The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Jr/Li, 21.
The Marquis of TIIOMOND presented a petition from
the merchants and certain other inhabitauts of the city of
Cork, against the removal of the naval station from that
port.
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a petition
from the clergyman and other inhabitants of Southborough,
in Kent, praying for an alteration in the Beer Act.
Mr. Britton, from the Trinity House, presented an ac-
count of the Pilots' Fund.
Lord PLUNKETT and the Marquis of DowarstriaE pre-
sented petitions from Ireland, praying for the continuation
of the Irish Education Grants.
The Assessed Taxes' Bill and the Militia Ballots' Bill
were read a third time and passed.
Several Pt ivate Bills were brought up from the Commons.
Lord TEYNHAM moved for a return of the amount
of capsicum imported during the last seven years.
Ordered.
FRAUDULENT DEBTORS' BILL.
Lord WYNFORD moved that the third reading of the
Fraudulent Debtors' Bill be postponed till Tuesday next.
Lord PLUNKETT thought it would be necessary to
make considerable alterations in the Bill before it ought to
be allowed to pass. There was one point which he parti-
cularly recommended to the attention of the Noble and
Learned Lord who had brought in the Bill. When a
person went abroad, either for amusement or from what-
ever motive, he was liable, upon its being found as a fact
that he staid abroad to avoid his creditors, to be subjected
to the Bankrupt Laws. Now he could not but think that
this was very bard, and rather unreasonable. To be sure
there was a notice to be given in the Gazette, and at his
last place of abode in this country, but that was a notice
that might never reach him. Then he might he called upon
to surrender, and if he did not surrender within the
limited time, he was liable to be prosecuted as a felon,
and to be sentenced to transportation. All these pro-
ceedings might take place without any actual notice to
the party to be affected. Another circumstance deserving
of particular consideration was, the effect which this Bill
would have on creditors. A gentleman wishing to raise
money en his estate, gave the person advancing the money
a judgment as a security en which the lender might issue
his eleyit, and take of the land what was sufficient for the
payment of his debt. But if the gentleman should be
made subject to the Bankrupt Laws, then the estate would
be brought into the general fund, and the judgment cre-
ditor would lose his preference, and be put on the same
footing as the simple contract creditors ; at least such was
the law in Ireland. So that if a man lent one hundred
thousand pounds upon this species of security, and on the
ground of the estate being liable for the full amount of the
debt, he might, by the operation of this Bill, lose nearly
all his money. This would be the consequence of sub-
jecting a person, not a trader, to the Bankrupt Laws, and
that merely by a constructive notice.—(Earl Grey, " There
is no question before the House.").—He was aware that
there was no question before the House, and only threw out
these hints for further consideration.
The Earl of ELDON was rather disposed from feeling
to support the Bill. But still it was a subject of immense
importance, and one which ought to be well considered
before the Bill should be allowed to pass. The Bill might
very greatly affect the property of tenants in tail, and in-
terfere with the jurisdiction of Courts of Equity when
called upon to protect young men from the consequences
of their own indiscretion. Courts of Equity were called
upon so to interfere much more frequently than Courts of
Law ; and if this jurisdiction were taken away, many im-
prudent young men would have their prospects for life de-
stroyed without remedy. The subject required a great
deal of consideration. Then, supposing the Bill were to
be passed by way of experiment, and its duration to be
limited to a short period, it might be worth while to move
to have the record of the case of " The King against
O'Connell " and others, laid on the table, in order to show
how necessary it was, that, when Bills were passed in that
way, some provision should be made with respect to pro-
ceedings commenced, but not terminated before the expira-
tion of the Acts.
Lord PLUNKETT observed, that in some of these Acts
clauses d been inserted, providing that where proceed-
ings wee commenced before the expiration of the Acts,
they should be carried on to the conclusion, notwithstand-
ing the expiration. There was no such clause in the Act
to which the Noble and Learned Earl had alluded, and
that was a principal reason fur the decision of the Irish
Judges.
The Earl of ELDON did not find any fault with that
decision, but certainly a general rule ought to be adopted
with respect to these cases.
Lord WYNFORD said, that in England the judgment
would be binding on the land notwithstanding the bank.
ruptcy. But, as it appeared that the Noble and Learned
Lord had thought that some material alterations ought to
be made in the Bill, be moved fur the postponement of the
third reading till Tuesday.
The third reading of the Bill was accordingly fixed for
Tuesday.
TITHES' COMPOSITION BILL.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved that the
Tithes' Composition Bill be committed.
Lord TEYNIIAM observed, that it was a subject of the
greatest importance. The tithe system was one which
called for very material alteration and improvement, and
the country expected that such an improvement should be
made without delay. He was not satisfied that this Bill
would answer the purpose. He would not, however, op-
pose ite going into the Committee ; but unless it under
event considerable alterations, he would oppose it on the
third reading.—the Bill was than committed.
On the first clause being read,
Lord WYNFORD moved as an amendment, that the
provisions of it should extend to lay impropriators, as well
as to ecclesiastical persons.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY expressed his
hope, that if this amendment were to be adopted, the
Noble and Learned Lord would lend his assistance to get
it adopted to the Bill, without injuring its object and
progress.
Lord WYNFORD promised his assistance either in or
out of the House.
The Earl of ELDON did not think that the Bill was
one which could pass in its present shape. There was
no provision made in it for determining, in cases of
moduses, whether there was a modus or not ; or
whether the moth's, if one had existed, was or was not
a legal modus. It sometimes happened that very delicate
questions arose, as to whether certain lands were or were
not titheable ; and sotnetitnes, persons who had not paid
tithe fur their lan Is, were not able to tell the reason why
they had paid none; and yet they might bare good right
of exemption. A case had occurred in the course of his
profe,sional life, where a man pleaded en exemption, but
could not tell the reason why he had not paid tithes ; and,
after an investigation of six years, it was found that be him-
self was the owner of the tithes, and that the Ecclesiastical
rector had nothing t do wills them. Then there was
ne provision made in this Bill for cases where com-
positions real had been entered into, in which cases
lands had been given in lieu of tithes. Those were
material defects in the Bill ; and as to a barrister of
five years' standing deciding in the cases wi.ich he had
mentioned. lie would not be sufficient for the purpose, even
although he were a schoolmaster besides--begging pardon
of his Noble and Learned Friend the Lord Chancellor.---(The
Lord Chancellor bowed.) The person to whom he had
alluded, as pleading an exemption for which he could not
show the grounds, had found at last that the ancestor
under whom he claimed bad purchased the lands from a
grantee of Henry VIII., and that the lands hail belonged
to a monastery, and were, therefore, exempt from the pay-
ment of tithes. There was no proper provision in the
Bill for settling difficult questions of this kind, and cases
of compositions real, where lands bad been gives in lieu of
tithes, were in the same predicament. He could not
help thinking that the Bill must receive much more con-
sideration than had yet been bestowed upon it. Tit all its
provisions it seemed to be extremely deficient, and unless
it were thoroughly recast, it would be impossible for their
Lordships to give it their assent.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said, that if the
Noble and Learned Lord opposite had explained to him
(the Archbishop) some months ago the ohj-ctions which
he had that evening stated to their Lordslaips, lie (the
Archbishop) would have been so governed by such an opi-
nion, that he should have thrown the Bill into the fire.—
(Hear.) He agreed in every word with the Noble and
Learned Lord, as tar as 114 (the Archbishop's)
dexperience
in those matters allowed him to form a
(Hear.) But in this respect he was compelledju
from the Noble and Learned Lord—he .coelli nut possibly ,
see what connexion all that the Learned Lord tad said
had with the Bill.—(Hear.) The only object of the Bill
was to provide a means of paying the clergy the value of
the tithes which they now receive, different from the mode
in which they have hitherto been received. In devising
a a
new mode of payment, it was necessary also to provide
new means of enforcing that payment. but it was by no
means necessary that, in an act providing fur an assess-
ment of tithes, there should be an enumeration of the va-
xious kinds of titheable produce. For his part, lie (the
Archbishop) could desire nothing more earnestlydthantltihat
the Noble and Learned Lord should devise a
mo .e for
ut an end t till
p
settlement of all disputes. If he could
differences on the subject of titheable produce, be would
confer the greatest benefit upon the country.—(Hear.)