The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-19 00:00:00

ASTLE Y'S AMPHITHEATRE.

The new grand spectacle, entitled the White Maiden
of California, is quite a hit, and backed up as it is by
the equestrian performances of the first artistes in the
world, draws crowds to this favourite place of amuse-
ment every evening. We understand that Mr. Batty
has recently purchased an elephant, which arrived from
the East Indies by the ship Barham a few days since,
and which will be introduced to the public so soon as his
education shall be perfected.

CHINA.
(From the China Mail of Feb. 26.)
The conference between the British and Chinese Ple-
nipotentiaries took place on Saturday, the 17th instant,
in Anson's Bay, on board the flag-ship Hastings, where
Seu was received under a salute from all the ships.
These consisted of, besides the flag-ship, the sloop Arab,
and the Medea, Fury, and Phlegethon war-steamers.
lied the Inflexible returned in time, she also would have
proceeded to the Bogue. This display was probably in-
tended to convince the Chinese Commissioner that, if it
should be necessary to assert our rights by force, resist-
ance on his part would be vain. It may therefore be of
advantage to state the substance of the information we
have received on the subject of the conference.

The question of opening the city on the 6th of April
wa.s of, course the main topic of discussion ; and after a
1,04 discussion, in which Seu stated his inability to gua-
rantee the forbearance of the mob, it was arranged that
he should refer the matter to Peking for the purpose of
obtaining an Imperial edict, setting forth our right, and
enjoining respect to it.
If this be a correct estimate of the question, the Im-
perial edict now waited fur would' greatly facilitate
foreign intercourse to the city ; but it is too much to
expect that it will have the effect of removing the anti-
pathies of generations, or securing a cordial reception or
even immunity from insult. These can only be the slow
fruit of mutual forbearance. The reply from Peking
may be expected in little more than a month ;
.and as
Keying is the Minister most likely to be consulted in the
matter, there is every reason to believe that the answer
will be a favourable one. •
This, though the .chief subject discussed during the
conference, was not the only one ; others of more real
importance were broached, such as building ground,
transit duties, and the state of the coasting trade, but
we believe without anything being positively arranged.
At the close of a long conference, Seu was conducted
to a banquet, at which a large party of British and
Chinese were present. Next day the Governor, the
Admiral, and their respective suites, partook of an en-
tertainment on board Seu's barge ; and the party
separated with expressions and every appearance of
good-will.

ITALIAN OPERA, COVENT GARDEN.--A meeting
of holders of debentures in this theatre was held on
Tuesday, at the Albion, Great Russell-street, to take
into consideration the most desirable steps to be adopted
in order to obtain a removal of the restrictions against
their admission that had been adopted,by the manage-
ment of the Italian Opera. Mr. Eaton occupied the
chair. There were altogether about thirty gentlemen
present. It appeared, from the proceedings, that the
theatre was built by means of debentures of 200 L -each,
one of the conditions of which was that every holder of
a debenture should be entitled to a free admission to all
performances whatever in the theatre, and to all parts of
the house, except the private boxes. It was alleged that
this condition had been so far restricted that the deben-
ture holders had now only an admission to a
means
nanof
s
the pit and gallery. The pit bad been divided aby
ate
that
re
of stalls, and the gallery by the conversion of part
,b i
hanoldaemrsphhaitdhebaeterne,exfreolenade,ril,ltowf
was
svahliece eththate debenture
ob-
struction had been thrown in the way of their admission
even into these portions. On the motion of Mr. Silk it
was unanimously resolved, that a deputation, consisting
of Mr. Silk, Mr. Barber, and Mr. Marden, should watt
upon Mr. Delnfield, the manager, and state to him the
grievances of which they complained, and afterwards
submit to an adjourned meeting, to be held on the even-
ing of the 24th inst., the result of their interview.
Mr. Charles Mathews has, we learn, engaged Mr.
w. J. llurlstone, who so successfully appeared in the
amateur performance of the Whittington Club. Lie is
to make his first appearance shortly, in
—Why does uthne ewfaree.
RATHER NEAT, Ea business?
of
the country get on so slowly? Because it travels by a
Parliamentary train .-1" u ch.
Plas.o Y.—SIN GA rou E, MARCH 6.—The Kestrel,
Bremmer, from Newcastle, which arrived here on the
16th ult., was plundered by a pirate
0 tons, and a crew of about
21a0t. 22 S., long. 20 W. 90
o brigantine, of about
hands, 22d Nov. last, in
The_Earl of Liverpool has arrived at Fife House,
iniz Buzsed 13.04 gwan, AN the IVIVIOA.

NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. S V

_ _- -- - -- - -
APPOINTMENTS. /`,.':i Iji
Mr. Biddlecombe, the master of the St. Vincent, who el (,7,./ E-F,;•::--
Tial-noW Completed a continuous term of service -of-2
1.4 :- ' ' • '::C.:
years afloat, accepted and took up his appojntmento A .-.1 k. ',.:.
y esterday, to the Roy al yacht Victoria and Albert. 11 --3, ;'::.•-.
Mate—John H. Glover, to the Volage, surveying \s,i..lf:::-..
vessel, in the Mediterranean. V 4
Midshipman—James llarris, to the Ganges, 84, at ',Arr-u :
Cork. , 4,.ei.

ndEeßnli N
cAe N
fromE A
MaltaS TA TI ONd
0. w n
to
We have coTnErrmesEpDorT
last
Wednesday afternoon, the llth inst.
The Hibernia, 104, Captain C. Wise, with the flag of
the Vice-Admiral commanding in-chief, and the Cale-
donia, 120, Captain T. W. Carter, were hourly expected
at Malta, from Naples, when the latter would receive
the Admiral's flag, and the Hibernia will come to De-
vonport to be paid oft The Howe, 120, Captain Sir
James Stirling; Powerful, 84, Captain the Hun. It. S.
Dundas, C. 8.; and the Thetis, 36, Captain Codring-
ton, were also expected to return to Malta, to him,*
refit. The Admiral, in connexion with the 'tear-
Admiral Superintendent, is to revise the dockyard and
victualling establishment at Malta.
The Queen, 110, Captain Bruce, had left Naples, fur
England direct. To the demand of her officers for leave
to touch at Malta, to pay off their debts, Sir William
Parker—having received expressed orders to send her
home direct—was compelled to give a refusal. She was
spoken by the Caledonia on her way.
The Volage, 22, surveying-vessel, Captain Graves,
bound to Athens and Cypress, was ready for sea at
Malta, and was to leave fur Cyprus on the arrival of the
mail fur India.

The Racer, 12, Commander Beddoes, arrived at Malta
on the night of the 2d instant, from Plymouth, having
had a capital run out. She left again on the morning
of the .sth, to join the Admiral, and then to relieve the
Spartan, 24, Captain Symonds, in the Adriatic, ordered
to England to be paid off.
The Apollo, 8, troop sloop, Commander Rawstorne,
arrived at Corfu on Wednesday last, and was to leave
the following day for England, embarking supernume-
raries and stores. Mr. Braund, late acting master of
the Volcano, paid off at Malts, takes passage in her.
The Bulldog, 6, steam-sloop, Commander A. C.
Key, arrived at Malta, on the 10th, with refugees from
Catania and Syracuse, and having coaled, returned to
the coast of Sicily, to watch the progress of events.
The Sharpshooter, 6, screw-schooner, Lieut.-Com-
mander Bailey, was sent to Colin.
The Oberon, 3, steam•'Vessel, Lieut.-Commander Gar-
diner, arrived at Malta on the Bth, from Naples and the
coast of Sicily. She was docked at Malta, on the 9th, to
have her bottom cleared, having againfallen off in speed.
The Merlin, 3, steam-packet, Lieut.• Commander J.
H. Turner, was waiting at Malta on Wednesday last to
convey the outward India mail to Alexandria, on the
arrival of the Medusa, 3, steam packet, Lieut.-Comman-
der Bathurst, from Marseilles.

Lieut. Crang, late commander of the Volcano steam-
vessel, who has been in England on paying off the crew
of that vessel, has returned to Malta, where he will re-
side for some time with the family of his newly-married
wife.

Clerk's Assistant.—George Brown, son of Mr. W.
Brown, the much-respected Secretary to the Rear-Ad-
miral Superintendent at Malta, has bees appointed by
the Commander-in-Chief to the Medina, steam-packet.
A soldier named Copplestone, a private of her Ma-
jesty's 44th Regiment, was accidentally drowned on
Sunday by the upsetting of a boat, or rather from the
consequences, for he had actually reached the landing-
place, and was holding on to the steps, when a boat
bastening to his assistance, having too much way, and
not backing water with sufficient strength, caused him
to fell into the sea again, from which he was picked up
on the following morning. A magisterial inquiry took
place, and the sad business was proved to be accidental.
PORTSMOUTH, WEDNESDAT.—By a letter from China
we are informed that, in consequence of Captain J. N.
Campbell, of the Melampus, 42, having been invalided
(since dead), Sir Francis Collier, Commander•in Chief
on the China station, has made the following promotions
and appointments:—
Commander Mason, of the Medea steam-sloop, to be
Captain of the Melampus, vice Campbell.
Lieutenant Nicolas Lockyer, Flag-Lieutenant to Sir
Francis, to be Commander, and appointed to the Medea,
vice Mason.

Lieutenant G. Hancock, Second Lieutenant of the
Hastings, to be Flag-Lieutenant, vice Lock.) er, pro-
moted.

Lieutenant Tattenham, additional Lieutenant of the
Hastings, has obtained leave to return to England on
private affairs.

- Lieutenant Edward Narea, of the Hastings, is ap-
pointed to the Arab, vice Janson, appointed Flag-
Lieutenant to Commodore Fanshawe, on the coast of
Africa. Mr. Johnson left Hong-Kong for St. Helena a
few days prior to the 28th of February, in the Black-
friars merchantman.

The Meander, 44, Captain the Hon. li. Keppel, and
the Albatross, 16, Commander Farquhar, were expected
at Hong-Kong in March. Squadron all well.
We have also the pleasure of announcing the promo-
tion of Lieutenant Pnelps, Flag-Lieutenant to Charles
Napier, to tho rank of Commander. Captain Phelps
entered the navy in 1832; served against the Kafirs in
the irruption they made into the colony of the Cape of
Good Hope; was mate of the Powerful, 84, and employed
on shore during the Syrian war, and Wes also at the
taking of St. Jean d'Acre; served in the Cornwallis, 72,
in the war with China, and his services were officially
mentioned at the capture of the city of Chin-Kiang-Foo,
for which he was promoted; was employed in the hostile
operations carried on by the combined English and
French squadrons in the Parana, and was twice severely
wounded there in the head and thigh, but for which he
receives no compensation.
Mr. George Biddlecombe, Master, R.N., is appointed
from the St. Vincent, 120, to the royal yacht Victoria
and Albert—an net reflecting great credit
.on the First
Lord of the Admiralty, as will be seen from the following
epitome of Mr. Biddlecom be's services:—
He has been constantly at sea 26 years, and served in
most parts of the world; was in the war of A v .; on the
surrey of the west coast of Africa, where he met with a,
serious ihj cry ; at the siege of Oporto in her Majesty's ship
../Etna; employed in the Brazils, Pacific, and South Sea
Islands several years; in the Mediterranean he surveyed
numerous places in the lonian Islands; then proceeded
to Constantinople, where he surveyed parts of the Dar-
danelles and Bosphorus; examined the south shore of
the Black Sea to Trebisond; bsisted at the heaving up
of one of the Royal Danube Steam Company's vessels
which bad been wrecked, for which service the company
presented him with a gold watch; was in Syria, and
surveyed Acre previous to the bombardment, and was
in the engagement as master of the Talbot; afterwards
ordered to survey the Keith and Sherki shoals, for
which, when finished, be received the thanks of the
Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty ; went to Ja-
maica in the Imaum, and was employed at the dockyard
at Port Royal upwards of two years, during which time
he surveyed the harbours of Port Royal and Kingston,
for which lie received the thanks of the Admiralty.
The merchants of the city of Kingston presputed
him an addrtss accompanied with a chronometer,
through the Commander-in-Chief; and the saayor and
common council of that city gave him a vote of ti.anks
for the improvement ho made in the navigation of that
p,rt, having saved several vessels from being wrecked
from his knowledge of the different channels. His Ex-
cellercy the Earl of Elgin, Governor of Jamaica, wrote
to him a letter on leaving, expressing his high approba-
tion for the services he had rendered at that place. He
was appointed to the Trafalgar flag-ship at the Nore,
which vessel was sent to cruise in the ex-
perimental squadron. Soon after he was ap-
pointed master of the St. Vincent ; served under
Sir Francis Collier ; and then returned as flag-
ship at Portsmouth, under Admiral Sir G. Ogle for a
few months, during which time he was sent to examine
and survey when the Sphynx was on shore at the
Isle of Wight, which he completed, and received the
thanks of the Admiralty. The St. Vincent hoisted the
flag of Riar-Admiral Sir C. Napier, in 1847, with the
experimental squadron, where ho has been employed up
to this time. Ile had the honour of .being in charge of
the St. Vincent as master and pilot when her Majesty
and Prince Albert went from Spithead to the Nab in
her, the only liee•of battle ship her Majesty has been
under way in. He had also the honour to take charge of
the Howe, with her Majesty the Queen Dowager on
board, and pilot her into the Tagus, having previously
surveyed that river, and received the thanks of the ror
tuguese Government for that service.

Wind—N.W., fresh breezes and cloudy weather.

TO THE EDITOR OF TILE SUN.

SlA,—Thanks, thanks, in the name of humanity, for
your generous attempt to save the wretched young crea-
ture of eighteen years from the death of the gallows on
Friday. The fourfold murderer, the matured malignant
can suffer no more than the penalty exacted from this
young girl, and against the recommendation of the jury!
UMANITAS.
Regent-street, Wednesday Morning.

hEalsl-•Etq ' ROYAL WESTERN YACHT CLUB, PLYMOUTH.
The following gentlemen have been elected members of
this club :—Lord Somerton, M.P., London; Hugh
Kerenfto„rt.:RS.saTTel. Cox,
Bire 4 Sir W it-
been elected
W. Dickson, Bart.; the Rev. R. I'. Carew, and -.
Sir
Henry Coryton, R.N. The following have
Loma t
Snowf or d ,
lEI Es q., i
BE!
Captain
temporary members:—Lieutenant Far
Lieute-
nant Collings, of the 82d inegimen t Farmer and
G. Grey, BE. A special me , and Lieutenant C.
27th inst., to consider the eting will be held on the
pr
building, rendered necessary by the great accesssion of
member:, the club being particularly attractive to yachts-
men and strangers during the season.
LONDON SOCIETY FOR TEACHING THE BLIND TO
READ —Yesterday the newly erected
institution, situated in the Avenue-road, Regent's
I'ark,
was scene of the see •
great gaity, a grand fancy bazaar for
the
sale of ornamental works taking place under the
patronage of the Countess of Bandon,
Lady Ashley,
Lady L. Finch, Lady Boyle, Lady Watson, and the
Hon. Misses Wuldegrave, most of whom were present
and presided at the stalls, t.gether with the ladies of
Dr. Chilvers, Dr. Thompson, and General Walters, as
also Mrs. P. Johnson, Mrs. Fisk, Mrs. Msberley, Miss
Pym, &c. Notwithstanding the inclement weather, from
the opening at ore o'clock, till the close at six, a scream
of carriages continued to arrive in constant succession,
the total number of visitors being nearly 1,000. The
whole appeared to give the highest satisfaction, and the
produce of the day amounted to about 250/. Ihe fete is
to be renewed this day.
THE WEATHER.—LIVERPOOI., WEDNESDAY.—The
weather for some days past has been very unseasonable.
With little intanaission, there have been heavy falls of
snow and hail. Last night a heavy gale from the north•
east was experienced, without, heVieTer, doing any Mi-
na dame 14? go thiPPIDIP

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 18.
(Continued from ourAfte
RrnoonOADS BILL Edition of yesterday.)
PUBLIC .
Mr. B. DENISON rose to move another amendment,
to the effect that the Bill be read this day six months.
The Hon. Gentleman proposed by the Bill to accom-
• plish two objects : first, to reduce and pay off the mort-
gage debt upon all turnpike trusts:; and secondly, to put
the management of all turnpike roads under different
machinery. He would deal with the first proposition,
and in doing so, he would ask whether that was the
most happy time that could be selected to
pass a measure to pay off these debts
which, if it would not affect severely the pockets of the
occupiers of property, would, at all events, severely
irritate them. He thought that the present time was
exceedingly unfit to introduce such a measure. There
was a general notion prevailing, . that in con-
sequence of the formation of railways the se-
curity upon turnpike trusts was very much
injured, and that, in point of fact, the tolls collected, or
likely too be collected, would not be sufficient to pay off
all the debts. It was very desirable that a clear and
accurate understanding should be come to upon this
point, and for this purpose he would quote from a
Parliamentary paper (No. 492) which was published
in 1848. He found that in 1836 the tolls received
throughout the United Kingdom amounted to 1,449,0001.,
and the repairs to 800,0001., leaving a balance of 589,0001.
for the payment of interest, and for paying off the per-
manent debts. The balance in 1841 was 561,0001,
and in 1846, 577,0001., and although the receipts had
fallen, sinee the formation of railways, 200,000/., the
repairs had fallen in equal proportion.—(Hear, hear.)
There was another important feature, which was, that
in 1836 as much as 113 0001. of the trust debts had been
been paid off, while in 1841, 107,0001., and in 1846
167,0001. had also been paid off.—(Hear. bear-)
He had, therefore, a right to assume that turnpike trusts
were not at all in a desponding state, and that they
were tolerably well managed, for a large sum of money
was paid off annually. What the House had really to
do with was the bonded debt which the Hon. Gentleman
opposite proposed to pay off by means of a sinking fund.
But now he would show the House in what a position
the rate-payers would stand. By the Bill as it stood it
was proposed that 7 per cent. should be taken as the
first fruits of the tolls, not 7 per cent. of the tolls, but
of the debt. He did say, therefore, that, unless the
Honourable Gentleman could show that there would
be a decided surplus atter payment of the repairs
and all the establishment charges, it was clear the rate-
payers of the kingdom would have to sustain the burden
of all the contingencies.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He would tell the Hon. Gentleman candidly that he
thought some alteration ought to be made in the manage-
ment of turnpike roads—(" Hear," from Mr. C. Lewis)—
and he would give the Hon. Gentleman his best and ut-
most exertions in framing such a Bill as he thought would
meet the exigencies of the case.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Mr. B. Denison) contended that with the agricultural
community in the state in which it now was it was in
the highest degree injudicious to introduce such a Bill
as that before the House at the present moment, which
would operate most prejudicially against them. That
was the burden of the statement contained in the
petition which he had presented from the West
Riding of Yorkshire, and which was signed by
magistrates, landowners, and a great number of the
inhabitants. If the Honourable Gentleman chose to
make an arrangement with the mortgagees, acid would
give them security that they should be paid annually
the interest of their debt, there would be no
occasion for a sinking fund as was proposed,
and the parties would be satisfied. Why were
they to pay 7,000,0001. for the relief of persons
who were to live after the present generation, in 1880?
He did cbject to that part of the Bill which refused to
pay off the debt except by a sinking fund ; and it was
impossible the debt could be paid off by a sinking fund,
and on that account he thought it was injudicious to bring
such a Bill forward at the present moment, and he
could see no occasion for such a Bill. He would now go
to another part of the Bill, which proposed to place the
management of the highways under an entirely different
machinery from the present. The proposal in the Bill was
that there should be a committee of management varying
from eight to twelve in each county with reference to the
size of the county, who were to lay down rules by
which the roads were to be managed. To that central
committee each board of guardians was entitled to send
one member, and, therefore, it would happen in some
districts that there would be more poor-law unions than
the number of twelve, and the consequence would be
that the guardians would swamp the magistrates ap-
pointed on the central committee. However, that cen-
tral committee was to consist of eight or twelve magis-
trates, aid, added to them, a member from each poor-
law board ; and they were to lay down general rules for
the management of all the roads. Having laid down certain
rules, then the management fell on the present guardians
. of the poor, and they were in point of fact to supersede all
the trustees of the turnpike-roads. They were to have the
privilege, according to the Bill, of appointing a surveyor,
who was to have the superintendence, management, and
mending, and making of all the roads; and looking at the
union with which he (Mr. B. Denison) was acquainted,
in the vicinity in which he lived, he found the surveyor
for that district would have the disbursement of between
4,000/. and 5,0001. a year, which was at present expended
there in repairing the high roads. There was no doubt
at all, that with respect to the turnpike rate,
it was clearly to be a union rate, and not a parish
rate. Well, then, the surveyor so appointed under the
Bill would have the management of all the roads, and he
would have to raise the money from the different pa-
rishes by a union rate based on the county rive, not
according to the existing exigencies of each particular
parish, but according to the valuation at which
it stood to the county rate. Ile contended that that was
an unfair proposition.—(Hear, hear.) By that arrange-
ment be was, in point of Pict, to repair his neighbour's
roads, and his neighbour was to repair his.—(llear,
hear.) In the union to which he (Mr. B. Decision)
belonged the cost of the highways was 5,0u01.
a-year. He was not prepared to put into the hands of
any one in lividual the application of that 5,0001. a-year,
and he thought it would be putting a great temptation
in the man's way. Ile would, perhaps, give security
for the discharge of his duty, but he (Ir. B. Denison)
defied a poor-law auditor to examine that man's account
so as to satisfy himself that the money had been expended.
He was quite sure that part of the Bill would never an-
swer. Then the machinery of the Bill was to be placed
in the hands of the poor. Itw guardians. Now he knew
enough of poor-law guardians to know that they would
say that they bad enough to do already. It was utterly
impossible that they would get them to act. The latter
portion of the Bill would alter the whole of the existing
machinery and would act most injuriously. The R.ght
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
Department had expressed no decided opinion on the
Bill, and had intimated that if a strong opinion was ex-
pressed against it by the county Members that he should
not, on the part of the Government, press it. He suggested
to the Hon. Gentleman that he would do well to
withdraw the Bill. As he entertained a strong and de-
cided opinion against the measure, he begged to move
that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. RICE rose to support the Bill. Ile concurred
in the statement of the Honourable Member who had
just sat down, that the Bill had been pressed
upon the Government. It appeared that the ex-
penditure in respect of turnpike trusts had been
vastly increased of late years. Another Bill would im-
prove the present system of management, and at the same
time reduce the expenditure. That was an additional
reason why the Bill should pass. Then with respect to
the auditing of accounts. Now, as a county magistrate,
he was prepared to stale that the accounts were
not properly audited. Many ware passed without the
intervention of auditors. Then the lion. Member said
the Bill would throw an additional burden upon the
counties. If he could bring himself to believe that this
would be the case he would not support it. He believed
that the expenditure would be reduced. The
counties were bound to make up the amount of
the tolls if deficient, but inasmuch as the Bill would
introduce an improved and less expensive system of
management, he considered it would be beneficial rather
than injurious. In West Kent, for instance, he believed
the system which the Bill would introduce would meet
with approval.
Sir J. PAKINGTON would support the second read-
ing .of the Bill, although he felt pound to admit that it
had excited an alarm throughout the country that
Was totally uncalled for. He admitted that it
was most desirable to consolidate the various
turnpike trusts, hut he doubted the efficacy
the Bill to effect so desirable an object. He thoughtof
the
consolidation of turnpike trusts wouldtend
to the gradual liquidation of their debts
and if such a measure was introduced, he
would give it his support. If the measure was to be
carried he thought it would be better to divide it into two
Bills—one for the highways and the other for turnpike.
roads. lie thought many of the provisions of the Bill
were most harsh and unfair, especially that part of it
which dismissed parties without any compensation what-
ever.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was favourable to the principle of
the Bill, but he was decidedly opposed to the manner
in which it was proposed to carry it out. Many of the
details of the Bill were calculated to afford great
dissatisfaction to the
parties interested in turn-
railway system was making
great inroads upon the
par-
ties, and notwithstanding interestsh of those
eatbad been said by
vist w
the Hon. Member for the Riding, he still thought
that turnpike trusts were in anyieann, rate flourishing
condition ; but of this he was certain,
t
roads were kept in anything but an efficient setMa tee C 'off trhee.
pair. He concluded, therefore that many ofthe
were unable to obtain funds to repair theirtrustees
The objection of the lion. Gentleman the Member for roads,
wich to this Bill was, that the Bill itself was not divided
into two; but he (Sir W. Jolafe) altogether differed with
him is that view. The subject of these roads ought to be
d'sposed of in one large and comprehensive measure; but
while he sail that, it must not be understood
that he was of opinion that no difference ought to
be made between a first and second class road.—(Hear,
hear.) There was a wide difference between the two so far
as their wear and tear were concerned, and he thought that
an equal difference ought to be made in the amount of taxa-
tion which each inflicted ..in the localities through
which they passed. (Hear, hear.) With regard,
however, to the question of compensating officers at
present engaged in the management of turnpike trusts, he
understood that the majority of them followed other
occupations, which were not interfered with ,b the
duties the roads demanded of them, and he did nt
think they were entitled to any compensation.
With regard to the matter which had been mooted by his
Hon. Friend the Member for Droitwicb, there was little
doubt but that most of the details would be best considered
in Committee; but it was idle to suppose that any good
could possibly arise from talaipg any such measura.as this
into a Select Committee, whenit was any:
evident that this
Bill was intended to merge in some larger measure, and he
thought that it was absolutely necessary at this stage of
the proceeding, that the Government (should come forward

and give some explicit declaration as to their intention with
respect to future emergencies. He thought that by far the
better course to pursue would be that prescribed by his Hon.
Friend the Member for Droitwich, namely, to take the ob-
ject of the Bill in its two definite and most important sub-
jects—those of the turnpike trusts and the highways.
Separated even thus, the matter to be laid before the parties
invested with the authority to carry out the objects of the
Bill would be so surrounded with the difficulties which had
always beset this matter, that he, for one, could never see his
way clearly through it. One point, for instance, did
appear to him to be insurmountable. How could they
amalgamate insolvent trusts with those which were solvent
in any general measure? If this system was to be pursued,
and centralization were to be the order of the day, they must
appoint
commissioners, and, so far as he could see, the only
object which they seemed to desire to carry out was, to give
those commissioners plenty to do, Seeing, then, the number
and amount of these difficulties, de did think that the Govern-
ment were bound to give some explanation of the mode and
the end to which they intended in future to proceed.
Mr. C. LEWIS said, that when he bad introduced this
measure; to the House he had expressly stated, that although
the Bill proposed to deal with great and important interests,
yet they were not such as came properly per se under the
cognizance of Government. They were under the supervi-
sion of local trusts, and such as, 'properly speaking, ought to
be dealt with by those trusts, and it was upon that concep-
tion, and that conception alone, that he had in a-y way said
that which implied that the Government were not respon-
sible for the details or for the principle of the Bill. How far
the Government felt themselves responsible had been already
explained by his Right Hon. Friend to-day. Having made this
short explanation, he should pass to the allegations and ob-
jections which had been made to the House during this discus-
sion. In the course of last session the Government introduced
a measure with respect to highways, excluding turn.
pike trusts. The measure was referrred to a Committee,
who made various amendments, and the Bill was
reprinted and submitted to the House. It was then
found that the period of the session would prevent the
Bill from being proceeded with, and the Bill was not pro-
ceeded with, it being understood that the subject should
be duly considered by the Government during the recess.
But in the course of the discussion that arose after the Bill
came from the Committee, a general opinion was expressed
that the Bill was not sufficiently explanatory, that it did not go
far enough. and that the Government had made an important
omission by leaving out of the Bill any mention of turnpike
roads, and particularly with respect to insolvent trusts.
He appealed to those who opposed the present
measure, and who had heard that discussion, whether this
was not so; and further, whether the Government was
not blamed for not having had the courage to deal with a
question of so important a nature. During the recess his
attention and that of his Right Hon. Friend had been ear-
nestly directed to it ; and it was thought, in deference to
the opinions of the Mouse, and out of respect to the Com-
mittee, on which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
served—it was thought desirable to engraft upon the Bill
certain provisions with respect to turnpike trusts. It
was indeed the opinion of all who had turned their attention
to the subject, that on the whole the two classes of roads
would be benefited by their consolidation. He would not,
however, go into that question now. Under these circum-
stances the Government determined to lay before the
House a measure which comprised both classes of roads.
This was the answer he had to make to the
Hon. Gentleman opposite. Let the House bear in mind that
turnpike roads were no more than roads arbitrarily taken by
persons locally connected, legalised by an Act of Parliament,
and placed under the management of trustees; and when the
funds of the roads were insufficient for their proper manage.
ment, recourse was had to the highway rate. Those roads
were selected many years ago, in consequence of the
course of the traffic, and might be styled as affording
the means of arterial communication. Since rail-
ways had sprung into existence, the principal roads
had sunk into roads of a secondary or tertiary
character.—(Hear, hear.) Such had been the effect of
railways upon those roads, that many of them of a minor
character, especially those near railway stations, had be-
come of great importance. The principle of the Bill to which
the House was asked to assent, and of which those voting
for it would approve, he understood to be this, to combine
the management of all roads of the company, both turnpike
and highways Every Hon. Gentleman who voted for the
Bill would assent to the proposition that the disparity of
management between turnpikes and highways should not
longer exist— that the system should either be changed at
present or prospectively. The present Bill did not propose
to repeal local Acts. Each county would be divided into
districts, and would make provision for the management
of the roads in each division by the appointment of
local boards. It also involved a plan for the
extinction of the existing turnpike debts. These were the
principal features, and he should be prepared to listen to
every suggestion, and to adopt every one that was prac-
ticable and likely to be useful.—(Hear.) The Honour-
able Member for Dorsetahire had said, " Why don't you
deal with the best class of roads separately," and the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Droitwich made a similar obser-
vation, suggesting, therefore, that two Bills should have
been introduced—one for each class of roads. To that
he would answer, that that mode of proceeding had been
already tried, and had not, in truth, given more satisfaction
than had the Bill before the House. One Bill for such a pur-
pose was introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman then
Secretary at War (Mr. F. Maule), 13 years ago. It would
have dealt with turnpike trusts. Then the Right
Honourable Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir James
Graham) had introduced a Bill which would have dealt
with turnpike trusts separately from highways. Since then
a Bill had been introduced with respect to highways; but
none of them had been so fortunate as to meet with the ap-
proval of that House, and, therefore, it could not be said that
the subject had not been fully investigated, and the
best remedy devised for existing evils that could be.
It was true there were many difhculties in the way. For
instance, turnpikes had no boundary, they were not territo-
rial divisions, and they could not say the name of the
parish where the boundary of a turnpike trust be-
gan and terminated. Their exact limits could not be de-
fined—it could only be done arbitrarily. - (Hear, hear.)
There was another difficulty quite insurmountable, which
was the extremely small rise of some of the turnpike trusts;
some of them were only a few miles in extent, and their size
was extremely unequal. It appeared to him impossible to
frame any measure for the management of the highways
which should be operative in the management of the turn-
pike trusts as the basis of such a measure. He thought the
House had hardly considered the extent of the
highway expenditure, as compared with that of the
turnpike tusts.—(Hear, hear.) He believed if in
general they were to ask which of the two was the greatest
ex r enditure, most people would gi se an off band
answer that they believed the turnpike revenue was
considerably greater than ,that of the highway s.
Now it appeared by a return lately presented and
laid on the table of the House that the expenditure
for the highways in England (exclusive of Wales) in 1854
was 1,668,1341. The return from Wales was imperfect in
consequence of some of the kcal officers not having fur-
nished their quotas to the account, but the estimate, se
far as it went, was about 50,000/. ; in fact, it was
49,200/., which made a total for the expenditure of the
highways in England and Wales of 1,717,0001. The total
expenditure in 1846 for the highways and turnpike-roads
amounted to 3,061,0001., and of that sum the larger portion
was contributed by the highways. Now, he believed
it was scarcely necessary for him to state that
the management of the highways was, on the whole,
much less economical, much less efficient, and much less per-
fect than that of the turnpike trusts. He was perfectly will-
ing to pay that tribute to the trustees of the turnpike. roads.
The Hon. Member for the West Riding made some remarks
as to the time of introducing the present measure. In
answer to that, he would first say that this Bill was
promised at the end of last session, that the Govern-
ment considered itself bound in deference to the expressed
wishes, and partly in consequence of the promise made
at the end of last session, to introduce a general measure on
the subject in the beginning of the present session. That
measure was considered by the Government during the
recess, and it had been introduced at the beginning of the
session without any reference to the temporary or
existing distress.—(.[leer, hear.) He (Mr. C. Lewis)
entertained the strongest opinion that this me.:sure
would impose no new burdens on the agricultural interest,
but, on the contrary, he believed it would lead directly and
indirectly to the gradual diminution of those burdens. The
Hon. Member for the West Riding had asked why was the
-preeent.generation called on to make sacrifices for the payment
of theltempike debts. It would be a consolatory doctrine, he
(Mr. C. Lewis) admitted, if they could dispense always with
the payment of the principal of a debt, both with respect to
public and private debts: but with regard to workhouses,
public goals, shire-balls, prisons, and lunatic asylums,
he could show that the Legislature could , in
every case fix the term for the extinction of the debt. Ile
must say that the principle was a sound one, and although
it implied a present sacrifice, he thought it was a sacrifice
which was due from us to our posterity. He looked on that
legacy of six millions and a half of turnpike debt, together
with the million and a half of interest on the debt, as a legacy
which had been bequeathed to us by the improvidence of our
predecessors. The Hon. Member also urged that this Bill
would impose additional burdens on the.country.—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr. B. Denison,) Now, if the turnpike trusts
were, as they had been truly stated to be, a solvent concern,
and if there was at present an excess of means beyond the
payment of the principal and interest of that debt, he (Mr.
C. Lewis) was at a loss to see how the arrangement which
it was proposed to make could throw any considerableaddi-
tional burdens on the country. The interest paid in 1846 on
the existing trusts was 272,1331.; and the principal paid was
168,u261., making altogether 440,0001. The improvements
during the last year were 57,0001., and the salaries and law
charges were 113,000/. But that did not properly come in
question here. The Bill called on the turnpike trusts to pay
71. per cent. on the bonded debt of 6,609,0001; 71., per
cent. on that amount would be 462,6391., and. there-
fore, as compared with 440,000 L, the only addition he
should make would be 22,0001. Then he took particular
counties; and first, in Lancashire, which was one of the
largest' counties, the interest paid on that account was
34,6551., and the principal paid was 28,0974 making
62,0001. odd.—(Hear, hear.) According to this Bill,
the annual payment would be 50,694/., being
12,0001. less than was now voluntarily paid. Ile did not,
therefore, see how Lancashire would be a sufferer. He had
been asked what would be the effect in South Wales. of the
valuation of the debt and of other similar .measures
contemplated by the Bill. From the official state-
ment of the superintendent he found that the repairs,
the payment of interest, the debts paid off, and the other
charges, amounted in 1843, which was previous to
the introduction of the present system, to 35,4821., and in
1848, which was subsequent to the change in the law, to
35,020/. The difference between the two amounts, it
would be seen, was very small. But there was this
difference, with regard to South Wales, an additional burden
was thrown upon the county-rate, for which no equivalent
was given. In one county the additional charge was three-.
halfpence, in another a penny three-farthings, and, in others
a halfpenny and two-thirds of a penny; and although those
charges were not heavy, they were not compensated for 14 any
equivalent. The Hon. Member ( Mr. B. Denison) had objected
to the constitution of the county board, on the ground that
etehornettairiionLmtsheeembers were to be elected to it, viz., one from each
boarde of guardians, who would have it in their power to
each
boardmagistrates.
of
guardians
therd ia firsta s
was that wa submitteds
empowered
two of their body to the county board, but in the present Bill
the number had
teen reduced to one. He ( Mr. Lewis) thought
their chairman, and hecoi
that in most cases the guardians would be disposed to elect
could not see that any practical influence
would be infused into the board by the election of such
members to it. There coullonuontt,yh considered, be any valid ob-
jection to the election ofone guardian, ifl) the House thought
that another constitution of the lee'
division of the districts were preferable, he
and another
to modify the Bill in those respeegtis:.tratea
at.r
(eHweaas quite ready
hear.) It
had been suggested that the ma
t
sessions might have the management of all hiow
.out any admixture of the elective principle whatever,sb:itthe
11:3,
dbubred much whether such a principle would be, assented
to by the House: He .was quite ready to admit that the-
question as to the substitution of other persons-for the'
guardians at • the county board was -open - to con.•
sideration, and, as he had said before, he would
consent to any proposition, which the majority of the
House might think proper. Some Hon. Members seemed
to prefer a separate parochial rate for highway purpolee,

but it seemed ;to him that an union rate was on the
whole p: arable, and in re'erence to that part of the sub-
ject, he would make this one remark--that the main
reason for constituting turnpike trusts, which began in the
reign of Charles 11., and which had been at different periods
modified and altered by the successive Actsof Parliament, was
the ineffectiveness of a parochial rate for such purpose& It was
found that several parishes could not maintain a great com-
munication through a country without some additional assist-
ance, such as tolls being levied on travellers and passengers.
There was a discretionary power in this Bill to en-
able the county board to assign the district that
should support certain roads, and there was a district board
to carry out the intentions of the county board. It was
intended by the Bill that the county board should exercise a
general superintendence over the whole roads in the county,
and that the district boards should only take cognizance
over the roads in their charge. Now two classes of persons
mainly opposed this Bill—the mortgagees and the clerks,
whose offices would be put an end to by its provisions.—
(Hear.) With respect to the mortgagees, he did not
think they objected :to the principle .of the Bill,
though they might to some of its details ; nor did he believe
that the measure had created that alarm among the bond-
holders of these trusts that had been represented.
The officers and clerks of the existing trusts
certainly strongly opposed the measure. He admitted
that the officers and clerks were a highly meritorious class
of persons, and he fully admitted their claim to the con-
ide•-ation of the Government and the House.—(Cries
of " Heee, hear.") Before the withdrawal of the former
Bill on this subject, he had heard little of the claims
of the officers and clerks, but recently, and since the house
had adjourned for the rece s, he had received a very tem-
perate statement of the reasons why they ought to
receive compensation under"' the Bill. He was pre-
pared to admit that nb distinction ought to be
made between the claims of clerks of turnpike trusts
to compensation and other officers whose offices had
been abolished, and it would become matter of consideration
for the House what course it would pursue with respect
to that. For himself, he was not prepared to submit any
plan upon this subject for the consideration of the House.
After the fullest consideration he could give the sub-
ject, it was his firm belief that the Bill, if carried,
would effect the greatest improvement in the admi-
nistration of highway and turnpike trusts.-- (Hear, hear.)
He was anxious that the House should fairly consider this
question and the difficulties that surrounded it; but at the
same time there was no wish on the part of the Govern-
ment to urge the House to a precipitate decision. The
present might not be the most favourable moment
for dealing with this question, but the condition of
many of these trusts were not solvent, and the
question ought not therefore to be delayed to any extent.
At the end of every session of Parliament Government was
called upon to renew a large number of local Turnpike Trust
Bills, but owing to the cause he bad just mentioned,
many Acts were compelled to be excepted, which
gave rise to a good deal of objection on the
part of those who were interested in them. Now that was
a difficulty Government were anxious to get rid of ; and he
thooght, therefore, that if some general measure were not
passed this session, it would certainly be necessary for the
House to take some steps with regard to the insolvent trusts
that were demanding of Government a renewal of their
Bill. He was perfectly aware of the invidious duty Govern-
ment would have to undertake in deciding which were solvent
and which were not, but if the House were prepared to adopt
his suggestion, Government was bound to undertake that
discriminating duty, whatever might be the consequence
of it.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt many Acts had
been renewed -which ought aot to have ,been,
and no doubt upon the recommendation of the Government,
but the only way to remove that evil was for the House to
take the question into its own hands. He stated the principal
difficulties which surrounded this matter; but if the House
would assent to the principle it contained, he was quite ready
to read the Bill a second time, and then refer it to a
Select Committee. The questions relating to highways had
already been considered by a Select Committee, but turnpike
roads, which perhaps formed the most difficult part of the sub-
ject, had not, but the House might refer the Bill to a Select
Committee, who should be instructed to go into the general
question of dealing with turnpike- roads and highways together.
Apologising to the House for having detained them so long,
he should resume his seat in the full hope that the sug-
gestion he had made would meet with the approbation of
all parties Mho were anxious for the settlement of this ques-
tion.— (Hear, hear. )
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, whatever opinion might be held
in the House with regard to the merits of this measure,
brought forward under the auspices of the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, there could not be a doubt of the
obligation they owed to him for the great attention which he
had paid to this question, embracing a subject not necessa-
rily or immediately connected with the Executive duties of
an office already overburdened with public duties. The
same praise was due to hire, too, for the perfect fairness and
candour with which he had dealt with the objections urged
against this Bill; but in dealing with the objections raised
by this measure, be had omitted altogether the objec-
tions which had been urged by parties of a different
character to those of whom they had heard so
much. The objections they had heard were urged on behalf
of the mortgagees and the clerks connected with the trusts,
but there were other parties who objected to this measure,
and whose objections he represented himself. They were
parties who certainly had no personal interest in the
matter like that he hal just mentioned, but they
were urged by gentlemen who had undertaken functions of an
important and rather arduous character, which were imposed
upon them by the Act of Pediment relating to the admi-
nistration of turnpike trusts. He would put a case
to the House which would illustrate the objection of these
gentlemen. In many of the manufacturing districts the roads
were kept in the best possible state of repair for the conve-
nience of the public, while, perhaps, in some adjoining agri-
cultural districts the highways were en a bad state : was it
fair now to call upon the manufacturer to repair that ton as
well as their own ?—( Hear, bear.) Now that objec-
tion appeared to him to be far more important than
those which were urged on behalf of mortgagees and clerks
to trustees. It was said that since the reign of Charles 11.
there had been a distinction between turnpike roads and
highways, but that they ought now to be made the subject
of the same law. He, however, did not view the matter
in that light. He did net agree with the proposition
that because the establishment of railways had rendered some
of ourbighways unprofitable, they had a right to be supported
by a general rate extendingover the whole country.—(Hear.)
The observation, as it appeared to him, amounted to this,
that wherever a district had proved deficient, its short-
comings were to be made up by the receipts from other dis-
tricts; so that, wherever a trust bad been successful in
discharging its obligations, it was to be mulcted for the
deficiencies of others in which the responsible parties had
been unable to carry out their duties. Thus, where any
trust in the south part of the country bad been so unfortu-
nate as to fail in the discharge of its liabilities, the deficiency
was to be made up by the superior advantages of some
district in the north.— ( HeAr, bear.) Now that seemed to
be just the of ject of the Bill. That was just the objection
felt
th
td; beenbut theurged
ormeuliche
tsrhe i
Na,ta ,taf powerful it
this
pointwtappearedwehe rwe ot
uu
would on
be
i(aecdcl lieu, ant rut,
trusted
he
t ht haet
t' more
this
which
oh
examinedehoamit
hear.)
e.hm)s tarhteiaeedeig:
strongly
been
than
madeev e
ut o him,b aade
be neglected, and lie could not help expressing his opinion
that this was a matter which ought to be most fully gone
into.—(Hear, hear.) But his Honourable Friend had not
held out any reason to suppose that this mischief
was at all likely to be remedied.—(Hear, hear.)
He had no reason to suppose that there was to be any insti.
tution analogous to a county court, or that there was to be
any interposition of the county courts.—(Hear, hear.) In the
second place, he could not perceive that his Hon. Friend held
out any hope that the principles of the Bill could is any way
be adapted so that the evils could be avoided and benefits re-
tained—for this he aid not hold out any ground of hope.—
(Hear.) This advantage could certainly not be obtained in
the course of the second reading; but the clauses might be so
arranged in Committee, that every interest might be duly
considered and provided for. Unless this was done, or some-
thing tantarneunt to this, he should most certainly oppose
the Bill on its third reading. But that the Bill might go
into Committee he decidedly desired, for there were many
points in it which deserved their consideration. He was not
aware whether there had been a sufficient distinction made
between highways and turnpikes. If the roads were to be
subjected to some person competent to undertake their super-
vision, such as on ordinary surveyor, or other person of si-
milar capacity, much of the difficulty would be overcome;
but that they should be subjected to the di-
rection of the poor-law guardians was a proposition to
which he never could accede. He was not, in all this, ar-
guing against the institution of poor-law guardians, or against
the principle that they should have cognizance of matters
the expenses for which were to be paid out of the local rates.
But he did see great difficulty in making these highway dis-
tricts coneentaneous with the poor-law unions —( Hear, hear.)
He thought that the poor-law guardians had quite business
enough to transact without having to give their attention also
to the highways. Neither could he conceive that thehighway
districts could, with any likelihood of convenience or business
practicability, be equalised with those of the poor-law unions.
To attempt any such claesification was in fact to throw the
highways into the po r-law unions.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought that the general feeling of the House was this--
that it was necessary some great alteration should be
made with respect to the highways, but that there should be
a sufficient distinction drawn between the solvent and the
insolvent trusts in any legislation which might be carried
into effect concerning them. Unless the distinction were
made, he must say that he could not consent to the passing
of the Bill, or to the adoption of any principle in which such
a regulation was not involved.
Mr. CORNE WALL LEWIS said that he would not enter
into a consideration of the numerous objections which had
been made against the nteasure, either in the House, or in
the numerous notices which he had received objecting to the
Bill, but he might say; in reply to the remark which had
just beer made, respecting the position which the several
trusts would assume after this Bill was passed—(Hear)
—in reply to that remark, he might observe, that it was
by no mean's intended that the whole of these trusts were
to be thrown into hotchpotch, but the property of each
trust was to be valued, and 'the Market price having been
ascertained, the several bondholders would have debentures
of 1001. each issued to them, and these would be the securi-
ties on which their property would be based.
Mr. HUMS was rejoiced that the House had at last taken
up and evinced so much interest in the important subject of
turnpike roads. Forty years ago he had endeavoured to
obtain a consolidation of these trusts; and when, in 1826, he
brought the subject before the House, it was a matter of deep re-
gret to him that the whole questiouhad not then been settled.
He submitted to the Government, after the valid objections
which had been made, and which had not been answered,
the Bill could not be carried.—(Hear.) At the same time a
Committee should be appointed to inquire into and report upon
the subject. He admitted that the landed interest were too
heavily taxed on account of the maintenance of the highways,
and would support any reasonable proposition brought for-
ward with the view of alleviatiag them. He urged the
Government to withdraw the Bill.
Mr. SPOONER complained that roads in a good
condition were joined with roads that were insol-
vent. Trustees in such cases had A strong reason
to complain. Parties in the district with which be was con-
nected had subscribed to roads, not for profit, but for the be-
nefit of the public. They expected at any rate not to be
compelled to lose their money, which would be al-
most the case if this Bill were passed, since the
money which they had advanced would not be
received upon the particular roads on which they had advanced'
it—it would go into a general fund, and would be repaid
in instalments extending over a period of thirty years. The
clerk of the roads in his neighbourhood had intimated to him
that they did not oppose the Bill from interested motives,
as they were willing to forego theirclaiens—(Hear)—but with
a view to have their clients' interests properly attended to.
He bad presented a number of petitions from North Stafford-
shire against the Bill, and objecting to local management
being taken out of their hands. If the House were to peruse
the evidence of Mr. M'Adam, they would see that the fears
of the gentlemen who opposed the Bill were not groundless.
He took it to pay the interest which was not now paid,
and- therefore applied that money for the repairs of
the roads, and then the repairs of the roads were to be
kept up by the district rate. He had numerous
petitions sent to him against this Bill from various
parts of the country ever since the Bill had been in contem-
plation. At all_events the country was against the measure.

He should most decidedly support the amendment of the
Hon. Member for the West Riding.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Government would consent to
withdraw the Bill—(Hear)—principally out of concession
to the general expression of opinion against it from one end
of the country to the other. Cumberland, the borough
which he represented, and all the northern counties, refused
to have the Bill on any consideration. They objected to it
first on account of its mixing up the turnpikes and high-
ways. Ile (Mr. Aglionby) did think that was
a reasonable and valid objection. But the strongest objec-
tion with the inhabitants of those counties was that it laid
on them a heavier degree of taxation, and added an addi-
tional burden to the county rates. They could not
understand why they should be saddled with
debts contracted with respect to turn pike roads
by improvident turnpike trustees. Much of the money had
been thrown away extravagantly by:ithe ignorance and inca-
pacity of those intrusted with its management. Upon these
grounds be hoped the Government would not press the mo-
tion to a division; at all events, he for one should vote
against the measure.
Mr. HENLEY hoped the Government would withdraw
the Bill—( Hear, hear)—for he really thought there was no-
thing left of it to go to a Select Committee. The Govern-
ment did not show that they had any mind on the subject,
but the House was pledged to some unknown conoitions.—
( Hear, hear.) _The Honourable Gentleman said, with regard
to the county rate=, there would be no charge on the
county rates worth speaking of; be ( Mr. Henley) knew gen-
tlemen in office thought a sum like which was of
come importance to a small county, was a mere bagatelle.
The Act would net continue the rate of th?. existing tolls, but
new oner, according to a schedule in the Act, which
fixed the maximum and minimum rates. But
if they were inadequate, the loss must be
made up from the county rate, which would be
manifestly unfair.—(llear. ) At this late hour he would not
go into the whole of the argumente. At present the turn-
pikes cost 421. a mile for management,whilst the highwayscost
but 161., which would create a strange anomaly, and throw
an unjust burden upon many parties. The Bill was calculated
to throw additional burdens upon the county rates. Besides,
the period it had been brought forward was peculiarly ill-
timed. He should support the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. MANGLES,
Sir GEORGE GREY said, after the endeavours of
the Governments of the last fifteen years to
legislate upon this matter, the manner in which this
Bill bad been received was not very encouraging.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Coekermouth advised
the withdrawal of the Bill, yet he said the county with
which he was connected would never be satisfied
until a sweeping change took place.—(Laughter.)
The opinion of the House' had been fully taken with re-
spect to the Bill, and that opinion was adverse to it.—
(Hear, hear.) The object of the Bill was to combine
the management of the highways and turnpikes, but
if the House were to agree to the second reading of the
Bill pro forma and refer it to a Committee,
the House would in some measure commit itself
to the opinion that combined management was desirable.
He thought be would not act fairly to the House if he
allowed this Bill to go to a Select Committee, because
if he rightly collected its opinion, it was adverse
to the principle of the • Bill.—(Hear.) He thought
therefore, the best course to pursue would be to withdraw the
Bill, and in doing so he felt bound to state that he could not
hold out any hope that the'Grovernment- would bring in any
other measure upon the subject.
The order of the day for the second reading of the Bill was
then discharged.
INDICTABLE OFFENCES (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill as amended was further considered and ordered to
be engrossed.

SUMMARY CONVICTIONS BILL.
The further considerations of this Bill was postponed ti
to-morrow.

LANDLORD AND TENANT BILL.
The Committee on this Bill was postponed till to-morrow.
AFFIRMATION BILL.
Mr. P. WOOD moved the third reading of this Bill.
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the motion. The Bill had, it
was true, a most plausible title, but he thought
its principles were most pernicious. He thought, the Bill
involved a dangerous principle, and was likely to prove an
impediment in the way of administering justice. He was
one of those who felt that oaths properly administered were
well calculated to secure truthful evidence, and, except in
the case of parties who entertained objections to
the taking an oath on the ground that it
was opposed to the tenets of the- sects to
which they belonged, no one ought to be exempted from
doing so. Lately they had seen in courts of justice Pro-
testants and others objecting to the taking of an oath, for
which,they were properly punished ; but the Hon. and Learned
Gentlemen, by this Bill, declared that such parties, although
they had by the articles of their Church admitted oaths were
in accordance with the Scriptures, should be allowed to make
affirmations, providing they were people of good character.
But how was it to be decided that their characters were
good ? How often had they seen certificates of good character
given to parties whose characters were very doubtful?
He said then that if this Bill passed, it would in
many cases defeat the ends of justice and prevent the
truth being arrived at. The Bill provided that every
person liable at present to take an oath should have
power to go before a magistrate and prove lie was
of good moral character, and he should be entitled
to a certificate enabling him ever afterwards to he
heard upon affirmation instead of an oath. Now, would not
such legislation, besides impeding the progress of justice
and truth, tend to demoralise many branches of society ? The
man who took an oath felt more dispose .l to tell nothini, but
the truth than the man who did not; but pass this Bill, and
that great moral influence would be destroyed, and many vin-
dictive and dishonest people would have an opportunity of
swearing away the lives and properties of their victims with-
out being liable to a prosecution for perjury.— (Hear, hear.)
He had stated to the House the principles and provisions of
this Bill. lie would have done so at an earlier period had
not indisposition prevented him, but he did trust thot those
who had charge of the administration of justice in this
country would oppose the exercise of the principle which it
involved with the whole of their influence. The lion. Gen-
tleman concluded by moving that the Bill should be read
a third time this day six months.
Mr. PAGE WOOD regretted that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had not given his opposition in an earlier stege of the
Bill, as the principle by the second reading had been af-
firmed, and its details had been recognised by the discussion
in the Committee. In the time of William 111. the Quakers
had become a very considerable body, and they had then
been exempted from taking the oath of allegiance; and by
the 7th and Bth William 111. they had been relieved from the
necessity of taking an oath in civil cases. Ss the
matter remained until the time of George IV.,
when an alteration was made as to criminal affairs.
But although so long an interval had passed, it had not
passed without serious objections. In a case tried before
Lord Mansfield, for the recovery of damages—a qui tam
action—an action, therefore, in the nature of a criminal
proceeding—he had . lai I it down as a principle
that the affirmation of an individual who was a Quaker, in
criminal as well in civil proceedings, was valid.—(Bear.) Ile
had himself presented several petitions both from the Mora.
vians and the Separatists: The former of those bodies of
Dissenters had been readily relieved, and of the latter
there were only three congregations in England, four in
Scotland, and sixteen in Ireland. Now, it was a fact, that
each of these congregations only consisted of three indivi-
duals, so that in a community consisting of nine in England,
twelve in Scotland, and forty-eight in Ireland, the whole
of the relief was granted. Yet, notwithstanding these facts,
relief was denied to those persons who had conscientious ob-
jections, and who were subject to grievous penalties. A person
had nothing more to do than on his stepping into the wit-
ness-box to say that he had been a Quaker, or he had
been a Moravian, and he was immediately exonerated from
all the liabilities which this Bill was intended to remove.
Was there ever a greater premium for dissent? There was
a sufficient proof that the only persons who were at all
likely to be affected by this Bill were those who acted
from conscientious motives, and not those who entertained
but few scruples respecting the sacredness of an oath. The
fact was, that the public were the losers, for they lost the evi-
dence frequently necessary in judicial inquiri:s, and the right
decision was thus frequently lost in matters of the last impor-
tance.
acasrsvue Sp
which
e ni i
et
how ilhaCekhi
niitgho
ueasnec r
The Honourab e Member then referred to several
wasl
ioma ti hn ap;
prepared
a s acquitted and the wit-
ness committed, because the latter had conscientious
npdarewaastothsaatncatiosnta?Le
(ouf
etahre,
hear.) One was that of a cabman who was charged
with running over and causing the death of a person, but
the only individual who sew the occurrence not taking an
oath, he was committed and the prisoner dismissed.—(blear,
hear.) He also alluded to several civil cases, in which
the result was preci ely the same viz., a wit-
ness being committed and the action being lost ; and
asked if such a state of things ought to be allowed to exist
in a civilised country ?—(Hear.) It had been stated by an
Hon. Member that persons affirmed things which they
would not swear to upon oath, but to that he would answer,
that there was not a single instance on record of a person of
a bad or villanous character refusing to take an oath, whilst
there were many instances of persons of good Fharacter. doing
so, and of giving their evidence upon affirmation.— (p ivide.)
Mr. HENLEY said if he had previously entertained any
doubt with respect to the propriety of the Bill, it
had been removed by the speech of the Hon. Member for
Oxford, who, he thought, had not brought forward one
single answer to the objections which had been made to it.
A great many persons made statements more loosely and
highly coloured in merely stating them than in making
them on oath. Under the sanction of an oath they gave their
testimony more carefully. Why did they not exempt persons
from serving on juries who did not like to serve? He could
see no distinction between them and persons who did not like
to take an oath. If the Hon. Gentleman's Bill should become
law, the Noble Lord, the Member for the city of London,
might withdraw his Parliamentary Oaths' Bill altogether
from the consideration of the House. He did think,
taking the balance of conveniences and incon-
veniences respecting the taking of oaths, if they
recognised the principle of this Bill, they might as well
do away with the taking of oaths altogether.—(Cries of "Di-
vide," in the midst of which the Hon. Member resumed hi,
seat.)

The gallery was then, at a few micutes befora six. o'clock
cleared for a division, when there appeared—,
For the third reading ••• ''• ••• 70
Against it ... ... 46
Majority for the third reading ... —24
The Bill was then read a third time, but not passed, it
being Six o'clock.
The House then adjourned.

•
STATE OF TRADE.
(From the Manchester Guardian.)
MaNcnrgrEa, Aram 17.—Since our last report, nothing
whatever has occurred to afford the slightest relief to
this market ; the general dulness has, consequently,
become greater, and the pressure of a production
not sensibly diminished by a local interruption,
has caused a further subsidence in prices, except as regards
certain articles for which the makers are under contract ;
and for these the inquiry has fallen off. No understanding
has yet been come to between the operatives and their em-
ployers at Stalybridge.
ROCKDALE, APRIL 16.—There has been very little doing
in the piece market today; few sales have been effected.
and prices have been extremely low. The wool market has
been quite as dull as that for pieces, and prices are rather in
favour of purchasers.
HUDDERSFIELD, APRIL 17.—The market to-day varies
little in the woollen department from those preceding it
for sorneNweeks past. In our Cloth Hall the wollen trade
continuo brisk. We have also a decided improvement in our
fancy, trade ; many orders have been given out, and almost
all..oa,weavers are fully employed. The stock of wool in
the' h4da of the staplers is generally reported to be low;
and iser,sonl are anilously looking to the next sales.
HAtwax,Apittr, 14.—The disturbed state of the continent
has had iteeffed npfin cur market, and the demand for
worsted gond< both 'plain and figured, is less active
than it velkel 450 prices not having risen . equally
wiLh 050.41:raativaLe,rial, have sustained no diminution.
Yarns 'have receded` -a—little in -price, anti the
blockade of the German ports cutting off all
export, the shipping houses are quite out of the market. The
spinners, however, are still fully employed on old orders, and
the principal firms will probably be so for some weeks to