The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 17, 1849

do nothing, but leave things of themselves to come to
rights.
Mr. SPOONER contended it was of no use telling the
people what had been done, or g )ing back to other pe-
riods, I.ke his Rigls.; Hon. Friend the Member for Seam-
ford, in order to what reductions were made. Since
they had changed their commercial policy he thought the
privileged classes ought not to be exempt any longer, brit
suffer the same reductions with the other portions of the
community.

Mr. AG;LIONBY believed the motion calculated very
much to mislead Hon. Members, and as to what the
Hon. Member for Birmingham said almit the eyes of the
country being fixed on that motion, he denied it alto-
gether. He believed the country did not care one far-
thing about it.—(Oa, oh.) The Hon. Member said that
wages were reduced everywhere, and therefore officers of
the Crown ought to be reduced also, but he denied that.
He denied that any reduction had taken place in wages.
He knew that in his own county (Cumberland) no reduc-
tion had taken place even in the agricultural classcs, for
they give the same wages there they gave-for years past.
He believed -tlin rcoti,n was not a practical one; that it
was too general in its nature, aril he should therefore
vote against it.
Mr. GOULBZIRN observsd that no class of men de-
servel mere from Parliament than Honourable Gentle-
men who tilled the inferior offices in the state, and he
should therefore protest against that class being sdected
for reduction in their salaries. Li 1821, an address to
the Crown was carried in that House with re'erence to
the nunb of public otli,..:ers, and the increase of sala-
ries since 1`97; minute inquiries were made—a great
number of persons were superannuated—and yet his
lion. Friend cams down in 1849 to reduce them still
further.

Mr. COBDEN said that on a former occasion, when
the lion. Gentleman brought forward a motion to reduce
the salaries of one department, be voted with him, on the
understanding that the humbler offices should not be re-
duced, but now the Hon. Gentleman had gone much fur-
ther, even to the humble two-penny postmen. Now, he
could not be a party to reduce the wages or pay
of any
man having twelve shillings a week. He would rather
augment their pay, and the wages of the agricultural la-
bourer also, than be a party to reducing it. It he had
confined his motion to the higher departments he
would have had greater success; but he was new in the
field as a financial reformer, and probably ho would
have greater success another time by wording his motion
better.—(A laugh.) But the salaries of the highest
offices were uo.rrniti in this country.—(gear, hear.)
Look at the American functionaries. .Had they better
statesmen than Webster and Clay in this country? How
enormous was the difference in the remuneration they
received for their public services. Had we a better di-
plomatist, apart from his literary character, than Ban-
croft; and yet he received only 2,0001. per annum, when
our ambas.ador at Paris received 10,0001. a year, and
in Austria 9,0001. per annum. These were the class of
salaries that should be looked at. There was also ano-
ther class he alluded to, the supernumeraries. There
might well be a reduction in their number. In voting
for this motion he wished to guard himself against
affirming any principle other than this, that every re-
duction should be effected with a view to the efficient
discharge of public duty. He thought the best way of
eff'-eting this was not by the sweeping motion before the
House, but by subjecting each department to a specific
inquiry. To conduct such an investigation they could
not have a better tribunal than an independent Com-
mittee of that House.

Mr. PACKE said that by the policy advocated by the
Hon. Member for the West Riding and his supporters,
the wages of the agricultural labourer had been reduced
bel the minimum beyond which he had stated he
should be sorry to see wages ;enticed. He should give
his curoial support to the motion.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in explanation, wished to say,
lest he had been misuuderstood, that all he meant to
convey was—that when objections had been made to
any particular department of the public service he had
offered no objection to any inquiry ; as, for instance,
when objections were made to the expenses incurred in
the Home Department an inquiry had taken place, and
a reduction of 3,0001. per annum had been effected.
Sir W. CLAY wished to guard himself also from
being understood as assenting to the proposition that the
salaries of the humbler Government servants should be
reduced. He should support the motion upon the ground
that some diminution should take place in the large sala-
ries of the officers in the higher departments.
Mr. BRIGHT said he did not at prove of the indiscri-
minate reduction of salaries. He thought that wages
from 12s. to 30s. a week should not be reduced. As
to wages generally, he was happy to say that there was
a tendency to raise them, which would be materially
felt next year, as the Hon. Gentleman would find. As
for the question before the House, he should vote for it,
and then for the proposed amendment of his Hon. Friend
the Member for the West Riding.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said that instead of high wages
and low prices, as the Hon. Member for the West Rid-
ing and his coadjutors had promised years ago, and had
again promised to-night, they had now the greatest diffi-
culty in getting any wages at all.—("Hear," from the Op-
position.) He thought the public servants of this coun-
try were overpaid, and the time was come for a sweeping
reform.

Mr. HENLEY shortly explained that his motion was
a true motion, and it related to salaries only, and had
nothing to do with wages.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Henley's motion ... ... 102
Against it 142
Majority for going into Committee --40
SUPPLY.

The House then went into Committee of Supply, Mr.
BERNAL in the Chair.

On the vote of 361,9001. for Ordnance stores,

Mr. HUME said he expected some explanation of this
vote. What did the Government propose to do with
regird to the report of the Committee which had been
sitting so 1 'net upon these estimates ?
Colonel ANSON said that h. thought that report,
able as it was, would be of little use without the evi-
denc-. The House would find that the recommendations
in the report were couched in very light terms, and
tended to the effsct that the Government would take
theta into consideration during the recess. He could state
that they would receive the most deliberate considera
tion, without which the Government could not pledge
themse lees to carry out these rs commendations. The
recommendations that related to the artillery and ord-
nance, ho thought, could not be acted upon, as they
were contrary to the opinions of the Duke of Welling-
ton, Lord Hardinge, and other experienced officers.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Committee recom
mended that the number of artificers and workmen
should be fixed at the rate usual in time of peace,
and that no addition should take place without th,
express sunctioa of the House. He could only say
that, as far as this was possible, consistent with the large
works which had to be entered upon, this ought to be
done, and he had no doubt that the recommendation
would be attended to. Then they recommended that in
the colonies in the West Indies and Canada the establish-
ments should be reduced, especially in the smaller colo-
nies of the %Vest Indies; the Government could not have
any reason for incurring unnecessary expenses in the co-
lonies—and he theretere had no hesttation in saying that
this recommendation might be attended to in certain
saes. The Committee, with reference to the largi,
amount of stores in hand, had recommended that they
should as nearly as possible be reduced to the amount
required in time of peace. He did not wonder at tne
amount at which these stores were valued, nearly seven
millions, should have caused the Committee to make
such a recotnniendation, but when the large portion 01
these stoles which had been superseded, rendered useless
by modern improvements, was deducted, and those only
taken into account which were fit for service, the quan-
tity would not appear so very large or disproportioned
to our actual wants. If any forced sale of these stores
were now made, it would be most imprudent,
and with regard to the total amount of
stores, it would be remembered that during
the Government of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel) and the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) addi-
tions had taken place to the artillery, and there was up
to the present year nothing in the aspect of affairs to
warrant them in making any material reductions.—
(Hear, hear.) At the same time he had no doubt that
the Government would give their best attention to the
subject with the view of effecting every practicable re-
duction. He might say the same of all other votes
which were placed before the House in the same simple
form which had been recommended by- experienced per-
sons connected with the Treasury in 1845. He saw no
reference in the summary with respect to the works at
the lonian Islands, Bermuda, and other places, referred
to on a previous occasion, by the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Southwark (Sir W. Atloleswortb). On re-
ferring to the body of the report, however, he found the
case referred to first was Bermuda; the sum proposed
for this year was 4,548/., certainly not a very large
one. The whole sum to be voted for these works, in
addition to that already expended, was 60,000/.,
though it was admitted it might be much more.
Lord Grey, in his evidence, was in favour of
these works being suspended. But there was a great
difference of opinion, as shown in the evidence of past
governors and officials connected with the colony. That
difference of opinion was, however, one reason why in-
quiry should take place, and he was empowered on the
part of the Government to say that such inquiry should
be made. The same should apply to the Mauritius, and
partly to the loniau Islands, on the:assurance that part
of the estimates, late though it was in the session, would
be withdrawn, and that orders should be sent out imme-
diately to stop as far as possible all new works. He hoped
that the explanation would be satisfactory to the Hon.
Baronet, and he thought it should be so, because, after
all, the recommendation of the Committee merely
amounted to a recommendation to the executive Go-
vernment to take the subject into consideration. He bad
no wish to detain the House by any remarks of his own,
but as the Hon. Member for Montrose had asked what
the Government meant to du in the matter of these re-
commendations, he felt bound to state, on their part, that
the Government were prepared to give their best con-
sideration to the subject, and to lay revised estimates be-
fore the House next year; and if these estimates did not
meet the views of the Hon. Member for Montrose, or the
Hon. Member for the %Vest Riding, they could then take
objections to them. Before_ he sat down, he would just
mention that the Government had already made a re-
duction of 320,000/. on the estimates of this year, and he
hoped the lion. Member would accept that as an earnest
of the desire to make every possible reduction.
Mr. HUME said the Gallant Colonel had made a long
statement, but had not answered the question, what was
the number of the artillery? He was glad he had papers
before him, because his figures would be right. He
found that the charge for the ordnance was 1,429,6001. in
1834-5, while in 1848.9 it had swelled up to 2,827,0001.,
or double the amount. The Committee of 1828 had re-
commended a reduction of the number of artillery, but
instead of that he found that the number had been es n•
stantly and gradually augmenting until from 8 369 they
amounted up to upeards of 14,000. He wanted sumo
explanation of this fact. They were told they had 80

batteries in this country. Why, bless his sotil, what did
they want with batteries in a country were the people
were all obedient to the law.—(Hear, hear.) They had
asked for explanation of this in the Committee, but none
had been given. Then there was another point, the
number of officers on the department had been aug-
mented without consulting the House, according to the
recommendation of the Committee of 1828. But in
doing this, they had appointed only senior and high-paid
officers, while the complaints of their own officers in the
colonies was that there was a deficiency of inferior offi-
cers, and that non-commissioned officers had to be ap-
pointed to do the duties. Under these circumstances,
he hoped that the explanation he asked for would be
given.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had first
csketl his Hon. and Gallant Friend what the Govern-
ment meant to do with respect: to the recommendations,
and now lie complained that he bad not told him how
many artillery there would be. His Hon. and Gallant
Friend was prepared to have told him that on Thursday
night, so that it appeared they might as well have pne
on with the estimates them —(Hear, hear.) He took
upon himself the responsibility- of adopting the sugges•
lion of the Mater-General of the Ordnance both as re-
gards the increase of the artillery, and the manner in
which it was carried out, and he was glad to find the
recomrnondations of the Committee so fully borne out by
the G .vorninent.

Mr. HUME, while he agreed that the artillery ought
to be an efficient force, contended that it should be pro-
vrtioned to the infantry and the requirements of the
Stato. Instead of addin, two alditional battalions, the
proper c ,urse to have adopted would have been to in-
crease the number of MPH in the existing corps if that
increase were demanded by the state of the country,
which he denied. lie believed it would be absolutely
necessary to check the expenditure which had grown
up during later years, and he entered his protest
against the utter recklessaess which was manifested in
maintaining what could not be otherwise regarded than
as war establishments.

Captain BOLDER() considered, looking at the effi-
cient state of the artillery service in other countries,
hat the time had arrived when they ought to increase
the artillery of this country. The French had one gun
for every 300 men, while we had but one gun for every
750 men.

Mr. HUME thought that if justice were done the
people no necessity would exist for keeping up the large
war establishment now maintained.

The vote was then agreed to.
The sum of 151,6501. to complete the amount neces.
sary for Commissariat and Barrack supplies.
Mr. HUME said chat since the year 1838 this sum had
been nearly doubled, and he had beard no argument ad-
vanced for such an incresse.

Colonel ANSON explained that the additional number
of men employed in the service, of course required an
increased sum for commissariat supplies.
After a few words from Colonel PEEL,
The vote was agreed to.
The sum of .15,8511. to defray the expense of the
Ordnance-office.

Mr. COBDEN protested against the further conside-
ration of the estimates at that late hour, after twelve
hours' sitting. The subject was too important to be
lightly discussed, and he suggested an adjournment of
the subject.
Lord J. RUSSELL could not consent to postpone-
ment, the more particularly as they could not resume the
consideration of these estimates before Friday night.
Mr. COBDEN pressed for postponement, adding that
the country would not be satisfied with the Legislature
voting away large sums of money at midnight without
serious consideration.

Mr. V. SMITH advocated a revision of the Ordnance
Board, which was by no means an efficient body, in ac-
cordance with the suggestions of the Committee of 1849.
Mr. HUME said, if anything could prove the impro-
priety of their proceeding with the estimates at the pre-
sent late hour, it was the speech of the Hon. Gentleman
who bad just addressed them. There was a feeling out
of doors that the Board should be altogether abolished;
and if there was not a disetbsion in the present session,
there would. be no change till next year, and he would
.herefore suggest that the Committee should be ad-
journed till Thursday.
Lord J. RUSSELL—With reference to the suggestion
of the Hon. Member to adjourn the Committee, he did
not see that the adjournment till that day would enable
.he House to come to a better conclusion on the esti-
mates.

Mr. MILES was in favour of the adjournment.
After a few words from Mr. FOX MAULE,
Sir W. MOLESW ORTH said it seemed quite im-
possible they could then go through the estimates. It
was his intention on the seventh vote to bring under
consideration the cases of Bermuda, the Mauritius, and
the lonian Islands, and as his doing so would occupy
some time, and as he would expect some explanations,
he did not see the possibility of their now proceeding.
After some discussion, in which Mr. HORSMAN, Lord
JOHN RUSSELL, and others took part,
Mr. HORSMAN moved that the Chairman should
report progress, when strangers were ordered to with-
draw. It appeared, however, that the motion was
not pressed to a division, and on being readmitted
we found—

Mr. COI3DEN addressing the house. Ho said the
Honourable Member for Montrose had left the House
in consequence of the conduct of Ministers persisting
in proceeding. Common sense, decency, and jus-
tice forbade them going on any further that night, and
ho should therefore move that the Chairman should re-
port progress.

Mi. BERNAL.—Does the Hun. Member mean to
divide the fit,use ?

Mr. COBDEN—.-Certainly.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... ... 14
Against it ... 107
Majority against the motion ... —93
Upon the vote being put,
Mr. KERSHA W moved that the Chairman report
progress._ _

Lord J. RUSSELL—If the Hon. Gentleman will
allow this vote to pass, I shall not proceed further to-
night.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. KERSHAW, however, having intimated his in-
tention to persiit in dividing,
Lord J. RUSSELL said, if Hon. Gentlemen meant to
take such a course, however small their minority—
(Hear, bear)—he thought it would be best to postpone
the vote. He would, therefore, put them for Wednes-
day, in the hope that Hon. Gentlemen with Bills for
that day (of which there were not many) would con-
sent to allow the Supply to come on, and he would
endeavour to make an arrangement on those Bills on
Another day.
The House then resumed, and the report was received.
On the order of the day, Encumbered Estates Bill
(consideration of Lords' amendments),
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped Government would
not press the Bill through with any haste. It was quite
evident the session would last longer than had been ex-
pected after the postponement of the supply.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, he proposed to consider the
Bill to-morroir at tar, Ire o'clock, as the amendments had
been generally seen by Members, and had not been se-
riously objected to.
Colonel DUNNE moved that the House should not
sit at twelve o'clock to-morrow, and said he would di
vide the House on it.

Lord J. RUSSELL informed the lion. Member he
could not do so, as other orders of the day were already
fixed for the meeting of the llouse.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
would not object to take the Bill on Thursday, at twelve
o'clock, if the [lon. Member wished.—Agreed to.
ATHLONE TO GALWAY RAILWAY BILL.
On the order of the day for the House going into
Committee on this Bill,
Mr. F. FRENCH requested the Government to post-
pone the Committee until there was a fuller attendance
of Irish Members.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
at such a period of the session these postponements were
most injurious and could serve no object, particularly in
case of a Bill like the present, which had the consent of
both sides of the House.

Major BLACKBALL also urged a postponement, as
many Irish Members who wished to extend the measure
had gone away under the impression it would not be
brought forward that night.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
it would be impossible to extend that Bill at least.—
(Hear.) No Bill for the benefit of Ireland could be
carried if this course of postponing measures was to be
pursued night after night.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'FLAHERTY begged the Hun. Member (Mr.
French) not to oppose the wish of his own county, to let
the measure pass.
Mr. F. FRENCH denied that the county he repre-
sented or the baronies to be affected by the Bill were
favourable to it.

The House then went into Committee, and several
clauses were agreed to, when

Mr. F. FRENCh rose to move a proviso to the
effect that the money advanced by the barony of Gal-
way should be repaid before any division of profits took
place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op-
posed the proviso, on the ground that it was con-
trary to the arrangement on which the Bill had been
introduced.

After some conversation, in the course of which Sir
J. Burke, Sir P. Nugent, and several other Honourable
Gentlemen recommended the Hon. Member for Ros-
common to withdraw his proviso, and expressed their
belief that the arrangement proposed by the Bill would
be advantageous to Galway and the adjoining districts,
The proviso was negatived without a division.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to.
The Relief of Diatress,›lreland (No. 2), Bill passed
through Committee.
The House, in Committee, on the motion of the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, agreed to a
resolution authorising an advance from the Consolidated
Fund, not exceeding 50,0001., part of previous repay-
ments, for building workhouses in Ireland.
On the motion of Lord ASHLEY, the Nuisance Re-
moval and Diseases Prevention Bill was read a second
time.

A Bill to amend the Metropolitan Sewers Act was
brought in by Lord EBRINGTUN, and read a first time.
The other orders of the day being disposed of, the
House, at Half-past Two o'clock this morning adjourned
until noon.

Catesby Abbey, one of the most important and in-
teresting estates in Northamptonshire, is to be submitted
to public sale by Mr. Robins, at Daventry, on Thursday
next. The difficulty of disposing of the property in its
entire state has induced the proprietor to divide the
estate into several lotr. Catesby Abbey, with the
manors, village, cemetery, avenue of elms, end two
farms, altogether about 300 acres, forming the principal
Thishcon
lot, offering irresistible attractions to the capitalist.
The outlying farms will be submitted singly, and much
competition ppertoiptieorntyiLielxsphecotweds
allin thethe neeviigdhenbcoeurohf ne
neighbourhood.
with the earliest pried of iegliek history.