The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-17 00:00:00

of agreeing with the Honourable Gentleman regard- the misrule which at present existed, and they would
ing the charge made against the Colonial-i.ffice, for effect a great reduction in expenditure. The Board
most of the obloquy that fell on it was bc‘tiluse it we.: of Trade, which regulated the commercial affairs of this
the organ of Parliament and of the country. The abo- country, regulated also those of the colonies, and that
lition of the slave trade, the question of waste lands, he would leave it as it stood, as well as the protective
and other matters, were instances of that. He could p over which Parliament was sometimes called upon to
not, however, agree with him that British colonial po exercise towards the colonists. For although it might
licY, as now carried on, was the most successful an:l tie said that the Ctlonial- office could be informed of
the most beneficial policy which the world ever saw. No .heso through the Governors of their respective colonies,
doubt that was quite true, when compared with other y 1 where Governors were not appointed by the cold.
Countries of Europe as regarded their colonies; but diets, and it was only at times that such c: mplaints were
what he should contend for was, that the present policy listened to; and even when they were, they were put in
of England was far different from the ancient policy ;he hands of the favourite clerk in the Colonial-office,
panned, for example, towards the United States before to brush up in the garb which most favoured the opi•
the separation, and that that carried out within the nions of the Colonial-office respecting ithem. It was
last sixty or seventy years differed widely from the not always that their colonies were so neglected, and
system adopted towards the early settlers of America. ‘t was to take the management of the inquiry into
--(Hear, hear.) Great sums of money were now cx- these evils they complained of out of the hands of in-
pended, in many instances unnecessarily and uselessly, terested parties, that he would support the motion be-
and for his own part he thought that in planting colo- tore the House.
nies they ought always to bear in mind they were Sir WM. MOLESWORTH said he would not long
laying the foundation of future states in different letain the House. The qttestion before the House di-
parts of the globe, the connexion with which he should sided itself into two parts—namely, whether an inquiry
hope to see exist as long as mutual good was afforded, into their colonial policy was necessary? and if so, by
and when it ceased, that it should not be like the sever- whom ought that inquiry to be made, so as to derive
ance of America, but on mutual principles of esteem and the most important benefits from it? The Hon. Gmn
affection, which were infinitely more valuable than e tleman, the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, said that
mere political connexion. He (Mr. Gladstone) regretted there was no case for inquiry, that the colonial policy
that the Hon. Member the Under-Secretary for the Co- of this country was perfect, and that nothing could be
lonies made any refererce whatever to the present better than the conduct of the colonial government. It
state of affairs in Canada, because, although he had was, however, strange that none of those who had fol-
asked the Hon. Gentleman some questions on the sub lowed him in the debate had gone so far in that respect
joct, it was more for information than to raise a discus- as had the Hon. Gentleman; for all those who had spoken
aion, or to prejudge a question not yet decided. He had admitted that there were evils connected with their
should, however, protest against the doctrine laid down colonial policy. There was, besides, a growing convic-
by the Honourable Gentleman, when he said that the tion throughout the country that there were great errors
Members of that House had no right to discuss an) in their colonial policy, and that great reliance was not
question touching the affairs of their tree colonies, until to be plat: d in the Colonial-office for the remedy-
the subject-matter had taken the form of law, and re- ing of them. To show that there were good grounds for
ceived the assent of the Crown. •He (Mr. Gladstone) the latter opinion, it was only necessary to refer to the
should claim for himself, and for the Members of most prominent and important events which had taken
that House, the right to express their opinions, or to place in the colonies within the last ten or fifteen years.
raise a discussion, if necessary, at any time, regarding —(Hear.) In the first place take North America. In
colonial proceedings, when the interests of the empire or the course of that time there had been there a bitter war
honour of the Crown were involved.—(Hear, bear.) of races, two rebellions suppressed at an immense cost,
The Hon. Member (Mr. Hawes) had referred to the and now there was a repetition of that war of races, for-
case of Guiana and
_of Jamaica. He (Mr. Gladstone) merly so disastrons to the colony. In the West Indies

would not speak of Jamaica at present, but he would ob-
serve, that he thought the reference to Guiana was un•
fortunate, as the subject was under consideration else-
where. The Hon. Member had argued, that the Colo-
nial-office was not responsible for the operation of free-
trade principles upon the colonies, but that the House
was. It was no wonder, however, that when the princi-
ples of free trade had been applied to the colonies, they
shou!d be calling out for economy, and were they to be
deprecated for doing so?—(hear, hear.)
Mr. HAWES said he did not say a word about it.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought that the colonies, in such
S case, had a right to expect not negative assistance
merely from the Colonial-office, but that every possible
assistance should be given for the carrying out of eco-

nomy in British Guitilm.—(llear.)
Mr. HAWES observed, that he could point out an in-
stance in which it had been done.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the Honourable Gentleman
had stated that Earl Grey would consent to any reduc-
tion when vacancies occurred in the civil list; but he
,(Mr. Glandstone) would most emphatically deny that
the Noble Lord acted on that principle. This country
possessed 43 colonies, and as regarded their govern.
ment, it appeared that 19 of them had representative
institutions, and there were 16 in which representa-
tive institutions were not adapted to their peculiar
condition. The Honourable Member had shown that
there were many cases which would make it impro-
per to attempt the application of representative insti-
tutions. He said, very fairly, that if a dominant race
formed the minority, it was impossible in such case that
they could have the working of a representative govern,
went, and it was, therefore, necessary that the Colonial-
office should step in to supply the want. After alluding
to the military colonies, which did not support them-
selves' he said he agreed that when a colony like Aus-
tralia did not support itself, it would be wrong to let it
be free of Imperial control, but when they came to the
last colonies of which the Hon. Gentleman had spoken—
not military posts—not colonies unable to support them-
selves—he did not understand why they should not have
free institutions.—(Hear.) He would refer, for instance,
to Newfoundland and Prince Edward's Island, and he
did not see why a certain amount of population was ne-
cessary to the enjoyment of free institutions. Of the 43
colonies only three bad responsible Governments, and the
remaining 40 were without that advantage. The question
Wail• whether it was necessary that the colonies should
have a certain amount of population before they had
responsible governments. The Hon. Gentleman had
said he would give free institutions to a colony as soon ss
the people were fit for it. But he (Mr. Gladstone) did
not understand why any colony of Anglo-Saxon race,
able to pay its way, should not have free institutions,
whatever might be the amount of its population.—
(Hear.) He thought if they had acted on that principle
long ago, they would not now have to contend with
—Many of the difficulties with which they were beset.
The Hon. Member then referred to Vancouver's Island,
and was of opinion that the conduct of Lord Grey, re-
specting that colony, was deserving of censure, and he
hoped that some Honourable Member would inquire
about it. An opportunity had in that case presented
.itself of founding a free colony, and of making
an experiment, which had been miserably neglected.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought that after what had occurred
last year, such a subject could not fail to attract the
attention of Parliament and the country. He hoped
they would get rid of the dangerous fallacy that a
colony should have a certain amount of population
before it was entitled to have free institutions. On that
point he thought that the old colonial policy was better
than the new. He might refer, as a proof of that, to the
New England States, as these colonies were in posses-
sion of self-government before the population numbered
a great many thousands.
Mr. HAWES had doubts about that.
Mr. GL A DSTONE was confident that in one at least
of the now States the Governor, among other function.
aries was elected by the colonists. What he would
maintain was this, that the New England Colonies
were founded by the home Government, and that,
nevertheless, before one generation had passed away
the Government of the colonies was in America.
• He attached little value to abstract resolutions about
colonial government, because there were so many pecu-
liar circumstances which had to be taken into conside-
ration. But this he would say, that when cases of par-
' ticular colonies came before them, let them decide re-
garding them upon right and proper principles, and by
so doing they would best contribute to their prosperity,
and would place them in a position worthy of the chat•
racier of this great empire.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MANGLES said he doubted whether the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hawes) had acted wisely on a
'former occasion in taking up the cudgels and
defending the colonial policy of this country gene-
rally. He (Mr. Mangles), in speaking of the Colo-
' vial-office, did not wish to be understood as making
any personal Werence to any of the disLin-
guished men who had presided over its affairs. He
thought the fault was to be found in the system itself,
•when men of such varied ability had failed in adminis-
tering its affairs with satisfaction. He thought it was
impossible that any man could be adequate to the dis-
charge of the varied and important duties which were
required at the Colonial-office, even if he possessed the
accomplishments of the "admirable Crichton" himself.
British India was governed very differently from the
colonies; the former was governed by a separate board,
while India was governed by a fixed body, he saw no
reason why they might not have a permanent board,
Composed of retired Governors to assist the Secretary
of the Colonies with their judgment and advice. Ho con-
curred entirely in the opinion, that the colonies should
have every possible advantage of free Government. The
lion. Member referred to the colony of New Zealand, of
which Sir George Grey was Governor, and said, that in
'that colony, Mr. Fox had resigned the office or Attorney-
keseral, because the Governor would nut give a pledge
of his determination to carry out the principle of free in.
atitutions.
Mr. HUME said the question brought under consi-
deration was ono of the greatest importance. It was
rather singular to be told that the inquiry demanded
could be productive of no good. lie regretted that the
debate had not turned on what might fairly be presumed
!ins the tenour of the motion; namely, the appointment of
Committee to inquire into the political and financial
relations between Great Britain and her dependencies,
with a view to reduce the charges on the British Tree.-
bury, and to enlarge the functions of the colonial le4isla-
tut°. Ono word had not been said with reference to
the expenditure of the country, or the means suggested
to reduce the drag on the British Treasury. The Un-
der Secretary for the Colonies gave it as his opinion
that their colonial system was an honour to England.
Well, if it were so, he (Mr. Hume) knew nothing that was
a disgrace, for nothing could be more fraught with com-
plaint, or attended with more disgrace. He hoped that
the sense of the House would be taken on the subject,
and that inquiry should take place. Four years age
they were promised that free institutions would be in-
troduced into their colonial possessions, but they had
nothing save promises, and so they would go on to the
end of ten years, unless some decisive steps were taken.
If the system were properly laid down on which the
colo-
nies should be conducted, that inexplicability which the
Ron. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies
could not fath )m, would no longer exist. He feared it
Was too much the practice of the Governors of the colo-
nies to obey the mandates of the Colonial-office, confident
that so long as he did so there was no grounds of fear
for him. At present two-thirds of their military establish-
ment were required for the colonies; but if the system of
self-government were adopted there would be no such
ttecessity. In times of peace what did they require with
troopss in the colonies at all? The colonies were not made
of to that extent they ought to be for taking off the
iusr.pius population of the mother country ; the disputes
going nn between them d the Colonial-office prevent-
ing thousands f persons from finding their way thither.
He hoped thatoll.o attention would be paid to the sugges-
tion of a board
colonies. seir..ln England for the management of the
every nation that Self-govern ought to be carried out in
pressed a hope thaiatBnpracticable. In conclusion he ex-
'ward the motion would H
proesn.s
it to Member
divi.
jun
whobr.
should not be regarded brought fur-
Mr. ANSTEY deprecaasted the idea that the colonies
Aire, and repudiated with eairit integral portion of the em-
as would give them. Ho re-
Ron. Member for MontroseStich
ttSi*t"ce
as the
garde the Colonial-office
01 great public nuisance, so
reform
abominable that it admitted
tion, and contended that it was impossibleex feoerptty
.atbborleie-
oolonies could be properly attended to by one Colonial
S.oecretary.—(Hear, hear.) Ile did not blame Lord Grey
but he blamed him for
r having originated that system,
not denouncing- it, and having the evils practised under
it donee() awayld with. Under the present
therebe Ro improvement, and no cure but the u
alteration of the Colonial- office. Honourablearable
Members talked about the reduction of expenditure,
Mt
let them grant this Committee, and do away with

various disasters had taken pla-ce, and in Jamaica and
British Guiana the supplies were stopped, and all go-
vernment was in abeyance. In St. Lucia there had been
insurrection, and throughout the whole sugar colonies a
state of things the most unprosperous had prevailed. In
South Africa matters were in no better state. There
had been perpetual feuds among.t the native
chiefs—two wars had taken place, suppressed
with lavish expenditure—three insurrections of
the Boers, while a vast empire had been added to
their possessions there, inhabited by wild beasts and
wilder savages. In Ceylon di3turbances of a serious
nature had taken place. The finances of the colony
were in disorder, taxes of a grievous and vexatious na-
ture had been imposed, and military executions of the

most barbarous kind had taken place—(Hear, hear)—
while, in Australasia and New Zealand discontents to a
great extent had prevailed. Some of these events had
taken place during last year, such as the war of races in
Canada, the stoppages of the supplies in Jamaica and
British Guiana, the war at the Cape of Good Hope,
and the insurrection at Ceylon. All the others had
taken place within the last fourteen or fifteen years;
and in the course of that time there had been expended
on those colonies sixty millions sterling, while
for that sum they might have conveyed three millions
of emigrants to Australia, and twice that number to
America, and by that means rendered those colonies be-
neficial to this country. As it was, they were in the
worst possible condition, for the whole of the exports
from this country to the colonies did not much exceed
that to the United States of America. Their colonial
policy had, therefore, been unsatisfactory, and conducted
with a lavish expenditure; and be contended that all the
errors which existed in hat policy arose, not in conse-
quence of the of the colonists to this country, but
trom a want of knowledge of the onprinciples_
co-
!mustS
which
government ought to be carried on. So far, then,
he considered inquiry most necessary. He thought,
however, that such would be best instituted by a Com-
mission appointed for the purpose, but, as he believed
that the Committee moved for would see the necessity of
such Commission, and call upon the House to appoint it,
he would support the motion of the Hon. Member for
Berwickshire.
Major BLACKALL could not help thinking that,
however much the colonies might be said to suffer from
the Colonial-office, they would suffer much more were
they entirely under the management of that House,
were he to judge from the opinions he had heard ex-
pressed by those who had spoken on the subject. He
had always thought that the great argument of the Hon.
Baronet was to give the colonies a government of their
own; but in Canada, where such was done, the Hon.
Baronet had admitted that the war of races had again
commenced. Ha considered that if they wished to
attach their colonies to this country they must do so
either by fears or by iuterest.—(Hear, hear.) Were
they doing so by interest just now ? It was said
that just now the colonists were dissatified with the
free-trade measure of this country, but if there was
a complaint on that head, it was that their colonists
were not allowed to act on the principle of free trade, for
while the colonists were not allowed to employ free
labour themselves, they were put in competition with
those who did so, and therefore were placed in an unfair
position. The Hon. Baronet had referred to the dis-
turbances which had taken place at Ceylon; but these
were not caused by any act of the Colemal-office ' • and
.1S to the expense of the colonies, in the colony ofCey-
ton, the one referred to, which was as largo as Ireland,
there was only two regiments, and that surely was not
too large a military establishment for -such a colony.
If there had not been such there what would have been
the case during the late disturbances?—(Hear, hear.)
Fault was found with Lord Torrington for the manner
in which he acted there ; but ho could state
that the number of taxes reduced or repealed
on useful articles of consumption by that Noble Lord
had been of the greatest benefits to the colony, and he
gave him also great credit for the manner in which he
quelled the late rebellion, which had it been allowed to
proceed, would have ruined every interest in the colony.
One observation that fell from the Honourable Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Culonies was especially de-
serving of attention. The Honeurable Gentleman said
that colonies which had representative assemblies had
likewise the entire control over their funds. Now that
was so far from being true, that that very matter was
precisely the greatest matter of complaint that came
home to them not only from the West Indies, but from
Australia. After considering the answer of the Hon.
Gentleman on the other topics to which he had adverted,
he was still of opinion that this Committee of Inquiry
should be appointed.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority against —47
REMOVAL OF SMITHFIELD-MARKET.
Mr. MACKINNON moved that the following Hon.
Members be appointed to serve on the Select Commit ee
to inquire as to the necessity of the removal of Smith-
field-market to some more convenient site, containing
not less than twelve acres:—Lord Robert Grosvenor,
Viscount Mahon, Mr. Bramston, Mr. Alderman Cope-
land, Mr. Masterman, Mr. William Miles, Mr. Yorke,
Mr. Stafford, Mr. Pugh, Mr. Mackinnon, Sir Edmund
Filmer, Mr. Cornewall Lewis, Sir Charles Douglas, Mr.
Childers, and Mr. Christopher.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as the terms of
this motion assumed that the House had voted the re-
moval of the market, he should recommend the Hon.
Member to postpone it for another night, when they
would have an opportunity of discussing the merits of
the question, and of considering the way ie which the
different interests connected with it might be affected.
Moreover, as the Government had given up the night to
the discussion of the motion on the colonies, he hoped
the Hon. Member opposite would not allow his motion
to stand in the way of their going into Supply.
Mr. MACKINNON explained that he had originally
drawn up the motion in terms which would answer the
intention of the Noble Lord, but that on the suggestion
of the Hon. Member behind him, the Member for Lon-
don, he had altered it to the form in which it now stood.
Mr. MASTERMAN said, that as the Hon. Member
near him had alluded to his name, he would state that his
constituents were not desirous of shrinking from an in-
quiry, but did not wish to have the question prejudged.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY said that if it were a com-
plaint that Snaithfieli was a nuisance, it should be re-
membered that it had only become so in the course of
time. The citizens of London said, that if it was the
pleasure of the Legislature to pass an Act of Parliament
compulsory upon them to close the market, then it was
well that the House should know that they would have
a considerable sum of money to redeem, for the destruc-
tion of the various interests connected with the locality.
The citizens, however, did not object to an inquiry, but
the inquiry should not be taken as settled.
The galleries were then cleared for a division, but the
motion was agreed to without a division.
TAXATION IN VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
ahel
Diemen'staMr.
si
eosit
yAC oNoLnuSautTnch
Land, the Council
subject
brmj
eot
chv
tee d fora
taxation
a xeea
rt
tioi
a o filhumbletehg va
Ipaoedroddprilenesasn to
ofee
vs herao nr
the attempts of Lieutenant Governor
Sir William Denison to intimidate the Judges of the
Supreme Court of that island into declaring such ordi-
nances or acts to be legal, and the grievances com-
plained of by the colonists of that island in their petition
presented last year to her Majesty, and printed by order
of this House ; and that her Majesty may be pleased to
direct the local authorities in future to respect the inde-
pendence of the judicial functions of that Court, and also
to signify her disallowance of. any ordinance or act sub-
sequently passed by the said Lieutenant Governor in
Council,
giving to such illegal ordinances or acts the
forceof
forlaw.
The Hon. Member concluded by stating
that he should press his motion to a division.
use ensued, but no Lion. Member rose to second
the motion.
pa
motiom
An
adjourn.
MEMBER then moved that the House do now
expla-
nation HwAh
iNciThE
he
said l
itehvaetdh ewwi shed to makeo.uldbesati somesractory, etxupa-
tlit
would be against the rules of the House.
Mr. DUNCAN said if the
llawesMr.
) wished to reply he shouldll,m.
seconded.haGyeentl
the
motion. e man
(
The House then adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

FOREIGN HORSES.—lmportations of horses are at
present taking place, not only from Holland and Bel-
gium, but also from France and tho Hanseatic States.
The vessel Veneauvla, just arrivtd from Havre, has
brought twelve horses, individually addressed, of French
production; the Princess Victoria, limn Antwerp, has
brought fifteen horses of Belgian growth, consigned
to order, besides the large number of sixty-four
calves; and an arrival of horses has also just taken place
by a steamer from Hamburgh, consigned to a dealer in
the metropolis.