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London, England, 1825-03-04 00:00:00

effectual. Another example of the same kind was supplied
in the vase of the Six Bills. lie would not believe but

that in Ireland, although there was a difference in the two
countries, yet he would noe,believe but that which Parlia-
ment passed as law, would he respected. But if he thought the
measure would be ineffectual,. still he should humbly recom-
mend their Lordships to adopt it : because heknew the con-
sequence would be—if they left this Association in existence,
that otherawould rise up of an opposite nature. If they said
that one party must associate, they could not prevent the
other from doing it. And their ordships must not suppose that
the Protestants were so insignificant in number, or that they
did not possess wealth, power, and means sufficient to support
their Association in turn. Under such circumstances as the
country would then be placed in, how could it be possible
for justice to be administered ? They must proceed upon
the great principle of putting down all Associations. Let them
try this measure first, and if it did not succeed in preserving
the tranquillity of the country, they would have the satisfac-
tion
of knowing that their best efforts had been made in the
cause. His Noble and Learned Friend had said that he should
have liked the Bill as well, or better if the Catholic Associa-
tion had been named in it. He was ready to admit that upon a
first view this appeared to be the more manly course, but after
much consideration he thought it best not to evince hostility to
any particular body by name, but to go upon the great prin-
ciple of putting down all Associatious whatever. His Lord-
ship concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
Lord KING thought that to carry this measure into a law
would be to strengthen the comparison which had so long
been supposed to exist between Ireland and ,Hell ; for what
could be more fiend-like than :to take away the defence from
the weak, and leave them unprotected from oppression.—
The .Noble Lord contended that all the statements and cases
upon which the measure was at first supported, had only been
abandoned by the Noble Earl because they were no longer
tenable. The Noble Earl had said that the conduct of the Go.
vemment had been nothing but kind and conciliatory towards
Ireland. But he saw that in the year 1323, in the County of
Tipperary, there were 497 commitments under the :Insurrec-
tion Act, and of these 462 were acquitted. For the same pe-
riod he found that the commitments in all Ireland amounted to

1707, and the acquittals to 1466, This he supposed was what
the Noble Lord called the conciliatory kindness of the Go-
vernment. The Cabinet was divided in every thing bnt in a
Bill of Penalties, and then they were always united. Upon this
occasion he feared the penal principle would as usual prove

the Strongest.
Lord TEYNHAM supported the Bill, and said, that he
thought the Government would not have done its duty if such
an Association had been suffered to continue.
Earl GROSVENOR rose, it was quite impossible for him
to agree to the proposition of the Noble Lord opposite unless
it were coupled with a proposal of conciliation towards the
Catholics of Ireland. It was his opinion that they ought to
postpone the Question until the restoration of the Catholic
Rights and Privileges ; if these were granted the Ques-
tion when brought forward would be instantly disposed of.
He was convinced that if proposals of conciliation were
offered to the Catholic Association they would tend to neutra-
lize it. He had no doubt that the Association had important
objects in view, but what these views were few could tell. If a
proposal of conciliation had been brought forward along with
the measure, the Catholic Association would have been satis-
fied. He only wished that these proposals should be made, be-
cause it was his firm belief, that unless they were restored to
their rights and privileges, and this would be the first step
towards that restitution, there would be no peace in Ireland.—
He would relate one circumstance which appeared to him very
remarkable, viz. the Noble Marquis (Wellesley) was at the
head of Ireland, and
_possessed of supreme power in that king-
dom, he had entrusted to a Noble Lord (Donoughmore), then
in the House, his right of proxy. The Catholics had no inten-
tion of endeavouring to evade the law. The Noble Earl
(Liverpool) opposite said, that it would be injudicious not
to put an extinguisher on the Catholic Association. This
extinguisher, he was of opinion, would have a contrary
effect to that which the Noble Earl anticipated. It would
render them more firm, more compact, and more decided
than before. He • would ask the .Nobla air what would I
have been the consequences if the Catholic Association had'
been in England ? What had this Association done to create
such dismay ? But we now come to the Catholic Rent :
the Noble Earl has said that there was something remarkable
In the name of Rent ; he (Lord Grosvenor) was not aware of
any thing remarkable in the appellation. The Noble Earl
alluded to a case of distraining for Rent ; but he could assure
their Lordships to the contrary ; the fact was, that no process to
that effect had been issued. There were several places where
a refusal had been given instead of the rent, but no prods ses
had been served. Even the Protestant Clergymen, in enfOrcing
the King's letter, extorted the money rather ttuin raised it by
voluntary subscriptions. The Catholic Rent certainly was nut
illegal; it was intended to protect the Catholics, in Courts of
Law, from the oppression of the Orangemen, and even the
Judges had borne testimony against them. This circumstance
was one of considerable importance, as it tepded to show to
what extent their prejudices would carry them. Ile himself
had at one time entertained doubts on the subject of the Ca-
tholic Association. lie could recollect the time when the walls
in and about the metropolis were chalked over with inscriptions
of "No Popery," "Down with the Catholics," These
inscriptions had : been effaced to make room for Day
and Martin's and Warren's Blacking, which, in his
opinion, was a very good change.—(l laugh.)—lf this
Bill had passed eight years ago, it would have produced no
sensation, and it was his candid opinion that, if it was to pass
now, it would produce no greater effect.—(blear, hear !)—How ,
many noble and distinguished families had been obliged Ito
quit the kingdom of Ireland, and migrate to foreign countries to
seek an asylum. What did this arise from but from persecution
on account of their religious principles? He could not speak,
he said, with any patience on the conduct of Ministers ; they
were the persons, to speak metaphorically, who held the thun-
der and lightning of the Administration. They were the per-
sons who induced the King to say " Aye" to the Catholics,
and " No" to the Catholics of Ireland. If the question of
Emancipation had been carried, they would have then their
" Io Pram's," and the motto would be " Nunc cst bibeisdoni,
none pulsar:dam est terrain libero perie."—(Hear„ hear!)
Lord GOSFORD said, there was not a single pettifogging
attorney in Ireland, who was not trying to- carry this bill
through. It was his firm opinion, he said, that the only way
to give peace to Ireland, was to give further concessions to the
Catholics.
Lord LONGFORD Said, that a large body of the people in
Ireland regarded the bill rather as a protective than a coercive
measure.
The Duke of SUSSEX, in addressing the [louse on a sub-
ject so important as the present, would crave their Lordships'
indulgence for any unusual warmth of expression lie might
happen to be betrayed into by the nature of the discussion.,-
He begged they would attribute it to the right cause—the in-
terest he felt in the question, and not construe it into any dis-
respect for their Lordships. It was not without diffidence he
addressed them ; but he felt he should not be discharging his
duty to the country; and supporting the liberty of the subject,
as he was bound to do, did he not express his decided opposi-
tion to the measure now before the House. He did not think
a sufficient cause had been shown for the present enactment.—
Noble Lords had on former occasions asked for additional in-
formation. In the case now before their Lordships they had
no facts to go upon. It had been stated in the Speech from
the Throne that there existed a necessity for the adoption of
fresh restrictions and new measures with respect to Ireland ;
but no case had been made out—no documents produced—
no proofs offered, of that necessity. They were called upon.'
to legislate upon the alleged notoriety of the facts. Was
hearsay evidence, which would be rejected in a Court of
Justice to be received where the liberties of 'the subject
were concerned ? Ile thought not; The propriety of
granting or refusing Catholic Emancipation constituted
no part of the present question. If the House were dis-e
posed to put down the Association, let them first inquire
into. its nature, and hear evidence, before it determined. He
would say to the House, grant the prayer of the Catholics—
temove their disabilities—anti you will have put downalle As-
sociation in the most effectual manner, or rather it would fall
to the ground of itself. Noble Lords might smile at the idea,
but it was his conviction that it would be the case were they to
pursue the course he had mentioned. The Noble Earl had ex-
pressed his apprehensions of the efforts of the Catholics. The
best of things might be abused and carried to extremes; hut
the House ought not to legislate upon possible dangers, but
positive facts. If that candle were to he placed near the cur-
tain by an aukward hand, it might set tire to it ; but was such
a possibility to induce them to say it would be better to sit in
the dark? He was prepared to admit great privileges and ad-
vantages had been granted to the Roman Catholics since the
year 17711 ; and so far from occasioning injury to the State, the
country had benefited by the concession. Ile was persuaded.
that when the Legislature granted those privileges, it was
with the intention of conceding the remaining ones, always
bearing in mind what he was not now disposed to forget—
the safety of the Constitution and religion of the .country.
Their Lordships should treat the subject as one of pure le-
gislation. If they granted the Catholics their Claims, it
should be on a conviction of their justice and propriety, al-
ways looking to the proper guards and securities to be exacted.
the
State. Cathiovlie cs
were at a
The concessions to which he had alluded were granted to
msuornroluenntdoefdgrbeyatenaenmd
enemies, and
danger to the
courage were beginning anti our name and
to-sink in the struggle : but the effect
of those' Well-timed concessions had been to strengthen and
combine the sinking energies of the country. Our army and
navy were recruited with brave and daring men, and the British
fla was again enabled to float triumphant- through the contest,
ansi British glory was once more untarnished. .Looking to the

immense force necessary ttbe kept up in Ireland, lie would put
the question—whether it tould not be better in those days of
economy to grant concessie to the Catholics; and by .uniting
them with us, enable us toemploy that force elsewhere, or re-.
duce it altogether? It waild be better to rely on the' good
feeling and unanimity of tic country, than upon a large and
expensive standing army. The laws against Roman Catholics
had been enacted for poliical reasons, and he doubted not
they were •wise ones. Bit he could not see that the same
necessity existed for their continuance as for their enact-
ment, At that time there was a Sovereign who bad, by a
bold measure, been. driv.enfrorn the country 14 misgoverned
for his arbitrary projects. He had retired to Ireland, where
he found protection and 2ssistance. This excited a reason-
able jealousy against the roman Catholics of that day, and
the Legislature had to proect the Protestant succession and re-.
ligion by force of arms, ant fight with a party avowedly under
the influence of a Catholic ilonarch and the Pope. The conse-
quence and authority of the Pope were now no more. We our-
selves had raised bins up frim the abject state to which he had
been reduced by Buoriapate. We had set him up—was it to
be afraid of him.? - the House would take off the remaining
restrictions which affected tie Catholics, they would unite that
body to the Sate ; and, sounited, they might bid defiance to
the world. .He was anxints we should take care of our own
liberties; if we did not, IR one else would. His conscientious
vote should ha given against the Bill now before their Lord-
ships, reserving to himself he right of watching aver its further
progress, and opposing it is every stage.
Lord CA VISE u tt y supported the Bill.
Earl .G nosy Es op. exphined.
Lord Kisc.sTO.N stated that a fact had come to his know-
ledge worthy the attention of the House: Ile was on the
Bench in Ireland when a caarge was preferred against a person
for distraining a sheep for Cat folic rent, and upon inquiry it
appeared that the sheep had been seized for straying to the pre,
mimes of a person who had no concern with the Roman Catholic
Question.—(Hear!) • ..
The Marquis of LANSDOSITN considered the statement
just-made by a Noble Lord was proof that the House were
in the dark upon the real -conduct of the Roman Catholic
Association. It was, in itself, sufficient to induce their Lord-
ships to make inquiry.' The Noble-. Marquis, on the general
subject before the House. was convinced that the state of the
Catholics of Ireland required the consideration of Parliament.
Ile was bound to look co the provisions of the bill, and ask
himself whether, if it were passed, it would be a remedy for
the existing evil. He: was bound to conclude that it would be
ineffectual. -Ile did not find there' was any intention to put
down meetings of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. On the
subject of Rent he would say it was impossible to prevent
money from being given and received. The purposes of the
Catholic religion could not be carried on without subscription,
and it was impossible to stop it. Without troubling the House
on the object of the law, he was justified in contending that
the evil they attempted to defeat would not be defeated. The
root of the evil was in the state of society in Ireland: The
people of Ireland were denied the rights of the Constitution,
and mixed as they had been with those who did enjoy the privi:
leges of the Constitution, expressions of • disappointment and
displeasure would naturally break out. The heart would feel,
and the pulse beat. It was vain to expect tranquillity in that
unfortunate country until the cause -of complaint is removed.
A people, equal to any upon the face of the earth, claimed a
share in the benefits afforded by a free Constitution. They
might be described in the language of Milton, who said—
" Think ye, Lords and Commons, what it is you are to govern
—a nation not equalled on earth, acute to inwent, subtle inconversatiorr,7•and not void of capacity to accomplish any ob-
ject.'.' Such: were.the.people of Ireland, and the Noble-Marquis
called upon the House to redress their complaint. The occur-
rence in another part of the Legislature within, the last forty-
eight hours. ought to induce the ,HOUse to pause before they
passed a 'Bill restricting -the libeity.-of the Irish population.
The Noble Marquis toaluded,- by aayinglie should rely on the
measure to which he. had, alluded, as the means of restoring
the people- of.-Ireland to peace, happineas'and the blessings of
the Constitotion.
The Earl of HARROWRY supported the 'Bill. What
would be the state-of Ireland with a rival Parliament ?He
to provide for the -tranquillity of Ireland, The Noble Earl
wished the to p ass , because it was the duty of Parliament
was also CCaitous of passing this Bill, because it was necessary
for the benefit of the Roman Catholics themselves. The Ca-
, tholies ought to rejoice. that they had nn opportunity of proving.
I aliat although they had been misled they were still loyal, and
ready to submit to, the law. That -.conduct would shew they
I were entitled to participate in the b*Ssings of the Constitution.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House '"
vided, when. there appeared
For the Second Reading

Against it

- - 1411
- 44

Majority - - - 102
-The Bill was then read a second time, and the House Ad
journed at a QUARTER PAST TWELVE.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

SHIP CANAL FROM THE ENGLIifI TO THE

BRISTOL; CHANNEL.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE obtained leave to bring in a Bill
for making a Ship Canal from the English Channel to the Bris-
tol Channel. It was brought in and read a first time. On the
question that it be read a second time,
Sir 'l'. LETHBRIDGE then said, he wished to state shortly
to the House the nature-and objects of the Bill. The project
of connecting the Bristol Channel with the English Channel
had been undertaken' by men who were perfectly aware of the
great national advantage of the measure. It was a speculation
which was not likely to fail for want of the means to carry it
into execution, and could not be classed with those delusive
projects-of which they daily heard mention, and which were
his view highly injurious to the community at large.. The
sum required was 2,000,0001., and the whole of that sum had
been subscribed. The proposed Canal would pass through a
line of country, a part of which was poor land, but the rest
very rich. The property to be purchased for this purpose be-
longed to 1,000 different persons, of these 918 had been ap-
plied to,• out of which number only 50 were opposed .to the
project. It would pass through or near several towns, and
would, therefore, be productive of much local as well
as' national ad: ant; The channel (which would receive
ships of 200 tons burthen) would commence at Seaton Bay (be-
tween the Start Point and Portland Race) in Devonshire, and
would run into Bridgewater Bay, in - the Bristol Channel. At
each end would be formed a safe and convenient harbour, so
that both in the English as Well as in the Bristol Channel, ves-
sels would have additional .shelter in bad weather. It would
also afford additional facilities to our commerce with Ireland,
and would prevent the -delay and danger which attended the
navigation sound the Land's End. The ground had been ex-
amined by able engineers, and also by that skilful and expe-
rienced officer, Capt. Nicholls, who concurred in opinion with
them, that the thing was practicable, and would be of the
greatest national advantage.
Sir J. YORKE threw it out for the consideration of the
le thought,
constructer!
for be 2
House, whether this would not diminish our coasting trade,
and thereby in part remove the nursery of our seamen, who
now acquired skill and experience in the difficult navigation
round the I.acnoduslEb nodt .
be
I si,oleBoo,,otohOlt the canal
.
• Mr. DICKINSON conceived that the projected canal would
a harbours
be great national advantage.
Mr. ROBERTSON concurred with _the last speaker, and
obserVed, that it would "also prevent the great loss of life and
property, which frequently h.appened in the navigation round
the Land's-end.

~ •
Sir 'l'. LETH BRIDGI,I said, that the canal could not lessen
our coasting trade, as no. vessel could commence or terniinate
her voyage in it ; every ship would therefore. require in her sea
voyage the same number of sailors as before.' With respect to
T estimatew was,.
s ,wialos
w1e,y1e7r5,,00 calculated 01.
Estimated
ti
werele c xnPoctn cael 'wt.:hi yes ° correctrgii nal
;
2,000,0001. would cover -the whole expence. But whether it
that
cost two millions or three millions was of little importance when
its general national advantages were taken into consideration.--
The petition was ordered to he read a second time.
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL-ROAD.
Mr. S. RICE, in presenting a Petition from Drogheda, in
favour of the Manchester and Liverpool Rail-road, assured the
House that he spoke the sense of every commercial body, aye,
of every merchant and trader in Ireland, when he stated that
the establishment of that Railroad would be of the greatest
advantage to the trade and commerce of Ireland----(Hear, hear I).
The Petition was read and ordered to be printed.
MISCELLANEOUS.
Mr. C. CALVEIIT presented several Petitions against the
South London Water Works Bill.
1
of
measure.
At Ettc it quo y presented a Petition
from Leith against
the Leith Dock Bill.
Mr. DUNDAS was anxious for a full and fair discussion
the easure. • - - '
•
Bill should ge to a-second
Mr. A REH cnom BY said he was himself desirous that the.
reading.—The
Vett t
ion was ordered
.40 be. printed....
Boston, Lin-
Mr. 1-0.-artycoTE presented- aPetition fr'orn
Lord J onN P
•dered to lie on the table.
- colnshire,f-in favour of the . Catherine's Docks' lilt.— Or-
Company Bill, which was read a first time.
Petition from the
Mr. Alderman l'HoursoN presented a
Water Works'
Ward of Cheap, in faVettr of the London Works'
Company.
I r red from the sus-
, The Marquis of 'l'
IT4RoY brought up the Aletropolitan Fish
. AvlsTocK Was
i adi"'alit fees.
tody of the Sergeantat Artns, having Patti
Lord Graves be ex-
i Sir T. LETHBRIDGE moved that
' cused.from the order
made .that he should be taken in custody

by the Sergeant at Arms, in consequente of the illness of his
eldest son.—Granted. _
Mr. S. WORTLEY postponed the second reading •of the
Gome Bill till Monday next.
Lord A. Hint presented a Petition from Downpatrick, in
favour of the Catholic Claims.
Lord LYNDSAY presented a Petition from Wigan against
the Assessed Taxes.
Mr. Di c Krx sots presented a Petition from Somerton against
the House and Window lax. Another from Glastonbury, in
favour of the County Courts Bill. Another from South Brent
against the Assessed Tuxes. • • -
Mr. C. DAWSON presented a Petition 11•rom Dublin in favour
of Provincial Banks; and a similar Petition from London-
derry.—Ordered to be printed.
31r. 11. Davis presented a Petition from St. Stephen's,
Bristol, against the House and Window Tax.—Ordered to be
printed.
Mr. KENNEDY presented a Petition from the Notaries Pub-
lic of Kilmarnock against the Attornies Tax.
Mr. C. CALVERT presented a Petition from St. Saviour's,
Southwark, in favour of the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that the Repeal of the Assessed
Taxes would dimish the patronage of the Crown, and save the
country from the very vexatious visits of the tax-gatherer.—
The taking off other duties did not always reduce the price of
the article.
Sir R. WILSON objected to the Assessed Taxes as being of
an inquisitorial nature.
After an observation from Mr. CALVERT, the petition was
ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. D. BROWNE presented a petition from certain inbabi:.
tants of Ireland, in favour of Provincial Banks.—Ordered to
be printed.
Sir W. INC LEB r presented a petition from Ilolbeach against
the Assessed Taxes.
Col. Panm ER presented a petition from St. Michael's, Bath,
against the House and Window Tax.—Ordered to be printed.
Captain MABERLY presented a petitios from Northampton
in favour of the County Courts Bill.
'Mr. IILT.‘II.I presented a petition from Londonderry against
the Catholic Association Bill. The lion. Member corrected
some statement respecting the appropriation of the Catholic
Rent in that City.
After a few words from Sir G. HILL and Mr. HUME, the
Petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUM} begged leave to move the discharge of the no-
tice relative to the t rish Church, which stood for the 10th of
March, and in lieu thereof to substitute the notice of a motion
for dispensing with the Sinking Fund.—(A laugh.) -
ORANGE ASSOCIATIONS.
Mr. BROWNLOW presented a Petition from some Mem-
bers of an ,Orange Association in Ireland, praying for leave to
be heard in answer to the aspersions thrown out against them.
After a few words from Lord AnTisostrz and Mr. C. H.
HU TCIIINSON,
Mr. A BERCRO3I BY expressed his gratification, that from
this moment the Orange Societies in Ireland were to be consi-
dered extinct. If it was the wish of these Societies that every
thing relative to them should be made known, he had no ob-
jection to the Petition being laid before the Committee sitting
above stairs on the affitirs of Ireland. But if that step should
lead to the revival of antnosities, let the blame lie at the door
of those who sought to have their objects and conduct investi-
gated, when the peace of the country required that both should
sink into oblivion. The pass word of these Associations he
never.considered a real cause of objection to their formation to
continuance, but the tendency which their existence had or
keep the public divided.
. Mr. PEEL had signified, the other evening, his, unabated
opposition to the Catholic Claims; but whatever he thought or
felt on that subject, no man had heard with greater satisfaction
the intimation given by the Hon. Member for Armagh, tha
after the passing of the law now before the Parliament,
Orange Societies were totally to cease. He highly applauded
their determination not to enter into a contest with the Legis-
lature, but to submit to the declared sense of. Parliament, and
act in conformity not only to the letter but the spirit of the law,
The petition referred- to the terms in which lie had spoken of
the Orangemen in 1814, but no language of his could be more
flattering to them than what the -Honourable Baronet the
Member for Westminster had made use of or. Tuesday evening
last. At the same time lie thought no degree of loyalty could
Compensate for the evil tendency of such associations, of
which the very calumnies that were uttered against them af-
forded a convincing proof. In name and principle, therefore,
he trusted they would be abolished as well as in law. He took
that opportunity to state, that the reason why many persons of
rank and connected with office had continued attached to
these Societies, after the Bill which passed that House two
years back, was for the sole purpose of exerting their influence
to prevent irritation among the inferior members. He thought,
however, that every person holding 'Alice was bound to dissolve
all connection with Orange Associations.
Air. ABERCRO SIBY explained.
Mr. BROWN LOW did not say that Orange Associations
were at present extinct; but he believed he might confidently
say, that as soon as the law was passed, those Associations
would come within its spirit and cease to exist.
After a few words from Lord A r.TitonrE, the Petition was
received, and ordered to be referred to the Committee above
stairs.
Mr. A BERCROM BY presented a Petition from the Catho-
lics of Bandon against the Bill for suppressing Associations.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD presented petitions from theßoman
Catholics of Killeen, and another place in the County of Kerry,
against the Unlawful Associations' Bill. The Hon. Member
then adverted to the petition presented by the Hon. Member
for Armagh (Mr. Brownlow) on Tuesday evening, respecting
the persecutions endured by a schoolmaster in Kerry from a
Catholic Priest, and begged the House would suspend its opi-
nion on the subject till he should be able to obtain specific in-
formation as to the alleged facts.
Mr. BROWNLOW should be happy to find that the state-
ments in that petition were not correct ; but, before he pre-
sented it, Mr. Gordon, whose name was familiar to the House,
had inquired into the facts, and assured him he was justified in
laying the petition befere the House.
APOTHECARIES' BILL.
Mr. BROUGHAM brought in a Bill to amend the 55th of
the late King respecting Apothecaries' Licences.—Read a first
time.

On the motion that it be read a second time to-morrow,
Mr. BROUGHAM said he wished to correct a misrepresen-
tation which had gone forth when he moved for leave to bring
in the present Bill. It was stated that he had spoken in terms
of disparagement of the University of Trinity college, Dub-
lin ; he was, however, in the recollection of an lion. Member
connected with that University,-that he said nothing of the Uni-
versity of Dublin but what was most respectful.
Mr. CROKER bore testimony to the accuracy of the state-
ment which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had just made,
nor was he himself ever more surprised than at the misrepre-
sentation alluded to, except to find that he himself was made to
approve of censure alleged to have been cast on his Alma Mater.
Ms. HUME said it was erroneous to suppose that any of
the Colleges in Scotland, except those of Aberdeen and St.
Andrews, granted degrees without personal examination. lie
had also the pleasure to inform the Douse, that the 3lareschal
College of Aberdeen had lately resolved to reform itself in that
particular, and he trusted the alteration would be extended to
the College of St. Andrews likewise.
Mr. BROUGHA3I thought nothing could be more satisfac-
ectlamt to in
ttioireytihearnn b
etlri eforfallcit 0 jnutrsot
sem, efonrtiounnefdortbuyniltitieslyHtohtei F;
the
Aber.for
il
ei kn- e
itnh ersetaolri kt
y ino
nt lliye
afat
tbaleeh,
a" share so' of the Es
tell gi nI
Tlb au ~r gwh hi
deer and St. Andrews.
Mr. P. GLIENFELL moved for Returns of the number of
Ships which had entered the Port of London for the last year,
and also of those which had entered the several Docks during
the same period.
ASSESSED TAXES.
Mr. MABERLY presented a Petition from the Parish of'
Marylebone for a Repeal of the Assessed Taxes.
Mr. 31ABERLY then rose, pursuant to the notice he had
given to move the Repeal of the Assessed Taxes, and assured
f.he douse that he believed if . the whole country were polled,
11y out of every 100 persons would be found in favour of the
measure. However eloquently the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had 'stated his Financial Plan to the House
a few days ago,. he (Mr. Maberly) thought he could show that
the Right Hon. Gentleman's measures were at variance with
his own \
principles. If the people were ten times better off
than they were, in his opinion they had at least a right to be
heard in support of their prayer for a repeal of the Assessed
Taxes. In bringing the subject before the House, he should
not attempt the arduous task of following the Right Hon. the
. Chancellor of the Exchequer through the details of his state-
ment—but briefly show, first, the nature and bearing of the
Bight Hon. Gentleman's measures; second, that those Inca-
surer t
wthhieehbneset
tf3oirt.ativloipa.- st
iuorne s; ftohlilrodwl
yin, ghlei i;hoowonl
dp ronnctirpalsets
berly) proposed with that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
and, fourthly, show that a greater reduction of taxes might be
effected than was now contemplated. The first article on which
the duty was reduced was Hemp, but as 15 per cent. still re-
mained on its importation, and that he considered almost a
prohibition on a raw material, which, to encourage our own
i industry, ought to be admitted on the easiest terms. The
next article was Coffee, whichonoumb might 1
e Gentleman
b econsidered
and was not in such general use as to render the remission of
' the duty a relief to the public. The next article was Wine,
which, although the Right Honourable
inge-
niously endeavoured to convert into a necessary, instead of
e enlan
h a
had
luxury,
luxury,—but he (Mr. Maberly) considered that it was the
. surrender of 230,0001. per annum to the affluent alone,—and"
yet to prevent a large loss of Revenue, it was calculated that

everry person who before drank one bottle, would now drink
two. The next article was British Spirits, and here the Right
Honourable Gentleman laid great stress on the expediency
of preventing smuggling,—which certainly made a deep im
pression on the House. But there were many other articles,
the remission of the duty on which would produce the same
effect, without demoralizing the peOple.- Last year they had -
legislated by halves when they reduced the duty on spirits in
Ireland and Scotland to 2s. 6d. and kept it at 10e. 6d. in Eng-
land. They had merely removed the sniugglere.from the moun-
tains to the 'tanks of the Tweed,—and even now there was a
duty of 6s. per gallon on English, above Irish or Scotch
Spirits. To be effectual the duties ought to be equalized. The
next article was Rum,-but upon that he should have a future op-
portunity of stating his opinion. He now came to the Assessed -
Taxes, which the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to repeal, but
although themost vexatious, perhaps, were given up, good was
not done to the extent required.' The next article was iron ;.
and he only wished that Hemp had been laced on the same.-
footing as to duty with that commodity. lie should now ask,
would not the remission of 'duty on Tea have given more re-
lief than-of that on wine and spirits. Would not tea too be
paid for by our manufactures as well as wine, either directly
or indirectly ? The one, however, tended to demoralize, the
other to the comfort of the people—the one would give general,
the other partial relief. Another article to which he should
allude, was Tobacco. It yielded annually a revenue of
2,500,0001., and was much more an • article of -necessity than ,
spirits, while its' increased consumption would occasion an-
increased elportation of manufictures in return. If smug-
gling was an evil, there was no branch of trade in which it
existed to a -greater extent than in the tobacco trade, or in
which it would be more surely destroyed by a reduction of
duty. Other articles
,be might also mention—soap, candles,
hides, tallow, indigo, and cotton wool, on all of which. the .
duties were enormous, anti the reduction of which would be
,mere judicious than those proposed by the Right Hon. the
Chancellor ' of the Exchequer. He should now refer to the
main object of his motion, the Repeal of the whole of the
Assessed Taxes. Some persons only demanded a surrendei
of the Window and House Duties, but if the whole were aban-
doned the country would get rid of one entire establishment,
and save an annual expence of about 300,0001.. There would
then remain but the Customs, the Excise,. the Stainps, and the
Post Office, as the collection of the Land Tax might be trans-
ferred to one of those establishments The people were anxious
to get rid of the Assessed Taxes altogether ; .and in support of
the correctness of the judgment, be might to quote a speech of
a Noble Lord in 1823, in the other House of Parliament. The •
Honourable Gentleman then read a passage from a speech, we
believe of the Earl of Liverpool. stating the obvious relief
which a remission of direct taxes afforded to the public. ' The
duties en IVindows and Houses were a partial property.
tax amounting to twenty or thirty per cent. For the average
of the next three years • he believed the Right ,Honourable-
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had estimated.
the Sinking Fund at 5,600,0001. per annum. He, however.
was prepared to demonstrate that the Sinking Fund was a per-'
fect fallacy. - From the year 1715, when first introduced by Sir
Robert Walpole to the present time, the Public Debt, instead
of being reduced, had increased. In 1816 it was 868 millions',
and three years ago when a Noble Lord (the Marquis of Lon-
donderry) made a Financial Statement for the then. Chancellor
of the Exchequer, lie alleged that a Sinking Fund of-five mil-
lions was indispensable to the Public Credit, and to pay off
the above sum. Fourteen days afterwards, however, the same'
Noble Lord came down, and under the plea of disposing of
what he called a dead weight, added an annuity of two mil-
lions eight hundred thousand pounds, or a capital of 60 mile
lions to the 868 millions previously existing. Subsequently,
one of the very first acts of the Right Hon. Gentleineri opposite
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when he came into office,
was to bargain with the Bank for that annuity, and absolutely
to thus give up two millions out
.of the five millions a-year of
the Sinking Fund, which Ministers had declared to be a sacred
appropriation. What then was the fact, that adding the above
60 millions to the 868 millions existing in 1816, the National
Debt had since actually increased twelve millions, and now
amounted to 868 millions. It was manifest that greater advan-
tages would be derived from giving tip the Sinking Fund in re-
duced taxes, than by retaining it under the idea of paying--off
our burdens. The energy and industry of the country,im-
pelled by the remission since the war of twenty millions a-year
of direct taxes, had enabled Government to reduce- the Five
and Four per Cents. and save a great sum annually in interest
of the Debt. He should, on those grounds, propose that the
Sinking Fund be relinquished ; and if not the whole of
the Assessed Taxes, at least that of the Window a'.s.d
house duties should be remitted. He gave credit to the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite for the uprightness and honesty of
his intentions in the course he pursued. He was satisfied. he
believed that he was doing the best for -the country, and be
certainly did not by his measures seek the popularity at his
command.• All he (Mr. Maberly) claimed, was to have the
same justice done to his motives on the present occasion. After
apologizing for detaining the House so long, the Hon. Mem-
ber stated that the whole amount of Assessed Taxes which lie
should move to remit, was 3,970,0001. per annum. Ile had
divided them into a series of resolutions : in the first of which
were embraced the ditties on windows and houses, in order that
those who disapproved of repealing the others now, might have
an opportunity of voting for their remission. Before he so;
down, he must observe, that notwithstanding all the praise any'
support which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's propositions had received in that House, outside its walls;
he found nothing of the sort. The Hon. Gentleman then move'
the first resolution.
Mr. LE YCESTER seconded the motion, and in an inaudible
tone of voice enlarged on the positive and negative advantages'
which its adoption would confer on the public. He did not,
however, mean to question the plan of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, than which nothing could be more enlightened,
more word's, of support; but he would abolish the Sinking
Fund, and with it the Assessed Taxes. There weretwo oast
of discharging debt—paying it off, and increasing the wealth of
the debtors ; and he conceived the latter was the best mode fot"
the nation to pursue. A very general feeling existed again St.
the Corn Laws, anti he for one wished to see them altered,. but
lie thought that could not be done till the Assessed Taxes were
repealed.
Mr. IIEATHCOTE should support the motion within cer-
tain limits, because he was sure the country deserved it. He
shOuld not, however, attempt to abolish the Sinking Fund, be
cause if the plan continued, it went to pay off our debt; while,
should war occur, it was a means of enabling the count*" toe't,
meet the inquiry without laying on an additional farthing
taxes.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did /I°C
think it necessary to trouble the House at any length in or
posing the motion of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. He woo
confess, however, he was somewhat surprised to find that the
sole ground upon which the remission of the Assessed. Te,
was proposed, was the Abolition of the Sinking, Fund. A':
.though the Member for Aberdeen had that very 'night give'
notice of a distinct proposition of the same nature for next
Thursday, it did seem strange, that without having laid all
basis in the first instance, to prove the expediency of •surren'
Bering the Sinking Fund, the Honourable Gentle Man (Mr;
Maberly) should proceed to argue a point which -involve('
a decision of that question. His plan at the -same time was
not brought forward without some ingenuity ; for by taking.
the stems of it separately, he hoped to catch the support 0;
those Members to parts of it who might be averse to adopt
it in the aggregate. Yet he argued the subject, and, indeeot
confined his proposition to a repeal of the whole of the
sensed Taxes--laying peculiar stress upon the Window and
House Duties. By the way, too, there was another motion
specifically directed against the latter taxes, to come on in
few days at the instance of the Hon. Member for Westminster'
The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Maberly) had done him she
honour to say, that lie believed him to act solely With&view ""
the benefit of the country, and he (the Chancellor of the J.
chequer) was equally willing to admit that no consideration of
popularity, or connected with a general election, influenced 1,1,e
feelings in submitting this motion to the House.
Honourable Gentlemen, though he disapproved -of his plan'
had not contested any of his principles. He did not even sIIJ
that any of the duties proposed to be remitted should be re;
tained, but by getting rid of the Sinking Fund he wished to be
able to superinduce a total repeal of the whole of the Assess&
Taxes on the plan already laid before Parliament. He sawn;
however, that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was I'",„
nrconsistenttiele hit
would
oureducinghalfpenny
p fifteener pound,
todut:bo,l,s
ooufnttedhe
Hemp ; and it was certainly true, that at the price of
per
c e
an:*
aaslotowebrepeexrpeeecntteadgetlttiatatntlimet prrioiwce
nopfphearenlell4'
from the increased demand, would rise, and then the halfpel
ptheartposuumnd.
He was however given to understand by those who, as 1,.."
as their own interest was concerned, understood the 0...1
ject well, that the reduction made was considered gr_ft-D
boon, and had given satisfaction, The next article ‘r,
which the Honourable Gentleman found fault was COuee'l
which he asserted was not in great use among the public. -„a
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know on what gratt`fe
the assertion was advanced,—bilt he believed Coffee. was in vela
general consumption, anti but for the high duty on it, Well
have been much more so. Since the duty was raised, the can"
sumption had no doubt fallen off, and it was a principle ofeteet
urged on the other side, and which he himself admitted, tr,";
the criterion of a tax being too high, was to find that it J."
peded consumption. Nor was coffee, as the Hon: Member Or
posed, a luxury to the
poor, but an article of necessity. 4
these reasons, because it wars giving the poor a cheap
wholesome beverage; because, m a mercantile sense, it
.1)!-:.;
motet commerce: and because it could be raised in the AY:a
Indies by less severe slave labour than sugar, he had redofrr-o
the duty on coffee. Here the gm Gentlemp.tnlked of Winec

41113017, but while ha still maintained the contrary opinion,
to a partial extent, ke asked why if it were a luxury.the-infe-
. rior orders of society should not be enabled to taste it as well
as the rich. But the same principle applied to wine as to
coffee, and in truth year after year a reduction of the duty had
been demanded by the Gentlemen on his (Mr. Maherley's) side
of the House. Peculiar fault had next been found with the
reduction of the duties on spirits. But the Hon. Member must
forget the. return of the trade in spirits. When the duties in
Ireland and Scotland'were reduced was it not plain that the
duty here could not be retained at its former height. SO long
as was practical he had abstained from touching it, but it was
now imperative to remove some thing of the anomaly and its
attendant evils, BeSides, by the Act of Union the Irish distil-
ler had a right to send his spirits here, and why, if so permit-
ted,
should not the English distiller be allowed to sell his spirits
under nearly similar circumstances. It was indeed impossible
to proceed in Such a circle of error. But the Hon. Gentleman
laid, why not ged rid of all the errors ? He (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) wished to do so, but he could not effect it
and-every thing else, at once.—(Hear, hear !)—With respect to
tobacco, it did not-appear to him that to prevent smuggling
etectually, the duty on it ought to be reduced less than
one half. The whole amount of that duty was three millions
and a half a year, and if half of it were surrendered, there must,
taking into account increased consumption, be at first a loss of
*quarter., Now the whole surplus which there was to surrender
did not exceed 1,500,0001.—end out of that he had shown the
absolute necessity of remitting 750,0001. of' duties on spirits—so
that the balance was but 750,0001.—and a reduction of half on
Tobacco would swallow up better than the whole orthat sum.—
Rot, said the Hon Member, the duty on Tea was 100 per cent.,
and it certainly was high enough. The Revenue derived from
Tea-wai about three millions yearly, and to lower the duty to
Prevent smuggling, it should be reduced to three quarters. The
Right Hon. Gentleman was proceeding, when
Mr. MADE RLY rose to explain.—He had not recommend-
ed the duties on tobacco and tea to be remitted. He only point-
ed otit how the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
"light have applied his own principles for extending trade with
°lore advantage to the country, than in selecting the articles he
did,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that if he had mistaken that part of his argument, still it was
granted that the 750,0001. on spirits, and the 250,0001. on
Assessed Taxes, ought to be repealed, and they left but a
balance of 500,0001. to be otherwise disposed of. Now, with
respect to the Assessed Taxes, much as had been said of
his desire to retain them, in order to promote the commerce
of the country, but he recollected that exactly half their
amount, three millions and a half, had been remitted since
the. year:.lß2l.=:-(Hear !)—And of the ten millions remitted
witiliowthe last four years, one-third were Assessed 'razes.—
Vut, said the Hon. Gentleman, only get rid of the Sinking Fund
and.there will by no difficulty in surrendering the rest of the
Assessed Taxes. Re in the same breath however, denied that
the Sinking Fund-exceeded three millions, and had used
great many hard words to prove the position. What then'
would he do ? He would remit the Assessed Taxes, amount-

ing to 3i millions, to meet which, on his own shewing, there
Were but three millions of Sinking Fund, and thus leave the
country 500,000/. in debt. .It was, however, asserted by the
first authorities, and by none more cogently than by a great

plan—he meant Mr. Ricardo, who certainly was a great man—
that there always ought to be a Sinking Fund as a surplus.—
The Honourable Member for Wareham had admitted the same
principle. Would then the Honourable Gentleman destroy all
--surplus? For his part he thought the surplus a Sinking Fund,
he did not care about the riame, too much, and he should oppose
the Resolutions now before the House. lie might be permit-
ted perhaps to observe in conclusion, that although the Hon.
Gentleman stated his plans to be received with disfavour out-
side the walls of the House, yet from all he himself had heard
on the subject; he believed the very reverse to be the fact—and
he was satisfied that hereafter it would appear that he provided
on the principles Most conducive to the interests of every class
Of the people, and of the empire at large,—(Hear, hear, hear !)
Mr. CA LCRAFT expressed the extreme satisfaction he felt
at hearing the statement of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on MOnday last, but should, nevertheless, vote
for the first of his lion. Friend's resolution for remitting the
Window and House Duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
.unquestionably taken, since his entrance into office, a most en-
lightened and liberal course for the advantage of the nation,
yet he (Mr. Calcraft) conceived that a large portion of the
Sinking Fund applied: in the repeal of direct taxes, would do
more service than in reducing the capital of the debt. They
. were now, after ten years of peace, paying upwards of 50 mil-
lions of taxes—and was that state of things to continue till we
were -plunged in another war ? The Sinking Fund appeared
to him a mere temptation to expence and restless
l ambition.—
Per a few more observations relative to the Wine Trade, the
ienourable Member concluded by supporting the first of the
egnlution s. •
44r JOHN WROTTESLY expreksed himself in favour of
the
repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes. He was sorry
at th Right- Hon. Gentleman had been driven to reduce the
duiy on spirit's. He admitted, however, that it was matter of
necessity, although he deplored it. He gave his vote for the
repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes, because he thought
it could be done without detriment to the country.
Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the motion, lie could
assure the Chancellor of the Eishequer, that Petitions were
in course of preparation throughout the city of London, com-
plaining of the measures projected by the Right lion. Gentle-
than. A general desire prevailed for the removal of the House
Duty, and he was sure the table would be loaded with petitions
to- That effect.

Mr. kl USKISSON thought that the principles of the Hon.
Gentlemen opposite would lead to the very reasonable propo-
sition in the existing state of England. of removing.all taxation
whatever. As to the motion of the Honourable Member for
lbingdon (Mr. Moberly), he really thought it would have
been more fair had he made the extinction of the sinking
Fund the subject of it, rather than involve that question in that
which he. had in fact brought before the House ; viz. the remis-
sion of taxes to an amount which of necessity drew the Sinking
Fund after it. He, however, understood the Parliamentary
tactic's of the Hon. Member's motion, which was obviously,
directed to obtain the votes of those Gentlemen who were hos-
tile to the Assessed Taxes, in favour of the destruction of the
sinking Fund. The real question was, whether it was better
to remove the Assessed Taxes, or other taxes which had been
proposed by his Right Hon. Friend. Upon this subject he really
bad thought that the enlightened and philosophical views of his
Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) upon the
principles of taxation; had convinced every one who heard
Mul. The evils of smuggling had been so clearly and feelingly
exposed by his Right Hon. Friend that he did think no doubt
could remain upon the mind of any Hon. Gentleman as to the
Preference of his system over the reduction of direct taxes.
As to direct taxes, he considered where they could be levied
Without interference with the liberty of the subject, that there
was not a less objectionable mode of raising revenue. Could
the Income Tax ever be freed from that objection he thought
it would be the best tax they could have. Did Hon. Gentlemen
think that no good had been done by the removal of taxation
upon manufactures, and the productive industry of the na-
tion ? Such hail been the effect of the reduction of the Silk
Duty, that the manufacturers had more demands upon them
than they were able to satisfy. There was not raw material
enough in the country, and he believed there was work for
60,000 men more than it was possible to execute. Nothing could
be so wise or beneficial to the country than a diminution of the
taxes upon consumption. They had been told that direct
taxation drove many people out of the country to reside in
foreign parts. This he did not believe, because when he
looked to the countries of the Continent, he found direct taxa-
tion carried to a far greater extent than in England. In Hol-
land, where greater personal liberty was enjoyed than in any
other country in Europe except England, there were taxes not
only on houses, but on doors, and even furniture. A man could
not add a piece of furniture to his house there without having it
estimated and taxed. People went abroad because they could
drink their wine cheaper, and therefore he thought the reduc-
tion of duty on that article was the measure best calculated
to bring our countrymen back again to England. Upon this
topic of wine, he confessed he had heard with some surprise
Of the conduct of the wine merchants of the metropolis. lie
Understood that the duty upon stock in hand, which it was
Proposed by his Right Honourable Friend to remit to the wine
Merchants, it was their intention to put in their own pockets
and to charge upon the public. If this should he their serious
intention, he should certainly suggest to the House and his
Right Hon. Friend to revise his intention, and not return the
duty upon stock in hand to the wine-merchants.—(Hear, hear !)
In that case about 31)0,1)001. would go into the Exchequer, and
thus would the public in reality benefit to the full extent of the
reduction of tax.—( Hear !)
Blr. WILSON expressed his surprise at the unconstitu-
tronal proposition of the Right'llon. Gentleman, to visit upon
the wine merchants the consequence of the rise in the price
(*wine. The reason of that rise was the demand which had
%
considerably increased upon the remission of a duty which
d hitherto deterred every one from purchasing that article.
With respect to the question as to the Sinking Fund, he should
reserve himself upon that subject for the motion of the lion.
Member for Aberdeen. He should rather leave the destruc-
tion, of that fund to be proposed by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, in whom he thought they were entitled to place confi-
dence.
Lord ALTHORP said the question for the House would be
Whether there really was a Sinking Fund to the amount of five
If it turned out that there was, then it would he for
tAe-Houte to consider whether they would not do with that
whattiley did with the remainder of the seven millions, which
sots be understood to be the supposed surplus. With regard
the-taxes
which jt was proposed to repeal, the removal of
. .