The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-04 00:00:00

and rival eminences of Highgate and Hampstead, I
s,clusions for courtship and cockneyism, were equally
disregarded. 'Why, too, was unhappy Redd& omitted?
Why was not that affluent and hospita'de vicinity
to return its, demagogue-gendetnati or gentlentin-dema-
gogue.—(Cheers.) It might be reasonable to restore to
Greenwich the representation she formerly possessed ; but
it did not at all follow, that because Guildford was to lose
one, Greenwich should gain two. The people of Eng•
land might exclaim, Vous plaisantez ici (an expression,
by the way, rather more natural to the French ;) but he
could reply, that the present was no subject of joke, but a
very grave and set ions matter of deliberation. Whatever
silence might be obstinately observed on the otl.er side—
however the Noble Lord might submit to a sort of volun-
tary lock jaw—(Laughter)—the people of England would
expect a justification of the conduct of Ministers, and would
require that the decisions of the House should be founded
at least upon the principles of common honesty. Green
wick had nevertheless been selected for peculiar favour (in
conjunction with Deptford and Lewisham), and perhaps
the next time the Admiralty barge sailed thither, she
would be laden with the precious but prec sious cargo of
two new Members. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
concluded by asserting, that this portion of the Bill was
founded upon no principle meritorious or Parliamentary.
Mr. WEBB (we believe) referred to something that had
fdl'en from Mr. Alderman Wood, and said that his lion.
Colleague had recently been burnt in effigy for the vote
he had given regarding Downton, not by a party of true
and zealous Reformers, but by a body headed by one of
the late Members, who had lost his seat for not voting
with the Right Hon. Member for Queen's County on the
Finance Committee.

Mr. Alderman WOOD explained that he bad not the
slightest intention to cast personal reflections.
. .

Mr. Alderman THONII)SON would not have risen but
for the-now four or five-times repeated remarks of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge, regarding
the conduct of his constituents and himself.—(Hear, hear.)
Those remarks reflected on his character as an independent
Member of that House, and he could no longer preserve
silence. In the face of the whole House be must assert,
that the Hon. and Leaned Member was totally misin-
formed, when he said that he (Mr. Alderman Thompson)
had been summoned before his constituents to answer for
his conduct and to make peace with them, in order that
he might not be compelled to relinquish his seat. He had
heard that a certain number of the Livery were about to
meet at Guildhall for the purpose of considering his con-
duct, which was thought to be at variance witk the sort
of promise he had given. Never had any Member of that
House been more free and unshackled than he had been
throughout the eleven )eirs during which lie had held a
seat there. At the last election, indeed, when the feel.
ings of the people all over the country, and especially in
the city of London, were greatly excited on the subject of
Reform, he was asked by his constituents whether he
would support the Bill which had been introduced by
his Msjesty'a Ministers, in the same way in which he bad
supported it in the preceding Session.—(Hear.) In reply
to that question, he had stated most unequivocally that he
would do so. He was further asked, would he pursue such
a course of conduct as should be best calculated to prevent
the principles of the Bill from being ft ittered away and
impaired ? To that, a'so, he gave his entire acquiescence.
--(Hear.) But he stated at the same time, that if there
were in schedule A, or in schedule B, a borough to
be totally or partially disfranchised, to the partial or total
disfranchisement of which he saw rational objections, he
would reserve to himself the right to resist such parts of
those schedules.—(Hear, hear.) He would appeal to his
Hon. Colleagues if such ha I not been his declaration to his
constituents.—(Hear, hear.) Ile should, therefore, not
allow himself to be told in that Assembly that he was a
disgraced or dishonoured Member of it.—(Cheers.) Look-
ing back over the whole course of his conduct in that
House, he could not recognise an occasion on which it
was possible to presume that he had given a less honour-
able or disinterested vote than the Learne.l Member for
Boroughbridge.—(Much cheering.) On the occasion
which had been so often, and he would add, so unfairly
referred to—(Hear)—he came into the House at the con-
clusion of the debate on the case of Appleby. He was
acquainted with the peculiar circumstances of that town,
and he knew many of the persons who had signed the peti-
tion ; but he confessed he did not know that the object of

the gentlemen with whom he then voted, were so irre-
gular as to get up a debate in the case of every borough,
on the question whether that borough should be defended
by Counsel at the bar of the House.—(Hear.) On con-
sideration, he was convinced that he had acted injudi-
ciously in supporting that motion ; but he was sure it
would be conceded to him, that it was no very rare
occurrence for gentlemen to vote in a division, with-
out having heard the whole debate upon the subject on
which they divided.—(Heir.) lie still thought that it was
his duty to state in that debate what he knew respecting

the parish in which Appleby was situated. He thanked th';
Committee for having heard his explanation with so much
attention.—(Hear.) He did not think that it was alto-
gether liberal on the part of lion. Gentlemen to refer,
night after night, to his conduct in a particular instance.
—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that, after the explanation
which he had made, his feelings would not again be as-
sailed by such dissertations us the Learned Member for
Boroughbridge had that evening indulged in.—(Hear,
hear.) He would now only detain the Committee by one
remark upon the question which had been asked by the
Hon. and Learned Member—namely, why it was that
Greenwich and Deptford were to have representatives,
whilst they were refused to Chelsea? Now, he (Mr. Al-
derman Thompson) thought that he could give a better
reason for the distinction than that which the Learned
Member had given as the answer to his own question.—
(Hear.) It was this—that there were in those places a
great many extensive ship-yards and manufacturing houses,
and that the population was revectable, important, and
wealthy.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir C. 'WETHERELL sail that it was not he, but
the Hon. Alderman behind him (Alderman Wood), who
had referred to the debate upon Appleby. .
Mr. Alderman WOOD gave a flat and distinct contra-

diction to the statement of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Boroughbridge.—(Repeated shouts of laughter.)
The debate upon Appleby had been referred to by the
Right Hon. Member for Montgomery.—(War.)
Mr. A. BARING said, that when the Hon. Alderman
had pledged himself to support the Ministers and their
Bill, it was scarcely to ha supposed that he was at liberty
to oppose particular parts of the measure. The Worthy
Alderman had, in giving that pledge, distinctly admitted
the principle that representatives ought to be pledged to
take the opinions of their constituents respecting each par-
ticular vote which they should give.—(Cheers.) He re-
ferred to time reproof given to Sir Robert Wilson by his
constituents as another instance of the inconvenience of
the principle, and of the total abstraction of the indepen-
dence of Members, to which the recognition of it would
lead.—(Cheers.) Within the last day or two a threat of
of a meeting in the city had been held as a rod in terroreni
over the House.—(Cheers.) It was a clear indication
of the sort of influence which would be attempted to be
exercised over that House by popular bodies out of doors,
when they should come into more immediate and sensitive

communication with the Members.—(Hear, and question.:
The real question for the consideration of the House al
present was, not merely whether a single place—Deptford

Greenwich, or WI4OIW cell-should be allowed to have two re.

presentatives, hut whether the extensive change of the
franchise should take place which was contemplated by
the whole clause.—(Hear.) When gentlemen talked of
his and other gentlemen impeding the progress of this im-
portant Bill by prolonged and uncalled-for discussion, it
ought to be remembered, that the more important were
those provisions, the more necessary it was that they
should he carefully looked into.—(Question, question.)
He complained of the attempts that were made to stifle
discussion upon questions in which the peace, happiness,
and tranquillity of the country were deeply coiicerned.—
(Question, question.) Much objection had been made to
same observations of his on the preceding evening respect-
ing the country gentlemen in the House. Now, he had
no intention of attributing any want of ability to those
Nlembcra, who had frequently shown both ability and in-
dustry on occasions on which their interests were to he de-
fended, as on the question of the corn laws.—(Hear.)
All he meant to say was, that they had a natural tend-
ency to quiet and peaceful habits. (The increasing noise
in the llouse prevented us from hearing distinctly the
Hon, Gentleman's reference to.
that country gentle-
Ole opinions of some
than other people.) He would again assure those gentle-
Faleesnyhe:eVrlietessrlaiittis';';e,PPac't'ittl own,lesa aptitude for business
s.of his
men, that ii they thought that their neighbours would sup-
port them against the sort of persons who would Le t•e-
turned by those suburban districts, they weal 4
selves sadly mistaken.—(Ores',iea,, iiuestion.) They
were told that tivi piactia were inhabited by persons of
prc.-p;:,rty. But he would ask, what weight would persons
of property have in the representation, when the prin-
ciple of the Bill went nearly to, universal stqrage ?a,
(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, ! would ask what
influence bad the ‘Wnle'ne'cl, 'f
—(Hear, hear.) Did not
operty in Westminster
°tlvtec'Sgtehnitlee Clineeenti7 to; that city
yote one way, and the mass of the elec-
tor? quite the other Hear, hear.) He hoped his Hon.
Frl,ard opposite would not be offended when he asked what
had the people of property in Westminster to do with the
oaatiQa of the present Members?..--Much noise oA th?,

h~?h

House, " Question!" &c. ) Gentlemen opposite
:narshalled their votes as to prevent any inroad upon
Bill.—(Cheers.) It was not a all upon which the
dom of Parliament could be brought to bear.—(Cie
The subjects comprehended in that Bill would ationi
ticient matter for a dozen Bills. —(Loud and rePt
cheers.) He was not in the secrets of the Hon. G 6
men opposite ; but he understooil that at a meeting
they had held a few days ago, the country gentlemen
consented to forego their own opinions, and to sad
their own interests and those of their constituents In,
sake of the Bill.—(Cheers, and " No, no!")
Committee ought to bear in mind, that in agreeing!'
clause before them, they not only gave representstif
suburb in districts, but they gave the francbi
ten-pound freeholders, and that that part of tb'
brought clown the representation as low as his
Friend opposite wished—that is, to the verge of
perism—to the point at which property begins.—(o
and cries of " Question !") It was to be remenib
that if they granted too little, it would still be posed
grant mire ; but if they now granted too much, it
he impossible to go back. If they fixed the francbi
30/., they might reduce it after to 20/. If—(Loud
log, which prevented us from hearing the conclusion I
sentence.) He would not object to giving represent;
to districts in which—(Yawns, and cries of " obi
hear, hear.) He reminded the Committee of the pt'
state of the French Legislature, and which was at
moment sitting under the controul of clubs, by cv
they were surrounded on every side.—(Cheers.) lid
sidered that clause of enfranchisement quite as serioe
its probable consequences as schedule A, because it
the franchise, as the latter scLedul, took it away, wit
the slightest necessity.—(Cheers.) . The Noble Lod,
posite had said that there was no danger to
hended from popular assemblies. But it was a fact',
on Monday last there was assembled in the neighbour
of the city a body of twenty-five or thirty thousand
evidently " looking out to see if the time was rir.
them to carry their plans of mischief into execuo'
What would be the constitution of that House when
representation should be in the hands of such 'iodic'
(Cheers, and oh, oh.) When this Bill should be cii!

into effect, the people would soon see that if their ill
had been allowed—(Cries of oh, oh, cheers, and log'
amidst which the conclusion of the speech was lost.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE had always thought it uecessall
the discussions upon this Bill, that the friends of gels
being sincere, as he was, ought not to take up the
the House by answering arguments which had been b
ten thousand times refuted, and in discussing print
which had been already completely settled.—(Ch'"
Nor would he then take the liberty to say a word,
that his excellent Friend opposite had thought fit 11'
the city of Westminster under his especial protection•
that gentleman had been so long one of the greatest
ments of that city, he (Mr. Hobhouce) wondered tie
had not thought fit to pay more attention to the natn
its franchise, before he made it the basis of his argu6

in that House. The Hon. Gentleman had said the
night, that the Ministers, in their have of change,
determined to change the representation of Virestnli°
by deluging it with 101. voters. But that gentl
ought to have known that the electors of that city
the payers of scot and lot.—(Cheers.) That Bill, 9
front increasing the number of voters, would take
t' e franchise from 15,000 or 18,000 electors.—(CV
Hid he not a right then to complain of his Hon. Ft
far representing the constituency as enlarged, scii,o'
was, in fact, greatly diminished by the Bill ?—(Chr
But that was only one specimen of the correct
in ascertaining facts, which was so much recom,o
by the Honourable Gentleman opposite. But I)!
!lied that it was by such comparatively palte)j
trumpery statements the Bill was to be judr
nor was it with their refutation he would.
cupy the Committee.—(Cheers.) The charge
the Hon. Gentleman made against the great body trj
people in this country, that they had sinister objev
favouring the Bill, that they were ready, and °I
watch, and that if you gave them any play whateve
would destroy the Constitution—(Cheers)—he del3i
(Cheers)— and he would assert, that make the limit
franchise where they might, the people of this 0$
had no such wish, and had shown no such inclinAtici
(Cheer,.) He had always shown respect to his
Friend, but he must then complain of the vein in `it,
,
on that and on many other occasions during the tit.,
sions of the Bill, he had asserted that if the House,
to listen to the people of this country, there would
chance of the voice of reason being attended to irj,
House. What his Hon. Friend called the voice of re;

he (Mr. H.) would presume to call the supge,til
folly and self-interest.—(Cheers.) His Hon. Frien
said much about what might happen, but he (Mr,'
would appeal to their experience of what had huff

and he would had there ever been a body 0
who exhibited more fatuity than had been sh°'
former Houses of Commons ?—(Cheers.) The
facts which the Hun. 'Member for Camelford col?

proofs that the system had worked well, he (3111 i
would take as proofs that it bad worked very 14
(Cheers.) When he differed, therefore, so mucb,
Hon. Gentlemen opposite upon first principles, wal
idle to waste in those discussions the time of the
and of the country ; that time, too, which, as the ene'
well knew, they could never look for again?—(C.
Was it not vain to waste time in discussing Prw,
which, whilst they Were discussing them, might lit
for ever.—(Cheers.) His Hon. Friend had denialn
the Committee, would they consent that the King
land should be compelled to ask the electors ofi,
minster what men he was to choose for his Min
His (Mr. H.'s) reply was—To be sure,—(Hear,
laugh.) He did not wonder that his Hon. Frietitl,,

Baiing) would not consult them, since that gat'
had shown that he knew very little about
laugh.) But he would assure him, that he (Alr•
house) would as lieve consult them us that body whir
hitherto been consulted.—(Cheers.) The King hBll,

been free to choose his Ministers.—(Cheers.)
always been compelled to ascertain beforehand 'lte
the gentlemen whom he was disposed to take
Counsels could command an adequate number °
base parchment bonds which the Committee b)
hoped, rendered null fur ever.—(Cheers, and latlS,
Were a man of the highest talents in the country, ti
his services to the King in a time of difficulty, 80',
that he thought he could be useful to the state, tb
must inquire, before he could accept the offer, s'i b
that gentleman was supported by this Lord, and ;
Duke? and whether he could command the half,
roughbridge, and dispose of Newark as occasion 104 i
quire?—(Cheers.) Such was the free choice '
King. He was compelled to bow to that
which he himself created.—(Hear, hear, and 4,
If any man present were to lose by that Bill, the I''
for Westminster would lose, as the honour rvhic
had of being freely chosen by the people would atift
be a distinction, but would be shared with theta 0
whole House. A Right lion. Gentleman had said'o
preceding evening, that the proposed enfranchiseOo
r
a measure which must take place, because it was 0
tively called for by the country. But the gentle,'
wrong in supposing that the mere enfranchisement,,R
have satisfied the intelligent mind, and turned I;
determination of the country. Had the King's I‘l!,e
on the contrary, stopped short at the disfrande
without turning to Manchester or Birmingham, the
would not have been contented to wait many yea
0,10
they should demand that other constituency 'l'd
formed to supply the place of the overthrown bor°,
([-Tear, hear.) Some Hon. Gentlemen seemed to or
a matter of complaint that there was in that House PO,O
of the foreign department that had been in the li
some time. Did those lion. Members forget, tl';t
,:e
the whole existence of the late Government, the *be'
for Foreign Affairs was not in that but in %et
House of Parliament ? yet no want of his pret4;2:
for a single moment complained of or felt, since t'
lion. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, 119
generally of the Administration, answered all lia",ht:
specting any department of which the head did la°l',
to be in the House, and, in many instances, 13,01,
questions for Members of the Government wit°o/
to be present in their own proper persons. iot
1'
Friends who sat on the same side of die 0(
he (lid, and who had adopted the resolutio°4/,,
parting the great measure of Reform then under 'l,l.
deration of the House, were taunted with beingoo,
and uulistening majority. Lord North had 0,,y
been reproached fu, falling asleep in his place la too
~
but the answer of the Noble Lord was that he °' tbe!d
to sleep and could not. So it was with their, roe I
called an unlistening majority, and their only olid;„,
Bret was that the appellation was nut truly OP, t
wished sincerely that they Gould avoid liotenil,l44l
that they heard in that House.—(A laugh.)
`with,)
not only reproached with not listening, hut % oofil
plying to the arguments urged from the otbes..cy
were taunted with the brevity and the :201:0 th
speeches, from which it was to be interred t
wised them to address the House more freque_!oilt
greater length ; but when were men of the
deuce found adopting the advice of their adeer-oot
doubt the object of the Anti-Reform Member'a, Ot,l,
Did he himself entertain the same sentiments uhf
H
om oc
Baronet and his friends, he should not atiog
every lair expedient fur the purpose of ete