The Sun.
London, England, 1825-03-16 00:00:00

DUBLIN MERCANTILE PETITION.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN rose, when the House were
proceeding to the Order of the Day, observing, that he had rc
petition which he wished to present to their Lordships. It had
some reference to a question which had already been discussed
at coniidczable length by their Lordships, which was pregnant,
he trusted, with consequences the most beneficial, and which,
for the interest of all countries, could never he discussed too
much; the question he now alluded .o was that of a free, un-
fettered, anti unrestricted trade. The petition he had the honour
to present was from the Merchants, Bankers, and Traders of
the City of Dublin, who prared that their Lordships would
proceed to remove all. restrictive duties on trade, and more es-
pecially on coals as connected with the use of machinery—by the
'working of steam-engines. It was the earnest hope of the pe-
titioners that such duties would he considerably reduced,
if not altogether abolished ; and the petitioners submitted that
they could see no reason for continuing the restraints on com-
merce as carried on between the different parts of the United
Kingdom, and as affecting their commercial intercourse with
the Last and West Indies.

The petition was ordered to lie upon'tbe table.
I‘.I;II{KET • GARDENS.- .

Lord ELLEN BOROUGH now presented a petition from
(we understood) Mr. John Gould a Market-gardener, in the
parish of Chelsea, praying that their Lordships would not in-
terdict him front setting spring-guns in his grounds. He had
found that spring-guns were a main protection to his property,
which was of considerable value, and which he feared could not
be so well defended by any other means.
This petition *as ordered to lie upon the table.
Lord CALTHORPE presented a petitiou from Kingston-
upon-Hull, praying for some measure for the more speedy re-
covery of Small Debts.
• PROTECTION FOR• GARDENERS.

Lord'SUPFIFLD. said, that preparatory to his moving their
Lordships to proceed to the Order of the Day, for the House
going into a Committee on the Bill, which was yesterday se'n-
night read a second time, (the Spring-Guns Abolition Bill,) he
wished to-have the honour to propose to their Lor±ships a Bill,
consequent on the other measure he had contemplated, for
making it larceny to feloniously take away fruit and vegetables
when Upon the ground or upon trees. He had taken this step,
in consequence of his haVing been accused by a Noble Duke
( Wellington), whom he was happy to see in his place, of not
carrying the principle of the former Bill too far. Ile was rather
surprised at this objection on the part of the Noble Duke, be-
cause it bad been announced that the latter meant to oppose his.
Bill on its being brought in. If he could suppose for a moment
that the Noble Duke was insincere in the unexpected support he
bad given to the Bill, he could conceive no course more likely
to defeat the object of the measure than the amendment which
had been proposed by the Nobie Duke. Not one objection hid
been made by their Lordships to remove the use of spring-guns
from plantationsof every kind, and yet it was proposed to extend
it to all property in another form. He could only view the pro-
posal as a ruse de guerre, in the Noble Duke's own way. In
these new cases of difficulty and danger, the Noble Duke was
the first to stand in the breach.—(Calls of Order ! from the
House.)—lle did not attribute this as an artifice on the part of
the Noble Duke ; but even if it were so, it would be defeated
by the Bill, which he had now the honour to present to their
Lordships. If this auxiliary bill; for the conservation of ve-
getables and fruit, were acceded to by their Lordships, he should
be encouraged to present another for prohibiting the use of,
spring-guns ingardens and orchards. He had, during the last
week, been favoured with an accumulation of correspondence.
on the subject, the authors of 'whim, in general, had expressed
great surprise at the part taken by the Noble Duke.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had not risen to repel the
insinuations of the Noble Lord opposite. With respect to
transactions on former occasions, out of that House, to -which
the Noble Lord thought it proper to allude at the present time,
and which were wholly unconnected with the bill before the
House; he must say, that it was most unpatliamentary conduct
in the Noble Lord; it was, its fact,- beneath • the station which
the Noble Lord' held id' society to couple this measure with
actions not done in Parliament.—(Cries of Hear !)—lle cer-
tainly did think, at the outset, that the principle of the Noble
Lord's bill was nothing less than an insinuation as to the cruelty
of Noblemen-and-Gentlemen, who wished to pie erne their
game. With respect to the ruse de guerre, which the Noble
Lord .attributed -to him, he certainly had mentioned his inten-
tion of opposing the bill, and this was no secret to Noble
Lord.. but when he heard.the statement of that Noble Lord iu
the douse, and not till then, he had determined not to oppose
the bill'; indeed•,.-he himself 'had . proposed the subject as one •
well worthy of consideration.
.If the 'Noble Lord meant to ex-
tend this ni-eaSure to gardens, and property of other kind's, he
himself would:propOse•to extend it to all inclosures.
Lord SUFFIELD; in explanation, did 'away with the im.;
preSsions 'which Irislormer expressions were calculated 'to make •
on the Mind of the ;Wile Duke. With respect to the enjoyments
of any class of men, especially those of small fortunes,'he did
not.wis-ta. to interfere with what could legally be. supported ;
but if Gentlemen would mark .out to themselves enjoyments
'nut 'protected by law, he-would contend that they bad no right
to tlitm:' 'Why not protect those enjoynienui by legal means ?-
AdventakeS,ir was true; belong to all stations in life, propor-
tioned to the social scale; but numbers 'of iterea blight ndt to re-
•gulate snob pretensions. The present Rill hadbeen prepared
in concnlttnue with the - Noble and Learned' Lprd . upon tfie
Woolsack ; attic Noble Lord rear hiirovith the assistance :of
tstninent•professional men, with much pains and some cost,' l'et

he thought no pains or expence ill bestowed in accomplishing so
desirable an object.
(Here the Lord Chancellor read the title of the Bill,) .
The Earl of MALMESBURY had never used spring:lpm
and declared, that he never would use them. If they viere-eus-
tifiable at all, it would only be after sun-set; and during the
night, when persons could hare no. reasonable pretensions let
entering the grounds of others. With respect to the Bill juast
proposed by the Noble Lord, he conceived that it might be ert-
tended to turnip-fields, and also to growing weeds. He should
be sorry that the life of a man should be forfeited for a pheasant
or a partridge, but he should be more sorry. if it were lost for a
pippin or a pumpkin. .
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was decidedly of opinion, that
where persons bad no right to kill a man, they had no. right so
Set guns to slay him. He wished to extend the principle of the
present Bill.
Lord GROSVENOR wished the House to go into a Com-
mittee on the Spring Guns Bill, which had been read a second
time, without a dissentient voice; and for this purpose their
Lordships had only to consider the propriety of passing the. bill
unincumbered by the amendment which had been proposed by
the Noble Duke. The latter, he must say, was an entirely new
.proposition, which extended the provisions in regard to, gaMe.
only to gardens. If the Noble Duke (Wellington) was. sin-
cere in his support of the Bill, which he believed him really .to
be, why persevere in an amendment which clogged its present
progress, and might possibly throw it out elsewhere.. He•hoped
the Noble Duke would withdraw his amendment, and support
this measure as a separate Bill.
The Marquis of SALISBURY wished the measure to be
more general, as lie was a sincere friend to the principle of the
Bill. With regard to what had fallen from his Noble Friend
near him (Malin' esbury) as to setting spring guns after _sun-set
and during the night, he was of opinion it would be of little or
no avail, as poaching was mostly carried on during the clay.
He wished for some legal mode of defending such property,
without endangering lives.
Upon the question now being put, the Bill was read a first
time, and ordered to be printed.
Lord SUFFIk;LD, in reference to the debate of a fornier
night, observed, that his course of proceeding had been misun-
derstood by some Noble Lords. It was then propOsed to extend
the principle of the Spring-gun Bill to gardens ; but to ob-
viate this difficulty in the progress of that Bill, he promised to
bring in a specific Bill for the protection of gardens. This pro-
mise, as their Lordships now saw by the Bill just read a first time,
he had endeavoured to perform in the first instance. He could
also lay before their Lordships, if necessary, a statement of the
law.relative to gardens, some of the absurdities of which, it
could not be forgotten, had been described on *a former evening
by the Noble and Learned Lord upon the Woolsack, and also
by the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government. It
did great credit to his Majesty's Ministers, when it was consi-
dered how much their attention was engaged by more weighty
affairs, that they had taken so much trouble to inquire into this
branch of our law. The statement on this subject was furniihed
by persons high in the confidence of Government, with a view
to a general revision of our Criminal Code. He put it to their
Lordships, whether the Bill ought not to be read a first time,
and then left on the table, as an earnest of that more general
system of legislation which was in contemplation. The Bill
for abolishing spring-guns might go on nevertheless ; but lie
did not wish to unite them together, as it might endanger the
safety of the former in another place. The preamble of the
present Bill declared, that spring-guns and other 'offensive en-
gines were unlawful, and then it enacted, that it was " not
lawful to set them in gardens, orchards, nurseries, or-other cul-
tivated grounds, for destroying or harming any persons." The
Noble Lord then alluded to a low cases in which the proprie-
tors of land had set spring-guns, and forgot to 'inset them in the
morning. From this neglect he said the most fatal accidents had
occurred. The first case was that of a landed proprietor, who
was shot by the spring-gun which he had set in his own planta-
tion ; and although he was severely wounded, and lingered long
in pain, he caused the dreadful machine to be set again, and ttae
consequence was, that through his negligence or inattention,
he was again *gliFivoiSlY wound d.—( Hear !)--In a letter
which be had received from Birmingham, it was stated, that a
gentleman had set spring guns in his enclosures, the wires of
which intersected the walks in all directions. His gardener, on
his way to trim the vines, accidentally touched the wire, and was
severely hurt. In 1818, an inquest was held at St. Thomas's
Hospital, before Mr. Thomas Shelton, on the body of a .gar-
dener, who in setting two spring guns had been wounded in
the arm, and died from loss of blood. Mr. Shelton, in 'sum.;
ming up the evidence, arid, that " no person had a right to
set spring guns in his t.rard,m, for the robbery of a garden. was
not death by law;" and he gave it as his opinion that the Jury
would be justified in bringing in a verdict of wilful murder
against the party who had caused the death of an individnal
by means of these engines. Another melancholy accident had
happened in Ireland through the incautious use of them. A
omitted his general
eldon
i practice'
ventured()ut
and,
Captain Whitby had, in order to prevent his garden being pl,
lady who
fered of some choice apples,, set spring guns, with the avowed
grouse intention of taking them away in the morning. On the first
gn dhe infirm
hisda mother,
y
o f s
an ageoedtina
of doors, took the singular resolution to walk out that 'morn-
ing, and, what was more singular, to pluck an apple front the
very tree under which the guns were set.. She unfortunately
touched the spring, and when the servants discovered her shy
was quite dead. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the
third reading of the Bill for abolishing the use of Spring aims
- in Gardens, Orchard, and other cultivated grounds.
The Duke of WELLINGTON begged tarernind the NOble
Lord that he had opposed neither the second reading of the Bill,
nor its going into a Committee, and as yet he had not heard any
opposition to the clauses which he moved to be included in it.—
The Noble Lord would 'find, on investigating the matter, that
manraccidents had been prevented by these instruments, and
how Much property had been -saved froni depredation r and it'
the gentlemen in the neighbourhood of the town were deprived
of them, they must employ more gamekeepers and watchmen to
protect their property, which would be attended with !greater
expence and with a greater loss of life. Ile wished- tis, protect
the country gentlemen from the insinuation that they alone set
these instruments.—(hear!)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH agreed with the Noble puke-in
thinking that a great loss of human life was saved. by the "spring
guns. lf their Lordships were to legiSlate on all the modes by
which men accidentally lost their lives, he did not know the ex-
tent to which they might be carried. • More deaths
.wereocca-
sinned from loaded guns being carelessly left in Slieway, 'than
from the setting of these engines. It was impossible to prevent
the recurrence of such cases. He conceived it absurd to 'intro-
-duce the principle, and then to bring in separate Bills which
-were to apply the principle so approved of to all the different
cases. Could it not be embodied in one intelligible Act if they
wished it to be carried into effect ? Where there was m.'brick
wall or a fence of wooden palisades, there was no chance of per-
sOns falling over either, except it was.n child or a drunken loan.
The prineiple of the Bill might be correct, but the practical con.
sequences, would be to lay the property of gentleqlen near the
town at the mercy of all the thieves in the neiglibonrliood:
. The. Earl-of LA U DE It DA LE objecte'd to the number:Of the
Bills before the House. He thought it a clumsy, way of legis-
lating; it was the practice of their Lordships to produce one
uniform Bill on any subject, the principle of which had meg
their approbalion:_

The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the proper course
would be to consolidate the three Bills. He agreed in the pro-
priety of affording protection to the nurseries and orchards ;
but two Acts had passed in the reign of the late King, which
declared it Penal for any person to pluck fruit in these enclosed
places.
Lord HOLLAND said that the two Bills ought to be read a
first 'time, and the other might in the Meantime-go...through a
Committee; and this would give
,their Lordships an. Opportu.
nity, if they should. think it advisable, further to introducettie
general principle which it involved.
Lord SUFFIELD said that he had no objection to intro..
ducieertain words.into his 13i11, if they met with the apprObs.:
thin of the House.
Their Lordships then resolved themselves into a Committee
on the Bill.

, The first asuse was read by the Chairman.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH wished a clause to be introduced
into the Bill, 'excepting .those gardens or *mations ybich
were surrounded by high walls 'or wooden palisades frOM its
operation. .
The Karl of LIVERPOOL moved that, the Bill extend to
every place where .spring-guns or steel-traps-wser'e _set.
The House divided on the motion, when there appeareld
Contents - -
"shit Contents
Majority

-23

After 'some verbal alterations in the 11$11, the Hoirse
re;3-Orned,
rindlthelteport of the.t.orinnittee wad: ordered (we undenotood}
to'be reCeived.to-Moirow.—Adjourned.