The Sun.
London, England, 1825-06-15 00:00:00

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minster. May 31, 1825.

PA LIU A ENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, JUNE 14.

•
On the motion of the Earl of MALMESBURY, an account
was ordered of all the corn, grain, and flour, imported from the
British cGlonies in North Ameritia since the year 182:3. •
Sir Rorttur Fanctuita.n anti others, from the Commons,
brought up the Mauritius Trade Bill, the .Duke of Cumber-
land's Annuity Bill, the Scotch Prisoner's Aliment Bill, and
several other Bills.
The Dtike-of ATHOLL preented a petithin from Roch-
dale, in favour of the Equitable.Lpan Bill.
The Earl of DARNLEY presented a pOtion from an-indi-
vidual of St. Mary's, Athlone, complaining of vexatious pro-
ceedings in the Vestry of that parish. .
On the motion of the Marquis of LANsriowx, an account
was. ordered to be laid before the Tiouse.of the quantity and
value of all American timber imported into the port of London.
within the last five years.
AMERICAN AND COLONIAL STEAM NAVIGA-

TION BILL.
The Margkils Of LANSDOWN, in the absence of the Noble
Earl, the President of His Majesty's Council, who was pre-
vented from attending by indisposition, moved the suspension
of the standing orders of last session, No. 210 and 211, in order
to read a second time the bill for establishing this company.
He said that he had loOked upon this undertaking as one of
great national importance, both as regarded the British co-
lonies and the Mother country, :in improving their commer-
cial connexions, and as being calculated to promote the mi-
litary security of those colonies. The growing importance of
the intarcourse with America generally, and South America,
rendered it peculiarly desirable to :IfFord increased advantages.
The bill was shaped to give every security the public had a right
to expect. •
The Earl of L \ LIDERDA LE said; that this motion had his
entire concurrence, the subject being of a magnitude beyond
individual enterprise, and was calculated to promote very use-
ful objects.
The Earl of LIMERICK hadgreat satisfaction in observing
the unanimous feeling in faliciur of this measure, which, as in-
terested in -the prosperity 'of the south of:lreland, commanded
his warmest support.—The order was then suspended, the bill
read a second time, and committed.
COLONIAL INTERCOURSE BILL.
the British Co-
:Earl BATHURST, in moving the second reading of this
Bill, entered, into a history of the law respecting Colonial Inter-
cou'rs6, and stated the object of the present measure, which has
sowbt,i,
stt)iailfhe,bolieretineltjeseaeceictxftc,citr,atcy:c'i)aewrnioepbtiir
ngxalsetoal.
iiiesipulloielt,iorlithtdelrelooae,articles
r.it,lwiiiirfullylosaallelelscemri,nrc
llewhichlaadr4seTioni,n,extensive
illexplained:niesatearut;plfhitt.
t:eoio.loiyo.
rnr. debates
eijll).:rlntiwehteltiienoteint.?aositttii.lhltreatietittix.ii
.1.
spol,
rio
itfi) theit
si
osin 10 n Iv ,
farmedoltt ii si e
u o
tf.
Commons. After describing the dispute,ilwl leseiiiicttitheisehrdifgearreiigisill)aowtritioatnh...
e.
e
s
arehousing system
rt(hmeieUs:iitheed ..i3Sbsti:eirtesisidontht:hitciiinuabijiect of withtradts.ielew
former Measures for regulating
ott the
hrCeuoilceo,oniaiinldiai. ,'Trade, prohibition
t:::3opditlrhsotelitiloieebxbei
extension
ociwines:ortwiepoi;iniogs.tu. the
y
rtation could not be ex-
ported was anotlicr object of this Bill. The pwarr,:eit.iitviolinical: rdeulatyte.d to that
paying..a, ditty imposed for'
1h:1i:1e:4pr:root:cot:to:
re:
thms43.l:l:titenmee.tel:asanrYth
mightniaoheisiweelacits.tiiidrati iai,a(citiiiiel:lteiee.eost,u
ioirlieroitief ()Ilho:irlienee.e
would observe that this
ethfuotrttitielts• ist'ar:
i
cow
a," :
allowed; ec
_re csfl)i
ttaaeltin'
enstrbi.etenliti:tiTiteoi
iestniolol: '
ported without
, ships;
itclogv
,1t110:1,elai:oielcrosio
Tii:tt:elshiaeheohie
sein;tor:i
iswinwnisecniel
aono:dtitsuulchiiihobnell
and:1:1
Er:'
tcay.:;ni,in:vetec:yilestilisinti
allFsisoilmioprcnilngernoec:stuelioelh,:mrecieeoltrocrnialeipty.;ynioib,tnniiioseeyni
ctstro..i).,ll7t.sottdpi identifiedNre
rat It
required.
(iic;ireld.tei}iho:rcuo,euleve(utripsfistctite.
iais.
initrioTirii
British' trade ; but. it was nut
the. United ;no trade
'l-ing.it now trade
situationor nt
couldo r port
tiet
wi f i
tt
hh
longeri thisrespect
p he countryce
t saidt oa
trade
thdaadat
eini another, h 4
placede ,
colonies- would now not only enjoy' the same advantages as
the United States; hut colonial 'vessels • would !'
between one colonial port ard another ; they might trade be-
an the adtantages of , British ships. They
tween any port of the colonies and this countty; they rni._„l
gl t trade
to other. countries ; and they might trade
..from one port to '
anothei in thiseountry.shore,the' 1 ;
c.b.ntnes' were n
.3
_,•
~, now placed
in the arrte situation with resneet;.-to tra,..!estts'it. they farmed'
parts Of the mother country. The changes which Europe -aycl
the New World had undergo' e had naturally produced this

change in our colonial sastem, Whether the State of. Atereas _
rica which had recently separated from their-Europeatr Aeas
nection would make the same stupendous progress wierattioasaaa
which had set them the example remained to he seen... Tiaaya
were atilt exposed. to warfare, and the contest in witialtethes, ~.
were engaged might be continued ; but in the;
warfare they presented to other countries the Odvantaaes.whicha
were to bealerived from neutral trade. He concluded by moviire '
that the Bill be now read a second time.
The 3latquis of LA NaDO WN rose, not to object, but to
give his support to the motion. The present bill, which prpei,
Based to make a most- important revolution in . the nervigatiosa:
livid this country, had his most cordial assent.- Ho-osynectr:
that hefelt great satisfaction, at seeing thia measure bacaseeht
. Iforward—not merely because he had lohg .entertaioed. the i.
opinions which it was at last proposed to sanction by the audidae7
city of Parliament, but because it did so happen that he hins- e _
self .'tad endeavoured to carry the same principle imeepraCticia
HS had, not in that, but ins iirsiother House of Parliatheni,
recommended. a more liberal interatieree between our colo'iliza
and America;- and no.w, after the, lapse of no less than nineteen ,
years, that course which he had advised was about to be comae
I .4 pletely adopted.. Tire measure which he recommended wds,
-, I. I indeed, compared with the_ present, weak and partial; 'but,
1 1 feeble and inefficient as it was, it' experienced an uncomnion.
0 degree of hostility.' 'lt was the subject of repeateddivisions iu
0 .• .i. Parliament, eno.mit of doors became a watch-word for clainOtir
0 and oyprobrigint It was denounced solely on the ground :
Iti Hi* ,larstlea tendency to 4u what this . bill. proposed to •
. The, frienda, and present supporters of the_.Noble Earl, oppo -
site cried it down, not only because, as-they said; eit evaa
favotirable to neutrals, hut because it evidently led to that
0 t freedom of intercourse which Ministers now took credit to
0 r themselves for establishing. Nothing was then more.ahirthe
0 ing than that which was now, in the opinion of the Nobh't
Earl, most just and politic. " Oh, dreadful thought I Tralet
the colonies trade with other powers of Europe I : What an
abomination!" were the exclamations with which his propoai- -
don had been met. Now, however, the Noble Earl at last cOme
forward to lay the axe to the root of that system whicliehad
been hitherto so pertinaciously maintained—a system which .
was a source of jealousy on the one hand, and of poverty .arid s .
discontent on the other. He congratulated himself at seeing
the, principle for Which he had contended at ,length srecogilizedae
Their Lordships, he thought, must now perceive that •if whey
wished, to retain the colonies, the best way would be to render
them, as far as possible, capable of engaging in every kind _of .
trade, and susceptible of every advantage which would he open .
to them asipaets of this, country. Ile was aware that -upon
whidever principle they proceeded with respect to the colonies,
it was still possible that a crisis would arrive that a sepaxatioo •
must take place; but it was their duty to try to avert that event,
and to endeavour to retard it to a distant period. At the same
th
o:la) time,yttcglosfitoeteroveugati
aah:suibkiehalllseeliet
tipstttaylhlt
ohesaoe
wcybi
elpiiilntodst:visa;iktrrtiw:leeb:ic; selttl::rnrdiroscieiuvtilsa)elielocrethtntaiha,
bnt7a,goticethdel
:taiiirlicli:oe;aii,i)aitil,eblsnirdnte:tirlepe.eionillitleeaolptcecmdaecebiidltrndnietoafoeunpiinonislr:clet.aye:siuse.r
never
rthit;.te;ira-ett,
would have recommended such a course if he had thought it in-
volved any abandonment'of the interests of the mauler country. a That it would have such an effect, was an opinion which'. he. •
did not suppose any of their Lordships oul entertain. They had experienced the effect of the restriwctionsd already removed froth commerce, and they could thereby judge whether their ..
' own essential interests would -suffer from a farther ren-loval. .
the good effects of what had already. been done they had an
ample in the increase of trede—not merely of trade by.foreian
shipping,but by an increase of Bridal' navigation, as appetieedslisie
the returns of shipping and seamen on . the table of-dia.House.,
► He had understood that other measures, in connexion with -
the present were to -have been brought forward; and -if.their
Lordships had en this subject any thing now to complain of,
their complaints must be chiefly confined to the mode in which
the buiness was submitted to their consideration—to the'cir....
cumstance of its being brought forward in such. a way.tbat-
'their LOrdshipa had no opportunity of judging of the effect of-
the whole system by the fitness and coherence of its parts. • One
of the proposed -measures, he understood, was a regulation
which would have the effect. of removing duties on a certain
dtscription of We_st India produce, consisting of articles-which
could not in any way enter intj competition with British pro.: -
duce or manufactures. Nothing could be more desirable than
the adoption of a system which, like this reaulation, would
tend to the establishment of a system of free labour. All their -
Lordships, he, was sure, were earnestly desirous to see free lc-
bour substituted for the system which at present prevailed. in .
the sugar colonies. Without being so sanguine as to expect
that this measure would solo -place the while of a population such as the Blacks in the West Indies-in
-so desirable a
.-
tion, he could not help looking tbrward with much satisthetion. s •
to a plan which seemed calculated.to lead gradually to the-for-
motion of free labourers by tne,sitonle process of giving to the .
slave at, once a motive for. exertioo, -with the means of obtain:-
ing his object. He therefore, not only approved-of the present
measure, but looked with anxiety to the future-Bill.
The Earl of •LIVEit POOL regretted -that another
which might be conveniently,' though it was not necesSarilr., • •
connected with the one then before their Lordships, had ,nos .
-come up from the other House at the same time. That would • -
have been a convenience as far as the discussion-ye4e siflas
ject was concerned, but still as it was not essentially tonirecital-
with the present measure,-their Lordshipi might proceed -
out it. It were to be wished that there should be an end of ell• -
systems of prohibition ; but under the preaent circonistanes,
he thought that the Bill before the House was wisely introsae
duced. A measure had been introduced oir this subje.er.,airbiai• -
the Noble Lord-opposite (the Marquis of Lansdown) was
cellor of the Ekclrequer, and he (Lord Liverpool) had 'felt", it •
his deity to opposa it.- •He thought that the time and circUcri:
stances in which it was brought forward -were tinfaVourable 't7;
its adoption. Now;:however, circumstances-were inriebehanatede
South America had nearly effected its entire independence ;
. when that was 'once established, 'he admitted that our colonic
ceased to exist as such, brit should for the purposes of cormiseree
--
be considered'and treated `as integral parts of • Great Britain, *a's-
much as- London,- or Liverpool, or anTother town in' this tom,-
try.By treating them on diet 'footing, we secured theli attach
ment ; and if at any future dine-they should be separated Ntit
us, their separation would thereby be rendered much lesi
gerous. The Billbefore their Lordships
.cotild' not'. be looked
foreign ships to bring to t a produce of' their
upon as an infrii eame:it oifl'..l,lcsoeioNtiltevsigoliatliyonthLtie wa. It idlowet
respective countries, and take-back to 'their Own countries
din .the
nengttithleedlo-
commodities of the colonies ; but it did not in any- case admit
such ships to any part of the carrying tradet so' as to take she
produce of-the colonies bet Ween nations to which such ships did
ecotnl,l oiduegrhattiotnh.e:Jl.i
Itlog.thetirrnidoerrdasliiies c
mi r j
p ons tr
After a few words in explanation from the Marquis of I;aale- .
cnf'salvaonucreas b I eh
below the bar) the Bill was mid a second time, and ordered .0)
Dowir and' the Earl of- lAvEitteooa (which were not heard
be committed on Thursday. - •••
LOAN
EQUITABLE LOAN BILL
Lord DACRE moved the secOnd aeading of' this Bilk •
The Earl of LAUDERDALE expressed his surprise,, that
after that had fallen. fraM Counsel, on the. subject of...tbe
of this", Bill, his Noble Friend -should . have. con,
fined himself to inerely moving. the second reading, without-.
stating any, one ground .. why • it should. be read a \itecor.ct •
time. However, it was not iris intention to take up theirLord-:-
ships' time.on'it-now : Ire would consent to the Bill being sent
to a Committee, in order.to have the deed thade,a-part of tie._
_Bill, and on the third reading it would be for their: Lordships.
to:consider bow far the, Bill so .constructed ought to.--receive ::
their sanction, and how far it might be consistent with• the
law Of the land. .His objection to this Bill did not arivlk.tiont,r,
any wanton -prejudice, but from a strong feeling, he /ia:d.of.:
what •might.be the injurious effect of joint, stock tompanirs:
on the commerce of the esountay.: lelecoold not concur in thee- a
assertion that joint stock companies encouraged competitiont:, •
so far from that, .he drought 'thealir-ect. effect of them'Wasetas
-destroy all competition, and to bring the most ruinous cam:aequences. upon- trade. In the nature of such companies/a,'
they could- mit carryon r trade so beneficially to -the country;
as-private individuals. Ile Was opposed -to this comparavi •
letause it was commancediaadecarried on -,up to the, preseot
time op principles which he held to be illegal and injiiriona
the country, . . . • n
• The LORD CHANCELLOR .observed, that if this coma - -
patty were not illegal, it, might he-for their: Lordships ttnoteaa-
sitter Whether it would .be useful to the, community to grates
thens-the_ privileges for which they sought; ihuteif: thAy-ysiessa' •
not legal, it mightabe asked oh what ground 'Aid. thertleitn!
any -privileges at. all ? , It was- folly. admitted :,at
@rips bar.' that. until, die signing of, he .trustpelfedi „the
Bang was Unquestionably illegal : lie had -no objeetionto:.allolg'
the trust-deed to form a- part of -the Bill, either. by. schedale
or otherwise ; and after It had passed.. the ' Committee;.-4.

Y~~ w

°eh,.ld be aompetent fo.: their Lordships to discuss whether
the P:11,. as it woold then stand, was or was‘not a fit measure
for kgisiative sanction ; and he would take care that the twelve
:tudoes should be summoned to give their opinion as to its lege,.
lily. lie now begged to he understood distinctly as neither
admitting or tienyin Coe legality of the company, until -the
oiteeit formed a part of the-Rill.
Lord DACRE thought it had been very.fairli put by COun-
eel at their Lordshipi' barn that if any legal Objections existed
to ibis Bill, they ought tQ be • removed, du tine-. ground of its
public utility: If that utility cool 1. he.proyetiand-he had no
doubt whatever that the most satipiactory evidence could he
fc-oSen on that subjecto—he.thouOtt their Lordidilps were hound,
-in justice to the country, to give every facility tO the measure.
3:lppose this Bill wereio be objected to on the ground of its
illegality, what, he asked, would be the situation of the thirty-
four companies which had already hail Bills passed in their
favour, granting them the power of suing and being sued ?
After a few words from the Earl of LAUDERDALE, which
were sot beard below the bar,
l'be LORD CHANCELLOR. said, that. from what was
pa swig in the courts of justice, it would be but justice to all
..ne parties ocncerneci in such companies as this, that the deeds
71'10111A form part of all future Bills. It was necessary that the
centente of such deeds should be known to all parties, or the
Legislature must decide upon altering the practiceof the Courts
of Law:
Tke Duhe of A THOLL spoke in favour of the Company.
lie.soncurred with-his Noble and Learned Friend on the wool-
as.oli,•that it might be advisable to make the association deeds
a pas: of Bills of this kind in future, but he.thought it hard to
Leo:al with this bill. Other bills of a similar character had
paased without being subject to this condition.
• The LORD CHANCELLOR would be extremely_sorry
to say -any using disrespectful to individuals. He would there-
fore pay nothing with respect to the deed anti the Bill, which he
tOit rot Mean to condemn ; but he would say, that he would
alit no conveyapcer's or professional man's opinion before that
et t'e Twelve Judges of England.
coovrrsation here dropped. The Bill was ordered to be
ecoarlitted to-morrow. It was understood that the deed was
be incorporated With it in the Committee.
:...d.:;atorned at HALF-PAST SEVEN O'CLOCK..

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. JoHNSON, from the Irish Secretary's office, presented a
stmt of the number of freeholders in • the counties of Galway
and Sligo, which was ordered to be printed.
IL:e Irish Mines and Western Ship Canal Bills were read a
third time and passed.
EXPORTATION Or MACHINERY.
LETON had a petition to present which was en-
titled to the serious consideration of the House ; it was from the
artisans of the town and county of Nottingham, and they prayed
that Parliament would not repeal the laws which prohibited the
exportation of machinery. The petitioners declared their con.
siction that it was this prohibition of the export of the perfect
mac't•.irery used in so many important branches of the manufac-
tures of this country, which had made the trade of England the
admiration of the world. The petitioners enumerated the num-
beut end value of particular machines used in the manufacture
in w'bich they were interested, and forceably urged the local and
general advantages which had arisen from their being kept in
this country. If the law which had operated hitherto with so
much advantage were now to be repealed, the conntry would
have to rue such an experiment, for it would necessarily drive
artiaans to accompany their machinery to foreign states. The
Hon. Member enforced the prayer of this petition, arid theitight
that if any alteration of the, old law were intended,- it'OUght to
be left in the power of the Board of Trade to licence or pro-
hibit the export of machines (Oa particular nature.
31r: BIRCH strongly concurred in recommending this pe-
tition to the favourable consideration of the House.

Mr. HUSK ISSON entirely concurred in the importance of a
au*ct which had so excited the feelings of the artisans of this
country. But were he to express a general opinion on a subject
teat which a Committee was now sittingohe would say that
the continuance of the laws in their old state, to which so
many of the artisans- appeared attached, was inconsistent
with the more liberal policy in trade which the country
had recently adopted. Still, however, he would by no means
recommend any serious alteration, without the fullest con-
sideration, and more particularly without hearing the opinions of
thew! practical men who ought' perhaps, to be the beat judges of.
what cesined most likely to affect their interest' in several trades.*
It would be very well for the Committee to hear all the infor-
hnation which practical men-were_capeble of affording upon the
rehject, and then they could enlighten each other on the gene-
r.el topics which such a consideration involved. For instance,
toe artisene entertained a generel • opiniOn that the great ad-
veaces made by the manufactures of ,this country were owing
entirely to the perfection of theit.inachinery., How far that
mold be deemed the sole cause, or , whether it Was connected
with other causes, it would be right to determine. And lie re-
peatekthat no alteration ought to take place without the most
.gnat re consideration. Still the llouie ought to consider that
they and to a great extent acted upon the principle of the free
circulation of labour, and it would-be dilliculffor them to stop
a:tag-ether respecting the case of machinery, and particularly
when the law of patentsin this country so nearly resembled the
law upon the same matter in France and in the Netherlands,
ceuetries of which the artisans were most jealous. When
as arlean tool; out a patent in England, lie mostly provided
hhnielf with the same safeguard in these two other states. He
watt most disposed,considering the great alarni which pervaded
tea manufacturing interests on this subject, to treat the matter
with as much delicacy and caution as possible, and by no means
to act without further and fuller inquiry. Ile could not, hew-
over, coicur in his lion. Friend's recommendation of referring
the subject to the Board of Trade, for that Board had already
more than enough of business on its hands': and if the further
duty were imposed upon them of deciding what ankles of ins-
adsine.ry should be exported, and those on which an embargo
entgrit to be laid, then they would assign to the Board of Trade
an invidious and unpleasant duty, for which, as at present con-
atitated, they were totally unfit.
Mr. HUME said, -that as one of the Committee *upon
Machinery, he quite agreed in the importance of the subject,
^AO that all parties ought to be fully heard before the law was
:littered, although nothing had occurred to alter the opinion he
had long focused, that the laws relative to the export of machi-
nery ought to. be made to partake of the general improvement
in the prieciples and policy of trade. Still lie confessed that lie
nv put to press at this moment a repeal, against the pre-
eeiting state -ofeeLarnothat was manifest, which otherwise he
had intended`to propose. When they went into the inquiry
respecting the causes of the advancement of the national trade,
he apprehended it would be difficult to sustain the opinion that
-the improvement of machinery was entitled to the exclusive
pace re which some artisans had placed it. When the Com-
hte.e reported, it would be seen how tar they had gone into the
general inquiry; it was, however, remarkable that no artisan was
found to deprecate universally the export of machinery, so that
steps might be taken to classify such articles as an embargo ft
woe unnecessary for. And there was another thing which it
wait desirable to ascertain—how far it was in the power of the
Customhouse officers to execute these prohibitory laws t • for
tisose who evaded them could manage to transmit the machine
io different parts, and from different ports, in forms very diffi-
cult of detection. .For instance, steam-engines could be ex-
ported ; and when these were sent out in separate parts, other
machines could be equally sent out with them. He wished
Retinas to consider what thousands of them could obtain a live-
lihood in the manufacture of machines which could be exported
without any real injury to British manufactures. The Board
ui Trade could now, contrary to law, give a permission -to ex-
port certain machinery : this power ought to be legalized, and
made more general. The Committee would report in the pre-
sent Session, and then. cooly in theensuing, they could consider
what further steps they ought to take.
BARING entirely concurred in the propriety of pausing
while so much alarm was excited among artisans ; but still he
that ht it clear that nine-tenths of these machines might be
eiportiiir Without detriment to any British manufacture. At
alt esente. a discretionary power might he left somewhere, to.
permit what ought to be exported, and what ought not to be.
slowed. It could no where be assigned with greater ndvan-
Lege to the country than to the Board of Trade, the-arduous
statues of which were so ably and beneficially discharged at this
tame by the President and Vice-President, who were, he must
say, so ill-requited for their labours : indeed, so much so, that
it was incumbent upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pro-
pose a better provision for their services ; such a measure
should have his wannest support.---(Hear I)
Mr. T. WILSON concurred in the Hon. Member's eulo-
gin in upon the mode in which business was performed at the
Board of Trade, and approved of the proposal to increase the
salaries ofthe President and Vice-President.
Mr. LA WLEY was convinced that the manufacturing
interests would approve of such a proposition, from the man-
ner in which they always found their business had been at-
tended to by that Board.
Mr.. Pl-11 LI PS praised the.condect of the petitioners, and
strongly recommended their opinions to the deliberate consi-
deration of the [louse. Ile was sure that it would answer
every purpoec,--to except from the prohibition such Machines as
could with safety be exported.
COM BINATION I. AWS.
Mr. ELLICid concurred in the praise which had been be-
. stowed upon the Board of Trade, and Was desirous to take this
. opportunity of asking-the Chairman Of the Committee on the
Combination Laws when lie hoped to present their report ; and
algae -if it were intended to-found any legislative measure upon
it during the present Session. A great anxiety prevailed out
of acors on the subject.
Mr. WALL. t CE said, that the Committee were at present
tag ed-. in preparing their report,. which he hoped to present

it
either to-morrow or the next day. And as soon a.epossible,
was intended to found a legislative measure upon it.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that while the report and the evi-
dence taken in the Committee were printing, the proposed Bill
thnlirbe brought" it and discussed.
- Mr. WALLACE said, that such an arrangement would
greatly facilitate the object he had in view. The discussion,
might be taken on the last stage of the Bill.
Mr. ELLICE said, that an assent to such an arrangement
must depend en the nature of the propOsed Bill ; for if any
thing like the re-enactment of the old law were intended, he
should oppose the measure. l t-was rumoured that the inten-
tion was to repeal the last law, and to leave the whole matter
open to die old common law.. This would be objectionable, be-
cause it would be to carry the parties into Courts of Justice to
ascertain the position in, which they stood.
Mr. WALLACE replied, that so far as he knew the inten-
tions of the Committee, they did not mean to revive the old law,
neither was it their desire to re-enact the statutes which were so
long in operation upon the subject. They certainly wished to
leave the parties to the common law, as it stood in particular in-
stances, and to specify so far as it was practicable in what mat-
ters the masters and workmen might-be allowed to meet
beneficially. -
The petition from Nottingham was then laid on the table, and
ordered to be printed.
Mr. E. WODEHOUSE preiented a petition from three
gentlemen who styled themselves the French Brandy Company,
praying for some alteration in the Distillery Laws.
A ?talon was presented from Bolton, praying that there
may be no alteration in the law respecting the importation of
! wool. .

--
CONDUCT OF A SURREY MAGISTRATE. 1
Mr. DENMAN rose, pursuant to a notice which he had
given, to call the attention of the House to the conduct of a
magistrate- of the county-of Surrey. On a former evening, when
he gave the notice, he had been misunderstood, and that mis-
apprehension had gone abroad, so that he was supposed very
generally to have proffered a petition to the House against the
body of the Surrey magistracy. He had not-hinted at any thing
of the kind. Ile had particularly stated, though he was un-
fortunate in not having been plainly heard, that-his petition
was against the conduct of a magistrate of Surrey, who was also
a Judge in-the principality of Walee, and he then stated that
the name of that gentleman was Kenrick. Theconiplaint which
he had to lay betbre the House related to two particular transac-
tions. if the facts alleged should be substantiated to the satis-
faction of the House, they would form -a ground of a paramount
necessity for the House to address the Crown,
.praying that Mr.
Kenrick may be divested of any judicial situation which he now
holds. Since the office of Judge had-cbangeti its dependence
from the will of-the Crown to the term of good behaviour, no
case of abuse so grievous as these allegations had been adduced
before the House. It might be said that-there was a great un-
willingness to bring charges of a personal nature against that
class of men where no honour was to be gained by the ac-
cusation. -It would have been highly satisfactory to hint if
the subject had been taken up ih souse other quarter. It was
of that weight and importance which demanded the support -of
a person of higher station and authority than he could hope to
have in the mind of the House, and would have come much
better from any of His Majesty's Ministers. The first part of
the question which he had to propose was contained in the peti-
tion. The second part referred-to a great variety of affidavits,
which were produced on Hilary Term last in the Court of
King's Bench. From these- two sources he drew the present
inference that Mr. Kenrick had acted with partiality, violence,
and intemperance on behalf of a party for whom he chose
-to -interest himself—that he had wrongfully imprisoned an
individual who pursued him by an action, and recovered a
verdict" against him. In the other -case he had with no
less violence so conducted himself,- that if that which he had
-admitted himself in his own-affidavits should alone he taken
against him, it would prove him utterly unfit to hold - his pre-
sent office. He wished, however, to take that course which
- best agreed with fairness and strict. justice. 1k would there.
• fare refrain front going into particulars at this time, and con-
fine himself to a motion for bringing- up the petition in order to
printing it, and for producing and printing copies of the affi-
davits before mentioned. - The whole of the case would thus
be put into the hands of Members who might increase their
informations upon the facts by inquiries, after which the House
might-be called upon to declare in some form what steps it
might deem necessary to be taken. -If any other course should
be thought more just- towards Mr. Kenrick, he had no objec-
tion to the . House entertaining the-: proposition of any other
-Member for that purpose, But he eould not rest longer under
the little share of responsibility which attached to him as a
Member of Patliament without calling the attention of the
House to this case. -He had nothing to urge about general doc-
trines. The facts, if -true, were matters of such a nature that
their toleration would be an open and notorious scandal to the
interests and general character of the justice of the country.--
Still bee/as anxious that the louse shoUld suspend its judg-
ment until the documents were in the hands of all the Mem-
bers. .He moved that-the petition he brought up.
Mr. DENISON said that Mr. Kenrick was a near neigh-
bour.of his in Surrey—that he was a man of the most amiable
and proper deportment in his domestic circles; but it was well
knowli thetin public opinion no men differed .much more than
he and Air. Kenrick. -He was not the less anxious to do hint

•justice, and he had to assure the House that in a conversation
which he had had but a few hours ago with him, that -gentle-
man had expressed his most earnest desire that the House
might, by going into an examination, give Mai an opportunity
of disproving the accusations. He admitted that no question
of greater importance could arise, however this might be taken.
He would suggest, however, that it might be an improvement
in the system of the tnagistracy, if the supervision of it
were placed immediately under the Lord Lieutenant in com-
munication with the office of the Secretary for the Home De-
partment, instead of being left to the vigilance and jealousy
of -the public, and the occasional exertions of eminent
lawyers.
Mr. PEEL said, that from the notices of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, the House, very likely, was to be called
upon to exercise its discretion in a grave and important manner
—namely, to consider of measures to be taken for the removal
of an officer of justice, whose situation was held as indepen-
dently of the Crown as any of the Judges of the land, and who
could only be removed eventually by the agreement of both
Houses of Parliament. He admitted that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had taken the more correct and moderate plan, by
moving first tin the printing of the petition. Nor would he
have objected at all to the course of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, having no intention to obstruct the investigation,
but•that he thought that enough notice"had not been given on
the, point of producing the affidavits, which part of the motion
was now mentioned for the first time. A. question might
arise, would the affidavits show the whole -of the case ? If
not, should not some means be allowed to Mr. Kenrick to
complete the explanation ? There was another objection of
an incidental nature, which arose from the lateness of the
Session: lf, from the press of business, no opportunity
should present itself for going into the proposed investigation
after printing and circulating the papers, would it not "be a
great injustice, in that state of uncertainty, to allow Mr. Ken.
tick to labour under the reproaches meant by them to be CM.
veyed, for the space of six months before he could he heard in
his own justification. He thought, at any rate, that the aflida.
vits ought not to be printed.
Mr. DLNAI A N did not wish to press for the printing of the
affidavits. There could be no difficulty in finding an opportu-
nity, before the close of the Session, for this investigation. On
the other hand, it was impossible for the House not to see the
gross impropriety of allowing a Gentleman implicated in so
grievous a charge, to go into another part of the country to ad-
minister justice among his fellows as the representative of the
King's Majesty.
Sir it. WILLIAMS bore testimony to the honest and up-
right manner in which Mr. Kenrick was believed to discharge
his judicial dudes in Wales.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in order to temper the
opinion into which the House might be led, took this oppor-
tunity of saying-that the question in the Court of King's Bench
had never been. heard on the merits, but was thrown out on a '
point of form. One Counsel only was heard for Mr. Kenrick,
but it appeared that he had written a statement of the case in a
newspaper, and the Court held that it could not grant a cri-
minal information to a writer in a public newspaper. All that
lie had to request for Mr. Kenrick was, that the House would
reserve its judgment for the investigation. He himself was re-
lieved from much difficulty by the-elesire of Mr. Kenrick that
the House should proceed. •
Mr. SCAR LETT thought that the affiaariti ought not to
be printed; they might be laid upon the table; anti Mr. Ken-
rick could intrust any friends of his within the House. to make
the proper answers to the allegations of the petition.
Mr. WYNN observed upon the hardship of proceeding
against a gentleman upon the matter of sworn affidavits, when
it might be urged against any thing which could be advanced
for !inn in the unaworn examinations before the House, that
equal credit could nut be_ given to it because it was not upon
oath.
Mr. STURGES iiOURNE thought that there would not
be time enough for going through the investigiitiow before the
dose of the Session, considering that the House of Lords must
go over the sanie ground after this House had done with
He thought the Motion ought to have been made a month
sooner.
Mr. H. SUMNE sible that the R thought it impos 'House or
the Governnient should be wiUing to allow tide Gentleman to
resume the eaereise of high judicial functions, until he was
cleared front this charge brought against him._ What mar,
among those who had to look up to him for justice could have
any confidence in the worth of his judgment ? He wished
while he was up to correct a mistake of his Hon. and Learned
Friend near bilu, who lied represented the facts of the trial

in which Mr. Keilrick w defendant, as if the prosecutor hid
compromised with Mr. Kenrick. The offer of compromise; as
he understood the case from very good authority, was first made

from Mr. Kenrick. • - 7
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that the verdict was
taken against Mr. Kenrick fur the M. damages, and costs as
between solicitor and client. The parties themselves did not
compromise, and he could not now aver with safety from which
of the Counsel the offer first eaine.
Mr. PEEL wished that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
hail cast his motioninto a more tangible form, by reducing At
to a charge such as the forms of their proceedings might more
conveniently entertain.
Mc. DENMAN denied that it was any part of his duty to
bring a charge against the gentleman whose conduct was to be
called in question,. His part would be completed by bringing
it to a complete investigation. It had been put upon him as it
he had said, or intimated, that the affidavits contained the
whole of the case. lie had said no such thing. _What he had
said was, that Mr. Kenrick's own affidavits made the whole
of the case against him ;• and he now repeated it, that those
affidavits (not produced in defence, for Mr. Kenrick was the
plaintiff ), -which turned his case out of Court, of themselves
proved a case which made him out as utterly unfit for the situa-
tion of a judge.
/llr. WYNN advised the 'House to be cautions,. and to pro-
ceed by the safest precedents. The proper form for the motion,
he rather thought, would be a charge against the individual.=
That was the course taken in the cases of Baron Page accused
of bribery, and of Lord Ellenbornugh when charged with mal-
practice by Lord Cochrane. Both charges failed, but the form
of proceeding was perfectly regular, and applicable to all other
cases of this nature. If the affidavits were produced, it would
be impossible for Hon. Gentlemen to divest their minds of this
impression—that the charges against Mr. Kenrick would be
upon oath, while his reply or defence would of necessity rest
only upon his simple asseveration. Ile thought the preferable
course would be to refer the whole matter to a Committee, as
l in the case of the Chief Baron of Ireland.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought it would be the greatest kind-
ness to the individual to proceed with all possibl dispatch to
the investigation of this ease. It would be also only what
was just towards him. Ile knew that the individual whose
name was now brought into question would' willingly, 'ax
far as depended on himself, wave all forms in the busi-
ness ; and that his only .anxiety was for the Immediate insti
tution of an inquiry, which he was quite ready totneet—( Year !
—That gentleman felt that he could not, consistently with his
own notions of the duties which he had had the honour of
being appointed to discharge, continue to execute the important
functions of a Magistrate until he had had the opportunity of
clearing himself from these serious charges.--:( ear!)—Fie (Sir
M. W. Ridley) knew nothing of the matter, of his own personal
knowledge ; but. was quite aware of the earnest desire entertain-
ed by the individual hiniself, that the House would proceed as
quickly as possible to investigate the question.

Mr. CANNING recollected to have heard something of the
imputed misconduct of this gentleman.; but he could safely
declare that he had not read one word about the subject up to
the present moment. From what he had been able, however,
to collect, he thought that the course proposed by the Ilon.
and Learned Gentleman was, in principle, perfectly fair; and
after what had just been stated by the Hon. Baronet, would be
.only just to the individual himself. As he (Mr. Canning) un- ,
derstood him, that lion. and Learned Gentleman proposed to
lay upon the table, however, nut the substantive charge coupled
with the documents referred to,but the sworn documents them-
selves, to which, with all the good-will which in such a case the
House might be disposed to indulge towards the party, it was
impossible that the party should have any opportunity of op-
posing testimony of equal authority ; this House having no
,forms by-which it was enabled to administer oaths to witnesses.
Ifi.therefore, this court were to be pursued, the house would
effect this inequality between the two parties that would be be-
fore it—namely, that the charge would.be ou oath, and the an-
swer would norbe.-.--(fltar!)—tiow, did ,he (Mr. Canning)
from hence infer that no charge should be brought before them
against Mr. Kenrick ? No such thing. But he contended that
the charge should come on as on the solemn assertion of the
party preferring it, so as to make the negation of the party
against whom such charge was preferred of equal authority,
as to form, with the affirmatiOn of the petitioner. On there
grounds, but without at all meaning to say that such a duty
was necessarily imposed on thellon. Menthes -for Nottingham,
he thought that lion. and 'Learned Gentleman should
:put the
charge •in some shape or other, in which it would be fairly and
equally met. Again, the affidavits, if produced, might contain
a great deal of totally irrelevantlnatter, so that the individual
might not know which of them, or which parts of them, it
would be necessary for him to answer. and which not. But if
the Hun. and Learned Gentleman would be good enough to put
the charge-in some such form as seemed to havibeen appointed
in the •case.of Judge Page, the natural consequence would be,
that this-case would then be considered as soon as possible by
the House. By the Mode at;present proposed, in the motion of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, there would be this glaring
-injustice effected—that the person who was accused would be
put, as to testimony, in a decidedly • worse condition than the
accuser—that he.would be-disabled from defending himself with
as good effect wx the party preferring the charge would be able

to prefer it.—("[ear!)
The petition 'Was then read. It was from Robert Canfor, of
Stoke NewingtOn (a butcher), praying that the House would
institute an inquiry into the truth of the statements contained
in his petition, and adopt such .measures in relation thereto as
it might think fit. • •
-On the qtrestion " that it do lie upon the table,"
'Mr. DENMAN took the opportunity of noticing the singu-
lar situation in which any man must stand in that House who
brought forward matters of this kind. Ile should rather have
thought, that bad he-introduced this question in the total ab-
sence of any affidavits- to support it, it would have been objected
to him " that there was nothing in the case he had brought
under their notice—( Hear !)—that it was matter he had picked
up on mere hearsay, God knows where—that it was altogether
averment merely, and not upon oath." But it now seemed,
that the objection arged in this vise was, that the charge ass
too solemn ; and that the disclaimer on the other side could
not be equally so.—(Hear !)—Now, really in that case of the
Chief Baron of Ireland, which was brought forward by the
Honourable Member for Limerick, and which had been
adverted to by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Wynn), he could ,not recollect that any difficulty of this
kind was started. There the only objection, if any, that
was made was, that the statement was unfortunately but too
1 true. The fact was, that in that case Commissioners were
appointed to inquire -into the business; there was no lath-
stantive charge; but. the House proceeded upon a certain
number of facts on which those Commissioner% had report-
ed. Now, how was the objection in this case advanced on
the other side of the house -to be met ? As far as he could
be supposed to know -any thing of the facts imputed as against
this individual, he (Mr. Denman) charged him with gross mis-
conduct. But then it wai, said that he should not do that, ex-
cept he brought in the affidavits upon which the judgment bad
taken place. Why, • he again asserted, and for about the
tenth time, those affidavits did not contain the charge that was
now meant to be preferred. They would only show the mode
in which Mr. Kenrick managed to get rid of that question by
bringing his charge of libel against-the Morning Chronicle.
He (Mr. Denman) now proposed, therefore, to have laid upon
the table the affidavits made • by Mr. Kenrick himself, and by
him brought forward in support of his application for a criminal
information against the editor of the Morning Chronicle, to-
gether with a copy of that letter-of which lie had been proved
to be the author, addressed to the -Stamford News, and which
had prevented him from-having-his rule made absolute.
Mr. CANNING obierved, that iii the case of the Chief
Baron, the party was accused before his accusers were ex-
amined by the House; and therefore his asseverations and
theirs were of equal weight.
Mr. SPRING RICE said a few words, which we did not
distinctly bear, to correct aome misapprehension of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, in regard to the course which had been
adopted in the case ()fait Chief Baron.
Mr. BARING-really thought that the objections taken to
the motion of his Hon. and-Learned Friend were such as might
almost induce people to suppose, though he was perfectly sure
such was not, in fact, the case, that Ministers had some desire
to screen the individual complained of from the effect of the in-
quiries proper to be instituted by that House.—(Hear!)—lle
thought, that great responsibility attached to some quarter or
other for not having already brought a case of this importance—
after all that had happened in it—before the House, anti leaving
it to his lion. and Learned Friend to call upon Parliament to
institute the proposed inyestigation. The first intimation which
he (Mr. Baring) had received of this individual's conduct was
from perusing in the newspapers the speech of the King's Attor-
ney-General; and when it was considered that learned person
had made such charges in a public court of justice, it was quite
evident that they must be presumed 'to be known to the whole
kingdom. Supposing such aspeech bad been made by the Attor-
ney-General in respect of one of the Judges of the Courts at West-
minster, would it be possible that that persona.ge could be allowed
to remain one of the judges of the land? (H ear !) or, at least, that
, he should continue in that eminent station without the matter
of such a speech being made the subject of inquiry and investi-
gation,before that House ? And because Mr. Kenrick was only
a Judge of Wales, it could never be contended that it was not
eqtially essential such a course should be adopted in respect to
!)—lt was equally impossible to believe that the
King's Attorney-General could have made such a speech as he
had delivered on this subject in a Court of Justice, if he had
not the strongest moral conviction on his mind that the charges
which he had brought against Mr. Kenrick in the course of
it—
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL here observed, that that

spe,,eh was delivered by hi:n in his Capacity Of an Advocate
only.
Mr. BARING still thought that the. Hon. and Learned.
Gentleman would not have made such a speech without feeling
that there were strong grounds for it, and consequently for a
solemn investigation into the matter. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite had' told the House that they mutt suspend their
judgments on this case.; but, unfortunately, Mr. Kenrick
could not suspend his judgments, it should be recollected.—
He *as about to go his circuit; and surely because Wales was
a little and a distant plaCe, it would never he allowed that he
I should do so till Parliament had examined these charges. Was
a matter or such import to be postponed to next Session, merely
because it was brought in at so late a period of the Session,
and in such hot weather? His lion. and Learned Friend now
proposed to bring forward the case on the affidavits of Mr. Ken-
rick himself, who desired, it was said, that the inquiry should
be immediately proceed with. Now, on this account, there
was an end of all that complaint, surely, which Right lion.
Gentlemen had made of a want of reciprocity of evidence as
between the parties. •
I , Mr. DENMA N • repeated, that he would move for the pro-
Auction of the affidavits brought in, in the Court, by Mr. Ken-
rick ; and also the affidavit of Mr. James, about the letter sent
to the Stamibed Newt.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, Mr. PEEL, Mr. CANNING,
and Mr. WYNN successively explained, that they had opposed
the motion under the idea that Hon. and Learned Gentleman
desired :he production of all the affidavits ; but to this modified
'proposition they would consent. . -
Mr. DENMAN, after observing that he certainly thought it
would have been the most rational course to have all the affi-
davits, moved—" that there he laid before the House the affi-
davits filed by Mr. Kenrick, in support of his application for a
rule against William Clement; also the affidavit of Mr.
James, which was filed in order to prove that Mr. Kenrick was
the author of the letter published in the Stamford News."—
i Ordered. •

Mr. DENMAN gave notice that he would, hereafter move
that such affidavits be printed.
CHURCH ESTABLISHMENT OF IRELAND.

Mr. HUME on rising to
.submit a motion relative to the
present state of the Church Establishment in Ireland, could
assure the house that he was fully aware of the importance of
the question he was about to meet, and of the responsibility
attaching to any individual who introduced propositions of
this consequence into Parliament. But, being strongly im-
pressed with the opinion that much of the evils which had so
long afflicted Ireland arose from the present condition of its
Church-Establishment, and that that establishment, so far from
answering the purposes of its institution—the advancement Of
the welfare and happiness of the peopie--operaterl upon them to
imprecisely. contrary effect, he had determined to bring this Most
important subject fully before the House. De would haVe de-
clined to do so, but cleat he believed so long as that establish.
molt existed on its present footing, there could be neither
peace, unanimity, nor security for Ireland herself. He would
now shortly state the grounds upon which he had come to such
an opinion and why the House ought to entertain his pro-
siti' w
on, and,
at an early period of the next Session of Parlia-
ment,l to inquire into the state of this establishment, with a
view to efFecting such changes in it as the circumstances of the
times and the country might seem to require. Having in
three preceding Sessions entered at great length into the prin_
ciples, and stated the details upon which that proposition was
bottomed, he would not now detain the House by going over
the saute matters again. Many of the facts that he had ad-
vanced on former occasions in the discussion of this subject,
and which were then most strongly contested, had been
since conceded by those who then opposed him, and much
of the argument with which lie was then met had been
since, as .if it were by common consent, withdrawn : the
main object of his motion, therefore, he could not help
thinking had made some progress since he last stated it from
that place. He was as well aware as any man could be of the
necessity and importance of religious instruction in every com-
munity of people; and was quite satisfied, from his own ex-
perience in Scotland, of the benefits to be derived from-a sys-
tem, the pastors of which attended regularly to their sacred
duties—were never absent from the sphere in which they were
to be discharged, and were from January to December occupied
in the anxious care of those who were confided to their ministry.
From a system like this, much real benefit had always been,
and ever would, be derived ; the public approbation must
sanction it, and it would be found of the highest advantage
to the community among which it obtained. He did not
object, therefore, to the establishment as an establishment for
affording religious instruction to the people, but lie called
upon Parliament, as it formerly adopted the Protestant pro-
fession as the best calculated for the interest of the English
people, and the Irish reformed church as lest adapted for
Ireland, whether, in regard to the latter country, circuni-
stances had not since occurred which made it expedient for
the legislature to revise what it had so done ? If it should be
found that the present Irish Church Establishment was not
in any-respect adapted to the due discharge of the duties it had
to perform—or was larger than the state-of that country, or the
nature of its society, required—or was better, paid than was ne
ce.ssary, was it too much to say that the House would not be
performing their duty if they did not alter its condition ?
( Hear !)—Paley had described a church establishrnent to be
" only a means towards an end ;" and the same authority de-
clared that " religious establishments could not be shewn to
form any essential part of Christianity, but were only the means
of encouraging it; for it could not be proved that amonff the
early Christians there-was any religious establishment " I• rum
this authority he (Mr. Hume) inferred, that as Christians they
were not bound to any particular established form of wor-
ship; but that it was competent to the Legislature,_ as hereto.'
fore, to decide, if the establishment which it had formerly au-
tl:orised should be found not to haVe answered the ends pro.
posed, upon altering it; that as Parliament had, once de-
termined for the Protestant, and at another time for the
Roman Catholic religion, as the religion of the State ; so it
might again change its determination in this respect. It was a
favourite maxim with sonic, that with the estabushed religion
of any State, the State itself must fall. Ile thought a more
dangerous maxim was never broached, either as regarded the
welfare of the Government or of the church. The Hon. Gentle-
tleman then went on to contend that the church, in all ages, had
manifested its subserviency to the Government, which the lat-
ter had recompensed by the Rif„ of proportionate privileges and
property. But lie was of opinion that the Government should
always stand upon its own footing, independent of the Church ;
for though the religious instructions of the latter might improve
the morals, and therefore the happiness of the people, the close
connexion of State and Church had never benefitted either the
morals or the welfare of a nation. After disclaiming all im-
proper or unconstitutional intentions, which some, however;
might unjustly impute to him on the score of a motion of this
kind, he proceeded to state, that in looking to soinething which
took place in the time of King William 111., he really believed
that at one period that Monarch intended to make the Roman
Catholic religion the State religion of Ireland. In one of his
letters to the Irish Government, written preparatory to sonic
great public measure, it was well known that he requested
them to pass an Act for the establishment ofsuch a religion as
might be most agreeable to the general wishes of the people.—
(Hear !)—Circumstances intervened to prevent the accomplish-
ment of this injunction, and matter of endles; regret it must be
dint they should have done so ; for . had Ireland obtained
the Roman Catholic as her established religion in the
same way that Scotland had obtained the establishment of the
Presbyterian as her's, there was every reason to believe, look-
ing to what had happened in Ireland withinthe last 120 years,
that she would Intee enjoyed by this time a century of peace,
happiness' and prosperity, instead of anarchy and intserya-that
she would now have been a flourishing nation, and England,
instead of her jailer, as it were, would have been regarded by
her as her benefactress.—(Hear !)—ln what condition was
Scotland. when it was attempted to force upon her a ,religion
which was not more generally disliked by the Scotch than Pro-
testantism now was by the great body of the Irish. people ae...
Did not bloodshed, violence, and insubordination prevail,
till Presbyterianism was finally established a. the religion of
Scotland ?—( Hear I)—He was not now going to state whether
Protestantism or Presbyterianism, or' the Polytheism of
the Hindoos, or the faith of the Mussulmans, would he the
best system for this or that country. All his speech would
go to would be, to what the feelings, and the peace,
and the welfare' of Ireland required for its established form
of worship. This it would be the object of every good man,
and every friend to his country, to ascertain: He then went
on to argue that no history could show so unbroken a series of
discontents, misery, and violence as the history of Ireland
evinced ever since the Protestant religion had been there esta-
blished as that of the State. He had been most anxious to
bring this subject on at an earlier period of the Session ; but
had deferred the motion in deference to what he considered to
be one of paramount importance—namely, the proposition of
his Hon. Friend (Sir Francis Burdett) for the virtual eman-
cipation of time Roman Catholics of Ireland. As the measure
introduced by his Honourable Friend, however, had failed in
a subsequent stage, he was only the more anxious now to
bring the question which he was now discussing untier the
most serious consideration of the House. While the present
church establishment of Ireland remained on its present foot-
ing, there could be no peace or happiness for Ireland.—
Some people made a great outcry about the danger of any
proposals touching alterations in the church establishment ;
but their alarms, as Sir William Temple had well observed,
were rather for the wealth, and power, and dignities of the
Church Establishment, than for the safety of the Church. If
the number or revenue of the Protestant Bishops and Clergy of
the existing Irish Establishment were too large for the means,
the circumstances, or the prosperity of the people, surely the
system ought immediately to be revised. The lion. Gentle-
1111W went on to argue, that the only real right in property was

derived from the law, told that the power which conferred upite3
the Church the possession it held, could, if the public good
seemed to require it. take it away. This principle had beets
acted upon at the Reformation, and experience bad proved its
wisdom and usefulness. He denied, however; that it could be
said that a churchman had.the same interest in the benefice be
held as any other individual Might have in a freehold estate
which he had bought ; because there was no right either of sale
during his life, or disposition after his death, vested in a Clergy-
man ; and any provision which the _Legislature might make for
the disposition of ecclesiastical benefices. might be enforced
with perfect justice (he thought, too, with great propriety)
after the death of the living incumbents. The original institu-
tion of these benefices bed been with a view to provide for the
education of the poor; hut this end had not been accomplished.
In Ireland the number of Catholics who could not, of course.
avail themselves of the advantages of education by Proteitant
clergymen, was nearly seven millions. The numbers of the
Catholic population of Ireland, compared With the ProteStants,
were as one to seven ; the one-seventh being composed of per-
sons helongbtg to the established church and to dissenting sects.
For this small proportion, this one-fourteenth of the established _
church, the numbers of clergymen of various sorts. exceeded'
500. The amount of property in the hands of these clergy
men were, as he thought he could convince the House, in every
case too large. The bishopricks, the value of which might be-
accurately estimated as Well from the papers on the table of the
House as from the statistical account of Ireland published
by Mr. Wakefield, were of an extent cud value which no-
man could pretend to justify. That of Armagh appeared
to contain d 3,270 acres, and was of the annual value of
51,880/. ; that of Cloglier, 27,070 acres, produced annually-
-31,5891. What he would propose to do with these over- •
grown sees was 'what had been sticcesaftilly practised be-
fore. It bad at a former period been thund expedient in
Ireland to reduce the numbers of the clergy by uniting. •
bishopric. and parishes. Ele sew, therefore, no mason why the
numbers should not now again be doubled up.—(Laughter.)=--
He thought that four Bishops, instead of the present number.
of 22, would be enough to direct the spiritual affitiri of the Pro-
testants in Ireland. He thought that every man—he was sure'
every reasonable man—upon considering the amount of pro-
perty held by the various Bishops of Ireland, would agree
with him that it was much too large to be left in the hands of
any individuals performing such functions as they were called
upon for. He did • not mean, he said, to reflect personally
upon any any of the Bishops ; because he durst bay if he were
one of them, he should be-as glad as they were to retain the
possession of their large incomes.—(A laugh.)-aStill he was sure
that one-hundredth part of the sums now paid would be an
ample remuneration for as many Bishops as were really
necessary. The lion. Member then alluded to a speech tie-
livered by the Bishop of Limerick in the House of Lords,
and which, he said, as the Right Rev. Prelate had chosen to
publish -it, and so. send it to the world, he had a right to
remark upon. The language of the Bishop, who said that ha•
(Mr. Hume) had used in his statement to the House last year
language better suited for the table of the convicted libeller on
Ludgate-hill than for a Member of Parliament, was at least
somewhat harsh and angry. It must be admitted that these
were ungentle terms, anti although they came from a Bishop
were rather savouring of abuse.—(A laugh.)—But he had •
graver objections against the Bishop—that of his statements
being untrue. The Bishop charged him (Mr. Hume) with
having said there 531 non-residents ; and a Right Hon. Gen-
tleman not now present (Mr. Plunkett) said in the House, oti
the authority of the Bishop, that there were only from 20 to 30- •
—This was, however, at the best, -only an evasion of the fact.
because lie (Mr. Hume) called' non-residents all clergymen
who did not actually reside upon the livings they held; but
the Bishops, who looked at these things in a different point of
view, thought that although a clergyman was not resident, yet
if he had any other duties to perform, this circumstance ex-
cused his absence, and made him, as lie called it, virtually.re-
sident. He (Mr. Hume) was however prepared to substantiate .
his own statement, and as far as regarded the diocese, of Lime-
rick and of Ardfert end Aghadoe, to which alone it was neces-
sary on this occasion to allude, he would read an extract front
the Parliamentary Papers of 1824, by which it appeared that
in Limerick there were 51 benefices and incumbents, of whom
there were 21 non-residents; in Ardfert and Aghadoe, 44 bene-
fices and incumbents, -of whom there were 22 non-residents
making in the whole 95 benefices, of the incumbents of which,
43 are non-residents, including 9 dignitaries of the see. But
yet the Bishop of Limerick, in the pointed speech lie had
quoted, averred, of his own knowledge, " that in his own dio-
cese there is not one clergyman who (is non-resident) wantonly
deserts his appointed sphere of duty." In the Bishop's sense..
indeed, there were few non-resident clergy in Ireland; for
he explained further, that " no clergyman is accounted st non-
resident who is employed in parochial duties in any part oi
the country ;" so that if an incumbent has three or ten bene-
fices, and discharged the duties in one of them, he was not
to be considered a non-resident on the other two or nine. Mai
saidtothca otn ititr, at cid.
(Mr. Hume s) statement had also encountered another reverend-
opponent in the person of the Archbishop of Cashel, who, in'
thathis c
statementharg e to pia s dfiaorcaesserieni
altBe
(214
t,o not
hesitate
lie
his
see.
terford every incumbent was resident, and that in Lismoeconlf
six incumbents could be questioned as to the non-residence
meaning, perhaps, to give to non-residence the same exteos'e7
explanation as the Bishop of Limerick. But the fact appear
to be," by the Parliamentary returns of the same year, that to
Waterford there were 10 benefices and incumbents, of whflia,
there were three non-residents ; and in Lismore 42 benefi:e
and incumbents, of whom there were 20 non-re:Mei*
making in the total 52 benefices, and of these 23 were aloe_ge
The reasons given for the non-residence of sonic of these rie•
sons were singular enough. One was supposed by ,
Bishops to be reasonably exempt from residing on his ten
ing, because lie was a -surrogate elsewhere, and had the &Pr.%
of that office to perform another; because he resided .0
his deanery in Dublin, and so on. lie should now dittntte..
this subject, to which he had only been induced to allude,Xli,
cause the Bishop of Limerick did not hesitate to charge Tel/
with having made incorrect statements, and said that if (t,"Tg
were occasioned by the misrepresentations ofothers, sh tte,
regret them, but that if they were wilfully put forward, To
• he should find it painful to apply to them the epithet wit e_
they would deserve. This he (Mr. Hume) thought was st,,l'o'4
cinien of what was meant by the common expression of " Winos
a man in a genteel way, that he lied." If it were so, be Ir I•iv
say that it came with with a peculiarly ill grace from 11
Rev. Person whose book was hill of lies. lie might excuse
mis-statements in any ingenious way he would—he mi htLer
vide a salvo for his conscience `by means of some quitease.
explanation of what non-residence meant, but still he (airea,
flume) thought he would fail to persuade persons, who e mpg
things by their right names, that residence meant any tulas
but an incumbent's living upon his benefice, and among Whe
flock the care of whose souls he was enstrusted with. Oho
Honourable Member then proceeded to observe, that :re
conduct of the clergy, in collecting their tithes, was vet:Yee:iv •
pressive. tie had in his possession warrants which had u ins•
issued to levy a tithe of twopence-halfpenny. Another p?.
,e..
to which he was desirous of calling the attention of the firths
was the constitution of Consistorial Courts. It was %idle
first importance that the judges who had to decide upon_bata
causes should be impartial; but how could that be,
.1'
„„i.
clergymen were allowed to act as judges ? It was, in Itso
nion, extremely impolitic to permit clergymen to estetcoieeelo.
judicial functions. By doing so, they only brought woo.
selves into contempt. In conclusion, the Hon. ittensber, the
tended, that if he had shown, as be thought he had, th.`oes
Church of Ireland did not fulfil the object for which Pio,
instituted, it was perfectly proper for Parliament to reut the
it. He then moved the following resolutions :—'`
property now in the possession of the Established se"legie
in Ireland is public property, under the controul of the,
slature, and applicable to such purposes as in its ws..°.d Of
may deem beneficial for the best interests of religiOns r„
fd Of
the community at large, due regard being had to the eit'7ro,
every person in the actual enjoyment of any part of sue ruin
perty." "2d, that this House will early in the next Defet
inquire whether the Establishment of the Church of Irelrolds
not greater than is commensurate with its services, betaseottic
regard to the number of persons employed, and the
which they receive."
Sir F. BURDETT seconded the motion. be ifY
Mr. CANNING said, that however much he might for
(dined to find fault with the Ilon. Member for Aberneec natL
the -tone of his speech, and the proposition which h; doe
brought forward, he could not say of him that he ha eureei,
about his business in a covert way—that he had kept batesaeo
free and frank explanation of the experiment which he
f% amble
to prevail upon the House to try with respect to the
Establishment of Ireland. He must do the Ildn,lreelt
Member the justice to say, that he had plainly
.an urea
stated the object be had in view, which had been tbeit,,
others on former occasions, as to the neceseary result co tan
arguments, but which he did not recollect any individual
and
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen to have boldly avowed the
placed in the front of the battle. Before he subroit te"O
Hoase a very few observations, he would request the equscil
read the article of the Act of Union which related to the
establishment in Ire
readland. 101"
the fifth article of the Act Of 0 tiP 1
which declared that die churches of England and Delano
sojeee
be united in one Protestant Episcopalian church, to ti to I)
to the Same laws, and that arrangement should he tiu'e
a fundamental part of the Union. that e
Mr. CANNING resumed.—lt was an advantage secfa
ae use - sO
coming to the Consideration of the question, the P°100)901
placed in no circumstances of uncertainty, they were not iB. atureo
in mystery and forgotten time. The sense of the isegis:aoct°llo
the subject was not to be gathered from statutes, the con.
ve fro
of which might be doubtful or which might be ineffeet'o yr
disuse: but they had a clear distinct authority, onlY