The Sun.
London, England, 1849-02-07 00:00:00

any kind could be held without first going cap
in hand to the Lord-Lieutenant to ask him
whether he thought it was advisable that such
a meeting should take place. One thing they
must remember, that what they were doing with regard
to Ireland was equally applicable to England, and that if
they confided such a power to any man,
they might, by the agency of a wicked
Minister, be equally subject in their own country
to evils similar to those which they were inflicting upon
Ireland. Was it because a graceless and disreputable
fellow like Garcy M‘Ghee'chose to write seditious letters
in America, that the whole country was to be oppressed?
Who was Mr. Darcy M'Ghee? and what were his ob-
jects in publishing that letter on which the Right Hon.
Baronet so much relied as his case for the renewal of the

suspension of the constitution in Ireland. Ho was a
mere " refugee rebel," whose object was to represent
himself as a " hero" and a " martyr" in the cause of
Irish liberty, and ;so render himself popular with the
" American sympathisers," his real object being to sell
his paper. And it was upon the testimony of such a
man as that that the Government called on the British
Parliament to suspend the constitution in Ireland. Ho
might add, that Mr. Darcy M‘Ghee was believed by
many to be an auxiliary in carrying out the plus of the
Government; and he thought that on the testimony of
such a man the Parliament ought not to be led to give
its assent to the proposed measure—a measure the actual
necessity for which the Right Hon. Baronet had failed
to make out, and which he confessed there was no new
conspiracy, no new acts of an insurrectionary
character, to warrant him in applying for.—([lean)
He now came to the letter of the Lord Lieutenant, and
he must say that there were a great many statements in
it which were not quite true. One statement was that
the Lord-Lieutenant had not brought the law into opera-
tion against personal liberty, unless where it became ab-
solutely necessary for the protection of the country.
Now he knew a case in which this statement was not
true, for a gentleman who was opposed to the Young
Ireland party was taken up and put into prison without
any proof that he ought to be made subject to this op-
pressive law. The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to com-
ment upon other portions of the letter, and contended in
reference to a passage in it that the Goverument was not
entitled to the love of the people of Ireland, because they
had not upheld their promises to give an improved fran-
chise to the people of that country, or to give them the
English principle identified with municipal institutions.
If they went into Committee, he would show that
the Government of .this country had no claims on
the affections of Irishmen. He denied also that the few
men and boys who met in the wilderness near Clonmel
could be fairly designated as a "renewed attempt at
insurrection." It was also said that the arms were net
given up. Well, this might be a good reason for a more
stringent Arms Bill, but it was no reason why they
should destroy the constitutional privileges of the peo-
ple of Ireland. The principle of agitating for a repeal
of the union was declared by the Judges of the land
to be a legitimate agitation, and yet the object of this
law was to crush agitation, which had in all periods of
this country been the safeguard of the constitution.
Englishmen were consenting to this law for Ireland,
which they would not consent to for one moment if it
was proposed for this country. But Ireland was
struck down; her people were prostrate. Those that
could leave the country were doing so, and those who
remained were the sick and the helpless, and the conse-
quence was that the Government of this country acted
as they pleased in respect to Ireland. But this would
not be borne, and those who were in the habit of evok-
ing the opinions of the people ce Ireland, would try in
their own persons, whether this law was to be brought
into operation against the legitimate agitation of a ques-
tion—the agitation respecting which was declared by
the highest authorities in the land to be legal. The
Home Secretary had not, he said, brought this
law forward in consequence of the personal cha-
racter of Lord Clarendon, and yet throughout his
speech he constantly referred to the personal conduct of
Lord Clarendon during the recent disturbances in Ire-
land. He admitted that in many instances the Noble
Lord had acted wisely and well, but in many other in-
stances he had acted in:another very different manner.
The object of the Government in Ireland was to allow
the disaffection to get such a head, that they would
find it easy to put down every description of agitation
in that country. When the trials came on Call-Julies
were excluded from the juries. In the Catholic
county of Tipperary there were but eighteen Catholics
against 300 Protestants on the panel for that county at
the special commission at Clonmel. The Government
committed a serious crime in tampering with the jury
lists. He would now refer to the circumstances under
which the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended i❑
former times. It Ras suspended in 1805, when they
were at war a ith Napoleon. At that time disaffection
in Ireland was not cer,fined to writing artloles in news
papers, but employed armed men as emissaries in France
formed into a kind of regiment. What he asked for
was a Committee of Inquiry. Ile thought he was eta
titled to demand it fain the prcst nt Government, for lie
had as a precedent a resolution proposed by Mr. Fox,
who might Ito considered the apostle of Whig princi-
ples. At the same time he knew it aas of no avail to
appeal to the Government. He was satisfied the Minis-
ter would not come to propose this measure to the
House unless he was prepared to go all lengths in sup•
port of his officer in Ireland ; but ho appealed to those
independent Members whom they had so often supported
in their efforts to obtain Pailiamentary reform and
other measures of amelioration, if they allowed this en
creachment upon the Constitution it would be vain for
them to expect a reduction of expenditure or a refs rm
in the financial system. They would not be able to
withdraw a soldier from Ireland, and would find the)
w.old hereafter have to pad• bitterly for this neglect of
the defence of the Constitution. 'The Hon. Member
concluded by moving the following amendment:—" That
a Committee, consisting of twenty-one Members, be
formed by ballot, to examice such documents as may be
laid before them; and to report to this Home th, it
opinion upon these documents, whether the continuance
of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act be a mea-
sure necessary to the trequillity of Ireland at the pre-
sent time."
Mr. NIEAG HER, aster a short pause, seconded the
atnendatent.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR did not feel much surprised that
the Rght Hon. Gentleman tt.e Secretary of State for
the Home Department should have made such a pro-
posal to the House as that which was now under cousi
deration when he saw the difficulty which the mover of
the amendment had had in getting a seconder. The Right
Hon. Gentleman seemed to him to be very much in the
position of a weak and inadequate lawyer, who once said
that he preferred a subservient jury to the best cause he
could have in his hands. The Right Hon. Baronet had
relied upon a subservient House of Commons to help
him to destroy the remains of Irish liberty. The
reasons which had been urged for the measure wore
altogether unsatisfactory. It was said to be to
enable the Lord-Lieutenant to carry out his policy;
but it was not said what that policy was. The
Right Hononrable Gentleman had also attempted to
justify it by quoting a letter which had appeared
in a New York paper from a man who had been
frightened by tyranny cut of his own country; and here
he begged to say that it ill became the lion. Member
for Limerick (Mr. J. O'Connell) to attempt to cast a slur
upon a man who had been driven from his country for
resisting the tyranny of which ho himself complained.—
(Hear.) There never had been such a vague, lame, im-
potent appeal made to any Assembly as that of the
Right Hon. Gentleman to continue the suspension of
the Habeas Corpus in Ireland, and in making it he relied
entirely on the subserviency of the House, and not on the
merits of his case. Let not the House he led away by
comparisons between the speeches of different agitators,
but let them contrast the policy of the different viceroys
in Ireland. Lord Anglesey taught the people well. He
told them to " Agitate, agitate, agitate 1" Lord Claren-
don used very different language; he said, " Rely entirely
on me. lam the constitution ;--
" 'I am Sir Oracle;
" 'And when I ope my mouth let no dog bark.' "

If this measure passed no grievance would be redressed
no beneficial measure would be introduced; but Lord,
Clarendon would become the great gaoler of Ireland,
armed with authority to seize upon every one who ven-
tured to oppose the Government now in office or agitate
upon any useful question. But ho would tell the Go-
vernment that they could not put agitation down by such
means as these. The present measure was not so much
to destroy agitation in Ireland as in England. When-
ever fear was to be struck into the hearts of the people
of the latter country, or whenever satisfaction and secu-
rity were to be afforded to the landed gentry on this
side of the Channel, the blow was made at the hearts of
the people of Ireland. But such steps now were vain.
It was impossible for the people to remain content
with the existing state of things, when every foreign
country had obtained a new Constitution, or for the
Noble Lord to hold on any longer in his present maud-
lin way. Ile agreed with the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman (Sir William Somerville) that it was not to that
House, but to the landlords of Ireland, that the people
werep ttoonlso ott a
tf o rpt
her oGt eoevt
ei or nn.m
eTn
th eprreo
pwo
seerde ,
tho o
makewever , nh oe
landlords do their duty, and to force them to increase
the national resources by reproductive labour, for the
landlords were always ready, as the Government well
knew. to sustain them in any measure against the liber-
ties of Ireland. When, on a former occasion, the Go-
vernment had proposed to restrain the expression of
public opinion, he prophecied that secret societies would
spring up, and that assassination and illegal bodies
would prevail over the country, and the result showed
he was right. Were the Government prepared to put
down all agitation whatever? Had the Noble Lord for-
gotten how the ReforTmomßilyl
owuansacoarfritehde?
HoHmaed-ohffiecfaotro-
?—n Hh
night
a andr.) day
'upon him to head the Brunt-
gGoatnteenralthNeapleiettre,rcoaftling
pdaiffsesrtehde Basdlmbnychforcaea
Li
tinhaegeNraombleenLaonrdd
(Mr. O'Connor) bad
when he sat on differebnetensidteasunotefd thebeforeouis.ae.
thate
The loyalty
Hofousae formiaihatiesr lowyhaloty.—we(nAt leavuegr
yh . )
quarter-day to
like the Treasury differed widely from the loyalty..m ofself;
an alien in blood, religion, and language, himself;
but he could tell the Noble Lord he never had
unless
been a
Republican, and never would be a
his mind became greatly altered.—(Laughter.) He
would tell the House, it was his firm conviction they
never could tranquillize Ireland till they had destroyed
the dominant ionf conquest
tchurch—thelProteatant Church, which was
a
and of oppression to the natives of
that country. How had they treated the people during
the late disturbance? They had retained Irishmen in
prison, but the instant the American Ambassador in-
terfered on behalf of some subjects of the United States
who had been arrested, they were set at liberty. Was
that a proof of their strength? They talked of Poland,
and compared her to Ireland; but, when had they ever
heard of 1,000,000 of Poles dying of famine in the course
of a year?—(Hear, hear.) And this was the country—
said by the Noble Lord, and by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, to be is a state of calm —on which

they were to press thus heavily, in suspend-
ing the Constitution. " Oh, but," said the Go-
vernment, " though there is that calm, the Lord-Lieu-
tenant sees revolution in the distance, and you must arm
him with powers to suppress it." He could not tell how
it was that the most industrious and hard-working
people on the face of the earth were in such a state.
He saw Hon. Gentlemen jeering and muttering at him,
but he did not care one farthing for that. A party in
the House had succeeded in carrying free trade; but free
trade was a great grievance, and the cause of great dis-

tress to Ireland.
Sir J. GRAHAM—No, no.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR—The Right Hon. Baronet said
"No, no."
Sir J. GRAHAM—I differ in opinion with you.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR—Yes, the Right Hon. Baronet
was the sentinel left there now by his commander-in-
chief; but he maintained free trade was at present in-
jurious to Ireland, though he would not deny it might
be ultimately beneficial. To-morrow the House would
be called upon for a grant to Ireland ; but the
country wanted no grant if she got but justice. Every
difficulty of which she had to complain he saddled upon
the landlords, who were fed on patronage, and had
left their estates to lie in idleness. For these difficulties
he had proposed remedies, but none of them had been
much attended to. In 1834 he proposed a poor-law—
land premiums, labour premiums, and landlord premiums,
but none of them had been approved of. He now
warned the House that they must compel the Irish land•
lords to give leases in perpetuity. If they did so there
would be no more emigration and no more complaints,
such as they had heard last night, of emigrants carrying
away 10,000,000/. sterling out of the country instead of
spending it at home. To show what perpetuity would
do, he would tell them what had happened on an estate
of Sir Nicholas Colthurst, in Kerry, over which Mr.
Colthurst was agent. In 1808 he could not get more
than 600/. per annum for it. In succeeding years he had
let it on chance for 800/., but found it would not pay.
He then said, "If you divide it, I will get you 1,0001. a
year for it." He got 1,315/. ; and in another instance where
Sir Nicholas had given leases in perpetuity the poor-rates
amounted to 2id. in the pound, while the rates on pro-
perties occupied under a different tenure amounted to 6d. in
the pound. It was hopeless for Ireland to look to the
present Government, which was powerful when here but
powerless when there. His only expectation was, that
he should see them in the position for which nature de-
signed them ; namely, on the Opposition side of the
House.—(A langh.) Then would men be found to stand
up for economy, and to drive a Minister from office if he
proposed an Arms Bill for Ireland ; then would the
Noble Lord call on the Government to do its duty to the
commercial and agricultural interests of Ireland and
declare himself prepared to resist a Coercion Bill. In
passing he would remark, that the Noble Lord who pro-
posed the Address spoke of the Chartist movement as
having been put down in England. It had not been put
down yet. With respect to the present Bill, he wished
to God he had power to arrest its progress by means of
the rules of the House. Was Ireland to be ruled by
Government anticipations ? The maxims might be ap-
plied to Ministers, that those who must take care of
themselves had no time to take care of others.. As he
had opposed the last Coercion Bill he should oppose this;
and with respect to the State trials and the attempt to
put down agitation, he ventured to say the time might
come when that which they now called criminality they
would be obliged to extol as patriotism.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE perceived that the motto of the
Treasury bench was Sic volo, sic jubco. All that Mi-
nisters wanted was the blind and unreasoning support of
a majority, and he feared they did not reckon without
their host. The only ground on which the Right Hon.
Baronet the Home Secretary had rested the argument
in favour of the Bill was a letter from a gentleman
named M‘Ghee, which was written to show why and
how his party had failed to revolutionise Ireland. Mr.
M•Ghee said the people were flocking to their standard,
but a certain party interfered, and from day to day the
people fell off. Who constituted that party? The Ro-
man Catholic clergy. What remedial measures did the
Government propose for Ireland ? An alteration of
the poor-law ; an extension of the franchise. Those
measures came too late. Ministers said nothing
on the subject of the tenure. It required a long and
severe apprenticeship before one could know Ireland.
When an Irishman stood up in Parliament it was said
he did so to complain, and not to propose remedies. Re-
presenting, perhaps, the largest constituency in Ire-
land, he (Mr. Roche) did not shrink from that respon-
sibility. Let them, as men of business, view the
Irish question as their own. He would begin at
the head—with their mock court—their Lord-Lieu-
tenancy. Of what advantage was that to Ireland?—
(Hear, hear.) No man, sent over trammelled as Lord
Clarendon was, could act as a statesman. Then there
was the Church of Ireland. There was a source of Irieh
revenue to which, if they were practicable and just men,
they might apply. Then there was the grand jury land-
tax, amounong to a million and a quarter of money,
which was without control expended by those who might
be called the English garrison. Then there were 50,000
troops stationed in Ireland; there was maladministration
in almost every public office, there was ample room for
retrenchment; and it was indeed hard that under such
circumstances a fund could not be obtained for develop.
ing the resources of the country. If coercion could pro-
duce beneficial results Ireland ought to be one of the
most prosperous countries in the world. It appeared
probable that Ireland would continue to be governed in
the same manner until men should arise who had the
hearts of Christians and the heads of statesmen.
Mr. FAGAN regretted that Ministers had not evinced
a more earnest disposition to redeem the professions
which they made with regard to Ireland when they sat
on the Opposition benches. Some excuse for their short-
comings might, however, be found in the circumstances
to which they had been placed since they entered office,
and he could never forget the services which some of the
leading men of that party had rendered to his country.
Heretofore, when any Government had asked for a mea-
sure such as that Pow demanded, a case of necessity or
a semblance of one had always been made out; but on
the present occasion not a single argument had been ad-
duced in support of the proposition. It certainly was
the weakest case ever put forward to justify the suspen-
sion of the liberties of a people. For his part, he denied
that there existed any general dispesi.ion to insurrec-
tion in Ireland. Would Ministers dare to attempt
to put down the agitators of Manchester in the
same manner?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member then
touched upon the manner in which the recent State pro-
secutions in Ireland had been conducted, and expressed
his disapprobation cf it. In conclusion, he declared that,
although he admired the talents and good, disposition of
Lord Clarendon, he could not consent to place Ireland at
his mercy.
Mr. GRATTAN said that the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act was a hazardous experiment; it had often
been tried, and as often failed. There was nothing in
the character of the people of Ireland to disqualify them
for the enjoyment of liberty,—
"The feult, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

In former ca-es how did the people of England act?
Did they ever suspend the liberties of their country upon
such a short notice, or without proof ? Did not Mr.
Pitt and Lord Castlereagh come down to the House with
large bags filled with let'ers and sworn informations be•
fore the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended ? All
that was wanting here. He contended that
this measure was unnecessary. He maintained
that Dlreland did not deserve this measure.
The House was in laughter on the previous evening
when they spoke of insurrection in Ireland. There
had been none. It existed only in the minds of inte-
rested individuals, who could get up an insurrection at
any time. If they would pay him for it, he would get
up one in forty-eight hours.—(Laughter.) He remem-
bered hearing when he was a boy the cry of permanent
pay—that was the cry of the Orangemen—and it meant
that there was to be a Catholic rebellion got up, so that
the corps would be increased and there should be per-
manent pay. He suspected something of the same kind
at this time. Let them not manufacture spies. Let
Ireland be governed by greater talent, and not by a
second-class set of Ministers dressed up from some old
clothes shop.—(Laughter.) The Lord-Lieutenant said
that the people of Ireland showed nothing of a repentant
spirit. They had done nothing to repent of ; for could
it be said that the people of Ireland, the gentry, the
Roman Catholic clergy, had joined in the insurrection,
as it was called? Why, there was no such insurrection,
no overt act was proved. O'Brien distinctly denied all
participation with the party who were for violent
proceedings. He had heard O'Brien charged in
that House with having gone to France to
solicit French aid, but M. Lamartiae bad indig-
nantly denied it. Did the Lord-Lieutenant mean to
say that agitation was to cease, that there was to be no
discussion of measures which they considered wrong and
wished by legal and constitutional means to repeal ?
All history proved that that should not be done, and he
believed that if it were the disease would be aggravated.
They might put down repeal, but they would set up se-
paration. What charm was there to Ireland in the con.
nexion with this country ? Why should he as an Irish-
man like the English better than the French ? The
French were as well mannered—as agreeable.—(An
Hon Member—" And as good looking.") He did not
think so.—(A laugh.) He liked the honest face of an
Englishman better than those mustachioed fellows, beg-
ging the Hon. Gentleman's pardon.—(The Hon. Mem-
ber as he said this slightly bowed to Mr. Muntz, who
was sitting near him, and a hearty laugh rang through
the House.) It happened that on that day there
was to be tried in Ireland an individual who had been
in gaol seven months. The Attorney-General of
Ireland was an able man, he knew, but with his unbap-
tized spaniels he was unable to obtain convictions.
How was it that he could not instruct them to succeed?
He was obliged to get packed juries to convict. Oh!
if the Attorney-General were there he could make the
blood fly from his heart, and the light from his count°.
nance.—(Laughter.) Of 177 jurors impanelled to try
one of the political prisoners (Mr. Duffy, as we under-
stood), 135 were Protestants and only 42 Catholics, four
of whom were tradesmen in the employ of the Lord-
Lieutenant and public contractors. How could Irish-
men be in love with law so administered? He entreated
English Members to stay away from the division 'to-
night, and save at the same time the liberties of Ireland
and their own reputation. lle declared that he would
rather that martial law should be proclaimed in Ireland
than that Parliament should go on in this way, suspend-
ing the constitutional privileges of his countrymen. He
felt that be could move those who now heard him to
tears if he were to relate what he had seen in the
course of a recent tour which he had made through
a portion of Ireland,—if he were to describe the
ruinous devastation, the houses destroyed, the landlords
ruined, and the tenants flying—(Hear)—and now
theyand degradation
were
of
fo
his
sd
unhappy.climaxc,
~tuonttrhye. sufferingsrirnen
knew how to dio as w‘il as Engilt•lieter.; ro.,siih aim
knew how to the on the field of glory, but let not Irish-
men die in a ditch with dishonour.—(Cheers.)
Mr. C. ANSTEX could not =cur either in the me.