The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MAY 26, 183&

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Mar 25.

Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD and others, from the Commons, brought up
the Custody of Infants Bill and other Bills.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a petition relative to
national education in Ireland.
Lord WYNFORD presented a petition complaining of some acts of
cruelty committed under the New Poor-law Bill.
Earl RADNOR said it was ridiculous to suppose that an old man
of 89, and blind to boot, was kept at hard labour on the treadmill.
NEGRO SLAVERY.

Lord LYNDHURST presented a petition from the procurators in
Paisley, in favour of the Scottish Law Reform Bills. Also several yeti.
Lions from congregations in favour of negro apprenticeship abolition.
Lord BROUGHAM postponed the presentation of some hundreds of
petitions he had received on the subject of slavery, and the endowment
of the Church in Scotland. In consequence of what had taken place
in another place the matter did not press, and he would not interfere
with the subject to be brought before the House by a Rev. Prelate
In answer to a question from Lord FITZGERALD,
The Marquis of LANDSDOWNE ►aid the Government would net
oppose a clause for promoting emigration or other auxiliaries
for illSarillg the success of the working of the Poor Law (Ireland)
Bill. The y would, however, prefer to wait and see what the work_
ing of the Bill might be before the subject of emigration was finally
considered.
The Marquis of DO WNSH IRE presented petitiona from six parishes
in the county of Down, against the report of the National Education
Board, and praying that it might not be allowed to be acted upon.
The Duke of SUTHERLAND presented a petition from
the Highlands of Scotland, praying that a Professorship of Gaelic
might be instituted in the Aberdeen University ; also several in favour
of the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway, and for the abolition of negro
apprenticeship.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY gave notice that if it ware con.
veniont to the Noble Viscount( Melbourne), he would appoint Monday, 4th
June, for a discussion on the affairs of Spain. He would also present
on Monday next, a petition numerously signed by London tradesmen,
praying for a Postponement of the Coronation.
SYSTEM OF NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND.

The Marquis of DO WNSHIRE presented petitions in favour of a
modification of the national system of education in Ireland, from va-
rious parishes in the counties of Down, Cavan, and Antrim, and also
from the diocese of Raphoe.
The E;irl of, ROUEN presented petitions against the system from
Kiimote, in the county of Down ; from Coleraine, the Protestants of
the town of Raphoe, from a parish in Armagh,and other places.
The Bishop of LONDON presented a similar petition from the
Protestant inhabitants of Cogher, and another town.
The Bishop of EXETER said he had a great many petitions on the
same subject ; but he wtmidmercly read the names of the places whence
they come. Having done this the petitions were laid on the table.
They came from the Protestant inhabitant: of Limerick, Down, and
varous towns in different parts of Ireland.
' The Bishop of EXETER said it would be in the recollection of
their Lordships that about two pears ago, he moved for the appointment
of a Select Committee to inquire intothe working of the system of edu-
cation adopted in Ireland, but oil the occasion he was not fortunate
enough to induce their Lordships to consent to the motion.--(Heir.)
Ott that occasion the speech that he made was subsequently made a
subject of comment by her Maje-ty's Commissioners in their third Re-
port. In that Report some observations wore made respecting
which in some degree tended to touch his honour and his character.
He then felt it his duty to move for a Committee of Inquiry, and gave

notke that at a very early period of the following Session he should
bring the subject, as regarded the working of the system of education
under the consideration of the House. In the interim between the
close of that Session and the beginning of the last, her Majesty's Mi-
nisters had thought differently upon the subject (and he thanked them
for it), for they had been so good as to propose the appointment of a
Select Committer to investigate the subject. He would, without fur-
ther preface, state what the resolutions were which he should submit for
their Lordships' approbation. They were these:—" First, that it appears
to this House that the system of national education in Ireland has
failed to etreet the intention as set, forth in the letter of Mr. Stanley (now
Lord Stanley), addressed to the Duke of Leinster, in the month of Octo-
ber, 1831, as far as the education of the children of Protestants and
Roman Catholics are concerned ; secondly, that the working of the sys_
tern has been prejudicial to the interests of, and discouraging to, the
Protest:l:us, and tending to encourage the .Roman Catholic religion ;
thirdly, that the staterm nts as to the progress made, announced in the
fourth Report of the Commis' oilers, do not appear to be adequate to the
costs which have been occasioned." Now as r. garded the first resolu-
tion—viz., the failure of the system, as pointed out in the letter of Mr.
Stanley, their Lordships would recollect that one great object of it was
the unding Protestant and Catholic children in the same schools. But
besides this obj.ct, there was another, which was, that by unit-
ing religious instruction in this way, it would operate to re-
move jealousy, it was insisted, with respect to the first point
the union of children of Protestants and Catholics in instruc-
tion he apprehended that no one would now say, after the
expeeien e obtained. 1114 it had succeeded even in a small degree,
It appeared that Mr. Carlisle had set forth an account of some schcols in
in 0.. e part of the country to this effect. In 1816, out of 1,219 schools,
the result was this, that in all those schools there were 15,163 Protes.
tants, whilst the number of Catholic children was 90,595, making
about one Protestant to six Crtholics. This inequality of the number of
Protestant and Catholic children in those schools pervaded the Re-
port, even the seminaries which were considered the best specimens of
the , hoots of national education ; rise Catholics being, in most places,

two_thirds of the scholars, until, increasing by degrees, they were
found to amount in Donegal, to the number of 621) Catholics to two
Protestants. From all that he had learned, it appeared that the charge
of furnishing the means of scriptural education must fall, and had so
far en upon the clergy of the Established Church. He need hardly
r,mark that the great leading object of the plan of Lord Stanley
was, as he confessed, to create a union of the children of different
re:igi .us persuasion in the pursuit of sound learning and re-
ligious instruction, and that this leading object had entirely
failed --(Cries of hear, hear, hear.) A second object avowed was

the separate instruction of Protestant arid Catholic children at different
times by spiritual teachers of their separate persuasions. Of the suc-
cess of this second plan nothing could be known as respected the cl-tildren
of Catholic parents. But it was curious to hear the account given of
the progress of the Protestant put of these children in receiving se_
paste scriptural education ; Mr. 'Woodward, of the Model School, said
that though their. were in the district 3,500 Protestant children, the
instructors found that they could not, but with the greatest difficulty,
obtain the attendance of any number of the children, who were withheld
by the schoolmasters on vat ions pretexts from attending ; that hardly an
hour a week was thus employed in rec: lying separate instruction ; that
the scholars would not be induced to get off their tasks by heart, anti

were not amenable to any control. The result of the ,xperiment

respscted the teachers was quite disheartening.—(Hear.) The Roman
Catholic clergy generally, with Dr. M`Hale at their head, had denounced
the admission of scripture! extracts into these schools ; Dr. M`Hale in-
terdicting the practice as exposing the true faith to a pestilent conta
gion. In respect to the dr awing up of these extracts, he regretted to be
obliged to say that in the concessions made to the construction put on
different texts of Scriptiare, to meet the doctrine of the Romish Church,
great blame attached itself to the conduct of the Commissioners in
the preparation of these extracts, more particularly in respect to the
earliest of the prophecies relating to the coming of the Redeemer, which
prediction is in Genesis, chap. 3—namely, " the reed of the woman shall
bruise the serpent's head." By a note, the sense was in the extract con-
formed to the prejudices of the Catholics in favour of the intervention
of the Virgin hetween God arid his creatures, and admitted to be the
same as that given in the Douay edition of the Bible. With respect to
the sacrifice of the mass, a most important point, and the double sacri-
fice which Christ math of himself in the eucharist, and in the bloody sa-
crifice on the cross, a similar concession to Catholic doctrine had, he
regretted to say, been admitted into the volume of sacred extract-. He
would now refer to a most singular circumstance of oppression and
neglect in the case of Mr. O'Croly—a man universally respected by all
sects. This gentleman had shown himself rather a reformer than a mem-
ber of the Church of Eng'and ; having scarcely gone beyond what
Dr. Doyle had recommended—namely, an approach to the Church
of England. He had been suspended by his Bishop, and was
living privately in his parish. The priest who was appointed to su-
persede him thought proper to use the national school-room for
several Sundays, the chapel of the place being out of repair. Its
this room the newly-appointed priest, Mr. James Daly, denounced
Mr. O'Croly before the congregation. Mr. O'Croly wrote a
letter to the Board, and an answer was ultimately returned, promising
that the matter in dispute should be taken under their investigation. In
the course of a month he was informed that an investigation of this kind
had been made, which was satisfactory to the Board; but it was done
without giving any opportunity to Mr. O*Ctoly to confront this same
Roman Catholic priest, who contented himself with denying the facts
alleged. A minute of the Board, bearing date 14th January 1636, pre.
sent the Duke of I.einster, Dr. Murray, and others, declared that the
Rev. Mr. Daly's explanation, ts a certain extent, was satisfactory to the
Board, but that he was warned against any infringement of the Board's
rulss ; so that the Board threw out of their consideration the outrage
which had been perpetrated on Mr. O'Croly, who could not continue to
reside in the place where he was without danger to his life, and he was
actually obliged to have recourse to the mili:ary station at Ballincollig
fur protectiOn, from whence he addressed the Commissioners, stating his
regret that he had no opportunity of meeting Mr. Daly, whose statements
he had been prepared to reply to. The Right Rev. Prelate here read an
extract from a work of Mr.Carlisls,a resident Commissioner, ar to the gene_
ral character of the Roman Catholic priesthood. Ile stated that recent
events hail proved that a large proportion r f them were deeply tinged
with infidel principles—rejecting the Scriptures, as the word of God,
with sovereign contempt, and denouncing the Bible as a mischievous
book. He now came to the second resolution, which he proposed to
the effect that the present system of education in Ireland tended to
the disarrangement of Protestantism in Ireland. The other resolution
he should propose declared that the modifications made in the fourth
report of the Board did not appear to remedy the evils which had been
admitted. He thought the modifications made were of such a nature,
that he was net surprised that almost every Protestant body in Ireland
concurred its condemning the system, as aggravating the evils of the
former system. 'fire complaint which had been made was, not that
the Bible was not read, but that the Bible was placed in these schools
on a par with the Roman Catholic catechism. It was disgraceful
to a Christian country if the word of God were neglected.
When Doctor Wiseman was asked the reason why the Bible
was. not put into the hands of children; he said that he did not
think that the reason was a supposed want of understanding on the part
of the children, but that the Catholic faith did not require that per-
sonal knowledge of the Bible that the Protestant faith demanded. The
evidence of the Dean of Armagh and others proved the great eagerness
which the people of Ireland had for biblical instruction ; but he would
not take the authority of Protestants only, but would rely upon that of
the Irish Society, which had conferred such essential benefits on the
people of Ireland. The Right Rev. Prelate here quoted a passage, in
support of the view of the case, from the address of the Roman Catholic
teachers to the Irish Society, in which it was declared that the Irish
peasantry were most anxious for scriptural knowledge for themselves and
for their children. The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by moving the
resolutions.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE must complain of the period at
which the Right Rev. Prelate brought this subject forward. Passing
over se large a portion of the session, when their Lordship's time was
unoccupied, the Right Rev. Prelate now chose a time when neither the
chiefecclesiastical nor the chief lay Commissioner could have been pre-
sent. The system was said not to have succeeded, but, in his
opinion, it had succeeded to an extent greater than even the most
sanguine persons could have anticipated in so short a space of
time, though it had not yet been able to do all that could be wished.
The object was not only to communicate education to the mass of the
people of Ireland, who were Catholics, but that the minority sho:ld be
so educated with them, as to eradicate that fatal estrangement between
castes which had for centuries been the bane of Ireland. These schools
had now between 166,000 and 170,000 pupils, although only 37,000
children had been educated by the Kildare-street Society, notwithstand-
ing all their exertions, as appeared by the report of 18:14. There was
a progressive increase of pupils under the new system of education in all
the four provinces, and the Right Rev Prelate would not himself deny
but that this advantage, at least, had been gained—that this great num
ber of pupils obtained, at all tvents, a good Catholic education. He had
a return, from which it appeared that the relative number of Protestants
and Catholics in Ulster at those schools stood thus :—he took the ec-
clesiastical province of Armagh, and found that the number of the Pro-
testant population was 1,171,618, and of the Catholic 1,955,1.3. The
number ofchildren :n the schools was 17,000 Protestants and 28,000
Catholics, being set, little short of the number of Protestants in pro-
portion to the population. It was wrong, therefore, to ray that the Pro.
testants did not reap benefit from this system, and they would have
reaped more still if so many of the Protestant clergy had not
withheld their support, and, indeed, given to it their active opposition.
erever they had lent their aid the schools were placed on a proper

footing. No abuses had occurred, and the best benefits were conferred
on both classes of the children and on the people. The Noble Marquis
here quoted passages from the reports of the Rev. 'Mr. Staples, a Protes-
tant clergyman in the north of Ireland, and from that also of the Rev.
Mr. Hastings, to show that the number of Protestant children attending
the schools was nearly in proportion to that of the Catholics, in refer.
rence to the respective amounts of population. In one instance all the
Protestant inhabitants of the district had memorialised to have a school
placed under the control of the National School. This proved that the
system had at least the confidence of this portion of the Protestants
of Ireland—(Hear.) The landlord of the district, however, said
that he never would give Pis consent to it. The Noble Marquis next
referred to various other extracts, for the purpose of showing that the
children of Roman Catholics andofPresbyterians were educated together in
perfect concert, in several parts of the north of Ireland. In the course of his
farther observations the Noble Marquis went on to observe that Lady
Osborne, who had very extensive possessions in the county of Tipperary,
and who had ioterested herself in the education of the children of her
tecants for the last sixteen years, had cordially supported the national
system of education, though she was known to entertain strong preju.
dices against the doctrines of the Church of Rome. The Noble Mar-
quis next proceeded to comment on the polemical points urged by the
Right Rev. Prelate, and maintained that there was nothing whatever in
them which should induce their Lordships to discountenance the prin
tilde oft (locating the children of Protestants and of Roman Catholics
under the same roof. The Noble Marquis then went on to vindicate
the conduct of the officers employed under the Board of Commissioners,
and said that though trifling irregularities might have hitherto occurred,
measures had been adopted by which in future they would be avoided.
but he would say that if the object of certain parties was to get up a shop
of grievances here, no good could be derived from the system.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had always thought that no good
could result from a joint system of education In Ireland, considering
the agitated state of that country, even since 1793. It could not be
denied that the national system of education had failed, and the No.
ble Marquis had given no answer to the asguments of the Right Rev.
Prelate. It ought to be borne in mind that in the schools in the
North of Ireland Protestant children formed the majority, and in those
of the South of Ireland Roman Catholic children formed the majority.
Under the present system the Clergy had no power of going into the
schools in Ireland, and authoritatively teaching the sacred Scriptures
in them. The Noble Marquis had given no answer to the argument of
the Right Reverend Prelate, that under the present system the doc.,
trines of the Church of England were compromised, and that too with
the sanction of a most Reverend Prelate in Ireland. His main objection
to the fourth report was, that it exhibited the pretence of reading the
Scriptures, whereas, in fact, the system precluded the possibility of thetr
being read. But he wished to guard himself against any charge of in.
consistency, for though he had agreed to"eotes of money far carrying
this system into execution, yet he had done no more than his duty ;
for the system once established could not be changed with every
change of administration. The Noble Duke, in conclusion, said that
however much he deprecated the abuses of the sys•em, yet, for the
reasons be had just given, he could not support the re.
solution, and would, there:bre, move, as an amendment, that
their Lordships proceed to the order of the day.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Bishop of DERRY was glad that his Hight Rev. Friend, if he
would allow him to call him sn, had abstained from attacking the
Board, because he thought the interests of religion would be best pro-
moted by abstaining from ae;imonious reflections and angry aspersions
which had been indulged in on other occasions. He had the happiness

and the honour to be acquainted with the Noble Duke at the head of the
Board, and with respect to these attacks, he would say to him, " My
Lord, becomposed, your character is a shield which will protect you
from all calumnies," and to his most reverend and absent friend, who
had also been attacked, he would say, " Be not disturbed, you have
the highest of all human rewards—the approbation of your own heart,
and the consciousness of having discharged the duties of your reli.
gion to the best possible effect by promoting the glory of God, by the dif.
fusion of benevolence and peace upon earth."
The Bishop of NORWICH had been deeply grieved, and bad inex-
pressibly suffered, not in anger but in sorrow, at the harsh expressions
and the harsh measure, dealt out by the Right Rev. Prelate, who had in-
troduced this question, to those who had the misfortune to differ with
him. He trusted there were many who were equally anxious with that
Right Rev. Prelate to promote Christianity in Ireland, and who consi-
dered the system as a beneficial mode of introducing the blessings of
sound and true religion. The Right Rev. Prelate rr.ibht, therefore, have
spared denouncing them in the way he had done, as almost unworthy of
the the situation which they held in Church—(" No," from the Bishop
of Exeter.) Ile spake in sorrow, not in anger. He regretted that he
hat heard the expressions which had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate
who had also denounced the Board. Now front what he (the Bishop of
Norwich) knew of the 111..mbers of thatitoard, he thought that from the
whole circle of society it would be difficult to pr, cure men better cal-
culated for the circumstances in which they were placed, and for
the duties which they had to perform. He was sorry to be obliged
to say he did not think the Right Reverend Prelate had not been
careful to bring the whole question forward with that openness and can-
dour which would have become the occasion, for he held in his hand a
circular, addr. ssed by the Right Rev. Prelate to some of the clergy of
the diocese of Derry, requesting information on the subject of the sys-
tem of national education in Ireland--not, let it be observed, with refer-
ence to its general effects, but " especially any instances of abuses in the
system, and of perversions of it to purposes of party."—(Cheers.) Surely
it would have been fairer and more candid to have called fur all the in-
formation—the good and the bad—that they might be balanced and
compared together.—(Cheers.) Now with respect to the representations
made on this subject, their Lordships had heard touch of the parish of
Roundstone. The principal of the school in that parish, whose name
was O'Flaherty, wrote a letter to the Archbishop of Dublin, and he be.

tiered to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, complaining
of having been distnissed from his situation by the priest, and he for-
warded a memorial for his restoration, signed by the Protestants and
Catholics, and by Patrick King, Esq , of Annievate, the Chairman of the
meeting. He begged their Lordships to bear in mind Patrick King, Esq.,
of Annievate, the Chairman of the meeting. An inquiry was instituted,
and, after much cross-examination, Mr. O'Flaherty was compelled
to acknowledge that most of the names were put to the memorial by
himself and Patrick Xing, Esq., of Annievate, the Chairman of the
meeting. The question was then asked, who was Patrick King, Esq.,
of Annievate, Chairman of the meeting, and Mr. O'Flaherty, being
much pressed upon this point, also, at length, unwillingly confessed that
Partick King, Esq., of Annievate, Chairman of the meeting, was
absent without leave, so far as he was concerned, as a public criminal,
by the verdict of a jury, performing penance• on the tread_wheel of the
goal.—(Laughter.) Escar School had also been attacked, on the
ground that mass was celebrated in it on an altar, in the presence of
the children. Now, the fact was, that before the national system of
education was introduced, the friars in that neighbourhood had been
collecting money to build a chapel, and when the school came into the
hands of the Commissioners, permission was requested to leave the altar
in the school until the chapel should be finished, but a red curtain was
placed before the altar, and mass was not performed iii the presence of
the children ; nor was all gold that glittered in the petitions on the table.
With regard to one of them, the rector of the parish of Dean Burgh
declared that it was a hole-and-corner petition, got up by no one knew
whom ; and one man said he had signed it because he had heard there
was a Conservative Board of Lords sitting at Dublin, who were ready to
pay the passage money of every man who might choose to go to
America, and that one Noble Lord, he believed now before him, had the
charge and bad possession of the money.— (Loud laughter.) He said,
therefore, that the petitions must not be taken without some caution as
the fair and candid expression of the opinions of those who understood
what they were signing. Many attacks had been made upon the un.
fortunate books which he held in his hand; unfortunate, because never
had books been so grievously misrepresented and so unfairly treated.
It was said they were substitutes for the Scriptures. The compilers of
them never so intended them; they intended them as leading steps to-
wards the Scriptures, and, in an uneducated community to give, in the
words of the apostle, " milk to babes." It was said that they were filled
with sentences constructed and perverted to suit the Catholic faith.
Now, a decided enemy of the national system r f education in Ireland,
after vituperating it in the strongest manner, said he must do the editor
the justice to admit that, so far as he had examined, there was no pas.
sage which appeared to have been introduced or omitted under the
influence of any particular views of Christianity or religion, and that
the books might be used with great benefit for the instruction of Ca.
tholic children. He hoped their Lordships would not suffer the evening
to pass without opposing these resolutions and doing their best to sup_
port aid advocate that religion which, he was convinced, was b. st calcu_
lated for a Catholic population. Let them remember that see could not
do all we would; let is, therefore, do what we could. If we could not
compel the Catholics to read the Bible, let us show by our conciliatory
spirit, by our charity, by oar Protestant Christianity, that we had read
that Bible, and that we practised its precepts, and upon those data, and
those solely, with the Bible in our hands, let us stretch forth the right
hand of fellowship to the Catholics. We complained that the Catholics,
were ignorant—that they were barbarians ; it had been represented that
they were not to be believed on their oath. Perhaps the lower:orders might
be liable to some of these strictures, but whose fault was it ? For
600 years we had kept them in a state of ignorance. If then they had
kept them ignorant for so long a period, but had now given them civil
liberty, now let their Lordships extend to thaw education, and thus
pave the way for religious instruction; but it must not be forced too
strongly on the prejudices of the people. Their Lordships had heard
much of the mutilation of the Holy Scriptures ; but he must say, muti
late as much as could be done even the small book which he held in his
hand, still like the Sibyl leaves, there would be much that was valuable
that would remain; he would take the words " Glory to God, and peace
and goodwill to all mankind."— (Cheers.) Let that text go forth, an
alien and a wanderer in Ireland, and depend upon that, in con-
junction with a system of education, it would soon cease to be a wan-
derer, for it would find a home and resting place in every cabin iii
I reland.-- (C heers.)
The Earl of WINCHILSEA could say that it was the first duty of

the Legislature of a Protestant Christian country not to pro_
mote a system of national education, not founded on the whole
Word of God; and it was a perfect fallacy to suppose that under
any general system of education their Lordships could con-
ciliate the affections of both Protestants and Catholics.—(Hear.)

It was impossible to reconcle a general principle to the views of both
churches. tie could take upon himself to assert that the pre-
sent system was not in accordancewith the feelings of the Protestants of
Ireland—it was not in accordance with religious truth, as brought into
this country at the Refor:natiesn, and the Protestants of England were
decidedly opposed to it. Nothing could beso dangerous or so degrading
to a Protestant Legislature, as not doing their first duty to the country
and to God—namely, to extend that religion which had made the people
happy, and the country free. If the Right Reverend Prelate stood
alone on the motion before their Lordships he (Lord Winchilsea) would
stand by him.—(Cheers and great laughter.)

The Earl of WICKLOW was anxious to trouble their Lordships with
a very few observations. He could not vote for the two first resolu.
tions of the Right Reverend Prelate, because they went to imply a cen-
sure on the Commissioners, and, through them, on tie system. He had
strenuously opposed the system on its first introduction, because at that
time the Kildare-street Society was working well
; and it was matter
of great regret to hint that their Lordships were induced to aban-
don the one and adopt the other. And, strongly as he had objected to
the introduction of the present system at the time, yet he should as
strongly object mow to the abandonment of it, for the purpose of esta.
blishing another. He was bound to say that he considered the plan, with
certain modifications, might be brought to work beneficially and well ;
and he thought great credit was due to the Commissioners for the mod'.
fications already made. The increase in the number of Inspectors,
which the Commissioners had directed, was a great improvement in the
system. -But what he conceived was of still greater importance was,
into
thethe
schoolsalteration a
s a madepart o
f joint with reg
education.ard toThe g
introductionst strong
of theob Scriptures
objection which Pro_
testants had felt to the system was, becausereligious instruction had been
excluded from the schools; while such was the case, it was utterly im-
possible that the Protestant :ilergy could sanction or give their support to
the
trustedsystem. the But Commissioners therem ission waser w
as
greatcul evil yet to be remedied, and which
he d carry into effect. Ile alluded to the
pastors of the schools, who were generally Roman Catholic priests, hav-
ing the power to introduce catechisms, or any other religious books they
pleased. This was very objectionable, and if the Commissioners desired
to make the system work well, they would modify the existing regula-
tions, and di, away with this most objectionable principle.
The Bishop of LONDON was prepared, without hesitation, to vote
for the resolutions of his Right Rev. Friend. From the first he had
opposed the present system of national education for Ireland, and he
should still continue to do so, considering, as he did, that it was based on
a principle fundamentally vicious. If it were tried for a century, it
would never do good, and he considered it the imperative duty of the
Government of a Christian country, where the Church was connected
with the State, to uphold Christian truth i r any system of education to
beafopt
of twodfort ioherepiejogplen; and any national system, where there were
members ~
whose instruction was to be provided for,
ought to be in conformity with the truths taught by the Established
Church. Any other system, from tviginning to end, was bad. No
compromise could take place with respect to religious truth ; yet that
compromise was made under the existing system. With regard to the
Commission he wished to speak with all possible respect. One of the lead;

mg members of it was a Right Rev. Prelate, with whom he was acquainted
rie was a man of the most undoubted probity and honour, and he.
was satisfied if that Right Rev. Prelate considered that the eli's ct of
the principle would be to injure the Protestant Church, he would
at once indignantly send in his resignation. On these grounds he
must decline having it supposed he cast any censure on the Commission,
yet nothing that he (the Bishop of London) could say would be suffi-
ciently strong to express his objection to the principle upon which the
Commission was founded.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said the details brought forward
by the Right Rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) affected the Commis.
sioncrs more than the system ; they referred to particular management
in particular schools; they did not apply to the system itself, but to par.
ticular schools formed under the authority of the system. He denied
that the system was a failu• e. Let their Lordships recollect the short
time it had been established ; let them recollect the great excitement
which had prevailed; not only in Ireland, bat in England also, since
that period, and the events consequent upon that excitement ; then let
them look to the number of schools which had been established, and
then he would ask whether any man would say that this system, up to
the present moment, had fairly been tried ? Their Lordships had the
Ltd before them in the Report that no less a number than 166,9:15
children were LA present educated under the system. He thought
the Commissioners, by the regulations they had made, had amelio_
rat. d the management of those schools, and had done their utmost to
carry out the system in the spirit in which the Legislature had thought
fit to establish it.

The Earl of RODEN considered the system as inconsistent with the
interests of a great Protestant country ; because, in the formation of
any new system of national education, a Christian Legislature was
bound to reject any proposition which did not allow the Scriptures, with
out note or comment, to be the ground and basis of such system. lie
begged to assure the Noble Marquis who had spoken last, that, so far
from the children not attending the Kildare-street Society's schools,
when this new system was introduced, the fact was they were day by day
increasing. He very much regretted to hear the Noble Marquis (Lans-
downe) say that there was a combination on the part of the Protestant
Clergy against this system of national education. No doubt they did
combine, but for what purpose ? Why, to support anti uphold, with the
strongest feelings of determination, the tenets of their own religion, and
that of their country.
Lord Viscount MELBOURNE said, although the Right Rev. Prelate
had omitted to move the fourth resolution, he had certainly made a
speech very strongly in support of it, so much so, indeed, that he
seemed to have delivered the speech prepared before he resolved not to
move that fourth resolution. With respect to the question itself, he
felt some ditliculy in thinking that conscientious scruples alone ac-
tuated those who came forward to attack these schools. He could
not help feAing that political feeling was mixed up largely in it.
The system now impugned was brought forward by a Noble Friend of
his (Lord Stanley) in 1831, immediately atter that expression of popu-
lar opinion which so completely overthrew that party, which was then
an aai.reform party ; but which now called itself Conse, vative—which
turnedthem upside down, and left them in a prostrate and unhealthy
position, from which they imagined that the only mode to raise them-
selves was by appea'ing to the religious feelings of the cxrununi, y, and
excite a strong party feeling by that means. That was the system upon
which they had from that time forward continued to act. It was said that
the effect of this system was to encourage Ronian Catholics and to dis-
courage Protestantism. He (Lord Melbourne) was sorry to say that
there were too many who seemed to think that the mere education of
Roman Catholic children was an encouragement to Catholicism. Such
at least seemed to ye the opinion of the metropolitan Bishop, of Mr.
G wlburn, and Dr. Everett. Another circumstance which tended to
excite the very strong feeling now existing was, that the opponents of
this system had been beaten. If they had been beaten it was their own
fault for having engaged in an unwise and unreasonable battle. lie
hoped those Noble Lords who were about to vote for these resolutions
would consider the situation in which they placed themselves by so
doing. It seemed to him that they had much better continue the pre-
sent system than make a grant for the education of Roman Catholics,
over the administration of which they would have no control. He
should support themotion of the Noble Duke.

Lord DE VESCI would not abandon the hopes he entertained of the
result of the present system until a much more full and impartial trial
had been given to it.

The Bishop of CHICHESTER was understood to express a hope that
the conciliatory disposition shown by the Commissioners would soon lead
to the introduction of the Bible ungarbled into the schools, and thus
remove the strong objection entertained to the measure by the Irish clergy.
The Bishop of EXETER, in reply, had been accused of exhibiting
good tactics in postponing his motion to the present time. The Noble
Marquis was the last person who should have made such a charge, as it
was entirely owing to his not being able to state what were the intentions
of Government that the delay had occurred. The Noble Duke had said
that he did not mean to support the motion. He (the Bishop of Exeter)
felt indebted to the Noble Duke for his most powerful support—he was
pleased to show how every one of the resolutions was fully justified by
his statement The Noble Duke had given a support to the motion to-
night which no other person would have given so effectively, and hardly
any other man would have given so ably. The Right Reverend the
Bishop of Norwich had risen apparently under some emotion, and had
charged him (the Bishop of Exeter) with having positively denounced
him and others as unworthy of the seats they held. He could not pos-
sibly be justified in saying of the sort, and he would advise the Right
Reverend Prelate not to be too sensitive of being too unworthy of the
situation he held.

After a few words from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, the House
divided, when the numb,,rs were—

For the Re,olution—Contents
Non.contents

Majority — 45
Their Lordships then adjourned, at a quarter to one o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 25

The SeeAxeo took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. Carta?, from the Poor Law Commissioners, appeared at the Bar
with certain returns, which were laid on the table.
GALWAY TOWN ELECTION.
Lord MOUPETH, as Chairman of the Galway Town Election Coin-
mittee, reported that the Committee had determined that Andrew Henry
Lynch, Esq., was duly elected, and that neither the petition nor the op_
position thereto were frivolous or vexatious.
HULL ELECTION.

Mr. 0. GORE moved, that the minutes of evidence taken before the
Hull Election Committee be printed, for the purpose of founding a mo-
tion thereupon.

After a few words from Sr H. HARDINGE, the motion was
agreed to.
The Wadesley Langset and Sheffield Road Bill and the Deurles
turalization Bill were read a third time and passed.
Lord F. EGERTON brought up the report of the Committee on the
Grand Junction Railway Bill.

Mr. AG LIONBY brought up the report of the Committee respecting
the building of the Royal Exchange.
The Sheriffs of London appeared at the bar, with a petition from the
Lord Mayor and Corporation of the City of London.—Laid on the table.
DEVIZES ELECTION.
_

Lord EASTNOR, Chairman of the Devizes Election Committee, ap.
peared at the Bar and reported that the Committee had decided that
J. W. Deans Dundas was not duly elezted to serve in Parliament for the
Borough of Devizes, and that George Heneage Walker Heiteage, Esq.,
was duly elected and ought to have been returned, and that the Com-
mittee had altered the 101 l by striking off the names of several persons
who had voted at the last election.

Mr. CURRY presented a petition from certain persons employed in
the linen manufacture, Armagh, praying that the Act for the protection
of such manufacturers, which expired during the present Session, might
be renewed.

TITHES.
Sergeant JACKSON presented a petition from the Clergy of the dio-
cese of Elphin, against the proposed system for the regulation of tithes
in Ireland. Also, a petition to the same effect from the Clergy of the
diocese of Lim?rick, and against the present system of national educa-
tion in Ireland. •

Mr. GORDON presented a petition from the congregation of a Dis-
senting Chapel in Windmill-street, praying for a reduction of postage.
Mr. F. FRENCH presented a petition from students of medicine and
surgery, in King's County, in favour of the Education clauses of the
Mc-dical Charities (Ireland) Bill, and against some other of the clauses.
Mr. HARVEY presented a petition from the bookbinders of
London against the Law of Copyright Bill. Also a petition from
South Shields for the immediate abolition of Negro apprenticeship.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Churchwardens
of Islington in favour of the Bill for extending Church accommodation.
Mr. HALL presented a petition from an individual, named John
Williams, for the immediate Abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.