The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-13 00:00:00

ranee then.

The SPEAKER then enquired of the Hon. Members whe-
;her they were then prepared to state that in no case would

they allow the matter to go further ?
Mr. WA SON pointed to Colonel Trench—neither gen-
tlemen apparently being inclined to give any explanation,
The SPEAKER begged to suggest to the Hon. Members,
that the House could not part with the subject, until it bad
obtained that assurance.

Colonel TRENCH, after a short pause, then rose, and
said that he wished simply to state the circumstances that had
occurred, which he hoped the House would have no objection
to. He had been brought as a prisoner to the House. When
he was in the House on Friday, he was placed in a situation
which made it very difficult for him to know how to act.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL here interrupted the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman, and said he did not know whether it was
the pleasure of the House to enter into a matter of a purely
personal nature. He thought it would not be desirable to
enter into it.

Colonel TRENCH said that when he had been called
upon, in the absence of the Hon. and Learned Member, to
give a pledge that he would not send him a hostile message,
he had not the slightest hesitation in so doing, because he
had never any intention of so doing ; but when he had been
called upon to say that he would not receive a hostile
message, he did then hesitate.—(Hear.) He had given
it on compulsion, and very reluctantly; but he had
given it on this ground, that he was in the power of the Hon.
Speaker, and he knew that if he had refused to give that
pledge it would have been a vapour, because he would have
been immediately arrested, and that cause which it was his
pride and glory to support, would have lost the benefit of his
vote.—( Hear, hear.) Ile believed he had incurred the dis-
pleasure of the House, but he had the satisfaction of knowing
that his friend whom he had consulted approved of the course
he had taken. He wished to state the provocation he had re-
ceived and the reason why he arrived at the conclusion he had
stated. He had nothing to retrace, nothing to recal, nothing
to retract. A gross insult had been offered to him, such as no
gentleman would have failed to resent.
Mr. WA SON said it was absolutely necessary for him to
deny the statement of the Hon. Gentleman.
The SPEAKER trusted the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Scarborough would give the assurance required by the
House, that he would at no time or place receive any hostile
message.
Sir F. TRENCH—UnIess I am permitted to state the en-
tire case, which will not occupy many minutes, I can give no
assurance beyond that I have already given.
Lord J. RUSSELL, whatever his own feelings might be,
did not think himself justified in any longer opposing the wish
of ithe Hon. and Gallant Member, as he seemed to think it
necessary for his own honour to state the circumstances that
bad occurred.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir F. TRENCH said his statement should be extremely
short, and for its accuracy he would appeal to every Hon.
Member in the Committee, and to the Hon. Member for
Ipswich himself. Subsequently to the examination of the
evidence, the Hon. Member for Ipswich made two propositions,
or two resolutions ; the nature of the first he (Sir F. Trench)
did not really know, but it was of such a nature that the Chair-
man of the Committee said if it was carried he should quit the
Chair. The second resolution was, that no Hon. Member
should give a vote without having first pledged his honour that
he had heard or read the whole, or the greater part of the
evidence. The Hon, Member for Ipswich looked at him (Sir
F. Trench) as if for a concurrence or acquiescence in what
he had proposed. He (Sir F. Trench) had taken a good
deal of interest in the Bill, and his constituents at
Scarborough were also deeply interested in it ; and
as in consequence of a domestic calamity he had not
attended the sittings of the Committee for the first four days,
the first thing he had done on entering the Committee was to
ask for the evidence, in order that he might take it home and
read it. He found that no evidence had been printed, which
was a very unusual thing, but in consequence of his (Sir F.
Erench's) application, it was subsequently ordered to be
printed. He had read it attentively, and had given a good
deal of time to the proceedings of the Committee, although he
had not had the good fortune to see the Hon. Member for
Ipswich there until the last day. But having read the evidence
he felt that he was not within the scope of that sort of implied
reproach which it struck him (Sir F. Trench)the lion. Mem-
ber's resolution was intended to convey against the Com-
mittee, and felt himself in a posisition take up the subject.
He had therefore said to the Hon. Member for Ipswich, " Do
I understand you aright, that you arc determined not to give
a vote because you have not read the entire evidence?"
To which the Hon. Member answered in the affirmative. A
good deal of warm discussion ensued, and he (Sir F. Trench)
said that the impression made on his mind, and the inference
he drew from the resolution of the Hon. and Learned Member,
coupled with the intimation that he should not vote himself,
was, that the Hon. Member arrogated to himself a greater de.
gree of delicacy than other Members of the Committee, and
that that case put every Gentleman in that situation, that if that
test was net put to him, he would, perhaps, vote when he
ought not to have voted. He appealed to every Member of
the Committee for the accuracy of that statement. The Hon.
Member replied, " When Sir Frederick Trench states what
he has just said he states that which is incorrect, and when he
stated that he knew it to be incorrect." He appealed to every
Hon. Member of that House to every man of honour and feeling,
sews he would have done under such circumstances. His
(Sir F. Trench's) reply was short. He had never in his life
said behind a man's back what he would be ashamed to say
to his face. He had never said what was incorrect, and any
man who said so stated that which was untrue. The Hon.
and Learned Member, after a minute or two's reflection, said,
" I have nothing more to say to Sir F. Trench here," and re-
tired hastily. Ile ( Sir F. Trench) did not say that he expected
a hostile message; hut it was his duty to come down to
his place in the House ; but he waited as long as he
conveniently could in Abingdon-street, and the Hon. Member
for Northallerton, whom he did not previously know, with
great kindness and courtesy addressed him, and told him that
the Hon. Member for Ipswich would not take any further
steps until the following morning, in the hope that some ex-
planation would take place. After he had taken his place, an
Hon. Member whispered to him flat the Hon. Member for
Ipswich had gone to Calais to avoid being served with the
Speaker's warrant. Under these circumstances he (Sir F.
Trench) had responded to the first call of the Speaker, not to
deliver a hostile message. To the second he had most reluc-
tantly responded, because he had no alternative left, and
it would have been a mere vacant flourish if he had refused,
because in that case he would have been put under arrest. The
third case which had been put he had declined to accede to,
and he appealed to the Speaker, and to every Hon. Member
in the House, if he could have acted otherwise. He (Sir F.
Trench) bore no malice whatever to the Hon. Member, for
he never had any intercourse with him but on one occasion,
when he had done him (Sir F. Trench) the favour to look at
his plans. He repeated, therefore, he bore no malice to him,
any more than to any other Member ; but the proposition made
by the Hon. Member for Ipswich was so unusual, so unpar-
liamentary, and, moreover, it implied such an insult to every
member of the Committee, with the exception of himself,
who felt that he did not come within its scope, that he had felt
it right to come forward, and thus he had involved himself in a
personal way with the Hon. Member. He had nothing to retract,
and there he was a culprit, not in a very good state of health,
in the hands of the House, although he felt that the prescrip-
tion of the House had not done him much good. In his opi-
nion, it would be better if these matters were left to their natu-
ral course, without the interference of the House. He was
anxious to make that statement, and had not one word further
to add.—( Hear. )
Mr. WASON, after what had fallen from the Hon. and
Gallant Member, felt himself called upon shortly to address
the House relative to the facts of the case. When the Rail-
way Bill was introduced, he was requested by 142 of his best
friends and constituents to support the Bill : his answer was,
that he never voted for any privateßill unless he heard the evi-
dence taken upon it ; but he would go down and attend sedu-
lously to the evidence, and give such a vote as his conscience
dictated. He attended daily at the West Durham Junction
Railway Committee ; he heard the evidence, and was compelled
from a sense of justice to vote against the wishes of his con-
stituents and against the Bill. He was not found fault with,
but was then requested to attend the Committee in question.
He went to that Committee ; but not having done so at first,
and knowing that the preamble was to be decided, and being
told that there was to be a whipping-up of Members, he
thought that justice required that some such resolution as his
was necessary. He came down to the Committee early next
day, when there were only five members of the Committee
present. He then gave notice of his motion; but was obliged
to leave the Committee upon private business, and his reso-
lution was left in the room. It was to the effect, that
no Member's vote should be received whose name had
not been put down in accordance with the resolution,
of the Railway Committee. He had shown the Resolution to
one of the oldest Members of the House, who approved af
)e
it,
saying that it was necessary that some such thing should
done. He returned to the Committee, and was then informed
that the evidence had been printed, and that his Resolution
would not meet the case of any Hon. Member who had read
the evidence. He then altered his Resolution so that_thata a
e
who had read the evidence might be allowed to vote. B
it was impossible to put down the names of those_syh o read the
s
evidence, he added to the Resolution that on taking the vote
of any Member upon the preamble of the Bill, the
Chairman
should put the question whether he had heard or
adduced or read the
evi-
dence or the greater part a the cc:
t
in support of, or against, the preamble of the Bill.—
( Hear.) The Honourable Member for
and
hSr Members,hields—the
Noble Lord the Member for Norwich, other

uis
opposed the resolution, some calling it absurd—some
tt
ho rei arle_s_ool
ut ht describinge iwt
nags
no
n
unusual, &c
personality" hour t
pt
ehresyn
na
feel-
ingstnetlacinckencl
roused, ;hough they did not spare the motion. she
one
and Gallant Officer then took up the question, and, with o
exception, he had stated the matter correctly. His words were
that he (Mr. Wason) arrogated to himself principles of
thenp
u-
rity of conduct which he did not allow to others. He
left the room with the Hon. Member for NorthOerton, so that
it was impossible for the Honourable and Gallant Member
to have heard what had fallen from him.—(Cheers.)
veral Hon, embers on Commiee said they thought it
would be but Mright that everthe y Membertt should read ,the whole
of the evidence before they came to any decision upon the
question. The Hon. and Gallant Member thought that e
there
was no necessity for the adoption of such a course, as thh
evidence had already been sufficiently considered ; to whic
he (Mr. Wason) replied that he thought it bad not, and that
he would not vote at all because he had not heard the evidence.
He fully concurred with what had been stated that the House
ought to judge one of its own Members in the same way as it
would any other individual.—( Cheers.) He had done every
thing in his power to prevent the matter coming before the
House—having done so he thought he had a right to call upon
the Gallant Member (he appealed personally to him because he
thought he would rather do that of his own motion than taking
any step in the House), he would ask the Hon. and Gallant
Member whether he could reconcile the step he had taken
towards him with that which he had adopted in the House.--
(Cheers.) After he has placed himself under the protection
of the House, he must ask most unfeignedly, whether it was
not right on the part of the Gallant Member to retract the in-
sult which he had rendered it impossible for him to atone
for.—( Cheers.)
Mr. WRIGHTSON, as one of the Committee, thought
the course pursued by Mr. Wason was not to be complained of.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he still remained of the same opi-
nion that he had expressed in the early part of the debate.
The only part the House had to take when allegations were
made by one Member to another was to inquire whether it was
consistent with its character and dignity. If the Hon. and
Gallant Member was ready to say that he did not intend any
personal insult, and would not carry the matter further, he
thought the House would be satisfied ; otherwise the House
could not help, however painful it might be, interfering to
prevent the matter going further.
Mr. A. CH APM AN, as a member of the Committee, ex-
pressed his belief that the words used by both the Hon. and
Gallant Member and the Hon. and Learned Member, were
not intended to give an insult to either party.
The SPEAKER rose and made some observations which
were almost inaudible in the Gallery. The purport of them
we understood to be, that he called upon the Hon. Members
to give an assurance that this misunderstanding between them
should henceforth cease. If that assurance were given the
Hon. Members would be discharged. He hoped that both
the Hon. Members would rise in their place and give that as-
surance. There was a considerable pause, but neither of
the Hon. Members having risen,
Mr. A. TREVOR rose, and was about to make some observa-
tions, but was met by a general cry of ‘, Order" from both
sides of the House. The Hon. Member sat down.
The SPEAKER rose again, and said that the House
wished, and had a right to learn what Ns as the determination
of the Hon. Members.—( Cheers.)
Here was another pause, but neither of the Hon. Members

rose.
Sir R. PEEL said he knew nothing of the subject before the
House, except from the statement that had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Ipswich. He was sure that it was the tun'
versal wish of the House that an end should be put to this dis
cussion.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared that the two Hon. Gen-
tlemen had never been on any other terms before except those
of friendly communication. They did not know each other per-
sonally, but that his Hon. and Gallant Friend had bad all
interview proceeding from the courtesy of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Ipswich. There had been a controversy between
them in Committee, arising merely out of their eagerness to
do justice to both parties. Neither of them could have the
slightest intention to offer the other a personal insult ; there
was no pre-existing feeling which could make either of thorn
intend to offer a personal insult.—( Hear, bear.) It was said
that the first words that were used by the Hon. and Gallant
Member were, that the Hon. Member for Ipswich was arro-
gating to himself a purity of principle which he did not allow'
to others. Now, if there was any thing offensive in that ex-
pression, there was not a Gentleman who took part in the de-
bates of that House who would not be called upon frequently
to vindicate himself.—( Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh.)
How did the Honourable Member for Ipswich meet this?
He said to the Honourable and Gallant Member, " What
you have stated is ineorrect."—( Hear, hear.) Now this
was perfectly justifiable, but the Honourable and Learner!
Member went on to say, " and you know it to be incorrect,
He (Sir R. Peel) recollected that it was said of Dr. Johnson"
that when he meant to contradict a man civilly, he said,
" You lie"—(A laugh)—but when he meant to be offensive
he said, " You lie, and you know you lie."—(Great laugh-
ter.) Now, when the Hon. and Learned Member said, 4, Yoe
have stated what is incorrect, and you know it," it was in point
of fact charging the Hon. and Gallant Member with false-
hood. It was telling him in a very civil way that what the
Hon. and Gallant Member said was false, and he knew it to
false. —( Hear, hear.) Was it not a civil way of telling a
man that he knowingly told what was false ?—(Hear, hear.)
The Honourable and Gallant Member met this by saYiagr
that what the Honourable and Learned Member said was
untrue.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member had a
fair right to expect that this expression should be withdrawn-
-(Loud cheers.) No explanation could be satisfactory with-
out it—(Renewed cheers from the Ministerial side of the
House)—but then the Hon. and Learned Member must als°
be called upon to say, that in using the previous expression
he did not mean to cast— (The close of the sentence was
drowned in the cheers from the Opposition side of the House.)
Mr. W A SON rose and said, that he thought that no Hon-
Gentleman could rise in his place and say, that the 11°-
nourable and Gallant Member, by his previous expression,
had not offered him an insult. There was not
Gentleman in the room who would say so. Let the Hon. and
Gallant Member rise in his place and say so.—( Hear, hear.)
It was his desire on all occasions to do exactly as the House
required. It was impossible for him not to feel the force °f
what the Right Hon. Baronet had stated. But it was als°
impossible for him to state that any thing that took place i°
that House was cordial and sincere on his part. It would be
given under compulsion, the Honourable and Gallant Mem-
ber having placed himself in a situation to refuse satisfaction
for an insult.—(Loud cries of " Oh," and " No.") He an-
feignedly believed that the Hon. Member's putting himself untie!:
the protection of. the House was as undesigned as it wa'
designedly done on his (Mr. \Vason's) part ; and therefore heconsidered that being in that situation—(Cries of " Obs-°ll*
If the lion. and Gallant Member would rise and say that the
whichexpressions he used were not intended as an insult---
that they were not intended to contain an insult, he (Mr-
Wason) would, as we understood, withdraw the expression he"
had used.
After a few words from an HON. MEMBER, whose name
was not known in the Gallery, di
Mr. WA SON said the words he made use of were--
certainly shall not vote, I shall answer the question of the
Hon. Chairman in the negative."
Mr. W. TURNER said his Hon. Friend, in the words 13°
had used, never intended any offence.
Mr. LOWTHER said his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wason), in
his opinion, ought to be perfectly satisfied with the assurannecal
which had been given, that the observations of the H0n....a-
of
Gallant Member were not, in the opinion of the
the Committee who had spoken, intended to convey an 7 P
sonal imputation.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir F. TRENCH said if the Hon. Member had felt o.f-_
fended at his observations, he should have asked him at tlirla
moment whether disrespect was intended ; but instead 0f Puce('
suing this course, he at once told him that what he had sta
was a lie.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member had charged b e•
with having thrown himself upon the protection of that Houses
Now how stood the fact? He (Sir F. Trench) h ad To
the Hon. Member for Northallerton, who informed him
he had a long conversation with the Hon. Member for Ipswa%
in reference to what had taken place, and that be had strt.e
that he would take no steps until the next morning, in o
to afford him (Sir F. Trench) an opportunity of giving sTeic:
explanation. He therefore came down to the House
the impression that the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
wich was in his place, and not seeing him at that time he Ale
petted that he would have appeared shortly afterwards. h
Sergeant-at-Arms also, he believed, laboured under
c
same impression ; and the Hon. Gentleman not having
made his appearance during the night, he (Sir F. Trenc,llChi,
put under restraint by the Speaker. He therefore fel! it
duty to repel the imputation that he had sought the prote,'i_ht
of that House in order to avoid the consequences which °I b
have ensued.can in
Mr. WASON assured the Hon. Member he did not
the observations he made to insinuate that the arrest of th
°Ti
ned
and Gallant Gentleman was not accidental, and he only . !Et,
the fact to shew that he (Mr. W.) had been precludeur;e.,
seeking satisfaction. With respect to the conversato°
and
tween the Hon. Member for Northallerton and the 11°Totniaa
Gallant Gentleman, he could only say that the p
hadthat he
been wouldextor t e take no
om i slot e p
by until
hsHon. t next Fri
en d 7113on:hanueacid'
taken reigns out of his bands on entering his 98, into
threatenei to drive to the police station, and givenn;
that
custody.—(Laugh.) It was under these circumstance
the assurance referred to had been given.did not
Mr. TREVOR, as a member of the Committee,.
'on
bcoenensidnesredthienonbnseorffveantisoinveosfehnisse.Hon. and Gallant Frieno l
us'es
Lord JOHN RUSSELL understood the expre”; _
by the Hon and Gallant Member was not intended.chls, aand,
suit to the Ron. and Learned Member for IPswian might
therefore, he did think the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
state he had not intended any insult. The Hon. andsvaGsalnianit
Member had very nearly stated, if not that which
virtlee!d
equivalent to it, that if the Hon. Member for ip
.1c
rseutprpaocstintghetheaxtpraenssi
Now, be
her was ready to make a satisfactory apology,
'n the expression
and Gallant Member, that then the Hon. and Gallant Mew-
inesnolhtehandadbeuesnedo,
frwehreicdh
twoashionlnliyjuttficeny.,
distinctly, that
tthhentEhloend.iadnnelotGmalelannntaGnyenetffleemni
tier for
he had first used, that the Hon. and .
Learned
with the request,
Ipswich could not abstain from complying
of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman. .
to him, was he to be called upon to make_d taken offence at that
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman ha
Col. TRENCH—If the first
nee at from others. The
enarivinoeudiimsetamte ag,in
Hon. Mem'. e;• for York hart; used thee
tiaon and Gallant Mei!:
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said th . •
that ho wanted him
from him which he had not taken goro,.ss aniueletthxbepardfiergsbsteeioß:3°.°llf47l-
- had m'sunderstood him in suppoosing
to make the first apology he had
state to the HMO whether he had understood him
lipeoonrr:oiTv.o

u -WAsos and Sir R. PEEL both rose together, but Sir
Feel being called for, Mr. Wason gave way, and
Sir R. PEEL said it was with great reluctance that he took
part in the discussion, because he was afraid it would be made
tParty question of..—( Loud cries of No, no.) Whoever used
e first personally offensive expression, ought to be the first
10 withdraw it. If expressions were used that did not trench
upon the fair license of discussion, and were not personally
,!'ffensive, he did not think it was wise to require any apology,
!cause if he, for instance, in the course of a debate, used
7ariu expressions, but which were really not personally offen-
-Bril,e, no one had a right to submit him to the humiliation of
:filleting them. If he used expressions that were personally
offensive, he trusted the feelings of a gentleman would induce
Mvoluntarily to tender an apology. Now had not the
embers of the Committee stated that the words used
bll/ his Hon. and Gallant Friend, were not offensive,
e did not wish the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to make
any retraction which he felt inconsistent with his honour; but
should he not say, " I made use of expressions which I
I,lleught were offensive, under the immediate impression that I
ad been insulted, and if I am wrong in that, I withdraw it ?"
11Ir. WA SON had stated in express terms that already.
the Hon. and Gallant Officer had asked him why he had not
ken the same offence from the Hon. Member for York. He
3gged to say that he had never heard the Hon. Member for
.ork make the same statement. He had stated that already
".hich the Right Hon. Baronet thought a person in his situa-
tion should state.--( Cries of " Colonel Trench" and " Chair,

the SPEAKER said that he should be the last person in
World to suggest to any Hon. Member that which in his
Ziscience he thought was inconsistent with his honour or
With his duty to the House.—( Cheers.) He had now heard
ee facts of the case for the first time, and the impressio that
had been left on his mind from what he had heard was,that
Words were used by the Hon. and Gallant Member for Scar-
roh which led the Honourable and Learned Member
?I' Ipswich to think offence had been intended to him.
4,r°°'. the manner, or from some other circumstance, in which
'Lie words were used. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had
Stated, that if the Hon. and Learned Member bad asked for
4° explanation in the Committee, he would have received that
!„,IPlanation. He therefore thought the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman could have no difficulty in stating that which in
substance he has already admitted.
Mr. W ASO N would not be worthy of a seat in that House
he was capable of getting up and stating that which he did
not feel. If the Hon. and Gallant Baronet would say in his
Placa that he meant no offence, he (Mr. W.) wou'd at once
most unfeignedly, that he was sorry for having used the
Words which he had been led to do.—(Cheers, and cries for
(131.nel Trews.)
After a pause, Col. TRENCH rose and said, I abide by
the decision of the Chair.
Mr, E WART thought the hypothetical case put by the
Pon. Member for Ipswich was fair, and that it should at once
°e adopted by the Gallant Member for Scarborough.
Sir A. L. HAY could not be supposed to have any un-
friendly feeling for the Hon. Member for Ipswich, and from
the long experience he had had of matters of this sort, he was
sure no one could suppose for a moment that he would give
any advice which would tend to compromise the honour of any
individual.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member (Mr. Wason)
Was not called upon to make the first apology, but to state that
himth explanation which was satisfactory to the House was so to
• The Gallant Officer had stated that he had no intention
of offending in the first instance.—(Cries of " Let him state
80 now.")
Mr. DUNCOVIBE—Nothinc, could be more absurd than
to make this a party question. 'His first impression was, that
the Hon. Member for Ipswich was in the wrong, but after
nearing the cas
the firststa he tought that his Gallant Friend was
'bound to maketement, as, according to his own ex-
Planation, he bad given the first insult. He had already stated
that his intention was not to offend ; but why would he not now
Ilse in his place, and make the same declaration, and then the
°ther Hon. Member would immediately withdraw the offensive
Words ?

Mr. C. FERGUSON thought the person who gave the
fitst insult was bound to make the first explanation. •
Sir RONALD FERGUSON would submit to the
Speaker that that House was intended for the discussion of im-
portant public business.—( Loud cries of " Hear.") If neither
')f the Hon. Members were willing to respond to the call cf
House, he could not help thinking that it was a great waste of
The public time • he should therefore move that both the Hon.
Members be taken into custody.—( Hear.)
Sir H. HARDINGE would, if he were in the position of
the Hon. Member for Ipswich, have no hesitation in making
the required concession. In every case where such differences
11t41 at isen the House was bound to require the first concession
from him who had given the first personal offence.—( Hear,
tear, from both sides of the House.)
An HON. MEMEER—The question is, who has given the
first offence ?—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. and Gallant
Member had consented to abide by the decision of the Speaker.
He had therefore done everything that was required by the
House, and he therefore would suggest that the Hon. Member
for Ipswich be called upon by the Chair.
Mr. AGLIO N BY objected to the course recommended by
the Noble Lord. He agreed with the observation of the Hon.
and Gallant Baronet (Sir H. Hardinge) that the Gentleman
giving the first offence should make the first concession ; and
.I,le also agreed with the sentiments expressed some time ago
'1 the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. But it
seemed to him that the Hon. Member for Ipswich had by an-
ticipation taken the course prescribed, although he must say
that-it did not appear to him that the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
tor had given the explanation which the House should require.
'eery Member of the Committee had stated his impressions
1:13 the House ; but the Hon. and Gallant Member had not
bad his intention of offering personal offence. If he
'stl not intended any personal offence, as the House was led
(0 suppose, why should he not come forward to say so ?
(Hear.) If the lion. and Gallant Member would do that,
then the Hon. Member fur Ipswich would give the fullest and
Most explicit explanation to the Hon. and Gallant Member and
the House.
Sir R. PEEL would leave it to the Hon. and Gallant
General whether he would give any advice upon the subject.
Supposing in a debate he ( Sir R. Peel) had made use of expres-
sions about the Government perfectly justified in parliamentary
debate, and supposing it was said by others—You know it is
felse—and he denied it to be so, if hik words were offensive, he
should be the first to make the avowal that they were so—
(Cheers)—but if they were not, why should he be called
Upon to state that they were so ?
Mr. JAMES GRATTAN urged upon the House the pro-
Priety of going to business.—( Cheers.) And for the pur-
l'enio of their doing so, he would support the Noble Lord.
Sir E. CODRINGTON said that if he was in the situa-
tion of the Hon. and Gallant Officer, he should not hesitate
!0 say that he did not intend to give offence, where he did not
lntend to do so.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Ipswich
had said if no offence was intended, he would recal the ex-
pression he made use of. Many Hon. Members who were
!round the Gallant and Hon. Member, had stated that he in-
tended no offence, and all that was required of him, was to
°ochre so himself.
Colonel Trench still persisted in not rising to explain.
Mr. LAMBTON believed that the object of the Hon. and
Yearned Member was to obtain a Committee of Reform,
thinking, it most unjust that Members should come down to
the Committee and vote who had not heard the evidence.
...AN HON. MEMBER wished to know whether the Hon.
Member for Ipswich would have any objection to state that he
vended no offence ?
Mr. WA SON would state in the most enequivocal manner
that his only wish and desire was to bring under the attention
.1,4 the Committee the subject of Members voting, who had not
heard the evidence. He had not the least intention of giving
ety offence to the Hon. Member.—( Cheers. )
u Mr. PRYME made some observations amid loud cries of
Question" and " Divide."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then proposed the follovving mo-
tion It the opinion of this House, after the declaration of
the Committee, that Rigby Wason, Esq., be called upon to
retract the offensive expressions made use of by him ?"
Mr. WA SON considered such motion most unjust. He
Might have been mistaken, but he could only say this, when
the Hon. Gentleman opposite said he was so, the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) asked him (Mr. Wason) whe-
ther, if the Hon. and Gallant Officer would say that he did
tot mean any insult, he (Mr. Wason) would retract, and he
irnmediately offered to do so. Did the Hon. and Gallant
Member, by his silence, mean to say that he meant to insult
him (Mr. Wason) or not?
Sir R. PEEL said that his original proposal was this, that
%.the Hon. Gentleman having heard the evidence of the Mem-
"ers of the Commitee should say this,—" I made use of offer.-
St ore expressions under the impression that an insult was in-
nded lam willing, if lam wrong in that impression, to
:litlidraw the expressions altogether." What had passed be-
tween him and his Hon. and Gallant Friend was, that he told
Lunt that the moment this was said, he ought to get up and
7ithdraw the expression he had made use of altogether.—
hear.) His Hon. and Gallant Friend did not say that
" Would not comply with this condition.
The SPEAKER was about to put the question, when
Mr. W A SON rose and said, that before the question was
he wished to say that if by possibility he could under-
stand that the Hon. and Gallant Member did not mean any
he (Mr. Wason) would most unequivocally, and most
decidedly, retract the expressions he had used.
Mr. pou LT E R said that they were speaking of what they
emild know nothing about, viz., of the intentions of the Hon.
and Gallant Member. He was of opinion that the first per-
a°nal matter had passed from the Hon. and Gallant Member.
"(Great cries of " Oh, oh," from the opposition.) The
eil• and Gallant Member had stated that the Hon. and
Yearned Member for Ipswich arrogated to himself a purity
li,s
hieh he denied to others. This implied arrogance, and was
't that personal ?—( Cries of " Oh, oh," and cheers.) The
00. and Gallant Member should communicate his intentions
''',l,l?e House, as he alone could know what they were.
q•tvlr. BANNERMAN thought that the two Hon. Members
•Pkre now in the situation in which they were in Committee.
4emt lion. and Learned Member for Ipswich ought to have
n eluded an explanation in the Committee. Let him do so
tle4w, and ask the Hon. and Gallant Member whether he in-
-I„.nded an insult? If this were done, the matter would be at
, end.
tn be J. WROTTESLEY thought that some means ought
ue adopted to put a stop to these proceedings. He thought
et the best way would be to allow the Hon. Members to re-
irilnn° in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, and in the
Meantime their respective friends might interfere. He would
tore that the debate be adjourned till five o'clock.
,7r• WA SON apprehended he was going one step further,
When he said that if what the Speaker had stated was fact,
•,t the lion. and Gallant Member had no intention of offer-
no a personal offence, then he (Mr. Wason) would have
° Recitation in saying, that if what the Speaker stated was