The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-07 00:00:00

LONDON,

about to set aside treaties solemnly entered into aithout peedily as possible.—(Hear, hear.) He thought no
the sanction of the Proprietors, who by the tenor of the ,person who had read the discussion which took
Act of Parliament under which we are incorporated obese at the last Court could sympathise with
are themselves Governors, anti you are only appointed the sentiments of the Honourable Gentleman
by them to carry on the g wernmena that confidence who had opened the debate.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
which has been heretofore reposed in you will be irre- Hume) made charges against his Hon. Friend the Chair-
parably shaken.—(llests.) I say you have acted most man of this Court, in language which he was sure the
unfairly, because you led us to expect that our Hon. Gentleman would regret when he read it over in
decision would be sought upon. the matter before his cooler moments. The Hon. Gentleman made use
you came to a final decision. Under these cir- of the words " dishonourable," " disgraceful," and
cumstances I will not enter into the general clues- " ill-advised," and the only comment he should
tion whether treaties have been violated or not, mike upon them might be compressed into
whether a young man who had been named as one sentence. They fell harmless upon his Hon.
the successor of the deceased Raja, both by adoption Friend the Chairman, and only proved injurious to the
and lineal descent, is entitled to the territory; and I be- person who had used them. But he was more
lieve the person who claims to be the heir to astonished at the doctrine the Honourable Gentleman
the territory has been indicated by the late had laid down with regard to the constitution of the
Governor-General, Sir Robert Grant, as the real Court of Directors and the formation of the Company,
heir—indicated, too, as such in all your documents. and he was the more surprised at this doctrine, because
The question of his right, therefore, is quite inde it came from the lips of a gentleman who
dendent of the question whether Pertaub Singh has was supposed to be an authority on matters
betrayed or violated the treaty. The question is, is his connected with India. They e ere told by the
family to be punished for any acts of which he may or Hun. Gentleman that the Court of Proprietors
may not have been guilty? formed the Executive Government.—(No, no.) Some
Mr. CLARKE said the Hon. Proprietor was out of gentlemen cried "No, no," but that was the meaning
order, unless he intended to conclude with a motion. of what the lion. Gentleman said ; but if that was not
Mr. HUME replied that the Hon. Proprietor must the meaning of what he said, his words and observations
know little of his practice it he thought that he intended were altogether devoid of meaning. He said it was the
to conclude without a motion.—(Laughter.) He was province of the Court of Proprietors to determ;ne the
not, however, about to enter into the general question. powers of their executive, but ho very much doubted
He merely wished to state that the successor of the whether the lion. Gentleman would be° able to sustain
deceased Raja must not be held, in common parlance, that doctrine. Now, how stood this matter? When the
implicated in any of the guilt which was laid to the discussion took place at the last meeting, his Hon.
charge of his grand uncle. Having been informed by Friend the Chairman said the question was sub judice.
the First Minister of the Crown that it Then said the Hon. Proprietor who introduced this mo-
was a fact that orders had gone our, with time, it was the duty of the Directors, according to
the approbation of the Board of Control, to the Constitutional Government of India, before they
confiscate the Sattara territory, he expressed his sincere decided upon,the question—before they communicated
regret that the Directors had adopted so precipitate and their decision to the department who co-operated with
uncalled-for a step, he begged to move that the Court them in the affairs of India—to call the Proprietors
do adjourn for a fortnight or three weeks, together and con3ult them upon it.--(Hear, hear.) Now,
in order that the papers might be in the hands that was the statement of the Honourable Gentleman,
of the Proprietors. By law, he believed that the Pro- but he (Sir J. Hogg) denied that that was the
prietors were entitled to copies of all documents which constitutional Government of India. Everybody
were laid berme the House of Commons. He had could see the peril and the error at once of al'ow-
spoken thus strongly because he felt strongly the dis- ing a controlling body to form part of the Exe-
grace—he would call it the infamy, which attached cutive Government. It would be an endless
to every one connected with the East India Company, source of danger for the Executive Government
in consequence of the course it had adopted. If disgrace to be continually consulting the proprietary body upon
attached to persons in private life who committed a matters like these. They had example of this every
glaring breach of faith, how much more so must they day—every session they had example of this, more par-
condemn a great Company who committed such an act as titularly in the Foreign Department of the Executive
this? It was not so much with respect to the stain of the Government. A question was asked respect-
deceased Raja's family that he spoke thus, but of the ing some matters pending, in the course of
faith of the treaties which were about to be violated, negotiation, and the Foreign Secretary rose and stated
and the disgrace which would thereby be brought upon that the matter was sub judice. It was under considera-
his name. The Honourable Gentleman subsequently Lion, and 'he could not answer the question for rea-
amended his motion, and moved for copies of the sons which the Executive Government and the
papers which he had moved for in the House of Corn- Minister representing her Majesty did not feel
-mons, in order that they might be circulated among the disposed to state. Perhaps a week or a fortnight
Proprietors.—(Cheers.) afterwards the same question was repeated, and the
The CHAIRMAN said he had no hesitation nor objet- Member was informed that the thing was done—accom-
tion on the part of the Directors to have the papers re- plished; but the Minister was willing and ready to lay the
ferred to published and circulated among the Pro- papers before the House, that parties might pass their
prietors.—(Hear, hear.) The proposition for the ad- judgment upon the conduct of the Executive Government.
journment of the Court could not receive the assent of Then some one jumped up and said "We are always too
the Directors. It would take some time to prepare the late or always too soon," upon which the Minister replied
papers, and when the Proprietors had perused them, the that he had acted strictly in accordance with the eonstitu-
Directors would be happy to attend to any requisition Lion. If the constitution was wrong, alter it, but while
that might be presented to them fur the it existed adhere to it. It was at least the duty of their
purpose of calling another meeting.—(Hear.) He could Executive Government, to adhere to it, and there was,
not, however, resume his seat without calling the atten- therefore, np cause of complaint. That was exactly the
Lion of the Court to the very hard terms in which the same in this Court. It was not competent for the Court
Hon. Proprietor had spoken of the Directors.—(Hear, of Directors to wait for the decision of the Proprie-
hear.) At the last meeting he did not make use of the tors before they determined any question ; but it
observation which the Hon. Gentleman had imputed would be physically and morally impossible to placethe
to him. Indeed it would have been most unconstitutional government of this Company inj a proprietary body
in him to place executive powers in tho hands of the numbering upwards of 2,000 persons. They were,
Proprietors. therefore, bound to select some body to form an Execu-
A PROPRIETOR rose to order. The motion had not five. If, however, that system was wrong, it was com-
been seconded. petent for the Proprietors to change it, or at
Mr. HUME then proposed his motion in express terms— least make an endeavour to do so, but do not
" That the papers connected with the appropriation of let Hon. Proprietors get up in the manner they had
the Sattara territory, and the decision of the Court, and just witnessed, and apply allures of ill names to the
any minutes connected with that decision, should be laid Chairman and Directors, because they had done their
before the Proprietors as speedily as possible." He had duty in acting according to the constitution and laws
consulted the President of the Board of Control on the of the Company. (Hear, hear.) But when
subject, and he was of opinion that that was the bast a man used harsh or hard language, it induced him to
form in which to frame his motion. arrive at one of two conclusions, either the party using
Mr. LEWIS seconded the proposition. such language had a bad temper or a bad cause.—
Mr. CLARKE said no pledge was given by the Chairman (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now his Hon. Friend had
at the last meeting that he should produce any of the not a bad temper. lie was known in the House
papers.—(Hear) No such inference or deduction could of Commons to be of an excellent temperament.
be made from the observations which the Chairman sub- He had been tried beyond all men in the House,
mitted to the meeting. and had been proved to be the man least open
The CHAIRMAN was glad the Honourable Pro- to give offence, and the least open to offence. It
prietor had made the statements he had, as it was admitted by common consent that, amidst
prevented him from replying to the hard terms the heat and strife of parties, he was one of
used towards himself and the Directors by the Hon. the best tempered men in the House. He never
Proprietor (Mr. Hume). He could only truly and said a hard thing of any body, and seldom or never took
distinctly state that no pledge of the kind was given to offence at any one, although he frequently bad good
the Court of Proprietors. He only said that the papers cause to do so. The conclusion he had come to at all
had arrived, and that they were sub judice under the events was, that he never lost his temper, and
consideration of the Directors. It never, he assured the he cculd not for the life of him help think-
Proprietors, entered his mind that first of all they were to ing that he must have a bad cause.—(Hear, hear.)
be submitted to the Court of Proprietors, They were not It often struck him that whenever the Hon. Gentleman
the executive government ; the time lied not arrived got up to speak upon this unfortunate Sattara question
when the directors were to surrender that power to the lie felt a little uneasy in his temper. He could not
Proprietors. The Honourable Member had been help thinking that the Honourable Gentleman felt
correctly informed by the Hirst Minister of within himself as though he would rather say,
the Crown, that the question of the right to " Alack-a-day, what a miserable hour it was when
the territory of Sattara had been settled in con- I first took up this unfortunate Sattara, question. lam
junction with the Board of Control, and that the confis- perfectly ashamed of it myself; and of the part I have
cation of the territory had been determined upon. It taken in it."—(Hear, and laughter.) He could not for
was not improper for the Proprietors to discuss the mat- the life of him, with all his constitutional good humour,
ter then, but it appeared to him that they would not be preserve his usual equanimity of manner and feeling
in a position to give a fair opinion until they had had when he got up to speak upon this topic, and
an opportunity of perusing those papers which, as he he (Sir J. W. Hogg) could not help thinking that
had said, would be circulated among them with the least the Hon. Gentleman heartily regretted that he was ever
possible delay. He was un wilting- to name any peril- drawn into becoming the advocate of such a cause as
eular day for the adjournment of the Court. When the this.—(Cheers.)
Proprietors had mace themselves acquainted with their Mr. Home must really be allowed to say a word or
contents another meeting might be caned by requisition. two in explanation. Often as he had occasion to
Mr. DONALDSON said he was present at the last meet- complain of the Honourable Baronet being in
ing, and certainly his impression of what the Chairman the wrong ho bad never known him so far wrong as
stated with regard to the production of the papers was he was now.—(dear, hear, and laughter.) But, not-
exactly as that stated by the Hon. Gentleman who had withstanding the observations of the Hon. Baronet, he
just sat down.—(Hear, hear.) did not regret one word, or one argument he had made
Mr. LEWIS, as the mover of the resolution:at the last use of; but he must complain that the Honourable
meeting, might, perhaps, ba allowed to state what his Baronet had taken his words without the previous
impression was upon the subject. When he had con- remarks. What he said was this, the Court separated,
eluded by moving his resolution, and after he as far as he knew, with the understanding that they
had stated his arguments in support of it, and were to be informed of the decision of the Court, and to
it had been duly seconded, the Chairman rose and stated have the papers before them before a final
that he felt it to be his duty to adjourn the Court settlement was come to of the question. An
on the ground that the time had not arrived for the adjournment took place upon that understanding, and it
consideration of the subject, as it formed a matter then was in that belief that he made use of the words re-
underathe deliberation of the Court of Directors.— ferred to.--(Bear, hear.) With regard to the ex-
(Hear, hear.) Now he put it to any person-who heard planation of his Honourable Friend, in reference to the
that statement whether the plain and only intelligible constitution of the :Company, the instance he had
inference to be drawn from that declaration was not mentioned was exactly in point, for upon one
that before an actual decision was come to on the Sat- occasion he called for papers which were not produced.
tara question, and before a final dispatch was sent The Hon. Gentleman said, in that case, he (Mr. Hume)
out to India confirming the decision, that Court had no right to pass an opinion upon what followed, but
would have an opportunity of stating their views what was the case? Why, when these papers were
and opinions on the matter?—(Hear, hear.) That was produced he himself moved in the House of Com-
the plain and common sense inference to be drawn from mons a vote of censure upon the Minister for what
the Chairman's statement. True, he did not actually he had done. It was, therefore, not inconsistent with
say that the papers should be laid before them, but the the constitution to discuss the decision of the Directors,
only inference to bo drawn from the tone and manner of and his Honourable Friend, in future, when he got
the Chairman was, that the papers would be forthcoming, upon the high horse, would do well to take care that he
and the Court would have another opportunity of fully and did not ride him into the mud.--(Hear, hear, and
impartially discussing the question before the Executive laughter.) He would not do more now than simply
came to a final decision upon it. That was the natural say that in applying the epithets he had done he did
inference which the statement of the Chairman led to; so sincerely, believing that the conduct of the Directors
although he did not mean to say that the Chairman merited them, while he could assure the lion. Baronet,
made any pledge, but he represented that it was dis- and he would give him credit for truth, when he said the
tinctly understood that they should have an opportunity Hon. Baronet was mistaken in supposing that he (Mr.
of discussing th-s question before the dispatch was sent Hume) fancied his cause was a bad one.—(Hear, hear.)
out.—(Hear, hear.) Sergeant GAZELEE gave it as his opinion that those
Mr. liEwsoN really could not understand what repeated adjournments of the Courts called for special
ground of complaint the gentlemen who had been purposes were illegal and unconstitutional, and begged
instrumental in calling the meeting could urge to give notice to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who
against the Directors. The Honourable Gentleman was then standing counsel of the Company, and who
who had just addressed them said they were who was considered the highest authority in the kingdom
to have another opportunity of discussing the question. upon such points, that at the next Court he should put
For his part, however, he thought they had already had a question to him upon that matter, and he hoped the
the fullest opportunity for discussion and placing their Hon. and Learned Gentleman would come prepared to
opinions before the Court of Directors, who, no doubt, give him an answer.—(Hear, hear.)
had given them all the consideration that they were worth. A PROPRIETOR begged to asked if the notice of motion
—(Hear, hear.) The Court of Directors was the only had any relation whatever to the question before them?
tribunal to decide the question. The Court of Pro- The CHAIRMAN—It has nothing whatever to do
prietors might give its opinion upon it, and the Hon. with it.
Gentleman who had just sat down and his friends en. Mr. Sergeant GASELEE said, however that might
tered at large into their views at the last Court, and he be, he was quite sure that the Honourable and
was quite surprised that the Honourable Gentleman who Learned Gentleman would make a note of his notice
had introduced the question today had not well consi and be prepared to answer his question at the next meet-
dered the proceedings of the last Court before he von- ing. He would now proceed to the matter in discus-
tured to make such sweeping charges against the Court sion. He had always expressed himself in that Court
of Directors.—(llear, hear.) It was an odd thing that in courteous terms, and he had never failed to treat
he should now be called upon to defend the con- every one with courtesy and respect. He
sistency of the gentlemen who took part in the could not, however, help regretting that the Chairman
discussion at the last Court, who had certainly put a had been placed in a most unfortunate position, because,
construction upon the!statement of the chairman which assuming for a moment that the epithets applied to the
by no means justified his being told that his conduct and Hon. Gentleman were not applicable to him, it would, at
that of his co-directors was repugnant to every all events, be admitted that he had been unfortunate in
principle of honesty or fair dealing, and a his words and expressions, if they had led to a misunder-
violation of good faith and the law of na- standing. It was a most extraordinary fact that in this
tions, and calculated to cast an indelible slur and Court when words were misunderstood, they were
stain upon the character of the Company.—(Hear, always misunderstood against the Proprietors and their
hear.) How could that be? The Hon. Gentleman stig- rights, and in favour of the Directors.—(Laughter.) One
matised their conduct in those terms because they would almost think that the words addressed from the
had not allowed the question to be discussed before they chair were intended to be misunderstood, but he ven-
came to a decision upon it. Why the Honourable Gen- Lured at the last meeting to warn the Proprietors that
tleman who introduced the resolution at the last Court they ought to discuss the matter fully then, for he was
entered into long arguments to prove the truth of his quite certain that when they came again they would be
position, and he was followed, true, not at great length, told it was too late; but the words of the Chairman
by a seconder, who insisted that, according to the laws no doubt intentionally induced the meeting to think
and usages of India, the heir of the late Raja ought to otherwise.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his Hon.
be adopted and acknowledged by the Court.—( Hear, Friend that the impression he and others went away
hear.) Well, then, these gentlemen, and every man with was, that the question was to be submitted to them
who attended the Court, had had an ample opportunity again before any fresh decision was come to upon it,
of giving their opinion upon the subject. At the last and it was a breach of good faith on the part of the Di-
Court, the fullest latitude was given to them for doing rectors not tc have kept that promise.—(Hear, hear.)
so, while the directors in no way attempted to stop the The CHAIRMAN—I trust the lion. and Learned Gen-
investigation. No doubt the directors were dis- tleman will not misinterpret what I did say, bat I will
posed to be influenced by that discussion as presently read to the Court what I said. I deny most posi-
far as its merits deserved, and he was Lively that I intended such a construction to be put upon
quite convinced they considered and duly weighed the my words as to lead to a belief that the question of the
arguments adduced, on the last occasion of their meeting, Raja of Sattara would be submitted to their
before they came to the resolution to send out the future consideration. Now this is what I did
dispatch ; and ho was satisfied they were undeserving of say, and whether the fact I have stated is
the vituperation which had been heaped upon them. correct or not the Proprietors will see. I should
Major OLIPHANT said, it appeared to him that there be ashamed of myself if I ever said a single
was very little difference of opinion amongst them on word holding out a deceptive belief. The whole
the point in dispute; but he could assure the proprietors conduct of my life will gainsay anything of the
that the majority of the gentlemen behind the bar would sort. I will read now to the Court what
the
ready and willing to give their reasons for the course I did say, and after that, I will not answer
s('-e y
h wasad n
3urosued when the Court met again. In the any further complaint that may be made.
wean time he might perhaps be allowed to state that Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE—It is exceedingly disagree-
therediffereuce of opinion in the Court of able to be interrupted in this way.
Directors upon the question, and as !the Chairman had The CHAIRMAN—I call you to order, because you
already consented to the production of the papers, he make a most unwarrantable attack upon me. This is
could see ;reason for any further discussion.—(Hear,) what was taken by the short-hand writer:—
Sir eJ. W. OGO agreed with his honourable col- elt is not my intention to reply to the statements and
Direction a
papers for ev there was no difference of opinion in arguments advanced as regards this case; when the pro-
thes to the propriety of producing the per time arrives I shall be ready to express my opinion
cry
pqmio, a gentleman,ndthenor:atter whether ain regard to the appropriation of the Sattara territory ; but
Proprietor or a Director,f was equally interested in fact lam nut prepared for it now. and therefore shall
in the settlement
therefore highly - desirable this question. It was not say a word in answer to the Hon. Proprietor. I
laid before the _, that the papers should be may state that the general question is sub judice. 4.11
tter disposed of as

WEDNESDAY EVEN:ING,

the documents are before the Directors, who will duly
consider them, I am sure, with every attention to
what is right and proper. I know they will act in
consistency with the expressed opinion of this Court,
that it is better to leave the matter at present in the
hands of the Executive whom the Proprietors have no-
minated. All, therefore, I have to say is, that it will
be in the recollection of the Court of Proprietors that,
no longer ago than two or three months, a motion was
made in substance precisely the same as this now
before the Court of Proprietors. Under these circum-
stances, I am quite sure that I shall have the support
of the Court in adopting the same course which was
then taken—moving the adjournment of the Court.
That is the course which was pursued on that occasion,
and certainly should again be followed, now the matter
is under the consideration of the Court of Directors. I
therefore move that this Court do now adjourn."
Now, if any Proprietor can put a construction upon that
to the effect that before the Court of Directors
came to any decision on the subject, it would be
submitted to the Proprietors, I cannot agree
with him. I had; no intention whatever to hold
out such an impression, for, as I said before, it would
have been unconstitutional for me to do so, as the Pro-
prietors have nothing lo do with the decision; and I must
c wiess that I am rather surprised that the Hun. and
Learned Proprietor should have attacked me in the
manner he has done.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN then rose to address the
Court, but vi as called to order by
The CHAIRMAN, who reminded him that Mr. Sergeant
Gazelee was in possession of the chair.
Mr. Sergeant GAZELEE, after complaining of the
unwarrantable interruption of the Deputy-Chairman,
and complimenting the Chairman for his impartial
conduct in putting his colleague down, proceeded to in-
sist, that with regard to the question of ictegrity and
honour ho stood upon an equal footing with the Chair-
man or any other member of the Court. The Chairman
had read them his speech from the short-hand writer's
notes, and he should be glad to know who it was that
paid for those notes, or whether the short-hand
writer was paid only for reporting the Directors,
or for reporting everything that occurred. If the latter,
he must say that some very garbled reports had been
made of his speeches, indeed in many instances his
speeches had been so altered that he did not know them
when he saw them again.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Now, with regard to the subject-matter in dispute,
he did not impute any improper motives to
the Chair, but he did maintain that the Chairman
had been placed in an unfortunate position by
his language at the last Court having been
misunderstood ; for, intentional or not, the:words ad-
dressed from the chair induced a belief that another occa-
sion woulal be afforded them for discussing the_question.
But he must be allowed to enter his protest against the
system which prevailed in that Court, whenever a
troublesome question came on, of the Chairman
moving an adjournment. He appreciated the value of
the entertainments and good :dinners given at
the East India House as much as any man,
but neither good dinners nor any other in-
ducement ought to lead to the shirking of this
question of the Raja of Sattara. It seemed to be
always arranged that whenever it came on the
Chairman should move an adjournment, and now they
were to be put down by being told that their cause was
a bad one becanse they did not keep their temper.
—(Hear, bear, and laughter.) Did they see him out of
temper? On the contrary, he was never more cheerful
and inclined to be good humoured in his life.—(Hear.)
Now came the question. Up rose Sir James Hogg, and
turned all this into fun; but what was fun to him was
death to the Raja of Sattara and his friends. Sir J.Hogg,
had very great tact in turning things into fun and ridi
cule, and that was the way in which the poor Raja of
Sattara and his affairs were treated. He (Mr.
Sergeant Gazelee) agreed with Sir J. Hogg, it
cptowoferptoarsiaiay:
the constitution of the Court of Directors
was bad, that it should be altered, and any o
the Directors were bad that they should be turned out
m‘ I‘
It
enwt Turna us
constituting oaslolt iut very well
h theefact for
Courtwatsh, omtsheaadmte intethnheeiA r se at s annual.
The Directors never gave him (Mr. Sergeant Gazelee)
any invitation to any of their grand dinners.—(Laugh
ter)—and he said from the bottom of his soul, turn
them out.—(Renewed laughter.) The more people saw
of the mockery of their proceedings the more would it be
seen to be necessary that honest and upright men
should be sent into the Court of Directors. Sir
When
J. Hogg likened the Court of Directors to the Foreign-
office of the House of Cotnwons, it was a very bad pre-
cedent. With great respect to him, he Mr. Sergeant
Gazelee) would suppose that Sir J. Hogg was a member
of a large constituency. Suppose a question of great
importance came on for discussion, would Sir J. Hogg
condescend to ask his constituents not to give up the re.
presentative character, for that would be treating it as a
matter of delegation, but to ask their advice ? He was
sure in such a case Sir J. Hogg would not say that the
way in which he would act would depend whether the
election was near at hand or not.—(Laughter.) Sup-
pose the question was one of education, would
he consider it as infra dig. to consult the Dissenters
upon it, or would he treat them, as he did

the Proprietors, as men of straw ? He (Sergeant
Gazelee) did not mean to say that the electors were to
control the votes of the representative, but he said every
man would not consult his constituents, and say " Mr.
So-and-so, you are the mover, and you, tMr. So-and-so,
are the seconder of my nomination, what are the wishes
of the constituency on such and such a question, I don't
mean to say it shall influence me; but just, it
you can, say what Mr. So-and so thinks,
and I don't thick, it will affect • my dignity
to attend to it." That was the whole question, It out
of the Directors held up his hand, fifty others of the Di-
rectors held up their hands immediately ; if one of them
cachinated, there were fifty others who cachinated im-
mediately. But if Sir J. Hogg could divert their atten-
tion from a matter by his fun, if he could make them
laugh and tut n them from the subject under consideration,
why his purpose was gained. Let the meeting contrast their
demeanour when in office with their deportment when,
as candidates, they came bowing and scraping to ask
the opinions and the suffrages of the Proprietors. When
those gentlemen got into the direction, was it to be
tolerated that they were to treat the Proprietors with
contumely. He cautioned the Proprietors not to be mis-
led ; the Directors were endeavouring to put this matter
on a false point ; they were misinterpreting Mr.
Hume's words, and were endeavouring to make
the Proprietors believe that they, the Proprietors,
wanted to take upon them the settlement of this ques-
tion. Even if the Proprietors were willing to do this,
why they would be swamped by the influence of the
body of Directors, and there would be an end of the
matter. He (Mr. Serjeant Gazelee) claimed it as a
right, not to dictate to the Directors, but to give his
opinion. They might treat his opinion with contempt.
but all he asked and prayed for was, that they should
do him the favour of listening to that opinion, which
was fearlessly expressed. But let not the Proprietors
be misled; the attempt was not to alter the constitution
of the Court of Directors, but it was to advise in the
matter. He thought if the places were given away a
Attie more according to merit, and less according
to nepotism, the Directors would come out of
these matters with a great deal more credit,
and the Proprietors would not be laughed at. He be-
lieved the Chairman to be a most honourable man.
He (Mr. Sergeant Gazelee) believed he had no sinister
intention; but he said it was a little unfortunate that
he led the Proprietors to believe that before the matter
was settled they should be called together, not to dictate.
but to advise in the matter.
An Hort. PROPRIETOR said it might be in the
recollection of the Chairman of the Court of Directors
that he was present at the last meeting, and that he
then made a suggestion after the Chairman's amend-
ment, a hich the meeting was pleased to approve of, and
stated themselves ready to adopt; and therefore he was
now anxious, particularly if Mr. Hume should be present,
to state his views of what really took place, which
he was bound to state as an independent proprietor
fully confirmed the report which the Secretary
had been pleased to read. He should be very brief in
the observations he had to make, because really it could
be stated in a minute. There was a motion made by
Mr. Lewis, and seconded by some other gentleman, after
which the Chairman immediately moved the adjourn-
ment of the Court, in the words reported, as nearly as
possible, by the Chairman himself. There was then some
discussion as to a matter of form only, and on that
he (the Hon. Proprietor) suggested to Mr. Lewis and
the seconder of the then motion to withdraw it.--ealear,
hear.) He made that suggestion, because the. Chai-
rman's amendment would then, as a matter of course, fall
to the ground. What then took place? If, as Mr.
Hume supposed, the Chairman had made his
amendment with the intention that the Di-
rectors would prepare the papers and lay them be-
fore the Proprietors, was it credible that the mover
and seconder would have immediately withdrawn their
motion? , Theyi, continued the discussion; for some
time aferwards. Therefore he (the Hon. Proprietor)
hoped, at least, after what he had stated, his Learned
Friend, Mr. Sergeant Gazelee, would see he must have
been altogether mistaken about the matter. Surely,
after the statement now made, his Learned
Friend would retract anything be had said
harshly of the Chairman. (the Hong Proprietor) had
no interest in the matter further than to see that dis-
cussions of this kind among the Court of Directors and
the bodylof Proprietors were conducted with decency and
propriety.—( Hear.) It might be Mr. Sergeant Gazelee was
a candidate for the directorship,—(Laughter.) ge
could not say wether that was so or not, but at present
he (the Hon. Proprietor) thought he, Mr. Sergeant
Gazelee, had rather confounded the two characters of
proprietor and director.
Mr. LEWIS thought the sooner the discussion was
dropped the better; but there was one question which
he wished to put to the Chairman. Mr. Clarke had
asked
~the Chairman at the last meeting whether or
not he had referred the question to Mr. Elphinstone?
The meeting all knew that Mr. Elphinstone was a per-
son competent to decide that question, and therefore it
was necessary to see what his opinion was, both as to
the construction of the treaty, and as to the position of
the parties. He (Mr. Lewis) wished to know whether
the Chairman had done so?
A PROPRIETOR said that it was a most extraordinary
thing that those who propounded the laws should have
the power to explain them. It was for the judges to
explain the laws, and not the Directors.
The CHAIRMAN said when the Proprietors saw the
papers they would see whether Mr. Elphinstone's name
was mentioned or not. He could not answer the ques-
tion further.

Mr. LEwrs thought the Chairman would find that
to be the opinion of the meeting. The public would be
startled to think that this question had been argued
without reference to Mr. Elphinstone, and that the thing
had been concluded without his being consulted.
Mr. Ilutue's motion, that the papers be printed And
circulated amongst the Proprietors, was then put to the
meeting and carried.
The Court then adjourned.

FEBRUARY 7, 1849.

guage used by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he
felt convinced that the House would not shrink from its duty
in granting relief to the poor of Ireland. But, although he
felt grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the
solicitude he had expressed on their behalf, and for the ready
manner in which he had come forward, he believed that the
proposition was in itself wrong, and was calculated to take
away the energy and self-denial of the people. The re-
sources of the cauntry were amply sufficient, if developed, to
enable the people of Ireland to maintain their own poor,
and what he contended ought to be done was, to pass some
measure to bring about such a result. By making advances
for the cultivation and improvement of the land the ener-
gies of the people might be stimulated, and the resources of
the country fully brought out.
Sir J. WALSH said the House had been called upon to
vote upon no question which involved considerations of
greater pain and difficulty than did that on the pre-
sent occasion.—(Hear.) When they had a deficient revenue,
and when many classes were involved in deep distress, and
were struggling under great privations, it was the bounden
duty of representatives to exercise the strictest vigilance
before they acceded to this vote. What assurance had they
after their repeated sacrifices on behalf of Ireland that the
condition of the country would be improved, and that they
would not be called upon again to pursue the same J
line of conduct and vote further sums of money ?
He was convinced that no good could ever be done un!ess
there should be a revision of the principle of the poor-law,
and that that principle should be approached in a spirit of
conviction that great' mistakes had been made in the
constitution of the Irish poor-law. The Irish law had,
he felt assured, been productive of only one decided
effect, and Vast effect was the pauperization of the
whole of the country. He could not understand hew
the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) had arrived
at his conclusions. It seemed, indeed, most strange to him
that the charging the arrears of the poor-laws upon the land
could have any other effect than that of continually depre-
ciating the property which was the most stable in its cha•
racter and most permanent in its value.—(Hear, hear.) To
him it appeared perfectly clear that the more they imposed
burdens upon land already allowed to be wrought out
of all profit, and on which there was now evidently
no stock to distrain, the more difficulties they would
have to encounter. What, then, was this grant? Why,
nothing more than a vain attempt to bolster up this
system which contained within itself, without any further
admixture, the seeds of its own destruction. (The Hon.
Baronet then read from the evidence of the late Committee
a number of instances to show that he was borne out in his
assertion that the system had only been hitherto productive
of evil.) They were doling out little insignificant sums
which were fitted to postpone a conclusion, but which" were
in fact only instrumental in aggravating the mischief of the
end at which they were sure to arrive if they continued this
poor-law in Ireland.—(Hear.) Heavily as the resources
of England were taxed, and necessary as it was to economise
the means at their command to the utmost, he did believe
that it would be not only a wise policy but the truest
economy to advance such a sum as would at once rescue that
unhappy land from the distress in which it was immersed.
But convinced that such a paltry pittance, sufficient to con-
tinue what he belived to be a great evil, but totally inade-
quate to permanently deliver a fine country from any of those
miseries to which they had been so long subjected—thinking
this to be the case, he felt compelled to throw upon the Go-
vernment the whole of the responsibility of this unwise and
impolitic attempt, and should give the measure all the oppo-
sition in his power.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord EDWARD HOWARD said that as the representa-
tive cf a borough in a district which was not only purely
agricultural as to its character, but also singularly poor in
its circumstances, he felt compelled to say a few words upon
the subjeot before the House. He did not intend
to enter upon the details which had already been
so largely dealt in from all sides of the
House, and especially from those gentlemen who
came from Ireland— such a contrariety of state-
ment that no reliance could possibly be placed upon merely
barren assertions. But, taking the broad principle of the
necessity of relief where urgent and immovable distress ex-
isted, when he saw Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite ride of
the House deprecating that relief, he was obliged to contra-
dict the declaration, that Ireland was continually coming as
a beggar to that House to help it out of its distress.
During the last winter, in ;;.his district, the ut-
most want had been endured, but it had been
endured with a tranquillity and calmness which was equally
honourable to the peasantry and those who were above them.
He wished to be no advocate for rebellion—he was no apo-
logist for insurrection ; but of this he must warn the House,
that this tranquillity might be tried too long. The Irish
might be idle--and be was, with all regret, compelled to say
so, that they were idle in their own country—but was it not
notorious that they were proportionably industrious and able
elsewhere? He was always convinced that in order to get out
of any man a fair day's work they must give him something to
work upon.—((sheers.) Let them remember that patience
might be tried too long, and that if driven by distress there
was a possibility that more money would be required to pay
the troops and support the police, than was now asked for to
save the people from starvation.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that a new era had arisen upon Ireland, and that the
landlords had commenced upon a new plan of proceeding,
and that the money now sought for would be well and judi-
ciously expended.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HUME (who had previously risen), said that he did
not regret that he had given way to the Noble Lord, but he
must remind the 'Noble Lord that the money which had
formerly been advanced for the relief of the distress in Ire-
land had notoriously been applied to the very purpose
which he now so much deprecated—for the purpose of re-
bellion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He did not blame the
landlords of Ireland. There was no class of men whose posi-
tion he more deeply or sincerely commiserated, and whose
position he verily believed had been occasioned in a great
measure, if not entirely, by the false legislation of this country.
Some of the landlords might not have done their duty, but,
upon the whole, lie believed they were not so culpable as
they had been represented.—(Hear, hear.) No mau had
lifted his voice more frequently or more strenuously
against this bad legislation than he had, and he would
not on that account have opposed this grant. But he
opposed it on principle, and he was firmly convinced that
the advance of money from this country had no other effect
than that of dislocating all the bonds of society. He opposed this
grant on principle, because whenever relief was proposed it
had always been declared that remedial measures should
accompany every such grant. Those remedial measures had
not been introduced, and therefore he opposed, and always
should oppose, any such grant.—(Bear, hear.) Lie opposed
it on principle, for the first step was the great mischief.
Evil only had followed from these grants. What he wanted
was that Ireland should support her own poor. What was
the case? Why he found that the average rating of
Ireland was only, during the last year, 2s. 9d. in the
pound, while he himself lived in a parish (Whittlebury, in
Norfolk, we un:lerstood) in which the rating for the poor was
16s. 6d. in the pound. To Ireland the amount granted last
year in aid of the poor-rates was 231,4311. In Ulster the
assessment had been is. 10d., while the money collected had
only been
.Is. Bd. • in Munster the assessment had been
3s. 10i1., and the money collected 3s. ;in Leinster
the assessment was 2s. 40., the amount collected 3s. 2d. ;
and in Connaught the assessment was ss. 7d., while the
money collected was barely two shillings. Granting first
one sum after another was plainly not of the slightest
benefit to the people of Ireland, but was, on the contrary, far
more injurious than beneficial, tending only to demoralise
the people, and impoverish the whole country. They must
remember that they were but stewards of the public money,
and that it was their positive duty to resist the motion of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. A. STAFFORD, after paying a handsome compliment
to Lord Edward Howard for his speech, said that
before that Noble Lord complained of the conduct of
the Gentlemen on his side of the House he should re-
collect what their conduct had been. Since he came
into the House he had taken the trouble to cast up the
statements, and he found that thirty-one unions in Ireland
were in great difficulty, and twenty in a state of absolute
bankruptcy. These twenty unions contained not less
a population than a million and a half.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) had amalgamated the rates
in the provinces of Ulster and Connaught, and had produced
a result which gave no idea of the average amount of rating
in Ireland. It reminded him of an anecdote told of an old
gentleman, 70 years old, who made an offer of marriage
to a young lady of 20. She objected on the
score of age, " but," said the old gentleman, " when
we are united, our average age will be 45."—(Laughter.)
He had no hesitation in stating that every grant of this kind
would propitiate instead of alleviating the miseries of Ire-
land. —(Hear. hear.) The area of taxation was at the root
of all evils in Ireland, and until they considered that subject,
and with the view to an alteration in the poor-law, they
might grant loans to double the amount of the national debt
without producing any good effect.—(Cheers.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE alluded to the opinions expressed
by lion. Members, and said they might turn and twist the
question as they chose, but they could not prevent them-
selves coming to the conclusion that the grant was neces-
sary if they wished to preserve the lives of the people.
He believed that not one of the remedies propounded to-day,
if it had been adopted at an earlier period, would have pre-
vented the Government from coming down to the House and
making the proposition now under discussion.—(Hear.)
Ireland was, at this moment, suffering under the greatest
calamity which could befal any country—the article of
food upon which the chief part of the population
subsisted had been destroyed for three consecutive years.—
(Hear, hear.) Then, under these circumstances, what were
they to do? The evils of Ireland could not be remedied all
of a sudden; the process, whatever it might be, must neces-
sarily be of long duration, and if temporary aid
was not given in the meantime the destruc-
tion of a vast amount of human life would
be the consequence. If loans were given upon the repro-
ductive system, as recommended by the Hon. Member for
Stroud, he believed that a much greater amount of money
would be required than was anticipated by the House. He
would state one fact, and leave the House to draw its own
conclusion from it—viz., that under the Labour Relief Act
as many as 700,000 able-bodied persons were under the em-
ploy and pay of the Government, and if the reproductive
plans proposed were carried out, it might with great reason
be expected that the persons seeking relief would be treble
that number.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever result might be ar-
rived at, he trusted that, at all events, the amendment would
not be assented to. He believed, if the generosity of the House
did not step in, a loss of life would ensue which would be
dreadful to contemplate. But he felt, however, perfectly
convinced that the Members of that House, and the British
people out of doors, would not offer any opposition to the
resolution proposed by his Right Hon. Friend.—(Hear.)
Mr. HERBERT said if the House rejected the motion it
would, in fact, amount to a sentence of death upon a great
number of people. He had spent ten days upon a reliefe
Committee in Ireland in endeavouring to bring abouotunsom ,
unity of action among the landlords of that country.
try
but he found that it was utterly impossible to s accomplish
Wm
that object while the area of taxation remained it
In fact, that was at the root of most of the
country, and while that remained all plans o
end in no permanent benefit.—(Hear.) f evils
r eli e
fi in
would that
of Mthre.
EEx.
eßh.e
mr
up pl e
question was whethert
1 immediate remedy
Ireland, but because it was theon y
qrjer,linEotsbupecpaoursteeditthevfmasottrbone of the erCemhaendcyelfloorr
and without any means of
a large body o
food
proposed for the relief of the existingf
people in
aThbeans
district of Ireland, without
support, were to have any assistance em,
of her Majesty's Government were
and if the proposition wouldbe affooardtehde tsohouthlders
hear.)
of those who rejected it.—(Hear,
if the Hon.
Sir G. GREY said that Member for not passed the responsibility
North-
amptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had come down to the House
with any sufficient data respecting the area of taxation, they
might, with some probabi ity of being effective, have
brought in a Bill for regulating the areas of the
townlands ; but he might state what he had
a nd been
there
receivedere w
as ,
in related
fact
said the other night, that this was not the subject before the
all.'
partfh e
or et )
theor t which
country,had
only
yusteo aa small t
a power under the poor-law as at present constituted to re: gulate these areas. He, therefore, thought that the
Honourable Member had not acted with his usual fairness,e
Mr. HERBERT explained that he only alluded to his
own union.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that looking at the circumstances
which had been proclaimed on the official responsibility of
the Government, he felt convinced that the grant which
had been propoied w inevitable.—(llear, hear.) To

the propositions of the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. 4
Scrope) he decidedly objected. He objected, in the first
._, sr i• ..*I..- %
place, to the grant being made in the shape of a e• . , 4,4 IN
because he firmly believed that it would bL .. •
gether impossible to reclaim the money, and woule4, , . , H1i1"-
loading Ireland with additional burdens to th • it' .L.:2-2—, --:,„...,\c'
she was now found quite incompetent to , !:, - ~1/ mjr-:,(,st, -,,'`--1:'!!---- -
objected to the second proposition, that t,
_V '., , ,is--,0:.:,4 '-: • , should be be applied to works of reproductive 1 -- , tie.,-i,..-*v4k:f_i ,"",./,A1
duerso:pithuatidonaiwiedas
thgie.#l4or -- and---ik- la
sxja v
cause ha found it on the records of th • ' atle-‘':'•'----,- - :-s
men who had supplied the reports on w• h \ .tlie ' -__L--_,-.--,/
the last two years.
t,
Governmenttiroream ediab
greaterle aewerexndte
extent
thattithgathnt
the
eapvtoettnahteoduring
He gave her Majesty's Ministers credit for the sin.
cerity of their assertions, ho believed that they were
soundly informed, and the attempt to apply Bush a prin.
ciple would be neither more nor less than a sentence of death
against multitudes. Then, again, they had the experience
of a place not very far from that of the disadvantage of
national workships.—(Hear, hear,) For these reasons be
Houseshould. decidedly
while o pvpootsi
ne g tfhoer: tam
epnrodpmoesnittiotuhoefnthbeefGoorevethrue.
ment, he must decidedly say that it was the last time he would
vote for
.any such grant.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and "Hear,
hear.") The very Lst time; for, as remedy was to
be their rule, he thought the time was fully come
when it was their imperative duty to review the
whole system of the local taxation of Ireland. The last
time he should % say, because he believed that Ireland,
with her resources, was fully capable of supporting her own
poor. When be recollected the different circumstances
in which that country was placed, when be re-
membered that Ireland was free from any tax on
property, that IrelaLd Noss free from any of the assessed
taxes, that with a, perhays, too improvident readiness
duties to the amount of 120,0001. a year had
been remitted on spirits manufactured in Ire-
land, he did feel that if the poor-rate was
insufficient a rate in aid was inevitable, and that that
rate must be collected in Ireland.—(.gear, hear, and cheere.)
For these reasons he should oppose t)ie amendment of the
Hon. Member for Stroud, and vote for the grant proposed by
her Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. FAGAN supported the motion. It'e was surprised
that any Member of the House of Commons should ob-
ject to the vote, which was so imperiously called for ;
and he was especially surprised at the ,lourse that
had been pursued by the Hon. Member for ilontrose.
He felt convinced that the vote proposed would not be ade-
quate for the purposes intended, but he was glad to sot that
Ministers were taking steps in the right direction.
Mr. DISRAELI trusted that Ministers would not call Won
the House this evening to give a vote upon this subject
He trusted that the Noble Lord would rise in his place and
appoint another day for the further discussion of this
question, as sufficient time had not been given to consider it
properly. He could not agree with the statement that
had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Dorsetshire, that this would be the last vote they would be
called upon to give with reference to this subject.--(Hear,
hear.) If the Government would state that this was the last
vote that would be taken on the subject, he had no doubt that
they would come to a satisfactory conclusion. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had made his statements
from manuscript, and that was a reason why further
time should be given to consider the subject. iVhatever
others might consider of this grant, it was his opinion that
the question involved in it was, not only whether the people
of England should pay their own poor-rates but those of the
people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government would appoint an early
day for the further consideration of this important subject.,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the consideration that
had been stated by the Honourable Gentleman the Member
for Buckingham that the papers connected with this
proposition had been only till very lately in the hands
of Members, was a reason why the further consideration
of this vote should be postponed.—(Hear, hear.)
On the othor hand, he begged to state that, it had
been considered by her Majesty's Government to be
their duty to state to the House, as early as
possible, what it was their intention to do on
the importrnt subject.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to
the subject itself he thought the Honourable Gentle-
man had hardly stated the question fairly to Ireland,
when he stated that it was a question whether
the people of England were to pay the poor-rates of
Ireland as well as those of their own country. When
the matter came on again, he should be prepared
to state more in detail his opinions on the subject, but he
could not say that this would be the last vote the
House would be called upon to give on this sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) As a Minister of the Crown, he
would not bind himself to any such assertion.—(Hear,
hear.) Nor would he say that a comprehensive measure
had been prepared to obviate the necessity for applying
to Parliament for any further grant being asked for.—(Hear,
hear.) He !would keep himself free upon that; subject
—(Hear, hear) because circumstances might occur
that would render it imperative upon him to ask
for further aid.--(Hear, hear.) This, however, he would
say, that her Majesty's Government had considered what
amendments should be made to the poor-law, and when the
Committee met on the poor-law he should be prepared to
state his views and opinions to that Committee.—(Hear.)
He would not say that those opinions might not be
modified by the suggestions of Hon. Members for Ireland,
but when he knew the determination of the Committee, hs
would propose to:the House what he thought necessary on the
subject.—Hear, hear.) He considered this vote necessary,
and he felt no doubt the House would sanction it.—(Hear.)
He had no objection to (postpone the consideration of this
question to Friday next, as he could appoint no other day at
present to consider it.— (Hear, hear.)
The debate was then adjourned to Friday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Six o'clock.

THB BUTLER DIVORCE CASE.—PHILADELPIIII,
JAN. 22.—A decision has at length been given in the Butler
divorce case, by the Judges of the Court of Common Pleas of
the city and county of Philadelphia. The decree of the Court
was delivered by Judge King, senior judge of the Court ;and
that decision is in favour of ➢irs. Butler. The document
read by the Judge is of great length, but the whole may be
summed up in the following brief sentence :—The Court de-
crees that it will not give any final decision in relation to the
divorce prayed by Pierce Butler against his wife, Frances
Anne (Fanny Kemble) Butler; and that the matter sha
and may be sent before a jury in the Court of Common
Pleas, there to be tried, and final issue given. This decree
has given evident satisfaction to the public of this city.
Last week ten puncheons of whisky were shipped
from a celebrated distillery in this neighbourhood for Cali-
fornia l— Tipperary Free Press.