The Sun.
London, England, 1822-07-09 00:00:00

110 USE OF tOMMONS

Mr. THOMAS WILSON presented a Petition from a per-
son named Anderson, praying for a compensation for injuries
alleged to have been done to his property by the West India
Dock Company.—Referred to the Committee on Foreign Trade.
A Petition was pregented from several Merchants•of Hull,
praying' for the total repeal of .the Salt Tax.—Ordered to lie
on the table.

The Loan Bill went through a Committee.—Report to-
morrow.

The " Charge of Pensions" Bill went through a Committee.
'Report to-morrow.---The same course was taken on the Five
per Cents. Repayment Bill.
The Exchequer Bills and Public Works Bill was read a se-
cond time, and committed for to-morrow.—The same course
was taken on the Duchy of Cornwall Bill.
The Small Notes Bill and the Scotch'Registers Bill were read
third time and passed.
The Scottish Spirits Exportation Bill was read a second time
and committed for to-morrow.—The same course was taken on
the Scotch Spirits Drawback Bill.
The " Punishment by Hard Labour" Bill was read a second
time and committed for to-morrow.

The Excise Licenses Regulation Bill went through a Com-
mittee.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
The Report of the Committee to consider the Irish Distress
-was brought up, after a few words from Mr. BERNAL and Mr.
GOULBURN.

Mr. S. WORTLEY could not omit the present opportunity
of condemning the practice of seeking forced benevolence for
the aid of the suffering Irish by going from house to house.—
(Hear, hear, hear!)—It would be better for Government to ap-
ply at once to Parliament for a sufficient sum. •
Mr. CALCRAFT concurred in the opinion of the last

Mr. BENNET expressed himself to the same effect. He
had himself thought it right to refuse attending to the applica-
tion of the Churchwardens of his own parish when they applied
to him for his 'subscription. He would sub‘scribe in his owil"
way, and as he thought proper.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed that
it would be better to take a Vote of Credit to meet any exi.
gency which might occur during the recess.
Mr. DAWSON thought the practice of collecting from door
to door was highly objectionable, though he was in general
friendly to the invitation of private liberality.
General GASCOYNE feared the cause of the present dis-
tress was a permanent one. If a Vote of Credit were to be
called for, he thought an inquiry into the cause should be set
on foot, with a view of affording, if possible, permanent relief.
The Report was then read and agreed to.
SALT TAX.
-- - -

Mr. WILLIAMS (of Lincoln) presented a Petition from
certain Manufacturers of Salt in Cheshire, praying for the total
repeal of the Salt Tax.—Ordered to lie on the table.
SMUGGLING.
Mr. HOBHOUSE presented a Petition from four indivi-
duals who were taken by the Revenue cutter, the Scourge.
They were then conveyed by the Captain of the Revenue
cutter before a Juitice of the Peace in the County of Devon,
and were committed to prison on the charge of having com-
mitted an offence against the Revenue Laws. When the
period of trial came, the informer did not come forward, and
these individuals naturally expected that they should be imme-
diately discharged; but no, they were sent on board the tender,
and condemned to the punishment or working five years on
board this ship. Now, according to the nth of Geo. 111.
chap. 87, sec. 6, every individual charged with a smuggling
offence, had the option of confessing his guilt or submitting to
a trial, vwhich was not given to these individuals ; but they
were at once visited with the punishment of guilt. The Peta-
tioners had'applied to the Court of King's Bench for the writ
of Habeas Corpses, but were refused.
Mr. LUSHINGTON understood that it was only after con-
viction that persons in such circumstances as the petitioners had
the option of going on board King's ships.
'Mr. HOBHOUSE contended that conviction was not neces-
sary, as the party had the option previously.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said that this appeared, an extraor-
dinary case, and, in his opinion, the officers must have acted
under a misapprehension of their duty.
After a few words from Sir GEORGE CLERK and Mr.
BRIGHT, the petition was brought up, and ordered to be read.
On the motion that it do lie on the table,
'sir. BERNAL spoke briefly against the principle of the ex-
isting law ; as did also Mr. WARRE, who reprobated its ex-
treme severity.

-IVii.IIII66GHAIII followed on the same side and said that
the law had lurked unknown on the Statute Book till the pre-
sent application was made to the House. The Honourable and
Learned Member then adverted to the particular provisions of
the law, and maintained that the punishment was most enor-
mous for the offence in question. The Act had passed in a
late period of the Sessions (the 10th of July), when but few
Members were present, and he hoped his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Hobhouse) would bring in a shOrt Bill to amend it, even at
this period, advanced as it was. '
Mr. LUSHINGTON commented briefly on some of the
allegations of the Petition, and it was then ordered to lie on the
table.

Mr. HOBHOUSE expressed his hope that some lion. Mem-
ber more competent than himself would undertake the task of
bringing in a Bill to amend the present 'law. The Petition
was then ordered to he printed.
FORGERY OF BANK NOTES.
Mr. BENNET presented a Petition from an individual
named James Pergusson, complaining that the Bank (110 not
exert themselves to prevent the Forgery of their gotes, and

RETAIL OF BEER BILL.
Mr. F. BUXTON wished to know from his Honourable and
• Learned Frfend (Mr. Brougham) when he intended to bring
forward a discussion on thesPublicans' Licensing Bill ?
' 'Mr. BROUGHAM said'that the Bill before the House, the
Retail of Beer Bill, had no connection with the licensing of
public houses.' lie thought that there could be no objection
to the principle of the Bill, and that whatever discussion might
take place would take place in the Committee.
Mr. BUXTON said he would oppose the Bill in every shape,
both in principle and in detail.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that his wish was to have a full dis-
cussion upon the Bill. There was no measure which stood
upon grounds more firm or more irrefragable. He would take
an opportunity to fix a day for the discussion.
IRISH INSURRECTION ACT.
The Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a
Committee on this Act having been read,
Mr. GOULBI_TRN said, that the House was too well aware
of the circumstances under which the application of the Insur-
rection 'Acts to Ireland had originated to need that he should
recapitulate, thent. In making this application for the conti-
nuance of it, he should not attempt to offer any arguments to
induce the' House to look at it with a more favourable eye than
it had hitherto been' regarded with. For though he had voted
for. that Act; he assured the House that no lion. Member
who had most strenuously opposed it was more senoible than
he was of the general objections to it. •It would have been
most gratifying to his feelings, and to those of the Noble Lord
at the head of 'the Government of Ireland, could they have
thought it possible to dispense with it on the present occasion,.
for they felt that it was not a measure of that nature, which
ought .to characterise the acts of a free Government, and that
it could only be justifiable in a case where all milder means.
would not avail. He thoUght he should be sure of the con-
currence of the House, if be could satisfy them that the
state of Ireland was such as to render the resort to ex-
traordinary measures necessary, the ordinary laws being
at present inadequate, and that this particular law was
applicable. If he were able to do this, he thought he
should remove all objection from the minds of those who
adniitted that extraordinary times demanded extraordinary
measures. So short a period had elapsed since Parliament
had granted this Act, that it was unnecessary for him to go into
a detail of the history of Ireland for the last eight or nine
months. It was merely necessary for him to recall to the re-
collection of' the House the state of things which then existed,
and comparing that with the present moment, deduce the ne-
cessity he was anxious to establish. He requested the House
to remember that at that period there was a general system of
insubordination in the country, existing to a greater extent in
some districts than in others, but infecting more or less almost
every one. The House would remember that this system had
been in progressive operation for six or seven months, up to the
period of. the meeting of Parliament, when open insurrection
was manifested with open warfare against the King's troops.—
This rebellion and insurrection had an evident, distinctive, and
alarming Character-s-that of being directed against the rights of
property and the administration of the law, and principally
and to an alarining extent infecting the lower orders. It was
besideS carried on by secret association, which rendered it.dif-
ficult to fathoni the source Of the danger ; and its mode of ope-
ration was to nxtort oaths for the nonpayment of tithes, taxes,
and rent. The result of the precdneert at nightly meetings,
was a general attack upcin the property of the loyal and
peaceable. The more' particular object of. ahe reDellinn was,
to obtain arms, and to make proselytes, that the actors in it
might be enabled to extend to other partS of the country their
destructive system. He should not enter into a detail of the
atrocious outrages perpetrated under this system, as , they
must be present to the minds of all connected with Ireland ;
at the same time that he abstained from principle, in the Situ.;
ation in which he stood with regard to the House, from making
any appeal to the passions, to assist him, towards the object of his
address. He would merely observe, that the effect of all the
outrages, and of the whole system, was to create a power in
the country stronger than the law. -It might be said that it was
the duty of the Irish Government to apply to Parliament for
strong powers at the earliest moment these machinations came
to its knowledge. But he' was prepared to contend, that the
course pursued by the, Government of Ireland had been per-
fectly consistent with justice and discretion. In his opinion,
it was the duty of a Government to do its utmost to create and
establish habits of obedience und,reverence to the laws ; and
if a Government were to resort at the outset of a manifesta-
tion of a lawless disposition to unconstitutional severe mea-
sures, without tying the strength of the ordinary law's; it
would go far to uproot that respect for the laws, upon' which
the stability of a Government in a great Measure depended.
In addition to what took place at the Assizes, the Government
had resorted to the use of Special Conunissions, through whose
exertions 'many offenders were brought to trial. In the cowl-
ties where outrage most prevailed, the Special Police, who had
been found so ineffectual, were called into action, and the
military were increased one hail'. But all these precautions
produced no diminution of the evil, and at the opening of
•Parliament, the plot had reached its consume and was
on the eve of explosion. Upon the view of this state of things
it was that Parliament was induced to grant to' the Irish Go-
vernment those extraordinary . powers, of which the Insurrec-
tion Act was only a part. It was gratifying for him to say,
that there was no longer the same extent of evil which then
prevailed. There was in the principal disturbed districts a
diminution of outrage. There was also, he hoped, some reform
in the spirit of the people. There was now, which did not then
then exist, a feeling Of kindness towards this ' country,
arising from her exertiona to relieve their distresses, which
he hoped to see grow into a feeling of love for the Go-
vernment,—(Hear, hear, hear !)—But he could not avoid
impressing• upon them that there was at least enough re-
maining to call upon them to hesitate hefore they deprived
the Executive of the means of checking the existing evils, or of
preventing the recurrence of the past. It was impossible. for
any one to have read the-dispatches of the Noble Lorll at the
head of the Irish Government, without seeing that there was a
regular system of outrage—that outrages were exceedingly
numerous, and that they were of a character most alarming.
And althoughahese dispatches did not come down to the latest
moment, he wished it were in his :power to state that the last
accounts did not present to the view outrages exactly simi-
lar. The dispatches came doWn to the end of May, and to shew
that the system continued in vigorous operation beyond that pe-
riod, he need only state the extent to which it was in action du-
ring the following ten days. During that short space of time, in
one County alone there were seven houses' burned; nine houSes
attacked by armed bands; and one subjected to nightly visita-
tion. It was not, however, upon the' number of the outrages
that he applied to Parliament for extraordinary measures. It

Sir R. WILSON gave fill credit to the Right Hon. Gentle-
', man for the conciliatory tone in which he had treated this sub-
ject, which he hoped, for the benefit of Irish, he would preserve
in all his communications with the Irish Government. He
also commended the fair and candid statements he had made
to the House, although it was not in his power upon the strength
of them to agree to his motion with regard to the Insurrection
Bill. He opposed it, as not calculated to obtain that tranquil-'
lity spoken of by the Right Hon. Gentleman ; .but, on the con-
trary, to remove it to a greater distance. lie knew that it was
right, in case Of a fire, to take immediate steps to extinguish
it ; but he thought some attention was to be given to the means
of preventing -its recurrence.- He begged for himself to say,
that he had none of that distrust of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Irish Government spoken of by the Right Ho-
nourable Secretary. He thought him a competent and ami-
able individual. But they were to bear in mind that the
inquiry into the state of that unhappy country had never
yet been entered into. The Right Honourable. Gentleman,
however, now came down to the House to demand a continu-
ance of the tremendous enactments of this Bill. It was true
that he gave them np the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act ;
but that was nothing when they considered that it never
wits required at' all, and was only demanded in the lust of
power, and granted in the wantonness of confidence. His ob-
jection went to the principle of the Bill, which, he thought,
was a subversion of the rights of Irishmen, and a violation of
that Constitution which was the only safeguard of their liberty
and their lives. He knew, however, that brute force was con-
sidered the only via meditatrir of governing in Ireland. He
remembered when he was in Ireland, in former times, seeing
a man so flogged, from the nape of his neck to the calves of his
legs, for being only suspected of being an United Irishman, as
to horrify humanity. He should not .have possessed the feel-
ings of a man had he hot interfered on that occasion, and his
only answer was, that he an Englishman knew not how to go-
vern Irishmen, that the cat o' pine tails or the halter wee: the
only instruments of punishment to treat them with. It had'al-
ways been the practice of his Majesty's Government to pass
coercive measures for Ireland, under promise of inquiry, and
never to perforni them. This had been the case since
year 1798 to the present time. The time was come when
Ireland must be governed as if its people were freemen,
instead of conquered vassals. Though he could not ex:-
pect 'that any successful resistance to the measures of the
Government would be made by the Irish in a servile
war (and he was 'certainly the last man. to wish it), vet he
would advise the Right Hon. Gentleman and his etaeigues
not to.treat with too much contempt, the complaints of the suf.;
ferers. He warned them against .taking a course which would
call forth the energies of despair, and wished them to bear in
mind what a Nobleman had told Charles 1., namely, that the
way to curd rebellion was to remove _the causes of it. It was
cessary that healing measures should be adopted With respect to
Ireland. The'firit remedy to be 'applied was a termination of
-those cittil and religious distinctions which had so long been
kept in that country, and which had proved a constant
sourm of exasperation. He knew it -would be said that the
English House of CoMMons bad done its duty an this subject,
and that the obstacle was to be found elsewhere, , But he could
not help looking. on that portion of the Ministry who favoured
Catholic Emancipation, as being the real impediments in the
day of the measure. If they had refused to remain in the Go-
Yernment when it failed, could any man believe that an Anti-
Catholic Administration couid have been formed? The diffi-
culties which had formerly stood iii the way were no more. • It
was known what were the sentiments of his present Majesty on
this subject, and there never was a time when a King of Eng-
land could be more reasonably expected to say as Joseph 11. I
did, " Thank GOl2l my people are no longer divided by religious
differences." The next remedy he-regarded as a -sine qua non.
It would apply to that which had occasioned all the distur-
bances and rabelliona in Ireland. 'The Howe would easily an-
ticipate that-lie meant -the abolition of tithes, and the esta-
blishment
of a nev'tregulatien of the revenuer of the Church.
He regretted that he had been absent when his Hon. Friend,
the Member for Montrose, took up that subject: He calitend-
ed that it was monstrous to argue that church property
was so sacred in its character, that it could not be regulated
when this was desirable foi the well heing of the State. He
shewed that Parliament had twice applied for a new arrange=
ment of church property in the time of Henry IV. They had
done the same in the reign of Henry V., and the property of
the church was actually taken by the Crown in the tithe of
Henry VIII.— EH ear !) Gentlemen might cheer of the name
of Henry VIII., but whatever they might think of his seizure
of the church property, he had never found those who held any
. share of the 300,0001. bestoWed by him it lay imprdpriations,
disposed to shew that they considered that an act of sacrilege,
by giving up their einefluments. In mocle,fn times, he contend-
ed, measures had been propbsed in Parliament to make a new
regulation in matters regarding the property of the church.—
hat was the origin of tithes ? He would not now go back to
the Jewish, Theocracy to inquire into their character : brit
the House was aware that tithes had been granted to the
House of Levi because they Were priests and guardians of the
Ark, and had'not shared in those lands which had been di-
vided among the other tribes of Israel. To conic to a later
period, Who would pretend that tithes had been known during
the first four hundred years of the existence of the Christian
Church ? It was not till the year 800 that they were intro- '
diced: They were then introduce' by crime.- • The King of
Murcia having committed a treacherous murder, obliged the.
people to pay tithes to the church. He also went to Rome to
expiate his offence by Offering a tribute of a penny exacted
from every householder. He shewed that the circumstances
under which tithes had been formerly claimed were very
different from those under which_ they were now levied, as
many onerous duties then fell on those who received them,
from which they were now relieved. The Bishops now had
princely fortunes. The four Archbishops and eighteen
Bishops now in Ireland received not less,, according to
returns, which he believed to be authentic, than 188,0001,
without reckoning on lease's of tithes and sources 'Of in-
crease, which had enabled one Bishop to die worth 350,0001.
hadwho little property when he went to Ireland. Now with-
out taking from the present incumbents the income they at pre-
sent enjoyed, he held it to be the duty of Parliament not to '
commit an act 'of spoliation, but to make some arrangement
which would be more agreeable to the people, and place the
security of the country on the rock of peace. He set forth
the • importance of conciliating the people of Ireland. For
the. Protestant SchOol they, at present granted the sum of

18;71101. 'For the lrish Catholic School they.'give 9,6001. He
did not quarrel with the disparity between •tne' sums, ',but he
remarked on the vote to the Kildare ASsodiation, 'Which went
to defeat the object, of the. grant he had just tnentioned.-
thought we were bound to respect the privileges of the Ca-
tholica. If they objected to the Bible in English being intro-
duced fbr the instruction of Catholic Youth, no Constraint ought
10 be put on them in this particular. In every iespect attention
.ought to be paid to the wishes and habits of thinking of the Irish.
He was anxious that justice should be done to a brave and, ge-
nerous nation, who not fail to repay their benefactors
with loyalty and gratitude. After some further reinarkS, he
concluded by moving as an amendment—" That it be an in-'
struction to the Committee to investigate the causes of the pre-
sent disturbed state of Ireland, with a view to adopt such mea-
sured as were calculated to restore and preserve tranquillity in
Ireland, and render unnecessary those measures of extraordi-
nary severity, which were alike incompatiblewith the spirit and
practice of the British Constitution."
Mr. LUCIUS CONCANNONLorged the immediate necessity
of adopting some measures calculated to heal the wounds of his
native country ; and warmly expressed the indignation which he
felt at seeing his Majesty's Ministers allow month after month
to elapse, and calamity after calamity to occur, without-any en-
deavour on their part to arrest the progress of the ev%l.. • .
Col. DAVIE'S was of opinion that an enquiry into the State
of Ireland ought to be instituted ; but as he could not oppose
the motion, he hoped he might be allowed to explain the con-
siderations which regulated his vote on this occasion. hie -was
far from approving the system on Which the.preseni Goern-
ment had acted; yet lie thought this no reason why the peace-
ably disposed people of Ireland When
be left exposed to
the assassin's midnight dagger. When the Government de-
manded such powers they no* called for`at the comtnence-
ment of theSeasion, they held out a prothise that an inquiry
Should be set on foot.. He now desired to ask. Why than in=
quiry had not taken place ? In failing to institute one they
had been remiss. He then noticed the redundant.'population
found in Ireland, and the demoralization consequent thereon,.
and suggested, as a means of correcting it, the reformation of the
election system.
Mr. S. RICE saw no grounds for hoping that the'present'
disturbances could be successfully met without the aid of. the
Insurrection Act. The question had been introduced in the
most favourable. manner by the plain, intelligible, and tandid
Statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Against that he had
nothing to say ; but in assenting to the measure now before the
House, he had a duty to perform which he felt to be more pain-
ful than that which had devolved upon him when. he subject
was last before the House; for then, though he would not say
that a pledge had been given by the Noble Marquis that in-
quiry should take place, yet he might assert that the impression
created both in that House and out of doors; was that an in-
quiry would take plaie with a view of getting at the root of the
evil. One boon had been given to Ireland in the course of the
present Session, by the repeal of the Window' Tax, but he
called on the Right. Honourable. Gentleman to name any ether'
permanent benefit that had been conferred on Ireland. The
benevolence of the House had voted a sum to relieve present
distress, but this was only temporary good, and would it be •
contended that the present Bill could be viewed, as a remedy
to the evil it was intended to meet ? thought no Gentle-
man in that House would venture to assert that such was
its character. The Police Bill, modified as "it now was; he
thought would be beneficial, but a mere measure of police, and
an inefficient measure with respect to tithes, were not what
Ireland had to expect from the new Government—Were not
enough to tranquillize the countfy. When the measure was
brought forward before, they passed it in the hope that reme-
dial measures were in contemplation, but the jejune and meagre
grounds on which it was now proposed that it should pass,
were such, that he was afraid similar grouhds might be urged
for its passing at almost any time, He found the dispatches
of 1816, on which similar steps were taken, to be, very different
douse. from those which were now laid before the- lle, for
one, objected to anonymous information being For
his own part, as a -Magistrate, he had always been anxi-
our to take upon himself hny responsibility that might
attach to the information he forwarded, or the tecome
mendations which he thought it big duty to offer. lie oh=
jected to, that part of the present Bill which went to deprive
Ireland of trial by Jury. Gon forbid that he should
dtioy the Chvernrre it those powers which were necessary Sc
meet an extraordinary emergency by interposing a constitu-
tional principle, but he maintained that in this instance no case
had been made out to prove that the step proposed to be taken
was necessary.. The JurieS had not failed in their duty. At
Lirrierick they, had had the experience of two Special Com-
missions,. and he appealed to the Right Honourable Gentle:
man opposite, the Attorney-General for Ireland, if the Juries
there, under circumstances of alarm, which might have ope.'
rated not merely oh weak minds, but on men of constancy and
courage; bad not discharged their . duty with the most um.'
daunted resolution ? Ile was happy to receive the Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman's assent, and under such, circumstances he
would ask by what right could they deprive Ireland of the ail.:
vantages,of trial by jury ? The evils no* complained of in Ire-
land were not peculiar to the present times. They grew out
of the system which had been acted u, on for the last 40, 50,
or 60 years. They would find that the outrages committed
were not new, ,but that they were similar to thoSe which had
occurred from 1640 to 1650. He repeated, that little or
nothing had been - done in the present SeesiOns for the
permanent improvement of Ireland. One motion brought
forward on the state of Ireland had been .objected to on
the ground that it was premature, and that the House
ought to wait till they saw what -Ministers proposed to do.
They had on that account not pressed the motion to a diVision
-they had waited to see what Ministers would do; and they
now saw that they had done nothing. The motion on the sub-
ject of the tithes had been met with the previous qUestion.. He
could tell Ministers that, if they expected fifty InStirrection
Acts would remedy the evils complained of, they deceived
themselves. He begged to call,the attention of the House td
what Lord Bacon had said on the subject of Ireland: There
were four points which he had described its necessary fo be
to led to, in order to rest* Ireland to obedience, and he
called on the House to observe what these. four points were.=
The first was "to extinguish the relics of the late war." The
second, " to attempt the recovery of the hearts of the people."
• He would ask if that had been done by any of the Administrations
that had ruled Ireland since the Union? He had much respect and
regard for many who had formed part of those'Administrations,
but he must say that scarcely a single measure had been 'adopt.:
ed which seemed to have for its object the recovery of the
hearts of the people. The third point to be attended to, accord-
ing to Lord Bacon, was " to remove the root 'of the past and the
occasion of mew troubles." He would ask if anrof the remedial,
or nominally-remedial measures which had been resorted to,
were calculated to root out the cause of the troubles which had
occurred ? The fourth point, which went to the encouraging of
'plantations and buildings, was less applicable to existing cir-
cumstances, but it was analogous to encourage the manufac=
tures and give a new impulse to the industry of Ireland, and
in this view_ it was not inapplicable to the present time. He
then went over the means suggested by Lord Bacon f'ir the
recovery of the hearts o 1 the people. These were the granting
of religious liberty, including toleration. Justice, protection,
and the eqiial administration of the law, and obligation and re-
ward. Were any of these given by the Insurrection Act?
cording to these ideas they would be justified in calling for mea-
sures in favour of Ireland very different from any that had yet
been conceded. He did not mean to say that justice was un:
fairly or partially adriainistered, but the elpence attendant on
legal proceedings in Ireland amounted in many cases to a de-
nial of justice ; and the want of a legal remedy caused many .
of those acts of violence which occurred. He knew a case
' where a person dying left another 151. or 201: The executor
of the will got the property into his possesSion: The legatee
applied to the Assistant Barrister of the lower Court to recover
it. He stated that he had no jurisdiction in cases of legacy.—
The other then got a promise from the executor, and after-
wards- on this promise again called for the, interferehee ;of
the
Assistant Barrister. He, however, still declared thatle!could
not act. The prosecuting party then gave the affair a criminal
turn, and almost produced a breach of the peace-in order to
try a civil question. That was very common m Ireland:. The
peace was often openly broken in order to determine irf a crimi-
nal Court the merits of a case which ought to be the subject of
a civil action. The law of wager of battle had been repealed,
but it was in effect continued in Ireland by the ,SfampActs.
The Irish Gentry had been blamed for not improving their
country. But the fact. Was, their efforts had always Veen frus-
trated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the •ciky. He
'spewed the progress cf crimehad been in proportionto.tlie
crease or 'decrease of taxation. . He considered it ip-vahl fo at..
tempt to put down illicit distillation, but by diminishing the
temptation to commit 'the offence. He protested agOntt sus-
pending the right of Trial by Jury. The Magistrates of Lime.
rick wished the Bill to be renewed,,but desired that it nitht be

-altered in this respect. They wished to give efficiency and
strength to the Bill, by making it more constitutional. Their
opposition, he thought, was entitled to the serious attention of
.Parliament. The instruction offered by the gallant Officer
went to recommend an inquiry, in order to ascertain whether
less severe measures might not be adopted. Ile was inclined
to found the remedies he would apply to Ireland on measures
of conciliation. This he wished to keep in view, though he
might feel the Insurrection Act to be neceseary, and with that
feeling he should vote for the Amendment
Mr. Secretary PEEL could not but regard the course taken
•by the Honourable Gentleman who had just spoken as sin-
gularly applicable to an Irish question, as he had set out
with supporting the motion, and finished by declaring it to
be his resolution to vote for the Amendment. He however
-must bear his testimony to the temperate manner in which
the Honourable Gentleman had, discussed the subject, and if
in the coarse of his speechhe had pressed rather hard on those
' who -.vete now or who had been connected with Ireland, he
could bear it: in consideration of the fetling which that Hon.
gentleman always evinced where 'relent'. was concerned.—
He had a' few comments to offer on those who had preceded
the lion. Gentleman, though as two of the four Members who
had spoken from the opposite side were in favour of the
Bill, of course his remarks would occupy but a short time.
Ile confessed that he was of opinion the Gallant Member
(Sir Robert Wilson), had brought forward no argument that
could at all counteract the impression which must have been
made on the House by the statement of his Right Hon.-Friend.
It hail only been upon the most overwhelming necessity that
the renewal of the Act was called for. His Right Hon. Friend
had challenged the production of one instance in which the
eowere entrusted to the hands of
,the Government had been
exercised with severity. Ile had proved that the Noble Lord
at the head of the Irish Government had only resorted to such
.measures with the utmost necessity ; and it was impossible to
withhold from him the highest praise for the manner in which he
had exercised the prerogative of mercy towards individuals who
.by their crimes had incurred the penalties of the law. Under
allthese cireurnstances,he must express his surprise that the
Gallant Mernber for Southwark should permit himself to de-
clare that the suspension'of the Habeas Corpus. Act had been
required of Parliament at the beginning of the Session from
the lust of power. It was impossible for any man to look at
the result of that application to Parliament and say that it was
. dictated by the love of power.—(Cheers.)—Was it fair, either,
for that Hon. Member to withhold the power now askedfor, be-
cause he saw abuses of power twenty-five years ago ? Was it
wise to revive topics connected with that period and its events?
Would it not be wise, on the contrary, for the House to draw
- the veil of oblivion over them for ever ? It was said that these
powers should not be 'granted, because there had. been no in-
quiry into the causes of the melancholy transactions which
- called for them. Now, he should be glad to know what was
meant by inquiry ? He would ask the Honourable Member
• who urged this, to take the 'three first objects of complaint—
Catholic Emancipation, Tythes, and Education • and he would
then ask him if there had been no inquiry made into the state
• of thoseeat questions. It was impossible to throw them
Together for the purpose of examination. Each of them was
enough for the utmost attention of one Committee, or for
- the House at one time. As an example in proof of this,
there was the Committee upon Illicit Distillation, to which
he himself had given the most unwearied attention for two
Sessions ; and he should like to know whether the Hon.
Member for Limerick would have considered it probable that
the operations of that Committee,would' have been expedited
by mixing up with its inquiries the subjects of Education and
Tithes. He said this to shew that these questions had not
escaped the attention of Government, ,because they had not
been brought under consideration in the mass ; and to remind
Hon. Members that they were not so light and unimportant in
• their separate character as to be so easily disposed of, and
to be immediately remedied. With regard to the inter-
ference of Government, to render assistance to the distressed,
it was extremely difficult to say, where a Government ought
to step in with gratuitous relief under such circumstances.
Certainly not at the _first appearance of complaint. A Go-
vernment who pursued such a course would not be de- ,
serving the name of a Government. The public money was
not entrusted to their hands for such a purpose, and no-
thing but the-most urgent state of public distress could war-
rant its application to the relief of partial distress. If the
Government had, upon the present unhapproccasion, pro-
ceeded at once to give indiscrinimate gratuitous relief, -would
• they not, .in all probability, have preverited that spontaneous
- display of charity and benevolence which they were now wit-
nessing ? Upon the question of tithes, notwithstanding the
claims which the state of the country had made upon the time
.of the Lord Lieutenant, every pledge which had been given
upon the subject by his Noble Friend near him, at the begin-
ning of the Session, had been fatly redeemed. The gallant
Member opposite had quoted the opinion of one whom he con-
eendered to be among the ablest advocates of Tithes in the sister
...country. 'Now be had paid the greatest attention to this, and
' he confessed he could make nettling at all of it. lie would
read to the'House an extract; and 'let them judge of the rest
from it. Thatight Hon. Gentleman then read a passage, in
which the writer said Tithes united " the chants and canticles
of all ages with the fruits and flowers of ail seasons."—
' (laughter.)—This was the authority which the Gallant Mem-
ber quoted.
Sir R. WILSON intimated that the writer was Monsieur
• Chateaubriand.
Mr. Secretary PEEL then proceeded to remark upon the
• Trial by Jury, and stated his doubts of the practicability of
partial introductions of the system of this country. He could
• never consent that the renewal of the Insurrection Act -should
be considered as an 'increase of the power of the 'Government,
or as a measure of coercion to the people of Ireland. It was
,not intended to coersce the people of Ireland, but, to protect
those who wished to observe the laws. It was not so much a
photection for the slated house as for the thatched cottage. He
-relied upon .the dispassionate judgment of the House for the
- enewal of -the Bill, but he would ask those who opposed it
how they could, with the documents before- them, leave the
-country to the dangers which the next winter might bring with
it, unless this protection"were afforded ? It was a measure of
- protection to the innocent and unoffending, and of mercy to
- those who, without it, mighObe led to deeper crimes, which ne-
cessarily brought with them the certainty of deeper punish-
ment.—(Hear, hear, hear !) •
Sir R. WILSON explained.
Mr. J. SMITH said, that if inquiries bad been made into
• the state of Ireland, they had only been attended by the result
of insurrection and famine. That country had been always
governed by a system of coercion, and its real grievances Mid
-never been attempted to be redressed. Even for the sake of no-,
velty, they might make the experiment of te little kindness to-
wards the people of Ireland. They could not make their situa-
.tion worse, or produce worse consequences ; for, under the ex-
isting.system, Ireland had been a burden to this country rather
than an assistance. He could not consent to give such a power
-to the !magistrates of Ireland as this Bill would place in their
hands. The situation of Ireland was now more deplorable than
that of any people in the history of Europe. 'He should oppose
the'Motion.
Mr. DENNIS BROWNE rose to correct a misunderstand-
ing of what he had said upon a former occasion, relating to the
distress in Ireland. What he did-say was, that the causes con-
sisted notein want of provisions, but in money to purchase them.
Sir J. NEWPORT gave a reluctant assent to the renewal of
the Act ; and he trusted that the House viould only do that
under a pledge of limiting its extent to an early period of the
next Session. He hoped that theist of May would be the
latest time at which it should again he brought forward, if, un-
fortunately, that should be necessary, so as for the subject to re-
- ceive the attention of a House not constituted like that which
was to be found at the end of 'a Session. It was not to Insur-
rection Acts that they must look for removing the evils with
• -which Ireland was afflicted. It could only be done by fully in quir-
g into its condition, and altering the system under which they
had grown up. He thought no one would •be bold enough to libel
the people of Ireland so far as to say, that itwas some deformity
in their nature which prevented their observance of law as it was
observed by the people of England. They were respected in
Other countries; and 'they conducted themselves with honour,
and attained the highest-station and rank. It was at home only
that they were dishonoured and degraded. Lamenting exces-
sively the necessity for supporting this Act, he must say that all
who valued the peace and tranquillity of Ireland would pursue
• the same course. No one could feel more deeply than he did
the pain of shutting out his•country from the pee of the British
Constitution.
Mr. 'PLUNKETT said; that he went as far as the Right
Honourable Baronet in lamenting the necessity in which this
Bill originated; and henhould consider it as a dreadful evil if
it were proposed to be permanent; because that would un-
edoubtedle- be taking the Constitution from the people of Ireland.
The Right Honourable Baronet had-spoken upon the goes-
-lion aslin always did, with the greatest good sense,- and prac-
tical' knowledge of his country, which, -upon all occasions,
rendered him-so valuable an ornament of that:House. He felt
. as an Irishman, •the degradation of shutting out his country
from the pile of the-Constitution, even for 'an hour-; but he
sew and acknoviledged the necessity which demanded it. The
Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to thank the Gentlemen of
England 'in that House who took so deep an interest in pre-
serving the liberties and the rights of his country. Ile believed
that if there were any difference in the feeling of the Irish and ,
English Members of the House of Commons with regard to
the welfare of Ireland, it was in favour of the latter. He did
.rot mean any thing invidious 'towards the Gentlemen deputed
from thet country,—to depreciate their patriotism, or to dero-
gate from their sincere and anxious exertions to benefit its in-
• eterests. It had been said by a Noble authority alluded to that
night, that the penal laws against the Catholics attended them
eat .theinbirth, .and followed them to their graves. But these

had been now removed; and was this, a proof that there had i
:been no consideration for the condition of Ireland ? The
:great Statesman now no more, whose name had been .justly
described as being identified with that of Ireland, had greatly
raised -the commerce and the constitutional liberties of his
country. Did this prove that there had been no considera-
tion for Ireland % 'The Right Hon. Hart. had not mentioned
.
his own exertions, but he' (Mr.- P.) would not suffer his mo-
desty to bide the share be had taken in benefiting Ireland.—
There was the Upion also ; was that nothing for the country ?
There were different opinionstipon the subject, but his was that
the Act to which he alluded was its salvation. The pre-
sent Government of Ireland found ,On their arrival in that
coin try a conspiracy ripening into rebellion, and before they
could adopt measures to put it down, the Noble Marquis
had-to-encounter the additilmal evil of famine. All that could
reasonably be expected the Government of Ireland had done.—
The measure for the commutation of tithes had been brought
forward to do as much good as circumstances would allow.—
They were told it was mere milk and water, and not calculated
to afford any essential assistance; but the Government said
they had offered the best measure they could produce, and if
any lion. Member would bring forward a better they evere dis-
posed to give it support. On a former debate he censured the
principles upon which the Hon. Member for Montrose. ap-
peared to rest his arguments on the tithe question. The Hon.
Member laid_down the principle that tithes were not the fixed :
property of the Clergy of the country, and that the Legislature
was. not to deal -with it as the property of a landlord. That,
however, was not the doctrine of the Hon. Member for Mid-
hurst. Without any offence to the Hon. Member, or even sup-;
posing that he meant to confiscate the property of the Clergy, :
tie should' say the Hon. Gentleman's argument applied to other
species of property. If it were good as applied to tithes, no pro-,
• perty would be safe. With fespect to what had been urged isv,
the Hon. Member for 3lidhurst, he was satisfied, from the well
known feeling- of the Hon. Member's heart, .that if he knew
what was the state of Ireland, he would not-object tothe passing.
of the Bill as a temporary measure. The Hon. Member knew
not the state of suffering, oppression, and degradation, to which
the people had been reduced by insurrection. No system of
despotism had ever existed more goading and abominable than
that adopted by the miscreants who took part in the insurrec-
tion—murder, robbery, and house-burning, had been resorted
to in order to obtain absolute dominion over landed property.
—There was no crime they were not ready to commit in Order
to carry into execution their lawless despotism over the refit
-of the community. In the county of Cork, not less than six-
teen human beings suffered capital. punishment. In Limerick
:and other counties, the number of punishments were more
.extensive. He could assure the Hon. Member for Midhurst,
that these executions had not the desired effect ; but when the
insurrection Bill passed the effect ceased. The consequence
of .the passing of this Act was the suppression of a system of
terror. -He was --sure if that were so, the Hon. Member
,for Midhurst would consent to an extraordinary measure,
,which would stop the effusion of human blood. With respect
.to the clause which took away Trial by Jury, he was satisfied
the Bill would -be usele.sa without it. The system of terror
which prevailed in the different counties would have stopped
the course .of justice. The most respectable' Jurors would
have been intimidated, and unable to discharge their duty.
They-would in all probability have fallen victims to the dis-
charge of their duty. He had first received a communication
from the-Crown Solicitor of Cork, stating,- that the greater part
of the law expences of the county had been occasioned by hav-
ing to maintain 100 persons in the gaol of Cork, who sought
security from the terrorists. They were kept in prison as-a
place of safety, to save them from these murderers. In one
instance a person ventured out, and was murdered. The re-
newal of the Bill was necessary.
Mr. GRATTAN did not oppose the Bill, but expressed a
hope that his Majesty's Government would do something ef-
fective for Ireland, and limit the duration of the Bill to May
• only. .
The House then divided-r-
For the Bill , - - . 135
' Against it - - 17
Majority - - —llB
On our admission again to the Gallery, we found the House
in Committee on the Bill.
____ _ . _ . . . . .

Mr. GOULBURN proposed, filling: up the blank with the
-words First of August.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT suggested that the first of May
ought to be substituted for the first of August.
Mr. GOULBURN assured the Committee, that he_ would
take care to give an early notice of his intention to renew
:the Bill, if, unfortunately, the renewal should be necessary.—
No effort would be wanting on his part to introduce the sub-
ject when there should be a full attendance of Members.
Sir J. NEWPORT could not admit that any duty which
Irish Members had to discharge ought to interfere with their
duty. in that House.
Mr. J. P. GRANT expressed a hope that his Right Hon.
Friend would not give up his intention to shorten the duration
of the Act. _ _ _ _

Mr. BROUGHAM also recommended his Right Honour-
able Friend to take the sense of the Committee upon his pro-
posal amendment. He could not depend upon the assurance
of theßight Hon.. Gentleman, who might be out of office next
year. He-should distrust the statement of any Minister.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he should object
to shorten the duration of the Bill. If it were limited to the Ist
of May, the House would • be compelled to discuss it about
Easter, and his Majesty's Government would not have the op-
portunity of waiting to the longest period, to see if tranquillity
might not-supersede the necessity of' renewing the Bill.
The Committee then divided on the question—
For filling up the Blank with the Ist of August 94
For the Ist of May. 37
Majority - —57
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to ue
received to-morrow. _ _