The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-28 00:00:00

NOLDS, JUN.

Mr. BATESON wished to ask whether there was any
truth in the roport that a young gentleman under age,
the on of Mr. Reynolds, a solicitor of Ireland, had been
appointed Solicitor for the Mint in that country.
'I he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No,
sir.—(Great laughter.) The Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was proceeding to make some further
observations when he was restrained ; but as
soon as the laughter which had convulsed the
House had subsided he rose, and stated that the
offices of Solicitor for Ireland and Solicitor for
the Mint in that country hgd bees consolidated, and
that he believed that young Mr. Reynolds was not com-
petent to take the position of a solicitor. He had cer-
tainly recommended him to be appointed to the situation
of a clerk in the solicitor's office, and he believed that he
was so appointed.—(Hear, hear.)

PAPER. FROM THE FOREIGN DEPARTMENT.

Mr. URQUHART wished to asked the Noble Lord
the Secretary fur the Foreign Department, what was
the rcaeen why the papers which he had promised in
part six weeks ago had not sooner been laid on the table
of the House.

Lord PALMERSTON said that he Lad not presented
these papers owing to a difficulty in getting them toge-
ther; but as soon as he could procure them from the
hands of the printer, they should be laid on the table of
the House.

Mr. URQUIIART said that the Noble Lord had not
answered his question and stated the reason of the delay.

Lord PALAERSTON said that he had promised the
papers in part, that is, abstracts from them; but circum-
stances had so transpired that he was enabled to give
them in toto; and of course it was clear that more time
was required to give the whole than only a part of the
doeuments.—(hear, hear,):
SICILIAN AFFAIRS.

Mr. BANKES wished to ask whether the Noble
Lord had received any information respecting the
progress of affairs in Sicily ?
Lord PALMERSTON bad not received any such in-
formation.
SEIZURE OF THE BOMBAY STEAMER.

Mr. DISRAELI said, it would bo in the recollection
of the House, that some time since a steamer called the
Bombay, which had been bought or was, at least, engaged
in the seivice'of the Sioiliaa insurgents, had been seized.
le wished to know' whether there was any truth in the
report that the Government contemplated giving the
agents of the insurrectionary committee any assist-
ance in the liberation of the vessel.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the law officers of the
Crown, to whom an appeal had been made, had not given
their opinion, but shuuld it express any decision that
the detention was illegal, every assistance would be
given for its liberation; but at present they had no
grounds to believe it illegal.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.

Lord J. RUSSELL postponed the further proceedings
on this Bill to Monday se'nnight.

1),00It-LAWS (lIZELAND)—HATE IN AID BILL.
After a short discussion, the House went into Commit-
tee On this Bill; Mr. BERNAL ins the Chair.
On the question that the first clause stand part of the
Bill,
Sir H. W. BARRON cornpained of the great in-
justice of the measure towards the rate-payers of
Ireland, and expressed his surprise at the temerity of
the Government in bringing forward such a Mea-
sure. He was not opposed to a poor-rate;
so far from it he had proposed a measure on
the subject long before the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government had thought of it. He was
surprised that the Government had not brought for-
ward such a measure as the present, when their
own Commissioners had reported that the
rate-payers could bear no additonal burdens.
Now he might be asked where the resources for the
support of the Irish It or in default of this mQasura were
to be derived from? Why that question had been an-
swered in the true Irish fashion by Mr. Twistleton him-
self, who called upon Government to tell him how a
people could support themselves who had for the last two
or three years been d..pendent upon the contributions
of England. Government had not condescended to reply
to that query, but still the question was a very pertinent
one, and for the want of an opinion from her Majesty's
Government, he would undertake to supply the defi-
ciency himself. A people in that state suggested by Mr.
Twisleton cou'd only return t,-) a position of self- depen-
dence by stsges'and degrees; and unless Government were
Iprepared to make further grants to Ireland, they never
would succeed in carrying such a measure as this into
effc.et. Some immediate temporary aid must be afforded
to the people of tlrel4nd, or they would be unable to

overcome the difficulles that already encompassed
them. This rate in aid would not alone relieve them; on
the contrary. it would have the effect of demoralising them,
and, considering the unjustness of the 'principle upon
which it was based, ho for one was not surprised that it
had met with so much opposition in the sister kingdom.
The taxes from which Ireland suffered so much were
such that English proprietors had no concep►ion of
them. They talked about the three per cent. of the
income-tax. hat the fact was, that taking the rateable
property of Ireland at thirteen millions, they would find
that it was taxed at the rate of nine per cent.
Were they surprised, then, that those who were subject
to distress, poverty, and destitution should raise their
voice against the injustice of this new infliction.
They were about to try a fearful experiment, and they
should not flatter themselves that if it ended
in ruin, as he thought it would, they
would alone crucify and destroy property in Ireland, for
they themselves must be entombed in the same destruc-
tion. He, therefore, thought that it was the duty of
the House and the Government to stem the torrent of
ruin which inevitably awaited them. No less than
7,000 or 8,000 men were employed in collect-
ing poor•rates in Ireland, among whom there
were e'ghteen captains, 120 subalterns, and a number
of field-officers, besides largo numbers of the police.
When they saw landed proprietors in poverty,
farmers seeking the shelter of the workhouse,
masses of the people dying of hunger, it was
full time for the representatives of Ireland to
appeal to the justice of England not to place
a new tax upon an already impoverished country.
Take an estate rated at 1,000/., the collection would cost
501. a 3 ear; 2501, for charges and family inheritances;
3s. in the pound, or 150/., for other charges; and further
3s. in the pound the estimated loss from bad tenants—
altogether 6001. a year, leaving but 400/. Then, this
new rate would deduct 251. more from this miserably
a►nsll stipend. This he believed was a fair average case.
After the miseries of Ireland, the failure of her potato
crop, was this a fitting time to inflict a new tax upon
an impoverished people? Therefore he should oppose in
every shape the imposition of a tax fraught with so much
mischief.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.

On clause 1 Ewing real,
Capt. JONES moved the omission of the words, " to
fix and declare from time to time certain sums." The
persons who paid that rate in aid, he submitted,
did not determine the amount or manner in which it
was expended, and had been no parties whatever to the
proposal for that rate in aid.
Mr. G. A. ILIMELTON said, that as the clause now
stood it would have the efnct of imposing a rate of 6:1.
in the pound upon the very persons for whose behalf
the rate was to be levied. lie should support the amend-
ment of his Gallant Friend near him.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not deny the troth
of some of the observations made by Honourable
Gentlemen opposite with regard to the destitution which
prevailed in some of the Irish unions; but he must at
the same time deprecate the use of language which
would imply that England bad not done its best to re-
lieve the sufferings of the Irish population. When ho
heard it said that England did nothing for Ireland, he
weuld only point to the advance of upwards of nine
millions sterling'. The case, however, was this; that
there did prevail, unfortunately, in the prelent year. as
there had before, a deep end extensive distress, arising
from the failure of the food. The House of Commons
was not inclined, he was sure, to meet the diraculty by
new advances; and, therefore, he would how. unless
this Bill was to be carried, they could provide for what
would occur between the Ist of May and the Ist ef August.
The House having resolved in favour of this rate in aid,
resolved upon it at its second reading, he asked the
Committee to allow the Bill. lie did not say scything
about the dera.dfel state of things which prevailed in
some of the unions, except that where it would be diffi
cult, if not impossible to collect it, it would nut be col-
lected. If it were suggested that the Government should
give a list, and should mention the names of the netons
in which the rate would be collected, he would only
answer, that supposing they were to do so it would be
obvious that in the course of a week or a fortnight, other
unions not then included would have to be included.—
(Hear, hear.) Therefore, without going further into
the arguments, he would ask the Committee to adopt
the words, carrying the rate in aid. He did not mean
to say but that many circumstances might contribute to
render the Bill disadvantageous in certain localities, but
in the present emergency it was the only resource left
them.—(Hear, hear.)
_ _

Mr..ec. STAFFORD said that the Noble Lord had
opened a very important question, by stating that in
many unions the sixpenny rate would be dispensed with.
.It was to be observed, with reference to that under-
standing, that the clause contained no discretionary or
dispensatory power by which the Commissioners coul'
exempt a distressed division from the collection of tido
rate.

Sir GEORGE GREY said ha thought that thwFlon.
Member for Northamptonshire had misapprehended the
answer of. his Noble Friend. An Hon. Mem6r asked
if tho rate could be collected in all the unions, and his
Noble Friend said frankly that it could not. The
dispensing power was by no means a neivi difficulty; on
the contrary it was one which necessarily attached to
many measures.

Lord CASTLEREAGH showed from a return of the
Financial Commission with respect to 13 unions in the
south and west of Ireland, includinc,. Bantry, Kenmore,
and Galway, that the income of those unions in 1848,
after deducting their expenditure and liabilities for
1849, would have a deficit of 378,2161. Taking the rate
in aid for those unions at its full amount of 6d. in the
pound, the rateable property would produce 329,6851.,
which would be inadequate to make up the deficit by
48,531/. What would take place in those unions was,
he believed, only a type of what would take place ge-
nerally.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS• said that of the 2,000
electoral divisions in Ireland, 539 did not pay five shil-
lings in the pound upon their assessed rating. He
thought it utterly hopeless to raise the sixpenny rate
generally, or to a sufficient extent, in addition to the
current expenses. He very much regretted that the
Chlirman's decision should have prevented him from-re-
commending the House to exempt certain unions•from
the rate, which he would hare named, because he could
not :Tree with the Noble Lord that that work would
prove interminable if once commenced. .
Sir GEORGE GREY said he understood.the amend-
ment to be substantially an objection, to the entire
clause.

Captain JONES said his objection was to tho entire
clause, but he wished to confine the discusiicn to one
point.

Sir R. FERGUSON recommended that they should
not divide upon words, l)qt take a division upon a sub-
stantial
said he wished to call the attention of
objection..
it
mr: sjo
the Government to the fact that, as the Bill now stood,
there were electoral divisions in Ireland which could
evade the payment of the rate in aid. What they should
do would be, to sell those estates which were liable to
the poor rate, but which could not be levied.
Sir ARTHUR BROOKE objected to the rate in aid,
which he thought never could be collected but by very
severe coercive means. He should prefer an income tax
upon fair principles, which ho should support.
Sir W. VERNER opposed the rate in aid altogether,
which he thouaht could never be collected in Ulster.
Mr. STAFFORD said, as an English Member, when
this Bill was proposed as a security for 100,000!., it was
his duty to see that it was as good security as possible.
He objected to the provision which gave a discretionary
power to the Poor law Commissioners to exempt unions
vioich wt re in difficulties from the payment of the rate.
Ile thought this ought to be levied as a separate rate.

the piThoecnioomn
ee stsiei
ed this
d vaitd
et
dh: swrhaetne
therein
rae.i da
pwp
eda n -
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he felt bound to concur in
mexitpter
danger the working of the a hole poor-law.
For the amendment
Against it
Majority for the clause • 53
Mr. FAGAN moved the following proviso: "--" Pro-
vided always, that the occupier of all rateable heredita-
ments in any union who shall not have any greater
estate or interest therein than a tenancy from year to
year, or who shall hold under a lease or leases, termi-
nable on th. the demise of one life, concurrent with
. trtys
atm years, or under a lease of years not exceeding thirty.
ono years, or under a lease fur one life without years I
concurrent therewith, shall be entitled to deduct from
the rent payable by him to his immediate lessor, the full
amount of all rates :and arrears of rate paid by him
under nod by virtue of this Act. Provided further, that
every person not an occupier as aforesaid, who shall pay
rent in respect of any land or tenements, shall not be
entitled to deduct from the rent paid by him, any
greater sum than a sum bearing such proportion to the
amount of rate deducted from the rent received by him,
as the rent paid by him bears to the rent received
by him."
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho wished to know from the
Chairman whether it was competent to discuss this pro-
posal, which appeared to be opposed to the principles of
the Bill and the existing poor-law.
The CHAIRMAN said he felt considerable difficulties
in answering the question, and would therefore decline
to express any positive opinion.
Sir G. GREY said that as the Bill was now drawn, it
would be impossible to insert this proviso.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he bad consulted the Speaker,
who thought that this clause would involve an alteration
of the poor-law, it would not he competent for the Corn-
mitte© to entertain it. The difficulty was whether it did
or did not.
Colonel DUNNE said that the point of form should
he decided. Who was to decide the question—the
Chairman or the Committee ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE thought that this proviso in-
volved an alteration in the existing law.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that no Committee of that
House was authorised to impose a tax or alter an exist-
ing tax without a previous resolution of the whole House.
The CHAIRMAN said he did not feel at all clear
upon the point, and could not express any definite opinion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that as the Chairman did not
seem to think the objection conclusive, he had no objec •
tion to discuss the clause on the merits.
Mr. P. S',.3ROPE said, he was of opinion that the tax
should be borne by the landlords, and not by the tenants
of Ireland, and he hoped it would go forth who were the
landlords who would generously come forward and bear
the tax themselves.
Major BLACKALL thought it would be unfair to
throw this rate upon the landlords. He should oppose
the amendment.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE opposed the amendment, and
trustee, under the circumstances, it would not be pressed
on he House.
Mr. HAMILTON also opposed the amendment.
Mr. REYNOLDS said it appeared to him that the
fair construction of the amendment was to throw the
rate is aid upon the landlords, and for that reason he
should nlpport it.—(H• stir, hear, and laughter.) During
the discussion on the present question lion. Gentlemen
on the opposite side opposed the measure, on the ground

that it would press so severely on the poor tenants. L?t
it go forth, he would say, to the people cf Ireland, who
had been implored in every possible way to petition
against the rate in aid—let it go forth to them that the
Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Fagan) proposed more to
relieve them by his amendment, and he (Mr. Reynolds)
wished, therefore, to test the sincerity of lion. Gentle-
men by seeing whether they would support that amend-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE thought it was very convenient for
Hon. Members who had visited their constituents during
the recess, and who had been lectured by them, to en-
deavour now to recover their lost popularity. He was
opposed to the opinions of the Hon. Member for Dublin
(Mr. Reynolds), and should vote against the amendment.
Mr. FOX thought when the ion. Member for Dublin
(Mr. Reynolds) was so staunch a supporter of the present
measure, ho ought to have been in his place to have
aided it by his vote.
Mr. REYNOLDS—I voted for it twice.
Mr. FOX would remind the Hon. Member that he
was not present at the last division. As to the amend-
ment now before the House, he (tlr. Fox) should cp-
pose it, as he saw no reason why the middlemen of
Irellncl should be exempted, who had to a great ex-
tent been the authors of the present misery of the coun-
try.—(hear, hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON hoped the House would support
the measure in the shape it had been brought forward by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland (Sir
W. Somerville).
Sir G. GREY, in answer to a remark of the Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir H. W. Barron), said he had always deprecated'
anv alteration in the incidents in the rate in aid and the
ordinary poor-rate.
Mr. SCULLY opposed the amendment.

Sir A. BROOKE would /cave it to the Hon. Membzr,
for Cork (Mr. Fagan) out her Zlajeaty's Government to
settle the question.—(Laughter.)
Mr. SHARMAN URAWFORD said ho would no't'
attempt to render a tax of such a nature palatable b
doing a greater injury.
Mr. KEOGH thought the Hon. Member for Cork
(Mr. -Pagan) should tell them what the clause he had
proposed meant.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Fagan's proviso l3
For the claaa®
Majority _BB

- -
Colonel DUNNE thought that it was unfair that
unions should be bound to support the poor belonging to
other unions, while the pour belonging to themselves
were in want of their necessary support: He then moved
tho following arnenlment:—. That the word in.' be
struck out in page 2, line 11, in order to insert the fol-
lowing words' viz., by a separate rate to be mage im-
mediately subsequent to."
Sir G. GREY said that no collision would be caused,
as had been implied by the Hun. and Gallant Gentle-
man (Colonel Dunne). Ho thought the present plan the
most effectual.

Mr. REYNOLDS said that when the TIOTIt Member
for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) asked what was the
security fir the 100,0001., he should say that at the time
that the peopll are dying of starvation, was such a ques-
tion to be put by one who pretended to bfi'an advocate
for the distressed con,lition of Ireland ? Ne knew from
experience the squalidness that prevailed" in the county
of Waterford.

Sir H. W. BARRON said that ruchjwas not the case,
as he had always employed all on hie estate, nod not
only those, but persons from other counties who came
into his property, and that he spent $,5001. in drainage.
Mr. STAFFORD said, tat the in aid would be
levied either with or without opposilion. If without op-
position, there could be no reason for not levying it by
itself. If it should be opposed,uten the attempt to col-
lect it in conjunction with the..nrdinary poor-law would
endanger the whole system. )1; was upon that state of
the case, he begged to inform, the Hon. Member for Dub-
lin, that ho intended to vlite for the amendment. In
reply to the Hon. MembeA'i inquiry as to the security
which he proposed to ofar for the vote of 100,0004, he
begged to state that it ls the income-tax against which
the Hon. Member voted fur' on a former evening, and,
by doing so, abeolveet+ienielf, and his relative (who, it
appeared, had beemappointed to a lucrative office under
the Governeuent),airom contributing to the relief of the
distresses of hie,- countrymen.
Mr. REYNIIIILDS deprecated the allusion which had
been made to appointment received by his son. His
son was intibted for the appointment solely to the
friendshipirOf the Master of the Mint, whom he (Mr.
ReYnolds) had known for 25 years. The office was,
he wnhl not say a contemptible one, but one which
weld; certainly of no great value —it was that
of a second assistant to the solicitor for the Mint.
iucs son was a gentleman by birth, education, and con •
t, and was entitled to be a solicitor if ho pleased.
The Hon. Member (Mr. Bateson), who had asked a
question about his son's appointment at an earlier
period of the evening, was probably angry because ho
(Mr. Reynolds) called him a captain on a former occa-
sion in consequence of his exhibiting the signs of the
av,litary profession. [ln order to make this and the suc-
ceeding observation intelligible to the reader, it is ne-
cessary to state that Mr. Bateson wears moustaches.]
In conclusion, ho would tell the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber—for gallant ho could not help calling him when he
looked at him—that if he meant', to give up the military
trade he ought to take down the signboard.
Mr. BATESON would not notice the personal obser-
vations of the Hon. Member, but would content himself
with asserting his right to put a question to a Minister
of the Crown respecting the appointment of the Hon.
Member's son to an office in the Mint.—(lleter, hear.)
If the young gentleman merited the panegyric which
his father had bestowed upon him, it was a pity that
ho should have sacrificed so hopeful a youth by plac-
ing him in a position which ho described as so con-
temptible.—(Hear, hear.)

After a few words from Mr. GROGAN and Major
BLACKALL, the Committee divided, when there ap-
peared--
For the amendment „, 35
Against it ...
... 113
Majority _7B
Upon the question that the clause stand part of the
Bill,
Mr. KEOGH dissented from the principle of the Bill
under consideration.

The second clause was then put and agreed to.
On the third clause being proposed,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAMFORD dissented from it,
observing that as the Bill involved a principle of taxa-
tion without representation he thought a naticnal board
ought to be appointed to exercise a control over the
disbursement of the money to ha levied under the Act.
lie thertfore proposed that a national board be ap-
pointed, to:i exerciao* such control as that to which he
alluded ovcr the funds to be raised.

The CHANCELL EXCHEQUEROR of the EXCHEQUER
the Hon. Member, with respect to the disbursement of
the money, that if any party more than another was
likely to be overhauled on the subject the Lords of the
Treasury were.
The Committee then divided on the amendment, and
the numbers were— _

For the amendment .. 19
Against it
Mqjority
Mr. GRATT.A.N, on our return to the gallery, was
addressing the Committee on the subject of emigration,
which he dis9pproved of, and said that he hoped the
efri.ct of legislation for Ireland might be to keep the
Irish people at home. The Hon. Member wished to
move a resolution to that effect, but—

Sic G. GREY, interrupting him, said it was too late,
as they had passed the part of the Bill et which it would
have been competent for him to do so.
The clause tvq.3 then agreed to without a division, as
was also the fourth, which is the last.

..- -
Mr. A. S...e&DAIR, moved a clause to the effect that
whenever a rate in aid should have been levied on any
union, and a sum drawn from the union on credit to
supply it, the occupier primarily liable might deduct the
ars amt from his immediate landlord.
Sir G. GREY opposed the clause for the same reason
09 be had opposed the clause proposed by the lion.
Member for Cork, to which it was exactly similar.
After a few words from Lord CASTLEREAGH,
Colonel DUNNE recommended the Hon. Member not
to press his motion.
Mr. ADAIR then withdrew his clause.

Colonel DUNNE said ho had three clauses to move,
but after hearing the debate ho did not think it neces-
sary to press his motion in the Committee.
Mr. ADAIR said he had three clauses to move rela.
the to the advances; but as be thought sufficient provi-
sion was made in the Bill he should not press them on
the Committee.

On the question of the preamble,
Sir J. YOUNG said he wished to call the attention
of the Committee to a misinterpretation of the evidence
of Mr. Twisleton, which he thought the lion. Member
for Dundalk had certainly made, the evidence in ques-
tion having reference to the distressed state of Ireland.
Mr. Twisleton admitted his having expressed an opinion
that the distressed unions could go on without assist-
trace; but that was always on the supposition that no
other measure could be adopted. Mr. Twisloton, above
all things, wished to remove the idea, if it exived, that
he at all considered the poor-law in Ireland to have
failed.

Mr. M'CULLAGLI said that if he had misinterpreted
Mr. Tvvisvlton's evidence ho was truly sorry for having
done so.

Captain JONES said he had understood that all the
money raised by the rate in aid was to be disposed of by
the Commiebionors. But, then, after the amendment of
the Hon. Member for Cork, he had much doubt upon it,
and should be glad to know from the Government whether
it was so or not.

Sir G. GREY said that the money raised by this Bill
would be subject to the same rules as that ut the disposal
of the Poor-law Commissioners.

The House then resumed, the Chairman reported
the Bill to the House, and the report was ordered to be
received to-morrow (this day).
.Lcrl JOHN RUSSELL said that, in consegimre et
the lateness of the hour, ho would not propose that the
Navy Estimates should be proceeded with that evening,
but only the Committee of Supply. He should propose,
OF°, that the third reading of the Rate in Aid Bill be
taken on Monday. __ _