The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

were now call ,a 1 upon to protect, by their wisdom and energy
all that was dear in that country.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said the principle of the Bill was
vicious. He could see no advantage it could produce in Ire-
land. They had been told it was necessary to take a decisive
step to correct excesses ; but what was the tendency of these
• supposed excesses of the Catholic Association ? The Catho-
lic Body had been long deprived of their rights; and he might
ask whether it was just on the first appearance of a want of
discretion in men so used to turn on them all the powerful
effect of popular prejudice and legislative wrath. Concession
would do more good than restriction. The justice of the claim
made by Irish Catholics was at least some excuse for their ir-
regularity. If they Laboured under long grievances they were
almost compelled to seek redress in popular assemblies.—
( Hear, hear, hear !)—lt had been said by an able and Hon.
Member of that House, that he should shrink from his duty it
he did not say the vice of the people of Ireland was occasioned
by the faults of their Government.—(Hear, hear!)—The` fault
had been, holding out false hopes—promising a measure of re-
lief, and failing in the attempt to carry it into effect. After
they had been so long disappointed, some feeling of irritation
was natural. Holding out false hopes was enough to make
them lose their patience. The Hori. Member cited the speech-
of the Attorney General for Ireland. That Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said the people of Ireland had not been fairly dealt
with. It was the bounden duty of Government to make
up their minds on a question of great importance. All ex-
pectation of concession on the subject of Catholic Claims,
should be put down if it could not be granted. It was impos-
sible to conciliate the public mind if the Cabinet on that ques-
tion was divided. On such a question it was the duty of men
to speak out. To conceal opinions upon the subject, was to sur-
render the interests of the country. The uncertainty of the Go-
vernment upon that question was one of the causes of dissatisfac-
tion in the sister country. ‘Vhat could follow under such a state
of things but heart-burning. The House were not told what was
to be the benefit flowing from this measure. Did the Right
Hon. Gentleman suppose that when they had put down the Ca-
tholic Rent they removed the cause of complaint ? A cure '
must be applied. They might administer nostrums, but con-
cession and conciliation would only work a cure. If the
Bill passed into a law, it would be inoperative without re-
sorting to force, and if any man in that House could calmly
contemplate the use of force in Ireland upon such a ques-
tion, he should express astonishment at the morbid state of
his nerves. When the fleet of France was in Channel and
Ireland was in danger, some concession on the part of this
country induced that open hearted and generous people to
break up their meetings and bravely assist the efforts of the
British Government. How was it with respect to America ?
The Stamp Act in 1773 occasioned rebellion, but the moment
it was repealed, peace and order followed. The Irish were not
less disposed to be grateful than other countries. If the Go-
vernment gave them that which justice required, they would
disarm all opposition. Whilst they bad cause of complaint,
they would run in one boat down the stream of opposition. In
the event of passing the enactments projected by the Govern-
ment, force must be used to carry them into effect, and Minis-
ters would incur heavy responsibility to the country. He should
oppose the measure.
Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to combat a few of the arguments
urged by the opposers of the motion. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had expressly said he could not vindicate the acts of
the Roman Ca:holic Association. It was his opinion no man could
support those acts; still the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
thought there were points which tied up the hands of Parliament,
and that they were bound to attend to those points. There was an
ead of legislation if that doctrine was right. If Parliament had
not the right to apply a remedy in all cases which they might
consider subject to their controul, there was an end of all legisla-
tion. Many persons might suppose they had cause of complaint,
and contend that Parliament could not deal with any excesses
they might commit. Some believed that the representation in
Parliament was so defective that the people were deprived
of their rights in that House. Why should they not form
an Association for Parliamentary Retorrn ?—(11 ear, hear !)
In case such an Association was formed for such an object,
could Parliament be told that they had no right to deal with
it, because the Members of it had a subject of complaint ? It
was absurd to suppose, for an instant, that the House could
not legislate upon this or any subject. The Parliament of Eng-
land were sole judges of the laws necessary to bind the people.
—Those who thought they had cause of complaint against the
laws had a right to petition, but they had no right to resort
to Conventions and annual Parliaments illegally assembled.—
The Parliament of England could and ought to apply a remedy,
if the proceedings of any body were contrary to toe spirit
of the Constitution. He considered this Association hostile
to, and interfering with the administration of justice. Follow-
ing the example of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
he might cite the doctrines of eminent men upon the law as
applied to confederacies. There was in this country about
three years ago an association which acquired the name of the
Constitutional Association, but distinguished on the opposite
side of the House by the contrary appellation of the
Bridge-street Gang.—(A laugh.)—He was no admirer of
it. He never lent his aid to it, but he could not avoid seeing
a wide difference between that body of persons and the Catho-
lic Association. Every observation made against the Constitu-
tional Association fell with tenfold weight on the Catholic
Association. The Right Honourable Secretary then adverted
to the opinions of the late Mr. Whitbread, to prove that indi-
viduals who did acts similar to those of the Constitutional As-
sociation, came within the Act of Maintenance. He then
resorted to legal authorities. It had been said by lawyers in
that House that counter Associations might take place.—
An Honourable and Learned Member (Mr. Denman) had
properly observed, that the great objection to those Socie-
ties was, that they could not fail to become seminaries for
spies and informers. The truth of that observation was
proved by the case of the soldier who had been acquitted
by forty-three Magistrates. A Learned Civilian had said no-
thing could be more disgraceful than to see pouring into the
Jury-box the members of' these Associations, obtaining, as it
were, a triumph over the law. The Hon. and Learned Member
for Winchelsea, was of opinion that a distinction ought to be
drawn between the Constitutional and Roman Catholic As-
sociations, but the arguments against one applied to all.—
He considered it dangerous to permit the existence of these
bodies, and his alarm was increased by the manner in which
they were defended. The Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Peterborough had said on a former occasion, that
he could not consider the Constitutional Association legal.—
It usurped the authority of the Attorney-General, whose
duty it was to prosecute for political offences. All these
arguments applied to the Roman Catholic Association, and
that fact went a great way in proving the necessity for the
Bill. He should carry the case further, and prove beyond
the possibility of denial that the Catholic Association in-
terfered in the most serious manner with the administration
of justice. The present Lord Mayor, when Sheriff Garratt,
in 1821, was a Memher of the Constitutional Society. A
prosecution had been preferred against a bookseller named
Dolby, for a seditious libel. Mr. Garratt returned the Jurors
to try the defendant. At the trial there was a challenge to the
array. It was stated that the Sheriff, who was returning officer,
had been a member of the Society which prosecuted the de-
fendant. The objection was held to be good by the Court of
King's Bench; and the Coroner of the county was directed
to return another Jury. Now suppose, said Mr. Secretary
Peel, he had been a grand Juror, would not the same principle
of reasoning apply. He disqualified by his connection with the
prosecutors—apply the same objection to the Roman Catholic
Association, and is not every man who subscribed to it
disqualified from being either a juror or witness? In that point
of view had not the Association neutralized the benefits confer-
red on the Roman Catholics? They were all jurors and wit-
nesses, yet their own body had deprived them of those privileges.
The effect would be dreadful in a Roman Catholic town or
county. The subscription of a farthing by way of rent would
deprive every one who so subscribed from appearing as wit-
ness upon a trial for a political offence. All might be dis-
qualified from serving in the administration of justice. The ob-
jection then went to taint the administration of justice, yet the
Hon. Baronet had defended the acts of the Catholic Associa-
tion. He held in his hand the last Paper from Ireland, with
an account of the proceedings of the Association. In the pro-
ceedings of that Body, on Wednesday, a Gentleman made a
report of the case of Chasel and the Rev. Augustus Caven-
dish. They were to be prosecuted at the expence of the So-
ciety, and a memorial was to be sent by the complaining party
to Government. They sent this Magistrate to trial with
the publication of an exparte case. Could any man in that
House support such an act of injustice. He had received
a letter from a Nobleman in Ireland stating that the charge
against the Rev. Magistrate was unfounded. The letter came
from the Earl of Donoughmore, who had the confidence of
the Catholics. He was ready to declare as Governor of the
County that he had sent 400 folios disproving the charge to the
Chancellor. The Judge before whom the matter was investi-
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state of alarm and agitation. This had been attributed to the
Bible Society, but the supposition that it arose from that cause
reminded him of the fable. All
the beasts were struck with
pestilence, and after grave inquiry they found it was occasioned
by a certain ass who had browsed on a thistle on Sunday.—(A
laugh.)—This Association was a public body acting illegally,
and they had a right to infer danger. They had an agent in
every parish in Ireland, and it would be easy to organize
every species of nusehief. The Honourable Baronet said, the
only wanted to raise a sum to contradict a statement made byY