The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

COAL DUES.

Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS brought in a Bill for
regulating the delivery Of coals in the city of Londo❑
and its suburbs. In doing so he felt it to be
his duty to make a few observations. The pre-
sent pill was local in its effects, affecting only the
delivery of coals in the city of London and its neighbour.
hood. When the House recollected how large a proportion
of the inhabitants of England were supplied with coals
delivered within these limits, and the immense quan-
tity of shipping that was concerned in the trade,
they must admit the immense importance of the
subject. He had compared the supply of Dublin
with the supply of London, and he had never
been able to understand why London should not be sup-
plied with coal at as cheap a rate as Dublin. In Dublin
coal was delivered from Whitebaven at from 2 le. to 235.
per chaldron ; in London it had seldom been less to

the consumer than 4.15. Great inconvenience was
experienced in some of the more southern and inland
parts in the way of obtaining coal, and it was the duty
of the House to see that those inconveniences were
not increased by legislative enactments. When the coal
subject was undergoing a full inquiry in that House,
there was not one individual who attended the Committee
but came to the conclusion that the 42d of George the
Third, which regulated the delivery of coals from the
very moment at which they came from the pit into the
possession of the consumer, tended greatly to ineicase the
price of coal. From the moment the vessel arrived in
the port of London, she was subjected to a strict regula-
tion, awl the way in which the cargo was to be delivered
was specifically pointed out. A necessity had in conse-
quence arisen for putting on board an individual to mea-
sure the coals ; and by him the duty, partly city dues, and
partly a Government tax, was ascertained. The meter
thus stood between the buyer and seller; and to this part
of the system his objection chiefly applied, beeause he
could not see why others should be called on to do that
duty which the buyers could perform for themselves. In
the first instance, it was intended to leave the meters to
look to the measuring of the coals, and to ascertain the
duties ; but when he found that Government intended to
do the duty away, he thought it would be right to get rid
of the city
ship-meters altogether. He wished to leave
the owners to deal with the merchants as they thought
proper, and he devised other and sure means for collecting
the city dues. In making this arrangement he had received
from individuals connected with the city of London, the
utmost possible information and assistance. They had
awed With him cordially, fairly, and candidly. They

undoubtedly claimed certain rights and dues; but means
would he afforded less objectionable than those now in
holing, for the collection of those rights and dues. It
was p,op,sed that the dues in future should be collected
by the ton. The orphans' fund, which was now mort•
gaged for the openings to London idge, and which was
10d. per clddron, would be commuted for Sd. per ton ;
there was also a city due of 4.d. per chahlron, and other
small dues payable to the Lord Mayor, all of which would
he commuted for 4,d. per ton; making Is. per ton to be
paid to the orphans' fund. There was, besides this, what
was called the market penny, the appropriation or which
he should presently notice. With respect to the collection
of these dues, it was thorn ht better that they should he
levied in the north, where there were already establish-
ments suited to that purpose, than in the port of London.
Liberty would b,, given for pernris embarked in this
trade to compound for the payment of the duce, according
to the quantity which a vessel would really carry, for two

or three yearn ; and he believed that in avery short time

scarcely a vessel would come into port that would not be
compounded fur. The next point was to allow indivi-
duals, the owners of colliers, to employ at their own will,
such persons as they pleased to unload their ships. Under
the Act of ISO 7 the whippers were allowed a fixed salary,
which, looking at the al eration in the price of provisions,
Was greater than, considering the market price of labour,
they could have procured now. But those people, in con-
sequence of the prevailing system, lost about 169. a week
of their wages, which was charged to them by those who
sent them to the different vessels, for lodgings, which were
over-rated, and for beer which they never drank. It was
therefore proposed that the owners of colliers should em-
ploy such persons as they pleased and bargain with them as
they would do with any other body of labourers. He now
came to another and a very material point. Nothing, he
conceived, could be more absurd than buying coals by
measure. The consequence of this practice was that none
but large coals were sent to London, where they were
broken, and being sold by measure, gave to the dealer a
greater profit. Large quantities of small coals were thus
left unconsumed in the neighbourhood of the pits. Now in
London, they wanted every sort of coals,—large, mid-
tiling, and small ; but a very great quantity of small coal
was destroyed at the mouth of tl.e pit, in consequence of this
practice of sending none but large coal to the metropolis
and other plums. The reason of this was, that large coal
when broken, filled a greater space than when it was in a
solid and compact Mess. The dealers, therefore, pur-
chased the large coal, which was broken on ship-board,
broken at the wharfs, and ultimately broken by the retail
dealer, to the manifest injury of the consumer. It was
proposed that the existing system should be done away;
and there could be no doubt that if coals were sold by
weight, instead of by measure, large quantities of coals
which were now wasted at the pit would be beneficially
brought to market. At present, the mode of selling by
measure was also attended with this inconvenience—that

if you thought the measure unfair, you could only get the
man to measure one sack. If that were not properly
filled, you sent to the wharf, and got a met, r to measure
the whole. In that case, though some sacks might be
deficient, yet if it were found, taking the average of the
whole, that the waggon contained as ninch coals as it
ought, then the troulde and expense fell upon the eon-
aumsr. It was proposed, therefore, that sacks that would
contain 2cwt. should be provided, and that at every coal-
wharf there should he a weighing- machine, where the
waggon and all could be weighed without expense,
and thus the exact contents could he ascertain-
ed. It would be necessary to make compensation for the
meters. Now, there was a market-penny payable to the
city, which produced 11,0001. a year; and out of that
fund it was that compensation should be made to the meters.
By the abolition of all the regulations which now fettered
the trade, it would then become as free as any other. The
coal-market would then become free as the corn-market
of Mark-lane, and people would be allowed to buy and sell
without any of those restrictions and limitations which
hitherto prevented the buyer and seller of coals from
coming to market and making the best bargain they could
for themselves. In the removal of the present regulations,
the services of the ship-meters would no longer be required,
but as he admitted the principle of making some provision
for those who had long acted in the public service, and
who, on being removed, might have no other means of
providing for themselves, he thought these men were en-
titled to have some provision made for them. This the
corporation had undertaken to make, the Bill continuing
to them the city dues which they had heretofore received.
He should observe that those dues amounted to 4d. per
chaldron, but in consequence of their undertaking to pro-
vide for the ship-meters, the dues would he continued at
4d. per ton. In the course of the communications had
with the city on this subject, he must say that it had be-
, hived with the greatest liberality. In conclusion, the
Right Hon. Gentleman observed that the effect of these
regulations would he found of great benefit, not only to the
persons immediately engaged in this trade, who would
thus be freed from many inconvenient and unnecessary
regulations, but to the public generally, who would have
the advantage of a more extended competition in that
necessary article, which would thus be reduced to its lowest
price. He then moved that the Bill be read a first time.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN expressed his approbation
of the measure, which be trusted would have the effect of
reducing the price, and throwing open the trade. A prac-
tice now existed which he could not account for, of
charging I4s. per chaldron for the screened coal sent up to
London, while the same coal, if sent to Ireland, was sold
for ss. per chaldron. This came out a few days ago in
an action brought against a party who had shipped a quan-
tity of coal alleged to be for Ireland, but whin found its
way to the London market. The action was for the dif-
ference between the price.) paid in London above what
would have been received in Dublin, and it was recovered.
Now, he would suggest that as the trade was to undergo a
regulation, some inquiry should be made into this subject,
for it was unfair that London should pay so much more for
this kind of coal than Dublin.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON thought that his Right
lion. Friend (Mr. F. Lewis) was entitled to great praise
for the time and labour he had bestowed on this subject.
Itsys certainly of very great importance, that the city of
London should have the means of obtaining coals as cheap
as possible; and as far as this Bill could have that effect,
he would give it his cordial support ; but he thought there
were parts of the Dill not necessary for that purpose. Now,
with respect to the Orphans' Fund, it was already mort-
gaged for a million or a million and a half, and it could
not be touched. As to the ship-meters, he had great
doubts of the policy of doing away with them, for he
understood from those well acquainted with the trade,
that it was necessary to have some party between the
buyer and seller, and this could be managed without
any additional cost to the consumer. As to the dif-
ference between the price charged for the small or
screened coal in London and Dublin, he thought it was
easily accounted for by the difference in the length of
the voyage. The object of this Bill was to establish a free
trade in coal, and he admitted that many of the restrictions
to which it was now subjected were unnecessary ; but in
doing away with restrictions, he thought they should not
overlook those limitations made at the pit's mouth by (as
we understood the Hon. Member) a combination among
the coal-owners themselves, and by which the quantity
delivered itt each month was regulated. By these means
the coals were rendered 6s. or is. a chaldron dearer
than they otherwise would be to the people of London
and other places. It sometimes happened that a vessel
was obliged to wait two or three weeks for a cargo,
because, as was alleged, the quantity to be delivered at
particular pits for the month had been given out. Now
this was a sort of monopoly which ought to be put an
end to, and the whole trade thrown fully open.
Mr. BELL assure! the Hon. Members who had spoken
on this subject, that no such difference existed in the
prices of small coal as they imagined, They were sold for
4s. 6d. and Os. per chaldron according to quality. As to
limitation of the quantity delivered among the coal-
owners, he must say that there was never any want of a
full supply in the London market.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON, in proof of the effect of
the limitation, said, that when it ceased for a time to be
in operation, coals fell in London, but when it was re-
newed they rose again. The difference in the price of
small coal sent to London and that sent to Dublin was
proved on a recent trial, already alluded to.
Mr. BELL could only say that the ship-owners did not
pay that high price.
Mr. Alderman WOOD felt much obliged to the Right
Hon. Gentleman for the pains he had taken on this sub-
ject, and also for the very handsome manner in which he
had alluded to the liberality of the city of London. The
city had certainly acted with great liberality in providing
for the retired ship-meters, who would be provided for
during their lives. As to the statement that the public
would not get the full benefit of the remission of duty on
coals, he thought it absurd.
Mr.WARBURTON said that the evidence taken before
the Committee which sat on this subject, showed that
there was jobbing in the south as well as in the north in
this trade, and he owned he should like to hear from some
of the gentlemen of the north connected with this trade an
explanation of what had been stated, that ships were de-
layed because the pit had delivered the regulated monthly
supply, and could deliver no more till the next month.—
This certainly required some explanation.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said that the remark of the Hon.
Member for Bridport deserved an answer, as it was urged

:3 a maw' er entitled it to notice. IThe whole

us.ion was going on in an amicable manner, until the ob
.crvstion of the Hon. Member for London (Mr. Alderman
Thompson), which he must say was unjust, illiberal, and
infounded. The lion. Member (Mr. Warburton) was
nistAen in supposing that a vessel could not get a cargo
it any time. It she could not get it at one pit, she could
it another. If he referred to the evidence before the Com-
:nittee, he would find that there was no limitation of men,
a•ul that the London market was always rather over-sup-
•died than otherwise, anal, that there was no want of coals
even its times of hard frost. The proposed regulation of
.eiling coals by weight instead of measure, would do away
with much of the inconvenience now flt by consumers;
as to the price, it would be found that it would not
lie raised at the pit's mouth in consequence of the refine-
:ion of the tax. IL! had seen a bill delivered in London
for coals, amounting to 160/., and on analyzing it, he
f mod that only 421. of it went into the pocket of the coal-
owner, the remaining 1181. was absorbed by the carrier,
the coal-merchant, and the dues payable in London.
Mr. R. GORDON said, that at the risk of drawing
down the indignation of his Hon. Friend the Hon. Mem-
Iser for• Newcastle (Sir M. W. Ridley), lie must say, that
there was a regulation among the colliers fcr delivering
only a certain quantity in each month, and that he thought
it was a rcgulr.tion by the removal of which the public

,voir!d be a great gainer.
Lord HOWICK said that there were large fields of the
finest coals within a quarter of a mile of the sea, which
the owners could not work, because they could make ❑o

profit by Bending the coals to Llndon,
After a few words from Mr. WAituunToN and Mr. F.
LEWIS, which were not audible in the gallery, the Bill

was read a first time.
On the question that it he read a second time on the
18th of Apri',
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said that the Von. Ba-
roaet (Sir M. W. Ridley) bad taken a most unwarrantable
Lberty in reprimanding him for the course he had felt it
proper to pursue on this subject.
The motion was then agreed to.
Lord HOWICK presented certain papers relaf ng to tie
manumission of slaves.
Mr. CALCRAFT wished to know when the second
reading of the Noble Lord's Emigration Bill would

come on:
Lord HOWICK said be could not bring on the second
reading till after the bolydays.
CIVIL LIST.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for bringing up the report of the
_ .

Committee on the Civil List.
The report was brought up. The first resolution,
granting a sum 0f510,0001. to his Majesty, for the pur-
poses of the Civil List, was read. On the question that
the resolution he read a second time,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished to
say a few words on this resolution to peeve .t any misun-
derstanding as to what fell from him in the Committee.
He believed he distinctly stated, that iu adopting this re-
solution he did not consider himself pledged to any reduc.
tion of salaries. The proper time for the discussion of
this subject would he when the Bill came before the House,
and when the offices mentioned in it were about to be
classed. He would reserve himself for that discussion, but
without being pledged to any particular c,nrsc.
Colonel DAVIES thought the House should he liberal,
and even prodigal, in voting every thing which might tend
to the personal comfort of the Sovereign ; but with every
disposition to concur in any grant having such an object,
no consideration should induce him to vote for the conti-
nuance of those salaries to officers of the household which
the Committee had declared too large. He could not con-
curoe responsibilityi u the suggestion
o f
na s ttehret4,l3le,necsai (umseLis that would bebe on
o
give them a share in the patronage. Instead of assigning
a Pension List of 75,000/. to his Majesty, which was
already crammed full, an.' many of the lives on which
must, in the course of nature, be as long as that of the
Sovereign, he would prefer giving n. fixed but unencutn-
bared list of a much smaller sum.

Sir G. WAIL-MENDER would support the grant,
which, on the whole, however, he thought rather too
small, considering the manner in which tl e present Sove-
reign lived, compared with the privacy of the lase Sove-
reign. He feared that a small income would only tend to
beget debt on account of the Civil List. It was absurd to
say that this sum came out of the pockets of the people.—
The people did not think so ; and even if it did, the
people of this country would never grudge a liberal
and splendid income to a Sovereign who had so
many claims on their affectionate attachment as the
present Monarch of England. It was a fact, that the
sum fixed for the income of his Majesty was lower than
that of any other sovereign of Europe. But this money
did not come out of the pockets of the people, for it should
he recollected, that the hereditary revenues of the Crown, •
which were immense, had been given up to the public;
and if they considered that a large portion of this income
went to pay the salaries of high officers of the household,
it would be found that the sum which properly night be
considered as the income of his Majesty, fell far short of
what he would have derived from his own hereditary re-
venues. He did not concur in the suggestion as to the
Pension List—but he thought that a considerable addition
should be made to the Privy Purse.
Sir H. HARDING E felt it his duty to support Govern-
went on this measure.

The Earl of DARLINGTON would not object to that
part of the Civil List which related to the personal cone-
fort of the sovereign, but he did think that, considering
who the distinguished individuals were who held high
offices in the household—that they were offices of pageant
—necessary he would admit in a monarchical government,
which be hoped would always be the government of this
country—(Hear, hear)—they were offices which would
bear reduction in point of salary; and if any motion were
made to reduce them '2O per cent., he would support it.
Mr. BRISCOE also would support reductions which
did not trench on the personal comforts of the Sovereign.
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we did not learn, said
that lie had opposed the last Governor-nt on this question ;
and as the present Government had refer red the matter to
a Select Committee to see what reductions could be made,
he would support the recommendation of that Committee.
Mr. CURTEIS hoped, for a variety of reasons, that no
division would take place on the subject; but if the ques-
tion should be pressed ts a division, he should feel obliged,
from the duty he owed his constituents, to vote with the
Member for Middlesex.
Mr. WILKS expressed his intention of supporting the
Government in this question.
Mr. HUME was of opinion that considerable reductions
ought to be made in the expenses of the Household, though
at the same time be thought that the numerous family of
his Majesty ought to be taken into con►ideration. He
could not agree, nor would he ever agree, to the vote be-
fore the House, but he would not take the sense of the
House on the present occasion, but when the Bill was
brought in, and came to the Committee, the House
would then be able to see what particular sums were
allotted to the different departments in the King's house-
hold. At that stage of the proceedings he would re-
new his opposition, if necessary, but be confidently
hoped that the Noble Lord (Althorp) would be in-
induced to abide by the recommendation of the Com-
mittee. The item he objected to most was that of the pen-
sions, and which in the eyes of the people detracted more
from the honour and dignity of the Crown than any thing
else. His objection was, however, lessened, upon see-
ing that the amount voted under that head was half of the
sum usually voted. He considered it unfair towards the
King to make the pensions an item in the Civil List, be-
cause
his Majesty could not have the free control of the
money so voted. He should have no objection to provide
a fund out of which his Majesty might be enabled to re-
ward those only who had rendered him personal services ;
but the fact was, that the pension fund was taken out of
the hands of the Sovereign, and controlled by his Mini-
sters. The sum proposed to be voted for pensions, under
the Civil List, was 75,000/, which was only half of the
whole amount. There still remained pensions to the
amount of 82,0001. to lie provided for in some way or
other, and when that question came before the House, he
would take care to watch narrowly the mode in which it
should be proposed to dispose of them. Ibis own opinion
was, that there were many pensions which ought to he
altogether discharged from the List; that Ministers should
he called upon to make a selection of those who received
pensions for services performed by themselves or their re-
lations ; and that all unworthy persons should be dis-
charged from the list. No individual, he thought, ought
to be allowed to receive a pension, if his income from
other sources exceeded the amount of his pension. Whe-
ther he should make that proposition, or move for an co-
tire revision of the Pension List,ibe was not yet determined.
He was willing to allow the report to be brought up,
though he did not wave his opposition to the vote. _
_on.
Mr. CALCRAFT was very glad that the Hon. Al 'the
ber for Middlesex did not intend to take the sense ofn
House on the question ; and lie must declare,litehactl bit
List
opinion, the course pursued with respect to t
Hear,
was not creditable to either side of the H°use•
and -et there was no
tude and affection to his Majesty, y
'n the Civil List
the revolution of the vote
instance since
1 It was nosy nine months
long delayei
being nearly 80
ion to the Throne, and up to the
since hie Majesty's access.
bad
berm come to with respect
moment no decision ern
present mo
hear.) Hon. Members were
.constantly talkiNg of( grati-

to th3Civil Lis'. Vaapect to the amount of the vote,
he wis disposed to agree neither to a larger nor a smaller
one, and for this reason—because the experience of the last
ten years had show that the precise sum proposed had an-
eviereA his purpOsit ; and lie would not consent, for the
sake of a small saving, or a large saving, to place the
crown in such a situ ition that it would be obliged to come
to that House for the payment of its debts. To what pur-
pose the sum of ten thousand pounds, which was the sub-
ject of dispute, was applied, he did not care. If the
great officers of the Household chose to relinquish so
much from their salaries, he did not think the suns too
great for a contingent fund. It should be recollected,
too, that her Majesty, contrary to the usage of formei
reign., got no outfit. He did hot understand that
the usual outfit had ever been offered, but only a
part. If that were the case, he could very well con-
ceive that his Majesty would refuse a sum, the very offer
of which he might eivsider an insult, it having been
the practice of all his ancestors to receive double the
amount. We all knew how frugal her Majesty was in all
her arrangements; but still the expenditure of a person in
her situation must unavoidably be great, and he was afraid,
that in preparing her outfit, her Majesty might be thrown
Into pecuniary difficulties. This was well worthy the con-
sideration of the House, and he should like to know why
her Majesty was not placed on the came footing with re-
spect to her outfit as all other Queens ? With respect to
the pensions, they had been reduced from 145,0001. a
year to 75,0001. That was an arrangement in favour of
the public, but the House was in fact placing a powerless
sceptre in the hands of his Majesty. It nominally gave his
Majesty the controul of 75,000/. for pensions; but if hi.
Majesty wished to give him a pension of 40,0001. to-mor-
row, he could not do so, because all the pensions were an-
ticipated. This fine grant, then, tsar a mere shadow ;
and unless somebody was obliging enough to move off the
list. his Majesty could not move any one on.---(Laughter.)
Sir R. INGLIS said a few words which were inaudible.

An HoN. MEMBER said that the country ought not to
continue burdened with a pension list of so large an amount.
Many of the pensions were disgraceful to those who gave
them, and those who received them, and the whole ought
to uahrgo revision.
Sir T. FREEMANTLE said, that it would be dis-
graceful to the country to allow the subject of the outfit
to her Majesty to rest as it stood at present. His present
Majesty deserved more of his country than any other
king, and yet he had been worse treated by his subjects.
If his Majesty was so treated by an unreformed House of
Commons, how would Ire be treated by a reformed House ?
Mr. ROBINSON could not agree with the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just sat down, in thinking that it was dis-
graceful for the House of Commons to accede to the
King's wishes. Among the many acts which hsd en-
deared his Majesty to the country, nothing had tended to
that effect more than the anxious desire which had been
manifested by his Majesty to relieve the suffering people
from every burden possible; and lie could not hear an
Hon. Member endeavouring to induce the House to rote
away 50,000/. without rising to express his dissent from
that proposition. He was far from wishing to see the
Crown deprived of any thing necessary to uphold its dig-
nity; but he approved of the proposition (as we under-
stood) to reduce the vote to tLe amount recommended by
the committee. He hoped that there would be a revision
of the pension list, and that pensions would be taken
away from all those persons who possessed large private
fortunes.

Mr. COURTENAY supported the vote proposed for
the Civil List, but considered that the arrangement made
of removing various charges from the Civil List, and fixing
them on the consolidated funds, far from economical.
Mr. BANKES wished to know from the Noble Lord
(Al harp) whether, if the Committee up stairs had re-
commended a vote of 510,0001., he hid intended to call
upon the House to grant a larger sum ? and whether at
any time he had communicated to the Committee up stairs
an intention of asking the House for a surplus?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that if the Committee had recommended a vote of
510,0001., it was by no means his intention to ask for a
larger sum. With respect to the other question which
had been asked by the Hon. Mem)), r, he stated that he
had never communicated to the Committee up stairs any
wish that there should be a surplus sum of 10,0001. al-
lowed.

Sir J.YORKE thought the House was placed in rather
an awkward situation ; for the proposition made was, to
take a certain sum from the salaries of the King's servants,
and place it in the King's pockets.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
pledge himself as to the particular manner in which the
10,0001. would he applied. That the House would decide
upon, when the Bill came into Committee.

Mr. O'CONNELL said it was not fair to reproach those
who were advocates of economy with being the enemies
of monarchy. The real friends of monarchy were those
who made it popular, and not those who would increase
the burdens of the people. The Hon. and Learned Mem
ber then alluded to the Irish pension list, which he de-
clared required revision. He said that Leonard Macnally,
a barrister, who had been always engaged against the
Crown, in defending persons charged with high treason
and publishing libels, had, for a period of eighteen years,
received a pension of 3001. a year, paid to him by the
Crewe, and which was not discovered until be died, when
his widow applied to have the pension continued to her.
There were other pensions or annual payments still paid to
the persons who were connected with certain papers, such
as the Patriot and Correspondent. Besides this, a sum
of ?001. bad been paid yearly, since 1806, to two persons,
of the name of Hooper and Martin, until the sum of
2,0001. was paid in full, which he believed had latterly
been done. In looking over the Irish pension lie, he
foun i the name of no person in it who had performed
publ c services, except that of Lord Rodney. It was the
prectice, too, when Catholics became eminent at the bar,
to give them pensions, for fear, he supposed, of their turn-
ing agitators; till at last they became too numerous to be
psnsioned off in that way. But one Gentleman had three
pensions accumulated upon him ; and he had his pension
increased, because at a public meeting he voted in favour
of placing the nomination of Catholic B shops in the hands
of the Crown. lie should support the report of the corn-
% Mittee.

Mr. G. PRICE said that after all the expectations of
retrenchment which bad been formed in the appointment
of the Committee, the result was a proposition to retrench
only to the amount of 10,000/.—" Parturiunt montes,
nascetur ridicnlus mus." But even that limited prcposition
was negatived by the Noble Lord opposite, tho great pa-
tron of economy. He contrasted the declarations of Mi-
nisters when in opposition, with their conduct when in
office, and hoped that the country, which had been abused
by a gross delusion, would distinguish between those who
were the real friends of economy and those who were
merely professors.
Mr. LENNARD said that what had been stated by
the Learned Member for Waterford, in regard to Mr.
Leonard Macnally, confirmed the view he had always taken
of the propriety of the pension list being open. He did
not object to the amount of the pension list proposed by
Government. He was not an advocate for placing the
pensions on the consolidated fund, which would be taking
from the Crown that which had always been considered
part of its prerogative. But he hoped that the Govern-
ment would agree that the pension list should be annually
brought before Parliament, which would prevent abuses
in it. The Hon. Member for Sandwich complained that
no good had been done by the Committee. He 6°4 ht
great good had been done by it, for by separating the per-
sonal expences of the Crown from those which did not
properly belong to it, a sum of between 40,000/. and
50,0001. had been placed under the controul of Parlia-
ment, out of which he thought great savings would ul-
timately be made. He should vote for the proposition
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he hoped the
Noble Lord would adopt the recommendation of the Select
Committee, that the salaries of the greet officers should
be reduced.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to know on what fund the
salaries were in future to be charged which it was proposed
to separate from the Civil List ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER intended
to charge a portion of them upon the Consolidated Fund, and to
provide for the remainder out of the supplies of the year.
Mr. HUME, on a future occasion, would call the attention of
the House to the Junior illembers of the Royal Family with the
view of proposing that they sh uld be subjected to a !eduction in
proportion to the decreased price of all necessary articles.
Vie resolutions were then agreed to, and a Bill founded upon
them was ordered to be brought in.
The House then resolved into a _

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—N A V Y ESTIMATES.
On the motion of Sir JAMES GRAHAM, the following votes
were agreed to without opposition :
21,2111. for the maintenance of the dock-yards, abroad and at
home.
534,1641. for the wages of labourers and artisans employed in
the dock-yards.
Sir J. GRAHAM then moved that the sum. of 810,000/. be
granted for the purchase of timber and other materials.
Sir J. YORKE thought that it would be better to purchase
ships than build them. He was also of opinion that we should
build ships of a larger class than we had at present.
Sir J. GRAHAM admitted that the grant was a large one, but
said that the reason for it was, that the department had now an
orcrotunrciliZfoorf j.utTlcehgaatiLtstore Adins n v
iroal that evertirrngeen°tlsntteendesd
to build some ships of large size to compete with those of other
nations.
Mr. HUME thought it would be better to build em
boa
than large ships. He begged to know why so many royal yachts
were maintained, since the common steam packets were always
used on occasions where the yachts ought to be employed.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that the yachts were neces-
sary, and were frequently used. At the present moment the

viceroy of itelanti was in the habit of sailing in his yacht, which
was an appendage to the Viceroyal dignity.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that an excuse was never wanting for
m unnecessary expense. He knew that the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland sailed in his own yacht, and when he cable to England,
he came in the steam packet.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that when he entered the Admiralty it
,vas with the impression that the number of these yachts should
be reduced ; tint he found that from the time of William 111.
they had ben maintained in the same nuinber as at present, and
the command of them had bcktt given as the reward of service.
Although, therefore, he 'was a Member of a reforming and an
economising government, he did not feel himself justified in
taking at ay this stimulus to meritorious exertion.
Mr. HUME did not care for the time of Kiiig William ; he
wished to know whether the yachts welt, necessary ? He objected
the more to the present.grantl betalise Government had, on the
ground of economy§ reklistii to tit up another hospital ship in
the Thame,s.
Sir J. 011.KE said that if it were necessary to reduce the
naval estimates at all, the yachts should be the first item to be
struck out.
Sir B. MARTIN said it flat ridiculous to talk of expense in
this instance. The Oa of the yachts was only .1.%0/.
Mr. WARBURTON said that if his Majesty should desire to
go to sea, it would be more befitting his 'dignity to sail in a man-
of-war than in a vessel gilded like a gingerbread toy.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the government had certainly re-
fused to give to, the managers of the floating hospital on the
Thames, a ship belonging to the public, estimated at 1,600/., and
the former tlo'rernment had also refused to do so.
[Want of space compels us to omit the conversation which
ensued on several other resolutions : we seleCt the most material
parts.]
On the question that 95,000 i. be granted for the expense of
s:iip-building at BettibaVi
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in reply to a question from Sir Joseph
Yorke, said that the building Of ships at Boillbay would be dis-
continued.
Sir GEORGE CLERK Mitt, that in 1828 orders had been sent
to Bombay that nO more ships should be built there, but con-
siderable progrt!,ss having been made in one, it was thought ad-
visable that it should be completed. This would, however, be
the last vote on the subject.
Sir C. I ORBES was sorry to tint* that there was an intention
to abandon the building tsr gt4s at Bombay. The ships built in
the East Inflies.ftrere some of the finest in the service. There
was not a 'ship equal to the Ganges. They were likewise built
much cheaper than in England, and were almost everlasting.
The natives of India had as much right to he entployed in build-
ing our ships as those of any other portion of the British empire ;
but they seemed to be overlooked, and under the monstrous
measure of Iletbeti- A laugh)—he did, not see how the in-
terests of Inttla 'Were to be represented.—(Hear.)
Mr. W. SLOANE STANLEY had understood that the best
timber for ship-building was the East India teak, next to that
was the Sussex oak, and next to that the oak of his own county,
Hampshire. He wished to ask whether it was the intention of
Government rieNt vehr to take British or African oak
Sir B. M A itTIN said, that it was intended to take half British,
and half African oak.

The vote was agreed to.
The next ♦ote was one of 782,0001. for half-pay of naval officers
in 1831.
In answer to a question from Mr. Htl3/E,
Sir J. GRA H A3l said the plan of one promotion in three
vacancies had been adhered to with good effect, and he expected
a diminution of 2,0001. or 3,000/. in the half-pay in the ensuing
year.—Vote agreed to.
£246,058 was voted for pensions and allowances to naval
officers' widows and relatives.
..£1,300 was voted for botinties to chaplains.
On the vote of 240;2004 for out-pensioners of Greenwich Hos-

pital,
Sir J. GRAHAM observed, in answer to Sir J. Yorke, that as
at present advised, he did not intend to extend the outpension
system to merchant seamen, but he meant to give a eoneurrent
claim on the hospital to merchant seamen And seamen in his Ma-
jesty's navy—the matter to be subject, of course, to the decision
of the Admiralty. ke should open the details after Easter.—
Vote agtoett
X. 15400 was voted for superannuations of commissioners,
secretaries, andclerks formerly employed in the civil departments
of the navy.
The next vote was one 136,9001. for the freight of ships for the
conveyance of stores.s.sAgreed to.
£3,000 was vOted for the freight of ships for the conveyance of
passengers and stores to Swan River and other places.
.tfiB,'4,o was voted for the expenses of sending convicts to New
South Wales.
£3,380 was voted for bounties on the capture of piratical vessels.
£30,050 was voted for salaries of officers, and Contingent ex-
penses of the Victualllng--6111ee.
£6.3,36:1 war, Voted for salaries of officers and contingent ex-
penses of the Victualling Yards.
Sir G. CLERK asked, whether it was the intention of Govern-
ment to discontinue issuing beer to ships at home?
Sir .1. GRAHAM said, when ships returned from foreign sta-
tions with the health of their M.'s Impaired, beer would be al-
lowed, but in small quantities, and it would be provided by con-
tract, It Was not intended to allow beer generally to ships in
harbour, and by that means a saving would be effected of the
difference between 325., per month per man and Otis.
Mr. HUME said, that in his opinion, every thing in the victu-
tualling department might, and ought to be settled by public
contract. If that course were adopted, a very small establish_
ment indeed would be sufficient for all useful purposes. To
prove the truth of what he now asserted, he would on some
future day move for a return, by which he would show that they
were, by their present plan, paying a high price for the very
worst beef. London was the dearest market that could be se-
lected ; and yet they were in the habit of buying cattle here
which were driven up from Devonshire, and afterwards sent to
Deptford, where they were slaughtered and cured. Why did
they not buy those cattle in Devonshire, and have them killed
and cured there ? —(Hear, hear.) Assuredly that would be the
means of effecting a considerable saving. He could not conceive
when the army was supplied with all sorts of provision, by con-
tract, without complaint, why the same principle should not be
adopted in the navy. The East India Company, who were
obliged to provide large supplies of the same nature, always pro-
ceeeed by way of contract. He thought that by adopting a
different plan, 50,0001. a year might be saved in this department
of the navy.
Colonel SIBTHORPE wished to know from the Right Hon.
Baronet, whether it was intended to discontinue the Commis-
sioner at Deptford ?
Sir J. GRAHAM answered, that, under the existing establish-
ment, it was still necessary to continue the Commissioner. With
respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Middle-
sex, he admitted the propriety of the general rule of having
articles supplied by public contract. To that general rule, how_
ever, there were some exceptions. Those who were at the head
of the department wished, as much as possible, to have the sup-
plies furnished by contract, and this was done with respect to
beer and some other articles. But they were obliged, from time
to time, to go into the market themselves, for the express purpose
of keeping the contractors in check. He was convinced that
there was no security for having really good bread but by manu-
facturing it. Instances could be adduced in which, when the
bread furnished by contractors was sent to a foreign station, it
was found to be so bad that it was refused by the men, who cer-
tainly deserved the best article, and was sent back again. He
believed that the public derived a great saving from the plan of
manufacturing bread for the Royal navy.
Mr. S. RICE next moved that the sum of 80,0001. be granted
to his Majesty for defraying the expence of the civil contingencies

for 1831.
Mr. HUME said that this was the lowest estimate under this
head which the House had had for a long time, and looked upon
it as an earnest of still greater reduction under an economical ad-
ministration. There were, however, certain items in it which he
could not approve • for instance, a sum of 480/. to Lord Burghersh,
for the expense ofjournies to England and back, on his Majesty's
service. Now he should be glad to learn the particulars of this
expenditure, and would take an opportunity of moving for such
an account when the House resumed. There was another item
—that of 1,373/. to Mr. Vaughan, our Minister in America, for
journies (we understood), a sum almost as great as that of the
whole salary allowed to the American Minister in this country.
He should also move for an account of the particulars of this ex-
penditure. The next item was for fees paid on the investiture of
the Duke of Sussex, the Duke of Saxe Weimar, and Sir Edward
Codrington with a foreign order. Now he could not see why
the Commons of England should be called upon to make gocd
such expenditure, and why, if his Majesty conferred those
orders, the parties receiving them should not pay their own ex-
pense. There must be some person to receive those fees, and
he thought the House should have an account of them ; for
these he should also move. He also saw an item of 1,200/.
for lottery expenses. Why this should be four years after the
lottery had ceased he could not imagine. He should also wish to
have an account of an item of 3,6001. paid to Mr. Babbage for
making machine. There was also a sum of 360/. for making
out the commission for the Commissioners of Ecclesiastical In-
quiry. Why such a sum should be expended for such a purpose
he could not see. The Great Seal was put to the commission,
but the Chancellor was paid '7,000/. a year for that amongstother
duties, and he saw no reason why the country should be asked
to pay over again in fees of this kind. He should also move for
an account of this expenditure. There were next the sum of
5251. for the appointment of the commissioners for the affairs of
India, and 9-21. for the India Board. Why, he asked, should not
these parties pay for themselves ? He should also be glad to see
the particulars of the sum of 1,279/. to the solicitor of the com-
missioners of charities, and likewise of the sum of 6,8124 paid
as compensation to two persons of colour, who were deported
from Jamaica. He next saw an item of 1,451/. for valuations
in the city of Dublin. Surely an expense of this kind ought
to be paid by local taxation, and not to be thrown upon the
country at large. The next item to which he would call the
attention of the Committee was a sum paid for fees to the
clerk of the Crown and Hanaper in Ireland, on the issue of a
writ for a representative Peer for Ireland, in the room of the
late Marquis of Headfort. Surely this was an expense that
ought not fall on the country. He also saw 1,3001. to
travelling expenses of Inspectors of Police in Ireland. This ex-
pense ought to be borne by the counties, or at least, the half of
it should be so paid, and not let the whole fall on the country at
large. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to object for other
items of the estimate; amongst which were 379/. issued to the
Clerk of Parliament; for certifying the public acts of the Sessions
of 1829 and 1330; 276/. to the Archbishop of Dublin, as Chancel-
lor of the Order of St. Patrick, as fees for delivering the collars of
the order to the Marquises of Drogheda and Waterford ; 710/. to
the ringers of St. Patrick's and St. Werburg's church, in Dublin,
for ringing at the death of the late King ; and 2,0161. to persons
receiving what was called his Majesty's bounty. He should be
glad to know what for ? There was also the clothing and stan-
dards to three regiments of the household troops, and triennial
allowance to serjeant trumpeter, and badges for the men in his
Majesty's barges. These should have come under diftbrent heads,
and not under that of civil contingencies. Adverting to the ex-
pence of commissions, he observed, that commissions for various
purposes had cost the country 1,200,0001. since 1800, and he
doubted much whether their labours had been productive of a

saving of half that sum.
Mr. S. RICE hoped that he should be able to satisfy his Hon.
Friend on the various subjects he had introduced. He must
first say, that that the estimates were not those of the present
Ministers. He did not say this by way of casting any imputation
upon them. On the contrary, he fully admitted that reductions
had been made on many of the items by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, and that the merit of the economy belonged to
them tier a saving which had left a surplus on the whole estimate
under this head. On every point to which his Hon. Friend had
adverted the fullest information would be afforded. With re-
spect to the expellee of diplomatic journies, by a regulation of
the late Ministers they were to be discontinued, except where
the journey was actually on his 'Majesty's service, and the extra-
ordinary diplomatic expences were to be paid out of a diplomatic
fund, which was not to increase, and this head was to I e re-
moved from the civil contingencies. The expcnce of outfit had
been reduced from 9,8701. to 4,8751. by the adoption of a new
standard. So that under this head some of the extraordinary
expellees would be removed, and others greatly diminished. The
compensation to the two persons of colour who had been re-
moved from Jamaica was only a part of what was to be paid to
them. They had suffered great hardship undeservedly by that
removal under the order of the Duke of Manchester, and he (Mr.
S. Rice) should have to move an additional grant to them,
but tinder a separate head. It was at first considered
that the Noble Duke should be required to pay this
himself; but as he had acted by the advice of his
legal advisers, it was deemed right that--lie should
not be called on. His Hon. Friend had objected to commissions,
but many of those appointed had already concluded their la-
boors, and others were drawing to a close. As to the vote to
Mr. Babbage, it was one for which the country would rejoice to
pay. It was a machine by which the most abtruse calculations
could be worked with mathematical certainty ; mathematical,
nautical, and other tables could be constructed from it with ease
and certainty ; indeed his Friend ought not to object to
it, for it was probable that he himself would hereafter be saved
much trouble by it, and that some of his calculations on the
estimates might be made by mechanical means. The sum voted
was for the purchase of the whole machine, which was to be ap-
plied to the public service. As to the expenses of the Life
Guards, they being household troops, the expenditure could not
be well brought in the regular army estimates. The expences
of the solicitor for charities were for proceedings under that
commission, and much of those expenses had been already reco-

if) *AT-e-ivat%