The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-17 00:00:00

LONDON; SATURDAY 4VENING, DECEMBER It, 18:31.

S EC()N 1) El )1111 Jk

SUN OFFICE, Seven o'Clook

IMPERIAL PA RLIAMENT

OF THIS EVENING.

ROUSE OP COMMONS.
(CONTINUED FROM OUR FOURTH PAGE.)

Mr. S. WORTLEY, in continuation, said—he had now ex.
stained to the House the length to which he agreed with the
provisions of the present Bill; and if it were asked why? when
he was prepared to disfranchise to the extent of schedule A, and
to enfranchise to a considerable extent, lie was still not preparmi
to vote for the second reading of the present Bill, his answer was,
that he had not maile,these admissiens Open any conyiction ahat
such alterations. were either .eXeedi6it or rt-"ce"lrY.—illear,
bar; hear.) If Government still Was determined to per_
severe in forcing upon that House, and upon the great body
: .01 the intelligent, wealthy, and respectable part of the
' community, this Bill through successive sessions, he shouldjtery
much regret such a course of procedure; but still he hoparleth et
litany. who had preViously supported Government wouloVen.:
operate with those who v. ere de •irous to wad, and make, the
Riff_ less objectivable; and as sere for the-countr ak p,citssible.
•----M• ear."' At all events, he trusted there would still be Spirit !gild
cpurage enough iti th eliiends of the Constitution to enablethem to
&new that front in a bold and fearless discharge of their duty to
the House and to the public, as should again save the country
-from the infliction of this ill-advised and dangerous measure.—
(Cheers from the Opposition.) •
Mr. GODSON then addressed the House, but in so low a tone
that it was with much difficulty we could hear him. The altera-
tion, he said, that had taken place in this Bill had not touchdcl
the principle, and, therefore, he would.. support it •by his
vote.—(Hear.) The IN. clause, although altered', somewhat
bimuglit biek the fiatichise, and made it more conformable to
the common law right. In every quarter it was admitted that
some Reform was necessary, and indeed why should its necessity
not be admitted ? For what was Reform but the adaptation of
the Constitution of former times to the spirit and intelligence of
those in which we live? The main question now was, the per-
mitting of the present Bill to go into Committee. Why
should Honourable Gentlemen object to the second reading
by long speeches, when.they knew .by the vote of last session that
the Bill mteit go into Cdmmittee 7 The qliestion *as net whey ,
bet this one or that belonged to one party or another, acting
with the Ministry or any other party, the duty of all in that
House was to suit the Constitution to the present changes in the
circumstances of society ; and in the committee the details of
the Bill would be sufficiently attended to.
Colonel WOOD could have no difficulty in voting on this
occasion, and in voting for the second reading. He had voted
for the second readus of the List Bill, and he had dont so under
a sincere wish that that 8111 might Have iinclefgone in Com-
mittee such amendments and alterations as would have qualified
him in voting for the passing of that Bill into a law; but the
Bill had unfortunately, in his opinion, been forced through the
Committee with little or no alterations, and the consequence
of that indiscreet haste had been the losing of the BilL He
hoped that though this Bill had been considerably amended,
yet that as it contained several things objectionable, it would in
Committee be stripped of those objections, which to him it still
seemed liable to. He would state wherein it was in his opinion
still objectionable; anti hoe/ fait. it liad been amended. In the
first place he thought preserving the present numbers of the
House a very great amendment. But though the numbers had
been maintained, the proportion ofthe Members returnedto Parlia-
ment by the three Kingdoms had remained which was a great fault.
The relative proportion of Members from the three kingdoms
were fixed at the most important periods, namely the Union
with. Scotland and the Union with Ireland and the arrange.
ment of those periods ought Mit now to be diliturbed. The
present Bill was based on property and taxation; and he thought
if the relative proportions were taken in reference to taxation,
it would appear that Ireland in particular had any reason to
complain of not having a fair number of representatives,
for that country paid only about five millions of taxes, '
while England and Scotland paid about forty millions. '
He hoped, therefore, that in Committee he would see the pre-
sent number of Irish Members retained. It was decidedly
against the feeling of the English people that the number of
Irish representatives should be ihereased at the expense of the
English. As to the schedules, he found that in schedule A. there
were 56-56 there were in the last schedule A, but then the
present 56 were certainly not precisely the same as the last.
'1 he present schedule was framed on a much juster basis than
the last, though he (the Gallant Colonel) could not well judge
of the basis until the House knew exactly how the particulars
respecting each borough had been drawn up. Lieut. Drum- ,
mond's calculation seemed to be very ingenious, but at present
the merits of it were not known. He could not see what
particular merit there was in the number fifty.six.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who had introduced this
Bill had said it was necessary to draw an arbitrary line, and he
supposed, therefore, it must he taken that, draw this line as it
might, it might produce fifty-six. It might be, also, that this
number of titty-six had been introduced in consequence of what
a Noble Earl was represented to have said in another place,
. which was„ that.- he would- not consent—to—be -a party-
the bringing forward of any measure which was less efficient
84)..
than the last Bill. He hoped, however, that this was not the
cause, else it could not be expected that justice was to be attended
to. With respect to schedule B, that schedule was defective. If
there were any nomination boroughs in it, they ought to be
taken out and put into schedule A and disfranchised at
once; but if not then, the Constitution gave to the
boroughs in that schedule the representatives, and it would
be injustice now to deprive them of one of them.—(Hear.)
In the next place, as regarded corporate bodies, his opinion was
that all corporations should be allowed to retain all the rights and
privileges they now possessed. There was an inconsistency in the
Bill. The Noble Lord whointroduced themeasure had stated, that
where it was his Majesty's pleasure to grant a charter to a new town
the electors were to have new corporate rights. Now if Govern.
ment gave new corporate rights to enfranchised towns, with what
colour of justice could they take away corporate rights in towns
that already existed? Wherever freeholders were in any city
or borough, he hoped that, contrary to the anomaly of the last
Bill, they should, from 40s. and upwards, have a right to vote in
that city or borough. He trusted too, that copyhold rightt of voting
would be adopted. With respect to the 10/ right of voting, there
was an imperfection that it would be necessary to rectify. As it
at present stood, and as he understood it, the man who cccupied
a house valued 101. and paid poors' rates, without any specific
value, was to have that right of voting. Now this would be ex-
tremely inconvenient, it would inundate the country with end-
less questions as to value. From one end of the land to another,
it would be impossible, without endless litigation, to fix the
right, or to produce a real and efficient title of franchise founded
on it. In fact this was the very qualification under which the
right of settlement was granted, but that occasioned such uni-
versal litigation in the Court of Sessions, that that right of ob-
taining a settlement was repealed, and the only mode which was
afterwards fixed was the occupation of a house of 101. rated at
that rent. His opinion, therefore, was that the household quali.
fication should belong to a person holding a 101. house, and rated
at that sum. By this means all the questions of registry would
be settled, and the country would not be inundated by travelling
barristers, solicitors, and attornies, and the whole train of others
whom it would be disagreeable to mention. He had one consi-
deration to suggest to the Noble Lord. He trusted, if that Noble
Lord was of opinion that this registration was of great importance,
if his object could not well be gained without it, that the Bill
should be divided, and that the registry clauses should be sub..
mitted apart ; they might then stand or fall by their own merit.
Why should such complicated clauses, whose importance and
necessity he very much doubted, be dragged through this and
the other House at the heels of the Reform Bill. So much was
lie of this opinion that he almost felt it to be his duty to give
notice of a motion upon the subject in Committee ; but he was
unwilling to do so lest he should be charged with interposing a
barrier to the progress of the Bill, merely for the sake of delay.
He stated this, however, most conscientiously, and with a view
to the due construction of the Bill. He certainly would vote for
the second reading of the measure, and he hoped that in a Com-
mittee it would undergo such amendments as would not only
pass in that House, but would ensure a favourable recep.
Lion for it in the other branch of the Legislature. He was
however, certainly anxious that, amended and stripped of its
objectionable qualities, it should be passed into a law. But it
would be much better that each party should make some con-
cession—concession should not all come from one quarter. But
if each party hereand elsewhere conceded a little, the question
would no doubt speedily and satisfactorily to the country be ami-
cably adjusted.—(Hear.) ,
Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, the necessity for any 1
measure of Reform rested on the state of the constituency of
that House, and never since the Revolution had its constituency
stood on socontracted a basis. So far from having increased in
proportion to the wealth and intelligence of the country, it had
most materially since 1688 been narrowed and contracted. The
admission of great towns to a share in the representation was
strictl v constitutional, while the question of disfranchisement
was not new to the Constitution. There were now eighty places
in this country which had once returned Members to that House,
which did not now enjoy that right. As to the household
constituency he had his doubts however whether the 101. qualifi-
cation was sufficiently high in large towns. As to the advantages
which would be derived from such a measure of Reform to the
people at large, he was not so sanguine in his expectations as to
say that an increase of labour or of wages would perhaps be the
result, but the great besetting sin of all Governments, whether
Whig or Tory, a too liberal handling of public money, would by
that means be prevented from occurring; and upon the important
questions to be brought forward before the House, the East India
monopoly, the Bank Charter, and many other questions, the
people would have their own representatives to determine them,
and if they relinquished their duty, or betrayed their trust, they
would closely and vigilantly be watched, so that benefit by that
means would accrue to the country.
Colonel SIBTHORPE rose for the purpose of opposing the se-
cond reading of the Bill. In doing so the Gallant Colonel ob-
served that they were now called upon to come to a decision on
a measure which had been introduced in a very imperfect state-
ment by the Noble Lord opposite only on Monday last,-on which
depended the security and welfare of the country at large. The
Hon. Member for Cane had told the House yesterday, that there
danger in
outinh astY measures, and that his Majesty's Mi-
nistersgreat defects in the former measure; but
in his opinion, if ever there was a measure brought forward in
haste, and which required great deliberation, it was the present
wasgreahtadd
one. Though he was one that was not opposed to all Reform,
—though he saw no necessity for it, yet until he saw such
measure recommended by Ministers as would give a safe
and salutary Reform, he should fearlessly in his place give his
decided opposition to all measures. No person would have felt
more grateful than himself to have seen his Majesty's Ministers
introduce that species of Reforni to which he could have given
his conscientious vote. With regard, however, to the present
Bill, he was ready to admit every tittle that was given should be
received with candour; but to his mind, notwithstanding all the
improvements that had been talked of, there still remained in
the Bill those exceptionable clauses which he could not stomach,
for if he did he felt certain he shonld be sick at heart. The 101,
clause appeared to him neither more nor less than one of
the most unjust he had ever beheld, for he felt confident it would
operate so partially one way, and be so binding another, that
neither justice nor security could have been taken into consi-
deration in the framing of it. Much had been said of the al-
terations in schedules A and*B. What had been done in those
schedules appeared to him like a little changing sloes and back
again, but still there remained those sweeping enactments which
he could never countenance. As to the alterations in schedule
B, he agreed with an Honourable Member who addressed the
House last night, that the Ministry might almost as well have
done away with that schedule altogether. Another objectionable
point was the division of counties. The perpetuity of resident
freemen, lie admitted, was desirable, but no thanks were due
to his Majesty's Ministers for that, it was but an act of
strict justice to continue it to them, and a very great robbery
to take it from them. It had beensiven as a sort of sugar-plum,or
cOmposing'draught, by which Ministers hoped to make theirpeace
with those who, by the last Bill, they intended to rob. He wished

r the f oble liclfcl's opposite (Lord J. Russell's) attention to the
next point he should advert to, minlelyi with regard to the right
of voting in counties corporate. When he looked at the present
Bill he found many cities, which were counties of themselves,
omitted, such as Canterbury, Exeter, Haverford West, Lich.
field, Nottingham, and Norwich ; he wished, therefore, to
now what, sort of voting they were to have, whether they were
know what sort of voting they were to have, whether they were
d eote for the:town or the county ?
Lord JOHN. RtAsrui risked Whether the Gallant Colonel
wished him to answer that question novi
Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that he did not wish it an-
Swered.now, but he knew many Members who were under the
same difficulty ag: himself in making out the meaning of the
present Bill, which , he believed nobody could understand.--
(Hear, hear.) He was glad however to find that the farmer
of fifty pounds a year was at last to have some little voice
in the representation of the county in the HouSC of Commons.
There was another part of the Bill of last session, which he
(Colonel Sibthorpe) was glad to see his Majesty's Ministers
had thought was more honoured in the breach than in the
observance. He alluded to that part of the present Bill which
said there should be no diminution in the number of Members
of that House. Had it been so, he would have considered it a
itiott unttise and impolitic measure; for he had often seen most
important business transacted in that , Thuse, when it would
have been difficult to have counted 30 Members present; indeed
he might almost say fifteen. For that part of the present
measure he gave his thanks to the advisers of his Majesty. He
Could not let the present opportunity pass without stating his
opinion 'on the county. representation. He considered that it
was -distributed:Jnost impartially. There was the -consistlw
he resided, and for whose interests he felt deeply, a
county of upwards of one of,acres, and which contained
b aoo,odo inhabitants, was allowed illy one ifierE Member than
the comparatively insignificant city and county of Durham.—
There was also the flourishing and improving town of Grimsby,
it was to be shorn of one of its Members, and for what reason ?
The reason given on the discussion of the last Bill was that
its population fell short of the number of four thousand,
but what was the fact now ? By the late population
returns it appeared that it now far exceeded that number, but
still its Member. was not, to be restored. He considered that his
Majesty's Ministeri had hastily brought .forward this measure
before they had had sufficient information, in ortier .to keep
themselves in place. No doubt it was a most unpleasing duty
for a man to say, I am not able to fill the situation which I hold,
but he considered that if the present Ministry had retired as they
ought to have done, they would have deserved well of their
country.

Mr. SLANEY would not trespass long upon the time and at-
tention of the House, but he could not give a silent vote upon a
question of such importance, and when the interests of a large
proptirtion of the people were at stake. He was not one who
was bound to any party by interest—his opillibn was rnfettered.
He considered if ever there was a time when conciliation to the
people was necessary, the present was that time. Reform had
been called for with a loud voice from every part of the country,
and his Majesty's Ministers in obedience to that call had brought
forward a measure which would give the people those rights
to which they were entitled, and of which they had been
so long deprived, and at the same time deprived no
one tit anythifig to Which they had a right to possess.
His Majesty's Ministers, while they had liter' tffixleus to retain
the great principles of the lain measure, had shewn a most laud-
able desire to conciliate the Hon. Members opposite who were
opposed to the measure. This would also shew Hon. Mem-
bers that the Bill ought to go into Committee, when they
might propose any amendment which in their opinion
would improve the measure. The question now was, not only
in that House, but throughout the country, whether a great
measure of Reform was not necessary. This was a question
which had been answered ifs the affirmative by the united voice
of the people. He would consider that those who Voted against
theßill this night, voted against the wishes of nine-tenths of those
whom they ought to represent. If he were allowed he would
state a few facts which showed the absolute necessity of a change
in the representation. Seventy years ago the agricultural.popu-
lation was two to one to the manufacturing. Twenty years ago
they were equal, and now the manufacturing population was more
than as two to one to them that are engaged in agriculture. Still,
while all these changes were going forward, none took place in
the representation of these interests. He would state one other
fact which was proved by the papers on the table of the House,.
from these papers it appeared that 38 of the boroughs which
were placed in schedule A paid in taxes only 10e/. each, while
38 of those towns which were to have representatives paid
to the comparative enormous amount of 26,0004 It
was but just as well, as politic, to give to these large towns
what they ardently desired. It had been said that they were
virtually represented, but that was an argument which no sen.
sible man could honestly support. There was another reason
why representation ought to beconceded to these large towns. It
was well known that the population in these towns were engaged
in trades which were liable to great fluctuations, and of course
their interests requiredvigilantattention,which could only begiven
by their having representatives in that House for themselves.
He asked, would it not be an advantage to such great towns as
Manchester, Sheffield, and Birmingham to have representatives
in that House, to state the causes of their distress, and to propose
some remedy for them. Some distress arose from causes over
which the Government had no controul, which was an addi.
tional reason why they should have representatives who would
be enabled to point out to them that the Government were not
in fault, and were not the cause of their distress. Those per.
sons would then bear with patience the evils which they
knew could not be remedied • but at present there were persons
be_ Sound who told, timilro thot-ali -the distress-arose `from''
the measures pursued by Government. He felt convinced
that many of the dioturbaneeS that prevailed occa.
sionally in some of the manufacturing districts, would be
either wholly prevented in future, or much lessened if those
great bodies had representatives in that House. He asked was it not
a matter of justice, policy, and experience, that the great cotton
and manufacturing districts should have representatives? It might
be said that although they had no direct representatives, yet that
they were indirectly represented by Members for other places.—
(Hear.) It was true that many gentlemen might attend
to the causes of distress that prevailed in those districts,
but would they be believed, would any Hon. Member
for Old Sarum, Gatton, or any other close borough, though he
might speak with the tongue of an angel, be believed ? Those
Members were, doubtless, men of talent and intelligence ;
was known
known that they had no constituents
Looking at the question in which-
buul
et y whilewonld
n it
not
be
ever way he could, he felt it to be one of the deepest concern to
themselves and their posterity. There were a million of persons
engaged in the cotton trade, giving a property in the land to the
amount of 30 millions a year. Ought they not to be represented
in that House ? Should any reasonable proposition be made in
the Committee, let it come from whatever quarter it would, if
it appeared to him to be any thing like an improvement upon
the Bill he would give it his support, for all he wished was to
make it such a Bill as would fully satisfy the people. There
were eight representatives given to the districts engaged in the
cotton trade; three to the different metal trades of Binning-
ham, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, ; three to the woollen.
manufacturers, one to the Potteries (a trade employing an im-
mense number of people, originally created by a single family, and
now exporting to the amount of two millions a year) one to the
carpet manufactures; three to the shipping interest, and a cer-
tain number to places in which great wealth had accumulated by
the industry of individuals. Now he had not heard any objection
to those places, but the objection was to the disfranchisement of
close boroughs. The people, however, would not be satisfied
till the representation of those boroughs was destroyed. So
long as the people saw that those borough representatives
spoke only the opinions and wishes of their proprietors,
there would be no peace or tranquillity. He implored the House
to abstain from that violence in discussion, which had marked
the proceedings of last session, and to consider Calmly and deli.
berately what they should best with the Bill now before them,
and with the people demanding it. His deep conviction was,
that unless the question was settled, and that speedily, the
calm, and industrious state, which they
people would have their nature and character changed
should they get into a state of excitement
calmed, so long as the question on
'eathseiliyr minds remained unsettled. - (Hear.)
Members rose to address the House, but the
Mr. CUST, who complained of the situation in which the
borough of Lostwithiel was placed in the new Bill, and wished
the Noble Lord to give him some explanation of it for the infor-
mation of his constituents. He felt gratified that the rights of
the freemen had been looked to,and was gladto see other alterations.
whichStbef leoAefemoyabr ea atethtaul that
a possessed,l
etmtdyd opnhl
e dzeeatdoebls en
A:"
The present was indeed a troublesome season, and there was, he
feared, but one step between the changes that were now proposed
if they were granted, and the destruction of the country; he
hoped, therefore, that House would not willingly accede to the
second reading of the Bill.
Sir JOHN BURKE looked upon the machinery of the Bill as
much improved through all its stages ; it had at last gained so
much, that if a division were now to take place, there would,
in riddition to those who had previously supported it, be a great
accession to the number of its friends. Many had been con.
verted, and had adopted the opinion of his Majesty's Ministers.
Many Anti-Reformers had changed their opinions, and had be-
come friendly to the Bill, but none that had formerly supported
it would be found now to relinquish it. They had been taunted
with not having sufficiently debated the question, but surely after
the late discussion that objection could no longer be urged.
While he was prepared to give his most cordial support to the
English Bill, he was yet prepared to object to the Ministerial
measure of Reform that had been proposed for Ireland. He
would indeed, at the proper time, give notice of a Motion for
for the purpose of having the Scotch and Irishßills read a second
time before going into a Committee on the English Bill. His
reason for this was that upon every principle of justice there
ought to be an addition to the Members for Ireland. The case of
Ireland, by means of this motion, would be fairly brought before
the House, and if too many Members were found to be given to
the metropolitan towns, it would be competent for the Committee
to determine how tar Ireland might be benefitted by them. He
was prepared to show that whether considered according to
population, or extent, or property, Ireland had not any thing
like her due proportionate share in the representation. In return
for the support which he should give to the English Bill, he hoped
that Members would enter upon the Irish Bill with the same zeal,
candour and impartiality which the Irish Members had already
bestowed on the English Bill.
Mr. BARING WALL having been an opponent of the last
Bill would continue to oppose the present, because in all es-
sential points it was its counterpart. There was no 'person
who felt more strongly than he did, the awful situation
in which the country was placed, and who felt more
deeply than he did, the absolute necessity that something
in the way of conciliation should be done. The Hon. Member
thought it most important to state, that this Bill was the Bill
belonging to Government, and not of theirs (the Hon. Gentle-
man on the Opposition side). They had nothing to do
with the responsibility of it, and he could not allow the Members
of the present Government to say they had made alterations, and
that those alterations were concessions to the opposers of the Bill.
They were no concessions at all to them—they were con-
cessions to reason and justice. He was, however,
ready to admit that most of the alterations of this
Bill might be colizitiered as amendments. The sche-
dule A had been taken upon a new basis.—(Hear, hear.)
Little time had been given for Honourable Members to
reflect upon whether that basis was one on which it
be esxbhpeduotuldiheenttahotoduigshfragt rontchuhenisdHinogausessechloiue+uhlltee
tobohef
avdeaisgleedamne-
ucwhpooi rmaet
to consider before they were called upon to approve or
disapprove of that schedule—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition)
He thought there were many reasons which ought to rave in-
duced the Government to make more concessions than they
had done in the measure which they already had just
brought forward. He could not but call upon his Majesty's
Ministers to recollect that since Parliament had last
met the voice of the House of Lords had been against
them. He was sure the Members of his Majesty's Government
would be the last persons in the, world to assert that there
was no property, no talent, no right in the House of Lords
to be regard upon a great and important question like
the present--(Loud cries of .. Hear.") He called upon the
Government to recnllect that not only had the House of Lords
declared against them but that the Church had declared
against them. And he would say when 'he heard arguments
raised concerning the interestedness of that great and learned
body that the House ought never to forget the important truth

that the Church owed almost the whole' tit the patronage
it enjoyed to the Lord Chancellor and the Governmerif..-.4Loud
cheers.) He thought likewise, that the very circumstafice
of his Ilajesty's Government having proposed amendments
in thg Bill; it WO of figt proved to the House that the measure
which they had L+efote Propesed Was not a perfect measure;
and that this was a reason ti.)* They should not now
come forward, and again say they Woriki stand, by the Bill, the
whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. He teloicea, in' the altered
tone of the supporters of this Bill, though fie Coit riot
admit there was any alteration' in 'the language used 1 the
Minister& 'l)te Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had begged
the House to reallet't .that this was was no party measure. He
entirely concurred with 'het, Honourable Member in that
sentiment and recommendation. Pe recollected also that
the Hon. Member for Liverpool had said thtt th 4 house was
not a talisman of truth, but he sometimes said one tlitri hi it and
sometimes another, when he (Mr. W.) recollected that eeiifle.
men,when they went into the country to meet their constituents
would have to depend more upon the middling class of society
for their return than they hat" e'er before done, he was not sur-
prised
to hear it said that the lanear of Hon. Gentlemen
in that House should not always be the sathtrAn the House.
For his own part he must say a speech less Calculated
to support the provisions of the Bill now under CCri-
seleration than the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, he had
never heard delivered ; and he had no doubt that that
Honourable Itlentbet• would be found voting on his (the
Opposition) side of the Honer& He inferred from that
Hon. Member's speech also, and speak'ng sever the Treasury
it was to .be supposed that speee.li halt upon au- •
thority, that the metropolitan Members in faVoUr of the
measure would not be found to be sustained. With regard to
the nomination boroughs, certainly public opinion had been, so
strongly expressed against them, had brought forward a measure
so extensive ts to inlltnle those nomination boroughs, he for
one thought it would Ile letter to give them all up to-
gether than to give them up by . halves. He there-
fore was prepared to support the disfianettislng schedule,
to the extent to which Government proposed to carry that ache.
dule, provided upon examination it was flund to be a far and
real one.—(Hear, hear, hear, and loud cheering.) He was
glad to hear what an Honourable and Gallant Friend had
observed repecting the borough of Lostwithiel. He thought it
a piece of gross negligence on the part of the Ministers that
they should comd down and state that the borough of Lostwithiel
was in schedule B, and that on the very night after that state-
ment was made, the Bill itself should inform the House that
Lostwithiel was in schedule .A.,--(Hear, hear. hear.) Were
people's feelings, or were their pia tights arid privileges to be
trifled with in this way! Down went the poet to Lostwithiel on
the night on which the measure was brought in, and informed
the inhabitants that the borough of Lostwithiel was safe,
the Reform Bill was immediately popular there, and, in all pro-
bability, the healths of his Majesty's Ministers were freely drank
on that night.—(l-lear, hear, and laughter.) Next day's post
took them the finings that I:ortwithel was placed in schedule
A. then what was the time ? Probably tqe Member of
his Majesty's Ministerf were burnt in effigy, and he was
not sure that the yeomanry might not very soon have to
be called out to quell disturbances in that part of Corn.
wall.—(Hear.) With respect to schedule B, that schedule
was not only inexpedient but unpopular. He believed that the
only part of the Bill which was popular throughout the country
was the extinction of the nomination boroughs, and the extention
of the electivefrauchise.Cheers.) To schedule A. he (Mr, W.)
had certainly become a converti—(Hear, hear, hear.) A
convert he could hardly call himself, 'for his opinions
remained the same, but a convert to that schedule on account
of the alarming state of the counfry. It was the fashion in
the Government side of the House to claim attachnient to the
people; but he begged to observe, that he was as much attached
to the rights and paivilega of the people as well as to
the principles of the Crown, as any man in that House.
All he disliked Was the noisy factious demagogues, which ex-
cited and aggravated the country. He felt glad at seeing
a bow in schedule B with which he had been long con-
nected, at the same time he would not allow the Govern.
ment to have credit for concession. If they were to have
concessions, those concessions would have to be dated from this
evening, because the Bill on the table was the Bill to which
Government was pledged, and the House had nothing what-
ever to do With the old 'Bill. With respect to the situation of
the different boroughs, though he wasunwilling fo hazard an
opinion at present, if the adjustment of the belance in
the old Bill was right, it followed that that adjustment
must be however wrong now ; and he therefore wished to
hear some explanation upon this either from the Mem-
bers of the Crown, of from some of the supporters that they
might be then and there pruned down to the opinions which
they thought proper to advocate. He could not help re-
garding this as a very great and important question, and that
whatever the result of the deliberations of the House upon
it might b_ ,e it would be proved to be so throughout thy
country. He knew not whether he spoke the opinions
of his constituents or not, but his opinion was that Government
had done perfectly right in not giving more representatives.
to Ireland, but he weut so far as to say that he thought it
a positive evil that any alteration in the representative
Members of Ireland should have been made at aIL No new
interests in commercial towns had arisen in Ireland to justify the
increase of the representative Membes of that country; and the
argument as to population would cot hold. In the next place'
he had to otter his tribute of approbation of the conduct
of the Gentleman Commissioners who had been appointed by
Government. He knew not whether most to admire their zeal
-theirtnastrigexpeditlon with which thi•Yheid despatched business.
The Noble Lord I(the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had last
night alluded to a passage in Lord Clarendon's history of the
Rebellion, and as some parts of it referred very closely
to what was passing at the present moment, with the
permission
issclioanreio,Sonthesalldo, he should
ng
kof reade stotmme.e‘ Tiger aiehlasegoitr;
that there were men of great parts, and unspeakable learning,
and then he said in auother part, the Government was
in the hands of men who were only interested in doing
good for themselves, and cared nothing for doing good for the
people. He said that, with respect to the people, there
wasthe same restlessness of disposition as there existed at the
present moment—the same tone of innovation—the same calling
for disolutien of Parliament—the same feeling against the
church, and the same cry of " Down the Bishops,"
following in every particular what was going on in
the present day, even to the more trivial points—the analogy
held good. The Lords could not go down to the House
without meeting with the grossest insults; they were fol.
lowed by the mob, calling them "rotten-hearted Lords;"
and what was most extraordinary, there were at that time
Black Lists—(whether in red and white he could not say)—
hawked about in every alley, and posted against every wall,
in the city of London. With respect to Ireland there was a great
similarity at the present time. She was termed " a gulph to
swallow, a sponge to draw ;" for after Lord Clarendon
had referred to all this, and at the conclusion of these
statements he draws the attention of the reader thus, he says
that after the passing of the attainder, and the settlement of the
Parliament, the public mind, became " mavellously calm and
composed."—(Loud cheering.) He, the Honourable Member,
had no doubt that after the passing of the psesent Reform
Bill the minds of the people would become " marvellously
calm and composed—'Loud cheering)—but it must be remem-
bered that there would follow that dreadful re-action that would
succeed to disappointment. When the House of Lords was
abolished, the Church went to the ground, and the King
was assassinated. He (Mr. Baringwall) did by no means
envied the feelings of that individual, who after having
read the details of that book could come to the discus-
sion of a question like the present without fear and trein-
bling.—(Loud cheering, and cries of" Hear.") The incapacity of
his Majesty's Government became every day more and more
apparent. Who would be the parties he would ask, who would
be benefited by this measure ? Not those who were now
so loudly clamouring for the passing of the Bill. He did not
wish to speak with the slightest disrespect of any man—he
was besides by far too old a courtier, and much too young a man
to speak with disrespect of the party who would succeed, but he
would say that if the Whigs would only listen to the voice
of reason, and agree to adopt the modifications of the
Bill, which we on this side of the House are willing
to propose. No man could hesitate to say that the peace of
the country would be insured, and the Ministry would gather
strength. The Hon. Member sat down amidst loud cheers, with
stating that he should vote against the second reading of the Bili.
Mr. CRESSETT PELHAM concurred entirely with the sen-
timents of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and as
he conscientiously believed that the Bill would not be attended
with those beneficial results which were anticipated, he should
vote against its second reading.
Lord W. LENNOX said the people of England felt that they
had not been properly represented, and nowdemanded thas share
in the representation which was withheld from them. They
did not claim it as a matter of expediency or policy, but as a
right due to them. He highly approved of the alterations made
in the Bill, and denied that they were in accordance with the
opinions entertained by Hon. Members opposite, during the dis-
cussion of last session.

Mr. PRAED had been waiting with much anxiety to hear
from the opposite side of the House something to which it would
be worth a reasonable man's mind to turn his attentiou.—(Loud
cries of hear.) He did not allude to the speeches this evening,
for except the speeches of one ox two Members, on one or two par.
ticular points, the speech delived by his Hon. Frind (Mr. C.)
last night had been unanswered. Many of the changes made
lin the Bill had been unexplained, although it was the duty
of Minisiers to explain all of them.—(Hear, hear.) All the
material canges were those which had been last session
insisted on by his side of he House, but Ministers claimed the
credit for the introduction. He asked what were those changes ?
One was the test of populationwhich was abandoned, and another
more correct, adopted, That alteration was urged on his side
of the House last session, as was that relatiug to the census, in
taking the population of 1830, in preference to that which was
ten years older.