The Sun.
London, England, 1807-01-24 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

After some converiation relative to the expediency
of delay, the Report was brought up by Mr. Hob-
house.

Sir JAWS PU.LTENEY would have been bet-
ter pleased if the debate had been put off to a more.
convenient time. The author of the new measures
for recruiting the army had; expe6ted no -great -im-
mediate benefit from them ; but dertainly .he must
have expthed some immediate 'benefit- or he would
not Have propOsed them. He had opposed that plan

-;'w:tise;.a:wr

on the ground that it afforded no prospect of an im-
mediate supply, but rather menaced a great diminu-
tion. He .was also very apprehensive that it woad
create a difficulty in kBeping Up the numbers of the
regular army. The Returns 'pan the table proved
there was no increase in this year. The Additiontl
Force Bill, which had been repealed, would have
mak a considerable increase to the army, and the
army must have been imptoved if that. .0. had co;;-
tinned. He asked if the preset]; time was nothia
Was not that to be of eEted at the present mom
which was acknowledged to be at all titne:,t desiratile ?
It was no great recommendation of the new ppl;u to
say,,it had not yet produced any bad effed.. He.lmd
supported the Training Bill last year, in the Atka
that it would be carried into execution. If it was
likely to produce good effects, it ought to be exe-
cuted; if it was not, it ought not to be stnfered to
remain a mere.dead letter, but ought to be repealed.
The enemy was npw at a distance, but it was ho.
possible to say, thaf he might not be soon, by.A
peace, or by other events, at liberty to return and
renew his menaces of assault upouns ; it was there.;
fore of the utmost impOrtance that we should not be
unprepared. With respell to the Volunteers, it was
said,
,the numbers of their establishment ,remained,
the same. • But they did not pay the same attention
to duty and discipline, and theretbre they had fallen,
off.

Sir JOHN DOYLE thoUght it would hare been
more satisfiiclory if the debate had been put off ; but
the argument forthe adjournment came' with an ill
grace from the Hon. Gentleman' who rirged it. -When
speeches of three hours Were'made if;;liinst- time, in
which every thing but time seemed to be remember-
ed ; it was rather' awkward for those who had beeri
guilty of such a Waste of time to ask for an extension
of it: 'The Hon. Baronet who had began this debate
had represented the'necessity of baving-an adequate
army, as the enemy may return upon us.
agreed in the justice of this policy; but he w:l4
rather surprised:that the Additional Force Mt wai
mentioned as'a proper measure fOr'carrying it into
effeet. That Mt had done every thing but what it
professed. - Its inefficacy was eicused'at first, on the
ground that'-it was not Under Stood. It had been' 18,
months nriproduaive, and •when at the end of thdt
time it waS deMOlished by the 'present Ministers, uie
were told it was-just going to be produ&ive. But i
was 'contended that it may be 'amended.. There wa
a story of oneof our Poets, -Who. was Very' mtkch.dei
formed, and who al ways 'used to say, ' God mend me,'
to whom a persOn said one `day, on his using NS
ejaculation, it would he'easie'r to fornrtwenty new
ones., than to mend such a MASS of deformity as he
presented." As to its going to be productive jiist
when it was repealed, that reminded him-of anothei-
story. A priest's maid, who was-very idle, had
a habit of always saying -when she was asked to-Ci
any thing, E I am going •to do but being asked
one day by her master if she had washed his bOoki
and papers ? She answered—' I am going to-do -it,
Sir,' which-shewed how little solidity there was
her promise-of maim; any more than there was
the activity of the Additional 'Force Mt. The as:
section of the efficiency of the Act, reminded hitn
of the story of the Duke of Wharton's 'puppies, wh6
never saw till they. were going to be drowned. This
Measure of- the Additional Force was intended to
act as an ally to the Regular Army : ' but unhappily
it acted like the French, and cut off the resources
of those it meant to RroteEt.. He complained here
that the recruiting at bead-quarters was not inl•
chided-in the present •account :it had been included
last year upon a representation less fair : the'.very
means had been designed to produce a good income
-Without racking the • tenant. The measures now
under discussion had, however, done more;: for they
had given a good. supply in hand—for lie was sure
-they would in a short time till up all the deficienciels
between the estimates and the effectives. The
Right Hon. Secretary had not acted so well-towards;
his measures as his measures had done towards him'.
The measures
.‘Vere riot 'carried into execution so
early Is they might have been.- He allowed there
might have been some impediments 'to the execu-
tion : he would not advert to that diverging calca-
lation of the Noble Lord, which 'represented the
measure as likely ,A 6 overwhelm the *country with
the enormous burthens- which it would:create in its
progress. The' reasoning' of the Noble' Lord against
it wanted• nothing bta data. If the Noble Lord
would-visit the truckle...bed of the 'sick at Chelsea or
Kilmainham; of men` who had spent the prime of
their lives in the service of their country, he would,
perhapS, have imbibed other feelings than those
which induced him- to support such measures as
were calculated to dismiss the soldier, after having
passed his life in the service of hiS coui.try, as to
bring his grey hairs with sorrow to the grave. He
ought to Make,an apology to the Hon. Gentlemen
above him- for speaking these sentiments at their
side of the House (the Opposition). He might
be suspended of coming among them as a spy, to
observe the nakedness of theland. His be=
ing on 'this side of the 'House Was Merely 'acel,
dental. There was' reason to , think that the Ho.'
pourable Gentlemen were. here, •,becauSe'' they
could not, get good places on the other 'side.—
He was sorry to observe so great a ,want of that
unanimity which Was now more than ever to .be
wished tbr. He allowed that opposition was or .
advantage, as a check' upon the existing Govern 7
ment, and in proportion as the -talents of the.oppo
sition were great, so much more effeLital must that:
check be. The talents of the present opposition
being beyond any thing beforeknown, it was, there
fore desirable, with a view to the permanency, of so
complete a check, that the Hon. Gentlemen now in
opposition should remain so as -long as pos;\ble:
He would recommend to the opposition Gentlemen;,
a principle contained in the NegOtiation Papers-on
the table. Let them say to the Hon. Gentlethan
opposite, in the language of M. Talleyrand, Nous
71,e twus denuozdoits nen ; we. ask' nothing from you -
(A loud laugh.)--He did not mean to f6llow the.
Noble Lerd through the whole of his speech. He
would not follow him, through his animadversiont
upon the Training Bill, Which did not belong to this
subject.' There was one other sub j(4l. which the
Noble 'Lord had touched, and 'which solittle
longed to the present subjea,that'a might haveteen
Omitted. ThiS was the condu& of the Negotiator.
There was no part of the conduit or measures of
his Majesty's 'Ministers that gained them so much
credit. The pr6position originated Vith Fr:II,CC
file Negotiation commenced under auspices the
most propitious. At the bead of the Foreign De-
.

P'

kb justly deplorea man who, amid the endow-
ments of a mighty mind, was peculiarly gifted with
those qualities which fitted him for egotiation
in difficult times. To a, vast, comprehensive, and
Cultivated understanding, he joined the most inti-
mate knowledge, of the various interests of Europe,
a suavity of manners, and a spirit of conciliation
which engaged Foreign Ministers to..trust, while
his probity and known honour insured the confi-
dence of their Masters. Devoid of guile, he had
nothing equivocal in his condu&—nothing ambi-
guouS in his language. He moved strait onward
to his objeet without turning into the paths of
crooked policy or left-handed. wisdom. There was
nothing' counterfeit in' himhis affability 'flowed
from the heart—his natural greatness required not
the aid of assumed arrogance to give him conse-
quence—.he was too great to be haughty, too wise
to be cunning.—He was one of the few Statesmen
who knew the value of that adage which, though
homely, is true in politics as in morals, that " hones-
ty is the best policy." ' Far be it from me to at-
tempt his praise—it would require powers gigantic
as his own to do him justice.—Were he living I
should he silent.—l never received favours at his
hand—l leave it-to those who have :to treat his
memory lightly.—l speak of him as a man' -who
loves his Country must do, whilst deplOring the
loss - of its-greatest ornament.' Here; the Right
Hon. Gentleman stated, in proof of the efficacy of
the new measures .mentioned,. the fad of one BatS.
talion of Reserve producing offera,of 329 men for
general service in six month;, , which was more
by 257 than the offer madein six months be-
fore. It was. not fair to ask what bounty was
given. That was a question of finance. But the
men got by this-measure were all forth-ceming
whereasahose got by the additional one were not.—
The Right Honourable . Gentleman had made qua.,
lity as well as quantity one of the beneficial charac-
teristics of his Measure. The advantage Of quality
was obtained. Of the men raised under the Additional
Force Ad,' one half went. away, -not as. deserters,
for they had never entered into the service, which
it was necessary to know and to dislike .in order to
be a deserter. He should describe the offenders as
robbers, with whom those whia threw such tempta-
tions in their way must be considered as being in
league._ Every one of the Recruits under the Addi-
tional. Force Bill Dada wife and six children. They
reminded him of the- wandering Arabs he had once
Seem It was said nine tailors were necessary to
constitute a man ; but it:would take annteen of
these to. make a man. Next ...te ,theEstini,inaux,
they were the sharpest beings he had ever seem—,
We shouldoppose to the enemy. ahe same descrips
Lion of trcops he should bring against, up, It was
certain the enemy would ,invfde withbi4 regular
army, and therefore we should h,iVe a reguhir:army
to oppose 'him. He conspliin en led .the spirit of the
Volunteers in coming.t.Orward for the :defence
.01 the
country ; but be condemned the system claraining
enforced with respe& to them. fie instanced a stos
ry of a 'regiment the. American in 1776,
to which henirriself was Adjutant. This :reziment
had received 176 new recruits,, who he, as Adju-
'taut to the regiment, began to train in the slow for-
mal way. But-his Colonel, an experienced officer,
recommended to him rather to teach the men toload
and fire He bad so inStruded them ,•,and they
proved ViEtorious. If the enemy had invaded as,ear-
ly as he threatened, we would have been exposed to
much mischief by being taken sty prematurely.,—
We witeted light troops to act l>eliitid hedges, and
to take advantage of their knowledge of their coun-
try. In case of a landing, he advised the Volunteers
to barn their books and haste to their native vales,
in obedience to command. He ought, as a Milita-
ry man, to
.apolo:6ize ter speaking at such length on
a:military subject It seemed military. men were
particularly unfit to speak on military snbjeets, and
)'et one never sent his. watch to a sho;Nuaker to be
repaired ; tibr though
.Herace said every wise man
was a good .shoemaker, it did not folloW that, every
shoemakrr possessed the 'satue convertible skin.—
The eyes oflUr es epe •ere 'fixed on the House as up-
on the last -prop of the expiring liberties of mankind.
The last hope of the preSsa-yation ~of the remaining
rights, and the last prosp)eaof future deliverance,
rested upon the measures that shoal be adopted, in
this co::l,try.
.1-15 thersJiire conjured tile. Housenot
not to sacrifice inoments s.o precious toveity jealou-
sies of party in terests--noi , to; h their attention on
getting in' th,:ioselves, and key l,itfg 'others. out, :but
to c in devising the best means of keeping
Out the enemy, The enemy, hated. us because we

were a.10).,i, free, .contented, and,'happy nation
and b!Giu,.,. %vero determitted to be so. H s ha-

treu

t,.t.:r-ture

were 'under those

circutaa !ancc c<ilk d . upon to conic! forward to pro-

tent out- ices ,from r.:vishers, our chilUreri from
murdervri, our propertis spoilers. Flu there-
fore again recommended, -tananir.aity,in this i.aduous
The .81-itit;li people, if titaanimouslyi deter-
:4;ll their lives kt deleoce of British Liber-
ty, ht.:

Colonel WILDAIR acquiesced in almost every.
opiuio►► held by the Houourable Generzil who.s.poke
last, under whom he had the honour to serve ; and
with I►ini he concurred in approbatiou of the

ry Systetu adopted by the Right Honourable Secre-
tary Windham), by the operation of which,
his owu obseniation !waved to him a number of ex-

icellent Men had already bean raised.
Lord EL4NEYentcred into some observations up -
on what had fallen, in the last day's debate, flout a
Noble Lord (Castlereagh), respecting the discharg-
ing of men from old- regiments. - He should take-the
liberty to hint and advise, that when men
.wereso iuiist-
od, care should be taken to mark down theiregiruent
from which they were drawn. SuCh a practice
would tend to, prevent the frauds which some Ge-
&men seemed to apprel4md.
Colonel ,11ATTLIE,IF felt reluaant to acknow-
ledge that men, unfit in any respe&, had been ais_

charged.froni old regitneuts, and had beep inlisted

11110 uew.

Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE would not allow
that any application could be made to him of the
phrase quoted by the Honourable General (Doyle),
voiis -rbus demandons rien. He never had asked, or
nerei: intended to ask, any favourirOm atiy. Adtui,
miqralion : he aspired only to deliver the opinion
which his judgment might diaate, and :he had,dOne
more when he approved of the arguments urged
on a former occasion by a Noble Lord. (Castle-
reagh), all of which arguments he Ithew to be

Jou-ndgcl in fad, and to be contained in the Papers

taiappon tilt! [Mlle
ry ministers. He attended alq.,
to what was urged in reply to them ; and here he
discovered nothing but conjeaure.
Mr. ROSE could not listen.with patience to, the
praises lavished by sonic Gentlemen upon the ener-
gies displayed in the measures of the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Windham) and his Colleagues.
Where were those energies. to be found ? Was it in
;the measures adopted- to secure the conquest of
Buenos Ayres ? There was -no difficulty in finding
Transports for that purpose;'• yet nearly six months
elapsed from the time they knew the Expedition
was undertaken, and the time when they sent out
any succours to . maintain the conquest. As ill-
founded were their claims to the praise of economy
in the public expenditure. This would appear oven
from the Estimates before the House; which, after
a very minute and detailed examination, -the Right
Honourable Gentleman sheaved had exceeded those
of the year 1805, :by the sum of more than
475,0001.
Mr. H. THORNTON had much to applaud, and
yet not a little to censure in the military-mei3ures of
Ministers; but he feared they had done little or
nothing to guard against the immediate danger of
the country; that danger was raorelniminent -and
formidable than they'seemed tcAmagine ; yet they
had diminished the Militia—they had diminished
the Volunteers—and they had neglefted the Training
Bill; all of which means were- those to -be relied
upon for the defenceof,the country.
• Mr.
„JACOB went into a variety of cletaih of all
the circurnstances• which attended the- conqueSt of
Buenos Ayres---qnere particularly of -the powers
with which Sir Home Popham might, be. suppOsed
to: be entrusted. On the conduct of Gene al
Beresford he bestowed every praise—for no praise
could exceed the merits of his condu6 on' that 'oc-
casion: but in what ensued there might be some-
thing to .regret. If the conquest .ii-ak-of the value
attributed to it—why -send out so. small if reinforces

rnent 'to secure it, When itwas kn(Avn ' with what

danger and risk the acquisitiow had' been made with
so,small a force ? He was not; however, prepared to
say that any . mater ial time had been: lost in sending
out- that reinforcement. This cbnquest was dear in
his'eyes--7not ohly on account of its intrinsic value,
but also from the contemplation eof the gallant and,
generous condu& displayed towards the inhabitants
by the General who took it, floW, different from ‘i

that „of the French
.Gencial who took "Lubeck—
betweep, which and the condud of ,General
toid the; Honourable Gentlernah cohld, not refrain
froindras.v ing.a,tpost. tnarked and striking contrast.
Lord 11F.N,qi PETTY went over a variety of state,.
mews to prove, that our force had.increa..,ed, while
economy
.had been attended to.

Sir JO4IN NEwroRT said, that in pursuance of
the .economical pans otYAlinisters, thirty-eight of-
fices in the Irish Customs f-
had been abolished, and
. •
PL.ht 1/114 declared, that the abolition of
ailuded to by-'the. Right flop. Baronet,
bad b,::en suggested by Commissioners appointed
during the late Administration.—He then pfneeed7
ed:to make sonic ObSerViltioAS on the,total
quapy of the military measures lately adopted, and
asked was the Army at kesent in the state, in which
the Country was: satisfied with it, or in the state in

wlaicli the ieight lion. Gentletni.ta tvon)d have ken

. .
satisfied with Tt,,had he remained in opposition ?
Sir 30}I\ DOYLE explained, and Mr., WINDUAII
repeated many of the observations he made in the
last &bate. . •

Cc)lOnrl
WILDAIR, Mr. Rosr., Mt. BATHURST,
tordeASTLEREAGII, and Lord ilowicß, also «litter-
ed into briefexplanatiotts after which the iteSchk.
tions Were put and agreed to.
The SECRETARY at WAR Llbtained leave to bring
in a Bill to punish Mutiny and Desertion,.
On the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT' various
accounts of the number of. men obtained by the
ordinary recruiting, .frOm 'lBOO to the present year,
,were ordered.

Sir JOHN NEVVFORT gave notice, that in the
Committee of Wiiys and Means, on Monday next,
he move for a million of Exchequer Bills fqr
the service of Ireland.

Adjournea at HALF PAST THR2 O'CLOcK ‘lliS,
morning. .