The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-24 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, JULY 24, 1822.

A Mes Sage from the Lords here announced their Lordships'
assent to several Bills.
PIRACY.
Mr. CANNING presented a Petition from the Merchants
and Shipowners of Liverpool, complaining of piracy in the
South American Seas. The Petitioners stated, that in conse-
quence of the depredations committed by pirates (Spanish and
Portuguese), for some years past, the lives and properties of
individuals hid been sacrificed, the greatest inroads had been
made on the commercial security of this country, whilst the
British merchant was indebted for the imperfect protection he
received on those seas almost solely to foreign flags. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to state particular in-
stances of cruelty and aggressions committed by those pirates.
One British vessel, bound for Liverpool, was, on the 13th of
December, 1821, attacked off Cape Saint Antonio, and boarded
by pirates. The men having, been previously secured below,
the steward of the vessel was called up by the pirates, who
demanded of him to state what was the amount of money
on, board, and where deposited. The steward not hav-
ing given an answer that appeared satisfactory, one of
the pirates stabbed 'him to the heart, and he instant-
ly expired. The Captain was next called up ; the same
demand was made ; on his not producing the expected trea-
sure, the Pirates ordered some of his own men to tie his hands
behind his back, and to put a cord round his neck ; he was
then pulled up to the yard. arm. The torment he felt was so
intolerable as to induce him to call out to his own mate to put
weights to his feet in order to put a speedy end to his miserable
existence ; that, however was not done ; he was cut down, and
as he lay on the deck in a state of insensibility, his brains were
blown out by the same man that had stabbed the steward. The
rest of the crew were treated with every species of cruelty ; and
after the ship was plundered of all it contained, it was set on
tire. Several other vessels were boarded from time to time in
these seas, and the crew treated with little less severity. Such
was the state of British commerce and navigation in those seas,
that whatever protection was afforded to them, was affbrded by
foreign flags. He (Mr. Canning) had no doubt but that
every step that could be taken for the suppression of these
practices would be taken, but if the mother country had
not the power or the will to interfere, the time would very
shortly arrive to take into her own hands the right of pro-
tecting her own commerce; from the unfortunate condition
of Spain, it was perhaps true that she could not with effect
interfere to prevent those horrible depredations of which
the Petitioners complained; in that case the Government of
this country would take into its own hands the power of pro-
tecting the commerce, the lives and property of its subjects.
Sir GEO. COCKBURN said, that when those transactions
came to the knowledge of Government, it sent out instructions
to the Admiral on the station to seize on all vessels which
could not prove their nationali'y, and which had committed
depredations on our trade ' • a statement was sent in answer to
Government, that no actual proof could be made of depreda-
tions committed by any particular, vessel; Government sent
out fresh orders to the Admiral, requiring him to seize all ves-
sels against which reasonable cause of suspicion existed. With•
respect to the depredation committee) off Cape St. Antonio, the
moment the Government heard of that transaction it excited
their attention, as a case so enormous necessarily must have
done ; it appeared that the pirates lay at the 'point of St. An-
tonio in watch for vessels ; that they anxiously looked out in
order to distinguish merchantmen from ships of war ; and that
sometimes they made their.attack in schooners and sometimes
in small boats. The strictest orders had been sent out, as he
had already stated, to seize all vessels against which reasona-
ble cause of suspicion existed. But there were great diffi-
culties in carrying the orders into effect ; for so long as our
men of war were near the coast these pirates did not come
out, but as soon as they were driven off by winds or cur-
rents, the pirates came out in their schooners and boarded vessels
that happened to pass. The nature of the coast also favoured
their piratical operations. The land on the west coast of Cuba was
jungle, only intersected by small paths, so that if our ships land-
ed t eir crews, the pirates would disperse through the country,
and all that could be done would be to burn their huts, which
were, of no value. If, however, Spain would send down a
force from the Havanna, to attack their piratical settlements on
the land side, while we sent a force against them on the sea side,
we might bring them to the condign punishment which he
would do the Spanish Government the justice of supposing that
it wished to inflict. As to the giving convoy to foreign ships,
this was what the Admiralty always set their faces against, be-
Cause it was impossible for the Admiralty to be acquainted
with the arrangements between Foreign nations as to the right
of search, &c., and to give directions, in following which the
commanders of our ships could be secure against violations of
the law. To exemplify his remarks, he should mention a case
which had occurred on the coast of Africa. A Portuguese ves-
sel complained to the Commander of a British vessel of having
been plundered by a ship under Portuguese colours. The
British Officer seized the aggressor, which proved to be a
'Spanish vessel, and carried it to Sierra Leone, and afterwards
to Jamaica, and proceeded against it for piracy. The Admi-
raky Court acquitted the Spanish vessel, the owners of which
brought an action in this country, and cast the Commander in
damages to the amount of 30,8001. in consequence of which he
was obliged to absent himself from the country.
Mr. CANNING and Sir G. COCKIIIIIIN explained.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to explain why
the Government hitherto had restrained itself within the
course inentioneci by his Honourable and Gallant Friend.—
If the cases of aggression complained of were mere cases of
undisguised piracy, there would be no difficulty in dealing
with them; but the peculiarity was that the piracy was per-
petrated by vessels having commissions. At the commence-
ment
of the contest between Spain and her Colonies, these
commissions had been issued, not only by the Provinces which
carried on war against Spain on the sea coast, but by Powers
which had no ports, particularly by Artigas, whose commis-
sions were sold to cover piracies. In consequence of this, the Go- -1
vernment had issued orders to seize all vessels sailing under
commissions from Governments- in whose ports they were
not fitted out. As to the local Governments in South America,
he would do them the justice to say that they had shewn every
disposition to keep their cruisers within bounds, and, consider-
ing the difficulties of the case, had-made great efforts to do jus-
tice. But when the vessels sailing under the Commissions he
had described were seized, it was necessary to prove that they
had committed acts of hostility. These orders were at last en.
larged, and our ships were authorized to seize vessels of the
description mentioned on suspicion. He now came to the par-
ticular acts of piracy complained -of, which had taken place
near Cape St. Antonio, and which were first brought under the
notice of his Majesty's in March last. The facts
were first communicated to him in a letter from the Admiralty,
of the 23d of March, 1822 (which the Noble Lord read), and
which stated three cases ; of the brig Maritime, of Belfast ;
the ship Hermes,. of Liverpool ; and • the Alexandria, of
Greenock. In the last named shp the master and steward
were murdered. He lost no time in communicating to our
Minister at the Court of Madrid. The letter to that Minister
was dated the Ist of April, and inclosed the Admiralty 'com-
munication, and requested him to draw the serious attention
of the Spanish Government to the necessity of putting a stop to
barbarous practices, so inconsistent with the dignity of both
Crowns ; it requested him, in making this communication,
to advert to the practice of the pirates of availing them-
selves of the protection of the Spanish territory ; to state
that the British Government •expected that the steps taken
to suppress these enormities would be immediate and effec-
trial ; and to observe, that if the Spanish Government
found itself unable to extirpate this horde of piratesythe British
Government would find itself bound, in duty to its subjects,
to take into its own hands the duty of bringing these criminals
to copdign punishment—(Hear, hear !)—in which event it was
hoped his Catholic Majesty's territorial rights would not be
pleaded in bar of so manifest a public benefit—(Heer !)—Our
Minister at Madrid received front the Foreign Minister, M.
Martinez he la Rosa, on the 14th of May, a note expressing his
feeling at the horrible acts of piracy detailed, and inclosing the
order from the Minister of the Marine to the Political Chief of
the Havannah, requiring him to take measures to apprehend
these criminals with all energy and activity, and to proceed
agAirAt them with' all the rigour of the law. A communication
had been made to our Admiral on the station, to know what was
the result of these orders. So the matter stood at present. The
Americans had found, the same difficulty hi-the Island of Cuba
as we had, in proceeding without an authority from the Go-
vernment of Spain. There was, in fact, no settlement on the
part of the coast which the pirates infested ; and though no
doubt there were Spaniards and Portuguese there,- they were
probably only the crews of the piratical vessels. He had a letter
of the 11th May from the Havannah, which stated that the Ma-
cedonian American ship had been there for some days, and had
been negociating with the Captain-General of Cuba. The Ame-
rican Commander had applied to the Captain-General for per-
mission to land a farce -to destroy the pirates, but the Captain-
General had expressed some surprise at the application, and had

declared that lie had no authority to allow the landing of any
Foreign troops on the Spanish territory. What this Government,
must necessarily do was, to wait till the result of the orders of the
Spanish Government to the Havalmah were known, and then
if the pirates were not suppressed, to take the steps of which
its duty to its subjects imposed on it the necessity.—(Heart)
Mr. BRIGHT said the subject was of considerable import-
ance, as from beginnings smaller than had been described,
sprung some years ago a horde of pirates, which were the terror
of merchants in those seas. The acts of the pirates at Cape St.
Antonio were such direct acts of piracy that he saw no such
difficulty in dealing with them as had been described in the case
of the ships sailing with Amiga? commission. He could not
but admire the superior success of the American navy in deal-
ing with these pirates;—as no less than five English vessels had
been liberated by the American cruizers. This was owing, he
was confident, to no superior skill or activity in American of-
ficers, but to a better system. He thought the active exertions
of our officers in so important a matter should be encouraged ;
and that when, in attempting really to execute their duty, they
fell into mistakes, they should be indemnified from the legal
consequences.

Mr: MARRYATT said the present was a question between
the human race and its enemies. There was now not that
difficulty respecting commissions that once existed, as those
of Artigas had been called in by' the authority that issued
them. The diplomatic communications with Spain were
very well as matters of compliment ; but would produce
little effect, as this country had just tes much influence with
the local Government of Cuba as Spain had. Cuba, though
not nominally independent of the Spanish Government, had
really paid no attention to the laws of Spain since 1809—
having opened her ports to all nations in defiance of the
laws of Spain, and having legalized the admission and sale,
of slaves, equally in defiance of the dictates of the mother
country. lit thought it of great importance that 'this country
should afford to the vessels of other neutral States the same pro-
tection against the pirates that neutral ships afforded to us.—
As Chairman of the Committee at Lloyd's, he had- addressed
a letter to the Admiralty, repr4enting this necessity, and he
had received simply for answer, that it was not consistent
with the rules of the Admiralty to afford the protection of
British men of war to any but British vessels." This might
be, a very good rule in times of war, and certainly there was a
reason for it ; but this was different from a time of war between
nations. Pirates were the enemies of the human race, and we
should afford to neutrals the same protection which others act-
ing on more liberal principles had afforded to us. British vessels
had.been recovered from the Pirates by Americans, and had
been restored to their owners ; ine Piratical ships had been
carried into Charleston and the Pirates executed. The piracies
were now increasing. Yesterday there were no less than three
cases of ships plundered by Pirates on Lloyd's books,-.-the
Hebe, froth London to Havannah ; the Alpha, from Turk's
Island to Havannah ' • and a French ship, the name of which
he did not know. As an Underwriter he had no particular in-
terest in the repression of piracy. The Underwriters knew
how to protect themselves, for on the receipt of the letter from
Mr. Barrow, declaring the intention not to protect neutral
vessels, the premium of insurance to the Havannah rose from
forty shillings to four guineas. But he was sorry to see the lives
and properties of men pursi;ing a peaceable trade so endangered.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, there was not a shadow. of doubt
as to the proceeding, when the pirates were taken. in the act of
piracy, but if they were met with on the seas, as they were
protected by a national flag, and every sign of a character to be
respected, there was a difficuity in dealing with them. If any
of our vessels saw an act of aggression committed on a vessel of
any nation by a manifest pirate, the commander would with-
out hesitation interfere.

General GASCOIGNE said an application had been made
by the Underwriters at Liverpool to the Admiralty in Decem-
ber last.

Sir G. COCKBURN—That applied to the general question.
General GASCOIGNE said, the letter in answer to the me-
morial said "particularly in the neighbourhood of Cape St.
Antonio, in the island of Cuba." Ile wished to know whether
it was a.point of etiquette that the pirates should be seen in the
act of piracy ? The Noble Marquis's explanation was inrfect-
ly satisfactory as to the future, but it was from the small atten-
tion paid to the subject hitherto, that the piracies had become
so formidable. _

Sir G. COCKBURN observed, that the representations in
Decembey could not have related to transactions at Cuba in the
same month.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH would say a very fear words on a
subject so important not only to the protection of British com-
merce, but to the honour of England as the greatest maritime
nation in the world. They would not hear, without strong feel-
ings, that the British flag flying on the topmast of the meanest
vessel had been insufficient to protect it from insult and injury.
But they were bound to express themselves with consideration,
were it only to shew how deeply they felt the regard due to the
interests of British navigation and.commerce, and to the rights
of the British flag.—( Hear, hear !)—A most important point
of consideration was embraced in the motion of the Hon. Mem:
her for Ipswich, which would be speedily before the House.—
The representations to the Government of Spain respecting
those Colonies over which they had nominal controul, would
be more matter of compliment than of substantial effect, but a
recognition of the independence of the States of South America
would do away with all the difficulties respecting convoy which
had been complained of.

Mr. CANNING said, the only doubt now was, how long a
time should elapse before the Government of this country might
take into its own hands the business of suppressing these
pirates. With all deference to the law of nations, and with
every feeling of amity to the particulir Government, the para-
mount duty of protecting its own subjects required that it should
take all means, first in the ordinary ways of negociation, and
next, if those ways fhiled, by a resort to force, to prevent the
recurrence of the enormities they had heard of.

Mr. F. BUXTON called attention to the case of the officer
who had been mentioned, who having gone beyond the letter of
his instructions to do a great act of right, was debarred from
access to this country by the damages awarded against him.
The debt should be considered a national debt.—(Hear, hear,
hear !)—The Commander was entitled not only to indemnity
but to reward.—(Hear!)
The Petition was laid on the table.
Mr. CANNING moved that the Petition be printed, to give
it all possible publicity. Ile suggested also the propriety of
printing the Dispatches read by his Noble Friend (the Mar-
quess of Londonderry.)
Lord LONDONDERRY, said, there was a delicacy as to
printing those Dispatches, the substance of which he had stated.
He had no doubt of the wish ofSpain to give effect to the orders
that had been issued.

Mr. BRIGHT suggested the propriety of affording convoy
to British ships in the West Indies.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, there was a great difficulty to get
British ships to sail under convoy, as the Hon. Member was
well aware.

The Petition was ordered to be printed.
CANADA TRADE AND GOVERNMENT BILL.
Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition, signed by all the re-
spectable Merchants of London connected with the provinces
of Upper and Lower Canada, in favour of the Bill now pend-
ing in that House for modifying the trade and incorporating
the Legislatures of those provinces. He confessed he felt some
surprise and regret at hearing the present measure, the object
of which was to give an independent Constitution to the pro-
vinces of Canada, assimilated on a former evening to that
odious measure by which the British Parliament sought to de.
prive the province of Massachussets of a free Legislature. He
was the more surprised to hear this measure so characterised
by his Hon. and Learned Friend (sir .1. Mackintosh), as his
Hon. and Learned Friend had admitted that the terms of the
Union appeared to be fair and equitable. He was satisfied that,
if the Bill were passed, it would be received with gratitude and
satisfaction by the great mass of the population of Canada.
Mr. BRIGHT thought the circumstance of this Petition
having been signed by all the respectable merchants connected
with Canada, was itself a reason for postponing the Bill to the
next Session, for it was to be. presumed that the sentiments of
thwe merchants coincided with those of the people of Canada,
and if the people of Canada were likely to approve the measure,
if time were afforded them to declare their opinions, there could
be no objection to the Bill standing over. It was idle to talk of
the freedom of the Provinces of Canada, if it were in the power
of a people at the distance of many thousand leagues to take
away their Constitution without consulting them. He pro-
tested, on behalf of our absent Colonists, against the wicked-
ness of introducing so iniquitous and abominable a measure at
this late period of the Session.
Mr. MARRYATT said he had received strong representa-
tions from many persons connected with Canada, that the pre-
sent Bill was likely to produce the most injurious effects.
Under these circumstances he should certainly feel it his duty

PRICE SEVENPEI4E.

to oppose the Bill, if the Hon. Gentlethan did not consent to
withdraw it until the next Session.

. Sir F. BURDETT, without entering into the abstract quest;
tion, how far it was right to legislate for the interests of our
Colonies without previous communication with them, begged
leave to protest against the exaggerated expressions of the Hon.
Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright), which imputed to his Ma-.
jesty's Government an act of gross injury and tyranny against
the Provinces of Canada. Hating very different views of this
question fium the Hon. Member for Bristol—feeling that great
credit was due to his Majesty's Ministers for the very liberal
views they entertained on this subject, and believing, that if
the same enlightened system of Colonial policy had been pur-
sued in early times, it would have been much better for the in-
terests of this country, he felt it his duty to protest against the
harsh and violent expi,,sions of the Hon. Member for Bristol,
which had no foundation whatefer in reason or justice.
Mr. BRLGHT said, in explanation, that he had given no
opinion as tb the goodness of the measure. He objected only
to its being brought in at this late_ period of the Session with-
out the knowledge of the people of Canada. When he felt
strongly, he expressed himself strongly, and he would continue
to do so, notwithstanding what had fallen from the Hon. BEt
ronet, who was himself much in the habit of Using strong lan-
guage in that House, and whose opinions on the present occa-
sion he (Mr. B.) confessed he had heard with some surprise.
Sir F. BURDETT said, he Was extremely sorry if he had
made use of any expression which gave offence to the Hon.
Gentleman. He could assure him that he meant nothing offen-
sive to him, and that lie intended only to advert to What he
could not help considering language which was uncalled for in
the present stage of the bnsiness.
.Mr. WILMOT fully concurred with the lon. Baronet (Sir
F. Burdett)•, that the lion. Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright)
was wholly unwarranted in denouncing the conduct of his Ma-
jesty's Government as wicked, and calculated to destroy the li=
betties of the people of Canada.
Mr. BRIGHT repeated that he had given no opinion as to
the goodness or bidness of the measure. What he objected to
was the time at which the Bill was introduced. •

Mr. HIDIE thought the attempt to pass this Bill without
the knowledge of the people of Canada, justified his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Bright) in characterising the proceeding as wicked
and abominable. He did hope that the measure would not be
pressed, until some documents could be laid before the House,
to shew wiather the people of Canada approved cr disapproved
of it.

Mr. ELL/CE said, he should never have advised his Ma,
jesty's Government to interfere with the Legislature of Upper
and Lower Canada, if the necessity of the case had not called for
their union. On the question for printing the Petition,
Sir J. MACKINTIOSII rose to correct a misconception of
his Honourable Friend, the Member for Coventry Ellice)
as to what he (Sir James) had said on a former night. He had
never compared the present measure, in point of mildness
or harshness, with the penal act for abolishing the Legis-
lature of Massachussets, He had merely quoted the Massa
chuSsets Bill as the only instance in which- the Parliament
of Great Britain had attempted to interfere with the internal
constitution of any English colony. He would challenge any
Member to chew, in the whOle statute-book, any instance of in-
terference with the internal constitution of any colony. The
Massachussets bill was the only example of such an interfer-
ence, which was adopted on the very eve of a civil war, and
which was a part of a series of measures intended to prevent the
revolt of America, but which in fact provoked and precipitated
that revolt. Ile had not compared the present measure with
the Alassachussets Act in a moral point of view, for he did not
wish to excite so unfair a prejudice against it, whether it was
adopted now .or delayed till the next Session. He had never
applied any expressions of censure to the bill itself, for he ad-
mitted that the conditions of the Union appeared to be fair and
reasonable. He had, certainly deprecated most strongly the
attempt to pass a bill, depriving a free colony of their consti.,
tution without hearing their iopinions and arguments for or
against the Measure. He confessed he had heard the sentiments
of the Honourable Baronet (Sit Francis Burdett) on this sub.
ject with the utmost surprise. He (Sir J.) had never on any
occasion carried his opinion, as to popular rights, so far as the -
Honourable Baronet; he had ever been extremely sincere
in his political opinions • he approved of every part of the
Constitution, and he preferred and loved the popular part of
it; but he had never carried his opinions so high as the Ho-
nourable Baronet; he was the more astonished to hear the
Honourable Baronet defending the violation of a principle,
recognised even by the most moderate advocates of popular
rights, namely; that a free people ought to be consulted before
introducing an important change in their political constitution.
This was the first time he had ever heard it argued that an in-
corporating union of two great colonies was not a most essential
alteration of their political constitution. The annexation if
Holland to France might on such principles have admitted of
an easy defence, and it might have been said to the former
power, " We do not take away the rights of Dutchmen, but
onlywe communicate to you the rights of Frenchmen." He
objected to such an interference with the rights of a free people
on grounds wholly distinct from the merits of the constitution
which might be imposed upon them. He no more wished to see
liberty imposed on a people than despotism, for even liberty
imposed on a people did not deserve the name, anti was little
better than despotism. The people of Canada had no less than
two years' notice previous to the measure of 1791, for changing
their constitution from a monarchical to a popular form of Go-
vernment; whereas Parliament was now called upon to mak.
a total change in their form of government without any notice,
when they already enjoyed a free constitution. He protested
against-a measure, which not only violated the right of this
colony to be heard before its political constitution was altered,
but which was calculated to shake the happiness and security of
every other colony which we possessed.
Mr. W. SMITH concurred in the propriety of postponing
this measure to the next Session.

Mr, ELLICE said, that if the Bill were passed under the
present circumstances, it would go forth to the people of Ca-
nada under such misrepresentation as would destroy all the be-
ficial effects which would have otherwise resulted from it.
Under all the circumstances, therefore, he thought it would be
better to divide the Bill, and allow that part of it which related
to the union of the two provinces to stand over till the next
Session. The measures to which no objection was made,
namely, the change of tenures, the settlement of existing
ferences by arbitration, and the arrangements with regard to
the internal trade of the two Colonies, would, of course, be
compiehended in the Bill which would pass this Session. He
could not help lamenting, that any misapprehension of the in-
tentions of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh)
with regard to his opposition to this measure, should have in-
duced him (Mr. Ellice) to advise his Majesty's Government to
proceed soar.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH saicl4 that though he had certainly
expressed himself to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ellice) on this sub-
ject, in terms which corresponded with the sentiments of regard
and friendship which he had always entertained for him, yet
he had at the same time declared his determined opposition to
the principle of the Bill,
Mr. ELLICE begged to call to the recollection of his Hon.
and Learned Friend the conversation which had passed be-
tween them on this subject. He certainly should not have per-
sisted in advising hig Majesty's Government to proceed with
this measure in the present Session, if he had been prepared
for the determined resistance which had been made to it by his
Hon. and Learned Friend.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH admitted that he l'ad not wished h's
Hon. Friend to withdraw his Bill out of deference to his (Sir
J.'s opinions, but he had never given his Hon. Friend any rea-
son to believe that he (Sir J.) had relaxed in his resistance to
the principle of the measure.
Mr. DENISON said, he believed his Hon. Friend (Mr. El-
lice) would not hale persisted in the measure, if he had been
prepared for the Opposition of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man (Sir J. Mackintosh.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as his Ma-
jesty's-Government, instead of finding the support they vc-
pected, had been strenuously opposed,- not on the prindp
of the Bill, 'but on a point even more embarrassing, /lame-
ly, the period of the Session at which it was introduced,' it
was obvious that the measure could not be passed, except
under circumstances which were calculated to alienate the
feelings of the people of Canada from the proposed arrant e-
ments. He lamented that the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman (Sir James Mackintosh) had opposed the mea-
sure in a tone of earnestness, which rendered it almost impos-
sible to carry it through in the present Session. Under all
the circumstances, therefore, he felt it 'inconsistent with his
public duty to press the measure, however much its postpone-
ment was calculated to injure the real interests of the petit I: of
Canada. He protested, however, against the principle, tttat
Parliament had no right to legislate ror me best interests of de.
most distant dependencies, without previous commurattion
with those dependencies. Ile could not conceive any Find-

life more disastrous s'oeee it was -catettlated to tie up the 'hands
of the Legislatueefi•om performing its most sacred duties.
Mr. WIIeITOT observed. that it was the necessities of the
-State oiCanada that had called forth.the Bill this Session.
BURDETT expressed his approbation of the mea-
. •-esure, as one which would be of great benefit not to the colonies
• only, but to this country. He hoped that notwithstanding the
theoretical and technical objections which had been adduced,
the measure would pass into operation next year. -
Mr. BERNAL expressed himself very much surprised that
the Hpn. Baronet, who had now accused the opponents of thiti
Bill of theoretical and technical objections, had not appeared
in his place on a former evening, to defend the measure, and
refute the objections by argument, instead of endeavouring to
- do so now by, mere declamation. The fact was, that the House
had been called upon to sanction this measure without notice,
and without a single paper being laid on theeible.
Mr. BRIGHT thought that though it were conceded that
<the House had a right to alter the constitutions of the colonies,
still they were bound to examine even the abstract principles
which were involved in the alterations.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.
PRISON LAWS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Sir F. BURDETT presented a Petition from Mr. H. Hunt,
against this Bill.—lt was read, and ordered to lie on the table.
SINKING FUND.
Mr. HU:IIE postponed his resolutions on this subject until
" Thursday next.
INDEPENDENCE OF COLUMBIA.
Mr. LE NNA RD, in rispig to bring forward his motion, call-
ed the attention of the House first to the great importance of
the subject. As it was desirable that Parliament, in its consi-
deration of the question, should be aided by the knowledge of
what was passing immediately with respect to it, he should.
move " for the production of all correspondence:, between his
'Majesty's Government and the agents of Columbia. He did
this in order that the House might be informed as to what
demands of recognition might have been made by Columbia,
and as to the manner in which those demands had been
- -treated by England—whether entertained or rejected. He
could not see that the success of such a motion could in any
way interfere in the negotiations existing between Spain and
this country ; still less could he anticipate any objection to
his proposal upon the slight ground that{ in the present
state of the affair, it would be irregular for Parliament to
'interfere. In coming, however, upon the merits, to the question
of Columbian Independence, he would not (the Honourable
Member continued) enter into any details as to the course of
the South American contest. The result of the struggle, every
one knew, was this :—Spain, late the tyrant of 25,000,000 of
men in that country, was now completely expelled from the
scene of her oppressions : it was true indeed' that one fortress
,in Columbia did still remain unsubdued,- but the free Govern-
-ment had the means of reducing it at pleasure, and were only
• Waiting an inevitable capitulation in order to spare as much as
-possible the unnecessary effusion of blood. Columbia was the
first of the free states, let it be remembered, which had este,
"lens' eel a liberal and an independent Constitution. The aboli-
tion of slivery, the freedom of the press, universal toleration,
and a representative system of Government—these were the
leading features of the Constitution of Columbia ; and, were they,
not such as to entitle her to the approbation of her fellow na-
tions ? In cases similar to the present, difficulties sometimes
might have been found ; but in the present question, taking it
with all its circumstances, there could be no difficulty whatever.
This was no acknowledgment of a struggle for independence—.
no recognition of the rights of a people who might be sub-
dued and thrown again into bondage to-morrow—no ques-
tion of assisting colonies who were in rebellion against their
parent State ; the Columbians had already established their in-
depend'ence ; there was not the slightest prospect that Spain,
weakened as she was becoming by internal dissension' would
ever be able again to disturb it. The Government of Colum-
'bia was already independent de facto ; and by delaying to ac-
knowledge her title to independence, we injured her interests,
and sullied our own reputation. The right of one country to
recognize independence acquired by revolution in another stood
beyond all dispute. England herself had exercised the right
not long ago, by acknowledging the revolutionary Government
of France. In fact, we had virtually acknowledged the inde-
•pendence of Columbia. We had acknowledged it by the com-
merce which we had carried on with her ; and it would not be
'very creditable:to the character of England, to have it said that
she did justice in the case only where she was interested in
doing it. Let the House see that England was not outdone in
generosity and liberal feeling by other nations. America had
already acknowledged the independence of Columbia. The
reasons for that measure, as they were detailed in the state
paper of Mr. Adams, appeared to.him (Mr. Lennard) unan-
swerable; but he regretted -that in so honourable a course,
America should -have been allowed to, take the lead,of us.
When gentlemen recurred to our feeling towards old Spain in
this measure, let them remember what course Spain had taken
as to England in her struggle With her American colonies.
Ifad she set the example of any nice-forbearance to us ? And
- there were other circumstances which, as he (Mr. Lennard)
'thought, gave the South American colonies a peculiar claim
upon England for the recognition of their rights. This coun-
try, in point of fact, had urged on the colonies to the attainment
of the rights and liberties which they now possessed. In the
year 1797 the governors of our West India
.possessions
had been instructed to excite the South American States
to throw off the yoke of Spain ; and thoSe States had only
now adopted that advice which they were too weak to
adopt at, the precise time when it was first urged to them.
Nor would he confine himself to the mere question of
justice : let the House see how England was, in truth,
interested in the decision of the present question. Columbia
'had published a proclamation declaring that no country should
share her commerce which refused to admit her independence.
Those who had attended the late meeting at the city of London
Tavern must have seen what the feelings of the mercantile in-
terest were upon the subject. He (Mr. Lennard) thought that,
both for the sake of this country and of Columbia, Govern-
- ment was bound-to come to a speedy decision; and there-
fore should sit down by proposing to the House=that an hum-
ble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that copies
may be laid before Parliament of all correspondence between
Mr. Zea, or other agents of the Columbian Government, and
his Majesty's Ambassador at Paris, or the Secretary of Foreign
Affairs in 'England, with respect to the riglft of the Columbian
Government to be recognised as independent.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought that the Hon.
:Member had gone beyond what he had proposed in the early
part of his•speech. He had anticipated that the Honourable
Member would merely ask for information to guide him in
• shaping any subsequent motion he might have to submit on the
subject. He had thought that the Hon. Member would be
prepared to state the line of conduct which he was to follow,
-after having obtained the information which he sought. He,
however, thought it would have been more constitutional, as
well as more expedient, that the object had been to ascertain
what position Government stood upon with regard to Spain
and the countries in question. The Ilonourable Gentleman's
motion would not bring the House to a decision on the ques-
tion. Now, the fact was, that Ministers • had not . taken
any measure on the pblitical part of the subject, although it
had been matter of discussion with the Colonists, and also with
Spain. There was really no use for moving for the production
• of the principal document, as it had appeared in all the
papers in Europe. It had never been the practice to lay
before Parliament papers in discussions which belonged ex-
clusively to the responsible Ministers of the Crown, anti which
had not been conducted to a fit state. The disclosure would
be inconvenient, and could not'lead to any practical result of
the smallest value ; and, therefore, it was one of the most un-
necessary pieces of information that Parliament could charge
itself with. It would not promote either the good taste or the
policy of the country, and it might affect the policy of the
--world. He would allow that the Treaties which existed between
Spain end this country were not to be at all considered as
permanent bars in all changes that may happen among the
...States of the world but; as little would he allow that the con-
- duct of any particular Government, upon any particular case,
ought to be.a rule for the Government of this country. He
hoped that this country, was not to be expected to run a race
with other countries for the recognition of any country,
. upon the mere ground that it wits to he for our. interest. Ile
was sure, that in the present aspect of the discussions on this
very great and important queAtion of policy, he could not
make the House understand the views of Ministers. The House
would, however, sec that ,Government ought not to regulate
the policy of this,country by what had been the no,. licy of
Spain during the American war. It would be much better
.to make her, by generous conduct on our part, feel that she
had been in the wrong, than to take that wrong as the basis and
'guide of our own policy. The fact was, that these colonies were
. already recognised as IndependentStatese and really' there was-
nothing Le the conduct or policy of the Executive Government
of this country, of which they complained. For his own part,
he had never hesitated on holding intercourse With their agents,
when asked to do so, although he certainly had not considered
tieent as official. Latterly their vessels had been recognised,
nod they had- been allowed to import their produce directly into
this country. We had shewn that we wished to cultivate a
friendly intercourse with th'em. There was no restrictive law
of which they could complain. They. we're a Government de
facto, and as such we, de (itch), carried on intercourse with
`them. The 'Honourable Gentleman did not seem to know all
the facts of the case. It was impossible that he could know
what was passing between this country and Spain, and yet the
knowledge of that was necessary to the understanding of the
,•-question. He felt that he could not go into the quettion with.
out embarrassing the subject. The question had, therefore,
:better be left in the hands .of the Executive Government; it
.would be better not to call for information, unless some praeti-
eal measure were to follow.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH thought that it was not uncommon

in the practice of Parliament to move for papers with a view
rather to introduce a discussion on a particular subject, than
to obtain information. Such motions were frequently made
without any intention to tie up the hands of the Executive,
which he'admitted should not be interfered with as to time and
circumstances. Ile was ready to Maintain that the recognition
of this Government could be no infringement on the rights of
1 Old Spain. Spain was the country which had more frequently
than any other raised their questions among the other nations
of the world ; ~for her provinces and colonies had more fre-
intently thrown off her yoke. In 1642 this country signed a
Tzeaty of Alliance with the King of Portugal, one year
after he had been declared
.such in opposition to the Crown
of Spain. He quoted also the recognition of the United
Provinces of the Netherlands, at the very time that the
Envoy of Spain was actually calling upon the Government
of this country to treat them as rebels against his master,
the King of Spain. Thp result, however, was, that the King
of Spain very soon gave up, his demands in this respect,
and that very Envoy was sent to the Netherlands as his Bri-
tannic Majesty's Ambassador. Ile could not conceive a
stronger precedent to justify the opinion that Spain would not
fed aggrieved by the recognition of the independence of her
late Colonies on the part of England. But it might be
supposed that Spain had acted in the way he had described,
when it was unquestionably out of her power to recover
the United Provinces. The fact was the very reverse of this,
for at the period to which he had referred great military
operations were in progress, and•with a fair prospect of suc-
cess. But under such circumstances, Spain had not dis-
puted the right of England to be on friendly' terms with those
Provinces ; and she had remained at peace with England,
though England continued the friend of the United Pro-
vinces. Nothing could be stronger than , the recognition,
on the part of Spain, of the right of another independent
State to take that part which was best calculated to promote the
interests of its own subjects. 'What was the nature of the re-
cognition for which he contended ? Was it intended to esta-
blish and strengthen the Governments of Colombia, Buenos
Ayres, Chili, or Mexico ? Not in the leastdegree. It was not
a guarantee to preserve the present order of things ; it was not
to bind us toward them, or to connect us with themby alliance;
it was merely called for because it would be for'the advantage
of British subjects. He admitted that a country which com-
mitted itself ,to the policy of revolted colonies, as France had
done with those of North America, .and as Spain had done a
year after Franci had taken that course, placed itself in a
state of warfare with the Mother Country: But here the case
was very different. We, by recognizing the independent Go-
vernment, should , neither express approbation nor disap-
probation. We had no right to express either, but by the
act of recognition, we should merely do that which was 'neces-
sary to relieve our own subjects from the disadvantageous
situation in - which they stood; as compared with those of
another great commercial nation : and not doing this,:he con.
sidered the Government was guilty of a violation of its duty
towards the English merchant, by declining to take that course
which might be taken without giving any just cause of offence
to Spain. The recognitie^ of a Sovereign, not in possession,
• as France,had recognised me •son of James the Second, was an
insult, if not an attack on the independence of the country con-
cerned, as it was an intrusion. It was pronouncing an opinion
where the party had no right to pronounce one, presuming to
act as judge, where it had no right to claim jurisdiction, and
by consequence it offered a wanton 'and gratuitous insult. Here
the case was totally different. We were not called upon to de-
cide on the questionable claim of a Prince otit of possession.
It had not been urged as matter of complaint against France,
on the restoration of the 1-euarts, that she had sent Ambassa=
dors to the Protector Cromwell. The right of recognizing an
existing Government had been considered to belong to every
State, beeause it was held to be the duty of every State
to promote the interest of its subjects. He proceeded to
contend that it was essential to British interests that a Diplo-
matic intercourse should be established between this eountry
and the Government of South America. This would enable
us to obtain information that would put a stop to those depre-
dations which had been directed against our commerce, and lead
to the extirpation of the pirates, who had long been in- the habit
of preying on the property of the subjects of neutral nations.
Ought we to continue to sustain such injuries because Spain
refused to give up a claim which all the World knew she
wanted the means to enforce ? Perhaps it was not generally
known how long Spain might•be expected to persist in such
a claim. It was only for the moderate period of sixty-seven
' years that she had persisted in maintaining her claims on
the united Provinces, after_ they had become independent.—
(A laugh.)—Were we now to submit to the inconveniences
under which our commerce laboured for sixty=seven years ?
He further suggested that the feelings with which• the Govern-
ments of South America must view the sullen manner in which
her independence had been half recognized—the passing of the
Foreign Enlistment Act, under the Pretence of maintaining a
strict neutrality, but which was, in fact, a measure of hostility
towards them—and the way in which our commerce with South
America had been indirectly dealt with, which resembled the
conduct of a person who was ashamed to be seen with another,
but for his own convenience was willing-to have a little closet
conversation with him L---the feelings likely to be excited by these
circumstances-were calculated to lead- those Governments, in-
ffuenced perhaps by our commercial rivals, to adopt regula-
tions that would:be injurious to our trade. Ought we to submit
to such evils on account of the exploded claims of Spain? Was
this country in such a state that we could afford thus to play
with the capital of its merchants ? If by such a course we only
diminished our exports to South America, the House would
surely consider this a miserable exchange, if we gave up these
out of respect for the claims of Spain. Such a line of con-
duct, he hoped, he •had shewn was neither justified by
_com-
mon sense, nor by the line of conduct which any other Govern-
ment had ever pursued under sim;!ar circumstances. He con-
sidered that we had a right to recognise a Government actually
in possession, that our subjects might not be placed in a more
disadvantageous situation than those of other subjects, and
that he would maintain we might do without violating any
duty which we owed to Spain. China might as well be ex-
pected to demand that we should not do so, as Spain, for the
Emperor of China had for some years past: exercised as much
authority in the South American States as the Spanish King.
To abstain from recognising the South American Governments
under such circumstances was, as Mr. Burke had said, (using
an old English saying,) " to prefer the frill and ruffles to the
shirt"—the form to the substance. He again described the
disadvantages under which our merchants laboured for want of
a diplomatic agent to back their representations when they
were aggrieved. In conclusion, he declared it to be his opinion
that the Hon. Member for Ipswich deserved the thanks of the
House for bringing this subject forward. If the Gentlemen
interested, honourably interested as British merchants in the
decision 'come to by the Government, would now by their
votes evince their feeling in its favour, he thought the effect
would be to strengthen Ministers in the views they took of this
question, if they were sound ones—to, confirm them if they
were wavering, and if they were wrong, to recall them from
1 error, and to a line of policy more conducive to the interests of
their country. _ _ _

Sir R. WILSON expressed a hope that Spain would not
much longer delay to recognize the independence of South
America,_ a.s he was convinced that the longer she did se, the
longer she would continue to act against her own interest. He
wished to ask the Noble Marquis whether the question of the
recognition of South American_ Independence was at present
viewed purely as a British question, or whether it was fettered
in any way by the Treaties made, or the Negotiations carried on
at Aix-la-Chapelle or elsewhere ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had no objection to
answer the question. He had no hesitation in saying that he
considered the question to be wholly and solely a British ques-
tion. It was viewed without reference to the interests of any
foreign power, and was only to be disposed of according to
the law of nations, the treaties which had been approved by
Parliament, and with a to expediency, and that genero-
sity and prudence which it became this country to display.
Dr.. LUSHINGTON wished to ask a question. Two years
ago he had brought forward a motion' on the subject of an at-
tempt understood to have been made by the French Court to
establish a Bourbon Prince at. Buenos Ayres. The Noble
Marquis had then stated hirnself to be about making a repre-
sentation to the French Court on the subject, not denying the
authenticity of this report. He (Dr. Lushington) had never
lost sight of the subject, and he now thought the time had ar-
rived when the House and ' the Country were entitled to know
whether the French Government had given such an explanation
as the Noble Marquis considered satisfactory, and such as it
became the honour of this country to receive.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, communications
had been made to the French Government on the, subject of
the documents which had been produced from Buenos Ayres,
in the answers to which it was not admitted by the French Go-
•vernment, that the agent at Buenos Ayres was justified in the
representations which he had made.
Mr. MARRYATT begged to state What was perhaps not
generally known, that British ships trading to South America,
at present, paid just double the tonnage duties which were paid
by the subjects of other countries who had Consuls established
there. Many of our merchantmen in those parts had 'been
plundered in a most extraordinary manner by what was called
the Chili fleet, under the command of one of our own country-
men. Several of the parties aggrieved had complained to the
Government in -Swath America, but having nobody to sup-
port their representations, they, stood but a poor chance of
getting redress. When an American vessel was carried into
Lilt; the only American frigate on that coast immediately
went and openly released the captured ship, while our men of
war suffered British ships to remain in the hands of those who
had thought proper to detain them. He mentioned this to
shew that our commerce was at present carried on under great
disadvantages. He, however, thought it a little ungracious