The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

'the Bill itself, he regretted that so much had been at
tempted in it, since the effect was that the details had iiet
been sufficiently examined ; and he condemned the test o'
Population, which had been resorted to, as the criterim
for conferring the elective franchise. Besides, it wait littb
less than absurd to pretend to ascertain that population by
a census taken ten years ago, when the lapse of only a few
weeks would have furnished returns far more recent and
accurate. Another anomaly in the plan was this ;—that
although those who voted for boroughs could not also von
for counties in respect of the same property, yet the po-
pulation of those boroughs was taken into the cal
culation in deciding the point, whether the counties
where they were situated should or should not be
allowed additional representatives. The Right Honour
able Gentleman illustrated this point, by reference
to the cases of Glamorganshire and Cumberland. Care
ought to be taken not to give a double effect to some part
of the constituency of the kingdom, by communicating to
them a double right of voting. During the thit ty years
he had sat in Parliament, he had paid great attention to
the different cases of corruption brought before the House;
and when it was proper to do so upon strong proof, I e
had supported the extreme of disfranchisement. It was
observable, however, that corruption hail, in various
cases, been established not against the lowest class of voters.
At Cricklade, Aylesbury, and Retford, it had been proved
against the householders. Those who Lad resided in
houses of 101. a year rent and upwards, had been shown,
in many instances, to be the most corrupt ; and what
security was there that 200 out of the 300 voters in each
place contemplated by the Bill under consideration,
woulsl not be very willing to accept 201 apiece for their
suffrages? The measure was so complicated that it ought
to have been divided into separate Bills; and sure he
was that the question of Registration alone would require
consideration for nearly a Session, as it would be extremely
difficult to guard against eternal disputes and jealousies as
to the value of houses. Many questious of difficulty
would also arise on the subject of leases and the length of
terms. It had been said that the general effect of the
Reform would be to get rid of 114 drones, and to replace
,hem by as many active and intelligent Members ; but his
experience rather showed that the best men of business and
d e most efficient Members of Parliament were not usually
those who represented counties or populous towns.
Splendid talents would unquestionably make their way,
but he begged to call the attention of the House to the
case of the late Mr. Hoskisson—a man not remarkable for
the brilliancy of his abilities, but who invariably secured
attention by his habits of business, and by the depth and
accuracy of his knowledge. Instances of the same kind
were frequent, and showed the necessity of some mode of
introducing such useful and able men to public life. He
was certainly of opinion that the present number of close
boroughs was larger than necessary, but the proposed
remedy was infinitely too sweeping. He was disposed to
approve of the plan of throwing the small boroughs, where
it could be done, into districts—not depriving them of
their share in the representation, but calling upon them
to exercise it conjointly. Such a system prevailed in
Wales, and it had worked well, and a Bill was before
the House for extending it to Scotland. Let that ex-
periment be made in one or two places first, and if it
succeeded, next year it might be carried further.
With respect to population, lie thought that another
Session ought to elapse before it was definitively fixed ;
a new census would be soon made, and was it to
he said that it was fit to establish a principle in
1831, which might be altered in 1882? Claims to
the franchise which could not justly be resisted, might
next year be advanced, and the only answer must be, that
the Bill hail been passed, and that the application was ton
late. This brought him to the motion-immediately be-
fore the House. Ile saw no reason why the representation
of Ireland should be altered. It was true, that since 1800,

and chiefly in consequence of the Union, Ireland had in-
creased in population, alth, and happine s.--(" No,
no," from Mr. O'Connell.) The Hon. Member, no doubt,
had more personal experience; but even he would not
deny that Ireland had increased in intelligence. Of late
years the Members she had sent over were men of wider
views and greater talents than those who arrived in this
country immediately after the Union. But it was to be
recollected that if the population of Ireland had been
augmented, that of England had been augmented also,
and in an equal proportion ; and if the number of Mem-
bers were to depend upon the number of constituents, it
would be necessary to review the subject every ten or
twenty years. For the reasons he had stated, unless
stronger arguments than he had yet heard were brought
forward, he was willing to adhere to what was established,
if only because it was established ; the onus of proving
the propriety of a change rested upon those who ad-
vocated it.

Sir G. CLERK wished to state a few of the reasons
. . .

which induced him to support the motion of the Hon. and
and Gallant General. The only reason why the measure of
Reform had acquired a certain degree of popularity in
Scotland was, that it proposed to give five additional Mem-
bers to that part of the United Kingdom, and if he could
approve of any part of the plan it would be that. He did
not -think with the Hon. Baronet (Sir. G. Warreuder) that
the effect of the motion of the Hon. and Gallant General
would be to limit the number of representatives for Scot-
land ; if that had been his opinion, he (Sir G. C.) would not
have supported it. He wished the ease of Scotland to stand
upon its own :writs, so that if necessary additional Mein-
berg should be given to Glasgow or Edinburgh, without
reference to the numbers for England or Ireland. He
would not object to the transfer of the franchise from
boroughs which should have been fully crnvicted of cor-
ruption, to other parts of England. But he would sup-
port the amendment, of which the object was to prevent
the rutting off forty.ene Members from the representation
of this country. He had voted last year against the pro-
position of the Noble Lord opposite to increase the numbers
of the House by adding representatives fur some of the
large towns ; but he would have had much less oh-

jection to such an increase, than to the sweeping measure
of disfranchisement which the Noble Lord now pro-
posed.--(Hear, hear.) He could not see any reason fur
the diminution of the number of the representatives, when
the population, wealth, and intelligence of the country had
increased, and when that very increase was alleged as the
principal ground on which the measure of Reform was
dert.nded.—( Hear.)

Sir JOHN MALCOLNI would not occupy the House
by discussing the details of the Bill. He was opposed to
the whole measure by which an example would be given
for taking away the charters of Englishmen. If that
Bill were passed, and those boroughs, of which he him-
self represented one, were cut off from the representa-
tion, how should risen who had passed a greater part of
their lives abroad in the service of the country, and
therefore possessed ❑o local influence, obtain access
to that House? How were merchants and professional
men, however qualified by their peculiar experience to
enlighten the deliberations of the legislature, to obtain
places in Parliament having no family or local influence ?
Never had he felt so much pain, as when sitting in that
place, he heard himself described as a piece of dirt by
gentlemen in their charges of rottenness and corruption
against those boroughs and their representatives.—(Hear,
hear.) Although, as a Scotchman, he would be desirous
to obtain (as we understood him) all proper advantages
for Scotland, he yet was of opinion that the representation
of England ought not to be diminished.—(Hear, hear.)
If the new experiment-ups:l the constituency were to be
made at all, it ought, at least, to be confined to those places
which have ut present the right of representation. W:th
respect to the proposed increase of the representatives of
Scotland—alhough he was by no means deficient of that
attachment to his country by which Scotchmen were dis-

tinguished—yet, rising a military phrase, he must say that
the Scotchmen had taken the liberty very often of billetting
themselves upon England since the . Union —(Much
laughter.)—On the contrary, he had never heard of an.
Irishman or Englishman hiving sat for a Scotch borough.
He knew that in voting against the Bill, and also in sup-
porting the amendment of the lion. and Gallant Member
opposite, he differed trom his constituents, and he felt that
in doing so he was acting with the boldness and indepen-
dence in which he had prided himself throughout his life.
Sir R. WILSON thought that the Noble Lord who had
introduced the Reform Bill had dome honour to himself
and the Administration with which he was connected by
the redeeming of their pledges to the nation, however
objectionable in some of its details that Bill must be
considered. For his part, his objections to a reduction
of the English representation were insuperable.—(Hear.)
He had never heard the Noble Lord allege a single reason
for that reduction ; and certainly he (Sir It, Wilson)
could not understand why a diminution of the number of
Members was to be considered advisable at a time when
the business of the country was confessedly increasing.—
(Hear, hear ) He knew that the time was not distant
when England would require the aid of the full amount of
her representatives to maintain her interests—(Cheers.)—
and he could not tut be startled at the proposition which,
instead of increasing, or at least preserving the amount,
was, in effect, a decimation of the English representation.
—(Cheers.) Whether, in those vie.vs he was right of
wrong, the moment he heard the proposition of his Noble
Friend, he determined rather to relinquish his seat in that
House, than give his support to that part of the Reform
Bill..—(Cheers.)—For he had been sent into that HOLM
as a Reformer, and he would not appear to his constituents
an enemy to Reform, by withholding his support from
the Reform proposed by the Government, with which be

as assoziated on the general pi inciples of their administra-
tion; and On' the general question of Reform. He had a
confidential communication with a gentleman connected
with the Government, and from him he received an assur-
ance which satisfied him, that the part of the Bill to which
lie so strongly objected was not considered essential to its
princip'e, but would merely be submitted to the House as
a suggestion for their consideration. During the recess, he
had had conversations with several others, who confirm-
ed him in that opinion; and he had also been assured by the
Gallant General who moved the amendment now before
the House, that his proceeding was not of a hostile
character. Accordingly, agreeing with the Gallant G.
neral in that view, and in his disapproval of the proposed
reduction of the Members, he had promised to support the
present motion.—(Cheers, and loud cries of, " Oh, oh.")
In promising that support, he conceived that he was act-
ing in opposition to the views of his Majesty's Govern-
ment —(Oh, oh, and cheers.) If it seemed necessary to
give representatives to places in Scotland and Ireland, hi_
•therto unrepresented, it would be much beter, he thought,
to enlarge also the number of English Members than to
diminish it.—(Cheers.) On the 12th of April, the Noble
Loud (Lord John Russell) said, that as it was thought de-
sirable by many persons who were favourable to the prin-
ciples of the Bill that the Members of the House should
not he reduced, the Government had been induced to relax
its determination on this point, not thinking it of vital
irnportance.—(Hear.) On the 13th of April the Noble
Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, that in order
to remove erroneous impressions which scenic I to have
been taken from the expression of the Noble Lord (J„
Russell) on the preceding evening, he wished to state that
Government had no intention to restore the whole number
of the Members which it was originally proposed to take
from the House; but that if the House, upon considera-
tion, should come to a decision not to diminish its Mem-
bers, the Government would not think that such an
inroad upon the principle of the Bill as to induce
them to resist it, as they had never considered the
reduction an essential part of the Bill.—(Hear.)—
But, last night, that proposition was declared to be '
essential to the Bill; and the motion of his Gallant
Friend opposite was described to be as invidious inea- •
sure, and they who supported it were set down as enemies
to Reform.—(Great cheering from both sides.) He was
greatly surprised at that change of language.—(Hear.)
He had been a Reformer.—(Cheers, and repeated cries of
oh, oh !) He had been prepared to support the Govern-
ment even on that point to which nothing could ever have
reconciled him but the fear that opposition to it might
cause the Bill to be lost—he meant the disfranchisement
of the potwallopping boroughs, which he had always con-
sidered a most useful and efficacious part of the consti-
tuency.—(Loud cheers.) At the same time he hail never
advocated (we understood him to sty) universal suffrage;
or the ballot, because he believed, that if those measures
were once conceded, they would lead to others by which
the overthrow of the Constitution would speedily be
effected.—(Cheers.) He was not the Reformer who could
change his opinions on the subject of Reform every week.
(Prodigious cheering, and cries of " oh, oh.") He was
not the Reformer who put on and cast off his principles
with as much readiness as his garments.—(Repeated cheer-
ing.) He was not the Reformer, who, by his indecision, .
disparaged his own character, and threw doubt upon his
own opinions.—(oh, oh ! and repeated cheering.) Neither
was he the Reformer, who, having passed his word to
his Gallant Ft iend opposite, that he should support his mo.
tion, could afterwards appear to barter his political inde-
pendence, in assisting the opposition of the Government to
that motion. He thought it' the duty of every man em-
barking in public life to sacrifice all private interests—to
sacrifice not only his own hopes and fortunes, but those of
his relatives, which he must hold far dearer than his own
—rather than to compromise his character for political in-
tegrity.—(Cheering of very varied expression.) But the
fluctuation of Councils on this question had been such, as
if the Government had set its fortunes upon a die, which,
in prudence, ought never to have been cast.—(Cheers.)—
He regretted that uncertainty of C iuncils, as it endangered.
the measure upon which the peace arid tranquillity of the
country depended.—(Cheers.) He felt himself in a posi-
tion of extreme difficulty ; he could not retract his pro-
mise to his Gallant Friend, nor could he (after the decla-
ration of the Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, last night) consistently with his duty to his consti-
tuents, vote for the amendment.—(Cheers.) He could
understand what was signified in those cheers. Who,
then were the men who dared by such cheers to impugn •
the integrity of his conduct?--(Cheers.) Let them stand
up boldly in their places.—(Cheers.) He did not shrink
from the difficulty into which he had been involved ;
though he felt that he had been inveigled into his present
dubious position by his mistaken confidence. He was pre-
pared to surrender to his constituents the trust which they
had committed to bin), if they d;sapproved of hit;:conduct,
and withdrew their confidence. If it should be the con-
sequinee of the course which he pursued on that occasion,
that he should retire from public life, he would carry with
him into his ret rement a grateul recollection of the cour-
tesy which he had ever experienced in that House, and a
perfect confidence that he bore with him into private life
an unblemished character for political integrity.—(Cheers.)
Mr. STANLEY had beard from the Gallant General
who had just sat down an imputation of change of lan-
guage and uncertainty of councils, which, however easily
detected by the quick eyes of a watchful enemy, could
scarcely have been perceived by a confiding friend. If
the Hon. General was so much astonished at that change
of language, what did lie suppose must be the astonish-
tnent of his own constituents at his change of language.—
(Hear, hear.) To him it was astonishing that the G
lant Member, who had been a Reformer—(Hear, hear)—
well, who still was a Reformer—could 'reconcile his oppo-
sition to the present measure of Reform with his own pro.
• • . _

fessions.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know what the
Hon. Baronet would say to his constituents, who would,
he thought, be somewhat startled at the course followed by
their representative, notwithstanding his readiness to re-.
linguist' his seat after he should have defeated the mea-
sure to which they were anxiously attached—(-Iw,
hear)—unless, indeed, the Hon. and Gallant Baronet hal
prepared them for the lamentable departure by one of
those confidential communications—(Cheers and laughter)
—respecting which he (Mr. Stanley) wished to say a
word. The Gallant Member seemed to complain that his
Majesty's Ministers had deceived him on a question of
which no man heard a word until two or three evenings
ago.—(Yes, yes, from the Opposition.) In whatever
communications the Gallant Member might have bad with
persons connected with the Administration, he (Mr. Stan-
ley) believed that he had been spoken to in confidence ; fur
he was sure their confidence in the Gallant Member aas

only qualified by the supposition that he was t(;
Radical.—(Hear, nni a laugh.) But it appeared now that
the Gallant General had been also in confidential rom-

munication with the Gallant Member who moved the

amendment, and that he had pledged himself to support a
proposition avowedly brought forward to defeat the mea-
sure of his Majesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) Al-
though, no doubt, the Gallant Officer (Sir R. Wilson)
thought that it was not of a hostile tendency.—(Hear,
hear.) But had the Gallant Officer heard the No:,le
Lord opposite last night, who made so much of his little

light—(.' Yes ;" and a laugh)—did he hear the Noble
Lord say that the motion bad been brought forward with
no friendly feeling—althOugh the Noble Lord thought that
no doubt many who were friendly to the 13i11 would sup-
port that unfriendly measure ?—( Hear, hear.) The object
of the social compact entered into tt the confidential
meeting at which the measure was resolved upon, was to
embarrass, and, if possible, to defeat the measure of the
Government.—(Cheers.) He 41 not know what gen-
tlemen were present at that meeting.—(A laugh.) Par-
ties at the other side of the House were strangely mixed.
—(Cheers.) Their motives and principles were strangely
mixed. Their ineasurts seemed carefully calculated not
only to reconcile them to each other, but to catch as in:•n!
stray voters as possible from that (the. Ministerial) s de.
He would ask those gentlemen who were so unwilling
that Ministers should drive the House into a hasty division
—he would ask the Gallant General who introduced the
present amendment, whether, from the time when his mo-

tion was first placed in the notices, it had not undergone
four distinct modification.' ?—(Cries of" Yes, yes.") Well,
thee, yea—(Much noise, and cries of " Hear, and order.")
Would the Gallant General go still farther in his not-con-

fidential communications—(Hear, hear—Yes, yes, apl
cries of " Order")—and tell him whether it had not been
the object of each of those changes to take more certain
means of defeating the Bill than were afforded by this
originally intended measure ?—(Loud cries of -" Hear,
hear, hear.")—Was it not one of the intentions to move V
that the number of the representatives of Great Britain
should not be diminished ; and was there not then a little
idea that it would bring the Bill still more into disfavour,
if the English representation were placed in contrast to
that of Scotland as well as of Ireland ? Was it not thee
resolved to bring the amendment in its present shape, as
he most likely to embarrass and endanger the whole Bill
—( Hear, hear, hear. )—He would also ask the Gallant --
General, hail there been one word said in the dice ,si~o

upon the amendment to prove the inconveniences whi
were apprehended from the altered proper ions of the Ens'
lisp. to the Irish and Scotch repre,entation ? Had th
not, on the contrary, gone over and ovcr the diseu,sion
the principles of the Bill, whereas that principle bp
been already decided by the House, and still mote
eidedly approved of by the whole country ?_(year, hear)