The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-13 00:00:00

—by means of which, I think, we shall he throwing
away a large number of Members which other places
would gladly receive—places, ton, that have a fair claim
to the privilege, atti Itt'hith the Metropolis has hardly any
right to demand besides which, we shall thereby be
granting it a power, which, after some of the specimens
we have had of its late conduct, I cannot c,ntemplate
without the greatest alarm. Another pint on which I
have a strong feeling is, that of giCing single Members to
towns; and I ob:lett to this, because in my opinion! one
Member cannot properly represent the feelings of a large
body of constituents, and I should therefore, recommend
that the Whole of the boroughs should have two Members
a piece. There are other points to which I have consider-
able objection ; but, as I said before, my oNect in rising
was not for the purpose of entering; into oetaiis, but to
calm the heat which has already arisen on the question,
and to express a hope that matters may be so conciliated
as to make an arrangement that can be generally admitted.
An HON. MEMBER expressed his satisfaction that the
Nlinistry had not been betrayed into any unguarded conci-
liations or concessions,
Mr. HUNT thanked the Noble Lord for the Way in
which he had introduced the Bill : he had only mentioned
the representation of the people once during his speech of
an hour and a half. On former occasions all the talk was
about the representation of the people of England ; but
now the Noble Lord only spoke of the representation of
the intelligence and the property of the country. He was
happy that the Noble Lord had so fairly taken this dis-
tinction ; because he (Mr. Hunt) had no hesitation in
saying thus early, that the Bill (which was certainly im-
proved) would exclude nine-tenths of the male adult po-
pulation of the country from any share in the representa-
tion whatever. He should be a hypocrite were he to say that
this Bill would give satisfaction to the majority of the
people. As to schedule A, he did not care a farthing whe-
ther five boroughs were taken off it or put on to it; but he
was delighted to find that Calne was put into schedule
B. The most important measure, however, for the con-
sideration of the House was the 101. clause ; he thought
that the new arrangement would simplify that portion
of the Bill ; and he was very glad to find that the
payment of the rent was no longer insisted on. In his
opinion they might just as reasonably have demanded
that a man's butcher's or baker's bill should be paid ; and
indeed that was a point he had always complained of
grossly.—(Loud laughter.) On the whole, he thought
that all those who supported the late Bill had no reason
to be dissatisfied with the new one; and he, therefore,
trusted that the cuckoo cry of " the Bill, the whole Bill,
and nothing but the Bill," was blown into air; because
everybody must agree, that without any alteration in the
principle of the Bill, there had been a complete alteration
of the measure altogether.—(Shouts of laughter.) The
Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to abuse the Commis.
sinners, two of whom, lie said, had gone to Bolton, and
out of a population of 14,000 had only found six hundred
Ind eighty ten. pound houses. He concluded by hoping
that the Bill would give more satisfaction than he thought
it would.
Mr. LEADER objected to the limitation of the number
of Members for Ireland ; and he agreed with the Noble
Marquis that London was to have too many Members.
Sir C. FORBES objected to the mushroom town of
Brighton having two Members, while only one was given
t Aberdeen and Dundee. He disapproved of this Bib
as much as the former ; and the former he had thought a
monster that ought never to have shown its face in that
House.—(A laugh.)
Lord EBRINGTON would not have spoken, but
having been the humble instrument at the end of the last
session through which the House had expressed its con-
fidence in the Government, he felt anxious to say a few
words, in spite of the taunts which the Right Hon. Baro-
net had thrown upon the Noble Lord and the Bill which he
had just brought forward. The anxiety that he felt was
to express to that Noble Lord, and to the Government, his
grateful thanks for the manner in which he thought that
they hail redeemed their pledge, and entitled themselves to
_ _

. .•
that confidence which had been reposed in them by the
House on the occasion to which he had just alluded. had
they, however, made those changes which bad been called

for by his Noble Relative opposite, he could not have sup-
ported them, for he should have felt that they were in-
compatible with the pledges which they had given, and
that they were calling on the House to agree in a measure
inconsistent with that sanctioned by its own recorded
opinions.—(Cheers.) He was sure that with a measure
so brought forward the great body of the intelligence of
the country would not have been content ; while, on the
other hand, that which was now offered by the Noble
Lord was equal, for every good purpose, to the Bill of last
session ; the changes that were introduced being such as
would tend to simplify and improve the general operation
of the measure.--(Cheers.)

Mr. BARING admitted that it was desirable that this
question should he set at rest. There was no gentleman,
he was sore, who would provoke. unnecessary discussion
for the purposes of delay ; hut, at the same time, those
gentlemen who were sensible of the important question nt
issue could not waive their privilege of examining the
subject, and must be aware that a measure of so much
importance should not be allowed to pass without an
ample discussion. There was, undoubtedly, no reason,
because the country was looking, as he admitted it was,
with great anxiety to the Bill, and was desirous of hav-
ing whatever benefit it could bestow, that that anxiety
should prevent the House from giving to the Bill due de-
liberation, and induce them to pass the Bill without sub-
jecting it to a close examination. He had heard the
principal part of the Noble Lord's speech with satisfac.
Lion ; and, though he could not say there were many sub=
stantial alterations in the Bill, yet he hoped that the tone
of the Noble Lord's speech would be followed out by the
promoters of the Bill ; and the House would have the sa-
tisfaction of seeing—what was so very desirable—the spirit
of conciliation preside over all the discussions. Because
some persons cried out against discussion, that House was
not to pass the Bill in a lump without due con-
sideration. If that were the case, and the same
persons who protected them against the consequences
of the rash measure which was last brought forward,
should not forget what was due to themselves and the
country, it would be impossible that the present measure
should not have the same termination as the last.—( Hear,
hear.) It was a momentous question to alter the whole
Constitution of the country, and provide hereafter for its
Government ; and though he would give no pledge, he
would repeat, that he was sure it was the desire of the
gentlemen on that side, as well as the other—though it
was impossible to know more of the Bill than had been '
stated by the Noble Lord—that a Bill might come forth
out of the discussion which should satisfy all reasonable
parties. Undoubtedly it was true that a large portion of
the people were in favour of Reform, but at the same time
it was true, that among a respectable portion, if not nu-
merically great, yet in possession of great property—he
might say nine-tenths of all the vested interests of the
country—the greatest possible apprehensions prevailed.
If the measure were not fully discussed, these two classes
would not be pleased; and the result would be fatal, un-
satisfactory, and most prejudicial. He confessed that he
approved, as far as he understood them, of the greater part
of the changes made in the Bill ; but he was unable to
judge of them as a whole, from not having the Bill before
him. He would, therefore, only say, that he was de-
cidedly of opinion, that after such a sweeping measure of
Reform had been proposed—after the sweeping change
which had been brought forward by his Majesty's Minis-
ters—after the expectation which had been created, there
must also be great apprehension. He admitted that great
excitement prevailed, that great expectations had been
caused by the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers—( Hear)—
and that in consequence of this excitement, and its conse-
quence of what bad taken place, it was their duty to look
at the existing state of things, to take the wishes and opi-
nions of the people into consideration, instead of only con-
sidering what was abstractedly due to the Constitution,
and what would abstractedly be the best fir the country.
He must take the question in•o consideration on this prin-
ciple, and endeavour, in conclusion, to ascertain what was
likely to satisfy all parties. He hoped that the Bill might
do this. He had no objection to an early second reading
of the Bill, but as it could not be printed for some days,
decency required that five or six days should elapse after
the Bill was printed before it was read a second time.
Sir R. PEEL suggested, that it would be, at least, two
or three days before the Bill could be printed ; and if the
Noble Lord did not sit on Saturday, the discussion must
go into the next week.
Mr. BARING had no wish to delay the Bill. It was,
however, essential, that the details should he before the
House prior to the discussion. He thought the second
reading might, perhaps, be postponed till after Christmas,
with the understanding, that the House might go into the
Committee the day after the second reading was agreed to.
Lord ALTHORP was understood to state, that he pro-
posed that the House should meet on Saturday, as he hoped
that the debate might be terminated on that day.
Sir R. PEEL suggested that the second reading should
be postponed till Monday (Several voices, " Friday").
Lord ALTHORP would persist in proposing Friday.
The debate might extend far into the week if Monday were
appointed for the second reading.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the Bill would be
printed on Wednesday.
Col. SIBTHORPE objected to Friday being appointed
for the second reading. He was disappointed at the in-
significant declarations made by the Noble Lord, and

thought it was extremely hard to press such an ortjost 'mea-
sure so hastily formed. The only reason why it was earrird
with such breathless haste was, to secure the popularity
of Ministers: Ile wished for a full and fair opportunity
to consider this new me tsure.
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER thanked the Ministers
for the conciliatory measure they had brought forward ;
deolared that he should not be hostile to the second read-
ing, though he gave no pledge; and assured the Ministers
that his opposition had been given in no other than a con-
ciliatery spirit.
Sir RICHARD \TYVYAN wished that the Noble Lord
would take it into his consideration, that at this time it
*as of much importance that country gentlemen should he
in theit own counties. He pressed it on the Noble Lord
that it was essential to allow them a considerable recess at
Christmas.
Lord ALTHORP was aware of these circumstances,
and the impression on his mind was, that the House
ought to meet as early as possible after Christmas, and get
the business of the session done. Saturday, Jar.uary 7,
was the Saturday of Quarter Sessions week, and he thought
it would be advisable to meet on the Tuesday or Thursday
after that day.
Mr. SHEIL wished to ask a question about Ireland.
The Reform Bill of the last session gave Ireland five ad-
ditional Members, and Scotland also five, but it of erwards
gave three more to Scotland, while the number of English
Members was so diminished that the whole number did
not amount to 600. No other addition was given to
Ireland ; and when he had asked a question on this
subject of the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, the Noble Lord was advised not to answer.
What, was done by the present Bill ? Ireland Was
to have its five Members, Scotland its eight, and England
was to have a great increase of Members. Had Ireland,
then, not reason to complain ? He submitted to the
Government the propriety of re-considering the subject.
They formerly made a change as to Scotland, and he
hoped they wool,' find reason to make a change for Ire-
land. The anomalous course they had now adopted, was
likely to excite disappointment in Ireland. He wished to
know, too, what was to be done in Ireland as to the
Corporations? Aecording as he understood the prin-
ciple of the Bill, all those who bad votes in Corporations
now, whether derived from freedom or servitude, were to
be preserved in perpetuity. If that provision were to be ex•
tended to Ireland, and the freemen were to be preserved,
he wished to know if the forty-shilling freeholders were to
be also preserved in towns? When the Bill for Catholic
Emancipation was brought forward, with its accom-
panying measures, and when the forty-shilling freeholders
were abolished, those of the towns were preserved. He
wished to know if these forty-shilling freeholders were
now to be preserved ? At present Catholics were ex-
cluded from the Corporations of Dublin, Drogheda, and
all other Corporations in Ireland ; and if the forty-
shilling freeholders were also to he excluded, and if they
gave a perpetual right to those who had obtained it by
freedom or servitude, the result would be, that these
Corporations would be perpetually Protestant, and
would perpetually exclude Catholics. The Corpo-
ration of Dublin had always excluded Catholics, and the
result of this measure would be that Dublin would con-
tinue to exhibit the same scenes of religious discord and
rancour as at present.—(Hear, hear.) The Irish Mem-
bers were not tk, re to speak their ow❑ sentiments alone—
they were the representatives of the people, and obliged to
speak their sentiments. If, therefore, Ireland was agi-
tated and indignant, must not the Irish Members partici-
pate in agitation and the indignant feelings of their coun-
trymen ? The Government had found strenuous suppor-
ters in the Irish Alembers, and though he did not think it
right to call on the Government to sacrifice their duty to
the empire at large for the sake of Ireland, he did call on
them to take the case of Ireland into their serious and pe-
culiar consideration.
Lord CLIVE referred to the speech of the Noble Lord
who bad introduced the subject with satisfaction. He felt
it necessary, in the present state of the country, that
something should be done to satisfy the people ; and he con-
gratulated himself at the steps taken by the Noble
Lord, and he hoped and trusted that the spirit evinced
by the Noble Lord would be met by a corres-
ponding disposition. The alterations of the Bil
would make it more acceptable than it was before,
The first alteration of the Bill related to the 10,

householders. As be understood the former Bill, there
was nothing to indicate that the 10/. voters were persons
actually renting 10/. houses. The present proposition of
the Noble Lord established a criterion of property, and
made the 10/. franchise a test of property. The second
point to which he would advert was the appointment of
the Commissioners to decide the limits of the boroughs and
cities. That was one of the most objectionable parts of
the last Bill, and he was glad to observe that by the pre-
sent Bill, those limits were to be decided in the proper
place. The third point was even more important. lie
understood that by the present Bill the rights of freemen
in cities and boroughs were to be preserved in perpetuity,
which he considered of great advantage. He regretted
that the Bill did not diminish the proposed metropolitan
representation. At the same time, as there was a neces-
sity for some Reform, he was gratified to find that there
was an approximation among those who were opposed, and
those who were friendly to the Bill. He owed it to him-
self to express the satisfaction he felt, and the gratifica-
tion he had received, from the manner in which the Bill
had been introduced.At the same time, he begged it might
be understood that be gave no pledge either way.
Mr. PORTMAN could not help congratulating the
House and the country at the prospect which there was
of a speedy settlement of this great question. He en-
treated his Noble Friend not to follow the suggestion of i

the Right Hon. Baronet—(Hear, hear)—and read the Bill
a second time on Friday. He hoped that the Noble Lord
who spoke last, as he admitted in his speech that some
Reform was necessary, and as the Hon. Member for Thet-
ford had admitted that Reform was necessary, would not
oppose the second reading; and under the probability of
the second reading not being opposed, he thought
his Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
do right to press the second reading on Friday. He did
not anticipate that the Right Hon. Baronet would make
any serious opposition to the second reading, though he
had opened his speech in that sense. He was happy that
his Noble Friend (Lord Clive) had received the Bill i❑ a
spirit of conciliation.—(No, no.) He was happy that
there was nothing in the Bill which should prevent the
supporters of the last Bill from giving this their conscien-
tious support. He had never given in to the absurd cry
of " the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill ;"
and yet he was glad to find there was nothing in the pre-
sent Bill to place those who had supported the last Bill
under any inconvenience.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS wished it to be understood he
was no party to an agreement to recognise the Bill with a
mitigated hostility. He was satisfied with the blessings he
enjoyed, and he should oppose change.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL, though not slow in
expressing gratitude, saw nothing in the new Bill which
should excite great satisfaction in his mind. The great
point was, there was to be no disfranchisement of freemen,
or, in other words, such corporations as were to be spared
by the disfranchising clause were also to be allowed to re-
tain their rights of voting. The Bill conceded that the
freemen of those boroughs which were not placed in sche-
dule A should reserve those rights perpetually which they
had held ever since Parliament was established. Ile had
before said he knew two places—namely, Oxford and
Bristol—where this disfranchisement was regarded as most
odious, and be had stated that this part of the Bill was
not understood. He bad now had an opportunity of re-
freshing his memory, and was glad to find that what had
been called a factious opposition to the Bill had produced
some amendment. The Noble Lord had conceded to
the force of arguments urged on that side of the House,
and not to the " whisper of a faction." Whatever might
be the opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet,
though be did not understand him to say that the
Right Honourable Baronet would not oppose the Bill, he
should oppose the second reading. lie saw no great
alterations in the Bill, and it was open to all the substantial
objections he had ever urged against it. The 101. clause,
which had been altered two or three times, was still to
remain ; arid whether it was to remain in its more objec-
tionable or any other shape, there was no shape it could
be put into that should not meet from him with a decided
opposition. The Hon. Member for Dorsetsbire had made
a curious non sequitur interference from the speech of the
Noble Lord (Clive), and stated that there would be no op-
position to the second reading, which was not warranted
by anything which had fallen from the Noble Lord. He
thought Friday too soon for the second reading ; but let
that come on when it might, as all his objections remained,
he should oppose it.
Mr. SHAW only rose to answer the observation of the
Hon and Learned Member for Louth. He could not be-
lieve that the Hon. and Learned Member was serious in his
observation as to the forty-shilling freeholders in towns,
and asking if they were to remain as a counterbalance to
the freemen. Neither could he think that the Hon. and
Learned Member really meant to assert that the Bill would
diminish the influence of the Roman Catholics. With re-
spect to Dublin, the number of voters at present was about
4,000, and according to the present measure, they would
be increased to about 50,000, the greater part of whom
were Roman Catholics. The objection, therefore, of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was destitute of all ground.
Mr. STUART IrDRTLEY thought the conclusion

which the lion. Member for nowt:shire had thatvn from
the speech of his Noble Friend (Lord Clive) was totally
unwarranted. His Noble Friend had guarded himself by
saying he gave no pledge, and in only expra ssirig the s ttis-
'action lie felt at the conciliatory tone and manner of the
Noble Lord. He was not one of those who would taunt
the Government with the alterations it had made in the
Bill, and who was ashamed to express his satisfaction at
alterations which he admitted were improvements. his
own conduct should be guided by a reference to circutn-
stances ; and he had heard with great satisfaction the
language used on a former evening by the Noble Lord, the
Member for Liverpool, who had expressed the sentiments
which existed in the hearts of all the Members. Every
man felt that the question of Reform ought to be settled.
He admitted, too, that the question must not be settled
by abstract principles, but by a reference to the actual
state of the country. After the excitement created by the
King's Government, it was advisable to promote Reform
by mutual concessions, and he hoped that some practical
measure would at length ensure peace to the country.
Mr. PORTMAN explained. He had not attributed to
his Noble Friend a determination not to oppose the Bill ;
lie had only inferred from his Noble Friend's speech that
he would not oppose the second reading.
Lord CLIVE explained. His lion. Friend bad put a
construction on his words which they did not bear. Ile
had only wished to express his gratification at the tone and
temper in which the Bill had been introduced, and he had
not pledged himself to any course.
Sir ROBERT PEEL explained. He did not expect
that there would be any opposition between his Noble
Friend (Lord Clive) and himself. If his Noble Friend
differed from him, God forbid that his Noble Friend should
not express that difference. For himself, he hail taken an
independent view, and he did not wish to qualify his opi-
nions in order to catch the votes of any Member. Nothing,
certainly, would be more painful to him than such a dif-
ference; but if the Noble Lord thought there were great
improvements in the Bill, he had formed a contrary opi-
nion. He saw no concession of the principle; he should
not expect any when the Noble Lord said that the Bill was
not to be less efficient than the former Bill ; and with that
declaration he did not see how concessions were to be re-
conciled. Whatever other Hon. Members might do, he
should oppose the second reading.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE was rather surprised, when
such a great alteration was to be made in the Constitution,
that something more was not done for the satisfaction of
Ireland ; neither was he surprised that the alterations
which had been msde should not give satisfaction to Irish
Members. He confessed he felt bound to accede to the
opinion expressed by the Member for Louth (Mr. Sheil),
that the course now pursued towards Ireland will strengthen
the power of the agitators and the discontented, and afford
a handle for still stronger language of complaint. The
Right Hon. Baronet (Peel) had observed, in the course of
his speech, that the Members of the other branch of the
Legislature deserved the thanks of that House and the
gratitude of the country, for having so honestly and con-
scientiously discharged their duty, and enabled the Mem-
bers of the Government and of the Lower House to
re-consider the question of Reform. He was one of
those, however, who did not feel this gratitude. On the
contrary, he saw many evils arising from the rejection of
the former Bill, although he admitted that some advantages
bad been obtained by the re-consideration of the provisions
of the Bill.—(Hear.) He, however, could not see why the
other House of Parliament did not send the Bill down

with these amendments and improvements—(Hear,
hear)—and by that means have enabled the country to
escape many evils which have resulted from the loss of
time and the continued agitation of the question..—(Hear,
hear.) He, as well as others, would, he believed, have
been ready to give the suggestions and amendments of the
other House their best consideration, and to have adopted
any measures which were likely to procure that degree of
unanimity and conciliation which the interests of the
country demanded—(Hear, hear)—and he considered it,
therefore, unfair to claim for the Members of the other
House a gratitude to which they were not entitled. He

for one would never cease to regret the decision of the
Peers on that occasion. It would be long before the
Members of that House recovered the respect they formerly
posiessed.—(Hear, hear.) It would be long, very long,
before the heads of the Church, recovered the same situa-
tion and power which they possessed before that unfortu-
nate rejection of the Bill.--(Hear, hear.) Feeling this,
and looking to the consequences which had followed the
course pursued by the House of Peers, he confessed lie
could not remain silent, when it was said they were en-
titled to claim the gratitude of the country.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME was happy to express his approbation of
the principle of the measure proposed by the Government;
but he must join with the Member for Louth, and the
other Members for Ireland, in regretting that some mea-
sures had not been adopted to put an end to the complaint,
of the people of Ireland. He feared much, indeed, that
the passing by the claims of Ireland to an enlarged repre-
sentation would give inveterate offence to the people; and
he must say, that, if he was an Irishman, he would feel
that he had a right to complain loudly of the injustice
with which his country had been treated. The Noble
Lord, although he explained very clearly, on a former
occasion, his desire to preserve the relative propor-
tion between the Members of England and Ireland,
seemed to have now entirely forgotten it ; and he (Mr.
Hume) feared much that the Noble Lord had added
one more that night to the many other grounds of
complaint which the people of Ireland had against the
Government of this country. He trusted that they
would, at all events, reconsider that part of their plan.
As to the measure itself, he must say that he thought
they deserved the thanks of the country for their exertions,
and that they had rendered the Bill as perfect as circum-
stances would permit. He doubted, however, the pro-
priety of giving two Members to so many boroughs, and
thought that is would have been better if they had pro-
ceeded on a different principle, and given one Member to
twenty-six new boroughs possessing a population of from
five to ten thousand persons. The Noble Lord, the Mem-
ber for Liverpool (Lord Sandonj, had the other night
said a good deal of the necessity of conciliation, and of the
opinions of his constituents with respect to the principle
of the Bill. He (Mr. Hume) was quite satisfied, not-
withstanding what the Noble Lord said of the opinions of
the people of Liverpool, that the feelings of the country
were decidedly in favour of that principle ; and that if
Ministers offered anything short of it, the people would
not accept it. He was happy, however to see that the
principle hail been fully adhered to; and he trusted that
the Government would not, in the discussion of the de-
tails, abandon one iota of the principle they professed to
adhere to.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord SANDON, having been thus pointedly referred
to, begged to say that he believed the explanation of the
Noble Paymaster fully proved the propriety of the opinions
he had expressed. He (Lord Sandon) said on that coma-
sian, that if the principle of getting rid of the nomination
boroughs was fully adhered to, he thought that the Mi-
nistry would be unwise if they stickle(' too much for unim-
portant details. One great objection made to the former
Bill—that population was taken as the standard—had, he
was entitled to say, been removed ; for the statement of the
Noble Paymaster proved that it was not now the point' t-
lion, but th' number of the houses and the payment of the
assessed taxes that were to influence the bestowing of the
franchise. Thanking the Noble Lord and the Government
for preserving the existing rights of freemen to their de-
scendants, lie would conclude by expressing his hope that
they would endeavour to raise a fabric of mutual concilia-
tion instead of mutual recrimination, and that they would
succeed in effecting a satisfactory settlement of this im-
portant question, without having recourse to the dangerous
experiment of raising the strong arm of power against the
privileges of the other branch of the Legislature.—(Hear.)
Mr. ENVART was happy to see some satisfactory
prospect of the settlement of the question of Reform. The
former measure, it was admitted by all, had many details
which were fraught with danger, and he gave his thanks to
the Government for the care they had now bestowed on the
Bill, which he thought entitled them to the gratitude of the
country.
Mr. M. O'FERRAL was sorry to say, that the mea-
sares of the Government, as far as they related to Ireland,
would prove anything but satisfactory. He was confident
that the objects of those who were interested in the pro-
gress of Political Unions would be strengthened by the
declaration of that evening; and although it would be to
hies a matter of great regret to forfeit his position in that
House or in the country ; yet he would say, that if Ire-
land could not obtain redress in the English Parliament,
she iEntr.t seek it elsewhere, and by other means. He
knew the consequence of political combinations. He had
seen their effects in other countries, and he could well
imagine what they would prove in his own; but his
countrymen possessed strong feelings, and he was sure that
the course pursued by the Noble Lord would add force to
the opinion of those who were at present influenced in
favour of agitation.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that with regard to the
question of the number of Members to be given to Ire-
land, and the balance of representation, he must be ex-
cused for not entering into so large a field of discussion on
the introduction of the English Reform Bill. This much,
however, he would say, that before the question of Reform
was introduced at all, the number of Members for Eng-
land was 513, and for Ireland 100. By the plan now
proposed, the number of Member. for England was to be
reduced to 500, while the Members for Ireland ,vere to be