The Sun.
London, England, 1838-02-27 00:00:00

elections." I recollect him also saying, " I dent pledge myself from the charge of foul perjury in the honest and conscientious
to fix a day, because some extraordinary contingency may oc- discharge of their judicial functions ?—( Hear.) When I hear
cur with respect to the petitions which may prevent me fixing a night after night in this House such grave imputations made
day." Well the day arrived—we were panting with anxiety against the great measure of Reform which was passed by the
for a knowledge of this extraordinary contingency—but the Noble Lord and his colleagues—when lam told at one time
Noble Lord, when the day came, stated That, on referring that there was more intimidation, more corruption, and more
to the petitions, and finding nothing extraordinary in them, expense at the last elections than at any other which preceded
he would, instead of bringing forward his promised motion, them—when I hear the reformed Parliament accused of foul
adopt the terms of mine." He did adopt them, and did fix a perjury in the dischaege of its judicial functions—when charges
day. He was successful on the second reading of his Bill—it are made which must necessarily lead the public to infer that
was carried by a larger majority than is usual on Ministerial judicial functions cannot be trusted to Committees of the House,
questions.—(Laughter.) Why did he not persevere ? He and that, consequently, they should be equally distrusted as
fixed a day ea which election petitions were to be tried, and to the discharge of their Legislative duties also, I own I
never has Government manifested the slightest anxiety about cannot repress my surprise at the Noble Lord opposite so
their Bill.--( Hear, hear.) This is a Bill declaratory of the ligtly aaquiescing at such effects being imputed to his own
intentions of its authors, and what is its last clause? Not one favourite measure.—( Loud cheers.) If you have the power
for red into it by a powerful majority, but originally brought —I do not call upon you to prosecute those resolutions by any
into it by the framer. It is to this effect—" And be it vindictive punishment—but if you have the power, I call upon
enacted that the operation of this Act shall commence from you, as you would retain your hold upon the public mind, to
the last day of the present session." Therefore, Sir, I must defend from the unjust imputation of foul perjury those Mem-
beg leave to deny that Government have ever shown any bers of your own House who fearlessly, fully, and honestly
serious intention of substituting a new system for trying perform their duty.—(Cheers.) Do not—as you will do if
controverted elections.—( Hear.) My objection to fixing an you connive at this amendment—permit a charge of this na-
immediate period for the operation of the Bill was made be- ture to be drawn into a daily precedent. I introit of you to
cause I foresaw that the effect of its discussion in the stormy disregard and to discharge from your minds any threat, or any
conflict of opinion would be that the trial of these petitions dread of raising the Hon. and Learned Gentleman into an un-
would be indefinitely postponed--( Hear)—and I thought it due elevate .n by your vote of to-night.—( Hear, hear.) Do . •
I was necessary that the House should decide immediately as to that which you believe in your hearts to be consistent with' e.
who had a right to take part in its deliberations. The Hon. truth and justice, and believe me when I assure you that such e
and Learned Member for Dublin proposed a plan which would conduct will amply repay you for disregarding all false
have met all objections against the present tribunals, because appeals to your prejudices or your passions. The Right Hon.
it would have taken from this House its judicial power. But Gentleman resumed his scat amid loud cheers.
if his accusation is unjust we ought not for a moment to listen The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose
to his proposal, because it would hare the effect of taking from amidst loud cries of " Question." Order being restored,
this House the power of adjudicating on its own privileges. he said—Notwithstanding all the power and commanding
Now I come to the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home influence of the Right Hon. Baronet—notwithstanding his
Department, and his arguments, by which he tried to con- capability, and his admirable tact in selecting those topics by ;'
vince the Hoase that it is proper the motion should give way which he knows how best to recommend himself to the House
to the other Orders of the Day. The Noble Lord seemed —surely when he cannot make a stronger case than he has
surprised at the appeal made by my Noble Friend. How is put, his cause must he weak indeed, and his advocacy only
it possible after his own public notice that he should wish us furnishes stronger reasons why the House should adopt the
to pi oceed to the Grders of the Day ?—( C heers.) He amendment of my Noble Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet
did not get up when my Noble Friend gave notice of his mo- and his Friend fieem to enjoy a great triumph in a verbal in-
tion to dissuade him from it, but he got up with the greatest accuracy of the notice of my Noble Friend the Secretary of
impatience, and said, "As soon as you have decided with the Home Department. The whole object of the notice
respect to your breach of privilege I will bring forward mine." and its legical tendency was quite opposite to the meaning
(" No," from Lord J. Russell.) I should like to know in attempted to be given to it by the Right Hon. Baronet. The
what way I have misinterpreted him. Ido not mean to say object of my Noble Friend's motion was to show the conee-
'he then wished to pass to the Orders of the Day—l allude to quences to which, if followed up, the motion of the Noble
his promised motion, a decision on which he now shrinks from. Member for North Northamptonshire would lead. What wilL
The notice of the Noble Lord was, " provided we entertained be the result if the motion be agreed to ? We have not heard.
the present motion." Why, what a mierable quibble is this the course which, in that event, is proposed to be taken. I
—( Loud cheers.) lie said that, if my Noble Friend brought understand there has been no statement made of that nature,
forward his motion he would submit to the consideration of but by inference is that there is no intention of going any
the House a breach of privilege alleged to have been commit- further. As the Right Honourable Baronet has called upon
ted two years since. That is, he said, that if you visit with the House to protect its Members, but as he at the same time
any punishment or censure this charge of perjury against your deprecated any harsh measures, I have a right to assume that
Members, he would bring forward a charge made two years the intention is here to stop with the resolution. Tho first
since—if my friends around me, who have a duty to perform, resolution charged the Honourable and Learned Member for ,
are accused of foul perjury in the discharge of that duty, and Dublin with falsehood and calumny in attributing perjury
ask the House for its protection, and the House should give to the Committees of the House, and the second resolution
that protection, then must a Right Reverend Prelate be charged him with a breach of the privileges of the House.
brought forward for a charge delivered two years ago ? Perhaps the Right Honourable Member for Montgomery- ,
That was the satisfaction to be given by the Noble Lord. Now, shire, who is so well versed in the precedents of Parlia-
Sir,
what are the simple facts of the case? Here is a charge of ment, will tell the House whether he is aware of any in-
foul
perjury preferred against Hon. Members of this House, stance in which such resolutions were carried without being .;
acting in their judicial capacity. It might have been made followed up by an order for taking the person affected by them
during the excitement of a political dinner, but there was an into custody. If you pass these resolutions, and then pro-
opportunity given to him to retract.--( Hear, hear.) He was coed no further in the matter, a more miserable proceeding
not called on suddenly to answer it. Due notice was given of was never before adopted by the collective wisdom--(Loud
the motion of my Noble Friend. He (the Hon. and Learned Ministerial cheers.) We will suppose that an imputation has ,
Member) could have apologised. He could have said—" I been cast upon the House. Will these resolutions remove
have made the charge—l am sorry for it, and think no mere it ? On the contrary, by reading these papers which will
about it ;" but he took the more manly course of distinctly and be printed in the votes you circulate the charge through
deliberately avowing, in his place in that House, that he had the world. The Right Honourable Baronet said he had ,
made the charge, and that he adhered to it.—( Hear, hear.) two objects in view. The first is, that the House should
The Hon. Members serving on these Committees appeal for be set right in the public mind ; but how will these rose-
protection. Now, the first question I ask is, are the charges lutions effect that abject ? The next is to afford protectiom
well founded? I suppose that is material to the issue ; and the to the Election Committees ; but he should know that the,
first witness I shall cite is the Noble Lord opposite. Ho had public will judge of these Committees, upon other grounds than.
heard of this charge before, and said that, in his opinion there a party vote in this House, or words improperly used at the- •
was no intentional perjury on any side, although when he saw Crown and Anchor Tavern. Ido not intend to defend those
so much joy at the names called over on Committees, he was in- words. On the contrary, I think them highly objectionable. I
coined to fear that the decisions would be influenced by party. admit that they were in themselves a breach of privilege.—
He allowed, however, that great difficulty arose from the mis- (Cheers.) Of this there can be no doubt; but then comes
understanding as to the right of voting in Ireland, which was the question, is it expedient to take the step which is proposed
particularly striking in the two Longford Committees, and he to us ? How many breaches of the privileges of the House
said that, without imputing perjury in a case where two Irish take place, hour after hour, of which it would be most expe-
Judges had differed, there was a great latitude for party bias, dient to take cognizance ? Now, with respect to imputations
and this without charging deliberate perjury to any one. If of this nature, I would ask, are lion. Members opposite aware
. you thus acquit Members of perjury why then do you refuse to that charges have been made in the most solemn manner by' e
protect them ?—( Cheers.) You acknowledge that they de- ecclesiastical authorities against members of the Church bar-
sire protection, and yet you take so step to give it to them. ing violated their oaths with respect to Chapters ? Did the
—( Hear, hoar.) The Government acknowledge the charge persons thus implicated seek to vindicate themselves ? No—
of foul perjury to be unfounded, yet they refuse the protec- they relied upon their own characters to sustain them against
tion of these resolutions.—( Hear, hear.) Now what are the the imputation. You may be assured that any proceeding of
grounds of refusal ? The Noble Lord says that there are this nature against an individual, will only produce a re-action
prejudices in the public mind upon this subject ; but is it not in his favour.—( Hear, bear.) I again repeat, Ido not mean
our duty to set right the public mind? Is it our duty to to justify the language of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
acquiesce in a charge of wilful and corrupt perjury against I admit was highly objectionable. But if this House inter-
our Members for fear the public mind should entertain crro- pose vindictively, for the purpose, as it is called, of asserting
neous impressions ? I say that the way to encourage the its character, the inference will be raised that the House,
public mind to entertain these matters is to shrink from the unable to rely upon its own character for support, has recourse
honest discharge of our duty, and when we feel a charge is to force for its vindication.—(Hear, hear.)
unfounded to be afraid to rebut it. The Noble Lord's Sr, F. POLLOCK—Sir, I cannot be satisfied to give a
excuse is his ()ejection to the present mode of trying glee- silent vote upon this question after the speeches which I have
tion petitions, but is not the distinction perfectly obvious heard from the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
between a wish to change the tribunal and a direct charge and the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home Depart_
of perjury? Is it not perfectly consistent to admit that merit. They seem to argue that these who oppose the.
the present system is wrong—to feel a great desire to see it amendment necessarily deny what all admit, namely, that there e
changed—and yet also to :wish to resist this charge of foul and are defects in the constitution of the election Committees.
wilful perjury against Members of this House ?—(Loud They seem to think that we adopt the existing tribunals, and
cheers.) The Noble Lord says that if we wish to elevate arc opposed to any alteration. I for my part, may claim to
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin we will pass a con- have as mush experience as any Hon. Member of the House
sure on him. If we visit him with unjust censure of course of the working of these tribunals, and lam satisfied that
we will, but if his charge of perjury be unjust, why should the there is no Member more alive to their defects, or more ready
House of Commons shrink from saying so ? Because an erro- to listen to any suggestion which may appear to be adapted
neous impression on the puhlic mind elevates an individual into to remedy the evils.—(Hear, hear.) But it is quite a dif-
false importance, is the HouseSof Commons to shrink from its ferent thing to be satisfied as to the defects of the present eye-
duty ?—( Hear, hear.) If you do so, if you reject these reso- tern and to make a charge against the Members who form the
lutions, what is to become of the petitions ?—( Hear, hear.) Committees of wilful and corrupt perjury. And I further
Suppose a petitioner thinks proper to come to your bar and say that if such a charge against the Members of this House
charge you with foul perjury, will you resent it, or will your were well-founded the sooner they were deprived both of their
answer be to move the Order of the Day ?—( Cheers.) What judicial and legislative functions the better both for there—,
will you do with it ? What was your doctrine in the case of selves and the country.—(Loud cheers.) But Ido not be-
the petition against the Roman Catholic Members ? It was here the charge. The defects of these tribunals do not arise
to reject the petition, as containing a charge of perjury against from any wilful desire to distort evidence of facts, but because
Members of this House ; and we have an equal right to resent questions are involved to the adjustment of which those who
a Member of Parliament bringing forward a similar charge. compose tho tribunals are not competent. Now, to the ques-
Let mo ask you what you will do in this case ? Suppose a Lion before the House, I fully concur with the Right Honour-
Member
who is forced to serve on these tribunals says that he able Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and the Noble Lord
is ready to discharge his duty—a most painful and arduous the Member for North Northamptonshire, that when charges
duty—to sacrifice his time, to do it according to his best of this sort are made in the public prints and out of doors, that
ability and the dictates of his conscience—supposo he appeals it would be most impolitic and unwise to notice them. My
to you for protection from a charge of perjury, and you refuse reason for voting as I intend to vote is, because of the peen- '•
it. If he then should say, " I will not exercise judicial funs- liar position which the person who made this charge occupies
tions subject to the odium of such a charge, I refuse to serve in the House.—(Ministerial cheers, followed by counter
e;
on the Committee," will you commit him to Newgate ? cheers.) I cannot forget that that Honourable and Learned-
( Hear, hear.) Will you permit the innocent man, who wishes Gentleman was petitioned against in a former Parliament ; he
to discharge his duty, to be punished? He will not continue is also petitioned against in this Parliament; and his case
to act if you do not give him the protection enjoyed by every is to be decided by a Committee of this House. This, .
Judge and Jury in the land. Suppose ho declines, not from then, is a case which calls for particular notice. The
pique or from any personal feeling, but because be keys you Honourable and Learned Gentleman has denounced as pee
have destroyed his utility as a Judge, have permitted him to jured Committees by one of which he has been unseated.
be denounced as a foul perjurer, will the same majority which the petition now pending be decided against him lie can, with
we are told will negative the motion of my Noble Friend impunity, denounce as perjurers those by whom the deci-
commit that Member for a breach of privilege ?—( Hear.) sion is made ; if the decision be in his favour he will per-
Sir, if these charges be, as I believe them to be, without haps call it an honourable exception to the general rule.--
foundation—(" Hear, hear," and " No," from the Ministerial ( Loud cheers.) Sir, this is one of the reasons why I think •
benches)—I can only say that the two Noble Lords on the the charge so gravely made should not be suffered to pas
other side concur in my opinion—if they be without founda- unnoticed by the House ; but, more than this, when a Nobl
tion I have heard no arguments to convince me that the House Lord, serving the Crown, and leading the Government in this.
of Commons should not do in this case what justice would House, rises, not as I had at first supposed, to repel the
compel them to do.—( Hear.) I recollect a case analogous charge, and say " not guilty"—but when I see that Noble Lord
to this. In 1834 a charge was preferred against certain Irish in effect identifying himself with the accusation.—( Lou.
Members by a Member of this House (Mr. Hill.) It re- cheers, which drowned the conclusion of the sentence.) The
ferred to a report of a conversation with certain Irish glom- Noble Lord did not, like the Chancellor of the Exchequer-
bers respectiu' the votes they were obliged to give. This and the Secretary at War, disclaim the charge which w:
was a charge affecting the Members from Ireland. Now how made. No ; leading her Majesty's Government in this House
did the House meet that charge ? On the very first day of the Noble Lord rises at once in his place, throws himself for
the Session it was brought under consideration by Mr. ward in defence of the lion. and Learned Member f
O'Connell, who felt it was for the public interest that the Dublin, and of coarse shares with him in the responsi
honour of the Irish Members should be vindicated.—( A bility. After the course which had been taken Ido think' -
laugh.) Mr. O'Connell then said that after the charge it would not be becoming in the House to agree to the
which had been brought his Hon. Friends were anxious for amendment.—(Hear, hear.) The charge made without has •
an inquiry, that the friends of air. Sheil were deeply irate- been repeatedewithin doors, and we now call upon the House
rested in his character, and that although two or three Mem- to declare by its vote that the charge is untrue. We hare
leers had succeeded in vindicating their character, that the been asked whether the resolutions are to be followed up by
same privilege should be extended to all. He thought the any other proposition ? Ido not know what is the intention
House could not in justice refuse to accede to this demand. of the Noble Mover of the resolutions ; but when he says the
The constituents of the lion. and Learned Member for Tip- charge is a false and scaadalous one, and designates it afi
perary ought to know whether their representative was worthy breach of the privileges of this House, I, as an individual, feel
of their conadence, and for his sake, as well as for the clia- myself perfectly justified in voting that the charge is false,
ratter of all who were involved in the charge, the oppor- and that it is a breach of the privileges of the House, with-
tunity of investigation would not be refused. Now, Sir, out being called upon to follow up that vote by moving a come
perhaps the lion. Members on this side of the House who mittal to the Tower.—( Hear, bear.) What I ask would be
have served upon Committees, and who, therefore, come the position of Members of this House if the resolutions be
under the sweeping charge of the Honourable and Learned not proceeded with? Suppose I, or any other Member of
Member for Dublin, have friends and constituents also this House, were appointed to serve on a Committee—an
who take an interest in their characters and conduct, and Hon. Member gets up and accuses me of wilful perjury.
who would desire to see them freed from such an aspersion..-_ What is the course which a Gentleman should pursue under
(Hear, hear.) Will it not be granted that other Members of such circumstances ? He has only one of two courses—either
this House might be as sensitive for their honours as either to demand personal satisfaction, or throw himself upon the
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin or Tipperary, and House for protection. It is a thing which cannot bo passed
would as Naturally and as anxiously as they desire to be freed over, and if the House will not afford protection, personal
from the imputation of foul perjury thus made against them ? conflict must be the result. I, perhaps, shall be told that such • ,
Is it not fair to suppose that on public grounds alone, and put- could not be the result in this case, but that is only an additional
ting out of the question all private and personal feelings, reason for yielding protection to such as serve upon Commitees,
Members of the House of Commons serving on Election and who comes to a fair, honest, and conscientious decision of the
Committees, and labourieg under such a charge, should come case submitted to him.—(Cheers.) You admit that the charge
down to this House and seek its protection ?—(Hear, hear.) is false and slanderous, and then you, in effect, say that it ie of
I remember that the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (then so little consequence what public opinion is with respect to
Member for Middlesex) viewed the matter in a different light this House, that you will allow one of your own Members to
from that in which the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin say, not that the Committees were mistaken in their views, not
looked upon it; and he advised the Hon. and Learned Gentle- that they came to a partial decision, but that they were guilty
man not to press the subject upon the consideration of the of wilful and corrupt perjury.—( Hear.) You will permit this,
House. What did the lion. and Learned Gentleman say in and then you argue that the House should not take any notice -
reply to this suggestion ? Did ho net then say, No, this is no of such conduct. If by going into the Orders of the Day you
vague and anonymous charge, made by the public press, but a shrink from and evade this question, the House will be acting '
direct and substantial statement, made by a Member of Parlia- a most unworthy part. I call upon you now to show to the
,
ment ?"—( Cheers.) A motion was at that time also made to get country that you will not suffer the character of the House of
rid of the subject by the previous question, but I and others Commons to be thus insulted. I call upon you to vindicate
then thought it was in fairness due to the Irish Members then yourselves; and I say that it is necessary for the House, both
implicated to grant them the inquiry, and we voted accord- in its legislative and judicial character, to repel the charge
ingly. The charge in the present instance stands upon pre- which has been made against it.—( Loud cheers.)
cisely the same grounds. It was made by a Member of this The CHISHOLM rose, amidst loud cries of " Question,
House, who, so far from denying, re-asserts it in his place question," and " Divide, divide," which prevented our catch-
here. Hon. Members opposite who have spoken for the ing a single sentence. We understood the Hon. Gentleman to
amendment of the Noble Lord the Secretary' at War, whilst deny, as one of the Marylebone Committee, that he was ac-
they admit that the tribunal for the adjudesation of election tuated by any party feelings.
cases is defective, still insist that the charge of perjury doge An HON. element whose name we could not learn, next
not apply. Why then will they not adopt the precedent este- attempted to address the House, but with like success. He
blished in the instance of the charge made against the Irish repelled the charge of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Members on the occasion alluded to, and thus yield tale pro- Dublin. •
teCtiOn of the House to its own Members, and rescue. them I Mr. Alderman COPELAND must say that, with reaPec4