The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-28 00:00:00

PETTY BAG OFFICE BILL.

Lorl CAMPBELL meved the third reading of this

After a few words from Lord REDESDALE, the Bill
WAS read a third time and passed.
LAHORE PRIZES.

The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH asked if the Noble
Marquis could give him any answer respecting the
jewels, &c., seiz'd at Lahore?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to
say that the Government had not as yet received such
information as would enable him to answer the question.
Instruotions had been given to give the army of the
Punjaub six months' allowance of batta; that he hoped
would be satisfactory.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGU said it was most
satisfactory, as many of the troops would receive the
batta who could not, by any possibility, have shared in
the division of the Lahore prize money.
BANKRUPTCY BILL.

Lord BROUGHAM, pursuant to notice, rose to call
the attention of their Lordships to the subject of the
Commons' amendments on the above Bill, and to state
why he thought their Lordships ought to dissent from
these amendments. When that Bill had been seat down
some five or six weeks ago to the House of Commons,
although they fully agreed in the principle of the Bill,
and had agreed to the second reading, they had referred
it, and very properly, to a Select Committee to examine
into the details. Unfortunately upon that Committee it
was not possible to expect the attendance of one of the
most eminent Chancery lawyers in the other House of
Parliament. But a very eminent lawyer, the Attorney-
General, took charge of the Bill, and acted as chairman
of the Committee. It was impossible it could have the
advantage of the consideration of a more able or learned
gentleman. There were some other Chancery barristers
on that Committee, but they had been called after he
(Lord Brougham) had removed bankruptcy business
out of the Court of Chancery. The remaining portion
of the Committee consisted of mercantile and com-
mercial gentlemen. The first course taken by the
Committee, however, was to object to the form of the Bill.
The Committee thought fit to depart from that plan,
which he had adopted in accordance with the example of
many high authorities. The Bill had consisted of about
378 articles, as he had designated them, and those had
been numbered 'with letters after the Roman fashion.
The Committee had considered that this was an innova-
tion upon the ancient practice—they had considered that
the divisions called articles ought to be termed sections,
and that instead of numerals there should be figures ;
and accordingly they cut down the Bill to 278 sections,
numbered with figures. They could not tolerate such an
innovation as that C should represent 100, or V five, or
two X's 20.—(Laughter.) They should have it some
other way. There was no end to the innovations made,
for beatles the alterations he had noticed, the Bill bad
been distributed to chapters—into 29 chapters—a thing
unheard of in the way of Commons' amendments.—(A
laugh.) lie had felt it necessary to explain to their
Lordships how their progeny had been altered by the
nursing care of the other House. From a want of suffi-
cient knowledge of the bankruptcy law and the working
of the present system, the Committee of the other place
had made several alterations greatly detrimental to the
utility of this Bill. In the first place, execution clauses
had been left out. In the second place, all the provi-
sions with respect to the secret and fraudulent transfer
of property had been struck out. He did not mean to
say that these clauses were not susceptible of improve.
ment; but, unfortunately, the Commons' Committee had
not received the assistance of the heads of the legal pro-
fession, because they were all engaged in the courts of
law, and so not knowing how to improve, the Committee
had struck out the clauses altogether.—(A. lairgh.) Sure
he was that if the heads of the profession had been exa-
mined they would not have advised the striking out of
these clauses, or if they had, they would have stated good
reasons for so advising.—(Hear.) Another alteration
was made, in giving power to receive evidence on appeal,
on the supposition that there was an intermediate court
of appeal, but which did not exist. He should not omit
to state that he had received that day resolutions, signed
by 35 of the principal merchants and manufacturers of
Manchester, expressing their dissatisfaction with the
Bill as it had came out of the Select Committee, attri-
buting to the late period of the session the imperfect
manner in which it had been elsewhere discussed, and
advising the postponement of the measure. He did
not agree with them as to the postponement. Nor did
the merchants and traders of London, who though
they lamented the alterations, and disapproved of
the changes, yet considered that the Bill would
effect considerabl3 improvements in the law, and would
only require, to make it complete, a short additional
Bill, which he pledged himself he would introduce
next session. As practical legislators, they ought to lis-
ten to the London rather than the Manchester gentle-
Mel]. At the same time he shared in the regret ex-
pressed by the Mamchester men, that the Select Com-
mittee had not called before them the men who best un•
derstood this question—he meant the Bankruptcy Com-
missioners—Mr. Holroyd, Mr. Golbourn, Mr. Fon-
blanque, and the other learned comrnisioners, most of
whom had been engaged for the last twenty years in ad-
ministering the law. It was somewhat singular, that
while the Select Committee were making these altera-
tions, another Bill had been passed, and was now on
their Lordships' table for a third reading to-night—
which restored the clauses of his—or rather of their
Lordships' Bill—with the view of their being applied to
Ireland. So that they were called upon to enact two
codes of law on the same subject and for the same people,
or they were called upon to make the Bill for Ireland
the same as the present Bill for England. In other
words they must reject the clauses which the House of
Commons had unanimously inserted in the Irish Bill,
the same House having rejected these clauses in his Bill
for England.—(Hear.) It appeared from the time given
by the other House to the discussion of his Bill, that
they had allotted just 35 seconds for each clause.— i
(Hear, hear.) He had been greatly alarmed when he
heard that the other House had placed before the
Committee a digest of the bankruptcy law, with
the view of fully discussing it, because he naturally
felt anxious for the fate of the criminal law
digest, which comprehended some 1,200 or 1,300 heads.
If the House of Commons would not do as their Lord-
ships did—place faith in the labours of their Select Com-
mittees, and in the reports of experienced men—but
would insist on discussing every one title and article—
then the sooner the Criminal Law Commission was
biought to a close the better; for no criminal law digest
could ever be carried on such terms. Among the per•
sons examined by the Select Committee was a learned
Ju'lge, who, when adted if he had formed any opinion
on the Bill before the Committee with regard to the ad-
ministration and consolidation of the law of bankruptca,
answered that it was a very large subject—that he could
not be expected to enter into a treatise on the bankruptcy
law. This witness went on to say that, not expecting to
be examined berore the Committee, he had paid little at-
tention to the BAI till it had left the House of Lords; but
that, after it had left their Lordships' House, he paid a
little more attention to it, and that he found it to be a
pamphlet of more than 100 pages. Now he (Lord
Brougham) had always had and always should have a
profound respect, not deeper than they deserved, for the

judges of the land, so long as they adorned the bench
by their great learning and practical judicial wisdom.
But in proportion as a judge—be his wisdom, learning,
and dignity ever so great—was well fitted for defensive
operations, so was he, by his station, dignity and w isdom,
wretchedly incapable of offensive operations. In pro-
portion► as he respected himself he should be cautious of
showing that he did not mistake the mjsterious for the
profound; smart, hasty decisions, for easy and ready
sagacity, and flippancy for sparkling wit.—(Hear.) So
long as such a person allowed him to respect him, so
long should he command his respect. lie had no occa-
sion to defend their Lordships, to defend himself, or the
Bill which they had passed, and which a high judicial
authority had decorously termed a pamphlet of 100 pages,
but should merely say, that there were some persons who
found it easier to gibe than to read and comprehend, and
that of these persons he should not say whether or not
the Judge in question was one. Besides the innovations
which he had noticed as having been made in the Bill,
there was one which consisted of the omission of the
word " not " in the schedule, and another relating to the
power of making regulations. By the Bill as it formerly
stood, the power of making rules and regulations was
conferred on eight commissioners, of whom the senior
commissioner was to be one. By the alteration made,
the provision with respect to the senior commissioner
was omitted. The effect would be, that as there were

twelve country and six London commi;sioners, the
country commissioners might make rules and regulations
without consulting the chief commissioner in London.
He proposed to agree to all the amendments, with the
exception of that omission, and also that of the word
"not reserving to himself the right, next session, to
introduce a new Bill on the subject.
Lord CAMPBELL said he had every reason
to believe that there was the greatest unani-
mity on the part of the Committee of the
other House to do justiceee tc! this Bill. He
had no objection to thesee which the Noble and
Learned Lord proposed to utak
After a few remacks from Lord WRARNCLIFFE,
petition from a
Lord REDESDALE presented
Mr. Church, clerk of enrolments ain tie
Bankruptcy, praying that if the office were abZurt oi‘f
claim for compensation might not be overlooked.
shed
Lord BROUGHAM said the case was one in which
?heir Lordships could not apply a remedy.
The amendments were then agreed to.
BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM then moved the third reading of
the Bankruptcy (Inland) Bill, observing that he had en-
deavoured to make certain amendments, in order, if pos-
sible, to accommodate the two Bills.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
DEFECTS IN LEASES SUSPENSION BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM moved the second reading of the
Defects in Leases Suspension Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL said the object of this Bill was to
suspend till the next session the operation of one of the
most useful measures which had ever passed. That Bill,
Whl'h wcr Prqeoted by Sir John Romilly and completod

by Mr. Coulson, was intended to remove a great scandal
from the law, and to take away the prejudice which was
so unjustly entertained against entails and family settle-
ments. It was calculated to give great security to pro-
perly, without inflicting the slightest hardship on any
individual. The present measure was intended to sus-
pend the operation of that Bill, and he should therefore
move that it be read a second time on Thursday next.
After some observations from Lord BROUGHAM,
who proposed to amend the Bill in Committee, it was
read a second time.
ACCOMMODATION FOR THE PRESS.

Lord BEAUMONT brought up a report from the Ac-
commodation Committee, stating that several gentlemen
connected with the public press had been examined, and
that their evidence was to the effect, that the experiment
which had been tried with respect to the new gallery had
been successful. The Committee, therefore, recommended
the erection of a permanent gallery, on the plan sub-
mitted by Mr. Barry.
RAILWAYS ABANDONMENT BILL.

The adjourned debate on the second reading of this
Bill was resumed by Earl GRANVILLE, who stated
that he had hoped to be able to introduce such amend-
ments, or to give such information to their Lordships as
would have induced them to sanction the measure. He
regretted, however, that be had no additional informa-
tion to offer. He was quite convinced that the Bill, if
passed, would operate beneficially with respect to the in-
terests of all parties concerned.
The Earl of EGLINTON repeated the objections
which he had previously urged against the Bill, and ob-
jected to its further progress at the present period of the
session. One of the arguments urged in favour of the
Bill was that it would enable the companies to avoid the
great expanses entailed upon them by an application to
Parliament. Now, how was that expense to be avoided?
If the Commissioners were to examine witnesses and
hear the speeches of counsel, he did not see in what
manner the expense could be avoided. If they allowed
companies to be dissolved on the mere statement of par-
ties, no great expense might be incurred, but he doubted
how justice would be done. He certainly should object
to the further progress of the Bill.
Lord REDESDALE opposed the Bill.
Lord MONTEAGLE approved of the principle of the
Bill, but thought their Lordships would not be able fully
to consider it during the present session.
Earl GRANVILLE intimated that he would not
press the measure further, and it was then withdrawn.
On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, the Turnpike
Trusts Continuance Bill, and the Stamps, &c., Allow-
ances Bill were read a second time.
PILOTAGE BILL.

On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, the House
went into Committee on the Pilotage Bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH•ohje.oted to the Bill.l
on the ground that by the Bill the Trli.nctetyceßoatord
act
tuads
have power to give any
mrt a 6
4.0'1. IV. imposed
pilot to any port. Now. the c
Govern-
mentthesetsopekcntowto7hegtievring
certain r
he set rwi ci ts ihoends,
licences h ; _
ad been in communication with the Trinity
therefore, ith
re
Board, with the view of continuing these restrictions, so
as to ensure due efficiency on the part of those who i
received licences to act as pilots. There were several
• other points of importance which might have been pro-
perly considered in Committee, had the Bill been brought
before their Lordships in proper time. The object of
the Bill was to substitute for a qualified pilot a pilot of
limited knowledge. A letter had been written to the
Cork Port Commissioners by Captain Beechey, requir-
ing that ten experienced pilots should be sent here for
the purpose of piloting the Royal squadron. The post-
script was to the effect that an experienced pilot should
be sent to Cowes to be received on board the Victoria
and Albert steam-vessel in case the night should be
dark. He referred to this letter to show that if the
present Bill was in operation it would be impossible to
find experienced pilots for any purpose. The long
voyage master of vessels would of necessity be incom-
petent to pilot a vessel into a particular port. He could
not trust to his eye, or have an accurate knowledge of
the different buoys like a qualified pilot, who was ac-
customed to the coast; hence the danger of the Bill, and
hence the danger that would arise from the appointment
of the class of persons as pilots which the Bill appeared
to contemplate.
Lord BYRON said a few words which were not heard
in the gallery.
Earl TALBOT said any person bringing a ship home
in heavy weather would know the comfort of baying a
pilot on board will acquainted with the shore. He
hoped, therefore. the Government would consent to con
fine the Bill to steam-vessels.

Earl GRANVILLE denied there would be any dan-
ger in the Trinity Beard giving certificates to any one
presenting himself. He was afraid the case would be
quite the other way, and that so much care would be
taken as to limit the number of certificates very consider-
ably. With reference to the number of Cork pilots ap-
plied for, he considered that the care and caution that
would be naturally exercised in the event of a Royal visit
ought not to be considered as having any bearing on the
commercial question.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH only wished to have
it settled that certificates should be given to qualified
persons and with due prudence.
The Bill then went through Committee.
NUISANCES REMOVAL.
The Nuisances Removal and Diseases Prevention Bill
was read a second time.
NEW FOREST AND WALTHAM FOREST.

The New Forest and Waltham Forest Bill weal
through Committee.
TITLES OF CATHOLIC PRELATES.

Lord REDEiDALE, on referring to a circular sent
to the Governors of colonies respecting the rank of pre-
cedence of Roman Catholic prelates, said, as the Roman
Catholic prelates of Ireland had been recognised by the
Lord-Lieutenant of that country, it was desirable, in the
event of her Majesty's visit, to know exactly how the
question stood, and what was the right they enjoyed to
title and precedence. The Noble Lord moved for copies
of the correspondence that had taken place on the
subject.

Earl GREY believed that the Bishops had no right to
precedence, except as Lords of Parliament. The Irish
Bishops had rank and precedence by virtue of a statute.
It was an error to give bishops in the colonies, there
fore, the style and title of bishops in England. It was
felt in those colonies where Roman Catholics formed the
bulk of the population that their prelates were equal to
those of the Established Church; and as the bishops of
both religions were paid alike by the Government, he
(Earl Grey) had instructed the governors of colonies to
admit that equality. He had, however, instructed the
Governor of New South Wales not to permit precedence
to the Catholic prelates over the Protestant bishops.
After a few words from Lord REDESDALE, in which
he expressed it as his opinion that the Archbishop of
Sydney should not be styled " his grace,"
The motion was agreed to.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
The Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill went
through Committee.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION).
The Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill was read
a second time, and ordered to be committed.
Their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock.