The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

Tll

that something must be done for the plople. of Ireland,
and he was anxious to hear what the Government
meant to do.—(Hear, hear.) He did not wont there-
fore to encumber himself with abstract propositions.
He must, however, confess that laying a rate in
all, upon the north of Ireland, was merely retributive
justice.—(Hear, hear.) When at the time of Crom-
well's invasion, his followers possessed themselves of the:
land in that province, the owners who were dispassessrd,
were told to go to hell or Connaught—and they tools
the alternative, and went to Contiaught.—(llear, and
laughter.) There they settled and rapidly increased—
and now as an act of retributive justice the population
of -Ulster were called on to aid in supporting the de-
scendants of the men who hal been driven by their
forefathers to Connaught.—(Hear, hear.) If the rate
in aid was to be opposed, he hoped it would be upon
better grounds than any he had heard advanced by the
Hon. Member.
Lord CASTLEREAGFI recommended the Hon.
Member for Rochdale (Mr. Slv,rinan Crawford) to
withdraw his amendment, but said if he press, ,d it to a
division ho (Lord Cutlereagh) would vote in its favour.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD regretted he could not comply
with the Noble Lora's request.
After a few words from the Marquis of GranV, Col.
Dunne, Sir John Walsh, and Mr. Reynolds, the House
divided, when there appeared—

For the amendtiaent ... 15
Against, it ... ... 139
Majority against the amendment ... —124

On the original motion being put,
Sir J. WALSH said that he reeretted to find that
the Ministers found considerable promptitude on the
part of every Committee that they selected, he would
nut use the word packed, for the purpose of carrying
nut measures for Ireland according to their own views.
He felt bound to say that the Ministry had no precedent
or experierce of the House for their mode of action
with regard to the poor-laws of that country, and, he
contended that the sixpsnnv rate in aid to be proposed
by the Noble Lord (Lord- John Russell) would be
equally inadequate and useless as the 10,000,0001.
already engulphed, and as the 50,0001., which would
be also swamped; and that before the end of the present
session there would be another call on the time and at-
tention of the House for a double rate in aid.—
(Hear.) The proposed rate in aid amounting
to 330,000/. would not be sufficient for the sup-
port of the twenty-one insolvent unions even for two
months, and all the disastrous evils attendant on that
wretched country were to be attributed rather to the
vicious system of legislation hurriedly carried through
by the Minister's ignorance of the condition of the coun-
try. He contended that nothing could be more unjust
or impolitic than to tax Ulster and Leinster, in addition
to their present oppressive taxation, for the support of
Connaught and Munster ; for such a line of proceeding,
he felt assured, would drive the farmers of those pro-
vinces from their native homes to America or some other
country. He totally disagreed with the Hon. Member
for Stroud (Mr. Scroite) that the blame was to be laid
on the Irish proprietors, and argued that all was owing
to a vicious systeni of legislation. He thought that the
plan of local taxation, which they here proposed, was
not the proper mode of proceeding ; and fur that reason,
he should certainly take the sense of the House upon the
question of the Speaker's leaving the chair, in the event
of the resolution of the Hon. Member for Rochdale being
rejected:—(Cries of " Divide.)
Mr. NAI'IER complained of the conduct of the Go-
vernment, after promising a comprehensive scheme of
remedial measures, in bringing forward the plan of an
auxiliary fund. Even were that proposition not prema-
ture, he thought that if no more just measures of relief
could have been suggested than this, at least they should
not have been called upon to affirm the principle that
for the poverty of Connaught, and to raise an auxiliary
fund to make up deficiencies in those insolvent unions,
it was reasonable to tax the industry and the honesty
and the virtue of localities which had no connexion
whatever with the districts which were the objects of
their legislation. He would not attempt to draw any
distinction in these matters between Catholics and Pro-
testants, between the north of Ireland and the west, but
he would most earnestly submit to the House, that the
tenantry or Ulster were not in any degree responsible
for the distress of Connaught. It was trifling with
the interests and rights of property to make the
prosperous land pay for the unfortunate. They said
they had a large number of helpless creatures, and he
asked them how they were to enable the social ma-
chinery of the community to keep in action? Obviously
they had no other system than that of maintaining a vast
army of these mendicants by the resources of the labour.
ing and thriving population. In short, they intended to
allow want and indolence to fatten on competent provi-
sion and industry. Those being his views on the ques-
tion, he should oppose the adoption of a line of policy so
inconsistent with justice.—(hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the two Hon. Mem-
bers who had resisted the motion of the Speaker's leav-
ing the chair had followed a most extraordinary course,
in protracting a debate which, two hours before, they
expressed themselves anxious to bring to a conclusion.
He would not fellow those Hon. Gentlemen into the
various matters of which they had spoken, but he would
earnestly appeal to the House not to oppose any further
impediment in the way of his Noble Friend, or to pre-
vent him from laying before the House the plan of the
Government, accompanieil by sloth explanations of it as
the House required. At a time sit hen there was on all
hands admitted to be so much necessity for dispatch, and
considering that it was their object to prevent the pro •
grass of destitution and starvation., he did hope that this
discussion might new terminate.—(Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said there appeared to be some mis-
conception on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman as
to the manner in which the business of the House had
been conducted that evening. A resolution had been
moved by the Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Craw-
ford), against which he (Mr. Disraeli) and many- gentle-
men on his side of the House thought it their duty to
vote. It invited them to declare that it was uncon-
stitutional and unjust to impose on Ireland separate na
tional taxation for the wants of particular bealities, so
long as the public general revenue of Ireland was raid
into an Imperial Treasury, and pieced at the disposal
of an Imperial Legislature for the general purposes
of the United Kingdom. He, for one, could not
assent to that proposition. If the financial system
of the two countries had been identical, if there
had been a fiscal, as there was a political union be-
tween the two countries, he should have voted with
the Hon. Member; but remembering that the systems
of taxation prevailing in England and in Ireland were
different—remembering that the Queen's subjects in
Ireland were not liable to the window-tax, or other
assessed taxes, or to the property tax, ho thought that
the proposition which the lion. Gentleman called upon
them to affirm was not one which he could support. He
could not approve of that part of those tactics which
were sometimes adopted by Hon. Members for Ireland,
who on fiscal subjects always insisted that there should
be a difference between the two countries, while on po-
litical subjects they were always ready to affirm that
the two countries were identical. But the only propo-
sition before the House was the proposition of the Go-
vernment; and they were now asked to go into Com-
mittee to sanction, in fact, the scheme of the Govern-
ment. Now he was equally opposed to that proposition
as to the proposition of the Hon. Member for Rochdale;
and was it not evident, after the new regulations to which
they had all agreed for the dispatch of public business,
that when the amendment of the Hon. n mber for
Rochdale was disposed of, it was totally impossible to
oppose the scheme of the Government except by moving
a direct negative? The Right lion. Gentleman who had
just addressed them in a tone of great indignation had
asked—Was it not known to all that they were opposing
the only means by which the Minister could explain the
proposition which he had to recommend to their notice?
lie (Mr. Disraeli) did nut agree with the Right Hon.
Baronet. The Noble Lord might have risen immediately
when the question was moved; he might have moved
that question himself and have made an exposition of
his reasons for proposing the adoption of his resolution.
It would not have been an unusual course—(Hear, hear)
—but a usual course; and it would even have be en a re-
spectful course.— (Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
His Right Honourable Colleague (Mr. Ltbouchere) last
year entered into a preliminary exposition on the sub
ject of the navigation-laws. That instance was not so
strong as the present; because the Right Honourable
Gentleman had not placed his resolutions before the
House; but, in the present case, Government, having
laid their plan before them, nothing would have been
more legitimate than for the Noble L-trd to have entered
into an explanation of the grounds fur adopting this
policy, and as he refused to take that step, nothing could
be more legitimate than for the Hon. Member for Rad-
norshire to adopt the course he had taken. Under any
circumstances, that was the course which the Noble Lerd
ought to have pursued. But were there not peculiar
circumstances in the present case which were calculated
to excite the suspicion of Hon. Gentlemen—to stimulate
their criticism—and to take the earliest and every lawful
opportunity to canvass the policy of the Government?—
(Cheers.) Had they evidence before them that it was a
policy so matured, so well digested, founded upon such
special information, and supported by such previous
investigation, that they were to be in a haste and a
hurry to carry it into legislative form?—(hear, hear.)
The circumstances under which the resolution was
laid on the table of the House were 'very re-
ruaritable. What was the use of being in a hurry in
sanctioning this resolution ? In another place the
same resolution had also appeared, and in that other

• -
place, at the earnest invitation of the leading Minister,
of the Crown in that place, they had proceeded to ap-
point a Committee to receive evidence in support of the
resolution.—(Hear, hear.) What was the use, then, of
the House of Commons being in such a hurry to send up
their sanction of the resolution, when those in another
place would be found busy in examining whether there
were sufficient reasons for adopting it? He took it tor
granted, that in that other place they would pursue their
affairs in a business-like manner, ar.d in such a way as
would be satisfactory to the country—(Cheers)—that
they would, at' least, before adopting such a resolu-
tion as this, be sure that there was a good foundation
for it, and that they would also form some estimate as
to the fund that may accrue from its adoption.
They would also, he presumed, have some idea of the
manner in which that fund was to be expended; and
would take care, before they proposed to levy a rate in
aid from the north of Ireland, that there should be a
sound, substantial, and comprehensive valuation upon
which they were to levy it.—(Cheers.) These were all
circumstances which, no doubt, would be considered in
another place, and if so, then the House might depend
upon it some time would elapse before those in that other
place arrived at a conclusion. There was, therefore, no
reason why the House should be in such a state of pre-
cipitation to pass without comment, upon an occasion so
opportune, and so legitimate for discussio,i, a resolution
so unprecedented iu its character, and in its effect so
enormous. —(Cheers.) He took the opportunity of pro-
testing against the conclusion that because he was op-
posed to this proposition ho was therefore opposed to
any satisfactory plan fur rendering assistance to
Irelmad. Ile would repeat, it was the duty of Govern,-