The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-10 00:00:00

principles by by which the whole of it was pervaded.—
(Hear, hear.) By pursuing a similar system in every
branch and departmentiof the Administration of Ireland,
the British GoverniistO would be enabled permanently to
secure to itself the'effeetiOni.ot its Irish stibjects.—(Hear,
hear.) If, Parliament aid Were to be given to the educa-
tion of the poor in Ireland, it was necessary, fair, and just
that that aid should be national, and that the doors of the
schools should not be closed against the great mass of the
poor of Ireland. It had been contended that the pro-
posed plan would fail. Until he saw that it did fail, he
should exceedingly doubt the accuracy of the predic-
tion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just
spoken had consumed much time, very unnecessarily, in
discussing the abstract principles by which the Kildare-
street Society were actuated. Those principles were, no
doubt, very good. But the question was whether the
plan which that Society had pursued had succeeded ? Had
it given satisfaction to the people of Ireland ? How could the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman represent their plan of educa-
tion as prosperous, as haying given satisfaction, in Ireland ?
He was astonished to hear such an assertion ; well know-
ing that, from all parts of Ireland, complaints were pro-
ceeding that it had failed, that it had given general dissatis-
faction. He had himself presented more than one peti-
tion to the House to that effect. What was the fact ? In
1826, it had been stated before a Committee of that House,
that out of 560,000 children at that time receiving edu-
cation in Ireland, only about 55,000 were in connection
with the Kildare-street Society. lie (Mr. Brownlow)
might regret that a Bible education--that hest of
all educations—(Hear, hear, hear)--was inconsistent
with the tenets of the Catholic Church ; for he understood
that it was inconsistent with those tenets to read the
Bible without note or comment, and that the reading
must always be accompanied by that of some work illus-
trative of the gospel morality. He might regret that the
plan pursued by the Kildare-street Society was not ac-
ceptable to the great bulk of the Irish nation. But it
bee:tine the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in his zeal to
disseiganate Christian learning, and, better still, Christian
feeling and Christian charity, to take care lest, in the
prosecution of that object, he should excite sentiments
directly the reverse of those which he (Mr. Brownlow)
was sure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would wish to
excite. He repeated, that he entirely approved of the
plan proposed by the Right Hon. the Chief Secretary.
It gave him, as he believed it had given the House in
general, the greatest satisfaction.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman bad done
well in proposing the establishment of a body of Com-
missioners for the purpose of regulating education in Ire-
land. If he might be allowed to throw out a sugges-
tion, it would be, that those Commissioners should be the
paid and responsible servants of the public. He also
thought that the Commissioners should have the super-
intendemee not only of the funds for education in Ireland
voted by Parliamont, but of all funds appropriated by in-
dividuals to the same purpose.
Mr. WYSE slid that many parts of the statement made
by the Right Hon. Chief Secretary for Ireland coincided
with his own opinions ; that although he might not ap-
prove of some of the details of the Right Honourable
Gentleman's plan, he cordially supported it in its ge-
neral character. The grand point was to give to Ireland
a national education; an education not of the few, but
of the many. The whole history of that country proved
the necessity of such a measure. Ile was glad that a
Board of Commissioners was to be nominated, but he
wished to have the members from either Commission.
He wished to have the Protestant Archbishops and the
Catholic Archbishops, the Provost of Trinity College, and
the President of Maynooth, the Moderator of the Synod
of Ulster, and even members returned from the several
provinces.

Colonel CONOLLY defended the Kildare-street Society,
and hoped that Ministers would not abolish a system which
had taken root in Ireland, aud=was every day gaining
strength.
_ _

Dlr. SHELL said that the passage from the Holy
Writings quoted by the Hon. Member for Drogheda did
certainly furnish a noble political aphorism. " Above all
things (says the wise man) give me your heart." It was
indeed the heart of Ireland that Statesmen wanted ; and
if they followed the course which they were now pursuing
they would be sure not to demand the affections of the
people in vain.—(Hear, bear, hear.) A most salutary
comae had been adopted by the Government. The
Kildare-street Society was to be at an end. The money
was to be placed in the bands of Lord Anglesea—a
lofty-minded trustee—a man who would administer it with
a just regard to what was due to the feelings of the Irish
people, and stood upon such a moral elevation that no
prejudices could ever reach him.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. S.)
hoped that the Government would sweep away every
vestige of the Kildare-street Society. As to the Model
School, it might be preserved, but placed under the con-
troul of the new Board. The engine might be taken out
of the old ship that was to be condemned, and placed in
the new and sound-timbered vessel.—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Shed then went on to show the fallacy of the observations
of the Member for Dublin University. The reports of the
Committees and Commissioners of Education were all
against him. They all concurred in their denunciation of
Kildare-street. He (Mr. Sheil) thought, that when truth
had cost so much—when forty thousand pounds bad been
laid out in search for it, that expenditure should not have
been made in vain. As to the partisans on both sides, let
their evidence be repudiated. He claimed no credit as a
witness. The advocates of Kildare-street and its antago-
nists had been so steeped to the lips in passion, and imbued
so deeply by the immersion, that both should he listened
to, if not with incredulity, at least with a caution amount-
ing nearly to distrust to the perfumers of the Association
---(A laugh)—and to those who had played equally im-
portant parts in the moveable stages supplied by Conven-
ticks and Brunswick Clubs—(Cheers)—let no heed be
given. But what said the documents? What said the
reports? Mr. Sheil proceeded to contend that the Com-
missioners of Education, by their reports in 1812 and
1825, had condemned the Kildare-street Society, and
that the Committees of the House in 1827 and 1830
had adopted the reports of the Commissioners, and had
also declared the Kildare-street Society to be ill-adapted
to the purposes of education. These reports state that
the system, to be patronised by Parliament, should be
free from suspicion. Is the Kildare-street Society free
from suspicion ? Is it not, on the contrary, branded by
the entire Catholic body with the charge of proselytism,
and denounced for the instrumentality to which it has lent
itself, for the accomplishment of a most sinister purpose ?
The report of the Commissioners in 1825 finds one con-
clusive fact against the Kildare-street Society--namely,
that 370 of its schools are in connection with the Baptist
and London Hibernian Society " whose course of instruc-
tion (the Commissioners state) is contrary to the declared
rule and discipline of the Roman Catholic Church." The
Commissioners bad embodied in their report the evidence
of Captain Pringle and of the lion. Member for Dundal.
The first, the Inspector-General of Schools, admitted that
be was solicitous for the conversion of Roman Catholics,
and looked to the reading of the Bible as the means of ef-
fecting his holy purpose. The second (the Member for
Dundalk) stated, that the London Hibernian Society hail
grafted its system in Kildare-street, and that the reading of
the scriptures without note or comment was incompatible
with the principles and practice of the Roman Catholic
religion. Mr. Sheil read extracts from the evidence of
Mr. Bicheno, an English gentleman and a Protestant, who
stated that be had visited Kildare-street-place, and said
that " nobody in Kildare-street would avow their object
was the conversion of Catholics ; but it was evidently a
thing which the gentlemen of the: Committee desired to
see accomplished, without their taking any direct steps to
effect it."—(Hear, hear.) The whole body of the evi-
dence went to prove that the Roman Catholics of Ireland
looked with indignation at the proceedings and system
of the Society But putting the reports of the Com-
missioners and the testimony of witnesses aside, and
looking into the general principles on which education
ought to be conducted, the whole question resolved into
this :—" Do the Kildare-street Society require that the
Scriptures should be read, and is that practice at variance
with the discipline of the Catholic Church?" The first
interrogatory must be answered in the affirmative. What
should be the answer to the second ? There could be no
doubt the reading of the Scriptures as a school-book, as a
mere manual of elementary instruction, was against the
principles of the Roman Catholic Church. That settled
the question. But the Member for Dublin University said
the Catholic Clergy were of one opinion, and the laity of
teother. By the way, the Hon. Gentleman began by
protestations of perfect liberality, but at the close of his
speech it required no telescope to see the steeples of Geneva
rising in the distance of those prospects which he exhi-
, bited.—(Hear, hear.) But is there not some inconsis-
tency in the course taken by the advocates of Kildare-street
Place'? What wpFe they one moment to he told that
the laity were a mere senseless herd, ritivon by the priest-
craft at its will, and at another that the Ronian Catholics
of Ireland were emancipated from this ignominious and.
debasing dominion? Is the Roman Catholic peasant to
be a degraded slave, or a liberated philosopher, just as it
suits the convenience of disputation ? But he (Mr. Shed)
deprecated these distinctions between the Catholic laity
and clergy, It was as important to conciliate the one, as it
was to concede the other ; or rather both bodies were to be
regarded not only as closely united, but, for the purposes of
wise legislation, as substantially identified. The Catholic
Clergy were composed of a body of .3,000 intelligent and