The Sun.
London, England, 1836-07-08 00:00:00

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ion to extend the time from three to six months. After
()me time then the Commissioners would appoint valuers,
who would make an apportionment for the payment accord-
ing to rules laid down in this Act. This was the first
application. of the compulsory principle ; but the Bill then
went on to frame regulations for the commutation of tithes,
when the parties could not agree as to the Whole amount to
be paid. The Bill then enacted, that after the Ist of Oc-
tober, 1837, if no steps were taken by the parishioners and
the titheowners to fix on a certain sum to be paid by the
former as a commutation, that the Commissioners should
come into the parish and ascertain the total value of the
tithes, and award the sum to be paid as a rent-charge in
lieu of them. The sum to be thus charged was to be cal-
culated in this way, and it was the most important and
most stringent part of the measure. The Commis-1
sioneal would meet and for.n an estimate in this
way. They must look at what had been the amount
of composition collected on tithes in the parish
during a period of seven years, and strike an
average founded on the amount of composition for tithes ac-
tually paid ; they should then award that the average value
paid during the seven years should be taken as the actual
amount to be paid as a rent-charge as a permanent compo-
sition for tithes in such parish. This was to be acted upon,
and not otl'.erwise, if the could not Ctithe-owners and tithe-payers
ix on the wjust amount of tithes that should be
paid. The Commissioners, in extreme cases, were em-
powered, to modify the principle, and were to have power
in making a calculation of the great or small tithes in a
parish •to diminish or increase the sum to be so taken
by a sum not amounting to more than one-fifth part of
the average value ascertained ;
subject then to this ad-
dition or subtraction, the amount of tithes to be paid
was fixed and settled by the Commissioners. He had
now arrived -at that part of the Bill by which it pro-
vided that either by voluntary or compulsory commutation
all lands in the country, except the tithe-free lands must be-
come subject to a certain principle. It was necessary, in jus-
tice and equity, that the payments should fluctuate as
to the value of: the produce. This limit and fluctuation
was to be pre,vided for in the manner he was about to state.
They were to get a fixed money payment to be stated in a
quantity of corn ; for instance, if they fixed a money pay-
ment of 3001, it should be so stated as to be at once trans-
latable into so many quarters of wheat, so many quarters
of barley, and so many quarters of oats, in equal pro-
portio7,s. They would thus get fixed for a rent-charge on
the P,iytrient of a certain quantity of wheat, barley, or oats.
is would regulate the money payment from year to
year, They assumed as data on which to calculate the
average price of wheat, barley, and oats for the seven years
terminating at Christmas, 1835. By fixing on this period
they would prevent all manoeuvring to raise or lower the
price of corn during the period while this Bill was in pro-
gress. h, making the calculation for any particular place
one of these seven years would be thrown out, and the
'Ye
additional year thrown in. By the addition of this one
ar, and by the subtraction of the other, the variations
in the prices of wheat, barley, and oats would be
-..lowed for sufficiently to meet any fluctuations that might
me likely to arise. Many ingenious schemes had been
...started with a v
Arent principle.iew to have the rent-charge made on a dif-
Among others, a gentleman, well known
many Noble Lords, Mr. Andrew Knight, President of
•Ittli:oeuglihotrticultural Society, as well as other gentlemen, had
it better that the price of wheat alone should be
tar ken as an element to calculate the rent-charge on, instead
of taking it jointly with the prices of barley and oats. He
.40-Ig.ht that by either of these means the object could be
labtained, but not in such a satisfactory manner as by taking
he prices of other gr ain as well as wheat. If ey tok :wheat alone, it would be found that it fluctuated more o
in
:its price than other descriptions of grain, although no
doubt the price of other grain was influenced by the price
43f wheat- He thought if Noble Lords would attentively
look into the subject, they would see that by taking the
average price of, three descriptions of grain the fluctuation
'would be less. These were the reasons, then, for proposing
to take the three qualities instead of one. Under the opinions
le had stated they had brought forward the measure, and they
moped to r.btain a money payment, either by voluntary or
.coulpulso,:y means, and this payment was only liable to the
:fluctuations arising from transferring it into a payment de-
pending on the price of three descriptions of produce.
'The amount, then, would be fixed for such payment by
the tithe-payer, and he trusted in a way that would be
satisfactory to all classes. This, then, was the outline of
the general measure, but, like all general measures, it could
mot be expected that it would satisfy the wants of every
Iparticular.case. He might he told that it would have been
Lban each etter to take the actual amount of composition in payment
And un.
ease ; but he thought it would be both impolitic
the "'I cxeltale the variation of the one-fifth part of
uaverage 1
Commission \faille, which it was proposed by the Bill the
lers should have the power to deal with, either
itnereasilg or diminishing the- sum .taken in the amount
tue cemposition. By this means they would allow for
laehiPteur.diar circumstances of each case, as well as for the
of the individual tithe-receivers both in those cases
'where less has been paid than should have been, and where
had been exacted than should have been paid.
,is might not meet the -particular justice of each case,
it it would afford substantial justice, and it would
'prevent the measure operating severely in many in-
rsiances.—(Hear, hear.) If the animosities and ill feel-
rings which the present system created could be set
takt rest by this Bill, and if, above all, the springs of in-
ustrY could be set free, and the farmers of this country
al-new ''.rat when they paid the rent-charge proposed to be
Fixed, that no further imposts could be fixed on them for
er improvement they might adopt, or increase they might
".,,y.tain to their produce, great good would be effected.
Very inducement would be held out to employ capital on
the land when it was known that under this Bill the owners
'of it would have nothing to fear in consequence of theira
ieterprise. If this couldbe accomplished, and a uniform
3.stern of law throughout the country could be adopted,
incalculable good would be done. He felt that this Act,
troznbined with others now in operation, would contribute
16° invigorate the springs of industry in the country, and
'would tend materially to increase the property and to pro-
3note the well-being all classes, and, above all, of the inha-
litants of the agricultural districts.—(Cheers.) He had
eßill ndeavoured to avoid going into detail en this stage of the
; but he should be happy now or at any future period
to give any farther explanations that might be required ;
lut lie trusted that he had said enough to induce the
house to adopt the general principles of the Bill, and to
educe the House to go into Committee.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of MANSFIELD admitted that the subject
'was one of the greatest importance, and ever since he had
lad a seat in the House he had been most anxious for a
settement of the question. It was impossible for him to
the admirable working of the Poor Law Bill, which
I°T-letly 'caused so much evil, and also the advantages
'which had resulted to the inhabitants of Scotland from the
commutation of tithes in that country, not to be anxious
:that the operation of the Poor Law Act should be ex-
tended, and the commutation of tithes should be adopted
.in this country. Although he differed in some points from
the Noble Marquis he was still most anxious that an
carry this Bill 'into effect. In
this country, happily, that difference of religious opinion
'did not interfere with the settlement of the question wlikth 'was so great an impediment to it elsewhere. The agree-
bent between the tithe-payer and the tithe-receiver was
essentially different in every principle from the contract 'entered into between landlord and tenant. The tenant
:knew that when he made an improvement he would derive
Q. profit from it, and the landlord wont& not come in to de-
prive him of a portion of his additional- gain ; but in the
!Payment of tithes there was an anticipation of profits, and
there was interference with property in a way which he
thought inconsistent with justice.—(ear, hear.) He
there was some
thought H
exaggeration with reference to the
evils of the tithe system, and he did not think it interfered
'with the improvements in agriculture which had often been
ztated ; but still it was most desirable that a commutation
should take place. He was happy to find that the clergy
innd left the matter to the consideration of Parliament, and
lie trusted that, in consequence of this, neither that nor
that
other House wonld neglect to regard the interests
o
--at body. The contrast of the conduct of the lay im.prof:
priaiors and the clergy, as regarded the collection of tithes,
Was highly creditable to the character of the latter. Tithes
Were rigidly exacted by the lay
impropriators ; but so far
as regarded the clergy, they never received—to their h -
.
sour he said it—they never attempted to exact
upon
anythingo
linke their just demand. He hoped
that in legislating )
his subject the moderation of the clergy would not be
suf-
fered to work to their disadvantage. He thought that a
al
ulatien should be made, not only of the tithes which
~e ,
receivea, but also of the tithes to which thoy were
k•ittitled. Formerly he had had some doubts as to the po-
"Y of having compulsory commutation, but he was now in-
idueed to think that it was desirable to combine the volun-
tary with the compulsory principle. He also went to the
extent of thinking that no measure could be satisfactory if it
'Old not contain compulsory clauses. As far as regarded the
1
Cod
the rent charge the arrangement appeared to
~Tri to be good. There did not appear in any part of the
43i1l clauses enacting that land now barren and taken into
cultivation should pay any tithes, or that the' tithe-owner
abouid. receive eny part, however small, of the produce.
tithe i
"4-e might be told that if these lands were made to pay
t would prevent their cultivation, for by means of
and railroads, lands not now worth cultivation might
be made productive at a fair profit. It Scotland he knew
,1131. some hand which fifteen years ago was barren, which
'lad since been brought into profitable cultivation, not-
r,,ithstanclin e, the fall in the price of agricultural produce.
aby tine
Bill, then, was lie to understand that although the
Sere'Yman tvould receive tithe to a certain amount for all
- rand • ,
, inclosed at present, that he would not receive any for
9s.hereafter enclosed ? There was another point to
which he wished to make an allusion. The value of tithes

taken at one-tenth were called the tithes of ordinary culti-
vation. If lands were under the cultivation of hops, mad-
der, and other things, they were what were called extra-
ordinary tithes ; and if this kind of cultivation was aban-
doned, the land lapsed into the payment of ordinary tithes.
Now might not this principle be applied to grass
lands in this way ; supposing a parish partly in grass and
partly in corn cultivation ; on the hay grounds there was a
very small modus paid to the clergyman. Now, if these
lands were thrown into cultivation, would it not be fair that
some arrangement should be made by which the titheowner
might receive some addition ? He perceived arrangements
of this kind were provided for in the case of hop lands.
He would not detain the House longer than by saying that
he hoped the Bill would receive the sanction of Noble
Lords. He would not answer for others, but he could not
help saying that he should feel disappointed if his Noble
Friends near him, who were opposed to his Majesty's Mi-
nisters upon political grounds, and differed from them in
foreign and domestic policy, did not give every assistance
to his Majesty's Government to carry a measure which all
parties must feel and believe to be for the public advantage,
and which was not crippled by any compromise of political
opinion, to which Noble Lords could not be expected to
assent.---(Cheers.)
Lord DACRE observed, that as he had introduced a
Bill into the House for the Commutation of Tithes, he
would take the opportunity of saying that he should give
the Bill, with some few exceptions, his most cordial support.
He regretted, however, that his Noble Friend did not ad-
dress himself to adopt some plan by which justice could be
done to all proprietors of land under different courses of
cultivation. He was induced to think that some such
course could be adopted without difficulty, and he was con-
firmed in this opinion, when he found that there were four
thousand parishes in England which were subject to a
rent charge as a composition for tithes. This was found
alike beneficial to the titheowner and to the cultivator.
Lord Althoep had obtained returns of the amount of rent
and tithes paid in 14 counties in England. These were
made up as accurately as they could be. According to
these returns, it appeared that the tithe paid in these 14
counties amounted to 532,536/. If a proportion of the rent
had been taken as an estimate for the tithes in a way which
he had formerly proposed, the amount would have been
547,659/. The difference, certainly, was not very
great. He regretted, however, that the principle had not
been adopted. He thought, however, the Bill on the
table might be made to work beneficially with some slight
alterations. The Bill might be divided into three chief
parts :—The first, to obtain the accurate amount of tithe
paid ; the second, to ascertain the proportion to be paid
by landowners in a parish, when the general amount of
tithes to be paid had been stated by the valuer. By the
34th section, the Commissioners were required to ascertain
the amount of the gross value of the tithe during the
seven years preceding. 'Were they to take the positive and
actual receipts of te tithe-collector, no regard whatever
being had to the cultivation of the land ? If so, he con-
ceived that they would proceed upon a principle of the
grossest injustice. He would contend, that unless the
Commissioners in their calculation were at liberty to take
the gross amount of the tithe, regard being had to the
inherent productive fertility of the land, great injus-
tice would be committed. This provision might be
amended by the introduction of the very words which
were made applicable to the valuers, in detailins, the pa-
rishes after the amount of the gross tithe had been fixed.
If the Commissioners were to be guided by the receipts
of the tithe-collector alone, the gross amount being fixed,
they would proceed to apportion between the parties the
amount of tithe which should be paid by each ; if they
found that one-half of a parish had been inclosed seven
years before, and that great capital had since been ap-
plied to that land, and rendered it more productive, then
they would fall back upon the other half, and render it
liable to double tithe, because they must make up the
gross amount. It might be contended that the 35th clause,
applicable to extreme cases, would meet one of this de-
scription ; but it was no extreme case ; he apprehended it
would be one of very general occurrence. He was not
sure either that even under the 35th clause the Commis-
sioners would have the power to allow the fertility of the
land to form one of the elements of their consideration.
He was quite sure that unless they had this power, no ge-
neral principle which should be applicable to every case
could be established. With such an adaptation of a proper
and amended principle, however, he believed the measure
would he productive of all the benefits which had been an-
ticipated by his Noble Friend in his opening speech.
Lord ASHBURTON hoped thilt the present measure,
like that for the amendment of the poor laws which had
been adverted to by the Noble Marquis, would be
considered without reference to any party or political
considerations ; and having this great advantage in ad-
dition to those of which its provisions were likely to be
productive, he thought there was a fair chance of
the country being benefited by it. Undoubtedly the
conversion of tithe into a per centage upon the
rent, if it could be done upon equitable terms, would be
most desirable. It would simplify the adjustment of the
matter, and would leave nothing open for wrangling or dis-
cussion, however trifling the matter which the Bill left to
be settled between the tithe-receiver and the tithe-payer
mig!it be, it did involve an annual settlement which might
occasion some dispute. As any observations on the diffe-
rent clauses of the Bill would be out of place on the motion
for the second reading, he would only say with reference to
the principle involved in it, that he should wish to see some
further time allowed for the voluntary settlement of the
tithe. The time allowed by the Bill extended only to Octo-
ber, 1837, and if a voluntary agreement were not then
come to, the Commissioner would proceed to make
what he might consider an equitable adjustment.
Many persons might apprehend that too extensive
powers were proposed to be entrusted to the Com-
missioners. They were certainly very great and very im-
portant powers, but at the same time any person who con-
sidered the su!iject dispassionately must feel that it was
only by means of such powers that any satisfactory settle-
ment of the question could be honed for. He admitted
that those powers might at first sight appear ohjectienable,
but still on further consideration so many difficulties pre-
sented themselves that it was judged right to vest them
in the Commissioners. He would merely add upon this
point, that the office was a most important one, and that it
was indispensable that its duties should be discharged by
sonic person in whom the country could repose implicit
confidence. The Bill which the last Government had intended
to bring forward was based entirely on the principle of the
voluntary agreement; at the same time they held out to the
parties, as a stimulus to action, that, if the voluntary agree-
ment were not made within a certain period, Government
would interfere and effect a compulsory one. He did not know,
upon the whole, whether the present plan was not quite
as good, or even better, inasmuch as it at once provided the
machinery by which the compulsory arrangement was to he
effected. He could not help thinling, however, and it was
a question which would arise in the Committee on the Bill,
that it would be necessary to allow some time for the vo-
luntary agreement. He was of opinion that, if, instead of
one year, two years were allowed, the compulsory agree-
ment would come sufficiently quick upon the parties to pre-
vent their sleeping over the matter, and to induce them
to set about arranging the differences, which would other-
wise be settled at a very considerable expense. lie was
the more anxious upon this point, because, though the mea-
sure had been a long time before Parliament, lie did not
think that the country generally were aware that such a
Bill was 'so soon to come upon them. These were all
matters of detail. As to the general principle of the
Bill, although it would not be difficult to find objections to
that also, he considered it, as good as any plan of that de-
scription could possibly be made. He was very anxious to
obviate the objection which had been made by the Noble
Lord who had just spoken ; but he feared no legislation
that could be devised would have the effect. He was
happy to see, and he felt quite sure the country would' be
happy to see, that a measure which had been so long tried
in various ways was at last likely to pass into a law.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY had every reason
to expect that the present measure would prove a satis-
factory adjustment of the question, and would, wiile it
relieved the land from the pressure of the tithe, also do
justice to the Clergy. He would fairly admit that he saw
touch that was satisfactory in the measure, and that it more
nearly attained perfection than he could have supposed
possible in a compulsory measure, which affected such ex-
tensive and complicated interests. Standing in the situation
he did of representing in some degree the interests' of the
Church, be could not pledge himself to support any measure
which would be unpalatable to the Clergy generally ; and
at present, owing to the change which had taken place in
the Bill, neither the Clergy nor the great body of the tithe-
owners of England had had a sufficient opportunity of
ascertaining what its principle really was. He should be
most anxious to see it in Committee, when all its provisions
improvement,
permoveinsit, and the expenditure of
provision
undergo the fullest discussion, and when he was sure
it would be the desire of their Lordships to do justice to all
P• arties With respect to waste lands which might be brought
capital,into tai
n was made by the Bill,
he agreed that to give the clergy tithe upon such lands
would be to prevent the expenditure of capital ; but when
nvadti foron which bYin n
inclosures of waste lands took place, he saw no reason why
the clergy should not participate in the benefit by having a
portion of the land set apart for their use. If this system
were now for the first time established he should not have
objected to the tithe being made a per centage upon the
rent, but a large system and many considerable interests
had grown up, and the case was materially altered. Al-
though, in some cases, the tithe came very hard upon the
rent, it.did not prevent the cultivation of the land, because
in many districts, such as Hampshire, Kent, and the
southern part of Oxfordshire, where cultivation was expen-
sive, and the productive power. of the soil great, there was
more capital expended in cultivation than in richer lands,