The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES, SErr. 26.

The President took the chair at one o'clock.
The order of the day was the discussion of the
budget of 1831.
M. Las Cases, jun., rose to make some observa-
tions against the salt tax, which, in his opinion,
failed in one of the first qualities of a regular tax.
It did not weigh equally upon all, but fell more
heavily upon the poorer classes than upon the rich.
Nothing, he said, was more unfavourable to the
revolution of July than those taxes which burdened
the poor. The enemies of the present Government
availed themselves of them to injure and destroy it.
The Hon. Member also declared that he conceived
the Government did not contribute sufficiently to
the education of the lower classes.

N. Dubois, sen., said, that instead of petty
economy in details, he wished to see one extensive
Reform in the whole system of Government. He
would not, however, then develop the whole of his
plan, on account of the advanced season of the year.
Many of the State salaries might, however, be re-
duced, and to admit of this, the emulation of those
who were valuable labourers in the affairs of the
nation should be excited. Employments should no
longer
,be given from mere favouritism, but, like
promotions in the army, according to merit arid
services.

The Chamber then proceeded to the discussion of
various articles, which were formally adopted.
The following estimates of receipts were also adopted :
—Cuttings of timber, 25,104,000 f. ; registers, stamps,
and 1'48,944,V00i. ; customs, 148,242,000 f. ;
indirect taxes, 164,727,0001. ; Post-office, 34,343,0001.
lottery, 8,000,000 f.

The sum of 1,400,000 f. being put as the product of
the salt pits in the east,
M. de Mosbourg proposed to carry the estimate to
1,800,0001.

M. de Mosbourg's amendment was carried.
Divers receipts, 28,000,840f.—Adopted.
Extraordinary means, 310,000,000 C—Adopted.
RECEIPTS FOR ORDER.
Justice—Royal Printing-office 1,830,500f.
Public Instruction and Worship—Royal
Council of Public Instruction....
Interior—Tax on Patents 200,000
War—Hotel des Invalide. 3,069,491
Direction-General of gunpowder and salt-

petre
Finances—Legion of Honour 10,230,818
Drawbleli 2,844,180

Total receipts mentioned for order 25,824,937
The total sum set forth in the 3d article, augmented
430,0001. by the amendment of M. de Mesbourg, was
then put and adopted.
Art. 4. Grants are made to the Ministers of the divers
departments, to the amount of 1,172,512,435 f. for the
ordinary and extraordinary expenditure for the public ser-
vice of 1831, in conformity with the annexed schedule B.
The provision grouts made to Ministers, amounting to
825,000,000 f., by the laws of December 12, 1830, and
those of April 18 and August 18, 1831, are and remain
annulled. The Chamber then adjourned.
In the sitting of the preceding day, the Minister
of Commerce moved fur a grant of 18,000,000 f. to
be applied to the relief of the manufacturers, and in
providing employment for the people. He stated
that the existing distress was caused by the riots so
frequent in Paris, and by the apprehension of war.
The recurrence of the former would be prevented by
a new loan about to be proposed, to enable Govern-
ment to send out of Paris such persons as had not
their fixed residence in it. The latter was without
the slightest foundation. War wad hardly within
the range of possibility.

Mr. F. G. KNOWLES, we believe, a profes-
sional gentleman of Shaftesbury, a staunch Reformer, is
likely to come in for Poole withottlopposition.:
NEW WORKS OF FICTION BY DISTIN-
GUISHED WRITERS, JUST PUBLISHED BY HENRY COL-
BURN AND IhCItARD BENTLEY, NEW BURLINGTON-
STREET I-1. " Philip Augustus, or the Brothers in
Arms." By the Author' of " De L'Orme," &c., three
vols. "An admirable sequel to SCOTT'S Tales of the
Crusaders.' " Courier. 2. " The Dutchman's Fire-
side," two vols. " This work stamps the author as second
to few living novelists."—Morning Post. 3. " Jacque-
line of Holland." By the Author of " The Heiress of
Bruges," &c. " Jacqueline of Holland is the very being
in whom romance delights."—Literary Gazette. 4.
" Pin Money." By the Author of " Women as they
Are," three vols. " A very amusing bLok by a very
clever writer."—Spectator.. 5. " The Young Duke."
By the Author of " Vivian Grey," three vols. " Eve!),
body will read these volumes with pleasure. Whatever
Mr. D'IsRAELI does is sure to be cleverly trone."—Atlas.
6. " Mothers and Daughters, a Tale of the Year 1830."
Second Edition, three vols. " One of the most suc-
cessful sketches, extant, of the manners and moralsof high
life,"— Westminster Review. 7. "Bugle Corbet." By
JOHN GAIT, Esq., three vols., "A work of extraordinary
merit."—Spectator. 8. " The Turf," a satirical novel,
two vols. " A spirited expose of the chicaneries of the
Turf."— Globe.

It appears from the departmental journals and
goeunreir)arilivya:pro
ecodrur:esdpobnydetnhceen,
news of
fa t
hpainfulfall
f impression
Warsaw.
Inmany places the inhabitants put on mourning, and en-
twined crape round the tricoloured flag. The Obsei•va-
teur de l'Aisne states that the Duke of ORLEANS, on pass-
ing through Laon last Sunday, was greeted with shouts of
Vice le Ros ! Vive le Duc d'OaLEANs ! Vivent les
Polonais ! Mart aux Ruoes! A has les Ministres !"
The fronts of the houses were hung with tri-coloured flags;
some had crape as a token of mourning for the Poles.
The Prince, in passing a shop where there was a flag
covered with crape, stopped with deep emotion, and took
off hie hat before-French Paper.

As the time approaches for the discussion of the
Reform Bill in the House of Lords, every descrip-
tion of influence and intrigue is put in requisition to
defeat the measure. Nire regret to hear the revival
of a report, that some of the junior branches of the
Royal Family, especially the ladies of that illustrious
House, are taking an active part in opposition to
the wishes of the people, to whose liberality and at.
tachment they are so much indebted for the splendid
position which they enjoy in this country. A more
unfounded rumour—we should rather call it a ca-
lumny—has been circulated also, respecting the opi-
nions and conduct of the Queen on the same sub-
ject. We know that the most effectual refetetion
will be given to these libels, by the votes of the
Peers attached to her Majesty's household, on the
second reading of the Bill. Her Majesty, feelingly
alive to the delicacies and duties of her high station,
has never given the least pretence for the disloyal
ss sus spic
muci sh
- pains whichthe
to
excite, enemies
with
o Re r
ef
gardfotromt have taken
in
ee
rity
:Ministers
heriinis acquiescenceter
shaveconsitn the support
constantly
y receiv w
e dlfiriochm tle present
aigracioiis
Master. We hope the other branches of the family
of all descriptions will reflect in time, and endeavour
to imitate so bright and feminine an example. The
eyes of the nation are on the Court, and all belong-
ing to it, and attached to it; and the people will
know full well how to attribute and appreciate the
influence which the Royal circle must exercise in the
impending trial of strength in the House of Loris.
We make no apology for saying thus much in vindi-
cation of our excellent Queen.—Morning Chronicle.
We have already presented the public with a list
of the county meetings which are taking place
throughout the kingdom on this one day, to peti-
tion the House of Lords to pass the Reform Bill ;
and a grand view the list presents of a whole nation
;n movement ! We cannot be everywhere present,
so that much of what is said by the people of Eng-
land on this most important occasion must be con-
fined to the first hearers. But the Lords, we are
sure, will duly estimate the public feeling. By what
they do hear and read, they will judge of that
which cannot reach them through the mere inade-
quacy of mechanical means. Has there been one
petition from any respectable quarter against the
Bill ? Is there a wish breathed but in its favour
We answer to both questions, not one,—not one, in
the vast population of the British Empire. If every
Member of the House of Peers were a Solon
or a Lycurgus, they could not take upon themselves
the privilege of being so much more enlightened
than their fellow-subjects as to reject a measure
which is the object of every free man's earnest re-
gard. The Reform Bill must pass. Among other
petitions in favour of the Bill, one of a most decided
character has been transmitted to London by the bo-
rough of Tiverton, in Devonshire. It is signed by
nearly 1,100 inhabitants, by far the greatest number
of names affixed to any petition that ever left
that town ; and us a proof of the increased and in.
creasing ardour for the success of the Bill, more than
twice the number of those who signed the petition
to the Commons ! The family of the Ryders is so
connected with the borough of Tiverton, that Lord
Harrowby may be almost called its representative.
There is nothing less pleasing in political life, than
to see the bonds which would unite the great to
their less wealthy neighbours or dependents broken.
Oh that the great would feel the importance of pre-
serving such attachments ! Tiverton will not be
less friendly to the family of the Ryders when the
Bill shall have passed. But should it fall, what
will ensue but scowling discontent, and extinction
of regard ? We would wish noblemen throughout
the kingdom to consider this. The division upon
the second reading will probably not take place till
Tuesday or Wednesday, though the debate begins
on Monday. All will, no doubt, desire to speak ;
but it will, no doubt, be upon the second readiti
that the division will take place, for the Opposition
could hardly keep their numbers together to battle
the provisions of the Bill in detail through the
Committee. The discussion in the Lords last night
is highly interesting, but we must reserve our cos.
meat till te-tnurrnw.--Tinh's.

Notwithstanding Sir Charles 'Wetherell's attempt
to delay the progress of the New Bankruptcy
Courts' Bill, it is to be read a second time to-night.
It is impossible that the good sense of the Howe
can be misled respecting a measure of such import-
ance to the commercial interests of the country; or
that the Legislature will abandon their own deli-
berate and recorded opinion, which has been con•
firmed by the voice of the whole community. If
the Bill encounters any opposition, it will arise from
those nersons who have of late earned their sole
distinction by attempting to thwart whatever has
been proposed for the public good, and will b,; as
futile as their other efforts have been.—Times.
An animated discussion arose in the House of
Lords last night, on the presentation of a petition
by the Lord Chancellor from the city of Edinburgh
in favour of the Reform Bill. This was not the
first occasion upon which the sensitiveness of the.
House of Lords had been shown with respect to
the same measure. A curious question arises upon
this fact. How comes it that the House of Lords
are so sensitive about the Reform Bill, if it be true
as the Anti-Reform Press would persuade us, that
the mass of the people are with respect to it in a
state of indifference and repose ? If the people care
nothing about the Bill, why should the House of
Lords care any thing about it ? why not receive
and reject it with indifference if they are certain
that the rejection will be received with indifference
by the people ? Verily this agitation within doors
is one of the most unreasonable freaks of judgment
that ever any body of men, grave or gay, took into
their heads, if there be no agitation without doors
to give countenance to such an ebullition. When suck
a spirit is manifested by the Peers, and when pe-
titions are pouring in from all quarters in favour of the
Bill, we may surely infer, without rashness, that the
anxiety of the nation is strained to a high pitch,
though there are persons to be found who will say
and swear it is no such thing. Passing over that
more general question, however, for the present,
we would direct the attentien of our readers to the
particular features of the debate, from which they
will find how quickly a certain phalanx took the
alarm at being suspected or harbouring just notions
of Reform. But it turned out that those of their
Lordships who were supposed by the Lord Chan-
cellor,on the evidence of their own expressions, to
be coining round to Reform, were only Scotch Rs,
formers. They thought the principle would work
well enough on tha other side of the Tweed, but to
think of applying it on this side was nothing short of
revolution. Lord Wynford, who, like Lord Cae•
!larvae, was once a Reformer, went as far as we be-
lieve any Noble Lord is likely to go in advocating;
the contrary of Reform. It is one of the pecu-
liarities of the question, and it speaks volumes in
favour of the principle, that every man is now a
Reformer by his own account. But professiens will
not do in the present case ; the Bill is the test
by which the people of England have resolved to tiy
the practical efficiency of professed Reformers. The
House of Lords seemed to enter into this feeling
last night when they burst into a loud chetr et
hearing Lord Wynford disclaim the title of Anti-
Reformer for himself. But, whatever his Lordship
and the other Noble Lords who agree with him in
opinion may say, it is plain enough that their con-
sistency us Reformers will be put to a sharp trial
before long. The Lord Chancellor, on presenting
the city of London petition, gave some intimation
of this in the spirited speech with which he intro-
duced it; but, though we have strong confidence
that the decision of the House of Lords will be such
discussion of
ieaaeddabnc: about
as its beisitaifirvieidnldlasi wiontsirladnseveissh
expect
ridicule
o a
stance of the
ar
pe dr
o to
gsturcelsitiaosn
itselfrioth
Yengperal exe.tes
tempt. We regret to addo that,
Belgium, the Marquisp
incgoullidutretshceuehaafstLfumil imp
3 carried away in the flood.
ment, his discretion
that, so far from buy: eseap:edErtilmer gr

This part of the night's proceedings will give the
greatest pain to those who are most desirous that
the dignity and character of the House should be
supported.—Morning Herald.
The support and sanction which the Casimir
Perier system of policy has received in the Chamber
of Deputies might be considered, as the French and
English Ministerial journals would make us believe,
a strong proof of the stability of the present French
Administration, if the Chamber of Deputies really
represented the sentiments and enjoyed the confi-
dence of the country. But whoever would ascer-
tain the feelings and the opinions of France, upon any
great question of foreign or domestic policy, must
not seek for them in the decisions of the majority
of a legislative assembly elected under a system
which renders it impossible that it should repre-
sent the nation. If it be necessary to the pros-
perity of England that she should have a House
of Commons chosen not to perform the commands
of the few, but to express the sentiments and con-
sult for the interests of the many, it is still more ne-
cessary for the welfare of France that her Chamber
of Deputies should be really elected by the people,
whom only, in virtue of a political fiction, they
are now supposed to represent. Under the present
limitations of the elective franchise, the number of
electors in France—a country having a population
of upwards of 32 millions, is considerably fewer than
those who are entitled in England—a country pos-
sessing something better than twenty millions, to
return Members to an unreformed House of Com-
mons. Here is the key to the decisions of the
Chamber of Deputies in the recent debates on the
juste-milieu policy of Casimir Perier. It is worth
observing that some of our journals, which affect not
merely a violent but a furious zeal in the cause of
Reform in our Parliament, because the English Par-
liament, as at present constituted, does not and
cannot represent the opinions and interests of the
whole nation, appeal to the decisions of the Chamber
of Deputies at Paris, as conclusive of questions
that deeply agitate the feelings of all France.
We know that when those very journals sup-
ported the Duke of Wellington's Administra-
tion as vehemently as they now support a
Whig Administration, and when the Duke's Mi-
nistry carried their measures in the unreformed
rouse of Commons with sweeping majorities, that
very Administration was rapidly sinking in public
opinion, and losing the only true source of the
strength of any Government—the confidence of the
country. It is true that the Duke of Wellington
was at last beaten by the vote of an unreformed
Parliament, but not until the feeling of the country
became so strong and universal against his Admi-
nistration that even the " omnipotence" of Parlia-
ment thought it unsafe any longer to resist it.
Casimir Perier is not a better Statesman than the
Duke of Wellington. He has not the splendid
fame which gave even the political ascendancy of
the latter, for a time, a charm in the eyes of the
nation—his policy has been more feeble, temporising,
and dishonest than that of the Duke--yet the latter,
supported as he long was by Parliamentary ma-
orities, was overthrown by the force of public opi-
nion. Greater, indeed, must that man be than
Casimir Perier, who can long withstand that mighty
power.—illoening Herald.
The Anti-Reformers are utterly ashamed of the
state of the representation of Scotland. They have,
therefore, deemed it prudent to throw Scotland
fairly overboard. The Lord Chancellor drew from
Lord Wharucliffe the confession that Scotland was
too bad, and he rallied his Lordship on his admission
to some purpose. A number of important petitions
were last night presented by his Lordship. The first
on the list was that of Edinburgh, signed by exactly
the whole of the adult popul ,tion, the proportion of
males between sixteen and sixty in any given popu-
lation being exactly the prepertion of the Edinburgh
population signing the petition. His Lordship,
who knows the Scotch well, observed, that the
change which had taken place in Edinburgh was no
;natter of surprise to him. " During the last 20
years the subject had been repeatedly discussed, and
if inch considered r. and thi, could not fail to have its
effect on the sound, solid, and thinking people of
Scotland, who were less liable to be led away by any
sudden impale—less liable to be the prey of fac-
tion—less Fable to be tools and dupes in the hands
of designing men, than any other people on the
}ace of the earth. It was quite natural that they,
after the fullest and most mature deliberation, should
give their earnest and most decided support to
the measures of Government for Effecting the
great and important object of Reform in the Parlia-
mentary representation.—(Hear, hear.)" His Lord-
ship might, with at least equal truth, have added,
that the Scotch are the most obstinate of any
people on the face of the earth ; for we should sup-
pose it about one of the most difficult of all projects
to drive Scotchmen from any purpose which they
have once determined to carry. They do not lightly
move; but when once they are in motion, it is no
easy matter to stop them. Aware of this feature of
their character, and aware that they are united to a
man in support of the Reform Bill, the Anti-Re-
formers connected with Scotland have changed their
tactics with regard to them, with a view, no doubt,
to detach them from the cause. The new policy
was first indicated by Lord Wharncliffe, who is of
Scotch deseent,and well acquainted with the country.
" He was ready (he said) to confess, that although
the English Reform Bill should be rejected, he
would still be not unwilling to adopt some measure of
Reform, in regard to the representation of Scotland.
--(Hear, from the Ministerial benches.) He would
join in that cheer, far he was ready to admit that the
state of the Scotch representation did constitute a case
for Ileform.—(Hear.) If he voted for the rejection of
the English Reform Bill, he was not therefore to be
pointed at as one whoheld the opinion that the state of
the representation of Scotland required no Reform, and
he protested against any such conclusion being drawn
from his vote." 'Flue meaning of this is, good
people of Scotland, do not be in. the least agitated
if you should hear that the English Reform Bill is
thrown out, for we shall give you a separate Re-
form. Our object is, that the Reform shall not put
an end to the corrupt expenditure, and if we can
only prevent Reform in England, we may be in-
duced to concede it to you, because, with the re-
presentation in Englauci unreformed, your votes
cannot prevent the continuance of the corrupt expen-
diture, and therefore we can afford to be liberal to
you. Does his Lordship think the Scotch such fools
as to be gulled by such a paltry device? 0 no,
the Scotch know that without a Reform in Eng-
land, their Reform would avail them but little, The
Lord Chancellor observed, that the admission to
him was most refreshing, that Scotland was too
bad to be defended, even by the Anti-Reformers,
and then rallied his Lordship unmercifully on the
distinction drawn between Scotland and Old Sarum
and Gatton. " If the old system in Scotland tves
to come tumbling down, why should Old Saturn
and Gatton continue to send Members to Parlia-
ment ?" Lard Melville admitted now what he
never admitted before, that " it would be desirable
to put an end to those votes that were unconnected
with property." Aye, good my Lord, but who
made it desirable ? Was this desire the result of
intimidation ?—illorning Chronicle.
While the enemies of our revered institutions are
bringing up their artillery, and preparing for a ruth-
less assault on the last strong hold of the Constitu-
tion, a shell has expk.s.ded in their own arsenal, bid-
ding fair, unless we deceive ourselves, to give a dif-
ferent aspect to the combat, A pamphlet, entitled
Whig Fraud and English Folly, is now selling ra-
in which the ceetbor,
pidly in the streets of Condor,,
whoever lie may be, liked a.ngoesel sportsman, and
strait up to his gone, !in. et di.rect and
ch.:oges lt‘lienistee-rnsthei gross
unequivocal terms the scve-
covin and perfidy towards
was brought home
to the door of any man, we fearlessiy assert that
the author has succeeded in fixing it on Lord
Grey's Government.. We have Always seen
.that
the scheme of the Whig Bill way to r°l,) alike
the Tories and the people, throwing a Omar! share

of the plunder to the trading classes by way of pro- ,
tecting the Whig Grandees in the secure possession
of the remainder. Thus, for instance, schedule A and
schedule B on the one hand, and the rights of free-
men and scot and lot voters on the other, are equally
sacrificed to secure Lord -Milton* in the impregnable
possession of Peterborough and Malton, of one
seat at least for mutilated Northamptonshire, be-
sides vast indirect influence in Barnsley, Ro-
therm, Wakefield, and other new boroughs in
the West Riding, and vast direct influence
in the representation of the West Riding itself.
We must confess, however, that we had no idea
of the extent to which these pseudo-patriots had
ventured to plunder the people until we read this
pamphlet. The first charge.the author advances is
that the system of registration, which he, when the
clause was under consideration, clearly sheaved
would effect no saving of expense, is a mere juggle,
introduced for the purpose of indirectly exacting
such a length of occupation as will practically dis-
franchise three-fourths of the lower classes of ten-
pound voters. By the common law every man paying
scot and lot was entitled to vote, without reference
to the length of time he had been in occupation.
The 2Gth Geo. 111. required six months' residence to
prevent occasionality ; and now it appears by the
trickery of this system of registration, the six months
is to be converted into a period varying between 21
and 32 months; on a mean, therefore, 261 months !
By similar reasoning the author shows that the
receipt of parish relief operates, by aid of the same
juggle, as a disability for a period varying between
21 and 32 months ; on a mean, therefore, as be-
fore, 261 months. The slightest reflection must
satisfy instantly every practical man that the joint
operation of these two principles will prevent the
poorer class of 101. occupiers from giving above
one or two votes in the course of their lives.
But the most amusing trick that has been played
the people by these well-intentioned Ministers re-
mains to be noticed. 'While John Cam Hobliouse
and Westminster's Glory were exhibiting their
antics in Covent-garden Market to their scot and lot
constituency, some crafty lawyer, of course not
Sir Thomas Delman, managed to smuggle a clause
into the Bill which tears up by the roots the scot
and lot franchise, together with the whole genus of
inhabitants, potwallopers, &c., in spite of the solemn
contract into which Ministers had entered to pre-
serve these rights to those who at present enjoy
them. Such are the exposures in which this little
work abounds; all of them, as the author says with
some triumph, furnished by one single clause in the
Bill; and such is the concoction of folly and fraud
which has been sent up by a majority of 109 votes
for the passive approval of the Lords ; and this
is the House of Commons that represents the
intelligence, and has at heart the interests of
the people, beyond any House of Commons
that ever assembled within the walls of St. Stephen's.
We have now performed our duty in commenting
on this work, and it is, therefore, our privilege to
advert to the duty which devolves on others. A
few pounds will suffice to circulate this pamphlet
from one end of the country to the other. Let not a
moment be lost. By to-night's mail let packages of
100 copies each go out to every Union in England.
Their sword we are assured glitters over the head of
the hereditary Aristocracy of the realm; before the
stroke descends let them be told in the language of
truth on whom its edge will ultimately alight. Let
the artiians of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle,
Manchester, Birmingham, Norwich, and the other
proud sources of tire nation's wealth, if they are
.bout to resist the Constitutional authority of the
Lords, know at least in what cause they are about
to unfurl the banners of rebellion. We " know
their generous natures," and fear them not if their
minds are disabused. Before we conclude, Vi e owe
our tribute to the author of this work. 'Whoever
he may be, however much we may differ perhaps
from his general views, we are ready to give him
the praise of having done his country good service.
His succour is well-timed ; he has thrown himself
into the thick of the fight at the moment when
courage alone is wanting to turn the balance of vic-
tory. 'Whoever, therefore, he may be, though we
may be travelling different roads, from our souls we
wish him " God speed." His Wrapons are the
weapons of truth : by truth we are ready to stand
or fall. It is not by truth that we have been endan-
gered, but by the covin and perfidy which he has so
ably exposed.—/Iforning Post.

This Nobleman, by the way, if the Bill is thrown
out (as it most assuredly will be), has, if we are rightly
informed, intimated his intention of playing off some of
his fantastic, out-of-date Whig tricks. We wait with cu-
riosity to see in what terms of hallowed invocation the
great boroughmouger of the new system will call upon the
nation to accelerate the coming of his kingdom.

SECOND EDITION.
SUN OFFICE, Seven o'clock.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

THIS EVENING.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took his seat at Half-past Three o'clock.
Lord INGESTRIE presented a petition from Mr. John
Sisson, of the city of Dublin, setting forth the evils which
at present afflict Ireland, and praying for the appointment
of a Board of unpaid Commissioners, to examine and re-
port upon the state of that country.
After a few observations from Mr. LEADER and Mr.
RUTIIVEN, the petition was ordered to lie on the table.
On the motion of Mr. HOL7kIES, a new writ was ordered
for the borough of Dorchester, in the room of Lord
Ashley, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Sir J. NEWPORT presented a petition from an inha-
bitant rate-payer of the parish of St. George in the county
of Dublin, complaining of the conduct of the Trustees of
that Church, and stating, that without any previous notice
he had been recently proceeded against for no less than 22
years arrears of church building rate, of the existence of
which he previously knew nothing. The Hon. Baronet
went into a statement of the expense of this church, which
cost nearly 100,0001., being five times the amount of the
original estimate, and contended that the Trustees should
be compelled to account for the appropriation of so large a
sum of money.
Mr. O'CONNELL assured the House that this case
was one of the grossest exaction, and he entreated his
Majesty's Government to institute au inquiry, so that if
the facts stated were borne out, the law officers of the
Crown might be instructed to tile an injunction against the
Trustees, to prevent the prosecution of their claims upon
the rate-payers until all the accounts were produced.
Mr. CRAMPTON uromised that the law officers of the
Irish Government we I give the subject their most atten-
tive con:iideration.—(Hear.)
The petitiGu was laid on the table, and ordered to be
printed.

VESTRIES' BILL.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE moved the order of the day for the
House resolving itself into a Committee on the Bill for
the regulation and appointment of Vestries.
Mr. HUME begged to be allowed this opportunity to
preseot a petition from the parish of St. Pancras, in sup-
port cf this hill, end praying the House to pass it with-
out delay.—Ordered to be upon the table.
Colonel LINDSAY, previous to the Speaker's leaving
the chair, begged to advert to a statement made by the
lion/ Member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) on a former
night, en the presentation of a petition upon this subject.
That Hon. 'Member, he understood, had been made to
.;ay, that he had as well as others refused to pay
the rates levied by the Selret Vestry. With respect
to the statement that the rates had been levied illegally,
that was not the case, the rates had been due at Christmas
last, and the parties had been legally summoned for thFin,
but the collector not wishing to put the law in force with-
held the warrants until lately, when they were issued, and
the goods of several were seized, but the sole of them was
prevented by the assemblage of great numbers of persons.
He (Colonel Lindsay) had applied to the collector toknow
if it: were true that the Hon. Member for Middlesex had
refused to paut the rates, and he learnt that it was not. It
Id,bowerer ,0
0
lorttletrl:
refused to pay the
t refused,had and looking
tor him a,, anexample, rates
likewise. lie therefore took this occasion on the part of
the Select Vestry to give
ytlhae,plipte:en.-.l:slecienbienr
oradnnenprortu-
nity of correcting that rnis-statement. He belonged to
(ir.tt.hs.ollett
tire Select Vestry of Mat
wine of the sub.
but be did '
the appointment, be accepted
might endeavour, if possible, to remedy

jects complained of. The Select Vestry were anxious
that all future Vestries should be elected by the rate-payers,
and therefore they did not in that respect oppose the pre-
sent Bill, introduced by the Hon. Member for Westmin-
ster. In all other respects they conceived they were justi-
fied in opposing the measure, because they conceived it
was inapplicable to the metropolitan parishes. In that
he (Colonel Lindsay) perfectly agreed with them.
Mr. HUME said it was true that in the report of what
he had stated on the occasion alluded to by the Hon. and
Gallant Colonel there was a little mistake. He did not
say he hail refused to pay the rates. He had seen the
collector, who called upon him to represent the state
in which the parish was, and the prospect of a breach
of the peace being committed, and he in consequence
wrote to the Secretary of State for the Home Department
upon the subject. He certainly had stated that he
concurred in the prayer of the petitioners, who
stated they would not pay rates levied by an
irresponsible body, and appropriated illegally. The Hon.
and Gallant Member did not deny that the goods of many of
the rate payers had been distrained, and that no broker
had been found to sell them by auction. The state of
rancour and dissatisfaction in that parish was at its ut-
most height. He strongly complained, not of individuals,
but of the vestry system, and he hoped that good order
and peace would be speedily restored in the parish. He
had one of the resolutions agreed to unanimously, which
declared that one and all at a public meeting would not
pay a single rate. The parish of Marylebone was not
singular in this respect, the parish of Islington was simi-
larly situated, and indeed there was scarcely a parish in
London which was not almost in a state of civil war.
Mr. HUNT wished to ask a question at the Secretary
of State for the Home Department, whether any inquiry
had been made, or proceedings adopted, relative to a pau-
per of the name of Somers, who, on a late occasion, when
brought before Mr. Walker at Lambeth-street, had been
sent to the House of Correction to hard labour, and had
died, according to the verdict of the Jury, from starvation.
Mr. LAMB stated that the inquiries he had made sa-
tisfied his own mind, that although the individual referred
to had died from starvation, it was not in consequence of
the refusal of assistance by any parish officer.
On the motion of Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE, the House
went into Committee on the Select Vestries Bill.
Mr. PROTHEROE suggested a verbal amendment,
which was acceded to.
Lord ALTHORP moved as an amendment, that
in place of a simple majority, two-thirds of the
parish should be had in its favour, before the introduction
of this change, was to be considered obligatory.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE stated, that it would be most
difficult to gain such a majority as two-thirds in any pa-
rish upon almost any subject, and he therefore hoped that
the amendment would not be pressed. A simple majority,
he submitted, was all that should be required. He had been
recommended by some to make the Bill imperative upon
every parish, but thinking that impracticable, he wished
every facility to he afforded to its general adoption.
Mr. J. CAMPBELL considered the Select Vestry sys-
tem fruitful in jobbing, and detestible in itself. Continual
encroachments and complaints were produced by it, and
the sooner a complete and final end was put to it the better.
Lord ALTHORP said, no man could object more
strongly than he did, to the disgraceful system of the
close Vestries. It was certainly, therefore, in his view
desirable that a system much less objectionable should be
adopted ; in some cases, however, it appeared that close
Vestries did actually work well, and where an extensive
alteration in the entire parochial system was proposed, it
would be well, he thought, if the approbation of a great
may,rity of the parish were obtained previous to its in-
troduction. This was the principle on which his amend-
mea t proceeded.
Mr. HUME hoped the Noble Lord would not persevere
in his amendment. It would be extremely difficult to get
the majority of two-thirds in any parish to vote in favour
of any change, s,) completely were the parishioners under
the controul of the Select Vestry.
Mr. PROTHEROE deemed the Select Vestry system
so abominable and, so contrary to the principles
of all good government, that he would have the Bill intro-
duced into every parish upon a bare majority.
Mr. HUNT took the same view.
Lord ALTHORP did not wish to press his amendment
against the general sense of Hon. Members.
Mr. ESTCOURT expressed his desire that the Noble
Lord would persevere in his amendment.
Mr. BYNG thought the most straightforward and
honest way was to allow all the rate-payers to have a vote,
although he' staitainly considered th it to demand two-
thirds of .majority was not too much.
Mr. LAMB was decidedly of opinion that his Noble
Friend's amendment ought to be adopted.
Lord ALTHORP was quite satisfied that there
ought at least to be a decided majority of the
parishes in favour of the change before it was introduced.
Sir J. C. 110BHOUSE explained. The Bill did not
propose to alter the constitution of parishes so much as
was supposed, although the original Bill did. The
change would only be partial at first, but progres-
sive. Even when it was introduced the former Ves-
try would still remain in office, at least they would
only go out by thirds every succeeding year, so
that it would be four years, even where the Bill
was adopted before it would come into full operation. The
main object proposed by the Bill was, that each parish
should have the power of choosing those who were to rate
them.
Mr. FERGUSON recommended the imperative adop-
tion of the measure.
Sir C. WETHERELL objected to the Bill, as allowing
persons who paid only a rate of a few shillings the same
power and the same privileges as those who paid as many
pounds. It could not be said that that was equalizing the
interests of the inhabitants of a parish. In many parishes
it was not the practice to put into the rate the very
inferior tenant', but this Bill would give 100 voters of ss.
a-head each, the same power and interest as 100 persons
paying as many pounds.
Mr. HUNT was in favour of the Bill, but he was con-
vinced the good order would not be restored in any parish
until Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act was wholly repealed.._.
(Cries of " Question.")
Mr. CAMPBELL had heard it laid down by Lord
Tenterdon over and over again, that by the common law
of the land every rate-payer should be entitled to vote in
parish affairs.
Sir C. FORBES spoke against the Bill.
Sir R. V Y VAN disapproved of the Select Vestry sys-
tem, but though to a certain extent an Anti-Reformer, he
should not oppose this Bill, which gave to the rate-payer
the power of voting for the election of vestrymen.
After a few words from Colonel LINASAY, the gallery
was cleared for a division.
We understood that during the time the doors were
closed, another amendment was made that the majority in
the parish should be three-fifths, instead of two-third,.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For a majority of two-thirds 37
Fur that of three-fifths 62
Majority —25
On our re-admission into the gallery, several clauses
were put and agreed to.
Sir R. VYVYAN rose to move as an amendment to
one of the clauses, that no person should possess more
Iliad six votes, which was a similar number to that pro-
posed by Mr. S. Bourne's Act.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE stated that that was the great
evil which was now so generally complained of. Ilv con-
sidered that property would be sufficiently protected by
persons having one vote each, and strongly- objected to
those accumulated votes.
Mr. STRICKLAND rose, and was left speaking.