The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY, JUNO 21, 1836.

England it is fortunately . still different. Newspapers bell: ta
expensive, the great body of their supporters are to be found
among people of comparative wealth and intelligence, though
they practically circulate among the poorer classes in abund-
ance sufficient for all purposes of information. The public,
whose taste they are obliged to consult, is, therefore, of a
higher order; and the consequences of this arrangement is
apparent in the %ast superiority of talent they display, and
in the wider range of knowledge and argument which they
bring to bear on all questions of public interest. How
long this may continue it is impossible to predict, but I
trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will weigh well the
consequences before he ventures to take off, or even mate-
rially to diminish, the tax on Newspapers. He may rely upon
it, that bad as the state of the public press may be, it cannot
be improved by any legislative measure. Remove the Stamp
Duty, and the consequences will inevitably be, that there will
be two sets of Newspapers—one fur the rich and educated,
the other for the poor and ignorant. England, like America,
will be inundated by productions, contemptible in point of
talent, but not the less mischievous on that account. One
argument used by the Right Hon. Gentleman for the reduction
of the Newspaper Stamp Duties was, that the papers should
be protected against smugglers. It was his opinion that the
Right Hon. Gentleman would have to make the same struggle
against the smuggler with the Newspaper that cost 5d., that
he would have with a Newspaper that cost 7d. This was, he
considered, made as one of the many already made in the
dangerous course of concession which Ministers were pursuing.
Mr. J. S. BUCKING 11 A M observed that a great portion
of the crime' that prevailed in the country originated in igno.
ranee. The people had not information, and although they
had a vast body of laws, the people were riot informed of
them. Another pregnant evil which resulted from the present
system was, that it
.was in the beer-shop and the • gin-shop
' only that the operative could obtain the perusal of a Newspaper.
With regard to the counter-proposition of the evening he was
not disposed to deny the advantages of having a cleanly popu-
lation, but he thought it much more important that they
should be instructed, for they would then soon find out the
value of cleanliness themselves. As long as the present
heavy tax was imposed upon Newspapers, an enormous circu-
lation was required before the publishers were repaid, and the
consequence was, that they had to pander to all sorts of tastes
ia order to find sufficient readers; there was foreign news for
one class, scandal for another, abuse for the third.--( Hear, and
Oh 1) The poorer classes of persons were perfectly astonished
to see how the rich could tolerate' the abuse and private
scandal which loaded the periodical pages of the present day.
—(Oh, oh 1) With respect to the present proposal for the re-
duction of the Newspaper stamp duty, he must be permitted
to say, that for his own part he should rather prefer a graduated
.nd valorem duty, extending as low as a farthing on a penny
paper, which of course should be proportionably smaller and
lighter than one published at a shilling, and rated accord-
ingly.

Mr. HANDLEY did not consider the reduction of the
duty on Soap would in itself•be a boon to the farmer; and
added, that •the Hon. Member for Northampton, in taking
this part of his (Mr. Handley's) motion on a former occasion,
had taken the husk and left the kernel of it.

Mr. 'ROEBUCK rose, amidst loud cries of " Divide,"
".Divide," " Withdraw." The present question, said the
Hon. and Learned Member, Was not a question of revenue,
but a question of party politics.—(Oh 1 oh ! front the Oppo-
sition.) It was a part of the polities of the party on the
other side of the House to keep up that despotic rule, the fruits
of which they (the Opposition) had so long enjoyed. The
party on his (the Ministerial) side of the House were anxious
to free the people of this country from the shackles which
their ignorance had so long bound upon them. Gen-
tlemen on the opposite side of the House did not care one far-
thing whether the revenue was diminished a few thousands or
not; they only pretended to be the farmers' friend on this oc-
casion, in order to keep up their influence over a cert&n class
of the people, and at the same time to perpetuate the ignorance
which had hitherto hung about them. An Hon. Member on
the opposite side of the House had said there was no need to
carry pernicious knowledge into the cottage. He (Mr. Roe-
buck) contended that knowledge could not be pernicious; lie
did not care what opinions might be circulated if facts were also.
circulated.—( Hear, hear.) " We see through these men well,"
added the Hon. and Learned Member.—(" Oh, oh I" and a
laugh.) What was it pretended that the reduction of the Duty
on Soap would do for the agriculturist? why simply by caus-
ing an increased demand for tallow, and consequently some in-
crease in the demand for agricultural produce. But whom
would this benefit, small as it was, go to ?—not the agricul-
tural labourer—not the farmer—but to the landowner if
to anybody. In opposing the reduction of the Newspaper
tax, Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side had racked their
brains for arguments; but why need they go to America,
what had America to do with the case ?—( Hear, hear, from the
Opposition.) He held, and he was prepared to show it by
a comparison of the stamped Newspapers with the unstamped,
that the litter were the superior both in respect of intelligence
and of morality.—(lronical cheers from the Opposition.) Ay,
superior—and he challenged Hon. Gentlemen who cheered to
point out a single unstamped Newspaper which contained a
tenth of the scurrility, the obscenity, and the downright im-
morality which was to be fcund in the stamped Newspapers of
'the day.—( Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Opposition.) Had
any Hon. Member dared to bring down in his hand a copy of
an unstamped Newspaper to support their arguments as to the
pernicious nature of its contents ?—( Hear, hear.) No one
had done so. On the other hand, he (Mr. Roebuck) could
refer them to an article in the Times, where it was stated that
a certain individual, whom it was pleased to stile " the big
beggarman," was going to be exhibited as a show.—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) He should like to know whether the
lion. Gentlemen who cheered this did so to show their accor-
dance in the sentiment which pervaded this article. And yet
apiusiog euUatry with tlie pc,bieioun
effusions of the Press. --What, deluge the country with John
Bulls and Ages, and other papers of the kind, taken ex-
clusively by the higher and richer classes.—( Oh, oh, from
the Opposition.) Honourable Gentlemen might cry " Oh,
.oh," as their only reply to his assertion—" Oh, oh," was
very easily said,,,but he repeated it, and he challenged a
denial of his assertion, that the higher classes delighted
in printed obscenity—( Cries of " Oh, oh")—delighted
also in scandal and personal abuse., They would not find these
in the papers circulated in the-pot-house; there was no filth)
obscenity, no disgusting personal scandal in these ; it was the
rich man's paper, in the parsons' paper—( Oh, oh-)—in the
Aye and the John Bull, and these were the papers which
pandered to the morbid appetites of the wealthier classes.
They paid their sevenpence for it, and they wished to have a
monopoly of it, and he was quite willing to allow them; and
sure lie was that if the Stamp Duty were taken off News-
papers to-morrow, there would be no increase in the obscenity
circulated by means of the Press. On the contrary, he main-
tained that the voice of the great body of the people would
bear down the the obscenity which already existed in it, and
that the aristocracy would at last be ashamed to foster and en-
courage it.—( Hear, hear, and Oh, oh.)
Mr. KE A RSLE Y begged to assure the lion. and Learned
Member for Bath that he was riot one of these who cried out
" Oh" during the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member.
He (Mr. Kearsley) had really never noted anything that had
fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member ; he had never
condescended to do so.—( A laugh.) He would, however,
ask the Noble Lord the Herne Secretary, and the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with what pleasure they had
just listened to the disgusting speech of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath.--( Loud cries of " Order," ." Chair, chair.")
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bernal) was quite sure the Hon,
Member could not be aware of the word which had just fallen
from hitn._( A voice from the Ministerial side of the House,
" Make an apolOgy.")

Mr. KEAItSCEV—Sir, I am quite aware that I might
have used language stronger than the &rcam.tances required.
I admit that the language was strong; but I must say that a
mere disgusting speech I never heard.--( Loud cries of
order, order !)

The CHAIRMAN—I am really very sorry to call the Ho-
nourable MeMber's attention again to the words which he
made use of; but I must beg to repeat it, and in doing so I
am in the hands of the Committee, to be corrected, if lam
wrong, that the language which fell from the Honourable
Member, was such as was never permitted to be used in this
House.—(Cheering.)
Mr. KEARSLEY-1 am very sorry that the Hon. Mem.
ber for Bath, having charged me with what is not true, I can
not characterise his speech by other terms.—(Loud cries of
order, order ! chair, chair. )

Mr. ROEBUCK then rose, and as well as we could hear,
said—l trust the House nil! permit the debate to proceed, and
make allowances for what must be looked upon as an infirmity
of the Hon. Member opposite.—( Cries of Hear, hear, and
Order, Chair.)

Mr. METHUEN arose amid loud cries of " Order," arid
" Chair." I think, said the Hon. Member, it is due not only
to this House but to the country, that the Chairman should
declare whether the language of the Hon. Gent!emu oppo-
site (Mr. Kearsley) is such as should be addressed to this
House, or'such as it is becoming in us to hear without repro-
hension.—(Cries of " Chair," and" Oh, oh.") Fecrne here
to do my duty to my constituents, and not for the purpose of
listening to language which is unbecoming the dignity of this
Houso.—( Cries of " Chair," and 'I Oh, oh.")
Mr, BERNAL/ rose, and after saying a few words to those
near him, which were not audible in the Gallery, resumed his
goat, _

Mr. KEA RSLE Y then rose, and assuming an extremely
grave and earnest air, and placing his glass to his eye with one
hand, and putting his hat under his left arm, looked very sted-
fostly across the House at Mr. Methuen, and exclaimed—Sir,
when the Hon. Member for North Wiltshire thinks proper so
precipitately to interrupt me, I am tempted to exclaitO—
" Paul, Paul, why persecutest thou me."--[Here the whole
House WOl convulsed with laughter, which continued for seve-
ral minutes ; and which was much increased when the Hon.
Member left his scat on the second row of the Opposition
benches, and walked down quietly to the floor of the House,
wllVre; after bowing twice in a style, ;he solemnity of which
made it irresistibly ludicrous, he made two efforts to retire,
but being stopped at the bar, came back to his place amidst
renewed shouts of laughter, and cries of " Chair and order."'
The Cli4iPtAN and Dr, BALDWIN rose together. The
enantsiaN "ave way, and
Dr. BALDWIN proceeded to address the House in repre-
hension, as we understood, of the disrespectful conduct of the
Hon, ,Member for Wigan, but scarcely an obse,•tation which
fell ihni the lige? Alemher could be heard is galltn7, from
the loud. cries of 't Order anti
The CHAIRMAN and Mr. WALTER then rose. There were
loud cries for Mr. WALTER, and the CliaiamAN sat clown.
wALM4 felt it his duty to address the House on a
subject upon which-he could give some practical information.
Ir. 11U\I E—l rise to order, Sir,-4 Loud cri._.s of " Go
on, go an," addressed to Mr. Walter.) I wish to ask you,
Cililirman, whether the proceedings of thii House arc
to lie conducted in the disorderly manlier in which they. have
been this evening? Again. sir, as our Chalinian, you have

declared (and w.e are prepared to support you in the opinion)
1 that the words used by the Hon. Member for Wigan are
tutbr_seoming of him in his present situation.—( Loud cries
of " Hear.") The only course left you, then, Sir, as
Chairman, is, I apprehend, to call upon the Hon. Member to
retract his words ;_ and in easa • of his refusing to do so, I
-think that you arc called upon to put in force the authority
vested in you as Chairman. —( Hear.) I think a further apology
is due from the Hon. Member for his conduct as it regards tto
House ; for since I have had a seat in Parliament, I have
never seen so lion. Member leave his place, and behave in the
manner which the Hon Member has this night.—( Loud cries
of hear, hear.) Sir, it is the duty of the Chairman, for the
:Ake of preserving the dignity of our proceedings, to call upon
the lion. Member to make that apology which in my opinion
he is bound to give.
The C HAIRMAN—In answer to the appeal which has
been made to me, I beg to observe that the Chairman of a
Committee has, when called upon, bat one course to pursue
with reference to such a question as the present, and that is
when an lion. Men.ber rmsconducts or misbehaves himself, the
Chairman is imperatively bound by his duty, if the lion. Mem-
ber refuses to offer any explanation of apology for his con-
duct, to report the aitatter to the Speaker for the exercise of
his superior authority.—( Hear, !tear.) I hope I shall never
he found wanting in the performance of that duty whenever
I see the necessity of applying for the superior jurisdiction of
the Speaker.—( Hear, hear.) -
;Mr. 11. BUL WE R—l think, Sir, under the circumstances
~f the present ease.you are called-upon to exert that authority
wide') you possess of reporting these proceedings to the Speaker.
Mr. HUM E—l move; Sir, that you report progress, aLd
ask lease to sit again.
The C lIA IR MAN—As the lion. Member for Middlcs,2x
has moved that I should report progress, and as lie has made
as the grounC of his motion a complaint against an Her,.
Meni!:er, perhaps he will be good enough to state apecikally
what it is.—( Hear, hear.)

Mr. II U have no hesitation in saying that my com-
plaint refers to the observations which the lion. Member made
U4O with respect to, my lion. Friend the Member for Bath.
and which you yourself strongly reprobated. I did nut hear
what the Hon. Member said before he uttered the objection-
able expression to which I refer; but. I did hear him make use
of the phrase " disgusting speeeli, as applied to the addresS
of my Hon Friend.—(Hear, hear.),' Every Hon. Member
near use can, I believe, say that he also heard it, and will sup-
port me, I am sure, in the assertion, that the conduct of the
lion. Member, in leaving his scat and coming to the floor of
the House, and in fact behaving himself in a manner in which
I have never yet seen any Hon. Member behave in this House
calls for some apology.—( Cheers. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—The
occurrence which has taken place place stands thus : an ob-
servation has been made by the Hon. Member. for Wigan,
and it is to him that I wish particularly to address myself, in
reply to the speech delivered by the Hon. Member for. Bath,
which was such as to call down upon him, in my mind justly,
(and. I believe in the opinion of the majority justly also) your
censure, Sir, and your statement that his observations was un-
parliarr.entary and unbecoming.—( Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly,
then, the only course left you, is to bring it ttndor the consi-
deration of the Speaker; that is, if you be driven to such an
alternative.—( Hear, hoar, hoar.) But Ido hope that the ex-
eitement into which the lion. Member may have been betrayed
by the previous course of the debate, will induce him to apolo-
gise to the Committee for any expressions which he might
have used, and for the inadvertent and irregular proceedings
into which he may have been led.—( Hear, hear.) Our course
is a clear one ; but I appeal to the Hon. Member whether he
will hopose on the House the necessity of adopting it.
Mr. KEARSLE Y said—lf the expression which I used
is not agreeable to the taste of the Committee, I beg leave to
.withdraw it.—( Hear, hear, from all sides.) But, I presume,
Sir,. I have a right to say, that I heard-that speech with dis-
gust. —Loud cries of " Oh, oh.")
The CHAIRMAN—ReaIIy I must say that the repeti-
tion of these terms is a further trespass on • the decorum
which should be observed in the proceedings of this House.
Mr. KE A IZSL EY—Sir, all I can say is, that as I can't
swim in the same water with the Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
they may construe the expression as they please.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh," and some faint cries of " Hear, hear.")
Aft,..r a pause,.
Lori E BRINGTCN rose and said—The apology which
the Hon. Member has given is not one such as I conceive is
due to the House, after the manner in which the decorum of
its proceedings has been infringed upon.—( Cheers.) I must,
therefore, Sir, unless the Hon. Gentleman thinks proper to
make a more satisfactory apology to the Committee, beg leave
to move that you report progress, and report this matter to the
Speaker.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—As the Noble Lord the Member
for North Devonshire has moved that the Chairman report
progress, and that the expressions used by the Hon. Member
be reported to the House, I wish to state what was the man-
ner in which I conceive the Hon. Member received the opi-
nion expressed by the Chairman. I understood him to. have
said that he withdrew entirely the expression complained of.
—( Hear, hear.) I must say, however, likewise that I don't
think it was mentioned by the Chairman that the conduct of
the Hon. Member, after what he said to the Hon. Member
for North Wiltshire, was disrespectful to the House. But the
Hon. Member so immediately withdrew the expression which
has ben complained of, that I should suppose he will not
hesitate to express his regret if his conduct should be consi-
dered disrespectful to the House. •

Mr. KE A RSLE Y—l am extremely sorry if I have done
anything unpleasant to the Committee—( Hear, from all sides.)
—and I beg leave to withdraw the expression which I made.
—( Hear, hear.) But then, when the Hon. Member for North
Wiltshire cries out at my mode of walking over the floor—
( Th. ,fsra,lnd-er of the sentence wets boat in the. laughter, erica
of " order," and confusion which here took place.)
Sir A: L. HAY attempted to address the Committee, but
nut a single expression which he addressed to the House
could be heard by the reporters. -

Mr. EA RSLE Y afrain rose and said—l beg to assure the
House again, that I hadr' not the least possible intention of
giving offence by my conduct on this occasion,—..(Loud cries
of " Hcar," from all sides.)

Mr. WALTER certainly thought that a better selection
might be made •of the taxes which called for remission than
those which his Majesty's Ministers had chosen. If he had
any doubt upon this point it would have been removed by the
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who did not defend his reduction of the Stamp
Duty on Newspapers on the ground of expediency, but ad-
mitted that one, at least, of the reasons which induced him to
repeal the tax was his inability to collect it. With regard to
the size of papers which the Right Hon, Gentleman fixed for
the future, he thought such a proposal an unjust interference
e.ith the rights of those who had vested their capital in this
description of property on -the understanding that they should
be allowed to exercise their ingenuity as to the best means by
which it might be made to yield the best return.

The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—
Ayes
Noes
Majority — —33
The several resolutions were then agreed to, and the Holm)
resumed.

EXCISE LICENSES (IRELAND.)
. On the motion of Lord moan:TN, the Excise Licenses
Ireland) Bill was road a third time.

Mr. SHAW moved an additional clause, by way of rider
the Bill, to the effect that grocers should be prohibited
from selling spirits by retail on their premises, but should be
allowed to sell more than two quarts of spirits at the time for
consumption outside their premises.
The clause was agreed to.
Mr. SIIA NV moved another clause, to the effect
of spirits by retailers on the Sabbath, and 0" that all sale
'last and,thanks-
giving days, should be prohibited. Ile rat it his duty to press
the clause, notwithstariding tho arguluent which had taken
place in the Committee on a lormx-i. ne„si„.
Lord MORPETH oppcisiod the clause. He felt bound to
adhere to the agreemillit Committee. It was out of the
power of the Iloilao to prevent the sale of spirits on the Sub.
bath, awl, therefore, it had only to make a virtue of necessity.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it t
-----61
The Bill was then passed.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know of the Noble Lord opposite
what Impiiness was likely to come on to-morrow (this day.)
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to- say that after the
motion of the Hon. Member for Middlesex on county rates
should be disposed of, the Registration of Voters ( Ireland)
Bill woull be brought on, if Hon. Members who had notices
on the paper consented to forego their motions.
Sir R. PEEL suggested that, to make everything sure, it
would be better that those Hon. Members who meant to with-
draw their notices of motion should state the fact to the
House.

PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND.)
Tho Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and
passed.

IRISH TITHES. •
Sir R. PEEL said that as the Bill for the settlement of
tithes in Ireland stood, along with other orders, on the paper
for Friday next, it was very ta.portant to the country that the
Noble Lord opposite should state what his Majesty's Govern-
ment meant to do in regard to bringing it on that evening.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that on next Friday the English
,Tithe Bill would certainly be brought forward; but he could
lic't undertake to say that the Irish Tithes Bill would be brought
forward on the same day. On the succeeding Friday, how-
ever, it should be brought forward.
Sir R. PEEL wished to know whether the Noble Lord
meant Friday, the 3d July ? It had hero fixed for last Friday,
was then postponed to next Friday, and now was about to be
deferred a week longer.
Lord J. RUSSELL answered in the affirmative.
PUBLIC CARRIAGES (METROPOLIS.)
'Oa the motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, the House re-
solved itself into Committee on the Public Carriages (Metro-
polis) Bill, which went through Committee, and the Chair-
man reported progress.
The CI-lapels of Ease (Ireland) Bill passed through Com-
mittee, and was reported to the House. .
The Highway Woes Hill was read a third time.
It°lZo ADVOCATE proposed the second reading,
pro fbnivt, of the Burghs of Barony (Scotland Bill) ; but,
Oa the suggestion of Sir G. CLERK, it was postponed
till Friday,

Mr. F, MAULF, got leave to bring in a Bill to place the
horse patrol (at present und,er tho management of the chief
magi,tratc of Buw-street) under tho management of the Com-
missioners of the Metropolitan Police.
The other Orders-of the Day 'twee lien disposed of, and,
Od the motion of Mr. - BROTH E IZTON, the House ad-
jo.irued at a Quarter past Twelve,

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 20,

The House was occupied in hearing witnesses upon the
Stafford Borough Disfranchisement Bill, from three to five
oVOck.

MANCHESTER AND LEEDS RAILWAY.

On the motion of Lord KENYON, the Manchester and
Leeds Railway Bill was read a third time, aid lased.
The Earl of RODEN presented a petition from certain
Protestant Dissenters, praying for the abolition of Church
rates.
LOid STU ADB ROK E presented a petition from a paro.
alai union, complaining of the unequal manner in which the
rates were levied,