The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-20 00:00:00

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Naed in a tropical climate. In 1843, the mortality
Was only 2i per cent. ; in 1844, 2} per cent.; in 1845.3
Per cent.; in 1846, 2 per cent.; in 1847 (yellow fever),
Per cent. In the island of Barbadoes no higher eleva-
II:on than 1,000 feet could be reached, and it was the opi-
nion of medical men that that was not above the floating
"ace of the fever contagion. With respect to the
encampment of the men, of course, General Berkeley
Possessed the power of ordering such encampment, but
net until after receiving a report from the medical officer
rto the necessity of a measure of that kind. In men-
„Oiling the name of General Berkeley, he was bound to
"late that his attention to the men under his command
pas
unremitting. He visited them, not weekly, but
went from bed to bed in every ward, spoke to
foam, encouraged them, risked his life for their cora-
t• He was happy to state that the epidemic had now
Ina great degree passed away, and that, according to
oelast accounts, there remained only two cases in the
pital. He hoped the unfortunate occurrences which
had taken place would lead, at least, to this good re-
Init.---the establishment at Barbadoe3 of an efficient
sanitary barrack upon Gun Hill, to which the troops
eetild in future be removed on the first appearance
Of yellow fever. He wished now to say a few
words as to the general conduct of the army during
the past year. The House, after what it had done
for the army of late years. could not fail to take a lively
Interest in the moral conduct and general behaviour of
the troops. He had not been able to collect all the in-
ilormation he had wished to obtain on this subject; but
might state to the House the result of his inquiries
with reference to the troops stationed in Ireland during
11e months of June, July, August, and September last.
, During rhat time the greater portion of the army in Ire-
land was either under canvass, exposed to very bad
Weather, or huddled up in barracks, where very insuffi-
Zlent: accommodation could be provided for large num-
bers of men; and the troops were, therefore, exposed to
rvations which, if discontent had existed, would pro-
in
ably have led to its manifestation by acts of misconduct.
the month of June there was in Ireland 28,324 men,
and corporal punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,149; in
1.1137 the army consisted of 27,954 men, and corporal
Punishment was awarded to 1 in 3,106; in August there
were 30,996 men. and corporal punishment was awarded
to l in 3,099; and in September the army numbered
31,343 men. and corporal punishment was awarded to 1
In 2,403. During the whole year the punishments in the
army were only in the proportion of 1 in 1,090 men; and
within the same period the total number of courts-martial
held, including regimental as well as general courts, was
only 1,228. Ile thought this statement was sufficient to
show that the general good conduct of the army would
not only realise the hopes of that House, but would give
them and the country reason to be proud that they had a
body of men to whom they could so confidently look for
Protection.—(Hear, hear.) The total number of men
Placed in confinement during the year ending the 31st of
December, had been 4,043; and the average number in
Confinement had been 784 ; and the total expense of
their' maintenance had been 14,8011., which was more
than covered by the stoppage of their pay and beer-
money during their imprisonment. Then with regard to
ee conduct of the prisoners, the extent of serious offences
brought before the visitors might be judged of from
the tpunishments inflicted. He found that, for prison
2fiences, 21 prisoners hadtbeen placed in solitary con-
finement, 1 in irons, and corporal punishment had been
tricted in 13 aggravated cases. He thought these facts
showed that their endeavours to improve the mural con-
dition of the army had been successful, and should en-
courage them to persevere in the same course.—(Hear,
',ear.) With regard to the education of the men, six
trained schoolmasters were about to be sent from the
establishment originated by his Right Hon. Friend op-
posite to take charge of garrison schocls in England ;
and he hoped that many years would not elapse before
they would establish one uniform system of school train-
ing for the whole army. The advantage of this arrange-
ment would be that such soldiers as chose to receive
Instruction, and all the children of soldiers, would find,
,nn removing to new quarters, that the change in the
locality of the school was not accompanied by any
change in the system of education pursued. He wished,
before he sat down, to say a few words in refutation
of charges which had been brought against the army in
R,eneral by a body of individuals who had constituted
teemselves a Financial Reform Committee in Liverpool.
'(lleat-, hear.) He would not have noticed any of these
Charges if they had been founded in fact or in truth.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) He did not object, and he was
lure no persons in the army would object to the closest
actottiny into the whole expenditure of that service; but
With such a scrutiny the officers of the army had no-
-4"log to do; it rested with the officials of the Government
and with the determination of the House. He would not
°bJG4 to any scrutiny into the expenditure of the army
Conducted in a fair and proper manner; but, as the state-
ments put forth by the Financial Committee of Liver-
Pool were neither founded in fairness nor in justice—
Cheers)—and as they would tend not only to do infinite
Injury to the army, but to the very parties who were
Putting forth those statements, he thought it necessary
to say a few words on the subject. The committee to
Ivhicla he alluded had attacked the system of clothing
the army ; but surely they might have attacked that
system without imputing motives—(Hear)--to the colo-
nels whose duty it was to provide the clothing for their
men, not by any arrangement of their own, but under a
73',.atein which had existed for upwards of 140 years.—
Ilear, hear.) The committee might certainly have
quired into this matter before insisting that tho co-
rnels and quarter-masters of regiments laid their heads
'Nether to change the pattern of the articles with which
the soldier was compelled to provide himself, in order
that their own profits might be enhanced.—(Herr, hear.)
14e system of clothing the army had been the subject of
several inquiries, and it the parties by whom those in-
quiries had been conducted had not been able to recom-
mend a better plan than that now pursued, he did not
think it very liktly that the Liverpool Committee would
so. In 1783 the clothing s) stem was ingaired into
by the Commissioners of -Public Accounts, who stated
that they could not reco any change either in
Point of economy, ur of satisfaction to the soldier. In
1798 the subject was inquired into by the Finance Cons-
taittee, and in 1808 by a military commission, Kith the
same result. In 1833 a Committee of that House, many
of sehene he would venture to say were as prejudiced as
any members of the Liverpool Financial Committee,
went into the consideration of tke subject, and they
agreed unanimously to a report containing these pas-

'ages:—
"It further appears that the wholesome cautions and
checks by which the supply of clothing by the colonels
uas been accompanied have invariably secured the
Comfort and satisfaction of the soldier, and the complete
efficiency of this branch of the public service. The Com.
ruittee are not, therefore, prepared to suggest any
change in this long-established system, which, although
at first it may appear anomalous, and to involve the ob-
iectionable principle of giving profit to the colonels out
of moneys ostensibly voted for another purpose, secures
the responsibility of those officers for the just and punc-
tual distribution of the clothing to the different regi-
t'acnts, dispersed as they are throughout various and die-
taut colonies, and which at the same time protects the
public from the losses to which they would be exposed
y the accumulation of stores of this description supplied
Under the management of public boards from extensive
establishments, superannuation allowances to those who
conduct them, and from that multiplicity of accounts
Which a transfer of the charge of this supply from those
la whom it is now vested into any other hands must
inevitably produce."
Re thought, then, that it was somewhat hard to charge I
upon the "clothing colonels," as they were most invi-
diously called, the responsibility of a system which they
had not themselves created—which had undergone no
less than four scrutinies, and for which no substitute
had been proposed.—(Hear, hear.) But he was sorry
to observe that the Liverpool Committee did not confine
themselves to these insinuations against the colonels; he
had read their pamphlets with great care, and it seemed
to him that their chief object was to run down the officer
in the opinion of the soldier,—(Hear, hear.) The offi-
cers of the army were held up to odium, and it was said
the army was erected and maintained for the benefit of
the aristocracy. Indeed the whole tone of the pamphlet
Was, in his opinion, dangerous in the extreme, not only
to the constitution of the army, but to the very exist-
ence of good order in this country.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, if the soldier should, from any circumstance, lose
that confidence which he now justly reposed in his
commanding officer, and if he consequently lost his
regard for discipline, he (Mr. Fox Maule) had no hesi-
tation in saying that the army would at once be-
come an armed rabble.—(Hear, hear.) If this were
the case, who would be the first to suffer from such a
state of things? Not the officers of the army, not the
landed gentry, who lived on their estates in the country;
but the inhabitants of towns. Instead of having
or-
derly and well-behaved soldiers, who kept their hands
from picking and stealing, and who offered no violence
to their neighbours, walking through the streets, they
would have a disorderly rabble, thieving in one direc-
tion, and assaulting in another, and the peaceable inha-
bitants would rue the day when the Financial Reform
Committee of Liverpool, or any other Reform Commit-
tee, began to hold up the officers of the army to odium
and reproach.—(Hear.) lie did not make these obser-
vations from any objection to inquiry into the expendi-
ture,of the public money, but because he thought auy
inquiry on this subject should be carried on with due re-
gard to the feelings of the officers of the army, to the
discipline of their men, and to the safety of the public ;
and not in a manner which might tend to destroy that
respect for authority and discipline without which the
British army, instead of being a boast and protection,
Would be a disgrace to this country.—(Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN then read the first vote, for 103,254
Men to constitute the land forces of the United Kingdom.
Lord DRUMLANRIG said, he thought the House
Would agree with him that the mortality at Barbadoes
Was no light case. Out of 13 officers who accompanied
the 66th Regiment only two had escaped the fever, seven
had died, and four had been at the point of death. The
Mortality in the 72d Regiment was quite as bad, and still
continued. He was glad to hear that a new station was
to be erected for troops in Barbadoes. The present bar-
racks at St. Anne's were most defective in accommoda-
tion. The barracks were built in a square, so that there
could never be a free current of air; and they adjoined a
graveyard, from which there was a most offensive smell.
110 officer had more than one room, and from 80 to 90
Men were crammed together in one apartment. He hoped
that Assistant-Surgeon Simpson's letter to Dr. Davy,
the medical superintendent, would be produced, because
he was informed that at least 40 men died before orders
Were given to encamp the regiment. The expenses in-
curred by the officers had arisen from their leaving the
barracks when the fever broke out, and hiring houses at
the cost of 7/. or Si. a month.
Mr. HUME was gratified to find that gradual pro-
gress was being made in ameliorating the condition of
our soldiers. He had frequently said, when they had
heard in that House of the brutal treatment to which
soldiers were subjected,—of one man receiving 1,000
lashes or more, that until they treated men better they
Must not expect better conduct; and now that corporal
PlttlibllMent was annst entirely ab9li§hod, they found

the conduct of soldiers was greatly improved.—(Hear,
hear.) He hoped the Secretary at War would persevere
in his endeavours to promote the comfort of the troops;
and he (Mr. Hume) would recommend that provision
should be made in connexion with all barracks for
enabling the men to employ their spare time in amuse-
ments or healthful exercise, He hoped his Right Hon.
Friend would persevere in providing room and means in
all barracks to enable the men to improve themselves; for
he understood from officers that, when such means ex-
isted, there was always a certain number of men in
every company taking advantage of them, and gradu-
ally inducing others, by their example, to abandon
habits of idleness. He should not grudge the trifling
expense necessary for this object, being convinced that
the greater efficiency of the men would more than com-
pensate any sure of money expended in promoting their
health and morals.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
Liverpool Association, be thought his Right Hon. Friend
might have omitted his allusions to that body. Ile (Mr.
Hume) was Rot a member of that association only be-
cause he resided at a distance, and had laid down a rule
to confine himself within what he called his own legiti-
mate limits.—(Laughter.) Ho thought the Liverpool
Association had done good service in opening the eyes of
the country to abuses in regard to the national establish-
ments. He had often heard it remarked that that man
was a benefactor to his country who made two blades of
grass grow where only one grew before ; and so he
thought he was a national benefactor who could make in
future 5/. go as far as 101. did at present.—(Hear, and
laughter.) The charge against the Liverpool Associa-
tion was that they had accused the colonels of regiments
of being tailors.
Mr. F. MAULE.—The charge against the Liverpool
Association is that they accused the colonels of com-
bining with the quarter-masters for the purpose of
cheating the soldiers.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME admitted that that was a great error, and
most unjust accusation.—(Hear.) This he knew from
the investigation before the Committee of 1833, for
which he moved; but at the same time ho must
observe that at that period the artillery were clothed
better than the line (though the clothing of the latter
had improved since the sitting of that CommitteeA and
no colonel was connected with the clothing of the artil-
lery in the same way as in the line. While willing to
accord to colonels of the line all that their rank and
station entitled them to, he still retained his opinion,
that connecting the colonels with the clothing of the
men was placing the former in an anomalous situation,
and that it would be better net to afford even a pretence
for charges such as the Right Honourable Gentleman
had alluded to.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it, therefore,
hard that a severe charge should have been made against
the Liverpool Assocation for an error into which they
might have been led in consequence of the anoma-
lous position in which the colonels were placed.
The Liverpool Association would do no evil if they con-
fined themselves to the truth—(Hear, hear)—and to
official documents, as they were now doing. They
would then be conferring on the country good service,
and he would not quarrel with them for one or two ac-
cidental errors. With regard to the health of the army,
he recollected that when, many years ago, he proposed
that statistics on the ;subject should be commutii-
cated to Parliament, he was laughed at by the greater
part of the military men in the House; but now he trusted
that those statistics to which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had referred, and to the preparation of which Colonel
Tulloch had devoted his talents, would be laid before
the House ; for he was certain that they would be
found extremely useful. With regard to the present
estimates, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had
laid them before the House in a very clear and distinct
manner, and had candidly stated the reasons why the
proposed large military establishment was to be
maintained. One of these reasons consisted in
the aspect of affairs abroad.—(Hear.) Now, though
he (Mr. Hume) was anxious to see our troops effec-
tive and our military establishment adequate, he was
against maintaining an excessive establishment, which
drained the resources of the country, and was only re-
quired for the purpose of meddling with the affairs of
other nations. Had this country abstained from inter-
ference in the affairs of other nations, the people would
have been saved from an addition of debt amounting to
between 600,000,000/., and 700,000,0001.; and, conse-
quently, no declaration gave greater satisfaction than
that of Lord Grey, fin 1830, that his Government would
act on the principle of non-intervention. He could not
understand why we should put ourselves to so great an
expense by maintaining an exorbitant military establish-
ment, for the purpose of enabling us to interfere abroad,
and preventing the people there settling their own affairs
as they pleased.—(Hear, hear.) Fur this reason he
objected to the number of men now proposed to be
voted. If it were said that the proposed amount
must be kept up to enable us to provide for our
colonies, he would ask where was the country which
would attempt to interfere with any of our colonies?
England must be low and weak indeed before any
nation would dare to do so; and, consequently,
he did not see that the troops of this country were now
wanted in the colonies. Canada had now a responsible
Governme: t, and yet in British North Atnei ica no less
than 6,000 or 8,000 troops were maintained, together
with accompanying artillery, sappers, miners, and corn •
rnissariat, for a certain number of the line not only re
quired an expenditure on their own account, but always
induced a great additional expense for other companies
attached to them In these colonies wht should not the
militia be sufficient for the preservation of tranquillity ?
Or, if that body were not sufficient for the purpose, let
the colonies maintain a police at their own expense.
Were not Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales
capable of governing themselves, if we would only
,dlow them, and luck the doors of the Colonial-office ?
The Right Honourable Gentleman might allude to
Ceylon, but what lid to the war ? The misconduct of
the Government ; and if we would send out men
utterly incapable, and assist them with the mischievous
meddling of the Colonial-office, could we wonder that
war was the result ? Take the Cape of Good Hope
and New Zealand ; now that matters were settled,
why should the people of England, borne down as they
were by various circumstances and changes, be required
to maintain such large military establishments? It Par-
liament would take from Ministers their power of ship-
ping off thousands of our countrymen to support good or
had government in the colonies, as might happen, it
A ould be doing a great kindness to the Ministry, placing
them in a situation to avoid the complaints at present
made.—(Hear, and a laugh.) 'With regard to the re-
serve, the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) had
made too much of that. But to come to the subject of
the force at home; was it not a matter of serious consi-
deration that the House should be told by the Govern-
ment that it was necessary to maintain 20,000 men more
than we had in 1836 at home, for fear of the people?
He (Mr. Hume) had always considered England a
country governed by civilians, and proud of the boast of
Elizabeth, when asked where were her guards. "Look
around; every subject I have is my guard." Now
we were changing our tone, and keeping 50,000
soldiers in these islands. No class was more
interested in maintaining the public peace than the
working man, for he must he the first and greatest
sufferer in case of disturbance; and if so large a force
was required to preserve pence at home, it was high time
to ascertain what were the causes of discontent that ren-
dered it necessary.—(Hear.) From the time of the
Duke of ,York becoming Commander-in-Chief this
country lost much of its civil character; we had had
too many soldiers ; and the magistrates were too fond
of sending for troops in case of any disturbance, instead
of trusting to the civil power. Some magistrates, if a
cat disturbed a heap of straw, were for sending for a
troop of soldiers.—(Laughter.) The affair at Leeds
had been mentioned; and so this large military force
was to be kept up from fear of men asking for their
rights!—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F.
Maule), indeed, had no power to refuse these requests
for military aid—it rested with the Home-office; but let
him tell the Home Secretary, when he came in, or any
Other of the Ministers—none of them were in the House
—that it would be much better to yield to [the reason-
able wishes of the mass of the people than to maintain
a force to keep them quiet—to make them contented,
and then the posse comitatus would suffice to preserve the
peace.—(Hear, hear.) Why, last year we had a force of
above 185,000 armed men, and, with the police, upwards
of 200,000. Surely we were losing our senses, fright-
ened at our own shadows, and bearing down ourselves
with the load of military expense. Let it not be said
that be (Mr. Hume) was proposing too large a reduction;
the average number of men voted for the army in the
three years 1833 to 1836 was 86,547, and the force was
found sufficient to maintain peace and quietness at home
and abroad. He thought he had made out a strong
ca,e. Let lion. Gentlemen opposite support him, and
he would make a reduction that would include malt-tax,
hop-duty, bricks, soap, window, paper duty, some
9,250,0001.; in fact, we might save 11,000,000/. with
great ease, and be in perfect security. The Hon. Gen-
tleman concluded by moving that the number of men
should be reduced to 89,000.
The question having been put,
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND thought that as none of her
Majesty's Ministers were present to give their opinions
to the House—and no doubt they were discussing these
matters over a cool bottle—(A laugh)—such bumble
Members as himself might as well have a little conversa-
tion on the subject of the estimates. The Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Montrose said he thought there
ought to be a great reduction is our military establish-
ments, and he complained that there was much extrava-
gance shown in all these matters. Now undoubtedly
there was a great expenditure under this head ; but he
thought it was evident that the more we increased in
trade, in manufactures, and population, the more we
must increase in a force of some kiud, and he did not
much care whether that force appeared in blue coats or
in red.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the country boobies
(as the country gentlemen might perhaps be called on
the other side) who caused this increase, but
it was the mayors of enlightened town consti-
tuencies in the manufacturing districts who called
meetings with one hand, and with the other applied
for military aid to keep them in order—(A laugh)—for
just in proportion as these merchants and manufacturers
were cowards the one minute they were bullies the other.
—(A laugh.) They were the people who led us into
war in China and South America, as the House had
heard the other night, and now they turned tail upon
her Majesty's Government, and charged it with having
incurred the expense.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now
he thought that if they entered into war they should
not come out of it till they had conquered.—(Hear.)
Either they should not begin to fight at all, or they
should fight if it was necessary till they were dead.—
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) They were bound to stand
upon the ground they had taken up till they could get
well out of it, and then they were not to grudge the ex-
penses incurred by the Government.—(Hear.) Now, as
regarded the artillery, it had been complained of that
we had a much greater outlay for artillerymen than we
had during the war. Unquestionably it was so ; but
there was not a man, even the lowest judge in military
matters, who did not confess that the arm in which we
were most inferior during the war was the artillery.—
(Ilear, bear.) And thou it must bo remembered that it

was impossible to find
.this arm in time of war, but by
long previous service. But they were told that these
things were only said on the word of military men; that
those military men were not proper judges how to de-
fend the country, and that civilians were the only good
judges on such a imetter. Now, this fallacy lay at, the
bottom of the whole question, and it was therefore well
to examine it a little. It appeared to him that it was a
burlesque of the old saying, '• Who drives fat oxen
should himself be fat."—(A laugh.) In other words,
" Who pays a general must himself be a general."—(A
laugh.) It was gravely maintained by the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for the West Riding
that it was a question for the tax-payers, and
not the military, to decide what was the pro-
portion of men necessary for the defence of
the country.—(Hear.) Why, if Gentlemen opposite
did not see the absurdity of such an argument, he hoped
the country would. Ho would tell them that they were
not competent judges of this matter. What would they
think if a party of general officers were to go to Man-
chester to instruct them how to make cotton twist?—
(" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) Would they not answer
that they were a set of meddling fools? On the same
principle, he held that Gentlemen in that House were
going beyond their borders, that they were presuming
too far when they entered upon a matter of which they
were essentially, and necessarily-, and naturally not
judges.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
ber for the West Riding, however, said, "You only are
the judges—take care, therefore, how you perform your
duty; you are sent here to determine upon all these,eco-
nomical questions." Now they might sit in that House
as judges, but then there were among them certain gen-
tlemen who had been called to the particular business of
doing duty in the service of the Crown. These Gentle-
man were made acquainted with the affairs of all the va-
ried Governments of Europe, and were capable of
knowing their objects and intentions. Looking,
then, at the general state of Europe, they might
say that they required a certain number of
soldiers to carry on the business of their Government;
but Hon. Gentlemen opposite, having no means of know-
ing these matters, exclaimed, " Oh, the Government is
wrong; they do not know what is required for the in•
terests of the country; we alone know what number of ;
men are required."—(Hear, hear.) Now he held that,
as judges of the case before them, they had nothing to
do but to decide according to the opinion of her Majesty's
Government, who only could know what the circum-
stances of the country required.—(Hear, hear.) It ap-
peared to him that on such a question they were all
equally stupid—(A langh)—and that they ought to put
confidence in those persons who must, of necessity, be
better informed that the Gentlemen seated on the other
side.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had spoken
of the evidence given by the late First Lord of the Ad-
miralty before the Committee as embracing " a vague
generality," because he said the reasons for preferring a
certain number of sailors and soldiers were to be con-
sidered, not with reference to the year 1835, but to the
general state of Europe. Now, he looked upon that not
as a " vague generality," but as common sense; and he
must say, that of all persons in the world, the Man-
chester gentlemen had given proof of their utter
incompetence to give reasons drawn from the general
state of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that
a more upright man or one who would give more satis-
factory testimony regarding what he saw or heard did not
exist than the Hon. Member for the West Riding; but
they must recollect also that there was not a man in the
country who stood convicted of being so utterly unable
to give an accurate opinion of the state of Europe as the
Hon. Gentleman was.—(A laugh.) No man had been
so unfortunate in his prophecies—none had ever been
so completely refuted by the events.—(Hear, hear.) He
spoke of our having nearest us peaceable and friendly
neighbours;—why, he might go to the Zoological-gar-
dens, and, because he saw the tigers lying quietly in
their lairs, he might speak of them as peaceable and
harmless animals; and perhaps he might amuse himself
with the antics of the monkeys. But let them be set
loose, and he would find what altered creatures both
tigers and monkeys would become.—(A. laugh.) In
France the whole nation to a man had been rendered
able to express their opinions, and they had just run
mad after the ghost of a grey greatcoat and a very little
hat.—(A laugh.) They had just given to the world the
information that the time when they were happiest was
not a time of free trade, but when they were under the
Berlin and Milan decrees; that the time they were look-
ing back to with the greatest delight was when they
were under an absolute Emperor, and that the thing they
were aspiring to again was another thirty years of war
with England.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. GIBSON, in reference to what had fallen from
the Hon. Gentleman opposite, would admit that, if he
wanted to know how to deal with a regiment when it
was brought into the field, he would apply to a military
officer; and if he wanted to know how a ship was to be
kept away from a lee shore, or handled in battle, he
would apply to a professional man, but he would not
apply to a professional man on matters of general
policy, or as to what was necessary for the safety of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He declined altogether setting
up military and naval men as a sort of independent go-
vernment in the state.—(Hear, bear.) On the contrary'
he regarded them as public servants, and not as the
only persons to be consulted as to the number of men
the establishments of the country required. There were
always complaints of the great difficulty which Govern
meat telt in resisting the demande of the army, &c., for
grants, and if it were not for what were called the gen-
tlemen of the Manchester school, those appeals would
become altogether irresistible. He would support the
motion of the lion. Member for Montrose, tw.inly be-
cause no reason had been shown for keeping so large a
force in our co!onios. As to the Committee appointed
to inquire into the condition of the services, he cou!d
not help expressing a wish that they bad been em-
powered to inquire into the amount of the forces re-
quiri,d, se that they might hive the whole question thus
brought before them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. O'CONNELL would promise the Government
that if they brought in measures to meet the just de-
mands of Ireland, they would be able to dispense with
three-fourtl4s of the military now in that country.
Mr. W. P. WOOD, after the lecture read to the House
by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Drummond) did not
rise to speak on this subject without some apprehensions.
his principal reason for doing so, however, was to die
charge a duty to his constituents, from 1,250 of whom
he presented a petition on this subject last session. That
petition was signed, among others, by Mr. Caldwell, who
had had great experience in the recruiting service; and
it suggested to the House to employ the militia staff for
the purpose of recruiting the army, to form the recruits
into special corps similar to those of the pensioners, to
be drafted off into the different regiments when ne-
cessary, and that in the meantime they might be em-
ployed doing the same duty as pensioners. Such
was the opinion expressed in that petition, and he
understood the plan had been approved of by
experienced officers. It always appeared to him
that there were no debates in that House so
unsatisfactory as the debates on the estimates.
They were generally of a stereotyped character.—(Hear.)
A certain number of gentlemen got up and said they sup-
ported the Government because it had the responsibility
of administering the affairs of the country. On the other
hand, in the same stereotyped form the Government
came forward and said none of the responsibility was to be
thrown upon them; that every vote was agreed to by the
House; and that they were nut to be held answerable for
it. Now, both these propositions could not be correct; and
hence the unsatisfactory character of these debates. As
to professional men being the only judges, he would ad-
mit that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Drummond) would
be correct if the question was as to how troops were to
be occupied in the field. They were called upon to vote
27,000 men more than in 1835, 1836, and 1837; in addi-
tion to which there was a force of 15,000 pensioners,
who did not exist in those years, besides a large increase
of police in this country and the constabulary of Ireland.
These were matters upon which the House might fairly
be deemed competent to form an opinion. It was obvious
too, that whenever the cause of increase of force had
ceased to exist they never heard of tiny reduction.
This was a fact which naturally struck the most
common understanding. Another form which these
stereotyped debates assumed was this:—They were
told they were now at peace with all the world; but they
must remember the only way to preserve that peace was
to be well armed. Of course they ought to be effi-
ciently armed; but why, in order to be so, was it ne-
cessary to have 27,000 men more now than at any former
period? And were there not other measures which
might make them more likely to be at peace besides
being prepared for war? The sinews of war were not
men only, but money also. Now last year there was a
deficiency of something like 2,000,0001., and this year
we were told that we should barely meet our expenses.
Were we not, then, by maintaining this large military
establishment, incurring another, that of being uaable
from our financial resources to meet the exigency of a
war? Let them remember the breaking down of the
efforts of the Minister to increase the income-tax.
From the earliest records it would be found that every
revolution had arisen from the people being overbur-
dened by taxation. There had been one novelty
introduced into this debate—it had been said that
although the Government had been extravagant,
it had not been worse than many railway companies.—
(Laughter.) if they analyzed more strictly the conduct
of the railway directors, he believed it would be found
that they had been influenced by an insane apprehension
of foreign invasion, by competing companies—and in
order to resist them they had expended all their re.
sources. So we, from as ill-founded an apprehension of
foreign invasion, were about to waste all our resources.
But from what quarter was this invasion to be feared?
From France, and France only. He regretted to hear
the Hon. Member (Mr. Drummond) express his fear of
a French invasion; and equally did he regret to hear
him draw a contrast between what he called the Man-
chester school—meaning the manufacturing interest—
and the agricultural community. If there was any dan-
ger more to be feared than another in this country, it
was an attempt to divide the people into distinct and con-
flicting classes.—(Hear.) On a late occasion—and he felt
it most deeply—a bitter and most marked division was
made, as between class and class—which, if it were to suc-
ceed, would be most fatal to society, and resolve it into a
state of ruin and confusion. No country could prosper
with a landed, a commercial, and a manutheturing. popu-
lation not acting in unison one with another. An impor-
tant fact had been communicated to him by a French
gentleman lung resident in this country in connexion
with the French diplomatic department. He stated as
a proof of the indisposition of the French people to go
to war, that at the end of the seventeen years of Louis
Philippe's reign the price of a substitute for the con-
scription was double that which had to be paid at the be-
ginning of his reign. Unfortunately we had gone too
far in regarding France our natural enemy. Those who
lived nearest to us were, he conceived. naturally our
friends, neighbours, and allies. He belonged neither to
the Manchester school nor to the Liverpool Finance As-
sociation ; but certainly he did look forward to com-
merce as the means of promoting general peace through-
out Europe; though he did not regard any other inte-
rest inimical to peace ; and least of ell did he look upon