The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

taii,,l7l Church, and if such questions continued to be enter-
be rend
. and supported in that House, such a resistance would
1, raised up on the part of the people of England as would.
be Wholly
, irresistible. He was happy to say that what he had-
heard that
.night w.as auspicious., and he did not say that the
of the
gra ation which the question had made in the favour
People of England was irrecoverable. He did not say
chat the attempt ought not to be made, and he should. now
etd; upon it with far better hope. It was as strong!), his
°Pinion as it was that of any man who heard him, that until the
t4itholics were let into a
participation of the Constitution—
until the question was carried to the full extent proposed by
,ar• Graham—he would not say much ' not be done
g°°d might. But they
'est Ireland, but the work would not be fini.shet
nwere asked, how could the question be carried by a divided
'"erotnent ? This was not a problem of to-day—it was a
Prohlein of the last twenty-five years. Not one Cabinet had
te§ted during that time which was not divided upon the ques-
'm ; and he defied the lion. Baronet to point out any one year
°,l' Month of that period at which a Cabinet existed on either
3,"1, the House to whom all he had said would not apply as
`sash as to the present Government. The Right Hon. Gentle-
ts'lari then recounted the divisions in the Cabinets of which Lord
Jdrnouth, Mr. Pitt, and Lord Grenville and Mr. Fox, were
Zrheads, and said lie thought it rather hard that all tlietautnhes
sth e kept for the year 1825, when amongst the friends of
In er aide a division had absolutely been created and erected
Then Cabinet Cabinet of Mr. Fox, when it did not naturally occur.
Allen came the Administration of the Duke of Portland, when
the same obstacle existed. He venerated that .obstacle, and
,hild i
'prb-Y say that he had been taught to respect and act
ilr'("lit heY Mr. Pitt. His conducthad ever.been the same widi
'Ord to whether in Or out of office. He resisted the Ca-
tholic claims
ill 181 t in compliance with it in 1808 when in office ; and
—' when out of office, he resisted them upon the same
'?unds• In the year 1812, the removal of the Regency re-
anic
Itions having taken place, he considered that event to . form
lieyelet?. - tantamount to a new reign, and the obstacle was re-
?landfound Grattan then brought forward his motion, and he
that the event which he considered had set him free
lP°'' the question, had not, in the minds of the Government,
ieits them free also. Upon that, he made his declaration and took
Li bile; and then for the first time he voted for the Catholics.
_Pon the death of /11r. Percival, an offer was made to him to
e2ule into office. He replied, by asking whether the Govern-
tTe.l,l.t continued in the same determination respecting the cia-
s.nt Claims ; he was told they, did, and lie refused office.
-tie would ask, then, what right the Hon. Baronet had to
doubt his integrityCheers.)--and to affect to try his conduct
7 the vulgar test of in and out ? He had previously gone
witi()ugh all the ungracious labour of defending the Spanish war,
~,, en few ventured to hope hut himself, and here was an op-
'PltunitY of coming into office again when all the glorious re-
ita he had foreseen were beginning to be realized, and when
lie might have reaped the fruits of the harvest he had sown.—
Zf he refused; and he would ask any man possessing the
ulgs of an English Gentleman, whether this conduct display-
, a want of integrity or note-41Iear, hear !)—The Right Hon.
li'leerulernan then alluded to the agency in forming the Govern-
ment of the Marquis Wellesley and Lord Liverpool, in
now ch the Catholic Question was placed upon the footing it
toheld in the present Cabinet. He disdained the charge that
w" wanting in integrity. There was no want of integrity
te might be want of wisdom, if there would—the course he
no pled might be open to dispute, to refutation ; but it had
tiePitiul, sordid motive, of getting into or maintaining office.
lutilgext came to the first motion which lie submitied to the
tleseoe', uhon the subject of the Catholic Claims. Lord qts..
by a gd.ably supported him in that motion, and it was carried
after they'PaJorit of 120. The same motion was made a few days
Zal,._ In House of Peers by Lord Wellesley, and it was lost
e majority of one—the numbers being 126 to 125. Those
gitTatuthe halcyon days of the Catholic Question, and he should
tiffs
wY see them return. To the Government under which
acuity s achieved he afterwards acceded. But he had no dif-
were ju tracing the particular hostility with which his acts
we viewed by some Honourable Gentleman opposite. He
tot,perfeerly aware that he had rendered himself obnoxious
ste`Llems , by opposing to the best of his ability, and with some
tie(3a. cetera favourite measures which they proposed.—
with hi; secretary Canning) declared, that rather than dispute
met upon the. Catholic Claims he would have left
honour
life gave up his feelings on that occasion to a sense
, and decorum ; but that was not the only sacrifice
11,e.made. One great object of his ambition was beyond every
tullig in his desires. His wish was to have
re-
presenting the honour of the University of Oxford. He had every chance of
success in pursuit of that object, when the discussion on
the Catholic Question took place. He was then foiled in his
chance, it was the greatest disappointment he had ever met.
All the gifts. of fortune in his estimation were as nothing,
compared with the possession of that honour. His heart was
rfeoe
.e. On it. she representation of the University of Ox-
rdr4itn,tu h.etter hands, and his hope was, that his Right
~.:,, ens! might long honour it. He could tell the House
t",`T. greatsincenty, that he lost it by his attachment to the Ca-
11T Question. Returning however to the main subject be-
e''''
.yhe House, he (Mr. Secretary Carmine.) expressed his belief
mtrett ed froM the best information, that there was in this coun-
4,ftegreat mass of the people inert to the Catholic Question,
pece!i must be met by a gradual spirit of conciliahon. The
soLf_ttetyrould not be forced to an agreement on that important
appears , Nothing could retard its progress Tore than the
I,4Blnce of a Government league to carry it.. If it were
effort e. to find a Cabinet united on that question, and .an
proper
veere made to carry it through Parliament, at an im-
le, Per time, their object would not he attained—a flame would
tai r.insed in the country. if the Catholic Question was to be
ortued at all, it must be gained by cool discussion in, that
tan, ,• That was the safest and best way. He (Mr. Seere-
seill'atming) thought the Cabinet could not be forced upon
the ,ft 9nestion ; and he took it to be no mean proof that
that'pbinet was as good as it could he, when it was known
ea ~i9r twenty-five years no Cabinet 'had agreed upon the
i Peetiens
`Mkt Yof bringing forward that question. It had been
he tits eed, however, to him that he was blameable because
nti_eu possessed the means'of trying the experiment against
said
dre possessed
001eni...“ I.would,rather quit office to-morrow,"
thel; the
Right Honourable Secretrary, " and lose the Ca-
m,. 'e tiuestion, than, on coming into -the Government, turn
ii,;,Ud and change the footing on which I stand." He was at
itrY to quit office and move the Catholic Question, or move
tilli;tiotffihece. He would do either, but would not pleege himself
subject to any one. It was a great question of policy
e4uling on his view of the state of the country and the spirit
fo e times. He should consider whether the time was right
thrAthe introduction of a such a question. Other hearings of
not subject would come sunder his consideration and he would
fb,..ll‘)e taunted out of his course. The. Honourable Member
t ' ledhurst in terms certainly very friendly, had desired him
0° take the course of bringing forward the Catholic Claims as
Ti 4as possible even at therisk of breaking up the Cabinet.
a lat
on. Member ber had also been pleased to ask it he had no
inuthition to acquire popularity. He thought there were feel-
Ile which ought to govern the desire 'to acquire popularity.
should say, in the beautiful language of Dryden:—
" I can behold her while a wife ;
But while she's passing on the wind,
• The I puff the prostitute away."
,t
ti, Right Hon. Secretary said he would not seek popularity
1)0i.
peula,itpyence of his opinion and consistency. The road tod
e
1u was the road he was then taking. He should avoid
t xtreines of danger, and steer
• In medio tutissimus ibis.
thiethwas desirous, at the proper season, of promoting the cause
timc e Roman Catholics—not for their sake only, • but for -the
thole; of the whole country. He thought concession to the Ca-
se,cs, when the proper opportunity offered, would bring a
bet-
therler of things. He was cured of folly in. bririguaeforward
Of thCatholic °W ins at an improper tine," by the resulti
RI e efforts made in 180, when tlie Bill was thrown out, and
a, NossP by the Whigi: The ROit-I-IML'Secretary 'concluded
(,echo eloquent speech' by (Assaying', that whilst the Roman
trey °lie Association' remained undissolved, the Bill to be in-
teced to the Howie would produce the most beneficial con-
cheering, He ne (Mr. Secretary Canning) satdownamidst loud
illy ''
,
the es* BROUGHAM rose.' Some moments elapsed before
at 44011ge was silent. Ile assured the House that 'in . rising
... tlie close of a very. long protracted debate, he felt most
attention
to compresa his observatiOns.: . Ile Wished to call the
Itittention of the House to the Main point of argument, and
eirefore he should grapple with the question strippingitof
t4,t; tbe extraneous matter, and those personal topes which
eueueuhl not be introduced to Irish affairs. 'He al a defender
ts'eunq advocate of the Catholic Association. He should con-
d for the right of the Roman Catholics to meet, deliberate,
rein,-
Spe, ustnite, and demand those
,privileges which belonged tho
.Constitution. His hope was, that his opinion would reac Ireland, 'Whilst they deliberated and remonstrated with due
regard for the laws, they acted legally. Without blinking the
T,iestion, he should admit the Catholic Association had faults.
the saithat not for the purpose of gaining popularity; which
`)..e Wald eady to give to the wind, like the Right Honourable
kileatleman. He might ask what were the faults and charges
against the Catholic Association. lt was said, that so far from
ntl,g the safety valve in the heated apparatus. working in Ire-
aL,i.o,, they were the cause of danger to the Irish Government. 11 about a Committee of Inquiry, or a green bag full of papers,
his 'Majesty's Government; contrary to the usual practice,
were preparing a law to abridge the liberty of the people of
Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then examined.
the charges made against the Catholic Association, and ad-
'•eerted to the prosecutions in which the parties were acquitted.
Ile (Mr. Brougham) drew an inference from information he
lied received from the leading Counsel in those prosecutions,
that justice had not been done. In the accounts they had re.
ceiveti of both these transactions, there had been an ex-