The Sun.
London, England, 1838-09-05 00:00:00

ST. SAVIOUR'S, SOUTHWARK.

Yesterday morning an adjourned Vestry was held in the
Vestry-room of St. Saviour's, Southwark, for the purpose of
receiving the report of the Auditors on the late Wardens' ac-
counts, and also for making aiChurch-rate for the year ensuing.
Mr. RAYMOND, the Warden of the Great Account, in.
Mr. JOAN
the chair.
Mr. CARPENTER SMITH, the Vestry Clerk, having read the
andupon the question being put that they do pass,
reploirrt,
EMBLETON said there was one item in the ac-
counts LUKE
of the Great Warden which he objected to, that was,
of the two Clergymen the sum of 391. 75. for jute.'
of pa) ing
rest on their back salaries.
Mr. Henn, the late Great Warden, considered that the
Reverend Gentlemen were entitled to it. They had been
kept out of their salaries for two years, and it must be consi.
dered that it was money. lent.
Mr. EMBLETON considered it was a bad precedent, for on
the same principle, every person who had not been paid was
entitled to interest. There were many other items which
he objected to, but from the short time the account had
been laid on the table, he was not prepared to enter into them.
Mr. WYLD said that in 1803, when the parish was in debt
to him for a considerable time, he never came for interest,
and he should therefore second the motion that the item be
struck out. He recollected when an Act of ParNament was
smuggled through the House of Commons to increase the
salaries of the clergymen, and with that they ought to be
satisfied.
Mr. Ews remarked that he was astonished that Mr.
Wyld's memory should be so bad. The two clergymen were
obliged to go to Parliament to get something like a salary,
and the House of Commons, on being put in possession of the
mode in which these gentlemen were paid, increased their
salaries to 3001. a-year. With respect to the interest, he
thought they were entitled to it. They had been kept out of
it for nearly two years, and what Mr. Herd had done certainly
met his approbation.
Mr. Cox observed that as Mr. Herd bad offered the clergy-
men their salaries every quarter, they ought to refund the
amount handed over to them for interest.
B. THORNTON, Esq.—ln that case, then, we should have
been bound to pay our late Warden interest for his money.
After a long discussion, in which Mr. Blacket, Mr. Ray-
mond, and others joined, the question was put, when there
appeared for the motion that the item be struck out, 13 ;
and that it be allowed, 40; consequently, the amendment was
lost.
Mr. Euts then rose for the purpose of proposing a rate for
the service of the church for the year ensuing.
Mr. N. PEGG seconded the motion.
Mr. ENIELEDON moved, as an amendment, that a rate of 3d.
in the pound be made. Two years ago, when a church-rate
was refused, the supporters of the church only asked for a
fourpenny one, and if that was then sufficient, surely a three-
penny one would cover all the expenses which the Wardens
were called on to pay.
The CHAIRMAN said he thought he could do with a seven-
penny or an eightpenny rate.
Mr. Wynn mos ed that instead of a threepenny rate a six-
penny one should be proposed.
A long discussion which, although highly interesting to the
parties concerned, was not of a public nature, took place
upon the subject, which ended by the question being put,
when there appeared on a show of hands for the sixpenny rate,
31 ; kr the nine penny rate, 42 ; majority, 11.
The vestry then proceeded to some local business; after
which it broke up

Between
Mary Andrews,
and six o'clock yesterday morning
Airs.
the wife of a respectable tradesman
residing' at No. 94, lfred-street, Bedford-square, expired at
the University Colle.e Hospital, from the effect of having
StNallowed an ounce 'Of laudanum, with the intention of com-
mitting suicide. The unfortunate deceased took the poison
on Thursday last at her own liGrne, and on her situation being
discovered she was re.noved to the hospital, where every
possible assistance was afforded her, but the poison had sunk so
deeply into the system that nothing could obviate its deadly
effect. The deceased was 23 years of age. The cause of
her destroying herself is said to have been jealousy.

PRICE sd.

LIMITED AND UNIVERSAL

SUFFRAGE.

(From the Scotsman.)
The cry raised by a section of the working classes for
Universal Suffrage is but the revival of a demand which has
been often made, and will always be repeated from time to
time. That such suffrage would be pernicious to the interests
not only of the upper and middle classes, but to those who are
so loudly calling for its adoption, we have no doubt. It is,
however, a fair and legitimate subject for public discussion.
There is an infinity of gradations between absolute des-
potism and perfect liberty; but, looking at the subject in a
practical point of view, there are three well-marked varieties
in the structure of Governments which merit the epithet of free.
The first is that under which the people merely enjoy free.
dom of discussion. Of this we bad an excellent example in
the oligarchy of Britain before the passing of the Reform Bill.
The two Houses of Parliament were filled by the chiefs and
creatures of the aristocracy ; and the privilege just admitted
of such a small infusion of popular men as secured free dis-
cussion. Till the debates were reported this privilege was of
little avail ; for though the press was nominally unfettered, it
was intimidated by prosecutions before packed juries, where
convictions were easily obtained, and were followed by heavy
penalties. But when the boldest denunciations of the mea-
sures of Government, uttered in either House, were regularly
published, the press could not be prevented from making a
better use of its censorial powers, and the speakers at
public meetings naturally assumed a bolder tone. Our Go-
vernment was then a mixture of the three forms, though
not in the sense described by De Lolme. The control
and maaagement of public matters was substantially in the
hands of the oligarchy ; but the King came in for a share by
acting as umpire between the factions of the Ins and Outs.
Upon this combination of the Crown and the boroughmongers
Bentham bestowed the appropriate designation of" Corrupter-
General and Co. 1" The third element, Democracy, did exist
in the country, but not where courtly writers professed to find
it. It existed in our free press, in the right of petition, and in
the right to hold public meetings for the discussion of griev-
ances. The House of Commons was as much the organ of
the Aristocracy as the House of Peers. It served the De-
mocracy, indeed, but merely as a forum, to sustain and pro-
pagate the privilege of free discussion. It was a Court :n
which the people had the power to plead their wrongs pub-
licly, but its decisions were under the control of others.
Their voice was always heard less or more; but always over-
borne, except in so far as the Government was now and then
shamed out of some gross abuse by exposure, and now and
then abandoned some odioos measure from a remote dread of
convulsion.

The second form of free government is that in which the
Legislature is returned by an electoral body, limited in num-
bers, but large enough to embrace the interest of all classes.
It was the object of the Reform Bill to bring our Government
into this condition, and it would have succeeded if the free-
men of the English boroughs, belonging chiefly to the class
now calling for Universal Suffrage, had not been steeped in
corruption. We grant that the exclusion of the Ballot, and
the 501. tenants-at-will in the counties, were serious errors ;
but had the freemen of the English boroughs done their duty
like the 10/. householders there would have been a sufficient
force in the House of Commons, not only to rectify all over-
sights and mistakes, but to subdue the insolence of the Peers,
and give full effect to the principles of our new charter. If
the Tories, therefore, are still powerful, and if the Reform
Bill has only worked half the good expected from it, the cause
must be sought mainly in the profligacy and mercenary spirit of
that portion of the Constituency which belongs in great part to
the workit4 classes.
In a limited electoral body the objects should be to put the
franchise into the hands of those who are most intelligent and
most deeply interested in the general weal. An unexception-
able test of these qualifications cannot be found; but the best
within our reach is property. It would be absurd to deny that
the man who has accumulated a hundred pounds—whether in
money, land, goods, or household furniture—has a greater stake
in the well-being of society than the wayfarer or " landless
resolute," who relies solely on the day's labour for the day's
subsistence. He has also the best chance to be tolerably in-
formed ; for it is money that opens all the avenues to know-
ledge, whether it is found in schools, in lecture-rooms, in books,
or in journals. If he should happen to be very ignorant, his
property is a guarantee that he will not listen to doctrines
which would destroy or endanger the property of others.
But by what outward mark shall we ascertain the existence
of property, the shapes of which are so various ? In our own
country the mark most universally applicable, on a large scale,
is house-rent. Experience proves this to be a good criterion
in towns; and we think it is matter of regret that it was not
adopted in counties too. In France the direct taxes, which
yield three-fifths of the public revenue, afford a still surer indi-
cation of property, because they effectually preclude the cre-
ation of fictitious claims. Indeed the French qualification is,
in our opinion, the very best that can be contrived, and it has
this advantage, that it will apply to a constituency of two mil-
lions as accurately as to one of two hundred thousand.
If the electoral body is so composed as not to be the organ
of any special interest, but to embrace all interests, the Legis-
lature chosen by it will watch over the good of the whole people
as faithfully and as impartially as if it had been returned by the
suffrages of all the grown men in the kingdom. It will be as
honest, and probably more enlightened ; for the select consti-
tuency necessarily includes a larger proportion of intelligence.
Now, apart, from the abuses engendered by fraud and cor-
ruption, for which Universal Suffrage would be no remedy,
we hold the present electoral body to be so far identified in
interest with all orders of the community as to afford a reason-
able guarantee for fair legislation. It is true that it includes
but a few of the working classes, who may be said to be
rather virtually than actually represented ; but how can a line
be drawn between the interest of these and that of the mid-
dle classes, who compose three-fourths of the whole elec-
tors ? The great mass of the enfranchised cannot be instru-
mental in passing a law or imposing a tax which will injure
the unenfranchised without prejudicing themselves at the same
time. Take the Corn-laws as an example, which were
passed by the old boroughmonger parliament. They
are as hurtful to the middle classes as the lower; and
though a run 'of good seasons, and the engrossing interest
of other great questions have diverted public attention from
them, it is certain that, when the pressure of high
prices shall stimulate the electoral body to throw off its apathy,
it will raise its voice energetically against them. In this apa-
thy, which has kept the question in abeyance, we believe the
working classes have participated. Does any one believe that
such Acts as the old Combination Act, or that which prohibited
a mechanic from leaving the kingdom, could now be passed ?
It is true the landholders are still strong enough to encroach
on the interests of the other classes ; but it is certain that they
would be weaker if Universal Suffrage enabled them to march
the whole rural population to the poll.
The third variety of government is that in which all classes
of men are directly represented, and of course it supposes Uni-
versal Suffrage. This system is exemplified in the United
States, and is the best of all, when the conditions exist which
render it safe ; these are, either the universal diffusion of intel-
ligence, or the universal diffusion of property. When a man
is sufficiently enlightened to understand fully the consequen-
ces of his political acts, the interests of society will generally,
be safe in his hands, though he be poor, even if this in-
telligence were not in itself a security against extreme
poverty. On the other hand, when a man holds property he
may be trusted with political power though ignorant, because
his property gives him a stake in the peace and good order of
the community. He may not clearly see the path of duty in
every instance, but the instinct of self-interest will supply the
place of knowledce to some extent, and guard him against
engaging in rash and dangerous schemes. The conditions
which render universal suffrage unsafe are ignorance and
poverty in the mass of the working classes, a great preponde-
rance in their cumbers, and great accumulations of wealth in
the hands of individuals, enabling the rich to buy the votes of
the poor. None of these unfavourable circumstances exist in
the United States to mar the progress of their beautiful de-
mocracy. The people are better educated than any other
under the sun ; two-thirds of the adults are proprietors, while
most of the others have the prospect of becoming so ; and
even the lowest class of labourers are in easy circumstances.
Lastly, the rich are too few in number to produce any effect
by purchasing the votes of the poor if they were purchaseable.
Universal Suffrage is the final term towards which all free
Governments will advance as knowledge increases; but the
approaches to it should be gradual. The franchise, when
once conceded to any large class, cannot be again withdrawn,
and an error on this side is therefore irreparable. Nor is
there any reason for incurring the risk of violent change;
for as we have already shown, limited suffrage, constituted on
proper principles, may afford an honest and enlightened re-
presentation. It must be kept in mind that the working
classes constitute two-thirds of the population. If they all
possessed the franchise, and if their recent efforts to organise
themselves into great combinations were to succeed, they
would be able to return an overwhelming majority of the
House of Commons, and in effect to legislate for the whole
nation. Few sober men we think would consider it safe to
place the power of disposing of the entire property of the
country in the hands of those who have none ; and what
chance for justice, may we ask, would the manufacturers of
Britain have in Parliament which was the organ of trades'
unions ? This argument would hold good under any circum-
stances, but the deplorable ignorance and mischievous preju-
dices prevalent among the lower classes of England espe-
cially lend it tenfold force at present.

Last evening an inquest was held at the Black
Horse Tavern, Kingsland.road, on the body of David Ellis, a
youth of i 7 years of age, who terminated his existence by
hanging himself. From the evidence of the mother of the
deceased, who gave her testimony under much affliction, it ap-
peared that the deceased, who was an engineer, had been
much depressed for the last fortnight, in consequence of
being out of employment and his clothes being in pledge.
On Saturday evening last he had been to a skittle ground in
the neighbourhood, when he got intoxicated, and went
.up
stairs, as his mother thought, to bed ; but on the following
morning he was found susoendcd by his handkerchief and
aver-
diet
dead. The jury, after hearing other evidence, returned
of " Temporary Insanity."