The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-14 00:00:00

THE LAW OF LIBEL.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from Joseph Townsend
Holman, who had been sentenced by the Court of King's
Bench to six months' imprisonment on an indietmentfor
T he Hon. Member strongly reprobated the existence of a law
for punishing individuals for writing what they could
prove to be the truth, and stated that in his opinion a man
who dared not resort to a civil process, in which the truth
of the matter might be put in evidence, should not be
allowed the privilege of proceeding criminally, unless
Ca., law were altered so as to allow the truth
of the matter of complaint to be put in evidence.
--(Hear, hear.) The petitioner stated, that in giving
judgment the learned Judges stated that the Court had sot
tha power to entertain for a moment the truth of the mat-
ter, although he had affidavits to support every thing he
had written. Us therefore prayed for an alteration in the
law, so that in all prosecutions for libel the truth of the
sv,li.ject might be put in issue. The Honourable
Member said he fttily concurred in the prayer of the
petition, and hoped soon to see an alteration in the law.
The petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be
printe.l,

Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the Eastern
branch of the National Union, sitting at the Pitt's Head,
Pitt-.street, Bethnal-green, expressing the sorrow of the
petitioners at the sentence passed upon the Rev. R. Tav-
)ai, and praying for a repeal of the law imposin: punish-
ment on persona for expressing their religious opinions.._.
The judgment on Mr. Taylor was in his (Mr. II's) opinion
vindictive and cruel, and greatly aggravated by the priva-
tions which that individual was compelled to cuff r in prison.
LordG, LENNOX presented a petition from a lady, named
Maria Harding, residing in the parish of Westnourne, in
Sussex, stating, that during the disturbances in November
last she bad a thrashing machine broken, and upon her
applying to the Magistrates for compensation out of the
county rate, she was informed that thrashing machines
were not within the statute of 7th and tith Geo. IV., she
therefore prayed for compensation.
in A 1 .
NovemberH U 1 E
last, sa i
that thrashing machines were within the statute% zaild he
sent
suggested that Vukill 10.14 (George LeAnox)
e ud
de r s pl, thatar, expresslyo r Lord l iell:Ot
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read that circular. If that were so, then it was a dere-
liction of duty in the Magistrates to refuse compensation ;
but if thrashing machines were not equally protected as
other property, not a moment should be lost in bringing in
a Bill to remedy the evil.
Mr. HUNT said, if such a Bill were brought in, lie
hoped one would also be introduced to compel the fanners
to employ all the labourers. He very much regretted to
see thrashing machines used while so many labourers
were out of employ.
Mr. S. RICE observed there could not be a possibility
of doubt that thrashing machines were under the same
protection as other property.—(Hear, hear.) It might
be necessary for the injured party to adopt certain
proceedings, which perhaps this lady had not adopted, but
he was satisfied that thrashing machines were included in
the Act of Parliament the same as other property. He
regretted to hear the observations of the Hon. Member for
Preston (Mr. Hunt) against thrashing machines, which
were certainly of great service in the country.
Mr. C. FERGUSON was sure that there was no doc-
trine more dangerous than that uttered by the Hon. Aleni-
ber for Preston. There wag no point in political economy
so plain as that all machines which shortened labour in-
creased the means of employment.
Lord G. LENNOX read some portion of the petition,
to show that the petitioner had taken the best mode of
laying her claim before the Magistrates, and observed that
he knew an opinion prevailed with some Magistrates, that
thrashing machines certainly did not come within the Act
of Parliament.
Mr. HUNT said the best mode of giving employment to
the poor was to lower the rents and taxes. He denied the
statement of the lion. Member for Leicester (Mr. C. Fer-
guson), that thrashing machines would give employment
to the poor.
Mr. HUME deprecated the statement of the lion.
Member for Preston, as calculated to encourage any had
feeling that the labourers might entertain against machinery.
Mr. HUNT explained. He did not wish to throw out
any thing either to instigate or justify the breaking of
thrashing machines, but would only again state to the
House, as a matter of fact, that where the machinery had
been done away with the labourers were now all em-
ployed.
Lord INGESTRIE said his attention had been particu-
larly called to this subject, in consequence of having lately
had occasion to pass through the county of Wilts,
where extensive fires bad taken place. On one occasion
a farmer had erected on Saturday evening a thrashing
machine, and brought it into action on Monday morning,
and his property was in consequence destroyed, so that ti e
man was completely reduced to ruin and want. Ile
(Lord Ingestrie) would take that opportunity to offer
two or three remarks by way of friendly advice to the
farmers, and he would tell them that whenever
there was a great preponderance of labourers they would
do well to abstain from the use of machines as much as pox-
eible ; while he would admonish the labouring class them-
selves on no occasion to attempt to gain with violence
what would lie secured to them he knew without it,—tl e
maintenance of their just rights and privileges.
Mr. ROBINSON thought the matter demanded the
prompt and judicious consideration of the Legislature ; and
if they could nut do away with machinery, some other
means ought to be devised by which a growing and
a pregnant evil in the country would be diminished.
The plain, and obvious, and only remedy, in his opi -
nien, was to faci'itate, by reduction of taxation, and
an alteration in the Corn Laws, the means of gaining sub-
sistence for the poor. He had received information from a
quarter in the county of Kent to the effect that burnings
bad again commenced, and he hoped, therefore, that im-
mediate attention would be given to the subject by Govern-
ment.
Mr. HODGES was understood to say that although he
was connected with the county of Kent, lie had received
no such information respecting a renewal of the disgraceful
scenes of last year.
Mr. PAGET said, that another subject brought under
the notice of the House by this petition respected the qua-
lification for Magistrates and Justices of the Pence.
Very complicated matters were frequently submitted
for their determination, and as the present qualification
was only 100/., lie hoped that the Government would
require some more considerable, if not legal or judicial,
qualification.
Mr. C. PELHAM was inaudible in the gallery.
Lord GEORGE LENNOX hoped that, as the ques-
tion was now proposed whether thrashing machines should
be as much under the protection of the law as any other
species of property, some definite answer would be given
by one of the law advisers of the Crown.
Sir 11. VYVYAN said the petition related to a subject
on which a considerable variety of opinion had prevailed.
Whatever might be the advantages of the present increase of
machinery, and he was not disposed to ur.der-rate their
value, certain be was that the poor had not derived all
the advantages therefrom which they ought to have
had. Whatever the remedy might be, or whether it was in
the competency of the Legislature in the existing state
of things to devise one, he could not well divine. His
opinion was, that if the present generation might sonic
way or other suffer from the increase of machinery, the
next would enjoy all its advantages.
After a few observations from Mr. PAGET the peti-
tion wag ordered to be printed.
Mr. SPRING RICE brought up papers connected
with the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates. The Right Hon.
Gentleman also moved for a new writ for Flintehire, in
the place of Sir Edward M. Lloyd, raised to the Peerage.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN presented a petition from
several individuals on the subject of the Reform Bill.
Sir H. IIARDINGE gave notice of his intention to
move for papers on Thursday next, relative to the promo-
tions in the Army, and the reduction of the Half• Pay List.
Lord INGESTRIE presented a petition from the coal-
meters of Dublin, praying for compensation fur the loss of
their fees.
Mr. CRAINIPTO'N (the Solicitor-General for Ireland),
though be would not say the coal-meters of Dublin bail a
legal claim to compensation, yet could not but think they
bad an equitable one.
Mr. SPRING RICE could not conceive what right
these individuals had to compensation. He thought it
rather too hard to say, when Government bad re-
pealed a tax for the good of the public, that the
parties who bail never been employed by the Revel-me
should be allowed to set up a claim for compensation.
LEFROY considered the petitioners entitled to
what they prayed for.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT could not see on what ground
Hon. Members held these parties entitled to what they
asked, being persons who had received no wrong by the
repeal of the coal duties.
Mr. SHAW contended that the coal-meters were the
servants of the Government, for whom their exertions
had saved upwards of 12,0001., and that therefore they
were entitled to compensation.
After a few words from Mr. O'CONNELL, who could
not agree with the Recorder of Dublin, the petition was
ordered to be printed.
Mr. ROBINSON, previous to submitting the motiam
to the House of which he had given notice, and which he
feared he should be obliged to do in the absence of the
Secretary for the Colonies, wished to present a petition
from Waterford praying the House to take into considera-
tion the state of the island of Newfoundland. The peti-
tioners stated that some years ago their business was ex-
tremely extensive with that island, but that in com.equenee
of its present state that trade bad been considerably de-
creased.—Petition ordered to be printed.
The HoN. Mratnert then begged the attention of the
House to a statement which he was compelled to bring fere.
ward in consequence of the unsatisfactory answer which
the Noble Lord opposite had given Bien on a former night ;
when be stated that be was about bringing before their
consideration the interests of one hundred thousand
of his fellow-subjects, who, having no local Legislature of
their own, were obliged to seek redress of injuries from
Parliament, be felt confident he should receive a patient
bearing. He had for three Sessions endeavoured to bring
this subject forward, but the pressure of business of great
importance prevented him, and if he consented to postpone
it now it would be an abandonment of the subject for
another Session; he could not consent again to postpone
it. It was well known that Newfoundland was one
of the most ancient possessions of his Majesty; and al-
though it certainly was not iris intention to charge the
present, or indeed any former Governor, with improper
conduct, he must say that, if it had had a local Legislature
of its own, it mould have now become one of the
most useful and flourishing colonies.-.._( Hear, hear.) In
the early period of its history this colony was treated
merely as a non-resident fishing colony, and the object of
the few Acts of Parliament relating to it was merely
to encourage persons to go there in the spring for
the purposes of fishing, and to return home
in autumn, without encouraging any permanent
residence there. At length, in spite of the
severe laws which existed,. one of which prevented persons
building houses in the colony, many persons went to reside
there. The Governors, who were generally Admirals,
living
but three months in the summer time in ti ci
ony, h
went
so far as to pull down sonic of the houses, and
ld p
read to
off others. The Hon. :limber said, he cou. the
House a memorial addressed to the Governor, by to highly
respectable individual, praying to be
the Governor
allowed build
a pig-stye, and he bad the answer of .
:secretary, in which the Governor's permission W 35 'l,rive

This colony had been always considered an Admiralty co-
lony, the Governors being appointed by the Admiralty, and
hence some difficulty arose in effectieg an improvement
in it. Subsequently two Acts were passed of a tempo-
rary nature, namely the sth of Geo. IV., cap. 51,
fur the encouragement of the fishery, and in the same year,
cap. 57, for the better administration of justice. It would
have been supposed that previous to the expiration of those
Acts the Government would have inquired how they had
operated with a view of extending or altering them, but
notwithstanding the remonstrances that had been mule,
showing the benefits that would arise from various
alterations, a short Act was introduced to extend
the two former for a period of three years and
a half, and would the House believe that such
had bee❑ the languor of the Government that
the colony had been with t any law to govern it for
the space of six weeks.—(lM) The Hon. Member then
read a memorial which had been addressed last year by
the inhabitants to his Majesty, praying to be placed on
the same footing as the other colonies, by having the
privilege of a local Legislature. He knew from personal
communication with his Majesty, who stated that he re-
collected having been once in Newfoundland, that his
Majesty sincerely sympathized with the inhabitants.
He (Mr. Robinson) asked the Hon. I-louse in what
state they would expect this island to be while it was ex
eluded from the advantages possessed by the other' colonies.
.—(Hear.) It was his intention to move an address to the
Crown on this subject. The Noble Lord opposite he knew
objected to giving a local Legislature, from the fear that, as
he thought there was but one town of importance in the
island, namely, that of St. John's, that town
would possess advantages over all other parts of
the island. The Noble Lord was mistaken in that, for
there were other towns which rendered it highly impro-
bable that St. John's would possess any preponderance in
the legislation. He was of opinion that the Government
was bound to make up their mind at once, for there
was no alternative now but to give the same benefits
to this island as was possessed by the other colonies.
The present state of the colony was one of peculiar hard-
ship ; and although the land was capable of extensive
cultivation, imports, to a large amount, of potatoes
had been made from the neighbouring provinces of Prince
Edwards' Island, Nova Scotia, and even Ireland. An-
other very great disadvantage under which the people
there laboured, was the present uncertainty of the law.
Such was their situation that the officers were legislators
and Judges, to make and then decide upon the law.
Another part of the proposition he should submit, was to
bring forward the long disputed question as to the rights of
fishery in that colony belonging to British subjects, concur-
rently with the French, so that it might be settled. This
was certainly of very great importance to that colony,
and the inhabitants anxious for its settlement had, at their
expence, fitted out a vessel to determine their rights. The
Commander received instructions to persevere until forced to
abandon what was called the French coast. He failed ; no
French officer of authority was found in the port, but
the French fishermen considering that they had the
exclusive right of fishery would only permit him to fish
there by courtesy. He stating his commands, that his
object was to establish that right, was afterwards
ejected and compelled by a French naval commander to
quit the station and proceed to Labrador. This colony
was of very great value to this country ; so much so
that the great Lord Chatham used to say it was worth go-
ing to war for. He did not say so, but it was of consequence,
and it was one of the articles of our treaty with France
that Great Britain should hold that colony. He hoped
the House would concur with him in the address he should
move to his Majesty, although there was a party in
this country who, though anxious to make all they could
by trading thither, had nosympathywith the colonists. The
colony had not hitherto given much trouble to this country,
and did not look, like Canada and others, for any particular
part of its produce. He hoped, therefore, that they would
have legislation given to them over their own affairs. The
Hon. Member concluded by moving an humble address to
his Majesty, praying that he may be pleased to grant
to the ancient and loyal colony of Newfoundland a Con-
stitutional Legislative Government, similar to those enjoyed
by his ntjesty's North American colonies, and as nearly as
possible in accordance with the principles of the British
Constitution, praying also, that the right of the British
subjects there, under existing treatie, might be ascertained.
Mr. Dixost seconded the address.

Lord HOWICK felt himself embarrassed both by the time
and manner in which the Hon. Member had brought forwat d
his motion. It was well known that this day had been re-
-served by the common consent of the House to be set apart
for the object of receiving the report upon the Reform Bill.
He was, therefore, under great difficulty in being called
upon so inopportunely to decide such a question, or to vin-
dicate the policy which Ministers, in the short time they
had been in office, had thought it their duty to pursue.
The answer he had given to the Hon. Member on a former
occasion, had given great satisfaction to the principal part
of the kingdom which had the greatest commercial con-
nexion with Newfoundland. To his knowledge it had not
been a long time that the Hon. Member himself had been
able to make up his mind upon the propriety of what he
❑ow advised, and the House might, therefore, very justly
infer that the question had been fraught with difficulties,
land that it had not been very long that the colonists had
been in a state to receive a legislative assembly. It was
not unreasonable that he should ask the Hon. Member to
postpone his motion for the present Session. The recent
Acts under which Newfoundland had been governed, al-
though they had not answered every exigency, had, ne-
vertheless, greatly benefitted the colony. It was true
that they had required modifications, and be was per-
fectly ready to acknowledge that the time bad arrived in
which the people of Newfoundland must be intrusted with
a considerable share in the administration of their
own affairs, and in the next Session of Parliament the
subject would of necessity be brought before the House by
the expiration of the existing laws. There was a difficulty
in funning any system that would not tend to throw the
whole power into the bands of the people of St. John's,
to the prejudice of other parts of the colony. The inha-
liitants of Newfoundland were so scattered, that it was
impossible for them to have any share in the representa-
tion. In 1827 the total number of permanent resident

inhabitants were 36,000, and of these only 11,900 were
resident at St. John's, and the remainder were distributed

in a great number of villages and places of which the po-
pulation was individually very small. Between sixty and
seventy of those small places contained more than two •thirds
of the inhabitants, and they were cut off from all commu-
nication with St. John's for six months of the year. The
Governor of Newfoundland was shortly to come over to
this country, and his local information would assist his
Majesty's Ministers in the inquiries which they felt it their
duty to pursue, before they came to a final adjustment of
the question. For these reasons be thought the Hon.
Member ought not to prejudice the subject by pressing the
motion, and he should feel it his duty to move the previous
question.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was extremely anxious for the
attainment of the object which the motion had in view;
but he felt that the attainment of that object would be very
much promoted by withdrawing the motion for the present.
Mr. HUME considered the proposition involved in his
lion. Friend's motion to be one of so simple and obvious
a nature, and one, t' )6, ED unobjectionable in principle,
that he could not well see on what grounds a Ministry,
professing liberal principles, and the majority of the mem-
bers of which bad already expressed a decided opinion in
favour of that principle, could withhold their assent front
it. For, what was the proposition? Simply that the
inhabitants of Newfoundland, numbering at least 80,000,
should, by their own representative L.lislature, superintend
the management of their own domestic affairs at their own
,xpense.-I,Elear.) The expense of the present vicious
system, which was admitted by the Noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer by his vote of last year in favour of a mo-
tion similar to that then before the House to be quite in-
adequate to the wants and interests of the colony, cost the
country something like 30,0001. a year, for some years
hack, and even this Session 12,0001. had been voted for
the charge of the Newfoundland Government ; all of
which would be saved to the country by the motion of his
Hon. Friend, besides that an important colony would be
permitted, toe the first time, to participate in the ad-
vantages of good government. But, says the Noble Lord
(How ick,) there are local difficulties in the way of his
Hon. Friend's motion which rendered it expedient for the
house to pause before they sanctioned it ; and besides,
the merchants of Poole were opposed to it. But surely
these difficulties were not insurmountable ; the rather,
when they had experience of the ease and advantages of
bestowing local Legislatures in islands and colonies far in-
ferior in population—Neves and St. Mitt's, for example,
with their population of from 8,000 to Io,ooo—to New.
foundland. Wherever there was a local Legislature the
beneficial results were seen in an efficient, and cheap, and

*elf-defraying Government.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON was friendly to the principle of
the taotion, but not prepared, in the absence of full infor-
mation, to act upon it at once. He therefore would sug-
gest to his Hon. Friend to withdraw his motion in its pre-
Aer.t form, and give notice of an early day for referring the
whole subject to a Select Committee of Inquiry.--(Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP need not remind the House that there
wis a great difference between a motion for a Committee of
inquiry and that before the House. With respect to the
the latter, all he could say was, that as a member of the
Government be could not assent to it, because in bin oth.

dal capacity he was aware that the subject was at that mo-
ment, and had been for some time, under the anxious
i con-
sideration of Ministers, who expected to be able, if not n the
present, certainly in the next session, to come forward with
a measure granting the colony of Newfoundland all such
representative and civil institutions as were compatible
with their colonial existence and that local circumstances
could permit.—(Hear.) There might be a difference of
opinion as to the means or form by which they hoped
to attain this desirable object, as well as a dif-
ference between their machinery and that proposed by the
Hon. Member, but the end that both had in view was,
lie
was sure, precisely the same.—(Hear.) With such !nten-
tions, therefore, on the part of the Government, it was
plain that the Hon. Member's motion would be, to say the
least, supererogatory. As to the suggestion for a Select
Committee, however, he did not entertain the same objec-
tion, and therefore should the Hon. Member, on due no-
tice, move for such a Committee, he would not offer to it
any opposition on the part of Ministers.—(Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE trusted a broad view of the sub-
ject in all its bearings would be taken, and that Ministers
would not he unduly influenced by the one-sided statements
of Judges and Governors.
Lord HOWICK agreed with his lion. Friend, and had
only to add, in explanation, that all his objections were as
to a question of time founded on local difficulties.
Mr. O'CONNELL took the same view of the subject
as the Hon. Member for Middlesex, and could not but feel
thankful to Ministers for their promise of a better govern-
ment of Newfoundland.
Mr. C. PELHAM conceived the present one of the
most important subjects that could come under their con-
sideration, and was glad that it was viewed in the same
light by the House and Ministers. The fishery banks of
Newfoundland would form a mine of colonial and national
wealth, under a, good system of government.
Mr. BURGE could nut but lament the extreme igno-
r time which the Noble Under Colonial Secretary's speech
displayed, of not only the localities of Newfoundland, but
of the most familiar facts and principles in our colonial
policy. The very objection which the Noble Lord raised
to granting Newfoundland a Representative Assembly,
founded on the circumstance of the distance of the two
chief towns of the island, applied to every colony in our
possession which enjoyed such a local Legislature.—(Hear.)
And then, if nine months were not enough to determine
the best form of representative Legislature for that island,
with what face could Ministers complain of the delay of
a couple of months as to the far more important measure
of a new Constitution then in progress in that House?
Mr. ROBINSON felt this difficulty in withdrawing
his motion as suggested—as it seemed to be the sense of
the House—that the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer
had given no pledge, on the part of Ministers, that they
would in the next Session take it upon themselves to ac-
complish the object. —( Hear.) If, therefore, the Noble
Lord pledged himself, that if on consideration it should
appear inexpedient to Ministers to propose the intro-
duction of a local Legislature into the colony of Newfound-
land, he would next Session consent, on the part of Mi-
nisters, to his (Mr. Robinson's) obtaining a Committee of
Inquiry into the subject, he would withdraw his present
motion; but without such a pledge he felt it due to him-
self to press his motion.
Lord ALTHORP could not pledge himself to any p ir-
ticular plan or measure with respect to Newfoundland ;
but would repeat that Ministers would next Session feel
it their duty to propose a measure extending to that colony
as much freedom as was compatible with local circum-
stances.—(Hear, hear.) If that measure should fail in
its object, then there would he no hesitation to the ap-
pointment of a Committee to inquire into the circum-
stances or causes of that failure.—( Hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON hail every confidence in the Noble
Lord's declaration, and therefore would withdraw his
motion. He must observe, however, that the Noble Un-
der Colonial Secretary had passed over his remarks with
respect to the claims of the French to concurrent right of
fishery.
Loid HOWICK said his silence proceeded from inad-
vertence. All the answer he could then give was, that the
subject was under discussion between the English and
French Governments.
The motion was then withdrawn.
On the motion of Mr. Huata a return was ordered of
the copy of the report of the Commissioners of Inquiry on
the Universities of Scotland ; also a copy of the report of
Mr. Richards to the Colonial Office, touching the Crown
lands of, and emigration to, Canada; and returns of the
number of emigrants from the United Kingdom to the
United States, the North American colonies, the Cape of
Good Hope, the Swan River, New South Wales, and
Van Dieman's Land, within the last seven years,—specify-
ing the number to each colony, place whence they sliled,
and other particulars.
Lord ALTHORP doubted very much if the means ex-
isted for producing these last returns. If there did, lie
had no objection to the motion.
Mr. HUME said the Act of George IV., regulating
ernigi ation, contained a provision which rendered the pro-
duction of the returns a matter of comparative facility.
The motion was then granted.
REFORM OF PARLIAMENT (ENGLAND) BILL.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that in rising to move
the order of the day for the consideration of the report on
the English Reform Bill, it might perhaps be convenient
to the House if he now proceeded to call its attention to
two or three points in the Bill, on which it would be ne-
cessary to make some alterations. The first point which
it was necessary to alter had relation to the description of
places. The House would recollect that when the Bill
was originally brought in, the Commissioners had no
powers given them to divide parishes or counties: That
intention having been abandoned, and the Commissioners
now Laving the power to divide counties, and to add to
any county outlying portions of the same county, and to
incorporate with boroughs any parishes lying within a
certain distance, it became matter of convenience to alter
the words " township or parishes," wherever they oc-
curred in the Bill, into " towns." He would give an in-
stance of what lie meant—in one case where " the parish"
of Brightlielinstone was mentioned in the Bill, he proposed
to alter it into " the town" of Brightliehnstone. Another
point, which arose in the Committee, was a question
as to the period when the registration should begin ;
and his Noble Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) wishing to fix upon some determinate period
had filled up the blank with the " Ist of November."
Now it was quite evident that the registration could not
take place at that time. It was therefore necessary to fix
some other period. His Majesty's Ministers were of opi-
nion that the Commissioners would not be engaged three
months in accomplishing the work assigned to them, in
consequence of the information which had been collected
from them by means of that circular which had excited so
much of the eloquent indignation of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Aldborough. Still it would be necessary to
give a sufficient time fur the reception of their report be-
fore the occurrence of the day of registration. He there-
fore intended to propose that, instead of " the Ist of
November," " the Ist of February" should be inserted
in the Bill as the day on which the registration was to
begin. That alteration of the date would also render the
alteration of some other dates a matter of necessity. It

was provided in the Bill that all the poors' rates and as-
sessed taxes which should have become due previously to
the Ist day of July in the present year should be paid up
previous to registration, where the right of voting was in
respect of rent, in order to enable the voter to commence
registration on the 2lst of August. his Majesty's Mini-
sters thought that it would answer their object as well if
the 6th day of April were inserted instead of the Ist day
of July. There was also a proviso which Ministers pro-
posed to add to the Bill, on a point on which the Hon.
Member for Worcester shire had asked him (Lord J .Russell)
a question in the Committee, and that related to the power
of the sheriff to hire a house for election purposes, in-
stead of erecting booths. The sheriff would in future
have the power to hire a house, or to erect a booth
to take the poll, as he might think expedient. There
was no other point in the Bill which Government
wished to alter in bringing up the report. There was,
however, a question of grave importance still left behind,
on which he understood that his Noble Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had given a pledge, during the
period when he (Lord J. Russell) was absent from the
House from indisposition. That question related to the
representation of Wales. It was urged by several gentle-
men in the Committee that there were several large coun-
ties in Wales without any adequate representation. When
that point was brought under the consideration of the
Committee, his Noble Friend had pledged himself that it
should be taken into consideration. It had accordingly
been taken into consideration, and his Majesty's Govern-
' went had found that there were four counties in Wales
distinguished as possessing a considerable population.
There were, however, only two counties to which his Ma-
jesty's Ministers had deemed it necessary to add one repre-
sentative. The counties were Glamorganshire, to the re-
presentation ef which one Member had been already added ;
Pembrokeshire, which had a population of 74,000 souls,
but to which it was not intended to give any representa-
tive, as that county hid already gained by the Bill two
districts of boroughs, each returning one Member ; Car-
inarthenshire and Denbighshire of which the former
possessed 96,000, and the latter 76,000 inhabitants. To
these two last counties Ministers now proposed to give one
Member 'ach. As they bad now added two Members to
the coun:y representations, Ministers, in conformity with

the principles on which they bad acted throughout this
Bill, now proposed to give two representatives to two
large commercial towns. One of these towns was in Lanca-
shire, and had been rated under its real worth ; it W 39
Ashton-under-Line. The other was connected with the
great clothing district of Gloucestershire, and was Stroud
and Minchinhampton. Ministers did not intend to make
this addition to the Bill on bringing up the report. He
mentioned it at present as a notice, that he would upon
the third reading of the Bill move that a clause be added
to it by way of rider, making this addition to the places
already gifted by this Bill with the privileze of returning
Members to Parliament. He had no other alterations to
make in the Bill,—no further observations to offer to the
House at this stage of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said, that as the alterations and ad-
ditions which the Noble Lord had announced his intention
of proposing on the third reading of the Bill were of very
material importance, he wished to be informed what day the
Noble Lord intended to fix for the third reading of the Bill.
Lord ALTHORP would not waste the time of the
House in disputing whether these alterations were material
or not. He agreed, however, with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman in thinking that it was very material that they
should fix a day for the third reading. That day must of
course depend on the time occupied in considering the re-
port. He hoped, however, that the House would be able
to get through the report so as to be able to take the third
reading of the Bill on Monday next.--(Hear, hear, )
Mr. CROKER took credit to himself for some of the
amendments which the Noble Lord bad now intended to
introduce into the Bill. He bad always thought that they
ought to limit the power a the Commissioners by defining
what they wished to have done. He therefore hailed with
great satisfaction the accession of the Noble Lord to his
proposition of having " the town of" Brighton inserted
in the Bill, inste id of " the parish of" Brighton. The
Noble Lord had mentioned that this alteration would ex-
tend
to other parts of the Bill. Why not to all of it?
Lord ALTHORP gave a reply, of which every word
was inaudible in the gallery.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was a very proper al-
teration as to Brighton ; but there were many instances in
which this alteration could not be applied.
Sir C. WETHERELL contended that the alteration of
the dates in the Bill was a very important alteration in-
deed, and required time to ascertain its effects.
Mr. GOULBURN wished the Noble Lord would insert
is the Bill at once all the amendments and alterations
which he intended to make. It had been altered over and
over again at every stage, and be must say that he should
like to see it in a complete shape once before he gave a
final opinion upon it.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. CROKER suggested that the Bill should be recom-
mitted pro forma, in order to have the necessary altera-
tions made in it. It might then be reprinted in time for
the third reading of the Bill.
Lord ALTHORP thought that such a course might be
desirable, if any thing more than verbal alterations were
going to he made in the Bill. At present he saw no ne-
cessity for it.
Sir C. WETHERELL was of opinion, that the crea-
tion of four additional representative districts was some-
thing more than a verbal alteration of the Bill. Four
new boroughs had sprung up since the Bill left the Com-
mittee, and he had no guarantee that the other four might
not spring up in the interval between the present stage
and the third reading of the Bill.
In answer to a question from Mr. C. Wynsr,

Lord ALTHORP stated, that the registration, com-
mencing on the Ist of Ftbruary, would not be complete
till the last day of April.
Sir G. MURRAY asked the Noble Lord opposite, whe•
ther he intended to apply the same rule to the Scotch
county representation which he had applied to the Welsh.
He particularly wished for an immediate answer to this
question, because, on account of the distance of Scotland
from the metropolis, it was necessary to give the inha-
bitants of Scotch counties ample time to make such repre-
sentations as they might think expedient on this subject, not
only to his Majesty's Government, but also to that House.
Lord ALTHORP's answer was almost inaudible. We
understood him to reply in the negative to the question,
and to assert that the cases of Scotland and Wales were
very different. It was not intended to make any altera-
tion in this part of the Scotch Reform Bill. If the
Scotch counties had any representations to make upon this
subject they might make them now. The Noble Lord
had made some remarks about the Act of Union between
England and Scotland, and the long incorporation of
Wales with England ; but we could not collect their im-
port from the detached portions of them which reached
the gallery.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON contended, that by this last
alteration a greater share of representation was given to
Wales than was given to Scotland. As the Noble Lord
had thought fit to allude to the Act of Union between
England and Scotland, he would beg leave to remind the
Noble Lord, that by that Act there were to be thirty
Scotch county Members. This Bill reduced the number
to twenty .eight.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition. )
The Hon. Member then gave notice of his intention to
propose some verbal alterations, which he described, in
the 42d clause, which renders the accuracy of the register
questionable before a Committee of the House of Commons
[The technical mode in which this alteration was pro-
' posed—namely, by propo,iog to strike out certain words
now in the chose, and to insert others in their stead—
prevented us. from clearly understanding either the letter
or the substance of it.l
Lord ALTHORP expressed his readiness to accede to
this alteration.
Mr. HUNT and Mr. Hume severally suggested that the
Bill ought to contain a clause rendering it necessary that
a notice should be affixed to the church door of every pa-
rish, informing the voters of the district and booth in
which they were to give their votes.
Lord ALTHORP was of opinion that the Bill, in its
present shape, sufficiently marked the place and district in
which each voter was to give his suffrage.
Mr. A. BARING put some questions to Lord Althorp
respecting the Commissioners. Were they to act under
the guidance of this Bill alone, or were they to receive in-
structions from his Majesty's Government ?
Lord ALTHORP said that the whole body of Commis.
sioners would decide upon the instructions to be given
to the different sections, into which they might afterwards
divide themselves. Government had given no instructions
to the Commissioners, and did not intend to interfere with
their proceedings.
The order of the day for the taking the report into
consideration was then read.
The SPEAKER said, that in order to ensure regu-
larity, he wished to remind the House that no amend-
ments could be made upon the report until the question
was put, that the amendments of the Committee be read
a second time.
The question " That the amendments be now read a
second time" was then put, whereupon a conversation
ensued as to the order in which the proposed amend-
ments of Hon. Members should be put from the chair,
and it was finally arranged that the amendments should
be severally proposed according to the order in which they
stood in the Bill.
A number of verbal amendments were then read, seria-
tim, and agreed to,
On the 10/. qualification clause,
Mr. TREVOR was proceeding to move, that the house-
hold franchise in and round London, and in all commer-
cial and manufacturing towns, be raised from 101. to 201.,
when—

The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Member that his
amendment was irregularly proposed at that stage of the
proceedings as it would properly come in as a proviso at the
end of the clause.
After some further vet hal amendments had been read and
agreed to,
On that part of the 22d clause being read which limits
the right of voting in cities and boroughs to persons who,
shall have resided for six months in, or within seven miles
of, such city or borough next previous to the time of voting.
Mr. TREVOR moved that this be extended to a dis-
tance of twenty miles.
This produced a desultory conversation, in which Lord
Althorp, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Hughes Hughes, Lord John
Russell, Colonel Sibthorpe, Mr. Goulburn, and some
Members whose names we did not learn, took a part. To
give a connected account of the observations of these Hon.
Members would be impossible, as the far greater part of
them were not heard in the gallery. In the result Mr.
Trevor agreed to make his amendment fifteen miles.
On this the House was about to divide, and the gager),
was partially cleared, when
Mr. CROKER concurred in the amendment ; hut con-
sidering that the subject had been already fully discussed
in the Committee, and considering also the state of the
House and the state of business, and of the season, lie did
hope that his Hon. Friend would not again debate and
divide on questions which had already occupied the atten-
tion of the Committee so long.
Mr. A. BARING asked how were they to understand
seven miles distant? Was it to be from the place of taking
the poll, or from any part of the borough ?
Lord ALTHORP said it was intended to be seven miles
from any part of the city or borough.
Mr. TREVOR would adopt the suggestion of his Right
Hon. Friend, and not press his amendment.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the " seven
miles" allowe I to stand part of the clause.
The other parts of the clause were agreed to after a

few remarks from Mr. C. W. WYNN and Lord ALTHORS,
which were not heard in the gallery.

On the question that the names of the Commissioners
for dividing the counties, and fixing places of eleciion,
&c., stand part of clause 23,
Mr. CROKER said, that he had very strong objec-
tions, not of a personal nature, but on public grounds, to
many of the individuals named as the Commissioners, but
as he had had no opportunity heretofore of making his ob-
jection in the Committee—an opportunity, however, of
which, in consequence of a temporary absence, he did not
avail himself,—but as he had had the the opportunity,
he did not think that his absence, when that part
of the subject was discussed, would justify him
now in raising a debate on this port of the clause.
He row., therefore, not to enter upon the subject now, but
to protest against his silence being considered as implying
an approval of the choice of the Commissioners in some
instances, or against its being understood that he should
thereby be precluded from adverting to the subject at a
future stage of the Bill, when, by common consent, the:e
was to be a general discussion of the whole measure.
He hoped that at th it period he should not be thrown
hack, and told that he had let the time pass when his ob-
jections would have come more regularly on the bringing
up of the report. He preferred urging his objections on
the third reading, when he should take a review of the
whole measure.

Lord LTHORP sid it would be competent to the right
Hon. Gentleman to make his objection at the third reading.
Colonel SIBTHOHPE objected to any Members of that
House being named as Commissioners.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that of the two Members
selected, one had voted for the second reading of the Bill,
and the other aga;nst it.

Sir R. VYVYAN said, as he had promised to vote for
a motion of the Hon. Member for Lincoln which stood for
to-morrow, he did not know whether that Hon. Member
intended to move it that evening. He certainly concurred
with him in thinking that no Member of that House ought
to be placed on the commission. To enact that any Mem-
ber of that House should be appointed by the Bill to carry
sarh an important part of it into effect,—to have the power
of deciding who should or who should not have a right to
vote, was a proposition so glaring and flagrant, as in his
opinion had never before been submitted to Parliament.
He did not look to the power which they were to have of
making a geographical division of counties, for much of
that was already effectrd ; but his great objection was, that
any Members of that House, or that any commission, should
have the power of deciding who were or who were not the
persons who should have the right of voting in the places
adjacent to cities or boroughs. It would scarcely be be-
, heved, that in legislating on the formation of a new Con-
stitution, such an anomaly as this was allowed to pass.
He had hitherto abstained from taking any prominent pat t

. .
in this 88, because he believed that Ministers would
never be able to carry it, or to make it a permanent mea-
sure. If they had wished for a sound plan of Reform,
they might have one more general and simple,—one em
bracing more of the property of the country. The p'an
t'►ey had proposed was full of the most glaring anomalies,
but none were greater than that of naming a commission,
to say who should or who should not have the right of
voting. He would state his belief that this Bill would
never pass into a law.—(Cheers from the Opposition,
echoed from the Ministerial benches.) But if it should
pass, it would be by resorting to measures so strong as had
never before been resorted to for any political purpose ;
but unless the principle of vote-making on which this
commission was founded were extended to the higher
places, unless the plan of faggot votes were adopted, the
Bill would never pass.—(Cheers.) But if this were
adopted, what would be the opinion of the country 1
When inquiry should be made, why this man and the
other had been raised from what they were to what they
should have become, and to what, from the very nature 01
the circumstances out of which the change in their station
had arisen, they could not long enjoy,—the answer would
he, that they were faggot votes, that they were faggot
Peers (as we understood the Hon. Member, who, from his
position nearly under the gallery, was at times but imper-
fectly heard), who were made for a particular purpose, and
whe could not be expected to enjoy their elevation for more
than a year or two. For, as he had already observed, from
the very circumstances out of which the change had been
made with respect to them, it was not to be expected that
they could long continue to enjoy their new station. He
repeated his conviction that, without some faggot• votes
elsewhere, the Bill would never pass ; and even then, if it
did, it would be necessary to have another Bill, to give
the people that which this Bill professed to give, hut
which it would never confer—a full, fair, and free repre-
sentation in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
The name of the Right Hon. J. Abercromhy was then
put as one of the Commissioners, and agreed to.
On the name of Air. Littleton being put,
_ .

a . -
Colonel SIBTHORPE moved that the names of the
Member for Staffordshire (Mr. Littleton), the Member
for Bodtnin (Mr. D. Gilbert), and that of J. Wrottesley,
Esq. be omitted from the list of Commissioners.
Lord INGESTRIE seconded the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the reason why the Hon.
Members alluded to were appointed was, that as questions
would arise on the decisions of the Commissioners, it
would be extremely convenient that some of them should
he present who could explain the grounds on which these
decisions had been made. The reason why the Hon. Mem-
ber
for Staffordshire was named was, that he was a person
who could apply his mind most usefully to the object of
the commission. Another person whom it was proposed
to omit was Mr. Davies Gilbert, who had lately been Pre-
sident of the Royal Society—a man more eminent in this
country and in foreign countries for his scientific pursuits,
than for any degree of party zeal or party spirit.—(Hear.)
These were not the only Members they had proposed. 01
these two, one had been in favour of the Bill, the other
opposed to it, though not with the violence or vehemence
of others. Another, who was a decided opponent of the
Bill, and who it was intended to name as a Commissioner,
was the Hon. Member for Radnor (Mr. T. F. Lewis), who
alter considering the matter for some time told him (Lord
J. Russell) that he did not like to undertake the office, as he
had expressed a strong opinion regarding the Bill, and in-
tended to oppose it at a future stage. It was an ac-
cusation against his Majesty's Ministers that they did not
put persons in the commission who opposed the Bill, he
answered that they had proposed a person who was not
friendly to the 1111. There was another gentleman, not
a Member of that House, whom it would have been a
great omission on their part if they had not proposed to
take part in the commission—Mr. Sturges Bourne ; but
he had expressed his determination (however he might be
disposed to co-operate in a public object like this) not to
take any part iu the commission. Some gentleman had
said that the Commissioners were persons generally
favourable to the Bill ; but although they might be per-
sons favourable to what was termed a liberal line of po-
licy, he did not, therefore, conclude that they would take
part in any party politics, in favour of one party or
another, or that they were men likely to swerve from
what they honestly thought was most practicable and ex-
pedient for the country in the division of counties. If the
Hon. Member for Launceston meant to make any charges
against the Commissioners, he begged to say that he was
ready to meet those charges, and he would contend that
the great respectability and integrity of the gentlemen in
the list rendered them as fit to discharge the duty as any
persons who could be proposed.—(Hear.) They were
the persons whom Ministers bad proposed, and the House
armth of
Bibßnya.
riavot s:pevrtdye deliberate
pres)
entiment
Nn
ht jreyuovdl
faygsa: mit d;an.atty
rnwoefiatesi
eht
the
hi
i'srt
Parliament,ndh
eeeto
alion.m a
declama-
tion,
eoommii:
aldiaiiudstrteee
ormen,isintadi
teudenim
prognostication,ti
sm o whatf,j,h i hoar
as
esnaeNivtda
was influenced
bins (Sir
which
e
fit to attack them, as Ministers of the Crown,id'o'fitniume‘tv‘nuviimgc'eieetisii:etl;
nominations, though he seemed to have forgotten what
other Members more temperate and sedate had been aware
of—that these Commissioners had not the absolute power
of deciding the boundaries of the counties ; that their
office was merely to make a report, and on the adoption of
that report by both Houses of Parliament, and an address
to his Majesty, those boundaries and limits would be settled,
not at the will and pleasure of the Commissioners, but by
the deliberate adoption of their report, and its confirmation
by his Majesty and both Houses of Parliament. The
Hon. Baronet had travelled into other subjects, and de-
nounced other prognostications. Those were questions into
which he (Lord J. Russell) did not think fit, on the pre-
sent occasion, to follow him. If the Hon. Baronet said
that this Bill would not pass, that was his affirmation,
which he would meet with an affirmation on the other
hand, that the Bill would pass.—(A loud cheer burst from
the House, which was echoed front the gallery, with a
slight clapping of hantls, upon which one of the messen-
gers placed in the Members' gallery, intimated that the
strangers' gallery would be cleared if this act of indecorum
were repeated.) " The difficulties," continued the Noble
Lord, " I admit, are still great, but time feeling of the
crioeuwnetdrvehin favour of theeers.)it trust,
tßhielrlecoortem,tiueanswselulntaobae
thted—(
inherent
le-
t
merits of the Bid—(" Ott, oh," from the Opposition)—
as to its adoption by the country, that I shall see this Bill
soon pass into a law ; and I will not be seduced"by any re-
marks or allusions which the Hon. Baronet may make,
in the summit and height of his indiscretion, to enter
into discussions as to what will be the fate of the
Bill in the other House of Parliament, where, when it

shall have passed this House, it will go to receive tbst
consideration which it will deserve, seeing that it will csole
from a House of Commons elected by the people,- califd't
as they had been, to elect a House of Commons on a"';
special ground. I say, coming from a House of Colnit°."l
so elected, where this Bill has received a deliberate so 1i
s4leration, I am sure it will obtain in the other House Oaf
consideration which is due to a question of the Reforal
of
the House of Commons, supported by such authority; at'
coming from such a body, backed by the feelings of tbe
country—(No, no)—and lam sure, much as the Bill hs,l
been maligned here, much as the Hon. Bironet and
friends have tried to vilify it, and to diminish the betel,
wh.cli we soy will flow from this measure, that a n''
j which has obtained the approbation of the House of Coo'
th
mons, of the Government, and of the country, deserves
be passed into a law."--(Cheers.)
• of
Sir R. VYVYAN ro,-e, but was interrupted by elle'
-

Spoke," " Order," " Questiosi." c 4
The SPEAKER said the question was, whether the its
name of Edward John Littleton stand part of the clause.
S:r R. VYVYAN again attempted to speak, but 0' to
, 111,
called to order.
The SPEAKER said that it was a question, not 1 la
order, but of recollection. If the Hon. Baronet
spoken after the question had been put, he had not a right
ht
to speak again. If he had spoken before it, he had a right' lit
The Hon. Member knew which was the fact.
Sir R. VYVIAN sail, that after the personal adds'
cos
sions of the Noble Lord, which he thought had been u°e St
called for—(Hear, hear)—lie had some claim upon
tl't al
House. He (Sir R. Vyvyan) had spoken to generalstl
to
the Noble Lord to individuals. If he (Sir R. Vyvyan'
had lost the confidence of the majority of those whorn
had formerly represented, lie had a right to speak for the it
thousand who voted for him when he was reject. tin
Claiming as great a share of independence as the Noble
Lord, or as any Member, let his constituency be ever :I°
large, he should do his duty regardless of his taunts ; a°
although, in speaking of this Bill, and this most tin,_e
cessary clause, he had been tempted to say more than "
had intended to say, lie should not allow that it was 13
act of indiscretion.—( Hear. ) With resp, ct to this clause[
he asked why should any engineer be appointed ? What had k
erg neers to do with the constitution of Parliament ?
thing more absurd and childish than the appointment °
an engineer for this purpose, be never heard. As to tile
a:meal, which the Noble Lord said had been made to tilt
i. 4 jb
country, he knew that such appeal had been made by "";
Majesty's Ministers, accompanied by such a plan of alters' t
tient in the representation of the people as had never bee° d'
seen before. Under these circumstances, could there be ant
doubt, at the time of the appeal, what the effect woo!
I,e ?—(A laugh.) The moment be heard of it he tl
was persuaded that they would carry any Bill b°i
that kind in that manner. This might be a it'i„t
jest of congratulation to his Majesty's Ministers, b'it
they would find they had raised a spirit NO'', t'
they could never satisfy.—(llear, hear.) But the NolPe
Lord said lie (Sir R. Vyvyan) had indulged in progrOti;
cations. Why did Ministers bring this Bill forward' h
Because they said, there was no alternative but Refortt'
or revolution; and if the Bill was carried, all would "
peace and tranquillity. Was there no prognostication to
that? The Noble Lord said they had appealed to the
people ; but to what people? Why, to people considers`
nfit for the exercise of the elective franchise ; and atb:
future time they might be reconciled to other change',)
being told that this Bill was the act of a corrupt Part's'
inent—a Parliament which declared itself corrupt.l
(Hear.) In the last Parliament he had said that it irs;
his intention to propose some measure of Reim m :
th it measure might have been,—whether the enfranchise'
went of large towns, or the disfranchisement of what 014
called rotten boroughs,—he had not made up his mind :
be
should have been guided by the opinion of that Houk
But the appeal had been made ; the King's Ministers bl
set themselves at the head of a movement which ba
never been seen before in the country.—(Hear.) Tbe,
line was, therefore, past for resisting a change in th; '
representation ; hut it was now the object of those 10
were anxious for the safety of the country, to introdurl
principle of permanency—a stem of Reform which show '
not oblige Parliament to quail before a seditious assetriblY"'
but provide some security to property, and to the reinaiete
ing institutions of the country. This was his apology I°r
saying that he would go to a much greater extent 0
Reform than before this Bill had been introduced.
Bill now before the House contained as many anornab'
as the old system which was complained of ; and
no instance were those snout dies more gross and
grant than in the clause under consideration. It vi r,
no doubt satisfactory to gentlemen who approved of t'',l
Bill to hear that it would piss, and receive the R°Y,
assent, and some were led to hug then's...lves with th`
idea that they could terrify those Whom they could it't
persuade. This was the course pursued by the organs
of the House, by the use of language which might ;,
o
termed seditious. It waswasdifficult to say that the P'
would not pass ire a law : he believed the power Wr,
now in the hands of his Majesty's Government, and the',
were charged with a more fearful responsibility than 0,7
Government : he believed the power was in their bands[
and they might decide by a single dash of the pen srbei
tiler it should pass into a law or not. Ministers incurrt,
a terrific responsibility, and they should take care
they annihilated a body they attempted to increase. P,
feared they did not perceive the position—the tremendou:
position—in which they stood at the present it-10/nel
Let persons of high rank, however high their rank al't
power might be, bear in mind that that rank and
power were supported by those who considered the.'
existed for the advantage of the country, not for thede
selves ; it was possessed by the few for the benefit of the
many. If lie had no other reason for making the`'' rf,
marks than what was now passing on the other side of 0;
water, they were sufficiently justified. This appeared
of
be a time when change and innovation were domint',
from one end of Europe to the other. The Hon. Birooej
concluded by observing, that not one of those who 14,,
been returned to support the Bill, had voted for the vrb°,ol
Bill, so greatly had it been changed ; whilst some b
been rejected by their constituents for merely suggeat'')
that it required consideration.—(Hear.) Those who 14'
voted against the Duke of Wellington's Government, es:,
pectins Lord Grey to come in, looked for some measol"
of Reform, but not such a measure as this.—(Question.)f
Mr. H. GURNEY was not a much greater admirer!,
the Bill than the Hon. Baronet himself ; but if counti`.
were to be divided, it must he done by some one, and er,
perience showed that the House of Commons was not tilt
best to undertake the duty. It was impossible that a fairer
list could he drawn out. It hail no political compleai°o
°;
and two of the Commissioners were decided opponents
the Bill.

Mr. BARING rose amidst so much noise in the 110,
stoiontheresinwdasiviednuoarlisr:oubsutanoinl
luyntlowatrit!e
and the g allery, that we could not hear him but imperfertit
He contended that the power conferred upon the Coniinl6;
their hands.
Mr. HUNT thought it would be better if Members°,
Parliament were left out of the commission; it would J.
of.gt. e a
tHie tmderniootdgoehjj eico
more satisfactory to the country. The Noble Lord
spoken,in rather a high tone, when he said, not indeed till
the Bill should pass, but something near it,—that the
would pass. Notwithstanding this high tone, and 111_,
declaration that the feeling of the country was still ,Y
warns as ever in favour of the Bill, he (Mr. Hunt)►
prepared to state that the opinion of the country was '11)1,
so warm as it had been—(Hear, and oh)—that the poPt,
were not so anxious about the Bill as they were at fir%
He would now ask his Majesty's Ministers whether the';
had read what appeared in the leading journal of yester'
day.—(Hear, bear, and a laugh.) He would ask thes:
whether they were of opinion that that was the sc'f
of language and the tone to be taken by a journal pr°,:,
teasing itself to be under the influence of his Maje,t)r
Minister ? —(Laughter.) The Noble Lord, the °Mil
night, referring to a statement of his (Mr. Hunt's) byeb'
called it a most monstrous proposition. He would asi,
Noble Lord if that language and those threats to the at!;,4
House were the most likely way to effect his object
laugh.) He (Mr. Hunt) could enter into the feeling, if
noble-minded and honourable men—(Laughter)°3 t,
he was a Peer of Parliament—(Laughter)—as he was nf
and never would be—(Laughter)—if he was a Member,
ttr
that Noble house,—(Laughter)—and heard, day a o
day, threats from the Press, and the remarks in
House, even if he had given his consent to the Bill lici°,;,;
he would stand up and oppose it.—(Hear.) Nothing t'„;)
the bullies of the Press said against him should deter ill a
from his duty. He hoped the Bill would pass.—(A
laugh.)—He did not care if it did not.—(A loud laugh.)
What be rose to say was, that if this question came Wt.)
division, he should vote against Ministers.—(A 13"1,,)
He did not care whether the Bill passed or not.—(A la
ere
fie did not anticipate much good from it, whatever o
might.
Mr. 11. GRATTAN defended the appointment of
tb
Commissioners.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that it would not be bec°,
that any Member of that House who had taken a PSrre
the debates and:the discussions on this measure should ''"o.
imposed upon him the delicate—he would not all it ,
constitutional—duty which it appeared those Cotot 1
simmers had to perform. He was quite ready to adolit
the Hun. Member for Staffordshire was a gentle
most unexceptionable character, but he would contend 'ell
in the selection of those Commissioners they should WV)

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