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London, England, 1831-08-17 00:00:00

to be taken into immediate consideration; and though he
r did not feel called upon to pledge himself to any particular
plan, yet he hesi•ated not to affirm that not a moment
should be lost in pressing upon the attention of Parliament
the urgent necessity there existed for improving our colo-
nial system.
Sir G. STAUNTON said a few words in support of the
notion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, but he was
very imperfectly heard.
Sir C. WETHERELL said that the present was one of
the most formidable motions that had been made by the
professed friends of the Reform 1311. The Noble Lord
(the Member for Northrruiptonshire) made one; the Hon
Atember tor Oxford anot! cr ; and the third was m:ide by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex; and it was a motion the
largest and most important of the whole three. Taking a
large and philosophical view of the Bill of the Noble Lord
opposi e, he would say, that the motion of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex was one of the very utmost im-
portance ; and though he could not give that motion
his support, he must he allowed to derive from it a
strong argument for allowing the system of represen-
tation to this country to remain unchanged ; that, at
least, the colonies should not be deprived of that indirect
representation which the existing system afforded them.
Though that House did not occupy itself with the internal
regulation of the colonies, yet it bad much to do with what
might be called external legislation. By external legisla-
tion all the prorrty of the colonies might be made or un-
made. It was a known and acknowledged principle of
the British Constitution, that taxation and representation
should be co-extensive. True it was, that in the case of
the colonies referred to, there was none of that species of
taxation attempted in the case of America ; but was not
the imposition of taxes as complete on titnber—of which
the Noble Lord opposite could have no very agreeable re-
miniscence—and on Cape wine, as any mode of direct tax-
ation ? The Bill gave representatives to Greenwich, Brigh-
ton, and Cheltenham, but it tefused them to the E rat In-
dies or the West. The colonies were completely shut out,
for the purpose of rearing up towns that did not possess
one-tenth of the importance which belonged to any one of
the colonies. Every time they opened this Bill, they were
presented with a page of levity, folly, inconsistency, and
injustice. The Hon. Member for Taunton appeared to be
under apprehensions that there would be coalitions formed
between the Members for the various colonies, which would
he likely to produce undesirable results in the British
House of Commons. Now he (Sir C. Wetherell) did not
see why it was at all likely that such coalitions should
take place. He saw no point of coalition between the
sugar of the West Indies and the indigo of the East
Indies, or between the fir timber that was grown in
Canada, and the teak timber that was grown on the
banks of the Ganges.—(A laugh.) It was true that the
giving Members to the colonies would not be consonant
with the principle of the Bill, and would, therefore,
not he acceptable to the Bill-men—(A laugh)—but he
cared neither for the Bill nor the Bill-rnen.—(Hear.)
Let not discomfiture discourage the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex, for he would still have retaliation within his reach.
If the Ministers voted against him on giving representa-
tives to the colonies, he could vote against the Ministers
on the third reading of the Bill, and so be quits with
them.—(A laugh.) But not only was the Hon. Member
for Middlesex's motion a valuable one, but he had also
backed it by a most valuable speech, of which he would
say, that it had entirely made out the justice of the case,
in support of which it had been made. It might be true
that it might be found difficult to elect Members for the
colonies on the 101. system which had been introduced
into the Bill; but though that 101. system had been re-
presented to be so admirable, he still did not see why
another almost as admirable might not lie found by which
colonial representatives might be elected. He begged to
recommend this consideration to the framers of this Bill—
this unaltered and unalterable Bill—the first stereotype of
which had long been extinct, and had been replaced by a
second unaltered and unalterable Bill.—(Laughter and
sheers.) Entertaining these views, he should certainly
divide the House on the motion of the Hon. Member for
Middlesex ; and in so doing, let it not be said that he was
setting himself up as a new maker of the Constitution; it
was because the mischief had already been done by others
that he interfered ; and be did so in the hopes of
somewhat ameliorating the dangers with which these
changes appeared to him to be beset. Having said thus
much, he begged leave to pay the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex a farewell compliment, by congratulating him
on the latent Member for Montrose having broken
through the exterior colouring of the Member for Middle-
sex—(Laughter)—and he trusted that when that Hun.
Member should put on his philibegs—(Continued peals of
laughter) —and arm himself for the Scotch Reform Bill,
he would be found advocating the same principles that he
had advanced that night, and taking Montrose under his
special protection. One word further—they had been
told by the advocates of the Bill that they ought to watch
the signs of the times. Now, he bad been watching the
signs of the times ; and he must say, that within the last
four or five days the signs of the times had not been very
couciliatory—(Cheers and laughter)—the signs of the
times were beginning to abuse the Bill—the signs of the
times were beginning to call the framers of the Bill to
task ; and he therefore trusted that his dissatisfaction and
disapproval of the Bill would no longer be set down as
something unnatural and indefensible.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BURGE supported the motion, on the ground
that the colonies had a right to be represented in the Bri
tish Legislature.

Sir C. FORBES, though be did not expect this pro•
position would be carried, yet thought that its having
been made would do good, inasmuch as it would prove to
the colonists that their interests were not entirely over-
looked.

Sir GEORGE 'MURRAY was happy to perceive that
the House had been very attentive to the discussion, and
it would no daub; profit by the observations of the Hon.
Members for Middlesex and Taunton. In the discussion
on the Reform Bill, the House had, he was afraid, in ge•
neral forgotten that the empire consisted of various inte-
rests and different parts, and he was glad to hear the Hon.
Member for Middlesex express sentiments on this point he
did not expect to hear from him. The Hon. Member had
shewn a due sense of the importance of our colonies, for
which he had not before given him credit. The Hon.
Member for Taunton had shewn that the interests of our
colonies would not be consulted by the Reform Bill. He
was satisfied that, when the Bill passed, there would be a
want of that representation Which had been so beneficial to
the colonies. He therefore was of opinion, that the sue-
gestion of the Hen. Member for Middlesex should be
adopted, or some other thing should be suggested by his
Majesty's Ministers to provide for the interests of these co-
lonies. He wished to make one observation on what fell
from the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
He must, with reference to one remark made by the Noble
Lord, deny that the objections to the Bill all proceeded from
the enemies of the Bill. The Hon. Members for Middle•
sex and Taunton were not hostile to the Bill, but disposed
to amend it, and make it perfect. After all that the Bill
proposed to do was done, it would be found that the varied
and complicated interests of this mighty empire would
not be provided for. The interests of this empire were
not to be provided for by such simple means as the Bill
proposed.
Lord ALTHORP had not attribute!: to his Hon. Friend
any hostility to Reform ; but he had said that his 'present
motion was hostile to the Bill.
Mr. HUME explained. He had not wished to attack
the Bill ; and it was not fair that his own interpretation
of his motive was net taken. HI teas sure that Ministers
might add his Ingestion to the Bill, when they had time,
with advantage both to the mother country and the colonies.
The minion was then negatived without a division.
Mr. CROKER moved for certain returns of the popula-
tiou and assessed taxes, according to the returns of 1821,
which were already before the House, but in not so avail-
able a shape as he wished to make them.—Ordered.
Mr. H. HUGHES gave notice that he would, in bring-
ing up the report of the Bill, move to omit all the words
that related- to the division ofcounties.
The House then resolved itself into the Committee.
Lord ALTHORP moved the fourteenth clause, relative
to the Isle of Wight, and proposed that the blank should
be filled up with the word " One,' thus giving one Mem-
ber to the island.
Mr. H. HUGHES adverted to the fact that the Isle of
Wight was to lose four Members by the Bill. By sever-
ing the island, too, front Hampshire, the freeholders would
lose their votes for the county. They would be disfran-
chised, and they were the only freeholders of the kingdom
who would be disfranchised by the Bill. The population
of the Island was 37,000, having increased by 4,000
since 1821. The number of electors under the new Bill
would be 9,000. The district was, in his opinion, pecu-
liarly worthy of two representatives ; and he ' should,
therefore, move that the word " Taro",be substituted for
the word " One."
Mr. H. GURNEY supported the amendment. He -
had had a petition in his hands for some time, praying fur
two Members, and lie thought the island deserved it.
Lord ALTHORP thought that the Bill did not place
the freeholders of the Isle of Wight in a worse situation
than they were at present. One representative for the
island would he of more use to them than sharing the re-
presentat on with Southampton. He though the island
Was benefited by the change. lle admitted the respecta-
bility of the constituency of the island, hut thought it
would be amply represented by one Member. The que.i•

tion was entirely one of degree, and no other arguments
than these of proportion could be urged on either side.
Sir GEORGE CLERK was nut disposed to agree to
the amendment. He wished to know why the Isle of
Wight was separated from Hampshire ? in fact, this Waa
giving five Members to that county. The Noble Lord had
not given five Members to other large counties ; and why,
then, was this done for Hampshire ? Lincolnshire was
well deserving- of five Members—better desrving of them
indeed than Hampshire, for' it had tore people. Other
counties h-rd lost boroughs as well as the Isle of Wight.
Thus the county of Suffolk was reduced from thirteen to
ni,:e Memb,rv. He believed that giving a Member to the
Llc of W,glit would make it a niitninatit,n county. One
interest would, he believed, predominate in it. The Isle
of Man contained forty thousand inhabitants, and to it no
Member was given. He did put it, therefore, to the
Nolte Lord to explain why lie had given a fifth Member
to Hampshire.
Mr. BUN HAM CARTER did not know what reason
the Noble Lord might have for this arrangement, but
kr.ew that the island was considered in the Statute-book as
separate from the county of Southampton. If a Member
store given to the Isle of Wight, he would he exclusively
a Member of the agricultural interest.
Al Hos. MEMBER thought the separation of the Isle of
Wight from Southampton would authorise a separate
polling-place, and not a teytrate Member. He should op-
pose the amendment.
Lord MILTON said, that the reason why the Isle of
Man was not included probably was, that the Isle of Man
was pot taxed by that House. As he liked the general
prnc;ple of giving Members to each pl ice, he should sup-
port the amendment.
Lord ALTHORP,in reply to the objection respecting
the Isle of Wight, contended that it would be exceedingly
inconvenient to carry on a general election for Hampshire
with voters brought from that island, and as it contained a
great many persons of property and respectability, they had
therefore thought it better to give it one Member separate
from the county.
Mr. CROKER said, that this proposition of the Noble
Lord was another of the monstrous anomalit a of the Bill.
The Noble Lord gave five voters to Hampshire, although
there were fourteen counties of much greater population
and importance, which were to have only four Members.
He did not object to the Isle of Wight having a represen-
tative, but be did not object to the reason for giving that
Member, and thought that the counties of Devon, Somerset,
Lancaster, and Kent, and many others, had much reason
to complain that they were to be placed in a worse condi-
tion than the county of Southamption.
Sir GEORGE CLERK observed, that the Government
were about to make the Isle of Wight the Gateshead of
Southampton.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Sir J.. MACDONALD defended the proposition for
giving one Member to the Isle of Wight, and observed
that Hampshire would still have a population of 250,000
persons.

Sir R. INGLIS could not understand why the county
of Southampton should have five Members when the gre
county of York, with a million and a half of inhabitants,
was to have only six. He deprecated, too, the principle
of dividing the Isle of Wight from Southampton, when it
had the same jurisdiction, and was in every respect a part
of the county. The whole plan was at variance with the
principle of the Bill, and he had heard no reason front the
Noble Lord in support of it.
Mr. C. PELHAM objected to the principle of dividing
districts which had been united for centuries.
Mr. POYNTZ said he was well assured that the people
of the Isle of Wight would be contented with one Member.
Mr. HUNT said it was %eel known the county of
Southampton, through the means of the dock-yards, was
a mere Government borough. He did not believe the
Isle of Wight would be under the same influence, and he
therefore gave his consent to its having one Member; but
he could not agree that it should have two Members when
Bolton was to have but one. He begged, however, to be
allowed to say a few words on the subject of the abuse of
those Members who presumed to say that the l3ill was not
all perfection. He, among others, had been denounced as
an enemy to all Reform, because he merely ventured to
hint that the Bill might be much improved, and that it
would not give universal satisfaction. He was told that the
people demanded the whole Bill and nothing else would they
consent to have, and yet at that very moment some of those
who were the loudest in sheaving for the Bill, the whole
Bill, and nothing but the Bill, were moving amendments
which were directed against the Bill.—(Hear, hear, and
no, no.) He repeated, that according to the creed of the
opposite party, all who did not take the Bill as it was
presented to them by the Noble Lord, were to he consi-
dered enemies of Betiom, and they had the Member for
Middlesex this evening moving an amends ent, and many
others were to follow with their amendments.—(Hear.)
He (Mr. Hunt) had two of his owta,—( Hear, and a laugh)
.—of which he had given notice,at the very earliest mo-
ment. He repeated, however, that according to the doc-
trine of the Hon. Members opposite, all who attempted to
amend the Bill were its enernies.—(Hear:) He had one
word to add on the subject of the newspapers.—(Hear.)
He must speak plainly, and call things by their names.
He had not yet acquired the Parliamentary tactics Of ad-
verting to the Press under the name of the usual sources
of it.formation.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He wished
to direct their attention to the course pursued by the Press,
and particularly by the Times. That paper denounced
every man who presumed to find fault with a single word
of the Bill, as an enemy to his country. It had sa de-
nounced him. But he would ask them to look at the
Times now. He would ask them to look at the Times
of that morning, and see how it was laying it on Ministers
about the division of the counties.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) He would ask them to see how the Times was
calling on the country almost to rise in arms against a
part of that Bill, the whole of which they had called on
every man to accept without hesitation, under the pain of
being considered an enemy of his country.—(Hear, hear.)
The Times called on the counties to meet and petition for

the purpose of putting a stop to that atrocious measure, the
division of counties. But he could tell the Times their
power was gone by. The day for obeying the calling for
up a Common Hall, but they failed ; and he would tell
county meetings was gone. They had endeavoured to get
them why : they could not get a Common Hall to suit
their purpose; and if they were to attempt to get up
county meetings, they would meet with the same disap-
was gone by for that. The Times,
phowever,
disap-
pointment. e
dTol The daytli threats to the Members of that House,
and he, for One, was for bringing the writers of these at-
tacks to the bar.—(Hear, hear.) In the Times of that
day there was a general attack on the House, ae well as
on individuals, and he should like either to have some of
the gentlemen who wrote these attacks, or their ladies_
(A laugh)—brought up to the bir to answer for them.
Mr. W. HARVEY rose to order. He wished to ask if
there was any question before the House connected with the
Times newspaper, and if the Hon. Member was in order in
pursuing his present course of argument ?
The CHAIRMAN, as he was thus called on to give his
opinion, kit bound to say that he did not think the Hon.
Member confined himself, as he should do, to the question
before the Committee, and he, therefore, in his opinion,
was out of order.—(No, no, go on, go on.)
Mr. HUNT proceeded—lfevery Member, in the course
of the debates, was forced to confine himself, as the Chair-
man said, to the question before the Committee, he knew
not the man who would be in order.—(Hear, hear.) He
was speaking of the newspapers at the time he was inter-
rupted. The press made it a practice at the present mo-
ment to abuse the House, and to misrepresent and vilify
its Members: ,In one part of that day's Times they had
alluded to the Member for Linco'n (Sibthorpe) by name;
and what was the extraordinary and most infamous part
of the business, they had coupled the Member for Lincoln
and him (Hunt) together.—(Hear, hear, from Colonel
Sibthorpe.) They had made a gross attack on the Member
for Lincoln by name, and then they put hint and that
Member to run as a couple.—( Hear, and a laugh.) He
cared not what they said, but he would state it broadly
and openly, that if the debates on the Bill had been carried
on with closed doors, the country would have understood
the Bill better than they now did, after the gross and
scandalous misrepresentation of their proceedings which
had appeared in the papers. The people would have read
the Bill and judged for themselves, without being preju-
diced by the scandalous misrepresentations contained in
the reports of the Press.—(Hear, hear.) He knew he
would be libelled and calumniated for this, but he cared
not for attacks of that kind. He was determined to do
his duty, in spite of all the hostility with which he might
be assailed.
An HON. MEatnEn (we believe fur Hsinpshire), in
reply to the assertion of the Member for Preston, that
Hampshire would be a Government borough, said that
undoubtedly the Government, through the means of the
dock-yards, had great influence in time of war, but it had
little or none in time of peace, and through the operation
of the Bill would now lose it Atogether at any time.
Colonel SIBTHORPE was very regardless of what the
Press said of him, as their praise was frequently the
deepest censure. He saw, however, that the papers were
disposed to favour one side more than the other, and it
was probably for this reason that the Times, while it
commented on his conduct, took no notice of the manner
in which be had lashes' the First Lord of the Admiralty
the other evening.—(oh, . oh, and hear.) That would
not have suited their side. Without meaning any dis-
respect to the Noble Earl at the head of the Government,