The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-23 00:00:00

Larr SITTING.

The report of the sudden. and Yery dangerous
indisposition of that eminent literary man, Sir WA I.TEE
Scorr, is, we are happy to hear, untrue. It originoted
in a mistake, and applied to Sir WALTER'S heal'h a s.hort
time back, when, from lassitude, or some other cause.
the worthy and kind-hearted Baronet Wog very unwell.
Sir WALTER ScorT has sold his house in Edinburgh, and
has retired to his picturesque retreat at Abbotsford, where
he is actively engaged in his literary pursuits, stud in the
improvement of his large estate. His favourite daughter,
Mrs. LocKHART, with her children, intends Nh6rth. - to
visit Abbotsford, and afterwards resume the possession of
Mr. LOCKHA RT'S comfortable cottage, situated only a few
miles from his father-in-law's mansion.-21fortting Paper.

T of the frightful extent of Parisian
me
aN,tG.a-reTABLE---There are few per-
- -
existed no sufficiently in-trne-
tive cautions on this topic for young Englishmen visiting
sgoanbwlliinhEgo.; are G
but AnMotl
there
have
the dissipated French metropolis, until the recent appear-
picture of the tramtactions at some.
ance of " Frascati's, or Settles in Paris," which girt a a
the Pidais Royal, representing all the
pemehli
rn,
et)unrt:e
;tee
daan d
scenesh fuasi , t
shafi
nun
di
consequences of this absorbing vice,
The striking and veritable narrative incidentally giveo.i*
the work under the name of a " Diary of an English
liouge.et-nOir Player in Paris," is well worth primal.

Fi 0 USE OF LORDS, MARCH 22.
Lord ROLLE pre4, rated a petition from Exeter agains:-
11,';)cm, observing that he concurred entirely with irF

prayer.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished to ark the Noble
1.001 one question. He (Lord Robe) had presented a pe-
tition against the Reform proposed by his Majesty's Mi-
mst•rs, but he (the Duke of Richmond) wished to
know whether the. Noble Lori did not feel convinced that
the voice of the country was unanimously in favour of it.
Lard ROI:LE did not feel himselfc died upon to answer
that question, but he himself was against it.
The Marquis of SALISBURY admitted there was a
'strong feeling in the country in favour of Reform.
The Marquis of CLANRICA[tDE bore testimony to
the nearrimitv that prevailed all over the country in favour
of the question.
Petmons were presented by the Duke of Gloucester,
against slavery ; by the Earl of Aberdeen, from Aber-
(ben, against the proposed duty on timber, and from
the same place ag inst the duties on steam-vessel passen•
gers ; by. the Duke of Norfolk, from Paddington, it,
favour of Reform ; by the Earl of Radnor, from Cal-
Jington, to the same effect; by Lord Candor, from a pa-
rish in Wales, to the same effect; by the Marquis of
Cleveland, from Shrewsbury, in favour of Reform and ex-
pressing their approbation of the conduct of his Majesty's
Ministers ; by the Marquis of Devonshire, from Down,
against slavery.
Sir A. GRANT and others from the Commons brought
up several private Bills. The Bills on the table were for-
warded a stage.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented upwards of
one hundred petitions from different parts of the country,
in favour or the measure proposed by his Majesty's Mi-
nisters for Reform.
BANKRUPTCY JUDICATURE BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR stated that he had had no
answer as yet from the Lord Chief Baron, and therefore
be would at once fix the second reading of the Bank-
ruptcy Judicature Bill for Monday, the 18th of April.
The House must meet on the 13th, as the Judges were
summoned for that day, although it might meet earlier.
There was another Bill which he had not forwarded even
one stage, as the Noble Chief Baron had intimated that
_ .

he bad serious objections to it, and he was desirous, there-
fore, that be should be present when it should be proposed
for reading for the first time. There were two other Bills
which had been brought in—one of them relative to the
administration of the Registers and Six Clerks' Offices.
As to these, -he had gone through an account of the say-
inL,s, and found that what he had stated on a former occa-
sion was much within the mark. He bad taken the
average of the income of the Commissioners at 300/. a
but he now found that it was 4001., and that some
lists made seven or 8001. a year—all which must occa-
sion great contentment to the Learned Gentlemen, but
had occasioned great discontent to the merchants, bankers,
and principal traders of London, 4,500 of whom had peti-
tioned against their continuance. Now, after the Insol-

vent Debtors' Court had taken away much of the busi-
ness fiom the Commissioners, that Court being pre-
ferred, old they had—taking the average of the years
1828, 1529, and 1830—a revenue, from the ties, of
63,197!. This was when the business of bankruptcy
was at a low ebb, for the average of some previous
years would have made the revenue, from the fees
411 suitors, 100,0001. It was now reduced to 63,1971.
By the present plan the fees would be reduced to 34,8001.,
or, if their Lord.hips chose to take away the fees of the
Lord Chancellor and give him 7,000/. in some other wav,
the expen-e would he only 27,000/. Supposing then that
the Lord Chancellor was still to be allowed 7,0001. out of
the fees, the saving to the suitors from the fees would he
20,0001 ; if the Lord Chancellor should be paid out of
another fund, then the saving would be 36,000/. Then,
as to the .51,000/. out of the fees to the master, that
would he reduced by the salaries to 38,0001. There were
other material savings, mate by the Bill, which would
make the whole saving 67,5001., or, if their Lordships
chose st;11 to give 7,500/. out of the fees to the Lord Chan-

celior, the saving would still be 60,0001. It might be
said that was trifling in a State where the public expen-
diture was so many millions. But then, with reference to
the euitors it was a most important saving—particularly
in copy money, and matters of that sort, which would be
completely lopped off. He did not, however, put his
plan forward on the ground of economy, his Noble Friend
on the Cross Brileh being the first who pill, it on that
footing. The great object was to have justice well and
expedit'ously administeied, but there was no objection to
god and expeditious justice, so that it was also cheap.
Lord WYNFORL) strongly suspected that his Noble
and Learned Friend's ealcuiations had been founded on
fella, y, and that, when he Nt,ted the revenue of the Com-
mi,sioners at 63097/, be must have included in the
average tie year 1826, when there was but too much
business done before the Commissioners of Bankrupts.
He hoped that the Noble and Learned lord would favour
bin with the grounds materials from which he made
his calculations, that they might be on a level with him-
self in that respect. He had some knowledge of bank-
"ruptey himself, anal its expenoes, although his practice had
Veen eit fly before superior Courts; and the conclusion to
winch he came was entirely different from that of his
Na*le and Learned Friend. As to the alleged saving of
60,0001 , he was sure there must be a great fallacy in
that. his Noble and Learned Friend must have in.

chided the fee• of solicitors ;n the amount of savings, but
these would not be saved, for the fees of solicitors must
be paid as before. lie undertook to prove that the charge
f,a• tie C,mmissoners did net exceed 21,0001. Then, by
the new plan, there were ten Judges, two registers, and
seven chief clerlss,lesides a body of assignees ; and he was
persuaded that tie expence would much exceed that of the
present Co►nmissioners instead of falling below it, if the offices
should be filled be men capable of doing the duties. He
wi-bed that his N.ble and Learned Friend would lay en
the tahle an analysis of the materials on which he made his

calcuNtions, and rhen he Velieved it would he maul e,t

that there would be no saving, but the contrary. As for
the London petition, be was not surprised at that, because
the ehary s Ilia ought to rent on them chiefly would be
laid on the whole kingdom. No doubt the plan would be

very palateable to them; but whether it would be so to
the rest of the country wai another question. lie hoped
his Noble and Leirned Friend would lay the papers and
accounts on which he relied on the table, that they might
be exalcined by a Committee if necessary. He did net
mean to lbject to the measure on the ground of increased
expense, but his object was to saddle the whole
country with that expense which ought to be borne
by the commercial classes of London, and to that
be objected. 'The Bill ought not to have originated, in
this Muse, but in the other, where it would have been
examined by a Committee, and the expenses accurately
inquired into.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—His Noble and Leirned
Fi lend sail that he knew nothing of the details of the Bill.
Lord WYNFORD—He had not said so; on the con-
ti ary, he had examined them very minutely.
Tie LORD CHANCELLOR—His Noble and Learned
Fri,nd then thought that he hi.d examined them, and he

l'ettainy did not mean to mislead their Lordships. But he
(the Lord Chancellor) knew that he was wrong. His
Noble and Le4rned Friend still put the matter on the

pround of economy and cheapness, but that was not the
main object. If there were one hundred reasons for the
measure, he would alow ninety-n;ne to he exclusive of
economy, and only considered that as the hundredth.

There was always a clamour against Reform among ti,ose
with whom Reform of any kind was at a discount, There-
fore it was said that this would be a dear Bill. His

Noble and Le &rned Friend said that the expense of the

Commissioners was only twenty-one thousand pounds, and

that he could-not tell on what ground his (the Lord Chau-

ce!lor's) calculations had been founded. But what if he
bad asked the Commissioners themselves, bad sent circu-

!ars to them, and had got twenty returns, on which, taken

at rdndorn, he had calculated his averages ? That wa.,
however, the fact, and he had found that the average for
each Commissioner was 410/. The returns from the other

fifty he WWI persuaded would not alter the average, and
there were two of the lists whose returns would have

raised • : st, and these were part of the documents on which
he had proceeded. His Nolde and Learned Friend had said
that he must have taken the years 1825-6 into account in
calculating the average income of the Commissioners.
He had distinctly
years, but calcuatite4eti
stated that he had not taken these
had
averages of the years 1828,
1829, and 1830.
ttal: his eyes,
Mend, but if be 60.. tt not. misled his Noble and Learned
b mice for not being able he had himself to
awl verse, but still his Noble He bad quoted chapter
ZdeLearned Friend could not
sic, or
intorrnati coonuld6 oni orkly
the uffice see on onof the e aid
seHe had also procured
o were the
and that, with the returns of the Coc,,,rmetm7 of Bankrupts,
most accurate that could be found on thrLa•
übners,
could be no fallacy, for it was a mere
nmatte r
oifec attbmetie.
There
sinless lie supposed that the Secretary f Bankrupts and the
Commissioners themselves falsified the returns, Which
would be an extravagant supposition. These were the
grounds on which he had calculated that the revenue of
Cie Commissioners, Irons the fees was 63,1971. He spoke
.... _. .

from chapter and versa. Him Nob:e and Learned Friend
said that he knew lit le about the expences of bankruptcy,

he showed him that be knew nothing. His -&1_,14

and Learned Friend said that he did not wonder at the
petition of the merchants and bankers of London, and vet
he had, on former occasions, spoken in the highest terms of
the importance of their sentiments when they gave their
opinions on a state question, of which perhaps they knew
little, and new he held their notions cheap when they gave
their opinions on a subject with which they were
thoroughly acquainted. Who doubts, said his Noble and
Learned Friend, that the merchants and bankers of London
find the scheme very palatable, as it would saddle the whole
kingdom with an expence that they ought to bear ? But
how did the matter stand ? The Commissioners were paid
by the fees—fees from the suitors or creditors of the bank-
rupts—and the new Judicature would still be paid out of
the fees, but the amount of these fees would be diminished.
There would he no transfer of the burden to the public, as
hia Noble and Learned Friend seemed to suppose. There
was net a shadow of foundation for his objection. The
axpence was to be paid out of the fees from the suitors' or
creditors' estates.—(Lord Wyseotto—Hear, hear. There
was nothing of this in the Bill.) Aye ; Hear, hear ! but
listen. It was nut in the Bill, for it Was not to be supposed
that it was to commence with a preamble of " whereas the
cost and expences of the existing method of conducting
matters in bankruptcy, and so forth ;" such a preamble
would be merely useless gossip. But he had distinctly
stated, that the savings which he hail state,' were to be
made by the diminution of the fees. The compensation to
the Commissioners was to come from the dead fund of the
suitors in Chancery ; and if he took out of that fund the
amount of the compensation, he put into it 6,0001.
which, by the present system, was paid to the eleven
Masters in Chancery. And then this compensation was
to last only fur the lives of the Commissioners, or until
they got other appointments. It was a mistake to say
that these bankruptcy matters had nothing to do with the
Court of Chancery. The ultimate appeal was to the head of
the Court of Chancery, fur there was no appeal from him
to the House of Lords. But suppose that the cumpensa-
ought not to lie taken out of that fund, he might leave it

, .
there, but then he would come upon it for the Vice-Chan-
cellor and the Master of the Rolls, who were certainly
connected with the Court of Chancery. The fund con-
sisted. in a great measure, of accumulations of interest,
upon interest which could never be called for, and was,
therefore, to a certain extent, applicable to public pur-
poses, and had been dealt with by Parliament upon that
principle. As to the documents on which he had made
his calculations, all of them might he laid on the table of
the House, if their Lordships chose to call for them. He
was ready to brine them before the House, and to answer
for their correctness. The number of Judges was to be
20 instead of 70, and there was to be a great retrench-
ment in the department of the clerks. The expellee of
new Judges would he 20,0001.. and 13,000/. was to he
allowed for other officers, which would render the ex
pences of the whole establishment about 33,0001. or
31,000/. instead of 63,197/. ; and even if he had chosen
to be more stingy, there were abundance of able and
competent men, who would be very glad to accept the
appointments. But he repeated, that he did not pot for-
ward this plan on the footing of economy. The object
was not to render justice cheap to the public, but 41 n-
der it cheap to the suitor. But cheap justice might be
dear. It was the first duty of the pubic to render the
administration of justice as perfect and expeditious as
possible, without regard to the expence ; for injustice,
however cheap, must always be dear.
Lord WYNFORD, after some additional observations,
moved for a❑ order to the Commissioners to lay the returns
on the table.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said there was some

difficulty in point of form, as the Commissioners were not
public officers, and had no general office to which the order
was addressed. But he was a public officer, and would
lay the returns on the table.

-It was, after some further convers-ition, agreed that it
should he directed to the Secretary of Bankrupto, after
which the motion %Via put and carried.

REFORM.

Earl GREY presented a petition in favour of the Mi-
nisterial plan of Reform from the county of Northuinher-
land, agreed to at a county meeting held at Morpeth.—
He bad before presented a petition for Reform gerierahy,
from the same county, but they had thought it proper to
assemble the county again, in order to petition in favour of
this specific plan of Reform. Ifis Lordship, in the ab-
sence of a Noble Duke (Bedford), also presented two
petitions to the same effect, one from the inl4abitants and
the other from the Corporation of Bedford. The Corpo-
ration expressed their readiness to sacrifice their own pe•
culi.ir privileges to the good of the community. This was
highly creditable to the Corporation of Bedford. His
Lordship next presented a heap of 42 petitions to the
,me effect, from a variety of places, among which were
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Nlontrose, Leith, the parish of Sr.
Bride's, London, &c.

Lard DURHAM presented a petition to the same effect
From 25,000 of the operatives of Glargow. The peti-
tion was well worthy of attention, in reference to what

hid been said about ulterior objects. The petitioner)
stated, that, although they would have no votes under
this plan, yet they highly approved of it, because it would
be a great good to the cmntry, end would secure to them-

selves, as well as others, good representation. They stated
that they weie hostile to revolution ; for that, although
they had little to lose, they wished to enjoy in peace and
security the fruits of their labours. His Lordship then
presented another petition, to the same effect, from a dif-
ferent class of persons—namely, the inhabitants of the
parist, of St. James, Westminster.
All these petitions were laid on the table.
Lord MELBOURNE gave notice that he would move
the second reading of the Sub-letting Bill on Tuesday.—
Adjourned.

HO USE OF COMMONS, 41.42e11

In consequence set there being a ballot for a Committee
on the Forfar Election, the gallery Wall not opened till
Half-past Four
Air. 31.KINNON presented a petition f:orn Ipswich
in favour of the plan of Reform propesed by Ministers.
Mr. J. SMITH presented a similar petition from Lime.
house.

Alderman WAITHSfAN had several petitions to pre-
sent in favour of Parliamentary Reform. As the
prayer of the petitioners in each was similar, he would
not occupy the time of the House with any observations,
but merely remark that the whole of them were moat e•
spectably signed. The petitions were then preserved. They
were from the parish of St. Sepulchre, from the ward of
Bridge-street, from St. Bride's, front Bloomsbury and
St. Giles's, and from Greenwich.

Alderman WOOD presented a petition in favour of
Reform, from the ward of Aldgate.
Admiral SOTHERON would take that opportunity
of informing the House that his Hon. Colleague bad a pe-
tition to present from Nottingham, which was signed by
2.300 of the inhabitants. He had been instructed to
support that petition, but could not do so.---( Hear.) He
came down to the House, yesterday, determined to vote
for the second reading of the Bill—(Hear)—but after
hearing the debates of last night be could not conscien-
tiously do so.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear,"
from all parts of the House.) Although a petition
was resented in its favour from the place he had had the
honour of representing fit five successive Parliaments,
yet, after the speech that closed the debate of last night,
he could no longer give the measure of Ref,rtn his support.
Lord J. RUSSELL had no doubt the Gallant Admiral
was honest in his avowal. He had no doubt he was nut
actuated by fear or importunity. But really there was
something inconsistent in his conduct, after hearing the
first debate, and declaring his approval, to turn round and sty
he could not vote for the second reading.---( Hear.) The
Gallant Admiral had changed his opinion from heating
only a part of the debate on the second reading ; he had
not waited to hear the arguments against the objections
raised last night—( Hear)—they were capable of being in-
stantly dispelled. He would repeat, he had no oubt
the Gallant Admiral had acted honestly, but he must
say that he had pursued a course not consistent with
justice or honour as a Member of that Ilouse.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.")
. . . . . _

iked.

Sir J. YORKE could not acquiesce in the opinion of
the Noble Lord. Gallant Friend had made a noble
stand, and he would go hand in hand with Lim.—(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP—His Noble Friend had complained
that the Gallant Admiral should have made up his mind
without hearing the whole of the arguments, and thought
he was perfectly right in making such complaint.
Corning down, as he declared he did yesterday, to support
the second reading, he ought in common justice to have
waited till the clue of the arguments before be avowed a
change of opinion. The Hon. Member for Weymouth had
argued against the measure in the last speech that was
delivered last night. But that speech was capable of be-
ing answered ; therefore he should surely have waited
until an opportunity offered of so doing.—(llear.)
An HON. MEmava, whose name we could nut learn,
defended the conduct of the Gallant Admiral.

Alderman WOOD presented petitions from freeholders
of the county of Kerry; from .1. Sparrow, a liveryman of
the city of London, and from the wards of Cheap and
Billingsgate, in favour of the 111inisttrial plan of Parlia-
mentary Reform.
Air. PRINGLE prevented a petition front Selkirkshire,
againat the Reform Bill. The Hon. Member coincided
with the prayer ut the
Lord JOHN petition.—(Hear.)
RUSSELL. (at a quarter to 6ix) moved

the resumption of the debate on the second reading of the
Reform Bill.
A conversation took place between Sir C. Wetherell,
Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Ward, Mr. G. Baukes, Mr. Cavendish,
Sir 'l'. Baring, Lord Stormont, and Mr. Hume, respecting
the propriety of allowing further time for the presentation
lif petitions.
Mr. CALCRAFT said that as he intended to vote for the
second reading of the Bill—(Continued cheering)—he
stood up to request aat time might be given for the recep.
lion of petitions in that House, whether they were for or
against the measure.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that as the Right Hon.
Gentleman had put his request in so agreeable a manner.
(A laugh and cheers)—it would be quite impossible not to
.ieccde to it. He should, therefore, not object to the pre-
sentation of petitions up to seven o'clock.
Mr. F. PALMER presented a petition in favour of Re-
form from Reading.
Colonel PEEL (as we understood) presented a petition
from Norwich aeain,t Reform.
Lord STANLEY presented peti ions from Warrington,
Stockport, 13Iackhurn, andother places, in favour of
Reform.
Mr. SANDFORD presented similar petitions from
Chard, Wellington, GListonbury, Frome, and other places.
Lord EBRINGTON presented similar petitions from
Bethnal.ereen, Plymouth, East Stoneh,use, Devonport, and
Ashburriliam.
Sir H. HOWARD presented a similar petition from
Worthing.
Lord VILLIERS presented a petition from Rochester
against the disfranchisement of the freemen of Rochester

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented petitions

favour of Reform, from Andover, Monmouth, and another
place.
Mr. HUNT presented peti'ions from Newtown (Lan-
cashire), Whitehurch, and Eldersley, to the same effect.
Mr. S. RICE presented a petition to the same effect
!root Limerick ; also one from an individual.
Mr. NORTH asked when the Irish Reform Bill would
be introduced ?
Lord ALTHORP said, Ise believed it was prepared,
and it would be speedily brought in. He did not, how-
ever, see how its introduction could assist the debate on
the present Bill.
Mr. G. DAWSON complained, that no opportunity
was afforded to gentlemen connected with Ireland, to
form their opinion on the measure, He had no doubt
that, if the Bill was before the House, it would produce
a very different feeling in Ireland from that which was
supposed. As it was, it had already raised the greatest
alarm ; and, in his opinion, the people of Ireland had a
right to feel both offended and indignant at the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that the people of Ireland were
neither offended nor indignant; on the contrary, they were
filled with delight.--(Cheers.)—They certainly thought
that the Bill was capable of improvement ; but they trusted
to the same wise spirit that had dictated the present mea-
sure; and they had no doubt, that when the general mea-
sure was carried, the Bill fur Ireland would be amended.
MerG. MOORE said, that the present Bill did not
give satisfaction to Ireland ; for never had such dismay
and horror been felt in that country, as on the proposal of
this measure.—(Cheers, and a laugh.)
Mr. 0. O'CONNOR said a few words, which were in-
audible.

Colonel TRENCEI wished to know whether the Bill
which the Irish people were said to approve so much of,
was the Bid, the provisions of which had been explained
by the Noble Lord, or the Bill which the Hon. Member
for Watt- rford had explained in his speech. He believed
that the Irish would not support the Government Bill, but
a Bill such as that the Member for Waterford had de-
scribed, and that when they knew the provisions of the
Government measure, they could not be fivourably dis-
posed towards it. At any rate, it was true that Bill was
laid on the table.
Mr. BROWNLOW wished also that the Bill should be
laid on the table, and printed and circulated through Ire-
land, and he was sure that would be acceptable to the

people of that country. He knew that the Protestants o

the North of Ireland, and he was authorised to state it,
did highly approve of the measure of his Majesty's 'Aliiiisters.
Sir 11. lIARDINGE thought at least the Bill should be

immFdiately hid on the table, and be Oared that the

Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland would pledge himself,
whatever might he the result of the debate that evening, to
lay it on the table in the course of the evening.
Sir J. NEWPORT knew that at least, in one part of
Ireland, the provisions of the Bill for Ireland had been
rightly appreciated, for he had on Saturday presented a
petition from the Corporation of Waterford, in support of
the measure of his Majesty's Ministers. That Corporation
prayed that the Bill—the whole Bill—might p.ss into a law.
Sir G. CLERK complained that the measure should be
so well known in Ireland as to he commented on, while the
Members of that House were kept in ignorance of its con-
tents. It bad been made known to the people, but not to
their representatives. Even the Irish Members were not

acquainted with it. When the Irish people were hilly
acquainted with it, they might treat it as the Scotch treatd
the 13i11 that was to apply to that country, which, when it
was known, excited their dissatisfaction.,
Mr. STANLEY expressed his surprise to hear the ob-
servations of the Right Hon. Baronet. The Right Hon.
Baronet first complained that the Members of the House
did not know, and could not guess at the provisions of the

Irish Bill ; and then, with extraordinary consistency, as.
veiled that the Irish people would be sure to be displeased
with it when they knew it.—(Cheers.) The Irish people
placed, he was happy to say, a just confidence in his Ma-
jesty's Alinisters ; and the Hon. and Right Hon. Gentle-
torn in opposition, complained of them for bestowing that
confidence. A complaint was made that the Bill for Ire-
land hod not been brought in ; he had intended to do that,
hut did nut think it very necessary, while the House was
engaged with the discussion of the main question. When
that was disposed of, the House might argue the details of
the Irish Bill. He must express his surprise to hear the
Members of the Opposition say that they were ignorant of
• the principles, and ignorant of the object of that Bill,
when his No'de Friend had distinctly explained that it
would be to destroy the rotten boroughs—(Cheers)—to
throw open, but not disfranchise, all the other boroughs,
and generally to extend the elective franchise.—(Hear.)
The Right Hen. and Gallant Officer required him to •
pledge himself to lay the Irish Bill on the table, and state
the details of the Irish measure, whatever might be the
fate of the main question. So that would, he thought, be
treating the House with great disrespect ; and it would,
in fact, be as absurd to bring that forward after the great
question was disposed of, should it be disposed of as the
Hon. Gentleman opposite wished—as it would be to dis-
cuss the Evesham Bill when the great question was dis-
posed of as they did not wish.—(Cheers.) He should be
ready to bring forward that Bill when the House—as he

:rusted it mild—had concurred with the whole of the

people of Eng Lind, Scotland, and Ireland—(Cheers, and
no, uo,)—in giving its assent to the great principle of re-
forming the representation. When that was done, he
should be ready to meet the Hon. and Right Hon. Gentle-
men opposite on the details of the Irish measure.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY said that it did appear to
him extraordinary that the Bill for Ireland was not Lid
on the table if it were ready. He concurred in the ob•er-
rations of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir George Clerk.)

Sir H. FIAMSINGE and several other Members rose at
:he same time to address the House, but Sir Henry was

met with loud cries of " Spoke, spoke," and he sat down,
allowing us only to hear the words—" Not to lay the 13111

on the table is very unfatr."
Mr. D. BROWNE was sati,fled that the great ma-
jority of the people of Ireland approved of the measure of
his Majesty's Ministers. It was more than the people of
Ireland expected ; it was more than he expected ; and he
teas delighted when he heard the details of the noble

measure.--(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was sure that
the more it was known in Ireland the more it would be

Colonel TYRELL thought that the Irish Members,
who were so sure of the approbation of the Irish people
for a measure which was not yet known, must not only
see more than other people, but even foresee.—(llear. )
Lord L. GOWER must also express him astonishment
that the Bill was not laid before the House. He could nit

separate the Irish measure from the English measure; and
neither could it be considered isolated from the other. In
fact the whole measure was the most extensive, the most

sweeping, he might call it the most imperial measure, which
had been brought forward since the revolution of 1688.
Sir C. WETHERELL also complained that the Irish
Bill was not before the House, and expressed his opinion
that the Irish who approved of it must have great pre-
science. Of course, as the Right ifin. Secretary for
Ireland said, he was ready with the Bill, be would not
duubt his word, but if t!,e Right Hon. Gentleman had
not asserted that, he should have bee❑ disposed to believe
the Irish Bill was as yet as green as a shamrock—that
it was not yet drawn, and lay in some of the unopened
drawers of the serutoir at Derrinane, to be brought for-ward when the lion. Member for Waterford pleased. lie
could not help adverting to the manner in which that
lion. Member had been applauded ; and adverting to that
he did not hesitate to say that these were signs, he did not
assert of agreement, but of diplomatic approximation of
amicable tendencies b, tween the Hon. 31ember for Water•
ford and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. He said
tendencies,•though he knew that word was not liked ; but
he certainly saw tendencies of approximation between per-

sons who he did not think could approximate if the Go-
vernment acted a fair and independent part.—(No, no.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was surprised to hear
his Hun. and Learned Friend assert that the Irish Bill
was yet in the drawers of some scrutoire at Derrinane,
because he (the Attorney-General) had cheered the Hon.
Member for Waterford. Last night his Hon. and Learned
friend (Sir E. Sugden), in a speech in which he had en-
tered into a long discussion on the details of a Bill on its
Second reading, and this night again his Hon. and Learned
Friend had implied that the Government had compro-
mised with the Hurt. Member for Waterford. He did not
use to repel that charge on the part of that Hon. Mem-
ber, but to ask his Hon. and Learned Friend if it was fair
to infer, because Ministers approved of what fell from an
:ndividual Member on a political subject, that there must
be some approximations and amicable negociations be-
tween him and them. There must, forsooth, be negocia-
tions, and this must be openly stated in the House of Com-
atose, because the Ministers, when gentlemen of great
talents and eloquence had made an able speech, had done
him justice—(Cheers)—when the papers, connected with
this subject, were laid on the table, it would be seen that no
such negociation had ever been entered into by his Majesty's
Government, and that there was no ground whatever fur
the imputation made, which was m ide in a manner as ir-
regular as it was unjust. His Hon. and Learned Friend
spoke of approximations and amicable tendencies, hut had
certainly lost sight of his usual candour in making that
inference. There were, indeed, approximations among
gentlemen on the other side, though hew amicable they
were, he could not say—(Cheers)—but there were such
Approximations and tendencies on Friday night on the
question of the timber duties—that question to which the
late Government stood pledged—(Cheers)—and pledged to
carry into di', et—that alteration which, on Friday night.
Was OppOSed.-(Cheers.) From those negociations and
amicable approximations, it happened that, on Friday night,
the Ministers were left in a minority.—(Hear, hear. ) If
gentlemen exulted in that minority—( Hear, hear)—if they
were proud of the approximations and amicable negotia-
tions which led to it, he, fir one, did not envy them their
success, nor wish to imitate the means by which it was
obtained. He was reminded by the whole of the present
debates, of the debates on the Catholic question, the de-
cision on which was to leave no second Catholic question
behind it ; but which marked out for exclusion, and ac-
tually excluded the single man who, of all others, had con-
tributed to the success of that great and healing measure.
Mr. GOULBURN would only say, that his Majesty's
late Government was not pledged to make the alteration
in the timber duties. The statement that it was, was not
correct, and he was sure the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Poulett Thomson) would bear him out in his assertion.
Mr. POULETT THOMSON rose to answer the appeal
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made to him, and said
he should be most willing to confirm thestatement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, hut he confessed that he was notable to do
so by any infOrmation lie possessed. Although not prepared
to say that he possessed any information which convinced
him that his Majesty's late Government was prepared to
submit any measure for the alteration of die timber duties,
yet the intOrmation he possessed must greatly deceive him
—lie must be greatly mistaken, if it was not the intention
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Harwich,
to submit to his colleagues a measure fur the alteration of
the timber duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
asked.—(Question, question. )—ale appealed to the House
_he had been publicly appealed to—and was bound to
answer. The Right Hon. Gentleman asked him a ques-
tion, and he could only say, that he believed that it was
in the contemplation of his Majesty's late Government to
alter the timber duties, though that was coupled with
another measure to give relief to the ship-owners. At that
time he enjoyed a portion of the confidence of that body,
and he was one of a deputation which had waited on the
Right Hon. Gentleman on the subject; and though they
received no confirmation of their hope of obtaining re-
lief, they received an intimation that it was most likely
something would be done with those duties—the proposed
alteration in which the Right lion. Gr ntleman voted
against the other night.
Mr. HERRIES felt it necessary to state, that the in-
formation of the Right Hon. Gentleman was totally erro-
neous.—(Cheers.) He had never contemplated fur one
moment the view mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man—he had never contemplated any measure which
would have the effect of destroying the whole shipping,
amounting to 200,000 tons, engaged in the Canada trade.
—(Hear, and a laugh.) He had never contemplated for
one moment such an alteration of the timber duties as
would deprive the British ship-owner and the Canada pro-
prietor of the preponderance they now enjoy. He could
appeal to his Right Hon. Friend who sat near him (Mr.
Courtenay, we believe) for his intention. Had the Right
Hon. Gentleman any report?—Could he produce any do-
cument?—Had lie any document to prove his statement,
or did he rely on the information supplied by some subor-
dinate person, which was not right? He claimed dis-
tinctly to be believed, and he called on the House to put
faith in his assertion, that he never had contemplated such
an alteration as would occasion the inconveniencies stated
on a former evening by the Noble Lord,—(Question.)
Petition laid on the table.
Lard ALTHORP moved the order of the clay for re-
suming the adjourned debate.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose, but was met by loud calls of
" Order !" and " Question !" He had a right, he said, to
oppose the motion if he pleased, and a right, therefore, to
speak on it. He had been several times alluded to, and
made a topic of remark in the House, arid he thought the
House would not behave with its usual courtesy if it did
not allow him to say a few words. lie bad heard the Ex-
Solicitor-General and the Ex-Attorney-General, last
night and that night, throw out insinuations in relation to
hint and the Government. Both these gentlemen be-
longed to the same profession as he did, but he was glad
that they did not belong to the same bar, for it was at rule
of that bar that no member of it should ever voluntarily
engage in a criminal prosecution; but those two Learned
Gentlemen seemed to volunteer to prosecute him. That
was not creditable conduct. He had been accused by the
late Solicitor-General, too, of arrogance, in a tone which
he would not call arrogant, but which, not to be arro-
gant, was the most like arrogance of any thing he had
ever heard.—(A laugh.) He had been accused of looking
at the repeal of the Union through the medium of Reform.
but he had looked at the repeal of the Union as the means
of (draining good government; and if he obtained that by
other means, was he not bound to support those means ?
He had accordingly supported the measure of Reform
without looking at its origin, though, if he had consulted
his feelings, if be had lo ked at what had passed with re-
gard to himself, he should have taken a different course, and
not have supported the principle of the Bill. If tinder such
a view he hail chosen to object to the details, and
particularly if be had distorted, then he might have
pecked a hole in the measure as well as another. If, in-
stead of defending the Reform Bill on those great prin-
ciples which it inculcated and supported, he had taken up
the question connected with it on paltry, pettifogging
grounds, and dealt with them according to the chic awry
of the Courts—(Hear, hear)—if he had declared himself
a foe to all improvement ; if he had stood forth the enemy
of all amelioration of the condition of his fellow-creatures ;
if he bad said to all changes which bore the semblance of
bringing about a better condition of things to his fellow
creatures, and said to them, " thus far shalt thou go, and
nu farther"—(Hear, hear)—then, indeed, he would have
been cheered by time Hon. and Learned Member and his

associates ; and then, t 0,,, he might have hoped to miti-
gate their hostihty, and perhaps to secure their favour,—
(Ilear.)-11e stood there, however, an independent Mein.
her of that House—independent either of the Government
or of the party opposed to them. the had entered into no
compromise ; he had received no promises of lenity ; and
he denied that he was influenced in his support of the
Bin by any other motives than his conviction of its fitness
for the ends it proposed.

Sir C. WE FIIERELL begged to tell the Hon. Mem-
ber for Waterford, that the papers on which he founded
his opinions of. that Hon. Member's conduct were not
called for by him (Sir C. Wetherell.) The Hon Member
f„r Waterford (311.. O'Connell) had himself called for
these papers, and read and commented on them to the
House. When thus produced, surely it was competent
to any other Member to form an opinion on them different
from that of the Hen. Member lOr Waterford.—(Hear.)
It was the Hon. Member for Waterford, therefore, who
had introduced the means of forming an opinion on those
diplomatic approximations—(Cheers and laughter)—to
which he alluded. 'I he Member for Waterford had done
him
the favour to institute some comparisons between the
courses they had separably adopted. Comparisons were
odious things—(Hear)—particularly personal comparisons,
the (Sir C. Wetherell) begged to retire from the odium
and
f any comparison of that kind with the Hon. Member for
Vr'aterford.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)—He repelted,
that he had not charged the diplomatic approxima.ions
the Hon. Member, until he himself produced the evidence
of them. H., begged now, however, to retire from the
speculations connected with them. He retired,
too, from
any further controversy with respect to the spoliations of
which he hail been said to complain, and to which the
Hon. Member had adverted; but if he was disposed to
continue them, he thought he could bring to the re-
col cction of the House a man who haul dealt in
spoliation,, and made them beneficial to himself, by
handing a begging box round among his friends.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.")--Wbet would be said if they were

- told-that the Hon. Member for Waterford had himself
encouraged spoliation, by raising contributions from his
countrymen—(Hear)—by taking twopence from the poor
man—(flear)—and a penny from the ragged man—
, (Hear, and a laugh)—and a halfpenny from the starving
man.—(Cries of hear, and order. )—He was not disposed
I to violate the order of the House, but he could not help
• saying that observations respecting spoliation came with a
very bid grace from those who had in this manner raised
contributions from the people.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL rose amid cries of order and ques-
tion. He said he wished to make one observation, not on
the subject of spoliation, but with respect to the personal
charge against himself. He neither was now, nor at any
time ever bad been, a party to the applications for con-
tributions which the Hon. Member referred to.—(Cries
of "Oh, oh," and question.)—He repeated, he had not !hen
a party to them ; and he would add, that he bad sacri-
ficed larger sums to his country than the Hon. and
Learned Member had ever gained by his profession.—
(Oh, oh ! question. )—lie had a right to speak, and he
would speak, in spite of this interruption.—(Great con-
fusien and cries of order.)
The SPEAKER said it was extremely desirable that
the Hon. Member and others should know to what extent
they were to be allowed to continue discussions of this de-
scription. When the character and conduct of the Hon.
Member was alluded to in a pointed manner, by other
Hon. Members, he was sure that the House would never
look with too much strictness of order on the course of
proceedings which might be adopted ; but it was, a: the
same time, right it should be known that observations
which would go to the extent of increasing the &bate or
throwing out new matter for discussion, could not be
al!owed.
Mr. O'CONNELL was obliged for this information, and
hoped, in the few words he had to say, that the Speaker,
if he was out of order, would comet him. He repeated,
that he h rd spent large sums in the service of his country,
and akimbo-led for it a profession wh.ch eve' y one connected
with the bar knew to be worth 7,0001. a year. For
twenty-five years he had laid out a sum of 2,0001. 4 year
—outb,of his own picket—to promote the necessary agita-
ti,n in Ireland—(A loud laugh)—in support of the rause
of Catholic emancipation, arid if his countrymen—his
poor but generous countrymen--were anxious to make him
a remuneration for his losses and his sacrifices, he thought
that every reflecting mind would feel that the art placed
them high among the nations which boast of civilization.
Sir R. PEEL did not rise to prolong the discussion,
but, on the contrary, to suggest to the House, whether it
would not be advisable to put an end to it, so that they
might proceed to the discussion of the impirtant question
fixed for that evening, with as slight a degree of excite-
ment as was consistent with the nature of the question.
Mr. NORTH then attempted to say a few words in
reply to the Member for Waterford, but the House per-
sisted in demanding the question, and the Hon. Member
gave way.
ADJOURNED DEBATE ON REFORM.

On the motion of Lord JOHN RUSSELL, the order
of the day for the adjourned debate on the Reform Bill
was then read, and the question of the second reading,
and the amendment being put,
Lord MAHON rose to express, in a few words, his
feelings with respect to that measure which his Majesty's
Government now proposed. He denied that the House of
Commons, so openly charged by that Government with
cot reption, were fairly open to the charge ; and if they
were so, and if the boroughs which they stigmatised as
unfit to retain the elective franchise, thin he called on
them, before they legislated, to prove that their accusa•
tions were well founded at the liar of that House. A
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston) had pretended so
discover the opinions of Mr. Canning to be favourable to
Reform, from an expression which he found in a speech of
his delivered on the silk trade ; but he (Lord Mahon)
thought it would be as reasonable to look for the opinions
of Mr. Canning with respect to Reform in the debate on
the silk trade, as it would be for any Member of that
House to find the opinions of the present Government on
the silk trade, in a speech on the question of Reform.—
(Hear, hear.)—He was convinced, notwithstanding all
that hail been said of the corruption and meanness of the
House of Commons, that the Reform Bill, if carried,
might increase the quantity of its talent, but he was sure
it would diminish its stock of honesty.—( Bear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Callington, in an able speech which
every one recollected, had pointed out the effect which
the Bill would be likely to have on the electors. He

would take leave to point out the effects be thought it
was likely to have on the elected. The Hon. Member for
Callington alluded to the useful [ower which Gatton and
Sarum exercised in counterpoising the effect of the snore
popular representation, and pointed out, very happily, the
blending of the several interests in forming a perfect whole.
Hon. Members, it was well known, got into that House
in a great variety of ways—some for counties, some for
cities, and some for close boroughs. The Hon. Baronet
who moved the amendment last night, the Member for
the county of Cornwall. held, in that capacity, a high
place in the House. He (Lord Mahon) was Member for
a inrobigh, with a comparatively small number of voters.
He could not pretend at any time to enter into competi-
tion with the Hon. Member for Cornwall, but it was the
snore necessary for him, as the representative of a borough,
to snake uncesving exertions to retain his position in the
eyes of the people, and to counteract by his industry the
disadvantages of his station. This difference in the na-
ture of the representation formed, therefore, as it were, a
continual stimulant to the honourable exertion in that

House, in the same manner as the differences ,of rank
were said to operate in the House of Peers—hut with this
great difference, that in one case the favours derived from
honourable exertion were confer•, d by the King, on the
other they were the gift of the people. These differences,

of the representative system afforded, moreover, a usefu

equipoise in the nyinagetnent of separate interest:J.

It was said, however, that the present state of the repre-
sentation was a monstrous anomaly in the Constitution,
which could nut be suffered longer to disgrace it. Why,
were there no anomalies in the Constitution except the
close boroughs ? It was a part of the Constitution that
the Kiag, whatever might be the extent of his insanity,
could never be pronounced a lunatic; that, whatever were
his years, he could never be a minor : and that though he
might, like James, endeavour to destroy the Constitution,
and usurp the powers of the other branches of the Legis-
lature, still he could do no wrong.—(llear.)—But speak-
ing of anomalies, what could be snore absurd than here-

ditary Legislators ? While other men, probably possessed
- - • • -

of the most transcendent talents, and who had laboured

through hal a life to make themselves acquainted with the
laws of their country, were debarred from exhibiting their
knowledge for the benefit of their fellow creatures, he,
from being born the son of a Peer, was destined to attain
the distinction of a Legislator, without labour or exer-
tion.—(Hear.)—Then what could he more monstrous
than the law of primog-eniture, which gives to the eldest
son, perhaps one of the most worthless brutes on earth, all
the lands and properties of his parents, to the exclusion of
his more deserving but younger relatives.—(Hear.)—
Those were all monstrous anomalies, as monstrous as any
said to he found in the representative system ; but yet
they were leading principles of the Consti ution. Refer-
ring to the arguments adduced in favour of the present sys-
tem, in consequence of the facilities it afforded for the ad-
mission of men of talent to that House, he believed he had 30
or 40 arguments of that kind at once within his glance. It
had, however, been urged against them, and against all who
sat in that House for close boroughs, that they were precluded
om voting on the question of Reform, and that when it
was agitaied they should get tip and walk out of that
House.—(Hear.)—P, however, all the Hon. Members

placed in that situation 11,a1 complied with such a der-n;nd.l

they could not at that moment have been discussing the
terms of a Bill introduced by the able expose', of the Noble
Lord the Member for Tavi,tock.—(Hear,
word with respect to intimidation and he had done. It
was a favourite expression of the supporters of the present
system, although much ridiculed by their opponents, that
bons
riust srtkaeeyisi:plitgei‘civhatettltbl
ot,
eh
ae ilei:a,qtltieeuovet, tiso.(rt:iuotitnjnioli(gooi
Reform,
ft uel,:p.riotilnis.iks:de edt‘fl,ti,wech,teaslt.lt..
whatever objet-
t;
Governmentalcid...e
with
o
conversed with a great number of persons on the subject,
and he really must say that he believed there was no
greater number of persons inclined to Reform at that mo-
ment than there had been twelve months before ; but,
although he was satisfied that there were not many more
persons convinced by the arguments of the Government
and their supporters, he was sure that a great many had
been terrified into advocating its necessity.—(Hear.)—
He believed that if the arguments brought ti,rward by the
• supporters of the Bill were divested of the appeals to the
determination of the people to have Reform, of the asser-
tions that they would and rritot have it, and that if it was
refused they were prepared to cut the throats of their
enemies to obtain it; if these arguments were taken away,
he believed that not fifty Members of that House would
hovsbefoeuvteird,towvho it v
vote for ittade
.—(llear, hear.)—He would ask,
the people clamorous for Re-
form ? The King's Ministers. Who it was had by their
agitation and their complaints, and their promises, and
their representations, brought the House to that melan-
choly condition, that it could neither pause with safety
nor proceed without ruin?—(Hear, hear.)—lf his Ma
jesty's Ministers had used but half the power and industry
to tranquillize, that they have exerted to bewilder and

to raislead, they would not at that moment have bed
placed in such a painful and dangerous situation.--I
SirJOHN SHELLEY was the Membearfor a borough'
his constituents were from eight hundred to one thousand
and he was bouad to state, at the outset, that the majors'were favourable to Reform. This it was his duty to et;
and he should add, that at a meeting hell lately on that 9.
sect, he waiinearly the only person who raised a voice ago:
the Bill. Having honestly and fairly. admitted this, he
1.1
at liberty to state it as his own opinion that the
ra"stuteil
was unjust, fallacious, and revolutionary. Ile reg
they
much that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
refused the members to the larg sa
e towns, for to that 1
owed much of what had taken place. It had heenbo,
that the Bill was a boon to the landed interest. If
at all, it was a boon to the manufacturing interest.
declare
• Mr. CAVENDISH niumt most conscientiously
.ea
that the whole of the measure which had been introut
by his Majesty's Government had his unqualified suPP°trhe
—(Hear, hear ) As to the petition, however, "3 re.
University of Cambridge, which had that night been t'ers
sented, although there were undoubtedly many AleTnete
of the Senate who were adverse to the Bill, he also 'here
from communications which he had received, that tboje
were many who were so far from being hostile to the sv, the
measure, that they did not object to the disfranchising cu'aii,
boroughs, although they thought that the propose,' q
er,„
fication of voters was too low. No one was n'ece :tr'
Bible than himself, that in many repeets this on'ahaty
was fortunate beyond the ordinary lot of nations; j
he was quite at a loss to see how that could defend
tite existing borough system. That there were g or
evils arising from that system no one could doubt! to
that it was the duty of the Legislature to endeav"ut.
remedy theno—(Heer, hear, hear.) There way one con'e
sideration of paramount importance. Without the t°e,a
tidence of the country it was certain that no GovecrigLat
could go on. There could be no stability unless the ictoerat
majority of the people supported the Government•
merly-, no one within or without those wells dared to r
„ the
that that House was not the genuine representative of
people. But was that the case at present? So don gat
the House of Commons was constituted as it was at ")-.
011'
moment, so long would the dissatisfaction of the P
with it continue to increase. That dissatiefaction
be smothered for a moment, but whenever any eirce,u,•th
stance occurred to cull it forth, it would burst ont" t
redoubled vielence.—(ear.) As for those who sai"
teis measure was only a;stepping-stone for further ennc,"h'e
son, he could not see any weight in their argument!' the
tendency of which was, in fact, to throw obstacles rn
la,
wiy of all improvement. He was surprised at the cll.
mour of revolution which had been raised against the Plae
It was his decided conviction, that if revolution was tc-0
aperehended in this country, it was not fiem this Bt:
but from the continuance of a system which woo cots)
pletely at variance with the general interests.--(ll°rhe
Nor could he indulge the melancholy foreboding that cis,
Bill was calculated to promote the downfall of the ak,
tocracy. On the contrary, he believed, that the Acisate, •
cracy would be in no way endangered by it. It wad trek
that it woula deprive the Aristocracy of a portion ofta 4
immediate power; hut it would induce them to rely' nae
on their boroughs, but on that which always ought t"
their legitimate influence.—(Hear.)
Mr. ORMSBY GORE said that an lion. Gentlel
who had last night addressed .the House in favour of
Bill, in a strain 01 beautiful eloquence, had appeaied
galaxy of talent in the tomb, in confirmation of his oP-s,
nions. In reply, he (Mr. Gore) would call from the
deep one of the greatest spirits of past times—one of,t:a
greatest ind most constitutional writers that had ever hoe
—Sir William Blackstone—the reforming Sir
Blackstone—in support of his objections to the Bill. S(iet. -
that great authority could not speak for himtelfnt,
f
laugh)—he (Mr. Gore) would quote his words. 1.313 c
stone, in speaking of the qualifications of electors °r
,
Knights of the Shire, said, that by the ancient statuthee
" they must have estates in lands or tenements within tid
county represented ; that these estates must be freehc%l
that is an term of life at least ; because beneficial leas`i •
for long terms of years were not in use at the making
these statutes, and copyholders were then little better
villeins, absolutely dependent upon their lords." Srf
were the observations of Sir William Blackstone, and the
were applicable to that part of the measure under OP-1,1 e
deration which introduced copyholders as electors fartot
representatives of counties, What would Sir Wi!,9
Blackstone say, if he could rise from his grave, a"" ,
that it was proposed to reduce the number of Metnben:e
the House of Commons by sixty-three ? What tem.'. le
say, if he saw that all the charters in the land, that all/et
corporations whose rights were derived from their 11;,
cestors, were to be completely destroyed ? The Him. Gen'
Herten here read the preamble of the Act of Retry V'et,
which forty shillings was fixed as the lowest freehold V,
lification for a voter, to show that the object was to "I;
tinguish between those who were competent to god's
of the competence of a candidate, and those who tvefetj.„
so. The partiality of tee proposed measure had been,:
well exposed last night by the Hon. and Leatned Meow;
for Weymouth, and by the Hon. Member for Cur
Castle, that he would merely make one or two observip.
tions upon it. They had been told that the right of Pt
turning representatives was to be regulate-I by the ana".ur;
of the population. If so, how was it that a most
portant district of the country, containing 310,000 mole
bitants, was to send to Path anent only exactly the 'a
pod
number of representatives as a county containing t
101,000 inhabitants ? The county of Wilts was to '4e.,
twenty-five Members to Parliament, while the whole Pcn-ie
emality of Wales was to send the same number. as
county of Glamorgan, containing 30,135 inhabitants,;.
,;(1
to send one Member, while the county of Northumbeil3o,
containing 61,662 inhabitants, was to send four Heratbees. Was that impartiality?—(Hear, hear. ).--Wa,
apportioning the representatives to the poulation? eas
there must be a new eastern—if the House of Conin%
must be rennidelled—thr Heaven's sake let strict intPitre
tiality be observed. He looked upon the present a' t
ye
worst possible time at which such a prop o.
osition could h3a
been made; a time when the spirit of innovation ry
stalking through Europe, laying its iron grasp upon sty
state. It he were again to call spirits from the v'tojj
deep, he trona] summon the great Burke, who had v"raer
Governments of the ruin which too frequently lurked L"'
of
pretended Reform ; he would refer to the opiiii°fid
Bacon Omnis srebita inuitutatio eat periculosa i_itfta
atlptoic,uraegphh,eaniitsniboie,n(.f;oEr
Ht(hieit ILmaert,tsihried, yetara. it is not without a le'
we believe
) its
few words;
favour of the Bill.
taut,
Mr. WARD said, that knowing that a large pr°P.bica
of his constituents were of a different opinion from , 00.5
with respect to the present measure, he should be 3 aid
nmootssttautrfair
em
that ly
fact.totav It tl
was
Majesty's
i s
afact,h'o Government
however, which
if ',leered
it the more incumbent upon him not to abanil
abandon Pio°'
01.
tion Of his constituents who agreed with him in op'';„at
That eery night circurnstancee had prevented hizahooP,
presenting a petition, signed by six hundred me" the
bankers, and others, of time City of London, against
fir
Bill which bad been introduced by the Noble 3-leu'i",-prr
Tavistock ; and he therefore felt compelled to tale tm`itetie
sent opportunity of expressing the sentiments of tuc 'Oll
tioners. They were indep ndent lads ideals—tacit rlge
qu.litied to judge upon the tobj, ct, having much athether
on its decision. It interetted them deeply to know vv 101
it was probable that the pecuniary obligations of the cl taelC
would be implicated, or the tenure by which they hel'flool
property considered sacred by a new Parliament lota' %Olt
from any experience, but the elements connect'. tie/
which were down to that very moment unaseeititin'eeett
(Hear.) It had been his good fertune to hear the 10/110,
of the gallant Admiral, the Member for Nottinglon'.'s aoti
in such a.ffectieg terms, had stated that. be felt it Inot AC'
to vote in a manner which he was aware waso hie ej
cordant with the opinions of his constituents. ttert let;
the. House tvould eive him (Mr. Ward) equal cre:dol
not being indifferent to the feelings and w]shes e'eetet'f'
his constituents or the people at large. Under vga-,, ea,
intimidation, he would do his duty. He w`',l,,,iririg,
ercise his own judgment for the purpose of endea—,
to ascertain if there were any ground for sriPP"'inbay the
the people would enjoy a larger share of real liberty' bed,
proposed measure, than up to time present period place?
thank God ! existed in this country. In the fiott which
he would inquire wh conetitutcd the improveineut,
the Bill was to effect in the character of that H4lo;oghvt
his earlier (Lye lie was acquainted with three boalote -
sending six Members to that House. They were re pre'
boroughs too. And who were the persons whofierce"
seated thoss boroughs ? Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, .01* 50,1:
val, Mr. Canning, the present Noble Secretaryet t'—
for Foreign Affairs, and the Noble Duke lately 000
bead of his Majesty's Government. Could hettet'aPj hart'
have been sent to Parliament ? When first he "
he had "'cob'
self the honour of a seat in the House,
eyes on both sides to see whom be might Planing.', the
Bence. On the Ministerial side lie saw Mr: Can ,00lve
Right Hon. Baronet, late Secrete!), of State for I", r close
Members ro Lit
Department, and Mr. Hutkisson,—all Menw ore° I
boroughs. On the Opposition tide lie saw the,
Lre4reer..
Lord (2h .ncellor, Mr. Tierney, and the Hove anatlo,
Member for Knaresborough,—all Members for ht,pe to
roughs. He must be a sanguine man who woU'e.,r qUop
obtain fit the service of the public indiviiluals.,beatr".)
lifted than those he had mentioned.—(Hear, tr,00,0:11)01
the other hand—and he begged to assure the Ity e
Baronet, time Member for Westrnineea, that b,

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