The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-07 00:00:00

AO USE OF COMMONS, OCTOBER G.

Mr. WALKS moved an address for an account of all
offices, places, situations, or employments in the army,
navy, or civil departments of the State, with all pensions,
retired allowances, reversionary grants and ecclesiastical

preferments held by each of the Peers of the United King-
dom of Great Britain and Ireland, having a seat in Parlia-
ment, and by his family and relations ; specifying the
amount of the pay, salaries, fees, and other emoluments of
each of such offices, places, situations, and employments,
and of such pensions, retired allowances, reversionary
grants,and ecclesiastical preferment srespectively.—Ordered.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from John Russell,
complaining of misconduct on the part of Mr. Hoskins, a
magistrate of Marylebone. The petitioner's son was
driving a hoop, when be was taken before Mr. Hoskins,
who bound the boy's father in twenty pounds that
the boy (ten years of age) should keep the peace
for twelve months ; also two petitions from John Joseph
Stoekdale, complaining that Lord Vqnferd, when Lord
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, told him in that
Court that he might apply to any Court of Justice, but
he would get no redress on account of his infamy.
Lord INGESTRIE presented a petition against the use
of molasses, and one from forty Clergymen in the diocese
of Ossory and Ferns, complaining that they could not
recover their tithes, in consequence of a combination en-
tered into by the inhabitants of that district.
Colonel CONOLLY bore testimony to the truth of the
petition. He knew that many of the Clergymen of Ire-
land were suffering the severest privations possible to
be borne by any human beings, on account of not
being able to get their tithes, either by asking for
them mildly, or distraining for them in due comae of
law—there was a wide spreading combination in that poor
county to resist the payment of tithes, and if the Govern-
ment did not interfere, the landlords would be the next to
suffer.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT would not deny that such
evils did exist, but the Hon. Gentleman had not stated
what remedy he proposed to meet them--one of the com-
plaints was that no person would buy the goods and
cattle distrained fur tithes, but could the Government
oblige any person to buy against their will, the Hor;
Gentleman ought to bring forward a remedy.
Mr. WM. YATES PEEL protested against doctrines
which be had heard put forth in that House, that the
Clergy had not as good a right to their tithes as any Ho-
nourable Member to the rents of his estate. He (Mr.
Peel) contended that they certainly had, and that
they ought to be supported both by Government and
that House. The system complained of was what was to
be looked for on a greater scale under the Reform Bill, and
Hon. Gentlemen would yet see, if the days of spoliation
and robbery came on, that the system would extend to all
kinds of property as well as tithes.
Mr. BLAKENEY said that the clergymen themselves
were the great cause of the present system, by their mode
of collecting these tithes.
Captain GORDON attributed the resistance to tithes to
the writings of Dr. Doyle, and the speeches of several Ro-
man Catholic clergymen in the south of Ireland.
Mr. H. Grattan, Dr. Lefroy, Mr. Dawson, and Mr.
Sheil, made a few observations.
Mr. STANLEY expressed his disapprobation, on the
part of the Government, of the proceedings complained of.
He could assure the House, that so far as the assistance of
Government could be given to the assertion of the just
rights of the Clergy, they had already left no means in
their power untried. He was aware that an extensive
combination against the collection of tithes had existed
and been carried on for a considerable time; but the peti•
tion before the House prayed for that relief which the Go-
vernment could not give without the assistance of the Le-
gislature. He did not say that some legislative measure
ought to be founded on a full consideration of the whole
-object, not as affecting these clergymen only, but as affect-
ing the rights and interests of the church at large. The
Government in Ireland had given, and would give, all the
assistance in their power to every class of his Majesty's
subjects to enable them to enforce their just rights, but
this petition called upon them to do that. which they had
no power to do without the assistance of the Legislature.
Mr. GOULBURN supported the petition.
After a few words from Mr. S. RICE,
The petition was ordered to be laid on the table, and to
be printed.
Colonel PERCIVAL begged to inquire of the Right
Hon. Secretary for Ireland, whether it was intended to fill
up the vacancy in the situation of Judge of the Admiralty
Court in Ireland, or to abolish the office.
Mr. STANLEY could assure the Hon. and Gallant
Member that the filling up of the vacancy, if it should be
filled up, would be without prejudice to the abolition of
the office, or to the reduction of the fees.
Colonel PERCIVAL moved an address to his Majesty,
praying that such of the newly-appointed Lords Lieutenant
of counties in Ireland as were not resident within their
respective counties might be removed.
Mr. YOUNG, in seconding the motion, wished to ob-
serve that the Nobleman appointed to the county of Do-
negal had not seen the county for twenty years. He had
I no seat in the county, and knew nothing of its interests or
business.
Mr. STANLEY complained of the mis-statemente
made upon this subject, in order to form the foundation of
attacks upon Ministers. Government had selected, as
Lords Lieutenant of counties, persons who, if not resident
in the county, had property in it, and were residing near
it, and the exceptions to the rule were only cases of neces-
sity. Government had not been influenced by any prin-
ciples of favouritism or of party. Longford, Fermanagh,
Roscommon, Clare, Tyrone, and Wicklow would show
that Government had not been influenced by politics,
but had filled the Lieutenantcies solely with persons
who were most fit for the office. It was only when
a Lord-Lieutenant left Ireland that his place was
filled up, and Ministers were not bound to confine
the appointments to persons actually within the county.
In England the Duke of Beaufort was Lord-Lieutenant of
three counties ; Lord Lonsdale of two; Sir W. W. Wynn
of two, and it was not supposed that these persons could
be resident at three places or two places at once. It was
complained that Government had appointed Lord Dun-
cannon to the county of Carlow ; but that nobleman had
a property in the county, and was popular and connected
with its interests and feelings, and his being in the office
Of Woods and Forests could not be deemed an objection,
for the Duke of Wellington was Lord-Lieutenant of Hamp-
shire, whilst he was First Lord of the Treasury, and the
Duke of Manchester did not consider it improper that he
should be Lord Lieutenant of an English county whilst re-
sident in Jamaica. In consequence of the peculiar bias in
the opinions of Lord Farnham, it was not deemed proper
i possessed great property in
to appoint him to the Lieutenancy of the county of Cavan.
In Meath, Lord Fingal did not feel any jealousy at the ap-
pointment of Lord Darnley. There was not a Peer resident
in
nhapt Conuegnatyl,
32 counties, there were only five cases in which the
but Lord
hga the
Donreefgsore been appointed. Of the

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itave been obliged to deviate from the strict
644
.14;;-: ivies ttl!erliad own.
Maxsvitn pported the motion.
Mr. BLACKNEIri defended the appointments made by
Ministers.
•Sir O,WARRENDER thought it a bad precedent for
the House to set the example of interfering with the pre-
7j, negative of the Crown, and the present motion would have
that effect; he should therefore oppose it, and support his
Majesty's Ministers.
Sir J. NEWPORT defended the appointment of the
Lord Lieutenant of Wexford.
Lord TULLAMORE maintained that in the county of
Carlow Ministers had grossly violated their own principles
by passing over the gentry of that county in favour of a
Nobleman who resided so far from the county. Ministers
had even passed over one Nobleman of Carlow who was
descended from the ancient Kings of Ireland.—(A laugh.)
The Noble Lord maintained that Ministers had acted with
equal injustice in the cases of many other counties.
Mr. LAMBERT defended the appointments in Wexford.
Sir R. BATESON supported the motion.
Mr. CONOLLY would not have given his support to
the Bill if be had thought that Ministers would have filled
up the appointments as they had done. He conceived that
Ministers had not acted in a spirit of good faith.
Mr. CRESSET PELHAM supported the motion.
Sir J. M. DOYLE defended the appointment in the
county of Carlow.
The O'CONOR DON objected to the appointment in
the county of Roscommon.
Mr. LEFROY maintained that the Government in
filling up the appointments had not acted consistently with
the professions they made when they brought in the Bill.
Mr. CRAMPTON denied that the Government had
-violated any pripciple, or broken any faith ; bet, on the
contrary, it had taken the most scrupulous care to select
to the Lieutenantcy persons the most competent to answer
the objects of the law. Of the 32 counties only four in-
stances had been alleged of the appointment of absentees,
and in every such instance, the party had a large property
in the county, and was resident near it ; and yet, on these
grounds, his Majesty was to be interfered with in the ex.
ereise of his prerogative. The motion had originated in
disappointed feelings.
Mr. CALLAGHAN defended the appointments which
Ministers had made, particularly in the ease of Wexford.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL bad been made a convert to the
law by the course the debate had taken. The debate of
that night had convinced him that the conduct of Ministers
on this subject ought to be supported. A great majority
of the appointment' were grateful to the people.
After a few sr.rords from Colonel NRCIVAL, the motion
was withdrewn.
Lord ALTHORP moved the order of the day for the
second, reading of the Scotch Exchequer Regulation Bill.
A conversation arose between Mr. Keith Douglas, Mr.
Hume, Mr. Herries, Mr. Burge, and Lord Althorp, re-
lative to the bringing forward the motion for the appoint-
ment of a Committee upon West Indian affairs. Lord
Althorp said, that he had no intention to make any state-
ment upon the subject; all be intended to do was to move
for the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry, and that
might be done at the latter end of the evening, without
any inconvenience. A general discussion was never his
intention, nor had he any design to slight the subject by
postponing the motion for a Committee.
Mr. HERRIES thought that the motion for the Com-
mittee would require many explanations, and it was a mere
mockery of the subject to postpone the motion till late
at night. The House then proceeded to the consideration
of the

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SCOTCH EXCHEQUER REGULATION BILL.
Mr. KENNEDY (in the absenceof the Lord Advocate)
traced the history of the Exchequer Court of Scotland. The
object of the Bill was to empower all the Members of the
Court to retire, at otherwise one, two, or three of the Barons
might discharge: the duties of the Court, or they should be
performed by the Judges of Session. This abolition of the
Court would eventually effect a great saving. The causes
tried before this Court in 1827, 1828, and 1829, were five
tkfentled and 55 undefended causes ; and since the retire-
ment of Baron Shepherd, there had been only one defended
'cause to be tried. In the last IS months there had been
but one argument heard, and that had lasted only one hour.
One part of the business of the Court was to revise charters,
but this occupied only six hours in each term. The ex-
penditure of the Sheriffs had been discharged by the re-
venue of Scotland, but it was now proposed that this
should be voted by Parliament. The Treasury business of
Scotland was very small, and consisted principally of audit-
ing the revenue. This was substantially conducted by the
King's Remembrancer. whose duty might be revised by
the Treasury in London, and the expences of the Scotch
Treasury might be saved. This was the state of the
Court, and it was necessary either to give the Court some
substantial or actual business, or to abolish it altogether.
The Hon. Gentleman in conclusion urged that the
present measure came to that House recommended by the
sanction of the other branch of the Legislature, which
afforded a fair presumption of its expediency, seeing that
it had passed sub silentio, no objection whatever having
been urged against it by any of their Lordships, many of
whom were of course fully acquainted with the merits of
the question and the interests which it involved.
Sir G. CLERK inquired what arrangement the Noble
Lord intended to adopt with reference to the present
Judges.
Lord ALTHORP replied, that as the Chief Baron had
only held office for a short period, it was proposed to dis
place him with a retiring salary amounting to but one-half
his remuneration while on the bench.
Mr. HUZsIE thought the pension extravagant at a period
like the present, when ecanomy was so necessary, and sug-
gested that it might be saved by transferring his Lordship to
the Court of Bankruptcy.
Mr. R. FERGUSSON advocated the proposition of
Ministers, which he considered, under existing circum-
stances, to be perfectly justifiable, and suggested that the
House, if appealed to, would probably sanction a larger re•
tiring salary than that now in contemplation.
Sir G. W.A.IIRENDER was by no means prepared to
concur in the policy of the Bill before the House, as he
believed that the abolition of this Court might be very dis-
advantageous to the interests of the public.
Sir W. RAE was of opinion, and his opinion was en-
tirely disinterested, that the House was not yet in posses-
sion of sufficient information to justify their acceding to
no serious a change in the judicature of Scotland. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then went at length into the de-
tails of the business which had been transacted in this
Court for a series of years, for the purpose of showing
that it had not been so inefficient as would appear from the
statements of gentlemen opposite, and referred to the im-
plied approbation of the late and present Lord Chan-
cellors during the discussions which the subject had un-
dergone in Parliament already. If Ministers resisted an
inquiry, they would act discreditably to their own charac-
ters, and disrespectfully to Scotland.
Mr. S. CAMPBELL conceived that all the causes now
disposed of by this tribunal might he beard with equal ad-
vantage in the Court of Session, and justified the proposed
amount of slr. Abercromby's retiring salary.
On the question that the Bill be now read a second time,
Sir G. CLERK again protested against the abolition of
the office without further information to satisfy the House
as to the expediency of the change. The Right Hon.
Baronet also argued at some length that the salaries of the
Judges of the Court of Session should be increased, in pro-
portion to the increase of their ditties.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL vindicated the policy
of the measure, and mentioned the fact that Sir Samuel
Shepherd had resided in London ten months in the year,
a length of absence perfectly consistent with the discharge
of his judicial function.. This, he submitted, 'was a deci-
sive proof that the post which he could hold on such easy
terms was in reality equivalent to a sinecure.
An HON. MEMBER. having moved an adjournment of
the debate to this day, a short conversation ensued there-
open, and the motion was eventually agreed to.
WEST INDIES.
Mr. P. THOMSON rose, pursuant to notice, to move
the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the
commercial state of the West India colonies. Government
had resorted to this proceeding from a confessed inability
which they might reasonably hope
to propose any plan by
to relieve the present distress of the West Indian interest.
It might be remembered that the Hon. Member for Dum-
fries, on a former discussion respecting the Sugar Refinery
Bill, had moved for the appointment of a Committee to
take this subject into consideration, and afterwards with-
draw his motion. Subsequently, however, be had pro-
posed to refer to a Committee of the whole House all
the papers and documents which he bad already sub-
mitted to the Board of Trade. It was in consequence
of that wish so expressed that he (Mr. P. Thomson) had
given notice of the motion which he now begged to offer
to the attention of the House,— a motion which there was
reason to believe would be pretty generally approved of
by the parties on whose interests it was intended to
operate. The object of inquiry was simply and exclu-
sively the present commercial condition of the West
Indies, and as he did not anticipate that he should en-
counter any objection, he thought it unnecessary to detain
the House with any further observations.
The motion having been put from
the chair,
Mr. GOULBURN expressed his surprise that a question
of such moment should be obtruded upon the House at
such an unseasonable hour.—(Hear.)
Mr. K. DOUGLAS could not but feel some disappoint-

ment at finding that a measure of such a nature should he
proposed at a moment when there were so many apparent
indications that the session was just drawing to a dose.
Lord ALTHORP could not concur with the Hon.
Member in assuming that the Session was sonear a ant-
elusion. On the contrary, he anticipated that it would
still be protracted for a considerable time Longer—(Cheers
from the Ministerial benches)---and at least for a sufficient
space to afford ample opportunity for the inquiry now pro-
posed. How that inquiry might terminate was not for
him to predict, but he did hope that it would be produc--
tive of those beneficial effects which he, in common with
some Hon. Gentlemen opposite, so earnestly desited-.
Mr. IRVING maintained that no material advantage
during the present year tonld be derived from the inquiry
in contemplation, but still thought it desirable that such a
Committee should he appointed, as it might eventually lead
to some satisfactory result.—(Hear.)
Mr. BURGE should move the adjournment of the de-
bate to this day, which the Hon. Member did accordingly.
Mr. BERNAL conceived it impolitic of the West In-
dian interest to resist the eppointtnent of the proposed
Committee, although pet.haps an inquiry by the other
House might b' preferable, as being the more convenient
of the two, he therefore advised the Hon. Gentleman to
withdraw his motion of adjournment.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
Mr. COURTENAY supported the motion of the Hon.
Member for Eve, and inquired whether it was meant that
the Committee should enter into the question between
master and slave.

Lord ALTHOHP made answer in the negative.
Sir C. IFORBES and Mr. EWART approved of the ap-
pototment of the Committee.
Mr. IRVING asked whether Ministers intended to send
out the proposed Orde`c in Council to the Colonies ?
Lord HOWICk, in reply, believed it was the intention
of Ministers to recommend it to the adoption of the Colo-
nial Assemblies.
Mr. HUME assured the Noble Lord that it was im-
possible to devise ti more likely mode of kindling a civil
war in tht, West Indies.
Mr. iIURGE then withdrew his motion, and a Com-
mittee was appointed, and named accordingly.
The other Orders having been disposed of, the House
adjourned at Half-past Three o'clock.