The Sun.
London, England, 1825-05-21 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY MAY 20.
The Royal assent was given by Ommission to the Capital
Convicts' Bill, the Scotch Juries' Bill, the Scotch Sheriff
Courts' Bill, the Scotch Small Debts' Recovery Bill, -and the
Police Magistrates' Bill. The Commissioners were the LORD
CHANCELLOR, the. Earl of SHAPIESBITRY, and Viscount
MELVILLE.

COUNTY COURTS' BILL.
The' County Courts' Bill was brought up from the House of
Commons by Lord ALTHonrE and nher Members.
On the motion of Lord BEDEs'iDILE the Bill was read a
first time.

COUNTY RATE& BILL.
The County Rates' Bill was brougit 4' from the House of
Commons by Mr. EsTco.u'RT and o:her Members.
COUNTY "COURTS' BILL.
Earl SPENCER presented petitions from Wellingborough
and from Northampton, signed by 200 persons ; and from
Rugby, in Warwickshire, in favour tf the County Courts' Bill.
The Portage'Rates' Bill and the Irish 'Bankers' Regulation
Bill went through a Committee.
BELFAST ACADEMICAL, INSTITUTION.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE presented a petition from
the Directors of the Belfast Academical Institution.—Referred
to the Committee on Irish Affairs.
CORN LAWS.
Viscount MELVILLE presented ;13etition from the Land-
owners and Occupiers of Farms in the neighbourhood of Elgin,
against any alteration of the Corn LaWS.
STAMP DUTIES.
The same Noble Lord presentedfra petition from the same
persons, praying for some alteration
_A the Stamp Duties.
TRIAL OF PEERS IN SCOTLAND.
On the-motion of the same Noble Lord,- the Bill for regu-
latiok the trial of Peers in Scotland was read a second time.
Adjourned at Half-past Five, till Wednesday next.

7IOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAK En attended the House of Lords to hear the Royal
Assent given by commission to several public anti private Bills
(for which see Lords' report.)
Mr. L. FOSTER moved that the Committees be permitted
to sit during the adjournment of the flouse.--Agreed to. The
Hon. Member presented a petition from tile Merchants of Dun-
dalk, praying that the Liverpool Dock Duty be reduced by 50
per cent.

Sir G. CLERKlrrijEovielidErtheDf O•urCtliCieSr coßnlsLidLer.ation of h
of the Leith .Docks Bill. t e report
Lord A. HAMILTON that
said from the great importance
of this measure, and owing to
not
the pecuniary
t interest invplved
r
it, it required the most serious'consid aion. Many of the inha-
bitants both of Edinburgh and Leith'
were
opposed to the Bill.
For his own part, although he would, move for the rejection
of the Bill, as he had not read the evidence
connected with it, if
such_ a motion were made he would support it. The port of
Leith, which ma be fairly egerded as aport of Edinburgh, had
been put up to sale of .l( t•Stock Company, and it happened
that many of them Were buyers andsellers,
being Members of
the Corporation, who sold the
Such a s be would contend, was most
of Company that purchased it.
Besides, there was large improper and illegal.
debt upon the Dock. An action
now depending to decide this debt,was
amounting to '
contended for one party and denied 2"'"°l.as
to be so much bythe lt was therefore most other.
impropert for the House of Commons to
interfere before that
hoped the Lord acl"
was decided.—(llear, hear !)—He
he
was
afriendAdvocate was a friend to the law of the land,
. althoughe. to this Btll • and he would undertake to.eay, that the I earn 1
ford would not say that the sale un-
der""the circuinsta,
..175i0C,h1EVoteited againsit tne untairnees
of making him personally responsible for this Bill. It was not
his Bill ;lle had, with other Scotch Members, attended the evi-
dence, and merely moved the Bill as a private not a public
Bill. The Noble Lord had not read the evidence ; he had not
attended the COmmittee: in short, lie acknowledged he knew
nothing about it. except what he had heard from report.
Lord A. HAM lI.TON explained.
Mr. HUME was desirous of knowing how far Ministers were
responsible for their patronage of this Bill : he regarded it as
one of the most shameful jobs brought into this House. If the
Ministers were in the (louse, he would be glad to know dis-
tinctly whether Lord Melville had not promised the support of
Government to this measure ? On the part of several boroughs
Which he represented, lie was instructed to oppose this Bill, and
on the part of the whole community of. Scotland he protested
against the further progress of the Bill, as injurious to the trade
of Scotland, by the imposition of a new and heavy duty. He
'contended that the trustees had violated their trust ,by the sale
of the chick toetheinselves, and he was satisfied that the Lord
Chancellor would confirm that opinion. Instead. of borrowing
the money they, wanted at 3i per cent., they had . seCured to
themselves 6i per cent. for ever.—(Cries of " No, no F)—Sorne
Persons had sold their shares at a premium of 15 per cent. He
was sure, if it "calm before him, the -Lord Chancellor would 1
vitiate the whole proceeding. The two principal grounds on
which lie would oppose the Bill were, first, because he Was un-
willing to consent to an imposition of a new duty on the. trade
of any part of Scotland ; and; secondly, because he thought it
highly objectionable, whilst the•aniount of the debt was yet un-
ascertained, and an action was depending to determine jt. The
proceeding had already caused much mischief, and he hoped
that his Hon. Friend would take the sense of the House, and
give every opposition to it.
Sir G. CLERK thought the charges brought against
,the,
Corporation of Edinburgh, by the two' IlOn. Members, very
unfair and unjust, as neither or them had attended the Com-
mittee upon the bill. Some years ago the COrporation of Edin-
burgh had contracted a debt of 265,000/. for certain improve-
ments of the peel of Leith. The Corporation would have been
threatened with bankruptcy ifan immediate demand for payment
of this suni was made. From the evnbairassment in which the
Corporation was placed, they proposed the sale of their interest
in the dOcks to a joint stock company. The plan did not ori-
ginate with the Corporation Of Edinburgh, but was the sug-
gestion of a merchant of Leith. The plan had been proposed
for several months before it was sanctioned or taken up by the
Corporation of Edinburgh. It was not until'the 9th October
that the shares were taken up, owing to the favourable state of
the public funds. The merchants of Leith released themselves
from an obligation into which they had entered to take any of
the shares, which quickly rose to a premium of 15 percent.—
The high rate' of tip per cent. was objected to as too high a rate
of interest, but if that was the largest amount of interest that
could accrue to the members of the company, lie thought it was
not too much. considering the risk that attended the specula-
tion. Re denied that this measure was, as had been asserted,
a Government rirenSere, taken up by Government with a view
of overwhelming all opposition. It was unfair to have such a
measure of general utility opposed by Hon. Illenibers who had
neither read the evidence, nor attended the
Committee
on the
Bill.
mr. .1. P. GRANT said the Bill did not rest upon the
Vornmittee, but upon the broad principles, of law. The Ma-
gistrates, as Trustees of the port of Leith, sold the trust to
themselves., and afterwards disposed of the shares at a premium of
15 per coif. Such a proceeding he was sure would be declared
illegal in the Conn of Chancery. The trustee had' taken the
'shares upon speculation of an Act of Parliament, and by so
doing brought theineelvei within the Bubble Act. The
Corporation had sold" the property without an 'advertise-
ment. The Community of Leith petitioned against the Bill.
and every town on die Leith coast trading with that port had
followed the exaniple. Ile called upon the House, therefore,
as it valued the law and the interest of the community of
Leith, who were unttpresented in that House, to reject this
unjust measure. ,
Mr. W. DUN DAS briefly supported the Bill.
Lord (I LENORCII protested ap;ainst the manner in
which those Senteli j(ibtf were managed in the Committee
up stall's, which Committee was principally composed of
Scotchnien.
said the Bill wa
He a most important
Mr. ABERCROMBV sai
s
one, and involved many interests. o jected .to transferring
the management of those Docks :nirresponsible party—_to a
Joint stock Company, to pe'rsofis nr.t.having any interest in the
concern : they had no interest but that of receiving their, divi-
dends. It was a floating changeeh e trade, thing nothing for
ith and as little for the D k be-
causeoc s,
the trade' of the Port of Le
were ensured to them. A gross breach
their dividends
•f trust had been committed by the trustees, to e VC
..ect a gross
I job. Either in law or equity sueli a transaction would never

Mr. HUME preiented a -petition frotri certain sailors en-
gaged in the merchant service, complaining that they were
obliged to cOntribute. 6d. a month from their wakes, towards.
the maintenance of Greenwich Hospital, though - they derived
no advantage from that establishment.
M. T. WILSON said that the subject was one of rib ordi-
nary importance.
After a few words from Sir JOSEPH YORKE,
Mr. lIUSKISSON said, that considerable expence was in-
curred in providing foTIESr sailors in different p
Sarts of Europe;
DU aN SPIRIT.

Lord ALTLIORP wished to know whether the (1116.6 on-
rum, when rectified, were intended by floe Risht Hon. Gentle-
man opposite to be the same as on British spirits.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
it was his intention that rum might be rectified, piYing the
same duty as British spirits, with only the addition of Is. 3d.

METROPOLITAN UNIVERSITY.
Mr, BROUGHAM rose to give, notice, that he would on
Wednesday move for leave to bring in' a Bill for the incorpo-
ration of a College in London.
The CHANCELIAR of the EXCHEQUER. said, that'
although an Hon. Friend of his had given notice for him that
he would on that evening move the adjournment of the Hons.:.
to Wednesday: yet in conformity with previous usage it was
then his intention to propose that the liduse should not sit mi.
til Thursday.
Mr. BROUGHAM, after considering the arrangeMent 9f
business, saw no day open until Wednesday, the Ist a June,
and that he thought would be too near the end of the Session
to admit of the Bill pas Sing through both,Houses.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that
it was a , public Bill, it might be carried through beth
House's within the time.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that. as the dicussion might
be had on the second reading, leave for bringing in might be

PiI4CE SMTiNPENCE,

applied for on any night withou t interfering with otherhe -
portia) thedis
pßosiello;fbtuhetiarntyruiAsitefolorbtehrewirhoowenoualddvnaonttadagoepstir
isldprsoup. siirths;
was then understood that on Thursday wouldapplyif
_. have been countenanced. Those who thought that trusteees •
po-un sition ought to oppose this Bill.—(Hear, hear !) d
1.,, he
leave to bring in the PXQPOse ell.-
. Mr. WEMYSS had attended the Committee, and consider- JURIES
ed the Bill befdre the House as one of the grossest Jobs which ' Mr. Secretary P BILL
E 1314, before in '• • -
had been brought into' Parliament for many years.i ming the Order of the Day
for the further considerat•
fllr. T. WILSON had heard enough to convince him-that proposed that an Addressmn)the Report of the Juries' Bill,
the Corporation had acted most improperly. The transaction praying for returns f the should
be
peresen ted to Ihe CeSivi,
would have been better managed by the merchants of Leith: cities, liberties, o local regulatibns in the several totins,
3lr. Alderman WOOD opposed the Bill. counties, and counties of towns, in Enerand
and Wales, respecting the impanelling of Juries.
'
The House there divided. Mr. SCARLET!' conceived it - 'es.
For the Bill, 41 I Against it, 14 I Majority, 27.accessary that in the, UM he-
Lord A. fore the House a clause should be introduced, excepting flenn
HAMILTON presented a petition, signed by repeal such Statutes
20,000 persons, inhabitants of Glasgow, in favour of the Tyne- .• h with the objects or -
relating to the subject as' did not. inteffere
Canal ill. His Lordship also presented • • , the present measure.
so presen a similar petition In this 111 r• PEEL concurred, and '
from Greenock.—Ordered to lie on the table• it was accordingly ordered
that the Address which he proposed should be
presented-. .
. IRISH JOINT STOCK COMPANY. Mr. Secretary PEEI before '
4 the Speaker left the Chair,
The Irish Joint Stock Company Bill, for the encouragement wished to state the nature and objects of the Bill tl•en before he
of Manufactures in Ireland, was read a third time _ House' It consolidated no less than sixty Statutes,a ''t
e and passed,ate. it re-
without observation. pealed altogether twenty Statutes regarding • '
•
g the impandling of
THE BALLINASLOE PETITION. Juries. The Bill would farther go toqualify 1 a
f an- holders' ase
sensed at 20/. or persons possessed
3lr. V. FITZGERALD brought.up the Report of the Corn- amount of 400/ t e'f ; h o personal property: to the
mittee appointed to inquire into the circumstances under which ject of the Bill "i'vasetpo
drool:1 t the
of jurors. A nothef ob.
a fabricated petition had been presented to the House, purport. malies of the Statute La 'way
i present absurdities and ano-
ing to have coma from certain individuals-of thelown apd the present Bill to do away upon e the subject. Ile also intended by
neighbourhood of 'Ballinasloe, in Ireland. The Report stated a Knight, which was ay with the necessity of the presence of
that, the. Committee had examined several witnesses res •' r • • _. at present required in some case.S.to' ton-
the sub pectin, stitute a jury under the existing law
ject referred to their considerationi and that the iiii2 Vision, which required . 'There was another Pro_
the
them Robert.Poer Trench Pilkington, Who confessYed 'to lected from the hundredatocewrtleirhlnaber of the Jury to be se his having_been the sole author of the petition in question ;to case belonged. It would b c the
his parties concerned An- the
having affixed-thereto the several signatures which it bore, procure an impartial jut byeahMoltilselii more likely to be Mate to without the knowledge or consent of the parties, and to his ha's,_ in of special juries, ivh ..
ng this regulation. Farther,
ing forwarded the said Petition to the Hon. Member by holn naghe would ', ere the Crown was a real or norni. it was presented to the House. It concluded w' by party, propose that thejury be selected - e risibly
by stating that ballot. This Should be the ca n".l
the offender and offered nothing in extenuation. se in all criminal •
, civil cases if the two parties co " 1 cases.
In
Mr. Secretary PEEL nsentet to the old ode, tficey
however painful to proptise an act Of might be at Jibed to ha e I
severity, Was nevertheless under the necessity of subhiitting to' such provision .was to be vm•attice j.urors selected as usual; bn no the House a motion on the subject. The petition which that • mind cases. The object I for the selection of juries antt
dividual had procUred to be presented to the House in. of the the
was not to (,*ratify any
a violation of the pr' • was so gross party, but to remove the objections and abuses existing in' the
privileges of Parliament, and fraught•with jury system, and -render '
such danger to- the right of petitioning, that he felt lessre
bee as
Lance than he otherwise should in moving that the offender Q
ing the Order
possible. The Right Hon. C
. rehtleman concluded with moo_ to Newgate. '
for going into a Conunitt ' h
ee on t efur-
Mr. BROUGHAM ther consideration of the Juries' Bill
AM felt that on the present, as on all q Mr SCAR! ETT wished L.l
'-'
tiaras
of privilege, it was of importance that the -ues- ' .. I to take tiii., opportunity of ei re --
pss House should be unanimous. vote of the ing his unqualified eipprobation of the mode of -
proceeding Mr. Secretary PEEL had no objection to take •
adopted by the Right Hon
whatever was Jett of greater or
..Gentleman. - '!`here existed no tiu b-
the ordinary course in such cases.deeper importance, and it was every way
The SPEAKER then referred the Hsuable that trial by jury should be rendered a - de-
s perfect a 'n •-
e House to a which oe. sable. Ile thought it incumbent on h•Pt 3 - °.'
tarred in 1736, and submitted t their considerationcase him to express
hie grad-
being
offender's heard before a CoMmittee sh ld "
o whether the rude to the Right Hon Gentleman f •
• or his exertion
a- sufficient hearing. '1 ou be considered were such as became the 11l ember s' which
e. The case was that of a man named Win Government.- He ' ern er of an enlightened and liberal
Leaner, and his servant, Abraham brie, who had committed a the Bill, and entirely concurred in the general principle of
breach of privilege by the printing of a certain pamphlet, • - not only was prepared to afford the tribut • fI •
or ra- Praise to the exertions of the Right II Gentleman,en 113
ther by the latter having printed it in the h
ouse of the former, ,pledged himself to give all the • on. but
without his privity.
In that case the House had followed ' the ' g assistance in his power to render
•sel t
ci yhe recommendations of the Committee 'appointed on pre- e measure as perfect as poseible
that Mr. PEEL could not but feel • ;,I t• e , • .
occasion.' He referred to this for the purpose of showing what his - 1 d t.grat.et, at the Inoue in Which
measure la been received by the House.
the practice of the House had been. There
exist no greater encouragement to -a püblic
Mr. BROUGHAM inquired if the party had been summon- the execution of a difficult object than.T man to undertake
ed before the Committee ? and on being answered in the affir Bill had Metwith. .. present-Mich a reception as' the
- •- _-
mative, he replied that his impression was' that he had M
not been- r.- BROLTG HA 111 -fully concurred in theprinciple
before the Committee. •of 'this
•
o this
. Bill, the obct of which was to
The SPEAKERobserved that William Leaner had ' k,n the S Book, d expunge useless tatuteS- from
ac ow. e tatute an remove a flaw which e• • • - •
fasted in that noble
ledged that the•pint• i mg of the offensive pamphlet' was executed
~Institution, Trial b Jury.
y - Ile fully agfoeti in thepropriety '
in his house, though without his Privity. o,
- making, the proposed 'alter t• •'
Mr. BROUGHAM then said that • - . • a ion in the mode of striking juries
and one which w . . It was a bad precedent, where the Crown was a party con d -
would
be infinitely more honoured in the breach calculated to do away with all 1 cerr'e
' It
was
a Prcrci‘i'l
than in the observance.- In comparing what Was Proposed to 1 ject, which mi ht at tle suspicion -on a delioate slit:-
done on that occasion with what had been done in 136 there) es' t M g f present exist. fie was certain that tt:e
was this difference observable, that with reou' 7 a. Pr •
sen.
w.tost.er,.o the Crown. Office would be the npr— ~-
„rd to Lea e the " t''' ' ' • , of
vote
was
t'lDlt'llr
.th(9lsa
" -------s''''F"-.''' - '-'
'..
1-"'"" best that could be possibly devised and entirely incapable
referred to. improvement.
that the delin-
Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD observed • • • '- -
The SPEAKER then left the Chair. •
.- -.- e , .
hadoffered nothing to the ComMittee in extenuation of
After it few verbal alterations had been' agreed to, the -All
quent
•.•- - • -
his offence. Is which Passed through the Committee.
IReport was ordered be
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said a veryfew wort .
' The House then resumed, and the.
were not distinctly audible in the gallery, in consequence of some
brought up on Thursday next.
-
noise which just then prevailed.
•
M BROUGHAM was BROUGHA *as quite clear in the opinion,;
that the JUDGES' SA LARIES, BILL. hat
of the EXCHEQUER moved t
proper coterie would be to have the offender ordered into cus- The-CHANCELLOR
ofthat for receiving the report on the resolutions relative te
tody of the Sergeant at Arms, and brought to the bar
salary to the Judges be now read.
he had been the increase of
House, where if he confessed the offence of which
1
was accordingly Teat • . . .
.. . .
convicted, lie might be permitted to urge whatever he had td The order
f the FXCHFQUER in
The CHANCELLOR o 1:Y CHEQUER, , ~moving.
say in extenuation.
took occasion to notice certain
the .which oc- that, this report below received, .,
The SPEAKER repeated that on occasion .
curred in 1736, the House had acted upon the report of their had 14eri made on a former evening respect-
, . observations that
t • o
Ciammittee.
• ing the proposed increase the salary of the judges.. , Under-
Mr. Secretary PEEL had no objection to the course siig- standing it to be the wish of the Mouse that the retired ;glow_
gested. ante of thepuisne judges
should be reconsidered, Iu) h de-
Mr. BROUGHAM thought the course would _ hits_
be plain if voted his attention to that peint, and it.had naturally i 0 to a
there were only one species of punishment. modification of the furl sale • (
ar 1 —His object .a he
salaries.—(Hear He 1 object, :as
ayearto the .sne
- ted its au- had already explained, in proposing 6,0001.
..pin
ro-
be Mr. BANKES observed, that the House delegated
ase of the retiring ould judges, without any proportionate .increase , . ,
thority to a Committee, and the report of the Committee Should
men of eminence
comes, was twofold—lst, to induce younger 1
od
wake
acted on.
• ' had not de- in the profession to undertake such offices ; and ~ to
Mr. BROUGHAM replied that the Commigee .
be worth. the acceptance of men of
•nature of the punishment which the income such as would
livered any opinion as to the
..
fessior—neither of which considers.,
be • inflicted. They found the man guilty of the great prospects in the pro . . . , . .
ought to
. •andthen to be ten- lions had been, I thought, sufficiently attended to, in the exist.
le
offence. He had been convicted, was
c things.;lle had also considered the subject of
ing state o,
tenced.had ot come
PEEL' was desirous 'of Perfect unanimity in translating judges from one court to another, but n ,
31r. Secretary
regarded a breach of privilege; he therefore to any. fixed conclusion triton it ; for, though be thougla, it a
any case which the bench qtould
Trench Pilkington be brought to the highly prejudicial principle that promotion..on .
...,
Moved, that Robert Poor
erucular duties in that
be made a reward for the discharge of p.
steely of the Serjeantat Arius. bar of that House in the en .
_.
high station, yet he felt it would be going too far, to, say-the
The question wastlien putand Carried •
in no case should it be competent for the Government to make
SALMON FISHERIES.•
such promotion.—(Hear !)-.-With respect to the retiring..alloiv.
the
nt modification of, the full selary,:what
FOSTER rose topresent a petition from
Mr. LESLIE
Ireland,against maces, and the consequent .
. a pal.from e
deduct 5001 ' -th
of certain Corn mills at Slane, in
he Meant to propose was this—to . , ,
Proprietors'
they conceived that the effect s s
lof 6 0001. a year to the puisne judges,,and
the Salmon Fisheries Bill, as
*e. original proposition
.. .
.2 3001
would be to obstruct the navi„a- .
Iso deducted to the. retirmg allowence of, , .
of some of its enactments
their to add.the 500 ..
situated.—The would be 5,4i0.01. a year, and the
lion of the river on which mills were
a year ;so that the full salary , _ _ t
table.
petition was then brought up and ordered to lie on the
retiring one 2,8001. This arrangement could not.,, he hottgb ,
double object of seeiming
• ATTORNIES IN IRELAND. be reduced .
without comprising the
• 1 fll and of that class
from certain
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER presented a petition
of a bench required. • The
Attornies in Ireland, complaining of the necessity which the of eminence •Which the duties ee, ,
members of their profession, of annually question of the retired allowances could not he regularly; mo.
law
Imposed on
the
hich was ordered to be printed.—He ified, on the kris ing 4of this report, but lie would propose
taking out a licence, which
Att lespractising at the it re-committal of the particular resolution which, em-
Quarter Sessions a latition from certain • orn
_. . „ on a
Quarter Sessions in Ireland, complaining of the low amount of h ofsubject,,
:. , , .•
braced that branch -the su je • b' ~, c _
fees for which, in some cases, they were bound to afford their Mr. SCAR LETT said, that he would,;: on groupd, en deli_
professional services.—Ordered to liehe table. cacy, refrain now, as he had done on .a former occalionaeorn
on the
1 Al oisne.
POOR, TIE WRNS.
.. um ncing any opinion on the amount of sa.ary of ie p
PT( II ,
- ro ioeed
T. P. COORTENAY laid on the table of theellouse a I
Mr.odes but he could not forbear from noticing the.:p I
Ordered arrangement for retiring.allowances., Now .11e thouglit, when
t from a Select Committee on the Poor Returns.
report
to be printed. they considered
how seldom such retirements were celled- for,—
. .
MERCHANT SEA3I-EN. he hardly remembered mote than two together in . Itis: .times—
that that branch of the consideration was of far has consequence
than the settlement of the full Salary. If a judge,, then, were
to.receive 5,5001. a year while on the bench, he inu,st say; .that
2,800/. a-Tear appeared to him too little, in coinperisortefor A
retiring allowance, and hardly enough to. enable the individualindividual,.
to maintain that station in society 1
w )0,116 previous offiee.se-
quired, and which the connexions . and, situation of its ; duties
must, in a great degree, still entail upon him, though be.,liad
ceased to perform the functions of a judge., Theeffect, then, of
being too economical in the. retired allowanc.e, might be,detri-
mental to the public service, by comPelling a jedge to amass
longer in office than his heelth and faculties warranted, ~He
remembered, indeed, an instance of, this : the lute Baron Wood,
who wee an excellent judge, a profound lawyer, anti a person of
great sagacity, at a very advanced age retired from the-northern
circuit ; and instead Of qUitting the profession altogether... Was
offered the seat•in the Court of Exchequer, which he could not,
under the circumstances,,; well refuse, ~The consequence was,
however, ultimately painful,;
_for the Baron'e infirmities- grew
. .• so fasst, trender it most unpleasant to himself, to
upon him let, as 0
the bar, and to the public,, to have the,administratien,, of justice
conducted by !tithe, he, had at length lost one eye and; both ears.
.
This wouldnotshave hanened, were the retiring pension ade-
quate. TO remedy such defect, he thought the retiring allow-
, elec ought to 'be 3,5001. a year, to hear any fair proportion
with the full salary
,of 5,500/. It ought to be. remembered
that a judge could net retire when,he pleased—the government
requiring his full
eoption ofpermitting Inm, and ,
had always the. .
drat he was capable of. pee-
s•i;riiices, as Jong as it was obvious • .
1..
• forming them..
h h
to notice—one. which, if carried into effect, ,wouid,,
,e,. ze,clE no
doubt, be alike pleasing to the.iidge and useful to the public—
lie Meant the employment of
the Judges in a particular man-
ner, even when. they had retired—he meant in the .Privy
Council.4llear!)—See the duties which devolved upon that
body ! The subject at home had all the different Courts of

_.

• but not so hem both in and out of
, ---- decision to another ; so—to make excuses of all kinds foe t
.Apeseal open to him from one good
and he had no doubt it required all his great ingenuity to do
the. subject in the British colonies,
Ind yet who had only thle
teo I[their
h h t to attempt in England seist in
prised the whole Indian ernore.,.
.14-r
ey_P Council to appeal to, and the I ,
s) *hat importance then was it net, u
1 which, be it remembered, .
that the Privy Council some of udernent there was tine
n matters of law, es
debate
p e—o te t em t a
thei House—to correspond back and forwards with these
A laugh .Ihear")—then to manage matters
hin
rchects would be just as much as his head was.
hould be so composed for its decision
1 1 ued all day with the lawyers, but
perspi- . in Parliament,
''..io. be enabled to adjudicate with leg agyet all this for 6,0001. a-yearl T e
gone y r.ecision and
roily . 1 He had known in times
ruin to attend precip .
b P(for he spoke not of puisne j(tidges,w ereonaynpd
when the (Laughter)—not so satisfactorily, indeed, precipitate decisions of the Foreign Secretary. wasp lagu.ed with
the present), the greatest
it be otherwise,
tOe Council. How, indeed, could
upon other matters, the lawyers Right
acute ithfortheerthearlipanrtlygh, tror
members were -persons, however
ahit
of discriminating in Hon a
h d lithdade ofrtennotechwanheeen otfhegyaingrinagppalecaduwseithbyddleay, lsoult
whose minds were not in the daily h
for the puisne judges : he would pro;
rohenssional experience into the a-year was quite enough
to lop off 5001. from the resolution of 5,500..
• teehenical matters of nice legal ce struction, and of bringing . Gentlemanoby night. On the whole, he thought 5,00 •
that particular koowledge and p ,
did not always arise ; for while. aeyeareand h
eonslideration which the case essentially' required. He knew pose then, at once,enaeanod
assistance of his Hon. and Learned Friend near him.
that this cause of complaint did oubt in this reduction he should have
.Shir Wm. Grant attended the Privyfeet constitution, both by na- . Council, they were sure of the
Of the most per himself.
-MSCARLETT—" No, indeed, you shall not."—(Loud
•oe aid of a lawyer . was pOSSible to form of man—one of laughter.)
_:ire and education, that it.ional
I Let him not be told of the refusal of profess
the greatest and most uprith g
h
t
had not always the aid of his —Wear .)
characters that ever adorned the Mr. BROUGHAM said, well, then, he must do it
beneh—(Hear !)--bnt e 1
I would not take it ; but there were two
great knowledge and talenSrfoicr he remembered that at the gentlemen to ascend to the bench for such a salary. It was easy
Scarlet[) and Sir Samuel Romilly ways. of making
time when Sir Win. Grant for some reason declined attending for a lawyerkttou
the Privy Council, he (Mr. sathYe offer, which reminded him of an observe-
there , had that it was one
had on one occasion to attend• and he recollected thet !ion of
saida hauogeous friend, wthhmogwasto alsoak ofa
Ittaeuprtoofteasskieona,
the bottle was on the table before him, and anotheris too
wheny "Sir,
resent thought they should have
seven appeals were at that time decided quite contrary to tiedram
way in which all the lawyers
sae
h ou ?w"il---(1
Dom, Now, would it dot be
, byemag them members of the
pwell to call upon retired JudgesyAoulaaollgoiwt.
re
res
y the b and then they would see who would refuse it.
ettpceplolamrtmforenatflh. flask to
ta' assist an these occasions'
a b much less
than that on the feted tol bar,( )—meOtonlseynledt to the
independence of the judges, the King had properly
Coanoil ? The labour would
a retired Judge could generally
As
tothe looked upon it as the best means of upholding the
bench, and the ditty such as
f tigues. In this view he wished said,.
that
the administration of justice and alsc as being the
discharge without oppressive allowances. Before he sat down dignety o d _
cive to the honour of the drown. Here the Hon.
_ to be liberal in the reuretnent a
opportunity to have the resolution
most
conducive
ud
(lend an referred to the message from the late
he was anxious to ask for an
opinion to rob the Chief Jus- and Learne
l.
nt,
which made the judges not removable on
re-considered, which went in his
a fund, out of which to King to.Paroia thefParliament,
Crown, and
_,pointed out the popular mistake
doe of a part of his income, to create the demisefor rendering the
could he propose such are- to George 111. the first step
the puisne Judges. When which attributed .
AS takeu by King William,
ay
hidges independent, whereas it w.
consideration ? E uER doubted whe- J
K. o only altering the Act of Parliament to make
The Clieti NCEI,LOR of the EXCH Q
stood before the House, the late in, .
survive the demise of the
Crown. The next point to
ther it was competent, as the questionl r salary, though a ream-- them sur
would direct the attention of the House was the
to propose the increase of any permute
He was, however, which he
translation of judges from one office to an-
den was practicable consistent with
lorm. impropriety of the
should have the op-for promotion on the bench; as' in the
• ious the Ron. and Learned Gent eman other. This looking up
make men look rather to their maker
anx he (the Chancellor of the Ex.
orally tended to time
portunity he-required, although
respecting the salary of church, nature
public good. He would not say that within his t
chequer) retained his original opinion than to the
he had seen any had consequences
the Chief Justice.
by way of increaseand ex silence p.
.certainly never
obtain such promotion—he had _
The SPEAKER said, that no alteration ambition to .
the only spoke
of•roceedings.their criminal judges, (he . k
d in this stage their p
seen it to operate amongle
of salary could be propose
between the CHANCELLOR
andnot of the office of Chancellor, which being paw
then took place,
of them,
must of course more expose the
A conversation ETT
Um and Mr. SCARL v . i, .
dicta
andpartly political,
of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. Bno
report was brought up. On Joule, .
fl nee —among them he certainly had never ob-
• t of form, when the possessor to in ue )
as an honest man, say that
upon the poinJudges
• ries of the being put
served it. He could not, However,
the resolution respecting the sale
•torte ri effect on some judges front
front the Chair, forward the subject of he had not sometimes seen a
table
bias—he admitted it to b -n are, and unaccoun
Mr. BROUGHAM rose to
bring
the proposed arrangement Particular
.rcumstances—but g: erally the bench was
which he had given notice respectingf the Judges from one Judi- from peculiar
filled.
Still the Crown ought, for its own sake, to
of the salaries, and the translation o
o re-open the whole admirably fille
of tendency to which lie alluded, or the pos-
cial office . to another—in fact, t
exception in all remove the sort
existence. If they wished to preserve the
question. He agreed without a__
H singled Learned Friend, sibility of its
in the public esteem, they ought to put
that had just fallen from his on.
tuanities and profound purity of the judges
He foresaw the difficulty which would
whose great experince, varied oppor them above suspicion.
I entitled him to great proposition, and the choice which would, be
knowledge upon such matters, juhset y
could assure the House, be opposed to his
the positive prohibition to translate a per-
weight in this discussion. It was, left to him between.
retiring salaries of thedefault of finding any candidate so conipe-
the universal opinion at the bar, that the son of high merit in
to their full emolu-once in half a century, and the other
Judges ought to bear a nearer proportion tent, which might occur..
thought the proposed ded of constant translation. Between those
meats ; he was therefore one of those who danger which he dreaded
the arrange- the first. He did not wish to be driven
scale was a bad one, and particularly respecting
give up so much vale- two evils, he would elect
embrace, by a re-
He rather chose to
merit for the Chief-Justice, who was to
as 800/. addi- to a legislative remedy. h .
ci le which had, in the very same
able patronage for so inadequate a compensation
of solution of the House, t eprin p.
of that brilliant act of the
dunes
comparison between the
adopted for the basis
tional a-year. There was no manner, been.a . .
of the utmost import- d in the preamble the same intention
which rotesse
the chief and puisne Judges., and it was _ _
el' enity of last rogn,, p
ofsecuring the independence of the
so placed, from the le import-
which he now held—that
ace that the former should be
thatproper sway which the w who was promoted to be
case of Baron Eyre,
his station, in a capacity to exercise
andwhich could not be judges. The
then Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, was,
due discharge of• business required,Jed es were to be nearly Chief Baron, and
one of the kind up to that period. He
practically effected, if the four sitting • g .
man conversant in the business he believed, the only
d • of the translation of a Master
nfessed have less rent
of co.ortlinate influence. Every
it was that the chief would, heco ,
In the latter case, the individual
of the Courts must be aware how useful
intrinsic authority, so -as of the Rolls to the same office.
feel the conflict of interest and duty as in
should be invested with extrinsic arel
of the Courts. The Was not so likely
He to
would have no predispositions as to questions of
to keep a.proper sway over the proceedingsbusiness must be done, a the former.
libel—hewould have no peculiar feelings acquired front
fact was, that in any Court where
which should be taken by the paoli deal
I habits in administering the law of high treason—not
great deal depended on the lead
therefore, in dimishing the .P diciate
eat
questions which affected the interests
chief Judge. Whatever was done,
Pro ]Salo diminish that in any of
1 fire revenue, or the tithes. H is wish was,tr
emoluments of the Chief-Justice, must p
ed with that of the puisne i of the Crtooweim,
emancipate them altogether front any bias on their
sway in kind and station, as couairarood
working of the business I however,
from any suspicion of bias in the public mind..l.
Judges, with whic • h it was for the g .
ChiefJuetice I judgment, and
d. Besides a' • He did not recollect any other 'instance of this kind of trans a-
. of the court he ought to be clothe
tit of business peculiar Ithe
the time of the Regency. But of late years _
had, as he had already stated, a quan
Ythan the other judges; I lion up to
had increased, so that in thirteen years there had
to himself, beyond all comparison greaterd in Lord Ellenborough's I practice
less
than six acts of judicial translation. This was
' let them remember how it amouote
to
dispose of a Guildhal4
beennoThe first of these cases was that of Sit V. Gibbs,
time, when on one occasion he had
he did to the astonishment enormous.of very strong political character ; and therefore,
the
paper, containing 588 whichcauses,.
The business was. not now a Man
liable in a considerable degree to
and admiration of the profession. calculation, as
five times greater than . ordinary
to which his observations referred, though,
- so great as it was then, but still it was influence . r
eld • the proportion
was as 60 to l admitted, in practice a very pure, impar-
in the time of Lord 3lansfie ,
1 heavier duties which he very wiling y
enlightened Judge. Ile was Attorney-General in
350. When he spoke of the superior and tiol, and
ed not to be consi-I n warm ade a Puisne Judge of the
devolved upon the Chief Justice lfo.begg
very troublous timfe ;
hth!....i.rer.. ,
rite
irtailrcaiifiTs..
ny f whom (par-
ep-hweedieen.wwinnAftePYtlerik talP2Vors° Pries sittings feria] side)—no man more readily admitted his hgh qualities
. from nine o'clock every morning until four o'clock, the con- andhulicialexcellence, his eminence as a lawyer, and hisainiable
- scant taking down of evidence, which was so much more him- disposition. He was first a Master in Chancery, then a Puisne
rious than merely hearing arguments at the bar—this business Baron of the Exchequer, then Chief Baron. And here he could
of what Mr. Bentham would call " single seated justice." tell not observe how groundless was the fears of not heingable to
heavily and laboriouslyupon them, and the Chief' had always get able men to accept these offices. A Master in Chancery
. the great responsibility of dispatching it. Asa proof of the su- I had one of the easiest and most lucrative situations under the
perior sway which attached to the Chief Justice in proceeding Crnwn ; and yet Chief Baron Thompson gave up all the de-
with business, he remembered that shortly before Lord Ellen- lights and advantages of it to go into the Exchequer, one of
- borough retired, one or two of the Puisne Judges were in the the dullest Courts in the universe—(laughter)—to attend the Old
- habit of sitting for him by turns, at Nisi Prins ; but, vexed Bailey, and to drudge upon the circuit, he (111 r. Brougham)
ene morning at the accumulating arrear of business, his Lorin having seen him upon the northern circuit in his turn for many
• Ail), as if by a sudden illUmination which was to shine out years. At that time, too, the salaries were much less than at
before his mental light became eclipsed for ever, resumed his present. The next case was that of Baron Richards, first So-
place in Court, and swept away in the course of that single licitor-General, then Puisne Baron, then Chief. Mr. Abbott,
sitting 17 causes, which stood in the way of the regular and the present Chief Justice, was a puisne judge. He admitted
quick dispatch of business. It was this consideration of the that no man more able, more perfectly competent in all re-
- value and the great additional labour of the Chief Judge,. spects, could have been chosen. .Justice Dallas was the sixth
. which induced him to say that 800/. a year additional was no case; and that of Justice Best was the seventh, and all in 13
compensation for the office—no remuneration for the proposed years. Why, it was vain to talk of any other rule: this was
, transfer of its patronage (containing, among others, two offices become the common practice. In his opinion this was the
which sold for 20,000/.): and therefore he complained.— wrong course : they ought not to put the judges in that situa
His next objection to the scale was regarding the Vice- tion in which translation placed the bishops, where their duty
- - Chancellor—an office now filled by Sir John Leach, than to the public and to their patrons must conflict with each other.
whom there was not in the profession a more learned A year ago every chief in Westminster-hall had been promoted
. ornament. The Lord Chancellor was of course a learned from an inferior judgeship. - The Lord Chancellor had been
man—a very learned man—he must be deemed the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Chief Justice. Abbott had
most learned of the lawyers ; but still the value of been puisne of his Court. Chief Justice Dallas and Best, and
all these acquirements must be measured by their pub- Chief Baron Richards, had all held places as puisne judges.
lie utility, and that almost entirely consisted in their applica- Every one of the Arch-Judges had been a common judge
. lion to the dispatch of business ; it was there that the ITice- translated, as an Archbishop was generally made from a 13i.
Chancellor shone conspicuous, for lie did nothing else but shop. This ought not to appertain to the appointment of a
_ decide causes. He sat in his Court, not from eleven till two judge, who was to be watched by a jealous bar and a no less
o' dock, but from ten till four—ay, and lie used to come down jealous public. Men were but
men. It was not enough that
while suffering excruciating torments from indisposition, and those who held that sacred office should be put out of the way
when his physician said that he was fitter for his bed than for of temptation—they ought to be placed above the suspicion of
the bench—nevertheless, the Vice-Chancellor was in his Court, it. Reverting to the difficulty which he had before mentioned,
and dispatching . business. He was, therefore, to all intents , he preferred shutting out the promotion of the most deserving
and purposes, a Judge, if the person deserved that name who judge once in 50 years, awl amidst a dearth of the requisite
was really a judger—(A laugh.)—lle knew many who thought talent, to leaving the subject so open to jealous animadversion.
so. and even those who would rather run the risk of having He meant no offnce to any one man—he spoke theoretically:
their causes hastily decided before the Vice-Chancellor, than He went by his knowledge of human nature. He proposed to
never haie them decided at all elsewhere. And yet this was insert in the resolution—" Whereas it is expedient to secure
••. the Judge whose salary in the scale was to bear no adequate the independence of the judges by providing them adequate sa-
- proportion to that of others in the sante line of rank. God wot, Inlet; ; and whereas it is unwise and inexpedient to promote
. where was the comparison of giving 7,000/. a-year to the puisne judges to be chief justices, or puisne barons to be chief
• :. Master of the Roll, and 8,0001, to the Chief Baron ? The barons."
- business of the Master of the Rolls Was nothing compared with` The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought it would he very
. the -Vice-Chancellor's, who had the Court of Chancery business,. unwise and inexpedient to adopt the resolution as it was
- in fact., to :perform. This scale, therefOre, was wrong, and moved by his. Hon. and Learned Friend. Neither the his-
must be altered. He also thought that the salary of 8,000/, tory of present or of past times proved it to be at all neces-
a-year - for -the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas trod too . sary. A resolution of the House in the last reign had been
closely upon that of the Chief of the Court of King's Bench, _inserted as thereamble of an Act for securing the rode-
who was Chief Justice of all England. As to the salary of the pendence of the Judges and the due administration of justice ; -
puisne judges--and he spoke it in a place from which his ex- but--that formed no case to justify the resolution now pro-
, pressions would in a few hours be conveyed to the bench—he posed, which, if good in principle, ought to be constituted
thought the proposed seek too high, and that they would be into the rule by legislative peavision. He thought it scarcely
. well and truly paid with 5,000 e a year,,—( le ear !)—When he fair to attempt to carry it under the colour of an opinion given
- said this, the House must feel he gave a disinterested opinion ; by the House. If it were wise to forbid the promotion of Puisne
- for it was not pleasant to speak in reduction of the incomes of Judges, let that be expressed. But if the matter were to be
. those in whose presence he must spend nearly the whole of, his, left to individual discretion, the Crown must be left to ex-
time, and where it was 'desirable for him professionally to hold ercise that discretion. Any particular abuse in its exercise
- a good understanding : still he must say, that 6,0001.-a year might form a ground for legislative interference. It was said I
was for them quite an extravagant remuneration, and he be- that these translations were more numerous than in former
lieved there were none more surprised at it than the judges times, What did that amount to, if in every case a justification
themselves.—(Hear !)—He saw that the whole basin Westmin• was found inunthin the circumstances ? At the time of the ap-
eter-hall were in one ferment of a?tonishnient at the proposition pointment of Chief Justice Dallas, the place was offered to
on the morning after it was made, and they naturally corn- the Attorney-General, wino refused it, Mr Dallas had been
pared the emolument and the duties.witle those of other offices. Solicitor-General. Could it have been offered to a more fit and
. There was the 'Speaker, the first commoner in England, an proper Person—could the situation have been better filled either
- office of great responsibility and heavy labour, attended with for the Court or the public ? His Hon, and Learned friend had
very great expence, admirably sustained rejixesent, as all quite forgotten the practice of past times: Lord Coke was
must know who partook of the dignified op splendid hospi- moved from the Common Pleas to the Chief Justiceslihn Sir
tains, of the Speaker's mansion—(hearl)—tud yet his salary N. Hale was a puisine nudge before he was made Chief Justice.
• was only 6,0001. a year. What comparison was there between Lord Hardwielte was Chief Justice of the King's Bench, and
- ' his necessary expenditure and theta a puisne judge who had then was made Lord Chancellor. Lord Camden was Chief
only the circuit expence to maintain ? Than' there was the Justice of the Common Pleas before he was Lord Chancellor,
office of Secretary of State for the Foreign attliartment, who Yet the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would lead the House to
had to maintain the national hospitality on i suitnble scale, in believe, that since' 1810 a new principle had been adopted.—
'
• the presence of foreigners of rank—who had fils household ex- Accident had multiplied the cases, but there was no new prin-
penditure also swelled by the nearly constant maintenance of cipie. Lord Kenyon was Chief Justice of Chester and Master
messengers--who, besides, had no houselprorhoed for-him, and of the Rolls before he was made Chief' Justice of the King's
indeed whose business consisted of no sinectsee-th( Heat f)—for i Bench. What did all this prove, but that the line could only
he had to listen to the ambitious pretensions eof the Holy Al_ be drawn, however desirable in general to avoid the practice of
Dance, to fence off all their meditated iseseelto. upon. public translation, by individual discretion, and that discretion must
liberty, in the best way he could—to keep them off his hands ; be left with the Crown ? it was against the practice of the

s oaf,
Serjeant,
tdenerhmecoi;seli
ilipmj,enee
deemed
dwtae ocidtu,hbl
that
would
been removed
rivt
iewei
ntaibosi
Constitution to eMbrae. a proposition of this nature in a reso- House's addressing the Crown, requesting it to withhold alto-
House's
which, if good t all, ought to be carried into effect by gether the exercise of such prerogative : and undoubtedly the
House of Commons had the power, if it should see tit to
an Act.
Mr. SCARLETT Clad not" reconcile the inconsistency of do so, to prepare and present an address of that nature. It
his Right Hon. and ',tuned Friend in saying that there ought was not a little singular, that while the Hon. and Learned
to be no resolution, and the conduct of the Chancellor of the Gentleman opposite had ound so much fault with the Hon. and
Learned Gentieman on h. • (Mr. P el' .) side of the House, (br
Exchequer in proposinea resolution. If it were inexpedient,but of a private
speech no examples ,
understand the design. of his Hon. and Learned Friend near kind, no instances
,but particular ones; that lion. Member s
then why was any resoltition proposed ? le could perfectly having adduced. in his 's
e s
him, who wished to propose the sentiment of the House (which (Mreßrougham's) own address was almost entirely confined to
he must take leave to Say was that of public opinion generally) tehveersyingbloedcyastetionfstMard.mßiatrwonitf:agrrtoe
in a way which would handit down to posterity for the guid-
ance of their conduct. But he invited his Right Hon. and highest talent and learning ; and who ought, in the Hon. and
great wjuhsotmicel)ieaisleasentilahnetiof(atnhtei
Learned Friend to consider the effect of what he had uttered. Learned Gentleman's opinion, to have been raised to the chief
He lad allowed no ticalification whatever : he declared every justiceship. But the fact was, that to cite instances of this sort
resolution of the kind to be unwise and inexpedient. Again, was only to provoke discussion on the appropriate and relative
let him only remark the inconvenience of intrenching himself merits of existing judges ; and both on that account, and be-
behind individual -case,. ilow was it possible for his opponents cause he thought it would be highly inexpedient to agree to the
to argue with him" while he remained in such perfect safety ? resolution proposed, he would beg leave to refer to the terms in
" Whereas it is expedient to secure the independence of the
IH'hoeny. tookand gleinecarranledanod abstract grounds, to which the Right which it was drawn up, or would be afterwards expressed in—
estleman, without any reasoning upon
udges by adequate salaries; and whereas it is expedient and
them at all, opposed individual circumstances. Of course there j
could be no argument oe those terms. Suppose he were to take injurious to that independence to promote puisne judges to be
up the statements of tht Right lion. and Learned Gent. and chief justices.and chief barons." IVell,but the Hon.and Learned
In the time in which Mr. Garrow was gentleman himself did not propose to take away absolutely, and
PAutttoarnlieya-r(trennlearralaistheer*e Isere no less shan three vacancies—two under all possible circumstances, this power of appointment.
as Chief Baron, and Ste as Chief Justice of the Common " Let it only he exercised," said he, "in cases of rare and dis-
Pleas. Were either of these offices tendered to Mr. Garr
? tinguiehed merit." But, supposing this preamble once agreed
Was- he not a man of eloquence equal to any man--of conetn. to, and passed as part of the new law, would it not afterwards
mate talent in his ProfOsionof high legal attainments v` What be quite impossible for the Crown to promote any person, being a
objection could there have been to his appointment ? ould puisne Judge, to the Chief J usticeship, however extraordinary
it be pretended that he Was like some other great men who had might be hi- merits and qualifications, without very great disad.
preferred ease and rethetient ? Alas !he solicited and obtained vantage to that individual ?—(Hear !)—Would it not, under the
the situation of puisne tidge. It was impossible to offer an ob. import of the Hon. and Learned Gent.'s own language, which
jection to his aoPointwtat, and yet three chief judgeships were I went positively, and without any.exceptions, to declare all such
vacant, and not one waseele.reo to him. It could not be presumed ' nominations inexpedient id injurious—would it not be very
that the Chaneellor, wheliad the recommendation of the judges, 1 unfair towards any puisne Judge to select him for' a promotion
wished to insult l't man of Baron Garrow's character by quietly I that must of necessity. in the face of those terms, appear so
passing him by. It wastouch less to be supposed that lie would 1 invidious ? The party's elevation could only suffice to cast a
before that have adviseihis promotion to the office of Attorney I reproach upon his character, and a stigma on his independence.
General, if he had not bten convinced that he was equal to the I Still, however, there was much in the Learned Gentleman's
highest offices of the law. Such was the inconvenience of argu- i (_Mr. Brougham's) general reasoning against which he (Mr.
ing upon individual casee. As to the cases of former times, lie
; Peel) was not at all prepared to contend. But all, that he de-
had always understood that Lord Hardwicke had taken the i sired to do on this occasion was to show that in a case of this
Chancellorship veryunwillingly. The Right Hon. Gentleman kind there was but one alternative for the House to pursue.
should recollect, thatit 'only belonged to modern times fors If the Crown should ever abuse the power it was invested
Chancellor to hold the seals for 25 years, or half a century.— with in respect to the appointment of judges, it would
At that time a Lord Chancellor was considered only as a Mini- always be open to the House to proceed for remedy of such
stet subject to removal with his friends; no one dreamed of hold- a grievance by address. To a resolution, like this now sub-
ing that great and lofty situation for life as in our times. No milted to the House, he must strenuously object, as being
doubt the public e.eri .91 the highest advantages from the judge ; decidedly unconstitutional. If the House could . constitu-
who no held the oe. But could Lord Ellenhorough be I tionally proceed by a resolution of this sort, touching a pre-
prevailed upon to accept it ? No; he preferred being Chief t rogative of the Crown in a legal matter, it might proceed in
Justice of the King's Bench. Lord Mansfield refused the I a similar manner as to the Crown's prerogatives. And the
seals :Lord Camden accepted them with difficulty to oblige! Huse of Commons might proceed on the same principle, by
hie party ; nor was NO ever known to be satisfied with the address to the throne, in relation to the appointment of almost
exchange. Until the Right Hon. Gentleman could get up a every individual holding office by its nomination. As to the
joint stock company to insure the possession of the office for Chief Baron of Scotland, who had been alluded to, the Chief
half or quarter of a century, the promotion of
.a Chief Jus- Justiceship had been offered to that Learned and excellent per-
Oa to a Chancellor, such would always be the case. It was son; but was declined by him on account of his deafness; and
not proposed to prevent the Crown from translating puisne as to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's observation in rela-
judges, but only to give expression to the general feeling. tion to the present Master of the Rolls—
He remarked the impropriety of quoting the cases of Lords Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, begged to say that his
Coke and Hale, Who were deposed from their places, and observations applied to Chief Justices of the King's Bench
put down to the bar. It was admitted. that the Creiwn was exclusively.
not to be restrained, but it belonged to either House of Pare Mr. PEEL was of opinion that the discretion of the Crown
lianietit to make propositions of this kind in the. nature of I in these matters ought to he left altogether unfettered, unless it
Advising. Was meant to be proposed to take it away altogether; in which
Mr. Secretary CAlsZNlNG:hough, Sir, I do not feel case a bill for the specific purpose must be brought in, and must
ASS through both Houses of Parliament, where it would of course
myeelf so competent to pronounce an opinion upon this question P
as some of the Learned Gentlemen who have favoured us with undergo -very considerable discussion. The present resolution
their sentienentse yet taking into consideration all that I have Provided matter merely for the preamble ; its principle would
herd to-night, I must say that 1 find in the speeches and ar. at once limit the prerogative of the Crown, and impose upon it
guments of _the two Learned C ounsel, and in the detailed (Es- a sort of necessity to consult the House of Commons upon al-
cussion .upon this measure, a reason which I co sure must most every judicial or similar appointment. On these grounds,
prevent every iadividual who heard them from consenting to , and considering that the suggestion, if carried into effect, would
\
adopt the resolution which it is proposed should form albe an unconstitutional one, he should certainly oppose this re-
preamble to the Bill. 'lf it is fit, Sir, that no discretion should solution.
be vested in the Crown, with regard to the appointment of the Mr. 111331 E, in allusion to the appointment of the present
talri,nliepteraanttivlec* be passed by the Legislature, and let it be Lord Chief justice of the Common Pleas, described it as an iip-
UPon the Crown to appoint only persons' such i pointinent which there was not one individual at the bar who
situations as may be named by that Act, and under such re- I did not' tleprecate. It was most unpleasant to the
.country,
re-
strictions as Parliament may think proper to impose. But if
it is tit that the Crown should still retain that discretion in the 1 Crown.—(l-lear !)
appointment of the Judges, which I think for the efficient i and most disgraceful to those who recommended it to the
Mr. Sergeant oNsLow declared that the Hon. Member
1 administration of justice it should retain, why then, Sic, I for Montrose, so far from now speaking the sentiments of the
think it should be left unfettered by any,
restrictions, subject bar of England relative to the appointment of Lord Chief Jut-
only to question on the proof of a grolet abuse of its power tice Best, was tittering those that wets., exactly the reverse of
of selection ; put not liable to re-examination or correction
without just ground of complaint, and certainly not subject to j
a resolution like the one now sought to be introduced into
Ithem.—(hear'.)—While at the bar, not only was this eminent
udge one of the ablest men in Westminster-hall, and at the
head of his circuit, and sought after in his own Cola., and in
the preamble of this Bill, which neither perfectly points out all the other Courts, but h:estiwceas uesntiiir(shali
el"distinguished for
the course to he pursued, nor leaves the Crown the free ex- his uncommon industry and research. Since he had become a
said, the practice followed with respect
ercise of its right of appointment ; but hy a kind of side-long ijudgeolie had manifested the same integrity anhtelaraii_ica_tioti.
his former carepeornriet(uaHnewnee
diattackspcuee discussion
hisiol not
hint, as
aasbilaswoofutlhelactaililinitd,
tthliiirnowtismeokuntoawiliiee(itge_neciej;;tbinrgatplipeoainpti andmtrh.a,Dt e:NteAnis.ilv:lkn, :ledge of his profession that had marked
like to know how'
exhibitspnioeirin ttmlveanystettrotyf
Lts)letirer(ienJv•gai
sltychdeteisieluz:;l at:: theß Representatives
en:ll:eat: cvee
so fof thet h Ile opuesoep
people.
slieldiotno tWhe
I—No:win:1:
iel_maslertlatt:
,14.1.1hai
akte
.Ith:et: .lflugpuoene stlitlairse
(at.
lit Isi
.the Crown
‘,. f , _ ~ ,
‘5. I,....„2rl,esllmi.o.ini„viallirociprs2aipls,:s:ici
intrgorif:tiof:gni
xee pol,liiip.teti Csai,liiositibri iipai 1111,4u:I
mi.
fp.ooel upon
eovfwwelnitihhcteho_
example
reaer(r:lalrne.
ence to a casewhii,
Regency Lill
the
~01n e
wb
at
ti i
atreentrinn byits anartett:erer:
°off
ttbhee
Learnedmerit
resolutions like that uonndeero
debate upon the ' I principle: I would maintain. In the but he should
it
dHouse, nodiscussion.t e Judges;
it would be granting too much power to a
year 1810, it was thought of Commons
,rmyeeaßteenennitorwaarys
to
have the invested with only person about to be
remove-
thought, if the I
' as many Peers as lie thoughtg };roper during the time of his Re- rweamsostaTidd.ifa
. gency, and it was therefore proposedl
power should
knowledged merit. T)
he limited to tt selection
There
did not see that whatever w•
right, and by giving the
the question of right or wrong,
latitude w
making the House
hicli strictly belonged
the IV' persons to the Peer;
strictly i
House assume it as
into the merits
might think fit to
fined i • itself strictly to the h
fore,
without pronounsintle
authority, as it was then to addresstheP
the power of making able, by address of that
Something
by some persons. that the Judge (Mr. Kenricq ta•
only of persons of ac- yet nothing had
was not a man in the House who neither had the
giit be wrong, that was not the proposition
they could prevent the House
English .Judge had been
give satisfaction the ouelt
mightn have• justified his_ removal,
Since the Judges were made
on wouldb e not
eevneeendvipil
l(aailvaputcerpoeiobnciigeanniel ntslneeo
appointed.
rot
ns.
raised
iaasttt
He
dyeeHeryti
eoonpecithattes:
a. .
Iresdtel,
transpired with respect to a Welsh
been done upon the subject •
ing to the
of his Hon. *
ee of Commons a right to discuss to support. The
they were getting beyond the Chief Justiceshi
andthe country
to them ; that they were been a resolutionP
, parties to the eleva- not be raised to that dignity..
a right,os, and that they were making man universally
and almost as a duty, to examine situation, according
character of those whom' - •
raise to that 1
honour and to see that it con- meritoriously,
odaries oft its liniitation. I, there- The Hon. ;11 Crown ex • ' its •
C. W. WYNN '
exercised right of removing, The
Journals, 1
os ,f thatall
timpeuliesgnael jpurodtg.cesssisolni o. u 1 d
and Learned Friend appeared entitled
promotion of Mr. Justice Abbott to the
ignity.. illr. Sergeant Lens, a Gentle-
tionthought the judges must have acted
re-
of appointing the
Judges g whether the power vested in the Crown had been * ember had alluded to a Welsh judge. No
or not, but with a stro according to its pleasure, be restrained move him. made out, and it was difficult for the Crown to case
ed, think that the authtirintPinien that it ought not to be restrain- ference ofheile
should not exist
to him,
together. authority both the Crown and this House at the time of 1 House of Commons. The Hon. Gentleman said
be taken away, it should be ut if the power of the Crown is to respectable Gentleman
appointment of the Lord Chief Justice a most
he could not have accepted it ; his state of
Parliament; and if that done by law, by an express Act of time hiel •
tension which it 1 • power is to be retained, anti that di knew highest encomiums on that excellent Gentleman bu- at
has huh
should be left wh:)11 ' hitherto had is still to be exercised, it ofiered
that if the office of Chief Justice of Chester had the
Y subject to the been
left subject as this preamblele usual responsibility, but not health did not
tion on every occasion, andwould leave it, to be called in ques- Mr. DENllplTit him to take it.
promotion or appointment '• to the consequence of' haying every tion Mr. Serjeant said in explanation, that he did not men
cussion in the Ilouse of , made a matter of canvass aiid clis- theawo
individuals. On
Lord ALTHO Commons.
RPE supported office was open,
The Right lion. Gentleman the resolution proposed.-- in a conditi and Mr. Serjeant Lens was in good health and
and his Hon. Friend' had (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) Mr. IlltOnnUto t
accept the office.
contemplated hy the r said,
thatif this object, which was office of Chief 'HAM said, Mr. Serjeant Lens considered
Learned G I
ent.einao (as ••
resolution 'submitted
by the lion. and which he
at all, it must be r. brougham), • was to be carried into could not accept. character,
the resolution it by
a S''
•
of" Mr. ABERCROI
. as now 1 - lie
.leave
if 1 the ques-
effectnothing more • stood could serve a foundationthey satisfied themselves
than a single in Bill as
for a negative on the proposition of •
an impor•-• Lent novelty as was clause,
a to provide for suck It was a fact thatthe
that Bill only. Ilea thus proposed fbr the preamble Puisne three Chief Justices had been not Friend.
ted from
pound other resolutions-surely it would he very easy to pro- nued, Judges.and they It was a practice which shouldinotThibe conti-
ofthe Bill could be very upon which, in conjunction with this, say it' was could not leave the law as it stood. The
who thought thatPnroPerly brought in. Lie differed from Helmut, utopen to remove a Judge by y might
application
hope or to Par
taken, with the view of introducing
niiddle step as this could be tertained in onto ' expectation of success could be-
such a resplutionee for it would
ducing any bill in pursuance of stances. lie sanwot
nothingtor; to remove a Judge under such cir en-
thosepose of providing 'for the r be a bill with the distinct par- that was unconstitutl in the proposition of his lion. Frciuem.
justice, by regulating tbeg greater purity of the administration of prerogative of the Clown.io nal. It could not interfere with Friend
highly expedient should not exerciseof
a power which it was. Mr. Kenrick, it was of importance.
With respect to the case the
importance.
(if we understood the• Noble
ie. exerted, as it latterly had been asked—ls there no MeThe question had beenof
of Puisne 'Lord rightly) in the appointment Member of Parliament
Judges to be ' •
Mr. PEE Chief Justices.motion against Mr. Kenrick ? ..wh who will make a
L thoueht that ' '
was to be left to ibrin thea it the substance of' this resolution which could rot be anti want of confidence, .
sition was precisely i. matter of the preamble, that prop°. Ilonou bi .d
Learned overcome without the Resolution
that night sag , y lab:..; to the objections which had been the
ra an Friend was carried. of his
therefore - eased on his side ought He considered
, seem to • of the House. It did not, the blasterVice-Chancellor to have the same allowance as
he denied that therethese objections in any way ; tress lay on the Vice-Ch; he great harshen of Equity busi-
open to them betweenwas any middle course of this nature salary to the Master of Vice-Chancellor. lie did not say the
, addressing proposed
abstainment in all casest the Crown, praying it to business in Equity w donethe
Rolls was too much,
but all the
s, and leaving it whatever from making any such appoint- not fair to give hit as by time Vice-Chancellor,
which it
1 at present e • power in this respect The SOLICITOR-GENERAL Master of the Rolls.
appeared to con • exercised. The Noble Lord and others menmade could
!Stela H ' conceive that this was an inconsistencyt by the Hon. 111 • d not concur in the state-
, on. Gentletie ( 1 Chancellor between the quantum of business transacted tonber who had just
spoken. The
had said /, If an t lei ' Exchequer),t shrwl clhdh) Judgesdh:lindawvaPosri
unavoidably
la'
youenable t f the who
itancellor was the
the salaries of me to make this liberal increase in Ch greatest; he not allow-that
Chancellor, however laborious the business of the Vice
to be brought in .
the Judges, there • •
. is a probability that in the Bill Lord Chancellor., lessenedexertions -
future , a clause will be ' introduced to regulate the The •
appointment of ChiefJ ' question was then called
the pr. •
acmeofnominating ustices, and perhaps to abolish For the Resolution fur, and the house divided.
Judges," e ~
(lees, and the them frorn among the
Puisne Against it - - - 29
General) w' ie Hon and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney- '
nu laid ar • Majority - . - 112
posing this- resolution.—(Hearargued against the object altogether, in op- On our
admission to the gallery- - - ---- 83
the imputation !)---Now he (Mr. Peel) denied of,
the
EXCHEQLTE we found the CHANCELLOR
object of his of inconsistency in this case. T
Right Honourable he common cussion, which 11l it opposing further -
and Learned r postponement of the dis-
that instead of 1 • Friend was, The • SCARLEiT had recommended,
the case judges being appointed in future(as had Report was ultimately
generally during the last " '
upwards of 50, or perhaps -.5 years) not until they were The East I • next,
might induce able and 60, years old, this liberal increase night. ndia Judges Bill was postponed to Friday se'n-
theeeenose important meritorious men to come forward for The Canada 'Tradefrom Bill went
en 49 or 45 to 50 and to be read a third t.' through a Committee, and was
agreed with his P •
Light Hon. Friend in ADJOURNI '
no Middle course between* thinking that there was On the • . , lENT OF THE HOUSE.
nPPointnients leaving the prerogative of these the H motion of the CHANCE
unfettered in the hands of the Crown, House adjourneduntil ' LLoit of the EXCHEQUER
n, or this journed at Half- Thursday next.—The House '
Half-past One o'Clock. ad-

CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

-- ---
LIST OF THE MAJORITY AND MINORITY
IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
On the Second Reading of the Catholic Relief Bill.
MAJORITY
Earl Mansfield Lord Colchester
Charleville Gambier
Orford Clandbrassill (E.
I4onsdale noden)
Ilarewood Meldrum (Earl
Cathcart Aboyne)
Brownlow Ravensworth
Beauchamp Delamere
Falmouth Dufferin
Verulam Middleton
Stanhope Teynham
Sheffield Bexley
Kinnoul Gifford
Viscount Sydney Combermere
Sidmouth Grantley •
Lake Grey
Exmouth Dalhousie (Earl)
Beresford Penhurst
Lorton Archbp.Canterbury
Lord De Clifford York
Do la 'Louth
Willoughby de Bishop of ndon
Broke , Lincoln
Hawke St. David's
Bolton St. Asaph
Dynevor Ely
Walsingham Bath&Wells
Rodney Litchfield
Montagu Peterborough
Kenyon Landaff
Stuart(E.Moray) Exeter
Saltersford (Earl Gloucester
Courtown) Chichester
Rolle Chester •
Bolton Elphin
Northwick Down
Carberry Bristol
Redesdale Oxford
Arden Worcester
PROXIES.
Bishop of Hereford Visc. Arbuthnot Lord Gordon (Mar..
Duke of. Clarence Lord Oriel Huntley)
Cumberland Earl Norwich(D. of Earl Chatham.
Earl of Coventry Gordon) Marq. of Cholmon-
Lord Harris Lord Tyrone (Mar. deley
Earl Ferrers Waterford) Lord Newburgh
Lord Manners Lord Wodehouse Earl Talbot
Earl Harcourt Earl Palllett Lord Ribblesdale
Earl of Erroll Earl Nelson Lord Forrester
Lord Loftus(Marq. Bish. of Waterford Earl Plymouth .
of Ely) Bish. of Carlisle Lord Glenlyon
Lord Rivers Ld Fisherwick (M. Duke Marlborough
Earl Manners Donegal) Duke Manchester
Lord St. Helens Earl of Chichester Earl Howe
Lord be Despencer Bishop of Durham Lord Douglas (Earl
Bish. of Winchester Earl of .Malmsbury Morton) •
Lord Stowell Earl of Romney E. Mountedgconabe
Bishop of Bangor Earl Broderick Viscount Carlton
Lord Saltoun (Middleton) Earl Winchelsea
Earl of carrick Earl Stradbroke Lord Bagot
I4ord Vernon Lord Dormer Earl Craven -
Lord Douglas - Earl Wemyss Earl Cardigan
Lord Ross (Earl of Earl Graham (D. Earl Egremont
Glasgow) of Montrose) Earl Clancarty
Earl Kellie Lord Gort Lord Forbes •
Lord Braybrook paired off with Lord Bayning:

Duke of York
Lord Chancellor
Lord Privy Seal
Duke of Richmond
Beaufort
Rutland
Dorset
Newcastle

Wellington
arq.of Winchester
Salisbury
Hertford
Exeter

Northampton
Anglesey
A ilesbury
Thomond
Lothian •
Earl Pembroke
Shaftesbury
Abingdon
Scarborough
A ylesford
Stamford
Macclesfield
lmo Pomfrete
Radnor
Bathurst
A bergavenn y
Strange
Digby
Liverpool
Rochfort
Longford
31 ayo
Enniskillen
O'Neill
Powis

MINORITY
Duke of Sussex Earl Grosvenor Visct. Melville
Lord President Cliefdeu
Ilchester
Duke of Grafton Wicklow Down
Portland Fortiscue Marnard
Devonshire Carnarvon Lord Dacre .
Buckingham Charlernont Howardof Ef..
ArgYll Kingston fingliam
Leinster owad
Donoghmore
H
IWalden of
Marq. Lansdown
Bute
Queensburry
Cambden
Conyngham
Downskire Caledon
Rosslyn
: Earl Essex Minto
King
MOntfort
Grantham •
Holland
Foley
Gaga
Dundas
Yarborough
Auckland
Cawdor
Jersey
Londonderry
Cork
Calthorpe
AlbemarleSuffolk - Morley
somers
Darnley
Roseberry
Suffield
Tankerville ' Ormond
Bristol Clare
- Lauderdale : cagricke Aberdeen
• 'Darlington Visct. Duncan
St.ic,G,ior Wilton
es( yfleoerrri
dem a i n s
' Oxford Hereford Napier
Spencer Torrington Bishop Norwich
' ' Clarendon Duclleyand Ward
PROXIES.
Earl Mulgrave ' Earl Carlisle Earl Lucan
' Marq. Sligo Earl of Hopetoun Earl Derby
EA.
iLv I.
viebilef,sonreercubydr o,
UCHr °mllb gi
el'
Lord Amherst Lord Saye and Sele Marg. Wellesley
Earl Egrcmont Duke of Hamilton Lord Maryborough
• Lord Belhaven Lord Churchill Etirl Cornwallis
Earl Elgin Earl Granard Earl Craysfort
• Viscount Granville Lord Hutchinson Lord Sondes
Marq. Stafford Marq. of Headfort Earl Behnore
Duke of Somerset Lord. Erskine Earl Harrington
• Duke of Bedford Visct. Melbourne Earl De La Ware
Viscount Anson Bishop of Rochester Earl Grenville
• Lord Clinton Cord Gwydyr Lord Cassillis
• Lord Duncie Earl Besborough Earl Buckingham-
' Lord Carrington Lord Crewe shire
Marq. of Tweedale Earl Blesington Lord Alvanley
Lord Hill Earl IValdegravo

MAJORITY
Who voted for the Reading of the Leith Dock Joint Stock
Company Bill that day six months.
Abercromby, Hn.J. Grenfell, P. Robertson, A.
Byng, George Grattan, J. Sefton, Earl of
13entinck, Lord W. Gordon, Hon. W. Smith, J.
Bright, Henry Grant, G. M. Smith, W.
Baring, A. Hume, J. Trent, W. H.
Benyon, B. Heron, Sir R. Taylor, M. A.
Barne, M. Hutchinson, Hon. . Tulk, C. A.
Calcrat, J. C. 11. Wood, Alderman
Carew, R. S. Kennedy, T. F. Wilson, T.
Calvert, N. Lamb, Hon. G. Wilson, Sir R.
Fergusson, Sir R. Leycester, Ralph Werlyss, J.
Farquhar, J. Monck, J. B. , Western, C. C.
Fane, V. Newport, Sir J. TELLERS.
Forbes, Sir C. Phillips, G. Grant, J. P.
Glenorchy, Visc. Robinson, Sir Geo. Hamilton, Lord A.
MINORITY.
Buchanan, John Mackenzie, Sir J. Rae, Rt. T.ln. SirW
Cockburn, Sir G. Montgomery, J. Ure, M.
Douglas, W. K. Onslow, Serjeant
Berries, J. C. Paxton, W. G. TELLERS. •
Hope, Sir W. Somerset, Lord G. Dundas,Rt.Hn.W.
Lindsay, Hon. H. Suttie, Sir J. Clerk, Sir G.
Sir John Marjoribanks, Bart. voted in the Minority, but on
the motion of Mr. Hume, his vote was rejected, on the ground
of being a Member of the Joint Stock Company, and conse-
quently being interested.

MINORITY.
Who voved with Mr. Brougham for the insertion of the follow-
ing words :—" Whereas it is expedient to secure, by an ade-
quate Salary, the independence of the Judges ; and whereas
it is highly inexpedient and injurious to that independence,
to promote Puisne Judges to the situation of Chancellor, Chief
Justices of either Bench, Chief Baron, Master of the Rolls,
or Vice Chancellor."
Althorp, Visct. Heron, Sir R. Sykes, D.
Allen, J. H. Honeywood, W. P. Scarlett, J.
Broughton, Sir R. Johnes, J. Webbe, E.
Bernal, R. Kennedy, T. F. Wilson, Sir R.
Brougham, Henry Lushington, Dr. Williams, Sir R.
Crompton, S. Lamb, I-lon. G. Warre, J. A.
Carter, John Martin, J. Western, C. C.
Denman, T. Palmer, C. F.
Fergusson, Sir R. Rice, T. S.
Guise, Sir W. Robinson, Sir G.
Hume, J. Smith, W.

TELLERS-
Abercromby,Hn.J.
Grant, J. P.

On arrival of the intelliget.ce in the City of
' Coventry, on Wednesday, of the Catholic Bill being thrown out
of the House of Lords, the bells of the different Churches com-
menced ringing, and continued with little intermission through-
out Thursday. Such is' the disposition of the inhabitants that
they are determined to return two .Members at the next General
Election, who will support the Established Church, and oppose
Catholic Emancipation ; all parties vie with each other in op-
posing the present Representatives, should they offer themselves.
Bishop WREN crlculatcd that he .walked round the earth
while a prisoner in the Tower of London. EvenSwlrT counted
the number of steps he took between London and Chelsea; and
a Reverend Divine wrote one hundred and nineteen Sermons,
on the 119th Psalm: