The Sun.
London, England, 1838-08-04 00:00:00

"der the Reform Act, and in favor r of the Regstration Act
naw before Parliament.
Ou the notion of Lord t_IROUG HAM, the She rill's' Ad-
'yo. atien Bill was reed a third time and passed.
Lord BROUGHAM eai4l..he Con;mittee on the t'aiso
ns
lie :
(Scotland) Bill had age ee-1 to a report, which
now pre.
sted. It had been gone through with t;'en
heen rcate: t care, and
trusted the amen.dinents woeld , meet with u.nininious
g
adoption.
The Earl of INNISKILLEN presented petitions from
Sunderland an' other pleees a7ainst the encoeinEement of
idolatrous we: Olin in India.
TITHES (IRELAND) BILL. Lord NIELIt . .
a) URN E moved thee the paragraph i her
Alliesty's epe:ch relating to this subject be read.
T hie hay; ng been done,
Iliis Lonnsuir moved that the House go into Committee on
Litt, hill. Itnves not his intention to addre‘s the fleutsieoalts any very
were of
grt_!ilt. temeth on the present occasion. W"e"qUttTiem matter of
rery •araat difficulty, it was better not to make.
3',111' rfluous discus ion. He should,. thereter.e,. refrain,
cfrecsim.
.(11'cititig On any of these great questions of. ci,il and cc I i
".I, tical polity with which the question was intrrilatelYc_..7o7.(ilc.t.epa;,
tic should confine himself to the Bill before their I ct '':,
and a general statement of its provisions. The great principle
of the Bill was to convert the tithes into A
career.,
coliarigen_
taa able to the person who held the nrt e
eritanee. It was not for him to point out—it
front the
was obvious to
their Lordships that to relieve the occupying tenant
liability of discharging his tithe, and tothivie;rvy respecttheclis movecharge
a,f what was due on those who were in e
able, in every respect more
upon those who were few
ild unquestionably put
in number and higher in station, wo
40 end to, and close the unfortunate discords and tumults that
had arisen from this cause in Ireland, or at least would put an
.
end to them in the form in which they had hitherto e.x4‘sted
This was the great principle and object of this Bill, There
'sere two other points which were new, and which had not
Leen adverted to in the former measure on this subject. Theseit
'were the provisions with respect to that pration of the mi
ton
which had been advanced under the Act of the .ear 1533, for
the relief of the clergy of Ireland ; and also the provision
. with respect to the arrears of the tithes that had accrued due during the last four years, and during the unfortunate
difficulties which had been met with in the reelection of
tithes.—( Hear.) It was perfectly obvious that unless
they closed up all questions with
respect to the arrears,
they
they pet an end to all collection of those arrears in
that country, they wauld not be giving this measure fair
Play* and they vron.',d not be taking the hest means for ac.; Pony,
the anal in view. If they left the arrears still_ tue collected lei the clergy from the occupying tenant they
Could atioaukled notit ; rualae the measure so complete as they
rougttt
they would not be giving a fair chance o
it.
accom-
plishing the beneficial object which they expected from
113: thq clause, therefore, of this Bill the Lord Lieutenant
emitt powered, and not only empowered but directed, to
rtio the Clee v the instalments due from them of the hiillion which had been advanced to them, and thus exone-
iti;te them from the necessity of levying it from_ thoseb
whom it was due. With respect to the residue of the. million
aWauich amounted to about 260,0001., certain sums having been
,-4,:aneed to the Clergy, and certain sums having been ap-
,V.Priated to other purposes, it was proposed to apply this
isi,Liwe to the satisfaction of the arrears according to the.
ta
a`tts of the titheowners with respect to the arrears accruing
auBt3744rling the last four years, namely, 1934, 1835, 1936, and
'to b . 't was to be remitted only to the clergy, and was not
the land rc'inittad to those lay impropriators who possessed both
rea-d.„4n_decatid tile tithes,
.nor to those, clergymen who had al-
that ready ewe(' from their debtors that portion of the tithes
lio 3 due to them. It was impossible to go into calcula-
tions(lo this subject, and he would therefore refrain from
bi 11.6 sh• He had some calculations that had been made,
itt-"„%cutvra.s rather fearful of future calculations, particularly
in t for the
ib_ .e.ti.. nary matters, as he knew they were very apt not to
'ai stifled by the result. It had, however, been supposed
last four fears 500,000/. was due upon the
424inn"lit saf tithes, and about 070,000/, previously. By the
eteooo/
d ie ', together with the sums that had been received
and
at were to be received from lay impropriators, it
b,-"' N:posed that they would raise 500,000/., which would kb sufficierat to pay the clergy about 70 per cent. upon
1 'se arrears. This was the calculation which he understood
tiadobeert made - but he begged, however, not to be un-
er°°4 as making himself responsible for its present ac-
Those'
Purse
or as pledging himself as to its future result.
what provisions were new, and it was perfectly evident
ti_ t ;vere the grounds and object of introducing. them into
10 Wesent Bill. Whatever objections might be urged to
4Z, those objections
.were overborne by the greater ativan-
the ' and, in present circumstances, the necessity of them for
a. Welfare and the beneficial operation of this measure. He
0-llnnot know that it was necessary for him to make any other
sui:vrvtio
_,..aesitta,—
med to carry into
n upon the other clauses ofl only framed
Bill, which were
gay to the main object, and i odn
already stated to their
ret those principles which he la
Wships But there were unquestionablyb certain clauses
Ire, •.
r-leh Were not new, which they had ad in. all the Billswhaieclblt,
111413 fro!n the House of Commons on this subject, and to
e4t their. Lordships very well knew, very great objections were ,
ertained by many Members of this House—he meant those
clauses which provided, in certain cases of excess, in certain
ses of alleged fraud, in certain cases of mistake and want
„„care, for the re-opening and re-consideration of the corn.-,
r-sition for tithes as it at present existed. He knew dna
lhas very much objected to as unnacessary, as breaking into
'iladrliirsven .e°l7o.4riyagsanaentidon
Ile i.
edreed
t'
hue
icp
rot
erne.rnweelOryen ,riapnpiing up contracts founded upon
which had been solemnly de-
that
irthaanyother hand, it was perfectly certain
cases in which these compositions
beyond the mark, and beyond the real
value of the property, in which they hail been made with
Very great carelessness and neglect, and where, in con-
sequence, very great excess prevailed in the amount with
which the land was charged for tithe; and it was generally
admitted that, with respect to certain class of compositions,
thc'se which had been compulsorily formed under the Act
c!trarnonly called Lord Stanley's Act, at a time when great
vteAence existed on one side, they had been carried into effect
Zithout that care which was required, and whether the charge
t.'id been made fairly or unfairly in those cases, unquestionably
a flan been
compositions could not be relied upon as being in any
"egree fair representatives of the property which they were in-
ettded to assess and to represent. Upon these grounds, he
Illight say
ste , -a extraordinary grounds, those Clauses were intro-
-4 Led which gave to a certain number of persons, possessing
-6eertain portion of composition, the right to apply for a re-
,v-,-," and reconsideration of the contract upon certain alleged
tenis-k !Tecifi.o grounds mentioned in the Bill, namely, want of
r. 4,, excess, fraud, and misrepresentation in the beginning and
4:4Cis
formation of the contract. He knew very well that they
1411blittt
have
tsto introduce a principle of this sort, because there
bat been one or two exorbitant or extravagant cases ;
la- -ante time, if there had been a great deal of remiss-
alifi"erif the tountry suffered under these charges, as it did.
Is ,he trusted that upon a fair consideration the House would
" diar,
fully -"es ed to sanction the revision of those contracts, care-
e,_,.
i guarded and secured as such revision was by the Bill.
leotlie were the principal provisions of this Bill, and he did
torn?." whether it was necessary for hint to trouble their
upon with any public observations upon them
or
was ' anYthing connected with them. He knew nothing
ea,s rcore dangerous than to anticipate anything like sue-
trier upon
any measure. He knew alto that nothing was
•
Cu eeu4:)ss! or more likely to end in disappointment, than
or
tiaZh.e!'estlcata anything like supposed contentment _ c
`ltd .t-0-I,llttY ; but he begged leave to say, that although h
kinnei; ilraw any flattering- picture of that description, yet
Lord, ig that he lied himself the same object as all their
this itilps had in view, he presented to their considerate
2o 'en the present occasion, as the best and most prudent
aet;ltnieli it was possible to hope for success under pre-
Thoeine'reanietances. The Noble Viscount concluded by
Tith-R that the House resolve itself into Committee on the
Les (Ireland ) Bill.
Vi, c'rci 1.380UG HAM—If I could agree a ith the Noble
hi; aunt' not merely in the opinion with which he concludaned.
thi,,Taross, that this is the best Bill that could be framed,
_d_
ha..,:` is the measure most likely to attain the end we all
.t,„` 'n view with respect to Ireland under
with
mere
'ti ."act, and particularly if I could agree asatn the obse,rv.ah, t°ll with which the Noble Viscount commenced his speech,
teat
:r'the subject matter now before you 'sad been so often.al-
HiY discussed as to make it superfluous TO meet again points "'llt had been so frequently dealt with and decided, my pre-
e
, r't task would indeed be reduced within limi:s snore corn-
of at once with my own inclination and the patience
'',! Your Lords.bins. But it is because Ido not take that
.tell":
,inf this measure with which the Noble Viscount's speech
°•-cui had it i because I know—for this is no matter of
e erti„3
.5
the. T:' it is matter of fact—it is because I also know that
ratel-01:11,1 Viscount has misstated, doubtless from not accu-
,,4(
ft:ere:llmin,, the relative position in which he now
les.:l:' and in whic% he formerly stood e hen this question was
duty the tlouse, that I feel it to be my indispensable
ir, t'h'i:t from which I may rot shrink, to ester my protest
hthete e'ttsatitauged,,iintmwhsioc,h I hive had an opportunity, in de-
mid of expressing my dissent, and Vetnea'rta ,off that dissent, front the measure of the Noble
11:itte;:. As to any picture that can be drawn prospectively,
eag to ,
hat 10111 the hop,s of those who are its friends, 01. as toatly
tleapb, t or sketch that might he given by those who,
.feeling
ittiver, 'PPreb cosh- e of the consequences, avow themselves its
hs thet.les, I purposely, for the present at least, would abstain,
clellili2\ ot:dc Viscount has done, from any such expressions,s
raise,n_ti It generally rather rash, inasmuch as
.expectatifon.
c 0,,,:., !e often disappointed, and fears entertained as re-
rarnaT afterwards prove to he unfounded. But there is one
wai,ll' nf the Noble Viscount's in which I entirely agree, in
104; ' the Nali`e Viscount said that celculations were (lenge-
Ivaitial well as prospec.ive sketches, and that these calculations
fruat I were Wade of what was to happen in future were very often
a,,r rated by the event. This Bill, rue; Lords, at once gives a
it Y remarkable instance of the truth of the proposition, and
Lori'd itlte first. of the grounds which I have, stated to your
cessiBQll)s for not feeling it possible to retire from the dig.
cession of this subject, namely, that it is not the measure we
No,e,lorrnerly discussed. The calculation is this. When my
e,,e°,lll_ hriend, Lord Althorp, with nay entire coneurrence as a
','i,, her of the same Government with himself and the Noble
tilt; Vise
propounded the rniliion advance to the 11-,11 Church,
„a'.,eseculation ( te we the phrase or the Noble Viscount) then
c`lai?,..thet it avas'a loan, and the eapeetation raised by that cal.
ad `llleti necessarily followed, that like other loans, the parte otlylning it was to have a claim of repayment ; and also like
1,1'4 erecliters, the repayment was sooner or later to take
wna4,seLlevyantedpayee in the calculation—the Church to whom it
; or if it were not advanced to the Church, but
°l:3' to relieve the payers of tithes, namely, the Irish land-
as ',/_".B, that after a time ttiese Irish landowners would repay,
t.l It stilted their convenience, but still sooner or later repay
ia'''''lctlY so advaaced. 7-ell n-.Ezht the Noble 7izeourit eay,
tieepeeine the measure to-night, as a generel prop(e'ation,
4Tt Caleda.tiona are not always rcaliz,:d, for it is Lot above four