The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-26 00:00:00

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PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, JUNE 25.
This day their Lordships met at half-past four
o'clock.

NEW BILLS.
Mr. BROGDEN and others brought up from the Commons
the Kilmainham Hospital Bill, the Irish Window Tax Repeal
Bill, the Insolvent Debtors' Act Amendment Bill, which were
read a first time ; and a message announcing.that the Commons
had agreed to the amendments made by their Lordships in the
Sheriffs' Depute Bill.
CORN LAWS.

Petitions against the-Corn Importation Laws Amendment
Bill were presented by Lord REDESDALE,Lord CALTIIORI'E,
and the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, from Owners and Occupiers
of Land in the various parishes in the Counties of Northum-
berland, Suffolk, and Dorset.—Laid on the table.
Lord CALTHORPE presented a Petidon from the Inha-
bitants of Bridewell Precinct, in favour of the Bill for pre-
venting Cruelty to Animals.—Laid on the table.
ARMY AND NAVY PENSIONS.

The Order of the Day' having been read, -
The Earl of LIV.ERPOOL, in moving the second reading
of the Bill for relieving the country from the charge for the
half-pay of the Army and Navy, should briefly state the
grounds on which he thought the measure entitled to their
Lordships' approbation. It would be in their recollection that
in the various discussions which had taken' place respect,
ing the Peace Establishment, it had generally been repre-
sented as
.too considerable and too expensive. It had been
contended, on the other hand, that its magnitude arose from
its including charges which did not fairly come under the na-
tural character of a Peace Establishment, such as the half-pay
for the Army' and Navy, •which alone exeeeded the whole
amount of the Peace Establishment at the close of the Ameri-
can war. Under these circumstances it had occurred to his
Majesty's Ministers whether it would not be advisable to
transfer that charge from the Peace Establishment to the Na-
tional Debt, as it had been done by the French Government,
and as it was in fact a matter of bone fide debt. The magni-
tude of the sum which had, thus grown out of a war of
twenty-one years' duration, made it a natural consideration
whether any relief could be given to the country by an, ar-
rangement with the parties themselves, either by
,purchasing
their half-pay for smaller annuities of a marketable nature, or
by the pa,yment of a fixed sum at once. There would have
been nothing unfair in such a proceeding, for, had the parties
consisted of a few individuals, they might have been assembled
in a room, and the offer submitted for their option. This had
been the first idea : but when Ministers had looked to its execu-
tion, they had found it impracticable from the number of indi-
viduals concerned, and the circurnstances,in which they were
placed. For it was not to„be forgotten that those individuals
might be recalled into service, and that those who should refuse
to serve would lose their half-pay-altogether. The plan, though
founded on,a sound'principle, was therefore abandoned as not
capable of being executed ona large scale. The next idea was,
how far is was possible to farm the amount of the half-pay, and
whether it could be done on terms advantageous to the country.
—But here another objection arose to the half-pay being paid
through any other hams than those of the Government. It had
been therefore thOught adviaable to take on a given number of
lives a given sum to be paid each year, either by a public body
becoming contractors or by the scheme now proposed. Such
had been the origin of the present measure ; and the measure
for. their. Lordships to consider was, whether the bargain was
advantageous to the public, without which it ought not, to be
adopted. He contended that it was : The five millions of half-
pay were as much part of the National Dekt as the 1300 millions
of which it was admitted to be composed. The proposed plan
would, at the end of the 45 years, leave' the country exactly
where it was; the liquidation of the National Debt would not
be postponed for a single day on its account; whilst the 5 mil-
lions would decline in a manner to make ,relief progressively
greater than it would be at present. It had therefbre been de-
termined to take an average sum of 2,800,0001. for 45 years,
which would go, an decreasing till the end of that period. For
the first 16 years, the advantage would be. on • the side of the
public, after that in favour of.the Contractors. He considered
this arrangement to be just and equitable, not only to the pre-
sent generation, but to posterity, as at no period would a heavier
burthen be imposed on posterity than that which we took upon
ourselves. It was besides the only mode of coming at once to
the diminution of the taxes. Had the five millions of half-pay
been kept' on the present footing-, the same falling in every
year would have been so small, that it would. have_been diffi-
cult to apply it to the relief of the taxes. Government
,would, therefore, have been under the necessity either
of postponing relief from- taxation to a longer period than
would be just to the country, or by some measure like the
present, though on a more -limited scale, to anticipate the
larger fallings in. He had already shewir-that no greater bur-
then would be thrown on posterity than that assutned -by our-
selves ; but even if that were the case, the country would have
been placed in a better state to bear it than it now was, by the
,operation of the Sinking Fund and its accumulation by com-
pound interest, which -in ten yeaxs.would raise that Fund from
five millions to seven millions and a half.' He held a paper
containing the calculation on which the measure was founded,
which calculation had been made in the Three per Cents. at 75,
or 3 and I. There was, besides, n provision to meet •any new
half-pay which might arise. There was no man who could look
at the state of the country and the taxes which it had to bear, who
must not wish that the National Debt should be reduced in
every mode consistent with the faith due to the public creditor.
But their Lordships must not look to the present measure, or
to any reduction of the taxes, as likely to afford any relief
to agriculture. He did not believe that any reduction of tax-
ation which could be proposed would have, the least effect in
relieving agriculture. The people reasoned as though the tak-
ing off of a tax from the payers would yield unmixed benefit.
That was not the -case : loss might be incurred in another
quarter, and no general relief be produced. The Noble,Earl,
illustrated this doctrine by the example of a measure which
had met with universal approbation, the reduction of the Five
per Cents. It had enabled Government to repeal 1,400,0001:
out of the Malt Tax, and had beea protluctive ot advantage
to the consumers of beer ; but it had also taken from about
150,000 individuals one-fourth of their income, and had de-
creased their means of consumption to that amount. It was
certainly desirable that the Peace Establishment should be
fixed as low as possible, but in doing so many individuals must
be turned out of employment, and a valuable branch of con-
sumption must be destroyed. So far from the reduction of
taxes being calculated to relieve Agricultural distress,'he. con-
ceived that the only measure, and he confessed it would be in
the end a fatal one, which could have a direct effect on agri-
culture, would be a great increase of the public expendi-
-ture. If that expenditure were augmented by ten millions to-
morrow, the benefit to farmers would be immediate, though
purchased with an ultimate loss to the country. He believed
that the present measure would prove useful, not so much in
the way of relief, as in contributing to remove the artificial state
in which the war had placed us, and bring us back to a natural
state. As it was unavoidable in time of war to contract a debt,
so it ought to be the object of all Governments in time of peace
to reduce' that debt. This would be the effect of the pre-
sent Bill, which he therefore moved should now be read a
second time.

---
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not rise to oppose the
measure. Having been one of those who at the commencement
of the Session had strongly recommended the reduction of the
taxes, he could not withhold his consent from a Bill Which
would have that effect, at the same time that the observations
with which it had been introduced by the Noble Earl rendered
it necessary for him to qualify his consent. There had hither-
to been two, modes of proceeding with respect to public
burthens : either to increase that which you bore yourselves
in order to relieve posterity, or to remove the weight`from
your own shoulders and to place it on those of posterity. It
had been reserved for the Noble Earl to act on both systems at
once, by creating a Sinking Fund of five millions, to extinguish
so much of the National Debt, and in the course of the same
Session adding 2,800,000/. •to - that debt! This Bill created
a set of Commissioners to sell annuities in the market, %whilst
there was another employed in buying them up.. The fund
market was affected by the same circumstances as markets
for other commodities. What reflection would the most com-
mon farmer make, if on going to the corn market he should
find an agent purchasing torn for a Gent„leman who had not
enough of it for himself, and on moving a little farther shOuld
find another agent selling corn for the same Gentleman who
had too much of it ? What would he think of his sanity ?
And yet only. change the names of Agent and Steward for
those of Trustees and Commissioners, and it would be found
that his Majesty's Government were exactly in the situation of
that Gentleman. As something was to be gained in the exe-