The Sun.
London, England, 1838-03-31 00:00:00

l'„ s A liberal Discount to the Trade.

SINE CONCUIHTU.
I' all the errors' to which human nature is prone,
none are attended with uonsequemoas so much to he dreaded
as those resulting from secret vice. it entails on its votaries a host of in-
, unities of th:. most alarming c:mracter, which the resnedia I art has ever
tnu_e;counter. Debility both phyc'cal and mental are its only ding-
oh`. . Ilypoclsondriasis in all
s varied forms, with a long catalogue
oaladies, haunt the unhappy victims of this delusive and self.destroy-
log passion.
obglanks, however, to the divine art of healing, the suffering invalid may
to Ltii.:ta.....feand permanent restoration of his health by having recourse
t:nd debit.r• I'S ANTISEPTIC DROPS. The emaciated constitution,
• dated frame, arising from these causes, can be s c-instated...t he
fibre and untoned nerve can he revived—and thus the impo,tant
blessings
p"nl,s of health once snore secured. The cause, themselves being
alaudoned, persons need mint spalr, however inveterate and
,-,cacted their maladies, the Propi ictor beirg =vino d, front.long and.
that his plan of
treat„t perseverance its the use of rensedies here advised,
itreatment is both rational and scientific, fou,lded crop sound pathological
suirle=:ge, and practical pharmaceutical infestigat:',n. One trial will
ce. to couvice tlia most incredulous, and to realize the patient's most
'sanguine wishes
s 3°l(ll,lPacket's, containing Drops,. Pills, and„ Lotiois Powders, at Ili.
tack Ask fra
slim with Esidey's Antiseptic Drop,:, Each packet Is aceempa.
trestsmonials and advice which every one labouring under the
s enumerated would do well to consult,
soles,ale and retail by Messrs. Hannay and Co ,C 3, Oxford-street;
lout
• 14., 229, Strand • Johnstone, (;"5, or 1111111; and may 1.15.° procured of
(311,niseeicin venders in the town and country.
writteLnry°--The gZsloine have the name of the Propr;etor, J,
upon the Gov mount stamp outside time wrapper.
" Dear Sir—" Somers Town, Nov'. 27, 1837.
so As you refuse any pecuniary recompense for the medicines
th4r.k..
~,,vnt me, slicer gratitude compels me to tender you my best
.I,am now, thank God, well as ever I was in roy-life, after suf-
feringot Sa,'"Wl.',pch. lam quite free from nervomne,s and low spirits. I can
vice. 'yo`j" confidence whether the Drops or Pills were of the most ste-
w,. dour smsode of treatment lam perfectly satisfscd, is a correct
•
141, this cert'fi t *You are quits, at liberty to pub-
,but'"-e I rely on your clispation in withhording my name
" Pear Sirs 7onrs respectfully,
" J. N. S.

LOSS OF SUPP,
WITHOUT SPRINGS,TEETH CLASPS,L ORIED WIRES,
LOOSE TEETH FASTENED,
And Filling Decayed Teeth
WITH MINERAL 51ARMORATUNI.
ONSIEUR LE DRAY and Co., SUR-
GEON-DENTISTS, No. 60, NEWMAN-STREET,
OXFORD-STREET, continue to It ESTOnE DECAYED TEETH with
their celebrated MINERAL MAR MORATU M, applied without PAIN,
HEAT, or PRESSURE, which in a few seconds HARDENS INTO
ENAMEL, PREVENTING and CURING the TOOTHACHE, allay-
ing in one minute the most excruciating PAIN, and rendering the
OPERATION of EXTRACTION UNNECESSARY. They also
FASTEN LOOSE TEETH, whether arising from neglect, the use of
Calomel, or Disease of the Gums. INCORRODIIILE ARTIFICIAL
or NATURAL TEETH of SURPASSING BEAUTY, FIXED, trom
ONE to a COMPLETE :-ET, without EXTRACTING the ROOTS,
or GIVING any PAIN, the ENCUMBRANCE of SPRINGS, CLASPS,
WIRES, or any other LIGATURE, at the following PARIS
CHARGES :
A Single Artificial Tooth CI 10
A Complete Set
A Complete Set of Natural Teeth, on fine gold
p1ate............. 15 0 0
...................... ...............
An entire Set of Natural or Terro Metallic
• Teeth, nighty finished in the first style, with
fine gold sockets, usually charged 4•0 guineas 20 0 0
Arranged on the most improved
and scientific principles, and in every
case restoring perfect A ItT.CULATIO N and MASTICATION. Arti-
ficial Teeth out of repair, remodelled to fit themouth, and restoYedeq
beauty and durability to their original state.,
Newman-street, At home from Ten till Six.—N. B. No. fir', Oxford-
street.ual in

FRANKS'S SPECIFIC SOLUTION OF
COPAIBA.
Within a period of Two Months upwaids of Three Hundred Patients
were successfully' treated at the Metropolitan Hospitals with ERA N. K
SPECIFIC SOLUTION of COPA IBA.
By j F.R.S., one of the Council of the Royal
CogePgehol-n
fiSeurigyeo(tte,en SurgeonE to St. Thomas's Hospital, and Professor
of Surgery in the King's College, London.
..I have male trial of
.Mr. Frank Solution of Copaiba, at St. Thomas's
Hospital, in a variety of cases of discharges in the male and female. and
the results warrant my stating, that it is an efficacious remedy, and ont
which does not produce the usual unpleasant effects of C opal 3.
(Signed "JOSEPH HENRY GREEN.
"46, Lincoln's-Inn-gelds, April 15, 15.35.
By Bransby Cooper, Esq., F. R S., Surgeon to Guy's Hospital, and Lec-
turer on Anatomy, &C. &c., and others most eminent in the Medical
Profession.
I. Mr. Bran Cooper
ii
tp,eraersienngl stehsitsi cnoomn py 1
oi mf et tes
tfio Aclre.yGeorge
sForl Franks,
ikosn,
ndcicmpas
sts ic yasiGonorrhcea, for which disease Mr. Cooper ha prescribed
pleasure
the Solution Sri Or or twelve cases with perfect success.
18.15."
is confidently recommended in all cases of
;clear Uie'relherat D;tcharges, Spasmodic Strictures, lrrita-
tio:;i'ill:liresrwii:-CP'svtaar,leucGati
tion of the IC.i.hipys, Bladder, Urettwa, gnd Prostate Gland ; its purify-
got. rid health render it particularly applicable in all
.r,:js debility.
George Frauks, Nurgeon, 90, Blackfriar r^,d Lon
Prepared only icrattet;lfoerctrsou3pxoeidi tiiiibere
and
den, and may be lual of all Nledicine-v.,enders in the United Kingdom,l- in
Bottles at 2s. ild„ 4s. 6.1., 411,1 I Is. each
{. Qearge Froas, Black friars-read," is engraved 011
CAUTION.—UIIte,A
the Government Stamp, it c:lnctot he. genuine.
• • hr. rankS jrig MOURN Uptil Two o'clock daily,

Sherwood, Gilbert, and Piper, Paternoster-row ;J. Churchill,
Princess-street, Soho ; Parbury and Co., 8, Leadenliall-street ;
Thompson, Oxford; Stevenson, Cambridge ; Sutherland, Calton-
street, Edinburgh ; and J. Porter, Grafton-street, Dublin.

RIEN QUI MANQUE, an Indian Sauce for
Fish, Game, Soups, enriching Gravies, &c.—This new and
appetissante SAUCE (from a celebrated Indian receipt) has been
submitted to the opinion of one of the most distinguished gourmets
of the day, who has pronounced it " ItIEN QUI MANQUE•
Prepared only and sold by Taylor and Grignon, at their Italian
Warehouse, 2, and 3, Suffolk-street, Pall-Mall East, where also
may be had their Concentrated Luncheons.

32, GREAT RUSSELL-STREET, BLOOMSBURY, and
No. 16, PRINCES-STREET, HANOVER-SQUARE.
M NFOER
RFILLLINGSDECCANCEDETEEATHN E M
LOOSE TEETH EA,TENED,
AND LOSS 01."TEETII SUPPLIED.
Monsieur MALLAN, Sen. and Monsieur EDW. MALLAN, Surgeon
Isentists,
_32 GREAT BUSSE. L-STREET, BLOOMSBURY, and
16, PRINCES-STREET, HANOVER-SQUARE, continue to
restore
DECAYED TEETH 1, ith their MINERAL SUCCEDANEUM, (of
which they are the Sole INVENTORS and POSSESSORS), without
Fain, heat, or pressure, and FASTEN LOi.SE FEETH, whether arising
from age, neglect, diseas of the Gums, the use of Calomel, or
any other cause. They have also disco e-ed a NEW COMPOSI-
TION for ARTIFICIAL TEETH. A peculiar advantage attending
Teeth made from this SUBSTANCE is, that they are totally imper.
vious to acids. ARTIFICIAL EETH have hitherto been found ob-
iectionable by INVALIDS taking MEDICINES which have a tendency
to DISCOLOUR them, and try persons of bilious habits. Messrs. M have
been successful in obviating these objections by their NEW DISCO-
VERY and they can fix the above without extracting the STUMPS, and
even en GUM' of the most tender nature, protecting the adjoining Teeth,
however loose. No WIRES or LIGATURES are used, and they
MATCH the ORIGINAL TEETH in point of Shape and Colour.
GUARANTEED for MASTICATION and A ItTICC 1. ATION. NA -
TU It AL and ARTIE iCI AL TEEM fixed on the same principle.
N. B.—Mons. MALLAN, Sen , may hr consul:ed :is usual, at No. 22,
Great Russell-street, Bloomsbury, and Mons. EDW .111 D MALLAN,
Nd, 16, Princes-street, llnnever-square.—Charges moderate, as in Paris.

•,
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of ABERDEEN had already had occasion more
than once to call the attention of the House to the state of the
Church of Scotland, and particularly to urge on the notice of
her Majesty's Government the inability of members of that Church as
at present Situated, to meet and contend with the great extent of des-
titution and the absence of all re:igious instruction which prevailed
in many parts of the country. He only referred to this subject now
in consequence of the new character which it had assumed both from
the reports laid on the table of this House from a Committee ap-
pointed to inquire into the matter, and also from the declaration made
by his Noble Friend opposite of the plan which it was intended should
be pursued by her Majesty's Government in dealing with this most
important question. The plan as detailed by the Noble Viscount he
took to be briefly this. First, to refuse any assistance to the cities of
Edinburgh and Glasgow, the state of which had been described so the
report, in order to afford them the means of affording that religious
instruction which appeared to be so much needed ; and also, by a
parity of reasoning, or by whatever process the Noble Viscount had
arrived at the conclusion, he must suppose that the same rule was
intended to apply to the other great cities and towns of Scotland.
Secondly, it was proposed to apply a fund, hitherto a part of
the hereditary revenue of the Crown, but which had recently been
transferred to the Consolidated Fund, the Bishops' rents and tithes, to.
the erection and endowment of Churches in certain Highland districts
and parishes in which the tithes should be actually exhausted. And
thirdly, it was proposed to repeal or amend an Act passed in the reign
of Queen Anne, at the time of the Union of the two kingdoms, under •
which the tithes of Scotland had been possessed by lay proprietors, with
a view to facilitate the erection of Churches in those parishes in which
the tcinds were exhalsted. He should now have some observations to
make on different parts of this plan, but be most particularly wished
their Lordships to believe that this question had not lost any of the in.
Wrest which it had possessed —(Hear.) Not only had he never known
anything like the interest which existed on this subject, but he believed
there had never been a question of domestic policy which had agitated
the Country to such an extent since the union of the two kingdoms.
He was aware that a considerable number of petitions had been presented
from the Dissenters against any measure of the kind suggested being
adopted, and particularly of late an increased action had taken plaee
among the Seceders from the Scotch Church ; but he was at it great 103 s
to think what was the cause of the great zeal and activity oxhibited
by the Dissenters On this point. The Seceders (Wins the Church of
Scotland were in fact united so completely with that Church that their
difficulties on the suhjeet were scarcely perceptible. The Members of
the Establishment must have their good wishes, even though they
should think that the mode which they had adopted of carrying out
their views was not best calculated to secure the desired end.—(Hear.)
But whatever might be the plan of the Noble Viscount opposite, accord-
ing to that which had been stated, his object would appear to be opposed
to that of the Seceders, and to be of a nature which he (Lord Aberdeq),
would not have ventured topoint out 4 for he said that he had detpique4

not to cram any funds in those places where they were most needed, am
where the DlFsenters were numerous ; and Le had announced that i
was his intention to afford assistance in those di,tricts where, although
it might possibly be required, yet there was no pusitive information of it
necessity, and where Dissenters did not exist. The Noble Viscount
had always maintained that he was anxious to promote the good of the
Established Church ; but he grieved to say that the pet fermances of the
Government had not always been in conformity with its professions,
Whence was it that this lamentable contrast existed in the conduct
of the Noble Viscount and that notwitnstandine his personal the
racter, his rank, and the honourable position he filled,
his policy was not consistent ? It might, perhaps, arise from
pressure of an influence, against which, no doubt, he had at first :true,
glel, but against which he bad struggled in vain.—(Hear, hear.) It
arose from the unfair situation in which the Noble Viscount was placed
in which, bound as lie was, andwilling and desirous, as he belie;,,f .
was—(Hear, hear;--to uphold all the institutions of the.,
found that he was compelled, for his own suppos' country, he
which he had adopted to secure the co-ejar,om of those who trete
,• It take the course
leagued together on this point.—'
short narrative of the case flaw V art e,ratear, lisar.) Ile thought that a
before the House would not be out of
place, in order that the troutz might judge of the propriety or impro.
priety of the police 71 the Noble Viscount. In consequence of the
great incroan of population which had taken place, and especially in
tha: great citiersand towns of Scotland, it hod become manifest that it
was utterly impossible for the religious establishment of the country
to afthrd the necessary means of instruction to the greater portion
of the population. But notwithstmding this had become evident, great
intercessions were made by the Established Church, and in the course of
a few years prat, three of four years he might say, not less than
200,009 d ISt4teen subscribed for the aurpose of building churches,
and he believed that there were now not less than seventy churches
in Scotland, which had either been built or were in progress of
building with a view to increase the means of instruction to the poor;
and it was to obtain a moderate endowment for these churches that
Parliament was now appbed to for its assistance. In 1533 a Commit-
tee was appointed to inquire into and report upon the subject, as it ap-
peared unnecessarily, for the facts were well known ; but as the Church
was unwilling to shrink from any Inquiry of this description, no oppo-
sition was offered to its appointment. The Secretory of State, in ad-
dressing a letter to the Noble Earl opposite, the first Lord of the Admi-
ralty, expressed a hope that the labours of the Committee would be
closed in six months, and that the people and the church would be there-
fore tranquillized ; but no report seas made until I 537, which was the
first that was delivered, and then that was followed by a second report at
the commencement of the present session, and their Lordships had on
the table of the House all the information thus attired on this im-
portant subject. The state of religious want which was disclosed was
far beyond anything that could be conceived. In Edinburgh the
amount of persons, taking into account all the exertions of the Member,
of the Church and of Dissenters, and every means of religious instruc.
Lion which had been adopted, was not less than forty-five thousand,
without any means whatever of obtaining religious instruction, while in
Glasgow the number was about 60,000, the amount of population in
Edinburgh being 190,000, while that of Glasgow was 213,000. He knew
that it had been said, notwithstanding the deficiency of means existing
in Edinburgh there were many sittings in endowed churches which ere
unlet ; and he recollected the Noble Lord opposite having a:J.ld that he
did not well understand how people who wanted to sa'a to church failed
in finding their way there. This remark waaperfectly just; but the
misfortune was, first, the people slid net ;cant to go to church—(Heer,
hear)—that was the evil; and, 'secondly, if they did want to go, they
would not be able to afford to arrive there, because all these sittings
were to be let, and, in order to obtain them, they must pay a price be-
yond their power, Now, Noble Lords must not imagine that the
Church had anything to do with the letting of these sittings; it was
not so : for in Edinburgh and Glasgow they were let by the magistrate,
of the town, and in Glasgow the funds produced formed a part of what
was called the common good, and belonged to the borough. Theministers
of the Church, therefore, had no control over the admittance of the
poorer classes, and he would also remark that theso sittings, although
inlet, were not unoccupied by persons who went there, and who did not
pay for them, but who ought to pay for them ; who went there on suf.
ferance, and from whom, therefore, no fund was derived. But even it
this existed to a greater extent, he begged to say that the Churches so
situated were only a part of what was called the voluntary system. It
was clear this could be only remedied by the territorial system, in op.
position to the congregational system. The latter was a plan adopted
by the Dissenters, and in which, of course, the system of voluntary at-
tendance was pursued ; but the territorial system was when a parish was
allotted to an individual clergyman, who went out and compelled the
people to go to the place in which he gave instruction, and it was only
by this system, which had been eminently successful in Scotland, that it
could be hoped that the wants which existed cauld be supplied. The
other mode of building Churches for those who could not afford to fre-
quent them, never could supply the wants of the poorer classes. In
two of the most populous parishes in Glasgow, it was found that exactly
in proportion as the poverty of the inhabitants increased, so did their
attendance at Church diminish ; for it was ascertained that in one of
the parishes, where the tenements were rated at 20/. and upwards,
the attendance at Church was 75i per cent., while in those parts
of the city where the houses were of the yearly value of 3/
the proportion decreased to nine per cent. In another parish the num-
ber of persons attending Church, in the districts in which the houses
were of the value of twenty pounds and upwards, the proportion was 654
per cent., while in that district in which the houses averaged only five
pounds the numbers were in the ratio of 111 per cent. From this it
appeared that the parishioners not hat'ing the power to attend very soon
lost the inclination, and crime, vice, and ignorance were perpetuated. In
1536 four new Churches were opened in Glasgow. Two of these were
quite filled with hearers, and the other two had large congregations;
whilst in the old Chtirches In the city the attendance had been much
increased, as had been proved by the increased amount of seat rents
collected. This increasehad amounted to 1471. a-year, and the revenue
was the best test of attendance. Both classes were, therefore, filled ;
but so far from the building of Churches doing any great good, they
might as well build mosques if they did not give to each Church a dis-
trict, and fix the labours of the Minister. The essence of the Chatten
of Scotland, on which it depended for success, was this district or pa-
rochial system—(Hear, hear, hear)—the allotment of a particular
district for the labours of the individuals employed in the Ministry.
In addition to the new churches, there were sixty-three chapels of ease,
which were now, in fact, churches, and to which districts should also
he allotted ; for all sacred matters they were already the same as the
parish churches. These great exertions, he must say, had been made on
the faith—(Hear, hear)—that endowments would be granted by Parlia-
ment, as a necessary consequence of the necessity for the erection of
these churches Which had been proved to exist in those districts ; and
he thought also, that they might fairly consider that the faith of Go-
vernment was pledged to this grant. His Noble Friend (Viscount
Melbourne) had, on a former night, stated how the Government in-
tended to act in this matter; lie stated that he was prepared to give aid
to those parts of the country from which they had no reports, and of
which, therefore, they could know nothing—(Hear, hear)—districts
which were undoubtedly of great extent, but in which there was
only a small population ; but with respect to towns in which
the destitution had been proved to be enormous, and which
Peculiarly and loudly called for assistance, the Noble Lord stated
that he was determined to do nothing. How his Noble Friend could
so stultify himself in the course which he proposed to take he )the Earl
of Aberdeen) could not conjecture, When the Noble Lord expressed
his desire to extend aid to the Highland parishes, would he recollect the
reports, by which it was clear that the amount of Highland destitution
in the city of Glasgow was greater than lie would find either in Argyle
or Inverness P In Glasgow there were no less than 11,000 individuals,
hard working men, with whom it was necessary to communicate in
their own language, who were out of the reach of all the dissenting
bodies, because not one would attend a dissenting congregation, but
who were anxious and willing to receive religious instruction. And if
the Noble Lord proposed, in honour and in good faith, to do any-
thing, he must extend his intentions to that which it was impos.
sible to deny existed in this great city, and also in the other large
Weems, in Dundee, Abereeen, Paisley, and other towns. Was it the
intention of her Majesty's Government to leave unremedied this
mass of ignorance and its natural consequences, vice and the
increase of crime ?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thirty years ago
the amount expended for public prosecutions amounted only to 3,0001 ;
it had now increased to 30,0001. and this increase was mainly owing to
the absence of that religious instruction which the people had a right to
expect. He remembered that some years ago that the late Lord Liver.
pool, in coloquial but at the same time emphatic language, and whist)
was at that period perfectly just, had observed that " ho eensidered Scot-
land to be the best-eonditioned country on the face of the earth." He
(the Earl of Aberdeen) regretted to say that his country was fast losing
that superiority in point of good conduct and morals which it had for-
mally possessed. If it were left in its present state of destitution,
nothing but ignorance and crime must exist. Ile did not objoct to the
proposal of his noble friend to grant relief to the Highland parishes,
neither did he object to the fund out of which he proposed to grant it ;
he did not wish to enter into an inquiry of the fund of bishops' rents and
tithes, but he looked at it as the hereditary revenue, and as forming part
of the consolidated fund; but -he thought that the state was bound to
gran( aid to the established church, if a case of necessity had beenproved,
out of any public fund, let it be what It might,—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Although, therefore, he had tio obteetion to the application
of this -fund, he would not allow the establishing of the doctrine that the
religious wants of the people ought to be considered in proportion to
the amount of such funds, Neither could he enter upon the third
part of the case, the altering of the act of 1707, by authority of
which the tithes were held by the land proprietors. The Noble and
Learned Lord who had then left the 110116 e had characterised the
measure as an act of spoliation, amid in truth it was nothing less than
spoliation of the landowners and of time clergy. He (sloe Earl of Aber-
deen) thought that the propasitien might be considered as a surprise
upon all parties concerned. When the commission had issued lie had
indeed looked into it, and remarking some terms which, as he consi.
tiered, interfered with property not subject to the controul of Parlia-
ment, he had urged the question before their Lordships et souse length ;
since that period Lord John Russell had addressed a letter to the Noble
Earl opposite (the Earl of Minto), In whirls Ito adverted to the sub.
ject, and said that another misapprehension, which was common, was
that they intended to interfere with private property, end Lord John
Russell urged the Nolile
supposition of Lord carefully to guard all persons against a
this sort, that they meant to Interfere with the act
of the Scottish Parliament transferring the property of the Church
to the land proprietors in Scotland—(Hear, hear,)—and he (the Earl
of Aberdeen) recollected last year that the Noble Viscount, he believed,
not knowing much about the matter, threw out the suggestion to
which he had advertea, and which had produced a great effect in the
Assembly of Scotland. A learned gentleman who was a member of
that Assembly, and who was also a great friend of the Government,
had said, in reference to the report which had arrived of the notice
thrown out by his Noble Friend, that he was clearly of opinion that,
situated as the teinds were, this was Ileitis( r a politic nor a just appli,
cation of them, for though they were purchased subject to the furls_
diction of the Court of Tcinds, yet by Act of Parliament it was fixed
that such interference could not take place without the consent of the herders. If this part of the measure weir persisted in, he adviseed the tenet proprietors of tithes to look to themselves, -tea arrange.
meat, however old, could bo eonsidered cafe, no plitiluie could be non.
sitlered secure. As the humble advocate s4' the Church of Scotland
he thought that he might with t-1414nee appeal upon that occasion
for sympathy and support to the flight Rev. Bench.—(Cheers.) The
Church of scotlancl tv.as grateful for the countow.tpoq which it had
reb,iyecl from the Biala Reverend Prelates, itild he could assure
them that all those feelings of ittlistllosity and of estrangement
which hail in former time; ebteined existence had assed away. I
If he recollected right, the Noble Earl (Ninth) had said tliapt he( was the only Member qt:the House who was also a Member of the Church of
seetland. Now, lie (the Earl of Aberdeen) professed himself a Member
of that Church—nay, he had for many years held (Alice in that elnirch,
and he said it with the deepest resaeet for the church taf Valalantl. Ile I
undoubtedly did not prefer the church to wiaiatl 1,0";-ed from soy
examination of matters of doetti„. or or
it tenets were purely snd but believing that
-at:Tim:ll, and knowing that it was elthreli well
pNmote the welfare, the happioess, and good order of so_
calculated te
elaatita klt 1'443 seen no good reason fop the 'abandonment of the faith of
anCestors.—(lleari hew', beyr. He ußaftectedly regretted that

ea. _mt it was said, " Money is wanted, not to build new churcbca
—that would be unnecessary until the present churches were tilled—
alit in order to endow the ministers, that they may be able to let the
'eats more cheaply." The ministers said, "We have got persons in
nir parishes who cannot take seats, and we must diminish the price in
inter to induce the people to take them." He confessed that to his
Viscount Melbourne) a result of that description appeared to be very stn.
:et tain. The greatest proportion of 'inlet sittings was among these that
vere let at the lowest rate, and he doubted whether further endowt
I
nests would have the effect expected by the Noble 'Earl. But
,here was another point, with respect to the claim raade on behalf
,f these great towns for assistance, which alermed him considerably,
and which induced him to pause before lio embarked in a course the
end of which lie could not foresee, and of which he could not
foretel the consequences. His Noble Friend said, " You won't give
asssistance to Edinburgh or to Glasgow, and by parity of reasoning
you will not give it to Aberdeen, Dundee, Paisley, and the other great
towns of Scotland." Now, the Commissioners had gone through two of
ahe great towns of Scotland (Glasgow and Edinburgh), and there
had been shown, according to the Noble Earl, a great amount of reli-
gious destitution. Did their Lordships know the amount of destitution
of religious instruction in the Cities of. London and Westminster e--._
(Here the Noble Viscount read an extract from a report, the title of
which did not reach the gallery, front which it appeared that in thirty-
four parishes in London and Westminster, containing a poulan oC
1,137,000, there was only church accommodation for 101,(18p11)tio Et,
therefore, apprehended that the amount of destitution of religio'as In.
struction, and of the means of attending religious worship, were infinitely
greater in this metropolis than in any part of :Scotland. Nay, the two
cases were not to be compared or named in the same %,ay. What did
their LMdships suppose would be the case with the other great towns in
England and Scotland, into whose eoroisition they must necessarily enter,
if they once suffered a grant to be. made in this instance from the gene-
ral resources of the country instead of from the appropriate funds of
the Church itself, to "whiah—and he viewed it with wonder and
astonishment—the triendi of the Church of Scotland clung with
Wood:rant tenacity. " Let us," said they, " have it from the
s`onsolidated Fund, not from the Bishops' tehads ; tee would
rather not have it from that ; but let us once get our hands into
the pockets of the people of the country, and we shall have ample
means without diminishing our own resources." Now, there were, as
their Lordships well knew, many great and benevolent objects which
they all had in view, anti were all anxious, if possible, to accomplish.
There were many evils to remedy, many nuisances to lie done away,
many advantages to be gained by a liberal expenditure; but for which
they knew they must not appeal to the power and resources of the cots.
try. They must consider what was proper and what was possible te, he
done. If they were to be required to provide for the general education
of the people, for a system of prison discipline, and for
every sort of
purpose that might be devised for the benefit of the coutiOry, while, on
the other hand, no retrenchment was to be for a morneed admitted, how,
lie would ask, could such a magnitude of claims on the public be/net ? All
',vas to be expense—all was to he demand on the public ; while at the
same time there was the greatus, possible unwillingness to admit any-
thing like retrenchments fie apprehended that if he were to pro-
pose any addition to the public burdens for these various purposes,
anal especially to meet the claim on the part of the Church of Scot-
land, it would not be looked upon with any particular favour, or
submited to with very great patience. Their Lordships well knew that
the affairs of a country inua;t be conducted upon the same principles as
those of a private man. Doubtless there were many things very desir-
able to be obtained and done by a man in his private affoirs ; but he
knew well that if he borrowed money for the purpose of effecting those
changes and improvements which he desired, it 'might not turn out so
profitable as he expected, or, at all events, in sufficient time to pre-
vent his entire ruin. It was something
'like this in the affairs of a
country. It behoved them to consider not only what ought to be done,
not only
to what it was wise and eXpe•nent to do, but what it was possible
do. And among those elmjeuts which it was desirable to effect, they
must look to those first which were must immediate and most necessary
for the public benefit and advantages. When, too, he looked at the
amount of the expense which such grants as that now called for neces-
urily must induce, lie was unwilling, he was unprepared, to be the Mi.
Witter at present to embark in it, or at any time, without much further con-
aideration of the subject than had been yet given to it. The Noble Earl
had said that he had no objection to take the Bishops' teinds, but he
held that the Church had a claim upon the state to the amount which
it might require. He was ready to glee the Bishops' fiends, but he did
most distinctly and decisively, whatever might be the consequence,
deny the claim of the Church upon the State for whatever might be re-
quired. Whatever could be done should certainly be done with pru-
dence and wisdom. It was a great, useful, and salutary object, but at
the same time, he thought there was a disposition to pursue that object
'.with great recklessness, with great impudence, and in a manner they
would find to be moat dangerous and destructive. The Noble Viscount
then adverted to the argument used by the Earl of Aberdeen respect-
ing the operation of the Act of 1707, but he was for some time so
very imperfectly heard in the gallery, that we cannot pretend to give
even the purport of this part of the Noble Viscount's speech.
Whet, we next understood the Noble Viscount lie was arguing that
it was wise and prudent (now that their Lordships were wishing to
effect precisely the same objects that were intended to be effected
by the Act of 17(17) on them to look back to that Act, and
consider whether, consistently with the original intention of the
L^gislature, the machinery of that Act might not be found more effi-
cient for effecting the great object which they were all desirous, if pos-
sible, should be effected, and which it was the intention and object of all
their Lordships to effect, than any other course that might be sug.
gested. This, it appeared to him, was the natural, th.e wise, and the
prudent course they were bound to pursue. Unquestionably if this could
be effected, everybody would agree that it ought to be done from the
resources of the Church of Scotland itself; everybody would agree that
the rengious wants of Scotland should be provided Inc by Scotland itself.
It wag better, much more wise, much more prudent, that this should be,
than that they should rashly and imprudently plunge themselves into a
course by which a great charge and burden would be unposed on the
country for providing Church accommodation, which would no doubt
begin small at first, but would necessarily increase, and become a most
onerous impost on the general resources of the country.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY had heard with considerable
surprise the answer given by the Noble Viscount to the clear and abl•,.
speech of his Noble Friend on the opposite bench. He thou eat that
the perusal of the report of the Commissioners would have
time Noble Viscount that there was a large number of the *
inhabitants of
convinced
Glasgow and Edinburgh who were totally destitute o
religious instruction or pastoral superintendence.—(neae)
f. the advantage of
The Com-
missioners seemed to have pursued their ine,diey
deity. He never saw a document which stated with more minuteness
with the utmost assi-
and particularity what they had been 'a'-eputed to inquire into. It ap.
neared that the Clergy of the Churcla of Scotland condemned the system
of free sittings. What they wonted Was not congregations, but they
wanted a territorial arrangement, the same as were in this country called
parishes. What they wishcal was to have a certain congregation,
over whom they might exercise a wholesome influence--that they
might go to their homes and talk to them, and point out the
ingiCa.:l-4tlian to
evile that would result to them from the neglect of their reli.
gents duties, and to admonish them with respect to habits of intent.
perance and idlences. The Neile Viscount, after denying the
existenoa of the alleged wants, proceeded to express the grounds on
which he reinsed to supply those wants. Instead of answering the speech of the Noble Earl, the Noble Lord contended that If he mode
a grant to the Church of Scotland, the Church of England Vionld
oawlinlarneeTutr:eusl).l He (the
w likewiseaa nothingsk l‘stvm assistanceri,ieh
ti,the
c i rrt,
hofoftl)
England
it:got:I:nod? i (di aetie,rdeeFattien(di .
here anything to do with the Consolidated Fund. The Neole,iVy
iinscgotz
~,w„aus, t thes
°l. personth,the
who Church
ohimselffg l
ahnidid
frpornoipolsiete:
'archbishop of Caro.Orbuly) :admitted, that the want of religious acco.
liwtialioll in the Church of ramgland far exceeded the wants of the
ould also emne to ask
`fora grant of money I
had the Noble iscount so soon ceaseei i
ch,„..ci,
of scomna. The eloble Viscount went further, and said that `,7
f a surPlos ?—alear.) lie thought if a surplus existed it
to talk o
to be applied to satisfy the want of religious accorrano.
ought
dation. While the Ministry
fil,mre
tChheusraernli
oo fp
ulrriti.,,l.sueld u‘a
vh
~ t ,
were adequate to the spiritual
wants of the population of Scotland, that country was deservedly celebrated for the good miler and the economy ''
with which the :
affairs of the Church were eolith-acted, The population hadi how)

T

veer, increased three-fold without any increase having been made
In the number of the clergy, and what was the consequence? Why,
that there was a general want of church accommodation. In both Edin-
burgh and Glasgow churches had been erected by public subscription,
and others would be built by the same means, if there were any endow.
enenta for the ministers independently ofpeweates. The additional sup.
port that the clergy required was very moderate, and as this was claimed
for the benefit of the poor, he hoped it would be afforded by her Ma-
jesty's Government —(Hear, hear.) He would appeal to the good sense
of the Noble Viscount at the head of the Government, whether his ar-
gument on this head was a tenable one? A complete case of destitution
bad been made out, and if timely assistance were given, and a proper
geosedy applied it would be beneficial to a high degree to the spiritual
interests, the morals, and happinessof the great mass of the populetion
of the great towns, who were most liable to temptations, and out of
The reach of those securities which the rural population had for keeping
Cisme right. There was no check on the behaviour of the pop
of ulation
:,iwns, because they were not under the inspection of the higher
classes s-C society There was no check on their intemperance save
want of m0..41. aM teeing in extreme indigence ; the despair which
"ea led to intemperance and immorality of all kinds.
necessity prodi., '
pastoral ie'eaSuction, saerefore, it was impossible that they
Without
could be brought back ." ttw right .nth.--(Cries of " Hear.") At
" of
Leith water, within the confir... .Earristerels, there was a population
sat W the teestahlished Church and
of 1,400. Of these ninety belone
- set to tbe feat,, a seppeared that
seventy were Dissenters ; but, with rest., way plane eef-worship) a All•
they had not been in the habit of attending a. a t there,
Since, however, the report was made, a Church ha.. -• ea, woe giow
and he was happy to be able to inform their Lordships the - sewn&
frequented by those who had not been in the habit of previously
ing any religious assembly. If fresh Churches were erected in oth, .
places where they were wanted, he had no doubt that similar results
would follow ; and, by making small endowments for the Ministers, the
new Churches would, he was convinced, pave the way for removing al-
together the present faulty system, which pressed so hardly on the poor,
more especially of great cities.—(Hear, hear.) In the cities and towns
of Scotland a strong religious feeling existed. They contained numerous
charities for the benefit of the people and the maintenance of schools for
the education of the poor—charities which did honour to the
populations where they existed, and such as were to be found in
every part of this island. But the teachers in those institutions
had not the same weight that regularly educated Ministers wo
and.uld
have, but this was not the fault of the Clergy tl
He was sorry to say that of late a strong feeling had grown
tip in Scotland against the Established Church, and that per.
sons in that country had avowed themselves desirous of subverting that
Church from whom he at least never expected such hostility. It was
contrary to their own former opinions, to the general understanding, and
to the feelings 'hat ought to unite Christians one with another ; but
still he regretted to sea, that influential persons were to be found who did
not hesitate to declare the'r conviction that the only supplies which the
Established Church ought to receive should depend w
hollyhy o
re the volu
he
n-
tary benevolence of individuals. When he made t bsvations
was merely citing the language of a distinguished theologician, one of
those Dissenters who had given evidence before the Commission. The
Established Church was cried down merely because it was an establish-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships should recollect that it was an
establishment secured by the solemn Act of Union between the two
countries. By that Act it was declared that the Church government
and discipline should be established for ever, and that there should be
no other Church government but this lu Scotland. The Sovereign, too,
was required to take a peculiar oath to maintain the Protestant ehtsfeh
of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the engagement which
the Sovereign entered into at her accession to the throne on this sub.
Ject he thought it a matter well deserving the consideration of the
Noble Viscount at the head of the Government. If the
Established Church of Scotland were to exist at all—if it were not to be
abandoned—ought it not to be enabled to discharge the duties fore were
r which
it was originally instituted ?—(Hear.) True it was that the
some slight differences between the doctrines of the Protesi.nnts and
Dissenters of Scotland. As far as the doctrines of the Dissenters Went
he was willing to admit that they were useful, but he would appeal
without hesitation to their own experience, whether they were perfectly
satisfied with the operation of the voluntary system in their own case ?
There was a large proportion of the people of Scotland who never went
to any place of public worship, and a more decisive argument he could
not well conceive against the voluntary system than the state of religi-
ous destitution which prevailed in Edinburgh and Glasgow.—(Hear )
It might he knew be said, and such an argument had tie believed been
used, that they ought not to show more partiality to the Established
Church than to any other religious persuasion. Now he could not un-
derstand the meaning of an Established Church, except it was that
Church which the nation preferred, and which they considered as the
safest and best, as well as the purest vehicle for the conveyance ofspiritual
instruction, the promulgation of religious ordinances among the people;
and therefore it seemed to him a great inconsistency, to say the least of it, for
the State to withhold from that Church support merely for the purpose of
conciliating those who thought proper to dissedt from it. There was
another point which he wished to put to the Dissenters, and that was
whether it was consistent with a truly Christian spirit to sacrifice the
interests of religion to what he must be allowed to call the interests of a
sect.—;Hear, hear.) The Established Church was instituted solely for
the good of the people, and it must always stand on the basis of sound
religion. He was willing to give the Dissenters full credit for all that
they had done, and desired that they should have the fullest possible
toleration ; but while he said this he thought the Established Church
was entitled to be supported by the country, and that its Ministers had
in no way forfeited their claim to the confidence and favour of the State.
—(Hear, hear.) Their conduct was in every point of view exemplary.
Not only were they well versed in divinity, and men of good character,
but they were attentive to their duties, regular in their ministrations,
and of unwearied diligence in their teachings. Many of them were men
who had earned high eminence for themselves, and had rendered
the greatest benefit to the community at large, by promoting that
religion and morality, without which no country could be
either tranquil, happy, or prosperous.—(Hear, hear.) The only
ground of objection urged by the Noble Viscount to the demand now
made on the Government was the expense. The expense ought not to
weigh in a matter of such vital importance; but, at all events, in large
towns it would be extremely moderate, and as it would make so ample
a return in protecting the happiness of the people, and surpressing vice,
it ought not to be regarded for a single moment.—)Hear, hear.) It
pogOt to be the object of every government to suppress, as far aspossible,
intemperance and other misconduct, which led to misery and crime.
These weresources of great expense to the country, and as they would
be best prevented by increasing the moral and religious feelings of
the people, he thought this was an additional reason why the grant now
asked should not be withheld.—(Hear, hear.) Upon these coiialderations
lie wished that the Noble Viscount would reconsider his resolutions,
an d act on the principles which had determined the Government in is-
suing the commis:ion for inquiry into the state of religious destitution
in Scotland.—Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ROSEBERY rose chiefly to remove the misconception
introduced into the debate, and to reduce the exaggeration of those
who, in that and the other House of Parliament, had taken part in
the discussions with respect to the propriety of granting additional en-
dowments to the Scottish Clergy. If he thought such a grant would pro.
duce any greater moral and religious good he would have been as ready
to support it as any Noble Lord in that House. The great majority of
the people of Scotland, not merely Dissenters, but persona warmly at-
tached to the Established Church, were against the proposition of the
Noble Earl (Aberdeen) opposite. Not long ago a large meeting was
held in a borough in Scotland against the proposed grant, and when he
steted to their Lordships that the chairman on that occasion was an elder
untie Church he thought they ought to bee nvinced that the opposition to
the grant was not confined to the seceders from the Established Church of
Scotland. In several parishes the proprietors were bound to take care that
in building churches accommodation was provided for 44 per cent. of
the pop' lation ; and he asserted that in both Edinburgh and Glasgow
the church accommodation would be found to exceed this amount. In
Edinburgh there were 44,000 persons in connection with the Esta-
blished Church, and accommodation fur 39,000, while in Glasgow, out
of a population of 95,000 there were sittings for 65,000. The de.
ficieney, therefore, in Edinburgh was 5,000, and in Glasgow 10,000.
Their Lordships had heard a good deal of the spoliation of Church pro-
perty ; but he begged to ask them what was the effect of the Act of
1707? That Act not only made provision for the division of parishes,
but declared that some part of the unexhausted tithes should be applied
fur the support of' the Clergy. This was a subject which could not be
approached by party prejudice. Their object should be not to obtain a
mere party triumph, but to uphold the Church intablisisment.—(Hear.
The Earl of HADDINGTON was no partisan. The Noble Vis-
count at the head of the Government had mistaken what had fallen from
his (Earl Fladdington's) Noble Friend. What his Noble Friend had said
was, that the Church of Scotland had not taken the question up in the
first instance as a party question. This was evident from the statements
of Dr. Chalmers and others, all of whom declared that the state of reli-
gious destitution of Edinburgh and Glasgow loudly called for it. When
the application on the subject was first made to the Government those
who had the interview with the Ministers of the Crown returned per.
fectly satisfied with what they promised. It was a little too much, how.
ever, that the Clergy should be abused and browbeaten in every possible
way. The Noble Viscount at the head of the Government had said some-
thing about a modification of the grant, but it was only calculated to
throw more obscurity on the question. Did the Noble Viscount mean
that her Majesty's Government would reconsider their opinion ?
Viscount MELBOURNE—No, no.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said the Noble Viscount said it was
not the intention of the Government to reconsider their opinion, and he
(the Earl of Haddington) wished that the Protestants and Clergy of
Scotland would understand that this was the case.—(Hear, hear.) He
was far from denying that there was a grant want of spiritual assistance
in the rural parishes, but he at the same time thought that the destitu-
tion there was as nothing in importance when compared with the desti-
tign existing in the great towns. He denied that dissent was any aqui.
volent for the want of sufficient means of religious instruction in the
Established Church. They had guaranteed the permanency of the doc-
trines taught by that Church, and it was therefore imperative to give
the Establishmrnt all the support which it required.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no stability about dissent, and could it, he asked, be denied
that the chapels of the old English Presbyterians were now occupied by
Sociiiians ? This be thought would show the necessity which was im-
posed on the Government to secure to the Church a proper mainte-
nance.—(Hear, hear.) It was well known that if aid were granted
to the Scotch Church they would provide a sufficient supply of
religious instruction for the poor. Take the Synod, and the general
body of the Scotch Church, and he would undertake to say there was no
part of that Church that did not pray to the Government to give them
the requisite aid. But the fact unfortunately was, that her Majesty's
Ministers were supported in Scotland, as they were in England and in
Ireland, by those who were not friendly to the Church—(Hear)—and
these persons they dared not disoblige or oppose.—(Hear.) It was by
means of the Dissenters of Scotland, that the boroughs of that country
had at the last election declared in favour of her Majesty's Ministers,
and this pressure from without was all-powerful upon them, and they
Blared not resist or disoblige the party which caused it.
The Feel of MI NTO referred to a series of figures, as given in the
Report of the Scotch Church Commissioners, to show that in Edinburgh
the aenount of church accommodation extended to 39i per cent. on the
whole of the population, and at Glasgow to nearly 40 per cent., being
very little short of what was considered a fair legal supply of such ac-
commodation, vit., 444 per cent. This being compared with the want
of church accommthiation which had been proved to exist in the
metropolis of England end its suburbs, gave a very large snajo.
rity in favour of Scotland. With respect to the Act of 1707, it
was nothing more than a mere transfer of the jurisdiction, and
its only object was to create a means to carry out the:principle that tiends
should in all cases be maintained for the use of the Church ; and, when
parishes were too extensive, that they should he broken up and divided.
If, then, the machinery of that Act Wera found insuffieent to carry out
this principle, Parliament ought not to Le hampered in its endeavours
to amend that machinery. The Noble Lord concluded by saying that
at that late hour he should not trouble their Lordship.) by entering snore
fully into the subject.
:Die Earl of II A DDINGTON said a few wards in explanation, and
could assure the Noble Earl, that notwithstanding his calculation, there
were in Glasgow alone 18,000 persons who had no Church accommoda.
tion wbatever.—(Hear.)
The Bishop of LONDON said that it was true that, compared with
the want of Church accommodation in London and other parts of thi.
country, destitution in that particular might not appear so very great
in Scotland ; yet it was nevertheless far too great, and required an effi-
cient remedy.—(Hear.) The most important feature of the case, how.
rel.. Wu, that the additional grant required for the Church of Scot-
and, was for the purpose of affording a aufficienreligious t instruc-
tion'nufor the poor of that country.—(Hear, hear, heas9 The very mi.
im
Taa Church accommodation it was always consideo4 914 ht
to be fifty per c.nt. upon the pop's' lation ; and he did not think else
people of Scotland were at all exorbitant in asking sixty per cent. in the
present case.—(Hear,,
hear.) At all events, if sittings to the amount
of fifty per cent. were
provid
ed they would be wee of being occupied
to that extent, which would
ba
speak upon this question without irJa pot
o great object gained. Ha zo
cern with which he had heard the expressing the great regret and CAA
:.
Majesty's Government, state that Noble Viscount at the head of her
he protested against its being consi.

dered the duty of the Government to provide additional accommodation
for the Church of Scotland.—(Hear, hear.)
Viscount MELBOURNE interrupted the Right Rev. Prelate, and
said that what he had objected to was -the Church assuming the right to
demand such addition from the Government —(Hean)
The Bishop of LONDON replied that, in his opinion, the" duty topro.
vide" arei the "right to demand" were co-ordinate terms.—(Cheers.)
Now le: (the Bishop of London) protested against this doctrine of the
Noble Viscount.—(Hear, hear.) It was the duty of the Government in
any country where an Established Church existed to give it every pos-
sible assistance to enable it to answer its end and object. It was ene of
the most important duties that any Administration could have to perform; ,
it was its duty to be beforehand with religious instruction, and that
not only on religious, but even political grounds ; for it would be found
in the end to be the readiest and the cheapest way of avoiding the ex.
tension of a preventive police.—(Hear, hear.) He entered h protest
against the Noble Viscount questioning the propriety of what the Church
called pastoral and parochial instruction and visitation. What other
sett of instruction would the Noble Viscount have established?—
(Hear, hear.) It was the very principle of their common Church ; and
as to what had been said of the intrusion of Ministers of the Gospel
into the privacy of domestic life it was the great protection
poor—the only check that could be placed upon the vices of the rich,
and one of the surest foundations of sound morals and religion.—(Loud
cheers.) He was sure that the Noble Viscount had too much
good sense—toe much sagacity—not to see that if the Clergy were
useful at all they were so more especially with reference to the manner
in which they discharged their domestic duties.—(Hear, hear.)
N.ot pply the Church of Scotland, but the Church of England as
well, ,o.wed deep debt of gratitude to the two Noble Lords oppo-
site tiabettlieco ,atad Had4inc,ton) for their sentiments that night, for they
" ^4 laid down peincipses ahast Rises equally applicable to both those
• —(Hear, bstaa.) Theaeava4 atißorse tether point to which he
countrie.. ' a with regard to 'bat bad fallen frprat the q'oble Vise
wished to rele. The Noble visgount ap,cl tilt 1:501.0 Pai peaf
count (Melbourne). .. -wt their apposition to remedy thii ip.
him (Minto) appeared to . " -.ion on the fstiAr; they seem to en.
creased want of church accommodaa urecedent—(ii4efi
tertain of the danger of establishing that, if the Legasta.
but he (the Bishop of London) was convinca-
;tell of liberality
ture of this country were ever to arrive at such a
need
as would induce them to grant the assistance now required,
not fear that any danger would ever arise out of it.—(Hcar, hear.)
There was no other way of applying a remedy to the state of spiritual
destitution prevailing in Scotland, except by a Government grant, and
that grant, under such circumstances, the Government was bound
to make. The grant of 130,0001. a year, would do much towards
supplying what was requisite in point of accommodation and in-
struction by the encouragement it would hold out to others to contribute
liberally towards such objects out of their own resources.—(Hear, hear.)
Was Parliament to do nothing to promote these objects, merely because
it was afraid that at the end of half a century a demand might be made
upon it which it might chance to be unable to meet ?—(Hear, hear.)
This was, indeed, a most important and engrossing subject, and he
• hoped and scarcely doubted that the generous feelings of the Noble Via.
count would yet get the better of him, and induce him to listen to a call
by responding to which he would not only promote the moral and r
eli.
glens welfare of the country, but rally more of its affections round her
Majesty's Government.—(Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate concluded
by expressing his hearty concurrence in all the observations which had
fallen from his Most Rev. Friend with reference to the feelings of the
Church of this country towards that of Scotland.
The Earl of MINTO explained.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that it Ares impossible he could
suffer this subject to pass without offering a few observations upon it.
It appeared to him clear, after the discussion that had taken place on
this subject, with respect to Canada and Malta, that it was not the policy
of her Majesty's Government to encourage Established Churches in those
Parts of the country. He was afraid too, from what had passed in that
Howse a.nil in another place, that the Church was not encouraged as it
should be is this Country, and when he recollected what had passed with.
in the last few years, he might truly say that the Church of Ireland was
not encouraged. So far flfsleotald say, that it appeared to him that it was
not the policy of her Majestre QPYPIMMent to encourage the Estab-
lished Chu:
ch. This he looked upon as e. Serious alteration in the fun.
damental princtpLe of the Government of this cooetr-
f, which was much
to be lamented for the ,sake of religion and good older. The Church
of Scotland was one abort ail others the least calculated to elteite
any jealousy with the Government, for it was the hardest working
Church, and the one which produced what Lord Liverpool had called
the best condition of any country in Europe, Cr any part other Ma.
jesty's dominions. According to the reports that had Peen made, it was
evident there was a great want of religious instruction ie evond.
But the Noble Viscount opposite said that if the demands of the aural,
of Scotland were conceded, similar &mantle would be made from other
parts. But if the Government gave way upon this, It would not be doing
more than had been done before. Had not grants been frequently made
to the Church of England in this country ? There cert4nle lug) not
been any to the Church of Ireland because there a surplus was aliegej
to exist. The Government ought to listen to the appeal which bad been
made to them by the Assembly of the Church of Scotland, who engaged
to establish for the Queen's subjects in teethe country religious instil*
tiers, good order, and morality. Threle wr rewards promised frau*
the small grants that had been asked tor. Apinst this grant the
ile!' Noble
Viscount had given no reason except the expense, gied that sim appli-
cations would be made from other places. But the hap),ted f nd Of
o
which the Noble Viscount spoke might be sufficient; and why, ahem
(ore, deny the principle ? Nothing could give him greater satisfaCtiOrt
than to see the Government encourage the Established Church, and he
believed the first and best step towards doing so would he the adoption
of the course he suggested.
The Earl of ABERDERtI, in reply, said that the Noble Vise.ount
at the head of the Government had keen guilty of a direct breach
of faith with the people of Scotland upor# this gobject by now refus.
ing to them what the Government had on a folTsief OGelsiOn distinctly
promised.
Viscount MELBOURNE denied in the strongest terms that one gentle,
man could deny to another that he had been guilty of any breach of faith,
or that he had made or entered into any promise or engagement on the
subject, and he denied that any one had a right to deduce such an in-
ference from any thing he had ever said.
The Earl of ABERDEEN repeated that, looking at the matter in an
equitable point of view, the appointment of the Commission, and the
declarations of members of the Government, of which the Noble Viscount
was the head, elsewhere, there was a decided breach of faith ; un.
less, perhaps, the whole proceeding of the Government was meant
to be a deception on Scotland. The existence of the evil complained
of was not denied by the• Noble Viscount, and without such denial,
he repeated, that a breach of faith must have been committed by the
Government.
After a few words in explanation from the earl of MINTO, the re
turns were agreed to.
On the motion of the Bishop of LONDON a Bill to prevent parish
vestries being held in churches was read a first time.
NEW ZEALAND.
The Eari of DEVON moved for a Committee to inquire into the
present state cf New Zealand and its population.
The Duke of RICHMOND hoped the appointment of this Committee
was not intended to forward the views of private speculation, as he
understood there was a Joint-Stock Company relating to New Zealand.
The Earl of DEVON knew of no Joint-Stock Company respecting
New Zealand, and he thought his Noble Friend might have given skeins
credit for moving the Committee on public rattier than on private
grounds. He intended to bring in a Bill on the subject, when he
would explain his views more fully. It was chiefly the benefit of the
British population in New Zealand whose interests he looked to.
Lord GLENELO said that he would look at any Bill brought in on
this subject without prejudice, and give it his best consideration. He
thought the time was come when the interests of the British population
in New Zealand ought to be seriously looked at by the Government.
The motion for the Committee was then agreed to.
The Marine Mutiny Bill went through a Committee, and was ordered
to be read a third time on Monday.
The First Feuits Bill was reads second time.—Adjourned.

THE SXI.4, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 31, 1.838.

Mr. WAL KE R presented a petition from Sussex
in favour of the Poor Laws.
NEGRO SLAVERY.
Mr. PEASE presented petitions from Stourbridge, King's
Norton, and a great many other places against slavery.
Mr. BROT HE RTON presented similar petitions from
Salford and other parts of Lancashire.
Mr. BAINES presented similar petitions from Slaney
Bridge, and sever al other places.
Mr. L. WHITE presented similar petitions from Bic ming.
ham. Similar petitions were also presented from Warwick,
Winchester, and Sligo.
Sir CHARLES STYLE presented a petition from 145
shipowners cf Scarborough, against the duty on Marine In-
surance.
Mr. GILLON presented a petition, agreed to at a public
meeting of the citizens of Edinburgh, where the reso-
lutions were passed unanimously, against all further
grants or endowments to the Chureh Of Scotland ; also
petitions to the gime effect from Airdrie, Linlithgow,
the Reform Society of Paisley, the inhabitalits of Hamilton,
Kilwiening, Lanark, zed Glasgow, to the number of 45, with
signatures to the amount of 26,000. The Hon, Member
concluded by stating that he cordially concurred in the prayer
of the petitions.
Sir G. STRICKLAND denied the allegations in the pe-
tition made against the Church of Scotland.
Mr. 0. GORE gave notice that after the holidays he
should move for a return of the expenses incurred by altering
Turnpike Acts for England and Wales, for 1820 to the
present time.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
Mr. W Lit C E presented several petitions against farther
endowment of the gstaWislied Church of Scotland.
Mr. GROTE presented similar petitions from Camden
Tewo, end, (as we understood), from Mr.,Benjamin Well*, of
Camberwell.
NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP,
Mr. HARVEY presented petitions from Colchester, aid
rer the abolition of negro apprenticeship.
other place).
Colonel CONOLLY presentel a petithen Aron paTO
NATIONAL ED-u-C.^.T.i9N-(,1 ,
in the county of Westmeath, against the present system a
National Education in Ireland.
CHURCH PROPERTY.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition complaining
of the alienation of Church property, and in favour of the
re-appointment of the Church LeaseßY.s Committee.
Mr. P END ARVE S presented several petitions from Corn-
wall, for the abolition of Negro Apprenticeship.
Dr. LUSH INGTON presented 43 petitions to the same
effect.
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND presented twenty-five
petitions to the same effect.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Sir A. CLIFFORD, the Usher of the Black Rod, appeared
at the table and summoned the House to the House of Peers,
to hear the Royal assent given by Commission to several Bills.
The Speaker, attended by, several Hon. Members, accord-
ingly went to the House of Lords.
On his return to the House, the SPEAKER acquainted
the House that he had been to the House of Lords, and had
heard the Royal Assent given to several Bills.—(For which
see Lords' report.)
Mr. SANFORD brought up the Report of the Select
Committee on Pensions.
Petitions in favour of the abolition of negro apprenticeship,
were presented by Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Pusey, and several other
Hon. Members.
LORD GOSFORD'S MISSION.
Mr. CHALMERS, seeing the Hon. Member the Under-
Secretary for the Colonies in his place, wished to know from
him whether he bad any objection to furnish a return of the
whole expenses of Lord Gosford's mission to Canada.
Sir G. GREY was understood to say that he had no ob-
je_etion to furnish the returns asked for by the Hon. Member.
NEGRO APPRENTICESHIP—ADJOURNED DE-
BATE.
The Order of the Day having been read,
Mr. W. JAMES congratulated her Majesty's Government
upon haying so able a coadjutor as the Secretary for the
Colonies, tSlip eoecluded the debate last night on this most
important and interesting subject, In the course of that
able, eloquent, and forcible address, the Honourable Mem-
ber alluded to the pressure from without—the pressure
from constituencies on their representatives ; and he ( Mr. .J.)
Agreed with him that it had been unfairly exercised in many
iestences but that did not apply as regards himself, for he
had only had one letter from his constituents on the subject,
and he believed the people of Cumberland took less interest
in the question than any other part of the kingdom, for only
four or five petitions bad been presented on the subject. As he
( Mr, J.) happened to possess an interest in the question, being
the proprietor of an extensive estate in Jamaica, he trusted the
House would extend its courtesy to him for a few minutes, as
he was not in the habit o mating .ong speeches and troubling
them very often. He begged to tender his acknowledgments
to the country for the donation of 4,0001. or 5,0001., which he
had received as compensation money for the loss of pro-
perty, or perhaps he should say the anticipated injury
to the property, which had cost his family somewhere about
ten times that amount. Much had been said about the
20,000,0001., which it. was alleged the people of England
had been swindled out of—the people of England had
given that of their own free will to establish a great
principle ; but it was a great mistake to suppose that it would
afford anything like an adequate compensation to the owners
of slaves, if the Negroes should refuse to cultivate the soil under
the free system, as was supposed by many persons would be the
case in the island of Jamaica. When that money was granted,
it certainly was a part of the bargain that the compulsory
service); of the negroes should cease at the expiration
of seven years. The object of his Honourable Friend the
Member for Yorkshire was to shorten that period by two years.
a
He (Mr. J.) had given the subject his most earnest and anxious
and dispassionate consideration, and he bad no hesi-
tation now in declaring that, under all the circumstances, he
thought it would be hest at once to emancipate the slaves and
give them unqualified freedom.—( Loud cheers.) That
would be better than keeping them in a continued state of
ex-
citement; and upon that point he differed from H,
Bart. (the Under-Secretary for the Colonies), for a space of
two years to come. He therefore should support the
original motion—( Hear, hear, bear)...-but
in doing so
wished to guard himself against being considered as pursuing
that course from any desire to court popularity, or with the
view of being thought to possess finer feelings of
humanity
than his neighbours. He thought that the immediate emanci-
pation of the negroes, besides being, as it was contended, their
right, would be advantageous also to the planters.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed it would enable themto discharge
from their properties all the idle, disorderly, and ill-
conditioned persons, and relieve hem from the main.
Where the
tenance of weakly and impotent hands.
the Planter was a kind and indulgent master, he would find no
difficulty in cultivating his estates, because many persons would
.be glad to serve him instead of an oppressive task-master.
The chief fear he had for the success of the scheme for the
immediate emancipation, arose from reflecting upon the
wretched condition in which many of those persons would
find themselves placed. He supposed it was the intention
of the Honourable Baronet, the Member for Yorkshire,
if this resolution were carried, to bring in a Bill similar
to that alluded to by Lord Brougham in another place.
He thought that measure would not answer its purpose,
unless there was some vagrant clause, or something of
the nature of a Poor-law introduced. There was undoubtedly
a most easy mode of getting rid of the complaints oft be negroes
by the enforcing upon those individuals who had pressed their
claims so strongly upon the Legislature. A small mite from
each of the British Ladies who had so meritoriously taken up
the cause of the negroes, to their honour be said it,
would go far to do all that was required to get rid of the
difficulties under which the negroes laboured, and would add
greatly to their beneficent design.—( Cheers.) As a West
India planter, he had exerted his interest on behalf of the slaves
in the Colonies, but he had always thought, and did so still, that
there was, and had been in England, labourers in a far more
miserable condition than the negroes. ( Loud cheers.)
Look to the Irish labourers, and to the hand-loom weavers.
—(Great cheering.) Talk about the negroes being chained
to their work—why the hand-loom weavers of this country
were chained to their looms, no., for 46 hours in a week, but for
90.—( Cheers.) They had far worse food than the negro i
his friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had
adverted last night to the food of the negro; why
the hand-loom weavers would get fat upon such
food.—( Cheers.) So likewise with respect to the places
in which they lived—the place appropriated to the negro was
a palace compared with that devoted t 6 the hand-loom weaver.
He was satisfied that immediate emancipation would do no in-
jury to the planter who had behaved with humanity and kind-
ness. Neither did he think it would cause any injury to the
negro ; it would, on the contrary, in his opinion, prove
beneficial to all those who were orderly, and had be-
haved themselves. Anxious as he had always been that
the great measure of the abolition of slavery should be
carried out fully, he would give his cordial support to the
original motion, which had been introduced by his Hon. Friend
the Member for Yorkshire—(Cheers)—because he entertained
none of those fc;ira which had been expressed by the Hon. Under
Secretary for the Colonies, He thought the measure could be
carried out with perfect safety, and that the Negro was now as fi
to receive his liberty as he would be in two years hence.
Sir E. SUGD EN ruse so early because he was anxious to
state the reasons which influenced his vote upon the question,
before any heat had arisen in the debate. Still, early as it
was, considering the vast importance of the subject, he was
surprised that there were none of her Majesty's Ministers in
places,,ti—at(t—ilhee;r: hear.) He had a right to expect, at
all should have been in some measure repre-
sented.--
Hear, hear.) was anxious to state his reasons,
their
events
er
because he had the misfortune to differ from his constituents
on the question. They had requested him to support the
petition they Lad sent up, praying for the immediate
emancipation of the apprentice, which he did not feel
that lie could do. The enieatione were very simple ones,
though much difficulty might be eaperienced in the consi-
deration of them. The first question was whether there
was any thing in the Act of 1833 which prevented that
House from interfering either in favour of the Bill, or the
more extended proposition of the lien.
Dart!, the Member for
Yorkshire. Then, if the House were not so pretested, the
next question which arose was, had the case now, arisen whictt
rendered that interference proper on the part of the
House? Then, again, if these questions were to be answered
the affirmative, what was the remedy to be applied to the
abuse? it was true ihat in the Act there was not one word
e sne4rr:
to be found WhisciL set ot4 tae exisi.eticq - - •
He undersaod the s ta t
Hop. fiaronet tne
.pnuer ecraary to
stated that when this moasige wgs mireticed the Noble
eve
Lord in 1833, it was expressly stated to the HOuse wad the
country, that this was a contract between the nation on the
one hand, and the owners of West India slaves on the other ;