The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-10 00:00:00

with the amount of rent, because at first sight it seemed 0
unfair and unequal to take it calculated upon the produce.
However, on considering the justice of making that change
now, I was struck with a difficulty which I could not overcome.
I could not see the justice of considering what a matt
had to pay for a farm, without taking into consideration also
the nature of it. Let me suppose the rent of two farms
equal; but the one tenant lays out a vast deal more of capital
upon his farm than the other—the one will have a
much greater produce than the other—yet upon that plan—
upon the principle of Lord Althorp's Bill—they would have to
pay equally as much of tithe, for the rent would be the same. If
you were to take that plan now, you would do evident injus-
tice to that man who had been the most liberal in the out-
lay of his capital, and who got the greatest produce.
Sir, after considering the difficulties in the various plans, the
Right lion. Gentleman last year declared his opinion in favour
of voluntary commutation. lat the time expressed my disappro-
bation of the principle, knowing the difficulty of carrying it
into effect.—( Hear, hear.) But if the House should be of
opinion that the plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman
was preferable, why then let it be adopted ; but as I am
anxious that the present system should undergo as speedy an
alteration as possible, I trust that the House will not allow
this Session of Parliament to pass without bringing the
question to a satisfactory settlement.—( Cries of " Hear,
hear.") I will now state the principle upon which
which my plan is founded. The principal object will be, in
the first place, to create as little disturbance in existing inte-
rests as it is possible to do, and to endeavour to effect a
uniformity throughout the entire kingdom in the mode
of collecting, and in the value of tithes.—( Hear, hear,
hear.) By the present system it is notorious that some
parishes pay a considerable higher amount of tithe than those
in the adjoining ones. My object will therefore be to do away
with the inequalities of the existing system. Sir, I propose
in the first place that a Board of three Commissioners be ap-
pointed, two to be nominated by the Crown, and one by the
Archbishop of Canterbury. I propose, in the next place, that
it shall be competent for the owners of 1-4th value of tithes
to cause a meeting of a parish for the purpose of entering
ink, an agreement With three-fourths of the owners of
land : and in case that any persons should appeal against
the decision of this meeting, it will be still binding
on those who do not appeal.—( Hear, hear.) I further
propose that the landowner, as Lord Althorp's plan recom-
mended, should stand in the shoes of the tithe owner, and that
the tithe-owner should in future be exempt from any
interference in the collection of tithes.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
I propose, if at the end of a short period—the time men-
tioned in the Bill is six months—to that time, however, I do not
intend to confine the House—but if at the end of six mouths no
such agreement should be made, then I propose that any land-
owner or titheowncr may ask the Commissioners to have
a general award upon the tithe of the parish. The
assistant-commissioner having then proceeded to the pa-
rish, he shall examine what has been the tithe or
the composition of tithe, and the charges of collection,
and so on, during seven years—that he shall then declare the
amount so paid during seven years, which shall be, as I shall
afterwards explain, represented by a certain quantity of
wheat or barley—but I do not propose that this declaration
shall be absolutely binding—( Hear, hear,)—either upon
the tithe-owner or the landowner. I think it must be ad-
visable to avoid that which would lead to exorbitancy on the
one hand, or ruin of the clergyman on the other. I shall
therefore propose that if any person shall appeal on the ground
of tithe taken or composition during seven years, does not
fairly represent the value of the tithes, then the com-
missioners so called on, shall make an estimate and re-
gular valuation of tithes for that seven years—( Hear)._
and if it shall really appear that the sum taken during the
seven years shall exceed 75 per cent. of that course of value,
that then the tithe to be taken in lieu by decision of the Com-
missioners shall amount to 75 per cent. and no more. If it
shall appear that the sums taken during the seven years shall be
less than 60 per cent. of the value of the tithe, then the
Commissioners shall raise it, and declare that the proper
amount of tithes. I mention these numbers as those agreed to
by us upon enquiry—but I do not make them absolute.
I am still willing to alter them, but they will serve as an
illustration of what I propose—that in no case where the
amount of the tithe exceeds a certain per-cesitage,
shall that certain per-tentage fall below a certain value.
Sir, I propose to give the Commissioners the power of taking
the average value of hop cultivation in certain districts of
seven years, and that they should fix that as the sum for that
district. I shall propose that the Commissioners at the same
time shall have the power in these districts of declaring what
the tithe of any particular land or property should be, supposing
hop cultivation has been intended, and likewise that where
land is cultivated for hops, it should be subject to an additional
payment of 15s. per acre. This is inconsistent with the
other provisions of the Bill ; but from representations made to
me, from those who are interested in the hop cultivation, I
believe it would be very injurious to them if they should continue
to pay the price of hops after they have ceased to cultivate them.
With respect to gardens, they come under a particular descrip-
tion, and I own I have not been able to satisfy my mind with
any provisions that can be proposed with respect to them.
With respect to the future payment, I propose that the aver-
rage of seven years of wheat, barley, and oats be published by
the comptroller of the corn returns at certain{ eriods ; that this
publication shall take place every year ; and that the payment in
lieu of tithe shall be varied accordingly. Therefore
the tithe owner will be entitled to ' receive every
year the payment according to the fluctuation in the
value of grain which must be taken to represent the
fluctuation in the valuation of prices.—( Hear.) There is
another part of this subject which I do not propose to alter in
this Bill, though it forms part of the general matter. I mean
the question of redemption. Without entering into any details of
the objections that were taken to the principle of redemption,
I will only say that on a future day I will introduce a bill on the
subject, and consider it open to any objections that may be made
to it, and lam sensible that it is open to great objections. The
bill I propose for the present to be limited to a rent charge, which
will produce a certain income to the Clergy without those
objections that applied to tithes ; and if it does not im-
mediately settle the question to the entire satisfaction
of all parties, it will in a few years leave persons at
liberty to cultivate their land, and to apply themselves
to the improvement of land, without any fear that
the tithes will be increased, and it will leave the
clergy in a situation in which they ought to be—namely, re-
ceiving a regular and independent living connected_with the
land of their parish and the landholders, at the same time
that it will be free from the present objection to the col-
lection of tithe.—( Cheers, and cries of " Hear, hear.")
I have only further to add, that the payment of the rent charge
should take precedence of all other liabilities on the land;
and with respect to the rates, it would, it appears, give satisfac-
tion, if they remained still liable as at present. I have now stated
the plan on which we propose to settle this question of tithes.
I am not so presumptuous as to suppose after all the plans
that have been submitted to Parliament that it is the best ;
but I do think if we seriously turn our attention to its details,
it may be so worked that it shall be productive of great benefit,
and, next to the settlement of the Poor Law question, will de-
serve the gratitude of the country. lam sure its final settle-
ment will be a great benefit to the, Church, as well as to the
country at large.—(lmmense cheering.)
Sir R. PEEL begged to ask whether the plan of the
Noble Lord would equally apply to lay impropriators and to
the ecclesiastical incumbents? He also wished to know
what was the value of the land to be taken into
account in the apportioning of the rent charge ? Was it the
present value--and what remedy would the Church have in
case of non-payment of the rent charge?
Lord J. RUSSELL said with respect to the first question
his plan would equally include lay as well as ecclesiastical
tithes. As to the second, in the first instance, as the tithes would
be apportioned, the landowners would have the opportunity
of asking for a re-valuation ; and on the third he proposed that
the remedy would be by distress and entry on the lands, such
distress not to be made for a longer period than two years.
Mr. GISBORNE enquired whether the Bill comprehended
Mineral Tithes ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—Yes; all tithes.
The question, " That leave be given to bring in a Bill for
the Commutation of Tithes in England and Wales," was then
put from the Chair.
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perty arid Church property, which was sought to be drawn
by the Noble Lord ; but, in his opinion the Noble Lord ought
not to take from property any proportion of its value by any
)ask the Noble Lord opposite
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whether his Bill applied to parishes which had been already
commuted ?
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ctionthat the law of Parliament should be laid
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to be pur-
suedconflicting authorities on the subject of tithes. There would
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motion to bring in a Bill.—( Hear, hear.) It WAS of
importance that the law and practice of Parliament shouldgreat
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be determined upon, and he thought it would be of great advan-
tage, where questions were to be put of importance, that the Bil
should originate, which had been the usual form, in Committee.
He apprehended that the Noble Lord had made • ee.
considerable
advances towards agreeing with him on the subject of tithes
in some important respects.—( Loud cheers, and Hear,) He
did not urge that as an objection to the Noble Lord; for the
matter was so complicated that the Noble Lord was right to at-
tend to the suggestions that had been given. He apprehended
that the Noble Lord now felt the objection to taking the estimate
of the real value, and taking an average of seven years. He also
felt the force of those objections which were perfectly insu-
perable to the plan proposed by Lord Althorp, in attempt-
ing to establish a certain proportion between rent and
tithe, as it appeared to him they were perfectly incommensurate.
Tithe was the payment of a national produce—rent was not.
The Noble Lord had adopted the whole machinery of the Bill'
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