The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

Would exercise a little patriot‘e discrecien in merely re
Porting those speeches which were worthy ot being re-
corded, the others would soon be very materially
shortened.—(Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. HUME thought half en hour a sufficient time
that no Member ought to exceed an hour.
Sir It. PEEL was of opinion that every speech,
Would be materially improved if it were limited to one
11°11r•—(Hear, heir) Ile certainly had heard the Hon.
Member for Montrose frequently exceed that time.—
(Laughter.) He believed, however, they were all de-
linquents. There was a tendency to make speeches of
undue length, and every one must feel that a great many
Speeches would have been greatly improved if the ayrghui-s
meats of the speakers had been more condensed.
was the general impression, an 4 if every Member wo
uld
act upon it it would have a far better effect than the
the
m-
Position of any formal rule. He did not approveof
Proposition that lion. Members should not be allowed
to exceed an hour, because many Lion. Members might
think it gave them a vested right to speak during that
title, and that they were conferring a favour on the
"louse when they spoke for a more limited period.—
however,
(Laughter.) There were many speeches,
curtailment
which would have g i
reatly suffered by
e c
alluded to
speeches made neither on the
—lie
of
original motions nor in reply .
some of the speeches of Berke, Canning, and
limitothei emi-
nent men; and, therefore, by attempting . .
excesses the House would run the risk ot depriving itself
and the public of great instruction.—(Fleas, hear.) He
tins that Hon. Members would all act on the principle
laid down by the Hon. Member for Manchester. A
great deal of time might be saved if Hon. Members
would consider their arguments—(Hear, hear) —and
Particularly,when it was their intention to speak, if they
Would attend for a day or two and listen to the argu-
ments, and not repeat those already advanced and dis -
Posed of.—(Hear, hear.) By so doing they would effect
a reform much more useful than by any dry rule which
Might be imposed. The great principle oa which the
'louse ought to act was, to make no distinction between
the members of the Government and other Members—
between those who favoured the House with original
!notions and those who did not. What did the Hon.
Member mean by a Minister speaking in reply ? Did
he mean every Minister, or merely the one who
Might immediately follow the mover ? It fre-
quently happened that a Minister closed the debate.
Now supposing the Minister following the mover to
exceed one hour, was any other Minister to speak,
or was it intended that only one should address the
Rouse ? The adoption of a rule of this kind, without
mature consideration, would lead to great inconvenience.
It was generally admitted that too much time was con-
sumed iu speeches, and that too little was devoted to
business ; and the Hon. Gentleman opposite seemed
ready to offer himself as a sacrifice in the first in-
stance.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—If the Right Hon. Gentleman will, I
Will.—(Loud laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL—I will.—(Continued laughter.) As
the Hon. Member took the opportunity of so frequently
addressing the House he trusted that he would set a
good example, and would not be offended if, at the ex-
fliration of some fifty minutes, he should receive a gentle
int that his hour was almost gone.—(Laughter.) He
trusted that those who had been in the habit of speak-
ing ten minutes would adhere to that rule, and that
ishose who usually spoke an hour and a half would con.
ne themselves much within the limits prescribed.—
(Rear, hear, and laughter.)
Sir R. INGLIS said the object of the Hon. Member
was to save the time of the House, but it was not at all
Unlikely that it would have the effect of making the
lisaLtimum time proposed the minimum.—(Laughter.)
:elle% COBDEN, as a member of the Committee,,
v:ishd to state the grounds on which he should support
toe motion. The Committee were generally of opinion
that the delay in the conducting of public business was
a great grievance, and every one left the Committee
with the belief that very little had been done to remedy
the evil. A similar motion to the present received the
support of four members out of twelve, and he did not
:link that a very strong feeling prevailed against it; but
c general impression seemed to be that the evil would
be best corrected by the force of public opinion and the
discretion of Hon. Members. The Right Hon. Baronet
!teemed to rest his hopes on some vague understanding
that
tllon. Members would limit their speeches to a
certain
time. He (Mr. Cobden) had no faith in any
such understanding being observed, and he believed that
113 much time was likely to be wasted in the present as
in former sessions. No one could deny that Honour-
able Members were often in the habit of re-
peating arguments which had been used by others,
and the fact was the House was flooded with repe-
tition.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden) had fre-
quently abstained from speaking when the arguments
which he had intended to use were so well put by other
Ron. Members. With respect to the suggestion of the
Noble Lord that a charge might be brought against a
Minister, such charge must be founded on some public
policy, and his colleagues would have to defend him on
public grounds, and therefore it would not rest with one
individual to answer a three hours' speech, but his po-
licy might be defended by a dozen parties. The mem-
bers of the Government might be attacked by the whole
Rouse, and as they formed only a small portion of the
Rouse, he did not see any injustice in affording them
some extra portion of time.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that a limitation of time would much improve the
quality of the speeches.—(Hear, bear.) The great
fault was that they were too diffuse; that Hon. Members
did not keep sufficiently to the question, and were too
apt to quote from Hansard, and the reports to which all
4°ll. Members had access. If an Hon. Member had
anything to say, he could say it in an hour. It was
Only when an Hon. Member had nothing to say, and
11.11 d
,not know what he was going to say, that he was
The to speak for more than an hour.—(Laughter.)
lhe ease of Burke was the most unhappy instance that
Fouli have been cited by the Right Hon. Baronet ; for
it was recorded that he generally emptied the House
when he rose. He was called the " diuner-bell" of the
Muse; and it was said that
" He went on refining,
And thought of convincing while they thought of
dinin
and he thought every one must admit that if Burke's
llopeetiecrtiShtidbeencut into four they would have been
speeches.—(Hear, hear.)
thuat to consider,
NEWDEGATE begged the House
they limited the prlege of discussing
givereat
questions in that House the result would be to ad-
v netaeo to
b assemblies out of the House, who would con-
sider the right of discussion as solely confined to them-
offteeeNoZ.na look upon that House as the mere record-
- cated a their enactteents.—(Hear, hear.) He depre-
what any appeal on this question to those who recorded
both din that House, because it was only just that
pees of a
question should be heard, and there had
been instances when he had occasion to lament that the
Public had not had that opportunity.—(Hear.)
The House divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Gibson's proposition
•Against it ........... .
Majority aeainst the restrictien —34
THE S.
Lord Fr "VANE brought upADDREthe report on the Address
IQ
On the
Majesty.
question that the report be read a second time,
trurauseer
faorrqoucies of GRANBY said he hoped he would be
upying the attention of the House whilst
Thr ads a few observations ou the Speech from the
°tic • That Speech did not place the peculiar position
eanzda prospects of the country in a fair light. It greatly
...._ggerated the prosperity of the manufacturing and
'o'D'oloutnercial classes, whilst it made no mention whatever
r agricultural and colonial distress. With respect
0, the paragraph which stated that " the present aspect
tit an irs" had enabled her Majesty" to make large reduc-
es on the estimates of last year, he was quite sure that every one in the House would be most anxious for such
reductions when they were practicable, but he must be
permitted to ask what prospects this year held out which
would warrant them in reducing the estimates. when the
'",Luse was called upon last year to increase them ?
(Rear, hear.) He looked in vain for any distinction be-
tween 1848 and 1849. The Noble Lord at the head of
the Government said that last year there was a convul-
sion, but there was no convulsion when he proposed
increased estimates. At that time the Hon. Member
for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had just made his
famous prophecy that there was no probability of war.
—(Hear, hear.) But what was the present aspect of
affairs?—(Hear, hear.) Let them look to the Speech,
and they would see announcements there that a rebellion
of a formidable character had broken out in the Pun-
jaub—(Hear, hear)—and that a spirit of disaffection
still existed in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At the same
time, the state of the colonies was most distressing;
many of them were on the very verge of insurrection.
Was it wise or prudent, then, to select such a time as
this for large reductions in the army and navy?—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to the omission of any mention of
the distress in the agricultural districts, he could not
suppose the Government were ignorant of its existence,
or of its intensity. Did they imagine that the growing
conviction that the free-trade system had failed would be
crushed by such means as these?—(Hear, hear.) He re-
membered well the prophecies which were made when
those measures were passed, that wages would rise and
bread be had for half-price. How had these prophe-
cies been verified? He would just show the House
',hat was the condition of the labouring classes in
Jeteiceetershire and Lincolnshire before and since the
ti?sing of these measures. In those counties the old
ijnges were twelve shillings. For a family of five per-
let them take—
Malf a stone of coarse flour to each mouth, at s. d.
26, 2d. ••• 5 5
••• ••• ••• •••
31b• of meat, at bid. 1

Free trade Total expenses per week
wages, 10s.
Flour, 2i stones at ls. 10d.
Ilettt) at sid. ...

to know also whether any account of the tariff of Por- •
tugal or Spain had been received since the last assem-
blage of Parliament ? Last session a motion was made
requiring our consuls to send over those tariffs, but those
orders never had been obeyed. lie was the more sur-
prised at this because our friendly rela'ions with Por-
tu gall never had been disturbed, and there was a com-
petent person at the Court of Lisbon to furnish such
documents, and, although our intercourse with the
Court of Spain was broken, he understood from the
Noble Lord at the close of last session that we still re-
tained a Consul there perfectly capable of discharging
his duty in protecting the subjects of this realm, and in
watching over the interests of our trade and commerce.
Whilst he was upon. this subject he might be per-
mitted to answer the inquiry made by the Noble Lord
(Palmerston) the other night, as to whether, in revenge
for the affront we had received from Spain, he (Mr.
Bankes) would go to war with her ?—(Hear, and a
laugh.) The Noble Lord at the same time assured him
that he must not take to himself the credit of having
caused the expulsion of the Spanish Minister. He
begged to assure the Noble Lord he never assumed nor
desired to assume any credit in the matter, for in his
mind there never had been a more bungling piece of
business, nor ono less likely to vindicate the honour of
. _

this country. The Minister of Spain was allowed to re-
main hero for many days after our representative at the
Court of Spain had arrived in London, affording a proof
of the greatest insult one nation could inflict upon
another.—(Hear, hear.) It he (Mr. Banker) had had
the management of affairs, he trusted the Spanish
Minister would not have been allowed to remain here, as
Ambassador, for as many hours. M. Isturitz was, no
doubt, a gentlemen of the highest character, fit to repre-
sent so gallant a nation ; but he should
have been at once informed that he could no
longer remain here as the Minister of Spain. In
reply to the Noble Lord's inquiry, he begged to say
that he would not go to war with Spain; but, if he had
the power, he would find out who was the originator of
the insult she had offered to this country. The real
originator might be found, perhaps, in England, sitting
at that moment on the Treasury bench. The Noble
Lord had been pleased to say that the Opposition had
become a war party, a charge which came with a very
ill grace from the Noble Lord ; for, if they were open
to such a charge, it was because they had taken the
word of Ministers for it that the estimates of last year
were necessary for the public service, and had assisted
in carrying those estimates through Parliament, when
the effect of an oppositb course would have been that the
plans of the Government would have been defeated, and
Ministers would have lost their seats in the Cabinet.
The words of the Noble Lord were, that the force
then proposed was " necessary to a man."
" Who, it had been said, " asked them to con-
gratulate the Crown upon the improving state of
commerce, manufactures, and the revenue?" With
reference to the expression of " satisfaction,"
which appeared on that subject in the Address, he
(Mr. Banker) could not join in that expression when he
found that not one Member representing the manufac-
turing interest had said there was a progressive im-
provement in manufactures. Would the Honourable
Members for Manchester and the West Riding of York-
shire say that the manufacturing interests were in such
a state as to warrant expressions of congratulation?
But, till they did so, could Ministers expect Honourable
Gentlemen, from complaisance, to join in the expressions
of satisfaction employed in the Address? With respect
to the revenue, what was the result of the balance-sheet
put that morning into the hands of Honourable Mem-
bers? The last item was the excess of expenditure over
income, amounting to 796,419/.—(Hear, hear)—then
there was a sum of China money, 539,3051., a casual
source of revenue; and the produce of the sale of old
stores, 308,4151, was an item of the same kind. Yet
Ministers called on the House, not to congratulate the
Crown, but to express satisfaction at a progressive im-
provement of the revenue. Another million had been
struck off by the removal of the corn duties; and the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had now bound himself
never to resort again to that source of revenue. " Would
you not have done better," they had been told, " had you
taken a fixed duty?" But now the Noble Lord said the
fixed duty would have dwindled down.
Lord J. RUSSELL—You would have had it now.
Mr. BANKES thought that was the most satisfac-
tory part of the prospects for the revenue he had yet
heard of.—(Hear, hear.) When there was no more old
stores to fall back upon, the Noble Lord would turn to
a fixed duty. Yet it was in such a state of-affairs
that the House were to be called on, the day after to-
morrow, to make a new grant for Ireland.
Mr. M. GIB6ON believed it was true, as now stated,
that the English trade in Brazil or the personal rights
of individuals connected with that trade were not in so
satisfactory a state as they ought to be.—(Hear, hear.)
But he attributed that state of matters to the hostile
policy pursued towards Brazil with reference to the
slave-trade. They were seizing Brazilian ships under
the authority of an Act passed by this House
without the sanction of any treaty; they were acting
only on the principle of might over right. But could
it be matter for surprise if some difficulties still remained
for trade to contend with, difficulties which had
been created by persevering in a system of re-
striction ? Every one felt that there was an
improvement in manufactures and trade.—(Hear, hear.)
But every one knew at the same time that it required
all the skill, enterprise, and industry that could be
brought to bear on the trade of the country to keep it in
a state of progressive prosperity. The country gentle-
men had, as the friends of tenant-occupiers, taken an
extraordinary course. First, they did not ask protec-
tion. Tbat was evaded. The Honourable Member for
Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) never mentioned the
word, but spoke of reciprocity.—(Hear, hear.) But
Honourable Gentlemen threw censure oa the Govern-
ment, because it pointed to retrenchment and economy.
The smallest hint that there would be economy in the
public expenditure, and reduction in the national arma-
ments, was received in a tone calculated to excite sur-
prise. Those Hon. Gentlemen ought to answer the
question put by the Hon. Member for Montrose. What
would they have for the farmer?—(Hear, hear.) They
came forward as the friends of tenant•occupiers, and
yet did all they could to discourage the Executive from
retrenchment and economy.—(Hear, hear.) The farmers
called for the repeal of the malt tax; an Hon. Member
from Essex had made an appeal on the subject. How
could such taxes be reduced unless the expenditure were
reduced? He was connected with agriculture himself;
he felt his interests in the hands of Hon. Gentlemen ,•
and he must be permitted to say that if they continued
their present course the country would hold them re-
sponsible for the obstruction of economical measures,
and the maintenance of large and unnecessary establish-
ments. He should be sorry to see agitation carried beyond
the point of giving instruction—(lronical cheers)—be-
cause there could not be any safe legislation which was
not founded on public opinion, and it was necessary to
form a sound public opinion. The Royal Speech and the
Address spoke of " attachment to our institutions," and
of " the Constitution, founded on the principles of free-
dom and justice." That was rather a lofty flight. He
wished the tone of the speech had been a little more
qualified. He did not like the " matchless Consti-
tution" doctrine. He thought there were faults, and
there were institutions to which there was anything
but attachment. He did not believe the Roman
Catholics of Ireland were attached to the Established
Church of Ireland, or the Dissenters to the Established
Church of England. But he wished to know how Muck
had been the free gifts of the Government to the people
—how far their privileges under the constitution had
been wrested from their rulers by the strenuous efforts
of the people themselves ? Therefore ho did not dis-
courage the fair and legitimate discussion of public
questions. The Hon. Member for the West Riding of
Yorkshire, in calling attention to the expenditure, was
assisting the Government to resist the pressure of pro-
fessions which, if the Executive Lad not something to
lean against, must hurry it into a reckless and extrava-
gant course. He would only further express the hope
that the Government would persevere in its commercial
policy, and remove the differential duties which still
deformed the tariff. The tenant farmers had a right to
say the principle of free competition should be carried
out.—(hear, hear.) He hoped Ministers would bring in
a good and whole measure on the navigation laws; if it
were as complete as the measure for the repeal of the
corn-laws, they would earn and merit the gratitude of
the country.
Sir J. TYRELL contended that in noticing the omis-
sions of the Royal Speech the Hon. Gentlemen were doing
only what the Noble Lords opposite had done when
they used to tear royal speeches to pieces. Seeing the
Indecent haste with which the Government had adopted
the financial scheme of the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, it might be imagined that they were actuated by
a desire to vamp up his character as a prophet. If Mi-
nisters adopted the Hon. Member's plan, the least they
could
do was to give him a place on the Treasury
bench. The Government might depend upon it that
the agriculturists would not' be destroyed without an
effort being made on their behalf. Meetings on an ex-
tensive scale were about to take place in the agricultural
c t s,
the
ed
aidt he f causesom some
noble
theh hl e landed
convertsin interest
anotherhad pllatelyae
obtained in e.
Was it fair that agriculture should be exposed to com-
petition with the whole world when at the present
moment several articles of manufacture were protected
by a duty of 10 per cent. ?—(A Member on the Minis-
terial side—" Not cotton articles.") He did not allude
to cotton ; some persons had nothing but cotton in their
beads.—(A laugh.) lie had felt it his duty to support
Ministers in their estimates last session, but in conse-
quence of their conduct upon that point ho would sup-
port them no longer, and would regard the proceedings
of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer with great caution.
Mr. WODEHOUSE expressed his concurrence in all
that had fallen from his Noble Friend (the Marquis of
Granby) with reference to the distressed state of agri-
culture, and declared that there was every prospect that
all persons connected with the occupancy of land would
be exposed to intense suffering.
Mr. FRE WEN also said that the agricultural interest
was in a very depressed state, in proof of which he re-
ferred to the fact that the Noble Lord (the Member for
South Durham) who moved the Address had at present
several farms in Sussex thrown upon his hands. In the.
Weald of Sussex and West Kent it was impossible to
find tenants for farms, even at greatly reduced rents.
Half the farmers in Kent would be unable to pay the
hop duty.
Mr. J . O'CONNELL explained that in what he had
said on the first night of the session he did not mean to
say that Lord Minto had encouraged the promoters of
disorder in the Papal States; he merely stated the fact
that Lord Minto received Sterbini, Cicerovaccio, and
other agitators at his house. What, he asked, would
have
been said, if a foreign envoy to this country had
received the celebrated Coffey at his residence?
which Mr.
agricultureP.BENN E-r bore testimony to the distress under
was
goodla la o
qualityurie „ ands statedfor3s that
rquar-
ter. he had
lately seen wheat ofP
The farmers were con; teo discharge pe many of
their labourers, and to reduce the wages of those whom
ret4ined.

Mr. HENRY was happy to have it in his power to in-
form the House that the manufacturing interest was at
present in a state of considerabl prosperity. He was
connected with manufacturing establishments in Glas-
gow, Yorkshire, Belfast, and other places, and was also
a considerable exporter, and therefore could speak upon
this point with some degree of experience.—(clear.)
The evidences of the fact were unmistakeable, and any
person who would take the trouble to make inquiry upon
the subject must ascertain that a course of prosperity was
dawning upon the manufacturing interest.
Mr. HUME said it appeared from the confession of
the Hon. Member for Essex that the country gentlemen
had supported large establishments, and that without
their aid the Government could not have maintained
them. That fact would not be lost upon the country.
The country gentlemen who had taken part in the pre-
sent discussion had not explained how Ministers could
serve the tenant-farmer unless by reducing the expendi-
ture to the lowest rate at which the Government of the
country could possibly be carried on. It was his opinion
that matters were assuming a better aspect in the manu-
facturing districts, and for that reason he would assent
to the 11th paragraph of the Address; but he could
not admit that the Speech from the Throne was alto-
gether satisfactory. lie concurred with the Honourable
Member for Surrey in thinking that the Speech should
either be treated as a document unworthy of notice, or
should contain a plain and honest exposition of what
Ministers intended to do in the course of the session.
The debate on the first night of the session turned
chiefly on foreign policy, almost to the exclusion of
all consideration of domestic affairs. The Noble Lord
at the head of foreign affairs made a dexterous reply,
from which it appeared that England had assumed
the character of police-officer to the whole world, and
that whenever a king quarrelled with his subjects we
were to step in and put matters to rights.—(Hear, hear.)
He begged to remind the Houso that in the course of
last session several hundred petitions were presented
praying for economy, together with other petitions,
signed by 2,500,000 persons, praying for a reform of the
House of Commons. There was also a paragraph de-
ploring the insurrection in Ireland, and desiring a con-
tinuance of the powers that now existed for the preser-
vation of peace in that country. In the present condition
of Ireland he would not object to that continuance; for,
in a time of great difficulty, the Noble Lord who had had
those extraordinary powers confided to him had exercised
them with great discretion and judgment. He thought,
however, that they ought not to be continued longer than
was absolutely necessary, and that the Government
ought to apply itself to the prevention of their neces-
sity in future. Now, with regard to England; was it
not the demand for reform that rendered her unquiet last
year? and were they now to shrink from inquiry into
the revenue, or to refuse relief from the burdens of tax-
ation? Yet the Speech said nothing of the kind. It
spoke of reductions in the different establishments, which
he supposed meant bringing them within the income; but
no notice whatever was taken of the revision:of taxation,
although that bad been promised at the time the income-
tax was passed. Petitions had been presented last year
for an increased representation of the people. Now, he
found that in Canada, where the responsibility of self-
government existed, Lord Elgin had conducted affairs
with great satisfaction to the people, and on the 18th of
January, in his Speech to the Assembly, he said he was
disposed to believe that an increase in the representation
would be attended with considerable advantage, and he
recommended that subject to their best consideration.
And why did he do so? Because last year there were
petitions from all parts of the country canting for
a change. He admitted that it was gratifying
on the 10th of April last to see all the respec-
table classes standing forward for the preservation of
order; but what led to it ?—The demand for change by
the working classes. He believed, however, that much
more had been made of that than it deserved, and that
advantage was taken of it to increase the military and
naval establishments. But he would admit that if the
Government refused all concessions as regarded the re-
presentation of the country they must be prepared by
force to keep down the spirit of the people. There was
only one other point that he would notice—that in the
Speech the state of the colonies was entirely overlooked.
There was an allusion to the rebellion in the Punjaub,
but none to the rebellion at Ceylon or at the Cape of
Good Hope—(Hear, hear)—and when he reflected that
in these two rebellions more lives were lost than in the
insurrection in Ireland, he thought that the omission
must have been made to cover the misconduct which
led to them. To the tenth paragraph of the Address
(which was to this effect—" That, whilst rejoicing
that the insurrection in Ireland has not been renewed,
we unite with her Majesty in deploring the ex-
istence of a spirit of disaffection; and that our serious
consideration will be devoted to the intimation of her
Majesty, that her Majesty is compelled with regret to
ask for a continuance, for a limited time, of those powers
which in the last session, were deemed by Parliament to
be necessary for the preservation of the public tran-
quillity"), therefore he should propose to add the fol-
lowing words:—" And we assure your Majesty that we
shall, without delay, direct our serious attention to the
consideration of the rebellions which have unhappily
occurred in the course of last year in Ceylon and at the
Cape of Good Hope, in order to ascertain the extent as
welt as the causes of such rebellious; and we shall also
endeavour to ascertain the causes of the distress and dis-
content that exists in British Guiana, the Mauritius, and
other places." And to the next paragraph (which was
as follows:—" That we most sincerely share with her
Majesty the satisfaction which her Majesty feels at the
revival of commerce from those shocks which at the
commenc.:ment of last session were to be deplored;
that we learn with gratification that the condition of
the manufacturing districts is likewise more en-
couraging than it has been for a 'considerable period,
and that the state of the revenue is one of pro-
gressive improvement"), he should propose to add an
amendment, alluding to the unequal pressure of taxa-
tion, the extension of the franchise, and, what hescon-
sidere I most important, the reform of that House. He
did not wish to take the sense of the House on these
amendments, as he had not given notice of his intention
to more them, but he felt so strongly what ought to be
done, that he was anxious to put them on record.
The Address was then ;read, and on the 10th para-
graph,
Mr. HUME moved his first amendment.
Mr. G. BANKES seconded the motion. He concurred
with the Hon. Gentleman that matters such as the
amendment referred to ought to have been notified in
the Speech from the Throne, and, if they were not, they
should be mentioned in the Address. He concurred in
the amendment, and if his Hon. Friend did not divide
the House upon it, it was because, from not knowing
what the Speech would be, he was unable to give notice
of his intention to move the amendment. That also was
the reason why some friends of his were absent the
other night, for his Honourable Friend near bins
would have had many more votes if they had had the
opportunity of giving them more notice.
The amendment was then put and negatived without
a division.
On the second amendment being moved by the Hon.
Member for Montrose,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he approved of the amend-
ment, but ho was at a loss to understand the use of pro-
posing this and the former if the sense of the House
were not taken upon them. They were too good to be
allowed to drop; and he therefore appealed to his Hon.
Friend not to permit this one to be swamped without
taking the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. HUME said he had pledged himself not to divide
the House upon this amendment, but any Hon. Member
could insist on a division if he wished it.
The amendment was then put, and Mr. S. CRAWFORD
calling for a division, the gallery was cleared, but after a
short interval the door was re-opened, and we found
that the, amendment had been negatived without a di-
vision.
The other paragraphs of the Address were agreed to
without amendment, and the Address was ordered to be
presented to her Majesty by such Members as are of her
Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE IRISH POOR-

_ _
LAW.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he rose, pursuant 1,
to notice, to propose the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee, with a view to an inquiry into the operation of the
Irish poor-law. His Hon. and Gallant Friend the
Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne) had, in the
course of the preceding session, proposed a motion simi-
lar to that which he (Sir W. Somerville) now had the
honour of moving. That motion, however, did not meet
with the approbation of the House and the Government
were very much blamed by many Irish Members for op-
posing it. He (Sir W. Somerville) thought then, and
was of the same opinion now, that an inquiry into a
law which had not at that time been fairly tried, and
which inquiry must have been founded upon in-
sufficient information, could not have led to any
satisfactory result, and would probably have obliged
the Government to ask for the appointment of a
fresh Committee during the present session, to obtain
fresh information on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) But
the case was different now. A year had elapsed, and
although in the working and in the operation of a law
of such vast importance a year was not a long period,
yet so eventful had been the past year that the ordinary
experience of many years might be said to be crowded
into it. He was prepared now to redeem the pledge
given by the Government OR more than one occasion
during last session, to propose a Committee to inquire
into this
withthism most important psourrtpanriteeanfdrodm Irish Members,elicatesubjectH
He
thathad
st
theui
rnet
se:n
Governmentdane dd t ohapvuer s
shoulduste a
stated
on is
atwth
they were disappointed in the course which the Govern.
mm that
ee nahiosan
teqeuahel
tsaetviroeantpi.
or
onps Ito
atwehdaesytheir
-
tended to make in the Irish poor-law.—(Cheers from
Irish Members.) If the Government had pursued that
course they would have been justly chargeable, and
would have most certainly incurred the most eloquent and
indignant denunciations from the Irish Members, for hays
ing forfeited the pledges which, as he had stated, they
had on more than one occasion given during the course
of last session. But independently of this consideration,
he was of opinion that an inquiry into the operation of
the poor-law in Ireland would now be exceedingly pro-
per and desirable. There was not a single individual
either in Ireland or in the United Empire who was not
interested in the well-working of this law.—( Hear,
hear.) And such being the case, and the social con-
dition of many portions of the province of Ireland being
so much disturbed, was it not tair that an opportunity
should be afforded to gentlemen connected with those
districts to come forward and produce any evidence
which would throw a light on the particular views which
they held with respect to the New Poor-law? If upon
inquiry it should prove that those views were not well
founded, their rejection would be more readily acqui-
esced in after the inquiry by a Select Committee than
if the House at once proceeded to legislation.—
(Flear, hear.) It was possible that the Government had
superior means of information on this subject, but that
was no reason why gentlemen connected with Ire-
' land should not be: afforded an opportunity. of stating
their views, and of being certain that those views should
undergo the meet patient eeruideratie%—(Sear, hear.)

He would abstain from entering upon an investigation of
the disputed questions connected with the administration
of the poor-law in Ireland. The inquiry into those dis-
puted points of administration had better be left to the
Committee. He would only say that, although the Go-
vernment would hold fast to the general principles of
the law, he was of opinion that many improvements in it
would be found to be practicable and desirable.—(Hear,
hoar.) What these improvements were would be better
stated before the Committee, and he would not go into
them now. It had been said that the course taken by
the Government would only delay legislation, but so far
as the Government were concerned there was no wish
for delay. This was now but the third day of the ses-
sion, and he proposed the appointment of this Select
Committee with a view to speedy legislation.—
(Hear, hear.) No effort should be wanting on the
part of the Government to bring the proceed-
ings connected with this question to a speedy issue, and
to further any future legislation with the view to place
the law on a more satisfactory footing.—(Cheers.) He
made no doubt that the same desire of speedy legislation
and of improving the law would animate every gentle-
man who might serve upon the Committee, and he did
not despair of Parliament being able to come, during the
course of the present session, to a satisfactory conclusion,
and to make several improvements in the general law
for the relief of the Irish poor.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for the appoint-
ment of a Select Committee on the Irish poor-law.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that it had been the object of
the Irish Members last year to direct the attention of
the House to the nature and inevitable results of
the ruinous legislation pursued by the House, by which
the property of three-fourths of the Irish land-
lords had been annihilated, and whatever energy
and self-reliance had existed among the farmers
and peasantry had been destroyed. Referring a sub-
ject to a Select Committee was always understood to be
another mode of shelving it for the rest of the session,
and the present would be, he feared, no exception to
that rule. There never was any law in any country so
universally detested by both the ratepayers and thesre-
cipients of relief as the Irish poor law. The average
amount of poor-rate in Connaught was 2s. 7d. in the
pound on a valuation which was nearly double what it
ought to be, while the average rate throughout England
was only Is. 6d. in the pound. In several parts of Ire-
land the rate was proportionately heavy as compared
with the poor-rate in England. He desired to ask,
would it not be better to leave their lands untitled, like
much of the land in the county of Mayo, rather than go
on as a large proportion of the people of Ireland were
now obliged to proceed? It was thus that many of the
people of Ireland felt, and it was in that spirit that they
said it was better for them to do that than- have the
fruits of their hard labour torn from them by soldiery
and police. By the provisions of English legisla-
tion those who had the administration of the poor-
law in Ireland were called upon to do four times
the amount of duty that was imposed upon simi-
lar functionaries in England; and yet the Irish were
taunted with being unfit to manage their own affairs.
This was one ground of complaint; another was, that
Government did not state whether or not they would
support the recommendation made by the • Commis-
sioners. Before he sat down he wished to remind the
English Members of that House that the Irish land-
owners had not purchased and had not inherited their
estates on any such terms as were now sought to be im-
posed on them. The English had no right to bring the
Irish proprietors up to their level in the way of poor-
law taxation. When he admitted the right of the poor
of the country to be supported by the property of the
country, he meant that the whole property of the
country should support them; not that the land alone
should bear the burden. He felt convinced that by a
proper system of rating, by making workhouses self-
supporting, by subjecting all property to a due share of
the poor-rates, the whole expense need not exceed
500,0001. a year, and the rating not be above ls. in the
pound. Finally, he would add, that some declaration
ought to come from the Government calculated to give
confidence to the agricultural class in Ireland, and he did
not hesitate to say that if they were not inspired with
some degree of confidence at the present season, the
greater part of Munster and Connaught would remain
unsown.
Mr. FAGAN observed, that one strong reason in fa-
vour of the present motion was, that there existed so
much variety of opinion on the subject of the poor-law.
At the meeting of the Irish Members which took place
recently there were as many opinions as there were
Members present. The Hon. Member for Waterford
was in favour of a townland rating; he (Mr. Fagan) was
against it, and in favour of a modified labour-rate, as
had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Stroud.
The Hon. Member for Meath was against any poor-law
whatever—(A laugh)—while the Hon. Member for Tip-
peracy contended for a general union rate, to be imposed
for the benefit of the aged and infirm, at the same time
that a local rate was to be paid for the able-bodied poor.
He did believe that the complaints against the poor-law
in Ireland were founded ichiefly upon the effect of the
abnormal condition in which the country was after three
years of famine. In that time 40,000,000/. of the capital
of the nation was consumed, and they should rather
legislate on a state of things such as the country was
likely to present three years hence, than on that which
now existed. In his opinion, the agitation against the
poor-law was caused mainly by the effects of the fa-
mine; and it was hardly fair to render taxation per-
manent merely on account of a temporary visitation of
Providence.
Major BLACKALL said that the Irish landlords had
no wish to shift the responsibility of supporting the poor
off their own shoulders. Although it was patent to all
the Irish landlords that the Bill was working to their
disadvantage, that fact might not be evident to English
Members, and he therefore wished for inquiry. Ho hoped
they would not make the present state or Ireland the
basis of their legislation, but rather take it as it was
likely to be in a few years hence; neither ought they to
legislate upon the grounds which the condition of any
district or province presented.
Mr. BRIGHT said that although he had no fault to
find with the proposition then made to the House by
her Majesty's Government, he still could not overlook
the fact that there was an extraordinary unanimity
of complaint upon that subject. But Honourable
Members who came into that House from Ireland de-
ceived themselves if they thought that the corn-law—
(A laugh)—he meant the poor-law—he had recently been
thinking so much abut the corn-laws, that perhaps
the House would excuse his having inadvertently used
the one term instead of the other. What he meant to
insist upon was this, that lion. Members who come from
Ireland greatly deceived themselves if they supposed
that defects in the poor-law had any very large share in
producing the misery with which that country was
afflicted. It was not the poor-law, but it was excessive
pauperism which produced those results. They well
knew that the English poor-law never had been the sub-
ject of so much complaint as the Irish, but if in any dis •
trict of England there happened to exist anything like
the extreme pauperism that was to be found in some
parts of Ireland, the English poor-law would be com-
plained of just as loudly as the Irish. He was happy to
hear it said that the property of Ireland was not indis-
posed to support the poverty of Ireland; but he did most
earnestly hope that Hon. Members would feel that shift-
ing the burden of the poor-law from one part of the
country to another, or endeavours to shift the staff of the
poor-law functionaries from place to place, would afford no
substantial relief to any quarter. There was no rational
ground for seeking to throw burdens upon the mort-
gagees in the manner which the Hon. Member near him
suggested. If the Hon. Member or any other person
borrowed money of an English capitalist, and agreed to
pay for that a certain interest, surely he ought to pay it.
If he refused to do so there could be no doubt that cir-
cumstances would soon compel him to borrow a fresh
loan on such terms as would give the lender not only a
sufficient interest for the use of his money, but also a
sufficient sum in addition to meet the amount of poor-
rates with which he as mortgagee might be charged. It
would in the end come to the same thing, and the Hon.
Member might be assured of this, that Ireland would
never get rid of her difficulties till
she got rid of
her poverty. He was certain of this, that until la-
bour was applied to land, until industry was
brought to the land so as to develop the
resources of the country, things would go on
in their present course, and the Irish landlords would be
eaten up. Further he would say, that there was not
wealth enough in all England to meet the necessities of
the Irish people if that race were able to do nothing for
themselves.—([lear, hear.) Land in Ireland was so
overwhelmed with encumbrances that it could not be
made to produce as land ought.—(Hear, hear.) They
had much discussion in that House on the Bill of last
year for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates; and
in that House it had been made somewhat better than it
was in the shape in which it originally came to them.
But the Government was now unabla to show that
that Bill had done one particle of good ; on the con-
trary, he believed it had done much mischief. In his
judgment, it was not of the least use to any one except
the Irish lawyers. Legislation of that kind, or of any
other, would not be of the slightest service to the Irish
people until Parliament set itself fairly to the work of
grappling with the land question in Ireland. There was
no use in landlord or tenant Bills; the profits of labour
and of land must be made to support the poor of Ireland
or everything would be eaten up.—(Hear.)
Mr. STAFFORD agreed with the Hon. Member for
Manchester, that nothing could be done till the laud
question was settled. Two years ago he had the painful
duty of stating the same arguments as that put forward
by the Hon. Member for Manchester, and he believed
that neither the Encumbered Estates Bill nor the Far-
mers' Estate Bill would work in many provinces until
t
they dealt with the Irish poor in the manner he then in-
sisted upon. He would direct Hon. Gentlemen's atten-
tion to a paragraph which appeared last week in a news-
paper, showing that there was no indisposition on the
rp
theae
tr
et
.of mt
worst
aeppnrpooevifa rneede propertytihaa Ireland
eni
lna ald the
worstret Ireland
was an island called
electoral division of
to pay
pay a fair poor-
Arranmore, where such a vast number of paupers was to
be found that it was impossible to know how to deal with
them. A Belfast capitalist came forward and offered to
buy the island, which belonged to a Noble Marquis, but he
required, first, not that Government money should be ad-
vanced, or that he should be relieved from the poor-rate,
but that the island should be made an electoral division
of itself. The Poor-law Commissioners acceded to the
request ; the island was purchased by the Belfast capi-
talist, and the work of improvement and employment
was progressing there. Here was a case where the re-
sources of the land were developed, arising out of the
just resolution of the question—what return a man was
to get for his money? Hon. Gentlemen in England
would be astonished to find, on getting up in the morn-
ing, that the boundaries of their possessions were altered,
half being placed in one district and half in another—
but such was the case in Ireland. The lines of division
were drawn without reference to the parishes, sometimes
without reference to the counties, in the most random
manner. It was formerly stated that these lines were
irremovable, but the proposition for smaller areas,
60014114 iXt 1f347, wee ;mind Teith flog

in 1848, and now a boundary commission was
appointed. Fe believed it was not premature to state
that the tendency of that commission's report would
be to make a very considerable reduction in the area of
taxation for poor-law purposes. The Right Hotly Gen-
tleman (Sir W. Somerville) said that the Government
were upbraided because, having promised a Committee,
they had kept their word. Now all that he (Mr. Staf-
ford) said when the Noble Lord mentioned his intention
of granting a Committee on the Irish Poor-law was, that
he suspended his opinion until he should know what the
Ministerial arrangements might be ; and what he com-
plained of was, not only that the Government had
hitherto refused to lay any Bill before the House for the
consideration of that Committee, but that they had also
refused to specify what portions of the Irish Poor-law
they were determined to take their stand on, thereby
shrinking from their responsibility as a Government, and
giving rise, probably, to unfounded hopes and vague
misapprehensions in Lthe public mind. Their conduct
tended to confirm the report generally spread, that they
had had recourse to this Committee because they were,
with respect to the Irish Poor-law, a divided Govern-
ment, and delayed legislation, because they were incom-
petent to come to a decision.—(Hear.)
Col. DUNNE thought that the difference of opinion
existing on the subject of the Jrish poor-law justified
the Government in nominating a Committee. Last year
he had moved for a Committee on the subject, and the
step now taken by the Government proved that he was
right. The great mistake was to suppose that a poor-
law sufficient for an ordinary state could operate well
under circumstances of extraordinary and extreme des-
titution from want of employment, and iii some of the
districts of Ireland the whole production of the land
would be found insufficient for the support of the popu-
lation. The Hon. Member, after referring to the case
of the Marquis of Sligo, who, ho stated, paid 2,5001.
for poor-rate, besides 6,0001. for family charges, and to
other instances, observed that it was useless for any
Irish proprietor to attempt to exert himself under the
present law, for it paralyzed all endeavours he might
make, the relief to the person receiving it being inade-
quate, while to the person paying it, it was ruin.---(Hear,
hear.) He was glad that a Committee was now proposed,
for it would show the English Members that Ireland had
not the same poor-law as England; it was different in
the rating and in the operation, and, above all, it was
bad in the administration, and required extensive altera-
tion. Irish gentlemen had no wish to repudiate the sup-
port of their starving countrymen; but the present poor-
law system required alteration. The support of the poor
inside the workhouse should be separated from the sup-
port outside.
Mr. SADLIER could make allowance for the meagre
character of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Sir W. Somerville), as he had so many duties to per-
form; but some member of the Cabinet would probably
rise to answer the inquiries which had been made in the
course of the debate, and there were one or two other
points to which it might be well to call attention; for
instance, the mode in which the rates were recovered.
When a rate had been collected as far as the collectors
stated they were able to procure payment, a second rate
was made to supply the deficiency in the collection of
the first, and was probably levied upon the same
parties as before, the original defaulters going
scot-free on both occasions ; this was practically
a direct encouragement to a landlord to have
upon his estate tenants who could pay a rack-rent,
but who would be unable to pay poor-rates. Again, it
would be impossible to entertain the subject of a law of
settlement in Ireland, unless it was understood what the
Government (for it was not proper to leave it to others)
intended to do with respect to the establishment of a
good system of registration of births, deaths, and mar-
riages. As to charging mortgagees with poor-rate, that
would prevent the investment of capital in Ireland—if
indeed this had not been already done. Let the Noble
Lord (J. Russell) address himself with practical, well ,
digested measures to the question—what was to be done
with the surplus agricultural population of Ireland? If
the Government did not make a total revision of the sys-
tem under which Ireland had been cast as regarded
unions and electoral divisions, they might depend upon
it that no amendments which they could introduce would
have the effect of relieving the destitution and giving full
encouragement to the industry of Ireland. He hoped
that the unions and electoral divisions of that country
would be so constructed as to approximate to the size of
the English poor-law unions; and he must express his
regret that the Government had not stated explicitly
what measures of a remedial character they would in-
troduce for Ireland, while at the same time he thought
that they should adopt some measure for the more effec-
tual recovery of poor-law arrears in that country.
Sir G. GREY must admit that the Hon. Gentleman
had called the attention of the House to a subject of great
importance ; but with respect to those details of the
operation of the poor-law into which he had entered,
and which he thought were fit subjects for reference in
a Committee, it would be more convenient for the dis-
patch of public business to abstain from following him
through the consideration of those details, especially as
he (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him in thinking that they
would be much better submitted to the investigation of a
Committee. There were one or two points, however,
in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman to which he
would shortly advert. The first point was with regard
to the collection of the arrears of rates; and he had to
state on this subject that a collector had been sent out
to see to the collection of rates, and his return was that
a considerable portion of those rates had been uncol-
lected, not from any inability to pay them, but from un-
willingness, and from an evasion of the law, where the
law had not been enforced against these parties.
Mr. SADLIER—From destitution.
Sir GEORGE GREY—Ho was afraid that the
remark he had made was applicable to many
who were able to pay ; and he only hoped, if the
Hon. Gentleman knew of cases of that kind, that
ho would place those cases in the hands of the Poor-
law Commissioners. He was afraid, however, it would
be found that there was, in many instances, an indispo-
sition to pay the rates. With regard to the commission,
the Hon. Gentleman opposite had made many remarks,
and he had brought forward many instances to show that
the original distribution of the unions was not on a
uniform principle. In that he agreed with Lim—(Hear,
hear)—and it was in consequence of that opinion that
ho had agreed to the appointment of the Boundary
Commission. Wheat the motion of the Hon. Member
for Portarlington was last session disposed of he (Sir G.
Grey) stated that a commission was to be appointed;
and he also stated the same thing to him and a deputa-
tion of Irish gentlemen previous to that motion being
brought on.—(Hear.) That commission had most
diligently applied itself to all those details to which the
Hon. Gentleman opposite had adverted, and they had
transmitted a report to the Government, though the
appendices and maps would not be delivered for a short
time to come. He would not enter upon a detail
of all the matters contained in that report, but would
only state from recollection the tendency of the re-
commendations which it contained. The report had
been referred to the Poor-law Commissioners of Ireland
in order that they might fully consider the propriety of
carrying out its recommendations with as little delay as
possible. And when he said " carrying out" its recom-
mendations,
soorwore,uao clr
dher
doe
bt
hoi
aoesetiebthinvri
neooebsal
uondies
pet
the
had;
vthiihcreee.
annatderbsugrrt
ecretehoo,iaptneaehfmsoeddwarrmolutati
pr,otnli
Ireland.—(Hear.)
tlesdohata possible,ni
nonrei
division
yet anda;isseaai
commissioners
fhlonhc(dout
Tdptaa particulars,
dl
did not
therefore
ntiree.
foltchor.
rorh)ruleets:lel
yfloaroawwuberAri
Ireland.—
(Hear.)
soiteit
the.
omoh—roithneerno
he was not to be understood as meaning
d
tavv
rhi
thatanxious
ost thhohoesee
workhouses,
(Ihadnouufnetienohadnorbs.s3eaei
nnnuyHtnhieueo
lmadenbtoesetrl
other parts of Ireland they proposed that the principle
tendency of the report was to alter the division of the
electoral divisions, he could not hold out the hopeathat
the commissioners were favourable to the views held
by some Hon. Gentlemen ; but ithe tendency certainly
was to diminish the area of taxation on the principle
more than once stated to the House by himself and others
though not in a way that must necessarily lead to great
evils, by reducing the area of taxation to the extent ad-
vocated by some Hon. Members connected with Ireland.
—(Hear.) He would not further enter upon the subject
now ; but he hoped that the report of the commissioners
would tend much to break the labours of the Committee
about to be appointed. As to the questions put by the
Hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), if he
were to answer all those questions and refer to all the
points noticed by him, he might as well produce at once
the Bill which it was hoped they would be able to
bring forward. He would not now occupy the time of
the House by entering into detail, but he might state
that the Government would not go into this inquiry
with any intention of impairing the great principles
upon which the Poor-law of Ireland was founded,
or of altering the principles upon which relief was
given. He understood an Hon. Gentleman opposite to
ask whether the Government meant to confine relief
to the workhouses, and to do away with the
system of outdoor relief. He (Sir G. Grey) begged to
inform the Hon. Gentleman that the Government enter-
tained no such intention.—(Hear, hear.) Their object
was to facilitate the operation of the law, while, at the
same time, they kept in view the great object thel law
was framed to accomplish, and which he could not admit
it had failed to effect—namely to avert starvation from
the Irish people. He believed that, but for the amended
poor-law, there would, during the recent period of dis-
tress, have been a much greater degree of suffering
amongst the people of Ireland.
Mr. H. HERBERT observed, that there was great
difference of opinion on this subject, and he feared that
the proposed Committee would continue their sittings
during the whole session without arriving at any practi-
calresult. A number of the Irish Members, of whom he
was one, had an interview with the Home Secretary last
year, and pressed upon him a diminution of the area of
taxation; but this suggestion, although made by men
practically acquainted with the state of Ireland, and
whose opinions should have been entitled to consider-
ation, was not adopted. He believed that by energy,
perseverance, and determination on the part of the landed
proprietors, a poor-law might work well in Ireland; and
that, although under any circumstances there must be a
severe struggle, the difficulties to be encountered were
not so insuperable as had been represented.—(Hear.)
Sir L. O'BRIEN considered that the Government
ought to have proceeded with legislation on this subject
at once, and expressed a hope that such measures as
might be deemed expedient would be submitted to Par-
liament without any unnecessary delay.
part of Ireland with which he was connecstseeased
capital,
the flight of those tenant-farmers who p
Mr. MONSELL said that the great di
orotion of the land
and the cosequent danger that a largeu p
of He
in that district might boot hrownnto
of this Committee, for
did not object to the appinhtme
ezneans of effecting many
he thoUght they might be
het
thought it necessary, would
the Government, if they ifirairtYoseinfrtohme
have the report of the eedtrutostebdythualtet
under the immediate considera-
Home Secretary brought
would appoint any additional
tion of the House, and
important alterations in t
equired to ogrY out the Arms•
staff that Pgghi 129 F • •
commpoisosriolan

ments contemplated by the Commission. It was most
desirable that the doubt which now existed on this subject
should be removed as speedily as possible; and he warned
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was on Wed-
nesday to propose a vote for the relief of distress in
Connaught, that if the Government Aid not take care

they would have to propos a similar grant next year for
the people of Munster. There was a vast emigration
going on from the South of Ireland, consisting not of the
lower classes, but of capitalists—thus leaving the poor
unassisted, and whose support must devolve upon the
Government of the country, unless means were devised
to give them reproductive employment.
Mr. GRATTAN did not think the speech of the Right
Hon. Baronet would give satisfaction to Ireland. The
avowal that it was not the intention of the Government
to abandon the idea of affording support to the able-
bodied at once destroyed all hope that any scheme that
the Committee might devise would be productive of be-
nefit. It had been attempted by the Red Republicans in
Paris, and had totally failed. He would not ask whether
the Right Hon. Baronet was a Red Republican; but he,
at least, was trying the same system in Ireland, where it
would not only fail, but would place the country in such
a situation as to render it impossible for any proprietor
to reside in at all. He begged to correct an error into
which an Hon. Member had fallen in stating that he
(Mr. Grattan) was not an advocate for any poor-law.
On the contrary, some years ago, he. in conjunction with
his brother and Sir R. Musgrave, brought in a Bill on

that very subject.
Sir G. GRBY explained. He had said that although
he thought it desirable to institute an inquiry into the
present working of the poor-law in Ireland, yet it was
not the intention of the Government to retrace their
steps and fall back to the minimum amount of relief
under the poor-law of 1846.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD maintained that the great
cause of all the evils in Ireland was want of employ-

mint, and that that employment would be instantly
given if the occupiers of land were put in a position to
be assured that for the labour they employed they

would receive a just remuneration. - -
Mr. ST. GEORGE said, at present persons possessing
holdings at 41., and under, were exempt from paying
poor-rates. He objected to this, and believed that it
would be more advantageous to Ireland, if all persons
holding lands were required to pay their quota.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Right Hon. Baronet, the
Secretary for Ireland would take care that the Com-
mittee should be supplied with those statistical facts
relative to the condition of the population, the tenancy
and other important particulars in reference to the cir-
cumstances of Ireland, for whichkhe had moved returns,
so as to enable them to resolve the question that would
be brought before them.
Sir W . SOMERVILLE did not think it possible that
Government could furnish all the details for which the
Hon. Member had moved a return, but he could assure
that Hon. Member that every return he could command
calculated to throw light upon the subject submitted to
the Committee he should feel great pleasure in producing.
The motion was then agreed to.
TROOPS EMPLOYED IN IRELAND.

Mr. GRATTAN then moved for returns of the num
ber of troops of the line or other forces employed in the
insurrection in Ireland, as mentioned in her Majesty's
Speech from the Throne; together with list and names
of the killed and wounded, and the number and descrip-
tion of forces engaged on both sides; also, the amount
of expenses and costs in sending troops from Great
Britain to Ireland, and in moving the several regiments
and other armed forces in various parts of Ireland, on the
occasion of the said alleged insurrection.
Mr. F. MAULE hardly knew what it was his Hon.
Friend was desirous of obtaining. If he wished to know
the number of troops employed in Ireland during the
months of July, August, and September, when a dis-
turbance was apprehended, he (Mr. F. Maule) had no
objection to furnish him with a return. But it was per-
fectly well known to all the world that, from the precau-
tions taken by the Government in Ireland, from the
judgment displayed by the officers in command, and
from the excellent conduct of the troops, no collision
took place between the military and the people; and,
therefore, no returns could be made, either of the killed
and wounded, or the number and description of the forces
employed on both sides. With reference to the expense
of removing the troops from this country on that occa-
sion, the costs were defrayed out of the current votes of
the House without any extraordinary vote for that pur-
pose, and as the making of the return would be attended
with a vast degree of trouble, and would after all afford
no valuable information to the House, he must ask to be
excused from putting the country to the expense of fur-
nishing it.
Mr. GRATTAN consented that the motion should be
withdrawn, and it was withdrawn accordingly.
On the motion of Mr. GRATTAN, the following re-
turns was ordered:—Return of the number andnames of
persons arrested under the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act in Ireland, and for what alleged acts or
offences, the length of imprisonment, and it let out on
bail, or otherwise.
THE RAJA OF SATTAR A.
Mr. HUME moved for copies of any dispatch or
cor-
respondence, secret or otherwise, from the Court of Di-
rectors of the East India Company to the Governor-
General of India in Council, sanctioned by the Commis-
sioners for the Affairs of India, and communicating the
decision of the Court on the question of the disposal of
the Sattara State, in consequence of the death of the late
Raja; together with all correspondence, secret or other-
wise, between the Governments of India, from the 14th
day of October, 1847, and not already laid before Par-
liament ; as also, copies of all minutes recorded by
Members of Council in India, and dissents, protests, or
minutes recorded by any member or members of the
Court of Directors on that subject.—Ordered.
The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'cicck.