The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-07 00:00:00

THE CONVICT SYSTEM.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR wished to ask whether the Noble
Lord who had given a notice of motion on this subject
intended to persevere in his motion, as several Members,
if he did, were very desirous of taking part in the
debate.

Lord MAHON said in reply that he certainly would
persevere in his motion.
RATE IN AID (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on
the Rate in Aid Bill, and
Mr. GROGAN ruse and said, that in alluding to his
motion for the adjournment of the House, he hoped hN
should be excused by Hon. Gentlemen 1,,r the trouble
he had given them, in consideration of the immense Im-
portance of this measure, at least to Ireland. and the
effect which it was likely to create on all the estates
in Ireland. He could not h. 1p saying that, and
he hoped the feeling with which he uttered it would be
appreciated by a society of English gentlemen. He
could not help saying that her Majesty's Minis-
ters had entirely failed in making out any plea
for their case but that of necessity.—(Hear, hear.)
If there was no other hopes for Ireland than those con-
tained in the speeches that had been hitherto delivered
on the subject, especial y that•of the Right Honourable
Baronet, the late Prime Minister, he should be almost
inclined to despair for the fate of Ireland ; but he
thought there were greater hopes for Ireland than had
been held out by any of those Hon. MErnb(,rs.
He did not think that any Hon. Member
that had spoken in favour of the measure had advanced
arguments to justify the Government in inflicting
this rate upon the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
He called upon the Goverment to put Ireland in a
position to bear an English poor-law before they
forced such measures as these from them.—
(Hetr, hear.) Why did they not remodel the
system of electoral division, and adapt the law to the
means of the people? Assimilate the law of Ireland
with the law of England, and then ihne

might Le a chance of a po.)r-law succeeding. Give them
the English poor-law iu iti entiruty, aid he for on?,
was qatte prepared to adopt its respo:isibi:ities.—(Hear.)
lie could not :ee the justice of the statement, that be•
c Ire!and paid no duty upon bricks and soap, nor,
inched, the income t tx, that she should, there-
fore, pay this rate in air). Though it was
stated that this rate was only to be imputed for two
) ears he feared, like the income tax in England,
that it would be imposed in perpetuity. But
alter all, he doubted much whether the rate could
be obtaincd, looking at the present way in which pro-
perty was rated in Ireland ; if, therefore, immediate
relief was intended, the funds would have to come out of
the Imperial Trea'ury. lle reminded the Government
that an Act was passed in the 23cl year of the reign of
George 111., for the collection of a rate in aid of the
poor in certain districts of Scotland which provided
that the money should be collected in the
districts to which the relief was to extend,
and not in other parts. That was exactly his
opinion. He regretted that the extravagance and mis-
management of the Government in the west of Ire-
land rendered it necessary that her representatives
should oppose the introduction of this measure.

The lion. Member then entered into a series of stadsti-
cal de tails relative to the number and cost of the
p lepers in the B illyshannon and Nenagh unions under
the guardians, as compared with the period under the
charge of Mr. Darcy, and contended that the increased
cost in the latter else was owing to the extravagance of
the Government officials, and that the Government itself
was responsible for the present state of affairs in these
unions. He believed that the guardians elected by the
rate-payers had been unnecessarily and unjustifiably re-
moved, and vice-guardians substituted, instead of the
guardians being aided, as they ought to have lafen, by
competent officers. One of the best features in the plan
of the Noble Lord was his proposition of a maximum.
The real cause which prevented the cultivation of the
land, and the improvement of wastes by the landed pro•
prietors, was in many cases the fear that the results of
such employment and improvement would be swallowed
up by the paupers on other estates. With respect to the
proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for
Tamworth, of a plantation in Connaught should be made
similar to that in Ulster, at a former period in its his-
tory, he should be very happy to see such a plantations
if he saw similar results likely to follow. But it could
not be effected without the commission of great indiefs
dual injustice to certain families, and to proprietors who
were willing and ready to discharge all the duties
of their position, and to provide employment, but who
were deprived of the means of doing se, and bad not
got that supp.irt from the Government which they ought
to have done. He had been assured by numerous pro-
prietors in Mayo that they were quite willing to take
upon themselves the responsibility of providing employ-
ment and of supporting the poor on their own estates,
but they had themselves been pauperised by the burdens
thrown on them from other quarters ; the consequence
was that the land was now lying waste, and every-
body who had a little money was flying from the
country. how were they to stop these people from
going ? A plan to effect that would be much more
beneficial than a mere plan to redistribute burdens,
especially when that redistribution was founded upon
such palpable injustice. They said the people of Ulster
were loyal, peaceable, and industrious, and because they
were so they were to be taxed for the support of ano-
ther portion of the island.—(Hear, hear.) For his own
part, he was firmly convinced that a limitation of the
area of taxation was the only foundation upon which
a better system could be placed. No one thing was, in
his opinion, so well calculated to draw out the resources
of Ireland as limiting the area of taxation, and had that
been part of the Noble Lord's plan ho would have been
content to wink at much of the injustice of a rate in aid.
The gross and flagrant abuses of the present arbitrary de-
cisions excited general complaint in Ireland. He knee:
one large property through which an imaginary line bad
been drawn by the Government officials, separating tt
into two electoral divisions. On one side of this finite'
nary line there were four or five occupiers, who, being
on good terms, made a mutual arrangement to contri•
bore to a fund for the employment of the able-bodied,
and the result was, that rates in that electoral division
some time ago were only 6d. in the pound. On the
other side of this imaginary line, however, the same
agreement did not subsist between the parties in ecru'
pation, and the consequence was that the rates there
were 2s. 6d., and he had heard they had since risen to
6e 6d. He thought the Nole Lord would have done
well if he had examined and adopted the suggestions
thrown out by a Noble Lord (Stanley) in another,
place, that Noble Lord was practically acquainte°
with the subject, and had a large personal interesS
in it.—(Hear, hear.) His suggestions, if ado tees
would have had the most beneficial effect.-odeer'
hear.) With respect to emigration, although in sortie
places it might be necessary to set the social machiee
in proper working order, yet he believed in most distriele
of Ireland the population was really below the require-
merits of the country, and therefore he had no confidence
in emigration as a remedy fur the present state of Ire:
land. There was no proof that all the resources of the
West had he en exhausted; on the contrary, they had the
strongest evidence that in the Archdiocese of Tuam the
resources were not expended, for the people of twent3::
seven parishes were about giving in a simultaneous COI
lection to the assistance of the Pope
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN had listened with gett
attention to the exposition of the Noble Premier
views in proposing this rate in aid, and he must confess
that he went with him in almost all his reasons eel
the subject • but he did not go with him in think;
lug that the rate in aid was the proper means
meeting the difficulty. Attacks had been marls
in that House and through the press on the landlords 0,
Ireland anti Le did not mean to stand up in defence of
all the landlords of that country, but he felt at the same
time that some of them were charged with a great mauls
f..ults which it was impossible for them to avoid. It Wen
said the landlords declined to employ the labourers 0,
their estates, but the landlords of the south of Relent;
were almost all of them men who had given leases
their land for three lives. In doing that they gavel
possession of the land for that ti ee, and consequently
Was the farmers wh6 held the land that had the etne,,ll.
ment of the labourers.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. tieb,
highest) (rid not feel called upon to propose any 5,e. e
stitution for this tax of a rate in aid, and feet
that it was the bounden duty of Ministers e
see the people did not starve, he agreed to tb
resolutions. The course of legislation adopted by Ihis
country towards Ireland had tended to produce 1r ;„
,
that coantry a very general opinion that it was t(Sie
borne and ruined by England. He was most decide
opposed to the feeling which pervaded some of t4lO
literary productions of that country. There vras ell
which probably many Honourable Members were w'
acquainted with—
, " Fruitful our soil, where honest men starve;
Empty the mart, and shipless the bay;
Out of our want the oligarchs carve—
Foreigners fatten on our decay.
Disunited,
Therefore blighted—
Ruined and rent by the Englishman's sway. to
Although he believed that Ireland had much cause 4,
complain of the conduct of this country towards livej
still he was most anxious to see good feeling pronst4ed
between the two countries, and a desire manifest
to bear each other's burdens, and share their good le
tune and prosperity.—(Hear.)
Mr. M. J O'CONNELL did not altogether app-
rove
of the wording of the amendment, but he should suePe„
it in preference to the rate in aid proposed by the Govefro
ment. He would rather the restriction as to the oeA
taxation of sums below 150/. per annum were reraolv;
and he should rather that the tax was to be levied en
fixed incom a, and not on incomes derived from trtgloi
and pro, essions. With regard to the. general question
se
real g for the poor, he was of opinion that such rS
ought to be placed upon fixed property and real incoteeoi
ne
while in regard to local rates it was impossible to hale 5.010
control over them, so as to prevent the misapplies° le
and jobbing which so often took place in the adminisieor,
ing of them, unless the parties administering them Iv,
control!. d by a sense of local and fiscal responsibLi(ey
He thought the proposition of the Government migerthe
so altered as not only to apportion the rate between she
landlord and tenant, but also between 0
landlord and the mortgagee. Had that been dollei,
would not have pressed so heavily on individual pallid
The Noble Lord, in introducing his proposition, eiy
that a d s inction ought to be made in regard to fl
ns
y%
settlemen s in the imposing of the rate, and to exclue
dependents on property coming under that class fro
si
the rate ; he could see no objection. If the amendno
of his Honour able and Gallant Friend (Major Macke
filed, then he would be placed in a serious po-iti°
He would then have to decide whether he would eere'
port the rate as proposed by the Government—end ie
regard to that he did not hesitate to say, thet bib
such an event he would feel it to be his duty te
constituents to support the Government measube,
faulty as in many cases he felt it to eiee
With re. $ d to the opposition of Honourable GentieeToe
frnen the north of Ireland, he thought their oN:welted
came wiih ha grace, as they always were wont to bet
down the proposition of the late Honourable IdebEenee
far Bath (Mr. Roebuck), who always contended that gee
part of t' e country was not bound to contribute 00,
support of the other. But not ouly did they do I
see
they likewise had no objection, and, in fact, seePer„o3
measures subjecting all the other provinces in ire'i
b-eit
~,
tube taxed the one for the support of the other.
tee
opposition now, therefore, wax inconsistent. As to ey
area of taxation, he considered the electoral divisions e 1
tar too large, but then a difficulty arose how were leis
to make representation co-extensive with rating• noe
his opinion it would be inconvenient to have be
guardian representing two or mora divisions, et g
ie
thought in rural districts some such system as to
operation in England should be adopted. In regteoi.
the ep ect, of the Right Honourable Baronet the it a
tier for Tamwor h, last evening, he consideredmee
most _ratifying symptom that that Right Hon. Genii! rea
should have thrown off his usual caution, and tentlehne,
very judicious advice on this subject. His remarks,cos
in some instances, met with rather severe censure ft
some of the Irish Members; but they were not the„inte
useful in consequence. He thought the Right 130.
Baronet deserved the thanks of Ireland for the 501 be
tions he had thrown out, and he hoped they woe',
e of
taken up in Ireland and acted upon. There coulaee,
be a doubt but that the mode of affording relief to
land pointed out by him was far more beneficial, leelle,
would la,! productive of better results than to give
mose-nary relief to the people of that country. ir
ported by both sides of the House the Right Hor• ells
roneL's plan might be worked out with the greatest:it
vantage; and did it receive that support, and see'ne
c,:rried out by the Government, he hesitated not to st,
Hen. that the Right H. Gentleman might be justly COgi
dered as one of Ireland's best benefactors.—(Heen)e tee
Captain JONES was one of those who supporteltiog
Irish poor-law, and he considered that were defile 00
landlords made to pay their rates now there would beat to
necessity for the present measure. He considered no
Cho 1004511r9 9f ci9Yeziament was insufficient to cal

Give them
he for one
.—(Hear.)

that be•
soap, nor,
d, there-
-1 it was
ti for two

England,
ity. But
ato could
which pro-
immediate
ome out of
overnment
e reign of
tid of the
h provided

in tho
) extend,
sactly his
e and mis-
st of Ire-
asentatives

measure.
of staisti-
!ost of the
ions under
under the
e increased

with great
le Premier
nust confess
reasons 01i
in in think:
3r means
been made
r
landlords 0+
in defence of
at the situ.
6 great maul
void. Wyss
labourers on
of Irelsol
veil leases °f
they gave
lsequentlY
the envier
:e (Mr.
rse any sou'
and teelieg
Uiuisters 10
greed
to the
)pted by thi,!
produce -
it was over
)st decided:l
torte of til6.
ere was 011;
s were we'

It arVe ;
bay►

s sway. ,0
ch calve
1,,
towards
ig proniote,
munifeste'
eir good for