The Sun.
London, England, 1849-06-30 00:00:00

ble for any person to acquire a legal title to any land
which he might purchase there. There had been strong
accusations brought against the Hudson's Bay Company
both in print and in speeches, which professed to be re-
ports of what had taken place elsewhere. Those accu-
sations charged the Hudson's Bay Company with pro-
ceedings of great violence and irregularity, and of down-
right
illegality. Every circumstance contained in those
accusations he could deny from his own knowledge, both
on account of himself and of the company.
Lord BROUGHAM said that as reference had been
made in the debate to an opinion of his, he felt bound to
address a few words to the House.
Lord CAMPBELL—There is no reference to it in
the Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM said there were many things in a
debate which were not to be found in a Bill.—(A laugh.)
The validity of the charter had been very fully consi-
dered before the opinion to which allusion had been
made had been given. That opinion was given by Sir
Arthur Pigott, Mr. Sergeant Spankie, and himself, after
great consideration ; but they had what was better than
any opinion—they had the Act of Parliament, the 2d
of William and Mary, which said in the preamble that
the charter was to go on only for seven years. He had
a great respect for the opinion of Sir S. Romilly and Mr.
John Bell, but he must say that if he was to have an
opinion upon a point which was not one of equity, not
one of Chancery practice (and both Sir Samuel R
and Mr. Bell were Chancery barristers), but one of mere
common law practice, he would not take the opinion of
Sir Samuel Romilly and Mr. Bell against that of Sir
Arthur Pigott and Mr. Sergeant Spankie, and ho would
say turther, with respect to the opinions of all lawyers,
whether of Chancery or the Queen's Bench or the Com-
mon Pleas, including his Noble and Learned Friend op-
posite (Lord Campbell), if they said the charter was
legal he would not care a rush fur their opinions, because
he found by the Act of Parliament that that opinion
could not be right.—(Hear, hear.) It was monstrous to
say that a charter from the Crown could authorise a
company to subject persons to pains and penalties, to
seize upon their goods and ships, and to seize all inter-
lopers upon the sod. He would not believe that if it
was Stated by all the lawyers and all the coarts in Eng-
land; but he did not believe that Sir Samuel Romilly or
Mr. Bell had ever said any such thing—they might have
said that some parts of the charter were legal, but he
was sure they never said the whole was so.—(Hear.)
The Earl of ABERDEEN—I am not at all disposed
to find fault with the arrangement made by the Noble
Earl for the settlement and colonization of Vancouver's
Island. The great object of that arrangement is the
satisfactory colonization of the island.—(Hear, hear.)
Viy persuasion is that, except by some such mode as
that adopted by the Noble Earl, that colonization would
never have taken place.—(" Hear, hear," from Earl
Grey.) I believe the Hudson's Bay Curapan/, under
the restrictions imposed upon them by the Noble Earl,
and under the conditions on which they are to occupy
the island, will be able to effect that colonization, and
that the public will have that interest in the settlement
of the island which it is desirable to secure. The Hud-
son's Bay Company, having so vast an extent of terri-
tory, had fur some time past made it a great object to
hold possession of cultivated lands; and farms were
established in that district which has since beau ceded
to the United States. They are no longer in posses-
sion of that territory ; and if Vancouver's Island
afforded them cultivated grounds, which, under the
circumstances, were much more valuable than
hunting grounds—(" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey)
they would have the means of facilitating the
colonization desired. I always considered this posses-
sion as one of very great importance—(Hear, hear)—
and one which it was for the interest of the Government
and the country to manage in the best manner possible.
Indeed, I have perhaps more reason to have its impor-
tance impressed on my mind than most of your Lord-
ships, because in the whole period of my official life it is
the only subject which ever gave me a moment's uneasi-
ness with respect to its possible effect on the peace of the
country. The question between the United States and
this country lay within very narrow limits; it was, whe-
ther the boundary of the 49th degree of latitude should
stop at the continent or be carried through Vancouver's
Island to the ocean. Had it been carried beyond the
continent, it would have deprived us of the southern
part of Vancouver's bland, and we should have lost the
ports which will there afford facilities for commerce. I
mention this to show that it was a subject the import•
ance of which formerly occupied my thoughts very
much; and I am happy to have the opportunity now of
bearing my testimony that the conditions under which
the arrangement with the Hudson's Bay Company has
been made will, as I believe, give full effect to the ad-
vantageous possession of Vancouver's Island.
Lor WHARNCLIFFE, while he fully acknow-
ledged what the Noble Earl had done to secure the
territory of Vancouver's Island to the British empire,
must be allowed to express his dissent from the conclu-
sion at which the Government had arrived with reference
to the arrangement with the Hudson's Bay Company.
He would not indeed go the length which others had
shown themselves willing to go in regarding as proved
the complaints made against that company, and in im-
puting to them gross and extensive misconduct. But
the question now at issue was simply whether the Noble
Ewe, iu providing for the colonization of Vancouver's
Island, hod taken the proper course, and whether he had
promoted the interest of this country in handing over
the territory of that island to the Hudson's Bay Company
—that company being endowed with very doubtful
powers under their charter, and being engaged in pursuits
and associated fur objects which were foreign to the pur-
poses of colonization. The Noble Lord then referred to
the correspondence which had passed between Sir J.Petly,
Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, and her Majesty's
Government, ShOveluig, tkva original sysplicatid.ion, ear
to have the company confirms d in the possession of cer-
• tain lands at the southern point of Vancouver's Island,
, where they had formed a settlement. When the position
of the Hudson's Bay Company, independently of their
peculiar pursuit;, was kept in view, the question stili re-
mained whether they were fit persons to carry out that
colonization. "I hey were now suddenly called upon,
without any special reason for presuming fitness on their
part, no reason being traceable in the papers, to engage
in other than their ordinary operations and devote their
attention to a fertile district. A country which was va-
luable on amount of its minerals was to be handed over
to a fur-trading company. That company had further
shown itself in no way qualified to carry out the culti-
vation or colonization of Vancouver's Island. The real
motive which had induced the Hudson's Bey Company
to embark in this undertaking was most probably one
which was by no means unnatural on their part, though
the public interest was not involved in it,—namely. the
d sire to complete and consolidate that great monopoly
which they had so long held.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH was understood to state
that he could not concur with those who argued on the
possibility of coloniz ng on the north-western coast of
America. That district was described as barren and in-
capable of cultivation, as a dreary and miserable waste.
It was only necessary to read the accounts which had
appeared of the difficulties encountered by the servants
of the Hudson's Bsy Company, of the straits to which
they were often reduced, and the starvation to which they
were often exposed, of the dependence in which they
were placed on supplies from the south, whence they had
to obtain buffaloes for food, as well as vegetables and
grain—it was only necessary to bear in mind these cir-
cumstances to be satisfied that the sterility of the country
was hopeless, and that no improvement of climate could
be anticipated which would facilitate cultivation. The
colonization, so far as it went, which had been carried
out under the auspices of the Hudson's Bay Company,
had been a successful colonization; and the spirit
in which they were disposed to act appeared
from the course they had taken with reference
to the appointment of a bishop to be stationed at the
Red River settlement, whose diocese extended over Ru-
pert's Land. With respect to Vancouver's Island, it
appeared to him that if a colony was to be established
there, the Hudson's Bay Company, having a regular
system established in a country which was so difficult of
access, were likely to ineuce persons to settle more
readily through their instrumentality than by any other
means. It showed that they had some turn for the cul-
tivation of the land, that they had, as he understood,
very considerable and flourishing farms on the Columbia
River, within the territory which had been ceded to the
Matted States. He had risen because it appeared to be
supposed that they could deal with those parts of British
America to which allusion had been made as they could
with Australia, and because it seemed as if it were in -
ferred, from those d'stricts lying to the west and on the
sea coast, that the climate must therefore be warm and
genial, and the soil fertile, whereas it was notorieus that
the climate and soil were of a character directly the
reverse.
Earl GREY replied—lt was extremely satisfactory to
him that the Noble Earl, to whom the country was so
much indebted for the pacific possession of Vancouver's
Island, approved of the arrangement which had been
adopted by her Majesty's Government. Although ex-
ception had been taken to that arrangement, no Noble
`Lord had been able to point out any other means what-
hear.' which thein object could be carried out.—(Hear,what-
hear.') "ea..pal objection of the Noble Lord on
the cross-benghpcowi redy. lifonteagle) was founded on a
Hudson's Bay Company
tajt,tie_r did not extend to
doubt as to the
under their charter. But tit
Vancouver's Island ; and the
Grey) had assumed that the company
erwa(sEtahrle
ordinary power of suing anpdoloitficbaelin
rgighsutsin
vernment had conferred no
pany, but had merely confirmed them in the possession
of Vancouver's Island. In the the case of South Aus-
tralia very extensive political powers were given; but in
the course of a few years it was found necessary to
repeal the Act which established that anomalous sys-
tem and conferred such monstrous powers. But in the
present instance no political pow+ rs were given ; the
administration would be carried on like that of other
British colonies. The only thing conferred on the Hud-
son's Bay Company was the property of the soil, in ac-
cordance with the precedents set in the case of Canada,
Australia, New Zealand, and other colonies. They were
compelled to sell the land and expend the money so ob-
tained, after a moderate deduction for necessary outlay
and risk, on the cultivation and improvement of the soil.
—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) said
it was absurd to offer land for 20s. an acre, when it could
be had far cheaper in the United States. But he believed
the Noble Lord was mistaken in his views as to the ab-
surdity of the contract, fur it would be found, in his
(Lord Grey's) opinion, much cheaper to pay 20s. an acre
where the purchase-money would be nearly all applied to
the improvement of the land, than to pay nothing for
land where nothing was done for it.—(Hear, hear.) For
example, in West Australia, where land had been given
to the settlers fur nothing, the bargain had been ruin-
owe In South Australia, on the contrary, it had been
sold for 81. an acre, and the settlers had had to con-
gratulate themselves on their success.—(Hear, hear.)
In the same way the Hudson's Bay Company would find,
notwithstanding the competition from the United States,
not a numerous but still a fair supply of settlers, unless
the discovery of California and its produce should lead
thew awes itZ that direction, as the kT9blo Aord (L9r4