The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-19 00:00:00

EPSOM SPRING MEETING.

The entries for the Plates, &e., closed yesterday after-
noon, and it will be seen from the outline subjoined, that
the opening of the Metropolitan racing season to-morrow
(Friday), will be a brilliAnt one.
The Epsom Trial Stakes of 5 soya. each, with 50 added,
_ _

for threeirs:old,yst; four, 9st. One mile..

Sir B. PigotS Essedarius.- 3 yrs—Mr.' Drinkald's
Grief, 3 yrs—Mr. Drinkald's Thornhill, 3 yrs—Mr.
Cowley's Second Sight, 3 yrs—Count Batthyany's Eve,
3 yrs—Major Martin's Creiarian, 3 yrs—Mr. Dyson's
Christian; 3 yrs—Mr. A. Present's Clairvoyance, 4 yrs
—Sir G. Ileathcote's Black Eagle, 3 yrs—Mr. W.
Etwall's Ira, 3 yrs—and Mr. Nevin's Diana, 3 yrs.
The Two yrs old Stakes of 10 Sow*. each, with 25 added;

for colts, Bst 61b; and fillies, Bst 41b.

Mr. S. Douglas's b f by St. Francis out of Nob's data
—Sir G. licathcote's fby Astracan out of Lady Sarah
—Mr. Jackson's Career—Sir J. Hawley's Epoch—Mr.
Treen's Buckler—Major Martyn's e by Charles XII.
out of Best Bower's dam—Mr. J. Dixon's Kathleen—
Duke of Richmond's Officious—Mr. Gordon's The Wren
—Mr. Gratwicke's Sidesaddle—Mr. W. Sadler's Giraffe
—Mr. W. S. Stanley's a by Charles XII. out of Cowslip
—Mr. E. R. Clark's cby St. Francis out of Lightning—
Count Batthyany's Valentine—Mr. Magenis's fhe Secret
—Lord Clifden's Sicyon—Mr. Grafille's Brington—and
Mr. Greville's Bullfinch.

The Great Metropolitan Handicap of 25 SOTS. each, 15
ft, and 5 only if declared, with 500 added; tho second
to receive 100 Sovs. out of tho stake, and the third

50 Soy.. The winner of the Great Northamptonshire
Sakes to carry Mb extra, and the winner to pay 10
guineas to the Licensed Victuallers' School and 10
guim s to the Licensed Victuallers' Asylum. Great
Metropolitan Stakes Course.
st lb st lb
Cossack, 5 yrs
Surplice, 4 yrs
Inheritress, aged
Peep-o'-day Boy, syrs 8 7 Bellenden, 4 yrs
Eryx, 5 yrs
Executor, 5 yrs 8 3,llagley, 4 yrs
Canez )11, 4 yrs . ....... 8 1 Lady Bangtuil, 4 yrs 5 9
Limestone, 5 yrs ...... 8 0 Sir W. Ridiculus Mus,
Mogador, 5 yrs 8 0 6 yrs
Flatcatcher, 4 yrs 8 0' Bright Buck, 3 yrs ... 5 5
Tartar, 5 yrs. 7 12 f. by Muley Moloch,
Vampyre, 5 yrs
New Forest Deer, aged 7 9 dam, 4 yrs
Gwalior, aged
Pantomime, 5 yrs 7 5 Slashing Alice, 3 yrs 5 3
Giselle, 6 yrs 7 5 Loupgurou, 3 yrs ... 5 2
Ellerslie, 4 yrs 7 3 Pelham, 3 yrs
Mrs. Taft, 4 yrs
Roscius, aged .... .... 7 ie. by Cxsar, out of
gby Voltaire, 0 yrs... 7 01 Bastile, 3 yrs .. 5 0
Sylvan, 4 yrs 7 Op° the-Boys, 3 yrs... 5 0
Fogleman, 4 yrs
Sponge, 4 yrs
Backbiter, 4 yrs
Maid of Lyme, 6 yrs 6 11 e. by Emilius, out of
Do•it-again, 4 yrs
Dacia, 4 yrs
Valentina, 4 yrs 6 10 Miss Bunney, 3 yrs... 4 7
llelford, 5 yrs
Bacchanalian, 4 yrs
Fernhill, 4 yrs
Cockermouth, 4 yrs,... 6 k'i)oret Say Nay, 3 yrs 4 0
Pillage, 5 yrs 6 7:Burghley, 3 yrs
Conquest, 4 yrs
The Railway Stakes of 5 soya. each, with 25 added for
three yrs old, Est 31b; four, Bst 71b; five, 9st 21b; six
and aged, 9st 81b. Mares and geldings allowed 31b.
The winner to be sold for 250 sovs. if demanded, &c.
Heats, one mile.
Mr. Stevenson's Old English Gentlemen, 3 yrs—Mr.
Crofton's Hasteaway, 4 yrs—Mr. F. Parr's Lethargy,
5 yrs—Mr. Francis's Volley, 4 yrs—Mr. A. Present's
Clairvoyance, 4 yrs—Mr. Bartley 's Grist, 4 yrs—Sir G.
lleathcote's c by Velocipede, d by Emilius—Mr. Kirkby's
g by Carew, out of Allmeade, 4 yrs—and Mr. Etwall's
f by Emilius, out of Pelerine, 3 yrs.
The Surrey Hunt Stakes of 3 sovs. each, with 20 added;
three yrs old, 6st 91b; four, Bst 51b; five, Bst 131 b; six
and aged, 9st 31b. Mares and geldings allowed
31b.
Horses to be sold for 200 sovs. allowed 31b; for 150,
91b; for 100, 141 b; and for 80, 211 b, over and above
other allowances. Heats, half a mile.
Mr. W. Sadler's Master Murray, aged (801.)—Mr.
Hornsby's Bukhara, aged (800—Mr. Eusbruge's Merry
Andrew (late Miles's Boy), 5 yrs—Mr. Caffall's Bohe-
misrle, 5 yrs (801)—Mr. Drinkhard's Grief, 3 yrs—Mr.
Roll's The White Lady, 3 yrs (801.)—Mr. Price's Lysi-
!luaus, 3 yrs (1001)—Mr. Greville's Damson, 3 yrs
(801.)—Mr. C. Formby's m by Muley Moloch, out of
Gunman's dam, 4 yrs—Major Martin's Nectar, 4 yrs
(30/.)—Mr. Bateman's Blunderbuss, aged (100/.)—Mr.
Pimm's Bright Buck, 3 yrs (801.)—Mr. Forth's Mangler,
aged—Sir. G. Heathcote's f by Velocipede, out of Miss
Wilfred, 4 yrs (801.)—Mr. Drew 's Tamarind, 4 yrs
1 Fowler's c by Sir Isaac, out
000—Mr. W. Etwall's Acanthus, 4 yrs (1001.)
Match 100/. T. • •
sister to Antelope) Bst. h
Tuscan, „,..-ord, Lys, the AiLlo
of Gipsey Queen, Bst 31b, agst Mri.TQßd—roLomuea'ar f
Flat-
catcher, Mogador, __
agley, Bagatelle (sister to
Bellenden, New Forest Deer, Giselle,
Maid of Lyme, horses
it: have arr, g ,
RiTdihecuio:sll:uins:
Claim, vim

Girl, Lady Sarah, the Swede, Valentine, at.d several
other two year olds. • ,
The Trial Stakes will be run at half-past one o'clock,
the Two Year 01d Stakes at Two, the Metropolitan at
three precise', ; the two races in heats and the match
will follow.

The course is in admirable order, and great improve.
merits have been made since bet year by Mr. Doting.
The turn at Tattenham's Corner has been widened,
giving more space for the large fields expected; the
starting place: for the T. Y. C. has been much im-
proved, by levelling the ground,
.and covering the roadi
with tan and mould.

INTERVIEW OF IRISH MEMBERS

WITH LORI) JOHN RUSSELL.
An interview of the Irish Members with Lord John
Russell took place yesterdey in Downing-street, ac-
cording to the circular invitation which had been ad-
dressed to all the Irish Members by Lord John Rus-
sell, &c.

The following Members were present :—II. A. Her-
bert, Captain Jones, J. H. Moore, Sir E. M‘Naughten,
J. Follett, J. O'Connell, N. M. Power, Colonel Dunne,
Colonel Bruen, Sir J. Young, Viscount Castleresgh, Sit
W. Somerville, Sir E. Hayes, N. Ali minder, Sir Lucius
O'Brien, F. French, C. St. George, the Hon. J. P. Max-
well, R. Dillon Browne, the Marquis of Kildare, T.
Meagher, J. T. Devereaux, Lord J. Chichester, J. Sad
leir, R. Keating, J. Greene, R. M. Bellew, M. Sullivan,
Sir A. Armstrong, P. S. Butler, F. Scully, Viscount
Milton, W. H. Megan, A. O'Flaherty, Sir T. Burke,
Hon. H. A. Cole, Captain Archdall, C. P. Leslie, R. I.
Tennant, Mr. T. M'Cullagh, Sir D. Norreys, T. Bate-
son, R. S. Bourke, E. K. Tennison, W. Moosell, R. M.
Fox, Major Blackall, Right Hon. R. L. Shell, Colonel
Rawdon, Hon. T. V. Dawson, M. J. O'Connell, Sir R.
Howard, Hon. C. Lawless.
The object proposed by Lord J. Russell, in calling the
meeting was to obtain the sense of the Irish Members, or
their majority, upon the motion of which notice had been
given by Mr. Herbert, Member for the county of Kerry,
fur extending the property and income-tax to Ireland as
a substitute for the proposed rate in aid.
Mr. J. O'CoNNELL said—My Lord, before your Lord-
ship enters upon the business for which we have been
called together, there is one. matter which I must advert
to—which I feel to be of considerable importance. Al-
though I am most willing to come here as unindividual
Irish representative, your Lordship is well aware that I
am not here of my own motion. I appear here at your
Lordship's suggestion. Under these circumstances I
wish to know the position in which I stand. I have seen
in the Times newspaper a reference to the last interview
between the Irish Members and a Nobleman connected
with your Lordship's Government. I have seen an
official statement, or a statement purporting to be official,
purporting to be from authority, contradicting several
particulars which had appeared in a previous re-
port. Now as to the details -of what had
occurred at that deputation I will say nothing—
because, though I was one who signed the
memorial, I was not one of the deputation. It cer-
tainly, however, appears to be an extraordinary assump-
tion, to say the least of it, that a member of the Exe-
cutive should take upon himself to lecture members of
the Legislature—representatives of the people—in the
discharge of what they considered to be their public
duty. But, as I said, I shall say nothing upon that,
but I come to the official statement. It is stated that
Lord Clarendon intimated his intention to return an
answer to the deputation in writing. He made no such
intimation, nor was there any question raised as to his
doing so. But we have reason to believe that this is
not the first time that garbled reports of official inter.
views with Irish deputations have been furnished to
the newspapers, and we strongly recommend all official
persons, for their own protection, as well as for the
information of the public, never to undergo those or-
deals except in the presence of a short-hand writer.
I do not know, my Lord, in what way the Noble-
man
to whom I allude is justified in this,
which pur-
ports to be an official statement, in offering what
really is an insult to Members of the Legislature;
and what I have to ask of your Lordship is, do you
approve of such an imputation being cast upon us?
I should be sorry to think that your Lordship would ap-
ladsbmeavyery sorry to
have been
ap-
prove of it. I see that a short-hand writer
,is present.
I have no objection to his being present, because there
learn that your Lordship approves of that to which I
trnhaeyeabseemoni s a
have now adverted. I have brought this forward as a
s trae
ct eemn et no tcsc
sni bothon.
Is isdheos
u,
matter connected with personal feeling, and I ask your
Lordship, do you'approve of such an imputation being
thrown upon us?
Lord JOHN RussuLL—With regard to what Mr. O'Con-
nell has said, I cannot answer with any precison as to
what may have passed at an interview with another
member of the Government. I can only answer as re-
spects myself, with the experience I have had of deputa-
tions that I certainly thought it necessary in a late deputa-
tion, to ask a gentleman, a Member of Parliament, who
was present, to show me an account which he thought
could be given to a newspaper, that I might see it
was correct before it was sent to the newspaper.
He was good enough to do so, and his account was
very correct,
h I thought were of importance.
some particulars which
ho readily allowed
I requested him to insert them, which
except that there was an omission of
had been omitted, and the report was afterwards in-
serted in the newspapers. I must say, in regard to de-
putations, not Irish deputations especially, but deputa-
tions, English, Scotch, and Irish, that I think it is very
much•the habit of those who come to the Minister with
deputations, to make a report of the proceedings, in
which all the arguments which seem to them forcible, and
which occur to them to urge, are generally very well
represented; but the answer of the Minister is not in
general so fully given. I have known in the case of de-
putations from Birmingham, front Liverpool, and other
places, reports to be given of what passed, in which the
Minister is made either to say, or to appear to acknow-
ledge, that he is completely overwhelmed by the argil•
meaty, when certainly the
impression upon my mind has
been totally different. I have, therefore, thought, with
regard to usputations which are composed of any consi-
derable number, it is ndvisable to have a correct report
of the proceedings. With regard to that particular de-
putation which has been alluded to, I must decline alto-
gether to give any answer. I was not present at it, and
I cannot be required to give any explanation of it.
Mr. TENNENT—Since your Lordship has permitted
this subject to be mooted, I may
take theopportunity
saying one or two words. A charge of misrepresenta-
tion has been made in the case of the Irish deputation
which has been alluded to. On one occasion when I
newspapers,
af
o
had the honour of being a member of a deputation to
your Lordship, a report appeared inthe
day or two afterwards, which entirely misrepresented
both the speakers and that which they said. It repre-
sented the deputation as making use of language, which
I have no hesitation in saying was offensive, and was
entirely unfounded in fact. I then communicated with
every member of the deputation, and with every gentle-
man in the room,
except your Lordship and another
gentleman, and they entirely denied all knowledge of any
communication to the paper whatever.
Lord Joust RusseeL—ln that instance, I think I had
reason to complain of the report.
Mr. O'CONNELL—I have only to add that I expressly
guarded myself from entering into the subject of the
deputation itself. I am sorry your Lordship has not
expressed the opinion which I desired from you, but at
any rate I am glad you have not said that you agree in
the imputation which was specially cast upon Irishmen.
Lord JOHN Miss/ELL—With regard to what passed
at that deputation, I give no opinion one way or the
other.

Viscount CAsstLEßEAcii—With reference to what fell
from Mr. O'Connell, I believe people are now getting
pretty well aware of the one-sided nature of the reports
in the Times with respect to Irish matters.
Mr. O'FLAIIERTY--I will big
to add but one word. I
do not think it right to say any further as Lord Claren-
don is not present, than that I am ready at any time to
substantiate a great portion of what occurred at that
deputation. Auotber opportunity may occur perhaps of
doing so.
gentlemen pre-
object for which I have requested the
Ponrdinary step
sent to meet me to-day. It is an extraem
NE hers of all
Lord J. RUSSELL—I will now refer, therefore, to the
which I have taken thus to ask Irish
for an
parties to attend me here. I have to -r y
to them; but I
trouble for which I may
havegaitVea advantage
thought it might be of great
and to their constituents, that we should know as mem-
berswhat the views of the Irish
Members are.
You will recollect that in the early
part
of the session the Chancellor of tho Exchequer
of the Government
moved for a grant of 50,0004 to relieve distress in certain
parts of Ireland in which there was great suffering, and
in which there did not appear to be local means suffi-
cient for the relief of those districts. In doing so we
followed the course which had been taken in 1822, and
some subsequent years, and which had been
taken in 1846, 1847, and 1848. It was objected, and ob-
jected not solely by members of one party,
you,
Members
but objected
to whom
of the House of Commons of very different political par-
ties, that it was plain that the evil was inereasing—that it
Ib yd
o g e
notnt l e
wishme n t whose
to
refer n
a as sI
not eswbielilng occur
prese to n
t):
butu
was not an occasional relief which was sought, but that
it was a relief going on from year to year, to be paid out
of the Imperial Exchequer for Irish distress. They,
therefore, thought that there should be some explana-
tion given, or some course adopted, by which the
House of Commons should be enabled to ate what were
the prospects for the future, and some of them
expressed their hope that no further grants would be re-
quired. I was asked especially by a gentleman who is
the leader on the opposite side of the House, to state
that this was intended to be the last grant. I said I
certainly could not pledge myself that this should be the
last grunt proposed by the Government, because we
must act according to circumstances, and in any extra-
ordinary degree of distress which could not be otherwise
relieved, we would not preclude ourselves from asking
for a grant for that purpose. However, the opinion, I
think you will allow, in the House of Commons gene-
rally, was that there ought to be some course adopted
by which grants having been made for several
years, and the prospect being very uncertain as to the
sufficiency of local funds fur the next year and the year
after, there should be some contribution made from Ire-
land more than was made in the last year for the pur-
pose of the relief of Irish distress. Now there were
two ways by which this could be effected ; the oil° was,
putting on a special tax or a special rate on Ireland, for
the occasion, making it limited in point of time, limited
in point of amount, arid leaving the country at the end
of that time with the immediate want supplied, and
without at all raising a precedent that should be injuri-
ous for the future. On the other hand, it was said that
such a precedent would be moat injurious, that it would
t e a separation of Ireland, which was contrary to the
principles of the union; that the way in which the rate
was proposed to be raised would make it press more se-
verely upon one class of persons, and upon one kind of
property, than upon others; and that the better course
to cc:pokier whether there were any tut' which

• were paid in Great Britain, and were not paid in Ireland,
to which Ireland might be fairly called on to contribtt,te;
and. then in the contemplation of such taxes to make
such grants as were rc quired in peculiar exigencies,
whether thdy occurred in the west of Ireland, or whether
they occurred in the. Highlands of Scotland, or in any
other part of the United Kingdom, from the Imperial
Exchequer.' The proposal which the Government made
was founded upon the first of these two views; but upon
the proposition being made, an amendment was moved
by Major Bluckall that there should be a property-tax,
instead of that which was proposed. There was a very
considerable division. The amendment was supported
by a great number of Irish Members, who were in favour
explained
piem3aLr.
property
-rxtwaaagxam
.ar.
ns tt ht ahte wr
teat
nh eayi
dw.
of that view; while, at the same time, I think many
a
M
i Ia
ande dn
toot iinnf efra vwoaus;
—Might I interrupt your Lordship.
The question was, whether a rate in aid should be fixed
upon all descriptions of property above a certain amount.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I quite admit that it might be con-
sidered that it was not in favour of an income- tax ; but
in subsequent debates that view of the question has been
very much pressed. Several gentlemen have said that
they should be ready to support an income and property
tax, if it was thought advisable to extend it to Ireland,
to be imposed upon the same persons and to the same
extent as it is in England, though they should not be
willing to agree to the rate in aid. I may mention
another suggestion which has been thrown out—indeed,
I think a division was taken on it in the House of Com-
mons—namely, that there might be a tax which would
not be completely an income and property-tax, but
' which would require contributions to be made from
the funds and from the salaries of persons
holding official situations, and not req airing any
contributions from trades and professicas. Now,
I should say, with
,regard to that proposition,
that it has been always held, I believe, from the
first imposition of the income and property-tax by Mr.
Pitt in this country, and at all subsequent times, that
you can take nothing in the nature of a tax from the,
public funds without a breach of faith, and that, there-
fore, the only way in which you can reach the public
funds is by imposing a tax upon all kinds of income—
income derived from the public funds as well as other
sources. Therefore, whatever might be the expediency,
and whatever might be the reasons in favour of such a
tax as I have mentioned, it is one which I think no Mi-
nister could propose for Ireland, indeed not for any part
of the empire without immediately incurring on the part
of' the fundbolders an imputation of a breach of faith,
and such objections as would be impossible to over.
come. I therefore conclude that the alternative is
either a rate in aid of the nature we have proposed,
or some such proposition as I see notice has been
given of by Mr. Herbert, the Member for the
county of Kerry. When we propose a rate
in aid, he proposes to leave out all the words
after the words " distressed unions in Ireland," in
order to add the words, " And in consideration thereof,
that an income and property tax be assessed on incomes
and property in Ireland not liable to income and pro-
perty tax under the Act 11th and 12th Victoria, chap-
ter 8." That is, that there should be a grant, and that
that grant should not be charged on a peculiar income
and property tax for Ireland, but as there is such a
grant
extendedto be
to I
made,re
ild T
the
Inn
andpropertynaeiea
the tax
meanings h o ul d
be
of the proposition. Now, if this were a general tax
affecting the United Kingdom, supposing the exigencies
of the public service required that there should be either
a land tax imposed, or an income tax and property tax,
it might be very fairly put before the House of Com-
mons, they agreeing generally that the exigencies of the
public service did require a tax to a certain
amount, whether they would agree to the one
proposition, or whether they would take the
other. But in this peculiar case what I feel is that
there might be a great majority of the Irish Members
in favour of Mr. Herbert's proposition, that that
might in fact be the sense of the representatives
for Ireland; but that the other proposition being sup-
ported by the Government, being the Government pro-
position, those who placed their confidence in the Go-
vernment voting for that proposition, there might be a
majority of the House of Commons against that general
sense of the Irish Members. Such being the case, there-
fore, I wish to obtain from you some intimation, not
immediately, but in the course of the next twenty four
hours, as to what would be the course of the Irish Mem-
bers, or the majority of the Irish Members, in respect to
this proposition. I should not, however, act fairly, and
fully explain the intentions of the Government, if I were
not to say, that according to all the information which
we have collected, both in the past year and the present
year, with respect to an income and property-tax upon
the same classes and to the same amount as in England,
if we were to make that proposition, we should feel it
necessary to accompany it with other propositions with
respect to taxation in Ireland. When I so
speak, I may at once declare that I do not
conceive that there would be an objection in point of
justice to the extension of the assessed taxes to
Ireland, but I -do think there would be an insuperable
objection in point of wisdom and expediency. I think
the reasons for which Lord Ripon thought in necessary
to repeal the assessed taxes in Ireland were reasons
which were very powerful at that time, but I think they
are far more powerful at the present time. Therefore
the proposition I should make would not be an extension
to Ireland of the assessed taxes, but we should, if we
proposed to assent to Mr. Herbert's proposition for the
extension of the income and property tax to Ireland, hold
ourselves at liberty to propose an extension to Ireland of
other taxes which are now paid in Great Britain, and
which are nut paid in Ireland now, to a certain amount.
The whole amount would not be more than we now ex-
pect to raise by the rate in aid. I have stated gene-
rally the view which the Government take. Ido hope
that by eleven o'clock to-morrow morning I may be
informed of what the course is which at fire o'clock
the Irish members would generally take with respect to
Mr. Herbert's motion. I shall now retire from this room,
but it may occur to you that there may be some ques-
tions which you wish to ttAt me, or some further expla-
nation which you wish to have, and therefore I shall be
in the room next to this, and if you will send me :eines-
geyou wish
A wish to see me any further, I shall be ready
to attend
N. MEMBER—There is an answer at once to be
given
Lord J. RUSSELL—I think it better that I should
ai thatet uno
o d y y
retire. our Lordship.
No final decision was arrived at before the Hon. Mem-
bers quitted Downing-street, but we learn that Sir Lu-
cius O'Brien subsequently waited upon Lord John Rus-
sell on the part of a portion of them, and intimated to
his Lordship that he would call a meeting, in order to
endeavour to ascertain the feelings of the majority, and
to furnish her Majesty's Government with an answer by
one o'clock this day.