The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-21 00:00:00

persons to maintain in idleness above two millions o
people. With regard to the area cf taxation, he believed
that the present extended area would encourage exter-
minvion, and not the adoption of a diminished area,
wt,ich, accompanied by a simple law of settlement, would
tend to chick the system of extermination. What could

be more delusive than the anticipations founded upon
the prospect of the returning potato? Of what value
would it soon be for feeding pigs? Frei h pork was now

imported from America. The potato could net be relied
upon for carrying' the tenant-farmer through the struggle
which awaited him. Ho was in a very different case
from the tenant-farmer in England; in England free
trade might be followed by an adjustment of rent to the
price of agricultural produce, but in Ireland to ask the
encumbered landlord to reduce the rent some 20 per
cent., or even less, was virtually to ask him to pass
sentence of expatriation upon himself.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. Sadleir) had received a letter that morning
from Queen's County, written by Mr. Wood, a prac-
tical rum, thoroughly acquainted with the dis-
trict; and he stated that in the divisions of Donogun-
more and Burris-in-Ossory there were about 3,000 acres
partially deserted. This was one of the districts from

which the sixpenny rate was expected to be collected !
—(clear,) This gentleman estimated the quantity of
lend without hoof or horn upin it at more than 6,000
acres ; there ',yrs no prospect of getting the rates of this
land before October next. He stated also, that from ten
thousand acres, Irish plantation measure, the poor-rate
could only be got by sale of the farm horse, or the cow,
cm which the subsistence of the family depended. Such
were the circumstances of the country; and they justified
him (Mr. Sadleir) in saying that he was opposed to the
rate in aid, and he was also opposed to the imposition of
an income-tax upon any interest, profession, or calling
in Ireland. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
might smile at that, but let him show what class
or interest was in such a condition as to -Make it politic,
upon Imperial grounds, to impose upon it a tax from

which it had been hitherto exeniptei. He (Mr. Sadleir)
had with him a letter from Mr. Purdy, agent to the
Mining Company of Ireland, showing the very great
reduction in the quantity of small coal of late for burn-
ing lime to manure land, corroborating what he (Mr.
Sadleir) knew to be true of a vast proiortion of that

class in Tipperary and Queen's i:;'otiety, that the
tenantry, who were just getting what crop they could
out of the land, were calculating leaving in the autumn.
Another letter described the miserable condition of an
estate, the people dying by inches; and that was a dis-
trict from which the rate in aid was to be levied!--
(Hear, hear.) Could anything be more like playing
with the lives of the people, than to put forward
such an absurd proposition to practical men of business
to meet a great and pressing difficulty? Let the un-
sound social state of Ireland be laid bare to the people
of this country, and then, if the House of Commons
would pass (to use the phrase of the Minister) a delibe-
rate sentence of death upon the distressed people of

Ireland, let him appeal to the constituencies and see
whether England would sanction such treatment of a

people unequalled for patience and resignation—a peo-
ple who had been too submissive under a policy which
seemed like a cruel indifference to the increasing morta-
lity to which they were exposed. He had frequently ap-
pealed to the Government to take some steps by which
the vital statistics of Ireland might be placed before the
House. He bad asked them to employ the machinery
which they already possessed to obtain a return of the
cattle, corn, poultry, and pigs of Ireland—to employ the
police, and to avail themselves of the assistance of the
clergy, the sheriffs, and the coroners of Ireland, in order
to get materials for placing before the House the nature
and character of that mortality which many private in-
dividuals knew well was rapidly and fearfully increasing.
—(Hear.) The Noble Lord acknowledged the import-
ance of this subject, hut notwithstanding he had not as
yet introduced any measure for the registration of births
and deaths in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared as
if there was a wish to conceal the dreadful state of things
in Ireland—that there was a crafty effort to withhold
from the people of England a report of this disgraceful
mortality.—(Hear, hear.) The fearful destitution of
Ireland was the main ground on which he rested his op-
position to the rate in aid, as well as to the income-tax.
He found himself compelled to vote against the Hon.
Member for Kerry in his proposal of an income-tax, and
also against the rate iu aid, which the Government had
brought forward as the most wise and just mode of taxa-
tion it was in their power to suggest. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer stated last year, that though on strict
principles of justice it could not be denied that the in-
come-tax ought to be equally imposed on both countries,
yet that in the particular circumstances of Ireland it
would cot he expedient to do so. On that occasion he
spoke of professional men in Ireland who might be in the
receipt of 3,0001. or 4,0001. a year; but he (Mr. Sadleir)
must sly the number of such was very small. There
were not more than six members of the Irish bar
whose professional incomes exceeded 3,0001. per an-
num ; and, with those exceptions, he did not believe
there were many receiving 2,0001. per annum ; while-
the great majority scarcely earned as much as would
pay their current expenses. The reasons given by
the Right Honourable Gentleman last year for not
imposing the income-tax might be urged with equal force
at the present moment; and, therefore, he could not give.
the amendment of the Hon. Member for Kerry his sup-
port. With reference to the case of encumbered estates'
in Ireland, he was satisfied that so long as they
aimed at the administration of those estates
throueh the courts of equity they would never re-
move the difficulties they had now to contend with.
They must make up their minds to surrender
to some commission a ith extraordinary powers the as-
certainment of the demands justly chargeable upon these
properties, and ail other circumstances, and to confer
Parliamentary titles on those who might:purchaee. Such
a project was no novelty in Ireland'. It had been tried
in that country with p rfect success, anti he was satis-
fied that, if n'ilv adopted, iast2a I of employing the ma-
chinery of the Court o' Chancery, a saving of from 30 to
40 per cent. would he elf, eted on the properties which
might under such a commission change hands.—(Hear.)
Mr. CLEMENTS thought the Hon. Gentleman who
had just spoken had brought forward strong arguments
in favour of the amendment of the Hon. Member for
Kerry; for anything that showed the prostration of the
farming class in Ireland, anything that pointed out the•
great burdens they had to bear connected with the poor-
rate, spoke in favour of an income-tax in preference to
a rate-in-aid. If they were merely to consider the
question whether Ireland should, under existing circum-
stances, be taxed, he thought they would all come to the
conclusion that it ought not to be taxed. In ordinary
circumstances he would take the Hon. Gentleman's view
of the:case; but it was admit:est that they were in no ordi-
nary circumstances. Right or wrong, the English people
were admitted to be against affording any further aid
to Ireland ; but it was, at the same time, unques-
tioned that the distress of the western districts of
Ireland must be relieved. Then where was the money
to come from? It could only be drawn from Irish
resources—(Hear, hear)—and the only question
b:-fore the Committee was, what kind of tax would
it be mast convenient for them to pay? —(Hear, hear.)
Everything that had been urged by the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Sadleir) spoke trumpet-tongued in favour of an in-
come-tax; and he had heard nothing either from the
Noble Lord or the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
could induce him to approve of the principle of the rate
in aid. The Noble Lord had said that if the Irish Mew-
hers were in favour of an income-tax he would have no
objection to it; but he regretted that the mode in which
he thought it desirable to propose that substitution had
anything but tended to a solution of the difficulty.--
(Hear, hear.) At the same time he thought it unfortu-
nate that any gentleman should have been frightened
from the position they were inclined to take by the sort
of almost threat which the Noble Lord held out to them,
that if they adopted an income-tax, still further taxation
would be imposed upon them.—(Hear.) He could not un-
derstand why an income-tax should not realise as much
as a rate in aid. The only ground for supposing it
would not was that a large amount of income was al-
ready paid in England out of Irish resources. But he en-
treated Irish Members not to be frightened at the
threat of the Noble Lord, but to consider the question
fully and fairly whether it was not more desirable to
have an income- tax than a rate in-aid. By having. an
income-tax they w ould avoid the degrading principle
involved in making Ireland the area of a separate tax-
ation fur purposes which should be a charge on the united
empire. When he reflected on the moral effect a rate
in aid would have on the farming classes in Ireland, he
was really at a loss for expressions adequately to de-
scribe the apprehensions which must naturally be felt on
that subject. If, therefore, the Irish members were pre-
pared to meet the present crisis by agreeing to the
imposition of some new tax, he would cordially support
the amendment of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. RICE would have been content to have given *
silent vote in favour of a rate in aid, if it had not ap-
peared .to him that the Hon. Member for Kerry bad
made this an English :question. Undoubtedly the
pe -ple of England did feel it hard that they should pay
an income-tax while the people of Ireland were exempt
from such a charge. Having on a former occasion
voted in favour of extending the income-tax to Ireland,
it was necessary he should explain why he now gave
bis preference to a rate in aid. His sole reason was
that he believed al rate in aid would meet the exi-
gency that now pressed upon the House—that of
saving of the people of Ireland from starvation--
whereas an income-tax would not.—(Hear;) If the
rate in aid was only to be :sixpence in the pound, he
thought a very unnecessarydegree of indignation had been
displayed, and much valuable time wasted in debate by
those who opposed that proposition. He admitted,
however, that tbere had been some valid objections urged
against it. One was, the uncertainty that existed as to
whether the rate would be limited in amount or in dura-
tion. That point ought at once to be sent at rest by the
Government.—(Hear, hear.) He would limit the time
to one year, and the amount to sixpence in the pound.
But when the rate in aid ceased, then the income tax
should commence.— (" Hear," and laughter.) He was
glad that his proposition had been received with sack
good humour; indeed, he was happy to observe that the
debate had taken a much better tone than was evinced ill
the beginning of the discussion,—when some Hon. Gen-
tlemen were pleased to say—" We in Ulster are Protes-
tants and prosperous; while you in Connaught are CathO'
lies and in distress;—become like us, be Protestants and
p rosperous, and then you will need no one to relieve
you." Such had been the language used in these debates;
but the Hon. Member for Kerry and the Hon. Mem-
ber who had just addressed the douse had spoken in f 4
very different spirit. It was honourable for Irish Nicol'
hers to come forward and say that they were pee"
pare,' to submit to an income-tax for Ireland. He ws3
willing to give them an income-tax ; and he should al'e
like to meet the wishes of the Noble Lord the Member
for Down (Lord Castlereagh), who had expressed $
desire that it should be an Imperial-tax and for DI"
perial purposes ; and, moreover, that it should ill
the same character of permanency which ho believe
the income-tax in this country was destined to en-
joy.--(Laughter.) He gave his vote on this occa-
sion as a vote of confidence in the Government
(Hear, hear)—for he popeued 119 i4furaaticia . 'Pr.