The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-01 00:00:00

froturn which was to be had for the great sacrifices they had
snide ? Of what use was the Reform Act to the country if
the House of Lords were to reject and treat with contempt
every measure which was sent up to them for the purpose of
realising those fruits which the Reform Act gave the promise
of ?—(Hear. ) Who was to direct the proceedings of the Go-
vernment—the minority or the majority ? Were the people
to yield to the Lords, or the Lords to the people ?—( Cheers. )
But they were told that matters were to go on in this way for
another year. The doors of tlrit I-louse, then, were to be_
closed without their having grented a single
.re.quest of
the
people of Ireland. With ';;.hat confidence coul.tt the rere.
sentatives of the people of Ireland go 'Leek to their censti-
tuents and tell them that this House %yes willing to grent them
what they asked, 'Jut the other House refused to listen to theie
just demands. `;l7asthere one single measure of reform which the
people of Ireland had a right to expect, and which this House
'was dispoeed to give them, that the House of Lords would
consent to pass ? Till means were found to compel thees
to act in conformity with this House, there should Wit be
Deice—there ought not to be peece—either in Ns country
or in Ireland.—( Cheering,) He trusted filet the people of
this country would rouse themselves and demand for their fel-
low citizens in Ireland that justice av'hich we were pledged
to afford them. The Noble Lord said there was hope; but
what a mockery was it to people who were suffering as they
were, that there was distant hope that the time might come
when justice would be awarded them ? He differed with the
Noble Lord as to pis grounds of hope. He believed that no-
thing was to bre expected from the House of Lords till the
Peers were made responsible to the people. There existed no
responsibP;ity of the Lords to the people at this moment. The
only greund of confidence, therefore, that he felt, was his be-
lief t'eat measures would be taken to force the Lords to con-
cur with this House in its views of the necessity of giving Re-
fo-..rn to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I must say that I did not expect,
on this day, that,we should have been called on to take into
consideration the amendments of the House of Lords ; still
less did I expect that we should be called on without notice, and
en the instant, to pronounce in favour of the rejection of those
amendments.—( Hear.) At the same time, though I shall re-
cord my dissent ;rein the proposition of, the Noble Lord,
though I cannot consent to postpone for three months my
consideration of the amendments, still I shall not think it
necessary to record my dissent by means of a hostile vote.
At the eame time, while it is my conviction that justice to so
important a matter demands delay, it is only fair to observe, tha.'.: in the speech made by the Noble Lord, this seems to be
neirnitted. In the first place, the Noble Lord himself at-
taches great importance to some of the declarations con-
tained in the reasons of the House of Lords, and he has
said there are some expressions of the House of Lords which
make him hope for en amicable settlement of this question
at a future period. If, then, that be the Noble Lord's view—
if that be his deelaeation with respect to the reasons submitted
by the Lords, it would be but decorous to afford us every op-
portunity for considering them—(hear, and cheers)—and we
ought not at once, hastily, and perhaps after not a very in-
telligible reading of this answer, to be called upon at once for
an immediate—a final determination.—( Hear, hear.) Another
rease,a for delay—one that in my opinion makes it most de-
airAle is, that I think the Noble Lord has placed a most
emroneous interpretation upon the document of the Noble
treed to which he refers. For instance, the Noble Lord says
that one of the objections made by the Lords is, that the Cor-
porations are to be confined to 12 cities and towns. The Noble
Lord procured considerable laughter amongst his friends by
declaring that the Lords wish to extend Corporations—that
they were the supporters of more Corporations than even the
Commons were desirous of giving. The Noble Lord stated
that the objection of the Lords was that there were not more
than twelve towns that were to have Corporations. I think
that the Noble Lord, in stating this, came to a most erroneous
conclusion.—(hear)—aid if erroneous, it is only an additional
reason for his having taken the precaution of having these rea-
sons of the Lords. printed. The House of Lords, I may ob-
serve, in the :source that they have adopted, have taken one
that is in cemtormity with the opinions of no inconsiderable
minority in this House, a minority certainly—but no inconsi-
derable minority in respect to numbers, in respect to station,
with regard to respectability, and I am bound also to say (of
course I do not refer to myself) in respect to ability.—
(Chcers from the Opposition Members.) Upon the first day
of this session the question was discussed whether we would
bind ourselves, by any preliminary proceeding, to extend
-the principles, such as we had given them, of Corporate Re-
form, to England and Scotland, also to Ireland. On that
occasion the Lords, by their amendment, carried without a
division, declared that they would give no such pledge. In
the Commons I moved an amendment, similarly expressed
with that adopted in the Lords, and declining to give that
pledge. The amendment was negatived only by a majority of
41.—( Hear, hear.) I believe that the course I then pro-
posed—speaking with all respect of the decisions of the House
of Commons—l believe that the course I then proposed to
pursue, a course in which I consented to one great principle
of Abe Bill, namely, the dissolution of existing Corporations,
the extinction of the monopoly of power confined to one
party, making a sacrifice of the present power held by one
party in the state--I think that the principle proposed, in
making that sacrifice, in dissolving those Corporations, but at
the same time declining to establish other Corporations, under
the apprehension that the evils would not be removed but trans-
ferred, I did, and I do believe, that the proposition that was then
made by me was the correct one._( Hear, and cheers from the
Opposition side.) I concur, therefore, in the course which
the House of Lords has adopted.—( Hear.) It was conformable
to the course which I took myself, and I should be ashamed
if, in the face of a majority, I shrank from that avowal. ---( Hear,
and cheers.) I concur, too, in the substance of the conces-
sions made by the -House of Lords. The Noble Lord says
that the House of Lords 'nave rejected from this Bill its vital
and popular principles,,—(Hear, hear, from Ministerial Mem-
bers.) I must say '.;nat a greater exaggeration of a difference
between us never yet was heard or made in the House of Com-
mons.—( Heart hear, and cheers from the Opposition benches.)
What is the extent of the difference between us ? The Noble
Lord Protases that there shall be Corporations in twelve cities
and tow ns. This he does with the assent of the House of
Commons. The Noble Lord makes a proposal of very cum-
bersome, and in my opinion, very objectionable arrangement.
But then the Noble Lord proposes that 22 other towns and
cities, which have already the option, if the people choose to
;adopt it, shall have the 9th Geo. IV. Now, whether they
shall or not desire Commissioners under that Act, they are
compelled to adopt that Act. But at the same time the Noble
Lord leaves all the existing Corporations in possession of
such power as they hold now, after having lost the manage-
ment of the Corporate funds. The Lords permit the towns
and cities in Ireland, not as we (lid, to take the Act, whether
they wished it or not, but the Lords allow that the inhabitants
shall call for the operation, of the Act the 9th George IV.
It was objected in (:',ebate here, that supposing the in-
habitants called for the operation of the 9th of George IV.
still the properV of the Corporations was to be vested in
Commissionrers appointed by the Crown. Of all the objec.
irons, urged against the Lords' amendments this was the
most strongly pressed. The Lords, by their amendments,
Nee left to the inhabitants of cities and towns, not al.
ready governed by a local Act, the option of having the
Sth George IV. So far they insisted in their first amend-
ments, and that Corporation property should be vested in
'Commissioners. But it is now decided that if any town is
now governed, by the 9th George IV., or shall be hereafter
governed in each of these cases, then the Corporation pro-
perty is vested in Commissioners chosen by the popular
voice. The Noble Lord admits that this is an important
admission.—( Hear, hear, from Lord John Russell,) But
then the Noble Lord has been complaining that the vital
and, popular principle of the Bill is extiagnished by the
blouse of Lords. These two declarations are inconsistent.
Though I dissent from the proposition of the Noble
Lord for the amendments being summarily rejected, I
am bound to say that in the present temper of mind, in
respect to this Bill, I do not.see any advantage to be obtained
from a postponement of the discussion.—( Hear, hear.) lam
bound to say so, I do not think that any nearer approach
could be made towards a settlement by protracted Conferences.
The Noble Lord complains of the animadversions of my No-
ble
Friend upon a speech delivered here by the Noble* Lord.
The Noble Lord ought to recollect, he ought to reflect that
if any offence has been committed, he has been the first to
commit one. I put it to the Noble Lord, if a Peer of Par.
liament, admitted by courtesy to listen to our debates, had
gone into the House of Peers, and there declared that he had
heard with his own ears, " hisce auribus," certain expressions,
and commented upon those expressions, and charged him with
having used these expressions, I appeal to the Noble Lord,
whether or not he would think a Member of the HOUR(' of
'Commons, so charged in the Heine of Lords, would not, in-
:stead of involving himself ill a question of artier, or appealing
to privileges, adntinister such reasoned{;, chastisement as was
in his power to Hear, cheers, and laughter.) lam
sure tnat is the course that would be pursued by the Noble
Lord.—(Rear.) The Noble Lord has expressed his sur-
prise that on the second night of the debate there was no re-
ference to the speech delivered by my Noble Friend. He
seem', to think that a former colleague of my Noble Friend
ongat on the second night of the debate to have interfered
Wah some explanation on the subject. Surely the Noble
Lord is not under the impression that I slunnk from
"'fending my Noble Friend from imputations twit upon him.
The Noble Lord refers, I suppose, to the explanations called
for from me by the Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary.
'Upon that occasion I declined to give one, and was asked this
question—Do you subscribe to these words ?Do you adopt
them ? My answer is am here to explain my own senti-
'rents and my own opinions.—( Hear, hear, and loud cheers
from the Opposition Members.) I have frequent opportuni-
ties of explaining my individual opinions. No one is to apply
to me Words used by another, and then to ask me whether I
subscribe to those words ?—( Hear, hear.) I had not heard
OM 'words. I asked for an interpretation of them, and I got
ful' my Noble Friend's answer, that he wished to give an ex-
Planation of them himself. My Noble Friend wished to re-
serve himself For the opportunity of explaining. them himself in
the mat', of Lords.—( Hear, hear, and cheers from Minis-
1. terialNfi.embers.) I do not know the purport of that cheer.
7".
ch' oble Friend has explained them.—( Hear, and repeated
ers from Ministerial Members.) At least, he has put his
bwrl construction upon them.—(Cheers.) There is only one
other point referred to by the Noble Lord to which I feel it
no% necessary to advert—that in which the Noble Lord spoke
of certain alterations taking place, and his despair of the main-
teen4nee of the British Constitution. I confess I heard with
'cep regret this from the Noble Lord—( Hear, hear)—from
4 Minister of the Crown, too, that he had reason to despair of
the maintenance of the British Constitution.—( Hear, hear,
disdainald
cheersany
M
from Opposition embers. ) For myself, Sir, I
;such despair.—( Cheers.) I do not entertain a
doubt that the British Constitution will be upheld.—( Hear,
and cheers.) You say you must not refuse to do justice to
Ireland. No doubt you must not. But then you have no
tight to prescribe to us, to enforce upon us, that which is your

opinion constitutes justice.---(Cheers from the Opposition
Members.) Hon. Gentlenten may say that Noble Lords
shall not wantonly exercise this potter; Hots, Octitlemen
may declare that they shall not eketeist the privileges with
which they were vested by the Constitution for their
benefit. No doubt they are not to rl-
Fponsible for the power thee -- .o. They erg
ve-
to constituents. .:Aereise. They are not 1'01)01141v
their - e are ; they are responsible to nod—to
eOrisciences—( Hear 1 from Mr. O'Connell, an'l
laughter)—and to their intelligesit fellow-coentryinte.--
( Cheers from the Opposition Members.) And no doubt they
feel and act upon that responsibility.---( Hear.) I believe that
the House of herds will continue, as they have done, to give
satisfaction in the exercise of a public duty—a duty that they
owed to the people. 1 believe, that on account of the great
functions with which they are entrusted, it is absolutely neces-
sary that the power they peSscs stidnid be maintained. If
thc37 think it not necessary i 6 34.01(1 to the first impulse of po-
pular passion, 1 believe they are not only encouraged and
satisfied in tittle own consciences by so doing, but I believe
they will be supported by such a mass of public opinion in this
Country—(Cheers)—by such a preponderating mass of the
intelligence and public opinion in this country, as will long
secure the British Constitution from the dangers which some
appear to apprehend.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition
Members.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
Right Hon. Gentleman has said in the course of his speech,
that he was not prepared to declare that any benefit could
arise from a postponement of the discussion ; on the contrary,
that a postponement of the discussion would be likely to raise
feelings which might hereafter increase the difficulties, and
which might hereafter throw obstacles in the way of your
adjustment of this question.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Undoubt-
edly, in stating this, the Right Hon. Gentleman was quite
correct ; for if that which we are now debating were to be
put down for discussion this day se'nnight, instead of leading
to a more permanent settlement, it would be more likely to
give excitement to feelings rendering that settlement more
difficult. Does, then, the Right Hon. Gentleman complain
that we have not delayed the notice of this subject for a week,
when that delay would not aid the views of any one of us ?
—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman knows it; he feels
that' this is the best course that we could have pursued, and it
is one by which we are ready to abide. I mean no disrespect to
the Hoet of Lords ; on- the contrary, I look to their amend-
ments, and I find that they justify the whole course we have
taken. We have had notice sufficiently notorious of what was
done by the Lords. Did the Lords hold out to us the expec-
tation of their taking another course ? Could we look to the
arrangements of those differences, with the views they main-
tained ? No; and in the sentence to which the Noble Lord
has alluded, and to which I attach great importance—in that
sentence, in which they speak of some period, I hope not a
very distant one, in which those differences may be settled--
they fairly tell us that they cannot yield upon that point to
which we attach so much value. When we knew they were
decided upon that point—a point upon which a majority of this
House stood pledged—it would be childish, worse than childish,
it would be mischievous, if we did not take a course justifiable
in vindication of our principles, and justifiable in reference to our
own dignity. We have, in doing so, taken a course the least
likely to embitter the differences between us and the other House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman has referred to the majority of
41 in support of the address. But does it rest there? That
majority of 41 was converted into a majority of 86, and this,
too, after repeated discussions on the Bill.—(Cheers.) Here,
in maintenance of the argument, I trust I may be allowed to
offer some reasons, and in so doing, to support the hopes of
the people of Ireland ; and that they may with confidence look
forward to the future adjustment of the question to which
refer, let them look to the elements of which that majority
was composed. How often has it happened that those who
seemed to consider the Irish aliens in blood, and who by doing
so were injuring the British connection, how often is it that
by them the majorities in this House were anatomised? How
often have they attempted to raise invidious distinctions ? How
often have they declared that the Irish Members at one time and
the Scotch Members at another outweighed the English Mem-
bers, as if they were not all equally Members of Parliament? How
often has this been done by them to raise distinctions when it
suited the advocacy of their own opinions? These, then, are
now to be told, that such national distinctions can be no longer
commented upon. I rely, for this, upon the majority of 86—
(Cheers.) It is, then, not only for such persons, but it is
especially for the people of Ireland I state this—they who had
been led to think that justice could be procured in an English
Parliament, I have to tell them that, on that occasion, tho free
votes of British Members declared that an end should be put
to the abuses of which they so justly complain.—(Hear, and
cheers from Mr. O'Connell and other Irish Members.) I pro-
ceed now, Sir, to another branch of the argument. The Right
Hon. Gentleman has stated that we have no right to ask him
respecting the sentiments of his colleagues—that we have no
right to suppose that the opinions that have fallen from another
are his; that we are only responsible for our own opinions.
Let me then entreat of the House not to take the version of my
Noble Friend's opinions from the commentary which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had passed upon them.—( Hear, and cheers.)
Attend to the commentary upon that speech. The Right Hon.
Gentleman charges, not an individual merely, but a Minister of
the Crown, with a breach of his duty, and declares that there
was danger to the British Constitution. That was not my
Noble Friend's observation, nor his argument. What did he
state ? That, upon a review of the fucts, he saw no such
danger to exist. Why did he state that? I repeat it, because
the confidence he expressed is my own—he expressed my
own hopes. I cannot, Sir, look to the past, without being
confident of the future. It is not the first time that good
measures have been intercepted in their advance to the Crown
by the unworthy delays, or unnecessary jealousy, of a party.—
( Hear, hear.) I feel that there is no danger to be appre-
hended for the British Constitution, but, as has been rightly
said by the Catholic question, there is danger in the postpone-
ment of it.—( Hear.) Upon the Reform question, I might
appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman himself for his know-
ledge of this fact. There were then appeals like those we
have heard to-night. We were then told, as we have been
told in this debate to-night, in answer to such appeals, that
power and dignity cannot and ought not to arrest the progress
of liberal legislation.

..uu;11

Sir R. PEEL was understood to ask who was to decide
what liberal legislation was ?

The CHANCELLOII.of the EXCHEQUER—Perhaps,
we were not the right judges of it. lam not one to except
upon his judgment on this point, or to question his authority ;
but it so happens that on all great questions the Right Hon.
Gentleman was against us. Upon the Test and Corporation
Acts he was against us ; upon the Roman Catholic question
the Right Hon. Gentleman was against us ; upon the Reform
qnestion he was against us ; upon Municipal Reform he was
in many of its leading principles against us. Undoubtedly ho
felt that he was thoroughly right; but the difference is, that
in the long run we succeeded, and the Right Hon. Gentleman
did not.—( Hear, and cheers.) The experience of the past is
with us ; but the weight of authority I am willing to concede
is entirely with him.._( Hear, and laughter.) Now, as to the
question between the two Houses, this is to be observed, that
the public exercises a just authority over the deliberations of
the two Houses. To it belongs the duty that it exercises of
weighing the measures and proceedings of both—it looks not
to abilities so much as to facts, nor to speeches so much as
to spirit and principles that actuate them. If the acts are
just—if the representatives are influenced in accomplishing
them, by the feelings that sway their constituents—there is
no authority within the land that can ultimately resist
them.----( Hear, hear, hear.) These are the hopes which
I hold out to the people of Ireland. I feel it to be my
duty at once to tell them we have fought your battle in
this House, and in answer to the taunting observations
that have been made respecting English Members, I tell
them, that if there had been even their unaided votes to sup-
yort them, those unaided votes could hare defended and
maintained the liberties of Ireland.—( Hear, hear, and cheests.)
I tell this for their consolation also--for I wish to temper with
consolation the severe lesson that has been inflicted upon them,
for I well know that " hope deferred" with nations, as with
individuals, " makes the heart sick."—( Hear, and cheers.)
I think it impossible to conclude the observations which I have
felt it to be my duty to make, without saying again, that I
trust that the public at large, and those who read history here-
after, will do justice to the moderation and calmness evinced
by the House of Commons, when the principles for which
they were contending were in peril, when a mighty stake was
et issue, and that confident in the support we must receive, we
abode by principles which to their fullest extent we have em-
braced, and that having so resolved, we never shall abandon
those principlcs—discharging our duty to the people of Ire-
latidssethat we never will abandon the pledge we have given in
Yesisting the repeal of the Union—(Loud cheers)—on the
present occasion we redeem that pledge by the course we arc
pursuing. One word more, and I have done. It is in re-
ference to our part of the argument, that has been used upon
the present and former occasions. It is said that this is
au insult and a wrong to Ireland, because we compel the
people of Ireland to adopt the 9th George IV. Now, with
respect to that Bill (the 9th George IV.), there was a long
discussion between the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge
and myself when the Bill was proposed. At the time that
Lord Melbourne was Chief Secretary for Ireland, the Bill was
laid upon the table of the House, but there was no hope of
pissing it that year. It was presented and carried in the fol-
lowing year. In one clause of this Bill, on which the impu-
tation is cast that we may seek to make it compulsory, there
was a clause to this effect, that " in all cases where the popu-
lation, exceeded 5,000, the Lord Lieutenant was positively di-
rected that the Act be carried into effect."
Lord STANLEY made an observation which was not
heard in the Gallery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The Act
was varied the next year. I have seldom known the -Noble
Lord quick arid make a false point. In the view I took of the
Act. I thought it quite fair that it should be optional with the
parties. Here, however, we were unanimous in destroying the
Corporations, and we must substitute something else. In
order to give the means of administering the Corporation re-
venues, it was absolutely necessary that there should be an
authority contemporaneous with the destruction of the Corpo- •
rations to be put an end to.--( Hear.) I feel every confidence
that we shall succeed; I feel every confidence from this post-
ponement ; I feel every confidence that in adhering with the
same temper and firmness as we did to the English Bill last
year, and as we do to the Irish Bill this year, that public opi-
nion will accompany and support us, and that sooner or later
we shall succeed—l say, and I trust, soon for this measure
carried next year, will not bring with it all the benefits it
would if conceded this.--( Hear.) Let us be wise in time.
—( Hear, and loud cheers.)
Mr. O'CONNE L L—Sir, I do not think that it ever fell to
my lot to hear a more unstatesmanlike speech from the Right
Hon. Baronet than that which he has just uttered. That
upon an important question like this the Right Hon. Baronet
should stand up to advocate delay, under the mere formal
pretence of having the Lords' reasons and amendments
printed, was in itself quite astonishing, and showed the weak-

THE SUN LONDON-, PitinAY, JULY 1, 1836

ness of his position and of his arguments. nut the Right up. tie was perfectly willing to leave altogether did Of the
iiiinmgmetdhieatuelnyhana,nreer himself on this very question any comment upon individnals. Unfortunately the
priieosoiutnilt.t, Baronetf
br. . )::!: e t a
-r F.., - --svq
' ueneeg Which Woull syslelii nista at tile pi-O'ent goon in all its strength, but of that
pro-tonging tills discession.—(Hcor.) He en-. he did not treat. 111 was persuaded thai .4 mipici revise
sWered himself edellsettlto ntt lilt' liill'46ride In aLcilditig Li , irlie thOgi detlY6 eieftitili slit il'e' #tp ee the real Mends to
14.1`-e§' rof &Aka' diVisitelliptin liii!i iiiieSiiciti 4.1.6 64fially tici he , Ireland id preVent that demand for the felie'id oi t'S Vniew
admired.. the Right lion. Bareriet reecilleeted thai ille 1;0;:- 1 4, 111cih he had alvkayi Considered to be detrimetiftii td ttbd
mer diVlsion of 41 had lately
,Sli-ellen into Bd, and he feared best interests of ili44 two cedriirleS: When he expressed
that on andtliei- ditision the majority lLduld again is dqehled. _ ; that opinion he was quite Wlllisl to oolfdoWledge the'
(dlslei'S.) But whilst I admire the .aight Hon. fla4Sonet's I,Nitdess ()tithe argensient, of the lion. and Istainid iNleni-
prudence in this matter, Ido not think he has shown himself 1 bee toef Rillsen4, that if the people of Ireland could riot
. r
65ttally prudent in standing forward, as he has done, to ad- get justice done in the is4igting state of things,, they would
vise the House of horde to persevere in the course they had' be perfectly warranted in gettnig jiaOlo'e for tlieniselies.
taken sip., if tlso people of England were to rally round the (Hear, hear.) In his view the two ceiiiilii;l44 i4efe Sp'
&Use of Lords and the Crown in this matter, as he says closely united in feeling, in language, and almost by 61Odtf;
1
they would, what chance of justice would remain to Ire- that he believed it to be hest for the welfare of two nations
I
land, but in a repeal of the Union between the two thus connected to be placed under one Government. But if
countries?__( Hear, hear, hear.)—The Right Honourable ' the larger of the two should withhold from the smaller any
Baronet adopts the House of Lords, he becomes a partici- peculiar privileges, and should create marks of distinc-
pator in all their outrages against I
Ireland, and when at last the trod between them,. than he would confess it was the right of
seven millions of people who are wronged in these Acts are the smaller to vindicate to themselves that government which
driven to rank themselves iii open hostility against their Lord- was denied them, and that at any price and by any separation.
ships, the Right Hon. Baronet flatters himself that he may —( Hear, hear.) He was not, nevertheless, without hope
calmly take -up his position and direct the storm.--( Hear, that they would still be induced to listen to the calm voice of
hear.) I know all this may be sneered at, but we are in a reason when addressed to them by their best friends. He
temper to bear it. Scotland obtained her measure of Muni- trusted that they might be swayed by the opinions of that man
cipal Reform two or three years ago; England hers last year; who •had ever remained true to them under their ldii# soffer-
and this year Ireland might have had hers at the time this Bill inns—(he meant the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilketifit)
went up to the House or Lords. It has been admitted on all —by that influence which, however it might be scouted by
hands that the Corporations of Ireland have become grossly some in that House, had ever been exercised for the promo-
corrupts that they have been perverted, even in the adminis_. tion of the tranquillity and happiness of the Irish people.—
tration of justice, to party purposes and unblushing partiality. (Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he would only say, not in any
All this has been admitted; even the Hon. and Learned Re- feeling of anger, and with no desire of using bitter language,
corder for Dublin could not deny it ; and yet all this is to re- but seriously and gravely, that it was his opinion that the
main for another year at least. I appeal to the people of Eng_ people would be subjected to the same impediments and diffi-
land whether it is just that things which no man has had the culties so long as there was a reformed Parliament opposed by
audacity to defend should be continued in Ireland for two years a House of Lords that was irresponsible. If the people of
after similar abuses had been swept away from England. England were desirous that the House of Commons should
—(Hear, hear.) I tell the Right Hon. Baronet that continue a reforming House, he had little doubt that they
the people of Ireland will not be content with the 9th would stretch out a hand to assist in removing the abuses
George IV. ; and there is another thing, namely, the ap- which must arise from the continuance of an irresponsible
pointment of sheriffs, which they will never consent to give body.--(Hear, hear.)
up. Ido not mean the absolute appointment, but the choice Mr. DILLON BROWNE said—What is the question
of three, out of which one is to be chosen, and with power to before us ? Whether Ireland (I use the repudiated term)
reject—this is a right which the people of Ireland do and will shall have justice or not ?—whether there shall be a union or
demand.—(Cheers.) Look at the position the case is brought not ?—whether she shall enjoy English rights and institutions,
to, and it is you who have done all this—( Pointing to the or be dishonoured and degraded. There was much warmth on
Opposition.) It is you who have done this injury to Ireland, the Opposition side during this debate. Why ?—because
declaring that she shall not have what England and Scotland Hon. Members calculated on a different result—they thought
are permitted to enjoy. It is you who have adopted the man ' they might change their position, and sit on this side of
who said that the people of Ireland were aliens in blood, aliens the House, and that his Majesty's Government might be
in religion, and aliens in country to the people of England. It induced to resign their trusts. But I trust that no false
is you who have injured the people of Ireland, and then in- delicacy shall induce the Ministers of the Crown to desert
stilted her.—( Cheers.) And then you talk about avoiding their posts and forget the duties they owe to their country.
agitation. You may have got rid of the normal schools of What species of Government might we hope for? In all
agitation, but wait till you see what finished agitation you will probability we would have the Noble Duke at the helm of
soon have about you. For from the hour in which I stand the State. I shall not call him an alien in blood, but though
here till I see Corporate Reform in Ireland, I promise you an Irishman, I believe heldoes not triumph in the accident
you shall have plenty of agitation.—( Hear, hear, hear, and a of his birth. We would have him performing in his double
laugh.) As to these reasons, as they are called, of the character—for while he advocated Church monopoly in
House of Lords, cant and hypocricy could not be carried another place, he would, with the dexterity of a ventrilo-
further. I actually blushed for Ireland when I heard a quist, speak the same sentiments through a certain Hon.
Noble Duke read them in the other House. Oh ! what a Baronet in this House. We would have two Hon. Baronets
state of misery and degradation are we reduced to, that you in this House answering sophistry by argument, and what
cannot meditate an act of injury against Ireland but you species of Government might we hope for for Ireland ? We
can find one who was born within her shores to assist would have, Secretary to that country, an Hon. and Gallant
in perpetrating it ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) What hope has and Worthy Baronet, ready booted for tithe campaign ; and,
Ireland now? The pledge of the House of Lords ! Why, perhaps, we would have the Noble Lord the Member for Lan-
they have violated their pledge a thousand times. All cashire, by a special act of favour, Viceroy in that country,
disguise has now been thrown off by them—all the disputes whose affection for the Church, and whose advocacy for Re-
about petty details have been thrown overboard ; they have form, form one of the strangest anomalies I have ever read in
come to the principle, and the principle they reject also. The the history of a Statesman, and whose political career strongly
Right Hon. Baronet halloos on the House of Lords to persist reminds me ef those grotesque figures which we read of in the
in rejecting this principle, and then he tells us that their Lord_ Italian writers, whose bodies were half reversed, for while his
ships represent the people of England ; and moreover, he finds feet were moving in one direction, his heart and head were
out that they have a responsibility also. A responsibility so, turned in another. Oh I I trust that his Majesty's Govern-
too, had Mehemet Ali, who told his people, " You are all re- ment will not, through a false delicacy, deliver us into power
presented in me; and as to responsibility, Mahomet be praised, of those men ! The question was then put and agreed to.
I am responsible to God."—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) This REVOLT IN THE TEXAS.
is the tyrant's reponsibility. If I were disposed to be profane, Mr. B. HOY said he was anxious to know from the Noble
I should like to know how we are to bring that responsibility Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he had re-
to bear—bow to make it avail in human affairs ? If their ceived any communication relative to the establishment of sla-
Lordships are quietly resigned to endure the punishments of very and the slave trade in the Texas.
the next world for having done all the mischief they can in Lord PALMERSTON observed, that the inhabitants of
this, hurrah I for their Lordships' responsibility to God—hur- Texas were in a state of revolt against the Mexican Govern-
rah for the high priest and the prophet of Mecca.—(ol), -oh ! ment, and the result of that revolt was not as yet decided.
hear, hear I) After all, perhaps, you are right. It is almost He should, however, state that no communication could have
impossible to speak of the subject without approaching the taken place between Texas and the British Government.
profane, but it is him you should blame, and not me ; blame Mr. B. HOY announced his intention of bringing the sub-
him who treated us, in the first instance, to this mighty then- ject under the consideration of Parliament.
logical discourse on the responsibility of the House of Dr. LUSHINGTON wished to ask his Noble Friend a
Lords. The Lords did not dare to mutilate the Eng_ question with reference to Texas. He was desirous of know-
lish Corporation Reform Bill to too outrageous an extent, ing whether any information had been received of the impor-
and for this very simple reason—they saw the organized tation of slaves from Texas into the United States. Though
and menacing determination of the people of this country, and he believed there was no treaty between this country and the
they were afraid to meet it. But the Lords do not fear the United States which could compel them to put an end to such
people of Ireland, and therefore they refuse to do her justice, a system, yet they were bound not to sanction a continuance of
This is the real reason of their conduct. Every one knows such a practice.
that it is almost impossible to suppose that a Bill of utility to Lord PALMERSTON replied that no such information
Ireland can ever be passed into law. If you talk of bringing had been received by Government.
in such a measure, the answer immediately is, "What possible PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT.
chance have you of passing it through the Lords. "—(Hear, Sir J. HAMMER, in moving the resolution of which he
hear)? But is there really any one so insane as to suppose had given notice, observed that there was no ground whatever
that this can last for ever? Having succeeded by dint of for presuming that he was actuated by party motives in bring-
peaceable agitation in obtaining one portion of Catholic eman- ing forward the question which he meant to submit. It was
cipation from your hands—( Hear, hear)—yes, a portion, for en fair, straightforward, plain, intelligible, and constitutional
after all that Act was but a part of the justice we looked for-.- grounds, without any admixture of party spirit, that he claimed
having forced that part from the Right Hon. Baronet and the consideration of Hon. Members, of all politics, sects, and
from the Noble Duke, who, in 1828, talked about conquer- persuasions. The Hon. Baronet, whom increasing confusion
ing Ireland with the sword, and in 1829 found it more agree- in the body of the House gradually rendered perfectly inau-
able to put it in the scabbard—l tell you that the people of dible in the Gallery, then proceeded to contend, that the very
Ireland defy your menaces for the future. Neither the Noble circumstance of the Hon. Member for Bath being identified
Duke nor your minority shall ever be permitted to trample with a political party in Canada, rendered him an incompetent
upon Ireland with impunity.—(oh, oh I and cheers.) In the judge upon a question relating to general colonial policy; and
name of the Irish people I give vou this defiance. Do not after a speech of great length, of Which, for the reasons we
think that I mock you when I talk so to you. I tell have stated, we arc unable to give even an outline, concluded
you that if you refuse to do justice to us, we are by moving the following resolution :—" That it is contrary to
able to do justice to ourselves.—(oh, oh ! and cheering.) the independence, a breach of the privileges, and derogatory to
I have given up the agitation of the question of the the character of the House of Commons, for any of its Mem-
repeal of the Union, and now see what an argument you have hers to become the paid advocate in Parliament for the con-
given me in support of it. I know the present Government duct there of either public or private affairs of any portion of
are disposed to do all they possibly can in order to obtain jus- his Majesty's subjects."
tice for the people of Ireland. Let my support of them be Mr. ROEBUCK said, it was in consequence of the evi-
misrepresented as it may, I shall support them, because I Bence given by some witnesses before the Committee on Ca-
know that there is no alternative between a systern,of uncom- nadian affairs, which sat in 1827-28, that it was determined
promising despotism in Ireland, and the maintenance in power by the House of Assembly of that colony to retain an agent
of the present Ministry.—( Cheers.) I shall continue the ex- in Great Britain. For that office lie had the good fortune to
periment I have entered upon, of obtaining justice for Ireland be selected ; and he now heard it, for the first time, asserted,
without a repeal. I shall persevere in that experiment as long that the duties it imposed were incompatible with the situation
as it seems to be compatible with justice to my country, and lie held as a Member of that House. As to the duties at-
no man would pardon me if I were to go further.—(Hear.) tached to the situation, he could assure the House they were
This is my determination. alike important and laborious ; in fact they occupied nearly
Mr. D. GASKILL said—the Hon. and Learned Gentle- the whole of his time. He was required continually to watch
man had talked a great deal about the rights of the people the whole proceedings of the colonies, and of that House on
of Ireland, hut he would ask, had the people of England colonial matters; and he was frequently required to give at-
no rights also ? He would tell the Honourable and Learned tendance at the Colonial-office—a branch of duty in which
Gentleman that the independence of the other House of Par- much valuable time was consumed. But he wished to
liament was one of the rights of the people of England— know what was the difference between his case and that of
( Hear)---a right equal in authority and in importance with the Governor of the Bank of England, or of a Bank or East
that of the very existence of the Monarchy itself ; equal with India Director? The Hon. Baronet's resolution, if it af-
that of the Hon. and Learned Member to sit in that House footed him, must affect other Hon. Members holding such
as Member for Kilkenny.--( Hear, hear.) He maintained offices. What was the difference between the two situations?
the right of the other House to modify, amend, and reject, Surely the Governor of the Bank of England, or a Bank or
any Bill sent up to it to be as as full acrd indisputable as that East India Director, came into that House with as much pro-
of the House of Commons to originate a Bill in the first in- possession in favour of particular opinions or particular doc-
stance. The Legislature of this country consisted of a trines on subjects relating to those Corporations, as he could
monarchy, controlled by two assemblies, the one sitting in lie respecting a Canadian question. If there was any dif-
their own right, the other as the representatives of the people. ference between the two cases, it consisted in this, that as his
If these two Legislative Assemblies could not go on any connection with Canada was a matter open, clear, and before
longer together, the fault was owing to the Reform Bill of the whole world, there was no danger likely to arise from his
the opposite side of the House, which had worked such an advocacy or vote on any particular question ; while in other
innovation as to threaten the destruction of the Constitution, instances Members voted and advocated measures in which
and introduce what Mr. Canning had styled as a " Crown the public supposed them uninterested, but upon the result
democrady."—( Hear, hear.) But fro was happy in believing of which, in all probability, they had a heavy stake depending.
that they had not come to that yet; he trusted they never How was it in respect to those two great questions—the re-
would reach such a state of affairs.-_( Hear, hear.) After newal of the Batik and East India Charters? Why hundreds
all, what was the real ground of objection and cavil to these of Members, who were far more beneficially interested in the
amendments of the House of Lords? Not because they re- result of those questions than he could be in the result of
fused justice to Ireland, but because they refused to vest addi- any question relating to the colonies, voted upon them. He
tional power in the hands of the Hon. and Learned Member contended, then, that if the proposed resolution was to be
for Kilkenny—because they would not hand over the Protest- put in force, it would sweep from the House one-half of its
ants of Ireland to his keeping;—for these reasons were the Members.--( Hear, hear.) But he had even a still stronger
Lords branded at the most contemptible of public meetings, view of the case to put to the House. If any set of persons
by all the vilest epithets, as tyrants and liars 1...--(Cheering.) had a right to complain of a representative undertaking to
He did not pretend to know what course his Majesty's Minis- manage the affairs of a colony, who above all others had
tors might take up when this question came again to be it ? Surely they were the constituency of that person.—
mooted. They might rigidly adhere to what they termed ( hear.) Now he wanted to know if his constituency had ever
the principle of this measure, or they might determine to complained of his having been chosen the agent of the House
meet the views of the House of Lords in a better spirit of Assembly of Canada? He wished to know, moreover, if
of conciliation. Whatever course they adopted, the people it was likely his constituents, had they disapproved of his
of England would watch their conduct with anxiety.— acting as agent for Canada, would have paid all his election
( Great cheering from both sides of the House.) A few exeences ? If his constituents thought his acceptance of the
months would show whether the party which supported the agency was a breach of trust, they knew well that, on their
Government at present were as united a body as they representing that opinion to him, he would have immediately
were represented to be, but which the speech of the Hon. resigned the trust they had confided to him. As far as Par-
Member for Middlesex was ill calcUlated to confirm. . liament was concerned the authorities were with him—as far
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that if the House of Lords conti- as law was concerned he was borne out—and as far as the
nued a little longer in the course they had taken up, there was question depended upon common sense be left it to the House
this consolation, that the people of England would awaken in to judge.
time to a right appreciation of their Lordships' institution as a Mr. D. W. HARVEY could not help congratulating the
branch of the Legislature. It might be that there \was at pre- lion. and Learned Member for Bath upon his being able to
sent a majority of the inhabitants of this country favourable to support his case with reference to thieve of Governors and Di-
the preservation of the House of Lords in its existing condi- rectors—between whose positions and his he was free to say
tion ; but this he was prepared to maintain, that there never there was a strong analogy. He must, however, observe that
was an institution to which the public became so rapidly op- it would give him much satisfaction to hear from the father of
posed as they had to the other House of Parliament within the Parliamentary law (Mr. Wynn, as we understood), who took
lasi five years.—( Hear.) From the conduct of that body, ex- so prominent a part in the discussion upon his case some years
per:ence was gathered of its practical operation. And he was ago, in what consisted the difference between it and that be-
convinced that by a quiet revolution, what he believed to he fore the House ? The fact was, lie (Mr. Harvey) was the vic-
essential to the good government of the country would be tim of the weakness of pretended friends, and the absence of
ultimately and effectually secured—namely, the total extinc- those great names which the Honourable and Learned Mem-
tion of the irresponsible character of the House of Lords.— ber for Bath brought to his protection. Injustice, however,
( Hear, hear.) Last year he had prophesied that the House was not on this account the less pointed or the less painful ;
of Lords would reject what the people of England desired. and, unfortunately, the longer lie lived, the more convinced
Had not the events which had occurred justified that pros Ile became of the persecution to which had been subjected.
phecy? Were they not now checked and thwarted in the --(Hear, hear.) From the first hour of his political exis-
passing of every useful measure for the benefit of the nation tence, he had been the victim of party and of prejudice,
by an irresponsible body of legislators, amongst whom, al- and so he found to the last hour of his life he should continue.
though there might have been found some great and enlight- Through the rancour of party, he had lest 3,0001. a year,
cued men, whose conduct was prompted by higher, and purer, though, if he had availed himself of the subterfuges others
and nobler motives, the views which actuated the great majo- had recourse to, he might still have continued in its receipt.
rity were of a grosser nature, and were grounded on private From the Tuesday night upon which it was decided by that
and person peculation ?—( Hear, hear, and cries of " Order.") House that his position as Member incapacitated him from
This was the character which uniformly attached to the House acting as a Parliamentary agent, up to that hour he had not
of Lords this was the character which would uniformly attach directly, or indirectly, received the tithe of a farthing. __(Hear,
to it, until—(Renewed cries of " Chair.) hear.) Had others been as conscientious ? Was there, or was
The SPEAKER said that it should be recollected by the there not, hypocrisy in a great deal of the political and moral
Hon. Gentleman, that that House would always expect that feeling of which others so loudly boasted?. He considered
whatever was addressed to it by others should be addressed in himself a wronged man, and how did he prove it? Why thus,
respectful terms. The Hon. Member ought also to bear in for one instance. In the newspapers of that morning he saw
mind, that tire other branch of the Legislature was entitled an advertisement of a railway Company, and appended to that
to be addressed in the same respectful terms as those which ' advertisement, under the title of standing counsel, was the
they required with respect to themselves. , name of an Hon. and Learned Member of that House. Now
Mr. ROEBUCK—He did not refer particularly to the ex-
"ghat did the term "standing counsel" mean ? It meant a'
isting body ; he spoke of the system under which it had grown man who stood, with both hands open, ready to receive a bribe