The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-26 00:00:00

HO USE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 25.

The gallery was not opened this evening until Five
o'clock, on a,count of there being a ballot for three Elec-
tion Committees, viz. those of Clare, Galway, and Dum-
barton. The House was very full of Members.
Several private Bills were forwarded a stage, and a
number of petitions on various subjects presented.

Sir J. GRAHAM then rose to move the vote for the
Navy Estimates, and after baying cloned the indulgence
of the House on account of his inexperience in bringing for-
ward such details, as it would be his duty on the present
occasion to submit, and having stated, that although his
lion. Friend, the Member for Middlesex, had recovvred
his voice, he regretti d that he (Sir James Graham) had
lost his; he went on to say, that it would not be neces-
sary for him to trouble the House at any great length, as
he would at once proceed to the subjects to which it would
be his duty and his desire to call the attention of the
House. He had been induced to make some changes
which he feared might not meet the satisfaction of some
Hon. Members opposite, but he could assure them that
he had not willingly introduced any changes; and that
such as he bad, were made after the best review he could
take of the subject. Last session the Treasurer of the
Navy introduced a Bill, which afterwards passed into an
Act, foe regulating the payments in his office; and it pro-
vided that the payments on account of the Victu Ming
Board should he distinct from those on account of the
Navy Board, and thus it became necessary that there
should be separate charges in the estimates. At first this
appeared to him (Sir J. Graham) a matter of minor im-
portance; but when he came to investigate the accounts
and paper• submitted to him in his own office, be was led
to believe that it was a wise and salutary measure, as it
prevent,d much inconvenience from the intermingling of
accounts, i:nil militated against the practice of throwing
in the surplus of one department into the deficiency
of another. He disapproved most highly of this prac-
iunf itt,litietriwnags nottonescotm'sseary"r; heley
in-
culpate his predecessors ; for he did not say that the
practice of which he complained bad not formerly pre-
o,oud
reprehen-
siblet c
details b
veiled. But although it was sanctioned by long usage, he

•
'considered, that inasmuch as it was at "'pee inconvenient,
inexpedient, and unconstitutional, they should not hesitate
to apply a remedy. To explain the nature and origin of
this practice, he was compelled to go back to a period
comparatively remote; one of the first acts that succeeded
the revolution by which our rights and liberties were so
happily secured was, the Appropriation Act, which was
introduced by no less a person than Lord Settlers. By
this Act the Commons positively obtained for themselves,
not alone the right of fixing the quantum of supply for the
public service, but likewise, a recognition of their right
to distribute it under various heads of tie service. But
Hated! says, the navy was an exception to the general rule ;
and it appeared, that from 1795, the Naval Estimates dif.
fered from the other supplies. Hatsell farther observes,
that there is always great difficulty in forming the Naval
Estimates, from the very nature of the service, which was
exposed to more casualties than any other. There was'
the difficulty in obtaining information respecting ships on
foreign stations ; the quantum of repair needed by such
ress •la, and the many unforeseen circumstances against
which there could be no provision, which were continually
liable to arise, and thus create an expence that had not
been anticipated. The sum for the service of the navy had
been voted under three heads; but the gross sum was al-
ways applied to the service generally. Within a few years
afterwards, however (he believed in 1798), when Lord
Spencer was First Lord of the Admiralty, Parlia-
ment extended the general principle of the Appropria-
tion Act to the naval service; and since then, the Ap-
propriation Act had regularly distributed the gross sum
under the several beads, according to the votes of the
House ; and thus was there no longer any difference be-
tween the supply for the Navy anti that for the other
branches of the public service. But although Parliament
had declared, legislatively, that there should be no diffe-
rence, yet practically this had been disregarded, and the
gross sum was, as before, applied to the service generally.
But he, after carefully viewing the subject, considered that
the time was arrived to give full effect to the change
tehich took place in 1798: and that the authority of Par-
liament should be enforced, in the regulation of the Sup-
plies for the Naval Service, in the same manner as it was
in the other services. Holding strongly this opinion, it
was his duty to bring under the attention of that House a
few facts, to show the great and growing departure from
the rule laid down in 1798, which now prevailed. He had
no great abuse to lay before them, nor any thing to state
which might be, perhaps, properly thrown forth as an in-
culpation of his immedloe predecessors; yet the matter
was well worthy the attention of the House; and though it
might not be necessary to cast a retrospective glance, of a
nature very strict and searching, upon this matter, yet he
had no doubt it would be deemed advisab!e to turn upon
it a retrospective glance of the strictest scrutiny. He.
had to inform the House that works of great extent in
the department of the naval service had been began,
completed, and paid for, without the knowledge or sanc-
tion of Parliament, or without the subject once being
brought under the notice of the House of Commons. These
works were paid far out of the surplus upon other votes,
which were greater than was needed for the purposes to
which it was intended they should be applied. There was
a work at Weevel, near Portsmouth, commenced and com-
pleted, and paid for by the Victualling Board, without
any vote front Parliament. Indeed the subject was never
mentioned in the House but once, and that incidentally,
when last year or the year before his Learned Friend, the
Member for Portsmouth, seeing great works going on
in his neighbourhood, asked a question respecting
them, in his place, and he was informed, in reply,
that the proceeds arising from the sale of some public
buildings in Portsmouth would defray the expence.
The House would fe•l surprised when he told
them that expense, and when they remembered
that it was sanctioned by no vote of theirs :
The expellee was 155,5341. There was another
work of the Victualling Board that was of greater
extent and more expensive. He alluded to the works
at Carnal (we believe). This case differed from the
others, because it was brought under the estimates of
1826. But the vote then for the works was only 4,0001.,
while, since 1825, 229,4411. had been expended.—
(Hear.) This he considered as excessive, the works hav-
ing been originally contemplated when we were at war,
and had one hundred sail of the line at sea. Another
work, begun, carried on, and finished, without the sanc-
tion or knowledge of the House of Commons, was one in
the Isle of Ascension—in a foreign colony—and although
it was of no great amount, yet, as involving the same vi-
cious principle, he considered it worthy of attention. The
expence was under 10,000/., and it was, as in other cases,
provided for by balances unaccounted for in Parliament.
Hitherto he had spoken only of the Victualling Board,
but the practice was not peculiar to this Board. It ex-
tended to the Navy Board. For the works going on up to
that year there had been voted 148,465/. Now the
House would hardly be prepared to hear, that for
these works there was paid 325,9081. The works of
which he spoke were the Basin and Wall at Woolwich.—
Neither was it peculiar to the Victualling Board to com-
mence, complete, and pay for works without the consent
and knowledge of Parliament. Since the year 1829,
7,9081. had been expended at Leith, not one shilling of
which was voted by Parliament. The bargain was made
with the Corporation of Leith by Act of Parliament. It

was an improvident bargain on the part of the Corpora.
tion of Leith, but still he had felt it hi, duty en behalf of
the inhabitants to press for its completion. He was not
prepared, however, to agree to the propriety of money
being spent without the consent and vote of Parliament.
Another fact which he had to lay before the House was

that money hail been expended fix ship-building at
Bombay, although no sum bad been charged in the Esti-
mates under this head by the late Governments A mum
of upwards of 50,0001. was required for a seventy-four,
which was lately built at Bombay, of which 26,2401. had
been paid by th, late Government, and yet no credit was
taken for it in the accounts of last year. Another fact of
yet greater importance was, that since 1820, there never
has been less than 1,500 men (and in one year there
were 3,000) annually paid for more than Parliament
had asked. Since the year 1830, the sum actually
p tid for wages exceeded the sum voted by 1,241,000/.
From what had the deficiency in the payment of
wages been made good ? This question opened the view
he took of the subject, and which constituted its real
danger. To pay this increased number of men, a charge
was made under the head of timber and materials for the
supply of our arsenals. The sum voted during the last four
years for this-supply was 3,705,0001. The sum actually ex-
pended was 2,675,0001., leaving in four years a balance,
applicable and applied to other purposes, of 1,030,0001. In
like manner under the head of Army Provisions for the last

four years, 2,700,0001. had been voted, while only
1,895,0001, was expended, leaving on the whole
a balance of 805,0001. ; and leaving a constant an-
nual surplus of 80,000/. Here he would take the op-
portunity of showing, from a report addressed to the
Lords of the Admiralty Board, opinions entertained

by that body respecting the appropriation of the
Parliamentary vote. This is the form in which they
lay down the principle on which the money should
be distributed, said the Hon. Member, and then proceeded
to read an extract from the Report of the Commissioners of
the Victualling Board, which declared that the way in
which they considered the money should be applied was
not simply as it had been granted, but that the defic'ency
incurred under one head should be made good by the sur-
plus which had accrued under another, and that the gross
sum voted should he applied to the service of the Navy ;
the whole expenditure being defrayed out of the whole vote
and not under different heads, but blended together and
with all the money for the service. TAFonie the views
held by these Commissioners ; and a1t4%.611 the practices
into which they had led were not corrupt, yet there was
no reason why they might not become so—the salaries of

the public officers being part of the votes of the year, and
a possibility existing of making a saving on one side ac-
count for a deficiency on the other. Thus, from what he
on imthso uht dt
the en
pheanildset,a, itwaepepveilareadndthactralmaregne swu
know-
ledge and sanction of Parliament, and that these ex-
pences were provided for by the surplus, arising on
votes, which greatly exceeded the necessity under which
it was presumed they were asked. He was now about
to state something, in which, no doubt, his Honourable
Friend the Member for Middlesex " would fully agree
with him. They had often together fought the estimates
when announced for the current year, but they bad
omitted one thing, of the necessity of which their long
sitting in Opposition ought to have convinced them they
had omitted--to insist on the means of knowing what was
the expenditure. He knew no mode of carrying such an
object into effcct except that of getting a balance sheet
(Hear, hear.) He had titnight it not inconsistent with
his duty—on the contrary, it seemed to him a part of the
proper performance of his duty—to prepare the means by
which the House might al rive at the knowledge of the ex-
penditure. He hail, therefore, prepared a balance-sheet
which lie should now lay before the House with respect to
both the heads of the Navy Board. He had separated en-
tirely the Victualling from the Navy Branch, and his Right
Hon. Friend had appointed a separate cashier for the
victualling expenditure. The charges of the two branches
had been most carefully separated, in order that the ac-
counts of each might be easily examined. He had, there-
fore, an extra estimate to offer to the House, because of
the separation which be bad effected among the heads of
charges that had formerly been put together. These heads

consisted of army provisions, of transports, of provisioe,
fur the outward passage of convicts, and of the means
ht
their conveyance. During the last four yeare, sums I!
been voted for timber and materials which bad been at`
plied to other purposes. He had discovered the want
these materials, and he hail therefore thought it of Par
mount importance that the arsenals of the dock-yan,
should be replenished with materials, and that steamer;
gines should be purchased for the purpose of prelim' °!,
steam-boats of war.—(Hear.) With regard to the no;
her of men, although there was an apparent increase
er'L
extent of 3,000, the House would be deceived If chef,
could, in reality, take place under the vote he prof°
ess
imagined that any augmentation of force to that
for on the Ist of January, although the vote last year woe;
for 20,000 seamen and 9,000 marines, he yet found, 700
his accession to his present office, that there were 21,
for
seamen, and 9,300 marines-500 of these being super
meraries. The number was now less, and he asked
the larger number of 22,000 seamen, and 10,000
great
tines for the express purpose of not keeping ag-
number of men than Parliament by its express vote
04
authorised , He would keep a large margin in his aces
It was not the intention of the Government to keeps"" the
men afloat, hut he asked for the means of keeping urfgee,
force which he found in existence, on acceding ra° eot
without violating that principle which the Governinars
ought always to observe, but which had of late. Governs
been set aside.—(Hear, hear.)---The increased estiff,,t
as it stood last year, was 5,595,0001.—he now asked of
5,852,0001., which gave an apparent increase
256,0001. He could explain that in the following
the
The estimate for last year was for 29,000 Ina' telly'
number really employed was greater. He non' I—ae.
asked for 32,000—(Hear, hear)—and that gave an
in-
parent increase in the estimate of 101,000/. Thews,
creased sum for building materials, and for steam-eV-0a
ex9eted;
was 130,0001. ; for works in the yard, 94,000/. %cello
quire(' this year. The whole of the expenditure Pr
present year was thus frankly avowed ; whereas, d°lo,
the last year, several of the items of expense werll al et
ouaiy suppressed.—(Hear, hear.) So also, with rdliis
to the money expended at Bombay, where a considers of
sum bad been expended without asking the permis!'°!"the
Parliament. A sum of money was still required for
purpose of finishing the work there begun, and the that
vernment now asked for that money to be devoted to
is of
especial purpose. Yet, notwithstanding all the Libre ite
expense were thus avowed, the estimate would be folios,.
be 114,456/. less for the present than for the last Yews'
He would now state the manner in which this saving he
effected. He candidly avowed that he did not think ttbe
a moment at which he could ask for a dimintitioo of rri
force of the country.—(Hear, hear.) On the eontrts let
he thought it his duty to state that that force ol' rs
maintained on the same footing as during the last be
and that the sum on account of the dock-yard 00' •
greater. Ile had, however, made the following orals
ment, by which considerable sums would be saved te.
country. He had reduced the offices of ten Corona t;
ers of the Navy, at salaries of from 1,0001. t01,5000,,1 S
two Commissioners of the Victualling Board at 1,00);e1
year ; one draughtsman of the Navy Board, at 13„0,
of 350/. ; and two clerks, at from 300/. to 500/. .
The Treasurer of the Navy had no salary. It v' Fidel
posed to abolish the Paymaster of the Marines, 5.,0 re•
transfer his duties to several other officers. He 11°'` at
duce(' fifty-six officers in the dock-yards, elorg`..A -bs
22,3051. a year. But from that saving there ought,e
deducted 7,5301. for superannuation, which, however' tied
left a clear saving of 16,624/. a year.—(Hear.)—'He
also reduced 18 other taco, held by persons who t•
not entitled to pensions, to the amount of 3,0504 ref
annum. The whole of the offices, therefore, that jot
been reduced amounted to 27,2351.—(Hear.)--it o,ae joi
for him now to point out to the House, as it had bee°
painful duty to do so on a former occasion, that imPr°oite
goer,
certain bargain with the Commissariat ; but he sva';'esto
certain that, without asking the authority of that 0°,,,--t•
he ought not to dismiss from the public service any ee
sons entitled under that bargain to superannuato",ett
their dismissal, without extending to them the full beethe
of that bargain—(Hear)—and, therefore, whereverhet
superannuations had been due, he had given them;
toe
where he thought that an office was superfluous 11,d,hed
necessary, regardless of superannuations, he had ahu'„ a
it. In the other cases, however, an useless office "cgs
needless incumbrance, while a superannuation was
charge, and time was in favour of the public.—(ife'rjech
He had also carried into effect another alteration,
had been contemplated by his predecessor. There s(‘-eag
large number of public servants, who, notwithstlr
the bargain to which he had alluded, received safari apes
stead of daily wages. He had put 114 of these Pe 00
upon daily wages, and the benefit of the super he
lot
would revert to them on their retirement. The 'l7lOl
• Hon. Baronet then moved a resolution, ,s That the 'the
of 1,081,6001. should be greeted to his Majesty fer pit
wages of 32,000 men, for 13 lunar months, from the
January, 1831, at the rate of 21. 12s. per man." feadf
Sir G. CLERK thought himself called upon to ue, eee
the late Ministry, and believed that he should h°'`fer•
very difficult ta,ls in doing so, since the Right garl'ooo
menet himself had quoted the authority of Mr. Het° 00
the subject. To the authority of that Learned Persono'or
one was more willing than himself to bow with dee. or
mission; and in the present instance he found rha"teel,
thority was in his favour; for Mr. Hatstll expressly of the
that in the expenditure upon the Navy, on account dot
different circumstances attending both, the House dy he
require so much strictness as in those of the army ming*
was not mistaken, the late Mr. Fox, when 1,0 state'
situation at the Navy Board, had made, the same arse
merit. Tee attempt which the Right Hon. Baronet sad
now about to make, had been made in Arnerr°4,eses
abandoned as impracticable. The American Cot.n:ol'
was, however, even more jealous with respect to r"-, of
ministration of the public money than was the 11°06hieh
Commons, and yet they had abandoned the scheme gee
the Right Hon. Baronet was now about to try`„"jeall
peered from the report of the Secretary to the ilareack
Navy, made to Congress last year, that such was t'eftiglir
By the way, he should wish to know from rhe, 090
Hon. Baronet, how lie found out that the law '9 le en'.
regulated the Navy Estimates. That Act carom loch
acted regulations with r, spect to the Bank of El had
and their transactions with the Government; but ; bet
nething to do with the Navy. There was, indee 'NOY
not at that time, a change in the mode of voting the
ate►
Estimates. The vote had been taken in one gru°4,"
QQ
but it was divided into three heads in the year Oro.°
to last year a general estimate had been given, but
important change took place in the mode of voting r""tioler
plies; but it was not the intention of Parliament tewbett
the change which the Right Hon. Baronet supposed•
tidal
it was proposed in that year to vote the ordinary e°.eed
for the Navy, of three or four millions, it was ob„iiirsts -"!
that there ought to be. separate votes for each!ert the
division of expenditre. Any person whhad t o lkea °So*
estimates would obseurve the change that locked iFLce.
estimates would obsemve the change that ha-I taket'
01'j slor
He repeated that the Right Hon, Baronet would 6 Afne;
change. he now meditated quite impracticable ; rhecoor't
mans had done so, and the American auditor of '‘,ac
had said that they must take enough to cover all —„etree'"
geodes. The Right Hen. Baronet had called rheleiry'
to which he had alluded a growing abuse. get`t
Clerk) denied that it was so. There was no eorrlie o(
pose served by it. The persons who made out too °
mates always gave them according to their bustthe
the , !her
information. He was, however, anxious to see
Lance sheet promised by the Right Hon. Barofle„;.
books that existed in the Navy offices had not Je eel/
object to slow the precise expenditure of thew -
voted. Those books had been constructed with of 'if
object of checking the receipts and disburseineutt'd 1104,
Treasurer of the Navy. A change, however, barnacle
taken place in the books. That change u'us c000°;01
Mr. Thomson, who bad proposed new books of 900 d
of which he had no doubt the balance sheet no"ltoode6,
by the Right Hon. Baronet was the result. lt,' 3'
keeping the accounts was tried for the first tio:e 1 r
iol'
'0
as an experiment. There was a great doubt 0' be
experiment would succeed, but after various.,ti ,_
nevi,.., •
provemeets having been gradually introduc d S°Pae
believed the system had nearly arrived at perfectiothe olo.A
time ago there was a Committee of Inquiry into oil
of keeping the public accounts, and the systern 00w0eorl
by the Right Honourable Baronet was then witrr'' •
C° wt.
‘psr'hedieehc predecessors and it could n- tbe expected, that when such PtiCil
was. in existence, 'the Victualling Board worild.
ciples
their decision. These were the general Pr'°l3oroue.ve
defended e d
his
se
presentcond u c t
ooffif tchee. Rightie oe
so
flr got
ti
he , -
some explanations on a few of the items- vrtant, at
these related to the works at Wsevel, near parole d
The victualling establishment was carried °",equeocd to
Gosport, and partly at Portsmouth, and in ee,TO foe° nge
that circumstance much inconvenience $4'5501'100 c_Abalt- to
arise. The Lord High Admiral (for to hime eve': the
was owing) observed the inconveniem a, 1.1" rots atee
remedy it by uniting the victualling establishln.le expels,
place which lie had mentioned. Consider`` two °log i
was of course incurred in the removal of the or' lot
blishments to one point, but the estimate nOvieesled tg la
table by the Right Hon. Baronet certainly ffiee.
o
it had been when he (Sir G. Clerk) was best" or°
1827 (under Mr. Canning's Administration be no re ,0
• that Areal
a Treasury Order was made, affecting he the
tae- nese
should be taken on that account than had "COl the
late years. Directions were also given t"

~'WOm

ti Athlths
•ansports, of provisio i od bt-zgl, should be used as Well as they could, and all tlle
r, and of the means f tie u"lgs were to be sold. In consequence of the ar-
lrejtteetlie_ntsothen made, the Admiralty was enabled to make
t four years, sums larr
Is which had been aid
te-"utezirtase the amount of 4,000/. or 5,000/. annually.
discovered the want 4
ite thought it of pare ti„,.‘
~ , to which the Right Hon. Baronet referred
, ad aaye7 or -Leith harbour. Upon that subject he should
IaIS of the doeK-Y tltzoille
on
the Treasury would suspend the works
ule, and that ateara-eW
of
p_epariet lorit'lef , until a new survey had been taken. That
purpose r
11' Ask
Of ' however, begun undur the authority of an
ith regard to the ov
h, „.. . Parliarnen
apparent increase to t ti.7l"sietit
ay.., t• He had objseted to it on a former
if the!, „ma But,
he had then been left shine in his opposi-
I be deceived
f force to that extent o',ooo/. Ia: .
esaid the Right Hon. Baronet, a sum of
ittlernmettl,b
ten expended upon the works, without the
• the vote he prerP°9edi
li the vote last year war: the the ni%e•oining to Parliament for authority to ex-
yet found' /11" e Act of ,-, Y; If the Hon. Baronet would look into
es, he es,ooo ertsett. rarliament, he would find that the persons
iat there were x"
a- Pltt eu er a dock
opera 00,iteet. The at that place gave it to the naval de-
if these being consequence wae, that the Government
ess, and We
Deer required the naval yard at Leith, and from the
he asked for Ia
r, and 10,000 °Pr is t
a greet.
itta of
rtta Premises the Government had obtained the
not keeping
vote had tieq not I.'e'Y that had been expended. Thosepremises
y its "Pre" „ant,. ii,a,' 1,4 fact, sold ; for the value of su '
ch premises
nargin in his aaso ood kit4t eta. utepreciat de . The re:son was, that if they had
eminent to keen 3"'' he he 4 the sal
. 0,, t of th • e• the could not have obtained the full va-
sans of keeping e4e,e, hoe, eill ; so that, in
to uOl re, th maje , fact, the money was only an ad-
, on acceding
000 spkt, by the Government towards the erection or
hich the Gover the . The Right Hon. Baronet had also spoken of
ch had of late ye . eeet,.,,
_iota iaoneyer °I 'sure of Woolwich, and had said that the
he increased e" for llt I* •'Cknded ~ed , bee was three times the amount of that voted.
'ol.—lie now a" of should "O It would no: he found •to be quite so much. It
increase ~. be
apparent e....-- There e recollected, too, that it •
,
i the f,liowing ote;,•,ho Piste' uad been a dwarf wall protecting the shore from the
r 29,000 men, line)), • tet ' It was
14,40,
%al Itn danger of dropping down, and the Go-
:en He now P'e-
liNi opp:n.lt
n.t >eel., obliged to repair it, and had taken
and that gave a 5):
I,ttitiost hit,"
.i Y to alter its position, because its old
• 101,0001. The in
Itiene. _ it injured the passage of the river, by col-
and for stearn-edee4 . ;it'll lupe,: quantity of mud on the Opposite shore.
'and, 94,000/. Wererhee '4lsoo:tanti.,
in in such a dilapidated state, tl•at it was
lie expenditure for t.
danger of fallina. If the Right Ho-
sed ; whereas, "111 it, rliiie'n
as ter •isee, aronet would look into the correspondence
f expense were -,e et eltii -4 the
. etti, _ Admiralty and the persons who were
So also, with relebt
„ .., e morin "g that work, be would find numerous re-
where a consider of IL% raneea frorn the Admiralty not to spend more money
king the rmi"ien Yes leas al
pe , _ the r
t, usolutely necessary. Although d • daring the last
still required l's-Go. bet, ne Government Y-
d the ne, it ent intended that nething more should
•e begun, an that aril! was found necessary to extend
-to be devoted to of linger Portion of the
wall had actually given way. A
oding all the ohjectl to ripe sant of ...0
int
oared ;hotth moos had been expended than was at first
nate would he fair ~ had arisen from the nei'eisity of effect-
than for the last Yelo tott arger repairs'
Ni rron, than had at first been deemed requisite,
which this saving lio
.„ e circumstance that it was necessary to pra-
the did not think t) that With
4 the tth the work rapidly ; and the House would see
for a diminution " -.. lisle e Gov
s e, .. Government were justified in increasing the ex-
) On the coot" pro., a lien he
mast 1." th 'etl to informed them that 50/. a week was ex-
it that force
eon eriefee . Put out the water that haul broken in through
s during the last r , lair t tIV
e &wall It'
1 oda "s e ee A • , tinder these circumstances, in any one
dock-yard 9 I . nh ve node& • f d funds
,
the following the i
fhl Area, 'rich they could undertake these works, he was
would be saved e°. ‘e,• eared
00" it. tr, h to say that they were justified in doing so.
lof ten Con° • Iht ear.).....11e
aar• k now came to another charge of the
to I,sool.anit a c 6,0 Ron, B
14). Opt ~or aronet —he meant to the expenditure of
' Board at 1,0°`"• •
44,1 mint'
the
building of a line•of battle ship at Born-
'lyngßoard, at a salad Government had not taken a vote of that
sou to soot a Yeif. 40,0 t 4 th,t
.„•pro' OO4 Purpose. In the estimates for 1829 a sum of
> salary. It was Ito Berl i.
, was inserted for the purpose of building that
the Marines, le• 6,0 'ne of-h
4,044
wa attic ship. In the course of that year only
officers. He 113 u 'e; iii
tOO/. devoted
for that purpose, so that a sum of
ock yards, charged s ,tlithe h_.9 to the building of the ship still remained
ving- there' ought fetidW I,4.4l4'i:flied ofi Government. The application of the
which, however, d ,
Vag tl et efore made strictly in accordance
r.—(Hear.)---lie bl'e I 4re the
Bepurpose for which it was voted. If the Right
by persons who see e I Sir..
to baialitee t would take the trouble of looking into
mount of 3,05°4 bed ' sheet of the Navy accounts of 1829, he
, therefore, that h 1 4:14 find
__a sent .t 4 %let 613 to be the case. If the Right Hon.
-(Hear.). It sv
t 0 eir ' ilialty a w°1•11,1 look at the Records of the Ad-
use, as it had bee 14,. 4t7,0 '
the would find among them such a balance sheet,
casion, that itnPr°•fe thrs, eP in isa
it ;
bat
he
was qui 4, total o_l.} -9, as would satisfy even him. As to
i tthe number' of men to be employed in the Navy, it
liorit of that We?:
_., dr Cr; eters. tio? Int expectation of the late Government on
blie Y •
service a°l E
oi kque " t the fleet from the Mediterranean to be able
• odor,' 61 It 4 e that
e supeiannu e , , nutnber from 32,000 men '
to only 27,000
them the full belithe 1 'rote r hey had not,
et% the time
had indeed,. made. that reducticn, be.
erefore, wherever to
not quite arrived when the late Minis-
had given thew; I/0; to:quid ca,
, 1W fe'gott ry their intentions into effect. It ought not
superfluous an +r
~kttil,s,o en, that the sum voted for the Navy last year
ions, he had ainsi i ' "001 ,of •
office WO, 111 f IPtht which less than 5,300,0001. had
a useless A ler 4 'so that
. a pc . taro
~,there remained a balance of 280,000/.
Tannuation ryas ~.. atit ur the country - that had -
bi. eirear./. thee retire . y , sum not been disposed
epu te.—e . „cf. „,!peoe . zoned in the Exchequer, applicable to any
they alteration, $ Net 'to Which
_,,ao It pro the present servants of the Crown might
cessor. There 7,4 t,tipdie4:e Per to devot 't Th It' h H e t on. Baronet con-
who, notwithstaa'',.... d the de •
a.
_i pf
~ the _ awing out of this sum, and contemplated
. received s im mops
t, the ete: "PeLding of 280,000/. abave the amount
114 of these Pe
pop ir of Lt.nat,s of last • •that the year ;F 0
of the supertuan°„. et 4itt /6Year k t., g rxec.ri would be about 560,0001.—(Hear.)—
. ent. TheePls,o
, ot rne,m,,
That
tb sae' N_ e Navl2lecl the mode in which the accounts relative
foe
foiet e
,e C. ~Y, had_ usually been divided, the Hon. Baronet
to hie Majesty ","_. 10 ,Oere.. Clerk) denied that the Act of
last ear rendered
months, from t°' sse„-""dtv t„ 9
„ j , tie IrizbirC'th u separate the charge for victualling the
2s. per man.
defelr -. • 1, 4Pere e other expenses of that department. From
called upon to t, oe ~ krt wa 'Tun the tbl • a e it was impossible to ascereain
I he should ha ips th'ooo -/I'd be th '
t, toen.
___ e cost of the wages and victuals for
the Right Horn 00
e,r_tsdi rer‘terega,_ The Right Hen. Baronet had mis-stated
sty of Mr. r" 0 li e ated ''' amount of the whole estimates,—and
as they
at Learned Petard°,
salt skirt e out, it
. ~., 00 soy e for .... was net singular that neither the Hoc.
to bow with Ill" ,ow S. ever aitchllesex nor other
ce he found tbar,4 , tittle furaet• . , any Hon. Gentleman,
„„ ised in cafe I. t• attirit_, u d tone, could understand them.
ratstll expressly strh, e • er
' ni the
Neter jteitiefft advantage ought to have been stated, in
vy, en account,ia 0 littetibie i 3• such a departure from the old, simple, and
;h, the House °if he tilted to I:°utae. With reference to su *
perannuations, he
!e of the arixtf• ..• & se:t4t4, now where the Right Hon. Baronet found in
, eeldide , Statute
an .
- ox, when tee tili anus . ything that warranted him in saying that a
made, the saine Was salt• 44°11
t iv Ito allowance did not belong
ht Hon. Rae° sail r tY of • 11,1 d. paid p i weekly, though it did belong to a
tde in America, , „esiote 1504• .
,-,oo;re''' vsiiti log, te. Paid quarterly ? According to this mode of
American '-',. 01'. 4401 to the First Lord
of the Admiralty would not be
ith res ect to the of tt .hd • it u_e
, p I
toe
",..., toes_ p rannuation allowance if the Hon. Member
in was the liewhie ai: of he. were to move and cat r bit motion, that •
y
led the scheme ur it, ia, ben paid
, it ,‘ Lis , 11, 5,000/. a year lie should receive
about to tt.)'.„ericall "
i eli• Bateo2d. per day —(Hear, hear.) The Right
trey to the l'''',,, fOW Ira Yard robed talked . much of his reductions in the
sat such was e"- •here `) hid8 tit
be itig 0 th in , e extent of 56 offices ; but he (Sir
tow from t i 79 Lord %tee "ed ov G.
over the papers, and could make no
hat the law al! en, 014 Of v 'ler. Th
oy , oil, lie Ad , e first itetn was the salary of the First
:at Act certa lad, he ,e te mireltv r
of Elig 0 ~, Ikoll gat this . u 9,000/. a year ; and here lie must
le Bankmet
.I_, it
Jo_
tl se4eeteti
.% charge was rather extraordinary, when
•ern n si),',"ed,
y;
koss
.Gast yraril, e nature and tendency of a speech deli-
tre was,. in i'lei.., 10 .
1114to;:iled that ay the Right lion. Baronet himself who
le of voting Li"' 0001 Ile t. St had distinguished situation. T' •ee Right Hon.
en in one groo„ a et, ,et, ti called th
iggi• t -seer, eas eh e especial attention of the House to
n the year thee ht lee of e father of the Mille Lord opposite,
the
!en given, but or illii t 1 t'' the
Exeh
tbe _ke :k e the First Lo eqtter, had received only 3,0001.
ode of voting
. .0 to
, . 'as h
.e Not, .rd of the Admiralty in time of war,
f Parliament ' sirar it, Nob b ',a %in
ed. 1 0, jace
onet suppos b•ois it., this . 'Lowed 5 0001 year •
, a in the time of peace.
the ordinary e'`! td * beery .
objee ~ 04 Biro,t ation, he had expected that the Right
ions, it etas earrt Nt 4h* would
shit
1,4 is war..
.. have felt it due to himself to have
Ito fur each ea` the
htt 04. kurn... /1' It only to show that his speech was not
on who looked a,,hice. I,
io CieritNasnd idle declamation. Nevertheless, he
hat had take°
yid tba '
6° or 'tai LlDade, beed very glad that no such reduction had
ronet would Alilt Use he thought
; the 014 iIL kii. not e., , the high duties of the
,„ticahle ,
_co
._, 1 1,"4 of t Ile ea„," be dischai•ged for a smaller emolument.
in auditor ot i'„notdr,, tjt h. 414,4 1" that it . •
was intended to refer the goes-
to cover all l'estet,'" ' N itht b., to aco
, ~: 40..,4i0n. 1,.._ mmittee—( Hear, hear)—but surely
!lad called Ihe Be't ut .
ge ( i
or, i I,itTe 4-24 tlp ,_:.'4.1.?1:1.7t ought, in the first instance, to
• abuse. , ~a o._eltie,rB, (.?1 ills own principles. As regarded infe-
corn the
reti. 4
was no _ die ot .;Ity 47 Ntharl e Right Hon. Baronet had proceeded
I made out
tearetur L 444 the sePs undue rigour, for be had reduced the
, their best' the ,a rteet tYsfie eretarY to the Admiralty
inzious to see l'i': tll IT to e Per
, . tp he 01 cent. Tine it was the present 1
Hon. Barotir„ tool Oee RC e
t for
on 10 hi 'gilt ,Admiralty was not in Parliament,
.es bad no too h ip ,"e io the }louse next week. The
liture of the sto"
iti)let4
h.., Pre I'e
, with tile;the tlikt Iltt k"hte,l of the Board of Trade had
•ticteel _to or of ttk tite io °lle eh, ut hy the friends of the Ri ht Hon
disburseine!" tell
i ie4:•111. l•Nde 4t ought to be reduced in ti 't g•
d.
however, boa
. je
1, i )110ilit4ter
Dent of the Board of Trade‘ t 1 "as
urge
ought not also
hinge was ";.,00°"ed Ott then'. ' the Aline • t
, wtto a salary attached to each
v books of 9"-dar`•/ • 04,14'4, h It tem. •
,pr ,e 0 kt, do ~W vs allied ta be seen as bat the present
e sheet P° pr
6 Vte, Ivitit "eY them, i .
e ,Ls held those appointments,
It• Th6t 10 ) I %Int h th"or•
'
'esti • . ein er
~1 t, ea, i, reeae, • The principle of the present 1111-
e first tin.., do, . , i kreferf tollitti, au to offices, w , .. •
as avowed.), this t—when-
t doubt %vile. 1, 0 , )tmt4 'ace an offic
• ,ow to . tith to kto the eof no use, they abolished it, with-
T variou ooor, „ ~„ ht. r. 7, exp,i,„ of.
superannuation ; but with
robe d ii" SO' iet•N "ee ticker, 0
ec.,,..0, 0
~ veil the in",., ne fi the Surveyors of the Navy,
lat perf two otej kit 4 .
e1ia,,,4"1-", of 6661 they .1. I 7 .4-. actually in.-
iquiry int° PPS, ill, ,w. Milli 'e of
the
Of It fl o lth sttre t , public, by abolishing the si
esystein no
_OO.
le IN:4 regar "an committ dan -
e error of a rent
s then rec u'onit'e, IN tti intend t° Jamai •
ca-yard. The late servants of
such adC° riell's th '4 ' hki ing t 0
mar,,oo .° to °,°,, 0 ~,,,,, sent one
of
that establishment as tin-
:eneral Peilittcifeone.t,O i'Ziteiloll.inisa,/: the ightf..the Commissioners to Bermuda,
Right 11°1'., '-„,pof gtv f to(4.lone on trte, b Flom Baronet came into office,
- to - td • - tettetAe esr ap„o. relight back to .1 •
lie w° To fill 01,•t littl of kt, clef; of fo B , Jamaica, and a wvv
r Bermuda. The Hon. Ba-
items. too° 0 mit he iktoioo k) then
near For rtly f 11..A4 _t Of. adverted to the frauds, to the
, ~
~n ps
..e 0 .oi.
ho e
Ina 4, I,:t detected by Mr. Ves” Fitz9-eralil
rarrieacoll_oooo;, 0 i
t h_ttt4
act? IttittedYnl"ter
of the Nav which frauds
nil ians
orteo feuhautige iit
t i'e, held the
awhile a Right Hon. Gentleman
:e str
.1,.., this cA to tthSte,tiltikkiill.hough RPointment, and treated it as a mereop
rto I 1s"; „ropo."-the 1,4
11 11 4tl 81°het ute Right lion B • -.1
! . Baronet had reduced
~ ,„, ael roe at ets t.9‘ %kr ew we of the v.
, Igoe ,„co h, b,, .t cp ictualling Board, he had
!stair . bie eardea ea, Ustet t called the A
3onsidera ,10, eea eNassed, Dent,., and ho_ t Accountant-General of
val
of the i.a
0, sp. q,,,,t,.... of-~0 it hi, -
own
he created that office?
nate now 131
,_a fib!
iii4',4•1.7 ,i, all
,L
..40, ..,e Other offi,er This
ainly
ace: a,
__. . , eiktetsl a gea,. g all
• Mc'
.Yea), , %D. .4 ~ he patronage,
,* course, for a
was in „lies, , .1,4,41 h at.) Fie wag a little extraor•
section be ;0 Ow; "Niq,,,t. tart,,,,, of agreed that the individual op.
1 tb the °,..net bad ,
treat information ; but if the
itig that _ take .
'1
ate_, House, en Ppened now to sit on the Oppo.
a had been
the ;Jew
Who)
p, ne would,
iven at °teed in. _ , probably, hive desig-
-5 41 A scandalous job..-( Hear,

hear.) He (Sir G. Clerk) objected to many of the reduc-
tions of the Dock-yards, and particularly to that of the
office of mechanist at Portsmouth. This individual had the
superintendence of the complicated machinery for the ma-
nufacture of blocks ; and, although it ❑light be injudicious
and expensive (as an Hon. Baronet, Sir H. Parnell had
shown) for the King to manufacture anything, still, as
long as the establishment was kept up, the (Mice of me-
chanist seemed necessary ; mote particularly at a time
when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking a vote of
60.000/. for constructing steam engines. He only en-
treated the Right Hon. Baronet to visit the Dock. yards
himself, and he woul,l soon be satisfied, from personal ex-
perience, of the importance of many of the offices he had
abolished.—(Hear, hear.) He had compared the abstract
which had been furnished by the late Ministers with that
which had hen prepared by the pre:ent Cabinet, and by
that comparison it appeared that the proposed expenditure
of this year considerably exceeded that which woulel have
been incurred had the late Ministers continued in office.
In the naval part there was an increase of 261,0001., as
the estimates on the table were for 4,657,000/., whereas,
had there been no change in the Cabinet, they would have
been only 4,396,0001. The estimate for the Victualling
Department was also a small excess : it was 1,217,000/.
instead of 1,930,000/., making an increase of 19,000/.
The grand tot.! of the Navy Estimates this year, as com-
pared with those of the last year, presented the following
result :
This year £5,875,28ti
Last year 5,894,953

Making a difference of X:280,431
Thus, as he had already stated, there was an exceeding
of 280,0001. beyond the sum of 280,0001. which the
last Ministers had saved, which was deposited in the
Exchequer, and which the present meant to apply to
their own purposes. Thus, supposing they did not exceed
their estimates by the end of the year, they would have
spat 560,0001. more than their predecessors in office.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—The playfulness and good
humour of the Hon. Baronet called upon him to reply to
the observations he had made in the same spirit. He
would first dismiss what related personally to himself, when
the Hou. Baronet had reminded him (Sir J. Graham) of
a speech he had made on a former occasion, relative to
the salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty. He assured
the Hon. Baronet that that salary had not remained unre-
duced from any omission on his (Sir J. Graham's) part.
The fact was, that the propriety of appointing a Com-
mittee to review the salaries of all public officers who were
Members of either House, was at this moment tinder con-
sideration.—(Hear, hear.) On that ground only had he
consented to fill the situation he. held, waiting only till the
proper time for investigation should arrive. For himself
he would say, that he thought any salary, however small,
was infinitely more than would be merited by any services
he could hope to render. The Hon. Baronet has! himself
assigned the reason why the salary of the office of Secre-
tary to the Admiralty had been reduced. The individual
holding it was not a Member of the House, and conse-

quently Ministers bad thought themselves justified in deal-
ing with it without the intervention of a preliminary in-
quiry by a Committee. The Secretary himself, he was
happy to add, was perfectly satisfied with the reduction
that had been made. The Hon. Baronet had alluded to
what he (sir J. Graham) had formerly said regarding the
augment ttion of the salary of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty. That alteration, it was to be remembered, occurred
at a period when the value of money was greatly depreci-
ated. He was sure the Right Hon. Baronet would do him
the justice to remember, that when he sat on the opposite
side of the House, he comp] lined not only of the high sa-
lary of the Nohle Viscount, thin First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, hut, more especially, that besides he held the great
sinecure place of Lord Privy Seal for Scotland.—(Hear.)
The principle for which he had contended, whilst sitting
on the opposite side, and from which he had not departed
upon coining round to the side on which he then stood,
was, that when any person holding a sinecure office
should also hold a high office in the State, the emo-
lument of the sinecure should merge in the salary of
the other office, in the same manner as the half-pay
of a military officer merges in the salary of any civil place
to which be may be appointed.—(Hear, bear, hear.)
He held it to be grossly improper that officers of the
highest rank should receive their full pay, nt the same time
that they held civil offices with a high salary, whereas the
half-pay of an officer of inferior rank, amounting to no
more than 150/. a year, would be suspended upon his
taking an office in the State.—(Hear.)---He thought it
unfair that the smaller half-pay should be subject to that
rule, whilst the Secretary of State received a salary of
6,0001. a-year from that place, holding at the same time '
a military appointment with high pay; and the First
Lord of the Admiralty, having a salary of 5,0001., held
a sinecure office in Scotland, with emoluments amounting
to 3.000/. a • year.—(Hear.)—The que,tion now before

. -
the Committee was, was the salary of the First Lord of
the Admiralty fairly open to reduction, and he threw him-
self upon the House fully contented to rest upon their de-
cision respecting it. He hoped the House woull, at all
events, acquit him of subterfuge or baseness in any of his
proceedings. He would be judged-by them and by the
country, as to whether he could be accused of anything
mercenary—(Hear)—in his past conduct—be was going to
say in his future conduct ; but then he looked upon all
such promises as vain and empty at all times.—(Hear.)
—He trusted that his Right Hon. Friend near him would
give the House a satisfactory account of the manner in
which he performs the duties of his office. By under-
taking it in conjunction with the Presidency of the Board
of Trade, he had saved 2,0001. a year to the country.
•—(Hear, hear.)—When his Right Hon. Friend sat
on the opposite side, he then contended that it was
possible to effect the saving, and that the duties of
the Treasurer of the Navy were compatible with the
business of another office; and now the question was
!educed to this—had the duties been adequat,ly per-
formed cr not?—(Hear, hear.)--As far as he (Sir
J. Graham) was competent to judge, they had ben
efficiently discharged. The habits of business, the atten-
tion and the industry of his Right Hon. Friend, unable('
him to perform the two offices in an efficient manner.
He must admit, that no Administration had ever been
more tenacious than the last, whenever it was attempted
to touch any place held by a Member of that House. When
the gentlemen with whom he (Sir J. Graham) had now

the honour to act, endeavoured to obtain the conjunction
of the Treasurership of the Navy with anoth, r office, the
late Ministry strenuously apposed reduction, and they ob•
rained a vote of that House for the continuance of the

two offices apart. But the present Administration te-
fused to shelter thetwelves under that vote ; and, on
coming into office, acted upon the principle for which they
bad contended when in the Opposition. They united the
Treasurership of the Navy with the Presidency of the
Board of Trade, and thereby effected, as he had already
stated, a saving of 2,0001. a year. The Right Hun.
Baronet had asserted that the duties of Treasurer of the
Navy were cot discharged, in paint of fact, by the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, but that he received assistance
from a person who had been superannuated from that office.
Now he (Sir J. Graham) had the authority of the pre-
sent Treasurer for saying that he would undertake of him-
self the whole of the dutiea—(Hear.) As to the assist-
ance which his Right Hen. Friend was said to receive
from the person alluded to, did not the Right Hon.
Baronet know that there was a positive order in writing,
forbidding the late Stirreyor to the Navy from going near
•the Navy Office—(Hear, hear)—and that the duties had
been for many years per'ormed actively, a-alously, and
efficiently by the• present Surveyor, but exclusively
performed by him alone ? He would give the House a
further instance of the accuracy of the Right Han.
Baronet's statements. The Admiralty Commissiorer for
Bermuda, who had been for some time sick in England, put
his resignation into my hands ; and tl:en the question
arose whether the duties at Bermuda should continua to b
performed by the Commissioner for Jamaica, who had for
same time discharged them, together with his own duties,
during the illness and alaence of the gentleman who had
since resigned ? The Government were desirous that, as
the Jamaica Commissioner hail conducted the Admiralty
business of Bermuda efficiently, a considerable saving
might he effected in the public expense by uniting the two
offices. But it was found impracticable to do so. He
requested the Howe to mark what would have been the
result if the statements of the Right Hon. Baronet were
accurate. It had evidently been intende I to establish
' against him a charge of having left the union of two
offices separate for the sake of patronage, and of having
fixed upon the country an unnecessary' charge for the pen-
sion of the retired Commissioner. But what was the
fact? The gentleman who resigned, and who was a rela-
tive of a Gallant Baronet opposite, had only been ap-
pointed two years ago, and therefore, had no claims for a
pension. He hoped. that he had made himself clearly un-
derstood by the House. He begged their attention to the
result. He had offered to a gallant ofiieer (of whom he
had personally no knowledge, but had done much sarviee
to his country, and had received many and severe wounds)
the command of the first 'frigwe to which he had an op-
portunity of app tinting him. The officer of whom he
spe ke was Captain Usher, with whose merits and set vice
many Hon. Members were acqaaintsd.—(Hear, hear,
hear.)—But that gallant officer I--eing unabled to go to
sea again in 'consequence of his wounds, requested hint
(Sir J. Graham) to give him some ot! er appointment
instead of the command of the frigate, for whist
his health rendered bins incompetent. Pursuing, there-

fore, his vietti of the public service, he nominated Captain
Usher to the vacant Commissionership at Bermuda.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—So much for the disregard of the
puldic interests, and of his own promises, with which it
bad been attempted to charge him. So much fur the ac-
curacy of the -Right Hon. Baronet's statements, and for
the fairness of his insinuations.--( Hear, hear. I—As to,
the allusion which had been made to a Right Hon. Baro-
net opposite—after the opposition which that Gentleman
had given to the late Ministry, and the consequences of
that opposition, the phrase which had been used certainly
surprised him, (Sir J. Graham.) His experience con-
vinced him that the best security for the public was the
individual responsibility of all persons filling important
offices. Now be considered two persons in one office
exactly the number that was least advisable on the ground
of secure responsibility. For if they differed in opinion,
who was to decide between them? What he bad done,
therefore, respecting, the Medical Commissioners was this.
Wheu one of them, being a gentleman upwards of 70 years
old, gave in his resignation, he (Sir J. G.) determined
not to have that place filled, having long before made up
his mind that one Commissioner was sufficient. It had
been asked, how was assistance to be got, during the occa-
sional absence of the Medical Commissioner at the out-
ports? The Surgeon and Physician of Greenwich Hospi-
tal would attend to the business of the Commission in his
absence. He would rest the character and conduct of his
Administration upon one transaction which had been re-
ferred to. It happened that the Deputy Chairman of the
Victualling Board was also Secretary to the Navy Board ;
and with all respect to naval men, he would say, that if
there was any one employment for which they were less
qualified than another, it was the superintendence of public
accounts. The gentleman of whom he spoke was an old
officer upon half-pay, and, all things considered, he (Sir
J. Graham) had thought it best for the public service that
he should be removed from the department connected with
the accounts. Put allusion had been made to a gentleman
who was Secretary in the Accountant's Department, and
whom he had made his private secretary. The circum-
stances were these : —Upon his (Sir James Graham's) first
coming into office, that gentleman was recommended to
him as his private secretary by two of his (Sir J. Gra-
ham's) relations, of whom one had been for several years
connected with the Victualling Board, and had known the
ability and experience of that gentleman in keeping public
accounts. But in the course of ten days, although he
derived the greatest advantages and convenience himself
from the assist:nee of that gentleman as his private secre-
tary, yet, finding that his being so occupied interfered with
his duties in the public office, he (Sir J. Graham) pre-
ferred undergoing the inconvenience which be should suf-
fer by being deprived of the gentleman's assistance, to occa-
sioning any neglect of the public service, and accordingly
he allowed him to return to those duties which he was so
comp: tent to discharge. He thought it right to add, that
the gentleman bof been wholly unknown to him two
months before. That was the transaction upon which the
Right Hun. Baronet had thought proper to charge him
with defection of the principles which he had maintained
when sitting on the other side of the House.—( Hear,
hear.) " Ah, Sir (said Sir J. Graham), I have
had to do with other subjects very different from that
since I came into office." An insinuation had been made
respecting jobs, in the case of the works at Leith. Now
what was the fact ? He found that there had been a con-
tract entered into with the public, the conditions of which
had not been fulfilled, and the Right Hon. Baronet op-
.posite had opposed their fulfilment. But he (Sir James
Graham) had called on the contractors to make good
their bargain, and one of them, an Hon. Gentleman op-
posite, acknowledged the contract and agreed that it should
be fulfilled, and he had kept his word. An outlay had
been made upon those works by the Navy Board, who
advanced 8,9001. for them. Now, he would say, that
the consent of the House ought to have been obtained for
that Outlay —(Hear, hear. )—But the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite considered the sum expended upon the
African squadron a wise and provident grant. Was it
wise, or provident, or constitutional, to expend 10,0001.
of the public money in that way without the consent of
the House ? If, indeed, it had been necessary to make the
outlay at a time when Parliament was not sitting, the
Minister ought to take the first opportunity of explaning
it to the House. But in that case no such thing had been
done, and the matter was now, for the first time, brought
before the House by him.—(Hear.)—With respect to
Cremin, the sum voted by Parliament was 74,0001—the
sum expended was 220,0001. He had before him a do-
cument-which contained an account of the sums voted by
that House for the public works at Weevil, and also of
the sums expended. In 1827 the sum voted was (we un-
derstood) 1,4301.--the sum expended was 2,592/.
In 1828 the sum voted nil, expended £14,035
IS‘29 nil. 53,000
1830 nil h5,000
—(Hear, and laughter.)— Now, it might be a very pru-
dent arrangement to remove those premises at all that cost,
but surely it ought not to have been done without the con-
sent of Parliament.—(Hear.)—In the form of accounts
which he had adopted, the Victualling Department was
separated from the Navy, and the half-pay was separated
from the superannuations. He bad prepared a balance-
sheet in such a manner, that in future the sum expended
in the past year, together with the sum estimated for the
current year, shall appear• at once Before he proceeded
farther, he was desirous of remarking upon one point in
the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet. He had said,
that the reduction of the Engineer and Master of the
Mills was imprudent, and that had he (Sir J. Graham)
himself visited the dock-yards, he would have been con-
vinced that it was imprudent. But the present estimates
had not been prepared in a closet, with no one present
but a second Lord of the Admiralty.—(Hear.)—lt bad
been prepared with the concurrence of the whole Board,

—(llear.)—He came now to what the Right Hon Baronet
would excuse him for calling (notwithstanding the eager-
ness with which it had been argued) his very feeble de-
fence. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that it was im-
possible to bring forward any estimate which should pre-
vent the necessity of applying the public money without
the consent of Parliament. He (Sir J. Graham) was
sure that it could be prevented, by not concealing the in-
tention of any necessary work, and by taking care to ask
for a sufficient sum. But the Right Hon. Baronet asked,
what should be done if any thing should occur in the
course of the year to render a new force- necessary,
or to call for an unexpected expenditure ? He (Sir
James Graham) was sure, that, under such circum-
stances, a constitutional Ministry would come down to
Parliament for a sufficient girt, if Parliament were
sitting at the time of the emergency. If not, it would
he base and cowardly of Ministers not to take the respon-
sibility upon themselves in the first instance, and after-
wards summon the Commons of Englan I as soon as
possible, and take them into their counsels.—(Hear, bear.)
They would obtain an indemnity if the Commons of Eng-
land approved of what had been done, or if they did not
obtain that approbation, they should retire from their
places. That lie considered tha constitutional course.—
(Hear, hear. )—He had now endeavoured to do his duty.
In doing so he might have said things unpleasant to in-
dividuals. But he collid not continue in his office without
rectifying what appeared to him to be wrong ;....nor could
he, in explaining those changes to the House, retrain from
stating the reasons which led to thein.—(Hear, hear.) Flo
was aware of the difficulties with which he had to con.
tend. He had given the Right Hon Baronet an advan-
tage. The estimate had not been prepared in the most
plausible manner. It did not profess to be excessively
clear and satisfactory. But he trusted that the House
would bear with it for this year, and call upon him to ex-
plain each particular as he pl:aceeded. In thc, next ye n•
the balance sheet should lie prepared in such a manner as
to exhildt every- sum expended in the present year clearly
accounted for. If he were to be dismissed from office to-
incrrow, lie would retire with the conviction that he had
appliod an tfiectual remedy to.a real grievance.-.(Hear.)
In conclusion, he called on the House to hear with tlie de-
fects of the present estimate, rind not to despair of the
good effects which it was calculated to produce.—(Hear.)
Mr. POULETT THOAISON said a doubt had been
expressed by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, that the
duties were performed by the Treasurer of the Navy.
There was certainly some part of them'performed by an
officer already in the establishment, for a small additional
emolument. In the estimate before the Conmittec,,twohun-
dred pounds a-year was proposed for thiit okier. Hereto-
fore the Paymaster of the Nivihad performed duties which
he (Mr. P. T.) contended ought to be discharged by the
Treasurer. When the Right Hon. Baronet opposite was
in that office lie did not complain that other duties pre-
vented
him from attending to the public service there. On
the contrary, he looked upon it, as it, had been considered
for years, as a sinecure; and a great part of the duties
were left to the Paymaster, in whom there was no respon-
ijoisy.
.When ho (Mr. Thomson) was on the other side
of the House, he contended that the office of Treasurer
ought to be united to another. He had pressed that upon
the late Administration; but they, with an anxious desire
to preserve Parliamentary p itronage—( Hear and laughter)
—they dismissed the Paymaster of the Navy, who was a
most efficient officer, and they retained the Treasurership
untouched.—(Hears hear. )—With regard to his own per-
formance of the business of the two offices which he had
undertaken, he could only say that he gave his best atten-
tion and desire to ii ; and he•was satisfied that any indivi-
dual could adequately diwhazge the duties of both, 'so as
to effect a saving of 2,000/. a-year to the public.—(Hear.)
311'. FRANKLAND LEWIS would avoid entering

Into the discussion of last year, and come at once to the
compatibility of the office, now filled by the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had last addressed the House. That
Gentleman had accepted the office of Treasurer of the
Navy, and with it another, which required a great part
of his time to be employed in the actual performance of
duties, and his entire thought and attention when be was
absent from it. It must necessarily interfere with the dis-
charge of the important duties of Treasurer of the Navy
He was sure that the sums of money disbursed on account
of the Navy ought not to be at the disposal of any man,
whose responsibility was not certain, who was not known
to the House, and standing up in his place from time to
time to account for the money with which he was en-
trusted. He would say, that should the House be unwise
enough to entrust the administration of large sums of
money through the hands of a person of inferior rank, great
public inconvenience might be the cons.quence.
Mr. HUME said, there was one subject to which he
intreated the House would give their most serious atten-
tion ; he meant the exposé which had that night been
given by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite—that by which
he laid before the House the system of deception and mysti-
fication hitherto prevailing in the mode of making up the
public accounts; and according to which, sums of money
were applied to purposes which Parliament had not autho-
rised, and works which they had appointed to be done
were not accomplished. It was a deception for which
there could be no palliation or excuse, and the disclosure
of it was an act for which the House ought to be extremely
thankful to the Right Hon. Gentleinan. As an objection
to the present e.titnates, it had been alleged that the wages
of labourers bad been included in the scientific department-
He would beg of the Hon. Members to cast their eyes over
the estimates, to look to any. one of those departments—to
the Naval College, the Observatory at the Cape, the
expence of chronometers, the rewards for discoveries,
the extra pay and allowances for his Majesty's ship
Chanticleer, gone upon a voyage of discovery—let
them look through every one of those, and they
would find, that in no case had the wages of labourers
been mixed up with the scientific expence; he, there-
fore, altogether denied that there was on that ground
the slightest reason to find fault with the manner in which
the estimates were made up. He admitted, indeed, that
there was one error, or rather imperfection, in the Victu-•
saline Department—the same thing was given in 28 and
29—that he acknowledged was a superfluity. Had it
come in at another place, the estimate would have been
complete. It wav, as he said, an imperfection, but the
accounts were substantially correct ; neither did that de-
fect create any complexity in the accounts. 603,0001.
was out of its place, but did not amount to any substantial
error, and all the other items were correctly given under
their respective heads; and the statement made upon it
by the Right Hon. Baronet was such as ought to give
perfect satisfaction, for the present at least; for he was
one of thme who always looked forward to improvement,
and he hoped that by next year a considerable improve-
ment would be made in the preparation of those accounts.
But though he went that length, he could by no means ap-
prove of the substance of those estimates ; that was, he
objected to their whole amount. Contenting himself, then,
with that general remark, he should reserve himself uporr
particular items till they came before the House in detail.
They had before them a balance sheet of 5,300,0001. of the
last year, and this year the item was 5,800,000/ , which
made a difference of one shelf million between the one year
and the other. New he need scarcely observe to the House,
that that was a sum of great importance; and he con-
fessed it disappointed him not a little, to find the Right
Hen. Baronet coming forward with a proposition to that
amount, instead of coming forward with a proposal for
reduction. This, however, calling for disapprobation,
detracted nothing from the great and important service he
had rendered to the public, in exposing the system of de-
ceit under which the public accounts were kept; and that
Right Hon. Baronet would not do his duty, if he did not
immediately institute such an inquiry as must put an end
io such practices fur the future. Such inquiry, too, should
be direced to discover where the practice originated, how
it had proceeded, and who were the real authors of that
most culpable deviation from the only course which the of-
ficers of the country ought to pursue. In all his experi-
ence lie had never known such a license taken as that of
applying public money to purposes which Parliament never
intended. During three successive years he had moved for
and obtained the report of the Commissioners of dock-

yards, and not one of: them afforded the slightest clew to
the abuse now, for the first time, laid open to the obser-
vation and animadversion of the House. He was perfectly
aware that occasional circumstances might arise, in which
Government would feel themselves imperatively called upon
to deviate from the strict rule which should form the gene-
ral guide of all Governments. But when circumstances
arose justifying such a departure, Government should
come dOwn to that House, acknowledge what they had
done, explain and, if possible, vindicate their conduct. He
must say, that after what had occurred, no more confidence
could be placed in public men. At the present moment it was
not in his power to determine very clearly, but by next Session
he should be in a situation to ascertain how far the ac-
counts- rendered were satisfactory, and in accordance with
the facts; let that, however, turn out as it might, . the
practice which had given occasion for these remarks was
one which ought to be swept away at once, and there was
not a single individual concerned who ought not to be in
capacited from ever again being engaged in the public ser-
vice ; and he had no hesitation in affirming, that if the
Navy Board had any share in those transactions, that not
one of them should ever again be trusted by the Govern-.
went, What did be complain of? Nothing less than one
of the grossest acts of misconduct that ever came to be
recorded in the whole financial history of Great Britain.
He had further to compiain of what had been done with
respect to the works at Portsmouth, of which there was
no estimate, and of which no account had been ren-
dered. It was true that a departmeut night suppose that
the materials of old works would prove sufficient is de-
key the expenses of new ; and where there were shown
good grounds for such a supposition, he did not much
complain of Government proceeding upon ir, and it was
one of those matters which could not be fully ascer-
tained till the work was complete. Government might,
perhaps, in some cases, find themselves justified in pro-
ceeding without, in the first instance, coming to Parlia
ment ; but the Administration ought not to lose a moment
in bringing the matter under the consideration of Parlia-
ment. With, however, such a system as that which he
x
had been describing going on for years, there was no e -
planation that could palliate it. As one installee among
many, where the practice he reprobated was carried to
no trifling extent, he would mention Woolwich, where
525,000/. was expended, though there was only the au-
o„ expending from year to year, witLotit any
thority of Parliament for 182,0001., and thus they bad
been going
inquiry.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM wee:understood to say, that in
the last twelve yeas's, 184 0001. was expended beyond
what Parliament granted.
Mr. HUME—The system of deception, he said, had
been going on for twelve years. In such a state of things,
mall might the Ministers have refused him a Con-;ni-t;;, of
Inquiry, for they knew
We that if ;riee put in his finger
h arrived e
be would not stop a ... at the bottom.—(A
laugh.) All past Governments stood condemned by the
disclosure made that night, and he doubted if there would
be found amongst them to steed up and defdefendneen
such practices, which, if they were for a moment tolerated
hi that House, there would be an end of all responsibi-
lity. The Hon. Member then proceeded to defend the
past which he took with respect to the sums granted by
Parliament for the improvement of the harbour of Leith,
and returning to the subject of the irregularity in the
mode of keeping the public accounts, observed `hat iia the
inquiries of the House tipac-, the sUbjej, they should go
hack to deviation, otherwise they could pro-
duce ,m'sufficient check against the mal-appropriation of
the public money. Much, however, as he had to condemn
the general amount of those estimeeee, he had stilt more
to complain of the sours ea-Tended in the purchase of-stores,
agaiest which he had alWeys raised his voice. Since the
war, no less. a. 911111 dem 25,0004 was expended in the rettild-
ing and *Toter, of shiPs, and that he: theoglii, after the
great imProYen:lenta
had hien made in steam navi-
gation, and '4ts probahte effects in the event of a ware it
was most unwise to expend such prodigious sums in
building ships upon the old construction, whin; week) built
and then laid by to ret, for they ;ever 'could be manned.
In four years„ fun ,
a=,l'adeed thousand pounds had been ex-
reeled in that way, and no one knew how it had gone ;
aid upon the whole period to which he referred, there was
a difference of 805,000/., of which r‘o zufficient account
hod been ei!en,
his really wanted words to do justice to
the criminatity of the deviation which be had in so many
fmns pressed Olson the attention of the lDouse. He
wanted words to do justice to the. :lrolignation which he felt
at that total disreeraed of theie oaths which had been mani-
festeii in this matter. It was a gross Offence against the
Appropriation Act, and against the votes of that House.
They then saw before, them one of the remarkable charac-
teristics or one of the great Boarthi of the country,...Boards
were the ruin of this country ; hut he trusted that what
had occurred "that night respecting one of them, would go
a great way towards ending the system. The matter that
was laid before them might' hereafter he subject for pro-
peedings in a Courtofl •previously brought under
Law, being roug
the notice of a Committee of that House to ascertain
the facts. No doubt, when they were ascertained, the
House might proceed b •
censure pr otherwise, as they

!'night think proper. If no other advantages were to be
derived from the accession of the Right Hon. Baronet to
rffice—advantages, however, which he expected would be
tumorous and long continued—there would be this, that
he had exposed the nefarious practices of which he hoped
•he House would mark its signal displeasure.—(Cheers. )
The House were deeply indeb'ed to the Right Hon. Baronet
for the_ candid, manly, and straightforward manntr in
which he had exposed and unmasked the detestable system
upon which the public accounts were kept in the depart-
ment in question. He concluded by saying that he had no
.pecific.amendment to move; but he must declare, before
he sat down, that nothing appeared to hint more absurd and
unnecessary than the expen'e which this country was every
year incurring for the purpose of creating a body of ships
greater than France or any State in Europe.
Sir BYAM MARTIN was of opinion that the sums
should I e voted, and that it should be left to the Executive
Government to apply them, as that was the only true way
of making them effective to the service.
Sir HENRY PARNELL complained that the gallant
Officer's notions of expenditure were totally contrary to
the principles upon which the House ought to vote away
the finances of the country. The naval expenditure of
France was voted so accurately in detail, that no person
could receive any thing without pointing to the precise
sum that had been voted for that purpose by the Cham-
ber. He thought that the grestest praise was due to Mr.
Thomson, who had reduced the system of naval accounts
to one of double entry. This country was going on un-
der a system of deception, so that when the House ap-
peared to be voting one thing, it was actually voting
another. He had felt considerable disappointment at the
amount of the naval estimates.—(Hear, hear.)—Consi-
dering what were the naval expenses of other countries,
he thought those of England to be extravagant, and that
the House was called upon to vote too large a sum.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN rose amidst much con-
fusion and cries of " B tr, bar," which rendered him for
some time inaudible. The tall ant Officer maintained that
it had always been the practice to consider that the gross
sum voted was applicable to all purposes indiscriminately
in detail, provided the total amount of the vote was not
exceeded. Unless a discretion were allowed to officers on
foreign stations, it would be exceedingly difficult to keep
accounts. The accounts of the station of St. Helena,
which had been alluded to in the course of the evening,
were not of a nature to require the interference of that
House. He thought the Right Hon. Baronet quite right
in keeping up the effective force of the navy.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed, that Ministers were
placed in a difficult situation, being obliged to bring for-
ward heavy estimates at the same time that they entered
upon office under strong pledges of economy. He was sa-
tisfied, however, that circumstances had justified his Ma-
jesty's Government in the course they were adopting, and
he trusted that the majority which had the other night
supported the army estimates would also sanction those
now before the Committee, it being equally necessary to
keep our naval and military establishments on an effective
footing.
Mr. HUNT thought it his duty to say a few words,
when he found it proposed to take five millions and a half
out of the pockets of the people on account of the navy
alone. Such an immense expenditure could hardly hecre-
ated without a vast deal of neglect, or it might he worse.
A large suns was annually voted for timber for the Royal
navy, and he had been credibly informed that no contracts
were entered into for the supply of that article—that there
were no public biddings as with respect to other matters.
He wished to know how the thing was managed ? and
whether there were any contracts, public or private,
and how frequently these occurred? The Honourable
Gentleman proceeded to say he had heard at Portsmouth
that the Honourable Captain Grey was appointed to the
command of the .Acteon three months before the vessel
was launched—it was also said that this was one of the
last acts of the late Administration. He wished to know
whether the statement was true ? He then went on to
deprecate the increase that had taken place in the estimates,
and observed that he might be thought culpable for not
having taken the sense of the House when such extrava- '
gant sums were proposed to be voted away. His only
reason for abstaining from taking such a course consisted
in the plain fact, that Ministers had promised the country
an effective Reform in the representation, and he felt un-
willing to embarrass them by opposition. It was upon
this account that he feat tongue-tied upon the occasion—
(Laughter)—and was restrained from speaking in such
terms as they deserved of measures like the present. He
sincerely hoped Ministers would bring forward a plan of
efficient Reform, and if they did so, he told them they
would have the country with them, and need not fear the
threats of Members upon that side of the House. How-
ever, if his Majesty's Government thought they could
satisfy the country without conceding vote by ballot, they
were grieviously mistaken.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh !")
It might he " oh, oh," there, but in the country it would
be " wo, wo," if this concession were refused.
Mr. HUME wished for a better classification of the
32,000 men employed in the navy and marines, in ()refer
that the, number of officers and the various grades might
be easily distinguished, as in the army. He might as
we I, perhaps, give notice of his intention to-morrow to
ca I for a specification of suds details, When the proper
time arrived he should move a reduction of 7,0001., pro-
posed to be allowed to Generals of Matinee, such places
being sinecures.

Ar. LEADER complaiAd of the injustice done to Ice.
land in the,e estitnat, s.

Sir J. GRAHAM said his Hon. Friend, the Momber
for Middlesex, would find the information which he re-
quired in the specification of the pay of the navy. Hu
trusted his Hon. Friend would not divide the House on
the vote for Generals of Marines, when he considered how
slow was the promotion, and how few the rewards in that
Corps.

Sir B. MARTIN said, that public competition (which
existed with respect to all other articles supplied to the
navy) was only prevented in the case of timber, by the im-
practicability of carrying the principle into effect. The
Hon. and Gallant Member proceeded to mention the rea-
sons which prevented timber from being dealt with as other
commodities, but they did not reach the gallery. The last
supply of timber took place by private contrgcq :;bout three
months ago ; there had been no contract for about two
years preceding.

Mr:ITITAIE observe .1 that the men and money bad never
been voted together before. He did not at that moment
iwend to object to the vote for 32,000 men,ubut when the
resolution granting the money was proposed, he would take
tl,e opportunity of cbjectiug to the item which he had
m,-ntioned.

Sir J, GRAHAM said he found, on examination, that
his Hon. Friend's observation, with respect to the separa-
tion of the votes for numbers and pay, was correct, and
in compliance with former practice he should fast move a
resolution as to the number to be employed. The ques-
tion with respect to Generale.of Marines could come on
when the money vote was proposed.
Mr. 1-1y11.,M asked, whether Sir James Cockburn, who,
it wag understood, had received a command in the marines,
previously belonged to that coefs? Had not the gallant
individual been attached to the army ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said, it was the intention of Govern.
innnt to break up the e4tahlishrnent of the Paymaster of
Marines, and abolish the office altogether. The duties of
Paymaster oiMariws had hen partly military and in vart
civil. He inspected the corps and their clothing, this was
a military duty ; with regard to the eiY/1 duties, one of
which related to the contritAttQ Cove clots inn, (that would
go to the VictnalliN .;'qftee), and another being matter of
accoup; would he referred to the Navy Offi,..e. It was
proposed to in the the Treasurer of tb?. Navy, who was
paid as Vice-President of the Board of Trade, Paymaster
of the Marines, pro tv.;poY:e, but without any salary. Cer-
tainly Cockburn had never belonged to the marines,
Lut inasmuch as he had faithfully discharged the duties of
• Paym'aster of the Marime,ami as his office being abolishe ;
he must have received superannuation allowance if some
other dny kW not been provided, it was thought right to
make Sit J. Cockburn (whose efficiency cm,441 not be
doubted) Inspector-General of Marines, which capacity
fie would discharge the military lanctions of Paymaster,
his Majesty being talieaaeti to restore him to his militart
rank as ;MajorXeneral. By this arrangemprt a 'consi-
derable saving would be effected. In 7,i-,..king it he had
acted solely with reference to public service.
Sir G. COCKI3I:IRN,I-git it to the Right Hon. Taronet
to say whtl.:,?-; iris. (Sir J. Cockburn) hail ever applied to
Gaser-fiment on the subject of his. bother's appointment.
Sir J. GRAHAM saif,l .wtainly not.
Mr. lIU.NIF cil.served, that although be objected to the
office, he list! no objection to the ra;va. in. Ile did not care
any thing at all about tlei inari.—(Llughter.) If ti
office were apcersal,y, some marine officer should hay,
been rait'...l to it. If Sir J. Cockbutu seas one of tlo
32,000, he should move, that instead of 3;2,000 men ti
serve in his M aiesfy's rk,et, the nuniher• he reduced t,
31,999, i,neluding (not 10,000, but) 9,999 marines—
(Laughter)-.-with a view to. mark his d',,vatisfaction at thi-
attempt to create a new °M e... Mr. lAurne having formall
made his motion,

Sir A. RANT (the Chairmm) asked whether the
Hon. Member would divide the House upon it ?
Mr. HUME replied " Certainly."
The gallery was about to be cleared, when
Lord HOTHAM rose, and slid the appointment io
question appeared to him to convey an unjust and 111211 .ees.
nary stigma upau the travince. it was on public groundr

he objected to the measure. The mar:ne. were :t ps
which could not be too highly esteemed.
Lord ALTHORP said that the appaintmcnt haf Nen
anide With a view to economy, in order to save the su-
perannuation. It was not, in fact, a new appoint nt nt,
but a substitution of one office for another. If the Hon.
Member (Mr. Hume) chose to have the superannuation,—
though he (Lord AlthOrp) should be surpri:. d at it, —and
the House chose it, they must submit.
Mr. HUME said he would agree to the superannuation
till the gallant officer was employed, in order to remove
what was considered as a stigma upon the corks.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS objected to thetransnintrtion which
was proposed by the Government.
_ _

Colonel DAVIES was of opinion that the proposed
alteration ‘could not be economical.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM briefly defended the alteration
proposed by the Government. There were two officers
between whom a choice was to be made • one of them was
71 or 75 years of age, and he though it much better to
superannuate the old man than the young one. He denied
that any stigma was cast upon the marines by the pto-
veeding which Government had proposed.
After a few observations from Sir George Cockburn,
Lord Hotham, Colonel Sibthorpe, and Mr. H. G.,rdon,
the gallery was cleared for a division.

No division, however, we understand, took place, and
the proposition was agreed to, Mr. !lints giving notice
that he would at a future stage of the business move for
the reduction of 1,0001., which he understo•id was the
sum that the proposed alteration would cost the country.
The House resumed.—Report on Monday.
The 12,000,0001. Exchzqurr Bills Bill was read a third:
time and passed.

.
Mr. BLOUNT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to re-
lieve Roman Catholics from the double assessment oC
I intl-tax.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, aria
the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.

STIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS-

There are various rumours in rirettlation, stgd
(minions formed, as to the stability -of Ministers.- It
is difficult to touch upon a subject, whilst new rests
are starting up every hour which -essentiallY alter- its,
aspect; but we see no reason why the Ministry, as:
a Ministry, should not stand. There is not ling bust;
the Reform Bill which need overthrow it : and wrist
know that its overthrow, if it were for no other catSA.
than that it would suspend and put to hazard Lord!
Brougham'shf'e Theseus,
u great measure of Chancey Relbtr,,
would
rt
infinite national calamity. But dubs-hip,
o at Athens, was changed piece by piege,
made wholly new,and still the identity of the vessel
trldlestimbersbee ans'
were remarked to be unsound, till ftas
was preserved : so a partial change might be began by
the removal of some members from the present Admi—
nistration, and the whole, as a ‘vhole, would gather!
strength. Lord Grey knows—he must know—whae
the public opinion is with respect to the number ral: '
his connections associated with hint in place, and he-
ought to respect that opittion, or it will be too strorg'
for him. Ills Lordship cannot be so sordid as to,
wish to concencrate a ma‘s of public wealth in h'est
own famly ; but what might have been inadv
tence at first, will assume a different characttr if p,r,,
tenoan country
redeeming Le l- d Acplitahl rtit.Pe qualities titan-
'tt, c'ihralyg,loomotpht:l the severed in after it is exposed, and the disgust v ihith
it occasions stated. These is one person, in pnri
cular, utthwourably known in the city for lA, con.
flexion with the celebrated Greek Loan. per
son should have shrunk front public life rettogether;
in
r"zmoval
but particularly he, should not have been placed
parts are
a situation connected with the revenuertilsehoalfiath:e.D
of the taxes on coals and candles, the
lota:them:
gret it should not have been tn',,re
penetration or sagacity. Beyond
palatab'e.
But it will be observed that ;:,
obscurity, Crotchett and
obvious and simple ; the), 'sprina
and not from the head.
Bniislltryw,oaunldd
gainedtheseaniol particular penetration
Poulett Thomson. tfur people are to emigrate,
rlwlehroemtshoerstewcohtadid,geesmmigaidaete,
tfhroemut
and tobacco to immigrate : we would Poulett
some better man immigrate into his place. Still,
oernitli
be the touchstone of the Ministry. Had there
been no Reform Bill in agitation, the changes pro-
posed might save the Ministry, Even with the
changes, were there time to bring them about, the
Reform Bill may ovorthrow it. We have heard
that the great mass of opposition mean now to
meet Lord John Russell's Bill by some Reform
plan of a less extensive kind,—some minor or par-
tial Reform. If so, they can hardly have the Duke
of Wellington with them. His Grace is not very
well able to make himself intelligible, when he at-
tempts to manage an argument, or to bind togetht r
a train of resiaoning; but nothing can be clearer or
more decisive than his declaration that he was an
enemy to all Reform: he cannot be mistaken in a
simple assertion. We contemplate with fear the
future state of the country if the people's just ex.
pectation of a Reform in Parliament be disappoin-
ted. We fear we shall have to describe something
more than the dissolution of a Ministry.—Times.
The States which have succeeded in revolutionis-
ing themselves in Italy contain a population of
nearly two millions. But, extending as they, do,
one side to the very frontiers of the Austria!) pos-
sessions, they cut off the rest of Italy from Aus-
trian interfeacnee ; and thus a free course is left to
the people of the- various States to give effect to
their wishes. It is said in some of the afar s
journals that Austria has announced a de.
termination to put down the revolution in Italy.
If there be any foundation for such a report, we
must view it as the signal for war. It may be very
true that a rigid adherence to the principle of non-
intervention till the whole of the rest of Italy
should be revolutionised, might render the posses-
sion of Lombardy exceedingly precarious. But,
because the people of Lombardy are impatient of
the Austrian yoke, ought the rest of Italy to be
condemned for ever to languish under Governments
they detest P However, be this as it may, the
principle of non-intervention having been made the
order of the day, the Austrians, in such a case,
would be, of course, the aggressors in an European
warfare. There is one statesman, at all events, who,
however much he might approve of the invasion of
Naples by Austria, would now condemn an invasion
by the same power of the neighbouring States—we
mean Sir Robert Peel. On Friday week, before
the Italian revolution was heard of, mid when ap-
prehensions were entertained of French ambition
(but that circutuskance would, of course, have no
influence on Sir Robert's opinion), he predicted ruin
and discomfiture to those States which should be
the aggressors in an European war. He said—
" Ile had such confidence in the progress of know-
ledge—such, confidence in the force of justice throughout
the world, that he was persuaded that whatever country
provoked an unjust war against the wishes of Europe,
bringing on it that toast terrible of all inflictions the human
race could suffaa, war without a just cause : he had such
confiderwa'in the force of public opinion, and the sense of
justae, that let the financial resources of that country be
what they might—let her military means 1E! ever so great—
the might and valour of her soldiers ever so noble, he was
sure that she must ultimately fall a aietiinao the force of
public opinion, which he was sure would hell all internal
dissension., and rallying the whole of Europe around one
object, vindicate the great cause of peace and jnstice,—
(Cheers.) He said this with perfect confidence. If France,
when she vindicated her own rights when she revolted against
the unjust proceedings of her late Monarch ; if France had
then been assailed by the Powers of Europe in a confederance
to prevent France front choosing her own Government,
he was confident that the Powers of Eurare would have
been unable to eontroul her actioos, au l he was confident
that their unjust cause must ultimately have
failed
• (Cheers)—and that she would successfully have vindi-
cated her right to choose her Government, against the „rabaled Iloweas of Europe,--(Hear, hear.) Their
effiars would have failed aga'est France, and would Lave
recoiled against thamselves in the madness of sue!, a struggle.—(Cheers.) But he was equally confident, that
if unjust atni4tion should tempt France by force to en-
large the limits of her empire—.if she should be urged tat
by the recollection of taw victories of .Noilaleon—if a mili-
tary faction should prevail over the good sense of the
country,. he was as confident, than, that Europe, i,tlttd
tt. jest cause, would resist France successfully, that a.
different result would teach France. that it was nut for her

interest to provoke war.—(Hear, bear.")
Now, if it would be unjust in the Powe.-i of Europe
to preYent France from chonsing her o ~n C ovum-