The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-13 00:00:00

...Alb - ''': Y

THE SUN, LONDON,

The first amendment, for the insertion o' word,
'• or ti ias nab'e practices," flaying been pu',
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL sa d he mild not ce-
-1 ede in that amendment, for it was a', variance with the
principle of the Bill, which the House had alrec.cly
Lffirraed. His Hon. and Learned Fr:end sought t..) eon-
tiuue—not the Act of last session—but an entirely Oil.
fcieut Act. But the measure of last session was framed
in strict conformity with former precedents; and it ap-
-1 eared to him (the Attorney-General) that it was
better they should adopt the exact words of former Bill;
suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, rather than that
they should, by agreeing to a new measure, open the
door to doubt and litigation without the control of pre-
%tout; practice. He felt bound to oppose the amendment..
because it was Lit variance with the principle of the Bal,.
and because it was contrary to the known practice of
Parliament.
The Committe then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... ..• -.• 12
Against it ... ••• ••• 79
Majority against the amendment —67
The re -ncltr ,ts of Mr. Arista), were then

...emaining amendments of fur.
regatived without a division, and the clause was ordered
to stand part of the Bill.
The second clause having been put,
Mr. ANSTEY moved the omission of the clause. He
thought it would be unreasonable and unjust to confer on
the Lord-Lieutenant the power of selecting any place. he
might please as a goal for carrying out the object of the
.Act, because a person might by that means be removed
to a part of the country where he would have no oppor-
tunity of entering into communication with his friend,
or of preparing his defence.
The motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
negatived without a division, and the clause was agreed to.
The third and only remaining clauso was also adopted.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL then moved the insertion of a
Clause to the following effect: —" Provided always, and
be it enacted, that nothing contained in this Act shall
Le construed or taken to warrant the arrest, committal,
or detainer of any person for procuring or seeking to
procure, in a legal and constitutional manner, the hold-
ing of meetings to petition Parliament or address the
Queen, in accordance with the law and constitution, or
for attending or taking part in the proceedings of such
meetings."

Sir G. GREY would not waste the time of the Com-
mittee by again entering into a question which had al-
ready been decided after a discussion which occupied two
hours, when the House rejected the same motion in the
shape of an instruction to the Committee.
Mr. BERNAL said a question of form was also in-
volved in the motion, namely, whether the clause moved
by the Honourable Member came within the scope of
the Bill.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said, unless the Chairman should
absolutely divide against him, he would divide the Com-
mittee. However, if the Right Honourable Baronet the
Secretary of State for the Home Department would an-
swer one question plainly, he would withdraw the
motion. Wasit or was it not the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to prevent the agitation for the re-
real of the union? He did not speak of the Repeal As-
sociation in particular, or any agitation which he (Mr.
J• O'Connell) might originate, but did they mean to in-
terfere so as to prevent the people of Ireland from agi-
tating for a repeal of the union?
Sir G. GREY said, no doubt the Lord-Lieutenant of
Ireland would exercise the powers committed to him as
be might think best; but in adopting this course neither
he nor any other member of the Government would ex-
tend any immunity to those who might bring them-
selves within the suspicion of being engaged in treason-
abledesigns.—(Cheers.)
After a few words from Mr. BERNAL and Mr. HUME,
Mr. B. OSBORNE said it was in vain for the Hon.
Member for Kilkenny to attempt to improve the Bill, but
if he was really anxious to know the practical effect of
the measures on the Repeal Association let him go over
and agitate for repeal, and he would then satisfy himself
at once.—(Hear and laughter.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said no definite answer had been
given to his question, and he would, therefore, take the
Sense of the Committee.
The Committee then divided—
For the clause... ••• ••• •••
11
Against it ... ... 105
Majority ... ••• ••• ••• ---94
The Bill was then ordered to be reported ; the House
resumed, and the report was received.
RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.

The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr- P. SCROPE said the turn which the debate
Lad taken led him to believe that the object which he
had in view could not be brought fairly before the
Committee by taking the debate on the present oc-
easioo.—(flear, hear.) He was not opposed to a vote
for the relief of Irish distress, and he did not wish, there-
fore, to obstruct the vote, his object being to attach a
Condition to it, supposing the vote to be agreed to. He
.I,hould be most unwilling to object to a vote which he be-
;'l'ved to be absolutely necessary in order to prevent
"mine, and to refuse which, therefore, would entail on
the Legislature a responsibility of a very fearful charac-
'
4,
,r, inasmuch as Parliament had recognised the prin-
41e that the people of Ireland should be preserved from
starvation. He thought, therefore, that if any vote
should be come to in that House which should appear on
the face of it to recognise the withdrawal of that right to
relief, and impose the necessity of leaving masses of
People to perish from want, they would incur a heavy
responsibility. To proclaim that no funds should be pro-
'tided for the relief of those who were reduced to the ex-
tremity of destitution woul i be to absolve them from
their allegiance to society, and give them license to plun-
der and commit violence of every description without the
Possibility of opposing any check to them. He, therefore,
for one would incur no such fearful responsibility. He
had seen reports from Ballina and Westport, and other
Places, stating that the paid guardians had already been
tereedto refuse relief to large numbers when it was abso-
lutely necessary, while in other instances many had been
Put on half allowance, and he had private information to
the same effect. If, then, under these circumstances,
they refused relief they rendered themselves answerable
for all the consequences, which he believed would be fatal
nut only to thousands of lives but to the safety of society
itself. lie would not, therefore, bring forward his pro-
Position at that stage, but would move it on bringing up
the report.
Mr. GRATTAN then rose to move the amendment
of which he had given notice, " On motion-fur relief of
distress (Ireland), to insert after the word that' the
words ' the collectors of excise in Ireland be henceforth
directed, and do in future pay into the office of vices
treasurer of Dublin the amount of all Crown and quit
rents, and that the same be appropriated to the relief
of distressed poor-law unions in that country.' " He
complained of the attacks that had been made upon
the people of Ireland, and assured the House that he
for one did not come there to beg; and he believed,
if the people of that country were but fairly treated,
LeY would do without assistance from England.—(Cries
" Hear, hear.") These were the premises he would
14. Y down, and it would be for Hon. Members to say
whether he made out his case or not. Why, there was
quiteenough of money in Ireland to support the people
it they would only leave it there. There were such
items as " Paid to Queen Victoria, 10 gs. ; paid to
Queen Victoria, 20 gs.; Paid to Queen Victoria, 50 gs.;"
l'uct s on ; and tat money and these vouchers were
ling o in Latouche'hs bank. Let teL money not be taken
314 of the country, and there would be no necessity for
their coming to England to ask relief. The objection
rs Honourable Members in that House was, that Eng-
it money should be devoted to Irish purpsses ; but
hero was a case of Irish money lying there, which
here could be no objection to devote to Irish pur
P''ses. When the drummers and fifers of Cromwell
"le over to Ireland, and the London companies, they
bad large tracks of land divided amongst them, for
tin Uleh they paid merely a small sum of Id. or licl. per
ecer, by way of quit.rent; that money amounted to
:'out 70,000/. annually; and although it had been some
reduced of late, it still averaged 50,000/. per annum.
toe
let them come to a proper understanding, and when
tnnn. Members talked of their coming to England to ask
tneney, let them first refund the money which be,
figed to Ireland. Let them only leave the money there
theteae of carrying oil' these crown-rents and quits rents
p, dec
could be neither justice, nor propriety, nor good
Reuse in acting thus, and then saying that the Irish
elen
e to that House as mendicants. He did not think
see
e • Ilon. Member for Tavistock was justified in sneering
7,1 that way at the Irish Members and the Irish people.
xf the Irish landlords only did their duty there would be
4) necessity for their coming to that House to ask for
eJelistanee. The absentee proprietors were the bane of
land, and had left its people in a state of pauperism
starvation. He complained also of the attacks upon
no Irish Members and the Irish people by the press,
h •
ate teh were filled with the most offensive personal abuse
disgusting falsehoods. He gave the strongest con-
r"iotion to those attacks that the forms of Parliament
would allow him. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded
tr read over a long list of peers and gentry of that coun-
Who possessed estates in Ireland, which they rarely
sza Hover visited, and who left the people to misery and
ation, while they abstracted the rents and profits
c' land and spent them elsewhere. Many of these
li,',ernen and gentlemen %sere, he was ready d
Iris to admit,
;;Vlent landlords; but they were very bah land-
coidl; Resident landlords could do a great deal. They
,-1 keep the people quiet. If they wished to keep the
gc"P'e out of the hands of bad leaders let them give them
ti`l'Ltl leaden.—(Cries of "He.r, hear.") He suggested
t lit the best thing they could do would be to impose a
the, ofl° per cent. upon the absentee Irish landlords; if
didD that the people of Ireland would willingly dis-
nse t' pewith their 50,000L—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Le
e ittbers said they would grant it because it would
e last. He said " No;"—it was only the begin-
zneVf a series. If they were to be thus treated as
,fr leant, it would be better for them at once to take
'heir clothes, and come to that House in the old
hu 'ruts that had been sent to Ireland.—(Great
Iref ter.) Whatever concessions had been made to
theitand the British Minister had invariably mulcted
tea e,' and made them pay for it in pounds, shillings,
pence. Look at the Petition of Rights, which had
parnaconceded by Chanles I. only on condition that the
cello merit should vote him a sum of 130,0001. He
cs• ‘4 upon the Hon. Members for Ireland not to be de-
lved and
spurn duped any longer—let them act like men, and
the l the
amounticre.—(Great cheering.) Now, look at
the that was annually drawn out of Ireland
(,nine absentee proprietors. It was stated that the
tekeietie 4,000,0004 sterling annually; but he would
t, lt at 3,000,000/., and, calculating that for fifty years,
drawnl:oth present time there was a sum of 150,000,000/.
out of Ireland. Take the crown rents at an
4e00: of 70,000/. for fifty years, and that would make
lieusl3o4, so that instead of coming as beggars to that
(.110 e, he would take the liberty of telling the Chan-
eon. r of the Exchequer that he would find it difficult to
1"-:Ten° the fern', that there was altogether a sum of
last ?,,.0,000/. sterling taken out of Ireland during the
fifty years, and no mathematician would be able to
12..7 that he had been mistaken in a single figure. He
gated that the Hon. Member for Tavistock, now that he

had and these fites. would Hush for shoor., for the qt-
tack . 1e had made upon tit, irt,ii lie ple. lie tnoug,ht the
Hon. Member was altogether unjustifiable in the charges
he had brought against them; he should be gla lto know
whether the Hon. Gentleman really thought that the
people of Ireland bad swindled the country. Ho cared
little for their 50,0001. that was to be voted that night,
because he could tell them 50,0001. would not do, nor live
times 50,000/.—(lronical cheers.) He thought it better
to speak out and be honest at once. He had never been
insensible to the kindness of England; but when he
heard so much talk of the British Association, and the
large sums subscribed by the people of England, he
would remind them that the whole amount did not ex-
ceed soo,oooL, and that if the tames of the subscriber:,
were lurked over, it would ba found that the greLt bulk
or
rf
relationship them were p ewristohn
Ireland. who
liberalityb uth e 'clumnietttee(d by
l, vr(olr'retriti)e
kiof
dEngl heardan England
ui int
et:cit.-tile
otiuegahs anon of
oi
it
Ireland'sndne and
t distress,he
from the Hon. Member for Tavistock, and he would s •
to him—

" To John I owe some obligation,
But John hath lately thought it fit
To blazer it throughout the nation,
So John and I are more than quit."
—(Cheers.) And he believed, if the accounts were fairly
ablanced between the two countries, Ireland would be
found to owe England nothing. Let the people of Eng-
land bear in mind who it was that really wished to sepa-
rate Ireland from England. It was ono of their own
countrymen—not one of the mere gentry, but one of the
nobility, a high and titled Bishop —the Bishop of Derry
—who rode in at the head of his followers, and said to
the Barl of Charlemont, " Now is the tine for us to slip
the connexion—let us have blood, and blood enough."
" No," said Lord Charlemont. " there shall be no blood-
.

shed if I can help jr," for his Lordship was attached to
the connexion with England, and he, with other Irish-
men, united together in opposition to such a proceeding.
What was the use of this grant? Why, this 50,0001.
would not last the Irish any time.—(Hear, hear, arid
laughter.) Twopence out of every shilling of it would
go to feed the poor, and the tenpence was divided
amongst the officers. There were 131 unions in Irelan I,
and it appears that there were 50 more to be added.
Did they really think that this would do any good?
Why they built the most ridiculous teetotal poor-houses
that could be conceived, which cost from 5,0001. to 8,0001.
and 12,0001. They gave the paupers gardens too, and
so very generous were they in their attentions to them,
that they gave them for their odours plenty of sweet-pea
and mignionette.—(Great laughter.) There was a ridi-
cule accompanying this extravagance that was quite dis-
gusting. In the union to which he belonged, one of the
guardians, who had nothing else to do, pushed his stick
completely through the wall of the workhouse, it was so
very ill constructed.—(Laughter.) In the Colbridge
union they had, at one time, the highest rate of any in
Ireland. In consequence, however, of his having the
advantage of a better resident gentry than other parts
of the country possessed, they were able to get rid of the
Government officers and to support the poor themselves.
To be sure they owed the Government a small balance of
301., which he would be willing to pay them back, for he
did not want their dirty money .—(Great laughter.) He
held in his hand a book called " The Irish Crisis,"
which he was informed was published and circulated
at the expense of Government. He found that
it had got upon the cover the harp without the
crown. Merely such a thing as this was made
evidence against some of the unfortunate Irish
who were charged with high treason. He had pure
chased this book before the Act was passed for the sus-
pension of the Habeas Corpus, for if he had bought it
now it is probable ho would be arrested under this Act
and thrown into prison. This book, however, was
written by an Englishman high in favour with the Go-
vernment. It commenced with a falsehood, and it ended
with lies. It depicted the poverty of the Irish, and
laughed at them for their poverty. He believed Lord
Clarendon to be an honest man, but at the same time
he thought he wa,s very ill advised. The Habeas Corpus
Suspension Act was not wanted in Ireland, but it was
necessary in order to keep their eyes and their ears
closed until the revolution was completed. There was
now a gradual change of property in progress. Their
policy was, first to vilify the Irish people, to call them
barbarians—their priesthood surpliced ruffians—their
landlords tyrants, exterminators—and these same land-
lords they were now endeavouring to sweep down in
one general mass of ruin. It happened that a friend
of his, an individual in this town, had lent 50,000/.
in Ireland against his (Mr. Grattan's) advice—
(Laughter)—and he had never been able since to
obtain any interest for his money.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not wonder at the disrelish of the English to specu-
late in that country, for who would leave his soft dowry
bed in London to sit upon a naked rock in Connemara?—

(Great laughter.) He was not a leader nor exterminator
—he liked the aristocracy—be admired the coach and
six before the miserable one-horse jarvey.—(Continued
laughter.) If they gave the Irish freedom, they would
support them in war or peace; but if they gave them
chains and slavery, they would curse them, they would
hate them, and they would get rid of them when they
could. Now, there was nothing like speaking the truth.
The Irish would act as the English themselves would
act under similar circumstances—as the Norman barons
at Runnymede acted. They ought to tax the absentees,
it they would not send them back to Ireland. The time
would come when they would regret not having done so.
Let them not pride themselves in their vain glory, upon
their wooden walls and their military forces. They
might depend upon it, if republicanism had succeeded
upon the continent, the Irish people would not be left in
their present low and miserable condition. The
time might come when this country would
deeply regret their policy towards the sister
country. There might be a reflux of the
tide when the Irish people would obtain what they
wanted. Whatever might happen, ho should have the
satisfaction of supporting that which he considered more
conducive to the interests of both countries—for he
would rather his right hand to be cut away from his
body than take any other course. He was for freedom
for England equally with Ireland. His countrymen
were born in every way equal to the English, and he,
for one, would never submit to be treated as a slave.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his
amendment.

The CHAIRMAN said he apprehended that the pro-
position of the Hon. Member for Meath could not be
entertained. It was a motion affecting the Crown rents.
It was, therefore, not competent for the Hon. Gentleman
to submit such a motion.

Mr. H. GRATTAN—Her Majesty's name does not
appear in this proposition.
The CHAIRMAN—The Hon. Gentleman will per-
ceive by the terms of his proposition that he intends to
deal with the revenue of the Crown. It is not compe-
tent for any Hon. Member to bring forward a motion
professing to deal with the Crown revenues, unless with
the consent of the Crown, signified in a proper manner.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE rose for the purpose of making
some explanations in regard to what had been said about
the conduct of the Irish landlords. The charg s brought
against these gentlemen were most unfounded. It was
said they did not attend to the poor in the districts where
they resided. The charge was without foundation.
They could not, of course, be everywhere. A man
could not be expected to reside in half a dozen counties
at one and the same time. He himself, when in Ireland,
resided in Westmeath, but he had also property in the
county of Sligo; he could not, of course, reside upon
both, but he felt himself as much bound to support those
resident upon the oue as those upon the other. Ho had
no hesitation in saying that Ireland had been in a great
degree robbed of the benefit which must have accrued
from a resident gentry, in consequence of the system of
government which had been pursued towards that coun-
try. He contended that Ireland had been used by all
the political parties of the country as a stalking horse,
to suit and to forward their own views and interests;
and what he wanted to see was a system of legislation
pursued towards that country which would have the
effect of benefiting its population, and promoting its
interests. Ireland had been misused by all parties. She
had been robbed of her manufactures, her resident
gentry had been driven from her soil, and be believed
that all the gold in California would not place her inde-
pendent. He, therefore, advised the Government to look
not only to the poor-law as regarded that country, but
to take into consideration those laws which it was con-
sidered was necessary for the benefit of the country. It
was remedial measures that Ireland wanted, and did the
Government bring in those in a proper spirit they should
have his support.
Mr. STAFFORD said that he was glad to be able to
discover the grievances of Ireland independent of all
sectarian spirit. He did not, however, see, that the
system pursued by the Government for the raising of
money for the support of Ireland was a right on-. The
continual application of sums of money raised by the
general taxation of the country to the relief in Ireland
was vicious in principle, and unjust in practice. It had
already been fraught with the worst consequences as re-
garded Ireland, and he would not, therefore, give his
consent to a further extension of the principle.
From the information before the House, it up-
peered that year after year the amount of
pauperism in Ireland was increasing, an 1 as a
proof of it he might state that while in the month of
April last there was 20,781 receiving out-door relief,
there was in the month of July, 414,400 ; that, then,
showed the increase of the poor, notwithstanding the
measures heretofore adopted by Government for the
support of them, and what he aimed at was the intro-
duction of a measure which would have the effect of, in
some degree, doing away with this amount of Irish
pauperism and alleviating the distress which at the pre-
sent time prevailed in that country. A gentleman
from Lancashire who had purchased a considerable pro-
perty in Ireland, had stated to him, that in consequence
of the exorbitancy of the rates he was obliged to dis-
miss 120 labourers, whom ho employed daily, and to re-
turn to his native country, thus leaving the land uncul-
tivated and the labourers unemployed, and therefore de-
pending on the workhouse protection. Could the pre-
sent generation boast of being superior to those before
them? or could posterity not say of them that there was
such tracts of land lying waste in 1849, and through the
negligence of Government no system for their reclama-
tion was adopted ? that the labourers, unemployed,
and yet willing to work, died of starvation; end also
that the landlords were ruined because they were
obliged to support those labourers idle in a workhouse?
He looked upon the excuse held forth by_Goverement as
a mere mockery, because it could not be said on the pre-
sent occasion, at this season of the year, that there was
any harvest, and he believed, from the feelings and fears
of the people of Ireland, that there would be a very
trifling harvest next autumn, because there is scarcely
any corn sown, in consequence of the apprehension of
the farmer lest his crop should be seized by his landlord.
Again, he did not see how Irish proprietors, with only
17,000 acres in one parish, while English proprietors had
25,000 acres, could afford money for the employment of
the labouring classes; and he considered that Govern-
ment, as they would not themselves suggest any remedy,
should allow those who understood the wants and condo
Lion of that country to introduce remedial measures for

the l'ere-fit of that country. He • also thought it noces-
z.a..) th.st Government shierld give a detail ef the state of
the twenty-one unions in Ireland, to which a cursory and
very vague allusion had been made from the debates in
that House, and in " another place." The people
of that country would become acquainted with
the Ministerial system, and through such knowledge
public opinion would tell strongly against them. He,
therefore, hoped that they would consider that this
trifling grant would effect very little good, and that it
would not be wise for them to persevere in this course
of proceeding when some specific measure was requisite
for the employment of the labouring classes. As there
was no subject relative to Ireland that the Government
understood better, he wished to know why the Ministers
had not convened Parliament before the Ist of February
as so many unions were in a state of bankruptcy. He
considered that those who have Ireland at heart should
speak out in condemnation of the Government, because
in refeienee to many parts of Ireland the time for di Ir-
beeation has passed by, and that now only was the time
fir action—(Hear, hear)—and not for deliberation.
For how, he would ask, could the Committee
debate and deliberate, when it was known that every
day tended to check the cultivation of the land, and to
sink the most wretched parts of that country in a still
deeper and worse condition. He thought that it was
the duty of her Majesty's Ministers to have considered
that question long before, and to have come to some de-
cision for ameliorating the state of a starving people;
but such, he regretted to say, was not the case, for he
found several mistakes in their mode of proceeding.
First, in the Union of Bailina he found a mistake of
10,000 paupers, which would have escaped the notice of
the House had he not been conversant with that locality;

and, secondly, he also found a mistake on their part of
100 holdings; and thus, with such mistakes, do Govern-
ment come forward at the eleventh hour and complain
that those unions are doomed to death if this House do
not grant them 50,0001. for 414,000 paupers, who could
not be sustained more than six weeks by this
grant. He was aware that the Irish Members could see
that the tide of pauperism and misery was now rising,
and that the present Connaught would be the future
Munster. He would not allude to alienation, because he
did not believe that any such feeling existed, and that
the way to win tho affections of the Irish people was not
to pandar to their faults, but to use every effort to im-
prove their condition by a salutary system of employ-
ment. He did not see that any good had been effected
by the 10,000,0001. that had already been expended on
unproductive works, and he also felt convinced that no
good would arise from the present grant ; and he, there-
fore, thought that the system ought to be changed, for,
if not, the Government would be held responsible. He
considered it very unfair and unjust that Government
should place them in such a position as to be thought not
to commiserate the forlorn condition of the country ;
and he, therefore, felt it to be his duty to rise and speak
against any Hon. or Right Honourable Gentleman who
would put them in the position of closing their
eyes and ears to the misery and distress of Ireland. The
Hon. Gentleman then proposed the following as an
addition to the original motion :—" That the continual
application of sums of money, raised by the general
taxation of the country, to the relief of local distress in

---
Ireland, is vicious in principle, unjust in practice, and
impolitic with respect to the suffering districts them-
selves, as tending to destroy all spirit of self-reliance.
That the Committee cannot assent to any vote of money
for the temporary mitigation of such distress until it
shall have received from her Majesty's advisers an
estimate of the whole charge which will bo requisite for
this purpose. That it is the duty of her Majesty's
Government to introduce, without delay, measures
which may obviate the future necessity of applying to
Parliament for the relief of local distress in Ireland."
Mr. I'LlooßE and Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose at the same
time, and the former gentleman having, on repeated
cries being raised for the Noble Lord, given way,
Lord J. RUSSELL said—Sir, I certainly felt relieved
by the statement of the Hon. Member that he did not
intend to oppose the grant of 50,0001. for the immediate
relief of Ihe distress of Ireland. I own I consider that
the visiting upon the distressed unions of Ireland and
their inhabitants, who are entirely without the means of
support, the censure or indignation which Hon. Gentle •
men may feel against the course taken by the Govern-
ment, would be in the first place extremely unjust, and
in the next place would be visiting upon the unoffending,
the starving, and the miserable, those faults which—if

they are to be censured as faults—are those of the per-
sons who are in possession of the government of the
country. lam glad, therefore, to find that the Hon.
Gentleman, instead of refusing the grant, moves his
three resolutions upon the conduct of the Go-
vernment. But, Sir, with regard to these re-
solutions, I cannot but think that the Honourable
Gentleman has taken a course which can hardly be
defended as consistent with past usage. The first reso-
lution says that in the opinion of this Committee the
application to Parliament for any sum of money for the
relief' of the distress ought to have been accompanied by
an estimate of the probable amount that will be required
for that purpose. Now I say, in the first place, this has
never been done by a Government. I alluded the other
night to the cases of 1822 and 1846. In the first instance,
the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for the Univer-
sity of Cambridge, when Secretary for Ireland, had
brought forward, in the month of April, a Bill with re-
spect to the employment of the people by grand juries,
and a vote of 50,0001. fur the employment of the people
by means of a grant was agreed to. At a subsequent part
of the same session of Parliament, two months after-
wards, there was another proposal for a grant of 100,000/.,
for the same purpose. Then again in 1846, the first vote
of th r House in the early part of the session was a sum of
50,000/. for the public works in Ireland, which was fol-
lowed by a vote of 50,0001. for piers and harbours inlreland,
and by 50,000/. for drainage in that country. Altogether
228,0001. were voted in loans, and 150,0004 in grants
tor Ireland, in the early part of the session. Such
Sir, has been the course of the Government up to the
present moment ; coming forward at the beginning of
the session with a vote for distress as it existed, and then
proceeding to vote further sums according to the neces-
sity of the case—(Hear)—and it appears to me an
obvious and a necessary course. If the Government
came forward and said, " Let us have 400,0001. or
500,000/. for the relief of the distressed unions in Ire-
land ;" why, Sir, you might to be sure send that sum,
but you would have no security that there would not be
a further sum of equal amount asked for the same pa.-
pose. This course seems likewise necessary, because it
is impossible to say how much may be required for cer-
tain districts where distress prevails until we know the
urgency of the case. Now, Sir, with respect to the
union of Ballina the poor-law guardians of that union
state that it is certainly possible to collect the further
rate due on that union, but they add, that in their
opinion to do so would be to destroy the means of
the farmers, to injure the prospects of the next harvest,
to cause the tenants to emigrate, and involve the land-
lords ; and therefore they advise the Commissioners to
allow the industry of the country to maintain the popus
lation as far as possible, by making an advance in aid of
the union, and not conapell ng them to strike another
poor-rate. In May, they are of opinion, that there would
be means of support derivable from the property of the
union, when the rate might be struck, and they had no
doubt would be paid. Would it, Sir, under such circum-
stances as these, be wise or prudent in us to say, there
will be no such means in May; and that, therefore, this
House shall vote a sum sufficient for the relief of that
union fur the whole year?—(Hear.) I conceive, conse-
quently, that according to precedent, and according to the
dictates of practical reason, we have taken in this in-
stance a course which is perfectly justified by the cir-
cumstances; and that we should, on the contrary, have
been liable to censure if we had taken the course
pointed out by the Hon. Gentleman. And yet, Sir, a
vote of censure upon us forms the first part of the Hon.
Gentleman's resolution.—(Hear.) The next part of the
Hon. Gentleman's resolution is, that " the continual ap-
plication of sums of money raised by the general taxa-
tion of the country to the relief of local distress in Ire-
land, is vicious in principle, unjust in practice, and
impolitic in respect to the suffering districts themselves,
as tending to destroy all spirit of self-reliance." Why,
Sir, I think that this is nothing more than a mere
truism.—(flear, hear.) I agree with the spirit of the
resolution, that there is nothing worse than continual
grants of the public money to the relief of local distress
in Ireland or anywhere else; I agree that it is calculated
to make the people improvident, and to destroy their
spirit of self-reliance; I agree that it is vicious in prin-
ciple and unjust in practice. But I must also confess
that there are many cases in which a grant may be all
this vicious in principle, unjust in practice, and impolitic
as a general rule, but which, nevertheless, becomes jus-
tified ou the part of the Government and this House
by the force of extraordinary circumstances. A mea-
sure which is wrong in principle may be forced on us
for the purpose of saving a part of the population.
This is one of that nature. But the Honourable
Gentleman goes on to say that "it is the duty of her
Majesty's Government to introduce without delay mea-
sures which shall obviate the future necessity of ap-
plying to Parliament for the relief of local distress in
Ireleed." Now, Sir, on this subject I can refer
the House to what has been done by her Majesty's Go-
vernment, and what it proposes to do. With regard to
what has been done, let us not omit from our retrospect
that which has been, and is, the extraordinary feature
of this case—that extraordinary feature which, as far as
the present crisis has gone, makes it unparalleled in the
history of the world. That feature, however, has been
entirely omitted by the Hon. Gentleman in his observa-
tions. The Hon. Gentleman speaks of the distress that
has prevailed in Ireland, and which does prevail at the
present moment, as the usual and ordinary distress of
that country. Now, Sir, the case, as I apprehend, has
been—by whose fault, tenant or landlord, I shall not
stop to say—that an immense population has grown up
in certain parts of Ireland, snore especially in those
districts which lie upon the sea coast, where sea-weed
for manure is plentiful and cheap, which population
having no employment upon the land or in any other
manner, were fed out of the small patches of
ground held by them with the potatoes which
they cultivated.—(Hear.) This being the case, for the
last few years a succession of calamities has come upon
them, and swept away the food of this part of the popu-
lii ion. They have had no other employment, and there-
fore no other means of subsistence—consequently there
have been in that period multitudes of persons alto•
gether without food, or the means of procuring food.
Now, Sir, we can imagine such a state of things on a less
civilized state of the world—we can imagine in a distant
country a failure of the food of a population, and two or
three millions swept away, other people taking their
place. But for us to allow the operation of famine to
sweep away and devastate those parts of Ireland where
the people are depeedent upon this condition of things
for their food, would be a course inconsistent with the
humanity of this House—would be inconsistent 'with
the duty of the Government—would be contrary to the
feelings of the country—and would be most shocking
to civilized nations.—(hear, hear.) Well, Sir, in 1847
we made extraordinary exertions to keep the people
of Ireland alive under the pressure of most extraor-
dinary difficulties. The people of this counry, in 1847,