The Sun.
London, England, 1836-06-28 00:00:00

peered to have but little influence on his actions. The Noble always been in the enjoyment of the local government. of the
I
Lord might have appropriately said of himself as Antony said Corporations. But the opposition was not to the people exer-
to Ventidins— cising corporate privileges, but to the exclusive principle on
" I will allow you license of free speech, which they would by this measure exercise it. It was not
4P 0 • only the exclusion, but the mode of exclusion ; and it was
But for your life no word I like not." that which the amendments were intended to remedy.
The Noble Earl who sat upon the benches at the upper part The Noble Viscount (Melbourne) and the Noble Baron
of the House said that the question might be more safely had agreed that the Corporations must be given over to the
considered next year. All the sturdiness exhibited by the Roman Catholics, because political power was given to them
Noble Earl about the principle came then to this. " You by that Act which was called Catholic Emancipation. That
shan't have my principle," said the Noble Earl and his Act gave the right of sitting in that House, the right of elect-
cheerers, " You shan't have my principle this year, but you ing to which they before possessed ; and by the Act of 1793
may have it next year."—(Hear, and laughter.) The Noble the Catholics were eligible to many of the offices of the State.
Lord opposite said, "If the Cabinet is disposed to follow my But the ;present Bill would put the Government of all the'
advice, we may altimately come to an agreement." That was towns in Ireland almost to a man exclusively in the hands of
another branch of the principle of postponement. But would Roman Catholics. The Noble Baron had illustrated his sub-
that " ultimate perhaps" satisfy the people of Ireland more ject by a great variety of anecdotes, through which he did not
than the probable agreement in the next year of the Noble intend to follow him ; but he would call their Lordships' recol-
Earl ? Would it satisfy the country ? Would it satisfy those lection as to who the people were whose transactions were
who thought the measure founded on the immutable principle going on under their view every day ; and ask them if they
of justice ? The plan of the Noble Lord was not feasible for could with justice transfer such a power as the Bill gave to
this reason, that it seemed to unite all the pusillanimity of such people ? He perceived no object that could be gained
weakness with all the rashness of folly, and all the obstinacy of by giving corporations to Ireland, except giving the Roman
pride. He (Lord H.) had read somewhere that the Gods could Catholics of Ireland the power of taxing their fellow-subjects
grant no greater favour to a defeated or disappointed General The Bill as first sent up from the House of Corn-
than an opportunity of retrieving his ill-fortune, or his ill- mons, contained a monstrous power, enabling one body of the
chance. The same might be said of their Lordships; no better people to tax another ; and, as it was, the lowest body of the
opportunity could present itself of retrieving the false step they people elected the Town Councils. The rates were to be le-
had made than the one which now offered itself to them. God vied, not according to the principle of the 9th George IV.,
forbid that he should recommend to the House to adopt any but singly, doubly, trebly, or quadruply on the amount in pro-
measure from clamour, or which should be attempted to be potion to the property of the individual. The Act of 9th
forced on them ; but no such case occurred in the Bill before George IV., was optional for the people to adopt, but this was
them. s The real question was the principle which induced compulsory, and most unjust on the principle upon which taxes
the House to introduce the amendments. He trusted that it were levied ; and this principle was to be forced upon the in-
would not be thought he had departed from the tone and habitants of Dublin, Cork, and other large cities in Ireland.
temper of the debate prescribed by the Noble Earl if he ad- On that ground alone he should support the Bill as altered
verted to a few observations which had been made by Noble by their Lordships, and reject for the most part the amend-
Lords opposite. The Noble and Learned Lord on the other meats sent up by the House of Commons. The Noble
side of the House had deprecated the irregularity of alluding Baron had quoted a passage from the journals of the House
to anything which had taken place elsewhere ; and he (Lord of Lords, but he was not exactly correct.—{ Some few re-
Holland) so entirely concurred with him that the only marks were here interchanged between Lord Holland and
cause of regret he had was that on more than one occasion he the Duke of Wellington, but their purport we could not as-
did not interrupt all such proceedings. But the Noble and certain.' He repeated that nothing had occurred during
Learned Lord, though he might deprecate the plan, was not the whole proceeding that was a departure from the ordi-
exempt from the failing himself. In a speech full of wit— nary course.—( Hear.) It had been said that his Noble
full of sarcasm—full of learning, and full of eulogium, he Friend had made alterations of an extensive nature ; but
(Lord Holland) had heard the assertion that nothing was such alterations were necessary, and it was trusted that the
more unfair than to attack an individual in his absence. Yet good sense of the other House of Parliament and the public
what was the course of the debate in that respect? It was would perceive this. With respect to the alteration of the
a bitter attack upon a man who was not present to defend title of the Bill, there was nothing unusual in it, as it had
himself, for expressions made use of in another place which been done, as before stated, in the Bill for the disfranchise-
might have been mistaken or misrepresented, in language of meat of the borough of Grampound. The Noble Earl who
the most offensive and scurrilous character. Indeed the voca- had spoken that evening—and whom he always heard with
bulary appeared to have been ransacked for terms of vitupera- great pleasure, and particularly so on the present occasion—
tion to be applied to him. The person to whom he ( Lord had proposed a plan of which he had heard something before,
H.) alluded might be a great master of scurrility—(Laugh- but which he thought quite impracticable. Under existing
ter)—he (Lord H.) was not there to defend his conduct, but circumstances, such a scheme must be impracticable. He
to object to the system of assailing an individual in his absence. should have a great objection to it at any time, but he consi-
That individual might say with a slight parody of the words dered that now it was impossible. Their Lordships having on
of Falstaff, "I am not only scurrilous myself, but lam the a former occasion fully considered the measure, and the use
eause of it in others," and he might apply it with some force of Commons having modified it, he should recommend their
to the debates of that House, when grave ex-Judges and high Lordships to pursue the course they had previously determined
officers of state were daily in the habit of abusing him there. upon.—( Cheers.)
But to return to the subject of debate. That the people of The Marquis of WESTMEATH was of opinion that their
Ireland were in a condition which rendered them incapable Lordships had the interest of the people of Ireland at heart,
of being legislated for in the same manlier as the inhabitants or otherwise he would not sit among them. It was mere gib-
of the other part of the empire, the House had the assertion berisli to talk of justice to Ireland in the way it had been
of the Noble and Learned Lord. He (Lord Holland) was spoken of, and he quite agreed with the Noble Duke who had
not disposed very often to quote a man's words against himself, just sat down, that nothing should induce him to consent to a
but the House would bear him out when he appealed to their Bill which gave such power of taxation.
recollection of the Noble Lord's statement—" That the people The Duke of RICHMOND deeply regretted that their
of Ireland were alien in blood, in feeling; and in religion." Lordships should not think it pi oper to concede to the amend-
The Irish Corporations were hitherto entirely exclusive ; no inents of the House of Commons, which recognised the prin-
one was admissible to them except ho was a Protestant. The ciple of giving the power to Ireland of managing her own local
Noble and Learned Lord said that they would now be exclu- concerns. Power had been given to Ireland for voting for
sively Catholic, provided the Bill before the House passed Members to the other House of Parliament, yet they were
into a law. Examining fur a moment the policy as well as deprived of the power of appointing their mayor, town clerk,
philosophy of the Noble Lord's reasoning, how were the re- or the persons who were to investigate their weights and mea-
sults ? He (Lord Holland) maintained that the government sures. The Hpuse of Lords had unanimously declared that
of cities and towns in Ireland belonged of right to the great the present Corporations of Ireland were corrupt, in a state of
body of the inhabitants. All parties were agreed on the sub- iosolvency, and pauperised; yet they would not agree with
ject of corporate abuses in that kingdom—all allowed their the other House of Parliament, nor take the plan of the Go-
exclusive privileges to be usurpations. But it was said that vernment, nor that cf his Noble Friend near him, but allow to
if power were given to the people it would only reverse the be pursued for another year this rotten system. Did they call
ease. The results were, then, that because three-fourths that reform ? Their Lordships admitted, no person denied,
of the inhabitants of the country would form an exclu- that there were abuses in the old institutions, but, in place of
sire body, in the eyes of Noble Lords they were not endeavouring to improve, they would destroy them, sweep
to be allowed self-government, while the self-government them completely away. They would not admit the principle
of the other fourth was to be put an end to beccuse it was cor- that the people of Ireland were to be governed by municipal
rupt. He (Lord Holland) wished to come to the real objet- institutions of their own. He fully concurred in the sentiment
tion of the Noble Lord opposite. It seemed to him to be that they should not, for a moment, permit themselves to be
founded on two propositions ; the first, that a Corporation influenced in their decisions by threats.—( Hear.) There
responsible to, because elected by, the people would become could be no greater coward than he who did his duty from
the hotbed of agitation and tumult ; the second, that the de- fear. There could here be no ground for such an imputation
privation of the popular power would ensure quiet and obviate upon their Lordships, because the House of Commons had
the objection. Both these assumptions were flatly and efFec- gone further in the way of concession than their Lordships
tually contradicted by the experience of facts within the mc- were called upon to go. Their Lordships had now an oppor-
mory of many of their Lordships, as well as by the page vanity afforded them, by the suggestion of his Noble Friend
of past history. On a former occasion he had endeavoured ( Lord Grey) of pursuing a course of moderation. He thought
to prove it to their Lordships from history ; be should their Lordships ought to take time to consider, before they
now refer to later instances. The instance which he rejected both the propositions—that of Ministers, and of his
should take was in the recollection of many now living, Noble Friend (Earl Grey.) Whatever might be the conch-
the scene was the city of London, and the chief actor Mr. shin of the debate, he rejoiced at the tone of moderation and
John Wilks. It would be seen by a slight glance at the the good temper which prevailed throughout.
facts,- as connected with his history, how far the assertion that Lord W A RNC LIF FE believed that the House of Lords
Corporations in Ireland were likely to become " normal had given a fair consideration to the propositions of the other
schools of agitation" was founded upon reasonable deduction. House of Parliament, that they were determined to do their
He would not enter into all the particulars of Ma. \V 11 th.:ty to the lo,t of their judgment, and, having so acted, were
tory, although every passage in it was curious and instructive. willing to tl:ru.v themselves on the judgment of their country.
—( Laughter.) A few passages would be sufficient for his —( Cheers.) The House of Commons was praised for their
purpose. After Mr. Wilks had had a verdict of a jury rc- moderation. He was not disposed to impugn the conduct of the
corded against him, and bad. absconded and been declared House of Commons. By the Bill which their Lordships sent
an outlaw, be returned to England, awl stood as a candidate back to the Commons, towns were authorised to appoint
to represent the city of London in Parliament. He was pro- Commissioners for the purpose of cleansing, lighting, paving,
eceded against and arrested. The people—the rabble—the end other purposes, and this was left optional. What had the
mob—if their Lordships chose to term them so—rescued him C,,mmons done? Why they proposed the creation of twelve
from the custody of the sheriffs, and paraded him in triumph 7.lunicipal Corporations, and these twenty other towns named
through Westminster, Mary lebone, and Middlesex—through by diem Which must adopt the provisions of 9th Geo. IV.,
all parts of the metropolis except the city of London—where whether they would or not.—(Cheers.) This appeared to
the" normal school for agitation," a corporation, existed. lie him a most extraordinary proceeding. It was a repeal, with-
subsequently stood for the county of Middlesex, was re- out notice, of the 9th of Geo. IV. That Act allowed an op-
turned, and allowed by Lord North to take his seat in the tion, but the present Bill enforced the adoption of it. He
House, although he had insulted Royalty, even in the palace, knew of no precedent for such a proceeding. Their Lord-
and thrown the whole country into a state of confusion and ships' objection to the creation of the twelve particular bo-
uproar for ten years together. He was also chosen Alder- roughs was, not that Belturbet, or any other place, was
man of London, and became subsequently Lord Mayor : excluded from the number, but because these boroughs must
" Fuit Ilium ct ingens continue to be exclusive, as they were before. He heard the"
Gloria Teucorum." speech of his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) with great pleasure,
What was the future course of the agitator ? In 1780 a scene and hailed his return to take a share in the deliberations of
of carnage and destruction was witnessed in the metropolis, that House. His Noble Friend threw out a suggestion which
which disgraced the country and endangered its security. It he thought might reconcile the differences existing between
was not urged on by Catholic Priests, or by Catholic agita- both Houses as regarding this measure. He (Lord Wharn
tors; it was the fruit, on the contrary, of the "No Popery " cliffe) was ready to admit that where a difference existed be-
ery, and it nearly-reduced the metropolis to ashes. To whom tween both Houses of Parliament there was no other way
did the Government then resort for assistance ? To the agi- of settling it but by a compromise. The compromise, how-
tator, John Wilks? The then Lord Mayor of London bad a ever, ought to be such as Parliament and the public would
constitutional debility, which prevented his acting in the eye approve of.
of danger, and the Horse Guards had some scruples about Viscount M E LBO URNE said—l beg to be allowed to
marching troops into the City. The civic functionary could trespass on your Lordships' attention for a few moments—and
not be found, or was not willing to sign the warrant, giving it will be for a few moments only—especially as your Lord-
them permission ; and the city and all it contained, was on ships seem to have made up your minds as to the course you
the point of becoming a prey to the flames. In this enter- will pursue, and I feel it is most improbable that I shall be able
gency Wilks came forward, treated the scruples of the mill- to produce any conviction which the eloquent and powerful
tary power as ridiculous, and in his capacity of-magistrate, appeal of my Noble Friend on the cross benches—an appeal
signed himself a warrant-_a general warrant—to permit them characterised by the soundest wisdom, combined with the
to enter the city of London, and even headed them in their greatest temper—has failed to produce, to induce your Lord-
progress against the rioters. His promptitude saved the city. ships to pause in the career on which your Lordships
Thus did the man, whom they had for ten years been abusing seem to be bent. I should be happy if I could acqui-
day after day in the House of Commons as an agitator, a csce in the admonition given by the Noble Lord whom I see
breaker of the peace—the man whom they had called every opposite, who recommended that this debate should be eon-
bad name, and loaded with every opprobrious epithet, save ducted in a tone entirely free from any thing like heat or
the city of London front the fury of a mob, and the torch of violence ; but there have been some statements made by the
the incendiary. Ile was, then, however, in the Corporation. Noble and Learned Lord who spoke second in the debate
He was a pupil—or rather he was an usher, in the normal of this evening, which I cannot altogether pass over, and
school of agitation—he felt responsible for the honour of his which I cannot refer to without some feeling. I must here
order, and he maintained it. Was human nature different iu declare, that Ido not by any means agree with the No-
England and Ireland ? Would the agitators in the one coon- ble and Learned Lord in his Constitutional doctrine,
try act differently from those in the other? So much for the that a change of Government necessarily calls for,
argument founded on that branch of the opposing proposition. or justifies, a dissolution of the House of Commons.—
The suggestion of his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) seemed to ( Hear, hear, hear.) I beg to say, that I by no means
him (Lord Holland) to be of a conciliatory character, and he admit that doctrine, and I may add that when a change in
felt disposed to give it the due weight and deliberation which the Government brought us into power we did not act on that
were the right of every suggestion emanating from that quer- principle. We were able to send the members of our Go-
ter; but he could never consent to postpone the consideration vernment before the people, and, with the exception of the
of the question for another year, as bad been proposed by ano- loss of the Noble Lord the Member for Devonshire, sue-
ther Noble Earl, and hand the people of Ireland again over to ceeded in procuring their return ; and I believe it was the con-
the tyranny and cupidity of the band of condemned corpora- sciousness entertained by the Government which preceded ours
tors. He did not wish to use any very strong expressions, but of the impossibility of effecting that object that was the
he must say from the affection with which he regarded their cause of their dissolving Parliament in the beginning of the
Lordships, which had grown with his growth and had been year, which I always considered to be a Measure without a
strengtffcned by years, for the usefulness of the institution of justification.—(Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord has
the Peerage, and the great indulgence with which their Lord- also stated me to have said that this House ought to yield
ships always received any remarks that might fall from him, to the other House of Parliament, because they were the Re-
he would wish to see them act on this subject, not so as to presentatives of the people. My Lords, I said no such
create a repulsive feeling towards themselves, nor to indulge thing, or if I did, I stated that which was very far from my in-
in legislation for the purpose of putting down a man who had tention.—( Hear.) I never entertained any thought which
been guilty of calumniating and abusing them. Three-fourths had in the slightest degree a tendency to impair or diminish
of the people of Ireland required that they should be go- . the independent power which your Lordships possess, and
verned by the same law as the rest ; hut as their Lordships which you ought to exercise in the constitution.—(Hear.) The
could not agree what that law should be, they determined Noble and Learned Lord then adverted to those remarks of
that they were to have no law at all. There was some simi- his which have been the subject of so much observation, and
larity in this to the man who sent to China for a dessert ser- referred to their not having been made the subject of remark
vice, and transmitted a plate as a pattern, with orders that the by me. My Lords, it is true that I did pass them over, and
service should be exactly the same. Unfortunately in the the reason of my silence on that occasion it is not necessary
plate there was a crack, and in the whole of the service the for me now to go into—( Hear, hear)—but, recollecting that
crack was faithfully imitated.—( Laughter.) Now he thought they had not been remarked on upon that occasion, feeling
it quite as just to say that this man should not have his ser- that it was of the utmost importance not to produce any angry
vice ala Chinois because of the crack as to deprive the Irish feeling, I considered I might refer to them at this distance of
people of all Corporations because some of them were bad. time, my design being merely to advert to the arguments
If their Lordships persisted in this, he thought they would which had been used on a former occasion by the Noble and
forfeit much of the respect the country entertained for their Learned Lord. The Noble and Learned Lord has said that
character. The Noble Baron concluded by a defence of that he never would explain those words, but he would state that
warmth of language, a warmth which had been used by he never had employed them in the sense in which he was sup-
Burke, Fox, and Chatham, and which, if heeded, would have posed to have done, and that he was justified as to the manner
saved oceans of blood; and conjured their Lordships to grant in which he did employ them. Now, giving all possible at-
to the people of Ireland similar privileges to those enjoyed tention to what has fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord,
by the people of England, and to which the people of Eng- I must say that I have heard nothing but a decided repetition
land believe them to be entitled. of those expressions—( Cries of " Hear")—and I have heard
Lord LYNDHURST said that, with reference to what no justification of them except that they are expressions simi-
had been said by the Noble Baron in allusion to his speech, ho lar to those which have been employed by Mr. O'Connell—
must be allowed to say that he had been invited and chal- that they are such expressions as those of the use of which
lenged to the defence he had made. The first time, too, that he set the example.—(Hear, hear.) I must be allowed
the name of the individual alluded to was mentioned in terms to say further, that I heard those words in the first instance
of reprobation was by the Government opposite.—(Loud with the deepest concern, considering the high character and
cheers.) station of the Noble and Learned Lord—(Hear, hear)—and I
Lord HOLLAND was understood to say that there was hear the repetition of them with still increased concern.
no foundation in truth in the assertion that such individual (Cheers.) The Noble and Learned Lord is pleased to say
had been either directly or indirectly alluded to by the pre- that I have made an extravagant speech on the present occa-
sent Government. sion ; that is entirely a matter of taste. I entertain exactly
The Duke of WELLINGTON had, at an early part of the the same impression of his specch.—(Cheers and laughter.)
evening, entreated their Lordships not to be swayed, nor to at- It appears to me that if the Noble and Learned Lord desired
tend to the threats and menaces that had been uttered; and the destruction of tithe property, the destruction of the Irish
that advice which he had then given he would now repeat. Church, the Repeal of the Union, and the separation of the
By the speech of the Noble Baron, it might be sup- two kingdoms, he would resort to just that species of exagge_
posed that three-fourths of the people of Ireland had ration which he has employed throughout the debate on the