The Sun.
London, England, 1836-04-14 00:00:00

Gallant Officer ; but he ( Sir H. Hardinge) would say that
since the ()giant Officer had been abroad, he did not think
l'htit• Id tiny arrity which ever left the shores of England cor-
ptti4l hitct haed ditttlfal to the same extent as in
the British Leptithl..--:-1 Kaf, tee.)
Majoa BE A IJCLgIII4 rdit' tf; Act': 'The Hon. and
Gallant Member has spoken of tt liiethlt:i‘ ti this House who
is absent. I appeal to the House whethef if js fair ?—(
Sir H. HARDINGE said that if the Ilort. tirid C:atilant
Member had permitted him to finish the F.entenee he
have perceived that he (Sir H. Hardinge) entirely agreed with
the Gallant Officer, the Member for Westminster. He would
repeat that corporal punishment had been carried in the corps
which the Hon. and Gallant Officer commanded to an extent
never known in the Hritish army; but he would also add, that
the peculiar circumstances of the corps in all probability justi-
fied the course which had been 6dopted: In this force it had
been found necessary to have recotitS;e' in the proYoft without
the interference of a Court-Martial. If, ;then the troops were
drawn out, any men were found dirty, they were at once taken
out of the ranks and flogged by the provost. St;ch a power
as this was never exercised by the Duke of Wellingtol7 but
the House ought to make allowance for the position of Ole
Hon. and Gallant Officer, and consider the many circumstances
which could he adduced to justify the course which he had
pursued. He (Sir H. Hardinge) would, however, honestly
say that in his experience he had never before known of such
severe and numerous floggings. Many observations had been
made on the evidence of another officer, Sir Oetavius Carey,
who commanded the 57th Regiment. He (Sir H. Har-
dinge) would confess that he had never been more asto-
nished than when he read the evidence of that Gallant
Officer. He would also confess that to his comprehension
it was perfectly unintelligible—( Hear, hear)—and that he
could not at all make out that Gallant Officer's system of dis-
cipline. He thought, however, that he had some knowledge
of the discipline of that regiment. Thirty years ago he (Sir
H. Hardinge).was a Captain in the 57th regiment, and a few
years afterwards, from the circumstance of his having gone
abroad on the staff, but being still a Captain in that regiment,
he, of course, had opportunities of knowing the materials of
which the regiment was composed. The regiment was re-
cruited in the neighbourhood of London, and at a time when
it was impossible to make a selection of men. It then being
war time Government was glad to get soldiers, and he would
fairly state that the men of this regiment, though they were
physically well adapted to make good soldiers, were, in
point of character, not what any officer would wish to com-
mand. He (Sir H. Hardinge) saw this regiment going into
action at the battle of Albuera, and never hid lie see men,
under circumstances of such peril and danger, conduct them-
selves with more bravery or heroism. The regiment was
then so irregular and so addicted to plunder that it certainly
was very much operated upon by the provost martial. The
regiment went into action, and he would state what the result
of the action was. The regiment had 25 officers. Of these
23 were either killed or wounded; and of its complement of
about 520 men 387 were killed or wounded. Lord Beres-
ford, in his despatch giving a detail of the action, said that
it was observed that all the men, particularly the 57th regi.
ment, fell in their ranks as they fought, and that every wound
was in front. This was not a regiment of high moral charac-
ter; bud hewould say that if in the course of the campaign it
had been neces.:.
=try to undertake any difficult and serious en-
terprise, mete wa no regiment in vihich he would have felt
greater confidence thati 57th regiment. Sir O. Carey
commanded the regiment In 1824, and stated in his evi-
dence that it was reported to the Acljutan.-
.Jeneral to be in a
most excellent condition. It was shortly after..-,ards sent out
to New South Wales, and when it arrived there the en often
self-mutilated themselves, or committed thefts, In order 12 be
discharged. He should, therefore, infer from these circum-
stances, that the system of Sir 0. Carey had failed most
egregiously in the 57th regiment. Now, with regard to the
English army in Spain. Ia 1810 the Duke of Wellinzton
found the army in a very disorganized state ; several of the
battalions were so ill-disciplined that the Duke of Wellington
was obliged to make a report to the Adjutant-General upon
the subject. (The Honourable and Gallant Member read
extracts from his Grace's report, showing the disorganised
state of the army at the period in question.) What mea-
sures did the Duke of Wellington take to reduce the army
to a proper state of discipline? He had recourse to the pro-
vost martial—he punished severely, and in a few instances
death was inflicted. But what was the result of this
system? The Duke of Wellington brought the army to that
state of discipline which he described in his evidence before
the Commissioners. His Grace said, " I always thought I
could have gone anywhere, and done anything, with that army.
It was impossible to have a machine better mounted and in
better order, and in a better state of discipline than that army
was."--(Hear, hear.) General Fane, who commanded two
columns of cavalry, having in charge the materiel of the army,
said that the conduct of the troops gave such satisfaction, that
even the French Government expressed its approbation of
their conduct. The Hon. and Gallant Member then referred
to the evidence of Lord Loughborough, who said that several
privates in his regiment had expressed opinions against the
abolition of this punishment. It was contended that corporal
punishment rather tended to harden the character; but the
same Noble Lord, in his evidence, said that lie had four of the
best non-commissioned officers in his regiment, all of whom

had been flogged two or three times. The Hon. Member for
Chippenham had referred to his (Sir H. Hardinge's) evidence
with respect to the Prussian army. It was true that in that
army soldiers of the second class were liable to be punished by
forty lashes, and this power was vested in the Captains of com-
panies. He, whilst Secretary at War, had inserted an article
of war, declaring, that if ally officer struck a soldier he was
liable to be brought to a court-martial and cashiered. It was
impossible for any two armies to be more distinct than the
• English and the Prussian armies, and it was totally impos-
sible to institute any comparison between them. He should
say the same of the French army. The English army was
now in the highest state of discipline, and he thought that it
would be the height of madness to alter a system which had
been found so successful. The Hon. Member fur Middlesex
had stated that the rewards for the army ought to be increased.
He (Sir H. Hardinge), whilst Secretary at War, bad endea-
voured to increase them. He had ordered that a medal should
be annually given to a non-commissioned officer and a private
of every battalion in the army. The same Hon. Member said
that commissions ought to be given to deserving non-com-
missioned officers. He (Sir H. Hardinge) would say that be-
fore it was attempted to adopt this system it would be better
first to procure persons out of that rank competent to
hold commissions. His (Sir Henry Hardinge's) own opi-
nion was, that great danger would arise from a renewal
of this species of punishment, if any cessation took place
of punishment. There was one othei• point to which he was
desirous of calling the attention of the House. The Noble
Lord opposite said that if five or six years ago attention had
been paid to these matters the question would not now be in-
volved in so much difficulty. He (Sir H. Hardinge) came
into office in 1828, and in 1829 the whole military code and
articles of war were revised and consolidated by him.—( Hear,
hear.) One of those articles restricted the
,number of lashes
which a court-martial was empowered to award, and if any
blame attached to any one he would remind the Noble Lord
that he succeeded the Noble Lord Palmerston, now sitting on
the Ministerial Bench, who held the office of Secretary of
War for seventeen or eighteen years.—( Hear.) In saying
this, he could assure the Noble Lord he meant nothing invi-
dious, he only referred to it in reply to the side-wind attack
which the Noble Lord had made upon him. He thought that
it would be most unwise to alter the present system. It was
very well known as a matter of history that the present military
system had been the most successful one ever adopted. But he
would ask this question, was England a military nation ? He ( Sir
H. Hardinge) would say that it was not ; that the feeling of the
people was decidedly against keeping up a large military
force; but, in spite of all these obstacles, he would say, that
from the days of Wolfe in Canada, the Clives in Canada,
Abercrombie in Egypt, and Wellington in Spain and Portu-
gal, the British army had carried with honour his Majesty's
arms into every quarter of the globe—that in peace it had been
subordinate to the civil power—and that, in short, in pliability
to all the duties of an army it had never been exceeded.
Lord HOW IC K said a few words in explanation.
Sir E. CODRINGTON denied that the mutiny at the
Nore had been occasioned by flogging. The mutiny was oc-
casioned by keeping the impressed seamen in confinement,
Sir H. FE IiGUSSON said that, having been forty yt ars in
the army, he could net remain silent on the present occasion.
Nobody could be more hostile to corporal punishment than lie
was, but he could not assent to see it done away with entirely.
Dr. BALD WIN rose, amidst loud cries of " Divide, 'di-
vide." He had before voted against military torture, and he
should do so now, were he to follow the impulse of his feelings ,
but he had a public duty to discharge, and he felt that he
should not be discharging that duty conscientiously were he now
to vote for the immediate abolition of corporal punishment, in
spite of the opinion of so many high military authorities that
the abolition must be gradual.
Colonel THOMAS had commanded a regiment eight years,
and, from his own experience, he could say that corporal
punishment might be done away with by the substitution of
another severe punishment. He would say, let the men be
subjected to bard drilling from sunrise to sunset, as he had
done with the men of his own regiment, and with success.
Colonel SIBT HO I?.?—Much as he abhorred corporal pun-
ishment, he vet thought that the power to inflict it should he
retained, although it might not be used. When he saw so
many distinguished officers, and among them the Duke of
Wellington, favourable to the continuance of the system, or at
least opposed to an immediate abolition, he would be ashamed
to oppose his own individual opinion to theirs.
The House then divided, when the numbers were—
For the original motion
For the amendment 95
Majority for the Speaker's leaving the Chair _ll7
Mr. LENNA RD said that before the Speaker left the
Chair, he was desirous that the House should decide the ques-
tion whether flogging should continue in the army during a
time of peace.-( Cries of " Order, order.") What he wished
was—and he had a clear light to take that course—to give the
House an opportunity, by opposing the Speaker's leaving the
Chair, of saying whether, in time of peace, this punishment
should continue or be abolished.
The SPEAKER suggested that the Hon. Gentleman
would have an opportunity of attaining the object which he
had in view, either on the bringing up of the report, or the
third reading.
Mr. LENNAR D- should renew the subject, either on the
bringing up of the report, or the third reading, by proposing
the introduction of a clause.
Major FANCOURT begged to ask the Noble Lord op-
posite, whether it was intended that the maximum of punish-
ment to he inflicted by Courts-martial should be restricted to
200 or 100 lashes ?
Lord HO WIC K was understood to say, in reply, that the
power -of Courts-martial to punish was not to extend beyond
200 lashes.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House resolved
itself into Committee on the Bill.