The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,

about to set aside treaties solemnly entered into without
the sanction of the Proprietor 3, who by the tenor of the
i
Act of Parliament under which we are incorporated
are themselves Governors, and you are only appointed
by them to carry on the government, that confidence
which has been heretofore reposed in you will be irre-
shaken.—(Hear.) I say you have acted most
Prauanfabiriry, because you lel us to expect that our
decision would be sought upon the matter before
you came to a final decision. Under these cir-
cumstances I will not enter into the general ques-
tion whether treaties have been violated or not,
whether a young man who had been named as
the suceessor of the deceased Raja, both by adoption
and lineal descent, is ent.tled to the territory; and I be-
lieve the person who claims to be the heir to
the territory has been indicated by the 1-de
Governor-General, Sir Robert Grant, as the real
heir—indicated, too, as such in all your docutneats.
The que-tion of his right, therefore, is quite inde
dendent of the question whether Pertaub Singh has
betrayed or violated the treaty. The question is, is his
family to be punished for any acts of which he may or
may not have been guilty?
Mr. CLARXB said the Hon. Proprietor was out of
order, unless he intended to conclude with a motion.

- _
Mr. HUME replied that the Hon. Proprietor must
know little of his practice it he thought that he intended
to conclude without a motion.—(Laughter.) He was
not, however, about to enter into the general question.
He merely wished to state that the successor of the
deceased Raja must not be held, in common parlance,
implicated in any of the guilt which was laid to the
charge of his grand uncle. Having been informed by
the First Minister of the Crown that it
was a , fact that orders had gone oar, with
the approbation of the Board of Control, to
confiscate the Sattara territory, he expressed his sincere
regret that the Directors had adopted so precipitate and
uncalled-for a step, he begged to move that the Court
do adjourn for a fortnight or three weeks,
in order that the papers might be in the hands
of the Proprietors. By law, he believed that the Pro-
prietors were entitled to copies of all documents which
were laid before the House of Commons. He had
spoken thus strongly because he felt strongly the dis-
grace—he would call it the infamy, which attached
to every one connected with the East India Company,
in consequence of the course it had adopted. If disgrace
attached to persons in private life who committed a
glaring breach of faith, how much more so must they
condemn a great Company who committed such an act as
this? It was not so much with respect to the stain of the
deceased Raja's family that he spoke thus, but of the
faith of the treaties which were about to be violated.
and the disgrace which would thereby be brought upon
his name. The Honourable Gentleman subsequently
amended his motion, and moved for copies of the
papers which he had moved for in thEr House of Com-
mons, in order that they might be circulated among the
Proprietors.—(Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN said he had no hesitation nor objec-
tion on the part of the Directors to have the papers re-
ferred to published and circulated arnoag the Pro-
prietors.—(Hear, bear.) The proposition for the ad-
journment of the Court could not receive the assent of
the Directors. It wou'd take some time to prepare the
papers, and when the Proprietors had perused them, the
Directors would be happy to • attend to any requisition
that might be presented to them for the
purpose of calling another meeting.—(Hear.) He cou►d
not, however, resume his seat without calling the atten-
tion of the Court to the very hard terms in which the
Hon. Proprietor had spoken of the Directors.—(Hear,
hear.) At the last meeting he did not make use of the
observation which the Hon. Gentleman had imputed
to him. Indeed it would have been most unconstitutional
in him to place executive powers in the hands of the
Proprietors.
A PROPRIETOR rose to order. The motion had not
been seconded.

Mr. HUME then proposed Ms motion in express terms—
" That the papers connected with tho appropriation of
the Sattara territory, and the decision of the Court, and
any minutes connected with that decision, should be laid
before the Proprietors as speedily as possible." He had
consulted the President of the Board of Control on the
subject, and he was of opinion that that was the best
form in which to frame his motion.

Mr. LEwis seconded the proposition.
Mr. CLARKE said no pledga was given by the Chairman
at the last meeting that he should produce any of the
papers.—(Hear) No such inference or deduction could
be made from the observations which the Chairman sub-
mitted to the meeting.

The Cl/AIRMAN -was glad the Honourable Pro-
prietor had made the statements he had, as it
prevented him from replying to the hard terms
used towards himself and the Directors by the Hon.
Proprietor (Mr. Hume). He could only truly and
distinctly state that no pledge of the kind was given to
the Court of Proprietors. He only said that the papers
had arrived, and that they were sub judice under the
consideration of the Directors. It never, he assured the
Proprietors, entered his mind that first of all they were to
be submitted to the Court of Proprietors, They were not
the executive government ; the time had not arrived
when the directors were to surrender that power to the
Proprietors. The Honourable Member had been
correctly informed by the First Minister of
the Crown, that the question of the right to
the territory of Sattara had been settled in con-
junction with the Board of Control, and that the confis-
cation of the territory had been determined upon. It
was not improper .for the Proprietors to discuss the mat-
ter then, but it appeared to him that they would not be
in a position to give a fair opinion until they had had
an opportunity of perusing those papers which, as he
had said, would be circulated among them with the least
possible delay. He was unwilling to name any parti-
cular day for the adjournment of the Court. When the
Proprietors had made themselves acquainted with their
contents another meeting might be called by requisition.
Mr. DONALDSON said he was present at the last meet-
ing, and certainly his impression of what the Chairman
stated with regard to the production of the papers was
ex icily as that stated by the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LEWIS, as the mover of the resolution:at the last
meeting, might, perhaps, be allowed to state what his
impression was upon the subject. When he had con-
cluded by moving his resolution, and after he
had stated his arguments in support of it, and
it had been duly seconded, the Chairman rose and stated
that he felt it to be his duty to adjourn the Court
-on the ground that the time had not Arrived for the
consideration of the subject, as it formed a matter then
under the deliberation of the Court of Directors.—
(Hear, hear.) Now he put it to any person who heard
that statement whether the plain and only intelligible
inference to be drawn from that declaration was not
that before an actual decision was come to on the Sat-
tare question, and before a final dispatch was sent
out to India confirming the decision, that Court
would have an opportunity of stating their views
and opinions on the matter?—(Bear, hear.) That was
the plain and common sense inference to be drawn from
the Chairman's statement. True, he did not actually
say that the papers should be laid before them, but the
only inference to be drawn from the tone and manner of
the Chairman was, that the papers would be forthcoming,
and the Court would have an )they opportunity of fully and
impartially discussing the question before the Executive
came to a final decision upon it. That was the natural
inference which the statement of the Chairman led to;
although he did not mean to say that the Chairman
made any pledge, but he represented that it was dis-
tinctly understood that they should have an opportunity
of discussing th's question before the dispatch was sent
out.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. lIEWSON really could not understand what
ground of complaint the gentlemen who had been
instrumental in calling the meeting could urge
against the Directors. The Honourable Gentleman
who had just addressed them said they were
to have another opportunity of discussing the question.
For his part, however, he thought they had already had
the fullest opportunity for discussion and placing their
opinions before the Court of Directors, who, no doubt,
had given them all the consideration that they were worth.
—(Hear, hear.) The Court of Directors was the only
tribunal to decide the question. The Court of Pro-
prietors might give its opinion upon it, and the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down and his friends en
tered at large into their views at the last Court, and he
was quite surprised that the Honourable Gentleman who
had introduced the question today had not well consi-
dered the proceedings of the last Court before he ven-
tured to make such sweeping charges against the Court
of Directors.—(llear, hear.) It was an odd thing that
he should now bs called upon to defend the con-
sistency of the gentlemen who took part in the
discussion at the last Court, who had certainly pat a
construction upon the;statement of the chairman which
by no means justified his being told that his conduct and
that of his co-directors was repugnant to every
principle of honesty or fair dealing, and a
violation of good faith and the law of na-
tions, and calculated to cast an indelible slur and
stain -upon the character of the Company.—(Bear,
hear.) How could that be? The Hon. Gentleman sag-.
matised their conduct in those terms because they
had not allowed the question to be discussed before they
came to a decision upon it. Why the Honourable Gen-
tleman who introduced the resolution at the last Court
entered into long arguments to prove the truth of his
position, and he was followed, true, not at great length,
by a seconder, who insisted that, according to the laws
and usages of India, the heir a the late R ije, ought to
be adopted and acknowledged by the Court.—(Hear,
hear.) Well, then, these gentlemen, and every man
who attended the Court, had had an ample opportunity
of giving their opinion upon the subject. At the last
Court, the fullest latitude was given to them for doing
so, while the directors in no way attempted to stop the
investigation. No doubt the directors were dis-
posed to be influenced by that discussion as
far as • its merits deserved, and he was
quite convinced they considered and duly weighed the
arguments adduced, on the last occasion of their meeting,
before they came to the resolution to send out the
dispatch ; and he was satisfied they were undeserving of
the vituperation which had been heaped upon them.
Major OLIPHANT said, it appeared to him that there
was very little difference of opinion amongst them on
the point in dispute; but he could assure the proprietors
that the majority of the gentlemen behind the bar would
be ready and willing to give their reasons for the course
already
they had pursued when the Court met again. In the
meante time he might perhaps be allowed to state that
could seecon
was no difference of opinion in the Court of
Directors upon the question, and as lithe Chairman had
Consented to tfoortahneypfruordthucetriodniscouf papers,discussion.—(Hear,)
Sir ,y. w. n (l i e a rh, e)
league that th ocG agreed with his honourable col-
the Direction ere
was no difference of opinion in
papers for oven:
.to the propriety of producing the
Proprietor or 3 gentleman, no matti-r whether a
a
Director,'
was equally int,?rested
iu the settlement
therefore highl • y d el,iroalbl
k publ this question. It was
laid efore the
public; that the papers should be
oi and the matter disposed of as

speedily as possible.—(Hear, he sr.) He thought no
person who had read the discussion which took
Dlue at the last Court could sympathise with
the sentiments of the Honourable Gentleman
who had opened the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Hume) made charges against his Hon. Friend the Chair-
men of this Court, in language which he was sure the
Hon. Gentleman would regret when he read it over in
his cooler moments. The Hon. Gentleman made use
of the words " dishonourable," " disgraceful," and
" ill-advised," and the only comment he should
make upon them might be compressed into
one sentence. They fell harmless upon his ,Hon.
Friend the Chairman, and only proved injurious to the
person who had used them. But he was more
astonished at the doctrine the Honourable Gentleman
had laid down with regard to the constitution of the
Court of Directors and the formation of the Company,
and he was the more surprised at this doctrine, because
it came from the lips of a gentleman who
was supposed to b 3 an authority on matters
connected with India. They were told by. the
Hon. Gentleman that the Court of Proprietors
formed the Executive Government.—(No, no.) Some
gentlemen cried " No, no," but that ,was the meaning
of what the Hon. Gentleman said ; but if that was not
the meaning of what he said, his words and observations
were altogether devoid of meaning. He said it was the
province of the Court of Proprietors to determine the
powers of their executive, but he very much doubted
whether the Hon. Gentleman would be: able to sustain
that doctrine. Now, how stood this matter? When the
discussion took place at the last meeting, his Hon.
Friend the Chairman said the question was sub judice.
Then said the Hon. Proprietor who introduced this mo-
tion, it was the duty of the Directors, according to
the Constitutional Government of India, before they
decided upon the question—before they communicated
their decision to the department who co-operated with
them in the affairs of India—to call the Proprietors
together and consult them upon it.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
that was the statement of the Honourable Gentleman,
but he (Sir J. Hogg) denied that that was the
constitutional Government of India. Everybody
could see the peril and the error at once of allow-
ing a controlling body to form part of the Exe-
cutive Government. It would be an endless
source of danger for the Executive Government
to be continually consulting the proprietary body upon
matters like these. They had example of this every
day—every session they bad example of this, more par-
ticularly in the Foreign Department of the Executive
Government. A question was asked respect-
ing some matters pending, in the course of
negotiation, and the Foreign Secretary rose and stated
that the matter was sub judice. It was under considera-
tion, and :he could not answer the question for rea-
sons which the Executive Government and the
Minister representing her Majesty did not feel
disposed to state. P, rhaps a week or a fortnight
afterwards the same question was repeated, and the
Member was informed that the thing was done—accom-
plished; but the Minister was willing and ready to lay the
papers before the House, that parties might pass their
judgment upon the conduct of the Executive Government.
then some one jumped up and said " We are always too
late or always too soon," upon which the Minister replied
that be had acted strictly in accordance with the constitu-
tion. If the constitution was wrong, alter it, but while
it existed adhere to it. It was at least the duty of their
Executive Government, to adhere to it, and there was,
therefore, no cause of complaint. That was exactly the
same in this Court. It was not competent for the Court
of Directors to wait for the decision of the Proprie-
tors before they deti rmined any question ; but it
would be physically and morally impossible to place;the
government of this`Company in: a proprietary body
numbering upwards of 2,000 persons. They were,
therefore, bound to select some body to form an Execu-
tive. If, however, that system was wrong, it was com-
petent for the Proprietors to change it, or at
least make an endeavour to do so, but do not
let Hon. Proprietors get up in the manner they had
just witnessed, and apply allorts of ill names to the
Chairman and Directors, because they bad done their
duty in acting according to the constitution and laws
of the Company. (Hear, hear.) But when
a man used harsh or hard language, it induced him to
arrive at one of two conclusions, either the party using
such language had a bad temper or a bad cause.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now his Hon. Friend had
not a bad temper. He was known in the House
of Commons to be of an excellent temperament.
He had been tried beyond all men in the House,
and had been proved to be the man least open
to give offence, and the least open to offence. It
was admitted by common consent that, amidst
the heat and strife of parties, he was one of
;he best tempered men in the House. He never
said a bard thing of any body, and seldom or never took
offence at any one, although he frequently had good
cause to do so. The conclusion he had come to at all
events was, that he never lost his temper, and
he could not for the life of him help think-
ing that he must have a bad cause.—(Hear, hear.)
It often struck him that whenever the Hon. Gentleman
got up to speak upon this unfortunate Sattara question
he felt a little uneasy in his temper. He could not
help thinking that the Honourable Gentleman felt
within himself as though he would rather say,
" Alack-a-day, what a miserable hour it was when
I first took up this unfortunate Sattara question. lam
perfectly ashamed of it myself, and of the part I have
taken in it."—(Hear, and laughter.) He could not for 1
the life of him, with all his constitutional good humour,
preserve his usual equanimity of manner and feeling
when he got up to speak upon this topic, and
he (Sir J. W. Hogg) could not help thinking that
the Hon. Gentleman heartily regretted that he was ever
drawn into becoming the advocate of such a cause as
this.—(Cheers.)
Mr. Hume must really be allowed to say a word or
two in explanation. Often as he had occasion to
complain of the Honourable Baronet being in
the wrong he bad never known him so far wrong as
he was now.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) But, not-
withstanding the observations of the Hon. Baronet, he
did not regret one word, or ono argument he had made
use of; but he must complain that the Honourable
Baronet bad taken his words without the previous
remarks. What he said was this, the Court separated,
as far as he knew, with the understanding that they
were to be informed of the decision of the Court, and to
have the papers before them before a final
settlement was come to of the question. An
adjournment took place upon that understanding, and it
was in that belief that he made me of the words re-
ferred to.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the ex-
planation of his Honourable Friend, in reference to the
constitution of the ',Company, the instance he had
mentioned was exactly in point, for upon one
occasion he called for papers which were not produced.
The Hon. Gentleman said, in that case, he (Mr. Hume)
had no right to pass an opinion upon what followed, but
what was the case? Why, when these papers were
produced he himself moved in the House of Com-
mons a vote of censure upon the Minister for what
he had done. It was, therefore, not inconsistent with
the constitution to discuss the decision of the Directors,
and his Honourable Friend, in future, when he got
upon the high horse, would do well to take care that he
did not ride him into the mud.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He would not do more now than simply
say that in applying the epithets he had done he did
so sincerely, believing that the conduct of the Directors
merited them, while he could assure the Hon. Baronet,
and he would give him credit for truth, when he said the
Hon. Baronet was mistaken in supposing that he (Mr.
Hume) fancied his cause was a bad one.—(Hear, hear.)
Sergeant GAZELEE gave it as his opinion that those
repeated adjournments of the Courts called for special
purposes were illegal and unconstitutional, and begged
to give notice to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
was then standing counsel of the Company, and who
who was considered the highest authority in the kingdom
upon such points, that at the next Court he should put
a question to him upon that matter, and he hoped the
Hoe. and Learned Gentleman would come prepared to
give him an answer.—(Hear, hear.)
A PROPRIETOR begged to asked if the notice of motion
had any relation whatever to the question before them?
The CHAIRMAN—It has nothing whatever to do
with it.

Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE said, however that might
be, he was quite sure that the Honourabte and
Learned Gentleman would make a note of his notice
and be prepared to answer his question at the next meet-
ing. He would now proceed to the matter in discus-
sion. He had always expressed himself in that Court
in courteous terms, and he had never failed to treat
every one with courtesy and respect. He
could not, however, help regretting that the Chairman
had been placed in a most untortunate position, because,
assuming for a moment that the epithets applied to the
Hou. Gentleman were not applicable to him, it would, at
all events, be admitted that he had been unfortunate in
his words and expressions, if they had led to a misunder-
standing. It was a most extraordinary fact that in this
Court when words were misunderstood, they were
always misunderstood against the Proprietors and their
rights, and in favour of the Directors.—(Laughter.) One
would almost think that the words addressed from the
chair were intended to be misunderstood, but he ven-
tured at the last meeting to warn the Proprietors that
they ought to discuss the matter fully then, for he was
quite certain that when they came again they would be
told it was too late; but the words of the Chairman
no doubt intentionally induced the meeting to think
otherwise.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Hon.
Friend that the impression he and others went away
with was, that the question was to be submitted to them
sgain before any fresh decision was come to upon it,
and it was a breach of good faith on the part of the Di-
rectors not to have kept that promise.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN--I trust the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman will not misinterpret what I did say, but I will
presently read to the Court what I said. I deny most posi-
tively that I intended such a construction to be put upon
my words as to lead to a belief that the question of the
Raja of Sattara would be submitted to their
future consideration. Now this is what I did
say, and whether the fact I have stated is
correct or not the Proprietors will see. I should
be ashamed of myself if I ever said a single
word holding out a deceptive belief. The whole
conduct of my life will gainsay anything of the
sort. I will read now to the Court what
I did say, and after that, I will not answer
any further complaint that may be made.
Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE-It is exceedingly disagree-
able to be interrupted in this way.
The CHAIRMAN—I call you to order, because you
make a most unwarrantable attack upon me. This is
what was taken by the short-hand writer:—
" It is not my intention to reply to the statements and
arguments advanced as regards this case; when the pro-
per time arrives I shall he ready to express my opinion
in regard to the appropriation of tlio Sattara territory; but
in fact I am not prepared for it now, and therefore shall
nut say a word in answer to the Run. Proprietor. I
may state that the general questio4 is sub judice. All