The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-03 00:00:00

LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 3, 1831.

The Order of the Day having been read,
Mr. lILTME rose at live o'clock, and said, Sir, when I
rose last night at the adjourning of the debate, I
was unwi ling to intrude myself at that late hour for
the purpose of prolonging it, hut I am now called on
shortly to state to the House my opinions on the very
important question that has been submitted to the
consideration of the House. I am anxious to do so,
because in the course of the debate which has already
taken place I and others, entertaining opinions respecting
Reform which we are known to entertain, have been
alluded to decidedly by those who have spoken ; and, as
far as I can understand, objections have been taken by
the Noble Lord (Lord L. Gower) under the idea
that it was to be a plan calculated only to give partial re-
lief—a plan that would half settle the question. Now, Sir,
I am bound to say, radical reformer as I am, that the plan
proposed much exceeds what I expected under the circum-
stances.—( Cheers.) I beg Hon. Members will hear the sen-
tence out before they cheer.—( Repeated cheers.) I say sin-
cerely that with all the disposition I had to put confidence
in hie Majesty's Ministers, I really, candidly declare that
I was not prepared to find them come forward on
this occasion with so manly a measure.—(lmmense
cheers.) Sir, I am bound to say that no question since
I have been in Parliament has been of more importance
than that which was submitted last night, nor one in which
every interest of the country is so deeply involved; therefore
I consider the question submitted by the Noble Lord as
redeeming efficiently the pledge of his Majesty's Govern-
ment to bring forward ' a measure of Reform. I have
great pleasure in saying this too, because 1 have already in
my place in this House regretted that the other pledges
were not fulfilled; but on that particular occasion
I stated that those pledges, compared with the treasure of
Reform, were literally nothing--and that with Reform
to which the whole country were now looking, and of
which I have thought there never could be a doubt, the
others would follow and he effected. I am anxious to state,
that I concur entirely in the plan submitted by the
Noble Lord ; not that it is a plan which, if I had
the power of selecting and arranging, I perhaps
would have submitted myself, because in a question
of so much importance, though the principle must very
much be the same, the opinions of different individuals
must vary in the details. But I must submit that
in whatever way you view the question, it is one of
immense dificulty—difficult, because in the established
institutions of this country, any change from the worse
to the better must always be attended with great diffi-
culty as far as individual interests and contending parties are
concerned. It is with that view his Majesty's Ministers
have done wisely. Sir, I candidly confess, when the
Noble Lord stated yesterday that it was not the intention
of his Majesty's Ministers to introduce any clause respecting
altering the duration of Parliament or vote by ballot, it
struck me the measure was defective in that respect.
But when I Caine to consider the important change,
I say, when I came to consider the immense, the impor-
tant, and the efficient change that is proposed—(Hear,
hear, and loud cheering)—when I find how accept-
able the measure will be to the public—(Loud cheers)
I think that his Majesty's Ministers have done wisely not
to encumber their present measure with those other two
questions, which are separate and distinct, and which may be
brought forward at any period when they may think proper
hereafter.—(Loud cheers.) 1, therefore, fully concur, Sir,
in the plan, and in the mode in which it has been brought
forward, thinking that the subject of the duration of Par-
iament and vote by ballot will come on as entire subjects.
The Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Inglis) in a considerable
portion of his speech, argued that there would be no ne-
cessity for reducing the duration of Parliament under
the existing average of Parliamentary duration ; be
that as it may, different opinions are certainly entertained
on the subject, but I think, on the whole, that
the Government have done very right in postponing
to a future period the discussion upon that subject, and also
the consideration of the vote by ballot. I have no he-
sitation in saying my opinions on those subjects are
by no means altered, but what do I want? I want
instead of carrying such a measure of this essen-
tial importance, finding a large portion of this House
—(Hear, hear)—certainly a much larger portion
within than without, unable to make up their minds as
to the propriety and efficiency of the important ques-
tion—l would rather carry their opinions by conviction,
and by the necessity—the demonstrable necessity of
protecting votes in the exercise of their franchise,
than by force, if I may say so. I therefore
think the question of vote by ballot has been most
properly left out of consideration on the present occa-
sion, and that it will come forward much better after we
have had a trial of the present proposed Reform.—(Cheers.)
On that account it is that I am anxious to give every
support, feeble as that support may be, which it is
in my power to give both in and out of this
House towards carrying this great question forward.
I say that cherishing all those opinions which
many Members in this House know I have entertained—
I say that the plan, though perhaps net to the extent that
many might have expected it would he, it is
both wise and proper in his Majesty's Government
to have brought forward as they have done. There
are a few of the details that may be objec-
ted to, but there is so much good, so much
advent Ige—(Hear, hear, and cheers)—so much advantage
I say to the Crown and to the Aristocracy to be de-
rived by this I3ill--(hear, hear, hear)--that I shall not
be one to stand, in consequence of any one of the details,
forward to throw the least objection in the way of
any part of the measure passing.—(Loud cheers.)—
Undoubtedly, in the course of the proceedings through
which the measure has to pass, if suggestions should be
offered to his Majesty's Government of more moderate
alterations in the details, which they may be satisfied
may render the plan more efficient, I think his Majesty's
Ministers trill act properly in adopting those suggestions with
the view of perfecting their own plan of Reform. With these
statements, candidiy I can assure the Right Hon. Gentle-
man that I have the satisfaction of stating that all
those with whom I have had an opportunity of
conversing this day are satisfied with the measure—(hear,
hear, hear)—and I find that it has given the most
general satisfaction.—(Hear, hear, and immense cheers.)
Even many whom I know to be the strongest Reformers
in England—( Hear)—many of those I know are perfectly
satisfied--(Repeated cheers)—and say that they have the
utmost reason to he delighted.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It
is the perfection and wisdom of every Government
to meet the rising wishes of the country, and to effect
by degrees those changes which circumstances re-
quire, and not to risk those useful changes by sub-
stituting any thing such as has been brought for ward
at former times, and in other places, having all the pre-
tensions of entire and infallible wisdom.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) It is on that principle I give the plan my entire
think
the and I have no doubt, though many may
the qualifications for voting are too high, yet there is too
much good sense in the British community not to feel
that vast good is to be obtained by this measure,
and that though some may not immediately
participate in its benefits, yet that great advantage will
result to the whole community.--(Loud cheers.) By
such a measure, the lowest as well as the highest
must be benefited. Indeed, I should be glad
to know what plan could be suggested that
as ould be better calculated to meet the public benefit
than the one brought forward by the Noble Lord. His
Majesty's Government have adopted population and
property ; taxation might certainly have been made
a third, and civil service a fourth claim. Those are
the only claims any individual can have, as it appears
to me, for possessing the elective franchise. All these
four it is difficult to combine; two of them have been
selected, and the two that in my opinion are the best
calculated for the purpose. The two speeches that
were delivered last night on this side of the
House, candidly appeared to me to be speeches
at ev
Reforme
nwoht whatever--
ever....—
of
(Loud ebeers)—and I put it to the House and
athgaisinssptecaifincy pklainn,d Reform
any"
I put it to the country to say whether we are not now in a
situation loudly to call for Reform. The Hon. Member
then alluded to the vast numbers of petitions that
had been crowded upon the table of the House
as a proof of the necessity of Reform.
gs
adverted likewise to the improvement which had been
stated to have taken place in Scotland of late, and he
was certain that by the passing of the present measure,
that improvement would yet go to a greater extent. With
respect, Sir, he added, to the reduction in the numbers now
taaurned to this House, I must say that it not only
has my most perfect concurrence, but that I trust, when
any future Reform shall take place....(klear, hear,
and

a laugh)—the proposed numbers will be reduced,
if it should be found, upon inquiry, that such
a reduction would, as I think it would, be for the public
advantage. Indeed, if it were proposed to reduce the
number to 500 instead of 600, I should not say that such
a reduction would be a detriment to the public interests ;
and the unfounded arguments which I heard last night
against that part of the proposed measure confirmed me
in the opinion which I have long entertained, that the
number of Members in this House is inconveniently
large.—(" Hear, hear," and " No, no.") I ask any
Hon. Member whether he can say that this House
as at present constituted represents the people of England,
or that it possesses as it ought to do the confidence of the
people.—(Cheers.) Ifany Hon. Member were to assert that
it did, I would refer him to the petitions on the table of this
House as a triumphant refutation of the assertion—(Hear,
hear)—to those petitions, which clearly show the wisdom
of Government in coming forward with a measure
which will prevent the evils which, without Reform,
must inevitably take place.—(Loud cheers.) Allusion
has been made to the change which has taken place in a
neighbouring coup try. Now, let me ask those Hop. Members
who deplore those changes and the evils which have arisen
from them, whether they do not think that those evils
—if evils they be—l do not say they are--would not,
if not avoided, have at least been greatly diminished,
if any timely regard for public opinion had
been manifested in that country. I apprehend nothing
from physical three ; but I say there is a moral force
which influences and pervades the whole community,
and the consequences of which would not be retarded
but accelerated by a disregard for public opinion. I think
his Majesty's Government have taken the wisest course, and
although I may not perk Ts be satisfied with the extent
to which they have gone—yet I am willing for the
present to give up my opinion upon subjects of a
trifling moment as compared with the principle
of Reform itself, and fur one shall do nothing to
throw impediments in the way of Ministers.—(Cheers.)
Sir, let any man who opposes this change, consider well
what may be the consequences, if this House should
by its vote say, that it will not give the people
of England that which is their birthright, and which
has been too long withheld, but which this measure proposes
to grant. Sir, I shall not trouble the House further than
by repeating, before I sit down, my most cordial assent
to, and my anxiety to support, the measure proposed by
the Noble Lord.—(Repeated cheers.)
Mr. J. V. SHELLEY did not rise to reply to the
speech just made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, hut
could not avoid remarking, that that speech afforded
pretty good proof of what they might expect, if they
should allow such a measure as this to pass. That Hon.
Member, in supporting the proposed Reform, spoke of the
further Reform which might be effected after this present
one had been carried into operation, and from that ob-
servation they might justly conclude that the measure in-
troduced by the Noble Lord opposite, even if it should he
carried, would not prove a final one, and that it would
not set the question for ever at rest.—(Hear, hear.)--The
eyes of Great Britain, and not of Great Britain only, but
of Europe, were upon them, while occupied in the dis-
cussion of this most important measure—a measure which
involved the present, and perhaps the future, welfare of
this country. That being the case, and viewing this mea-
sure, as he did, in that light, lie rose to express his senti-
ments with regard to it, perfectly free and independent of
any party or political influence. His complete and con-
scientious conviction was, that the carrying of such a
measure as this would be productive of the utter ruin of
the whole system of social order and good government in
this country. That was the result, he was convinced,
which would follow from the measure proposed by the
Noble Lord, and he (Mr. Shelley) therefore felt himself
called upon to come forward and declare his opinions with
respect to it. He Had often heard it asserted by Hon.
Members in that House, as an argument for the disfran-
chisement of the close—or, as the Noble Lord had been
pleased to term them, the rotten boroughs, that they con-
stituted a species of representation, which could not by
any possibility or means whatever give free and indepen-
dent Members to that House. Now he (Mr. Shelley) con-
scientiously believed that the only really, truly, thoroughly,
and completely independent Members in that House were
the Members who were returned there to represent the
close boreughs.—(Much laughter.)—He did not mean to
speak disrespectfully of any lion. Member in that Hoarse,
but it was well known that every Hon. Member
who was not returned from a close borough was obliged
to consult the individual interests and opinions of his
particular constituents. The representative of a close
borough, on the contrary, was quite unfettered by local
interests and local connexions. if they but looked back
into their history, they would see that the most able, the
most eloquent, and' the most enlightened men that had
ever sat in that °House, had been returned by close
boroughs. He should not pursue that argument further,
and would only say that he could not bring himself to
vats for the disfranchisement of a single one of those
boroughs. And here, perhaps, he might be permitted to
remind the House of a speech which had been pronounced
by an able Statesman whose sentiments were often quoted
and appealed to there ; perhaps he would be permitted to
quote to the House an extract from a speech of the late
Mr. Canning. He would call the attention of some Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had been great admirers
of that able Statesman, to the following extract from a
speech delivered by Mr. Canning to his constituents at
Liverpool in 1820. Speaking then of our existing Con-
' stitution, Mr. Canning eloquently said, " My lot is cast
' under the British Monarchy; under that I have lived ;
under that I have seen my country flourish ; under that I
have seen it enjoy as great a share of prosperity, of happi-
ness, and of glory, as I believe any modification of human
society to he capable of bestowing ; and I am not prepared
to sacrifice or to hazard the fruit of centuries of expe-
perience, of centuries of struggles, and more than one cen-
tdry of liberty as perfect as ever blessed any country upon the
earth, for visionary schemes of ideal perfectibility, or for
doubtful experiments even of possible improvement"—
(Hear, hear.) Such were the sentiments of the late Mr.
Canning, and it was therefore a matter of no small surprise
to behold some Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who had
been the disciples of Mr. Canning, who had been educated
in his school, and who looked upon him as one of the
greatest of our statesmen, not only sanctioning, but actu-
ally bringing forward, a measure of this description.—
(Hear, hear.) If such a measure were carried, it was his
opinion that no persons in trade or business, or who had
local interests of their own to attend to, would be enabled,
by any possibility, to obtain a seat in that House. If such
aao:NmLoonfomeouatrtslied:uGd(eaoctosponhhtupi:orelpeateiupros
gornsli;nbvih:tete.
hseaaelr
easiunepnusltprtctr
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so:cesv.aytgy givevei
wvl Roir
x(cstoeen,
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additionaltcnh—hsi
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ca hear,ent
ballot.tit,
Reform,—universal
members
sintTitandnhl
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neighbour-
hood esgrutga suffrage,
laughter.)
stheork,t
passingoaeeettgbrrinh.res::)l,,
hood of St. Giles's, to St. Martin-in-the-fields, and to
Marylebone, the power of sending Members to Parliament.
--(Hear.) Now if the borough which he (Mr. Shelley)
represented (Gatton) should be disfranchised, in common
fairness the Noble Lord should at least give him the chance
of being returned as a Member to that House, by giving
the franchise to the parish in which he resided—the parish
of St. George—which had as good a right to it as those
places to which he proposed to give it.—(Cries of " It is
in Weattninster.") The Hon. Member concluded by again
repeating his determination to oppose the measure of the
Noble Lord, which he characterized as an unwise, revolu-
tionary, and radical measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. B. WALL represented one of the boroughs
from which, by the plan brought forward by the Noble
Lord, it was proposed to take away one of their repre-
sentatives, and, after the small degree of attention which
had been accorded from the opposite side of the House to
the speech of the Hon. Member for Gatton, lie supposed
that, considering that he (Mr. Wall) might be looked
upon but as half a man—(A. laugh)—he should receive
still less attention. He could not but look with distrust
and suspicion upon any measure proposed on the subject of
Parliamentary Reform by his Majesty's Government, be-
cause he felt it necessary to advert, and to call the atten-
tion of the House and the country, to the circumstances
under which that Government brought it forward.--
They were told that the Government was now unanimous
on this subject ; but that unanimity had not occurred
until the eleventh hour. It was plain, from what they
had heard from the Noble Lord opposite last night, that
that unanimity had been gained by concession and com-
promise in the Cabinet.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-,
sition.) One Noble Lord in the Cabinet said that he
would give up the ballot,..another Noble Lord gays 111)

the close boroughs,--a Right Hon. Gentleman gave up
something else, and finally Ministers concurred in pro-
posing the measure which the Noble Lord had last night
brought before the House. Such was their unanimity—
their boasted unanimity ! It reminded him of the re-
mark of Pre(}; in the Critic, who, when all the cha-
racters on the stage think proper to agree, exclaims,
" Our unanimity is wonderful !"—(A laugh.) It should
he recollected that this measure was brought forward
by Ministers under very great advantages. They
derived advantage in the first instance from a thing
which was altogether of a most unconstitutional na-
ture. He should not allude to the circumstance more
fully, as he should he liable to be called to order by
the chair ; but the allusion which he had made to it,
he was sure, would be suffi,ciently understood. They also
derived advantage from that which the Right Hon. Baro-
net opposite bad threatened the Members of that House
with—namely, to send them hack to their constituents.—
(Hear. ) He (Mr. Wall) would not,be afraid to face his
constituents, lie would not be afraid-to meet the electors
of Guildford upon this subject. If the Cabinet were as
unanimous on the question of dissolution as they were on
that of Reform, and if the state of England were more
tranquil, and if Ireland were in a state that they would
all desire to see it in, he for one would dare his Majesty's
Ministers to giltoea dissolution en this question.—(Loud
and repeater; inters from the opposition benches ) If the
Cabinet were unanimous on this question of Reform, at
a II events the petitioners who demanded Reform were not
unanimous on the subject. He should like to see the re-
turn moved by the Hon. Member for Preston laid before
them, before they should come to a decision on this ques-
tion,—be should like to see the number of petitions which
prayed for a Reform of Parliament such as the Govern-
ment were inclined to grant, distinguished from the peti-
tions which prayed for the ballot. He would ask was this
the age of misrule ? Could any man doubt that this was
not a time when the Parliament had become strong and
the Government weak—he did not speak of the present
Government, he spoke of any Government which might
be in office—was not this a time when the omnipotence of
the people had been almost entirely accomplished in that
House, and when any Government that might exist
could only exist by Parliament? He should as soon see
the Noble Earl (Grey) at the head of the Government
as any other individual, if that Noble Earl, as he had
promised, had stood by his order. If he had done so,
he (Mr. 'Wall) would have given his Government his sup-
port. He would ask, whether this was a time when the
Government could come down to that House, sure of
having any question which it might propose carried by a
majority? He would ask whether there was any other state or
nation in which the people had more freedom, or in which
there was less of venality and corruption ? He must be
permitted to say, that there was far less corruption and
venality in that House now than there had ever been at
any former period. It appeared from a speech of Lord
Hawkesbury, in 1753, that at that period the number of
placemen in that House was about 50 ; while the late Go-
vernment was in office, the number of placemen in that
House was reduced to 35, and he believed that the num-
ber was at present still smaller. He thought there was a
great difficulty in "getting up" a grievance of which a
just complaint could be made, and that it required the
microscopic eye of the Hon. Member for Middlesex to
detect an abuse.—(A laugh.)—The Right Hon. Baronet
below him (Sir R• Peel) had some time since declared that
no Government could go on unless it was supported by
public opinion ; and not long since the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Lord Althorp) thanked God that the time was gone
by when this country could he governed by patronage.
Was not that a Reform? This was n time when every man
at all friendly to Reform, should state explicitly the extent
to which lie was willing to go,—and it was most important
that the extent to which some persons in this country wished
to go in the way of Reform should be known. He would
read some short extracts from the Examiner and the West-
minster Review, to show the extent to which a class of
persons in this country were desirous that the Reform should
go. He felt every respect for both those publications, and in
mentioning the opinions which they put forward, he meant
to cast no imputation upon them ; his only object was
to put the House in possession of the sentiments of that
class of reformers whose opinions they represented. The
Hon. Member here read an extract from an article in the
Examiner, in favour of the vote by ballot, in which
that mode of taking the vote was strongly insisted upon,
on many grounds, and amongst others upon this, that it
would break asunder the bonds and fetters which kept the
people of this country under the dominion of an oligarchy.
He also read extracts from an article in the Westminster
Review, upon the anticipated subject of Reform, in which
speaking of the benefits to be anticipated from Reform, it
was stated that it would put an end at once to the domina-
tion of the Aristocracy. The last article concluded by as-
serting that in the end all Aristocracy should be annihi-
lated. He felt it his duty, he said, to call the attention of
the House to these Articles, as indicative of some of the
opinions entertained out of doors on this subject. He now
would come to the class of moderate reformers. They
usually dwelt on generalities, avoided discussion, and they
could hardly say what was the Reform which they wanted.
He spoke of these gentlemen thus freely because he was
one of them himself.—(A laugh.)—ln 1817 a Noble
Friend of his, now in another place, Lord Dudley, made
one of the most extraordinary and effective speeches ever
made in that House in favour of a moderate Reform, and
from that time to the present the arguments which he
urged had never been answered. The Hon. Gentleman pro-
ceeded to object to the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, on
the ground that it went to get rid of the corporations in Eng-
land. An act which was proposed asan act of grace should not
also be an act of harshness and disfranchisement. He also
complained of the operation which he contended that the
proposed act would have in the agricultural counties. He
lived in an agricultural,iii,tthis i
Bnil threei
ib s
o
district,ld oogr eoauhnadhvshave
if
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e p
re _
nbe
passed,s
repre-
sentative. atv e . By
he
might
Hampshire were
to be disfranchised, and the only compensation which they
got consisted in two additional county Members. But it
was still proposed to leave the franchise with Portsmouth,
which
a Whig borough. By this Bill it would be
hitherto always returned two Whig Members,
it being
opened,
and let the people of England mark the result ;
the consequence would be, that Portsmouth in future
would uniformly return trso junior Lords of the Admi-
ralty, whatever might be the Administration at the head of
affairs.—(Hear.) Looking to the tendency which skill
and industry had to go towards the north of England,
where the cheapness of coals, the extension of manufac-
tures, and other circumstances, favoured their emigre-
-
nen, he maintained, that if this Bill should he carried,
in the process of time the representation of the country
would be almost entirely transferred to, the northern
counties, and that the southern counties would be de-
deprived of t heir proper and just share in the represen-
tation. But the Noble Lord proposed to give them two
representatives for 111arylebone. Why, if that should be
done, the result would be, that in two or three years Pad-
dington would become clamorous for a representative, and
Hampstead would be quite factious on the subject. He
did not think, if the proposed alterations took place, that
the House would be at all better calculated to consider
the very difficult questions that were constantly brought
before it. Would, for instance, the question of West
India slavery, upon which Government bad already found
so many difficulties, be lightened of any of those diffi-
culties under the new representative principle ? Again,
would the questions of free trade and the corn laws, to
which Ministers seemed pledged, be popular questions in
the agricultural districts ? It was of the utmost import-
ance that some of those cities of refuge, the boroughs,
should be preserved, or how could questions like that of
the Catholic claims be carried, which were not popular
with the people ? There might arrive times in which it
would not be desirable to rush into a war that might be
popular throughout the country, and these were not ima-
ginary cases, for such had often occurred. He agreed
with the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer in the wish
to see Kings, Lords, and Commons in their Constitutional
relations, but he wished likewise to see the connexion kept
up between the Aristocracy and Democracy. If they
looked to what the House of Lords had been at the begin-
ning of the reign of George 111., they would find that the
Peerage had been nearly doubled in that reign, and the infu-
sion of popular feeling was evident in the deliberations of that
House. During this infusion of popular feeling, the clerical
influence had remained stationary, and it might be conso-
latory to the Hon. Member for Middlesex to know, that the
influence or danger of a Bishop now was only one-seventh
of what it bad been at the beginning of the reign of George
laugh.) The Aristocracy had much increased,
but still only in proportion to other classes of subjects.
It should not be forgotten that Old Sarum was not the

creation of yesterday, and what certain publications, such
as the Westminster Peview and the Examiner, called the
foul anarchical Oligarchy, had existed in the old times, and
he doubted if the recent transactions at Stamford and
Newark, would have gone differently in former dap. The
spirit of Reform was abroad. It pervaded all the institue
tunas of the country, and animated every public measure.
All that was required was, since Reform could effect this
in spite of legislative enactments, to guide and t•ontroul it
so as to make it (as it ought) administer to the dignity of
the Crown, the safety of the institutions, and the good of
the people.—(Cheers.)
Lord NEWARK said, the Hon. Member opposte (Mr.
Baring Wall) had complained that Cornwall, that now
had forty Members, would only have twelve ; but he
would remind the Hon. Member that the people of Corn-
wall had already expressed their feelings upon the subject,
and that with their forty odd Members they did not feel
that they were represented at all. lie had hoped that the
Hon. Member for Middlesex would not have expressed his
views of future Reform, but that he would have rested
more than satisfied with the present plan. To show that
this hope had not been irrational, he would read an ex-
tract from the speech of an Hon. Member who was sup-
posed to have some weight with the people. The speech
was delivered in July last, when it was supposed to be the
last time that the House would meet that session in aCom-
mittee of Supply, and the Hon. Member hail then said, that
he would take that opportunity of tasking a friiV rknarkr
which, if proper attention were paid to them, would be pro-
ductive of the greatest advantage to the country. The great
subject of complaint, the Hon. Member had said, was the
excessively burdensome nature of taxation, and he would
venture to suggest to the country at large, that the means
of reducing it would be soon placed once more in its
power. Upon analyzing the constitution of that House,
he had discovered that it was still in the power of the
people of England, if they were true to themselves, to re-
turn a majority of Members, independent not only of the
borough holders, hut of Ministers themselves. The Hon.
Member then added, that 75 out of the 100 Irish Mem.
hers were really elected by the people, and which made a
total of 368 Members who might be compelled, if elec•
tors, only performed their duty, to support every proposi-
tion for the public good.—(Cheers. )—The Hon Mem-
ber had then observed, that a great man (Mr. Pitt) bad
said that it was, utterly impossible for an honest man to
sit in that House as a Minister, but that he hoped that
the day was gone by, and that it was no longer necessary
for a Minister to be a rogue. If the Hon. Member had
judged too well of the community, he (Lord Newark)
could only say that the community hail no right to com-
plain of the lion. Member's having said that they had
the strength to rectify abuses if they were only virtuous
and true to themselves.—(Cheers.)--After the Hon.
Member for Middlesex had said all this, he thought that
lie would have been completely satisfied with the mea-
sure now proposed ; for if the House had been so much
in the power of the people before, surely the present
Reform would place it in a position to satisfy the
Honourable Member. He (Lord Newark) was for Reform.
The necessity was imperative, or the House would be
isolated from the people. When he heard that the plan of
Reform was to p roreed from his Majesty's Ministers, he
must confess that he had not been prepared forsogeneral and
sweeping a measure.—(Hear, hear.)—He could only say,
that be looked forward to the Bill's receiving in its progress
through the House, many modifications from the expe•
rienee of Hon. Members. It did strike him, that the
Bill was too sweeping, or destructive of what was termed
nomination-boroughs ; but he would fairly and frankly
state, that if he was reduced to the alternative of adopting
this Bill with all its provisions, and with its full destruc-
tion of all these boroughs, or to that of having no Reform,
at all, his warm, though humble, support should be given
to the Bill, even without his desiring one single letter of it
to he altered.—(Hear, hear. )
The Earl of DARLINGTON was perfectly unpreju-
diced upon the subject, and after he had heard all
that had been said on both sides, it would, be his
duty to draw a balance between them. He should feel
himself most unworthy and degraded, if upon a ques-
tion of such a nature he could in any respect allow
himself to be influenced by private interests or party
spirit. He had avowed his conviction that Ministers
were men of honesty, and had pledged hinself not to
thwart their measures, and that they should have his per-
fect support. In the present case, he did see barriers on
all sides, and he hoped that Ministers would be cautious
in arriving at conclusions. For 150 years this country
had enjoyed a great prosperity, and he could not but think
that lie ought to hesitate in giving his consent to chang-
ing its institutions ; and yet he was not so prejudiced as
to say that some changes might not be effected, and some
concession made to the people, with advantage to the
country. He would now read what, in his opinion, these
concessions ought to be. In the first place, he had no
objection to the giving of representatives to the large
towns ; for when boroughs originally received their char-
ters, they were places of much greater size and importance,
and of greater population, than at present. No interest
could arise in the country which ought not to be re-
presented in that House, and the only difficulty was,
how such changes were to be effected without danger
to the Constitution. He could not agree with the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord John Russell,) that this change ought
to be effected by disfranchising so many boroughs, and
this without affording any compensation to the proprie-
tors. (The Noble Lord went into the subject of compen-
sation ; but from the impatience of the House, and the
low tone of his Lordship's voice, it was impossible to hear
him in the gallery.) As long as he had a sinue in his
right arm, be would exert himself against what he con-
sidered so injurious and foul a system as the vote by ballot.
Ile could never bring himself to believe that any Minister
of the Crown could sanction such a measure. They sat
in that House not as the delegates of the people, but as
their representatives ; and he could not agree in the doc-
trine, that taxpayers were the beat judges of taxation.
Lord EBRINGTON felt that he should not discharge
his duty to the numerous body of constituents whom be
represented, if be did not, on their account, ask for a por-
tion of the indulgence of the house which he might not
have felt disposed to demand on his own account.—(Hear.)
He thought it incumbent upon him to return the thanks
of his constituents to his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell)
the proposer of the Bill—(Hear)—to that united Cabinet
which had deputed his Noble Friend to propose the mea-
sure—(Hear)—and to that gracious master who had given
his sanction to the proposition.—(Loud cheering, and
cries of " Order" from the Opposition.)
An Hoer. MEMBER put it to the Speaker to say whether
the terms used by the Noble Lord, in allusion to the will
of the Sovereign, were within the rules of order which
governed the house?—(Cheering.) What made the allu-
sion most perfectly unconstitutional as well as disorderly
was, that it appeared to be made in order to influence the
opinion and decision of the House on a public measure.
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member asked him whether
it was in order for the Noble Lord to introduce the name
of the Sovereign with a view to bias the judgment and de-
cision of the House? He bad no difficulty in answering,
that if the Hon. Member were satisfied and correct in his
data--(" hear," from the Treasury benches)--nothing could
be more disorderly than to introduce the name of the So-
vereign for the purpose of influencing the House in its
judgment and decision upon a public measure.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) But if the name of the Sovereign
were alluded to merely with a view to state to the House
what the House well knew to be the case—that by the
Constitution of the country Ministers being alone responsi-
ble and answerable for public measures, the presumption
was that the Sovereign having the right and prerogative
to change his ;entente, would not continue them in office
if they proposed measures that were not considered bene-
ficial to the country, the allusion -.7es not disorderly.—
("Meat" from the Ministerial benches.) And on the other
hand, it communicated nothing to the House which it did
not know before hand, if Ministers acted constitutionally.
Lord EBRINGTON hoped the Hon. Gentleman was
satisfied by the decision of the Chair.—(Hear.) He felt it
his duty to offer to the Ministers of the Crown the thanks
of his constituents, as well as his own thanks, for the mea-
sure which they had proposed to the House—(Hear)—
thanks which he was sure would be re-echoed from every
part of the country in petitions, if time were allowed to
present them—(Cheers)—thanks for this great and com-
prehensive, and safe, because efficient and full, measure
of Parliamentary Reform.—(Hear, hear, and laughter,
from the Opposition.) The arguments which he had
heard from the other side were, he thought, directed
against the whole principle of Parliamentary Reform—
(Hear, hear)—by all who had spoken, with the excep-
tion of the Noble Lord who last addressed the House. He
begged parden, an Hou. Gentleman (Mr. Wall) Mem-

' her for Cuiltifotel, certainly formed an exception to that
observation ; hut he must Any the line of argittnent`whiAl
the illon. Gentleman took, appeared fully worthy Of the
structure which it undertook to defend; for his speech,
able and eloquent as most nricloubtedly• it was; was lull of
iiittadittiont and anomalicst, ne even the Constitution of
that Hon. tinge itself.—(Hear, and laughter.)—The
k e
Hon. Membet began by 3 description of debates is/ the Ca-
binet,
place,
h and he
which(lo it the
e
El'fy h i2gari,) thought had never
ta'n the Hon. Gentleman
never could have known. The Hen, Gentleman then, in
allusion to the tone end temper of the debates of the
House, asked if the age of misrule had already begun, and
told us how debates ought to be conducted, in tt speech
of etch asperity of tone and manner--(Cries of" No, no,"
from the Opposition)—as was certainly uncalled for by
any thing that had fallen from gentlemen on the Minia-
tetial side of the Hease,—(Hear.) Further, the Hon.
Gentleman, after exhausting every argument against the
principle of Parliamentary Reform, concluded by declaring
himself a moderate reformer—(Hear)—at least so he under-
at sod the tenour of the Hon. Member's speech ; and he
appeared to admit that it would be dangerous to the
country if all Reform were refused. With the exception
of the Hon. Gentleman and the Noble Lord who spoke
last, all the opponents of the 13i11 directed their areuments
not so much against the provisions of the present measure
as against Reform altogether. He could not subscribe to
the opinion that the wealth and respectability, and intel-
ligence of the great body of the middle classes di•qualitied
them from having any voice in the election of Members
of Parliament,—(Hear.) He was proud to say, that it
was mainly to that class of society he owed his seat. in the
House.—(Hear.) Connected as he was with the aristo-
cracy, he was not fool enough to wish to see that body
overthrown, He thought the interests of the two classes
perfectly recnnareble. The Noble Lord who spoke float
the bench behind him, asid whose speech he had listened
to with a great deal of pleasure, stated that he ob-
jected to this plan of Reform, because it went too tar.
Now lie confessed he approved of the measure precisely
on the ground of its going so far as it did.—(Hear,
hear.) He had been for many years himself -what
was called a moderate reformer, and thought that, by

paring off decayed and rotten borouos, such as 01.1
Sarum and Gatlin] (the Hon. Member wuukl excnss him
fur alluding to a borough which he represented and .4e-
fended with a degree of chivalry worthy of a better
cause), the constitution of the House could be placed upon
a fair footing; hut he now felt disposed to go much
further. He might here remark thet the Hon. Member's
argument went to show, not merely that the Members for
Old Sarum and Gatton were as good as other Members,
but that they were much better—(Laughter)—and the
effect of the Hon. Gentleman's reasoning, if pushed its
full length, would be to show that in order to have the
country well governed, and the public business well done,
the House ought to consist entirely of representatives
without constituents, of members for an infinite number
of Old Sarums and Gattons.—(Hear and laughter.)—
Ile was persuaded that his Noble Friend's measure would,
when passed (us he hoped and believed it would pas:
that House), conciliate the approbation of the country,
and establish a sympathy between the public and Metubers
of the House of Commons which had of late years been

upon the decline. He believed his Noble Friend's mea-
sure would do more than any other that could be de-
vised to restore this feeling.—(Hear, bear.)—ln speak-
ing as he now did, he had no intention to give up
opinions which he previously entertained with respect to
some details of considerable importance, that, nevertheless,
formed no part of this measure; but he should consider
himself the worst and most imprudent of Reformers--one
of the greatest enemies of the cause which he had all his life
supported—if he could allow a difference of opinion as to
details to interfere with the boon which be considered in-
volved in the passing of this Bill. He would be happy to
give up the shortening of the duration of Parliaments,
and vote by ballot, fur the purpose of securing the passing
of a measure so pregnant with benefit to the country as
this; and he trusted that no friend of Reform would at-
tempt to press for those measures at present in such a way
as to impede or endanger the success of the Bill.—(Hear,
hear. )—A considerable majority of his constituents were,
he believed, friendly to vote by ballot, but he would con-
sent to go to hie constituents and tell them lie had aban-
doned his opinion on that subject for the present, rather
than hazard the great good which he was mire the timely
passing of this measure would confer upon the country.
He did not wish to make use of any language that could
be construed into a threat,—he was the last person to do
so : at the same time, seeing the disposition of the
country, be should not do his duty as an honest man if he
did not endeavour to prevent what he believed would
be the consequence of the rejection of the Bill. He did
believe its rejection would widen the breach which, he was
sorry to say, existed between a great portion of the people
nut of doors and the House of Commons, to an extent that
he dreaded to contemplate.—(Cheers from the Treasury
side, and cries of " No," from the Opposition.) Sure he
was, that if his Noble Friend's measure were not carried
the confidence of the country would be altogether with-
drawn from Parliament.—(" Hear" and " No, no.")
Gentlemen on the other side might say no, and such might
be their opinion, but as an honest man he thought it his
duty to declare his sentiments on the subject, and Le had
not said a single tittle more than in his heart and con-
science he firmly believed.—(Hear.) And believing as
he did, he put it to the House whether he should have
done his duty in concealing his sentiments. In conclusion
he expressed his cordial concurrence in the measure of his
Noble Friend.—(Cheers.)
Lord STORMONT might have looked into all the dic-
tionaries and lexicons of every language in the world with-
out finding a word to characterize the Noble Lord's mea-
sure, had not the proceedings of one of the Noble Lord's
Noble Colleagues, in an important matter this very session,
afforded (unfortunately for the other side) an appropriate
phrase ; he should call this Bill, " the Budget" of Re-
form.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord had divided
the enemies with whom be had to deal into two classes—
the bigots (to which he [Lord Stormont] supposed
be must consider himself as belonging) and the fana-
tics, the few of which latter body he left to defend them-
selves, with the flag of ballot, the Membrino helmet of
annual Parliaments, and the shield of universal suffrage.
He just happened to be sitting between two doughty cham-
pions of Reform (Messrs. Hunt and O'Connell, we be-
lieve), but was a good deal cheered by observing a little
further on his right the great Achilles of Anti-Reform
(Sir C. Wetherell), of whom he should be proud to own
himself the Patroclus.—(A laugls.)—He must allude to
the system of intimidation resorted to by the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham), who most unconsti-
tutionally declared, that in case Parliament refused to
adopt the measure which Government might bring for-
ward, it would be dissolved. Were these declarations and
sentiments appropriate to be held by the Members of any
Government ?—(Hear)—and was the name of his Ma-
jesty to be introduced over and over again with a view to
influence the House in a most unconstitutional manner?
It had been done to-night by the Noble Lord who pre-
ceded him, who, perhaps, just kept within due bounds of
order, though of that some might entertain doubts.
The name of his Majesty must necessarily carry with it
great weight and influence, but he trusted no undue bias
would be created by a reference to it in that
House. All he should say was, that if any Member was
capable of being influenced by threats and intimidation,
he was unworthy of a seat in that House as
was the Right Hon. Baronet who had used those threats of
a seat on the Treasury bench.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The system of intimidation complained of had been stil-
-1 diously persevered in, and the Noble Lord (J. Russell) last
night brought forward his threat and intimidation with
considerable ingenuity. He told us that we Must comply
with the demands of the people, and although the Noble
Lord subsequently retracted that expression when it was
commented on by the Hon. Baronet, the Member for the
University of Oxford, and substituted for it a milder
phra,e, talking of redressing the just grievances of the
people, he (Lord Stormont) could hardly perceive any
difference between the two forms of expression. When the
Noble Lord used that expression, be immediately called to
mind a passage of one of our great poets, so adapted to the
present case that be could almost believe the mind of the
bard had dived into futurity, and in his prescience per-
ceived that a day might come (alas, a dreadful day for
England !) when a proposition such as had been last night
of
fr oouugrh testrbwl
sad should
alarm u
ti
oi )s. tle ju
Addrdeicssiionu
gs forthe the
senate a sfeotny
the claims of the commonalty, Coriolanus exclaimed--
Let deeds express
What's like to be their words :—We did request it ;
ifre are the greater poll, and in true fear
They gale us our demands :—Thus we debase
The nature of our seats, and make the rabble
Call our cares fears : which will in time break °pc
The locks o' the senate, and bring in the crows
To peck the eagles." •
What could be more applicable than this to the present
motion? Next, at what time was the Bill brought for-
ward ? was it in time of peace and tranquillity at home,
and with a livelihood of peace and tranquillity abroad, that
Government introduced a measure calculated like this to
shake and disturb the frame of society ? When we looked
abroad, and saw the revolutions that took place almost
daily, and witnessed the dreadful influence of those con-
vulsions at home,—when we saw the flame spreading
from the southern countries north, east, and
when the public mind was agitated almost
bring.
cedeat, that was the time chosen by Minister.bey.osar

they ing .forward the present Bill—(Hear, hear) leee
celled upon Members not to be influenced by party
ssonsiclerations, but to legislate solely with a view to
`the good of the country at a moment when the minds
inf all were agitated by the events occurring around us.
But, speaking generally of the Bill, what did it pro-
pose to do ? To disfranchise an immense number of
boroughs. The borough which he represented was sur-
rounded by walls ; the walls indeed had crumbled away
--(Loud laughter)—but within these walls, and there
'wily, the electors were entitled to vote- The extent of
'these walls proved very clearly, that a much greater number
.nf voters existed there formerly than possessed the elec-
tive franchise in that borough at present. 'Now he could
see no reason why the right which had been so long
enjoyed by those inlividuals should be interfered with.
The proposition of the Noble Lord would here the effect
of consigning to civil death a great number of those who
now had seats in that House; and he did not think that
the Noble Lord would easily find 16S Members in that
House, or any where else, who would be willing, however
plausible the arguments which might be essged, to vote
their own damnation.—(Laughters)—When a Govern-
ment,—and certainly a very clever Government,—bretrsht
forward this measure, the House had a right to expect
that the same principle would have been trilled both to
England and Scotland—that a uniform principle would
have been extended both to county Members and
borough Members. But no such thing was done :
and he should be glad to know ou what principle
it was that the Noble Lord allowed to Members to
Tavistock—(Cheers from the Opposition)—and also
two Members to Knaresborough.—(Continued cheers )
while other places of as much importance were to be de-
prived of one of their Members ?—(ifear, hear.)—Mini-
sters said, indeed, " We admit that we have tekseated a
departure from principle, and why should you look any I
farther ;" but, in his opinion, neither the House nor the
country ought to be satisfied with VA an answer. This
was the choice plan of a Gibioet, each member of which
appeared to be pledged to the support of some particular
topic. The whole Cabinet had their own especial hobbies,
but they did not ,Teem to know how to ride them skilfully.
—(Hear.)—There was the budget, which was the lielehy '
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(A laugh.)—That
hobby, he ',relieved, was lent to the Noble Lord by a friend,
and not knowing how to manage him, he had received a
fall.—(A laugh.)—Two days after he had brought in his
budget, he laid it at the feet of the House, and got the
Vice-President of the Board of Trade to pronouce its
funeral oration.—(Laughter. )---Then there were the sugar
duties, which afforded another proof of that sweet har-
mony and unanimity which prevailed amongst Ministers.
When that subject was introduced, they seemed unwilling
to keep their places, for he saw them making excuses,
and hurrying off to dinner as fast as they could. With
respect to the change meditated with reference to Scot-
land, he wished to say a few wards, because he felt a
strong interest in the welfare of that country. The wish
of Ministers seemed to be, to establish a popular repre-
sentation. Now, when the Scotch representation was
adapted to that of England, it never was intended to be a
popular representation.—(llear and laughter. )—lt was
intended to be a reprentation of the land, and the owners
of the land.—(Hear.)—The petitions from Scotland
prayed for the right of returning Members to Parliament
for each county. But what had the Noble Lord done ?
Why, he had jumbled counts into county, and this he
called complying with the prayer of the petitioners. He
could assure the Noble Lord that the people of Scotland
would be much better pleased if left alone with their an-
tient rights and privileges.—( Hear.)—They would be far
more content with their old institutions than with new
ones founded on untried theory.—(llear.)—He thought,
however, that it would be right to allow the proposed
Bill to go forth into the country.—(Hear, hear.)—He
called on the House to let the Bill go forth to the country,
that it might be considered in all its hearings. He wished
i t to be accompanied with the debates on the question ; so
that those who were concerned might he aware of the
arguments used on both sides of the House.—(Hear.)—
He was anxious that an impartial feeling should prevail on
this occasion ; for he was not one of those who would run
blindfold into any measure, neither would he reject any
proposition without true inquiry. Year after year the
Noble Lord had brought forward this question, and, look-
ing at what the Noble Lord now proposed, Reform ap-
peared to him to be revolution—concession, spoliation—
and ir. time, religion would be atheism.—(Hear.)
Sir JOHN WALSH would be happy if the Noble Lord
would receive his tribute of praise for the manner in which
he had brought forward his measure. The manner in
which he had stated his measure was such as to put the
House clearly in possession of all its details, and at once to
submit its principle in its fullest scope to their observation.
The measure, however, appeared to him not so much a
Reform of the existing Parliament, as an entirely new for-
mation of the Government of the country,—(Heat, hear.)
He was aware of the talent possessed by the present Ali-
nietry ; and it would not be impeaching their talents, when
he said that not even they would be able to estimate all the
consequences that would follow upon the carrying of this
meseure--they could not estimate what would be the
change to the whole Government and state of the country
in a very brief period.—( Hear, hear.) The first objec-
tion which struck him as to the measure was, that it con
tained an abortive attempt to set up two principles, both
of which appeared to him to be erroneous. The first was
that of reverting to the early period of our history—to a
period when he could not think that in fact this country
enjoyed any of those blessings which in the course of time
its industry and independence had obtained. When the
Noble Lord referred to the reign of Edward 1.. and in
the year 1831 wished to copy the rules adopted by an
arbitrary Monarch in a remote age, he could not conceive
that those rules could be so modified as to suit the
country as it at present existed. It was well known
that in those periods the Commons were thought so
little of an estate as the interpreters of a will or the in-
terests of the nation, that in t e first instance it was sup-
posed that that Ilouse was separate from the other, because
the Peers disdained to hold communication with a body of
men so inferior in station. The other principle which he
thought erroneous was that of rendering the representation
co-extensive with property ; for property in itself was so
vague a term, that, after all, they must resort to the ques-
tion nf expediency ; and the only question was, whether
the lot. voters that were proposed, were as expedient as
the present qualification. The Noble Lord had referred
to three grievances which tire people found with the present
system of representation. But he (Sir J. Walsh) was
surprised, that as the Noble Lord had paid so much at-
tention to the wants of the middle orders, he had not per-
ceived that all their petitions had stated another grievance,
via. that they had associated retrenchment with Reform.
These two appeared to be, like the Siamese Twine—(A
laugh)—not exactly the same, yet so closely united, that
in the minds of the public it WAR difficult to disunite them.
He could understand, that in the present situation of the
Gevernment they had not resorted so much to that argu-
ment as they might have done, for they probably felt,
as Ministers, that the retrenchment which was sup-
posed to be so practicable, would, if pushed to too great
a length be subversive of the interests of the country ;
and as the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had stated in his place, that after the fullest investigation
they could not reduce taxation, but only patronage, he
(Sir J. Walsh) could conceive that the Government must
have felt great difficulty in this part of the question when
they found the people praying for these two things united.
If the retrenchment demanded was unatlvisable, in his
opinion the Reform was so likewise; for either retrench-
ment should he co-existent with Reform, or, getting Re-
form, that retrenchment would follow which would sacri-
fice the best interests of the country.--(Hear, hear. )--
When the Noble Lord brought forward this motion, he
statedhewas desirous of bringing forward a motion so core.
plete that it should satisfy the wants of the people. Now
he (Sir J. Walsh) could not help thinking, that any Re-
form which did not produce the concomitant of retrench-
ment would not satisfy those expectations. which the
people had—or rather what they had been taught to in-
dulge. For himself, he should have pursued a different
mode of satisfying the people. He should have thought
that he could best have satisfied the people, by satisfying,
in the first place, their ovenselves of the reason and justice
of the case.—(hear. )—He could not help thinking, that
by giving way to the fluctuations of popular opinion,
they were following something which they could never
be able to overtake.—(Loud cries of " hear, hear.")—He
thought that there was in this country a
g, reat fund of
;sod sterling "1"e--a great•fund of good feeling and in-
dulgence
towards thoeeeTeNZhro conscientiously ferforme,
their duties ; and he tie
licouldnot think that the
people would he dissatisfied
ecientiously gave his vote on this l Member who eon-
i7aecancaysion according to the
dictates of his own feelings.—
)—Such was
his opinion of the people, and the leers'theae.d"be of satisfying
the people. Numbers had been talked :ficnnirnuraittteietifrottli:atbwodalys,
to be the question, there was another most nu
who, though unrepresented, had been
charge ; a body who had no voice but the still small voicethir
within Members' own breasts : he meant the descendants
of the people for whom they were bound to have the most:
careful consideration. This argument was, of course, re-
ferable to those Hon. Gentlemen only who suffered them-
selves to he swayed by what they conceived to be the opi-
nions out of doors; while to those who really thought
that Reform was necessary, these observations would not
apply. Let them take the in:ow:lee of a Jury is ho was

sitting on the life of a man, with the supposition that
there was a popular clamour without for his acquittal
or condemnation, In such a case he contended that the
Jury would not be justified in listening to that popular
clamour.—(Heir, hear.)—lle valued human life as much
as any one could do ; but, at the same time, he Could
not put the life of one man in competition with the
fate and destiny of a Whtle t ountry ; and he therefore
said that they'were hound to decide on the individual
merits of this case, without listening to any clamour which
was supposed to exist. As he felt nliged thus far to
make an attack upon the intasure of the Government, he
would take the liberty of defending them on one point.
The Noble Lord (Stormont) had accused the Alieistvy of
holding out an intimidation of the dizsthe!..on of Parlia-
ment ; and he certainly had liet.rd The itight lion. Baronet
make use of that os!et'.'afion ; but he did not think that
it had beer. slated as' a threat; for it appeared .fo
that if the Ministers carried this measiY!..2., they would be
bound to dissolve the Parliamet in a very short time ; so
that, after all, this eat Only a sort of plus and minas; and
eit6er it tea: 'tot intended as an intimidation, or, at all
even".L. it was a mistaken intimidation ; fur Hon. Gentle-
men must feel, that this sword of DamokYs was stispentled
over their heads in both eases,

Mr. MACAULEY had hot eipeeted that the Noble
Lord's motion would ht'e given such general satisfaction
as it appeared to have done. For himself, he could oily
say, that as far as he had been able to consis'ear the propo-
sition of the Noble Lord during the last twenty-four
hours, he had no hesitatioti in saying that it was a wise,
noble, and effective measure, skilfully arranged for the
purpose fen which it was intended, and calculated to unite
and link together all orders in the country. The Hon.
Member who had last spoken had said that it contained
two incongruous principles. On the contrary, it appeared
to him to contain but one principle, and that principle was
this—that it was desirable to give a share in the repre-
sentation to the middle chases of the British people ; and
that it was desirable to do this by a change as little violent
as possible to the present institutions of the ecuntry.—
(Crien of "no, no, and hear, hear.") It had also been said
that the act ought to have been symmetrical in its form of
representation ; but, in his opinion, it was wise not to
make it symmetrical—it Was wise in keeping the counties
and the towns distinct—it was wise, because a measure
had been taken which would give due weight to the
middle classes of the people, without producing any
convulsive change. He did net pretend to say that the
same institutions would suit every country. He be-
lieved that some rations were so happy that the best form
of Government for them wag universal suffrage.—(A
laugh.) Such was his opinion ; fur he conceived that if
all the labouring classes of England were fully employed,
and their wages high, with reason for believing that their
feelings would extend to all classes of the community, and
be lasting in their effect, then the whole body might be en-
trusted with the elective franchise, for it was known that
the American people used that advantage well, and he did
not believe that eit'er in their head or their heart they
were superior to the English people.—(Hear, hear.)—
But, as the case now stood with this country, the body of
the labouring classes was reduced to a state of considerable
distress; and they all knew what effect distress had on the
minds of people even better educated and of sounder judg-
ments than the labouring classes. Distress made men
credulous and irritable, and it was, therefore, on that
ground, principally, that he never could consent to an ex-
tension of suffrage of which property was not to be the
basis.—(Hear, hear.)—He supported this measure because
he was opposed to universal suffrage : he supported it be-
cause he looked with horror on the thought of anything
in the shape of revolution ; and he supported it because
hebelieved it was the best security against all possibility of
revolution. A great deal had been &lid about the em-
ployment of threats and intimidations. He did not think
that any had been used ; and when Lord Castlereagh had
come down to that House and enforced his proposition for
the suspension of the habeas corpus, by alluding to the
possibility of popular tumults arising; when he had en-
forced his arguments in favour of the Six Acts, by the
sate observation ; no one had then thought of assuming
that a reference to the possibility of such an occurrence
was either threat or intimidation.—(Hear.)—So he
referred to the present state of the country as a rea-
son for granting Reform ; he slid not refer to it as a threat.
He felt great alarm for the fate of the country, which would
be endangered, be would not say if this measure were re-
jected, but unless some similar measure were passed. He
did not threaten the House, but was discharging his duty
to his country and to the House, in stating soberly as a
reason, and not as a threat, his firm and sincere conviction,
that sinless some measure were adopted for admitting the
middle classes to an effective share of the representation, the
institutions of this country would be exposed to great
danger. He supported the measure, not merely as a mea-
sure of Reform, but as a measure of conservation. If the
House wished to exclude revolution, this measure was ne-
cessary, and it must be adopted as a means of safety for a
desired end. If it was said that property and intelligence
were the bases of a representative Government, it was
only by means of intelligence, it was only by means of pro-
perty, that such a Government could be preserved.—
(Hear, hear,) If property and intelligence ought to govern
the country ; if it was necessary to keep out the mass that
property and intelligence should be represented, why new
compel them to side with the multitude and join the
enemies of order—(Cheers)? Were the times such that
the cause ofgood Government could spare one of its natural
allies—(Hear, hear.)? If he wished to set before the
House in the strongest light the evils of the present system
of representation, he would refer to the northern part of
this City. If he had that foreigner who had been intro-
duced first into the debate by the Noble Lord who opened
it, and had been subsequently used by almost every
speaker—if he had that foreigner, and wished to make
him fully sensible of the peculiar evils of our system,
he would conduct him to that great city which lies to
the north of Oxford-street and the west of Russell-square.
There be would show him a city that exceeded in
size the capitals of mans: kingdom', and even superior in
intelligence and knowledge to any city on the face of the
globe. He would there show him long lines of intermin-
able streets and spacious squares, filled with well-built
magnificent houses, inhabited by opulent e.rul intelligent
men, some of the first eitieene of the State.—(Hear. )
Ile would show that stranger the magnificent shop', the
splendid apartments; he would like to carry him to the
Palaces that stretch along each side of tine Regent's Park,
and he would tell him that the rental of these palaces and
houses exceeded the rental of all Scotland at the time of
the Union—(Hear, hear)—and then he would tell that
stranger that all this wealth and intelligence were unre-
presented.—(Hear, hear.)---He should not need to refer
him to Leeds or Manchester, or Macclesfield, or to tell him
that Scotland bad only the shadow of a tepreeentation.—
The principle of the property tay, he believed, was that
no income below 1 aoi. per annum should be taxed ; and
he doubted, should he include only the property assessed
to that tax, if he should find one-half of the persons who
paid that tax had any votes for representatives. One-
fiftieth part of those persons returned a greater ntimber of
representatives than slid the other forty-nitre parts, Ours,
then, was not a Government on the principle of property;
it was only a Government founded on some fragments of
property, and no principle whatever presided ever its for-
neation.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Oxford
stated that it never was better; but they were not there
to inquire into what it had been, but to make it what it
ought to be. They were not antiquaries, but legislators.
—(Cheers.) It was their duty to consider whether
it could be made batter than it was at present. The
Constitution might have been good at some fofmer time,
but it slid not now correspond to the existing state of the
country. If it had stood still, the population and intelli-
gence of the country had been continual'y in progress.
The Noble Lord (Stormont) said openly and manfully,
that the borough he represented was the !wale now as it
was when.it was first called on to send representatives to
Parliament in the time of Edward I. Lut though that
borough was the. same, did the Noble Lord hot consider
that the population of the country had since that time
materially changed? Was it the same now as in the days
of Edward I. ? What were then small places had now be-
come large cities, and the population) which did not then
exceed two millions, was new multiplied seven-fold. The
increase of wealth was even greater than the increase of the
population, and both had materially changed. They,
however, were to legislate for their own time, and hot for
the ages that were past—(Hear)—they could not possibly
think it right that the seat of Government should he trans-
ferred to York, and that London should be only the second
city of the tmpire, because York was the capital of the
country in the time of Constantius Chlorus? Was the
representation of the country, adapted for two millions of
people, to be now kept as it was established in the thirteenth
century? It was a complaint, he believed, that this Con-
stitution had been violated, and those who supported that
measure were accused of wishing still further to violate it.
But which of the laws bad not been violated ? They had
all been violated. The Hon. Member for Oxford should
recollect, that by the old Original Constitution it was the
right of the Commonalty to raise the taxes; that right
w as guaranteed to the subjects by Magna Charta—so was
f w. ‘raedotri from arrest. Was that never violated ; or, rather,
h Habeas
not continually violated downs to the time of passing
t e Corpus Act? Great changes had taken place
in every
part of society since the period referred to.
Now
'
PraPertY had been called into existence ;' society had ;a-
awned a different form, and much capital and much wegilth,

which were formerly unknown, were now unrepresented.
Some townshad sunk to villages, others had remained sta-
tionary, but many had risen from villages to he as large
as London in the time of the Flantagenets.—(llear, hear.)
Society had grown, but the policy of the Government had
remained still ; and the form of that must be renewed, to
make it accord With that on which it depends.—(Hear.)
It was time, then that our institutions should be new mo-
delled. But when it was said that we ought not to alter
these institutions, because they were established by our an-
cestors, we ought to consider what they would do in our
circumstances. He Wei not rieeide the wisdom of our an-
castore, but thought that they had modelled our institu-
tutions to suit the circumstances of their own times. He
would not do as our ancestors had do"e, but he would do
as they would do if thy were in our circumstances. His
Ilonoureole Friend (the Member for Oxford) had de-
scribed the measure as revolutionary. Was he not then
aware that society was always in a state of revolution, and
that institutions must be changed to correspond to it That
was confirmed by the political iiietory of every country in
Europe-, The political history of the world could not be
opened without finding some new interest coming into ex-
istence; at first it was weak, and was trampled on—then
it grew strong, and pressed on those who trampled on it.
If protection were then granted, well—if it were not
granted, a struggle began. Such was the struggle between
the Plebeians and Patricians at Rome, and such was the
struggle between the Cities and Nobles of Italy. Such was
the struggle between the North American Colonies and
the mother country. Such was the struggle in Ireland
between the Catholics and Protestants, till the former
were released from their servitude. Such too, was the
struggle now going on in Jamaica between the free men of
colour and the aristocracy of the skin ; and such was the
struggle between the middle classes of England and the
aristocracy—men of localities—the aristocracy merely of
gentlemen not distinguished for talents or genius—and
which, by withholding a due share of the representation
from the middle order, was making itself noxious in the
sight of all Europe, which beheld with wonder the wealth
and intelligence of the people whom this aristocracy ex-
cluded from political power.—(Hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Oxford said that the great unrepresented cities had
their interests as well taken care of as if they w, re repre-
sented, and that his votes were given as much with a view
to the interest of Manchester as Oxford. That was the
old doctrine of virtual representation, and he confessed
that he could not understand the reasoning of those who
stood up for virtual represeneation, and would not give
real representation, because it was noxious. He could not
comprehend how that power which was virtually so bene-
ficial, should be, when directly exorcised, so injurious. If
the influence were good virtually exercised, it must be
good directly exercised. It was a strange position to hold,
that virtual representation were good, and that real repre-
sentation were evil. If there was an evil in change—if
change as such were an evil, was not discontent, as discon-
tent, an evil ?—(Hear, hear, hear ?) This was the strong
part of the case of those who oppose the measure.
It was said that the system worked well; he denied
that the system worked well as it regarded the people
of England, though it might work well for a few
people in that House. Was that a good system which
was approved of by no other 658 men in the kingdom?
Let them take the same nuinber of men by chance from
the shopkeepers and [respectable middle class in any part
of the country, and they would say that the system did
not work well. Let them take any number of the middle
classes by lot, then they would find that tire people had no
confidence in the present representation. He was not de-
fending this feeling, he was only arguing from it as a fact,
and it would be well if it were abstained from ; but, ex-
isting in the people, it was a proof that they believed that
the system worked ill. There were many things which
made the representation unpopular. It was the theory of
the Constitution that property should be represented.
Why not make the practice comply with the theory? He
believed that the people did not forget what was due to
the King, and what was due to the Peers. It was against
that House that the popular voice was raised. The Noble
Lord who had introduced the subject stated that the
House of Commons was unpopular.—(Hear, hear.)—
Was not that tire state of the case.—(No, no, and hear.)
—He believed it was, and there was a good reason for
corruptio optimi pessima. Burke had properly described
the House of Commons as a check, not on, but a check
for the people. There were many other checks on them,
but the House of Commons was the cheek for them. " If
the salt have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?"
If the check for the people was corrupted, how were they
to keep other evils in check ? It was not extraordinary,
then, that the people should have lost their feelings
of respect for the House of Commons. They bad not
lost their respect for the King--they bad not lost
their respect for the Aristocracy, as long as the Aris-
tocracy remained in its proper sphere ; but they had lost
their respect for the Representative system of the
country. It was said that this was a tersporary feeling_
that it was the result of the revolution in Belgium and in
France.—(Hear.) He hail read history very falsely if the
feeling sprang from these causes. The plague of discon-
tent was not the growth of the day.—( Hear.) It pos-
sessed all the symptoms of a deep-seated malady. The
present discontent had been growing through two genera-
tions. The Legislature had tried every means in its power
to put an end to it.—(Hear.) It had called new laws into
operation. What had it not done? Was it to be supposed
that any probable measure of cure had veered the subtlety
of Burke or the sagacity of Windham ? Had not every
species of coercion been tried by Lord Londonderry ?
(Hear.) Had not laws been passed to put down public
meetings and to enthral the Press ?-( I Lear. ) And was not
the evil still in existence, and Was it not increasing from day
to day ? What had they not done to palliate it ?--and what
more palliatives could they try ? What further palliatives
bad they? Under these circumstances, the Government pro-
posed to adapt the system of representation to the present
state of the country, which the Noble Lord (Stormont)
seemed to regard with horror, as if the system tnat was
several centuries old was adapted to the 'political feelings
and rights of the people of this day. The measure was a
practical measure, adapted to the wants of the country. It
Wile founded on the good practical principle of giving to
the middle classes political power. It was calling into
alliance with the ordinary principle of good Government
ell the intelligence of the middle classes.—(Hear.) fle
congratulated the Ministry on their standing or falling by
such a measure:--(Cheers.) If he were in their place, he
would rather fall with such a system of represent/tine,
than stand on any other question.--(Cheers.) The objec-
tions made to the Noble Lord's plan seemed to him not im..
portant. The Hon. Member for Oxford had stated one
objection, which, if it were well founded, would he an
attack on other parts of the Constitution. The Hens
Member for Oxford told the House that a reformed
House of Commons cuuld not exist for ten years with-
out pulling down the Throne, and destroying- the House
of Loins. It Was impossible the flononrahle Member
said, that the property and intelligence of the middle
classes could be adequately represented without the result
being to pull down the majesty of the Throne and the
dignity of the Aristocracy. If that were a true dencrip•
tion—if that could be laid to the charge of the country,
which he did not believe ; if that argument were correct,
it spoke volumes Against the Monarchy and the Aristo-
cracy. Nothing ever said by Thomas Paine could be
more injurious. Monarchy and Aristocracy were not va-
luable in tleemselVes. They were means to an end. It
the Bill should produce a republic by impteting the re-
presentation—(Hear, hear,)—though he was convinced it
would have no such effect—(llear, hear)--if what the
Hon. Member for Oxford says siiere trtei if giving the
great body of the intelligent and middle classes a share rn
the Government would lead to the destruction of the Aris-
tocracy, And the demolition of the Throne, what did that
imply but that these two were opposed to the welfare of
the nation?—(Hear, hear.)—lt would not hear an argu-
ment to assert, that admitting the middle classes to a share
of the representation would subvert the Government Of the
King and the Peers. If that were the only objection to
the measure, there was no ground whatever fur opposing
it. Further, it was said that many great and eminent
men had been returned for boroughs. He admitted that
fact ; but in ettiinating it fairly it teas necessary to
consider general tendencies, and not accidents. Des-
potism was detestable as a system: but it had
some good accidents and be would nof, therefore: like
to submit to a master who might destroy him at any mo-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) It would scarcely be possible by
any other mode of election not to bring some eminent
men into the House. If the boroughs were done away,
able men would still find their way into it. If 100 of
the tallest men of the kingdom were to be elected Mem-
bers of Parliament, some among them would be eminent.
If 100 men of a tawny complexion were to be representa-
tives, men of eminence, too, would be found amongst
them.—(A laugh.) In ancient times a king was chosen
by the neighing of a horse ; and though nobody would re-
commend that mode of choosing a king, it might happen
that the one so chosen might be a good king. In the great
city of Athens it was well known that all public officers
were chosen by lot, which could not be recommended, yet
it had once caused Socrates to be chosen, and had enabled
him to resist an unjust measure. It was, therefore, not
the accidents of any system but its general tendencies that
must be considered. Whatever Might be our sysfem Of
representation, cleyer men would find their way into
that House. They might not be the same men as would.
come in under the borough system, but they would be

men of talents, and no one man was indisponiably ne-
cessary. A great nation needed no one individual. Let
them give the country good institutions, and they would
be sure to find good and great men.—(Cheers.) Some
Hon. Members said the measure was attacking property ;
and the Hon. lember for Newton (Mr. Twiss) compared
it to the proceeding which took place at the dose of the
reign of Charles 11. for disfranchising the cities and bo-
roughs. lie was rather surprised at this, because the
Noble Lord who brought in the Bill had anticipated this
argument, and had reminded the House of a recent case,
which should have prevented the Hon. Member from say-
ing one word. If the franchise were property, as the
Noble Lord (Darlington) said, which was not to be taken
away without a compensation—if, as the lion. Gentleman
said, it was not to be withdrawn but after a judicial in-
vestigation, and after proof of guilt, and after some crime
had been fully established, what must lie said to the dis-
franchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders, which, on
this doctrine, was a flagitious robbery ? They were
all at once deprived of their rights without any
charge, without having been guilty of any crime, with-
out having been heard, and without a thought of com-
pensating them. If the franchise at Bath were a
property, was it not also a property at Waterford ?
and was it to be taken away in the latter case when no
crime could be imputed ? It might be said, indeed, that
it was a crime in the Catholic freeholders of Clare to elec-

the present lion. Member for Waterford for that county,
and but to punish the forty-shilling Catholic freeholders
the Protestant forty-shilling freeholders had been disfran
cbised.—(Hear, hear.)—There was one more circum-
stance to which he would allude. Every one, he believed,
of the Hon. Members who had spoken on the other side
had all said that his Majesty's Ministers had at some
former time opposed Parliamentary Reform. It was not
for him to defend those who were so well able to defend

themselves ; he would only say, that he firmly believed
that the country would not think the worse of them, nor
value their services the less, because they hid shown them-
selves capable of learning by experience, that they had
profited by their observations, and were no longer op-
posed to what they and many others sass' was an inevi-
table change. He wished that other persons would
learn a similar lesson.—(Hear.)—Was it possible that
those who now despised this lesson could forget the humi-
liating lesson they were taught not long ago, by an ab
solute resistance to a measure which was rendered inevi-
table by the progress of society ? Was it possible that
those who arrogantly censured others should not recollect
that they were obliged to surrender what they strove in
vain to defend ? In May, 1827, he was in that House,
though he had not a seat in it at that time, and he then
beard the Right Hon. Baronet—of whom he wished to
speak with all the respect that was not inconsistent with
his sincere desire to serve his country on such an impor-
tant question—he had then heard that Right Hon. Baronet,
who had just before quitted the office, demand of the Go-
vernment of that day what it meant to do with respect to
the Test and Corporation Acts, Parliamentary Reform,
and Catholic Emancipation ; and then the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet stated that he should give to these questions his de-
cided opposition. Such was the case four years ago, and
how stood the case now with these three great questions?
The Test and Corporation Acts had been repealed, and
they were repealed by the Ministers who succeeded Mr.
Canning. The peual laws against the Catholics had been
repealed, and they also were repealed by the Mi-
nisters who succeeded \lr. Canning. There remained
Parliamentary Reform ; and whoever beheld the signs
of the times,—the important signs that were hourly
manifested,—must be convinced, that unless the
question of Parliamentary Reform were speedily set-
tled—unless the people were given some share in the
representation, and had their affection for our institutions
restored, there was great hazard of our being exposed to a
most fearful danger.—(No, no, hear, hear.)—He could
not believe that those versed in political affairs would net
so read these signs, and would not be convinced that the
representation of England must be altered before 1860.
Why, then, did they now wait? Was it merely to show
that they had not profited by experience? Did they wait
till the public resolution became irresistible—did they want
more disturbances—a larger mass of discontent—a more
perfect system of organization—a higher collection of rent
—more skilful agitators—and a more complete develop-
ment of power than that which existed in 1827? Were
those scenes to be acted over again? Or were those who,
as Ministers had brought that on, were now crying out
" No Reform !" to become Reformers, as they had then
cried " No Popery !" to become emancipators.—(Cheers.)
Had they forgotten the history of Ireland, where the Ca-
tholics were indulged in rebellion, because they were
denied justice.—(Hear.)—There were signs abroad, and
none could see them with his eyes, or hear them
with his cars, or understand them with his heart,
and not think it his duty to stand between them
and the great and serious effects which might be antici-
pated. Reform should be given as a means of preserva-
tion.—(llear, hear.)—Now, then, when everything was
alarming around us—when it would be madness to invite
a struggle with that spirit of the age which had just
crushed the proudest Crown in Europe, and when we 3,1 W
the palaces of our King supplying an ignominious asylum
to the expelled heir of forty Kings—when we have seen
the great discontent, but while the heart of England was
yet sound, while the national feelings of many old associa-

tions were yet retained bound to the honour and character
of the country, and which might soon, too soon, pass
away—now was the accepted and sure time—(Cheers;
no, no. )—Now was the accepted time—this was the day
of our salvation, when, if we did not act in a faulty
spirit of consistency, but with a due regard to the signs
of these portentous times—now was the promised mo-
ment, the worthy time, when the great debt due from the
aristocracy to the people should he paid, and which, if
paid, would be long remembered, and would never be
forgotten by the people, whose happiness it would secure.
If they attended to these signs, they would secure the
safety of the country, and rich advantages to all. If
the measure were lost, he prayed to God that those who
should vote against it might never be brought, by the re-
sults of that vote, to regret their conduct—might never
regret not having employed the means in their power to
prevent the di-moltition of social order.—(Cheera continued
for some time.)
Lord MAHON had on a former occasion supported the
motion of the Noble Lord for Reform, but he opposed this
because it was not Reform, but a total change in the Con-
stitution. Notwithstanding the declaration made by the
Noble Lord opposite, that the Government had brought
forward the present proposition to avoid, he believed in
his conscience that it would produce, revolution.—(Hear.)
111 r, HUNT said that lie had risen several times last
night in the hope of catching the Speaker's eye, but lie had
not been lucky enough to succeed. He had two reasons
for wishing to obtrude himself thus early OR the attention
of the House—first, because be had been for the last ten
days labouring under indisposition, and he was afraid he
should not be able to deliver his sentiments late in the
debate; and secondlyf because he did not anticipate to
learn any thing new from Hon. Speakers on either side of
the House about this great question of Reform, to the
consideration of which he had devoted a great portion of
his life. He had hitherto listened to what had fallen from
Hon. Members attentively and acutely—(Laughter)—aye,
most acutely—(Alaugh)—and particularly to the statement
of the Noble Lord opposite, the Paymaster of the Forces,
and he had no hesitation in saying that the measure
brought forward by the Noble Lord had gone far beyond
What he (Mr. Hunt) had anticipated.—(Hear.) Ile had
been alluded to personally several times during the present
debate ; and having taken so prominent a part out of doors
with respect to the question of Reform, he was sure that
etwentmillions.
beyond
cerely and honestly declared his sentiments in that House.
lie should do so the more unequivocally, because he was
convinced that the observations he was about to make would
express e
re
eof
f
s exp eetexpectations;
that
buttlre
voiceGot'e r Government n
he regretted that the Noble Lord, in explaining it to the
House, had so unequivocally expressed his opinion against
eLa thethe ballot and universal suffrage. The Noble Lord wished,
it scented, to steer a middle course between the two con-
tending parties,--that which desired no Reform, and that
which Was anxious for a more extensive, and what the
Noble Lord had chosen to designate a visionary, Reform.
He sincerely hoped that the Noble Lord would not verify
the old adage, that between two stools a man was likely to
come to the ground.—(Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned
Member for Newport (Mr. H. Twiss) bad fearlessly and
manfully declared himself against any Reform whatever,
and had called on the House to adopt his views. The lion.
and Learned Member in the fist place accused the Noble
Lord opposite of going too far, and then in the latter part of
his speech, as if for the purpose of currying favour with such
Reformers as he (Mr. Hunt) was, declared that the Noble
Lord bad not gone far enough to satisfy the wishes of
the people. He should not take the trouble to refute the
lion. and Learned Gentleman's arguments, because the
latter part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech
completely answered the former part. He had listened to
the speech of the Hon. Member for Gatton (Mr. Shelley)
who bad expressed himself opposed to Reform; and having
heard that lion. Member cheered by the side of the House
on which he (Mr. Hunt) stood, he assumed that the sen-
timents of the Hon. Member were the !same as were enter-
tained by his side of the House ; and as the Hon. add
Learned Member for Caine (Mr. Macaulay) had been
cheered by the other side, he assumed, for the sake of argu-

•
ment4that that tiona and Learned Gentleman represented
the feelings of that side of the House.—(Laughter.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had unequivocally de-
clared himself against universal suffrage, and his reason
for supporting the measure of the Noble Lord oppo-
site was because it admitted the middle classes to, and
excluded the lower classes from, the elective franchise.
He (Mr. Hint) was sorry that such an opinion should
hare been expressed, if it were only utteresi for the pur-
pose of conciliation. If the Hon. and Learned Member
had any real and honest intention to conciliate the
people, would he have spoken of them in the manner he
had done ? He would have asked the Hon. and Learned
member, had he not left the House, whether, when he
called the people a rabble, and unfit to be intrusted with
the elective franchise, lie was willing to exempt that
rabble from paying taxes and serving in the militia ? be-
cause if he did, then, and then only, would there he any
sense in his observations. Hie (Mr. H.'s) opinions were
well known to the country. He had fearlessly and man.-
fully advocated the rights of the people, and he should Ile
unworthy of a seat in that House, if on an occasion like
the present, he did not advocate the same sentiments there.
He had always contended for the right of every one to have
a share in the elective franchise, because he had been taught
to believe that the Constitution of England admitted of
this principle—that representation and taxation went hand
in hand, and that no man ought to be called upon to
pay taxes unless he had a share in the representation.
Was he to he told that the people, who had fought the
battles of the country—the lower orders, whom he called
the useful classes of society, were to he called upon to pay
taxes on every article of human subsistence, and after-
wards denied the right of choosing their representatives ?
He plainly told the House, and he spoke the voice of mil-
lions, that such an exclusive doctrine would give no satis-
faction out of doors. He was delighted to hear that the
rotten boroughs were all to be sacrificed. Some Hon.
Members had called the measure proposed by the Noble
Lord not Reform, but revolution, and an alteration of the
Constitution. Now he would admit that statement to he
cerrect the moment it was proved that rotten boroughs
were part of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.)—When
the lion. and Learned Member for Caine (Mr. Maeaulay)
talked of the rabble, the Hon. and Learned Member had
looked very hard at him (Mr. Hunt.)—(Great laughter.)
—He understood the meaning of that laugh, and he was
only sorry that the Hon. and Learned Member hail not
remained in his place, that he (Mr. Hunt) might have
looked in the same way at him.—(Continneil laughter. )
How, he asked, was that House constituted ? How were
many Hon. Members elected. Look to the borough t f
Il-
chester, and the boroughs of Lancashire and Cornwall, and
see what classes of men returned Members to that House.
He would tell the House of a fact which had come to his
knowledge, and which bore on this particular point. In
the borough of Ilchester, where he was seat to gaol for
two years and six months—(Great laughter)—he under-
stood the meaning of that laugh again—but he repeated
that in Ilchester many of the electors were of the most de-
graded and lowest class, who could neither read nor write,
and who always took good care to contract debts to the
amount of 351. previous to an election, because they knew
that those debts would be liquidated for them. Was that,
then, the class of men whom the House was told repre-
sented the property of the country 2—(Hear, hear.) He
was one who thought that that House ought to be what it
professed to be—the Commons House of Parliament, re-
presenting the feelings and interests of all the common
people of England. He did not stand up to approve of
the disfranchisement of any person, because he had always
contended for the right of the whole people of England to
have a share in time representation. That the people of
England were perfectly competent to choose proper repre-
sentatives he was fully convinced. He had been in the
habit. for many years past, of attending large public meet-
ings, composed of persons whom the Hon. and Learned
Member for Caine had chosen to call the rabble ; but he
would undertake to say that they were a much more in-
telligent rabble than the electors of Caine.—(Laughter.)
That Caine was one of the most degraded of rotten
boroughs ; and he wondered by what chance the Ministers
had overlooked that most rotten anti stinking hole of cor-
ruption in their sweeping measure of Reform.—(Loud
laughter, and cries of " Hear.") They had been told by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Caine, that if the pre-
sent measure was not conceded to the middle classes, we
should have revolution and massacre. What sort of mas-
sacre was it that the Hon. and Learned Member had alluded
to ? He (Mr. Hunt) remembered that when the people of
Manchester assembled together in 1819, as legally and as
peaceably as the lion. Members were now assembled in
that House. The people were assembled for the purpose of
petitioning for a Reform in Parliament and a repeal of the
corn laws ; and their petition was couched in much more
respectful and moderate language than many petitions
which had been presented to that House. Then, indeed,
there was a massacre.—(Cries of, " No, no.") He said
yes. The meeting was constitutionally and peaceably as-
sembled, and what was the result ? Why, a drunken and
infuriated yeomanry—(" Order, order,' " Question, ques-
tion,")—with newly-sharpened sabres--(" Question, ques-
tion")—rushed among the people, and chopped them to
pieces.---(" No, no," " Order.") They slaughtered to
death 14—(" No, no")--cut and badly wounded 618.
Here the cries of dissent and question became so loud and
frequent as to interrupt the Hon. Member for some time.
At length, exerting all the strength of bits powerful voice,
he exclaimed, in a tone which was heard above all the
noise which prevailed in the House, " Where is the man
who says no ? I repeat that this infuriated yeomanry mur-
dered 14—(' No, no,' Question," Order')—wounded
and slaughtered 618—(' Question, question')—of as peace-
able and well-disposed subjects of his Majesty as any I see
around me at this present moment." At that meeting he
was advocating the cause of Reform, and he was asto-
nished to hear the Noble Lord, the Paymaster of the
Forces, say, in bringing forward the present measure, that
the Government had not taken up the question before be-
cause the people of England had not called upon them in
a manner to, ustify the interference of Government. The
people of England had for many years past been anxious
for Reform, and in the years 1816, 1817, 1818, and
1819, had loudly expressed their wishes for some measure
to amend the state of the representation. He did not be-
lieve that Ministers, in bringing forward the present mea-
sure, had yielded to any thing like intimidation, or were
frightened by thus violent language of the petitions which
had been presented to the House ; yet those who had
watched the signs of the times must know that, until some
measure of Reform should be granted, there would he dan-
ger.—(Hear.) He did not condemn the Ministers for
not going the full length of his views on the subject; on
the contrary, he would give the measure they bad intro-
duced the support of his humble powers, both in-doors
and out of doors.—(Hear.)—lf, indeed, they had only
gone the length of disfranchising one rotten borough, they
would have had his support on principle. But he was
sorry for the intemperate language which the lion. and
Learned Member for Caine had been betrayed into as it
had a tendency to create a great division out of doors, and
make the people believe that it was a question:of the middle
classes against the lower orders.—(Hear, hear.)—He
contended that the labouring mechanic, who paid from Si,
to 101. a-year in taxes, and earning his 30s. per week,
would give as independent and honest a vote as any per-
son; and he gave notice, that if the labouring classes
were excluded from the representation, he should move
that they should be exempted from serving in the militia,
navy, or army, or paying taxes.—(oh, oh.)—When we
departed from principle, we always got into difficulties.
He appealed to the lawyers, whether the principle of the
Constitution was not, that all men were entitled to a share
in the representation ? When any man was indicted in a
Court ofJustice, and pleaded in mitigation that he was
ignorant of having committed any offence against the laws,
he was told, that be ought to know what the laws were,
be-cause he was a party to those laws by himself or his
representative. He certainly thought that the scene which
was exhibited in that House yesterday, when the Noble
Lord brought forward the Reform measure, had never been
equalled since the time of the revolution, when Cromwell
came into the House, and took away the bauble of the mace.
When he was tried, condemned, and sentenced to suffer two
years and six months' imprisonment in a dungeon.—
(Laughter, and cries of " Question.")—lle thought it
very hard that while some Members, in arguing the ques-
tion of Reform, bad gene back to the time of Edward 11.,
he %vas not allowed to refer to transactions which had taken
place within the last twenty years.—(Question, question.)
—Well, then, he would tell the people of England that
the man they hail sent to that House to advocate their
rights was not allowed to be heard.—(No, no.)—But
he
said yes, yes. 'When, he repeated, he was condemned to
suffer two years and six months' imprisonment in a soli-
tary dungeon—(Laughter)—for advocating that question
which was now advocated by so many Hon. Members in
that House, he little expected to see a measure of Reform
proposed by Government; though he knew that Lord
Memberr
street Caln
we
o had
said Chatham had said, that if Reform did not come from
within, it would come from without with a vengeance.—
e(,Fl,iederatrh(.ll)r---teantnToliireoefil)!tna.
invadingfaenw d Learned
crazythe, rights radicalsf
the throne. He
asked the Hon, and Learned Member where any of these
crazy radicals were to be met with ? He was as e.ia ei d
tho-
rough-going a radical as ever paced the Strand, but he
in the
fo
the
defied the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to prove that he
had ever proposed to attack the privileges of the Crown,
though he had often enough protested .against the profligate

tie tht
tavagence of te tmy o the thione.--(Quearini' Itateset'ul
ext
—lt was the profligacy) often last reign, the extravagant and. t. d
of the family on the throne, and the misconduct of the Hou:allied
House, which had brought the institutions of the counte tette wei
into disrepute.—(Question, question.)--He hoped hr that
trusted that the present measure would pass, and he ie Ptrseee et
lieved that the Hon. and Learned Member who had ms Gati: tot
use of such intemperate language would repent having doe,' Wiiiln) at
wouldit
st
ho ,e th% .ihoei,nes
excluded
c:fifl(„iececdt eft.rlhoaint howntihL l)riieropgfreet
hsacenptuarttiioo militial. of the Pe °Y,i e,
1 iessi 'th
stated the.? ho,
e
papers" w orntill3a
had lately been distributed, had been returned, and excistr foe, VI
tion claimed, because the parties signing had no share in he I Lord
representation. In the northern part of the eeentrY,
C
knew that the young turn had declared that they worth! real' et4htlao y
rot in gaol than serve in the militia, sinless they Were, :„d
lowed a voice in choosing Members of Perliarne°"
i
(" No, no !") lie told the House plainly, that if he wteir kr,l the
aani
in the saute situation as those men, he would aet in.
arse ~lr,
same manner—(Laughter)—and if he could not be
ali far t,
hearing in that House, he knew what course he should
tl
take. He had been in gaol, and he knew that it nel 1
killed men, nor altered their opinions. Ile highly reo clear
robe
spccted the talent of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir B. :od Prers:tf
in whose custody lie once was.—(Laughter.) Ile Right el/41eli sai
V('ry
Baronet; differentanrlf,ti standingt riu
Tuescet trios ttlie4: 4:tafe ('
on a re re- "In e
and
sentative of the people of Preston, he considered Itunete.
quite a, high in the scabof society as the Right Hon. et, 'reel-4'es
ronet.—(Laughter.) Perhaps he might be thought ta,tri, 1104 t led
prove of the measure before the House, because hi' clrel hat
tuents were in no wise touched by it : but if theY,o33l *its t
Was
been affected by it, yet, this being a great constitutt„ it I'llaseet‘f9
fice being
tioSir
uld
ely
tl
'1a:11 question,li°.h'ear, 11n':a;ast:Pleb.tibo)eserei(e:nente':freL5e;:;jaseitt'dglirlitehc;It make ni
,leegard to endfenhrec:uteocomtsne,sBssasot:' ain‘ynt'r;;tetPohhn:eaLharl:::rnill:cti je'crtg:;:i the
4:aficu:sieteloaci(
to
be
p
itileaafotreitihiear,,l,,atlswha,snsiolurereend c4nsitirslecrieolicaen. exrt,roermeol‘yog(tesedesil.abase iist,oarilerneti„
they elected the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland. tor P.e
electors for Preston were never found fault with thet red te"e'
fsmily connexions, nor great property, for
would they be now, if the manner in which they elected
t he thittert
him (Mr. Hunt) were properly, known. 110,"aearr Peats..
intent had taken care that lie should not be 3,1 rel of
arl:fitt.e:rrtnot hen(e:
roan. He had not
.forced himself on the 11001 t",strel-
I nat
Manchester
was
then,st originally
amassacre.
they
heyi nii
done
therenhecelectors
o otrtisliel
)7, oldoat -
Wo f tj'he 'tads
d
oitilteit
were in the possession of the great manufacturers. free arm, who
electors had been struggling for twenty year, tc't oc, kedg
themselves from the power of their masters. 00 thetrir t'aceete'vi
easion four hundred families were turned out 01 tea liatet ti
homes for having voted for him. At the last electian !of f for
electors railed upon him to come forward ; but be °Pod tetsaseai'tur,
that they were hound down by the manufacture,* ite? "Seletta4te
that he would not come forward. What was the set,e'
sr 'INA kr
of
The election took place, and without his being p"afor Weetrh
ef
within 200 miles of the place, 3,030 electors Onsiglit "nle, Lo
him in throe days. Why did they not vote for the ;los ';,Pre,e
Hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Stanley)? Not heed tite roues hat
they bare any hostility to him, but because they had teacart' ei'kd 111,4
Act of Settlement, which said that no placernan as "le Isez-eee
sinner should sit in the House of Commons. .Agel'erit *eitla
must declare his objection to the qualification svj'ech/ 11aYetir Ye'
was proposed should entitle a person to a vote. t s ern, t
should not a man who paid a rent of 91. be entitled !to !het ate an
vote as well as his neighbour who paid I/. more.e ehekeral
measure which was now brought forward should ttthte,erni_isl
cotnpanied by the vote by ballot, it would prove beer die .4ctserl'e
If not, Le believed that it would only tend to rendes oe 'den
state of the representation more corrupt by increastegaife !keel!' in
power of the aristocracy, who"e dependents would 101 N..: to
the privilege of voting. The question of Reform bad, (thea4
t
on the present occasion been agitated by itinerant o,t,"e for `.llt,e j4t
as used 'to be said to be the case formerly. It Was ft`l'et dee 411 inci4)-'
by the voice of the united kingdom. He believed tracer 1 the whtiniFel
present measure would create such agitation as haueeritee'
been known.—(Hear, from the Opposition.) Moil)" eretale—r;
of the Common Hall and Common Council of the PI (Ilene -0e '
London were about to take place, and he hor„„,, r,
there would be meetings in every town and '"''Teeet' t'red hats
the kingdom. He had nothing to sles with that oaese tt4ttle,eat
ings. Whilst he :was allowed to speak in that °45 ‘lNberut
he would do very little our of doors. Whilst he Ad
kileets,ot b'
allowed to express his opinions in that House, he giti,a 41,' ‘‘.
leave it to others to agitate out of doors.—(Uesr" Itleer Jest:
laugh:)—No new light hail broken in upon hinlee: iletalr4le sa
17(
point. He bad always said the same thing when ":
attended purity dinners, and other affairs of that hit l 0
which a little knot of representatives were accusteal,'o aljwitlPm"i"
utter language which they did not dare to use wit' per: 4:44 le'tt
avails of that House. Ile had always said that th°°esr", ettiuter .
sons ought not to dictate to the people out of docaso, 10; Nil, lesa
they had the power of speaking in the House. elegant
out of doors expressed opinions with respect to tbag o'l 1;414:-(Alt
which were, perhaps, erroneous. He had Okelifillic; r;
opinions from others. Judging from the treatrnenti 0 ba," " a
he had met with in the llouse, he should says t ler 1).1,4 tete,tv'
the
thve-t:el'e
House had been misrepresented to him. He did l'eltlil°ot
t l
angry at being occasionally interrupted. He yeiterce'e "t'elat tie dies ain
generally trespass so long on the House as he had Ited of 4
the present ocaasioe, but having so long rativoced", tat left
principle of Reform out of doors, he should 113:1ioat'e le ea lit
ashamed of himself if he bad not expressed his crltelealifet tYluppe,'
the House. He regretted that he had been camp , %r 4 race
address the House before the Right Hon. Me°,,,,,-es flt ti 4airs-P
Tamworth, and the Hon. and Learned Mern":o
Boroughbridge. Hitherto he had heard nothing;;.ti, ee (I
course of the debate which he was not familiar; bid', bolt teat
the meetings of the Lancashire weavers. Ifeh''isers I sseetea'
would permit, he would stay to hear the two I"em- A
'e
th 4bi
whom he had alluded.—(A laugh.) t 1151,11tts,
Lord MoereTtr and Sir C. WETHERELG rcsie :tit 1" hi,p)theate,
same time. There was a loud call for the latter,
SrEAKEIt declared in favour of the former, and It' oft ie ein
, the ins
Lord AIORPETH addressed the House. He l)cis 5111y14
it
the present moment to be the awful period 0; 6,1,:ti0r fort `;'ate
before the momentous result in which the future
tbc4reil ei,„thia ea
of the country were seriously committed, srld as CA tkrti4f Pal
every one who felt a deep regard for his country „roil 'On of
upon to lift up his voice in serious and anxious ts'
rl to 11'55
It was clear, beyond all doubt, that the present (4141 4
cal juncture in the history of the question °reap" beit''atio,
which bad never before occurred. The question °, spathe e"
long and often agitated, but more as a matter ot,thoetej hte't
him
"peculation, and constitutional antiquity, and °Yeile °ere ,4taf
taut
taking such deep root in the feelings of the Pc7,e es, gee
the present occasion. It came now recomineouco 0;0, ste et,
notice of the representative body by the unanie° rstDia Pete that
of the whole country, and was submitted to theo (4,g, 'lark's-het
rnent by the confidential and responsible orfia e,strlobe !eat Seed,
Majesty. He would characterise the measure stye tliitetr, 6
honest, glorious, and manful measure, although, tiefOlesS !tate and
Member for Aldborritiela had, described it as frigtoo6.o, 4 tieit",
horrible.—(Hear, hear.)—A more complete aa %it
of pledged faith had never been given than b),,00,1 144 1104
niaters who had brought forward the pregentiiiebi:ibi rheas
He would not deny that it presented points on %," PTO tvseNt
ingenuity might fasten—at which petty critic it 01( • ,ftl,tt Cat
cavil, or even conscientious caution pause ; "teae gt# 4.)
aalk
the root of the evil, end the remedy proree"oitt.P-01ef
tical and easy. It placed the elective franchise
tit, 0 test !ese';‘''h:
reach not only of the man of property, but of 0040.00 qtt,"q's
common industry it enabled a man too,
arc" tt%that
House without possessing. the snails of a Vs°, for ;:otr. Ai a
favour of a Corporation. The Hon. Menthe,' alitielier
ton had comp' rine(' that the plan submitted Menthe,
eirt‘c
excluded all the lower classes from a share t.° t its f°
it'ilaitst;
sentation, but he (Lord Morpeth) thought t.s.ssl,
.ssbyre k hohlths
would ire to inspire those classes with a vl'tb'ea °e ye' t ttel
provide them with the means, of obtaining bei;pett:
ioq
in the representative system.—(Hear, he3r4oo. :sl°A
There was, however, one thing in which the
.100n:lioir askes:ea I
her for Preston and the Noble Member for et. res „the
gala 'es Its piled
both agreed—namely, in bringing a charge' es d p
tens for not disfranchising Gable, Taviatock,:; topeea' o'eht."
borough. The statement which he was ak 0,15.5 t; rltate,
would satisfactorily account for them not hts‘otei‘t 10010,
Caine contained 4,549 inhabitants ; Taet:t eet, ,t,e
and Knaresborough, 5,283. —(Hear, hear.) eer 'Aso 1,;,Y
than this, he begged leave to tell the Mernher
the 1004
pulous town of Preston, and the Ale-ober
tfahroetechh:ertt,;o)rite
1110:t1t)tithi:
Aldborough—(A larret)—that though
nC
were not disfranchised, they were opened.-'l, `th cer onc kt4l'l//4
Of the other boroughs he could not IVA 1:01d
but he knew that after Knareaborough of of to
opened, it would be impossible for the P"ltetiebeeet° erth.se
tr:
shire to influence the voters. tie had heir, but b tf e,'
danger of advancing in the canoe Refortno; itilotee the s!thetr,`*:
avialt any one to point out the safety of rt: 3fret°9 a
'listen er ;bateas
were. Was there no danger of ae° tbe e °tattle "a,
present representatives and the constitone 8010 e
alienation of these two bodies had long b rie that tor
If the House were not blind or mad, the,' ;50 rye toh,te
blessed loan of the present hour. It '3o:ien t°,,tia°l4if t:lisZ,l:l 4
measure muncher consideration was a cone; cootitied tee, 't
1%, 4'4
termineal and rancorous enemies of tin fad& r'Otb be r'its sa•
that it was their wishes which were heingsos faoe'taits Itstta,ttei:
work which was beine done. The caec,ere stye
e 0 the
wise. If such meddid exist, and there "lore the
13 it
toti 4,4141
found crazy radicals in every country who 0J the
fc
(i)vf
mgho
nearest
a ,esGovernmentttheir ahrevaltstesici;laso,rdtZtat,,e,,Pieeiciar,;oeelgeletidotd. tat
•e
obstinately reface the amelioration Whle° f theo. his 11s4etep
sl
by the sound and discriminating son'et°,,Attiodni
ke
Hoe Ithacus vent, et magno Mer_c_cororded s
The history of the CsOolie qUeStioll

7.: '1 ,übject of Reform. It, showed that when the Par- '
and
daeat did what was right, they removed disaffection,
flourdilled around them all the well-disposed. If the
fonWere prepared to declare that the demand for Re-
' W tbat 4, not proper,—that the evil was not manifest.,.7.
pttr:_qe corruption was not glaring,—they might ati.h
Gat consistency determine not to give up a stone of
sqiai and to die in the ditch of Old Sarum, where there
liNttc'thing but a ditch to die in.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
the' however, that the House would not so far outrage
son,leaae of the community as to say that they would
Re
feelttiell as entertain the question. The question of e•
of i_nad been supported by the constitutional authoritys
Chatham, the talent and integrity of George .
rce,'Ltbe Young energies of Mr. Pitt, and the consistent
of Mr. Fox. Those were high authorities. It
Clvrree there was one great name opposed to Reform.te
,!, the only point upon which he differed with the la
r t.,s,;?ning in the latter part of his career. What
rot Iry Canning would new have pursued, it was not
dow''''n to determine; but that great statesman hail laid
set:t.the principle, that when two extreme parties were
tle,rtnnfgteciety, it was the duty of a patriot. to steer,
Prevent both of them. Two extreme parties were at
toelieraOating the country. One was opposed to all
'its,' °ion, and the other advocated the worst species of
rtas with the view of subs citing the existing institu.
te'‘'' and all the gradations and ranks of society. Be-
kei' twee extremes the only safe path was the con-
11,;:te,e Principle to which the measure submitted to the
*itlLed. To that let them hold fast. By conceding
11"8 just, wise, and honest, they would be armed
ie.tenfeld power to resist what was unjust, unwise and
CHARLES WETHERELL, who had been pre-
tiei,o-NY called by the House, began by saying that it
was
the Pia called
in that House, when Members rose to address
L,it'"llse with the intention of trespassing up
i' on its at-
beSpeak its indulgence. Upon the present (x-
-''. 4 -0
bad a most powerful claim to that indulgence,
the litsiaPPeared from the list which had been produced by.
the 4°01:11e Paymaster of the Forces on the other of
e se' and which had been made known to him (Sir
he etherell) for the first time last night, that this ava%
Pretnt,l last time that be was to have the. honour of re-
41Boroughbridge.—(A laugh, and " hear.")--
lies et. C. Wetherell) was, therefore, in the unhappy pre-
elte,4,lt\ (4. rising to make his last dying speech.---(Loud
thei --11 ever, then, there was a case that demandedl,llo% 4,4 i dulgence, and which was granted to any Member
hi 'ticited the
attention of the House, it was due to
kteeti go was in extremis, when he trespassed upon their
'NW " for the last time. He was now askingwhathe
ii,ia;mil"ter ask again ; and the House would doubtless
thi+7„,tthis the last request of the dying Member of ar-
-4.• 1"r Ilero libridge...--(Laughter.)—Hedid not ask
t5l hOWeUfer, to re-animate his drooping mind, to
.ele"at" bis expiring' feelings ; for, notwithstanding. the
Ile)teh-4titer of the Forces had introduced into his list the.
Ver of Boroughbridge as a cashiered Member, he (Sir
}let of
should, in defiance of that list, or of the.
itsjee L'prd's new constitution of the Parliament, still
'ent that borough, which the Paymaster . of the
ood Iltad, in his list, so presumptuously cashiered.—
erellteers, on the opposition side of the House.)—
With Lord, of whose talents he should speak
I)l4,•,:Peet, and especially of those which he had dis-
ilie•,'"ani the exposition of a difficult plan would permit
there 4 an expiring Member of Parliament, to say, that
tti.:itteeteed to have been a sort of elective attraction, as
"ernistis called it—and a chemical term was a good
to.,,he employed in thie case—whereby the Noble Lord
ltte,-I.4ldenly imbibed the properties of office ; for the sub-
iiste;g' in this summary manner 120 Members of Par
intent to a sentence of cashierment, unheard, wiinquired
thaPs(l.l"r)—looked more like a military proscription,
•:7What was vulgarly called Parliamentary Reform.—
theiZl•)----The House would permit him, and he asked
genFe, though it was not his intention to treat
Petlir,7oe circle of this subject, to touch'upon one or two
tliefe-„TarY points on this extremely important question.
qalißegan, however, he wished to refer to what had
•'l..reern an lion Gentleman who had la cmtly spoken
1%1',1,11".)--Tlie. Hon. Gentleman had doubtless consi-
!,rsee(th-'at what he had said by way of argument was an
Itieli;'tt In favour of the Bill; but though the
.Hon.
tee, eraser
bad said that he should yote for the his ar-
hitiP. went strongly against the measure.. Although
,rlefe';'itssrl'a Ministers had assumed that thtsir system of
altelitn worilei content all classes of the people, the Hon.
it ets.'eir "id, that instead of producing unusual content.
Ise-1.,44t1 Produce great agitation.—(Cheers.'nit et er )—The Hon.
dirt himself, as well as him (Sir C. Wetherell),
llardweo , in supposing that any argument lie brought for-
Tr uld not
same with the House the sae as that of
I,titt.her Member, and would not be similarly dealt with.
the'' 11". Member had made a most satisfactory reply to
laq legfant and masterly
reply of the Hon. Member for
(Mr, Macaule
) ho had dsplayed such force of
Ihe-ol:ge and Power
oft fancy, as did; not often come under
gtif ti'lervation of the House ; and he (Sir C. Wetherell)
Nei `Pght it would be a little clog and impediment to
tkt, stranchisement of incompetent horoughs—(Hear)—
t,NO,,
that he found, and he should be glad to know the
il4-1:, the exception, that the borough of Caine was
jeatet left the
of the disqualifying list, and was notbo d
Ise 'lke other boroughs.—(licar.)—lie was oun t Ppo
se
se that Ministers had some reason to allege for
this
from the measure, founded on the principle
te'lite '441 justice, and that it was not an act of gross par-
ii.-(llear)—but none had been stated.—(Hear.)—
~ •er,
'trtigle rez and repeated, that no gentleman had stated a
to Ntli, nwhY Caine should be retained, whilst other
Atitie ,I.'et"e to be disfranchised.—(Hea!-.)—Let, then,
u'o Alinister get up and state it ; but Ca I,.ne
"rtesOrel ere rather shy of corning into the field. lies,
e4thaeli Ministers were shy : they let their friends be-
-Ith feenihattle it fore and aft, and they received. tbe re
el; 41d i front; but no Aliuister would rise and enter.
11,1, Person. Therefore, if there had been no part-
(•:r this:: Person,
Borne Minister get up and state the reasons
te'.'ll,,,ofia're,e,pt.ion, and rescue the Cabinet from the suspi-
Ilse% "ality.—( wouldnow call the at-
Hear. )—He
tile net, a,41 .!'._e house to the subject immediately, before it.
0 re, ere, that in long debates, elegance was too apt
b.gat,tioallWaY with accuracy.—(" Hear," and a cry of
epoktie The Hon. anti Learned Gentleman paused.)
bet a Member who raised that cry, and who never
Lrh• I,;elb desire to withhold him from a digression of
`rien -,,sT Did the Hon. Member who cried " hear"
ford -468.1t"b" and who said nothing else, and never af-
'ciii that4l/4' an opportunity' to reciprocate the cries,-
1, no- Member behind the chair—(oh .)—sup-
esi,:s"-iit he t
(licar.)—lt
red, , would not pursue the sub eec _
ti 'the tnerl, tthis Bill of the Military Pay-
-6°
b 4
and
,oroughs were to he
i and the right of sending 120 Members to Par-
that 47 were to lose one Member each, and
this 1.10714ne01e that 168 Members were to be ejected from
tei',lll aq lie (Sir C. Wetherell) lid not wish to call
wophat ti:)."enaive term, but as a great man (Mr. Locke)
V. 4 tall thin
should be called by their right names, lie
4,) it by the name of " Corporation robbery."__
I),rillbct Sixty corporations were to be robbed of IVO
he No:: arid forty-seven were to be robbed of one Mem-
ent4thert „ 18 Members were to he annihilated ; 168
es o 'vete, .
thee, that ito no longer• than this I'arliament existed, to
the 114 aZ it'a.--(Cheers.) How would this sweeping
theeet the nerves of the lion. the First Lord of
Of ,t1.61:41tY, who had told them,—not in violation of
totted Iliouges of Parliament, not in breach of the orders
thet e,”---but who had, he would say, just inti-
°lfitioll le rejection of this measure might lead to a ti,t!to he
taken
Parliament ? So much for the 168 Alm-
i'erl:ll rnaa,aketi away; but then there was a sort of resti-
tekke44 ;,e'reept that there were to be sixty-two
'ell the ,0,7 1-hit.we than there were now. But did this
tri n,nerY less ? Was it less a measure of robbery
14' p.. "f tbey took from A. 11 and C. D. and gave
aka :tee .
Pieiets " the House was to he composed of. sixty
enA ark thtlih than at present? This cutting off, this at
If
Members was an odd sort of a thing._ If
who "h3alneant to satisfy the class whom the Hon.
I'ititel!Rht be
_-Ininet spoli.en took under his vigilant
buttn' tented with such a change of the elective
tutP,ad e,,e_ 0. reformer yet, still hiss a reforming Ca-
;liMosluced a plan of Reform which began
l'jt --(Cheers-) This was a plan for which
flykihe," Present Cabinet deserved the credit he pre-
tt%e.,,_ttatiet ,f.'tthoef ANitilmee and Co.—(Order.) The present
,r). to hay Lord anti his associates, then, who
•the his
.ee ed upon the precedent in
yCe, aeld
Co. el' had been set, by Cromwell, Fairfax,
relit,''.?. .-(Cheers.) Those worthy reeicides
etl4oitee'„and this ung the nureiber of Members of the
isi the 'a Plan of cutting off the boroughs and
‘t'''t44litY, nu Plan
of Member, had not the merit of
ei fie it „.
th
teieh d as almost the same in form, in sub-
nelPle, as the radical system of Reform
eon; introduced by regicides, when they este-
L'te
ghat the in England.—(Cheers.) Yet
tta~ rolee. object of the measure was to preserve
irrititlub"B--(llear.) Conservation was to
17,t4tie:14ernivetii: aYstern--(Hear)—it was to preyent
tka and to establish a system of repre-
itn,tieri_ ke
an,
°with the prerogatives of the Crown,
tote}! of the '.she Constitution, the exercise of the
kertotty:f
thrieocznotfryL;ords, and without danger to
yet this plan for a constitu-
/vent to destroy the balance of the Con ti-

tution, the church, and the prerogatives of the Crown.—
( Hear, hear. ).---Was it not so ? „If not, let some one con-
tradict it ; if it was, let no one say that the measure of
1643 was not equally mischb vous, and equally subversive
of constitutional rights and franchises when promulgated
in 1831.—(Cheers.) But his wish was to coefine his
observations as Notch as possible to tie topics which arose
immediately out of the measure. Gentlemen on the other
side said, " Those who oppose this Bill must be prepared
to negative the possibility of Reform." He (Sir C.
Wetherell) was one of the number who opposed this Bill ;
—(Hear)—but he had never said there was no possibility
of improving our representative system.—(Hear.) He
had never said we could not improve our election law, or
introduce any practical improvement into the system in
general ; he had never said that this could not be done by
a legal and gradual course of dealing with cases as they
occurred ; he was not of the number of those, though the
gentlemen opposite, by what he would call a kind of trick
in argument, said, " unless you accede to any plan
which is produced by Government, you must contend
that there is no possibility of Reform." This might
he very good logic in Downing-street, but it was not
so in the House of Commons,—to say that any person
who opposed a specific plan which emanated from Go-
vernment, must necessarily assert that it was not possible
to improve our Constitution. But that was the dilemma
in which the gentlemen on the other side wished to place
those who differed from their opinion ; that was the fidlacy
on which they relied,—that those who opposed their plan
opposed every plan. Why, if that logic was used in a
baker's shop, a hammer would be called for, and it would
be treated like a spurious shilling, and nailed to the counter.
(Loud laughter.) He had heard of Hon. Members, in
furtherance of this measure, perambulating the broad
streets of Marylebone. Why that logic would not du
there. They had taken under their protection the Tower
Hamlets, and Wapping and Shadwell ; the logic would not
go down even there. He would now recall the House to
the position of the question ; and he concurred with the
Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walsh) who had spoken so well and
written so well on this subject, that the question was,
whether we were to have a reformed or a totally new
Government ; it was not a question of a slight Reform of
our constituent body, but whether we should have a con-
stitutional Government radically,—he meant not the word
in a sarcastic but in a logical sense, but also sarcastic—
(A laugh)—radically new, atol distinct from the existing
force of Government. Did gentlemen recollect how many
experimental Governments were now afloat?—(Heir.)
Did they recollect that there was a smithy of political
blacksmiths, where Constitutions were continually on the
anvil, which was at work in making experimental Govern-
ments for all Europe ?—that there was a question to settle
as to a constitution for Greece?—another as tea charter for
Portugal ?—that in Belgium there were yet unsettled the re-
lations of the President and the Representative Government?
Did gentlemen recollect what bad taken place in France?
Did they recollect that in South America, for the
last seven or eight years, new Governments were con-
tinually appearing ; and :hat, notwithstanding, they had
no government there yet.—(Cheers.)—Let him (Sir C.
Wetherell) he permitted, as he was in extrentis, to utter
the last dying expression of the wish of an expiring man,
—he must distinguish his natural death from his civil
deatlo—it was, that Great Britain might not he added to
the catalogue of experimental states ; and that these visio-
nary projects—(Cheers)—of his Majesty's Government
might not be realized.—(Cheers.)—To the danger likely
to result to ourselves from an experimental Government,
was to be euperadded the danger in relation to all Europe,
which was at present in a state of absolute dissolution.—
(Hear. )—Yet this was the time which his Majesty's Mi-
nisters had chosen to bring forward this experiment, and
to stretch out a new Constitution, as if the venerable Con-
stitution of Great Britain, as it had been handed down to
us, had not been undergoing continual improvements, and
might still go on receiving such emendations as could be
safely and securely made.—(Hear.)—Was this a time
when Europe was in disorder, when every thing was at
sea,—was this a time to hoist the flag of innovation, and
sail on an experimental cruise in search of a new con-
stitution? Why was the experiment to be made now?
Were the Hon. Gentlemen, now on the other side
of the House, whose talents he admired, and whose
associate he once was,—he alluded to the Foreign
Secretary, the President of the Board of Control,
the Judge Advocate, and the Clerk of the Ordnance,—
were they of a different opinion now from that which
they expressed on the 18th of February lest year, when
they negatived a plan of Reform introduced by a Noble
Marquis opposite, which, in comparison with the present,
was parsimony and moderation ?—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir
C. Wetherell) had been attacked for obstinately retaining
his opinions, and he granted that there might be an error
in too great a tenacity in this respect: but there was a
still greater error in throwing open the arms to conver-
sion ; and if he was in fault for retaining his opinion too
closely, they were amenable to the charge of relaxation.—
So it was: of the Members of the present Cabinet three
had last year negatived another plan of Reform, not allow-
ing even the Bill to be brought in, yet in a few short
months they bad joined a Cabinet pledged to Reform ;
and although opposed to that measure, they had associated
and mixed with the advocates of Reform, and become
part of what was now a unanimous consolidated Cabinet.
(Hear.) Having shortly alluded to these topics he should
now proceed to the main subject before the House. He
had said that the plan of the Noble Lord was a Corpora-
tion
robbery; it was a robbery, to the extent he had men-
tioned, of 168 Members, their privileges, and their fran-
chises, from a Constitution which would last as long as
the world lasted. He was glad to see the Hon. and
Learned Attorney-General slid not labour under the
sweeping disqualification which bad fallen upon him.—
He now represented a place which he (Sir Charles
Wetherell) once represented, and if, contrary to his
expectation, he should be driven out of the House as
Member for Boroughbridee, he might find his way there
again as Member for Nottingham. He had taken the
liberty to call the measure before the House a Corpora-
tion-robbery; and as there had been special commissions
sent into the country for the trial of machine-breakers, he
wished there could be a special commission issued by the
Crown for the prevention of corporation-breaking. But
his object was to put it to the House, what the powers of
the House were on this question. No man could assert of
the omnipotence of Parliament, that the acts which, if
down by the Crown, were illegal, might not be legal if
done by Parliament. But if the Crown could not confis-
cate a Charter, the Parliament would hardly venture to
act upon a different principle. Charters and franchises
ought to be as sacred in Parliament as in any Court of Law
in the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) He believed, nay, lie
was confident, diet it would be found that the journals of
that House did not contain a single precedent for this mon-
strous act of spoliation—this civil sacrilege : nor would it
he found in any case that Parliament ever assumed to it-
self a power of disfranchising a corporate right—that is,
of abrogating any Charter—without a clear act of delin-
quency having been previously established against it.—
(Cheers.) No ; it was not till the present military-law-
principles, that Corporations were condemned without
trial or hearing. He defied the whole Cabinet, and all
its deputies, military and civil, to cite a case of any cor-
poration having its chartered rights abrogated at one fell
swoop, without a came of delinquency having been insinu-
ated against it,—without any form of trial, without any
pretext, palliative of such monstrous conduct, without any
shadow of argument ; unless, forsooth, the telling them
they were bigotted adherents to the laws and usages of the
Constitution were received in argument.---:(Cheers.) The
course which the present consolidated and unanimous Ca-
binet proposed to themselves to follow, was not only lop•
posed to every recognized principle of law and justice, hut
was omitted to every precedent of Parliament. What
did they propose to do? Why, no less than without hear-
ing, without trial, by the mere fiat of their own tyrannical
will, to deprive thousands of the rights which they enjoyed
under the Constitution. He said they had no precedent ;
he corrected himself, there was one. On the Journals of
the House would he found, that in the time of Richard
an act was passed for disfranchising the borough of Cam-
bridge. The circumstances which gave rise to this anoma-
Imis proceeding at least could not he quoted as a ground for
the proceeding of this consolidated and unanimous Cabinet.
It was the consequence of the very violent conduct of the
townspeople against the University—of the town against the
gown. The Vice-Chancellor was imprisoned, and the stu-
dents who attempted his rescue dreadfully beaten. On a
representation of the proceedings being mode to that House,
as an example it was deemed expedient to confiscate Cam-
bridge of its corporate charter; but that Parliamentary-
confiscation was at a subsequent period, as they ell knew,
reversed ; so that even that solitary instance of Parliamen-
tary confiscation would fail the Noble Paymaster as a pre-
cedent. Then, there hieing no precedent, he should be glad
to hear from his Hon. Friend the Attorney-General; the
Constitutional legal adviser of the Cabinet, upon what prin-
ciple of law he would justify the present audacious attack
upon the corporate rights of so many of those ridiculed
places called small boroughs. He should like to hear from
his Hon. and Learned Friend what argument be would sub-
stitute for the absence of precedent. Indeed, highly as he
respected the Requirement and ability of his Hon. Friend,
he doubted very much whether even he could holster up this
insuperable defect of the great measure of the unanimous
and consolidated Cabinet, whom he was, in virtue of his
office, bound to supply with a few grains of law,—and
much they were wanted—(A laugh)_ _whether even be

could lay his finger on a single page of the Journals of that
, House which could at all warrant such an act of wholesalm•
confiscation—ave, of civil sacrilege. When the Govern-
ment shall have told them the legal grounds on which his
Hon. Friend had recommended—or rather, he should say,
sanctioned—for from one so eminent as a lawyer, he could
not think so illegal a measure could originate—he should
he prepared to meet him. As he was, he would tell him
and them, again and again, that their measure was one
opposed to every principle of law and jostice—justice—teas a mea-
sure whirls no Cabinet with which the history of this
country had made us acquainted could have sanctioned.
It was a measure which only some Crozne:ellian band,
ruthless of all law, and of all those usages which the Con-
stitution had preserved for ages, could have ventured to
propose as a remedy for any compl mint of the public mind.
the again would ask this unanimous and consolidated
Cabinet, or any of its Deputies, to answer this simple
question ;___When was there ever committed—where was
the instance—wh at constitutional precedent was there for
ao gross en act of injustice, as, by one compendious and
confiscating measure of the Noble Military Paymaster to
deprive whole towns and individuals, without a single '
crime being alleged against them—without warning, with-
out any species of 'trial whatever—of their most sacred
rights as English freemen ?—( Hear.) H in
deed,
expect did not,
to be referred for precedents for this wholesale
measure of spoliation to the confiscating times of Henry
the Eighth. That Monarch, they all knew, had ef-
fected extensive sFoliations of monastic property ; but then
he did it openly, as an act of rude, despotical spolia-
tion, wholly opposed to every usage and then recognised
principle, civil and religious. His were the acts of a
violent despot ; pray, would they be cited as a case in
point, justifying the Noble Paymaster's equally wholesale
intended spoliation ? Would the machinery of Henry be
adopted to attain the same end ? That Monarch had laid
his hands on several large abbeys, the heads of which re-
sisted, as far as they were able, his rude violence. What
did he do? He indicted them as traitors, anti thus com-
pelled them into what was called a surrender of their
charters. This was robbery secundum artem, not only in-
dependent of all law, but opposed to every principle. In
the present case, this mockery ef a surrender of chartered
rights would not, it seemed, he had recourse to ; and by
a plan still more iniquitous, if possible, than the uncon-
stitutional spoliations of Henry VIII., the chartered rights
of 60 boroughs, returning Members to that House, were,
without trial, without offence, without any pretext what-
soever, to be taken away at the will or caprice of a Cabinet
theorist. The lion. and Learned Member then proceeded
to say, that if he were wrong in his assertion that Mini-
sters had no precedent for the present measure, he would
acknowledge his error if set right : but he believed that
he should not. Ile asked for explanation on this point;
he wished to know by what fiction of law, by what theo-
retical arrogance, by what sophistry could this measure be
justified? To be sure they were told that they were
bigots, for that, it appears, must be the future name of
that once honourable title of Tory. Well, ellen, as it
would be supposed he was only quoting a bigot's opi-
nion were he to cite the authority of any distinguished
advocate of Tory principles, lie should like to hear
what 3lr. Fox, the great Whig leader, thought on the
subject of Parliamentary confiscation. The opinions of
that eminent individual had already been referred to by the
Noble Member fur Yorkshire. Now, though lie was far
front being a blind adherent to the doctrines so ably ad-
vocated by Mr. Fox on very many subjects of great public
interest, he still thought the unbiassed, calm, and unin-
fluenced-by-party-motives opinion of so experienced a
statesman, well worthy of attention from his veriest po-
litical opponent. It might be remembered, that in conse-
quence of some riotous proceeding. which took place at an
election at Nottingham, it was proposed to disfranchise
such of the electors as had been the greatest delinquents
on the occasion. To be sure the occurrence was rather
droll after all—if droll it would be considered now-a-
days. There was a procession in which a dame, not over
and above distinguished by the immaculate purity of her
habits, was paraded as the Goddess of Reason.—(Laugh-
ter)—there being the proper accompanying paraphernalia
of tri-colours, of the fashionable colours of the day.
Well, the goddess was paraded in great pomp, and with a
great crowd of enlightened worshippers, till the procession
was interrupted by the refusal of some gentlemen of the
Tory interest—bigots, according to the new-fangled doc-
trine of the Noble Paymaster-Deputy of the unanimous
and consolidated Cabinet—(hear, and laughter)—to pay
divine homage to the strumpet goddess, for which
bigotted refusal they were told they should have all
their coats spencered.—(Laughter.)—The matter came
before that House, and after a long discussion, Mr.
Fox gave it as his opinion that he would oppose any
measure of disfranchisement on the ground that the " Bill
would be a bed precedent, because if followed up it would
not leave an existing corporation in existence."—(hear,
hear.) Such was the opinion of Mr. Fox,—an opinion
which he knew not how his Hon. and Learned Friend the
present Member for Nottingham could get over. He had
just been reminded that Mr. Fox was also opposed to the
disfranchisement of Shoreham, because he thought, and
that justly, that the conduct of the guilty electors in that
borough should not be visited upon the innocent ; and on
that occasion an individual whose opinion but seldom
chimed with Mr. Fox's, divided with Mr. Fox—namely,
the present Earl of Eldon.—(Hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member repeated his objection to the measure of
its being opposed to the uniform laws and usages of Par-
liament, and he called upon the Members of the unanimous
and consolidated Cabinet and all its deputies, civil and mi-
litary, aided by his Hon. Friend 'the Attorney-General to
boot, to quote a single instance justifying such a monstrous
act of spoliation of the•chartered rights of corporations as
old as the Constitution itself. How did the Noble Pay-
master mean to justify his disfranchising, at one fell swoop,
not less than 168 seats in that House? Should such a
measure,—such a daring violation of the principles of the
Constitution,—such a flagrant breach of all constitutional
rights, be sanctioned to suit the views of any mere arbi-
trary theory?—(llear, hear.) Was a Cabinet, now by
accident, and for this occasion only, unanimous and con-
solidated, to propose for the deliberate sanction of Par-
liament, that that House, which, up to the present mo-
ment front its institution, was essentially a conservative
body, should so fling aside all its usual characteristic at,
tributes, and become the greedy spoliator of so many
long-established chartered corporations? Where, if once
the principle of charter spoliation he admitted, were they
to stop? Did the Hon. Alderman (Waithman) behind
hint recollect anything of the quo errata robbery of the
corporation of the city of London's charter in the time of
Charles 11. ?—(A laugh. )—lf he did, then hie rote was,
to use a homely expression, as surely nailed down against
the present scheme of the Noble Paymaster as he (Sir C.
Wetherell) had nailed down the spurious coinage which
the military deputy of the cabinet had given them by
way of argument. And why did he thus count on
the Honourable Alderman's voting with him, simply on
the old maxim )iodic eras tibi—what may succeed to do
with respect to some obscure borough, may be tried
with equal success to-morrow with the corporation of
London itself ? And this brought him to his own imme-
diate case so far as he might be affected by the disfran-
chinement of Boroughbridge. The Hon. Alderman might
recollect that the attempt upon the rights of the Corpo-
ration of the City of London, in the time of Charles IL,
was made by the then Attorney-General, Sir Robert
Sawyer. For that daring violation of constitutional
right
Sir Robert was expelled from that House by a subsequent
Parliament—(Hear, hear)—and he ended hia days, a* it
was
.to be hoped none of his ilici,essors ever world, -ig-
notrAnyear, and laughter.) Now it might happen
that he (Sir C. Wetherell) wenid not again sit for-Bo-
roughbridge, but his ease would be ronch ‘etter than :sir
Robert Sawypr's as it was one thing not to be elected for
a place, and another to he turned out of the House by the
:Tee(titAll his objections
Time Hon: and
Learned Member,again to the Serpant by the shoulder.
mea-
sure, that It wow(' be a violation of all chartered rights,
wholly unsupported by precedents, and one of the conse-
quences of which, to all existitts Corporate rights, it
would be impoestb.e to foresee. Let the House' pause be-
fore it agreed to such a mischievous and most unconsti,
tutional measure. It should not be for a moment ten, that that the Chttrch, she Established Church of this
country, was a chartered body; that the tenure of the
Peerage was of toe same character ; that the Bank of
England and the East India Company, and every other
greet establishment of the country, possessed all their
rights and property; and utility, ansi value, public and pri-
vate, individttal and aggregate, tinder a charter—(Hear)—
which, like that of the about-to-be-confiscated boroughs,
might be at once violated if the dangerous precedent be
once supinely ad.notted.—(Hear.) Disfranchise without
a crime alleged, without a trial, without even the mockery
of a form of justice, the least borough in the kingdom,
and you open the door to the disfranchisement of the cor-
poration of the city of London itself. Where was the
distinction ? Would any lawyer in that House, however
acute, point out any even which a legal fiction would sanc-
tion ; would any statesman specify the limit beyond which
the disfranchising principle of the bill would not extend ;
would any man who heard him dare to say that the prin-
ciple which admitted that one corporation, not guilty of
gross misconduct, might be deprived of its chartered rights
solemnly guaranteed by the Legislature in its deliberative
tchapisacpoitiy;itwould not equally apply to all the other corpo-
rate bodies ?.__(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member dwelt on
at considerable length. He would take hie

stand on this insuperable objection to the principles of the •
Rill, without entering into an examination of its provi-•
sions. It was a measure which would be no remedy for
the evils of which the public complained, and the inevit-
able effect would be to divide the country into two great
parties opposed to each other—those who -had votes, and
those who had none,—and each dissatisfied with what he
had not.—(Heat.) And was this the great healing mea-
sure of the unanimous and consolidated cabinet who
agreed to support one day what they wets individually op-
posed to the day before? Was this the oil that was to allay
the troubled waters of the public mind ? 'Why it was
plain that its only effect would be to aggravate the ills
which it was pretended to remedy tenfold. Let them
consider the dismay which such a daring measure of
spoliation would produce among all classes of the ;tom-
munity. The monied men were anxions for the
safety of their property, now menaced by this mon-
strous charter-ilestrerying scheme : the landed in-
terest were naturally sqileamish fir their well-being :
And the church were fearfully awake to the daserroes
consequence to their rights of this most unconstitutional
and right-destroying innovation. They knew too well
that the men who coolly set at nought or destroy the ar-
chive, of a town-hall, would not much hesitate to cross
the portals of a church door—(Hear, hear)—and there-
fore they feel darns for themselves and the country. And
who did Ministers expect to satisfy by their spoliation ?
Not the reforming public out of doors, for their cry was,
" give as more representatives, we have not enough,"
while so far from adding to the number of that House,
the Noble Military Deputy's scheme went to lessen the
number by sixty-two.—(Hear, hear.) So, when the
reforming public asked for a plus remedy, this popular,
consolidated, and unanimous Cabinet gave them a minus
one. Then what, he asked, was the mode by which this
amorphous body proposed to carry their iniquitous mea-
sure? Why, neither more nor less than a meat audacious
threat to dissolve Parliament in the event of their failure.
(Loud cries of " hear.") Now he must say, with re-
spect to this most unconstitutional and insolent menace,
that the man who would be influenced by it in his vote
on the present momentous occasion, would be nothing less
thin a rebel to his country.—(Cheers.) The man, he
repeated whom such a threat, uttered by any Government,
particularly by one so vacillating and individually opposed,
and only united in this one monstrous measure of whole-
sa,le spoliation, would iufluenee---was a man wholly un-
worthy of the name of a British senator. Was a recreant
in morals, was a man wholly deaf to the call of conscience,
and of English liberty.—(Cheers.) Look at the ig-
noble situation, teem, in which it would place the House
even with respect to their common-sense consistency. The
Bill proposes to disfranchise a large number of seats, on
the ground that these seats are foul excrescences ; if it
passes, it calls upon the House to prononnce a stigma upon
itself of the blackest dye -. (Hear, hear)—it actually calls
upon the House of Commons to dissolve itself, on the alle-
gation that it is not actually what it states itself to be,—
the representatives of the people.—(This sentiment was
cheered by both sides of the House, as favourable to both
sides of the question.) Then the dilemma the House
would be placed in, should the Bill not pass into a law,
would be almost as had. Was, he asked, all faith in legis-
lative charters to be thus destroyed for ever in this
country, in obedience to an arbitrary theory ?—(Hear.)
Somebody asked Nat Lee, in one of his frenzies, what was
a charter ? He answered, nothing but a bit of scribbled
parchment ; and so, it should seem, with the present con-
solidated and unanimous Cabinet with respect to the cor-
porate rights of boroughs.—(Hear, hear.) They had
evinced a more becoming respect for public opinion in
abandoning the proposed transfer duty, so opposed to law
and usage, and why violate both with respect to the
right of returning Members to that House ? And this,
forsooth, was the great remedy for all the ills the country
laboured under. Ile should like to hear how the Right
Hon. the First Lord of the Admiralty would explain at
Cockermouth to his constituents his conduct since he last
addressed them. On that occasion retrenchment unli-
mited was to be the order of the day,—all burdensome
taxes to the middle and poorer classes were to be re-
moved, and the Constitution was to he restored to its
ancient splendour, by a full and satisfactory measure
of Reform. Now what answer could the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet make to one of his agricultural con •
stituents, if thus accosted by Well, Sir James
—(A laugh)—have you taken off the malt tax?"—
Hear, and laughter.) " No," quoth the Right Hon.
Baronet. " Have you," rejoins the farmer, " at least,
taken off the assessed taxes?"—(Hear.) " No," again
quoth the First Lord of the Admiralty—(Hear, hear, and
laughter)—" the House of Commons and a sense of duty
prevented me."—(Hear.) " Then," again quoth time
farmer, " since you have neither repealed the malt-tax,
nor the assessed taxes, what the d-1 have you done ?"
(Laughter.) " Why, we have not, to be sure, reduced
much taxes, but to make amends we have taken off sixty-
two Members."—(Continued laughter.) And the merry
conceit might pass on the hustings, as a redemption of all
his pledges of retrenchment, and all that sort of thing.—
(Hear, and a laugh) They most certainly proposed a
pretty considerable and somewhat novel species of re-
trenchment as a remedy for the ills of the country, re.
minding one of the process of that eminent practitioner
Mr. St. John Long.—(A laugh.) They found one sore a
' grievance, and they established a raw—,(Great laughter)
—by which they made the whole surface a mass of sores,
—(Hear and laughter)—and this they called Reform. The
farmer to whom he alluded on the hustings at Cocker-
month, finding that the promises of reduction of the Civil
List, of repeal of the assessed or malt taxes, all thus ended
in lessening the number of representatives in that House,
would very naturally scrutinize the mode by which this
last reduction was to be effected. He hoped that some
Member of the Cabinet would rise and explain the sys-
tem of Reform which wan going to amputate no less than
sixty-two Members of Parliament. He had now per-
formed,and he trusted within seasonable limits, that duty
which he owed to himself, to the British public, and to the
House of Commons, in snaking the observations upon this
Bill, which I,e had found himself compelled to make, and he
had now but a few words more to utter. There existed
in Cromwell's time a purge of the House of Commons.—
LL
;sr and cheering.)—The gentlemen on the op-
posite side of the House were close. imitators of the Crom-
wellian systems not only of his system of Parliamentary
Reform, but also of his sanatory purgative system ; for
they were prepared to expel, by one strong dose, no less
than 16S Members of that House. He did not know
what name he ought to attach to this specific ; for he
had not conceived it possible that the country would see
process a second time. Within the last
ve name of Russell's er, the House had been promised with a
it
as no name had yet been attached, he
ptr,3he,uoprrueegetl
eti
aoatintost
:ao,envfhhdbos ning at cheering fot some time.)—Yes, heetc,
purge.—(Roars of
laughter,
principle of the Bill was republi-
f(dCliheeers from the Opposition benches,
would call this Bill, Russell's Purge of Parliament.
" No, no," from the Ministerial.)—He said
c(aCnheittersit.s)--balst
of it was destructive of all property, of
privilege', and that the same arbitrary
thatd crtiit:es opfriticiple
11 d a majority
violence which expelled Members Alms that
' he time of the Commonwealth, was now, after
House. t
of a centorr from the Revolution, during which
the lapse
all right, of all
the population had enjoyed greater happiness than waseverenjoyed by any population under Heaven, proceeding
to expose the House of Commons again to the nauseous
• coetimeut of a repetition of Pride's pitrge.--(Cileers.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose amid loud cries of
Adjourn," which continued for some minute-a, and pre-
vented bites froth obtaining a hearing. Although he was
unwilling to persevere in addressing the House after a wish
had been expressed for an adjournment—(Loud cries of
if Adjourn," were again repeated)—he thought that the
me forward by his Hon. and Learned Friend who spoke
Manner in Athiell he had been personally called upon to
co
last, would obtain him a hearing in any: assembly of En-
glish gentlemeia which had heard the challenge. They had
beard of a tyratMieal Attorney-General who had been
banded to the door by the Serjeant at Arms, and had been
driven ignominiously from the House of Commons. Ile
must own that he was much surprised that his Hon. and
Learned Friend, when he anticipated his own dying speech
in that House, should choose to pair off with so detestable
an officer, as that officer was to whom his Hon. and Learned
Friend had likened him (the Attorney-General.) Really,
if hia Hots. and Learned Friend had no closer analogy than
this to produce.—(R.eiteratad cries of " adjourn.")—He
begged leave to ask Hon. Gentlemen whether it was in-
tended that they should on all future occasions adjourn at
ball-past twelve o'clock ? If that were to be made a rule,
he would not persist in addressing the House at present ;
but if it were, he wished to know how many nights they
(he Cr
was s of
consultingGo O n ihe go
best o n.
s'
intended to sacrifice to the discussion of this question ?
Were Hon. Members to be prevented from speaking be-
cause the clock was then pointing to half-past twelve?—
'atng of Heas
itssurteimd
ethhey requestingHousetlsat
to be permitted to speak at this stage of the discussion.
He would beg leave to tell his Hors. and Learned Friend
that no two eases could be more unlike than those which
he had endeavoured to assimilate together. He admired
the good humour with which his lion. and Learned
Friend had compared the purification of the representative
system, which this Bill attempted to -accomplish, to the
two purges of the House which took place in Cromwell's
times and to the proceedings on the quo warranios which

took place in the teigns of Chalks 11. and James IL, but
he must remind his Hon. Friend that though they might
prove a contrast, they never could bear any analogy to
each other. It was with astonishment that he heard his
Hon. and Learned Friend, who was well versed in the
history of his country and of its laws, mike so singular
an assertion ; and he could not recount lbr it, even when
hr took into his consideration all the excitement
under which his lion. and Learned Friend evidently
lithottred. His Hon. and Learned Friend had said
that this plan of Beform was like Cromwell's purge. What
his Hone and Learned Friend meant by venturing such an
observation, he could not pretend to divine. Did he re-
collect an istithority that hail aeways heel greet weight in
the Unieereity of Oxford, and that must be well !shown to
hie lion. and Learned Frier:a ? Lord Clarendon, in de-
ecriliing the plan of Reform which Cromwell brought for-
ward, raid that it was worthy of imitation ley other par-
ties.—(Loud cries of " Hear.")—Surely his Pon. and
Learned Friend did not meaer So say that Colonel pride's
purge had any thing to do with Crime:well's system o= Re-
fetin The periods of time at which they eteurred were
very difleieets h was at a later period than cadenel
Pride's purge, wheii, Weeder the Government of Cromwell,
a conservative plan was offeteel tt that House to preserve
the three estates of the realio,—not to pleaerr,: the person
of the notector, but to preserve the three estalca of the
realm as they exist at rTesent,—and that plan had no re-
eemblince to the purge of Colonel Pride, when the sol-
diers stepped iwo the House and catr`wd the mace away
front the table. Now, as to the quo recieeontee. The
quo ft:to-T(200.1 took away certain rights from corporate
undies ; but what right! did this Bill deprive them of e
The power of voting is no municipal right. The power
of selling a vote to a Duke or a Beer; or to a Duke's no-
minee or a Peer's nominee, however palateable soil dee
liehtful it might appear to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, was
not a reason why a corporate jurisdittion was established in
an; borough.—(Hear, hear.)—That certainly teas not
the primary ehject for which borough Cueporations
were formed ; fot hie Hon. and Learned Ft it nd,
the Member for Caine, had proved in a speech, which
was yet tingling in their tare, end which would
dwell in their no mories so long as their` wreneories lasted
—(Loud cries of " Hear")—that the principle on r•hich
the right of representation was originally granted to the
people of England, was the very principle on which they
were now going to extend it to that portion of the people
which was at present without it.—(Hear.)—He would
now put a question to his Hon. and Learned Friend who
had walked that evening with appirent great delight
at his own legislative funeral. " Merrict tears laughter
never shed" than those which his lion. and Learned
Friend and his hand of merry mourners had poured upon
his bier. He was happy to see his lion. and Learned
Friend disporting with such hilarity about his own grave.
—(A laugh.)—He and his friends mnst, one and ail, be
great philosophers, for they seemed overcome with joy in
having an opportunity to make that sacrifice to the public
which its welfare demanded.—(Laughter and cries of
" No.")—lie would ask his lion. and Learned Friend, and
those who were then acting with him, whether there was
to he any Reform at all? There was not one argument
which they had advanced that evening, which had not
gone to the extent that no Reform at all was to be made in
the constitution of the Commons house of Parliament.—
(" No, no," from the Opposition.)—He did not say that
such wait the object of the gentlemen who had used the
arguments, but it was unquestionably the point to which
all their arguments tended. His Hon. and Learned
Friend had said that he was no enemy to representative
ovement.—(Hear.)—When, where, hots', in what
shape, had his Hon. and Learned Friend ever professed
himself a friend to it? Ile (the Attorney-General) had
never heard such a sentiment from his Ham and Learned
Friend before—it was brought forward on the present oc-
casion to break with the public the force of the plan of
Reform whirls Government had now brought forward :
it certainly was not the practical view, which his
Hon. and Learned Friend and his habitue' political
Friends were accustomed to take on the subject,
and if it bad recently become their view, it was be-
cause they had been driven to it by the force of
public opinion.—(Loud cheers.)—lf they were advocates
to any extent, would they inform him what their plan
was, and how far it went ? if his Hon. and Learned
Friend had ever brought forward any plan of Reform, or
had expressed a desire to promote it before that night, it
was a fact in his Hon. and Learned Friend's history which
he had by some strange fatality completely overlooked.
Unless his lion, and Learned Friend and his political as-
sociates meant to Si)' that the miserable plan of disfran-
chising Evesham and East Retford seas their plan of Re-
form, and was one with which the public ought to be
satisfied, he knew of no plan of Reform which they had
ever patronized. That because in Evesham money had
been paid to the electors, and the payment of it had been
discovered by a Committee formed of Members who had
only not been found nut in narking such payments—
(Hear, and a laugh)—that because they were ready in
such cases to make the most vigilant inquiry into
the number of poor wretches who had contaminated their
fingers with the bribes held out to them by their wealthy
tempters—that because they were willing to do this, they
were to represent themselves friendly to Reform, was a
project against which he, as an honest matt, felt bound to
enter his protest.—(Cheers.)—He looked upon a plan of
Reform so difficult, and distant of execution, to be a need-
less expence of money and of time, and an limiting hypo-
crisy to the people at large.—(Great cheering.)—Even
the Noble Duke, who on the first day of this Session had
declared himself hostile to all Reform, and had asserted
that nothing could be devised better than the present sys-
tem of representation—even he was anxious in the last
Session of Parliament to have the Bill for the dis-
franchisement of East Retford pressed through both
Houses, in the hope that it would he a Reform which
would satisfy the mind of the public. Since that time
the voice of the public had made itself heard in every
part of the kingdom, and it now declared, in accents
that could not be mistaken, that any such paltry,
equivocating species of Reform would not give satisfac-
tion.—(Cheers.)—lt appeared to him that the argument
which had been brought foward by the Hon. Member for
Oxford on a former night, condemned the mode of pro-
ceeding which his Hon. and Learned Friend wished to
heveapplied to delinquent boroughe. His Hon. and Learned
Friend, as well as the Hon. Member for Oxford, had de-
fended our present system of representation, on the ground
that it worked well—that its results were beneficial—and
that trade, and rank, and ability, obtained entrance into
that House through the impure channel of corruption.
Perhaps they might ; but then with what consistency
• could the advocates of such an argument disfranchise East
Retford, and Evesham, and such places, where the door
into Parliament was regularly opened to the highest
bidder?—(Hear, hear.)—lt was as notorious as the sun
at noon-day, that seats in that House were as purchaseable
as stalls in Smithfield. Why, then, should they disfran-
chise the poor man, who had some excuse at least in his
poverty, for selling his individual vote, when they
permitted the rich man, who had no excuse of
poverty to plead, not only to sell his vote, but also to sell
the votes of all persons over whom he could exercise the
slightest influence?-e-(Hear, hear.)—Mr. Canning had
staved off for a time the question of Reform in the year
1822, by throwing into the back ground the abuses of
the present system, and by stating that the public mind
wee not alive to them. But had he lived now, as un-
fortunately he did not, could he have used the same lan-
guage? Certainly not—for the public mind was shocked
at these things ; it had taken a nausea at them—to use a
term from the vocabulary of his lion. and Learned Friend,
from which it could never again be freed by the administra-
tion of any quack nostrums. He would ask such Hon.
Gentlemen as had not yet forgotten the preliminary steps to
their late elections, and who recollected the applications
which they had received from different electioneering agents
to fight the battle of corruption as the third tnen in the dif-
ferent boroughs, for which they were agents, whether it was
possible for men to witness any thing more demoralizing
or more disgusting titan the processes by which the poor
electors of those boroughs were to he corrupted by their
opulent seducers ?_(Hear, hear.) The people of Eng.
land had at length discovered that the evil to which such
corruption gave birth was no longer to be tolerated.—
The Hone of Commons was called upon to redress it, and
he was satisfied that the Members of that House, as
English gentlemen, would not hesitate to pursue their in-
quiries into the practicability of redressing it by passing
the present Hear, hear.) If Hon. Gentlemen
were inclined to say that no Reform ought to be had, or
only much Reform as could be effected by an ex post facto
law, or a detestable Bill of pains and penalties, the
country knew what it had to expect from them ; but if they
said that Reform was necessary, hut that this plan of
Reform was not satisfactory, then he would ask them to
try their hands at producing a scheme which would give
them less annoyance, and would prove more beneficial to
the public.—(ll!ar, hear.) lie was willing to take his
share of responsibility—and in saying so he was taking
upon himself a share of credit that did not rightly belong
to him—for having assisted in carrying into effect, in his
professional capacity, the benevolent intentions of his
Majesty's Government. A Noble Lord, in an eloquent
speech which he had made last night, had said of the
close boroughs, that although the portal which they
afforded for entrance into that House might be com-
paratively low, honour and integrity might pass in
without stooping. He would tell the Noble Lord that

pnoortuiseuis,lshict.oh stticiapia,avt al I.
subject of England.—(Cheers.)
that Burke, anti Pitt, and Fox,
(Chem) -they only wished to find their way into
honour and integrity did
a.-de
ns ibhee Parliament
ryas
ot.
ahser
every
t
and other illustrious characters had one and owed
their introduction into Parliament to the defects in
the constitution of it which his Noble Friend's bill WaS in-
tended to cure, lat would reply that it was not for the hap-
piness or glory of those individuals that they had found
their way into that House by any other road than that of
the free choice of the Commons of England.—(llear.) It
happened, strangely enough, that all the opinions of Mr.
Fox, which the gentlemen opposite were so fond of quot-
ing, were delivered by him at time when he was sitting
for a close borough,—when he was a Lord of the Admi-
ralty; and, strange recommendation, when he was even
by law incapacitated by his youth from voting in that
House. The Attorney-General then proceeded to reply
to that part of Sir C. Wetherell's speech in which he had
accused the present Government of having brought for-
ward In their budget a measure which was a violation of
public faith. He conteeded that that stamp which they
had wished to place on the transfer of stock was not a vio-
lation of acts of Parliament sanctioning the contracts of
the Government with the loan contractors ; hut supposing
for the sake of argument that it were, the charge of a
violation of faith with the public creditor, came with a
very bad grace from those who had reduced the five per
cents. to three per cents. and had left no eption, for though
there was a nominal, there was no real option, to the
re-
duction.—(Hear,
iol alh'esa,r.h)e observedile
trustees of widows and orphans, but to accede to that
'er i
ntgh that asth et
the subject
tleo fL
Latta
had referred to his sitting in Parliament for a close bo-
rough, he would say a few words on that subject. In
the year ISIS, he was given to understood that there was
a wish that he should be in Parliament. Having
heard that there was at that time a vacancy in the
town which he had now the honour to represent,
he determined to offer himself to the electors. It hap-
pened that there was no vacancy. A seat, however, was
offerer: him for the borough of Wareham ; and, ta hey
shame be it spoken, he had not had virtue to resist it. He
should have reeptected himself more than he then did lied
he ken in postession of virtue enough to resist it. He
wished it to be distinctly understood, that a seat for a
close borough was not desirable a place as an independent
spirit would wish to obtain. Nothing could be more kind
and liberal than the conduct of those who gave him a seat
for that borough ; but at the end of time two first sessions
in which he sat in Parliament, there was a dissolution,
and then he found, that in the opinions of those who had
given him his seat, be had been found wanting.---(Hraie
There was then no nomination seat seat for him, and if the
town of Nottingham had not sent a deputation to him to
come forwerd, he should have been out of Parliament. So
far from such a Neat being all joy, he could assure the
House that it was quite the reverse. Could there, indeed,
be any thing more unpleasant than the idea of having a
secret Council always sitting upon your conduct, anti deter-
mining upon each vote, whether you ought to be permitted
Ito retain your seat in Parliament ?—(Hear, hear.) He
made no complaint against !how who gave him his seat ;
but when lie contrasted his situation as Member for a close
borough, with his situation as Member for Nottingham,
in which lie enjoyed the confidence of thousands, lie felt
that there was 110 more comparison to 1w made between
them than between the crumbling walls of Ahlborongh
anti the most stately and magnificent palace in Eng-
land.--(Loud cheers.) His Hon. and Learned Friend was
now advent from the House, or else he would have en-
deavoured to show, that there were circumstances in hie
(Sir C. Wetherell's) history, which forcibly illustrated his
argument on thin point.—(Hear.) After some other
observations, which our Limits prevent us from reporting,
the Attorney-General proceeded to say, that he had the
authority of Burke, and Pitt, and Fox, and Lord Chatham
in his best and proudest day, that Reform in the House of
Commons was absolutely necessary for the preservation c f
the internal quiet of the country. The observation of
Lord Chatham had been alluded to already in the course
of the debate. The remark of Mr. Pitt was equable well
known. He had said that " without Reform no honest
man \voids be, or could be, a Minister ;" and at a subse,
quent period of Mr. Pitt's life, when Mr. Fox reminded
him of that speech, he said " that he (Mr. Pitt) had lived
to carry his own prediction into effect." This occurred in
the year 1797, and he recollected that when he first heard
it, it made a strong impreasion on his mind. lie could
' not help reflecting how whimsical it was, that Mr. Pitt
should have gained the confidence of the House of Com-
mons, after he had failed in all the propositions which hue
had made to it, and that he could not get the same House
to give him credit, when be bail lived to verify his own
predic:ion.—(Cheers and laughter.) Every person who
was acquainted with the works of Mr. Burke—and what
man of education was not ?—must be aware that in his
celebrated speech for the conciliation of our differences with
the American colonies, he had quoted the preamble of the
Act of the 27th Henry VIII., by which the power of
sending two knights of the shire as their representatives
to Parliament, was given to the freeholders of the county
of Chester. It was singular enough that .\ 'r. Burke, who
at the close of his life was the decided enemy to all innova-
tinn, however singular, should have referred to that pre-
amble; and it was, perhaps, if possible, still more singu-
lar, that Henry VIII., time most arbitrary and despotic
Monarch that ever sat on the throne of England, should
have recognized the value of the representative system, and
should have considered it of importance in attaching the
affection of the people of England to the throne. The
preamble to that Act wait as follows :—" \Vhereas, the
said county palatine of Chester is and hath been always
hitherto exempt, excluded, and separated out and from the
High Court of Parliament, to have any knights and bur-
gesses within the said Court; by reason whereof the said
inhabitants have hitherto sustained manifold disherisons,
loss-s, and t4amages, as well in their lands, goods, and
bodies, as in the good, civil, anti politic governance anti
maintenance of the commonwealth of their said country:
and forasmuch as the said inhabitants have always hitherto
been boned by the Acts and Statutes made and ordained
by the King's Highness and his most noble Progenitors,
by authority of the said Court, as far forth as other
counties, cities, and boroughs have been, that have had
their knights anti burgesses within the said Court of Par-
liament, and yet have had neither knight nor burgess there
for the said county palatine; the said inhabitants, for lack
thereof, have been oftentimes touched and grieved with
Acts and Statutes made within the said Court, as well de-
rogatory unto tLe most ancient jurisdictions, liberties, and
privileges of their &lid county palatine, as prejudicial
unto the commonweala.it quietness, rest and peace of his
Majesty's most bounden subjects inhabiting within the
same." The Act then Renton to state, that the inhabi-
tants of time county palatine of CLeater should for the fu-
ture return Members to Parliament. It was in speaking of
that Act, that Mr. Burke quoted the well-k Down passage:—

Simul alba nautis
" Stella refulsit,
" Defluit,saxis agitates humor:
" (oncidunt venti, •ingiuntque 'tubes,
" Et minax (quod sic voluere) pont°
" Linda recumbit."

Which Mr. Burke translated in his own beautiful language
thus—" The day-star of British liberty then rose in the
hearts of the people, and all was harmony both within and
without." It had ,been thought necessary, however, by
some, to contend that Peers ought to have their interests
represented in that House, and that it was not inconve-
nient that they should. If this were so,—why, iet him
ask, had not every Peer and Prince of the blood his ac-
knowledged representative there ? They might have as
many representatives in that House as they had domestic
chaplains in their own houses, if the law allowed it them.
But the law did not allow this, and it was the mere acci-
dent of Peers having purchase.' boroughs which made it
worth while to consult them as to matters which ought to
appertain only to Members of that House, properly so
called. He contended, that far from being unconstitu-
tional, it was in strict accordance with the spirit of the
Cenatitution to take the elective franchise from decayed
and corrupted boroughs and send them to more healthy
places. By Mr. Pitt's plan of Parliamentary Reform, as
many as forty boroughs would have been got rid of. This
had not been forgotten by the gentlemen on the other side
of the House, but in recollecting it they had alluded to the
compensation which it was :then proposed to make to the
owners of those boroughs. Still, however, there was
one thing else to be remembered,—namely, that that
whatevereslr,nh st-ioot uclodtilhda compen-
sationbv ee
compensation was a, compulsory compensation, and he
forced to
contended
acceptt
thoughtlo ug h tt
hteh thatepi ~,nefrolevnreeesd ovfcconritmylohaep(
aiu,c,pnneta:l
iroa parties eroi
theirs
hc.,etcticordnsNc on
wb, e
ihneg
uitmghdll.elitrveltiwubaael:paid for that was not illegal, and for
d
might not be prosecuted under the election
elpttlther.‘inevi itsutceoghni si::;10tIte feheeoor.
that kt hnteeh
e‘ Attorney-Generalt a
Press;t
bt
uhte rI t, wh ei
oughtsome
tell
twts
to be
gentlemenb
He
oank.whole
no.f
m
tlemen that an Attorney-General might find occupation
much snore advantageous to the country than proceeding
againt those whose very violence prevented their doing mis-
chief, and only disgusted the people whom it was their
object to excite and. to exasperate.—(Cheers..) There
were other violators of the law which were much more
.dwahnigeekrowuesretow.tohree publicv—there
roo=rteddebolticruigrucenuphea.:
ment. Let them, therefore,. be it no moreurii
.131
antedd
rigida ; fur if a Peer chew Cu interfere, by dam