The Sun.
London, England, 1822-06-08 00:00:00

SUN.

answers with the Liturgy and the Articles, which were there-
fore the only tests to which candidates were submitted. Had
he not the right of selecting his mode of examination in his
own diocese ? If their Lordships interfered in his case, they
must interfere also in other dioceses, for he was not the only
Bishop who examined by questions and answers. And then
every disappointed candidate for Holy Orders would send Pe.
titions like the present to the House. The Right Reverend
Prelate then stated that the Petitioner, instead of returning
plain answers to the question put to him, had defeated their
object by the multiplicity and length of his explanations.
He had sent ten folid pages of the largest dimension and
closely written. This was both an artifice and an insult, and
he would have acted mere honourably if he had refused at once
to give au answer at all. Having waded through this mass of
matter, he '(the Bishop of Peterborough) had found that the
whole was collected to conceal the opinion of the Petitioner.—
He had sent him another paper, desiring to have precise
answers, but the Petitioner had replied that he could only,
answer as he had done, and that if more explanations were
wanted, he was ready to send them. How then could he (the
Bishop of Peterborough) conscientiously declare that a man
professed sound doctrine, when he could not ascertain what
were his religious opinions ? It had been hinted that he paid
no attention to the testimonials brought from other dioceses ;
but those testimonials were generally to moral character, with
an opinion that the person was orthodox. Now there were
so many opinions with respect to orthodoxy, that an exami-
nation alone could settle the point. Besides, the Bishop of
the Diocese, when lie countersigned those testimonials, only
bore witness to the honesty of the subscriber, not to the cha-
racter or doctrine of the candidate. The everend Prelate
then read the various allegations of the Petition, and declared
that it was false, that be had peremptorily required answers to
every one of his questions. It was false that he had ever re-
jected individuals, even if they had deviated from his own in-
terpretation, not only in one, but even in six or seven answers
on points on which controversy might fairly exist. He had
never refused a license, except when the opinions expressed
were in direct contradiction to the doCtrines of the Church. It
was also false that he had added 36 questions to the original 87.
He had not added, but substituted those 36 for the 87, in cases
of examination for Curates • in those for Ordination he had
made no alteration. The Petitioner wished to recognize no
other standard of doctrine than the 39 Articles ; but he con-
tended that the Liturgy formed part of the test to which it was
necessary to subscribe. Every candidate was required by the
Canon to give account of his faith according to the Articles of
Religion. But could he do so by the mere act of putting his
name to those Articles ? Would not that be nugatory ? The
Canon warranted examination, and examination warranted his
questions. The Articles without being interpreted said nothing,:
It was interpretation which prhvented them from being -a dead
letter. In the answers returned to his question, he had some-
times found, the Articles, made to express the very reverse of
their real Meaning. Was it his duty in these cases to grant
ordination or licences ? - Yet in the course of five years, the
number of persons- to whom he had refused either, did not
-amount to more than three. The Royal Declaration at the
head of the Liturgy had given as much offence at the time to
the adirersaries of Archbishop Law, as this question had dorie
to his opponents. Ad Address had then .been presented.
to. the King, as one was now proposed, and if. -the same
party prevailed, in the present day as in the time of Charles
the First, the Bishop of Peterborough might undergo
the same fate as Archbishop Law. The Petitioner prayed
their Lordships to address his Majesty to enforce the Royal
Declaration, but that Declaration was issued to insure the
grammatical explanation of the Articles, and that was
what his questions were intended to do. Should his Ma-
jesty issue his mandate to forbid the use of those questions, he
should bow in submission ; but it would become their Lord-
ships, before they agreed to an Address calling for such an ex-
ercise of the Royal Prerogative, to consider whether it would
be consistent with the Constitution of Church and State. He
therefore trosted that their Lordships would not think it ne-
cessary to concur with the prayer of a Petition founded in
fallacy and falsehood. Of this he was, convinced the Noble
Lord was not aware, when he Yielded to the solicitations of the
!Petitioner to present it to time House. Whatever might be
their Lordships' decision, he could have no personal interest in
the matter, and he was only anxious to retain the use Of his
questions, because the experience of five years had satisfied him
of their utility. He now stood a second time in his own justi-
fication, though it was not usual to be tried twice for the same
offence, and it was not very :teeming that an individual who des
dieated his life to the defence of Christianity, should be twice
put upon his own. He now should leave his case in the hands
of their Lordships.
Lord HOLLAND conceived that the Reverend Prelate had
used harsh language towards the Petitioner. For though he
was a man of learning and a Prelate, he had not the power,
of reading hearts and knowing the motives of men. After hav-
ing attentively listened to the Reverend Prelate's speech, he
must say, that the whole tenour of it displayed the most corn- ,
plete ignorantia elenchi that he had ever witnessed in a public i
man or a public body. The question was, whether the prin.
ciple of examination- was justified by the law of the land, and
he held, according to sound constitutional doctrine, that if a
remedy were not found in the Church or the Law, it must
be found in Parliament. The Reverend Prelate said, that his
questions were not tests, but a mode of examination ; but this
was a miserable subterfuge, and-the Rev. Prelate was surely
too manly not to own that his object was to find out the reli-
gious opinions of individuals. As to the canon law being bind-
ing on Ecclesiastics, he doubted-whether it might be considered
as the law of the land, not having received the same sanction as
the 39 Articles and the Liturgy. The only ground on which
the Rev. Prelate was able to stand was the 48th canon, and even
that was ambiguous. The 39 Articles, as they at present stood
.by law established, were put in their present shape at the
commencement of the reign of Q. Elizabeth, in 1562. Would
the Learned and Rev. Prelate deny that, from the time of Lu-
alter, from the time of the Reformation itself, the principles of
Arminianism were not unknown to the Church ? Would any
man believe such a thing, or if he did, would he venture to as-
sert it ? If these questioni had been proposed, since the fram-
ing/of the Articles, to many of the greatest ornaments of the
Church, would they not have given such answers as would
have excluded them from the Church, if such a system had pre-
vailed ? The' tendency of the system was to narrow the basis
of the Church—a most dangerous policy in whomsoever might
pursue it. The Articles had always since the time of Charles
11. been considered as articles of peace rather than of uni,
formity. The object or polidy of them had been, in the lan-
guage of their historian, to preserve a discreet laxity. That
good and learned person, Archbishop Wake, said, that it had
always been the practice, and, he trusted in God, that more
would never be required from the candidates for the Church,
than a subscription to these articles. Now the Learned and
Rev. Prelate opposite must either use all the harsh and unchaS
ritable language to that great person, as he had applied to the
Petitioner, or else be inconsistent with himself. He did not
mean to put articles of examination to the Bench of Bishops ;
but he believed that if any such course were taken, it would
be found that great diversity of opinion existed. He had heard
that persons who had been refused in the diocese of Peterbo-
rough, had gone to a diocese where they had been known, and
were ordained. He protested ag'ainst the cruel practice of
examining Curates upon the Articles. If a man after long de-
liberation with himself, resolved upon entering the Church of
England, or any Church, it was most cruel and impolitic
in that Church 'to reject him. He must say that in his
opinion the Bishop of Peterborough had very much exceeded
his legal authority in putting his Eighty-seven Questions upon
the Thirty-nine Articles. At all events, if he had not exceeded
his authority, he had exercised it in a novel, and, to the interests
of the Church, detrimental manner. As far as the Church
Establishment formed part of the laws of the land, it was their
duty to maintain the peace thereof; and to prevent the spec-
tacle of one diocese being set against another, they ought to
put a stop to this growing evil in the Church. The Learned
and Rev. Lord had avowed in that . House what no one had
ventured to do since the Revolution, viz. a desire to straiten
and narrow the basis of the Church. He hoped that House
would interfere and widen that basis as much as possible, con-
sistently with their duty to God and the interests of the Church.
The Learned and Reverend Prelate talked about Convocation.
It was a very pretty thing to read about in books, but he hoped
he,should never see that power put in operation in the present
day.
Lord CALTHORP thought that though there ins a discre-
tion Vested in the Bishops, the Right Reverend Prelate had
gone beyond the limits of any discretion that could possibly
have been conceived to attach to the 48th Canon, and also in
violation of the King's Declaration affixed to the 39 Articles.
That Declaration was to forbid the dictission -of nice and cu-
rious questions, such as those put by the Right Rev. Prelate.—
He asked whether it was to be' tolerated in, a country like this,
that individuals, who by their learning and attainments would

PRlcl SEVENPENCE.

'do credit to any Profession, should be excluded from carrying
those qualities to the Church ? He gaveitill credit to the Right
Rev. Prelate for that extraordinary -zAT'' for the Established'
Church, which, although disguised, he really believed actuated
him in this proceeding. But he must declare it as his Solemn
opiniOn, that the course pursued by him had 'a direct ternittnc7
to create schisms in the Church, and 'he hoped • therefore it
would be put a stop to before its 'evils becaine felt. He hoped'
the House would vote for the petitidu, 'as implying a censure
upon a practice which since the establigliment of the Reformed• •
Church to this period had never before preVailed: - •
The Earl of HARROWBY said, that as he thOught differ-
ently now from.what he did when the last Petition was *pre,
sented, he would trouble their Lord4iips -with an explanation'
of the vote he should give. From the seriousness c& the alle.
gations, and the-repetition of thein, 'he thouight the Petitioner
was entitled to come before the House,' and he thought that
House was bound to give more attention to the Petition. On
the question which the Petition involved, he ConfeSsed that he:
was disposed to agree in Almost all that he had heard from 'the
other side, but he made a reserve on scone points. The De..
claration alluded to set forth that the candidate for Hblv
Orders, " shall give an account of his faith, according to
the articles, and his concurring with the.same shall be sufficzezit
testimony." The practice of the Right' Rev: Prelate be thought'
was eminently prejudicial and dangerous to the Church. To
narrow the foundations of the Church was not the mode to pro..
mote its interests. The practice was doubtful in point of lali;
and clearly wrong in point of policy. HO, should vote for the
Petition being laid on the table,
.though he was far from pledg,
ing hiniself to'support an address which he had not heard read..
The LORD CHANCELLOR' thought it would be a most
extraordinary course for their Lordships to take, to refuse to .
allow the petition to lie on the table, and yet not to, reject it;
but permit it to be read. If the Noble Earl who had spoken .
last saw nothing in this petition which made it improper toile
received, or to be allowed to lie upon the table (taking it to be
a general representation of the sentiments entertained by 'the
gentlemen who had signed it), it appeared •to him (the Lord
Chancellor) that it ought to be permitted so to be read
laid on the table, whether their Lordships should choose to
found any ulterior measure upon it or not. And such -a - pro-
position he was himself inclined, -therefore, to support. But if
it was intended, by laying the petition on their table, to imply.
any censure on the Right Reverend Prelate, whose conduct it
called in question, he (the Lord Chancellor) would vote
against it,-even in that stage of the auestion. 'He could not
see how the Right Reverend Prelate, indeed, could go on t 6
the subscription, without previous examination. In voting
that the petition should lie on the table, he (the Lord Chan,
cellor) desired not to be understood as imputing any blarriestO.
the Right Reverend Prelate. •
The petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the, table.
Lord DACRE then observed, he had intended to have follow-
ed up the last motion, by moving an address to the Crown on
that subject z but from what the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack, and other Learned Lords, had said, it was clear
that he (Lord Dacre) should find much difficulty and opposi-
tion if he persevered in his intention. He was therefore
ed to substitute for it a Motion " that this petition be referred
to a Committee to consider the matter thereof."

... _
The LORD CHANCELLOR having explained the terms
on which he would consent that the petition be laid on the table,
Would only say that he could not consent to this'motion.
' The question being put,
The Earl of CARNARVON could not repress his astonish-
ment on finding, that when so important a subject as•this was
brought before the House, the bench of Right Reverend
Prelates had not declared in words—:no, nor by a nod—nor
even by a gesture, whether they meant; to a . man, to sane,.
tion or conderrm the conduct of their Right Rev. Brother.—
(Hear, and a; laugh.)—Usually those Reverend Prelates
were not backward in expressing their opinions on subjects
comparatively unimportant. They had long been in the habit
of attending, and very regularly, the discussions of their Lord
ships ; but whether for mere ornament and appearance, or for
any more useful purpose, their conduct on this evening might
possibly decide.' Could their Loidships see with indiffeience
a bench of Bishops thus sitting in timid silence? Was it pct
almost a desertion of those whom it was the bounden duty of
those Right Rev. Prelates to instruct.? On any great con!ti.•
tutional question, particularly a year or two ago, they formerly
could not complain that either the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack, or those Right Reverend Prelate, were slow to
give the. House the benefit of their wisdoM and experience. '
But here, on a tiue.stion of Church policy, both were silent. 'That
the Right Reverend Prelates had come down to vote one way
or other, was evident enough ; but the grounds upon which
their votes *ere to proceed their Lordships were not to learn.
What would the public think, when it was informed that of
the very many Reverend Prelates who had come down tbat
night to the House, not one was to be found who had a single
Word to offer upon ie subject before their Lordships ?—(Hear.)
On the question that the Petition be referred to a Committee,
the House divided—
Contents - 19
Non Contents - 58
Majority - - - —=39.
MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. •
After a few words in conversation from Lord ELlenborougt.,
the Earl of Liverpool, and the Lord Chancellor, this Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wed-
nesday.
Their Lordships adjourned at a little after Nine o'Clock.

DOUSE OF COMMONS.
MISCELLANEOUS. - -
Mr. BLACKBURNE presented several petitions from
Brewers and Publicans in Lancashire, against the Licensing
Bill. - , - •

Mr. M. A. TAVLOIi postponed his motion relative to the
practice of the Court of Chancery until the 25th inst.
Mr. EGERTON presented a petition froirt certain Publicans
in the county of Chester, against the Licensing Bill.
Mr. BERNAL took this opportunity of stating, that solve
observations which.had fallen from him on a former evening,
with reference to the Licensing Bill, had been misrepresented
in some public journals. He had been made to say that he
thought no abuses existed in the mode of licensing country
public houses. Now all that he in fact said was, that no dis-
tinction should be made between the London and the country
brewers.
Sir U. BURGH presented a petition from certain farmers of
the county of Carlow, in Ireland, praying for the imposition of
additional duties on imported butter.
The Middlesex County Rates Bill was read a second time,
and ordered to be committed.
The Bakers' Regulation Bill was recommitted, to afford
an opportunity for introducing some amendments which were
agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be received on
Monday.
Mr. BENETT presented a petition from the Tanneriof
Salisbury, praying for the. total repeal of the Leather Tax.
Lord G. BERESFORD presented a Petition from certain
Owners and Occupiers of Land in the County of Waterford,
praying for the imposition of additional Duties on. imported
Butter.

Mr. CALCHAFT, seing the Attorney-General in his place,
complained that an Order of the House for a return of the num-
ber of causes set 'down for hearing in the scvcral branches of the
Court of Chancery had not been fully complied with, inasmuch
as in the papers which had been laid before.the House no re-
ference was made to the rolls.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would inquire
into the cause of the omission, and endeavour to have it sup-
plied.
Mr: ABERCROMBY thought that some explanation ougl.t
to be given by the officers of the rolls upon the subject. '
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said a few words to the same effect,
and complained of general neglect to the erdus of House on
the part of officers of the Court of Chancery.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said a few words in reply.
Here the conversation dropped.
'Mr. BEAUMONT presented a petition from the owners and
occupiers of land in a district of. Northumberland, complaining
of certain grievances which tiny had sustained under the horse
tax.—Laid en the table.
Sir T. ACLAND presented two petitions from the owners
and occupiers of land in the hundreds of Axminster and Col-
lumpton, Devonshire, complaihing of agricultural distress.—
Laid on the table. . -
YORKSHIRE POLLS BILL.
Mr. WYNN moved the second reading of the Yorkshire
Polls Regulation Bill.
Mr. CHALONER opposed the Bill. It 1M supported, he
said, by no interest in the county of York ; and certainly if the
county were polled, he did not think there was any one to
whom they would less willingly intrust nay measure affect-
ing them than the Member for the County of Montonery,

1t.e.13:1.1 went to deprive all the rreeholders of the County of
a very important part of their elective franchise. He should
move that the Bill be read a second time this day she months.
;01r. HAMDEN seconded the amendment. He was .of
epimon that the sentiments of the Grand Jury at the last
Assizes for the County of York were entitled to the,considera-
tize. of the House. Out of twenty-one of that Grand -Jury,
seventeen were then absolutely against the Right Hon. Get-
feman's Bill. The othei fonr had then reserved their opi-
rttiOTA, but three of them had since declared against it. It was
however right to state, that one of those who were against the
had since declared in its favour. He thought it unfair
tq deprive the electors of the franchises which they already
possessed. He, for one, had at present four votes, but, the
effect bf the Bill, if passed, would be to deprive him of two

c: then.
WILBERFORCE said, he would implore the House
not to view that question as one of no great importance.—lt
ui not regard the county of York only, but the principle of
the dill was to be considered as of a general nature.— Theob-
,jeet, of the Right Hon. Gentleman in bringing forward the Bill,
was stated to be with a view to avoid the expense and the
pamalt of contested elections. The same reasoning would
apply to all ether counties and places in which there was
a -contest. The contest was frequently not the less warm
or less expensive because it was confined to a smaller space
sr number of electors than Yorkshire had. Small towns
were often the theatres of great contests. He was, well ac-
qaainted with the principles of liberty, and he was sure
they would be better supported by bringing great multi-
tides together. He recollected, with satisfaction, that he
.was a candidate six times for the representation of 'the county
of York. lie did not think the heat or the expence to be a
cause of so much alarm as to require the present Bill. At
present any of the Members could be the Representatives of
ereey interest in the county—of the agricultural, the manufac-
;snag, and the commercial interests. ,If the Right Honour-
able Gentleman's Bill passed, the case would be very different.
:each interest would have its own representative. On those
E.:comas he would vote against 'the Bill, and he implored the
neuse to consider that it was the national interest, and not the,
interest of the county of York only, that was at stake.
Mr. WYNN said, that from the speeches of those who had
approved of the disfranchisement of the Borough of Gram-
pcsnd, and of transferring the elective franchise to the county
of York rather than the neighbouring hundreds, it was clear
that they sanctioned, that measure on the understanding that
a Bill like the .present would be brought in to regulate the
elections. It was not at that time introduced that they should
net incar the risk of throwing out the Bill in the Lords
by incumbering it with that regulation. There was not time
last Session to proceed with a separate Bill of that nature.s--
it vas objected that. he Bill infringed on the elective fran-
chise ; and it was asked why the same attempt was not
made in other counties? The answer was evident; Wilt-
shire was to have four Members henceforward; and, be-
sides, it contained. a larger body of electors, and was a more
extensive county than any other. It was a fact, that at
the last election for that county, several voters, although
they had travelled a great distance, had not time to give
_fr.= votes, but were obliged to go as they came. York-
shhe being a manufacturing county, there was a tendency,. by
the increase of wealth, to an increased number of voters, and
-ecr:sequently the measure, which he had intended by the Bill,
we id become necessary, and should be carried sooner or later.
at war said, that if the expence of those elections was great,
Coat expence was for constitutional and legitimate purposes,
.tzt tie would ask the House if it was fit to continue an eke-
ten Which'was known to have cost each party 100,0001. ? Be-
sides, the number of electors was so great, that no one person
eels be able to decide the votes. There were 13,830 voters in
the 'West Riding alone. Would not 14,000 electors bequite
sef.cient to satisfy any man's love for liberty or popularity ?
If any of the four Members gave offence to a portion of the
e.,:iectors, he would have to stand a contest. He would refer to
-.r.e'city of London, in which there was no election without a
-‘on test. He did not think the Grand Jury, to whose opinion
House was called, ought to have gone out of their proper
sp'r.er.e. They were sworn for particular purposes, and ought
riot to meddle with anv other matters. They were not more
corr.petent to judge of the necessity of the Bill than that House,
whose decision he would leave it. •
Lord .NORAIANBY oppoted the Bill. He thought the in-
terfefence of the Grand Jury extremely proper, as they inter-
fered not as Brand Jurors, but as Electors of the County of
• -

Yezh.
;geed HOTHAM supported the Bill, and denied that it was
hhjected to by the majority of the county of York, which was
apparent from the petitions on the table, eight of which were
enzerenst the Bill, andseven in favour of it.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said the eacts of this Bill would be the
,Seetnaction of the influence. of the landed interest in the West
Riding; and as he thought the opinions of the persons most
deeply interested in every thing relative. to the county of York
i•gettile to the Bill, he should oppose the second reading.
Admiral SQUTHETtNE, Mr. DEesisost, and Mr. Pvli-
Cheeng. opposed the second reading.
Mr. H. SUMNER supported this Bill because he thought
the West Riding ought not to. be allowed to ride over the other
two Ridings.
The House then divided—
For the Second Reading . . . 27
Agatinst it . . . . . 59
INlajmity against the Second Reading —37
Mr. S. RICE asked a question across the table, respecting
the time when an step might be taken on. the Report of the
Co----Itsioners to inquire into abuses in the Court of Exchequer
7.reland. •
21r. GOULBURN said (as was understood), that he would
tete a future opportunity of answering the question.
Mr. PLUNKETT said •.lic had not yet seen the Report of
the commissioners ; but that if any one had a right to com-
plain, it was the learned person (Chief Baron O'Grady) whose-
choncizet had been brought into question.
J. NEWPORT tlitiught the consideration of this sub-
;e-c• eight not to be' delayed beyond the present Session.
A Al staluE a, under the Gallery, wished to know from the
Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
whether it was his intention to propose any alteration in the
Duties now payable on East India Sugar ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was
not the intention of his Majesty's Government to make any al-
teration In the existing duties.
CONSTABLES IN IRELAND BILL.
M. GOULBUILN rose to move the second reading of this
Rill. Ile pointed out the state of the Police with regard to the
9er:ointment of Constables, and she:tied its defects. •He also
alluded to the' difficulties of arresting perions in Ireland, which
cchld selsbni be effected with the concurrence or without the
cp.-position of the population. ..From these causes, to be efficiect
in his office, a constablehuglit to devote his whole time to its
dutie.i. The Grand Juries who now appointed them could not
grant such salaries as would enable them to do so, and, iticon-
setsuchee the office of .coestable had fallen into a state which it
was most desirable to avoid: If they wished to make the people
-or Ireland respect the law, they must endeavour to ensure its
atiministration with effect. The means of accomplishing this,
. he whe about to propose to the House. Ile was aware that he
might be met with the objection that it was against the prin.
hipsen of the Constitution to -vest such a power in the hands of
the Government as the appointment of these constables. But
he thought the first constitutional duty of every man was.to en-
feeee the observance of the laws. The. appointment cf the chief
coheheble of a henry was no new power in the hands of:Go-
vernment. Several previous Acts had authorised this, and the
oialece now in view fully authorised them in extending the
power to the common constables. He should propose by the
• thin the duties of a constable should be limited to. the
maintenance of the peace, under the directions of the Ma-
gieteates. He knew that the House had rot always met
entat it exnected from the Magistracy of Ireland, but he
"t ought the 'present measure would remove one of the
aire:-Iculties which prevented their acting with that effi-
ciency which rendered a Magistracy. respectable. The
Horn was aware that there were extraordinary measures
cf police now in operation,. which had been attended
with the most happy results; and he did not mean to
irntfiT any thing unfavourable to.those measures when he pro-
._ reed others,
.which he eonsidened would operate a preventive,
emeatead of n remedy for outrage. Various petitions were to
be found upon their Journals, pointing out, in much stronger
teems than he had presumed to use, the defects of the police in
Ire:and. One of these, flows the county of Galway, also al-
1-aeed to the means by wlaich they were to be removed. He
et het:edit no man would object to the proposition that an effec-
tive police in Ireland was desirable. He proposed this mea-
• SU7.,' to the House as the opening of a new era for that country.
By it he hoped to prevent the necessity of keeping up the large
miiitary establishment there, and of employing military force
urea all occasions; which /it was so desirable to avoid, unless in
Gales of open insurrection: With these views he confidently
pr.:hosed-the second reading of the Bill.
flee H. PARNELL agreed as to the defects of the present
system, and admitted that they had even been greater than
stated. He thought, however, that Government, perhaps, from
the circumstance or having eonquered Ireland, were too prone
to call in the military. The great fault was, that there was be-
' vt,xn the Government and the Irish counties no regular organ
cf communication, such as the Lords Lieutenant in England
and tkotlasd. He merely suggested this defect, however, and
weeeld rot venture to point out a remedy. He complained that
aahertain portion of the Magistrates acted very improperly in
seeing a profit of the cases which came before them, and em-
:eying the people in doing gratuitous work for them. Some of
tee Magistrates, too, were au much interested in the holding of
:co and the paying of tithes, that they were supposed to be ac-
cassary in fomenting the disturbances. The people felt the neces-

city of the law, and it was felt too in thecollection of them-Jenne.
Still he thought it wrong at once to appoint armed constables by
the Executive Government, which was in fact a military polin.
It would be better to assimilate the police of Ireland as much as
possible to that of England. It was not fair to blame thegrand
juries, for they. had much to do in little time ; and of this the ap-
pointment of tne constables was only an inferior matter. He
thought a better course than that provided-for by the present
measure would be to give the Magistrates a greater power
in the appointing and the paying of constables. If the object
of the motion were to recommend the appoinahent of an
auxiliary police to 'assist the persons now acting as the regular
Ipo ice, he should give it his most cordial support, as he con-
ceived that such a measure would be productive of the most salu-
tary effects in Ireland. But the present Bill would, in his opi-
nion, produce quite a contrary effect. The Hon. Bart. proceed-
ed to contend, that this Bill, if carried into a law, would have
the effect of disgusting that portion of the Magistracy who
now discharged their duties efficiently, and of making them, in
many instances, absentees. Indeed he could, if necessary,
mention the names of persons upon whom this effect was likely
to be produced. He next objected to the Bill, upon thb ground
of the expellee which it would inflict on the difierent counties.
The salaries of the chief constables and the petty constables
would altogether amount to a charge of between 3,0001. and
4,0001. a year upon each county, while the present charge did
not exceed 7001. or 8001. a year. He thought that, under all
circumstances, it would be most advisable to refer the Bill al-
together to a Committee up stairs. By this means all the ob-
jectionable parts might be rejected, and the whole measure so
remodelled as to effectuate all the beneficial effects which were
contemplated by its enactment.
Mr. PLUNKETT wished to offer a few observations. With
respect to the principle of the measure, and the necessity of
some alteration being made in the system of Police, he thought
there could be no objection. He had had an opportunity of
conversing with manytpersons interested in the state of Ireland,
and he had never yet met with a person who, speaking candidly
and fairly, did not admit that some alteration in the state of the
Police was necessary. Whether the measures proposed by the
Right Eon. Gentleman were exactly those which were best
calculated to improve the Police, was for the House to consider.
His Right Hon. Friend had already stated that the system now
pursued in Ireland was an extraordinary one, and that the ob-
ject of the present measure was to do away with the necessity
of extraordinary measures. His lion. Friend had said, that
this measure might be termed an unconstitutional measure. In
that opinon he differed from him entirely. No new office was
created, and no new.power was given. He could at least say
that no'systein of appointment could be more injurious than the
present system of appointment in Ireland. It was, indeed, to
use the language of the Gentleman who had last spoken, lite-
rally a job. The mode now recommended was to place that
appointment in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. It was cer-
tainly possible that abuses might creep in untigr this system, yet
he thought it as little liable as any other that could be suggested.
The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last was mistaken in supposing
that the provisions of this Bill made it imperative on the Lord
Lieutenant to elect new Magistrates. Upon the subject of ex-
pense also he differed from the Hon. Baronet. The expense
which lie imagined would be-incurred by thepresent system would
• be that which he would now state. Supposing that in each ha-
cony there would be required a chief constable, then taking
250 Chief Constables, at 1301. each .- 1:32,500
5000 Common Constables 351. each - 175,000
4 Inspectors, 5001. each - - 2,000
10 Police _Magistrates, 8001. eadir - 8,000

X 217,500
Under the present system the expenses were as follow :—During
the last year the expense of—
Baronial Constables - - - £28,907
Extra Police ' - . . 102,113
Revenue Police - - 23,104
Military Police - - 24,550

£178,674
The account this stated would leave a difference of about ,
40,0001. The expenditure was greet in the present instance,
and would not be much greater then. There would be a saving,
too, according to the operation of the Bill in the morals of the
people of Ireland. Ought that not to be taken into considera-
tion ? He was willing to admit that the assimilation of the
administration of the laws in Ireland to that of , England was
much to be desired. But the House, when the evil cried for a
remedy, could not wait until that could be carried into effect.
He thought that a measure like the present Bill would be useful,
but any suggestions, and especially from the Right Hon. Baro-
net opposite, would, he -had no doubt, be received with all proper
attention.
Colonel FOSTER wished to have some proof of the charge
which an Honourable Baronet opposite had made respecting
a Magistrate having employed the peasantry to dig his potatoes
free.
Sir H. PARNELL was understood to say that the fact was
notorious. _

General HART contended, that drunkenness was not a pre-
.valent vice. He would support the Bill, as he looked upon it
as a useful one. _

Mr. S. RICE thought where the object was to obtain an
equal administration of justice in Ireland, expense ought not to
be considered. It was, beyond every thing important that
they should see the law equally administered through all Ire-
land. Then' might Irishmen be proud of their country, and
Ireland, instead of being the cause of weakness to England,
would be an unfailing source of strength. Ile objected to this
Bill, because it did not go to accomplish that which was so
desirable; but, on the contrary, went to call forth general in-
dignation against the public authorities, and thus to dispose
the people to evade the law. The law must be enforced tin-
der all circumstances. No one was more ready to admit
this than he was. If they could not enforce the law •by the
constable's staff, they must use the bayonet of the military;.
if the bayonet proved insufficient, let them call-out the artillery,
—break down all opposition,—and enforce obedience to the
law. But he called upon them not to have recourse to such
severities till they were proved to be necessary, and not to dis-
grace the Magistracy of Ireland • till it had been proved that
there were -just grounds for so doing. This plan went to
create three hundred chief constables, -fifteen to each barony,
and in all from 4,500, to 5,000 new officers. • Ile objected to
combining the character of police officer with any situation
whatever connected -with the Revenue. In the present
state of Ireland, if they made the police officer an excise-
man, he would soon be degraded and unfit to act as a public
officer. The only person who could tranquilize Ireland
was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by lowering the duties
on spirits, which would remove the temptation to which the
people in that country were exposed. He did not deny the pro-
priety of puri4ing the Magistracy of Ireland. From .a paper
which he had seen, it appeared that the Magistrates were as
one to twenty-five square miles in those districts where no
disorders had occurred, and to • the population as one to 5,900.
.

In the disturbed counties the Magistrates were as one to seven
and a half square miles, and to the population as one la) 3,043.
From this it would be seed that the evil complained of in the
counties to which he had alluded did not arise from a walt.of
Magistrates, as in those parts there was, rather a redundancy.
He however contended, that it was not in the ry. proposed by
this Bill that that which was a subject of just complaint ought
to be remedied. The Right Hon. Secretary of State for the
Home Department had said that that system of; police which
was established under the Peace PreServalon Bill, it:made per-
nianent, would degenerate into an abuse, and the objec-
tion thus urged appeared to him equally applicable to that
which it was proposed to give to Ireland .under the present
measure. _ _ _ _ _ _

••••..1.,•••
Sir J: NEWPORT boiled the House Would proceed with
deliberation, and before they.adopted this measure, look at the
efforts made in the county of Longford and elsewhere to effect
a Reform, and to determine, when these seemed on the point
of being crowned with success, whether this was the timo to
adopt a total change of system. If this Bill passed, he begged
to aek what security Ireland had that the most respectable
members of the Magistracy would remain in the Commission.
He was authorised by several of them who were now in Lon-
don, to say, that they would feel themselves degraded if it
passed, and would immediately resign. This Bill was in all
its provisions completely at variance with that principle which
had ever been regarded as most beneficial to Ireland—that
which went to assimilate the administration of law there to the
administrstion of law in England. It went to place an insuper-
able difference between them, and instead of inducing the Gentry
to reside at, home, and spend their money there, it gave them
new motiXes for alienating themselves, and for veseng their
capital elsewhere. He therefore could not vote for the measure.
On his conscience he declared that he should feel from the mo-
ment this Bill passed, with any thing like the provisions which
it now contained, he should no longer regard Ireland as his
country.
Mr. PEEL admitted with the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir IL
Parnell) that it was a defect in •the police of Ireland, that there
was not that link of connexion between its Magistracy and the
Government which existed in England, by means of the Lords
Lieutenants of counties. _ There were, it was true, Governors of

counties in Ireland, but they had not the same authority as that
exercised by Lords Lieutenants in England. This was an evil
to which he should wish to see a remedy :applied. With re-
spect to the Magistracy of Ireland generally, he had always
found it defective ; did reform it as Parliament might, it would
still continue defective, owing to the great number of absentee
proprietors from the country. However respectable, however
active and honest their agents in that country might be, they
could never adequately supply the places of the great land-
ed proprietors. At the same time he should not wish to
see the deficiency attempted to be remedied by a ge-
neral extension of stipendary Magistrates.—(Hear,' hear,
hear I)—And k was against this that he had given his

.
opinion on a former occasion, for he thought that the
appointment of stipendiary magistrates in every county would
degenerate into abuse.--(Hear, hear.)—Mill, however, he held
it necessary that Government should have the poWer of appoint..
ing such magistrates in certain cases, for it would be destruc-
tive of all law to allow twenty or thirty miles extent of country
to be .evithout a magistrate, or, what was the same, with magi-
strates who did not act. e would suggest to hisH Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Goulburn) that the stipendiary magistrate should
be appointed only where there was no resident magistrate, or
where he did not do his duty, and that then it should be on the
recommendation of the other magistrates of the county.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—Under any other circumstances, he thought
that the extension of salaried 'magistrates would be an evil.
—As to the general state of the police, it was admitted on
all hands- that the system was so bad that something should
be done: let the House look to the present state of Ireland in
that respect. She had now, not to guard against any external
danger, but to protect the administration of the law, to support
a regular army of 21,000 men, besides 4,000 men ryeomanry
corps on permanent duty; and notwithstanding this force, they
had this extraordinary fact, that in one year there had been 26
murders committed, and only one of the perpetrators had been
brought to justice. As to the expence, that was a considera-
tion which he would admit had been most liberally viewed on
the other side; but it should not be left out of sight, that by
the establishment of an effective police the military expence
would be likely to be very considerably reduced, It was agreed
on all hands that something should be done; now the question
was, in whose hands shbuld the appointment of the stipendiary
magistrates and constables be placed ? It was suggested on
one side, that they be assimilated to the same class in this
country. He for one should not object to that, provided it
could be effectually done; but he apprehended that it would
be very difficult in the commencement. In England the con-
stables were not paid ; but it could not be expected that at
present parties would, be induced to undertake, without salary,
an arduous and unpleasant office, such as that of constable
must be; and the less so, as hitherto the constables appointed
by the grand jury were paid and armed as those who were
appointed by Government. There were thus two experiments
tried. Constables were appointed by Government, and others
were appointed by Grand Juries. But there was a vast dif-
ference in their effective force in favour of those whom Go-
vernment had appointed. This was the case, with very few
exceptions. The Right Hon. Gentleman then contended, that
as the power of appointment by the Government had not hitherto
been abused, it was a fair inference to assert, that it was not
likely to be abused in future. In conclusion he implored the
House not to zeject this measure in its present stage, but to
allow it to go into the Committee. It was a plan for amelio-
rating the condition of Ireland with respect to its police, which
all parties agreed required a remedy. Let it go to a Commit-
tee,
and there they might discuss it, for it was not a party ques-
tion. It was one which arose from a desire to improve the con-
dition of the country; for before they could with safety reduce
the troops, before they could give up the operation of such ex..
traordinary measures as the Peace Preservation Bill, or the In-
surrection Bill, they should have an improved police, and ha-
bituate the people to that which was the greatest of all national
blessings—a general, unvarying, and impartial administration
of justice.—(Hear.)
Mr. A BE RCROMBIE objected to the Bill upon principle,
and considered it every point of view inadequate to redress
the grievances, or improve the condition, of Ireland. He con.
sidered the subject altogether apart from political feeling,
and was glad when he heard that. the Marquis Wellesley
had been appointed to the Chief Governorship of that
country. He did not object to the renewal of the Insurrec-
tion Act, because hehad not then the information to go upon,
and he wished to give the new Administration a fair trial.—
But he must say that this Bill was calculated to do great
harm by increasing the spirit of absenteeship, and lowering
the character of the Magistracy of Ireland; one of whom
had recently told him, that if the Bill should pass, he would
throw up his cemmission. Now was' tto be expected that the
respectable Magistrates would allow' themselves to be bearded
by a set of constables over whose appointment or conduct,
ac-
cording to the provisions of this Bill; they could have no con-
troul. He was convinced that, by this provision, all the truly
respectable Magistrates would be withdrawn, and that no honest
or independent- ran would remain in the Commission. lie
had formerly heard it stated that the Marquis Wellesley had
pursued the same plan of gnvernment in India as Buonaparte
in Europe, and he thought. this Bill was not calculated to re-
move theimpression, as invent say that the Lord Lieutenant
and the people Composted thLt nation, without any intermediate
Authority.: On these 'gratin& he thought the Bill ought not
to pass into a law.. '"
Lord LONDONDERRY observed, that as there was but
one feeling that the Police of Ireland, as at present constituted,
was inadequate to the exigences of the nation, and as all
were in favour of an improved system of Police, there was
sufficient ground for the committal of the Bill. He thought
the discussion hitherto, as it went, to the details rathelthan the
principle ought to have been reserved for the Committee. He
disclanned all party feeling on the subject, and was sure that
his Right Hon. Friend did not, by the Bill, affect any exten-
sion of patronage. He contended, therefore, that they might to
go into the Committee.
Lord ALTHORP stated that his objection being to the
principle of the Bill rather than the details, he could state what
that objection was in that stage of the Bill. more seasonably than
in a Committee. The Noble Lord commented on the various
provisionsbf the Bill, which he contended were against the
principles of the Constitution ; it was a Bill which ought not
to be entertained in a free country.
The Rightiffort. CHARLES. GRAN'T, regretted that he felt
himself called-on tesoppose the pe-oposed measure of his Right
Hon. Friend. The aubjecte he observed, was not new, and had
been before under the eonsideration of the late Irish Govern-
ment. ' The grand objects 'undoubtedly, of good Government
were the security of property, and the due administration ofjus-
tice, but it was equally necessary. to provide that neitherOf these
objects were procured at the eXpenseesf greater and paramount
objects. This, in fact,wits the distinction be4ween an 'arbitrary
and a free Government. The House should first ask itself if
the evil complained of had been proved satisfactorily -next,. it
should inquire, did the remedy now proposed overstep the prin-
ciple ; and, lastlea had any other less objectionable remedy than
the present, been adready,tried ? The object of this pill was to
create a sort of armed police, a species of gendarmerie in Ire-
land ; it would, in fact, place the whble of the country under the
control °I an hired Police and a stipendiary Magistracy, tnerely
subject to the will of the Lord Lieutenant himself. •As tb the
necessity of the measures, they were all agreed, Of the'lla-
gistracy,of Ireland, ,he wished to speak with the utmost defer-
ence; certainly many had executed their ditty manfully under
particular circumstances of danger; but there were somenvho
were the creatures of political patronage,. whilst others were
merely political adventurers, and the toolla a most corrupt
system of local political 'cabal. These were a disgrace to
the. high commission they held. Was this an evil in prin- -
ciple or one of practice ? The Howe should shape •thesre-
medy to the veil. Each,barony was to 'be empowered t ap-
point its constables froth ten to twenty in number. It wal not
iinfrequently that the head of one faction obtained 'a warrant
against the head of another', whilst the last had ohtained.a war-
rant agaiest the former from another magjetrate. Thus. bpth
constable appeared; each at the head of hiss own party, tosexe-.
cite a warrant, one of which must be against law.. The law
o was nat present fairly called into execution; then why try-
any other measure when the legitimate fernedies in existence
were not resorted to ? The rem* should be directed to the
practice, not, to the' principle. - Thg Right lon. Gentleman_
was therefore bound to' pi ove that no otheratud more legiti.,
mate mole of remedy, such as the eiclasion of .unworthy per=
sons from the magistracy,
.vroirebe. ellicient.. 13 looked. back
to-the year 1700, and•Totned'he,,trib. complaiEts disseminated
as to the constitutioti-ottlieretwgistracy. Th,? evil :.vas subse-
quently found to exi4t`lnl7B7.• It was true ti h.i t constable
was thus appointed in each barony.---.( A' great noise Was here
heard within the House, and h cry of Order ! .Berr, bee- 1")
-The Honourable M'esober assured the House this would be
found a eptestion -Of.alMostsequal importance to this country
as to Ireland.—(lleare,liear !)--In the selectione of the con-
stables great caution °tight to-be exerted. "By the election of
gratuitous constables, Something might be done to engage the
people in the support of its own Government. The experiment
of the county of Longford was decisive of the possibility of go-
verning a county by the ordinary constables, who for five years
past had been accustomed to take into custody alone the most
popular delinquents at a fair or public pattern without' expe-
riencing any opposition. He objected to this Bill, which, for
the offence of.five counties, would place under an interdict the
whole 32 counties of Ireland. Was this just or according to the
practice of the law of this country, to which the movers of this
Bill had affecteno assimilate the mode of their Government in
Irelp.nd? There were several reasons why lie should object to the
present Bill. His first objection was to be constantly having re-
course to summary legislativemeasures. In this Manner, for near-
ly 60 years, the affairs of Ireland had been mismanaged from time
to time. They had begun with the White Boy Act, followed by
the Gunpowder Act; and inlater times the Peace Preserva-
tion Act had been introduced. All these things had deeply
riveted in the minds of the people of Ireland, that means
had been resorted to by his Majesty's Ministers for the Govern-
ment of Ireland, which dared riot to be resorted to in govern-
ing England. All this, too, led to a system of espionage and
social treachery in the country. To the summary interposition
of the Legislature, mid the interferenae of the local govern-
ment, the Supineness and self-abasemgft of the Country.' fen-
tlemen of Ireland was to be attributed. Thus the Gentry of
Ireland felt aifferently from the Gentry of England, and were
not so closely identified with the protection of the subject or
the preservation of property. It was confidently anticipated
in Ireland, that it was ntended by this Bill to supersede
the authority of the Magistracy of Ireland. If the High

Constable of the county were answerable for the tranquillity
of the county, and the stipendiary Magistrate was to be
the head of the whole Magistracy of Ireland, would not
the Irish Gentry very properly repel the idea that they
were to be the subalterns of the 'High Constable and
the stipendiary Magistrate in preserving the peace of the
county, and refuse to act at all ? This was to place the
whole responsibility of the government of Ireland upon the
shoulders of the Lord Lieutenant. In addition to this, he ob-
jected that it proposed to erect by this system of Police above
300 Places, at the rate of 1501. a 3tear, to be filled by a set of
men perfectly armed, well disciplined, and versed in the whole
tactics of espionage. These were to be under the superintend-
ence of 25 superintendents, at a much higher salary of course,
from their superior respectability ; and these again to be placed
under the government of five stipendary Alagistrates at high
salaries. Now, however highly he thought of Lord Wellesley,
he certainly was not disposed unnecessarily to trust him with
such extraordinary powers. It was the duty of the Legisla-
ture to provide against every. possible negligence or rigour on
the part of those intrusted with the reins of Government. Ile
thanked the House for its attention, and sat down, assuring
them that in subMitting his objections to the Bill, he had done
so as Much thrbugh a conviction that it was a duty he owed
to this country, as he conceived it to be a duty due to Ireland
herself.—(Hear l)
Mr. R. MARTIN admitted the highly improper manter of
the appointment of the constables in each county ; but so diffi-
cult was it to proceed with correctness in the appointment of
those constables, that he regretted to say, because he had not
agreed to a list put into his hands by an Hon. Colleague of his,
he had lost above 800 votes upon the occasion of his election.
He knew the Irish nation was prepared for the change, and he
hoped no obstruction to the Bill would be interposed by any
Gentleman acquainted with the real condition of Ireland.
Sir N. COLTHURST wished to know why the milder mea-
sures spoken of by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grant) had
not in his time been put ea the proof, since he thought they
would have been sufficient ? Something must be done for the
Irish Gentry; who were at present blockaded in their own
houses by the insolence of nightly marauders and noon-day
insurgents ?
Mr. GRATTAN opposed the necessity of enforcing the pre-
servation of the peace by measures so unconstitutional and vio-
lent. A stipendiary police ought always to be watched with
Constitutional jealousy; and in his opinion no necessity had
been made out for the adoption of the Bill now proposed by the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland.
Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD had expected a very diffe-
rent conclusion from the arguments of his Right Hon. Friend.
Was it to be endured that things were to remain as they had gone
on for several months past ?—(Cheers)—or was it to be expected
that any good could follow from pursuing the old system of
Government, under a different ,modification of the system ?
One of the great benefits of the present Bill was, that they got
rid of the Peace Preservation Bill to a great extent. The con-
stabulary of the country was defective in the extreme, and re-
quired an exprees regulation anew by Parliament. This was
one great reason for permitting the Bill to proceed for the pur-
pose of improving its details in a subsequent stage. He believed
little would be done until the magistracy of the country had
prepared a constabulary, active, intelligent, and efficient to the
universal preservation of the peace of Ireland. In voting for the
Bill he did not pledge himself to support all the details of it,
but merely supported it with a view to adapt it to the exigences
of the occasion, as a boon to the well affected in Ireland.
Mr. BROUGHAM apelogised at that hour for entering
into the question, when the able, speech of the Right Honour-
able Member, (Mr. Grant).remained unanswered. He thought,
though unconnected with Ireland, that the Irish native should
be made aware that, the English Members, as well as the
Irish, were attentive to what was going on as to any new re-
gulation proposed by the Right Honourable Secretary for Ire-
land, for altering its constitution, if it might be said to have
any. He saw no reason for permitting this Bill to go into
a Committee, because the objections against it were not found-
ed on its details, but went directly against the principle.—
They should see whether the present system was so radically
bad as that it must be torn up by the roots. His principal objec-
tion to the plan was, that it was to be in perpetuity. No gentle-
man would seek the office of Magistrate. Under the provisions
of this Bill no English gentleman would suffer hiinself to be so
degraded. It was a jest to talk of constables under this Act being
constables at the disposal of the Magistrates. This Bill also gave
a power of levying money which he looked at with much distrust.
Reheard no defence offered for this part of the Bill. He could not
admit the necessity of the measure after the testimonies borne
to the contrary that night with respect to'various districts. It
was said that it would prevent the necessity of recurring to tem-
porary expedients. This was as bad as any of the temporary
expedients adopted. lie objected to the Bill as being expen-
sive, perilous, unconstitutional and unnecessary ; but, above
all, it went to perpetuate a bad system. He would therefore
move that it be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. FITZGERALD and Mr. GRANT explained.
Mr. S. CAREW supported the Bill.
Mr. DOM. BROWN said a few words against the measure.
An lion. Member tinder the Gallery, whose name could not
be ascertained, opposed it.
Lord EBRINGTON said, it was subversive of a free con-
stitntion.—The House then divided— •

For the Amendment -
For the Second Bean -
• Majority -
The Bill was then read the second time.

- ---53

The Marquis i(l,io66KiiEfißY, in conseqiience of the
lateness of the hour, declined bringing on further discussions
upon the Corn Importation Bill, and fixed the Report for
3londay.
The West India Trade Bill, and the Colonial. Trade Bill,
were read the third time and passed.
ILL-TREATMENT OF ANIMALS RILL,
Mr:R. MARTIN moved the third reading of the 111-treat-
ment of Cattle Bill.
Mr. MONCK moved, as an Amendment, that it be read. a
third time that day six months.
Mr. SCARLE fT opposed the Bill, not because he did not
concur with the Hon. Mover, in disapproving of the ill-treat-
ment of animals, but because the oftencei propOsed to be pun-
ished by this Bill were of too vague and indefinite a nature to
become the subject of criminal animadversion.
Mr. lIOLFORD recommended the Iron. Member to with-
**draw his Bill.
Mr. R. MARTIN expressed his determination to persevere
in his moticin. •
The Gallery was Bleared for a division, and strangers were
not again admitted ; hut we understood that. the Bill was read
a third time and passtd wiihout a division.
Adjourned at HALF-PAST ONE O'CLOCK.