The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

ment itself? The Honourable Member for Hull had given
notice that night of a motion to reduce the tax on Candles; that
proposition, if entertained, would have its effect—the state of
foreign politics--the general situation of' Europe—the-state
of Ireland—the state of England, all must affect every day the
state of public credit. With respect to unfairness, he thought
it would be very unfair to give parties three or four months
to express their dissent to certain terms, whilst the party
who offer those terms were bound in the first instance.—
His Right Honourable Friend had said that Mr. Pelham
said nothing as to the time of paying off the debt;
she thought
that the proof of sincerity and good faith marked the plan of
his Right Honourable Friend; the parties surely had no-
thing to complain of, the parties advanced their money to
the State on the express understanding that at a certain
period that debt was likely to be paid off. The terms that were
offered was the amount of their debt in money, or a security,
which was more advantageous. Unless Government were pre-
pared to offer these terms, the Resolution of his Hon. Friend
could not have been proposed to that House, rior books could
not have been opened at the Bank. There was, be contended,
no departure from the spirit of the Act of Parliament—there
was no breach of faith—the Legislature only was doing that
which on every principle they had a right to do, for the benefit
of the country ; they proposed a plan which would have the
effect of diminishing the public burthens, without leaving the
creditor any just cause of complaint.

Mr. WILLIAMS said, he was one of those who viewed
this measure as contrary to law, of bad policy, and bad also
in the mode of execution. In discussing the first of these
objections, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had altogether
omitted to advert to the Act which created the stock in ques-
tion. That Act was the 24th of thi, late King, and not the
37th, which had been exclusively referred to by all who had,
taken part in the discussion. That Act said in terms, that
this stock should not be redeemalle till 25 millions of the
public debt had been paid off and redeemed. Mr. Pitt was a
party to that Bill, and his words at the time sheaved, and
there could be no doubt, that the Act did contemplate the
reduction of twenty-fine millions below what the politic
debt then was. Ile sheaved from the Attorney-General,
what was the law of the case, such being the words. lint
would any lawyer contend that this condition had been com-
plied with, because they bad borrowed with one hand and
redeemed with another -? Next lie had a doubt as to the mode
in which the-operation was effected. It was said from the
other side that an option had • been given. For himself, he
begged to state, that he had not one farthing in the Five per
Cents., and therefore had no
.personal interest in what
he said. But when he heard it stated by the Right Honour-
able Gentleman who had just sat down, that the terms were
well understood, he must say that he (Mr. Williams) dio not
at that moment.understand what the terms were, nor (lid he
believe the Chancellor of the -Exchequer could .himself tell.
them. The real terms must depend upon when they paid the
1001. sterling to the dissentient. T
hey might pay them in a
month, or in twenty years hence ; hut. the value of the pro-
perty of those who dissented could only be estimated by a
knowledge of the period of their being paid off. The state of
Europe—the RUSSiall and Turkish war—the state of France,
and other like circumstances, Must influence his opinion, and
he could never come to any determination till he knew when
he was likely to get his 1001. sterling if he dissented. But not
only were the parties unable to understand the terms, but
they were not permitted to do with their property what the
Act, on the faith of which they invested it, entitled them to.
They must blindly subscribe to the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer's terms. He referred, as a proof of this, to •two papvrs
of dissent which he held in his hand, which had been reject-
ed by the Bank. The paper was according to the printed
form delivered •at the Bank; but in place of the words at
the end—" and I do desire to be paid off in money," it ran,
" I do not desire to he paid off in money, hut require to be
paid aecording to the terms of the 24th George.lll," This
'was rejected by the Cashier of the Bank, and thus it was proved
that the Act in question was a perfect nullity, and that the
holder of this stock Must expose himself to other conditions
imposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The other dis.
sent, .which had been similarly rejected, was worded in the.
same way, in the joint names of four persons. This might
he called keeping faith with the public creditor, but he con-
sidered it in a very different light, and thought it was a course-
of proceeding altogether adverse•from the interests of the na-
tion. He regarded the Sinking Fund, .which bad been
brought in aid of the measure, as.a delusion which had im-
posed the falsehood on the country for theiast forty years•
that Government had been borrowing money on terms advan-
tageous to the nation. In the face of such an assertion, would
it he believed that of 250.000,0001. of debt created by loans in
the late war, nut one shilling had r found its way to the public
coffers ? •Wben they looked at it in this point of view 1 hey
saw it in its true colours. He considered a real Sinking Fund
as that which relieved the country-front a portion of the re-
sponsibility of providing for the ...eflarge of the debt. The
Hon. Member for Coventry was right, when he said that only
one million of debt would be-saved by this measure in seven
years. There was another way of transferring one stock into,
another, which would create a saving year after yeltr, and
place them in a few years in a much better situation than
they now were. •If the Chancellor of the Exchequer'were to
fund his Navy Bills in a new stuck at Five per Cent., irre-
deemable 'under twenty-fire years, he would have that stuck
at 1001. worth front 1201. •to 1251. market' price, without any
loss on either side. -If they took 155 millions stock at 1201.,
the hundred, it would hear an interest of 7,750,0001. This
would reduce the nominal capital to 125,500,0001.-being a
saving of 29,500,00011 with the interest of that sum. Nothing
but such a reduction of debt would 'save the country fromH
impending evils. The plans of the Chancellor of the Ex-1
' chequer tie entirely disapproved of. He was not in the
habit of using strong language, but he must say, that
he used every art and trick 'to raise the price of the
funds. He now •contemplated raising the Three per
Cents, to 90, and then he would reduce the Four per
Cents. But did he consider the loss to the country by this
operation ? With tht-Sinking, Fund, five millions would buy
up 5,240,0001. the stock being at 701., but at 901. it would
require upwards of six millions to buy up the same quan-
tity. of stock, entailing a loss to the nation of nearly
1,500,0001. If the Eight Honourable Gentleman were to
con Pert the three per cents. into a five per cent, stock, irre-
deemable under 28 years, it •would have the power of dimi-
nishing the capital of the debts to the amount of .200,000,0001.
He was so fully satisfied that the present system of the Sink-
ing Fund was a fatal delusion, that he most anxiously desired
to see the end of it. The capital of the debt never would be
lowered but increased by it, because it involved the necessity
of raising the price of fimds. He would not on the present
occasion diverge into these topics, but he hoped they would
soon have a Committee, in which the whole system might be
fully canvassed.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL rose in consequence of bar-
ing been called upon to giVe his opinion. He would first
direct himself to the upihion of - the Honourable Gentle-
man who spoke last, and a hose opinion was different
from all the others that had been given. He said that to
admit of the reduction of the five per cent. stock, it was
necessary that twenty-five millions of debt should be reduced
below the amount of debt which existed at the time of pass-
ing the Act of the 24th •Geo. 111. The Hon. Member was to
bear in mind that a number of Acts on the subject had been
passed, viz, the 24th, 35th, 26th. 37th, and others, regu-
lating the paying off of this stock. But it was always un-
derstood that the 37th George Illi., re-enacted the 24th.'on
which the Honourable Member had laid so much stress.—
Whatever might have been the object in 1786, with regard
to diminishing the public debt twenty-five millions, be
believed it would not be contended that any such pro-
spect was contemplated in 1794, 1795, 1796, or 1797. when,
however, it might lie very consistent with probability to
suppose that such amount of the public debt might be re-
duced at a future period. Now as to the argument founded
on the assertion that the money which had redeemed any of
the debt was borrowed with one hand and paid with the other,
he would quote the Act of the fifty-third of the late King,
which, after reciting the Debt, declared, that " 238,000,0001.
have actually been purchased, or transferred to the Commis-
sioners fur the Redemption of the National Debt." This,
therefisre, was equal to the whole of the debt in 1786, and the
Act went on to say, " And that amount of debt shall be
deemed satisfied, and discharged, and be struck off the books."
Thus was the 25 millions not only redeemed in this way, but
it was also done by the sale of the Land Tax. He had there-
fore no hesitation in saying, that it was his opinion that his
Majesty's Government were competent to payoff the Five per
Cent. Stock.—(Hear !) •
11Ir. WILLIAMS explained.

Mr. W. SMITH haol no doubt that the twenty-five millions
required to be paid off by At of Parliament bad been paid
off by the Redemption of the Land Tax, But it was per-
fectly absurd to suppose that the mode of reducing the debt
by raising money on loan for that purpose, was sufficient to
justify the present measure. He agreed with the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just spoken (Mr. Williams). that raising the
funds might facilitate the financial operations, but they re-
tarded the reduction of the National Debt,
Mr. MONCK said, that if the amount of the dissentient
Stork was very great, it might be five years before it was pal]
off, which would make such a difference in value betssixt the
first and last as would be at least equal to five per cent.. He
thought the Frerieh mode was much more fair, where the dis-
sentients were paid off as they were drawn out by chance, in
the manner of the lottery. Thus every man was equal with
the others, He perfectly agreed with the Hun. Member for
Weymouth, that the Sitiking Fund was a delusion, and that
it would be better to offer a bonus to the holder of the three
per cent. stock to take five per cent. stock, in
_place of the
present measure.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee, and the
Bill was read para►craph by paragraph.
Mr. 1.1/SHINGTON explained that it was intended to
allow the Accountants General of the Conrt of Chancery and
Exchequ, r to the 30th June, to make their dissent to any
monies for which they were trustees.
Mr. CALCRAFT did not see the ground upon which these
parties were to be exempted in preference to all others.
The ATTORNEY7GENERAI, stated that the Accountant-
General had many persons to consult, and the delay might be
considera bl e.

Mr. CALCRAFT said he did not object to the indulgence,
but contended that it should be extended to all other parties.
Mr. COURTENAY said, the Accountant-General was not
like an ordinary trustee. He had so many persons to con-
sult, and the Court through him would attend to the wishes
of the suitors.

Mr. R. SMITH thought it would be better to vest the
power of extending the time for dissent in the Lord Chan-
cellor, upon application from the suitors.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY asked, how the Bill would pro-
vide in the case of a Trustee who was called upon to decide
without the power of communicating •with the person for
whom he acted:
The ATTORNEY-GENERA said, it must be entirely
discretionary.

Dr. LUSUINGTON wished to know how it would be in
case of several Trustees. If the majority wished to dissent,
were they nut to have the pOwer of doing so?,
The AT"FOIINEY-GENERAT. said, it roost be in that case
as in all others where a change of property was involved—the
parties most be unaninious.

Dr. LUSHINGTON contended, that the case was different
here, as the dissentients would be those declaring against a
change of property.

Ali. I.IIHI.NGTON said, there would be an explanatory
Bill.

Mr. WETHERELL thought the two Bills ought to proceed
pani passu, and it would he worth while to consider whether
they had not better defer going further into the Report, and
wait till Monday or Tuesday next, for the first reading of the
second Bill, in order that the two Bills might go through the
Committee, together. He thought the trustees and executors
acting fairly, fur those whose interests were confided to them
must he protected. If these bad been left liable for any loss
to which the annuitant might be exposed, some specific pro-
vision ought to he made for their security. With respect to
a very large class, the owners of small quantities of stock, it
had been provided they might transfer with a new stamp.
This provision ought to be made for cases where the minority
or the majority of trustees could not be taken. He hoped
this measure would be carried into effect
.with equal advan-
tage to the Government and the country. In that which was
now done it was material to consider what would be the
effect of the future measure in a new war, should it be neces-
sary to raise a loan by creating a new five per cent. stock. It
would be injurious to the country if any thing were decided
on, that would depreciate such stock. Many additional pro-
visions -vere necessary ; and as it was admitted that soothes
Bill must be brought in to comprehend these, he thought it
might be desirable that this should not pass till the other
measure Mlle before the House.
Mr.-LUSHINGTON -offered a few Words which were inau-
dible in the Gallery.
Mr. DENMAN said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
on a former night observed, with respect to the Trustees, that
if they acted to. the injury of those they represented, they must
in certain cases make good the loss out of their own pockets.
The present measure exposed then to;evils of so alarming a'
description that he thought the House ought not to go a step
further without providing. for the protection of persons thus
circumstanced. He also thought the measure defective with
respect to assenting and non-assenting Trustees.
Mr..LUSHINGTON thought there was some mistake, with-
respect to what had fallen from the Chancellor -of the Ex-
chequer on a former evening. He had no hesitation in say--
ing that Trustees acting beau fide for the benefits of the an-
unitants must be protected.
Mr. MA BE RLEY hoped no improperhaste or injustice would
be imputed to Parliament for their conduct on this occa-
sion. In passing a measure so' beneficial to the country, it
would be disgraceful to take any unfair advantage of those
most immediately affected by it.
Mr. T. WILSON believed what the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had said on a former. night was this parties
acted to their own wrong, they most take the consequences."
He was glad the subject then under consideratism had been
pressed on rhe consideration of Ministers better than be could
have pressed it on them. Their attention would, be trusted,
he given to it, and that alarm set at rest which must other-
wise be created. He wished not to thwart the measure,
but to see it carried into operation in the must beneficial
manner.

The clause was then agreed to.
The clause respecting New per Cents. was amended by the
addition of words declaring the dividends should be paid free
from all taxes, charges, and imposi•ions, the same as those of
the Navy Fire per Cents. had been.
- On-the clause requiring those who dissented from the plan
to signify their dissent between the 4th and the pith of March,
‘lr. DENMAN felt it to he his duty to move an amend-
ment, that the peilod should be extended to the 30th March.
Mr. MARRYATI' thought it desirable the measure
should pass speedily, in order as much as possible to prevent
stock-jobbing. At present his name stood to a quantity of
stock in which he had no interest. He had been placed in
this situation by the trustee of a minor, who was at present
in a very distant country. He wished to know. in such a
case if he were bound to assent or dissent bythe IGth March)
Some regulation seemed necessary• to meet such cases.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT believed it to be impossible for the
House to act so as to prevent stock jobbing on this subject.
He thought the other Bill ought to be brought in before this
passed, that those concerned might have time to exercise
their judgment on the alternative submitted to them.—
What objection could there be to allow time to bring the
two Bills before the House together, so as to let the public
knOw exactly what was to be done. Considering this to be a
beneficial measure, he thought nothing could he more preju-
dicial to it than tho attempt now made to huiry it through
the House.

Mr. LUSHINGTON agreed that time ought to he afforded
to the parties to form their judgment; hut this, he thought,
had already been done. More time coutd not he necessary
to enable the holders of Five per Cents. to decide whether
they would prefer 1051. in the Four per Cents, or be paid
'lool. sterling. For the cases which had been been mentioned
provision would be made.

Mr. SCARLET f could not agree that sufficient time had
been afforded fairly to enable the holders of Five per cent.
stock to determine what it was for their interest to do. The
time would probably have elapsed within, which they must
decide, before this Bill passed. Now he thought, as they
could not tell how far the Four per cent, stock might be de-
preciated by the present measnre, and the other that was to
follow it, till both had paßsed, they could not judge of the
choice offered to them. He should, therefore, support the
amendment, as he would any proposition that went to extend
the lime allowed to the parties for considering still further
than the SOt h March.

Mr. CALCIUM' objected to the Bill being passed noW, as
it called on the holders of the Fire per cents. to accede to cer-
tain terms before it was exactly known what these terms
were. In some cases; this Bill must come upon those whose
interests it-affected as an ex post facto law. In thelcase on
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer bottomed the present
measure, three months had been allowed to dissent from it.

. .
- Mr. DENMAN thought the period full short which-he had
named, and contended that it would be a breach of public
faith to -refuse further time for consideration.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY understood his Hon.
Friend the Secretary to the Treasury had consented to enlarge
the provisions to-the Bill, so as -to relieve the Trustees from
that degree of responsibility which had been supposed to
attach to them. The question now was, whether or not
the time for dissenting from the plan should be extended
beyond the 16th of March. He could not go along with
the Learned Gentleman in thinking that till the Bill had
passed, the parties could not understand the terms sub-
mitted to them. The Bill' could teach them little which
they had not learned froM the resolutions passed on the 2711 i
•of February. They had merely to decide whether they would
take 1051. in Four per Cent. Stock, or receive 1001. sterling ;
whether they would receive one hundred pounds, or take that
which, according to the present price, was better. But a
Right Honourable Gentleman bad argued, that they could
not decide what it Would be for their interest to do till the
political horizon had.cleared up, and the question of peace
or war in another part of Europe decided. He should he glad
to know when that time was likely to arrive at which no
question of importance was likely to be in agitation which
must in some degree affect she situation of this great coun-
try? Were they to decline carrying into effect a measure like
the preient till the prospects of the country were so clear,
that none of the parties would run ally risk of mistaking the
course which would be most conducive to their interest ?
Were the measure delayed till the result of the present dif-
ferences and negociations which had been alluded to should
be known, it was to be expected that by that time new events
would arise on which the parties would be as much in doubt
as they were at present. The question on which they had to
decide was very simple. It was merely whether the: would
receive their 1001. or something better.. It was intended to
make further provisions for the security of trustees. Great
inconvenience would result from delaying to pass this Rill,
as It would occasion much stock-jobbing, which it was de-
sirable to prevent.

Mr. I'lEtNEY.saitl that the Noble Marquis bad ulna mis-
taken him, if he thought he had stated that they ought to