The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-25 00:00:00

IRISH REFORM BILL.

Mr. STANLEY rose to bring in the Irish Reform
Bill, arid in doing so the Hon. Miner observed,
the course I am now about to pursue is somewhat
unusual in not offering some observations at length on thy
reading of the first Bill, yet the House will do me the jus-
tice to recollect, that I said if leave be given for me to bring
in this Bill after what hail passed, I should not enter
into the minutiae of this Bill. I shall confine myself to the
main objects of the Bill, for I think every gentleman will
agree with me that, alter the very long discussions—
I may say, after three very long discussions on
the general principles of Reform—any observations
from me now on those general principles would be mis-
placed ; I shall therefore go into the principles of the
Bill as it affects Ireland only. There is one
circumstance to be observed in bringing forward this Bill,
that from the first to the concluding paragraph in it
there is not one disfranchising sentence.—(Cheers.
So far as the Bill goes it is confined only to
the extension of the franchise. There is no taking
away of franchise, excepting as regard a few
non-resident freemen. As respects the county representa-
tion, it is proposed by this Bill to follow the principle
that has been adopted in referetice to English county
representations, that is leaving the right of voting
in freeholders, and adding to them a most respectable and
independent class of people, I mean leaseholders for 21
years to the amount of 501. a year. In this step
we have deviated in one point from the practice
to be observed in England, inasmuch as we have ex-
cluded the clause which requires that the leases should
not have been renewed within two years previous
to the election. I think any gentleman acquainted with
a large proportion of the property in Ireland will
at once perceive the reason that has induced us to do this,
because there is a very large class of persons who hold
leases for twenty-one years. renewable every year, and who
would otherwise be excluded from exercising their v..te.
I allude to that large class of persons who hold land
either under Corporations or w►der the Church. We have
thought it right in this Bill not to introduce that restrictive
clause, therefore the leaseholders to the amount of
50/. a year for twenty-one years, will not be excluded
it they should have had their lease renewed within
two years of the election taking place. With regard to
copyliolders, I believe that there is only one copy-
hold estate in Ireland, and therefore it was consi-
dered unnecessary to make any provision as to them.
There is one alteration, which is this, that the Clergy
shall vote, not as beneficed Clergy, but in right of their
freelials, and he registered like any other freeholder—
Mr- O'CONNELL—To what amount?

Mr. STANLEY-501. Then with regard tohouseholders
renting houses to the amount of 101. a year, or occupying
a hon%e which, if let to a solvent tenant, would
fairly bring 10/. a year, as in England, if their
rent and taxes shall have been paid up, they shall

be entitled to vote in their boroughs. We have not
thought it right to interfere with the freeholders
in cities, towns, and boroughs, but to leave all who
have now a single vote to continue in full posses-
sion of that right. We have provided that upon the
extinction of 40s. freeholders in towns, their right of voting
shall be assimilated to that of householders in towns
There will be by this mode three classes of voters in cities
and boroughs in Ireland, namely, freeholders of 201, 101.,
and 401., leaseholders for 21 years of 50/. and house-
holders paying a rent of 10/. or occupying a house which
would let for that sum to a solvent tenant. With
regard to that part of the English Bill against which
the greatest objections have been urged—l mean the
power granted to a Committee of the Privy Coun-
cil, we have not thought fit to grant to the Privy
Council of Ireland the same extensive powers as those
granted to a Committee of the English Privy Council,
and therefore the powers of the Irish Privy Council will
he confined to the right of deciding what has been and
what shall be for the future the limits of Irish boroughs.
It is proposed that they shall, in the first place, take
a list of all at present claiming a right to vote,
and that that list shail he subsequently subjected to the
inquiry of a barrister of a certain standing at law, of
whom eight shall be nominated for the whole of Ireland;
and with regard to registration, following the English plan,
we propose that every year there shall be a registration of all
persons having a right to vote. That part of the business
shall be entrusted to assistant barristers. With regard to
the duration of the poll, we propose that in towns it
shall be k-pt open two days and no more—that in coun-
ties there shall be fifteen polling places—and that not
more than 600 electors be polled at each. In no
inconsiderable number of boroughs, although there
are no boroughs to be disfranchised, there must
be a complete destruction, not of the right of ex-
isting electors, but ef the exclusiveness of their rights.
—(Applause.)—We do not mean to go according to
the mathematical ratio of population, but we do not
wish unnecessarily to interfere with existing rights, in-
asmuch as there are none of the towns which do not
carry with them sufficient weight and respectability to send
Members to this House. We do not think it right to
adopt a plan which might be more perfect in theory, but
which would interfere with and destroy existing rights.
With regard to taking away the exclusive right of the
corporations, there cannot be taken any fair ground of ob-
jection. It will not be imputed to us that keepiug still the
seine pefrions who now exercise the right of sending
Members to Parliament, we are guilty of following a re-
volutionary system by extending that franchise which has so
long been monopolized by a few, to persons of respectability
that did not before possess that right.—(Hear.) Sir, in
looking to the list now before me, the first place mentioned
is Armagh ; with a population of between eight and nine
thousand, the number of voters is only thirteen. In
Belfast, with a -population of 37,237, the number of
voters is only thirteen. In Carlow, with a population
of eight thousand persons, still the same mystical Dum-
ber of only thirteen voters is to be found. In
Dublin, with a population of 185,000, the number of
electors is proportion itely small. In Ennis, with a po-
pulation of 6,500, we have again only 13 voters. In
Kilkenny, with 23,000 inhabitants, only 600 voters.
In Sligo, with 9,000, the right of voting rests with
only 13 ; and in Tralee, with 7,547, we find the
same number of thirteen, who are qualified according to
the existing system, to elect a Member of Parliament.
Sir, I do not think that there is any thing extravagant
in die proposition which we now advance, that the
favourite number of thirteen should no longer
continue to monopolize the elective franchises of
such places as Belfast, even if no larger than Armagh.--
But, Sir, while we propose thus not to destroy existing
rights, but to extend their rights and privileges of elec-
tive franchise, there are other places which stand forward so
prominently, not only with regard to their population, but
their wealth, commerce, and increasing prosperity, that I
am persuaded we exceed not the fair limits of moderation,
when we propose to give to four of the principal towns
that now send Members to Parliament each one addi-
tional representative. Sir, I propose to give to Belfast, to
Limerick, to Waterford, and to the county of the town of
Galway, upon this principle, one additional Member each.
It is proposed to assimilate the constituency of die Uni-
versity of Dublin to that of the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge, and for that purpose the right of voting for the
University of Dublin, which is now enjoyed solely by the
Provost, Fellows, and seventy Junior Scholars, it is pro-
posed by Otis Bill to extend to all who at any time have
been Scholars, and have kept their name or placed it on
the list within six months ef the time of voting. In doing
this, Sir, we cannot be charged with innovation, be•
cause, by the original charters of the three Uni•
versities, the right of voting for the University of
Dublin was confined to the Provost, Fellows, and Scholars
during their lives, whilst the right to vote for the repre-
sentatives of Oxford and Cambridge was extended to all
the Masters of Arts, and by the original charter of the
Dublin University it was provided that the election
should take place according to the usages of the
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; but, besides re-
verting to the original charter, there is another reason for
extending the right of voting to the Members of that Uni-
versity, and that reason I shall shortly state to the
House. Sir, in order to become a Scholar of the
University of Dublin it is necessary to puss through a
very severe elimination, and no young man who is not of
distinguished talents can obtain a scholarship. By ex-
tending the right of rotting we do away with an anomaly,
for according to the present system, a young man
of the age of eighteen might obtain a scholarship, and
therefore a vote for the University, but at the end of five
years that right is lost. Now, Sir, this appears to me
deserving of remedy; for I think a young man who ob-
tained a scholarship at the age of eighteen is more
capable at the end of five years, when he is deprived of
the right of voting, of exercising a sound judgment as to
the fittest person to represent the University, than
whilst he bad enjoyed that privilege, because at
that age he acts upon his own judgment, uninfluenced
by and disengaged from the trammel:, of his tutor, who is
generally a Junior Fellow, and which juniors have a great
influence in the election. This limitation is not ac-
cording to the original charter, for by that charter
the right of the Scholars to vote for the University
terminated only with their lives ; but by a subsequent
charter it was provided that the Scholars should, after five
years' enjoyment, forfeit the, stipendia which they en-
joyed as Scholars. By a coarse, and, in my opinion, an un-
constitutional construction of that clause which took away
the stipendia, it was held that the right of voting
was also taken away. 1 know that this subject was dis-
cussed before a Committee of the House of Commons, and
that the decision of the Committee was in favour of that
construction; but I also know, that some of the highest
law authorities in Ireland, and among them I may mention
the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, were of opi-
nion that taking away the stipendia by the latter
charter did not take away the right of voting granted
by the original charter, anti for these reasons it is
thought fit to restore the right granted by the original
charter. Sir, as I said before, it is intended to assimi
late, as far as is possible, the state of the Universities
of England and Ireland, and when I take into consideration
that the Scholars of the University of Dublin were a
body of men who had distinguished themselves in their
youthful drys, and who had afterwards filled some
of the highest institutions in the law, in the church,
and in other professions, I think it is not going
too far to say that, whilst each of the English
Universities is represented by two Members, the
Irish Universities should also have the privilege
of sending two Members to Parliament. These, Sir, are
the only inere Ise Which we mean to make to the repre-
sentation of Ireland,—namely, four representatives
from the large cities, and one from that enlightened
body, the University of Dublin. But we propose to make
gone t hwrhoiucghhlall
shallthe
npoawr tlsmogf tiheaevße iltlo, with
toinoen.o r two
a large increase in the number of the constituent body. 1
bare
excep
taing'Gallant Member introduced a Bill this Session,
providing that where a man possessed two freeholds,
neither one nor the other of which was of the value of
101., but which together were equal to that sum, he should
have a vote as a 10/. freeholder. As some doubts existed
as to the state of the law on this subject, a declaratory
clause hal been introduced • into the Bill explaining
the law on this point. There was another clause in-
troduced in the Bill of the Gallant and Honourable
Member, which related to giving a cautionary notice
by the pondidates to the freeholders on coming to the
the poll to tender their votes. That clause was thought
likely to give a great deal of unnecessary trouble, and
therefore it was not thought right to insert such a clause
in the present 8,11. He had then explained, he believed,
all the points of the Bill, and he hoped clearly.—(Cheers.)
lie should be quite ready, if it appeared necessary, to give
any further explanation ; but, as the principles of the
measure had been already explained, he should abstain
from offering any further observations, reserving himself
to meet any objections to the Bill on the second reading,
which he should not propose to take place till after Easter.
In the meantime, he should propose ',hat the Bill should
be printed and circulated in Ireland, which would make
its provisions known.
Colonel TRENCH meant to carry forward his Bill, if
the dissolution with which the Parliament had been
threatened allowed him. lie hoped that the Bill of the

Right Hon. Gentlemen would not pass, and he certainly
should press his own measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL expressed his great satisfaction with
the Bill, and was sure that it would give great pleasure to
all Ireland. There were some of the details of the Bill to
which perhaps be should not assent, and which he trusted
the Right Hon. Gentleman would make no objection to
alter in the Committee, if they did not interfere with the
principle of the Bill. He was happy to hear that non-re-
sidents were to be disfranchised. He was happy also to
hear that the Corporations were no longer to retuct the
Members ; and he wished that the disfranchisement had
been extended further, and that the right of electing the
Corporation officers had been extended to all the inhabi-
tants. As he understood the present measure, the forty-
shilling freeholders, being residents, were not to be deprived
of their franchise during their lives.—(Mr. Stanley was
understood to answer, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man was right.)—He was glad of that, and approved of
the plan laid down for voting in the counties ; because he
thought that there was a prospect of forming a better
class of freeholders and of voters. He approved of the
sum of 101. being chosen as the point of exclusion ; being
of opinion that freeholds under that sum should not entitle
the owners to votes. He conceived the proposed altera-
tion would be advantageous. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had described the electors of several towns to consist of
thirteen. In fact, there were seventeen boroughs in Ire-
lanA, the whole constituency of each of which consisted
of twelve members and a Sovereign. They, however,
were not the real constituency ; for, generally, the whole
thirteen were appointed by one man ; and they thought
themselves as much hound in honour to vote for the seven-
t-en persons who appointed them, as they were to abstain
from picking pockets. This was the case with the whole
seventeen boroughs, except Ennis, which has two Masters,
as there the proprietors lay two in a bed. He felt con-
vinced that Ireland would regard the proposed change as
a great good, as it would get rid of that mockery of re-
presentation, that corruption, and that public sale of seats
to the highest bidder, which were a disgrace to the
country. Such places as the borough of Tralee or
Portarlington were put up and sold as by auction
to the highest bidder, who did not, indeed, pay
for them in money, as that would be contrary to
law, but by a cheque on their banker. He did not un-
derstand on what principle, however, that five Members
were to he given to Scotland, with only a population of
2,1003.000, while Ireland, with 6,800,000, was only to
have five additional Members. It was proposed to add
five to forty-five fit Scotland, and only to add five
to one hundred for Ireland, which, as far as he saw, was
very disproportionate. There was nne town which had
escaped the Right Hon. Gentleman's notice, owing, be
was afraid, to the manner in which it was described in
the return. That town was Kilkeany, which was said to
contain only 23,000 inhabitants; but if St. Conici, which

formerly returned two Members as well as Kilkenny,
though it. formed but one town with it, they being divided
only by the river, were added to it, Kilkenny would exceed,
in population both Galway and Waterford, and would deserve
to have an additional Member. Dublin was, be thought, ill-
treated by not receiving an additiona 1111 mh,...r. Ed inbu h
_ _

and London had each received two additional Members, and
why not Dublin, which, including the suburbs and the
vicinage of the Black Rock, contained at least a popula-
tion of 250,000. They might strike off the north side of
the town, and leaving the two members for the south, give
an additional Member to the north. He would refer next
to the University, and he regretted the alteration made
there, as still tending to keep up the distinction between
Catholics and Protestants, which it was so desirable to
obliterate. Presbyterians and Catholics could not have
votes for the Univi rsity, and those exclusions tended
to keep Protestant and Catholic gentlemen separate. He
did not propose that Roman Catholics should be admitted

without proving their qualification; but after proving
themselves worthy, they might have the right of voting,
which would not make the University less a Protestant
University than it now was. The present plan produced
apostacy without conviction, and individuals were made
hypocrites, if not infidels, for the sake of getting the
worldly advantages which Protestantism afforded. They
were hypocrites for five years, and afterwards, ad-

vertis4-d their shame. As for counties, he wished that
the right of voting had been given to him who had a
profitable interest in the ground to the value of 501. for
freeholders might have large tracts of ground, nominally of
much greater value, without its yielding them so much.
He bslieved it would have been better to give the vote to
those who had leaseholds. The owners of freeholds, as he
understood, mieht be non-residents, and the plan he tug.
gested would have the effect of encouraging the increase of
the middle classes. What was wanted in Ireland was a
substantial body of yeomanry, and he had felt some conso-
lation when he was called upon to sacrifice the 40s. free-
holders, at reflecting that it would give the landlords a mo-
tive for making freeholders of 101., giving them a chattel
interest. The Hon. Member referred to the case of Con-

nemara, to show how easy a landloid could create a body
of aominal M. freeholders, where five hundred had been
made in one year, and slid, he therefore wished that the
men who had a profitable interest of ten pounds in the
land should be the voters, rather than those whose free-
holds were more a burden than a profit to them. These,
however, were details for the Committee, and he would
wait till the Bill got into the Committee to state them.
In England there were seven counties, each of which had

less thin 200,000 inhabitants, and four Members each; in
Irelmd, however. there were counties containing from
250,000 to 300,000 people, which were not to receive an
additional Member. There was one county is England
which had not above 72,000, which had two Members,
while Down and Tyrone, which had nearly3oo,ooo people,
had no Member. He asked if it were fair play that the
counties of England should get several additional Members,
and the counties of Ireland get none ? He wished to see

the franchise extended, and tiie distinction between Catho-
lics and Protestants done away in all that concerned Cor-
porations and political tights. If that were done, he had

little doubt that this bill would give, as he hoped it
would, such general satisfaction, that no man should any
longer desire any change, except those who asked for
change for the sake of change itself. He did not think
mere change desirable ; and if the people had reason to be
satisfied, they would ceise to wish for a separation. He
should rejoice if that desire was 'superseded by a wish to
engage in mutual good offices and show mutual kindness.
(Hear.) He hoped that the propositions of the Right
Hen. Gentleman would be taken into consideration, and
that the Bill, when passed, would contribute to make a
perpetual and irreversible union of the two countries.
Mr. LEADER was prepared to vete fir the motion,
and would go into the Committee on the Bill with a
mind unbiassed by any wish but co promote the advantage
of both countries. He wished to submit to the Boise
some considerations of great political importance, which
were worthy of their best attention, before they decided
the great question. He wished to show them a way out
of their difficulties, and how they might spread represent-
ation more equally over the country. What he meant to
state were facts of great import nice, and nothing hut
facts. If they drew a line from Londonderry to Cape
Clear, they would find that on the north-west and south-
west of Ireland there were only five places returning Mein-
hers to Pariiament, while on the east anti north•east the
cities and boeoughs returned twenty-one Members; Sligo,
Galway, Ennis, Tralee, and Limerick, each returned a
Member on the western side ; while on the east and north-
east they bad Londonderry, Coleraine, Carrickfergus, Bel-
fast, Downpatrick, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin
city and Dublin University, Wexford, New Ross, Water-
ford, Dungarvon, Bandon, Youghall, Cork, and Kinsale,
returning twenty Members, in opposition to the five on
the other side. The House would see, therefore, that one
side of the island had a larger number of Members to at-
tend to its commercial and manufacturing interests, while
the other side was comparatively neglected. Could any
one say that this was a fair distribution of representation
in a country which was almost unknown to those who
governed it—which had no tie to connect it with the in-
stitutions of the monarchy except its representatives—and
which bad been subjected to the change of sixteen Secre-
taries in the course of fifty years.—(Hear.) He con-
tended, therefore, that an extension of the representation
was as necessary in that country as an alteration of the
franchise; and that with such a Government, anti under
such institutions, representatives must be given to other
parts of Ireland, in order that the people might possess
organs through whom they may communicate directly
with the Legislature. He supported the principle of
the Biil. He approved of it in common with all the
friends of Ireland ; and he, therefore, would vote for

its going to a second reading; but he did hope, when it
came into a Committee, that such alteration would be made
in its details as would enable him to say that the represen-
tation of the pal is of Ireland, as well as its fair share in
the representation of the empire, were such as the friends
of that country could cordially approve; and that it would
at length possess a means of making the opinions of its
people known in the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
Passing over the question of the difference between the
representation of the boroughs on one side of the island
and the other, he now applied himself to the point ad-
verted to by the Hun. Member for Waterford; namely,
that the counties of Ireland, possessing a larger population
than the counties of England, should also obtain addi-
tional representatives. There was the county of Donegal
for instance, which possessed at the present moment a
population of 310,337 persons; was it not, he would ask,

. .
of more importance that a wont/ like that should roe,
an additional representative, than that another Mentu''
should, as the Right Hon. Gentleman announced, be Ili
stowed on the town of Galway 1 Let the House look
the population of some of the counties which had but tO
representatives, compared with that of some of the EoF,
lish counties which are now to have four. In the Nor"
there was Donegal with 310,000, Cavan with 243,01
Monaghan with 218,000, Tyrone with 327,000, Ali,
Down with 406,762. Then in the South-west, Gnltni
had 386.000, Mayo 366,000, Limerick 273,000, 'Fille;
rary 433,000, and Cork '787,000. Now, without "*YuTe
ifs
anything of Down and the others, any one of which I:
a population twice as large ao.ne of the English countrehtP,
how the Noble Lord (Russe'l) could have overlooked
county of Cork in his estimate, he was at a loss to imagine:
That county, with its immense population, trade, old r.,
sources, possessed but two Members, although it hada:Tr:7..l
dent gentry, at all times numerous enough to form five ',di be
rent sets of Grand Juries, composed of men who slot
entitled to take rank beside his Majesty's Ministers. nu
tot). could the Noble Lord, in his distribution of rePre'e;
tatives, pass over the borough of Kilkenny, the seat at
time of the Parliament, and at the present moment Peat
seining. 23,000 inhabitants, and one of the fflo'' oPuleg
and rising towns of Ireland. He hoped that the ela
the
of these and other places would be well considered inhee.
Committee, and that England would at last attach t 0 the
self by an act of justice and policy, the feeling' °f ell
people of Ireland. By giving a voice to the weak a' "hi,
as to the strong in the great Council of the nation, t,
giving representatives to support the interests of the
as well as the. wealthy and opulent, they would st„
possess the country in good earnest, and binding t°v,
land the affections and interests of the people of Ire.,"-re:
di-pelling their doubts, securing the confidence-4°";gbo
ing by love, not by fear—they might defy all enemies
would vent are to assail them. The Hun. and Lesfrr
re
Gentleman then ref-rred to the immense value of the e
ports and imports of Ireland, which amounted £0113:0
than twenty-one millions annually, and impressed (41,
House the great advantages which must result
ad ad

still further encouragement of the manufactures 58 4,e i,""L gn
culture of Ireland. There were no means by whic°.;jeg
objects could be more securely effected than by ;twee- keere.
the number of representatives, and giving the great Poe etalber
prietors and capitalists a stimulus to reside on their Otto at al
end cultivate the good will of their tenantry•
yry ltke
present moment there were in the vicinity of the P.; of Sit C.
water, where he resided, and which %VilS, he believed, lire 1 cent,
the most fertile districts in Ireland, full thirty miles loivicae.
there was net to be found a single resident gent`e,.--teo tp,"atei
The effect of the ravages of absenteeism were b°` pflrsak
rr
evident in the poverty and misery of the people, and diterecie ar
to this evil, and to the consequent ignorance and
ijy ]binned
ralisation of the people, that the House would now 4101, he 1/401d,
successful remedy. He had stated facts well lOaruel TiPttuitm
There was nothing new in them ; but they were so91)°,10 ealete
by t-stimony which could not be controverted, and 14; ttfl i%teritiqu
for the House to judge of their importance. He reri be hilt dot
that the present state of the representation would n°ol, kite
13 remedied unless great alterations were made in the or :ttality
and he, therefore, implored them to consider well the,os (Ile Was
tore of the claims he had put forth on behalf of on' Or, an
to 14(e4te4ee
before. the measnre passed into a law.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES said he did not rise at that momet of e• kto re
enter into an examination of the detiils of the Bill, I° nr!, tight foil
course be could not be supposed to have obtained lofar-0$ line, by
tion enough for that purpose; but he thought there vi gh.)
fundamental objection to the principle on which it eo,.
needed, which he thought extremely well worth attenllo ''stet t
The Hon. Member for Waterford said all he wautsd e kteir,ed
fair play for Ireland. Now be (Mr. Bankes) would fer th Tett er of
give lair play to England also.—(Hear, 0 tse rt
one, doubted very much the competence of the Parlisalefie to „
of the United Kingdom to do what the Bill proposed•tee 11:e,theri
knew very well that it was difficult to say to what eatio tel °ad
the otrinipcoence of Parliament did not extend, and fur foejell'i
any attempt to question that omnipotence was not °cite hit ere At
willingly received by those who were called on to eservoje 14,. Lo
the power.—(Hear.)—But still he would ask thou of
supported the Bill whether they recollected the ball' ltd )441,tet
representation settled by the Union between Engler 11 f
Scotland, and confirmed by the Union with Ireland, n'—of
a century afterwards? Now if it was in the poltroe Istem!livei
nations to declare any of these Acts permanent and
ref! ;it !° he
vocable, and if it was in the power of language to ealoti bet if, or
their intentions that their acts should be so, he beileedbi 104 Wonn
that a reference to the terms of the Act of Union °Toe Is 4 aouhi
show that such was the meaning and intention ofty Leare
who were parties to thein.—(Cries of bear, lleaPiese ugh t,
If they looked to the words of the compacts entered
on those occasions, they would find that nothing, 00, tie 'who
omitted which could render solemn, and binding, Lot
otiee (gong
alterable, that part of the Act which settled the rel.iee of
proportions of the representation of the two coo' ty tll4lt°f pr
If, then, they were now to destroy that proportion ilroes kith' °1
manner proposed, they would defeat and destroy the tea 0 4.4 'just
of a compact which was intended to be as binding al:0V 44,4;t4ei
permanent as any treaty which could be framed bet eel pthcnlisl
independent uations.—(Hear.)—When, therefore, heit Ittlejor na
Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Leader) pressed on' of tt,e le at
attention the comparative wealth, population, and 010 1141:41/elyr
merce of the boroughs and counties of Ireland, be kej ,tae
Bankes) would answer him by saying that it involvd V
and
question into which Parliament could not enter; °doe tail
begged him to direct his attention to what had beelleeP
formerly on settling the balance of representation bete t
England, Ireland, and Scotland.—(Hear.)—Soo, be eke: oo
sons considered the measures of his Majesty's present Itht Poi
vernment to be revolutionary.—(Hear, hear )--41," eie•
tree of those who entertained that opinion ; but if a'nold N, A
terteineel the least doubt on the subject,. that doubt vil'eset ;41(11t tle
compacttd
tbi
nheitruleigmel
iAotv
aict otbthf
Union.—(Hear
ne
i(icotland
eall antiit.
et
oea mfr breakataitOnrid.e)m_wbi c
which
up
was thatco ee e
tot i et gifts
creased, lie would say, let them be decrrfesatsies7l:°;Pulbadanir—dieilindell' I.tt.Y.?(4oetivf(
be a decrease in proportion. If there was to be ,e.,0 Nngill
nution at all, let the balance of the representation be; be qt ha
the three kingdoms lie preserved. If the scale was ere "
preserved, Ireland, inatead of having 104 or 105 obi tt OSA',
hers, ought, if England was to lose 62 Meinber,, ..teel 41'4:
limited at once to 84 or 85. This would be c"ael lott%ifhl'
with the principle of the Union, which that 1-I°° ;9008 Nbe,.4
formally sanctioned and adopted ; but he wao one al° to
who thought that the House was not now cannete") ter
deal with the question which it raised.—_.(Hear, hear. h th
Mr. CROMPTON, in answer to the objection aej to tie tuft
Hon. Member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Baukes), begegge ets.-u
refer him to the terms of the Act of Union itself.d '4°l
40th of George tie Third, c. 29, the. Hon. Meinbfr to 'Pk41,611,
A vie V`thom,,
find that ceetain boroughs and towns of Irekpl,ba:pont:ete9:edocoisoro;
11..54t0440
%le
lies
continue to send Members to Parliament in the l'ff ,10° Its%
lions there mentioned, not for ever, but until the the el
_I,
Parliament might otherwise provide—(Hear, heerroteea ,eth
boroughs which were disfranchised being alto wed ob.' 'l(O,eN
thousand pounds each as a compensation for the JO cibythe
re
right. The very boroughs mentioned in the debate, ojerl ptie h
fiHfotene.nAtl:omusbaenrd fopro\uV;Im.tiesr,foorrd,
rtahtahterof
the BKennh't Cho rt.
Ilkttint
turned the Members, claimed it, but the claim was The 'll
lowed, and the money applied to other pur
Hon. Member called the Bill revolutionary,
Wa
tended that the whole plan was founded both in tl
in equity.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) T
;Ott
sure was called for by the unanimous voice of the le el Ne,erla
—(Hear, hear.) It was supported by every Priod °I;
al
sound legislation, and justifiable on every moral eboaae tf
cred feeling. The time was come when such a , oio
V I.
nogg
could not ba delayed ; and it was the merit of P
tom its
that it did not re-construct but restore time Corotitu•ne" \,tsmi°
a manner which would place an effectual bar to thetie on' nil o
of all who desired more violent alterations. eft,.b., est'"
Bill which
thpioitsstelsiesioloid fijirt:
pounds leaseepeltitoisinh,l),fitioniatispieerfrsrttayomow(eisiui.ilidu prove injuriotoe *..° if
that
a(fesaillter
person
sl icoent.olinn, seemed tO sap the Ve fro
as
be worth fifty shillings. The Hon. Member ficre elatad,
L‘l twee
subject matttehri,son
however, have said this, if he had read the very teei
of the Bill, for lie would find it there exPrese ipotlOui tk,
ea
that the leasehold must he bona itle worth fifty nisei ;,
and that the value of the leasehold was to be deter' a 11,10
the
ist
esramaeppmoainntneedr afsorintiElartiglpaunrdp7sle,.y a reference. t
of ifetn7l eieal
manner
the right m
(I:
ft owhh'tira‘iihcgi the!' tail;
The
for Kilkenny intimated an opinion that the t°
.eseetegl \file°Ltil4
way was not so well entitled to an additional rep i ,
did '011„. ke,e l Yeiq ti
as some other pl ices ; but the Hon. Member of b
perhaps, recollect, that although the
tt
Y the
way itself was only 27,000, the populatliirodoteel:::e:rfi;l:
which were now to particip ite in the right
at had b. 74,
amounted to full 40,000 persona ; and so grey `rt 137,
the increase of its trade, that the Customs 'hutted to D,„;
fileveo,yoeoaorsLagoTwheereHoonnly 30,0001., now
inrow altuared °fi' of klfteitha
avo
not other
voting
ghoabftjoelitt•t theohnost
ltndoi
be extended
University
Bill,o f Dcuotbnoltiaenlnl dwevrht :o.rai
degree
however,
recollect, Master
ha
t Arts.
the Therg :lAd thanjibe
eeta7 vlibeit;:rtste:iliee::( jti Y1:110:11:0:
charter. Tbesej charters were very different ford:
degree of Master of Arts, The Hon. M'llls jnni
Ox
ford, for
the ti3Ot: di(
versities of Oxford and Cambridge. Iloe ind ost, ItIL4 °I I
stance, the right to as placed in the Chan" Fravi, of .
Masters. In Trinity Colle the right wo matt tort et 0444
Fellows, and Scholars. Nov,w one of the great rotitotartif etei
the Reform Bills was to preserve all existing
ClOOO It
as far as it was possible to preserve them'

Nth the objects which were to he attained. The usage
'srrs long time had been, that no scholars should vote
*la) were not on what is called the foundation. The
"jilt however, sets this right, and restores the ancient
Practice, which allowed the whole of the scholars to exer-
!le the right of electing a representative. If they were
•"
admit the Masters of Arts, it would be an invasion of
b'"b'sCharter, and, at the same time, render the number of
Charter,
inconveniently large. He believed that the
a'umber Would then he near 5,000, and that must render
`se elections so tumultuous, and, from the voters being
`se
a great distance, so expensive, that he thought it
lianld be anything but an improvement. According to
present arran!ement, there would be bout thre er
LNI. hundred voters. The Hon. Membaer, when.
he
.1b tied so strongly in favour of the right of Catholics to
bstea seemed to forget that the charter of Trinity College
.4' granted for the support and extension of the Protest religion. The Hon. Member for Waterford probably
nought the Catholic religion the better religion. He
117. Crompton) thought otherwise. He thought the
religion the better; and it should be recollected.
LXI the number of Catholics who had graduated, and
if" Would continue to graduate in Trinity College, that
}a the plan of the Hon. Member in allowing the Masters
0 Yale was adopted, the Catholics would certainly return
belti.o.lic Members. The arguments of the Hon. Mem-
aid not go against the Bill so much as it went to the
hlersion of the charter of the Colege. The obstacle
to the course proposed by the Hon. Mosher was to be
)1• 114(1in the oath ; and, if the Hon. Member would bring
11 Bill co remove that oath, he could understand the
ta°4* Member's object, but he could not understand the
it'itteetion as an argument against the Bill. Having thus
th to reply to some of the objertions urged against
lie.would now merely say that it was, in his
a-,4l°'; ealeul.ted to avert revolution, nut to produce
*) and he was confident that the bettefits the people
144111 derive from it must associate the Noble Lord who
?itZiuced it to that House, and the name of that other
le Lord who was known to have drawn it up, with
„Calory and prosperity of their country, and that they
11 go down to posterity among its greatest benefac-
Ze-(Hear, hear.)
ICI% O'CONNELL, is explanation, said that ts.e Hon.
4:llber for Saltash (Mr. Crompton), bad proved him-
kta at all events, a sufficiently good Protestant to repre-
!the most Prote-tans University.--(A laugh.)
gir
kh C. WETHERELL, although impar congressus in
kk"ontest between two such able and learne.l prisons as
13:','8olicitorsGeneral for Ireland and the Hon. Member
1,1 Waterford, yet he was unable to resist the temptation
4,1'."41g a lance with the Learned Solicitor on one point
largument Member for Saltash, the Solicitor-General for
a gds had concluded his speech by a reference to the
Iliktuity of the fame of the founders of the Reform Bill.
pf 'Members of that House had heard of a certain worthy
i4ttniquity, wile, in order to obtain immortality, had
bat,
down the Temple of Ephesus. He did not know
k at kind of immortality he obtained, but some such im-
k:ttality was that which the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
(l? was disposed to confer on the authors of the Bill.—
li's', and a laugh.)—ln some such manner the Hon.
14,: her for Saltash himself was brought over from Ire-
,to represent the borough of Saltash, in order that he
gitel,t followup the true Ephesian and immortalising prin.
, by burning down the borough be represented.—(A
44:1.) The instances of this kind of Ephesian confla-
ea.°4 were not, however, coefined by the preseet
(e net to Melt Members. There was his Hon. and
klatZed Friend, the Member for Bletchingley; Le was
Wth of those Ephesian conflagrators ; he was another
tla -Ilse reformers, these restorers ; who were brought into
a, ()use for the purpose of showing that they ought not
4,14 there. Then there was the Learned Lord Advocate.
iii had also been brought in for the sante purpose ;
io close the avenues to the House against all
nil,' Attorneys and Solicitors-General, and against all
Ve Lords Advocate ; and, in short against all fu-
ll:4l4n of talents and genius. Lastly, but not least of
Ephesian conflagrators, was the Hon. and Learned
al,poer for Milbourne Port, who on a late occasion had
bly (144,1 sentiments as well conceived as they were forci-
late !livered. He (Sir C. Wetherell) had peculiar plea-
;it if that Hon. and Learned Gentleman say,
iby it an former occasions, he might have shossn himself
kd Warn and intemperate and violent, he had given up,
kid %id not return to that agitating system. The Hon.
!tt 'earned Gentleman, the Member for Milboarne Port
'sough why it should be called a port the First Lord of
Admiralty alone knew) was a splendid example of
who h.td been nig the boron brought in for the purpose of disfran-
ha
ghs which they represented, for the put.-
');,
°f t of destroying their own seats ; for the pur-
talllt proving that their being in the House was the
Shtut corruption. To all these Hon. Individuals he
,4„
()
justly apply the maxim of the ancient writer:—
Sa".°4lei exemplum plusquam ratio." It was impos-
Ikthtl:tlittening to them not to feel that they exhibited,
ttalhiP °van personal qualities, the most brilliant and irre-
i tt, e argument against the very measure which they
l‘itsttsstlyneating.—(Hear.) He trusted, however, that
vitae would long have the pleasure of hearing these
ilaik:nd Learned Gentlemen—that they would long have
ktuatee of the Hon. Member for Saltash, and the
elttnti Learned Member Milbourne Port, notwith-
f thobe Hon. and Learned Gentlemen had been
(Ith'et over from Ireland and put into English boroughs,
pillanPurPose of proving with great ability that they
4. t') have been returned to the House of Com-
, them And here he wished to ask his Hon. and Learned
to
Itletnber for Bletchingley, for whose high cha-
in h.nd attainments no man had a greater respect
Ity:111,, self, how he could contend that the opinion
tsit th-r of Reform was universal in the country,
it • lie e University of Cambridge had petitioned against
Y, (Sirk C. Wetherell) belonged to tlie other Univer-
iulellie e" had been supposed to be too sensitive on matters
t ,the Monarch, the Church, aid the Peerage;
as eh never heard that the University of Cambridge
thattt able with being over suspicious on such points.
11.britit,,:ajversity had prepared a petition, which had
"., but which, by some accident, perhaps—for
ethber'4o from imputing any impropriety to the Hon.
tetle, for that University—had not found its way to
ter in t,ei the House. It was like a lost letter, cr a
Nd b." Dead Letter Office; and he had no doubt it
h mtn
'lO4. "P some day or other. Whenever it did so,
'b „ Learned Friend, the Member for BI tchinely,
l!hatiZb'ahlY abstain from vilifying that learned and
‘,,,eu,body of persons, by saying that the feeling
lar-ogand was unanimous in favour of [reform.
nf'w dvert to the immediate topic before the
el au the Bill which had brought in by the Right
,aao'''f Secretary for Ireland—the revolutionary Bill;
t Ugh What was now proposed was called by the
.I.\.hreatatoration, in his dictionary the word was revon-
•;4raferhad intended to-solicit the attention of the House
Oa hence to the topics which had been so admirably
taea4 the upright, able, and experienced Metnaer for
of I)°l4et. By the articles of the Union with
4t e number of Members from that MUD, ry was
.411 tvilihundred. By the articles of the antecedent
ILttNot: Scotland, the number of Members fixed for
Buai'ts Was forty-five. Those unions %vere, to all
14:441 t„i
Purposes,t not merely
iActsi,h owfasPartthiaattnetrihte
t ,
, toa 41erolier;s tsht7pulated basis
of
fasw the fair proportion
ton tat Countries ought to bear to the whole repre-
' I Re
for , appealed to the Honourable and Learned
and LNtiaresborough, whether this was not the
ta
ewuather it Was competent to the House of Com-
p:" down tteae federal unions and politic:al trea-
\lttitich."h" they wee not final and conclusive? Now
titaletle°teneof sixty-two Members from the House, notd
c'l, hut q la proportion from England, Scotl.nd, an
fri,l solely from England, was an outrageous de-
f. binthe principle of the Union. Let the argu-
'llsa sad r* Mr. Fox and Mr. Windhatn, on tiee
t`sti,atholic F • tam, be remembered. It
.attanaipa
lateen Over again urged by them, that the propor-
aitaf, the Irish and English Members of the House
-43 tv 4hn a ould render innoxious any infusion that
NiJui,,PPrehended of Catholic Members. But this
14:1)to.) When the main question again came under dis-
tllleatilhtich he would call the attention of the House;
ptae, trii"' make it the subject both of inquiry and
I,llle, tilat loPping off of sixty-two Protestant Mem-
tl7'mse was, he maintained, untenab:e in pin-
t e,h littret, operation u-f it would be stoat detrimental
QittY of the Protestant Church. Ile could not
aZalY,Atta, T'olutionary Bill should thus deprive them
tsiele. 'leathers. The Hon. Member tor Preston
Nbut: trlieurt'd his constituents from disfranehise-
itaa 'eatht was a kind of political selfishness. The
ra ae • .. I 4,04 it!, his princip!e+, to whom popularity
• Wh n'tot inwhich he d • and had his
ktt
at ;tillvh, 'mein be said to be the vox popua in that
OtA64it 4:tit.l;:st
Was so in his own opinion,. if not in
tat ygeeenther ought not to have satisfied himself
44,..‘rpi °l Preston, but ought to have taken care
dyes
similarly circumstanced. Is was unqu'es-
' tia, e „10 at e
articles of Union with Scotland and with
Ite:ithe tadnait of this numerical change in the pro-
tlivhim,tenahere from those countries It had cc-
dad4lo iii4l37orever, that there might be other reasons
• ei't
sd his Majesty's Government to propose
reek ,• In commerce there was what was
to trade," Now strange things were said

by some people of the House of Commons. He would
not come within a hundred leagues of what was said by
some people of the House of Commons. But when it was
seen that sixty-two Members «•ere to be lopped off from
the representation of England, and that, on the orening
of the question, three, but now it appeared five, were to
be added to the representation of Ireland, it might be
suspected that an opportunity was afforded to Ministers of
playing tricks by private bargains and negotiations ; and
of using the "stork in trade," in their hands for the pure
pose of jobbing here and jobbing there, as might be con-
venient. The Right Hon. Mover of the Bill under consi-
deration had talked of the charter of the University of
Dublin. It was the only time during the whole of the
discussion that the supporters of Reform had mentioned
charters. It could hardly be known that any charters
were in existence, or that any charters were about to be
destroyed. But now, after twelve days' deliberation, there
came this miserable postscript, in which the necessity of
consulting charters was insisted upon !
Lord ALTHORP observed that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman might call the proposed measure what be
liked. The people of England knew that it was not revo-
lutionary, or they would not support it. The people of
England had no wish for revolution, and they would not
support any proposition whit+ they believed had a ten-
dency to promote it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had made a great deal of the Cambridge petition. He
was sight in doing so ; for he (Lord Althorp) believed
that it was the only petition against the Reform Bill which
had emanated from any thing like a public meeting. It
was a rare exception to the general feeling of the country.
As to its not twine" yet been presentel, the fact was that
his Hon. Friend had not received it in time to be enabled
to do so. The arguments which had been urged by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman against Reform, were pre-
cisely similar to those which had been urged against Ca-
tholic emancipation, and against the improvement of the
Scottish burghs. As to the argument which the Hun.
and Learned Member had built upon; the proportion of
the Members of the different counties of England, Scot.
land, and Ireland. it was rendered nugatory by the con-
sideration that the proportion did not exist, as it respected
Scotland, when the Union with Ireland took place.—
That was a sufficient answer to the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, but he would hilly say that the
union of the three countries having been completed, and
the whale having become one kingdom, he did not conceive
that Parliament ought to be stopped in their plans of refor-
mation by any consideration of the kind advanced by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. When the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, therefore, talked of the danger which
would result from diminishing the proportion of English
Members, as compared with the .Members for Scotland
and Ireland, his apprehension was destitute of foundation.
It was natural that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
should revert, by way of argument, to the Catholic ques-
tion ; but the time for such an illustration was passed by.
The House and the country had seen what the event of
Catholic emancipation had been; and the Hon and
Learned Gent'eman would not he able now to drown the
cry for Re'orm by any cry of " No Popery !"—(Loud
cheers.) The Hun. and Learned Gentleman asked why
the number of the Members of that House was to be re-
duced ? The answer was—to get rid of the boroughs
which ought not to he represented. He begged to ask the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in return, whether he would
not have attacked his Majesty's Ministers if, instead of
proposing to disfranchise those boroughs, they had availed
themselves of the circumstance to increase the balance on
the popular side? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
asked if Isis Majesty's Government had really made up
their minds to persevere in the proposition of cutting off
sixty boroughs. His answer was yes.—(Loud cries of
hear, hear, hear.) They would listen to no compro-
mise; they considered the disfranchisement of rotten bo-
roughs, which they had proposed, essential to the public
welfare; and they trusted that the House and the country
would stand by them in carrying it into effect.—(Long
continued cheers. )—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had charged the Hon. Member for Preston with taking
care of the electors of the borough which he represented,
and not of any others. The question which had been put
by the Hon. Member for Preston was occasioned by the
statement of the Hon. and Learned Member for Wey-
mouth, that the wording of the clause in the Bill did not
secure to those who had at present the right of voting for
boroughs that right for their lives. He (Lord Althorp)
did not know whether it was so or not ; but if it did not
do so, it (lid not express the view which the proposers of
the Bill took of the subject, and the clause must he altered.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, he had a great respect
for the Noble Lord (Althorp) ; but he bad not the slightest
respect for the measure. He considered it was a revolu•
tionary measure—that it changed the whole Constitution
of England, by disfranchising men against whom no guilt
had been proved, and confi•cating chartered privileges.
The chnnge in 1688 was called a revolution ; but, after
all, it was only a change of dynasty—the substitution of
the House of Brunswick for the Stuarts. The whole re-
p: esentation of the country was left unaltered ; ancient pri-
vileges were maintained, and among the privilege', the
rotten boroughs; were preserved in the same manner as be-
fore. The object of the revolution of 1688 was to main-
tain things as they had been. The object of the revolu-
tion of 1831 was to change all things. The Noble Pay-
master had stated, that the principle upon which this Bill
proceeded, was that oficonferring the franchise upon com-
bined population and property. But he contended that
that principle was violated by allowing more Members
to Tavistock, Bedford, Malton, and Caine, than to Block-
borne, Bradford, or Bolton-le-moor; and he declared that
when the revolution of 1831 was consummated, and the
Noble Lord's delegates were assembled, each Member would

be trying to get a greater representation for his constituents,
and this struggle they could not stop, because they would
have violated all charters—all that was before deemed
sacred ; and as the right of an Act in 1833, or any future
year, could not be denied, when they admitted the right
of a similar Act of change iu 1831. The Noble Lord's
plan would be sure to he superseded whenever a more
fashionable plan aas proposed. He louked upon the Bill
as mischievous, because it was calculated to erect a bar
between the lower and the middle classes. The man who

lived by the sweat of his brow was degraded, and must
feel himself so; and when he did, excitement would in-
fallibly prevail to an extent which would force Ministers
'to new concessions, and render it impossible for a Re-
formed Parliament to put a stop to the popular deniand.—
He maintained that it was perfectly evident that this mea-
sure was supported by very many pet sons, merely because
of the facilities it afforded then in the prosecution of ulte-
rior objects. The Hon. Member for Waterford had stated,
in a -letter to the people of Ireland, that this Bill was the
forerunner of the repeal of the Union, and the llon. Mem-
bar for Middlesex, in a letter to the inhabitants of Argyll,
and another Scotch county had said, ,‘ do not stir the
question of the ballet, or that of universal suffrage; praise
the Government; express your confidence in the Govern-
ment, and do not move for the present."—(Hear.) This,
he submitted, was strong proof that, at least, those
Hon. Members had ulterior objects, and that they only
viewed the present measure in reference to the influence it
would have on that which was to be gained hereafter. He
thought it could not be disputed ordenied, that this measure
Was one which could have no permanence ; and a mei=
cure of constant change must be a measure of revolution.
It had been supported upon the grounds, that it wits ne-
cessary to infuse a greater portion of democracy into the
House of Commons. This be denied. The democratic
portion of the House hail greatly increased since the Revo.
lotiom In the reigns of the first and second George, 250
Members of that House enjoyed 400 places, many of
which► were sinecures. Now, out of the whole 658 Mem-
bers, there were only 72 who held office under Govern-
ment.—(Cheers.)—He was not disposed to believe that
the Government had been swayed by other than patriotic,
although mistaken motives. But he declared that the
Ministers were innovators, and those who opposed them
truly conservators. The Ministers had agitated England
upon this question of Reform, so that there was no great
difference between them and the Hun. Member for Water-
ford, save the very objectionable manner in which that

Hon. Member knew he (Sir 11. Harding.) always thought
he had proceeded in his agitation.-_(Lou,( cheers.)—No-
thing could, in his opinion, be more mischievous than the
effect of this measure in Ireland. In that country five-
sixths of the property was Protestant, while five-sixths of
the population was Roman Catholic. How, then could
they apply their principle cf combined property and
population to Ireland, when Citholic population so far
exceedei Catholic property.—(Lothl cheers.)—lf this
Bill passed, it would be thenceforward impossible for any
Protestant to be returned for any place in Ireland, unless
he had two-thirds of the Catholic population in his favour.

—(Eirar.)—The number of vottrs in Dublin, although:
stated by an Hon. Member at three thousand, wad,
in reality, double that number. But what %could be the
eff,et of the Bill ; it would swell those 7,000 voters into
18,000, 14,000 of whom were Roman Catholics. Now,
under this altered state of things, he apiie 'led to the Hon.
Member for Waterford who would be the Member? As-
suredly not the Hon. Grntleman who now represented it.
The same thing would apply to the twenty-four boroughs of
Ireland ; all of which would infallilily return Catholic
Members. Now, at the period of the Union these twenty-
four boroughs were reserved for the purpose of protecting
and preserving Protestant property in Ireland; and in the
debates upon the occasion these boroughs were expressly
mentioned as close boroughs, and the reasons for which

they were maintained were declared. How, be asked, .was
it possible, under the new system, that Protestant talent
could be represented in that House? Take the law, for
instance, how could such men as the Hon. Member for
Drogheda hope to be returned—when nobody could so be
unless he belied his feeling, and turned apostate to his
principles ? Charges had been math., he observed, against
the late Administration, to the effect that they had main-
tained themselves in office by means of patronage. These
he indignantly repelled; the Duke of Wellington's Go-
vernment had done away with 4,050 places, which
amounted to 600,0001. a year. There was therefore, but
little patronage for the Noble Lord to act upon, or to claim
credit for reduction. If Administrations were to be
maintained by patronage, bow was it that Lord Goderich's
Government could not stand ?—( Hear, hear.) And he now
asked the Neble Lord (Althorp) if he were disposed to be
corrupt (which he was not). could lie carry on his Go-
vernment by protronage ? No ; it was a vulgar error—a
vile calumny, to say that the Duke of Wellington's Govern-
ment, or any other Government of late years, was carried
on by pitronage.—(Cheers.). It was rumoured that the
present Administration wished, by the passing of this
Bill, to annihilate Tory power—with a view that a pre-
ponderating party might exist which would be enabled to
retain them in office. He did not mean to charge them
with such a design ; but certainly this measure was, of
all others, the most calculated t 3 excite suspicions of this
kind. But in fact there was scarcely a person of pro-
perty, Whig or Tory, who did not express alarm at the
measure. If he might allude to what occurred in another
place, he would observe, that within the last twenty-four
hours one of the highest authorities in the State—an in-
dividual greatly distinguished in that House, said that be
was sorry the plan had gone so far—that he would have
been glad if the change had been less, although he feared
the country would not have been satisfied with it.—(Hear.)
This assertion wss given upon the authority of those faith-
ful means of information which they all had on their
breakfast table. He only knew it by the medium of the
gentlemen who reported the debates in Parliament. In
conclusion, he declared the measure was one of fatal mis-
fortune to Ireland, and of great injury here. He had been
called on to express his opinions by the cheers of the Hon.
Member. He never would sacrifice the dictates of his
reason, his honour, and his conscience, to fear of VT
public or popular resentment.—(Cheers.) This was a
question in which the Constitution was concerned, and
therefore, when he said he would oppose it in every stage,
by all fair means in his power—in every legitimate and
proper manner—he trusted he should not be accuse] of
factious motives. And he considered that every man who
wished well to his country. should give his opposition to
that unfortunate and fatal Bill.—(Cheers.)
The LORD ADVOCATE said, that he should have
supposed from the Hon. Me.oher's speech that this was
the tenth night of the discussion of the Bill, instead of
the first of that upon the Bill propel ly before the House.
R-volution—that ass ful and ominous sound—had been
repeatedly uttered by the Hon. Member ; but what was
positively meant by revolution ? If it meant innovation,
let them see what portion of the Constitution was un-
touched. But first kt them consider what was this Con-
stitution as decribed by all the theoretical write:s; was it
not ti e powers of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy,
happily blended and tempered together. The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), in his very seductive speech, when
expatiating in impassioned language on all the advantages
of this Constitution, hail quoted those illustrious writers
with which every student was more or less familiar; and
remarked, that although the genius of the great philosoe
phew had conceived such a form of Government, he con-
sidered it impossible in practice ; and that the sarcastic
and sententious Tacit'', had in bitterness spoken of a Con-
stitution thus prized as the perfection of Constitutions,
though be doubted its practicability ; and presuming even
that, despaired of its existence for any long period of time.
The Constitution was formed of King, Lords, and Com-
mons. Let them now see how it was affected by the
mewure. The prerogatives of the Crown and the privie
leges of the Aristocracy were left untouched, and it was ad-
mitted the Bill rendered the representation of the people
more true. The King and his power then were not directly
to he touched. The privileges of the Lords were not altered
or affected by the measure. Would it then be said, that
-the correcting fauits of the popular representation was a
-revolution? They had then to see whether the alteration
in the mode of returning Members to Parliament could he
said, not Justly, but even plausibly, to be a revolution or
alteration of the Constitution. Two separate charges had
been blended, rather skilfully, to distract the public opinion
and to throw on the measure obscurity, not light. He
wished to know if the revolutionary vice consisted in. the
disfranchisement of the boroughs, or in the alteration of
the constituency and qualification. They could not, pro-
perly, be taken together. Take the disWanchisement first,
and suppose no alteration had been made respecting the
boroughs, and that sixty or seventy of them, with five
hundred inhabitants each, continued to send representatives
to Parliament, while the great towns in the neighbour-
hood of those boroughs, averaging a population of 50,000
each, remained unrepresented. Now, he asked, would the
Learned Gentleman opposite say that there would be any
revolution or change in the Constitution by the transference
of the right of return from these boroughs to the great
towns? They would have the same number of Members
in that House and the same qualification for the electors—.
die only difference being, the electors would exist in greater
number, and the Members would have a greater variety of
interests, and interests on a large scale, to represent which
imperatively demanded their care. In this hypothetical
case would any anon think the Constitution was endan-
gered or a revolution commenced, of which no human eye
could see the end, by the transference of the right of elect-
ing representatives from decayed bornuehe to thriving
towns? He would now come to the next point ? Was
it tl e proposed change in the qualification of electors that
constituted the revolutionary vice ? This change, it was
contended, would open the way to an inroad of more de-
mocracy in the Constitution, by making the election of
Members more depend upon the lower classes of the State.
And here mark the inconsistency of the Hon. Members
who argued thus, when they, at the same time, so pite-
ously bewailed the disfranchisement of a small portion of
the very lowest class. They complained of the cutting off
of this small portion of the lowest class—yet they, at the
same moment, declared the measure would open the way
to a too great infusion of democracy. They admit that
the persons to be disfranchised are of a loWer class than
imy who gain electoral power by the,Bill, yet they will not
allow that we become safer as we approached the level. Now
the County Members, it was always understood, held a
higher place in the general estimation than the Mem-

hers for boroughs, although the qualification by which elec-
tors were entitled to vote for the county-amounted only
to 405., and although rustic persons were neither more re-
spectaide or intedig.nt th,n the inhabitants of towns.
Besides, the forty-shilling" qualification in the towns con-
(cried upon the holders the right of voting in the beet and
most honourable part of the constituency ; and therefore
it was evident that the fixing a qualification of 101. instead
of 40s. could not, in the counties, increase the democratic

influence; for no one would dream of saying that the inter-
mixture of ten pound freeholders would debase or pau-
perize a forty-shilling constituency. On the contrary,
it was plain they were giving greater respect to the
constituency in the counties, arid by no means increasing
democratic influence. Therefore, it could only he in the
boroughs the mischief was effected. But he really could
not see how democratic influence could be extended in the
lar4er boroughs by adding richer persons to those who al-
readY,bad—say a 40s. qualification. In fact, the only mode
was in the small Corporations; and could it possibly be
said that the Constitution WC° endangered by taking away
the right of nomination from close Corporations? The
great effect of the Bill would be, that wealthy and respect-
able men would be let into the right of voting instead of
Corporations, that were neither rich nor noble. As to
what had been urged respecting the nominees of the close
boroughs, he observed that he would not alvance to the
opinion that they hadk!en alwk s spies in a hostile camp—
really the representaives of the Aristocracy and Crown—
but condescending to sit there under the humble gall) of
repres.n'zllves of the peop.e. and ever voting for the main-
tmunce of aristocratic privileges and not for the advantage
of the nation. The Right Hon. Baronet had made a list
of some 20 or 30 great naMes in a period of 40 years ; but
he regarded the proportion as by no means great, consider-
ing the number of unhonoured names that had been in the
sante space of time placed upon the list of the House of
Commons as representatives of these boroughs. The
truth was, these nominees did not form a corps d' elite
they were not Knights Templars in disguise—they were
not the champions in that House of the Crown and the
Aristocracy—they
did n come in as the alloy to demo-
cratic influence—they did not stand forth to stay the tide
of democracy, ;,for the close boroughs had sent in the
greatest agitators. The aristocracy did not, like the an-
cient Nobbsse of France, enjoy privileges galling and op-
pressive, and offensive to the people—privileges which de-
graded and threw the great body of the nation into a vexa-
tious inferiority. The prerogative of the Crown was not
of a nature to press heavy on the people, and therefore the
Crown and the Aristocracy needed nut the support of the
nominees of close boroughs, nor were they defended by
them-. No, they did not represent either the order of the
Nobles or the disposition of the King in that House, but
they represented the passions and prejudices, and the ad-
verse and corrupt motives of a certain number of indivi-
duals. Who were the Peers?—They were gentlemen

who were dignified with hereditary titles—they exercised
a separate legislative power, and it was their duty accord-
ing to the scheme of the Constitution, to defend alike the
CroWn from the encroachment of the democracy, and the
people from an oppressive exercise of the influence of the
Crown. The Members for these boroughs were neither re-
quired to fulfil this duty, nor did they in fact undeitake any
such task. They were not placed there to defend the preroga-
tives of the Crown, but were in fact persons who were in-
tended to maintain the power of the. Alinisters.—(Hear,
hear.)—These boroughs did not represent any particular
order or any one of the three estat,s, and they ought not
—they represented individual interest, and influence, end
caprice, and they obstructed the entrance into that House
of the real representatives of the'people. The nature and
object of these popular representatives was much mistaken.
They were not sent there in the spirit of a wild demo-
cracy to overturn or weaken the rights of the Crown and
the Aristocracy, but with their knowledge and spirit to
represent in that House the knowledge and spirit of their
constituents, who were taught that they formed part of
a Monarchy adorned with an ancient Peerage, end sus-
tained and directed by the magnificence of a simple ex-
ecutive. The duty of the House of Commons was to re-
sist, on the one hand, the advances of an Oligarchy, and on
the other the progress of an executive tawards despotism ;
but they would fail in the discharge of at least the first of
these duties, if their members were nominated by one of
the bodies upon which it was their object to act as a check
—or if the majority of their number was under the influ-
ence of the House of Peers. That House did not inter-
fere with the rights and privileges of the Peers, by send-
;rig their nominees into the other House of Parliament
to modify their unmitigated aristocracy; and equally
were the Members of the Commons House of Parlia-
ment entitled to be free kern the influence of that
aristocratical body. It was thus that he had been taught
to understand the principles of the British Constitution,
and those principles appeared to him likely to he best se-'
cured by the measure which was now under the consi-
deration of Patti Intent. He should now take the oppor
tunity of making one remark on the supposed inde-
pendence of those Members who sat in that House for
close boroughs. He should say nothing of the obvious
objection to the perfect freedom from controul of those
persons who called themselves the representatives of the
people, nor of the necessity and justice of the people pos-
sessing some degree of influence over the conduct of the
men they chose as their representatives; but be should
rake that opportunity of declaring that these borough
Members, with but a few exceptions, were, as the prac-
tice of that House demonstrated, infinitely more under
trammels than were the representatives of the most popu-
lous places in the empire.—(Hear, Leer, bear. )-11e had
great reliance on the mass of the people, and for that rea-
son he did not fear, as some Hon. Member did, a mea-
sure that would in same degree give power and influence
to the mass of the people. He repeated, that he had great
reliance on them ; arid he would tell the Hou-e that if

they did not rely on the body of the people they would
find themselves miserably deceived and mistaken ; and
that if it was true that there was a taint on the character
of the people, that taint' must be removed by instruc-
tion, and could not be got rid of by those precautions,
even the mechanism of which had not been explained to
them, and which, in any time of danger and necessity,
would be found but a cobweb barrier to the progress of
those they were intended to oppose.
Sir R. PEEL said, that whatever were the merits of
the speech of the Learned Lord, and he was not in the
least interested in denying those merits, among the num-
ber would not be found that of recalling their attention to
the subject of that night's debate, which was the nature of
the Bill for the Reform of the Irish representation.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) The Learned Lord admitted that he
had not the least possible knowledge of Ireland ; that he
was utterly incapable of forming a judgment as to any one
of the clauses of the Bill ; but then he was resolved skil-
fully to interpose en this debate a powerful argument upon
that which was of much greater importance then the sub-
ject immediately under di-emssion, namely, on the tendency
of the general measure of Parliamentary Reform. He
quarrelled not with the Learned Lord for using this op-
portunity for such a purpose, even after the nine nights'
debate which the House had bad upon the subject. The
Learned Lord curiously enough had differed from those
who supported the Bill on account of its increasing the
influence of the mass of the people, when he said that
a chief merit of-the Reform measure in his eyes was,
that it would diminish the influence of the demo-
cracy, by adding to the aristocratic array in that House.
The Learned Lord, however, had not favoured the House
with any very distinct account of the mode by which such
a change was to be effected. Some Hon. Members, in
describing the measure, had spoken of it as revolutionary
—he (Sir R. Peel) would not use such a term, for he did
not wish to gain that petty advantage which was some-
times to be obtained by the use of epithets; but he was
fully prepared to support that opinion which those who
used that phrase meant to express, namely, that the ulti-
mate effect of the measure was to produce a most exten-
sive change---a change which, in fact, amounted to the
creation of a new Constitution. He would now see if that
conclusion was not justified. What was this measure?
Whate would be its effects? In the first place it would dis-
turb the relation which now existed between the number
of representations of the three different parts of the Em-
pire.—(Hear ) The Bill added to the number of repre-
sentatives fOr Scotland--it added to the number for Ire-
land—it added somewhat to the number for Wales ; but
it materially diminished the number of representatives for
England.—(Hear, hear.) While it changed this relation
of numbers, it changed 'also in every county of England,
Scotland, and Ireland, and the' nature of the constituted
body. It changed too the limits of almost every town and
city in the empire, and the nature of their constituency.
There were only fifty cities that were not altered in their
limits and in their constituency ; but great as these changes
were, there was still this greater change that, for the fu-
ture, the Bill selected one class of voters for the whole
empire, with the same sympathies for good.or for bad, and
liable throughout to the same impulses, and the whole re-
presentation of England, in ten years hence, would depend
upon this class. He would not say whether this was a
revolutionary measure or not, but he must confess that it
was a measure which would produce very great changes,
and the effect of which lie did not, and could not, know,
nor even anticipate; If they had done all they had omitted
to do, it would be iinpossible for him to know the eff•ct it
would produce ; this, however, he did know—that they
had gone far to destroy those old associations and pre-
judices that bad been the safeguard of this country, that
had supported it under difficulties, that had afforded it
strength and hope to cope with 'all disadvantages, and that
had fortified the feeble contrivances all imian institations. He
repeated-that it was impossible to know the consequences
of a measure that would go to effect such a destruction.
The Learned Lord might disregard the prophecies of those
who opposed the measure, and might siy that they who
made them bad no grounds to go upon—(Hear, from the
Ministerial Benches)—bot be asked what security there
was in the principle of the measure that would render it
permanent. The proposers of this measure were, indeed,
not " bit-by.bit" Reformers—(A laueh)—they Would
not be satisfied but with a -chati,jhe of a considerable effect ;
but then they said that that Change would only be made
once for all. He, on the contrary, denied that this sup-
posed permanency was the principle of their measure.
They-struck off sixty-two Members at once ; they disposed
in another way of 'forty-seven other Members, and then
they affected to say that this system was permanent. But
permanent it could sled be. The favourers of the measure
talke I of its permanence as if they did not- recollect that
there was still one great point which the Bill did not em-
brace, and which had many supporters. The petitioners
in favour of the measure, acted upon the advice of the
lion. Member for .Middlesex, and concealed the demand.
for the ballot. The exact words were suppressed in the
paragraph, but could the House doubt that the advice in-
tended to he given was Say nothing of the ballot at.
present—keep that point quite quiet. Get this new in-
strutnent, and you will. have a great advantage :n after-
wards extorting all the others.--( Hear? bear.)" Change
was the principle of the Bill ; and in two years hence,
with what arguments drawn from the principle of this Bill
could the Legislature- answer the claims that would be
made upon them from places, the inhabitants of which
thought themselves entitled to representatives. He would
take one instance—Bury, in Lancashire, the place of his na-
tivity. He wished not to introdeceanything personal into this
discussion—he had no connection now with that place beyond
that natural affection which all men entertained for the place
of their birth, and that with which their earliest recollec-
tions were associated.—(Hear, hear.) two years hence
he wished to know what was the enswer that could be
given to the inhabitants of Bury, if they were to claim
representatives—if they were to say that no prescription
had been allowed in favour .of the boroughs in 1831,
when the rule of population alone was acted on, and when
the borough of Melton was saved
.from disfranchisement
solely by the 'accident of the ladies of that town having
been more than usually prolific in 1921.—(A laugh.)_
The fact, he stated, was perfectly true—three ladies had
had the good fortune to present their husbands with twins,
and that happy circumstance saved the,plective fr inchise
of the town.—(Laughter.) That was, so far as he under-
stood, the only ground for the preference.—(Laughter,)
Now, if this principle of population was that on which
the Bill was to proceed--if that principle was reary to
be tarried into effect, he wished to know whether Bury,

with 36,000 peoPle, would' rest satisfied without the pri-
vilege of having representatives, when Gateshead, with
only a population of 12,000, was to send Members to
Parliament? When the inhabitants of Bury came t
state the fact of the number of their population, would
the Parliament refuse to make the change they required ?
If they did, on what. principle could they make the re-
fusal, especially when they had the list of the 62 reduced
Members to draw upon.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned
Lord asked, what objection there was. to give to the
great mass of the people the power .of forming the
constituency of the country, aad had stated, that the
knowledge now spread among them was a guarantee
that they would not abuse such a power. The Learned
Lord stated that this Bill wa4, in fac', a restoration
of the representation ; hut would the Learned Lord re•
store the prerogative of the Crown—the veto which it had
formerly exercised ? That prerogative was formerly iridis-
pitted. When they had established over that House an
overpowering controul of the popular voice, did the
Learned Lord think that lie should beahleto draw from the
ancient armouries of the Constitution that rusty weapon with
which the Crown had been used to contend in defence of
its prerogatives.—(Hear.) He assured the Learned Lord
that the prerogative of the Crown could not be put on
the same footing as formerly, and that was an objection to
this measure which went to increase the power of the
democratical branch of the Constitution, without increas-
ing in a similar manner the power of the other two
branches; nay, indeed, without affording them the
same advantages which they formerly possessed. He re-
peated, that the House did not possess the power to place
in the hands of the Crown that instrument, which, in
times of comparative ignorance and barbarism, had been
intended to be used as a check and controul upon the po-
pular voice. But that was not all, for the power possessed
by a popular assembly was always tending to produce its
own increase, and he defied the Learned Lord to show one

instance in which this constant t-ndency was not distinctly
manifested ; and he (Sir It. Peel), notwithstanding all
that had been said about this measure not putting the
House of Peers into danger, was convinced that the Leat ned
Lord would find it difficult to maintain, even by sound ar-
guments, the right of that House against a popular assem-
bly that, with increased powers, should deem it fit to dis-
pute them.--(Hear.) When he mentioned the French re-
volution, he did not wish to use it as .a vulgar object of ter-
ror, or to refer to its worst and most terrible days; but he
alluded to it in order to show how likely a popular assem-
bly was to insist on the extension of its own privileges, while
it denied those that had been uniformly exercised by an-
other body. The National Assemb!y contained, probably,
some men of as high talents as had ever lived.' Its mem •
bars, at the time of which he was about to speak, seemed
actuated by the purest motives ; and yet what had they
done? The Count Alirabeau was a member of that as-
sembly, and at that time he had not connected himself
with the Crown, or brought his patriotism into suspicion.
A question had arisen as to the right of the Crown to de-

. _
dare war and to make peace, and Mirabeau suggested an
opinion that that was a right which was vested in the
Crown. He was immediately overwhelmed with the
reply of Barnave, who argued that the right was one of
the utmost import ince, and ought not to be entrusted to
one who might be an idiot or a child ; and so great was
the effect of the reply, that on the following-day Mirabeau
had to come down and complain of the suspicions which
the bare suggestion of his opinion
.had thrown on his pa-
triotism. But he might refer even to a better authority
in proof of hi• assertion. What were the impressions at
this moment existing as to the course which the House of
Lords would pursue on this subject? Every one took it
for granted that that [-louse, constituted even as it was at
present, would represent the popular voice, and that if this
measure passed the House of Commons, the House of
Lords had better take care how they interfered to stop its
• progress.—(Hear, hear.)—He knew that it had been said
the influence of the democracy in the properly popular
assembly did not necessarily infer the d,struction of a
more aristocratic assembly; and the Senate of America
had been appealed to as a proof of the assertion.—
The difference, however, between them and the House
of Peers in this country, was great, for the Senate (Pc:-
rived their existence from the same source as the House of
Representatives, arid was there ore able to oppose a check
to the deliberations of the representative body, which the
House of Lords would not be able to oppose to the Corn-
tnons, when they became expressly the organs of the po-
pular will.—(Hear, hear.)--But the Learned Lord
thought that the influence of the aristocracy would not be
,:iminished. Friendly ties might still exist between the

landlord and the tenant, and it might be possible that the
latter would adopt the opinions and act upon the wishes
of the former ; but if that was the case,
.what became of
that rule which declared the interference of the Peers un-
constitutional? He was afraid that-this was one of those
cases in which " the satire destroyed the syllogism, and
the argument was lost in the vituperation."--4Hear, bear,
and a laugh. )—Some Hon. Members had said that this
measure would increase aristocratical, others that it would

in
lvecrreeansea,daesmiotcwraatc
sisal influence.
upposed,in These
,ow,ient wwtitho aeacssiiertias
other.na
All depended on the question of-time. It was probab'e
that in quiet times the aristocratical influence might be
successfully exerted over the 101. tenants. When no tem-
pest had arisen—when no storm shook the Stateff—grati-
rude for the new privileges conferred might enable all
things to go on well between the two parties; but when
the storm arose—when the whole influence of the Press
was directed to create popular excitement—when it made
its continued appeals to the popular feelings of the voters
_.of that class of Men perhaps the least aide to understand
the: machinery of Government, and the most liable to be
influenced in their judgment upon it—in such times as
those, the popular principle of this Bid would act with
overpowering effect against the interests of the landlord-,
and the vessel of the State would be swamped by the
hurricane, for which we had made no preparation.
(Heir, hear, hear.)—Thcse consequences would not hap-
pen perhaps in peaceable times; but when the wave of
popular opinion ran high, what were the mounds that
would be able to resist it ?—(Hear, hear, Lear.)—He
would now say a few words with respect to the represen-
tation of the boroughs. It was true, as had been stated,
that men of small talents had been frequently returned for
these boroughs; but. when he-read the list of twenty-five
eminent, names, which in forty years had been admitted
to that House by the means of those boroughs, he did so
to show the arnoune, of benefit obtained by the facility
thus afforded to men of talent to find their way into this
House. In that list he tiad ornitted,Thy mistake and ac-
cident, and from no other,motive whatever, the name of
Mr. Ricardo, which he was proud to' be able to add to
those be had befle mentioned-7(11cm; hear. ) Ele had
heard with delight the speech of the Hari: and Learned
Gentleman; and when he did to, he felt in the enjoyment
he then received, some compensation for the uneasy mo-
ments which the Bill that hifl placed the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman in that House had occasioned
to him by its introduction. He felt pleased in a double
point of view; for not only was he gratified with having
forw-rded a measure which admitted the House to the
benefit of the exercise of the talentsof the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, but lie was also satisfied to see those talents
withdrawn trorn popular agitation and excitement, and
devoted to a cause of which they were truly worthy.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) That House was the proper theatre
for their displaying, and he- rejoiced to believe that
they would not go back •to an arena in which they
could • only be exercised • with a fatal influence on
the country, if they were exercised with a view to forward
the severance of the ties that now exist between the two
kingdoms.—(Hear.) He trusted that such talents would
not again be exercised on petty matters of Dublin police,
but would be directed to acquire that distinction they
must demand through their admission to the Imperial
Parliament. When, hoWever, he was thus gratified by
the exercise of the talents of the Hon. and Learned I
Gentleman, he could not but recollect that he saw in the I
as

Hon. and Learned Gentleman a man who had been dis-
regarded by the populous town, and who had found his
way into that House throisgh the rotten borough of Mil-
bourne Port.—(l-lear, hear.) When the country should
be divided into 300 or 400 districts, be wished to know by
what means a man without aristocratical influence, but
possessed of the talents and acquirements of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, could hereafter acquire admission into
Parliament. He spoke particul trly of the natives of Ire-
land, who were panting for.-admisskn into, Parliament.
Did the Han. and Learned Gentleman think that he could,
before his Irish constituents, breathe that sincere an I 'ele-
quent prayer for the prosperity of "ngland with. which
he concluded his speech the other night? He feared, too,
that the Han. and Learned Gentleman, if this Irish Bill
was passed, might have in that country no other means
of contending with a rival candidate' but the mode of agi-
tation, to gain the hearts and the votes of the electors;
and if no third course was open to him, it was difficult to
conceive a greater practical evil tban would thus be
occasioned. He should reserve what more he had to say
upon the principle of the Bill until the second read-
ing; observing, however, that if the great change of 1828
were again to make, he should be prepared to make it,
although enforced by hard nece,sity, and fully con-
templating all its consequences. The constituent body in
Ireland had thus been practically changed; and before
more was done, he thought that the experiment of what
had been effected ought to be allowed its full operation.—
To open the franchise, and to give it to the middle classes,
was neither mere nor less than to transfer power from one

Itedy to another. Cod grant that the change tniglt' e
latnefieial ; but the moment it aa: proposed, he saw that
the effect of it would be to apportion power between the
Sovereign and the physical" force of the kingdom. Ile did
tut say that actual revolution would ensue, but the altera-
tion was so great and violent as to amount both practically
and morally to a revolution. The danger was unques-
64nably incurred of a greater revolution than had ever yet
occurred in our history. At the same time, he did not
conceal from himself that to throw out the Bill would head
ta continual struggles; but the strugglea would not be less
if the measure were passed, inasmuch as attempts would
constantly be made to obtain more. They were inevitable ;
hut to use the words of Mr. Fox, he should be a traitor to
his King, to his country, and to his own conscience, if he
did not prefer the maintenance of the Constitution to giving
:stay to popular opiiiion—if lie did not prefer the protec-
tion of the real interests end privileges of the- people to sub.
mission to the vehemence of that popular excitement which
had been made one of the chief arguments in favour of the
measure.
Lord PALMERSTON observed that his Right Hon.
Friend Lad unexpectedly made one of his most successful
addresses ; but much as he admired his Right Hon.
Friend's talents, he (Lord Pahnerston) must say that he
had excited his attention and disappointed his hopes. Ha
• had argued with great ability, and had even pressed into
his service, all that had been advanced by the most un-
eompromisine enemies of Refortn. He bad contended not
only against the particular measure, but against Reform in
ftenerala course somewhat inconsistent with that which
his Right Hon. Friend had pursued on the former ocea.
Ii then opposed the Bill, on the ground that the
change was too extensive ;• hut he had, admitted that he
would support a moderate Reform. After his speech of to.
night; be (Lord Palinterstdo) kneW not towhat degree of
Reform his Right Ifori•Friend was prepared to consent.
Ht had adopted the highest -View of the case that had
yet been taken, and had maintained that the admission of
eopyholdets and leaseholders was in itself revolutionary.
To a certain extent it was true ; it changed the consti-
tuency of the country, but it was nor, on that account, re-
volutionary. He wondered that it had never occurred to
his Right Hon, Friend " that he had himself proposed a
measure to effect a change of the most extensive character.
He had talked Of the sacred nature of vested rights in beau-
tiful language, better calculated for the late debate than
for the preSent, and had especially directed himself to an-
swer the speech of the Noble and Learned Lord Advocate.
He (Lord Palmerston) begged to congratulate him on the
safe delivery of his twin-etuch "hie address might fitly be
termed, attached as it bad been tto the argument of the
Noble and Learned Lord. When his Right Hon. Friend
said that ancient prejudices were to be toothed tenderly,
and ancient privileges protected strenuously, he (Lord P.)
wished to know on what ground he could defend the die-
franchisement of 170,000 forty-shilling freeholders in
Ireland ? No doubt the answer would be, that it was ne-
cessary for the public advantage, and td pacify the public
mind. How, throe could his Right Hoe. Friend blame
the present Government for proceeding upon the s one
principle? Altosen of hing Standing required remedy—
that remedy was afforded' by •the Bill of Reform, and the
change had received the-undivided and hearty approbation
of the country. Ministers were of opinion that the exist-
ing system of representation was not in accordance with
the ancient laws of the country, and did not belong to its
institutions, properly underatood ; and they hail, accord--
ingly proposed to change it, and to restore the genuine
practice of the Constitution. In his alarm at re-
volution, his Right Honourable Friend had enu-
merated the number of towns, as well as counties,
which would enjoy the change, and he had complained
that as a Committee of the Privy Council would be con-
cerned in making the alteration, the measure must neees-
eerily be revolutionary. Of all queitions from which
revolution could come, he (Lord Palmerston) least dreaded
it from the Privy Council.(flear, hear.)—ln arguing
this
were question,
theprops
lt it
and a d
sbuepepnozuotaftedatehactrtobwene.loseTn eo boroughsesaenr
tgb
u_
e
f
talent of the Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded upon
rthouegzusprwpoesrietiott tfiiaetidths,
allnlde my
voters
of whoth :
Government
forve close
the day ; but he (Lord Palmerston) begged to ask whea •
this-
they the fact was really so, and
tributed as much on one side as on the other?--(Cheers
from the Opposition benches.)—He understood those
cheers,prev ew:laitt thheey
had advanced.
notveil
caends.wer s
Neither
nor
any other Administration derived peculiar advantages
from the existence of Scotch boroughs, while the interests
of the public were most materially injured. His Right •
Hon. Friend had supposed that a state of things would
arise in this country similar to that which in Ireland had
preceded the emancipation of the Roman Catholics. If
such a state of things should arise, it would with him
(Lord Palmerston) be an additional reason for dasiring
the proposed change. The House would then be able
more completely and effectually to controul any temporary
excitement. His Hight Honourable Friend had ad-
verted to the French Convention, but he (Lord Pal-
merston) contended that there was nu analogy between
-the two cases. It would appear as if his Right 11c..
nourable Friend thought that the theory of the Consti-,
tution was never to be brought into practice, and
that the only safety for the State was to be found in a
departure from that Constitution which had been praised
by all writers. The French Revolution and this measure
had no more resemblance than there would be between the
acts of a madman and of an individual in the full posses-
sion of all his ftculties. His Right lion. Friend had
argued that the Reform Bill would desLt oy the influenee
of the House of Lords, while many who bud voted with.
him had done so avowedly on the ground that another
species of influence would be given to the Aristoetacy.
One argument, in fact, destroyed the other, so that Han.
Members nii Alt take which they pleased, but could only
take one. His Right Hon. Friend had also, with his
usual good feeling and good taste, bet,towed high praise
upon the speech of an H. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Stteil), and had remarked, that it was a proof of the ad-
oeuldbohreout,gethros,retdlr
atitthhoeutgahlenlites
ovafnatnagiensLiftthlueaslysstoemgoiffted could
had failed in his election as the representative of a county.
He (Lord Palmerston) drew another les.on irons the saute
facets: he applied the argument to the middle classes of
the community, who, until now, had been excluded from
their fair share in the government of the count ry. —( Hear,
hear.)—At present they might be tent-red the tools of
every pernicious; agitator, and their disaffection; should it
ever appear, might be employed for the most dangerous pur •
poses ; but let them lei,tlealt with as the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had dealt with the Roman Catholics, by passing
the measure of Reform, and it would produce confidence in
time great mass of the people, and convcrt discontent to
attachment.

Sir R. PEEL, in explanation, disclaimed having ob-
jected to the admission of copyholders as part of the two-
stituency of the country. Although the late Government
had been tanned out on the Civil List, yet he was aware
that on the following night there would prohably have
been such a manifestation of opinion on the question of
Reform, that Ministers could not have retained their
places, unless they bad to a certain degree conformed to it.
As a private individual, therefore, he had been prep 'rest
to enter into a compromise on the subject. After the
course taken by the present servants of the Crown—after
the use that had been made of his Majesty's name—(H ar,
hear)—the nature of the opposition was entirely changed.
—(Cries of " spoke, spoke.)—He was not aware that he
had gone beyond what the usual courtesy of the House al_
lowed f expl nation.

Mr. GOIILBURN adverted to the argument of the
Noble Lord (Palmerston), that the inetsure was not re-
volutionary because power was given to the Privy
Council. He would take the word reVolutiGn.,ry in
the snore moderate sense of a great and important
change. It could not be said that the change was
not great and important, when it gave a Committee of
the Privy Council authority to inquire into the state and
population of every county 'and town of the kingdom, and
at their will to add or diminish the number of repre-
sentatives. Even with regard to the city. of London,
that Committee might at any time direct that adjoining
parishes should be included within its limits, and
vote for its representatioa.—(Hear.)--Such an extra
ordinary power seemed to him a great deterioration of the
present system. It was sail, that the close boroughs were
equally distributed on both sides of the House, and admit-
tmg the tact, there was no doubt that the Committee or
the Privy Council would be under the influence of the Go-
vernment of the day, and would interfere with every town
in the kingdom just as might suit the purposes of that
Government. Looking, therefore, only at the proposed
increase of the influence of the Crown, the measure of
Reform was most dangerous and objectionable. The
Noble Lord had vindicated the present Ministers by the
conduct of the late Cabinet on the subject of the Catholic
claims, forgetting that the alteration of tto franclfse in
Ireland could not warrant the violent proceeding now re-
commended, which would hereafter be drawn into prece-
dent by every man who wished to introduce perilous it no-
cations. The vote by ballot and universal- suffrage might
thus be enforced. The Noble Lord opposite seemed to
say, that if they bad had a Reformed Parlikunent, they.
would not have found so much difficulty as had:been expe
rienced in carrying the Catholic question. S...;trJudging'
from the petaions presented against that measure,
at
17
yia
d ,ers a
thney
tchoig b
nnsi d e ruts,
po
t i onp
uo
r i. b
larlit was ee
ry
a t,hretasihn
ldnost one
yo,teli