The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-20 00:00:00

THE BUDGET.

Mr. DISRAELI said the House would recollect that
on the 15th inst. the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government stated, across the table, that in consequence
of the debate on Canada, the Budget would not come on
until the 22d iest. The day was not positively fixed for
bringing it on, which was very informal ; and it would
be satisfactory to know if it was the intentinn of the Go-
vernment to bring on the Budget on the 22d inst.
1...,rd J. RUSSELL acid it would be brought forward
on the 22d.
IRISH POOR-LAW—MORNING SITTING.

Mr. MONSELL said, as the two first clauses of the
Bill involved questions of very great importance, it was
desirable that they should be c,insidered when there was
a large attendance of Members who were conversant with
the working of the poor-law, and as it would be incon-
venient for many to attend on Thursday morning (the
day appointed by the Noble Lord), he trusted that an
arrangement would be made to take the important
clauses at an evening sitting.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he proposed, as it
would be more convenient to several Hon. Members
to take the Bill on Monday, and to proceed with it again
on Tuesday morning.
At the suggestion of the Noble Lord, it was then
agreed that the morning sitting should be altered from
Thursday to Tuesday next.
TRANSPORTATION (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. ANSTEY gave notice, when this Bill went into
Committee, that he should move the omission of the
words " transportation for life or a term of years," in
order to substitute in their place " imprisonment during
the Queen's pleasure."
VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.

The Earl of LINCOLN rose to move that an humble
Address be presented to her Majesty, setting forth that
this House has taken into its consideration the papers
which her Majesty has graciously commanded to be pre-
sented to it with regard to the grant of Vancouver's
Island by royal charter to the Hudson's Bay Company,
and is of opinion that it is ill adapted for ,super-
intending the establishment of any colony founded
upon principles of political or commercial freedom; that
it also appears from the papers before mentioned that the
means adopted by the Secretary of State to ascertain
" that the acceptance by the company of such a grant
would be inconsistent with their Charter of Incorpora-
tion" were insufficient; that this House accordingly prays
her Majesty to be graciously pleased to direct that such
measures as shall appear to her Majeaty most suitable
may be adopted to ascertain whether, by the charter in
question, a grant in all respects valid has been made
of the powers which it purports to convey. He said
he hoped he should be able to induce the House
and the Government to adopt a very different and much
more satisfactory course than had yet been adopted with
respect to Vancouver's Island. He had no hostility
towards the late company, but he felt it his duty, however
painful the topic might be, to expose certain acts
to which it had been a party. Colonization by absentee
proprietary companies, so far as the experience of the
House had gone, had invariably failed. The case of
the colony of Virginia was another instance of failure by
a company. After great labour on the part of the com-
pany, and an expenditure of 12,0001,, there were no more
than 600 persons in the colony; while, within twelve
months, after a change in the system, the population
increased to 1,260 persons. The same might be said
again of the ease of Massachusetts which was granted to
a company in 1635, but the non-resident proprietorship
system failed in establishing either that colony or that
of Carolina, which was granted to a company in 1665
and abandoned by them in 1668. Pennsylvania was
colonized by Mr. Penn, who represented a company
in Great Britain, but even there the non-resident
system produced disastrous results upon the colony,
and he believed its merits were ultimately estab
lished by the adoption of the representative prin-
ciple. It was quite clear, therefore, that colo-
nies depended in a great measure for their suc-
cess upon the existence of resident proprietors,
and he was prepared to insist that in the
case of a colony like the present the Imperial
Government ought to keep the matter in its own
hands, and not delegate its powers and autho-
rity to a company. of individuals. (Hear, hear.)
The House must bear in mind the expense which our colo-
nies had involved us in ; let them bear in mind the cost of
South Australia, and the 138,0001. which New Zealand
had cost this country. Though the Treasury might, at the
present moment, be glad to get rid of the responsibility of
Vancouver's Island by an arrangement with the Hud-
son's Bay Company they would find in future years they
would be called upon to provide large sums for its main-
tenance. The condition of South Australia and New
Zealand was doubtless bad ; but the condition
of Vancouver's Island, under the govern-
ment of the Hudson's Bay Company, would
become worse than all. His words might appear harsh,
but he was prepared to show that the constitution of the
country was despotic. What was in dispute in this
case? Not the right of the Crown to part with land,
but the extent of the land conveyed by that grant.
There could be no doubt that the claim of the Hudson's
Bay Company over hundreds and thousands of acres
of territory were totally unfounded, ,laving, never been
granted to them by the charter at all. The treaty of
Utrecht, though it clearly defined the right of Great
Britain to the land, had never granted it to such an extent
as was now claimed of this country; and he contended,
therefore, that it was impossible fur the grantor to grant
to the Hudson's Bay Company that which he did
not in fact possess. Questions had been raised on this
subject which had not been ch cided by law, but only by
compromise. He was justified in saying that the Hud-
son's Bay Company had raised the greatest
doubts in the year 1645, with respect to the
validity of their charter, when they came to that House
for a Bill upon the subject. The House of Com-
mons of that day thought the Bill ought to be
limited to ten years, and on the Bill going
up to the House of Lords, they reduced
the number of years to seven, Who result was the Bill

was not persevered in, and the company from that time !
had never dared to come to Parliament for an Act to
lay down these rights. Having slightly glanced at '
this part of the subject, he would now come to the other
portion of the case, namely, the conduct of the Hudson's
Bay Company with respect to' that part of
the country as to which there could be no
doubt the company had a right.i., In referring
to that part of the subject, he Would not kay
anything of their non-fulfilment of their du-
ties in endeavouring to eff,ct a north-west passage.
He did not think it was necessary to renew the question I
affecting the past conduct of the Hudson's Bey Com-
pany until they had the opportunity of laying their case
before the House. The reasons for conferring those ex-
tensive privileges on the Hudson's Bay Company were
that the mural and religious improvement of the
Indians might be promoted.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hudson's Bay Company, he contended, had neglected
the fulfilment of those conditions of their monopoly;
they had in a great degree neglected the religious and
moral improvement of the people; and they had also to
a certain extent enc.iuraged the sale of ardent suirits.
There we; another charge made against the company
with which he should deal presently, namely, that not
only had cases of murder been frequently perpe-
trate,l by the company's servants and agents, but that,
after some form of trial, capital executions had taken
place within the territory on two_ or these
occasions,
on persons after having been capitally convicted
contrary to the statute to which ho should
by and bye call the attention of the House.
There was another topic to which he wished to allude,
the sale of intoxicating liquors by the company, which
had greatly affected the mural condition of the people,
and been the cause of much distress and misery among
them. If some steps were not taken to prevent the
introduction of spirits into the country, the whole pope.
lotion would be vitiated or destroy ed. It appeared
by a Parliamentary return that, in 1837, 3,000 gallons
were consumed, and that in 1847; ten years after-
wards, that quantity had increased to 9,000 gallons,
with, he was sorry to say, a diminishing popula-
tion, and without any increase in the number of
colonists. The company could not deny this, for it
appeared that they were in the habit of exchanging
spirits for furs and other articles. He had also to allude
to another topic—that the company had omitted
to take care of the religious instruction and
education of the natives and the colonists.
The Noble .Lord continued to read extracts setting
forth the cruelty with which the territory was managed.
One instance was the shooting of . a maniac
without any steps being taken to ascertain
whether ho was or was not guilty. He did
not wish to press harshly upon those entrusted with the
government of. this immense wild territory; but the
acts of violence and brutality which had
taken place ought not longer to be tolerated.
Added to the complaints he had alluded to, there had
been complaints of the colonists themselves of the pre-
vention of emigration by the Hudson's 'Bay Company,
and their system of monopoly alien prevented the mer-
chants of Great Britain and of other countries from
trading with the natives for their furs and other articles
of commerce, thereby reducing those natives to the ne-
cessity of selling at any price that they wished to givs
them.--(Hear.) When he read the evidence of Mr. G.
Thompson, which states that the people of Canada, on
the frontiers of this company's territory, carry on
free commerce, and obtain tenfold greater prices than
those who are under the company, he asked the House•
did not such proceedings strongly savour of robbery ?
He admitted that it might be necessary for the com•
pany on some occasions to try men for petty crimes.
though against the law, but for capital ones to send
them to Canada. Yet he did not thank that the excuse,
on the part of the company's servants, that they put
those natives to death in self-defence, was sufficient of
satisfactory. They had never complied with the article:,
of their charter, because by that . they were bound to
exert themselves to find the north-west passage, to pro
pagate religion by the introduction of missiona-
ries, and to advance the interests of the na
tives by every just and legitimate means, such
as colonization, instruction in religion and morality.
and to give a fair price for their article of com-
merce, none of which they ever acted up to.—(Hear.)
He would observe incidentally, that it was proposed by,
the Government to establish proper tribunals for the die
administration of the law. Ever since the transfer of
the Red River settlement the greatest dissatisfaction had
prevailed. The enormous freights which were charged
to the colonists stood materially in the way of improve
ment, and prevented the spread of anything like com-
merce. In page 45 of the last papers would be found
the copy of a land deed, which every colonist, except
those of the Red River, were required to sign, before he
could enter into any farm, notwithstanding the extrava-
gant price he was obliged to pay for it. He would say
no more of that deed, except that its operation was to
make the colonists as completely the serfs of the
Hudson's Bay Company as any process could
render them, and the company itself totally unfit to
be entrusted with any operations of colonization. It
was impossible to answer this, and many other charges
against the company, whose proceedings he was con •
fident the House would never sanction. The Hudson's
Bay Company actually levied an arbitrary, and, as
he maintained, an illegal taxation. From a work writ-
ten by one of the company's servants, and entitled
the Life and Travels of Thomas Simpson, he would
point to a letter from the author to his brother, which
stated, in broad terms, the nature of the authority
exercised by the company over the land colonist'.
Lord Elgio, in speaking of this subject, after making
inquiry into the facts, said he thought it was a matter
much to be regretted that a jurisdiction so large, and
exercised by British subjects at so great a distance,
should be totally removed from the surveillance of the
home Government, and that public opinion should be
altogether excluded from it. That repert (If Lord Elgin
might be takeu as establishing conclusively these com-
plaints against the Hudson's Bay Company. The re.
port of Colonel Colwell had been promised for some
time, but it did not appear amongst the papers, and Earl
Grey stated that he had nut thought it necessary to await
the report of that Gallant Officer. With regard to the
means of knowledge possessed by Colonel Crofton, as
much weight would no doubt be placed upon his report,
he would ask the House how it was possible that that gen.
tleman, quartered for a short time on the outskirts of a ter-
ritory exceeding in magnitude the whole ofEurope, could
form an accurate opinion upon charges which ex tended not
only over the whole territorial possessions of thelludsou's
Bay Company, but also in the vast country to the west
of the Rocky Mountains, over which they reigned su-
preme. At the risk of wearying the House, he would
show how many and how great were the discrepancies
between the opinions of Colonel Crofton, Major Griffiths,
and other officers, upon the very same questions, arising,
no doubt, from the circumstances which he had, ust de-
scribed to be those under which these observations were

made. To point out a few of these discrepancies, he would
mention that the first of these officers had described seve-
ral rigid regulations of the Hudson's Bay Company for-
bidding the sale or barter of ardent spirits; whilst the
second stated that the company had very liberally allowed
their introduction. With regard to the increase of the
tribes, Colonel Crofton inferred from the ordinary
trading lists of the company, prepared for the purpose
of regulating the supply of couamodi ies to the popula-
tion, that because the number of natives that traded
with the company was greater than it was when the
North-west Company was incorporated, therefore the
population must have increased since that event. The
fact was the reverse. Then,on the subject of religious
instruction, whilst one of these authorities de-

Glared that there were places of religious wor-
ship and instruction in the setilement, it was expressly
stated by an American missionary, and also by the other,
that there was not a single Prot( stew, misaiottary to be
found westward of the Rocky Mountains. There might
be Hon. Gentlemen in that House who would say that
religion in the island was not confined to the Church of
England. He deeply regretted that the Church of
England bed not received due facility for encourugieg
the spread of the Christian religion in the colony and
throughout the whole of the vast continent. There was
at that moment but one Wesleyan missionary. With
respect to education, let them refer to the work of Sir
George Simpson, and they would find that of the
charges for its promotion tour-firths were borne by the
religious and charitable, and the renriiiiitig fifth by pour
persens, having 15s. a week ; but not one penny, ac•
cording to Sir George Simpsoe's book, was paid
towards those charges by the Hudson's Bay Company
—not one penny was paid by the company for the
purpose of education throughout the whole of the vast
continent, in which they had so great an interest.
He thought, on referring to the charges he had
made, that there were many Members in the House
who would concur with him, that the retures made by
the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Depart-
ment (Lord Grey) were far from satisfactory. He did
not mean to say that every charge metie against the
company would be sustained; but this he would say,
that as yet they were not disproved. Ile thought he
had shown in a clear and conclusive manner that the
Hudson's Bay Company was essentially en anti col°,
nizing company, and that it would be most unwise to
hand over to that company ;the entire control and inte-
rest in Vancouver's Island. The Noble Lord then read do-
cuments in support of his assertion, that the Hudson's
Bay Company was an anti-colonizieg company, with the
exception, perhaps, of the efforts to colonize at the
settlement of the Red River. Such he continued, was
the desire of the company to maintain secrecy with
respect to their affairs and pioceeoings, that, according
to the papers from which he was now quoting, they car-
ried their tyranny to au imposition on their servants not
to keep any journal of their transactions, and in one of
the cases to which he had referred, that of Mr. Dunne,
he had it on authority that that individual was compelled
to burn his journal. Now, fur hanself,ehe hoped that
the statements of such a system of tyranny were a
case
'ere not
correct; •but he thought he had wades
°u
contained
calling for a disproval of the charges
in these papers, to which he had
the fishery interests the were also
Dan)
gr.eeferr. In
referred.
at one time chargeable with the most se s proci edings;
but their efforts to monopolise the whole of the trade
were defeated. And now, he woul'3 ask what could b
to the company Vancouver s
h
the object of granting
land ?--(Hear, hear.) lAn island in which interests
might be established whic would go far to break up the
monopoly of the Hudson s Bay Company, at d put an
end to the evils which he had pointed out to the House. It
was said that the Hudson's Bay Company had an invest-
ment ()off c4oolooulsiooulg, which might be applied to the pur-
poses Vancouver's Island;
and establiihing
but he denied, however wealthy the company might be
individually, and he admitted they were so in many in-
stances, that their capital could be so applied. Looking a
little further into the consideration of this question, he
found that the governor and the magistrates of the island
were to be named and appointed by the Hudson's Bay
Company. He thought thet it would be most unwise to
give to the company the appointment of the public ser-
vants in the island. He admired as much :..s any nun
could free institutions, and rejoiced to see them extend ,ti
to tettlemeuts; but while he 5341 that, he ;must at the

_
same time say, that a free constitution vies not all that
was necessary to a new settlement. The Noble Lord
then referred the attention of the House to Vancouver's
description of the island, from which it would appear
that it abounds in the most fertile tracts of land, the
richest mines, the most valuable timbe=r, rivers teeming
mith fish, and inexhaustible resources; and also to is
more recent and corroborative account of its rich value,
from the pen of a gentleman who, in his communication
he,itated not to say that Earl Grey ought to be impeached _
for handing over so valuable an appendage of the British
dominions to the Hudson's Bay Company. It was of the
greatest importance that there should be a free and in-
dependent colony established in Vancouver's Island. It
was no answer to this consideration to say, that Van-
ceuv,r's bland was at a great distance from England,
and that therefore it was not of that consequence to Eng-
land which its advocates urged; but this matter of distance
()led very soon be settled, for the increased facilities of
communication would materially shorten the distance be-
tvvcen this country and Vancouver's Island. The Noble
Lord then adverted to the advantages of the colony, and
said that these advantages were overlooked by England,
and the control of the colony banded over to the cruel
care of the Hudson's Bay Company. The. Noble Lord
then read a letter from Mr. Ward, the Secretary of the
Admiralty, to the Colonial-office, calling the attention of
that department to the *ffeet of the existence of coal in
Vancouver's Island, and suggesting that means should be
taken to secure the right of this article to the Crown.
The Colonial-office, in reply, said when the proper time
arrived the suggestion contained in Mr. Ward's letter in
respect to coal would be attended to. But what was the
result ? Why, that the whole of the right in reference
to coals and minerals in the colony had been handed over
to the Hudson's Bay Company, to the prejudice of the
Crown. The Noble Lord then referred to the high charge
for land in Vancouver's Island, and asked, Vic was likely
emigrants would give a high price for land in that colony
when they could, within a few miles of it, get land for
ss. 3d. an acre ? But he was told that the charter
was to be forfeited if no colony was to be founded in
Vancouver's Island within five years. Now, if the Com-
pany transferred Puget Sound establishment to Van-
couver's Island, would not that be sufficient to meet the
supposed security in the charter, namely, that the Crown
could come in and purchase the colony from the Hudson's
Bay Company. Now, he contended that the sum which
would be paid them in such a case would be a premium
upon the bad government of the Hudson's Bay Company
of the island in question.
Mr. LABOUCHERE explained.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. He said he was
anxious to say a few words upon the question. He
thought the conduct of the Colonial-office was wrong
throughout the whole affair. He did not blame the
Hudson's Bay Company, for their object was to promote
their own interests. The main object of the company
was to prevent colonization, because their profits were
derived from it as a hunting ground, for the collection
of furs. The course of the company had been mono-
poly, and he therefore considert d this a most unfortunate
attempt to entrust this company with the powers given
to them by this charter. He condemned the Govern-
ment for allowing the company to make out their own
case for the opinion of the law officers of the Crown.
and still more for refusing to produce this case, and the
opinion given upon it by the law officers. This was
most injudicious after what bad taken place with regard
to Prince Edward's Island. It Vancouver's Island sea
not colonized this country would have no port on that
entire coast where an English ship could be protected,
and he therefore thought the conduct of the Government
in this case was most culpable. He supported the mo-
tion, and would willingly go further, and agree to a vote
of condo mnation.

Mr. HAWES had risen rto reply, when, upon the mo;
don of an Hon. Member, the House was counted, and
there being but thirty-seven Members piesent the Rouse
adjourned at a Quarter to Nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 19.

Their Lordships assembled at Five o'clock.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions/
praying fur any alt in the laws regulating the side
of beer ; also petitions praying for a restoration of 10'
cultural protection ; also petitions against the Perlui.l'
mentary Oaths Bill.
The, Earl of WARWICK presented petitions praying
for an import duty on corn ; also a petition praying for
the extension of county courts.
HIGHWAYS ANNUAL RETURN BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
EXPLOSION IN COAL MINES.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY recommended the
appointment of a Commission to investigate the merits
of the invention of Mr. Gurney rather than the non'
tinuance of the Committee. He was convinced the Com-
mittee could not conduct the inquiry satisfactorily, and
he doubted the power or ability of the Government
to
Interfere effectually below the earth in coal mines. r
Lord W HARNCLIFFE regretted that the name (,);
the Noble Marquis was not on the Committee, and won't
have no objection to the name of the Noble DiarqUie
being al•ded.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said it was ne•
cessary a motion should be made to that effect.
The subject then dropped.
GRAND JURY CESS BILL.
On the motion of Earl GRANVILLE, this Bill was
re td a second time.