The Sun.
London, England, 1838-12-25 00:00:00

Did he upon that occasion speak in his ordinary tone ?
Yes ; I heard every word he said.
Then Sir, I ask you, whether Mr. Carlisle said he
would act like a sensible man, and I will give him the 6/.
at Christmas ?
Certainly not.
Did Mr. Carlisle say anything about 6/., or Christmas, or
anything of that sort ?
Nothing of the sort. F74,1?inl
Did any body in your hearing say anything about the 6/. ?
Certainly not.
Or about any sum of money ?
Decidedly not.
Were you during the time you were at Mr. Virrier's
door in such a situation that you might Hve heard
what Mr. Carlisle said ?
Certainly. We continued together till we left the
door. I don't think that Mr. Carlisle was at any time
further from me than I am from you.
How long do you suppose you was there ?
I should think the whole might be included in three
minutes.

Cross-examined by Mr. THESIGER—I went abroad for
six or seven years for the benefit of my health. A lady
accompanied me. She had been married, but lam not
able to say that she was married at that time.
She was not married to me, and I do not know
whether her husband was living then or not. She
had been with me about two years before I went abroad.
She returned with me. She now resides in a house of her
own. I certainly see her occasionally. I was invited to
Bristol by the Liberal Association, and individuals of that
Association acted for me. I presume I had a Committee,
but I cannot state on my oath that I had, for I never saw
one. A deputation from the Liberal Association waited
on me, and they managed the election. I could name
four or five members of that Association who were Charity
Trustees. Mr. Visger and Mr. Carlisle were members.
Mr. Cunningham was President, and Mr. G. H. Saun-
ders Vice-President. I began my canvass on the 6th of
July. The gentlemen who accompanied me frequently
carried with them tracts, or pamphlets, which they gave to
the electors. I saw the tracts, and approved of them.
I do not know how many were printed, but I should say
thousands. Some of the electors have spoken to me about
the Charities, and I have replied. I have not, to my
knowledge, spoken to them about the Charities without
them having spoken to me.
Are you prepared to swear that you never did, in the
course of your canvass, mention the 6/. charity at
Christmas ?—I should not like to swear it at all, but I
cannot swear that I did. I have no recollection of such
an occurrence, otherwise I would swear it.
Are you prepared to swear that the persons who ac-
companied you in your canvass, in your presence did not
mention the Charities?—They have very frequently re-
ferred to the tracts, and pointed out that those charities
which had been formerly used for political purposes were
now no longer so.
That is not quite an answer to my question. I must
have an answer distinctly. Are you prepared to swear
that the gentlemen who accompanied you did not, in your
presence, mention the 61. Charity at Christmas ?—ln the
way I have mentioned.
Are you prepared to swear they have not in any other
way ?—I am.
Lord DENMAN—You are prepared to state that ?
Yes ; roundly and broadly ; and I would state further, that
if they had done so—
Mr. THESIGER—You cannot state that. You have
spoken to the electors about the Charities ?—I said the
charities would be disposed of according to merit.
Whether the merits were blue or any other way ?—Dis-
tinctly, not politically. That has not happened a hundred
times ; but I will not swear to fifty.
You knew nothing of Virrier before this ?—I r ever
heard the man's name mentioned, except by Mr. Visger,
in approaching the spot. The Adam and Eve-passage may
be four or five yards wide. The door of Virrier's house
opens upon the passage. I saw nothing within the door-
way but Mrs. Virrier. I canvassed a vast number of per-
sons in the course of the day, but can't recollect what
passed at every place. It required some particular object
to fix such an idea in my mind. There was nothing parti-
cular in what passed at Virrier's, unless that it referred to
certain information which I had received from Mr. Visger,
touching certain voters in Bristol, which he exemplified by
Virrier.

Then there was nothing particular in the interview be-
tween you and Mrs. Virrier?
On the contrary ; I should say she was extremely par-
ticular ; she is a sort of person that one can't easily mistake.
I saw nobody else there besides the canvassing party and
Mrs. Virrier. During the whole of the time I was with
Mr. Visger, except when I disengaged my arm. I can't
tell whether Mr. Carlisle had shifted ground or not.
Do you happen to know the expenses of the election?
I do not.
Did you provide any funds ?
I was the means of providing some part of the funds.
The medium ?
I won't cavil with you about the expression ; I have no
hesitation in saying that part of the sum came from my
family, for the necessary expenses of the election.
How much was that—l,sool.?
I rather think it was more.
That came from Berkeley Castle ?
Yes.

From Lord Segrave : how much more than 1,500/. ?
There was an additional sum, but I can't say how much.
Do you mean to say that you defrayed out of the monies
that were provided all the expenses ?
As far as I know, the expenses were defrayed so.
Do you know the amount of the expenses yourself ?
I cannot speak positively to them.
Can you state comparatively ?
I have stated that was the sum, beyond which I was not
prepared to go.
That is, you were liable to that extent, and all the ex-
penses beyond were to be provided from another source ?
If any existed.
And if that existed you don't know ?
I do not.
Do you pay the expenses of the prosecution ?
Certainly, I shall.
With your own funds ?
With no other funds that I know of.
Is there nobody answerable to save you harmless from
these expenses ?
No, there is not ; it is a matter of feeling on my own
part bringing this indictment, and I am answerable for it.
Re-examined.—l had nothing further to do with the
Liberal Association than to receive the assistance of these
gentlemen. I do not recollect at what period the tracts
were first issued ; certainly not within the first two or three
days.
You said there was something particular in Mrs.Virrier ?

Her personal appearance was very particular ; she had
either only one eye, or else an extraordinary obliquity of
vision. It was her personal appearance that struck me as
remarkable ; and I likewise referred to certain conversation
passing around me—it was some joke.
Mr. Harman Visger examined by Mr. ADOLPHUS.—I
am a merchant at Bristol, a town councillor, and one of the
charity trustees. One of the charities is called Pelloquin's,
which is usually distributed about Christmas. The amount
is about 61. each to fifty persons. I accompanied Mr.
Berkeley on his canvass. He walked with a stick, and
generally took the arm of some friend. On the day in ques-
tion he took the arm of Mr. Cunningham in the morning,
and part of the day he took !nine. We went in the course
of the day to Adam and Eve-passage, leading froni Wine-
street to Maryport-street. The passage is a narrow one.
Virrier's house is in the widest part of it. I think we got
there about three o'clock. Mr. Berkeley had then hold of
my arm. The outer door of the house, I think, was open.
Mr. Berkeley solicited Mrs. Virrier for her husband's vote,
stating that he hoped he would give one. Her reply was,
that her husband was going to vote one and one.
Did Mr. Carlisle say anything ?

I can't sufficiently divest my mind of what I have
heard, to say specifically whether he did or not. I think he
said that was right, or something of that kind.
Did he say to Mrs. Virrier, or any one else, one word
about the charities 't
—Ho did not.
Did he say that if her husband voted one and one, he
should have 61. at Christmas ?—He did not.

Did you hear him say, at any time, that Mr. Virrier
should certainly have 6/. at Christmas?—No, never.
While Mr. Berkeley was there, did you see anything
prss between him and Mrs. Virrier ?—I saw him shake
hands with her. He left hold of my arm, and changed
his stick from one hand to the other, to enable him to do so.

Did he put his hand into his pocket, or any place about
him, whatever ?—I did not see him.
can't say
positively
have done so, without your seeing him ?—I
nsitivelv whether he might or not. Did he at •
own party
time,h during your being there, whisper to
her at all
people, and p
youriDid'iyAoaluenrwd.see any otherr person there except Mrs. Virrier
tsoadytidhatn
yeele—l
thoectif.t„Vcitrr?i—ersNow.ere deserving
hoped they would have the money at
no_ forget them
Christmas, otrhil:aeanrryllt in
You say such a thing ?—No.
Did any one of
Did Mr. Carlisle, at anytime, say he had the power,
and he wound t
E- -s i 1•41:
Eo
R.
CrOSS,eXarnined by Mr.
anythingTn
Carlisle said—Do you recollect
whether Mr.l, or not ?—I can't suffi-
ciently divest myself of what
- • 1 "vo heard •
()rsince, to say
whether it was an origina. recollection
Lord DENMAN—Do you recd,._ whether s
any-
thing, or not ?—Having heard things sined2 cant Isaidsay
whether he made an immaterial observation or
Tanything
hat is not the question ; did he say I'ot.
?—I am
not sure whether he said anything or not.

By Mr. THESICER—I am a member of the Liberal
Association, and acted with Mr. Berkeley at the election.
Messrs. Powell, Harwood, Canning, Visger, Castle, Saun-
ders, and several other trustees, are also members.
Lord DENMAN—How many are there altogether ?
Mr. THESIGIR—There are twenty-one, and seventeen
are members of the Association ; there are only four who
are not.
Cross-examination continued—l distributed some tracts,
but I think not a thousand. I paid Mr. Somerton's
account. When distributing the tracts I did not talk to
the electors about the charities, except when spoken to
about them, and then only o❑ about three occasions. I
think Mr. Berkeley must have been present. It was in
the course of the canvass. I don't recollect seeing any-
body look into Mrs. Virrier's window on going away. I
can't swear whether I did or not.
Will you swear that you did not, in looking through
the window, see persons inside ?—I don't recollect see-
ing any one. I'll swear that I believe I did not.
Did you not see Sarah Ann Hayward there ?—I have
no recollection of seeing any one there.
Re-examined--You were asked about talking to some
of the electors on the subject of the charities : what
did did those electors say that induced you to con-
verse ?—They said something that induced me to expect
they considered voting would be a recommendation to
the charity, and I undeceived them immediately.
How undeceived them ?—I said we distributed the
charity according to the merits of the case, and not with
any political view whatever. That is the answer I re-
turned in every case.
Did you hear any one say anything differently ?--
No one whatever.
Mr. Thomas Carlisle examined by Mr. CHAMBERS--
I am a haberdasher and mercer at Bristol. lam also
a member of the Corporation, and a trustee of the cha-
rities. I recollect going with Mr. Berkeley on the 6th
of July, late in the afternoon, to Adam and Eve-passage.
Mr. Somerton, Mr. Visger, Mr. G. H. Saunders, Mr. T. R.
Saunders, Mr. Thomas Wrighten and Mr. Miller were
also there. I have not seen Mr. Miller for some months.
On coming up to the door we saw Mrs. Virrier.
Did you and Mr. Somerton go into the house ?--Only
on the threshold of the door. She was in a small space,
the lobby of the house.
As far as you can recollect, tell me what took place
upon your going up ?—lmmediately when we got
up I asked, "Is Virrier within ?" and, if I
recollect right, she almost anticipated what I was
going to say, by remarking, " It is all right gentlemen, Vir-
Her will vote one and one." Mr. Berkeley had come up
by this time. I said, " this is Mr. Berkeley, and we have
come to ask Virrier's vote for him." Her answer was, "He
intends to vote one and one." I said if he does that, lie will
be a sensible man, situated as he is.
Did you hear anything that Mr. Berkeley said, or see any-
thing that he did ?—He thankedher,and I think shooks hands
with her, and, as he had done in the course of the day where
we had not found the party at home, he left his private
card, and I gave one of the canvassing cards at the same
time.
When Mr. Berkeley shook hands with her, was your eye
upon him ?—Oh, yes.
Could he, without your seeing him, have given her a so-
vereign ?—I should think it utterly impossible.
Did he address her in a whisper or a low tone of voice ?
I believe he said, " Deliver this to Mr. Virrier, and say lam
much obliged to him."
After Mr. Berkeley had shook hands with her, did any of
you remain, or did you go away ?—We all went away im-
mediately.
Was any sovereign given ?—No, certainly not.
Did you say you would give Virrier 6/. at Christmas, or
any sum of money ? Certainly not : in fact, she seemed
in as great a hurry to promise the vote as we were to ask it.
Did you say that you would not forget—that it was in
your power to do so ?—No, nothing of the kind.
Did you hear Mr. Berkeley say anything about giving her
anything ?—No. certainly he did not.
If any thing of the kind had passed, were you near
enough to hear, and must you have heard it?—Oh, yes ;
we were all in a line on the threshold of the door

How long do you suppose this interview lasted ?.

should say two or three minutes, not exceeding three, I am
positive.
Had you known Mrs. Virrier before ?—I had the Christ-
mas previous to that.
How was it you came to know her ?—Part of my duty
as charity trustee.
Mr. THESIGER—Are we to go into that ?
Lord DErlstaN—You had known her petitioning before
for the charity ?—I had.
Mr. CROWDER—She said he had promised her six
months before.
Mr. THESIGER—We come here to meet a charge of
perjury. The indictment only states the allegation of what
was done at the time of canvassing.
Lord DENMAN—I don't see the object of it.
Mr. CaownEa---It was stated that she had been pro-
mised 6/., and a good deal of the examination before the
Committee was as to the promise made by Mr. Carlisle.
I was going to ask Mr. Carlisle, whether, when the peti-
tion of 1836 was rejected, because Virrier had had the
money previously, he afterwards said anything about the 6/.
for the purpose of meeting any observation which my
Learned Friend might make, to exclude any presumption
against us for not going into the matter.
Lord DENMAN—You must confine yourself within some
limits. Ido not see that it is necessary to go into these
particulars.

Cross-examined by Mr. THEszcER—I was one that was
elected on the Committee, at a general meeting of the citi-
zens. Mr. Cunningham was Chairman of that Committee.
He is also Chairman of the Charity Trustees, and Chair-
man of the Liberal Association. I read most of the tracts
that were circulated, but I don't think I eistributed one.
I saw a great number distributed. Perhaps there were not
so many in my district as in others. There are fewer free-
men there. Pelloquin's charity is confined to freemen only.
I don't recollect any one looking through Virrier's window.
Re-examined.—I had not been a Charity trustee before
1836. I was appointed by the Lord Chancellor.
William Henry Somerton examined by Mr. CROWDER
—You are a printer at Bristol ?—I am.
You are a member of the Liberal Association ?—I sub-
scribe to it.
Did you accompany Mr. Berkeley on his canvass on the
6th July ?—I did.
Were you with him when he went to Adam and Eve-
passage ?—Yes.

Be so good as to state to the Jury how you went to the
door of Mrs. Virrier's house in Adam and Eve•passage ?
Who went first ?—Mr. Carlisle and myself went first a
little in advance of the party. Mr. Carlisle called out in a
loud voice, "Is Virrier at home ? Mrs. Virrier met. us
on the threshold.

Did you enter the door ?—We did not. At that instant
the remainder of the party came up.
How far had they been behind?—Two or three steps.
Mr. Carlisle asked if Virrier was at home ?—Yes, and
Mrs. Virrier said, "It is all right, Gentlemen. Virrier
means to v•:e one and one. He has got friends on both
sides, and won't offend anybody."
What said any body to that?—Mr. Carlisle made some
remark approving of what was said. I cannot remember
the words, but it was tantamount to this, that he would
act properly, or sensibly, or something of that sort.
At that time Mr. Berkeley was close to you?—He was
standing in front.

Was anything said about Mr. Berkeley ?—I don't re-
collect.

Was Mr. Berkeley known to her ?—He was introduced ;
she was told this is Mr. Berkeley. I don't recollect by
whom.

Did Mr. Berkeley do or say anything when she said her
husband would vote one and one ?—lt is probable that he
thanked her, taking it as a promise.
Did you see him shake hands with her can't say ;
but I think he must have done so, for he shook hands wits
almost all wh• promised him, or were friendly to his cause.
Were you close by till you left ?—Close by.
Did not Mr. Carlisle speak in a loud voice P—Suffi-
ciently loud for every person to hear.
On that occasion did you hear him say that Virrier was
a sensible man, and that he should have 61. at Christmas ?
—There was nothing of the sort said.
Are you quite sure ?—I did not hear anything of the kind.
Were you near enough to hear if anything like that was
said ?—I must have heard it if such an observation had

passed.
If you heard such a thing it must have struck you ?—lt
certainly would.
Did you hear him say I shall not forget you if it is in
my power, and I will not forget it ?—There was not a word
said after she had promised. Not a word about GI., or any
sum of money.
Did Mr. Berkeley say do not forget them, they are de-
serving people ?—Not a word of the kind.
As you were close to Mr. Berkeley can you tell us if he
whispered anything ?—I do not think he did.
Cards were given, I believe ?—Yes, cards were given
generally.
Were they given on that occasion have no recollec-
tion that cards were given on that occasion.
How long were you at the door ?—Two minutes—net
exceeding that time.
Did you retire with Mr. Carlisle ?—Yes, with him and
Mr. Berkeley.
Was Mr. Berkeley near you ?—I do not know his ex-
act position ; he and Mr. Carlisle and Mr. George Saunders
were in front, but I cannot speak precisely as to his position.
Cross-e;amined by Mr. THESIGEIt—You are the printer
of the Bristol Mercury k-71 am the proprietor and printer.
Were you employed to tracts' for (.4so.o?ution among
the electors t— A es.