The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

TRADE AND COLONIES.

Mr. ROBlN§olViaverio+Sce, that on Friday se'nnight he
should submit a.proposition to the House respecting our Trade
with the Colonies. He tlierefore moved, that the House
should on that day resolve itself '2...t0 a Committee to consider
the several Acts of Parliament on that subject, and that in the
interim those Acts shoulcl.be entered as read.
lONIAN ISLANDS.

Mr. lIIiME postponed the motion of which he had given
notice, respecting the Government of the lonian Islands, until
the lith of April.
Air. WILMOT regretted the postponement of the motion.
At present he should only observe that he was prepared to
prove that the conduct of the gallant Officer who was impli-
cated in the motion had been such as to deserve the appro-
bation of the country, as it had already received that of 'the
govcrnment. He might be allowed to inform the House that
the last dispatches received from represented the country
as king in a state of perfect tranquillity.
Colond DAVIES said his Hon. Friend had postponed his
motion at the urgent request of several Members. He should
be happy if the result of the motion proved that the Gallant
Officer in question deserved the culogium of the Hon. Secre-
tary. At present he thought it was at least premature.
IRISH FIVE PER CENTS.

CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
reviv3.l of the dropped Order of the Day for the House going
into a Committee on the Irish f. per Cents. Bill.

TIE! House being in a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the

success which had ate:l:led the operation of the English 5 per
Cents. Bill had rendered it desirable that the measure should
be adopted with respect to the Irish Stock of that description.
He should therefore propose a set, of resolutions, the same in
substance as those upon which the English Bill had been
founded. He would not discuss the question -Whether a better
bargain might or might not have been made for the public
with respect to the holders of the Irish Stock. To impose other
terms upon them might be legal, but it•would be harsh ; espe-
cially as thelegal rate of interest was higher in Ireland than in
England.' This Stock was composed of about nine millions,
besides the sum for which the Bank of Ireland were creditors ;
but the Resolutions he was about to propose applied only to the
nine millions. The Irish Bank ,were interested in about two
millions and a half. Of this, a part was irredeemable, ex-
cept by a special agreement •, and the remainder was redeema-
ble at a month's notice. That notice had been given, and he
.had every reason to believe that d satisfactory arrangement
would take place with the Bank of Ireland - and the result of
that arrangement would of course be laid before the House. At
present he should merely move the Resolution applicable -to
the nine millions, and similar in substance to those agreed
to by the House respecting the Englhh Stock.—He begged
to observe that the time for expressing dissent had been alter-'
ed to a date one month later than that mentioned in the Eng-
lish Bill ; but in fact the time would be a little shorter ; though
this lie believed would lead to no inconvenience, as Most of the
hold2rs of this stock resided in Ireland.
The Resolutions proposed by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman were then put and agettad to ; the House resumed ;
and the Report of the Committee was ordered to be received
this day.
SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.

The crrAricELLoß of the 'EXCHEQUER moved the
Qzder of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Commit-.
tee of Supply.
The House being in a Committee,
Sir JOHN OSBORN was about to propose the remaining
Rx,solutions xespecting the Navy Estimates, when -
Mr. BENNET objected. It was understood, he said, that
these Estimates were not to be brought on that night.
A conversation followed between Sir J. Ostiortx, Mr. BEN-
NET, Sir G. CLERK, and Mr. IltimE, when
Sir JOHN OSBORN agreed to withdrAw for the present
all the resolutions to which there was any objection. He then
moved the resolution respecting troops in garrison.
Mr. HUME said a distinct account should be laid before
the House as to the troops in tranriftc ; and he trusted such an
account would be produced in the Estimates next year.
This resolutioril and another for the Transport Service were
then agreed to.
Sir J. OSBORN, without wishing to disturb the arrange-
ment, if his proposal should be "thouFhtiabjectionable, sug-
gested, that the remaining resolutions might be put and agreed
to pro forma, and debated on the coming up of the Report.

He wished to know whether this would meet the convenience
of lion. Members opposite
Mi. HUME said the proposal could, not be agreed,to,
many of the resolutions required explanation, which might be
given in a Committee,' but could not be given on.the coming
up of the Report. '
Sir J. OSBORN assented, 'and did not press his sug-
gestion.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord PALMERSTON then rose to move the further consi-
deration of the Army Estimates. The first vote he would have
had to propose was for the Muster-Master-General's Office, but
as his Right Hon. Friend, the Paymaster of the Forces, 'was
absent, he would postpone it, and call the attention of the
Committee to the vote next in order, whiCh was for the ex-
penses relating to the War Office:. He had the satsisfaction to
state that a considerable reduction had been effected in that
establishment since last year. The total of the saving was
80001. upon the discharge of 16 persons. It did not appear to
be 80001. on the Estimates, because a sum of 9001. was-added,
which had been left out by mistake last year, and to which he
had called the attention of the House. The ;eying, accounting
for this sum, was 0,900/. The persons discharged, with the
amount of their ,sMaries, were, as follow :—One of 1,2001.
of 1,0001., two oflBool., two of 7001., two of 4501., one of 5001.,
and itveral of .Staillir sums. The difference of expellee this
year, compar4stisith :that of 1814, was 18,0001. ; and he had
to state that a:member of persons had been employed on arrear
accounts, and eiffshyould be reduced when that portion of the
business was.-disteisEd of. In obedience to the Treasury circu-.
lar which had been sent tattle Public Offices, he had prepared
a new scale of expence, which, when it came into3operation,
would cause a saving of between 18 and 19,0001. The prin-
ciple of this, scale was material as it regarded the increase of
salary of the persons in the, office. According to the old plan,
the right of -increase was regulated by the person's first entry
into office. By the new ' scale, it would depend upon the
length 'of lime which the person had passed in his particular
class. This would materially check the- increase of salary ; eo
Much so, that a person who entered the office at. a salary of
901. a year, would not be entitled to a salary of 800 L a.year, if
he advanced in the ordinary course. The Noble Lord con-
cluded by moving a Resolution for 43,1851. for the expences of
the War Office.
Mr. HUME remarked, that he could only make out a re-
duction of 7,0001. in this establishment, at the same time that
he observed there were additional pensions to the amount of
4,9501. When the Noble Lord spoke of a reduction of 18,0001.
since the year 1814, he ought to state to the Committee the
number of pensions recently granted, which amounted to
17,9101. The superannuation system was carried, in _the office
of the Secretary atWar, to a greater extent than it had reached
in any office under Government. In 1798, the whole establish-
ment stood the country in 16,0001.; whereas it was now up-
wards of 43,0001. With respect to the arrear accounts, he was
quite, satisfied that the establishment of clerks which, was
kept up to inspect them was of no utility whatsoever. These
accounts had been left in a state of confusion, until all who
could give any information about them were dead and gone :
and vet the Department for inspecting such accounts had
cost the public from 130 to 140,0001. in the course of the
last twenty years. He was prepared to show, that no office
under Government required a .different arrangement more
decidedly than that of the Noble Lord. No person, however,
could interfere with the 'Noble Lord in checking or controlling
the system. There was one singularity in the office, to which
he would call the attention of the Committee. There was a
Secretary at War with 2,4801. a year, and a Deputy who re-
ceived 2,5001. a year. Why had the deputy more than the
principal ? • The first clerk received 1,4001. a.year, although in
1796 his salary was but 722 L The Commissioners of Military
Inquiry, when they examined the state of the War-office, de-
liberately gave it as their opinion, " that the additions made
to the salaries of the principal clerks were granted under par-
ticular circumstances, and were, in general, to, be considered
as merely temporary." It was quite evident, that these very
high salaries were intended as a reward for great exertions
in the-time of war; and they ought therefore to cease when the
hostile operations were no longer carried on. He had expect-
ed-that the Noble Lord would lay before, the House the scale
to which he bad alluded ; of the merits of which they could not
judge, until they had an opportunity of examining it. He would
now advert to some circumstances connected with the extrava-
gance of the office. Mr. Brown had been allowed to act as com-
missary for a short time, and from that department he had
retired with 2761. a year. He had 1,2001. a yea:' as clerk. But
all that was not enough; 3001. ayear were added as clerk to the
fund for chaplains, &c. It was extraordinary, too, that each
of those clerks had 71. 15s. sd. allowed him for newspapers.
Mr. Richard Brown was thus in receipt of 19261. a year alto-
gether. If he was incorrect in any of these statements, the Noble
Lord was to blame, for detailed accounts ought to have been laid
before the House. He did not admit that the House was to lOok
only at the aeegregate amount of money. There was a Mr. Edward
Marshall, who had 7001. a year, and received besides 1501. 'for
preparing estimates to be laid before the House. Now he was
overpaid as clerk, if he was able, to spare time to make, up the
estimates. A Mr. Wilkinson had been eighteen years in the
office, and received 4501. a-year. For assisting in making up
the estimated ho received 1001.; for regulating the army list
1001. ; and for preparing lists of militia and yeomanry 1001.-1
He had, besides, some other employment connected with the
army list, and appeared altogether in six different capacities.
This plan was all of the Noble Lord's creation. A Mr. Merry
ha.r been 11 years a clerk, with a salary of 2501. He was, be-
sides, private secretary to the assistant secretary. The whole
duty of the department might be done by 15 persons, and for
15,0001. Contingencies were stated at 2,2501. Last year the
Noble Lord had stated, that not one senior clerk could be spa-
red. Yet what had lie done ? He had turned out five or six
senior clerks ; and if half a dozen more were turned out, the
business could be done as well as now. Mr. Sullivan had been
ten years in the office, and lie received 1,0001. Now had he,
by seniority or otherwise, acquired such a salary ? But it was
More. A person having 1,2001.. a year had been reduced, and
Mi. Sullivan had his salary increased to 1,200 L a year. This
was ministerial economy. He wished the Noble Lord to say,
how many-young men had been lately received into the office?
During the last two years, and since the pretended economy
had commenced, eight or nine young men had been received.
The half-pay was 17,4171. The changes which the Noble
Lord had made did not, in short, promote economy or the pub-
lic service.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Hon. Gentleman gave little
encouragement for future reductions, by the mode in which he
received those that had been adopted. He certainly did say last
year that little reduction could be expected in the War Office.;
having, however, made every exertion to reduce as much as
possible, it was rather hard now to turn back on him, and im-
pute blame for what had been done. This was an inconsist-
ency peculiar only to the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume.)
He reduced those who were receiving large salaries, and ap-
pointed others to do the business at 901. a year. There was
no other possible mode of acting. The substitution of a clerk
at 901., for one at 7001. a year was not the sort of expenditure
of which the, Honourable Gentleman ought to complain.' If
the office were now compared with what it was in 1797 and
1793, the contrast would be found very great. Then there
was a small number receiving large salaries. Now the
number was greater, but at reduced salaries. The salary of
the Deputy Secretary was fixed in future at 2,0001. ; he receiv-,
ed no allowances.- The gentleman who filled the situation
had been examiner of army accounts, at a salary of 15001. a
year. Ile had also the privilege of sunplying the garrison of
Gibraltar with coals, from which he derived 9001.. a r..ar. So
that he relinquished an income of 2,4001. a year for his present
situation, which was only 2,0001. a year. He did not know where
the Hon. Gent. (Mr.. Hume) got his information with respect
to the War Office, but he could assure him it was impossible
the business could be done with fewer hands. They were all
most laboriously employed. The duties were very heavy. A
clear proof of this was, that not less than 26 clerks had died
since 1810 of pulmonary complaints, occasioned by sedentary
habit's. Though the chief clerk had at present.l4ool. a year' it
would in future be no more than 12001. With respect to his al-
lowance as Secretary, it had been considered by the House.'
Were, and their opinion was that it should not be disturbed.
To his half-pay, as a Commissary, he was fully entitled, like
any other officer. None but the senior clerks were allowed
Newspapers. It was not peculiar to the 'War Office. The pri-
vilege was formerly -More extended than now, and the expense
was very trifling. The Hon. Gentleman charged him with hay-
ing created a system of pluralities. Now the fact was, that
upon all occasion he set his face against it as much as possi-
ble.
The Hon. Gentleman said the estimates might very easi-
ly be made up in a few days. The accuracy with which he,,
performed his arithmetical functions in that House would not
lead him to place much reliance on the calculations of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. flume) but if the Hon. Gentleman had no,
objection,, lie would give him an opportunity of convincing
himself that those things were not so easily done. To be sure
an error of a few millions was not much to him (Mr. Hume);
but it would not be so' good to submit estimates to the
House of Commons with considerable mistakes, such as those I
the Honourable Gentleman was in the habit of making. So far
from the allowance to this branch being excessive, it was perhaps
smaller than that of any other department. With respect to
Mr. 'Wilkinson, he received no allowance for editing the army
list—lie undertook it altogether on his own responsibility.—
There was an annual,as well'as a monthly army list, but both
were confounded by the Hon. Member. The monthly cost
little, but the'annual not being so much in derhand required a
larger sum. The lion. Member said, that the 15,0001. 'salary
could be divided betvieen 15 persons, but could that number
discharge the duties of the office ? A. number of names and
salaries had been commingled very erroneously 'together e and
as to Mr. Merry, he had no more than a fair remuneration. Na
man in Office could discharge his duty, unless he had persons to

assist him, and thereby be a service to the public. This pro-
posed scale was altogether prospective, and with regard to Mr.
Sullivan, he was sure, on inquiry, that his labours would be
found most useful•to the,public,, and reflected the highest cre-
dit on that individual. An increasp t 0.1,2001. was proposed"by
him as the salary of superintendant, but Mr. Sullivan now had,
and was only to have, 1,0001. a-yen,r. lie knew of no such
persons as a NIL Gaskyl or a Mr. Whitney, although in con-
sequence of the pressure of business last year he employed a
few clerks in order to expedite it. A comparison of the ex-
penditure of the office, in 179 G and now, shewed a decrease of
several thousand pounds. The abuses which took place in the
way of, fees were now done away, and since 1806 there was
diminution of from 56,0001. to 44,0001., and the number of
clerks was also diMinished. In 1813, the charge was 59,0001.,
shewing a decrease now of 15,0001. The charge of the office
by no means kept pace with the business transacted there.
The papers sent out of the office would best prove the fact :
In 1792 the number was - 7,027
1797 - - - - - 14,253
1821 - - - - - 19,792
TO prepare these Papers there were employed in

1792 - - - - 22
1797 , - - - - - ' 42
1821 - - - - 113 •
besides which, the increase of accounts and documents was, in
1796, 1225, and in 1821, 15,900. So that, looking to the busi-
ness of accounts, it would evidently be seen how much it had
increased. With respect to the arrear in the audit, he regretted
it; but such was the result of an improper economy, which did
not allow hands enough to examine the public accounts.' On
the aggregate of the accounts, there were balances due to the
public which should be collected, at the same time that the
most liberal construction should be extended to . accountants,
who were charged with arrears.
Colonel DAVIES said, the Noble Lord was blamed by'his
Hon. Friend, not for the reduction itself, but for his teodemesi
in making it, He had been driven into economy, although he
had contended against its possibility ; and it was to be ob-
served, that most of the reduced clerks received large super-
annuation salaries. The ceterion by which the House ought
to judge was, not what had been done, but what could be done
in the way of reduction. •
Mr. HUME took the opportunity of stating, whilst Hon.
Members opposite were charging Members on his side of the
House with mistakes, that it would very soon appear 'by a
paper that was on the table of the House,. that the blunder
charged upon him relative to the Navy Estimates_ was alto-
gether unfounded. He assured the House that it would soon
be seen that the mistake of which he had been accused to the
amount of seven millions was no mistake' at all • as a return
was then upon the table which had extracted the sums in the
'same
way as he had clone, and arrived'at
regard to the increase of salary to Mr. Sullivan's office
he had
only to say, that if it was made in consequence of the meits of
that individual, it was'he who ought to receive the benefit of
the increase, and not his successor. '
Lord PALMERSTON could not help observing on the ex-
traordinary course followed by the Hon. Memberfor Aberdeen 1
(Mr. Hume). In the first place, he (Lord Palmerston) had to
set him right as to his blunders about the Army List ; next, Ite
spoke of an increase of salary to a clerk in his office, and took
occasion to insinuate that the augmentation was made because
the individual was a relative of his own. He (Lord Palmer-
ston) took the pains to relieve him from his error here, by stat-
ing that that individual received no increase of salary whatever.
The Hon. Gentleman upon this got upend told'them, that this
individual, if he did not receive an increase of salary, ought to
receive it.—(Hear,, hear !l—With all deference to the Hon.
Member hi must say that it was waste of time to listen to such
speeches.:—.(H ear, hear ! )
Mr. BENNET contended that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume)
was not open to any charge of inconsistency.
Mx. W. SMITH did not think that the Noble Lord had ex-
plained the charge which had been made of a clerk having left
the War Office for the Commiesariat, and then returned to ehe
War Office, receiving a retiring pension from the Commissariat.
Lord PALMERSTON confessed he was unable to affirm
or contradict the assertion which had been made relative to the
individual in question, as it must have occurred long before
he (Lord Palmerston) came into the office. He only knew that
he had held a commission in the Commissariat, and also, that
he was Private Secretary to General Fitzpatrick, and 'received
half-pay. , -
The question was then put anti carried.
The next vote was for 26,9531. for the Army Pay Office.
Colonel DAVIES thought that the office of Paymaster-
General might very well be dispensed with, but as he did not
expect to,be able to persuade the Committee of this, he would
direct himself to the present high expenditure of the depart-
ment.' In 1797 the amount of 'salaries was 11,340. ; in 1822,
the charge was upwards of 26,0001. when the extent of the army
was not to be compared with what it was in the former period.
The salaries now amounted to 19.0001. and this, it was to be
remembered, was for an office which was ministerial, and the
duties of which might be performed by the Bank of England,
without the presenaoffice at all. It was an Office which had
undergone.searcely any revision, and was capable of a great
deal. He should not himself propose any amendment, but
would support one made by any other person.
Sir.C. LONG said; there was no office in the State which
had undergone so much revision as this. It had been subject-
ed to the consideration of a Committee in 1791, 1797, 1807,
1811, and 1317 ; and of all these; he would venture to say, that
not one of these Committees ever said ths office was useless.—
Yet the Hon. Member came down and said that all these Com-
mittees were wrong, and knew nothing of the nature of the of-
fice ' • and what had escaped the acute investigation of Lord
Colchester and Mr. Burke. who had been Chairmen of two of
the Committees, the Hon, Member's sagacity had- discovered.
The Eionourad e,Gentleman talked without knowing any thing
about the matter, superficially, not to say ignorantly, when
he called this office a Ministerial
.once. ,The paying of
half-pay, he believed, could not be called Ministerial.' But
the Hon. Member talked of the Bank being able to take all
the business out. of _his hands. In this, too, he was quite
wrong, and certainly could not have considered that amongst
the multifarious duties of his situation, were the issue of 'half-
pay, the decision in all intricate cases relative to the issue of
prize-money, pensions for soldiers' wounds, and allowances
to the widows and relations of officeo. Besides this, a great
portion of his own time was occupied in similar matters-at
Chelsea Hospital. .During the time that he had been in the
situation he had done all in his power to reduce the charge of
the Department; and when the Hon. Nlember talked of its
having undergone no revision, he must 'beg him to look at the
progressive diminution of charge, of late years. .•
In 1816 it was - £43,000 in 1820 it was - £29,400
1817 - - 34,000 1821 - 23,800
'lBlB - • - 29,000 1822 - . ‘,),6,353
1819 - - 30,000
Thus for the last six years it bad been suffering a gradual re-
duction.—(T-iear, hear.)—When- he first went into his situation
there was much buSiness in arrear—now there was none, every.
thing being before the auditors up to the latest period.. He
defied the Hon. Member to do the business with a less number ,
Of clerks than he (Sir C. Long) had. He had reduced many,
and was ready to reduce more whenever it was apparent that
it could be. done consistently. He knew that lion. Gentlemen
opposite cried out agaihst the weight of reduction falling upon
the juniors alone, the senior clerks remaining untouched.—
Noveit so happened that he had diminished the salaries of all the ,
upper clerks in his office—(Bear !)—He did not expect, how- ,
ever, that this ever would satisfy Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but
that they would rather turn round and upbraid him fer not being
more tender to the old servants of the public. Ile assured the
Committee that he had done all that was possible to 'reduce the
establishment as low as possible, consistent With the public
welfare ; but lie did not mean to say that he expected to satisfy
the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Hear, hear !) . • .
Mr. HUME thought the Right Hon. Gentleman took tole-
rable credit to himself, Considering the, amount was only
1,9081• since last year. The Right Hon. Gentleman appealed
to the Committees—he (Mr. Hume.) appealed o them also.—
By a reference to their Reports it would bd found that his
Honourable and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) was corn-.
pletely borne out in stating this to be a Ministerial office, and•
that the whole of the duty of the office might be done with
greater ease by the Bank. All that the office did was, after
making the applicant for payment go through half a dozen
rooms, to give a cheque on the Bank of England after all. -But
the Right Hon. Gentleman's time was taken.up in deciding.
.Chelsea Hospital cases. What has the Pay Office to 4o 'with
the Right Hon. Gentleman belonging to the Board of Chelsea
Hospital ? Notwithstanding his great exertions lie could as-
sure him that some of 'the Army Agents could teach' him to
simplify his plans. He wished to know whether the Commit-
tee about to be appointed to 'inquire into the mode of keeping
public accounts, were to carry their investigations to other
offices than the Treasury ? If so, he was sure their Report
would point out a mode of simplification for the Pay. Office.
He wished to know whether he was to understand that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had added the department-of foreign
half-pay to hit office ? If so, he ought to have done it without
any addition to the number of clerks.
Sir C. LONG said, that it was all very well for the Hon.
Menther to talk about simplifying his mode of keeping ac-
cconts ; but he_nust remind libel that he was a public accomp-
tant 03 the extent of three hundred millions, and took great re-
sponsibility on himself. In answer to the Hon. Gentleman,
relative to the foreign half-par, he had to state that he had
made the issue of that money In addition to the duties of the
office over which he presided. He • found Mr. Disney, who
before had the charge of issuing it, had 'six 'elerks for that
purpose, and out of them-he had selected the two repdrted. to
him to be the most compatentaa-(Hear.)-e-And even these were
'engaged with a forewarning that their services would be dis-
pensed with whenever it should appear that a more economical

arrangement could be made. They received the same salary '
as from Mr. Disney, and surely there waS' no exercise of pa-
tronage in this.—(Hear.)—lt was his wish .to do the best for the
public service, but he certainly did despair of being able to
satisfy Hon. entlemen opposite. ,
. . Colonel DAVIES explained... . . .
Lord PALMERSTON begged to say, that it was quite im-
possiblethat the Bank could perform the duties of the Pay-
master-General. That officer had.not only to pay the demands
made tipon him, but had also to ascertain the accuracy of these
demands. It had been asked what had the Paymaster-General
to do with Chelsea Hospital ? His answer was, that in virtue
of his office, he was Chairman of the Board of Chelsea Hos-
pital—( Hear.)
Mr. PE ARSE represented the notion of the Bank of Eng-
land being able to discharge all the duties of the Paymaster-
General as meet extravagant.
After a few words from Col. DAVIES and Mr. HOME, the
vote was agreed to. . .
The next votes were—
For
the Adjutant-General's Department at Head-
quarters - • - - ' - - - - 6,844
For the Adjutant-General's Department' in North
B
For'th_ esorpQeuaryteearrasMaasgtoe.r-.Glent erua,las's .hDies desire
ent ' at
Head-quarters - - - - - - 6,176
For the Corresponding DepartmenteNorth Britain 250
For Judge-Advocate-General's Department - 4,580
Mr. HUME asked whether the reduction of 6001. in this
vote was in consequence of the dismissal of the Judge-Advo-
cate-General for North Britain-?
' Lord PALMERSTON
,said, that that officer had been re-
dus d, hut it did- not"appear in the Estimates. The reduction
apparent in the vote was in consequence of the reduction of the
Deputy Judge-Advocate ; so .that there was a double retrench•
ment to the amount of I,2ool.—(Hear, hear !)
Mr. •HUME said, he was sorry to find there was no inten-
tion to bring back the salary of the Judge-Advocate-General
to any thing like what it was formerly. When it was remem-
bered that Sir C. Morgan held that- situation for so great a
length of tilde, .at a salary of 1,3001., it enust be evident that
2,5001. in time of peace must be extravagant. Unless it were
the intention to reduce that amount of -salary, he certainly
should- take ehe.seuse of the House on a motion for doing so in
the present Estimates.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; that in
consideration of the high and important duties attached to the
situation, the-rank of the officer; and his immediate communi-
cation with the Sovereign, when this office had been settled in
1807, the present salary had been given to the Judge-Advo-
.cateeGeheial.. NOW that-the increased burden of the duties of
the Judge-Advocates of Scotland and Ireland had fallen upon,
this Officer, with the loss of his. most able assistant, he did not
think it was the-time to reduce his salary.—(Hear !)
- , Mr. MallE thought that the duties of the office must be so
much diminished in time of peace, that a salary of 1,5001.
would be quite enough for a Judge Advocate. He therefore
moved that in place of 4,5801., the vote be 3,5801.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed; that the office of
Judge Advocate General had been on its present footin,g- since
the Revolution. The duties had considerably increaeed since
that period, and though in the time of Sir C. Morgan no addition
had been made to the salary, it was not because there was no
reason for doing so, but because the large fortune of the indivi-
dual rendered. any addition of that kind a matter of no importance
to him. But to consider the question on its fair merits, the Office
was of the utulost consequence to the army. The lives, fortune,
and character of military officers were, in a measure, dependant
upon the manner in which its duties were fulfilled. . The Hon.
Gentleman had said, that those duties were diminished since
the peace; but the fact was; that the number of Reports made
to the Advocate-General had increased in a two-fold degree
. since the year 1811. In the course of- the last year, no less
than 400 General Courts Martial had taken place. The
Judge Advocate-General had to read all the proceedings, and
to decide whether the evidence was legal, and according to the
practice of courts of law. He had also. to advise the Com-
mander-in-Chief, and the Secretary at War upon important
occasions, and to afford his advice to officers stationed in the
different colonies, upon various topics connected with the admi-
nistration of military jurisprudence. If he discharged the
duties of his office faithfully, not a single day could pass over
him, many hours 'of which must not have been employ-
ed: No person could say that the salary fixed by-the Admi-
nistration of Mr. Grenville and Mr. Fox was too much. It was
also to be considered that the duties of the Judge Advocate for
Ireland-were now annexed to this office, and that no increase of
salary attended this additional labour. The office of Judge
Advocate for Scotland had been also abolished, and its duties
were transferred to the Judge Advocate-General. All this had
Occurred since 1807, when the present rate of salary was fixed.
He trusted, therefore,under these circumstances, that the
Committee would not feel disposed to accede, to the proposie
tion of the Honourable Member for Aberdeen. '
Mr. HUME admitted that the Judge-Advocate had a bet-
ter Counsellor in the Honourable and Learned Gentleman than
in himself when he was in the House; but he could as soon
be persuaded that black was white, as that the \ duties of:his
office were as great now, in time of peace, as they had been in
a period of war. .
The SPEAKER trusted he would be excused by the Com-
mittee, if he addressed a few words to them on the present
subject; the Judge-Advocate himself not being a Member
oftrhitai
the House, ous'e,- and he (the- Speaker) having -he'ld- that situ-
ation32otomake the
'COmmiltee acquainted with the important nature of- the
duties . which that officer was called upon to discharge.
--(Hear, hear, hear !)--Had it been a mere question as to ale
• reduction of salary, he would not have troubled them ; for he
'did-not think the importance of the duties of any public officer
was to be measured by the amount of his salary. But lie
was most anxious that the Committee should not be-misled
' into-a notion, that the difficulties, the importance, and the de,
licacy of the duties of this officer were reduced- to nothing
by a change from war to peace.—( Hear hear; hear.)--He was
anxious also that it should be understood that they could es-
timate the extent of his labour by the number cf proceedings,
counted . numeratim, which came into his office. , He believ-
ed that, during the period he had the honour to hold that
,
-situation, a greater number of paperslad passed through the
office than at any former. or subsequent period ; but fie did
not consider .that his greatest. difficulty lay in the number
'of the calls thus made upon his attention. No individual
could discharge the duties of that office who did not attend
most closely.; Called- upon to advise his Sovereign • on the
angst grave and delicate matters to individual character and
fortune, he had no right to do so without a previous inti-
mate knowledge of all the circumstances of the case.—( Hear,
Bear!)—There was no Judge Advocate in any part of the
world where the King's troops were that was not re-
sponsible • for their proceedings. Admirably formed for all
practicable purposes as was a Court Martial, yet the great
difficulty was, that it was -not composed of lawyers. He
assured the House, however, to counterbalance that want, that
in reporting to the Crown, he did not sift the evidence to see
'whether the charge had been proved or - not, but, whether' the
evidence on which it was proved was legal or illegal ;—(Hear,
hear !)—and the individual had the benefit of every point of
law that could be construed in his favour.—(Hear l)—During
the first two }ears he -had been in that situation, lie assured
the House that he was not absent from Downing-street five
weeks, and never could have been absent a fortnight at one
time.—(Hear!)—He believed not a day passed that he had not
communications of the strictest confidence with the Com-
mander-in-Chief, the Secretary at War, and the Secretaries of
State. If the office were -to be maintained, it must be in that
dignity which alone could enable an individual to sustain the
responsibility of it, and do justice to the army.—(Hear, hear !)
If therefore they were disposed to make the salary 1,5001. in-
stead-of 2,5901., it must be on any otheround. than on ac-
count of the non-importance of the office.—(Hear, hear !)
The Committee then divided— .
For the Amendment - - - 18
- Against it - - - - - 124
. Majority - - —lO6
. ..
The Estimate was then agreed to. '
The sum of 12,76.51. was then voted for the Comptroller of
Army Accounts, Clerks, &c.
The sum of 5,7151. being moved for the expense of the
Medical' Department,
Mr. HUME wished to have the expense of both brenchee of
the Medical Department in the nature of one establishment.
He considered the sum more than strict economy ought to
allow. • -• , -
Lord PALMERSTON said the duties were of the most im-
portant description ; the officers, of the establishment were en-
trusted with the health of the troops.
The Estimate, and also that for the Medical Department in
Ireland, were agreed to. .
The sum of 19,3531. was granted for Medicines for the
Hospitals. .
ror Volunteer Corps in Ireland, 61,3191.
To defray the expense of the different troops recruited for
die East India Company's service, the sum of 53,1081. .
To the Estimate for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst,
amounting to 13,6021. Mr. MIME objected. -He wished.to
know what occasion there was for so many Staff Officers? The
Goverhor and Staff Officers were, in the Honourable Member's
opinion, an unnecessary expence to the country. The young
men educated at the Establishment were numerous. Although
they had 290 pupils, it was well known they could not receive
commissions. It was cruel to educate young men for a station
they could not attain. The Honourable Member having stat-
ed the whole of his objections, proposed a reduction of 50001.
from the vote.
Lord PALMERSTON said it was obvious the Hon., Gen:
tleman's object was not so much to reduce the vote as to break
' down the establishment. ' The question was, whether there

ought not to be a place for officers to receive professional int
struction ? Any man who had turned his mind to military
history must know that unless an army, was commanded
by officers acquainted with the discipline of troops, they had
no hope of gaining a victory. Military education was not
neglected in other countries. Thee only mode of securing
the instruction of officers was having an establishment. 'With
respect to the number of Staff' Officers, it must be ob-
vious to all who paid the least attention to the description of
pupils at the Institution, that unless there were military men
of rank to command respect from the Students, the public
money would be thrown away. Adveeting to the disposal of
the Students, the Noble Lord stated, that out of 2,596, the
total number of Students who had been at the Establishment,
1,821 had been in the military service of the country. In the
United States of America a College had.bedn established on
the principle of this establishment. .A standing army in Ame-
rica was not, it appeared, incompatible with freedom. With a
standing army ot 5 or 6,000, men the Americans had in their
College 272 cadets. In this country, with a standing army of
60,000, the cadets in the Military College were only 290. There
was no fair pretence for saying the number of students was ex-
cessive.

Mr. F. PALMER was willing to admit that young men
ought to be educated, but he considered the expense too great.
The Governor and Secretary Governor were certainly not
necessary.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY considered reduction in this esti-
mate necessary. The lion. Baronet disclaimed all opposition
but that which proceeded from a desire to serve the country.
Lord PALMERSTON was satisfied the College derived the
greatest advantage from the services of the Governor.
Mr. F.-PALMER explained.

Mr. BENNEiidia.rp-TZi;to see more than one hundred
boys, the sons of officers, educated at 'the Establishment.
Colonel WOOD said, the sons of Officers in the College
were just 100; and 110 were sons of persons not Officers, who
paid for their education, so that the Hon. Members who sitp.
ported the amendment were only contending about 80 students.
He was convinced the Governor was of great benefit to the-
eitablishment. -

The question being, called for, the Committee again divided:
For the Amendment - 26
Against it - 75
Majority - -49

The Estimate was then voted

Lord PALIIIr:MSTON immediately after said, it was not
his intention to go farther with the discussion on that occasion,
but he proposed to proceed with the Navy Estimates on Friday.
The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received on Friday.

- Mr. WILBRAHAM. gave notice of his intention.to bring
in, a Bill on the 29th inst. toregulate the Trade of Canada.
The other. Orders of the Day were read, and the House ad-
journed at ONE O'CLOCK.