The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-12 00:00:00

75 000 000 of ball cartridges, made up ready fur
use; besides the p,wder in barrels. (Hear, he-.r,
and loud laughter.) Yes, but the people would not
laugh when they read what he wAs stating. Tne people
would not join county Member. in their laugh.—(Hear,
hear.) Then they had 50,000 pieces of cannon in store,
5,000000 of gun cartridges, and 1,200,000 sand bags
ready for fortifications. They had as much powder in
store as would have served for three years during the
war with France, or fifteen years in the time of peace,
to say nothing of the 50,000,000 of ball cartridges
Did it look, therefore, as if the Government had made
great way in the preparations for peace ?—(Hear,
hear.) During the last four or five years they
had spent upon an average twice as much in forti-
fications, steam basins, docks, barracks, and in the
means of aggressive and defensive warfare as in any pe-
riod since the peace. Indeed Mr. Hume had informed
him that the cost had been greater during these four or
five years than during any of the previous years. They
had doubled the ordnance expenses since 1836. Then
there was as much invested in the steam navy of the Go-
vernment as they had in the whole of the merchant steamers
He repeat( d this fact now, and challenged any one to
contravene it. He stated so last year, when the state-
ment was treated with credulity by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and the House, bat he had gone into
the figures, and it was correct, and ho could
prove it. And more money ;lad been invested in
repairing ships and proaiding basins for them, than was
invested for the same purposes in mercantile docks.
What was the fact ? why, that civilization instead of
b• fug available for the requirements • peace, was con-
stantly made available for the purposes of war, thus
making science contribute to the barbarism of the age in
which they lived. He challenged any one, by more
than mere declamation, to deny that this was so. Why,
they spent more in one year now, during the time of peace
than in seven years during the war. He was happy to
co-operate with the " Peace Confederates," though, in
that House, he did not take his stand on the high
ground it did; and he was ready to share in any
calumny or derision which might be cast upon them.
He had sat on Committees on the public estimates, but
he, and those who sat with him, were of opinion that
there was no logical end of their proceedings—they saw
no result unless they could opproach foreign countries
with the hand of peace! Because increased exenditure
would lead to increased taxation, and taxation, he be-
lieved, had reached its limits.

It might be said that his plan would not meet all cases;
but ho thought it would, and a great deal bet-
ter than the plan now resort, d to. He
thought, at all events, that the substitution of
arbitration was a more rational plan than a resort to the
sword. He took his stand upon past experienc?, and
he would prove that in four out of every five cases
which had occurred during the last twenty years.
Arbitration would better have disposed of them than
war. Take the case of 1837, when a dispute arose
Russia relative to the confiscation of a ship, Vixen,
in the Black Spa. Every body knew that that ship was
sent out by particuhr parties for the purpose of
embroiling this country with Prussia, and he appealed to
the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, who was Fo-
reign Minister at the time, whether a treaty of arbitration
with Prussia would not have saved him froth party. at-
ticks, and prevented a good deal of unpleasantness and
apprehension in this country. Take the next case of
the American boundary question, which caused much
apprehension on both sides of the Atlantic, would it not
have been better to have referred this matter to an arbi-
trA ion of geographers than have allowed it to cause
so much excitement. Then there was the case
of Al'Le d, wit:. was imprisoned in the state of New York
for having avowed that he took part in the burning of
the Carolina. Suppose that man had been executed, the
consequence would have been that what was called the
honour of the country would have had to be vindicated.
An HON. MEllBER—Certainly.
Mr. COBDEN—Certainly said an Honourable
Memb r. One man would have lost his
lif and straightway they would have plunged
into a war which might have sacrificed tens of thousand
and hunrired of thousand lives thi ought it could restore
deal man. Now how much better it would have been
had ar etration been resorted to iu that case. True, it
cculd not have restored the lite of the man, but
it could have insured some provision for his widow and
childrer. He came now to the case of Otaheite.
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

CLERK EN `YELL.-('PHIS DAY.)
MANSLAUGHTER.--Edward Hammond was placed at
the bar, upon a remand, charged with the mandaughter
of a man named Dryton. The particulars of this case
have already appeared in The Sun a few days ago.—lle
was committed for trial.

James Brown and Philip Lee were charged with ill-
using a boy of the name of Edward Yandall.
The complainant, with some more boys, wero at play
on the Maiden-lane bridge yesterday afternoon, when
the prisoners came up and made a disturbance. Lee
t.ok up a brick and threw at Yandall, which struck him
to the ground insensible.

Several witnesses came forward and proved the pri-
soners threw stones at them.
The prisoners, who had nothing to say to the charge,
were ordered by the Magistrate to find bail.

A correspondent informs the Jewish Chronicle that
Baron Rothschild, who was sitting under the Speaker's
gallery at Mr. J. O'Connell's Parliamentary " turn- out,"
declined to withdraw. References were made, and
among others to Sir R. Peel. The Baron remained as a
matter of right.

CLYDE, JUNE B.—Wind W.—Arrd. Elizabeth and
Margaret, Dathie, Newfoundland. Sld. Mary Morris,
New York. 9th, Borneo, Singapore.
NEWPORT, JUNE 1 I.—Vind N.E.—Arrd. Sarah Ann,
Sktat-ld. Liverpool; Dale Park, Tilby, ditto; both for
Boston, United States.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

[HOUSE OF LORDS, June 11.
VENTILATION IN MINES.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS presented a petition
from Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, praying for the adoption
of more effectual measures for the ventilation of, and for
the prevention of explosion, in coal mines. He stated
that facts showed that this was a petition entitled to the
most serious consideration of their Lordships. There
was no occasion for him to dwell on the interest and
importance of this subject, for their Lordships knew well
now essential it was to the wealth and to the comfort of
the inhabitants of this country thatcoal should be raised
withthe least possible waste and cost. The accidents which
happened so fr. quently in our coal mines arose from the
presence of obnoxious gases, and the question for con-
sidtration was as to the best mode of remedying them.
In the year 1847 there were 623 persons killed and
196 severely wounded by explosions in coal mines,
whilst, in 1848, there were 446 persons killed and
158 disabled tor life. In 1835 a Committee had been
appointed by the House of Commons to examine into
the extent and to investigate into the causes of these
accidents in coal mines, and also to devise and consider
the remedies best calculated to secure the lives of the per-
sons employed in them. That Committee collected a large
body of in ormatiou from scientific and practical men,
hut did not recommend any sufficient remedial measure.
Mr. Gurney gave evidence before that committee, and
xplained his plan for the perfect ventilation of mines.
The Committee expressed a hope that some measure of
that kind would be adopted, whereby the object for
which they were assembled would be accomplished. No
practical measure followed the sittings of that Committee,
and matters remained in the same state until a fearful
explosion took place in the neighbourhood of South
Shields. Then a meeting was held in that town, and a
local committee was appointed, consisting of scientific
and practical men resid:ng in the neighbourhood of that
town. It sat at different times for a period of three
3 ears, considering and discussing various measures for
the prevention and remedy of such disasters. He then
held in his hand their report, and a more valuable
document, in his opinion, never was published. nu
would not read it to their Lordships, but would
merely state that it contained a very graphic descrip•
Lion of the scenes of misery which one of these ter•
rible catastrophes occasioned.—(Hear.) The members
of that committee had taken great pains in examin-
ing and analyzing the different species of gases and
inelescribing the operation of the choke damp, the after-
damp, and the various other incidents which exposed the
miners to greater dangers than any other set of work•
men engaged in industrial pursuits. They had also ex-
amined the different means employed for the protection
of the life of the miner, and described the different
safety-lamps which were now used in different mines.
They showed that the best lamps were insufficient for
the purposes for which they were intended, and in cer-
tain conditions of the 'atmosphere increased rather than
diminished the danger. They then proceeded to point
out for adoption the plan for the ventilation of mines
which Mr. Goldsvecirthy Gurney had described minutely
in his evidence before the Committee of the House of
Commons in 1835. They had also called on that gen.
tlemsn for further explanation; and the conclusion at
which the South Shields committee arrived on bear-
ing the further explanation of his plan for ventilation
by high steam-pressure was, that it was sufficient
for the purpose for which it vas intended. Notwith-
standing the recommendation of that committee,
nothing was done to carry it into effect till last year,
when two eminent scientific men, Sir 11, de la, Beche and
Dr. Playful:, were appointed by Government to examine
into the accidents in coal mines. They, too, were of
opinion that an improved system of ventilation was re-
quired in the coal mines. In the year 1848 a Mr.
Foster, who was connected with the Seaton Delaval Col-
liery, saw in London some experiments on the high
steam-pressure principle, which appeared to him to be
applicable for the ventilation of mines and buildings
He put himself immediately into communication with
Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, and in consequence estab-
lished his machinery in the Seaton Delaval Colliery. He
held in his hand a letter to the editc,r of a Gateshead
paper, written by this Mr. Foster, who happened to be
the viewer of the Seaton Delaval Colliery, and in that
letter he made the plan of Mr. Gurney quite intelli-
gible, and described it as perfectly successful. At that
time he stated that there was an increase of fifty per
cent. in the ventilating power as compared with the
old power, and since that pollee: that increase had
been raised to a hundred per cent. An incidental ad-
vantage, not contemplated by the inventor, had ulso been
gained by this machinery. A colliery in the neighbour-
hood of Manchester was on fire. Formerly there was
no mode of extinguishing it except by pumping in
water in a considerable quantity and by pumping it out
again afterwards—an operation of some labour and con-
siderable expense. Mr. Darlington, the proprietor of
that colliery, having heard of Mr. Goldsworthy Gur-
ney's experiments, applied to him in writing to come
down and extinguish that fire. Mr. Gurney, in reply,
told him that he had no doubt that carbonic acid gas
could be driven through the mine so as to extinguish
the fire. Mr. Darlington acted upon the opinion of
Mr. U. Gurney and had since acquainted the public

that the fire was extinguished at a cost of fewer pence
than there would have been pounds lin•rl the old system
ot pumping in and of pureeing out been adopted. The
fire was extinguished, and Mr. Darlington declared that
the mine now was perfectly ventilated. lle would not
have troubled their Lordships with any further observa-
tions had it not been represented that Mr. G. Gurney
was visionary enthusiast. He (the Earl of St. Germans)
had known that gentleman for years. Ho believed
that he was an enthusiast, but denied that he was a
visionary one. A more practical man he had never hod
the honour of meeting. Mr. G. Gurney was originally
a medical man, and it was while he was studying the na-
ture of the different gases, that he made these discoveries.
His Lordship then enumerated the different inventions
of Mr. Gurney, all of which, particularly the Bude
he eulegi ed as eminently useful. He called upon their
Lordships to give their favourable consideration to this
petition, and expressed a hope that Government would
take Mr. Gurney's plan in hand, for it was disgraceful
that these accidents should occur so frequently, when
there were adequate means of preventing them.
Lord BROUGHAM strenuously supported the prayer
of the petition, and as a proof of the necessity of adopt-
ing Mr. Gurney's plan of ventilation, referred to the re-
cent accident in the Hepburn Collery, where thirty-three
lives had been sacrificed out of thirty-four which were in
the mine at the time of the explosion. When their
Lordships saw these dreadful calamities happen-
ing so ireque ntly that 700 or 800 persons were killed
and the same number maimed and injured every year,
and when they saw that 1,500 persons were more or less
damaged every year from the utter impossibility of mak-
ing the workmen attend to their own safety by the
proper use of the safety lamp, they could not want more
decisive proof of the necessity that something ought to
be done, and to be done immediately. He thought that
it would be better to have a Committee of their Lord-
ships appointed to examine into the whole of this sub-
ject. If this system of ventilation were a cure for the
explosion of fire-damp, he should not like to be the pro-
prietor of a coal mine criminally proceeded against for
the result of such explosion, now that the cure was
known. He then favoured the House with a description
of the experiments which Mr. Watt, the inventor of the
steam-engine, had personally superintended in a coal
mine that was on fire, for the purpose of extinguishing
the fire by means of a rapid supply of steam to all parts
of the mine.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE believed that it had
'now been pretty well ascertained that experiments of a
successful nature—he himself had had an opportunity of
seeing one of them—had been made by Mr. Gurney on
this subject, both in the metropolis and in mines in the
country, and up to this time he was not aware of any
serious practical objection that had bean discovered to
the applicetion of his plan to the removal of an evil which
affected the lives of a great body of her Majesty's subjects.
Under these circumstances he felt that it would be most
desirable that some special publicity should he given to
the plan; and that if an inquiry could be made into its
merits without involving any unnecessary expense it
would be very satisfactory.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said, that the presumption
no doubt was that Mr. Gurney's invention was a most
valuable one ; hut, whatever might be the actual case
with respect to that invention, he must. say it was well
worth the while of Government to consider whether
the time had not arrived, and whether there was not
sufficient ground for their appointing inspectors of coal
mines.—(hear, hear.) He cont., ssed that he had at one
time entertained great doubts of the efficacy of such
appointments ; but there had ot late been some useful
inquiries made at the instance of Government. and some
most valuable information laid upon their table with re-
spect to such an arrangement, which had induced him
to change his mind. He found that in Belgium there
had, for years past, been Government inspectors, es-
tablished upon the best possible system, the inspectors
being able and competent officers, whose duty it was,
not to interpose their authority for the purpose of
controlling and directing those who were respon-
sible for the management of the mines, but to assist
them with their advice as to the best possible means of
preventing catastrophes. And what had been the re-
sult? It appeared from the report of Mr Seymour, one
of the inspectors under the Act fur preventing young
persons working in wines, that since the period of the
appointment of inspectors in Belgium—although there
had been an increase of 20 per cent. in the amount of
coal produced, and an increase of 17 per cent, in the
number of persons employed in coal-mines—there had
been a decrease of 20 per cent. in the number of fatal
accidents.—(Hear, hear.) Now, however effectual the
plan of Mr. Gurney might be for its own especial pur-
pose, viz., in creating a mechanical process for the ven-
tilation of mines, it was obvious they could not dis-
pense with the additional security of inspectors in order
to a-certain that it was properly applied to all mines.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the second
reading of this Bill,
Lord BROUGHAM suggested the expediency of
postponing the second reading till a future day. There
were three persons in that House who had held the office
of Chancellor of England—one was absent, unhappily,
from indisposition, and it was in vain, perhaps, to wait
till he was able to be present; but there was another
absent, who would undoubtedly have been present if he
had been aware that this Bill was coming on that night,
and he (Lord Brougham) suggested, therefore, that it
would be more satisfactory to postpone the second read
ing till another day, in order to enable that Noble and
Learned Lord to be present.
L ,rd CAMPBELL was understood to assent to the
proposed postponement.
Lord STANLEY remarked that it would save consi-
derable discussion on the second reading of this Bill if it
were previously referred to a Select Committee.
Lord CAMPBELL said, that if the principle of the
Bill were affirmed by the House, and if it were then
thought desirable to have some of the details more care-
fully considered, he would not object to its being sent to
a Select Committee; but, until that House had affirmed
the principle of the Bill—until he saw whether that
House agreed with the other House, where the Bill had
been carried by an overwhelming majority—until he saw
whether they agreed with the public, who were under-
stood to be generally favourable to the Bill, he could not
convent to send the Bill to a Select C'ommittee.—(!tear.)
Lord MON"FEAGLE wished to know what was the
principle of the. Bill?—(Hear, hear.) If it was merely
that it was expedient to provide a better, cheaper, and
more equitable mode of effecting the transfer of landed
property in Ireland, it was unnecessary to take up time
in discussing it, for that was a mere truism upon which
they all agreed; but if the principle of the Bill was that
the machinery therein specified was the best mode of
carrying out that object, then it was impossible the
House could affirm it without a discussion.—(Hear,
hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that the best
way of Noble Lords satisfying themselves as to what
was the principle of the Bill would be to hear his Noble
and Learned Friend develop it, which he had not yet
had an opportunity of doing. When he had so done it
would be for their Lordships to judge whether they
assent to the principle as stated by his Noble and
Learned Friend, and give the Bill a second reading, re-
serving to themselves the power of afterwards saying
whether it was expedient to refer the details to a Select
Committee.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord CAMPBELL then rose to move the second
reading of this Bill. He said this was a most important
measure, and, he would allow, an arbitrary one, which
nothing but the letnentable state of property in Ireland
could justify. Unless such a measure was adopted, the
consequences must be ruinous to that country. The
difficulties might have arisen from the imprudence of
the proprietors, but he thought it might be assigned with
greater justice to the defects of the law of real property
in that country. In England, when a party borrowed
money, ho gave a particular portion of his property as
the security, and the remainder of his estates were free,
and were under his control; but in Ireland the custom
was to give the creditor a judgment deed, which ran over
the whole of his property, either in possession or in
which he might afterwards become entitled. This judg-
ment would also be assigned to another party, and
when that was the case, it was almost inspos-
possible to know who thel creditor was when
the owner wished to pay off the mortgage. They
had also in Ireland a system of registration of deeds,
which he hoped in time to see established in this coun-
try. At the same time it was better to have no registry
at all than a bad one. The registry they bad in Ireland
was a curse to that country, for the information it
afforded was altogether defective, only stating that a
deed had been entered into between the parties, and was
often made the means of great fraud. It was necessary
that all the parties interested in the property should re-
ceive notice; the consequence was, that the estates
which were in chancery melted away. Sir Edward
Sugden told him that when a cause came on a number
of lawyers rose, who appeared for the parties, who had
nothing to do but to throw down each a brief, which
Sir Edward Sugden compared to the bombardment of a
town.—(Laughter.) As soon as a judgment was ob-
tained in the courts in Ireland a receiver was ap-
pointed. In fact, the only thriving trade in Ireland was
that of the receiver. That being so, it became neces-
sary to have a tribunal other than the Court of Chan-
cery, and with that view this Bill had been prepared, of
which he had the most sanguine expectations of success.
The principle of the Bill was the appointment of
three Commissioners by the Crown, who were to act
in Ireland with all the powers of the Court of Chan-
, eery, but without its delays and expense. There was a
power given to the incumbrancer or the owner to apply
to the Commissioners. It was very important that this
power should be given to the owner, as he could not now
sell without:the consent of the mortgagees and incum-
brancers, and it was most important that the mortgagee
should have the power to apply, as, from the bad ma-
nagement of the estates, the tenants often pay no rent,
and he had no power to interfere, as the estates were in
the hands of receivers, who, also, in their turn, had no
power to sell the property. All parties were, in fact,
now in a lamentable condition, and it was proposed to
give the Commissioners ample power to remedy there
evils, by sale of the property or otherwise, as might ap-
pear most profitable to all the interests concerned, and
give a Parliamentary title to purchasers. The great ob-
ject was to procure purchasers.—(Hear.) They could not
be found now, because they did not know upon what
they were to lay out their capital; but under this Bill
their title would be safe. The Commissioners were to lay
down rules, which were not to be acted upon till ap
proved of by the Privy Council. There would also in
certain cases, where there might be reasonable cause for
doubt, be a power of appeal. To give a power of appeal
in all cases would render the Bill useless. The objection
was that it superseded the Court of Chancery; but it did
so only in cases in which it was found that the powers
of that tribunal were wholly useless. The Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland approved highly of the mcacure. Then,
again, it was said that the Bill would be too extensive in
its operations; but there were incumbered estates in all
parts of that country, so that it would be impossible to
limit its operations within geographical boundaries. If
the owners of land in one district were to be benefited,
the owners of land in all districts should be entitled.to

the like advantages. At present owners of land who
attempted sales of their property wer6r.tiPosteto run!
ous expenses. He hoped, therefore, that their Lord-
ships would concur with the other House of Parliament
in giving their sanction to this measure. He moved that
the Bill be read a second time.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE seconded the motley.
Lord BROUGHAM said that, in opposing the 1310-
lion, he did not wish to be understood as wholly disse•
proving of the Bill, for he highly approved of its
principle. But he wished to throw out some suggestions
not ce a hasty or ill•considered eature. That was ne-
cessary, for bad legislation was worse than no legislation,.
at all. There were many points in the Bill worthy et
recorsPeration. That was the opinion of. the Law
Amendment Society, who had given mach attention t°
the subject, and, indeed, who originally suggested the
principle of the measure.—(Elear, hear.) He himself
had great difficulties and doubts on the subject. es'ea
Noble Friend.(Lord Campbell) admitted with
dinary candour that it was a very arbitrary Measure'
which it could not be if it was only to give a new direr.
tion to a power already in existence. The powers to 'l°
given were indeed of a very novel character. Three
missioners were to be invested with very large powers,
if they were only to be invested with sufficient powers
to sell, what need was there of an Act of radial:need
for that purpose. Upon payment of the mortgage alit
incumbrances that could be done now. By theb ;
'struck him that the reason why the Irish Members e.
where were so enamoured of this Bill was, that seal"'causer-
borly had been practising upon them by inducing the
to believe that they could sell their estates by tbis Waif
sure without paying the incumbrances on mortgage!' ed
so they were mightily mistaken. His Learned
said what they wanted was bidders for these estates'
No doubt it was, and. Friend seed
pass Noble and Learned Frie
pass this Bill, and you will hare plenty of bidders. it waget"
said the want of bidders arose from the defective Bt3 e
of the law; it was no such thing; it was in consease!cet
of agitation and the bad poor law of that countrYett",b",
they could not get bidders for property. It they had ".itt
south as tranquil as the north, they would not w",„.
bidders; and this was clear from the fact, that unineu;
bercd estates ci uld not find bidders.—(Hear.) He kneed
that the judges in Ireland were opposed to this Bill, a,
et
that was the reason why he should refer it to a SVeps,
Committee. If he found that the Irish proprietors,jo°gco
and lawyers were favourable to it, he would net ge,
any strenuous opposition to the Bill; but he felt it bit
duty as an English lawyer to state his opinion. 11 bt
was referred to a Select Committee his objections lots,
be removed. His great objection was to collusive sscies
which might be obviated by limiting the sale to 0
fined number of years' purchase. to
The Earl of GLENGALL said he was oppose"
the principle of the Bill, which was, a complete confisec;;
lion and spoliation of property. He could believe w
Englishmen would vote for a Bill which was founded °its
the principles of communism and socialism. He thou on
that Louis Blanc, Mons. Considerant, and Mons. Fru° to
were the parties who should form the triumviretedss
carry it into execution. There was nothing but °By,
cations in Ireland. There was no security for proper,er
and therefore it was not improved Up to the Ytre,
1782 the Legislature had checked the manufae,rtud
of Ireland, which were nearly destroyed• e";
passed the poor-laws for Ireland, not to' benefit
Irish, but to prevent the poor of that country "er.
corning to this country ; and now they Peas
secuted the weakest party in Ireland—the, '94eo
lords, because they were unwilling to 0"/"Tee
money for the relief of the poor of Ireland• oti
state of Ireland was brought about by the bad legisla,.'ios
of this country. The system of judgments was lat°s!fy•
jurious. In consequence of the practice of not satelsooa
ing judgments which had been entered up for debts 75 se
the estates of the debtors, there was enormous e! on
entailed upon parties. In one case lately that hseteded,
under his notice there were 440 judgments not satin ye
and when the case came into Court from the sttornteio
not satistying the judgments, every one of these neratoo
had to be made packs to the suit, and the conseqs- 00
was an enormous amount of expense attendant,geso
every step respecting the disposal of property. teee
were evils that required a remedy. Another e).5:00
that of the receivers, required notice. These reeeti.ich
had the entire management of the estates over 71,4
they are appointed. Numerous tricks were PlaYe,soe-
attorneys to get this appointment, and when the alit
ceeded in tide, oftentimes by procuring parties to e° eta,
perjury. They then receive all the err 0
and are not obliged to account for them ei°tiae
period of fifteen months, by which T'bei
he makes a very handsome thing of it.
noels
had also great power over all tenants who were 11"reet
to pay their rents, and the consequence was thet of
injustice was often done to the tenant for the bene
dlO
the receiver. The whole of those evils he attribute ad
Pigott's Act, which he thought ought to be repealee; be'
things restored to the same state that they were. ilipgs
fore. It was quite possible to alter this state of t'6oo.
without acting so unconstitutionally as to appoint ode
missioners. The masters in Chancery might be
esof
useful for this purpose, and by simplifying the Pr°c,. -0
in
the courts of equity, and retracing the steps ts"efied.
bad legislation, a sufficitnt remedy might be aPPoese
There was another most important subject. Were lei'
triumvirs to sit in public? Was the press to betheir
mitted? Were lawyers to be admitted to shove tiP
proceedings? Was the public to know anything
rleree
ing proceedings for the sale of estates till the not,
was tulminated in the Dublin Gazette? Ile had was
after inquiry, been able to ascertain whether this
_A,
to be a secret tribunal, or in what manner their pro
ings were to be conducted. That was a most irter,rt be
subject, and he wished some information upon iu
great object of this Bill was to improve the west of I's,
land, but he could affirm, from experience, that ne tcao
pital or skill could permanently improve the lands in de
far west. He was perfectly ci nvinced that these log
speculators a ho expected to make fortunes by purcheso6
these bogs ar.d morasses, would be disappointed' aleshoped they would, for not being actuated by per or
tives. lie knew per: ens who had attempted the iMPIore
merit of portions of the soil, and after two or three 'pa
they had to begin all over again. He thought this
should not pass in its present form. healer
Lord BROUGHAM said he wished to know %wit,
the Commissioners were to proceed entirely by ow
or by viva voce examination? he
die-
Lord CAMPBELL said it was left entirely in t es is
cretion of the Commissioners. There were no i° ower
the Bill. The B:11 gave the Commissioners the Pdipge.
to lay down rules of practice to guide their prose they
Lord MONTEAGLE said, the only answers the
could get upon points raised upon the Bill were, thti,icilb
Commissioners were vested with powers to deal old
them, so that tt whole real property in Ireland " be
be in the power of these Commissioners. 131htjeeea,
would ask, were they left in such a state as ua- oorb
described by his Noble Friend. He approved of t!
mode of conveyance, but that was rejected when Token
gested it on another occasion. This Bill was to be led
in connexion with another Bill, in which new pri!.. 011.
were laid down, and which were engrafted on thisear
The Bill to which be reierred was the Irish P°°'inted
Amendment Act, by which guardians were APP°
upon the authority of the Crown, who had power','o
rates and to incur debts. In that Bill there .
it ", 0
off
waS •
power to appeal to the higher Courts, and -- that
discovered that there was an incident to that perierrateli•
a lee simple could be sold for the payment of the ' Bed
In Connaught there were miles of land left waste 10
uncultivated, because the landlords would not underootS
the occupation because the rates were due of the ten ken
who had abandoned the land. This Bill was to be tear'
in connexion with that Act, and would enableLthenoor
Pot-
ties to sell these estates for the payment of teeclose
rates. He would suggest the introduction aOr ni°r°
for the protection of lands held jointly by LW° ~„erill'
proprietors. The great evil in Ireland was the sire ob'
tending power of the supreme court oftq if uitY° WY
jeered to the time at which it was produced. If
passed this Bill, it would be a declaration of war 0°
that class which was now most sufftheering
The Earl of WICKLOW said tir.gunsen's,,,, w
hiod
he heard against the Bill, from Noble Lords w"; pal
spoken, were applicable to the Bill In Committee' had
did
not apply to the principle of the Bill which thel ere
now to consider. He thought the three COlnatiSsi°vljro;
would be much more competent to deal with the
0f
posed facilitating the sales of property than the C°ll-ther
Chancery in either country could be with so much (lithe
business to transact. lle had heard nothing agains'bial
principle of the Bill, ror anything urged to inducem be
to consent to a Committee up stairs, but what 113igoof
urged in favour of sending any Bill up stairs. U° ive
the reasons urged for sending the Bill to the Cono;riEb
up stairs was, that it might be considered by 'icor
lawyers, but he thought their Lordships quite the pre'
potent to make laws as lawyers, and the sooner the vias
sent practice of leaving the making of laws CO theme, to
altered the better. He was by no means sangtdafee be-
any great efft eta that this Bill would produce. .1' inse-
deved that the panic that now existed, and in thel,3
be
curity at present felt, no class of purchasers wan"tasse
found. For the first two years he calculated ths'ceive
Commissioners would have nothing to do but re hold
their salaries; but that was no reason why the laW 5 thipg
not be amended.—(A laugh.) He had heard o°there•
against the principle of the measure, and he was
fore entirely in its favour.
The Bill was then rad a seeend time
Lord CAMPBELLe then moved that. the Bill be °lll'
mitted.
Lord BROUG aAm said that do a°l , while he should /001
thing to defeat the Principle of the measure, he si r n"
object to some of the details in Committee, such, °
stance, as the preceding by affidavit. He evishedeold
the general rules to be made by the Commission twriod.
be open to that House to object within a limited Pe' et to
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would not ohtereed
the motion of his Noble Friend, that the Bill be rer tee
to a Select Committee, as its principle was adinitte"oei'
thought the points mentioned might be more e(), oin
ently considered in a Select Committee up stairs LP°
a Committee of the whele House. that
Lord STANLEY said that they did not requireeieet
the exceptional case which the Bill was required tc'rtee
should not be carried further than the necessity °0" tee
case demanded; but no powers should be given added
Commissioners, unless the urgency of the case den 35,05,
them. He had no desire to delay the measure unw
verity.
seeieet
The Bill was then ordered to be referred to a
Committee, to be named to-morrow.
Their Lurdships the n adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 11.
PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
On the m:;tion of Lord J. RUSSELL, that this
be read a third time, •
Mr. LAW robe to move that the Bill be read a 7:be
time this day six months. The opening sentences
ir2ol
Hon. Members speech were wholly inaudible e,
the noise occasioned by Members leaving the th9-rptjws
The main object of the Bill was the admission of '7ect
into a Christian legislature ; but the real oh.l to
of the Bill was not stated until they Cane. it
the latter clauses of the Bill—ivhich wa
very shod one. He objected to the " tong Q.s4f