The Sun.
London, England, 1831-12-15 00:00:00

IRISH TYTHE SYSTEM.

On the order of the day for their Lordships being sum-
moned, being read,
Lord MELBOURNE moved the reading of that part
of his Majesty's speech which referred to the tythe
system in Ireland, after which the Noble Lord addressed
their Lordships. In consequence of that part of hie
M.jesty's speech, and of the address unanimously
voted by your Lordships to his Majesty, he now
rose to move for the appointment of a Select C im-
mittee to inquire into the collection and payment of
tithes in Ireland. He trusted he should be able to
persuade their Lordships to agree to the motion which he
felt it his duty to submit to the House. He felt as
much as any man the great difficulties and importance of
the question, and how much it was connected with feel-
ings on which there prevailed great differences. He should
therefore approach the discussion with the utmost cention.
It would he presumptuous in him to request their Lord-
ships to follow his sentiments on this occasion ; but he
trusted that, on this important subject, unanimity would
prevail in that House. It was almost unnecessary for
him to state that for a very many years past, the col!ec-
tion and :payment of tithes in Ireland had been the
cause of great animosity. Many of the disturbances which
from time to time had agitated Ireland, had been in most
instances connected with the payment of tithes. When
the condition of Ireland pressed itself, as in 1822, on the
attention of Parliament and the country, a Bill was then
passed called the Tythe Composition Act, which gave very
general satisfaction in Ireland, which he could bear tcsti.
ninny to their doing at the time he was in Ireland,
unfortunately, as their Lordships well knew from
the debates in that House, and more particularly
from a Petition presented by the Bishop of Ferns. In
the language of the Speech there had been a syste-
matic opposition to tithes in many parts of Ireland, more
particularly in the Queen's County, Carlow, and Meath,
where a determination had been manifested not to suffer
goods to be disttained for tithes, or where they had been
distrained, not to be sold. That had reduced the country
in that part of the empire to the greatest distress,
and it had become necessary for the Ministers to
call ou their Lordships to institute an inquiry into the
cause which had produced such distress in Ireland—.
(Hear, hear.) If it were owing to a settled determi-
nation not to pay tithes, or if it arose from
a lawless spirit, the law would he strong enough to check
such conduct. But he had no doubt it had arisen from
the imperfect operation of the Composition Act, which had
rendered tithes difficult in that country and odious also. Ite
operation was imperfect and partial. Some of these im-
perfections had been ably pointed out by a Noble Lord.
on the day on which he (Lord Melbourne) had given
notice of his motion. In consequence of the vi-
ciousness of parts of the system, the greatest odium at-
taches to the collection of tithes, and to prove that
he would read to their Lordships a letter re-
ceived from an individual well versed in the subject.
The Noble Lord then read a letter which he had from a
clergyman in Ireland, which stated the same crimes
as he had stated. It further stated that in the dis-
turbed counties of Clare and Galway, where compo •
sition was general, the condition of both the incumbent and
the tithe was much better than in the county of Carlow,
Queen's County, Meath, and others, where composition
had been very a10%%1y adopted, and yet was not general.
One complaint against the tithe system was its irregularity.
The latter instanced the case of a poor man whose land
was rated for tithes at Is. 81., and for this trifling sum
his cow or his horse was liable to be driven to the pound
six times a year, and for each driving a sum of 2s. 6d.
was exacted for drivers' fees, and all this fur the trifling
sum of one shilling and eightpence. This %vas a state of
things which lie was sure their Lordships would say could
not exist, and lie hoped that the labours of the Committee
to which he proposed to refer it, would ameliorate the con-
dition of both parties, something was essentially necessary
to be done ; lie considered he had said enough to induce
their Lordships to agree to the terms of his motion.
Govirnment had thought it better, as the case was one
of such intricacy to refer the case entirely to a Committee
than to bring forward a remedy of their own. No doubt,
Government had an opinion upon the subject, and were
in possession of many facts relating to the subject that
they had considered, and he hoped their Lordships also
would do so, that a Committee could better attend to all
the minute details of the subject. It was highly necessary
that this should now be done.—(Hear, hear.) It would
place the property of both the payer and the receiver of
tithes upon a more advantageous footing than it had here-
tofore been. He hoped that such a measure might be
advised as would secure to the clergyman his just reward,
and at the same time give to the occupier of the land such
relief as, in the opinion of the Committee, was necessary.
It had been said that this question was injurious to the
incumbent. It had also been said that the present laws
were sufficient, in order to put in force, but he contended
they were securing the right and property of both parties,
the Committee would come to such conclusions as would
allay the discontent and digress which at the present time

existed in Ireland. Government only were anxious that
the Committee should report to the House entirely upon
the principles of equal and impartial justice. The Noble
Lord. concluded by moving for the appointment of a select
Committee upon the Irish Tithe Laws.
Lord WICKLOW hoped he would not he found to
deviate, in the few observations he had to make, from the
line chalked out by the Noble Viscount. After the Speech
delivered from the Throne, and after the discussions which
had taken place in that House respecting the state of Ireland,
he had at least expected that the House would now have
had some insight afforded into the objects and intentions of
Government. It was with sincere satisfaction the Noble
Lord bad heard the reference made to the state of Ireland
which the Royal speech made to it,he confessed that previous
to that he had apprehended his Majesty's Ministers were
not sufficiently alive to the evils which existed in that
country, and he (Earl W.) had conic over to
England with a full do termination himself to bring
the subject before the House provided he had found
it had not been taken up by some person of greater weight
than himself. The Noble Viscount, in his speech, to-
night, had not exaggerated the evils existing in his un-
happy country, nor indeed had he gone the length to which
he might have proceeded in his details of the la-
mentable condition of Irel Ind. There were at this
moment in several parishes in that country, clergy-
men whose families had been brought up in affluence,
end who were obliged now to live like the peasants
of Ireland, on nothing but potatoes and milk. This,
however, was an evil which did not ptevail through-
out Ireland, it was confined prineip dly to one
extensive district—the diocese of Dr. Doy'e. And the
evil did not arise from any inherent objection on the part
of the people in that county to the payment of tithes,
as such more, than to any other itnpost hint at, had
arisen from the writingt and doctrines of those persons dis-
affected with the Government. The Noble Earl now read a
statement frotu a writing of the Rev. Dr. Doyle, which
he considered as a fire-brand which had been thrown
into the Reverend Dr. Doyle's diocese for some pur-
pose, which it was impossible for him (Earl NV.)
to define. In addition to this, the House had to c wider ti:e
speeches that nail been made throughout Ireland by the de-
mocrats and agieators of hat country. It was impossible that
a country should exist in any thing like peace where
those doctrines were permitted to be promulgated.
And the Noble Earl trusted, therefore, that it was not
the less the intention of his Majesty's Government
to alter the law of the tithe system, than it was their
intention to trice some step for the purpose of
putting down the Unions which were forming,
and had formed, throughout the country ; because
When good men saw bodies of had men forming them-
selves into societies for particular purposes, the good men
also then felt themselves bound to take some steps which
otherwise '.perhaps they would never have thought of
taking ; and he confessed that if Political Societies
should be permitted to continue as they were, he for one
faith that he shou'd be obliged to do that which his better
feeling had heretofore prevented him from adopting
(LEFT SITTING.)