The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

peud some money in emigration; but he should, at the
same time. say, ahould any Noble Lord come to their
House and ask for a large sum for emigration, that no-

thing could be more wild or more ejust than such a
proposition. lie knew from the reports of the emigra-
tion committee of New York, that emigilints from other
pills of Europe generally took wont!), with them to that
country, but that the contrary was always the ease with

he Irish emigrant ; and he, moreover, knew that those

Irish emigrants, by their exertions and their industry,
obtained as much as was necessary to send for their
relatives at nome, and he, therefore. hoped their Lord-
ships would pass this measure, as being calculated to
save thousands from an untimely and premature grave,
who might at a future time, through their spirit of ad-
venture and of travel, obtain comfortable means of living
in the country of their adoption. Ile admitted that the
resolutions of their Lordships' Committee were against
the Bill, but it should be at the same time consiered
that the second resolution was in favour of the practice
of the Bill, that is, to relieve the people as immediately
as possible, for the measure was by no means a perma-
nent one. If their Lordships would grant this rate in
aid, he and the Government with which he was connected
would guarantee that no money would b.:, expended un-
less through the guardians, under the closest supervision
of the Government.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM 'did not think the measure
either adequate or just, and should, therefore, support
the amendment.—[fiere the Noble Earl entered into a
comparison of the present state of Ireland, and its con-
dition before the failure of the potato crop, and argued
that Ireland was as much taxed as she could bear, and

as much as England herself.] Why should unions be
taxed in Ireland more than in England ? Did thoy
mean to repeal the union ? Did they mean to have
copied in Dublin the example of the Hungaria❑ Diet, in
issuing a proclamation separating that country from the
Austrian empire ? He was sure that the Government,
in introducing this measure, had no such intention, but
it was well to see that their acts did not tend that way.
If they rejected this measure he was sure that
the 100,000/. to feed the starving people of Connaught
would find its way there all the same. With regard
to the amount of the grant he would-not pay the House

of Commons so bad a compliment, as to suppose that
it would not have given its consent to a grant
double in magnitude to that which was submitted for
its approbation ; but he thought that, in so fixing the
sum, his Noble Friends forming the Government had
paid the House of Commons a bad compliment. Ho ob•
jetted to the measure, as being totally inadequate to the
great emergency which called it forth. Unjust in its
operation, but, above all, he objected to it on the ground
of its not containing any executory principle. Ho ap-
proved of the extension of the income-tax to Ireland,
and then he should propose that the relief of the dis-
tressed unions should become a first charge on the re-
venue arising from the income-tax. Of this he felt the

more persuaded, as the income-tax being once esta-
blished in Ireland, the Government would have a direct

interest i❑ improving the value of ail property there
upon which the tax would become chae geab e. The
people of England would soon perceive, he thought, that
the calamities of Ireland were more enduring than was
supposed, and he was convinced that if they did not
raise up the condition of the people of Ire-
land, the condition of the people of Ireland would
pull down the condition of the people of England.—
(Hear, hear.) Believing that if they were to reject this
measure they would not cause the death of one more
pauper in Ireland, he should not hesitate to support the
amendment of the Noble Earl opposite.
The Earl ST. GERMANS said that the distress of
Ireland had not been, nor could it be, greater than it
was at present; and believing that the object of the Bill
was to supply immediate relief for it, it should have his
earnest support.
Lord MONTEAGLE felt that he was but discharging
his duty in opposing this measure. With regard to the
Irish Members, he thought it right to inform their
Lordships that out of 105, the number of representatives
sent to the House of Commons by that country, 80 of
them opposed this measure, and of the remaining nuns
ber, some were not in their places in the House, and
only 15 were found to be in favour of it. If he was
asked, then, how this measure was carried in that House,
his answer to their Lordships would be, that it was car-
ried by the overwhelming votes of the English Members,
in an English House of Commons. Their Lordships
should not give their support to a measure so
unjust, with their eyes open. Would it be
fair, in the face of such opposition from the
great majority of the Irish Members, and of
such a demonstration as was exhibited in the peti-
tions of the Irish people against the measure, to do so?
He considered that the proposed rate in aid was as im-
provident as it was unjust. He could not, upon this
subject, avoid directing their Lordships' attention to a
document which had been submitted on the question, as a
basis for their Lordships to form their opinion upon, and
he must say, a more erroneous document could not be.
It was officially signed, and the party who prepared it
took the whole rateable property of Ireland, as shown by
a former valuation. The document assumes that 2i. per
cent. would be produced by this tax. The parties who
prepared the document had before them evidence that
the property of Ireland, which they rated at 13,000,0001.,
had fallen from one-half to one-fourth, and they gave,
as an estimate for their Lordships' guidance in the con-
sideration of this question, a forrner state of things
in Ireland. In the union of Scariff and Ennis, for
instance, they had evidence that the property had
fallen in value from 100,0001. a year to 60,000/. Now
that was a fallacy for their Lordships to proceed upon.
With respect to the advance of the 100,0001., he did not
see what security there was held out for its repayment.
Certainly he did not see any in the prospect from the
rate in aid. In inflicting this rate in aid, their Lord-
ships would be doing a great wrong, and consummating
a great injustice towards the industrious parts of Ire-
land. If the rate in aid was paid, it would be so reluc-
tantly; but if it was not, the non-payment would be
ascribed to sectarianism and narrow-mindedness, so far
as the people of Ulster was concerned. Government
had better take care how they ruffled their feelings in
respect of this rate in aid. He further said, this rate
was unjust, and that injustice they were practising with
their eyes open. But it was said the rate was only 6d.
in the pound, and it was to be laid on only for two years.
Once passed, it would be like the income-tax—it would
be difficult to get rid of; once pass this measure, and
he defied them not to extend the principle contained in
it, should circumstances require it. If they passed the
Bill, they would do so against the wishes of the people
of Ireland, against the evidence taken before the
Committees of both Houses of Parliament, and against
the votes of the Irish Members of Parliament. It was
calculated rather to augment than repress the misery of
Ireland; and if they persevered in the present course,
not only would the waste land remain uncultivated, but
the improved lands would become waste, for all the men
of capital and skill and industry were fast leaving the
country. The uncertainty of the legislation had pro-
duced that effect, and unless they changed their system,
the country would soon become desolate. He would
therefore give his vote against the second reading of the
Bill, as it could not afford the slightest benefit to the
country.
The Earl of GLENGALL suggested the adjournment
of the debate; but there being cries of " Go on, go on,"
Lord AUDLEY rose, and was understood to support
the motion. He had heard it stated that those who op-
po►ed the measure did so in order to shift burdens off
their own shoulders; but he had no doubt that when the
people of Ulster saw the necessity of doing something
for the reliet of the distress which prevailed, they would
contribute most cheerfully. He conceived the measure
ought to be accompanied with others; and was glad to
see that it had been followed by the Incumbered Estates
Bill.

The Earl of WICKLOW said, upon what authority
the Noble Lord affirmed that those who opposed the
measures wished to shift burdens from their own
shoulders he could not understand. It was not the fact,
for every one who had opposed it had shown the utmost
readiness to pay all just demands which could be made
upon them. All who had reasoned on this subject had
stated as their opinion that the Bill could not be limited
as to time or amount, and therefore if once passed would
be permanent. It was said that it was because the re-
presentatives of Ireland could not agree as to whether
they would have a rate in aid or the income-tax, but
that was not the case; for along with the income tax
the representatives of Ireland were told that they
would be saddled with other taxes, and therefore they
would give no reply. He would support the amend-
ment, because he heard no arguments from the Govern-
ment in favour of this measure which would convince
him that it was better than any other substitute which
might be brought in, even in this session, for it was not
too late at present.
Lord AUDLEY explained.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he consi-
dered that the Bill had been strongly and eloquently
supported by his two Noble Friends, both in her Ma-
jesty's Council (the Earl of Carlisle and the Marquis of
Clanricarde), although the contrary had been remarked;
and he, for his part, wished to state the grounds of his
support, and what he expected from the measure. It'
this Bill were of a permanent nature, and he had sup-
ported it, he should at once retract, because it would be,
if permanent, in direct opposition to the principle of the
poor-law; but it is because it was a temporary measure,
and an expedient for the relief of Irish distress, that ho
would support it, and press their Lordships to do the
same. He would ask their Lordships to consider the
measure, for though he was told that it was unneces-
sary for her Majesty's Ministers to bring such a mea-
sure forward, yet he should say that at the commence-
ment of this session some such measure was requisite,
to obviate the difficulties arising from Irish distress
From the time that some of the Irish Members depreci-
ated the grants of the Government to their country in a
most ungrateful manner, it became the duty of the Go-
vernment to raise money in some way fur this object,and,
consequently, to raise it from those in that country who
would be found able to contribute to the relief of the
poor. He should also say to the Noble Earl (the Earl of
Roden) that the resources of Ireland were not taxed to
the same degree as those of England, and that, there-
fore, such a measure as the present was requisite for
this purpose. The Right Rev. Prelate said that the
people of Ireland should be made to work in
such a manner as to obtain theirs own
living; but he (the: Marquis of Lansdowne). should
say, what could they do without food, capital, or
strength:to work? and that to attempt force, was, he con-
sidered, against the laws of God and nature. Under
these circumstances, though ho acquiesced in the decrees
of Providence, yet he should ray, that it was their duty
as Christians, in such transactions, to do as much as pos-
sible to mitigate and check that transition that arises
from famine of the most awful character, sweeping away
whole generations.—(Hear, hear.) When his Noble
Friend (Earl Fi!ewilhatn) described the act of Govern-
ment, in; convoking during the Parliamentary cession
a number of the Irish representatives of the House of
Commons as a constitutional twaddle, he (the Mar-
quis of Lansdowne) should say that that course was
not by any means unprecedented, as such frequently
occurred in the reign of William and Mary, and in