The Sun.
London, England, 1836-04-27 00:00:00

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De"
made much for the contin---gent7dvantages of Cor-
sPL°:rpastiPris in. the eyes of those most interested. Their Lord-
seusisinha4 been told that in all the countries in Europe pos-
Corp! f!asa institutions were governed locally by Municipal
argu-
ment _natisons, and that statement bad been urged as an argu-
bati avour of the passing of the Bill under discussion.
were d_w,scre the objects of these Corporations ? They
tie, eti,enive and protective. What would be the condi-
offennsri hose created under the Bill before their Lordships?
there,
and and destroying. There was no parity between
-But ;In the argument consequently fell to the ground.
c was
were n!ed in favour of the measure, that there
cour:rtry
that
that rations in Scotland as well as in England,
deny them to Ireland would not be to do
was Ire' equal justice with them ? It had been asked why
the 3.111 to be treated differently from any other portion of
tegrarl:nre, acknowledged as it was on all hands to be an in-
.,!?art of it ? Ireland was differently circumstanced from
,el);irocrigland or Scotland. England and Scotland had no
cal _all! animosity and national feeling, superadded to politi-
i r?lsans'nip. Ireland had. But the Bill before their
4,orashi
titan Asps aid not go on the principle of the English Corpora-
of
.),st', and it was, therefore, idle to argue on the equality
cis 'en as applied to the question at issue. Besides, the
treeteu_rns B,ta.nces of Ireland, as he had already stated, mere ex-
7.nrrlifferent from those of England. The sole question
; after all, a recurrence should be had to a few great
IreienP,'es--as it was agreed on all hands that Corporations in
t),e4. should be extinguished, what was to be substituted in
PesferP act-1? It was for their Lordships to decide how he had
,•srned his duty ?—( Hear. )
opevniecdount MEI:BOURNE said that the Noble Lord who
the orist•he debate had begun with a history and description of
and to air., constitution, and uses of Corporations in boroughs
case in Ireland, and he had endeavoured to make out a
nyin.: they had been established for political purposes—de-
Paigi,,,at` they had in that respect any similitude to those of
not eet"u
He had said that they were in a great measure, if
as the IrelYs political institutions, established by Government
Paiglirtrsuards of Protestantism, and the strongholds of the
1%4)0'1.1 interest in that country. To a certain extent the
raitteeN was right, and he (Lord Melbourne) freely ad-
Lord Inat these were among their uses. But the Noble
listailtseas not correct in stating, and their Lordships would be
ere for if they believed, that the Corporations in England
different objects, and that in point of fact many of them
eb,"°t created for similar purposes, though, perhaps, not pre-
Rnd altogether the same. A great proportion of the
I b 8 and Corporations in the west of England were ere-
] thc, Protector Somerset, in the reign of Edward the
i
'nwith the express and avowed purpose of upholding the
;4" or the Reformation, by means of the increased Par-
3arY influence which` they placed at his disposal ; and,
; other hand, Queen Mary, on her accession to the
creasted a considerable number of boroughs with Cor-
50s in the north of England, where the Catholic interest
tssiotiy ::::est with the view of
-giving additional power to
in the State. The difference between the original'
the Irish and English Corporations in many
3 was; not, therefore, so great as. the first impression
the Noble Lord's statement was calculated to make
?at the real question before their Lordships was,
"eY were constituted, or for what purpose, but what
done to amend the evil which it was admitted by all
'ell on Ireland? It was agreed to by every one that
Corporations, as they existed at present in that
ere a nuisance, and that it was necessary they
t once removed. The real question then for their
o decide on was, what should be substituted in
Be (Viscount Melbourne) had listened to the
he Noble Lord whose motion was before their
se had attentively listened' to it—he had heard
stated by the Noble Lord in which he con-
°some things had been pointed out by him
rthy of every notice ; but, with all his attention
desire to profit by the Noble Lord's su,g-
sith an anxiety to know everything that could
iubject—he confessed he was at a loss to dis-
in it which met that question in the manner in
be met namely, a statement of what was the
o between England and Ireland, which ren-
was good for the one, insalubrious and evil
le (Viscount Melbourne) did not mean to
sstion of the extinction of Corporations, in-
sing admitted, there was no necessity for his
suld, therefore, keep to the sole question be-
n. The Noble Lord on the other side was
local government in the place of those Cor-
se to be abolished. He (Lord Melbourne)
he difference between them. The Noble
vould be unwise, imprudent, wrong ; he
aid, on the contrary, that it would be right,
He understood the Noble Lord who
have stated that he admitted the wis-
municipal institutions per se—and 'hat
py, if lie could do so, to find
pt their principle. The Noble and
same side, said, on the contrary
row over Municipal Corporations
de no saving whatever with regard to
that there was no comparison between
nd introduced a new principle, entirely
the Noble Lord his predecessor. The
d had said, you have taken away all
7 the Corporations, the police, the
I other things—what remains ? He
wild tell their Lordships. The Cor-
d remain ; and though the Noble
count that as nothing, it had some
slbourne's) consideration of the ques-
in ; and they were what Ireland
wanted more than another in that
local aristocracy which Corpora-
'nasmuch as it encouraged order,
ated confusion. It was a thing,
rather than opposed, to be fos-
sci.—( Hear.) The Noble and
led a new theory respecting the
nection with religion in Ireland,
of the hostility which existed,
een Protestants and Catholics.
;Ist be correct ; but whatever
i of Corporations without the
in their place, was not the
amendment of the Noble
tion to too much centralize.
Bland—the people would be
;creral Government and the
Government, and many evils
snsummation. If any thing
'ng should be cherished—if
gland, it was that there should
t and the power of interfe-
t might be necessary. Yet
o abolish. Would the large
d as their interests would
vould also be by the exclu-
ment—would they calmly
cede to the course their
rashly about to pursue?
d complained that he had
ooints in the Bill, and
snaking out lists by the
sughs. He (Lord Mel-
o Noble Lord the infor-
sd the usual course was,
before any discussion
former point, some one
-clerks was as eligible
h regard to the ward-
is nearly completed at
ntirely so by the time
thip's House. These
ttee on the English
'ne) did not see any
the Irish Bill of this
louse was, whether
ale to the objections
would become nor-
ogether. In every
institutions of a
isentients, on the
'eceived as a right,
sd on id the light
as to be paid at
Habeas Corpus
Constitution, as
some timid per-
to see, ulterior
if this class of
sure would ever
fear would for
was there for
sormal schools
ume that they
? But even
sr evil? Ab-
ire feeble and
stituted for a
nd departing
he case with
; in place of
these bodies
'y would be
re the case,
with which
silty or the
it assumed
he House
tic Mem-
I of these
uliar cir-
se would
`l—whc-
'Once in
showed
ns sue.
Th e
aholic
is be_
their
ikely
t the
rmer
in a
seen
ved
led
the
of
n-

cr influenc3 over others to urge them to vote according
to his view, without reference to their own will, their own
feelings, or their own consciences. With regard to the in-
fluence of the Roman Catholic Clergy, it was difficult to se-
parate the influence of religion itself from that of its Ministers.
That influence was a blessing or a curse according as it was
exercised. Their Lordships could not expect to diminish that
influence by diminishing the rights of the people. He had
stated that an influence also existed in England, having for
its object the coercion of voters' consciences, which was an un-
deniable fact. But he would ask their Lordships whether that
fact afforded an argument for any curtailment of the rights
which the people possessed ?—(Hear, bear.) The Noble Vis-
count, who was rather inaudible at the close of his speech,
stated in conclusion, that he felt unable to address their Lord-
ships longer; but he should say, before he ceased, that he
thought it would be much better if they permitted the Bill to
go into the Committee, and consider it there, rather than de-
feat it altogether by the adoption of the amendment. If not,
they would commit a hasty, a rash. and imprudent action.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESCI replied. It did not
much matter, he said, whether Roman Catholics were elected
or not, provided that Protestants could be sent, bound hand
and foot by Catholic constituencies, to destroy all the insti-
tutions of the country. There were some other points to
which he should like to advert ; but seeing the disposition of
the House, he should abstain from doing so. The Noble
Lord opposite had complained that he had not explained the
difference between the two countries, and why the same prin-
ciples should not be equally applied to both. He would tell
the Noble Lord that it was that difference, a difference which
was on all hands admitted to exist, that constituted the reason
why the administration of justice should be withdrawn from
the Irish Corporations, though placed in the hands of the En-
glish Corporations.—( Cheers.)
Lord HOLLAND rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide." He merely wished to say in explanation, that the
Noble Lord was quite mistaken in supposing that he had de-
nied that the Noble Lord had a perfect right, according to the
usages of the House to propose an instruction.
Lord FITZGERALD observed that in 1823, ast►ppeared
from the journals of their Lordships's House, it appeared that
an instruction was proposed on the question for going into
Committee on the Tithe Composition Bill, in order to intro-
duce a particular clause. The instruction was rejected, but
the clause was inserted in the Committee, and the Bill passed,
and was sent down to the Commons.
Lord HOLLAND said that he had not been aware that
such an authority existed to show that proposing an instruction,
under the circumstances, was improper. He d►d not say it in
triumph, but he could not help observing that the Noble Lord
had cited an authority against himself.
Lord FITZGERALD replied that if he were wrong, he
would give the point up.
The Gallery was then cleared of strangers, and their Lo:d-
ships divided, when there appeared,
For going into Committee—

Present ... ............
Proxies

For the amendment—
Present
Proxies

-119

133
70
203

Majority for the Instruction......

On the re-admissioni of strangers, we found
The Marquis of L ANSD 0 WNE, addressing their Lord.
ships. The Noble Lord was understood to say that, by the
motion which had just been carried; the matter had been taken
altogether out of the hands of his Majesty's Government.
It was not their wish to throw any unnecessary impedi-
ments in the way of the Bill, nor did they wish its pro-
gress to be delayed a moment longer than was absolutely
necessary. As, however, it was proposed that new clauses
should be inserted in the measure, he thought it would only
be fair towards all parties that those clauses should be
printed and laid upon the table of the House,' in order that
their object might be seen and considered before any further
steps was taken.—( Hear.)
Lord LYND HURsT, in reply to the question of the Noble
Marquis, begged leave to state that it had always been his in-
tention that the clauses which were proposed to be introduced
into the measure should be printed and circulated among their
Lordships before any discussion upon them took place. His
object was that their Lordships should have the fullest possible
opportunity of considering those clauses.
Viscount MELBOURNE—Are we to have the Committee
on Thursday? Oh, but I suppose that delay will be too long
for the Noble Lords opposite?—( A laugh.)
Lord L YNDH UR ST— As you say the Bill is now our Bill,
it is fit that we should put it into proper shape, and therefore I
propose taking the Committee on Tuesday next.
Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock
until Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Aram 26.
The SPEAKER took the chair this day at the usual hour.
DUN NAVIGATION.

Mr. CHILDERS presented a petition against the Dun
Navigation Bill, and several other private Bills.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY.

Lord STORMONT moved the second reading of the
Great Northern Railway Bill.
Mr. WOD EHO USE presented a petition against the
Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he should oppose the second
reading, and propose that it be deferred till this day six
months.—( Hear, hear.) It was well known that he
was not farourable to any Railroad, but in addition,
he objected to this, because the Standing Orders had not
been complied with, which require that copies of the whole
of the plan should be deposited in the offices of the Clerks of
the Peace of the several counties through which the line was
proposed to pass. Having also minutely considered the evi-
dence taken before Committees on other Bills, he was inclined
to think a different line would be preferable.
Major HANDLEY would also oppose the second reading
of this Bill, although, if he were to consult his own interest,
he would support it, inasmuch as it was much more conve-
nient to him than the other line.—(Cries of " Hear.")
He thought it was the duty of that House to protect
property against the speculators of the Stock Exchange, for
this was a speculation of this description, as might be inferred
from the parties concerned in getting it up, and, strange to
say, it was backed by Members of that House; and a petition
bad been presented in its favour with 42 signatures, one of
whom had no property in any of the counties through which the
railway was to pass. When he first saw the petition, he
thought it was on the subject of some Western Railway, from
the residences attached to the signatures, many of which were
Bath, Bristol, and. other places in the West of England.
In the present case he had found with surprise that on the last
day granted by the rules of that House for lodging plans. they
had indeed been lodged, but some of them not till midnight.
When he came to look at them, so far at least as regarded his
own property, he found that there were no landmarks, no guides,
and, in short, that it was impossible for a person to follow
them even through his own estate.—(Hear, hear.) He had
found that surveys had in very few instances been taken,
and the sections varied considerably from those laid down in
the plans. It was, therefore, impossible that any Committee
could allow the Bill to proceed ; and it was the duty of that
House to protect private country gentlemen, whose parks and
gardens were ruthlessly intruded upon, and had no other way
of defending their rights than by coming before a Committee
of the House, at an expense of, perhaps, 3001. or 4001. If it
was for the public advantage, there might be some ground
for pressing forward the present measure. He did
not wish that the Bill should be exposed to the country as
it might entail ruin upon many, but still he appealed to that
House if he had not made out a sufficient case to induce them
to :reject it. The landed proprietors along the line were
anxious for a Railway, but they wished it to be a well digested
and well considered. one. If this was the best line, the parties
were now before a Committee as a competing line. Let them
prove their case, and defeat that opposing Company, and
they would be in a better situation for coming before
the House next year. He had an advertisement which had
gone round the whole of the papers on the line, and had ap-
peared in the Times, stating that shares would be issued up till
the 15th inst., and that no deposit would by required. This
clearly showed that the public were not anxious to accept
these shares ; and that the forty-two west country gen-
tlemen found that there was much difficulty in getting
rid of the number of shares which was necessary, in order to
let them come before the House. He opposed the second
reading of the Bill, on the ground of its being high time for
the House to interfere between the country and these rash
speculators_( Cheers)—when they found that six hundred
land owners had never been asked whether they assented or dis-
sented, and when there were 300 or 400 gentlemen
in Lincolnshire, whose property would be much affected, who
would be dragged up before the Committee, if the House
passed the Bill.. He trusted they would agree to the amendment
of the I-lon. and Gallant Member.

Mr. HE AT HCOTE said that although he was not very
sanguine about the whole of the Railroad Bills that had been
brought forward, yet he could not go as far as some of his
friends did in his observations against them.—(Hear.)
As far as his own opinion went he thought it advisable
to give the present Bill a negative. His Gallant Friend had
stated that the Standing Orders had not been complied with,
with respect to this Bill. Now, as to mere technicalities, he
must profess be was utterly ignorant ; but for himself, he must
say, that the first notice he had of this Bill was from the public
newspapers that it had been read a first time, and a friend of
his only knew of it a few days ago.--( Hear, hear, hear.)
In the present instance, however, there had been
not only a want of technical notice, but a want of that noto-
riety which ought to be given to it. In the present Bill there
was a chain of private injuries which the House ought not to
tolerate. He believed there was a much better line proposed;
but if there was not, all be would say was, let them both start
fair. He understood that the other line got rid of all
those infringements of private rights which were so much
complained of in the line proposed by the present Bill. He was
perfectly acquainted with the respectability of the parties con-
nected with one line, but he knew little or nothing of the par-
ties connected with the other. There was not an individual
subscriber who expected that this Bill would pass this Session,
so that it would not be fair to the subscribers themselves to
pass it, as it would be a saving of money to them iF they did not
go into Committee. He had not the slightest personal feeling
in the matter, and he was sure if they went into Committee, that
he would attend as well as he was able, and examine the two
lines as well as he could ; but he thought they would be doing
justice to the petitioners and to the public if they stopped the
e ought
Proceedings in the present stage.
Mr. EATON was understood to say that in justice to the
petitioners they
time. y to allow the Bill to be read a second

Lord ALFORD opposed the Bill.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that the best thing that could
be said in favour of this Bill was that this was the third expe-
riment that had been made to get rid of it—(Hear, hear,