The Sun.
London, England, 1838-07-24 00:00:00

for purposes of general education, without disuoc,ion 1 reh
pious persuasion, was a very fair one—as one that was most

likely to effect a successful compromise between the preten-
siuns of the different parties in Ireland.—( Hear.) That pro-
position, however, that means of compromise, af er ere • d s-
cussion, had been repeatedly rejected ; and moreover had been
repudiated by one party as riot giving anything like a fair
settlement of the Catholic claims in Ireland, and by the other
as tending wholly to the destruction of the Protestant Esta-
blishment in that country. That beim, the case, and looking
to the present condition of Ireland, he hoped that, by the pro-
position now submitted to the House, the Church would be
rendered more secure by having its revenues immediately de-
rived from the owners of the soil, of whom the great majority
were Protestants ; and that the people would be relieved from
the present vexatious mode of collection. It was impossible,
however, not to see that there would still remain this great
distinction between the Church Establishment in Ireland and
that of every other country—that it did not alone provide for
the moral and religious instruction of the great body of the
people.—( Hear.) It was impossible to hear any Bishop or
Clergyman of the Church of England, either in the pulpit
or in a political assembly, defend the Establishment of the
Church of England without hearing him at the same time
dilate on the great advantages derived by the great body of
the poorer classes in England from the presence of that Esta-
blishment in this country.—( Hear, hear.) It was that of
which our ecclesiastical Establishment was justly proud, and
it was that which made him, along with all who belonged to
the lay body, so firmly convinced that the English Church was
worthy the support of the people of England.—( Hear, hear.)
But that was not the case in Ireland-4 Hear, hear)—and it
was impossible not to see that as the numbers and strength of
the Roman Catholics in that country increased, the contrast
would always be used as a reason for seeking a change in the
ecclesiastical condition of the country.—( Hear.) What that
change would be must depend on the various views which
would be entertained by different persons holding different
political and religious opinions. Those who advocated the
voluntary principle would say, and naturally say, " Let there
be no • Church Establishment in Ireland ; it is indefensible
everywhere, but in Ireland peculiarly so." From that principle
he need not say be entirely dissented, approving as he did of a
Church Establishment in England ; and even that of Ireland,
notwithstanding the anomalies it presented, he considered as
not only guaranteed by the most solemn laws, but as having a
very great influence on the connection between the countries.
—( Hear, hear.) But, while he was for maintaining the
Church of Ireland and the principle of a Church Establish-
ment, he could not but think that one day or other, and that
before many years, Parliament would, if it did not fall into
what he called the lamentable error of the voluntary prin-
ciple, be obliged to revert to the resolution which had
once been introduced into that House, and which provided
that the Roman Catholic people of Ireland should have
their religious instruction provided for by the State. The
proposition he meant was that introduced by Lord Francis
Egerton, in which provision was made for the Roman Catho-
lic Clergy of Ireland. He felt convinced if such a proposi-
tion were made now, the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland,
and the great body of the laity of that country, would at once
reject it ; that, in the next place, the members of the Scotch
Church would be vehemently opposed to it; that the Pro-
testant Dissenters in this country would be violently against
it; and that even in this country a very considerable propor-
tion of the members of the Established Church would be
found in opposition to such a provision. Seeing, there-
fore, that this was his opinion—an opinion which perhaps it
was not prudent for a Minister of the Crown to deliver—he
thought that, seeing the question had been mooted by his
Noble Friend near him, and by the Right Hon. Baronet, it
was a proper time for him to say what he thought would be
the ultimate state of things in Ireland if the present plan for
the settlement of the Establishment were adopted. It was his
opinion that, if the Irish Church retained a moderate measure,
sufficient for the spiritual wants of its followers, that it would
and could be maintained ; but he believed, on the other hand,
that the time would come when the spiritual instructions of
several millions of people, the great majority, in fact, of the
people of Ireland, would require to be paid and maintained by
the State.—( Hear, hear.) He gave his opinion now, al-
though, perhaps, one not strictly relevant to the present
purpose, because, if he had kept entirely silent, it might be
supposed that he was entirely opposed to the views of the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, or that he entirely concurred in the
opinions which had been expressed by his Noble Friend near
him. Neither of these things really was the case.—( Hear.)
He begged, however, not to be misunderstood, when he talked
of the support of the Roman Catholic Clergy; he thought that
the great body of the Presbyterians should likewise receive
that proper support from the State to which their great services
in the cause of religion and morality entitled them. He begged
pardon of the House for introducing this opinion, and would
merely say, in conclusion, that it was his intention to oppose
the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, being of opinion
that the clause as it stood was the one best adapted for im-
proving the condition of lreland.—( Hear. )
Lord HOWICK said that the Right Hon. Baronet had ex-
pressed his great regret that in the position which he ( Lord
Howick) had the honour to hold, he should express opinions
which the Right Hon. Baronet considered would have a ten-
dency to perpetuate and increase the attacks on the Estab-
lished Church in Ireland. He (Lord Howick) knew well,
from long experience, that when any Member of that House
gave expression to views which were in unison with those of a
portion of the community which had grievances to complain
of, such Hon. Member was invariably charged with exciting
and fomenting the discontents which he proposed to appease
by conciliation.—(Hear, hear.) It was his firm con-
viction that if grievances really existed, if they were really
felt by any considerable portion of the community, there
would be no want of modes of expression, no necessity for
any Member of that House to give his opinion for the pur-
pose of creating disaffection ; but on the other hand, if there
were no substantial grievances, he believed that the most in-
flammatory harangue ever uttered by Minister or Member of
Parliament would pass by as unheeded as the idle wind.—
( Hear, hear.) This being his firm conviction he did not be-
lieve that any injurious result could arise from what he stated
the other evening. He was convinced that in the nature of
things the question to which he then referred, was one which
at some time or other must come under consideration in that
House; but if he then wanted any proof of the necessity in
the present posture of affairs of stating that opinion which
he had long entertained—which he had entertained from the
first moment he seriously considered public affairs, that proof
was now afforded by the Right Hon. Baronet himself.
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet now brought for-
ward as a charge against those who had supported Catholic
emancipation, that at the time of its discussion they gave no
intimation that any discussion relating to the Protestant
Church would at a future time arise. It might be said that
by silence one might avoid committing himself to any
opinion, but it now appeared that this was not the case, be-
cause he (Lord Howick)having,had the honour of a seat in
that House for three years before the passing of Emancipa-
tion, was for his silence on that occasion charged with dis-
guising his opinions. With respect to that charge he could
only say that although being then only a new Member of the
House, yet so strong was his conviction that the question must
some time or other come forward, that he was most anxious
before Emancipa.ion to declare his opinion ; but he bowed to
the opinions of older Members, and he now regretted thst he
did so. He was convinced that it would have made no diffe-
rence in the carrying of the question, and he always thought
that the best policy was to state clearly and frankly to the
House and the country what his real opinions were.—( Hear,
hear.) With respect to his re.narks of the other evening,
he felt that if he had allowed this Bill to go out of that
House without stating the opinion he entertained as to the
temporary character of the measure now passing—if he
had taken that course, he should hereafter, when the sub-
ject was again brought forward, be placed in this position,
that either he must expose himself to the reproaches which
the Right Hon. Baronet had applied to the advocates of
Emancipation—that of disguising their ulterior objects—or he
must have taken a course contrary to what his view of what
was justice to the Irish people demanded. —( Hear, hear.)
This was his explanation of the grounds which had induced
him to come forward to express the opinions he entertained on
this question. He had little more to add, except that when
the Right Hon. Baronet stated his presumption that the legi
timate conclusion of the principles he (Lord Howick) advo-
cated would necessarily be a transfer of the property of the
Established Church to the Roman Catholics, he entirely
mistook what in his ( Lord Howick's) opinion was the legiti-
mate conclusion derivable.—(Hear, hear,) It was impossible
in his opinion, that the existingstate of things could continue.
—( Hear, hear.) It was impossible that the small minority of
Episcopal Protestants should retain long an immense Church
Establishment for their exclusive benefit.—( Hear, hear.)
The present was, in fact, a state of things in his opinion so op-
posed to the obvious dictates of natural justice that it could
not permanently continue. —( Hear, hear.) He did not hesi-
tate to say that he for one regretted that at an earlier period of
our history the great mistake was made of altering the charac-
ter of the Church Establishment before the religion of the
people was altered. That was a fatal mistake ; but he did not
think that that mistake would now be remedied by a transfer of
the property of the Protestant Church to the Roman Catgolics.
With the opinions just uttered by his Noble Friend respecting
the payment of the Catholic Clergy he perfectly concurred;
but he did believe that hereafter it would be found necessary
to pay, if not the Catholic Priests, at all events those lay
teachers who should be appointed to communicate moral and
religious instruction. He believed that ultimately that course
would be absolutely necessary.—( Hear, hear.) As he stated
on a former evening, the longer the inevitable struggle was
deferred the better, in his opinion, for both countries. He
believed that by such postponement the cause of justice would
have time to gain ground in both countries, and that many
who now took views differing from his would hereafter be
brought to another opinion. He should not now be led any
further into the subject; he felt that, in stating generally
what were the grounds on which he had adopted the conclu-
sions to which he had come he had done all that was necessary
to protect him hereafter from any charge cf double dealing.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Noble Lord had mistaken him
in supposing that it was to him (the Noble Lord) he al-
luded in his observations. At the time of the Emancipation
Act the Noble Lord was, he himself admitted, too young a
Member to have his opinion taken into account, and what he
( Sir R. Peel) alluded to was not the opinions of individual
Members, but the public declarations of the chosen champions
of the Roman Catholics—of the chief promoters of their
cause. He was speaking of Mr. Grattan, who in a Bill he
brought in for the arrangement of the Roman Catholic question,
included in the preamble the following expression :—" Where-
as the Protestant: religion is the established religion of the ,
State and is solemnly guaranteed as such by the Act of Settle:
ment and the Acct of Union, and whereas it would tend to the
stability of the State if the disabilities under which the Roman
Calliseli.ste labour were now removed." Here was no disguis. ,
ing of opinion; :ID one could be justified in accusing Mr.
' Grattan of an intention to diminish the securities of the Pro-