The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-17 00:00:00

financial year began also at an earlier period. Before
the change made by Lnrd Althorp, the financial year
began on the sth of January, now it began on the sth of
April. The Honourable Gentleman was therefore call•.
ing on the Finance Minister of the present period to do
more than the Finance Minister of former times,
because he was now called on to state the financial
prospects of the year before it had begun. If the Hon.
Gentleman referred to the experience of the last twelve
or fifteen years, he would not find a single instance in
which the income was stated before the estimates. No
persons could be more anxious to effect any practical re-
duction than the Government. They were now endea-
vouring to revise the minor establishments, the estimates
for which were not yet laid on the table of the House,
with a view to making reductions in them. He was net
anxious to lay them before the House till they had as-
certained what reductions were practicable consistently
with the efficient working of these establishments. He
thought it would bo more satisfactory that he should
state to the House the probable income and expenditure
when he felt himself enabled to do so, than that he
should take that course when he could not state them
with equal accuracy. They had been stated in general
terms already. If that was all that his Hon. Friend re-
quired, and that was all that he professed to require,
then he did not see the use of his motion; and in that
sense he called on the House to reject it, in order that
they might go into Committee of Supply. They could
then, and not till then, properly discuss whether the es-
timates they proposed should bereduced or not.—(Hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said that, although he was dis-
posed to place but little confidence in the motion of the
Hon. Member for Montrose, seeing that he always sup-
ported the Government, he would vote for his proposi-
tion on the present occasion.
Mr. COBDEN said that the answer given by the
Right Hon. Gentleman to the proposal of his Hon.
Friend was not a very satisfactory one. The Right Hon.
Gentleman said that his Hon. Friend proposed what was
impossible.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
what he stated was that he could not give an accurate
account before the sth of April.
Mr. COBDEN—But where was the necessity of
voting the supplies before the sth of April?—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") Even if it were impossible to postpone
them till after that period, they might at least have an
approximate statement as to the expenditure and
sources of income before the sth of April.—(Hear,
hear.) He wanted to have the whole estimate of ex-
penditure and income before them, but they did not
get that. They got the army, navy, and ordnance
estimates, but they had not got the miscellaneous esti-
mates yet.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
made use of one argument which seemed to him to be
very extraordinary—namely, that they probably might
be in a state of war—that the enemy's fleet might be
ravaging the coast.—(" No, no," from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer.) Certainly the Hon. Gentleman made
use of that argument.—(No, no.) Surely he did not
misrepresent the Hon. Gentleman.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—You do
indeed.

Mr. COBDEN could not see how he misrepresented
his Right Hon. Friend, for he surely put the possible
case of an enemy ravaging the coast. That was the
first argument used by him. It assumed that after 33
years of peace they were about to go to war. This con-
stant tendency of considering war as the normal state of
society was what he objected to.—(Hear, hear.) At
all events, while they were at peace, let them have the
advantage of peace.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Let
them have at the beginning of the session the estimate
of what the income and expenditure were likely to be.
Although he admitted that the affairs of the nation
were different from those of an individual, inasmuch
as it might not be always in their power to confine
the expenditure of a nation within its estimated income,
yet, even in the affairs of a nation, the expenditure
must in some measure be regulated by the income, be-
cause there was a limit to the income of a nation.
When the nation at large was calling out for a re-
duction of expenditure, they ought to have the case
placed plainly before them; and if they had the whole
estimates before them, they would be the better able
to judge, by reference to the sources of income, whether
they could fairly and legitimately vote the expenditure,
than they could when they were in total ignorance
where the income was to come from.—(Hear, hear)
The Right Hon. Gentleman knew from fortnight to
fortnight what the progress of the income was—
he knew what the progress of the Excise and Customs
was. It appeared to him that it was for the House
and country also to know, as far as possible, the state
of the national resources. Surely there was nothing
unreasonable in that. He did not propose to embarrass
Government, or to throw any impediment or inconve-
nience in their way, by refusing to vote money on ac-
count. He hoped, therefore, his Hon. Friend would
press his motion, and, if unsuccessful now, he trusted he
would move at another time a substantive motion, that on
all future occasions before the vote of supply an approxi-
mate estimate should be given of the income and expen-
diture of the country.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
his Hon. Friend had misrepresented what he said--no
doubt unintentionally. He put the case of war merely
as an illustration, without the slightest reference to the
present or any other time, to show how impossible it
would be under certain circumstances to carry out the
course proposed for adoption by the Hon. Member for
Montrose.

Mr. HUME said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman
had read his resolution he would see that he did not ask
for an accurate account. There was the instance of
Lord Althorp in 1834, and, subsequently, of Mr. Gaul-
burn, for the course he proposed.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ...
48
Against it ... 97
Majority 8
—49
The House then went into Committee of Supply.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WARD said that for reasons sufficiently obvious,
he deferred making any observations in answer to the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Wil-
loughby) till he commenced making his general state-
ment to the Committee. In his main observations he
(Mr. Ward) entirely concurred. There was much truth
in the observation that if an excess in the naval expendi-
ture was to occur perpetually from year to year,
the estimates could not fairly be regarded as
a just criterion of the national expenditure,
and that • the House of Commons was not only
entitled to call for an explanation of that excess, but
even not to allow it to pass without animadversion, if it
could not be satisfactorily explained. The present was
the third vote that he moved since he became Secretary
to the Amiralty, and he might say the first for which
the present board were entirely responsible. There was
first the excess of 185,000/. for the years 1845-6. This
must be considered rather in the light of a supplemen-
tary vote than an excess. It was an addition to the
navy estimates sanctioned under peculiar circumstances
by the Treasury, and of which the present Board of
Admiralty knew nothing. The money was expended
before the present Government came into office, and the
Hon Gentleman opposite and the then Chancellor of the
Exchequer would, he had no doubt, assign satisfac-
tory reasons for that excess. Then for the excess
of the year 1846-7, the present Board of Admiralty
were only partially responsible, because the money
was raised upon the estimate of their prede-
cessors in office. Then came the excess of 1847-8,
amounting to 323,367/.—a large excess undoubtedly,
and the first for which the present board were exclu-
sively responsible, and the weight of that responsibility
he did not at all desire to underrate. He admitted
the force of the argument urged by the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite against this unsatisfactory system. He
thought that votes of this sort might be explained and
excused, but could never be entirely justified.—(Hear,
hear.) The House was prepared for the part of an ex-
cess for twelve months, though not to the amount which
resulted at the end of the year. He stated in the House
and more at large before the Committee that the causes
of this excess were three: the first was the increase in
the wages of seamen, which made a difference to the
amount of 70,3241.; the second was that they had an
average of 3,969 men more on the books than had been
voted.—(Hear, hear.) The cost on this account was
245,0001. in 1847.8, as compared with 123,0001. for the
year 1848-7. The third cause was on account of vic-
tuals, clothing, and medical stores; the amount of that
thesetThehye
d
estimate was 308,8641. In addition to this there was the
cost of the dockyard battalions. The estimate on this
head was in the first instance conjectural, because they
could not know how many men would enter into
battalions, as it was to be a purely voluntary en-
trance on the part of the men. The list had been filled
lwuipsotuml beingutcahk
thuse mtho er
fie
most
oeds
tu rapidlyp t teh
economical, than they h
meyod e
Governmento anticipated.f considered
proceeding,
if
they made arrangements at once for their organization,
drilling, and clothing. The latter, which was a most
expensive item, would be the last for five years. The
total excess on this ground was 52,000/. If they erred
in respect to these dockyard battalions he could only ex-
cp
Withor
ne sf
os
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aryre
dgwritetoht , t
tbhheuet
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cause,ns tgepo ft a
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ye boyue
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tainty entered into it, because men who entered the ser-
vice three or four years ago might only be receiving
their wages in the current, financial year ; and the Ad-
miralty
found it extremely difficult to deal with that
ma tt e r .
allowing ( ea a
r h ea
greaterr.)
m regardbe r
of to
menth e second
booksofarou e n
—the
than had been voted—that he admitted to be the root of
anya evil.lltheexcessin th
thing against was
Mr. Hume.) He did not mean that in the sense in
which his Hon. Friend perhaps understood it; but, at all
events, it was the great thing to be guarded against.
The present board had given orders for a very large re-
duction of men three months after they came into office,
when there was an average of 3,436 above the number
voted. But then came the Irish relief service, the dis-
turbances in New Zealand, the Kafir war, the detention
of ships in the Rio de la Plata, the disturbances in China
and Borneo, in consequence of which the commanders
at these stations felt themselves obliged to retain the full
complement of their vessels. The number of men above
the number voted for 1847.8 was on the Ist of March
5,300, the next month 4,778, next month 3,717, and the
following month 4,134. The expenses connected with
that single demand for the Irish service were almost in-
calculable. At ono period there worn on the coast one
flag-ship, eight receivinships, three troop-ships, and
thirty-one steam-vessels,g- five colliers and tenders, one
naval transport, and two sailing-frigates. There were
in all fifty-one vessels, with 3,100 men, besides a bat•
talion of marines stationed at Spike Island. The
price of coals rose from an average of 16s. to 21. per
ton, because during the whole of that fearful period
there was no such thing as a return cargo to be ob-
ta;ned, and freights were consequently doubled. All
these expenses had gone to swell that excess for which
the' Government were justly held responsible. No doubt
the Treasury had paid alportion of that extra expense;
butit was not a large portion, for there were few persons
With whew he lea ilviskycl S 9 settle Acc94l4 gin his

Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.-
(Laughter.) Somehow or other, in any matter between
' the Treasury and Admiralty, the former always had the
best of the bargain. Under these circumstances, could
the House wonder at the fact, that the excess under Nos.
1 and 2, had in the last year amounted to 303,4421. He
had never attempted to disguise the fact-indeed, he
had stated last year-that the number of men borne had
greatly exceeded the number voted, and that unless it
could be brought down, a large excess was inevitable.
(Hear.) Some of the causes of the excess had
been in operation during the past year. It ap-
peared from a return made up to the Ist of December,
1848, that instead of the average cost having been
361. 3s. I Id. per man, it had been during the first ten
months of the year 39/. 95., and it had taken ten months to
work down the excess of 3,947 men above the vote to
350 men below it. Whatever responsibilty was attached
to that excess belonged entirely to Lord Auckland's ad-
ministration of the Admiralty. His Right Hon. Friend
near him (Sir F. Baring), had nothing whatever to do
with it. To him (Mr. Ward) it had been a subject of
perpetual anxiety, as impairing, if not endangering, the
administration of naval affairs by his late lamented friend
Lord Auckland, which had, he believed, been conducted
with as pure a spirit and with as great a regard fur the
public interest as had ever been manifested by any man
holding a public situation.-(llear, hear.) And he would
take that opportunity of declaring, as the result of two
years' experience, that he had never known a public
man who had a better sense of the responsibilities
which attached to the office than that Noble Lord.
By his untiring industry, by his impartiality in the
disposal of patronage, and his perfect self-command, he
had gained the highest esteem'both of his Gallant Friends
and of himself, and he regretted that his departure
should have robbed him of the credit of a more econo-
mical administration of affairs.-(Cheers.) Every cause
which had led to excess in past years had now been re-
moved. While the Admiralty had taken a sufficient
margin as regarded the number of men, they had also
brought the number within the limits of? the vote, and
he felt sure that his Right Hon. Friend would maintain
his vantage ground firmly and vigorously. He should
be very much surprised if the past year was not the last
one of excess in a time of peace.-(Hear.) With regard
to the estimates of the present year, the discussions
which had taken place on the national expenditure had
sufficiently warned him that in submitting them to the
House he had no easy task to perform.-(Hear, hear.)
He did not say that they would please no party; because
he believed that there was both there and in the country
a party of practical and moderate men to whom any
Government might safely appeal, if it showed
an honest desire to combine economy with
efficiency in the public service.-(Hear, hear.) He
knew, however, that there were also two parties, one of
whom always thought that the Government had done too
little, while the other were constantly complaining that
they had done too much. He was aware that there
were soma who thought that, however the circumstances
of this world might vary, in dealing with the great bul-
wark of England, not a ship or a man should be touched;
and he knew too, full well, that he had in his immediate
neighbourhood Hon. Members who would tell him that
the reductions which ho was about to propose were
merely a miserable instalment of what the country had a
right to expect.-(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume, suc-
ceeded by a laugh.) He had thought so.-(Laughter.)
Such gentlemen would not be satisfied with anything
short of the standard of 1835, a standard which, so far as
the navy was concerned, had been selected with as little
regard to past experience as to the present wants and
requirements of the country.-(Cheers.) It Wai not a
very creditable coincidence that, while all parties in
that House had concurred in taking that standard at
the moment, because they were engaged in a struggle
for popularity and place, no party had subsequently
adhered to it. In the very next year, without the
slightest opposition, the number of men was raised,
under Lord Melbourne's government from 15,000 to
22,000, and under the administration of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, it was further in-
creased to 26,000. The number was then increased to
27,500, and in the years 1848-49 the number was in-
creased, with the addition of marines, to 43,000 men.
It was impossible to assign specific reasons for such
fluctuations. Something must be taken on trust, some
thing yielded to discretion; but certain it was that the
House of Commons had acquiesced in every increase.-
(Hear, hear.) Now, happily, instead of leaving the
House to either of the two extremes, the Committee of
last year had recommended a middle course, in the pro-
priety of adopting which, as he stated in August last, the
Admiralty entirely concurred. He then stated that the
Admiralty agreed with the Committee that the navy was
the proper arm of England, and that nothing but an ex-
cessive and ill-managed expenditure could deprive it of
the respect which it had previously enjoyed. He fur-
ther said that the Admiralty were prepared to adopt the
recommendation of the Committee, that there should be
a general revision of the naval stations. The stations
had been revised, and he thought that with a reduction
of 3,000 men the Admiralty could provide satisfactorily
for the honour and protection of the country.-(Cheers.)
Since that time his Hon. Friend the, Member for Mon-
trose had taken the matter into his capacious head
--(Great laughter.) To his (Mr. Ward's great sur-
prise, however, instead of adopting the standard of
1835, his Hon. Friend had created a new one of his
own. He thought, perhaps, that if he proposed to go
back to 15,000 seamen, 2,000 boys, and 9,000 marines.
he could hardly expect the House to adopt his proposal.
He had, therefore, chosen a very convenient half-way
house-35,000 men-where he intended to stop
till he could go further.-(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Hume.) Now, of course, he did not think that
a reduction of 8,000 men from the number voted
last year was so objectionable, so imprudent, or so
unsafe as the reduction of 16,000 proposed by his
Honourable Friend the Member for the West Riding
('dr. Cobden), but at the same time it was much too
large, much too imprudent, and much too unsafe for the
Government to assent to it. The Government proposed
a reduction of 3,000 men; his Hon. Friend's proposition
went 5,000 men below that of the Government, and after
his Hon. Friend's reasons had been stated it would be
for the House to decide between the two. He came
now to the changes in form which would be found in
the estimates. In that respect every recommendation
of the Committee had been attended to. In vote No. 1,
at p. 8, the House would find " the monthly excess of
men during the present financial year;" under No. 5,
the " scientific branch," including the cost of surveys;"
under No. 10, " naval stores for the building, repair,
and outfit of the fleet," &c; under No. 11, " new works,
improvements, and repairs;" under No. 13 was an ana-
lysis of the expenditure of 1847-48; under 18, the Home
Department disappeared from the estimates altogether,
being tranferred to the miscellaneous estimates; and
under what was No. 19 the whole cost of the con-
tract packet service was put under the head of Post-
office department, 50,0001. being thus added to the mis-
cellaneous estimates. Now the House had here not only
the gross estimate and the net estimate, but they had
also the revised net estimate; in other words, the esti-
mate from which his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor
of the Exchequer deducted 208,0001. in August last,
under votes 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 19, which were given
in a separate table in page 2. The House would, how-
ever, perceive that the gross estimate was the only fair
point of comparison between these estimates and the
estimates of last year; because what had hitherto ap-
peared as appropriations in aid were now paid into the
Exchequer, and the country received the benefit. The
gross unrevised estimate on nineteen votes for 1848-9,
was 7,518,610/. The decrease on votes 1,2, 5,6, 7,8,
10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, and 19 amounted to no less
than 1,703,3021.; the increase on votes 3,9, 14, and 16,
amounted to 12,2001. The apparent saving was 1,691,1021.
From this was to be deducted the whole of vote 18, for the
home department, transferred to the miscellaneous esti-
mates 53,9501.; 611,6621. being deducted for contract
packets, and 183,195/. for the packet service-Queen's
vessels, stores, repairs, &c., there was a total re-
duction of 848,8071., leaving as the actual saving on
votes No. I to 17,842,2951., as compared with the unre-
vised gross estimate of last year ; the savicg on the con-
tract packets being 25,6461., and on Queen's vessels,
stores, repairs, &e., 75,515/. The decrease on the two
estimates was 938,8561., and if there were deducted for
saving by revised estimate of 1848 9, 208,0001., the net
actual saving upon the estimates of 1849-50 would
amount to 730,8561. Now, he might be told that there
was some truth in these figures, and that he sought to
make a comparison between the revised estimate of this
year and of 1849 as actually voted. Many of the cal-
culations made evidently turned on that point, and it was
to that he attributed the monstrous discrepancies as to
the amount of saving which, by some, had been reckoned
at upwards of 900,0001., while others had made it as low
as 366,0001. But if the revised estimate and the actual
vote of last year were compared, the result would be
the same. The net revised estimate for 1848-9,
with the credits in aid deducted, amounted to
7,726,6101., and the deduction of 208,0001., left
7,518,610/. as the actual vote of last session.-(Hear.)
The vote proposed for this year was 6,260,7404 The
apparent saving was 1,278,0001.; and, deducting the es-
timate for the three votes transferred, there appeared a
saving on the not revised naval votes, Nos. 1 to 17, of
449,9081.; the saving in the packet estimate of 66,064/,
brought the actual saving, as compared with 1848-9, to
515,9724, and with appropriations in aid now paid into
the Exchequer, amounting to 214,884/., they arrived
again at a net saving of 730,856/. He admitted that the
figures were complicated, and difficult to understand, but
such was, he believed, the actual saving as compared
with the gross revised estimates of last year. He should
be told perhaps that the Government had been duping
the country, and had promised a great deal more than
they had performed. In the statement made by him on
the 20th of March, 1848, he had shown a saving
of 456,8531., principally on works, steam machinery,
and stores ; and he also held out a reduction in stores,
&c., of 150,0004, making a total of 606,000/. 208,0001.
was afterwards struck off in August; and here was a re-
duction of 730,0004 so that altogether there was a sav-
ing of 938,000/. He would now state in what way this
saving had been effected. In the first place, he must
state that, under No. 1, the reduction of men had been
absolutely neutralised by the rise in the average price
of wages from 36/. 3s. 11d. to 39/. 95.; which was the
actual cost on the Ist of December, 1848, when the Ad-
miralty reverted, for the first time during the last ten
years, to the rule laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Ripon, of taking the cost of vessels in
commission as the basis of the estimate for the year.
The result had been a reduction under the head of naval
packets of 27,000/. Under vote No. 2 there was a de-
crease, as compared with the same vote last year, of
115,051/. There they obtained the whole benefit of tl e
reduction, both in the number of men and in the cost of
provisions. In vote No. 3 there was an increase of
9114 principally in the surveyor's department of the
Admiralty, the object of which was to improve that de-
partment, and to prevent it from being so dependent as it
had been on political changes.-(Hear, hear.) He could
not speak of the present surveyor, without saying how
fully qualified he had proved himself to be for his office.
-(Hear.) Amongst the advantages which the public
hag GinXiTeCl fr9l4 hip fICKYINCti Wass% gregOr efaelefloY

• he superintendence of the dockyards. The vote for the
arctic expedition having been ound quite in el quate to
fit out vessels for such an expedition, there was an addi-
tion to the estimate of 24,822/. There was also an item
of 6,500/. for the survey of the great Lagoon, running
parallel with the Bight of Benin. It had been lately
ascertained that the country had, as usual, paid dearly
for the acquisition of geographical knowledge in Africa.
The life of Mr. Middleton, by whom the survey was
first undertaken, had been sacrificed; but another gen-
tleman, with a more iron-like constitution, who accom-
panied him, had survived, and was going out again'.to
complete the labours which had been commenced. Under
vote 6—the establishments at home—there was a
reduction of 3,5541., arising princincipally from
diminished superintendence in the dockyards, as
recommended by the Committee of last year.
On vote No. 8, under the head of wages paid in the
dockyards, there was a reduction of 86,5681.; but of that
sum 40,000/. was reduced by the revision in August lust.
The estimates for this year included 8,926/. for addi-
tional hands in the dockyard smitheries, and 3,000/. for
surveys of the yards, suggested by the Committee. For
this the public had received more than an equivalent in
a reduction of wages to the amount of 52,509/. On vote
No. 10, referring to stores, there was a reduction of
342,8021. as compared with last year. Last year the
vote was 1,511,6711. ; this year it was 1,168,8691.
The reduction was composed of these items. The
timber vote of last year was 489,0001. ; this year it
was 386,000/. The vote for other stores last year was
533,000/. ; this year it was 492,000/.—the total saving
on these two items being 167,000/., which we effected
without trenching at all on the efficiency of the
establishments. The reduction which took place con-
sisted in the amount of consumption. Instead of 28,000
loads of timber, the estimate was for 21,860. On hemp
there was a saving of 12,000/., principally owing to a fall
in the price. Under the head of coals there was an in-
crease of 7,0001. The estimate for contracts for Medi-
terranean steamer: was less than last year by 108,0001.
The Admiralty began khe year with a heavy liability for
engines, amounting to nearly 160,000/.; 20,000/. was
put down to meet the wants which might arise in respect
of steam machinery and steamers. Under vote No. 11,
for new works, the gross decrease was 296,6671.; but
620,0001. having been struck off in the revision of last
year, the net decrease for the present year was only
234,667/. Those who examined the estimates carefully
would find the greatest possible improvement in the
manner in which the items were stated. There was
no mystification or uncertainty about them. It
would be satisfactory to the House to hear
that nearly all the great works in the dock-
yards were complete, including those at Woolwich,
Chatham, Pembroke, and Deptford. Very little remained
to be done at Portsmouth. The only heavy works
remaining were those at Devonport, at Keyham
and at Bermuda. Though the amount proposed for
Keyham (120,0000 might appear large, the Admiralty
had had great difficulty in inducing the contractors to
reduce the amount below 150,000/., making the total ex-
penditure on that account 599,0001., or about half the
sum originally contemplated. We had now, however,
got into a better system of keeping accounts in the deck-
yards, which he was confident would be attended with
the best results. As to the works abroad, those at Ber-
muda were in the least satisfactory condition of all.
There was no place where so much money had been
spent, with so little to show for it.—(Hear. hear.) The
works at Bermuda had been going on ever since 1815,
and up to three or four years since no one had ever
heard anything like an intelligible notion of what had
been done, was doing, or was about to be
done. There had been all sorts of plans pro-
posed, all of which had been tried, and all of which
had been successively abandoned. During the past
three or four years, however, the operations had
proceeded upon a distinct and intelligible principle ; the
total cost of completing them, it was ascertained, would
be 143,0001., but this outlay, if the House so pleased,
could be spread very well over several years. That
the works at Bermuda, so long and expensively in
• progress, ought to be completed, would, he thought,
be admitted on all hands: the importance of the place
as a naval station with relation both to the West
Indies and to the United States was beyond dispute:
the House, however, had the matter in their own
hands, and must exercise their own judgment upon it.
Speaking generally with reference to the public works
under this department. he would observe that during the
years which the Hon. Member for Montrose insisted
upon as the pattern period, these works were wholly sus-
pended, with this dangerous result in prospect—that, be-
fore long, Great Britain, as far as her naval stations
were concerned, would not only lose her claim to be
considered a great naval power, but would be in a
position exposing her at any moment to a most peril-
ous blow from any other naval power that chose to
assail her.—(Hear, hear.) Even in the extravagance
which had followed that period of excessive parsimony
the outlay of public money had not been at all charac-
terised by that recklessness of expenditure which had
been exhibited by many of our railway c companies,
whose affairs were direct,cl by men reported of the
highest mercantile sagacity. Rely upon it, the best
argument that diplomacy could use to check the angry
passions which the wisest nations were subject to, was
to show that their indulgence would be dangerous to
those who yielded to them.—(Hear, hear.) In the 13th
vote, Miscellaneous, there was a decrease of 13,147/.,
occasioned by the relinquishment of the plan of coast
guard drill, the money already expended upon which,
however, under the direction of Captain Stewart, had
been most usefully employed. In the 14th vote, for half-
pay, there was an increase of 2,5121., or, upon the revised
vote of last year, of 12,5121., an increase occasioned by
the number of ships that had been paid off. As to the halt-
pay there existed grave misconceptions; the Hon. Member
for Montrose seemed to regard the half-pay list as a sort
of Government preserve for the sons, and nephews, and
what not, of the aristocracy. God help these parties if
they had no better resource than half-pay !—(Hear,
hear.) The simple fact was, that the officers whose
names occupied the half-pay list were, to a large extent,
the very men who, having served their country during
the war against France, had when that war ceased bean
deemed to have merited their country's grateful care.
Of the 3,857 officers in receipt of half-pay, no fewer than
1,915 were wholly incapacitated, as the result of their
gallant services; and the Hon. Gentleman need not fear
that the number was not diminishing. Between 1830
and the present time death had been at its work with
these old servants of the country. In that period 2,034
names had been struck off the list by death. The Go-
vernment would take good care that no improper aug-
mentation in the list should take place; but it must be
remembered, if there was no prospect of promotion, or
of future benefits to be arrived at, no man who could
get a crust in any other profession would enter the ser-
vice.—(Hear.) To the next vote, 9,7571., for good service
pensions and allowances, he believed not even the Hon.
Gentleman behind him would object. As to the
manner in which these pensions had been allotted during
the past three years, he would readily appeal to the judg-
ment of the whole service.—(Hear, hear.) In the vote
for civil pensions there was an increase of 6,313/. neces
sarily occasioaed by the reductions which had taken place
in the various yards, involving, as a matter of mere jus-
tice, superannuation allowances in a number of cases.
In the 17th vote, for transports, there was a diminution of
700,300/., arising from the circumstance that there would
this year be fewer reliefs than had been known for many
years past. The Post office vote spoke for itself. He
would only, in reference to it, state that when the Holy-
head Company should think fit to propose reasonable
terms, the Government would willingly transfer the
packet service between Holyhead and Dublin to the
Holyhead Company.—(Hear, hear.) As to future changes
in the dockyards, these would, in future, depend in great
measure upon the respective heads of the yards ; and,
in their selection of the heads themselves, the Board of
Admiralty must look less to the mere duration of past
services than to the present aptitude for active and ener-
getic work in the candidates. With reference to the
building of ships that took place last year, material
errors were circulated. We began, certainly, in 1815,
with an immense capital of shipping, and we had
spent it lavishly. Since that year, the total reduc-
tion on vessels of all rates was 175 ; there having
been 482 broken up, or cut down, or lost, and 304 built,
the necessity for new building was clear. There had been
an entire change in the calibre of the guns mounted by
other countries, necessitating a similar change on our
part; and the principle of ship-building itself had, as a
matter of course, been to an important extent changed.
The battle of the Nile was fought with 18-pounders;
now, 60 and 68-pounders were common in all ships. The
rate at which ships were building had been very much
exaggerated recently. Most Hon. Members would have
seen a statement in which it was asserted that there were
no less than 67 ships of all classes on the stocks. This
was not only an absurd assertion, but it was impossible
to be true. There were only 36 ships of all rates
now building, and the error most probably arose
in the writer of the statement having taken into
his calculation ships, the order for building which
had long since been cancelled. It was the in-
tention of the Admiralty to adhere to the pro-
gramme laid down by the surveyor of the navy for the
next five years, and to carry it out in all its parts. There
was another point on which he must touch. It had been
asserted that ships, if used well, would last forty or fifty
years. This was a mistake. The average duration of
men-of-war was fifteen years, and at the end of that
period they underwent large repairs, which were almost
as good as rebuilding them. The Canopus bad been held
up as a model of what a ship ought to be, and the ex-
traordinary length of time that vessel had endured had
also formed the grounds of much misconception. It had
been asked why ships of a similar build, and lasting as
long, had not been constructed. The Canopus was taken
in 1798, and she cost almost immediately after she was
captured 16,0001. to put her into repair. At five different
periods subsequently—namely, inlBl6, 1826, 1831,1842,
and 1845—she had undergone repairs which amounted
in the aggregate to 135,5231., a sum which would have
sufficed to have built two similar ships. The Nelson,
again, had been cited as another example; but the
money wasted in the decorations and carvings of that
vessel was enormous, and then she was never fit for ser-
vice. The beautiful system of Sir Robert Seppings, of
putting round sterns to men-of-war, had cost the country
1,500,000/, which was entirely thrown away.—(Hear.)
He had little more to say, save to thank the House for
the indulgence shown io him. He trusted the navy was
in such a state as to satisfy all those who desired to see
England maintain her naval superiority. The Board of
Admirality was taking measures to ensure responsibi-
bility on the part of all the heads of departments in all
the branches of the naval service, and the Hon. Mem_
her for Montrose would find on the part of the Govern-
ment the strongest desire to carry out the most rigid
system of economy, consistently with what they deemed
the true interests of the country. He begged, therefore,
to conclude by proposing that the number of seamen,
marines, and boys employed in the ensuing year in the
navy be fixed at 40,000.
The vote having been put from the chair,
Mr. [IUME said that the candour of the lion. Gen-
tleman had surprised him. No one who heard the details
girea by him 9f the VXMIN4UCiI dad rfml9 99amaittecl

in the naval department would be surprised at the efforts
made by those who wished to effect a reduction of the
expenditure. The Hon. Member had asserted that th©
navy was in perfsct order. He had never heard any
other statement from persons occupying the lion. Gen-
tleman's situation. Never was it acknowledged that any
errors had been committed by the naval authorities.
But was it not a reproach to the House to have sanc-
tioned such a system of extravagance as that which the
Hon. Gentleman had exposed? The Hon. Gentleman had
stated that in 1815 there was a large fund of ships form-
ing the naval stock of the empire. It he turned to "Han-
sard," he would find repeated attempts recorded therein
as having been made by him (Mr. flume), in 1816 to
1825, in order to put a stop to this extravagance. Within
those years, no less than 23,000,0004 had been wasted
on the navy. But how was it that the Hon. Member
had discovered all these extravagances and misdoings?
Ile had moved the naval estimates during the last two
years according to his own statement, and how was it
that he had never before detected the faults he now laid
hare? Whence did the light break in upon him? The
Committee it was thatjhad brought all these wasteful pro-
ceedings under the public eye, that Committee for mov-
ing the nomination of which he had been so much abused.
fie must say, to the credit of the Noble Lord who sal
near him, that he deserved the utmost credit for his
efforts and labours, but still there would be very great
difficulty before any results were attained. Every Mem-
ber of the Committee, of whatever party he might be,
had also done his utmost to promote the objects of the
inquiry, and to expose the errors of the past manage-
ment of the navy. But notwithstanding the Honourable
Gentleman's admissions as to the past, he must bear to be
told that the actual management of the navy was not
a bit better than it had been. The number of ships that
were building, and the quantity of stores that was re-
quired, did not accord with the professions of economy
that had been made. With respect to one point on
which he had been somewhat unfairly subjected to blame
—namely, as to the effect produced upon honest hard-
working artizans and shipwrights by the reduction of men
which he proposed, he must beg leave to say that he had
not been aware of the manner in which reductions of the
establishments bore on individuals affected by them. All
he had to say was that men were enticed from other oc-
cupations, and led to expect permanent work in the ser-
vice, and then the Admiralty in a sudden fit of economy
—(A laugh)—yea, a sudden fit of economy, which
contrasted strangely and oven violently with their
habitual extravagance, discharged a vast number of
these shipwrights, and threw them without resource
upon the labour market. When he was told, as a rea-
son why the charges for building and repairing ships
were so heavy, that the country required a certain
force to be kept up, he must say that the mode of
keeping up that naval force, by letting the ships rot
in harbour, was most wasteful. Why not have a cer-
tain proportion always at sea in turn ? The fault lay
in the House not looking more narrowly into the esti-
mates before they were proposed in Committee of Sup-
ply. In France and Belgium the Ministers were com-
pelled to justify ever item in their respective budgets
before committees of the Assemblies previous to being
permitted to propose them in the Houses of Assembly.
He had vainly tried to enforce the same system here. He
could not understand why the estimates should not be
referred to a Committee upstairs before they were pro-
posed in Committee of Supply. Be made these remarks
because he thought that by perseverance--(llear, hear)
—he should be able to succeed in compelling the Ministers
to take the course he pointed out. Let there be oblivion
guaranteed for the past, provided the Government en-
tered upon a new course, now the errors of former Ad-
ministrations had been discovered and admitted. There
had also been some very severe reflections made upon
him, as if he had grudged the half-pay of the naval
officers. He did not grudge any pay for past ser-
vices, but he did object to see young men entering
the navy and thrusting aside older men, who
were compelled to pass their lives in the re-
ceipt of half-pay, whilst they were burning to
be actively employed in the service which they loved.
His Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward) had stated that the service
of the navy was carried on independent of patronage.
That might be true as far as Lord Auckland was con-
cerned, and he hoped it would prove true for the future,
but certainly it was not so as regarded the past, when
patronage was certainly the governing principle. The
Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty had expressed a hope
that the House would not support his amendment; he
would, therefore, proceed to state the grounds upon
which he moved it, in order at least to enable Hon.
Members to understand what it was he proposed. He
had taken as the basis of his calculation of the number
of men required for the navy, not the favourite year
1835, but an average of the five years from 1835 to 1839
inclusive, during which period the mean number of men
employed in the navy was 31,469. The House was now
asked for 40,000, whilst in the year 1840, when the Sy-
rian war was raging, there were only 34,000; and when
the Noble Lord, the Foreign Secretary, proposed to add
7,000 marines to the naval force, he (Mr. Hume) had
unsuccessfully opposed him. But he did not desire
to bring the number of men down to the average of
1835-39, nor yet of 1840; but simply to reduce them to
35,000. Was he rash in asking the House to descend
again to the level of the years 1835-39 ? He would
even be contented if this was effected gradually, provided
it was done; and of that the Hon. Gentlemen might be
quite persuaded the country would at length make sure.
Down the number must go. Would the House believe
that the number of ships at present was 460—namely,
208 in ordinary and 252 in commission, added to which
there were 32 ships now building. Let them put an end
to building altogether. The proportion of ships em-
ployed on foreign stations since the year 1835 had very
greatly increased. On the Pacific and south-east coast
of America station there were, in 1835, 14 ships and
2,091 men. In 1848 there were on the same station 26
ships and 5,431 men, showing an increase of 12 ships
and 3,340 men on this station. On the west coast of
Africa and the Cape of Good Hope there were em-
ployed, in 1835, 13 ships, and 1,065 men. In 1848 there
were 37 ships and 4,647 men, making an increase of 24
ships and 3,582 men. On the Mediterranean station,
where, according to Sir G. Cocktu n, one ship-of-the line
and 2 frigates w( re a sufficient squadron in times of
peace, there were, in 1835, 23 ships and 6,236 men: in
1848 there were 31 ships and 8,337 men—making an
increase of 8 ships and 2,101 men. Now, he would ask
whether there was not on these three station an excess
of ships and men, and whether 35 ships were not capable
of doing all the duty that was required in those seas?
All he asked for was, that a reduction of 8,000 against
the proposed reduction of 3,000 of the Government,
should be agreed to. Now, what was the proposition which
he submitted to the House ? There were 59,000,0001.
collected in the course of the year ; and out of that sum,
and not out of the 11,000.0004 he proposed to make
reductions. There were 4f millions expended in collect-
ing the revenue; but he was convinced that 2 millions
annually would clear the whole expense. The estimates
were characterised by most extraordinary extravagance;
and the confessions of that night could not lessen the
anxiety to diminish the expenses, for it was now admitted
that they were in a condition to call upon the
Government to have every department overhauled.—
(Hear, hear.) The cost of collecting the revenue was
as much now that 700 articles had been struck off the
list as when they were 1,100 articles on which it was
collected. He contended, and would repeat, that
2,000,0001. should cover the whole charge; but if they
employed in one case nine commissioners, and in another
seven commissioners, to do the work of one, they could
not expect to have any limit to their expenditure.—
(Hear, hear.) In addition to this he would make the
crown lands productive, and in the civil list he would
make a considerable reduction.—(Cheers.) Why should
they have three or four pensioned chancellors, with 5,0001.
a year, when one acting chancellor would suffice? Was
it not possible that by abolishing the mock sovereignty in
Ireland they might save 100,0001. a year? And was it
not possible after the exhibitions they had had with re-
gard to the navy, ordnance, and army to make great re-
ductions in those departments? And in the colonies
again, was it not monstrous that three or four millions a
year should continue to be paid for their management
when the people of England actually needed the neces-
saries of .life?—(Cheers.) He would ask whether out
of that 59,000,0001. it could be denied by anY
person who had looked into these estimates
that a large sum might be spared?—(Hear, hear.)
But if they wished to economise they must reduce the
number of their men to the average to which he had
referred, and must determine, as he hoped they would,
that this vote should be reduced to 35,000 men.
Sir F. BARING concurred with the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, in thinking that it was a great
misfortune that that House sometimes looked with very
large and liberal views at the public expenditure, whilst
at other times they were inclined to throw themselves
into the opposite extreme, and to reduce the expenditure
below what was absolutely essential.—(Hear, hear.)
Having been a member of the Committee which had
sat upon this subject, he was inclined to admit that
owing to irregularities or a want of system, there had
been an expenditure which might have been saved.
Still, they must remember the circumstances of the
case. The introduction of steam, for example, into
the navy, had changed the whole face of war, and it
was necessary that this country should not be left in
anunprotecteds tat
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April, 1848,
proposed there
5 ,947
men actually on the that
40,000 only should be voted. It was proposed practically,
then, that there should be a reduction of 6,000 men in
the course of the year; and the Hon. Gentleman now
proposed a still further reduction of 5,000 men, making
in all nearly 11,000. He did not think, however, that
the Hon. Gentleman had made out grounds for any such
reduction. The world was not quiet in 1835 or 1848•
His llon. Friend forgot that they were compelled by
treaty to keep up a squadron on the coast of Africa.
That squadron could not be got rid of by reducing the
number of seamen. That bad been a subject of inquiry
before the Committee, and he trusted that the House
would not, from motives of economy, so far give way es
to reduce the number of men with a view of getting rid
of the squadron. There was another point which his
Hon. Friend had likewise omitted to mention. We were
bound to keep up five ships in China, Those squadrons
created a necessity for 2,500 or 3,000 additional men.
In matters of this kind, a reliance must be placed, to s
certain extent on those who were at the head of the Go'
vernment. It would be easy for him to show, by a com-
parison with the farce of other countries, that it would
not be advisable to have less hands than there were; but
he was glad to be relieved from such a task, which was
always one of an invidious kind. He thought it better
to place this matter on that which was the real constitu-
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