The Sun.
London, England, 1807-07-08 00:00:00

luments, and wharixtrf not;• Ili his (Onion it
was much better that Gover.pinent should expend fif-
ty, aye, 0. buttittvdanck tifiy“)4lj* of morxey.annu-
.in the general, sery4 saNie,cuuniry, than dint
they should exw0d.,59,096).'i,n the 'Efouse of Cum-
THOLIC, obje4:,,ied to ank alteration in the NobleLord'i. Notion, If t be,result of the prodndion, of the
List for which the Noble Lord thoved shOuld be,
. to astonish those who
.were not disposed to,' think'
very favourably of tae House of.cf,,,,,intnons, it would
be most fortu:i4e.; but, if, on the contrary, it,
should be found that there were an ibert.;dible ntun-
ber of Members who, either direaly or indiredly,
derived advantages trom sources not. the most pure,
that was a fad which ought to be knOwn to the
people. At any rate lot not. the question.be blinked.
• Mr. HusKts4ow, adverting to .some Observations
made in an early stage of the. debate, wished to set,
himself_ right wjth,the House. While now in place,
be did not enjoy the pensitin which had been grant-
ed to hiM on his formerly quitting office.
.Mr! CURWEN had never meant to insinuate such
a thing.
Mr. CALCRAFT conceived the Noble Lord's mode
of Obtaining information on the subject a preferable
one, and gave it his decided support.
Itosa declared, thatwhatever extent of re-
ward be bad received as a public servant was known
to
come
country. Nothing new on that subject could
come out. Ile was anxious that the' inquiry should
be a Complete one.
'he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed
xis an amentiment—" That a Committee should be
appointed to investigate the subject, and : that .it
should be an instruction to the Committee to exa:-

mine into all Places, Pensions, &c. in the words of
• th‘ original motion, except into Commissions and
Avointinents in the Army and NaVy, and into
in the Revenue; not exceeding 2001., a year
" QC.
46/4 COCHRAN: replied shortly to.the
argri-
ments that had been urged: HiS motive was not
...the expectation of great national saving, but because
a gen,ral feeling existed in the Country of the cor-
ruption rf the House of ComMonS. As to-Coonnis-
sioiis in tile Army and Navy, be knew that the latter.
had b. en given for votes in that House ; and it hiti
been idund uy soine;that the best way 16 ootathpre...:
"cement was, to buy a house or two lo a Contested
lAOrough : tor Ins .part, he was aCtuated'only.by a
„stneert; 4.kisire to serve his country. 'adhered to
ipiiiVotiOn,, because, although he deprecated ,udders
changes; he' th;;ugbt some of the Members of the
j-I,prtkiemight eel. shame at seeing their names
Al9il to the ptiblic ,conneaed. with corruption.
ter a liSt of the, p.',.risione.rs,of the House of. Com-
monO ad been.presented, a list tit the pensionerS Of
ejongctoin miglu be prepared; which
be. a. Kiitior:ofgroat .
Mr. WHITBR EAD - dvilieirttd, that as the Noble.
.wish to depart from his original'Mo..
.t.lifin,Lhe.woold certainly:support him.
• •.The SECRETARY in WAtt, and Mr. N. CALVIIIIIT,
• each . said a few words; ,theforinerstating,v
`had no objection to the I.‘flotion in general, the-latter
deprecatinglany reference of the sublet rro the Cora-
- mittee- 'inan'e.
I,kord, HENRY, PETTY . expressed :great satis.
ladion to .iind, that whatever-difference of opinion
existed in House with rcgard..toforto,. there was
but 0:10, opinion as to the propriety of giving inforina-
yiltti public upan'amibjed of such vital 'im-
..portance. This general concurrence of sentiment.
r.vrotsild make a most favourable impression upon the
, ?public IninO. •He obje.etcd to referring: the matter
stn the `Committee of limance,,and voted for:the 'mi.
ginal Motion, because it: :was one 91thoitt topics for
•. Which. the..Cdatamitteei!olfinanee was instituted,

and there was therefore no. necessity. for a particular
-Hteterence., . not conceive on what ground
• .the Right iio t. Gentleman proposed an: alteration
in the Noble Lord's motion, or wished .that ,to. be
generaLwiiieli the Noble I.4ird was desirous should
be particular ;. and. argued very strenuously. against
the. doctrine which that 'night had been laid clown,
that as the Ciown had the privilege of granting:pen-
011fiii*C. to a certain Oxtent, ParliAneut. did not
TOSSktaii,tho power of inquiring! into the Matinee in
• which that privilege, was exercised.
•Mi, Seerotary .C.diY NINO. observed, that the
Noule Loid had at first objected refer. this matter
'to the Finance Committee,' because lit would inter-
fere whit their other inquiries, though- the Noble
Lord had himself sliewn, tug this inquiry Wag con-
formable to the duties of that Committee, by stating,
• that they:could already. calltor all such information,
aceorditig to their own views upon the subject. The
HOUK:, by referring this matter to the Committee,
would not iuterfere with its functions, because .the
Committee would only .have to...issue their.pr-ecepts
for the Returns to the.,punlie.,.uffiees, and to. .lay
. these Returns before the tiouSe objected tp
that part of 'the Noble Lord's-• ;statement which
. atserted, that Officers in 'the Army and Navy
.acquired promotion' by their Seats iu that House.
.charge .appeared to him to have been made
....lightly, and the.best‘refu ta-on, of it wOllld be. to re-
fer the Noble Lord to a comparison between, the
Naval Officerti who. bad - Seats , that House, and
,those who had gloriously earned :their Seats in the
other House, and :he was sufe the Neble• Lord
would then .be convinced that there was ne reason
to complain upon this head. •
Lord: COCHRANE explained, and Sir 'WILLIAM
PARNELL said a few words on tho:propriety of
ferring the matter to the Finance.,,Goinnatee.;, The
Gallery. was then cleared for a:Divisiun,... whilst Mr.
.Idattso was on his legs. • •
For the original Motion • - .!•Gt
Against it •.- - 90
.• When re-admittedinto the Gallery, we found the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on his legs, pto-
,
'Posing two Motions,, which he had statedhisinten-
' tion 'to make, in case the original Motion-was
gativt d..- • •• '
Mr. WICHOLSON CALVERT objeBed to thia•Mcp.:
fien, the purport of which he did Obt precisely
derstand, and consequently could'not
it might interfere with the preseta.-thatiei of :Cie
Committee.
Lord COCHRANE moved, as an Amendment,- ,the'.
Motion which' he 'had proposed, .with
vt;.ceptioti of the words; it that fa Cotniiiittee'bki ap-,
i..-sptiinted;" for whiEh he 'substituted" 'that; it Lc au
• to ruction to the Committee of! Finance to• report,
•

'c4 HENRY I:3Ell'Y supported the 4.l.pcstlchlielit,

Gentletrian obliged the Obhicnittee to do tliat.wlikh
by'tlie order under which they had-keen cbnitlfiited;
,
they were bound to do.
Mr. VVSE wished .to know whether-the Noble
Lord'had meant any reflection, by his'Motion,:upon
Officers of the Airily :and Navy who had seats in
that douse: ''' • '
--The SPItAXER- informed-the Hon. Member, that
no Hon. Gentlemao.could have:anrsueit object, in
any observatithis"he kia6 in that !Anse.
Mr. "Wbr s.mr.rn • thought that ,thc,ol3.ic(tthey.had
•
in viow.would be better attained Order.ol
House for the Returns called for at any rate, he
thought that the "Committee' should be direded to
report fortir.vith: o

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
preSsed,Some surpiise,iit the change, chat; had taken
place on the opposite.side of the House. He had
adopted a suggestion made by an Hon. Gentleman
opposite ; which that Hon. Gentleman was then ready
to oppose. It had 'been obje6ted to his Motion; that'
it would interfere with the present duties 'of the Fi-
nance Committee ; but if the, Noble Lord's state•
ment was .cOrrE6f, that it would only authorize that
Committeeto do what at present theTwere bound to
do,. it could not be liable to that objection, The
Committee.wonld only be bound to make report of
the Returns that should be made' to-their precepts,
'Without giving any `Opinion thereon. In -voting for
his Motion,-the Hduse would', only ,belollowing up
the vote that *Thad already given.. „
_.
mr. WHITBREAD did not concur in the Mo-
tiou of the Right Hon. Gentleman, though he had
suggested to the NobleSord, 'not to that Right Hon. ,
Gentleman, that it-would be.better to refer the mut-
ter to the Fmance Committee. He had certainly re-
cemmended to the Noble- Lord' M. move an Amend-
mettit, for distinguishing those•who were Members
of Parliament in the list of persons holdipg sinecure
Places .and Pensions:He thought, that some Return
should be made.during ' the present Session'.
Mr. BA NK ES wished his Rightlion. Friehd to
defer his motion for referring the matter to, the Fi-
nance Committee for the present. The objet; of the
Noble Lord's motion was desirable, if it could be at-
tabled in a leSs exceptionable way. He thought that '
the Returns ought rather to be laid before the House,
because it, was desirable that the Committee should
not be brought into discredit with the public. The
Committee, however, if the matter Avereitferred
to it; would :do its duty, though he must 'observe
:that they had already issued precepts for Returns re-
lating to Pensions, dad the most voluminous paper
' had not yet been produced Vithem. It was impossible
'that the Returns could 'be,made •• by the Committee .
..this Sei,6on. On these grounds, hehoped the Right
Hoe. Gentleman would not press his Motion at
present.
Mr.:CuitweN supported the Amendment.
Mr.SHENDANthought the Motion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman a plain downright paltry pretence
to get rid of the motion of the Noble Lord.' The:
' Noble Lord called for a list of all MemberS who held
eertioluments tinder :the Crown, but the Right Hon.
Gemlertiiin went farther, aed otfered an account of
all eeesd,ne who held offices or einoluments under the
CroWn ' Every person' must see tliat this 'Was to over-
lay,. t o sutioCatennd stifle the original Motion..if 100
- Metubers had offices or pensions from the. Crown, the
list proposed by the Right 11:)n. Gentleman mii;lit
consist o to,000;so that the former; whiCh they de-
aired •to have, would be•lost in the latteri-Which it
,was proposed:to give. They wdineil that the people
should 'illow .how veiny of their Rt.-presentatives held.
offii.:es, by which they might be supposed to be ih-
I-Welk:ed. ' ,' ' '
Mr. Binnueru, .Dr. LAWRENCE, Mr. 141.sezte,
and. Nirec'eePto7., 9pposed :the Motion, of 'the
Right tfon.."Gentleman, and argued in faVoui of the
Amentittiont Of'the NOble Lord, which was, on the
contrary, opposed by Mr.-Wleacaeoiter., theSoei-
Cerolt-GESTERAL fur. Scotland, Mr. ROSE, Lord
I-littstieett,,,and Mr. Hoeroeo, who, supported the
Motion of the Chancellor' of the Exchequer. A di-
visi&i-t:::ee fo pface; when the numbers were :•
VoeiheNotien 4: the Chancellor of . ..
the Exchequer - - - . - - 161 • ,
ror the Anienditient• -. '''- -' - 00
- -. •, r Majority -.-; • —lot
The tiouse wont into a: Committee, on the never-
.
,ton Bill, when. . .
Lord II: PETTY gave notice; that on the Report
he should move to leave :cut the clause whicfrex-
. meted: trofesiorships in the-Universities of Scot-
land from. :being subjea to. the prohibition against
the grant of Places in Reversjim.
The Hoose tlie'n resumed; and •the Repot t was
ordeted to be receivedito-mdrow. ' :•
. NoTicEs....
Mr. STUR.QES BOURNE gave notice that he shOuld
to-Morrow nicive that there belaidhefore the House
' an Account of the' number 'of Pensions granted in
certain years, :of the. New Offices created, and :the'
Persons to whew they were granted or given.' •
Mr. MARTIN gave notice - that on 'Thursday' be
shonld move that there be bid before the Hoese'an
;.:Account of all' Sums. that had been paid bywak'of
.Pen4ioo eir Salary, otherwise titan from the Magill,
and or the persons by whoM propoked, mid to whom
' paid,'frimn the year (as We 'understand) 1803. '
~ Th6-AmeriCan Treaty ltidemoity Bill. was read a
.s."iic*eind time, and :ordered to . be committed to-mor-
row,' on an understanding thin the opposition to it
' should be made 'on 'the Minion for the Speaker's,
leaving the Chair,- i• . ' • . , ,
-12 he other, Qtders of the Day were then. disposed
of.-e-Adjourried at Twelve o'Clock... .