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istency, and with departing from his principle ?--and
was not the defenre of the Noble Duke, that he had

not changed his opinions, but that he could no longer
art. on them consistently with the opinions of the country?
-- (Hear, hear.) Witi, cespect to the present measure, I
leave not to excuse myself to your Lordships for any change
of folmer opinions, or for any departure from principles
formerly professed. But, had it been otherwise, I should
have felt myself borne out by the example of the Noble
Dul,:e, in yielding to the unequivocally declared opinions
of the people, -and giving them that full, free, and fair re-
presentation to which they are entitled by those principles
of that Constitution which have renderer.' it the admira-

don of the world, and the envy of surrounding nations.
I do not, therefore, my Lords, address you in the lan-
guage of intimidation, when I entreat you to attend to the
opinions of the people. But as Noble Lords may dispute
that those petitions express the opinions of the people, I
will ask, can they dispute that those opinions were ix--
pressed in the results of the dissolution of the last Parlia-
ment ? When Sir Robert Pecl introduced into the other
House of Parliament the Bill for the emancipation of the
Roma❑ Catholics, lie stated that such changes had taken
place in the opinions of the people, that it would he im-
possible for the Government to persevere in opposition to
those opinions. Now, my Lords, how did the Right
Hon. Gentleman make out his proofs that the people had
so changed their opinions? He stated that the best cri-
terion, the most practical and constitutional way to ascer-
tain the opinions of the people, was to take a considerable
number of the principal counties and towns, and to observe
in what way the votes of their representatives had varied
upon a particular question. On that principle the Right
lion. Gentleman compared the voles of the representatives
of eighteen counties, which he thought the most impor-
tant, and finding that of those representatives nineteen
voted for, and only seventeen against the etnancipa-
thin of the Caholies, when the question had been last
before the House, be considered that bare majority of two,
a sufficient proof that the opinion of the people of England
was favourable to that measure. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's assertion of the change in public opinion was still
more borne out by the votes upon the Relief Bill, which
lie introduced ; for, of the representatives of those 18
counties, 27 voted for, and only nine against the Bill. But
how do we stand now ? Every Member for those 18
counties has voted for this Bill. Instead of a majority of
twenty-seven to nine, we have absolute unanimity. If
hat he not a proof of public opinion, I know not what is.
—(Hear.) On examining the division upon the second
reading of this Bill in the other House, your Lordships
will find that of 82 county Members, 76 . voted for, and
but six against the Bill ; being a proportion of more than
Thirteen to one in favour of Reform. Again, my Lords,
the representatives of towns, which are not inserted in
either of the Schedules A and B of this Bill, are 151, and
these only 46 voted against the Bill. But in the Sche.
Jules A and B things were entirely different.—(Hear,
hear.) Of the boroughs in schedule B, 26 Members voted
for, and 76 against the Bill ; and of those in schedule A,
78 voted for, and 22 against. Deducting, therefore, from
the whole minority of English Members against the second
reading those who represented the boroughs in the two
schedules A and B, who had a direct and personal interest
in opposing the measure, there would remain but 52
against it.--(Hear, hear, hear.) Nor does it stop there."
For, besides those boroughs, there ate many close cor-
porations, such as Bath and Bristol, in which, although
the population is numerous, the franchise is extremely
limited. Now, the representatives of all those places
had a direct interest in voting against the Bill.
Now, how does the question stand in respect to those be.
roughs? Of the forty-six Members for boroughs, not in
the schedules A and 11, who voted against the Bill, twenty.
four were appointed by a very small number of
corporations. Deducting those twenty-four, there-
fore, and adding to the remaining twenty-two six
county Members, you will find that you have only
twenty-eight persons having any pretence to be eonsidereo
the representatives of the opinions of the people of Eng-
land opposed to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) With such a
proof of public opinion being favourable to the measure,
I shall only put it to your Lords—is it expedient to rejec.
it I—(Hear, hear.) Will you reject it in opposition to so
strong and general an expression of public opinion, accord-
ing, as I think, with the principles of the Constitution and
with the best interests of the country ? But, my Lords.
we are told that we must not make concessions, because, if
we once begin to concede, there will be no end to the de-
mands. This is an old doctrine, which has led to much

mischief in our own times. When was it that concessions
overturned a Government? Was it concession that lost
the Netherlands to Philip? Was it concession that ,
brought Charles I. to the scaffold? No, it was his un-
faithful attempt to resume that which he bad already con-
ceded. Was it concession that compelled the second son
of that unfortunate Monarch to abdicate the throne to
which the people had restored his family? Was it not
rather his obstinate disregard of their wishes, and his
withhold of all concession ? Was it by concession th it
we lost America?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Was it con-
cession that overturned the old Monarchy of France?
I know that it has been said so. But I am fully
persuaded, that if the old nobility of France had
done that which I now presume to counsel
your Lordships to do—( Hear, hear, hear)—if they
(tail consulted the wishes of the people, and had aide;
their King in granting to the people the concessions which
the exigency of the times demanded, the family of that
Monarch would mver have been driven from the throne
of France. Was it concession that more recently drove
Charles the Tenth from the same throne? Was it not
rather the fact, that if he had adhered to the Charter to
' which he was bound, the people would have been content
with the rights which it gave them? I know, my Lords,
that some persons make a different application of those
facts of history, and say—" See, what are the effects of
concession ; when you offered to the Americans all that
they required, they would not accept it." But their re-
fusal is easily explained. The concession was not made in
time. You persevered in resisting the reasonable demands
of your fellow-subjects, until at length you drove those
colonies into the arms of France. No man can lament
more than I do the present unsettled state of Ireland ; not-
withstanding the concession to the Roman Catholics of
those rights of which they had been deprived so long, and
the withholding of which I have always considered as
impolitic as it was unjust. For the concession they
were indebted to the Noble Duke opposite; and I repeat
that no man can :egret more than I do that the con-
cession was not followed by peace and tranquillity
as had been expected. But what is the inference
which ought to be drawn from that fact ? It is not that
the concession of just c%).itas is had policy. It is not
that it is bad policy to be kind, indulgent, and just to
your fellow-subjects ; but that it is most impolitic to de-
lay concession.— (lle.tr, hear.) The true inference is,
that if Catholic emancipation had been granted twenty
or twenty-five years before, when all the wisest and most
experienced statesmen of the kingdom recommended it
Ireland would be at this moment one of the most pros-
perous parts of the empire. By resisting the reasonabh.
claims of the people you rendered their demands more
violent. You taught them to know their own power,
and when tl:ey did know it, perhaps they were not will-
ing to lay it down when the occasion for exercising it had
passed away ; and when at length you did yield to their
claims, you accompanied the concession by a most impo-
litic measure, of which, at the time, I greatly disap-
proved, and by which the conciliating effects of your con-
cession were greatly diminished. I say, therefore, my
Lords, concede in time—concede graciously, and not
grudgingly—make Reform an act of justice, not an ex
forted capitulation.—(Cheers.) Concede in time: look
into the state of the representation, and see whether it is
not justly liable to the objections urged against it ; adopt
this measure at once decisive and eirectual—remove the
cause of complaint, and place the fabric of the Constitution
'upon a rock. Again I disclaim the use of any lan-
guage of menace ; but let us remember that the Bill
comes to us recommended from the King, and that it has
Oren sent tip to us by an overwhelming majority of all
who can be called the veal representatives of the people in
the other House of Parliament recollect that it has been
urged forward by innumerable petitions, respectfully
worded, and from which have disappeated all those topics
which formerly gave offence.—(Much cheering.) To all
those claims for extravagant change, I know no man more
opposed than I am ; but I beg your Lordships to consider
whether the recommendation of the Crown.—(Cries of
order from the Opposition bencheo.) I refer to the re-
' commendation in the King's speech.—(Cheers from the
Ministerial side.) I cannot imagine that I am not at
ifierty to allude to that, for every body must he aware
that the King did recommend Reform to the consideration
of Parliament. Is it to be believed, that, through the in-
tervention of reapensible Ministers, that advice did not
come from the will of the is ?—(Cheers and counter
cheers.) But if the introduction of that point give
the slightest offence, I am willing to abandon it.—
(Cheers.) f as, then, my Lords, with an overwhelm-
ing, an irresistible majority of the real representatives
of the people—with that people roused and agitated
from one end of the country to the other, and claim•
ingby respectful but decisive petitions the restitution of
their ancient rights, will you, the House of Lords, put
yourselves in opposition to the national opinion, by reject-
ing this Bill, and thus disappoint expectations sojrea-
sonahly anti ardently entertained, and wishes so strongly
and unanimonaly repressed? if this Ramat, do take an

attitule of defiance to the voice of the whole country—a
situation of things I would fain believe impossible—if it
reject this Bili even by a great majority of its Members, or
with anything approaching unanimity, still it would not
long. be able to oppose successfully the increasing tide of
popular sentiment. The consequences may be dreadful
to contemplate ; if you cannot stem the tide, and yet re-
sist it, is there no danger that you may be even swept
away by its violence?—(Much cheering.) But let me
add, that the peril will be much greater, should this Bill
be thrown out by a comparatively small number of your
Lordships. What, then, may be your situation ? I say
again, do not flatter yourselves that by introducing a less
efficient measure you will allay the storm you will have
raised, that you will recover the ground you will hare lost,
or overcome the alienation you will have produced.—(Hear,
hear.) I certainly deprecate anything like a popular
cry ; as a citizen of a free state, who fuels that
liberty is essentially connected with order, I would
resist the slightest approach to violence; as a Mem-
ber of the Government, it is my duty to maintain
I tranquillity; but as a citizen, as a legislator, as a Member
of the Government, as a man and as a statesman, I am
bound to look at the consequences that may ensue from
rejecting this Bill ; and although I do not state, as the
Noble Duke asserted of his measure, that the rejection of
it would occasion a civil war—for I trust it will produce
no such effect—yet I do say that such consequences are
likely to result as make me tremble for the condition of my
country, and for the security of this House.—(Cheers from
the Opposition Benches.) I especially beg the spiritual
portion of your Lordships to pause and to reflect ....(11,„
Earl Grey turned and addressed himself to the Bench of
Biahops.) The Prelates of the empire have not a more
firm or decided friend than I am. I acknowledge their
purity, anti I maintain the soundness of the discipline of
the Church of England, and I know the general estima-
tion in which those at the head of our religious esta-
blishment are held in the country; but let me entreat
them to consider, if this Bill should be unfortunately
thrown out by any majority, or by a narrow majo-
rity, and that the question should he decided, and the
scale turned by their votes, what will be their painful
situation?—(Cheers.) Let me remind them that they
have already shown that they can read the signs of the
times, and that measures of concession have been brought
forward in obedience to those signs, as all such measures
should he introduced by the leading members of their body.
They feel that the eyes of the nation are upon them, and
they ought to feel it.—(Hear, hear.) They feel, too,
that it is necessary" to put their house in order," in order
to meet the growing expectations out of doors.—(Much
cheering.) They must remember that many important
questions are now in agitation, to which a favourable or
unfavourable direction may be given, as their votes may
either ensure success to, or may defeat a great political
measure upon which the national feeling has been so gene-
rally and unequivocally expressed.—(Cheers.) I will not
press this point farther ; but I entreat the most serious
attention to it. With respect to myself, and the Admi-
nistration of which I form a part, the fate of this Bill is a
matter of comparative indifference. 1 have said, and I sin
not a man to recall what I have said, that by this measure
I must stand or fall.—(Continued cheers, especially from
the Opposition side.) The question of my continuance
in office, even for an hour, must depend upon pry
seeing a reasonable prospect of being able to carry into
effect this measure, to which I am pledged, as I think,
by every tie of private honour, and by every obliga-
tion of public duty, both to my Sovereign and to the
people.—(Hear.) I wish your Lordships distinctly to
understand (as I have already said, and the sentiment was
received with some apparent eagerness), that it is my deli-
berate conviction, that the dangers to be incurred by the
rejection of this Bill cannot be obviated by any measure of
less force and efficiency. If such a plan be proposed, it
is not by me that it will be supported : I never will con-
:eta to hold out to the people a delusive measure of Reform
—I am convinced that they have a right to expect Con-
stitutional Reform to the full extent of the Bill upon the
table, and their earnest wishes in its favour have been
zealously expressed. I have set before your Lordships ex-
amples which should teach you how to avoid perils, which
in my view must inevitably follow rejection. I advocate
this Bill as a measure of peace and conciliation; and in the
words of the prayer we daily offer, I hope that Providence
,vill " Prosper all your consultations to the advancement
of his glory—to the good of the Church, and to the safety,
honour, and welfare of the Empire."—(Much cheering.)
I am aware that I have already too long detained your
Lordships, but I cannot conclude without expressing a
hope—would I could say a sanguine expectation—that this
measure may receive your sanction : I entreat your Lord-
-thips to take into view the situation of the country, and
I trust that you will then see the necessity for confirming
by your vote a measure calculated not only to produce
immeasurable good, but to prevent incalculable evil.—
(General and reiterated cheers.)

The question was then put from the Woolsack, that the
Bill be read a second time.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE spoke as follows—Your Lord-
ships will readily believe that on this occasion I feel sen-
sible in my own person of the difficult situation in which
I am placed, as well as of embarrassment of the position
ynur Lordships occupy. If I thought that we were in
difficulties More I heard the speech of the Noble E trl, I
tin doubly impressed with their existence after it. He
has told us that by this Bill his Government is to stand or
fall ; he has told us, too, that if we do not accept this
Rill now, we roust hereafter take something worse.—
Cheers.) I am called upon to judge how far this Bill
can be adopted with safety to the Constitution, and if the
House agree with me, I think we are bound to reject this
Bill. It is very well to say that this of all measures is
the one we must consent to, and it is very well to accom-
pany that statement with another, toot we must not mu-
tilate it—we must not alter it—and the whole tone of the
Noble Earl's speech was to this effect :—" I have produced
this Bill—the only measure to save the country under its
present difficulties—accept it as it is, or take the conse-
quences of breaking up the present Government."—
, (Cheers.) " Nothing less will do (said the Noble Earl),
and I advise you to take this or worse."
Earl GREY interposed, and observed that he had said
the country would not he satisfied with a less efficient plan
of Reform.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—It is singular that the whole
of the Noble Earl's speech consisted of abuse of the present
Constitution, but he di-1 not say one word in defence of
his proposed alteration of it.—(Hear, near.) But sup-
pose your Lordships could be brought to adapt this nevi
Constitution, 1 assert, as far as I am able to judge, that
the present form of Government could not he preserved--
that the three estates of King, Lords, and Commons, could
not co-exist, and that one branch of the Legislature must
he prepared to submit,—(Cheers.) Therefore the Noble
Earl was bound to show not only that great abuses and
corruption have crept into the elective system : not merely
that the state of the Scotch representation, which I and
others have given up, ought nut to be maintained, but
that the plan before us would remedy all defects, without
being liable to objections at least as insuperable. It is true
I have admitted, and now admit, that the Scotch repre-
sentation is in srch a state (not from corruption, for there
she Noble Earl is mistaken), that tine whole is in the hands
of a few, and that there is no such thing as popular elec-
tion. I think that this loudly calls for some degree of
Reform ; but we must take the whole of the representation
of the kingdom together. Scotch representation may have
many vices, but joined to the English representation, both
may form one House, and together form a Constitution
amply sufficient for the protection of our interests and the
safeguard of our liberties. Then as to nomination boroughs,
I hope the Noble Earl will do me the justice to re-
member what I said on a former occasion. I have
not defended the nomination boroughs because they
are pure and independent ; but the use of them is this—
that they act in the House of Commons as a wholesome
check, and prevent popular violence by an over balance of
popular representation.—(Cheers.) I cannot deny that
in nomination there is something difficult to be defended,
but the question to be asked of the people is this
there nut sonic good belonging, to the system, and some
advantage in the working of it, which it would be disad-
vantageous to abolish from the Constitution? At the
same time I will not go so far as to say that it is not ob-
jectionable, and that other modes might not be found of
checking the popular influence. I contend, that by this
Bill you are going to bring into the House of Commons a
great accession of popular power—that by so doing, and
by removing the check of nomination boroughs, you will
so completely change the state of the representation that
all power will be absorbed by, and will centre in the
Commons, while this House will become a mere cypher,
and even the prerogatives of the Crown will be endangered.
—(Much cheering from the Opposition Benches.) But is
that my opinion only? Will your Lordships only observe
what is passing round you, and listen to the harangues of
those who are clamouring for Reform? They plainly tell
you that this plan is yielded to their wants and wishes—hut
that it is not by any means all they want or wish. This
Reform once obtained—the check once removed—they vviii
go further, until they find athast that this branch of the Le-
gislature is not at all necessary. They tell you this over and
over again, and will your Lordships be deaf to the warning
and blind to the design? The words of Cromwell,
after the battle of Dunbar—" The Lord bath delivered
them into our hands" have already been quoted against the
friends of the Constitution—the enemies of this Reform ;
and we know that in this country there exists a party of

violent men, who are earnestly wishing for the establish-
ment of a Republican Government. When this Bill shalt
have passed, and when we shall have relinquished all
power, suck men may inderd exclaim, " The Lord bath
delivered them into our hands."—(Muth cheering.) I
know it has been said, that because we have some connec-
tion with close boroughs that we are defending our in-
terests, and exposing ourselves to odium. For myself, I
may say, that I have comparatively little connection of the
kind ; but I protest that in that connection there is, and
has been, nothing unworthy—(Cheers)—nothing that I
may not openly avow. Your Lordships know me—my
life as a public man has been for many years before the
country, and I appeal to my character whether it is likely
that I should he girlty of any act of corruption ?—(Cheers. )
I believe that many of your Lordships are in precisely the
same situation ; but whatever be the nature or degree of
your interests, you would be as ready as my Noble Friend at
the table to lay them at the feet of your countrymen when
once it has been established, first, that they are injurious ;
and, secondly, that the substitute is safe.—(Hear.) I will
not follow the Noble Earl through all he has stated upon
this subject, it is not my business to defend the circumstances
in which particular boroughs may be placed ; but I will
take the liberty of endeavouring to show, that of all the
delusions ever practised, there never was a greater than to
attempt to show, by an appearance of liberality, that
something is given as an equivalent for the privileges of
which your Lordships would be thusdeprived.—(Cheers.)
In the first place, I will consider the alteration with re-
spect to the right of voting in boroughs. The Bill, in
order to attract the approbation of a large class of persons
in populous towns, professes to give the elective franchise
to householders of 101. a year. In my opinion this was
spreading the net far too widely, especially recollecting
that the 101. householders are only to he, in fact, occu-
piers of houses paying at the rate of 3s. 4d. or 35. 6d. a
week.--(Hear, hear.) But lam quite sure that the Noble
Earl and his Noble Friends in another place have become

frightened at the monster of their own manufacture.
Everybody knows the story about weekly payments of
3s. 4d. or 3s. 6d., and an attempt was made to get out
of the difficulty; but there were other parties looking
on—a powerful Peoss—and no sooner was the thing done
than it was denounced by the Press, and Ministers were
left to extricate themselves as well as they could from their
dilemma.—(Cheers.) Then, said the supporters of the
Bill, "We never meant it—it was an inadvertence."—
Good God ! my Lords, are we to be told that the Go-
vernment of this country, making so essential a change in
the Constitution, has been guilty of an inadvertence?—
(Cheers.) It was the duty of Ministers, before they
introduced such a Bill, to consider and weigh every line,
and every word of every line, and not to come to the
country, and declare that really they had been guilty
of an inadvertence.—(Hear, bear, hear, and a laugh.)
If not competent themselves, they should have employed
others who were competent, although they were respon-
sible. This is one of the several and great changes the
Bill has undergone since it was originally brought forward.
As it stands, the ten-pound franchise is so surrounded with
rents, periods of occupation, and other ambiguous diffi-
culties, that I will venture to say that one• tenth of the
persons entitled would not be able to establish their right

of voting. I know it may be said that this ought to be
no objection to us—that the more difficult it is to obtein
the franchise the better ; but I do not like to take it in
that way. If I thought it right to give the ten-pound
franchise, I would give it intelligibly at once. I would
take care that there should be no complaints afterwards

that it was surrounded with difficulties.—(Hear, hear,
from Earl GREY ; and Lord WfranaicurrE excited sem-
laughter by himself repeating the cheers.) If I thought
101. a proper franchise, I would state it in the plainest
and most indisputable words ; hut my assertion is, that
no man can enjoy it under this Bill who has not been re-
sident in a house for at least fifteen months, and, perhaps,
for from twenty to thirty month'. Besides, if by any acci-
dent during that time the landlord gives the tenant notice
to quit, the franchise is lost by removal. If such a fran-
chise were given fairly, I should say that it was exceed-
ingly low, and that it would amount very nearly to uni-
versal suffrage. I object, also, to the number of great towns
to which the right of returning Members is to be communi.
cated—and it shows that the principle of the measure is
not property but population. This principle once esta-
blished, it can never be destroyed, and it must lead to
future and endless changes. I allow that these great
towns possess much wealth—that large capitals are em-
ployed in manufactures—that important interests are thus
created, and that they have some claim to representation.
But are we on this account to establish a principle, that
whenever the population of a place amounts to a certain
number (say 20,000), it shall be entitled to send a Mem-
ber to Parliament? I deny any such right. In the county
of Lancaster, and in the West Riding of Yorkshire, with
which I am particularly acquainted, certain trades and
manufactures are carried on, which employ large capitals ;
but are we, therefore, of necessity, to say that every large
town there shall have its representative? Then as to the
delusion of the landed interest; admitting that the Noble
Lord opposite, acting on a fair principle, really thought
that something must be given as a counterpoise for the
overbearing influence of the manufacturing interests ; this
counterpoise was to be given by additional county Mem-
bers—to some counties two, and to others one. But if
Ministers had really wished to give an equivalent to the
landed interest, instead of giving additional Members to
populous manufacturing counties, like Yorkshire, for in-
stance, they should have selected agricultural counties.—
(Hear, heir.) Besides, no man can tell what the effect
of giving these Members to counties may be. The Bill
declared that the counties should be divided by Commis-
sioners, and those gentlemen had already begun their
labours, although it was at least a question whether the
measure would be read a second time.—(Cheering.) These
Coramissii;ners are to divide the counties according to their
discretion ; and in Yorkshire I know that a line may be
so drawn as to give four Members to the manufacturing
interest. The same remark will apply to Warwiekshire,
in which Birmingham is situated, and with which I do not
profess to be so well acquainted. Therefore I say, before
you call upon the landed interest to approve the plan, you
should have afforded information to enable them to judge
whether the measures to give the landed interest weight would
be effectual. There is one other point about these changes
to which I wish to call your Lordships' attention, anal that
is with respect to the voters within these towns. In the
first place, the intention of this Bill is, that persons who
vote for towns should not, in respect of the same freeholds,
vote for the counties in which those towns are situated.
Th it, at first sight, appears designed to balance in favour
of the counties the advantiges given by the other parts of
the Bill to the manufacturing interest in the creation of
the constituency of 101. freeholders. It is perfectly true
that this restriction will to a certain degree diminish the
number of votes that the inhabitants of towns will be able
to throw into county elections ; but at the same time I am
satisfied, that when the provisions of this Bill come to be
known, the ease with which these restrictions can be evad. d
will be discovered, and they will afford no protection
whatever to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.)
But it may be said, that there are other matters which
will afford them. protection. I know not what they are ;
for you do not exclude persons residing in towns from
having freeholds out of the limits of those towns, and within
the limits of the divisions of the counties, and from vot-
ing in respect to those freeholds for the county in which
they are situate. What I have said is fully made out by
whit we hear at this very moment. In one of the divi.
sions of the county of York a canvass has already taken
place, in expectation of the changes to be effected by this
Bill; and there is one remarkable thing in that canvass,
remarkable, too, as fully making out what I have stated
as my opinion, and that is, that the great towns will, un-
der this Bill, so far influence the elections for counties, or
divisions of counties, as to deprive the landed interest of
the power they ought to possess in those elections. The
circumstance to which I allude is, that one of the great
towns of the West Riding of Yorkshire, the great town
of Leeds, his already named two candidates for that Rid-
ing—a Noble Lord who now sits in the other House as a
Member for the county, and an Hon. Gentleman of ex-
tensive influence there; and in that very town in which you
say this Bill will destroy the influence of the manufactur-
ing interest, except so far as the town is concerned, have
the townspeople first begun a canvass for the county re-
presentation—ited, as they say, begun it with every cer-
tainty of success. —(Hear, hear.) These persons, my
Lords, know well the power and influence of the freehol-
ders of their town—they know that that influence will be
sufficient to decide the contest for the county—and they
know that the provisions of this Bill are not such as to
prevent them from obtaining the object of their canvass,
or deprive them of enjoying the means of voting at that
election. I say again, my Lords, that the provisions of
this Bill are attacks upon the influence of the landed inte-
rest, and that they will acquire but little addition to their
power in respect of these restrictions, but that in the
manufacturing counties the landed interest will be com-
pletely overpowered. Then come the other provisions with
respect to the increase of the number of electors in coun-
ties, the provisions relating to the cliyholders, the lease-
holders for twenty years, and the tenants at will. I ad-
mit to the Noble Earl that the imposition of this last
clause—the giving the elective franchise to tenants at will
.--did not come from the Noble Earl himself, as part of his
measure : I admit that it was imposed on the Noble Lord
by a Noble Lord in the other House; and I say only of
that fact, that it makes the thing far worse..—( Hear, hear.)

The reason airy I say en is that prima facie, that clause
appears to give additional influence and weight to the
great landed proprietors ; but the working of it will he
very different; the working- of it will he, that if a landed
proprietor exerts his influence with his tenantry lie will
excite the strongest animadversions upon his conduct, such
as had been made upon others who had ventured to exer-
cise what they thought to be their rights with respect to
their tenants.—( Hear, hear.) I gay, my Lords, that
together with the provisions relating to
householders, and those which affect to he
tthheesteenp-ropvoiusniodns
restrictions on the too great influence of the manufacturing
interests, and those which place curtain tenants at the
mercy of their landlords, show mat clearly that you
flatter yourselves in v if you believe that this Bill will
be satisfactory, or will produce the benefits the Noble Earl
seems to anticipate.—( Hear, hear.) There are other mat-
ters in this Bill that will produce consequences which do
not seem to be anticipated. If you pass this Bill. you will
mal:e every election in populous towns throughout the em-
pire of such a character, that I say the only way in which
a quiet man—a man in every other way fitted to be the
representative of the people, but unused to public speaking,
and shunning the crowd and confusion of a contested elec-
tion, can hope to be proposed with any possibility of suc-
cess, will he by resorting to the vote by ballot. But if
you resort to that mode of voting at elections, 1 say that
that, together with the other circumstances to which I
have alluded, will be sufficient altogether to overthrow
and put an end to the system and the Constitution of this
country. Then conies another ground, which is entirely
new. This measure is now put forth by the Government,
and the assertion has been repeated this night, that the
measure will be a final settlement of the question. I say
it cannot—(Hear, hear)—l say it is impossible.—(Hear,
hear.) I have already told you that we ought to he
warned by the openly-expressed sentiments daily put forth
on this subject—put forth by those who are the most cla-
morous for this measure—by those who are the principal
defenders of the Bill, and who have distinctly told us that
it is not so. We cannot disbelieve them when we hear
their opinions and their wishes ; and when we turn to
the Bill and observe its complicated provisions about re-
gistration anti voting, and a variety of other matters, that
the lest consideration will teach us must give way,—
( Hear.) But that is not all. In the other House of
Parliament, in the course of the debates upon this matter,
that point was given up, and the Noble Lord who then in-
troduced the Bill admitted fairly at once that it was not
final. The question, therefore, my Lords, for us to con-
sider is, whether the people will be satisfied with this
measure? for if not, where is the use of passing it,
since they will immediately afterwards ask U 9 to- go
farther—to open wider the door to popular influence
—asserting that we have admitted their right to have,
and that they are determined to have, what has been
called a full, fair, and free representati,m of the
people in the way in which they understand that
question.—( Hear, hear.) These are the objects of the
people in demanding the passing of this measure. In what
way, too, do they demand it ? We have been told by the
Noble E trl opposite, and we have been told by the peti-
tions. that we must not mutilate this Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble E irl has told us, at least, that we must not
make any alterations in the Bill in the second reading.
Why not ? Have I a chance of making an alteration in
it afterwards ? The Noble Earl nods, as if I had ; he
will allow me to say that the country and the Parliament—
at least if his assent expressed that of the Parliament—have
very different notions on this subject. The same sort of
hope was held out to those who opposed the Bill in the
other House; and I believe that many gentlemen voted
there for the second reading in the belief that they should
have the opportunity of altering the Bill in Committee,
but when it got into the Committee any alteration was
strenuously opposed. Every body knows that in a Bill
brought in by the Government, with a strong party back-
ing them, it is a mighty difficult thing to make any altera-
tion, at least to make any material alterations. I believe
that without these alterations the Bill would be a most
dangerous measure ; but then how am I to make these
alterations ? how can I he secure that I shall be allowed to
make them—a great portion of the people who support the
Bill asserting that such alterations are not to be permitted?
The Noble Earl opposite tells us to look at the petitions of
the people. lam always inclined to treat with the greatest
spect the petitions of the people. I have long been
connected with the people, and I have done what the Noble
Earl recommends—l have looked at the petitions of the
, people ; and my view of these petitions is, that the object
of the people is not to have this Bill, but to have Reform
in Parliament.—(hear.) I repeat that the people have
told us in very intelligible language what they mean,
when they say they want Parliamentary Reform ; but I
deny that they have shown by their petitions that strong
feeling which is supposed to prevail in favour of this Bill.

If I doubted that before there are some circumstances at-
tending these petitions that would convince me. Meeting
after meeting has been held upon this subject, both before
and since the introduction of this Bill ; I ask your Lord-
ships whether the meetings that have been held since the
introduction of the Bill have had the same character as
those held before? I have taken the pains to inquire into
the subject, and I can boldly answer in the negative.
There are some parts of the public press that have trum-
peted them forth as meetings of great bodies of people ; but
stone of those so triumphantly proclaimed, have, I will
undertake to say, been such utter failures, that men have
been ashamed to have their names connected with them.—
(Hear, hear.) My Lords, we nix with the people, and
we know the people, and we know their opinions and
feelings. Our rank and our privilNes, thank God,
have not removed us from the people. We mix with
them ; our character here does not prevent us from mix-
ing with them out of doors : and I say, my Lords, that it is
impossible for any man of us to walk the streets, and rot to
see that this Bill is deprecated by the people.—(Hear.) I
would ask the Nair Earl to walk with me through any
street of this town—down Bond-street, for example—CA

.
laugh)—or down St. James's-street—(A laugh)—and to
inquire of the people there,—l do not mean of the pas-
sengers he may accidentally meet, but to go into the shops
and ask the respectable tradespeople what is their opinion
of this-13ill ; and I will venture to say he will not find
more than a very few persons indeed who will not say that
they are afraid of this Bill—that they think Parliament
requires some Reform, but that they are afraid of this
measure of Reform.—(Hear, hear.) Where petitions are
signed by the people in favour of any measure, I am fir
from undervaluing their importance ; but the signatures
attached to the petitions must not he taken as evidence of
the consent of the people of England to, this measure;
but, in nine times out of ten the persons who signed these
petitions are those who have followed the question for party
views for years past. In the county of York, for instance,
I am acquainted with a great number of very respectable
people who have signed these petitions; but that makes
no difference in my opinion on the subject, fur I know
them to be the same men with whom I have been fighting
all my life upon this question—whom I have encoui.tered
upon it in public and in private.—( Hear, hear.) It is not
always agreeable to be engaved in these encounters ; but
I have been so engaged, 1 know, and re.pect many
of the individuals who have opposed me ; but know-
ing them as my constant opponents, I do not see in the
circumstance of their signatures any great feeling in favour
of the measure. When I say this, I admit we must take
care that, in talking of the petitions of the people, we are
not deceived with respect to them ; but that c tution ap-
plies equally to both parties. But, says the Noble Earl,
let us leave the consideration of these petitions and look
to other circumstances ; and then what does he say to the
result of the dissolution of last Parliament ? I ant ready,
my Lords, in answer to that question to confess—indeed,
no man in his senses can deny it—thitt on that occasion
the supporters of Reform were most triumphant, that the
Reform candidates were almost everywhere successful in
populous places, and that in such places Anti-Reform
candidates could hardly for a moment stand a contest.—
(Hear, hear.) But even in that great event we have not
a perfectly fair specimen of popular favour towards the
present Bill. I will not again allude to the circumstances
attending the act of that dissolution—(Hear, hear)—but
I must say, that the circumstances occurring in the elec-
tions that followed that dissolution were such, that, so far
from looking upon them as a fair and unbiassed judgment
of the people, I believe that matters were so confounded,
his Majesty's name—(Hear, hear)—was so much and so
improperly used on that occasion, that I am convinced the
struggle was believed to he between the boroughmongers
(of whom I am accused of being one) and the King ;
and that consequently many loyal people in the
country, with their opinions thus acted upon, gave
their votes in support of a imasure they would other-
wise have received with less cordiality.—(Hear, hear.)
I now proceed to show the reasons for the opinion I enter-
tain, that when once the representatives are selected in
the manner proposed by this Bill, the effect will be, in the
first place, to diminish, or rather cramp, the prerogatives
of the Crown, and in the next place to create in the House
of Commons a body of such force, and so irresistible, as to
make the decisions of this House perfectly useless.—
(Hear, hear.) In the first place, this Bill will cramp the
exercise of the prerogative of the Crown. The first pre-
rogative of the Crown is the choice of its Ministers.
Now, when 111:nisters are chosen by the King, they must
sit in Parliament ; I think I need not argue the necessity
of their doing so. If the Minister thus chosen by the
King is not rich ; if he is not rich enough to be able to
stand an expensive contest-01u, with all the machinery of

a 0;14
tills Rill, Leavy exrnce will still continue to "e leo to
on the candidate)—l say, if he is not in a si° ilo be
bear this expense, or- if he happens to be unrro age
will have no means of going, as is now usual, t ea
boroughs. What will be the consequence? 1 baveatr
all the Ministers, since I began a politicaloeneafta,rer,ee;lr;t:itarit:iio9;o„otitst;
course to these boroughs ; but now they can d° 00e,j V
thing, unless some of these boroughs are preserr. aill
btlßvheio,aiyettanhlpatithpi rmpoosset.
of Thethe resultKiog Ring's Ministers
Ntliiiins measure,isters to, s
tt,hoe af elf,aer`ceast lo;
liei tbi
Peers;
eretio{gafianpitdiev
eoifnocitlthinnabtme
()mini
msariiitnseeder.n,
titrlheleyfoderextilpelenri:soat)
popular election, and when there is no P°sli.blated
sitting in that House but by popular election, the' op
will become the actual imaae of the will of the Perfat
and when it is so, it will he impossible that three ottho
hundred titled and privileged I.
•
mn,al(ftßtvieli..,it:iy,,lah—,cee,,,,y,arn.tn,wtai?tniwe,,nitiii
soisi(id,i,osin)ueihßf\e,,sispeoi.,ite;leiholei3O:efv,ytfLiihiheolttaeHeceuoi,ity.eoreoaawiemihivNni,hqseisamaoleovelidohibne(rs,taltineoaektdf_sclioilptclut.oeftinhii:tteimi
i,
etirport;eosise.tneco_nttiitpn:astniiitsaas :boils t 113' 1 n lie
(I, I ite IP
thew acri
ercnuonwisttaunidce, circumstances
allsurround
hli
liberty
eur
tsy? How tree Te, Pa of
of things—you will obtain in the House of Co°7o,
delegates of a party ; they will have no power aaaeil a
ce p lion
e''':slo'bt'ir,ile'l :
oithlgahvte t
o beforeblei,alal dlbemessciotontine dettotoouloisep, intnhut,a.retordfbutylla
fetodhriwithout
theßili re that tlo'
Commons -•
and you will not be able to resist their dellet:::;(lelliee3ft•
hear, hear.) lam not aware, my Lords, that I h'eadea
they objections to state upon this subject. 1
'have be'
voured to show that Ido not obiect to the 81l ore
cause it deals with nominations, but because it Earlgige toJ
than I think it ought. I admit when the Noble a I '
office he was called on for some measure of itea'ara,lo/i
offer no opinion with respect to the nomination I)°r".:ver'
•.,1..,
hut with respect to the rest of the Bill, I consider!ii
adopted
sal of the Constitution ; a proposal against whic self, 04 be
neither this House, nor even the Monarchy i,; s '`'
able to stand.—(Hear.) My Lords, we are naa,:geying
tuation to give way at this moment without eo"a one opt
the Constitution. Hitherto that Constitutioha`a gtaa
and England has flourished under it. It may e auteded'
it may have anomalies : if it has so, let them be re _ these
itlriseilootit.lysl,
insboottot odbpoepoensxoeetmt hlpeeltilfioleesdab—a remomnoofldvetihi
itechheCiagi
nnr
os
etoixtopt
dt
et too
ii°o:hcoici,airt:
be made. My Lords, we have the King, Lorci:;1701 'la-
timtahhoaemntysow,tshoatirnnistinketlemislaloavi:yi
en
nhg
tatplltpaeennngt.,u
awgleev,oeutaghrlaiett takettot;dis
not lose them.—( Hear.) We are told, my Lorrhatapnote aff
the Lords do not vote the Bill—to usebilayitliPhi:l::::::e:s4;
sio n—th e people can
mdproa:"Vaii)itelhsoaiusbtlieitohtientHhaeouse of Pri ! j
ttliliaensythsteemHott:saet otnif:Lwyords can do without the P°Peetil d°
, ~otNviw), iooat
en:;:yi
rtuoytuiiestrti
notilswi bgeel?orn itthiteralsil::tietii(e)snelf
vleetaathrhi
yleeegt(rnide,aaa yntt
betteralttno;
measure,lgilivataii
anomaly;
e;wysc
obtiobioduf:itreist.tttellihitt9:: s_Ytiet
tiv
aviv e
oneoi ;10 :pro
:rel,:i'f, 1 ,
pent the day on which they adopted such a I°-ticif t-f
has safely conducted this empire to the preserlit time'ereditril
Peerage. Have they ever been the enemies of the a 001:
the cf l'i
kind employed towards us. In a late ntonliev:tati '
Westminster Review, it is said :--" The (latiLeasist/
(Cheers
ofri.oßmevtohluotioonppiossihtiaosote,nainngsorteoraedraPirl "calit
by Cbe:0•0- e tha
the Ministerial Benches.) The Reformers bitacia to stir
duty at the elections ; they will be equallY Lrea 1):1 e",
port the cause by arms, if the Tories 80 L 1,,.( 00'
to turn over that page in a nation's history i 0,,,5t il;
hear.) I take leave to say, my Lords, that yo it iS S' ,
•isfy yourselves that tbis Measure is safe; tbati d th3a
for you to pass this law : but if you are not sat'so,,eoot'a''
this is the case you must do your duty to very00r 011 I.;
and reject it —(Hear, hear, hear.) It was dto
,°l;e
talk of this House as a Legislative .Asseinh/Yra'aaat 014,0
that it may pass measures of experiment. a' with -,e
very well with respect to a Turnpike Bill, but antis bees'
measure it is different. As the House of C°°- to og •
are sfet, odti;
thought fit to change their constituency,
to the change? As Peers we are hound to do r 1 theePto
to stand between the prerogative of the King °lalie aite
hand, and between popular excitement on the otetwo
give to each their proper weight ; and if rhedase a: 14
proposed to us is not to our satisfaction safe, ta r„,,le thal'a
assent to it.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If the Pe'ro 070
that they can do without us, let them say so o, i„ f')
name, and We are ready to walk out--(Nnt 11`,la, en ofrteif
the Ministerial benches)—but I say that tithe tbiaa
wishes no such thing ; it expects the Peers "'pope ,
duty—that duty is to consider the measure n°lloosciearli;
to vote on that measure according to their C aof ' )
calnotodvniiltflryftohlfo.yinil.d,sootyothtihas,,lclehrahtvaaeivnen.noeotx(tfleeonaort:ttlhhiaiestirth:xeliall°o:rP 10tie.03,0,,r•
{,
The Noble Earl has addressed the benchaiale• 'a i/
that it is true they are Ministers of Peace, bill tber it il
ad ills 00i
their task to bring peace among all men' beach'
aa of
retort:ll),r for whit purpose they sit on that intemat
the Church,
for
itirheehs,a,kse
whichof tlie utihs eelyv eas alone,re ierobbue
rtsfo; rtri.eeilobes;Ejlei
interests of that Church in their bands, let whet yet ~ a
what is their duty with regard to it• Vir-' e 'lid
duty is, let them not flinch from its dischargebieep otv
the principle on which 1 shall act. I braereiglia;lr
into this House by the kindness of the
sill potaaa
honour I have received from his hands I wl,'•,1111°,0 1
quish ; I will not do an act unworthy of the.aal,Pladli°- a!
I will nor, by a base vote of mine,five up '-- wit 10 or
have received, and which I almid to tran%jeedi id
posterity. I will not debase the title 1 havefrreca-etigoaa
will I allow my posterity to blame Ine for set'
manner unworthy of my titles and 11°,11 naaja'''
hear, hear.) No man will deny that tbi' is " aloe "tog'
struggle. I call on your Lordships, aa Y°l'o': 'veo'''
tuation in which you have been placed bY
Yostors, ova ii
or which you have inherited from your ance.riateids tad
the people that you will do your duty, noon al Willadael
threats—not guided by interest, but that Yla oe Pe,.
duty as you ought ;do your duty, and re Yo t° toe'
sense of the people, whom I have never Ina° cot be obadi
man for the conscientious perfortnance °I a
1.,‘ er ", 11(.0;
c_tea
rec:eit(vvoegied;tatottiirio:sieta,olnnidea:eirni.a
caiy)ens (
(t.
:II I::
oitt:yim;:.le;ovsytage:fievttatelle;aifnytenrtiog,ittl::lotitioy.ii_iistniei,aseantislinittfilde,yeii,rtilb,Bll,3rtafebYiui,,,,:ei,ri,r,.d,
.te)sristeoeiicetiooter:fe'
tiderorio,ta.notgosol,l,:tit;fji
~r.
The Earl of MULGRAVE could mot beerean° tiosile
ins a few words in opposition to the "usiaaJ °Pala',
had been addressed to them by the Noble,,vervottio°lsol:,
The greater part of that Noble Lord" aa d t'''a eftaa
been directed to the details of the Pill ;t, the l'e,fa 0",
Lord had observed, that the Noble Fearl a',. the ' ',oil"
Government had increased by his argliao,en'sverd sov;3siii
in which the Government were placo' ia not 'tit c 00:
plain consideration why that House sboa'..e' p„ae °` mall'
reject the measure ; and that was, that.; otioritY' it 00
mons had passed it by a very consid ‘,1.:: eoPle.ileWl',,;
had received the unanimous assent of
of those 1)-(1.
evident that no one denied the necessity ' foal yealo.
all admitted it, and that admission differ° Waste to tl,`
sitive denials that had formerly been of fao3 as 00
of Be ' ' lea 10
formerly bean said by the opponents to
that 0 t a
forinersaaja taaae Ob.
want of agreement among the 11'
ngNcooootstt.il•,n,liettuoorLin,t(iles)lrd,ed, and it could no 101 l gea Iceb•eet. 1" f tll6
Reformers were agreed on the some at die dtelir;lir.ii°,ll.letr,it:
Lord opposite had addressed himself r? . and c'rl' a lb.
measure,otat,
l (butnotti,eE „rtoi
otfh emoie principlera,,e) sohf
oviotei 'an
t,re;rlo,:erPsoefatol ?,
I)(te,oo:niiivamittlieltitilttreia:ewrfeo,hrias
read a second time. The Noble Lola
~, a ,ay to g!aa!
people asked for Iltform, and it Was 'uaot all that t ta,,
of that demand to say that this BO! leas,.e.'d one tn• If ''t
der: required.oisio:tsiwi:tle'elsna: atcitliTiel O:
,intfeloga Bond-street luar::itliefe:Ntipc°Lastis),:t..():ltPied:Ltii:nicilill'illairrori:ildivi--sti:gcr(::eigel4llditelki;tra)::l,re:ne,N.te3.lloll,:::a::llls'sib:atil'hhiev.;roe(3ll:ill
less fashionable place--
11
jl:rit'eaoteeleir:iigtouglete,•ilacai t'itrii:h';:'';:dtloetair:l:ll,ll‘l't:dv°f(ll°,)ev(basitei tili,elioitr:lnifihi:enoeeleglirissiosiat(if°,:tti::)olleac!:::dallste,:e}'hl'rell:ijcielrettYc-aPi
nt,t(Niii:ll)tr°ll,let:a;:t3i°io
eril:rj-::lo.l;.e,'oet:svich'ritnilaelit(trurthi'ine,ieht:enallt)hllei
vaetiti:iibt::::sstairrei 'l,i;
►
e
boroughs in the hands of the Aristocracywilolt,l ova
1,0 ,
Reform as u N Ole ,00
any one to introduce such , The ~ace ,
minds,,po ,e of
ff
tht,lei the
ipffiecotpilltey.,—.
f( HfieriTngllse,a:art:: 0 for
f nalloiile'!.`
dt,i :eafr),
tcolifieentrheton'ritir:rrtenleceo;rnalactlnn.—edntdi:eicritehtte'l'iieni'rateln:(alsiPirl::: I"'
Iri telat,t'o°llo.el:l'-iti:
emrleuuccgtiii:ostbi ef
followedforehtilep ul
:lel:cot:1 election) ;n solution,aTnhtthaebrig'rtuel""Uhl :el tnivtaPist a:, larg e °

iority In fa,
the 1an,,,-,ul;
fully nay