The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-06 00:00:00

in 1848, and now a boundary commission was
appointed. He believed it was not premature to state
that the tendency of that commission's report would
be to make a very considerable reduction in the area of
taxation for poor-law purposes. The Right lion. Gen-
tleman (Sir W. Somerville) said that the Government
were upbraided because, having promised a Committee,
they had kept their word. Now all that he (Mr. Staf-
ford) said when the Noble Lord mentioned his intention
of granting a Committee on the Irish Poor-law was, that
he suspended his opinion until he should know what the
Ministerial arrangements might be ; and what he com-
plained of was, not only that the Government had
hitherto refused to lay any Bill before the House for the
consideration of that Committee, but that they had also
refused to specify what portions of the Irish Poor-law
they were determined to take their stand on, thereby
shrinking from their responsibility as a Government, and
giving rise, probably, to unfounded hopes and vague
misapprehensions in ,the public mind. Their conduct
tended to confirm the report generally spread, that they
had had recourse to this Committee because they were,
with respect to the Irish Poor-law, a divided Govern.
ment, and delayed legislation, because they were incom-
petent to come to a decision.—(Hear.)
Col. DUNNE thought that the difference of opinion
existing on the subject of the Irish poor-law justified
the Government in nominating a Committee. Last year
he had moved for a Committee on the subject, and the
step now taken by the Government proved that he was
right. The great mistake was to suppose that a poor-
law sufficient for an ordinary state could operate well
under circumstances of extraordinary and extreme des-
titution from want of employment, and in some of the
districts of Ireland the whole production of the land
would be found insufficient for the support of the popu-
lation. The Hon. Member, after referring to the case
of the Marquis of Sligo, who, he stated, paid 2,5001.
for poor-rate, besides 6,0001. for family charges, and to
othcr instances, observed that it was useless for any
Irish proprietor to attempt to exert himself under the
present law, for it paralyzed all endeavours he might
make, the relief to the person receiving it being inade-
quate, while to the person paying it, it was ruin.---(Hear,
hear.) He was glad that a Committee was now proposed,
for it would show the English Members that Ireland had
not the same poor-law as England; it was different in
the rating and in the operation, and, above all, it was
bad in the administration, and required extensive altera-
tion. Irish gentlemen had no wish to repudiate the sup-
port of their starving countrymen; but the present poor-
law system required alteration. The support of the poor
inside the workhouse should be separated from the sup-
port outside.
Mr. SADLIER could make allowance for the meagre
character of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Sir W. Somerville), as he had so many duties to per-
form; but some member of the Cabinet would probably
rise to answer the inquiries which had-been made in the
course of the debate, and there were one or two other
points to which it might be well to call attention; for
instance, the mode in which the rates were recovered.
When a rate had been collected as far as the collectors
stated they were able to procure payment, a second rate
was made to supply the deficiency in tho collection of
the first, and was probably levied upon the same
parties as before, the original defaulters going
scot-free on both occasions ; this was practically
a direct encouragement to a landlord to have
upon his estate tenants who could pay a rack-rent,
but who would be unable to pay poor-rates. Again, it
would be impossiile to entertain the subject of a law of
settlement in Ireland, unless it was understood what the
Government (for it was not proper to leave it to others)
intended to do with respect to the establishment of a
good system of registration of births, deaths, and mar-
riages. As to charging mortgagees with poor-rate, that
would prevent the investment of capital in Ireland—if
indeed this had not been already done. Let the Noble
Lord (J. Russell) address himself with practical, well
digested measures to the question—what was to be done
with the surplus agricultural population of Ireland? If
the Government did not make a total revision of the sys-
tem under which Ireland had been cast as regarded
unions and electoral divisions, they might depend upon
it that no amendments which they could introduce would
have the effect of relieving the destitution and giving full
encouragement to the industry of Ireland. He hoped
that the unions and electoral divisions of that country
would be so constructed as to approximate to the size of
the English poor-law unions; and he must express his
regret that the Government had not stated explicitly,
what measures of a remedial character they would in-
troduce for Ireland, while at the same time he thought
that they should adopt some measure for the more effec-
tual recovery of poor-law arrears in that country.
Sir G. GREY must admit that the Hon. Gentleman
had called the attention of the House to a subject of great
importance ; bat with respect to those details of the
operation of the poor-law into which he had entered,
and which he thought were fit subjects for reference in
a Committee, it would be more convenient for the dis-
patch of public business to abstain from following him
through the consideration of those details, especially as
he (Sir G. Grey) agreed with him in thinking that they
would be much better submitted to the investigation of a
Committee. There were one or two points, however,
in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman to which he
would shortly advert. The first paint was with regard
to the collection of the arrears of rates; and he had to
state on this subject that a collector had been sent out
to see to the collection of rates, and his return was that
a considerable portion of those rates had been uncol-
lected, not from any inability to pay them, but from un-
willingness, and from an evasion of the law, where the
law had not been enfdrced against these parties.
Mr. SADLIER—From destitution.
Sir GEORGE GREY—He was afraid that the
remark he had made was applicable to many
who were able to pay ; and he only hoped, if the
Hon. Gentleman knew of cases of that kind, that
he would place those cases in the hands of the Poor-
law Commissioners. He was afraid, however, it would
be found that there was, in many instances, an indispo-
sition to pay the rates. With regard to the commission,
the Hon. Gentleman opposite had made many remarks,
and he had brought forward many instances to show that
the original distribution of the unions was not on a
uniform principle. In that he agreed with him—(Hear,
bear)—and it was in consequence of that opinion that
he had agreed to the appointment of the Boundary
Commission. When the motion of the Hon. Member

for Portarlington was last session disposed of he (Sir G.
Grey) stated that a commission was to be appointed;
and no also stated the same thing to him and a deputa-
tion of Irish gentlemen previous to that motion being
brought on.—(Hear.) That commission had most
diligently applied itself to all those details to which the
Hon. Gentleman opposite had adverted, and they had
transmitted a report to the Government, though the
appendices and maps would not be delivered for a short
titne to come. He would not enter upon a detail
of all the matters contained in that report, but would
only state from recollection the tendency of the re-
commendations which it contained. The report had
been referred to the Poor law Commissioners of Ireland
in order that they might fully consider the propriety of
carrying out its recommendations with as little delay as
possible. And when he said "carrying out" its recom-
mendations, he was nut to be understood as meaning
that they were to be carried out in all particulars, or
that they could be so ; but, with respect to the union
workhouses, he believed that they could follow the
views embraced in the report, and that they were
anxious to correct, as far as possible, the errors which
had been made in the general division of Ireland.—
(Hear.) Ho believed the commissioners did not recom-
mend any alteration in the unions of Ulster ; but in
other parts of Ireland they proposed that the principle
of those unions should be adopted ; and therefore the
tendency of the report was to alter the division of the
unions in the other parts of Ireland.—(Hear.) As to
electoral divisions, he could not hold out the hope,,that
the commissioners were favourable to the views held
by some Hon. Gentlemen ; but the tendency certainly
was to diminish the area of taxation on the principle
more than once stated to the House by himself and others
though not in a way that must necessarily lead to great
evils, by reducing the area of taxation to the extent ad-
vocated by some Hon. Members connected with Ireland.
—(Hear.) He would not further enter upon the subject
now ; but he hoped that the report of the commissioners
would tend much to break the labours of the Committee
about to be appointed. As to the questions put by the
Hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), if he
were to answer all those questions and refer to all the
points noticed by him, he might as well produce at once
the Bill which it was hoped they would be able to
bring forward. He would not now occupy the time of
the House by entering into detail, but he might state
that the Government would not go into this inquiry
with any intention of impairing the great principles
upon which the Poor-law of Ireland was founded,
or of altering the principles upon which relief was
given. He understood an Hon. Gentleman opposite to
ask whether the Government meant to confine relief
to the workhouses, and to do away with the
system of outdoor relief. He (Sir G. Grey) begged to
inform the Hon. Gentleman that the Government enter-
tained no such intention.—(Hear, hear.) Their object
was to facilitate the operation of the law, while, at the
same time, they kept in view the great object the law
was framed to accomplish, and which hecould not admit
it had failed to effect—namely to avert starvation from
the Irish people. He believed that, but for the amended
poor-law, there would, during the recent period of dis-
tress, have been a mach greater degree of suffering
amongst the people of Ireland.
Mr. H. HERBERT observed, that there was great
difference of opinion on this subject, and he feared that
the proposed Committee would continue their sittings
during the whole session without arriving at any practi-
cal result. A number of the Irish Members, of whom he
was one, had an interview with the Home Secretary last
year, and pressed upon him a diminution of the area of
taxation; but this suggestion, although made by men
practically acquainted with the state of Ireland, and
whose opinions should have been entitled to consider-
ation, was not adopted. Ho believed that by energy,
perseverance, and determination on the part of the landed
proprietors, a poor-law might work well in Ireland; and
that, although under any circumstances there must be a
severe struggle, the difficulties to be encountc red were
not so insuperable as had been represented.—(Hear. )
Sir L. O'BRIEN considered that the Government
ought to have proceeded with legislation on this subject
at once, and expressed a hope that such measures as
might be deemed expedient would be submitted to Par-
liament 'without any unnecessary delay.
Mr. MONSELL said that the great difficulty in the
part of Ireland with which he was connected arose from
the flight of those tenant-farmers who possessed capital,
and the cosequent danger that a large portion of the !and
in that district might be thrown out of cultivation. He
(lid not object to the appointment of this
effecting many
he thought they might be the means of let trustedct thating
important alterations in the poor-law. I
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