The Sun.
London, England, 1831-06-22 00:00:00

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JU:ISE '22, 1831.

systetn .of the country ; and with reterence to that he
could not 'help adverting to the very disinterested conduct
,f the ruble Duke, who, at a great sacrifice of personal I
and larillly interests, WV the e .alous supportur of Reform.
It was in itelf a great ar4urrient in Cavort" of Reform, that
the first Nobleman in the land was a strenuous suppott-r
of the measure, and that Nobleman
:being one who would
never viOlate his conscience to gain his pro Per situation in
that House, and wire never woiild act in opposition to its
lietateseven if the consequence should be the loss of the
situation, which he had at last attained. He would now
proceed to consider the several points of .the Address. He
most cordially echoed the congratulation' 6.. his Majesty's
Speech iio,the presuvation of peace. The success which
had hitherto attendcd the. exertions of his Majesty's Mini-
sters waf;in all probability, greatly to be attributed to the
eiecua4oce that they were well known to have been
always the strenuous and consistent advocates of peace,
when priket could be preserved in consistency with the ho-
nour of the country. As for the Belgian question he fully
4
concurred i e principle of non-interference recognised by
the Speec dthe Address; and he also concurred in
what,ln on rew, might be considered as an exception to
the ratle,; namely, in the interference, so far as the settle-
ment the_itrnal affairs of 13elaium might be connected
witl 111 fer6sta_of other Powers. He did neat think
a' FMinisters of'Vngland would venture to interfrre-
in the internal affairs of other countries beyond the limits
which he had mentioned ; but yet he could not help con-
.sidering it a fortunate circumstance that the conferences
were not conducted, on the part of this country, by those
who, while they commended the principle of non-inter-
ference, in the same breath pronounced judgment on the
question at issue. The part of the Speech relating to this
subject was in these terms :—",The principle on which
these conferences has been conducted has been that of non-
interference with the right of the people of Belgium to
regulate their own internal affairs„ and to re-establish their
own Government according to their own views of what might
be most conducive to their welfare and independence, on the
sole condition Sanctioned by the practice of nations, and
the principles of public law, that in the exerci e of
of that undisputed right . the security of neighbouring
nations should not he endangered." He concurred both in
the general principle and in the condition annexed to it.
It might happen that the people of a particular nation,
when they came to choose a Sovereign, might choose one
so connected with another Power as to endanger the inde-
pendence of other nations, and this was a case for inter-
ference. There was a great precedent for this in what
was called the war of the Succession, when Louis XIV.

laboured to place Philip on the throne of Spain. He wag
not prepared to say, however, that there might not be
times and circumstances in which even intervention even to

that extent might not be inexpedient and unadvisable. Bug
the example which he had mentioned at least afforded a
distinct precedent for this interference Objections, how-
ever had been male to any intervention in regard to the
question of boundaries. It appeared to him, however, that
that question came naturally under the cousideratien
in the conferences, and the advantage of its having been
taken up by the five Powers was, that the matter might
he settled without any recourse to arms. Of all modes
of settling a national question, the mode of having recourse
to arms was the worst. Ilefote leaving that part of the
Speech and Address which related to Belgium, he thought
it right to observe, that the character of the distinguished
individual spoken of as the future Sovereign of Belgium
would afford a strong guarantee for the preservation of
peace as far as respected that country. As to Portugal,
be congratulated their Lordships and the country that
satisfaction had been es promptly rendered as it was de-
cidedly demanded. He would not at present say anything
as to the individual now at the head of the Portuguese
Government, and as to the policy of the late Government
of that country in relation to Portugal ; he had given his
opinion in another place. As to the disturbances in other
parts of Europe, he hoped that some means would be
found of speedily putting an end to them. There was in
one quarter of Europe a struggle going on, which had at-
tracted-44-se.erertictilar attention of all Europe, awl the
deepest sympathy for one of the parties was felt and ex-
pressed among all classes, not only among those who had
the advantage of liberal institutions, but also among those
who had not that advantage. Even the Ministers of ab-
solute Governments could not help expressing their wishes
that this protected contest should be terminated in a man-
ner satisfactory to all parties, and felt and expressed the
most unbounded admiration of the excellent conduct of
the people to whom he alluded. But it might he inex-
pedient to say more at present on this interesting topic.
As to the revenue, lie thought the statement in the Speech
and Address particularly satisfactory. It appeared,
that while taxes to the extent of four millions had
been taken off, the consequent deficiency in the revenue
only amounted to three millions; and this, he was per-
suaded, would conduce materially to the preservation of tran-
quillity in the country', and to the increase of the authority
of Government. lie gladly took this opportunity of
hearing his testimony to the good effect of the policy of
Government in the repeal of the duty on coals ; sufficient
attention bad not been paid to the influence of cheap coals
on the comforts, and even on the manners and domestic
habits of the peasantry. The repeal of the beer duty had
certainly not yet been attended with all the, beneficial con-
sequences that had been expected. But for that he blamed
nobody. lie extremely regretted the distress which pre-
vailed in the west of Ireland. The Government had not
held out extravagant expectations of relief, or made pro-
mises which it could not fulfil ; but it had done all in its
power, and certainly the crisis had arrived when the pos-
session of the power to relieve had become synonymous
with the duty to exert it. The system in Ireland unfor-
tunately was, that the peasant was locateil on a small
patch of ground, sufficient only for a bare subsistence,
and, consequently, when a scarcity occurred, it was to
him a state of famine and starvation. He ,vas ashamed
twrr'
eeaatesoda as
the,undue
hi:
to say that he lied never been in Ireland ; but he had been
informed that the condition of the peasantry depended
greatly on the character of the landlord, and that great
changes were sometimes effected in the condition of the
opfeofileelasyndho
had
peasantry by a change of landlords. He was perfectly
aware that there was no small difficulty in producing an
effectual aineliiirkagtoiovnerinnedtheascotnileitipoenopolfea
been. Still long
it was well known that much had beeff done
by some individual landlords. He highly approved of
the conduct of the Government in repressing the dis-
turbances which had been occasioned by the dis-
tressed state of Ireland, by means of the ordinary
laws, instead of resorting to extra constitutional
means, which ought only to be employed in cases of
manifest and urgent necessity. Then, as to the fermi-
dable malady which was mentioned in the Speech and in
the Address, he hoped that it was not probable that it
would come into this country. But at the same time,
aihdneudeerafu precautionarytll apprehensionliyousalthough
l,m these
submitted
teead; s
utwaorneodsfuo
itrtdoh
thee br therefore
sake
ari
whichken ecl Ministersoi
oenf highlyinconvenient
tnhiee ng t
great
ap-
provedeatadot
undue confidence in this respect was as much to be depre-
ob;erldt:ilbne; view.
ts-sanY l'e°Pl6, yet he was sure that the inconvenience
His Majesty had stated in his Speech the
dissolving the last Parliament, which he had
undoubtedly
oednlyiuch dignity and decision. The measure
highly expedient, if nutuwnditolu' necessary, for the
purpose of ascertaining the ofthe .
sense
d:,anse
question of Reform. He would say
nothing on that sub-
ject for the present, except merely to clear those who
were in favour of Reform from some imputation' that had
been cast upon them. It h •
arl been said that they were
guilty of robbery—that theywere overthrowing the Con-
stitution—and that they
evinced a disregard
' order. But representation was given for the benefit of
the people, and if, through the change of circumstances
produced by time, the Ho; did note of Commons repre-
sent the people, it becomes the duty of those invested with
public trust to restore the representationto
its proper con-
dition. This was not to overthrow the Constitution, but
to restore and preserve it. It was utterly inconsistent
with the nature and object
of representation, to allow it
to be vested in the nominees
of individuals or small bodies
of men. The te • presentation ought to be a real represen-
tation of the t
PenP.e•—(llear hear.) It had been said
that the country had • ' •
attained a high degree of properity
under the old system. But the prosperity was only a
coincidence, and not an effect of that system. Then,
as to the accusation robbery, and the depriving
individuals aid bodies of
of tnen of their property with-
out compensation—there was a wide distinction between
that species of property held solely in trust for
the public, and that which
more immediately belonged
to the individual, It was remarkable circumstance,
that although Reform was opposed a
there was hardly an individual
who bywoulda avowetparty,
irisey yet
there
as a thorough Anti-Reformer. What the Reform of these

„on

PRICE 7D.

Ariti-Reformers was he did not know, but be well knew
that their arguttients went to the extent of opposing Re
form altogether. They thiid that the possession of the
lective franchise was a property which ought to be held
inviolate, except in cases where delinquently 17 as proved,
end that no places. ought to he disfranchised except the ,
,lectors tett convicted of abusing the franchise. But
upon that principle 'Vine ought to be disfranchised except
the actually guilty. There were ai-nr arguments addressed
to the feelings of this House. It was seitli that by an
efficient Reform many of their Lordships would be de-
prived of t6if Vreperty. But then, that was a property
which was held- only in gust. for the public, and when
it haprened that the trust could not be performed while
the pr ipery was in the hands by which it 11%13 sctuali)
held, those who were deprived of it in or.ler that it might
be placed in th,..! bands of:those who could and would per-
f trm the trust, had en reason to complain. Then it
was said that there was an individuality of interest in this
House fihiCh did not b long to the other—that their
Lordships Were hereditary and constant members of the
Legislature, and had on individual interest of their own,
while the members of the onset House had none but what
was derived from their constituents. Undoubtedly their
Lordships had a higher interest in the Legislature than
the inetobers of the other House ; and it *as an essential
,pant of the Constitution. that they should exist as a per.
ieanent and connecting link between the Crown and the
people. This was the true anti proper station and
.`unction of their Lordships, and of that species of pro-
perty it was far front the wish of the friends of Reform
to dept lee them. But by the principles of the Consti-
tution the representation in the other Rouse was intended
for the benefit of the peoples and to them only the right of
sending representatives to Parliament properly belonged.
It had been said that the Reform nosy proposed st'as an in-
vasion of the rights and would prove subversive of the
privileges of that House. In his opinion, the best security
of the privileges, and the ablest support of their rights,
would be found in the restitution of those unjust powers
which they had assumed, and which tended so much to de-
' tract from that character they should poSSess in the eyes
of the great body of the people.—( Hear, hear.) It had
been asserted, he knew not with what shadow of reason,
that the House of Peers could not preserve its station in

the country, unless its battles were fought by its nominees
in the other House of Parliament; but he was prepared
to contend, when the fitting time arrived fur such a discus-
sion, that the very worst expedient their Lordships could
resort to for the support of their power was that of main-
taining an army of observation in the House of Commons,
and that the continuance of such a practice was calculated
to end anger the existence of all the exclusive privileges
which they now possessed. He had thus stated his opinions
openly and boldly ; but he had not thought it fit at that
moment to enter into a consideration of the details of the
Reform Bill.—(Cries of " hear," from the Opposition.) He
repeated, he had confined himself, intentionally to the prin-
ciple of Reform. Another and a better opportunity would
occur for a consideration of the details, and he certainly
was not di-posed to shrink li•oin the discussion.—(Hear.)
If he had avoided it expressly on that occasion, it was be-
cause he knew a better opportunity would present itself,
and beenuse he was anxious, if it were possible, not to
make use of any argument which might, on the occasion
of a reply to his Majesty's Speech, promote unnecessary
hostility. Although he must at the same time take :cave
to observe, that the spirit manifested at the commencement
of the debate had very much diminished any hope of
ever getting rid of that hostility which some
Noble Lords were disposed to exhibit towards the sup-
porters of a plan of Reform in the representation of the
people. Many years had elapsed since be began to enter-
tain opinions favourable to Reform ; but many, very many
more had passed by since the necessity of such a conces-
sion was acknowledged by some of the wisest and most
patriotic men in the country. Lord Bacon bad observed,
that time was a great Reformer; but he had omitted to
mention another peculiar property which it possessed.—
Tittle was also an unsparing creditor, and. exacted all it
could demand with the-rigid scrupulousness of the usurer.
Those short-sighted men who obstinately set themselves
against all Reform were little aware of the compound in-
terest which would be exacted from them by time, and of
the great ar•rear of interest it would be finally compelled
to account for, when the long and often-demanded debt
came to he discharged.—(Hear, hear.) In the early days
and dark aces of the history of this country, the Barons of
England bad nobly stepped in to support the rights and
liberties of the people, when they had neither the sense to
understand their rights, nor the power to obtain them.—
He trusted it would not be lett for their age and their time
to say that the descendants of those Barons laboured to
maintain unjust privileges and to defend unjust claims at
the expence of the people, whose rights they had then so
nobly asserted. When the Reform Bill came before that
House, he was convinced that it would be found that its
provisions were compatible with the rights and privileges
of that House, and of the just and natural liberties of the
people. Satisfied that his Majesty's Government was pur-
suing a course at once politic and constitutional, he bad
felt it his duty to second the Address moved by the Noble
Duke (Norfolk), and he concluded by thanking their Lord-
ships for the attention with which they had favoured him.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA, before he addressed their
Lordships on the question then before them, felt it his duty
to state, and hoped the House would favour him with
their indulgence when he did so, why it was that he rose
on that (the Opposition) side of the House, arid why it
was that he had withdrawn that support which he desired
to afford to his Majesty's present Administration. In
stating the grounds which influenced him in withdrawing
his support from the Noble Earl, and from those profes-
sing what are called Whig principles, but which he was
now convinced were opposed to the best interests of the
country, he begged to be understood as entertaining the
greatest respect for the Noble Earl at the head of that
Government, who had through a long political life pre-
served his political consistency, and supported his political
character with a grace and earnestness which belonged to
few. In making this declaration, and in stating the
grounds on which he was compelled to withdraw his sup-
port from the: Administration of the Noble Earl, he was
influenced by no opinien that his support or hostility
could be of any great consequence to any one holding the
high situation of the Noble Earl in that House. He wall
well aware that the slight public and political weight
which be possessed, either in that House or in the
country, arose not from his talent, but from his reputa-
tion for honesty.—(Hear, hear.) It was on that reputa-
tion, and on his character for consistency, that lie was well
aware all his power and influence depended. On that, he
was now as ever prepared to stand or fall, and he thought
he should be wanting to himself, to his station, and to a
sense of public opinion, if he refrained now from declar-
ing the reasons which induced him to withdraw that sup-
port he h id tendered to the Administration of which the
Noble Earl was the head.—(Hear.) His opposition to the
Government was not founded on their proceedings with re-
spect to Reform—years ago lie had stated his opinion on
that question, and declared himself favourable tto it: It
was not, therefore, the Reform Bill which had changed
his opinions, although, when that Bill was introduced into
the other House, and its details became known, he had
Lanorddthopespeospiater,tsthhaet
Nhveoulddisoapp--
p;vorrosietiteednoTifili:leeatrtotesprin't)oifotanhaNthe expressed then he still enter-
tained. To the principle of the Bill he was friendly, but
there were parts of it which, after the best considera-
tion, he was still determined to oppose. His change
of feeling was not, therefore, to be attributed to this,
but he would honestly and fairly say, that he per-
ceived the differences said to have once existed be-
tween Whigs and Tories were not wholly at an end. He
would honestly say, that after the passing of those two great
measures—the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts,
and of the Roman Catholic Disabilities—he had thought
that all distinctions of Whig and Tory ceased to exist, and
that, having both professed themselves anxious for the
maintenance of the Constitution, they were now thoroughly
united in their desire to support it. He had thought that
all parties were now actuated by one mind, namely, the
best means of upholding the honour, and interests, and
prosperity of the country ; and that no difference of broad
political principle continued to exist. He found, however,
that one party were now advocating a measure which the
other declared would, if conceded, end in the subversion
of the equilibrium of the three powers in that Constitution
which was now the envy and admiration of surrounding
nations. This was one great distinction. The next was
that the great body of that party which was now in powe •
had lost no opportunity of advocating every measure whit's
would have the effect of destroying the connection betwten
the Church and the State.—(Loud cries of." hear.") A
connection which, in his humble opinion, formed the
ground of that great superiority of moral character for

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