The Sun.
London, England, 1831-10-01 00:00:00

~~

1 tha not tad
to,tori
o re
tat P°rtucj
iuld he gel,
a great
roost wh°sl,
ports to rtoi.i
le the
„ tblot
ever; up
per an °AI
to the Vy
•fficult, f .
thougf,
I have otillvo
lite bran'-p
tri
he fearei
elt°
I to the t.
se ded the
ide atn'y ot
olsequ
c too
that e° dot'
pot.

what events tire annon Of the AiseoSa'tented in Portugal,
sted by French power migba ultimately lead. There
Was, adjoining
tion ; and theirto Portugal, a brave and high•spirited mi-
Lordships might depend on it, that Spain..
never would, anti never ought to tolerate the ovettbrow or
the Portugetse Government by such meaoss •—( Hear, hear.)
if anarchy Were once introduced into Portugal, it would
speedily be felt all over the Peninsula, and perhanS a ge-
neral war would be the lamentable result. /a considering
this question, he wished their terrisliips for once to sly,
nothing about the character oi Don 11Iiguel. He might
be Worse than Nero ; or, if it would please Noble Lords,
More, Worse than the elder branch of the fatnily of the
1 Bourbon ; but they were to look to the eor.aevenees of
interfering with his government. It I,Sarta;ld produce war
1 ,hroughout the Peninsula peal
all over E"rnite--
1 Hear, hear.) ]eta It And fott Wilatt 'a
Because Don Miguel was
y,, -G3oor..P._!tr in aceotalance with the feelings of his Ma-
th s toe only measure Of hostility which re
n'tasort a:t.vnt-(Hear, hear.) He loc,ked.r.ip,(,i.nasthiios
Ma-
ths pousea of , .
against P0r-
tu,..41. t iLIQ Alirliaten to bring
forward
last thlt u
.1 Was a ineastrre which would serer the -
waa flted that tt';o countries • and he must say, that it
if 1\11„-ie.'2 eneroue, and a less 'fair course of hostility, thani.
(Ileal,-.'rrt had actually declared war against Portugu
could
" his)heart For all the reasons he had stated, li.e
'lot give
sanction to the third reading of this Bill.. a
Viscount rs
1, "°DERICI-1 said, he would not enter into
i,:stateheeiisrce
itioi:ftnprit(aihesoh:
di ep 4
genera_ _evrew of our relations with Portugal, because the
relations could not be understood, unless
stood in which she at
this country in the situation
were. enabled to trace. all. the circumstances
regretted
He f the
oath respect to Portugal.
the doeuments which would be elucidatory o
ghatlanduet pursued towards Portugal were not yet readyi\,o
Zaus those documents would show that what the
Go
e
11 adduced as matter of crimination aeainst the
or!:erornent had no foundation whatever. The Noble EIL
• "4V to express an o inion that this measure of eqee.ti. -
:itn'pt"'s duties on wine proceeded from a spirit of hostGl i(r)).•
ereidet:ugal, Coupled withl a desire on the pirt this
....„(t.r
.t to conciliate the existing GovernmehnetooffFrance.
understood
tlial
,°, d AteltbEEN...." No, no.") Then
sol
ele to a
ho,,„"e Noble Earl attributed the measure aeor_
toX feeling towards the present Government oet,al.___
agallggt IS('W it n'as very difficult to prove a ',
statvy:
that a. such an assertion ; but he would distinctly
hoar :lc, notion was utterly unfounded in fact.—(Hear,
r ) Th never hard e 1.-esent measure bad nothing tre4 . anything to do with the existing_The
iael
of this country and Portugal.—(
It
relations t
o'
andl
ie -
we, a
b!cloalizing the duties on ovine wag nhoetarn:e)wc,ee„
ceaco-oricasure the propriety of which
tifieilaiFe'' of• Very soon after he became aerloanttle:ils,
he bad long
coup T, With the commercial interests of
tdvaotY, he entertained a douht wheth any:,roef
(tibee-
;seed le, deeerilied by the Noble Earl .
w acrid be
tvas at
er"' the treaty with Portu
hi a
e.,.:lgth convinced, that so far from bgeain'gthbae,nseofiefiaarl
frn, "to"tindiercial or political point of view,tc
tries,,ta ing to cement the union between I
hear.)
That :lc effect was decidedly the reverse.—(Hear,
nigh: or
two coun-
Wroo,,u.as his Opinion, and, whether it was rlg •
,o
hew,lB,.)_a) it
o was not now taken up for the first tithe. 1
ent,
ak,when he was not connected with the Government,
41 the regneSt,4l by certain individuals who were' o
rove-
eeotatioton- nufaetures of Birmingham, to malse som.ric
they
escribed s with respect to the trade with France,. 1
preaeotedthe evils which they complained of, that
with
l'ranee 6'141 carrying on an extensive tradet
He
and
being
tea nee, t" the operation of the Alethuen trFcai,.Ze.erald,
who
wtoairsted. their representations to Mr.
tt)ok the iithie'"
letter which
President of the Board ofN.reTsaerYade and he
aecorep rty of an old friend to state, in
his
the anled tho • "that in
Asethtio ee representations,.
nuisance.
but a ' ' ''
'--(dlear.\ u treaty was not only an evil,o.
but it
opinion,
hhowed ' This might be too strong a
.term.,
tirgued What his
11•11' Ith4t )° Pre -"
was unjust and impnli tic—
., feeling s •as at the time. 7he Noble Earl
count the
it tv'aesr' measure'ltion of treaties by which this
hwoul°l4ght to be Ilinouvnirl,aand impolitic because it ser•eas..
l'iProel.4lre t,°, a nation that did not meet us rd treat feeling, lie admitted, that if it wereNl'aolite)h•lieolaaLtoiordn
eouiti
heap
there was no censure which
theld not' in that
raise des:ai:e• on Alinisters that they
wuoeu now, as he bad
,ar,eued before,
~Hte would, however,
violated,ar and that Miri-t
411 tie were
not'Abodundo
btreahty
‘lllaesthuen treaty to give that ar] teaf.,4 which eon Nyltl the Methuen
contended. The Noblenocce
was re 4". that, accordinog 'toe the Methuen treaty, no i
after
15 yealtolred. but that by the treaty of 1810, which,
_et._
ipo°o3l,e.of Brecilis°i'votted,
naanty.article to
,Iten,s,u.spended for
Now he contended,
the pu .
414,1,1110 the mannere':vnaswheiteesh tah'e Methuen treaty. was
aotatetti , 1 in the treaty of 1810, that no such notice was
the
Alto Plated by the latter. The Noble Earl spoke of
t:Tatlicheeca:::ll:orttirt,inatigtlyaltr as a great measure of commercial policy.
it sa
as War not a true description of it. The fiict was that
poraet
ttlirna,tlla
tlh'eortsuigmailtistiot
'titer tn4' The treaty reovided that if at any time there-s
solt)arribL; relative vi induce
d utoee
3„tiPUlatmgland refused thepe ' wines of Portugal on the term
"tehituT' the', Porto al shouldv'l have a
referelat''l°,l in hick she stood before the treaty
hadn it a
right to return.. tob
ra'ate"Y in 1,0 English woollens. Thus Portugal
'"(int 0 a her own hands• There was not a word. said
hot tre4t;telcee.,„arld therefore* no just charge as
treaty were, as
` "oneeive,7".' be Made. if the Methuen-
to
to a violation
set!et,ttiiida.ef it". lit was disadvantageous, they had a right.
,;', 1 r 01 hi:opinion it was contrary tosonakd cottu-
t :t,.'Aetl43l.,;"iltles, and it was likely to involve 111..." country
ie eolutoes, ins'
of really benefitting: it. Tile Oporto
it'C and
wa,°Y tlaes the legt
f'..bg!a.) s' quite as had
that between
far from the
„,,hatedt one ar, 'ween the two
oi-e-: 3)easion that 1
moat:4'l..4le :Itta!rel. Forinsi
that i\t. Ss obii..llt, istration or
irisot he aiageu tO write to
that , tualaoridnot give satisl
treatyr(lnality fw°l-11(.1 give ti
t° te'. 111"(1)‘1011v/lehliihrsdhe '
fts°'n el" tura' t h °PI
ly
.0(41 -pott° ° -We 20,00 L args
of
a,,,,"ta, vi/, and not from Lisbon and other ports of
thast'N, fo uat advantage that was to the consumer.. ,
N, tirl eoll,r his life he could not tell ; but the fact wa.e,
siii;ugldd'quence of the monopoly of Oporto, the people
the'ttneee ecittrank, under the name of port, ae n)o
to '044/4 'lli4lnd that could be invented—not, indeed,
g1a,,,, chi 0, ~
the ~,,,.(1.0
.. ss.ortu,gal, but of the...dealers of wine in
state to
th 'gal, th nt of England had been compelled to _
l'u't
'verntit" r'l9 of " Hear.") Since the year 1810,
is' 11, at
'll' I i • , oss vi 'olation of
aer,s-eueti ,e la reen guilty of aar ,
ef -6ktie, ".reatY, and that if re'dress were not giveo, the
andg of tt
°hie I. had, th f necessarily
11 *e which the
would follow. The Government
re, Ora „e , ere_ore, given the no e
t ese4ta Otlired.
~,eat
h. ens and therefore the , ffcct of the Methuenitwo
No redress bad been afforded to its
te:l44tlries. .1,1.1_ toy thing but frisndship between toni-eroos
to
ad"ttopeopl:eo-11,1!_thuen !reeky, moreover, vlwaas
obliged
Nee, . t our w(io`pyortuga.. That country
We might
Will, 4uY (let, tent! et 15 per cent. duty.
1\;0.!.3 °1 Port. ''‘' liked On the salt, the orange.s, and the
ortiorm
Ltsiw thi, wa:a!, provided we preserved the
tho 3 ef all ~... a bad policy ; for reciprocity should be be the
you Prupobi jitomarnercial treaties. Unless we could establish
:
ion
rould dot
Co_tl.eartl
end two negatives made an affirmative,
on
ier j:."olitries
___"!. d that a treaty which was r '
1),„"e Wills ce
id
Y 01 the change in our commercialwith
• "ee' the u be good for either. After contending
that
any
e0ti.,... N!)ble Vis-stint concluded by denying,
ttaeee, ;.weratiain os hostility to P -tu a'l or favour to.
aliiest ,"ad ever had policy
,ti, y g Goer,,._ the slightest cieffecgt of inducing his
ti i e 1a,,.1,_ "1", cot to propose this measure. .
ieliat(hie laet'w%frld‘sEfilsh..lNGTON had heard with. sati.sfac-
hetes , declared th': 1 is Noble Friend's speech, in wnhoi."ehr
b. noetility
to
port re motives for this measure had,
oe .
bugal or extravagant favour to would
P"lrt'e've l'hed that
neap' !liter the act, could believe that the country.
ii,.l' !tit eon(, of ti e Noble Lord and his colleagues,
tAt'.°llltl shuo'ence in that declaration ; but Ire thought that
ad a• get,
0, IV, that the country must suppose, from the
t..°Pted thi ' t e Government to Portresel, that they had
th"ig4al, but
4811:0erai.s(umnre, not.only from inimicalb feelings to Poe-.
bth_Ttesition
..' passion. His Noble Friend bed placed
ts ,ar f "POn two grounds—one of finance, and the
I,:'ved atte:rnstt'eree• On the first his Noble Friend had re-
w°l-de
countarinwer. On the latter there was a fact to which the
tenetd 48.) that 51,
'inlet, w_ "" coneumption of Portuguese wines since the
s n'e last fixed had dropped in' this country. The
hernpti D'l°n of Portuguese wine was a decreasing con-
be de", am] therefore the produce of duties upon it must
; egon Would
sUnce„ creasing prod
The way to increase the con-
ment
dPtY'ti Govern be t4oced'ecreaße the duties : but Ills Ma-
‘("rea4) the hail increased the duties still further to
„,.,___
oi e consumption for objeats inimical to the
~,,,,7,1 sent of Portugal. The Not D 1-e then pro-
Viuselq t° ecntrovert the doctrines laid' downeu 'by the No,ble,
if it re„,,ea
e was
o._er,-ong
.the Methuen treaty, and contenueu
ought, . o, i.ntentin to abandon that treaty, that we
r„te, '..? have given notice--and lon notic inoo He in-
-110" "rat the Alethuen treaty was ingd !tend
r‘tlir:deiatrteeattyhaotf
14i4i)stertssoulil
treat.;
s, if a nntice of our intention the have itch given, and if it had no'fbeen given,
lions. Were -u
~,, _ g yof a gross violation of its stipule-
gven, but the treaty
btu . The No Viscount contended that notice had
specified the form of the u9tiee,

, t and that fora► of notice certainly had not been git'En. His
Noble Friend hail stated that the basis of all commercial
treaties was reciprocity. Now whet was the reciprocity here?
With France all our cOlomercial dealings did not exceed
7 300,0001, or 400,0001. a year, whereas with Portugal it
was 2,000,0001. or 3,000,0001., and with Spain it was
2,300,000/. During the last ten months Portugal had been
regarded by the Government of this countryin an inimical
manner, and measures affecting it had been adopt'd in
passion; and not on those sober principle s that ought to
regulate the relations of nations. We should not have
telacted the present moment for taking these steps with
respect to Portugal ; but the fact was, Noble Lords did
not like the Government of that country as it now stood,
and they wished to produce alterations in it by what he
would call revolutionary means—( Hear)—and he would
tell them, if these means were successful, they would es-
tablish is that part of the world a war of opinions con
netted with a war of religion—(Hear)—attended by all
the mischief inevit tidy associated with such a species of
strife in countries so situated. It was his duty to put that
Hou•e in possession of all the information he bad obtained
concerning the question before it. He had been informer,
and he believed correctly, that a loan had been negotiated in
the city of London, on the security of the church property.
the Crown property, and the property of individuals in Por-
tugal, for the purpose of enabling Don Pedro to carry war
into that country. Was it net surprising that this Prince,
who had diverted the money appropriated to the payment
of the interest en the Brazilian bonds from its original
purpose to carry on a Portuguese war, and who had
in consequence lost ground in Brazil,—was it, he rei•eated,
not surprising that he should be able to raise another loan
in England ? Yet he had done so, and for the very same
object.—( Hear. ) There was another fact to which he
would call their Lordships' attention. It appeared that we
had now two ships of the line, and he knew not how many
frigates, stationed, for the protection of his Majesty's sub-
jects in Pm tugal.—(Hear.) Why, he would ask, was this
formidable mode of protectio❑ required in time of peace ?
It was not to ships of war that his Majesty's subjects
should be taught to look for security, at the moment when
we were negotiating with Portugal on various points oi
policy. Teeir protection ought to be the laws of that
nation, and the faith of treaties.. And what was the
period chosen for this display cf force ? The very time
when we had compelled Portugal to do justice to his
Majesty's subjects under the very treaties we are now
breaking—(Hear)—for it was through the provisions of
those treaties that tee enjoyed the privileges we claimed.
Transactions like these were unworthy of the dignity of
the British nation. They would expose his Majesty and
Ministers to the consequences of a war of opinion and of
religion in that country, and those who had advised these
measures would be responsible for the result.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANP.[CARDE thought it their
duty in considering the question before theta, not to look
at what good Portugal or France might reap from the
measure, but what would be the benefit likely to arise
from it to Great Britain. For his own part he must re.
ward it in a very different manner from the Noble Duke ;
it being, in his opinion, good both as a measure of British
finance and as a measure of commercial policy. In @eying
this he was not bringing forward any new view of the
matter. Mr. Pitt, in 1797, when speaking of the Oporto
Wine Coiop,ny, stated that if the grievances complained
of were not remedied, they would be at liberty to seek a
more beneficial win:• trade somewhere else. With respect
to the alleged violation of the treaty of 1810, he thought
he could satisfy the House that that argument could not
affect the question. By the provisions of that treaty the
treaty of Methuen was continued ; and now, because they
acted as they had a right to do under the treaty of Methuen
they were charged with breaking the treaty of 1810. The
Noble Duke had compared the relative amount of their
exports to France and the Peninsula ; but surely they
were not to act on that ground alone. Were they not to
consult the comfort of the people of England, and to pro-
cure them an article of convenience or gratification if they
desired it; were their enjoymente, to be abridged because
the French p rsisted in refusing English exports ? He
would not appeal to the French system for the purpose of
the Noble Duke—he would appeal to that system for
avoidance, not imitation. Let the admirers of forced ma-
nufactures look to those of France, and see the result of a
narrow policy. They should not think of Don Miguel in
their deliberations en the present measure, but of the
financial and commercial interests of England ; and he was
of opinion that they would act wisely in cultivating those
relations of trade with France which might lead her to
direct her energies to arts productive of peace and its
blessings.
The Bill was then read a third time, and passed.
LUNATICS BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to acquaint their
Lordships with the great difference of opinion that had
arisen between the two Houses of Parliament concerning
the Lunatics' Bill. The amendments introduced into that
Bill by their Lordships had been rejected by the Commons
in a lump, and as the 13i11 now stood it presented a fright-
ful picture of legislation. He would just lay before the
Howe the consequences that would result from making it,
in its present state, part and parcel of the law of the land.
Suppose any of their Lordships had the misfortune to have
a female relation who, from child-birth or some other ac-
cidental circumstance, was afflicted with temporary de-
rangement, say for six weeks, and that during this time
she was sent to a lodging. The Bill bound the keeper of
the lodging, under the penalty of a misdemeanour, to send
her name and her condition to the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, and the Solicitor to the Commis-
sioners of Lunacy.—(Hear.) This was not all. There
was a greater instance of thoughtlessness, so great, that
how any number of persons could commit it, it was im-
possible to conceive. The keeper, for concealing these
particulars limn the Secretary of State, and the solicitor, was
liable to an indictment for a misdemeanour, even after the
lady was recovered, was moving about in society among those
who never dreamt that she had experienced such a calamity,
—yes, even though she might have married in the interven-
ing time. Any meddling malicious person might indict the
lodging-housekeeper ; and what would happen then ? Why,
that the special pleader, and the Curt, and the Jury, and
the papers, and the public, would be put in possession of
all the circumstances ; and if the trial went on, the lady
must be called into the witness-box, to prove the collateral
issue establishing the fact of her former lunacy. She
might he called, when in perfect health, to prove that she
had been mad three or four years before.—(Hear.) How
any mortal could advise such a clause he could not con-
ceive. His observations implied no disrespect to the
House of Commons ; for that House could not have
known the contents of the Bill. It had been sent up a
second time to pass in that state, or not at all. He
should be sorry if no Bill passed ; but if they could not
get a better remedy than that, it would be more advisable
to leave the care of lunatics, as of old, to patents and
guardians. He could not see on what grounds objection
had been made to the Commissioners taking an oath of
secrecy. Other public officers (lid so; and it was more
especially called for in a case where secrecy was the very
essence of the thing. As the Bill now stocd, it contained
one or two of the greatest abominations in legislation that
he ever SAW, coming from one House of Parliament to
another. In its present state he never could agree to it.
Tie course lie would recommend to their Lordships was
to have the Bill printed with the amendment~ inserted
by the Commons, and the rejected amendments of that
House, which would 'thee the different bearings of the
matter before them at cne view.

Their Lordships agreed that the Bill should be printed
as recommended by the Lord Chancellor, and adjourned
at a Quarter past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, SEPTEMBER 30.
The SPEAKER took his seat to-day at Half-past Three
o'clock. _ . _

Lord IN GESTRIE presented a petition from Mr. John
Cecil, of the city of Dublin, setting forth the evils which
at priscnt afflict Ireland, and praying for the appointment
of a Baird of unpaid Commi,sioners, to examine and re-
port upon the state of that country.
Aftcr a few observations from Mr. LEADER and Mr.
PLUTIIEN, the petition was ordered to lie en the table.

;iiitnate child of the 4i4ttfucti
as itinwitnto.--(" -Hear," and
is Alett**ty being- a bond
coutrittlid only to say
bond dirtily-lad nearly
stance, stlitpiol rs ago, in 1 SOl,
Df Mr. iiet;:lbat'great states-
o the 1114(66..tint0, stating
sfaetion tfr. t;,• 4601 Govern-
to Fraucey -istrgcriority but
was depriv the' Methuen
pposite thought it an advantage
'OO hogsheads of wine annually