The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-06 00:00:00

great respect for the opinion of the Judge Advocate, yet
lie should like to see the case that was laid before him,
and on which that opinion was founded-4 Hear, hear,
from the Opposition bet4imo—and he hoped that that
also *6uld be laid before the Ilomie. if there wtis a fegi-,
timate war between the two countries, then certainly
ship was a good prize of war; but he doubted whether
there was a legitimate war between France and
Portugal. There was no declaration of war, and
Portugal had done nothing against France by way
of retaliation, and there had been no signs of war.
He had not yet done with the French Admiral ; for after
this capitulation of the 12th of July, he had demanded
another convention. Toe French Admiral was not satisfied
with the statements published in tome of the Portuguese
Newspapers, respecting the candid ms of the convention
of the 12th ofJuly. Now that was scarcely a fair ground
of complaint against the Government, because a full wive-
ment of the conditions hail been inserted in the Official
Gaiette. But the provincial Newspapers, in which the
erroneous stat ment had been publist ed, had no connec-
tion with the Government ; althot gli he ci rtaitily would
admit that they were under its cot trout, as well as all the
Newspapers of the kingdom. These erroneous statements
were the only grounds on which a new convention was re-
quired by the French Admiral. The convention took
place on the 22d of July, -and the King then undertook
that the whole of the conditions al o old be faithfully pub-
lished in all the Newspapers. He would cow proceed to
a subject which was worthy the retention of their Lord-
ship*, and was well calculated to make even the Noble
Earl opposite himself look carefully about him—(Hear)
—and here, he could not help declaring his wonder, that
Members of his Majesty's Government should have asserted
that the French Admiral bad made no attempt to obtain
commercial advantages prejudicial to the interests of this
`country. He should take care, however, that the
country and • the Government should not remain
under that mistake. He had there the proof, in the
words of the French Admiral himself, who said, that—
" Whereas the commerce of France liad been hitherto un-
fairly treated by Portugal, in comparison with that of
England, he was desirous that it should be now under-
stood, that whenever a commercial treaty was entered into
between France and Portugal, the commercial relations of
the former with the latter should be placed on the same
footing as those of the most favoured nations." What,
then, could be said of the King, if he accorded to a pro-
position so much at variance with the interests of the
oldest ally and the best friend of Portugal? And yet,
could lie be complained of if he did so ? Had he ever
known any thing of our treaties with that Government,
except the advantages which they gave to us, and which
we always exacted under them ? That convention of the
22d consisted of eight articles, to the fourth of which be
had now come, in which the Portuguese Minister, Vis-
count Santarem, replying to the French Admiral, says,
that " in case of a fir tire treaty between France and Por-
tugal, the latter would be ready to treat on tonditions
equally advantageous to both countries." Now certainly
he (Lord Aberdeen) would admit that there was nothing
in that article so disadvantageous to this country as the
proposition of the French seemed to contetnplate.—(Hear,
hear.) The next article to which he wished to call the
attention of their Lordships, was that which stipulated that
French subjects in Portugal should be placed under the
protection of a Judge Conservator. That was a privilege
of which he thought it scarcely possible to understand why
one free State should allow it to the subjects of another.
But yet it was a privilege which English subjects pos-
sessed in Portugal, and, therefore it was claimed also on
the part of France. There was another article by which
the Government of Portugal was prevented from repairing
the fortresses until after the French fleet should have de-
parted from the Tagus. Here he would again ask, were
the two Governments at war or peace ? If they were at
peace, what right had the French Admiral to prevent the
reparation of those fortresses? He had heard that it was
intended on the part of France to render assistance to Don
Pedro in certain meditated hostilities against the present
Portuguese Government. He had heard of such an in-
tention from persons who ought to be well informed. It
it were true, and if France should have determined to
tosist Dun Pedro, how was the captured Portuguese fleet
to be regarded ? was it to be considered French or Portu-
guese? It it did (and he thought it did) still justly be-
long to Portugal, what right had the French Government
to dispose of it? But if it were to be looked on as a
nevelt flset, he would only say what a comment it waled
be on her professions of non-intervention, should France
place it at the disposal of Don Pedro to be employed in
hostilities against the existing Government of Portugal?
Could his Noble Friend opposite be so infatuated not to
see that any change which should be effected in the Go.
vtrnment of Portugal by French means, would inevitably
lead to the injury of this country? Did the Noble Earl
thick that the French Government bad any regard to the
interests of Don Pedro and his daughter, further than
that 'in promoting their interests, they might be
able to place Portugal in a state of dependence
upon France, and lower the influence which England
had so long possessed in the former country ? To effect
that had been the object of the different Governments of
France all along. In that, the Government of Napoleon,
Louis, Charles, and Orleans bad been all alike. But he
(Lord A.) had always understood that it was the policy of
this country to look with vigilance and watchfulness to the
external movements of the French Government, and to
prevent France from extending too much her power over
other countries ; and be thought that if his-Noble Friend
pretended to act on other principles, he (Earl Grey) would
betray his trust (as we understood the Noble Lord, who
spoke indistinctly). He by no means held the opinion that
France was the natural enemy of England, as had some-
times been said, but he looked upon her as the natural rival
of this country, and that she would never cease to seek
advantage at our expense. In this question, the tran-
quillity and safety of the Peninsula were involved. It
affected the very existence of the Spanish Monarchy ; and
he would ask, did the Spanish Government deserve to be
placed in the circumstances, in which the continuance of
the policy hitherto pursued by Ministers would inevitably
place that Government ? He would ask the Noble Earl
(Grey) whether he had not had much to unlearn respect-
ing the Spanish Government since he came into office ?
He would ask the Noble Earl had any Government ever
acted with greater good faith in respect to treaties, than
that of Spain ? It was now time, that what used to be
the policy of England towards the Peninsula should be laid
aside. So far from endeavouring to make Portugal a
thorn in the side of Spain, it ought to be the objeCt of this
country to unite the whole Peninsula in friendship to us.
Whatever might be said of the present Government of
Spain, it was a fact that no country in Europe had, for some
time past, advanced further in amelioration, or was at pre-
sent in more rapid progress of improvement " He understood
that plots were in preparation in this country against the
tranquillity of Spain ; with which plots (as we under-
stood) Don Pe 'ro was connected. That Prince might,
perhaps, be able to spread civil war over the Peninsula,
from one end to the other, and cover the land with blood.
But he (Lord Aberdeen) could not believe that that Prince
would succeed in overthrowing the Government of Spain,
because the people were attached to that Government,
and would defend it with their lives.--(Hear, hear.)
[laving made those observations, he might, perhaps, he
expected to submit some definite proposition to their Lord-
ships. But he would not take the matter out of the hands
of Ministers. lie thought it sufficient for his purpose to
have called the attention of the Noble Eatt opposite to the
condition of the ancient ally of this country, and through
it to the peace of Europe. Having done so, he would
leave to the Noble Lord the responsibility for which he
must be prepared. He concluded by laying on the table
the petition of certain merchants, shipowners, and others,
engaged in the Portuguese trade, praying the attention of
the House to the low state of that trade, which they attri-
buted to the interruption of the diplomatic relations of
this country with Portugal.
Earl GREY said, that when the Noble Earl who had
last addressed their Lordships gave notice that he should
on that evening present a petition relating to the affairs
of Portugal, and that he should take the opportunity of
calling the attention of the House to the subject referred to
by the petitioners, be (Rail Grey) was left to conjecture
to what part of the affairs of Portugal the Noble Earl
might think proper to apply himself. But lie was not
prepared to expect that the Noble Lord could take a
course so unreasonable and unfair, as to discuss the sub-
jects
which lie had now brought forward, without giving
notice to his Majesty's Ministers of what his intentions were.
The Earl of ABERDEEN begged pardon of the Noble
Earl fur the interruption; be wished to explain, that
when a Noble Marquis opposite asked him to what sub-
ject the petition referred, he replied to the political rela-
tions of this country with Portugal.
Earl GREY was not prepared to hear a discussion
opened upon that part of the subject, which th&r
Lord-
ships bad understood to be postponed, in consideration of
the inconvenience of discussing it until the papers neces-
sary to place the whole question before the House d
shoulbeen
d
be produced—the production of which papers ha
promised there _and in -the other House. Any discussion,
therefore, of that subject was premature until those docu-
ments should have been laid before their Lordships, which
were most material for their information respecting it.
, Much of what the Noble Lord had said gave bins (Lord
Grey) very great- surprise.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As
to the petition itself, he did not know what rela-
'tion it had to the speech of the Noble Earl. I,

complained of the ow state of the trade of the pe-
titioners, and called upon the House to take measures
for the restoration of those diplomatic relations,
by the which they supposed their trade
hid been injured: The Not,le Lord -had not told them
whet *ere the persons foam whom the Petition came; but
it was not difficult to perceive that they were persons very
much interested in that amiable Monarch, whose corvine
the Nobi- Lerd opposite himself had described before now
in terms of rerrohazion, although he now seemed to have
t .hen biro under his protection. He (Eirl Grey) had
li-ard that the petition lay for signatures a long time in a
coffee-house in the city, and that there were annexed te
it the names of n t more than sixteen merchants. Bet
the Noble Earl Might to have borne In mind, that no pat t
of the proceedings of the present Government had occa-
sioned that interruption of which the petitioners coni-
ploined.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl, indeed, found
fink with the manner in which they bad demanded satis-
faction for the injuries which tic Portuguese Government
had done to British eti!jects. But that demand had been
approved by the English merchants connected with the
Portuguese trade, who thanked the Government for the
course which they hail adopted upon that occasion.—
(Hear, bear, he:r.) The Noble Lord (Aberdeen) corn
neenced by stating that the injuries suffered by the mer-
chants in their trade bad been occasioned by the non-
recognition of the Portuguese Government by this
country; and he concluded with a violent invective
against every thins which had been • done by Mi-
nisters respecting the French expedition to the Tagus.
That serious injuries had been done by the Government of
Portugal to subjects of this Government, the Noble Lord
opposite would not deny, as many of them had taken place
when that Noble Earl himself was a member of the Ad-
ministration. Satisfaction -had been demanded by that
Administration again and again, but they obtained none.
Up to the day the Nub's Earl retired from office, al re-
chess bad been evaded, withheld, or refused. Since then,
other additional outrages upon British subjects and pro-
perty had been committed by Portugal, and Ministers were
compelled to insist on satisfaction in a manner which led
to their promptly obtaining ir.—(Hear.) Subsequently
injuries were done by the same Government to subjects of
France; and accordingly the French Government also de-
manded satisfaction ; and now he had the authority of the
Noble Duke opposite (Wellington) to oppose to the Noble
Earl ; the former having said some evenings ago, that after
the English Government had demanded satisfaction in the
manner in which they had made the demand, it was
scarcely possible that they could interfere to prevent
France from making a similar demand in the same manner.
But then the Noble Earl seid, that Ministers ought to have
interfered, by offering their advice—admitting that they
had interfered when it was too late. The documents which
should soon he laid upon the table, would prove to their
Lordships that the interference had not been delayed to the
last ; and even at the last moment, he ( Eat' Grey) did
not think that it would have,been too late if it had been at-
tended to. The Noble Earl disputed the right of the
French to the ships which they had captured, because, as he
said, in order to make the ships a legitimate prize there
must have been a legitimate war. But he (Lord Grey)
thought that when the war hail once taken place, it was
not necessary to go back to the origin of the war in order
to decide whether or not the prizes were legitimate; but
he (Earl Grey) had no doubt whitever that they bad a
legitimate right to those prizes—nor did he believe that
the King's Advocate would have given, under any circum-
stances, a contrary opinion. The opinion which he bad
given should be laid before the House, as also the papers
upon which that opinion had been founded; in order that
the Noble Earl himself might see that his (Earl Grey's)
opinion was well founded, and that the case had been laid
before the King's Advocate fully and impartially, and that
the whole matter bad been brought under the full consi-
deration of that eminent lawyer. He must express his
astonishment at the quarter from which the statement had
come, that full information bad-not been given to enable
the King's Adviser to give a sufficient answer upon that
difficult and painful question. He would remind the
Noble Earl of an occasion when papers were demanded in
order to show the grounds upon which an opinion of the
Crown Lawyers had been given. The Administration
with which the Natae Earl was connected gave a direct
negative to a motion for the production of those papers;
and the Noble Earl himself then defended the refusal of
the Government of such information as he was now
anxious to obtain. He was not prepared to enter into a
discussion, and now briefly called the attention of the
House to that part of the Noble Lord's speech which
had some relation to the matter of the petition—that
was, the situation of Great Britain in respect to Por-
tugal in consequence of the cessation of our di-
plomatic relations with that country. The Noble Lori
would not go farther than he (Earl Grey) would go in
acknowledging the value of our relations with Portugal,
nor would the Noble Lord go farther than he in seeking a
remedy for the situation in which those relations were now
placed, and for the inconvenience which, as the Noble Lord
stated, hid been occasioned to our commerce by the long-
continued suspension of our diplomatic intercourse. But
it was not to the present Government, which bad not yet
been ten months in office, that that suspension was to be
attributed, which had now continued for three years. For
two years, therefore, all the responsibility of the inconve-
niences rested upon the Noble Earl, and a heavy responsi-
bility indeed did rest upon the Government of which the
Noble Earl was a Member, if they were answerable for
all the acts of Don Miguel; and if, as the Noble Earl said,
the results of those acts were brought about by the Go-
vernment of this country, but a very small portion of the
responsibility could be laid upon the present Administra-
t'oo. The Noble Lord had ascribed the continuance of
the evils complained of by the petitioners to the negocia-
tions entered into by this country with Brazil, and the
attempt of Don Pedro to place his daughter upon the
throne of Portugal; and he (Earl Aberdeen)'_ thought that
all difficulty which had been occasioned to the English
Government bad been terminated by the rejection of Donna
Maria by the people of Portugal. He (Earl Grey) would
not then follow the Noble Lord in his reasoning upon that
question ; but wou'd only say, that that was not the cause
of the delay on the part of the present Government to re-
new its diplomatic relations with Portugal. He
was not assisted by the clear lights of the Noble
Earl, to understand the distinction which he made
between a condition and a preliminary. In 1829,
-Spain recognised Don Miguel, there being an under-
derstanding with Spain, France, and England, that
the two latter Governments would also recognise him
if he could be brought to perform the obligations into
which he had entered. But since that time he had done
nothing to enable his Majesty's Government to send him
an Ambass.dor, or recognise the title which the Noble
Earl thought be had so well established. But in a dispatch
of the Noble Earl, dated 17th Sept. it was stated that
difficulties, wholly insurmountable by the English Govern-
ment, obstructed the • renewal of diplomatic relations with
Portugal. As is was, in the first place, essential that the
person at the bead of the Portuguese Government should
fulfil the engagements into which he had entered, and that,
were that obstacle removed, there was another, without
the removal of which it would be inconsistent with the
honour of his Majesty and of his Government to recognise
Don Miguel, the dispatch stated that objection to be the
refusal of Don Miguel to grant an amnesty to those persons
who bad expressed opinions to which the British Govern-
ment had given its s diction. Had that difficulty been
since done away with ? Had the amnesty been granted ?
Had the Noble Earl (Aberdeen) been able to obtain it?
No ; but on the first day of the last Session he stated that
it had not been granted, but that it was promised and was
about to be given ; and that upon that expectation the re-
cognition might take place. Instructions accordingly
were sent to Lisbon to Mr. Mackenzi-, but the amnesty
being still delayed, those instructions were counter-
Mended ; and Mr. Mackenzie's successor was directed
to' inform the Portuguese Government, that an amnesty
was an essential condition..—(Hear, hear.) But the Noble
Earl opposite asked him (Earl Grey) was this state of
things to last for ever ? That was a question which he (Lord
Grey) might have asked the Earl three years ago.—(Much
cheering.) Nut only was that amnesty which the N..ble
Earl at that time considered as an essential condition still
, refused, but the most horrid cruelties bad been exercised
upon those in whose behalf that amnesty was demanded.—
' (Hear.) But the Noble Earl said that the Portuguese
Government was not a very bloody Government, inasmuch
as only twenty-two persons bad suffered upon the scaffold
for political offences. Btit the " Noble Earl passed alto-
gether over those who bad been driven from their families,
and stripped of their property. He passed over those who
hail perished in dungeons, and over those of whom it might
still too truly be said, clansi in tenebris, cum meerore et
luctu, morte graviorem vitam exigunt. Under the exist-
ing Government there was no security for the people. A
wretch at the head of a banditti under the name of a police
committed atrocities which it would scarcely be believed
evnei.faultarrernud
wards
ninwith
Portugal,the present e no to g
ht Governmentto rbe
pprepared
e forp nt
any nation would endure. When the Noble Earl found
:tat n‘cvelee.—n l(iCeeditstocodnedfeuncdt
the
course which be himself had pursued towards that Go-
vernment in oHffieceeEnunder
Grey)• neo more favourablegreed
w
ith
that Noble Lord that this Government had no right to inter-
fere in the internal affairs of another kingdom. If the person
de facto at the head of the Government in another country
placed himself in a condition to maintain diplomatic rela-
tions with other States, it was not for us to look so nicely te

cis internal management of hie kingdona Bfit he had heard
with surprise the Noble Earl charge Ministers with having
:nterfered in the internal affairs of Portugal, and with
having endeavoured to force a Co istitution upon the
cople. Government had interfered only by advice
which the circumstances called fdr, and by such re
•nonstrences as they bad a right to make. He agreed that
it wes the duty of ibis Government to attend to English
anterests, hut he could not divest his mind of the principle
of his early life, that a Gavel-me! k funded upon Orin-
eiples of justice was more to be trusted thin one which
deeended on the arbitrary will of an individuel. Yet he
did not thick that we might nut ent.r into diplomatic,
ind even into amicable relations with a country, although
its Government was of a different form from ours. He
did not know that it wag necessary for hire: to go fuitber.
Indeed the Noble Earl; in the last sentence of his speech;
might hive appeared to Make, even whet he (Earl Grey)
Intl said superfluous, fur the Noble Earl said, that having
cone so far, he did not consider this a cage in which it was
necessary for him to interfere, or to make any further re-
presentations to their.' Lordships. The Neble Earl con-
tieed himself to simply presenting the petition, and the
only question now before their Lordships was, that the
petition, hating been read, should lie upon the t able.
He (Earl Grey) therefore; did not feel it necessary to go
into the case further until all the documents were before
their Lordships: but the Noble Eirl might be assured,
Vtat when the day came for the discussoa to come on re-
gularly, when the necessary information was before the
House, he should be ready to meet the Noble Earl or any
body else who arraigned the conduct of Ministers, and to
show that in what they had done, or in what they had it in
contemplation to do, neither the honour nor the interests
of this country would hare suffered by any act of his Ma-
jesty's present Ministers, or from any c!reurnstaeces but
such as it was not in their lower to controul.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, it was hardly ne-
cessary for him to justify his Noble Friend in the course
he had taken on presenting this petition, because the peti-
tion itself related specially to the British interests in Por-
tugal, and to the interruptions, which, it gave him pain to
state, those interers laboured under, in consequence of the
existing state of our relations with that country. It was
a mistake on the part of the Noble Earl (Grey) to state
that this petition was signed by persons interested in the
person of the Monarch now on the throne of Portugal.
He did not deny that they bad an interest in Porttigat, but
it was a mistake to say that they bad any personal interest
as regarded the Sovereign. It was a mistake likewise on
the part of the Noble Earl to say that the petitioners were
only fifteen, and those persons of little importance in this
great city. There number was thirty-two ; their Lord-
, ships might read their names, and they would see that
they consisted of some of the principal merchants in the
city of London, and that every one of them was interested
in the trade between Portugal and Great Britain.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought that the topics urged by his Noble
Friend were peculiarly those topics which ought to have
been pressed in calling the attention of their Lordships to
the petition. There was one topic which his Noble Friend
had deferred to a future time, as it regarded the wine
trade, and as there would lie another opportunity for
its consideration. But his Noble Friend might have
told their Lordships—and told them with truth, that
in the question of the wire trade, not only Portugal,
but the whole Peninsula—not only the whole Penin-
sula, but also the Powers of Germany and Italy, were
interested. The trade is ith France, which was in amount
nut one-fifth of the trade with Portugal, was to receive
equal encouragement. Government were about to put the
trade with France and the trade with Portugal upon the
same footing—the wines of Portugal and the Peninsula
were to be placed in the same situation as. the wines of
France—that is to say, to favour France, which desired no
intercourse or traffic with us, except for her own advan-
tage, we were to put down the trade with Portugal, and at
the same time to discourage the trade with Spain and other
countries. His Noble Friend had not touched upon this
p int, because he was unwilling to detain them, as there
would be a future opportunity. But it he had detained them
still longer, he would have done rightly, and would further
have shown the partiality of the Noble Lords .opposite to
the trade of France. But his Noble Friend had confined
himself particularly to that part of the question which re-
ferred to the political relations between Portugal and this
country. The Noble Earl, in replying to his Noble Friend
upon this point, had availed himself of an admission of his
(the Duke of Wellington) respecting the conduct of Minis-
ters, in not interfering in favour of Portugal, on the invasion
of that country by the French. He must confess, that when
he made that admission, he was not aware of the circum-
stances as they had occurred. He was not aware at that time,
when be made that admission, that we had followed the ex-
ample of France, instead of setting the example. Tke truth
of the matter was this-that the French brought forward new
claims on the 18 thof March, and we, in imitation of France,
advanced our chitin on the 18th of April.._ Now, he bad
imagined that we made our claim first, and having made
it, he thought that we could not turn round upon France,
and say, " You shan't do that which we have done."
But, the truth of the matter was, that we followed the ex-
ample of France, and it would almost appear to have
been a conspiracy between the two Powers to ice which of
them could mow down the fastest that poor and defenceless
country.—(Hear, hear.) Commodore Le Baudrier came
before Lisbon on the 18th of May, and he then repeats his
claims and says—and, by tile way, be carried into execu-
tion his project—he says, " I will seize your merchant
ships, and your ships of war." And in consequence of
that seizure of their ships of war, they lost the island of
Sr. Michael's. But, what became of his (the Duke of
Wellington's) admission as to •the impossibility of inter-
ference, when it appeared that our act followed, instead of
preceding that of France ? The Noble Earl stated, that
though we were bound by treaty, still, having acted in this
manner, we could not interfere to prevent a similar line of
conduct on the part of the French. In answer to that, he
had only to repeat, that our interference followed that of
the French, and tho Portuguese Government stood in
need of our assistance at the very time when they asked for
it---namely, when Commodore Le Baudrier was before the
port. The war did not commence until the 18th of July.
Was there not time then, he would ask, for a report to
have been made to this country of the state of affairs, and
for this country to have expostulated with France, and
pointed out to her the inconvenience, nay he would say
the indecency, of proceeding in such a manner with re-
spect to affairs which were under discussion between the
two countries? He came now to the particular conduct
of the French Admiral. He did not speak in his capa-
city as a Member of their Lordships' House, or as an
officer of the army, but as an Englishman, when he said
that he had never known an act which excited so much
indignation in his mind as the conduct of the French Ad-
miral.—(Hear, hear.) On the Bth of July he states his
terms, which were the same as before, with four addi-
tional articles, and informs the Portuguese Government
that if his terms are not adopted, war exists in fact. The
Government of Portugal rejects the articles on the 10th,
and then we were to suppose war existed in fact. On the
11th of July be enters, and states that generous France—
la France trap genereuse—grants nothing except com-
pensation to those who had suffered from the hostilities.
And these, he believed, were only two seamen who
who bad sufferel by an explosion of one of the ships.—
The terms were agreed to on the 12th July. He could
not take upon him to say exactly whether, by the law of
nations, there was war in fact between the day when
the Portuguese Government sent its answer to the demand
and
the day on which the agreement was finally signed.—
But of tbis be was certain that after the 11th, when there
was pew, no hostilities were committed. The Portuguese
shipping never fired upon the French fleet ; it was the
Fiench fleet that fired upon them. The Portuguese only
fired when they were fired upon, and then struck. Seeing,
then, that the demand having been made on the 11th, the
hostilities did not commence on the part of the Portuguese
fleet, but on that of the French, and that they were not
actually in possession of the fleet after the demand was made.
He doubted whether the opinion of the King's advocate
was worth so much as the opinions which the Noble Earl
found fault with—those at his (the Duke of Wellington's)
a for not having produced on a former
asanoeftlitier)eir importantLotdsh
ips. I
fact, tto whichgbt be he
side
eualsorilof ncta.hl el
There
rsew
attention
disputed whether or not the Portuguese shipping had fired
upon the French ; but the Portuguese Government called
upon the French Admiral to say what Portuguese ship had
fired, if any had ; and, therefore, if it were the cause, it
admitted or proof. He said that, according to the law of
tiations, the Portuguese fleet was not a fair prize of war.
ft might forum a fair article in a capitulation, but he firmly
believed that it was not a fair prize of war. After the treaty
af the 12th of July, containing the articles upon which the
made, and in which there was one important
pence was
le,et ipidatirl
that the French fleet should go away
within a certain time, it turned out that since that there
was another treaty— the former consisting of twenty, and
this was one of six articles. In the first treaty was
claimed the cession of fort St. Julien: in the second, there
was a demand that the forts on the Tagus should neither
be reinforced nor repaired. This was alter the peace—the
trwephai pAerds—miroanl e
d eetro Catoidirterdbrt
tart of St. Julian was not to be repaired. And it seemed
that this dispute arose about an article published in two
ie
ab,atthtbeeostuhbm
e subject should
sObopuolrdtobe.
The
Fener
=ideated to the public in the manner which suited his
judgment. Th s was not complied with ; and on that ac•
eount this nation, under our protection, was to be called

upon for fui they concessions. 'there was another demand '
to which lie would beg particularly to calf the attention of
their Lordships, as it related directly to The subject of the
petitiof: ; namely, 64 French subjects rradin„et to Portu-
gal should lie placed upon the same feoting as those of the
most favoured netioa—the:t ?s !o ?ay, the subjects of his
Majesty. When he saw the-e ueeeine3's made; and saw
(I..ecrnsivent do nothing, and when he sate fhis conduct
edepted tonne :'e a country with which we were tinder
treaties--(fur that We iCefc under such treaties could not
be denied; and we ha 1 made &Arendt under some of
ebeee treaties)—he felt that we wed treeted in a
manner to which no great and independetre cation
ought to submit. —.(l-Riari) His opinion had always been
end he bad stated it before, that the cause of the uneirtu-
n are situation in which the Severeigri fif that country was
! pleeed, was to be attribeted to his having no reliftiont with
the other Mates of Europe. Portugal lid not belong to
tie family of Europa; &el it was the duty of Government
t • remove her from the situaiiistf in ;IMO' she stood in that
respect as soon as possible. The Nen!! Eterl threw the
Maine open the former Government, and asked eel.), they
had not made the rrangement? His Noble Friend had
already stated, in the first pleeei that the late Government
was bound by engagements not etifeted into by themselves,
fit by a preceding Government, to recnghige flee Queen,
Donna Marie, and the Sovereign of Portugal. The Pince
who went to that country as Regent broke his engage-
ments; and there was no mart amongst their Lordships,
Who more lamented the violation of those eugatemente, or
had done mote to prevail upon the personage in question to
conduct himself properly, as he thought it would have
united his Government and his interests. But he after-
wards felt it to be his duty, as the King's servant, to en-
deavour to restore the relations between th?e country and
Portugal, by a reunion of the different branches of the
House of Braeattie. It was not our business to support a
civil war in Portugal, or by farce of arms to re-establish
matters i-a that country, but we Wt te bound to do every
thing thet we could, by conciliation and teltiee, to restore
amity between the two branches of the House of Draganza,
and to try to bring back rortngal to the family of nations.
The former Government had made eurious efforts with those
views, and they had found Don Pedro desirous of carrying
on the war, or rather that this country should carry on
the war for him—sometimes desirous of settling tie affeir
by amicable negociation, and et others wishing to make
war against his brother by means of which he (the Duke
of Wellington) could never .approve--hp revolutionary
means, and by assistance privately and clandestinely
given to rebels against the Government de facto.—( Ilear,
hear.) Of such measures he had no doubt Don Pedro
himself did not now approve, for they had lost the empire
of Brazil. Don Pedro was afterwards dtsireus of con-
ferring his daughter in mairiage upon his brother; but
he accompanied that concession with a demand that we
should be answerable for the conduct of his brother. Con-
sidering all that had passed, the late Government felt that
they could not enter into such a conditions, and they there-
fore broke off the list negociation. Then the Noble Earl
had reed a paper, signed by his Noble Friend on the
17th of September, 1630, in uhich the Government of
that day suggested other measures to be adopted by Don
Miguel, assuring him that those ix eastires would lead to a
recognition of him by this country, and that an Ambassador
should be immectiaaely sent to Lisbon. He confessed be
(the Duke of Wellington) had often doubted about that
recognition, and he never would have agreed to such a
measure as a condition of any act to be done by Don Mi-
guel, as regarded the people of Portugal. He never
would have agreed to make this country an arbitrator
between Don Miguel and his subjects in Portugal; but
he thought that before the Government of this country
could recognize him, and ask the other Powers of Eu-
rope to follow its example, it ought to require that he
should offer a general amnesty to all his subjects who had
been concerned in the service of the Cortes. What the
Noble Earl had not told their Lordships was this :.....Was
the Noble Earl willing, in case that condition had been
fulfilled—.would he not have sent an Ambassador to
Portugal.—(Hear, bear.) Had he told Don Miguel that
he would or that be would not, under any circumstances,
recognize him, because when he challenged the
miner Government for not having made the arrange•
anent, he ought to have followed their example through-
out, if be followed it so far as he had done ? And
it was more incumbent upon the Noble Lord opposite
than upon the former Government, to take measures to
bring back Portugal to the family of Europe, to protect
her front such misfortunes as had happened within the
last three months; for this reason, because the Revolution
in France had made a greater progress since that time,
than when the late Government made the proposition to
Don Miguel. All these topics specially related to the pe-
tition presented by his Noble Friend, and it was impos-
sible to enter into the consideration of the petition with-
out adverting to these points. The petitioners told their
Lordships that until the political relations of this country
with Portugal were renewed, they carried on their trade at
a loss.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had received a
letter from an officer residing in Lisbon, who had been
attached to the cavalry in Portugal under the command of
the Marquis of Anglesea, on the subject of the conduct of
Mr. Hoppner, the British Consul. This gewlemati gave
a very different opinion of Mr. Hopper's mode of pro-
ceeding to that which had been expressed by the Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woulsack. Tile Noble Marquis
then read an extract from the letter, the substance of
which was as follows:—The writer stated, " that great
misrepresentation bad gone abroad as to the amount of
disaffection existing in Portugal ; and he conceived that it
was at the instigation of the French Ministers at Lisbon
that the two armaments had lately been sent against that
place. He stated, that out of SO British residents, only
65 had signed the memorial forwarded to this country.—
He complained of the behaviour of Mr. Hoppner, who,
he stated, seized every opportunity to show his enmity to
Don Miguel, and frequently told the Pcrtuguese that the
only way for them to ingratiate themselves with England,
was to get rid of their King." The Noble Marquis said
that the opinions of this officer were worth being attended
to. He would not then go into the general question, but
lie hoped that when the subject should come before the
house, Ministers might be able to answer the unanswer-
able statement—(A laugh)—of the Noble Duke. The
country would expect something more in reply to that
statement than an attempt to evade it by gibes and jokes.
Ministers would find themselves much mistaken it they
thought they could preserve the peace of Europe by an
alliance with France. It certainly was no wise step to
begin by truckling to France in her policy with respect to
Portugal and Belgium.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would put it to the
Noble Marquis himself whether it was fair to bring
publicly a charge of this kind against a public officer, on in-
formation which, as far as the Noble Marquis had gone,
was anonymous.—(Cries of " hear, hear.")
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to explain,—
(Loud cries of " Order" from the Ministerial side, in the
midst of which the Noble Marquis continued fur some
moments to press himself on the attention of the House)
—at length the Noble Marquis said he rose to order.—
(The cries of " Order" were still continued.)
The LORD-CHANCELLOR rose to order. He said
the Noble Marquis had the right to rise to order if any
thing disorderly, which he certainly had not heard, had
fallen front his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne),
but he had no right to interject a speech by way of expla-
nation between an unfinished sentence of any Noble Lord
who toes addressing the House. It certainly was often a
convenience to allow of interruptions, where the itrerrup.
1 tion was to set the Noble Lord speaking right as to a
matter of fact; yet even in that case it was only by the
courtesy of the Noble Lord who was speaking that any
other Noble Lord could be heard ; but it certainly was not
in order for any Noble Lord• to rise to explain in the
middle of the speech of another Noble Lord.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE proceeded. He could
assure the Noble Marquis that he meant no discourtesy to
him in pursuing his argument without giving him an op-
portunity of explaining ; but if the Noble Marquis had
heard him to the end of his remarks on that part of the
subject, he would have found that while he meant to ob-
ject to the unfairness of charging a most respectable public
officer on anonymous information,—he admitted that
though the Noble Marquis bad given the statement anony-
mously he had offered to submit the whole letter to the in-
spection of any of his Majesty's Ministers ; but then it
was on the condition that the case should be inquired into
and the Consul be dismissed, if it should turn out to be
correct. (The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—OnIy that the
case should be inquired into.) However, the Noble Mar-
quis had put the case before their Lordships anonimouely.
Now it appeared to him that if the Noble Marquis thought
the case of such importance, he ought to have laid it before
the Government. He (the Marquis of Lansdowle ) bad
no personal knowledge of the very excellent individual
(Mr. Hoppner) to whom the Noble Marquis had alluded,
hut lie must say, that from all lie bad heard of him, he be-
lieved him utterly incapable of such conduct as the letter
read by the Noble Marquis had tattribeted to him. He
telt convinced that he would never not only be guilty him-
,aelf of such conduct, but that he would not in any way
countenance it in others. If the Noble Marquis should
miring it forward in a regular way,—and he was sure that
no person would be more desirous than the respectable in
alividual himself that it should be brought forward,—lit
ad no doubt tbat it would turn out to be the reverse
of what the Noble Marquis's letter_ ba4l stated.

Ministers had not shown themselves disposed to sheltc:,
th niselves under the opinion of the King's Advocate.
Tar y were willing to prodirce that opinion, and they were
willing also to prodnce all the mere to which the Noble
Eirl had alluded. Ile woultl not nay that those?' seri
were 0...4ted for in the expectation that they would ha-: -
• fused, hut Ile could not but think that Noble Lords opposite
were rather 46yr:rinted that Ministers were ready to
produce them.Heword not enter into the question of
t trete, referred to by the Noble Duke, farther than to state
th It the 1444 e Duke teas wrong as to the inference be
drew from those dites. The Noble Duke said, that we
bad only followed the el:ample of France, but the Noble
Duke left wholly out of his view whether the case which
J t owe had to urge was just or not.--(liear, hear.) If
the Noble Duke would look to the circumstances under
which we had eatight the redress- of our grievances, he
would have found that we had sent our fleet to Lisbon in
Aptii, and the French ft et had not arrived there tll
June. There was one point on which he would say a
word. Ile uronhl admit, that in claiming redress for any
particular grievence, tee :should not look with any' presli-
lection for any particular form of Government,—we
eliould look to the I resent and future relations between
the two countries. This was the course which the twe-
e, nt Government bsd taken ; but when the Noble Earl
(Aberdeen) talked of the protection to which Portugal
War. entitled from u', did lie mean to say that the ormsic.
Lion was tee be extended to MN of iajost'ce as well to the
subjects of Portugal, so many of whom were imprisoned
at home Or sent to exile to distant • and burning climates,
' as to the subjects of foreign States? Re hoped that Por-
tugal, would be tioght to know that we gave our sanction
to no injnetice of tither kind, and that whatever branch
of the House of Breganza might be at the bead of the Go-
vernment, the people of P.irtug el should receive that
protection to which they had a claim at our hands, if they
i acted with honesty and fairness towards us.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in explanation,
had offered to lay the whole of the letter before any of his
Majesty's Ministers; but as the Noble Marq is had called
it anonymous, he (the Marquis of Lendonderry) had no
objection to state the name of the distinguished officer
came
if:
name,
Sirmin:
Johnwh aeh
d:Tme,
except
mtt
Ficame.inobjectioni
the
h. e Thewfiateyo
.t
teas
ihaese officerhad
mention w.
ta
unwilling s
fi Brigadier-Generalroaft to
hosl
name.n proposed
en tit .
bh ni
He
he must say that the galluat officer from whom the letter
must stand excused, thirefoke; if be relied upon such in-
formation. •
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in explanation, had not
entered into the cause of the quarrel between France and
Portugal ; he spoke only of
,the acts of France, and of
what he considered the inconsistency of those acts, ae.cord-
iog to her own showing.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that his Noble Friend
(the Marquis of Lansdowne) was perfectly justified in
applying the term " anonymous" to the communication
made by the Noble Marquis opposite. The Noble Mar.
quis had now mentioned the name of his correspondent,
and he must say that Brigadier-General Sir J. Camp-
bell was married to a Portuguese lady, a Miguelite, and
it was not , improbable that his opinions had received
a bias on that account. But there were two parties
Involved in such a charge as the Noble Marquis had
brought, and before their Lordships could come to a correct
conclusion of the subject, it would be but fair to hear the -
,enswer to the charge. The Noble Marquis had read it
part of the letter ; now he should like to put a question
to the Noble Marquis, which he hoped he would have no
objection to answer. He should wish to ask him, what
number of his subjects that excelirnt King Dan Miguel,
to whom the Noble Marquis and lit correspondent bad
iven so good a character, had now imprisoned. He bad
heard that they were at least six thousand ; but he should
like to hear from so good an authority as that of a friend
of Don Miguel, what number he would admit, because in
[ that way their Lordships might judge whether Don Mi-
-1 guel wait entitled to the praise which had been given to him.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not feel called
upon to answer the question of the Noble Duke, because
the Noble Duke-leaned to assume in the outset that a
British officer of rank -would in consequence of his as-
sumed prejudice, state that which be did not believe to be
true. He would nay that no British officer of rank would
-tate what Ire did not 'believe to be true. He would not
give any farther explanation to the Noble Duke than this,
that he was ready to submit the letter to the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the Noble Duke
might get from the Noble Lord any information he could
on the subjtct.
The Duke of RICHMOND would repeat that the cite
cumstances in which that officer was placed made it pro .
bable that he was biassed in the communication which he
made. Farther than that be would not say on that point ;
but be must observe, that if the Noble Marquis attached
such importance to this information, he -should have-put
it into the bands of Ministers. It was not a fair way of
putting it, to give half a case to their Lordehips, and,to
suppress the other half, which perhaps might make so
much,* hie' purpose. As the Noble Marquis bad the
whole case before- him, he would wish to ask him whether
there were not 6,000 of Don Miguel's subjects in prison,
from their supposed hostility to him. He should like, t 9
know the whole particulars, and not a partial statement
of them. The Nob'e Marquis had said that a British
officer high in rank could not be supposed to state that
which he did not believe, but he (the Duke of Richmond)
bad just as good a right to suppose that an officer of the
' high rank and character of Mr. Hoppner would not be
guilty of the acts attributed to him.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was willing to put
the whole of the document into the hands of his Majesty's
Ministers, awl the Noble Duke might get what infortua-
tiun he could from them.
Viscount MELBOURNE asked to whom the Gallant
Officer had addressed his letter ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY replied, that it was
addressed to him.
The petition w is then ordered to lie on the table.
Adjourned at Nine o'clock.