The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIA \'IENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, DECEMBER 17.
THE REFORM BILL:
(Concluded from the Sun of Satierday..)

Mr. S. WORTLEY, in continuation; said, he had notv ex-
plained to the House the length to which he agreed With the
fe-ovisions of the present Bill; and if it were asked why, when
he was prepared to disfranchise to the extent of sthedult A, and
to enfranchise to a considerable extent, he Was stilt not prepared
to vote for the second reading of the present Bill, his answetWas,
that he had not made these admissions upon any c'onviction that
such alterations were either expedient or necessat'e,--.(ilear,
hear, hear.) If Governtnent still was determined to per-
severe in forcing upon that House, avid upon the great bddv
of the intelligent, wealthy, and respectable patt of the
community, this Bill through successive sessions, he seonid very
much regret such a course of procedure i bet still he hoped- that
many who had previously supported government would co-
noerate with those who were desirous to amend, and make the
Bill less objectionable, and as safe for the country at posaible.
—(Hear.) At all events, he trusted there would still be 'Spirit and
courage enough in thefriends of the Constitkititin to enable them to
chew that front in a bold and fearless discharge of their duty to
the House and to the public, as should again save the country
from the infliction of this ill-advised and dangerous measure.--
(Cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. GODSON then addressed the House, but in so low a tone
that it was with much difficulty we could hear him. The altera-
tion, he said, that had taken place in this Bill had not touched
the principle, and, therefore, he would support it by his
vote.—(Paai.) .1 he 101. clause, although altered, somewhat
brought back the franchise, and made it more conformable to
the common law right. In every quarter it was admitted that
some Reform was necessary, and indeed why should its necessity
not he admitted ? For what was Reform but the adaptation of
the Constitution of former times to the spirit and intelligetce of
those in which we live? The main question nOW was, the per-
mitting of the present Bill to go into Conunlttee. Why
should Honourable Gentlemen object to the second reading
bi long speeches, whets they knew by the Vete of last session that
the 8.11 must go into Committee? The question was not whe-
ther this one or that belonged to one party or another, acing
will the Ministry or any other patty, the dttty all in that
Home was to suit the Constitution to the present changes in the
circumstances of society ; and in lb s tenimittee the details of
the Bill would be sufficiently attended te.
Colonel WOOD could have Ito diffitulty in yoting on this
occasion, and in voting for the aeeond reading. He had Voted
for the second reading of the last Bill, and heard tibne so under
a sincere wish that that Bill might hat Undergone in Com-
mittee such amendments and alteratirna as would haVe qualified
him in voting for the passing of that Bill into a la,w ; but the
Bill had unfortunately, in his Opinion, Veen fdreed thittigh the
Committee with little or no alteration and and the consequence
of that indiscreet haste had been the losing of the Bill. He
hoped that though this Bill hitd been considerably amended,
vet that as it contained teettal things objectionable, it would in
Committee be stried of those objections, which to him it still
*wetted liable tie would state wherein it Was in his Opinion
objectionable, and how far it had been arrlanded. In the
first plate he thought preserving. the ;Meld numbers of the
'Howe st very great amendment. Biit though the numbers had
becththai ntained, the propertM of th e Members returnedto Pashas
ntbythethreekitlgitomshadremained, which was a great fault.
The relative rfe.tkirtlon of Members from the three kingdoms
was exet at the most important periods, namely the Union
attlh(tt • &.MI and the Union with Irelands AM the arrange.
Weak S! those periods ought net wow be be disturbed. The
tptiseset'at Bill was based oil propettY Mitt taxation ; and he thought
if The relative proportions Welt taken in reference to taxation,
It would appear that Irelatill in particular had not any reason to
complain Of net hating a fair number of representatives,
far that tountty paid only about five millions of taxes,
avltile England and Scotland paid about forty millions,
He IYOped, therefore, that in Committee he would see the pre-
sent number of Irish Members retained, It was decidedly
against the feeling of the English people that the number of
, Irish representatives should be increased at the expense of the
English. As to the schedules, he found that in schedule A. there
were 56-56 there were in the last. schedule A, but then the
present 56 were certainly not precisely the same as the last.
The present schedule was framed, oh -a much juster basis than
the last, though he (the Gallant Cotonel) could not well judge
of the basis until the House knew exactly how the particulars
respecting each borough had been drawn up. Lieut. Drum-
mood's calculation seemed to be very ingenious, but at present
the merits of it were not known. He could not see what
particular merit there was in the number flfty.six.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who had introduced this
had said it was necessary to draw an arbitrary line, and he
suppOscd, therefore, It must be taken that, draw this line as it
might, it must product hity.six. It might be, also, that this
number of fifty-siX had been introduced its consequence of what
a Noble Earl was represented to have said in another place,
',chiefs was that he would not consent to be a party to
the bringing forward of any measure which was less efficient
than the last Bill. He hoped, however, that this was not the
cause, else it could not be expected that justice was to be attended
to. With respect to schedule B, that schedule was defective. If
there were any nomination boroughs in it, they ought to be
taken out and put into schedule A and disfranchised at
once; but If not, then the Constitution gave to the
boroughs in that schedule the representatives, and it would
be injustice now to deprive them of one of them.—(Hear.)
In the next place, as regarded corporate bodies, his opinion was
that all corporations should be allowed to retain all the rights and
privilece, they now possessed. There was an inconsistency in the
Bill. The Noble Lord who introduced themeasure had stated, that
where it was his Majesty's pleasure to grant acharter to a new town;
the electors were to have new corporate rights. Now if Govern-
ment gavenew corporate rights to enfranchised towns, with what
colour of justice could they take away corporate rights in towns
that already existed ? Wherever freeholders were in any city
or borough, he hoped that, contrary to the anomaly of the last
II ill, they should, from 40s. and upwards, have a right to vote in
that city or borough. He trusted too, that copyhold rights of voting
would be adopted. With respect to the 101. right of voting, there
was an imperfection that it would be necessary to rectify. As it
at present stood, and as he understood it, the man who occupied
a house valued 10/, and paid poor's rates, without any specific
value, was to have that right of voting. Now this would be ex-
tremely inconvenient, it would inundate the country with end-
less questions as to value. From one end of the land to another,
it would be impossible, without endless litigation, to fix the
tight, or to produce a real and efficient title of franchise founded
on it.. In fact this was the very qualification under which the
right of settlement was granted, but that occasioned such uni-
versal litigation in the Court of Sessions, that that right of ob-
taining a settlement was repealed, and the only mode which was
afterwards fixed was the occupation of a house of 10/. rated at
that rent. His opinion, therefore, was that the household quali-
fication should belong to a person holding a 101. house, and rated
at that sum. By this means all the questions of registry would
be settled, and the country would not be inundated by travelling
barristers, solicitors, and attornies, and the whole train of others
whom it would be disagreeable to mention. He had one consi-
deration to suggest to the Noble Lord. He trusted, if that Noble
Lord was of opinion that this registration was of great importance,
If his object could not well be gained without it, that the Bill
should be divided, and that the registry clauses should be sub-
mitted apart ; they might then stand or fall by their own merit.
Why should such complicated clauses, whose importance and
necessity he very much doubted, be dragged through this and
the other House at the heels of the Reform Bill. So much was
he of this opinion that he almost felt it to be his duty to give
notice of a motion upon the subject in Committee; but he was
unwilling to do so lest he should be charged with interposing a
barrier to the progress of the Bill, merely for the sake of delay.
He stated this, however, most conscientiously, and with a view
to the due construction of the Bill. He certainly would vote for
the second reading of the measure, and he hoped that in a Com-
mittee it tv, uld undergo such amendments as would not only
pass that House, but would ensure a favourable recep-
Con for it in the other branch of the Legislature. He was
however, certainly anxious that, amended and stripped of its
objectionable qualities, it should be passed into a law. But it
would be much better that each party should make some con-
cession—concession should not all come from one quarter. But
if each party bereand elsewhere conceded a little, the question
would no doubt speedily and satisfactorily to the country be ami-
cably adjusted.—(Hear.)
Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, the necessity for any
Measure of Reform rested on the state of the constituency of
that House, and never since the Revolution had its constituency
stood on so contracted a basis. So far from having increased in
proportion to the wealth and intelligence of the country, it had
most materially since 1698 been narrowed and contracted. The
admission of great towns to a share in the representation was
atrictl: constitutional, while the question of disfranchisement
was not new to the Constitution. There were now eightnilaces
in this country which had once returned Members to that House,
which did not now enjoy that right. As to the household
constituency, he had his doubts whether the 10/. qualifi-
cation was sufficiently high in large towns. As to the advantages
which would be derived from such a measure of Reform to the
people at large, he was not so sanguine in his expectations as to
say that an increase of labour or of wages would perhaps be the
result, but the great besetting sin of all Governments, whether
Whig or Tory, a too liberal handling of public money, would by
that means be prevented from occurring ; and upon the important
questions to be brought forward before the House, the East India
monopoly, the Bank Charter, and many other questions, the
people would have their own representatives to determine them,
and if they relinquished their duty, or betrayed their trust, they
would closely and vigilantly be watched, so that benefit by that
means would accrue to the country.
Colonel SIBTHORPE rose for the purpose of opposing the se-
cond reading of the Bill. In doing so the Gallant Colonel ob.
served that they were now called upon to come to a decision on
a measure which had been introduced in a very imperfect state-
ment by the Noble Lord opposite only on Monday last, on which
depended the security and welfare of the country at large. The
Hots. Member for Caine had told the House yesterday, that there
was great danger in hasty measures, and that his Majesty's Mi.
nisters had found out great defects in the former measure; but
in his opinion, if ever there was a measure brought forward in
haste, and which required great deliberation, it was the present
one. Though he was one that was not opposed to all Reform,
—though he saw a necessity for it, yet until he saw such
measure recommended by Ministers as would give a safe
and salutary Reform, l•e should fearlessly in his place give his
decided opposition to all measures. No person would have felt
more grateful than himself to have seen his Majesty's Ministers
introduce that species of Reform to which he could have given
his conscientious vote. With regard, however, to the present
Bill, he was ready to admit every tittle that was given should be
received with candour; hut to his mind, notwithstanding all the
improvements that had been talked ef, there still remained in
the Bill those. exceptionable clauses which he could not stomach,
for if he did he felt certain he should be sick at heart. The 10/
clause appeared to him neither more nor less than one of
the most unjust he had ever beheld, for he felt confident it would
operate so partially one way, and be so binding another, that
neither justice nor security could have been taken into consi-
' deration in the framing of it. Much had been said of'the al.
, terations in schedules A and B. What had been done in those
schedules appeared to him like a little changing sides and back
again, but still there remained those sweeping enactments which
he could never countenance. As to the alterations in schedule
B, he agreed with an Honourable Member who addressed the
House last night, that the Ministry might almost as well have
done away with that schedule altogether. Another objectionable
point was the division of counties. The perpetuity of resident
freemen, he admitted, was desirable, but no thanks were due
to his Majesty's Ministers for that, it was but an act of
strict justice to continue it to them, and a very great robbery
to take it from them. It had been given as a sort ofsugar:plum, or
composing draught, by which Ministers hoped to make theirpeace
with those who, by the last Bill, they intended to rob. He wished
the Noble Lord's opposite Lord J. Russell's) attention to the
next point he should advert to, namely, with regard to the right
of voting in counties corporate. When he looked at the present
Bill he found many cities, which were counties of themselves,
omitted, such as Canterbury, Exeter, Haverford-west, Lich.
field, Nottingham, and Norwich ; he wished, therefore, to
know what sort of voting they were to have, whether they were
to vote for the town or the county ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked whether the Gallant Colonel
wished him to answer that question now ?
Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that he did not wish it an-
swered now, but he knew many Members who were under the
same difficulty as himself in making out the meaning of the
present Bill, which he believed nobody could understand.—
(Hear, hear.) He was glad however to find that the farmer
of fifty pounds a year was at last to have some little voice
in the representation of the county in the House of Commons.
There was another part of the Bill of last session, which he
A, Colonel Sibthorpe) was glad to see his Majesty's Ministers
thought v:as more honoured in the breach than in the
7_z fint He alluded to that part of the present Bill which
re!at alould be no diminution in the number of Members
A4r, Had it been so, he would have considered it a
impolitic measure; for lie had often seen most
nnportanA ss transacted in that House, When it would
bay to have counted :30 Members present; indeed
, •
)11e, ip = say fifteen. For that part of the present
e is thanks to the advisers of his Majesty. He
enlcrlat_ et present opportunity pass without stating his
a-""- ''Nfri county representation. He considered that it
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