The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-12 00:00:00

call upon the House to agree to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
There were comptent persons in Ireland to work such
a measure. The Chalicelier ought to be one, from his
knowledge of the law, If he was not satisfied on this
point, and no member divided the House at that stage, he
begged to give notice that he would take the sense of the
House upon it at a future stage.
Sir A. BROOKE could not concur with his Honour-
able and Genera Friend, who beet just sat down. On
the contrary, lie Lelieved that under the Bill, the value
of property would be raised five years' purchase at least.
At the same time he must urge on the attention of the.
Government, the necessity of compelling the owners of
land to provide employment and subsistence for the peo-
ple on their estates. Absenteeism was the great evil of
Ireland, and it was one of the most essential and im-
portant changes they could make, to compel absentees,
in some way or other, to contribute to the support of a
fair proportion of the people on their estates. He had
on various occasions urged this point on the attention of
the House, and would continue to do so whenever he
lied an opportunity. In the mealtime he would give
his vote for the second reading of this Bill, believing
thet its principle was an excellent one.
Mr. TURNER thought that many of the provisions
with respect to the Commissioners were of a most ex-
traordinary and unprecedented character.—(Hear,
hear.) In the Slave Compensation Act, instructions
were laid down for the guidance of the Commissioners,
and he thought that in this case borne such instruc-
tions should be provided, and especially binding
them to look to the interest of the first mort-
gagee, who might be altogether sacrificed by the present
Bill.—(Hear, hear.) A very large sum of money had
been invested by English capitalists on the security of
Irish estates, and he thought it was the duty of the
House to protect these interests.—(Hear, hear.) Some
of the provisions of the measure were such as ho had
never seen in any Bill before.—(Hear, hear.) The Com-
missioners might compel the production of titles, and it
was well known that in certain cases this might materi-
ally reduce the value of the estate as a security. In ad-
dition to this, the Commissioners bad the power of setting
aside the decisions of the Court of Equity, which he
thought a most dangerous precedent, and calculated to
be productive of great mischief in practice. He objected
to the clause which excluded the jurisdiction of a Court
of Equity over the decisions of the Commissioners, and
denied relief against whatever determinations they might
arrive at with respect to the sale of any estates. He did
not intend dividing the House on the principle of the
Bill, but he trusted that the provisions to which he had
just called attention would be either expunged or
modified.

Mr. SADLEIR gave general support to the Bill, and
answered some of the objections urged by the Noble and
Learned Member for Coventry. Some such measure was
absolutely necessary for the welfare of all classes in Ire-
land. While the number of decrees against property
had greatly increased, the sales effected in the various
western offices had steadily decreased. The Incum-
brance Estates Bill of last session was wholly impracti-
cable. Not a rood of land would ever be sold under it,
and he trusted the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would
consent to repeal it by the measure under consideration,
and embody in it the one or two useful and valuable
clauses that Act contained. It was quite competent for
the Legislature to enable the Commissioners to extin-
guish intermediate interests, and commute them for a
terminable rent-charge. There were two millions of
acres of land in Ireland, held under joint tenancy, and he
thought there ought to be a clause inserted in the Bill to
facilitate the sale of undivided or unpartitioned portions
of property. The mode proposed to enforce the orders
of the Commissioners in England and Scotland was
rather cumbrous. There should be summary and
distinct power given them to enforce their
orders in England and Scotland, as well as in Ireland.
He did not know how it was intended to deal with the
question of arrears of rent, but he thought the Commis-
sioners ought to be empowered to deal with it, and not
allow it to remain a practicable barrier between the
landlord and tenant. When estates were thoroughly
bankrupt the Commissioners should be placed in a posi-
tion to put the Act in force, without any application be-
ing made to them for that purpose by incumbrancers.
Ho pressed on the consideration of the Government the
necessity of giving a cheap and summary mode of en-
forcing the payment of arrears of poor•rate, by the sale
of land. The Bill was not clear on this subject. It re-
quired simplification, and an easier mode of coming at
the landed proprietor for his arrears of rate, without do-
ing injustice to any party. They couldsafely entrust the
adjudication of matters connected with the recovery of
arrears of poor-rate to the assistant barristers, and have
their civil bill decrees registered as judgments in Dublin,
and thus proceed against the land like all other judg-
ments. He thought an amendment might be introduced
into the Bill during the session which would make
landed property in Ireland a convertible security for
money. If that were done, so that money could be ob-
tained for the permanent improvement of the soil, he felt
that it would do more for the landed proprietors than any
measure which had been proposed.—(Hear.)
Mr. KEOGEI, after alluding to some remarks which
had been made by the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr.
Turner), said he was of opinion that the Bill was capable
of doing the greatest amount of good to the bulk of the
people of Ireland. He thought the objections urged by
the Hon. Member for Coventry were not well founded,
and were met by two clauses i❑ the Bill. He thought,
also, they had no right to suppose that incompetent per-
sons would be appointed by Government to fill the im-
portant offices of Commissioners, or that if there was
any danger they would arrive at an unfair or vicious
conclusion in the performance of their duties. With
reference to what had been said by his Hon. and Gallant
Friend the Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne)
about the impropriety of attempting to do away with
those fences and guards which ought to surround pro-
perty in Ireland, he (Mr. Keogh) hoped, whatever
might be the opinion of people out of doors, that that
House, in legislating for the improvement of the
social condition in Ireland, would not listen to
the monstrous doctrine that the law's delays should
be permitted to stand in the way of those changes
which the condition of the country required.—(Hear,
hear.) As to the appointment of receivers under the
Court of Chancery, he could say, of his own knowledge,
that their appointment was a matter of traffic between
certain parties interested. The Right Hen. Baronet
(Sir Robert Peel) was kind enough to inform him that
nine of the largest estates in one union in the west of
Ireland were under the management of receivers, and
he (Mr. Keogh) had no doubt that the union in which
those estates were situated was among the bankrupt
unions. Having spoken of the west of Ireland, he would
state that there were several estates, comprising so much
as 279,000 Irish acres (one of them was Mr. Martin's,
containing 196,000 Irish acres), the owners of which
would gladly avail themselves of a measure which would
find them purchasers.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
that fact was a sufficient answer to the objections which
had been urged by the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr.
Turner). Considering the lamentable condition of Ire•
land, and feeling ashamed, as he had often done, at hear-
ing the term mendicant applied to his countrymen when
applications were made to the House for the relief of the
distress which prevailed, be would gladly concur in any
measure which would relieve them from that, their de-
graded position.—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY, after referring to the failure of the
Bills passed in 1847 and 1848, said the thing that was
necessary was to let loose the incumbered estates in Ire-
land, and the question was, whether to effect that the
Bill before them did not go too far. Decrees for sale
were at present easily enough obtained, but the difficulty
was to find purchasers.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Carlow had told them that they could not stop
here—they must go farther.—(Bear, hear.) Hon.
Members who had supported the present measure bad
admitted that there was an abundance of land for sale
under the decrees of Court. L t them, therefore, be
content with that mode of proceeding; give a Parlia-
mentary title, and then see what will be the result, before
they had recourse to the present measure. If they
passed the present measure, they wore bound either to
show a special reason why they should set aside the
course of that tribunal having the authority, or else the
tribunal itself should be altogether swept away.
Mr. MARTIN was of opinion that the time was come
when the landed interest of Ireland should be released
from the incubus which pressed upon them. But he
held that there did not exist any precedent for what was
now proposed to be done. If they passed this measure,
without its being altered in the way suggested by him,
it would not work well. If they meant the Bill to work
properly they must make the three Commissioners a
Court of Record, with the powers of a Court of Record;
otherwise their proceedings would be upset by techni-
calities and legal rules. If the gentlemen of Ireland
would give up the present system of tying up estates to
the prejedice of younger children, they would do much
to place Ireland in the position in which she ought to
be placed—namely, something in the position of this
country.
____

The-SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that this ques-
tion must he considered, not merely in regard to its
legal character, it must also be considered in a social
and moral point of view. It was said that they would
not find purchasers of land in Ireland under this Bill.
He denied this, because the difficulty of finding pur-
chasers now had relation to the want of title. This
Bill would give a title. It was proposed to intro-
duce certain alterations in the Bill. It was intended
to give the Commissioners the power of making parti-
tions of individual interests which were incumbered. It
was also proposed to give the power of exchange, by the
consent of parties, and also to enforce and rescind con-
tracts, where such a course might be considered for the
interests of the parties concerned. A law similar to this
was in existence in Scotland for the last two hundred
years, and had worked well. Ile believed that the
effect of this Bill would be to benefit the mortgagee.
He concurred in the suggestion to get rid of the middle-
man, the thirtie h clause provided for that. What should
be dine fur Ireland is not to be effected by one Bill, but
by a ierirs of Bilis, end that was what the Government
endue% ourcd to accomulif-h by having one measure sub-
sidious to another. The first thing was to have the land
treed from incurnbrances, and an improved system of
registration established. It these measures were carried
into effect they would no longer require coercion Acts;
but the people, receiving the blessings of a paternal Go-
vernment, would support the law, and prosperity be given
to that country.

Mr. NAPIER said the nature of the incumbranco
upon the property in Ireland was very intricate, but be
denied that the Courts in Chancery in that country were
more objectionable than those in England, He thought
it would be injurious to transfer the jurisdiction of the
Court of Chancery to the Court of Common Pleas, as
had been suggested by the Member for Pontefract. It
implied that the Court of Chancery could not be im-'
proved, an opinion he could not admit to be correct.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday next.
DEFECTS IN LEASES BILL
The SOLICITOR GENERAL then moved the se-
ocornthdor(Baidllitg w,
give such a lease as the grantor might lawfully give,
as°ltothgeivieetfheeetsCoinurLt eOuf6eCs hßainliCeryTphoewoebrjetcot