The Sun.
London, England, 1809-05-20 00:00:00

IRISH TITHES.

On the motion' of •Mr. PARNELL, the Petitions
presented last Session from the (~.lueen's Ceunty,
and the County of Kerry, against Tithes, having
been 'read,
Mr. PARNPLL observed, that in addition to these,
reselutions were passed by the county of Tippers ry
and ,the coenty of Clare (a Petition 'froth which
had by some means failed in reaching the .House),
the county of Wicklow, and the county of Armagh4
Had the other counties °Firebird taken the same sub
jet, into tonsiderat ion, he was persuaded that they
would have adopted similar proceedings. He was also
convinced that -the great majority ,of the Clergy of
Ireland were favourable to some tuelioratioti of
preseet system of tithes.; and he by no means attri,-.
butea to them the cause of the -grievances complaiu-
ed of, In Ireland, there was no collection of small
tithe.) ; cattle were exempt from tithes, and tiax par
daily so. The Clergy of Ireland did not receive any
thinglikea tent 1t,,t0 which they were entitled. He
had inquired, and he (mind that we wheat, which
might- fairly afford twenty-four shillings 'an acre,
the „valuation was only 7s. 81, that on oats, which
might atferd t U. the value wes ,only es. ; that on
poutoes, which might affect QB3. the valuation was
l• only Bs.;' and that on meadow, which might afford
12s. (hi. the vidumion was only di. .Her, therefore,
should do injustice to the Clergy if be tetributed to
them, generally speakingf oppression in the levying
of the tithes. The body of Cathoties had systema-
tically abstained from taking part in the public meet-
ings to ire!and on this subject; lest it should be itn-
puted to them that they wished to .interfere in any
way with the Protestant Church establishment; nor
bad these petitions originated in any party feelings,
but on a general view oiliest which would conduce
to the interests of the Empire. In the last Session
he had given notice that he would submit to the
House a caption for reletring the subject lo the con,'
sideration of a Comuentee ; but having spoken to
the Right Hon. Gentlemen an opposite on the snbjeet,
Bight Hun. Gentleman bad stated, that he ,
would, perhaps, feel himself justified in propos-
ing a measure so enable.' Incumbents of parishes
to grant leases to their parishioners, He had, there-
fore, deferred hie motion nntil the present- Sebaion
but bating recently understood that the Right 'ion.
Gentlemsn had abandoned this intention, the duty re-
verted.to him, and be should therefore feel it his duty,
in preference to rieferriog the subject to a Committee
of the whole House, to move, for leave to bring in a
Bill tea enahle the Met:tube:Vs of parishes,to grant
lams 1-04'111 years to their parishioners • a measure
to a. part of wbicli at least the flight Hon. Gentle.

ode uectored that he hard nn OW walk Ile then, entered into a detailed examination cf Cot
nkture And tendency of tithes; •adducine the opinions
:of Mr. Adam Smith and Dr. Paley, -as well as these.
Contained in:krecent publication by Air. Thompson:, •
to show their injuriens tendency to cm-it:Ult.:re. Ia
Ireland, it was imposaible for a- persou Uf .the lowe,C
order,toexist without being an occupier of lap& an 4
from such persons it„was of course ftequently
possible for.the Clergymanao raise his tithes; withe
,
out resorting to ifteans ag,air'lat which these 'persona,
had not the power of detence. tYe read an .extra&
of a speech made at a. public meeting. in' Ireland,
:which censured the prthice of the Proaora in that
eouptry, and chartherised them as wholly despotic!.
The same people were goaded almost to madness by
protiorship, who felt no grievance When treating
direly with the Clergymen, Of the whole popu-
lation of freland called upon to pay tithes not a tentli
belonged to ,the established Church. The popula-
tion
was five millions, of whieh four miliiong,
were of the Catholic persuasion ; and of the
nut belonging to the eatholic religion, one halt were
Dissenters from the Established Church. He quoted
Mr. Pitt's Speech previous to the Unioo; to prove
that it was the opinitef of that great Statesman, thct
the mode of colleding tithes in Ireland was a great
praaical evil; and concluded by moving for leave tot
bring in a Bill accordingly. .
The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHRQUER felt him-
self compelled to oppOse the introduction of this
.and at the same time he.gave the Hon. Gentleman
credit for the faithfulness of the statements he had
made of his former opinions, would take the oppor-
tunity of mentioning the reasoos for holding the
opinions he now did. The Kin. Gentlerneu had
not favoured them with the 'detail, of the mode of .
remedying the evil ; but yet it was the difficulty of
proposing.this that had induced hint to abandon. the
designs he had formerly etittrtained. He (Mr. Per-
ceval) had intended by his measure to quiet the
minds of the.people of Ireland ; tic Moo. Gentles-
man, in his ulterior, ohjed, rather tetided to create
expedtations, and augment the feelinga of discontent
already entertained. This was a sufficient cause for
his looking on the Bill with an unfavourable
But. there were other objeilions, for the Ffou. Gett.
ileman's objeli would. be to. 'divert the Pseveeuea of
the Church to other purposes than the Chnror
tabliSliment. The Rut. Gentleman had said; and
he did not deny the truth of it, that there were ma-
ny persons ti nxion4 to get rid of.the present system;
but ifit, ware explained to these .people, that if any
change took place they would have to pay much
more than they now did, they would not be anxious
for such a commutation as was now asked-for.,-.•
By the statements °fate lion. Gentleman it appeai-- '\
ed, that the tithes of Ireland were not paid at pre- .
sent to the amount of 5o per, cent. of their value;
and if an alteration was made, ' they must be calcu-
lated at their full rate, and the people would indeed,
as they were told, .have no tithes to pay, but would •
have twice as much to pay to their. landlords, Tho
Right Hon. Chancellor said, if this were ettplttine4
to tbein,- they, would not be -hul to petition, for the
aho!itiou of tithes. - imagined ho.stood on good
grounds in opposing, this Bill, as It Was stated to he
merely introaatory to other steps which he tmi't
disepproxe. On its own merits, however„buthouht
it evilly to be reje;aoa. fie would wish to !:now
whether the Bill was t,) hill wao to be obligatory, or
mealy enahling the to rebeve rrishouers.
If the latter, the power existed at the prt. swu MG-
inent, and the" ant would he negatory.,4rit it were to
allow a clergyman to bind his .suecessur, the lion.
Gentleman must have seen the °bier:lions to this
mode. by wheels a person would receive. a great port
of the value at once, and le:Re his succe.sser at a
amall and inadequate rent. Tlte Hon. Gentlemen
would find it impossible to mm trmnouot this clitlictiltv.
The Right Hon. Gentleman Oleo wetrit into a Livraii,
showing that a number of inkuratonntable clitlicultley
attended this. part..of the wahject, and that such leases
as the Hon. Mo.ver thought might bis easily gratiteci,.
'Could not by any arrangement with the Bishop, or
otherwise, he'fairly and properly aseerta?ned in va-
lue,
or (*ranted in Taal to the advantage of the tenant.
—He 1.1 ad 'a
no t her otijeetion, namely, to milling a
measure of this Ron apply particularly to Ireland,
Which, in his Opinion, it it were entertaine at all,
ought to apply goOt-rally. Upon all the,reconsidora7
Lions, he trusted the House would negative the Fo-
sent motion.
Mr. TI4HE 'supported the motion, and contended
that nothing but a general measure Would,satisty the
people of Ireland--.nothing bat the couimutotion oX
abolition of tithes. He asserted. that Mr. Pitt was
pledged to this measure, and had carried the Union
on these grounds.

• L

Mr. D. BnowNa anxiously wished, his Miiitilty's
Ministers would turn their attention to this Bill, or
some measuro of she same kiud, ,to remove the,
watch-Vvord of every roveitt and insurrection in Ire-
land.

Mr. GRATTAN also spoke in 'favour of the 1301.
He described the Tii he Prtiaor tt.s t he most arbitrary,
oppressive, great little' man in eeistenec ; one who
cheated not only the poor men but the,pariee, end
Whose beieg at all depended ons the ina4,.(4;1,4ty of
the present law. odium which fell ee the
Proctors, roses from them to the Parson, smd from
,the Parson %yes trensfeee.l to the Government, tlttis
involving the whole interests of the Empire. It
would not be necessary, in making this cioent?ute.
tion, to go into a valuation offithee, het merely
to commete then' into the amount now enjoyed by
. the Clergyman. Tithes, he contentle4, were ties.
treetiVe of agriculteral labour and industry, b),
creasing in proportiOn to the produce of the lands..
This would be avoided were a modus settled, end
they paid a certain fixed tithe as well as a fixed rent.
He knew an instance of an agreement between a
Clergyruau and his parishioners, similar to whet the
Bill would ena& into a general law, and it letd heel)
attended with great advantages as well to the Clergy
man as to the cultivators of the ground. This CK):lio
mutation of tithes would be one of the greetest
blessings th4t could be devised for ltelend, and
guarding against the ildlutition of money, he trust-
ed, would soon be carried into effed.
Mr. Matratou FITZGERAtiI thought it a subjel.l
of great importance to Ireland, and that seine peki
.might be Hoare even at this advanced period of the
Session,' He tben entered at large into the state of
the peesanny in Ireland, who, he said, ;Vert',
during the winter, compelled to subsist on potatoes
and water. Yet these persons were, compelled, gout
of their sotity means, to py tithes, which, elite le

IL cl been found necessary to abolish u
..su're. Fle then ener.l•zr
A-tlihr Y0w1..., to prove that the tithes piess-k.
..,v !h,t: Cower orders ofsuciety, while the opu-
.,vvrt-• hhhtleCled by thew. •
. replied to the principal argu-
:-:Tirs of the List Speaker. He did not know the
peasair,ry a Ireland were in that iniseiable situation
(16cri'ut.t.,1 by the Hon.Gentleinan, it it were sb, he
t ti!hught it could not be caused by uny thing but op-
Tvession'on the part of the landlord. Before circurn-
stinces of Cris naltire were brought forward, it
have,been well had the Hon. Gentleman de-
seine etreCtnal remedy for potting a stop to
flie evil complained of. He concluded by oppuiing
the muthhif.

--- - -
Mr. M.,F1'1`.20131f ALa dud Mr. INVINAuon-ToN se-
„
expramcd.
l.rr Ccoxita said that he had often turned his at-
_ teat! en to the subject of the tytlr system of Ireland,
and ircr.:cr had duce so without coming to a' con-
ch:4)oli that this system was a great inconvenience,
it a severe grievance to that part of the Empire.
Nu one conld feel more desirous than he did to
Aeniur,l or altar the oppresiive parts of. it ; he felt it
to' be the conviction of his mind, that some modifi-
. cation would be useful, and he felt it to. be his pub-
' tic duty to take the first fair and favourable opportu-
nity of rtrecAing but it was thosq very tedings
that ob:iged him to oppose the motion of the Hon:
Gtitlen) in, which fix sincetely thought would rett,
der. more difficult* it not altogether impo3sible,
the
erfedive remedy of the evils complained aglinst.
111 the lint place, the_ titue at which this measure
- is proposed is totally unsuitably, at so late a period
of the 5,,,560n, to ewer on a subject of such vast
importance, such intricate detail, and such various
interests, u.suld be in laa to insure its defeat, and
by such defeat to create a prejudice against it, when
-hereatier,hyoupt forward at a fitter seeson. tie
- thought, tou, ilia as a remedy of the system, it was
inadequate, and he could not think :that
ng the Clergy to inake'tythe leases for 2 years,
Woufil in any considerable degree alleviate tire pres,
sure on the peasaat and the-poor. But his great ob-
jemioa to the motion.arose out of his anxious wish
to ainehoraie•the existing system, because the.pro-
posed Bill went in.part to perpetuate .it ; it went to
Pit'l ge. the gored faith of Parliament to a continuation
of it for 21 years at least, during which time no
chatige could be propose.d ; but it' went farther, and
extended its existence fur 21 years, from he date of
any future lease that might be made under it, before
the al.ual change sittitild bo approved; so that at
whate:er future time We should agree to a modin-
Catio of t he, system, 21 years must elapse before it
cue eifedual. Under these circumstances,
an tenor this pressing consideration,. he telt himself
04dg:Al, as a friend tollw principle of tytbs reform,
to ornme the introduc.tion ul the preseut sill, which.
tu‘ist inevitably delay, and would probably prevcrit
(or i.ver that relortn.
Mr. .0u rcatsittos supported the motion, and..
visited Cientiemen would inform the insekves of eke
taste of lreltn.l, at w;%ich they appeared grossly
ignorant, by. tuAiti!, the requisite inqUiry.
Mr. hter:c:r thought. with so !midi bthinesA
be-
fore them, ct would be best to put otfili-e discussion.
till the .enseing Sessions; and concluded by moving
the previ"us question.
Mr. WrieurAt Vu ace lamented, that the information
pekoe the House of the real state of tre- land was so
scanty. .Some steps should be tal.,en to coositkee the
people that ,karliamenr-..were nut . inattentive to
their welf.tre. He preferred voting for the pre-'
vious question- to giving the motion 'an absolute ne-

gait ve.
Mr. CANintIG, after some observations on the
importance and difficulty aqathed to the discussion
of the qut'stion,. remarked, that on various Galt-
Siam they had given.their votes in consideration of
time, prudence, pradicability, chance ot doing good,
kc. on the. one aide-ag,aitist the prpbabiiity ot doing
mischief; on the other. The SATtirSt state in IN hieh
the pliblie mind could ;pos.thi ay, be. len', was ilia in
which they' were of opinion '4otbething was .rrons,
and in which every one was left to torsi his own
e-,nijedures,' as to the mean's which Oqht to be
t Iken to bring about a change. It' was nor common
move the .previons question, wlien a Member
inijyeil'for:leaveto bring in a Bill ; bui if voting for
the previoits question (which he considered as mina-
mount to a total negative)•WaS preferred to nega-
til tug the motion in thie costomai y manner, he had
otvthon to vote for it.- Under those circuit).-
stinees ‘vlikch, rettdtred the digeussion so important,
daiieult,'tand contAca,ed, he did not think it would
t,le2sivisable to enter in t h present -Session on a dis:
c,.04105t, which: the Ho:t. (ientlemen opposite must
could not be gone throngh with, as it would
u. kvorse to tell the people of' Ireland that a remedy
ee.ts anting, but that that returify•cuuld not be ap-
thao 0) let iblngs remain as they were for the
vvre those who thonght tithos ,
wit( he winnly done awav, or at feast abated, as a
tntii,„nce, but that was_ not his opinion ; and it leave
inovt:tl to• bring in a Bill to that eflet% ha
1,k..t:;c1 stand up in his place to oppose granting leave
tct taitig <Ale. 41 Ott Such e principle. He wished to
ktio < how" tar the Bill wits grounded on local prim-
The Hot'. t.-ktittletnan conld not imagine the
ot ought in, conk! go through* its Cutntuittees,
Site cotimt.'ot the preseut Session ; would it
sh.r„ then postpone it (ill the beginning
tie Ses..ion, when the 11C.tisar3i inhlr- •
,n,t•ot. onght ire acquired, and `the merits of the 811 l
? Gehlielllllll must con-
the Vrotesiatit Church of. Ireland ns the only
43tdblislittiOlt Of the eouotry, ~that 4.1
fee - sustained by an income, arising from the
and .that it nst.lat be perManent its the consti. ,
i'etiott t the country. • The Right Hon: Gentleman,
t to- at few farther remarks, concluded, again stating
ready to negative it in it modified way, by
..(aing for (lie previous question.
.\V‘i..aaatrouce eti,plained. • .
r(rNSOWAY thought, that as it was 'unlawful
to dillltte the permanency of thei'mte.tani ChurCh,
the. Hnt. ,Secretary might have
.ppred the
tie-had made on that head. Re thought
t••• ineipal objection to the interference of Paha.
st 4:i hail proceeded . Eiden the Clergy,' who were
•I,tn'ediensiVe that it they once undertook thelegula-
,,,,,it or ecclesiastical affairs, they might go to tt
k:ttgi I hat' would he injurious to them. ,The Chan-

LONDON :- Printed by. R I I
At the ;-.r.,.uti-otir,

ee;tor of the E.....cheetkr had opposed the motion,
because he thOnght no thood..could be done. The
Hight Honourable GenTletnan had opposed it, be-
eause'be thought the House could not.decide on the
tui'rits of the case in-the course of the prescm Ses-
sion: The one spoke as if -he would perpetually
oppose it, the other held out hopes that it might
pereutter be discussed. The obstacles to the discus-
sion might be great, -but. they were nut insuperable,
and he tholight that something ought to be done to
ameliorate the situation of the people in Ireland,
or that they ought to be convinced nothing could be
done. His 'Honourable Friend , had acted wisely in
not bringing forward his mmion before, as the
Honourable Gentleman opposite last year held out
hopes the;; he would have-done something to better
their condition ; his Honourable Friend therefore
had done well to wait thus long, as the motion he
had to make could only be carried when brought
forward, or at least supported by Government.—
The Honourable Gentleman then vindicated the
Irish landlords, who he did not believe
,were as op,
pressive as the Honourable Gentleman seemed to
Chink they were, and concluded, expressing,it as bis'
opinion; that the motion ought not to be negatived,
though no hopes could . entertained of getting
the:11111 through the House in the. course of the pre-
Sent 3tiiioll.. •

Mr. M• NAUGHTON explained, he had not stated
the Irish landlord's were oppressive, he had only stat-
ed he did nal know the peasantry were.,o deplorably
situated, and that he could not imagine the cause, if
i he' landlords were-not severe. -

After a few words from Mr. HUtchinson on the
state of the people in Ireland, Mr. M'Naughton and
Mr. Canning severally explained; as did the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who obserVed, that when-
ever the subje might be brought forward again,
unless the Hon. 'Gentleman afforded him some in •
formation that he was not then possessed of, he
should again oppose the motion.
Mr. PA Net.L shortly replied, if persons who were
not of the Established Charc!v were convened to
contribute- towards suppoit, it was his opinion
they ought to be allowed to give their contributions
in the way most agreeable to themselves. With re,
site& to what had been said as to his bringing for-
ward his motion too late in the Setsion, as tie un-
derstood the Chancellorof the ExchentLfr tor Ireland
intended bringing forward his Budget on Wednes-
day next, he did nut expea. it •would have been
thought too late to Make H motion of that nature,
when be found it was not considered too late in the
Session to impose new b"urdins on the people of
Ireland.
A division took place, when there appeared- •
• For the previous question - -137
.Ataitist it:, - • - 62 •
Majority for the previousqueslion •

~ . .
I hr.." Alotion of eJurse wit% lost.
On the mot iott of Lor.tCnsTLeng xlfir, !Tie Amend-
ments Matit.! by. the Lorifts to the Militia 6.mtpletion
Bill were taken into consideration. • , '

The Amendment which went to expunge the
words or the adjoining counties;' was ohjetted to
by Lord CJsttereagli ; and the House concurring with
him, 'Committee was appointed to state to their
Lordships the grounds on which they,
,disapproved
of their amendment.

Lord H. Pn-ot moved that the further Considera-
tion or this Report of the 'Committee on Public Ex-
penditure shotild be postponed till Tuesday hesuitigfir.
tie regretted the delay caused by the Chancellor of
ibe Exchequer, who had however been brought at
length to give what he rarely gave, an opinion on the
stihje4L,_
The ciLIANC4LLOU of the EXC.I4EQUErt was of
opinion it was somewhat strange that the Noble
'Lord should accuse him of seldom giving an opinion
when he so often gave an opinion diametrically.op.
polite: to his. He proposed to postpone the Com-
mitter: till Tuesday se'unight, and then accused hint
of the delay. He then entered into an explanation
of his conduft, and expressed himself willing to
meet the Committee on an earlier day, and con-
eluded by reading a resoltuion to,bp submitted to tho
,COmmittee, recommending frugality and economy
.in all the branches of the public expenditure.
Atter a few further remarks &can Lord Henry
Petty, which. were • answered by the ,Chancellor of
the Exchequer, the House agreed to take the Report
of the Cotninittee into consideration on Friday next,
when the Resolution of, the Chancellor of she Et-
chequer we, ordered to be laid before them.

pendent on the will of in, but from the necessmy
and well combined concurrence of time and place,
and it would now be the height of madness to incur
the risk of losing such advantAis, as 'it Was his
firm convidion
,were connected eith'• the Con-
stittation of the • Comet v.' And: for bat were
we about to risk them ? for objet; which, in
their loss were comparetively trifling indeed. He
should perfedly agree 'mitt) the Honourable Baru;
%net opposite in h is opinion of those Wise acts he had
adduced as these of several Parliatnents.. But those
Parliaments had never adopted (and indeed it wits
repugneut, to the.dustem of any Partiarnenteo adopt)
arty Legislative provision en mere statement only:.
They always waited until, they saw Where -any de7
fed was.:to be found in the pradice of the civil part
of. our Constitution. Where, he would ask, was
there the least sebjea for reprobation in the Con-
stitution of our present Parliament? 'He would not
attend to the speculative models which Gentlemen
the other side es weld propose, but he would refer ffre,
House to a comparison of our present state with that
dour ancestors, with resped to Parliamentary purity.
Tt was not for the House to calumniate its own ctia-
raoer. Gentlemen should not join in what they
knew to be the public expressions abroad, namely,
that the Members of that Hoilse legislated for their
own individual advantage. That Hoeg: at present
exhibited .a- model of purity, not to be' found in
other similar assemblies. He would den? that its
MenaherS had exempted thenisielees (ruin. those bur-,
thens %Ouch they had impost d on the public, or that
they had err gated any privilges winch they were
not disposed to siege in eirenere with the peoplie---
When any heseatem on the subject of taxes toek
place, the MeMbers of that Huth:. usually re-
verted 10 those who were so nearly connetted with
them, their constituents. The moderation
of, enl-
bers wieed be hest evinced by refleding that S'er-
teautß..st's 13ilf,- three sessions ago, was agreed to
,my thseussion. Such circumstances as these
were eoitiedeeible virtu' s, when compared with
• the ads of other bodies. In former limes there
not e:::i4t so flinch anxious care and interest
tor the niitioual prosperity 'as it w4s clear there did
at present. About thirty years ago, on an'occasion
when 11 grant was resolved to be made to.,his
' M tjesty to a considerable amount, yet' such 'was
the condua of Members as even to resist the pro-
position for laying before the House the fleets-
sal Papers connected with that grate. He wishet)
that tmose Gentlemen who spoke uf mismanageineot
in our present affairs woUld reflect upon the treat
extent of our public expenditure, and estime:inif
upon the effeas of human falliteilitY, compare the
mismanagement in such expenditure to that of for-
flier times. As a Right Hon. Friend of his on a for-
mer occasion had very correctly expressed it, more
econoiniu deficiency may be found in the condud ,of
a private household than in the public expenditure
of the finance by the preseut Government. Gen-.,
tiemen should take into cousidereiion the fraud;
which in every department were liable to be practi,wd,
and which it would defeat human ingenuity to prevent?.
A great public establishment, the Bank of Eugland,
which had been proverbial for.its vigilance, yet 4 or 5
years since had one of the greatest frauds practised. on
it that could be Committed.' To those tunes which.
the Lion. Gentleman had designated as the eras of
'
purity and integrity, he would only refer the revol-
leetion of the House. What Corruptiou was out
thete tosses met with in a Marlborough and a Wal.
pole ? ) In the war of succession, what frauds tie era,
therel not
corrupt pt
practicesaeti practised'' b
were he
there Army
r, ,t tir
be t Cot lss
i c
r:ielst d
?
in the progress of the American War ? Arid to con:
tea more reeent'period, the war in the West ladies its
1793, weretberenotcileumstancesuf nesinamigement
and traud to be discovered there ? While the objects
were too remote to be reached by,the vision of the-Gos
ver,nment, such frauds may .be prattiect but when
we were engaged in cantinental operations, and when
thus Matters. were more immediately enbjetted to
Government coutroul, no transailions of a fieotilu•
lent nature could be traced. From this comparative
view of our present polity, tie Could nut incline to
risk the blessings, which under the present happy
copstitntinn of t ed,lthattucibelt
afore than lice statedu tithyt
Parliament,‘ve jo.), by its co
in a late *transaction, had disgraCed itself. It May be
the etfeet 61 his perveise understanding that he could
Let any to-
not
cnatr be liPrelirid the eta:+stet it) that way:
egeasked his opinion cif titer late investigation
into the condutt at his Royal Highness the 'Nike of
York, and what would be the inference to be Oresim
from the opinion which he-Would deliVer ? Why it
would be that in his Consideration, and that of every
one else, the influence of the popular branch in. the
legislature was. considerable. Was it a thing. of in-
considerable import, that the Hulett! .the Sul ereign,
who lot sixteen years had with prUdence and skill
directed the affairs of the Army, should, on the
testimony of an individual, obscure and unknown to
the Hoose, be coMpsited by the result of that -in-
vestigation to resign his eotrituand. The Hon.
Gentleman said he would venture on another ex-
pression,, perhaps equally atiurd in the 'eyes bf
Gontkinen uo the other side,' and say, that this re-
signatioti of that illustrieua Personage wit, attended'
with a better result than if the House had adopted
the vote which ise that ocutsion had been piopi)sed.
Mr. LeTerrazoom; to order, remarked that the
Hon. Geritleman was 'wandering too far into general
statenient. •
Mr. J. Jou NSTON, in continuation, said he thought
hiimself 'pertectly justified in sheaving, by propertllteans,
theaos, and such instances as he could adduce, tiwt
there was no ground for such a proceeding as tiee
present. He could not, he said, be possessed of
so much prudery, as to deny that practices exist-
ed which were contrary to the theory of our Con-:
siitutiop. But we were not be direded ite our
examination by the -theory, -we should pri.iced tly
the experience •we had. Honottrable Gentlemen had
stated it to be their object to restore pritnilLse
purity. In this he could join issue with them ; but
be would beg to tisk., where did that primitive pipity
etsieits ? '
prey
their
eortit
liatitri
recur,uwa
ills theetsu,:old) oilinaetv l)4d,
carne
e failed wizen
to compare the preaent with the tittles of the Stearts
And the Tudors ; times when Nriiatneot ,bees )e
the legal instrument of oppression. In the time of
one of the Stuarts, a large portion of the Members
of that House were attually in tide

the Sovireign_ himself received a bribe of 10,00 oh
the President of, the Oti‘y Council 50001. and the
man who then filled that. Chair with disgrace,(the
Speaker's), which .vu s now filled withteicit honuer
and ability, received one-thousand p•Ainds as hit
share. At a SucZei.i..ling .period it emuld be •found
that. Stanhope -ad Waleele both confessed face to
(dee before Parlimrhit'. the Corrupt
`the
of .wiiich they 11.3,1 Lien (•.oilty. In the time, a
the South Sea Scheme, ni ety Members were ex"
tidied for their particivattni in the corrupt pracl
tice.s,of the-da;. And to speak with more point 01
the subject, it si mild he that Sir R. Walpole
bad, by a silt grout ot. that laud, ,which, oil a late
occasteau produced such discitS.iion, dimr.:,rnheted a
public hospital, without any applicakion cri the mat-
- ter, but the txercilw of his owl)
,The Jale dis-
posal of that land he. (Air. Johuson) WA3 pOt (lii*
pOSect tp tavoor,•- It was rir,t, "fact till 111.1 Pelham
Administration that a Minister was f 1d devoid
of
corruption. He w•ohid refer the notice, of Gentle-
men to Mr. Burke's account of.,the ReLkingttairt-:.
"Administration.. 11. i another pet led, whets Sir J.,
bird appfitd f,.r .8 copy of the perision
Ministers complied: only so lei With- the demand
to4nett to offices .paid by the EKebequer tint.! that
was the effeet'of Minist'etial influence. We had, if •1
we duly estimated die complrisoo, to congrat9l.he
.eurselveo on the existing purity of Pathetneot lathe
present da.. The aeares: 1. rootS of purity
in eleetioo
were It) be found its entis.tderitig that-the Com mittees
apeei,tited toihveitigatepetitiuns thrreul!, the yaro
1.796 andl7o, inet with no Cafe under
siderition where bribery could he provett. lu
Out of 46 petitions, only twticascs of b;:hery "'
discovered. And w
.yet the. House as now piocetdiut
on this subject without an apparent necesilt." 'll4
tits
Hon.Gentlentan (11dr. eurwei i) bud of
preponderance tieing in favour of-the muniediuterest
to the prejudice of the landed one. These werd not
new complaints, they, existed in the time of ,I(ing
Williarte, which the Hon.. Gentlemen uppoiite con'
r=ider as the best and purist of times. The (Hutt. ,
Gentleman stated that a great change had taker'
place in the sentiments of. the people since 1784.
That was not a,eltange injurious to the lib they of
the people, but the triumph of the people over ill&
protan:itiou of the [louse itself. House had
been then ading against the Ix ishes slid leoliogs of
the people. It was-a favourite principh: With sutuu
Gentlemen to adept, namely, the necesshy of party'
'That such a thing us,Parte vas nece.s•siry to the Con-
stitution he could not See. He diseharged
duty to his country who 'wes .uninfluented by atif
. parry, and, suKh a person should he point out
in the Honourable Member for Yorkshire (V.r.,
Wilherforce).. Upon' the'whole; Parliataent.ot
sent, if.. Compared with antecedent otter, W"5 01:103:y
in a Progressive . stage of
nouroble Member chegie,red the Gellocoleti wb..)
entered- that Holt:'under 'ale of
monied- inierem, • as: persons who. 'wer.e the 'mast,
• importunate claimant; on the 'Pri!at.iiry, PI tA 0;1!9
charged their -senatorial duties with as Inhellll6'..t'Ll7
;.
• and ritlitude as any other ciasS of mein ,If'1"17`1!
such men as P,i`eh:mitent was now coin ;,6i
'traitors to their duty werelo the found, they
adieu to all hopes of the pub;i6 safety. •'
Mr. :NI ON ii), the 4i di,),prt; ;neat I
after .i.ginio.6l).,cry:qiurs4.opiti Lord .I.4toti..at
'6'the day, the'llet.i4te :‘•a,,:iitryittibett till Ther3d,ty,
neNt...7-A,:jeurtied at "I'tt.ive
•

i t~

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