The Sun.
London, England, 1822-05-07 00:00:00

TI 1E COLONIES.

Mr. MIME,- after observing on the great difference that pre-
-vailed with respect to the regulations in the new and the old
('olonies, as far as they affected the agents in. those Colonies,
moved for a return of the names of such agents, the dates of
their respective appe,intments, the amount of their salaries and
allowances, and a return of all :rich other places as were held
by agents t and also for an account of the duties such agents
had, to perform up to the yeat 1821, in•the new Colonies of th/A.
Mauritius, Ceylon, and Malta. •
. Mr. HUSKISSON said that the first return moved for-had
been already made. .
Mr. HUME admitted that it had ; but he had. to ecmpliiin
of the -conduct of other official persons, who not only were in-
attentive on the subject, -but when the Committee up. stairs
sent back to those persons certain returns and other documents
to be amended, they refused so to do. ••. • _ _

I\lr. W 1 I. NI OT said he did not see how. he could gratify the
wishes of the Hon. Member more than he .had already endea-
voured to do.—The motion was agreed to.

• • NAVIGATION —A CT..'
SYKES presented a Petition from 'the Merchant; of
Kingston-upon-Hull against t eNavibation-I3rll.- •
Sir 3IATIIEW W. RIDLEY pru&nted a .similar Petition
from the Merchants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;.-Ordered'to. be
printed.
Mr. MAXWELL presented a Petition from the Commi..
sioners of Supply and Distillers of Renfrew, Seotland

~that they might be allowed to- import spirits into England as
- the Irish Distillers are allowed to do.—Ordered to be printed.
ILCHESTER GAOL.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT moved for a copy of the Report
of .I.}r. Bryant, Surgeon to the Ilchester Gaoh—Agreed to.
THE BANK.
Mr. GRENFELL said that he had moved for the produc-
tions of certain -documents and correspondence respecting the
renewal of the Bank Charter. He wished to know whether
that correspondence would be laid upon the table in the course.,
of the evening, and if not, when ? He also would wish to know
at what time it was the intention of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to bring before the House the question respecting the
rcnewel of the Bank Charter ? •
The Marquess of LONDONDERRY said that, in the ab-
sence of his Right Honourable Friend, he could not-answer the
lioneureble Gentleman. " • ,
IRISH LABOURERS. '
Mr. C. CALVERT said, that having had occasion within
the lait week to leave town, on orre of the western roads he had
-pa more than 50 groups of Irish, thronging to this city : to-
nay he bad, seen waggon loads of other Irish, sent out of Lon-
don. • He wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite, whether that practice was tolerated ?
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that that was the first time hie
attention had been called to the subject.
AGRICULTURAL REPORT.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of
the Pay for the House resolving itself into a Committee for
!he further consideration of the Report of the Agricultural
h'oretnittee.
' Mr. ELLICE wished to take the opportunity afforded by
. the motion, before the House went into a Committee, of stat-
hog his opinion as to the course recommended by his Majesty's
d'so-seerznent for relieving the difficulties with which the country
-eon eppeossed. After having seen what the Noble Lord ro-
csed to do, he felt it his duty to stay the proceedings of the
• House, until he Sheuld have entered his protest against all the
-"0-ropositions of which he had heard, es being calculated, not to
nelieve the Agriculturist, and at the same time to be injurious
.die all the other irtereets of the country.. He should only have
teutensthis course new, inconsequence of not being able other-
inie to avoid .the necessity of opposing the measures in all
their progressive stages. .After- decidedly stating his dissent
upon the present occasion, he should trouble the House no
more upon the subject. The Noble Lord had expressed a
'ish' to take one proposition only to-night, that of, the advance
ef etc million sterling for the purchasing and warehousing of
corn. He could not see how that proposition was to be de-
- Wed with Out necessarily involving all the topics connected
with the quegtion. When the Agricultural CoMmittee was
first appointed, he .stated that the oely object and tendency of
their labour must be to raise the price of corn, and, to place
the Monopoly of corn in the hands of the English 'grower.
ViThen that Committee made their Report, he was quite eon-
'winced-that he had formed a right and a tree belief. And the
means about to be resorted to for effecting that object formed
a.collection of nostrums and quackeries wholly undeserving
of the; consideration of the House. Although so mary
:plane had been proposed, yet no two of them agreed with
each other. There was one from the Honourable Member for
..Sornersetshires another from the Honourable Member for
Wiltshire, another from the Right Honourable Gentleman
-opposite, and one from the Honourable Member for Porter-
lington, besides that of the Noble Lord. He found them .11
differing, and the conclusions of most were not warranted
by their premises. He was quite sure that the plans would
be highly injurious to the manufacturing interests, and
he should therefore oppose them. The principle of shutting
out competition in the supply of corn and creating monopoly
must lead to that result. The Hon. Member then alluded to
the difference of opinion which exists as to the necessary
amount of protecting duties. He contended that gentlemen
- must understand each other, and come to some agreement as to
:he prices they expected to obtain by means of these duties.
Suppose then, they were to say fifty-five shillings, as was the
price of corn now. He knew that Gentlemen would not be
satisfied with that, because they would say they could not meet
their expenses and pay the taxes. He knew that; and he
would support them in reducing taxes, so as to put them
in a state to compete with the foreign grower. The Ho-
nourable Member then took a review of the protecting
duties and the coincident prices of corn from the year 1773
downwards. In 1791 the price of corn was forty-nine shillings,
and the duty (ine understood) five shillings and tenpence.—
Now the Noble Lord proposed to protect the price of seventy
ehillings by a duty of seventeen shillings: If agriculture was
-distressed, the distress was not to he thrown off upon the corn-
enueity at large by such means as these. Let country gentle-
men reduce the taxes, and compel the Government to recon-
sider the question. Every thing had decreased in value, which
rendered the taxes so much the more burthensome. In the
:rstirnate of the property of the nation, made by Dr. Colquhouri
se the year 1813, it was calculated. that the whole rental was
43,0e0,0001. Corn was then at 1003. and the price of gold was
103. per ounce. Now, the price of corn was between liOs.
end 80s. and the value of property was reduced in proportion ;
yet taxes remained on the same scale.—Thiawas monstrous;
-and he would ask the House if it was not morally' impossible
that things could remain in such a state. He agreed in some
measure with the causes laid down by the Honourable Member
• for Portarlington ; only - the maaimum of his Honourable
Friend waglis minimum,' and vice versa. His Hon. Friend
stated, that over-production was the greatest cause, and the
niteration of the currency the Least ; while he said that the
~Iteration of the currency was the greatest, and over-pro-
duction among the least. The Hon. Member then reverted to
• fOrrner, periods, when metallic currencies had been restored,
arielatetcd that all-such effects had been followed by a lower-
ing of thaprice of corn. In 1809, the first depreciation of the
pap currency took place, owing to the issue of four millions
lied a half of additional circulating medium. Mr. Homer
then said that the depreciation amounted to fifteen per
cent. Mr. Horner also confirmed his own opinion with
regard to the fallacy of a gold standard. He contended
that the country had been deceived into measures all along
the late extravagant war, which had now brought such
distress upon the country. • He= did not mean to com-
plain of the Right Honourable Gentleman's measure oppo-
site, hut of the measure of the year 1797. which was the great
?source of all the evil. In 1816 the Chancellor of the Exchequer
came down with his Budget, and proposed to borrow a loan
. twelve milliops, and to extend the circulation by the issue
of paper to a greater extent than was ever known in the history
of the country. Then came the Right Hon.-Gentleman's meas
sure, and created all the difficulties which pressed upon the
country. He supported the resolution which led to that mea-
sure, and he was not disposed to shrink from it. He should
• be one of the last to depart from thanresolution, or to wish for
the return of a paper currency. Best he contended that the con-
traction of the currency did produce the distress. In the course
of two years a contraction of about one-half took place, and
this was unquestionably the.cauee of the great depreciation in
the valee of agricultural produte. He would never consent
to elite:don the good to be de:iv:el from the Right Honourable
Gendunan's measure, for the 'sake of any little, petty, and nap.
rcw plans, which could not afford relief -to the distressed inte-
rests "lhey had heard a great deal from the Noble-Lord about
the prosperity of the commercial interests ; but he believed
that ric man connected with commercial persuits would be
found to corroborate the Noble Lord's statements. With re-
gard to cur manufacturers, he believed that our manufactories
had been considerably. advanced of late ; indeed they had ad-
vanced to a state of activity never before known in this country.
Yet he contended that this prosperity arose from unnatural
catiece, sod could not be expected to last. The increase of the
revenue had been also constantly sounded in their ears, and
upon that ground there was little real cause for congratulation.
He attributed this to the circumstance of wages pot having
yet been adjustedeto the priees of provisions. Every Gentle-
man knew that if he asked his tradesman why his charges were
not •lciwer in consequence of the cheapness of the necessa-
ries of -life, he would be told that the high rate of wages pre-
vented it. Labour being paid for at this extravagant rate,
the workman had more than sufficient for his wants, and that
surplus went to the gin-shop at the ale-house ; and thus
ha the revenues of the Excise swelled up in all parts of the
kingdom. He intreated the House to consider what they
were about to do. They had better leave the core Laws as they
were, and wait until circumstances called for interference.
The old laws gave. a monopoly to the home grower, and the
-new ones would only do the same. Bet, the fact was, that
they wed making those laws without the power of carrying
think into effect, should it ever be necessary to do so. Sup-
;insist that when the rate of wages are brought down, as they
must le, to meet the price of provisions, there should be a re-
verse in the manufacturing interests ; would the population
steed quiet and see the peasant of France and of America
supplied with corn at half the price they were obliged t 1 pay ?
it was quite impossible to conceive that they would. An Hon.
.Friffid of his, the Member for Nottingham, had lately told him
that there never was such a demand for artificers and mecha-
nics as at thepresent moment. It was a cruel thing at any
time to xevent aenan from going to any foreign country freely
and opre-rely ; but to prevent him from carrying his labour to
the best market would be adding injustice to injustice. But
if we oppressed and injured the working classes of mechanics'
byeneesuees intended for the relief of other interests, we should
inevitably drive them to other countries, and our commerce
and manufactures would fall into decay as those of Holland did
from the same cause. With regard to America, if ho had been
told ten years ago that America could become asnanufacturing
coat:try, he should not have believed it ; because where land
might tee 'had for a pound as acre, it was not to be expected
that :nen would shut themselves up in a manufactory in pre-
ference to living independently tipon their own soil. But the
_ manufactories of 'America had, nevertheless, grown up in a
surprising e degre. At Philadelphia the numbers had con-

siderahly increased., arid the peas of those [previously
established had occasioned the starting of nine manufac-
tories there in the last year. He was sure that the mon-
strous proposition of the Noble Lord relative to the ad-
vance of a million for warehousing corn must be abandoned.—,
The question which might then be put to him was, "what
would you do a" And he was ready to grant to the Noble
Lord, that he could see no way which the Noble Lord or the
Government would be bold enough to adopt, that was likely to
afford relief. There-were no measures now upon the table., he
was sure, that could have that result. It was impossible to go
on under the present system of taxation. While every thing.
else had so exceedingly decreased in value, the taxes had been
advanced, at the lowest calculation, which was that cf the
Member -for Portarlington, ten per cent.,; and, according to
himself and others, forty per cent. or more. Thus, within the
last two years, an additional ten millions of taxes had been
levied upon the country. The only thing they could do, then,
was to reduce taxation. That was the only way in which they
could proceed safely, until they understood the question ; for
he contended that every thing they now .did was done in the
dark. The plan of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer he considered to be a round-about way of doing what
might much better, have been done by the simple method pro-
posed by his Hon. Friend, "of empowering the CommiSsienere
of the Sinking Fund to advance a loan of 2,800,0001. annually
until the end of the period for which they were now to contract.
To the country Gentlemen he would say, that they had forced
the Government to this reduction" of 1.100,0001. of taxes, and
he took that with satisfaction, glad to obtain it upon any terms.
If they went on they would obtain double the amount of re-
duction. What he should propose wits that Parliament should
adjourn after repealing the taxes, and leave the question open
until the end of the year, when the House might re-assemble
to consider it. He had felt it his duty to protest against these
measures, because they wculd be injurious to cne class of the
people, and that without any benefit to the -other. He should
take the sense of the House against going into the Committee.
Mr. J. BENET,T contended, that the existing Corn Laws
did not give a monopoly to the grower of this country. The
importations from Ireland within the last four years had been
so great, that the corn imported never could have been grown
in that county. The increase in the proportion of corn over,
the importations of former periods was four-fold, and that of
flour seven-NA. But although he did not -allow that they.
gave the British farmer a monopoly, ,yet he. was desirous of
getting rid of the Corn Laws, and all their oppressive machi-
nery cf averages and other grievances. lie had heard a great'
deal said about consumers, . and he -should be .glad to know
who the consumers in this country were. Fle considered.
them to be chiefly the manufacturing classes, and these' could
only be supported by the prosperity of agriculture. Bence.
the home trade had been diminished by the distress of agri-
•
culture, and it always had and alWays must depend upon
that interest for its prosperity: Some prices could not, there-
fore, benefit them, and the only parties who. would. benefit by
the depreciated value of agricultural produce would be the
money dealers, for whom he should haveno feeling. He con-
sidered the causes of the existing distress to be numerous; but
the first was the transition from war to peace. He had been
pleased with the speech of the Noble Marquis the other night,
because it admitted some of the principles for which he had
had the honour to contend. It admitted that the reduction by
taxation would give relief to the distress of the country.
The Honourable Member then went into a comparative cal-
culation 'of the value of land and produce in 1792. He
would take a farm which should produce' 2000 bushels of
wheat, amounting to 6271.—A third of the gross produce was
in the year 1792 considered as a fair rent. That third would,
of course, be 2091. But at the present time, a fourth of the
produce only could he given as rent, in consequence of the in-1
crease of taxation and poor rates. Now, according to pre-1
sent prices, the landlord received no more rent than he did in
the year 1792; and this he thought was abundantly accounted
for by a reference to the increase he had mentioned in the taxes
and the poor rates. Every one must admit that the landlord
was entitled to a higher rent under these circumstances ; but
he (Mr. Benett) looked to a decrease pf texation for this pur-
pose, as that decrease of itself would in its effects amount to
an advance of rent. When he recollected the number of persons
who were connected with agriculture, he was induced to hope for
sorneetipport in this, his opinion. Much had been said of the
poweroi landlords over rents, but this in a great measure.svae to
be attributed to an attachment to the soil by the tenants. Not-
withstanding this circumstance there were many farms 'out of
cultivation ; and he could instance Somersetshireein which one
of the finest flume in the kingdom was uncultivated; a farM
-he believed in which the Hon. Member for Somersetsidre was
interested. This state of things would not: be remedied by
-mere high price, for they would benefit the merchant and not
the farmer, because high prices would permit 'exportation and
would necessarily lead to it. The principle on Which all his
opinions were founded was, that taxation was in a , great de-
gree the cause of the distress, and that et reduction of one
would contribute to the removal of the other. He had had the
honour to give evidence before a Committee of 'this House, on'
this very subject, on a former Session.; and an idea prevailed
that that evidence was not strictly consistent with his present
opinions ; but a careful examination of his evidence would con-
vince any one that he had fallen into no inconsistency, as the
evidence proceeded on the same principle.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the more correct course
would be to go into the Committee ; indeed this had been un-
derstood on the former discussion to be the intended mode of
proceeding. Even cut of regard to the Righ*Hon. Gentle-
man in the Chair, he Shauld propose the going into a Commit-
teeefor the ,labours-of that Right Hon. Gentleman were such
. as to call for a little relaxation. 1 he subject could be more
rationally discussed in the Committee than in the. House and
he trusted H
Hon. Gentlemen would not wish to decide without
hearing.
Mr. BROUGHAM assured his Hon. Friend that-he did not
treat the projects of Ministers with any more respect than his
HOn. Friend did. He no more admired their pawnbroking
plan than he did any of their other plans, but still he thought
the matter could be best discussed in the Committee. He did
not believe that there was any individual in existence who could
approve of the Corn Laws upon principle ; but he still was for
going into the Committee.
Mr..IIIONEK supported the opinions of the Hon. Member
for Coventry. lie fully agreed in the arguments of the Hon.
Gentleman thatlosv prices were fairly attributable to high tax-
ation. Many honourable Gentlemen had recommended vari-
ous plans for the relief of Agricultural Distress, but none
had, in his opinion, touched upon the true one, namely—
the amount of taxation. With reference to the scale to be
established, he thought that on low prices only could de-
pend the salvation of the country—for while Country Gen:.
tlemen could indemnify themselves for, low prices, he thought
it not likely that they would 'exert themselves for the general
interests. He thought the present Corn Bill quite sufficient
as a measure of protection to the agriculturist against im-
portation. The Hon. Member here quoted Paley, who said,
were it not for the inequality and uncertainty of seasons and
produce, that the farmer would be always in the power of the
landholder, as his returns could be always calculated exactly ;
and argued that the present Corn Bill might be an inconve-
nience to dealers in corn in this country, but not to the growers
of it. He thought therefore that one year with another, no-
thing was so certain as that the supply of corn would 'keep its
fair average ; and that against scarcity or . superfluity, nothing
could so efficaciously operate as a free trade. He understood it
was the intention of Hon. Gentlemen to fix the lowest importa-
tion price at 80s.—(Cries of " No, no and couhing.)—He
thought so, because the proposed duty of 245. would bring the
article up to that price. For 200 years Previous to 1797, wheaa
had never attained the price of 80s.—(The Hon. Gentleman
entered into a number of calculations which the noise rendered
inaudible in the gallery.)
Mr. D. BROWNE recoinmended teethe House the adoption
of the advice giVen by the.ttight Hon. the Member for Water,
ford.—(Crics of "-Question!")
Mr. ELLICE disclaimed the intention of refusing to accede
to his Right Hon. Friend's recommendation. Ile had felt it
his dirty to state his sentiments 'in that stage of the question,
and having done so, he should refer to the opinion of the
House, and withdraw ,his opposition to the Speaker's leaving
the Chair.
After a few words from Sir W. W. WYerx and Sir R.
WlLsore, the House resolved itself into a Committee.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to move the re-
solution for making • advances to the holders of Corn, when
the average price of wheat shall be under 60s. per quarter.—
The Noble Marquis said that this Resolution was perfectly
distinct from the general principle of the Corn Laws, and it
would be an injustice to the Committee as well as to h:s
own opinions, were he not to state that it was clearly understood
the proposed measure could not be adopted or even tolerated
upon general principles. In every respect the proposed mea-
sure was a temporary law ; and although public credit was to
be employed in aid of the corn market,' still it was only for
the exigencies of the particular occasion. That a loss might
arise to justify the adoption of such a measure he had the high
authority of the opinion of the Honourable Member for Taun-
ton (Mr. Baring), who unfortunately could 'not at present at-
tend the House. The Honourable Member he alluded to had
admitted the propriety of advancing three millions to assist
the Agricultural Interest when produce was in a depressed
[ state. This shewed that the opinion of the Member for
. Taunton was not decidedly against the creation of artificial
[ prices. The proposed plan had indeed been called b
an Honourable and Learned Member (Mr. Brougham),
a pawrihroking arrangement ; and he (the Marquis of Lon-
: donderry) himself .wished: to be understood as not being
a friend to the system of it., All he contended was, that
a case might occur winch would 'render the sanction of such a
measure politic as well as necessary, under particular circtim-
. stnneesa The present lie thought was a pressing case, and

such, therefon. as to call ftir an extraordiaaty and.. particular
remedy. In order that the °House 'Might 'clearlY• see the prin-
ciple they were called upon to consider, it would be proper to
notice the two chief propositions which had been discussed in
the Agricultural Committee. One was for the: purchase of
corn by. an Agent of Government, when it should.be at a stated
low price ; the other was for encouraging, by bounties, the•
purchases of private individuals. After much discussion, the
first was laidasitle,though he could not but observe that no re-
proach could be thrown upon the proposer of the plan, seeing
that the lion. Membeafor ,Paunton
,approved of it generally.
It was laid aside, however' after one of the most calm and
temperate discussions isc had ever witnessed ; • because it
was considered that the purchaer of corn for the Government
would not have the exact sort of influence which was desir-
able. individual interest ytt'as tbatrwhich it was wished to cre-
ate ;
.and the agent who mightle employed by. Government
could not be supposed to feel-that. control over his conduct
which would be occasioned lay a sense of his own interest.—
Looking at the other proposition, the Committee thought they
might adopt it, - and:afar& relief without violating any general
principle. The whole policy of :this - proposed arrangement
arose out of the -circutastatemnotieed by the Committee re-
specting the state of. the market. They found that. the quan-
tity of corn brought to market in the early months of the year,
doubled the quantity brought within the same.months in several
preceding years. FroM this they inferred, and very naturally,
that the market this year displayed a superabundance which
' caused a ruinous competition anion the sellers. The lat-
ter could .not reduce -the interest they were paying upon
Mortgages; althoughtheir prices had thus fallen ; and a mea-
sure of some description was therefore considered necessary,
becausethe market was not in a natural state. Indeed it was
' obvious that if the number of tellers became doubled; while
that a buyers remained, stationary, there must be a losini;
competition among the former'. It was therefore conceived
thatif 'additional pachasers .could be created, it would coun-
teract the disposition to inundate the market. Ile must here
obstrie; that it was by .:no means a fair description of the pre-
, serg.ineasure to say. that it merely proposed to raise the price
of corn. In fact a -conVenient distribution was all that was de-
' sired; this would be accomplished by giving an additional
1 degree of facility to foreliasea. He really thought that the
idea of a law to raise-prices had been long since exploded in
that, House..--The'pre.sent increase would have the effect of
protecting the farmer against too early a market, to which at
present he was in many cases compelled to resort. Doubts,
however, had been thrown -•,.ut as to the practical operation of
this measure, and he himself had considered it as laid aside, be-
cause it could not be operative. It had been thought that the
difficulty was not so much in. the absence of capital, as
Iliadic want of a confidence, that it might- be employed to
advantage. He had last year proposed a monthly. allow-
ance, because he thought it would be active in its operation.
.The preaent, undoubtedly, had other advantages, inasmuch
as it would give general relief to the extent of its ope-
ration. Still -he confessed that he preferred the other
plan ; as it might prove an invitation to enterprise.—
One Advantage, however, of the proposed measure was, that
if it did no kood, it certainly could do no harm, and this,
he believed, the Remise would consider as no mean -advan-
tage when they were trying an experiment.—(A
corn should not rise, no one would suffer -from the measure ;
and if it should rise,* the agricultural interest would be re-
lieved from the multiplied distress with which it was at present
surrounded. He certainly had not voted for this plan in the
Committee ; his own proposal had not been Adopted ; and he
had therefore left the Whole subject to the consideration of the
t ommittee a and it was- in deference to the judgment of that
Committee that he brought the proposal before the House for
its. favourable opinion.• After an eulogium on the character
and talent of the Members composing the Committee, the
Noble Marquis proceeded to observe, that he had learnt from
many of those Members, that the measure now proposed was •
that which the farmers thought would afford them the most
relief. Whether they -were right or wrong in this conjecture
he believed the House would be sorry to reject a favourite
proposition which, at all events, was harmless ; for the farmers,
if it were rejected, would not very unnaturally attribute the
continuance of their' -distress to' its rejection. Ile had now
briefly stated the grounds upon which lie brought
.forward a
proposal to which, upon principle, he objected, and which he
had not supported in the Committee. Should the House admit
the principle there would be little difficulty in deciding upon
particulars ; and he might be allowed to express his hope that
no other subject would .be mixed up with a discussion of the•
preSent. -Before he sat down he would observe, that although
the plan might have been brought forward earlier in the year,
yet as there •were many months to elapse before the getting in
of thelarvest, there would be ample time for.its operation. If
the House should adopt this resolution in an early part of the
evening; he should-. propose the next, allowing foreign corn
to be ground for the purpose of exportation. Tho Noble Mar-
quia then mauled- the Resolution which has been already before
the public, authorizing the.advance of one million upon corn in
warehouse, when the average price of wheat shill he under 60s.
per quatter.— .
Mr. CURWEN!thOught the Noble Marquis would' have
opened the whole of his . plan, which would then have enabled
the House to judge of its practicability, of which he (Mr. C.)
very much doubted. :If the proposal immediately under con-
sideration should inducepurchasersait assuredly would prove a
i benefit ; but in order to ts doing so, he thought it ought to be
permanent. Bounties, he thought, should always be-insepa-
rable from-protecting duties. The proposal would even as a
temporary measure be productive of no harm. The:argument
of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ellice) proceeded upon the
assumption' that all these measures • were for the protec-
tion of one class, at the expence of another. This was
an erroneous idea ; for the. object of Corn Bills was • prin-
cipally to entourage cultivation at home. Tlse price of
foreign, corn would always be regUlated, not by the cost of
its, production, but .by .the , wants of this country ; and, un-
less we encouraged our own agriculture, we, should be at
the mercy of foreign countries; who would regulate their
prices exactly by our wants. if what was called a free trade
were to be allowed, Whate'he asked, was to become of the
agricultural classes of England ? It . had been said, that they
would find other employment. This he positively denied.—
From the improvements which had taken place in machinery,
he knew that manufacturers: were amply stocked with hands;
and that half a million at least of Tale persons connected
with agriculture would in such a case be actually
On • a future occasion :he should fully - explain his reasons
for disapproving generally of the plan of the Noble. Mar-
quis (Londonderry y. At". present he would Merely observe,
that he would only extend protection against the over,
whelming quantity of foreign: produce which was likely
to come in upon the opening of the ports. He protested
against the assertion that this plan was intended only. for the
protection of landlords. • He only asked for fair prices, in order,
that the country might be kept in a state of cultivation. He
perfectly agreed in opinion% with the Noble. Marquis that the.
present plan might do good, and at all events could do no harm.
Ile wished he could say as much of the other propositions of
the.Nbble Marquis. '
Mr. LEYCESTER OppOsed the Resolution. Ile thought
it most unjustifiable to apply -the public money to raise the
price of bread. If the present prices were forced and unna-
tural, they-would, he had:ner doubt, soon find their proper
scale. Ile by no means agreed with the Noble Marquis as to.
the harmlessness of the present measure: He thought it would
work considerable mischief.

Mr. HUSKISSON said, that in expressing his objection to
the Resolution, he should be as brief.as possible, and would
confine himself to the'immediate question. He now understood
that this was to.be merely a: temporary measure. Before, he
had inferred it was to he permanent ; and that advances to the
amount of a million were always to he made whenever the price
should. be under 60s. ;Heobjectedalso to the time at which it
was proposed to apply this.relief. If the description of his
Noble Friend as to the' excess in the market at the early part
of the year was correct, the persons intended to be benefitted
by this measure were nolongex in existence as sellers. They
were now purchasers. If, therefore, the measure would at all
raise the price, it would aggravate the distress of the smaller
farmers. It would, indeed, add to the present difficulty.—
He admitted that we were at present in an artificial state ;
and on that account he did not so much object to the mea-
sure. His objection was founded on the persuasion that
the plan now proposed would afford no substantial' relief. If
there was any one case in which the Government should avoid
all interference, he thought it the present. What would
have been the effect had this measure passed last Session ? The
distress at that time was then very pressing ; and if a million
had been then advanced on the terms now contemplated, the
effect he was convinced would have been to raise the price to
80s. and thus open the ports.: He had examined the prices for
the fall of last year. On the Bth of September they were as
low as 5155., and on the 29th, only twenty-one days afterwards,
they were as high as 705., being. an advance of 30 per cent.
Had large purchases been made in the interim, would not the
certain effect have been to raise the price to 80s. ? In his
opinion the million now .proposed would he applied 'for on
the prospect of a rise. There would be a competition between
those who paidthree and those who paid five per cent: He was
decidedly ofsopinion that the: market should be left to its ordi-
nary operation. And he could not assent to the propriety of
purchasing damaged corn, especially if there should, as lie be-
lieved there would, be a food harvest this year. If in such' a
case damaged corn should be purchased, there was much
danger that it could not be brought into use, except in a year
of great scarcity. The • project, altogether, of purchasing
damaged earn, reminded him of the situation of unhappy bbr.
rowers, who were ,cmpelled -to take' damaged "goods for cash.
He repeated that the market had better be left in present
situation. Prices- and rents were beginning -.to adjust them-
' selves ; and every measure interfering with that natural ad-

justment he considered impolitic. Such measurra would do I
either nothing at all, or too much. If the harvest should be
good, no one would apply for the benefit of the mea -ure ; if
bad, there would be a general scramble for the money. The
whole measure would be inconvenient as a precedent, and
would lead us into embarrassment,. and he should therefore give
his decided opposition to the motion.
Sir JOHN SEBRIGIIT said, he had spoken with many
farmers on the proposed measure, and not one of them thought
it would be of-any service to them.. He entirely concurred in
the sentiments of the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last.
Sir JOHN SHELLEY agreed in opinion with the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that the proposed measure would be produc-
tive of harm.
Mr. WHITMORE said that no information had been laid
before the Committee which could justify them in having re-
course to such a measure as this. He had himself been obliged
to thresh out his corn immediately, and carry it to market to
prevent it from mouldering on his hands ; and this had been
the case with most of the farmers in his neighbourhood. The.
corn of the last year would be perfectly unsaleable after the
next harvest, and the measure would consequently be wholly
inoperative.
Lord CRANBOURNE spoke in favour pf the projected
measure. He could never think it would. be productive of
harm, but on the contrary he
,atiticipated'rauch good from it.
It would prevent those speculations in corn which were so much
dreaded and deprecated by thoSe whose interests wc.r.:l bound
up in the agriculturists. It would ethble them* to keep that
commodity from suffering the depreciation to which it was
hastening.
Mr. 1). GILBERT. thought the proposition of the Noble
Lord was not calculgted to atford any relief to the agricultural
interest.

Mr. CRIPPS was disposed to give the Noble Lord every
possible credit forleis motives in bringing forward the present
measure; but he believed no agriculturist had
.ever supposed
that it vas calculated to afford the Slightest relief. He thought
the best tbing that could be done was to iinpOse a perrnanent
duty upon grain imported.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL begged leeve to say a few words in
contraversion of what had been stated by a Right Honourable.
Gentleman (Mr., Ilti4kissori.) . He could not sit still and allow
the remedy, perhaps the only. remedy, which the Committee
had been able to devise, to be'thus treated. Amid the difficulties
with which the Committee had had to struggle, he felt that the
House, the Agriculturists, and the country, had been indebted
to the Noble Marquis, and that they should thank him.—
(Hear !)—He had not only assisted them in the Committee, but
had come down from the 'Committee to assist them in the
.House.. He felt himself perfectly at liberty to appeal to the
Agriculturiste—to ask them what was their situation, and then
to ask the House whether it could pause in adopting any
scheme which held out a Promise of relief ?
Mr. WODEHOUSE hoped his reasons for intruding him-
self upon the notice of the House would appear a sufficient
justification. Ile did not wish to leave the Noble Lord in the
lurch. He had supported in the Committee the proposal for
advancing- half it million. The proposition, however, came a
little too late., .11e was astonished that any one should suppose
that the greater part Of the evil fell upon the little farmers, as
it was really the farmers of this description who always paid
their rents with the greatest ease.
Mr. BANKES did not object to this measure on account of
its deviation from strict principle. Every Government, be
thought, ought to have that tower of force within itself ag'to be
able to. accommodate principle to the public good. No interest
in this or any other country could have a greater claim to the
aid of a Government than that which was suffering. The ware-
housing of corn would prevent an excess of price. lie did not,
however; mean to say that the proposition had his entire ap-
probation.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to explain. He
was desirous of not being misunderstood, and he chose that par-
ticular moment in the discussion after he had heard the senti-
ments of his valuable Colleagues. With regard to what had
fallen from the Noble Lord behind him (Lord Cranbourne), he
begged to remind him that if he did not vote for his own mea-
sure, he would not leave him (the Marquis of Londonderry)
in the lurch, but hiMself.—(Hear, hear ! and a laugh.)—With
all deference to his good judgment lie could not propose
in the House what he would not vote for in the Committee.
At all events let the saddle be placed on the right horse.—(.t
'laugh.)—The proposition had been supported 'in a very tame
manner, and if he did not bear some more .actual support—if
none of the parental feelings of a father for his offspring were
shewn from the Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Irving) who
originated it—he certainly should not press it upon the House,
-having done his duty in making the proposition. The ques-
tion had nothing to do with good or bad harvests, which had
been mixed up with it. It was about the markets, and was not
affected by the nature of the, supply. Good or bad the corn
would be consumed according to the -principles of nature, and
not of any abstract ncitions.- All the purchases were to be made
after the price was 605., and it was evident it would tend to
mitigate .the rapidly rising prices. He did not consider the
measure would be inoperative in present state 'of the mar-
kets, but he avowed that he did not think that much benefit
was to be anticipated from it. Oncel more he begged to say,
that if the remaining. Members of the Committee did not raise
their voices to convince the House of the wisdom of their plan,
he gave notice that he would not divide the House upon it.—
.(Hear, hear.)
Mr. IRVINE said he was the father of the proposition in
the Committee, and he now begged. leave to state, if it were not
for the delicacy he always felt in addressing the House, that he
would have long before offered himself to their notice: Although
his proposition was called absurd, he still was not ashamed of it,
and he could sefely state; that he did not propose it without
much consideration. He was sedulous in his attendance on the
Committee,—not so the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Brougham), who never went near it. The measure, such as it
was,was not his alone, it was that of the Committee who adopt-
ed it. When he proposed the advance of a million, it was to
give an increase to our circulation, which he long felt to be too
contracted for the operations of the country. • Besides it tended
to relieve the market from ehe pressure of a glut, and gave a
certain power of keeping the supply equal to the demand, with-
out any excessive rise in the price. Notwithstanding ell he had
heard, he considered the measure useful, without the danger of
disadvantage, and as such he still adhered to.it. He was called
upon rehictantintly. He now answered reluctantly, nor could
he be satisfied the measure was so alaeurel as it had been desig-
nated.--(CoUghing, and cries of Question !)

Mr. T. WILSON thought, that by advancing money to as-
sist in raising the price of Corn, would- have the effect of en-
couraging the culture -of Corn, and thus be highly serviceable
in-giving employment to the lower class of the Agriculturists.
It appeated to him thht the sacrifice was so small, the advan-
tage so gteat, that lie thought in the midst of the calls made
upon them by the Agriculturists, they ought not to hesitate to
adopt it. The consequence of not taking some such. steps
Would be to throw lands out of cultivation.
Mr. BROUGHA.NI • regretted extremely that he should by
his conduct with reference to this Committee have laid himself
open to the pathetic animadveisions of the Hon. Member for
Bramber (Mr. Irving.) He cettainly ought from the solemn
calls of friendship, to have been present at the bringing forth
of the Hon. Member's project, and possibly he might had he
not been four degrees of North Latitude distant, at the time
that he and the Committee were brooding over it. He was
against sending such subjects as this to a Committee up stairs,
even if they *ere to examine the question with that vigour
and unity which was so completely the reverse of their prac-
tice.' But, in his view, it was to Government they ought
to look for relief in the circumstances of the country ;
and the Government that knew not how to afford relief
was unfit for its duty.. He :was most ready to give apt-
Cultural relief, but he could not think that the proposed
experiment would succeed. A precedent, it was true,
was afforded in the case of the manufacturer, but no deposit
was then asked. It could only have the effect of raising or
keeping up the price, but that would be of no service to those
Who were in distress, as they had no produce to go to market
with. The only advantage of the measure would be to advance
money to the farmer at 3 per cent. instead of 4, and thus save
him 1 per cent.' He therefore, with all inclination to give the
farmers even the semblance of relief, must say, that he thought
this measure inconvenient and inefficacious, and must disagree
with many of his friends on the subject, with whom he was in
the habit of concurring.
Mr. IRVING made a few observations in explantion.

i%lr. HUSKISSON explained. The Hon. Members for
Norfolk and Kent had been so kind as to read him a lecture,
to which, with all deference, he was not disposed to attend,
and he would tell them why. In consequence of some obser-
vations whiCh had been made. relative to the motives of his
(Mr. H.'s) attendance on the Committee, had induced him out
of consideration to his character to abitain from attending it.—
The Qornmittee in his absence th=l brought forward a measure
which was inconsistent with his known sentiments on the sub-
iect, and called upon him to support that measure. He begged
leave to say that he.would do no. such thing. If he held his si-
tuation or his seat in that House upon any such tenure as that
of following their recommendations; the sooner he gave them up
the better. • _ _ _ _

Mr. Alderman BRITT-ES made a few observations, which
were not audible in the. Gallery.

The :Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that having
brought the Resolution under discussion, he was at liberty to
withdraw it, which he therefore proposed to do, in consequence
of the way in which it had been treated.
The Resolution wa.4 then permitted to be withdrawn.
Mr. BROUGHAM hoped. the NoblelVlarquis would allow
the Second Resolution to follow the first.—(A laugh.)
On the motion of the , Marquis of LONDONDERRY, the

Chairman :e?ortecl progress, dna obtained leave to sit again to-
morrow.

The Servants' Felonies Bill was read a fist time, and ordered
to be read a second time on Thursday se'nnight.
The Scotch Criminal Bill was read a third timz, and passed.
Th;.. other Orders of the Day having been disposed of, the
House adjourned at Eleven o'Clock.