The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-22 00:00:00

a Como-Imre Of that House, bu .hotts.hc it must
appear clearly to all that an equalization of the r.,le
shoo d b made. The supervision be proposed was this
—the number of unions in England and Wales was 592
under the Poor-law Amendment Act, and adding wale
which had beers created under a subsequent Act, the
number of uni!tns he would take to be 616. To every
eight of these he lin‘uld appoint a superiniendent, with
sslary of 6001. per annum, of wh ch it shooed be under"
stood 1004 was to go for travelling expenses.. To each
stiverintendi nt he would allow two clerks, at a salary of
1001., and he was confident that the' nork of the pour'
law could be satisfactorily discharged by this staff, aged
that, too, upon more justand poliiic principles. A saving
of 30,5601. for supervision we uld arise at once from this
arrangement. The abolition of the law of settlement
and the heavy law expenses, which it was the means
of entailing on parishes, would render this system not
only easy of application, but highly satisfactory in
its results, because free circulation would then be given
to labour, lands hitherto uncultivated would at once be
brought into cultivation, and the poor of the country,
from being a burden to it, would eventually become Is
real benefit to it, by being pro'luctively employed. Ile
felt himself called upon to speak to the great sufferings
and great wrongs inflicted on the poor. The poor man
out of work goes to the officer and asks for relief, and
the first question put to him is, " Have you applied for
labour ?" But there was a great fallacy in that. The,
man who, perhaps, had a wife and family in a state el
want, was subjected to the greatest hardship before re-
lief was given to him, under the operation of this sys•
tern. He applies, for instance, for relief, and is informed
that he must appear again before the board, before any
relief can be given to him. The board adjourns and meets
again jn a fortnight, meanwhile the poor man, requiring
relief and unable to obtain support, goes and breaks 3
window, is taken into custody by the police, committed
by the magistrate for the offence, and after a certain
time in confinement, comes out better fed and in better
condition. He bad no hesitation in saying that a system
fraught with so much evil was most vicious, and be
therefore implored the House to grant a Committee.
The pressure of the system was most unjust, and be
begged the House. if the Government were not disposed
to oo au) thing to cure so great an evil, to take the
matter into its own hands, and to give, at least, an an'
sorer to the destitute poor, that it desired to see estab-
lished a system more tqual, more just,and more humane.
The Noble Lord c included by reading, his motion.
Mr. Alderman SIONEY said, in rising to seconi the
motion, tie did so on grounds of justice, humanity, and
sound policy. He was enabled to chow, from the Par-
liamentary returns published last year, that there had
been, in 28 of the metropolitan parishes, an average in-
crease of 36 per cant, in the year 1848, over the eight
preceding years; and he found by the same returns that
the average increase of the rates of 28 manufacturing
towns in England, in the last year, was 84 per cent. over
the average of the eight preceding years. So, in like
manner, in the agricultural counties, twelve of which
paid 2s. 2d. and 3s. in the pound. He might give
another instance of the unequal operation of it it in the
parishes of St. Bride, and St. George, Hanover-square.
In St. Bride the assessment was 3s. in the pound, and
in the wealthy parish of St. George, Hanover square,
it was only 711. in the pound. Then several of their
rich establishments escaped the payment of Poor:
rates, from the circumstance of their being what
was termtd " extra p_arochial," while the poor
and the industrious in the vicinity were not so fortu-
nate. The Bank of England and the Royal Exchange
were cases or this sort, and came off ‘• scot free,'
The country was not satisfied why the people should r
one parish be subject to sin a:sessment of as. or 49. in the
pound, and find their neighbours were not assessed et
all. He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir It
Peel) was not in the House, as the ease to which he W 9
now about to direct attention, concerned him. While th,
a
borough of Tansworth, for instance, was fairly assessed'
its rateable value being 8001. a year, another part of 03:
Right Hon. Baronet's property, on which he built a 63.,
house, and which was turned to agricultural purpose'
was only assessed at 18s. 9d. Now, if justice was den::
Sir Robert Peel, instead of paying 18s. 9,1. in the )ear'
would have to pay 2001. How it was that a tax, "la
was a national tax, could be assessed on such uneclu
terms appeared io him and to the country most straliged
The sphere in which he (Mr. Alderman Sidney) o:l°Ye
gave him much opportunity of being iniormed as to the
unequal operation of this tax. The shopkeepers, and
operative classes, in large towns, felt the unequal 9i if,
severe pressure of the rates, and complained bitterly o
the burden falling with peculiar hardship on them. So,
in like manner, in the agricultural districts; in some
parishes, where there were wealthy proprietors and l
poor, those proprietors scarcely paid any rates. a,
had that day heard a case wherein a poor Yeoman whohad a husband and four sons engaged in the glass Ina?ti
facture, but who, owing to the importations of foreign
glass, were thrown out of work, and she was, in cons©•
queue, unable to pay her rates, three. quarters of which
she was in arrear of, and would gladly pay under_ other
circumstances. In addition to the cases which be bad
e
at
directed attention to, there were six poor th
parishes in
City, which were assessed, some at 2s. sd. and some e
3s. 4d. in the pound. He thought, is
circumstances, that he had male out a case for invest
those
looking at all
gation. The Hon. Member then dirt c-ed the attention
of the House to the circumstance of a great number of
manufacturers engaged in the camlet trade in Norwich,
being thrown out or employment by that trade having
fatten off; and while such was the condition of the in;
da-trioo. operative. the poor rate in Norwich was 5s and
6a. Bd. in the pound. In Leeds the poor-rates were Si•
milar in their oppressive amount. Be would not•cletain
the House longer than to say that the question was not
confined to trading, manufacturing., or agricultural
interests; and that the poor ought to be considered in
relation to it with feelings of humanity. He considered
it was the duty of the Li gislsture to see that so great a
burthern should not fall unequally, and with those feel-
ings he begged leave to second the motion of the Noble
Lord.
Mr. BAINES hoped his Honourable Friend who had
just sat dawn would not suppose him to be guilty of any
disre.pect towards him, i+ he declined to follow him ins
long reply to all that he had stated. The questions Of
the law Of settlement and removal would of themselves
raise discus ion. Neither did he propose to follow the
Noble Lord into the whole question of the opera-
don of the poor-law enactment, or the misconduct of the
poor-law officers. Those were questions which of thee:
selves formed in each case, a very important subject.
The proposal made by the Noble Lord on that occa-
sion was not that of which he had previously given
notice. The former notice of motion was, that the
charge for tho poor should be placed on the revenue
of the country. Subsequently the motion of the_
Noble Lord was to charge the support of the poor urn_
the income of the country, and on the 7th June
that motion wars again changed, and it suss
only on Monday last that the motion of the Noble
.Lord
had assumed the shape it now presented. But utle°
doubt( dly the objeet of the Noble Lord was to place th
,
permanent charge of the poor on the revenue of toe
o
country.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the House were to 4,
into a Committee of Inquiry on this subject, it woelu
cast a doubt as respected the present mode by which the,
poor of the country could be supported, being the best
that could be devised far that purpose, and as he could
net assent to any such doctrine. and as he believed the
country was opposed to any alteration of the existing
system by which the poor of the country were 'pai
tallied, he must meet the present proposition witt a di-
rect negative. The Noble Lord must recollect that two
years ago a Committee sat to inquire into the very
matters which he now proposed should be investigated
—that they had reported, and that the whole question
had been canvassed in the fullest and most complete
manner. This being so, where, he asked, was the ne-
of a similar inquiry being instituted now? If
the Noble Lord had come forward with a specific ro-
position, founded on the facts elicited nn the occasion
to which he alluded. the matter would his different—they
would then know what they had to deal with, and they'
could decide resis cting it upon its merits. He looked upon
the proposition of the Noble Lord, to place the charge Of
supporting the poor upon the general revenue of the
community, as being dangerous in the highest degree
to the interests of the country, and as tending to prejtv
dice both ratepayers and paupers. When the Noble
Lord proposed, as one of his means to carry out his
object, to get rid of all local self•government, he_fer.
nished one very strong and conclusive argument against
his own proposition. Nothing had a more salutary
effect upon the national character than this habit of the
people-to interest themselves in matters connected with
the concerns of the several districts iu which they re-
sided. If the proposal of the Noble Lord were to suc-
ceed, one of two things must arise ; either that the funds
of the country, intended for the support of the poor,
should be administered by local boards, or by the Go-
vernment itself. What would be the cons, quence of these
funds being administered by local boards ? If the boards
were honest, they would not dispense these funds with a
due regard to their nature. The pressure of producing
the money for the maintenance of the poor not being di-
rectly upon them, they wsuld dispose of it in a manner
regardless of results, and there would be no means of pre-
venting an undue expenditure of the public money. But
in the event of these local boards being eon:m(10o of dis-
how st persons, it would be very easy for them to
practice the most monstrous system of jobbing
pnstble. Then what was
poor in
i g thela
the alternative of this ?
Why, that you were to get rid of self-government, and
the
place the whole of maintenance of the
hands of the Governmente.antt
Now,
character
the uhieo n
against
a whole.
ein.
thought there were
objections of
-ar-
rangement.
the first place it effected a general change in the system
under which the poor were maintained; and secondly, it
Laovoehr.y then,aog
plucked up by the roots the valuable principleof lf
se -go-
vernment. From the earliest period in the histor of
this country down to the present day the charge y •
of main-
taining the poor had been
which the poor existed. Believingplaced upon the locality in
that any charge of
that system would have a dangerous effect upon the
country, he would meet
gative —(Hear.) the motion by a direct ne-•
Mr. MACKINNON deprecated
the proposition of the
Noble Lord, and said if it were fully carried it would
place the Noble Lord, who prided himself as being de-
scended from the Plantagenets, in the position of teirg
nothing more than a humble follower of Ledru
Rollin and M. Proudhon. The present system of
supporting the poor in their respective localities,
induced those who were obliged to find the means for
that support to keep down the rates, and to limit
the number of the poor. If this chuck did not
exist, the result would be that this country would
be overrun by paupers. Population was only kept down
by morality, or by vice and misery. He regretted to be
obliged to feel that if it were not for the misery that ex-

isted in many parts of this country, the population would
be so great that it would be impossible to supply the
wants of those who would require support as paupers.
He admizt,,d the disci, parley be ween the e, It roes io
many tie m• troi;olitali parishes as Fore I.l,refl with
those charged in the pariah of Sr. George's, Hanover-
square. But this could not be helped, and the only way
to keep down a pauper populoticli no tp JAM p pot