The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-27 00:00:00

Is this confined to the Times of Friday? Why, on Saturday
this paper takes the Noble Lord's part against me, and having
in the usual form introduced my name.—( Laughter.) I be-
lieve my name is sterotyped at the office for the advantage of
the paper.—(Renewed laughter.) In one paragraph it accuses
me, and then it turns about to vindicate by abusing all Corn..
mittees. It then talked of the Roxburgh Committee ; and
" the peritioner says there is no redress for his wrongs, or for
those of his supporters, nor any sort of satisfaction beyond that
of throwing away his money in experiment. Thus we
dare not say corruptly, but almost incredibly baffled"
—dare not say corruptly ! Don't they say " corruptly" in
making the apolcgy ?—( Hear, hear.) Their fears, and not
their judgment, induce them to make that apology. Then it
refers to the Sligo Committee. Ido not think the Gallant

Officer (Colonel Perceval), who sits next to the Noble Lord
(Maidstone), would laud that Committee muele.—( Laugh-
ter.) I was mistaken—the Gallant Officer is smiling—l love
the good humour of his countenance.---(Renewed laughter.)
When the Committee was formed, I thought it had fallen 50
per cent.—(Great laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman then
read another paragraph from the Times, stating that lament-
able and disgraceful as were the proceedings of the Commit-
tees, one consolation was left, namely, that a remedy could
not be much longer withheld—( Cheers) " Lamentable and
disgraceful" are the words of your own organ. It does not
make a distinction, because it draws in all the Committees.
This is the language of the public press—it is the language of
the public. And again I thank the Noble Lord for bringing
the subject forward.—( Hear, hear.) Your partiality is evinced
in the crowding of Members on ballot days—in the canvassing
of the agents--in the chuckling of the attornies, according as
the numbers balance on either side.--( Hear, haar.) A very
humorous writer talks of a Court which decided judicial ques-
tions by dice. I for one bad much rather take the " hazard
of the die," than come to that box (the ballot-box); I had
rather stand my chance of the dice, and say, " Seven's the
main-11 is the nick."—(Loud laughter.) When the change
was first made in the system of Election Committees,
by the passing of the Grenville Act it arose from seen like
myself, speaking out plainly and decidedly. Is there not as
great an evil existing now, as before the passing of the Gren-
ville Act ?—( Cheers.) Is it not natural that the bad qua-
lities of the House before that period, should not now be con-
centrated into the several Committees ?—( Wear, hear.) Lord
Chatham said, " the Members of the House cover themselves
with everlasting disgrace." This is before the passing of the
Grenville Act. Mr. Grenville, in moving for his Bill, said,
"both parties are canvassed, agthough we were self-elective."
--( Hear, hear.) I repeat this language—is it not true
of the Houee now?—(Cheers)—will any man—can any
man, deny that this is the cave ?—( Continued cheering.)
I am bound to admit for a time that the ill effects of the pre-
sent system were not disclosed—its ill effects were disclosed
when impartiality was most required—when you wanted pro-
tection the most you have it least, and just in the reverse
ratio, when you most want a fair tribunal you have a partial
one.—( Cheers.) Mr. Ridge, in speaking of the Grenville
Act, said that unless oaths were more attended to and abided
by, it would make bad worse.—( Cheers ) Ido implore the
House—l know that there are certain Members of it who bear
no very kind feeling towards me—let them still retain a good
name, but lot me esk them, for their own sakes, reflect on this.
—( Cheers.) Have I not done well to call the pubiic atten-
tion to this ?—( Cheers.) In what I said I did not mean to re-
flect personally.--e Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh !") How
had the people of England got rid of oppression—how had
the prerogatives of the Crown been shorn to their proper
shape—how had the judicial bench been altered from
all that was bad to the pure fountain of justice—how had
the jury system been purified—how have your institutions
been ameliorated? Why, by some unfortunate, unintelligent
individual, like myself, having the boldness to speak out,
and show things in their natural sphere.—( Loud cheers.)
I am one who love to give words their natural meaning, and
I say the thing is now done it is impossible for the system to
continue longer in existence. The Morning Chronicle of this
morning says the people will not stand it ; the Times says the
people of England will not bear it. The honesty and
integrity of the people will not endure it.--( Loud
cheers.) Let ate see now the men of sincere and
pure piety--sincere and pure religion look to the evil
of the desecration of that God who shall judge
us all. Let the Honourable Gentleman opposite protest
before God that this is all a ealumny—let your English Gen-
, tlemen boldly state that you are the victims of a system, and
that you are not acting of your own disposition—proclaim
that you arc borne down by the faults of the system, that you
are forced into practices as a party which as individuals you
would scorn. Repeal that system altogether—reform it,
and you shall have any apology from me you please.—( Cheers. )
But until you abolish that, you shall not have a word
from me, because I assert that I have spoken Nothing
bat the truth. You shall to-morrow have the papers is
every pert of the town, and in every part of the country,
calling out for fair play and justice—it is impossible that you
ran resist it ; and if I have been an humble instrument
in bringing things to such a fortunate pitch, I feel honoured.
Had I not been prevented by you, Sir, I intended to have
moved that a Committee of twenty-one should be appointed
to sit from day to day, to inquire into and report into the
working of the Grenville Act—that that Committee should
-sport from time to time, and intended to have suggested
that all Committees under that Act should be adjourned for a
week.—(Cries of " Oh," and laughter, from the Opposition.)
Why, sir, if I wanted a justification of my statement I have it
at present in the fact that Hoe. Members may vote against me
while they agree with me in opinion. Therefore, sir, I
shell now retire, declaring to the House that I have come
forward in this business from a thorough conviction of the
truth of what I have said. lam bound to thank the Noble
Lord for the courtesy with which he has brought for-
ward the motion, and with these sentiments I shall, as the usual
course is, withdraw.—( The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
then quitted the House amidst loud and vehement cheering.)
Viscount MAIDSTONE said that nothing which had
fallen from the Honourable and Learned Member had in
the slightest degree changed his intention with respect to
the motion he should have the honour of proposing to the
House.—( Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Learned Mem•
bey had endeavoured to look at it in a laughable point of
view.—( Loud laughter, and No, no.) He had endeavoured
to laugh at the charge in a manner unbecoming the gravity ct
that House. There were expressions containing a groom
and slanderous imputation upon the conduct of Honour-
able Members who belonged to that House, which
he certainly would not for. one pass over. The lion. and
Learned Member had not altered the complexion of the
affair in the least, and although the Nthle Lord the
Member for Stroud had intimated that he would bring
forward another breach of privilege if he (Lord Maidstone)
persevered in his, he would say the Noble Lord was perfectly
at liberty to do so ; and if the Noble Lord substantiated
his charge, he ( Lord Maidstone) would vote with him.
He would now move Ist, that the enpressions in the
slid speech, containing a charge of foul perjury against Mem-
bers of that House in the discharge of their official duties was
a false and scandalous imputation on their House and character.
21, that Mr. O'Connell having avowed he had used them,
is guilty of a breach of the privileges of this House.—
( Opposition cheers.)
Mr. MA 15 NSEL, in seconding the motion, confessed that
that duty might have fallen into abler hands, and still less did
he feel competent to cope with the Honourable and
Learned Member for Dublin in the particular do
scription of language which he was in the habit of
using both in and out of that House.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Holding,
however, as he did, certain opinions as to the degree of courtesy
which ought to be observed by Members of that House to-
wards each other, and of the usages of society, he must de-
clare that in his view the ;unqoalitied expressions of the lion.
and Learned Member conveyed the most false and calumnious
charges.—( Cheers. He should not detain the House longer,
but conclude by seconding the resolutions of his Noble Friend.
Viscount HOWICK—I cannot help thinking that such a
proceeding as that proposed by the Noble Lord cannot be
adopted without great inconvenience. Ido not attempt to
justify the language complained of, but I do concur in the
meaning of it so far as it represents the present state of the
law to be not only discreditable but disgraceful. Instead of
raising the House in the estimation of the country I think the
resolutions of the Noble Lord will tend to lessen its charac-
ter, and bring upon it a greater degree of public repro-
bation. lam far from accusing any lion. Members of
this House of deliberate perjury, but do not all anticipate
the decision of a Committee when they see the Members
of whom it is composed 2—( Loud cheers.) I think, there-
fore, it will not be wise to adopt the resolution of the Noble
Lord ; but that the wisest course will be to drop the pre-
sent proceedings, and go on with the public business of the
night, and afterwards, with as little delay as passible, turn
our attention to the correction of the evils arising from the
present state of the law.—(Cheers.) This will be far bet-
ter than attempting to prop up a bad system by the resolutions
of the Noble Lord, which the people will never receive as a
satisfactory course. Ido not attribute any conduct to lion.
Members on one side of the House which I do not intend to
apply equally to the other side. I believe both to bo incapa-
ble of wilful perjury ; but such is the state of the law that
Members were in doubt or in ignorance upon it, and they na-
turally indulged in a leaning towards their own party and their
own friends. If the present resolutions are persevered in
against the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin how will it
be possible to overlook the breaches of privilege committed by
the Times and the Morning Chronicle? I think, therefore,
that it is imprudent to enter into such a warfare at all, and I
move, as an amendment, " That the House proceed to the
Order of the Day on the Irish Poor Law Bill."
Mr. GA SKELL—I sho-ald have expected that on a ques-
tion like this, involving the privileges of the House, a very dif-
ferent speech would have been spoken by the Noble Lord the
Secretary at War from that which he had just delivered.--
( Cheers.) I believe, however, that the Government find
themselves in some difficulty, and have so found themselves
ever since the division on the Ballot. I think it would have
been more manly on the part of the Government to have met
this question fairly and openly than to have dragged in the
name or conduct of the Bishop of Exeter—(Cheers)—and
that for the purpose of gratifying those who wished to expel
the Bishops from the House of Lords.—(Cheers.) I cannot
help thinking that the Noble Lord the Member for Stroud has
some personal feeling upon this matter: Perhaps the Noble
Lord has some recollections of a certain correspondence with
the Bishop of Exeter ?—( Cheers.) I should wish to know
whet would have been the conduct of the Noble Lord or of the
Government if any Hon. Member of this side of the House
made such charges against the Roxburgh or the Sligo Com-
mittees as the Hon. arid Learned Member for Dublin has
made against others? 'Would they be sheltered under the
previous question? How then do cases differ, except that the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin is a supporter of the
Government-_the same lion. and Learned Member who, in
lit 34, charged Earl Grey with being the malignant enemy of
Ireland ? It is incumbent on the House, in my opinion, to