The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT•

ROUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 20.

Lord BOLTON took tl e o-the and hiss seat.
Lord KINNOULL presented a petition from the Free
boilers, Justices of Peace, and Commissioners of Supply.
of the county of Perth, against she measure now before
Parliament, on the subject of Reform.
Lord SUFFIELD presented nearly 500 petitions from
different parts of the country agaiirt slavery.
Lord AUCKLAND presented 132 petitions to the same
tffect.
Sir A. GRANT and others, from the Commons, brought
up the Duchy of Cornwall Leases Bill, the Colonial Inter-
course Bill, and some Private Bills.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented several
petit' ons from Castle Bayou d against Reform.
The Duke of GORDON presented petitions from Elgin
and Ross against the Reform
Earl GREY presented petitions in favour of the Reform
Bill from Carnarvon, Fife, Reigate, Hastings, and sigh
other places.
The Earl of lIADDINGTON presented petitions Iron,
Edinburgh against Reform.
THE TIMES NEWSPAPER.

Lord KING—My Lords, I have a petition to present
to your Lordships from the gentleman who was at the bat
of the House yesterday—l mean Mr. Lawson, the printer
of the Times newspaper, who is now in custody under
your Lordships' order. I move that the iretition be now read.
The petition was read by one of the clerks of the House
as follows :

TO THE RIGHT HON. THE LORDS SPIRITUAL AND

TEMPORAL.
" 'The huinble petition of John Joseph Lawson, the printer of
the Times, now in custody.
showeth,—That your petitioner feels the sincerest regret at
having given offence to your Right Hon. House, and to the Earl
of Limerick in particular, and craves pardon for the same; and
humbly begs, in consequence of this acknowledgment of his
error, and regret, he may he set at liberty by your Right Hon.
House.

" And your petitioner will ever pray.
JOHN JOSEPH LAWSON."

The Earl of LIMERICK—My Lords, I know not whe-
ther it is necessary for me, after what I have already said
on a previous occasion, again to repeat that in bringing
forward this subject, I have been actuated by no personal
feeling or mo'ier. I did it merely on the ground of what
I considered a gross attack having been made through an
individual Member of it upon your Lordships' House by
the publication in question. Having so done, and your
Lordships having coins to the decision that the paragraph
complained of contained a gross libel on the individual
who has the honour to address you, I conceive that I
have done my duty towards your Lordships and myself.
I declared at the time of bringing this subject under
consideration that which I now repeat—namely, that I
sought not then (nor do I now) for the infliction of ally
severe punishment whatever upon the individual con-
cerned. I am, however, perfectly aware that for former
off noes of a nature similar to this, but inferior in point
of atrocity, very severe punishments have been inflicted.
My Lords, I can show that parties have been sent to New-
gate for three months for matters much lighter than the
present. There was put in my hands this morning a
paper containing two-precedents of very serious punish-
ments for breaches of privilege. The first case is that of
Flower (as we understood the Noble Earl to say, but can-
not he certain as to the name, on account of the low and
indistinct tone in which this part of the speech was de-
livered), and the other is the case of Mr. Perry, the
Editor of the Morning Chronicle. It occurred on the
21st and 22d of March; 1798. There was something
comical in this breach of privilege. I refer, of course,
to the tenni: of the libel, which arose under these circum-
stances :—Some oloeivations were made in the House of
Lords on the late hou:s at the Opera, and on the fact of the
an;usenients being sometimes continued so as to push them
into the Sunday mornine ; also upon the almost naked '
dresses of die ladies. In reference to this the Morning
chronicle made the following remarks :—" The House
of Lords must now be admitted to be highly important
as a political assembly, notwithstanding it has of late !
appeared to be nettling more than a chamber where the
Minister's edirte are re iistered for form's sake. Some of
their Lordship" are determined to vindicate their lin-
portance. It is there that the dresses of the opera.
dancers are regulated ! One of the Roman Emperors
lecurninended to the Senate, when they were good for no-
thing else, to discuss what was the best sauce for a turbot. '
To regulate the length of a petticoat is a much more gen- '
• teel employtnent." This paragraph having been brought
'limier the consideration of the House, was declared to he
a gross and scandalous libel, and a breach of the privileges
of the House ; and Mr. Perry, and Lambert the printer
of the paper, were committed to Newgate fur three 'rond,.
.My Lords, I merely mention this to show your Lordships
'what were the feelings and what the, conduct of the House
of Lords at that period referred to, in reference to facts
not nearly so cross as the present ; but at the same time
that I refer to the precedent, I have no intention to push
this question to au extremity of punishment, and whatever
your Lordships may decide in relation to it will be per-
fectly acceptable to me, knowing as I do that your deter-
mination will he guided by justice, temper, and moderation.
The Earl of MANSFIELD said be felt disposed to
move that tie petition do lie upon the table, and that it
be taken into further consideration to-morrow.
Lord KING—I am sorry that the Noble Earl has made
that observation. According to the feeling of the House
yesterday, when Air. Lawson was called to the bar (if be
bad not dec:.!ned to answer some questions put to him),
the souse to be pursued would have been to have had him
',prim aided and disclierged at that time. Following up
the course which the opinion of the House seemed yester-
day to dictate. I felt inclined to move that the petitioner
be now called to the bar, reprimanded, and discharged.
The Earl of MALISIESZUIti and Earl BATHURST FOSe tCe
gether : the former giving way, the latter Noble Lord
said two or three words, as well as wet could understand,
to the effect that lie wished the House to be cleated.
The Earl of MALMESBURY—I cannot approve of
the Noble Lord's suggestion, beciuse, so far from wishing
to conceal our proceedings from the public, I hardly con-
ceive it possible to give them sufficient publicity.—
(Cheers.) I ant one of those who are disposed to main-
tain your Lordeltips' privileges, but I feel conlideut that
our privileges can be better maintained by public than by
private discussions.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
proceeding to be adopted is this case, I bad a motion is
my band yesterday, that the printer be called to the bar,
reprimanded, and discharged. I propose that the Noble
Baron, who presented the petition, should make a like
motion to-morrow. It might be thought premature to
make it toolay, as many Lords, who were present yester-
day may not be prepared to entertain it at this tnoment.
Under all the circumstances of the case, I think it will be '
better for the Noble Lord to give notice of motion for to-
morrow.
Earl GREY—I entirely agree with my Noble Friend I
who spoke last, that when we are called on to consider a
case like the present, and to enter into the question of
privilege, there is considerable advantage in having our
proceedings more especially public. Let it be borne in
rutnd that in nicking this remark I by no moms say that
eases may not arise for proceeding with closed doors, but,
generally speaking, I am of opinion that in order effec-
tually to maintain the character, dignityomuLpriviteges of
the House, it is better for your Lordships to proceed with-
out any secrecy whatever.—(Hear.) I am the rather
anxious to lay down this principle, as in many cases of
privilege the House has been cleared, at the same time that
in others a contrary, and as I think a better, course has
been taken. In the case of a complaint of breach of
privilege arising a short time ago out of a message sent
by an indiVidual to a Noble Lerd, which message was in-
terpreted to be in the nature of a challenge. I objected to
the House being cleared, as was proposed, stating that I
thought it better that the proceedings should take place in
pirtiiite and accordingly they were so conducted. It was
upon the principle of expediency that in that (as in the
present case) I recommended that the orders of the House
for the exclusion of strangers should not be enforced.
With respect to what is to follow, I feel inclined towards
the course recommended by the Noble Earl opposite. My
Lords, I should feel inclined in the present case, taking
Into consideration all the circumstances of it, and recol-
lecting the Noble Earl's disposition not to enfotce any ex-
tsretete penalty (although he quoted examples of severity--
foe what purpose is it not for me to say), I say I should
feel
well contented to call Mr. Lawson to the bar imme-
diately, to have trim reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor,
and then discharged
fees. But paps PVt usual manlier, on payrnsut of
his
mity of opinion, ~anpiiire
fur
a view to conciliate unani-
may
beorbatrteeason stated by the Noble
Earl opposite, is
tion of the petition till toeinuerr °r w
f
to adjourn the considera•
a:ncaliithe underetending
that the motion be then agreedto
to the bar, and having hina repri dndgthe individuai
e for an offence
which he has acknowledged with an
expression
con-
trition and regret at its occurrence. eazut that of
there
will be no objection to the individual being then i
ed, and that the discussion may terminate here. lacharilP
en
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I confess, my
Lords, I did understand, from the course yesterday taken,
that it would be competent to any Noble Lord to deliver
his sentiments on this subject in the event of the presen-
tation of a petition, and to take the opportunity to state
whether in his opinion the punishment now proposed, or
a greater punislorent, should be inflicted. Lords,
when the resolution of the House
is, that this individual,
or the editor of the paper, has been guilty of a scandalous

libel, it appears to me that confinement for a short petiod
and a reprimand are but small punishments for the offence.
I am not the individual to urge a strong measure of pu
nishment, but I think it should he stated distinctly, that it
We are dispused•on the present occasion to allow the indi-
vi lual to escape with a small mark of our displeasure, still
f such practices be continued, and if the privileges anti
he dignity of the House be attacked in future, that we will
-lot be satisfied with the infliction of a light punishment,
'tut will take measures to bring forward the editor, and
ndividuale really guilty ; for I cannot believe that the per-
sun who appeared at the bar was the real author of the
libel. I say, my Lords, we must then proceed to dis-
cover and adequately punish the individual who masks
himself under tl e unfortunate man at the bar. I would
here observe, that if there are individuals con-
e, cted together for the purpose of writing such
ffensive paragraphs in this or any other papers, I
trust they will, if they have any feelings at all, sus-
tain bitter pangs within their minds, when, on this oc-
easion, they see. your Lordship reprimand their pub-
lisher and printer, who, perhaps, bast been merely obliged
to comply with ,the milers of his employers. My Lords,
when I saw the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack,
who I thought should have been a defender of your privi-
leges, rather than a supporter of their impugners,—when
I saw him last night placing himself between the House
and such an offender, for the purpose of shielding the lat-
ter, I really was almost disposed to believe that the Noble
and Learned Loud was acting as counsel for a defendant in
this proceeding.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, I rise to or-
der : at the same time I must say, that, personally, I
have no objection to the Noble Lord's course, PM little do
I dread its consequences. If I were the Noble Lord's
friend, I should dread the consequences to himself ; he is
perfectly at liberty, so far as I am concerned, to'go on and
make what exposition it may please him to make of me or
of himself to your Lordships. I care not one rush for
what the Noble Lord can. say,—he may go en with his
sarcasms, insinuations, and charges, as he pleases ; but I
would rather have the Noble Lord's charges than his insi-
nuations. I never use insinuations, I always bring direct
charges ; I would rather have the Noble Lord's open hos-
tility than his covert enmity. I am sure he is incapable
of persisting in insinuations—the Noble Lord has too
much honour and high mindedness for that; tl erefore, as
the Noble Lord has hinted something or nothing, I put
myself on my defence before your Lordships, and call upon
the Noble Lord to charge me with something.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I beg the Noble
and Learned Lord to believe that no one has a higher re-
spect for his great and splendid talents ; but with all his
logic, and talents, and oratory, the Noble and Learned
Lord shall not put me down, or prevent me from dis-
charging what I conceive to he my duty. The Noble
and Learned Lord's great abilities and acquiremeuts may
often enable him

.6 To make
The worse appear the better reason."
He possesses commanding eloquence which carries every
thing before it like a torrent, and an individual like myself
can have but little chance in an encounter with him ; but, '
pigmy as I am, I tell the Noble Lord, that neither he nor
any other person shall deter me from taking a proper
course. I shall now continue the observations 1 was about
to make when interrupted by the Noble and Learned
Lord ; and I must say, that I did expect the Noble and
Learned Lord to have taken a differet.t part on the occa-
sion in question. The Noble and Leatned Lord set out
last night will telling your Lordships that there was no
use in proceeding with the case ; but the House came to
a resolution, netnine contradicente, directly against the
Noble anti Learned Lord's recommendation. What was
the next step taken by the Lord Chancellor ? The Noble
and Learned Lord near me having propased fine and impri-
sonment, the. Chancellor again started up and opposed
a punishment which, for my own part, I think would
have been well imposed in the present instance. The
Lord Chancellor's opinion did weigh with your Lord-
ships, and the proposition was abandoned. What
I submit is, that the Noble and Learned Lord did
not take the part' which became him in reference
to the gross outrage committed on the feelings of the
Noble Earl, and against the privileges of the House.—
These are the sentiments which I was about to give utter-
ance to, when interrupted by the Noble anti Learned Lord,
and which lam not now ashamed to express. 1 shall now
observe that the unfortunate individual who was yesterday
at the bar, is nor, in my opinion, the person most worthy
of being visited with punishment. If the petition be
brought up, I shall move for a copy of the affidavit depo-
sited at the Stamp. office, and containing a list of the
names of the proprietors of the Times. I give 'notice of
my intention to move far this document to-morrow, and I
mean to have it produced, because I think we may thus
find individuals to tell us at the bar who the real writers
of those paragraphs are. Sure I am that Mr. John Joseph
Lawson is not one of the writers; lam convinced that in
this respect he is as innocent as myself. My Lords, I
have so far stated my sentiments on this subject, and when
the petition is brought up, er taken into fnrther considera-
tion, I shall also consider myself at full liberty to express
my opinion. I beg the Noble and Learned Lord to believe
that I am the last man in the world to fail in respect for
his great talents, but if he thinks to overwhelm me by
the torrent of his eloquence, he will find him.elf mistakeu.
I shall always stand up firmly for what I conceive to be
right.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I know not whether I
should not better consult your Lordships' feelings and my
own by taking no notice of what has been just uttered by
the Noble Lord, in one of the most extraordinary speeches
which I have ever beard ; but I am desirous of setting
myself right ith your Lordships, and with the Noble
Marquis whose indignation we have witnessed without
knowing the grounds of it. As for my reason for calling
the Noble Lord to order,—it being the first, as it may per-
haps be the last time in my life that I shall call any Noble
Lord to order under similar circumstances,—l do so be-
rause he saw fit to stigmatise the conduct of an individual
Peer, by saying that that individual had acted the part of
an advocate or counsel for an offender, at a time when that
offender was before him, as one of the Judges of the highest
Court in the kingdom.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—One word in ex-
planation. I meant to convey, and, indeed, said, that the
conduct of the Noble and Leat ned Lord was such as almost
to make me believe that the Noble and Learned Lord was
the advocate of a defendant.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—My Lords, able and
skilful orators, like the Noble Marquis, frequently have a
cunning way of rendering it difficult to get Ee their mean.
ing according to the known and ordinary acceptation of
the terms which they employ—(Hear, and laughter).—
they wrap up and mystify so successfully ; but I, as your
Lordships well know, am a plain man—(A laugh)--and I
way, without any subtlety or refinement, that the Noble
Lord's mode of 'expressing himself, even now, is such as
would almost make me halieve that he meant to insi-
nuate that my conduct on the occasion in question
was :pore worthy of a hired advocate than of an im-
partial Judge, sitting in the highest court in the realm.—
(A laugh.) My Lords, the Noble Marquis is quite
right in not allowing any :;,an to prevent him from doing
what he conceives to he his dory ; far be it from me to
attempt to make the Noble Lord refrain from any given
proceeding, of to impede or obstruct hint in the discharge
of his Parliamentary duty; but what I beg to ask him to
do for his own sake, seeing be has hinted a complaint, for
my sake, and for the sake of the dignity of your Lordships'
House, (of the privilege of which he is so staunch an up-
holder) is, that if he has any charge, in connection with
this subject, against ine, or any other Member of the
House, to state it in an open, manly, and straightforward
%vv.—(llean) The charge which, rue Noble Lord has
oxprease:l is, that in respect of the individual who yester-
day appeared at the bar, I played almost the part of an ad-
vocate, although that person was admitted to have corn-
tiriqed a breach of privilege, and that, to the Noble Lord's
great and unmixed astonishment, instead of taking the
part of the Home, and siding against the culprit, went
with the offender, aCid against the House, upon a matter
declared, nernine dissentients, Lays'the Noble Lord (and if
declared without dissent, then must even I have been a
party to the declaration), to be a gross infringement of
privilege,—a false and scandalous libel. Now just look at
the Noble Lord's argument ; the Noble Lord says I sided
with the CUiprit, and unfairly endeavoured to bring him
off; yet it appears I agreed to the proposition for declaring
the paragraph a gross and scandalous libel; so that, ac-
cording to the Noble Lord's reasoning, I must have been
a party to the rejection of my own plan. But the Noble
Marquis has given a very imperfect account of the trans-
action, considering ea; I myself stated to your Lordships
whatever might be my advice, founded on experience, as
to the expediency of your Lordships ;;;,,,t getting much
deeper it, en: difficulty created by prosecuting this breach
of privilege, that at all events if you were disposed to go
on, it was quite a matter el apurae that your decision must
be against the accused, it being perfeatly evident that the
article complained of was a breach of privilege. Whether
this was an abandonment of the privileges of your Lord-
!hips' House (and the Noble Lord accuses me of abandon-
ing thew) I know not ; I leave it to your Lordships to
determine. Having, in the outset, expressed my opinion
as to the character of the offence,l. only offered my adviec
deuce,— aclsi cats atthemight result hale
to of been
getting dictatedintou
n through idm pros
Lerdehireneicieosussaery
sions on the ptivilegea of your

shins which can tend to nothing less than to the support of
your privileges and dignity. Nothing has passed this
night in the face of the public, any more than last night
behind the backs of the public, to alter my opinion as to
the inexpediency of these discussions. But I was the first
to declare myself a friend to the maintenance of the privi-
leges and dignity of the House, and I was also the first to
advise such a comae to be adopted as might render every
measure to be taken in this proceeding a measure sanctioned
by the unanimity of the whole House. As has been
tated, when fine and imprisonment were proposed, I en-
reated the Noble and Learned Lord who suggested them,
not to press the proposition, which, by the way, was never
formally made, but only thrown out far consideration. It
s only justice to the Noble and Learned Lord to admit
that he was under the impression that fine and imprison-
ment we,e the least punishments that had ever been in-
flicted under similar circumstances, and upon that account
only the Noble and Learned Lord proposed them. But
that I should ever agree with the Noble Marquis to fine
a man 100/. and commit him to Newoate for six months,
ea. a breach of privilege such as this, is al ogether
side. I must first have this question tf your Lordships'
privileges debated at length. I must open up the ques-
tion of the right of the House to imprison fir six months
nd icflict a fine—it may be of 10,000/.—on an individual,
tried by no Jury, and defended by no counsel, because a
Noble Lord may complain of his feelings being injured by
-t newspaper paragraph. Why, my Lords, if such a prin-
ciple were to be admitted, one Noble Lord would complain
~f one newspaper, another would direct your attention to
a breach of privilege in a second, and the practice might
I be extended till your Lordships' House would be conver ed
into an inquisition instead of a Gain of Justice. My
Lords, before I can admit such a principle, I must have
this matter argued ; and if the Noble Marquis thinks it a
mere motion of course that the King's subjects shall be
sentenced to imprisonment and fines, he is very much mis-
taken, and will find, that every time such a thing shall be
proposed, he and I must inert and battle, fist, the point
of law, secondly, the point of privilege ; and if, upon
these points, the right of fine and imprisonment be esta-
blished, then we must dispute the point of justice to the
public, of humanity to the individual, and of *deuce and
discretion in your Lordships For these reasotts, and be-
cause I am a friend to the charact, r, privileges, and dig-
nity of this House, and desirous of upholding them, and
not that I act the part of counsel to an offender against
your Lordships' privileges,lshall give my vote for the mei-
sure that will soonest get rid of the difficulty, which it is
no fault of mine if it has been created.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—My Lords, I wish
to say a few words in explanation, and though I may he
supposed to he writhing under the eloquence of the Noble
and Learned Lord, I still think I am able to answer one or
two points of his speech. As to the charge which he says
I brought against him," I certainly did state that the Noble
and Learned Lord's course in the matter, and the argu-
ments which he used, put me in mind of an advocate; and
it appeared to me that if the Noble and Learned Lord had
really been arguing the case in the capacity of counsel for
the criminal, he could not have spoken with in we zeal or
eloquence on his behalf. As to the Noble and Learned
Lord's not upholding the privileges cis, the House, my re-
mark is fully justified, by the speech which he has just
delivered ; for in the latter part of it be appears to doubt
the existence of those privileges. If the Noble and Learned
Lord doubts them I do not ; and I must say, I should much
rather have heard the sentiments which he has just utu red
on the subject expressed by any one rather than by him.
I think the privileges of the House go much further than
the Nishle and Learned Lord seems to imagine, and I am
sorry for the latter part of this argument, because, being
of opinion that fine and imprisonment may he justly in-
flicted by the House, I am sorry to see the fact questioned
by such an authority as the Noble and Learned Lord.
Lord WYNFORD—I am much obliged to my Noble
and Learned Friend for his explanation of what fell from
me on this subject list night. What I said upon that oc-
casion has been altogether misunderstood. I never moved
for fine and imprisonment. I did not propose that fine and
imprisonment should be inflicted on Mr. LA meson, but I
proposed that what the Noble Lord on the cross-bench
threw out on the subject of fine should be adopted; and,
as usual in all such cases. that the party should be impri-
soned till the fine was paid, consistently with the practice
adopted in all the courts. But I never dreamt of uniting
the two punishments of fine and imprisonment, and I never
thought of inflicting a fine till the person at the bar had
refused to disclose who was the party concerned in the
publication in question. I certainly thought that his re-
fusal, and his putting himself upon his confidential situ-
ation, in justification of that-refusal, had aggravated the

ease, and on that adeount I propose .hoe- The Noble
and Learned Lord on the woolsack, :although he did not
directly dispute the authority of the House to inflict fine
and imprisonment, appeared disposed to throw some doubt
upon it. For my own part, I should tremble to hazard
an opinion contrary to that of the Noble and Learned Lord
upon this or any other subject, where. I not fortified by
some decided authority. Such an authority does exist in
the present instance : I allude to the case of " The King
and Flower ;" the defendant having been committed by
the House, applied to the Court of King's Bench by
Habeas Corpus, and no case was ever argued with greater
• ability than this by the defendant's Counsel ; yet the
Court, without hearing any answer,,at once confirmed the
authority of Parliament. This deciUim sets at rest the
question of right, and I thought it s'ne to the House to
quote it, as the privilege seems to kave been questioned by
my Noble and Learned Friend. But although I stand up
for the power of the House, and insist upon its authority
to fine and imprison, I • would disclaim any intention of
acting up to the extent of the power, or any thing hie it :
on the contrary, I shall Le quite content with whatever
may be done on this occasion which, in the opinion of
those mole conversant than so young a Member of the
House can possibly be with the practice and privilege of
Parliament, shall appear fit.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I think that this
rase should be disposed of at the time proposed by the
Noble Lord, and, if possible, with a complete unanimity of
feeling on the part of the House ; anti I am happy to col-
lect that there is at present but little difference of opinion
as to the course which may he ultimately expedient to-
adopt. What I protested against last night was the prin-
ciple of bringing an individual to the bar without suffi-
cient notice. I have not expr,ssed my opinion as to the
existing authority of the House, but I said that upon a
question on which great doubts had been thrown, we ought
not to come to a reeultsticn hastily, or acting upon the
feeling of the moment, when we :night afterwards wish
that our resolution had been adopted after better and more
mature consideration. It is but justice to the Noble and
Learned Lord-opposite, to admit that his proposition was
not persisted in. The first feeling—namely, that the in-
dividual at the bar should be called up and reprimanded,
was abendoued on a comparison of his case with one
which had recently occurred, and in which a similar course I
was taken. It was thought that what was considered
sufficient punishment in the one cue ntightebe too light
in the other : besides., in the case of the individual who
had received the reprimand, the party was brought at a
considerable expense to himself from Ireland, so that the
punishment was greater than it could be in the present in-
ranee. Upon that consideration, and also in reference to
a doubt whether Mr. Lawson's apology, to the House, and
to the Noble Earl, was sufficiently
_ample, the idea of re-
primanding- and discharging him last night was alien-
dona. But now both objections aapiaetritosbeieot rid of_.
The individual has been subjected tsi some further confine-
ment, and may be retained in cuat;dy,till to-morrow, and
the petition, which has been readiseipresses his deep se-
eret at having failed in respect 'to she House, and the
Nuble Eat] whose feelings have :been hurt on this occa-
sion. Thus, both pleas, the inadequacy of the punishment
end of the apology, have been removed, and under these
circumstances, I put it to your Lordshipe, whether the
retire reasonable and lenient course will not be to direct
Mr. Lawson to attend at the bar to-morrow, in which
ca-e he can be reprimanded and dischatged. In these pro-
eeedinge my Lords, I can moat readi y concur; but, my
Lords, I beg to state now, that if any Noble L' 5.,1 Jaen
to-morrow propose to carry the matter any farther then
this, I shell meet certainly oppose the proposition of that
Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl BATHURST—I rise, my Lords, merely to ob-
serve, that even if the proposition for taking this discus-
sion with dossed doors can justify, the imputation which
has been made by the Noble Earl opposite, stiil I think
that it would have been far better if such a proposition
had been acceded to. I am far from contending that it is
always necessary that your doors should be closed upon
every discussion respecting theeptivilegee of your Lord-
ships ; but I do say that when you have to debate a cool'
plaint of libel, or au imputation of libel, or other matter
of the like nature, it would be much better in my opinion
to deal with such things with closed doors. I am sorry
therefere that the order of your Lordships was not en-
forced to-day ; and after what we have heard, I believe
that I am addressing very feiv Weed among your Lord-
ships who do not concur With the in that expression of
regret, and who are notenoW, whatever they might have
thought at first, of -opinion that it would have beet'
much better to have taken this discussion with closed
doors. —( Hear, hear, from the cross benches.)
Earl GREY said (as nearly as we could catch his Lord-
ship's observations)—l am sure, my Lords, it will be in
the recollection of your Lordships that I only differed from,
the Noble Lord as to the propriety of excluding strangers.

The ground of my opposing the exclusion of strangers
this, na:nely, that I do not think that it is to the ad-
vantage of the privileges of your Lordships, and mutt',
less to the dignity and the character of your Lordships,
to take such a discussion as this with closed doors.—
(Cheers.)--I did not, however, my Lord., throw any ito
potation,
.even the most distant, upon Noble Lords, whc
took a contrary view of the manner in which, upon such
occasions, the privileges, the dignity, and the character td
your Lordships would be best consulted.—(Hear.)

The Earl of flannixoTosr and Lord Ter:TEI:I3EN cos.
together, but there was a general call for
Lord TENTERDEN, who said (as we understood his
Lordship, who spoke in a tone most distressingly indis-
tinct)—My Lords, after what has fallen from the Noble
and Learned Lord on the noolsick, I think myself bound
to inform your Lordships, that it is the constant practice
of all courts of law, in inflicting a fine, to add to that in-
fliction this farther term—namely, that tke party fined
shall be imprisoned until that fine be paid. I speak, toy
Lords of the superi r courts in Westminster-hall; and I
em sure that instances of this practice will be found in all
of those courts. Now, my Lords, I cannot bring myself
to think, that while the courts of Westminster-hall possess
this privilege, it can properly be denied to your Lordships.
—(Hear, hear, front the cress-benches.) In what cases,
under what circumstances, and to what extent, your Lord-
ships should exercise that privilege, is quite another ques-
tion, and one upon which I do not propose to say one
word ; but I must declare that I think the right of y our
Lordships to the exercise of that privilege is dear, distinct,
and indisputable. And why, my Lords, was this power
conferred ? It was conferred, my Lords, not for the pro-
tection of those who :possess it,—not for the sake of the
House of Lords,—not for the sake of the House of Com-
mons,—not fur the sake of the courts of law, all of whom
are in equal possession of the power,—but for the sake of
the nation at large, for whose welfare and well-govern-
ment it was absolutely necessary that all men should be
taught to pay due reverence to the great legislative council
of the kingdom, and to those tribunals of justice in which
the laws of the land are administered. These, my Lords,
.are the reasons why the' two Houses of Parliament, and
why courts of law, possess this power ; these are the rea-
sons why each of them ought to possess it : and I ant quite
sure that if they, and especially the two Houses of Parlia-
ment, did not possess this power of vindicating themselves,
it would be impossible that their respective duties could
be performed with dignity to themselves, or with advan-
tage to the country.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said—My Lords, I am
once more compelled to embark in this unfortunate discus-
sion. I say compelled, because, after what has fallen from
my Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice upon the subject
of Parliamentary law, I feel xnyself under the necessity,
the absolute necessity, for the sake of the dignity and the
character of Parliament—for the sake of the 'country and
and of the subjects of the King, as well as out of kind-
ness to my Noble Friend—first of all to set my Noble
Friend right upon a point of so much importance, and,
next, to give my Noble Friend an opportunity of recon-
siderieg what he has said, and then of explaining himself
to your Lordship. I have said, my Lords—and I repeat
it now once mere—that I dovery much doubt the existence
of this power wi:h which your Lordships are said to be in-
vested, and to which some of your Lordships appear to
cling with so much and such fond tenacity ; and my
Lords, if I do entertain this doubt, I have at least the
consolation of knowing that I am countenanced in my
scepticism by some of the very highest constitutional autho-
rities, and by some of the greatest lawyers, as well con-
stitutional as general lawyers, that ever the bar produced,
or that ever adorned the Senate, or that ever added weight
arid dignity to the bench. But, my Lords, in spite of
the support which I receive from such great and learned
men, I believe that I am quite wrong, and I believe so,
my Lords, because you tell me so. True it is, my Lords,
that you are the judges in your own cause, and if I do
not raise any argument upon that as between your Lord-
ships and myself, with regard to the existence of this
power, yet, let me tell your Lordships, that the fact of
your being judges in your own cause ought to make
you very slow to exercise this power : for though you
will always be the judges in your own cause in matters
of this description, and if you possess this power, you,
let me tell you, that you will not always be what
judges ought to be,—calm, temperate, dispassionate, dis-
interested, and just' judges; and yet, without these essen-
tiel qualifications of judges, destitute of the only qualify-
cations which can insure a fair administration of justice,
and being, moreover, at once a party to and the judges of
the cause, your course of proceeding will be, to drag a
man to your b:r against whom there has been no indict-
ment, to tell him what charges are made against him,—
to whom you allow no counsel to advise with him, either
with regard to the matter of feet or matter of law,—whose
defence, be it what it may, will he deemed good or bad an-
couLne to your opinions, and not according to any other
• criterion ; and upon this man, so situated, you will, with-
out deliberation, and under a sense of wounded dignity,
proceed to pass what sentence you may please to pass, for
the sentence will be regulated by your pleasure and by
nothing else ; or if by any thing else, by some precedent
laid down by men who before your times have appeared
in the same character of party, accuser, and judge,—
%dime object may have been punishment, not justice,—
who silly have been influenced not by respect for your pri-
vileges, but by vindictiveness arising from some personal
offence, and may perhaps-have taken as little time as your-
selves to allow their resentment to subside.—(A burst of
cheers.)—And this, my Lardv, this is the course by which
you propose to vindicate; your privileges, and to preserve
:the dignity and the tltaisooter r of your Lordships' House
unsullied !—(Much cheering.)—l know very well, my
Lords, that this is no reason against the possession of this
power—l mean no reign for saying that you have it not ;
but I think it may eierhaps be a very good reason why you
ought Bever eesintee had it ; and surely, my Lords, it is
a reason us it ought to be convincing.—surely, my
Lords,.: it is the very best possible reason Why you
should ahetain from the exercise of that power : surely,
my Lcieds, it is the very hest possible reason why you
should have taken that advice which I took the liberty to
tender to you,—to tend. r to you for the sake of your privi•
leges, and not for the sake of violating your privileges,—
namely, that you should abstain from the exercise of such
a power, except in cases of imminent and absolute neces-
sity.—(Hear, hear.) Now my Noble Friend the Lord
Chief Justice may be very right—and I know your Lord-
ships think he is—in saying that you have this power; •
but he cannot he right in the reasons which he has given
for the yoseeesion of that power. Let him be quite sight
in saying that you have the power, 'hut he must be quite
wrong rn the reasons which he has assigned for saying that
you lefve it. What were those reasons? I heard them,
my Lards. with wonder and amazement. He tells you,
that because the Courts of Law in Westminster-hall have
the power to fine and imprison, so also must the Houses of
Loris and Coin:none have that power. Good God ! my
.eLvoeireltsu,i7ittioll etvhei
sr
dh euayt:dwtiiilel
nthyisoumohanvieentb—eenwhioeln were d
yt'litue
Lord Chief Justice of England—that the House of Com-
mons has the right to inflict tines and imprisonment upon
his Majesty's en'rjects in vindieetion of their privileges?
--(Much cheering. )—No one who knows any thing about
the law and the constitution of the country can hesitate
for a moment in saying that the Lord Chief Justice is
grievously in et ror here ; and until I am told by my Noble
Friend, in terms the twist clear and the most explicit, I
willentg believe that he is prepared to itetend and Justifyin law what he hai . Said fur be bas:thereby
ferred upon the House of Commons a power, which none
of his least-learned, none:of his worst, none of his molt
corrupt, none of his least calm, his least temperate,
or his least respectable predecessors, ever dreamt of arm-
ing the Commons with.—(Cheers.)—But I may be doing
the Lord Chief Justice wrong; he may think, in con-
formity with the reasons he has given, that the House of
Commons has this power though it does not exercise it,
for upon that, at least,—the non-exercise of he—there can
be no doubt. And if so, perhaps my Noble Friend thinks
that the Commons have the power of examining upon
oath as well as your Lordships, and that your Lordships
and the Commons participate equally and reciprocally in
all the privileges and powers incident to each. It is quite
clear, however, th.it my Noble Friend supposes that the
Speaker of the House of Commove may summon a min
to the bar of the House, fine him lOW., and imprison him
till the fine he paid.—(Hear, hear.)—Yes, this must have
been the opinion of my Noble Friend, which I hereby give
gains an opportunity of retracting, as I have no doubt he
will ; for, upon reflection, my Noble Friend must see that
that opinion is utterly untenable, although his whole ar-
gument was intended to support and demonstrate it,--
asthat argument being, that
inse
of Lo
‘V e sit mr
and
tds er-
Commons have
o,r the Cu
dragged into this must
siA.,hlhvoeyi: Lrultbsooseer,u cdrsta,n
,cilo love t
beensay this; fur, as a member
f
ling
situation which I hive the honour to hold, I could
ndoit'tie;
consistently with my duty as a member of this House,
or consistently with the character of the office which
I fill, hear the Lord Chief Justice of England—no
slight authority on a point of law—make this exposition of
the Parliamentary law without at once contradicting it.—
(Cheers.) If may Noble Friend, the Lord Chief Justice,
adheres to this opinion, let him make a motion upon the
subject, and bring his store of legal reseaith to bear upon
it, and support it if he can. Let him do this, and if; if,
doing this, he should succeed in persuading your Lord-

.Lips that the House of COWC2OIISI 11.19 this power am'
privilege.,—and I should not be at all surprised if be did
persuade your Lordships of it—(Hear, and a laugh)—
your Lordships will have the satisfaction of homing tha!
you have, by the sanction of your Lordships high autho-
rity, invested the House of Commons with a power whirl
the stoutest friend of Parliamentary privileges never be-
fore ventured to arrogate to the Commons Houqe of Parlia-
ment. (The Noble and Learned Lord sat down amidst
;ouch cheering.)

Lord TENTF.RDEN said_ My Lords, I never was a
Member of the House of Commons, and therefore I must
be far inf.-rior in the means of informatit:n on this subject
to my Nair and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, who
was for so long a time one of the most distinguished orna-
ments of that House. I spoke from recollection—it may
he from imperfect recollection ; but I WAS strongly im-
pressed with the notion that there wt re instances in which
the House of Commons had exercised this power. I was
mistaken, I dire say ; but with reg,ard to this House, 1
think there can be no doubt that it has the power.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—I am very glad that I
have given my Noble and Learned Friend an opportunity
of making this explanation, because these things, though
very familiar to Members of the House of Commons, may
not he so well known here, where still there can be no in-
convenience in having them understood. The fact is, that
the House of Commons has the power of commitment,
but not for any certain time ; they hare the power to com-
mit as a means of removing an obstruction ; nut the con-
finement of the person so committed can last no longer
than the end of the session. The House of Lords, on the
other hand, being a court of justice—a court of record,—
nay, the highest court of Justice, is said to have the power
of committing for a time certain, and of fining ; but that
power has been disputed by many sound lawyers, and
especially by Sir Arthur Pigot, who was one of those
who denied that the House of Lords had the power of
committing for a time certain. I know very well that the
Court of King's Bench has decided otherwise.
Lord KING sAd—As it appears t.) be the opinion of
your Lordships that this matter should be postponed till
to-morrow, .I will not press that Mr. Lawson should be
called to the bar to-day. I should have thought it would
Lye been much letter, and much more convenient, to
have disposed of the matter at once ; but still I will not
urge my own opinion in opposition to that of your Lord-
ships.
The Earl of HADDING TON said—l thought at first,
and I still think, that the Noble Earl who intro duced this
subject, and your Lordships who took it up, have acted
quite properly. Still, however, I concur with the Noble
Lord who has just sat down, in the opinion that it would
be much better to finish the matter at once, than to post-
pone it till another day. (" No, no," from Lord Wyn-
ford. ) I think that the object has now been attained.—
However, if this proposition of mine is to create any con-
siderable difference among your Lordships, I will nut say
another word about it. If the question were, whether
Mr. Lawson should receive some considerable punish-
ment, or whether he should only b.. rept imanded, I agree
that we ought to take time for consideration ; but as I un-
derstand it to be settled that your Lordships do not propose
to go farther than a reprimand, and that the only question
is, whether that reprimand shall take place to-morrow or
to-day, I must say that I think it would be better if it
were to take place to-day.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said a few words,
which we did not understand, about congratulating the
House, and about privilege.

The LORI) CHANCELLOR then put the Ttestion,
" That the matter contained in this petition be taken into
further consideration to-morrow," which was agreed

CIVIL LIST.
On the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, this Bil
was read a third time and passed.

REFORNI.

Earl GROSVENOR presented petitions in favour of
Parliamentary Reforro, from the county of Chester, and
from several other places—Adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, ApRIL 20.
The SPEA K En. took the Chair precisely at Three o'clock.
Several private Bills were forwarded a stage.
Sir H. PARNELL took the oaths and his seat for Queen's
County.