The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-14 00:00:00

DUBLIN CITY.

The Committee met at a quarter before four. Lord
Seymour in the chair.
Mr. Thessiger, Mr. Keatringe (of the Irish Bar), and
Mr. Wrangham, appeared for the petitioners ; and Mr. Austin,
Mr. Roebuck, and Mr. Hutton (of the Irish bar) for the sit-
ting Members.
Nothing more was done than the excliangin,g of hits, and
the Committee adjourned to two o'clock to-morrow.

IMPEREA,I, PARLIAAIENT,

(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

The House of Lords stands adjotTrnedtilito-inorr&w.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tie SPEAKER took the chair at the usual hour.
CARLOW BOROUGH ELECTION.
Colonel WOOD, as chairman of the Carlow Borough Elec-

tion Committee, reported to the Housr! that W. 11. Maule,
Esq., was duly ele7ted, sod that neiti.er the petition of Frances
Buren and others, nor the oppositio.i thereto, were frivolous
or vexatious.

Mr. CLAY moved the second reading of the Montgomery-
shire ( Western Branch) Canal Bill.
An HON. MEMBER en the Opposition benches mad an ob-
servation against the Bill.

Mr. CLAY said he had no personal interest in the Bill.
The object of the Bill was to enable the Proprietors of the
Canal to raise their tolls, as those at present existing were
found to be totally inadequate to the carrying on of the
Works ; the inhabitants of the town where the canal termi-
nated were in favour of the Bill. In September last a meeting
of the inhabitants of Newton was held, at which resolutions
were passed, declaring their approbation of the Bill.
These resolutions were passed by those parties who
would have to pay the increased rates; yet they feat
that it would only be justice to those who laid out
the:r money upon the speculation for the benefit of the town,
,hould have some remuneration. In the article ~f coals a one,
the canal had reduced the price 9s. a ton, which had p wed
a saving of 4,0001. a year to the town. Of those who were
to be affected by the Bill, out of a population of 6,000, 900
had petitioned in favour of the Bill. He would conside it
indeed singular if the Bill were to be thrown out upon a
second reading, and not be sent to a Committee, where its
merits might be inquired into.
Mr. W YNNE said the canal was not made for Newport
alone, but for the surrounding country, and many pro-,
pri,tors whom he knew had taken shares with no otln r
I ope of remuneration than the benefit of their tenants.
It appeared to him that if the House sanctioned that Bill it
would be making a precedent of which it seemed to be aware.
He knew not on what grounds they could refuse to allow any
other speculation which might turn out be unsuccessful an in-
crease of toll. If speculators came to the House and said,
" we do not receive a remunerative return for our capital--
give us an increase of toll," the House could not after this Bill
refuse. —( Hear.) If the speculation had turned out to
be one of very great profit, like the new river,
would the proprietors consent to lower the toll? Cer-
tainly not. indeed, it would be unjust to call on
them to do so, but it would be equally unjust and
unfair to allow them to increase the toll. He never
yet had heard of its being urged as a good ground
for bringing in a Bill of this sort, that because there had been
no remunerative return for the capital expended on the work,
the toll should be augmented. Under these circumstances, he
should feel it his duty to move that the Bill be read a secon d
time that day six months.
Mr. SLANE Y was nearly inaudable in the gallery. We
understood him to say that he would support the amendment
of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn.)
Mr. MAY would support the Bill.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the Bill
Against it 77
Majority against the Bill —74.
The Bill was therefore lost.

OXFORD GREAT WESTERN UNION RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. TANCRED, the Oxford and Great
Western Union Railway Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed.

On the motion of Mr. STEWART, the Comberton Roads
Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
Lord STANLEY brought in the Bolton and Preston Rail-
way Bill.
On the motion of Mr. RICH the Walsall Market Bill was
read a second time and committed.

Mr. BROCKHURST presented six petitions from Mac-
clesfield, praying for the abolition of the negroe system of ap-
prenticeship, which prayor he most cordially supported.
Colonel G. L A YTON presented a similar petition.
General O'NEIL presented two petitions from parishes in
Antrim against the Irish Poor Law Bill.
Mr. JAS. STE WART presented a petition from a place
in Devonshire, against the continuance of Negro Apprentice-
ship.
Mr. MAXWELL presented a petition from the Grand Jury
of the County of Cagan, against the clause in the Irish Poor
Law Bill, giving relief to the able bodied poor.
Sir C. BLUNT presented a petition in favour of the Vote
by Ballot.

Lord COLE presented a petition from Annan, praying for
a continuance of the Irish Linen Act.
Lord CASTLEREAGH presented a petition from the
Grzind Jury of county Down, against the Irish Poor Law Bill.
The Noble Lord also presented “ similar petition from a parish
in the county of Down.
Mr. DENNISTOUN rrescnted several petitions from
Glasgow and ether places against any further caeowments to
the scotch Church.

Mr. ETWALL presented a petition from Andover against
the Boundary Bill.
The SPEAKER enquired whether any other Members
had petitions to present against the Boundary Bill?
Several Members here rose for that purpose.
Petitions upon the same subject were presented by Mr.
lIERRIES, Sir E. KNATCLIBULL, Mr. PLUMPTHE, and many
otl,er Members who were not known.

Mr. PCSEY and Mr. COLLINS presented petitions in favour
of the Bill.

On the motion of Mr. WYNN, these petitions were re-
ferred to the Committee on Petitions.
NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP.
Sir C. B. VERE rreseitted petitions from thirteen places
in Suffolk, for the immediate abolition of negro apprenticeship.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Mr.
Alexander Montgomery, agent to Lord Belfast and Mr.
Gibson, during the late inquiry before the Committee
appointed to try the merits of the petition, against
the return for the town of Belfast, complaining of the
award made by the Clerk of the House, with respect to ,the
costs attending the inquiry into Mr. Tennent and Mr. Dun-
bar's qualification as exorbitant and oppressive, and praying
that the House would reconsider the same.
Mr. SHAW rose to order. The House was not cotnpetent
to entertain the question.
The SPEAKER was understood to be of opinion that the
House would not entertain the petition.
Mr. HUME was of the same opinion. But he thought the
petition might be brought up.
(LEFT SPEAKING.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 13.

EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW RAIL,WAY.--
On the motion of Lord WILLIAM BENTINCKA his
Bill was read a second time.
ELECTION COMMITTEES.
Mr. HUME said he wished to call the attention of
the House to what he considered a great evil. It was a
matter connected with the proceedings of Election Com-
mittees of that House. He wished that the duties of
Clerks upon such Committees should be the same as upon
other Committees in respect to divisions. As ho did
not anticipate any opposition to his motion, he would move at
once that the Clerks take the names of all Members voting in
such Committees, stating the Ayes and the Noes.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member had made his
motion out of his proper turn.
Mr. HUME considered the question as a matter of privi-
lege, and the sooner it was settled the better.
Thu SPEAKER—The real question in the case is, whether
the House has the power to agree to the motion.
TITHE COMMUTATION.
Lord DUNGANNON wished to renew his question with
respect to the voluntary Commutation of Tithes. He wished
to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to afford
any, and what facilities for the voluntary Commutation of
Tithes?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was not intended to alter
the period fixed by the Act.
Lord DUNGANNON wished also to ask whether it was
intended to appoint an additional number of Assistant Com-
miss;oners.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that the Assistant Corn-
tuissioners already appointed, would in certain cases, where a
legal opinion was required call in the aid of a Commissioner
who could give such opinion.
AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said it was with very great
reluctance he rose to call attention of the House to the sub-
ject of which he had given notice, because it was in some
degree rather of a personal nature. He confessed he had
hoped he should not have been obliged himself to have
brought this subject before the House, because du-
ring his absence it appeared to have been a subject of fre-
quent discussion by lion. Gentlemen on the opposite side of
the House, and, therefore, he had thought that on his return,
it was most likely he would have an opportunity of addressing
himself to this subject, in reply to some statements that might
be brought forward by the opposite side of the House in his
presence, as statements and observations on this subject had not
been begrudged during his absence.—( Hear, bear.) Perhaps
that silence, however, might be attributed to the triumphant
result of the debate and division that took place in the month
of April last year. Before he attempted to enter into the
subject he begged to say, that deeply interested as he
was in it, yet, being conscious of is imperfections as a
speaker, he intended to be as brief as possible.--( Hear,
hear.) It was his wish to invite discussion, and a repeti-
tion of the charges that had been made in his absence,
in order that he might refute them. Whatever difficulties he
might have had to encounter, these difficulties were augmented
by the course which had been adopted by the opposite side of the
[louse. There was another party in that House against whom he
had some grounds of complaint, and they were those with whom
he concurred in thinking that the Ministry did not go far
enough in their measures, and with whom he had always acted.
The llonourable Baronet the Member for Leeds, who
he was sorry to find was not in his place, had, en-
deavoured to throw some degree of discredit and
disparagement on the force under his command. The Hon.
Baronet had induced him to think, before embarking in this
struggle, that he would give him the benefit of his powerful
assistance and influence, but he regretted to find by
an article in the " London and Westminster Review," that
so far from that he had endeavoured to lower and
degrade the character of the expedition. He could
not therefore avoid complaining that he had been most IT-
fairly dealt with, not only by Hon. Gentlemen at the opposite
side, who were influenced by party- motives, but by those who,
havirt no such considerations to influence them, ought
o have been disposed to render him, if not support, at
least justice. The object which he had in view by the
present motion was to show that the statements
which had been made with respect to the force under
his command were either totally unfounded, grossly
exaggerated, or were the common casualties and occurrences
to which every army was liable. He would, he hoped, be able
to establish to the satisfaction of the House that these troops,
fur from being liable to censure, bad faithfully and zea-

o ugly discharged their dots, and that too under the most ad-
verse circumstances. The Hon. Member then went on to detail
the circumstances under which he first accepted the command.
A short debate took place on that occasion, and he would
briefly allude to one or two statements which were made on
that occasion. One was that the rank and experience of the
individual chosen was not sufficient. His answer was that he
was not so much in love with this enterprise, but that he was
ready to surrender the command to any other officer of greater
experience and better abilities—( Hear, hear)—for although
he was not able to anticipate all the difficulties he should have
to contend with, he knew they would be very great, and he
therefore should not have had an insuperable objection to surren-
tiering the situation. The next imputation to which he wished
to refer was that thrown out by the Noble Lord, the Member for
ertford (Lord Mahon). That Noble Lord said that such a
ourse appeared to him to be a renewal of a system of Inas-
acre, from soldiers enlisting for mercenary motives, and that
it was an unchristian practice. He bad no objection to the
use of these terms, and stated his opinion at the moment. He
was not accused of these motives himself, but the imputation was
thrown out against the officers, and he could not refrain from no-
ticing the imputation cast upon them. He believed that in the
case of soldiers employed in the service of free states, and when
fighting even in a revolutionary cause, although the entire
mind of the people were with that cause, still it was indis-
pensable for the good discipline of the military force that they
should receive pay. However, if the practice was improper
or unchristian, he was quite content, seeing that he was in the
same situation as many of the most distinguished men in dif-
ferent periods of our history, amongst whom he would men-
tion the Duke of Marlborough, Lord Beresford, and even the
Right Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.—( Hear, hear.)
All these individuals had received commissions from foreign
powers and fought under foreign standards; and if he ( Sir
G. Evans) was a mercenary, so were they.—( Hear,
' hear, hear.) But he did not believe that anything
serious was meant to be imputed to them on that ground.
He knew of no difference upon a question like the present be-
. tween :the auxiliary forces under him and the officer of the
Portuguese army. There was one difference, it was true,
they had received all their pay, while the Legion had not—
(Loud cheers)—and that pay was at the same time much
better, and more even than the British army received. On
the subject of pay, there was an accumulation of advantages to
which, no doubt, the Portuguese officers were enticed, but
which subjected them to the charge.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed there was no instance in existence in which a
body of troops sent from this country had been fol-
lowed up with aspersions and asperity as the British Legion had.
No sooner was the force in the country—it had not been above
a month or six weeks—for the purpose of continuing these
disparagements, the parties of whom he complained began to
draw comparisons between his raw recruits and that great
army, and that Noble Commander, who had achieved such
glorious victories on the same soil.—( Hear, hear, hear. )
That was a most monstrous injustice, even had they been all
well trained. On the contrary, he was ready to admit
that they were nearly all, both officers and non-commis-
sioned officers, utterly inexperienced, and the parties had
no right to assail them in such an injurious manner.
Considering the materials of which the force was com-
posed, and the short time it had been under training, there was
great room fur both faith and hope as to its acts. ( Loud
cheers.) He thought it necessary to protest against the com-
parisons which had been drawn as the very acme of iejustice.
Having been about six weeks in the country they were ordered
into action to assist at the siege of Bilboa. In a slieht
ection which happened there in which the Legion 100
five men, with about twenty wounded, continuing the same
ccurse of misrepresentation, it was immediately magnified
into a great victory obtained by the Carlists. He bad further
to observe, that notwithstanding these discouraging circum-
stances, and though those circumstances were very much
augmented by one or two circumstances which he had
notic,d, he had certainly still thought that an enter-
. prise of that description, apart from political feelings.
would be looked upon with indulgence.—(Laud cheering )
The Duke of Wellington always acted with a great deal of
"orbearance and generosity when he alluded to anything relat-
ing to military matters, and he ( Sir G. Evans) was bound to
etfer his hunitle acknowledgements to his Grace fer the fo:-
hearance he had shown on this subject ; but, at the same tim s,
lie could not avoid remarking that a notice had been given in
the House of Lords, by the Duke of Wellington, on
this matter. He was aware, probably from the considera-
tion that it might occasion ernb;arra.sainent to the
Gevernment, and perhaps . itcreeae the difficulties
to the force about to be raised, that that motion was never
carried into effect. Previous to that notice a great number of
officers had stated that it was thcirietention to jolt, in the force,
bet an unfavoursble ithpression was created throughout the me •
tropolis and the country from the teriour of that notice of the
-Duke or Wellington, end some of. them refused to join him
'here were sense circumstances he believed with regard to ',eve
of absence from the army, which also created an unfavourable
iraprrosion. He begged most expressly and distinctly to ,state that so far as his intercourse with the head of the army
( Lord Hill) went he had experienced nothing but the
greatest politeness and considiretion. However the cir-
eumstances which he had mentioned materially aug-
teented the difficulties, and operated as moral obstacles
to the efficiency of that force, much more then the physical
difficulties that had been adverted to. 'the duration of the
terviee of that lorce was not for two years. but in reality
at the most only for eighteen months. They remained
far a period of four months at Vittoria, and no very im-
portant operations toe k place at that time. His own name
was adverted to in the public prints, and his conduct was
aiiimadverted on as if he were a Commander-in-Chief, while
at the same time he was acting under the directions of a su-
perior officer. Fin had performed his duties with satisfaction
to the Government, and also to the General-in-Chief, under
whose orders he had acted.--( Hear.) The Noble Lord, in
alluding to that engagement, had stated that it was a second
battle of Vittoria. He had complained of that expression, be-
cause an engagement of 4,000 or 5,000 mien could not be com-
pared to one in which 100.000 men were engaged—in which one
of the most brilliant victories he ever heard of had been achieved.
The affair at Vittoria was little more than a rnovelnent along the
chain of the Rihiera mountains, and after an action which
lasted some forty-eight hours the troops on both sides retired,
the General-in-Chief of the Christino army failing back on
Vittoria. In that action, which the Noble Lord represented
as one of the most formidable description, be said the British
Legion lost the whole of their artillery and baggage. No
such thing. He could only tell the Noble Lord that he was
misinformed, and that, in point of fact, the Legion lost nei-
ther artillery nor baggage.-. ( Hear, hear.) Imputations
bad been cast on General' Cordova for alleged misconduct on
this occasion ; but so far from there being any grounds for
supposing that he acted with treachery towards the British
auxiliary troops, he ( Sir G. Evans) must, in candour to that
Gallant Officer, say that there was no foundetion whatever
for the accusations made against him in the public prints and
other quarters.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") On the con-
trary, as soon as he determined to retire he sent an
Aide-de-Camp to him ( Sir G. Evans) ; but owing to
a portion of the enemy occupying the wood through
which he had to pass he was obliged to make a detour, and,
therefore, could not reach his position until the next day. He
was happy to say that General Cordova was wholly blame-
less, and that no imputation could rest upon him for his con-
duct in that instance.—(Hear, hear.) He would now ad-
-vert to the statement made with regard to the sickness at
,
Vittoria. That the sickness was great he did not deny,
but he did not think it was such as to justify the obloquy
cast upon those in chargo of the Legion. He believed that
the object of the parties who had made those complaints was
not so much to impute improper conduct to the officers at:
the Legion as to throw discredit on the Spanish Government.
He might be wrong, but that was his opinion.—( Hear,
hear.) Now the number of the British Auxiliary Legion
who had perished had been differently stated. By some it
was said to consist of 15,000 men, and by others 12,000,
but it had seldom been estimated under 10,000. It had been
stated that 12,000 of the Legion had perished either in action
or from sickness and disease, and that their bones law bleach-
ing on the hills. The number had never been stated at less
than 4,000 or 5,000. He knew that statements of this kind!
were always loosely made. The whole force of the Login e
amounted to about 8,000 men, but having been reinforced b?
-the recruits subsequently sent out at different periods he might
state it at 9,600. The system of recruiting adopted by th
agents of the Spanish Government was bad, and hence it was
that they had so many men who were so tainted with disease
or disability, as to be nearly wholly useless. This fact was
important, as it had a strong bearing on the sickness which
. afterwards took place. At least two-thirds of those men died
`,in hospital without having done even a single day's duty, and
that fact showed how the numerical strength of the Legion
whas swelled by parties being included in the returns Who
never ought to have been taken into account. The effective
force :if the Legion did not exceed 4,700. The whole num-
ber of whe men who perished in Vittoria, and its environs, in
six month); was 1,223, and the total loss in the two years, in-
cluding the killed and those who died of their wounds or from
disease, amounted to about 2,078. This was out of the
force of 9,600. The number who passed through the hose
pitalt during that period was 1,430, and yet this was what
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had spoken of as a
proof of unexampled sickness and mortality. The Hon. and
Gallant Officer referred to a report made by Sir J.
M'Uregor, in 1815, to show that a more extensive loss had
.occurred in the British army owing to sickness and disease.
With regard to the fate of the Legion, ae had been
tasked what had become of them, and it had been stated that
they had all perished, but was this the case? So far from
tliere being any truth in this statement, he must beg leave to
si, ty that so soon as they received their pay from the Spanish
G, wernment they would return to this country, and there were
abo, .xt 6,000 of them who were entitled to gratuities for re-
ward's or other services.—( Hear.) They had many- difficul.
ties to
seostend against. Some things were fair and others 1
were not in times of war, but he believed that the Carlist
agents het ;this country had induced men to go out in the Legion
purpose of deserting from it on their arrival in
Spain, and
merely for .the
inducing others to follow their example.---( A
lle
laugh.) He had been informed, and strongly believed, that
the fact was .et,.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh.") At all
events, 350 of the men who had gone out in the Legion went
over to the enemy; but it was well known that during the for..
men war a great number of desertions occurred. It been
mode a ground of complaint that there was a want of certainty
es:itit regard to the conditions in reference to the period of ser-
vice, and as tether it was for one or for two years. He re-
greemd this i. -nperfection as much as any one, but he had no-
thin( ; whateve.e to do with these conditions, as they bad been
Or accepted the command. The number off
:..(1 to be discharged was at first considers:
subsequently, by means of permasion, reis
as not until he received orders to raise the
n, which was blockaded by the Carlist
self placed in a responsible position. He
to wrest from the Carlists the advantages

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which they had gained, and to co-operate with the British •
squadron, which for the first time took part in the contest.
The duties assigned to him he performed to the best of his
ability. The Right Honourable and Gallant Officer had dwelt
on the unchristian practice of fighting on a Sunday, but had
he forgotten that the battles of Vimiera, of Toulouse, of Wa-
terloo, and of other places, occurred on Sundays ?—( Hear,
hear.) Now, with respect to the starvation so frequently
alluded to. That was another charge which had been
greatly exaggerated ; and, after all, what did it amount to ?
Why, to that which was inevitable in the case of all
armies engaged in actual warfare. One Noble Lord had
stated that, on a particular occasion, the whole Legion went
into action in a state of intoxication, and afterwards murdered
their prisoners. He ( Sir G. Evans) could only say that there
was no foundation for such a statement, and that it was wholly
destitute of truth, for, so far from being in the state de-
scribed, the men returned from the action without fright, con-
fusion, or disorder, and no prisoners were murdered.—
( Hear, hear.) It was clear, then, that the Noble Lord wAs
misinformed, and he therefore hoped that he would acknow-

ledge his error.
Lord NIA HON had made no statement of the kind.
Sir G. DE LACY EVANS had understood that the Noble
Lord had made some such statement, but whether that were
so or not, he ( Sir G. Evans) had no wish to produce exaspe-
ration. As to what had been said about his want of skill, he
cared nothing about that, because, while his conduct was dis-
approved of by his opponents, it was the subject of praise on
the part of his friends and the Government under whom he
served. He must now express his feelings of gratitude to the
gentlemen who defended the Legion, when the subject was
brought under discussion last year; and of the Right Hon.
Baronet opposite ( Sir R. Peel), he was bound to say that
throughout the debate he never uttered a word that could be
hurtful to his feelings. The object of his present appeal was to
show that injustice had been done to the troops under his com-
mand; and as to the excesses which it was said they committed,
he could only say that they had been guilty of no description of
crime which was not common in all armies. It had been
complained that the Governmeut ought not to allow the Bri-
tish troops to be accustomed to scenes of demoralisation and
blood such as existed in Spain ; but the Right Hon. and Gal-
lant Officer seemed altogether to forget the state of the Bri-
tish army in 1810. The Hon. and Gallant Member read a
passage from a paper in his hand, in which it was said that
the conduct of the British soldiers was at that period noto-
riously infamous, and that they had been guilty of murder,
robbery, and perjury without the greatest chief that ever lived
being able to repress those crimes.—( Hear.) It was quite
true that he bad allowed the system of Provost; but he did so
to render it unnecessary to inflict capital punishments, and he
was satisfied that abstaining from capital punishments tended
to diminish and not to increase crime.—( Hear.) Now, with
respect to the complaint that had been made of the men not
having received their pay, all he could say was that, with the
exception of about one hundred and twenty, the whole of the
officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates received
the whole pay due to them down to the period he left.
All those who had lost their limbs had received pensions, and
though many had not received gratuities he did not think that
was a sufficient ground for the complaints that had been made.
Ile had the fullest confidence in the statement made in the
other House of Parliament by the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government, that no efforts would be wanting on the part
' of her Majesty's Government to procure from the Spanish Go-
vernment the fulfilment of its engagements towards those men.
He would now advert to a part of the subject on which, con-
sidering his pecular situation, lie was disposed to touch with
the utmost delicacy, and that was with respect to the services
rendered by the Legion. Part of the Legion had not arrived
at St. Sebastian until the morning of the sth of May,
and on that morning operations commenced which were so
far successful that the chief of the Carlist forces was killed,
and those forces themselves were driven front the lines which
they occupied. The next operation was On the 28th of Mae,
when the Legion took possession of the town and port of Pas-
, 'gee, which were of very great importance. The Honourable
:a.lember proceeded to recount the various operations of the
Legion whilst el:gaged under his command, and entered into
a deLail of the operations of the IGth of March. This was in-
tended to have been a combined movement, but circumstances
hsvicg arisen to delay the movement on the part of the columns
under Espartos) and Saarsfield the operation on the part of
the Legion (as we understood) was undertaken with a view of
affording a columa under Searsfield moving through the ene-
my's country some chance of escaping from the combined at-
tack of the enemy's foxes. The Hon. Member for Hertford
( Lord Mehon) had stated that he considered the conduct of the
Legiun in retreating before the enemy (as we understood)
the greatest stain upon the British arms which bad been cast
upon them for five or six hundred years. Now, he consi-
dered it hardly fair for the Noble Lord to have expressedthis
opinion, that a retreat into their lines not exceeding a mile
and a half was a stein upon the British arms, as if no troops had
ever before retreated. During the Peninsular war there hat!
been some retreats, and though that war was marked through-
out by the most glorious successes, it would surely not be
fair to forget all the great victories achieved during the war,
and to remember only its reverses. The Noble Lord (Lord
Mahon) had written a history of a former war of succession
in Spain, and in recounting the circumstance of a General
with upwards of five thousand men having been forced to
surrender to the enemy, the Noble Lord said that this was
a General of acknowledged talent and greatreputation, who,
by one of the accidents of war, had thus been reduced to the
termination of his career, and this capitulation the Noble Lord
said had arisen from no fault of this General. Now he thought
the Noble. Lord ought to have extended this candour to the
Legion, who had acted as bravely and as well as any troops
whatever could have Acted. He (Sir G. Evans) was one of
those who looked with the greatest respect to the military
services of Viscount Beresford, and thought that he had
rendered high and important military services to his coun-
try.—( Hear, hear, hear.) But in the early part of lis
career that distinguished officer had met with reverses; but
would it he fair, in contemplating his career, to look only
to his adversities, and toforget his subsequent splendid mili-
tary services? He deuied the statement that the Marines had
rendered to the Legion the services stated by the Noble
Lord ; and upon this point he had only to refer to the despatch
of Lord J. Hay. In point of fact the Marines did not, as had
been erroneously stated, bear the brunt of the action upon the
occasion referred to, and the best proof was they had only one
man killed and about twenty wounded. With respect to the
general question of the employment of the Marines, it was
stated at the time that the employment of the Marines seven
miles inland exceeded the limits of naval co-operation.
However, when he served before with Marines in the Isle
of France, and at Washington and Baltimore, both Ma-
rines and sailors were marched inland to an extent that
to a very great degree indeed exceeded the extent to which
they had been employed on the coast of Spain. It might be
said that the Legion had failed in their object, as they had
not been able to terminate the civil war in Spain ; but when it
was considered that this force did not average more than three
or four thousand men it would be folly to expect from such a
force anything more than auxiliary aid ; and he was happy to
have it in his power to say that the Spanish Government were
fully satisfied at the manner in which that aid had been
effected. Nothing that had taken place with respect to the
Q ,anish contest had given him (Sir G. Evans) more uneasi-
nest-I-
than the charges made against the commanding officers
of the Spanish army. He could only say on the part of those
officers—particularly with respect to General Espartero_
that a more honourable, more faithful, or braver man, or a
more true friend to his country, he ( Sir G. Evans) did not
think was in existence. With respect to a former part of his
statement there was one small item which he had omitted with
respect to the deaths in the Legion. They never lost as pri-
soners even a corporal's guard, and not one piece of their
1 artillery had been taken possession of by the enemy. Forty-
seven of the Legion fell into the hands of the enemy, on
ail of whom, be was sorry to say, the Durango decree had
been put in force.—( Hear, hear.) Eleven hundred Carlists
were taken prisoners by the Legion at different times, and all
had their lives spared.—( Hear, hear.) And still Gentlemen
on the other side could stand up and advocate the cause of
the monster who could thus butcher British subjects.---( Hear,
hear.) Notwithstanding great drawbacks the constitutional
cause was malting sure progress in Spain, as a proof
of which he could assert that all the great towns, even down to
those of 10,000 inhabitants, were in favour of the Queen's
Government. The nobility, too, with three exceptions, were
all Liberals. He (Sir G. Evans) concluded by moving that
the House do present an humble Address to her Majesty,
praying that she will be graciously pleased to give directions for
the production of all letters from the Spanish Government on
tee subject of the war, in which the opinion of her Most Ca-
the-lie Majeoty is expressed as to the services of the British
Auxiliary Legion.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE had listened with the great-
est attention the speech of the Gallant Officer who lied just
sat down,: and he must admit that he had performed his task
of vindicating- the Legion in an extremely moderate manner.
_( Hear.) At the same time, be must avow that, in so far as
his (Sir H. Hardinge's) statemeusis were conccrncd, he did not
find one word of refutation ; and he could assure the Hotase,
as well as the Gallant Officer, that if he could not, froth incon-
trovertible documents, maintain those statements, he would
take the earliest oportunity cf rising to withdraw them. But
he had nothing to withdraw—nothing to retract. He made aloee
statements on the authority of officers of the Legion; he had
not heard any attempt to refute them ; and, therefore, without
meaning any discourtesy to the Gallant Officer, he must beg
to soy that he had nothing to withdraw. The Gallant Officer
had complained of the obnoxious terms which the Conser-
vative press used in speaking of him. Could the Gallant
Officer be surprised at it ? Had not the Gallant Officer made
his public Letters to his constituents the vehicles for tirades
against the Conservative party ? Had be not even in his
military despatches abused the; arty;p and could he wonder
that the papers in the interest of. that party had commented
on his conduct with greater severity es'eeee was palatable to the
Gallant Officer—greater, perhaps, than eyes justifiable ?
(" Hear, hear, hear," and .c Leers, ) But what could the Gal- 1
lant Officer expect? Two leenei„reet and fifty .o 1 veers of ttlee
Legion returned to Euglarsel ,in ,dissnet, aid ,a neeessae:e
consequence of this Was, tleNt Alec puh,lie :mind should I
be filled with opinions, unfavourable .np;iaions, .of the
Legion, and a great deal of ee.aggeration he etealt
in by those who had left the Legion in disgeast.—.(Hear.)
;I:ande
aGallant
lOnsffii
acne r t alludednthn afratior
awthai
it,,rlanean(i
.S ix
HHe.
sHrt
aatreddee• gel
he (Sir 11. Ilardinge) had alluded in terms of rebuke to the
feet of the Legion having been employed in skirmishing' on
Sundays. Now, at the time to which the Gallant Officer
was
nie,reldyesPsr-i?ibc'el:dlini
alhaeled he ( Sir H. Hardiree) to quote
nassanee at Hernani, when he was interrupted' by a passage from Captain Hale's book, tame
Hirropecoinelabi
cheer from the Gallant Officer's side of the Housyt
not at all squeamish about fighting; on a Sunday, w'. hen n-eewe'sa-
sary—(" Hear. bear," and cheers)—and was merel reading
from Captain Hale's hook—a book which he musty say wag.
written in the spirit of a gentleman—the passage in which he

says that " On Sunday, the 30th of August, when the hearts ,
of his countrymen were elevated in prayer to Almighty God, l
his brethren in the service were employed in skirmishing."
He ( Sir Henry Hardinge) saw nothing objectionable in t
that—( Hear, hear, hear)—but the Gallant officer would
allow him to observe that, as an officer, there was some-
thing very objectionable in taking out the troops on that day.
If the Gallant Officer had any important military object in
view it might be justifiable, but when the business was merely
a reconnoissance it could have been quite as well on a Satur-
day or a Monday.—( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer said
that he had merely done it for exercise—that it was excellent
practice—thus making it evident that he had no important
military purpose in view, but merely wished to habituate his
troops in reconnoitring. But on these skirmishing expe-
ditions the troops of the Legion were always accompanied by
the Chapelgorris, a species of light troops, composed of the
people of St. Sebastian, and between whom and the Basques
no quarter was given. In his judgment it was extremely im-
prudent to commence the war with these troops, who were
known to be so fierce that after every engagement they put
their prisoners to death. He might be wrong in his statement
of this fact, but his authority was the officers of the Legion.
The Gallant Officer stated that the amount of sick at Vittoria
was not so large as had been said. What he ( Sir H. Har-
dingo) stated was, that the number of men who had lost their
lives by disease was about 500, which statement he took from
Captain Hale's book ; in fact, every statement he made was on
the authority of officers of the Legion.—( Hear, hear.) The
Gallant Officer also alluded to the book of Major Richardson ;
that book had lain on the Gallant Officer's table for ten
months, and the contents were never denied. He, therefore,
thought he was justified in using it as an authority. And
why ? Because Major Richardson stated that the book was
published under the Gallant Officer's inspection, and with his
consent, for the purpose of vindicating the character of the
Legion from the calumnies of the Press.—( Hear, hear.) Was
he not, then, authorised to refer to this book, written by an
officer of the Legion, and approved of by the Gallant Officer
himself ?—( Hear, hear.)
Sir G. EVANS—There were two books.
Sir H. H A RDINGE—He quoted from the book which
had lain for ten months on the Gallant Officer's table. The
passages about giving no quarter he took from the first edi-
tion. With respect to his observations about the sick, he
thought the Gallant Officer had taken an erroneous view
of them. What he complained of was, not of the deaths of
the Legion caused by. legitimate service—it was not that
the men had died—but that they had died unnecessarily.—
( Hear, hear.) Not of their sickness, but of the cause of that
sickness—the cruel neglect of the Spanish Government.
The Gallant Officer could not attempt to make a compari-
son between his troops in cantonments at Vittoria and the
Peninsular army under the Duke of Wellington. What
did Sir J. M'Gregor say of the thirteen months of the ser-
vice of the latter, comprising as it did four campaigns ?
--( Hear, hear.) What was performed by the Duke of Wel-
lington's army during that time? It took Ciudad Rodrigo
by storm, and captured Badajoz. Their next operation was
a march t) Salamanca, and, after the battle there, the British
army marched on Madrid, and forced 100,000 Frenchmen under
Soult to concentrate there, the consequence of which was that
Andalusia was left breathing-time, and great operations per-
formed. And they should consider, too, that the sick of that
army had to march thirty, or sometimes fifty miles a-day,
under a burning sun, to the hospital.—( Hear.) Of course a
large number died ; but they (tied from the exigencies of the
service, and everybody knew that in the summer the Spanish
climate was often as bad as the West Indies. This was only
the second campaign ; in the third they commenced operations
at Vittoria, and after the battle of Pampeluna, proceeded to
the Pyrenees. These were great operations.—( Hear.) In
the fourth campaign they marched into the :French territory,
fighting the battle of Orthes, and closing with that of Tou-
louse, at which he believed the Gallant Officer was severely
wounded. Surely there was no similarity between the cases.
—( Hear, hear.) But he ( Sir H. Hardinge) could state a
similar case, the case of an army of cantonments—that of Sir
William Clinton. In August, 1827, 5,000 men under that
officer went to Portugal, and remained there in canton-
ments a year. What took place there ? While the average
deaths amongst the Legion at Vittoria were as one in
five, in Portugal the deaths were in all thirty-three, or one in
sixty-six for six months. .But he had another statement, that
of Sir James M'Greeor. That officer stated that, in the
army of the Duke of 'Welliegton, the number of deaths from
December 13 to June 14, was 2,016, exclusive of wounded
cases, and this in an army of 60,000 men. He begged the
House to note that the army was stationed in the same loca-
lity as the Legion, and suffered deaths only in the proportion
of one to thirty, while those of the Legion were as one to five.
The only difference: was, that the army of the Duke of IVel-
lingon lived in tents. He must say that these comparisons
brought forward to excuse the calamities of the Legion did
not apply. The Gallent Officer had attempted to extenuate
the conduct of the Spanish Government. What did Dr. Al-
cock say on that subject ? Ile said that the number of deaths
in the Legion was 1.300 out of 7,000, besides which 500. were
incapacitated from duty, and thus 1,800 men were not fit for
the service. From this circumstance he thought he was jus-
tified in saying that the sufferings of the Legion were unneces-
sarily great. He would now state the circumstances in which
the Legion was placed in Vittoria. The Gallant Officer, al-
though he ( Sir H. Hardinge 1 might not think highly of his
iudgment in accepting of such a command, with his slight ex-
perience, was not to blame for leaving them there—the impo-
Viey lay with the Noble Lord opposite.—(Cheers.) On him
only rested the responsibility. Now, there was a book written
by a Brigadier-General in the Legion, and he (Sir Henry
Hardinge) had taken pains to extract some passages which
were very much to the point in dispute—namely, whether our
countrymen fell a sacrifice fairly and honourably, as soldiers,
or to the unnecessary and cruel neglect of the Spanish Govern-
ment ? What did General Shaw say ? That the sick died
from the total absence of comfort ; that there were but 400
beds in the hospital; that no officer visited them ; that tile
filth was dreadful ; that there were no blankets ; and that
those who did venture in were nearly knocked down by the
effluvia; that the men were often left four days without a
surgeon, and that seventeen men were left in a dark room for
48 hours, whilst suffering from a severe dysentery.—( Hear. )
Now, he would ask, with all the excuse the Gallant Officer
could make, were not these dreadful events attributable to
the policy of the Government that sent the men there ?
( Hear, hear.) What did Major Hale say ? That the Legion
suffered at Vittoria from want of food and want of clothing ;
He then spoke of the bad faith of the Spanish Government.
Theie were the statements which he ( Sir H. Hardinge) used
last year, and these were his authorities. Had the Gallant
Officer impeached those authorities? Had he impugned those
statements ? He ( Sir H. Hardinge) had not heard him do so.
There was another authority which he would take the liberty
of quoting on this subject, one which the Hon. Member for
Kilkenny, if in his place, would recognise—lie meant Sergeant
Somerville.—( A laugh.) This Somerville was flogged while
in the Scotch Greys, after which a subscription of 100/. was
raised for him by the Liberal party ; he went to Spain and
wrote a book, in which he describes what took place in
Vittoria. The sufferings he enumerates were dreadful.
Many of the men were described as severely frost-bitten. The
whole presented a living mass of corruption. The dead and
the quick were huddled together, and even in the sight of the
living the very rats came forth to prey upon the carcases and
to take their part in the work of destruction.—( Hear, hear.)
For this terrible mortality the Government which sent these
unhappy men out to meet their deaths were surely answerable.
—( Loud cheers.) The Gallant Officer had argued that
deaths were contingent to all armies, but surely they were not
contingencies recurring in such proportion. He also spoke as
if the men were well fed and that there was no destitution.
Now a reference to Colonel Humphrey's book would show that
they were quite scant of clothing, and their destitution was
further testified by General O'Connell, a brave and resolute
officer, who threw up his commission in consequence of the
treatment of the troops under his command. According to
that gentle man the conduct of the Spanish Government was
most infamous. Colonel Shaw, in his book, stated that when
the troops in Portugal were about to embark on their return
home they were disarmed and treated as convicts. How
were they treated at St. Sebastian ? They were told by the
order isssaed by the Secretary-at-War, and published in the
papers. After being defrauded of their pay—after enduring
every ws'mt and every privation, the direction in the order was
that they should be compelled to embark if they did not do so
willingly. —(Hear, hear, hear.) The entire conduct of 'the
Spanish Government with respect to those men was most in-
famous.—(:Cheers.) He would next advert to the matter as in
a military 100 int of view, though from the temperate spirit of
the Gallant Officer he should feel pained at being obliged to
do so. He :must, however, say that he differed with the Gal-
lant Officer ;as to his system of applying corporal punishment.
The disciplit ie of the Legion was conducted in a manner not
justified by the Articles of War. At St. Sebastian the men
were subject t ,cl to the punishment of two dozen lashes at the will
of the officer s.—(,Hear.) Any competent witness testifying as
to any crimie ,al act, the man was whipped at once. Thus a sum-
mary viunisb ment was always to be applied at the pleasure of
any of' the t )fficers. Indeed, General Shaw went further, and
stated t'nat this punishment could be inflicted by subalterns.
. {Hem, bear.) Thus, at the mere will of a subaltern, an old
Water!, to man might be subjected to two dozen lashes.—
(Hear,ee r
mangenc
tyn,
theand
fact.ev en tlhne nlBtht 01
bear.) The Provost system in the British army was
tsescatoefhetnili
Provost •sel
the Duk ..e of Wellington issued an order that on no account
should t he officers order the Provost-sergeant to flog a
waspsma.
only re! torleatnot inm nese
—( Heat ~ hear.) The system adopted in the Legion
monstroi as exercise of power, and he must be forgiven if he
d his astonishment at seeing it adopted by one who
expresse
had alto tys professed himself favdourable to the total abolition
of flogging in the army.—( Lou cheers.) Before he went
out to SI min the Gallant Officer had in 1834 voted against
military i legging. The Gallant Officer was of course en-
titled to es itertain his own opinion, but when he found him-
self at th• e head of 4,000 or 5,000 men, it was not to he won-
dered at th a; s he was compelled to make his practice different
teem his tis eory.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He hoped
these ,;he Gall ant Officer would be able to give a satisfactory
explanation e f this matter in the course of his reply. And
hi also hope i that, though the practice of flogging was
will of an individual.—
,neoseeeer rto the service and indispensable for the preserva-
tion of ,d lira amongst 4,000 men, the cases which had
spec'
Spain would be the last men of British
occurred VI
egged4,slineatthecapricious
roofs be ine;; e • , far that Major Dixon
c(Cheere. ) It was carried so
a man wl len dirty or not fit for parade was ordered two dozen.
He (Sir IL Beit'ing e) had stated last year that the Legion
mutinied because of not receiving their pay, and in consequence
of disput ss as to the time of service. The instances of down-
rieht mu tiny given in General Shaw's book were endless.—
(Hear, h ear.) The Durango decree had been alluded to as
if those on his ( Sir H. Hardinge's) side of the House had
wished ts , palliate it. For his own part, he had always de-
nouced tas an assassir-like ec ree— Loud cheerin )—nd
had said that Don Carlos h dad dislu -(
alified himself fora the

Throne of Spain in consequence of having issued it. His
Right Hon. Friend beside him, too, ( Sir R. Peel) had said
in his place that no earthly advantage could possibly accrue to
this country by the success of Don Carlos. Why, then, was
it insinuated that those on his side of the House had palliated
the Durango decree? Horrors and atrocities there were on
both sides ; and he ( Sir H. Hardinge) had it from a gentle-
man whose son served in Spain that troops were frequently sent
out at night to seize upon and burn the Carlist villages, and
put the men to death. Further, with respect to this Durango
decree the Gallant Officer stated in a letter addressed to his
constituents of Westminster that it was an insult to the
national power of this country. If so, with whom was the
fault? Was it they (the Opposition) or the Gentlemen on the
other side of the House who submitted to the insult ?—(Loud
cheers.) The Gallant Officer, in speaking of the disaster at
Hernani, argued that retreats were common to all armies.
From the Gallant Officer's account the exertions of the
Legion were not very great; and if he ( Sir H. Hardinge)
had said anything severe against the Legion the severity was
not equal to that conveyed in the terms of the Gallant Gen-
tleman's own despatch. The Gallant Gentleman described
the first battalion as having given way on the instant, and
yielding up a position from which they might have destroyed
the enemy—that the disorder gained ground—arid that no
efforts of the officers could again rally them. Surely from the
Gallant Officer's own account he ( Sir H. Hardinge) was
warranted in concluding that such men could never prove ef-
fective.—( Hear, hear.) They were opposite a force not their
superiors in number. There were five thousand British troops,
including the Marines, and nine thousand Spanish troops.
There were sixteen pieces of British artillery, well served,
and ten pieces of Spanish artillery. Such was the force,
and yet those on his ( Sir H. liardinge's) side of the
House who had spoken of the panic did not impute so much
blame as the Gallant Officer.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
hoped the statement was exaggerated. He ( Sir H. Har-
dinge) had not intended to exaggerate it. When the Gallant
Officer compared the retreats which had taken place during
the Peninsular war with the disaster at Hernani he should re-
member that disasters were always unfortunate, whilst a retreat
might be a most brilliant achievement. In the whole of the
peninsular war in which he had been engaged with his illustri-
ous Commander the British army never attacked a position
which it did not carry, nor defended one which it d'd not main-
tain.—(Loud cheers.) He must say that the conduct of the
Government with respect to the British Legion was exceed.;
ingly erroneous, and that the lives of the men who had been
thus sacrificed were thrown away in a most unjustifiable'
manner.—( Cheers.) Discredit, too, had been thrown upon
the military character of England, notwithstanding the courage
of the men and officers engaged in that unfortunate expedition.
—( Hear, hear.) Misery and ruin had been brought down
upon the families of the men and officers who had been in-
duced to join it, and the House would not do its duty by the
country unless it marked its disapprobation of the whole pro-
ceeding.—( Cheers.) He hoped his Noble Friend the Mem-
ber for East Cornwall, who had been sent out on a mission to
Spain, ‘A hich he had so well executed, and who was, of course,
well acquainted with all relating to that country, would bring
forward some motion on the subject, and take the sense of the
House upon it. The Right Hon. Baronet concluded amidst
loud cheers.
Lord E LIOT would state to the House the course he in-
tended to pursue. He would not enter into the military part
of the question, but he would take the earliest opportunity of
calling the attention of the House to the subject. He felt the
more inclined to do so, as since the question was last discussed
a new Parliament had been assembled, and to give the fullest
scope to inquiry his motion would be to call the attention of
the House to the course of policy pursued by her Majesty's
Government with respect to Spain.
Sir R. H. VIVIAN would not deny that there had been
much suffering amongst the Legion, and he would also admit
that there had been great want of attention in the hospitals ;
but if Hon. Gentlemen would revert to the past history of our
ossn armies, it would be found that on various occasions the
suffering had been as great—that the sick had been as nume-
rous, and were obliged to undergo privations almost as great
s those endured by the Legion. In respect to the question
of corporal punishments in the army, he ( Sir Hussey Vivian)
was not prepared to say whether the measures taken by his
Hon. and Gallant Friend were strictly according to the Arti-
cles of War or not—(Cheers from the Opposition)—but un-
der any circumstances he thought that great allowances should
be made for the situation in which his Honourable and Gallant
Friend was placed. He ( Sir H. Vivian) would not go at any
length into a comparison of the corps commanded by the
Duke of' Wellington in Spain, and that under the com-
mand of his Hon. and Gallant Friend, for he had always con-
sidered it a disadvantage to his Hon and Gallant Friend to have
to command any corps on ground rendered glorious by the
deeds of that illustrious individual. But the circumstances un-
der which his Hon. arid Gallant Friend had taken the com-
mand entrusted to him, and the nature and quality of the
force he had to direct and govern, should be properly esti-
mated before coming to any conclusion on the subject. Land-
ing as they had done in a country where every man was their
enemy, except those with whom they acted—( Cheers from the
Opposition benches)—he (Sir H. Vivian) understood that
cheer, and it only fortified him in the belief that her Majesty's
Government had done perfectly right in affording to the
Spanish Government that assistance which they had a distinct
right to call on under the faith of treaties. The Hon. and
Gallant Member then entered into a recapitulation of the
history of the Legion while in active service, on the authority
of officers of undoubted credit, and professed to prove that his
Hon. and Gallant Friend could not have acted better than he
did, nor the Legion either. Out of sixteen actions in which
that Bon. and Gallant Officer and the Legion had been en-
gaged, they were unsuccessful in two only, namely, in the
attack on Fontarabia and in the affair of Hernani. All through
the part of the war in which they had been engaged their con-
duct had been most remarkable for courage and humanity, not-
withstanding the cruelties daily perpetrated on their fellow-
soldiers by the Carlists, when they fell into their hands as
prisoners. Thus was that gallant Legion so disparaged in
this country by a corrupt party, and a profligate press, who
had both spoken their worst of them.
Lord MA HON had no complaint to make in regard of the
manner in which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had introduced'
his name into the observations he hail thought proper to make-.
—it was marked with courtesy, and he ( Lord Mahon) hoped'
that in the same spirit it should be met by him. The Hon.
and Gallant Gentleman had said that he ( Lord Mahon) stated
on a former occasion that a great number of the Legion had at
one time gone into action drunk. Now the fact was that lie
had never stated any such thing. The Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman had also said that he (Lord Mahon) and those Hon.
Members on his side of the House had reserved all their pity
for the soldiers of the Legion, as regarded the stoppage of
their pay, until the Spanish Government, by refusing to pay
them, left them in distress; but he ( Lord Mahon) could spee-
dily convince the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman that such was
not the case, especially as regarded himself ; for in the debate
of the 24th of June, 1833, he ( Lord Mahon) had expressed
"a wish to know who would secure to the soldiers of the Le-
gion the pay for which they had contracted." He had also
showed that " many of the men had joined that corps in the
belief that their pay, and all other contingencies, were gua-
ranteed by the British Government, and that it would be a
great hardship on them to find no compensation when they
had given their services ; and no mode of recovering it in case
anything should occur." He (Lord Mahon) was not compel
tent to enter on the military part of the question, and, there=
fore, those were the only parts of the Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman's speech which he felt called on to answer. The po-
litical question involved in the whole transaction would be a
subject of discussion on a future day; and he should reserve
any observations he had to make on it until then.
Mr. TENNYSON D'EYNCOURT condemned the ne-
gligence of the Spanish Government in permitting such a
state of hostility to the Legion as had been manifested in
Spain; but at the same time he considered her Majesty's Mi-
nisters had acted with good faith in keeping the terms of the
treaty with it. The topic, however, which he should touch
on was the deficiency of the payment. There was no doubt
whatever that on that part of the business the Spanish
Government did not do right.--( Hear, hear.) He should
not allude to the second Legion further than to say
that he believed a great number of the men were at
large on the shores of Spain, in the extremity of dis-
tress described by the Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.
The feelings of his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) he
(Mr. T. D'Eyncourt) well knew when it was asserted and
uncontradicted that these men had been invited to enlist in the
Legion by the Order in Council; and he thought, therefore,
that every attention should be paid to the claims of these de-
serted individuals by his Noble Friend. It was the bounden
duty of her Majesty's Government to enforce on the Spanish
Government the necessity of keeping faith with these helpless
men, who had poured out their blood in its service.—( Hear.)
At this 'clement there was not less than from 200,0001. to
250,0001. due to the Legion.
Sir R. INGLIS held that no body of men had a right to
destroy the lives of their fellow-creatures without lawful com-
mands to that effect. In the present instance he totally de-
nied the legality of the command under which the Legion had
acted. He had beard, it was true, of an Order in 'Council
which invited the men to enlist ; but that did not alter
the case ; it only transferred the guilt of an unrighteous
war from the Honourable and Gallant Officer to her Ma-.
jesty's Ministers. Too much or too little had been done in
the matter.
Colonel DAVIS believed that the Government in this
country were right in the course of policy they had adopted on
this occasion, notwithstanding that the conduct of Spain in not
fulfilling the engagements she had entered.into with the Legion
could not be for a moment justified.
Captain BOLDER() said that the lion. Member for Lam-
beth was quite right in throwing the whole blame on the
Spanish Government. However, he forgot when he com-
plained of the severe animadversions directed against the
Gallant Member for Westminster that lie had left the claims
of the widows, orphans, and wounded soldiers of the Legion
unsettled at St. Sebastian, and unadsocated at home, though
a considerable amount was still due to them. He thought that
the Hon. Member in neglecting that duty exhibited a want of
feeling, of justice, and of generosity, highly discreditable.—
( Hear.) The scenes at Vittoria proved his total unfitness to
conduct a campaign in Spain, and too late conveyed a lesson
of his rashness in neglecting the advice he had received pre-
vious to his departure to lay in proper and sufficient stores.
He highly eulogized the conduct of the Marines employed on
that coast : but, considering the character of the struggle, lie
had come to the conclusion that the only creditable way for
England to get out of this unhappy strife was to withdraw her
naval forces altogether, and let the bloodthirsty scoundrels fight
it out amongst themselves. When Captain Napier went out and
took Don Miguel's fleet be did not act in such an ungenerous
way towards the brave men who sustained him. He staid to
see them settled ; acid, if the Portuguese Government had not
done them justice, would, he was convinced, have come away
with the fleet he had taken, and raised the needful on it.—
( Hear, and laughter.) How did the Gallant Officer opposite

act in similar circumstances? He left his men unpaid at St.
Sebastian, either to be starved into the Spanish service that
withheld their pay, or shoved aboard at the point of the bayonet.
Mr. CHARLES WOOD said that Lord John Hay had
assured him that nothing of the kind could have occurred at
St. Sebastian, for each man left there had only been enlisted
of his own free-will, as had been ascertained in the presence
of a British officer. About 80 of the best men had re-enlisted.
He was happy to say that every private and non-commissioned
officer had been paid up to the day of their discharge, with
marching money. The pensions to the widows and orphans
had also been paid up regularly, and what was still due to
that class was only their gratuities.
Lord PAL NIE LISTON thought his Hon. and Gallant
Friend had been entirely successful in repelling the imputa-
tions cast on himself and others under his command. He
thought they should not have any repetition of those imputa-
tions. His Hon. Friend had called attention to the sub-
ject of the claims of the officers of the Legion yet un-
settled by the Spanish Government. He could assure him
that they had not escaped the attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and he believed he might say that
their affairs were now in a satisfactory train towards a
settlement. There were large balances undoubtedly due to
them by the Spanish Government. He could not say the pre-
cise sum, as the Spanish Government had not yet furnished
the account. They (the Ministers) had most urgently appealed
to that Government to attend to these claims and settle them
without delay. It was at one time intended to establish a
Commission for this purpose in Madrid, and at another in
San Sebastian, but it was now determined more convenient to
hold it in London. However, the Spanish Government had
consented, without waiting to investigate the claims of each
individual, to send a large sum for the relief of their imme-
diate wants. He was happy to confirm the statement of his
Hon. Friend who had preceded him respecting the payments
already made to the privates, non-commissioned officers,
widows, and orphans of the Legion, and hoped that, in a
little time, those of the officers would also be liquidated. He
hoped that, the Noble Lord would give them a few days' notice
of his motion, and be prepared to state the day on which he
would bring it on.
Sir G. EVANS explained that the Noble Lord was in
error in his imputations respecting his ( Sir G. Evans's) con-
duct on leaving St. Sebastian on the 10th of June, 1837.
The men said they would wait to see if the money due to them
would come or not. He had no concern with the plan of the
Spanish Government to recruit among the Legion, and .no
reason to stay any longer there.—( A laugh.) The money
did come, the men were paid—some returned with it, and
some staid to re-enlist. Some Hon. Members opposite
said that the service of the Spanish Government was so bad
that our men should not be suffered to enlist in it.—( Hear,
hear.) But these men were free agents, and we had no power
to prevent them if they would. On the subject of corporal
punishments, he must beg leave to say a word. The Right
Hon Member opposite doubted if the Provost system was
legal, as applied to the army. Now, he would not go past the
authority of the Duke of Wellington, the finest of all authori-
ties such a subject. He stated in his evidence before the
Parliamentary Committee, that there was no authority for it
beyond the custom of the British Army, and that it was impos-
sible to carry on the discipline of that army without a consider-
able extension of it.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the Gallant Member had
both misunderstood him and misapplied the authority of the
Duke of Wellington. What he had especially complained
of, and what the Noble Duke had never done or sanctioned,
was the empowering every subaltern in his army to inflict the
punishment of the lash at his pleasure.—(llear, hear.) Its
defence came with an especial bad grace from the Gallant
Member, who bad himself, in his place, advocated its aboli-
tion.—( Cheers.)
Sir G. DE LACY EVANS said it was perfectly true that
he had advocated the repeal of corporal punishment, but in
doing so he declared that he would not consent to abolish it
except under certain conditions. In the evidence he gave
ite fore the Commission appointed to inquire into the snbjcct,
e expressly stated it as his opinion that it could only be
done gradually, and that it would be impracticable to do it sud-
denly in an army in actual service ; and to this opinion he still
adhered.
Sir H. HARDINGE observed that the question was one
which they would have an opportunity of discussing on an-
other day.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. JAMES, at the request of the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer, postponed his motion for returns connected with the
Church until after Easter.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. WOULFE, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the laws relating to the Registration of Voters in Ire-
land, said, that the law of Ireland on this subjoct was very
stringent, and a party claiming to be placed upon the registry
was obliged to submit to a rigid scrutiny before his right
could be allowed. By the law as it stood, every person claim-
ing the elective franchise was subject to this scrutiny, with
the exception of the 50/. freeholders, and those of the Clergy
who claim the right of voting in respect of their benefices.
They were bound to give public notice of their intention to
be placed on the registry thirty days before the Quarter Ses-
sions, and in this notice they must specify the particulars 'of
their title to the qualification in respect of what they claimed,
and prove their right in each case. It was not his intention
to alter the law in this respect, but instead of allowing the
right of appeal from the adjudication of the Revising Barris.
ters to one party only, he proposed that it should be extended
to both. At present the appeal lay only when the decision
was unfavourable to the claimant. There was another
point which he proposed should also be altered, and that
was the right of a party to remain on the registry for eight
years, notwithstanding he had parted with his quaiifica.
tion or changed his domicile.—( Hear, hear.) It was not his
intention to take the revision of the lists out of the hands of
the assistant barristers ; but instead of sitting in each county
every year, he meant that, though they should have their
Courts yearly, their duty should be so arranged as that they
would sit in each county only every two years.- He thought
there could be no objection to the assistant barristers on the
ground of partiality, as many of these gentlemen had been
appointed by former Administrations, and more than a majo-
rity of them were opposed to the present Government. Now,
with respect to the Court of Appeal, what he proposed was
this--that when a question of law arose respecting the right
of the party claiming to be on the registry the assistant bar-
risters should draw up a case, stating the facts, and then refer
the matter for decision either to the Court of Queen's Bench
or to some other Court where it could be fully and properly.
argued. The question of value was that respecting which the -
greatest difficulties arose, and it was clear that it could only
be dealt with satisfactorily in the way which he proposed.
There was great difference of opinion regarding beneficial in-
terests ; and although he took his own view of the law on the
subject, he was aware that others entertained a contrary opi-
nion. 1-Its, however, wished the matter to be fully and fairly
discussed, as it was a point so important that it ought to be
settled on way or the other.—(hear, hear.) •
Lord ST ANL E Y said, the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman was in error in supposing that the Irish Reform Bill
adopted the present system of registration as one of its charac-
teristics. On the contrary, what he said was, that when they
had tested the experiment made in England it was their in-
tention to assimilate the law between the two countries as far:
as circumstances would allow. ( Hear, hear.) The first ques-
tion of difficulty lay at the root of the evil. They had not in:
Ireland, though he hoped they shortly would, any test for de-
termining the question of value ; and what was the result?
Why, hard swearing before the Committees of that House on
the one side as well as on the other—in support of as well as
against the claim. —( Hear.) He was not desirous of raising any
unnecessary difficulties in the way of this Bill; but it was,
at the same time, his duty to mention any fundamental
difficulty which appeared to him to be connected with it,
and which required the utmost caution, on the part of
the House, in endeavouring to surmount it.—( Hear, hear.)
He did not consider that the Bill required any expedition
to be used in its passage through the House—( Hear, hear)—
but, on the contrary, that it would require to be watched with
the greatest possible circumspection ; and he was particularly
anxious, before it passed, to know the fate of another very im-
portant measure relating to a similar subject. That Bill once
passed, and they would have no excuse for building upon sand
when a sure foundation was afforded them. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated that the benefits attached to the pre-
sent law of appeal were all on one side, and he proposed to
subject all the present constituencies of Ireland to these Ap-
peal Courts—that cases of law should be referred to the
Judges, and cases of taxes to these Courts. He intimated
that at an annual registration it would not be allowable to enter
into all these statements; but he (Lord Stanley) wished to
know from the Right Hon. Gentleman if a voter once re-
gistered, and having a decision of the two barristers constitut-
ing the Court of Appeal in his favour, should remain on the
register for life ?—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WOULFE said—No ; only for eight years, in accord-
ance with the present system.
Lord STANLEY would admit that the explanation of the
Right Hon. Gentleman had done away with very much of his
objections to the measure.--( Hear, hear.) If, however, it
were necessary that they should have a system in Ireland simi-
lar to the one in England, in his opinion it would be better
that voters should be brought to a test of their vote before an
annual tribunal, rather than that they should be called upon
for it at intervals of eight years.—( Hear, hear.) Gentlemen
on that side of the House were in favour of opening the Re-
gister, while Hon. Gentlemen opposite were opposed to doine.
so ; and whenever, in the case of a disputed election, the
question of whether or not the Register should be opened was
discussed, according to the result of the decision of the Com-
mittee on that point, an almost positive opinion might be given
as to how the Committee would decide on the petition itself.
—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right lion. Gentleman
that it was of the deepest importance that the legal question
should be satisfactorily settled, and he pledged himself that the
details of the measure should be discussed on his side of the
House, in the same spirit as that in which the measure was
now brought for ward by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL characterised the speech of the
Noble Lord as a speech full of party feeling—(" No, no,"
from the Opposition side)—and one which was more fit for one
of the Committee-rooms up stairs than that House. It was
agreed on all hands that the present system was bad, and this
Bill professed to find a remedy for it. He agreed, however,
with the Noble Lord, that it required much deliberation, ant
hoped that after this little outbreak of party feeling{ the
would conic, at a future opportunity, to a calm considetatic
of the subject.
Sir R. BATE SON did not consider that there had; bei
any exhibition of party feeling on his side of the Heusi, a
that if there had been any provocation to it, it had prodpecl
from the Hon. Gentleman on the other side of the fleti4e w
had just sat down.---( Hear, hear.) Ile objected to the Tippl
from the registration Courts being left to be made to
I Barristers.
eosi*- Sir W, FOLLETT said that all parties in that [kW'
•

en
ind
led
rho

were

satisfied of the imperfection of the present system, and he
thought that the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman ap-
peared to be a great improvement upon it ; but he did not
think it was wise to propose that the registry should be final
for eight years, and he did not see why, in that respect, the
cases should be different in Ireland and in England, because
in times of great political excitement a large number of
voters might be placed upon the register for a period of eight
years—( Hear, hear )—who had no right whatever to be there
at all. The English mode of valuation was the only satisfac-
tory one, and he was quite sure that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would never be able to pass such a proposition through
that House.—( Hear.) He warned the Right Hon. Gentle-
man against it, as it would be re-opening the door to that
very system of perjury which they had so long seen exposed
before the Irish Election Committees. There was another
clause which required consideration. He die not think they
would ever come to any thing like a satisfactory mode of try-
ing controverted elections until that House parted with all ad-
judication upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He should pro-
test, however, against the adoption of any principle having the
effect of taking away from that House all decisions as to Irish
elections, and leaving it with regard to English and Scotch
elections.—( Hear, -hear, hear.) That point was one which
required great consideration, arid he did not think it was
one on which the Right Hon. Gentleman would find the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department go
along with him.—( Hear, hear,) He ( Sir W. Follett) thought
that an inquiry as to whether the House ought to part
with its adjudication on election petitions ought to form a part
of the general plan with reference to this Bill—( Hear, hear)—
as well as whether, in parting with such a power, they ought
to place it in the hands of men holding their appointments
directly from the Government.—( Hear, hear.) That he
thought constituted a very strong objection to the measure of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, however good it might be in many
respects.—( Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir W. Follett) had attached a
meaning to the words of his Noble Friend which they did not
admit of. On the occasion of the Controverted Elections
Bill of the Hon. Member for Liskeard being before the
. House his Noble Friend said, with respect to a proposition to
part with the jurisdiction of the House in cases of controverted
elections, that whenever such a subject came to be considered
he hoped that the House would consider with caution what
would be calculated to produce one of the greatest changes in
the jurisdiction of the House that had taken place for the last
two hundred years. But with regard to the second objec-
tion respecting the finality of the registry, the Right Hon.
Gentleman carried his argument too for in saying that to
make the registry final would be to abandon the jurisdiction
of the House. Now, he did not think so. They were quite
distinct, and it was not now for the first time that a proposi-
tion to make the registry final had been discussed in that
House. A proposition had been made to make the registry
in England final, and in the discussion of that proposition it
was never suggested by any that in doing so the House of
Commons would thereby estop itself. Undoubtedly, if they
made the registry final, they would thereby limit their juris-
diction, but it would by no means limit the House of Com-
mons with respect to many other grounds upon which elec-
tions might be controverted. Making the registration final
and abdicating the jurisdiction of the House were quite dis-
tinct, and one might be carried into effect without going the
ength of proposing the other.
After a few words from Sir W. FOLLETT in expla-

nation,
Mr. LITTON wished to take that opportunity to call the
attention of the House to the fact that ten out of the twelve
Judges in Ireland, on deliberate consideration, and after hear-
ing the arguments of Counsel for two days on the construction
of the Reform Bill, had decided that the value as to freehold
was to be determined by what it would bring if sold, and as to
leasehold, by what it would let for to a solvent tenant. There
certainly were two of the Judges who entertained a different
opinion, but these were the two junior Judges, and both of
them held office under the present Government. Those who
agreed in that opinion included the ten senior Judges of the
Irish bench. The criterion of value was what they stated it
to be, and not what it was stated to be in the declaratory
clauses of the present Bill.
Mr. WOULFE was sure that the Noble Lord (Lord Stan-
ley) and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Sir W. Follett)
did not intend by is hat had fallen from them to influence others
out of the House, but certainly it was calculated to have that
effect. What they had said was calculated to affect the opi-
nions of individuals sitting out of the House in another ca-
pacity. Ile did not think that anything he had said justified.
such a course, for he had abstained from any argument on those
disputed points, and had merely said that great difference of
opinion 'prevailed respecting them, which it was desirable to
have settled. The Noble Lord the Member for North Lan-
cashire to the opinions he had expressed had added the weight
of his personal authority, by stating that, if he were sitting ors
a Committee he would feel himself bound to act on that con-
struction of the law that the registry was open to scrutiny by a
Committee of the House of Commons. Now, he ( Mr-
Woulfe) entertained quite a different view from that held by
the Noble Lord. In his opinion a Member of a Conunititeat
would be bound to act on that construction of the statutes t
la
a Committee of the House of Commons had no power to oven
the registry in Ireland. It was true that the Judges in 'Fe-
land had given an opinion different from him on the questiott
of value. (" Ten out of twelve.") Yes, he admitted that.
they were unequally divided—( A laugh)—but surely the'
opinions of Judges Perrin and Richards could not be lightly'
spoken of. The Right lion. Gentleman proceeded to con-
tend that the words "beneficial interest" had not been lightly
or inaptly introduced into the Reform Bill, and that these
words were intended to admit a construction different from that
given under former Acts, and bore that construction which was
given them in the declaratory clauses of the present Bill.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON said that if there was any quest-
tion which ought to be considered satisfactorily settled, it was
the question with respect to the meaning of " beneficial inte-
rest." Could there be any fact more emphatic on this point
than this, that one of the ten Judges who concurred in the on
put upon those words was Mr. Justice Crampton,
who was law-officer in Ireland whilst the Reform Bill was 14
transitu, and who must have known what were the intentions,
of the Legislature and what the construction of the law vras,
He was glad, however, that the Bill had been brought in, an'
would give it a fair and candid consideration.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
BELFAST LUNATIC ASYLUM.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON moved for copies of all corre-
spondence which has taken place between the Irish Govern-
ment and the governors or officers of the Belfast Lunatic
tha AsY;
lum, respecting the case of Robert Brakley, sent to
asylum by order of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, from 111,0
gaol of the county of Down, in April, 1836; together matcopies of all resolutions of the said governors, touching tba
case, transmitted to the Irish Government. There was na
practice in Ireland of the Executive Government taking nP°-
themselves to order the reception of persons into these ass"
lums contrary to the provisions of an Act of Parliament,
which limited the right to certain cases. The case with re-
spect to which he moved for these papers was one of an aggra„'
vated nature. A man had been sent to the asylum, and, wilt"
admitted there, was told by the medical attendants that De
ought to be sent back to his friends, as he was not insane.,
The governors of the institution called on the Government
for his discharge, and so much delay occurred that from the
excitement and anxiety caused by the delay the man ultimateli
became insane, and died raving mad. He thought this was a
question of public importance, and he now moved for the pro-
duction of the correspondence referred to.
Lord MORPETH had no objection to the production 1
these papers. He feared, however, that when the papers
were produced it would appear that there was some delay
owing to some misapprehension on the part of one of the
clerks in the Irish Office. Delay had undoubtedly taken pla, ,
in several quarters, and lastly on the part (as we understoo arii
of the Governors of the Lunatic Asylum. There was a
irregularity in the original committal which must be laid at
,
the door of the Chief Baron. Mr. Brakley was committed
to the gaol of Down, but on the representation of the gaoler
was removed to the Belfast Lunatic Asylum. After sot'.
further statement of the circumstances of the case the Nobw
Lord stated that he had no objection to the production of the
papers moved for.
Sir R. BATE SON made a few observations condenv
natory of the circumstances under which the unfortunate
individual was admitted into the Belfast Lunatic Asylnn?'
and of the delay that took place respecting the order for lila
discharge.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. MORGAN J. O'CONNELL had a petition to
present respecting the Belfast Election, from the Agent...,l
the petitioners deending the return of Lord Belfast ';;
Mr. Gibson, complaining of demands made by the prose,„
sitting Members for Belfast and their Agent for certain ,_
penses, &c. He should merely move that the petition i''
printed with the Votes.
After a few words from Mr. DUNBAR and Colonel PF"
CEVAL,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL postponed the presentation 49f
the petition until this day.
SUPPLY. , votes
The Report of the Committee on the unobjectionable
was brought up and agreed to.
DISSENTERS' RELIEF BILL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second rot
ing of this Bill. He stated that a Bill had been introduce._
by the Hon. Member for Leeds for the same object, the Pr,°vse
sloes of which did not include assessors. Several of tlci
officers had been lately elected, and it was to extend the relief
to them that the present Bill was introduced.
The Bill was then read a second time; after which tl'°-
House adjourned at Five Minutes past One o'Ccloc___.—...--_-!.!k.

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