The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-26 00:00:00

CHANCERY REFORM.

The LORD CHANCELLOR held in his hand one of
the two Bills which he had gone into at great length on
Tuesday night last, and he should ill repay the courtesy
with which their Lordships had listened to him if, he
were to say one word mere than was absolutely necesary.
Upon the former occasion he had omitted to state, that
although he had a confident opinion that the law of the
adjudication of bankruptcy was not on as good a footing
:as it might be placed, yet it was not at present
the object of this Bill to alter the law in that respect, but
!merely to transfer it to another.tribunal. His Lordship
Then detailed the mode in which a commission of bank-
rut.tcy was now sued out, the proceedings in which were
generally behind the bankrupt's back, and the most respec •
table merchant in London might be declared a bankrupt if
any creditor of his, to the amount of one hundred
pounds, thought fit to make an ex-parte affidavit
of an act of bankruptcy. To that course of proceeding it
was necessary that some check should be put, and be had
no doubt that when the new tribunal should be formed,
the experience which they must acquire in the course of
their judicial duties, would suggest some remedy which
-would do away with the facilities which now existed in
;striking a docket. .

Lord LYNDHURST, after complimenting the Noble
and Leas ned Lord on the able speech with which he had
introduced his measures, and observing that time for con-
aideratioat must necessarily be given before any Noble Lord
could fully state his sentiments respecting those measures,
wished to state in what points he at once agreed with the
Noble and Learned Lord, and in what points he wished to
reserve his opinion until the details of the measures should
be before their Lordships. He was sure their Lordships
had had too much experience of him to fear that he would
occupy any considerable portion of their time. He re-
peated, that be did not mean to argue the question, but
only to advert to tl.ose points in which he concurred with
the Noble and Learned Lord, and those on which be must
remain in doubt until the details were before the House.
With respect to the first measure, the Bill which stood for
coo,m;e•eant «bat day. he entirely agreed with the prin-
ciple of the measure as introduced by the Noble and
Learned Lord. Of the details, of course he could not be
aware ; but there would be ample time to consider them
hereafter. Soon after he (Lord Lyndhurst) had the
honour of holding the situation which the Noble ar.d
Learned Lord now held, he had commenced several amend-
ments with respect to the superintendence of the Com-
mittee of Lunatics, which he was glad the Noble and
Learned Lord bad adopted. With respect to the
second provision of the Bill, he thought the Noble and
Learned Lord had acted wisely and discreetly in retain-
ing the Commissions. It was frequently necessary that
inquiries should be made in the neighbourhood of
lunatics, to which inquiries those Commissions
were the most competent. It sometimes happened, how-
ever, that cases of great difficulty occurred ; while he
(Lord Lyndhurst) had the honour to hold the Great See,
thsre were three or four of such cases. The Noble and
Learned Lord had adverted to one of Lord Portsmouth.
There bad been also the eases of Davis, Brand, &c. For
the purpose of preserving the order and sobriety and de-
COYUM of the proceedings in these cases, an authority
higher than that of the Commissioners seemed requisite.
He had, therefore, applied to the Noble Lord, the Chief
Justice of the Court of King's Bench, to ascertain whe-
ther it would not be practicable that one of the Judges
should act in concert with the Commission ; but difficul-
ties manifested themselves in the execution of such a plan,
which induced him to abandon it. Undoubtedly he had
thought that if a single Judge could he commissioned for
that purpose, it would be very advantageous ; but after
the most careful search, not a single circumstence could
be found of such a measure. It had been his intention,
therefore, as the Noble and Learned Lord had said, to
propose that in any case in which, in the opinion of the
Great Seal, a Judge ought to preside, power should be
given to include him in the Commission. He was not
acquainted with the details of the measure ; but he Ap-
proved of the principle, and recommended it to their Lord-
ships' adoption. Then, let us see what his Noble and
Learned Friend meant to do with respect to the Court of
Chancery. Although his Noble and Learned Friend was
vita justified in making the long statement which he made
in opening his views to their Lordships, yet the outline of
his measures was short. The first point to which he would
advert, under that head, related to the mode of paying the
Masters in Chancery. That system had occupied his
attention, and he bad endeavoured to alter it, with the
assistance of the Master of the Rolls, but he was met at all
points by the fees of the Masters; so that he found it
impossible to effect his object by his own authority; and ,
he had therefore brought a Bill into this House for the
purpose. That Bill was approved by their Lordships and
passed this House, hut it was not so fortunate in the other
House, where it was strongly opposed and dropped, But
he took no merit to himself for that, for it was merely car-
rying into effect one of the measures recommended by the
Court of that very Commission whose report bad been so
much abused, and so little perused or understood, Its
object was to remove a barrier which stood in the way ot.
other improvements, and he was glad that his Noble and
Learned Friend had taken the same course; and he hoped
that the measure now supported by his Noble and
Learned Friend in this Ilouse, and by his colleagues in
the other House, would be attended with better success
than the one to the same effect which be had proposed.
Another improvement which his Noble ,and Learned
Friend had in view was the transfer of the business
of taxing costs from the Masters in Chancery to the
Six Clerks. That was one of the improvements
recommended by the Chancery Commission of 1826, and
it was one which he thoroughly approved, and hoped that
it would now be adopted by this and the other House;
and that what he had attempted in vain to carry into ex-
ecution would at length he effected. There was another
improvement under this branch of the subject which he
cordially approved, and which he had anticipated—he
meant ti,e alterations to be made in the practice of the
Registrar's Office of the Court of Chancery. He bad con-
sidered that subject along with that able and excellent
Judge the Master of the Ilona, with a view, if possible, to
get rid of the long rentals in decrees registered in the
Court of Chancery, forming an inessmbrance of paper
which had become one of the greatest nuisances of the
remedy,
Court. This he had it hi contemplation to
possible, in order that by getting rid of this,
well as
other evils, lie might remove the odium under which tha
Court of Chancery laboured. But here again ha was
met by the fees of the Registrar, and of the Copying
Clerks, which depended on the length of the decrees.
rive them of these fees by his
He had no right to deprive
own authority, and be was obliged to abandon the at-
tempt to abate the nuisance by his own authority.
He then brought a Bill for the purpose Into this House,

which was passed by their Lordships, but failed in
the other House. That too was one of the recommenda-
tions of the Chancery Commissioners of 1826, and he hoped
that his Noble and Learned Ft iend would have better suc-
cess than he bad, and that the improvement would, at
length, be carried which he had is vain endeavoured to
effectuate. These were the points on which he cordially
concurred with his Noble and Learned Friend. He now
came to those branches of his Not and Learned Friend's
general plan as to which he had his doubts, and on which
he forbore to give any opinion at present. But before
proceeding to the country in the discharge of his duties, he
felt it due to his Noble and Learned Friend, to their Lord-
ships, to the public, and to himself, to state the points on
which he had doubts, and the reasons for those doubts.
The first of these points was the alteration of the mode of
taking evidence in the Courts of Equity. His Noble and
Learned Friend had put this alteration in a very capti-
vating point of view in his opening speech; but he as.
sawed their Lordships that the matter was not without its
difficulties. When he came to preside in the Court
of Chancery, with all the prejudices of a common
lawyer, he thought that it would he easy to effect
an improvement in this respect. But on looking at
the matter more narrowly, he found, or thought that
Fhe found, great difficulties on the subject; and he,
with many others who had the same prejudices, began
to doubt the policy or expediency of altering the esta-
I lisped mode of taking evidence in Courts of Equity.
Several of the Members of the Chancery Commission of
1826 had begun their labours with precisely the same view
of the matter which he then entertained, and he might par-
ticularize the present Chief Justice of the Common Pleas,
Mr. Justice Littledale, Doctor Lushington, and Mr. Smith.
They thought at first as be thought, and were desirous to
substitute the common law method of taking evidence for
the mode at present established in Courts of Equity. They
attempted to bring over the rest of the Commissioners to
their views, and there was no point more anxiously and
thoroughly sifted and discussed by the Commissioners
than this was, and the result was an unanimous opinion
that the present mode of taking evidence in Courts of
Equity ought not to be deviated from. They saw the incon-
venience and disadvantages attending that method of taking
evidence, but they also saw, or thought they saw, that the
inconveniences and disadvantages which would be the con-
sequence of a change of method would be still greater, and,
upon the whole, they thought it better that there should
be no change. He did not mean to say positively that they
wire right in this view of the matter. Ile did not at pre-
sent argue the case. But he stated this as one of the grounds
of the doubt which existed in his mind as to whether this
part of his Noble and Learned Friend's arrangement could
be carried into effect with advantage. He did not state
it as a reason for decided opposition, but as a reason for
pausing and considering the matter further before he came
to a decided conclusion on the subject. When he had first
applied his mind to the consideration of the point, he had
found great difficulties in it. No doubt there were some
apparent absurdities in the mode of taking evidence in the
Court of Chancery, but he could tell their Lordships that
the Judge who presided in the Court of Chancery had very
seldom to decide a question upon a balance of evidence,
without that evidence having been before sifted in a Court
of Common Law. The cases occurred but rarely in which
the Lord Chancellor had to question upen a balance of
evidence ; and when the cases did occur, the practice was
to direct an issue to be tried in a Court of Law before a
Judge and Jury, who saw and heard the witnesses. It
must, therefore, be very seldom that a mistake in point of
fact could be committed in the Court of Chancery. The
great advantage of viva voce testimony was, that the wit-
ness was seen and heard by the Judge and Jury, but all
this advantage would be, in a great measure, lost, when
the evidence was taken before one Judge, and the cause
was to be tried by another, and yet this would he the case
when witnesses would be examined on his Noble and
Learned Friend's plan. Counsel and solicitors would, of
course, in most cases, attend on each side to examine and
cross-examine, and this would be attended with great ex-
pence and embarrassment to the parties. And then be
would ask his Noble and Learned Friend, whether his own
experience had not taught him the very defective mode in
which a case was brought before a Common Law Court
by the report of the Nisi, Prins Judge, although it was
the best shape in which the evidence could be brought
before the Court? For his own part, the report of the
Judge, read on motions fur a new trial, had often ap-
peared to him little better than unintelligible jargon, until
the case was explained by the observations of those who
had been present at the trial ; and yet this would be the
situation of the Court of Chancery with respect to the evi-
dence when taken on his Noble and Learned Friend's plan.
Why did he say this ? His reason was merely to show
the grounds of the doubts which he at present enter
tained, whether it would not be better to leave the Court
c.f Chancery to direct issues as at present, when the case
depended on a balance of testimony, than to substitute a
re:ular and exclusive tribunal for the trial of issues for the
Court of Chancery. There was another consideration
connected with this part of the subject well deserving of
attention. One great object in Courts of Equity was to
prevent the evidence for the plaintiff being seen by the de-
fendant until he hail closed his own evidence in defence;
and the purpose of this obviously was to deprive the de-
fendant of the means of making a fraudulent or fabri-
cated defence. Courts of Equity were so strict in this
respect, that before the Court would consent on any
ground to enlarge publication, the person applying for
that enlargement was compelled to swear that ,he
was unacquainted with the evidence taken on the
other side. Now it would be quite impossible that
this advantage could be preserved when the evidence
should be taken on his Noble and Learned Friend's plan,
the investigation in most cases could not be concluded in
a single day. There must be an adjournment, and the
defendant would thus be aware of the evidence on the other
side in time to enable him to set up a fabricated defence;
and of this opportunity, if he was a dishonest man, which
defendants, unfertunately, too often were, he would not fail
to avail himself. This was an important part of his Noble
and Learned Friend's plan ; but he was not, at present,
Ferrer' to give it his full concurrence, and he stated the
difficulties attending it merely to show why he could not
accede to that part of the plan until he had seen the de-
tails, and had further considered the whole subject. He
should be glad if, in the result, be could agree with his
Noble and Learned Friend ; but if he should feel himself
compelled to differ from him, he wauld state the grounds
pf dissent fairly and frankly, and without any party or per-
eonsiderations. These questions about the Court of
Chancery bad been too often mixed up with patty and
personal feelings and considerations.—(Hear, hear.) But
away with such feelings and considerations in treating of
these subjects, which were in reality, no party matters.
Such questions ought to be treated with the utmost frank•
ness and candoor, for all of them could only have one object
in view—and that was tp put the Court upon the best fent-
ing as a tribunal for the administration of justice. Having
said this much on the subject of the mode of taking evidence,
he would, with their Lordships' permission, say a few words
on another important branch of his Noble and Learned
Friend's plan, and that was the alteration in the machi-
nery of the Bankruptcy Tribunal, which it was hoped
would hasee a bearing backward on the business in Chan-
cery, and diminish the labour of the Judge who presided
there. That branch of the subject might be divided into
two parts. The administration in bankruptcy was en-
trusted in Lorninn, and within forty miles round it, to
seventy Commistionere, formed into fourteen lists ; and
the administration in bankruptcy in the country was en-
trusted to Commissioners occasionally appointed for the
purpose. The Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon; who had
been his predeceeeor on the Woolsack, had given much the
same character of the country Commissioners as his Noble
and Learned Friend now on the Woolsack had given of
the Coneenieeioners generally ; and therefie-e it hed been
Lord Eldon's obliact to transfer commissions of bankruptcy
as much as possible from the emantry to the London Corn,.
missi,oners. He (Lord Lyndhurst) was satisfied that al-
most all the abuses that prevailed in the administration of
this branch of law were confined to the country Commie-
aions. This was a conviction to which all his experience
and observation in the Court of Chancery had hd him ;
and he had, in the rouse of the last Session, stated the re-
medy which, in his opinion, ought to be applied—and that
wag, to follow up the plan recommended by Lord Rosslyn,
by establishing permanent Commissions in the great towns
in the country, in the same manner as in the metropolis.
His Noble and Learned Friend, as he understood him,
meant to retain these Commissions, and to appoint lists
for places beyond forty miles from London ; and he was
glad that his Noble and Learned Friend had so far
concurred with him, and he thought that his Noble and
Learned Friend had therein acted wisely and prudently.
A great deal had been said out of doors about the London
Commissioners, who had been made the subject of much
abuse. That some young and rather inexperienced men
were appointed, amp! that some men retained these appoint-
ments after being far advanced in age, was certainly true.
He knew and admitted it ; but at the same time lie must
say that the Commissioners generally, and as a 'Jody, were
as able men and as good lawyers as any in the profession ;
and were, to say the least, in that respect fully on a foot-
ing with those who insulted and reviled them. He al-
luded to a petition presented a short time ago to this
House relative to the Commissioners, in which the
grossest,cearges
were made
lie was convinced, the most unfounded
against them. He would • say nothing
las to the meeting at which that petition was agreed to,

because, accorJing to the newspaper reports, he himself
hail been abused at that meeting. The duties of the
Commissioner, might he divided into two parts—the
administrative or ministerial, and the judicial. As
to the Ministerial duties, there could not be a het-
ter tribunal for the performance of that part of
the duties than that of the London Commissioners—
at least that was his opinion. It was a tribune,
also, which 'readily adapted itself to any quantity of busi-
ness. Sometimes, as was well known, there was a great
deal of business in bankruptcy, and at other time! very
litt'e ; but this tribunal adapted itself easily to all circum.
stances, be the business more or less. Then as to the
judicial part of the duties, he was satisfied that, on the
whole, these had been well done—done with very great
diligence, ability, and intelligence. In support of this he
might refer to a very strong fact—the smallness of the
number of appeals from the decisions of the London Com-
missioners. The appeals were very few in proportion to
the business done; in these few appeals there were very
few reversals. He had inquired into the proceedings of
the third list during the three years and a half in which
lie held the Great Seal, and in all that time, out of 160
Commissions there was only one appeal, and even that ap-
peal was dismissed wish casts. It was merely by accident
that lie took this third list as the subject of inquiry, and
not from any idea the Commissioners composing it were
superior to those in the other lists. This was a strong
fact to show that the judicial duties were well performed.
He knew the answer that had been given to this at the
meeting to which he alluded. It was said that parties were
deterred by the expense of appeals. He had never found,
however, that in a suit in Chancery the parties were much
deterred from litigation by considerations of the expense,
and, in point of Let, they were not deterred for that reason,
in this instance, since there were abundance of appeals
from the judgments of the country Commissioners. Still
he did not mean positively to say that the business might
not be as well or better done in another way, and by an-
other tribunal. He merely stated these things as a reason
for reserving his opinion as to that part of his Noble and
Learned Friend's plan, till he had an opportunity of seeing
the details, and of further considering the whole subject.
He ha I now concluded the observations which he had to
make on the propositions which had been submitted to
their Lordships by his Noble and Learned Friend. As to
what might be called the financial part of the arrange•
ment, lie was not yet sufficiently acquainted with it to be
competent to make any observations upon it, and he be-
lieved that it would be necessary for their Lordships to
call for several documents on that subject, before they
could thoroughly understand it. There was one particu-
lar, however, on which he was desirous to make an ob-
servation. His Noble and Learned Friend had stated,
that the diminution which these arrangemr nts would make
in the income of the Lord Chancellor was 7,000/. a year.
By his calculation the diminution was only 2,5001. The
whole of the Lord Chancellor's emoluments amounted to
between 14 and 15,0001. a year—arising partly from fees
in Chancery arad in this House, and partly from salary.
Of this sum; 2,5001. was paid to the Vice-Chancellor,
whose office was at first experimental, and Lord Eldon
having given up 2,5001. of his income as Chancellor, to
assist in making up the proper allowance to be made for
this experimental Judge, the whole extent of the loss to
the Lord Chancellor by the arrangement Ise calculated at
5,000/., but then he retained, as he conceived, fees to
half the amount from the commissions, which reduced
the loss to 2,5001. Of course, this observation was
founded on the supposition that his Noble and Leal ned
Friend meant to retain the commissions, and only
meant to entrust them to a new tribunal. Now he had
this observation to make, that as long as it was thought
proper to place the Lord Chancellor at the head of the
peerage, his income ought not to be less than 14,0001. or
15,0001. a year, more particularly considering the preer-
riousness of the office; and, in his opinion, the 2,300/.
which was paid to the Vice-Chancellor ought to be re-
sumed, and that sum ought to be made up to him out of
the suitors' csta!es, which could very well afford it. He
was decidedly of opinion, that by this and other means,
the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor might be made up
to the full sum of 15,0001. a year. Then as to the in-
' creasing of the Lord Chancellor's retiring salary to 6000/.
it was to be considered that there might be three or four
retired Chancellors in existence, and then he was afraid
that the other House would hardly agree to allow the
6,000/. to so many retired Chancellors, although means
might be found to make up that sum by appointing retired
Chancellors to some other proper situations—such as hear/
of the Privy Council—and then a further allowance might
be made in addition to the existing retired salary. At
present the retired salary ceased on the Ex-Chancellor's
accepting another appointment. There might be some
difficulty in forming a proper arrangement in this respect,
but he did not think that it was impossible. He begged
pardon for detaining their Lordships so long. He was
glad that so much was likely to be done of that which he
had attempted to do, but had failed, as he was anxious
that there should be an end of the odium which had been
attached to the constitution of the Court of Chancery.
There were two points only as to which he felt conside-
rable doubt—the change as to the Commissioners of Bank-
rupts, and in the mode of taking evidence in the Courts
of Equity; the latter certainly was a most important
change, and one which deserved the gravest conside!atim!.
Ile knew that the Master of the Rolls did not agree in opi-
nion on that head with his Nob'e and Learned Friend,
but he hoped that at last they would be able to come to a
just conclusion on the subject, and the change, if change
should be made, would be effected in such a way, that,
in case it should prove a failure, they might easily retrace
their steps. With this precaution it might, perhaps, be
worth while to try the effect of a new system. He had
only been anxious to throw out these few suggestions
before lie left town on his official duties, and he thanked
their Lordship for the attention with which they had heard
him.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—Nothing could be more
satisfactory to him than the observations and explanations
of his Noble and Learned Friend, and the very candid
manner in which he had stated his approbation of those
puts of the general plan in which he concurred, and the
equady fair and candid manner in which he had stated and
explained his doubts as to other parts which he could not
at present fully approve, but which he by no means pledged
himself to oppose. It was satisfactory to hear his views so
candidly and fairly staled by a man of his learning and ex-
perience, and he was glad that he had mentioned the diffi-
culties that pressed on his mind, as lit would be his (the
Lord Chancellor's) duty to :endeavour to remove difficul-
ties, or so to vary and modify his measure, as 'to keep
clear of them. He would be very glad if he could obtain
the approbation of his Noble and Learned Friend to his
general plan, and any suggestions from him would be
listened to with the most earnest and respectful attention.
It might be thought sufficient to have said this much re-
specting his Noble and Learned Friend's observations and
explanations, since he had not pledged himself to oppose
even those parts of the plan as to which he at present felt
doubts; but he was anxious to say a few words respecting
the grouads and reasons of his Noble and Learned Friend's
doubts, as otherwise an injurious impression might go
abroad as to the propriety and advantage of some of the
most important parts of the measure. It was true, as his
Noble and Learned Frit n I had observed, that the subject
ought to be treated openly, frankly, and candidly, and
without personal or party feelings, and both of them had
only one common object; and, with that impression on his
mind, he would shortly advert to one or two of the diffi-
culties which pressed un his Noble and Learned Friend's
Ile first of these three Bills—that which re-
lated to lunatics, was more his Noble and Learned
Friend's measure than his, especially the second branch of
it. As to the mode of paying the Masters, he really was
not aware tl:at this bad been part of the Bill which had
gone down last Session to the other Hones, and had
dropped owing to the demise of the Crown, and which
certainly he had opposed and retarded.—(Lord Lyndhurst
—" It was a separate Bill.")—Why, then, if it was, he
had certainly not opposed that Bill ; fur he was not aware
of its existence. What he had opposeJ, and that ve-
hemently—but still most conscientiously—,was that Bill
by which it was proposed to appoint an additional and
new Judge in Equity. He was not aware of the Bill for
altering the mode of paying the Masters, which coincided
with the viaw which he himself entertained en that sub-
ject, and he had no doubt but that his Noble and
Learned Friend would concur in a measure which

it appeared he had himself anticipated. As to the
report of the Chancery Commissioners of 1626, he quite
agreed with his Nuble and Learned Friend, that few per,
sons had perused it with much attention, and perhaps that
might be said of himself ; for he really did not know that
the, Commissioners had recommended the payment of the
Masters solely by salaries. But still the tact was that he
had perused the whole of it from beginning to end with
much attention, and what he found there was not a reconr-
mendation to pay the Masters by salaries only, hut a re-
commendation to pay them partly by fees and partly by
salaries, the very worst of all possible ways, for it united
the disadvantages of both modes of payment. If the
Master should be indolent, and the salary was 2,0001. or
2,500/., then he might say, " I am sure of this, and can
live very easily on my salary, and need not trouble myself
much with bussiness." If he was avaricious the salary
would ba no check on his disl.osition to create delay anti
expense in the suits, in order to multiply his fees.
.There would ln no check on avarice but indolence, so
that this mixed mode of payment was the very worst

plan that could be devised. His plan was to pay the
principal officers by salaries only, and the inferior officers
by fees—not upon the intermediate steps of procedure, but
on the causes concluded—so as to obviate all temptation to
create delay and expellee, in order to multiply the fees.
Then, as to the mode of taking evidence, neither the party
nor the Judge, as the system at present existed, saw the
witnesses. It might, perhaps, be difficult to substitute
another mode ; but he was far from thinking it impossible;
and he certainly did think that it would be a great im-
provement to have the issues tried in the Master's Office,
instead of sending them to a Court of Common Law—
leaving it to the Lord Chancellor to decide on questions
of law, and on new trials, after the facts had been ascer-
taiued by trial in the Master's Office. As to the diffi-
culties of this mode of taking evidence, they had the ex-
perience of the proceedings of the name kind in Scotland.
The Scotch, about seven or eight hundred years ago, had
been in the civil law-stage, being that in which the Court
of Chancery and Doctors' Commons now are. Then they
came to the second stage, in which examinations were
taken by Commissioners, but in the presence of the
parties and their Counsel and agents, if they chose
to attend and question the witnesses, and of late the
Scotch had got beyond that, and bad reached the
third stage, in which the issues of fact were tried
before a Judge and Jury. It was nut surprising that
Dr. Lushington should have had a partiality to the
first stage, which was that of his own Court, and
these Doctors, as well known, were very much attached
to their own ways. He, according to his plan of pro-
ceeding gradually, bad taken the first step, from the first
stage to the second, in the hope that this would pave the
way for a safe advance to the third stage. The Chancery
Commissioners mentioned by his Noble and Learned Friend
might have concurred, for any thing he knew, in the expe-
dieney of retaining the existing mode of taking evidence
but if so, some of them must have altered their opinions
since 1826. Before he had submitted his plan to their
Lordships, be had laid it before many gentlemen of the pro-
fession, some of them having been themselves Commis.
sioners in 1826, and left them to discuss it among them-
selves, without being himself present. He had refrained
from being present. as the freedom of urging and discussing
objections might otherwise have been restrained by deli-
cacy, and tkey had approved of his plan; so that if the
Chancery Commissioners of 1826 were unanimous in ap-
proving the continuance of the present system of taking
evidence, they had since taken a much sounder view of the
subject. As to the Commissioners of Bankrupts, it was
notorious that in the country the attorneys made jobs of
them, and yet it was equally notorious, that in many places
some of the greatest men, and the ablest lawyers—Mr.
Serjeant Cross, Sir W. D. Evans, afterwards Recorder of
Bombay, and some others whom he might mention, had
acted in these Commissions. It was but fitting that a
word should be put in for the country Commissions, when
they had been so severely attacked. But his general ob-
jections did not apply to the Commissioners, either in
town or country, but to the system. He differed from his
Noble and Learned Friend as to Lord Eldon's observations
on the subject, and could not suppose that these observa-
tions were confined solely to the country Commissions.
He admitted that many of the London Commissioners
were able- men and excellent lawyers ; but, at the same
time, it was perfectly well-known that some of them fell
into the grossest blnnders. For instance, it appeared in
actions at law, that those composing one of the lists had
found a man a bankrupt on an act of bankruptcy supposed
to have been committed by the son, and an act, which
after all, was not an act of bankruptcy. The Commission
was, of course, superseded, and the aggrieved party got
some damages against them. But in these cases the proof
was often difficult ; and in the case mentioned, although
it was proved, the unfortunate sufferer got only trifling
damages for what to him was perhaps total ruin ; and this
blunder was committed by the celebrated 14th list. The
great objections, however, to these Commissions were
their numbers—their sitting altogether—their practising
beaare each other, and their being constantly called off
from the exercise of their duties as Judges, by the
calls which were made on them in the course of their
practice as professional men ; for it should be understood
that the public did not purchase the whole, but merely a
small part of their time by the sum paid to them as Com-
missioners. Against these, and not the men, were his
objections directed, for lie repeated what he said on the
former evening, that it was impossible for any sets of
Commissioners under such circumstances to give satisfac-
tion. Passing to the other part of his Noble Friend's
observations, he must say that he thought the plan of
taking viva voce evidence, instead of interrogatories,
would tend much to get rid of all that chicanery which
had been long in the Court of Chancery a subject of just
complaint and animadversion. With respect to the
country Commissions, he must say he thought the
plan proposed would be a great improvement, and
that the suitors in bankruptcy would be much be-
nefitted by the appeal, which would at once
lie from the assignee in the country to one of
the Judges of the new Bankruptcy Court in town. It
would also much relieve the Court of Chancery itself, by
freeing it from a troublesome and tedious class of business.
His Noble Friend had adverted to the probable loss which
the holder of the Great Seal would experience by these re-
ductions and alterations, and be had denied that it would
amount to more than 2,500/. a-year, while he (Lord
Brougham) estimated it at 7,000/. Unquestionably he
had not b en in office long enough to know much of its
receipts, and if the Civil List Bill did not pass, it was
not likely he would get anything at all. His Noble Friend,
too, who was probably the Chancellor in reversion, while
he was the Chancellor in possession, might form a some-
what different estimate of these things; but this he would
say, that it never could be intended, nor would Parlia
ment, he was sure, allow it to be, that the Lord Chan-
cellor of England should receive a smaller salary titan a
Puisne Judge. In conclusion, the Noble and Learned
Lord paid a high compliment to his Noble and Learned
Predecessor (Lord Lyndhurst), to whom he was indebted
for the suggestion of many valuable alterations, and for
the maturing of others, particularly the ground-work of
the valuable improvements in the administration of the im-
portant branch of lunacy. His Lordship also, in conclu-
sion, complim• nted the Lunacy Commissioners, to whose
exertions the country was indebted for many valuable al-
terations in the management of asylums.
The Bill was then read a second time.
COMMISSIONS OF LUNACY.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH complained of the haste with
which this Bill was passed through the House. It was pre-
sented on Tuesday, read a second'time on Wednesday, and
stood for commitment on Friday—a course very unusual.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took blame to himself
for this, as it was not intended to hurry the Bill through
the House, but merely to allow his Noble Friend (Lord
Lyndluirst), whose Bill it really was, to express his opi-
nion on it before he went the Circuit. It was for this
purpose, and on the understanding that his Noble Friend's
leisure would be consulted, that he had exceeded the usual
forms of the House. Their Lordships would, however,
excuse it on account of his freshness in the knowledge of
their forms; and he moved that the commitment be post-
poned till Monday.
Adjourned at Half-psst Seven till Monday.