The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-19 00:00:00

THE CUSTOMS' BILL-TIMBER DUTIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. then rose
to state to the House the course he intended to pursue with
respect to the duties on timber. When he first proposed
the measure respecting an alteration of the timber duties
to the House, his object was to get a large increase to the
revenue, without, at the same time, pressing on the com-
merce of this country. It was also his opinion that the
proposition Government made would have the effect of
leading to the adoption of a better commercial system with
respect to the trade of timber. In endeavouring to effect
this object, he was aware that he was likely to meet with
most powerful opposition. He knew the power of gentle-
men connected with the shipping interest ; and their power
was increased by the union with which they acted. Still,
feeling confident that the proposition of Government would
prove beneficial to the country, he was prepared to meet
the opposition of those gentlemen.—(Hear.) lie knew
that it was made a charge against the proposed measure
that it would take the money out of the people's pockets:.
Now he was ready to admit that whatever capital was de-
stroyed iry the change, so far an injury would be done; hut
if capital was not destroyed but merely diverted into ano-
ther chain 1, the whole operation might be perferreed,
and no person a loser. Supposing that, by the operation
of a law coals from Newcastle were obliged to he sent
round Scotland before coming into the port of London,
• and thus the price of the article greatly increased to the
consumer. But if the Parliament repealed that law, and
permitted coals to come straight to London, placing at the
same time a duty on the article of the same amount as the
expense saved in the carriage, the Exchequer would be
ben,fitted, and not a human being hurt. It was, indeed,
plain that when any at tale was brought from a greater
distance than was necessary, an alteration might be made
which would have the effect of increasing the revenue of
the public, without injuring any individual, provided the
capital employed in-the trade could be as profitably em-
ployed in another direction. Ile was desirous that the
Committee should fully understand the defect of the pre-
sent law with respect to the importation of timber. The
present law either compelled the consumer in this country
to use a worse article than he liked, or, if he used a
better article, the law raised the price of it artificially
against him. That was the case avowed by the advocates
of the existing law. It was avowed that for the &ake of
one class of the community we should raise against the
consumer the price of the best article, or compel him to
use an inferior one. That North AMerican timber was
inferior to the Baltic it needed no argument to convince
the House. It was unfit for many purposes ; and it was
stated, in evidence before the Committee in 1821, that
ships built of North American timber lasted only four
years, while ships built of Baltic timber lasted eight years.
—( Hear.) In consequence of that evidence, North Ame-
ricrn timber was excluded from the dock-yards of this
country, and he believed that in all building contracts
there was a specification that Baltic timber should be
usell.—(Hear.) This was a sufficient proof, he thought,
of the inferiority of North American timber. He knew
it was said, and truly, that the red pine of North
America approached nearly to, if not equalled, the qua-
lity of the Baltic timber. But then, what was the effect
of the existing regulations upon the consumer of wood in
this country? Supposing the red pine of North America
to be equal to the Baltic timber, yet the price of the red
pine before importation was 355. per load, while the price
Of equally good Baltic timber was only 235. The existing
regulations, therefore, in forcing a man to purchate the red
pine of North America, compelled him to pay fifty per
cent. more for it on the first price than he need have paid
for the Baltic timber. The red pine, of which he had
been speaking, was the produce of Upper Canada, and a
great deal of it, besides, came from the United States.—
(Hear.) When gentlemen, therefore, talked of the exist-
ing regulations being a protection to the colonies, he begged
leave to say, that though they were partly so, yet at the
same time they afforded great protection to the produce of
the United States.—(Hear.) Then, on the other hand,
the commercial advantages of the proposed change seemed
to be left entirely out of sight. What was the state of
the question with respect to that point? There was
Norway, in the north of Europe, with a bad climate and
steril soil, which could produce nothing to give this country
in return for its manufactures excepting timber. Canada,
on the contrary, was a fertile country, its climate pro•
pitious, and it produced every vegetable. Why, then,
should we take a bad timber from a country which
could give us in exchange for our commodities other
articles of a better description, instead of drawing our
supply of timber from a country which could give us no-
thing else in exchange? But it might be said, that Nor-
way, while it supplied this country with timber, would
not take our manufactures in return. It certainly appeared
that whatever of our manufactures was consumed in Nor-
way did not come directly from England ; but the reason
of that was, the laws which precluded the English con-
sumer from making use of Norwegian timber. If we took
the Norwegians' timber, they would be glad to have our
manufactures.—( Hear, hear.) It was then plain, that
we excluded from this country the only article which Nor-
way could supply us with, in order to take a worse article
from a country which was able to eupply us with much
better commodities. When, therefore, he found himself
sealed upon to provide for a large amount of revenue, he
did think that the proposition which Government had
made to alter the duties on timber would, for the reason
he had stated, prove most beneficial to the country. That
proposition had met with great opposition, and he ad-
mitted that the opposition it had experienced made him
feel a difficulty in carrying it. He had also no hesitation
in saying, that with respect to the shipping interest, every
possible anxiety would be shown on the part of Govern-
ment to avoid injuring it if possible; but he was not pre-
pared to say that he would sacrifice every other class of
the community in order to support that one.—(Hear.)
He did not think that the House ought to sacrifice com-
mercial advantages merely for the sake of supporting the
shipping interest; yet he should be clad if any alteration
of duty could be made in a mariner to be as little injurious
as possible to the shipping interest. The question than arose
in his mind, could any alteration in the duty on timber be
made, in such a manner as to effect the object he had ill
view—namely, the restoration of the trade to a healthy and
natural state, without injury to any one? In order to put
the House in a condition to judge of the propriety of the
change in the duties on timber which Government now
intended to propose, it would be necessary for him to enter
into a statement of the state and prospects of the revenue
of the country. The House would then be able to judge
of the policy of the proposition which he should submit at
the conclusion of his speech. The House would recollect,
that in the financial statement which he made a few weeks
ago, he had calculated what would he the produce of the
revenue for this year, from its amount in last year, and
had stated his expectation, that the new taxes which he
intended to lay on would bring more to the revenue than
would be lost by the repeal of some others. But since
that period he had the experience of he effect which the '
reductions made by the /I
last year had had on Locking at the amount
:girt Hon. Gentleman opposite in
'one revenue.
f.,
the pre ent year, he found that it exceeded the
-.
'.cerived from the Customs for the first two
months o
of the revenue
ount received durine the corresponding months of last
year
creasing at that rate, he calculated that at the end of the
z
increasing by the sum of 176,0001. If the revenue proceeded

year there would he an excess, upon the Customs alone,
of 1,000,000/. beyond the amount of last year. He did
not mean, however, to calculate upon the whole of that
sum ; but be would take two-thirds of it as the excess
which would exist at the end of the present year over the
receipts of last. Adding that sum to the amount of Customs
of last year, he found it would give a total of 18:025,000/.
From that sum he deducted the amount of the duty on
for ten months, and the total amount would then
be about 17,520,000/. From the taxes he proposed to place
on steam-boats and other things, he expected 75,000/. ;
from cotton wool, 250,0001. ; from the exportation of
coals, 100,0001. ; and from the duties on wine, 150,0001.
These taxes made up a sum of 575,000/, which, added
to 17,520,000/., made a total exceeding 18,000,000/.
He had founded his calculation upon the receipts of the
customs for the two first months of the year, a test which
had been often taken, which he believed was taken by
Lord Goderich, and had always ken found to answer.
Looking at the revenue derived from the Excise during
the same term, he found it had fallen off, hut mot in pro-
portion to the amount of duty reduced.—[The Noble Lord
here went into details respecting the anticipated income of
the Excise, but in so low and indistinct a tone, that we
found it utterly impossible to understand his statements.
Indeed, we cannot pledge ourselves to the perfect accuracy
of the calculations we have just given, but we believe
that the result of the whole was, that the Noble Lord
expected a surplus of 1:135,000/. for the year 1832.]—
If that view of the finances which he had taken was cor-
rect, there remained no imperative reason to force Go-
vernment to lay any great taxation on the importation of
timber for the purpose of benefiting the revenue. But
commercial policy did call on the Government to take
steps not violently but gradually to relieve the consumer of
timber in this country.—(Hear.)—While he leoked on
this question as one of revenue, he was bound to take
that course which he thought would produce the greatest
benefit, and therefore he considered it necessary to in-
crease the duty on Canada timber. But now, when
the prospect of the revenue was more flattering, he •
did not propose to increase the duty on Canada tim-
ber—(Hear, hear, hear)—but he intended to reduce
the duty on Baltic timber, and he would state the
grounds which made Lien believe that the plan he hod
adopted would prove advantageous to the country. He
was aware of the importance of the shipping interest, yet
he did not consider that it should be alone regarded. The
prosperity of that interest depended on the state of the
commerce of the country, and unless that commerce were
flourishing, the shipping interest could not be flourishing.
Some Hon. Gentlemen were accustomed to argue the
question as if the shipping interest were opposed to the
other interests of the country; but he considered that any
rtssulation which interfered with the commerce am! its-
dustry of the nation would be injurious to the shipping in-
terest. The duty on timber in log, coming frost the
Baltic, almost amounted to prohibition; and while from
Canada one-third only of the quantity sent out came in the
shape of deal, two-thiids come from the Baltic. The
alteration which he proposed to make in the duty on
timber, in log and in deal, would, he thought, be advan-
tageous to the commerce of the country, and open the
trade with the Baltic more than at present.—(hear,
hear.) The only points of objection that could, he con-
ceived, be raised against his proposition was, the effect it
would have on the colonies.—(Hear.) He was ready to
admit, that whatever capital was laid out on saw-mills in
Canada no uld stiffer. But the amount of capitol so laid
out was very small in roportion to the capital which was
otherwise engaged in the timber trade ; and even that capitai
might be applied to a certain extent to other purposes. The
lagsoot amount of capita! was employed in the lumber-trade
in Canada. That was an entirely floating capital and capable
of being diverted to other channels, with as great ease as any
oiler floating capital. Then, it was said that the emi-
grants would suffer. But tine emigrants were not em-
ployed in one part of the operation of the timber trade,
beeouse they did not understand the use of the oxe. They
were certainly employed to a certain extent in moving the
timber down to the coast ; but the only reason why emi-
grants accustotned to agricultural pursuits were so em-
pieyed, was the effect of the legislation of this country,
to drive capital into the lumber trade. By taking gra-
dually away the inducement to capitalists to place their
caoital in the lumber trade of Cansda, he hoped to make
them turn their speculations to the cultivation of the soil,
and give employment to the emigrants in agricultural oc-
cupations. He did not belies e that the effect of such a
change could he any thing but advantageous to Canada;
and it was clear from evidence produced at different times
before that House, that persons engaged in the lumber
trade were not desirous of continuing in it. He admitted
that the case was somewhat different with respect to the
southern provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New
Brunswick. The soil there was not so propitious, and
the timber trade was consequently of greater importance ;
but he could never admit that the trade would be destroyed
by the proposed measures of Government. The timber of
that port of Canada was used for the manufacture of certain
articles, and it would always continue to be used for those
purposes. Though an improper material to be used in build-
ings of a paramount nature, yet it had the advantage of
being more easily worked than other timber, and therefore
it would continue to be used for certain purposes. The
Noble Lord here stated certain particulars respecting the
duties an timber, but with a rapidity and indistinctness of
utterance which made his observations perfectly unintelli-
gible in the gallery. The only proposition which we could
understand was, that the duty on Baltic timber was, on
the Ist of January, 1832, to be reduced 6s. per load ; on
the Ist of January, 1833, another Os. per load ; and on
the lit of January, 1834, a further reduction was to take
place of 3s. per load ; and then the reduction to cease :
making in the whole a lessening of the duty to the amount
of 15s. per load. The Noble Lord concluded by submit-
ting a proposition to the above effect, namely, that the
thity on timber eight inches square, imported into the
United Kingdom from any foreign country, should b,,
after the Ist of January, 1832, 2/. Os. per load ; after the
Ist of January, 1833, 2/. 3s. per load ; and after January
1, 1834, 2/. per load.

Mr. WARBURTON made some inquiry of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, but neither the question nor reply
were heard in the gallery.
Mr. ATTW'OOD did not think that the present pro-
position differed in principle from the former proposition.
The measure first proposed went to impose an additional
duty on timber from the North Anierian coloaies, and re-
duce the duty on European timber. Thus protection and
encouragement was held out to foreign countries to the
prejudice of our own colonies; and it was upon the same
principle that the present proposition had been framed.__
(Hear, hear.)—lle differed from the Noble Lord in that
part of his speech where he had laid down the principles
which should govern our trade, which proceeded from the
common error of his school of political economy; but he
congratulated the House upon that part of his speech
where lie explained to the House that there were other in-
terest concerned in this question besides those of the re-
venue. The Noble Lord had referred to the capital em-
barked in the Canadian forests ; and sure be (Mr. Att-
wood) was, that the Committee would throw out of their
consideration every thing regarding revenue, in consider-
ing the policy which was now proposed, of abolishing pro-
tection. The Hun. Member for Bridport bad said, that
we had no right to exact protection for the colonies; but
if we had adopted the principle of protection, there was
no act of the legislature regarding the colonies which
should be held more sacred than that which gave them
protection.—(Hear, bear.)—lle would refer the House
to the report of the Committee in 1821, which went into
the history of the timber trade. It stated, that previous
to 1810, our supply of foreign timber was principally
Wasa e
from the Baltic ports ; but in 1809 and 1810 we had re-
course to our Canadian colonists. What was the object
o
eirteavinend n
uordere
quality
of Ca-
nadian
tNeh
o oi bt ia
in
ct
eificettaihe png a a t
ial
Itnne e trpin oi
,oroohrf to
tt hodre d
eyr: tiy v
et
a ?h T ge r e
ptrire
er.
The duty was protective, and it was intended to be pro-
timber were as well known then as now. It was
not to enable this country to purchase cheap timber, but
in order to guard against the danger which then threatened
us from Europe, and which, the Committee said, as it
might occur at a future period, it would not be proper to
place us entirely at the mercy of the northern Powers fur
the supply of timber, which might be interrupted by the
same political danger. It was no less flow this—that at a
time of great peril, when all Europe was leagued against
us, we adopted the measure, and on the faith of an Act of
Parliament our merchants embarked their capital, on a
pledge as sacred as Parliament could give, that it should
be safe. But the danger had passed away. There was
now no longer any probability of danger from the great
northern states. He would be content to put that out of
view, to consider that there was no probability that the
great northern states would not continue to cultivate the
arts of peace ; he would suppose that we might get cheap
timber from thence without any necessity of alarming
the country. But was the House prepared to sacrifice
the men who had saved us from danger ?—(Hear, hear.)
The timber trade was in a precarious state, and on the
faith of the protection offered to them, our merchants ex-
erted all that enterprise which always belonged
to them ;
they invested
their fortunes in the recesses of the Canadian
forests, erected mills and machinery, cut canals, and built
wharfs and warehouses, all of which would be useless if
this protection were withdrawn. But we were deceived
if we thought such a measure would not bring evil upon
ourselves. It was bad economy that had notjustice for

' had proposed, were exciting the violence of the viol :I
and urging men to further demands—(Hear, hear) eel
he would tell his Majesty's Ministers that the discon.t.e,
its lameis. Illajesty's Minis'ese, by the measure! .telmrs,!
in the country hart been owing to a long series of legole,
tire proceedings, which, by treading
the productive classes, and sacrificing it to an abstracht pwa,
iosophy, were leading to results the extent of %chic hit
not yet to be seen.—(Hear, hear.)--The ground
wat
(Mr. Attwood's). opposition to the measure, therefor
litical
its injustice. It was a great mistake of the
trade
economists, that capital invested in a branch °feich it
could be readily removed, and that the labour sv"
rrcr
employed could be removed also. This was an all the
committed by Adam Smith, and it ran through a, is
works of the political economists. A capital ins'c'tc"
army branch of commerce could not be so readily to fie
ferred, and the labour which it employed could nd° but
made useful in another branch. It might he cruai,e. b. his
it could not he transferred. The principle on sT.,"l,cr, the
Majesty's Ministers defended the measure apPlie",e-k by
whole of our colonies, it would loosen every ," The
which the. empire was bound together.—(llea" duties
same principle which applied to-day to the timber. „to
would be applicable to the abolition of all protectalte„
our domestic.. industry,
land labour applied ; then the
Whether the system d be de-
tion bail or good was not the question non.' t° of it,
ticiwo thc propel tyhi!
I cider]; a capital hart been invested upon the faith , it
was advise-Ode to destroy this capital and labour;o be
admitting this, if ever tee charge took place, it W°aatela
accompanied by a temporary derangement Of capital on to
surblus of labour, which philosophy was ult„biels
make some provision for. Was this a period in `e ?se.
tile country could safely undergo so great a ebacs,„r to
(Hear.)—lf it was agreed that it would be beT
abandon the system of protection, the resolution s'fose
be carried into practice in a period of universal rose
perity at home and of tranquillity abroad. li° what
this such a time ?--(Hear, bear, hear.) 6,,51
market could we rely upon for three months? seaaseek
by the gentlemen opposite, that the capital Inigh,teim-
employment elsewhere ; but when it deserted its old eight
nel and opened a new one, some political event:lllohr
question was, whetne.o3
eecur to close up the ne v market, and, after all this bed
we might be driven back to the old system which we et
abandoned.—(Hear.)—He (Mr. Aitwood) should 4')-01
have been surprised if abstract theorists were desirteeu time
putting such a scheme in practice, without regard hed
state of the country and of the world ; but he was astonrthe
that men, holding the responsible post of Ministers ate lit
country, should have brought forward such a raea'areere
such a period, when, both at home anal abroad, reef
threatened with dangers on every side,—when half art'
rope was in arms,—a measure which might be ac
been
ponied by calamity and ruin. The measure had 'undo
brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers on rah, to
distinct and different from those on which it 0"g of the
alters modification,
la nd it
rest. It was his determination to take the am:a,' the
t
Commitme on the question—(heir)—notwithstanding
el,
sure Noble
,t,
aLso Lord's
je.stionslear.)
Mr. C. P. TuomsoN amid that the Hen. ge'atliieirs
had stated that his Majesty's Ministers had placfb"i:h
measure on grounds entirely different from these" ‘lini,oo)
he thought it should be placed. He (Mr. Vi°`-1
was glad they heal done so, and sorry should he have
,l to
forl%,as thsetillprliia,nbeliepl:moofaitihte;city
if any Government in that house could be prePaire,,er
place a greet measure of national importanee oo tee
elusive gerunds of the two interests mentioned Wray
Han. Member. The lion. Member wan prepared tots of
' bite the question solely with reference to the interetto
the colony and of the ship-owners, and to let the int'
of the consumer, that is of the country, he forgotteaso'cb
(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Thomson) trusted that pt.
grounds would never be adopted by any Goverileee
The interests of the colonists and time ship-owners hailbt to
considsied by his Majesty's Government as they Mt trail
be, in connection with the interests of the country' ,et
wisely so, because it was in vain to say that one he
was to he hoist, real up at the expense of another ; aneel
would be a short-sighted legislator who would acitio
other interest than the interest of the community geeeregi'
The objection of the Hon. Member was, that the ire,
slature had no right to interfere with the duty n 0 Corn'
posed, and he had read an extract from a report 0f a usly
mittee, which he endeavoured to show bore out his re or
sion that a pledge was given that the duty was to beo'emet
manent and fixed. But he (Mr. Thomson) had hied
heard it contended that even when a duty vtaa, 040
by Parliament, it was not in the power of Parhasuietr
to alter it ; and when nothing was said upon that t'vjer•
Parliament had not only the right, lout no plea ofniuther
tice could be set up.--( Hear.) He would refer to
read (t part of the very report the Hon. Member had rea° ‘0 et'
the Lords' Committee in 1820), which alluded t°, arobte'
tempt to set up exactly the plea of the Hon. )ie rtioa
The Lords' Committee, in that report, gave this As?,-,019
a distinct denial ; and what were the words ? 10
Committee were informed by those of his MaieetsYst the
sisters who were Members of the Committee, tu"„tioa
Canadian merchants were led to believe that the alter; dr
of duty would be permanent.--(Hear.) But it Wetirl
Glared that the duty of 21. Is. would be C0°6013010
some coromiderable time, but that there was no toil's° arla
whatever as to time •war-duty and the duty of ISl„'r 046
that the exemption from duty of the Canadian the
temporary.—(hear.) This ha i been explained the
Canadian merchants in conversation with them o°(4e it
Baltic traders." And was the r esolivion cf the Ifeaf the
' conformity- with the report ? No ; the resaiati° °di of
House was' n a different scale. As to the brea tity,
faith, he would refer the Hon. Member to an aath`lotert
which he would not think a crude visionary Phila4Pre'eatiC
a Minister of the Crown iii the House of Lords: he -4,ert
Lord Bathurst, who had distinctly said, when the was
was considered by the House, that the arrangernetiotere
subject to revision in three or four years, or at a°Ydi
the
time.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Thomson) did agree s*l • but
Hun. Member so far, that there was a pledge given t 0 the
the pledge was to the consumer, not to the colony °,r I,od
ship-owners. A distinct pledge had been giver, vy
toer th
oit
Bathurst, that if the duty pressed on the consu
subject should come under the consideration of Parbrad
He bsd never heard the place where this was utte beibite
cased of being a nursery of crude notions; it '4. ealit;
all the slowness the lion. Member could desire, Ano
ness and haste were not attributed to that assenalrlliol
ip
what was the measure which had been charaetetto s 0
b°
, such strong terms? It was to come in three Ye by t.e
protection exceeding by one half that proposedbliged:;
Lords in 1820.—(-fear.) He was sorry to be °ete P-e,
[trouble the Committee with details, but where they t;'j
been exaggeration of facts and figures, it WAS only 000
currence to facts and figures that these exaggerati°:tioa of
he met. With respect to the nature of the Alt: „Olt,'" •
deals, the Noble Lord had stated the extreme in get) a' pe
the duty on deals, lout he had not dwelt so nittjis eo'fo
might have done on its effect upon time labour of ti. Pat
try, which needed it so much. It was obvious 1U spr
deals were admitted at a duty which gave then o'4o
rence over timber, the labour of this country .--broa,,
fair protection against that of another. Thii:er's erget
him to an important point in the Hon. MI gels vt
anent,—that we gave assistance to the trade ° !tier° tof
the expellee of our own colonies. But the 11°"" sift"' it
The lace
could not know the nature of the measure. toptpd
-
it, instead of assisting- the trade of Russia, "44,e,1ea ,be
on a fair and equal footing with the trade of °,sirist ore
Norway, and amongst the representation, i'e fla', by
measure was one from individuals engaged io e:op tea
trade, stating that their interests would rajualro.,
it. The measure was calculated to effect glitier lose-
nearer approximation in duty between the the rise
nada, America, and Europe. But he would e'd the P ,•
rnittee to consider the nature of the trade, 30 That. Visit
paid for the unequal protection to the colonist:to diialoid
tection Ministers professed not to remove, ti° aferober 1 be
to a certain extent; and when the Hon. teli3ctlY
they intended to destroy it, he could not kee°l„ee the
said. When this subject was considered h
the same statement was made. In the evidea,'roposnoir dee
Committee of 1820, it was said that it rtimeet,tirere•
duty was altered, the Canada trade would being tbiaThere
stroyed ; instead of which—instead of rea"z,sou, deuce
diction—the result had been exactly time revciee eretioe,
were good grounds therefore for hesitating t°gonticiP°o4o
to the same parties. In 1820, when the,s;‘,? In trade
were formed, what was the state of the trsu,, theditterY
it was said, that in the years 1818 and ejat the 0r et ill
had sustained an unnatural impulse, and tri, it; Ye-risen
nature of the trade was not to be judge°_:),j, .A°,- tele
1817, the timber imported from our 020 '6,000,
possessions amounted to 180,000 loads; int 44,2,0 51,ed
270,000 loads ; but in 1829 the airmu%g destrOl 100.,
loads.—(Hear.) So that, instead of hem reduce j beet'
the alteration of 20s. in the duty (the mel'trade haod the
the other raised 101.), the increase in th House s
coot
more than doubled, or as two to five. The should rsehich,
Committee would see from this, that theY
torieo" 1,010
with considerable caution, indeed, an) sata's ejell
were put forward on this subject.---(llchea'a been tribb,,t' rn
take as an instance, the statement Which - g tO
-an Hon. Member opposite on a former evlotiatleoleo
thia trade there were engaged 1,600 shiPe9,, 000 eeabeing,
to 2y, ore
430,000 tons, and giving employment foss an
this WO
for when that Hon. Member talked et- 0 9 -
calculated to throw out of employmoenue Who
10,000 seamen, which he took as half

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