The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-23 00:00:00

CA RRICKFE RG US PETITION.

Sir IL INGLIS brought up the report of the Com-
mittee appointed to examine and pronounce upon the gig-
nitures to the petition against the return of Lord A.
and the report declaring that fourteen out of the thirty
A ignatures were forgeries, and had been forged by J. M.
Eccleston and another, the Hon. Member moved a resolu-
tion of the House to the same effect.
After a few words from Lord ALTHORP, Sir R. IN-.
Grim, Sir R. PEEL, and Mr. WyNis, the discussion was
adjourned to this day fortnight.
EMIGRATION.

- Lord HOWICK said, the transfer of a part of our su-
perabundant labourers to the colonies would be beneficial
to all parties; to the labourer here, by diminishing the
overwhelming competition from which he now suffered
severely—to the settler there, by affording him the means
of more fully cultivating the land he occupied—and to
lioth this country and the colony, by relieving much of the
:istress now existing in the former, and by adding to the
productive industry of the latter. The mode he proposed
to adopt in effecting that transfer wets shortly this. He
proposed by his Bill to empower the Crown to appoint
Commissioners for the purpose of superintending the busi-
ness of emigration, and regulating its details, which were
now altogether neglected, or left almost wholly to the
operation of chance. It would be the business
of these Commissioners to give to the emigrants ad-
vice and assistance, and to put them in the best way of
getting employment in the colony. I❑ proposing this, he
did not mean that any expence should be thrown on tile
general income of the country—it was his intention that
individuals or parishes should bear the expense thus in-
curred. He proposed, therefore, that with the consent of
two-thirds -of the inhabitants of a parish, the overseers
should be at liberty to enter into contracts with individuals
who wished to emigrate. Of course this part of the Pili
could not extend to Ireland, where there were no parish
officers and no parochial rates, and he acknowledged that
on this point his Bill was defective; but he trusted that
the deficiency would be in some measure supplied by
giving to individuals the power of making contracts. Ile
would, however, take that opportunity of observing, that
a Bill for the purpose of enabling persons in Ireland to
make these contracts for emigration ought to be passed,
in order to give the measure its best and most extended
operation. In consideration of the facility for emigration
which he thus intended to give, he proposed that the pau-
pers, in the event of their failure in the colonies (a failure
that, kens the nature of the circumstances, could only be
attributed to themselves) should waive all claim to relief
upon their return• to this country. There were at this
moment twenty millions of acres of disposable Lind in our
North American colonies. Ample means of employment
would be afforded to the labourer in the cultivation and
improvement of such an immense tract of country. The
next thing, therefore, to be considered, was the expense of
carrying the scheme of emigration into effect. The passage
of a man, his wife, and two children, it had been estimated,
would cost 661. Now the expense of maintaining such a
family in England was, at the lowest calculation, 25/. a
year. For much less, therefore, than the parochial ex-
penditure, this country could relieve itself of a great arid
growing burden. He had made these statements upon the
supposition that-it woul-1 be necessary to establish the pau-
pers on the Crown lands but he did not believe that ne-
cessity would ever occur ; for he believed that the means
of labour could be easily found elsewhere, and the labourer
would have the most easy opportunity of ameliorating his
own condition—an advantage which, derived as it would
be from his own, would be a greater benefit than if it
were bestowed on him as a boon. Upon this part of the
subject he should beg leave to refer to the evidence given
before the Committee by Mr. Hamilton, in 1827, when
that gentleman stated that the number of persons who had
emigrated to Canada in the then last year amounted to
10,000. That number, however, was absorbed speedily;

for though Mr. Hamilton thought that emigration carried
on at that rate would be a great evil, it seemed that no
less than twenty-eight thousand landed at Quebec in 1829,
18:30 ; and the Quebec Gazette stated that the " numbers
who had arrived last season were now comfortably esta-
blished and provided for." A letter from the agents to the
Canada Company which he had seen, contained statements
to the same effect. All that the Commissioners would have
to guard against would be a temporaty excess of la-
haul., if the emigration was conducted on a great national
scale ; but against that evil their care and caution must pro-
vide. The Commissioners might employ the labourers on
their arrival i❑ public works, in order not to throw them
at once on the general marker. Taking wages at 2s. 6d.
a-day, a man would earn 39/. a-year. The Government
only claimed the merit of having adopted the ideas of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who had so long and perseveringly
urged on the country the consideration of the subject. The
Noble Lord concluded by moving for " leave to bring in a
Bill to facilitate voluntary Emigration to his Majesty's
Possessions Abroad."

Mr. SCHONS%VAR should give his support to the pro-
position of the Noble Lord.
Sir G. MURRAY believed that this was the best mode
of relieving the distress at home. There was, however,
one feature in the plan proposed to which he much ob-
jected; he meant the appointment of Commissioners to
manage the system of emigration. The first objection he
had to their appointment was, that Commissioners resident
here ought not to have the power of allocating lands ; and
his second objection, that they ought not to have the power
of directing details, which might better be entrusted to per-
sons living in the colonies. While the subject was under his
consideration, he looked out for a man who might be trusted
to make the necessary inquiries, and be selected Mr. Rich-
ards, whom accident had made him acquainted with, and who
in every possible respect, seemed calculated to discharge
such a duty with the utmost efficiency. That gentleman
had resided for years in America, and had besides been em-
ployed in the business of valuing and settling lands there.
On that gent'eman's integrity he felt be could as much
rely as on his talent and experience. To him, therefore,
was entrusted the task of examining into the matter. That
gentleman had now probibly made his report, for it had
not been made when he (Sir G. Murray) left office. The
plan he intended to have acted upon was this—that no-
thing should be done that appeared like holding out encou-
ragement in a pecuniary point of view, or giving a bounty
upon emigration, but that thosa who voluntarily wished
to emigrate, or whom their landlords wished to quit their
estates, or who were willing to go out with any humane
socie y, should open a communication with the Colonial
Office, and should have every facility afforded for ending
out their way to the Colonies. He intended to have
established at certain ports of the United Kingdom, agents,
whom, he would have selected from the half-pay Lieu- '
less nits r esident there, and who shouhi have been the in-
termediate agents between the shipowners and the emi-
grants. There would have been in that no further ex-
pence, but
a slight increase on the half-pay of the gentle-
That was the whole system, so far
men thus employed.
as he contemplated it at the time. The power of the
agents on the land granting departments in the, colonies
should have been regulated—they should have been obliged
to make surveys of the grounds, and to give directions
etoooling the emigrants to proceed to their settlements and
enter on the possession of them. He thought the prin-
ciple of interfering too much was quite as bad, if not worse,
than that of interfering too little ; and he believed, that
when Government interfered too much in matters of this
kind, they were generally guilty of much mismanage-
ment. He had, therefore, avoided that error as much as
possible. That was the basis of the plan he contemplated
carrying into effect.
me. TENNANT, impressed with a sense of the evils of
a superabundant population, was still snore convinced or
the necessity that the country should not rush into the
evils of an excessive taxation. The measure before the
House would produce an increase of taxation in this over-
burtheneul nation, of which the House seemed to have no
conception. lie wished to know what was intended by
the Noble Lord, respecting_ the location of the emigrants
under his Act, upon their arrival in the colony
.' Ids (Mr.
, Tennant) had himself considered the subject of colonize-
lion, and the House would allow the measure of the Noble
Lord to stand over, until lie (Mr. Tennant) should be able
to lay before them a brief statement of what he conceived
to be the sound principles of emigration.
Mr. GRATTAN objected to the principle of the Bill,
But as he still hoped that good might, perhaps lie effected
by the Bill, he would not oppose it.
Lord ALTIIORP reminded the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down, that his Noble Friend had explained
t at the Bill was perhaps faulty in one respect, which was
that it would not apply to Ireland. As there was in that
country abundant room for improvement, it was the inten-
tion of his 'Majesty's Ministers to employ tile people in ef-
fecting the most practicable improvements within the
country itself. Time plan of his Noble Friend had been
misunderstood by the Bight Hon. Baronet oppasite. It was
not intended to have high paid Commissioners to c,..ny
the provisions of the Bill into effect.--( Hear.) It had also
been objected that the granting of lands to emigrants wmot
injudicious, and had produced ill effects. Pet the objection
did not apply to the measure of his Noble'Friend, whose
object was to supply the colonies with the labUur in which
they were at present defieient. A's time supply of labour in
the colonies was inferior to the demand, whilst on the con-
trary the supply was superior to the demand at home, it

was the object of his Noble Friend's 11111 to increase the
supply of labour when it wes :r.le.flleient for the demand,
and to diminish it at home where the redundancy was an
acknowledged evil. He contended that the immediate
expense would be no more than the anopunt of three years'
support of the poor by the parisl , Coless the pressure of
t;onent
v‘aps,oholeirnn ldateliar: sptalea•erloeh,:ri
original
in should
stitution
did not see bow it was
possible to improve their administration.—(Hear, hear.)—
tpiolanceodf in
nthtoisele same anus.
would be able to administer them according to their ori-
einal principles. II wing given bi 4 attention to the Bill of
his Noble Friend, he had, upon the fullest consideration,
resolved to support it.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY explained.
Air. SADLER said, that there were no terms which
(Mr. Sadler) had at command, that could express his
ohjection to the principle of the proposed measure. lie
halieved that it would give no relief; but that it would
rafter increase the miseries which it was expected to
alle-
viate. Was it to be expected, that the promises of pledges
of the present Government to relieve the distresses of the
nation would be realised, when they now found it neces-
, aary, after all, to come forwald with a plan to send 'away
e portion of the people? And what portion was it pro-
' leveed to part with? Was it the aged, the decrepit, the
helpless? No; but the most useful of the whole po-
pulation—that part, of which no portion, at any period
of our history, has been ever superfluous.—(Hear.)—
Why should they not first cultivate the thirty millions of
waste land that are enclosed within the British shores.—
(Hear, hear.) Why send them to people the desert of
mother land, while there remained deserts to be cultivated
et home?—(Hear, bear.) lie referred to the cowlitien of
the Flemish population, which amounted to three times
the proportion of the British. The former amounted to
700 persons to the square mile, or about one to the acre ;
whereas the population of England was no more than
about 270 to the square mile. But if distress existed,
and was increasing, under the very circumstances which
would naturally diminish it—he meant, under an increase
of numbers, by which alone the fertility of the soil, and
the proportion of production could be increased—he
would ask, was it sa`e policy to diminish the productive
part of the population ? He repeated, that it was a mis-
take to suppose that part of the population superfluous.—
A Committee of that House had come to the complaisant
vonelmion, that the people were redundant—that the super-
fluity ;was irremediable—and that rank and power were
exempted from investigating further the causes of dis-
ssess, and from attempting to alleviate it. Whereas,
if there be. difficulties in the way of that alleviation,
it was their indispensable duty to grapple with them ;
or, if the relief was easy, to undertake it without
delay. In the evidence before that Committee, it was
shown that there exiatsd no redundancy in the mat ket of
Ipbour ; he disliked to use the degrading term, though he
was compelled to do so in conformity with the phraseology
of the day. The first witness called was very competent
to answer the question. Being asked whether, in his
parish there was a redundancy of labour, he replied, that
in summer and harvest, labour was extremely scarce; but
in the wirier it was sufficiently attendant. Therefore, if
the Noble Lord would carry his principle of the equalise_
tion of labour into effset, he must either change the sea-
sons, or there would be a redundancy every winter. But
would it not be the more natural way to provide winter
employment and subsistense for the people whose labour
the country would peel in summer ? It would also he
less expensive than emigration. If that Bill were carried
into effect, it would introduce a new system of morals as
well as of political economy, and the word patriotism
would he abolished from the, list of virtues.—(No, no.)
He had paid much attention to the subject—and he
said so without ostentation. But he would not trespass on
the House, as it did not seem inclined to hear him.—
(Hear, hear.)—That man must knew little of the history
of colonization who did not know that misery was inse-
parable from colonization.—(Hear.)—He did not wish to
be misunderstood. He would not throw impediments in
the way of emigration.—(Hear.)—Frown all the accounts
which had been received in this country front emigrants,
left no doubts on Oe minds of those whom they reached,
that the distress was greater abroad than at home, and
that they would have ben infinitely better off if they had
never left the land of their nativity. It had been said by
some lion. Members that the West India intersst was at
the present moment suffering under the pressure of distress.
Now, if the relief for this country front the effects of sus
perabundance of labour, anti that the mute cause had pro-
duced similar effects in the West Indies, then, according
to that argument, the best course for the West India
, planters would be to send off some of their people to
Africa. It was really no longer to be endured that those
who took a part in the discussions of the Legislature
should continue to lead mankind as if they were nothing
better than beasts of burden. Political arithmeticians
had, as it were, by a negative series, made out men to
he worse than nothing, and contended that it would
be a great political object to get rid of them.—
There could not be the slightest doubt the condition of the
labouring. classes was rapidly deteriorating, and the means
of providing for them profitable improvement rapidly
passing away. How could it be otherwise, when of set
purpose many of the Aets passed its that House were di-
rected to that object alone—he did not mean to say inten-
tionally, but the effect eas as complete and perfect as if
the insidious desien had been at all times present in tl.e
minds of the Legislators. To the plan of the Noble Lord
opposite he could certainly not give his support, for
be thought it certain to lead to expence, calculated to
wound the feelings of the people, and likely, altogether,
to defeat the objects which he h .d in view.
Mr. F. BARING denied that there was any thing cruel
in the plan of his Noble Friend, and he entertained not
the slightest doubt that it would lead to beneficial results.
Air. WARBURTON observed that it had been calcu-
lated that the annual increase of the population of the
United Kingdom amounted to 200,000 souls. Did any
man imagine that a forced emigration could be carried on
to any thing like that extent. The emigration to Canada
could not amount to more than 24,000 annually, and he
conceived it to be perfectly vain for any man to talk of a
plan of emigration which did nPt extend the length of
200,000 persons every year.
Mr. BARING was of opinion that upon the solution
of this question depended, in a great measure, the happi-
ness of this country and the welfare of its agricultural
labourers. He agreed that the House ought to be vers,
careful how it lent itself to visionary schemes ; yet he did
hope that the House would bestow its most serious atten-
tion upon the investigation of so momentous a question.
He had listened to the Hon. Member for Newark with
that attention which the earnestness of the Hon. Mt mbar

always commanded, at least from bins. The Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Sadler) had told them, like t;ie Hon, Member
for St. Alban's (Mr. Tennant), that he had an excellent
and infallible scheme in his pocket ; and yet the Hun.
Member had sitten down without condescending to
emmounictre it. Now he could not help regretting that
the Hon. Member had not trespassed upon the House jo.,t
five minutes longer, in order to impart this scheme to
them.—(Hear, and laughter.) As it was, he could find
nothing but declamation in the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Newark —( Hear, hear.) Far be ii from him to
deny that distress existesl lint hi, would venture to say,
th it since the war,---or rather since the strugeles which
had been caused by the turrency,—there had beeß 7„o pe-
riod in which there had been manifested st!.;:h an improve-
ment in the agricultural, the m?.n-,,facturing, and the com-
mercial interests of the country as at the present moment,
The fact, however, was that labour was superabundant in
this country, and herein consisted their chief difficulty.
The Hon. Member for Newark had, ha knew, denied this,
but let him entreat the Hon. Member to give some reasons for,
his denial,—to speak in a language that was to be under-
stood, and nut to dee!aim so much about the ennrse of human
nature --(Hear, and laughter.) Let !inn put to the Hon.
Member fur Newai k this aimple fact,—where could there
be a more con7incing proof of the super abundance of labour
trim That when our farmers had applietl deb,-,;,r to every
work in which labour could h., used, they were still com-
pelled to turn lahourevs ttpon the roads, tar into gravel-
pits ? He would ask the Hon. Member fcr Newark
wlc,Aliek it would not be leis revolting to humanity to carry
out our superabundant labourers, as this Bill proposed to
do, to a land where they we,,,;id get employment and sub.
sistence, than to employ them as they hid been Irvc.ly
em-
ployed by over,eera in several parts of tha country ?
The only real way to provide a remedy fair the evil which
confessedly existed in this etas, was to see if you could giYt.•
some valucto 1a1.,,0ur. The m.rket for labour was glutted
at the pro-ent moment. He was well acqoaintcd %i•ith the
Cmadas, and he was opinion that they were quite healthy,
generally speaking. There w..ae many parts of Es.ex
worse than any of the unhealthy portions of the Canada,.
By atllirding ilia,. me ins to our distress,. I population to te-
movc to a country where thoy would find proper value f. 0,7
labour, by doing that, they would confer a goiter
benefit upon the pour of this country thaA by all the con-
tributions which it was possible. fur them to make to
einstitutions N
a'ir uk
had spoken of thk: cultivation
tbe relief of the poor. The
• Hun,ri
0: waste lands at home, as a niean for affprding relief to
our labouring poor ; but he (Mr. Baring) would ask,
where were the SQ,POD.,P,W.of acres of waste land of which
the Hon. Al:ember had spoken ? He wished to state one fact
to the House, as illustrative to the !ertility of the land in
Canada. Land was known in Canada to produceBs I.,ushels,
of wheat per acre, which fur ten yeare had Ikea under

incessant crops of wheat, and where the stumps of e,e
trees which had been cleared away were still visible. That
was a refutation of the statement with regard to the
s'erility of land in Canada. Fut it was said, that if thi,
system of emigration was t tl, sirable thing, why should
we not leave it to itself ? The obvious answer was, that
in the first place, the poor people did not know of the
renefits which they would reap from emigration ; and.
ill the second place, even if they were aware of the bene
ficial consequences which would attend their emigrating t
a country like Canada, they had not the 11,r in of gain
there. It was to supply them with such means that the
present commission was proposed. lle (Mr. Thr ng)
Lew several parishes where a superabundance. of !bon rrs
had existed, and where relief had been afforded by athip!-

log a plan of emigration. The way in which the thin;;
was done was this—the leading persons in the palish
called the people together, explained to them the lon-fits
which would arise from the emigration of a certain por-
tion of them, and gave them the option of going out if
they liked to do so. There was no coercion used, tlx
• flier was accepted by several, and the most bt neticial re-
o,lts followed from such emigration. It was a curious
fact how very small an excess of labour was required in a
strict to produce there a great depreciation of labour in
e merket. That fist would appear from the fidlow-
ing statement:—ln the county of Sussex the popu-
lation amounted to 233,000, and the wales in that
population, from the age of fifteen to sixty, were
,-,0,000. Now if they took off the population of such
ol:ices as Brighton, and substracted also tiee artisans
in towns who were pretty well off, the male agricultural
ie.pulation, from the age of 15 to 50, employed in agri-
culture slid not exceed 25,000. Now lie felt roniVient
that the superabundance or excess of that population be-
o.td the labour was not more than one-fourth. He might
fairly state the number, the removal of whom would no-
s ore labour to its proper value there, at 6,250, and that
demonstrated clearly the small excess which was requited
to produce a depreciation of labour. It should be recol-
lected, too, that the county of Sussex was that county int
England which was in the worst state as regarded the su-
perabundance of agricultural labour. The amount, it ap-
iwared, which it would be necessary to remove in tin'
county of Dorset, to afford a similar relief, was only
1,250/. These were strong facts in proof of the good effects
which might be expected from a well-regulated system of
emigration. He was of opinion that at all events the"-
were lound to look at the case with calmness and delibe-
ration, and that they should endeavour to see whether great
Folic( might not be afforded to the country in the manner
in which it was now proposed to afford it.
Mr. SLANEY said that the question was, whether this
Bill might not be the means of remedying an admitted
evil, at least to some extent? The question was net as
to a general redundancy of population in this country, but
as to whether they could not lay their finger upon parishes
and districts in this country in which there was a greater
number of labourers than could find employment or obtaits
independent wages. That such was the case in cer-
Lin districts in the southern counties had been abundunt4
Droved by the reports of Committees of that Houno year
after year. A general enclosure act had been often called
for in that House, and he regretted greatly that one had
not been passed.—(Hear, hear.) He was confident that-
the measure proposed by the Noble Lord was calculated to,
facilitate the means for the people of this country for going;
out to a country where they would get a proper value for
t. teir labour, and he should give it his support.
Sir EDWARD SUGDEN did not rise to oppose the
motion; for though he agreed with the Hon. 'Member
for Bridport that such a measure would not afford great.
general relief, yet as it might afford some relief, he shouldi
support any proposition for that purpose. He was.
wartn friend to emigration conducted upon proper prin-
ciples. He concurred, however, with the Hon. Member
for Bridport, in thinking that this was a forced measure
of emigration—he did not use the word " forced' in the
sense of compulsory, but he meant to say that the pro-
posed measure went to force emigration as you would force-
grapes in a hothouse. It did so by holding out a prem4sm
to the people to emigrate. The scheme of the Noble
would never repay the thousandth part of a shillin,t
vanced, and whatever vacuum it made would soon are filled
up again.

Mr. BENETT thought that the taxes whi.lll, premed
upon productive industry ought to be removed, and do-
mestic affairs better attended to before emigration waL
thought of.

Mr. W. WHITMORE felt convinced that the poor !aws.
could not be ameliorated till 'Some such inemure a that
now proposed was introduced.

Mr. HUNT had listened with the_ greatest atti..ntion to
the debate. The. question was Qx the greatest import-
ance, but it was one which he had never expected to have
discussed in that House. He was cane who, out of that
House, had always treated the subject with derision,
not to say disgust; but since he had heard the dis.
cussion in that House, he felt that it was one of the
greatest importance which could be taken into consi-
deration. Every body who had spoken that night was
a mere theorist except the lion. Member for Wiltshire.
and he was a practical man, a large land-owner, and a
farmer; and he (Mr. Hunt) agreed with him that there
was not any redundancy of population. The evils arcs,
from a want of capital in the cultivators of land. Tuts,
away the taxes that pressed upon the lauded ir..etick, and
establish a commutation of tithes, and there would- he no.
redundancy of population. The time, however, was gota'
by IT a commutation of tithes, and nothing but then
abolition would effect any good.—(Hear, hear.)—H'-
disapproved of the plan of home colonization, as stitch
he did of that of ti reign colonization. ientlrtnen
talked of colonizing Hounslow-heath and Dartmoor,, toed
they might just as well talk of coloniz'ng the top,, tp4. St_
Psure. There was good land enough in elth's,l4-41, if
there was any remunerating pt ice for the pi 111„
was not such a Goth or Vandal as to rore'.e.tnet the use of
improved machinery, but he knew well t'.iat where thrash.
ing machines had been destroyed, in those porishrs the.,
farmers had not a sufficient number of men to flutist' out
the corn to supply the mi:rket, though prior to the de-.
struction of the machines there had been a surplus popula-
tion. The scheme of the Noble Lord was one of the
most preposterous he had ever heard of. Mortgage t4e,
poor rates ! In God's name did not the Noble Lord know.
what state the poor laws were in ? Why they were no*
worth ttiree years' purchase. The Hon. Member for Ca/_
lington had said, that the surplus popnlation existed ors).,.
in the southern counties, and that it was only
them
counties that the poi r se driven I v
l"W pr'nass to com-
mit acts of insubordination. Wait the
-1-lou.e to he told
that this existed only °te su"*:.sern counties ? Why,
it existed in the wanuitto
metropolis itself. "arinz distilets, and even in the
1.-le had been informed in the lobby
of th.it Ilin;se, by the overseer of St. Leonard's, of tie
distressed state of the poor in that parish, and he know
that in Birmingham the poor were employed to wheel
heavy harrows of sand up hill, making a distance of
eighteen miles, for one shilling. This aroFe from the ex-
cess of taxation. In Essex, the Hon. Member for that
county had stated that some of the test lands were not half
cultivated. In such a stage of things, were they to relieve
the poor by such a. measure as that now proposed to the
House by the Noble Lord ? lie would divide the House
again o,ad again, before such a meanie as that of rnorgag-
'Lg the poor-rates should be adopted. Though those who
took the part which he did had once heen decried, and the
terms of swinish multitude and similar words of reproach
bad been east upon them, he was happy at length to see a
growing disposition to listen to the poor, when at least
taxes were to lie leivied; but when petitions were pre,ented
it was quite. the reverse.—(Cries of " N0,.n0 ")—He knew
this to be the fact. He hail been down to the House for
.. week to present petitions, without finding an opportu-
nity, and the time -silotteil to their reception was not suffi-
cient. Tat land had been raised three-fold in rent, and
yet tbe rate of wages had not been raised in proportion,
and it was the first duty of the House to preveist labourers
being paid out of the poor-rates. If the Noble Lord's
scheme took effect, farmers would not let their licit men
emigrate, and none would go but purrs and theworst,
pints of the population. Recently 150 persons had been
sent out front on:. parish to New York, hut they would
not let them land. They had been obliged to put again to
Nea, and had never been heard of snore Ile believed that
the Noble Lord's plan would lead to a great deal of emi-
gration of this description.

Mr. BROWNLOW supporttoi the Ml'. He described
the population of Ireland to be in a state of absolute
vstion, and he was therefore surprised to hear Hon. Mem-
bers deny that there was any redundancy of population.
The poor would flock front Ireland to England to fill up
the vacuum vi hich the plan might produce, and he thought
the measure ought to .z.tend to Ireland.
Mr. BRISCOE rose, but amidst a coughing which ren-
dered him inaudible. He entreated the attention of the
House for a few momeots.—(Coughing.) Those Mm-
hers who had coughs had better stay at home.—(Continued
coughing, and laughing.) There was a redundancy of po-
pudation, :and it was a problem how to employ the poor.
With respect to the question of colonization, it wholly de.
!Tr.:led upon the question of its details.—(Coughing.) No
consideration should induce him to sit down till lie met
toi::
with patient and respectful attention.—(A laugh.) H.,-
would move an adjournment. The Hun. Member c
nued for some time, but the noise and cries of question"
prevented our hearing him.
Member for Preston (Mr. Hunt) with
..c1 by the Hon.
put u.contrasted the tours:
HOWICK replied. He

that of the supporters of this measure, in respect to the
interests of the poor. The Hon. Member lamented their
being employed in carting rubbish at one shilling per day.
He (Lord Howick) and the supporters of the Bill wished
to pro vide them the means of earning three shillings and
sixpence per day with comfort; but the Hon. Member for
Preston said " No, they may starve, they may rot where
they are." These were not the very words, but the pur.
port of what he said.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
TITHES OF POTATOES IN IRELAND.
Mr. RUTHVEN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
exempt occupiers of land in Ireland, not exceeding two
acres, from the payment of tithe on potatoes. The Hon.
Member admitted that the clergy had a right to these
tithes, but this measure was rather an appeal to the charity
of the clergy, than a design to trench upon their rights.
It was idle to talk of emigration as a relief to Ireland ; it
was a relief from tithes that was required. He did not
wish to take the tithes from the present clergy, but the
Government should bring forward some measure on this
subject that would not agitate the country.
Mr. STANLEY said, the Hon. Member had admitted
that the Bill he proposed would take away the legal rights
of the church.—(Hear, hear.) The effects of the Tithe
Composition Bill, he (Mr. Stanley) was glad to say, were
become more apparent every day, in the increased number
of commutations and compositions. But did the Hon.
Member propose any commutation of tithes? No; he re-
commended an arbitrary measurement of the land, and on
that measurement that there should be an exenartion from
tithes.—(Hear.) The measure was opposed to a principle
upon which the Legislature had acted for years—that of
discouraging small holdings, front a conviction of their ulti-
mate injury to the people of Ireland. Although he gave the
Hon. Member credit for the best motives, he thought it ne-
cessary to give him notice of his hostility to the Bill.
'sir. O'CONNELL had no great interest in wishing
success to the thaugla he was sorry it was opposed,
;snit regretted the manner in which it had been opposed.
He was sorry to hear it stated from official authority that
a cruel system of oppression was becoming daily more and
more apparent. He should have hoped that the present
Ministers would have introduced some mitigation of the
Tithe Composition Bill, rather than have vindicated the
system. Did the Hon. Member (Mr. Stanley) know
that the system was so arranged that a clergyman, by
management, could have it introduced into a parish when-
ever he pleased, whilst a parish could not compel a clergy-
man to adopt it without his approbation. There was no
reciprocity in such a system. As to the motion, he doubted
whether the tithe of potatoes was a right so undoubted as
the Hon. Alember seemed to think ; in some districts it
was not insisted upon. It was better, therefore, not to
stand on abstract legal right.
Mr. HUNT said that in the West of England, where the
acre was only half that of Ireland, the tithe was the same.
Mr. GOULBURN concurred with the Hon. Secretary
for Ireland, that the measure would do a great injustice,
without producing any advantage. He defended the Tithe
Composition Act, the effect of which, he contended, was
not such as had been stated by the Hon. and Learned
3lember (Mr. O'Connell).
Mr. O'CONNELL explained.
Mr. D. BROWNE could not support the measure of
the Hon. Member for Downpatrick, because the advan-
tage would go, not into the pocket of the tenant, but into
that of the landlord.
Mi. J. GRATTAN said that the Composition Act, if
amended, would prove one of the hest Acts that had ever
been passed for Ireland.
Mr. RUTHVEN signified his willingness to withdraw
the motion by permission of the House.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON supported the motion, and
should divide the House.
Mr. OTERRALL and Mr. RUTIIVEN requested the Hon.
Member not to divide the Howse.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON should have acceded to
tl e request of the lion. Members, if they had made it
It fore he had promised the House to divide.—(Laughter.)
A division then took place, and the numbers were—
For the motion 1
Against it l3O
Sir E. SUGDEN moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
extend the statute of mortmain to Ireland.
Mr. NORTH expressed his sorrow that the Learned
Gentleman hid introduced the Bill. He hoped the Learned
Member would withdraw it, and consult the Irish law
authorities on the subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he should divide
the House in every stage of the Bill. One of the tenden-
cies of the Bill was to prevent the Presbyterians rendering
their clergy independent of the regium (Imam, but its
principly effect would be to overthrow the Catholic church,
which depended entirely on voluntary contributions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
see that any grievance had been proved to arise from the
state of the existing law in Ireland, and should therefore,
A* a division took place, vote against the motion.
Sir C. WETHERELL coincided in opinion with the
Noble Lord (Althorp. )
Sir E. SUGDEN was not surprised at the opposition
offered to the Bill by the Hon. Member for Waterford
(Mr. O'Conne:!), because the Bill, he admitted, was in •
tended to prevent the inconvenient disposition of lands to
Catholic institutions. If the sense of the House should
appe,a- to he against him, he certainly should not make
any further attempt to proceed with the measure.
The gallery was then cleared, but the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's motion was eventually negatived without a

division.
Sir. GUEST, pursuant to his notice for this evening,
mos.l for a return of all pensions, and all salaries, payable
out cr: the Civil List, and specifying the services per
former!, N-hether civil or military ; in doing which the
lion. Genti-mm stated that he did not apprehend it to be
the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to object to the
production r.f su:di reterns.
Mr. SPRING RICE anticipated that the motion as
now worded would occasion considerable inconvenience,
since it would induce the necessity of an application by
letter to be named in the whole catalogue. To the prin-
ciple of the motion Government was by no means hostile,
but he would recommend that it should be so framed as to
resider it practicable to comply with the Hon. Member's
desire.
Mr. GOULBURN urged that it would be difficult to
accede to the proposition, inasmuch as no one could take
upon I;iin to decide what were nominal services and what
were not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER advised
the Hon. Gentleman to 7:: ithdraw his present motion, and
bring it forward in an ainent:.?d form on a future day,
when Government would agree to its a joPtions
Mr. WARBURTON recommended the iio2, Member
for I'loniton to accede to the suggestion of the Noble Lo; -
Mr. GUEST accordingly consented, and the motion
was withdrawn, on the understanding that it should be
again submitted in a more manageable shape hereafter.
The Exchequer Bills Bill went through a Committee,
and the report was ordered to be received this day (Wed-
nesday.)
The other orders were subsequently disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past One.

LIST OF THI
OF 371, WHO VOTED FOR MR HU:
OF VIIIPPLY ON MONDAY NIGHT,
REGULAR ARMY FROM 88,001 T(
Buller, Charles
Hume, Joseph
Mahon, O'tiorman
O'Connell, Daniel

MINORITY
!IT'S 'MOTION, IN THE CONIMITTEE
TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TIIC
)71,000.
Warburton, Henry
Wood, John
TELLER.
Hunt, Henry

EXPRESS FROM PARIS.

(From the Times.)
We have just received, by an extraordinary ex-
pre :s from Paris, the Moniteur and other .Journals
of Monday, and the Messager des Chambres dated
Tuesday, Feb. 22. They are chiefly filled with the
report of the sitting of the Chamber of Deputies on
Sunday, the 20th of February.
CEIA3II3ER OF DEPUTIES.—SITTING OF Fxn. 20.
" A tumultuous agitation prevails during and after the
reading of the proves verbal. It was observed that M
Bart* instead of taking his place on the Ministerial
Bench, walked along the centre, where he conversed with
several Deputies. The Ministerial Bench remained empty.
The most contradictory report' circulated. M. Bartle
at length took his place nn the Ministerial Bench, where
,e was soon joined by the President of the Council, M. de
Nontalivet, and all the other Ministers.
The sitting opened at two o'clock.
• The President read a letter from the Minister of
Finance, with the copy of a Royal ordinance.—(A' lively
expressi)u of curiosity.)—lt was the ordinance of the 15th
instant, by which the King appoints Count Mollien, Pre-
sident of the Committee of Superintendence of the Caisse
d'Amortissetnent, and Messrs. o<lier and Baron Louis,
members of the same Committee, The order of the day
is the continuance of yesterday's debate. M. de Laborde
is to speak. (On all sides, And the Minister of Finance.')
" M. de Labordc ascends the tribune, and gives a sign
that he would not desire to speak till after the President of
the Council.
" The President of the Council desires to speak.—
(Profound silence.)—' Gentlemen, I told you yesterday
that the last speaker heard at this sitting was the only one
who touched on thoquestion. I did not say that he had
solved it. It is to him alone that I mean to answer.
.hall not lemind

,ou 01

my share k the revolution of July, and of fifteen years' un-
interrupted opposition so prejudicial to my private in-
terests. Happily, if my fellow-citizens may have denied
me the qualities of a statesman, they have not disputed
those of a frank and unalterable friend
.4_ the revolution.

(' Very true, very true.')--Besides, individuals are out
of the question here : 1 occupy a position, and the speaker
to whom I reply has occupied one in which individual
considerations disappear before considerations of much
greater importance.
" The question is, the situation of our country, that
in which we have placed it by our actions ; the question
is to probe the degree of evil, and to know whether there
is a remedy discovered by one party, and rejected by th,

other. The Hon. Member has drawn, of the present si-
tuation, a picture which I may venture to call frightful.
He has seen the Constitutional Powers in a struggle, the
Executive Powers disunited. Ile has seen individual

liberty endangered, the liberty of public worship attacked,
disorder making an increasing progress, and, in the midst

of this situation, which daily becomes worse, a power
which suffers every thing to go to ruin because it cannot
persuade itself to displease,—because it is not sufficiently
convinced that it must do without popularity.
" This manner of painting political situations,—of
loading them with gloomy colours,—of accumulating ob-
stacles and dangers, to attribute them afterwards to the
persons in power, I can conceive in men who have devoted
their whole lives to opposition, and not had the melancholy

• •
experience of government, but I do not conceive it in a
man who has passed only a part of his life in the opposi-
tion,—who has but very lately held the reins of autho-
rity,—who has been able to judge of the difficulties, and
who did not retire after having conquered them.—(Ap-
probation on the left—' That is true.')
" Assuredly the situation of France is serious. There
is uneasiness—a distrust of the future—immediately after
a revolution. In the uncertainty of peace or war—in the
presence of two parties,—tbe use weak, but active, in-
triguing, implacable ; the other strong, victorious, impa-
tient,—the state of anxiety in which we are cannot sur-
prise. So many interests would be endangered, either by
war or by a struggle between the parties, that the country
cannot but feel alarm at it. However, as good citizens,
we enght not to exaggerate the evil. The day before that
on which an insensate act disturbed people's minds, great
tranquillity prevailed. If on that day the situation of
February had been compared with the situation of Octo-
ber, it would have been found that order was re-esta-
blished, liberty protected, and most of the difficulties
consequent on the revolution of July happily surmounted.
The only difficulty always present and not yet solved, that
of peace or war, would have seemed then as it does now
the most serious. Such would have been the judgment
passed, the day before the celebration of the mass at St.
Germain l'Auxerrois. But in the midst of the deplorable

scenes which that ceremony caused, Paris itself was not
disturbed, for all the pleasures of the season were fol-
lowed with the greatest security, and the people, whom
a foolish bravado had exasperated, dispersed at the
hare appearance of the National Guard. However, though
tranquillity has now completely returned, I allow that
the situation is difficult and serious, and the uneasiness
profound. The question is, to know who is to blame for
it, and what would be the retnedy,—whether the fault is
in the Government (pouvoir) in its want of union and
action, or in the situation, which is stronger than men. If
it is in the Government, a remedy for our evils must be
immediately sought in a change of men. If in the situa-
tion, we must submit, unite together to conquer the diffi
culties, and above all not exaggerate the danger, for fear of
discouraging the good citizens. If it was the Government
which was wrong,—if it was that which had not per-
formed its duties—which bad not acted,—which had
wanted unanimity, while it might have foreseen, acted,
and proceeded with harmony,—l would then address the
speaker to whom I reply. I would ask him if he thinks
it possible, in times of trouble and agitation, to foresee—to
act—so as always to prevent a riot. He was Minister of
the Interior in October; he had the police of the National
Guard in his hands, and yet the Palace of the King was
disturbed in the middle of the night by cries of blood. I
am far from reproaching him on this account, for I was
a member of the Council with him ; and if there was a
fault, I should be the accomplice; but let him tell us if he
then knew the means of hindering a riot from breaking out.
" At the same time it appears there was a difference, not
in action but in language, between the Minister of the In-
terior and the Prefect of the Seine.—(M. Guizot desires
leave to speak.) I again address the Hon. Speaker, and
ask him, if he thinks that the dismissal of those who,
while they seconded each other did not speak the same
language, was a means of restoring the energy of Govern-
ment, and quelling the riots ? Assuredly not, for the
Hon. Deputy M. Guizot did not quit the Ministry on
account of his differences with the Prefect of the Seine.
What was said the day after these events, which were as
deplorable as those which we have just witnessed ? Every
thing that you heard yesterday. It was said that the
Government had not acted—that it had suffered the Na-
tional Guard to act for it—that there was anarchy among
the authorities,—that the Government was at the rear
instead of being at the bead ; for after having spoken for
several days of clemency, it all at once spoke of justice,
after a popular tumult. In this people judge too severely,
they did not allow for the situation of the Govern-
ment ; but I ask the speaker, who was attacked in
these terms, did lie find the attacks deserved ; and if
he thought them unjust towards himself how can he
employ them towards colleagues who have succeeded him?
My Hon. Colleague, M. Guizot, quitted the Council, it is
true, but why ? Had he found means to prevent troubles ?
did he propose those mean, which his proposal rejected,
and did he retire because it was 'ejected ? Did lie then
tell us that popularity was an impotent and ephemeral
means of governing,—that another, more real, more effi-
cacious, was required? Did he point out to us the only
one which remains, in times of trouble, when means of
persuasion are renounced,—viz., force,—and force in all
its energy ? Did he say to us, 4We must renounce the
notion of satisfying the demands of this people ? They
will always demand more. The only means is to resist it
by force, that is to say, by the bayonet?'—(Murmurs. A
voice, He did not say that.') I propose to employ it;
if you refuse, I retire. Undoubtedly, if the Hon. M.
Guizot had made this energetic proposal to us, I, for my
part, should not have accepted it ; but at least it would
have been a proposal. If, without proposing such deci-
sive measures, he had at least believed that a certain de-
gree of firmness would have a better result, we might bet-
ter understand his reproaches. But far from that the
Government was offered to him and his friends ; he would
not have it, and did not think it possible to apply his sys-
tem. He did not propose force ; lie did not advise us to
renounce popularity ; for he said, on the contrary, that
Government had need of a confidence which men
more popular than himself would be more likely to in-
spire. We had to pass the trial of the ancient Ministers,
and we were not to prepare bayonets, but to risk our po-
pularity.
" The King was without Ministers, and we did not
succeed to the speaker because the energetic measures dis-
covered and proposed by him had been refused, but be-
cause he thought that means of persuasion were necessary,
_—that a certain degree of popularity was necessary to
serve the State. He was in the right. It was necessary
not to have popularity, which is too ephemeral a power,
but a long and unshaken opposition against that which
had been destroyed to inspire entire confidence. I bad
only this advantage; but I had it ; for, a stranger at all
times to the restoration, nobody suspected me of attach-
menti
to t."
(The speaker then proceeded to farther details of the
present situation of the country, which lie said had cer-
tainly improved within these four months, notwithstand-
ing the deplorable scenes which had just passed. France,
he said, had an active party in its bosom attached to the
late order of things, but notwithstanding its intrigues, it
will never be a subject of great danger. It may disturp
us for many years, as England was disturbed for 40 years
after the revolution. As for the agitators in the national
and popular party, they are only to be feared at Paris, and
there they have an insurmountable obstacle in the National
Guard. After some observations on the proceedings of the
Government, which he said possessed, in the National
Guard, and in the army, an immense force, besides the opi-
nion of the country, which it has studied in order to satisfy
it, be acknowledged that a great diversity of sentiments
upon important questions was cbsie-ved in the Chamber.) I
He concluded—" In this situation we have not been able to
see very clearly a majority. Yesterday, gentlemen, you
seemed to think that we should ask one of the country.
If you persist in this opinion, which is ours—(Utianimouers
s
cries from the centres ' Yes, yes,')—l shall take the ord
of the King; we shall ask of you the necessary financial
resources,--that is to say, provisional 12ths, and the extra-
ordinary credit of 200 millions ; we shall apply to the
country for its final wish, and we swear, gentlemen, that
it shall be obeyed, and that the majority which it shall pre-
sent shall be heard and respected. The Government will
rest upon it: there will he that harmony which you desire
between a'l the constitutional authorities. In the interval
we engage to preserve entire the deposit of the laws, to
cause them all to be respected, and to repress inexorably,
. and with the utmost rigour, every attempt whatever
against our institutions and the public tranquillity. I shall
have the honour to acquaint you to-morrow with the
I King's orders."
" After this speech, which made a deep impression, the
Moister descended from the tribune, in the midst of an

unequivocal expression of sentiments of approbation from
the whole assembly.
" M. Guizot—The Chamber has appeared to me to re-
gret that the question before it has become exclusively per-
sonal.—(Several voices, 'lt is true !') I also regret it
I had endeavoured to avoid it, and to give to the discussion,
while I found that the Ministry is inculpated, a turn us
disinterested as it was my duty to do. However,' com-
prehend that the question is laid down anew, and precisely
between the Ministry of which I had the honour to make
part and the present Ministry. I understand very well
that the President of the Council has been led to lay it
down in this manner, and I accept it on my side, begging
the Chamber to observe that it was not so laid down by
me. Ido not think that there is no remedy to the evil
which I have pointed out, but I think that the greatness
of the evil ought not to be disseinbled.—(A voice to the
left, ' All the evil comes from you and your party !' A
long interruption ; the Centre cries Order !') I did
not think I had deserved the reproach which has just been
addressed to me. I thought I had demonstrated the
origin of the evil, by saying that the intervention, the glo-
rious intervention, of the popular force in the Govern-
ment, was the true, the principal cause of the present
evils. lan entirely of the opinion of those who think
that the true remedy is that which has just been pointed
out to you—(Sensation)—that which the Chamber has
long invoked.
" From all sides—The dissolution—the dissolution.

On the left—With an electoral law.
" M. Guizot—l and my Hon. Friends have exerted
ourselves to surmount the difficulties,—to indicate the re-
medy,—to apply it; but we have not thought proper to
accept the responsibility of it. The President of the
Council has told you, that we place the question between
the retreat of the Prefect of the Seine and the employ-
ment of the bayonet. We thought of the last means—we
thought that it was necessary to constitute the Govern-
ment, to place it in such a situation that no tumults in the
streets should be possible,—that they should be foreseen
and checked, not the day before or the day after, but three
months b-fore. The majority of the Chamber has done
all that it could to act with the Ministry. The majority
—(A voice on the lef', Put where is it?)—the majority
of the Chamber has not desired the dissolution for these
six months. It has believed and hoped that it could give
to the Government the support which it neeeed.—(Exela-
mations on the left, and interruption.) The Chamber
could not do what it evidently desired. It now asks an.l
requires as a remedy the dissolution which was called for
against it a few days ago. The President of the Council
has just said, that when the new Chamber comes, the ma-
jority will be obeyed. I confess, gentlemen, Ido not like
this word obedience, I do not like that Government should
promise to obey.—(On all sides, ' Very well, very well.')
In fact, if there should come a majority contrary to the

interests of the country, it ought to be dissolved and dis-
solved again. The Government must not engage to obey
any majority whatever, until it has exhausted all the legal
means.

" It was at first believed that the Government might
go on with the Chamber as it existed in the month of
August. This trial has been made for six months. Ano-
ther is now to he made, and this is the dissolution.—

(' Yes, yes.') The Chamber itself calls for this dissolution.
Ido not say that my Hon. Friends and myself would
have been more capable than others of this immense task.
I do not say that if our system had been accepted, we
should have succeeded ; but I do say that the moment we
could not make our system prevail in the Council, it was
our duty to retire; I say that we acted as good citizens in
not accepting the responsibility of a conduct which we
could not hold."

" This speech was followed by long agitation. All the
Deputies engage in conversation with each other : great in-
decision appears in the assembly ; nobody desires to speak,
though many speakers had entered their names. The de-
bate was continued with great animation, in the course of
which the Minister for Foreign Affairs, General Lafayette,
Count Sebastiani, and many other members spoke several
times, and the Chamber at length resolved almost unani-
mously to close the debate.
" The report on the electoral law is to he heard to-
morrow "

(From the Messager des Chambres dated Tuesday.)

PARIS, FEE. 20.-This morning the Sunday worship
was performed as usual in all the parishes of Paris. A
remaining degree of distrust had at first induced the clergy
in some parishes to have the doors of the great churches
shut. The Prefect of the Seine immediately desired that
all the doors should be opened as usual, to avoid even
the least sign of alarm. In this he concurred with the
instructions of the Minister of Ecclesiastical Affairs.
There was a report yesterday, that the Archbishop of
Paris was arrested ; but it was founded in a mistake.
The report of an insurrection in the Tyrol seems to be
confirmed by letters from Switzerland.-Precurseur of
Lyons.
The .Journal du Commerce of Lyons informs us that
Savoy is also in a state of insurrection.
The Semaphore of Marseilles says that news had been
received of an insurrection at Genoa.
FRRNCH FUNDS, PARIS, FRB, 21.-Five 0
per CeBntc.s , 91f. 85c.
90c. SOc. Ssc. 70c. 91f. 40c. 20c. 91f. 90f. 90e. of. 70c. 75c.
90c. 91f. 90f. SOc. The. 75c. 91f. ; Four per Cents. 771. ; Three per
Cents. aBl. sc. 57f. 90c. 58f. 57f. 95c. 57f. 75c. 70c. 60c. 25c. 57E 56f.
SOc. 90c. 57f. 10c. 35c. 57f. ; Bank Shares 1,5201. 1,5001. 1,490 f.
1,500 E; Rente de Naples, 60E 59f. 90c. SOc. 59f. 59f. ‘2.5c. ; Rente
d'F.spagne, 15. ; Royal Spanish Loan, 591 A• Rents Perpetuelle
d'Espagne, 43 42r, 42 42 % 34, % %. 'Exchange on Lon-
don-One month, 25f. 10c.; three months, 25E-Co/as Autnen-
tique.