The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-15 00:00:00

IRELAND.

DUBLIN, BfAIICH 13

POOR-LA WS —PUBLIC MEETING.—(THIS DAY.)
In pursuance of a requisition, the Lord Mayor called a meeting of
the Nobility, gentry, and, Merchants of this city, to be held at the
Mansion House, for the purpose of considering the provisions of the
Poor-law Bill, now before the Legislature, and forwarding suitable peti-
tions on the subject. The meeting was very numerous and highly
respectable.

The LORD MAYOR having taken the Chair,
JOHN D. LATOUCHE, Esq, proceeded to say, that he conceived that the
Bill now before Parliament was fraught with evil to the middle, and,
indeed, to the poorer classes.
Sir GEO*GE COCKBURN did not think that any petition to the, House
of Commons would have the least eireot. He thought with Mr. O'Con.
nell that the Bill was incapable of improvement. It Ought to be thrown
out altogether.

Mr. fATOUCHE then moved a resolution to the effect, that the meet.
ing were of opinion that a Poor-law for the relief of the sick, infirm, and
aged, should be adopted.
Mr. High Sheriff JONES seconded the motion.
Mr. ATKINSON spoke at some length in opposition to the opinions
stated by Mr. Latouche and Sir G. Cockburn.
Mr. DIXON contended that the 1311 k now under discussion was a fla-
grant and unjust attack upon the property of the country. The land-
lords had a right to complain of this measure; it would operate against
them as an er post facto law, leaving them still subject to all their pre-
sent incumbrances, and taxing their narrow incomes with one-half of
this rate.

Mr. L. CROSTIMAIT was of opinion that the Bill, as it stood, was not
such as they had reason to dread. About forty years ago the Legislature
passed a law calculated to relieve the poor of Ireland ; in consequence
of that law the Mendicity Association was established in the city of
Dublin, but he regretted to say that tho spirit of that measure was not
acted upon in the manner which it ought. It was an extraordinary fact
that up to the present time little or nothing had been done towards for.
ming an established and certain mode of relieving the poor.—(Hear.)
He considered that the Bill wis really a good one, and well calculated
to effect the goad which he hopen to see follow from a Poor-law.—
(Hear, hear.) He moved an amendment to the resolution, " That
the Bill now before Parliament was calculated to relieve the aged and
infirm."

A Gentleman rose to second the motion; but so many gentlemen
spoke against it that

Mr. CROSTIIWAIT withdrew that amendment, and moved "That a
Poor Law for the relief of the really destitute was necessary for Ireland."
Mr. O'MALLEY would second the motion.
Lord MILTOWN said that he would also second the amendment of
Mr. Crosthwait.

Mr. LATOCCIIE said, that he would agree to the amendment going to
provide for the " destitute," but he wished to see the two classes to
whom he had alluded provided for in a different manner.
Mr. Caosm WAIT Was proceeding to reply to the objections offored to
the bill, when

Mr. Sheriff QUINTON said that ha considered Mr. Crosthwait out of
order ty urging objections to anything rtot referred to in the resolution
before the meeting.
Lord MILTOIYN said that, connected as he was with the city of Dublin
by birth, connexion and property, he could not allow a meeting on such
a subject as the present to pass off without being present.—(Hear, hear.)
The amendment of Mr. Crosthwait came nearer to his view of the sub-
ject than the direct resolution of Mr. Latouche, and be would vote for it
in preference. With reference to the Bill, he felt satisfied that it was
not calculated to give that relief which he hoped to see extended to all
classes requiring it. Mr. Latouche's resolution would only give relief
to the infirm, whereas, the amendment went to give it to all who were
destitute; with the latter he fully concurred, but, as to the Bill now un-
der discussion, it was not that would give satisfactory relief; shutting
people up in workhouses was not the proper means of relieving a numer-
ous suffering poor.—(Hear, hear.)

BIRMING:IAM said he would wish to see such a measure carried
as would enable hint, as a magistrate, to say to a man who applied for
relief, " there is work for you at so much a_day." This would be the
proper manner for affording relief.

The Rev. Mr. O'MALLEY was of opinion that if the Legislature
stopped short, and only gave relief to the sick and the aged, it would be
no Poor Law Bill at all ; it would be merely an act of charity, with
none of the seeds of the ulterior amelioration which they all hoped to
see introduced into th• country. He did aot think that the workhouses
would be places of iniquity and punishment, but purely houses of cos--
rcction and improvement. He concluded by saying that he did not
think a better Bill could be proposed for effecting the relief of the poor
of Ireland.

Mr. M`Cumacif spoke at considerable length, and with great energy
and clearness stated his objections to the proposed Bill.
The Loan MAYOR put the amendment, which was negatived.
The original resolution was then carried.
General COCXBUIiN moved a resolution to the effect, that " That the
Poor-law Bill now before Parliament was totally unfit for Ireland."
Mr.•LATovcuc would not agree to the resolution just proposed, as he
considered that such amendments might be made in the Bill as would
make it agreeable to all parties.

•
The Right Honourable Mr. SAURIN suggested that the words " as it-
now stands," should be inserted in the resolution.

A discussion ensued, in which Mr. Dixon, Mr. Birmingham, Rev.
Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Sisson, and other gentlemen took part, respecting
various points contained in the Bill, when it was agreed to make sonic
verbal alterations in the resolution, to the effect that employment should
be encouraged so as to he the means of relieving the people.
It was then moved by Lord MILTOWN and seconded by Mr. P.
PURCELL, " That a system of public employment for the able-bodied
poor of Ireland should be provided in a separate bill, and by passed
cotemporancously with the bill for the relief of the sick, aged, and
infirm." This resolution passed unanimously.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN again moved his resolution, that the bill now
before Parliament was totally unfit for Ireland.

Mr. FLBTCGBR, after stating his objections to the bill at length, con-
cluded by seconding the motion.
Mr. POLLOCK would oppose the resolution. It was one that neither
the Rev. Gentleman (Mr. O'Malley) nor hitnselfcould vote for, inasmuch
as it condemned altogether the measure now before Parliament.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN, in consequence of the obser.ations just
made, would strike out the word " totally" for the purpose of obtaining
unanimity.
Mr. HIOGINGBOTOM handed in an amendment on the resolution of
Sir George.

Mr. CROSTLIWAIT also desired to move an amendment. He wished
to impress upon the meeting, that the Bill, if passed in its present state,
would not effect that immediate inconvenience and expense which had
been so much urged against it. No county need adopt the measure at
all if the people did not require it. As to building s• many work-
houses, in the first instance, such would not be the case—old barracks
and other buildings would be taken kept up at the least possible ex-
pense. He continued at length to advocate the Bill.

Lord Mwrows: voted for the amendment of the Gallant General, be-
cause the relief intended by the Bill would not come for a considerable
time. He called upon the friends of the measure to suspend their haste
to see this measure carried, because it would not affect the slightest in-
jury or delay to the poor.
Mr. CROSTIINVAIT then moved that a Committee be appointed to take
into consideration all the provisions of the Bill now before Parliament,
with a view of making such amendments as might be considered adapted
to improve and assist its workings.
Lord CLONCURRY seconded the amendment proposed by Mr. Crosth.
wait. His Lordship spoke in favour of the Bill, which, he admitted,
required modification.
Professor BUTT opposed it in a speech of some length.
Mr. GREY supported it.

The question was then put front the Chair and the original resolu-
:ion was carried.

The meeting then separated.

LICENSED VICTUALLERS.

Yesterday a general meeting of the trade was held at the
Crown and Anchor, in the Strand, for the t urpose of taking
into consideration the resolutions now under the considera-
tion of the Magistrates of Middlesex, relative to the Licensed
Victuallers.

The meeting was exceedingly well attended, being one of
the largest of the body we have ever seen.
Mr. Jon): WELLS, Governor of the Incorporated Society of
Licensed Victuallers, was unanimously called to the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN called on the Secretary to read the adver-
tisement convening the meeting, which having been accord-
ingly read, he observed that the advertisement stated that none
but Licensed Victuallers could be present—he was informed
that there were some gentlemen in the room who were not
Licensed Victuallers ; but as there was nothing secret in their
proceedings those gentlemen might remain, but could not be
allowed to take any part in their proceedings.---( Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN; addressing the meeting, then said they
were all aware that they had met on business of great im-
portance to the trade in which they were engaged. He hoped
every gentleman who addressed the meeting would be al-
lowed to do so without interruption, and that none but Li-
censed Victuallers would take any part in the proceedings.—
( Hear, hear.) Mr. Wire, their solicitor, would read the re-
port and resolutions now under consideration of the Middlesex
Magistrates.

Mr. WIRE read the report and resolutions, which appeared
in the Morning Advertiser on Tuesday.
Mr. VOUSLEY, jun., addressed the meeting, and said a res;).
lotion had been placed in his hands, which he cordially_ begged,leave to propose for the adoption of the meeting. [Mr. V.
here read the first resolution.] Upon learning that such
resolutions as they heard read had been proposed for the
consideration of the Magistrates of Middlesex, the Pro-
tntion Society lost no tune in calling attention to the
subject, and considering themselves the representative of the
Licensed Victuallers of the metropolis, and the National
Association the representative of the. Licensed Victuallers or
the country, they conferred together, and agreed to call the
present meeting. To some of the resolutions submitted to
the Middlesex iMagistrates there could be no objection; but
others would be highly detrimental to their trade. To
Licensed Victuallers it would require no argument to show
that the Magistrates already possessed nmple • powers for the
security of the public, and that there was no necessity for
clea,ing their houses at eleven o'clock, which, in many cases,
would trench on public conveuience. Such a regulation
could not apply generally, as, from the valiety of employments,
twelve o'clock in sonic neighbourhoods was not later titan ten
o'clock in others ; therefore it was better to leave that matter
as it is at present.—( Hear.) The Magistrate has power at
present to decide that keeping open late is disorderly, and to
punish it by a fine; but he had i.tso power to take into consi-
deration all the cireunistenees--4.he locality, and the wants of
the neighbourhood. At his house in Bermondsey,
o'clock was as late as one o'clock in the Hz: market, in the
neighbourhood of the theatres.---( Hear, hear.") To make one
rule for all localities would be to lay the trade open to in-
formers as it did before. —( Hear.) Another evil consequence
of the resolutions would be, that by cocrc:ng Licensed Victual_
lers, they would drive much of the respectability now in the
trade out of it ; and would effectually prevent tntr,,,,b respecta-
bility from coming into it.—( Hear.) If 1,-,,gulatiot:s were
made ever so astringent, and a pplii.,eman kept at every
door, still much would depend on the respectability of the Li..
censed Victualler, AO tli,2 k-irqert,i he had al .tae, and, Ills

' standing amongst his neighbours—those were the best security
for his conduct.—C Hear, hear.) The resolutions say that
houses may be licensed lithe Magistrates to keep open all
night and sell ready-made tea and coffee. For what purpose
would they sell the ready-made tea and coffee? Was it for the
profit they would make by selline. it ? No ; but for a cloak for
selling spirits and defrauding theb revenue, not merely by not
paying license, but by selling spirits illicitly distilled.—( Hear.)
Oh ! it would be said, the police and excise would put all that
to rights. They could not do it. It was notorious that the
beer-shops sold spirits to a considerable extent.—(Hear.)
The policemen would, no doubt, do their duty ; but if they
stepped oat of their way it required exertion and some ex-
pense; and it was notorious that in nine cases out of ten, if
they gut a conviction, the poverty of' the party would pre-
vent their recovering any penalty. The party convicted had
only to take down his name, which was immediately suc-
ceeded by the name of another person who was not liable. Ho
was not assuming that Licensed Victuallers, morally speak-
ing, were better men than those who sell ready-made tea
and coffee; but the one man had property at stake; he had
one or two thousand pounds engaged in a way which. he was
not allowed to transfer if there was any excise pioceid:ng
against him, and which must be answerable for sny penalty.
—( Hear.) Should he be put in competition with a man who
had nothing at stake, but had every means and inducement
to evade paying the penalty? The one should go to• a Ma-
gistrate to transfer his property, the other had only to t eke
down his board and evade any penalty. How was it possible
they could be put in competition ?—(Hear.) The Bth reso-
lution said, " Victuallers supplying strong beer, wine, and
spirituous liquors to persons while in a state of intoxication,
or who have drunk so much liquor on the •premises as to be
likely to be intoxicated, be not entitled to payment for liquors
so furnished ; and that if they have procured payment for it,
they may be compelled to refund the same on a summary pro-
cess."—(A laugh.) Such a resolution could not be read with-
out exciting a smile.--( Hear.) He regretted that it could be
seriously received by the Magistrates. It showed a want of
information. Who could say when a man had drunk so
much as to be likely to be intoxicated? One man would make
a tool of himself with half a pint of wine ; another could
drink two bottles and be nothing the worse.—( Hear, hear.)
Men's constitutions were not the same. Suppose four men
drank together—three would be perfectly sober, the fourth
would be drunk ; he was to summon the Licensed Victualler
the next day—declare he had got drunk in his House, and
the Victualler was to be compelled to refund by a kummaty
process. lie wished to found their objections to the re-
solutions on facts, and he hoped that on a proper representa-
tion being made to the Magistrates they would see that the
resolutions propounded for their adoption were unneces-
sary, impracticable, and uncalled for.—( Hear, hear.) Mr_
Vousley concluded by moving the first resolution.—(See
Advertisrment.)

Mr. J. WELLS seconded the resolution, and sincerely
hoped it would be unanimously adopted, and would tend very
much to the benefit of the trade.—(llear, bear.) He was
quite satisfied with the pi otection the trade now has from the
Niagistrates—they were their best protectors.—( Hear, hear.)
The Magistrates were divided in opinion on the resolutions,
and gave ample time for their consideration by the trade;
and he was satisfied the Magistrates would be happy to re-
ceive a deputation from the trade on the subject.—(Hear.)
He had an interview with some of them, when it was said
the object of the resolutions was to establish coffee-shops,
twenty of which would be occupied by one man, who had
nothing to lose, as was the case now with many of the beer-
shops.—(Hear.) The Magistrates, he was satisfied, would
be happy to protect the trade.
The bIAIRMAN put the resolution, which was carried un-
animously.
Mr. HIBCLE said it devolved upon him, as a member of
the Committee of the National Association, to move the se-
cond resolution. Beer was the great trade in the country,
and if the meeting knew the manner in which the Licensed
Victuallers were carrying out their view, in the country,
they would all feel pleasure in supporting them.—( Hear.)
The resolutions read that day did not emanate from the parties
fur the benefit of the trade. Mr. Barber Beaumont was a
tec-totailer. If he preferred wa'e:, lie might take it, but
others should be allowed to take the drink they preferred.
—( Hear, hear.) He rejoiced to say there were many Ma-
gi,trates determined not to support such resolutions.—
( Ilear, hear.) It was part and parcel of an insidious de-
sign, that was not mentioned—it was like blowing up a
ship for fear of the water. The Licensed Victuallers had
no fear of the Magistrates. He called on Mr. Barber Beau-
mont to prove his facts. So far from drunkenness being
greatly increased, it was well known that it was at twenty
per cent. discount. —( Hear, hear, hear.) In the parish of
Marylebone there were but 24 naughty boys out of 1,000,
and their offences were not serious. So far from Licensed
Victuallers: encouraging drunkenness, he appealed to them
all when a drunken man came into their house did they hot
feel uncomfortable ; was not the question they asked them-
selves, how can. we get him out without a disturbance ? He
wished the gentleman who drew up the resolutions was com-
pelled to keep a house one month, and then be would see
whether he could do it better. —( A laugh.) This was the
time when the Licensed Victuallers could prove by argument
that the powers they possess were for the benefit of the public
at large. When the Beer Bill was before Parliament it was
said it was to do away with monopoly—some of the brewers
said they could not defend monopoly, and well the Duke of'
Wellington told him out of his own mouth that be was satisfied
the Beer Bill was a failure.—( Hear, hear.) Witb. respect to
shutting up on Sundays, the Archbishop of Canterbury said
to him, he only wished them to keep shut unto. one o'clock,
and then open that the working man might get his glass of ale;
he took his wine, and God forbid he should prevent the working
man taking his glass of Hear. 1 When the head of
the Church was so favourable to the enjoys-cent of the working
man, he thought they might go before tlre Magistrates without
fear, and call on them also to support their interests. He con-
cluded by moving the second resolution.
Mr. FRANCIS WARD said he felt great pleasure in seconding
the resolution, and concurred in every thing that had been
said by the preceding speakers.—( Hear, hear.)
The resolution was put from the Chair, and unanimously
agreed to.

-Mr. BINGLEY said he felt great pleasare in moving the
third resolution. The preceding speakers had so amply de-
veloped the case of the trade that they had lef'z but little for
him to add. They all felt that the resolutions of the Magis-
trates were founded on erroneous principles and misinforma-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) When they were proposed to the Ma-
gistrates thoy were founded on the supposed bad conduct
of Victuallers in encouraging drunkenness in their houses.
Ile hoped they would send a deputation to the Magistrates
that would show them that the conduct of Victuallers was the
very contrary.—(Hear.) It was allowed by the Magistrates
that good order prevailed last year, and that there were but
few complaints—( Hear.) If the resolutions tool: effect,
they would degrade the trade. The sixth resolution left a
scope-goat—that any person licensed to sell exciseable
liquors, when the sale of spirituous liquors did not form a
prominent part of the business, might supply ready-mado
tea and coffee on the premises on Sunday mornings—that
would lead to great caviling, and give the iniormers great
work and profit.—( Hear.) He hoped the trade would unite
hand and heart, and meet from time to time, to show tho
Magistrates that they were not to be prgt on a level with
coffer-;hops and beer.shops.—(Hear.) As Mr. Vouseley had
said, the party's respectability was the litst security for good
conduct.—( Hear.) He hoped the day was not far distant
when beer-shops would be prevented from selling beer to be
drunk on the premises. He hoped all would. unite in support
of their common interest.

Mr. \V. TAYLOR said he felt great pleasure iu seconding the
resolution.

The Resolution was then put and unanimously agreed to.
Mr. SOUTIIALL said he bad great pleasure is proposing a
resolution (the 4th) for the appointment of Ii deputation to
wait on the Magistrates. He was confident the deputation
would go forth fearlessly and temperately, and perform their
duty to the entire satisfaction of the trade. He thought the
deputation should be named at ttiat meeting, which would give
it greater weight. He should abstain from any further ob-
servation, and move the resolution.

Mr. Hoot) seconded the resolution, which was ea:lied un-
animously.

Mr. VO' USLEY, in moving that the resolutions bq published
in the Morning Advertiser and Sun Newspavz.rs, said he
trusted they would all see the necessity of e.,ipporting the
Protection Society as a centre to rally round, and the Metro-
politan trade, by uniting with the National A.lsociation, would
give additional security to both. They were made the victims
of experiments—every Session there was some individual who
made an experiment on their trade, th.e tendency of which was
to injure them ; they should all unite for their mutual
protection.

The resolution was unanimon.sly agreed to.
Mr. WALTER ("aid he had a pleasant duty to perform in mov-
ing a resolution in s‘hich thcv would all most cordially concur.
They were perfectly sensible of the ability and good feeling
of their exerAlent Chairman, who was always ready to give Ins
efficient support to every measure for the benefit of the trade.
hear, bear.) He concluded by moving a vote of thanks to
the Chairman.
Mr. MonoAN seconded the motion. The ("induct of their
worthy Chair Man gave great satisfaction to the whole trade.
The resolution was passed with. great apriause.
The CHAIRMAN returned thanks for th,r great kindness
in so favourably estimating his humble services. He felt
proud at presiding over so no:ailerons am). respectable a meet-
ing. All present must feet it to 'ne so. He was convinced
they would not regret having attended that day ; and he felt
confident they would succe,,d in the just and reasonable ob-
ject they had' in bear.)
The meeting then separated.

. .
ROCHDALE FLANNEL 'MARKET, NIONDAY,
Marx 12.—The market leas been du!l to-day, and less bu-
siness has been done ; but prices has been dune, but latices
have been steady. The wool market also continues flat, and
the manufacturers buy mcrely for inuncditzte use.-21froichester
Guardian.

THE -HA N D-LOOM. 'WEAVING DISTIUCTS.--
We are glad to learn that, in consequence of '.ho impetus
riven to trade by the opening of the canals, the hand-leant
weaving trade of Padihare, Colne, Burnley, &c., liar been
somewhat more brisk, and that, generally speaking, the
people are employed. The wages, • 'however, are low ; 0;;1
the weavers are rapidly beginning to make the discovery, that
their trade, having to compete with steam p4mer, is nut, and
eannr.t be, a remunerating occupation.—Preston Chronicle.
STATE OF TRADE.—We are sorry to say that
icings do not improve; on the contrary, everything is very
flat ; and the lace trade, especially during the last ten days,
has been nearly at a y
stand. We have. heard, and we fear from
too good authority to be discredited, that a Lill been in-
this b.! true, it
ptreorduceeendt. inontofothreeigAnmtenraicnaunralcetguirseladtuEricik, imposing. a dut of 25,
will be a heavy blow to blond laces, and to the silk. liosiory and
glove trades ; which, tog-ether, form so import sot a portion of
Nottingham manufacture.—Nettinghuntßevitio.