The Sun.
London, England, 1807-04-16 00:00:00

ki

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE 'OF PE,nS,'
WEDNESIiAY, AP2IL 15.
'UNIVERSITY OF DUBLIN.

The DUKE of CUMBERLAND, wished to say a few
words-in. consequence of what had fallen from a ,
Noble Lord on Monday: night, on the subject of
the Petition from the .University of Dublin. It had
been inferred that he, as Chancellor of that Univer-
sity, had,nsed his Majesty's name for the purpose of,
influencing the University, to agr-to such .a Petition;
but he had explicitly to state, that no such use had
been made of his Majesty's name,
Lord KINNAIRD (the Noble Lord alluded to) can-
didly admitted, that though his. Majesty's nari.e had
,been'tuade use of in the Correspondence, it did not
appear to have been improperly• introduced. -
The DUKE Of CUMBERLAND said a iew words in
explanation ; , , . • .•
The-Bishop of Mei,ern was :abJut .to offer some.,
oVstriotions on the suiojcd,..wilen Lord. Hollaed
spoke 'to order, and the Lord Ch.aocellor joined •him
in the opinion that
,the, conycsr:sation Wal irregular,
there being no subject of the kind, nor any Motion,
before the House.

Lord HAWKESBUILY gave. notice that :be.sliou d,
to-morrow, rtiove the l'han4s of the House to Ad-
miral Stirling and Sir Saatue,l Auchtnuty.,,. for .their
gallant condu6l, St•ks.- ' in. the capture of. Aloute
Video. " •

On the suggestion of the tiORD CHANCELLOR, the.
Cominittee on the Scotch Judicature Bilt.was.ad-
.
jhurned till Friday, the Comn)ittee appointed to
search respecting the:mode of the s:otch Judges'
sitting; Bcc..had not yet finished theiOnqUiries..
his mind, the mode ;of those and the Irish. Judges'
sitting, &c. ought to be regulated by At of Pailia-
meat.
The Bills on. the Table were. forwarded, and tie
House adj ourned till to-morrow. - -

, 110U.SE. OF COMMONS.
• WP,DNESDAY, :1.5: '
The House_proceeded•to ballot tor' a Comtnittee
to take into consideration the Petition complaining
of an undue Return for the Borough of East Looe.
Soon, after Mr. White, appeared -at the Bat' with
the reduced List. The Nanies were as follow:
.
Lord J. -Campbell, G. Longman, Esq.
Hon. E. Finch, R. Tigne,,Esq.
Sir Frederic, Bart. R. Price,- Esq.
W..lVl'Dougall, Esq. A. Campbell, Esq.
F.:Foljamb:, Powell Leslie; Esq.
- k. Cartwright, E.g. Sir Ic. Barclay, Bart.
Lord Li'snicre,
W. Jacob, Esq. Right Hon. H. Addington.

NOMINEES.

On the MOtion of the.CFEANCELLOR of the Ex-
CREQUEft, thes.4ortSe was ordered to he. called over
to-morrow, and the defaulters were: ordered to 1),:
taken into "cuitody..
FloaitovsE brought up the Report.rof the
Loan interest: ill ;
which was agreed to, and or-
dered to be read a third time to-morrow. _

The Innkeepers' Rates .13n1 was' read a second
time, and ordered to be committed to-morrol.v.
The Customs. Fees -Regulat;n Bill, and the Irish
Loan bill, were read a third time and passed.
CHANGE IN HIS MAIESTY's COUNCILS.

Mr, LYTTLETON, in prefacing the Resolution

•
which he should do himielf-the honour 'to Move, .'
t would avoid, as much as possible,.repeating'any of
the topics that were urgedin the important and me-,
morable Debate of Thursday lan, althoUgh so much
extraneous matter had on that evening been intrO-
-duced, that it world be difficult completely to steer
dear of such a repetition. ' On the question that had
he must be allowed to say a
did -he lament, hat it had been
in which it had been, not so
receiswip:tl4l,o,tiireidnd,sid. :nscilitliesieseepdwiy,ay.
much on account of the importance 'of the question
-
itself, important as it undoubtedly was, as because
it 'seemed that the House were dispose:l to evade the
decision of a great Constitutional question ; a cow-
-ardice in the Howse of Commoits which atre&ed him
beyond expression.. By their,condua, it appeared
-as if the House were ready to, recognize a principle •
-which would vest in the Crow-u a power clearly un-
constitutional,, because not responsible ; a power
which differed in _nothing from that ossumed by 41e,
ttiarts, and against :Which our ancestors had- so stre-.
ntlouslY and so iticrcessfully contended. Not hopiug,.
hOwever, that he„.could influence. the House to
change their determination on this subje4, he must
satisfy himself with submitting to them A Resolu-.
tion which had no dire& application to the Royal
Prerogative, and to which he, could not but- think
that the House must accede, when he-consider-
ed- the majorities by which the measures of the
late Ministers lad, been supported. The Coun-•
try had seen the sudden and unexpe&ed removal
from power of Ministers, apparently possessing the
full confidence, of the House and the Country, and.
carrying on the affairs of State as prosperously as the
situation of Europe would admit. It would be
-worth while to inquire winit was the aCtual state of
Europe, and how far it was of consequence that the
affairs-of this Country shOuld be well: condu&ed.—
'Had the/state of Europe been so altered within these
few months, had the security of this Country become
so well established, that we could with.safety entrust
the administration of it-to any set of men whatever?
or rather was it not expedient that an - humble and
dutiful, but firm Remonstrance,' should be carried up
to the Throne apinst the removal of men; who, in
the present circumstances, were the best qualified
to hold the helm of the State ? The Mini,ters whoM it
had pleased his Majesty, or, as our ancestors used to
-say, whom his Majesty -had been advised to remove,
during the shore period of their remaining in office,
had.done every thing in their power to call forth the
energies of the people, and to unite all hands and
hearts in the service of the Coinitry. -Their con
dad, considered in every point of view, entitled

i-)l3tibil.).l-tt I

PRICE SIX:'E:`('E. 1)11,

them to the public estimation and gratitt4e. In the
financial department of the State, one -which re-
qUired,such, careful management, they not only;con-
duoted themselVeS with economy and discretion,
but supported and carried-into eifeA - the• appoipt-
went of a. Coo mittee of Financei(tirs;. 141:;;gested by
.an Honourable Friend of hiS),- be; onl• apparent '
means of prohingi,the .wOunis of the Coantry, a :d
ascertaining the -remedyr-which it would be nece4- .
sary to apply. In their offer tq negotiate with,
France, while they evinced a spirit' of conAintion,
they avoided every thing that could 1.)',.- deemed de-
rOgatoryfrom the characler :of this Country, -and,
withdrew their Ambassador :the' moment that a '
continuance in the Negotiation became . incon4stent
with the National honour. In the achninistration Cf,
the army; by limiting the term of Service of the re-
cruit, and by more a,i), apportioning-the rewards . f
the veteran; they had adopted a syStel) much m ire'.
Cwasohaut ,ro hoilyan neiture than thi:t W tnt,,ir pre.-
0.,,..: :
~, , i ,
dece:;;sors, 5..P.1: knew successors Lie k.,,y,:01ry, 1-.71:1 opt
seen much;` but it was itnpoisible to apl,-e th:, o .i
t,,.k0 .public steps which they had as, yet inken. T!o-17.
,
.were.the.first :Ministers who had brol_..gOt l'.'.. r 50..,,-;
reign to:the Bar of•the House or Com:l}Yos. an 1 ,-,.1.=.,_
skulking behind. the 'fi.'orone, had int-esrscd .!... -:,,,,,, :1
robes bet weerr themselves aul their con sti t u...i -)7:::: r. 4!
spoasibility. • it WM •IRICVOiIy fie.:tiiiry t!ilt tae ,
House ,Sboula sliew -their al.prola.ttiwt :: '.:),! :Ate
Ministers, btrauae taey hat tt.,, _,..1 ),' ::),L.14
of every descliption,,!.- Eve,u isi th: :).., ‘i, er,.
Cabinet Minutes, imparted to Neih• ,: s;;'lli' i,, ••
n:.'l
%, • . . ,-,
sonic perjured Coup'. diet-, had. been an v,-,..t, ,: ~
tilated, for the mere purpose of inisrepi‘:., ~: ,
and on that misrepresentation
.a filnatic.il c:., - ..I
been. raised from one end of the.. kin:; ,o,tl 1,
the other. With regard. tO; the declaration made
by the Right Honourable; Poritiermin •opposit,, or
rather, to the significant. threat t krOwl3 out by n:,i, of
dissolution, should the House not ,accede to measures
which he`rnight_ ropose, or, more ,properly spe.ik-
ing,Timpiise, he Wished to .know how often that
menace Was to be repeated ? '' As often as it sh(!mid
seem to'..hi4 Majesty's Ministers that the ii-use
was sot disposed to.fall in with their views: Was '
that Constitutictnal ? - .his ',part, he. was not
sent to - the House .-of Commons to court eittiktr
the, Crown or-the Ministry. ,Were a Dissoltuion to
take place, be should return - to his Conatituents,
satisfied with the protest.-which he !Lid entered
against the: late proceedings, and no: doubting that
his Constituents' would sanaion that protest ; if not,
he should , not' regret the loss of their trust. l'he
Resolution which he shahid .now submit to the
House must stand on its o%it merit 5 it- cOuld.derive
i
.no recommendation frotair, 'proposer, wi-ic, po7scss-
•ed.nothing except a enara:':ter unstained by party
• views, and anxious only fur the security •cf the Con-
stitution, -and _the- hlppitiess of his Country. I-le
concluded by moving- the fc.)llo.;vittig Resolution :--s
" `first this 'Fluk.*c, cwsidering a firm and elicitat .ivitni.:"
nistration as indispensaalk necessary in the present im?ort:,,it
crisis of Public A illkirs, has,sath with the deepest regret toe
late Change in.his.Majesty's (.7unciis."
1711 r. LUBBEltrscconded the Ni-ition. His Ho-
nourable Friend having taken it'g.CllQral.Vieltr, Of the

state of public affairs, renl.2rt,d it unnecessary fur
him to trouble the House at any length OA that sub
jea, A Cho,:- 3110W:Id tlut the' present was an
;alarming Crisis; :1H.;...1g1).the Honourable Gentlemen
opposice had as erred that the late Ministry succeeded
to a ,bed of roses, they would hardly be foUnd ready
to say that they had left a bedofroses to them i• and
yet, in some respeet.s, the situation of Government
was less thorny thin at the period when the 1-it
AdMinistration had entered upon office. Touching
-Upon the IV.,:otiation with France, on the rn.i!la."e-
nient of the Finances, and on. the condua of :he,
Naval and Military Force of the Country, he
_con-
! tended, that on all these pOints the late Ministers
were 'entitled to tht national gralitude. It lied b:en
said that they had been inadive' in atneditig assist-
ance to our Allies by Sr bsidk,'s and Expeditions.
'Subsidies he allowed that they had not granted, but
• by the use of that it) its, proper place, con ti-
toted the chara:Acristic Strength: of Great Britairi,
j hi meant the'N, avy, they li a,l-etreekl a Ith.);(POwer-
, fal and important C6-operation. He expatiated at
some length on the questibu which had oce?,4ieneTd
. the dismiscal of the slate A',itiinistration, eon-•
tended that they had" evinced the tatuost flan' ne'ss
cs ,and loyalty. He deprecated any pledge,su h a i hat
which had-been demanded olthcin,
that the present Ministers, by their acceptance of
office, had virtually entered into tht pledge. After
conktrasting the characlers :of the intlivil ials coin-
posing the t wo Administrations, he expressed his
• hope, that should any thing in 'the present night's
debate incline the House to declare their favoiarable
opinion of the conduCt of hiS Majesty's late MiniSters,
they would not be deterred from the declaration of
that opinion by.:the unconstitutional menaces,
unpa-
ralleled in the annals of the country, which had been
thrown out the.other evening.by a light Hon. Secre-
tary.
of State.
Mr. MILILS, in a, very eloquent speech (we be-
lieve a maiden one), oppbsed, the motion. Although
the question 'and :the observations to which it, had
given rise., extend.ed to the detail' of all- the aels
of the late Administration, it ought. yet to be re-
. colleeled that most of those at had before been,
singly considered and approved, of by ,the House.
Before he proceeded he would make one observation
on the form of the Resolution,
.whichi.dA not appear
to hiM to be calculeed to include in the concurrence
to it. all those
,whom the Hon. Move:; must certainly
be desirous to include.. It containt:d this proposition,
that because the late Administrati,'..m had in nia.ny
points deserved well of the country, their
dis-
tuissal was not expedient or necessary.
it follow,that because the,House, or,any _Members of
the House, had approved of part of •the contina of
the late Ministers, they must necessarily extend their
approbation to that' part of their 'condo& which oc-
casioned their distaissal Certainty not.; and the

Honourable Mover must therefore Forfeit the sup-
. port of those who, while they applauded the.
late Ministry in Several points of their Adminis-
. thtiOn, were not disposed to give to, that 'Adrni-
' nistration thenaunqualified approbatitin. He would
not, on this occasion, go into an examination of the
merits of the late Administration, or of tbe circum-
stances which led -to their dismissal. A particular
re6ew of their public eats, few as they have been,
it would require more than one night to accom-
plish .; and a general review might be produaive
,of a delusive inferenth. •Whether the war had
been carried on with the aetivity which the atiiiiirs
nf Europe demanded? Whether every possible means
bad been used :to excite the energies( of the people
at home ? Whether the ' financial system had been'
=ranged with ability ? Whether the recent accusa-
tions against a gallant Officer had-beeie protopted
by private prejudice rather than -by public• duty
These were point, on which he_ would not presume
to determine. \Vial regard to the measure so honour-
able to humanity, which had at length been carried.
into .effect—the Abolition of the Slave Trade (altho'
the stigma of having allovVed it to remain so long
could never be effaced)—the glory of that measure
belonged to his Hon. Friend, in whose philanthropy
it originated, and by. whose unwearied exertions it
had at length been brought to a successful issue.—
That the late Admi eist ration possessed ability he was
ready to allow, but that ability, however great, by
no means ,stultitied their opponents ; whose mee
sores, if calculated, as.he was convinced they would.
be, for the advantage of the country, the House, he
trusted, would not suffer to be impeded by the ope-
ration of paripepirit. With regard,te what had (teen
termed the tereas of a Right Hon Gentlern-an, he
had said nothing that could be new to the House
expectations of .a Dissolution had been very generally
formed. Was the alAence of disguise censurable ?
Besides, the Right Hon. Gentletuan did not make
use of the expression which ha::: been alluded to as a
threat; those alone converted it into a threat whi,
siwiatiact, that by,any declaration from any man, ithe
Hotese of Commons could be deterred from doing
their duty. With respect to the conduet of the pre-
sent Administration, he was confident that by an
anxious desire,' to obtain Peace, if an lerineurible
Peace were attainable ; if an ;honourable Peace were
not attainable, by -a vigorous prosecution of the war
in conjunction with our Allies—by a wise and per-
severing Attention to the proper management of the
domestic concerns of thecountry, and by that elo-
quence which would enable them 10 refute their an-
tagonists, and to maintain the excellence of their own
measures, his Majesty's present Ministers would se-
cure an influence matte Hoese, Over which the vice-
lence of opposition would be unable to triumph. Td
what did the present MotiOn tend ? Not to shew
that the Hbuse approved of several parts of the con-
di-la of the late Ministers, for that approbation had
been expressed by their votes. Not to infohn the
King of thy it merits, for, according to the statement
made by a Noble Lord, his Majesty had expressed
his approbation of their condo& up to the circum-
stance which led to their dismissal. The House had
not been told of the answer made to the: approbation
so expressed by the s,overeign. Would it not have
been proper for the late Ministers, on quitting office,
to assure his- Majesty, that in retiring from his ser-
vice, it was still their wish to support his.c..4overn-,
mem ;—that they should be hippy of haVing the
power to afford it their aid ;—that they knew their
elismissal was occasioned by conscientious motives
alone,;—and that sofar from she Wing any animosity
against their successors, they were disposed byevery
possible means to contribute to the success of those
Measures which they Might bring forward for the
service of the country ? Such ought to have been
their language, but that such had been their language
remained to be told. The general purport of the
present question was evidently similar to that which
had been proposed to the House, and which had
been rejected by the House. Those who were blind
to the tenor of the former question must see diStinate
ly the tenor of the present question. For hiinself,
he could say with the Hon. Mover, that he was un-
praL•tised in the ways of party ; and he could also
say, that were power placed in other hands than
those in which he wished- to see it placed, he should
refrain from repining. Under the impression of the
sentiments which he had thus submitted to the
House, he would move the Order of the Day.
Mr. 117.411 D heartily concurred in the Resolution
which had been propoSed. • No pains had' been
spared--.--no falsehood ebstained from, to persuade
the public that the late Mieisteks, in their wish
to -secure permanent power to themselves, had, not
hesitated to insult their Sovereign s and, there-
fore,
,that they and their friends by Whom they
bad been supported, in both Houses of Parliament,
were enemies to their Sovereign. , For his part, had
he seen any thing in the slightest degree irreverent
in their behaviour to his MaieSqe he should have
deserted theirs oe the instant ; for no one could be
more sensible then himself what was due to a So-
vereign so venerable for his age, for the long pe-•
riod during which he had reigned over his people,and for the paternal beeeficence of his sway.—
He said thus much to clear himself from the as-
persions of anonymous libellers, who, assuming,
however falsely, to 'speak the sentiments of the
present Administratibn, leaded the late 'Ministers
with abuse, notwithstanding the approbation which
his Majesty had been graciously pleesed, to ex-
press of their conduct 'on their quitting office ;
nothing could be more clear, concise, and satistitc-
tory, , titan the history of the transactions which bed
led to their dismissal, ae they had beeh detailed' by
a Noble Lord. In those transactions there appeared
to be no scheme to insult their Sovereign—no at-
tempt to render themselves Maires du Pakiis.—
Nor was there atiy: thing in their -conduct which
oo imperiously compelled the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite- to exchange law for finance, that he
might " stand, by the religion of the country,"
as' he expressed it in the advertisement to his
constituents ; an advertisement of which, if he
had not seen attached to it the signature of that
respectable cheraaer, he should • have said, not
that it was the production of a great lawyer—not
that it was the produNion of a, wise minister—not

that it was the prociation of au excellent man, but
that it was the priAluftion of some mischievous incen-

diary, anxious to,arul wan against man, and to throw

the whole Empire into confjisiOn from one extremity
to the other. Far was he front imputing any such
motives to the Right Honourable Gentleman; but
tech wee the natural efic.tts to be expeded from a,

•
paper, which, except A Monlie'llf ifpAitical
mosity, and too aspirinc, ambitiote, he was sure that
that .tight Honourabla l'';ei;tiernau would -not have.
prothulgated. The late Ministers had gives ep every
thiug ni his Majesty which they could concede
without disgrace : every thing but their principles;
their consistency, their horour, He must acknow-
ledge that, were he •to blame tllein for any thing, it
would- be-on. different groends -from that -4,4, lila had
hi'therto been taken. .That they had zottlarenough
in concession be Lad no douLt ; that eheY had
gone' too far, he had a doubt. Mature.l.- cote-
sikring the rights and privileges of the People,
as understoed in 'the best times of English History
,(he did not mean -the rights upheld by the rioters at
Brentford, the. demagogues a: Chalk Farm, the in-
erieuers in the CorrespOnding Society, or even the
mob hired to cry " Popery !");.it would perhaps
have been better bad they not waited until the last
disgrace was proposed for them behind the curtain,
until-those conditions of ignominy were proposed
for their acceptance. He would not-d well upon this
point: he,
would only 'say, that had they acted th119,-
he for one would have stood by them, and would
cheerfully have abided by the conequences. At a
time when, by the re-Re-lion ofa late- Revolutime in
a neighbouring Country, the progress of political
and 'religious toleration had been retarded by
associating them with the ideas of rapine and
massacre, had , his Majesty's late Ministers contri-
buted to this effea-, had they signed their own dis-'
grace, had they promised never to do any thing more
tbr that glorious cause which had- been becineathed to
them by their illustrious' colleague, then, indeed,
should he have deeply lamented such cOnduae bUt
as it was, he sincerely regretted the change in Admi-
nistration, because, at a most critical period, it de-
prived.theiCing and the COuntry of the services of a•
wise, active, and patriotic Government, and re-
placed that Government by one which, in althost.
every respea, was its dire& opposite. The reform'
made by-the: late Administration in the Public Ex-
penditure afforded a rare and brilliant example of a
Government anxious to save the Public Money at the
hazard of diminishing their own patronaee and emo-
luments. After a long and expensiv;War, they
freed the House from the necessity of imposing taxes
for many years (he. did not.mean to say that the pre-
sent MiniSters would abide by that plan), and by
tlfet Single at had done mere than had- been done
by any single aa of any firmer Government to keep
upitthe spirits of the people, and to incite thorn to
vigorous exertions in the avefUl struggle in which Eu-
rope was engaged.. How far this projeteed benefit,
by a wasteof millions to rouse unwilling Cabinets to
ection, it was impossible to divine. Probably Eng-
lish gold, that was English labour, English misery,
might be devoted to procere another third. day's vic-
tory at Austerlitz ; and he trusted that his namesake
(Mr. Robert Ward), who could
,so happily change
Weat into viaory, would be brought down by a
special retainer, from the Admiralty to the Foreign
Office, in order that he might • repeat his former
operations. Of this he was convinced, that their
purity
,and severity on the subjea of Finance
hastened the fall, and would prevent the return
to power,. of the late Administration. They were
too diligent in investigating abuses not to ren-
der themselves the aversion of the whole band
Of jobbers,-exposed to dete&ion by, their inexorable
scrutiny.' But now they would be delivered from
their terrors. The good old times had returned.
They anticipated a laxity, which would again allow
them to riot in 'the pillage of their country. The
new GovernMent were aware bow much influence
had been lost by their, predecessors on this subjeel,
and how nnxch Might be gained by themselves. What
must be the satisfaCtion of the whole class of Public-
depredators, to see recalled to his Majesty's Coun-
cils, that Nobleman, who, in his defence to the
House ofCommons, or rather in his confesslo4, for
so it better deserved to beeermed, had boldly avowed
that a large sum of the public money had been en-
trusted to his care, of which he 'would never render
any account. With what rapture must they hail this
triumph of their tutelary deity over the fe6liaD of
the country, and the authority of the Houe of
Cominons ? for assuredly that. Administration could
-not be considered as favourable to a good under-
standing between the Sovereign'and' the House
of Commons; which had recommended' to kt isMa-
jesty to restore the Nobleman whom lie had men-
tioned to-a seat at tire Council Board,, while the Re-
solution of the Bth of April' remained still on-the'
Journals. He would not say much of the successors
of the late Administration, becaUse it was a more
pleasing task to praise than .to blame. Whether he
considered the means by which they had acquired
power, or the means which they must be obliged to
use to retain it, he considered their cotning into
office as the most lamentable event of the kind that
had occurred sinee the breaking up of the
stretiori of the illnstrious Cleat-ham in 1763 ; a
.transaction 'resembling the present ititcoh it
tlierhaT point;,
besides the secret influence by which
produced.- 'Could the Country forget that these
were the 'same Men, who, panic-struck, abandoned
their offices on the death of their great leader, Mr.
Pitt (a name which he could never mention without
the highest respect and veneration), although the
myrmidons did not allow the spoils of their departed
chief to fall into the hands of the enemy, kit
.kept
their situations long enough to .enable them to
take full possession of the spolia °pima ? Had
not also the greatest part of them, with Mr. Pitt
at their head, formerly given up office, because the
Catholic Emancipation—the whole Catholic Email-
cipation—was refused ? While the last Administra-
tion proposed only a very small part of that measure,
and when the King expressed his reluctance to it,
consented that it should- be withdrawn ! Having
obtained power by undue infinence, Ministers must
keep it up by means which always supply the place
of public confidence ; among these means he was
sorry to hear that a profusion of honburs was to be
bestowed. What then had the present Administra-
tion done, and what were they about to do ? First,
they advised the Sovereign to violate the Constitu-

tioti' by demanding fromthe late Ministers a pledge
incompatible %vitt) their public duty ; they then ask-
ed his Majesty to grant them places tor lite, thus put-
ing it out of his power to pzinish them for any tiAture

nuiconduet ; and now, if report spoke true, I iwy
were about to advise that at one blow a mass of

honours should be c,oferred, enough to support the
due influence of the Crown for ten years, thus mort-
guging for that period the interests of the King.—
Another intended step bad been mentioned—that

)I:is M:tlesty possessed the right of dissolving Parlia-
-1)111. was undoubted ; but never sinte the,Acces-
sioncon4 the Royal Prerogative be exercised more
objedionably than at the present moment.---Tile
Right_ Hon. Gentleman 'Opposite, however, held
Out a threat upon this subjed—with what propriety
and dyeency he left it the House to determine.—
Tl,ie,greatest Minister that this country had ever seen,
whoseprdowidwisdom and commanding eloquence
Might havejultitied hiM in assuming a high tone—
evtn Mr.- Nt himself, in the meridian of his glory,
glor,v \Vhich. he feared the present First Lord of
the Treasury was not destined to rival) bad always
treated:the `.olouse with respell, nor ever, at the close
of a debate, when ii seemed probable that their de-
eision -would be againgt him, had lie threatened the
Members, that he would send them back to their con-
stituents. He hoped the House of Commons would
treat this threat as it deserved--with contempt and
indignation ; it was a threat' which a strong Govern-
' ment would despise to use, which a good Govern
meat wotild be ashamed
.to use.
Mr. HA WKIA.St BROWNE thought the sense of
the House had been sufficiently pronpunced on the
objed of the. Motion of this night by the last division.
He had apProVed Of some of the acts of the late Ad-
ministrati-on;- but he Was far from approving of all
their alts.`. He looked upon the present AdMini-
stration as fully equal to the last in abilities, in-
tegrity; and:Jove *ot their country. But even if he
bad looked upon the last Administration as un-
exceptionable, and the present as touch inferior.,
he would not support a Motion which tended to set
thq sense of the Ilon,se of Curt-Irma; in oppoimon to
the prerogative of the Crown, unless the e4tstence of
.the Country was absolutely in danger. Heapproved
of the present Ministers as the followers of
system, the system ,of Mr. Pitt, who had saved, the
Country. The Membets of the late Administration
had been,many of them supporters. of very. different
systems, and they .were therefore the less to be
relied on. He wished the present Ministers bad
pledged. themselves against the Catholic Ques-
tion, but they had not, though such pledges were
warranted by the pra&ice of the, Whig and Tory Ad-
ministrations of King William,: Queen Anne. and
George 111. who had all pledged themselves vir-
tually to measures consistent-with. their principles.
As to the capacity of the present Ministers, he
'thought the example of a Chancellor of the Exche_
quer, taken from the profession of the law, may, be
well warranted by the- example of Mr. Pitt, who
had not gone so far in the praaice of,the law as the'
present Chancellor of the Exchequer. He con-
cluded
with iMputing the blame of bringing 'his
Majesty to the Bar of the Hous.e of Commons to the
llite

Mr. MACDONAL.D. '(son of the Chief Baron)
Would not enter into an examination of the constitu-
tional arguments advanced on the other side, which
may be safely left to have' their own weight. Ho
thought it a grateful thing to have the opport•inity of
bearing testimony to the opinion-the country had of
the integrity and ability of the late Ministeri. At a
time when all Europe looked 'to this country for
such co-operation with the great Empire that de-
fended the rights of nations in the North, he thought
it impolitic and unfortudate to put oat an able . and
rtspeded Administration, to replace it with one of
a rutile and infirm cqnstituticin,

Mr. .TIGHE felt himself particularly called upon
to take a part in this debate, as the County he had
the honour to represent .was even in danger of having
its tranquillity atleded by the proceedings on some
of the points which were involved. The late Minis
ters bad conducted Ihemselves in a manner which-
had done honour to themselves and given satisfaction
to the country. In respea.to the public expenditure
they had manifested a spirit of economy, in finance
of tendefriess and judgment, in war of promptitude
and decision, and in other 'part's of administration
a principle of reform, whieh they had :established
by the Abolition of the Slave 'Trade. They had
done enough for themselves, but net fc.ir their coun-
try.--Sat sibi sed non putriee. He thought there'
particularly to be commended for the constitutional
principle on which they had retired from office,, re-
t fusing to give a pledge inconsistent with their duty.
He condemned the cry of the. Church being in danger,
and reprobated particularly. the Address to the inha-
bitants of Northampton, by the Right Honourable
and Learned Chancellor of the Exchequer. If that
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been' Re
presentative for Westminster,' instead of North-
ampton, and had circulated such hand-bills among
his constituents, all the horrors of 1780 might have
followed. That Right Honourable and Learned Gen-
tlernan, though holding hitilself forth as the cham-
pion-of the Church and State; had however stickled
for an _office for life before: he would conic tbrward to
defend them ; and would have had that office for life
had not. the Houses of Commons de barred him from
the in tkested appointtnent. He reprobated the pledge
refused by the late Ministers, and virtually acceded
to by the present, He insisted on the pledges held,
out by the Government Pamphlet, and by the speech
of IV/r. Pitt on the question of the Union. All the
prostitution of the public revenue, of seats in Parlias
fluent, of offices of the law, of the dignities of the
churehi and of the peerage itself, which had been la-
vished
on that occasion, would have failed, if the Ca.,
tholic-BishopS had not been induced to influence their'
'priests, and the priests to influence the people to agree
to the Union. The tranquillity of Ireland would be
materially atieeted by the removal of the
.Duke of
Bedford, who; treading in the steps of his amiable
predecessor, had done so much for the internal tran-
quillity- and prosperity of that country, He did not,
however, see any ground for apprehending any
alarming disturbance. When the mild
liatory administration of Lord Fitz William had been .
dissolved, a rebellion had been the consequence :
but whatever disappointment may prevail tiOW:,
no rebellion would follow, because the people of
Ireland had beqn accustomed to view with , cold
'determined. apathy all changes in Administration
here, as none of those changes were attended
with any benefit to them. If the Bill, which had
been brought in by the late Administration had
passed; a new interest would have been created.—
No recruit would be' had in the South, or in the,
\Vest; because there was no security for 'the free'
exerei,e of :Religion. A few years ago,- a Gen-,
tleman. had got some men in his neighbourhood,
upon his, own, pledge, and the pledge of a Rd-
Man Catholic. Magisitrate, that they should al- .
ways be -allowed the free exercise of 'their- religions
but when
.they arrived at their quarters in' the

Vale of Wight, they were CoMpilled to attend-the
Protestant -Worship, and forbid to attend ta, neigh-
bouring Chapelnf their own sea, under Vain of rrii.7
litary punishment. Consequently the recruiting
proceeded but slowly in Ireland, though the country
was poor, and ,the bounties otlred were high. it
was fromea system of this kind that Irishmen had
been driven to such military distiu&ion in the
service of Foreign Potters, often fighting agaitel
England, as at the battle of
,Fontenoy, where two
Irish regiments saved the French army from destruc-
tion, and the French King from captivity. It Brie.
lain opened her arms to the Catholics, how much
more satisfied would they be to fight for. her national
protetaion. But the pledge and promise of the e4-.1
tension .of the Irish. Aa to Britain had existed
thii-teen'years, without any step to realize it; anti
,when the step was at length taken, its progress was;
stopped by secret advice.. He asked how a .cliffereut
spirit of Legislation, and n different sense of Abr:
coronation Oath, could inertia in this Country stud
in Ireland ) He asked also how a- Constitution
so favoureble, to Catholics, as to allow them to
be Members, of the Legislation, could be allowed to
,be formed for Canada,. and why similar liberality
should not be exercised towards the Catholics of Ire-
land ?, Since the• Union Ireland had felt no comma-.
pity of rights, no communityof commerce; the only
community it telt, was that of having one hundred.
assessors in the British Parliament, who, were td:
give -effeatial.votes thr the interest of their country,
as
_he may do that night. The-Bill lately breught for—
ward could make no change lit the -COnStitution of
the Country, in Church or State. He should vote:
contrary to his conscience, and the interest of
country, if he -did not vote in favour of the :ate "Ad=
ministration, and against the present. He trusted:the.
Irish Catholics would meet the conscientious deteree
mination of the Sovereign against them with the ree.
spea due ,to the Father of his People; aud,that they
would console themselves under present disappoint-
ment with the coriviaion that those who retired,
from their offices because they. could not hold theta
without an unconstitutional pledgee would retuta
again' with the full and unprejudiced confidence. of
their Sovereign to do justice to their merits.
Jfr. ROBIXSON.said, the Nobleman who was ,
at the head of .the late Government was liable, "as
well as 111 r. Pitt,' to all the imputations cast by the
• Hon. Gentleinan who spoke. last upon the breach of
faith with respect to the Irish Catholics as conne6teel
with the Union, He could not approve of the whole
of the condua of the, late Ministers, nor could he
agree to antevpte 'tending to the removal of the pre
sent Ministers, without allowing them a fair trial.
He had ever disapproved of the military measures of
the late Administration, and the returns before the
House confirmed his opinion. He particularly con-
demned the measures pursued - with .respect to the
Volenteerse a ferce,which could never aga:n be or-
ganised, whatever Government may be in place, He
was satisfied of the good effeds of the mild system
introduced bY,,Lerd,Hardwickein Ireland. He
mented on general grounds that the change in Ad-
ministration had taken place: But when he came
to consider the circumstances of the delicate case
lately laid before Parliament, he could not refuse his
support to the present Ministers, so long as they deg
served it. He could not condemn by anticipation;
particularly under the circumstances in which the
present Ministers were called to the helm.
Mr. GORE lamt*ted , the efret9.s of tire mild sys-
tem of the Duke of Bedford. This system !ladled
ter the murder of fire Men in one county,- in which
25. men were now in rison for disatfeCtion. If these
were the effects of the mild system of the Duke of
Bedford,. he thought it :high time to introduce
ther system. The sense the Irish Nation entertained
of a proper system of Government, was manifest
from the gratitude they felt for a Noble Lord (Corn-
wallis) on whose Staff he was proud to have served.
He would have supported the Catholic Officers' Bill
if it had been brought forward as likely to, be highly
beneficial. But the late Ministers adopted that Bill-
only as a compromise to get rid of the larger Catho-
lic Question—a compromise- that was despised by
the CatholicK He charged. the late Ministers with.
omitting to serve the Catholics on the most essential
points—ot the point of national education, without
which it was nugatory to think
.of ant,
extension of
rights to the lower classes. What had the late Mi-
nisters done towards this necessary diffusion of knOW-
e d ?
e,...4e sad
e. vly e fromer:etrbecl clone any
n
eiiiiga.
snrod oitri.c collecting
g _
l
q r
yiha.pr thingtoy
the
'S mischiefs
fds arising
? ro
be remedied in Ireland.
`t hne t
. J— A Country was hardly used, •
At random censur'd, .and at best abdsed.
A country worthy of better treatment, and whose
hardy sons, if properly encouraged, were the best
bulwarks of Great Britain.
Mr.ROScOE'thought. the strength of the Empire
would be best'consulted at this- dangerous crisis, by
attaching three or four millions of people, trot only
to the Contitution, but to the Church Establishment.
The Officers' Bill would, if carried into etle6l, have
prevented the agitation of the general'Catholic Uues-
tion. Times and circumstances were entirely changed
since the priVations imposed on the Catholics were
matter of just or necessary policy. There was now,
,no danger of 'a Popish Succession ; there was no ge-
neral Protestant cause in Europe. Catholics tk,ere
our allies, and. Protestants were our enemies. Wit
respect to the present Ministers, some of them were •
unknown, and some had been, tried in the balance,
and found wanting. Some of them hart rendered
themselves obnoxious to a great part of the country..
The late Chancellor of the Exchequer had rendered
himself estimable by essential services in his office.:
The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was va-
luable only as he had given proofs in law of talents.
that might ,possibly be afterwedse useful. in Fi-
nance. -The late Chancellor of the ExChequer had
retired from office, alter real services, withoet any
provision ; the present Chancellor of the Excheqeer
had demanded the office,of Chancellor of the ;May -
of Lancaster for lite as a reward for coming hilt)
office in ,defence of the Church 'and of the Preroga-
tive, of the Crown, to whose vilaication-he: Sc) pool-
pously stated himself to have been called. 1-L cerr•
bared the requisition of the pledge, and. the
skin of it by the present Ministers. He blareAt the
present Mintsters for costing thertsponsibl-ny (,L1
Majesty alone. The con.iti'tntion, in -estaulishitig
that the King did no wrong, established also that
did-nothing without responsible advisers. It was. C 9;
sential to Parliament to take care that. them *liert, •
be Ministers free trout such unconstitetienai
and. to prevent the Administration trot%