The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-27 00:00:00

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. F. FRENCEI said the Rite in Aid Bill stood on
the paper for to-night. Now, as Irish Mrtnbers were
anxious to know the latest hour at which the Noble
Lord intended to proceed with the Bill, he should feel
obliged if he would state his intentions.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that if the navigation-
laws lasted until ten o'clock he should not proceed with
the Rite in Aid Bill, but that if disposed of before that
hour he should proceed with the Hate in Aid Bill. He
proposed that the report on the navigation-laws should
be taken into consideration on Monday next. He should
propose on Friday a Committee of the whole House, for
the purpose of moving that 100,0001. be advanced,
upon the credit of the Rate in Aid Bill, for the re-
lief of the distressed poor in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
If a Committee of the whole House should agree
to that relief, he should propose afterwards that it be in-
serted in the Rate in Aid Bill as a clause in that Bill.
He likewise begged to state that he should propose, on
Monday next, that on Thursday, the 19th of April, and
on every alternate Thursday after that day, the orders of
the day should have precedence of notices of motion.
He also begged to give notice that, on Wednesday se'n-
night, he should propose that the House at its rising
should adjourn to Monday, the IGth of April.
MUTINY AND MARINE MUTINY BILLS.

These Bills severally went through Committee.
In answer to a question from Mr. HUME,

Mr. FOX MAtILE said no alteration of any im-
portance had been made in the Marine Mutiny Bill ; it
was essentially the same as the Bill of last year.

NAVIGATION BILL.-COMMITTEE.

The House resolved itself into Committee on this Bill.
On clause 19,

Mr. GEORGE SANDARS said he should postpone
moving the following amendment, which he had on the
paper, until the bringing up of the report:—ln clause
19, line 29, the omission of all the words after the word
"And," and to add " whereas it is expedient that
inducements be held out to foreign states to place
British vessels in foreign ports on the same footing on
which the vessels of such foreign states are placed in the
ports of this country; be it enacted, that, in case it
at the expiration of three years from the passing !
or this Act, be made to appear to her Majesty that
British vessels are subject in any foreign country
to any prohibitions or restrictions as to the voyages in
which they may engage, or as to the articles which
they may import into or export from such country,
to which the ships of such foreign country are nut
subject In this country, it shall then be lawful for her
Majesty in Council to impose such prohibitions or re-
strictions upon the ships of such foreign country as shall ,
place the ships of such country on as nearly as possible
! the same footing in British ports as that on which British
ships are placed in the ports of such country,"
Mr. RICARDO expressed himself in favour
of the principle of reciprocity involved in the
amendment, simply because he bdieved that it would
have the effect of carrying out the principle of the Bill.
The clause as it stood was likely to create some imp-di-
'ment, and as it was a merely formal portion of the Bill,
lie theugh& that tin Alterativa vrvuld, bc vf Admatage.

F Mr. LAB' )I.TCEIERF, :,aid that this question was one
o, hick had been fully iociaired into and aNswered (luring the
discussions on this subject last session, and he thought
therefore that it was quite unnecesssry for him to enter
into it. He entirely e:isagrecd with his Hon. Friend in
the belief that this was merely.a fOrmal part of the Bill;
on the contrary, he believed it to be a most essential
part. It vested the power in this country of retaliating
at any time upon foreign states should they
seek to take an undue advantage of our liberality.
He objected altogether also to the principle of
reciprocity, for that entered only into small things—it
only dealt with minutia), and rather impaired than ad-
vanced the power of a Government to protect the rights
of the subjects of its own country. So far from this being
an immaterial portion of the Bill, he must repeat that he
thought it to be a most substantial and important part,
and certainly should give his most strenuous opposition
to any proceeding which was calculated to impair the
Ministry in their effectual power to rightly protect
the shipping interests of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SANI)ARS thought that this clause ought to IA
more explicit. It was evident that the Governtnend
were shirking the matter, and the Right Hon. Gentle.
man who had been desirous of altering this clause bad
done so in a veto; cloudy way. The Hon. Member for
W,:stbury, Mr. Wilson, was still more careful not to be
explicit. For his own part, he thought that this clause,
as it stood, would put a very useful leverage into the
hands of the Government, so that they might
I hold the power of protection for the home
interests in any case where foreign powers
either refused to respond to the liberal
declarations of this country or where those powers in-
flicted prohibitory duties in return to our generosity.
It might seem strange in him who had always from
that (the Opposition) side of the House
voted against the Government—( Hear, hear)—but
on this measure, he felt it his duty to vote with them.
They had virtually, and de facto, adopted the princi-
ple of free trade. He thought that they ought to carry
it out in every department of the State —(Cries
of " Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.)
He would not detain the Committee longer, but he
trusted when he revived his amendment on the bringing
up of the report, he should have the support of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth and his
friends.
Mr. HERRIES said, this clause, taken in conjunction
with the first, was, in fact, the Bill, and while he still re-
tained his objection to the whole of this measure,
he thought nothing could show more the ❑ecessity for
an amendment like that proposed by the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down than the number of propo-
sals which had been made on this very subject of reci-
procity.—(Hear, hear.) First, there was the Hon.
Member for Kilmarnock, who made an effort
to introduce a clause to that effect, and then
his Right Honourable Friend the Member for
the University of Oxford had suggested, though
he had not proposed a reciprocity clause.
His Right Hon. Friend (the President of the Board of
Trade) had abstained from proposing that which, comiug
from him, 'would have been entitled to every considera-
tion, simply because he was in doubt as to the course
which might be adopted by those with whom he (Mr.
Herries) had the honour of being connected.
But if his. Right Hon. Friend supposed that they would
adopt the least stratagem for the sake of obtaining some
momentary advantage, or for placing the Government
in a dilemma upon the third reading of the Bill, he
could assure him that Le was greatly and grievously mis-
taken.—(Hear.) He had never lent himself to any plan,
nor, indeed, had any one of the party with whom
he was connected, for the purpose of obstructing or im-
peding the legitimate progress of the Bill. With respect
to the particular clause before the House, he was bound
to say that he did not attach much importance to it,
because it could do no good, but might possibly
do a great deal of mischief.—(Hear.) Upon
looking at it they could not but ask themselves
what its effect would be with respect to the United
States. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchere) had
withdrawn, when the Navigation Bill was last under dis-
cussion, that part of the Bill which was the least ob-
jectionable.—(Hear, hear.) If they could have succeeded
in getting some return from the United States for that
portion of our coasting trade which it was proposed
to give to them, he must confess that the arrangement
introduced into the Bill, was an advantageous one.
The restrictions of America were manifold; yet, not-
withstanding all the advantages we gave her, we got
littls in return, whereas they ought to get from foreign
countries, and from America in particular, something
like an equivalent. In support of this view the Hon.
Gentleman referred to a dispatch of Mr. Clay, who
wrote in favour of the argument of equivalents.
Mr. MACG-REGOR said it would be well to leave out the
clause altogether; but he could not support that view,
as he believed its insertion in the Bill absolutely neces-
sary. If there was one argument more than another in
favour of placing the parts of any two countries in the
same position, the case of the United States was an apt
illustration, for when he looked back to the capture of
Quebec, 90 years ago, he found that there was not a
single man of British parentage resident, or who spoke
the English language, in the whole district, nor one who
possessed au acre of land west of the Allegany mountains.
to the shores of the Pacific. Later the number of in-
habitants who spoke the British language in the loca-
lity amounted to 2,000,000; now those who spoke our
language, adopted our habits, and our forms of adminis-
tration, amounted to no less a number tha❑ 20,000,000.
Washington and Franklin proposed to the then
Government of this country that the trade of the
two countries should be placed in the same posi-
tion in regard to their coasting trade. Pitt adopted
their view, arid introduced, a Bill for that purpose, but
before it could be carried out the existing Administration
resigned. Ever since 1816 the whole mode of inter•

course had been altered ; and he maintained that the best
guarantee for the peace of England,America,and the whole
world would be to abolish the navigation-laws altogether
with regard to the United States of America. It had
been stated that we were giving every thing to the Ameri-
cans, and they were giving very little to us. He denied that
altogether. lie looked to that indomitable spirit of per-
severance which existed in the United States, and which
would make navigation with America of much
greater importance than with any other country in
the world. He believed the spirit of the American
Government would be to meet us if we ex-
tended to them freedom of trade and of
navigation. With regard to Canada and the United
States, he believed if we maintained the
restrictions which now existed between the Canadians
and the people of the United States, that would cause
the greatest possible discontent in that part of the
world. He would vote most heartily in support of the
clause.
Mr. ROBINSON denounced the system of giving
everything to foreign countries, without demanding any-
thing from them in return, as one-sided legislation,
likely to lead to great mischief. He should move as an
amendment the omission of the words " if she should
think fit," in line 32 of the clause.
Mr. LABOUC HERE did not at all object to the Hon.
Gentleman's amendment, the words "if she should think
fit" having been only introduced as respectful to her
Majesty.
Mr. GLADSTONE did not mean to say he was in
favour of the amendment; but he believed that for Par-
liament to say that it should be lawful for her Majesty to
do so and so, in that case, would have no binding force.
In that case he thought the amendment would be nugatory
for the purpose for which it was introduced. With
respect to the objection of the Hon. Member for Stamford
to his (Mr. Gladstone's) proposal, all that he (Mr.
Gladstone) said was, that his plan was the plan for the
purpose of promoting a settlement of the question, but
that it was impossible to be made available unless it was
supported by her Majesty's Ministers and a majority
01 the House. His only object was to render the dis-
cussion of that clause more clear. He intended nothing
else; and he thought that what he had meant he had
made perfectly clear.
Mr. ROBINSON had the greatest respect for the
judgment of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone)►
but on this question he was no professional authority.
Now he himself was engaged in the profession, and
therefore thought himself entitled to some consideration.
At any rate before deciding he should like to have the
opinion of the Attorney-General upon it. Should that
not be in accordance with what had just been stated be
should divide the House.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the clause
contained an insertion in the 31st line of the words, " if
the Queen shall think fit," which gave her officers a
discretionary power to act in certain matters, and which
discretion would certainly be much more useful than any
restricted authority.
Sir F. THESIGER said that it was his decided opi*
nion that in any case there was a discretionary power
clearly invested by the Act in the authorities of the
Crown, and if that was not sufficient, why it could yerY
easily be extended.—(A laugh.)
Mr. J. STE WART trusted that his Hon. Friend
would not press this motion to a division,
for
perfectly immaterial how the power
was
conferred.
31st line in
the words " if the Queen shall think fit"
portion in e
same power
r it was
any way limited the power or increased it,io tht
was clearly conferred by another
-rt m of the clause
therefore, trusted
where the same words occurred. He,
motion.
thatT hhis a
amendment was
Friend would
withdrawn, and clauses 20
to, an the proposition of
her Majesty in Council to make
and 21 having been agreed
clause 22, which enables
with foreign countries for thepur-
pose_nwotot press his
certain arrangements
reciprocal advantages to the shipping of
other of giving re othueldn
oihur states in our
harbours and to our shipping in the
harbours of
other countries, so far as port and light dues
were concerned,
Mr. LAI3OITCHLRE said, in reply to Mr. Wawn,
that this clause was necessary, for a considerable diffi•
culty had been experienci d in inducing other countries
to enter into reciprocal treaties. With regard to Spai",
for instance, there was every disposition to enter into
amicable arrangements so far as the practicable business
was concerned, but a great indisposition to a political
arrangement.

After a further remark from Mr. WAwx,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that dock dues and light
dues wire on a very different footing.
Mr. WAWN said the Hull Dock Company had re-
coined very large sums of money as compensation for
dock dues, which they had surrendered under reciprocity
treaties, and he should therefore propose that the w.ord3
dock dues" be added to the thirty•third line of the
clause.

Ihe ATTORNEY-GENERAL said if the Honour-
able Gentleman would read the clause a little further on,
he would find the words, " and other dues," which would
embrace the dues the Hon. Gentleman had mentioned.
Mr. WA WN said in that case there ought to bo 11°
objection to adopting his proposal.
Mr. HENLEY said, now that they proposed to d--al
with private rights so extensively, end to compensate
dock companies for the loss of their dues out of the C-'11;
solulattA Fund, some general Act ought to be introduced
on the subject.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the present Bill
followed reads 9i the 4614 cis:l9l figt14941414 $l3