The Sun.
London, England, 1831-03-19 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

1144i:sir inference from his statement was, that the total
towbcr of ships employed was 1,600, and of men 20,000.
cwhat was the fact—a fact which he called upon any
4) deny if he could? That this number of ships was
until amount of all the ships which had been entered
littcla from our North Arne' ican possessions in the course
hp: Year and it was well known that these ships made
h ted voyages, averaging one voyage and three quarters
itrit ship annually.—( Hear.) By taking that fact into
hi7otit, the number of ships employed in the entire trade
lour North American colonies would be reduced to
; their tonnage to 246,000 tons ; and the number of
to 11,000. From that amount we had to deduct the
thunt of shipping and men not employed in this parti-
trade—the timber trade. That amount was 100
41%27,000 tons, and 1,500 men. After making that
lelikti°ll, we had 800 ships, with 221,000 tons of
143ege, and upwards of 8,000 men employed in the
er trade with the Gaieties. Thtt simple fact would
tt: the House how careful it ought to he in giving
4 eoce to the exaggerated statements which bad been
forward on this suhject.—(Cries of "Heir, hear.")
efo was anxious to bring the question of this trade
%tire the Committee in the way of pound, shillings, and 1
ttg)t; for that, after all, was the proper way to look at the
tlieJ,t, and he wished, therefore, to state to the Committee
tittZsount of real loss which the country suffered in conse-
‘ ee of the difference in the duties, Now in doing this
etu'ould take the statement which had been put forward
I,e t'e ship-owners themselves, and he believed he shred I
tiisle, from'that statement alone, to lay before the Com-
ec an estimate of the loss which we had suffered in this
h,rit which would make the House reflect and wonder how
he preposterous system should ever havebeen introduced
h4,:e he (Mr. P. Thomson), and those who acted with
lieere accused of going too much upon theory, and of
litrig principles too fir, he thought it would be proper
e the country should know how far it went at present
kertY for this protection. Two years ago his Hon. Friend
billellernher for Bridport moved for an account of the
htoiit of duty which had been received upon North
e,e'lcso timber, and also' fur an account cf what the
teee,-"" of that duty would have been if it had been re-
pt'', upon Baltic timber. Now, the result of the diffe-
ee between those two amounts would be, upon
Litt °h.:lrving of the ship-owners, and the peti.
biers themselves, the actual amount of the loss
Zit the country sustained from upholding this pro-
( , u• The language of the ship-owners was, that
to:,,ein should withdraw that protection at all, the
15,,7 of this trade would go from them to the Baltic.—
thl tlds trade with the Canadas, since its first commence-
le, tliq the year 1810, had cost the country a sum of not
4tirtisgaq 20,000,000/. Ile hell in hand the accounts
4- hail been laid before Parliament in pursuance of
iteration of his Hon. Friend the Member for Bridport,
183 referring to those accounts, he found that in the year
tt ' the difference between the amount of duty levied on
it:l4'l4 timber that year, and what the turiouet of that
(teowould have been if it had been levied on Baltic
417 r, was 1,226,0001.—(Hear, hear.) The difference
,4:826 was 1,409,0001., and so on in the succeeding
14,'• Last year the difference was 1,348,0the001.1a5. making
lejether the loss to the country during t seven
‘lB°f 7,424,000L---(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He
et-lued that to be the loss, taking for granted the state-
-It4t of the ship-owners, that if this alteration should be
14;in the duty, the whole trade would go to the Baltic.
bs,:andeti his calculation on the statement of the p,ti-
ki r, a, but he would strengthen that calculation by one
h eu had been made in a different manner, which did not
lh,lliite so far, and which appeared to him a better one._
Vwuid lake the timber imported from the North Arne-
st,44 colonies at 20s. per load more for the freight than an
it,, (Itisotity from Europe, and e would take the if-
Nqs as to the quality of the timbehr by the market price,
(tkLestimated it at 11. 10s. less than that of the European
kkj• With regard to the deals from America, he would
44: that their cost of freight was 61. more, and that the
titsu!e in quality between them and the European deals
sting it by the market price, amounted to 61. more.,
i rarer] then, that in the year 1829 the calculation
Strithos,--in that year we imported from the North
le can colonies 393,000 loads of timber, which cost
'et pOre in freight than the same quantity would have
11.°In Europe, making 393,0001., and the difference
kih"lity being estimated at IL 10s., made an additional
ittitier 590,000/. The difference of freight upon 18,250
(hitted of deals imported in that year, estimated at 61.,
44
'.4.109,000/, and the difference in quality, estimated
heat 61., made a further sum of 109,0001. It thus ap-
t('
til from this statement, which checked the former
at;
LAN --on, tnat tne total loss in that year amounted to
Si; 'OOO/., a auto which the country bad to pay for fol-
-0 this circuitous mode of obtaining its timber instead
ke,l4. directly for it to the Baltic. He defied them to
oherthat this loss was made up to the country in any
!lien'', by the employment of capital in this trade
Neh,. could not he profitably employed in some other
NZ; What was the capital employed in this trade?
gst,;4'll-owners estimated the tonnage at 430,000 tons.
St;'„nici strike off the 30,000 tons, and leaving it at
10' uo tons, the rate of freight was 405., which in
(teoo tons made 800,0001. Now if the country ac-
'4 tte.3l, up those ships, and paid their owners that
NO and kept them sailing about the Atlantic and doing
Ng, it would be seen that the country would be a
et' re_bY such an arrangement. It was said that
sure would totally destroy this trade ; but
iNt't denying that this measure would eventually
NZ a very considerable portion of the trade, he
;I(%tio that it would produce more than a trifling de-
setlu in the employment of the shipping. But even if
l
144 calculated to throw the half of the ships out of
uneett!citt, he would contend that it would be more
clulitt heal to keep those ships sailing about doing nothing,
,°lta f ttY up the whole of the timber which was cut
,:thuit exportation in Canada, and bring it to the coast
Lltielltrit! it there, than to be paying for it at the rate
1.-74 t :e country paid at present. By such an arrange-
tja- that even the country would he a loser by 20,0001.
tneot't" it lost at present. The Government did not
*eth_t-1), 11" Y violent or sudden measure,—they proposed
0 %.,,. gradual diminution of the protection. They said
,tsstio'n willing that the country should continue to pay
' 4 (If that protection, hut that the existing amount
;NI, " too great, and that it must be diminished. Thi.s
1,1411.: was not to come into operation immediately, it
;°tll:t take effect until the lit of January next
.year,
NI 'Olio diminution is the duty on Baltic timber
L'ttlon'e only 6s. in the first instance. The entire re-
-I'oolEll,ole end would be 15s. ; but as that would be
iNee - about gradually, it would not have the effects
LI right be anticipated front a sudden reduction to
ctite Lunt.. With regard to the article of deals, the dif-
ktWeen the duty on Canadian and Baltic deals
Need at present to 355. ; that difference, by the new
kiie) would be increased to 395., in favour of the
ttiolllttl ',.._ He believed that one effect of this measure
t., %%4;7 to transfer one-third of the eight hundred
estli,t 'li it was said would be taken out of the
hat
trade to the Biltie trade. It was fair to
they would there meet with
i foreigncoro-
htdtl'i 144 he was surprised to find the petitioners
l
, st nearly the whole of this trade would b e
;icletitrinO. n foreign bottoms. From that statement they
Nthe whole trade of Russia, and in refutation of it,
lleill inerely state the following fact :—that of the
04 alltity of timber and deals which had been =petted
i4Y, ear 1830, from Norway, Sweden, Russia, and
?,
it:tih ere bad been 141,000 loads imported in foreign
c‘r.) ,219,000 loads imported in British ships.—
hZthe aeooking at that statement, would any man be-
the tkeertion that the whole of the erode would fall
h(lo4ands of foreigners ? He would further state to
Vile a , that in the year 1823, the amount of British
itc tried‘ eqmpared with foreign tonnage engaged in the
Lk ebd c., was in the proportion of three-fifths to two
'ger th ,hat it was now something beyond the propor-
el(ti,irce-fifths to two-fifths, though since the year
(421,41,r roight come in foreign ships, which could
(Ceso,;(ts to that period, be imported in British
;:.sthi'''ear, hear.) He repeated, that one-third ol
01 tP which would be thrown out of employment
elit4sitipeq the Baltic trade, and that unless the foreigners
ISA t 01.," Purpose, which they would not be absurd
Vesta '4' they could not compete with theta. He
hklUitt e:tectised of ignorance for saying that the remain-
OCtiee: of the ehips which would be thrown out of
11e.'nkrit I.lt in the Canada timber trade would find em.
'4et lo the coasting trade, and especially in the car-
' hs iteZarl'• He was taunted with not knowing that
ttittnd tit "hips were generally of from 400 to 500
\ 41. y t-, a:, the
li ~hips could not be employed advan-
' ~. coasting trade. Now he would take the
Alps the ship-owners themselves, that there were
~ , ariinunting to 430,000 tons, employed in
Li
it‘i, 4„4e,0 4 dividing that tonnage by the number ot
LiOlip:'"!' give 260 tons as the average tonnage to
it:ll•,ttiployed in this trade.—( Hear, hear.)—He
are that.there were vessels of 400 and 500
1,
hi4i•whhitilltellZed_ -in that trade, but, to give the average
\ifi'll stated, there must be a considerable number
erehie .
I \ at hr uYed in it under 200 tons. Now, as an
%. 4 te he ships employed in the coasting trade, he.
listit,,,, *hi j number of ships, and the amount of their
iit:sl Itt ..,!' had come into the port of London laden
14441:u.e year 1830. The number of vessels was
ky 411 1 tit 4 tons ; and by dividing the _ ) ,
' !sasels,, i 32 tOOO would be found that the average

tonnage was '204 tons.—(Hear, hear.)—He would ask
then, had he been proved to have been guilty of ignorance
when he assserted that a large proportion of the Canadian
vessels would get employment in the coasting trade? He
contended that the existing system of protection was exor-,
bitant and uncalled for. In the last Session his Hon.
Friend the Member for Bridport had moved for an account
of the number of vessels which had sailed from the Baltic
with timber to the Canades—had discharged their cargoes
there—had reloaded and then sailed to this country, thus
undergoing the expence of a double voyage for the pur-
pose of avoiding the duty. That such things were done
was a fact. But it might be said that if such a thing had
been done, it was only an experiment, and that it would
not be repeated. Ile denied that it was an experiment, the
thing could be done, and had been done. In proof of that
statement, he read an extract from a letter which he
had received shortly after he had come into office, from
a merchant in Newcastle, inquring whether it was not
the construction of the law that such importations avoid-
ing the higher rate of duty could be made, stating that such
importations could be made by the merchants there with
advantage, and expressing a wish to know whether it was
the intention of the Government, acting up to the declara-
tion of Mr. Herries last session, to have that part of the law
amended? He (Mr. P. Thomson) would ask whether
such a state of things as that should be allowed to continue?
It had been said that 15,000,0001. had been laid out in
&c. in the Canadas, and that that capital would
thus be thrown out of employment. In 18.22 the amount
of capital laid out in saw-mills, &c. did not exceed
150,000/. and he was sure that at present 500.000/.
!night be far above, though it was not certainly below,
the amount of capital laid out in that way. After all,
that capital would not be sacrificed. In the manufacture
of deals this capital woula still obtain employment to a
great extent. But it was said that while they wished to
promote emigration, they took away from the emigrant
the only means of disposing of the timber which he cut
down. Such a fallacy could not for a moment impose
on any sensible person acquainted with the subject.
Perhaps it was only one out of every one hundred of the
trees which the emigrant felled which Arts fit fur exporta-
tion, and it was a considerable disadvantage to have such
trees in the land which he had got to clear. That fact
was proved from this circumstance; it was customary
with emigrants, particularly where their capital was
small, to hire persons to clear the land for them, and
a higher price was charged for clearing the land, if the
lumberers had been there, than if the lumberers had
not been there. The Hon. Member for Cellington, in a
speech in that House, had described the lumberers as the
greatest nuisance that a new settlement could be exposed
to, and that they were the greatest pests and vagabonds
that were generally to be found in a colony. The Hon.
Member also quoted the authority of Mr. Richards to the
same effect, and then asked what became of the assertion
about the injury which this measure would produce to the
emigrant? There was one other point to which he would
call the attention of the House, and that was the propor-
tion between the shipping engaged in the direct trade with
Canada, and the shipping employed in the coasting trade
in that colony. From official documents it appeared that
in the year 1829 the total quantity of shipping which had
been employed in Canada, and which had been entered in
the ports of Quebec, St. John's, Halifax, &e. was 5,590
ships. It appeared that of these 3,712 were employee! in
the trade to the West Indies, and 485 in the trade with
the United States—making a total of 4,200 vessels em-
ployed in the coasting trade, and leaving 1,390 vessels
employed in the direct trade with this country. Such was
the large proportian of the coasting trade there, which
afforded a much better nursery for seamen than the other
trade. When in opposition he had entertained certain
views which he was not now inclined to abandon ; and it
was in conformity with long-professed opinions that he
had adopted the present course of policy. In conclusion,
he trusted that the House would diminish the psotection
slowly, eo as to obviate the evils commonly attendant en
changes of so extensive a nature too suddenly introduced.
The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amid much cheering.
Sir G. MURRAY begged leave to remind his Right
Hon. Friend opposite that the emigrants generally did not
derive advantage from timber growing on their own lots.
They sold the wood, but could only cut down a portion
of .the timber according to the quantity of land brought
into cultivation. If they cut doe n a larger portion than
they could dispose of, the brushwood which grew up
about the stumps occasioned the owner the greatest annoy.
mace, and rendered the soil to all purposes of cultivation
unprofitable, until it could be entirely grubbed out—a
process which no one could accomplish without consider-
able labourand proportionate expence.

Mr. K. DOUGLAS here rose, and only succeeded in
gaining a partial hearing, but was understood to observe
upon the peculiarity of the course pursued by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, who, hewing abandoned his former tax,
new came forward with a me..sure which was not to take
effect this year, but to come into operation two or three
years hence, as if Parliament had not enough on their
hands at present without entering upon a system of pro-
spective legislation. After incidentally adverting to the
consequences of the interdict put upon our trade with the
Baltic in 1809, the Hon. Member proceeded to detail, the
rel oive amount of the loads of tiinbar imported into this
country during the differentyears from 1820 to 1827,respec.
tivelv, specifying the places from whence such importa-
tions were made ; but the increased noise which prevailed
in the House, preluded die poesibility of ii tiring more
than the occasional fragment of a sentence, and the Hon.
Member accordingly sat down.
Mr. ROBINSON, who next attempted to address the
Committee, was met by loud and continued cries of
Question." The Hon. Gentleman commenced by pro-
testing against the principle of listening with patience to
all the arguments which had been adduced on one side,
while clamour was resorted to for the purpose of putting
down those who attempted to confute thesis ; but pro-
mised to compress his observations within a compara-
tively brief compass, in consideration of the impatience of
so many Hon. Members, who were at little pains to con-
ceal it. The Noble Lord had called upon them at that
late hour to give their assent to a new proposition, and
the Vire-President of the Board of Trade bad entered
upon a variety of details, in which it was impossible at so
short a notice to follow him, although he had come to the
House fuily prepared to discuss the question as originally
mooted. No change of such an extensive character, he
would venture to affirm, had ever before been so precipi-
tately proposed. In 1821, an alteration in the Canadian
trade had been contemplated, but how dissimilar was the
conduct of the Legislature then to that which they were
expected on this occasion to adopt ? At that period, grave
Committees of the two Houses of Parliament had been ap-
pointed, which received evidence, anti prepared elaborate
reports worthy of the importance of the subject, instead
or rushing headlong into a system of policy no less sudden
and ill-advised than momentous in its consequences, He
did not agree with the Member for Botoughbridge, in
thinking that Parliament might not legislate in any way
that in its wisdom it might think fit, and he therefore
acknowledged that they might alter the scale of duties
without any infraction of an engagement. The question,
however, was not to be viewed merely as one of finance,
but in connexion with all the importent interests which it
involved. They were to consider how far it might injure
the North American provinces,—how far it would be ex-
pedient to indict upon them an experiment of this na-
ture pending the recent experiment on our colonial trade,
—how far it was judicious to bring forward two such
changes without allowing time for ascertaining the effect
of the one before we ventured with so much temerity on
the other. The Noble Lord, it appeared, had given up
the assistance which he might have derived from arguing
his proposition as a measure of finance, for he denied that
he wanted money, and merely made it a question of free
trade. In making this admission, be had disembarrassed him
of many censiderations, to which it was therefore unneces-
sary to advert. Meantime he must protest against the man-
ner in which the judgment Of the Committee had been di-
rected, he would not say misled, by the statements which had
been put forth from the Treasury bench, touching the cost
of timber. Any one who looked at the shipping interest
in the present state of Europe, must perceive the inexpe-
diency of making this moat unwise experiment which might
be the means of withdrawing so large an amount of capital
and employment, at present distributed in our sea-ports.
They were contending for no monopoly, for only three-fifths
of the timber trade of this country belonged to the Canadas.
But the shipping interest, generally, had been gradually
declining for a very considerable period, as he could spew
by authentic returns of our shipping and tonnage, which
had latterly decreased to a frightful and inconceivable ex-
tent. During the last ten years the decrease of ships was
3,142, and of tons 251,509, while ship-building— no fal-
lacious criterion, be it observed—had likewise diminished
in an equal proportion. In 1827 there were 1,790 new
vessels; whereas, in 1830, the number was but 1,146,
making a diminution of 644. For this reason he had him-
self ceased to be a ship-owner, and had long felt no small
uneasiness, until he succeeded in extricating himself from
a losing interest. The Vice-President of • the Board of
Trade was totally mistaken in his account of the employ-
ment of British shipping in the north of Europe, and had
stated exactly the reverse of the fact. It was impossible
to have recourse to a policy more dangerous than the en-
couragement of the importation of goods from foreign
countries in preference to our own. In this system, which
we bad so unwisely established, the Americans, who were
a people peculiarly commercial, had never followed us, and

therein they showed their good'aenge and practical know.:
ledge of the principles which should regulate a State. 'I he
fallacious character of this theory had been amply exposed
by Mr. Munro, and subsequently by Mr. Jefferson, in a
a-work after his deatle—(Laughter. )
Mr. HERRIES said, that the question was of the
greatest importance, and the manaeement of it afforded an
example of political trick. With what expectation had he
come dawn to the House that day ? He had come down
expecting the Noble Lord to take off, and not to lay on, a
duty. There were circumstances attending the question
which deserved particular notice. The Noble Lord had
changed his purpose within a few days, and since he had
answered the question which he (Mr. Herries) had put to
him upon the subject of the duties upon timber. Had any
gentleman or party a right to call upon the House to de-
cide a question in that manner ? He had a right to ex- •
pect that a Committee would have been formed, not for
the purpose of considering the question merely as con-
nected with the budget, but to tike up the subject upon the
grounds of general policy. To suppose that Parliatnent
would come to the determination of resolving upon such a
question in a moment, was impossible for any man to ex.
pect. He was not spearing his own opinions.—(" Hear,
hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Whatever were
his opinions upon the subject he would not put them
forward at such a time. The House was called upon to de-
termine a question in the face of the report of a Commit-
tee, and it was impossible to suppose that it would go back
without grounding its proceedings upon a similar investiga-
tion. It was impossible for a majority of that House to go
into the proposition without a re-investigation of it by aComi
mittee. He was not unwilling to investigate the question
with as much care as it had been investigated upon a
former occasion, but he did object to be called upon to de-
cide upon it without an investigation. The House was
called upon to deliberate upon this question as part of the
budget, when, in fact, it was no part of it at all. The
Noble Lord felt himself able to dispense with that part of
the budget which be expected to derive from the duty
,upon timber, - for he found himself richer than be thought
he was, since be bad compared the Custom duties received
within the last two months with those which had been
receiied in the corresponding months of the preceding
year. The Noble Lord bad not taken into consideration
that the similar months of last year were months of frost,
whilst the present months admitted of navigation and
trade, and that therefore his comparison would not be
found to hold. If the Noble Lord reckoned upon an in-
crease of Customs throughout the year, upon such grounds,.
he was reposing, upon a very poor foundation. The Noble
Lord's hope of a surplus at the end of a year would be
visionary, and it would be found that the most that: could
be said of it would be, that it was but just able to pay the
public. What he had said ought to induce the House to
pause and institute some inquiry before it consented to
adopt so new a course in so great a branch of public policy.
Mr. WARBURTON rose, and shortly after the CHANCEL-
LOR of the EXCHEQUER, amidst the cries of " Question ;"
the CHANCET.LOR of the EXCHEQUER gave way, and
Mr. WARBURTON said, that considering the great
number of gentlemen who wished to address the House
upon the subject, he should move an adjournment of the
questiona---(Cries of " Hear, hear," " Go on, go on,"
" Adjourn," " Divide.")
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
after the attack made upon him by the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Retries), he felt it necessary to
say a few words. The Right Hon. Gentleman had al-
most insinuated that in the answer which he had made to
him a few nights aco in that House he had been disingenu-
ous.—(Cries of " No, no," and " Hear, hear.")—At the
time he had given that answer be had given it most sin-
cerely. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he
had altered the whole measure, whilst the Hon. Member
for Boroughbridge said that the measure continued just
the same. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) admitted
that in some respects he had changed his mind, and he had
a right to do so; for what would he the use of any Minis-
ter's receiving deputations from all the trades and great
interests in the country, if be were not to be influenced
by what they said ? He acknowledged that the repre-
sentations made to him by the trades did make him
change his opinions, and as soon as he was satisfied he
could make a change in this trade and scale of duties,
gradually and without any injury to the revenue, he
was glad to do so. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hen-
ries) had expressed his apprehensions lest the revenue
should be in danger of proving deficient; but the House
had heard his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) state-
ment, that the revenue would he amply sufficient to an-
swer every purpose, and in that opinion he continued.
He believed that the differences made with respect to duty
upon timber had been injurious to the country ; and he
asserted most positively, that the present measure would
not destroy the Canadian trade. It would divert part of
the ttasle of Canada to the Baltic; but as to destroying
the Canadian trade, he was convinced that the notion was
erroneous.

Mr. ATTWOOD moved that the Chairman leave the
Chair. The question could Lot be adjourn,,d unless the
adjournment were to be very long, and to mark the sense
he entertained of it, he should move that the Chairman do
leave the Chair.

The question was put, and silence ensued, when
Mr. WARBURTON rose and said, that upon a matter
of so important a nature, and which involved the commer-
cial interests of the country, he thought the question ought
to be adjourned, in order to give an opportunity of ex-
pressing their opinions to all persons connected with the
trade.—(Cries of " Question.") If he were to speak, he
could not say that he could limit his observations even to
within an hour.—(Cries of " Adjourn," " Question," and
"Go on.") So many gentlemen wished to address the
House, that he could not think of addressing it that night.
—(Cries of " Question, question.")
The Gallery was then cleared for a division, but some
discussion took place after the exclusion of strangers, of
which, we understand, that the following is the substance:

✓
Sir R. PEEL said that he had never been involved in
greater difficulty than in coming to a decision on the
question. He expected that he should be called upon to
discuss a portion of the Noble Lord's Budget, but he
found to his surprise that, instead of having a part of the
former Budget, the Noble Lord thought he had succeeded
so well with his Budget of 1831, that he had ventured to
Make one for 1832. He (Sir R. Peel) was anxious to
hear the matter fully discussed. He could not dismiss
financial considerations, nor the interests of the con-
sumers, nor those varied and important considerations
which arose out of the question. He felt that we had at-
tempted too many experiments, and that it was not de-
sirable to add to them by an experiment on the shipping
and colonial interests. The Noble Lord gave no reason
for the proceeding. He had himself completely changed
his own view of the question, and would give no reason
for the change, but expected that, without any considera-
tion, all others should also adopt his altered views. The
Noble Lord would not accede to the proposition of his
(Sir R. Peel's) Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Herries), and
have a Committee of 21 to inquire into the subject. Such
a Committee could do so far more satisfactorily than it
was possible for the whole House to discharge such a
duty. They stood upon the report of the House of Com-
mons in 1821, which went fully into the whole subject,
and recommended the existing scale. The Noble Lord
was bound to show that that report was unfounded, but
not even one cogent argument had been ursed to prove
that to be the case, and yet they were to be excluded from
that further inquiry which they desired—(llear)—and
this, too, when the resolution referred only to a future
year, and could not require immedia'c or instant decision.
He did not mean to impute to the Noble Lord any desire
to take the House by surprise, but he must say that if
such had been the Noble Lord's intention he could not
more completely have effected it. An Hon. Gentleman
opposite had said, on a preceding night, with reference to
the question of Reform, that the surprise of the measure
then brought forward had taken away his breath ; and
it really appeared as if the Noble Lord had been anxious
on this occasion, in a similar measure, to take away the
breath of those on his (Sir R. Peel's) side of the House.
As he should not be precluded from further inquiry even
in the House, and as it left the subject open to have a
better and a fuller inquiry before a Committee, he should
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Borough-
bridge.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON claimed the vote of his Right
Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel), on the ground that as he
wished for further inquiry, he ought to support this
question of reporting progress, and asking leave to sit
again, instead of that of the Chairman leaving the Chair.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was quite astonished at the ob-
by the course which the Noble Lord
servations of his Noble Friend. He was reluctantly, in-
deed, compelled,
(Althorp) had pursued, to prefer that proposition which
would undoubtedly preclude the Noble Lord from pro.
ceeding further with the question at present. But why
did the Noble Lord postpone the question to the Friday?
Why postpone the discussion to the day preceding the
question of Reform, which must necessarily occupy several
nights ? Why, too, not begin till nine at night, when on
other occasions the important business of the evening
always began at five o'clock. He could not help thinking
that this singular delay was intentional ; and lie could not
consent to allow all those important interests involved in

- —.„.. .
thi' question to remai❑ in a state of suspense till it ac-
corded with the pleasure of the Noble Lord to fix some
subsequent day for continuing the adjourned debate.
Would the Noble Lord either allow this question to have

precedence of Reform on Monday, or would he agree to
the appointment of a Select Committee ? If the Noble
Lord would do neither of these things, he should vote with
the Hon. Member for Boroughbridge.--(Cheers.)
Mr. RICE stated, that it must not be forgotten that
the bringing on of this measure was not the act of Go-
vernment. It had been pressed upon them from the other
side of the HOLse as essentially necessary to the satisfaction
of important interests in the country, neither were they
answerable for the lateness of the hour at which it was
brought forward. The Sugar Bill admitted of no delay,
as the duty expired on the sth of April. The Colonial
Trade Bill was equally urgent for other causes, and they
were not responsible for the debate which arose upon it.
Mr. GOULBURN said that he was one of those who
had pressed for an early decision by Parliament of the ques-
•.ion respecting timber, as brought forward by the Noble
Lord in his budget, and which had been unnecessarily and
ton long delayed, to the prejudice of those interested in the
colonies and shipping. But had the Noble Lord told him,
when be pressed him on the subject, that he meant to lay
no new dirty in 1831, he should have been satisfied to wait
to any future period the discussion of the political question
involved in a future change of the timber duties. Such
arrangements could not affect the trade of this year, and it
was only with reference to that trade that he had applied to
the Noble Lord. In voting upon the present question, he
,lid so on the ground not of stifling discussion, but on the
refusal of the Noble Lord to accede to the proposal of ap-
pointing a Committee to inquire into the whole subject,
coesiderinz that that which had been settled by a Com-
mittee, after a laborious inquiry, in 1821, ought not to be
completely changed without that careful examination and
inquiry which could be effected but in a Committee.
The Committee then divided on Mr. Attwood's amend-
ment, that the Chairman do leave the Chair,
For the amendment 2:36
Against it. l9O
Majority against Ministers —46
The orders of the d iv were then disposed of amidst great
noise,and confusion, during which the greater part of the
Members hurried from the House.

During the exclusion of the reporters from the gallery,
which lasted nearly an hour, we understand several Mem-
bers addressed the House amidst great cheering, which was
from tune to time audible—(Mingled with cries of " Ques-
tion," and " Divi,le")—beyond the immediate precincts of
the House. On the question being put, " That the Chair-
man do leave the chair," the shout of " No," and " Ay,"
which was raised by turns, was absolutely startling ; the
affirmative cry, however, appeared the more lusty and
powerful. The division then took place, apparently amidst
great excitement, judging from the sounds that escaped as
far as the pissage of the House. There were repeated ex-
clamations of " Teil again, tell again ;" as some mistake
seemed to be apprehended in counting the numbers. When
the result of the division was announced, the cheers that
buret from the vieorious party were loud and long-con-
tinued : the excitement prevalent within doors communi-
catd itself to the strangers without, who rushed into the
gallery (upon its doors being opened to their impatient
knockings) full of anxiety to learn the particulars of the
struggle.

Saunders, Gent., to be Second Lieutenant, Feb. 14; C. W. Mar.
tin, Gent., to be ditto, Feb. 15; 'W. K. Child, Gent., to be ditto,
Feb. 16 ;F
H. Harene, Gent., to be ditto,•Feb. 17 ; F. H. Dyke,
Gent., to be ditto, Feb. 21; R. de B. Bere,s, Gent., to be Cornet,
Dec. 20; E. Hussey, Gent., to be ditto, Feb. 12; W. Gladdi,b,
Gent., to be ditto, Feb. 14; T. F. Best, Gent., to be ditto, Feb.
15; F. Geary, Gent., to be ditto, Feb. 16 ; C. R. Hopkins, Gent.,
to be ditto, Feb. 21; M. Waldo, Gent., to be ditto, March 14.
East Kent lteghnent of Yeomanry Cavalry.
F. Brockman, Gent., to be Cornet, vice H. T. Brockman, re.
signed, March 15.

Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Forfar.
The Hon. W. Ogilvy to be Deputy Lieutenant ; F. L. S. Wed-
derburn, younger, Esq. to be ditto; J. Guthrie, younger, Esq. to
be ditto ; W. 1). Proctor, Esq. to be ditto ; C. Lyell, younger,
Esq. to be ditto; W. Hunter, Esq. to be ditto; J. Mill, Esq. to
be ditto ; D. Fyfe, Esq. to be ditto - I). Hunter, Esq. to be ditto ;
P. Carnegy, Esq. to be ditto; D. 'Nairn, Esq. to be ditto; W.
Ogilvy, younger, Esq. to be ditto, March I.
Forfar and Kincardineshire Regiments of Militia.
G. D. Hunter, Esq. to be Captain, March 2; D. Laird, Esq. to
be ditto, March 3.

Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Hereford.
It. W. Evans, Esq. to be Deputy Lieutenant ; T. Dunne, Esq.
to be ditto, Jan. 30; T. H. Biggs, Clerk, to be ditto, March 7.
Herefordshire Militia.
The Hon. J. S. Cocks, commonly called Lord Viscount Eastnor,
to be Lieutenant-Colonel, vice Berrington, resigned; J. J. W.
Garbett, Esq. to be Captain, vice Phillips, resigned, Feb. Lt.
Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Warwick.
H. C. Wise, Esq. to be Deputy Lieutenant, Feb. 20 ; It. M.
Atty, Esq. to be ditto, Feb. 25.
Warwickshire Militia.

E. R. C. Sheldon, Esq. to be Major, vice Ferrers, deceased,
Feb. 17.

Warwickshire Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry.
K. Greenway, Esq. to be Captain, vice Earl of Clonmel, re.
signed, Feb. 7, H. C. Wise, Esq. to be ditto, vice Beck resigned,
Feb. 8; H. J. Bromfield, Gent. to be Cornet, Feb. 12.
- -

Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Surrey.
The Right lion. Fletcher Lord Grantley to be Deputy Lica-
tenant, Feb. 25; L. Penrhyn, Esq. to be ditto, Fcb. 28; G. T.
Nicholson, Esq. to be ditto, March 4. •
Surrey Regiment of Yeomanry Cavalry.
IL S. Trower, Gent. to be Lieutenant; W. Hankey, Gent. to
be Cornet, March 8.

DECLARATION OF INSOLVENCY.
JOHN SUTCLIFFE STONE, Birmingham, gun-maker.
BANKRUPTCIES SUPERSEDED.

JAMES MA NN, Cleoburc Mortimer, Salop, baker.
SAMUEL BREEDEN, Manchester, draper.
WILLIAM MARSHALL, Fountain-grove, Huddersfield,
shear-manufacturer.
BANKRUPTS.

SAMUEL WALTON FAXON, Jermyn-street, surgeon, to
surrender March :e5, April 8, at one, and 29, at twelve, at the
Court of Commissioners. Pain, New-inn, London.
JOSEPH WALL, Manchester, dealer, April 4,5, and 29,
at two, at the York Hotel, Manchester. Milne and Parry,
Tenmle, London ; Wheeler, Manchester.
CHARLES MORRIS, Manchester, builder, March 30, 31, and
April 29, at twelve, at the Albion Hotel, Manchester. Adling-
ton, Gregory, and Faulkner, Bedford-row ; Morris and Owen,
Manchester.

BENJAMIN HA LLAS, Ossett, Yorkshire, cloth-merchant,
April 15, at four, 16, and 29, at eleven, at the George Inn,
Wakefield, Yorkshire. Battye, Fisher, and Sunlow, Chancery-
lane ; Archer and Greaves, Ossett.
THOMAS and CHARLES GREASLEY, West Smithfield,
clothiers, March 22, at eleven, 25, at twelve, and April 29, at
eleven, at the Court of Commissioners. Gale, Basinghall-street.
HE NTRI D'EMDEN, Upper Frederick-street, Condaught-
square, bookseller, March 25, at one, 29, and April 29, at two, at
the Court of Commissioners. Chilcote, Bond-court, Walbrook,

DIVIDENDS.
I'. Robins, St. John's-square, Clerkenwell, silversmith, April 8,
at one, at the Court of Commissioners—A. Lopez, M. J. Iglesias,
and F. Gonzales, Copthall.court, merchants, April 8, at eleven,
at the Court of Commissioners—J. Welford, Oxford-street, auc-
tioneer, April 8, at eleven, at the Court of Commissioners—J. B.
Blundell, I. Piper, and J. T. Gritton, Bankside, Surrey, iron.
merchants, April 8, at one, at the Court of Commissioners—T.
Walkden, Islington-green, china dealer, April 8, at twelve, at
the Court of Commissioners—T. C. Riggs, Russia-row, aiht.
manufacturer, April 8, at one, at the Court of Commissioners—
R. Booth, Laund Mill, Lancashire, worsted-spinner, April 9, at
nine, at the Starinn Man c hester—E. Robson, Leeds, grocer, April
12, at eleven, at the nn, Leeds—W. Sherley, Stanwell, inn-
keeper, April 8, at ten, at the Court of Commissioners—H.
Bowring, Mincing-lane, colonial broker, April 8, at eleven, at
the Court of Commissioners—J. Potter, Maidstone, grocer, April
8, at ten, at the Court of Commissioners—J. Calvert, Wressler,
Yorkshire, corn-factor, April 11, at One, at the 'White Horse,
North Cave, Yorshire—J. Lewis, Bristol, merchant, April 9, at
eleven, at the Bush Tavern, Bristol—G. P. Andrews, Bristol,
money-scrivener, April 9, at eleven, at the White Lion Inn,
Bristol—G. Armstrong, Liverpool, linen-draper, April 9, at one,
at the Clarendon-rooms, Liverpool—W. Doubleday, Manchester,
tea-dealer, April 8, at two, at Mr. Gandy's office, Liverpool—W.
Bill, Birmingham, brass.cock.founder, April 11, at twelve, at
Dee's Hotel, Birmingham—J. Donnison, Liverpool, joiner, April
8, at one, at the Clarendon rooms, Liverpool—T. F. Drought,
Ihninster, druggist, April 16, at eleven, at the White Lion Inn,
Bristol—D. Rider, Leeds, and J.Armitage; Huddersfield, cloth-
manufacturers, April 11, at eleven, at the Court-house, Leeds—
J. S. Baker, Bradford, Wiltshire, innkeeper, April 9, at one, at
the White Lion Inn, Bath—W. Brown, Beeston, Leeds? cloth-
manufacturer, April 11, at twelve, at th Commercial-buildings,
Leeds—W. M. Seammell, Warminster currier, April 11, at one,
at the Castle and Ball Inn, Bath—W. Johnston, Newcastle-upon-
Tyne, draper, May 6, at twelve, at the George Inn, Newcastle-
upon-Tyne—M. Duncan and J. Monday, Kingston-upon-Hull,
wine-merchants, April 11, at twelve, at the Kingston Hotel,
Kingston-upon-Hull.

CERTIFICATES—APRIL 8.
J. Smallbone, Titchborne-street, Haymarket, picture-dealer—
s. Bartram, St. Mary-street, Whitechapel-road, coachmaker—
J. Stanford, Frederick-street, Connaught-square, smith—S.
Spurr, Warnford-court, merchant—J. Coulstock, Reigate, Sur-
rey, :miller-1 Gray, Prospect-row, Bermondsey, master-ma.
riner—J. Price, Manchester, paper-dealer—NV. Smith, Brick.
lane, Spitalfields, baker—T. Ciller, Manchester, dealer—J: Ja-
cobs, Walton-upon-Thames, Surrey, auctioneer—'F. Nicholson,
Burstwick, Yorkshire, horse-dealer—R. Hudson, Birmingham,
currier.

We wi4h the creepir g enemies of Reform would, for a
moment, throw up their heads and look at the movements
around them in favour of that important question, and then
ask themselves whether their wisest course were not to ac-
quiesce peaceably in that which is temperately prcceeding
t i its consummation ; rather than, by petty cavils, excite
indignation, and pedlars urge to excess. The Hampshire
meeting of Thursday was one of great moment. Those for
&sex and Surrey take place to-day. All England is on
one side, in this question ; that which is opposed is hardly
the dust in the balance. There is, indeed, an attempt to
make a secret and surreptitious movement, for the purpose
of getting up some petition by the merchants, bankers,
and traders of the city, against the Reform Bill. We
trace the obscure path of the mole, by the dirt which it
throws up at intervals. Here is no meeting in this case--
no names of respectable persons appear; but their de-
claration, we are told (in a printed circular, which
-omebody, however, appears to have corrected in the
advertisement), lays for signature. If so, it will
produce eggs ; and a rare brood must the chicks be.
This rural image puts us in mind of the country gen-
tlemen. It is said that some of the country members who
mean to vote for the Bill, in obedience to the wishes of
their constituents, will follow the Scotch precedent during
the rebellions, and make their sons vote against it.
The names of some of those persons have been sent to us
but we will not inert them, because we cannot believe
the statement. What ! the high-blooded gentry of Eng-
land descend to a trick which a Change-alley jobber
would be ashamed of? Is this the manly code of good
faith and honour which the English youth of family are to
adopt as their guide of private morals and public ditty'?
It cannot be. We will not believe that any English father
would propose a -course so base to a son, or that any son
would obey so infamous a manda-e. TLe eye of the nation
watches all that is going forward; but if this al-powerful
controal were withdrawn, we have too much confidence in
the honour of English gentlemen to suspect or fear the
disgraceful hypocrisy which their calumniators impute to
them.— Times.

Last night the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced
a striking modification of his original project for the regu-
lation of the timber duties The Noble Lord now pro-
poses to leave the tax on colonial timber as it stands at
present, without any increase or diminution. With respect
to timber from the Baltic, he makes a slight change, but
only in. the way of reduction. Instead of a duty of
2/. 15s. a load on the latter, he makes it 2/. 95., for the
year commencing the Ist of January, 1832 ; 2/. 3s. for
the following year; and the third year from 18S2 it is
to be 2/. The Canada trade in timber will thus still be
protected to a certain extent, though that protection
will be gradually diminished in proportion to the
gradual diminution of the duty on Baltic timber.—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a reason for
his change of plan, which, if well-founded, must
be very gratifying to the country. When he gave his
financial statement he had proposed to equalize the timber
duties, for two objects—l tit, for the purpose of benefitting
the revenue; and 2dly, for advancing the commercial and
general interests of the courtry. Since that time, he had,
he says, found that the revenue would not require the
increase of duty, and he was therefore left to regulate the
trade, merely with a reference to general interests. This
concession of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,. had it
been made some days ago, would probably have satisfied
the opponents of the measure; but having unfortunately
been delayed till the last moment, the opponents not only
refused to be content, but by a somewhat abrupt move-
ment, the fairness of which is not very intelligible, suc-
ceeded for a time at least in getting rid of the proposition
altog Cher. It cannot be denied that the tone taken by
Isome of the friends of the measure has been very offensive,
and we msy perhaps be al'owed to take this opportunity
of d notmeing that parrot gabble about political eco-
nomy, which is now so common in and out of Parlia-
ment. A person attends a few lectures of some pedant:
lie gets by rote a few abstract rules, and because he has
acquired a little knowledge, just a degree above the nur-
sery, he sets up for a statesman. A boy who has contrived
to acquire the recollection of a few rules of syntax or
prosody would he scouted if he therefore thought himself
qualified to write a teatime on philosophy or an epic poem,
and yet one of these political novices will, on tbe strength
of a few scraps of ill.digested maxims, undertake to alter
the whole commercial code of a nation, and dispose of the
welfare of a great town or important colony with the same
nonchalant air with which a brown coat is changed for a
blue one. These babblers should be tauebt thet.ae point
in dispute is nut the correctness of this or that abstract.
principle, but the application of that principle to the
infinitely various and curiously complicated conceins
of mankind. The coxcombs in question may waste as
much paper as they please in scrib'alieg, but they should
not be buffered to Meddle with public affidrs. They in-
jure every cause which they touch, and render con-
temptible every party which admits eheir fellowship. We
see some attempt was made to take advantage of the ma-
jority against the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a 4ort
of insinuation was thrown out that the Ministers should
resign. Of course the Ministers wiii..not. be so mon-
strously k absurd—we had almost said,. so madly,wic ed.
What, resign ! with the whole nation cheeraig them on
to consummate their nobly-begun plan of Reform ! We
quite agree with the Member for Westminster that the re-
signation of the Ministers would he at this moment the
greatest calamity that could be inflicted on the country.
But the notion is too absurd to waste another word upon
it:—Times.

Our attention has been, of course, for some time par-
tially diverted from foreign concerns to the more impor-
tant question at borne, of Reform ; and we really have not
been sorry to avoid noticing with very earnest care the
ever- varying aspect of the political horizon abroad, and of
beieg obliged to announce to-day the appearance of that
which might be wholly out of sight to-morrow. We open
our eyes, however, now, though unwillingly, to a scene
of some danger. The tumults of Italy, and the unsett.ed
disputes of Belgium and Holland, do seem at last to be
upon the eve of calling for the interference of neighbouring
States. Antwerp is a place from whence we may be
annoyed beyond all conception. It is what Buonwarte called
"le pistolet stir le sein d'Angleterre." It in no degree
menaces the legitimate grandeur of Fiance, fur the whole
width of Belgium is between that city and the Frencli
frontier. We are not, therefore, surprised to learn that
a British fleet, consisting of six sail of the line, with
other vessels, are ordered fur the Scheldt—that
scene of Lord Castlereagh's and Lord Chsith.im'e
glary.
What an ominous recollection. With re-
spect to Italy, the Austrians were, no doubt,
preparing to pass the Po, according to the last accounts of
the diplomatic agents, and may therefore, by this time
have arrived at Modena. Is it possible that the ruinout
which we noticed some time ago can he titre ; and that
the Emperor Francis hopes to keep Louis Philip quiet, by
the menace of starting the young Napoleon against him,
if he objects to Austria's settling the movements in Italy-
according to her own taste ? It would be a sinister omen
for the young, perhaps the involuntary, tts,•irdnt to the
French throne, to adopt as the accustion against its pre-
sent occupant, that he did not readily accede to the ag-
grandizement of Austria in Italy If, as our correspon-
dents informs us, the Court of Vienna have put forth such
a threat, the policy of Metternich is as shallow and in-
consistent as it is mean and crooked. Our movements,
we trust, will he all defensive. Large steam-vessels will
effect all tie objects we wish, which are of a negative
kind,—that we be not molested, and be not put in a siturt-
den in which we shall be exposed to future molestation.
In relation to our foreign concerns, we want nothing but
what we have—nothing, nothing, nothing. And what
we have, we have of right, and with the consent of Eu-
rope ; and well see have deserved it.— Times.

We were in a great measure prepared for the resu!t of
the division of last night on the question of the timber
duties. It has been known for some time that faction and
corrupt interests would muster strong on this question, and
that a majority against Ministers would be the consequence.
The majority was, as our readers will perceive by our re-
port, 236 to 190 against Ministers, or 46. In opening
the subject, Lord Althorp observed—" He was well aware
of the nature of the opposition with which he was threa-
tened. He knew the power of the interests he had to
contend with, and he knew, too, the union which pre-
vailed among those connected with shipping trade in ques-
tions of this description. But he was satisfied the altera-
tion he had to propose would be beneficial to the country;
and he, therefore, felt it his duty to resist the co:nbina-
tions that were opposed to him, and to persevere in the
prOjected alterations of the duties." Lord Althorp did
right in persisting in his purpose, for a better argument in
favour of thd-Beform of the House of Common; cannot
be given than is afforded by the proceedings of last night.
Here we see the boroughrnongers'•leaguing with the ship-
owners and West Indians to prevent a repeal of taxes
from which great benefit would have beep derived by the
peop!e. It was proposed that the present heavy duty on
Baltic timber of 555. the lord should, on the 'lo4anusty,
1832, experience a reduction of 65.; a similar`redUction
of 6s, on the Ist January, 1533, and a reduction of Si.
on the Ist January, 1834—in all a reduction of
.15.- I"!
three years. It has been proved that Cana (1,7
isisanijizu,reed.
and nut benefitted by this timber trade,
fhoiuvroliNl:doirbtl:
tAli,t.neernitcatno ccoulitoinvai„tiorin. ,
outso tolarthteh equwesetliflnebe2'