The Sun.
London, England, 1807-01-22 00:00:00

• , .
duty for four months, This-piolongation of perma-
nent duty bad caused a diminution in the saving of
)19,0001s There was another item Which produced
3 decrease of charge in this departMent, though not
to the public ; he meant the transfer of the artillery
of the German Legion to the Ordnance department,
The decrease produced in the department of the
Secretary at War by this transfer was 153,Gea1.
Theie was one • estimate of charge in the paper now
-'"Thefore the Rouse which, was entirely new : it was
;) •
the cenipassionete list, for which no actual provision
had ever been made by Parlianieut. For several
years it had rested upon en imaginary fend, savings
upon the haif-nay, which- did not exist. It was
now judged proper to state the exigency to Parlia-
ment, .and to require a distinEt prevision.. It was
iinpUssible to confine the subject of this charge with-
in a particular Estimate. It was taken at 12,0001.
If it should exceed' that the deficiency would be
made good afterwards. The utmost. •given to any
-person was 201. a • year. He wotild-not detain the
House with going further into the iteths, but con-
tent himself with stating that he was ready to give
the fullest information any Gentleman could require
upon any po:ns The present EStimates had been
fbrmed with the utmost attention to economy, as
would appear to every Gentleman. With a view to
a. better insight into this point, he thought it would
be better to separate the consideration of the addi-
tional pay and allowences, and to compare the-ex-
. peaces of the last and present year, as if 'hat addi-
tion had not in faa taken place. The total amount
of the Estimates of last year, eXchisive of the addi-
tional pay, was 13,936,3211. The amount of the
'Estimates of this year amounted tos exclusive of the
additional pay, -13,710,9511. affording a difference
' • in favourof this year of 225;3991. But there was a
drawback to be made from this seeing in consequence
of certain charges withdrawn from the War office,
and provided for elsewhere, to the amount of 120,0001.
On the whole view of the Estitnate, therefore, there
was ground for congratulating the country on an
augmentation of the number of forces, and a decrease
of the expense of the establishment of 150,0001.—
The additional expenses upon the-whole, inclusive of
• • -the additional pay, were but 451,0001. On the full
' ''-'consideration of the Estimates, he was of opinion the
Honourable Gentleman whohad the other night given
- notice of a charge against Ministers, for waste of the
' , public money, would be very much at a loss for any
foundation in the military departmepts. In t 806,w hen
the present Ministers had first come into oflice,if they
had proceeded according to the system before acted
Upon,wit bout any reformation, the total charge would
have amounted to no less thari a 4,800,0001. He did
hot wean to state that his Majesty's late Ministers
I would have come to Parliament for that sum, but
• that they must have asked for that sum according to
the former scale, unless certain .reductions, of
which he was not aware, should have taken
place. Thus there would have been, according to
the old scale, an additional charge of 640,0001. ex-
clusive of the addition'al pay and allowances ; but
with the additional pay and allowances, of :300,0001.
There were only two or three other points upon
which he would have to claim the indulgence of the
=oust% "rlzu ehould leave to
his Right Hon. Friend who had formed tne plan,
and to whose department it belonged. HE. should,
therefore, content hirnseif with stating, that the re-
turns had been made, and that every thing was ready
for carrying it into execution whenever 'His Ma-
jesty's Ministers should thiuk fit. The next point
was that of the Volunteers, and it was-matter of sa-
tisfaaion to him to state, as he was sure it would be
to every Gentleman in the House to bear, that all
the gloomy apprehensions that had been formed,
and all the dire predielions that had been put forth,
of the whole dissolution 'of that respeelable body, in
'consequence of the reduaions nude in its expendi-
ture in the last Session, had been completely falsi-
fied in the event. During the agitation of the pub-
lic mind, and of the Volunteers, which had been
produced by misrepresentation and studious itrita-
s- • tun, while the sullied was nyder discussion, some
symptoms of disinclination-to further service might
have appeared. But on better consideration, and
. s. better understanding,. these ill-advised discontents
subsided, and the same ardour for the service of the
Country remained, without any material defalcation
in point of numbers. By the Papers on the table it ,
eppeared that the diminutioo in the effealive strengths
'of the Volunteers was very. inconsiderable. But
-he would state the amount, of the Establishment •
iather than the effeftive, as that , would afford
_ the fairest means , of judging of the extent of
the operaticn of the fate regulations. At the
present tisoinent, the apprehensioesof invasion, that
had called forth and stimulated the Volunteers, had
subsided, and some relaxation of aftivity may have •
arisen in consequence ; but there was no doubt
that this highly estimable description of the public
force would again display its characteristic zeal and •
epirit if a renewal of the Enemy's menaces shOuld
tall ler a similar ardour and energy. The Hon.
Gentlemen opposite seemed to triumph in this tests
Mony to the merit of the Volunteers, as, if it was a
, sort of inconsistency in his Majesty's present Ser-
vants. But the present Ministers had found fault,
nut With the Volueteers themselves, but with the
manner in which the Hon. Gentleman opposite had
'organized theist. Certainly the
.present Ministers
had never been guilty -of uttering any charge so dis-
. respeEtfel as that so psstinaciously upheld by the
Hon. Gentleman opppsite, that the Volunteers would
disband themselves in the eVent of any reduaioo of
their pay or allowances. He was confident that the
Voldnteers were still actuated by the same steady
attachment to the cause of their Country, and equal-
ly ready to expose their lives for its detet4e, though
their pay was diminished. He thought the, proper
w*_o_t judging this point was, an take the amount
Of the Establishment, which would best sliew the
numbers that had disbanded themselves from dissa-
t:staetion with the new arrangement. The whole num-
ber that had retired from this cause was eleven' thou-
sand four lumdred and eighty-six. The number that
remained on service was 303,400. The next pint
was the altaration in the syStem et recruiting, a poinf
whiclihad been _discussed wore than any other. The
explanation of what had taken place on this head be-
longed, more properly, perhaps, to a person much
more able than he : -but in-consideration of the anx-
iety the House naturally felt upon it, he thought it
eight to say something with respea to it here.. It
would be remembered by mansiGentlemen, that so
( long as twelve years ago, he had urged the pro-
priety of adopting a measure of this kind fir the

amelioration of the army. It would be renicant*.red
also that he never expeded from the adoption
of it, any sudden etied, but rather a. gradusi
amelioration in the, recruiting of the army, lead-
finally to the most beneficial elfeds. I le was of
opinion that the measure, se flit- as it had now been
tried, gave full appearance of the benefits he bad an-
ticipated, and he was satisfied that while it continued
to be tried, it would be found more beneficial every
year. It was no argument against the •permanent
benefit, that no rapid improvemeet had yet been felt :
It was not till last Odober that the measure had been
regularly carried, into effeas—consequently there
had not been a fair trial in the last year. It would,
perhaps, be taking too inuch.credit to this measure
to impute to it the whole of the improvement in the
recruiting department that had 'taken place since
Oaober ; but .it was certain that it had been emi-
nently successful in the two great objeds of obtain-s
ing a greater number Of men at a lower bounty. It
had also been eminently successful in another great •
. and beneficial-point of view, the diminution of de-
sertion. These great advantages were conspicuous'
in the short period of ,the last year in which the
new system had been aeted upon ; and if it had
been triedin the other eight months of the year, 'he
was certain the beneficial effe&s of it would have:
been more conspicuous. These were 'the only to-
pic's he felt it his duty' to notice. If any Gentleman
required further explanations, he would most readily
give them. He concluded with moving, that
113,795 effective men be granted to his Alajesty fpr,,
guards and garrisons in Great Britain;
Lord CASTLEREAGg had listened with great
attention to the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, and though he did not mean 'to enter into the
items, he confessed he certainly felt considerable
difficulty in entering into this discussion, from,the
circumstance of the Estimates not being printed, and
-still more from the want of any distind specifica;
Lion as to a peat part of the expence, that arising
out of the 'new measures adopted in the last Session-.
It was difficult to come prepared to state an opinion
generally upon a large' branch of the public ex-
, penditure, when a 'great part .of the expenditure_!
of that branch remained wholly unexplained.---He
-thought Parliament wassuimeeessely tubjeded to
this difficulty, and that a more full explanation '
.might have been afforded before 'the Estimates- were
called for. He had imagined that When a new Parlia-
anent was called together at a period so unusual, and
so inconsistent with 'the habits of the Country,' some
measure conneaed'with the paramount,interests of
the people must have been the motive. Nothing,
however, had yet been submitted to Parliament but
the ordinary routine business, except merely the Ne-
gotiation Panels. And he was of opinion that the dis-
cussion of that subjed too might better have been
postponed till a period more congenial to the Parlia-
mentary praaice of business, and more likely to be
accompanied with a full attendance of Members.—
Such- a postponement would have suited a subject
involving so materially thecharader and conduct of
Ministers, and the honour and interest of the coun-
try; and it would have been more becoming
than fix unnecessary precipitation with which
aje Papers had been forced upon the cobsideration
or Paruanaent. vile -rugur
had. opened this debate, was not in the immediate
Councils of his Majesty ; but he held a high atrol
responsible situation, and ought, therefore, to be able ,
to assign sufficient grounds for the Manner in which
he at:led. In the last year the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had brought forward the Army Estimated four
times instead of one, in order to allow time to mature
the arrangements which were then under contempla-
tion. He wished to know why the same space might
not be now allowed for the completion and elucida-
tion of arrangement, and what Occasion there was
for the present unexplained precipitancy ? There
was on the Notice Book an ijatimation from the
Right Hon. Gentleman at the of the Admiralty,
that he meant on Friday to move for 10,000 ad-
ditional seamen. He did not suppose'that he should
resist the Motion ; but he tliought it would have
been- better to complete the arrangement for they
year before any yearly Estimates were submitted,
rather than to come forward with ari imperfect Es-
timate in the first instance, and a supplementary
Estimate after. He was sorry to see the House called
upon by the present prop-moon to sanaion by im-
plication the new military measures, the charges for
which were included in the vote without any expla-
nation as to their"effed, or their distind expence.
He, for one, thought that system could not possibly
p
be persevered in. It was particularly improper to
call on a new Parliament at the close of a Christmas
Mondays, when Members were not in full attendance,
to approve. those :measures, without a full explana- '
tion of their effeel, and a distind, specification of the
expence. This precipitancy was the less excusable,
as there would have been no difficulty to vote any
necessary sum on account, in order to allow time to
place the whole .ssibjea, in all its branches, fully un-
der the view of the House. 'The Hon. Gentleman
had Made his,stetement With great candour; but he
had, in his opinion, taken too narrow a view of the
subject ; and much of the last part 'of what the
Hon. Gentleman had said made him sorry that the
custom of building upon establishments had been
resorted t 0.7: The effeaive force on foot should be.
looked:. to, and then it would be to be consi-
dered whether Ministers had an. army adequate
to the exponce to which they put the Country ; and
whether there was any reason to hope for a force
suffiCient to consume what Parliament was called
upon to vote., This boasted National saving of
.240,0061. always exceptkig the new expenditure,
was an economy upon establishment alone, and not
upon the ette6tive force 'serving against 'the enemy.
'He should be extremely glad to see in his Majesty's
Ministers any indications of vigour which would
justify him in looking forward to the efficient ex-
penditure of 'a great part .of their ,supplies, which
could not possibly be expended in the present state
of thC army. He was sure the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite had too much fairness to arrogate credit for
economy upon the comparative establishments, taken
at different times, and ender different circumstances.
Tho Ugh the Hon. Gentleman was not in the Cabinet,
lie ought to be able to state fully the grounds of any
Vote he proposed. The Hon. Gentleman ought to
ground the vote, not on the Estimate, but on Atte ef-
fedive. Upon reference to the Estimates, the gross
nutnher of men was 334,141), From this was to be.
dediOed the number of Commissioned and Non-
commissioned Offwers and Privates,. who amounted,
in the 'proportion of about one-eighth, to about

41.,05, leaving 291,100. This wa, the estimate
establishment ; but looking to the effect:live, thereovaa-
a further deduaien to be made for a•deficienevad
37,000, which would reduce the nainal force to
260,5. He was always desirous to vote supOies to 1
the full extent in which 'theylkiiild be Made Use of
fur the benefit of the country ; bat he thought it too.
Much to ask funds for 37,000 men who were not.
in -eXiStenee; nOr likely to SO7Ttlils%jestY's
Ministers could shew any. probability that in any
part of the year these 37,000 men would be in ser-
vice, he would readily grant the vote;. but, it' there ;I
were, no prospects' of that, though he held it to be .!
the duty of the Flotte to grant the-fullest supplies
that could be made use of for the benefit of the
Conntry, he could not in any case think it warrant- j
able to grant a supply of this amount without any
_
prospea that it would be used. The total absence
of ground for the demand was enough to render d
it indispensibie with him 'to refuse the grant,.
however unwilling he was to do so. It was the
duty of Ministers to adopt measures calculated'
to carry the etfeaive strength of the army to the,
height at which it ought to be ; for in all the dis 7
cussions this subject' had undergone,:,in all the di-
versity of opinions as to the means, this one
‘prin-
ciple, at least, was universally agreed 'upon, that the
effective strength of the regular army ought to be.
carried considerably beyond its present
Nothing had occurred since the agitation of mili-
tary subject's in that House; in March last, to induce
any wish to diminish the force of the country. 'four
operations could not be direaed towards the Continent,
our troops might be employed in maritime attacks. It
was true, that in March last the French armies
were on the borders, of Hungary, and that now they
were oil the banks of the Vistula ; but this was not
a circumstance which should lead us to be remiss in
ourexertiOns". If the it:ten-id security of the Coa-
try were a matter of concern to the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (and that Right Hon. Gentle,
man had formerly expressed himself very glooMily
on that subject), he wished him to consider in what,
situation Great Britain might 'Be placed if the
French Emperor, having obtained his. object in: Po'-:
land, was enabled, either by peace or by war,' to
liberate his army from that country. Prussia had
been moved from the military map of Europe.
The power of the Enemy would'envelope us from
the Baltic to the extremity. of Europe. If, there-
fore, at the period to which he' had alluded, the
Right av7onourahle Gentleman agreed that great
exertions were necessary, every thing that had since ,
happened,- every thing that was now happening.
should prompt him to increase those exertions.
what hart the late Ministers pledged themselves op,
this stabjed ? Not merely to a general augmentar
lion of our military strength ; they had specificallx, ;
stated the manner in which that strength shouldba.„!
effedually increased. When he bad himself deelqeo
(at the time when be had the honour of a sent on the
opposite bench) for adding to or 25 thousand
men to our army, the Right Hon. Gentleman ran be-
fore him on that subject. And when that Right Hon.
Gent. came into power, his determination appeared to
keep pace with his former opinion, and he expressed
his sanguine expectations of obtaining an army great
nc rhp imonrtant crisis in which we are now placed
demanded. The late Right Hon. secretary for the
War Department had 'also 'gone• so far as to ex-
press indignation at the limits which he (Lord Cas-
tlereagh) had proposed to set to the augmentation, j
and spurned the idea of any bounds to it.—He had
called on the Country to rouse from the slumber ;
in which it had so long been sunk, and endeavour
to •regain its ancient military' charader. Under -all
these. sanctions, he was justified in contending,
that it was the general: opinion that the natibtral
terests imperatively required a great -augmentation'
of the army, and that no means should be left untried''
to accomplish this important objea. The Country
had a right to expectthe accomplishment of this ob- 1
jea from. his Majesty's present Ministers.—Above i!
all, they bad a right to expel it from-the lkight Hon.
Secretary; for the War Department, who both in the
late Administration, and in that of Lord Sidmouth,
had said that those Administrations should be dis-
graced and degraded for the inefficiency of their 1
military measures. He had contended' that they
should be successively displaced. For what ?
To make room for a Government having his coun-
tenance, and in whom the Empire could repose with 1
confidence their trust of forming an army .adequate 1
to the interests of this Country, and the situation of ;
Europe. What had been the increase, of our milt
a
strength ? He would coMpare it with the Right
Ho
Gentleman's
idea of the increase necessary'
t.
he would compare the Right Hon. Gentleman with;
himself—he would compare his Adininist rationuwith
the Administrations that bad incurred his pciiiited
censures. Our ,effedive military strength, rank and 1
ale, on the Ist of March 1805 (when the change of I
Government took place) was 248,682 (by some error
in ,the Papers laid on the, table, it was stated
at 249,6;,..7; but the forger was the correct num-
ber) ; on the Ist of January !806, -our effe6.tive
mili-
tary strength, rank and ale, was 254,065, being an
increase of about 5000. Our regular-army at the
fbrmer period was 173,600 ; at the latter period
173,500, being an increase of between 4 and 5000.
Now ;f this increase' were compared with the im-
•pressions which his Majesty's Ministers had declared •;
that they felt of the necessity Ola considerable aug-
mentation, it would evince a most miserable failure; ';
bitt,, on looking at the,recruiting account, the sob-'
jea would appear in a still worse light. It would be.
seen that, between January and June 1806, .5,834
men had been raised by the operation of Mr. •'
Pitt's• Bill, the Additional Delence.Aa ; 3620 had
been raised by it between the Ist of March and
the 24th of June, during the time when it was
languishing and dying away under the tbreats of
destrudion announced against it by' his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. It was, nevertheless, evident,'
but • for the operation of that Bill, the actual
state of the army would not have been increased one ;
man since Parliament last deliberated on the subject,
and since the present' Government came into power.
Had it not been for this Bill, and the recruiting trytn
the Irish Militia (Which produced i 3'ooo men), the.
Right Hon. Gentleman would have met Parliament
under the degraded and, melancholy stigma, not only
of having negleaed to increase our army, but of
haVing suffered it to be wasted under circumstances
which called upon the Country fur greater military
exertions than it ,had ever heretofore made: The
casualties also which he had last Session stated, and'
be. feared too justly stated, must_ amount on the

eseerage. to 15,0001., a-year, It was to be observed,
thateeowing probably to his Majesty's Ministers
having
‘so entirely engrossed themselves with ail
Negotiation with 'France, that they seemed un-
tile lately to have divested their mindi of every
idea of carrying on' offensrve operations- against
Hthe Enemy, no military efirt had been 'made,
consequently thy
.number of casualties had been Jess;
but we must expect that. to 86,000 troops now
employed in 'Foreign, Service, the nember of casual.'
„ties would considerably increase. It was impossible to
suppose that they would be exempt from the natural
consequences of battle. Nothing could be farther
from his mind than to-press an invidious comparison
between the Right Honourable Gentleman and other
individuals ; but be trusted that the comparison
which he had made would have a tendency to rousd
that Right Hon. 'Gentleman's exertions, and thus
prove advantageous both to the Country and te, his
own charaCter. Did the Right Hoe. Gentleman recol-
leEt the declaration which he made at the opening thd
last Session of Parliament, that such were the military
:4ecessities of the, Country, that not an hour should
lie lost to epair ;the evils with which we were threat"
cued ? . Let him 'look at the growth of the regular
Army under former Administrations, and compare it
with the groWth under the present Administration,
end the comparison might snggest to him a little
distrust of his own ability for military arrangements,
and a .great deal cif forbearance from the remarks on
the ability of others. Examine the increase of tilt
Regular Army from the Ist of July, 1803, to the
tst July, • 1804, 'during the Administration of Lord
Sidmouth---an Administration so much vilified by
the Right Hon. Gentleman ! On they Ist of July,
1803, the Regular Army amounted to b 9,342 men.
the Ist July, 1804, it amounted to 140,119
men, being an increase' in one year of 40,777 men.
But the Right. Hod. Gentleman's magazine of
• military sarcasms' was not 'exhausted .during the
AdminktratiOn of Lord Sidmouth. He continued
-to vent his reproaches.on the Administration by
Which it was succeeded.' That Administration cone
tinned in office. until thebegineing of February, /806.
He had before stated, that on the Ist of July, 1204,
the regular for& amoudted,' t0'140,119 men. 00
the Ist of Afarch, 1806, (th nearest period to which
the accounts were made up)'ieamounted-to 173,600
men; making ati increase init weritYhion,ths of 33,481
men. L—the Country- compare thimit ft- ftte- increaso
under the Right Hon. Gentlenian's 'management),
from the middle of Febriii?rtiithe present moment,
of between
~tour and five thlniand. men ! an in-
, crease too for which he Was'•totally indebted to the
expiring efibrts of the Additional Defence
But he, owned that when he heard the Right Hon-
Gentleman talking in a Strahl of romantic enthusiasrn
ee-of carrying the military glory Of Britain to a higher
,''pitch than it had hitherto attained ; he anticipated
""the consequences that' had ensued. The Right Hon.
Gentlemah had been 'perpetually telling the late Ad
ministration, ``• take away your Mese—take awaY
your useless machinery,' and be bOund to get yoti
a better army than you ever had before." Had 11°
dOne so ? He would proceed to examine the mull'
leers raised by ordinary lectuiting. It would b°
found that the produce and 1805 had not
differed materially from the average of former yea*
Calculating the aunnalprduce of the larditlary re:
cruiting under the Right Honourable GentlemP°'
inaoagedlent, at the rate of the
\month of Pe'
cember which. was the highest in point of
number, and, including` a regiment _of. 658 mello
which ought not to be taken into the account, as they
were raised under the operation of the measures of A
fbrMer Administration, it would be found not to ev
ceed 11,800 men. The numbers raised inlBos by the
ordinary recruiting (when the Additional. Deleuce
Aft was operating against it) was 11,677 ; so that,
excluding the regiment which he had mentioned,
the ordinary recruiting at present was less produce
tive than in 1805, notwithstanding, all the embar-
rassments to which it had then been subjeet. It did
not appear therefore that one man more had enlisted
from the temptation of theßight Hon. Gentlemada
system, and he could not but be convinced that what
the Country had paid to make this unsuccessful at-
tempt was but the earnest of future more extravagant
and more hopeless disbursements. In the year
.1805, 'the actual number of men that was obtained ,
for the army by the ordinary recruiting was 11,677'
by the Additional Defence Bill 8388,: by the err
listments from the British Militia 8963, by the eh-
iistments from the Irish . Militia 4617, making'
a gross increase of above 33,000 men, exclusively
of above 9000 obtained by foreign levies. After
deducting the casualties, the net increase might
be estimated in that single year, at above 21,00
Men, while the whole amount under the Right
Honourable Gentleman's system, with all his won'
derful vigour and -exertion, and calculated in the
most favourable manner, did not exceed betwcea
.13 and 14,000 ! After be had thus shown that thi
experiment had fundamentally failed, he wished that
the comparison of expence between the Right Hon'
Gentleman's system and those which preceded it
would afford consolation ; but the rei-erse was the
case. At. the outset of the business, tun Right Hon'
Gentleman statek. that he conceived out of the ne
experiment an expence of 450,0001. woulthimrile;
diately arise. He (Lord Castlereagh) had calculated.
it at 493,0001. -When. the ,Estimates were printed
it would be found 'to be more. This was the
'first visible effect 'of an experiment which;had OPt
produced a single additional man to the army ! 13ot
this was not the only new expellee originating ru
this Measure. • Two-thirds of the increase of e%'
pence in the Navy Estimates -might justly be attn'
buted to it ; for there could be no doubt tie
it was the Right Honotimble iGentleman's
plan which prompted the' Noble Lord ht the head
of the Aidmiralty, during the: last,Session of Parlia- ,
meat, to propOse an augmentation:in the pay of the
Potty OtlicerS in his ,Majesty's-b Navy ; an ataginctlt°'
tion which he allowed 'beeatife,'ntlteseary in conse-,
quence of that plan, hut which certainlyincreaseje
the annual expanditerebeithe Country, during 11)1,
Ware on this point alone`flo'6etween 7 and 800,000
The Right Hon. Gentleman Would perhaps say, th'il
the Reuse ought not to pronounce us iturely on 'l
experiment of this nature. lie wule be the last
man to urge the hasty abandonment of a itiiita''
measure, if any hope remainedof its success, elt
any argument contd. be • adduced in its favour, Uf o
if the situation of the Country Was Snell
a„
to render it eligible -to dote_ au add4ieual P'e„
lied to Rt. trial. He (Lord Castlereagh) had tv“
pressed the Douse to Continue a military I.ll°