The Sun.
London, England, 1825-03-29 00:00:00

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mittee, he thought the expence ought to be defrayed by the
congregations, and not by the public at large. After sorb a
proceeding, with what face could he consent to tax his consti-
tuents for the maintenance of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy ?
He never would do so ; and were he the only individual in the
House hostile to such a proposition, he' ould persevere in his
opposition to it. With respect to the other proposal, for
interfering with the Representation of Ireland, the nature
of it was directly adverse to the principles which he had
all his life been advocating. eras he not one of the Friends
of the People in 1793—(A laugh) ?—lle had always been
for extending, not for limiting, the right of voting. If a
forty-shilling qualification were considezed, .aa' too small for
an elector in Ireland, what was to prevent its being considered
' as too small for an elector in England ? But how would such a
proposition be -relished in this country ? He thought himself
as good a voter in the county of Durham as any man, and vet
his qualification did not exceed 31.—(A laugh).—Yet such a
proposition as that of the lion. lklember for Staffordshire would
destroy all such qualifications. Look at many of our tenures.
Look at the practice of Knareshorough, where the burgesses
voted with a wet seal. Was it not indeed the practice of all
burgage tenures to vote with a wet seal ? All these might as
well be disturbed as.the elective franchise of the forty shilling
freeholders in Ireland. lie was extremely sorry at the intro-
duction of this proposition. Had the Bill gone on as it was
going on, it must have triumphed in that House, and after two
or three essions the other House would have found it impos-
sible longer, to withstand the general opinion in its favour. But
he would now tell the Honourable 111 ember for Statilmalshire,
that if he meant success to Catholic Emancipation (and he
did notdoubt that he earnestly wished it), he had taken the
very worst course that could possibly be adopted for obtaining
that object.
Sir R. SHAW waspersuaded, that nothing was so likely to
conciliate the minds of the Protestants of Ireland as the pro-
posed alteration in the elective franchise, and the proposed
provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy. He had received a
number of-letters from Ireland, all concurring in the opinion,
that if those two measures were agreed to, the opposition to the
Catholic Emancipation Bill would be almost
„entirely done
away with.
Sir J. NEWPORT was anxious on all occasions to state
full and frankly his opinions upon the various questions that
were brought before that House ; and he was, of course, espe-
cially solicitous to do so with reference to that vitally important
measure,- notice of a proposition respecting which had just been
given by the Hon. Member for Staffordshire. Ile felt peculiar
anxiety on this subject, because he was convinced, in his own
mind, that the Hon. Gentleman's proposition would tend ma-
terially to facilitate the progress of the . measure of which he
(Sir J. Newport) had been far twenty three years in the House,
and forty years out of the House, the unceasing advocate. If
he had failed to convince the House that he was was warmly at-
tached to the real freedom of election, and eaceedint'ly desirous
to maintain the substantial rights of the licople, down to the
lowest ranks in society, he had for many years been labouring
in vain. But when the Hon. Member for Durham said he be-
lieved the Catholic Question would triumph in two or 'three
Sessions, without these injurious appendages, as he- termed
them : he (Sir J. Newport), who knew something more of Ire-
land than the Honourable Gentleman—(hear, bear, hear !)__
begged leave to tell him, that the consequences of deferring
the emancipation were not to be, calculated„ When the Hon.
Gentleman talked of not burdenitog'hiaCOntituents with two
hundred and forty .thousand pounds a year for the purpose of
providing for the Catholic Clergy, .he (Sir J. Newport) begged
to ask hint if he should think it a better plan to pay three mils
lions a year for soldiers--(Hear !)?--It was utterly impossible
to believe, that so great a portion of the community could
remain in a state of serious discontent, aggravated by various
considerations, without givirig occasion for large and continu-
ed expence. It was highly momentous. that the question.
should undergo a speedy, and, as he trusted, a favourable de-
ci4ion.. The present was, perhaps, the most fortunate. period
for such adecision that could Possibly occur. Parliament had
a mass of evidence before them to stow the evils of the present
system. They had before them the opiniOns of the Protestants
of 'lreland, as well as of the leaders of the Catholics. Let
them seize the golden opportunity. Let them not allow it to.
pass by. Former favourable opportunities had been permitted .
to slip ; let not the present be added to the number. There
was at present a concurrence of fortunate events, the con-
tinuance of which could not possibly be anticipated ; and un-
less advantage was taken of them 'to adopt means of pernia.
nently tranquillising Iceland, the most incalculable evils must
be expected. With respect to the contemplated change in the
elective franchise, he was bold to say, that whenever that sub-
ject came regularly under discussion, he should be able to
prove, to the satisfaction of the most incredulous, that the
elective franchise in the hands of many of those who now hold
it in Ireland, so far from being a boon, wa.s pregnant with the
consequences.most injurious consequences. They were not free agents. They
might be called freeholders or free electors ; but the term
" free" was misapplied. They were driven, or dragged to the
hustings to do, not what they wished themselves, but what
their superiors wished.

Mr. 1.•;. WORTLEY expressed his regret at. what had fallen
from the !lon. ilember for Durham. He was in hopes that
the proposition of his, lion. Friend, the Member for Stafford—
shire, would have met with unanimous support. He entreat-
ed his Hun. Friend, however, not to be deterred by any threat-
ened opposition ; for he believed in. his conscience that the
House would pass the Emancipation Bill, together with his
Friend's proposition ,• and he trusted that a great ma-
jority would be found on that side of the question.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR explained.
Sir R. WILSON observed, that when he voted for Catholic
Emancipation it was with a view of increasing, not ofdecreas-
ing the rights and privileges of the Catholics.of Ireland. If
any abuses existed in the Representation of Ireland, let a Com-
mittee be appointed, to investigate them. To that extent he
was quite ready to go. He was ready to correct all abuses—
to make fallacious voters, if such there were, substantial. But
Rather he could not go. He must continue to maintain the
Act of the 33d of. Geo. 111., by which the Catholics were per-
mitted to enjoy the elective franchise. He would oppose all
measures which contemplated any alteratiOn, where the votes
were bona fide registered.
sogalloi
ewry. a. tore
Wre of
understood verly.oirnddJis.tißneitilSySatl
in spoke
doeicreStoov'd the
Noble Noble Lord, however, to say, that he considered the raising of
thine
the qualification, and the provision for the Catholic Clergy, as
So infinitely small a price for the great benefit of Catholic eman.
cipation, that he would not delay the measure a single moment
by declining to pay it.
sir F. BURDErf felt it incumbent upon him to say, that
he did not altogether c..ncur in the sentiments that he had.
just heard ; hut, notwithstanding what had been urged against
the proposed measures, with respect to the modification of the
voting in Ireland, he was still of opinion that the projected al-
teration relative to the Irish forty shilling freeholders would be
beneficial. W ith reference to the measure for providing stipends
for the Catholic Clergy, he should be disposed to. give an
equally decided support to that proposition. The subject of
exnence had been dwelt upon by Honourable Gentlemen; bnt
nothing that had been said with relation to expence walscalen-
lated to turn the balance in his mind one. way or the other.
This was not an abstract question, but one connected:with
present interests and sentiments, and lie should like to It4now
upon what terms the Government support;to Catholic Emanci-
pation could he obtained. He was ready to make reat sacri-
fices to obtain the Emancipation of the Catholics. !'here were
certain misconceptions which had been put forth in relation to
Mr. O'Connell, which ought in justice to that Gentleman to
be removed. It had been stated that the Committee had not
delegated to Mr. O'Connell the power to draw up the Bill.
The fact was, that Mr. O'Connell was. induced to draw up a
rough sketch of the Bill, which had given satisfaction to a body
of Gentlemen, not of the Committee, but who had assembled
in order to ascertain the sentiments of the Irish people upon
the subject. Mr. O'Connell had not, therefore, drawn up the
Bill for the Committee, as had been stated to the public.
Mr. PEEL stated, that it was not his wish to provoke any
discusSion upon the question, but he wished the course he in-
tended to tale.to be perfectly clear, and well understood. Ile
had no liesilation to state, that he could not accept of .the pre-
sent measure as a compromise ; and the proposed plans of dis-
franchising the 40s. voters, and of making a state provision for
the clergy, would not. induce him to relax his opposition to the
pretensions of the Catholics. But it was possible that his opi-
nions upon the Catholic Claims might be oyer.ruled, and then
the question would be, what course he should pursue in endea-
vouring to modify future proceedings. Upon this point he
must declare that his mind was not madeuip, and the question
involved many collateral considerations. In the present state
of the question, he should declare that he could not accept of
• the present measure as a compromise for withdrawing his op.
position to the Catholic Claims.
Mr. -TIERNEY was anxious to know whether the adoption

PRICE SEVENPENCP.:

of this measure would be received as a compromise, by these
who were the opponents of Catholic Emancipation ? If it were
to be so received, he wail ready to declare that he would give it •
his support.
Mr. BROWNLOW stated, that he had held an extensive
correspondence upon the subject with several gentlemen in Ire-
land, whose opinions in relation to this measure were extremely '
valuable. These gentlemen. had stated that, irt their opinion,
the present plan of makirg provision for the Catholic Clergy, -
would tend to reconcile the Protestants of Ireland to the eman-
cipation of the Catholics. For his part, whether the question
was carried or not, it did appear to him to be nothing more than
a beneficial- measure, to establish a Legislative provision 'for
the Catholic Priesthood, many of whom were now in a state lit-
tle better than that of begging their bread. With respect to what',
-was called an Elective Franchise, the term, in Ilia opinion, weS
most improperly applied. The forty shilling voters in Ireland;
in respect to elections, were in a state of absolute slavery, and
the whole system of their voting at elections *as objectionable
in the extreme.

Mr. C. GRANT conceived that the most important point
relation to the Catholic claims now before the House was, the,.
situation of the Catholic Priests, and of the forty shilling vo.ters.
The situation of these two classes principally contributed to the
unfortunate situation of the Irish landlord.. The footing upon
which the Irish voters had been placed in-1793 had been most
destructive of the real freedom of Ireland.

Mr. DAWSON stated that he had been induced to alter
many of his opinions by what shad passed in the CoMmittee.
Gentlemen, in discussing the foss and gains of the Catholics by
the proposed measure, had overlooked what would be the effect
of the present plan upon the Protestants. The Protestaati
would not be so well satisfied as many Gentlemen supposed ai
being deprived of their elective franchise, and the present mea-
sure would be far front giving satisfaction in the northern parts
of Ireland.

Mr. W. COURTENAY regretted that such a petition should
have been presented to the House. Many of his constituents
Ivere friendly to the granting of the Catholic Claims;, but the
question was, whether the adoption of the two measures wou!d
tend to cure the fear of those who apprehended evils from the
concessions to the Catholics. He much doubted whether the
proposed alterations with respect to the Irish freeholders would.
have the anticipated effect.
Mr. INTTLETON, in explanation, begged to say, that he
had not the slightest intention of meddling- with the bona fide
forty shilling freeholders of Ireland. The bill was intended to
apply only to the fictitious freeholders erected for mere politica!
purposes. .
The petition was then brought up and laid upon the table.
HOUSE AND WINDOW TAX.-
_ _ _

Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented a petition from some
inhabitants of ,Yorkshire, praying for a repeal of the House and
Window Tax.

CORN LA WS.

Mr. S. WORTLEf presented a petition from the same
persons praying for a revision of the Corn Laws. The Ilan.
Gentleman observed that the petitioners had his most cordial
support upon the views they took of that question. It was his
fixed opinion that corn should be allowed to-be imported .at a
fixed price, antl he thought the reasons fOr adopting that c.n.n
had become ten times stronger since the Right Bon. the Prem.:
dent of the Board of Trade had admitted such a liberal policy
upon all questions of commerce. Indeed he thought the first
step after removing the prohibitory duties should have been a
regulation of the kind he proposed.—The petition Was laid on
table.

The petition was then brought up, and ordered to be printed:
STANDING ORDERS.
On the v.,ntion of Mr. Secretary PEE3I., the further consi-
deration of the Report on the Standing Orders was postponed
till to-morrow (this day.)
PIRATES.
_

It was ordered, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR 'of the
EXCHEQUER, that it be an instruction to the Committee or
Supply (on the Miscellaneous Estimates) to provide head:
money for those engaged in the destruction and capture of
pirates.

COMBINATION LA WS.
Mr. HUSKISSON gave notice that he should to-morrow
move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into
the effect of the repeal of the Combination Laws.

• • APOTHECARIES BILL
On the motion of Sir J. NEWPORT, the Apothecaries.:`
Bill went through a Committee, in order to fill up the blanks,
with the understanding that the merits of the question, should be discussed upon the consideration of the Report.
• The House having resumed, the Report was received arid •.
ordered to be taken into Consideration on Friday the 22d Of '•'
April.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. HUSKISSON, in the absence of his Right Hon. friend
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, gave entice that
would, on Thursday next, move that the House do adjourn to- '
Thursday, the 14th of April.

FELONIIYS PARDON BILL. • •
On-the motion of Mr. Secretary PEEL, the second reading
of the Felonies Pardon Bill WaS postponed to to-morrOw.
MISCELLANEOUS LSTIMATES (IN commiTTEn.
OF SUPPLY); • -
On the motion of Mr. HERRIES, the House resolved itself
into a Committee of Supply.
The first grant moved was a sum • not exceeding- 40,000/. for
the erection and repair of buildings and works in 1825.
Mr. HUME begged to ask a few questions relative to the._
repair of the King's Bench and Fleet Prisons.' It was providt4
by a specific Act of Parliament, that the repairi of those. prk-•
sons were to be defrayed from certain fees set apart for thitt
purpose; but for a considerable time the fees had been seized
upon, and the repairs were done at the public expense.- Be
wished to know whether these fees were likely. to be restored to
the uses to which they had originally been applied ?
HERRIES said, that considerable doubts had ariservaS
to the weaning and construction of the Act to which the flow
Member alluded : it was the Act of Geo. 11., 1724, ~ntl'it'prb-,
vided, thaLtrorn the fees of the Marshal—an Office thea,in the
nomination -Or the Crown—the repairs of the King's Bench
Prison (then about to .be built) should..be defrayed. The pri-
son then built was destroyed in 1780;• and the difficulty was,
whether the provisions of the Bill were meant to' extend' to the
repairs of the prison subsequently etected. He agreed with the.
Member that it was a fit subjectiof inquiry, and certainly-
it should not he lust sight of.
Mr. II UM II; said, he understood that the the Office off-Mar.
steal of the King's Bench was worth several thousand pounds
a-year. . ,

. .
Sir M.• W. RIDLEY made some observations with respect
to our public buildings, which were not distinctly audible in the:
• gallery.
(We understood the Hon. Member to find fault with the new'
Treasury, m Whitehall, the top of which he compared to the
stand-house on Doncaster Race-course. He also complained
that we had not sufficient public residences erected ibr our
great Officers of State.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he was
most anxious to afford his Hon Friend every intimination in his •
power. The buildings going on at Whitehall were intended to
be continued in a direct and uniform line and shape. An ar-
chitect certainly laboured under a difficulty to which no other
artist was liable; his works were, from their very commence-
ment, open to criticism ; and• it was impossible for him to ex-
plain to the public. the bearing of the detached parts with re- '
ference to the whole—(Hear, hear !) ; and therefore such criti-•
cism was, to say the least of it, somewhat unfair to the archi-
tect. It was certainly true that since the erection of thg build-
ing in question, an idea had occurred to his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary of State for the Home Department, of removing
those old unsightly buildings contiguous to it, which formed
the Home Department, and therefore a new plan was devised;
in order to see how far the whole building for holding the•great"
public offices could be united under one facade, but the pre-'',
rise plan to be adopted was not yet fixed upon. The object'
was so to harmonise all the points as to make a regular, hand-
some, and at the same time convenient building. As to the
erection of residences for the great Officers of State, he thought
that it could not have been done on that site, as the right
flank of Downing-street was of a limited extent, and was in-
tersected by'passages to the Council Board, etc.,,so that they.
could not encroach much upon it. He waS anxious to remove'
the Offices of the Exchequer, if possible, from the.unpleasant
and inconvenient. situation they now occupied, in the year of
Westminster-half.' :With respect to building new residences
for the great Offi.4tis of State, he thought that, as a plinci-
ple, it ought to beicted upon with great caution, as houses
might be provided which would lead to an increase of ex pence
in their style of living, and consequently to an increase of their •
sAlaries. At present the only officers so provided were the First
Loid of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
the First Lord of the Admiralty ; of these he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) occupied the house of the First Lord of the

Treasury, who, feeling that he occupied a comfortable man- more in buildings, especially in prtaiding houses for Ministers.
tome of his own, did not wish to leave it. His Friend, the Se- He never found them unwilling ,to retain their places because
eretary of the Treasury, occupied the house appointed for the they had not houses provided for them at the public expence—
Chancellor of the Exchequer; the First Lord of the Admi- (A laugh)—and though they had not yet enjoyed that clime-
rally found it necessary to the public business to occupy the nience, the affairs of the public had gone on just as well as if
house appointed for him. He thought that much caution ought they had been more magnificently lodged. He did not wish
to be exercised in erecting new residences ; but with respect to that any public building should be erected for any public offi-
Abe public buildings, he felt that (whatever might be said by cers, and if they did not like to continue in office because they
economists) they were necessary to the true dignity of the had to come from their private residences to their places of
Lotion. business, why let them resign.
Mr. LOCKHART objected to any sort of additional expence 31r. T. WILSON said there were many cases in which it
tong incurred for buildings, until the public purse should be in was necessary to spend a shilling to save a pound. It was so
such a good state as to warrant the House in using its contents in the present instance. No man could so well 'attend to
for such a purpose as that now proposed. He could not see his business who was not on the spot where it was carried
why we should now incur a large expence in building Palaces on ; and he therefore thought that money expended in such
foe the Ministers, which might have no other effecrtban that ' a way would be well laid out,- even with a view to public
of rendering them more dignified and less accessible. economy.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that. Mr. PELHA3I slid a few words, after which the Resolution
the apprehension expressed by the Honourable Member for passed without a division.
Oxford, respecting Palaces being built for Ministers, to render On the Resolution that a sum of 10,000/. should be granted
them less accessible, was without any foundation. The house to defray the charges of the College of Edinburgh, •
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) now occupied, was his Mr. HUME asked whether the gross sum voted three years
own e and the furniture in it belonged to him, and had not ago was not sufficient to defray the expellees of this College.
been furnished at the public expence. He was for himself Mr. BERRIES, as we understood, said, this item was part
perfectly satisfied with it, though he must say, that if he of the sum originally granted, which would cover all expences.
shoald be put into another erected at the public cost. he should The Resolution was then passed.—A sum of 15,900/. was
Let be less accessible than at present ; and as to what was his then granted for the expences of Portpatrick Harbour.
_Another
neediness at this time to receive any Gentleman who might call of 19,130/. for the Harbour of Donaghadee. And 45,0001. for
ern him for the purposes of business, he could safely appeal to Kingston Harbour.
most of the Members now present. The Hon. Member from NATIONAL PICTURE GALLERY.
Oxford very seldom bad occasion to honour him with a visit of A Resolution was then proposed for granting the sum of
this public nature; but though that Hon. Member did not, he 40,000/. to defray the expenses of the works of . the British
coda assure the House, that most of the other Members had Museum.
nose so in the course of this Session. Mr. R. COLBURN, said, that he was desirous of preserv-
Mr. LYTTLETON did not think it necessary to provide all ing any advantage which the British Museum might at present
the Ministers with - houses built at the public expence, for the possess, but he had always thought, that it might have been
purposes of their office; but there were some among them, for erected in a more central situation, and in a spot where it could
owitoM such an expence was absolutely necessary. lie would obtain means of exhibiting to advantage the works of art in
hastance the Right Hon. Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, painting, which had lately been procured for the public, in
whom lie regretted not to see in his place to night—no one could this country. For that purpose, it seemed to him, that a situa-
doubt that it wwi absolutely necessary, both on account of the tion in Russell-square would have been very advantageous._
..stigThity of the office which that Right Hon. Gentleman held, He threw this out merely as an opinion, on a subject deserving
and on account of the convenience of the Foreign Ministers, of some consideration. -
with ,whom he was constantly in the habit of transacting bust- Sir C. LONG said, that the collection of Marshal Soult sera
news, to provide him a house at the public expence, where he tainly contained some very fine pictures. Of the .collection of
could be more conveniently visited than at present. With re- Cardinal Fesch he did not think so nighly. If the Trustees of
sweet to the other Ministers, whom he believed to be underpaid, the British Museum bought whole collections, they would not
perhaps it would be better that they should have an increase of want many of the inferior works included in it, and were those
salary than that houses should be provided for them—(Hear !) to be sold at a great loss, or to be preserved ?—Sir T. Lawrence
lle was sure the country had great reason to value the services had been principally concerned in the choice of the Angerstein
of the present Ministers, and would not grumble at a fair in. collection, and among them all, there was scarcely. a single se-
crease in the amount of their salaries. cond-rate picture.—He (Sir C. Long) had no objection that the
Mr. W. SMITH said a few words on the question. national gallery should be at the West-end of the town, but the
Mr. J. n 1 ARTIN wished to know out of what funds the difficulty was this :—Certain individuals had left collections of
r: pairs of the present Custom-house were to be defrayed, what pictures to the Trustees of the British Museum, and were they
was the estimated amount of those repairs, and what had been to be separated from the establishment in Bloomsbury ? If the
done on the subject ? House voted a sum for the erection of a gallery, worthy of the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that character of the nation, he should most gladly give that vote his
is was intended they should come out of the funds of that de- support.
ptertment of -the revenue. It was impossible for him to say Mr. PEEL observed, that the superintendence of the Na.
what would be the amount of the expences of repairing that tional Gallery, wherever it might be situated, ought to be left
place. It was true that it had been built at a great expence to to the Trustees of the British Museum, for certainly there was
the public, under the direction of an architect, who was not no public body so fit to undertake the duty ; for this suffi-
at the time under the same controul, as that under which the cient reason, Sir George Beaumont had made the donation of
other architects employed in -public works at present were—he his collection to them. At the same time he must say, that
meant under the controul of the Board of Works. He trusted, if the National Gallery were banished to the neighbourhood of
however, that no• architects would be again employed in the St. Giles's and Russell-square it would much lessen the value
same manner, or remain raider -so little controul as the ar. of the collection : it ought to be established, to use an expres-
chitect of. the Custom-house • had been. In fact, he :was the sion of Dr. Johnson, where followed" the great tide of human
architect to the Customs, and, in consequence of holding-that existence," and he knew of no more fit situation than the
situation the task of erecting the Custoca-house, had been neighbourhood of Pall-mall. The British Museum was al-
entrusted to him. He had employed a builder under a-, ready a most extensive congregation—books, coins, minerals,
contract. In that contract the specifications were all drawn statues, and stuffed animals—and it was quite enough for
out,- and -when the building swas finished, the architect cud- any body to spend one day in going over them, without the
fled that the work had been done according to the specifica- addition of a picture gallery ; the picture gallery ought to be at
lions. It turned out, however, that part of the building known some distance, and to that the stranger might well devote ano-
as the Long Room, had given way, and he feared it was too ther day. Perhaps the same liberality on the part of the public,
true that a scandalous fraud had been committed upon the which induced it to grant its money for the purchase of pictures,
public. It was to have been built upon piles, and the Long would lead it to afford a further sum for the erection of a gal- ,
Room especially was to have stood, according to the specitica. lery to contain them.
Von, on an arch, the pillars of which were to have been sup- Mr. HOB HOUSE agreed, that it would-be almost useless to
ported by nine regular piles of considerable strength. New in- banish pictures to the British Museum ; if they were sent there
stead of this having been done, it stood on only four pile's and they would he passed over like the paintings in the Vatican. He
a half which were not placed regularly; and instead of these -had visited it several times before he was aware that, after a
piles being round pieces of strong timber, cut like the masts of wearying tour round the other parts of the building, there still
ships, they turned out to be merely trees, with the 'ranches remained an apartment, appropriated to the Raphaels and
chopped off. That was undoubtedly a fraud, and every pains had Michael Angelos. It was highly injudicious to banish works of
been taken to obtain repayment from the builder for the loss that art to a street which was an hour anti a half's walk from the west
had been suffered. He was generally believed to be a person of end of the town. He hoped that Gentlemen would take care that
large property, and means had been adopted to render that pro- they were not all collected under one roof, to be liable to one
perty available to alsw4 the expence, soould he ultimately be casualty. He agreed in what had been remarked, respecting
found to be liable. He did not know that the parties concerned the collection of Marshal Soult plundered from S'pain ; he had
in this building had done any thing to bring themselveswithin obtained them for nothing, and he ought to have nothing for
tne operation of the law ; but that point was at present under them.—(Hear, hear !)—ln the whole of the collection of Car-
t'ae consmeration or the 5 officers of the Crown, and if it dinal Fesch, there was not a picture worth buying, excepting
should be found that they had rendered themselves liable to the one or two by Flemish masters. The trustees of the Museum,
operation of the combination law, they would be proceeded or those employed in selecting paintings for a national gallery,
against for a conspiracy. Whether there could be sufficient ought not to buy whole collections, but choice master-pieces-
proofs of a combination between these parties, he did not know and they ought to be accessible in that part of the town which
—hut undoubtedly he could say this, that means had been taken was best capable of estimating their value.
to examine fully into the matter, in order to afford the fullest Mr. R. COLBURN explained.
satisfaction to the public. Mr. HUME called the attention of the Committee to the large
Sir. Alderman WOOD knew one of the individuals who had vote of last year for the British Museum, which was intended
bell alluded to, and with respect to whom he believed such an for the erection of a picture-gallery. He thought that the pub-
animation as that made to-night would be proved to be Com. lie Ought not to be put to any needless expence. He was of
pletely unfounded. However, whether it should ultimately opinion that Charing-cross was the fittest spot for erecting a '
_prove unfounded or not, made no difference as to the manner national picture gallery.
ne which it had now been brought forward. He did contend, Mr. CROKER said, that Sir George Beaumont had made
that if any charge was to be made, it should be specifically his bequest after the question had been mooted as to the situa-
stated, and should not be suffered to rest on general imputation tion of the gallery. He bad intrusted his pictures to the Trus-
anwne. Many reports had been, and many more would now be, tees of the British Museum, as a corporate, body acting on
circulated, to the prejudice of that geooleman's character and behalf of the public, and for the public benefit. The Dul-
reputation. This was wrong. If he was to be tried, he ought wich collection was at least as fine as that of Sir George
a least to have a fair trial, and not to be stripped of his means Beaumont; it was quite as distant as Russell-square, though
of defence. or to have those means weakened. He had always he did not profess to know exactly where Russell-square was.—
nitherto conducted himself with the greatest propriety, and he (Hear and laughter).—Sir F. Bourgeois had given his pictures
ought not now to be attacked in this manner upon mere suppo. to Dulwich College, because he knew not where else to deposit
siion. them. The first use of the arts was perhaps the enjoyment of
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the the few ; but the great object ought to be the improvement
honourable Member that he should not have stated what he and civilization of the many ; it was the business then of Le-
tad done, had not the question been put to him. He did not gislators and Patrons of art, to afford, not merely enjoyment,
c'targe either of the parties with having acted improperly, he but a useful lesson : to place that lesson where, as had been
had merely said, that if it should appear they had acted collu- said, the great tide of human existence flowed, and not in Itus-
o rely, they would te proceeded against. He had not the sell-square, where the collection would only be visited by a few
atorlitest wish to institute proceedings against them, but if pro- cognoscenti virtuosi and picture dealers.
credings became actually necessary, they certainly would be in- Sir C. LONG observed, that many persons were of opinion
odtuted. that the national statues and pictures ought to be placed in the
Mr. Alderman WOOD did not accuse the Right Honourable same gallery. The returns upon the table shewed that in the
Gentleman of any wilful intention to injure the character of any last year upwards of 100,000 persons had visited the British
one. All he meant to say was, that these premature statements Museum.
no matter with what intention they were delivered—were calcu. Mr. CROKER added that he had been credibly informed
ltrld to produce that effect. that many thousands had been attracted thither by the two white
Mr. MABERLY said, that if Ministers were-underpaid, bears, imported by Captain Parry.—(Bear! and laughter.)
foeir salaries ought not to be made up by building them magni- Mr. MA BERLE Y saw no reason why the Trustees of the
Loent houses, for that would only be attended with an increase Museum should not he transferred with -all their property to a
of expence in their Style, of living. The only true way to re. more convenient situation. Large sums had been already very
move the evil, if it existed await, was to increase their salaries unsatisfactorily expended upon the building in Bloomsbury.
so as to afford them a proper remuneration for their important Mr. PEEL repeated
this decided opinion, that the site of a
labours. national gallery ought e nearer the resort of the public than
air. BERNAL said, that with respect to one of the in- Russel-square. It might be established in the vicinity of Wain
sisaiduals who had been alluded to, he understood that that Mall, leaving it still under the administration of the Trustees
parson, instead of being liable to refund any money, of the British Museum.
actually had an action against the Treasury for a sum Mr. BERNAL asked why the King', Mews at Charing-
„rabove 20,0001. He spoke of the builder who had been cross might not be applied to such a purpose ? Common report
employed upon the Custom-house ; he had not had much gave out that Sir It. Birnie, as Chief Police Magistrate, was to
business to transact with that Gentleman himself, but have a house on that spot, and that another was to he built for
be knew him to be spoken et* by many Gentlemen who the Rector of St. Martin's. It was also said, that the Royal
had employed bins in very high terms ; and lie was Academicians were to be turned out of their apartments in
at this moment engaged in many works of considerable im- Somerset-house.
portance ; and, among the rest, the rebuilding of that school The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was very glad
in St. Paul's Church-yard. It had been stated that the piles to see so general a feeling prevalent in the House.—(Hear,
were defective, and the foundation bad. If that were true, the hear !)—lie did not believe that Honourable Gentlemen who
builder was not solely responsible, for there must have been a cheered him knew exactly what he was about to say ; he was
person possessing a superintending power, to whom the fault glad to see so general a feeling prevalent that the Trustees
was in a still greater measure to be attributed. He (Mr. B.) of the British Museum were the fittest body to be
therefore did hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite entrusted with this national charge ; this circumstance
would suspend his invectives for a time, at least until the truth - shewed the degree of confidence justly placed in them.
of Ids imputations could be fairly ascertained. and no doubt any pictures confided to their care would be
Mr. BARING thought that the private character of indi- preserved in the most admirable manner. He knew enough of
eiduals ought not to be attacked in this House, where all that the locality of the Mews to be able to say that, if it were in.
• as said was privileged, unless on very strong grounds. His tended that there should be a large open space in front
motive in rising was to say a word or two on the other subject of the present stables, that there would be no room for a
which was before the House. He was in favour of the proposi. national gallery. Before that plan were abandoned, the sub-
tion for the building of a house for tile Right Hon. Secretary of ject ought to undergo much consideration, as it would be a
State for, Foreign Affairs, not as, another mode of raising his very magnificent undertaking. It 'might not be difficult to
salary—(hear, hear ! from the Ministerial benches). but for the accomplish both objects, if that monster of taste, the. Golden
more convenient dispatch of the public nosiness with which he Cross, and other private buildings, belonged to .the Crown.—
was entrusted. With regard to the Royal Academy, no man could deny that
Sir M. W. RIDLEY was of the same opinion. If thnlion. the members were at present very badly accommodated—
Member for Oxford had had to visit the-Right Hon. Secretary nothing could be worse; the approach was extremely incono
aa after. as lie had done, that Hon. Member would have agreed venient, as no two carriages could pass, and the room eli-
te the proposition without hesitation, on account of- the great propriated to sculpture, from its weight, being necessarily
convenience it would afford. As. to the questions respecting on the ground floor, was so miserable and paltry a hole
earne of the public buildings, he had no wish to satirise the or- that he was surprised that artists would consent to exhibit their
cilitects of any of them, but he must say, that the fruit of that works there. (Hear I)—The other apartments were exceedingly
Winding now erecting in Parliament-street, seemed only fit to bad, and the large room was such an enormous height, that a
give a good view of a passing procession to persons stationed on gouty gentleman or a corpulent lady had no chance of seeing
thwtop.—(A laugh.) .. the pictures in it. When the exhibition should be removed to a
Mr. HUME thought the system of givinghouses to public more advantageous spot, the view of the best paintings would
officers had been attended with great abuse. ,;He knew of one not be confined to those who ' had sound legs. It was not in-
instance in which a public officer receiving 1201. per annum, oc- tended to convert the space now assigned to the Royal Acade-
copied a house of the value of 2,0001. 0r2,5001. per annum. He micians into Government Offices, but to appropriate them to
thought the grants of the preceding year for buildings ought to the Royal Society, which-much wanted such accommodation.
leave been found quite sufficient. A sum of 500,0001- had then Mr: HOB HOUSE hoped, from what had been just said,
leeen granted for the building of churches; another, of 800,000/. that it was not intended to fit np the King's stables at Charing-
for.the repairs of Windsor Castle ; and a third, of 200,000/. cross, as a barrack. Last year he had made an ineffectual
the the British Museum. Were not these sums enough effort to,-prevent it. The facade of the building behind the
for the required purposes ? He protested against expending walls was extremely fine. 'Elie .inhabitants of the neighbour-