The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-12 00:00:00

DUBLIN COMMITTEE.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in consequence of
the evidence before the House of Commons not being in a
fit state to lay before the House, withdrew his motion
upon this sulij•ct, of which he had given notice for to-
day.
The Marquis of SALISBURY wished to know from
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether
he was prepared in consequence of the information he had
received to acquit the High Sheriff of Essex of any blame
in the case of a convict of the name of S•erne
who having received a reprieve was not informed of it for
several days.
Viscount MELBOURNE felt surprised at the question
of the Noble Marquis, but if the statements he had re-
ceived were correct, he had no hesitation of acquitting him
of all Warne.

The House then Nytnt into Committee (Earl Shafte,e-
huly in the chair), when the Ecclesiastical Living's Bill
was committed pro forma.

FRAUDULENT CREDITORS' DILL.

Lord WYNDFORD, in movin; the third reading- of
the Fraudulent Creditor's Bill, repeated the observatiens
which lie made on the subject on t'se second reading hie
said that after an experience of forty years, he must say,
that our laws between debtor and creditor were ex-
ceedingly defective. As they stood at present, after
aereditor had got judgment, the debtor might go int)
prison, and defy his creditor for any indefinite pe-
riod, and at the same time be in possession of three
times the amount of his debts, as our laws gave
no power over property such as money in the funds.
or debts due by third parties to the debtor. For
this he saw no remedy but bankruptcy to he
declared against the parties as provided by his
Bill. Another class of debtors against whom
the present laws affhrded no remedy, were those who went
abroad. To remedy that, he proposed that after 3 months'
notice in the Gazette, and the practices not appearing
they might be declared bankrupt and their property dis.
tributed under those laws for the benefit of the creditors
generally.
(LEFT SITTING )

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Auausr 11.

( Continued from our Second Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. STANLEY did not consider that any mea-
sure connected with hie Majesty's Government was
involved in the printing of the petition, but. he ob-
jected to it on the ground of its stating that tie whole
body of the yeomanry of Ireland were
.waiting loran op-
portunity or pretext of murder to convey their regent-
merit against the Catholics of Ireland. lie considered that
an expression to which the House ought not to give
publicity. If however he found the general feeling of the
House was in favour of printing the petition, after hav-
ing stated what be had done, he should not object to it,
and would not press the House to a division.
Mr. GRATTAN was in favour of the printing of the
petition, and regretted that there were objections made to
it by the Right Honourable Secretary fur Ireland. He
considered the calling out of this corps a most injudicious
course, and one that had never been adopted by any Mi-
nistry in former times. It was, inhis opinion, an experiment
fraught with danger, and one that ought never to have
been tried. If the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireltnd
Wished
to stop the discussion of the question relative to the
repeal of the Union, he must do it by constitutional means,
or he should not have his support.
[During this speech Riunmohun Roy was introduced be-
low the bar ; hi: appearance excited great curiosity.]
Sir ROBERT INGLIS opposed the printing of the
petition, considering the language of it actionable in a court
of law.
Mr.LAMBERT denied that there was any riot at New-
townbarry, and observed that if the prayer of the petition
was not complied with, the mo,t lamentable results would
fallow. fir did not mean to bring any charge against
the Irish Government, but he did not think proper enquiry
had been made as to the character and rank of the inili•
viduals into whose hands arms had been put ; otherwise,
he was sure that no arms would ever have been put into
the hands of this regiment of yeomanry.
Mr. BODKIN considered that if it were the wish of the
Irish Government to ensure the peace of Ireland, the best way
to begin it, would be to disarm this yeomanry corps. The
Hon. Secretary for Ireland had said that this was one
of the most loyal corps on earth, and he knew not on
what foundation such a statement could have been made.
Their loyalty had not been proved—their indiscretion had
been demonstrated.
Mr. STANLEY denied that he had ever used such an
expression. He had said he would not allow any yeo-
manry corp., or any Orangemen, or any set of individuals,
to lay claim to exclusive loyalty. Ile did recollect, on one
occasion, in speaking of this corps, be hid said he (lid not
think their loyalty was to be disputed, whatever be
might think of their discretion. That was the utmost
extent to which he had ever gone in their favour.
Colonel PERCEVAL regretted the lOss of life that had
taken place at Newtownbarry as much as any iudividual,
but be certainly thought that thin yeomanry corps bad
been unjustifiably aspersed. The Grand Jury had
found bills of indictments for manslaughter against
some of them, but-yet the individuals who called them-
selves aggrieved had not thought fit to prosecute
for the minor offence. Here then was much serious
ground of complaint against the yeomanry. In the
province to which he was attached there were only
three regiments, while in the provinces from which some
of the gentlemen opposite came, and who had exclaimed
so much against these men, there were not less than fif-
teen regiments of the line.
Mr. BLAKENEY said the yeomanry of Carlow were
composed of as bad a description of persons as any that
could be found, and that was the corps that so gloriously
distinguished itself at Newtownbarry. One of them, when a
prisoner, was brought before him, in his character
of a Magistrate; that person was dressed in a ragged frieze
coat, and did not appear to be more than Hi years of
age. He would like to know who made such a youth as
that one of the corps of yeomanry? The lion. Member
was proceeding to describe other corps, but was interrupted
by cries of " Oh !" and murmurs. He, however, persisted
amidst much noise, to state that of one corps of sixty
men, many of them whom he named were sheep-stealers,
pick-pockets, and persona guilty of other crimes.—(Loud
cries of " Order 1")
Sir R. INGLIS rose to order. He said if the proceed-
ings of that House were confined within its own
wails he would not object to the statement of the Hon.
Member; but as there were means by which those pro-
ceedings became known to the public, he submitted whe-
ther the lion. Member ought to attach crime 'to persons
who were not present, and could not defend themselves?
Mr. BLAKENEY proceeded to state that the people of
Ireland had been in a state of rebellion, and that had it
not been for the exertions of the Roman Catholic clergy
that country would net he in a state of war.
Lord KILLEEN maid that he belonged to a county
where there were but few yeomanry, and those he always
found extremely well conducted. He put it to the House

whether this question had not now been proti acted long
enough.—(Cries of " Hear, he )r, heir.") Ile wished
now to put a question to the Right Ilon. Gentleman
(Mr. Stanley). About three weeks ago he heard the Right
lion. Gentleman say, that the delivery of arms to the yo-
manry was then suspended. Since that period he had seen
from the neWsp 'pets, that arms bad been distributed
in sonic particularly in Wexford, and he found also
from the Dublin Gazette that on the 2d of August yeo-
manry bail been appointed. lie wisliel to whether
this was true, and also whether it was the intention
of Government to increase the yeomanry force?

Mr. STANLEY said it was the intention ofGavernment
to suspend, for the present, the issuing of arms, and
all that bad been issued since, the orders were
given had not been issued by the Government, bet by
the Commanders of the different corps to the men, having
been previously issued by the Government to the Commander.
With regard to the other put of the question, he could
state that it was sot the in'ention of Government at
present to increase the yromaary force. It was
true that within 3 shot t time vacancies had occurred in
some yeomanry corps which hail been filled up.
Mr. WY SE would only refer to the presence and effi •
cieney of the regular mili-ary at Waterford and Clare
elections, where it was proved that they had done more to
preserve peace i,y kind words than the y eornanry by their
bayonets. Let Ministers hearken to the adviee of their red
friends, not from this or that s.,ction of the county,
but throughout Ireland, and then they should nut need
to tremble for its faithful allegiance to England,
but England and Ireland, firmly united, would be one
in reality as well as in name—a blessing which was, how-
ever, only to be obtained by equal justice being impartially
distributed.—(Cheers.)
Mr. LEFROY protested against the waste of time, ob-
serving the question was not touching the existence of the
yeomanry, but about the printing of a petition.
Mr. WALKER inveighed against the yeomanry as a
fuce undisciplined and dangerous.—The petition was or-
dered to be laid upon the table.
Sir RICHARD MUSGRAVE then moved that the pe-
tition he printed.
Mr. STANLEY had before stated the grounds on which
he haul funned his opini,n with respect to this petiticn. lie
should certainly object to the printing of it, but he did not
think it of safficient importance to divide the House upon
the question.
Mr. CRESSET PELHAM said, that the petition re-
ferred to a subject which was under consideration in ano-
ther quarter.
After a few words from Sir G. WARKENnmit,

Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the House would not be
divided upon the subject of this petition. If the Hon.
Member knew the p: cent state of Ireland he would not
object the printing of the stat,ments in this petition.
If it teas not printed, it would turn the Irish from hope
into despair, and instead of three or four petitions, the
table would be covered with thousands. It was his anxious
desire that the people of Ireland should look to that House
alone for redress. The matter was of no trivial importance.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY should certainly oppose the
printing of this petition. Fnim the lung experience he
had had of the yeomanry, he dal not believe that they de-
served such imputations as he found contained in a part of
this petition. That petition declared that there existed in
the minds of the yeomanry towards the fright Catholics,
"sentiments of bitter and inveterate hostility, which were
always ready to manifest thermelves, and which Feiz up
a petty tumult as a pretext for murder." He repeatet his
objections to such language.
Lord ALTHORP said, that the words in which the
subject of the petition was conveyed to the House, as well
as the nature of the petition itself, placed the Government
in a difficult position. It was perhaps, true that the print-
ing of the petition would be likely to produce irritating
feelings among sonic classes of people in Ireland, and it
certainly ought to he the wish of every 11Ieml•er of that
House to do what he could to soothe the feelings of the
different parfes there.—(Hear, hear.) If they were to
print the petition, they should be the means of giving
publication to the sentence which they had just beau!
read ; and if they were to refuse to print the petition, they
should be irritating the feelings of the people already
enough excited by the affair at Newtownbarry. Seeing
the difficulty by which they were met on either hand, he
should certainly wish to avoid taking a distinct course
either way. He should, therefore, suggest to the Hon.
Gentleman the propriety of withdrawing his motion.—
(Hear, hear, liesr.)—lf he were obliged to give his vote
on the question of printing this petition or no., he should
take what he considered at hest but as a balance of evils.
Atter the petition had been presentees—after it bad been
received by the House and ordered to lie on the table, he
must say that he frit very unwilling to say that it should
not be printed ; but still he thought he should be right in
saying, that there would be a less chance of creating irri-
tation in saying that it should not than in swing that it
should be printed ; and if, therefore, the question was put
to the vote, he should certainly oppose the printing. But
he must repeat, that he should regret the necessity of
giving a vote on the subject.
Lord DUNCANNON should certainly vote in favour of
the motion.

Mr. HUNT was also in favour of printing a petition
which contained so serious a cause of complaint as this.
Mr. SHELL said the question was, whether the House
would irritate a class of yeomanry, or offend the people of
Ireland ? Who were the authorities on one side and on
the other ? First, there was the lion. Baronet, the Mem-
ber for Waterford, a m in of high character, and a gentle-
man whose opinion was of importance. Opposed to him
was the Right Hon. Secretary Ix Ireland, a gentleman of
first-rate Parliamentary reputation, but who could not
possibly be equal to the Hon. Baronet in his knowledge of
the feelings of the Irish people. Then came the Member
far Dundalk—he gave utterance to that Hon. Member's
name—he thought it would not be necessary to add a
comment.—(A laugh.) Then came the lion. Members
for Donegal and Enniskillen ; and lastly, there was the
Noble Lorl the Member for the county of Kilkenny—a
gentleman who, if not actually a part of the Government,
was so linked with them as to be considered a portion of
the Government. What did I e say? Why, that the
petition ought to be printed—that the Government
should, in fact, learn how to steer the vessel of the
State in a different course, and raise their eye to a better
and more fixed star than they had hitherto taken as their
guide. Under these circumstances, where was the choice
of authority? Was it not greater in favour of printing
the petition than against it ? lie asked the question of
the Government, and he put it as a single Irish Member—
who had coincided with them in thinking that this peti-
tion ought not to be printed ? The gentlemen on the
other side of the House. He warned the Government not
to be induced to accept their alliance, What, would the
Government select them in preference to their friends? Ile
warned them not to do urged them to reply to their
new
" Your praise is censure, and your censure praise."
Their new supporters would embrace them, but to hug
them to death. lie called on them in the name of Ireland,
and of the Irish people, not to be afraid of offending the
yeomanry, for they were enrolled together in bands that were
•in no danger of separating. Let them not fear to offend
the yeomanry, but with respect to the Irish people—he
bad done., he would only repeat that there were eight
millions of agitated and strongly exasperated men. On
these men the greatest blessing had been lately conferred,
and he called on the Government not to mar the effects of
that Phasing by their conduct at this moment.
Mr. BRISCOE thought, that before the House could
come to a proper vote on this subject, the petition ought to
be read. They had heard what would be the consequence
of refusing to print the petition, and he thought they had
heard enough to induce them to pause before they deter-
mined on rejecting the motion.
Captain GORDON must be allowed to tell the lion.
Member opposite that no inan in that House should with
impunity make assertions that reflected, or appeared to
reflect, upon him. No man there should with impunity
titter a sneer which seemed to impeach his conduct, or
class him with those whose opinions were unworthy of
confidence. The Hon. Member, he repeated, should not
with impunity express a charge against him by inuendo.
lie would nut suffer such language to pass without the
rebuke it deserved as unparliamentary, as that which in a
society of gentlemen ought not to be used.
The SPEAKER called the lion. Member's attention to
the concluding part of the sentence he had just uttered.
The Han. Member h id alluded to something, which he
.aid was an insinuation or inuendo employed by another
lion. Member, by stopping short in his speech ; and the
Mernb:r had, in alluding to that inuendo, filled up
the blank in a manner which would have been unparlia.
mentary, and would have deserved the character he had
bestowed upon it had he been infallible in his judgment.
Captain GORDON had understood the purpose of the
Hon. Member to be what he had deacribed it. The Hon.
Member had said that it was sufficient to mention the
name of the Member for Dundalk, and he construed that
observation with the other part of the sentence, to mean
something which he had DO hesitation in saving was not
usual in the phraseology of gentlemen.
Sir R. PEEL regretted the importance, the undue
im-
portance, which had been given to the printing of this pe-
tition.—(He,r ) He regretted, too, the anode in which
the Hon. Member for Louth hail thought fit to address the
House. When he recollected the speech which that lion
Member had made last Session on the question of Reform,

and the dcsite he then expressed (and no doubt very sin-
e rely), that all distinctions founded upon religious diffe-
rences should be for ever abolished, it was with pain that
he (Sir R. Peel) heard the Hon. Member arroga'e to one
l•-etirular class in Ireland the name of the Irish nation.
to the rkelusion of that other, and that important, though
loss numerous caws, the Protestants of Ireland. Ile had
before opposed the printing of a petition which coat re-
flections upon his Catholic fellow-subjects, and on the
same ground he should now concur with those who de-
termined to refuse the printing of this petition, which east
indiscriminate and groundless reflections on a large_ body of
e Irish people. Did the Noble Lord (the Member for
Meath), who had three yeomanry carps in his county, of
whose conduct he had spoken in the highest to ms of
praise—did he desire to give currency to such charges a.
were contained in this petition? It was hardly possible
to believe that he cou•d entertain such a wi.h. On these
grounds, therefore, and on the ground that legal pro-
ceedings were either still pending, or were now likely to
he commenced, with respect to the matter which was
the subject of this petition, he should oppose tae motion
for printing it.
Mr. SHEIL, in explanation, said that the 11:glot lion.
Baronet, with much courtesy, had al!uded to a speech of
his, expressive of his wish for the abolition of all diffe-
rences founded upon religious distinctions, and load ac-
ens 'd him of having, in the present instance, departed
from the precept he then laid down. The Right Hon.
Baronet was mistaken in making this charge ; for he (Mr.
Shell) well knew the diffo'renee between the people of the
Noah of Ireland and a particular class of Irish yeomanry,
and ha was most anxious to make a distinction between
thews. Now that be was upon his legs, he wished to say
something in the, way of explanation to another Hun.
Member. He had never intended to say anything that
could give offence to the Honourable Membo r for Dun-
dalk, and he was most anxious to remove the impres-
sion of offence from the mind of that Hon. Member.
The pause in the middle of the sentence of which the
lion. Member complained, was mole for the purpose of
preserving himself from saying that which might, perhaps,
have been offensive.—(A laugh.) He wound now state
what that was. —(A laugh.) It was this—that in lois judg-
ment, a gentleman is-ho, since he had been in Parliament,
had evinced feelings so strong on this subject, showing no
unsoundness of heart, but a pronene-s to a particular class
of opinions, had, by so dicing, taken away from his opi-
nions the value of authority upon Irish questions. lie
mu-t now observe, that it was aon itt,r of astonishment
to him that a gentleman who was so strenuous in Christian
orthodoxy should permit such a slight matter so to have
ruffled his temper. If, however, he had inflicted a wound
oro the How. Member's feelings Le was anxious to say that
he had done so unintentionally, and he regretted it.
Lord KILLEEN said that he thought the matter of this
petition would be as much puhl.shed by the discussio❑
that had taken place as it would be if the House were too
print it.

Captain GORDON said the explanation of the lion.
Gentleman opposite was entirely satisf,crory to him. Di'-
fering, as they did, upon political subjects, and esp,cially
upon Irish questions, he entertained a high opinion of the
lion. Gentleman's talents ; and he w•as happy to find that
the remarks had proc,•eded from a difference of opinion
only, and was not occasioned by a feeling of a more deeply-
seared nature.

Mr. GRATTAN said that the Howe might print the
petition, without being supposed to be bound by the state-
ments contained in it. He should support the motion.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to kuow, before he gave
his vote on this subject, whether proceedings relative to
this affair were still pending; or whether it was. still in-
tended to bring this matter to a legal inquiry ? As he
was answered upon that question, he should give his vote
for or against the printing of the petition. He waited in
the most confident hope, having the fullest reliance on the
resent Government, that they intended to institute, if
they had not already instituted proceedings which would
satisfy the justice of the country.—(Much cheering.) He
trusted, however, that justice would never b.: so strippel of
her sacred elements, as to he placed under the slavery of
popular opinion.—(Cheers.) He had no doubt that Mi-
nisters were most anxious to communicate British blessings
to all p irts of the British Empire, but they could not
remedy in Ireland by a single Statute, the misgovern.
ment of centuries.

Mr. STANLEY only rose aga'n to answer a question
directly put to him. The bills which had betn sent up to
the Grand Jury had all been ignored, and the parties who
had sent them up declined afterwards to present any ills
for manslaughter. The hills which the Crown bad or-
dered to be prepares! for manslaughter had also been
ignored, with one exception, and when that came on for
trial, nine of the witnesses were in attendance. Five or
six other persons had been hell to bail until the next As-
siz when it teas a`•so the intention of the Ctown to pro-
ceed against the policeman. The relations of the de-
ceased persons had it in their power to present bills for
murder before a different Grand Jury, but they had nut
availed themselves of the opportunity. Upon this subject,
without a violation of private confidence, he might read a
passage from a letter he had received twit days since front
the Lord Lieutenant o! Teel mil, which stated 01.3 his Ex-
celtency " had directed a letter to be written to the Jus-
tices of the county of Wexford, to condemn the late pro-
ceeding as far as related to the calling out of the yeomanry,
and to account for the expre'sion of no opinion and the
adoption of no measures on the ground that the matter
was still the subject of legal investigation."—( Hear,
hear.) On these grounds he bored that the House wou'd
not think it necessary that the petition should he printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL referred to the proceedings instituted
by Mr. Foscolo, the solicitor to the parties, and to the ad-
vice he had given ; and added that he believed the police-
m•an to be a Roman Catholic. At present no legal in-
vestigation was pi nding, and any man who was guilty
might go where he pleased. He trusted that !he lion.
Baronet would press the question to a division, to show the
people of Ireland that they had at least a few friends in
the House of Commons.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAT, was confident not only-
that the people of Leland had a few friends in th.•
of Commons, but that ell its Members were the friends of
Ireland.—(Cheers from all sides.) Under a strong feeling
and a firm conviction of duty he put it to the House
whether it was possible to do any thing more likely to
keep alive animosity in Ireland than to represent it a, de-
pending on the printing of a petition like the present.—
(Hear, hear.) Ministers were anxious that the petition
should not be printed, because the promulgation of such
language was of itself a premium upon agitation. They
could have no wish but to preserve a compose I course,
and to do their utmost to allay existing animosities ; and
they were bound to say that they would not be parties to
an act of injustice—that they would not lend themselves
to the circulation of a mo,t cruel reflection upon a loge
body of men, charged with feelings that could in no way
be fairly imputed to them. Those who voted for the peti-
tion would afford some soiidence that they accorded in the
sentiments it expressed.
. .

Mr. HUMS denied the. it was fair to infer that tilos.,
who voted for printing the petition accorded in its senti-
ments. The fact was, that seventeen fellow.subjecte had
been massacri d—had been murdered.—(lliac, heir.) He
repeated, th it they hid been muniered, Rot only without
law, but contrary to all law—no Riot Act having been
read, and no order by a superior officer given. In Ireland
an unavailing appeal had been made for justice ; the un-
fortun ite people now called upon Parliament to do them
right, and was it fit that a British House of Commons
should reject such a claim, because it teas accompanied by
a few unmeasured expressions?—(Cheers.) He could not
concur in the sweeping charge against the whole body of
the yeomanry of Ireland, but it was not just or wise on
this account to refuse to pint the petition, when that re-
fusal would lead to the most unfavourable inferences in
Ireland. Justice, and justice only, could allay the angty
feelings of the people of Ireland.
Mr. CRAMPTON agreed that the printing of the pe-
tition might prejudice the administration of that justice for
which the lion. Member for Middlesex contended. Al-
though the parties might not choose to go further, Govern-
ment was bound to sift the matter to the bottom, and to
inquire into the conduct of the yeomanry charged with
these discreditable acts.

The House then divided—
For the printing of the petition
Against it `23ti
Majority —l62
CORN LAWS.
Oo our re•admieeion we found Mr. AUNT on his legs,
postponing until a future day his motion on tie Corn
Laws. We could not catch the date he named, but he
hoped by that time the Reform Bill would be c.it•rie.l.