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London, England, 1831-03-16 00:00:00

tion, their Lordships might go on debating during the
term of their natural lives. But if the Noble Earl had a
specific motion to propose, then, indeed, the case was dif-
ferent, and to that course he should not offer any objection.
The Earl of FIFE had a specific motion in his pocket,
and remarked that it was natural enough for a lawyer to
exclaim against those who intertneddled with what they
considered their own province. After intimating his im-
pression that the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to de-
sire to bring their Lordships down to a level with the rest
of the community, he concluded by stating that he would
abstain from bringing forward his motion on that even-
ing, in consideration of the probable impatience of Noble
Lords to get home to dinner. On a future evening, when
he should find a more patient audience, it was his inten-
tion to renew the strictures which lie was obliged some-
what abruptly to discontinue.
The Bill was accordingly r.'ad a first time, and ordered
to be printed.

Lord CARBERY inquired of the Noble Secretary for
the Home Department, whether he intended on Friday to
move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Sub-letting
Act altogether, or only a portion of it.

Lord MELBOURNE replied, that it was his object to
repeal the Sub-letting Act altogether. But he did not
mean to weaken the principle of 'the Bill; on the con-
trary, he rather desired to enforce it.
Adjourned at a Quarter to Seven.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 15.
In consequence of three Election Committees, the Pon-
tefract, Maidstone, and Petersfield, having been ballotted
for, and there being besides a call of the House, the gal-
lery was not opened until half-past five o'clock.
A1r..0. GORE presented petitions from Carnarvon and
Oswestry, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform.
He took that opportunity to state, that though he was open
to the necessity which existed for some Reform, he could
not go the length of the plan proposed by Ministers.
Mr. B. CARTER presented similar petitions from the
Corporation and inhabitants of Portsmouth and the ad-
joining parishes, approving of the Ministerial plan of Re-
form; and also a petition from the ship-owners of Ports-
mlnith, against the intended alteration of the timber duties.

Mr. HODGES presented a petition front Cranbrook, in
Kent, to the same rffect.

Mr. O'CONNOR DON presented a petition from Roe.
common, Boyle, and Navan, against the misappropriation
of the funds intended for the education of the general poor
of Ireland, without religious distinction, by an exclusive of
high church party, called the Kildare-street Society. He
was a willing and experienced witness of the anxiety of
the Roman Catholic peasantry of Ireland to bestow on
their children the benefits of education, and could not but
lament that such a praiseworthy disposition should be
completely marred by the proselytizing system on which
that society acted.—(Hear. )
Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a petition signed by
1,160 inhabitants of the parish of St. George, Westmin-
ster, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform. He
was glad that his anticipations respecting the spirit of ap-
probation with which that plan would be hailed by the
reforming public had been fully realized, and that a perfect
unanimity as to its great advantages to the country pre-
vailed among his constituents. The Hon. Member pre-
sented a similar petition from the parish of St. Margaret,
Westminster, signed by upwards of SOO persons, also cor-
dially approving of the measure ; among the signatures to
which was the name of the truly illustrious and venerable
Jeremy Bentham.—( Hear.)
Sir F. BURDETT felt himself bound to express his
cordial concurrence with the petitioners respecting the
plan of Reform now in progress in that House. That
that plan met the just expectations of the people, was evi-
dent from the unanimity of feeling towards it out of doors,
and it was sufficient to mention, that among its approvers
was Mr. Bentham, to gainsay any insinuation that it was
either wild or visionary. The authority and integrity of
each a man sanctioning the measure, ought to satisfy all
reformers that the measure was calculated to attain the
object they all had in view. _

Ur. HOBHOUSE presented a petition in-favour of the
Select Vestry Bill, signed by 1,700 inhabitants of the
parish of St. James; and also from the inhabitants of St.
Martin's-in-the-fields, and St. Giles, Bloomsbury,—the
last petition signed by 700 persons.
Mr.• HOBHOUSE presented a petition from Maccles-
field, in favour of the Bill for regulating the treatment of
children in cotton and silk manufactories.

After a few words from Mr. FYLER, the petition was
ordered to he printed.
Mr. LITTLETON presented two similar petitions from
places in Staffordshire.

Mr. ELLICE presented a petition from Coventry, in
favour of the Bill brought into that Howe by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, to reform the representation of the people
in Parliament. The Hon. Member could not refrain from
stating, that the way in which the petition had been got
up was moat honourable to the character of the working
classes of Coventry. In consequence of some allusions
that had been made to the injury which the Reform Bill
would inflict upon the weavers of Coventry, by depriving
them of their franchise, an idea had been entertained that
they would not be very favourable to the Bill. Imme-
diately the report had been spread, the petition which he
had now the honour to present was got up, and in less
than six hours it was signed by between 5,000 and 6,000
persons. He had also another petition, signed by the
masters and certain apprentices in the silk trade, who, by
the Bill, would be deprived of the right of voting, which
the latter persons would otherwise have obtained by their
indentures. The petitioners prayed that the Reform Bill
might afford protection to persons so situated.
Mr. FYLER bore testimony to the enthusiasm with
which the people of Coventry had received the measure
for Re'orm.

Mr. HUNT had been requested to support the petitions,
and which he did most freely. The people of Coventry
had been strongly in favour of the ballot ; but since Mi-
nisters had brought in their measure of Reform, they were
unanimous in their approbation of the Bill. The people
of Coventry had formerly intrusted a petition to the Hon.
Member opposite (Mr. Ellice) praying for election by
ballot, but they had withdrawn it when they found that
Ministers were bringing forward their measure.
Mr. ELLICE said, that the petition alluded to was not
signed by one-third of the names attached to the first of
the petitions he now held in his hand.

Sir R. PEEL believed that the petitions now presented
would show, that of the people of Coventry, those who
were to retain their privileges were in favour of the Re-
form Bill, but the classes that had only an inchoate right
called out " Pray protect us, and do not deprive us of
that which we should have possessed but for this Bill."
Mr. ELLICE maintained that the latter class of per-
sons were in favour of the measure.

Mr. HUNT had had an opportunity of addressing
6,000 of the people of Coventry, and he could bear testi-
mony to their enthusiasm for Reform and the vote by ballot.
Mr. TYLER knew the people of Coventry better than
the Hon. Member for Preston, and he could assure the
House, that had it not been market day, he would not have
had forty people to hear him.
The petitions were then ordered to be printed.
Mr. LITTLETON presented a petition from the
Chamb,r of Commerce of Stafford, against the renewal of
the East India Company's Charter.

The Hob/. MEMBER then presented two petitions from
bodies of persons employed in the Potteries in Staffordshire,
in favour of the Reform Bill, and stated that the petitions
proceeeded from a population of 68,000 persons, who
were unanimous and enthusiastic in thir gratitude to
Ministers for bringing forward the trlasure.
Mr. KEMP presented a petition from Lewes, in favour
of Reform. The Hon. Member stated, that the measure
had his most hearty concurrence.

Mr. J. SIIELLEY said, that when the petitioners
really understood the nature of the Reform Bill, they would
not he so unanimous in its favour.
Mr. EGERTON presented a petition from Stockport,
in favour of the Reform Bill.
REFORM OF THE REPRESENTATION OF

SCOTLAND.
The LORD-ADVOCATE brought in the Bill to amend
the representation of tie people of Scotland in the Com-
mons House of Parliament.

Upon the SPEAKFit putting the question " That this
Bill be read a first time," the Members present (who were
not very numerous) expressed their assent by a loud cheer.
mr. C. DOUGLAS expressed his acquiescence in the
Bill, and put a question to the Lord-Advocate relative to
the day of the second reading.
Mr. HUME said it would be impossible to dispose of all
the petititions upon Reform before Monday next. He had
twenty-eight petitions to present, all full of enthusiasm for
Reform, and he had not been able to present them. He
thought that a day ought to be set aside to receive the nu-
merous petitions in favour of Reform.
Colonel SIBTIIORPE had many important petitions
upon the subject from Lincoln, and he hoped to have an
opportunity of presenting them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
it desirable that the House should make some arrange-
ments to receive the petitions, and it appeared to him to
be preferable to postpone the ordinary business of the
House to a later hour each evening, rather than meet upon
a Saturday.
Mr. HUNT thought that petitions might be received
every evening up to seven o'clock.
Alderman WAITHMAN bad many petitions upon the

subject, and which he wished to have an opportunity of
presenting.
The LORD ADVOCATE, under the circumstances of
the case, was desirous that the Bill should stand for a se-
cond reading on Fi iday week. He knew that there were
certain gentleman of that part of the country (Scotland)
who were anxious that an opportunity should be given to
the people of Scotland to see the precise nature of the Bill.
For his part, he felt anxious that the fullest means should
be afforded to them, in order that they might be aware of
its general scope and of its details.

Upon the SPEAKER putting the question, that this Bill
be read a first time, one solitary voice, but of a stentorian
character, roared out " No." The ayes were numerous,
and the Bill was read a first time, awl ordered to be
printed. The second reading was fixed for Friday se'nnight.
The SPEAKER then addressed the House, and said
that with respect to presenting petitions, although pro-
longing the hours of each day of the week might be
the means of absorbing a great many of them, this
would not preclude the House sitting for the purpose on
Saturday, if it should be found necessary. He was
grateful for the indulgence which the House was in-
clined to show him, but he had no claim nor incli-
nation to urge that the House should consult his personal
convenience by not sitting on the Saturday. If Satur-
day, however, were not set aside for the purposes of re-
ceiving petitions, he was apprehensive that the attendance
would be confined to those Members who had petitions to
present, although it was necessary that persons who were
wit charged with petitions should he present. If further
time beyond the postponement of the ordinary business
each evening were necessary, the House might ultimately
determine upon sitting on the Saturday.
Mr, HUNT said, that be had observed upon these extra
sittings, that as fast as Members presented their petitions
they walked away.

The conversation here terminated without any resolu•
tion being come to.
SHIPPING INTEREST_TIMBER DUTIES.•

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON rose for the purpose of
presenting a petition regarding the proposed alteration in
the timber duties, and complaining thereof. The petition
was agreed to at a public meeting, one of the most nume-
rous and respectable he had ever attended. It consisted of
the merchants of the city and of the shipowners connected
with the port of London. It was well known that Eng-
land was the only country that imported timber to any
considerable extent, and that previous to 1609 the impor-
tations to this country were all from the Baltic. But in
that year considerable difficulties began to be felt in pro-
curing the usual supply of Baltic timber, owing to the
ports of the Baltic having fallen under French influence ;
the consequence was, that every possible encouragement
was held out to importation of Canadian timber, and
the protection was gradually increased up to 1821—to
such an extent that 606,000 loads of Canadian timber
were no uncommon importation in the course of a year,
being of the value of 2,000,0001., though this country
had been previously in the habit of receiving from the
Baltic not more than 400,000 loads. In this trade, then,
with Canada, a large amount of British capital was em-
barked, until at last there came to be engaged in it
440,000 tons of shipping, and not fewer than 22,000
seamen, little short of the number engaged in the Royal
Navy of England. It was also worthy of observation that
a large emigration took place to the Canadas. In the pe-
riod to which he referred, no fewer than 250,000 persons
emigrated to Canada from the United Kingdom ; and, in
the last year, the number amounted to 30,000. It was,
then, the duty of the House to look at what might be the
situation of persons sent out under the sanction, and
through the encouragement of the Legislature. It was
well known that the winter was: longer there than in
other climates; and it was also known that the emigrants
were, for the most part, engaged during the winter, in the
business of preparing the timber for the English market.
It was, therefore, most unjust to deprive the emigrants of I
that which they were entitled to expect; and the Cana-
dians long settled in the country, of advantages, for the
preservation of which Great Britain was responsible. Be-
sides that, nothing could be more impolitic than to remove
the barrier which Canada presented to the advancing en-
croachments of the United States, which might prove very
serious in the event of another American war. It was
said that the proposed alteration was introduced with a
view to the improvement of the revenue—that it would
effect an improvement to the extent of 600,0001. Now
he really thought that such a sum was nothing at all as
compared with the advantages which must result from the
proposed change. He might be told that the Canadian
timber was the inferior article—that it was worth only
31. 10s. a ton, while the Baltic timber was worth Si. or
5/. ss. But it should be recollected that there were a va-
riety of purposes to which Canadian timber might be ap-
plied, and for which it was quite as fit as any that could
be found ; but in the altered state of things, if the altera-
tion should be persevered in, the people of this country
would be compelled to use Baltic timber, at Si. a ton, for
which Canadian, at 31. 10s., would answer fully as well.
He especially entreated the House to turn its attention to
the immense amount of shipping and of seamen thrown out
of employment by the destruction of the trade with Ca-
nada. In the Baltic trade they might rest assured that no
British ships would be employed. Prussia and Norway
could build vessels for about seven or eight pounds a ton,
and thus evidently become most formidable rivals in
the trade of this country. The fact was, that he believed,
though late, that the eyes of Government were beginning
to be opened, for they felt very sore on the subject—they
went the length of expressing displeasure against the Go-
vernor of a Colony for merely writing a pamphlet, exposing
the real state of the case. The Hon. Member concluded
by moving that the petition be brought up.
Lord ALTHORP, as he was about to bring in the Bill
to which the petition referred' on Friday next, thought it
would be more convenient to discuss the question then.
Mr. SADLER supported the prayer of the► petition. The
House ought to be disfranchised, and no longer deserved
the name of a British House of Commons if it did not attend
to the interest of the ships, commerce, and colonies of the
country.
Sir 111. W. RIDLEY must give his opposition to the
measure of Government, as calculated to destroy the Canada
trade, and ruin the owners of-ships who had embarked in
that trade.

Mr. ATTWOOD said, this was not a question of policy,
but one of right; and before the House decided it ought to
look at the circumstances under which the Canadians had
received this right. It was given to them in ISO 9, when
the junction of Russia with the southern Powers of Europe
threatened to take away our power. It was then that the
Canadians became the means of re-nerving our right arm,
and throwing fresh vigour into our navy. And was this
the time to trust again to Russia, and throw away Canada.
Ile could tell the House that it would be the means of giving
that country to the United States, and of putting us at the
tender mercy of Russia.
Mr. SYKES said that we had never put ourselves
under any pledge to the Canada*, but, on the contrary,
had always avoided so doing. Ile thought that the true
way to benefit our shipping was to endeavour to extend it
in every direction by removing all burthens upon it, and
then he was quite sure that no other country could at-
tempt to compete with this. It was true that we were
bound to support the interest of our colonies, but not se-
parate from our own interest ; and he thought that, were
that the proper opportunity, he could prove to detnonsra-
tion that the supporting the shipping interests and co-
lonial interests of the country bad cost it upwards of a mil-
lion per annum.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN had attended the meet-
ing of the ship-owners, and thought that the case had
been made out as strongly as possible. That, however,
was net necessary to his mind, for the very moment he
had heard the proposition of his Majesty's Government he
had thought that it was most uncalled for and most inju-
dicious. The Canadas took our manufactured goods to
the amount of two millions sterling, while the Norwegian
States took scarcely any, and yet now it was proposed to
take a most material advantage front Canada, and bestow
it upon the Northern States of Europe.
Mr. C. DOUGLAS said, that a petition which had
been presented from Glasgow, took exactly the same view
a the subject as was taken in the petition that had been
presented by the Hon. Alderman.
Mr. SCHONSWAR said a few words, which did not
reach the reporters.
Mr. HART DAVIS also made a few remarks, which
were not distinctly heard in the gallery.
Mr. SHAW had a similar petition to that presented by
the Hon. Alderman from the ship-owners of Dublin. He
was aware that the proposed measure was not to extend to
Ireland, and the ship-owners of that country were grateful
for the consideration of the Government ; but at the same
time they felt that they had common cause with the ship_
owners of this country, and they were apprehensive that
the effect of the measure would be altogether to annihilate
the timber trade of Canada, and throw out of employ-
ment the tonnage now engaged in that trade.
oc Mr. EWART differed in some degree from the Noble
Lord as to the extent to which he proposed to carry his
measure. The tonnage connected with Liverpool, which
was employed in the colonial timber trade, amounted to
about 150,000 tons, while that employed in the Baltic
timber trade was but 18,000—a fact, of itself, sufficient
to show that the interest connected with Canada were of
much more importance than those connected with Norway.
Mr. WARBURTON said, that the complaints which
were being made now were but reiterations of _Jtl (4: made

in 1821 ; while the fact was, that the timber trade with
Canada since that time bad increased in the proportion of
eight to five. When he remembered that the export of
timber from Canada was chiefly in consequence of the
canals and public works that were going on there, and
that it only amounted to 500,000/., while the imports were
two millions, he could not think that their timber trade
was of so much importance to them as was pretended.
Mr. G. ROBINSON supported the prayer of the pe-
tition. The proposed alteration would inflict a serious
injury on the whole Canada trade, and, as the Hon. Mem-
ber for Bridport admitted, it would destroy the half of the
shipping engaged in that trade. He was not so much
astonished to hear the Hon. Member make that admission,
as to hear the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, on the night he brought forward his Budget, calmly
and plainly admit that his plan might injure the half of the
shipping engaged in that trade--that was jest the half of
1,611 ships, and of 10,000 seamen out of employment.
He thought the duty of Government was to protect and
preserve, but it was in this instance only destroying the
best interests of the country. It was intended also to
encourage the Northern Powers of Europe, those very
Powers which in 1807 we had sent a large expedition to
destroy. The present trade with Canada was altogether a
British trade, \ under the controul of the British Govern-
ment, and he must protest against breaking that up to
make us again exclusively dependent on Powers that had
been our enemies, and might be again.: He was surprised
to hear the Hon. Member for Liverpool support the pro-
posed measure, though he confessed he did not under-
stand the reasons which the Hon. Member gave for it.
Perhaps he did not know to what extent Liverpool was
concerned in this trade. He begged, therefore, to inform
the House that in 1818 Liverpool had 218 ships, measur-
ing 71,000 tons, engaged in the Canada trade, and in
1831 that town had 321 ships, measuring 106,000 tons,
employed in that trade. There was another point of view
under which the subjeet ought to be considered. Canada
was a receptacle for our surplus population;' but the em-
ployment they could find there depended very much on the
sale of the timber, of which the land had to be cleared.—
This measure, then, would destroy the market for Canada
timber—it would destroy the lumber trade, and put it
out of the power of the Canadas to take our population,
or to give them any employment.
Mr. W. WHITAIORE wished timber, corn, sugar, and
all other things, to be purchased at the cheapest market,
and conceived that all the resources of the country would
be augmented if there was no monopoly given to any in-
terest or as to any commodity. What the Hon. Member
called protection, he called destruction.

An HON. Mums., who spoke on tha Ministerial side,
could not concur in the proposed measure, as he was not
prepared at one blow to lay by ene-fifth of our shipping.
Mr. GOULBURN thought the great number of re-
spectable independent merchants who had attended at the
meeting in the city, and who were men of as much inte-
grity, good sense, and as great talents, as ever assembled,
should make the Noble Lord doubt the propriety of his
plan. For himself, he had certainly several doubts con-
c.rning it, but as it was not yet before the House in all
its details, he would wait till it was before he entered
into the discussion.

Sir M. S. STEWART said that, as the discussion of
the question was deferred to another night, he should only
I now state that he had four important petitions to present,
which spoke the sentiments of the whole of the shipping
trade of the west of Scotland. He implored his Right
Hon. Friends, the Members of his Majesty's Government,
to reconsider the subject, and to give up the proposed al-
terations in the rate of foreign and colonial timber duties,
which, if persisted in, would, in the west of Scotland,
lead to the abandonment of a large tonnage, to the anni-
hilation of much employed capital, and to severe distress
amont many classes dependent for subsistence on the
equipment of the British colonial shipping of the Clyde.
Lord LOUGHBOROUGH was surprised at the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board a.
Trade, having observed that this measure "was a boon to
the landed interest. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew
very little of the landed interest, if he thought they would
accept a boon which went to the sacrifice of some other
interest.

Mr. POULETT THOMSON explained. He con-
ceived it a great boon to all classes, with a partill and
temporary sacrifice of one interest which had been over
protected.

- Mr. HUME said that the plan of protecting colonies
and trade had directed much of the national capital into
injurious channels. It was not fair to look at this subject
by itself: it ought to be looked at in conjunction with the
repeal of the coal tax, which was a part of the measure,
and was a great general benefit. It was their duty to
look at the general interest, not at the interest of particu-
lar classes, and in this view the Noble Lord had proposed
an alteration in the timber duties, in order to he enabled
to repeal the coal tax. No advantage of that kind could
be obtained, perhaps, without some partial sacrifice ; but
he believed that the proposed change would be further
beneficial, by supplying the community with good timber
at a cheaper rate.
Lord WM. POW LETT could not concur in the views
of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. We had already ex-
pended five millions in the Canadas, and of what use was
that if we were not to encourage our trade with those co-
lonies ?

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT deprecated the discussion
on such an incidental subject as presenting a petition.
The most extraordinary argument he had heard was that
of the Noble Lord, who seemed to think it was quite suf-
ficient to excuse the continuation of an evil—that a great
evil had previously been inflicted. We had paid largely
to encourage the Canadas, and, therefore, we were to con-
tinue to pay. If we were to have colonies, he hoped that
they would be better managed, and be an advantage and
not an expence to the country. The shipping and the
commercial interests had great advantages in all such
questions. The Members could easily meet and combine,
and so they procured that protection which was monopoly
against the rest of the community. We were now forced
to use bad timber, and pay dear for it, and the measur,t,
as he understood it, was the first step towards allowing us
to have good timber at a reasonable rate. At present we
were bliged to employ bad timber in all the uses to which
timbV was put. Jr. his opinion, therefore, it would be
better to give the shipping interest the 1,000,000/. a year
we now paid, to encourage that trade, than to pay it and
have bad timber into the bargain. He was sure, however,
that no person could have the conscience seriously to make
that proposition to the House. He considered the tax
which fell on the community as the least of the evils be-
longing to the present system, and he hoped that the
House NI ould not entertain the notion of opposing the
plan of the Noble Lord.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS contended that the plan of
the Ministers went to dissolve the connection between us
and our colonies.--(No, no.)—He hoped that they would
retrace their steps. The policy recommended by the
Member for Bridport was to buy all things at the cheapest
market.,—to that principle he was not prepared to assent.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY was not opposed to the
principle of the measure, but he thought that the time was
not very well chosen.

Mr. HUNT approved of the tax imposed by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and meant to support them,
The petition was read and laid on the table.

Alderman THOMPSON presented similar petitions
from the ship-owners of Glasgow, the timber merchants of
Glasgow, and the ship-owners of Liverpool.

PROPERTY OF ECCLESIASTICAL CORPORA-

TIONS.

Mr. GREENE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
authorise the exchange of lands and other possessions of
chapters, collegiate and other Corporations.

DIPLOMATIC AND CONSUL AR PENSIONS.
Mr. GISBORNE rose to move for the return of which
he had given notice, and in doing it wished to attract the
attention of the House to the subject. The Diplomatic
Pensions were first regulated in 1782, and the law conti-
nued unaltered from that time till 1810, Then it was
made somewhat more restrictive. Diplomatists were not
to have pensions till after three years' active service, and
not till after they were thirty years old, These restric-
tions were found too much far. these gentlemen, and in
1811 the law was made more agreeable to them. The
sums paid in pensions, on account of diplomatic aarvices,
were totally out of proportion wish the rew.rds for other
services done to the State ; and at ~he same time much be-
yond the real means of the country. He found, on exa-
mining the printed list, that there were twenty-eight per-
sons receiving pensions of above one thousand pounds a
year for diplomatic services; ap,d that there were twelve
others who received pensions of above two thousand pounds a
year. When all this extravagance was taken in combina-
tion with the expenses of the Embassies, he really
thought the people had just reason to complain. TI
whole expense of the support of our diplomatic re,.
lations with the Ottoman Porte were, if they took
these things into consideration, above twenty-six thou-
sand nine hundred pounds every year. He thought
indeed, that the retiring allowance given to Ambassa-
dors was far out of proportion with that which Govern-
ment allowed to Governors of the Colonies, whose ser-
vices were much more severe, and their situation, while
on service, much less agreeable. Ambassadors enjoyed
the best society which the countries to which they were
sent could afford, while the Governors of Colonies were
sent to places to which they (lid not wish to go, and yet