The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-02 00:00:00

4°, Hone I"i°n hich the House had given on this subject, hoped
kusres .. Member would not think him chargeable with
top',et to him,
his if he declined entering into any reply
speech, and called upon the House to proceed to the
Peac%ical matter in hand.
Tdr. D. BROWNE should second the resolutions, not
beca'ase he agreed in all their details, but because they in-
l'o4ed the great principle of the total extinguishment of
tit'aes in Ireland.
Mr. R. PLUNKETT said that as the Noble Lord was
not disposed to give up the appropriation principle, and as
that side of the House (the Opposition) would not agree
to such a principle, he did not understand what the Noble
:Lord proposed to himself in going on with the Committe.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not concur with the course
taken by the Hon. Member for Dundalk, because, though
his resolution would abolish tithes, they would give full
compensation for them, and he did not understand why
money should be taken out of one pocket to put it into
the otl'.er. The resolutions were contradictory, and not
only 'contradictory but. impracticable. He therefore sug-
gestrld the propriety of withdrawing them, and at once
Pro ceeding to the consideration of the main question.
Dr. BO WRING thought that every proposition of his
lion. Friend, the Member for Dundalk, was entitled to the
approval of the House of Commons. His eloquent Friend,
the Member for Kilkenny, had argued that the expediency
of putting ;at end to the tithe system was a different thing
from its justice. He (Dr. Bowring) could not perceive
the distinction. In legislation justice was expediency and
expediency was justice.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN had already stated his opinion was,
that the fairest way of dealing with the question would be
to raise a land tax, which should fall equally on persons of
all persuasions.
Mr. GRATTAN in part agreed and in part differed
from the resolutions of his Hon. Friend ; but he thought
the better course for him to take would be to withdraw his
solutions.

Mr. CRAW FORD, in explanation, said the proposi-
tion be now brought forward was suggested to him by the
Learned Member for Kilkenny himself.
Mr. FINN had always maintained that after the lives of
the present incumbents the Protestant Establishment ought
to cease to exist.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For proceeding to the Order of the Day 51
For the Resolutions

Majority —33
The House having gone into Committee on the Irish
Church Bill,
Lord MORPETH moved the first clause.
Mr. FRENCH objected to the clause.
Mr. JEPHSON said the clause imposed a great hard-
ship on those who had abstained from pressing their claims
to tithes. He was a tithe-owner, and had forborne to press
his claims ; but finding he should lose his property if he did
so longer, he had been forced to give instructions for pro-
ceedings to be taken for their recovery.
After a few words from Mr. S. O'BRIEN,
Mr. O'CONNELL regretted the Hon. Member for
Wenlock was not present, who the other night had taunted
those who entertained any idea of such things as Irish
rights. If a measure contained a particle of relief for Ire-
land, that particle was assuredly destructive to it. He res-
pectfully submitted to the Government that if the parties
claiming arrears of tithes did not object to allow 30 per
cent., the better way might be to sacrifice the remainder of
the million.
Lord MORPETH was quite willing to take the subject
into consideration. He did not see any difficulty in the
way of carrying this clause into effect, with respect to those
tithes which might accrue after the passing of this Bill.
Till he saw a satisfactory settlement of this question was
likely to take place, he could not hold out any hope that
this House would consent to a further advance of money.
Lord STANLEY thought the objections to the clause
would be removed by striking out the words "hereafter pro-
hibiting the recovery of."
Lord MORPETH acceded to the amendment sug- •
gested by the Noble Lord, for striking out the words pro-
hibiting the recovery of tithes.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished it to be recollected what
was the intention of this Bill—it was intended to pacify
the people. By consenting to strike out the words referred
to, his Majesty's Government allowed litigation to remain,
and all suits for the arrears of tithes to continue. When
there was a wish for the pacification of the country, he was
surprised that any paltry consideration as to the saving of
the remnant of the million could be thought of.
Mr. SHAW could engage on the part of the clergy that
there would be no objection upon their part to the settle-
ment of the arrears.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the question to be
disposed of was whether or not the legal suits for the ar-
rears were to be permitted to be continued. The sugges-
tion
to be made was, were they to allow the legal rights to
remain, or the arrears to be compounded, by allocating the
remainder of the million ? Now, he must say he was not
prepared to make any such proposal, while he regretted to
hear that there was a chance of the continuation of vexa-
tious suits. He could not forget that the Right Hon.
Member for the University of Dublin had spoken against
the loan of the million as one of the greatest injuries that
could be done to the clergy.
Mr. SHAW maintained that he was right in the opinion
he had formerly expressed upon the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL remarked the Right Hon. Gentle-
man refused when tithes were in a precarious situation ;
and now, when there was a lull, when the public mind was
pacified, he was willing to accept that which he had formerly
refused. The conduct of those who supported the tithes
between both these periods was written in blood.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Upon clause 2 being proposed,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN asked whether landlords who had been
paid out of the million could recover arrears from their
tenants?
Lord MORPETH replied they could not do so without
incurring a penalty ; but persons had been already paid
their demands out of the million.
Lord STANLEY observed that as soon as the law
passed there came in lists of persons who made application
for the money, and which it actually astonished him to read.
There were some of those whom he thought would have
sooner cut off their right hands than applied for the grant
tinder the circumstances then existing. He hoped a sense
of honour would induce them to return the money. Of all
the applications that had been made, he did not know but
of one refusal. He knew of one case where an individual
returned himself as a tithe defaulter.----(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) There was actually an individual
who, r,mongst the list of all the persons who were de-
faulters, placed amongst that list his own name.—(Hear,
and latighter.) An application was made to him to know
bow there could be a person having the same name as him-
•self, and beinga defaulter. His answer was, that he felt
tound to include himself, and for this reason, that he had
not paid the tithes to himself.--( Laughter.) He thought
it then his duty to put his name down as a defaulter, be-
cause he he had not pa
He himself.—(Continued laughter.)
bad (Lord Stanley) staked his honour upon this fact. He
much it from an individual upon whose honour he placed as
confidence as upon his own.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Mr. O'CONNELL would wish to bring forward an
amendment of which he had given notice. What he would
propose to do, would be this—that the tithes should be re-
duced 40 per cent.—he would have the deficiency supplied
act of the money collected by the Woods and Forests, from
Ireland, and generally expended in beautifying London.
prom that sum he would take 50,000/. to make up the
deficiency. This would make the income of the clergy
equal to what it is under this Bill, and it would also afford
the means for appropriation. The appropriation was most
important, as it would mitigate the objections entertained
against the payment of tithes. There was, he said, no
possibility of the Bill passing, as there was a determination
in the other House not to do anything- to quiet the coun-
try. 'rhe other House had linked itself with the
ascendancy party—of that party who appeared determined
to sink or swim. He did not think that there was much
buoyancy about it ; but this connection was most disastrous
---certainly disastrous to Ireland at this moment, and likely
to be equally so to that House at a future period.—(Hear.)
Ile should not press his motion to a division.
Upon clause 9 being proposed,
Lord STANLEY took occasion, as the Bill was said to
be a final measure, to congratulate the House on the pros-
pect of finality afforded to it by the division which took
Place last evening. It proved that agitation upon this
question would be continued.
Lord MORPETH was somewhat astonished to hear an
apposition raised against this measure on the ground of its
teing a temporary one, coming from his Noble Friend who
bad so very recently supported a proposal for vesting the
rights, Property, and duties of the Municipal Corporations
of Irelands in the hands of Commissioners for a temporary
Period, that was, until other arrangements were made for
their administration.
Lord
fer STANLEY said there was a very strikirr, dif-
te ence between the two cases, the one being avowedly a
mporary measure, the other proposing to he of a final
nature.—(Hear.)
lin('
Lord J. RUSSELL said that though a measure of this
•
-t . might certainly be in many respects a final measure,
might still he open in some points to future arrangement.
Clause 9 was then agreed to, so also was clause 10.
Mun clause
F. SHAW objected strongly to the re-opening of
tithe.
at pr compoesent sitions, asteds involving worse hardships than any
winch
exi.
O'BRIEN said it was a complete farce to go on
talking about the details of the Bill in the way they were
now doing, when it was
quite certain that the Bill would
toot pass through the other House of Parliament ; and