The Sun.
London, England, 1807-02-17 00:00:00

' Which the", did not at pregerit. ' ftlsels 1;13 tin-
plements of the smu,,,riers..shOuld be de,troyed, and
fines imposed thp,persons upon whom these
vessels and implements should be found. 2iy these
inealis, if not altogether extinguished, the evil would
be greatly checked. • With-a' view 'to this oSjeft,
large Peace Establishment would he highly heneti-
qNial 3 and if chargeable in one view, it would be
Ittonmnical in another, as it would be Elie means of
improving the'revenue, Which vinr uld go to defray
its expences. These were the grounds of his hope,
and he held forth- only a hope, that this plan would
dfiswei• the-ends- proposed. Here he would take oc-

eakion: to give some 'explanation '‘Vjtll reSlied to the
Property Tax; which he 'was supposed to have
pledged himself to repeal. That was not the nature
of his ;pledge, hilt that the means 'for repealing it
would ei6st, and that Parliament 'Would be free to
considerthe' propriety .6f apPlYing :them. .His• ow n
opinion was inclinedtto concur with that of=the Hon.
Gentleman, that a small portion of the, Property
Tax would be less burthenserna than those Taxes on
consurnption, 'which, though. less immediately felt,
were ultimately mere. burthensome and less produc-_
five,, as being charged with a profit by every person
througl"Vibbse hands the . article passed, andditni-
.
rushed in a similar succession by every hand employed ,
in the colleaion; The propriety of the continuance
Of sueheasroall'Property Tax would, however, re-
main to be regulated by the public feeling and the.
public 'convenience at the time. He agreed with
him as tOthe :difficulty 'of continuing the War Taxes.
Onething however the Elon.Gentleman was mistaken
in. There were no War Taxes on foreign goods for
exportation. Fie allowed it was impossible to calcfee
late precisely on the Itedercietion of the mortgaged
taxes in 'l4 years: Hirt frond a' mciderate calCniation
that would be the period of-redemption. Iffrom.the
rise of stocks, the Sinking Fund. upon these, War
Loads should be slower in 'operation, it would be,
larger in amount ; there would 'then be 0n1y.4 per
cent. .for interest, and 6 for Sinkitg Fund. There
would be besides a, great advantage in the terms
future LoahS, so that what would be lost in one way.
Weald be.ganied'in another, and as the whole was
to. be comprehended in one • general account,-- a'
riatadu the funds Would, be upon the whole heed:-
AS to the objection made by the Noble
Lord. and 'the Hon. Gentlemen oppOsite, and ifiCKle`'
elsewhere also, that this system of borrowing toone:y•
at compound interest; -was attended with double ex,,
pence, that was true; ;but the charge was more than
compeirSated by the CoMparative 'benefits' that would
be afforded by preventing thaexhausiing of the Conn
' try, and by renovating and invigorating it& resources.'
',lf the Country was in that-state, as the Hon. Gentle-
man apposite argued,' that the•increaSe2of tsixation
Would diminish the consumption and the produce of
the tax, we were in that situation, that a perseve-,
rance..in the old'system would wear away from under
'our feet the .ground upon which we stood; it was•,
absolutely neCessary to adopts souse -plan to,prevent:
• additional taxation, and this was the only plan that
kvouid aosWer that object. The best mode of judging
the merits of zthis plan was to compare it •with•tbat
of the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh). It was ob-
i •
jecled to this plan, that it went to legislate for the;
future; 'that it assumed a certain amount of expen
diture, and that too low an amount, Without taking
'into the calculation the thethis of judging Of the real
amount of the Wants that -would be; to be jimmied.
for.. 'Nothing was more funie -than this Objettion,
as the :plan would lend itself to any 'increase Of ex-
penditure that may arise. The only two ways in
which could fail• to afford alleviation were these :
first, if the War Taxes should fad:during war; if that'
should be the case, it would not be the consequence
of this plan mote than any other. the failure would
be, id the nature of the Tax itself, and would hap-
pen:. under any one plan as wed as another. But if
frem. any ,cause any of the present War Taxes should
fail, the House would tax other articles so as to keep:
trp thb 'present amount-et revenue from the War
Taxes. plan did, no more than we were
liable to under the present system. As to the otherl
point, that an inCreaSed expenditure xi,as to be look-
ed tor, he took the a&ual state of our expenditure.
only as a secure foundation -to-reason upon. With
resped to Expeditions to the-Continent, or sub-
sidies, these were no data to go upon. All he
meant 'was, to shew the facility of providing for
the present 'common expenditure to any length
of time; but he. should be sorry hi doing so to
adopt any. plan of a mature to prechide the House'-
frorn,,acceintoodating the basis of that Plan to any
circumstahces that may arise. Any Plan not so ap-•
plicable• Would be'a very unfit basis' for a 'permanent
:system of Finance. Ha did not like to assume at
random 'an amount
,of contingent expences, or ,an
increase of common expeneeS, which would afford,
room oniy fur reasoning as it; founda—
tion. He had shown that the falling Co of Annuities,
after those:applied to the Deferred Stock, would pre-
vent the necessity of having recourse to any Taaes.
:for 3 years: in the subsequent 7 years 292,n00 I. a
year would be wantedi in' the next' I'o years,' no-
thing. Supposing an -expenditure of two millions
for the ,Coetineet, the foundation of the 'Plan world
-not be undermined, nor its firmness shaken. The
only consequence would be, that from the increase
of the War Loins by this demand, the War 't'ax'es
wiatild-beapplicable an inferior proportion to the
§upplenzentaray Loaes. There would be three years
-still ekeinpt from taxation by the falling in of An-
nuities. In the subsequent seven' years 5.05,0001.
:annually would be wanted, 'instead of 292;0001j to
be raised by new taxes. In the•five tollowitig years
no taxes would be wanted, and in the last five years
'of•the series only 3J0,0601. Thus, in the constant
succession of the War Taxes, and the relief froin all
lfiirther taxation for three years, the ,Plan would be
obviously beneficial, and only a moderate increase
of Taxes Would' be nece-ssary in some parts of the
period,' He stated thusanucla to sliew, that be did
not isainne to legislate for the future is ithont •going •
on firm ground. He was next to come more im-
rnediately. to the Plans proposed by the Noble Lord '
•io his Resolutions. These Resolutions divided them-'
selves into three points : 'the first and sixth related
to tee:.comparative effed of the present system and;
proposed Plan; 'and the ninth add tenth, adopting the
vices, as they had been termed, of his Plan, :la ere
intend&l to skew, that 'the same means of relief
would beafforded by the existiiig, systeineis-by the
:newt But the Nohle Lord had assumed as a-
right on the parr of the Public to takefrom the Slak-
ing Fund witheet giving'any equiveleet t tf%e stock- -
holders. Hu agreed with his night Hos. Facud.

tierney). that the 'Sinking- Ftiltt Was 'at first
created not tfor the•interest ;01 the Stockholder, but
of .the Public. It wits a hoop in tBO6, granted by
Mr. ':Pitt to the StockholderS. But xiihat waS the'Sl-•
tuation of the Stockholders who had since lent their
capital on the credit of that Fund-? The I tousegtould
pause before itshoohltouch that 'sacred grciond.—
! The Noble Lord; with his .Plan, interposed be.Aveen
• the Public and the Publie Creditor, by proposing to
take the excesses Of the Sinking-Fund after" the year
1816, and without- giving •any equivalent to the
Stockholder. The effect of the Noble Lord's Plan
On the redeMption of the ,Public Debt would be,
that ninety_millions would, at the end of-the period;
remain unredeemed, and the whole' would not to
paid till the year ; whereaS, by the new'Plaa,
the whole 'woOld be redeemed in 1324, The Noble
Lord', Plan, therefore, would -retard the.redemption
of the Debt eight years.
Anxious the Public Dlbt to pay,
'1 Like iiructew F A i.f,""" by delay.
The. Noble Lord takes all that Cook retard :the ,Re-
demotion- of the Debt, and' leaveS out all that:could
accelerate it. The plan of the Noble Lard proposed
to' take the excesses Of the SiniAing Fund 'between
1816 and 1826, in Which period only they could
accrue ; and as it would be necessary .for ,him to
provide for the Loan of the years between the pre-'
sentyear and. tbeyear 1816, an.acnount 01.6,947, ()OW.
would
,be, necessary. If this sum were not
.provided
by new ,taxes, it Must be by ruinous loan's ; and if'
ultiMately-to be provided for out of the excesses of
the Sinking Fund in the last period', it, would .an- •
Ocipate these excesses, and render ihein
when they should accrue,. • Asto what had been
said relative to a future Peace F.sfahrithrnent, be had
; only to observe, that 'that sobjea had not been ex-
cluded from the view of his Majesty's MiniSters, -
The means of providing for that E4tabiisliment
would exist in a higher degree than, at the close of•
'the late war; 'certainly ill a much higher degree
than at the close 'of' the Ashericati war, when the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. RoSe) ad-•
witted that the PUblic Reveime was -wholly insuf-
ficient.
,In 1786 the Peace Establishment was five
;
millions 'and the ReVenue, exclusive of the addi
tional taxes, athoonted only, to between three and
four improrement Was a come,.
quence *of the gro;ving prosperity of the
At thetldse of the late'War, Mr. Addington, though
,!
burthened with 56 charged Upon the
'dame Tax, by, one, 'stroke.of Manly and vigorous
firtancial pOlicy, relieved the cot-Intl from the ,lo-
doliteTaX, and lititided the debt charged upon it,
.•proViiiiag at 'the -Sarno-time for 'the' interest add
Sinking Fuod uponit. On -the next Pe:ice there
would be 'an 'amount of. seven millions arising out,
cif the'arinual Taxes, the..Surplus.of the Consolidated
Fund, and the produce of the Lottery, 'apoliCableta
this Establishmentiaod; as alter the 1.810
coOsiderable .sums,,Woold be set free in each year,
any s,:ialt sum that 'Might he necessary to fill tip,
the Peace EStablishmeot might be apprbpri:ited front
tiretn. •He should sad what, may be the amount
• of the Peace Estabi:Aorient, for that would depend
on the stale of France, and of -Europe ;.• but he,
could look with ~outithinee to the. resouraes of the,
country to •• supply ample means for providing for' ,
such an E,tablislonent. He complained that the
Noble Lord, iu calculating the comparative effect of
I. the new plan, bad given an unfair View of the
question, by stating, as he had truly done, the'
amount of the debt created, but Withholding the.
etfe4 of the Sinking Fond for its redemPtion.. As
to the plan of the 'NOble 'Lord, contained in his
eighth Resolution, for' keeping -the Sinking 'Fund
stationary when it should 4mount•• to an equality
with the Loan, and for adding the interest of the
stun borrowod. to the amount of the Lian in each
yeari. whilst the interest; drill Sinking 'Auld upon
that interest, was .to be defrayed out of :the COn-
solidated Fund, to be afterwards repbseed out of the
excesses of the'Sinking Fund, he considered that as
the tnrist ruinous System that could be devised.—
The sumte be provided in the first year would be
small ; but, without troubling the Committee with
the intermediate accumulation, he should state, that
before the'excesses shotild accrue in 1816, the sum
to be provided in the-year would be eleven millions,
the aggregate.of sums borrowed would beetle hun-
dred and forty-eight or nine millions, and the charge
Opt the C.onSoli'di:ited hued Woold be fiYe hundred
thousand pounds. SuCh'n system 'Would' be much
more ruinous than his plan of Supplementary. Loans.
l'hegeneral result ofthe two plans would be, that by the
Noble Lord's plan the amount of debt created would •
he, in 1,826, .273,560,5311. with 'a Sinking Fund of
'8,96059871, ;: and by the new plan, the amount of
debt.would be 304,884;4421. with a Sinking Fundof
11.068,0_001.' So that with a•small-iocrease of the
Debt,.thcre would be more than double the•
amount of the,Sinking Fund. As to the other plan
of the Noble Lerd, it departed-froth the principle'
of giving` immediate relief to the ccitintrY, by pro-
tiding that we should go on as at present till the
Sinking Fund should equal the amount of Loan.
To this he had a fundamental obje6lion, because it
propo.:;,ed to lay on 730,0001. taxes annually, till the
Sinking 'Fond
.should reach the assumed limit, at
a time, When it was universally agreed that all.-;
tipn should' be reimbursed. Ibis plan did not in-
clude the possibility, of an increase of expenditure,
which would overturn the foundation upon whiCh
it: rested. An increase of expenditure would, create
an increasing debt, whilst the. Sinking Vund would
lie stationary. He had then to advert to two bene-
fits which would result from the new: plan, and
which it' was. important for the House to attend to.,
First, it would have a tendency to keep up the
price of the Public Funds ; and it was unnecessary
for him to state the importance of keeping up the
wine of the Funds. On this, point he could speak
with more confidence, beCanse, to the short space
of a fortnight, this effe& had ,been produced. The'
second benefit was, that it would have the, effeet
of keeping .doWn the price of stores, by keeping
down the extent of taxation. Having' trespassed
on the Committed at such great length, as much as
his own strength. -add the-' patience of the Housa
would perpit, he did.not Purpose again troubling
the Housempon the subje&, uoless it should be ne-
cessary for him tagive explanation upon any point
which might appear to require it.

Lesrc“%4s7.l.l,6REiGii intended to comprise,
in as small a-compass as possible, the' observations
ht had to make upon the subject betbre the Com-
mittee- As to-what had been said of the objection
iniptve 1 to hint and his Right, Hon. Friend (M;.
1""), that thi.: new plan A:a.; to legislate for th.:.

tore,7heyal oroy to State, that they did net 'contend
tfrie any eita,Ctmetit oat this subject would preclude ,
Parliament fromtaking such measures as would
hereafter •be deemed necessary. They kid oniV •
contended that Parliament should not inrolve itself
in measures' which, it Avotild have hereafter to alter
or abandon. There Wes but otte sentiment on alt
side-4 of the House with respell to the eXpediency
Of reeevieg the Cebtnitry from taxation. There was
something, coercive in the language of the Noble
Lord respeeting Fand. If he understood the
Noble Lord, he had said that the Sinkites Fund
was not to be touched, unless by a kind -of bare
gain with 'the StockholdeT, who was to have his
quid pro quo from the Public. flut he wiehed to be
intern-led what quid-pee /Ise was to be given to the
Stockholder when the Noble Lord came to take
the 'excesses of the Sinking I utacl. Tfw principle
laid down by-the Noble Lord oe this aubjeti wil/
not he acted upon, tied he -would. be obliged to
abaeden it. • Parliament had unquestionably a right
to exercise its discretion respeeqing the Siaking
'Funds; but here he begged to state, that he should
not wish for any measure to be adopted'that would
psOve injurious to the Public Creditor, and he cone
tended that the interestof the Public Creditor would
• be batter consulted' by the adoption of either (If his
suggestions than by the plan proposed by the Noble
Lord. If the Sinking Fund ~Vas to be touched at all,
it would, in either of the cases suggested by him,
-be touched in amanner less liable to objeCtien than
in the manner proposed in the new plan. The ex-
cesses as calculated on in the new plan would be
available both in war and in peace, and at the dis-
posal of the Minister, whereas, according to his plan,
the excesses could only be taken &hiring war, whett
loans would he necessary. His plan would afford
a greater principle. of limitation 'on the discretion of
Parliainent reseeding these excesses ; besides, the
interest of, the Stockholder was materially con-
cerned in keeping up. -the value of capital in, the
market, and it would be impossible to. effea that,
when in the last period a loan of thirty-two-
millions menially would be raised, nay' of thrty or
fifty Millielns, i.ii. censespience of the rise of stores,
the depreeiatioe of money, and an inerease; of ex-:
penditure. Small Loans, with a small Sinking
Fund, Would he much more beneficial to-the-Steck,
bolder ti7ae a- Loan of that amount with a Sinking
• Fund of tweeity-seven millione. The Noble Lord •
had tiny night, in exprees tel adinitted that bis .
system was 'founded u...)rt a pF,eciples of raising mu- .
ney upon a compound interest, -though -he coeteed- •
ed for the advantage of a compound •benefit. &it
he had no deniat• that the Noble.Lorci, up:ln reflec-
tion; wonld•perceiee how unwise a priociple that
was. -The,:Notqe Lord pr eeesed to borroc,v money.
to pay the inan'est of his War terms, 3S well as the'
• interest upon that interest.. What wbuld be the el-.
feet of such a statement going forth to Europe ?
There ,wereelood` calchlators, he'seisieel N.)ble
Lord to
.recelleCl, in • Europe, and pastileilsrly
• tlett part of-it with '.vhici, We we'reat piesseni at is-
sue, acid they could not tail to di cover the
_New); of-
a system built upon confined Loans and coMpound
.Interest, a system which, in,ist inevitably 'este to
lemkruptcy. There was. only one authority upon
which the Noble Lord could justify such a system,
and he thanked God that his late Right' Hozionreble
Friend afforded no such autherity. There had been
but one person who, as a public man, could declare
to a nation that he would provide for the expences of
a war, and•for thesinterest of the debt incurred, by
loan without taxes. -That man was M. Neckar,
and he trusted the example was' one which the Noble
Lord would not be ambitious to imitate. After the •
difficultieS experienced last year 'with, reaped -to-
taxes, and the gloomy representations that bad been
'made, without foundation, as it appeered to him, of
the finances of the country, it was somewhat ex-
traordinary to haVe this plan proposed .of raising
above four ,hundred ntiilions upon a fund of two mil-
lions and fifty-one thousand pounds. The Noble
Lord seemed to have found the Philosopher's stone,
imd'certainly it would appear to Europe as if there
was conjuring in'- it. Bat from the etteet of his
plan, it would appear that the Noble Lord had dis-
covered the negative Philosopiree'S :stone, which his
Right flout. Friend (Mr. Tierney) %voila 'explain to
him—the pewee- a spendinginoney without creating
yesonrces. He here begged I:2.:ve to repeat, that the.
Noble Lord's system would increase the public debt
ninety nellions and contended, that there was a -
most striking diTference. between its-eire,f:t, and that
'of the tattle operation of the presentkstem, or of
either of the plans which. lie had himself stiggeSted. •
The amount of the Debt under the Noble Lord's.
system, at the end of fourteen years, 'would •be
4:29;30,0001. the amount of Debt 'under his sug-
gestion, 369,935,00e1. which would give an increase.
of Debt of ae,000,0001 •The Sinking FUI:d, in the '
termer case, would he 27,000,0001. in the latter,
11,1 40,000 i. ; the' War Taxes, however,' would be
completely bound in the formercase, and be con).
.pletely -free in the latter, and; allowing for the re-.
dudion by amount of excesses, it would be brought
within 'a fraction °faits smiler proportion. to the Debt
under tlie Neble-Lord's plan, es the • Sinking Fund
would bear lii'theeliebt under his present sugges-
tion. The Noble Lord had said that the whole of
the WarTaXes would be pledged, yet on the reaurrs
of peace. it Would beopen to determine 'what taxes
might be substituted tbr any part. of them. The
consequence. watt' be, that the whole ,amount
would be to be laid on in a period of peace, when
the energies and zeal of a period of war would be re-
lexed, in- the place of being gradually lain on as the
occasion tna)i'require,Jand the Minister of the day
would be plated in .the "situation of devising means
of raisingthe,Whele at'once, ethounting to eight or
nine -millions, instead 'of• having the tWeety-one
millions of War Taxes at his dispose', There
.would he ten millions two hundred thousand of the
War Taxes made pernianetit, and there would con-

sequently remain but 10,80,0a1. -to be succes-
stvely set free.' Against such a da6trine be en e,e,d
his. protest. As to the plan he had suggested, he had
thought that by the explanation.he had given, he had
saved the I.oble Lord the trouble of waking an
attack
,upon his own '-principlcs: ne. whole of
what the Noble Lord had said on that tread, went
to prove, \that it would be more dangerous to act
upon his principles for rime years, than for twenty
years. His plan went' on ihe ground of a Mac
years expenditure ; itiui ct-rtainly with the same
fonds, wonld :Wd more loss tt) dew, t!-.av,
the suppletuentut loans Of the Noble Loa Lie
agreed that he could not ge en Nailer without