The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-06 00:00:00

be
fitivetneuent. lie gave the Noble Lord (Russell)
'credit for his intentions when he said that the object
of his Bill was to maintain unimpaired the prerogative-
eof the Crown, the just authority of both Houses of
Parliament, and the rights and liberties of the people
of England. He believed the Noble Lord was sincere
in his statement, but what was the plan proposed by Croto
well ? He would take it from the statement of Mr. Hume.
That Hon. Member said that Cromwell, in the Parliament
which be called in 1647, deprived of their right of elec-
tion, all the small boroughs moat exposed to corruption.
Of 100 Members who represented England, 2.70 were
chosen by the counties, and the remainder of them were
elected by London and the moreconsiderable corporations.
An estate of 2001. annual value was necessary to entitle any
one to vote; now on a comparison of the system..., This most
material difference was to be found, that Cromwell in
his changes paid respect to the Corporations, which the
pririciple of this Bill went wholly to destroy. And
that an estate of two hundred pounds sterling
which would, now-a-days, amount to between 6001. and
700/. was to be lowered to the almost no qualification of 101.
Admitting that Parliamentary Reform was necessary, and
that the demand was for an uniform instead of a varied
election—a position which he only admitted for the
sake of the argument—he could not but feel surprised
that Ministers should not have grounck 1 their measure in
?acne such way as to have erenfined the elections to
persons of property and undisputed respectAlity.
By
such a course that corrupt system which had
been so much spoken of as existing in boroughs, and parti-
cularly in those places popularly represented, would have
been removed. It had been proved by experience that it
Ministers had introduced any measure of a more restricted
nature, it would have been easy at any time to have ex-
tended its provisions ; but it had always been difficult, and
in many instances dangerous, to attempt to curtail
liberties when they had been once extended. As,
however, a Noble Friend of his had stid, this measure
was undoubtedly and avowedly a measure of experi-
ment, and if Ministers failed in it, what would be the
consequences no one could foresee. He would a.k if either
his Majesty's Ministers, or any respectable persons in the
kingdom, could suppose that the highly agitated hopes mid
feelings of the people would ere: again quietly subside
into an acquiescence into that system under which we
had been now living (should the present measure
fail), and which he conscientiously believed to be by fir the
more beneficial and discreet system. He felt canaileet
there was not an individual in that House who teas
ready to suggest a remedy should the roe:nitre fail.
And when he looked around him, and saw the incentives
there were to action—when lie referred to his own
country, and observed the prudent management of
the inhabitants there, of their domestic affairs—the
marked prudence even in their speculations, he could not
help being astonished at the political mania that now
raged throughout that country. He did not hail
these ebullitions of enthusiasm with the same eagerness as
did Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the Heuse. He
could not believe they were the harbingers of either good
government or social order ; and whatever the result
might be he was certain that they augured no good er
any hope of permanence even in the state of things
which would succeed the passing of the measuro.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) If the people were eccired on this
occasion, that excitement was attributable not to their
own conduct, but to the conduct of the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite, who, while they were out of office, held
up their imaginary grievances, but grievances which, while
they had been in office, they had not been able to ap-
ply any substantial remedy to. He could not help
adverting to the comparison of popular feeling
forty years ago made by the Noble Lord who brought
in the Bill, and the popular feeling that existed at
present. Ile was sensible that if lie brought forward
statements in detail to contradict the analogy that
bad been drawn, he should be met by corresponding
speeches respecting every town. But admitting the pro-
position of the Noble Paymaster of his Majesty's
Forces, that a Reform and an extensive Reform might be
necessary in the representation of some parts, an univer-
sal sweeping measure, like the present, could on no account
be called for. Again, as to the Union between Scotland
and England, and the subsequent Union between England
and Ireland, being made (and it certainly had been so
argued) a ground for the disfranchisement of many of
the towns of England ; it was clear that both the teeotch
and English Commissioners struggled `hard to have
as extensive a system of franchise for their respective
counties as they possibly could ; what was done
was very soon considered on all hands to be
then equitable and just, but it was as different
from the present sweeping measure as day was from
night ; and if the present arbitrative form of legislation
was to be adopted he could not see why the same sort of
policy should not enter into dealings with private property.
He was sorry that the Noble Lotd (the Secretary fur
Foreign Affairs) was not now in his place, but he
trusted the House would soon have tic benefit of
his talents and of his experience—the opinion of
that Noble Lord on the disfranchisement of the hie!'
forty- shilling freeholders was so clear sail so de.
cisive, and his reasons for opposing that measure so strong,
that he (Mr. Dundas) would advert to it. The Noble
Lord said, it had been argued in support of that measure
that it would put an end to a vast deal of
fraud and perjury that was usually committed
by that class of voters, but he, the Noble. Lord, said he
was decidedly opposed to such a sweeping act of in-
justice, and that it was most unjust to make the exist-
ence of one evil the cause for committing a greater.
Now, it was more unjust in the present instance to dis-
franchise individuals by this Bill, than the measure of dis-
franchising the forty-shilling freeholders, for in some
degree the latter persons received compensation by the
passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, while the per-
eons proposed to be disfranchised by this Reform Bill
would receive no compensation whatever. He tvould admit,
for the sake of argument, that the English Reform Bill was
founded on strict justice, and that it was proper to dis-
franchise so many boroughs; but if the English Bill was
just, what was the principle upon which the Scotch Bill
was founded ? Why was not the same principle applied
to both countries? It was said that the object was to
destroy the nomination of Members, amid to extend the
right of voting to great towns, but when lie
found the measure for Scotland conducted upon a dif-
ferent principle he was at a less to divine by whet rule the
Ministers had been governed. The principle of the Eng •
fish Bill seemed to be to disfranchise boroughs, while in
Scotland it was to disfranchise counties. Many of the
Scotch counties contained a greater population than
some of the English counties. Another material point was
this, that while in England a town of two thousand in-
habitants was to be disfranchised in schedule A, and
a population of under two thousand in schedule B,
the whole of the disfranchisement as regarded Scotland
was to operate in a far different way. When he was
told that the signs of the times called for Reform, lie
must confess that it was his opinion that the signs
of the times called on them to unite and rally
round the institutions of the country. An Honourable
Baronet (the Member for Knaresborough) last night
stated in his speech that he would touch with delicacy
on the events which had taken place on the continent.
He was right in eking so, but he (Mr. Dundas) recollected
that nine months ago, during the Duke of Wellington's
Administration, when he had the honour to second the ad-
dress to his Majesty, he stated that he apprehended
danger would arise to the constitution of this country
front what had taken place in France. He admitted that
the revolution in that country arose from the arbitary
measures of the King and his Ministers, rather than from
tl e bad fee ings the people ; but there was now
al individual of property in France who would not
exchange his promised hope of security, for the Govern-
ment of the House of Bout bon. Never was there an occasion
when there was less necessity than the present to trample
under foot those institutions which raised this country
to its present eminence, and which have conferred on the
people a greater share of happiness that has hitherto fallen
to the lot of any other nation on the face of the cent'.
IlvVahen he thus spoke in defence of the Constitution, he
raising his voice perhaps for the last time in its be-
half. He thought it might be compared in some degree to
the works of the creation, respecting which a philosopher
had said, that if parts of them appeared inconsistent with
each other, yet that the whole was perfect :
o And if each system m vatron roll,Alike essential to the atnir
The least confusion but iiionnge,whole'l
That system only, but the WholeniontiV fall."
Captain BERKELEY supporte,l the Bill
to its whole
extent. It had been said that the people of England had
made use of this great measure as a cloak and disguise for
revolution, and still worse proceedings. lle (Cap
taut Berkeley) considered this a most gross libel ot;
the people of England, for he was satisfied
as far as his own constituency went that
no such feeling was in existence. He trusted that when
the present measure was passed. into a law, all enmity
would be dropped, and he hoped the cuckoo cry of the
Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill, which gave
so much offence to parties, would be buried in the same
grave with the raven cry.—(Hear.)
Sir L MALCOLM was sorry to see in these debates so
little reference made to the Colonies. Yet in one of them
alone we exercised a Government over eighty millions of
men, to whom thirty more had recently been added. Ile
belonged to Schedule B, and was, consequently, among