The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1836.

the excitement of the House at this moment. After the lapse
' of some time—
Sir E. KNATCHBULL was allowed to proceed— Sir
(said he) I humbly submit to you and to the Committee at
large, whether the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has
been guilty of the disorder you have pointed out ought not,
before the Noble Lord (Stanley) adverts to any other public
topic, to offer some explanation of his conduct.—( Cheers
from the Opposition, answered by loud cries of " Oh !" from
the Ministerial benches.) I leave the matter in your hands,
Sir, satisfied that you will call upon the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to explain.—( Hear, hear !—and cries of "Oh !")
Mr. O'CONNELL—I am quite willing to withdraw the
words which have given offence ; but, at the same time, I
caution the Noble Lord against indulging in such attacks as
called forth this unguarded expression of feeling from me.—
(Cheers. )
Mr. METHUEN endeavoured, amidst the loudest laugh-
' ter, to address the House—but the attempt was vain.
Lord STANLEY then continued ; It appears that my
Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) has taken umbrage at some
expressions contained in my speech. I only think it would
have been more consistent with the rules of the House if my
Noble Friend had reserved any observations he felt it neces-
sary to make upon that point, and until he had the opportunity
to make a general reply.--( Hear, hear.) I think lam not
passing the bounds of parliamentary freedom of speech when
I give as my interpretation of the text afforded me by the
Prime Ministei, that the Government as a Government, are
driven to the adoption of measures such as men acting upon
their own individual judgments they would be desirous to avoid.
(Cheers from the Opposition).

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to order. I was perhaps
to blame for not interrupting the Noble Lord when he used
these words in the first instance ; but as he has now repeated
them, I will not evade the opportunity of pointing out why I
conceive them to be disorderly.—(Cheers from the Ministerial

side.) I can conceive nothing conve3ing kgreater imputation
of dishonour to any set of men than the assertion that they are
driven on by others to adopt measures which, in their hearts
as individuals, they would be anxious to avoid.--( Hear.)
I should have thought, indeed, that the Noble Lord would
have been one of the last to prefer such a charge, because,
however others might have been ignorant of it, I should have
thought that the Noble Lord, of all men, knew the difference
of opinion which long prevailed-- [The remainder of the
sentence was drowned in the cheer with which this observation
was received.] The Noble Lord having now repeated the
words which I conceived to be objectionable and disorderly, I
am now obliged to ask you, Sir, whether it is in order for any
Hon. Member to lay upon any Member of the Government
a charge which implies, as I conceive, the greatest dis-
bonourp and which could not be attributed to any individual
Member of the House without a palpable breach of the order
of debate.—( Cheers. )

The CHAIRMAN—.The Committee will see the great
difficulty of the situation in which I am placed.—(Laughter
and cheers.) I repeat the expression—the Committee must
not only see, but I should hope it would feel, the difficulty of
my situation.—(Cheers.) If I were spontaneously—(A cry
of " Oh I")—Does any Hon. Gentleman refuse to hear the
opinion of the Chairman after it has been asked 2—( Hear,
and cries of" Order 1") I say that the difficulty under which
lam placed is not one of a light nature. If I were sponta-
neously to interrupt every Hon. Member who transgresses the
rules and orders of the House, I should indeed have a laborious
duty to perform.—( Hear, hear.) I abstain from doing, so
because I am afraid of protracting the business of the House;
but at the same time I see I shall never be deterred by any
feeling from taking the proper course when any Hon. Member
seriously transgresses the rules of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
If. I be directly appealed to, to say whether it be disorderly or
not for one Hon. Member to attribute motives to another, I
can only reply—undoubtedly it is—(Hear, hear)--but the
Noble Lord must pardon me if I say that a distinction is to be
drawn between the application of particular terms to indivi-
duals and to bodies of men. —( Hear, hear.) I certainly did
not consider it as of a nature imputing dishonourable motives
to the Government, and therefore I did not interfere.

Lord STANLEY—I am of your opinion, Sir, that in the
observations I made, founded as those observations were upon
the declarations of the Prime Minister, I did not transgress
any of those rules of order which govern the conduct of de-
bate in this House-4 Hear.) The Noble Lord then conti-
nued to observe that the argument he was pursuing at the time
he was interrupted was, that if the great inducement held out
for the adoption of the Bill was the producing a feeling of con-
tentment amongst a large portion of the people of Ireland, he
(Lord Stanley) wished in the first instance to be satisfied be-
fore he made the sacrifice demanded of him, that the general
object for which it was made was likely to be obtained—
( Cheers from the Opposition)—and in order to show that this
Bill would not effect that object, he was stating the opinion of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny, who accused
him of garbling his letter, and whose attention be now there-
fore ventured to request to some passages taken from the
same letter which he was about to quote. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman proceeded, in a subsequent part of
his last address to the people of Great Britain, in these
terms :—" Let me add, bovretter, that in the case of the
Catholics, there is a feature of greater strength, and more
distinctness.—( Hear.) It is this : here tithes were instituted
there glebes were set apart, not by Protestants for Protestant
worship, but by Catholics for Catholic worship. They were
ours ; we assigned them for our purposes—the purposes of the
ten thousand—the force of law, or rather the law of force, has
unjustly torn them from the Catholics, whose property they
were, and given to them the 200 Protestants, whose property
they were not." What was the inference to be drawn from
this passage? With such opinions addressed to them, what
sort of satisfaction was a measure such as the present likely to
give to the people ?—( Hear, hear.) What, too, was the head-
ing of this letter ?—" Justice : justice for Ireland."—(Hear,
hear.) " Here tithes, there glebes," said the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, " were ours—they were unjustly torn
from us—you the people of Great Britain, do justice and
restore them to us."—( Cheers.) There would be some
sense, some reason, some logic in that argument—(Cheers)
'—but there is no sense, no reason, no -logical deduction
to be found in the proposition, which, after the premises
laid down by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in his
letter, says, " Let us take from the revenues of the Es-
tablished Church a miserable portion for the purposes of
general education, leaving the whole of the remainder to
Protestant uses.—( Hear, hear.) Let us give nothing to
the Roman Catholics, who formerly had all, but let us
apply a small portion to the purposes of general education,
and then the people of Ireland will believe that you have done
them justice, whilst at the same time they. have this letter of
the Hon. and Learned Member in their hands—(cheers)--and
they will be contented, and all will be peace and tranquility."
—( Renewed cheering.) But the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman went further, and said " The people of Ireland are mo-
derate (laughter)— they are easily satisfied—(renewed
laughter)—they do not demand all this at present. Less
would now content them."—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial
side.) Yes; but for how long?—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were prepared to do all that was
now necessary to satisfy the demands of the Irish people—let
him just point out in the words of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber what those demands were. The Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman concluded his address in these words :—" Well, the
Irish are at present more moderate—less would now content
us—we desire to have tithes totally abolished; or if any part
remains to be levied, that it shall be applied to the purpose
of giving education to all classes of the people. We do not at
present demand the glebes for the residence of the pastors
whom the people prefer; but I candidly acknowledge that,
as the contest continues and grows warm—as the Pro-
testant clergy identify themselves with the wholesale
slaughterers in the field, and with the more vexatious and
exasperating villainy of the Exchequer attorneys—as the ideas
they excite are of the Kathcormacs, red with the blood of the
sons of vridows,Thr of the odious Exchequer rebellious writs—
all connection with religious institutions is forgotten, and the
Irish Juggernaut of plunder and massacre stands prominent, as
demanding those sacrifices which we formerly thought were
only made to a mere difference in religion. The time is, from
these causes, fast arising when a compromise will be impos-
sible, and those who now refuse an amicable and moderate
arrangement will have to blame themselves when a similar
arrangement shall be rejected indignantly, contemptuously, by
the people of Ireland." A compromise impossible !—a compro-
mise upon what terms ? The total abolition of all tithes, and the
application of whatever might be left of revenue to the.Estab-
lisbed Church to the purposes of general education !—( Hear.)
This was the amicable and moderate arrangement which, ac-
cording to the Hon. and Learned Gentlemau, the House would
have to blame itself for not adopting.—( Cheers.) Did his
Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland (Lord Morpeth) recol-
lect the discussion which took place in that House two or
three days ago? Did his Noble Friend recollect that,
of the twenty-two representatives of Ireland who voted on
that occasion, four only, including the Hon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny, were found to support the mo-
tion of the Government, the other eighteen voting at once
in favour of the proposition for the total abolition of tithes.—
( Hear, hear.) This, then, was a specimen of the sort of con-
tentment which was to be afforded by this Bill to the 7,000,000
of Irishmen who professed the Catholic faith.—.(Cheers.) It
was a measure which would tend to the destruction of the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland. The Prime Minister himself ad-
mitted that it would give a great blow to Protestantism in that
country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. POULTER, amidst loud cries of " Divide," begged
in explanation to say, that in reference to the point alluded to
by the Noble Lord ( Stanley), he (Mr. Poulter) was now
aware that he might have referred to the Tithe Commutation
Act, and not to the Church Temporalities Bill.—(Loud and
general cries of " Divide.")
Mr. O'CONNEL L said, the Noble Lord had rendered it
impossible that he should be wholly silent.--(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord had selected a happy illustration in favour of
the present measure from that very letter of his (Mr. O'Con-
nell's), from which he had quoted some passages. It was
stated in that letter, that in one parish in Ireland 9,990 Ro-
man Catholics were made to pay tithes to a Protestant pastor,
who had only a congregation of 77 Protestants, being the
whole amount of the Protestants in that parish. He (Mr.
O'Connell) supposed that this was all in consonance with
the reason, the common sense and the sound logic, of which
they bad heard so much from the Noble Lord—(Laughter
and cheers)—but was it Protestantism? Whilst such things
were allowed to continue, who was it that gave the blow
to Protestantism ?—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Was it
lie who insisted on the plunder of the 9 990 Roman Ca-
tholics to supply the spiritual wants of 77 Protestants, who
never saw their clergyman ? Or was it he who said that
this was a state of things which brought scandal upon the
Protestant Church, inflicted an injury upon the Catholic
people, and ought, therefore, to be discontinued.—(Cheers.)
Nay, it was a fact, that in the instance to which he had re-
ferred the Protestant Clergyman had- never slept three nights
in his parish since he had been in possession of the living,
though it was true that he had on one occasion taken the

trouble to go all the way from Bath or Cheltenham to Ireland
for the purpose of giving a vote against him ( Mr. O'Connell)
at his election for Kerry.--( Hear, hear.) Was this Protest-
antism ?—(Cheers.) He maintained that the Noble Lord
(Stanley) was the bitterest enemy to Protestantism.—(Hear,
hear.) What was the first Bill brought into Parliament upon
the subject by Lord Hatherton ? It was a measvre which would
have given to the Protestant Clergy in Ireland 771. 10s. per
cent, upon their tithe compositor, throughout Ireland, pay.
able at the Treasury.—(Hear, hear, hear.) That Bill the
Noble Lord ( Stanley) opposed ; and then, to be sure, he
talked to them of his Noble Friends. He (M r. O'Connell)
thought be had shamed the Noble Lord out of the use of that
terms. Instead of Noble Friends, Noble thimble-riggers lie
should have called them.—(Loud cheers.) He had heard the,
Noble Lord call his previous colleagues his Noble Friends
one moment, and the moment after describe them all as thim-
ble-riggers.—(Laughter and cheers.) No phrase, indeed,
was too vulgar for the Noble Lord, provided it was virulent
enough. When the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, came into power, what was the Bill which the
Gallant Officer opposite (Sir Henry Hardinge) brought in ?
A Bill reducing the income of the clergy from 771. 10s.,
which was the amount fixed by his (Mr. O'Connell's)
to 751. a year. The Noble Lord ( Stanley) supported that
Bill ; and it would have been carried through the House of
Lords if it had met the sanction of the Commons. But was
that all ? Last year another Bill was brought in and passed this
House ;it contained an appropriation clause. How much did
that Bill give the Clergy ? It gave them 721. 10s., five per
cent. less than his Bill gave them. In the Committee of the
House of Lords that part of the Bill was adopted. And
these were the friends of the Protestant Church ?—( Hear. )
These were the friends of the clergy, who charged him with
wishing to deprive them of their property ?—( Hear, hear.) If
the majority had consented to have given up the appropriation
clause, that Bill would have been law at the present moment.
What had happened si,nce ? By the Bill now before the
House, the clergy would get 671. 10s., exactly 10 per cent.
less than the Bil which he had proposed would have given
them. This was what the common sense and logic of
the Noble Lord had done.—(Cheers.) Was he (Mr.
O'Connell) notright, then, in warning the Noble Lord and
his party that they would not have such another opportu-
nity of arranging this question as was now presented to them ?
The Noble Lord, in commenting upon the letter which he
(Mr. O'Connell) had addressed to the people of England,
omitted to notice that part of it in which the conduct of
the clergy of Ireland was signalised by their proceedings
in the Court of Exchequer. Did the Noble Lord think that
that conduct was making no impression in Ireland ?:--( Hear,
hear.) I tell the Noble Lord (said the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman) that a compromise he may get this year. He
may not get it next year.--( Hear, hear.) I had almost said
he shallnot get it next year.—( Very great cheering from the
Ministerial side of the House, responded to by ironical cheers
from the Opposition side.) Every hour is diminishing the
valise, and increasing the price. That was the style in which
the Noble Lord gave protection to the Church of Ireland.
Was there the slightest hope that while the people of England
and Scotland were enjoying Corporation reform, and the
people of Ireland were declared unfit and unworthy to enjoy
those rights—( Loud cries of " Question, question," and loud
cheers)—as long as that injustice was done them, and done
them, too, as he had heard, though it had been denied, upon the
ground of thAr alicnage from this country, it was impossible
that satisfaction could be given to Ireland. Yes, that was
another and an additional 'insult cast upon his country. But
the plan he was about to propose was not that the amount
should be reduced to 701., and 21. 10s. for the collection, but
that it should be reduced to 601., and that ten per cent. should
be collected from the quit-rents of the Crown lands in Ire-
land, and which were now applied to beautify towns in Eng-
land, but which ought to be applied to the benefit of Ire-
land. This would make 701., and the 21. 10s. he should pro-
pose to be given as a bonus to every tithe-payer who paid his
tithe. That, with the appropriation clause, would have sa-
tisfied those who were now calumniated as being the enemies
of the Protestant Church, and who, at all events, would be
paying men to that amount from whom they derived no ser-
vice whatever. If that plan were adopted, he was quite
convinced that at present, at least, it would be accepted with
gratitude, and would lay one of the foundation-stones for
the tranquilization of Ireland. But he did not propose that
motion, nor would he. The Noble Lord had talked of
the motion which had recently been 'made for the total
extinction of tithes, and had referred to the division upon it.
He (Mr. O'Connell) opposed that motion. He did so, be-
cause he knew Ireland as well as any Noble Lord or
Hon. Gentleman in that House. For six hundred years
the same system had been pursued towards Ireland.
When the Irish petitioned Edward the Third, who was
called the English Justinian, to admit them into a com-
munity with the English, and to share the protection which
they enjoyed—what was the answer ? He referred their pe-
tition to the great Lords—and what was their reply ? That
it was not for their own interest that the Irish should be
admitted into a community with the English. That was the
answer given in 1336—just five hundred years ago; and here
was a Noble Lord, just five hundred years afterwards, as
ready as ever to carry that resolution into effect.—( Cheers.)
The difference of race was your first pretence—aliens in
blood ; a difference in religion was your next pretence—aliens
in religion I—the cruelty always the same, the paltry excuse
varying. It was now the sublimity of the Protestant Church.
Why, what was it to the Irish who did not believe in the Pro-
testant Church, who did not think it the best ? The Protes-
ants were quite right who thought it the best, to use it as an
argument, but to the Catholics it was no argument at all. He
had heard one young gentleman to-night, while talking of the
rights of the Irish, by way of a set-off, ask, had not the En-
glish rights too? He (Mr. O'Connell) would ask whether
whether any English Member had ever stood up in that House
for the rights of Englishmen who had not been supported by
Irishmen ?—( Cheers.) Why, then, did the Hon. Member taunt
him with the rights of Englishmen ? Did he conceive that
the English were not powerful or free without having the plea-
sure of trampling upon Ireland, and without-being able to gra-
tify that spirit embodied in the Noble Lord, who was go-
verned by a species of half fanaticism, which might be religion,
but was not charity ? He should not have risen if the Noble
Lord had not spoken; but he had now declared his mind
freely. This Bill, if passed, might conciliate the people of
Ireland. Yes, it might have that effect, but he despaired of
its being allowed to pass. He was ready now to give his ut-
most aid in earring it into effect; but he would not promise to
do so another year.—( Hear, and cheers.)
Mr. F. SHAW then rose to address the House amid loud
cries of " Question" and " Divide." The tumult was so in-
cessant that it was impossible to collect a perfect sentence of
the Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman's speech.
All that we could collect, was a denial that the people of
England were in favour of the views entertained by the Hon.
and Learned Member for Kilkenny upon this question, as that
Hon. and Learned Member had assumed.

Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, it is in conformity with the opi-
nion stated by the chair, and in which I think the justice
~of
the House will acquiesce, that I venture to implore your at-
tention while I do give some reply to the charges which, as I
have already said, although I might have expected them from
others, although I should have little attended to them from
the mouth of the Right Hon. Gentleman who has just sat
down—( Laughter)—yet coming from the quarter that they do,
and surprising me as they do coming from that quarter, I can
not consistently with our character—( Laughter from the Op-
position, and loud cheers from the Ministerial side of the House. )
Sir, the amount of this charge as stated by the Noble Lord,
and re-asserted in a different form by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, is this, that upon the question we have been driven
by others, we have consulted others ; and finally, that this
clause has been introduced for some purpose, which purpose,
as it has been sometimes expressed, and as it was clearly in-
dicated throughout the speech of the Noble Lord, was, that of
introducing a question on which we had no settled opinion,
with the view of defeating the Ministry of the Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite. lam obliged therefore to ask the atten-
tion of the House while I most unwillingly refer to something
which passed when the Noble Lord and I were colleagues
together. When the Noble Lord and I were colleagues in
1832, the Noble Lord stated the opinion which he has since
so frequently and so consistently stated with respect to the
Irish Church. I stated, on the other hand, that that Church
was too great not only for religious purposes, and for instruct-
ing the flock committed to it, but that it wrs too large for its
own stability.—(Hear, hear.) At the latter end of 1832 a
plan was prepared for the consideration of the Cabinet
of that day, in accordance with the views of the Noble
LoA, but containing no appropriation for the benefit of the
ire mass of the people of Ireland. I did not conceal
from that Cabinet, above all, I did not conceal from the head
of that Cabinet, or from the Noble Lord, my decided opinion
that some part of the revenues of the Church of Ireland
ought to be devoted to purposes of instruction, in which
Roman Catholics might participate. Sir, the Noble Lord
who now charges me with being driven along into this opi-
nion—(Loud cheers)—and who countenances and abets in
this House the charge that we are basely endeavouring to
retain office by means of upholding an opinion which was
not ours, but which was pointed out to us by others, that
Noble Lord has heard from me, as his colleague, sentiments
as decided—if possible, more decided—than those which I
have ever uttered in this House upon the subject. I com-
mitted those opinions and sentiments to writing, in the form of
a letter, to Lord Grey, with which I intended to accompany
my resignation of office—( Loud cheers)—but I found that
that resignation would have brought on, in a very short time,
as he assured me, the resignation of Lord Althorp, who
was then the leader of the Ministerial party in this House. I
was told by a colleague whom I esteemed, and with whom I
have the honour still to sit in the same @abinet, that the
breaking up of the Cabinet at such a time, just after
the passing of the Reform Bill, when the party of the
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite was so diminished
and when the country considered that the Government could
only be conducted by Earl Grey—l was told that I should be
taking upon myself a very awful responsibility, and that it
might be the means of preventing the settlement of quiet and
good government in this country. I yielded to these opinions,
but I did not yield to them without informing the Noble Lord
that, although I agreed to support the Bill of which he was
the authority, and though I agreed not to divide against any
clause in the Bill, yet that I maintained my own opinions ;
and that I considered the Bill as only the commencement of
reforms and changes which I wished to introduce, and that,
when that change was completed, and when Parliament should
have given its assent to that Act, I should consider myself at
liberty to bring forward and support the principle of which I
had been, with others, the advocate in the Cabinet ; and yet
that was the principle which the Noble Lord now spoke of, as
if it were an opinion taken up by me on the yesterday or
to-day. Well, Sir, I believe it will not be contradicted either
by the Noble Lord or by my Right llon. Friend the Member for
Cumberland that I did support that Bill heartily and effectively
in this House. As soon as that Bill had passed, I remember
—I knew not whether my Right Hon. Friend the Member

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for Cumberland will recollect it; but if he has any recollec
tion of the circumstance he will confirm me in it-that .I told
him that my opinion was the same as ever, and I begged him
to inform the Noble Lord the Member for Lancashire of it;
but at all events I desired him to take it for his OwTinfortna;,,_:\..
tion, that I considered myself at liberty at any time is mei
in the Cabinet and in Parliament that question, namely the
question of appropriation of church revenue to purposes not
now strictly called ecclesiastical. Well, Sir, in the course of
the following year that question came to ba a matter of dis-
cusa•ion, and I was ready at the time, as far as I could to de-
fer for one year that division in the Cabinet which was evi-
dently approaching, but I declared, and that openly, in my
place in this House, that if ever there was a just complaint of
a people, it was the complaint of the people of Ireland against
the appropriation of the Church revenue, and that if it caused
me to make the sacrifice of parting from those with whom I
was united in affection and respect, yet I thought the cause
was so mighty and important a one, that I should not hesitate
to make that sacrifice. The opinion of the majority of that
Cabinet was declared to be in favour of the opinion which I
professed, and the Noble Lord, with three of my other col-
leagues, retired from office upon that very question, it being
distinctly understood what what his opinion, on the one hand,
and what was our opinion on the other. During a great part of
the time that I have just gone over the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman the Member for Kilkenny was opposed for the most
part to the Govornment. In 1834 be was very much opposed
to the Government, declaring his mistrust of our intention.
At a later period, indeed, when I brought the question for-
ward, he of course, seeing the resolution was in conformity
with his own views, supported it ; but I think I may ask the
[louse, such having been my opinion for so long a time, both
in the Cabinet and in the House, whether this imputation
be well founded which has been thrown upon us ?—( Hear,
hear, hear.) And, above all, I will ask whether, although
it might be repeated as a useful cry by some of the retainers
of the party of which the Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Tamworth is the head, whether, if among the cries,
the imputations, and the calumnies of the party, it was una-
voidable that such calumnies should be used, still I do ask the
House, and I ask it with all solemnity, whether the Noble
Lord the Member for Lancashire ought to be the person to
use it? The Noble Lord says that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Kilkenny has written a letter, in which he de-
clares that he will not pay, and never will be satisfied while
he is required to pay tithes, and he proceeds to quote other
opinions of the Hon. and Learned Member. Sir, that Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, in the exercise of his own judgment.
and in his own view of what is best for Ireland, bas supported
the present Government. The present Government has re-
ceived from him undoubtedly strong, and I must say, very fair
and honourable support.—(Great cheering.) But I never
found that the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny ever
gave up or at all renounced any one of his opinions upon the
many subjects which have engaged his attention—opinions
varying from ours, and which he carried to a much greater
extent than we have ever carried them, calling for reforms not
only with respect to the Irish Church, not only with respect
to Irish tithes, but with respect to many questions relating to
the domestic policy of this country. But, Sir, if he has not
given up, or retracted, or swerved from his opinions, I think I
may say that upon this subject at least we neitherhave changed
our opinions. The Noble Lord has asked me to look at

the list majority on this question, and to analyze that m;x
in -
jority, and see if I shall not find many persons it
who wish to destroy the Church of Ireland, and to carry
measures much further than I do. I might ask the Noble
Lord look back to the majorities upon the Reform Bill, and
upon many other Bills, in which he will find men of various
opinions. Let him look upon the majority when the Reform
Bill was first brought forward, and lost by one vote. Were
there not in that majority advocates of universal suffrage,
and many who called for far more extensive changes than
that which we advocated? Did this circumstance afford any
grounds why those who considered the measure calculated
to benefit the country should not bring it forward at all,
or, having passed it, should not abide by it ?—( Hear, hear.)
It was stated that in the course of the last debate he had said
that the purpose of a Church Establishment was not to pro-
pagate a doctrine but to instruct a people, and from this it
had been inferred, not unjustly, that he disconnected from
the objects and business of the Established Church in Ireland
the promulgation of its doctrines. What he had said agreed
fully with the opinions of Paley, and neither Paley nor any
other man would say that it was not the duty of a Minister to
propagate his doctrines. The object was so to instruct the
people as to have them versed in the doctrines of religion and
of morality, and to take care that that instruction is given in
the best possible manner. —( Hear, hear.) It was of no use
merely to have a Protestant Establishment in Ireland. What
he (Lord John Russell) wished was to diffuse through that
country a system of instruction, not limited to Protestant in-
struction, but which should partake of the common doctrines of
Christianity—love to one's neighbour, charity to all men—the
great and sublime doctrines in which the Roman Catholic was
of one mind with us.—(Hear, hear.) At this late hour of the
night it was not his intention to carry the House into ques-
tions of figures, but in reference to some of the general results
he might describe in what state this plundering and spoliating
measure left the Church of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) These
same words, plunder and spoliation, though applied by a
bishop in giving a charge to the clergy of Exeter—(Hear,
hear)—and re-echoed by the Noble Member for Lancashire,
were somewhat outrageous phrases, but they did not frighten
him from his well-considered purpose.—(Hear, hear.) He
would now proceed to exhibit the state of the Irish Church
as it would be fixed by the proposed Bill. The expenditure
and receipts of the Irish Church under the Bill would stand
thus :

EXPENDITURE.

Archbishops, two £17,780
Bishops, ten

1/4£67,367
To dignitaries and prebendaries, with cure 11,042
To minor canons and vicars choral, having duties
To parochial clergy (1,250) 368,350
To curates (241)
To vestry cess and repair of churches
Building new churches 20,000
Ditto glebe houses . lO,OOO
Expenses of commission and interest on £100,000... 14,000
Income of general fund applicable to meet defi-
ciencies and pay loans
To surplus

35,140
65,439

£683,737
After repaying loans, the total surplus will amount to
£100,579

RECEIPTS.
Net Revenues arising from the continuing archiepis-
copal and episcopal sees £67,367
Net revenues belonging to dignities and prebends,
with cure 11,042
Net revenue from junior canons and vicars choral
estates 14,324
Net revenue from rent charges, glebe lands, minis
tors' money, and other funds of small amount 4M,864
Amount of the general fund in the hands of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners arising under the Church
Temporalities Act, the Act to alter and amend said
Act, and the present Tithe Bill

£683,737
The average net income of each archbishop will be £8,890
Ditto
Ditto
Ditto
The Noble Lord proceeded to observe that it should be recol-
lected that the duties of the archbishops and bishops thus libe-
rally remunerated, would be far less onerous than those of
the prelates of England. Was it too much, then, having pro-
vided such an establishment for Ireland, to ask that Parlia-
ment would so:far indulge the wishes of the people of Ireland
as to show them that the Roman Catholics of that country
were not considered a total blank, but were taken into account
in considering the important question of national education.—
( Hear.) If the sum was not a great one in amount, he con-
ceived that he might rely upon its being gratefully accepted as
a token and sign that the British Parliament took an interest
in the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
opposite hinted that the majority of a former night might on
this occasion be found somewhat lessened. He (Lord John
Russell) left it most confidently with the House to decide on
which side of the question lay justice and good policy. No
system which had not kindness and moderation as ingredients,
would ever succeed ; and having such feelings as these, he
could assure the Noble Lord that, whether in that place or in
any other, he should ever oppose any vote which the Noble
Lord might have to propose for the purpose of carrying on
expensive and sanguinary campaigns in Ireland.

The Committee then divided.—
For the clause 290
Against it
Majority for Ministers ... ... —26
The clause was accordingly agreed to.
The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported progress
and obtained leave to sit again.
The other Orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past One.

FEMALE BEAUTY is alone to be attained and
preserved by Vinceitt'a Gowland's Lotion. This entirely
innor;ent balsamic lotion produces a beautiful roseate com-
plexion, and a clear, white brilliant skin, thoroughly cleansing
all discolouration, every imperfection and coarseness, and im-
parting the transparency and bloom of beauty. It preserves
the complexion from the heat and rays of the sun and dust,
and to families travelling, enjoying excursions, promenading,
&c., is indispensable to comfort and attraction. It imme-
diately allays any unpleasant heat of the face, all inflamma-
tion, parched skin, &c., diffusing a delightful refreshing cool-
ness. It totally eradicates all cutaneous eruptions, tan, sun-
burns, freckles, spots, redness, &c. Gentlemen after shaving
will find it cooling and grateful. Prices 2s. 9d., 55. 6d., and
Bs. 6d. Observe the signature "M. E. Vincent" on the
label, and " Robert Shaw, 33, Queen-street, Cheapside," en-
graved on the Government Stamp. Sold by all respectable
medicine venders, perfumers and druggists. Ask for Vin-
cent's Gowland's Lotion.

MRS. TROLLOPE'S NEW WORK ON AMERICA.-
Great as was the popularity of Mrs. Trollope's sketches of
the " Domestic Manners of the Americans," her new work
upon the same subject, which includes pictures of life in the
backwoods and on the shores of the Mississippi, has vastly ex-
ceeded it in public estimation, t'ae demand on the first day of
publication having nearly absorbed a large edition. The native
cunning and disregard of principle of Jonathan Jefferson
Whitlow, the prominent character in the book, the son of a
settler in the wilds of America, elevates him in sr ite of his lu-
dicrous ignorance, to power and consequence i.n the States.
Mrs. Trollope's treatment of such a subject may be easily
imagined.

PRICES OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
ank Stock. o'o% 111 India Stock —
3 per Cent Red. .... .......... ...9i 34 Ffi i Ditto Bonds 3 I pm.
3 per Cent Cons....
2% per Cent
Ditto Red. 0q3041 New Ditto —
New 3y;,per Cent. —l3 per Cent. Annuities, 1751 —
New 3 per Cent —Exch. Bills, .£l,OOO ... 15 17 14 pin,
Bank Long Annuities to expire ;Ditto 500 15 17 14 pm,
Jan. 5, 5860 --IDitto Small l5 17 14 pm.
Oct. 10, Igso ,-- !Ditto Commercial ... ...... pm,

Jan. 5.. MO. .. — Ditto Advertised pm.
Jan. 5, 1880.— - Bank Stock for Account —
April 5, 1880 ... . India Stock for Account —
Jan. 5, 1870 - i Consols for Acconnt 92%3S
Omnium pm.

PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Austrian Bonds lPeruvian Bonds • ' ••••
Belgian Bonds 19234% i . Ditto Account
Ditto Account .
Brazilian Bonds .... - —. Ditto Account
Ditto Account — Ditto New Bonds
i Buenos Ayres Bonds — I Ditto Account ...
Ditto Acs ount — , ,
Ditto, 3 per cent.
Chillian Bonds — i Prussian Bonds
Ditto Account --IRussian Bonds, 18.2 IIIU
--Colombian Bonds ! Ditto Account ....... -- ....... ...
Ditto Account 0 1 Ditto Metallic ..d —
Columhian Bonds, i 52.4 iSPanish Bonds —;

52%3

Ditto Accannt .3 lli,i IA% 1 4Ditto Account —
Danish Bonds
-
Ditto Account
Greek Bonds -...-` French, 5 per cent........... —I. —c.
Ditto Bonds, 13•25
—, , 4 percent. —f —c.
Ditto Account — I " per cent........... —f. —c.
.4
Mexican Bonds, 5 per cent —•— Exchange. ....... ... —f. —c
Ditto Account — !Dutch, 2 per cent.
Ditto, 6 per cent. .. :... ..... :34% 1 Ditto Account —
Ditto Account Ditto, 5 per tent ' 1i.:2:% Ti
I
Neapolitan — I Ditto Account iO2

PR[CE3 OF SHARES THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Paid. Per Share
_ _ _

Birmingham. Bristol, and Thames Junction
Commercial Blackwall Railway Company
Eastern Counties Railway
Great Western Railway Company
Leeds and Manchester Railway Company
Brighton Railway Company
L,ndon and Blackwall Railway
Lon ion Grand Junction Railway
I%orthern and Eastern Railway Company
North Midland Railway Company
Anti Dryrot Company
London Conveyance Company

2%
10% 914

M A 1 LS.

Arrived. Duo.
0 America
0 Brazil 11
litienoi Ayres 0
Carthl,gea 0
1 Dublin ...
0 l'hiiciers

!Arrived. Due. Arrived. Duo
I France 0 0 Lisbon 0
0 Ouern.&Jersey 0 0 Malta ..... 0
0 Hamburg 0 0 Mexico 0
0 flolland ...... .... 0 0 OsZend 0
0 Jamaica ..... ..... 0 0 Sweden 0
0 Leeward Isfands 0 1 Waterford 0

IIIE:11 WATER AT LONDON MUDGE To-7.zon.rtow.
...... :nitintes :Ince 7 I Evoninz 6 minutes after 8.

HAMBURG, JULY 1, 1836.
IIEIOUR DAYS OF DRAWING of the 68th
HAMBURGH GREAT LOTTERY being past, and the
Wheel being reduced to the trifling number of 6,000 (say Six
Thon sand ) Tickets,—
TICKETS WARRANTED UNDRAWN are now selling at
Bancomarks 140, or £lO, say Ten Ponds sterling. On the next
Day of Drawing, the Third of August, the First Drawn Prize of
Bancomarks 300, receives the premium of Bancomarks 10,000, and
the Last Drawn Prize of Bancomarks 300, receives the largest
premium of Bancomarks 100,000.

There will be a further rise in the price of Tickets before the end
of this month. Orders for anything less than a whole Ticket, will,
as usual, not be attended to ; thus any persan remitting less than
Ten Pounds sterling, will only throw away the postage for sending
and receiving back the money or Bank notes. •
HEINE BROTHERS CONTRACTORS, in HAMBURG.