The Sun.
London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

ELECTION OF LORD MAYOR.

CLOSE OF THE SECOND DAY'S POLL,
Lord Mayor
Sir Peter Laurie 1,130
Alderman Thorpe

days a subject of general conversation has been an overture
The National has the following:—" For some
made to the KING, by Don PEDRO, for negotiating a
marriage between the Duke DE NEMOURS aid the young
Queen Donna Malta. It is added that Louts PHILIP,
in a letter replete with paternal affection and the kindest
sentiments towards the Ex-Emperor and his daughter, de-
clined the proposition made to him."
Extract of a private letter, dated Padang,
May 5 :—" The Dutch affairs in Sumatra are in a dreadful
,state. The natives are rising in rebellion, and attacking
them in every quarter. Natal, Tappanuly, and Ayerburgia
have been successively burnt. No small vessel dare go to
the northward for fear of being taken; and if we had not
lately had a reinforcement of troops, Padang would not be
very safe at present."
The Journal de Paris has the following
" The Qiwtidienne of yesterday announces ' that the
plate which was at St. Cloud at the time of the revolution
of July, after having been saved from pillage by the care
of some servants of the l'alace, has been conveyed to the
King's seat at Neuilly.' This plate was not the property
of CHARLES X., for NAPOLEON made it an heir-loom of
the Crown, and consequently it forms a part of the effects
belonging to the Civil List. It was not pillaged, as the
above paper calumniously says ; and if any portion has
been taken from the rest, it is that which was carried off
by CHARLES X. upon his departure for Cherbourg. What
remains of this plate is intrusted to the charge of the pro-
visional managers of the old Civil List."
CRIME IN TIIEMETROPOLIS.—During the
last ten years, many valuaVe reports on the state of crime
in the metropolis have been made by Committees of the
House of Commons, and much interesting information
has thus been obtained. In the last report it is stated that
there are houses in London where boys are taught how to
pick pockets, and other knavish arts ; and that a slang lan-
guage is used by the thieves and pickpockets, and is known
to every reader of a newspaper, as it has almost become
necessary to learn this vulgar tongue, in order to read the
public reports that are almost daily published. Schools for
teaching thieves, and the use of slang language, are not.
however, devices of modern times. It is on record that
in 1585, the 'Magistracy devoted great attention to the
discovery and suppression of houses frequented by thieves,
and that the RECORDER. complained to the Loan TILE
suRFR, with others of the Bench, of having
discovered
sixteen of these houses in London and Westminster, and
two in Southwark. In one of these, an alehouse, at
Smart's-quay, Billingsgate, kei t by a person of the name
f WOTTON, " a gentleman born, and once a merchant of
good credit, but fallen by time into decay," the art of cut-
ting purses and picking pockets was t night scieutinvally,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HO USE OF COMMONS, SEPTEMBER 29.
The SPEAKER took his seat at Half. past Three o'clock.

THE ROYAL DUBLIN SOCIETY.

Mr. CRAMPTON presented i petition from the Royal
Dublin Society, on the subject Of the annual Parliamentary
grant, which had this session been reduced from 7,0001.
to 5,5001. The Society was one of great public utility in
Ireland, having been established by Royal charter, ever since
1745, for the encouragement of agriculture, manufactures,
and the useful arts. From its earliest formation it had
been the especial favourite with, and under the particular
care and protection of, the Irish Parliament, and it had
continued to be cherished by the Imperial Parliament.
The annual Parliamentary grants load never been less than
7,0001. until the present year, when the officers of the
society heard, with great sorrow and surprise, that
his Majesty's Government had determined to reduce it
to 5,500/. ; those feelings were increased by the fact of
the arrangements which had been made, and expenses for
the year incurred, upon the belief that the grant would
not be reduced. The petitioners complained of the state-
ments that had been made to induce the Government
to take such a step—one of which was that they
were an exclusive body, and were biassed in favour
of Protestants, to the exclusion of Catholics. They denied
having ever been actuated by any such feelings, and stated
that out of 764 applications for admission only four had
been rejected in the space of ten years ; and that to prevent
an undue preference in the selection of officers, they were
always elected by ballot. They also declared, that so far
from political opinions operating in their proceed-
ings, they excluded all political discussion, and that for
thirty years their principal librarian and corrector
of the Press was a Roman Catholic clergyman. The lion.
and Learned Member was sorry that his Hon. Friend the
Secretary of the Treasury was not in his place, but he
hoped that his Majesty's Ministers would take the case of
the petitioners into consideration, with a view of rendering
justice to the Society, and through it to Ireland.
Mr. LEADER concurred in the prayer of the petition-
ers, and regretted that while the British Museum, and
other institutions for similar objects, received large annual
grants, the Royal Dublin Society, which had subsisted on
a small grant of 60001. or 70001. a year, should be de-
prived of even a portion of it.
Mr. LEFROY considered that his Majesty's Govern-
ment should have made inquiry into the benefits derived
from this institution before they took upon themselves to
reduce the grant ; he hoped, however, they would yet
consent to retrace their steps.
Colonel CHAPMAN said his Majesty's Government bad
acted wisely in reducing the grant; he denied that the
Society was productive of so many benefits as had
been stated, or that it was so useful. In proof of his as-
sertion, he would ask what benefit had been conferred
upon the public by the department of mineralogy in the
Society ? He believed they had had a good collection of
minerals for several years, but up to the present time they
load never been classed.—(Hear, from Mr. Hume.)
Mr. RUTHVEN supported the prayer of the petition.
If the Society had not, as had been stated, been produc-
tive of all the benefits which it was capable of doing, his
Majesty's Government should have corrected the mode of
conducting it, and not have sought to extinguish it loy re-
ducing the annual grant.
Lord INGESTRIE was of opinion that the Society had
been most serviceable to Ireland, and he concurred in the
prayer of the petition.
Sir R. BATESON was of opinion that the grant
should not have been reduced, and in proof of the benefits
resulting from the Society, at least in the science of
sculpture, he mentioned two eminent men now in London
who had been instructed in it, one of whom was Mr. Shea.
He hoped his Majesty's Government would not follow the
paltry, pitiful, cold-blooded, hard-hearted doctrines of
those political economists who would propose such a
paltry reduction in the grant to an institution for the en-
couragement of the fine arts.
Mr. HUAIE was surprised at the turn this debate had
taken. All that had been done was not done hastily, nor on
the principles of cold-blooded, pitiful, political economy.
It should be recollected that the reduction was made in
pursuance of a recommendation of a Committee of this
House, whose Chairman was Lord Leveson Gower.—
(Hear, hear.) Before that Committee evidence was given,
from which the House might judge of the importance of
the lectures given to the Society from the fact, that
although the admission was only a shilling, a whole course
of lectures load produced but seven pounds.—(Hear,
hear.) What bad been privately subscribed to the Society?
For when a Society ask Parliament for a grant out of the
public funds, they should be prepared to state what they
intended to give towards it themselves. lie held in
his hand a statement, from which it appeared that for the
last thirty years the donations had only been 19,000/.2
being on the average of about 600/. a year ; while, in the
same period, there hail been paid to it no less than
"46,3411, making an average of 8,0001. a year. The
House was bound in furtherance of a system—not of paltry
cold-hearted economy, but—of the wise distribution of
the public money, to adopt those changes which the Par-
liamentary Committee had recommende.
After a few words from Mr. H. GRATTAN, Mr. HUNT,
and Mr. M. O'CONNELL, the petition was read.
Mr. CRAMPTON, in moving that it be printed,
briefly explained. The ballot had not, he said, been re •
sot ted to from any principle of political exclusion, but in
compliance with the ter ins, as we understood, of the charter
of the institution.
After a few observations from Colonel CHAPMAN and
Sir R. BATESON, the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. S. WORTLEY rose to bring forward his motion
regarding the reduction of the salary of the President of
the Board of Controul. He complained that Ministers
had adopted too hastily the recommendation contained in
the report of a Committee appointed by that House at the
commencement of last Session. The Committee had
. taken evidence as to the duties performed in the other of-
. flees of which they proposed to reduce the salaries; but as
' to the extent of duties performed by the President of the
Board of Controul they had taken no evidence, but had
reduced the salary from 5,000/. to 3,500/. a year, without
t. assigning any reason at all for that reduction. He then
• entered into a history of the Board of Controul, from its

institution in 1784 down to thepre;enttime. Up to the
year 1810, the salary of the President of that Board had
been only 2,0001. a year; but in that year it was raised
to 5,000/. a year, on account of the great increase of busi-
ness which he had to perform, in consequence of the in-
creased acquisitions of territory by the East India Com-
pany. Was there, he would ask, in the increase of ter-
ritory which had taken place since that time, any thing
which would justify the reduction which had been recently,
made in the salary of this officer? The Committee ap-
pointed to inquire into the salaries of public officers had
recommended that the salaries of the Secretaries of State
should be reduced one-sixth, whilst at the same time they
recommended that the salary of the President of the Board
of Controul should be reduced to the extent of 7001. be-
yond that proportion, although the duties of this office
were quite as important as those which were performed by
the Secretaries of State. Under these circumstances, he
felt it his duty to move a resolution declaratory of the in-
expediency of reducing the salary of the President of the
Board of Controul below 5,000/. per annum. The Hon.
Member concluded with moving a resolution to the effect
which he had stated.
Mr. C. GRANT said that he would not enter into any
diseuasion on the present occasion, not from any want of
respect to the Hon. Member who had just addressed the
House, but because he considered the question as already
settled. When Government referred the question of the
salaries of public officers to the consideration of a Com-
mittee, they resolved to abide by the decision of the
Committee, unless it appeared that flagrant injustice would
result from their doing so. He had no right to assume
that the Committee had decided on the question of the
salary of the President of the Board'of Controul without
due investigation. When they decided that the salary
ought to be reduced, he acquiesced in the decision without
urging a single objection. He considered it his duty to
pursue the same line of conduct still. The whole question
of the Indian Government must shortly come under the
consideration of Parliament, and that would be a fitting
time for agitating the question, if it should then be con.
sidered necessary.
Air. 11 UT EINTEN was of opinion that the principle of

economy ought to be applied to the Indian Government as
well as to that of this country. He believed that the
duties of the office in question would be as efficiently per-
formed for 3,5001. as for 5,0001.

Sir G. WARRENDER thought that some reduction

ought to be made in the salary of the President of the
Board of Controul, but was of opinion that the Committee
had recommended too extensive a reduction.

Mr. C. FERGUSON could see no reason why the
salary of the President of the Board of Coutroul should be
reduced in a greater proportion than that of any other
public officer. He considered the office as important as
any in the State, and that it ought to be filled permanently
by a great statesman. The interests of India suffered
great injury from the office becoming vacant on every
change of Ministry.
Mr. ROBINSON said, that if he thought the effi&ency
or dignity of the office would be impaire I by the reduc-
tion of salary, he would vote for the moti3n, but he could
nut for a moment believe that this would be the case.

Mr. HUME said, that the Hon. Member who-brought

forward the motion had adverted to the Indian arrO
f -
;he
revenue, as a ground for augmenting the salary °
President of the Board of Controul. Upon tbe,_.„9ver
principle the salary of the Chancellor of the Elcuriwiel
ought to be exceedingly augmented. If large sar:o•
could command great talents, he would not object to to
ing them ; but all his experience tended to convinceto
that this was not the cage. He thought the Cool'
had drawn a fair line, and he would not quarrel wit' ,1
Ile condemned the frequent changes in this office 0
meet
injurious, because it was impossible any hunts° tao
could enable a man to obtain a thorough knowledge °E

business during the time he was employed. got
Mr. IRVING said that, in his opinion, the g
Officers of State, instead of being too highly paid' 117 t
remunerated on too contracted a scale. He thought lof
the Committee had gone too far in the recommendation
of
reductions ; and if the power to propose an increase, j,
salaries had been given to them, he would have Pc;
ready, in certain instances, to have voted for additional

munertion.
Mr.a T. P. COURTENAY said he had been for si%teelo:
long and weary years attached to the office which woe bt
subject of the present motion; and, therefore, he 60,
that he was competent to state his opinion with refereell
to it. He had marked, with astonishment—he 1'!
almost say with indignation—the conduct adopted 11;
Majesty's Ministers on this question. Ministers thernsel,
had caused the appointment of the Committee which P
posed these reductions; and yet not one of them, e0r0;
his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Giant), had got uP rf
say one word in support of them. He agreed in e!ee,
thing which his Hon. Friend the Member for Booir,
(Mr. S. Wortley) had said as to the difficult and art
duties which the President of the Board of Controul ht
to perform—duties which were equal to those that de
volved upon any Minister of State.
Lord ALTHORP said the Hon. Gentleman who 11)

lust sat down had made it a cause of complaint that ;it
Minister had delivered his sentiments on this question•
could assure the lion. Member that he had not intended
le t it pass without expressing his opinion ; but he tvrt
anxious, in the first instance, to hear the sentiments'
other gentlemen. When the Committee was formed
inquire into the amount of salaries, for the purpose of wire,
during them, it was deemed expedient, instead of oPs__.,
mencing with the inferior offices, to begin with mon
of the superior ones—not from any impression e";
his mind that those offices were overpaid, but beard
that the public seemed to believe that they were. He it
not think that the persons holding office were them e!,
proper to decide on the subject of salaries, and therefore lb
had been referred to a Committee of that Hons.. lbeltil
the Committee had recommended certain reductions_sw,
it was fair to say that the Government was responsibly tee
their adoption. If the recommendations of the Co
appeared to be unfavourable to the public service, al;
the Committee might be blamed for making such recSair
mendations, still the Government must come in fur that,
share of censure in acceding to them. He admitted, ps
official salaries should not be so low as to exclude pelh
of small property from taking situations connected %Id
the Government of the country. Such a system o'er
take away from different classes of society a strogo,
couragement to attain office, and it would throw tbe,rge
vernment entirely into the hands of persons who bad `acte•
private fortunes. This, he conceived, would be WI ~h 1
trimental to the public service. At the same time bec-0,.
not acquiesce in the doctrine, that salaries should be 0
stituted as to induce individuals to make the acquireni;
of office a profession. There were many reasons quite to
dependent of emoluments which induced individuals
take office. Gentlemen frequently felt themselves b 0 el;
not only without any desire on their part, but absolub-ite
against their will,—acting under a strong sense et I'LL'
duty,—to take office.—(Hear, hear.) He did not, P°lol
ever, think (in reference to the observation which be
heard, that the pursuit of office ought to be made a 81sefe
,iii
of profession)—he did not think that it was likely tbatiiie,
man would thus rear his son with a view to publicita t
Ministers frequently change: when they did, urn"; sf%
be vacated ; and therefore it was impossible, unarta—in,
the tenure was, that the amount of salary could induce
dividuals to enter into the public service in high situatiuter
It had been said that this office should be filled by a situates' it
man of the first class. That he admitted. But th,700
L
was argued, that he should not be suddenly removed 'l,O
office. This was an inconsistency ; for it was quite :
that an individual, coming in with a particular adou3l-r
tration, could not remain in office when that adrdloistir,,
don went out and gave place to men of different princiP;:f
The labour attached to the office he allowed to be Ye g
ths
great, but if they could, for 3,5001. a year, obtain I
office the services of an individual of first-rate talent.
j'a
cpoonrstteirtniidcee.dreFetbooanßtimßtheEneydsawr,ti.ooauns boolffnotophteilblcoieonjuuist,tniilfijatettieeltiiTne n(saolitieatigyr.re)plr;
to avail themselves of that talent. He should therefore sur.
posed, even taking into consideration the trifling Patr°°lod
attached to the situation, was inadequate, when theylo„r
to the duties to be performed when compared with on
great offices in the State. The Hon. Baronet complain);
that the affairs of India were too much neglected in 01
House ; and he expressed a wish that the good old ell't?1,0
would again be resorted to, of having an annual 1014
budget brought before them. Economy in India had
ropg
spoken of. The Company had begun there at the
end. They were screwing down the poor civil and sri'oe
tary officers in order to enable their revenues to fue't
enormous debts which some Governors-General had ec°,4
tracted. The European and the native army were b°
disgusted at the petty reductions that bad been made. of
Mr. A. SANDFORD supported the recommendati°
the Committee. ppot
necSesirsaty Ni
nEoWr
dPe
rO Rt
oTseacrug argued that
he
plraorifeer s aplearrfie,rsrrore-efi,fo!
official duties. The East India budget was brought btp
ward by the Earl of C.rlisle, then Lord Morpetli)
the salary of President of the Board of Controul was
less than it was at present ; but from the time tbss,,o
salary was increased in ISO 7, no Indian budget had e
laid before the House. He never would consent that '
pursuit of office for emolument should be turned rot
profession.

Mr. S. WORTLEY replied.
The resolutions were then negatived withont a dill°
GRAND JURY LAWS.—(IRELAND.)
Mr. STANLEY rose, pursuant to notice, to 111°Y,e ut
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Grand Jury Ls",:,,io
Ireland. It was not, he said, his intention to do '
the present Session than to submit the measure to the
sideration of those who were most interested in a sr,sti
alteration of the existing system. The subject %%Its iesl
he confessed, with respect to which he had little pr5...4
experience or knowledge, but he had the advantage of 91%1,
ing in the presence of those who were possessed of "ioi
For a long period of time, year after year, this qo'i,
had been pressed on the House, hut no specific 111e351;1
so far as he knew, had ever been laid on their table. bd
Right Hou. Member for Tamworth—(Sir R. Peel)lild
stated, that when he held the office which was nose "di,
by him—(Mr. Stanley)—this was a subject th3itc;o,
manded his most serious consideration. In 1818,
1825, and 1827, Committees had been appointed CO cirr
sider of various matters connected with the state df pot
land. They had called the attention of the Govero;,.
to the state of the Grand Jury Laws ; and the last C.°jos
mittee observed, that there was no difference of 01)!4teil
respecting the defects of the present system, and P°)°,oo
out the necessity of placing the civil and criminal
of the Grand Julies of Ireland on a better foundl by
By certain returns which had been recently furnisW;
the
found that the sums of money levied by, and placed atD $
disposal of, the Grand Juries, was enormous. Wit'der
given time the sum levied amounted to 750,0001; ;0019
170,000/. of whieh the Grand Juries had no cent' ve
and for the expenditure of which they were se
responsible. But, making every deduction, tekiDg
arils
from the sum levied all that they had no power over
00,
there remained quite enough within their immediate re tlse
to create temptation and to excite suspicion as t°,ol
wanner in wh ch it was disposed of. In considerlot
the Grand Juries of Ireland, let gentlemen take care of
to suppose that those bodies had any resemblance CO,
Grand Juries of England. The duties of Irish 0:101
Juries were not confined to criminal proceedings;
otiei
formed a very small and inconsiderable part of the affect'
which devolved upon them. They had to carry into e
tbt
to regulate, and to controul, without responsibilityt3v)
whole internal taxation of the country.—(Hear, bev /
They levied taxes which they did not themselves P9ljet'
(Hear, hear.) They fixed what work was to be Tl,OOl/
taken—the persons by whom it was to be undertake r,)
and the expense which should be incurred.—(Hear,DbotiitY
All this was concluded in secret and without respol'i.el'ttpt
—(Hear, hear.) And would it be believed, °live
whole of these extensive duties were to be perforlr'e
s 701"
nosily in three or four days ?—(Hear, bear.) it ej3iy t`?
possible that they could do their duties satisfactobri 014
the country; it was impossible for the country to heest,,
that they were adequate to such a task.—(Hear' „whier
On looking to a return, from six counties, of the °::.‘iattif
of presentments and bills of indictment, civil and Piwyclici
with which the Grand Juries had to deal during "ersV
tie found that they amounted to 5,369; and the breed
number of days appropriated to their decision was nd to
tour; so that it appeared that 344 presentraentstha, sat'
dietinents were carried through on each day• citrai./.
Was it proper, when the lives and properties of instl
oA
were in jeopardy, that busiuess should be so,,arrle, ?

mlian rill ale
salary °l,'l a
me
Jpon the ver
the Eleblriel
sa
large -,c,
t obj,ct P:lni
:o convince °,
the Conlin
quarrel witgo'
.
S office
,010
human siyis
n ow ledge °

• the gre°
non, . ,
joi
bly Pala' thtl
le thought of
ommendatO ~f
an increase;
)111c1 have r
)r additional r

been for sixteet;
which %vas
.ore, he tho' .
o with refer"
en t —he svli,
adopted hYt,
stern theme";
ttee which
of them, eøilso
had got uP
• ve.
agreed to 'lv(
brr for Boo'
ult and a rdu°
pf Coutroul
,o those that °

pot
salaries were of
perfornlan("efor
was brought 4,e0
Morpetb) _
mtroul waso,o
he time 08'10,4
budget bad
tlie
consent tbst
be turned 0:

,ithont a divi°'
ELAND) • for,
tice, to mare
et
and Jury Lalio
ore
ion to do r° cor
leasure to the A
ested in a Wept,
subject WO °id
lad little Praeol
!vantage of
)ossessed of fop
ear, this qu'%,e,
specific 01'3511,1
their table. b 5
R. Pee
it R. 6
oh was 00 0.
subject ths!,49),
In 1818, 00'
appointed to ire,
the state 01
e
f the Goverooll,
and the last Oirlep
erence of 01).304,1
stem, and Ps'rloo
d criminal patioo,
,etter found 3, bt
ntly furnishelltt tbe
, and placedtbi $
mous.
Wi
offer
750,0001. ; 01,
had no ontillot
they were
lasi
tion, taking
stt
power over b,
r immediate rear e
thf
ispicion to
In considerild
len take care Poe
esemblance t°
es Of Irish 61;01
proceedings;
ii.,60
part of the
to carry into e'ibt
responsibility:of)
vit./
themselves P9ider
was to be °Do/
dertake )
be un beard
tout resPo°,.° t CIO
believed, t'3joe
be perferaws
hear.) It tr 3., to
;.‘; satisfactori:lie
country to hear,)riper
ies, of the oicol.oo
civil and P.
it during °lle rtie
and the av e
c
; isio Was thre .0,
_ an
sentroents, sat'
c
h day t'"el.oo
artier of of indict' ?
,arried

Dirt
not this prove the absolute necessity which existed for
an effectual alteration in the system ? The effects of the
esstern were such as might a priori be expected. The
Grand Jurors made arrangements and accommodations
with each other ; they were' divided into Committees :
": Yon know what concerns this county," said one, " and
I knnw what relates to that." So that if no dishonest
motives could be imputed to them, the consequence of this
system was that the Grand Juries were neither more nor
lees than a mode of carrying into effect, at the public ex-
pense, the objects of private individuals.—(Hear.) The
Grand Juries were the persons who laid on the money ;
selom :
an
who :who were those that paid it ? The Grand Juries were
rnally a
selected from the landed proprietors ; but they
were
•oceasionally agents of absentee proprietors—occa.
o
persons of an inferior class. But were they the
Petri . pennons upon to pay ? By no means. The persons
°
"'Led upon to pay were not the landed proprietors, but the
every char
tenants.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said that
charge upon the tenant came eventually upon the
landlord, who could get only a proportionate rent. Perhaps
r
the might be true in the case of yearly tenants ; but where
tesme ," a permanent occupant, or a lessee for a long
°I years, and where there was the strongest stimulus
coutde
lauded proprietor to g.et as much out of the land as he
ie„ fell on the occupying tenant, who got no sort of
ihe'elen It was not now the practice to ascertain beforehand
seorieiut° of money proposed to he laid out in a public
y .1 , and the general opinion was, that favouritism pre-
Di,.'"fed• The works were performed in a slovenly and im-
itr.eet mnner, and there was no check upon the expen-
uudee after the money had been granted; and works were
bet rtaluin under the pretext of being of public utility,
might for purposes of private advantage, which it
Thl'el he thought that gentlemen would be ashamed of.
an i 'tight lion. Gentleman here cited from the report
ex n'tence iu the county of Mayo, where money had been
wratled for the professed purpose of making a bridge,
utillieti•' when completed, was found to be of no public
Ile ," and was converted into an embankment. The
tnteu-e might be astonished to hear of a bridge being made
it wen embankment, and might wonder how it was done ;
inh,°Ply, as a witness said, by stopping the arch—
tuhnel")--•permitting the tide to retire at low water, and
1t.,,,41ng it at high water by a floodgate.—(A laugh.)
tithe's utterly useless as a bridge, for there was no road on
Aarehie--(A laugh)—and a witness stated that there
also„ ;° rutcasion for a road, fir there was another bridge
Iv,. quarter of a mile off.—(A laugh, and " hear.")
the might be an exaggerated case ; but it was notorious
esi,iir(nule were made for no other purpose than that they
teen's"'t g° by this gentleman's house, or through that gentle-
/4demesne.—( Hear, hear.) Ills Hon. Friend, the
akettilther for Mayo, cheered at this ; but he did not under-
-4 Whether he admitted or denied it.
mr IlliOWNE—ph, I approve of it all.
se st STANLEY continued. He should now proceed
to prate the main principles of the measure he was about
th'. prate
He would state again, that he did not present
I;itase-,-,.° measure that had been fully m mtured, but as
11`"ung tangible, which he could submit to the public
e 137 of remed f r the evilveal was his intention to
ribit.ato,iroenthis session
y o
Bill than to mat this voluminous
left): 'l.t be printed, in order that he might receive that
nd upon the subject of which he stood in need,
The Measure would be, in the first place, the consolidation
it
,no less then 65 or 70 Acts of Parliament : and should
cit.? carried into effect, it would become a manual for
their" Jurors, a summary of their duties, and a guide for
tbe.conduct.—(llear.) The nex t object was to separate
pp, civil from the criminal business of Grand Juries. He
before
that public works of every description should,
milted
being brought before the Grand Jury, be sub-
e,4 to the magistrates at special sessions, and lie pro-
'' 40 to give to the magistrates an absolute and a positive
.leptit• ,
awl
,l‘c on works unfit to be undertak
wen, and to take
- 'ng• 3 from Grand Juries altogether the power of sanctien-
a
°Y projects which the special session might deem un-
-Bt'eessary, He proposed that the whole of the special
i •
el°ll presentments should be disposed of by the Grand
Jur
si Y; that notice should be given to the igh
n...."riff of the•county of the amount of businessesexted, and that the High Sheriff should fix a day
—ore than ten days, nor less than three
• f Jury to assemble to consider
p or t ram
th'le criminal business; and the tallies should be so struck
at there should he a Grand Jury when the Judge came
()
:he Assizes for ae disposal of the criminal business of
Ju'untY. With respect to the qualification of a Grand
that was a point upon which he had not made up
mind. Be did not, therefore, propose at present to
htt'ke any alteration in the qualification which now existed,
devisede it was extremely doubtful whether there could be
C,, a bona fide security for the parties being in the
.gmer Class and the attempt might prevent their having
etlY az, Grand July at all. He proposed that it should be
pe-andatory and compulsory on the High Sheriff to select
Le'tae" from each barony in the county as Grand Jurors,
"e would impose no further restrictions upon the s.e-
biZo than that the twenty-three first names in the list
ne hi include one from each barony in the county. He
Poict „Per°P.ised that in each county there should be ap-
Wliont';_' °ne or more competent and experienced surveyors,
in enould be examined by an unpaid board of engineers
tteinuti', and who should be attached to the different
gteheee, and removable upon the complaint of the
in).l,-;" Jury, He proposed that they should be ap-
thlted by the Lord Lieutenant, because he thought
ands 4 great power would reside in these surveyors,
t4,6reat confidence. must necessarily be reposed in them,
Pei,„uglit not to be dependent upon, or to receive their ap-
ce.a4nent from, the Grand Juries. He proposed that the
open Jury, when sworn, should hold their sittings in
tnedie Court—(Hear)—that on any presentment being
they should hear evidence in open Court—( Hear)
f ae-10, When the decision came to be made, if any dif-
tihenee,! 6f opinion existed, there could be no objection to
verdict retiring to a private room, and then return their
The Grit' it' Open Court. The next point was of importance.
Poet -,r4nd Jury, having heard full evidence, and the re-
ef e* the surveyor, should be first called upon to decide
coat kesentineet be desirable, and secondly, the maximum
t4),,:f the work ; and all works should lie pet formed by
t° th", by sealed tenders, to be opened by the secretary
levy e Grand Jury, and, proper security being given, the
tl,:'t tender should be invariably adopted. He proposed
tkoitile contractors should be bound to pay all persons
Iles-sPed by them in money payments alone—(Hear,
illtilei."anti that the contractors should not receive one
‘l'mstkLg' except on the report of the surveyor that the
Plas was satisfactorily done. He proposed, in the next
Witi.,;:°do away altogether with the office of supervisor and
it th ne duty of overseer of the reads, vesting their powers
tin ge contractors, and in the county surveyor as a cheek
ex a contractors. With respect to accounting for the
tias.,4lhture of money, the present practice was by affi-
l'h'e 1,6 f the party, which he should altogether abolish.
taie,,'lmght lion. Gentleman here pointed out, from the
ltatnTe of Mr. Nimmo, the evils of this practice. An
i el in the present system was, that the prisons who
tee 4 the tax were not the persons who paid it. A re-
,lllo4l,lProPosed was, that the system of Grand Juries
Ole; ,he altered by snaking them an elective body.—
tot,;;;e , hear, from Mm. O'Connell.) But he could not re-
-Ivl,-" Lis Mind to making Grand Juries elective bodies,
thee:4 there was an expenditure of money, and where
E'er,: Were opportunities of favouring individuals. The
keilve system, he feared, would lead to almost as much
the g as existed now. The only fair mode of making
‘)11 -,4'c'irnposers become the tax-payers was, that the
watt cess should be charged, not on the occupying tet-
Assn,: "tit, with some exceptions, on the landlord, or
Iligl::4l7'tlY interested in the property improved. h The
i 4 desn'rri. Gentleman concluded by stating, e.fe.lt
.interest
in this measure, and that he reyeced in
zhaved' had the means of advancing so far in it. lie
.11.1 N-;
awe
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Grand
lllr ,11 of Ireland.
of the' e).%I'SE expressed much satisfaction at the speech
°Peet o—eight Ron. Gentleman. Ireland had now a pro-
tthieh being relieved from one of the grossest abuses
Noe oceny country Lad ever laboured under. The real
ezheaa the abuse was, tint Ireland had been ruled by an
'MPG and that the Irish public had no voice in the
Prin,sltlon of
taxes, contrary to on: of the fundamental
*50111" of our Government.' Tue evils did not arise
Should " Grand Juries but from the system itself. He
tijeidCfliks to separate 'entirely the financial from the. ju-
%elt unctions—to vest the right of assessment in a
LilittaL,boards and to confine the duty of the Jo:), to cri-
Nen esatteta.
The measure of the Right Hon. Gentle-
klustWOubl correct many abuses, but ulterior proceedings
kis e adopted.
tgoiebli-t'll4l-7....Tenthought that the measu.re introduced by the
.erewe's.G. tleman was not sufficient to.me.et. the evils
melted, whilst it was inconsistent. with his denun-
, of the enormities to be effaced.
J'
loudly ft% LIVIN satd, that the pi esent system was as
e°nlti be conceived, and that an amelioration was
"eer t eine(' for. He supported the motion of the Irish
"Y.
r e,
easere IsATESCIN would be happy to support any
ever that could correct the existing System, which was
staext 3' respect reprehensible, although he thought the
The Hehtus of the Irish Secretary somewhat overcharged.
444—,, ,n• member went into numerous statements of gross
Pesei4 Ireland. Ile should be happy to support many
kr°, II
the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure.
I. GRATTAN thought it quite time to correct

' the abuses which this measure was intended to meet. He
thought, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
measure, in some respects, was a mere alteration where
more thorough changes would be advisable.
Mr. LEADER entered into many details to show the
evils of the present Grand Jury system of Irelam%
Mr. BLACKNEY was deeply sensible of the abuses of
the present system, but doubted the efficacy of the present
remedy.
Mr. RUTHVEN regretted that any circumstances could
have induced the Government to postpone so long the in-
troduction of a fneasure so important as the present.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
The report of the Committee of Supply was then brought
up, and agreed to.
The other Orders of the Day were then agreed to, and
the House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

Sir Jolla; HoßirousE moved the re committal of the
Vestry Bill at near two o'clock on Thursday morning in
the House of Commons. Lord ALTHORP and the Minis-
ters generally supported him, but Mr. Ross, Mr. GOUL-
BURN, Sir RICHARD VSE'VYAN, and others, opposed the
discussion at that hour, and it was, after some debate, ar-
ranged that the subject should be brought on positively at
four o'clock on Friday, September 30 (this day). The
friends of the Select vestry arid Anti-Reform system will
muster strongly against the Bill, and it is therefore hoped
the supporters of the measure will not fail to attend.

HOUSE OF LORDS, SEPTEMBER 29.
The LORD CirnweEr,Lon. took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.

TITHES.

The Archbishop of CANTERBURY gave notice that he
proposed to move the third reading of the Tithes Compo-
sition Bill to-morrow.
LUNATICS' BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR stated that he had now
to present to their Lordships a Bill for the better care and
protection of lunatics who came under the cognizance of the
Coutt of Chancery, and for the establishing a better mode
of hearing and determining questions of lunacy. It was
one of the three measures of Chancery Reform which he
ha I introduced in the course of the last session. It was
proposed to have these questions tried before one of the
Judges in the ordinary way of trials at Common Law, and
this would enable the Court of Chancery to dispense with
the Commissioners in Lunacy, by whom such questions
were at present tried. By this means much expense and
delay would he prevented, and the risk of mis- decision
very considerably diminished. He moved that the Bill be
read a first time.—Read a first time, and ordered to be
printed.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY presented a petition from the
Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council of Linlithgow,
from the Dean of Guildry of the same place, from Queens-
ferry, from Kirkliston, and from a parish in Edinburgh,
praying their Lordships to pass the Bill as speedily as
possible.
_ . _