The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-17 00:00:00

TIIE SUN,

months after that stern experience to pass, a
and they are
not yet prepared with any measure which will insure u
from this result—that twelve months hence this apoeat
should not be again made to us.—(Hear, hear.) I say.
for I am not ashamed to say, that comprehensive mete-
' ures are needed. I caught the epithet from one
second to no one in this House for his administrative
abilities. I shall not forget that the measures which
h tve been suggested to her Majesty's Ministers by so
high an authority have been described as comprehensive;
and I for one declare that any measures which are less
than comprehensive will not satisfy me. But, Sir, if for
a moment, leaving the sentimental view of the question,
we look at the political view of it,—if we feel it to be our
duty on this occasion to endeavour to consider the case of
this almost unprecedented state of affairs with a view to
find out the remedy it requires, it is possible we may be
led to a conclusion very different from that which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his impassioned
harangue, has endeavoured to impress upon the House.
The Hon. Gentleman who spoke a short time ago—l
believe my Hon. Friend the Member for the University
of Dublin—has well reminded you of the ample informa-
tion which this House has long possessed of the state of
Ireland, and of the frequent attempts made to draw its
attention to remedial measures for that condition. He
told you that in the year 1835 you had a Committee
upon that subject, and measures of great importance
were recommended by that Committee—a Committee
which consisted of Irish gentlemen of the highest
character and of all parties, besides English
Members of great standing, and he asked why
were not those recommendations followed ? Why,
Sir, in the year 1835 the Ministers of the Sovereign
were pursuing measures for Ireland of a very different
tone and of a very different character. I need. not
allude again to the appropriation clause, for after the
discussion the other day that subject is perhaps ex-
hausted ; but the year to which my Hon. Friend re-
ferred happened to be the year of that celebrated mea-
sure. Well, in the years 1835 and 1836 you had a
crusade raised against the House of Lords because they
were not doing justice to Ireland, and a repeal of the
union was recommended in consequence of their con-
duct. To-night I am told by the Hon. Member. for
Middlesex that our neglect of these recommendations of
the numerous commissions and of Parliamentary Com-
mittees is a strong argument for a repeal of the union;
yet it is those who uttered the cry for repeal of the
union who are the very persons who have prevented
that remedial policy being carried out which we are
united in now recommending. Well, you went on
year after year recommending mere political expedients
for the state of Ireland. Year after year you were
called upon by a powerful individual to do justice
to Ireland; and the definition of " justice to Ireland"
was assimilating the institutions of the two countries.
Well, you did assimilate the institutions—(Cries of " No,
no"—atal you got a poor-law, of which you now corn-
plain.—(Hear, hear.) Year after year the Government
of the country renewed the tenure of their power by
chuing that cry—(Cheers)—and every attempt to look
the social and material evils of the country in the face.
was decried and neelected in pursuance of a policy of a
totally different character. Even now the lees o
f that
pelicy still appear at a moment when the nation is in a
state of suffering and starvation by the introduction of a
measure for increasing the franchise and improving the
registration of the country—as if it were possible by
factitious measures of reform—as if it were possible by
artificial means to make men sensible of the dignity of
exercising the political franchise.—(Hear, hear.) A
nation that cannot produce men entitled to vote is
unworthy of exercising the suffrage.—(?tear, hear.)
Everyone must feel that at this moment the situation
of Ireland is pressing with respect to circumstances of a
mach more material character than the enjoyment and
exercise of political privileges; but you want the politi-
cal tact to introduce such measures. The consequences of
your policy with respect to Ireland were aggravated and
accelerated, no doubt, by the famine of which we have
heard so much, but it only precipitated a conclusion
which it was impossible to avoid—the universally ac-
knowledged misery of the people. The system of political
agitation by which you attempted to govern that country,
and which you adopted to propitiate a political party in
England, has entirely failed. True, you may say, that
bad it not been for the failure of the potato crop for
more than one year it would not have failed; but the
fact is, that that system had taught the people to rely
on other energies than than their own, and to look for
extraordinary means to support them, to believe that
the Government of the country, relying as they did
upon the power of their leaders, must come forward and
maintain them in the moment of their suffering and de-
pression. That system has failed; and it is in vain to
come forward now with a mock reform policy of in-
creased franchise with any idea of convincing the people
of England, whatever be the political party, that these
are the means to secure the good government of Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.) Well, what is your next measure?
Do you take a lesson from the dire experience of the
past ; and do you at last attempt to grapple with the
great evils which you no longer refuse to acknowledge ?
That is not the course of Governments. The course of
Government is to come forward to acknowledge the
existence of those evils—to virtually acknowledge that
they cannot remedy them ; and to ask the people of
England to supply them with temporary exceptional
means by which they may bolster up a system which
has already broken down under them.—(Hear, hear.)
My first objection to this exceptional vote is, that it re-
lieves the Government from a responsibility which ought
to devolve on them. I feel that this is not an occa-
sion in which we ought to give time to the Government.
They have had sufficient warning in the distress of the
last three years. The very case alluded to by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer of the distress twelve years back
ought to have made the Cabinet feel that they ought
never to meet Parliament again without a measure cal-
culated to control the evils which exist, and to prevent
their recurrence. I say that it was the duty of the Go-
vernment to have brought forward comprehensive mea-
sures.—(Hear.) I use the felicitous epithet of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham.)
I hope he will not desert it.—(Hear, hear.) I say it
was the duty of the Government to have matured mea-
sures respecting the subject of the area of taxation.-
-(Hear, hear,) I say they ought to have been able to
meet the question of arrears of rates, and to have intro-
duced some measure with reference to the land that has
been thrown up. These are what I call statesmanlike
and comprehensive measures.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
But what shall we say to the measure before us as an al-
ternative in lieu of the measure we might have expected?
You acknowledge that it is exceptional. How tempo-
rary it is the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Nlr.
Osborne), who calculated that it would last only a fort-
night, has already informed the House. The Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) has
told the House that a less sum than 500,0001 sterling will
not suffice fur the present year to keep life among the suf-
tering peasantry of the unions. No member of Govern-
ment has denied that calculation; and it would be diffi-
cult for any member of Government to deny the correct-
ness of the estimate, since we have a paper on the table
of the House which shows that a still larger sum is neces-
sary. The other night, when an Honourable Friend of
mine with great ability impressed upon the House
that an estimate of the expenditure ought to be laid
upon the table, we seemed hardly to be aware—the Go-
vernment did not seem to be aware themselves—that the
fatal estimate had already been furnished to us. How
ever, gentlemen can have no difficulty in finding it in
one of the papers before us, which shows that no less a
sum than 592,0001. is the calculated expense of main-
taining the population in the twenty-one suffering unions.
When the Minister, therefore, came forward and argued
the whole case upon a single vote of 50,000/., he was,
unintentionally of course, palming a delusion on the
House and the country—(Hear, hear)—for it would
appear that the discussion will have to be commenced
again in a fortnight, and another vote called for.—(Hear,
hear.) What will be your position at the end of the
year? Will the habits of self-reliance, which you wish
to encourage, be cherished and fostered in that short
time by your systematic doles? Who can flatter him-
self that when the next House of Commons meet at this
time next year the first recommendation of her Ma-
jesty, the first act of the Ministry, will not be another
appeal to the charity of his constituents, unless in the
interim those comprehensive measures recommended by
the Rignt Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon are
introduced? And what chance have you of obtaining
the introduction of those measures if you yield to the
feelings which the Hon. Member fur Cockermouth (Mr.
Horsinan) dilated upon—if -you acknowledge that Ire-
land is to be looked upon as a dying beggar in the street,
and you propose to keep Ireland for a fortnight? What
is your charity to the people of Ireland, and what is
your justice to the people of England?—(Hear, hear.)
There is another point of view in which we ought to
consider this case. We ought to take some moral from
the past. Having entirely failed in the Government of
Ireland by a system of organized political agitation in
alliance with a political party in England we ought to
come forward and tell the people of England that we are
at last alive to our errors, and that we feel that a new
system ought to be established, and a new course of con-
duct pursued —that it is not enough to come forward and
say in the phrases of loose rhetoric that Ireland has un-
fortunately been hitherto the battle-field of party, but
that we shall resolve henceforth that those feuds shall
cease—that those feuds shall not be loitered for the ag-
grandisement of parties in this country—that at this
moment, when the people of Ireland are softened by
affliction, we think that a happy opportunity is afforded
for reconstructing society in that country, and that by
acting in that spirit and on that system we may produce
different results from those which we have hitherto ex-
perienced. But I ask you what chance there is of ob-
taining those results if you follow the policy which her
2:ajesty's Ministers now recommend to you—a policy
which is described as exceptional, when we want a
policy systematic and permanent?—(Cheers.) It ever
there was an occasion when men who rule a great
country should come forward and lead public opinion
to thetruct the public mind, and to lay
.down a broad
firm bests for a great national policy, it is this occa-
sion.—(Hear, hear.) I protest against the whole spirit
of the speech of the Chancellor of the
.Exchequer.—
(Hear, hear.) I felt, that when he was indulging
in an impassioned appeal to our feelings,. there was some-
thing unstatesmanlike and little in the appeal.—(Cheers.)
An embarrassed poor-law guardian might, pt rhaps, have
come forward and used such language, and indulged in
such a vein; but, after the Cabinet Councils which were
field in autumn, I had an idea that at least the subject of
Ireland had bet n well considered, that when we had
heard so much of their good iortune in possessing
.a
Lord-Lieutenant of such remarkable talent and experi-
ence, at least his counsels had reached Downing-street,
and that they would have matured and laid on the table
a measure—aye, a series of measures—(Hear, hear)—
that would at last have raised the condition of Ireland to
a position in which she would no longer be the shame
of Europe and the embarrassment of England.—(Loud
cheers). .1 hope that the House, notwithstanding all
that has been said, and all that has been urged by the
The Government,
N ob
Noble
wr
di l
haslpLulsleedhietfaonreexthtreayoridetitni
af beatify
yt mh iesa svuortee
but my objection to this vote of 50,0001, is that it is- not

an extraordinary but an ordinary measure, a vulgar
measure, a low, mean expedient of a Government who
are unable to cope with the difficulties which they are
obliged to encounter.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord,
however, has said that it is an extraordinary measure,
and that when a house is on fire you must have recourse
to extraordinary measures. Why, Sir, we don't have
recourse to extraordinary measures when our houses are
on fire. We send for the parish engine ;we don't pro-
pose a Committee of inquiry.—(Cheers and laughter.)
- But when the Noble Lord's house is on fire he proposes
a Committee of inquiry.—(Renewed laughter.) That is
not the course which in my opinion ought to be pursued.
Let the responsibility, therefore, rest upon the Cabinet
which proposes such a course. But what I wish to im-
press upon the House of Commons is, that they also have
a responsibility. There hitie been many measures—like
the repeal of the Corn laws, for instance, or the laws
, affecting the Roman Catholics—respecting which men
may concur in the opinions of those who propose them,
and at the same time feel little of the responsibility of the
case. They may feel that years must elapse before
they can be called to account for the policy
they had supported and sanctioned by their votes, that
perhaps they may have ceased to be Members of the
House before the fruits of the measure had excited any
demonstration in the country. But let not Hon. Gen-
tlemen lay the flattering unction to their souls that such
will be the case in the present instance.—(Hear, hear.)
This is a measure the effects of which they must feel and
that speedily. In a very few days, or at most a few
weeks, we may have a fresh appeal made to Parliament,
and Members will have to make a fresh appeal to their
constituents. They may in the present instance allow
the vote to pass in silence, thinking that it is only
50,0001., and that it is to save the lives of 200,000 per-
sons. This delusion may influence them, as it has in-
fluenced the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cocker-
mouth, but when they find that it has saved the lives of
the 200,000 persons tor a fortnight only, and that in the
course of a month a fresh appeal has. been made to their
feelings and their pockets when they see that at
every fresh sacrifice they are only increasing the
evil and getting deeper into the mire, and that
ultimately, after spending half a million, you will be
obliged to face the difficulty which you now wish to
avoid, you may depend upon it that the position of
Members of this House with respect to their con-
stituents
will be anything but a comfortable one, and
that they will not be able to vindicate their vote by say-
ing that they were actuated by sympathy for the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer.—(Hear, hear.) I hope the
House, therefore, will hesitate before they sanction this
vote. I rejoice that it has not been allowed to pass in a
cursory manner. The subject is now fairly before the
country, and slight as the sum appears, the whole ques-
tion of Ireland is bound up with it, and, unless the
House, supported by the country, makes a stand on this
occasion, I see nothing but a future of aggravated
misery for Ireland, and of impending distress even for
England herself.—(Cheers.)
Mr. RICE said, he should not vote for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Stroud, because he thought
things should be called by their right names. There
was already a strong feeling among the people of this
country against the vote, which was most distasteful to
them, and if anything could make it more so, it was to
be told that it was a loan instead of a grant, when they
well knew not one penny of it would they ever get
hack .—(Hear, hear.) Instead of being the first of a
series of similar propositions, ho thought, after the feel-
ing which existed in the country, it would be the last.
Lord C. HAMILTON declared thas he was quite
ready to defend the Irish poor-law if it were under dis-
cussion, but he would not join in the irrelevant observa-
tions which had prevailed during the debate. The Hon.
Member for Buckinghamshire, whose eloquence touched
nothing that it did not adorn, making use of a domestic
simile, said that when a house was on fire we sent for
the fire-engine. Such a course might become the sena-
torial dignity of the Hon. Member, who might wish to
imitate the conduct of the Roman Senate when the Gauls
entered the forum, but he (Lord C. Hamilton) believed,
in such a casualty, the most usual step was to send for
the fire-escape, by which you went down head foremost
from the fourth story.—(A laugh.) He looked upon this
measure as a fire-escape, and much as he disliked the
attitude it compelled him to take, he would adopt it now
as the best suited to the case.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOORE remembered that the Hon. Member for
Middlesex, relying on his own assertions in perfect con -
tentment, declared it would be better for the unfortunate
people to starve and die of famine at once than for them
to depend on the charity of this country. It was quite
possible the Hon. Member had dined so well he could not
conceived what death by starvation was ; but he knew
nothing of the Hon. Mmber which could induce iaim to
think if he (Mr. Osborne) were in the same position his
views would not be greatly modified.
Mr. OSBORNE—I said for a fortnight.
Mr. MOORE—WeII that made no difference ; the
pauper was supported day by day. The question for the
House was not whether it would be better for those
people to live or die, but whether it would be creditable
for this great and civilized country to allow thousands
of human beings to die of famine at their very thresh-
hold. The Hon. Member for Buckingham made it a
party question ; he did not care so much as to whether
100,000 Irishmen should die or live if he could but attack
the Government. Were these men to be starved because
the Government was not prepared with what the Hon.
Member thought a comprehensive measure ; or would
he vote a grant which was bad in principle on the faith
of their promises and protestations as to future mea-
sures? For his own part he could not think that a
squabble over the rations of starving men afforded an
auspicious opening of the Parliamentary campaign, or
was a very favourable omen of its success.—(Hear.)
Mr. P. WOOD said, he believed that small as was the
amount of the grant, it might be pregnant with most.
fatal consequences to Ireland. England and Scotland
had not acquired their social position by such grants as
these ; but by the exercise of honest, si,renuous indus-
try. 'There were a number of unions in Ireland where
the landlords had most nobly performed their duty, but
if this grant once passed they would at once destroy their
energy, and, instead of having 100,000 men, they would
have 400,000 men to feed next month.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not think so ill of the Irish gentry, many
of whom had great wealth, or the people of England,
as to believe that extreme cases, where there was
danger of starvation, would not be provided for. A re-
port had been laid on the table of the House from Cap-
tain Hamilton, on the state of the Ballina union, to in-
duce
them to vote this grant. It had had upon him a
precisely opposite effect. Captain Hamilton stated
that before next harvest time there would be 27,000 re-
quiring relief in tht‘t union, of whom 4,300 were able-
bodied men, whose families amounted to 14,000; and of
these able-bodied poor he declared that, with some ex-
ceptions, they were lazily inclined, and would do nothing
for themselves as long as they could get others to do it
for them.—(Hear.) Now, he would ask the House, was
it to serve those able-bodied men, who would "do as
little as possible," that they were to vote this grant?—
(Hear.) The curse of Ireland was reliance on England.
It was more than a century ago since Bishop Berkeley
had published his " Queries," among which there were
three especially significant at the present day—" When
shall we be able to teach our people of Ireland to live on
their own industry?" "To whom does the fable of Her-
cules and the waggoner apply as it does to the people of
Ireland ?" and, " Whose fault, then, is it if the poor of
Ireland remain poor?"—(Hear.)
Colonel DUNNE deprecated the use of such expres-
sions as had fallen from the Hon. Member for Cocker
mouth (Mr. Horsman), that he would give this grant as
ho would alms to a beggar in the street. It was a case
of absolute necessity ; the people must die if no interpo-
sition took place. The whole question was, whether the
means of relief should come from the Imperial treasury,
or from Ireland alone. Supposing a tax were proposed
on the rateable property of Ireland alone, why should
Ireland support the impoverished districts more than
England? " Are we one country," exclaimed the Hon.
and Gallant Member, " or are we not?"—(Hear, hear.)
Everything depended on the radius which was taken. If
he went beyond his own estate, was it with the province,
the anion, the country, they were to stop? He said the
empire.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORI' expressed his intention of voting
against the grant.
Mr. HUME thought the question bad been well put—
" What was the want of Ireland?" It was employment.
Would this small grant give employment and promote
the healthy action required to restore that country?
Would the Government be able to state, when this money
was exhausted, what was to stimulate the industry of
Ireland in order to produce that employment which the
Hon. Member for the University of Dublin had properly
allowed to be the great want of Ireland?
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Member for Oxford
has objected to this vote, and places his decision very
much on the ground of the report of Captain Hamilton,
the inspector of Ballina. The Hon. Member who has
just spoken has also objected because ho thinks that em-
ployment ought to be given, and that refusing this vote
would induce employment. On the contrary, Captain
Hamilton said, in the first place, that the landlords are
generally unable to give employment, and in the second
place, that the labourers are scarcely able to work; and
he puts to the Commissioners what would be the conse-
quence of immediately striking a rate. He says:—
" The striking of another rate under present circum-
stances would have the effect of extinguishing the little
hope that is still to be found in the union. The few
landlords who are giving employment would come to a
stand-still. In the next place, a rate could only be col-
lected by tedious legal proceedings, and by the time it
had become available the poor would have ceased to
exist." It there be any Hon. Members who expect that
refusing this vote will be the means to give employ.
ment, they have at least the authority of Captain Hamil-
ton against such a supposition.—(Cheers,)
Mr. P. SCROPE stated that he would not trouble the
House to divide on his amendment.

Sir W. BARRON muved the adjournment of the
debate.

The House divided, and the numbere were—
For the adjournment
Against it ...
Majority —l67
Lord DUDLEY STUART then proceeded to ad-
dress the House. He had never approached a subject
on which he found it so difficult to come to a conclu-
sion as the present; involving, as it did, the lives of a
great body of the Irish people, and the interests of
many important constituencies in this country. He
felt, however, that he could not object to the present
advance of the sum proposed by Government,
only he would propose to advance it in a very different
manner from that advocated by her Majesty's Ministers.
He thought the House should endeavour to combine jus-
tice with economy. He thought the proposal of the
lion. Member for Stroud illusory, but that his own
would be found to have a practical effect. He did not
expect the return of a farthing from the unions of Ire-
land to which these•sums were advanced ; but, consider-
ing how the poor-rates of this country had been
increased by the influx of Irish pauperism, he thought
that the local distress of Ireland should be borne by the
.proverty of Ireland, He was the '-more disposed to

assist the people of Ireland, because they had been mis-
governed for centuries. He admitted that public feeling
in this country was opposed to the making of grants to
Ireland. England was exasperated, and justly so, at the
manner in which our assistance had been received.
Such language as " Take back your dirty money" could
not fail to sink deeply into the hearts of the people of
this country. He did not make his proposal for the
purpose of relieving the Irish landlords from the per-
formance of their just duties ; and no doubt
Ireland, as a whole, could repay our advances.
A remarkable circular had recently been issued by the
Archbishop of Tuam to the people of Ireland, in which
he called upon them in the midst of their distress to sub-
scribe money—for what (lid the House suppose ? Why,
to relieve the Pope from his present pecuniary difficul-
ties.—(A laugh). Now, he thought it might be all very
right for Irishmen so to act, but then England ought
not to be made to pay for it. He thought his pro-
posal deserved the support of the House. He
thought that her Majesty's Government would ac-
cede to it ; as, from the speech of the Noble Lord, he
gathered that he had some measure in contemplation by
which the property of 'lreland at large should be made
to provide for the local distress of Ireland. He
trusted that Ireland would have the benefit of such a
measure, and that she would be placed in all respects
upon an equal footing with England. He hoped to
see the time when Ireland should enjoy every privilege
which we enjoyed ourselves. They were our fellow-
countrymen, and we ought to relieve them. He believed
that his proposal was one which combined humanity
with the requirements of the case, and in that conviction
he bad brought it forward. The Noble Lord concluded
by moving, " That the 50,000/. to be issued out of the
Consolidated Fund, for the purpose of affording relief to
certain distressed poor-law unions in Ireland, be ad-
vanced by way of loan, to be paid by means of a rate to
be levied on the whole of the unions in Ireland, except
the unions receiving such relief."
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY would re-
mind the Noble Lord (Lord Dudley Stuart) when be
urged an objection to the Archbishop of Tuam's letter,
that the Pope had contributed money for the relief of
Ireland, and he would further remind the Noble Lord ,
that his own advances for the benefit of Poland had not
escaped censure.—(A laugh.)
Lord DUDLEY STUART—I wish I could get that
money back again.—(Laughter.)
Mr. BANKES wished briefly to state his reasons for
the vote he intended to give, because he had heard an ac-
cusation made by the Hon. Member for Limerick of
murder against those who voted in the same way, and be-
cause he bad also heard something from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer that seemed to justify that accusation.
He and those Hon. Members who acted with him were
perfectly ready to accede to this vote if the Government
had acceded to their amendment, stating that it was
given under peculiar circumstances, and binding the
House to that being the last vote of the kind. He could
not, however, vote for the !amendment now proposed by
his Noble Friend, because he considered it a false
pretence to speak of this as a loan, and that it was,
in fact, a grant which could never be repaid. He
could not agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when he said, that if the people of Ireland died be-
cause this grant was refused, the Government had
done their duty. He must deny that they had
done their duty. They had laid before the House state-
ments of the distressed state of some parts of Ireland
which were known to them in October last, and in De-
cember was made that communication of Captain Ha-
milton, which stated that the people were starving ; and
yet Parliament was not called together, nor did the
Speech from the Throne commence with any notification
of an exigency of this nature.
Lord J. RUSSELL saidaithe resolution to which the
Hen. Member had just referred had contained a censure
on the Government for not doing that which no other
Government had done, the present Government having
done what previous Governments had done under simi-
lar circumstances, and no censure having ever been cast
upon those Governments. Of course, it was impossible
for them to consent to a vote of censure under such cir-
cumstances. Ho could not agree to the amendment of
his Noble Friend (Lord Dudley Stuart), because the
Government were of opinion that the present 50,0001.
ought to be given as a grant. The Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Bankes) said that Parliament ought to have been
called together in November, but both himself and his
Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had stated at the end of last August
,that if
any circumstances of an extraordinary nature should
arise during the recess, they would grant relief in those
cases. The letter of Captain Hamilton was dated on
the 22d of January, and it did not reach the Government
until the month of February. While he could not agree
with his Noble Friend that the 50,0001. ought to be the
subject of a special rate in Ireland, still at a future time
it would be for the consideration of the Government and
of that House whether such sums of money ought not to
be charged upon some Irish fund.—(Hear.)
Sir W. BARRON warned the House that out of 130
unions in Ireland they would not have ten in a state to
support their poor if they persisted in the taxation of
districts which had nothing to do with the poor for whom
the money was destined.
Mr. REYNOLDS felt that his country had been gra-
tuitously insulted by Hon. Members who had opposed
this grant. He had heard the frigid and frczen political
economy of the Hon. Member for Montrose—a political
economy so frozen that it required a West Indian
climate to thaw it.—(Laughter.) That Hon. Member
had great compassion for the blacks, but none at all for
the Irish, to whom he talked of self-reliance. What he
(Mr. Reynolds) complained of was, that the present grant
was too small.—(A laugh.) It was a drop in the ocean,
and was only the forerunner of other grants.—(A laugh-)
Mr. PIGOTT rose to support the amendment of the
Noble Lord the Member for Marylebone, because he
believed, that while it relieved the starving people of
those unions in Ireland, it did justice to the people of
England. The people of this country were daily be-
coming more impatient of taxation, impatient of the
state of government in Ireland; there you had the sus-
pension of the Habeas Corpus, the large army, and an
immense police force, and were now trying an experi-
ment of feeding the people by grants from the Consoli-
dated Fund, or in other words, from the pockets of the
industrious people of England. Mr. Pigott was opposed
to these continued grants as unjust towards this country.
At the same time, he would not be a party to with-
holding 50,0001. as a loan, and on that account he should
support the amendment of the Noble Lord, hoping that
her Majesty's Government would not long allow Ire-
land to remain in such a deplorable state.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... 9
Against it ••• ••• ,•• 157
Majority ••• ..• ••• —l4B
Another division then took place on the main question
the numbers were—
For the resolution ... 128
Against it ... 39
Majority ••• ••• —B9
The Inland Revenue Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Elections and Polling (Ireland) Bill and the Elee •
tive Franchise (Ireland) Bill were brought in and read a
first time.

IRISH DEBT.
On the motion of Mr. MACGREGOR, the following
returns were ordered:—

Of the number and amount of loans contracted on account
of Ireland from the period of the union until the Exchequer
of Ireland was united with that of Great Britain in the
year 1817 : _ .

Of the amount (if any) which has been paid off, out of the
Irish revenue of the Irish debt due at the union, and of the
Irish debt which accrued afterwards, down to the union of
the Irish and British Exchequers:
Of the amount (if any) of the said debts which has been
paid from the Consolidated Fund since the union until the
year 1817 :
_ .

Of the total amount of funded and unfunded Irish debt,
including floating Exchequer-bills, which was funded in
England from the date of the union until the union of the
wo Exchequers in 1817 :
Of the amount of loans contracted on account of Ireland
from the union of the two Exchequers in 1817 to the sth day
of January, 1849

Of the amount (if any) of such loans as has been repaid,
distinguishing the amounts paid (if any) out of the Consoli-
dated revenue, and (if
any) out of the revenue levied in
Ireland:

Of the gross revenue levied in Ireland each year, from the
sth day of January, 1818, to the sth ,day of January, 1849,
distinguishing the expense of collection, and the other pay-
ments out of the Irish revenue in its way to the Exchequer :
Of the total gross expenditure of Ireland for each year,
from the sth day of January, 1818, to the sth day of
January, 1849, distinguishing the amounts (if any) of repay-
ments of loans, of reducing the Irish debt Lfunded in Eng-
land or transferred to Ireland, the civil, military, naval, and
constabulary expenditures and interest paid on Irish debt
funded in England or transferred to Ireland, and which have
been each year paid out of the Consolidated revenue, and out
of the revenues collected in Ireland :
Of the amount (if any) which has been redeemed of the
Irish debt from the date of the union to the sth day of
January, 1849, distinguishing payments out of the Consoli-
dated Fund and out of the revenue levied in Ireland :
Of the total amount which remains unredeemed of the
Irish debt funded in England from the union to the sth day
of January, 1849:
Of the amount of Irish debt funded In England on the sth
day of January, 1849, and amount of interest payable
thereon out of the Consolidated Fund:
And, of the amount of Irish debt funded in Ireland on the
sth day of January, 1819, and the sources from which the
interest due thereon is paid.
The House adjourned at 20 minutes after Two o'clock
to Monday.

MR. BURKE'S " ANECDOTES OF THE ARISTO-
CRACY."—Among the many noble and distinguished families
whose archives have furnished materials for this interesting
work are the following:—Percy, Vere, Hamilton, Russell,
Audley, Berkeley, Manners, Maxwell, Howard, Pelham,
Campbell, Pierrepoint, Norton, Musgrave, Primrose, Chandos,
Shirley, Hastings, Thynne, Hay, Cecil, King, Byron, Fraser,
Cheney, Butler, Churchill, Lennox, Stanley, Gunning, Rad-
elYfre, St. Leger, Gordon, Ponsonby, Cameron, Keith, Sey-
mour, Fox, Douglas, Clifford, Brandon, Lyndsay, Knollys,
Mohun, De Courcy, Ashworth, Bowes, Welby, Home, Wal-
pole, Wellesley, Poer, Fitzroy, Bolle, Montgomery, Lyster,
Lvttelton, Egerton, Scott, Thellusson, Hutchinson, Digby,
Ward, Astley, ,Stuart, Crawford, Bruce, Rokeby, Sackville,
Annesley, Lynch, Elwes, Parkyns, Cavendish, Boughton,
Compton, Mathew, Villiers, Darrell, Bathurst, Honywood,
Mure, Brandon, Fitzgerald, Dudley, Baird, Drake, Mac-
kensie, &c. &c.

. -
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and likewise much windy spasms. No medicine had been of
any service to her, until a lady advised her to try Holloway's
Pills which gave her immediate relief, and in a fortnight made
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Hall is actually sold to the Rev. Dr.
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-Packet,

The half-yearly meeting of this company was held on
Thursday at the station at Derby; Mr. George Hudson,
M.P., presiding.
The Secretary, Mr. BELL, having read the advertise,
ment convening the meeting, the seal of the company
was affixed to the register of shareholders.
The SECRETARY then read the following report :
" The receipts from the various sources of revenue on
the Midland Railway during the half-year ending the
31st December last, have exceeded those of the corre-
sponding half-year of 1847, by 29,5771.; and will, atter
deducting the ordinary expenses of working the line,
paying the whole of the interest upon the loan capital of
the company, the dividends upon the guaranteed stock
and shares, interest at the rate of 51. per cent, per
annum, upon a half million of the amount paid up on
the 501. shares, and laying aside 10,0001. for the purpose
of relaying the permanent way, leave a balance of
202,3221. From this sum the directors recommend the
proprietors to declare a dividend of 21. 10s. upon each
1001. of Midland consolidated stock, 3/. upon each 1001.
consolidated preferential stock, after the rate of 6L per
cent. per annum upon the Erewash Valley shares, and
of 1/. 16s. 3d. upon each 1001. of the conslidated Bir-
mingham and Derby stock. This will leave a balance
for the ensuing half-year of about 16,0002 After the dis-
astrous changes which have occurred during the eventful
year just ended, and which have been felt by all classes
of society, but particulary by those engaged in trade
and commerce, the proprietors will not be surprised to
learn that there has been a decrease in the receipts from
the passengers traffic during the half-year, as compared
with the corresponding half of 1847, to the extent of
18,6284; but it is satisfactory to observe that in the
merchandise traffic there has been during the same
period an increase of 24,6001., and in minerals an in-
crease of 14,622 Z The lines in course of construction
are the Mansfield and Pinxton, the Erewash Valley,
and the Leicester and Svvannington Extensions, all of
which it is expected will be ready for traffic in the
course of the present year, and from which the directors
expect a considerable addition to the revenue of the
company. The directors are aware of the attempts
which are making to persuade the shareholders that the
coal traffic upon this railway is being conducted at a
loss; they are, however, satisfied that it produces a con-
siderable profit, and that with the present state of com-
petition in the coal trade, it would be very unwise to
disturb the rates. The directors have taken 10,0001.
from the revenue to form a fund for the renewal of per-
maneist way, and they propose to set aside a like sum
every succeeding half-year. With respect to the re-
newal of engines, carriages, and other working stock,
having now obtained what they believe to be an adequate
supply for the working of the main line and branches
(the lines in course of construction, as well as those open
for traffic), no further sums under this head will be placed
to capital account. The engines, carriages, waggons, &c.
will be kept in repair as they have hitherto been at the
cost of revenue, so long as they are worth repairing,
and when worn out will be replaced with new ones
from the saline source. 71. he directors are of opinion
that this will be a much better mode of maintaining
the capital stock of the company, than by forming a
depreciation fund. It may be asked • Why then form a
fund for the renewal of the permanent way?' The an-
swer is that the wear and tear is comparatively unseen
and difficult to appreciate, and if maintained out of the
ordinary revenue might in some half-years form a very
large and difficult item to deal with, whilst in others it
would be very light, and so produce a fluctuation in the
dividends very much to be deprecated, whilst in the case
of the engines, &c., the wear and tear is perceptible and
more readily dealt with each half-year. The directors
are most anxious to reduce the expenses of working the
railway to as low a sum as may be compatible with the
safety of the public, and the efficiency of the service.
They have therefore discontinued several of the pas-
sengers trains, but as some of them only ceased running
in November last, and others only in December, the re-
duction will be more apparent in the present than in the
last half-year. The following extract from the engi-
neer's report will show the saving which has been
effected in the item of maintenance of way The
maintenance accounts for the half-year include 31}
miles more railway than the corresponding period
of the last year. The saving in maintenance
which was expected to arise from taking the
north branch into the company's hands has been
fully realised. The full advantage of the saving does
not appear in this half- year's accounts, because the con-
tracts did not fall due until the middle of August. Never-
theless the expenditure under the head of maintenance
is greatly reduced as compared with the year when the
amalgamation took place. At that time the cost averaged
2301. per mile per annum, and it is now reduced to 140/.
per mile, and I anticipate that, when more of the line is
taken into the company's hands, a further and very con-
siderable reduction may be accomplished.' The directors
are happy to state that they have no Bill before Parlia-
ment this session. They have for some months past
been engaged in obtaining and liquidating the bills out-
standing against the company for Parliamentary pro-
ceedings in past sessions; hence the large item under
this head in capital account. They regret to state that, in
many instances the charges have been most exorbitant.
The subject of the rating of railways has also engaged
the attention of the directors. The fact that railway com-
panies are rated upon a portion of their profits as carriers,
and that they are rated excessively, has long been known
and complained of, but no adequate remedy has been ap-
plied. The pressure of the grievance has now become
so intolerable that an effort will be made in Parliament
during the present session to obtain some relief, and it
behoves the shareholders to render what assistance they
can, by signing the petitions which may be presented to
them, and by making the grievance known to their
Members. The following directors go out by rotation,
viz., Sir Isaac Morley, Mr. Taylor, and Mr. Wadding-
ham, but are all eligible for re-election. Undtat the pro-
visions of the Act of last session, the proprietors have
the option of increasing the number of directors from
fifteen to twenty; the directors have appointed Mr.
Paxton, of Chatsworth, and Mr. Barwell, of Northamp-
ton, and recommend the proprietors to confirm that ap-
pointment. Mr. Jackson, one of the auditors, also re-
tires at this meeting, but is eligible for re-election."
The report having been read,
The CHAIRMAN said he believed the proprietors had
already received a copy of the statement of accounts,
and it would not, therefore, be necessary to have them
read. The report which they had just heard went more
fully into details than was usual with the documents
which the directors generally presented to the proprie-
tors of that company, and he should be spared the ne-
cessity of entering into many points of interest at that
moment; he should, therefore, in the first place, confine
himself to moving the first resolution, " That the report
be adopted, printed, and circulated amongst the share-
holders." In doing so he trusted that if any proprie-
tors should be anxious for more explicit or further in-
formation, they would be good enough to put any
questions they might please to the directors, who
he hoped would be enabled to give a full and
satisfactory reply. There could be no doubt that
the time had now arrived when it was necessary
that there should be no doubt or suspicions as to
the honour or integrity of railway directors. The
board of directors of the Midland Company had had the
honour of making the lines, and had been entrusted with
the care of the property of the company, and if in the
course of their guardianship they had committed any
errors, those errors were of the judgment, not of the in-
tention. As he had before said, the directors were there
ready to answer any questions and to offer any explana-
tions, and they wished the proprietors to make all
doubts they might entertain clear by explanations; be-
cause the directors felt that, as railway directors, they de-
rived their authority and strength from the confidence
reposed in them by the shareholders.—(Hear, hear.)
Whilst they enjoyed that confidence they were glad to
serve the interests of the common property, but if they
did not enjoy it they were quite ready to resign. lie
should reserve any further observations he might have
occasion to make until a later period of the meeting, and
in the meantime content himself with moving the first
resolution.

Mr. DAKIN, who stood at the back of the chairman,
but with other gentlemen occupied an elevated position
upon a platform, proceeded to put a few questions to the
chairman, but from the low tone of voice in which he
spoke, and from the continual interruptions on the part
of the general body of proprietors, who were anxious
that Mr. Dakin should descend into the body of the
meeting, he was very imperfectly heard. He was, how-
ever, understood to object to the items for stock being
placed to the capital account. He further objected that
the coal traffic was, it was to be feared, carried on at a
considerable loss t) the company. He objected also to
the several items in the published statements of accounts,
especially to the sum of 36,0001. set down as Parliamen-
tary expenses.
The CHAIRMAN, amidst considerable noise and in-
terruption, defended the propriety of the item above-
named being placed to the capital account. He said
he was also prepared to prove that the mineral traffic of
the line belonged to the most profitable of the work-
ings of the company. As to the item of 36,0001.
for Parliamentary expenses, he should not object to
that being placed to revenue, if that was the wish of the
proprietors.
Mr. WYLIE, of Liverpool, rose and said he enter-
tained no doubt that the inquiries which had been made
by the Hon. Proprietor (Mr. Dakin) had ;reference to
other and more complete inquiries on the same and
similar subjects, to which the anxieties and solicitude of
the general body of the shareholders responded.—(Hear,
hear.) Without entering into the details of minute
questions, such as those which were thus forced upon the
considerationtof the shareholders, they felt that, although
all might have been done by the directors for the best,
still the best results had evidently not followed their
exertions.—(Hear, hear.) They had but to look to the
present position of the company for a proof of the truth
of what he said, and, moreover, that the shareholders
had a right to know by what means it was that the
present position of the company was so far beneath its
original promise. He wished the meeting to believe
that he had every desire not improperly to disturb
the unanimity of any body of proprietors; indeed, he
should consider himself criminal were he to attempt
to trifle with the large interests of the proprietors
of the Midland Company; and it was, therefore, with
no factious motive that he rose to move the appointment
of a committee of inquiry, composed of shareholders not
ready
being directors of the company. He was quite
s
believe that the directors had done their duty. towards
the shareholders honestly and fearlessly, and if,
efforts, as he
before said, the results had not been equal to thet
of such a
board to accede to the appointment _
made, he thought, so far from its being derogatory to the
of the directors to
com-
mittee, it should ,be the anxious.
proprietary.—(Hestr. 111
come forward and ask the_e adevsictwe:sahln'edwecvoeurn,seslayo,f their
whilst he thus paid
of the directors, there were
grity and honesty of purpose
onfoathecinogunetosuvildhbicehmhoarde
)the highest testimony to the inte•
bmeaennyt hc)abtiecdatiyonssahtotetibt.teertieemteacntt,
imago and unsatisfactory.—(llcar, hear.) Iu that

~~

The CHAIRMAN decided that Mr. Ellis was perfectly
in order; whereupon
Mr. ELLIS resumed his observations upon the letter
to which he had previously referred, and at considerable
length entered into details connected with the manage-
ment of the Swannington line. He entered also into
several statistical calculations, to show that the coal
traffic of such a line as their own was in fact actually
more valuable than the passenger traffic. It had also
been made a charge against the directors that the rates
of their mineral traffic were too low. Why be (Mr.
Ellis) would tell them, that if they were to try to
raise the rate one farthing per ton, they would be driving
their mineral traffic entirely from them. Adverting to
the guarantee of the Erowash Valley line, with the pur-
chase of which the directors had been taunted, it should
be remembered that they did not make the line, but
they were forced to acquire it. In reference to all
these matters, he (Mr. Ellis) was content to rest his
character upon the knowledge which his col.
leagues had of his transactions in connexion with
railway matters. Turning to the consideration of the
general question, he took occasion to notice that obser-
vations had been made in reference to the reduction in
the dividend of that company, and a comparison had
been invidiously made between the reduced dividend and
the financial condition of the London and North-
Western Company.—(Hear, hear.) The comparison,
however, of a dividend reduced from 7 to 5 per cent.
with one reduced from JO to 7 per cent. did not, in his
mind, present any very extraordinary preference in fa-
vour of the latter. Mr. Ellis maintained also, in refe-
rence to the very large item which appeared under the
head of Parliamentary expenses, that such an outlay,
although excessive and much to be deplored, had been
called for by the extraordinary emergency of the times.
He could not but consider also the heavy expenditure in-
curred in reference to the gauge question before Parlia-
ment as such, that, possibly, if the same course were to
be gone over once more, might, in like manner, be again
incurred even by careful and prudent men. That expen-
diture, he ventured to say, would have been final and
conclusive if the Government had been but honest and
kept faith with the report of the Commissioners ; but
even as it was, they might be sure that, but for that
opposition, there might even now be a broad gauge line in
the Midland district.--(Applause.) He thanked them
for the patience with which they had listened to him,
and sat down amidst applause and confusion, in the
midst of which several gentlemen appeared to be desirous
of addressing the meeting at once, and some personal
explanations having been exchanged,
Mr. SIDNEY trusted the meeting would not suffer itself
to be led away by personal disputes from the considera-
tion of the real interests of the company.
Mr. BRANCKER was undertood to renew the expres•
sion of his opinion as to the unprofitable nature of the
coal traffic at the present low rates.

Mr. IlincarNsom (one of the managing committee of
the directors) replied at considerable length, and de-
monstrated the value of the mineral traffic, illustrating
the various arguments which he adduced by facts and
figures derived from actual traffic on the Bristol and
Birmingham line.

The discussion which arose upon the question of the
coal traffic occupied considerable time, but we have not
space to insert the useful figures laid before the meeting.
They were, however, entirely confirmatory of the view
of the value of the coal traffic, as expressed by Captain
Huish, in his recently published pamphlet, which was
referred to more than once in the course of the discus-
sion in deservedly high terms.
After a good deal of diffuse discussion, in the course
of which several shareholders expressed their fear lest
the appointment of such a committee as was sought
might injuriously affect the value of the property which
it was the common object to promote,
The CHAIRMAN said he was exceedingly anxious to
make a few remarks.—(Hear.) In the very few words
with which he had opened the business of the day he
had carefully abstained from making any unnecessary
remarks, reserving himself until he should hear some-
thing from the gentlemen present in the shape of rea-
sonable ground why the committee should be appointed;
but he must confess that he had listened to nothing
which invited him to look upon the proposition with any
favour. On the other hand, the very mover and sup-
porter of the measure expressed their entire confidence
in all that the directors had done. He could not refrain
from noticing the comparison which had been invidiously
put between the reduced dividend of the Midland and
the reduced dividend of the London and North-
Western Company. But upon a survey of the
price of their stock, there was nothing surprising
or wonderful in such a comparison. The price
of the London and Birmingham was 1371., at a
reduced dividend of 7 per cent., whilst the price of the
Midland stock was 9.1/., at a reduced dividend of 5 per
cent. He (the Chairman) could not, therefore, see any
remarkable disproportion between the comparative divi-
dends of the two companies. He was happy to hear the
high opinion of Mr. Glyn which had been expressed by
the Hon. Proprietor. He could scarcely believe that
anything could be said too highly in commendation of
that gentleman, but he (the Chairman) could not per-
mit the praise which that gentleman received to be made
the means of attempting to lower the character of the
directors of the Midland Company. He telt it, how-
ever, to be his duty to put the shareholders
their guard against falling into the hands
tef which
who might possibly induce them to follow
ta s
y vn this
would affect the value of their p_which
point he referred to a letter which hePhraT.
was made
distinct mention ,
receivedr. from
Liverpool, in which very
of the object which certain
of
tof the benefit entehfietir of
own the
private ends. The Chaisaid to have in view when theeyishareholders were
he
in
madese
h
general proprietary the
rpmreatxn dwelt at some length, and
with much warmth, upon the conduct of certain gentle •
men amongst the shareholders, whom he
mentioned as
baring taken a prominent part in proceedings such
as he
briefly
had described; and after appealing to the meet•
ing whether he was not at all times ready and willing to
neglect his own private comforts to promote their in-
terests (which was responded to with considerable ap-
plause), proceeded to remark that when the shareholders
took into consideration the fact, that they had passed
through a year of unexampled commercial depression,
that they had suffered a diminution in their receipts
to the extent of 20,0001. was, therefore, not at
all surprising. They were a commercial company,
and dependent on the prosperity of commerce for their
own; and, therefore, he looked with confidence to the
improvement of their receipts -and the activity of their
line with the impulse to be gained from the revival of
trade. In reference to the guaranteed lines of the com-
pany be remarked that it was made a subject of
com-
plaint that they had guaranteed interest. Why, they
had no capital, like the ,London and Birmingham Com-
pany, or they would not have given guarantees, but they
wanted the lines, without the capital; and they had con,.
sequently paid u somewhat high interest for it. die re-