The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-09 00:00:00

have a Committee up stairs. With unions in Clare and
other pl aces Irving 18s. 4,1. in the pound, it was quite
clear that the landed property of Ireland was not en ugh
to supp,,rt the poverty of Ireland. He thought Ire-
land would have b. en in a bettor state if the Poor-law
hal not been introduced; for, although he did not mean
to say that the Poor-law had entirely caused the evils
under which that country was now suffering, he be-
lieved it had greatly aggravated them. He considered
that the Government were bound to take care that relief
was administered in the most economical way possible,
but under the existing system the expenditure had been
most wasteful. One of the burdens ny which Irish pro-
perty was oppressed was the repayment of advances for
the works undertaken during the :amine. In 1846 no
less than 4,800,000/. was appropriated to relief works;
but, from a calculation he h •(1 made, he found that, sup-
posing every person employed received 10d. a day
(which was much above the average, many of the per-
sons employed being women and children, who received
a less amount), and allowing ten per cent. for the ex-
penses of administration, only about 3,730,0001. would
have been expended, thus leaving more than 1,000,0001.
unaccounted for. He said then that if proper care had
been taken in the conduct of the relief works, and in the
distribution of money under the poor-law, the property
of Ireland would not have suffered from the burdens by
which it was now oppressed. He considered that they,
ought to make an entire chaeig,e in the present system,
and to give up all thoughts of administering the poor-law
in Ireland as it was administered in this country.
Mr. OSBORNE said the Secretary for Ireland (Sir
W. Somerville) had opposed the amendment because he
thought it would have the effect of repealing the present
Irish poor-law, but it be (Mr. Osborne) could believe
that it would have that effect, he would support it with
even greater good will than he was now prepared to do.
—(Hear, hear.) He was not opposed to a poor-law for
Ireland, but he regard-'d the existing law as a piece of
ill-digested legislation, totally unsuited to the habits of
the people, and most prejudicial to the country. He
considered the present law inefficient for its avowed pur-
poses, inasmuch as it did nut support the peor, but
" makes us poor indeed." The Right lion. Baronet (Sir
W. Somerville) had stated that Ireland was suffering
from a three years' famine, but would that Right lion.
Gentleman say that, in the even: of the famine continu-
ing, as he (Mr, Osborne) feared it would do, the present
poor-law, or, indeed, any poor-law, would effectually
meet the destitution which existed? The Right Ho-
nourable Baronet had said that they were bound to
do all in their power to assist Ireland in her pre-
sent situation; but he (Mr. Osborne) maintained that
neither that house nor the Government had done all they
could do to counterbalance the great evils rife is that
country—not, he was ready to admit, from want of dis-
position, but from want of knowledge of the real circum
stances of the country. The [lon. Member for Water-
ford bad endeavoured to show that the inerea,,e of crime
in Ireland had been dependent upon the non-working of
the poor-law, and to connect the evictions in that
country with the establishment of the poor-law; but he
(Mr. Osborne) thought that if he could show that a
system was at present existing in. Ireland under which
crime had increased, the poor had been neglected, and
agriculture had been debased, and that such a system
was countenanced by that House, the House was bound
to apply an immediate remedy. He believed he would
be able to show them that there was a proportion of the
rental of Ireland amounting to above 1,500,000/.—the
rental of the whole province of Connaught—which was
at present placed under a system that prevented money
from being laid out in improvements; and if he
showed them that land was worse tilled and that
crime was most prevalent where that system existed,
he thought they would have nu excuse for not
endeavouring to remedy these evils. The Committee
now sitting to inquire into the operation of the Irish
poor-law had thought proper also to make an inquiry
into the circumstances of the estates under the manage
meut of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and he be-
lieved be could prove that there WAS an intimate con-
nexion between these estates and the burden of poverty
which had obliged Parliament to pass an amended poor-
I law for Ireland. lie had no wish to undervalue the Bill
which had been brought in this session by the able Soli
citor-General, for he believed the principle of that Bill
to be good, but he thought it was a delusion to expect
that that Bill would have any immediate effect in reliev-
ing the property of Ireland or in setting the people to
work. A very popular theme in that House was abuse
of the Irish proprietors. All eves were open
to the faults of that class, while few hearts
felt for their misfortunes. Now, he thought it
strange that persons who exhausted a copious
vocabulary of abuse upon Irish landlords should'
altogether except the largest proprietors in Ire
land the Court of Chancery. Every gentleman
who had been in Ireland, if he had passed through a
district where unuoial poverty
was apparent, and asked-
to whom the property belonged, would, he had nodoubt, state that he had been told it was " under
the courts," the meaning being that it was under the
dmaaynsagageom
the
et
Right
fg
ht
th Cy. w
oOrrLihly f(
sa
r Hew.
Peel) had used these remarkable words:—" All your
measures for drainage, for local improvements, for in-
crease of fisheries, for emigration—all will be ineffectual
unless you can cure those monstrous evils arising out of
the condition of landed property in Chancery. If you
can relieve these estates from the control of Chancery,
you will do more for the advancement of Ireland than by
any other measure you can adopt." He (Mr. Osborne)
concurred in that opinion. They were all agreed that
the social regeneration of Ireland did not depend upon a
poor-law, but upon placing the people on the soil and
giving them employment. This was clearly seen by Sir
E. Sugden, one of the best Lord Chancellors this
country ever sent to Ireland; but even ho was de:'eated
is his attempts to rectify tte system of the Court of
Chancery. What was the system pursued in that
' court? Property was thrown into Chancery, and the
ownership was vested in the Court, ostensibly for the
benefit of the creditor, but actually to the disadvantage
of the owner and of the country. The Court appointed
a receiver, who hal nothing to do but receive the rents.
It was not expected that the receiver should have any
knowledge of agriculture, or that he should even visit
the estates. So long as he could screw the greatest
amount of rent out of the tenants, he was qualified for
his office. The tenants were served with notice to pay
their rents to the receiver, who had a poundage of 5
per cent. upon all he collected, and who was not obliged
to account to a Master in Chancery till fifteen months
after the passing of his last accounts. Indeed, the
motto of the receiver was, "Rem; quocunque mode rem."
All references were made to the Master, and the ex-
penses were charged to the estate, to the great detri-
ment of the owner. When leases expired, or tenants
were ejected, everything was referred to the Master, and
a more fraudulent system than that under the courts it
was almost impossible to conceive. The receivers, when
appointed, were unable to lay out money on improve
ments without referring to the Master, and then the
the Master was unable to warrant such expenditure.—
(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member hero men-
tioned, in reference to the management of estates "under
the coutts," the particulars of a number of cases, with
the view of showing the abuses which existed under
that system, observing that it was intima'ely con-
nect, d with the pour-law, for as long as the estates
remained under the present system of receivership, ha
bell( ved that no poor-law could work sarsfactorily to
the landlord or to the tenant, Idhneudhs ittshhoeepei
asntmiaotin,eusmnrtoe thanmroefai
nt
remained
d
unimproved e
m
one sixth of the rental of Ireland was " under the
courts," and the cost of obtaining permission to lay out
m
the poor unemployed. The poor-rates
,ined
ap
nor
d out o
v e—m(Hen tesa re.
) were always high where the estates were under receivers,
otiinnmeepyyros is
vn eld improvements
and in one district where the system prevailed (we be-
lieve the Hon. Member mentioned Skibbereen), he stated
as a proof of the extreme peverty which had ex,sted,
that 600 deceased persons had been interred without
coffins in two holes. Consequently, under this vile and
iniquitous system the landlords were ruined and the te-
nants were thrown, like dead dogs, coffin less into holes.
The Hon. Member Also referred to a return which had
been presented to the House, by which he found that
among the receivers therein mentioned connected with
tne Irish Court of Exchequer there was a certain num-
ber of farmers, shopkeepers, merchants, and 400 gen-
tlemen—the latter term meaning in Ireland men
who had no available way of getting their livelihood
(Laughter.) It way no wonder, then, that " under the
courts" the estates and the tenantry were in their pre-
sent deteriorated condition. Many of the receivers were
of the feminine gender, but they appeared to be better
receivers than those of the male sex, for though living
from the spot, they allowed less arrears.—(Laughter.)
Many, also, were clergymen, and of those one lived in
Devonshire; and this was the way in which Irish estates
were managed.—(l-lear, hear.) The Hon. Member also,
as a proof of the pernicious results of the receivership
system, stated that some of the tenants of Mr. Roe, iu
Tipperary, assembled together and entered into a plot
to murder that unfortunate gentleman, upon the
speculation that as his next heir was a minor, the es-
tate would fall under the management of the Court of
Chancery, and they might thereby avoid the punctual
payment of the rent. This, then, was a plague-epot
which required to be removed. The present system of
receivership had been denounced no later than last April
by the presentable Master of the Rolls in Ireland as a dis-
grace to the country, observing that the country never
would prosper until it was removed root and branch,
and the management of the estates placed under some
responsible department. He had hoped that the Go-
vernment would have granted a Cemcnittee upon this
subject of the management of estates " under the
Courts" in Ireland, and he pledged himself that, if Isucha
Committee were appointed, a plan should be submitted
to it for the removal of the evils he had adverted to, and
holding out a better prospect for the tenantry and pea-
santry, who were now placed under the horrible control
connected with the present systern.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. NAPIER, hoped he might be allowed to trespass
for a short time upon the attention of th. House—(Hear,
hear)—with reference to a system which he felt was
dragging down the country—(fiear, hear)—convinced as
he was that the subject to which the Hun. Member (Mr.
Osborne) had addressed himself, while one of paramount
and pressing importance, was one which presented the
oppertunity of doing very great practical good for Ire-
land by a simple and rapid process ; and be had to im-
plore the House not to let this session pass without
adopting alter a short inquiry—only a short one would
be irTe.isary—such a measure as would remedy the
existing grievance.—(Elear.) Upwards of 2,000.000/. c.f
the rental of that country was now under receivers, and
every week was aiding to the proportion of the pro-
perty es.f Ireland placed under their hands. By a law
passed in 1835, power was given to a judgment creditor
to obtain the appointment of .a
receiver. Judgments now
affeeted
• ttel property; and now, inch by inch over
the country, wherever a receiver could be fastened, they
were to be found, like flies upon a corrupt carcass, not
merely breaking up the relation between landlord and
tenant, but inflicting moral and social evils such as hardly
could be estimated. Instead of this, without any ad-
vance of public money, and by the mere institution of a
better control, that portion of Ireland might be an

exempla to the rest.—(Hear, hear.) The usual course
of things was t` is: —a year's interest, being iu arrear, a
Lill was filed by the creditor; after the answer was in
there would corne an applicetion for the appointment of
a receiver.. The proprietor expecting, it not certein
rein, never again to get into the property in any desire
bie position, would etave off the appointment as well as
he could, and, during that time, would be engaged in
getting in all the rent he could; and the tenants often
having a feeling of respect for him and his family, and
perhaps pitting his difficulties, would combine with him
so that he would get accruing rents and promissory
notes, ! nd all sorts of arrangements made with him, and
the rect leer would come to a property apparently pros-
pering, without retire in arrear; bur, in reality, he would
tied an embarrassed tenantry—a tenamry more or le-s
ifemeralized, end ripe for hostile litigation--(Hear.)
Let the House mirk the natural result. Every one was
interested in the due management of property in Ireland,
and tl,e poor-law made a man more than ever interested
in the management of his neighbour's property.—
(Hear, hear.) The receiver's business was to collect as
much money as he could. If " property had its duties"
who was to discharge those duties in regard to all this
property transterr d into Chancery? Under the osten-
sible pla of asserting the rights of creditors, in what a
condition these estates were plecedl—(llear, hear.)
When Lord Chancellor Sudden Care to Ireland he wee
startled et this stet*, of things; DO man eie r del so much
in the way of intrmluc'sig sour d reforms into the ad-
ministration of justrce—(Hear)—but the rules which
he framed had been meee or less evaded.—(Hear.) To
be appointed receiver, a pity must give security for two
years' rental.and when the estate was at all large this might
be made a matter of great difficulty; but the plaintiff
had generally some one whom ho wished to serve,
or there was some one ready to enter into an un-
derhaud agreement with the plaintiff's solicitor;
and a clever solicitor and a passive receiver could easily
contrive to expend the rents in the management of the
estate, and without laying out anything in improvements.
—(Hear, hear.) Tire receiver had fifteen months to ac-
count in, and altogether it was about three years before
the creditor touched a farthing of his interest.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, surely the rights of creditors ought not to
supersede the primary duties of property—(Hear. hear)
—but this system delayed the creditor, injured at once
the
.owner and the public, and did good only to those in-
terested in an expensive management of the estate. If a
receiver did anything beyond the mere collection of the
rents, it was liable to be overhauled; and there were al-
wayS -small creditors ready to go before the Master upon
such biatters, with the estate liable for costs.—(Hear,
hear:l If so large a portion of the property of the
country was to be taken for the sake of enforcing the
rights of creditors, surely the Court of Chancery ought
to Naive the powers of an owner, and this property ought
to be managed as under a system of good private
agency.—(Hear, bear.) An act was passed to encourage
leases by reducing the stamp to Is., but it only applied
to leases for a certain term, and every lease under the
Court.of Chancery was effectually excluded, nor could
such, 'a lease be obtained at a less cost than 71. The
receiver had to give the two years' security because of
his being allowed to hold over the money for so long ;
and 'ten important part of the profits of his (lace con-
sistsd in his turning the money to his private purposes.
—(Hear, hear.) A very experienced officers of the
Rolls' Court was opinion that property under the Court
did rnot upon an average yield more than two-thirds,
frequehtly not more than one-half, what it paid under
the owner's hands; arid the Master of the Rolls slated
that it appeared by returns that, from 1841 to 1843 (the
amount would be larger if the return were carried later),
an arrear of a quarter of a million of money had arisen
front the bad management of estates by receivers.—
(Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Napier) trusted, now that the
Heirse had -got into this suttject, they would not part
with. it until they had done something which would
encourage hope and confidence in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear) The Honourable Member for Middlesex bad
mentioned that there were two classes of receivers, male
and female, and that the properties under the latter
were letter manneed than the properties under the
farmer. He (Mr. Napier) imagined that the latter cases
would be found to be chiefly those either of minors
or 11.friarics. Those properties were generally netter
rn.apag, d than other properties, because the Court of' Chan-
cery, had much more ample powers in such cases than
in others He thought that what was wanted to remedy
the-existing grievances was to give the Court of Chan-
ceral larger powers, and to introduce a new machinery
for the purpose of putting those powers into execution.
--:(lietr, hear.) From art he had gathered from persons
ticit-4;:dtenversent with this subject he believed the correct
course to follow would be to appoint a person as master
receiver, whose exclusive attention should be devoted to
thilarticular subject, and to have under him a num-
ber 'district receivers, wholly independent of the par-
ties interested, who should reside in the localities where
the properties were situated, and, keep a superintendence
over and cheek upon the management of the particular
estates. He thought it would be useful also to cause
the district receivers to make a return every week of
the money they had collected; that there should be an
aide where the books should be kept open for the in-
spection of all the parties interested; an i that there
should be half-yearly accounts rendered by the district
receivers to the master receiver, who should also have
power to make inquiries from time to time, so as by
these means to bring the estates as neatly as possible
into the same condition as they would probably be in if
the inheritors were themselves invested with full power
to manage the properties as beneficially as possible.—
(Hear.) He (Mr. Napier) was very averse to encourage
the people to look to the Legislature for everything;
but still he held that, if they could, they were
bound to remedy a great and practical evil like the one
then under consideration; and, for that purpose, he con-
sidered that a short inquiry would be useful. He had
no doubt, from all he had heard un the subject, and from
the conferences he had had with various parties in Ire-
land, that if a short inquiry were now instituted they
would be enabled, before Parliament separated, to pass
a measure which, under God, would greatly ameliorate
the condition of Ireland, and help them to grapple more
successfully with those scenes of misery which, if they
could not prevent, they ought at all events, to do their
best to mitiaate.—(Flear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—I rise for the purpose of saying
only a few words upon this subject, because I have no
objection to make to the proposal of the Hon. Member
for an inquiry into this subject.—(Hear, hear.) I
think it is a subject of the highest importance. I think
that the evils which have been so ably pointed out by the
Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne), as well as
by the lion. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) who
followed him, are such as to make it most desirable to
apply a remedy, so far as we can at least, to the evils
which they have described.—(Hear, hear.) I should
likewise say that the Lard Chancellor of Ire-
land has fur some time past paid great attention to
this subject—(Hear, hear)—and that it is certainly no
fault of his that we have not introduced ,a measure on
the subject. He has traced a plan which, if a Com-
mittee be appointed, would, as detailed by him, be a fit
subject for inquiry by them. It is a plan which, while on
the one hand we thought it of great advantage, on the
other seemed to us to be liable to grave objections. It
has, there‘ore, been under our consideration, with the
'view of try ing te remedy these objections, and I think it
would be a very desirable question to go before ,s Com-
mittee, because the reasons for and against the plan
could then be properly sifted, and the objections to it, if
possible, removed. The plan suggested by the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland does not materially differ from that
which has been sketched by the lion. and Learned Gen-
tleman (Mr. Napier) ; but I can hardly go along with
him in expecting from the appointment of public and re-
sponsible receivers that we can obtain the benefit which
is obtained by having proprietors residing on their own
properties, and being able to attend to the improvement
tierefere, th 4.t one object of the Committee should
of those properties themselves,--(Hear, hear.) I rather
think, t
be to inquire whether this system of appointing re-
ceivers to facilitate the charging of properties witty debt
has not been carried too far under the law as it at present
exists.—(Hear.) I own I consider myself, that although
it is a principle which appears perfectly just, and which
no doubt is just, that if a person has incurred a debt his
estate should be held liable for it, yet I think the princi-
ple is carried too far, and leads to the injury of all per-
sons living upon the estate, in consequence of that estate
becoming the property of the creditor, and at the same
time that creditor not getting the management of the
estate. I think that no advantage that can arise from the
eppointment of a public receiver can compensate for the
disedventege of not having a proprietor with his hands
free ehi afire to ma-rage bus own estate. However, that
is a point which will properly come under the consider-
ation eir the Committe, if appointed. I think that al-
though this subject does not immediately belong to the
question before the House, yet it is so intimately con-
nected with it, and the House has received such valuable
information from the Hon. Member for Middlesex and the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin,
that tthink there is nothing to regret in the discussion
that has taken place—(Hear, hear)—and if the Hon.
Gentleman will more at any time for the appointment of
Cominittee I will certainly be ready to support the
motion; and my Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-
Geneiel,- who has introduced some measures in respect
to this subject, will be ready to give every assistance in
his poWer in framing such measures as the House will
be likely'to approve on lam of opinion that we ought
to aim not so much at one great measure, but at different
measure,
bearing
fm the evils under which she is now
suffering.—(Hear, hear.) on the same object, namely, to
re scl I
rc• 1 a alln d from
Mr. F. FRENCH, after complaining that the question
before' -(he House had been evaded in this discussion, q
scussion, and
that no answer had been given to the allegations con.
tained" in the motion of the Hon. Member for Water-
ford, proceeded to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Tamworth had laid great stress upon
statement relative to certain evictions which were said
to have lately cecurred in Ireland. For his own part,
he (Mr. French) deubted whether those evictions had
taken place •
at nil, for it certainly was not the first time
that reports had been spread of evictions by landlords
which had turned out, upon inquiry, to have been a
,
sp cies of Lynch-law, executed by the people them-
selves, used which the landlords had had nothing to do
with. Besides, even if the reports. respecting evic-
tions were true, it was not fair to blame the landlords for
what was more just attributable to legislation; and the
Right llon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth ought to
have been the last men to take notice of such things,
knowing', as he must, that their legislation was responei-
ble for them.

Sir R. PEEL-- I cannot silently acquiesce in the cen-
sure which has just been cast upon me by the Hon.
Nlembei.' I have nothing to regret except it be that I
believe I rather understated than overstated the csse.—
(Fhar. hear) I cerainly cannot charge myself wi!h
.o the parties to whom I referred, for on look-
ing agpin at
,the papers I find that I painted the ease in
faint Ind fi-ehle colours.—(Cheers.) When I have
thought,the Irish landlords had had injustice done to
them--ar.td I think thiy have had injustice done to them
iti bomb -respects—l gave not beim slow to do them jus-
tice—cgeiir, hear)—but I must lay that Irish gentlemen