The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-03 00:00:00

LAND).

Mr. COWAN presented petitions frcm various parts
of Sco!laed against the Bill for compelling the railway
companies in Scotland to run trains on S3ndays.
Sir G. CLERK presented several petidon3 to the same
effect.

Colonel MUIR als9 presented similar petitions.
Mr. GROG AN presente=d petitions from various parts
of Ireland against the Rate in Aid Bill.
Mr. REYNOLDS presented a petition from the dis•
tillers in Ireland, praying that facilities might be afforded
for bonding spirits.
ASSESSMENT OF HIGHWAYS FOR
PAROCHIAL RATES.
Lord 11. VANE presented several petitions, praying
for a new assessment of railways to parochial rates, and
for a reduction of the amount levied upon the lines fur
highway rates.

LAW OF MARRIAGE.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY, in the absence of his
Hun. Friend the Member for the West Riding, presented
a petition from the solicitors and other respectable inha-
bitants of Doncaster in favour of the proposed alteration
of the law of nalrriage to enable a widower to marry the
sister of his dt coased wife.

RATE IN AID BILL.
Mr. STAFFORD presented petitions from several
places in the county of Tipperary against the Rate in
Aid Bill.
ADULTERATION OF COFFEE BY CHICORY.
Mr. ANSTEY presented a leation numerously signed
by the coffeehouse-keepers of London, praying that the
order of the 31st August, 1840, allowing the introduc-
tion of chicory free of duty, may be rescinded. They
stated that the allowance for such a practice was in the
highest degree detrimental to the poor, and injurious to
the fair dealer. He gave notice that he should to-
morrow mere that the petition be printed with the votes.
ECCLESIASTICAL OPPRESSION.
Captain JONES presented a petition from the county
of Derry, praying that an investigation might be made
into the case oF Mr. Shore, and that immediate relief
might be granted to him.
ALLOWANCE TO POOR-LAW OFFICERS.
Mr. URQUHART presented petitions from a large
number of the officers engaged under the poor-law
guardians in the county of Stafford, and also from a
great number of the most respectable inhabitants of
Stafford, praying that superannuation allowances might be
granted to the poor-law officers.

Mr. A. STAFFORD was proceeding to ask a ques-
eon on a particular subject, when he was called to order,
and reminded that there was a question already before
the House.
Mr. HUME thought that if this motion were to be
acceded to that the terms of the motion ought at any
rate to be extended to the second Thursday in May.
Lord J. RUSSELL was ready to accede to the me-
tion of his Hun. Friend to the extent that he would say
every alternate, instead of every Thursday.
Mr. STUAR I' WORTLEY said that the Alteration
of the Law of Marriage Bill was fixed for the 19th of
April, and if the other subject was to be brought before
the House, there would be a palpable impossibility of ob•
taining any discussion upon it. He was quite willing
to postpone the matter to a future day.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman would postpone his Bill till the 3d of May, he
would offer no opposition to the introduction or discus;-
sion of the measure.
To this Mr. WORTLEY agreed, and the matter was
so arranged.
Sir R. PEEL said that a notice stood on the paper
for to-morrow night, with respect to the affairs of
the Punjaub, which it would be very inconvenient to bring
before the House without a longer notice.—(Hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said that this was only another
attempt on the part of the Government to
deprive the independent Members of their
privileges. One thing had been given up
after another till concession only seemed to lead to
concession. He was sorry to observe that his Hon.
Friend the Member fur Montrose had set the
worst example of all in last session agreeing
to a set of rules which m aerially stippled the
rights of private Members, and this session he had ac-
ceded to another set of rules which were equally mis-
chievous.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, deprecating
the alteration,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that in order to meet
the wishes of the House, instead of every Thursday
he would propose that on every alternate Thursday orders
of the day should take precedence of notices of motion.
Mr. HUME having acceded to this arrangement, the
resolution was agreed to without a division.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Lord J. RUSSELL then fixed the bringing up of
the report of the Navigation Laws for the 19th inst.,
and the third reading fur the 23d.
SUPPLY AND RATE IN AID.
In reply to Mr. A S CAFFOItD,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that it was his intention
to take the Committee of Supply before the debate on
the Rate in Aid.
BISHOPWEARMOUTII RECTORY.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said he had received a
statement from Mr. Davidson, the receiver of the Rec-
tory of Bishop wearmouth during the time of Dr. Wel-
lesley, which seriously impugned the facts stated by the
Hon. Member for Cockertnouth, on his bringing the
et tte of the rectory under the consideration of the House;
and as it was of importance not only to the individuals
concerned, but to the Church itself; he would read to
the House the communication of Mr. Davidson. It ap-
peared from his letter that Dr. Wellesley took posses-
sion of the living in 1827, and the average return of his
income from all sources during the 21 years he held the
living did not average more than 3,9001. The greatest
amount ever received in any year was 4,000/.; whereas
the lion. Gentleman stated that sixteen years ago the
income amounted to no less than 5,000/.
I'he general result of the statement was this,
that the income never exceeded 3,4501., from which had
to be deducted for parochial rate, curates, &c.,
930/., leaving only 2,5321., out of which Dr. Wel-
lesley paid fur the repairs of churches and
contributed to charities sums which had never been less
than 2001. a year.—(flear, hear.)
Mr. HORSMAN said, as the Noble Lord had given
him no notice of his intention to make his statement,
it was difficult fur him to follow him through
the details of his statement.—(Hear, hear.) The state-
ment he made was upon the authority of parties
with whom no doubt the 111ohle Lord was well ac.
quainted, and who were quite likely to be correctin their
information, and he must, therefore, adhere to the state-
ment which he made, which he still maintained was
correct in every essential particular.—(Hear, hear) The
Noble Lord said he had sated that 16 years ago Dr.
Welleeley's income was 4,500/. Now he did no such
thing. He merely made a calculation from the doctor's
sources of income, which would make the amount
appear to be 4,600/. per annum.—Ces of ear.")
However, he still believed his statement was'
foHunded
upon accurate details, and so he should continue to
think until he was convinced to the contrary.—(llear.)
VAN DIE 13EN'S—LAND.
Upon the suggestion of Lord J. RUSSELL,
Mr. ANSTEY postponed his motion on the subject
of certain illegal ordinances relative to the taxation of
the people of that colony.
In re ACCIDENTS IN MINES.
P to a question from Mr. HUME,
Sir G. GREY stated that the attention of the Go-
vernment we, at present directed to the subject of acci-
dents in mines, with the view of ascertaining whether
some means could not be devised to prevent the repeti-
tion of any frightful calamities.
SUPPLY.
The House then went into a BERNAL in the Chair. Committee of Supply, Mr.
Upon a vote of 50,0004 being proposed for the now
Houses of Parliament,
Mr. OSBORNE said he wished to draw the attention
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and th• House to
this vote. They were now called upon regularly every
year to vote large sums of money for the new Houses
of Parliament, and he thought, if the Fnan-
cial Reform Association of Liverpool, instead
of troubling themselves so much
about soldiers,
would had directed their attention
to this subject,
would have done a great deal of good.—(Hea, hear.)
Already they had exceeded the estimate by 800,000 Z
He had heard that those Houses of Parliament ••Juld
not be finished under less than three millions
and a half. He thought it would be exceedingly de.
sirable that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should call
for a vote of a large sum to finish these Houses of Par-
liament at once.--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME thought it exceedingly desirable
that before they proceeded any further the House
should be provided with an estimate of the
TIIE GAOL OF NENAGII.
probable expense that wou:d be required for com-
p. leting the works. He thought it was excoed-
Mr. SCULLY wished to inform the House that he bad
objectionable to vote that or any sum
seen it stated in a recent judge's charge for the count of inglY
of money until the House was furneshed with such an
Tipperary, that, there were no less than 68 prisoners eyon-
estim3t6r.REENE said, it was the earnest desire of the
fined in the gaol of Nenagh under sentence of transporta-
tion; that typhus fever had broken out in the gaol; that Mr. •
coasmtmisasrtoin2eorsoot,o). reduce the expense as much as
some of the cells in the hospital were so small as to be
possible.
was 'voted, but a considerable pro-
lay of that sum I not come under the control of
sixteen feet square, and that in many cases rho prisoners lay four in a bed. lle would ask the Secretary for the
the Commissioners, owing to the time at which they had
been appointed. There were contract e which could not
Home Department if it was not an exceedingly inconve.-
now be avoided, but, upon tho whole, he hoped that the
night practice to keep convicts for a considerable time, in
report which they should have to present would prove
a gaol previous to transportation.
satisfactory. The expenditure on the building at
suture.
Sir G. GREY said he had not received
in any official
information respecting the state of the gaol question;
sent was about 4,0004 a month, and there was a sum of
about 8,0001. now due to the contractors, which ought to
nor had he seen the judge's charge which the Hon.. Mem-
be‘p_aid
„forthwith.
ber had referred tf). Ile had receive no communication
on the subject from the Irish Government. He knew that
Mr. SPOONER thought the whole estimated cost
with respect' to some of the gaols in Ireland that addi-
ought at once to be raised by Exchequer-bills, and the
accommodation had to some extent been afforded.
t i o
LORDS'nal
IiEPORTS ON IRISH POOR-LAWS, works completed without delay. Such a course would
Sir H. W. BARRON moved that an address be con-
be the only true economy,
veyed to the Heuse of Lords, requesting their Lord-
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY feared that more than a mil-
ships to communicate td this House copies of lion remained to be spent, and that the all reports
—Aereed to. of their Lordships on the subject of Irish work would not
poor laws
be completed in less than two years.
Mr. GREENE said that no ad
ORDERS OF THE DAY AND COURSE OF ditional expenditure
- .
would be incurred without the consent of the
House.
PUBLIC BUSINESS. Sir D. L. EVANS stated that a general impression
mo
no
Lord J. RUSSELL said he proposed to bring on they intded useful In reply reply to a question by Mr. GOULBOURN,
prevailed that tha monbuns of the building had Nen en
too largely athepplied to p
the
Parliamentary Oaths Bill on Monday the 30th instant.
ornamental.
Mr. GliEti;NE repeated that full information should
The NOBLE LORD then rose to move," that on Thursday
the 19th day of April, and every alternate Thursday
_ fol-
be eivpn to the House.
lowin, orders of the day have precedence of notices of A
Ir.IOSBORNE said the ventilation squabble was not
motion." Ile fyls ibero mid byils? clytibt that SW rule, YI3 Qv",
• •

CLERGY RELIEF BILL.
Mr. BROWN brought up the report upon the Bill.
THE IRISH CHURCH.
Mr. OSBORNE gave notice that after Easter he
would move that the House should resolve itself into
a Committee of the whole House, to take into con-
sideration the temporalities of the Irish Church.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
COLONIAL POLICY.
Sir W. MOLESWORTII said that, after Easter,
he would submit to the consideration of the House a
motion on the subject of the colonial policy of the Bri-
tish empire.

PLURALITY OF LIVINGS.
Mr. HUM gave notice of his intention (tomorrow)
to move for a return of all clegymen, holding two or
more benefices in the Church, who had been appointed
since the passing of the last Act, together with the
amount of income derived from their livings, and the
number of the population comprised within each of them.
SMITHFIELD MARKET.
Mr. MACKINNON gave notice of his intention to
postpone his motion n-lative to the nomination of a
Committee upon Smithfield Market, until Thursday, 17th
of next month, in consequence of a public meeting hav-
ing been advertised to be held in the City in that interval.
COLLECTION OF MALT DUTY.
Sir EDWARD BUXTON asked the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, whether he could lay before the House
an account of the expense of collecting the malt duty,
and of the net amount received from it in each of the years
ending January 5, 1847, 1848, and 1849. He said he
had been induced to ask the question, as a great deal
of misrepresentation existed with reference to the ex-
penses of collecting the malt-duty. It had been stated
by one public print that it amounted to a million and a
half.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was much obliged to the Hon. Baronet for giving him
an opportunity of answering the question. The expense
for collecting the whole Excise duties only amounted to
900,0001, and, therefore, the collection of only a portion
of those duties—the malt duty—could not amount to a
million and a half—(Hear). He found, from papers
which lay on the table of the Houie, that the whole ex-
pense of collecting the malt-tax was 188,0001. The
net proceeeds of the malt duty was in the last three
years as follows:—In 1846, 5,084,0001. ; in 1847,
' 4,456,000/.; and in the last year, 5,224,0001.
COLOAIAL LAW.
Mr. EWART asked the Under. Secretary for the
Colonies a question relative to statements which have
appeared in the Sydney papers, of the execution of a man
for a crime not capitally punishable by the laws of this
country.
Mr. HAWES replied that it was true that a person
in November, 1848, was executed for the crime of rape.
but acc.)r,ling to the laws of the colony rape was punish-
able by death.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should not meddle with that, but be wai :urpristd to
find the Hon. Gentleman opposite recommending the
issue of Exchequer-bills. With respect to the ermy,
the navy, and the other great departments, Ito had kept
the expenditure of the year as much as possible within
the income, and he should not willingly depart from that
rule in the case of the new buildings. There should b
the fullest information on the subject given to the Hoire,
but it was to be remembered that there existed certain
contracts which could not be broken. Those contracts
must be adhered to, but the Government did not intend
to enter into any new contracts.
Captain BOLDERO wished to take this opportunity
of stating that he had, for the last three weeks, been
sitting upon a Committee in one of the new Committee-
rooms, and that they had been so much annoyed by
smoke that it had been necessary to have all the win-
dows open and to sit with their great-coats on—(A
laugh)—and the consequence was that he had caught a
very severe cold. This nuisance had,
.however, been in
some degree abated; but the ventilation of the Com-
mittee-rooms was most defective, and must produce an
injurious effect on the health of all persons who were
compelled to attend in them. The room where the
Committee of which he was a member sat was crowded
during the day, and on retiring from it, and returning
after an absence of five minutes, the odour was most
offensive—worse than that of bilge water.
Mr. GREENE said that the ventillation of the Cone
mittee-rooms, as well as of both Houses of Parliament,
was originally intrusted to Dr. Reed, but by a resolu-
tion adopted by the Committee some time since it was
taken out of his hands and committed to Mr. Barry,
who had not yet had an opportunity of completing his
arrangements. He (Mr. Greene) had no doubt, how-
ever, that a great improvement would be effected in the
warming and ventilation of the rooms.

Mr. EWART stated that in the room in which the
Committee on the Insolvent Members' Bill sat it was im-
possible at one end of the room to hear anything that
was said at the other end.

Mr. GREENE had been informed that the best mode
of preventing reverberation was to paper the walls with
foss paper, but the Hon. Gentleman might rely upon it
that endeavours would be made to remedy the defect to
which he had alluded.

The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 10,000/.
towards defraying law charger.
Oa a vote being proposed of 50,0001. towards defray-
in the charge for consular establishments abroad,
Mr. HUME suggested that a considerable reduction
might be effected in this department of the public ex-
penditure. It was formerly the custom, when a Mi-
nister was sent to a foreign court, that a
,Minister of
equal rank, and generally with the same allowances,
should be accredited to the British Court; but while we
had Ministers at some foreign Courts who received the
fall allowances, their representatives in this country had
only third or fourth rate salaries.

Lord J. RUSSELL :observed that, in consequence of
the changes which were at present occurring on the con-
tinent, it was impossible to determine what alterations
could be made in our consular arrangements.

The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 50,0001.
towards the charge for civil contingencies ; and the
House then resumed.

RATE IN AID (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for the adjourned debate on the
second reading of this Bill having been read,
Mr. BRIG iiT said that, as a member of the Com-
mittee appointed by that House to inquire into the
working of the Irish poor-law, ho had voted in Com-
mittee for the resolution in favour of the rate in aid; he
had else voted with the majority by whom that proposi-
tion had been supported in that House; and he was pre•
pared to justify those votes. This appeared to him to
be a question of life or money. It was evident from
the testimony of witnesses examined before the Com-
mittee, from the evidence of persons in all parts of Ire-
land, and from the statements in the public papers,
that unless funds were provided from some source to
relieve the distressed unions in Ireland, tens of thousands
of their fellow-countrymen in that part of the United
Kingdom must perish. He was not prepared to justify
a rate in aid merely on the ground of its necessity, be-
cause it might be justly contended that the same amount
of money might be raised by same other mode ; but he
would justify the restricting of this rate to Ireland on
the ground that during the last three years the rest of
the United Kingdom had paid a rate in aid for Ireland
to a greater amount than the rateable property of Ire-
land was now called upon to contribute. Within the
last two or three years 8,000,000/. or 10,000,000/. had
been given to Ireland from the revenues of the United
Kingdom ; a very large private subscription had been
entered into, the British Asacciation having alone
expended 600,000/. ; and by far the larger proportion
of this amount (although Irishmen had supplied some
portion of the funds) was contributed by the tax-paying
classes of Great Britain, in addition to the heavy
local taxes which had been thrown upon them for the
support of Irish pauper immigrants into this country. In the
city parish of Glasgow the poor rates last year amounted
to 70,000/., and it was estimated that two-thirds of this
amount were required for the support of Irish paupers,
many of whom had been brought over as deck passengers
by steamers from the Irish ports. In Manchester, the
amount required in 1848, for the relief of the settled
poor, including those Irish paupers who had lived in the
borough long enough to obtain a settlement, was 37,8471.;
the amount for unsettled English casual poor was
18,6391, and for unsettled Irish casual poor, 28,007/ I.
was calculated that this expenditure of 28,0001 was
equal to a rate of 10,1. in the pound on the whole rate
able property in Manehrs'er; but if they took only that
pertion of the property which paid the poor. rate, exclud-
ing the property, on which that rate was remitted,
the rate for the support of Irish casual poor would
be not less than from Is. 3d. to Is. 61. in the pound.
—(Hear, hear.) Lest year, the cost of maintaining
the Irish casual poor brought a burden of more than
2s. Id. per head upon the whole population of that great
community; and it must be remembered that Manches-
ter was, at the time, suffering from great depression of
trade, caused by the high price of cotton, the panic of
1847, and the political convulsions on the continent of
Europe. To show the great increase of the amount re-
quired in Manchester for the relief of the Irish casual
poor, he might state that in 1845 it was 3,400/.; in 1846,
3,2001.; in 1847, 6,5001.; and IS4B, 28,0071. Now, the
people
of Manchester had not made clamorous com-
plaints against this heavy charge; but they did wish
Hon. Gentlemen opposite to see that they—in common
with other large towns, by whom the same burden had
to a greater or less extent been borne—had already
paid their share of the rate in aid for Ireland over and
over again; and they did think that, under these cir-
cumstances, it became the property of Ireland to find,
for a temporary period, the comparatively small sum
which the Government proposed to levy upon that
country.—(Hear.) The lion. Member for Londonderry
(Captain Bateson) had complained on Friday night of
the tyrannical conduct of those who called upon the op-
pressed proprietors of Ulster to pay this rate; but be
(Mr. Bright) found that the value of the rateable pro-
perty of Ulster was about 3,000,000/, and the sum that
county would be called upon to contribute to the rate in
aid would be about 82,000/. a year. For his own part,
had he been an Ulster proprietor, he would not have
raised his voice against this proposition, for the Ulster
proprietors were only called upon to do what had been
already done by others.—(Hear, hear.) It had been
said that Mr. Tvvisleton had resigned his office of Poor-
law Commissioner rather than carry out this rate in aid.
Now, the reason assigned by Mr. Twisletcn to the com-
mittee for his resignation was not that the system could
not be worked, but that Ulster was Ulster—that it
was tench more Ulster than Ireland—that Ulster did
not wish to be put together with Munster, Connaught,
and Leinster; but that it wished to be consi-
dered a portion of Great Britain rather than
a portion of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
if, by this Bill, they succeeded in making Ulster really a
portion of Ireland, a very happy result would be effected.
The Members of that House, and her Majesty's Ministers
had been charged with misgoverning Ireland, but he
would remind lion. Gentlemen who made this charge
that the course taken by Parliament with regard to Ire-
land for the last 100 years had been almost universally
in accordance with the wishes of the landed proprietors
of that country. The landed proprietors of Ireland, and
especially of the north of Ireleni, had had great power
in that House, and their advice had been too frequently
acted upon by the Government. He considered that the
political course taken by the people of Ulster had been
most fatal to the interests of Ireland; they had bought
Protestant ascendancy, and the price they had paid
for it had been the degradation and ruin of their
country.—(Hear.) He did not consider that it would be
advisable to substitute an income-tax for the rate in aid.
There were many Noble Lords and others residing in
this country who already paid income-tax upon their
Irish property, so that if the income-tax were applied to
Ireland, no extra burden would be thrown upon such
persons. In this case, as in others, whatever proposition
was made was sure to be the plan that was disliked; and
he had no doubt if the Government had proposed an in-
come-tax for Ireland it would have excited quite as
much hostility as the rate in aid.--(Hear.) The conclu-
sion to which he (Mr. Bright) came was either that the
malady of Ireland was incurable, or that there war, a
lamentable lack of statesmanship in that House. Com-
prehensive schemes had been ridiculed, and deservedly
in some respects, for they always came from the opposite
(the Opposition) side of the table. The Noble Lord (Lord
J. Russell) when ho was in opposition, had suggested com-
prehensive schemes, and he ( Mr. Bright) had wished to see
that Noble Lord in office that he might have an opportunity
of proposing ithose schemes. He supposed, however,
that the Noble Lord now found insuperable difficulties
in the way of doing so. The Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite (Sir Robert Peel) hat proposed another scheme
somewhat vaguely, but if the )Right Hon. Gentleman
could put it in shape and work it out for the regenera-
tion of Ireland, he (Mr. Bright) believed the universal
feeling of the House would be, that he should cross to
the Ministerial side and try his hand. Ile (Mr. Bright)
had great doubt whether the Noble Lord now at the
heed of the Government
would object to change places
with any Member of that House who would take in
hand andfom really
hear settle the Irish question.—(Hear,
, Lord
medics for John Russell and a laugh.) The re-
Irelarl)l(rd hitherto been !force and alms.
They had had 50 000 (leo med men in Ireland to keep the
peace, whit© on
other hand large votes of money
had been
poets had said—
mad to
,keep th© people alive. Ono of our
e
e The civil power may snoreease,
And soldiers fight to keep atthe peace."
"
And he suspected that Governments had e"beeeeh far too
peace they much disposed to rely upon the
couldd main-
tain in Ireland by the means placed at theetyr disposal by
that House, instead of grappling,uTusruags courageously with the
real difficulties of the question.
ctdeidd that the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government not con-
template any policy of that kind, or he would have stated
it to the House. He (Mr. Bright) considered it a gross
delusion to suppose that they could regenerate
Irel
by a poor-law or by a rate in aid. A poor-law added to
pauperism, because it was constantly inviting to idleness;

it dragged down those who paid rates, and demoralized
those who received them. In order to apply a remedy to
Ireland, they should know what was the matter with that
country. lie might say, as a general proposition, that
in Ireland nobody worked.—(A laugh.) Ho did nut
mean that many persons might n )t be industriously fol-
lowing their occupations, but Vtere was a general—an
almost universal—absence of labour; there was a want
of emp'oyment and wages. He met some time since
with an Irishman woraing as a navigator, and he asked
him how it was that his countrymen did not work in
their own country as they did in this? His re ply was,
"Give us 2s. Bd. a day, and you'd see whether we would
work."—(Hear, hear.) This was the great evil; there
was in Ireland a lamentable want of employment, and
consequently an extensive forced idleness. Ile might
mention to the House a fact which had come under his
observation, as showing the general poverty of Ireland,
He found that the legacy duty paid upon personal pro
perty in Great Britain in 1844 was upwards of
44,000,0001. The sum paid in Ireland in 1845 was only
2,140,0001. So that, although the population of Ireland
was nearly half that of Great Britain, it paid only one--
twentieth the amount of legacy duty. Ile found, al,o,
that although Ireland possessed a population three
times greater than that of Scotland, the legacy duty
paid by Ireland in 1844 was little more than two-
thirds the amount paid by Scotland. The re ports of
the inspectors to which the Right Hon. Member for
Tamworth had referred gave a lamentable picture ( f
the condition of Ireland. That unfortunate country
was in a state of ruin and disorganizetioa which it vres
almost impossible to describe. Ireland possessed capitatto
a considerable but still to a deficient extent ; but the
land was held under circumstances which made
it impossible that labour should be applied to it, and
that productiveness should result. The raw material of
the existence of the people was tied up. The legal en-
actments with regard to land made it a practical mono-
poly, which crushed not only the public, but also the
landowners, for whose especial benefit that monopaly
was supposed to exist.—(Hear, hear.) Why, he would
ask, should land be tied up more than any other raw
material ? They had a political system based on terri-
torial influences, and therefore the House feared to
touch the question of land, because it was apprehensive
of interfering with political considerations. He did not
see why political considerations should intervene in
dealing with questions connected with laud more than
in dealing with questions connected with cotton, and he
believed that nothing was more prejudicing England
as well as Ireland than the absurd and monstrous
system under which landed property in both
countries was held. One difficulty in dealing
with land was that arising out of defective titles, which
was not easy to be got over so lone as the present
system of entails was maintained. However, it was
a difficulty which the House might overcome, and
to which its early attention ought to be turned. He
would next advert to the question of settlements. He
was not about to say that settlements should be pre-
vented by law, and that a man should not be able to
make special provision for various members of his family
but there was in the system of strict settlement bound up
under the system of entail that which was productive of
immense evil to land and of discord and litigation in
families. The practice brought about a constant acces-
sion of incunabrances of one kind or another, until the
largest property, together with the family interests, be-
came bankrupt under a load from which they could not
escape. Irish gentlemen were suffering also from ano-
ther cause. They had been peculiarly extravagant. It
was said that they kept more horses and dogs than were
usually kept by persons of the same means in England.
Now, he had no objection to their spending money as
they pleased, but if they did spend it they could not
expect to have it too; and they could not expect
that Parliament was always to step in and relieve
them from difficulties.—(Hear, hear.) If the young
gentlemen in Ireland, instead of remaining in the unen
viable state of waiting for a commission, were to get rid
of a little of the pride of family and of ancestry and ap-
ply themselves to business or some honest occupation, in
which they would have an opportunity of raising them-
a. lees by their talents, it would be much Letter for the
country, anti their positions would be less humiliating
than at present. Another evil in Ireland arose out of the
great number of persons having only a life interest in
the property which they held. They could not sell the
property, and they had no motive to improve the value
of the land, as any expenditure for that purpose might
only be remunerative after their interest had expired.
Thus the raw material was bound up and labour left un-
employed; and the result was that widely prevailing
poverty now complained of. As population and pauper-
ism inc a se I, the landlords, through the means of evict-
ments and ejeettnents endeavoured, as by a convulsive
effort, to rid themselves of the evils by which they were
surrounded; and hence arose a social war, and that inse•
curity to life and property which had so extensively pre-
vailed. What was the remedy for this etato of things?
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government pro-
posed *no plan, and neither had he ner any
other Member of the Administration made any
speech in the course of the session from which any en-
larged scheme of policy might be hoped fur in the pre-
sent session, or early next session. He thought the
Noble Lord had not acted wisely in not paying more im-
mediate attention to the question as to what should be
done in future for the population of Ireland. The Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth had proposed a plan, which
he some. time before hinted at, to the surprise of every-
body, and to the delight of not a few. On Friday last
the Right Hon. Baronet explained his plan with some-
'shat more distinctness, but he (.11r. Bright) doubted
a bother it was in that state that it could be laid before
the House in that detailed shape requisite previous to its
adoption. He admired the end which the Right lion.
Baronet sail he had in view, and sumac portion of the
means by which he would carry it out, but he confessed
with reluctance that it appeared to his mind at present
in an impracticable form. Ile only trusted that Irish-
men would not suppose that everything was to be set
right in their country by a commission, or they would
be clinging more than ever to a remnant of property
in b enlirupt estates, and fuel kr,ater hesitation
to take steps in the direction in which the Right
Him. Baronet wished them to proceed. The
Right Hon. Baronet said he did not desire the
transfer of property to take place by individual barter, or
that the matter should proceed in its natural course, by
which land should bee me unnaturally cheap. Now, he
should like to know whether a man would go to Ireland
to buy land unless the cheapness compensated for all the
other disadvantages to be met with there? There could
be no redemption fur Ireland by a transfer of land unless
by land taking its natural course, and becoming so cheap
that capitalists in England, Scotland, and Ireland would
seize is with all its disadvantages.—(lronical cries of
" Hear.") By seizing it he meant that they would
seize with avidity in that case, as in others, a favour-
able opportunity of investing their capital. He believed
that much Irish capital would go to the south and west
of Ireland to be invested in land if the measures which
were proposed, and the ends which the Right lion.
Baronet had in view, were facilitated by that House.—
The Hon. Member here alluded to the distressed state
of Stockport in 1842, observing that property in that place
was then depreciated to a lamentable extent, and that
many thousands of persons left the town. About half the
manufacturers failed, and property changed hands, pass-
ing into the possession of persons of inure substantial
means. This transfer of property was no doubt a painful
process, but it must be submitted to under such circum-
stances; and he thought that in the present state of Ire-
land it was the duty of the House not to interfere with
the ordinary and natural course of things. What he
wanted was, that Parliament should remove every ob.
stacle to the free sale of land ; and therein lay the only
security to be had for the restoration to prosperity of
the present distressed districts in Ireland. The question
of a Parliamentary title was most important, hut he had
been informed by a legal authority that the difficulty
therein arose from entails to persons beyond those now
living. Another matter requiring alteration related to
intestate estates. He dist nut want a change of the law of
primogeniture, so that there should be a subdivision of
property here, as in France. If a man chose to act ab-
surdly, and leave all his property to one child out of
many, he would not interfere to prevent him by law;
but, where a man died without tnalsng a will, it was the
duty of Parliament to enact that the property left should
be divided equally among the heirs.—(llear.) If the system
of leaving the property to the eldest son were followed
out among the middle classes, and in regard to personal
property, it would lead to speedy confusion.—(Hear.)
Although the alteration of the law which ho (Mr.
Bright) desired to see would not in itself destroy the
practice, Parliament would cease to give its sanction to
it, and gradually the owners of property would form a
more just appreciation of their duty as testators.—
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the owners of life in-
terests, they ought to have power to grant leases, not at
low rents in consideration of great fines, bat upon such
terms as would not defraud their successors; and they
should be allowed to charge the estate with sums ex-
pended in really beneficial improvements.—(Hear, hear.)
With respect to a registry of deeds, we had the Ordnance
survey already, and it had been estimated that the ne-
cessary survey for a perfect registry would cost but about
9(1. an acre, and to engrave the plans could be no great
addition to that cost; while, besides the advantage to
thye isr)itarb.lisce,niitorwa_s considered, and had been so stated
add to the .glue luhoeofbelieved,
landthat a registry would
or nine year,'
might be reducnirc the by as much as eight
ffhooarse.somTeheyesatrasm, pauddutiiens, too,faut
cleisliitnytog:lvaeol:e that ,e,evnertyhafna
letting land got from insol-
vent
use it profitably. Then
as to the waste lands of Ireland,divide
Government might
take them at a valuation and di them into
various tese moderatep ar t estates, which would tempt purchaseertshf;r
cei
eau
trriefo
of the United Kingdona.—(Hear, hear.
to be the only means of attracting capital teoeaErpre)
How could the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
do that by fixing a maximum rate? Why, there was a
time when there was no rate, and that did not attract
capital,—(Eiear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet (Sir
R. Peel) spoke about emigration. llis remarks ou vo-
luntary emigration seemed rather unwise; things that
were done voluntarily were not always done well, neither
were things that were done by the Government.—(Hear,
hear.) But what was the relation of population to the
land of Ireland? In the reports on the table it was
stated with regird to Clifden, that the resources of the
union, if made available, would be amply sufficient for
the support of its population.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Ha-
milton said the same of Donegal and Glenties, if culti-
vated according to the average of English counties; and
Mr. Twisleton considered that the land of Ireland would
maintain twice its present population.—(Hear, hear.) It
cost a good deal to send a family to Australia or Canada;
why not employ the money at home?—(Bear, hear.)
Let it not be said that he (Mr. Bright) was proposing
schemes which would be a great interference with the
rights of property. There could not be a greater inter-
ference with the true rights of property than the laws
now regulating real estate; and in the districts to which
the Right lion. Baronet referred the property in labour
of 4,000,000 of people was almost totally destroyed.
But let the landlords of Ireland say whether the state in
which they had been living was not worse than anything

he proposed?—(blear, beer.) Nor let it be said that he
weall injure aristocratical and territorial influence.
What were these worth now?—(Hear, hear.) What
was Ireland itself worth ?—(llestr, hear.) Was it not
to the whole world the symbol and token of our dis
grace—( hear, hear) —and to an overtaxed people the
source of amazing expense?—(Hear, hear.) Or was it
said that we should weaken the union? Why, there had
been no honest attempt yet to make a union with Ire-
land; we had had a union with Ulster, but never with the
whole of Ireland.—(blear, hear.) Surely, if ever there
was a great opportunity for a statesman, it was the pre-
sent.—(Loud cheers.) This was undoubtedly " the
hour " and we wanted " the man."—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had done
many things for his country, and had shown upon some
occasions as much courage as in the state of public
opinion it was necessary for a statesman to show ; but
on this Irish question he seemed to shrink from fairly
meeting the difficulty.--(Hear, hear.) Yet the charac-
ter of his Government was at stake; he could not in his
po-ition—be he as well intentioned as he might—defend
himself to hi t country, to the world, to posterity, if
he remain.d tit the head of this Inperial Le-
gislature and still was unable or un killing to
bring forward measures for the recovery of
Ireland.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head
of the Administration of affairs in Ireland, too, must re-
collect, that it was not the highest effort of statesman-
ship to keep the peace in a country where very few
men were anxious to go to war, and when he had 50,000
armed men, and the whole power of this kiugd me to
back him—(llcar, hear)—if that distinguished nobleman
intereled to be known as a statesman with regard to his
rule in Ireland, he must be prepared with measures of a
much more practical and directly operative character
tean any lie had yet initiated.—(Hear, hear.) Let that
great subscription be remembered which was raised
three years ago for Ireland, when there came funds from
the uttermost parts of the earth—from the Pope and
the Grand Signior, from Red Indians in North America,
and from slaves in C trolina; what could we say to all
those contributors, who must be anxious to know whe-
ther anything had been done to prevent the recurrence
of such a calamity?—(Hear.) We must acknowledge to
them that our boasted constitution utterly failed to
grapple with this question. Talk not of our country hav-
ing had peace while so many thrones in Europe had been
overturned; tell up all the lives lost by the convulsions
of the part year in Europe, the cessation of trade, the
ruin of industry, the breaking of hopes and of hearts,
and it could not be compared for an instant with the
agonies that had been endured by our own population
under our " glorious constitution."—(Hear, hear.) Let
us beware of laying the calamity at the door of " Pro-
vidence." The promises of God were not withdrawn;
there was still sunshine and shower, seed time and har
vest; the affluent bosom of the earth yet offered suste-
nance for man. But man must do his part.—(Hear.)
We must do ours.—(Hear, hear.) We must abandon
the errors and the crimes of our past legislation. We
must free the land—(Hear' hear)—and we should find
that it was upon industry, hopeful and remunerative,
free and inviolate, that we must build, as on a sure
foundation, a permanent edifice of union and peace.—
(Much cheering.)
The Marquis of GRANBY concurred in much of
what had been advanced in the very able speech to
which the House had just been listening. (Hear, hear.)
The Government had neither come forward with a great
and comprehensive scheme upon their own responsi-
bility, nor waited for the report of the committee, but
had proposed a temporary palliative, whose effects, how-
ver it might be feared, would be lasting.—(Hear.)
The cases of England and Ireland were not at all simi-
lar, as had been alleged. If the rate in-aid were levied
in England it would be raised on all property; but such
was not the case in Ireland. Another case was, that in
England the arrears of poor-rate were merely leviable
upon a tenant for the time of his occupancy, whereas in
Ireland the tenant was liable for all the arrears of rate,
no matter for how long a time they had accumulated.
Ho would now say ono word on that most im-
portant point, the valuation on which it was proposed
to charge this rate. Suppose a farm was valued
at 100/. and let for the same sum, the amount charged
would be 5/., of which the landlord would pay one-
half and the tenant the other. So far the arrangement
was perfectly fair. But suppose that, instead of 1001.,
the farm was valued at 50/., his rent remaining the
same; there would still be 51. payable for the poor-
rate, or 2s. in the pound. The farmer would deduct Is-
a pound from his rent of 100/„ ane thus the landlord
would have to pay the whole instead of one-half of the
poor-rate. Reverse the process, and then the farmer
would be the sufferer. The present valuation was
most unequal; and Mr. Griffiths had stated that a true.
valuation would not be made out till the end of 1851,
the very period when the rate in aid was to cease.—
(Hear, hear.) He regretted that government intended
to make no effectual improvement in the Irish poor-
law, and that they would not consent to the only
change that would make the rate in aid pelateable—
vie , a diminution of the area of taxation. The
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) imagined that such
a diminution would increase the number of evictions;
bat it had been clearly shown that it would rather lessen
the number of evictions. Equally erroneous was the
idea that it would tend to reduce the people to a state of
serfdom. Ho had, however, no hesitation in saying,
that call him by what name they pleased, the man who
was employed at labour in the open air was an infl-
nite!y superior and more elevated and enlightened being
than the man who was shut up within the tour walls of a
workhouse. He was surprised at the tone and manner
in all:eh the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tam.
worth ief. rred to the law of 1846. It was a strange
boast to make that in consequence of that law the Go-
sere meet had been enabled to keep body and soul toge-
ther of 100,000 people. If they had passed the measure
proposed by his late lamented friend (Lord G. Bentinck)
for encouraging railways, they would nut have had to
keep body and soul together of 100,000 starving wretches.
On the very day the Right lion. Baronet made his
speech a letter was written from Dublin containing a
most deplorable account of the progress of destitution
throughout certain portions of Connaught. (The Noble
Lord then read a letter of a Dublin correspondent,
inn which a gentleman named Hilles, writing from New-
port, stated, en the authority of a person offinially con-
nected with the district, that fully 1,000 lives must be
lost by starvation within the coming month.) The only
advantage, as it appeared to him, which had been derived
from the repeal of the Bill of 1846 was the importation
of Indian meal free of duty; but would it not have been
a wiser course for the Government, when the crisis ar-
rived, to have abolished the 103. duty on Indian meal,
and have maintained the duty on every other descrip-
tion of grain? He agreed that it was essentially neces-
sary that a cereal crop should be substituted for the cul-
tivation of the potato, but that could only be done by
converting small cottiers-into farm labourers. But how
could they expect those labourers to be employed unless
remunerating prices were secured to the cultivator?
The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that he could
not support the }shin of her Majesty's Government, as
he considered it both impolitic and unjust, and that
if it were pissed into a law it would reduce the whole
people of Ireland to one universal level of misery and
degradation.

Mr. C. FORTESCUE felt it his duty to vote against
the measure of her Majesty's Government. He ad-
mitted that Ireland ought at this juncture to make very
extraordinary cif ats, but he wished those effarts to be
made by means of another species of tax. He was de-
sirous to see en income-tax imposed upon Ireland for
HAI purposes, and bearing upon every description of
Irish property. This rate in aid was partial, and there-
fore unjust, as it would fall o t one class of persons only.
Some Hoe. Gentlemen, however, in opposing this mea-
sure, had taken up a principle for the occasion which
they might hereafter find to be very inconvenient.
They had argued that there should be an entire fusion
and assimilation of Ireland with England. This was a
principle against which he must protest. He could not
help thinking that they ought to rid themselves of a poor
law and a poor-rate altogether. He looked upon this as a
great national emergency, in which the possessors of all
kinds of property ought to be called upon to exert them-
selves. Suppose a foreign enemy were threatening Ireland
at this moment the House would not think of calling
upon the possessors of one kind of property alone to
supply the funds necessary to meet that emergency.
They would adopt an income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) But
it was said that if the Government had proposed an in-
come-tax in place of a rate in aid, it would have met with
as bad a reception as the present proposal. He did not
agree in that. He did not mean to say it would have
been received with acclamation either in Ireland or in
that House ; but he thought it would been felt to have
much more fairness about it than the proposal of a rate
in aid.—(Hear, hear.) It had also been said that a rate
in aid would be much easier collected than an income-
tax, inasmuch as no new machinery would need to be
created. But as they were told that sooner or later they
would be saddled with an income-tax, he did not see why
they should not have anticipated that necessity, and
Lave imposed it now. With respect to the rate in aid
being more easily collected, ho imagined that if the Go-
vernment had introduced the measure under that belief
they must, by this time, have found out their mistake.—
(Hear, hear.) For those reasons ho would give his vote
against the proposition of the Government.
When the Hon. Gentleman resumed his seat some
amusement was created by the fact of about a score of
Members rising simultaneously with the view of fol-
lowing him in the debate. The Speaker, however,
called upon
Mr. DISRAELI, who said that the Hon. Member for
Manchester (Mr. Bright), in a speech which—although
he agreed as little with the Hon. Gentleman as probably
any Member in that House—he had listened to with the
greatest p'easure and gratification, as he must do to
every demonstration of intellect which sustained the
dthe b stee s suipoont ofth Pe as rulbi
jaeme et notr ftohret
ahffi sa
ryse
oa rf
Ireland.
reputation of that assembly—(Cheers)—had described
selaannda.djolutrwneads
his (11r. Disraeli's) wish, before the House adjourned,
to succeed, if possik,le, in terminating that debate, and
bringing their deliberations to some practical conclu-
sion. During the various discussions to which the
lion. Gentleman referred, and in which he (Mr Disraeli)
and the friends with whom he had the pleasure to
co-operate had been oblivel perhaps too frequently to
interfere, they had on every occasion, when they had
been forced to criticise the propositions of Government,
told them they were ready to agree to any arrangement
that was necessary from the circumstances in which they
were called upon to vote; but what they demanded as a
principle, indeed a primary condition was, that the Go-
vernment should come forward and give some assurance
to the Home and the country that their temporary pro-
posals were not to be continued for ever.—(Bear.) How
was that movement received by the Government and by
individuals very justly influential in that House? The
Government persisted for a long time in the course with
which they originated the session. They persisted that
it was not only ncecssary.but politic to come down to the
House of Commons and make a propo:dtion for a