The Sun.
London, England, 1838-05-29 00:00:00

ever, in a much higher and more important subject—no less than the hap-
piness or misery of 700,000 fellow-beings.. The Hon. Baronet and
the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire having referred
to the state of Guiana, he begged to be allowed to read a short
passage from the dispatch of the Acting Governor of that Colony, dated
17th March last, which *as as follows :—" The Acting Governor has
perused the entire evidence with feelings of the deepest regret, and of
the utmost reprobation of the hospital system, and of the greatest as-
tonishment that it has hitherto escaped detection and exposure." With
respect to the charge of clamour which has been raised by the Right
Honourable Baronet opposite against the petitioners on this subject, he
had no hesitation in maintaining that never was there petitions on any
great public subject which savoured less of clamour, not even the pe-
titions on the subject of Parliamentary Rcfbrm, against which he sup-
posed the Noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire had nothing to
allege. He knew many of the parties to these petitions, and he could
answer for it that a more conscientious set of men never existed, and
that they were not actuated in any degree by factious or interested
motives. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who was frequently
interrupted in the course of his speech, then sat down amidst cheers.
Lord J. RUSSELL could assure the House that he had no Wish un-
necessarily to prolong the debate, but he thought that after the appeal
made by his Hon. Friend who had just sat down, and by others out of
the House, he should not be doing his duty in this House, nor to the
Government, nor to the country, if he did not declare that he should
give his firm support to his Hon. Friend, and his most strenuous op-
position to the amendment of the Hon. Baronet. With respect to
the character of those who had signed the petitions on this subject,
and who were earnest for the immediate abolition of the apprentice-
ship system, he wished at once to state for himself the opinion
which he entertained- of those petitions. He believed that the
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin gave no exaggerated character of
these individuals when he said that they were amongst the most moral,
the most religious, and the most worthy members of society: But
he must say that when, in 1833, the measure of emancipation
was under consideration, he recollected that this very party ex-
pressed strongly the opinion that slavery was a crime of so deep a dye
that nothing but the immediate abblition of the practice would sa-
tisfy the ends of justice, and that Parliament was not• authorised to
retain the slaves in forced labour a single day longer. , He (Lord J. Rus-
sell) had a great respect for the opinion of these persons; but, at the
same time, this opinion was one which was entertained by them at the
period he referred to, and which they at the same time agreed to pass
over; and he saw no reason for their reviving it at the present moment.
Whilst he spoke in terms of high respect, however, for the agitators of
this question, he must say that some there were, he hoped few in num-
ber, who took the part they did in this matter with the view chicfly of
injuring those whom they considered party or personal opponents.—
(Hearflicar.) He must say that he considered conduct of this kind
degrading to the great cause it pretended' to espouse, anil to the good
and conscientious men with whom these parties were associated in its
advocacy.—(Hear.) The fact was that he was now in the progress of a
great experiment, and at a period which gave a hope of a happy eventual
conclusion ; but in order to insure this result they must have this con-
dition—that the Colonial Legislatures and proprietors -should act in
harmony tvith those who were afterwards to become the free inha.
bitants of the colonies. It would not do suddenly to deprive the former
of what they considered their just rights, nor to ab-solve the latter all at
once from all the habits of subordination to-which they had been aces's'.
tomed. Various measures would have to be prepared for the perfect car-
rying into effect of the EnancipationAct, and for which they had not now
too much time before them ; but if that interval were occupied in keep-
ing up a perpetual war in the colonies, we should have to thank our-
selves ; if, instead of succeeding in establishing peace and happiness,
we should find that we had laid out a large sum in compensation to pro-
duce nothing but anarchy and discord.—(Cheers.)

House would alter the opinions of some Noble Lords, and that tin re
would be a larger number to vote with him than on last Monday.
The original question for going into" Committee and the amendment of
the Noble. Earl having been put from the Woolsack,
- The Earl of WINCHILSEA objected to the Bill, because it corn.
prised the whole of the indigent population. There was another part of
the measure which he would never sanction—the powers that were to
be given to carry the measure into execution.—(Hear, hear.) He
would contend that the powers proposed to be given to the Commissioners
were beyond those enjoyed by anybody in the State, even by the Crown.
He had a most decided objection to those powers which were given
to the Poor Law Commissioners for England ; but, great as those
powers were, they sunk into insignificance when compared with
the powers contemplated by this Bill. They should also take into
consideration the difference between the two countries. In England
the law had been well watched by the gentry residing in every part of
the country, who had acted as a check, and a wholesome check upon the
powers of the Commissioners. But what was "the situation of Ireland ?
In most parts there were-no resident gentlemen to act as constitutional
guards on the Commissioners, and he feared that unless there was some
other means deviSed to carry out the measure he for one could never
agree to such extraordinary powers being conferred. With respect to
the proposition of his Noble Friend, he should recommend to him to
take further consideration. In any measure, however, he should hope
that in the first instance it would be confined, to the sick, aged and im.
potent. . On these grounds he had voted for the second reading of the
Bill; but he certainly did not consieer himself bound to vote in the same
way at any subsequent stage.

The Earl of WICKLOW was aware that the measure would have an
efrect upon the owners of property, but how could that be avoided ? The
law would require assessments, and assessments must of necessity affect
property. It might, too, occasion emharrasments to the owners of pro-
perty. It was true that the powers of the Commissioners were mcst enor-
mous, most frightful ; but to adopt such a system of legislation they must
give great power.—(Hear, hear.) He was also of opinion that a
greater degree of power ought to be given to Commissioners in a country
where there had never before been poor laws. It was certainly a great
evil, but it was an evil incident to the introduction of any poor law
whatever. The greatest objection he had was, that it contained pro.
visions which might be extended so as to transfer the property of the
country from the one class to the other. He also saw an absurdity in the
Bill, which was that no assessments were to take place for two years.
If the measure were intended to work beneficially and economically it
would be necessary to confine the relief to those contemplated by the
Bill. De titution was a better test than any other that could be adopted,
for if any other were adopted, and the workhouses made comfortable
asylums, let them be as numerous as possible, in the course of a month
they would be filled to overflowing. The present Bill most improperly,
as it appeared to him, divided the assessment between the occupier and
the landlord. Now, lie thought that the entire burthen ought to
be placed upon the occupier. He knew it would be said that such an
arrengement as this would be attended with the rubs of the occupier, but
he would meet that objection by introducing a Clause into the Bill for
the settlement of Tithes to place the Whole burthen of the payment of
Tithes upon the landlord, and to relieve the tenant altogether from it.
IL: was convinced that by follow rig this course they would successfully
accomplish the settlement of these two important questions.
Earl STANHOPE said that those who, in common with himself,
viewed with abhorrence the cruel and unchristian English Poor-law
must feel bound to oppose the introduction of a similar measure into
another part of the kingdom. It was said that tasese workhouses, which,
as if in mockery, were called asylums, were to be made less comfortable
for the inraetes than their own cottages ; but he thought it would
puzzle the ingenuity *of even one of the three Commissioners to apply
this principle to Ireland. In that unfortunate and ill-governed coun-
try there was a greater degree of indigence than in any of the ci-
vilised countries of Europe. The Irish peasant at present lay upon
the bare earth, with merely a little straw interposed for a bed, and his
food consisted of little better than potatoes and salt ; but, to reduce Isis
condition to the test of destitution, he supposed that the Commissioners
would find it necessary to dispense with the straw, and to take away the
salt, and reduce the quantity of potatoes, in order to render the situa.
thin of the peasant worse than it was at present. He had conversed
with various persons connected with Ireland, and he had been assured
that no extremity of distress would force the Irish peasant to enter one
of those union workhouses—those abodes of misery; and if they did
enter them, in some moment of desperation they would be tempted to
destroy them by fire or demolish them by force. This measure encoun.
tered the warmest opposition of every class in Ireland, including the
labouring classes as well as every other class in the country. They had
peen told that this Bill was founded upon the English Poor.law; but,
with respect to the English Poor-law, it might be said as the poet had
said of hell—

The gallery was then cleared for a division—
For the resolutions..
For the amendment..
Majority against the amendment —72
The resolutions were then agreed to.

250
.... ..... 178

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House ad;
journed at two o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 2S.
The Lora) CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Woolsack at,the usual
hour.

NEGRO SLAVERY.

Petitions were presented for the abolition of Negro Slavery, by Earl
GREY and the Marquis of SLIGO,

• IRISH POOR LAW BILL.
Petitions were presented against this Bill by the Duke of WELLING.
TON, Earl Wickaow, and Lord CARBERRY.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
The Bishop of SALISBURY presented a petition against the Eccle-
siastical Commission.

" And in the lowest deep, a lower still."

A power was given by that which ought not to be tolerated under any
free Government. The Bill gave to three Commissioners a most des-
potic and arbitrary power of taxation, and, in fact, it depended on the
pleasure of these Commissioners whether or not the whole landed pro.
petty of Ireland should not be confiscated. If they persevered in this
measure the time would come when tt:e estates of many of their Lord.
ships, as well as of other landed proprietors of Ireland, would be subject,
if not to confiscation, at least to partition. Whilst he opposed this Bill,
no one was more anxious than he was for the enactment of a well
judged and wisely-considered system for the redef of the poor of Ire.
land. Having expressed his opposition to the present measure he
would now state what were the measures which he thought it desirable
should he proposed. He should submit that, if any well-framed measure
of poor law, relief should in the first instance he confined to those who
were incapable of labour, and, instead of appointing three Commis-
sioners, he thought the simplest mode would be to allow each
parish to tax themselves, and the landlords of the parish in cer_
tarn proportion to caner this ohj et late effect. In several in.
stances in Ireland, there was a class of intermediate tenants or middle-
men between the occupier and tine landlo.d, and that, though the occu.
pier paid snore the landlord receiveJ less, aed in all such cases he would
propose to lay the rate exclusively upon the miedh,men. He would
Propose, also, to find employment for the able-bodied labourers. There
were two kinds of employment—first, works of public utility and ad.
vantage; and, secondly, works which yields 1 a profitable return. The
first including the deepening of rivers and the making of roads, and the
Grand Jury assessmtnt. With respect to expense shou'd be defrayed by
those works whictawould yield a profitable result, it appeared, from the
Reports of Commissioners, that one.fousth of tlfe surface of Ireland was
uncultivated; and he would propose, by a large and libsral issue of Ex-
chequer bills, to bring these lands into cultivation, and thus to give em.
voyment to a large portion of the population who were now in a state of
indigence. He had no hope that they would imelrove this Bill in Corn.
mittee, and therefore he would support the motion of his Noble Friend.
Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY.thotieht that this was a very in-
convenient time to press the present motion. Should his Noble Friend,
however, persevere hi his motion, perhaps the Noble Marquis who in.
tended to more an instructions to the Committee would not take the
sense of the Heuse on that motion before going into Committee, but (as
we understood the Noble Lord) would move it in another form in the
Committee. If, however, the Noble Marquis would take the sense of
the House on his motion he would feel bound to vote in support of the
resolution which the Noble Marquis intended to propose.
The. Earl cf MANSFIELD viewed the introduction of a measure of
poor laws into Ireland, a country where a poor law was altogether un.
known, as a proceeding that would require the greatest caution and cir-
cumspection. The measure before them had now advanced to that stage
when it was propbsed to consider it in Committee, and perhaps to those
who concurred iti the principle of the measure it might be desirable to
go into Committee, that they might endeavour to effect those improve-
ments in the details of the measure which they thought desirable. But,
for his part, he could not consent to go into Committee on the Bill, as he
had formed a decided opinion that it was not prudent to introduce a poor
law into Ireland.
The Duke of WELLINGTON would submit to their Lordships that
having given the Bill a second reading it was expedient that they should
allow it to go into Committee. That would be the proper place to cots.
shier all the objections that could be made to particular clauses of the
Bill. In Committee such amendments as were fit and desirable to be
made could be effected, and they would have besides an opportunity of
re-considering the Bill again in its future stages. He admitted that the
Bill might be defective, that many of its clauses might be highly objec.
tionable, but the proper course would be to consider those clauses in
Committee, where they could alter and amend them, or reject them
altogether and •substitute others. He would submit to those who cp.
posed this measure, but who yet admitted the necessity of applying sore
remedy t , the state of the destitute poor of Ireland, that it was incumbent
on them to prepare some measure for the same object, and to
submit it te Parliament in the course of the present session. There was
IRISH POOR LAW, a measure in circulation which was understood to have been proposed
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee on this Bill, by a former set of Commissioners, and their Lordships, if they liked,
Earl RODEN rose to express his opinion on the Bill, which he might consider that measure; but, considering all that passed on that
characterie&l as calculated to produce more mischief than any other subject in the country, and in the other House of Parliament with refer.
that could he applied to Ireland, and said that it might justly be ence to this measure, he thought their Lordships were bound to give it
termed a Bill for promoting penury and agitation in that their fullest consideration. He therefore entreated them to give the Bil 1
country.—(Hear, hear, hear, and cheers.) He considered the Bill fair play, and go into the consideration or it in Committee without re.
highly detrimental to the poor themselves—that it was arbitrary and ference to any party feelings whatever.—(Hear, hear.)
tyrannical in its provisions, and tended to sap the very foundations of Earl STANHOPE said that if the Noble Duke wished, lie (Earl Stats.
charity in Ireland. Higley objectionable was the tremendous power hope) should be disposed to move resolutions explanatory of his plan.
given to the Commissioners, and the interference with private property The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, as the Noble Duke had
which the Bill authorized ; and he should, therefore, move as an amend- stated that this measure had come up to their Lordships supported by a
ment, that the Bill be committed this day six months.—(Hear, hear.) lane majority of the other House of Parliament, he was desirous to refer
In expressing his opinion of this measure, he would venture to say that to the list of that majority, to show what was the feeling in the different
it was as important as any that was ever submitted to the consideration of counties in Ireland with respect to this measure. The Noble Marquis
Parliament. He had felt it his duty not to be satisfied with the opinions was about to read the lists of the divisions which had taken place in the
of only those who moved in the same rank of life as himself—those House of Commons, when he was interrupted by loud cries of " Order
Possessed of property, and of high station—but he had felt it his duty order."
to go into the cottages of the poor, with the provisions of this Bill, to The Earl of MANSFIELD rose to order, and submitted whether
ascertain what their feelings would he if by privation or poverty they anything that had occurred in the other House of Parliament could be
should be brought under the operation of the measure; and he could made the subject of comment in their Lordships' House.
say, from the highest to the lowest, from the first to the last, lie found Earl STANHOPE was understood to contend that there was nothing
but one sentiment, and that sentiment was embodied in the petition irregular in referring to the pulilished lists of divisions cf the House of
lying on the table. It had been his misfortune on several occasions to Commons.
differ with their Lordships' House on some mbst important subject con- The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that as the Hems of Com.
nected with Ireland ; but he could say, from the consequences which mons published not only numbers, but names, in their lists, he could
had since taken place, that he now had no occasion to lament the opi- not see any reason why those lists should not be used by way of argu-
nions which he had formed, or to wish that he had pursued a course dif- ment in
their Lordships' House,
ferent from that which he bad adopted. Great as had been those dif_ The Earl of lIADDINGTON said that although it was quit e true the
ferences of opinion from 18d9 down to the present period, yet he would House of Commons published their divisions, he still did not think it
venture to say that they had never been in a measure of greater magnis would be orderly on the part of their Lordships to refer to the proceed.
tude (always excepting one) than the measure now proposed.— ings of the other branch of the Legislature.
(Hear.) The measure he conceived to be detrimental to the poor them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, as the feeling of their
selves—a measure most arbitrary in the powers which it gave to the Lordships seemed to be against the course he had been about to take, he
Commissioners, and a measure which would sap the very foundation of would not persevere in it.
charity itself in the country. They were living in days of great change. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE considered the arguments urged
No one could tell to_day what the morrow would bring forth, and, be- against the Bill wholly unanswerable, and he would defy the promoters
lieving as he did that they were on the verge of a great crisis, he, for of the measure to show any calculation which could justify it. He
one, would never consent to place the security of his property in the denied Wet the people of Ireland were in favour of it, and he could,
hands of any Commissioners, though they were the best men on the without fear of contradiction, say that the landholders in that country
earth. He was told that no danger could arise ; but he would be glad were opposed to it. 'rho Bill, he contended, was wholly uncalled for ;
to know ghat guarantee he could have of this vigilance of parliament ? but he would not enlarge on these topics, because the House had come
Might not Parliament, instead of putting down this tyranny, aid and to the conclusion that there should be a Committee. To that deaeon
abet it? He remembered in the debate on the Constabulary Bill for he was ready to bow ; but, although he was prepared to go into Com.
Ireland he endeavoured to persuade their Lordships not to deprive the mittee, it was his intention to bring forward the instruction of which
unpaid magistracy of the country of that power vested in them by the he had given notice, and the more especially as he understood it was
Constitution of appointing the constables. He was told that there not the intention of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Roden) to press his
would be that excellent, high-minded officer, Colonel Shaw Ken. motion to a division. He had been credibly inforMed that the introduc.
nedy, appointed to the controul of the police, and that, there. tion of this Bill had led to extensive proceedings for the ejection of poor
fore, no danger could possibly arise. But he would ask his tenants from their holdings. He knew this to be tho fact, and the reason
Noble Friends behind him where was their guarantees now— which had indue, d landlords to adopt such a course was the alarm which
where was Colonel Shaw Kennedy now ? Colonel Shaw Kennedy they felt in consequence of the rating clause, and the uncertainty as to
had resigned, and he (the Earl of Redone would ask, was it not be- the amount to which they might be taxed if that provision were retained
pause that high-minded man would not brook the prostitution of his in the Bill. The object which his instruction would have in view was
office to political purposes?—(Hear, hear.) He would ask the to enable Ministers to consider whether they ought to proceed with the
Noble Earl the rend Lieutenant of Ireland, whether it was not be. Bill in its present shape—whether they should not assist the House in
cause he could not protect his officer, Captain vignettes, from the so altering and modifying it that-it could be safely passed, or whether
Priesthood of Carlow ? The powers to be given to the Commissioners they should not withdraw it altogether, and bring in another measure
were greater than those employed by the Executive, and would their founded on the proposition to be embraced in his instruction. There
Lordships, with their eyes open, say " Content," and allow such a would he time enough to take the latter course even during the present
Bill to become the law of the land ? Another most important matter Session. His strong objection to the measure was, that it would not
was the system of allotment and taxation. There were very few relieve the poor from poverty ; and as to the workhouse test, he must
few ancient resident proprietors in Ireland whose estates were not as'-: their Lordships what right they could have to compel the poor of
mortgaged. Now what did this propose to do I It proposed to rate Ireland to submit to such a test which, after all, would be no test or-
the individual—not according to what they possessed, but according to destitution ? (Hear.) This was the principle one which the Bill w
their rent-rolls. He wouldput a case. He knew a gentleman of high founded, lout it was, in his opinion, a principle which was not only ba
character and of ancient family, beloved 'by all around him, and who in itself, but could never be carried into execution.
was in the possession of an estate, according to this rent-roll, of Lord WYNFORD said that in going into Committee their Lordships
5,0001. a year. Now, out of this 5,000/, he had to pay on account of were only endeavouring to carry
out the principle to which they had
ancient mortgages, family charges, in annuities and dowers to the agreed in allowing the Bill to he read a second time—the principle that
'amount of 4,5001., leaving a net income of 5001. per annum. Taking some provision for the relief of the peer of Ireland was necessary. His
the rate of es. in the pound the Pound this individual wool be ruined object in wishing the House to go into Committee was simply to aster.
at one fell swoop. This might be he wbuld admit, an isolated case, but tain, if Possible, what the nature and extent of that relief was to be ;
he knew it to be a real one, therefore he cited it to their Lordships. but farther titan this he did net mean to go, for there were many parts
sew not to be liable to rate
te land; bu with
such respect
a ect
pro.t o
Having said that much, and having- discharged his duty to his e°nsei. of the measure to which he had strong objections. It might be descry.
mice, he would move that the word " now" be left out, for the purpose ing of consideration whether mortgages 'ou
of having inserted the words "this day six months."
as well as the owners nd
Earl FITZ WILLIA el would put it to the Noble Earl whether it denying relief to time able-bodied,
aall leh could say
was,
that
would not be possible to devise seine other mode of obtaining his object penal
win his opinion, were the able-bodied menas most unjust, for, occupiers6l
f
by amending the Bill so as to render it better adapted to the people unable to obtain employment, they were as poor and impotent in every
of Ireland ?
respect as any other class of the destitute that could be named.
I The Earl of RODEN had some hope that what he had addressed to the 1 The Marquis of CLANRICARDE should move, by way of amend.