The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-03 00:00:00

of detail; but he was not disposed to bring forward any
general plan bim.elf. He nansf however, say, thet is
ever u ti,ver.inient had a plea to for a plan on such
a subject as the present, it :vas the present Government.
He d:d not chard them as being equated by a bad or
good principle, but he charged them eiiih being actuated
by no principle at ail. lie did nut beli.ve that in re-
ference to this important subject of the Irish poor-law
they had a single arrangement made or a single remedy
concocted previous to the meeting of Parliament, fur there
was disagreement in the Cabinet on the subject., and
therefore, no arrangement could be made, and no
plan or remedy fixed upon; and while, therefore, it
was not the duty of Hon. Members to suggest pluns to
the Government, if there ever was e case where a viola-
tion of that rule could be justified it was the p:eient,
for they had a Government wholly d ivoid of res,urces
in itself, and totally unfit to meet and combat the diffi-
culties which surrounded it.

Mr. JOEIN O'CONNELL said he was glad that the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was not autho-
rised to speak for Ireland, as it would look somewhat
strange, that after coming to Parliament for grants in
aid for some time past, they should now come forward
and find fault with the Government for not placing theca
on an equality, so far as taxation was concerned, with
other parts of the kingdom. The Hon. Member had in
no respect met the argument of the Noble Lord, as to the
impropriety of reducing the size of the electoral divisions.
The Noble Lord had said, were such done, landlords
would in a few years free themselves from the pay-
ment of rates altogether, by banishing the poor
from their properties ; and there was no doubt but
that such would be the result. On the whole, however,
there was little of encouragement in the Noble Lord's
speech. There was no hope given that those compre-
hensive measures which Government had in contempla-
tion would be carried out. On the contrary, the Noble
Lord had given a most melancholy prospect of the future,
for he had said, that unless by some chance the potatoe
should be restored, or the peasant obtain a substitute for
it, in the shape of better food, or that the population of
Ireland should be swept away by emigration, there was
but a faint prospect of the country being restored to
prosperity. But let them do away with the causes
which bad led to the present state of thiugs, and Ireland
would again revive. The extermination system would
never restore it—it had been tried over and over again,
and failed. As to the expedient proposed, he did not
approve of it, but he did not wish to commit himself in
decided opposition to it, until he heard from the other
side of the House what proposition they had
to make on the subject. As yet, he had
not heard of any such proposition, and he
could not help thinking that it carne with a
bad grace from the other side of the House to find fault
with Government in regard to their Irish pulley, for
those on that side had always been the bitterest foes of
that country. He did not think it was creditable to that
House, that when one portion of the empire was in a
state of starvation any difficulty should be thrown in
' the way of affording them necessary relief, even if the
money should never be repaid. He thought that when
England had exhausted the resources of Ireland she was
called upon by every sense of justice to provide all that
was required out of English resources. He could not
forget how unwillingly the paltry grant of 50,000/. had
been coaceded; and he thought it was not creditable to
the House that such a course of conduct should have
been exhibited as they bad all witnessed with reference
to the grant he had alluded to. The Honourable and
Learned Member contended, that under the Act of
of Union, Ireland was fairly entitled to an exemption
from taxation to a larger amount than she at present
enjoyed. The popular party had again and again
said, give back that Parliament which was taken
away from Ireland by the most foul, nefarious, and
iniquitous means—give Ireland the management of her
own afhirs, and she would ask for no grants of money
from England, and would no longer be appearing as a
mendicant in that House. The experiment was by no
means new of endeavouring to raise taxation iu Ireland
up to the level of the English; but the previous attempt
had been a failure, and the experiment was therefore
given up. He thought that rates in aid would destroy
the poor-rate payer, but the condition of these people
had not been taken into aecounr, arid by breaking down
the poor-rate payer they would bo inm easirig the ranks
of the paupers. He thought they woule hear something
about the income-tax from observations that had been
wade by some Hon. Members. Now, lie altogether ob-
jected to the laying on of an income-tax in Ireland. He
believed it would be most disastrous to the country
should it be attempted, for they had no such thing as a
middle class in Ireland, and the distress wes so preva-
lent, that the laying on of an income-tax would com-
plete the ruin of the country. To increase the taxation
of Ireland would be a violation of the Act of Union,
and he was ready to prove it by chapter and verse.
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth
(Sir R. Peel), when he was proposing the income-tax lor
England, in 1842, said that the fiscal ability of Ireland,
as compared to Ireland, was as one to nine. If that was
the case, her taxation should be in that proportion; but
on the contrary, she was taxed in the proportion of one
to four. It would be absurd, therefore, to impose an
income-tax, for it could not be made a source of revenue.
lie was ready to admit that the people of Ulster were
deserving of great credit for their industry, and that im-
posing a rate in aid upon the population would be a great
hardship; yet it must be admitted that the people of
Ulster had enjoyed exclusive advantages—the tsnant right
for instance—and therefore such a rate would fall with
far greeter severity upon the poor farmer in Leinster.
The lion. and Learned Member then referred to the
state of the Irish Church Establishment, and expressed
it as his opinion that Government, without in the slight-
est degree trenching upon vested rights, might obtain
from that source not less than 200,0001. for the relief of
the suffering poor. He next passed in review the evils
of absenteeism, and said that a tax might be levied upon
absentees, which would produce about 300,0001., and that
sum, with the 200,0001. he had referred to, would make
up the 500,000/. which were now required. Let them
not, therefore, he would say, put Ireland under the
operation of a new and ruinous tax. Ile had studied
the working of the poor-law in England, and he was
bound to say that in his opinion it was most unjust
in principle, and did not work well. Poor-
laws would crush Ireland, and were crushing
her, and they were now suffering for the hasty manlier
in which they had imposed poor-laws in Ireland. The
Hon. and Learned Member then called the attention of
the House to the address of the Catholic suffragan
bishops at Tuam, in January last, in which the evils of
the Irish poor law were pointed,out, and the great and
extensive distress that prevailed under their operation.
He considered that the only measure 'or the benefit of
Ireland would be a good lanlord and tenant Bill, and he
felt assured that the House would agree with him in
that opinion if they would only refer to the province of
Ulster, where that system obtains to a considerable de-
gree; but to poor-laws he was strongly opposed, as being
vicious in principle and ruinous in effect; and such was
the general policy of the British Ministers, for most of
their measures were nothing more than patchwork.
Lord BERNARD said that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
J. O'Connell) had asserted that there was no proposi-
tion offered by any Hon. Member on his (Lord Bernard's)
side of the House, but such was not the case. A cele-
brated orator some 300 years ago, answered, when asked
what was to be done, " Do anything, but do not support
the present question." Such he considered to be the
principle of the Irish Members. He considered that if
the arguments brought forward for an income- tex were
just and equitable, let the Government act un those ar-
guments, but let not such a measure as the rate in aid
now proposed be allowed by the House, as such must
certainly ruin that country, arid he should add that one
of the principal reasons fur net bringing on an income-
tax in Ireland was that most of the inconee of that coun-
try was subject to that tax in this country, where it was
spent by landed proprietors residing in England. ll' the
House would look to the condition of Ireland, they
would find that there was at present the sum of
3,700,000/. chargeable on the rental of that country,
amounting to only 13,000,000/. annually. lie (Lord
Bernard) would ask how could that rate in aid be
collected ?—(Hear.) Was it by valuation? No, for
in every union of Ireland there is a different ratio of
valuation. He would refer to the Union of Middleton,
in the county of Cork, which required the commissioners
to allow the collection of the tax to be suspended until
after the harvest, as the people of that union world be
either driven from their houses to the uninn workhouse,
or to a foreign country, for they were incapable arid un-
able to pay the demand of the tax-gatherer. When the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) alluded to the number of
grants given to Ireland, which he with gratitude ac-
knowledged, he (Lord J. Russell) should recollect that
1,000,0001. of that sum was given by the Right. Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), in compensation for the losses
sustained by the corn-laws. Oa the whole, he believed,
that this present measure would be the very instrument
of arousing the indignation of the most loyal people of
the country, the inhabitants of Ulster, and hoped that
tho Noble Lord would turn his attention to developing
the resources of that country by railways, and other such
remedial measures. He hoped, that as Ireland had
shared with England her naval and military glory, so she
would also be allowed to share her commercial glory,
and enjoy happiness and tranquillity, unalloyed by sec-
tarian or party feuds.
Mr. FAGAN said that the distinction he (Lord Bor-
nerd) had drawn between the loyal men of Ulster, as he
designated them, and the rest of Ireland, as a different
class, would tend more to injury and opposition among
those classes than any measure brought on by Govern-
, ment, even the present, bad as it was. He would next
refer to the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. J. O'Con-
nell). I ask him how would Ireland have survived for
the last two years but for her poor-law ? And he would
apply the same argument to England against the Hon.
Gentleman, because to those poor-laws was to be attri-
buted the support of the weavers, and other operatives,
whose trade was for some time suffering, who would
have literally starved but for that dernier resort of
clemency and humanity—the poor-laws. He concurred
fully with the Hon. Member for Rochdale in this, that
as they were bound politically with England, it was the
duty of the people of England to aid the people of Ireland
until the calamity which oppressed them should have
passed away. England was, in fact, more interested in
the prosperity of Ireland than Ireland was herself—
manufacturing Manchester was more interested in the
prosperity of Cork thin Dublin was. Taking that view
of the case, he would say further, that Ireland was rather
the creditor than the debtor of England. Ireland had
been compelled to contribute towards the united exche-
quers of the two kingdoms more than her quota, be-
cause the natioeul debt of Great Britain had increased
so rapidly between the time of the Union fled that of the
union of the two exchequers. When he saw so many
manifestations of the env% iffirigness of the English people
to contribute any further sums to the maintenance of
destitution in Ireland, it was impossible for him :o turn
his back on his perishing countrymen, and he would im-
press it upon the earnest consideration of the Heels°
that they should provide some ready means of
alleviating it. Ho was in favour of this na-
tional rate in aid, but he thought that it was
wanting in some material details before it could be