The Sun.
London, England, 1849-07-24 00:00:00

in this he had pursued what he considered a constitu-
tional course. While measures were passing through Par-
liament, the Government were responsible for them, but
When they were adopted by the Legislature, then the re-
sponsibility rested on Parliament.—(Hear.) He said
the whole of our legislation had been inefficient—the
early temporary, as well as the mere recent so-called
Permanent measures; but in doing so ho wished to cast
no direct or special censure upon the Government. He
thought that the fact must be admitted, and therefore he
trusted that in that, the first assembly in the world, it
would be resolved to commence a new policy—based
trn the principle that, in order to maintain our high
Mee among nations, Ireland must be trade happy and
prosperous. When it was so, England would still hold
her head aloft, and keep its place in the van of civilize-
tinne—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by
moving the resolutions.
Sir
W. SOMERVILLE said there was very much in
the speech of his Hon. Friend from which he was com •
Pentad to dissent; but there was one part of it especially
Which, must express his surprise at, namely, the
that during the present session the House had
shown an indisposition to discuss Irish atfairs.—(Hear,
hear.) Whatever difference of opinion there might be
"Pon
other subjects, he thought there could be none
Wit to the patience, the almost unexampled patence,
dtehrevsttich everything relating to Ireland had been con
1u
—(Cheers, and " No, no.") His Hon. Friend
himself was an instance of this attention to Irish
affairs, of At the end, he might almost say the last day
a session which had been almost exclusively occupied
With Irish affairs, the Honourable Gentleman came down
and superseded the Irish representatives—(Hear, hear)—
twhose peculiar duty it was to complain, if complaint was
uttifiable.—(Hear, hear.) Though the Hon. Gentleman
new nothing of the country—(llear, hear)—though he
had never set his foot in it, he now came not, as he said,
t
Parliamentll ceesure the policy of the Government, but to censure
for its legislation for Ireland, and of course
to censure the Government for the measures which it
L'aci. proposed to Parliament, and which had been adopted
yits—(Hear, hear.) He certainly must express his
astonishment at the extremely inconsistent nature of the
Peech of the Hon. Gentleman. At the commencement
p_nhad alluded to the Labour-rate Act, and then to the
r-hies
Act, and laid all the evils and sufferings which
,fiiicted Ireland to these measures; but his Hon. Friend
Lad not proceeded far before he came to the real causes
of these evils, and depicted their antiquity and severity
it a
way from which he was certainty not inclined to
differ much, but which, at the same time, he must say,
did not throw much new light upon the subject, and he
therefore did not feel called upon to follow him into de-
?ilk He felt the more difficulty in following the Hon.
Member through all the documents he had brought for-
ward, necause there was scarcely one of the social evils
of Ireland which the Hon. Member did not take up, but
many of these were matters not to be discussed in a few
hours
in. One night ,
but would require separate discus-
Sion for successive nights.—(Hear, hear.) He would,
however, briefly advert to the evils which the Honour-
able Member said had been caused by the legislation of
Parliament. In the year 1845 the Right Hon. Baronet
Passed an Act of Parliament to provide for the pressure
Which threatened to bear on Ireland. That pressure
did not pro vele) be so heavy as was anticipated, but in
the following year the famine pressed severely on the
country, and then the present Government proposed the
Labour-rate Act as a means of staying its ravages.
That measure dil not materially differ from the former
one, but the times and circumstances were different.—
(hear.)The Hon. Gentleman had pointed out its defects,
but it was easy after the events to do so.—(Hear, hear.)
It was, however, a singular thing that at the time the
Act was passing the Hon. Gentleman raised no opposi-
tion to it.—(Hear.) He now came forward and threw
blame on the House and the Government. But where
Was he at that time?—(Cheers.) He was a Member of
toe House at the time, why was he not there to take his
share in the debates?—(Hear.) Oh, but, said his Hon.
Friend scarcely was the Act passed when the gentry of
Ireland assembled and called upon the Lord-Lieutenant
for a change; but he said the place of the Irish gentry
Was in that House.—(Cheers.) However late in the
session it was, it was their duty to have been there to
advise the Legislature as to the most practical methods
of meeting the difficulty. It was no excuse that they
complained to the Lord-Lieutenant of the con
sequences of their own neglect. (Loud cheers.)
Well, then, the Honourable Gentleman having denounced
this measure, and it was easy to do so, as he had
said, after the event, proceeded to denounce the Poor-
law Act. In passing he would say, however, that the
absence of the first would have sentenced' hundreds and
thousands of persons to death.—(Hear, hear.) The real
truth
was, that no one could have forseen that so much
Pauperism and misery would have to be relieved; but
With all its defects it had met the emergency to a consi-
derable extent.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
Poor-law, he denied that it was intended to meet a fa-
itnoe- They had no reason on the Bth of June, 1847,
W _ hen it received the Royal'Assent, to anticipate another
famine like that of the previous year. It was a mea-
sure intended for the remedy of ordinary evils, and al-
though the Hon. Gentleman had depicted what he
called an average sample of the misery and destitution
of Ireland under its opeartion, he must take leave to
flay that these statements were, in his opinion, most ex-
aggerated.
Mr. HORSMAN—I quoted from the Blue Book.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said it was easy to go through
evidence, and pick out a bit here, and another there, in
order to make out a case.—(Hear.) But, as a sample of
the average condition of the horrors, the Hon. Gentle-
Men took Ballina. Why, Barnum was not an average,
but an extreme case, and even in it he saw hopes of a
better time under the poor•law.—(Hear.) The return
for the week ending the Bth of June, 1849, showed that
the number of persons receiving relief was 28,000—an
enormous number, certainly—but in the corresponding
week of 1848 they were 41,000.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought, therefore, it was evident under the operation
of this law, the pauperism of Ireland was decreasing.
The suspension of out-door relief at this moment would
be the sentence of death on thousands of persons.
The Hon. Gentleman had taken the Union of Ballina as
at illustration, but in the week ending this year 30th
.June, 27,700 persons were receiving relief in that union.
14 1848, in the corresponding week of this year, there
Were 41,000 receiving relief in the same union. It was
greatly to the credit of the poor people, and completely
disproved the charge of idleness and want of self-reli-
ance., charged against the people of Ireland. Some of
the money came from America, but a great proportion
of it came from England and Scotland, whither they
had gone to seek fur employment. It was the opinion
of Mr. Nicholls that the time had come for the extension
of out-door relief to the poor of Ireland. The Right
Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to answer the
arguments advanced by the Honourable Member for
Cocketmouth, with regard to the promotion of emi-
gration, and asked where he was when the question
had been brought forward by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Limerick. He next entered into a vindication
of the present system of taxation, and proceeded to show 1
that a reduction of that area to estate assessment, for the
nominal purpose of individualising responsibility, would
not act fairly or beneficially. It the Hon. Gentleman's
proposition were carried out, they should have farm as-
sessment, and that could not be adopted if the other pro-
visions of the poor-law were to be carried out. The re-
commendations of the Commission recently appointed on
this subject were in progress of adoption, and they would
have the effect of rendering the extent of area more
adapted to the requirements of the country than was now
recognised. He wished to state that it was not in the
Power of any Government to provide means to remove
the great distress which prevailed, but they had supplied
Palliatives, which were granted with no niggardly hand.
11:15 was not over sanguine, but he thought there were
heof a bright future being discernible for Ireland.
-s-he prospect of a good harvest was, he thanked Provi-
tience, easily discernible, and measures had been sane-
btheoned Gentleman b.
y the Legislature which were calculated to
nefit the condition of Ireland. The Right Hon.
concluded by moving a direct negative to
e motion.
Mr. UORSMAN explained. He had never expressed
IY desire whatever that the present potatoe crop of
jeland should be destroyed. What he said was, that he
soule. culture lot tit this
Irish
agriculture.eeculent would not remain the
uli9te,..peardn.dth.
rative
hal'neAf STAFFORD contended that the Government
”ed
fortoportunities for legislating in au amelio
the spirit the people of Ireland, and ref used to act
n suggestions f ose practically acquainted with
that country. He then proceeded to review in detail the
measures rought forward by the Government. The
taxation. question of
wanted
Tr eh o Presentation could not be separated from
n. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Mac •
gregor)
Members for Kensington, and the
Members fore two
lion. Member f Limerickl (Mr. John O'Connell) wanted
two
taxation reland, and if they talked about ex
tending
in Ireland, they could not refuse to ex-
tend also the number of Members. He could not help
alluding to the Savings Bank Committee. The report
had not yet been received and he thought, considering
the course which the Government had pursued with re.
to that
ference
Committee, they were bound to exert
themselves to bring the inquiry to a satisfactory and
speedy terminatio as reat public interest was excited
°lll the • subject, especially among the humbler portion of
the community. Ie Hon. Member then went on to
allude to proceedingsnty' which had taken place with refe-
rence to the Irish Poor-law Amendment Bill, and espe-
cially to the rate in aid. The Poor-law Amendment Bill
w!is Passed through that House in opposition to the
wishes of the Irish Members, and by means of English
majorities.—(Loud cries of ‘
Hear, hear," from the Irish
Members.) And o'such a character was that Bill, that
it would lead to the* rerence that they had one kind of
With reference to the
legislation for Ireland aril another kind for England.
guar-
dians, he saidillTAw.aassthceonvinced that a system of local
formation of the boards of
self-governme
Mr. SHELL
said, he only
not forget that this was
way to regenerate Ireland.
t it rather surprising that
the 23d of July, and he tlfoeuulh
none of the Irish Mernberasthg:lll thought it Judicious to
gous to what the
originate a proposition
Hon. Member for Cockernsoutral° Horsman) had
brought forward. Surely it was not(eNir.
4pbrYeswant of selere-
to the task which had devolved eartrin any inefficiency
Ilan
Perfect
fallen on him. It was not from bins' or which had
htcin Friend
Lance of which his Hon. Friend
spethcua-t
reodel.—(Laughter.) However, it was telit.istell
proper to
the Member for Cockermouth, had thougvc
(tome forward actuated hy all that anxiety
lattve sympathy could afford. But it was nes.e
reason they found him in the front of the deebra
other teliesl
that important question, but it was because his watne
knowledge. of Laud was c .uotervailed by
tlaguished qualities, especially to be the org-ill of dis-
satisfaction_ and the polished mirror of dieeontene-11ear, hear.) lint let it not be supposed that he in-
sinuated... it was only by the u-e of caustics his Ron,
f,aicod was dissatisfied. Ho could praise as well as
iJleae• lie well retie( mber, el that in the course of last
session his lion. Friend we Member for Cockermuuth
proposed to extend the tn x
eume-ta to Ireland, and he
loused an encomium on Lord Clarendon. Indeed he
Eh . e ) had remarked that most persons who were
lir