The Sun.
London, England, 1836-11-19 00:00:00

TilE

UN, LO

it was necessary to sustain public opinion. If they broke it
down they never could repair it.—(Hear, hear.) If the
Association diminished their demands, the people would in
turn diminish their assistance.—(Hear, hear.) The full
determination of the people of Ireland was never to recog-
nise the principle of tithe.—(Cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested, in order that they might ac-
curately understand what they were doing, that the resolu-
tions should be again read, which was done accordingly.
The two following were introduced in a now shape by the
Hon. Member for Dundalk :-
4th. " Resolved—That in our opinion no settlement of
the tithe question can give satisfaction to the people of Ire-
land which .is not founded on the foregoing principles,
namely-Ist. The absolute denial and extinction of the
right or claim of the Church now by law established, or of
any other religious denomination in Ireland, to exclusive
favour in the application to its religious ministry or ordi-
nances of any funds which shall be levied under any form or
name, by a principle of general or compulsory taxation ;
and, 2dly. That the tithe composition, or any assessment
provided in its place, shall be appropriated in such manner,
and to such objects only, as may serve the general interests
of the nation, without distinction or preference in religious
persuasion."
sth. " That we call upon the people of Ireland not to
desist from all legal and constitutional means of redress, till
hey have obtained full and complete relief from an impost
qually oppressive and degrading."
Mr. O'CONNELL rose, and was received with loud and
repeated cheers.—He said, I have often risen in this room
under circumstances of deep anxiety for the event of the
debate in which we were engaged. My heart has fre-
quently almost fainted when I rose to oppose some popu-
lar proposition, of obvious truth, addressing itself to the
' pride, the passion, and interests of the people. It happened
to me when a young man, in years now long passed, and
when, indeed, my feelings were unbroken in upon by the
untoward events of life—it then happened to me to be
' able to resist those of more moral influence than I had,
and in taking that course now, I appeal to the success of
• that which I had formerly taken.—( Loud cheers.) I now
• with greater pride make that appeal, for I have had the
• Hon. Member for Dundalk himself appealing to the public
' to listen to me as their leader, whose counsel had hitherto
' been attended with success.—(Hear, hear.) If those
counsuls have been previously successful, are they not as
• likely to be so now ?—and let me ask you, during the entire
of our former, memorable exertions, did I ever allow any
body of Catholics to differ from the people by adopting a
' dishonourable course ?—(Loud cheers.) I did not. I
• never attempted to carry any one proposition by the mere
• shout of public applause. I never asked any one to vote
for any measure of mine—l relied upon the deliberate
support of the Association ; and if the resolutions of the
• Honourable Member for Dundalk be examined and agreed to,
in detail they will even seem to carry additional weight from
• their heir'," so adopted. Then they will be the deliberate
act of the Association.—(Hear.) My friend, the late
Hon. Member for the Queen's County, says if you reject
the resolutions you will, by doing so, tell the people that
they will be only relieved from tithe in part, and that the
public spirit will consequently be broken down, although,
by the bye, he himself discovers that such will not be the
result, for he tells you that thelpeople will never again con•
) sent to pay tithe.—(Laughter.) He tells us the people
I will differ from our course. That very idea makes me
decide on the amendment I propose, lest the resolutions
' themselves should be misunderstood, and lest we should be
misunderstood. One of the resolutions proposed by the
• Hon. Member for Dundalk requires to be examined in
detail, for it has not until this evening been before the
A ssociation. The Hon.:Member himself deliberately i:i
the first instance gave notice of three resolutions. He then
! deliberately divided thorn into four, and adds a new one.—
(Hear.) What we ask of the Hon. Gentleman is to allow
us that deliberation which be enjoyed himself—Hon. Gen-
tleman did I call him—will he let me call him Hon. Friend':
• —(Great cheering.) Ido not mean to say he means to
• oppose me.
Mr. CRAWFORD nodded assent.

Mr. O'CONNELL—Then my task is done. I can point
out one resolution, upon which neither the Hon. Member
himself, nor his seconder, Mr. Lawlor, said one word.
Here it is. The Hon. Gentleman Cum read one of the
resolutions, which was to the following effect :—" That
whilst the Irish people demanded relief from the ecclesias-
tical impost of tithes, they required that the tithe assess-
ment, as in its original institution by which it was made a
levy from the profits of land." Now, this, said Mr. O'Con-
nell, is a proposition which I shall be quite happy to dis-
cuss with both gentlemen in the other room. If it be a
levy from the profits of land, which I deny, it is the land-
lord then that is a loser. But I contend that is a part of
the gross produce. The farmer and the labourer are obliged
to contribute to the maintenance of a foreign church out of
their productions, and the parson may run away with the
entire. He is, in fact, but a sleeping partner, and a lazy
one, I believe, too, into the bargain. If tithes be a levy
on the profits of land, why, then, the landlords alone feel its
burthen ; and the Member for Southwark was right, in
that view of the case, when he said that not one particle
of the tithe came out of the pockets of the poor people ;
and, on this principle, lie was also justified in seceding,
upon this question, from the ranks of the Ministerial sup-
porters. This fillacy created at the time a very conside-
rable sensation in England ; but it is, in truth, a gross fal-
lacy. I do not wish to trespass at much length upon
your attention, as the hour is a late one ; but there were
some things of more than ordinary importance which fell
from both gentlemen, and to which I think it necessary to
direct your attention. They talked of the Church lands
being valued at It. per acre. It was Mr. Lawlor—not
Mr. Crawford—that said this. The Hon. Member
for Dundalk talked of them as a resource available
for the settlement of the tithe question. Between them
both, they forward the Church lands under these two
respects ; and the second of them had the sagacity to
value them at but a pound an acre. Don't both Gen-
tlemen know, when they talk on that subject, that this va-
luable property is no longer at the disposal of the Church,
but belongs to private individuals ; an arrangement which
was effected by the Church Temporalities Bill, and which I
hailed as a right good instalment ; for it was a change of
great value to put an end to the Bishops' leases.—(Hear.)
I know the Hon. Member for Dundalk alluded to letting
these leases run out, and setting the land at its full value.
But that could never be done ; because the leases are in
most instances settled. The property is family property,
and is considered as valuable as any other species of pro-
perty.—(Hear, hear.) What has been effected by that
Church Temporalities Bill? It has encouraged the tenants
to purchase perpetuities. Nine out of every ten of them
have paid down the money, and their holdings have
been converted into perpetuites. Hitherto you had no
Church lands in Ireland well cultivated.--(Hear, hear.)
They are now the best in the country—the title is secure.
The value of all property consists in the safety of the title.
I must, therefore, repudiate; with all the firmness which is
consistent with the respect in which I hold these gentle-
men, the bare possibility of changing the settlement
effected by the Irish Church Temporalities Act.--(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") (The Hon. Geatleman then proceeded
to read the remainder of the resolutions, upon the terms
of the first portion of which he had already descanted.)—
Sir, said he, how important is the consideration of every
portion of this resolution. It states that. we require that,
as the tithe assessment is levied on the profits of the land
(of this I have already demonstrated the fallacy), a sum
equal in amount should be imposed in just proportions on
those profitable interests in land, to be applied, without dis-
tinction of creed, to the instruction of the poor, &c. Mark
me—if I were to decide on this question now, I would vote
against it. I'll tell you why : it says—" You shall abolish
tithes, but you shall substitute for them something equal in
amount." Now, for my part, I certainly prefer the
Establishment we are battling against to this some-
thing else.—(Hear.) What is this " something else ?"
I don't know what it is. I am left in the darkest ignorance
on that subject- Neither of my Hon. Friends has said one
word upon it. How, I ask, would this meeting rationally
decide upon such subjects, without having any opportunity
of entering into a consideration of the details? In the other
room we will have the details, and we will then come for-
ward here and submit our resolutions to the meeting, who
will either adopt or reject them. I want the burthen
lessened, not shifted. What matter whether you flog high
or low, if you flog at all ?—(Hear, and laughter.) I can
tell you my own plan. That I am quite ready to do. My
own plan would be to abolish the tithes.—(Hear, and
cheers.) If I had an assembly like this to deal with, I
would put the question in three minutes. My own opinion
is that the people will never rest satisfied until tithes are
abolished.—( Hear.) That is my opinion. That opinion I
gave in the House of Commons during the course of the last
Session. What I would wish to show in Committee is, that
my plan almost completely agrees with this.—(Hear.)
First, I would have an adjustment of the tithe compositions,
and I would have the liberty conceded to the people of
appealing, whereon they complain of unjust compositions.
This they would have secured by the Bill of last year,
if it had passed. Next, I would have the 40 per cent.
off. Mr. (now Lord) Littleton's Bill gave that, but the
House of Lords threw it out, though it passed 80 per cent.
to the clergy, by an Exchequer Bill annually. They threw
it out, however. I put it to the Hon: Member for
Dundalk, whether we could not bring the remaining sixty
into the arrangement he talks of with reference to rent.
You have fixed the value already ; and by taking that up
might not that be a practical way of putting the 60 per
cent. on the landlords? These are the reasons for which
I came here, determined to send these matters to the Com-
mittee for their deliberation.—(Hear.) I am emboldened
by the answer which I received both from this Association
and the Trades' Union, and put the question distinctly to
them, " Have you confidence in his Majesty's Miuisters ?

Have you confidence in Lord Mulgrave ? You could not
have him but for the Ministers ! In endeavouring to ob-
tain a great good, do not destroy another gractical benefit,
by acting directly or indirectly against the present Admi-
nistration. If they were wrong in principle, we would be
bound to oppose them. If not, let them have our sup-
port."—(Hear.) The Trades' Union unanimously re-
sponded—" It is our duty to give our support to keep
Lord Melbourne in power. We are critically placed. We
are not the representatives of any part of the people,
but trustees enjoying their confidence.' Let me tell you
(proceeded Mr. O'Connell), that to reject the desirable in-
stalments is exceedingly injudicious. Why are they to be
rejected ? Why, it is the doctrine I preached continually in
the Catholic Association. I always said, " Let me have
at least an instalment." When a question like this has
been once raised—coming from the respectable source from
whence it emanates, it cannot be set at rest until the opi-
nion of the people of Ireland has been taken upon it. But
it would be most injudicious to rush on to any hasty deci-
sion, and my Hon. Friend has acted quite right in concur-
ring with us as to the propriety of going into Committee
upon it.—(Hear.) But in going into it let us remember
this, that it is our bounden duty to support the present Ad-
ministration against its enemies.—(Hear.) And if there be
some amongst us who are fond of framing high and un-
bending resolutions in a lofty theatrical spirit—who say to
the world, " We must have that, and nothing else,"—let
it be remembered, that in five minutes after the arrival in
London of the intelligence that a resolution of that descrip-
tion had been adopted, it might be carried thence to
Brighton.—(Hear.) We know with what intensity of bi-
gotry England abounds. Have we not heard of thousands
listening to that nameless creature, distinguished only for
an " ingenious device," and to my old acquaintance, Morty
O'Sullivan ?—(Hear, and laughter.) Does it not bespeak
the existence of an immense power of bigotry floating
through England, when such paltry means have been
successful in collecting together so many foolish mobs,
and shouting bigots ?—(Hear, hear.) This is the peril
whish stares us in the face. The amount and the quality
of this bigotry. If you would deprive it of its sting, sustain
the present Administration ; sustain Lord Mulgrave's Go-
vernment. It would be a poor specimen of gratitude to
praise him tohis face, and to do that in the mean time which
will have the effect of packing him off by the packet-boat to
Holyhead.—(Hear .) I often have said—

. ,
" Hereditary bondsmen, know you not,
Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow l"
But I never compared the infliction of that blow to the
conduct of a drunken Irishman in a row, who knocks down
his friend, and gives him at the same time a black eye, in
the very glory of meeting a friend.—(Much laughter.) We
have arrived at an important crisis in our history.—(Hear.)
We have formidable enemies in England. The Court is
against us. The old Hanoverian cry of "No Popery" has
been raised throughout the length and breadth of the land.
It has been re-echoed at numerous meetings, at which
many members of the first classes of society not only at-
tended, but took a prominent part.—(Hear.) The Lord
Wodehouses and others of that stamp. It constitutes the
stock in trade of the operative Conservative Associations.
We have it from one end to the other of the chain of bigotry,
which encircles England ; and the object with which this bigot
cry has been raised cannot be for a moment mistaken.—
(Hear.) Let us not contribute to the enkindling of the fatal
flame in Ireland. Alas ! we are by no means free from its
fatal influence. But, perilously as the vessel of our liber-
ties is placed, let us not, I entreat, raise a breath which,
instead of wafting her onward, may sweep her into the
rushing stream. Oh, Sir ! no men are less determined
for being deliberate.—(Hear.) I have been tolerably sue.
cessful in my career as an advocate for criminals in the
dock ;in going for many years a heavy circuit. I was em-
ployed constantly in conducting the defence of criminals--
many of them took a fancy to me, I believe from my mode
of cross-examination ; and I can truly say, thiit by the
course I adopted, I obtained very many acquittals ; and
there is one general rule in cross-examining witnesses,
which, if I ever deviated from, I did so with regret ;
and this was, that I never asked the witnesses a ques-
tion the direct answer to which could have injured the in
terests of nay client.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland is my client
now..—(Loud cheers.) Yes, Ireland is my client now,
and I know the value to her of the continuance of the
present Administration in power ; for I ask you, Sir, does
not the maintenance of your station in society, exalted
as it is now, depend upon the continuance of the present
Administration in power ?—(Hear, hear.) It has been
said that my object never has been to support a liberal Ad-
ministration, but to promote convulsion ; and that I would
not support any Government. however liberal—yet in what
position do they find me now ?—(Hear, hear.) Yes, and
all sensible Protestants, however they may be affected for a
time by any calumnies that may be utteredlgainst me, will,
after a period of calm consideration has followed, and when
they find that month after month I support his Majesty's
Ministers as far as I can without a sacrifice of principle—
when, I again say, this is found to be the case, we shall have
a million of converts, and many of those who yesterday as-
sembled in Dawson-street will be found congregated with
the Noble Lord (Lord Milltown) and with the many
Members of Parliament who are now present here.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Yes, upon the continuance of
the present Government in power the safety of Ireland de-
pends—(Hear, hear)—if it continues in authority, then
the experiment for the tranquillity of this country may be
worked out, or, on the contrary, the Lords will compel us
to tear the Act of Union to tatters.—(Hear, and loud
cheers.) I agree entirely with the Hon. Member for
Dundalk, that no man has a right to pay in support of
the church of another ; and if I thought that such a prin-
ciple could now be carried out at once to the full extent,
I would gladly work with him—l would become one of
his tail to achieve this object ; but this cannot be ; whereas
prudence will enable us to procure it by degrees—(Loud
cheers)—and who, I will ask, if the proposition for a total
abolition of tithes were made in the House of Commons,
would support the measure ? Why, perhaps, a dozen and a
half of the Irish Members, and a few of the Scotch. All the
Tories, and 75 out of a hundred of the Whigs would be
against it, and so no practical result could be procured.—
(Hear, hear.) I have said enough to show the practical
sense of the course which I have proposed should be pur-
sued by the Association, which has been formed for two
purposes, to obtain Corporation Reform, that will be an
excellent instalment. There is a fable, in which it is nar-
rated that a man having received some boon from the great
enemy of mankind, made a bargain with him that he
would do any thing that he might require of him, and
Satan then directed him to do one of three things, that
he should either injure his mother, kill his father, or
get drunk, and the man having chosen the last, got
drunk, and then committed the other two offences.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Thus it is that I propose
to postpone the question of the total abolition of tithe
—no, the consideration of the question I mean. But
give me Corporation Reform, and then I shall soon get the
other.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) We obtained eman-
cipation by these means, and by the same course of conduct
we shall obtain justice for Ireland, or a repeal of the Union.
—(Loud and continued cheers.) I now, Sir, move that
these resolutions be referred to the standing Committee, to
be reported on this day week.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Henry Grattan, M.P., Mr. Dillon Browne, M.P.,
Mr. Lawless, and some other Gentlemen, afterwards ad-
dressed the meeting, which we left at half-past six o'clock.