The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-07 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 7, 1831.

in Nottingham in favour of the proposed plan of Reform.
Lord MORPETH presented a petition from Wakefield,
agreed to at a most numerous and respectable meeting, to
the same effect as the cne from Yorkshire.
Mr. CROKER wished to know the number of signa-
tures to that petition.
Lord MORPETH observed, 2,700.
Mr. CROKER said he thought there must be very few
of the rural inhabitants left to sign when the numbers were
considered that had signed the York petition, the 22,000
who had signed the Leeds one, the 2,700 frOto Wakefield
and other places.
Lord ALTHORP observed that the Hon. Member had
forgotten that Northallerton could furnish 1,700 sig.

natures.
Mr. CROKER felt surprised that the new borough
of Northallerten, than which there never was a greater
job, the extent of which was to be seventeen miles, could
not furnish more than 1,700 signatures.--(Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP observed that it was no job on the
part of those who then sat on that side of the House.
Mr. J. C. HOI3EIOUSE moved for certain returns re-
lative to the number of inhabitants householders in St.
James's, Westminster.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the Western Po-
litical Union, praying the House to adopt measures
for the diffusion of knowledge, by the removal of the many
taxes that prevented its extension. He (Mr. Hume) con-
curred most cordially with the prayer of the petition,
wishing to see all taxes removed from paper and
printing, as a great means of accomplishing the object,
which the petition had in view. He thought those who
had kept the country in the state of ignorance in which it
was would do well to consider what they had to answer
for, and he trusted his Majesty's Ministers would not de-
lay the removal of those taxes he had referred to.
Mr. R. TREVOR was satisfied that the many evils
that existed in the country arose from the poorer classes of
society having had an opportunity of perusing the disre-
putable and diabolical papers and periodicals that were in
circulation. He was not hostile to the poorer classes being
properly educated, but he was satisfied their condition would
never be bettered by removing the tax upon newspapers
and other periodical papers of that description, had a suf-
ficient circulation throughout the country to enable them
to pay a touch larger tax than that which they did, and
he knew of no better source of revenue than such a tax.
Colonel TORRENS considered the salvation of the
conntry essentially bound up in the diffusion of sound po-
litical knowledge.—(Applause.) Imperfect knowledge
might lead the people to disturbance—might lead
them to conceive that the rights of property
were irreconcileable with the rights of the working classes;
but convinced, as he was, that the rights of property
perfectly secured the rights of the working classes;
convinced of the soundness; of the principle of distri-
buting knowledge among them, he should not think
he performed his duty, if he did not raise his voice in
favour of the people being instructed, as by this means they
would be taught the first principles of right, of Go-
vernment, of profits, of labour, and of profits of
stock. With these impressions, he should support every
proposition which might be brought forward in Parliament
for the purpose of rendering knowledge cheap.—(Ap-
plause.) lam convinced, said the Gallant Colonel, that
our only saftey in the present excitement, is perfect
knowledge, knowledge is power. The people half in-
structed have half power ; half power may be exercised
in somewhat an injudicious way; but if you give the
people perfect knowledge, thereby conferring on them
perfect power, they will exercise that power soundly,
and for the best interests of the country at large.
In ignorance you will have danger—in knowledge your
will have safety ; therefore, it was of the highest import-
ance that the utmost diffusion of knowledge should take
place.—The petition was then ordered to be drawn up.
Mr. HUME in moving that the petition might be
printed, desired to make a few observation in reply to what
had fallen from the Hon. Member, in opposition to the
taking off the taxes off publications. That Hon. Member
had attributed to the Press every thing that was base and
mischievous. He (Mr. Hume) wished to know whether
that Hon. Gentleman desired such a state should continue
to exist. The Press was in the complete possission of
persons whose whole aim was to circulate that which was
evil and mischievous and it was utterly impossible for
any person, who had property or a character to maintain,
to attempt to repel or answer the base charises which per-
sons ventured to send forth. His (Mr. Hume's) desire
was, that some measure might be adopted which would
enable good men to send forth a proper antidote against
the poison of these dangerous publications which were
so much complained of. This could only be done by
the removal of all taxes from Newspapers and publics.
tions of every description. A complete and indiscrimi-
nate publication ought to be permitted ; and he (Mr. H.)
wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer
if be had any intention to bring forward an act for the
purpose of repealing duties upon publications?
Mr. TREVOR. explained.
Lord ALTHORP said, I must protest against questions
being put to me at this period of the year, as to what I may
be inclined to do with respect to the removal of taxation,
because, to give satisfactory answers to such questions
would be to pledge myself at a period at which I should be
extremely sorry to give any pledge whatever.
Sir P. BURDETT thought that if these mischievous
publications were to be allowed to go on, it would be but
lair to allow the opportunity to others of answering them
on an equal footing—that is without being under the re-
striction of that heavy taxation which the respectable part
of the Press was under at present.
Mr. HUME moved for a return of the persons who
had been convicted of selling uustamped publications, the
Magistrates by whom they had been made, and the respec-
tive periods of imprisonments. He undei stood there were
at this moment no less than twenty-nine persons under
sentence of imprisonment for selling unstampcd publica-
tions.
Colonel TORRENS had great pleasure in seconding
the motion for this return. It was only by the free pro-
nunciation of opinions that truth could be arrived at; and
if the truth were to be permitted to be promulgated with-
out taxation there could be no doubt that truth would
prevail, without any step being necessary to be taken for
the suppression of the mischievous part of the press.
ADDRESS TO HIS MAJESTY.
Lord CAVENDISH brought up the report on the ad-
dress.
On the motion that it be read a second time,
Mr. HOME said be wished to make a few observations
before the report was agreed to, not only on what the ad-
dress to the speech contained, but on se at [tie speech itself
was silent. He felt it necessary thus to explain, from the
opinions he entertained, and which he hid before ex-
pressed. In the first part of the speech he entirely con-
curred, and he believed Ministers were entitled to the gra.
titude of the country for having so soon re-assembled Par-
liament, in order satisfactorily to settle the Reform ques-
tion. Much too of the present dissatisfacion which pre-
vailed in many places would, no donbt, be removed by that
satisfactory adjustment. There was one part, however,
of the speech with which he did not agree ; he alluded to
the interference of this country with regard to
Belgium. Neither party la °old thank them; both
hail expressed dissatisfaction, and the ostensible ob-
ject of preventing a general war would be attained
no longer than the parties had time to prepare for a re-
commencement of hostilities. As well might France and
the other powers interfere and dictate the separation of
Ireland fronts England, as this country dictate the
separation of Belgium from Holland. The British Par-
liament had thus committed themselves in that inter-
ference, and had acted on the principles of the Holy
Alliance, most injurious to !all States.—(Hear, hear.)
The increase in our establishments' last veer and at pre-
sent, was evidently necessitated by the posture of affairs
in relation to Belgium. But there was no allusion
in his Majeaty's speech to any contemplated reduction in
this department. Why should the people, so distressed,
he called upon, by meddling with other nations, to involve
thenselves its renewed difficulties, and to force measures
on a Government which they dad not want. The speech
admitted that distress actually existed : no doubt distress
had arisen from want of employmeot. but was there in the
speech or in the address one word., suggesting a remedy for
it ? Could a man casting his eyes over the county, hesi-
tate to declare diet excessive taxation was the cause of
the evil. Ile was most sincerely of opinion that the pre-
sent interference of this country with Belgium and
Holland was inconsiderate in principle and involved
no small expenditure of the character of the nation. He
did expect that some attempt should have been made to
relieve the people by a reduction of the establishments, and

he would state that so long as Government persevered in
straining by large establishments every shilling that could
be wrung from the people, no expectation could be enter-
tained that efficient relief should be administered. He
had been tblamed last year for quietly submitting to so
large an increase of public establishments, but under the
peculiar circumstances in which the present Govern-
ment had been placed by the Administration, increase of
was to have been expected. He did, however, expect that
after a year they would have been prepared to make some ex-
tensive reductions. He could not see why such establish-
ments should now be kept up, larger than for many
years, and at so heavy an expense. The time no doubt
would come, when it ould be necessary to enlarge
on these subjects, but he could not allow this opportunity
to pass without these observations. We objected to the
interference alluded to, and to the fact, that while distress
was admitted, no specific remedy had been propounded.
Lord PALMERSTON could not let the observations
ni ide by his Hon. Friend pass without some remark. The
Hon. Gentleman had expressed disapprobation of the course
11 pursued by Government in interfering between Belgium
and Holland, representing that Government had aban-
dondoned all their former principles and professions,
and adopting those of the Holy Alliance, had im-
posed on Belgium a Government which was adverse
to its wishes. He should be prepared when the pro-
per season presented itself, to contend that the interference
which this country had exercised between Holland and
Belgium, rested on principles acted on by Governments of
England, in the best seasons, and best times, upon principles
which, if Government was not prepared to act, they should
consent to abandon the interests of England itself. He
should like the Hon. Member to point out in what
respect they had forced on Belgium a Government con-
trary to their wishes. The Belgians had chosen their own
Government, their own Sovereign, and the Government of
England had in no respect interfered to dictate to them,
either as to the form of their Gornment, or the choice of
their Sovereign. Meanwhile Holland and Belgium were
mutuallp anxious to be separated. It was impossible for
these countries to agree on the terms of separation,
if they were left entirely to decide them by mutual
communicated, and the unavoidable consequence ()fallowing
them to pursue their own claims, would have involved all
Europe in war. It was therefore with due regard
to the interests of peace, not less than to the independence
of nations, that this country bad interfered. That inter-
ference had saved Europe from a general war, a war
of principle which might, therefore, in a short time, have
involved England ; the result of our timely interference
had been to place the kingdom of Holland in a better
situation than she before occupied in any period of her his-
tory ; and to secure to Belgium that form of Government
and that soverign whom the Belgians wished to have.
Mr. G. DAWSON designated his Majesty's speech as
the most unmeaning one he had ever heard. The chief
topics of it were those relatingto Reform, and a probable
change in tithes. As to Reform he would say nothing at
present, but as regarded a change in the law of tithes; he
thought thas from the manner in which they had been
mentioned, a great alarm was created in the minds
of all who were possessed of tithe proporty. Ex-
cepting those two subjects, every thing else had been

left in confusion and doubt. The state of the country
was such that it was impossible but every person could see
it was becoming more dangerous and conflagrations were
taking place in every part of the country, and no steps had
been taken to put an end to them. The country
was almost in a state of Civil War. Look at
Bristol, at Nottingham, and at Derby, at which
places property to an immense amount, and hundreds of
lives had been destroyed, and yet Ministers seemed
to have not the least notion beyond stating those facts
and leaving their remedy entirely out of the ques-
tion. Trade was paralysed, industry at a stand, and
yet nothing was stated in the speech to lead to suppose
that Ministers intended to bring forward any remedy.
But there was one subject which was in every body's
mouth, he meant with respect to those societies which, in the
speech were called combinations. The words of the speech
on this subject were as vague and unsatisfactory as
possible. The proclamation that had been issued,
instead of suppressing those Unions by threatening
to enforce the rigour of the law, was merely of that
milk and wvter nature, that it seemed but as a kind of
advice to persons to abstain from uniting; in fact
it was vangue and undefined. The sentence in the
speech relating to these unions did not state whether it
was the intention of Government to propose any law to
put them down, or whether there was any law in
existence which they intended to put into execution.
The Attorney-General seemed to have been slmnber-
ing at his post ever since he was appointed
to it, and if he had been advised respect-
ing a speech he had certainly put together a vast
number of words as undefined as possible. Should those
Unions be persevered in it would be satisfactory to
know whether Miniters intended to put them down, for
I there seemed to be no law to affect that object.

LEFT SPEAKING.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, DEC. 6.
ADDRESS TO HIS MAJESTY.
Concluded from our Secoud Edition of yesterday.

The Earl of HARROWBY—He felt anxious not to I
disturb the unanimity which it was desirable should pre-
vail upon the address to be presented to his Majesty in
answer to his speech, and for that reason he would scarcely
have thought it necessary to say any thing, had it not been
for the speech of the Noble Lord who had just sat down.
He did net, however, mean to offer any answer to any of
the topics on which the Noble Lord had thought proper
to descant. His only purpose in rising was to deprecate
the entering upon any debate in the spirit which the Noble
Lord's speech had displayed. The address, except in one
particular which he would presently mention, met with
his entire approbation throughout. Both the speech and
the address were prepared with much discretion and pro-
priety, and they contained all that he would wish to in-
sert, and contained nothing that he would wish to omit,
except in the instance to which he alluded. He agreed
was proper that their Lordships should turn their
th at it
attention to the subject of Reform, but that they should
pledge themselves to any particular Bill, or measure of
Reform to be proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, was
totally out of the question. As to the Bill, they knew
nothing ; and all they could say was, that when they
did know, they would consider it. But till they did
know it they ought not to say one word about it. When
it should he brought forward, however, he most confi-
dently hoped that it would be a measure which they
could not only entertain in detail, but one which they
could finally adopt. As to the Bill of last Session, he
and many others of their Lordships felt themselves com-
pelled to oppose it ; and if his Majesty's Ministers would
bring forward a measure of Reform in the sincere spirit
of conciliation, he was confident that their Lordships
would approach it in the same spirit, and bend all the
powers of their minds to consider it, and to discuss it,
with sincere desire to adopt it, if possible; and he hoped
that, by abandoning some things, and adding others, a
measure would at last be framed which their Lordships
might pass, and finally set the question at rest. He
would not enter at present into the discussion of the topics
on which the Noble Lord who spoke last had chosen to
dwell. The speech of the Nolsle Earl who bad moved
the address was in a different tone, and although he did
not coincide with the Noble Earl in his opinions, yet he
was ready to admit that the tone and manner of the Noble
Earl's speech were excellent. Having said this much, he
would enter no further into the matter of these speeches,
but proceed to call their Lordships' attention to that
part of the address in which he could not entirely
concur That part of the address to which he
alluded, was that which related to the arrangement
of the separatire, between the Netherlands and Belgium,
and the treaty concluded with the King of the BAgians.
The passage in the speech was as follows :—" The ar-
rangement which I announced to yon at the close of the
last Session, for the separation of the States of Holland
and Belgium,has been followed by a treaty between the five
Powers and the King of the Belgians, which I have di-
rected to be laid before you as soon as the ratifications
shall have been exchanged. A similar treaty has not yei
been agreed to by the Kind of the Netherlands ; but 1
trust the period is not distant when that Sovereign will see
the necessity of acceding to an arrangement in which tilt
Plenipotentiaries of the five Powers have unanimously con-
curred, and which has been framed with the most earetul,
and impartial attention Co all the interests concerned.,