The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-05 00:00:00

•
been greatly overlooked ; a due balance of power and a
just proportion of influence ought to have been pre-
teemed in the Commons' House of Parliament, which are
absolutely necessary, not only for the welfare and pros-
perity of the country, but for the safety and existence
of the Constitution. Here, my Lords, let me state one
of the most insuperable objections I feel to this measure.
I have alieedy said that I am willing to go the length of
g iving Members to large manufacturing towns—they have
separate local interests; but I am by no means ptepared
to give my consent to that part of the Bill which gives
new representatives to places anti districts which have no
separate local interests, and whose interests I defy any man
to skew me have not been duly represented and fairly pro-
tected in the present state of the representation. I refer
to such places as Woolwich, Deptford, Greenwich, the
Tower Hamlets, Blarylebone, and Finsbury.--(Cheers.)
My opinions are not new---I have long entertained them,
after the most mature reflection. I declared myself a lie-
former when first I entered your Lordships' House, and I
am a Reformer still ; but I maintain that the opinion I
have just stated would he aupported by nine-tenths of the
bankers, merchants, and tradesmen of this great eP..y. Do
we not all know, without their evidence, that the preva-
lence of political excitement at the return of a general
election has always materially tended to reduce their wealth
end injure their prosperity?--(Cheers.) If we pee this
Bill it is my firm belief that the state of the oily of Lon-
don would soon resemble the melan'ch'oly condition of
Paris, where the population is kept in a constant state of
ferment and agitation.—(Hear.) In that unhappy capitals
total star netion of trade and commerce prevails, and I fer-
vently implore your Lordships to have the PAernness and the
wisdom to save the metropolis of Great Britain from this great
calamity. I feel that I hwe already occupied too touch time,
but there is one point more to which I must take tlm
lilsety of adverting. I have stated the points of the Pill
of which I disapprove, and I now come to the ttnestion
what vote I shall give? If I did not 'consider the objec-
tions I have already stated, of a most insuperable charac-
ter., I should still find elsewhere in the measure clauses of
which, under no circumstances, I could approve. I object
to the right of voting given to the occupiers of land of the
low rent of 501. a-year, because I think 'such a class of
men must be open to the worst speties of influence. I
object to the right of voting given even to certain occu-
piers of houses of 50/. a-year, especially in the counties ad-
joining London, and particularly in that in width I chiefly
reside. I believe that the constituency to he thus derived
from towns like Margate, Ramsgate*, and Tunbridge-wells
persons who have not the slightest connection with the
county, who are resident this year and non-resident the
next, will overbear, if not overwhelm, the wholesome
constituency of the county. As the ten-pound franchise
clause originally stood, I thought it infinitely too low; it
was too low when it was a bona ftde yearly rent of 101.
in the parish books, where the houses are usually rated at
about two-thii ds of their actual rent. But, my Lords, if
I thought this objectionable as it stood in the Bill intro-
(Need into the last Parliament, how much more objec-
tionable do I find it in the present measure, where a right
of voting is given to an individual who only pays a weekly
rent, provided be has occupied the same dwelling for a cer-
tain period.. Tam fully satisfied that this claim, as it now
stands, is in itself a much greater abuse—a much greater
via/otiose of the just principles of representation than any
which- the measure professes to correcte—(Cheere.) This
provision will create, and, indeed, has already created, as
could be proved by evidence at your Lordships' Bar, a
wholesale manufaCture of fictitious votes.—(Hear, hear.)
In many populous places, and especially in this great me-
tropolis, every man who nightly shelters himself in his
hovel, and pays for it only a rent of 3s. Id. per week, will
enjoy the right of voting for Members of Parliament.
What does this amount to ? I say that it amounts in fact
to universal suffrage.—(Much cheering.) Then I will
ask Noble Lords to what conclusion I must come ? Here
let ine remark once more, for it cannot be too strongly
impressed upon the minds of your Lordships, that if in
legislating upon this important question you take one false
step, that step can never be retraced.—(Loud cheers from
the Opposition side.) lam ready to allow that an undue
degree of influence may lie given to the Crown—that art
'unconstitutional power may be usurped by this House. These
ere evils capable of correction ; but once give too much
rower into the hands' of the people and I defy the " fore-
most man of all the world"—the greatest and boldest
statesman that ever existed, to deprive them of that
power. The conclusion I come to, then, is this : if this
clause be pas:ed, the just balance of power between
the three estates, the equilibrium which forms the
beauty and symmetry of the Constitution, will at once
be overthrown.—(Cheers.) What then would become of
that Constitution which has raised this country to the loftiest
pinnacle of glory, and has given a degree of power and
prosperity unknown to any nation of the new or the old
world.—(Hear, bear.) That equilibrium once over-
thrown can never be restored. It may be said of me that
I am no Reformer, because I shall vote against this Bill.
I deny it. I have stated my views of Rtform, and I
will pledge my existence that nine-tenths of the people of
Kent, at least, prefer those views to the ill-digested measure
of the Noble Earl and his coadjutors. When I consider
the undue influence used to carry this Bill—(Hear)—
when I consider what efforts have been made to destroy
the independence of this House—(Continued cheers.)._
when I consider my total want of confidence in his Majesty's
present advisers, I may truly say, that I cannot but be
aware that I stand on the brink of destruction ; but the
only chance of standing securely is to stand firmly.—
(Much cheering.) 1 honestly and fearlessly say that I will
vote against this Bill. I vote against it not as the enemy,
hut as the friend of that Constitution, for which I am
ready, if necessary, to lay down my life. I know
that in stating that I am a Reformer to a con
siderable extent, I differ from many of my Noble
Friends ; but I am as thoroughly convinced that some
change is necessary, as I am satisfied this Bill is not
necessary. It has been over and over again asked, " What
will the Lords do?" I answer, that they will honestly.
conscientiously, and fearlessly, discharge their duty—
(Cheers)—to their King, to their country, and to their
God.—(Cheers.) To that King, whose honour and dig•
pity it is our bounden duty as well as our anxious wish
to support ; to that country, for whose welfare we are
prepared to niake every sacrifice ; to that God, who hes
greatly protected this kingdom, and who will continue to
protect it if we remain true to our principles.—(Cheers.)
These are times when we should look to the principles
actuating other States, and especially that State which has.
proved the curse of Europe.—(Hear, Lear.) That State
which has no principle, and is governed by no principle.
It is time for us to see faction in that unhappy country,
striking at the root of all society, and to be aware that the
same principles have reached our oven shores. It is time
for us to see a spirit of anarchy abroad under the mask of
a corrector of abuses.—(Cheers.) It is time for us to see
that the ship of the State is in danger—that she has been
deserted by those who ought to have preserved her ; she is
surrounded by rocks, and unless your Lordships remain
steadily at your post, she must strike, and become a wreck
What! let me ask you, will become of the aristocracy of
England if once they lose the respect of their country ?
(Cheers from the Opposition ride, re-echoed from
the Ministerial benches.) I do not envy the man who
can abandon the vessel of the State at such a mo-
ment of peril : I do not envy him his sleepless nights, or
the stings of a wounded conscience. To you, my Lords,
I appeal, in whose veins the pure blood of a long line of
Noble ancestors, mantles with an invigorating current.
Remember your high stations, your high duties, and prove
yourselves worthy of your forefathers.—(Cheers.) You
have justly earned the honour you beer—assert your in-
dependence.—throw out this Bill, and entitle yourselves
to the good wishes of your contemporaries, and to the
gratitude of posterity. Do not forget that you are
called upon to act in perilous times, and display that cool-
ness and courage which becomes a period of peril. I do
not pretend to the historical learning of the Noble Earl,
nor would I wish to possess it, if it is to teach me not to
take warning by the sufferings of other nation.. He has
alluded to the French Revolution ; but the impression left
by it upon my mind, is far different from that stated by.
the Noble Earl. I should say, that a base spirit of con-
cession was there the destruction of the Aristocracy, and
that submission to intimidation brought the unhappy
Louis to the scaffold.—e(Much cheering.) An appeal has
been made by the Noble Earl to the clergy. We look to
the Prelates in our time of .need ; we call upon them tip
help us in the great and glorious work of saving our
country.—(Much cheering.) I feel the utmost confidence in
their exalted characters, and I know that every virtue that
adorns human nature shines forth in their every action. On
this occasion, let those virtues shine with double lustre.
if-once this Bill goes to a Committee, there is an end of
this House.--(Cheers.) I have done, nay Lords, and I
thank you for the kindness with which you have beard
me. It this Bill be rejected, I hope it will be succeeded ,
I
by a different measure—although, to point of form, it
cannot originate here--whiehwill not be liable to the same
objections; for I fairly admit that there exists a strong
feeling in favour of Reform, and the expectations of the
country ought not to be disappointed but
tlotsootally
the
that there exists generally a
disposition
h Bill. Prc4
Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but t e .
The Earl of HARROWV begun by apologising. for
who had risen
taking precedenne of the Earl of Rosebery, d
ues-
at the same time. He was unwilling to allow the cl
tion to be decided without some expression of opinion on
his part, and personal indisposition would render it jai-

possible for him to address the House at a later hour.
The House had been told, from the highest authority, that
it must yield—that the people Must be satisfied, and that
they would not be content with any less extensive mea•
sure. This, too, had been said by a Noble Earl in a tone
which be (Lord no would not venture to characterise as
a menace, because the Noble Earl had so repeatedly dis-
claimed any intention of the kind, as if lee had good ground
for apprehending that many parts of his speeches would be
liable to that constrnetion. Such declarations seemed to show
an impression on his mind that the deliberations of the
House were intended to be overawed.—(Mttch cheering.)
He wished to debate this question with as much coolness
and calmness as possible, coafsideling that the Constitu-
tion of the country was at stake, and he would advert
first to the personal interest which many Noble Lord* were
supposed to 'slave adverse to the measure. It bad been
admitted by the Noble Earl that the privilege of nomina-
tion to seats in the HoaSSe of Commons did not belong to
their Lordships as Peers, and that it was shared by them
individuals in various ranks and occupations. The
'same remark would also apply to intiluence in counties,
should they ever be diehdet% as proposed by the Bill
upon the tables tie fact, however, was, that those
who were 'nick-named boroughmongers, and iron were
!aid by some to be constantly preying 'upon the vitals of
the country, were by no nrestris a united body; and that,
as upon most great 'questions, nominees were found in
about equel proportions on both sides, it was satisfactory
to knoaar that only one-half the number was Usually
preying upon the vitals of the county ea the same moment.
—(Cheers and laughtero He (Lord Harrowby) had
been included in the list n those who possessed Parliamen-
tary infltrenete And he wished to take this opportunity
of settiete himself rectos in curia. Nearly a centtity ago
hie grandfather, then Solicitor-Genera% had been returned
for the borough of Tivertott, and in his legal capa-
city be had done it esame service, and had formed a
personal int;tesacy with many of the resident merchants
and fktiiilies. That interest had descended to his
(tord Harrowby's) father, and when he came of age,
he, like his father, had been elected to represent the
Corporation. In 15V the borough, on the death of
one Member, proposed to choose his (Lord Harrowby's)
younger brother, then at the bar, and his father had
doubted extremely the policy of thus diverting him from
his legal pursuits. From that time to the present, a pe-
riod of 36 years, the same influence bad been preserved,
anti he hoped that the fri sully connection would descend
to his children. During the whole period of that con-
nection, neither lie nor his ancestors had owned an acre
or land within one hundred miles of the borough, and not
a single voter or inhabitant was indebted to him a single
shilling.—(Cheers.) Yet he should have heard without
the slightest alarm that a couple of Nabobs, with 20,000/.
each, had gone down to canvass the voters. The connec-
tion was merely that of mutual kindness and regard, and
he owned that lie should not be deprived of it by this Bill
or otherwise without the most sincere regret. Neverthe-
less, he was bold to assert, that it would not have the
slightest influence on his vote; and he had alluded to the
circumstance merely in illustration of the sort of disinte-
rested connection which many other Noble Lords main-
tained with other. boroughs.—(Cheers.) Another part of
the Noble Earl's speech (continued his Lordship) con-
sisted of a needless vindication of his own consistency. In
different Houses of Parliament, from the first moment of
his political life, the Noble Earl has unquestionably been
an advocate for Parliamentary Reform ; but I had appre-
hended that his ideas upon that question had of late
years been somewhat narrowed : I had thought, after
the zeal and warmth of youth had subsided, that the
Nob'e Earl, in maturer life, had adopted nations of
a less general and sweeping character.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Earl denied all intention of proceeding upon abstract
principles of right—the only right he acknowledged, he
said, was the right of the people to be well governed.—
To that doctrine I most cordially subscribe ; but then I
contend, that those who set about forming a Government
for the people ought to take care that they establish such
a system as will ensure good government.—(Cheers.) If
my memory could be trusted, I think that I could make
the best speech that ever was delivered in or out of Par-
liament in favour of this Bill, simply by putting together
the speeches and writings of men who are now titbir the
opponents or the supporters of Reform.—(Hear.) Do 1
say this because I wish to reproach any man for changing
his opinion ?—I should be ashamed of such a paltry
argumentam ad liontinena ; but when I consider the weight
and authority of persons who have spoken and written,
and who now tell us they were mistaken, I think we have
a right to demand from them more than from others
a full and satisfactory statement of the grounds upon
which they have abandoned their former opinions.
It is not a vague declamation about what we consider the
rights of man—it is not a vague declamation about the sup-
posed deficiencies of our present Constitution, or about the
possible conveniences of another—it is not that, but if grave
and statesmanlike exhibition of those reasons which have in-
duced them, the proposers of this Bill, to believe that
another mode of Government, to be formed under the provi-
sions of this Bill, will be better for the country than the mode
of Government under which it now exists. I say, my Lords,
that that is the sort'of argument which I have a right to expect'
from the Noble Lord, much more than that sort of argu-
ment which he did, in fact, bring forward.—( Hear.)
There is one reason which he has stated, and which he
seems to think is sufficient for all the purposes of advocat-
ing this Bill,and sufficient, too, as an answer to all the 6-
iections against it, and that is that this Bill, or a meoure
of (evil efficiency, is that which cannot, and which ought
not to be resisted. The Noble Earl has told us that the
coincidences of the French revolution threw the minds of
the people into a considerable degree of perturbation on
this subject; that this question of Reform had thrown
out some scintillations before that event; but upon its
.iccurrence, the embers in which it lay were raked up, and
through that unhappy coincidence burst forth into a blaze.
ft was subsequent to that event that the two Houses of
Parliament, if not absolutely nonine contradicente, at least
without much opposition, declared that they were fully
.ensible of the blessings of the happy Constitution under
which they lived, and which had for so many years con.
fared such manifest, such unequalled advantages upon the
country. Now, however, it seems that the feeling has so
much changed, that so far from the people being sensible
the blessings they enjoy under this Constitution, they
have an anxious desire that it should he changed. The
Noble Earl said that observing this, and being anxious to
introduce a measure that should satisfy what he deemed
the just wishes of the people, he considered most care-
fully whether any such treasure could be produced—
whether any plan could he brought forward—or u Nether the
of in formerly proposed by a Noble Person in the other
House of Parliament could be safely and prudently adopted.
On this last point he came to the conclusion that no such
plan as that would be sufficient to satisfy the peeple. My
Lords, the Noble Earl much underratts his own powers if
he thinks he could not have framed a measure different
from this, and yet fully capable of satisfying the wishes of
the people ; if he thinks that at this time he was bound
consistently with his duty to recommend such a plan as
this to the consideration of Parliament. I will not spe-
culate on what might have happened had he thought other-
wise : but I must say, that I believe he would have been
fully able to concilitate a snore grateful and solid support
to his Administration, and would have disarmed as large
proportion of those who now oppose this plan, because
they think that this change must carry with it the cause
of further changes, had lie proposed a different measure
than by bringing forward, as he has done, that which he
has thought fit to call a hold measure of Reform.—(Hear,
hear.) My Lords, in that epithet I agree—(Cheers)—so
hold a measure never was brought forward by any man.—
(Cheers from Lord Londonderry.) Your Lordships will
not expect that I should fatigue you or myself by going
through the history of all other countries; but I ask on
what plan of Reform they proceeded ? I wish they would
point out a measure which, in point of extent, or im-
portance of consequence, ever (quelled this measure.
It -is on account of the extent of the measure that
the Noble Earl thinks the people will be satisfied with
it. I confess I do not think that that is a circum-
stance which will recommend this measure to the favourable
adoption of this. House. The speech of the Noble Earl
has been, with only one exception, directed to bring to the
notice of your Lordships a few prominent features of the
defects of the present system. On that object he has em-
ployed hie eloquence and ability, such as he must always
display on any occasion of the kind, and has directed them
both in strong and direct attacks upon the whole system of
the nomination boroughs. I have not strength, nor have
I bad enough diligence to go back to those periods to
which the Noble Earl has alluded, as offering the instances
of elections pure front this system of nomination, periods
to which the Noble Earl proposes to restore us. Remem-
bering, however, what the Noble Earl has said on that
point, again I express my desire that either be or some of
the supporters of this measure will point out the time at
which the Constitution of this country bore any resem-
blance to what it will be under the operation of this Bill.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) In this unlimited attack on the
influence
eenibcreut in
which
consequence
propertyinudividuals possess—not by virtue of their
po
upon
theof r
representation
accidentalenta tion
of
fcircumstancesthe
—I defy them to point out a period at which the traces of
that influence are not found to have existed.—(Hear,
ltiheoarri) T
ties
on this
Earl has
jethavestated
deemed thatc allha he
change
gte of greatthi u-
s sorta
advisable. There are some which 4 could quote to the

Noble earl, who Were of a different opinion—some, too,
*hose opinions will be deemed by all as well deserving of
credit. I name Mr. Pitt, when time and experience had
matured his judgment. I name Mr. Burke, Mr.Wyndhatn,
and, lastly, Mr. Canning. Can I mention the names of men
who, united with great knowledge of politics and extraor-
dinary talents a greater degree of knowledge of human na-
-1 ture, and of the actstal workings of human society? Yet
they were all men who found their way into Parliament
through these torought; and who deemed the preservation
of theSe boroughs 'necessary for the purposes for which
'they thenetaves had thitS employed them.—(Hear, hear.)
I assert, my Lords; with little fear of contradiction, that
'nearly, withoht exception, all the men who have made a
disting'aisbed figure in Parliament, first found their way
there through the medium of these boroughs.—(Hear,
hear.) That was not an immaterial circumstance, unless
you can show me that under the new Constitution the
entrancie of Minh persons into Parliament will not be more
slitcuft. These boroughs are admitted to have been useful
in the early period of the Constitution; but it is said that
the time of 'their usefulness no longer exists—that there
has been a change in the times, and that these institutions
'MO to change with those. changes. There has been a
change in the times, and a change too in the manners of
the world; hut is it shown that when these boroughs no
longer exist, there will be no inconvenience felt from their
loos ? That assertion cannot truly be made. This, then,
My Lords, is one of those instances which perfectly prove
the true philosophy of Mr. Fox, when he said that the
practice of our Constitution was admirable, but the theory
of it was absurd.—(Hear, hear.) Yet we are now
called upon to bring back these absurdities of theory,
and to throw aside, at the same time, all those
benefits which the country has hitherto derived from
the practical working of the Constitution, and
which has been found to be admirable. I have
now come, ray Lords, to the old story, and I am afraid that
if not ungrateful to your Lordships, it may be so to that
wider assembly which may, perhaps, bear something of
what we are now saying, that we ought not to make
changes in our Constitution because it has worked well.
There was a time, my Lords, when that eulogy of the
Constitution would have sounded well in the ears of the
teople.—(Hear, hear.) It is an eulogy that has been re-
peated in all ages of the world—(Hear, hear)—it has been
proclaimed by the philosopher and the statesman, and echoed
by the people—(Hear)—and yet we are now told that
we are not now to receive it as deserving of our sanction.
We are desired, on the contrary, to say to the people—fo it
is all a mistake for you to fancy yourselves great, g'orious,
or happy, or that you are the best governed people in the
world—it is a mistake to fancy that you enjoy blessings
under your Government—you enjoy none, and you are the
most ill-governed people under the sun, and at the present
moment your sufferings are dreadful." Are we to address
them in such language?—is it true? and if they leave the
shelter of that Constitution under which they have so
long found protection and security, will this Bill provide
them with a great advantage, or will it not, on the con-
trary, increase those evils which are now so much depre-
cated ? When our legislative assemblies come no longer
to govern, hut to be governed, and governed too by
those numerous assemblies of another description which
have recently been formed in the north, and especially
at Birmingham, when they come with their directions for
our conduct thundering over our heads ; what, I ask,
will be the kind of Government then presiding over the
interests of the country ? Shall we have fewer taxes in
consequence of this measure ? have even its advocate ven-
tured to tell the people that it will procure them cheaper
bread. Have not all the attempts of the Noble Duke,
lately at the head of the Government, to reduce the bur-
dens of the State—attempts which, in some instances, 1
have been induced to think were carried too far—have not
all these attempts been directed to the welfare of the
people and the good of the Government? After all these
attempts made to gather gleanings from a field that has
been so well reaped, who is there that will say (be the
assembly as democratical as it may) that it can reduce the
present amount of the public taxes? Some there are, per-
haps, who may be bold enough to say so, but if they do
say so, I ask how can that end be obtained ? It cannot
be obtained but at the sacrifice of the faith, honour,
credit, and character of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
War is another point en which the supporters of this
measure have addressed their assertions to the people.
In the time of the democratical a,sembly it is said
there will be no wars. Can Hon. Gentlemen and
Noble Lords who make such assertions have looked into
their books, or do they remember what they have read ?
No wars indeed—where was the Democratic Republic that
was not the most warlike of all the States around it ?
Why will there not be wars ? Because, it is said, the
Parliament have hitherto entered into wars against the
inclination of the country. Is that true ? Look at the
I wars of King William. Perhaps that is one of the cases
of the most doubtful kind ; and I ask whether a Reformed
Parliament, like that which we are now to have, would
have supported William against James ? From what we
know of these times, I think it more than doubtful
whether a Reformed Parliament would have supported
such a war so much against the inclination of the mass of
the people ; but surely that the then Parliament did sup-
port that war well will not be made a ground of accusa-
tion against the Parliament by those who call themselves
the friends of the liberty of the country.—(Cheers.)
Again, Ist us look at the war of I'7ll. That war was
actually forced upon the Government by the people. I am
not certain as to the conduct of the Parliament exactly at
the beginning of that war, but I know that the was
highly popular.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the war with
America. No man can doubt that at the commencement
of that war, and for a considerable period after it had been
carried on, it was a war of the country. It grew un-
popular at last, because it was unsuccessful—(Hear, hear)
—and I do not deny that that war was then carried on
after it had ceased to be popular, in consequence
of the excessive degree of influence possessed by the
Crown in the House of Commons.—(Cheers from the
Ministerial Benches.) But bow did matters stand at
that time with reference to the influence of t,h0e....C.nr00tn29
Its influence was then as great as in the time of Sir
:0
Robert Walpole. There were then I believe, 200 men in
the House of Commons, all under the direct influence
of the Crown. Now there are not more (A Noe.E Loan
near the Earl of Harrowby whispered 109); i
—nothing like the number, unless you count as such those
Members of that House who happen to bold commissions
in the army or navy. Notwithstanding all the advantages
which I state, I believe the present Constitution of the
House of Commons secures—it is, I admit, one of the
parts of the Constitution, the advantages of which are
not so easily perceived try minds unaccustomed to political
speculations, and unable to observe matters which are not
palpable to the meanest comprehension.—(Hear.) I there-
fore f el much tike the Noble Earl who has just sat down,
that at this period, when attacks of so serious a kind are
made upon the Constitution, and appear to produce such a
deep impression upon the country, I ought, though not
satisfied that the present system is perfect, to hesitate before
I consented to changes, which, made at such a moment,
may he made too hastily and too extensively. While I say
this, I am ready to declare that I am so far a Reformer
that I should be glad to see part of our system improved,
and the probability of corruption and bribery diminished, by
diminishing the number of places that have exposed them-
selves to the imputation of those offences.—(Hear.) There
is another part of the speech of the Noble Eal to which I
now wish to allude. It is that in which he mentions the want
of representatives for the great towns that have lately risen
into importance. On that part of the subject I agree with
him. I ant no new convert to the doctrine; for never has an
occasion arisen—and there have been a few in my time of
proposals for a transfer from a convicted borough to a
large town in which I have not given my support
to the proposal, and I have not confined my sup-
port to votes in this House, hut have strongly and fre-
quently pressed the necessity of the measure elsewhere.--
(Hear, hear.) For a considerable time, even when the
snhject of Reform was much in agitation, it did not ap-
pear that on the part of them towns there was any great
impression that their interest would be much advanced by
having representatives. That feeling appears to me now
to lie in an entirely different direction ; but I doubt much
whether their interests would be better attended to by
having representatives of their own, than now when they
are represented by means of those mercantile men who
have seats in the • other House for different boroughs
with which they are connected. But if you do admit a prin-
ciple, you should not be inconsistent with respect to it. I
see, therefore, no objection, but the objection to change it-
self; yet I should support that change, notwithstanding I
agree with the Noble Duke, that no system likely to be
established is likely to work at first so well as that which
has hitherto existed. I should support the change, there-
fore, because I think that it is not enough for a country
to be well governed, unless the majority of that part of
the population in any degree capable of judging think
that it is well governed.—(Cheers from both sides.) Do not
misunderstand me. I think that much of the power of a
Government exerywhere exists on the confidence which the
people have in it—(Cheers)—and if that confidence does
not exist, be the Government in reality good or bad, it is
the interest and duty of the GovernMent to take such rea-
sonable measures as suggest themselves to recover that
confidence and assure its continuance.—(Loud and con-
tinued cheering.) That, however, is not to be always
done by making changes that may endanger the tranquil-
lity of the country. If such changes should be proposed,

it would he the duty of the Legislative Body to resist them.
—(Hear, hear.) Such a change was now proposed, and
he should resist it, in the hope that the quiet good sense
of the people of England would recover from its present
delusion ; and, however indignant the people might at first
be with those who dare to oppose the wild suggestions of
their phrenzy, I am sure they would soon return to the old
feelings of love and attachment towards those who had so
properly performed their date in arresting the wildness of
the popular career.--(Cheers.) I think the details of this
13111 are bad, but that they are capable of correction in the
Committee. But is that a ground to go into Committee
upon it? I think not, if I am satisfied that the prin-
ciple of the measure is bad.—(Hear, hear.) I think
that the principle is bad, because I believe that that
on which the whole of this Bill is founded is such
that no amendments made in the Committee can after
the objections to it so as to mike it our duty to pass
the Bill.—(Elear, hear, hear.) I confess that when I
first heard of the proposed changes, I flattered myself that
some amendments could be proposed which would render
this Bill, if not a desirable acquisition for the coun ry, at
least a measure of less dangerous import than I now con-
sider it. I set to work—l made the attempt—l put my
band to it, hut I found it impossible to do what I wished.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) I was met at every step by the
principle which I considered so objectionable. The prin-
ciple is, that population, t then by itself, is the basis of the
representation. It is said how can it be so, when the
Bill requires that in each borough there should be at least
300 voters composed of a class of persons renting 101.
houses? That provision is certainly contained in the
Bill ; bat still I say, that population is the basis of repre-
sentation. That is seen in the fact, that a population of
2,000 alone secures one Member ; a population of 4,000
enjoys two Memlera ; and to make up this number of
4,000, you are to go, in many instances, into the ne.gli-
bouring part of the country, and having obtained that
amount of population within the given limits, you secure
the Members, whether they are paupers or not. When I
show these circumstances, I ask whether I have not made
out my proposition, that population is to be the basis of
the future representation ? I will not go into the argu-
ment, whether that is or is not the Lest basis of represen-
tation, for I believe that in no country but the United
States has the experiment ever been tried. Even in the
wildest times of the French Republic, population, as a
basis for representation, was to be checked by taxation ;
and both taken in combination were considered as
the essential qualities of the system of represents-
t;on. But if population alone is to he taken, and
you set out on that principle, and hope to find a resting-
place from attempts at future changes; you will he mis-
taken. However, if you do adopt that principle, you
ought to follow it out consistently. Has that been done
here ? You will indeed find great difficulty in fixing the
line, and that is a reason why you should not adopt the
principle at all. What reason can be given to the bo-
roughs, some of which, for want of the requisite number
of people, are to have hut one representative, while in
some others the elective franchise is altogether to cease?
What is the reason that can be given in support of the
system, which, under the appearance of an equality of
voting, gives the right in some places to but few person,
while in others it is so extended as to amount almost to
universal suffrage? What reason can he given to satisfy
those large towns, which, with a population of 100,000
souls, are yet to have only the same number of Members
as a small town that, with the addition of a rural district,
just possesses a population of 4,000 ? This surely is an
anomaly in this Bill. We have them now, and they are
complained of; but this Bill will not remove them. But
in order to have anomalies, you must first have a principle.
It is our pride that in the formation of our Constitution,
no principle was consulted.—(Hear, from both sides.) It
was the result of the wisdom of successive generations act-
ing upon no system, but governing themselves by the dif-
ferent circumstances in which at various times they were
placed. They made such changes as the circumstances
of society required, but in making them they did not
adopt any regular system.—(Hear, from the Ministerial
Benches.) I understand those cheers, but 1 repeat my
former statements.—( Hear.) I say, therefore, that my
o' jection is to the principle of this Bill. There is no
ground whatever for supposing that the towns which you
have selected are more fit to send Members to Parliament
than any others. That is my first objection, and you
may hope in vain to give satisfaction by thus estabishing
injustice by an Act of Parliament. Another objection is
to he found in the extraordinary addition made by this
Bill to the influence of the manufacturing interests. It is
certainly right that they should have their peculiar repre-
sentatives, though you must permit me to observe, that
without attempting to establish a- balance of these inte-
rests, a representation has existed for them in the present
frame-work of the House of Commons. Let me add, that
if you establish the representation solely on the basis of
population, 1 do not know what you will be able to say to
the claims of Ireland. We who oppose that principle
should have answers enough—we could say that they did
not pay a sufficient amount of taxation. That was the
principle adopted by Mr. Pitt, who left only a repre-
sentation to those boroughs in Ireland in which the greatest
amount of population and of taxation were found to be
united. I wish any Noble Lord who supports the Bill to
tell me what answer he could give. I know that no an-
swer can be given to the agitators there, for nothing will
satisfy them; but I think that no answer can be given by
the supporters of the Bill to those who fairly wish to see the
representation of the two countries placed upon the
same footing. I have another objection to the Bill. I
think, that though the Noble Earl was able to state rea-
sons why representatives should he given to the large ins-
nufacturing- towns, and why some should be added to the
extensive counties, he is unable to state reasons why be
pursues the line he has adopted with respect to the bo-
roughs in schedule B, against which no complaints of
corruption have been proved. We know what they will
produce--what sort of representatives they have sent to
Parliament—and yet there is no one place, with the ex-
ception of the two Universities, in which a single right
of election has been left unchanged. Although Ido not
assert that the sort of property which exists in boroughs
is to be considered property in the strictest sense of the
word, yet I think that every right of that sort ought to
be most lightly touched, and nit touched at all without
some strong reason, and without a fair prospect of afford-
ing to the man whom you compel to part with it the ad-
vantage of improved Government, and all the compensation
which that advantage can secure. Now, with respect to
all these boroughs, without saying a word of corporations,
of freeholds, of burgsee tenures, of potwallopers, of scot
and lot payers, and all the infinite variety of voters, which
I believe sincerely, in the working of the Constitution,
have produced the best consequences to the State, I find
that they are all to be swept away at once, and swept
away without, as I see, securing the advantages of per-
manent good Government. There is another objection I
have to the Bill, and that is the enormous number of per.
sons it will introduce to the enjoyment of the elective fran-
chise. I ask whether that is a trifle ? where is the example
for it ?•—where is the country that has the same number
even as we have now? Look to France, which has
been just regenerated—France, which bas been regene-
rated upon a democratic principle—had not, I believe,
more than 80,000 voters; and now I fancy I am not in-
correct in stating that the democratic faction have been
satisfied with an increase which makes the total number
of voters abont 200,000.—(Hear, hear) But France,
my Lords, contains, if I am not mistaken, thirty-two
millions of inhabitants, yet there her democrats thought
that a constituency of 200,000 made the country suffi-
ciently democratic. Here we have only twelve millions of
inhabitants, and yet we had, I cannot exactly state the
number, but something between four and five hundred
thousand voters; in addition to which, it is now proposed
by this Bill to create half a million.—(Hear, bear.)
Thus, my Lords, are we, with the twelve millions of in-
habitants, to have one million of voters ; while democratic
France, with her thirty-two millions of inhabitants, is con-
tent with about 200,000 electors.--(Cheers.) My Lords,
I think that with respect to the inconvenience which must
arise from this enormous increase in the constituent body,
no man can venture to express a doubt; and whether
there may be provisions he, eafter to obviate this inconve•
nience
it I know not; but of this I am certain, that so
great is
i the Influx—so great the access of new voters—
that s impossible it should not be attended with confu-
sion and disorder.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, the ano-
malies of the Constitution have been much insisted on,
and the evils under which the country is stated to
labour have been forcibly pourtrayed ; hut where has
the Noble Earl found out the panacea for all evils—
this univesrs tl medicine—to be substituted for the whole-
some diet by which England has bsen so long nou-
rished, by which she has grown, and by which she has
flourished? You found it in the intelligence and
sh
concurred,
inde-
pendence of one class of voters.—(Hear, hear.) In one
class alone—governing in all places and in all parts of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Formerly, my Lords, we were
in the habit of considering that a variety of electors was
good, because thereby an opportunity was afforded for men
of different pursuits, and occupations, and situations in
life, to find their way into time House of Commons. The
tEhlea,rylvitevwillopferghiavping perhaps remember a pamphlet which was
written
Noble
a person high in his confidence, and written
e
some advice to the Cortes of
Spain.
my Lords, with many of the ob-er-
rations which I found in that pamphlet; and I particularly
agreed with the recommendation not to create a uniform

mode of electron, or a uniform right of vAling thrsiighout
the country.—(Hear, hear.) They, too, my Lords, who
think an equality in the suffrage desirable (I confess, my
Lords, I am not of that numoer). might, with great justice,
ehject to this measure, the eff-ct of which it must have in
different places—in some creating in fact universal suf-
frage, and in others (I wish they were more numerous)
leaving but a few qualified to elect the representatives.—
(Hear, hear.) My Lords, there are some omissions in
the speech of the Noble Earl which I regret, and of
which I think this House and the country have some
reason to complain.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl has
entirely left out of consideration what 1, in my igno-
rance, thought the real, the great problem for a States-
man to consider, when about to construct a Legislative
Assembly.—(('heers.) The first question I shall ask the
Noble Earl, is in what manner does he propose to arrange the
elections, so that he may be likely to produce an assembly
fit to govern this country.—(Cheers.) For my part, I
should have thought that looking to history and experience
would have been the best way to qualify men to become
judges of what was in truth the best constitution. But
history and experience have been thrown aside.—(Cheers.)
To an individual like me, I allow it might be rema,ked,
you do not seek for the best Constitution for the country,
because you say this which you now enjoy is decidedly the
best. But still there is a question which one might aek,
and it is, when the clauses of your Bill come into operation,
what will be the sort of persons elected by the populous
places in which there is a constituency of nine or ten thou-
sand—a constituency not merely paying 101. p‘r annum,
but 3s. 10,1. a week.—(Cheers.) What probihility is
there, my Lords, that these people would be guided in
their choice by that sound judgment which, upon such m
occasion, ought to preeaii.—(Cheers.) I ask, too, my
Lords, if, as has been sometimes stated, a very nume-
rous cons•iturney will really be a cure for bribery? I
ask you, my Lords, to look to Dublin and to Liver-
pool.—(Loud cheers.) I ask you, my Lord•, to re-
member Westinin-ter, when Westminster was contested.
—(Great cheering)—and I ask you if it did not, on both
sides, present a scene of the grossest bribery.--(Conti-
nued cheering.) Ought not then the Noble Earl, be-
fore he decided on an increase to the exiting nunaheis
of electors, to have paused, and considered, and asked
his own conscience, whether if his desire were to pro-
cure good Members of Parliament, he was likely to
produce such a result by the adoption of such means.
--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Should he not have
asked his conscience whether it was probable such a con•
stituency would be directed by motives which would lead
them to select god persons in their choice of a represen-
taeive.—(Cheers.) My Lords, it has be'tn said that such
persons are bad judges of measures, hut that they are good
judges rf men. This, my Lords, I believe to be a fallacy ;
although I have more than once heard it brought forward
by good authorities. When you say these people are good
judges of men, it is meant they are good judges of the
conduct of men. What is the conduct of a public man ?
How is it to be estimated ? Simply by his votes upon
certain great measures. If these be in accordance with
his pledges and professions, he is open to no reproach from
these judges. But in order to judge rightly, they should
be capable of judging of the measures.—(Hear, beer.)
As it is, if he vote right or wrong on all great measures,
according to his pledges at the hustings, his public conduct
is irreproachable, so fir as they are concerned, however in-
jurious to the interests of the countiy, and however wild
and irrational may be these measures he has supported.—
(Hear.) But now, my Lords, when I declare that popu
ler representation is not the le•st mode of securing good
Members of Pali tment, do I wish it to be excluded on
this account ? No ; I rejoice that popular franchise has
formed a great part of the constituency of this
country. I rejoice in it, because it has tended to give
the people that exalted idea of their own freedom
which distinguishes them from the nations of other
countries—(Hear, hear)—because it has given them an
interest in the affairs of the State, and fostered in all
classes, even the most humble, a spirit of pure patriotism.
—(Cheers ) There is not, therefore, one place in which
popular representation prevails from which I would take
the franchise.—(Cheers.) If the Bid were to leave all
the boroughs exactly in the state it found them, it would
be something in its favour. But for many reasons I op-
pose it; and among them, especially for this—that I
would not alter anything of the ancient franchise.—(Hear,
hear ) While I confess that there are certain portions of
the existing system which are liable to condemnation, I
do so most reluctantly. And I consider that the Noble
Lord should have dour so most reluctantly, fearing lest
his sweeping condemnation of certain parts would lead the
people to the belief that there wae not one part of the Con-
stitution which should be unchanged.—(Cheers.) The
dreadful effect to be apprehended from this proposal of
change is, that it may unsettle the minds of men as re-
gards the whole system.—(Cheers.) If we may say to
the people, all the rights of such and such classes of
persons, heretofore voters, are to be sacrificed, and this
without their judges deigning to assign any reason, what
must be their feelings? Will they not say, the Govern-
ment which sacrifices the rights of its subjects is not that
under which we wish to live.—(Great cheering.) Being,
as I am, so deeply interested upon this question, deprives
me of the power of expressing myself with that facility
I could desire. But let the Noble Lords opposite tell toe
what hardships arise from the anomalies in the Constitu-
tion ? cr what rational hope can they entertain of reme-
dying them by the course they would pursue? Do they
i magine that they will he able to procure proper re-
presentatives from that large set of boroughs for which
they have appointed 300 voters? My Lords, I always under-
stood, that boroughs with 300 electors were precisely those
in which there was the most direct and grossest bribery—
(Hear, hear,)—becato.e men could, by a small sum of
money, secure a majority, and thus always sought those
places as affording the cheapest way by which they could
get into Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if this be the
case, do you expect to attain the end you propose to your-
selves by increasing the number of poor electors in those
places?—(Hear, hear.) Again, too, I would ash the Noble
Earl what sort of Parliament can they hope to have under
the operation of their Reform Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) We
have heard my Lords, of a Parliament which acquired the
title of Parliament rim indoctum.—(Cheers.) I fear that
under the cit cumstances to which I have alluded, a good
claim to this enviable designation might be once more set
forth.—(Hear, hear.) Under the operation of this Bill,
that must useful class of Members who have been brought
up io the public service, and have thus aquired that
knowledge of public business which no man can acquire
except by serving his country in an official station, and
which is most essential to the House of Commons, would
be excluded. For how were they, except by bribery, to
obtain admission to the House of Commons?—(Cheers.)
How too, I ask, is the West India interest to be represented
in the other House ?—(Hear, hear.) Some of our great
manufacturers, it is true, may find entrance to the Com-
mons ; that is to say, if he be not supplanted by some noisy
demagogue, whom he is deterred from opposing by the
salutary fear of having his house burned down by the mob.
(Cheere. ) Such a man, I say, may find entrance into the other
House, for some place which has been elevated to import-
ance by manufactures. In some of the ports, too, mer-
chants may be returned to Parliament. But is this a
House to represent all the great interests of the country—
all the great interests of the empire?—(Cheers.) Will
the House of Commons possess all the information neces-
sary to manage all the complicated affairs which frequently
come before them, without the aid of professional men—
without the presence of his Majesty's Attorney and Soli-
citor-General to correct those mistakts into which a want
of legal knowledge must infallibly lead a legislative as-
sembly.—(Cheers.) But how were these persons to get
in? How could they, consistently with their attention
to a profession so laborious, devise means of entering that
House unless, as in the other case, by bribery ? Let the
Noble Lords answer me this.—(Cheers.) Not only law-
yers would be excluded from that House, but others who,
perhaps, formed its most useful Members ; but whose
wealth, whose constitution, whose habits, all forbade them
to face the expense, the trouble, and the annoyance of a
popular election.—(Cheers.) I ask the Noble Lords how
are such men to come in ? Another question, too, I
have to ask the Noble Lords, and I wok that my doing so
will not be considered as proving that we have, as the
Noble Earl asserted, a peculiar interest in this Bill—for I
declare if we have any interest in this particular it is only
in common with the nation at large. I mean the possibi-
lity of your Lordships getting your eldest sons into Par-
liament. I ask the No'de Lords, how is this, except
in a few instances, to be effected under the Reform
Bill ?—(Cheers.) And I ask, if there is to be a House
of Lords, is it not fit that it should be able to display
that knowledge which must be painfully acquired, and
that talent which is matured by the habit of exertion?
11y lnds, I have heard many celebrated Members of
your Lordships' House during the 50 years to which my
memory extends, but I caunot recollect more than ten
men who have taken a distinguished part in your Lord-
ships' debates, who had not their schooling in the House
of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) It is not that this is bene-
ficial in exercising their talent as ape keys alone, but it
gives them an opportunity of learning how to transact the
public business, and what is, perhaps, more important still
than any thing else they can there learn, they are led to
intercourse with their fellow-subjects, and with popular
bodies, by wh;ch they are taught to feel and appreciate
English
born a
loibertys--(Hear, hear)—and English independence,
they
are to hereditary homage, and in most

r
minds and less powerful in actuating their conduct thal.ll, V.
cases to hereditary wealth, might be less present to 11'0;
they never had been elsewhere—than if they bad !grebe,. 1
no other atmosphere except that of your Lordship; 11°utbis*
—(Clleers.) My Lards, Would not, hwver, Rev', , t
as a reason why your Lordships should notepass the „0, t
except that the country are equally interested with rid 4 a.
1 Lordships. My Lords; I have yet another questio!.., , th,
ask the Noble Earl : I desire to know if be does heir,' t
th it a body, constituted after the manner he pron.. : a
for his new Parliament, would assist his GoveriTeg.: it,
in carrying into of 'act their views On what are T.. 4 'II
liberal principles? No, my Lords, Ido Pogitt_j tar
declare, that if we had had a Constitution fri'7lo a,
upon a model similar to that now set forward, still vt,° or !In
the people have been labouring under a multituareao:, 'I u
those taxes which were imposed in the ignorance of f, fr '4l
times, and entangled in all those trammels of law "me- ' t
with society was formerly embarrassed ;--I ask the 14°14: ' pt
Lord, would the gnat measure of Catholic Emanele°l ' i
have been passed by a Reformed Parliatrient?--40ear.)_ ty
do not consider that it would. I offer my conjectot7 ; p
The Noble Earl has not offered his.—(Cheers.) I betii: : I.l°
therefore, that I may hear from him, or from some of 0 It ,
Nob'e Louis near him, his conjectures respecting the nap , Ithre
tars to which I have adverted.—(Hear, hear.) Are Y: le p.
Lord-hips prepared to make an entire change in the ef. ttio :
tllttt
t ei
representative system, simply upon the conjeettireS nlh.„,
Noble Earl.—(Great cheering.) No. Thisis my 0 ri, . ti 4:
tion ; I oppose all measures which propose to alter led,/ to '
if you leave uninjured all the ancient rights;siroPlY
thing.—(Caeers.) If you leave schedule B untonch.....t, I,cl,
diTicif :
ing your disfranchisement against those boroughs sc to. ,:
are incontestably nomination boroughs, would Ibe sabich tar
fled ? Would you stand blameless? No. The injorY via, ~,-,..
you have done is irremediable. Ido not speak ail? ,-,
/0.,.., he
but of proposing the measure.—(Cheers.)
ships may prevent some portion of the evils which 1541."-- f
~,g .11$°. ' '
lotherwise result, by not permitting the Bill topsaf men he
law; but, my Lords, neither you nor the might a loa all
can revoke the mischief of proposing it.--(VerYwat 41"1
cheering.) It is for this I blame the Noble Earl, thatlior of
the shadow of any reason which could a itisfy any i ought
out
able man, he has done that which no Government °7O) N 1
to do. He has proposed a measure which I lament
„,„. fri
allow it is equally dangerous to adopt and to
ofrcjecdindr 4
(Great cheering. ) The Noble Earl is a man
guished talent; I have . heard him but seldom °Ss 0,
House—but seldom is it that I have not heard biter Pi
pleasure. I should have been happy to see his abi.ii;j,4ou Id at
ployed in directing the affairs of this country--" f tube °I
have been delighted to see him guiding the
yawl ocbea; oi
State through the sea of troubles on which it wasiLn,,As 8'
but Ido really think, however great might be the ,1.0',. ti
it could have been his fortune to confer upon usr thig) I 11
position would cancel all obligations.—(Hear, hear was li
say 'his " more in borrow than in anger." I never
l. 1
in a situation to stand as a rival to the Noble faff taa t
never was hia political enemy. I wished thaticiest (
strength of the Noble Duke's Government vsas su
sigh)
to carry on the affairs of the country he should On with, '
plover. But findina this was not the case, I he4':he hes ;
pleasure that the Noble Earl had been advanced° "-t- bill' '
of the Government. I was ready if passible to stipPert the 1
I trusted net in Mr. Grey of ninety-three, butt 1 Olt l '
Lord Grey.—(Hear, bear.) I trusted in Inleclsrel !
and Ido now believe in his sincerity when her ig , '
that in proposing this most sweeping measure out FOY P
and of confiscation, he is not proposing rnore--0 bi! 4
posing any thing contrary to what he put forth 'ri, 1 it
Majesty's Speech.—(Hear, hear.) Still, my flii t
think there is nothing to justify the priuciple $ loitsr t
main portion of the Bill.—(Loud cheers.) I,llepatis°
im of the Noble Earl, when he assumed the clne owe 4
ior the Government—a situation which in a gee eteoceg ii
such as this must always be regarded with high ret;ieeto t
—was one which might well be considered a° ;3;1,10, l,
peculiar envy. He had it in his power to co°
ash Pg '
and aermaaent good upon the country.---(Cir e-t.ae 11$‘ I
stood balanced, as it were, betwei n twoararties! rm.. I
dicals and the party which objected to all B,,e'° Tight 1
party wh'ell, I think, was wrong.—(Hear.) rt;saed,sl
have introduced a measure which would have 1110 el 1
large a portion of those who can be satisfied wilt!, . 1
thing as this Bill can possibly satisfy, and he tnigwboal
reconciled to Relot in a larger proportion of those irOle
dissarisfi -d with the present Bill. He might heYetthostl
the valuable support of a large portion of those .der,4
called the conservative party, arid might haviLef jlOOl,l
them to rally round his standard.—(Cheers.) dead P-
he might have stood between the living and the , ther
in my conscience, I believe, he might have etrtior
plague.—(Laud cheers.) (Here the Noble Plot Ile
Thhaiss,bromuyghLtourisl.s,
iitsisthien smtoartr
Noble. Earl a passage fr• m a Latin author, which we (lid nthicicuillis -
eosviorsawypeo.;:tti
Noble Earl will probably remember, that o....bfitaertr,
' other
House of Parliament he was taking . utiv"-will',;l'
using language which Mr. Pitt thought tatra:hea 01,8
inoculation of the principles of those who were which" ra '
radicals, he gave him a warning—a "og
warm paean.
may recollect. He told him to beware of that .f;aora.
which theme was neither honesty, nor heart, 00t1b0r:ry
beware of it, because it was a party that was eq":„(111:a
to talent and to mind, wherever it might apagsr'glay s'oo
I think that what the Noble Earl is doing, n°""ta Waif
intention of doing, will give a degree of streng
trai, rto
radicals which he will never be able to They 109'04
authorities abg
re the leaders of that party ""tl#l,- of
support this Bill, not because we are satisfied, rot °aia
if a change to this extent he once effected, the de Ft to
work is easy.—(Cheers.) If the carriage 1$:-ets.sigts,
motion at this pace, it must, by its own 100—e0 IP; p
hurried down the precipice.—(Cheers.) If /,:eoas' 00
them, why persist in a measure that must be 11,,:? Pe, 'lie
you do not believe them, what are their groooTectdoot
doubt their intentions ? Oh, no ; that I rl'iS 0° bog
indeed a sin.—(Loud cheers.) My Lords, 14;00 "Cie
their intentions ; but I at the same time con" if, thy
that should they hereafter come into collision halos/ te la
vernment, their power will be broken in the airing all..
will ensue.—(Hear, hear.) My Lords, o I
rtiltioas aeon
sion to the details, have thus stated my obr-bat lt or
principle of the measure, and I do not think 'l4OlO
be consistent with my duty to myself, your 1"....) !ell
the country to vote for the Bill.—(Loud ebee'laliat
Noble Earl told us the Bill must pass, or, if fltloif fatr
as efficient.—( Year, hear, hear.) No 13'", ibis,. tilt
which does not carry disfranchisement as fa :bort "014
sure, can be deemed as efficient. Nothing be, is v
Bill, we are told, can succeed, What h0pe,10,0114 1,1,
of doing any good by amendments in tbe litio stil 000
(Great eaeering.) In the other House it ,tae 0; TO,
the Gov( r n 'tient that they would receive, °ledge, ft°.
amendment. But how did they redeem tha.piot sotacct/
a single amendment did they consent to, end put 'ILO;
ful trifle which in very shame they n'tl' an iiP'tf
(Cheers)—save upon the one occasion, wheat n' be
amendment was cat 6..41 against them 11:4 tit, fil
their own friends—an amendment of wa,mai-e olon';atra
Earl does not approve.—(Loud cheers.) 1";pal$010,
says the people are tar the Bill. He has i'll al the .0 tb, 1
of bribery. I now ask him, was there eve: f4l,erflas,',
of bribery any thing to the extent of the L'ao per'ao "
Bill, which he positively directs to 500,00 f p 00,0 1
(Loud cheers.) He declares a certain chaos: pot 'lit"),
be alone the electors of the kingdom; 80(11e3r,' 0114
bribe to induce them to be fur the Bill bat rs,
But even with all this, while I adinit tbill, SOISCO°IOI
general feeling that there should be a ell'llPiejouse tornsaa
no small change, in the constitution 0f tire a syn.'? ~f
coons, I must declare that I do not see ell'fayoor 0 try 1
the people being as decided as they vgre :,.) it
t, g
Bill now before your Lordships.--(elle.e„i at 51,1,;, tO if
have been presented, and I 'gig': a ore bell
treat petitioners with respect; they have c°3li tielo;i
heard and to be attended to ; but wl'e° aht,eet.it o I
us, we must consider the nature of the
of
Jo gre
6020 oi
If it should happen to be a subject It coo Perhie
difficult, anti complicated a nature, th, If and thef s"
the highest talent, the highest ilifornrat° 'the ve'' do,
knowledge—possessing, in addition To witiali loneor,
knowledge of the mind and heart of or
apply theln'd f,
make a good politician—when tbeY :oneot, a .00r.
its consideration, are involved in einhnrri...h ~..gighty !_ iii
shrink with awe from a matter of suiviety. et the; I/
and are to the last doubtful of the prorrelr the she;
sion, may we not, with all respect °" they be P,0,6(i
Cener
send us those petitions, doubt wh ,beer 6.) Vrtgo:o)
qualified to judge and to advise? c..'-'OlO those Pe
.)
titions conic, with few excevticias,
timei )01. sc'tesiaolrir
whom the bribe is given--fen„in__land, and Oaf i"
though I admit that this class in r:A:aia, are oul.
since the schoolmaster has been
to
°
the exclusive rol/
gent, and have a better claim
they are for the ts, aeo,
than in other countries; but as .
which they acquire
which
i"
employed all day in that labour_ li)'
Ited with an intuit,: I,
0,
subsistence, unless they be lais
does not reach t eoPefi
of acquit ing knowledge
which
leisure and better loofa,
orders, those who have more
capable of I' f(OT
be
slides to learn, they cannot _
.vhat
cot they
tea 7 0;.
opinion upon the Bill.—(Hear.).
gives then' vet II
I. a°.
know about the Bill, except that it
brew. , - 00 ii
A • ill give diem cheap
then they are told it on
rest cap upon s ti 01011
aimself to them with a
presents b and the other e the 1
two loaves of bread, one lag?, t
oil will hit' have
d
if you vote for such a candy., tea Y
oi.
..,,T) oly
~.o.ri
' ''' 1,01 'r ha
loaf; but if for the other candidate, y
d tbus P."; sif
small one. Thus are they delude -. 5
0, 0 pre,
a false excitement, and by the exertion I