The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-04 00:00:00

(Chears.) This letter was addressed to the Bishop of the
dioce,e of London, and to such a man, a Protestant Prelate,
the writer of the letter had. the hardihood to address
his threats of destruction to the Protestant Church.
(Cheers.) However greatly he admired the talents and elo-
quence of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Sheil), he
must dcclere that he had the night before introduced many
topics in his speech that did not appear to him (Sergeant
Jackson) to have any application to the subject under discus-
sion. He had drawn a contrast between this country and
Russia, and the conduct of Russia to Poland. Did the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman wish to live under a despotic Go-
vernment rather than the free Government of this country ?
Scotia ad had been mentioned, and it had been said that there
was as much difference between the religion of the people of
Seotlaad and the Protestant Church as there was between
the Protestants and the Roman Catholics ; but this he utterly
denied; The people of Scotland, the Minister of the Church
of England, the Protestant Church of Ireland could all em-
brace each other as fellow Christians —( Loud cheers)—but
not so the Protestants and Roman Catholics. In dealing with
the criestion of tithes, it should never be lost sight of that the
great body of the property of Ireland was in the hands of Pro-
testants, and that it was they, therefore, and not the Roman
Catholics, who chiefly- bore the burthen of tithes ; and if tithes
were to be abolished to-morrow they would go into the pockets
of the proprietors, arid not into those of the occupiers.
The strong tie that bound Ireland to England was the Pro-
tes;a it Church Establishment, and that once abolished the
link was at once broken. There could be no doubt that the
Rom In Catholics forthed the majority of the population of

Ireland. They were therefore jus:tilied,- according to the doc-
trine laid down last night by the Noble Lord (J. Russell), in
thinking that their religion ought to be the established religon
of the country. If this was the case, why stop short at so
paltry a sum as 50,000/. ?—( Cheers.) Did he not know that
if he yielded so much to the Member for Kilkenny (Me.
O'Connell) he must eventually be compelled to give him up
the whole. How much would content the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman ? Would 50,0001.—would 100,000/. ? He would
prove to the Houie, from the words of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman himself, that it would not. He would prove that
his object was to put an end completely to the Protestant
Church in Ireland. Give that Hon. and Learned Gentleman
the appropriation clause, give him that platform to stand
upon, and it was easy to see what use he would make of it.
He himself told them what use he Would make of it; and, to
do him justice. he would upon this point be a man to his
word. He (Mr.! Jackson), now held i ► his 11:441 a. letter
written by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to a Member of
that House. He regretted the Noble Lord (J. Russell), was
not now in his place.—(llear, hear, and a laugh from the
Ministerial benches.) He was well aware that anything he
could say would have but little weight with Ministers ; and,
indeed, there. was not .one of them now present,—( Cheers
from' the Opposition.) If they were, they might learn a
lesson as to the views and opinions of the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, from their looks, and their manner, and their cheers
upitin this oceosion. In a letter addressed by the Hon. and
Learned Gentleinan the Member for Kilkenny, in 1834, to his
Hon'. Friend the Member for Dundalk, he stated his reasons
for accepting, at that time, only a partial reduction of tithe.—'
[The letter was read. It stated in substance that he (Mr.
O'Connell) wanted a reduction to the amount of three fifths,
but could get no more than two-fifths, which he accepted, as
he could not destroy the whole ; that he was always ready to
accept any instalment, however sm of that debt of justice
which was due to the people of Ireland. It was the true
national debt of Ireland ; that though he now got only a part,
he was determined to go on and look for the whole.l He was
greatly surprised last night to hear the Noble Lord (J. Rus-
sell) say that the use of an Establishment was for the instruc-

ticrrc of the people. He always thought, and he thought so
still, that the 1130 of an Establishment was to teach religion.
The Noble Lord said he was not prepared to carry out his prin-
ciple of a majority in Ireland. He would be called upon to do so,
The Hon. Member for Kilkenny would compel him to do so ;
otherwise he, who put the present Ministers into their sca'.s,
would put them out. This he told the Noble Lord—( A Member
on the Ministerial benches—" Unless they do justice to Ire-
land.") Now, what was justice to Ireland ? Did it only mean
a recognition of the principles of appropriation? What would
it be next Thursday ? (Cheers from the Opposition.) They
would then, no doubt, be called upou to do justice to Ireland—
to give her municipal corporations, normal schools of agitation
from one end of the country to the other. On Thursday they
would have the Peers, lay and clerical, abused because they
presumed to differ from the wise and potent House of Com-
mons. They would be told that, without an organic change
in the constitution of the Honse of Lords, justice meld not
be done to Ireland. It was quite impossible to say what would
be the ultimatum of justice to Ireland. He must confess that
he admired last night the frankness of the Member for Water-
ford ( Mr. Barron). That lima. Gentleman said that if pro-
perty of any kind was to be borne down by popular clamour
and agitation, no property could be safe. Now, why not
support the rights of the Church to her property ? He had no
doubt that the laws would be submitted to in Ireland if they
were impartially administered. He could not, however,
approve of the attacks which the same lion. Member (Mr.
Barron) made upon a Noble Lord ( Stanley) not now in his
place. It was not just on the part of that Hon. Member to
say that the Noble Lord did not wish and did not mo- to...ad
settle the tithe question ; that what he wanted, aim through
means of that question, to undermine the present Ministers,
and then to take their place!, Did not the Member for \Va.
tet ford well kntiw that the reason why the Noble Lord abjured
place and power, was because he would not consent to have
the property of the Church alienated ?—( Cheers.) Sooner
than do that he abandoned place and power, and forsook the
friends with whom he had so ton.- acted ?—( Cheers.) The
0t.”,2 tv4os • deeply indebted to that Noble Lord for having
given so much of his time to the preparation of his Bill. It
contained ail that was valuable in the Ministerial measure,
with ereat improvements which the, other Bill had not. TO
the Ministerial measure he objected, not only to the appropria-
tion clause, but to other arrangements. He felt quite confi-
'lent the present Bill was not prepared by the Noble Lord
(J. Russell). Somebody, however, must have prepared it.
He could not say whom. He objected to it, also, because
it did away entirely with the Protestant boundaries of pa-
rishes, having the Roman Catholic boundaries as they were.
The returns of the Commissioners of Public Instruction were

not to be relied upon.----( Hear, hear.) He had seen p letter
from a priest in the county of Cork, in which he had stated
that he would take very good care there should not he fifty
Protesta.its in his parish.—(Opposition cheers, and a cry
of 4. Narn.") He would not mention names ; but he was
ready to' pledge himself, if the House would allow an inquiry
into the subject, to prove that the threat was not only held
Out, but followed up.--( Hear, hear.) He had the word or a
Clergyman, a dignitary of the Established Church for the fact,
hi whose veracity he could place the 'most implicit reliance.
The NuMe Secretary of State for the Home Department had
thought it expedient, for the purpose of withdrawing the at-
tention of the House from the real question before them, to re-
fer to a variety of topics altogether foreign to the occasion, and
among others to the improvements, as he called them, which
had been effected by his Right Hon. Friend the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland in the administration of the law in that part
of the country. The Noble Lord laid peculiar stress on the
:advantage which had been found to result from the disconti-
nuance of the practice which hitherto prevailed of challenging
juries on the part of the Crown. That was a matter of the
greatest importance ; but in his opinion the alteration intro-
duced by his Right Hon. and Learned Friend was by no
meal's calculated to produce the happy results ascribed to it.
lie should be sorry if he, in the course of his speech, had
said anything at all calculated to wound the feelings of any
individual in that House or out of it ; but, adverting, in con-
clusion, to the Act of 1829, which distinctly, in the oath by
which it was accompanied, provided for the security and in-
violate maintenance of the property belonging to the Protes-
tant Church, he could not help appealing, if not to the con-
sciences, to the sense of honour and generosity of Roman
Catholic Members, whether they could as gentlemen reconcile
it to their feelings to alienate any portion of that Protestant
property which they had sworn to maintain ?—(Cheers. )
Mr. WA RD said, looking at the position assumed by the
Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire, he could not but ex-
••

press his astonishment that, with all his talents and influence,
he hail so long' remained utterly regardless of the .mighty
changes which, isince the Reform Bill, had been operated
around hint—a landmark to show how far popular opinion bad
shot a-Lead of him.--( Hear, hear, hear.) The• Noble Lord's

principle was, that the Establishment should be continued in
all its full integrity, and that not one farthing of its surplus
funds should be dedicated to the benefit of the Catholic popu-
lation, but that it should be distributed in each locality among
the Prutestant Ministers of the Irish Church ; that the Ca-
tholics should haVe nothing to look for but perpetual sub-
mission to a yoke which, while the Noble Lord wielded all
the power of this country in Ireland, he found it impossible
to impose on them. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member
_for Cumberland, who spoke last night (Sir James Graham)
altogether repudiated the principle upon which this Bill was
fouoded, and to which the House had solemnly pledged itself.
He was not disposed to quarrel with many of the details of the
Bill as. proposed by the Noble Lord (Stanley), but he could
not help observing that in so far as they were likely to be
beneficial, they precisely harmonised with the provisions of
the Government Bill. The Noble Lord recommended a dif-
ferent distribution of the tithe fund ; lie proposed to parcel it
out among the Ministers of the Protestant Church, and, after
increasing their allowances, rather than give the Catholics the
benefit of anything that might remain, he would
hoild addi-
tional churches, and carry the ramifications the Church Rata-
blishment to the remotest part of the country. What a Pic-
tore did Ireland present of what the Noble Lord was pleased
to eon " the working of a national Church !" where the olergy
were obliged to have recourse to an obsolete Exchequer pro-
cess, with the assistance of the army and the police, and the
actual shedding of human blood, in order to extract from their
reluctant parishioners the amount of their tithes 1 And why?
reams° that national Church comprehended within its pale
but a small fraction of the people, there being 7.,q00000 I
Catholics and only 789,000 Episcopalian Note
Such was the ugtem the'
stants in Ire-
lant R*Ale Lord would still
maint4in: 80, far from the Establishment being the real
bond of Union b.‘tween the twocoontries4 as had been repre-
sPatO bY the Hon. and Learned gergeant who had just ad-
dressed the House, lie was disposed to regard it as the grand
caw wlly the Union had not worked well, There were but
two elements of calcuhltion pp tito other side of the House
-7,141441 A Protemplits 1 $0 many acres; so many Protestants,
and so many Clergymen, who it seemed were all to be
gentlemen. He admitted they should be gentletat% if. by
re'.;iitneraiion, it ought
!!!a eNPre4sion it were mert tic,y %ImitlereiiCive the ad-
”ntis OA iii)er-al.edueation, so as to qualify them ff.,. ,-•
ing toe spiritual charge of tio‘;.• 41-,,-1,,5;
tan rtopoot to
to be borne ;ii wood that there were
among the corn , ri r3,-:- • -. , - Dissenters •
pug
.i,,,,,,5t.uts 10.1>tioo in Ire-
' .ti, 4 4 what I,4a's It! '''.. ' '
.. . , m amounted to only 0,000/, a-year, which was
distributed ' . ' '
.....i.,,T 11.11 110111! of irclAnci io three classes—the first
-*: - . .but.,.7--• • --- ~,,K.

• of IDOL, the second of 751., and the third of only 501., pre-
senting a State provision for the spiritual instruction of a flock
equal in numbers, or very nearly equal, to the whole congrega-
tion of Episcopalian Protestants in that part of the country.
But if land and Protestants were the only elements of calcula-
tion on the subject, he begged to ask were there no Catholics
oh those acres which had' been assigned to. the Protestant
Church 7 The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham)
h'td intimated that the wishes, feelings, and interests of Roman
Catholics should not be taken into consideration in discussing;
such a subject as this. Still, the Catholic population of a
country amounting to seven millions, possessing
.a repre-
sentative Government, not subject to a military despotism,
but exercising more or lets freely the elective franchise,
formed an item not, lie conceived, to be altogether over-
looked in the consideration of this question. The principle of
this whole measure was conciliation, a word which, perhaps,
the Right lion. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) would repudiate ;
nevertheless he repeated the principle of the whole measure
was conciliation of the Catholic population of Ireland, and
conciliation, at the present time, by a very smell concession
indeed. He would not be guilty of the hypocrisy of repre-
senting this as a final measure.—( Hear, hear.) Looking at
the establishment in the state in which this Bill would leave
it, it was imeotsible for him, with the principles he main-
tained, to consider it a final measure. Its Bishops alone cost
151,000/. a-year. He did not see why four Bishops and one
Archbishop should not suffice for all the wants of an Epigrnpal
establishment, and that ,would reduce the exper"7..: to 30,000/.
If ono Bishop were enough for London with 1,700,000 inhabi-
tants, why not four Bishops and one Archbishop for 750,000
Episcopalian Protestants in irelaao The lion. Member
then alluded to the scale of clerical remuneration in Scotland,
and urged the necessity of reducing the Irish establishment to
the same level, lle ( Mr. Ward) thought that the Church of
Scotland furnished an example of what the Church of Ireland
ought to be ; for by no Church were the daties of the Chris-
tian religion better performed, or its objects better effected.
The speech on a former Evening of the Honourable Mem-
ber for Weymouth, showed what might fairly be presumed
to be the opinions of a very influential body of Protest-
ants on that 'eas, His Hon, Friend bad expressed his
coact:mance in that system, whitha had been so attacked. The
essential featuro of that system was its neutrality as regarded
the individuals among whom it dispensed its benefits; and it
was in his (Mr. Ward's) opinion greatly to be regretted that
the dignitaries and clergy of the Church of Ireland should
have set their fames against it from its commencement. Their
apposlt'lon had been unfortunate for Ireland. He was sup-
ported in this view by the opinion of the Rev. Mr. Carlyle, a
Protestant clergyman, who in a published paper on the sub-
ject lamented the opposition of the Church and of the Orange
body generally, to the system of education adopted by the
Commissioners. He was also supported in his opinion by the
Rev. Mr. Stanley, a Protestant clergyman, who had been to
Ireland for the express purpose of watching the Ole-eta of the
system, and who spoke of them in the strongest terms of
praise. Under this view of the ease he (Mr. Ward) could
not bring himself to appPohond danger to the religion which
lie prekesecl, and which he believed to be' the mewl pure form
•of •Cheistianity, front the introduction of education into Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.) But, leasirti ail -minor •ohjcsotions, he
would at once come to a very strong objection which had been
raised against tho measure by the Noble Lord ( Stanley) and
his supporters—that of the appropriation clause being sup-
ported for nothing more than that it was a bond of union for
two political parties. Why, every great question of late years
had been a bond of union, whether for support or opposi-
tion ; for instance, the Test Acts, Repeal, Catholic Emanci-
pation ; and the Reform Bill itself was a bond of union for
the Noble Lord and the Irish Members until it was passed.
—( Hear, hear.) The Isiah: Lord, and those who supported
him, talked about the question being left to the good sense of
the people of England. Tho people of England had already
been twice appealed to on it, and their answer had been un-
favourable to the Noble Lord's views. Every one must recol-
lect the circumstances under which the Right lion. Baronet
opposite came into power. He was absent from this country,
but was sent for by the King, and entered office, certainly,
with the well-merited confidence of the people. Well, as
soon as he returned to this country, his first declaration as to
the course which his Government meant to vitteinie \Yea
anxiously looked for by all parties. That declaration was
made ; and he must admit that in the Right Hon. Baronet's
address he saw much which seemed to coincide with what he
conceived to be the principles of sound and rational reform.
He then said, that if such were the principles on which the
Conservatives meant to act he could see but little diffe-
rence between the opinions of the two political parties into
which the country was divided. They seemed to him to dis-
agree only on one point ; and that was the question of appro-
priation—the Right Hon. Baronet declaring that he " never
would consent to the alienation of ecclesiastical property for
other than ecclesiastical purposes." It was on this vel;
point that the dissolution took place, and it was on tho eis,estise
relative to the Church of Irelartd that the wh'-'fie of the last
elections turned. That was the point m^:oied on the hustings,
and that was the ground upon 01'.',e n a strong Protestant feel.
ing was sought to be arou'...t throughout the country. Well,
what was the result Whv, that after a brilliant struggle,
every way
..orthy of the high reputation of the Right Hon.
sotronet, he found himself seated on the Opposition benches,
awl advocating principles to which he had previously
been hostile. The Right lion. Baronet had warned them of
the danger of a collision with the House of Lords, and spoke
of revolution as being the inevitable consequence. If they
were to have revolution, all he (Mr. Ward) could say was,
that it vas not to be apprehended from the popular party.
What he desired was peace, but then if peace were only to be
obtained at the expense of principle and denying justice to the
Irish people, he would not purchase it at any such price.
However solicitous he was Tor peace, he would make
minous concessions—( Hear, hear)--and, such being his feel-
ings, lie could have little difficulty or hesitation as to the mari-
ner in which he should give his vote—(Hear.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said that it would be of course for
the country to consider which of the two Bills, that of the
Government, or that of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lancashire, was best calculated to work out the object which
all parties had in view. He would not enter into any dis-
cussion of this part of the subject, because on it he differed
both from the Noble Lord and his Majesty's Government ;
but still, if he were the advocate of the Established Church—
if- he believed in its importance, its essentiality, in its Chris-
tianity, and thought that it ought to be binding on all civil in-
stitutions, he must say that he would not pause for a moment
in making his selection of the Bill proposed by the Noble
Lord, in preference to that brought forward by his Majesty's
Government.—( Cheers from the Opposition side of the
House, answered by ironical cheers from the Ministerial
benches.) He was well aware how ironical were the cheers
with which his declaration had been received by the lion.
Members. opposite—(The Hon. Gentleman addressed the
House from the Opposition side)—and that he was conceding
to them a spirit of sincerity which they did not deserve._
(Renewed ironical cheers and laughter.) Ile woo/d not
shrink, however, from giving free expression to the opinions
which he entertained—opinions which he had always avewed,
because he had not been in the habit of taking up an opinion
one day, and abandoning it the next moment. Neither did
he fear that any Hon. Gentleman would run -to the library
to rake up inconsistencies in his speeches to fling them in his
face. He never concealed his sincere conviction that Chris-

tianity was purely a spiritual principle, which had nothing
whatever to do with civil institutions, that a Church based on
the doctrines of Christianity as propounded by the Scriptures,
was by its alliance with the State seriously hindered in its pro-
gress and usefulness, and impeded in the power which it would
otherwise possess. A sublime system of religion wanted no
such connection, and was only prejudiced by its union with the
State ; but that was not the question which they had now to
discuss,_ because the Hon. Member for St. Alban's had told
them that they were not called upon to regard this as a final
measur;‘. He should like to know whether he was to consider
the Hon. Member as the organ of the Government in this re-
spect, aod for the reason that such a statement was at direct
variance with the preamble of the Bill brought in by the Go-
vernment.—( Hear, from the Opposition benches.) They all
knew th it the Roman Catholic religion was an ancient reli-
gion, end the history of that religion proved that it had been
invarially the same under all circumstances and at all periods.
It was, then, in his 'opinion, utterly impossible for any con-
scientious Roman Catholic to say that he would be satisfied
with this measure—a measure which had for its object the
perpetuation of the Protestant religion.—( Loud and conti-
nued cheering.) No Roman Catholic could say that he
would without exposing himself to the 'eltaTe of hypocrisy—
( Renewed cheering)--nor was it expected by the Hon. Mem-
bers opposite that he wuuld, This assertion was received
without a cheer, but ho could not understand why truth, and
they nil know he spoke only the truth, should not be cheered.
Ile (Mr. D. W. Harvey) knew they were silent in charity
only to themselves—(lronical cheering from the Ministerial
benches)—but he would not shrink from the honest and P.-an
declaration of the opinion which he entertained. Well, this
measure was proposed with the view of tranquillizing- Ireland,
and was it not his duty, the duty of cv‘rey Hon. Member of
that House, to investigate the mailer, and see whether that
statement was accurate or not? Now he asked, would it ac-
complish that object ? Why, it was manifest from the state-
ment of the Hon. Member for St. Alban's that it was not
the wish or desire of those with whom he acted that this
Bill should be a final measure. He did not mean to say
0414 it could not be perpetual do what they might ; but he
did think that they should render it as final as it could be
made, considering the purpose for which it was designed,
according to Parliamentary calculation. It was impossible
that the Dissenters of either England or Ireland could
wish to see the downfall of the Protestant religion; and,.
therefore, as a Dissenter himself, he must express his lope
that they would pass no measure which had not for its ob-
ject the permanency of the Eatabllshecl Church.—( Cheers.)
This Bill proposed to commute tithes into a rent-charge on
the land, Ruch a provision was calculated to give advantage
to t 14.0 agricultural interests ; but then the great question was,
whether, when they had commuted the tithe into a ent-chzge,
the charge would answer the end for which it was made? Ile
did not believe it would, Though the name of tithes might
be altered, the substance would remain the same. If tithes
in Ireland ought to be abolished, and he thought they ought,
whore was the necessity of this tardy justice—this miserable
c mtrivance ? Why not come forward boldly at once to effect
that object, instead of pretending that the Wtaution was the
maintenance of the Church ? ThAt wanl4 be an intow
course to pursue, ancl fof. pig part ho wont' ••,
coursetAtan teakiiiieh tingene,-- iattler take that
It
wal not only his . and paltry conco'si°"tliers
that tb-
~,,,coon, but the convictions of many 0
all;
•-- proposed arrangement could only be tempotricarnrya,nd:
that, it would lead eventually to much g (2.
Some distinguished members of the EstahliShrecd:
of this opi-
nion, them the Rev. Dr. [links, was
precisely of
to his
Church, and
nion, for he said, " Let none lay the flattering
soul that the hatred is against tithes. The hared is against
the Established religion ; and, even though you change tithes
into another description of property, std the hatred will not