The Sun.
London, England, 1831-02-05 00:00:00

'are before -the House. The general features of
plan of the Noble Lord, as he!'has justly stated, do not
ffect any great reduction of expence. He has candidly
stated, as I was sure he would do, that having inquired, he
found that no considerable diminution of change could
be made without infringing on the correforte of the King
and on the proper splendour and dignity of the Throne.
I may congratulate myself, therefore, on having the b sti-
many of the Noble Lord in my favour upon this impure
taut point, and there is not a candid man in the count, v
who would not render the !cane justice to the estimates
brought forward by his Majesty's late Government.
Whatever may have been said here, or whatever may
ithaveis no
been the
admitted that they were
thecrityrais:dagain st them
neitherout o f deoxot2is.
gerated nor improper. There is one important alteretion
' proposed by the Noble Lord, on which I confess 1 feel can-
' siderable apprehension. I apprehended that what tl a
Noble Lord puts forward as a reduction of expenditure,
will, in fact, lead, at no distant period, to a great aggra-
vation. He tells us that it is intended to abolish tl 0
office established in 1815, of Ateitor of the Civil List,
and that this duty is to be transferred ti the Trea-
sury. The total amount of charge is 2,400!. ; and
the reason assigned is, that the duties have been
adequately discharged by deputy. I knee that
while I was in office the exertions of Cis par-
ticular officer were essentially necessary -to prevent the
needless accumulation of expense in the department of the
Civil List connected with the royal household. If. the
Noble Lord thinks that the Treasury Board will he quali-
fied to enter into an examination of details of this sort,
or, in fact, that it will do so, he will find himself mis-
taken ; and encroachments will be then male upon the
personal comfort of the Sovereign. lie will find. per-
haps, ere long, that he his made a false calculation, and
that the apparent saving of 2,4004 per :minim may tender
it necessary hereafter to apply to Parliament. owing to the
want of due controul and the consequent increase of ex-
penditure. I should say, front my own experience, that if
any appointment of the kind has answered the purpose
for which it was made, it haw been the office which
it is now proposed to abolish. The experiment is at least
hazardous, and the effect of it may he to drive the King to
Parliament to relieve him from the pecuniary binders
of an excess in the expenditure for the royal house-
hold. I will not now enter into the question, how
far it may he expedient to withdraw frem the Civil
List that part of the disbursements occasioned by the
preservation and repair of the real palaces: the
Noble Lord means that these matters shall be
annually submitted to Parliament : be thinks that a yearly
discussion on such points, and others connected with the
Board of Works, will be highly desirable, inasmuch as they
relate personally to the Sovereign. Until lam mare fully
informed, I will only remark, that I differ from him in opi-
nion. The great alteration he proposes in the Civil L'st is
the reduction of the pensions, which were 155,000/. a year,
and were intended by the late Government to be 140,0001.
a year. The Noble Lord's plan is, that they shall be ree
dueed to '75,000/. a year. As to the amount of pensions
the King ought to be allowed to grant, my opinien is cer-
tainly not that of the Noble Lord. At no antecedent period
has it been so small as the sum I intended to propose. No
man can deny the necessi'y of the branch of charitable dis-
tribution ; hut the Noble Lewd intends to limit his Ma-
jesty's means in this respect to about half its pre sent
amount. My opinion is, that the prerogative of the Crown
will thus be unduly and unfairly restricted—not only below
what it has been iu former times, but below the amount
that ought to be fixed on, comparing the situation of the
country w ith the situation of the Crown. If I wanted a
popular topic upon which to descant, I should find it
here ; but I never have been, and never will be, the slave
of popularity. Let me ask who would deprive the head
of the State of what is necessary to its proper dignity :
I trust, whether in or out of office, I never sl-all be
found amongst the number. I concur with the Noble Lord
that the proposed change in the pensions will be to the ad-
vantage of the Crown nether than to its disadvantage. If
I understand the new arrangement for the next
.fa_etive(rylleneawarrec:
the power of the King to grant pensions will be increased,
while the restriction will only come into operation at some
hear.)futur pLereitodtileanHdou7ederTemsreimmeberrithleior,lvlltiirleistrbyn.
stands. Upon the English list, flue King may grant pen-
sions to the full amount of the annual vacancies; but in
Ireland and Scotland has he the same power ? By no
' means: the Crown is limited in the amount, whatever
may he the extent of the vacancies. fhe Noble Lord in-
tends to consolidate the three classes, so as to take away
the limitation ; and he besides places upon the Civil List
all the seniors among the pensioners, so that the King will
have the benefit of all the old lives, which, of course,
drop off the fastest, while all the young lives are thrown
upon the Consolidated Fund. The Pension List now
amounts to 155,0001. per annum, and the vacancies ;n
England may be stated, on an average, to amount to about
7,000/. a year. Since then all the young lives are thrown
upon the Consolidated Fund, and all the old lives pre-
served for the Civil List, the result will be, not a saving,
but a considerably increased expenditure, by enabling the
King to give a greater number of pensions than he would
under other circumstances have it in his power to give,
Before 1784 the pensions amounted to about 12,0004 and
before 1800 to about 42,0004, but now the lives that de-
crease slowly and gradually will be paid out of the Conso-
lidated Fund; and those that decrease rapidly, out of the
Civil List. Hereafter, in some future reign, and under
some other Administration, there may be a restriction upon
the power of the Crown to reward public or personal ser-
vice; but, under the present tilinistry, it can hardly be
said to be limited at all.—( Hear, hear.) Ido net state
this as an objection to, the arrangement, because I hold it
highly expedient that the Crown should possess rutiple
means for exercising its bounty. I will nit detain the
lloase now by entering into any details ; hut, with re-
spect to the annual inspection, which the Noble
Lord wishes to establish, into the salaries of .Atnbassas
dors and Ministers at foreign Courts, I must say that it is
an encroachment upon the constitutional tights and pre-
rogatives of the King—perhaps the tre:test encroachment
ever made. If we are to maintain the principle, that the
King is to regulate and conduct negotiations with other
States, is it possible that it shuuld be preserved, if the
Minister of the Crown must come down to the House
of Commons to settle thee specific salary of every Envoy__
to state the nature of his claim, the extent of his set vices,
and the circumstances that render negotiation nucessaiv ?

It seems to me thilt this part of the Scheme sit ikea et the
very foundation of a great and valuable constitutional prin.
ciple, that the Crown alone is to be entrusted with the ina-
nrgement of our diplomatic relations. A fortunate con-
currence of circumstances (though the present aspect of
affairs in Europe does not by any means seen► to promi-e
them) may prevent inconvenience in this respect for two
or three years; but sure I am, that if the Noble Lord
succeed in carryieg this part of his measure, many will
live to rue the support they gave it. He ha not state,►
that it is his intention to effect any reduction in the,di-
plomatic expenditure of the country ; but as it is not my
wish to deal unfairly by the proposition, it may be better
to postpone my remarks upon this branch until I have
seen the details. The Noble Lord and I differ upon
great leading principles, but I shall always be ready to
discus that difference with due regard to his con-
venience. I shall never be anxious to take undue ad-
vantage, but to give the fullest opportunity for the state-
ment of opinion, and for the support of it by argument.
There is only one other topic to which it is necessary
for me to advert. We are told that his Majesty has taken
upon himself the expense of an outfit for the Queen. To
those who have had an opportunity of personal access to
his Majesty—to those who have communicated with hint
on matters of expenditure (sways a painful subject, bet
most so between a Sovereign and his Minister), such a
decision gives no surprise: they must have anticipated it;
and I can assure the Noble Lord, that if there were any-
thing that could endear his Majesty to his people more
than he has already endeared himself, it would be his
deep regret and just consideration for the present circum-
stances of the country. I agree with the Noble Lord,
that if an outfit were necessary, the Minister of the Crown
ought to propose it ; and I only hope that his Majesty will
not find, that by his liberality to the people, he has unduly
lessened the stuns that ought to be applied to his own
person l comfort and dignity, so as to occ:ision hereaf:er
inconvenience and embarrassment.—(Hear.)

Lord ALTHORP—I rise to explain upan two points
where the Right Hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me.
First, as to the abolition of the office of Auditor Of the Civil
List, what I meant to say was, what is really the fact, that I
found nearly the whole of the duties of the Auditor dis-
charged by his deputy. I have, therefore, done what I
shaq always think it right to do in such cases—l have
abolished the office of Auditor, and I have provided that
the deputy shall continue his duties for a much less sum.
--(Hear, hear.)---On the other point I fully agree with
fhe Right Hon. Gentleman : it would be inconvenient anil
inexpedient that the items of diploinatie exrealture
should be annually brought before a Commit eof Suppl ;
and I propose, therefore, that the amount should be paid
out of the Consolidated Fund. It will the') Ile under the
controul of Parliament ; but the particulars will not cisme
before it every year.
Mr. GOMA-UM-IN— Then, as it appears to me, the .il.-
(erenee will be no more than this :—To pay in two suo,,
and out of two funds, what has hitherto been 1, ad ''He
sum, and out of one loud.
Sir H. PARNELL referred to the grounds on which