The Sun.
London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

Gentleman had chosen the Convention Act as the basis of his pre-
sent measure. • Now that Act had already , failed; and he won-
dered why that 'which had been so inoperative should be
selected as the most probable to be efficient' now. Put it
never Would .be efficient enough to suppress the 'Catholic
Association entirely. - It would change its name without losing
any of its energy. Mr. O'Connel and his fellow labourer*
would continue to annoy the Ministers at every turn. The Hon.
'Member read an extract from Mr. O'Connell's speech, staing
his determination to hold similar meetings in some Way or
other. If the Association could not meet as a formal body, it
could meet at least as a dinner party. He would ask whether
the Attorney General for Ireland had forgotten the facts which
took place in 1811 ? The Catholic Committee at that time was
taunted with not representing the feelings of the whole Catho-
lic Body. They answered, " You shall see," and immediately
called a Convention, consisting of the Catholic Peers, Peers'
sons, Baronets, and ten delegates from each county in Ireland.
The Government soon became alarmed, and the delegates were
dispersed under what was called the Convention Ad. But
though the Catholic Committee was dissolved, yet every in-
dividual member was re-appointed, and the same thing 'would
take place again if the Catholic Association should he sup-
pressed. With such a knowledge of former facts, he wes
surprised •to see the Right Honourable Gentleman proceed
in exactly the same way again. All the machinery of law
would be put in action but in vain, for it was impossible
that the ponderous armed force (if he might Use such an
expression) of Government, could stand the contest with the
light airy troops of the Catholic Association. Mr. O'Connell,
Mr. Shrel, and a single reporter, could ol• themselves form
another Association as good as that which existed at present,
It was important to keep the actual state of Ireland constantly
in view, because as that state was the ground of the present
measure, the true character of that measure could not be
properly ascertained without cautiously examining the con-
dition of Ireland. He had resided in Ireland ever since
the lakt Session of Parliament, and in the quarters formerly
the most disturbed. There were no longer any of those
murders, massacres, and burnings, which used to fill so many
Melancholy pages of Irish history. The rent was punctually
paid, and leases were regularly made. This was a proof' of
tranquillity, for so long as any disturbance existed, the Irish
peasant preferred trusting to the chapter of accidents rather
than engage himself by the obligation of a lease. Many of-
the measures of the present Irish Government deserved praise.
The Tithe Composition Act, and the Insurrection Act, had
both been greatly beneficial. Of the Police Act lie could like-
wise speak in praise. The Police force was a decent 'and well-
conducted body of men—few offences were committed by them
—(Hear !)—still they were a kind of force which required u
most active and diligent controul, as they had all the inconve-
nience of a military body, without its capability of discipline
and controul. The Catholic Association had also contributed
its share to the establishment of order in Ireland. In spite of
all the censure which had been cast upon the Address of that
Body, he must think that such a pathetic and skilful appeal
could not fail to have a great effect upon the feelings of a
generous people. Circulated as it had been through the chan-
nel of the Priesthood, it had greatinfiuence over the peasantry.
Nor did he share in the horror expressed against the phrase
"by the hate you bear to Orangemen." lie had learned from
very respectable Catholics that a general impression prevailed
amongst them, that the Orangemen were attempting to stir up
an insurrection in the south of Ireland. True or fe:s this was
their impression, and no wonder that the Catholic leaders enter-
tained a similar impression. The real force of the phrase was
"by all that you consider sacred." It was an appeal to their
warmest feeling, and nothing more. A great many stories
had been circulated about plots and rebellions at Itoscrea, Car-
low, and New Ross. Yet on inquiring, they all turned out to
be fabrications. The great secret of Irish tranquillity was the
improved condition of the people—the increase of trade—and
the augmented happiness of the people.—(Hear, hear !)—That
tranquillity, however, was in danger of being interrupted by a
circumstance which, when alluded to by an Hon. Baronet (Sir
H. Parnell), had excited the sneer or the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He meant the Bible Societies. He concurred in repro-
bating the rash and outrageous attempt of those two modern
crusaders, who went about Ireland to make, as they avowed it
themselves, converts and pronlytes. As a specimen of the
manner in which these controversialists conducted themselves
he would read an extract from a report of a Bible Meeting held
at Carlow, which lasted several days. It was an extract fi-om
the dialogue which took place :
" Mr. Sweeny—' I cheose to personate a Socinian : how will
you convince, upon your Own principles,' that the divinity of
the Saviour Aims pater est major me—My Father is greater
than I.—How'do you explain that ?'
" Mr. Pope=--' By fair and legitimate reason. If the Re,
deemer be declared God in very many passages, as I have shewn
you this morning that he is, then we must look for some -ex-
planetion of the pas Sage that will not militate against them.
I inquire, is there any verse in which the Saviour was inferior
to his Father without compromising his essential divinity ?
The answer is obvious, in his Illediatorial office anti in his
human nature. This is,ehen, the explanation I would give :
Christ, while one with the Father, and equal to him in his God-
head, is interior tothe Father in his illedtatorial capacity and in
his manhood.'

" Mr. APSweeny replied—' That will not do, Sir : you 14-Ive
proved nothing ; you have given an explanation that may sa-
tisfy yourself of there being nothing the passage inconsistent
with the Father considered as to his divine nature.'
" Mr. Pope said I don't know what the Gentleman means
by proving nothing.'
" Mr. APSweeny4 The Father is greater than me ! You
have not, Sir, explained this passage so as to. satisfy a sea-
man, though you spoke fbr three hours and a half, •and
during your spec,:h you wandered considerably from the sub-
ject.'

" Mr. Pope—' I certainly did speak for a long time, hut I
deny that I wandered from the subject.'—This was followed by
loud cries of No, no l—‘ Answer question now.'
" Mr. Daly—Mr. Pope has answered the question. I appeal
to you all if this is not fair play. Should lie not answer the
question now ? You are all honest Irish fellows, and I am sure
like fair play.
_ _ _

".111r..111Sweeny—I will refer to the Chairman whether you
answered the question or not.

" Colonel Ifochfort—l must decline giving an opinion upon
this subject.—(` Bravo ! bravo !' and loud cheers.)
"A Gentleman here presented himself to the Chairman, and
said—' From the feeling which has been manifested, 1 think
the Meeting ought to adjourn for the present.' The scene of
tumult that followed this lasted foi several minutes. The Chair-
man endeavoured to calm the Meeting.
" The Rel. Mr. Shaw endeavoured to address the meetirw,
but it was impossible to catch a word that fell from him. It
appeared to be the intention of the mob not only to prevent the
Reverend Gentleman from being heard, hut to proceed to acts
of personal violence against the Protestant Clergy assembled on
the platform. With this view the temporary barriers that were
erected for the purpose of dividing, were broken doWn.
" Several of the candles were extinguished, and a scene of
riot and contusion took place, the most disgusting and disgrace-
ful. The doors of the chapel had been closed, and the violent
knocking and yells of those without, contributed not a little to
the horror of the scene. Mr. Ilattersby, the officer countianci-
iwr the police, having intimated to the Clergy of the Establish.
ed Church, that frOm information of which he was in possession,
as well as his own ifersonal observation, he could not undertake
to be answerable for their lives, unless they immediately re-
tired. The Rev. Mr. 'Wingfield, Daly, Pope, and Jamieson,
were obliged to scale a wall eight feet high, whereby they es-
caped the insults and attacks, of an infuriate rabble.
" Mr. Clowry asked if the meeting was to be adjourned, and
for what period."
" The Chairman—The meeting is adjourned, sine die.
" Mr. Clowry—Then I am quite satisfied for the present..-;-
(Loud and triumphant cheers.)
" The Rev. Mr. O'Connell then ascended the pulpit, from
which the Rev. Gentleman gave thanks to God for the triumph
that had been achieved; and also returned thanks to Colonel
Rochfort for the manner in which he contributed to it.".--(Loud
laughter from all sides of the House.)
Sueli were the materialS which Parliament would have to deal
with in legislating about Ireland. He ascribed much
.of the
growth of the Catholic Association to such injudicious discus-
sion. Last Session they heard little of the Association, and a
great deal of tithes, Grand juriei, partial
He was in Dublin lasts, Orange Socie-
ties, but nothing of the Association.
July, and attended as a stranger and unknown at some of their
meetings. The language he heard was temperate, and the rent
was very low. Within three months
nothingthere had arisen to occa-
nt rose from 501. per
week to 50t1/. 'Within that period
sion such an increase but the Bible SocietyMe,etingtmod the
Irish peoples, whicrh
.
attacked the Priesthood. and through the Priesthood
The Hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Parnell) was
pe
feetly right in attributing so much to the Bible Societies, and