The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-28 00:00:00

INSOLVENT MEMBERS BILL.

Mr. GREEN, on the motion being put for the Com-
mittee on this Bill, said that he felt it involved so many
nice points of law that he could not be satisfied without
its being referred to a Select Committee up stairs.
Sir G. GREY said that, having understood that there
was some understanding had been arrived at respecting
the Bill, ho had not brought down the amendments
which he intended to submit, and he had therefore no
hesitation in moving that it now be referred to a Select
Committee.

Mr. MOFFATT said that, seeing the feeling which
prevailed in the House respecting the measure, and con-
ceiving also that the investigation of a Committee would
be likely to render the law more permanent and sound,
be should have no objection to such a course.
Mr. GOULBURN saidihat, having much more fully
considered the enactment's of the Bill since its second
reacting, he telt assured that it could not be properly
passed without the examination of a Select Committee.
After brief remarks to the same effect from Mr. Mac-
KINNON, Mr. HENLEY, and several other Members, the
Bill was referred to a Select Committee.
PUBLIC ROADS.

On the motion being made for the second reading of
this Bill,
Mr. NEWDEGATE, presented petitions from diffe-
rent places in Warwickshire in favour of the Bill.
Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS then said, that as this
Bill was one which was purely one of general utility and
had no political character whatever, he hoped that
he should have the support of Honourable
Members on both sides of the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile proposed in the first place, to meet the debt on the
highways by a county, rate; but he was aware that it
would to many seem to be very objectionable, especially
at the present moment, .when agriculture was labouring
under peculiar difficulty.—(Hear, hear.) But that diffi-
culty, to a certain degree, vanistitd when it was recol-
lected that the advances Irom the county rate was al-
ready more than a million and a half. The whole of
the debts owing by the several trusts was 6,609,0001.
To meet that he proposed that certain Commissions
should be appointed to act under the authority of the
Secretary of state, into whose hands the money derived
from the county rate should be paid, and they should
have the power to deal with the different bondholders. He
proposed that there should be a rate levied which would
be sufficient to meet a rate of interest of 6 per cent. The
commissioners were:then to allow the bondholders interest
after the rate of 4 per cent., and that a sinking fund
should be formed of the rest, which should be applicable
to the discharge of such debts as should be requested to
be discharged. These he did not expect would be many.
The money then required for the interest would be
396,5401.; for- repairs, 673,0001.; and he had allowed
57,0001. for improvements. This made a total of
1,126,5401., and as ho would have an income of
1.297,000/., besides 31,0001. which would be derived
from another source, they would be able to discharge
the whole of the obligations ot the highway trusts in
• twenty. eight years. The present cost of salaries, and
which he had at present left out of view, was 165,0001.,
which, with law charges, amounting to 14,0001., made a
charge of 179,000/. that formed a continually in-
creasing weight, if any interest was to be paid at
all. There was, besides the continually recurring
expenses ; he was sorry to Lay, also, a large
arrear of unpaid interest. '1 his he proposed
to meet by an equitable adjustment, which the Commis-
sioners would be empowered to make, and he had an
example for a precedent to rely upon, there having been
a similar arrear in 31 of the ousts of the six counties of
South Wales, where a composition had been accept( d of
_ somewhat less than 27 per cent. All the interest, which
was more than ten years old, he proposed should be
altogether sunk and abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Why,
Has not that but just to both sides?—(Hear, hear.)
They would not think of asking for interest that was
sixty years old.—(llear, hear.) Some limit must be put,
and he thought ten stars a very fair period. All the
highways as well as the turnpike-roads he proposed to
place, so far as their government ws, concerned, under
the direction of the county magistrates. There being a
separate highway board for each particular union, and a
central board for the whole county. It was true that they
. could not always control these local boards, and prevent
them at every time from travelling out of their proper
duties, but the tendency ot legislation of late had been
to diminish this evil, and he hoped that on the whole
they would not be productive of any very great mischief.
The Hon. Gentleman then gave the instance of Stoke
Church, a purely agricultural parish, to show bow his
system would work. Ile then concluded by moving
toe second reading of the Bill, assuring the House that
there was no disposition on the part of the Government
to press the matter on with any haste.
Mr. W. MILES said he had come down with the
express purpose of opposing the Bill, because he thought
it was intended to impose an imposition on the county
rate, but the objectionable parts of the measure having
been removed, is hat he would ask was that the second
reading of the Bill should be postponed, in order that
the Bill, as altered, might be reprinted, to enable Members
to judge of its provisions and their efficacy.
Mr. RICE said the Bill should be read a second time
in order that it might be reprinted. He believed that the
Bill could not be reprinted before first going into Com-
mittee upon it. He trusted, therefore, the Hon. Mem-
ber for Somerset would not persevere in postponing the
second reading of the Bill.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN had come down for the
purpose ot opposing the second reading of the Bill, but,
in consequence of the course that had been adopted
by the Government with respect to it, he
should give no opposition whatever to the
second reading of the measure, in order that it might be
brought before the House, and printed in the amended
shape. He thanked the Hon. Member for the pains he
had taken on this subject, and the extent to which he
had removed his previous objections to this measure,
which had been very strong indeed.
Mr. BRIGHT supported the second reading of the
Bill on the understanding that it was only to go into
Committee Pro forma, and that a distant day, say three
weeks or a month, should be fixed for its consideration
in Committee.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER supported the second
of the Bill, in order that it might be printed, and
pointed out several cases in which in its present shapen
it might give rise to great hardships in particular
- localities.
Sir G. STRICKLAND thought it would be better
to try to improve the existing institutions of the country
than to overturn them, and put forward others in
their place. Such was the effect of the present Bill, and
he should therefore oppose the second reading of th
measure.
Mr. HENLEY hoped the House would adopt the
course recommended by the Hon. Member for Somer.
setshire (Mr. W. Miles), and postpone the second read-
ingre
~.yotfi the Bill for a fortnikht. It was true the Bill was
g
different to that which was at first proposed; it
WAS greatly improved, but there was still considerable
objection to it.
Sir G. GREY, in supporting the secord reading of
the Bill, said that its going into Committee pro forma
would not prevent any Hon. Member from discussing its
principles on the motion that the Speaker should leave
the chair, when the time should arrive for its being con-
sidered in Committee.
Mr. NEWDEGATE objected to the principle of
making the county rates collaterally liable for the failure
of the tolls in turnpike trusts. The House had so come
pletely changed the whole case that its opinion with
respect to the new proposal was not in point. Ile said
it was most unfair to force on the second reading of
111.: Bill, when neither the constituencies nor the
Members of the House had had an opportunity of
coming,o to a clear understanding of its principle. The
Gentleman who had introduced the Bill had quoted
from a return which was not before the House. He had
quoted the results derived from a calculation'
with re-
lsipoenct
madeto Englandbea alone; while the results of a ealcula-
respected Wales,
Wel)! the, items of expense, as it
separate
ernatot included. It was impo-sible
for any man to sep those items. e, therefore,
cordially supported the Ron, H
Member for the University
of Oxford.
confessed for ono he should
Mr. R. PALMER
should t
hp
er o
have been very glad to have r
csupon what
ie,estoo7row
principle it was that any body
what he (Mr. Palmer) must consider
EojEei the shoulders of another.—(Hear, hooter
t )
1 Ira
. Gentleman had so completely altered
es••• . • e ,1 . : was just in that position that he did not
0,..f. . , sat„Ailje--;, A.k, , , ~ ement feel inclined to oppose the
1.4%-4-4,,,:?, ....... ..e- ::1. . the Bill. It would have been more
illg,
I.e.'' 'fi':;ee'it'Y . '.:,':- i 3. • 1 alternative is so extensive,. and will
~, 4:511';' 'l,=r. . • new Bill when re-printed, if the Bill,
ee „.;!..e.: '. vw ae, , , table, had been withdrawn, and a new
c
<IIALtiI ' '133 "'A the proposition which the Right Hon.
, a,- • to make had been lerought in, and that the
11. Lt ;ougt!/1411 take a future day for the discussion of the
principle or that new Bilie,-(llear.) Ile was not quite

--
clear that the county rate would be altogether dis-
charged from the new burden. Assuming that all the
turnpike trusts were to be placed in the hands of
this county board, the first things was to be
the repayment of the debt, with an addi-
tional charge of 2 per cent., for the purpose
of a sinking fund; but the question arose upon what
fund the repairs of the road were to be charged ?
As the law now stood he took it, if a turnpike trust was
insolvent, the turnpike should be indictable like any
other road, and the repairs would fall on the parishes
through which it passed. It seemed to him that by
whatever name they called it still those repairs would
fall on the county-rate.—(Hear, hear.) He rose rather
more to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He understood that the intention was that all the
tolls' and all the turnpike trusts, throughout any one
county were to be placed in that county board ; or,
to use a common expression, to be thrown into hotch-
potch; and so with Respect to the highway rates, it was
likewise to be thrown into the general fund, through
which all the rates of the county are to be disbursed.
It was a matter of serious importance to consider
whether it was a fair proposition or not.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE concurred in many of the re-
marks that had fallen from the Hon. Member who last
addressed the House, but he saw no reason whatever for
postponing the second reading of the Bill. He did not
quite understand whether the county board or the local
board intended to have anything more to do with
the turnpike trusts. So far as he understood the
proposition, the whole of the turnpike trusts were
to be thrown on a union of counties, and were
to be managed exclusively by a board in London.
Unless there was a division of the funds for
the maintenance of the roads, there would be
no reference to the local boards on the subject. The
landowners could not stand in a worse position with
respect to the public boards than they did now. Now,
he contended—and he would call the county Members'
attention to it—since the adoption of railways in the
country, the whole of the burdens, to the amount of
nearly 3,000,0001., fell almost exclusively on the landed
proprietors.—(Hear, hear.) The turnpike tolls inter-
fered with all their operations and affairs, and viewing
this Bill as it now stood, he saw a very great and mate-
rial improvement.
Mr. SPOONER said that Hon. Gentlemen had
stated that the principle of the Bill had been removed.
He (Mr. Spooner) thought that that was not so. They
took the rates which were now answerable for the re-
pairs of the roads, and applied them to make up the
deficient tolls, and then they came on the county for the
deficiency. Now that was the principle of this Bill.
A great number of turnpike trusts were solvent,
and were not only solvent, but had a surplus; and if that
surplus were properly managed there would be a very
small number of those roads which would fall for repair
on the highway rates. But see what they were now going
ti do. They said that the surplus should not keep those
roads in repair, and took that surplus and applied it to
the insolvent roads, and then, by a roundabout way, they
charged the counties with all the expenses of those
roads.—(Hear, hear.) It was, without exception,
the grossest deception that had ever been attempted
to be put on the House, if: the alteration proposed
would in any way aggravate the evils of the county rate.
There was another great principle involved its this Bill,
and that was the very unjust way in which they were
going to deal with the bondholders. Let them go to the
bondholders, who were receiving 51. per cent. for their
money—what did they say to them ? They said
they should receive but 4/. per cent., and then, having
saectioned this reduction of their income one-fifth,
they said their property was to be further taxed.—
(Hear, hear.) Was that common justice?—(Hear, bear.)
It was a new principle which was introduced by this
Bill, and a principle which was totally separated from
honesty, and to which he was quite sure Honour-
able Members would not give their sanction.
An additional bhrden would be thrown on the counties
which they were unable to bear, and which it was unjust
to press upon them. It would be far the best plan to
withdraw the 8.11, because he was sure that an opposi-
tion was springing up which would come upon the Hon.
Gentleman like a torrent, and entirely overwhelm him.
There was a general feeling of disapprobation in every
part of the country with regard to the principle of the
Bill. He considered it!would be more advisable to with-
draw the Bill, and to bring forward another in such a
shape that it would stand a better chance of obtaining
the sanction of the House. If, however. the Honourable

Member was determined to press it forward he beggcd
it to be distinctly understood that he would movu an
amendment, that it be read a second time that day six

months.

Mr. MANGLES objected to the Bill on the ground
that there was no provision in it to give compensation to
the clerks of the present turnpike trusts.—(Laughter.)
Sir J. TYRELL considered that the House ought to
have the amended Bill before it ere it proceeded with
the consideration of the principles contained in the
present Bill.
Mr. VERNON SMITH implored the House, if it
agreed with the principle of the Bill, to pass it at once,
and not to allow the evils with which it proposed to
deal to remain unprovided for during the present session.
The discussion had entirely turned upon one single point,
which had excited much alarm in the different counties,
viz., whether the county rates would become liable for
the debt of turnpike trusts; but although that was a
most important part of it, it dealt with other matters of
greater importance. He trusted, therefore, that the
House would agree to the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. BANKES said they were not called upon to pass
the second reading pro forma, but to sanction the Bill
with all its principles, which were of the most important
kind.—(Hear, hear.) They were asked to sanction the
proceedings of a county board, which was to take under

its management for the first time all roads throughout
the country, and also a!1 turnpike trusts. They were to
amalgamate all turnpike trusts, whether solvent or
insolvent, and the solvent ones were to answer for the
errors of those who had managed their affairs improperly.
These were principles to which he was not prepared to
give his assent without more consideration than they
could apply' to the Bill now before them. He would
propose the adjournment of the debate for six wee ks,
that :the Bill might be amended, and the county magis-
trates have an opportunity of more Maturely considering
its detai2s.

Mr. HUME said, if Hon. Members had taken the
trouble he had to ascertain the present expense of ma
naging turnpike trusts, they would agree with him that
a measure for consolidating their management, was of
the utmost importance to th country. He did not agree
with the whole of the Bill, but he hoped the House
would agree to its recommittal, in order that the Go-
vernment might have an opportunity of, remodelling
it, so as to meet the views of Hon. Members.
Mr. MACKINNON would not have troubled the
House if he had not been chairman of a Committee on
the subject some twelve years ago. He really felt that
the object of this Bill was quite misunderstood.—(Hear.)
The debt owing by the Turnpike and Highway Trusts
was about 8,000,000 L, and there were arrears of interest
amounting to about 2,000,0001, and unless some such
Bill as this was passed it.would all certainly be lost.
—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the
House quite misunderstood the matter. Instead of being
an injury, this Bill of the Government was a direct
boon to the solvent trusts, and without it, or some
measure like it, the property of the landholders
of the insolvent trust would altogether lose their
money. It was a mistake to suppose that this Bill was
intended to centralise the power of controlling these
trusts in the hands of Government. It was quite a
different matter. The object of the Bill was not to
centralise the power in the Government, but to conso-
lidate the several trusts under the control of central
local boards.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought
that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment deserved great credit for grappling with a subject
which was as difficult as it was important.—(Hear and
cheers)—and it was a disgrace to the several
Miuistries for the last fifty years that it had
not been sooner taken up.—(Laughter.) There were
no clauses in this Bill that presented any obstacle
which might not be effectually met and dealt with in
Committee.—(Hear.) Let Hon. Gentlemen who had
any objection to its details pass the second reading, and
then, having time given before the Committee sat, they
might send it round to the several constituents in their
counties, obtain their opinions, and then the Bill might
be altered accordingly. After all, they were only
dealing. with these insolvent trusts as they would act
in all cases of insolvency, and he trusted, therefore, that
her Majesty's Ministers would persevere' and carry the
Bill through its present stage.—(Cries of "Divide.
Mr. DEEDES said that, for his own part, he
could not consent that the Bill should be so has-
tily passed through its principal stages, and
he hoped that the Government would with-
draw this Bill and bring in another embodying its
principal clauses, and exclusive of its many objection-
able portions.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.") He had
heard many objections stated to the Bill, to the validity
of all of which he could give his assent, but certainly, after
what had fallen from several Members, it was evident that
the principle was not correctly understood, and he for one
was not inclined to move in the dark and give his concur-
rence to any legislation which he did not understand.—
(Hear, hear.) Let the Hon. Gentleman withdraw this
Bill, and he was quite sure that the House would give
him every facility for passing the new Bill through all its
preliminary stages.—(Hear.)
Sir JOHN DUCKWORTH was quite dissatisfied
with the principle of paying the debts of the turnpike
trusts out of the county rate. He thought it would be,
to say the least of it, extremely impolitic.
Mr. C. LEWIS conceived that, after what bad fallen
from the several Hon. Members on the other aide of
the House, the better plan would be to with-
draw this Bill, and substitute another at a
very early date. There were not more than four or
five clauses which required alteration, and these should
be attentively considered, so that there wouldhabteevner
from w
no
valid objection to the principle of the
might be said of its details.—(Cheers
_thy opposite
side of the House.) do should, therefore, ask for permis-
sion to withdraw the Bill.—(Cheers and counter cheers.;
Mr. lIUME execdingly regretted that the Govern-
ment had adopted this course.—(Cheers, and cries of
Oh, oh !") Yes, he was really very sorry for it—
(Hear and cheers) —for if, as the Hon. Gentleman
stated, it would only require the alteration of four or five
clauses, much time would be lost, and no advantage
gained by such a proceeding. The better plan would be
to let the Bill go into Committee, and by the usual pro-
cess amend the several defects when it was there. He
did, therefore, object to its withdrawal.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said, that when he heard from the Hon.
Member for Warwickshire, as well as from the
lien- Member for Dorsetshire, that they intended
to give their unqualified opposition to the Bill,
the Government had intended to persevere with it; but
when he saw that many Hon. Gentlemen opposite ap-
peared to be unable to appreciate its details, although in
the main they were friendly to its principle, he thought
the hotter plan would be to withdraw the Bill, and
bring in another at an early date, so that the
second reading might be taken before Easter,