The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-20 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

/HOUSE OF LORDS FRIDAY, Jury 19.
The Scots' Jury Bill was read a third tithe,
and passed. •
Returns relative to Irish tithes were presented from the office
of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.
The Irish Insolvent Debtors' Bill, the, Leather Duties' Bill,
and the Duchy of Cornwall Bill, were read a second time.
REVENUE OF IRELAND.

The Earl. of LIVERPOOL presented a Report from the
Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Revenue of Ire- '
land. The Report did great honour to the Commissioners who
had drawn it up, and he could not lay it on the table without
calling the serious -attention of the House, and more especially
the attention of those' of their Lordships who were connected
with Ireland, to this most important investigation of the finan-
cial system of that country. Their Lordships would find that,
the Commissioners had recommended very important measures,
and he was persuaded that if the investigation should be pro-
perly folloWed up, the result could not but be most beneficial
not only to that part of the country to which the inquiry had_
been more particularly directed, but to the empire at large.—
It would be for their Lordships afterwards to consider what
regulations should be adopted under the sanction of Parlia-
ment. But if the regulations proposed were foundcd on justice .
and sound policy, no local interests, no consideration of favour
oz partiality, ought to operate to prevent their being carried
into • effect. In saying this, he was confident that if their Lord-
ships were convinced that the recommendation of the Commis-
sioners had truth and justice on its side, they would give it their
liberal support without favour, fear, or partiality.
The Earl of LIMERICK • experienced much pleasure in
hearing what had fallen from the Noble-Earl, and concurred
with him in the conviction, that no ideas of interest or favour
ought to be allowe'tl to prevent the carrying into effect a mea-
sure calculated to promote the public welfare.
The Marquis of LANSDO WN could not refrain from stat-
ing, that he had heard with great satisfaction the explanation
made by. the Noble Earl respecting the Report he had just
presented, and also the expression of the Noble Earl's senti-
ments on the important subject, in which he doubted not their
' Lordships and the country would concur. He trusted that the
investigation would be effectually followed up. /It was not for
him to anticipate what might be the result of the -recommen-
dation in the Report on the table ; but the investigation had
fully justified the opinion given by the eminent person who first
suggested the inquiry.
The Earl of DARNLEY also stated his approbation of the
sentiment expressed by the. Noble Earl, but tool.. the present
opportunity of adverting to what had taken place on a subject
to which he had before called their Lordships' attention—
namely, the stationery .furnished to public offices in Ireland.
He understood that the House of Commons had voted a specific
sum to make good the loss in the stationery department. If, how-
ever, lie had the papers which had been moved for, he should
be able to prove that the public had already paid far too much.
He wished to know what was the cause of the delay in theil
production ?
The 'Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that a proposition had
been made to supply stationery' for a specific sum, and that an
arrangement was going on respecting it. The delay in making
out the returns had arisen from the great number of years which
the motion embraced, and which rendered the making of ex-
tracts a business of considerable time.
%IRISH GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN reminded their Lordships,
that in consequence of what had passed the other day on the
Bill relative to Grand Jury Presentments, it was considered
that, there was not sufficient information before the House to
justify their adopting the measure with satisfaction to them-
selves. It was, however, thought, that it would he advisa-
ble to record the opinion of the House on the subject, and
he therefore now moved a resolution, recognizing the principle
of the Bill. _ _

,
After a few words from Lords REDESDALE and DONOUGII-
iVIORE, the resolution was agreed to.
IRISH INSURRECTION ACT.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose, on the Order of, the Day,
to move the second reading of this Bill. The Noble Earl re-
ferred to the state of the country, as the ground on which he
called on their Lordships to pass this Bill. There was no dis-
position in the Government of Ireland to exercise unduly the
power which it was unfortunately necessary_ to give, nor_ to re-
tain it a moment longer than the safety of the country required.
There was no reason to apprehend that the powers given by the
act would be misused; but the dispatches from the Lord Lieu-
tenant showed;. that though tranquillity and securitylo pro-
perty
.was ensured by the act, there was reason to apprehend the
most injurious effects would take place were it to be suspended.
Their Lordships would not do, their duty to the loyal inhabi-
tants of Ireland, if they did not give to the government of that
country such powers as were capable of giving security to liberty
and property, and without which government could be of no
use. Under these circumstances, he anticipated their Lord-
ships' assent to the Bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN did not mean to oppose,
the Bill, but did not think he would be justified in giving a
silent vote. Though he must admit the measure to be necessary
for the safety of, the Country, he considered himself bonnet°
enter his protest against continuing to act on the principle of
this Bill, which was the offspring of a system of palliation of
evils unaccompanied with any` evidence, at least any Parlia-
mentary, evidence, of an intention to adopt means for the re-
moval of those evils. The dispatches to which the Noble Earl
had referred contained a condemnation of the measure. It was
stated that the Insurrection Act had a temporary effect, but that
the moment its operation was withdrawn from a district, the
same evil recurred. Thus it was evidently no remedy. It
might preserve tranquillity for a while; but their Lordships
were bound to lose no opportunity for taking measures to bring
about a return to a constitutional Government in Ireland.
What was necessary to be done was, to-teach the people not to
depend for their security on the conduct of any Lord Lieute-
nant or the Magistrates; but on their own. rights and the laws
of the country. It was to the full protection of the law, and to
a conscious- conviction of that protection in tile minds of the
peoPle, that their Lordships were to look for tranquillity. The
Noble Marquis concluded by objecting to the clause which
prevents actions being brought against Magistrates for any
thing done in the execution of this Act, and intimated his
intention of proposing an ainentlinent on it in the Committee.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH, though he disapproved of the
principle of the Bill, felt himself bound to agree, to it, as it af-
forded a protection which the people of Ireland were by habit
brought to expect. In giving his consent to this bill, he held
the Government to be more distinctly bound to introduce mea-
sures of conciliation.

The Earl of LIMERICK supported the bill. If it did not
pass, he was convinced there would be no security for the lives
and property of the 'loyal part of the inhabitants of Ireland.,
With respect to the clause on the subject of actions, he was
afraid that if any change were made in it, the effect might be
to paralyze the efforts of the Magistrates.
Lord REDESDALE also supported the Bill, on the ground
of immediate necessity. The cause of the evil of ,which all
complained, he observed, was, that the law had never been pro-'
peel), administered in Ireland. The consequence was, that the
character of the people of Ireland was affected by that mal-ad-
ministration. In considering the character of the people of
Ireland, he was convinced that they might in time be brought
to pay as complete submission to the laws, as the people on this
side of the Channel. When the natives of Ireland came to this
country, they readily submitted to the laws, because they
found that the same laws equally protected themselves and
others. A

The Earl of DARNLEY gave his consent to the Bill under
the same qualification as other Noble Lords. He expressed a
general confidence in the Noble Marquis at the head of the Go-
vernment of Ireland, but thought that some explanation was
due respecting his conduct, in allowing a scene lately to take
place in Dublin, which was calculated to excite strong party
feeling. He strongly condemned proceedings which made the
name of the founder of British liberty a means of maintaining
party animosities. With regard to Ireland, no real good could
be expected from palliatives. It was necessary to go to the
root of the evil ; and if no abler hand took up the urgent sub-
ject of the situation of Ireland, he would himself bring it for-
ward early in the next Session of Parliament.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose to say a few words in con-
sequence of the allusion which had been made to-a recent oc-
currence in Dublin. He begged to be understood as most dis-
tinctly stating, that what took place on the occasion referred to
was not only contrary to- the opinion, but to the wish, of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government. He had
even taken legal opinion- anti advice on the subject, but the
question was found to be one of great delicacy. If any person
who wished to prevent' the proceedings had come forward and

sworn that something was, contemplated which was likely to
lead to a breach of the public peace; then the Government
might have interposes. In this opinion he believed his Noble
Friend would concur. There had been great provocation which
led to the transaction. That the Marquis did not interfere was
not, however, from.any disinclination to prevent the proceed-
ing, but •in consequence of the high legal opinion he had
received. •

The Earl of DARNLEY did not for a moment suppose that
the transaction to which he had alluded had taken place with
the concurrence of the Noble 3tarquis, and was glad that what
he had said had given occasion to the explanation which had
been made. • • _ _ _ . .

- The LORD CIPLISTCELLOR would not be doing justice
to the Noble ,Marquis, if he did not state, that after the most
careful examination which he could give to the subject, he was
convinced the Noble Marquis had done every thing to prevent
the proceedings alluded to, which he was entitled to do by law.
The Earl of DONOUGHMOIUI rose, to declare his reluc-
tant assent to-this measure, as one of imperative necessity alone.
He reposed the utmost confidence in the Noble Marquis at the
head of the Irish-Government, and when that distinguished
Statesman called for such a measure, it could only he upon the
imperious duty which compelled him to resort to that means
of preserving the frame of, society in Ireland. That Ireland -
had been 'Ong and cruelly misgoverned was a notorious fact ;
but the qUestion here was, what coult,be 'lone in the midst
of a. lawlesskorid p9wergia4fgliedenzty again 4_all order such
a state-Prihings must .be put down,' and he (the Earl of Da •
noughmore), who kne4i the state of Ireland, was compelled to
admit that there wagpho 'other way of meeting the existing
evil than by resorting to such-a measure as this. Some
were of opinion that the Bill ought to be accompanied by
Other measures of a conciliatory nature : he for one could not
see the necessary connexion between this and such measures,
and he-supported the present Bill rather as an isolated one,
than 'as one connected with other views of Irish policy, Which,
however indispensable, were not now before the House.—
In a season of peace; when topics of calm deliberation were ca-
pable of being praetically considered, he had not the smallest
doubt but that the Marquis Wellesley would sustain hiS Cha-
rader by deeply considering- the situation of his country ;
,but
at present he saw no other course for him than to resort to strong
measures to support the dominion of the lav;r. It was a lament-
able fact, that Ireland had-not received thehenefits which were
anticipated for. her by himself and
.others at the time of the
Union. That measure relieved Ireland. from a , Parliament
which was a terrible engine of corruption—an engine operating
to produce such extensive mischief, that all good men saw no.
safety for their country but by the sacrifice of a bodywhiai was
its bane. Unhappily, however, the prOmised boon of salutary
goVernment had been withheld. He had, however, the utmost
hopes from the -present S Lord-Lieutenant,, from whose des-
patches he read several extracts in justification of the present
bill ; and was convinced, that when the moment came for calm-
ly lookinpt the state of Ireland, that Noble Marquis would
be found ib sustain his high character. At present, terrible as
was the evil, he saw no reason to refuse his support to this mea-
sure; his confidenee being always in the high quarter from which
the recommendations came; and justified -only by the necessity
of the case.
The Earl of ROSSLYN rose to address theiri,ordships, be-.
cause he was unwilling to be included in the sweeping declara-
tion of a Noble Earl who had preceded him—that all who were
present were ieady to give a tacit approbation to this measure.
lie feared that they must look to it, not as a temporary, but as
a permanent measure, inasmuch as he could see no prospect of
any satisfattory issue to the present discontents of Ireland. He
objected to the Bill, because it gave an excessive power over
the people to the Magistracy, in whom the people in :general
placed but, little confidence. He believed that the population of
Ireland looked more frequently for protection to the :Military
Officers stationed among them, than they did to the Magistracy
of their country, though'the latter were bound by their oaths to
afford it to them at every risk and upon all occasions. ,

The Earl of RODEN believed that no other measure was so
well calculated as the present to meet the evil under which Ire-
land now laboured, or to afford scearity and protection to all
classes of his Majesty's subjects irAhat country: He attribut-
ed the evils of Ireland, not to the want of Catholic Einancipa:-
tion, but to the absenteeship of its great landed proprietors.. In
that opinion he was fully borne out by the fact; -that wherever
the landlord resided on his estate, there peace and prosperity al-
ways existed. If the Noble Marquis opposite were as well 'ac-
quainted as he (Earl of Roden) was with the condition of Ire-
land, he was sure that the Noble Marquis would never propose
to make such alterations of the Bill in- the Committee as he had
that evening given notice of.
Lord HOLLAND had no hesitation -in saying, that if he
could confide to any man such frightful and unconstitutional
powers as were granted by this Bill, he would confide them to
the Noble _Marquis at present at the head of the Irish govern-
ment; for he would admit in the most broad and explicit man-
ner, that as far as lie could judge, the Noble Marquis had al-
ways exercised those powers with calm deliberation and eau=
tious judgment. The powers, however, that were granted by
the Insurrection Act, he would never again grant to any indi-
yidual, so long as he had a seat in a British House of Parlia-
ment. He had once in his life supported such a Bill ;,but
without any affectation of conscience, he would ;say that the
vote which he had given in support Of it, lay like a lump of
lead upon his mind, and was the only act, in his
_political life,
of which upon a retrospect he since.-ely repented. One cf his
objections to the Bill was the enormous extent of its powers.—
The Noble and Learned Lord opposite said that these powers
were absolutely necessary.
,Allowing that they were so, still
he would ask why was not the Bill conferring them accompa-
nied by some measure of a conciliatory nature? " Oh," said
another Noble Lord, " how can you expect the Noble Marquis
to be prepared with a measure of that nature in six months,
when I, who have been 20 years examining into the causes of
the evils in Ireland, have not been able to discover a remedy
.for them; and further, when the British government in the
long lapse of 500 years has been equally unsuccessful ?" Such
a reply, however, was but a very sorry argurrient for a continu-
ance of the present system. He would have expected that if
the evils complained of had already existed 500 years, and
those laws which they had passed' to remove had only served to
aggravate them, they would have determined as a last resource
to adopt a new line of conduct, and to try Conciliation where
coercion had absolutely failed. The
_Noble Lord, however,
attributed much of the evil of Ireland to the want of respect
paid to the laws by the population of that country : he would,
however, ask, were the laws- themselves respectable ? So long
as they were of, a nature like that upon their table, he would
make bold to say that they would never excite respect in the
breasts of either the people or the magistracy. When the late
tasteless and cowardly insults to the great mass of Irish feeling
were mentioned in the House, a Noble Lord had said that the
Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish government had no
power to put them down. If that were .the case, he would asks
why it was so, and why Parliament had not given to him that
authority, when it had given to him other authority much
more odious, much more dangerous, and much more un—
constitutional ? The present Bill -was an instance of that
kind of authority ; and, as an English Gentleman, he
would say, that if such a Bill Were
.passed in England,
he would imhiediately throw up his commission as, a „Magis-
trate, because he was convinced that no man could execute it
without becoming a Worse man in character and principle, and
what was, perhaps, no less important, a worse'subject to a free
government. The Noble Baron then proceeded to ridicule the
idea of attributing all the evils of Ireland to the absenteeship
of its great landed proprietors ; and afterwards proceeded to
state that he should'oppose this bill, firSt, because it was liable
to abuse, not so nmai- from the Government, as from the in-
ternal Magistracy of Ireland. Indeed, divid;d as Ireland u
into two great factions, it was not less' unjust than impolitic
-to give one of them such enormous powers as this bill did
over the other. It placed arbitrary power in the hands of those
who were likely to abuse it, -sometimes from' fear, and at
• other-times from a wish to' take revenge. Indeed, he would ra-
ther confer such authority as it gave upon the military officers
of the Crown, than upon those whom it employed in Ireland in
a civil capacity. It had been sad by some individual whom
he did not know, in a place of which he knew as little, that this
was very extraordinary doctrine in him who had an hydro-
phobia of military power. Hydrophpilia of military powerl The
expression was most extraordinary, and if used by an Irish-
man, fully proved what a Noble. Lord had stated that evening,
that Ireland was in great want of good schoolmasters. Indeed,
if the person who had recently'used it, had used it at the time
he was of tender age, in all probability his " fundamental fea-
ture,"- to borrow another word from the same yocabulary;
would _ have suffered a little for so daring a metaphor,—
(Laughter.)—He would, however,'state a reason why it was
hot so very extraordinary in him to hold this doctrine. It was
this—that if it were necessary to grant excessive powers,
it was better to give them to those who were the most ac-
customed to the use of them, inasmuch as he had obser,7ed

that the regular practitioner always left a less wound
behind him than the ignorant dabbler in the art of phy-
sic. The Noble Baron then proceeded to state other
arguments against this Bill. He said that it was not
adapted to the end which it professed to hive in Lview. It
was not so' well calculated to put down thepresent evils of
Ireland, as many other measures, which, though open to ob-
jection; were none of them open to smith objection as could be
urged against this measure. It was a disappointment to Par-
liament and to the country at large, inasmuch as it was not ac-
companied by any measure of redress, as had been promised at
the commencement of the Session. Over and above all, it was
calculated to aggravate all the evils under which Ireland at.
present laboured. Having all these disadvantages, and being
Also contrary to the spirit of the British Constitution, he
could not for a illoment consent to. the passing of such a
measure.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the question, and
the Bill was read a second time without adivision, It was then
ordered to be committed on Monday, for which day their Lord,.
ships are summoned.—adjourned.