The Sun.
London, England, 1849-04-27 00:00:00

bad to pay was increased ; and he proposed
that all claims in respect of them should be substisii-
tiated by an action of debt, in which a ladg-
ment, as in common law, might be obtained. Then
With respect to the sale of lend for the purpose of
Paying the arrears due for poor-rate, he icund
that there would be great d:fficulty ir. dealing with
that subject, and as he wished to confine himself as much
as possible to the amendment of the poor-law, he proe-
posed that on the non-payment '
lessor should have the power of ous'ltintej
ghthreatesntaen
trhot.
Re did not think, however, there was any such rates
of pauperism in Ireland as might not be relieved
by the
rates as in ordinary years. He was surprised to find
that the amount of able-bodied labourers who, with
their families, received relief from the poor-law
during the months of June and July last was
not greater than in ordinary years. The number stated
by the Poor-law Commissioners was 70,000. The num-
ber in England was much greater than in Ireland, being
some 90,000; but at the same time there was not such a
very great disproportion between the two. The question,
after all, was whether, supposing that there was not
every year a very great scarcity ; it was possible for
Ireland to go on supporting her poor by laws made as
efficiently as possible for that purpose. So ler from the
country being pauperised by the poor-law, it was very
much more likely to be much better cultivated if there
was some security for the proper relief of the destitute
poor. He begged le:vo to move to bring in the Bill.
Mr. STAFEORD said the Noble Lord had stated that
he believed, in ordinary years, as distinct from years of
famine, rates could be levied amply sufficient to maintain
the population of that country. The difference between
those who had acted under the guidance of the
Noble Lord and those who had ventured, session
after session, to recommend a different course
of policy with regard to this difficult subject
Was this, that they had over and over again called the
attention of the House to the fact, that the famine in
Ireland did not, as the Noble Lord still seemed to
imagine, leave the country where it found it. The
Poor-law in Ireland, as at present constituted, had a ten-
dency to feed pauperism rather than the income of
the country—and, though he had urged over and over
again, to the House, that owing to the inefficiency of the
Poor-law, thousands of lives had been and were sacrificed,
still the operation of the poor-law left the proportion be•
tween pauperism and the population as wide as ever. Ho
had to express his regret that the Government had de-
termined upon what he might call piecemeal legislation.
The Noble Lord bad said he was not prepared to go
into the question of the sale of land for the arrears of
pooe.rates,
ad
but he mus t recollect that considerable dis-
cussion
ahead taken place upon that point.
(Lord John Russell appeared to dissent.) Well,
then, he wished the Noble Lord would state
the nature of the measures which he intended
to bring forward on this subject. He began by dealing
with the most difficult question of all—the maximum
rate. It was true, he did not say the Government was
pledged to an irrevocable rate of ss. and 2s. That
question he seemed to leave open fur discussion.
but he did not say what was to be done in
any electoral division where the rates exceeded 7s.
From what fund was distress to be alleviated when that
maximum had been reached? He ought to have ex-
plained from what source the funds were to come. It
could not come from the rate in aid fund, since that
Would be sufficiently expended; it was difficult, there-
fore, to say from what; source it would come, except
from the Imperial Treasury. But he omitted to mention
another subject, which was mere important than either
the 2s. or ss. rate. It was a matter of the greatest possible
importance, namely, whether a ss. rate was to be merely
struck, or whether it was to be bona fide collected.—
(Cheers.) Let them have a 6d. rate, or of any other
amount, but whatever was its amount let it be actually
collected. He did not hesitate to say that unless the
area of taxation were rendered smaller than the Com •
taissioners proposed to make it, the working of the poor-
law would be even much worse than it had been. He
Considered that it would be far better if the Noble Lord
had brought in a complete measure on the subject of the
poor-laws for Ireland. He confessed that one of the
greatest wonders he met with in the Irish poor-law was
the mode in which the English and Scotch Members re-
garded it; because there was not one of them whose con-
stituents would not lose by the increased demands upon
their purse, in cons( quence of the neglect of proper ad-
vice upon the subject, w hich was too often observable.
The fact was, that unless they could render the poor-
law in Ireland favourable to employment, there was but
little hope of their rendering it permanently useful. The
workhouse test could not be properly applied, when their
workhouses were full; and after all. after considering all
the numerous ramifications of the question, they must
always come back to the old one. Where was the
money to come from? In many cases the recommenda-
tions of the Boundary Commissioners as to the new
unions, were strongly opposed; but if they were adopted,
twenty-one new unions, and twenty-one new union-
houses must be erected, and that too at the cost of the
Imperial Treasury. Pronouncing no opinion upon the
general question, he should propose a resolution, the
object of which was to put a stop to the tendency to
jobbing which this system certainly had. lie should
propose that the opinion of boards of guardians should
be taken in reference to proposed unions, and that if the
guardians refuse to make new unions, it should bo com-
petent to the Thundery Commissioners to negotiate
loans as they best might ; but unless the guardians
would do so on their own account, such boundary of
unions should remain undisturbed. As a gene-
ral 'rule, in assimilating the poor-law of Ireland
with that of Scotland, ho thought that the tax
Shout.' bear some proportion to the rent, and that
when that rent was very large, it should be borne by
the occupying tenant. The foundation of all their ha
provea.ents in the poor-law was based upon the area of
taxation, although the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed very unwilling to
acknowledge it. The diminution of the area of taxa-
tion, was the change which they de.ired, but it was too
bold a measure to introduce as a substantive matter of
reform. They would approach it, however, as a pre-
liminary step, by recommending that it shou!d be an in-
struction to the Boundary Commissioners to assimilate
as nearly as possible the electoral divisions of Ireland to
the average size of the parishes in England, which, he
believed, was about 2,000 acres. Before the debate
closed he hoped to hear from some member of the Go-
vernment that they intended to take steps with that
object in view, and he could assure him that he had only
taken part in the debate in order to point out what ap-
peared to him the material character of the measure
which should bo introduced, in order to provide a better
operation of the poor-law in Ireland than had hitherto
prevailed.
Mr. W. FAGAN said, that although he agreed with
the .11onourable Member who had just spoken, that
the diminution of the area of taxation might en-
courage' employment, and that a great many thought
it would have the effect, still it seemed to be admitted
by every one, that it would also lead to clearances, wh'oh
would have a co; tr A.), tendency. Ho did not think it
justice that the Noble Lord should propose a greater tax
on the tenant, and that without assigning any reason
for the change. There was another point, also, upon
which he thought it tight to mike a c implaint, and that
was, that the persons deriving money front Government
offices were exempted Uom paying the rate. The land
lord of the Custorn• house at Cork received annually 8001.
from that establishment, and did not pay a single
farthing. These were matters deserving of serious at-
tention, and he hoped that he might not have alluded to
theta fruitlessly.—(Hear.)
Lord BERNARD said he wished to make a few ob-
eerVations on the subject of the area of taxation. He
believed that question to be the root of the whole mis-
chief; and without entertaining the extreme opinions
expressed by a great many, he certainly thought that
the present divisions for taxation were much too large.
The great question in Ireland was the area of taxation,
which people were anxious to have brought to a settle-
ment. It was stated at a meeting held at Bandon,
upon the subject of the poor-laws, that Lord Bantry
and his son had borrowed 12,0001. to effect improve-
ment, but only expended 2,300/. when they toiled,
in consequence of the area of taxation, that any
further expenditure would not alleviate the pressure
of taxation. In the union of which he was the chairman
he had suggested a rate in aid of emigration, but they
found that although they might remove by emigration
some able-bodied persons from the workhouse, their place
would be taken by other parties, who would be stimulated
to apply. not only from want, but through a desire to
obtain the means of emigration. He was convinced no
change in the poor-law would be effected without auxi-
liary measures. Railways would be most beneficial to
the country. The grant made to the Southern Railway
had been attended with the greatest advantage. no
hoped, the Government would take means to establish
railways in those parts of Ireland where they did
not exist.
lilt% P. SCROPE hoped the Noble Lord would adopt
sonle' s nrovi ion which would provide shelter for
the I:else-leas poor,'
thousands of whom are wandering
toont.the country almost in a state of nudity. The
workhouses. also were in a most defective state, the in-
`"ates' being left without a change of clothing. In the
tallinasloe and Ballinrobe workhouses, the paupers were
vitltinng One hundred per week. There was another point
Nara to the responsibility of poor-law officers to
mieha wished to refer. He considered that where life
twas lost through their neglect, they ought to be subject
ac;tltii:inal prosecution. lie thought they ought to
*le Ai the original principle of the poor_ law, and pro-
recurrploy of Ireland. With
ment for the paupers
effect
ir
t° the question of a small area of taxation, the
ouid be
death- that the landlords would clear off their
Pretni"2" tenants. A small area of taxation would be a
tarta.for evictions.
Mereblr F,HERBERT denied that his Hon. Friend the
ruining lurr,Northamptonshire said that a poor law was
Cork; noretand, as alleged by the lion. Member for
on his side wup it stated by any Honourable Member
Neither did tithe H iuse, to his personal knowledge.
meat had 'n aY believe that her Maji sty's Goverx-
k._ne, w leetanutliiiieulty to contend with—for all who
indeed ofdau must be aware that that difficulty was
appalling character, but what they felt
Grid th°"ht
eaSed 'lna. that the difficulty had been in-
dented ft,
that by the course they adopted. He
for at a limited
, kil area of taxation was objection-
in Ireland '"ew that the evils of the poor-law
tons„,arose from the greatof
of 017-4 t all ca,,,a led area taxation, which
present to clearances or evictions. Some
Unionltlthe„ €:f unionsiCilruslt consisted of 51,000 acres, and the
well
the
tt,eres,-guit was lin county Clare, was 12,000,
Noble air his ow known they never exceeded 2,000
ndpart, he believed the Bill of the
INIld be would
tined much bottom. no
good whatever, and that it
tilln'udNeobleetir Present to leave matters even as they
t law. He would impress upon
thnt 790isoate tourQ:leiterefore, that his measure was totally
—.l-44d 30 Persona the evil, The Noble Lord stated
with th were receiving relief last July.
14r Qlt
fatal' U —Seventy S
t..„; Jab., ws. enty thousand persons,
—“tsa,
Well, 70,000 persons, with their
acaal that so great was the dill-