The Sun.
London, England, 1849-05-01 00:00:00

duals evicted in each case, and all other particulars of
said notices, was in the hands of the Government?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE replied that he Ind not yet
received them.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND)—RATE IN AID.

On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Captain JONES moved that it bo read a third time
Lhat day six months.
Sir J. WALSH considered that the measure would. be
as pernicious in its tendency as it was insufficient
in its provisions. He would not enter at any
length into those statistical details which would clearly
prove the utter inefficiency end inadequacy
of the rate
which it WAS intended to raise, and which, in cense
quence of the principle that it involved, was so repug-
nant to the feelings, common sense, and justice
of the people of Ireland, who were struggling against
the distress and difficulties of the times, and who were
scarcely able to support themselves. Neither would he,
at any length, press upon the attention of the House
that most painful consideration which naturally at:
taciaed to this measure its unavoidable tendency'
to alienate the affections of the most loyal
porticn of the population of that country.
This measure had bean forced upon the House against
their conviction, and the most str,nuous opposition of
the majority of the Irish Members composed of men of
every shade and complexion of' political feeling ;
and it was forced on them under the idea that
England was to acquire some undefined benefit from
its
own on Ireland the maintenance of
own poor. That did appear to him to be a
state of things, an exercise of power on the part of that
House which must necessarily furnish a strong argument
to those persons who had disturbed the vice of that
country, and who had alienated the feelings of the people
of Ireland from this country in reference to the Uni
After all the melancholy details which had been laid be
fore the House of the lamentable distress in the unions
of the south and west of Ireland, he still did entertain
very considerable doubts as to the urgent necessity
which had been so strongly pressed upon the House,
and which was in fact the sole argument with which her
Majesty's Ministers had met the opposition to this mea-
sure. He did acknowledge that great and lamentable
end very general distress did prevail in those districts
in Ireland; he did not deny the failure of the potato
crop, which was the staple food of the people, had
created a very lamentable degree of distress in that
country; but they were now giving out-door relief with •
out accompanying it with any practical test whatever of
the destitution of the recipients; they were thus
opening the door to every species of abuse. It was
impossible not to feel the greatest conviction that side by
side, purl. paean, to the vast amount of real distress,
destitution, and poverty in that country, there was at
the same time on all sides, in every one of those unions,
a vast amount of fraud and imposture, to which
their present system applied no adequate corree •
open, a nel
think h
that the
at
that
tive whatever. Wherever out-door relief had
been applied, they found the workhouse teat
had failed in consequence of the number of occu-
pants, that the gates were thrown
whole population were thrown upon the rates, who
might perfectly well maintain themselves, and
the censequence was, that
grounds
he
to whole
machi-
nery which they had devised had entirely broken down.
aA
betterot her
administrationreas n lvhich g gave t
e him,e
poor-law would be effis
eacious, was the remarkable contrast that existed be
teeen the state of the different districts of Ireland,
though apparently under and affected by the same cir
cumstances. It had been shown to the Committee tha.
had sat upon this subject that a great difference existed
between Donegal and Clare—indeed, there was a mate-
rial difference between the condition of unions in Donegal,
affected by the same circumstances, though they were
side by side. One union in Donegal had been frequently
mentioned. It was affected like its neighbours, yet it had
been able to go on with out-doorreliet; whilst its neigh•
hours had been drawn into the vortex. Tl.ese and other
things had confirmed him in his opinion, that it was
most unwise to apply to such a country as Ireland so
limited a poor-law. He blamed the system of appoint-
ing vice-guardians to manage the affairs of a union, be-
cause they were not versed in the multifarious duties
they were called upon to discharge. Ireland was just
one of those cases to which they must apply exceptional
deeds; whatever was applicable to ordinary affairs was
not applicable to Ireland.
Lord CASTLEREAGH regretted that he was not in
the House in time to move that this measure should be
read a third time that day six months. He thought the
Government had placed Z 'Hon. Members in an unfair po-
sition, for it had reduced them to the alternative
of either submitting to the provisions of the Bill, or
the obnoxious impost of an income-tax. The Noble
Lord then proceeded to quote from a number of returns,
wi.h the view of showing that. Ireland was at present
income-tax nor a rate in aid.—(Hear, hear.)
Clare has repaid Is. 10p. in the loan to Government ;
overtaxed, and could bear neither . the burden of an
Iu Mayo the
suf-
fered a rate of 14s. Bd. in, the pound.
; in Kerry they were las. 6d. ; iu
rates were 17s. rqd.
and yet with all that imposition,. the county had
all these statements he had not pressed at all. upon the
and in Limerick, 15s. Now in
the difficulties which were likely to accrue from
the course which they were pursuing. Did
rGeasiol'arYce'slso3f. 6thed.c;ountry ; he had simply pointed ou•
they want new reasons, let them look to
the north of Ireland. What was the case there?
In Belfast the poor-rate was 20s. Bd. in the pound. In
Roscommon it was 20s. in the pound. He sup-
posed therefore that if they had another value
tion, there would be the same evils, only with
the exception that they would be largely enhanced.
He had only ono other observation to make, and he
would address himself to the English and Irish Mem-
bers of tho House, and when he spoke of Irish Members
ho could not fail to remark that very few of them had
assisted in flat so debates.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
know where they had gone, or what they were about, but
certainly, very few of them had appeared in these de-
bates.—(Hear, hear.) Ho would ask, were they dis-
posed to act upon the strict principles of justice 2
(Hear, bear.) Or were they determined to push for the
thepo Fpundroing
of flesh
they were, the responsibility would be upon them. He
would act venture to talk to the House of Commons in
water?--(Hear,
e flesh,r( or
te toa r drabie a r iron
o it
m
a tone which was disrespectful, but lie would remind the
Ministry that there was such a'thing as rashness in un-
dertaking that which might be incompatible to
the national eh aracter.—(Hear, ar.) He would
remind them that there was such an aphorism
which, if freely rendered, and he might cite, said " that
angels fear to tread where cowards yet rush in." . lle
did not mean, far be it from him, to impute such a sup-
position to men like her Majesty's' Ministers ; he did not
mean to impute to them anything like inconsideration or
imprudence. If their foreign relations were not. so
satisfactory, and their colonial policy was in diffi-
culty, in what position would they be in when
theyimposed further taxes upon an unwilling arid over-
burdened people? Ireland was prepared to pour out its
heart's blood for the weal of the nation—it was prepared to
dothat which had taken place upon the plains of Belgium,
the valleys of Spain, the shores of China, and more re-
cently on the distant banks of the Hydaspes.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had risen in consequence
of the distressing accounts which had been received from
Ireland, and to reply to some observations which had
been made by the Honourable Member for Montrose.
The sum of 50,0001. was now entirely exhausted; and
the accounts from tho Poor-law Commissioners re-
presented that the destitution was increasing. With
those accounts before them, and considering that if ever
the House agreed to the third residing this evening
some time must elapse before the Bill could be taken into
the consideration of the other House of Parliament, hedid
not think that the House would be justified in placing
any limit on the sum previously agreed to be advanced,
but to issue such a sum as they might find, from the ac-
counts which they received, would be absolutely neces-
sary to mitigate and prevent the destitu-
tion which prevails. With regard to theh
latter part of the Noble Lord's speech,
threatening them with the effects that that rate
should in
would produce in Ireland, he (Lord J. Russell)
_ e.
not be alarmed, because he had happened to
le_c receive a
most excellent letter from Lord Londonderrt lear)
• Ireland would offer no resistance to
that his tenantry in
the measure, in the event of its passing into a law.
Lord CASTLEREAGH—No, for they will all be
gone to America.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL--Then their resistance would
not be very formidable.—(Laughter.) He would now
ask the house to ogre() to the grants of 6,0001. to relieve
the distress in Ireland, the money that was in hand for
that purpose having been exhausted.
Mr. BANKES said the representatives of England had
a right to see that there was a security for the money
that was asked, but they found there was no security.
There was no security for the payment of the money
even at a distant period, butit was an early payment
which they had a right to look to when they
remembered the exigencies of England.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought the Irish Members should give security for
the repay ment of the advances that it would now be
necessary to make.
Mr. .13. COCIIRANE said all the measures
of the Government of Ireland had proved to
be empty and scanty measures. He had not
seen any large end comprehensive measures
brought forward. When the vote of 10,000,000/. was
proposed, be said it was fallacious, because the sinews
of a nation were industry—the sinews of men—and that
whilst they were wanting no grants of money could be be-
neficial. The Government had proposed nothing like a
great measure; and unless the Government did better, a •
justifiable cry would be raised up for the repeal of
the Union. The loss of Ireland would detract from
the dignity of England; but there were two things
to be considered —this loss of dignity, and the
starvation of the people. He confessed that un-
less a real panacea was applied, and the measure
before the House was not of that character, ho should be
disposed to vote for the repeal of the Union.
Mr. P. SCROPE said that he thought security ought
to be taken from the unions for any advance that might
be made to them, and that the able-bodied paupers
should be employed upon the waste lands, which would
he applying them to productive labour. By employing
them in useful labour, they would have a return for what
they might advance to alleviate the distress of the coun-
try, which would be the true policy to be adopted.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said the money expected to be
raised by the rate in aid would not meet the difficulties
in the county May o, where the people were without
clothes, without houses, and without employment, artd
the best part of the population emigrating from the
country. He wanted the public money to be expended
on works which would stimulate the employment of the
people. He considered the rate in aid unconstitutional,
and should oppose it.
Mr. GRATTAN said, that he had receive:l lott.:T!,
to,na Ireland, informing him that distress was eprteeiitw
in all dila ctioe, Is was not a inernster they wauted iu
Ireland, but a baker, or an undertaker. There were six-
teen millions of quarters of corn grown in Ireland last
year, wording to the report of Captain Larkin. If