The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-10 00:00:00

of last session. He did not complain of the plagiarism.—( A
laugh.) He wished that he would adopt the whole Bill.—
(Laughter.) The difference between the Noble Lord's pro-
ceeding and his ( Sir R. Peel's) was, that he ( Sir R.
Peel) proposed local Commissionsers with a Central
Board, as he believed that one alone would not be able to
carry the measure properly into effect. He (Sir Robert
Peel) had also proposed a voluntary commutation; but
the Noble Lord had stated that after the expiration of a certain
period, compulsion should be resorted to.—( Hear, hear.)—
If they were going to prescribe principles upon which
commutation was to be effected, it was of the very greatest
importance that the country should understand that those
principles were to be adhered to. (Hear, hear, near.)—
He thought that by encouraging the two parties to
come together, the Tithe owner and the Tithe payer,
it would have greatly increased voluntary commutation ; and
from voluntary commutation they might have extracted the
best principle upon which to apply compulsory commutation.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY doubted much whether sacred his-
tory itself could afford an instance of such a conversion as was
likely to result from the proposition just made by the Noble
Lord. The conversion of political opponents into admiring
adherents was no easy matter to accomplish, but if anything
could effect it the Noble Lord would have to congratulate
himself upon his success.—(A laugh.) Was it too much to
expect that when the Noble Lord proposed securing to a
limited few that property which he (Mr. Harvey) ever had
maintained, and ever would maintain, was the property of the
public, at the small cost of either 25 or 40 per cent., he could
fail in gaining over many adherents to his side of the question?
The landlords of England would be gaining a positive benefit
by the measure ; but the lessees and occupiers of their land
would derive no advantage from it. The plan by which the
Noble Lord proposed to make the calculation lie thought would
be productive of great inconvenience and eventual injustice.
A deficiency would be created, which it would be found very
difficult to make up. Would the landlords of England to
meet it be prepared to disgorge the 25 or 40 per cent. they
were now about to receive? He doubted it. He was of
opinion that the adoption of the plan of the Noble Lord
would render it necessary that the people of England
should consent by their Representatives in that House to au
annual money grant to make up the deficiency created. He
saw no fit and corresponding advantage connected with the
sacrifice proposed. Last nigt, when the subject of the Corn
Laws was before the House, an equivalent was proposed. If
an equivalent we: e offered in the present instance, such as
was offered on that question, he should be able to see some
reason for the proposed relinquishment of the public property.
But, according to the method proposed, he could not see in
what way either the occupier of the soil or the people could be
benefittcd. He was not prepared to give any notice upon the
subject ; for it could not be expected that during the time oc-
cupied by the statement of the Noble Lord, and the attention it
was necessary to bestow, anything but crude suggestions could
be offered. Without, therefore, submitting any specific mo-
tion on the subject he thought it his duty to enter his protest
against this plan of giving up the public property without re-
ceiving in return any corresponding advantage.—( Hear. )
Mr. PRYME expressed his opinion of the great difficulty
that would arise in carrying into execution the plan of the
Noble Lord with respect to the estimate of the value of tithe
in kind, calculated on a period of seven years.
After some observation, unheard, from a Member whose
name we could not learn, and a brief reply from Lord John
Russell, quite inaudible,
Mr. HUME entirely agreed with the Hon. Member for
Southwark (Mr. D. W. Harvey), that tithes were public pro-
perty, apportioned to Parliament to be applied to a practical
purpose. But if his Hon. Friend thought that the compli-
cated question of tithes could be settled without some conces-
sion of all parties, he considered him much mistaken. He
thought that all parties, whatever might be their different opi-
nions on a question like the present, should be ready to con-
cede all they possibly could for the sake of obtaining a settle-
ment. He trusted that Hon. Gentlemen would look to Ire-
land, and take a lesson from the Tithe Bill of 1821 and 1822,
which, instead of settling the question, produced irritation by
procrastinating the settlement. Lord Althorp had said that
the greatest premium that could be paid upon the removal of a
tax, was getting rid of its unpopularity. So he said with re-
gard to this measure. The clergymen might perhaps object
to it, but he thought not. So might the country gentlemen,
but he did not believe they would. It could not be expected
that the Bill should please all parties ; but, looking at the con-
tending feelings with which they had to deal, lie thought his
Majesty's Ministers were right. The Right Hon. Baronet op-
posite ( Sir R. Peel) had proposed there should be one Bill, per-
mitting the voluntary commutation of tithes. He did not think
this was a good plan. Six months was time enough to enable the
tithe payer to decide, and he would therefore have the Bill made
compulsory at once. There was one objection to the plan of
the Noble Lord, which he was afraid was of a more formidable
character. It was in the state of the corn laws. The mono-
poly that existed in the trade of corn, as a consequence of
these laws, had placed the corn market in a most artificial
state. He believed that the effect had been to render the
price of corn lower than it would have been, if it had not been
attempted to keep it up by such means. This would inter-
fere with the estimate to be made of the value of tithes. He
did not know how the question could be most fairly dealt with,
but any plan that could be suggested should have his humble
support.—(Hear, hear.) His Lion. Friend the Member for
Southwark (Mr. D. W. Harvey) had asked what the public
would gain by the Bill? He thought the public would gain
every way, as he was now certain that in every way the pub-
lic were the losers. By the introduction of this measure the
greatest public utility would arise from the facilities that
would be given for applying capital with safety, which would
be fraught with many advantages, particularly that of giving
employment to the agricultural population. This would be a
source of great prosperity to the country, and would operats
the better as coming after that great experiment, the Poor
Law Bill, which lie considered the greatest measure in Legis.
lation that had passed during his public life.—( Hear, hear.)
There was one part of the plan in which he could not concur,
and he did not think it was in accordance with the general
principle of the measure. He alluded to the plan of assessing
hop grounds, gardens, and orchards.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He
would put a case. He would suppose he had a hop ground,
and was accordingly assessed at an additional rate ; his
neighbour was not, and, his ground being free, he culti-
vated it with the advantage of doing it unassessed. He would
have the cultivation of land as free as the manufacture of cot-
ton, as he considered all restraints mischievous. The cultivator
of land, who might spend 1001. an acre on it, was liable to all
the failures that accompanied the employment of capital in
other undertakings. He would thank the Noble Lord if he
would undertake to re-consider that part of the question ; and
he hoped that sonic means might be devised for the protection
of those from the payment of tithe who employed their capital
in such a way. He did not think that when 3001. an acre
might have been spent in rearing a pinery, that tithe should in
that case be paid to the incumbent of the living where it was
situate, when he would never have received a halfpenny for
that land but fur that cultivation. The lion. Member con-
cluded by expressing his intention of supporting the principle
of the Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL made some reply in explanation to
Mr. Hume, but we could not collect the nature of it. The
Noble Lord then said that, with respect to the statement of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, regarding
the method of introducing the question, whether it was most
advisable to do so by resolution, as the Hon. Baronet had done—
by Committee of the whole House, as Lord Althorp had done ;
or by Bill, as he himself proposed, lie thought that the latter
plan was attended with the least inconvenience. Respecting
the questions of compulsory and voluntary commutation of
tithes, he maintained his opinion as to the preference to be
given to the compulsory plan. If the plan were adopted par-
tially, and not generally, it would become hereafter, he consi.
dered, more difficult to settle the question than at the present
moment. A further reason for maintaining this opinion existed
in the fact that the most troublesome instances of tithe com-
mutation settlement were those where all the parties were de-
sirous of an arrangement, but when one obstinately refused
to accede to the terms. He had known a case where eleven
farmers were agreed out of twelve, but where the twelfth
stood out.
Sir E. KNATCHBUL L had closely attended to the state-
ment of the Noble Lord, so anxiously expected by the agricul-
tural interest. But however closely he had attended lie
could not give his opinion upon the merits of the Bill until he
had seen it printed. He thought that with regard to planta-
tion property the Noble Lord would find some difficulty. The
Right Hon. Baronet reserved to himself the right of adopting
any measures in the course of the progress of the Bill-' but
should for the present content himself by merely withholding
any opposition, thinking, at the same time, that the subject
demanded a speedy and final determination.
After a question from two Hora. MEMBERS, whose names we
could not ascertain, leave was given to bring in the Bill.
BILL FOR REGISTRATION OF ALIENS.
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose to move for leave to bring
in a Bill for registration of aliens. We understood the
Noble Lord to state that it was the intention of the Bill to
compel aliens upon their arrival in this country to make a de-
claration as to the country from whence they came, and the
probable place of their residence, which declaration was to be
placed in the custody of a registrar, and kept at the Home
Office. There were many persons without any permanent
business or occupation with regard to whom it was most de-
sirable to ascertain their residence, and the length of their in-
tended stay in the country. The Noble Lord made some
further observations, but from his low tone of voice it was
impossible to collect their purport.
Mr. ROEBUCK put it to the Noble Lord and his col-
leagues whether they had ever considered the question in the
light of no Alien Act at all being in existence ?--(Hear.)
There was a country much larger than England, in which
myriads were entering and changing their residence almost
daily, and yet there was no Alien Act there. He meant the
United States of North America. In that country a stranger
might enter at New Orleans or Boston, and travel through
upwards of twenty different independent States to either of
these places, and yet have no question asked him as to whither
he went or whence he had come. In point of fact, the law as
it stood was inoperative, for aliens traversed the country every
day without paying any attention to its provisions. When he
was in France, he wished, by way of experiment, to create as
much difficulty in the way of exhibiting his passport as pos-
sible, and to that effect he had represented himself as Don
Carlos.—(Laughter.) To show of how little importance pass-
ports were, his representation was taken rather than his de-
scription ; he was told that his passport was false—that he was
not a Member of that Honourable House, but the Spanish Pre-
tender—and in one instance he was even told he was like Don
Carlos.—( Laughter.) He might, for that matter, have been
Don Carlos,:Don:Miguel, or even Fieschi,—(Laughter)—so
little did his passport protect him, and so insufficient was it in
pointing out the individual. The whole system of passports
and registrations was a farce in a good Government; in a bad
one it was inoperative and useless.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that