The Sun.
London, England, 1813-03-09 00:00:00

THE Alt lY EsTim.yrr.s.

The .I'lonse having resolved' into a Coimpittee
of. Supply, to which all the papers presented by
the Secretary at War on. the subject, were ordered
to be referred ;,
Lord PALINIERSTON rose .fur' the purpose of
bringing before the Colionittee the Army Esti:
mates fm the; year. inexeenting this task, his.
Lordship observed that it would not bo necessary
to occupy Mitch of their One. Gentlemen ,on
the ottler Side were well acquainted with :the
nature.of the forms of these EStinuttes, that he
no observations to-offer on that hear.; but
might content himself with stating the variations
between, the amounts for the present. ancl.:the last
year.... These variations he should premise, arose,
solely froitt the: increase of our 'eStablishmentS,,
which, from a general view of the inaaer, would
' be found toll:vie been augmented by the number
of 12,000 men, which- occasioned the additional
cnpeotee,of 390,0001. This increa4e, he repeated,
Was owing to the increased numbers of .our
directive force, The best mode to render these
estimates clear to the Committee, would, be to
take them head by head ; and though' this would
. lead hint Fornewhat. into -'detail, yet lie trusted
that would be compensated by the satisfactory
view it allowed of Our -military The
.first bead was', the Land forces, Which eOmpre-
hended the whole regular arm with the excep-
tiOn of foreign corplin Britisli pay, the tegiments
employed in the territorial possens of the ,East
India Company, and the ettlb9died In tins.
p, •t there hail been an accession 'of 9600 Men,. and.
additioaat expense of, 299,000/. In noticing a
I few of the, subdivisions under this bead, hetstated
that an turgmentation had taken place in the house-
holti troops to the number of 970 um', at the ex-
ponec of 13,0001. This consisted of two troops
added to the Life, and two to the Horse guards,

•in consequence of the regiments being sent on fo-
reign service to the Peninsida; and a similarin-
crease of ,119 mro, 411(1' 9900/. of expeke in the
21st and 23r1 regiments of , Light Dragoons. " In
the infantry of the line there was an accession of
5300, anti an expence of 109,0001 which arose
partly from the addition of other battalions to se-
veral regiinents, and partly from the formation of
other vetm'an battalions awl provincial corps.—
Of the lltter the. number was 2000 more, and the
expence 85,000/. The increase of veteran batta-
lions was accounted for from the number of !nen
whom time toils of the campaign had worn out,.. and
who, though unfit tier the hardships ofd the field,
were fully competent to' do,garrison day; atutior
this purpose they had'been formed into this fie-
scription of force at Lisbon. A fifth garrison bat-
talion had also been fOrmed in the, West Indies, of

soldiers unfit any loktger to endure the fittiirues
n
active service. Another troop had also bee ailed to
the Waggon Train, by,which that force was made
to consist of twelve-companies instead of eleven.

They were thus disposed of :-9 troops were in
the Peninsula, and 3 troop, were at home, for the
purpose of recruiting and preserving a depot to
supply contingencies among those upon service.—
There were this year also, two additional Fencible•
Regiments raised in Canada and New Brunswick ;
the former, called the Wengary Fencibles, con•
sisted of Scotsmen who had settled in that Pro-
viuce, and the latter were called the New Bruns-
wick. Their services were limited to North Ame-
rica, where thuy were found to be very efficient ;
so much so, indeed, had ,a former Gleugary Re-
'giment been, that on volunteering their services
genertilly, their offer was received, and they' now
constituted the 104th regiment of the line. The
miscellaneous charges under this first head were
explained lit the Estimates, by 'memorandums
placed opposite to them. The increase was ap.
pnrently 151,0001. but the sums which had-been
saved from non-effective claims for iregimentil es-
tablishmsnts, woad re due the vote only 61,000/,

This (1,0001. arose,from the karger sums expended
in this, than the •former year on the recruiting
servi6e, both in England kind Ireland. Gentle-

men linewthat the Estiwate, on this point, was
,ealcntated upon she o.ptwe of the preceding year;
but the great increase of the number of r'eernits

raised in the present year, had rendered the cal-
emotion foanded on the yeafr before' insitfficient.
Oil the whole, under this head, tvbtild lie found an
iacrease of men to the number of 9600, and.,of ex,-
pence to the amount of 299,000/. The second
head rtlferred to reAiments in the East Indies, bitt
as these were by law declared to be payable out of
the revenues of the CoMpany, it was only neues-
saq to-mention them', that the whole state of the
Army of Britain might come into. one complete
view.. The next head was the embodied Militia, in
‘..,hich there Was only 'a difference of two men, and
expellee 17,000/. in conseqaenee of the vote of last
year, respecting. the supernumeraries being difiti-
nished..' The next head was that of General Staff
‘ani.l Garrisons, and in this there' was'an
_increase
of 411,0001,-
owing to the mnigmentatiOn of the,S,taff
serving abroad, particularly •in the Medical Depart-.
ment, and to the transfer -15,0001.- which had
heretofore been charged hi the army extraordinaries,
for the Deputy Quarter-Master-General, .&c. but
which was now placed among the Army EstiMates.
This addition also arose from- the pay of a Com-
-1/mmler...in-Chief in the Maarititis, and the nnpoint-
went to several new commis4ions in the West In-
dies. The next head was that of full pa,'Y to su-
pernumerary Officers, v,:hich exceeded the esti-
„matt of last year 10001, in consequence of the
greater. number of these Officers, tvliose services
deserved so well Of their country, having retired.
The next, teas the public depart inent allowances,
to which the increase was 28,0001, arising from a
larger sten being necessary to the. Pay-Office for
Exebetitter fees, There was also an increase of
:6001. in the CoMMander in Chief's Office, from
his Secretary's becoming entitled ftenn his length
,Of services", to a larger' salary, viz. 3,500/. The
War Office 'teas nearly the same as last, year. 'The
Adjutant General** Office required 935/./ from an
arrangement. heing;matie ,that the Deputy Adju-
tant-General should receive • the full pay of his,
lank; and a similar arrangement had taken place
in tile Qtlarter 'Master General's Department,
which,.however, there was a diminution of kOO/.
in the :clirge• for the depot for military know-
ledge.: There was notimittg more worth notice
„under this head, jn the next; • that' of the In-
ipenSionev, of Chelsea and Kilmainhant • flos-
Pitals, there was , an addition' of
.1300/, front
the pensioners this year .receiving full .cloth-
'Mg, which they only did every o,ther year:7--
Allie 'next head, tic.. Out-pensioners . of the-se
Eqa dishments, there was ;an claiM
of. 38,0001. • as' arrear :of pensions of former
years in' irelaoil but this would be met by
Stuns' already ;fowl and unexpended.
eleVenth head was that Of Widow's Pensions, and
in this there Was an increase of 1'250/.. owing to
, „
tuere heitig more deserving applican6 pint upon
the list than there bad been money fallen in front
deaths or marriage.s. In the next head, the
!lancer ,Corps, the expellee was 45,0061.1e5s than,
in the former year ; and a further redhetion of
8,3001. had takenitlace in the Local Alilitia, from
the reduction of- their numbers, in consequence of
the act of last Session. The next head was the.
Foreign trams, and included- the Suppleipentary
Estimate. here there was an increase of 2,500,
meu, and 90;000/. expence, arising front the ad-
ditions to the German Legiim, trail tlie formation.
of two Foreign Veteran Battalions, in whieli to
employ these men, worn ;;in: in our "seri ice, in-
steati of sending ththu home as 'before. This sys-
tem had been alltered, and the new Mode adopted
ht consequence of the 'present state of, the Con-
tinent; which sUbjeCted these brave men to danger'
inconsistent • with the charlcter of this ettuntry,
and .the protection we were bound to bestow up-
on those who had served us. The aMount was
als' increased hy -the formation of sevep independ-
fine COmpanies,, hr Gfinipimies composed of
Frenchmen. At the' beginning of ltostilities the
desertions (rota the enemy in Spain had been coti-
fined to Germans,,&e.:bitt within the last year and
'a half, the privations to which they .:.yere exposed
had induced many Frenchmen ton comeover to, the'
other side: .These could not be incorporated with
our foreign CcirpS ; and in order to obtain useful
and militaw service from them, it was determined
to form then t into these small troops or com-
panies, as -the' nature of their, services
,might
'be, rather than embody them altogether into one.
Mass 'of force. The next' head • was the Royal
, Military ',College, in' the expense of which there
was an increase. Of, 18,2001.; but .a balance of
B,zool. left last year would reduce this item to on-
ly. 9,40'31: including. 2,8001, in the' Civil De-
partment, expended in the purehase of a house at
Farnham, rendered necessary by the esta,bliShment
at Sandhurst, and also ela
in din the .expense ofg
two new connianies of Cadets. In the next head,
the Royal Military Asylum, there was a small in 7.,
crease. In.the allowances to retired Chaplains,
&c. the estimates' were nearly '.tile s,anie and in
the Medicines and. Hospital Expelees,-there was
a diminution to the amount of 2,500/ 't'he.fol-
lowing head was%the Compassionate List , .which
there was an increase of 4,7001, in Tonse,quence
Of there being more elaitna»ts., whose. malts de-
manded compliance with their applications„
the nest head, the Irish Barrack' Deportment;
there was an increase of 9,5001 occasioned b'y the
transfer of an item which had been placed -under
another head, and by the rise in the priee.of neces-
saries fin' the-troops. 'I he Comtnissariat Depart-
meat of Ireland..exceeded the last year's estimate
by 28,0001, itt consequence of the increase of 407,
rage money for the cavalry, and 'the delivery of
great coats, and fifteen thnusand 'pairs of shoes to
tint men. The last bead was that of Superatinual-
tions ; and in this tLe'rt was a diminution of
5411. front the death of the late ,Mr, Lewis,, ill-
though- the retirement of Colonel 'Paterson from
office, ,pensioo, had been added to the',
charge. Tile general view, as, he ,bad mtlreltdy
stated, would give an increased expence of three
huathed ainl ninety-nine-thousand pounds ; brit a
deduction of l 8,0001., from this would leave the,
c9rt•ect, total about 381.,400/‘ With respect to
otu force, it was satisfactory to state, that the dit-
ference between the effective strength at the end
of -1811, and time end of 1812, was Vcry favourable,
notwithstanding tl.;t:
extent and magiiitude of the

services in which out armies weYe eng:igod; 00,,
withstanding the casualties'. of long, activ'e,,and
harassing campaigns ; marches,sdisease, autllOßSei
in battle. Surrnotinting all these obstacles, tve
had au actual increase of 10,200' effective ineo.--,
Of these a considerable portion indeed were of tile'
.-:For'eign-corps,i 'but in British alone, there was a
clear augmentation of
niards, who bad been incorporated with thetton
the l'enittsula. llis Lori then proeeedeil to
advert again to the successful nature of the rectlnt':
ing sell'ice withhi:thellst year, which, be .:°3‘
• tended, had not arisen ffout commercial tiiitr_eo.!
`2OOO men,,besides 400 Spa.
but was general throtighout the country. (-4,11`
, cause to which he 'attributed it was to Cll,llge 13
the recruiting system, by employing oilic'" ''ig.t
calculated for the serviee, aull
with the.cotiimand of all parties therein,
thotvgor
not belonging;to their 0-,vo regiments, illitea3,,,
Young officers', who accepted the rather il',".
leavemf absence than a.--!.. a service. The e'Per!
meut had first been tried in the Gloucester 91::;
trict, and from‘its succesl extended to four nr':..,
fig firod:;;,
giving tbeni distrvir
other' districts, in all of which still provi
tine and beneficial, the system NVOilld now b.' !i,
nerally resorted to, The cOntinuanee of thet,°;fit
rev in the district depended onhis success, a° of
plan would., in tit'e'first' instance, have:looj
effect of disengaging sevenlutudred ofticels'ilb'a
joining them to their several regiments. -411‘40:
of the improvements was to allow a latgo .5.;,-;
of the r 4 ward to the .11011-001111111S,Si011ed. °'!'fi„
11 ;
must,whoser.eetxitellyilieoaislsurett:ed,espueenc,er,ss; in
iottii:c'Tcr:;
and diligeut their. superior Officers rnigialtl 11,,1.,i
utt:fiber of recruits raised Ihst year NOci
cefi
lay
ordinary rectroiting. Tills was a great infro
as in the preceding years'it • had been rising ,D 1
these and ten, to eleven-and tWelve thotisaPtfi,
volunteers from the militia, were nearly e'l,l,l:illait
the pith number allowed,' namely, 9,9oo,malvt'm
total to the army of '.,t-1,335. Ttie .Pl'ech(L trot
volunteers from the trtilitiawas filled apt) 4 toll
of drum, and ti::erefore lie might' state c, litj
addition to the regular army to have bee:',.7gccit
, by the success of the recruiting service. bee:'
a_ most sati:,:.factory contemp'aqini, and it no
lil
ford the. House delight to 'see that the ard°uri to
spirit of the people roused in proportion ti, 6,,
be necto,
demands tn.)on theirservices. 'lt alight
nary to explainthe difference which existed re of
accountc ha os
were
v:tysiol
so,
cot,
,Il I
thef nittither of *casualtits which were accl-1 to
at', and those which really hadhappetleji: ail
bc.:,,tis uillatiilepserlcd which
,oti had
fohrceiegilti 1; 'hi' 0:::,)tt:
were litchi:ltd. Soule persotts who knew t"-, Ilit
had expressed their surpri4 'lt, ru.,
small amount of eke casualties stated in l',.'" lii
torn. . The retne,a which had •been.C:,lledi,,,lt),r..oo'.
i:nitilcl6s for:'r IS':lll,2l,'%"vhiCh n
in a_.e ......ertriert, was that of v.,- --‘ 1,
pts lir:00 Saf;ist..isc:B'dhs it::
of
i:
tfli!illee;':,in6:tiankim)eeeitili:c,neUlSl'plsti:llciolelit)l:'(b!ii(Uiilysirdli.:ll,lrililitio:tittit:ge.ili.nqti.e3ittldiliti:t3l.;r',
months of 1811. Sothat' , . ,„„., alio 1,,
Nose pers."-, at (''.
that the latter months of Ole' 1811 `s" ''
year - be oil
eluded in tire rfeturn. On the one‘liand:ta
j, or,,
her of men added. to the army, .til''illea.b
amount:xi to 39,762; including. thuse iii,'-'
regular recruiting--rhy recruiting front -"e1,,,
tia---those deserterti who had b6tn 11:(1'"-rii4(5
On the other,ltand, tilecesti:ifties of Dia
.Cd altogether to :,,,,0,,.,e,..), i ut. which itainhl; JO
were accounted for in the Ite'''''."' ' PT''''''' wW
2,787. m . - •
taccounted for. fn ordert(!`"°,l foo
there• was such a number titiacco.l`it'-.1 t, tie
would be necessary to.state- that Ot.,` ~,•ciP
, ' - o °tit -of'
loi- 'at is' sent abroad, the %,..0/11111ittlillOg iii ,
accouutltblef for' all .the.meit. ..But whet) t'iltt!
•v;rei It
au'lett, as to be relidered unfit ior se' -
s„, if-._
sent home in detachments. Thos.e 0).0,' ;.,, nit::t
home, were struck our the. list of efiLL'i:fi).JH
yi,(j,e,. all those me-ti who W.Crer so, woinfOci ° I.; 0
abl:oati, and not bein,„,.... taken oil the et'a 101. )
at- home, (though. -ultimately account'lerpett,
-their Commanding, Officers) tutee wits 'ltl,,,ilV, to
balance of these men, 'who, from o°l ",.,clO-'
eluded in 'either the list of effecti've ule'lbo4'
or abroad, would make up the differe"eroid
the number accounted for in the ret'hoe
.shaities, and the number which wi's.3°,\ltlicte-4,
eient. ' Such was the real c'ause bi 3 l'i lail)i'
wbkh appeared at first sight so est",`"ll- 1001 it';
evell nJtnot• inaccurate. The Nob'''. -,', 'IV 1
csit(ti)nti:ircyl9ufdeat,l.Gb2y7l7soo vi ill! gb a'se
graanliteesdoltioi tiiioisn )31,Itl.et,it,t)1:
the purpose of
,defraying the.expeaces
~(' ~
Establishment of t he liillolo'''' tbe`l"
Mr, BeN NET could not agree with ));I:'''l',
Lord in thinking that any great ati.:siof. to,,'
'wen derived from the system of rccru''ler ',e
the .Militia. - To prove:it, he would r;). toe);
munbers of men Who had been raise"' 0).it11 (t'.
g.191a,r mode of . recruiting, ire
10,0
raised by recruiting froin the Militia. 'lLiiti'4,
number of tacit raised by replay reer:bet,'4
1'1,40.2 ; and in the ,:one year the nutl,:it;;J!...
ceoits ifroin the Militia of the three
(1110,_ti'lif
was not much more than 1-1,000: jucidi)).)i'a'. '
who lidd enlisted fir life, as well i.s t.c 0,11.
irked ..seryi;ce. A , comparison of t"e,,,,:.
wassll:4eieitt to show that die adv•Loli „.,i,.
eruiting Frans the Militia had boctt ,!-
rated by 'the Noble- Lord (P"l'''
Could not forbear from offering s''''.. 1. e,
on the subject' of Arniy :Clothiii- - - '''.
derstood ,that there w..)--, a Clothil'g , ' ' I.
would like to know who were thei:;;,fei k,
that Board % Who_ w .e those a' . ,- ' i
C,I colt', r,
tiarom f) \Vho were those Vers°"', , ~..1!',,,
f:isteit tags upon the, 6110taciers of 4-11'-i',!-Ifoi- I.
Were those military ' Milliiteri.?-', ;,", in.qi'll:
the uniform of. the
this Board had, expeimed.,2ooo/.
linaril first deprived &agoutis °I -01'L('
1 t the he' c' c
and then another Boarti, 3. - ,tit ',
f LW „ s' 'i:
was Lord llarrington, (leprive` ti, ~,i,:1'
~: r.
leather. breeches, and sitbstityt-e„,„tiwi',,,,-,
trowsers. Such were the pro bite if1u,"0.,1:
13oards ; and although the Pu 41 ti.„'',,ii u,
it did not ' )10 -ii:.
spent without mercy, cfcets , ,A,);!".
Life Guards. , ti);l:if '.' i,,.,
a tolerable quantity, of . ,lo f'4,1(1
'suns i , for the ,expenditnrg pa al ,tit
:t .03Nt , II P.--
rnaki4 changes upon un,'o,l,ol:ie ,0,101,
siderable emoluments to the
irooililic.,,,o4'i.-it,Pih
tnents; The profit to the C°l'llo,,geo,leffqe
every regiment, from these c',l soh ', 00 .'''
Year. But though it prodOee‘it set iOO . i
soperior officers, if was a lu°
,in the P°. ificse ,A,);!;
ii
r

to subalterns... The calculation of
of the dress and, accoutrements: of a.
Dragoons, since the changes ill tini-
by the Board of Clothing, was as-fol-
;et, 231.; Pelisse, 21/. ; Embroidered
; Sword and Cap, &c. 601. ;
swik-
-1081. ; to .which must he added the
the horse, which amounted to about
ing in all, nearly 1201. for the dress
lents of every' kind neeesjary to a
Leer in a dragoon regiment. _There-
Ile yeas, his expellees for dress, 3tc:
to 300/. at leasf; while the pay of
only 1561.
t, whose hatrie we could not learo,
length against several parts of the
eobsetved that the Noble Lord had
'e 10ss of the •British army in the
4000 men w'ithin, the last 'tour
by the Gazette the loss only ap-
not much 'note- 'than 1500. He
lw whether .the loss was not fairly,
:ountry was not afraid to know the
hiss, but it 'might be 'allowed to
IS it had really suffered, and what
'petted. He observed that a eharge
the senior and
.junior departmthies
'Ty Colleges. •In the junior depart-
'vs only the small number of four'
'weive young men on whom a public
Ulan was bestowed: This was a
Sher insignificant, when it was eon-
aiere 'was a standing army of 300,000
:git senior department there was a nutn-
IDOre -eottteinptiblyonly thirty
P. 6 ,40ti rose to state some objections
-al.ol,...qhhich had, been brought-to the
tinble Lord.'l He- thought that
'4'044 in the expene-es of the arniy
heeessary ; for if the expenditure
led to be as great as It had been'tor
'St, the Country would beinvolv-,
from which it could not. be easily
e was, however, surprisedto find,
ilhy retrenchment In the expenses.
't Was proposed by the Estimates
-Noble Lord, that it should'be
'crease,(. The. first-. increase was
hold Troops, cOmmonly called the
'n that body there was an
iincreas-
s,ooo/. This was an anglie"6l-.
!In amount, that the. Committee
Very seriously before they granted
of this great augmentation in
:c, was said to be the addition of
id these troops were said to be ne-
the corps were sent upon Foreign
!• But it had been allowed that
.roops Of a description fitted to be
11.41 i service. He himself in-
jug, on was,
account of his ignorance
,rs ; but every Officer with %Thom
th
d the subject, concurred in be-
t ott
however worse, ,they certain-
ter calculated for 'Foreigti service
les of casll, night have
their stea,d ; while
ere certainly better
than any others. from- their
,suited for the
Ihus seod-
GtJards broa,d, 1 had
'toe country
ro (1(1,iti01111 CXpCillle, while
city lessti
ably perfomed.
an, after the battle of Salts.-
tten to Government expressing a
einforeestienvof c-avalry, to enable
stile.
.the war more advantageously' on
The battle of Salamanca,-
the 22d of July; and the Life
iail until. October, and did not ar-
Wellington had retired upon the.
ugal. There certainly \vas snore
hrps which might 'have been sent..
would likewise have been more
ign service. There were in the
two thousand fOreign cavalry in
ice, whom, he thought might have
'er. He did not mean to speak
jealousy of the ntlinher of fo-
Ale British service; but he thought
of the foreign troops k the ser-
for,foreign
.service, it was cer
Y. Besides-, the foreign cavalry.
were only 1800 with our .army
inguished itself very much by its
Peninsula. If there was. so large-
Ti ea vah'y in the kingdoth as 2400,
vith Lind Wellington, he saw no
of those 2400 should not have
ad of the Life Guards. The ex-
hut the latter was enormous. The
stated that the augmentation of
dragoons to the amount of 210
ust 9000/. Such being the case,
lerstand Maw thp,addition of only
e Life. Guards shduld have cost
0,000/.. The. ne4t part of the ES-
he would call the attention of the
nissinn. It had been customary to
y Estimates, the number of the
.ayed at hoine, and also the number
h tras a point too essential to
The comparative numbers of
,e :Ind abroad had. of late years
;toed iit favour of the latter. In
r of troops at home 'Was 133;902,
etttployed at home in. 1.812 was.
IN iblc Lord had said a great.
vantages of having a .large staff
1r 'telling how necessary it was to.
rtaff abroad, be forgot the other
,position, and neglected to say,
abroad iegoired a large Staff,'
',()tne' required only a small Staff.
,2tatis Oflicers'at home was much
'e member of troops. There was
gene be:
lott bosts Staff Officers--
'kti,ap' I'd' Of
antl„l. ry, witnout any cavalry
tiY„..hirant.va4tie!'t-Generals Of nfany, with-
! 4;1411044
t: connuand.—(ger, hear.)—lt
Sslit asßnme, that a great part
ith ,of
ivzi, Vast
.o:mt,',ld not be dispensed
h4.t: the
sti the old
Which he object
Iti,4lo4aards 10,000/. fOr • • object 1 the 4t tePturing the
~ 144 ustito
at whigh hadbeen ins
tjai` lithhttiltaLat taetbe4esnt several preceding years.
tilde
0.., t mode would be to have
'ut ea;fi` of the sums expended on' 'the
te
rucik year, and that the Com-

?Mace sluould always vote the unit bat beep
expendvd in the preertlim..; year, and 110 t vote a
vague stun which might be much more than
requisite. Among the other large sums menthe„ ..L
in the Estimate was 209,000/. for t!„, supilt/t'of
'the Volunteer Corps-„thrOughout the iiingdont.-- •
lie thought that ever after the' establishment of
the Local Militia, voltmteerd had become unneces-
sary. From his owtAitiowledg,e, he wascouvine-
ed that these Volunteer Corps,' in many districts,
were merely in nominal. *existence. • When all the.
more honourable motives, which had originally
led. to the establishment of these eprus,•Were taken •
away, he feared that they were thew, merely kept
up as a means of avoiding enrollment -in'the Mili
tat., There was likewise a charge of 13,000/. for
the Volunteer Staff. if such.reductions as he al-
luded to were adopted, it would.enahlethe coun-
try
to curry on otfedsive :operations upoa • a largett
,scale. Such.a plan would be'much better than a
symem of defence, which had its origin in circum-
stances different from those hu which the couns.ry
was .now placed, and whit.li system of defence in -
all its parts, as well as with respect to thy; bea-
coni, erected on different points of, the coast Was
persisted in,, after the occasion . for it ceased* to
exist.

Mr. AprirszoToN said, that he wished to trouble
the Committee with only a few observations- on
some topics that had been urged by his Hon.
• Friend who had just sat down, and an-HonouP.
*able Gentleman. (Mr. Law), -who bad spoken
early in the debate,- whom he had many reasons
for having heard, •then for the first time, with
real pleasure, -though he tnust own it- would have.
been much greater, had not his opiniOnS' been so
much at variance with his own. That lion. Gem=
tleman had contended against the practice, of
making the Militia the medium. for recruiting for
the Line on Iwo grountisi tirsi, that it gave offence
to the Commanding Officers of the Militia, 'and,
secondly,- on account of the expellee Incurred by
• the' double. botinties. He begged leave: to assure
him, that very few of the- Militia Colonels re--
mained adverse to the measure, especially since it
had been Made, by .a Legislative Act, not a part
'of the military system of the country; and he
applauded the puhlie spirit Of those`wbo subdued
their prejudices, or conquered their -objections, in
deference to the consideration of the permanent
importance of increasing, by all possible means,'
the disposable force of 'Aim country. Tbis was,
,almost, tilt first national desideratum, , when- he
.considerect.the nature and extent of the war in
which we were engaged. - As to, the comparative
expence of recruiting direct' into ti Line, or
through the medium of the Militia, he could as-
sure' the House that. the difference was ieconsi-
dcrtble; notwithstanding time- double .bounties.
\He had made out an estimate from authentic-do-
cuments ; and be could ' demonstrate that in no
case the difference' exceeded between 4 and
pounds- per than, and that after the first volun-
teering froni the Militia, the expetice was nearly
equal.---The. Hon. Gent. just sat dbwn had express-
ed an opininn of the inutility and'-unneassary ex
pence of keeping imp the volunteer force of the'
country. Qf -the ificalcutable service rendered by
that meritorious body of men he could not ex-
press himself in terms ,of adequate 'panegyric.
Perhaps he might agree in some of his aonoura--
ble Friend's observations respecting them. • The
"subject bad been for stint° time under the con-
sideration of his Noble-Relation ; and he hoped
the Home would give him credit fur those having
beep sufficient reasons why any lie v arrangement
resPectiug them had not as yet been submitted to
its consideration. As to the Local Militia, a part
-of our defensiye force still more valuable, Lie ex-
Fpressed' in strong terms his surprise-, that his -lion.
riend should have even suggested -the propriety
of abstaining front calling them net this year,
when they consisted almost' entirely of raw re-
:crofts'—before they had even received their cloth-
before officers and /nen knew any thing
of each other. In case of any internal distur-
bance, they would' be little better, if. calbmd out
•to suppress it, than a mere rabble. Hp implored
.the House not to apply too rigidly the princiPles
'of economy to this valuable branch of our deler,.
sive force, which was as yet in. its- haancy ; and •
to bear in mind that, in the vicissitudes of human
affairs, of which we bud even recently such strik-
ing proofs, we 'might have occasion bitterly to
regret;- that in a moment of internal repose and
freedom t'roin external danger, we bad neglected
to.-fostor and improve that branch of our defen-
sive force, in which the public\ spirit of the
.country had so entirely committed itself, and on
which so much dependence was 'to be placed-in
ease of any such necessity. Tti think. this impos-
sible was tile' height of
Mr..lNEsstswi-La said there were two points,
upon which he wished to wake a few observations ;
the. increase in the Household troops was. otaly,
900, and yet the increase of expense was 38,0001:-.
The proportion of cavalry, in the increase was 400.
he pay given to thetn, was-greater than to. any--
other corps. The expense- 01 „recrinting
thought was extravagant. It was at xlie.rate of
341. for each man. Thereeruiting establishment
was mk more expensive one than any one in the comm.;
try. The Staff had been considerably increased,
without any correkpaniding increase of the arms/.
There was also 20751. a-year allowed to Gen. De-
laney for services not svell.performed., _ln;the 'fo-
reign corps the increase Since last year was 1422,
mind the inc,rease of expellee wa5‘58,892/. • This
he thought too much. The Military College he
approved Of very much.' it Nir,fiS an honour to the
country,; but the expellee hi some. branches, par-
ticularly that for fnel, was too-great. In one year
it unmounted to 40001, The estimate for the Bur-
racks in Ireland he could not vote until the details
were before the House.

Mr. CIIEEVEY said, he would propose a decreaie
in the expenditure of the country, by throwing
overboard one of the Paymasters of the Forces.
•Tbe Bill for the abolition of sinecures had been
rejected by the Lords, on the ground that it em-
braced too many Objects'. It was his intention
therefore to 'remove them one by one, and the
House should, in his opinion, act with respect to
the place in question, as they had clone with re-
spect to the Vaymaster of Widows' Pensions, and
when they •came• to the seventh ,resolution, he
shonld ptopose to leave at ZOO/. the salary
of the Noble Lord opposite (Somerset), and his
Deputy.

140.111CLIAVLES SODitERET said, that unacciistoin-
ed as he-was to address the House, lie shoirld not
trouble them upon thepresent. occasion, were it
not.- for the allusion made to the.office which- hehad
rlat honoer of filling. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Creevey), stated; bathe founded his proposal with
respect to one of the Paymasters, upon theireport
of the Select CoMmittee ape's Sinecure
There- was a Bill now in progress throogh ths
House upon the subject:. ,It did therefore appear
to him prematuee, if not novel, to tall for a deci,
sion. upon one particular part of the Bill. He
doubted whether the removal of one of the Pay-
Masters would have the effect &Sired. *He would
ask them whether they, would 'pass such a censure
on the memory of Mr. Burke, as to resolve that•
the salary of an office• should he rediked which he,
did not consider overpaid by 700 G/. a year ? The
salary was not 'increased mice Mr. Burke's time,
it was only divided between two, and this divi-
sion gave additional security to the public. •,
Mr. lao:sa, adinitted, that netthe Cmoruittee al-
tinted to, the abolition of one of the Paymaster-
ships was recommended ; but that office was not
under the .same, circumstances us the Paymaster-
shiP of Widows Pensions. Thelatter was-ae office
in the gift of the Crown, the abolition of which had
been frequently *recommended to Parliament. The
salary of Paymaster of the Forces had not been at
nil increased.' :In theyear 1715, when the office
was held by .the Earl of Lincoln,. the emolument
of the office was 3730/. a-year, and so it couti-
nuedlol7B2, .when. Mr. Burke brought in his Bill
to regulate the Army Pay Office. In 1.783 thelees
were abolished, and the salary settled at -four
thousand 'pounds per annuin. In the Commit-
tee on Sinecure Plac:s, after 'full consideration
(if the nature of the fiziffice, and the labours at-.
*fled. to t it, At was determined that the sa..
lary of. Payniaster ought not to be reduced.—
Wirer) he came into
,the office he found angtrreai
of 23 yeaa• standing, for in truth no account had,
beeu passed since the time of Mr. Burke. , That
gentleman, however great, his talents in other re-
spects, was, perhaps, -on that very sic:count the
least fitted of any Man for the dry details Ofollice.
Since he -came into the situation, fourteen years
accounts had seen passed. Since the_ adoption of
the new -system in that office, the home accounts
'for 1809% 10, and 11; had, been passed, and that
for 1812 was now in progress. The foreign ac-.
counts Were'in the same state of forwardnes.-:---
The result of the plan at, present purseed was;
that 'no-irregularity Or arrear enual arise without
the knowledge or the Auditors of Public Ac-
counts. He could assure the House that since he
held the situation lie had been never absent from
it more than one week together. Such an office
could not be thought to be considered a sinecure.
it was said that the 'whole of the business fell
upon him--,he could however assure them, that.
whenever* there was occasion*. his Noble Friend
(Somerset) Offered to share the labour.
.1.16 was
convinced that the abolition of the-office Would
not contribute io any public advantage.. The re-
:,
apousrodity of it had been snitch in.-Teased, and be
hoped therefore the House would not consent to
deprease the salary. ,
it r El, did not abject to the place or to
the salery ; what he objected to .was, that the.
office should he -divided, for the purpose *at creat-
ing two ParliamentarY places. .It was said, that
the Right Hon: elientlefean (Mr. bong) •receieed
only a salary 1 20001.; bet he had 'a pension, of
20001. more. :

Mr. LONG said, across the table that the pen-
sion was only 15001.,
Mr. CREEVIir answered; that it was 150 W. be-
'sides a house which was atileast 5001. more. It
whs, true; that in 1806 be' voted the Estimates
without objecting to ,the Payinastersbip ; but
he objected to it now, on the I.,,;i'oand of a. 'Re-
solution passed in a Committee that sat in 1810.
Mr. }IILEY ADDINGTON assured the 1101Ig4 that
the pension granted to the. [tight limmurable
Gentleman •(Mr. Long) was given at the viaticu-.
far desire„,Of his Majesty,. for the services Mr;
14011 g had performed as Secretary of the,Treasui y.:
Lord PALMERSTINZ rose to, reply. He could
'not at an'eonsider it unfair that the Militia ‘sere
allowed, to volauteer into the regular service.
They ‘yere allowed four:days to reemisider the
step they had adopted, and every care was taken
-by the Commander in Chief that in, the course of
the volunteeringf •no unfair proceeding should he
had recourse to.—Some 'facetious observations
had been made on the dress of the quards,,Who,
had been' called Orlalidos' and Rinaldos. He did
not doubt but they would equal the valour of those
'heroes when they came into action. • Their cloth-
ing. was paid' for partly by the Colonel, and
`partly by stoppages of ,their money. The
various alterations made in their dress were
effected, not to make &them appear. fine Gentle..
men in the, streets, hut because it was
thonght.they would be conducive their-comfort,
and beneficial to the service. Their helmets had
been called fanta3tical and theatrical, but when
the Committee reffeeted On the evils to • which
the poor eav,ilty WC t. suojccttal, expostAL m their.
little cocked hats to the effects of the rain, or los-
ing them, from the difficulty of keeping theta
fixed on the head, and consequently going bare
headed into battle, it would be felt that it was
1121101 better that they should be supplied with. a'
comfortable helmet, which could not be knocked
off, arid the metal of whivh would turn tie 'edge
of a sword. Ile denied that , the foreigners 'in
_bur service increased in proportion to the re,st
of the' army. If it were practicable to augment
our army with English. soldiers- to that amount
• to which- it was desirable it should extend, he
was. confident there was no one %rho would
not prefer such an army to an army partly com-
posed of foreigners., , It was, however,• With Go-
vernment a question not of option, but' of fieCCS-
',shy, whether foreigners should be admitted into
our service. Engaged in " a sanguinary contest
LS ith an enemy whose resources were almost un-
limited, as, our array could 'not be recruited be-
yond a given point 'with Englishmen, it Was ti-
cessary to make up the number, required by the
scireumitauces of the times with foreigners I,vllo
claimed , our protection:. Taking this into -con»,
sideration, and comparing-the casualties, it would
be found that the foreign soldiers bad suffered' in
proportion to, their number,-full as much as the
British, or, rather more. It had been observed
that the returns in the Gazette& differed from the

. •
returns laid befo:'e that house: watt 0)10'4.,
to-he he accounted' for, as the Gazettes did not
contain dischargei, nor the desertlons
Of which took place here), but'he-cooldauiethc
'Committee the GaiCttts w' re entitled to the
fullest and •most confidence; and he knew
net ,of one instance of intentional-faiihlettsaess,in
any return which they had contained. That wis
.stakes might occur in the hurry of Making up the
returns 'after a great battle; it was easy to con-
ceive; on the paFt• of the Officers ; but intention-
-ally they never eoncelled the full exteut of :-14e
loss sustained, and every -ease received Was• pub- '
fished in the Gnzette. It_ was' a subject of regret
that no dintinution of expence appeared on the.
present EStimates, but this. he thought ,Could Licit
have been expected at a' period when we were •
.called upon us strain every nerve to offer effectual-
resistance to the enemy. At A tune when 'cult
great efforts were called for, a redaction thee
Estimates could not be 'looked for ; and he Ich it
Avoilld be trifling with the House to hold fent-
. them a hope or an encouragement to expect that
any great saving, in the present circumstances of
the world, could be effected. It had been said that
immediately on the receipt of \ the news of :the, •
battle of iSalamanca; cavalry ought. to have been
sent out to Lord Wellington, to enable him to ad-
vance
in pursuit of the enemy. Now what was
the, state df the case Iminediately on receiving
neWa-,,0f that action, Ministers sent out, not ca-
valry, hat a corps of infantry ; and these, 60110
sent with the utmost expedition, did not juitt
Lord Wellington till he .had commenced his reH
treat, nor indeed, till in point of fact his retreat
might
be said to be concluded. ,Froin this it was
clear that no advantage would have arisen.froin
sending out any other body of cai'alry instead of
the Life Guards, as such assistance could nut have
reached Lord Wellington in time to enah:e' him to
advance, .nor time enough to assist hint in his, re-
treat.
16 ans•ker to the' observations thrown out
on the conduct. of MinisterS, for not sending out
a German regiment of cavalry. be had to state, e
that three out of four regintentsPof German cavalry •
in our service tvere in the Peninsula. With respect
to the 10,0001. called for, for repairs of the Horse
Guards, to which so much objection had been
made, he wished to state 'that this included not
only the repairs done at 'the ,Horse Guards, but
also those which came under :be cognizanc...., of
the Sunieyor of the Horse Guards, namely, thOse
at the Pay ,Office, at one of the Secretary of
States Olfices, and those done.to the Barracks
at .Knightsbridge, and to certain other buildirigs
He then proceeded to defend the propriety of call- .
ing out the LOtal Militia this year On this head
no diminution could at` present be effected. The •
'recruiting establishments which had been noticed
were Of important use, and in every respect he-
cessary. The Veteran Battalioas, consisting of
Foreigners, had been formed, of invalids ,who •,
were not fit for service, and whoth it would haVe -
been an act of manifest !cruelty, ir the present,
state, of the Continent, to have sent•to thew own
country. The item was new'to these Estimates,
LtilYing been brought front 'the Army Extritortli-
naries, Its amount Was about 15,00/. The eX
petiee of the Military Collegelhe admitted to be
great ; belt he contended it was an establishment
of great value to the country, us he thought the
Cadets quite adequate to furnish the army with-
a stapply of well educated oilieers. The Irish
Barrack Estimates he defended, as being neces-T
sail from the' state of the coantry, and he had
no hesitation in saying, they effused a saving to
the country. - He - concluded', 'shortly noticing
'what lead been said' with respest to the Pay
master-General; and expressing a hope, that a 3
improvements were being atteamed in the g,.:3e-
ral system., the House would %vat berore they'
made any alteration sin one particular part of it, .
rill theiwhole was before their.
Mr. -WHITEREAp and Lord CASTLEREAGH. MIA-
,
tut3l4 explained. . •
Mr, BANKES thought there might' be a dedue—
tion of ti or. NAM/. out- of the Military :ex-
Fences of the year. He estimated the expense of
calling onethe•Volunteers at 209,0001., and the .
exercise of the Local Militia At 450,0001., and in-
sisted that these forces were equally available for
service by its being known where to procure them
at tl shortest notice, as by the drilling and
rading. He did not expect to gain assent to this
proposition noW, but he hoped Gentlemen would
consider the matter. He then made omne re-
marks against the doable office of Paymaster, in-
sisting that it was at once inconsistent with eco-
nomy, and was highly inefficient. •
14.40 CASTLEREAGH rose again to observe, that
Lord Wellington had expressed the strongest ap-
probation of the Life Guards which had been
sent out to him.

, Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the Noble Lord
{Castlereagh) as to the expediency of keeping up
the Local Militia, as a strong and permanent de-
ilefice of the country. He then condemned in the
strongest terms the dress of the Cavalry, and said
there was but One feelingout of the Rouse on-this
,nhject. He denied that permanent barracks were
I.•ss expensive than temporary, because permanent
barracks mmt be a dead and useless chargo in
time of pence. If the Paymaster's dory could be
performed 'by one person, it ought to be perfoun-
ed by one person.
Lord Mttvbx followed to the same effect.
Lard PALTSILgsTorr explained, that 'what lie had
said with respect to small savings referred to the
impossibility of reducing the great bulk of tit&
estimate.

111 r. I-IttsKtssoN wi,hed the postponement (if
the vote, us to the Home Stall', till more informA-
tion could be obtained.

Lard CASTLEREAfiaI expressed a contrary wish,
as he thought there was no probability of u
data ot this !Ma of the expenditure. There %Vera
110 t IeSS thUll 130,000 Melt till bonie service in
Engimid and Ireland. This body tequired'a largo
superintending Staff.
The House then divided on If. Creevey's
Amendment,

Fur it 43—Agaiitst. it 124-7—Majt4ity against it

Oct our return to the Gallery, Mr. It. Tuoabv•
NO moved for the production Of some paper 6 rn-
lati,ve to the East xu<ita Affairs ; and Lord CA-i-
TLEnEiGIi, postponed his notice on this /11,00iTCr
till Friday se'nnight.
`The other orders were then disposed of, arid
the House 4pm-fled at half-past twelve o'clock

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