The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-28 00:00:00

thet it would press so severely on the poor tenants. Let
it go forth, he would say, to the people of Ireland, who
had been implored in every possible way to petition
against the rate in aid—let it go forth to them that the
Hon. Member fur Cork (Mr. Frgan) proposed more to
relieve them by his amendment, and he (Mr. Reynolds)
wished, therefore, to test the sincerity of Hon. Gentle-
men by seeirg whether they would support that amend-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel DUNNE thought it was very convenient for
Hon. Members who had visited their constituents during
the recess, and who had been lectured by them, to en-
deavour now to recover their lost popularity. He was
opposed to the opinions of the Hon. Member for Dublin
(Mr. Reynolds), and should vote against the amendment.
Mr. FOX thought when the Hon. Member for Dublin
(Mr. Reynolds) was so staunch a supporter of the present
measure, he ought to hare been in his place to have
aided it by his vote.
Mr. REYNOLDS—I voted for it twice.
Mr. FOX would remind the Hon. Member that he
was not present at the last division. As to the amend-
ment now before the House, he (Mr. Fox) should op-
pose it, as he saw no reason why the middle den of
Ireland should be exempted, who had to a great ex-
tent been the authors of the present misery of the coun-
try.—(hear, hear.)
Sir H. W. BARRON hoped the House would support
the measure in the shape it had been brought forward by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland (Sir
W. Somerville).
Sir G. GREY, in answer to a remark of the Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir H. W. Barron), said he had always deprecated
any alteration in the incidents in the rate in aid and the
ordinary poor-rate.
Mr. SCULLY opposed the amendment.
Sir A. BROOKE would leave it to the Hon. Member
for Cork (Mr. Fakan) and her Majesty's Government to
settle the question.—(Laughter.)
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said he would not
attempt to render a tax of such a nature palatable by
doing a greater injury.
Mr. KEOGH thought the Hon. Member for Cork
(Mr. Pagan) should tell them what the clause he had
proposed meant.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Fagan's proviso l3
For the clause
Majority BB
Colonel DUNNE thought that it was unfair that
unions should be bound to support the poor belonging to
other unions, while the poor belonging to themselves
were in want of their necessary support. He then moved
the follo)ving amendment:—" That the word ' in' be
struck out in, page 2, line 11, in order to insert the fol-
lowing words, viz., by a separate rate to be made im-
mediately subsequent to.'"
Sir G. GREY said that no collision would be caused,
as had been implied by the Hon. and Gallant Gentle-
man (Colonel Dunne). He thought the present plan the
most effectual.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that when the Hon. Member
for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) asked what was the
security for the 100,000/., he should say that at the time
that the people are dying of starvation, was such a ques-
tion to be put by one who pretended to be an advocate
for the distressed condition of Ireland ? He knew from
experience the squalidness that prevailed in the county
of Waterford.
Sir H. W. BARRON said that such was not the case,
as he had always employed all on his estate, and not
only those, but persons from other counties who came
into his property, and that he spent 4,5001. in drainage.
Mr. STAFFORD said, that the rate in aid would be
levied either with or without opposition. If without op-
position, there could be ne reason for not levying it by
itself. If it should be opposed, then the attempt to col-
lect it in conjunction with the ordinary poor-law would
endanger the whole system. It was upon that state of
the case, he begged to inform the Hon. Member for Dub-
lin, that he intended to vote for the amendment. In
reply to the Hon. Member's inquiry as to the security
which ho proposed to offer for the vote of 100,000/.. he
begged to state that it was the income-tax against which
the lion. Member voted for on a former evening, and,
by doing so, absolved himself and his relative (who, it
appeared, had been appointed to a lucrative office under
the Government) from contributing to the relief of the
distresses of his countrymen.
Mr. REYNOLDS deprecated the allusion which Ind
been made to the appointment received by his son. His
son was indebted for the appointment solely to the
friendship of the Master of the Mint, whom be (Mr.
Reynolds) had known for 25 years. The office was,
he would not say a contemptible one, but one which
was certainly of no great value —it was that
of a second assistant to the solicitor for the Mint.
His son was a gentleman by birth, education, and con•
duct, and was entitled to be a solicitor if he pleased.
The Hon. Member (Mr. Bateson), who had asked a
question about his son's appointment at an earlier
period of the evening, was probably angry because he
(Mr. Reynolds) called him a captain on a former occa-
sion in consequence of his exhibiting the signs of the
military profession. [ln order to make this and the suc-
ceeding observation intelligible to the reader, it is ne•
cessary to state that Mr. Bateson wears moustaches.]
In conclusion, he would tell the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber—for gallant he could not help calling him when he
looked at him—that if he meant: to give up the military
trade he ought to take do.vn the !signboard.
Mr. BATESON would not notice the personal obser-
vations of the lion. Member, but would content himself
with asserting his right to put a question to a Minister
of the Crown respecting the appointment of the lion.
Member's son to an office in the Mint.—(Hear, hear.)
If the young gentleman merited the panegyric which
his father had bestowed upon him, it was a pity that
he should have sacrificed so hopeful a youth by piec-
ing him in a position which he described as so con-
temptible.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN and Male'
BLACKALL, the Committee divided, when there ap-
peared—

• 35
- 113

For the amendment
Against it ... ...
Majority ... ... 78
Upon the question that the clause stand part of the
Bill,

Mr. KEOGH dissented from the principle of the Bill
under consideration.
The second clause was then put an.l agreed to.
On the third clause being proposed,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD dissented from it,
observing that as the Bill involved a principle of taxa-
tion without representation he thought a national' board
ought to be appointed to exercise a control over the
disbursement of the money to be levied under the Ac►.
He therefore proposed that a national board be ap-
pointed, toy exercise: such control as that to which he
alluded over the funds to be raised.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the Hon. Member, with respect to the disbursement of
the money, that if any party more than another was
likely to be overhauled on the subject the Lords of the
Treasury were.
The Committee then divided on the amendment, and
the numbers were—
For the amendment l9
Against it
Majority
Mr. GRATTAN, on our return to the gallery, was
addressing the Committee on the subject of emigration,
which he disapproved of, and said that he hoped the
effect of legislation for Ireland might be to keep the
Irish people at home. The Hon. Member wished .to
move a resolution to that effect, but--
Sir G. GREY, interrupting him, said it was too late,
as they had passed the part of the Bill at which it would
have been competent for him to do so.

The clause was then agreed to without a division, as
was also the fourth, which is the last.

Mr. A. S. ADAIii, moved a clauFeto the effect that
whenever a rate in aid should have been levied on any
union, and a sum drawn from the union on credit to
supply it, the occupier primarily liable might deduct the
)unt from his immediate landlord.

Sir G. GREY opposed the clause for the same reason
iutsewpasrotp,xoascedtly by the lion.
a s
Member he had
for
o pcpoorske,d
O wehicAfter a few words from Lord CASTLEREAGH,
Colonel DUNNE recommended the Hon. Member not
to press his motion.
Mr. ADAIR then withdrew his clause.
Colonel DUNNE said he had three clauses to move,
thchla
but after hearing the debate he did not think it neces-
sary to press his motion in the Committee.
Mr. ADAIR said he had three clauses to move rela-
tive to the advances; but as he thought sufficient provi-
sion was made in the Bill he should not press them on
the Committee.
On the question of the preamble,
Sir J. YOUNG said he wished to call the attention
of the Committee to a misinterpretation of the evidence
of Mr. Twisleton, which he thought the Hon. Member
for Dundalk had certainly made, the evidence in ques-
tion having reference to the distressed state of Ireland.
Mr. Twisleton admitted his having expressed an opinion
that the distressed unions could go on without assist-
ance; but that was always on the supposition that no
other measure could be adopted. Mr. Twisleton, above
all things, wished to remove the idea, if it existed, that
he at all considered the poor-law in Ireland to have
failed.

Mr. MCULLAGII said that if he had misinterpreted
Mr. Twiniton's evidence he was truly sorry for having
done so.

.
Ceptam JONES said he had understood that all the
money raised by the rate in aid was to be disposed of by
the Commissioners.
But, then, after the amendment of
the Hon. Alember for Cork, he had much doubt upon it,
and should be glad to know from the Government whether
it was so or not.

Sir G. GREY said that the money raised by this Bill
would be subject to the same rules as that at the disposal
of the Poor-law Commissioners.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported
the Bill to the House, and the report was ordered to be
received to-morrow (this day).
arts JOHN RUSSELL said that, in consequence of
the lateness of the hour, he would not propose that the
Navy Estimates should be proceeded with that evening
also,but
that only t hoe)
eCommitteed
ionfs.Souf p pt
hl yo. R
ee s
ihno uAI
slid
rBo
ipl
Ipose,be,
taken on Monthly.

- SUPPLY.
The House then went into Committee of, Supply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
for a vote of 52,115/., to refund to the next of kin of a
person named Turner, whose estate was estreated to the
Crown, and was paid into the Treasury in 1845, under
the supposition of his having no heirs. Subsequent)},
in 1846, a bill was filed in Chancery to recover it, the
next of kiu having appeared, and admitted by a jury to
be entitled.

f Sir H. WILLOUGHBY a,lccd when the money was
paid into the Consolidated Fund.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
more than 54,0001. was paid over in 1846, of which the
amount of this vote was the principal item. The par-
ticulars would be found in the papers of 1844. •
CiQULBURN said he hoped some provision would