The Sun.
London, England, 1809-06-09 00:00:00

have busineis erts,4g,thto7 theso for gellS
Ike ocenpatioOs those pertoris who dirrifothing,l
being cast upon them. Asiar as regarded those cif-`;
fives held Eluting pleasure, he could not agree with
the Hon. Gentleman ; but with' respell to,the
cures, the,propogitionsw
ould meet his concurrence,.,
Lord FOLIZCTONE considered the sineNire offices as
creating arrinterem wholly dittinft.froin that of thurj
people at large if upon no Other grounds, upon (hat¢
of paying, by particular attachtnont, the debt of gra-
titude. • ••• : •

Lord H. PETTY could not r oniiderthe reduaion
of" offices in thlt House' a; an efficient step towards
purifying ; although the general influence,
of the _Crown had .considerably' increased, the in-
fluence of the Crown, hy:•persOntt bolding plaices
batik seats in that House,•had 38 considerab4i.divni-.
nished. • In 173 R, 234 Members of the House of
Commons were placemen, :to the amount of
212,0001: annual value. Ho readily admiltd that
there were some individuals, 'such as The Welch
Judges. and the Mister; in.Chantery, who ought to
be excluded frOm the House' of Commons ; hut he
allowed; at the same time, 'that it was indispensable
.that. `the Ministers of the Crown, and all thoSe who
were 'aolively engaged in the transaelion of public
business, should not he so excinded. '

Mr. PONSONBY felt no ditfienity in agrqing to his
Hon,Ftiend's motion; satisfied as he was dist there

were some individuals hClding. offices, whinn it waS
'expedient :to exclude r from the Houge of Com Mons,
althcalgh he was not prepared to say to what 'Werke
extent this principle ought to be carried. As to the
;idea of excluding all placemen, however, with the
exception perhaps a dozen, it appeared to him
to originate in themost complete ignoranceol. the
Constitution of the Country, and Of the praffice of
our Government. He did not w 4.11 to see, all those
excluded who held sinecure ofces, the taittre of
which in many cases rendered the holders whiAly
independent of the Crown. The same principle
applied to those who kid pensions for lite.. He held
a pension. (or life, but he did nor Consider. kirtnselt •
Obliged to the Crown for it. He 'held it by AO of
Parliament. Any ihdiviiluai who had heen'a Chan-
cello' was entitled to such a pension,
.and with rea-
son, for he could not continue Chavicellor if he dis-
agreed with the Administration of the day ; and if he
'quitted office it Would be Impossible for him to 're,
turn to his profession. Was it therefore to be said, ;
that such an individual had no common interest With
the cominuirhy ? The Indlrea influence of tti Crown
had unquestionably increased in an unparalleled
manner, by the inerease.of the twiny, of the navy, of
the patronage of the Revenue, Bc. It was right,
therefore, tir'ery whether something Could not b
done at once satisfaaoty to the flow and le the
public, and useful to the Government,itself.
' tLord..For,tcsaaii explained., +

I

Mr. Secretary PANNING could riot agree to the:
premises of the pon. Gentleman opposite, %Odell.
ought to leave been either self.evideut or setisfiaori- •
ly demenstrared before he was called upon to concur
in the motion. He could not acknowledge in the first
Mace, that the influence of the Crown had sn much .
increased as was alleged ;s nor, were that admitted,
coulld be aCkriowledge that the proposition of the,
He vv..is the fittest mode, of applying, a
remedy to the evil. It was indispensable to the.
liitrunntioui :10t.einimt bet!Veen .those branches:of
thae Coc::stitution, the collision of ,which Might be
tatl4 to the country, that the priCipal Officer% of Go-.
vt,,tinuvtit should sit in the House of Commons ; and
it wis indispensithle
.to future presperity.,. ilea. in
dividuals holding t.ubordinate situations., bet with the
*Tee/ ot htibsequent elevation, should be:allowed.
the same privilege. He had thought, that it there
wa any ihing likely to raise a ciy treat all those who'
cotisidered the Hothe of Corninoos, net only as an
taich.oit con,roi over the povier• of the Crown, but
as actually comprising, within itself, the greater part.
oaf .the. meatts by which the Government of the.
tountry could be carried. cm, it I.VOuld have bcen,a
propi,sitionby which, if succasful, the King would.
be corieelled to choose his Ministers not horn the:
two 7.1t.:1-,;es of ParbaMent, and, iorei especially not
frani the House of Oornmons. There, was no prie.
ciple soclear in his mind as that the present praelice,
while it was wholesome for the Übe; ty of the:
country, was most advantageouit to the c0:t41,96i,0f
the Government. With resped to.. the exclusion
from the litiuse of 'individuals holding sineemes
places, and etijOying pensions, that eet Lindy could:
not be meiataieed on the ground that thoe, indivi-
duals were under the influence of the Crown ; be-
cause the fa6t wasp that of such indii i,luitls,
.at least
as many were, on any question of importance, or-
rayed against Ministers as for them. Of this tire
ftilit I lon. Gentleman who had, just spoken, anti
in his eye, who gaVe to the administration of •
the day the advantage of their vigilance:arid. correc-
tion, were striking instances. He animadverted •
however on the expression °Utile Itight Hen. Gen-
deinan, that:for the ecuolement which he enioyeil,
he wasindebted not to the Crown, but to Parlia-
ment ; and more especially 'on. the mode, in whicli
That expressioti had been received by :certain
the House. It there existed in thetuithl of
ariv matt a wish to:t.ilte the prerogative limn she
Crown of granting ye ivards for public. servioes,,!and
to substitute a system of Parliamentary pension,, and
triAing the House of Comae:xis a judge of pub-
lic services, ho thought it. would be. infinitely prefer-
'able to forego the print le of remuneratin
gether, and' that hen etCoxard the public 4erVice•
shotild be its own reward, :He said this, .because he
ceold conceive ratty thin so subversive of. the
principles of the Constitution, or which .vfpuicilead
to a wore lavish extel.ei, ore than the introduc:tion of
such a sIC:111. "td the.! influence of the
Crown, that Was a Stittj(*A which, if considered at
ought'to betonsideied by itself.' He conlti not
'avoid; howeVer, remarking on the inconiisteney of
the flier). Gentleman, wim himself haul high
crinumnfl in the Local Milan, clideavot..ring to it n 7
press ulna the Iloyse th 6 idea that among Other
,itiorces of that- inikence' the establishment tAt' the
was a considerable one. As it was •
permitted to. tbt philosOplier of old: to say, that he
could not argue with the roaster 50 k4i(.44,..,0. he
would take the liberty, 'to 'say, that on lies seibject
he could not' argee.,with a Colonel of Local Militia ; ,
but certainly it %Om sir.it:ce that the Hop.
should proi.use to rcniedy It* evil witch he 4s,ertod
the thtablishment of the Local Militia occasioned, by

.t, • 113
• -59

MART,) 11A [(KIS, ot No. 4. Mattlett.tavt, Bow.f.treet ; and
cs, No. 11r, Sttand; vrber, Advertiseinents, 'Orders

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1,14-ying
NA of that I.luiliQk4vfa i.o/L4 f air Atli of tifer.dfigiftuidn. and Inc
. #7 .111-
The 4veloltati.yli,oopcised impiying-an ec- to reward services.
nielte„e4leienee A„.„,,,1, the 'el- -13esiKaaa: thought. no-1 'hay' sla oil raid
Istence ot which he wee bereofseeketans-, prepared to w 1 ere ors/tn./1y waa'perfortned.
aCknowledge,. ht inersevrite against it. • i Mr. CANING Iso.-opposid - the amendment OF
nenteeee.was willing to take hi.4pkill share Mr., Benitez, end coitiendeli, that it was inconsistent.
of the ,ignorauce of the Constitution, imputed to .eveo -With, the, Hon. Gentleman's own views, end'
those who thought that the 1-10u5.,:, ot Commons •cleßartirrg•from the recommendation of the Colitinit7
ongbi.to be theareal,Representatives.Of the, people, tee.' Witileon-one liatid Lie recoinutended ectitiquit
and that from the Statute Look the nature, that in. abeeateog. all -sineeores;ehe floe nroildir;l-.; 4
Constitution might be best "uuderstood. Bight ctimpensetion and Another made of rest ud for etfi.
Gentleman near hint (W. Ponseerby); who. dent serviced e Ttie. Right Hon. Secnitary then
bag)! taied !fiat persOnsat'tgin enjoy -lerge: peesiens maintained at ionse length the propriety of the
independent of the Crown,. pod, Jtatliietiteeced his,. Crowu:s. baying the power of.remeneraiiog those
owts, case in support of hjeopinient;sheden 'hit very who performed services'to the Stare, and petit-0,
instance afforded the proof of a grieveuce.' It was that if the power existed at all; no limitation could
too much, that the-country should be aaddled).as it be imposed-, as sinecure offices, Irmo their nioure,
'then was, with pensioneeo four; Irish Chancellors, limited their , own. extent: All the great sinectirrei
for he could not peecetyeevlly a' Gbaneellor should the excleptiou of one, had found their were?
be removed by a change of Administration. AVith that destination to wince they,ought to have genii
resped to the proposition before the Eleuse, be according to the puresttheory,as the reward of great
,should support it as it wont to palliate the existing , public services. He considered sineeuret tt's illa
evil. Iu doing this, however,lio must declate, that cheapest and best mode of rewarding such tervirese
there could be no adequate substitute for a free and Mr. H. THORN TON 'gc:ierdlly agreed' with Mr.
fair elettion of Members OrParlianient„ rotor- Bankes, and stated tile amount of sinecures as much
ing to the publictheeight ofchoosing their qwn Re; . less than was imagined. by many---not more than
presentatives, all the evils complained of woeld be 40,0001. per ann. for. England.
remedied, and they would endure with patience the 1 Lord H. PETTY opposed the amendment, on the
burdens which it, might yet be necessary to impose 'ground that any other mode' of -reseattnna
upon them. 'He 'ditferedeompletely from the Right service would be much more expensive than
Hon. Gentlemen who contended that there .ought sinecurese.
to be no collision' bet Ween 'the various blanches of Mr. Hesictssote also considered the aaoptieo el
the State.' If they were to be blended into one mass the amendment as adding greatly to the public buy"
sit concurreo corruption, the Constitution was a dens, and consequently could not give his aoLL't
farce; but•he had always understood that the excel- to it.
lence of that Constitution lay in keeping the parts of Mr. IiONSONEY followed on the same side, and or
which it was composed distinct front one, another.— posed the ainendtnent. If the Crawneess to be
There were-two vent points on whitilt the happiness T privet: of the eower of rewarding services by bestoW.'
of the people depended—liherteeind poverty. Let , ing, sinecure places, for. the .purpose of iotroduting a
those be secured, and no one would objet! to Win- i system of pensioning in its stead, he uelieved those
taro the. Royal Pfeloptiee in the full enjoyment of who now recommended that change set strenuously.
that power' which the.welfare of the Suite rendered would be the first to lament it.
it necessary that it should be able to exera'eie. 1, Mr. W. SMITH prOteSied against the admission
of
Lord Purreit ESTER. Cillifetfded, that tlie very pal- the principle, that ell .Men, oh retiring horn Ake,
helium of tie!, Con'Oettieen was, 'the privilege. 'which ". were entitled to be rewarded, with sinecures, atid ,
the Statesmen of the country ees,essed, of holding general reprobated elle grant of • those places !rota
SCatl,in that House. It was a well known faa, that favour, moreithan as a remuneration for public set--
there was ni;''Mibister, ;however attNoed to office, vitae. s. • -
who Wernot. more tenacious of his 'Pafliamentary ,After a few words from Mr.• Dundas, Mr.
than ialtis Othcial-Charaeter ; and it was not to be .Ttioroton, and. Mr. Nitilbetforce, the atnenilioeht
believed that An individual would lend himself "to was -negatived yeithout.a thviaion.
'the degradation of al) assemble'from winch he was La OiSULSTON wished to move as an
'desirous of deriving reputation. As, however, he mestt, that the secapd ReselLsion thould be hinid'`!,
could not pretandfte say that there were not °dices, altogether. This Was, to as irregular
Beth`
-the holtleis of which inteht possibly 'be excluicd Mr. Aiusleiston :and the.Chancedur of the Becebx.
jfrorn-thet House with advatioige to the public; be quer. 'the Resolutinaeof Chaocellor of tirti
Should vote for; the Resolution. ' chequer
.was thee. etabstituted in the place of' I.!
Mr. Potaseefav, Advetting to, the expression used . Martin's, and agreed to. It appeared, to be Mere?'
by an Hon. 133`ronei, that he could not see why, kverbal altetatio:l of the original Resolution.
a Lord Cbanceilor might not retain his eifieenota Atter some cooversation -on the-third
withstanding g a change ot Ministry, declared that: the the House resumed, and the Chairman repaired
Hon. Baronet ii;ight as well eave said that he. could progress, and obtained leave to4it. again oil
not see why a Secretary of State, or a First Lord of The other Orders Of: the Day were that d.'511°.1„70
the Treasury,' might not' retain his Office, not- of; and the Host..atljourned. at ail •
‘Vithstanding a change of Ministry. The thing was. o'clock. . .
impossible.
Colonel ELLtsfet4 compared the condua of the
HOn.. liaroneroppolite to that of the dog in the •
fable, who sacrificed the substance fer-'the shadow.
He wished the lion, Baronet %costa look rotted and
see the cifeet of rspeciliativo (trinities, and ebonite
inilronsietili,ilreeaseiiriouosthaenrdcho;pttyri,e;;;d
tv‘a
h-ist
isittiil
lleexin)eirgitillt b
ieue endangered.should'e
beied, by which her present
--Mr. HAWKINS BEOWN 'agreed with, the Han.
Ilariniet,.that we ought to value liberty and property
as highly as our ancestors ; hut he eenteeived that
we should not sliew our estimation of thoie blessings
by degradiogLtho charaCter of the HOuse of COM-
'nom,' by excluding from that 'House those who
wereehe tiiost fitlliiiiett'4o'do service to the country.
He should thereforta•vete againat the resolution.
Mr. POLE CAREW • declared ',that ttl'e' Hon.
tlernan'hiertiorlaidlitiffii;ient groaba fOr 111 s propo-.
sition. A; As:tietten'tord aMplea\iiike'ditglit also .to
:have been given of Stich airimpoittret stithjeCt.
Mr, ',\Velieeititeo Made' iiriWkited reply to
the various Arguments' thee betan apiest
him ; but the el-an-en-re press of ''matter will not 'al
e-
low. us to ntet into' a detail of "di. observations.
'He expressed Itimielf perfeelly diposeti.to adopt the
,alteration easHggeasteal by' his Right Hon. Friend' ( ;te
Tierney): ' •
`['he original. metion t heti withdrawn for, the
'purpose - of • lidoptiegAite •worda
.ittnt einieeded by
Mr. l'ierney, ThAt-Parliamant -Auld early in the
next Session take into consideratibh fitsVti for it, was
expedient to linfit the-riumber'ot 116111,peis_ in the
House holding places tipori'thi34 the Hei.Oe
divided, airdethe numbers were,
Foe the: kesulation •."
Against it -
1\1.4j lity against it
PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
our re-adruis;ion to the 'Gallery,., we fouqd
the House resolved into a Corninittee, for the fur-
theehonsideration of. Mr.' Martin's llesolutinns 'on
the Third Reliort of the Committee on Public Lee
'penditere. • ,
. Mr: NIARTIN, after citing a number of Extractsfrom this Report, relating to sinecure 'offices in the
Courts of Law, and 'other sinecure :Offices, avliiels
'had not'yet comt' uhder the 'revision of Parliaineet,
;and making observations thereon, concluded, by
moving his second Resolution,
.which iu his opittion,
did riot differ maleriolly,and if that of the iglu liun.
Gentleman seould be preferred, he would Out think
'it necessary ta. divide' the Committed upon it. The
'Resolution was as follows :—" :That in addition to
the hentetici.ii theastires already adopted for the re-
gulatien and ahoiiiion.,ef Sinecure Otheea, it was ex..
.„.
pe'diem to extend the Santee principle to such other
Offices as may admit of the same.':'
Mr. IiANICES WWlett
.to see reform more attend.
ed to in rather than in general principle, and
proposed an
.einendment, that all unnecessary offices
should be abolished, ate' Ihe salary of tholes that
were executed by. deputy yeduced to the amount of
allo..vance paid to such deputy. •
The Ctieueesneon. of the Feefteotate objeCW
to this amendment, as going to coolish all.t.aitiecures
uponlo ry
%lowhateverii'
no-responsibility could be: ' attached if
'the income
.was givem•le theft ,deputies.—lt,was
striking at the root of the ackti'iMdgitd principles

queseOtawOr
lusld 111131:5G.—uiVidetuhlit::drt,Aliiyn:11::1000013,11.,airld:
strevti• Foundling-Hospital, betore Grrost4i4 -146137.:
iotv, E+ci. one of the Coroners for MR/640v01t;
the body of Iqr. Jamie Looker, about s veiny ysy
of age, ,who %%as burin touleath on Tuesd,ty ot4htla
Cirenville-street. It was supposed -that a satifta
candle had faller( on her dress, and o‘±..asiOniid:ll°
todancholy event.-7-Verdid, dfccidenta4 Deaih.:
At seven ,o'clock yesterday eveutirg a.Qoroner;sl`,"
quest. was had ai the Craw,rl and Snkor Log; ~
street, before Mr. ).17.zr Sall ma, on the, tAdy,
tyf
inilraildee.c,,hci d4,titr)caitit,Tani Unknown;oiti ~col%_eisi %11, utob:rfnoitrlgi.i. .11'1
?,10*
deceased, appeared to ..be betweii ,pad ,sniont4
obi.'" Mr. Veitigrew, a surgeon,
nwi,o,esouinr.a.the,
body exernally, stated, that ther,.• noontwari
aPpearanee "vi4lenet, and wa, opwitut, that ,I 1
the body 'were. to be opened, further CI
be- nicertained as to the canse ut
Died ty the Visitation-of God, d,r
.
'Die body of the' poor' lad thy,.w 33 ,:irowlll
13,iginon, in the' tbrin'of 2d in,t. wi,Yl-I,`l
of-the five suffertri than has zs vet t.o.:u
•
thee. His tAetnainsivefe Washed on si: )re
ttng-dean,
the:64ll. The .rtbser:ption • opeouct fur
a vinnc„.' four‘tnites e.t:a
.the %%i-lows and-dal& en or the men who have 01
tqi v
-drowned, we are"
.glad IV bas b:eri 69
-attend to, that is suipliased a thgusa:.,!,pullo"'
•be'aollitted b...!fiire the end of the mon(