The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-22 00:00:00

This morning the Bishop of Chichester (Dr. CAnn) read
prayers ; after which Appeals were proceeded with.
" Loftus v. Smythe," from the Court of Chancery in Ire-
land, was first called for, when- the case was opened by Mr.
Home, but no Counsel was in attendence for the respondent,
*and(pursuant to the Standing Orders of their Lordships) the
appeal was heard ex-parte, and the further hearing was defer-
red to next Monday.
" Grant v. Pedie," from the Court of Session in Scotland,
was next called for e • when Mr. Brougham and Mr. Rose were
heard for the appellant, and Mr. Adam and Mr. Wilson for
the respondent ; and Mr. Rose again in reply. Judgment de-
ferred, but only to an early day.
" Dewar v. Campbell," from the latter Court, was next pro-
ceeded with; and after the Solicitor-General had argued on
behalf of the appellant, the further hearing was adjourned to
Thursday.
The appellate Peers were the Earls of CAEnNAnvoll- and
Drolly, and the Lord Bishop of CursTr R.
Adjourntd at four o'clock during pleasure, and at a quarter
to five o'clock the House resumed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR gave notice that he intended
as their Lordships were mullioned for business on that day,
to move the second reading of the Scotch Judicature Bill on
Thursday.
The Earl of SHAFTSBURY here intimated, that although
a notice of motion was entered for Thursday, their Lordships
were not summoned as yet ; but upon the motion of the
LORD CIIANCELLOR, the sommonses were now directed for
that day.
The Earl of SHAFTSBURY presented a petition from the
traders and the inhabitants of Tiverton, in Devonshire, for an
alteration in the laws respecting the recovery of Small Debts ;
which petition was laid on the table of this House.

• STATE OF. THE NAVY.
The Earl of DARNLEY rose for the purpose of presenting
to their Lordships a petition, which, the Noble Earl said, had
just been.put into his hand from an individual, who complained
of the unsatisfactory condition of our Naval force in regard to
ships. He had taken the petition in order to give this opportu.
nity to his Noble Friend (Melville)opposite,-if so he might call
him, for explaining to their Lordships the real state of the
British Navy in confutation of the prisoner's allegations, and
to assure the public how far, if at all, our shipping was endan-
gered by the dry rot, so as to make our ships unfit to appear
at sea.

• The petition (we understood, from Mr. John Burridge, late
of Portsmouth) was accordingly read.
The Earl of DARNLEY, while laying the petition on the
table, said, 'that he believed the assertions it contained to be at
all events much exaggerated, and perhaps quit() unfounded ;
but he was glad to afford his Noble Friend, by presenting thg
petition, an opportunity to explain to the House.
Viscount MELVILLE had seen, by consent of the Noble
Earl, the petition now before their Lordships ; and he could
safely assert, so far from its allegations being true, that bc-
yond those repairs which it was necessary otir Navy should un-
dergo, the petition set forth matters most untrue. It appeared
that the petitioner had discovered what he himself still con-
ceived to be a specific remedy for the dry rot in shipping, and
which the petitioner professed to cure; but ships pronounced
by the petitioner to be suffering from the dry rot, were, on the
contrary, found on examination to prove perfectly sound.--So
much had lately been said respecting our shipping, that more
care had been taken on that subject of late years, anti parti-
cularly in the examination of ships. If the number of ships
were looked to, in comparison of former times, it would result
that our Navy was better than formerly : and if we adhered to
the old-fashioned sort of materials and dimensions, with Bri-
tish oak, all must be good ; but circumstances had compelled
us to resort in part to our Colonies for ship-timber, which was
necessarily inferior to native. With this exception, and it did
not apply to any extent, their Lordships and the public might
rest assured that, considering the number of ships ready for
service, our Navy was actually in a better state than at any for.
mer time.

The Earl of DARNLEY was quite satisfied with the state-
nnent of his Noble Friend. He recollected that in the case of
the Howe, which was reported to be unsound, she was found
quite the contrary. As, however, he had been in the habit
of making complaints with regard to the state of our ship-
ping, he now felt great pleasure in occasioning a quite differ-
ent statement.

In answer to a question from Earl GROSVENOR, it was
stated, by Viscount MELVILLE, that the timber which was
employed in addition to native in the building of ships,
came partly from our own Colonies and partly from the North
of Europe.

Mr. Parkhouse, from the Commissioners for the Affairs
of India, presented the First Report of the Tanjore Com-
missioners, and the Twenty first Report of the Carnatic Corn-
mi.%ioners.

Mr. Mason, from the East India House, presented an account
of Allowances, Compensations, Remunerations, and Superan-
nuations, granted to Officers and Servants of the East India
Company, pursuant to certain Acts.
Mr. Tierney, froip the Tax Office, presented an account of all
cases which had been decided by the. Judges in relation to the
Assessed Taxes since the Returns made last year.
Adjourned at a quarter to Six o'clock till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The gallery was opehed at a quarter before five o'clock. The
noise and pressing from the influx of strangers were such as to
make the proceedings inaudible. We understood that the call
of the House, Which was fixed (on account of the second reading
of the illegal Societies' Bill) for this flay, was postponed till this
day se'nnight. _

LE WES OF ABSENCE.
Mr. LAM BTON received leave of absence for a month, to
go the Circuit. Several other Members, whose names we could
not catch, received leave of absence on account cf fits of the
gout, domestic misfortunes, &c.
ST. K.-ITHARINE'S DOCK.
Several petitions were presented from different places, in
favour of St. Katharine's Dock.—Ordered to lie on the table.
HERRIES presented a petition from certain inhabitants
of the town of Harwich, in favour of the Bill for the erection of
St. Katharine's Dock.—Ordered to he printed.
Mr. RUMBOLD presented a petition from certain inhabit.
ants of the town of Ipswich, against the erection of the St. Xa-
tharine's Dock.

ASSESSED TAXES.
Mr. BUM BOLD presented u petition from the town of Yar-
mouth, praying for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes.—Ordered
to be printed.

Sir .T. LETHBRIDGE presented a petition from Ax-
bridge„ for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes.—Ordered to lie on
the table.

HOUSE TAX.
Mr. H. DAVIES presented a petition from the
the
parish of
George, in the county of Gloucester, prayingrepealSotf.
for
the House Tax. Also a petition from the parish of Temple, in
the city of Bristol. Ordered to be printed.
COALS.
Mr. T. WILSON moved for a. return of the quantity of
coals exported from Newcastle, with the name of the owner of
the colliery from'which they were drawn, and also of the quan-
tity carried coastwise. Ordered.
A petition was presented from Tavistock, praying for the re-
peal of the duty on sea-borne coals.—Ordered to lie on the t«ble•
CAT ASS OCIATION.
The Earl of BECTHIVOLIE p C resented a petition from the Roman
Catholic inhabitants of Newcastle (as we understood), against
the Bill for the suppression of the Catholic Association.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. GRATTAN presented a petition from Dublin, signed
by some hundreds of the most respectable inhabitants, praying
that the Bill now before the House, for the suppression of the
Catholic Association, be not passed into a law ; and he (Mr.
Grattan) must say, that he heartily concurred with the peti-
tioners, and protested against the Bill, as militating against the
dearest privileges of the subject, as well Protestant as
Catholic,
and as calculated to alienate the affections of the people of Ire-
land, and to turn their attention elsewhere. —The petition was
brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. A. ELLIS presented a petition from Kilkenny, and Sir
J. NEWPORT one from the Catholic inhabitants of the
parishes of St. Michael and St. John, Dublin. both against the
Bill for the suppression of the Catholic Association.—Read, and
ordered to lie on the table.
• Mr. HUME presented a petition frf.ni the Roman Catholic
inhabitants ofTemplcmore, in the county of Tipperary, in

favour of the Catholic Association, stating that that body had
acted in consonance with their wishes, and that they consider
that if the Bill passed into a law, it would be an infringement
of their rights as British subjects; they prayed that the House
would not pass it into a law till they. had been heard, as they
were prepared to answer any accusation brought against them,
Mr. Hume said, that for his own part he fully concurred with
the prayer of the petitioners, and be was sorry to see Ministers
propose the further oppression of Ireland; he also lamented
that the English people did seem inclined to repel this attack
on the liberties common to both.--Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON presented several petitions, stating
that the petitioners believedhis Majesty's Ministers to have been
deceived in the represenations made to them respecting the Ca-
tholic Association, and praying the measure should not pass.—
He (Mr. Hutchinson) thought that if Ministers should carry
this Bill to the foot of the throne, for Royal approbation, that
they ought tolose their heads for the danger they would bring
upon the country. The Ministers had not only the Catholics
against them, but the greater part of the Protestants ; hut the
measure did not originate wish the liberal part of the Cabinet-
it was only consented to by theirs, that they might not lose their
places. Lord 'Wellesley had been compelled to disgrace him-
self, for this was not his measure. Ile had said, and would say
again, that whatever might be the majority Ministers might
have, and he was sure every man who felt as a freeman would
think so also, that it was an unjust measure. The lion. Gen-
aleman concluded by presenting petitiomi from the Catholic
inhabitants of the barony of Bantry, the town. of Voughal, and
the parishes of Drumclogue, Scull, and Kilmoony, all in the
county of Cork—Ordered to be printed.
Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition froni the Catholic
inhabitants of Maryborough, in the Queen's county,; also from
the inhabitants of the barony of Durrow, in the same county,
against the bill for the suppression of illegal associations in Ire-
land.—Ordered to he printed.
Sir F. BURDETT presented a petition from the Catholic
inhabitants of the town of Birmingham, against the bill for the
suppression of illegal associations in Ireland ; also a petition
from the Catholic inhabitants of Kihnore, county of Cavan,
against the hill for the suppression of illegal associations in Ire-
land. The Hon. Baronet said a few' words in support of the
?sayer of the petitioners.—Ordered to he printed.
Mr. GOLTLBURN presented a petition, signed by two thou-
sand freemen and freeholders of the City of Dublin. The peti-
tion stated, that the petitioners were averse to what is called
Catholic Emancipation, because they considered such a mea-
sure incompatible with the security of our free Constitution.
They viewed with considerable alarm the establishment of such
a body as the Catholic Association, holding its sittings in the
.face of the GOvernment, levying taxes to a large amount, and
inflaming, by its violent discussions, the minds of the mis-
guided populace. In conclusion, the petitioners prayed. the
House to consider some measure to -guard against the evils
Which had arisen, and were likely to arise from the proceedings
bf the Catholic 'Association. Mr. Goulburn said, the main
assertions contained in the petition met his full concurrence.
The petition was ordered to he printed. •
Sir AGAR ELLIS presented petitions from the Catholic in-
habitants of Athlone, Illiddlehurst, and Rathhard, against the
Bill for the suppression of illegal societies in Ireland.—Ordered
to be printed.
Mr. BROUGHAM, in presenting petitions from the Ca-
tholic inhabitants of certain parishes in the county of Cork,
against the Bill intro:Need for the suppression of illegal As-
sociations in Ireland, took occasion to observe, that he hoped
his Majesty's Ministers would at least see the necessity of
giving the inhabitants of Ireland, and those who were op.
posed to the Bill in this country, an opportunity of express-
ing their sentinients by petition. lie undetstood that peu-
tions were likely to come from every parish in Ireland, and-
from many parishes in England. He was convinced that the
more generally the _principle of the measure should be known,-
the greater opposition it 'woujd meet with. The Bill was
little known yet ; it could not be known- in Ireland ; it was
only known to that House a week ago, and the details of
the measure could scarcely have reached the remote parts of
Ireland. He hoped his Majesty's Ministers would consider
the necessity of delaying to give the country an opportunity
of expressing its opinion. The Oth-Olies had a right to this
consideration; the House refused to hear them at the bar,
and at least it should not refuse to hear their petitions.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
CORPORATE RIGHTS OF CATHOLICS.
Mr. BROUGHAM presented a Petition from three indivi-
duals, residents of the city of Dublin, named John Alcock,
James Alcock, and James Henderson, complaining of the un-
just detention of their corporate rights by the Corporation of the
City of Dublin. Mr. Brougham said, that this Petition was
an answer to what had been so repeatedly asserted, that none
but those in high stations were affected by the disabilities under
which the Roman Catholics suffered. It was also an illustra.
lion of what had been said on his (Mr. Brougham's)
side of the House, respecting the practical utility of such
a body as the Catholic Association. The House were
aware that individuals, by birth and a certain servitude,
became entitled to the civic freedom in the city of Dub-
lin. The petitioners stated their claims in the regu-
lar way, and had them laid before the Councils but they
were rejected for no other reason but because they were Ca-
tholics. They had an undoubted legal right, two by birth and
one by servitude, but still the Corporation refused to admit
them. lie (Mr. B.)spledged himself as a lawyer, that the pe-
titioners had as strong a legal right- to the civic freedom as an
eldest lawful son, after his father's decease, has to the freehold.
The right having been withheld by the Corporation, the peti-
tioners applied to the Court of King's Bench for a mandamus ;
the mandamus was grunted, and the rule made absolute ; in-
deed it could not have been otherwise. By force of this man-
damus the petitioners became possessed of their rights. Had
they been Prostestants' they would have been admitted without
a moment's delay, and without the expellee of a single farthing.
Did not this prove that the penal Statutes, and the abuses
growing out of them, affected the middle and the lower classes
as well as those in a high station ? It also illustrated the second
proposition which he had laid down, namely, the useful charac-
ter of the Catholic Association in supporting the needy and op-
pressed against the wealthy and the powerful. If the peti-
tioners had not the assistance of the Catholic Association, there
well-groundedrehaheld
reasons
ffortrnsutphpeorvsinfgo,r
etvheart.—rtiiiirearrif)l2
The
wwoa usldhave been withheld
petitioners were ready to prove the( facts stated in the peti-
tion--the' challenged inquiry. The petition distinctly proved
that the Catholic is in a different situation from the Protestant
at respects his corporate rights.--(Hear, hear !)--fle also con-
tended, that it proved the practical utility of the Catholic As-
sociation.

Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that the hardships com-
plained of by the petitioners were of daily recurrence in Ire-
land, and he regretted to add, that there were often grievous
aggravations of such a line of conduct. More than one per.
son had been refused admittance to his Guild—a preparatory
step to his being admitted a freeman—for no other reason but
curing one mandamus to gain admission to the Guild, he
a Roman Catholic ! After pro-
because he happened to be
had then the trouble and expence of applying for a second
mandamus to put him in possession of the civic right, to
Which, as his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham)
said, he was as much entitled as an eldest son to the freehold of
his father. It was really a monstrous perversion of power
which was given to Corporations, to preserve the rights of the
public, but which they too often applied to the injury of those
rights.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The instance which this petition
brought under the notice of the House was not a solitary in-
stance; there were a hundred other instances equally oppres-
sive and unjust. It was a notorious fact, that, in order to in-
duce persons connected with the Orange faction to become
freemen, the fees of admission were diminished to one half, one
third, and, in some instances, one fourth of the ordinary rate, to
the evident detriment of the corporate property ; whilst, on the
other hand, every obstacle was thrown in the way of the Roman
Catholics who applied for admission—not only of the Catholics,
but of all those who were suspected to be friendly to their
cdemonlaims.
d Ile understood there was a respectable Protestant gen-
desirous of presenting a petition on this subject : he,
like the petitioners, had his corporate tights withheld, because
he desired that his Catholic fellow-subjects should participate
fully in the benefits of the Constitution. Ile repeated that this
was a monstrous nervermon of power. Perhaps it only affected
ustice, aniPit was high time for
the humbler classes, but the humble man had rights as well as
the proudest Nobleman in the land ; they were peculiarly
interfere and protect their rights.—(Hear ! )
the Legislature to
laid on the
The petition was then table, and ordered to be
pressed upon by
o petition praying that no law
printed.
presented petition front the parish
e'orporate inj
. should not he condemned
su resion of the Catholic Association,
onfl
a3Syltri.)CeApaßtahsEes
erßidneefo'Rsr,°tin:eltßh elp'cpit
andwith that9ut
nity of being
on opportu g heard, The Hon.
httalevinegatholic Association

Member said, that the Catholic§ were only anxious to procure
equal laws and equal rights by constitutional means._
In these sentiments of the Catholics he fnlly concurred ; be-
cause he considered such sentiments just and legitimate and
he hoped the Catholics would persevere, by all the means
which that House should leave in their power, until they ob-
tained a repeal of those laws which excluded them from a full
participation in the benefits of the Constitution. It was un
necessary for him to say, that he entffely concurred in the
opinion of the petitioners, that no law ought to be passed for
the suppression of the Catholic Association ; and it must be
quite unnecessary for him to say, that he fully concurred with
the petitioners, that the Catholic Association should not be cone
demned without a hearing. The contrary might be the'senti-
ment of the House, but it was a sentiment so abhorrent to
every feeling of justice—to every feeling which he (Mr, Aber-
croinby) had imbibed, by intercourse, reading, or reflection,
that he should never have believed it possible that the Hoitse
could have adopted it, if it had not been proved by the vote of
a previous evening, by which the Catholic Association was de-
nied a hearing.,The petition was then read, 01+0i-tiered to be printed'.
BRITISH CATHOLICS
Lord NUGENT presented a petition from. certain members
of the British Catholic Association, against the Bill for the sup-
pression of illegal Associations in Ireland, His Lordship said,
he had no doubt the petition would have been more fully sign-
ed, if there had been sufficient opportunity. As the Bill was
pressed forward so rapidly through that House, the petitioners
thought it advisable to have the least possible delay in the pre-
sentation of their petition. This circumstance accounted for
the comparative paucity of the names attached to it. It was
signed, however, by his Grace the Duke of Norfolk, the Earl
of Shrewsbury, Lord Stourton, Lord Arundel, and a number of
Roman Catholic gentlemen of the greatest respectability,
amongst whom lie noticed the names of two Rieman Ca-
tholic Baronets. He (Lord Nugent) was naturally anxious to
express his opinion on this important subject; he suspended his
intention, however, under the feeling that a more convenient
opportunity would occur when the Bill should be directly
before the House. He could not sit down, however, without
observing, that he fully concurred with the petitioners, that the
'Bill was alike injurious to public liberty and to the civil rights
of individuals.
The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
JURIES.
Mr. PJEL gave notice, that he would on Thursday next
move for leave to bring in a Bill to consolidate the Laws re-
lating to Juries—more particularly Special Juries.—(Hear I)
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.---NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir G. CLERK, in bringing forward the Navy Estimates,
observed, that, on the Extraordinaries of the Navy, there was
an increase in the present year, as compared with the last, of
120,0001. This arose from the enhanced price of materials,
and from the additional expence of wear and tear. On the
ordinary estimate there was an increase of 80,0001., in conse,
quence of a very considerable addition having been made in
the wages of the artificers employed in the dock-yards. For
the last four years they had been restricted to five days in the
week instead of working during the entire six.—They were
now, however, employed throughout the six days, which
sufficiently accounted for the increased expence. The sum
voted last year was 460,0001. This year about 540,0001. would
be necessary. On the half-pay pensions,_ and superannuations,
there was a reduction. It would hare been greater; but some
of the items, which were formerly -placed to another account,
were now, under the Act of last Session, charged on the esti-
mate. A considerable sum was charged for carrying on se-
veral of the new works on the coast, Amongst these, one
of the most prominent was the docks at Sheerness. For
the first time they were called on to provide for the build-
ing of store-houses and officers' houses in the new yard.
Formerly the charge was made for carrying on works,
which 'were nearly finished, and it was not intended by the Ad-
miralty to have gone on any farther; but an offer was made
to them by the architect, that if he were permitted'to proceed
more rapidly, and to use the materials and machinery lie had
on the spot, he would be enabled to finish the new works in
a short period, and at a reduced price. It was estimated that
50,0001. would complete the undertaking. The architect was
to receive 4001. a-year, and to be allowed 3i per cent. on any
money hemight advance, should it be found necessary, beyond
the 50,0001. The. sum of 795,0007., which stood in the first
column of the estimate, might be considered sufficientfor all the
works. There was an increase on the estimate for the works in
progress at Plymouth Sound. Independent of the ordinary
works, they were building a light-house there, and it was necessa-
ry that that part or the breakwater which adjoined the light-
house should be built more substantially than the other portions
of it. It was necessary that it should be built of solid materials,
and of a large size., to remove any apprehension of danger from
the violence of the sea. This was the reason why there was so
large an addition to the sum necessary for completing this great
national undertaking. It should also be observed, that the
breakwater had received some damage from the hurricane of the
23d November last. But it was satisfactory to be enabled to
state, that the mischief was not of any very considerable extent.
That great national work proved, on that occasion, that it
was perfectly suited to effect the object for which it was erected.
To prevent the possibility of its sustaining any injury in fu-
ture, it would be finished in the most substantial manner.
It was now very nearly completed, and, when finished, even
with this additional charge, would come within the amount
of the estimate laid before the House in 1812, The estimate,
before the injury from the gales, was 286,000/., it would be
now 295,0001. Some alteration would be made in the build-
ings connected with the victualling department, &c., at Ply
mouth. At present, those establishments stood at opposite
sides of the harbour. The establishment at South Down, I
where the brewery was established, was very far removed
from the ships, and was only accessible at particular times.
This was an inconvenience which the Admiralty meant to
remove. The establishment was not built on ground the
property of the Crown' but was held by lease, which lease
was now nearly expired. It was intended to purchase it, and
to re-build the old houses, as had been recommended by
Earl St. Vincent-when he was at the head of the Admiralty.
It was also in contemplaticin to build a sea-wall, for the
greater security and convenience of shipping. The expence
altogether would amount to about 40,000/. He concluded by
moving for the sum of 54,8861. to defray the salaries and con-
tingent expences of the Admiralty-office for the year 1325.
Mr. HUME could not understand why so large an expence
was incurred on account of the Navy. if the promises held out
by those who were at the head of the Government, in former
years, were worthy of the smallest attention, that expellee ought
now to be very sensibly diminished. The House might imagine,
because there was only an increase of 200,0001. this year, and
203,0001. last year, that therefore the'rnatter was not deserving
of their attention—that it was of no importance. But they
ought not to view the estimate
.in that light; they ought to
look to what its general amount was, and to consider whether
that amount was really necessary. In 1016 a. committee was
appointed to examine into, and estimate the probable expence
of the Navy ter that and subsequent years, and they made
their report in the House accordingly. And now, in the year
1825, instead of the aggregate amount of the expences being
reduced, it was actually greater than it was in 1817. So
thowgh a reduction was made in one or two years, they were
now increasing the charge very considerably. In 1817 the
estimate was 5,242,0001., this, year it was 5,930,000/. Un-
less the world at large were at war with this country, there
could be no necessity for such an enormous expence. They
had been told, and they had a right to expect, that a very
great decrease would be effected-in a most important article—
namely, the half pay and allowances. But, so far from that
expence being lowered to the extent of which hopes had been
held out, from 5 per cent. to 7 per cent., it was actually now
very nearly as great as when the proposed reduction was inti-
mated. He thought there was something very extraerdinay in
the system of keeping up half-pay and allowances on so
was
exten-
nillinajseasytyin'sg that the systeministers bring back
m,
decidedly
ar lvebi
del ep‘ehlr,ashdoynt
sidoiwdl ihenosoi
were
ahet
rii 41e
on
half
pay,
whenever vacan-
cies occurred ?
Promotions were now as frequent as ever, with
the exception of the conclusion of the war, when a great num-
ber of promotions were gazetted. The Secretary of the Admi-
ralty had declared on a former occasion, that whenever a va-
cancy occurred
lie hoped time nom Secretary would lay on the table a
a list
up ,by
individuals on half-
d during the.last mew
of .
t: re vacancies should
which be filledha(i occurred
ect
years, and show how many of those unfortunate individuals,
who were on half-pay, had been brought back to full-pay. He
feared the number would prove very small indeed. In 1317,
the half-pay list amounted to 1,146,600/. It had, gone on in-
creasing—and was, in the present year, 1,387,6921. ; the re-
duction, as compared with the preceding year, was only 38,0001.
In a few days he would move for an account of all thes
promotiOns which had taken place in the last year, which would
enable the House to judge of the extent of this evil. Flom

' the rapidity with which promotions, were made whenever ea:
. cancies occurred, he feared they were not :likely- to ;see kik
great reduction made in this branch of the expenditure. Two
years ago, the reductions effected by his Majesty's- Minister!!
seemed to be dictated by a proper spirit—that of giving relief
to the country at large, but they appeared to havelost sight, of
that object, and no reduction had latterly taken place.
re
thought, therefore, that it was better for the Mouse to look•at-
at the aggregate amount of the estimates, rather than to consider
the details at the present moment. They ought to say, distinct-
ly, " so much is sufficient for the service of the country, the re-
mainder must be reduced." He considered their naval force- at
the present moment as enlirely toolarge. Here was an estimate
of 5,933,000/. for the navy. Was it possible,- that in time of
peace a sum so enormous could be wanted ? The South Attie-7
rican States were so firmly established, that they were deemed
fit objects for commercial treaties. In that quarter, then, no
fleet was necessary; and he should be glad to know where
any extensive naval force was required. The salaries• /lOW •
paid in the publio offices were quadruple—nay, quiistuple
those which had been. paid in any former peace ; and on- •
questionably there was no necessity fin such an increase of emo-
lument. The amount of money .expended at this- momes;t
for building ships was enormous. No less than 1,000,000/, a
year was thus laid out. The Hon. Secretary for
the Admi-
ralty had said, that not more than fopr or five millions had
been thus expended during the peace ; but the papers on the
table contradicted that statement, and their contents would not
be denied. They were throwing away a million annually on
the building of ships, which were rapidly flilling into decay.
We had already no less than 500 ships of war, a greater naval
force than all the states of the world could command—why,
therefore, should. they go on building ? They ought to cease
from building new ships, and apply themselves to keeping in
perfect repair the old ones. The newly-built vessels were de--
stroyed by the dry-rot. The Hon. Comptroller of the Navy
(Sir B. Martin) smiled at the idea of the dry-rot. It was the
fact, nevertheless, that it was doing a great deal of Mischief.—
The Hon. Comptroller, and others on the opposite side of the
House, had stated that this evil did not exist to any great ex-
tent. But their statements were by no means borne out. If
he looked at the immense expence incurred for the repair o 1
vessels, he would find that the dry-rot did very great damage
to the Navy. He would not go the length which some indi-
viduals did, and say that half the navy was useless, hut
he believed, from concurrent report, that more damage had been
done to 'our ships of war since the use of unseasoned timber
came into fashion, than was ever before known. Those who'
had the management of the naval department tried all manner
of experiments to check the evil. One time they used coal-tar,'
at another oil ; then they covered the ships when building, and
sometimes they salted the timber. They went backwards and
forwards with their experiments, which afforded the best proof
that they themselves did not know how to remedy the disease.
He would ask, did they now use coal-tar, or did they apply.
oil, or, in short, did they pursue any settled system ? They
Were changing their course of proceeding every four or fire
years; and he now submitted to the House, that the expendi.:
ture of upwards of 1,000,000/. a-year for the building of ships
deserved much more consideration than' had been given to the
subject. The discovery of steam navigation had altered the
nature of maritime warfare altogether. Come war when
it might, the mode of warfare in the narrow seas would be very
different from what it was at present. They were now expend.: ing a million a-year in building ships of war, and it' a period
arrived for the renewal of hostilities, they would not, •
perhaps, be used at all. It would' be much better to
cease from building ships for the next five years, and to keep'
up in good repair the live hundred we already possessed. The
whole of Europe had not that number,of ships. Why not let
. the timber for the navy remain in the forests until imperious
necessity called for it to be felled.
.The axe could be applied
whenever it was really wanted. No man wished more than he
did to see an efficient navy kept up, but he never could agree to
the useless and extravagant expenditure of SO, large a sum of
money. He saw a considerable sum charged for the improve-
merits in dock-yards acrd wharfs. He was surprised at thie,
after what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Harwich (Sir.
O. Warrender). • That lion. Member had suited, that if he
had been aware, three or four years ago, that ships might be
easily conveyed from Chatham to Sheerness by the means of
steam-boats, which could tow them up and down, the sum ex-
pended on Sheerness should not have been laid out. Here,
however, it appeared, that the sum of 795,0001. was to be voted
for works now in progress at Sheerness. When they had such a
dock-yard as that of Chatham, and when ships might be carried
up and down without delay, by means of steam-boats, he could
not but view this establishment at Sheerness as most gratuitous
and useless. If, at a period of war, when they -had a thousand
ships, they could do without this establishment, what could
they possibly want with it now in a time of profound peace ?
There was also an enormous charge-_a charge of 300,0001., for
works at Plymouth, which deserved the attention of the House.
—When sums of this magnitude were called for, Parliament
ought to have a little more detailed information than could-be
contained in a speech delivered at the table. He also observed
a charge for the dock-yard establishment at Halifax. Why
could not Halifax defray its own expences ? There was no
reason why the people of England should,' from year to year,
be burdened in this way. He wished to see the navy; which •
was, and deserved to be, the favourite service of the country,
kept in the most efficient state ; but he could not suffer what
he conceived to be a useless expenditure, which would go on
increasing, if it were not checked, to pass unnoticed.
Mr. ROBERTSON said, when their commerce was increas-
ing in every quarter of the globe, it was proper that a very)
large naval force should be kept up, for the purpose of protect
lag it. He contended that they ought not to cease from building
ships, since they were necessary to the welfare and security of
the country. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had in his opinion .
recommended. the most mischievous policy, on this occasion.,
that could possibly be devised. Formerly our commerce wa4
confined to Europe, the Mediterranean, and the West Indies ;
but now there was not a country on the face of the earth where
our ships were not at anchor.--(Hear, hear!)—lf, then, a new,
rupture occurred, was it not necessary that a great naval force .
should be read to protect them ?—(hear, hear !)—He trusted
his Majesty's Ministers would not shrink from their duty, but
that they would extend the navy as much as possible, not duly
to repel the aggression of foreign powers, but to protect the
im-
mense commerce of' Great B:itain.—(llear 1) -
Mr. HU.llk said, he was as anxious as any man to have.the-
navy in an efficient state—in such a state that it might, cope
with the world ; but the real mischievous policy of which he
complained was, the system of building ships merely to rot.
The resolution .was then agreed to.
The sum (4'29,633/. was moved' for the salaries and contin-
gent expences of the Navy Pay-office.
Mr. HUME said, the expence of'this office in a former period
of peace was 12 or 13,000/. ; and it ought certainly to he reduced,
Sir B. 3IAR'I'IN said, at the time to which the Hon. Mem_.
tier referred, there was not the shadow of the busintls
was now to be performed. It was utterly impossible to execute
it for a smaller sum.
Resolution agreed to.
The next vote was 56,760/., for salaries and contingent exe
pences of the Navy.office.-
Mr. HUME thought there were too many Commissioners
iii
this department.
Sir B. MARTIN said, there was the same number of corn' "
miseioners, now as there had been in the time of the late war,
and there was quite sufficient to keep them employed. 'there
were, howevee, four commissioners less than 'in the Arneri%iat
war. In 1786, there were seven commissioners. Ate
period a commission was appointed to investigate
thern state
Nave
of different offices, and amonat others, of
insufficient for the business of the office; .
'office. They reported that seven commissioners
anncr(eased to tea
it was recommended that the number should be increased
one-tenth of commissioners ; and at that time there was not
the peace, the
the business that was now performed. - 7718,14:
-Since
to the
whole of the transport department hadbe
e sn
e "Id sab
20,0001. a-year. The •
Navy-office, by which the public saved_ diminished, as compared
number of commissioners had belo
afi-cheorsw were under
d ise
ht haergmi•
d been increased. By the
with 1789, whilst their business
had
three commissioners in each
Order in Council they a
e
committee ; but Lowii7rs::.w•Tlielllvillc '
e
only two to each committee. It
oilers than they had.
business with fewer commisel that the additional labour fell,
iartislitdmeedpfroatshysai impossible eet hetexor
expence
the
Mr. itUIIE was
voted
was for 157,1761. for his Majesty's yards •
The resolution
The sum of 33,9771• in the Victualling-office.
t resolution
The next
at borne. TCH BULL comlained, as we understood,
laries
Sir E. K,
shipwrights anti other•
that many
deek.yard at Chatham, while none were removed fro •
from the
41
fsmouth or Plymouth. The consequence. of this was,
yor.
that
not on
rtiltilecCosnohitn:ligieirsn.isgeionnezrrse,cbdu:oonthoasnel