The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-01 00:00:00

receive

he peti-

f peti-
among
radford,

Member
lis, Mr.
ted ; he

derg one
t he had
aged at
ugh the,
ted from

I again.
i millers
,merican

ity Got-

ould not
iplaining
tiered it
n in the
sale of
e people.
ramittals

)U which
ised that
appealed
such de•
rted the-
been an-

!forward

•ue, that
luced by
recollect,
r this na-

!ncement

the 'ilea-
ernment,
was not
o the old
g rid of
he Noble
I eontroul
—(Hear.)
ment had
gulations,
disorders
ie thought
e sorry to

tle Lord,
regularity
; but he
had truly
t, in some
ler of per-
:wing that
ake large
)ened that
repelled to
) practices
1. covering
f the irre-
from his
men much
y material
he be-
he labour-
,eer• houses
assembling

wages at
n of them

se persons
3ill, in the
and influ-
)ne of the
kept open
is the con-
keepers of
ed to keep
ed to shut
a reminded
Kira of his
at manner
ahlic-house
these beer-
keep open
that a sub-
n, all these
they were
, hear.)

lad been to
, who were
e beer than
uld not be
they would
rested per-
.r than that
who bad
attention of

entially not
the mrnaller
country, it
L 4 sure that
ct to beer-
continued,
cc of ,those
coal of the

la to reject
brought in
considered
ie operation
tirat op-

would not
ifford relief
the poorer
•used,. poli_
appreciate
ie most ka-
)ected it to
ertain evil
had beta

able to see the possibility of removing the re-
straints; which existed in the sale of beer by a gradual
withdrawal of those restraints; lie should have pre•
ferred adopting that course on bringing forward the
Bill, the effect of which was now complained of.
The inconveniences which hail arisen from the passing
of the Bill into a law had certainly gone far be-
yond the extent which lie had anticipated, accord-
ing to the information which he was in possession of,
furnished to him by the ablest and most impartial persons.
It was oF the utmost importance, therefore, for his
Majesty's Government to institute at least some very
diligent enquiry into the operations of the Bill. He believed
the inconveniences prevailed to the greatest extent, and,
indeed, princip illy in the agricultural districts.—(No, no.)
This was according to the information whieh he received.
He understood Government had already made general
inquiries on the subject, and if that were so, it would
be better for the House to be put in possession of
all the facts that had come to the knowledge
of Government before Parliament proceettgl to legis-
late again on the business. Viewing it in every light
he had heard nothing yet which made him entertain the
most remote idea that it would be necessary to re-
turn to the state of the law in which it was
before the passing of this Bill. Measures might be adopted
for correcting the abuses, without depriving the poor
of the advantages arising from the Bill.
Lord STANLEY could not agree with the statement
that the evils arising from the Bill prevailed principally in
the agricultural districts. He believed the Secretary of State
received from the county of Lancaster one universal reply to
all his enquiries throughout that part of the kingdom, and
which was that the effects of the Bill were most mis-
chievous. His Lordship hoped Government would be
able to bring forward some measure for correcting those
mischiefs.

Mr. WARBURTON deprecated the idea of proceeding
hastily to pass further measures on this subject. He believed
there was one cluise in the Bill which required that those
who took out a license to sell beer must have a place
in which to consume it—this entitled them to have sol-
diers quartered upon them, and the idea of that prevented
respectable shopkeepers selling the beer which otherwise
they would do, and left it to persona of a very low class
to engage in the sale of the beer. If this clause were re-
moved, more orderly persons would begin to sell it, sad
more orderly conduct be the consequence.
Mr. PAGET regretted to hear-that it was the intention
of his Majesty's Government to interfere in bringing for-
ward any new measure for the purpose of increasing the
authority of either magistrates or police with those
who sold beer. In his opinion, all the inconvenience
that had been complained of arose, not from the Bill going
too far, but not going far enough. He should propose the
removal of all restrictions whatever.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought that the proposition of
the Hon. Member who had just sat down, were it to be
adopted, would produce incalculable evils. He (Sir
Matthew) had opposed the Bill from the first; but
on this occasion he certainly thought the wisest plan
would he to give a little more time for exreriencing the
operation of the Bill. Any proposition of amendment to
the Bill might be well worthy of attention.
An HON.
Ind
considered the Bill had effected this
benefit, it INd enabled the poor to obtain an article at
a cheaper price than before, and also raised the price of
barley, thereby doing a service to the op icultural interest.
.Sir CHARLES BURRELL said, in his opinion, the
Bill had done incalcul isle damage to the country. One
great object in passing the Bill was an increase of revenue,
but all increase of revenue that tended to the dt moraliza-
tion of the public must be an abomination in the sight of
any Government.

Mr. PORTMAN regarded it as inexpedient to attempt
to amend the Bill, after only one year's trial. It ought,
at any rate, to have another year's trial. He was, how-
ever, firmly persuaded that there was but one remedy
fin•. all the evils that had now been alluded to,
complained of by the poor on one hand, and the Clergy on
the other—that remedy was the repeal of the malt tax.
(Ghee's.) He hoped that in the course of next year
his Majesty's present Government would introduce a
measure for the purpose of repealing that obnoxious tax.
Mr. SADLER, in bjnging up the petition, denied
that he had ever been opposed to the remission of any
tax which was in any way calculated to benefit the poor.
What was the operation of the Bill ? He speke not on
conjecture, but from certain knowledge. 'I he operation
of the Bill was to make not merely the father of a
f imily but the female sex, the wife and children, tipplers.
He knew that every person who was at all conversant
with the state of society would agree with him in that
opinion. His proposition for the relief of the poor would
be, and was, very different. He proposed to remit the tax
on malt entirely. He had contemplated too, such a project
that the lower and lowest classes should have the opportu-
nity of brewing their own drink, as free from tax as
from adulteration. It was a question which involved the
well-being, the morals, the happiness of the people of this
country; and he would, impressed with that conviction,
take leave, upon an early opportunity, to, press on the
considelation of the House no new ideas or new opi-
nions of his own, hut those which he had previously
advanced on the question ; and he would take the sense
of the House on the remission of the tax, as it re-
garded the lower class, so as to put a stop most
effectually to that vicious practise of tippling, which,
under the present system, might be carried on in any num-
ber of houses, which, for a trifling consideration, chose
to license themselves. •
Mr. HUNT gave the Hon. Member (Mr. Sad-
ler) credit for his good intentions. He would ask
him, however, how could the poor of the Metropolis,
with their scanty means, furnish the necessary implements
for brewing their own beer? The good intentions of the
Hon. Member were like some of his other Utopian notions,
and if his plans were carried into execution, instead
of benefiting the poor, they would be driven back to the
gin-shop, to drink t•:.at intoxicating blue-ruin, instead of
good wholesome beer.
Sir CHARLES BURRELL was sorry to prolong
the discussion, but as truth was the only object
in that Ilouse, I e would state a fact of which
be had been assured by his own steward, that an old wo-
man of his acquaintanee—(A laugh)— had brewed excel-
lent beer from an old teakettle.—(Loud acd general
laughter.) The petition was ordered to be printed.
The LORD ADVOCATE then rose and said he would
to-morrow move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the
state of the representation in Scotland.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. DAWSON presented a petition from Sir A.
King for compensation for loss of his office.
Lord ALTHORP said that as a very strong complaint
by the Hon. 13 tronet had been submitted to him, he had
sanctioned the bringing of his case before the House.
SALARIES OF PUBLIC OFFICERS.

Mr. Alderman WOOD rose for the purpose of bringing
the subject of the salaries and emoluments of public
officers before the House. He said that he expected to be
supported in the proposition he intended to submit, not
only by his Majesty's present Ministers, but by the late
servants of the Crown—be would not call them ex• Min-
isters, as that word was not likely to be a favourite at the
present moment.—(Laughter.) He hoped that Ministers
would themselves assent to the appointment of a Com-
mittee to inquire, and he was sure that that was the best
plan upon which they could proceed. In 1797, the while
charge of the civil department for 75 offices was only
1,300,000/. ; and although it might possibly be urged,
that the-duties since that date bad increased, yet he did not
expect to hear it contended that they had increased in pro-
p irtion to the augmentation of salary. In 1815, the
charge was 3,200,000/. ; but at this moment it was
2,900,000/., the present Ministers having made reductions
to the extent of about 300,000/. He had not asked any-
body to second the motion with which he should conclude,
and he hoped he should find a seconder in the First Lord
of the Admiralty, who, for the sake of mere consistency,
ought to support him. That Right Hon. Baronet, on the
12th February, 1830, bad proposed a similar resolution,
which after referring to the 37th Geo. 111., and to the
subsequent return to cash-payments, went on to declare,
that it was " expedient to the relief of the present ex-
cessive load of taxation, that all augmentations consequent
upon the Bank Restriction should be reduced, and every
possible reduction adopted that could be made without .a
violation of existing engagements, and without detriment
to the public service." That motion was, however, sub-
sequently withdrawn, and an am ndment by the Se-
cretary for the Treasury substituted, which amendment
did not fall much short of the original proposition. The ob-
ject of this amendment was to let down the Ministers easily,
as they could not resist the arguments in favour of some le-
dustions. He had always supported the present Nlinisteis
in their lawful and useful acts—(A laugh)—and he would
continue to give them such support. He trusted the
House.would see the necessity of bringing back the salaries
to *tire scale of
1797. In that year the whole amount of
the
salaries paid in the public offices under the Crown was
1,374,5001., and the number of persons employed wa,
about sixteen thousand. In 1815, the amount paid was
3,200,5001., exceeding the salaries of 1797 by nearly two
millions, which was a difference greatly disproportioned
to. the increase of persons employed. At the same time,
be did not think that the-persons receiving from 100/. to
2601. ' a• year were overpaid. It was of the higher salaties
he complained.--(Heal.) A.
ccording to the returns then
before him, the salaries paid in 1830 to 980 persons
=Quilted to 2,900,0001., giving an average of 2,0001. 1,

year ; whereas the salaries of those persons who did the
work averaged no more than 4001. —(Hear.) There were
a number of persons receiving I,boo/. and 2,0001. a year
i❑ offices, respecting the business of which they knew
nothing.—(Hear.) Some of those persons held two or
three offices. He could paint them out; but, as be did
not wish to hurt the feelings ofindividuals, he would merely
refer Hon. Gentlemen to papers before the House, from
which they would find many such cases. He made the
present motion in compliance with the injunction of
a numerously attended public meeting of his constitu-
ele:s; and when he told the House that he had been,
a few hours before, called upon to sign two hundred war-
rants of distress against poor people, in one small district,
woo were unable to pay their taxes, the House would re-
cognise the necessity of diminishing, as much as possihle,
taxation which pressed with so much severity. As it
was not in their power to reduce the debt, they were the
more called upon to make reductions of other parts of the
nationel burdens.—( Hear.) In that branch of the ex-
penditure which was the subject of his motion, a reduc-
tion was quite practicable, to the enormous amount of one
million pounds—(Hear)—and although be did not
mean to propose any specific measure, yet he would say,
that if the House would grant him a Committee, lie would
point out the means of effecting that reduction, without
detriment to the public business.—(Hear.) He was pre-
pared to show, from the contracts for the supplying of
Greenwich Hospital, and other larger establishments,
with provisions, that the necessaries of life, of almost every
kind, were rather cheaper (as we understood him) at
present tl an they were in 1797. He concluded by
moving the fdlowing resolution :—" That, with a vies•
to relieve the country from a part of its burdens, the ex-

penditure of the public offices, and, regard being had to
the alterations in the value of money, tire salaries of the
public officers, should ha reduced to the scale of 1797."
Lord ALTHORP agreed with the Worthy Alderman
opposite, that regard ought to he had, in the payment of
the public servants, to the alterations in the value of money
—(Hear)—and that reductions ought to be made as ex-
tensively as was compatible with the effective discharge
of the public business.—(Hear.) He not only concurred
in that opinion, but he would assure the Worthy Alder-
man that the Government had been all along acting upon
it.—(Hear.) One of their first measure-a was to refer
their own salaries to a Committee of that House; and,
according to-the recommendation given by that Committee
in their report to the Hoes a a considerable reduction of
those salaries was immediately carried into effect.—
(Hear.) Having done that with the intervention of the
House, the Ministers thought it their duty to take upon
themselves the revision of the salaries paid is public
officers employed under the Government, and to do so
without calling for a Committee of the House, as they
considered the inquiry peculiarly their (the Ministers')
duty.—(Hear.) They therefore had given instructions to.
the principal persons employed in the various offices to
furnish explanations of every particular respecting the
quantity and kind of labour, the hours of attendance,
and the salaries of all the persons in those office',
so that the Government might have data whereupon
to proceed in their ra duction. They had since dimi-
nished the number and reduced the salaries of the Com-
missioners of Customs, and they would next proceed to do
the same by the Commissioners of Excise.—(Hear, hear.)
They would in the mean time go on with their inquiries,
and carry the reduction as far as due regard to the public
business would permit.—(Hear, her:r.) He was sure
that the House woo4l say that that was the proper course,
and that the Administration ought not to deter mine at
once, without consideration and without regard to any
increase of the public business, to go back to the salaries
of 1797 —( Hear, hear.) If the House agreed to the
resolution proposed by the worthy Alderman, they would
thereby express an opinion that the Government had not
done its duty in respect to the reduction of the expendi-
ture in that department. He hoped that the House would
not vote a resolution passing that censure upon the Mi •
nisters. He agreed with the worthy Alderman, as to the
principle of the resolution, he did not wish to oppose
it expressly, and the course he should take would there-
fore Ire to move the previous question.
Mr. HUNT seconded the motion of the Hon. Member
for London. He was surprise 4 at the altered tone of the
Noble Lord opposite, and at the manner in which the re-
solution hail been met by him—(Hear, bear, from the
Opposition.) When he compared the conduct of the pre-
sent Ministers since they c one into office, with the course
which they followed whilst they sat upon the Opposition
benches, he was convinced of the truth of what he had
often heard, that gentlemen, in changing sides in that
House, changed their opinions and principles.--(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh !") He did not
mean any tiring personal, for he supposed that it was a mis-
fortune attached to the other side of the House.—(A
laugh.) Now, what was the proposition which the Noble
Lord called on the House to reject ? To return to the sa-
laries of 1797, whereas the worthy Alderman had proved
from authentic documents that the necessaries of life were
lower, whilat the salaries of public officers were all risen
—(Great laughter)—aye, a hilst the salaries were risen.—
(Renewed laughter ; some Members near whispered
" Raised.") Well, then, they were raised.—(Hear.) He
was much obliged to the other side of the House for setting
him right.—(Hear, and a laugh.) But he assured them
that he did not stand up there with any factious inten-
tions.—(Hear, hear.) He stood there to do his duty to
the people, especially to that portion of which he was the
representative. Whenever he spoke of the people, Hon.
Gentlemen opposite were accustomed to laugh—(Cries
of " No, no," and laughter.) When the Noble Lord who
introduced the Reform Bill spoke of the people, the same
gentlemen invariably cheered who always gave a great
laugh when he (Mr. Hunt) spoke of the people.—("No,".
and laughter.) The reason was, that the people whom
the Noble Lord meant were those who occupied houses
worth ten pounds a year—(" Oh, oh,")--whereas the
people of whom he (Mr. Hunt) spoke were those men
who laboured for their daily bread. The Worthy Alder-
man had told the House, that if they gave him a Com-
mittee Ise would show them how a million a year could be
saved to the country : and would the House refuse him
that opportunity, when they knew that there were nu-
merous families in some parts of the country having no
more than twopence-halfpenny a day for their support ?
Gentlemen had attributed the late disturbances to the
Beer Bill, and to other causes which had no connection
with them. The fact was, that the people were driven to
the acts of outrage by the extreme distress under which
they were suffering. Under such circumstances, would
the Noble Lord let it go forth to the country, that although
the i\linisters would give the people this great Reform
13:11, they would not diminish their own salaries.—(Vehe-
ment cries of hear, hear.) It was of no use for them to go
about cutting off the small salaries of the working clerks,
leaving the high salaries untouched. They might also
pass their Reform Bill ; but it would be vain for them to
look to that Bill for the relief of the peop'e.—(Hear, hear.)
He knew, indeed, that a majority of the present Members
had been returned to the House to carry that Bill, in con-
sequence of the excitement which they had raised.—(Near.)
But let them look to the condition in which they placed
the country.—(Hear, bear.) He hoped the cuckoo cry,
that Ire was au enemy to Reform, would not be raised
against him for what he was going to say. It was not a
Reform Bill—it was not the mere natne of liberty that
could relieve distress.--(Hear.) If the House did not, by
their vote on that motion, give the people an earnest that
they wished to relieve their distress, the Reformßill would
g ye no sathf iction.—(Hear, hear.) It was true that ti •
Noble Lord who introduced the Bill said that it would
give
erZhes had n
immediate
o t pretendedrelie relief.
thattrueltwasit
that
have
wouldtlre Ministers
ni:teers
tle b
atenrseffbeacdt;prlemutntdehedl:n. Press
ys,anedthe out-scouts of the Minis-
he said the Press and the
out-scouts of the Ministers deluded the people.—(lm-
mense cheering from both sides.) The people had been
made to expect from the Reform Bill
what he (Mr.
Hunt) knew it could not realiae.—(Cheers.) Whenever
his servants went into the shops in the neighbourhood.—
(A laugh.). He would not be put flown by a laugh. 'He
was only stating what he knew to be facts.—(Hear, e ar )
However gentlemen might laugh, he had servants.._
."
(Hear.) It was true, he lived by trade, and he was not
the least ashamed of that.—(Hear.) There were many
Members of that House—there were many Noblemen eveii
in the other House, who owed their wealth and rank to
trade, and he believed that their-coats did not sit the less
smoothly on their backs, or their coronets less conveniently
upon their heads on that account.—(Cheers.) When his
servants, he repeated, go into the shops, they hear nothing
talked of but all the good the Reform Bill ia to do. Some
person, hiring a servant, was desirous to engage her for 1,
as the
oßnefotrimr,
year, on account of the excellent character given front her
shßieiioti•luttlosv
°boner
last service. But the girl said that nothing could induce
bound to service for a yeaanrd,
elusion of. laughterpasstb e isen :Inv'. eheee.i which followed months,fAo lsltend 1%1-lee Lost
motiontlre
beforecon .
stbhenuHldonuseet,
be
ee
setw oausildde awssiuthreoute Nobletha
division
Lord that
ion;forif it
the
worthy Alderman did not press it be would, in order that it
might be known to the country who were the per-
sons. that refused to have the public burthens diminished,
and that too at a time when the Government had increased
the army and navy, and had raised troops of yeomanry
byto
put clown the people, who were driven to disturbances
11
wretchedness and want. knew that the Reform
must pass. He knew that they must have Reform or Re-

solution ; although he did not think that under the Re-
form Bill there would ever be a House of Commons more
Truly chosen by the will of the people than the present.—
( Hear, hear.) "But you have raised," said he, " such a
flame in the country that the people will not he satisfied
without Reform.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) You
must give Reform, and you must go on and do something
for the people—l mean that part of the people who are
not included in the Bill." He conclud, dby appealing nal
to the Ministers but to the House, and caling upon all
gentlemen who valued the character of the House and the
good of the country to come forward and teach the Go•
cernment that they must not trifle with the country.
Mr. SIBTHORPE had thought that the Hon. Member
Ibr Preston was a Reformer, and he was gratified by hear-
ing him say that the people were deluded about the pre-
sent Bill. For his part, lie (Mr. Sibthorpe) had ever
-bought so.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member for Preston
also stated-that there never would be a House of Commons
more congenial with the people—(" No, no," from Mr.
Hunt)—or a House more truly representing the people than
he present.—(" No.") He had great satisfaction at hearing
what fell from the Worthy Al Lerman, the Member for
London. He would supeort the motion.
Mr. HUNT rose to explain. What he had said was,
that when they had obtained a Reformed House of Cotil-
lions, it would not be one more truly chos,n by the people
than that which at present sat.
Mr. HUME said, that the Hon. Member for Preston
had no authority for asserting that his Majesty's Ministers
had not set, in their own persons and in their own offices,
the example of reduction. It was well known to the
House, and, he trusted, to the country at large, that he
had never ceased to be an advocate for every species of
reduction, but he was not so unreasonable as to expect
that t very necessary diminution of the public expenditure
could be effected all at once.—(Cheers from the Ministerial
side). The Hon. Member for Preston was certainly in
error ; hut, if so, he must be allowed to say, that that
Hon. Member had te•n putting himself wrong. The
King's Government had been but a short time in office,
and they had given in that time every pledge which, in so
-host a period, could be expected from them ; and they
had even gone further, for they had given every practical
proof that could be required of them, that these profes-
sions were uttered and those pledges given in a spirit of
the most perfect sincerity. Ministers slid they would set
an example, and they bad done so. The Hon. Member
then referred to the report of the Finance Committee, and
; &Thu ed himself unable to conceive how any Hon. Member,
with that before him, could for a single moment hesitate
to admit that Government bad set the example of retrench-
ment, not only by their declarations but by their conduct.
Of those immediately in the councils of the Crown,
they had made every reasonable reduction of their own
accord, with the single exception of the Mastership of the
Mint; for that they required a particular Act of Par-
liament, and the Act had accordingly been introduced ;
he would gladly learn what more was to be required of
them. It bad been said that the people of England were
deluded. That was an assertion which be b-gged utterly
to deny. Above all things he would deny, that they had
been, or could be deluded upon the question of Reform.
If ever there vas one question more than another upon
which they were particularly free from delusion, it was
the question of Reform ; and, as to the idle story about
the servant fleas he wondered how the Hon. 'Member
could thing of introducing it ; and he was sure that no
man in the country—not the most ignorant or illiterate—
would pay the slightest attention to it. How could she
know anything about the matter? But the argument
sought to be derived from this was, that those who voted
for reforming candidates expected some immediate result
from it, that would put an end to all the evils of our pre-
sent system of society and Government. So far from such
opinions being prevalent out of doors, he was sure that
those Hon. Members who were best acquainted with tire
sentiments of the people at large, would bear him out in
the statement, that there was not a man who voted for
Reform, who did not regard it as the means of obtaining
something better ; of accomplishing ulterior objects, from
which alone the country could derive relief—and, he hoped,
prosperity. They looked upon Reform—not as being, in
itself a diminution of expenses—but as a means of effecting
objects. They looked upon Reform as the instrument by which
they were to obtain a good, a cheap, and an efficient Go-
vernment. What, then, did the Hon. Member for Pres-
ton mean when he complained that everything he desired
was not effected immediately ? The answer to that
was extremely simple and obvious ; it could not be done
immediately—it was a matter of time. The ground he
took was this—let the measure of Reform 1)e once carried,
rand then be would support every rational measure pro-
motive of economy and retrenchment. But really he
could consent to nothing which interfered or appeared to

interfere in the remotest degree with that measure—a
measure which he wondered how any one could be brought

to deny was one of extensive and salutary Reform. How
could it be looked upon otherwise than a measure of
13,fortn, when it went to exclude from that House as

many as one hundred and fifty nominees ? It really
did surprise him that the Hon. Member for Preston,
who had been day after day, and year after year,
calling out for Reform—it really did surprise him that that
Hun. Member, above all men, should say that the present
House of Commons adequately represented the people of
England, or that that House was then as good as any that
they had a prospect of ever getting. He (Mr. Hume)
earnestly hoped that the Hon. Member would he deceived
in the expectation which he entertained—he hoped that
the next Parliament would not only better represent the
people than any preceding Parliament, but that it would
be the instrument of effecting more good for the nation at
large, more of economy, and improved Government than
any Parliament that had gone before. Once more he
would repeat, that it was the duty of every man who
wished well to the country to remove obstacles from
rather than to raise them in the way of the great measure
with which the attention of Parliament was then chiefly
occupied. The Hon. Member for Preston had not done
justice to his Majesty's Ministers. Let the How Only
look to what they had done. In 1780 the Secretary of
the Treasury had a salary of 4,0001. a year; during the
greater part of the war he had a salary of 5,000/. a year.
The late Government certaio'y reduced the emoluments of
that office to 3,000/. per annum. The Finance Committee
recommended that the salary be reduced to 2,5001., and
the present Government had reduced it accordingly._
Another example was to be found in the office of the
Secretary of State for the Home Department. That
was at one time as high as 8,1401., it was then reduced
to 6,0001. The Committee recommended that it should be
lowered to 5,0001., and the present Government adopted
that recommendation. There was next the Colonial Se-
cretat v ; he had 6,0001 a-year, and the Committee having
advised that a sum of 1,000!. be taken off that salary, it
was taken cif. The President of the Council had r salary
in the year 1797 of 2,840/. ; it now stood stood at 2,000/,
The Lord Privy Seal in 1780 received emoluments
amounting to 4,0001., he now had but 2,0001. They had
then, as the House and the country must see, begun by
reducing their min emoluments, and thus had
.given the
fairest pledge that those reductions would, in principle, be
carried to the subordinate departments of the public set vit e
Those were the views which he took of this subjt ct ; but
he would nevertheless divide with hirellon. Friend, if the
matter were pressed to a division..—(Great laughter.) He
certainly should do so, with great reluctance.
Mr. HUNT repeated his explanation as given above.
Mr. EWART delended his Hon. Friends near him
from the charges brought against them by the Hon.
Member for Preston. They did not cheer the mention
of the people because it came from the Noble Lord, nor.
did they laugh at that word on account of its coming
from the Hon. Member opposite. In both cases they
were influenced solely by the manner in which each
speaker adverted to the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL decidedly objected to being go-
verned by the stria t rule of the amount of salaries paid in
1797. Though of the salaries of that period some were
below, there were others above, the present scale of pay-
ment The Hon. and Learned Member then entered into
a statement of the reductions which Ministers had affected,
and put it to the House to say whether such conduct was
refusing to listen to the cry of distress? It was alleged
that the people had been deluded upon the important ques-
tions of Reform and public distress. The people could not
be deluded : the time had arrived when they could dis
tinguish between common sense and nonsense--between
professions of sympathy and real attempts to afford them
relief—between real and -mock Reformersbetween men
who would tell them that the addition of 500,000 voters
to the constituency of the kingdom was no boon, and that
the exclusion from that House of 150 Members nominated
• by individuals was no Reform.
Mr. SADLER said that Ministers ought rather to
assist than obstruct the efforts of the House to effect the
reductions for which the necessities of the country called.
However, be the reductions made what they might, be
hoped that nothing would be done with the subordinate
situations which did not, in principle, extend to the su-
perior offices.
Mr. MABERLY was strongly opposed to the scale of,
1797. There were many salaries of that period too high,
while, on the other hand, there were some of them too
low ;
,and if Ministers were to adopt the rule prescribed
to them by the Worthy Alderman, they would be exposed
to an infinite deal of trouble, and, in the end, come to
I no right conclusion after all. The Hon. Gentleman then
entered into a warm defence of the conduct of his Ma-

jesty's Government on the subject pf reduction, defending
'iis Hon. Friends near him from the imputation of having
changed their opinions.
Mr. DAWSON declared his intention of voting against
the motion of the Worthy Alderman, but professed his
inability to comprehend how the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex could make the speech be had made, and yet give
:,i8 support to the motion. Much had been said of what
Government had done in the was' of reduction ; but in
truth very little remained for them to do, for other Go-
vernments had left but a scanty harvest to their siale.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then entered into a statement
•1 the reductions which had been effected since 1821 in
73 different departments. In 1821 there were 26,243
diminution of salaries amount
5 persons (so the Right
in those 73 departments, with salaries amounting to
:1,694,0001. Between that period and 1829 the numbers were
reduced to 22,070 persons, and the salaries to 3,091,0001. ;
h
goons
t.o i3,0c11.
tGI ionetl%,otiansaanrset
By
tuyeedt) ,and a d
i Treasury 3
minutes, 286 persons west.
reduced, with salaries amounting to 105,7461. making a
total of 4,050 persons reduced, and a net amount of
709,7941. saved in salaries. The Might Hon. Gentleman
'hen proceeded to notice the speech of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kerry, designating it as indecent and

!mparliamentary. He observed that his zealous defence of
. he Government seemed to afford some ground for the sus.
.Acion that such communication had taken place between
him and the other side of the House as left his testimony
in their favour not worthy of much credit. After all the
boast that had been made dhotis reduction, the only reduc-
tion he could find was one of 20,0001. and that had been
made in consequence of the recommendation of Committee
of that House. There had, likewise, been a sum of 10 0001.

with revert to the Civil List; but that had been given
❑p; and in fact the Civil List proposed by the Noble
Lord was the same as that which had emanated from the
late Government. Was there any reduction of pensions
about which so much noise had been made? Was there any
reduction in the estimates? Certainly not in the Army or
in the Navy, far there was an increase in both ; in the
Ordnance the reduction was very trifling ; and with re-
spect to the'otli'r estimates, they were not yet before the
[louse: bat he believed he might say that, on the whole,

the estimates exceeded the estimates of last year, and of
every year since the Duke of Wellington had taken office.
If, then, there was no reduction horn the state of things—
for 'suffering the existence of which the late Government
had been characterised as birds of prey—what was there
to justify the praises of the Hon. Member for Abmgdon.
the Hon. Member for Kerry, and the Hon. Member for
Middlesex ? What was there that had been done by the
present Government to lull the suspicions of those Hon.
Gentlemen ?—(Hear, hear.) Who could recollect the
Right Hon. Baronet's speech against pensions and sine-
cures, when he sat on the Oppositio❑ side of the House,
without being a,tanished that he could now sit down
calmly and tranquilly, satisfied with the report of a Com-
mittee ? It was b 3 means of the Right Hon. Baronet,
and of the friends who acted with him; that the public
mind bad been exasperated to a great extent on this very
subject, and yet now not one single reduction was proposed.
The fact was, that their object had been answered, in
raising the flame, and in exciting that suspicion which had
mainly tended to overthrow the late Government ; and now
that they were in office, and found that it would not he
possible to appease the public demand by making reduc-
tions, they were obliged to have recourse to this question
of Reform, in the hopes of making that a subterfuge.—
(Cries of " oh.") He would repeat, that in his opinion, that
measure had been brought forward to misdirect the public
mind, and to take away its attention from the question o
retrenchment. But if Hon. Gentlemen would take the

trouble to watch public opinion and public writers, they
would see that the object was to direct the public mind
to the extinction of the public debt, and the ruin of the
public credit. as the necessary rept& of a Reformed Par-
liament.—(Hear, hear.) This was no new idea of his

own.—(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman here
continued his observations in a low voice; upon which
some Hon. Gentlemen exclaimed, " Speak out." If any-
thing tended more than another to convince him of the
propriety of his opposition to the Reform that was now
proposed, it was to find that it obtained for the Govern-
ment the support of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and
the Hon. Member for Bridport, anti such sort of gentle-
mettf—(A laugh.) _ _

Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I cannot understand bow
the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind is constituted, to lead
him to suppose that the Hon. Member for Kerry cannot
give his support to the Government on this occasion with-
out some base and secret understanding having taken pl :ce

between that Hor. and Learned Gentleman and bia.llla-
jesty's Ministers.—(Cheers.) If I had not heard the ob-

servations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, I could not have
believed it possible, that because the Hon. Member fur

Kerry had done justice to a simple statement of facts, the
Right Hon. Gentleman would have thought it necessary
again to revert to an insinuation, to the want of foundation
of which my Right Hon. Friend, the Secretiry for Ireland.
has pledged his honour, and which I am sure the Right
Hon. Gentleman cannot doubt for a moment.—(Hear.)
Did I want to retort on the Right Hon. Gentleman, I

think that I should find ample opportunity in the marvel-
lous union that has taken place between him and the Hon.
Member for Preston.—(Cheers.) I must confess, that I
felt
participated i phaet:rt in the
iing
the
late astonishment
Chancellor
thatnf every o
theE Exchequer
e mustciner lacheer
tve
that Hou. Gentleman's speech ; but still more astonished
was I in hearing the Right Hon. Gentleman who has just
sat down re-echo that speech, sentence by sentence.—
(Cheers.) Certainly politics lead to strange coalitions-
-I(ll...tianungs,h telr
haeni
iteivechteehirss )o—n
one)—hut
ill go down tiolisptoersyteorfi
tycoaa-,
unexampled.
This strange connection which now sub-
sista between the Hon. Member for Preston—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. Hunt)—who profe,ses himself a radi-
cal Reformer, and the party whose cry is " No
Reform," and who, I suspect, lost office and power be-
cause their leader would consent to no Reform whatever—
because be conceived the sys.em of representation which
now existed to he the most perfect that the art of man
could accomplish- This was the memorable declaration of
the leader of the Right Hon. Gentleman's party on the
first night of the
tlhaset
RightSessio n of
Hon.
Gentleman
a end ntetro-i
nnting hat
ewToehaelitikaingvehmtrisnteehnntnh.eGHenotnle.
mMaenmabpepreaforra Ptaresptlounm. e
iHmevaeri.f)—on
having discovered a very imperfect fulfillmt•nt of the object
of those speeches which I delivered when on the other side
of the House. I am, however, quite satisfied that I have
a tight to state that, since I accepted office, 1 have en-
deavoured to fulfil all the retrenchment that I urged from
the other side of the House upon the then Government.—
When on that side I certainly commented on the salaries
of the Members of the Privy Council of the Government
to which I was opposed. I certainly commented on the
fact that,_ not satisfied with the salaries which they en-
joyed, they were pluralists ; and I complained that while
officers who held situations were abated of
theirpoor half pay
half-pay, those distinguised individuals either held
their full pay, or
together with their offices held large sine-
(Hear.) Now, what is the fact at this moment?
leLsurthere a single individual in the present Cabinet against
whom this charge can be brought?—(Cheers.) I say
no —(Cheers.) What further is the fact? When on the
'other
side of the House I contended that the salaries of the
public officers were too high. And have we done nothing
since ere ct'me into office towards reducing them ?
(Bear.) It would be tedious to state all that have been
reduced; but it is well known that almost all the great
offices of State have undergone a deduction of from five
to twenty per cent., anti that Bills are now actually before
the House with respect to the reduction of some of those
salaries. The Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Sadler)
has sada that he always protested against beginning with
:be reduction of the salaries of clerks, and those holding
inferior offices, while the salaries of the superior officers
rernainA untouched. That has always been my prin-
ciple ; and we have not begun with the reduction of clerks'
salaries; but having begun our reduction with the salaries.
of the Cabinet Ministers, we are proceeding downwards,
endeavouring to administer strict justice on the part of the
public without pressing too hard on its servants.—(Hear,
hear.) In proof of the correctness of what am stating,
let me direct your attention to what has been dont, with
also
nsa eonr
dsabbvi
respect to the Commissioners of the Customs; and here•
let me do justice to the late AdMinistration, who, I must
say, during the list eighteen months of their holding office,
seemed disposed to make large reductions. Two of those
went; but what have we done in the short time that we
have occupied their places ? We have reduced. the sala-
ries of the remainder, from 1,4001. to 1,2001. a year.
Navyreduced from 1,000/. to 800/. a year; besides which,
havethe (;t;n ma
nisdsi otini
ee rsrheiapt s
we
Nwae'vhyavtie,
the
et
amountdown ontfhenrinsei,t situations connected
‘cvohnineehe twedav
receivingwith the
from SO/. to 1,0001. a year, in addition to salaries, amount
i fromea
sg tpouabt
nemyt between eeuespinroe4nOt
ma and 50.
easfteo;n.
chenl
;td
toi:ndoßti
timgi
sha make
he
Hon.etheseref
therefore
r e ne necessary
statementsessarGentlemany
CVemn baysiss
for Tae
all t o
time
tmhmaaktuesetthbeese statements. 'Neither do I say that
our
npdl. e
an be one ; quite the reverse. • But I say
tt
that
shall we
be able to redeemgdiavelln:,
respect to the Worthy Alderman's proposition, I never, at
pledges.--(Cheers.)
irchdeoeurba.t)thalvt
any contended for the reduction of saliries' to the
standard of 1797.. I 'did. Make it the groiriid` work of my
Poi abolished
Victualling
uh‘ eldl
fourgD of
pf abolisheda
trhttele: the late Govern-

observations, that prices have fallen .since 1797. . But
have we not yielded to that fact ? I say that we have.
ror in.many cases we have made reductions even beyond
the standard of 1797 ; and, therefore, to tie us down to
that very ration giunhl be very inexpedient. What we
have done has been in accordance to the rule which we
prescribed to ourselves. W►.at we shall do will be in ac-
cordance to that rule; and 1 have no doubt that in the
course cif the next session we shall be able to bring down
ill that can be brought down, consistently with the secu-
rity and well-being of the Government of the country. I
Mould have concluded the observations which I had to

make here, but that the Right lion. Gentleman has con-

nected the question of Reform with the destruction of
public credit and the ruin of all the great institutions of
the country. Now I ask the Right Hon. Gentleman

,vhether there is not something singular in the fact, that
those who ought to be most sensitive on the score
of public credit—viz the public creditors them-
selves—should entertain an opinion diametrically op-
oosite to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman ?
If we contrast the state of the public credit at this moment
with what it was at the period when the Reform Bill was
it* introduced, it will be clearly perceived that the public
aredit of the country has vastly improved.—(A voice here
.xclaimed, " no, no.") Dnes the Hon. Gentleman who
.rives that negative mean to deny the fact that the funds
lave since the period to which I alluded risen six or seven
per cent. ?—(Hear, hear.) Is he ignorant, that at a meet-
ing bell in the City of London to petition in favour of Re-
form, one of the resolutions was proposed by a banker (I
shall not mention his name,) who is supposed to be the
I trgest fundholder in the kingdom.--(llere some Hon.
Member intimated that the !tinker alluded to was Mr.
Loyd.) I do allude to Mr. Loyd as having proposed that
resolution. But, independently of these paints, does it
not stand irrefragable, and beyond contradiction, that if
the measure was necess try for the internal peace and tran-
quillity of the country. it must also he nece•sary for the
public faith and public:security of the country ?—(Cheere.)
But the Right lion. Gentlemen has also thought proper to
taunt us with the present state of the estimates. I hope
that when we are thus taunted the House will he so good
.s to remember what was the state of the country when
the Right Hon. Gentlemen's party quitted office. —(Loud
cheers.) I hope it will be recollected what was the con-
'ition of the empire when the late Ministers fled from
the helm, declaring that they were unabie any longer
to govern ir.—(Cheers.) At that time the six home
counties of England were almost in a state of open in-
surrection—the state of Ireland was most alarming—
and our foreign relations were most diteurbetl.—(A laugh
from some Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition.) Does
the Hon. Gentleman who laughs at that statement mean
to deny the fact ?—(Cheers.) I have every respect for
that lion. Gentleman, and should be happy to hear him on
his legs controvert tny statement ; but the mode which he
has at present adopted is neither courteous nor cus-
tomary.—(Hear, hear.) Sure I ant, however, that the
country will hear there circumstances in mind—and if
by a healing course of measures the internal peace and
tranquillity of the country can be restored, I am satisfied
that it will be in the power of the Executive Government
to effect large reductions in the military and naval esta
blishments of this country.—(Cheers.) I agree with the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, that these immense establish-
ments are the main cause of the enormous expenditure of
the country ; but he may rely upon it, that when we can
make any reduction we shall ; and that if Reform, as we
expect, give real tranquillity to the country, the time for
those reductions will very soon arrive. But at the same
time let us remember that that measure is necessary as a
preliminary.—(Cheers.) By that measure we are pre-
pared, es we ever have been, to stand or fall. If
that measure could be carried, we entertain a con-
fident expectation that all our pledges of economy
may be easily redeemed, and that, instead of stand-
ing convicted of a base dereliction of duty, as has
been laid to our charge this night, 'we shall go down
to postsrity as Ministers—(A laugh on the Opposition
side, which was answered by loud cheers:from the Ministe-
rial benches)—who redeemed not only their pledges—l
had almost called them their paltry pledges—of economy,
hut also that pledge which was the ground-work of their
party when in opposition, viz.—of their conviction, that
without a Reform in the representation of the country,
the Government of it could not be safely or honourably
conducted.--(Loud and long-continued cheering.)
Mr. GOULBURN—He would not argue with the
Right lion. Baronet what the opinion of posterity might
be; but if the judgment of the present day was an index
of that of posterity, he thought that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had not much reason to flatter himself on that head
--(Hear, hear.) He had not heard the whole of the
Right Hon. Baronet's speech: but it c.rtainly had struck
him as extraordinary, that the Right Hon. Baronet had
contrived, very ingeniously, to avoid the real question be-
fore the House for the sake of launching into an argument
on that of Reform. On adverting to the motion pro-
posed to the House by the Right lion. Baronet when on
the Opposition side, he • (Mr. Goulburn) found that he
distinctly alluded to the rate of salaries paid in 1797;
and he was therefore surprised how he could oppose the
motion of the worthy Alderman on the present occa-
sion. The Right Honourable Baronet, however, had
accused the late Government of leaving the affairs of
the country in such a situation when they fled front
the helm, that this could not be avoided. But the
late Government did not fly from the helm. They
acted on a princip'e on which it was consistent with
the dignity of a Government to act. When the House of
Commons showed that it had withdrawn that support,
without which the Government could not act effectively
they did tender their resignation to his Majesty, and
begged hint to allow them to withdraw their services.
Other Governments might pursue a different course.—
(Hear, hear.) He was willing to admit that the home
counties of England were nearly in a state of insurrection
at the time when the present Government came into office;
but could the Right Hon. Baronet entertain a doubt as to
the termination of those disturbances, whatever Govern-
ment might have happened to be in office ? Had not
measures been already taken for the suppression of those
disturbances? And iu fact, though it was true that
Special Commissions were issued, were not they put dawn
—not owing to the merits of any particular Ministry, but
because the country was ready to lend its support to
whatever party might be holding the reins of Government ?
With respect to what had fallen from the Right Hon.
Baronet with respect to Ireland, he (Mr. Gouiburn) did
not apprehend that that was the time to enter into a dis-
cussion on the state of that country; but if he might
judge from the statements Which were now appearing in
the newspapers, of what was taking pace there at the
pitesent time, he would be justified in saving there still was
in that country, and had been for some time past, much to
alarm every man who felt for its interests, and who wished
that it should continue to retain its connection with Eng-
land.—(Hear, bear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had inti-
mated that there would hereafter be great reductions in the.
Naval and Military Establishments of the country. Be'
hoped that things would presently wear such an aspect as.
to allow of tie proposed reduction ; and in that case lx,
should have the sincerest gratification in supporting the
Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. STANLEY never remembered any debate in which
such inconsistency had been manifested between the speeches
of Hon. Members and their votes.—(Cheers.) The Hon.
Member for Middlesex had been inconsistent with himself ;
and the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) consistent
only with the Hon. Member for Preston.—(A laugh and
cheers.) His Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) had
fallen under the censure of the last speaker.; for having in-
troduced the subject of Reform, when _the fact was, that
whatever his Right Hon. Friend had said on that subjeCt,
was only in reply to the Right lion.'Friend' olthe late
Chancellor of the Eichequer. It was certainly somewhat
unfortunate that the Right lion. Gentleman had missed
hearing nearly all his Right Hon. Friend's speech, as well
as the whole of the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Daw-.
son) speech, or he would have known that that part of the
speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty, of which he
was in
(Mr. D
answer to what
n) on it
.s had fallen
subjectf ni
m the
of
tß•Oitglihptlaind
Hon.
e Gentleman
Reform.
Mr. DAWSON—The question of Reform was not in-
tradueed by me.
Mr. STANLEY—it was not for him to tell by what.
undefined chain of reasoning the Hon. Gentleman had ar-
rived at the subject of Reform. But he would appeal to
the recollection of those who had heard what the. Right.
Hon. Gentleman had said—not to that of the late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who had not heard what he bail
said—(A laugh)—whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
had not concluded his speech with a violent tirade against
Reform, as if the Government bad never supported Res
form before, but had suddenly seized upon it us a new
idea to carry away the minds of the people from the subject
of retrenchment.—(Hear, hear.) It might well have been
said that the present GoVernment was deluding the country
if, in the state in which the late Government had left the
country, they had pretended that they were ahla to
dintiniah its military establishment.—(Hear, bear.) But
the Right Hon. Gentlenian (Mr. Goitlbtirn) had, by way of
taunt, said that there were some Governments who would
not fly from the helm, but who were still determined to
hold, their places. He (Mr. Stanley) would say this, that
the present Ministers were determined, if they could, to
carry,the grrat 'question of Reform; and if they did carry
that great measure, on their public character and

principles had. throughout been staked, they would h►=e 'in
time in forwarding those other measures which they
uniformly supported. The public wished and hoped, he
believed, that they should remain in office to carry Iliac
Bill through. For his own part he should not feel any
regret at abandoning office, nor would, he believed, any,
,f his friends; but neither he nor any one of them would
shrink from office, however laborious their duties or thaok-
less their task, as long as they thought that their holding
,ffice was for the benefit of the country. The Right
lion. Gentleman said that it was not at present for the
Itenefit of the country. But why did the Right Hon.
Gentleman and his friends quit office? Because they could
not carry on the Government. Public opinion had been
ffonounred too strongly against them. They quitted office
after having been defeated on one question, because they
would not encounter defeat on the question thit was next
to follow.—( Hear, hear.) He had heard the Noble Duke
!ately at the head of the Government declare, that he left
;ace and gave up the situation of Prime Minister after
having been left in a minority on the question of the Civil
List, because he did not like to suffer a defeat on the great
position of Parliamentary Reform.--(Hear, bear.) The
:tight Hon. Gentleman had taunted Ministers with keep-
ing their places after being left in a minority, and he
was very severe on his Noble Friend the Chancellor ( f
the Exchequer on account of his Budget; but did the
Right Honourable Gentleman not recollect then what
had happened to his own friends, and to himself, on one
.n• two occasions ? Was he, as Chancellor of the Exchequer
never left in a minority—soeser obliged to abandon any
if his measures.—(Cheers.) (A voice, " the Stamp
Duties.") He did not mean the Stamp Duties, though that
.vas one case. But did they go out of office when they
were left in a minority on the question of giving two pen-
sions to the sons of Cabinet Ministers.—(Loud eheers.).--
rimy had not shown any reluctance to remain in office
after being defeated. He did not complain of that.--(A
voice, " The Test and Corporation Acts also.") The de-
feat on the Test and Corporation Acts he considered at
tiifle. He repeated, he did not blame the Right Hon.
Gentleman for not leaving office, but he thought it right
'o recall these circumstances to his recollection, when be,
.if all men, talked of Ministers having a pertinacious at-
tachment to office, in which they had, as yet, remaintd
but a very short time compared with the period in which
office had been held by the Right Hon. Gentleman and his
friends.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had
re-
ferred, in his discursive speech, to the state of Ireland;
hut there was no time to discuss a question of so much
difficulty as that on such an incidental occasion. Much
had been done for that country, though more yet remained
co do; but take that country throughout, and he would
venture to assert, that there was no comparison between
the security now generally enjoyed, which was greater
than had ever been anticipated, and the state cf dis-
turbance in which that country was left when the
Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends had left office.
He stated that, fearing no contradiction. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had talked of measures which had been
taken before he left office; but he must say, that he
knew nothing of them, and had never discovered any trace

f them. As far as be understood and was informed of
measures for the suppression of the disturbances of that
country when the Right Hon. Gentleman left the Admi-
nistration, there was no public record whatever, nor the
slightest public proof that any such measures ever were
contemplated.—(Cheers.) If there were any, they had
all melted away " like the baseless fabric of a vision."
With regard to the southern and western counties of Ire-
land, in which the disturbances had prevailed, there cer-
tainly was much to regret ; but there was al.o now much
that was consolatory, and much that encouraged a hope of
returning and continuing peace. Peace and tranquility
were, in fact, being restored in that country, more rapidly
than those who did not behold it could well believe.. If any
measure more than another had tended to this good end—
if any measure more than another had checked that danger
with which the country was threatened, and might per-
chance be threatened rgain with it—if any one Ineasuro
mere than another had stayed the agitation which was
going on for what was called the Repeal of the Union,
which meant the separation of the two countries—

it was that very measure which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had so much abused—that measure of Par-
lanrentary Reform—(" Hear" from Mr. O.Connell)—
which bad at once pleased the people of England, and
satisfied the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon:
Gentleman' could not pr.ssihly conceive that he (Mr.
Stanley) and the Hon. Meml•er for Kerry could act to-
gether for the good of the country, notwithstanding his
own extraordinary union with the Hon. Member for
Pieston ; and he could not conceive that there could Le

any co-operation between bum and Mr. O'Connell unless
there had been some dishonourable and disgraceful com-

promise. It had been his painful duty to act in opposition
to the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry. If be were

placed in a similar situation again, if he found that the
Hon. and Learned Member was exerting his great talent,
and his extraordinary abilities in effecting mischief—if be
found him again trying to offend against the laws of the
country, be would not be found deficient in the perform-
ance of his duty, .and certainly would not neglect, how-
ever painful he might feel it, as strenuously to oppose that
Hon. and Learned Member as he had done before.—
( Hear, bear.) But when he found that Han. and Learned

- -
Member exerting his great talents for the advantage of
the country, he should feel ashamed of himself, if he allowed
the remembrance of any political differences—be would
not say personal differences, for there were none
—but if he could suffer political differences to
prevent him from concurring with that Honourable
and Learned Member, and co-operating zealously
and cordially with him, when he found that he was
labouring for the good of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
It was not his intention to follow the Right Hon. GentleL
man through the various topics of his speech, in which he
had touched upon every thing but the question before the
House; he would only say, that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's charge of inconsistency against his Right Hon.
Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, was without
foundation. His Right Hon. Friend never had contem-
plated the reduction of salaries without any reference
whatever to the change in the currency. For his own
part, he felt so strongly against the motion of the Hon;
Alderman, and he was convinced that the House and the
country felt so strongly against it, that he doubted whe-
ther the Hon. Alderman, though supported by the Hon.
Member for Preston, could bring the question to the test
of a division. If he did, so strong was his, conviction of
the feeling of the country, and ao strong was his con-
scientious conviction, that he must say, he had never gone
out of the House against any motion with a mete thorough
satisfaction that his opinion was correct.--(" Question.")
Mr. GILLON reproached the Opposition with hav-
ing, on several occdsions, formed most unnatural coa-
litions, and to compliment Mr. Hume for his consistency.
Some of the Right Hon. Gentlemen had spoken of the
distress of the country; but he happened to know that it
was not so great as in former periods. In 1826 and 1827,
when the Right Hon. Gentlemen were in ()like, the
people of Scotland were labouring fourteen hours in the
day, and not earning above three shillings in the we k.
That was not now the case. (On the Hon. Member
resumingbis seat, there were loud calls of " Question.")
Mr. Alderman WOOD briefly replied.
The House then divided ; when there' appeared—
For the previous question 216
Against it l3
Majority against Alderman Wood's motion --403
The following are the thirteen Members who voted fur
the original motion :
Biirrell, Sir r. M. Hodgson, John iSibthorpe, C. 1). L.
Bainbridge, E. T. . Handcock, Richard Sadler, M. I'.
Bateson, Sir R. lngilby, Sir W.
• Dick, Quintin Kenyon, Hon. L. TELLEas.
Hunt, H. Mostsn, F. W. L. Hunie, Joseph
Houldsworth, T. Wood, Alderman
GENERAL REGISTER OF DEEDS.

Ou re-entering the Gallery, we found Mr. JOHN
CAMPBELL on his lees, moving for leave to bring in
his General Register of Deeds Bill. We understood hint
to complain of the opposition which had been made to the
Bill by one class of professional men. They had not op-
posed it directly and in person, but they had put others
forward to oppose it. The Bill bad been described as in-
tended to bring all deeds to London, and lodge them in one
mausoleum. Nothing was more false. He intended that pro-
prietors should still retain the custody of their own deeds,
though copies of them might be lodged in the office. It was
said that it would be better to have offices in each county,
.and that if there were only one great office, there might
be some great calamity, and then all their deeds would be
lost. But what he had said of the proprietors keeping
:hs,ir own deeds was a complete answer to this ; and if
there were offices in different parts of the country, that
would occasion great trouble and inconvenience. The
country solicitera were afraid of losing their business; but
their fears sere without foundation ; for, according to the
Bill, not a single London agent would be necessary. The
Bill would certainly contribute to put an end to equitable
mortgages; but they were considered an evil, and the late
•Solieitor•General had brought in a Bill to prevent a de-
posit of deeds, for money advanced, giving a lien on the
land. lie hoped that Bill would pass into a law, and that
would relieve the Register Bill from this objection:,,
had been asked by the Nob:e Lord, the repre.enta,,t,:i,..,
fur
Yorkshire, to exempt that county from' the er'ow,
lie
of
the Bill. If the Noble Lord Ovoid in.
.ht
FrEl:sl;:tiliF!t tuna of uu one or bcthtit to

any person but the attorneys. The Hon. Member con-
cluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to estahlish
a General Register of Deeds and other Documents affecting
real property in England and Wales.
'Lord MORPETH approved of the principle of the Bill,
but as the county of York possessed already a registration
of its own, he hoped he understood the Learned Gentle-
msn right when he said it was his intention for the present
to exclude that county from its operation.
After a few words from Mr. SctioNswan and Mr.
STRICKLAND to the same effect,
Mr. GURNEY fax we understood) supported the Bill.
Mr. LITTLETON thought the Bill might be produc-
tive of benefit; but hoped the Hon. Member would allow
the Bill to srand over until next Session, both to allow
time for inquiry, and to enable the landed interest to satisfy
themselves as to its propriety and advantages.
After an ohservation from Mr. P_ AGET, which was not
audible in the gallery,
Mr. BLAMIRE said that the Bill had occasioned the
greatest alarm in the minds of all the gentry and landhol-
ders of the county of Cumberland, who c‘Nt.idered it a
most unconstitutional alteration, which would deprive
them of the custody of the deeds of their estates ; and
tbey therefore prayed either that the Hon. Member would
abandon the Bill altogether, or exempt all the counties
north of Yorkshire from its operation.—(A laugh.)
Mr. SPENCE was of opinion that the Bill would be
productive of the best effects, hut thought it would be
better to allow time for inquiry.
After a few words from Mr. O'Connell, Mr. C. Fer-
gusson, Mr. Lefroy, and Mr. Campbell, leave was given
to bring in the Bill.
Mr. CAMPBELL subsequently obtained leave to bring
in Bills—to amend the Law relating to Inheritance, to
atrend the Law relating to Dower, to amend the Law re-
lating to the cutesy of England, to abolish Fines and Re-
coveries, and to substitute other assurances in lieu thereof,
and to amend the Law relating to Prescription and the
limitation of Actions.