The Sun.
London, England, 1825-04-30 00:00:00

CATHOLIC: CLAIMS.

Earl FORTESCUE presented a petition from Bolingbroke
in the CountyorHereford, 'against the Claims of the Catholics.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition to the same effect
froth the town and neighbourhood Of Rippon,- in the County-of
York, signed. by between six and seven:hundred persons, and-
containing, among other names of reSpeetability, that-of the
Mayor of the town. ; • • -
• The Bishop or CHESTER presented a petition-to the sante
effect' front the fritiabitsfits'of the parish of lit.-Jolinl/21;;Exeter.
The Right Reverend Prelate Observed;. that the lietition - was
voted at tt• public meeting which. -Was• regti laily.convened, =and
there was not a single dissentient voice `in the wholecasornbly.
- The Duke of RICHMOND presented a sinilkir petition
from the -Protestant Dissenters of Chichester. -Noble
Duke stated, ' that he niost.coblially stipported theprayet of the
petition.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented 'a petition to the
same:effect from the Vice-Cbancellor, Masters, and &balers of
the University of Oxford. The Noble and Learned LOrd ob-
served, that he had presented this petition in the absence of's
Noble Friend, whom he highly esteemed and respected. -
The LORD CHANCELLOR then 'presented petitions to
the same effect front,Bingley, in the county of York ; from the
congregation of Protestant Dissenters of the-chapel of Joseph
Chambers, in the town of Leicester; from Newport-Pagnel, in
the county of Buckingham ; from the Freemen and Inhabitants
of the city of Oxtbrd; from the Inhabitants Of the parish Of St.
Anne, Westminster; and-from SnoWs-tield Chapel; in the 80.
rough of Southwark. The Noble -and bearcied Lorti,:on pre-
senting the petition frOm Bingley, in Yorkshire, observed, that
it contained the signaturei 'of :the Methodist Minister-and his
flock ;•,of the Baptist Minister and Ids flock ;• and also the .
sig-
natures of many of the Independents.. • •
Lord KING-said that he did' not know. whether Or not the
petition from Newport-Pagnet alSo eontained -the-Signatures. of
Dissenters. He supposed not; as he perceived the first name
in the petition was that of' " Vicar," the
person who recently took up two Methodist preachers. •
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that be did not know
whether or not the petition contained the signatures of Dissen-
ters; but the Vicar wawalso a Justice of the Peace; and was
fully justified in arresting any' disorderly persons. •
UNITARIAN MARRIAGE )3ILL
Lord REDESDALE presenteda petitionTioth Ripon, in the
county of York, against the Unitarian Marriage Bill.—Laid on
the table. -
ST. KATHARINE'S DOCK,
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from
the Fellowship of Porters of the city of London, praying to be
heard by Counsel at the Bar of the Hotise against the St. Ka-
tharine's Dock Rill.—Laid on the table.

On the-motion of the Earl of Sir AFTESBUIIY, the Boston
Gas Bill was read a third time and passed.
•
EQUITABLE LOAN BILL.
The Earl of LIM ERlCK.presented a petition from theOrand
Jury of the county of Galway, in favour of the Equitable Loan
Bill, and other Joint-Stock Companies.
The Noble Earl presented- a- petition of •a similar nature
from the Merchants, Traders, and inhabitants of the town of
Galway.
Lord ELLENBOROUGHpresented.a petition to the same
effect from the Manufacturers and traders of Stroudwater, in the
county of GlouCester. - •
Earl GROSVENOR presented -a similar petition from• the
Officers employed at the East London Docks. '
Lord DUNCAN presented a similar petition from the Inha-
bitants of Mile End: '

• The Noble Lord presented, another of a similar nature from
the 31anufacturers of Mercies&ld.
The petitions were laid on the table.
CORN LAWS.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from the
31 erchants, Manufacturers, and Shipowners of Newcastle-upon -
Tyne, praying for a revision of the Corn Laws.
Lord llERESFORDpresented a petition from the Landed
Proprietors of Carlow against any alteration in the Corn Laws.
The petitions were laid on the table. •
• The Scotch Sheriffs' Court regulation Bill went through a
Committee, and the Report, With the amendments, -was re-
ceived.

The Convicts' -Rights Bill went through a.Committee4 and
:he 'Report was receivetL-The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

CORN LAWS.
. Mr. S. BOURNE presented a petition from Kendal, in the
county of Westmoreland, against •any alteration in the Corn
Laws—Ordered to be printed. •
.•Sir R. FERGUSSOIV presented a- petition from the Linen-
Manufacturers and Flax-spinners of Kirkalciy; in.the county
of. Fife; .against the,reduction of the duty on Foreign Linen,
and praying a revision of 'the Corn Laws.—Laid on the table.
BLACKBLTRNE presented a' petition froth the'Flour
dealers of. Warrington, in the county of Lancaster, praying
that the flour trade might be protected against,the injury con-
sequent upon. the importation of foreig,n flour.--Ordered to be
printed.
Mr. COKE (Norfolk)presented a petition from certain Lan-
downers and, Agriculturists in the 'county. of Norfolk, against
any alteration in the Corn Laws.-=raid
oil the table.

Sir E. Ain El presented -a petition from the Inhabitants
of the Hundred of Kendal, in the cottnty o Essex', against any
alteration of the Corn Laws. Also two petitions from the In-
habitants of Saffron-Walden and Littlebury to thesurne effect.
Ordered to lie on the table.

_Foe
iTednetereadatop
ebteitPiornfirnfottrteoldm
Sir A: HOPE presented a.petition from the Landowners and
Agriculturists of the County of Linlithgow. in Scotland, against
. tie:::
eiaa 1
cldor,, petition
:gnliar
:ft
fr:o.
anyu eto
ahrralfetoe
iirLednd,...
any a'teration in the. Corn Laws.-L:Ordered to be printed.
31r.. PA ITTIE presented a • petition from the Gentlemen
Clergy, and Landowners of the county Tipperary, titseiribled
at Cashel, againitt any alteration Of 'the.' Cern' Liws;:--itaid -on
the table.
Royston:Hen..
t:lie County
- fil i a, Irli
li it:1:1:3:1.: of
ar li
itTnh :eaEnyn county,iltieordf: t Bi Po rne er
r 5
iyenn,
tiosnirinj.ttsteECtomrnioLallwTs.
pinrOtsheenteedorn;i
ipa.eyttoriLui4.
on
me
wile.
to be printed. - '
ag'..s.-::iiinrr'"iC.,:a.'.nß-YDLl:raßTlNteGrDnitiAlopSnresented a petition
Cat-
low, ag:iinSt un/- alteration in the Corti Law. • .
' . 31r. LA 3111 I'ON was desirons•of adverting to what hatl been
attributed to the, Bon. and Learned lleniber for Winchi-,.sea,
by one' of thoie I:Thiele's -of inforthation • With which the public
was 'made acquainted with the proceedin6f that House. ' The
Hon. arid Learned 31-ember had been 'reported in the T.; mi.
's.
Newspaper to have' stated; that the entire population of the
county of Durham' . were against any alteration in the'. Corn
Laws. The lion. Gentleman had been 'Made to state"thii but
he (Dlr. Larnbton) understood his statement to have been ' ' h
. • !wrists of that count to e
effect, that the apieu . _ y were hostile tolhe
propose(
1 alteration. There certainly -elt: isted a-. very- -di'
versify of onion upon
the subject in that ;'rear -
'part of the•ountry.
• of • •
He beld in his hand a petition .
_wain, opposite :nature tb that
mentioned by', the,Member for_ , . s„ 1
ne-e=sea ; nitd he had no
' hesitatiOn to ' present it; though not in accordance with ha own
that.' subject. Th - n
sentiments upon
t' on -frOin Si-i all e on.. Gentle-
man then presented.cti t .
ion . f
1, well; in-the County of
Durham, in a a 'revi o t le Corn I - our t
I ..v. 0 Jaws.—Laid on
the table.
said he also wished to co? . •
31r. NEW3IAN . correct a mis-state-
:ment which it
been made with retspect to the petition' he
had presented from the southern pait..
.of Devonshire.- • It had
been incorrectly - stated that tj.i.oezetilit.ron was against
' ti-ration in' the Corn Laws. -N the prayer orthe petition
Mule'
was for protection,• in rase the . .
... . Ir_ould /tee fit tOinake
any alteration. in the existing law inimical to'the intereits'ofthe
petitioners. ' . d petition Mr. A RE RcROIVIBY presented a P from the inba.

iiitants of Youghal, in Ireland, against thy alterition.ln• tik
Corn . on the table.
• Lorrl A. the inbabatantsf of
Netirrytin.lreland, against any alteration in theiJerit:Laws.—
Laid on:the table. - ,
Lord A LTIIORP presented petitiOris.froth the
. Market7l-larborough and-Peterborough;. against-any altera-
;tion in the co* Latv9.-4..)rdered to beprtnted.
r.
• • PAPER- _ • .
fac• Stuirreltr.s. SinlAreWlandir against the ths'ePr4ediu49r.tiatai"l.9olllithtie'e'tfuPaP°ty our-zaturaelaugt;
, paper.—Laid, on the table.
;CATHOLIC CLAIMS. - •
A petition was presented from an indiiidual named. Thomas
Brook .Morris,' against any farther concessions to the gozusu
Catholicis,Ordered to be printed. :
;,
Jr.
r. DVENPORT -presentedpetition' from the:Baptists
nf• Stockport, against any further .eonceasions :to she Roman
:Citholies.—Lad•on the table..: . , •
iiffssENTER'sHILARRIAGE •
_
Lord, A . 'HILL presented a petition Irian the,Clergrot
• fortfshire, against Ole
,P4Senter3!!l44ri4C.:llilol:-7,4ldeFect to
be printed_
PROVISION roil CATHOLIC CLERGY` IN
• -
.• IItELAND. • • •
.111r.,,IANSFIELD presented a petition from the
lCurate, Churchwardens, and other parish of
'St• ,11.41..rtin's Leicester, against thakiia. aiiiiin'Ovialosi for, the
rn itoan Catholic Clergy in_lreland.—aul un the table.
ROBERT GOLIRLAY. Sir R. FLROCSS()N presented a Petition frorri,Certain in-
habitants in the county-of Fife, in favour of. Robert Gourley,
• now confined in Cold-bath Fields prisbn-LLaid_on. the table.
/T. Sl:JiilNl;lt'presented threepetitions.froM the Parish
of Siery Fifeshire, praying that the house would .be pleased
a
• •
to appoint Conimittee to inquire into the situation of. Robert
Uourlay, at present a prisoner in Cold-batli Fields.-
PROVINCIAL BANKS (1E164)- - • •
PRE.NDEItGAST presented a petition:from.the Mer-
chants and Traders of Galway, praying the. establishment of
Provincial flanks in Ireland;, also another petition to the same
effect from the Grand Jury of the County and. City of :Galway
•
Laid on the table. ..

MR. 11VADAM. "lx"" "r 4
Sir E. HARVEY-presented a petition. from,Samttel Wells
against the proposed grant to Mr. APAdam. .
DUTIES ON TOBACCO.
Colonel PORDE presented a petition from, certain Tobacco
Merchants- in the County Down, in •Ireland," praying the Re-
duction of the Duties on ,Tobacco. •
Mr. S. 'BICE said the *Wont of Goiernment haddevelup-
ed itself in reducing the duties on whiakey, apd-Sraitggling had
, decreased -in proportion. .He could wish the prayer of this
petition were complied with, and the duties. on. tobacoo reduced
•so as to put a stop to smuggling in that-,article, Which ~at. pre-
'sent prevailed to a very great extent..
Sir J. NEWPORT said, While the population oldie country
had gone on increasing, the consumption,of tobaceo, paying
duty, had decreased one-half since the:yetir.l39o, It was im-
possible but that the duty which kind .been luczei:leii:on this
article, from sd. to 3s. per lb., should prove:it Igniptittio,:i and
incentive to smuggling. And he was satistia.k if, the. Chin-
cellor of the Exchequer were to take the matter *hand, .and
deal, with it as he had, done with the ipirit;tlU.ties,;imuggling
would experience a check, and instead of dinibiishing, he
would increase the amount of revenup_derit,able .from • the
•article.
The petition was then read, and ordered .to be printed.
BUTTER DUTIES.

• Sir U. BURGH presented a petition from the county of Car-
low, against the removal of the duties on 'the-Importation ut
foreign bitter.—Laid on the table. •
COMBINA'T'ION •LA WS. • •
Mr. HUME presented two petitions from certain Manufac-
turers in the county of Lancaster, praying to be exaninied be-
fore the Committee on the subject oV 4tieCOmbination Laws.—
Referred to the Committee. ' • ' •

•
•Mr. HUME presented a petition from the' Seamen of NVltit-
,by,.irt the county of Norfolk, against .the re-enactment of the
Conibination Laws. The lionourebiem ember said much of
:the distrust and disturbance that eitiSted • among the operative
'classes arose from their apprehenaions,of ' the, re-entietment of
the laws. • If it were not• for the,:exeitemenf 'catised•by their
fears of the adoption. of Harsh and'2cornpulsopy ;frieasares,
:order would have been long since,tettored;,and=sucli!associa-
tions as that of Ayr never heard 0f..--The petition .was referred
to the •OOmmittee.

PRICE OF LABOUR AND PROVISIONS--
Mr. HUME presented a petition from certain inhabitants of
Devonshire, praying the House either to re-consider the re-
strictions. on grain, or adopt such other measutes torender the
necessaries of life procurable at a• moderate rate, tis would
enable the manufacturers of this country to compete with fo-
reigners.
- Mr. W. MABERLEY said, the .apparent -effect of the
Corn 'laws was to regulate the price of•grain, but the real
:eliet.was to compel our labourers and manufacturers -to -corn-
pete,with foreianers, Who had it in their power to purchase
provisions at alowerrate than they. It would seem that the
• skill of the British manufacturer was expected to counterba-
. lance the superior• cheapness of provisions on the- Continent.
and elsewhere; but it Waspretty well understood.that our-skill
• had been transferred to Ainerica ; and it was also admitted that
in that country they were now able to rival us in the Cotton
' manufacture at least. •

:The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
COUNTY RATES MORTGAGE BILL.
Mr, •ESTCOURT moved the Order of the. Day for these-
cond reading of the County-Rates Mortgage Bill ; it was ac-
cordingly read a second time, and ordered to be'committed on
Monday nett.

• GAME LAWS. • • •- • •
Mr. S. WORTLEY moved the • Order-of -the Day for the
third reading of the Game Laws' Amendment Bill.
- Sir JOHN-SHELLY complained that the subject had not
been treated fairly by -the 'House. • -In ,18$4 1019,•and18211,
there were. more commitments than in any.-year=before, but this
*as owing to the depressed litatO of 'agriculture; • :,ince that
period erimeihad'notincreased, and dertaitily:there4AlS.no in-
crease of the offence of poaching: Of 1,209 Coetirtfitthents, in
One instance, only • '5Bl • were • commitinenes‘• tindetr"the-liattne
Laws. There was not • a sUffiCient space in England breed
game for, an open market, and the'Climate• was agaitiSt snch a
system. He Could 'call this Bill nothing but popitiat- demo-
cratic Bill; althinigh sortie cif its clauses were ultra-aristocratic.
particularly the second clauie that gave the,right of free warren
rindfree:chaSe -to landlords, and by which ainan might. its pu-
7tislied,fordestroying game, dr a rabbit up this owngrounds.
lie WnoVed that the Bill.shotild be read shat day six Months.
• ,Sir J.- BRYDGES'spOke againitt.the Biil. :••• • •
FANE opposed the third reading of 'the-Bill.
• • Al r.!-CII.IP•PS rose--amidst loud t ries, of " st4tiestiOn." • The
Hon. 'Nerriber,, after -a few observationtt,- said he would sit
down'Witha4Yerfect confidence that thetßill would not pass: -
• Mr: HOME :-SUAINER• • 'Opposed the ids t -cries of
"'Question ! question !"
~ • • '• • •
Mr ft.'COLBORNE said, tbrittlie effect-of this bill 'Would
be to- remove the-danger of - poaching, anti afford a'sate Market
to the poacher. file opposed it not with reference to the pre-
Nervation of . game,: but from a feeling that it -would'produce
creased evil, without remedying any of tilt fifteen of the pre-
sent system. - •; - :•. • • .„ - • • • •
-• Me. -TENNYSONSUpported the bill on the ground that it
would-have effect of checking poaching. - •• • • -
----Sir HiII'IVYND Opposed the bill, several clauses of
Which- he:read and einritn en tett upon, t the noise in ie •Rouse
drowned- tbe•Htin:' ert observations.
' !Sir:II: VIVIAN trittiavi opposed the bill, not merely- be-
.
cattle- he did not conceive it tatettlated-to repress poaching, but
beceMse he felt It-would add to the evils of the existing •system.
-The Eicui Member 'skid, that --amongst. other -evils; it would
have effect of destroying the fine manly. sport of•foit hunting
in proof of the -benefit of this, he instanced the opinion Of the
Duke. of Wellington (who, •he observed,- had added much to
our military glory),••that for service that.roquired exertion and
dispatch• he always: preferred those 'offiders. who 'had 'been,'ae -
entitoinett to cross a COOP try .—( Hear I and • la*g.h.)L-41e. Oh.
11, Vivian) fully concurred in this .opinion;- and had invariably
actedupon it. • • • • •- • ' • . '
Mr.,S. WORTLEY Said; that he-had directed his Bill pre-
cisely against the -evils- mentioned by the-Hon:". -Ritrtinet who
ftpiike last. • -It was a matter of very little ' import/nee whether
thiti Bill Made garne • a -little metre or a little lees numerous
main objeCtlie had in view was to diminish the erimt of
ing,•and he trusted the measure vietidd, be effect, al. ; He looked
finivard td thetime,.and that at t`ioiltreattlaitiiCe, when• gi‘me
-Wetild he:Sider like any-other •specteS• of. pr4llOl.Y. CS .uld
not persuade himself that • :hoilev•eiriffeecetit.•:hfitth.:o b
Pen al Laws c:ultdo
discourage: fox-hunting;. Be- was • extreuiely. anxious that the
inea-Sure ShOtittl pass, being

astemplish the beneficial purpose he wished to attain. Whe-
ther the BM were or were not passed, he should persevere
as long as the law continued, as at present, an intolerable nui-
sance.
The House then divided—For the Third Reading, 94
Against it, 69—Majority, 25.
The Bill was accordingly read a third time, and on re-enter-
ing the Gallery, we found Mr. S. WORTLEY proposing an ad-
ditional clause, but after a few words from Mr. LOCKHART,
it was withdrawn.
Sir 0. CHETWYND suggested several vefaal amend-
ments, which were adopted, and the Bill was pass.-d.
LABOURERS' WAGES. •-
Lord J. RUSSELL moved for an Abitract open the subject
a Labourers' Wages. • •
PROVISION FOR THE CATHOLIC /LERGY.
Lord F. L. GOWER said, he rose to Move a Resolution.
whish would record the opinions of. that House on -the expedi-
ency of making a provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy of
Ireland. If, since the period berore the Recess, when he;gave
notice of hie intention to-bring this subject before the House,
he had naturally looked forward with some apprehension to the
responsibility which such an undertaking involved, and with
ausiety which might have led him to wish that some one of
these highlyeseiftedindividuals, posessing powers so much be-
yond any which his humble talents could supply, had introduced
this question to their notice—he could not but think, now that
circumstances had occurred sine sin
nsion he gave that notice, which mtha-
terially lessened the apprehe which the importance of e
eetereeweisetrany excited, when he heard the Hon. and Learned
ilernher for Winchelsea attribute an Importance to this question
scarcely inferior to that of Catholic Emancipation itself, lie could
not but feel, differing as he did, in a degree, aeto the importance
that his confidence rose in proportion to the individual benefit
which he thought must be-the result of his proposition. While,
therefore, he went far with that Learned Gentleman in his opt.
inion of the importance of this question, he did not despair of
being able to Persuade him to go some way with him in think-
ing it a fit subject for consideration, as to how far it might be
likely to promote the welfare of the Sister Kingdom. Diffident
as he felt himself, whenever he had directed his humble means of
judgment to this question, still he had always thought, approach-
ing it with a mind unjaundiced by mean and local prejudice, and
unaffected by any illiberal party spirit, that it would materially
tend to promote the welfare of Ireland.—(Hear, hear !)—Diffi.
dent, indeed, as he felt upon every subject connected with the
affairs of that country, he felt happy to find that his opinions
were shared by many of those illustrious men, whose exertions
were now unhappily-lost to thaellouse-ehappy, he would say;
that his opinions had been shared by Pitt, Castlereagh, and
Cornwallis. They were supported, too, by one eminent man
of the present' day, whose sentiments upon the question he
would take the liberty to lay before the House in an extract
from the Debates of the year 11312. That Gentleman, the
Member for Louth (Mr. Leslie Forster) whose knowledge of
the details of this question—whose laboriourexertions--whose
extershre research and powerful advocacy classed him high
among the enemies of Catholic Emancipation—has said,—
" Had the Parliament of Ireland (he meant the Parliament
select' first relaxed the Penal Laws) consulted the Welfare of
that country, they would not have adopted a policy towards
the clergy which has estranged -them from the Government,
and yet placed- a power in their hands which may often prove
injurious to it. They (the clergy) should not have been left
dependent upon the bounty of their flocks, and placed almost
hi a statteof pauperism, if they offended or differed from those
who contributed to their support. The Veto I consider an
idle bauble, not -worth either acceptance or refusal, but if that
day should ever-come othen the Catholic Clergy would be paid
by the Crown—when promotion would be laid open to them as
well as the Protestant—when a regular education may be ob-
tained at Maynooth—then I, for one, do not hesitate to declare
my opinion, that the difficulties in the way of Catholic Eman-
cipation will be very much smoothed."- These were the record-
ed opinions of the Honourable Member many years ago. He
- (Lord F. L. Gower) only asked that his little bark might sail
in the wake of the Hon. Member's stately vessel, and by the
advantage of his skilful pilotage, reach the desired haven. He
had stated it-to be his opinion, that this measure would be most
desirable, if it could be effected ; and while he knew that it was
• considered by many Members of the !louse, and among others
by the Ilion. Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Leotighatn) and the
Right Hon: Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose absence he re-
gretted, both in its cause and effect, that it should be preceded
by Catholic Emancipation, still he would leave to the sense of
. the !louse both that question and the details connected with the
Bill of which this motion was intended to form the ground-
- work. He would be content to state, as a matter of opinion,
the objects he proposed to accomplish, and the advantages he
hyped to derive from a provision for Roman Catholic Clergy-
men. And first, he would mention the improvement which it
would produce- in the state of the Roman Catholic Priesthood,
by giving them an interest in common with the State—
the melioration of the condition of the peasantry—and,
as a collateral, but not less iniportant circumstance, the
security afforded.to the Protestant Establishment, and the con-
sequent addition to the stability of the empire.—( Hear !)—With
regard to the provision to the Clergy, he -must here explain
that he did not mean to make any immediate increase o( in-
, come to all the Priesthood, but to the two extremes, the Bishops
and the Curates. He thought, looking at the sources from
whence they derived their present provision, that any fixed in-
came must be a great benefit, as well as a relief, to the unfor-
tunate Catholic peasant. He wished here to meet is amine an
- objection which he had heard mentioned, that this provision was
intended to cut off the connection of the peasan try with the priest-
hood, and place the latter under the immediate controul of the
Government. To that imputation or suspicion he begged here
-to give the most solemn denial. lie was disposed to concur
upon that point with a Reverend Prelate (Dr. Doyle), whose
character stood deservedly high in the estimation of that House
that the offerings should, in the event of any provision, be al-
lowed to remain ; and although lie (Lord F. Gower) would
wish to relieve the Catholic peasant from a burthen which press-
ed heavy upon him, and when he looked at the way in which
t. • Loo offerings were made, and considered that they were given
upon the most sacred and affecting of all ceremonies—that of the
performance of the rites of burial—hecould not but allow that
- the peasant should contribute a something to the support of him
in this world to whom he looks for salvation in the next. There
was a circumstance he would mention here which strikes con-
viction to his mind as to the propriety of the arrangement he
- proposed—he meant that portion of Air. O'Connell's evidence
, which referred to the state of the Catholic. Clergy. 'That Gentle-
man says that the Catholic Clergymen were mostly, if not .al.
ways, of the lower orders of society. Now, while he (Lordl.
de Gower), could not admit there was. any crime of-reproach •in
• that which had been the peculiar characteristic of the first Chris-
tians (Hear), still lie could not but regret that any eircum-
eeances should prevent the higher orders of Catholics from be-
coming the pastors of their countrymen, or that any individual
should find occasion to repress his religious zeal from the unta-
- yourable situation in which he would be called to display it.—
It was idle to say that Government could have an intention of
controulling the people by interesting the priests,. for it was well
known, that though in peaceful times they led, in troublesome
tittlt they were obliged to follow their flocks. Upon this sub-
ject lie had been furnished with a letter, addressed to a friend
by the late Lord Cornwallis, and as it might be allowed that his
Lordship had considerable experience in the affairs of Ireland,
he trusted the House would perniit him to read it.—(Hear !)
• Hie Lordship then read the letter, which stated, that the Noble
writer being long acquainted with Ireland, had frequently turn-
ed his attention to a consideration of its affairs, and that-no sub-
ject had more occupied his attention than the policy of making
a provision for the clergy.. From all that had come to his know.
ledge, he was convinced that no priest could do his as a
loyal subject, without incurring; the hatred or displeasure of his
fleck. This was the opinion of Lord. Cornwallis. He (Lord
G.) coincided in it most fully, and lie would say that it was not
to be tolerated' that the Catholic Clergyman should continue in
- such a situation. - If he, was active, he was called disloyal—if
quiet, a plotter of treason—if the advocate of peace, the be-
trayer of his religion. He would say that ha should not continue
• tens to be lashed to the, essel of the State,-subject to all its for.
tunes and vicissitudes, teased abeutivith every tempest,-but that
lie should be placed in a situation to act, not as the Minister, or
tie Government, or the people, should command him, hut as
• duty and conscience would direct him.—(lleac!),He•stated
this with the mere pleasure, because it was echo -of the semi.
nientsof the famous Edmund Burke on the same subject. "sThe
-Noble Lord then read the passage from Mr. Pukes Works,
20 whichlie alluded. He believed that much prejudice and
ignorance existed on this subject,. and it was therefore with no
small pleasure that be (Lord Gower) turned
.to that part of Mr.
O'Connell's evidence, when he alludes to the monument raised
by a Protestant congregation to a Catholic Priest, .and when
he relates the. circumstances of the Protestant Rector and his
parishioners accompanying the body to the grave. Such an
event spoke _volumes ; it was grateful to turn from the records
of bigotry and prejudice to the simple recital of such events as
these; it was gratifying to view the transition frond sectarianism
to Christianity. If it would appear that property has soured
-the impulses of Christianity, he would place them in a situation
to draw forth the kindlier feelings; and he would repeat it here
that he might not be misunderstood ; but he would reject anti
remedial measure, if it was intended. to undermine the religion
of those who were to be benefited, or to render their ministers
.subservient to the tyranny or intolerance ofd Government. He
would tell them, in the language of Burke, he preferred his
own faith ; but as long as Ireland continued Catholic, and in
his opinion there was very little probability of its ever being
otherwise, he thought there was justice, prudence, and sound
policy, in giving the Catholic Priesthood a distinct interest in the
State. Here he could appeal from theory to practice, and call
upon the House to look at the Presbyterians, and point out in
.ste y instance of the interference of Government. Since the grant-
ing of that provision which had been forced upon the attereion

. .
of every Sovereign since the time of James 1., they had been Mr. IIL'3IE rose to oppose the Motion. He looked at the
provided for out of the funds of the State; and yet he would proposed measure as distinct from the other to which it was
challenge any Member of that House to point out a more re- said to be allied, but while opposing the motion" he begged
spectable body of men, or une mute beloved by those who look- to be understood as not yielding to the Noble .Lord in his,
ed up to them for counsel. Upon; these grounds he would be desire to ameliorate the condition of Ireland. He objected,
content to rest the Resolution, as deserving the support however, to any measure which had -for its object to pro.
of the House. The adoption of this motion he would further vide for Catholic priests, unless a similar provision were
insist upon as some compensationfor the past misgovernment of made forthe dissenting clergy., He also objected to a „,ea-
Ireland, to the people of that country. They had been depriv-- sure of such importance without nny infertnation having
ed of almost every thing but of those hopes of a future state, been laid before the House, proving a necessity for it, or de-
which we could not take from them ; and its charity, as well as scribing the fund out of which that proposed provision was to
justice, we were bound now in advance the prosperity of that be paid. Had these been .stated they might have tended to
country by every means in our powers There was another topic remove the difficulties. which the measure would have to en-
connected with this subject to which he felt it to be his duty to counter. He was sure no Hon. Gentleman would attempt to
advert. Economy was a watch-word that always influenced contend, that the Dissenters were not entitled to as mach con-
thepassions of the people, anti was peculiarly calculated to ex- ,ideration as the Catholics in proportion to their relative num-
cite the jealousy and alarm of a commercial nation ; the House, hers. - The Dissentees of Ireland were estimated at 000,000,-
he hoped, would bear in mind that principles of economy their clergy at 300 to 400, who were paid about 2001. per an-
might sometimes be stretched too far, and instead-of being use- Mini each ; the exact sums were 11,904/. for the dissenting
ful and creditable, they become a _ disgrace to an individual, clergy, and 4,9891. for sending Members from the Synod,
and a curse to a nation.—(Hear !)—That word—that .charined in all 13,894/. Was it upon these facts that the Noble Lord
word—would not surely carry force and influence with it, who- eagle I upon the House to agree to a vote of 250,0001. a-year
ever may be the magician ' using it.—'hear')-,When it ,was to the Catholic Clergy, and to such, a paltry provision for
raised as an 'obstruction to a measure, which was calculated the dissenting ministers. The gallant officer (Colonel Pa-:
and intended to give relief to an agitated country,--to tranquil- keidionit said we owed the dissenters nothing ; now he
lize a long-suffering peasantry—to eradicate from their minds (Mr. Hume) would contend, that if we owed the Catholics
the hostility which they entertained against others of their any thing, we owed the Dissenters much more. He did not
country, and to " cleanse the foul bosom of the perilous stuff' thipk.the people of England and Scotland would consent to
that weighs upon the soul," autioo restrain the arm which was giant such a stipend without previous inquiry ; for these rca-
hitherto
moved for midnight assassination—these were the de- sons lieshould move as an amendment, for a Committee to in-
sitable objects of the great measure which was now before the quire into the policy of granting an annual suns for the support
House, and which -would derive additional force and effect from of the Dissenting Clergy of England and Scotland, and of the
those measures by which it was- proposed to be succeeded, one Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland, and also to consider what
of which he had not the honour to submit. Although this was ought to be the amount of such grant.
not, perhaps, the proper period to allude to the details of the • Mr. W. BA NtiES thought the Noble Lord's motion in-
.present measure, yet he wished to give the House an outline volved an unreasonable proposition, and one which did not meet
of the plan lie intended to submit, which might, howtrer, be the wishes of any party. It appeared from the examinations
subject to subsequent alteration: In this plan, the task was before the Committee, that the Catholic Priests would rather
simplified to hire by a recurrence to precedent : that prece- do without the stipend, and that the laity would not-consider it
dent was fir be found in the establishment of the Preebytee as a boon ; therefore tile Catholic Clergy and laity were both
rians in Ireland. A direct salary was first paid to the Clergy opposed to it. The Noble Lord had stated, as one of the bene-
of that body in the reign of James I. They subsequently re- tits to be derived from this areangernent, that the people would
ceived, under a new regulation, the. regium donusti in 1719. in be sewneatedfrein the clergy, which would diminish the in-
the reign of Geoige 1.., and the last arrangement had been fluence of the latter. There was no necessity for such a conse.
made- respecting them in 1803 by Lord Castlereagh, which quence; for if the Catholic. Relief Bill passed, the advocates
was the onehe would allude to principally in the motion that of that ineasure.held, that the spirit of insurrection would exist
he should recommend. The number of parish priests in Ire- no longer in Ireland—(Hear, hear !)-11e considered that the
land were 934, or, to take them in round numbers, 1,008.= argument of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume)
Besides these, there were curate', - who were at present very was entitled to much consi.toration. Ile agreed with that Hon.
scantily and insufficiently provided for. As in the case of the Gentleman, that it was not a pleasant thing for the Dissenters
Presbyterians, according to the last arrangement, he would to see a large class, standing in the same relation to the Esta.
Fropose to divide the clergy into three classes ' • for the first class blishett Church, assuming a new ground, whilst they were left
he.would propose to take one-tenth, or two hundred, at 2001. in their old Station. It would be a great grievance for the Dim-
aenear ; for the second four-tenths, or eight
,lmndred, 1201. centers to be obliged to pay the Catholic Priesthood ; it would
a-year ; and for the third class, or one thousand, 601. a-year. oblige them to support no less than three systems of religion.—
This would require an annual sum of 196,0001. As to the The Protestant would have to pay his own Clergy and the Ca-
provision for the Roman Catholic clergy, considering the sta. tholic Clergy; the Catholic would hare to pay his own and the
tion they had to fulfil, the obvious demands upon them, and Clergy of the Established Church; but the Dissenter would
the charities they were called upon to supply, it would not be have to pay the Clergy of the Established Church, the Roman
' an unreasonable provision to give the four Archbishops 1,5001. Catholic Clergy, and his own Clergy too. If the Dissenters
a-year, for the 22 Bishops, 1,0001. a-year, and for 26 'Deane should press those objections, be felt that the argument would
3001. per annum. This would be a sum total of 35;000/., be all on their side. Under all the circumstances, if the pro-
being altogether a sum not exceeding 231,0001. This 'was, no position of the Noble Lord was carried into operation, he could
doubt, a considerable sum, but no larger than was mated to the scarcely consider that the Established Church existed as an
purposes for which it was required, or than would be repaid to Established ('Much, anti he should therefore call upon the lion.
the State by the advantages it would derive from such a .provi- Gentlemen agreeing with hhts to express their decided negative
sion. It would entitle Protestant rulers to address the Roman on the measure.
Catholic clergy of Ireland in a different tone from that in which - Mr. I'. P. COURTENA V apologised for addressing the
they were entitled to address them now, and to say to theth— House, anti hoped that the same indulgence would be ex.
" SVe supply you from our own stores, and we do not ask for tended to him that he might hope - for if he were a new
an unfair return in asking you to exercise your. influence as Member. Ile wished, while he had a hearing, to expresi
Christians, and for the benefit of the country. We possess a hie dissent front some of those with whom lie was hereto-
power which it would be vain in you to attack, for we possess fore in the habit of acting, in doing
,which lie would go no
means to defend it, and we are determined to do so.—(Hear !) further into the general question of Catholic Claims than was
But you in your turn possess& power, which, as we alter the necessary for a due understanding of the present measure.—
mode of government adopted. by our forefathers, we expect you For his own part lie never saw any objection to these claiMs
will turn to promote the mutual advantages of all classes of that did not apply with equal force to the case of all-Protest-
your countrymen , and eiethehoon is given with a grace and ant Dissenters. In the proposition then before the House, they
spirit, you will be disposed to turn it to the promotion of that were called upon tint only to vote for the general question of
charity which is the first duty of religion, and the epirit anti Emancipation, but also that which went .to make a provision
object in which, and for which it was established on earth."— for the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. In their doe-
(Hear, hear !)—Any effort to disturb that tranquillity, which 'trines, that Church was not more repugnant to the principles of
it is their interest as well as duty to encourage and establish, -the Church of England, than-were the received and acknow.
must only terminate in common ruin. The measure was one ledgrd doctrines of many classes of Protestant Dissenters.—
that would bind the Roman Catholic Clergy more closely to the Nay, On the contraryehe saw finne affinifwbetween the Roman
State, mad whatever was the charge to the revenue, would be Catholice and the Established Church, and less danger to be
amply repaid by a diminished army list.—(Hear, hear!)-The apprehended from the latter than from the Dissenters. He
Noble Lord aoncludcd by moving that it is expedient that pro- did not believe that time Roman Catholics would wish to sub-
vision by law should be made for the maintenance of the secular vest the Church of England, with any other view than that of
Roman Catholic Clergy, discharging religious functions in substituting their own.—(Laughter.) —The Dissenters, he con-
Ireland. tended., would destroy it even without a similar view. He would
Colonel BAGWELL, in supporting the present motion, ex- ask, was the danger removed or brought nearer by the payment
pressed the respect in ;inch he held the Clergy of the Estab- of. the Roman Catholic Clergy ? When their religion ceased
fished Church of this country for their learning and piety ;"but, to be proscribed; would not the Roman Catholic Clergy en-
highly as they merited attention, their remonstrances ought tertain reasonable and natural expectations of seeing their own
not, in his opinion, to prevent the House from adopting a men- religion established. For his own individual part he felt the.
sure essential to the peace of Ireland and the honour and con- strong conviction; that the Clergy of the Roman Catholic
cord of both nations. He had no admiration for the Houton Chttreh might be brought into much closer, connection with the
Catholic religion, bat it was improper, he thought, to impute (2burch of England than they had hitherto been. lie was afraid
idohatory to a Christian sect, the more so as the laws which that what lie was going to say might subject him to reprehen.
were formerly passed against the Roman Catholics , were not sion, but he could not help declaring, that he thought the
passed against the faith of the Roman Catholics, but against. Church of England required too great a minuteness of confor-
the practices of the Roman Catholics in this country at a parti. unity, and he was then convinced that the time had arrived when
cular period. He would be lenient to the errors of the 'lonian the Articles of the Church of England ought to be revised.--
Catholics, as he hoped that others would be to his own. As.to (Hear, hear !)—lf any one would take the trouble to read the
this measure, he supported it on its own merits, and because it elirty-nineelrticles.—(A laugh.)--He would rather close his
would render the power and influence of the Roman Catholic observations then say any thing which would make this solemn_'
Clergy serviceable to the State. The other measure, relative matter a subject of ridicule.—(Crier of "Go on.")—lie then
to the elective franchise, he also supported upon separate proceeded to notice some alterations whiCh from time to time
grounds, because he thought the present system of elective had been made in these articles, and observed, that being mat-
franchise in Ireland wss bad, and required revision ; but he ters merely speculative, no two persons could be found to agree
supported them both on separate grounds, and distinct from in them. To this he would only add, that being a supporter
the Roman Catholic Question, which he supported as a mea- of the Catholic question generally, he would find it his duty to
sure of substantial justice, essential to the prosperity of Ireland, vote against the present measure.
and to the safety of this great empire. Lord 0. CAVENDISH did not believe that the Catholics of
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER was anxious to take an early oPPor- Ireland expected that their Church would become the este-
tunity of offering to the Noble. Lord his sincere thanks for origi, Wished one in that country.—(Hear !
that the present measure was intended to erect in that country
noting the present motion. n e was desirous also to correct a )—lf he himself thought
misconception into which some Personshad fallen, that he (Mr. a grand hierarchal establishment, with a powerful revenue and
L. Foster) had maintained that there was any irresistible barrier an influential train of institutions, such as would enable it to
to the concession of the Catholic Claims.----(Hear, hear !)—lt compete with the Protestant establishment, he would certainly
was natural dint a difference of opinion should exist upon the oppose the measure ; but be did not think it would have any
subject of those Claims. He had his own opinions upon that
such effect. lie put it to the House, whether it was just or po-
subject—opinions which he had maintained in early life, and from litic to leave any longer six millions of their Catholic fellow-
which he saw no reason at present to swerve. With respect to subjects, in the present state of exclusion—whether it would not
the Catholic Laity (the aristocracy in particular) lie had never be wiser to attach to the Constitution and the State ? The State
seen any difflcoley in the way of concession as far as they were could riot do without the Catholic Clergy in the Government of
concerned. lie had never maintained that they were unfit to Ireland ;it should have moral masters and teachers of the Irish
participate in the enjoyment of civil rights; on the contrary, he people.—(hear !)—The payment intended for the Catholic
was acquainted with most of the leading men of the Cetbolic Clergy was not excessive, it was merely atr much as would enable
Aristocracy of Ireland, with those who, if the measure of Email- the State to give to the peasantry enlightened and educated in-
cipation passed, would be most likely to obtain seats in that structors. He hoped the House would support both that mea.
llouse and his knowledge of those gentleman enabled himto cure, and the great one of Catholic Emancipation ; but he
state that there were no persons more calculated to do them also trusted that the details of this Bill would be such, as to
honour by their co-operation.—( Hear !)—The ntisfortune of remove the Catholic Clergy beyond the undue influence of the
this question, however, was, that the laity formed but a part of Crown, or of any Foreign Power. He thought it would be a
the Catholic body, and that the most influential and the most great advantage to *lreland, which was, if not in a state of
dangerous was the Clergy. Such was his feeling, and it was barbarism, certainly in a state of ignorance. Many of her
with this feeling that he wished to attach the Catholic Clergy to evils had arisen from that ' ignorance. A well paid re
the existing Government, and by that means prevent the evils spectable Clergy would rend to enlighten that ignorance.
which he could not but apprehend front leaving them in their The present measure would reform - and moralise the mind
present state, forming a kind of imperil/in in is/Teri°, exercis. of the Irish peasant—even though it stood separate from the
ing a predominant influenceover the minds of the lower orders, great question, it should have his mostcordial and conscientious
and with no motive of attachment to the State. He had been support —( Hear' hear !)
favourable to the principle of the veto, when originally sug. NIL Secretary PEEL next rose, and said, that he was in-
gested, but had thought it did not meet the evil for which it duced to offer a few observations to the House at that early
was proposed as a remedy—because it only gave to the Crown hour, as the debate threatened to last for a considerable period.
the right of interference in the appointments" to the highest It was agreed by. Hon. Members on all sides, that the present
ranks of the Catholic Clergy.---( The Hon- and Learned Mem- was a separate question in itself, and quite distinct from the con.
ber here read an extract from aspeech made by him on a similar sideration of others. The *trine-which condemned civil dis-
subject, in the year 1817, to prove, that in opposing the ques. abilities, on account of religious opinions, may be proper, or
tion at present before the House, be was not acting inconeiste may be not.. He would_ not on that occasion utter a word
ently with his former expressed opinions.)—He was principally upon it—he would state no opinion on it, upon which the ad.
opposed to the measure, because It, was a provision by a Pro. vocates of the Catholic Relief Bill could ground a declaration,
testant State, not merely for the support of the Catholic Clergy, a discussion, or even a dissent. ' The present question induct-
hut to enable them to promote those objects which were always ed distinct considerations ; it should be looked at on grounds '
uppermost with them—the advaocentent, greatness. and glory distinct and independent of the subject of Catholic Eman.
9f the,Catholie Religion, He did not now, nor at any former ciPati°n• The real point before the House was, whether
period, oppose the claims of the Catholic Laity to the full be- the State would support and foster the religious opinions of
nefits of the Constitution, provided sufficient security weregiven those persons, the payment of whom was contemplated by the
against that over-reaching and innovating principle which his. motion under discussion. 'He could see no natural bond of
tory vroved was the essence of their religion. It was contended, connection between the two measures—lie could perceive no
that no danger would attend the admission into that House of reason why this particular question should be discussed at this
a few Roman Catholics, for that once admitted they would particular time. Suppose Catholic Emancipation to be carried
lose their ditinctive character. That assumption he denied— in this Session, what would prevent the discussion of this mea-
and by analogy; for it had been proved that time admission sure in the next. The ensuing Session would be on many ac-
that no class of risen had had the effect described. The West countsehe more proper. The mind of the Catholics was now
Indian Proprietore for example. had they lost their distinc- in a partial state of fervor. If -the Catholic Relief Bill should
tive character ? . Had they in that House ceased to act pass in this Session, both the Parliament and the country would
together ? Certainly not. For whenever a question was 1°- come to time consideration of the present measure in the next
der discuesion, which involved their -interests as a class,
„ theyf amnilwith temperate feelings and unbiassed judgments.--
were to be found actinu together in neffect .harmony °a— tt•- (Hear i e--No question was more important than that of .the
son—whether in relatera t the admission of sugar from Ben. ,connection of the Catholic religion with the State. None deserved
gal, the coffee of Macao, or the cotton of Egypt. In like man- more cool, more calm, more dispassionate, discussion. The
net_ the Catholics would, if admitted, be •Cound acting as one Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) proteosed as a condition of this
man in that „House on every occasion ,in which the interests of Bill, that the State should provide an annual stipend for the
their .religiuo should be concerned. ,But .if the day were to Catholic Clergy of Ireland. Now was there any yractical in-
arrive when the Catholic Claims should be divested of those formation before the Titiuse to enable it to legislate on that
dangers which had so frequently been described as likely to re- important subject ? Was there even a knowledge among
stilt from conceding them, he should M
hail it not only as a mea- embers of the _retails of the very measure on which they
sure calculated to promote time safety of the state, and one of were _called on to give their vote ? Did lion.
.3.letribers
peculiar -satisfaction to his own feelings. In his view of the know .what
particular sum was proposed to be paid b the
question before the House, the character of the proposed stipend State to a Church which was not to be subject. to thee cone()
should be a principle of alleviation and not of trod of the State—to a Church which wits intend de
State • for remain, unconnected with,
provision for the Catholic Religion by a Protestant . ,
l'• tent details.
after the donation of that stipend,
to time people,
the country? No •
he could not see how a Protestant State could conscientiously and independent of, the Governinent of
or consistently apply its revenue to the support or extending of Gentlemen knew nothing, absolutely nothing, of those =polo
tile power .of the Catholic Religion. Ilow then could they be required, or why should

they proceed to enact a law on the subject without a full and
clear explanation of those details ?—(Hear !)—ln no country
of Europe did the Catholic Church- exist paid by the State,
and, at.. the same time, remain independent of the State.—
( Hear !)—But it may be urged that England was an exception
in favour of the principle of the motion. He did not think so.
Her national institutions -bare directly against it—the payment
by the State of 250,000/. a year to a clergy over which the State
was to have no controul, was clearly opposite to the principles
of the Constitution. Ile did not claim a controul on the part
of the State, with a view to increase the influence of the Crown,

in the North of Ireland had never been productive of any
thing but benefit. The Catholic Clergy were equally de-
serving of payment and assistance from the State. The Ho-
nourable Member entered into an estimate of the high character
and the useful services of the Roman Catholic Clergy. The
evidence taken before the Committee was full of proof on this
point, they were ready to make every sacrifice of fortune or of
life to promote the general welfare and tranquillity of the
country. Ile thought this the most desirable moment to press
the Bill, and the expence was scarcely worth a moment's consi-
deration. The Hon. Gentleman protested, on the honour of a
Member of Parliament, and a Gentleman, that he had received
the greatest assistance in his .magisterial duties from the ltoman
Catholic Clergy, and he felt it his duty to support every mea-
sure which would give them relief.—(Hear !)
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the present measure, because
the House was not in possession of the requisite informa-
tion. The motion of the Noble Lord was general, vague,
and inconsistent. If the House were prepared to come to a
decision, that the Roman .Catholic Priests were to be paid-
by the State, that they were to take security for the great
measnie, as it was called, the only mode of proceeding~
was to say at once what payment the Priests were to
receive. It was not unimportant at the same time, to con.;
sider what would be given as security to the country. If
he understood the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, the in-
tended measure would diminish the influence of the Priests, by
promoting a proper system of education • but in proportion as
they decreased the influence of- the Secular Clergy, they would-
add to the difficulties of the Regular Clergy. if they made
provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy, it would be unjust to
withhold it from the Dissenters. The precedent would be most
unfortunate. It would hold out to all classes of Dissenterathat
they should be turbulent, and persevere until they gained sup-
port like the Catholic Priests. The Right Hon. Gentleman did
not wish to argue the propriety of making a grant to the Dig
senters generally. He should confine himself to the question,
which ought to stand on Its own niellts. He certainly could not'
view, without alarm, establishments in every parish in Ireland,
operating against other establishments. It was scattering the
seeds of animosity, and he was obliged to object to the propoli.•
tion, because it held out expectations which the House hereafter
would not be prepared to realize.
Mr. CALCRAFT, in the then exhausted state of the House,
was not disposed to make many observations-. He saw how
the question under consideration was connected with the great,
measure. Looking at the bill for the benefit of Ireland, he
thought the three questions ought to be taken together. The
sum of 250,0091. could not be a matterof objection, particularlY
if they considered the state .of the Irish Clergy, and that the.
peace of Ireland was concerned. So anxious was he to cam.
plete the measures of security, that he would go further than
the proposed sum. The period had arrived when the Roman
Catholic Clergy could take the proposed allowance without any
disgraceful submission, and Gentlemen should not pause in.
making the proposed grant. The resolution had his hearty
concurrence. _ _

or to add to its power—he disclaimed any such intentions—he
mentioned the circumstance merely for the purpose of shewing
the political importance of the subject, the intricacy of its con-
nections with general principles of State policy, and the anomaly
of its provision from the particular maxims of the British Con-
stitution. The House may, of course, consider whether the
State ought to pay the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland in
the manner in Which it 'supported the Protestant Clergy of
England, or the Presbyterian Clergy of Scotland, or in the
Method proposed by the Noble Lord who moved the resolu-
tion but at all events, he trusted that they would seek some
sound and practical information before they should proceed to
make it a subject of legishitive enactment.—(lleac, hear !)
The allowances made by the Crown at present to the Presby-
terian Clergy of Ireland could not, in his apprehension, be
considered a precedent for granting the provision now required
by the resolution before the House, because the House was not
in possession of the necessary evidence to form its opinion. He
had this very evening inquirtid if the evidence had been
printed, and distributed for the use of the Members, and lie
had . been told it • was not yet printed. In that evidence he
was informed that Doctor Cooke had stated distinctly before
the Committee, that the Presbyterians of the North of Ire-
land did not attempt to dispute any of the doctrines of the
Church of England, but, on the contrary, were disposed. to as
sent to them. IVavin,, altogether all theological argument on
the subject, the Legislature must, if they made this allowance
to the Catholic Clergy, be prepared to alter the fundamental ar-
ticles- of the Protestant Religion : indeed, it would be vain
and silly to ask Members coining into this House to take the
usual oath, after having voted 2.50,0001. to support the Ca.
tholic Church.—(Hear !)—lt was desirable that the priesthood
of Ireland should not, for political reasons, receive their educe-
tion in a foreign country ; therefore the grant to Meynooth Col-
lege stood on altogether different grounds from this, which ap-
portioned 10001. a-year to each of the Roman Catholic Bishops,
1,5001. a-year to their Archbishops, and so in proportion for
the various orders of the lesser clergy of that church. Not a
single Member had this evening referred to the very important
head of providin., for the regular clergy of Ireland. The
provision was only intended for the secular clergy ; and jet
it was matter of notoriety, that in Ireland there were no less
than forty-two religious houses of the Franciscan or Demi-
tan Order. Was it not to be apprehended, that if these were
not provided for, there would doubtless be abundant ground
for controversy between them and the secular clergy ; or that
a _spirit of volunteering to outstrip the seculars in the zeal.
ous performance of duty might pervade this Body, and mate-
rially interfere with the purposes of the Legislature in passing
this bill ? Besides, the whole of this arrangement was not
likely to prove effectual, except a communication took place on
the subject with the See of Rome. If the Roman Catholic
Priests are to be paid by our Government, will the Papal Go-
vernment dispense with the obligations and oaths they now are
obliged to take. Looking to the evidence of Dr. Doyle, he
thought it was not possible they should not come to the conclu-
sion that they ought not to make the change, without sonic con-
'cession being made on the part of the Pope as to his absolute
right of investiture of Bishops, Archbishops, and all the lower
classes of Catholic Clergymen into their respective livings,—
Would the [louse feel disposed to go the length of voting at die
rate of 1,0001. a year to the Bishops, and 14001. a year to the
Archbishops of this Church, without a change taking place in
this respect, so as to affbrd a security as to the right of investiture
by the Pope ? rie did nut mean to state this as an insuperabledif-
ficulty ; but he meant to say. that the two measures should go to.
gether, the provision and the security, as it were pari paws. He
confessed, for these reasons, he was sorry to find that this ques-
tion had been mixed up with the Catholic Relief measure, be.
cause he felt it would unavoidably prove an obstacle, from its
general unpopularity. It .was remarkable that the :piscopa-
lian Clergy of the Church of Scotland had no regular provision
_whatever made for them by the Legislature. It was in itself
• sufficient to render the proposed provision for the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy unPopular ; that they would in this case derivetheir
support from taxes levied for thepurpose whilst hitherto they had
each been maintained by their respective parishes. He more than
all deplored the precipitation with which this measure was at-
tempted to be forced at this moment on the House, without ma-
turely weighinx its consequences: it went to give a qualified eats.
blish men t to the Catholic Clergy in preference to the Clergy of the
Protestant Diasenters, which appeared to him to be decidedly op.
posed to the principles of the Revolution. He begged to be under-
stood on this occasion as not having said one word On the ins.
propriety.
.or propriety of this arrangement or provision for the
Catholic Clergy. If the Catholic Relief Bill was carried into
effect and conceded°, then it would still be a matter of grave
consideration for the Legislature, before it determined on its
expediency or inexpediency. Finally, lie felt convinced that
the House was proceeding with very blameable precipitation,
if it now sanctioned that which he could not be induced to
think was at all occeSiary to render effectual the political con-
cessions moved for by the lion. Baronet's Bill; and though
not desirous to excite any alarm on die subject, he could not
help fearing that the House would yet have to regret the preci-
pitation.
Mr. C. W. WYNNE was not prepared to say that the
two subjects of legislation alluded to by his Right Ho-
nourable Friend were so inseparably connected that one might
not pass without the other. 'Bet he thought this measure
decidedly a measure of policy, and that its being now passed
would remove some of the obstacles interposed to the pass-
ng of the other Bill through both Houses of Parlia-
ment. In thinking thus, lie knew that he thought with
some of the highest authorities on the subject of the
Catholic Claims—namely, Mr. Pitt and the late Lord
Londonderry. Mr. Pitt, above twenty years ago, had
stated in his place that a provision for the Catholic Clergy was
the security, and the only security, which the House could look
to with confidence in case it conceded the measure of general
political relief. He thought that security was the best which
did not depend on assurances as to religious tenets, but in mak-
ing,
the Catholic Priesthood this link and connection between'
the government of the country and the Catholic population.—
( Hear !)—Twenty years ago it had been asked, if mere Catholic
Emancipation would reconcile the differences in Ireland with-
out any accompanying securities? He admitted that if the re-
solution before them were passed it might be highly necessary
to r!fer the subject to a Select Committee to examine the subject
closely in its detail: for instance, it would be desirable in pro-
viding for the salaries of the Bishops to restrict foreigners being
appointed to fill these bishopricks by the Court of Rome.—
Though it was just that die clergy should give up the incomes
they now possessed in case this Bill passed, yet it would not be
desirable they should be restrained from taking fees on the per-
formance of those duties for which the Protestant Clergy are
uniformly paid fees. It was said, why was not the provision
extended to the Dissenters of Ireland generally ? Ile would
answer, because the :genie political necessity did not exist for
the concession. Recollecting perfectly what was the political
condition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland,. their numbers,
anti the exasperating influence on their minds in consequence of
the galling remains of the old Penal Code, he could not but
agree that there was a pressing necessity for this provision,
which did not exist as respected the Dissenters. The greater
the power, which might possibly become ill-affected or adverse,
the greater the necessity for the change taking place imme-
diately. He remarked, he said, with pleasure, that there was
no disposition to interfere with the House by petitions as to its
determination on this point, which lie could not but consider a
favourable symptom of the state of the public mind, as being
completely satisfied to confide the adjustment of this important
measure to the wisdom of the Parliament. Under these encou-
raging circumstances, therefore, he felt himself justified in giv-
ing the resolution his cordial support.
Mr. R. MARTIN said, that he was able to state, from the
most intimate acquaintance with all the Catholic Hierarchy,
that they were wholly disinclined to receive any stipend from
Government.—(Hear !)—He believed that the Catholic Clergy
thought the Bill would. not pacify the country, and it was un-
necessary.t
at
htlee'y,h
would
receivedoCual Catholic olloi a
ssc
mucher Clergy, ;y noi r
-f
fromep theeos ue present
et
S.
The Catholics did not originate the measure, but
At
more from the voluntary grant of the people than they would
itfithueaeyrnorcseeec
oefiv'rle,oeri
dot
anyepmesotbippelreesn.
do f t
he
receive under tho Bill. He, however, would support the Bill,
and his reason was, to take away a great reproach from the
Protestants.—(Hear !)—He consented to the measure in justice
himself.—(hear!)
Mr. S. RICE requested the indulgence of the House for a
very short period. His reason for supporting
flag vote was
because the Catholic Clergy was more powerful than any
other class of Dissenters, and because the Catholic people
were poor, and unable to pay their Clergy. All relief ought to
be carried home to the poor of Ireland, and
this measure would
be a practical relief to them. He' wished to see the influence
the Catholic Clergy prolonged and well directed. He wished
to see Christianity taught to every class in Ireland. The ex-
treme poverty of the lower classes excluded them from the
common benefits of Christianity. Some of the most dangerous
combinations in Ireland tad been directed against the dues
exacted for the Clergy. ,lie did not, however, by paying
A stipend to the Catholic Clergy wish to make them depend-
ent upon the Government. It would make the Government too
strong, and the 'influence of the- Clergy too weak. Yet it
was his desire to make the Clergy look to Government and
Parliament with affection and respect. The Ilegium Dunum

3lr. CREEVEV was sensible of the wretched state of the

Roman Catholic Clergy, and had no objection to, provision'.
being made for that body, but to pay them out of the property'
of the Protestants of England, he never would consent. if
they were to be provided for, it ought to be out of the Church .
Establishment of Ireland. Let them settle the mode among
themselves. He would never vote for paying a Catholic Priest
one shilling out of the pockets of Protestants in England. Thr •
Hon. Member concluded by saying he should give a conscien-
tious vote against the resolution.
Mr. BROUGH AM did not wish to occupy the time of the
House. He felt after a long debate, and at the end of a week, •

that Gentlemen might be excused for expressing itnpatience.---,
(A cry of hear !)—And he assured an Honourable Gentleman,
who agreed with him in exclaiming hear ! that he would not
detain him from his wished for rest, which the Honourable
Member had deserved by much watching, or much sleeping.—
(A laugh.)—He felt it necessary in justice.to his own cokaii-
tency, to state shortly the grounds on which he voted fox the
question. He felt difficulty about the' (loci:thin. It was one
within a narrow compass, from the time Mr,. Fox brought the-
Catholic Question forward_ twenty years ago, he had never
heard it- -discussed without an admission that something for

the Clergy must be done. They had gone through the 'great
question before they came to this, and finding it to be one on
which his mind had been long made up, he should give his vote-
for it. He was not called upon to consider the condition of
the Catholic Church. The Resolution only proposed that
some provision be made for the Roman Catholic Priests..
He had felt alarm lest there should be any increase of the pa-
tronage
of the Crown. All that anxiety was, however;
removed, for there was no unconstitutional and
dangerouos
augmentation of that power proposed. lie should consider this
power of the nomination of Priests if conferred on the Crown,
dangerous. The sum to be given was about the amount paid
to the Presbyterian Clergy, and he readily voted the moneY to
the Catholic Priests because they were instructors of, the po-
pulation. He could not admit that every sect of Plueutert '
ought to receive money from the Government. If they were
to support all sects, they might pay the followers of Joannati
Southcote, who believe in Shiloh, and who consist of twelve •
persons. Nothing conld be more dangerous to the Catholl4
question than to admit that the allowance was given as a sects-
nty. Ile denied that security was necessary, because if they
once admitted security ought to be taken, there was proof of.
the existence of danger.—(Hear !)—lie would not allow there
was any danger in granting the Catholic Claims. If the rues-
' sure should pass, security wOuld be found in the hearts of tb
Irish people.
Mr. PLUNKETT said he should not detain the House-fiv,s,
minutes. He rose merely to make' one observation, and
he did not think it of importance, he should not have trou-
bled them at that late hour of the night. Ile concurred in
almost every thing that had fallen from his Honourable,
and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham), and particularly in
his last observation, that this was not to be considered 114
a security. It was not dealing fairly with it to look at
it in that point of view. But it would allay the apprehen
sions of some who apprehended danger to the Protest-*
ant Establishment in Ireland. He begged of the House to:
attend to the observation of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last
but one—(Mr. Creevey)—he did not blame the Hon. Member
—he spoke his sentiments distinctly and manfully. The 110.°
10--
Gentleman seemed fully sensible of the evil of allowing six ".
lions to remain without the means of adequate instruction, but 11"
objected to the mode of payment. Ile said the provision shoula
come from the funds of the Established Church. Now the ad—
vantage of this measure was, that it would be an answer to those
who said it was most unfair that the Protestant Clergy should
be supported from tithes paid by the Roman Catholics. n'''"s'
cause, if the Roman Catholic made such an objection, would
they not have here a direct answer—might they not say, we.
the Protestants, contribute to the maintenance of your church.
Those, therefore, who might be alarmed about the effect 4-,
concession on the Established Church in Ireland, should fee'
that this measure would operate as a buttress to support it.
The House having divided, the numbers were, for the
Original motion -
Against it
. •
- 205
162

Majority - 43
Mr. HERRIES, upon the part of Mr. Hosmssox, osire
notice, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would, on next goni
day, state' to the House certain Resolutions respecting W
at present in bond.
The other OnnElls of the DAY were then disposed of, ilnd
the House adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK.

LIST OF THE MINORITY
Of 47, on Mr. W. 'Whitmore's Motion for a Committee of the
Whole House to consider of the Corn Laws.—April 28-
Althorp, Visct. Gurney, R. H. , Sefton, Earl of
Baring, A. Hume, J. Sykes, D. * •
Bentinck, Lord W. Heron, Sir R. • Smith, W. -6.,
Bernal, R. Hobhouse, J. C. Tierney, Rt. Ml'
Buxton, T. F. James, W. Thompson, V • ,
Bright, Henry Littleton, E. Wood, Alderroa
Calcraft, J. Leader, W. Wilson, T.
Calcraft, J. H. Lester, B. L. Wortley, J. S.
Cradock, S. Moberly, W. L. Williams, .1-
Calthorpe, Hon. F. Maxwell, J. - Williams, W-
Calthorpe, Hon. A. Milton, Viscount Wilson, Sir.B-
Corbett, Panton Monck, J. B. . TELLEUS*
Calvert, . C. Nugent, Lord Gascoyne, J. ,
Davies, T. 11. Phillips, G. Whitmore, Ni •
Denman, T. Palmer, C. F. ' PAIRED Orr.
Evans, William Robinson' Sir Geo. Mansfield, J-
Grenfell, P. Robarts, W. A. Pares, T.
Glenorchy, Vise. Robarts, G. J. ' Wyvill, M.

Ue
It k stated that the Bank of Ireland is ab°
to establish a Branch Bank at Waterford, and that the 10°I;c1
of SCOTT and Co., will have the direction. We underso_
the formation of the branch in our city has been already Prot
ductive of great advantages to commercial men, exclusive, to
the benefit derivable front the reduction of the rate of interlted.
four per cent. The direction here could scarcely be count“ing
to Gentlemen more likely to promote the welfare of the trail Ire-
the community than those in whose hands it has been placed
the selection of Mr. POPE, as Law Agent to the Bank °Ltok
land for this city and district, is no less creditable to the m
Directors.--(Cork Paper.)

INCENDIARIES.—The final examination of the,
Rees's, father and son, charged with the late outrageou4 :ea
tempts at Bishop's Storford, took place on Wednesday, Till.
the father was discharged, and the son fully committed for