The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-20 00:00:00

THE 'RUN%

own side or the House, told him his motion was very
tLstight—he perfectly agreed in it, but he could not go a•to
Same lobby as the Hon. Member for the West Riding.
(Laughter.) Another Hon. Gentleman on the other
, a good Radical reformer, said the motion was quite
light—he agreed in every word of it—but when be saw
it meet with the support of the Conservative party it
was impossible for him to vote for it. Now, he would
ask, was it right to play with the great interests of
the country in such a manner ?—(Hear, hear.) Inde-
pendent Members had now more power, because it had
ever been found that a small compact body could always
beat in detail a much larger one. They all knew what
different speeches they would hear from Honourable
jGentlemen on the other side of the House on that sub-
bect were the Conservative party seated on the Treasury
enches.—(Hear, hear.) Their eloquent tongues were
sent now—they keep the topic for a time to be used
with Power upon simple people when the Whigs may
use it as a stepping-stone into power. There was no
greater difference of opinion amongst the advocates of
retrenchment than there existed among any other body
nfmen ; they might very well discuss the best mode of
doing a thing, but amidst their differences an ingenious
play off one against
another,gentleman
was,
might very well
and,
ease- But the short and the long of the
story lva
that that [louse had to say, " You shall
not have so much money." No doubt thy'
ilnuse would not agree to rest upon assertion on such a
li
question ; therefore he was prepared with authority. e
anxiously desired, on that occasion, to
avoid either inflammatory or exaggerated language,
because he knew full well there existed a greater expecta-
tion of relief to be derived from retrenchment amongst
Othvesr, the
public than there was any foundation for. More-
public thought that the whole amount of taxa-
tion levied upon the country was as completely wasted
from the resources of the country as if such an amount
was thrown into the sea. But that was not the fact.
whatever the amount of taxation, a great portion of it
did return into the country again. There existed no
necessity for exaggeration upon the subject. All they
had to show was that the amount of taxation was in
seas,e and that the mode of levying it was unjust. He
o mean to apply his observations to the present
Administration more than to any other, but to show the
inequality of taxation. Take, for example, the duty on
bhighest priced printed cottons—it was 10 per cent.;
on the very commonest kind, which was worn by the
very poorest class, it was 50 per cent. He would be
answered, that that duty was repealed l—yes, but they
had not repealed the principle on which the tax was
laid. Again, the duty on leather was calculated by
ieig...(ht. Now, every one knew that a countryman's
!hoes weighed more than 100 pairs of those worn by a
iav(iy...
flear, hear.) On wine the duty was 100 per
cent. On the beer of the people it was 175 per
cent. Stamps and probate he would not waste the
time of the House by touching on. But it was the
fact that the whole establishments of the country, of
every kind and sort, were pitched at
in on
at toochigfirmhaartsioten.
The first evidence he would adduce
of his views was from the jouynalwicuhawaesrly Review,
the organ
of the late Administration—viz., the Quarterly
which said:—" If we are to keep our place (as a nation),
it is indispensably necessary that every incumbrance
should be removed, as well by individuals as by the Go-
vernment. Every branch of the administration must be
purified—every department must submit to examination
and improvement—wealthy as the country is—even the
most ancient of our institutions ought and could no
longer support the burden of places or proceedings that
can possibly be dispensed with. No branch of those in-
stitutions ought to be touched that can be left alone; still
there is an imperative necessity to submit many of them
to alteration and reduction." He believed that to be
exactly the state of the case, and unless that House, by
some strong resolution, compelled, if necessary, or
strengthened the hands of the Government, if they were
willing to make those changes which were necessary—
matters must become worse. He was further strength-
ened in recommending the alterations and the reductions
generally by a passage in a dispatch which had lately
been presented to the Hou;e—a dispatch from Lord Elgin
to the Secretary for the Colonies—in which he recom-
mended a deduction upon all salaries above 100/., on ac-
count of the revenue being below the expenditure and
the Population in a state of distress. That he held to
of n.j.usds;iofiuenattriyonyvoafsthe step he recommended. The case
thatttit id
_Colonnot assent to the proposition
quite in an analoous state. Lord
when made in
Y, but he did in another; for he found Lord
..inreY' declaring that there should be a complete revision
1,. the financial condition of Jamaica. In Guiana, when
:44140e_eur,esewas a threat of a stoppage of the supplies, a re-
tic was made on the subject by a Committee of the
. and, if he remembered rightly, that report had
!).e. n drawn up by Sir Robert Peel.—(Hear.) The next
that /Ig, then, that he desired was an alteration in the mode
of taxation—thatl was by relieving the poor, and making
glaaxradoedonasproefss more severely on the rich. To that the
neXt thing that he had at heart, and that which he re-
d f • most consequence, was to take some mea-
sures or diminishing the burden of the national debt.
' was, he said, the great point, and, among other
Measures
• was this, gentlemen talked of the recovery of
agriculture.etresesoutitisoftatnheofuti was quite true that they could raise five
nantdt_ha(tHtheesyon_ow did of consumable arti-
there could be no doubt at
avthlalaiontfeththat; but, at the same time, no one could doubt
then e ' xpenditure of capital would be greater than the
terest
thor the Produce when it was raised. 'I he only way
toe3' could give relies was to lower the rate of
in productive
such an extent that capital might be employed
that
productive industry, where it was now employed in
now
which was non-productive.—(Hear.) H e would
si-'1127 conclude with reading a passage from Burke, to
destw the necessity of supporting a Government when it
ilred to be enabled to carry such a resolution as ha
lnur proposed into effect. Instead, then, of' attacking
i er Majestys Ministers, he wished to encourage them
4 sueporting the resolution which he now did, and the
enforcement of which he believed to be necessary for this
country.
n,The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
Th."at the Hon. Gentleman, in briuging forward this
—otion, did not desire it to be understood as a censure
upon the conduct of her Majesty's Government. The
Government during the last two years, had proved its
ire
de '
cure to enforce economy, by carrying into effect re-
ductions as far as it was possible to effect them with a
due regard to the efficiency of the public service, and
further than that he was sure the Hon. Gentleman him-
self would not desire to carry them.—(Hear.) The
."nn• Gentleman had spoken of his desire to lower the
rate of duties imposed upon articles of consumption by
the poorer classes; he had complained that, comparing
the price of these articles with the duties, it was higher
than the duty upon articles of a higher price. The sub-
ject was one that had been much discussed, whether it
was better to have an ad valorem duty or a fixed and
ratio duty. The tendency of all legislation was to get
rid of an ad valorem duty, and to do this as tendirg to
promote the introduction into consumption of articles
that were used even by the poorer classes. In several
instances where Committees had baen appointed to in-
quire into the subject of ad valorem duties, they had
uniformly recommended a low rate and fir.Fd duty as that
which was the most beneficial to the trade and com-
merce of this country.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman had then said that it would be desirable to
take taxation off the poor and impose it upon the rich ;
but the Hon. Gentleman did not tell them of the process
or the mode of doing that. This, however, he said—
that the whole tendency "of their legislation for the last
few' years bad been in that direction. Hardly ever was
there a period in which so large an amount of taxation
had been taken off the great body of the people, and its
amount made up by taxes upon income and upon pro-
rrtY, than between the years 1842 and 1849. The re-
Uction of taxation in that time upon Lie raw materials
°f manufactures and upon articles of consumption by the
r o t body of the people, amounted to no less than
r; °°,oool. Such was the amount of taxes reduced or
~.o!Pealed; and the deficiency thus created was made up
,taxes imposed upon the richer classes of the commu-
nity, That was the course the Hon. Gentleman recom-
mended The articles used by the poor were those on
petoi h the taxes had been reduced or repealed, and the
: a s made up by taxes upon the 400,000 or 500,000
unless thellans
described ho paid the income tax, and who might be
dthe richer classes of the community. Now,
they were
nen. Gentleerr!le f
oubled the income-tax, he did not see how
Gentlem ide......ur(ther in the course proposed by the
Hear, hear.) But then the Hon.
Gentlemenonld9lnaot
diminish they nalional debt. indispensable to pay off or
Birutsthocokw
hsv:sniottthoinbge. doTnhe?e
but this titsewllasthe
nun. Gentlettlan might be a better
Is financier than he was
he must ye.that he himself' had never yet been
thing without theme
able to discove tmoneym od et
to pay
awhich r
it.
—(Laughter.)
du g buyhter . a) n yI f
the public were to put money into his pockets to buy up
that
StOck, it would be impossible to do so without laying on
;the:ll:ft
oisn,. to create a sinking fund; and to do
Gentleman would be to resort to
%n exploded doctrine. The Hon. Gentleman said that
producing
the
es greater than it was
times greater
power of this country might be made five
able capital. Re;
consider
(tbhuet
ct,ohandeoelsleor wouldethe
Erexqcuhiree.
quer) did look forward to a judicious expenditure of Ga-
onPa the land, so as to render it more capable of
Meeting the demands of consumers; but to do that, the
Eon. Gentleman said there must be a lowering of the
rate of interest. The rate of interest, they all knew, had
been low enough in this countr it had been y and the consequence of
most disastrous speculations. He had heard
numerous complaints in the City that money might be
of
had f
land aor li per cent, and even now, looking at the Bank
be no Enndher quarters, there seemed to him to
lack of ca ital
to a lowering ofpthe, and the tendency even now was
!Flotations of the Share ordinary
rate of interest. The
in railroads were risin ' Market. showed that the shares
tendency to a lower gralte price, and that there was a
that
interest.—(Hear, hear.)
But then it might be sate
v;tethe Government ought
to reduce its expenditure.
so. An Hon. Friend behind hi 11, they had been doing
so enough. Now 'he said than:, said they had not done
ago, the Government was not able tt
a year and a half
wands made upon it from the manufeacmeet all the de-
protect the lives and properties of those towns to
those manufacturing towns.—(Hear, heare)dwelling in
had made in the present year a reduction i Now
they
to the number of 10,000 men, and a naa.ofet the army
fßouse had decided that the reduction had) been of that
ar enough. There had been a reduction of 3,o2rried
in the navy, and the opinion of the House was, men
these. two reductions had been carried sufficiently thatat
Within the two years the amount of reduction ?in thre.
estimates was 2,360,0001., and when such was the case,
charge did not think that they were open fairly to the
of being indisposed to make a reduction in the.
expenditure of the country. On this point too a ma-
jmoreity
.of the House had concurred with the Govern-
th eetreliell declaring that it would not bP advisable that
had been.notions should be carried farther than they
ley) had
One HonourableGentleman (Mr. H
en-
knew that proposed a reduction of salaries • and he
a large min lofthat 'voted
4 general re,,__~ ori y
%mutton of salaries, lie knew also that no

inconsiderable portion of the minerity had so voted in
order that if the motion were carried, they might graft
oven it sonic amendment of their own. The fact was,
that the salaries of those in public offices, not taking into
account the advantages they bad previously enjoyed, and
of which they were now deprived, were lower now than
before the war took place. Then they had diminished
and consolidated several offices. In the Pay Office the
reduction amounted to not less than 16,000/. There was
a reduction of 35 persons. There was a reduction of 47
per cent. in the whole amount of the salaries, and a re-
duction of 33 per cent. as to the persons employed. A
similar inquiry had been carried on iu.the Home-office,
and there the reduction amounted to 3,774/. a year.
Gentlemen talked of the enormous numbers employed in
the Government. The whole establishment of the Home-
office was 18, of the Treasury 24, exclusive of the Par-
liamentary officers. Now, the whole number employed in
all departments connected with the Treasury was 130 (as
we understood). and in the French Treasury the number
of clerks was not less than 500. Comparing themselves
with other countries, their neighbours, he believed
there were one-tourth less employed in England. The
reduction in the Mint was 10,000/, in the Ordnance-
office 4,000/. As to patronage, he had himself an office
in his gift of 6001. a year, and he abolished it. For
Chelsea Hospital the assistant-secretaryship had been
put an end to, and a saving effected of 1,7001. a year.
In the Stationary-office there was a saving of 31,000/. in
the printing, and ultimately of 50,000/. The attention
of the Government was unremittingly directed to the
same subject. And now he must remark that a diffi.
cults was caused by that House itself. Returns were
ceded for, and then complaints were made of a delay in
those returns, when it was impossible speedily to comply
with such orders with reduced establishments. They
were at one time told they were looking for patronage,
and then they were pressed to appoint Commissioners.
As Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must say that the
greater part of his official life had been passed in re-
sisting the pressure of that House for additional expen-
diture. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that upon
this point the Government required not to be urged;
that they were determined to make every reduction that
was consistent with the interests of the country. As the
resolution expressed or implied a censure upon the pre-
sent and the past Governments, he could not so far agree
with it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME was, he said, almost ashamed to address
the House, as he had to observe upon statements that
had been four times made in that House and four times
contradicted. As to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Druat-
mond), he had scarcely done justice to his own motion.
Upon this subject of economy the House of Commons
was to blame far more than Ministers. Last year, when
the renewal of the income-tax was proposed, and an in-
crease was proposed, the House of Commons expressed
its opinion so plainly against the increase that the
Noble Lord immediately tried back"—the proposal was
revoked without a division being come to. He admitted
that the present as well as the past Government had
made great and economical changes.—(llear, hear.) He
did not deny the benefits arising front the financial re-
forms which had been already effected, but they did not
go far enough. The great cost of the army and navy
must be revised before anything like satisfactory eco-
nomy could be established in the miiitary and naval
expenditure of the country. In the civil branches of
those departments retiring allowances were given
to men who, though in perfect health, were super-
annuated after a certain period of service. The
superannuation allowances, also, made to admirals,
were most extravagant. The Right Hon. Baronet had
said that the country ought to be satisfied with the
economical changes that had been already effected; hut
he (Mr. Hume) denied that they had any right to be so
satisfied. The expenditure of the country had been
raised from an average of 52,000,0001. sterling to that of
57,000,0001. wittin the last four years. Was
.that
cause of satisfaction? He contended that in order to
effect satisfactory financial reforms they must reduce
the cost of the army and navy; they must also make the
colonies support themselves, and finally they must re-
model their whole system of taxation. He should cor-
dially support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.

Mr. EWART thought that these efforts to reduce
taxation should proceed in the direction of those taxes
which pressed on the industry and commerce of the
country, particulary the Excise duties, which were the
most oppres,sive that were ever imposed on any coun.ry.
Mr. M. GIBSON had on a former occasion, when the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) had brought for-
ward a motion relating to financial reform, moved the
previous question, because the motion being only for a
Committee of the House, and the objects which the Hon.
Gentleman had shadowed forth in his speech on that
occasion, as those which he would seek to attain in
Committee, being such as he (Air. Gibson) could not
agree with, he could not consent to go into Committee
upon them. On the present occasion, however, as the
Hon. Gentleman sought in his motion to pledge the Hou,•e
generally to a resolution that there existed a large mar-
gin in the public expenditure of the country which might
be cut down without injury to the effective government
of the country, he at once acceded to the proposition,
because it concurred with his own convictions. It was a
proposition which might be regarded as instructional to
the Government, encouraging them to go on in the course
of retrenchment they had entered upon, and could not
be considered in the light of a vote of censure upon
them, or indeed upon any Government, but rather upon
the system which had hitherto been allowed to exist in
the country. It would strengthen the hands of the
Noble Lord when urged in the recess by military
and naval men to increase expenditure in those
departments, if he could point to a resolution on the
journals of the House of Commons recommending re-
trenchment. He (Mr. M. Gibson) was in a difficulty
when he defended the Government, for nothing would
persuade men that there was economy until there was a
reduction in taxation. The Hon. Member for Montrose
alluded to the civil list—a very delicate question, a large
proportion of it being out of the control of the Crown,
and apportioned by Parliament for the payment of public
officers. All the Hon. Member for Nlontroie required,
however, was that those receiving money from the civil
list should prove their services; he would not pay use-
less officers, and he would relieve the civil list of such
persons. No man could conscientiously say that there
existed no needless officers, no useless places, no extra-
vagant salaries. There was the Lurd-Lieutenancy of
Ireland, which cost 150 000/. a year. The spirit of the
times was adverse to that needless pageant, and the in-
tercourse between the countries was so ready, that the
government of Ireland could be readily carried on from
London. Then there was the slarestrade squadron, a
most unnecessary expense. All these facts justified a
vote in favour of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, and the
House would stultify itself if it negatived a proposition
for economy, come from whence it might. The military
expenses of the country had inerea, ed as the chances of
expendedofthe nationalin
war had diminished. Five or six hundred millions had
beenfl'r
therefore war—nearly
ut hp e
whole -
deht. preparationsu
e
should
port the motion.
Colonel THOMPSON said, that if he might be per-
mitted to state the points upon which he
agreed with
and differed from, the Hon. Gentleman, with a view to
giving his vote in support of the Hon. Gentleman's mo-
tion, he would say that the Hon. Gentleman had one
foot of iron upon which he might stand in defiance of
all arguments against his motion, and that was, that
there was not a fair partition of' taxation on the working
classes. Now, if they looked to the taxation upon such
an article as tobacco, they would find that by the manner
in which that taxation was made the working man paid
eleven times as much as the rich consumer of that arti-
cle. And when he heard the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer say there was a sort of balance in the case of the
income tax, he could not agree to it until he found that
the rich man paid something like eleven times as much
as the poor man. As to the policy of paying off the na-
tional debt, he thought they must some • day have a
friendly passage of aims. He could not understand how
it was to be paid off except at the market value, and he
feared that if it were paid off we should be told to-mor-
row, " Oh, you are a happy nation—you have no debt;"
and the first thing we should do would be to get into
debt again.—(A laugh.) He would al,o take that op-
portunity of saying that Hon. Gentlemen ought not to
be too hasty in forming an opinion in consequence of
what was considered as the report of the African Com-
mittee. In the main, that report was the opinion of the
Chairman ; for generally there was an equal division
of the Committee, and he then gave his casting vote
He (Colonel Thompson) hoped, therefore, that the re-
port would go forth to the world as the opinion of the
Chairman.

Lord R. GROSVENOR thought one thing was evi-
dent—that there was a great difference of opinion as to
the remedy by which the evil complained of was to be
met. To the resolution he thought there was no sub-
stantive objection, but the arguments in support of it
ought to be borne in mind, or it might give a notion to
the public out of doors that the present Government
and others before them had been exceedingly remiss in
endeavouring io reduce taxation—a charge which he
thought could not be fairly made. The House would
not fail to observe that the Hon. Member for West
Surrey and his Right Hon. Friend agreed upon this
subject. His Right Hon. Friend made no objection to a
res,lution pledging the Government or the country to a
reduction of expenditure, and he himself thought a
resolution might be prepared which would be unani-
mously agreed to by that House. He would therefore
suggest that that resolution should run thus :—" That
whereas no greater amount of taxation ought to be
levied upon the people than is required for the good and
efficient government of the United Kingdom; and
whereas it is expedient that inquiry should take place
whether there may not be some needless places, some
salaries too large, and some works that may be unne-
cessary—it is the opinion of this House that a vigilant
superintendence ought to be exercised over the expen-
diture, so that every reduction may be made that
will not be of detriment to the public service." If the
Hon. Gentleman would not consent to adopt that altera-
tion he (Lord R. Grosvenor) would move it as an amend.
ment to the Hon. Gentleman's motion.

Mr. DRUMMOND was understood to decline adopt-
ing the alteration proposed by the Noble Lord, and it
was then put from the chair as an amendment.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, surely the House was not going
to adopt such a resolution as was proposed by the Noble
Lord, for it was the identical proposition that that House
ought to do its duty—that whereas there were many
needless places and so on, therefore the House ought to
be vigilant in reducing the expenditure. Could the
House understand a proposition of that sort? He could
understand the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for West Surrey, for that stated distinctly
and categorically that the expenditure was too great,
and he hoped the House would not for an instant pass
Over what was a real and substantive proposition, to ac-
cept one which was evidently put forward as a makeshift
and excuse to escape from a plain-spoken and proper
proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
that this was a sort of charge against the Government.
Hc.t (Mr. Roebuck) accepted it in that meaning. He be-
lieved that it was and that it ought be a charge against
the Government, and he would ask any one who wished
for a sort of historical recollection for the holydaye to