, which, if con-
tied, would bury all 014519130 ui irela id lu ono 012111011

ruin—a result which could not but operate injuriously
on England at no very distant period.
Mr. FAGAN said his coeetituency had expressed
their approbation of the vote which lie had given in
favour of this measure. Ile and they were opposed
to an income. tax. It was a mistake to say that he
was hostile to the landlords. He thought the landlords
of Ireland were much to be commiserated, and that
their condition was much to he deplored. A Noble
Lord (Lord Jocelyn) had told them that they ought
to look to self-reliance; but was it reasonable to speak
to the people of Ireland of self-reliance placed in
the position they were at present by the failure of the
potato crop?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fagan) supported
the Ministers in the present measure, in the hope that
it would be the means of rescuing thousands from
starvation. He believed there was a doctrine passing
through the minds of some statesmen, that there was no
remedy for the present state of things in Ireland, and
that they should be allowed to take their course. He
thought, however, such a doctrine was unworthy of
statesmen, and unworthy of that House. He
believed that the measure proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) hal met with
the approval of the people of Ireland, and he hoped that
the Right Hon. Baronet would have an oppotunity
afforded him of carrying out that measure, not only as re-
garded Connaught, but as regarded the whole of Ireland.
—(Hear, hear.) With reference to what the lion. Mem-
ber for Roscommon (Mr. F. French) had said, he ad-
mitted that it was quite consistent with that Hon. Mem-
ber's opinions, as he had always been opposed to the
poor-laws; but he (alr. Fagan) would say, being as he
was, the oldest guardian in that House, that he had
always found the Poor-law Commissioners most anxious
in the performance of their duties, and that they were
much more desirous of attending to the wants of the
poor than the poor-law guardians were themselves.
Mr. HERBERT had not heard a single word of argu-
ment in support of the mode which was proposed for
raising the money which was required for relieving the
destitute poor in Ireland.—(Hear.) What he com-
plained of was, that her Majesty's Government, with all
the information they possessed, had not come down with
any measure to meet the difficulty, but were placing
their reliance on a temporary measure like the present.
He would have given his support to any system of taxa-
tion that would operate fairly ; but he could not give his
support to a mode of taxation which would fall upon a
certain class of farmers, and the question was, should
they place the tax upon a class least able to bear it? He
(Mr. Herbert) would say that rather than do so he would
give his consent to an income-tax, or to any tax that
would operate fairly. He was a friend to the poor-law,
but he complained of the neglect exhibited by the Poor-
law Commissioners in not attending to the suggestions
they received in Ireland. Much as he was opposed to
the present measure, he altogether condemned the lan-
guage which had been used at various meetings in Ulster
on the subject.
Mr. PO ULETT SCROPE said that in the worst pro-
vince, that of Connaught, the poor-rate last year did not
exceed two shillings and sixpence in the pound. Now,
it was not this amount of rate that had created such
distress, but the attempt still made to enforce the
rent of twenty shillings, which was fixed before
the failure of the potato crop. Hag the rent been
reduced in proportion, the tenants would not have
been driven from their country, and forced, as many
had bees, to seek shelter in America. The condition
of the people ot England could not be raised without
also elevating the condition of the people of Ireland,
and, as a means to this end, he thought the English sys-
tem of poor-laws ought to be brought into operation in
Ireland. He then enumerated the measures which he
had proposed in order to render the Irish people self
sustaining and self-improving. The main cause of the
destitution of Ireland, as testified by the universal assent
ot the inspectors and guardians, was the want of em-
ployment, and nothing was done to meet that state of
things. They repudiated the idea of employment in
their Poor-law Act, although for two centuries and a
half the principle of employing the able- bodied poor was
admitted. Would it be contended there was no field for
employment? It was absurd to think that Ireland was
over-peopled. The evidence of the inspectors went to
show that a finer or more profitable field for labour
could not be found than presented itself even in the dis-
tressed unions. The fatal point in the policy of Ministers
was omitting some means of rendering the people self-
sustaining. He objected to a rate in aid, as being con-
trary to the principle of the poor-law--local responsi-
bility for local destitution.—(Hear, hear.) According to
the authority of the Dublin Evening Mail, the warmest
advocate of the landlords in Ireland, there would not be
one farthing of the rate collected west of the Shannon
if this measure was carried. He would provide the
money necessary for Irish destitution on the security
of the lands iu Connaught, and take power for the
sale of those estates on which large arrears of
rate accrued. This would be a just principle, and
carrying out the principle of the poor-law, for he
did not see why the land should not be taken from
the landlord just as they took the ass or pig from
the poor tenant. Why should not those who created
extreme pauperism in the west pf Ireland be respon-
sible for its relief ? If the powers he recommended were
carried out, they would obtain repayment in full, and
effect that which was admitted in the present circum-
stances of Ireland to be most desirable, namely, the
change of proprietary.—(Hear.) An auxiliary system
for the employment of the poor should follow.
Sir JOHN WALSH complained that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stroud had wasted the time of the House in re-
iterating his former observations, and he promised that
he should not follow his example. The out 000 r sys
tem of relief was the most disastrous that could have
been adopted for Ireland, as it tended to the de-
moralization of the people. Already the estates
of many landlords in the west of Ireland had
been practically confiscated, for they received no rents
during the last two or three years, so that in some re-
spect, at all events, the wishes of the lion. Member tor
Stroud were fulfilled. With regard to the measure under
consideration, it would not meet the evil which it was
proposed to remedy. It they referred to the evidence
taken before the Poor-law Committee now sitting, they
would find it proved, beyond a doubt, that the rate pro-
posed must become a permanent one, as the bankrupt
unions, for whose behalf it was granted, would not for
many years be able to support themselves, and he thought
it extremely hard to saddle upon portions of Ireland,
which were maintaining their own poor, the burdens or
those unions.—(Hear, hear.) When the Poor-law
.Com-
mittee was appointed, several measures were hinted.
at as about to be brought forward as a means of
remedying the distress in Ireland, but there was, as
yet, no symptom of their being produced. The sugges-
tion thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth had met with much attention, but he
viewed with suspicion all those " great and cornpre hen-
sive measures," as they rather indicated the existence of
great and deep seated evils than provided remedies, and
he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman would have ucted
more wisely had he observed his usual reserve on the
subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman spoke
of appointing a Commission under his plan to nego-
tiate in the purchase of land, arid letting such land
out under the sanction of the Government. That
was nearly allied to the plan of the Honourable
Member for Stroud, which, in some degree, had already
been acted on, and had proved a complete failure.
Such a plan would not get rid of the difficulties which
at present existed in Ireland, for no purchaser would in•
vest money in land so burdened as the land in Ireland
was; and although it was said that the present Irish
proprietors were bankrupt, which he denied, and, con-
sequently, unable to improve their properties, yet, were
new proprietors placed on these properties, their efforts
must be as ineffectual, let them have ever sore uch money,
so lung as the burdens on land in that country remained
as at present. He could not see how the Noble Lord at
the head of Government could ask for an advance of
100,0001. on the credit of this rate, for the measure sanc-
tioning it might never become law. Such a course ought
to be reprobated and resisted by all those who were
affected by this measure, and he trusted that it would be
so successfully —(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY considered that during previous discus-
mons two principles had been established, namely, that
the amount of distress in the western unions of Ireland
was not overstated, and that extraneous aid was required
to relieve it. The Hon. Gentleman had admitted the
extent of distress, and on a former occasion it was ad-
mitted that without extraneous aid the poor in those
districts would have died from starvation. That, then,
relieved him of the necessity of referring to the official
returns on the subject. These two principles, then,
being admitted, the question turned upon whether
this extraneous aid was to be afforded by means of a
rate in aid or the income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) To-
night, however, matters had taken a turn. He had
heard nothing to-night of the income-tax, but they were
told either to leave the people to their fate or supply
their wants from the Imperial Treasury—(Hear, hear)
—by drawing upon it to an indefinite amount. The
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hamilton) had argued that it was
unjust to tax districts for the support of the poor of
other districts with which they had nothing to do, but
that argument seemed to him to run as much counter to
an Imperial grant as to one raised by a rate in aid; for the
former, was to a far greater extent making parties liable
for the support of that with which they had nothing to
do than was the latter. The Hon. Gentleman admitted
that the western districts being unable to maintain the
poor, the tax-payers of the United Kingdom ought to
be made to support them ; but why should
Ulster, which was able to support them, be
allowed to escape, and the tax-payers of the United
Kingdom have any such additional burden imposed
upon them? Already those taxpayers severely felt the
burden ; for not only had they for long been contribut•
ing to the support of those distressed unions, but in
consequence of the increase of Irish poor both in Eng-
land and in Scotland, the burdens had been greatly in-
creased. In Liverpool, and some of the metropolitan
parishes, no less than 77,000/. had been applied last year
for the support of Irish poor ; and it was a fact that
there was scarcely a parish in England in which the
poor-rates had not been considerably raised to supply
the wants of those Irish poor. In Scotland it was the
same. And lie would venture to say that both England
and Scotland were at the present time paying a rate in
aid for the support of Irish paupers, to a much higher
extent than the present measure authorised.—(Hear,
hear.) The Honourable Gentleman had also said that
were the present measure carried it would aggravate
the evils of Ireland, as it would do away with the prin-
ciple of self-reliance among the people. If, as the Hon.
Gentleman said, they should leave the people to their
fate—to provide for themselves, then certainly the prin-
ciple of self-reliance would be given full effect to; but
if they were to give them extraneous assistance, he could
not see how the giving it by a sixpenny rate in aid, or
by a grant from the Treasury, would make much dif-
ference to that principle. It there was any difference,
there was not so much injury done to the principle of
selr-reliance by the former as the latter system.—(Hear,
hear.) The rate in aid was not an indefinite rate, and
were it put into operation to-morrow it would only ren-
der the poor•rate in Ulster identical with that in Eng-