The Sun.
London, England, 1822-03-29 00:00:00

day, and was often in consequence of the :order of the II " detaiiked till late in the evening. It was others ; but who in
this delay that led to the practice of employing agents, and it had again come forward with their (deities.. " •-
frequently happened that in consequence of it, debts were relin-
quished, or paid without any just demand. If a Committee SUPPLY.
On the motion thatthe House should resolve itself into a
were appointed, he thought thay would be of opinion that the Committee of Supply,
Court ought to sit more frequently. Another abjection was
that the Court was not sufficiently central. The jurisdiction of Mr. GRENFELL complained of the manner in which 'ord-
nance contracts for old stores were entered into. The biddings
it extended from Red Lion-street to Turnham-green. The
should be public and not private, as they had so long been. He
number of causes were, on an average, 180 every day. On some
wished to know if any contractors were allowed to waive their
days the summonses amounted to 450. Something might be
done to remove this pressure of business, by sitting more fre-
contracts ?
quently. The salary of the County Clerk was quite sufficient Mr. R. WARD concurred with the Hon. Member as to-the
propriety of having all sales and purchases as public as-pos-
to call on him for a discharge of more business. He had no
sable. For years it had been the practice to sell by private as
charge to bring against Mr. Heath, the Gentleman 'who filled
well as by public sale. In a short period, stores to the amount
the office at present; quite the contrary. He made a reduction
of 140,0001. were sold by private sale; in only one instance was
in the fees of the Court, which were now one-sixth less than in
the time of his predecessor. In his return heitated that his pre.
there a large sale of iron to Messrs. Crawshaw and Co., a most -
respectable firm. This was not done until after mature' consi-
decessor received 3s. upon every case, which was now reduced to respectable
They *anted to make the sale where they could-find
2s. fad. He stated the number of causes yearly to be in round
numbers 17,000. Out of these he paid the house rent of the Court the best market, and were, besides,
and the salaries of clerks. Besides the Court clerk, there were given time ; such were the reasons obliged to sell within-a
which governed their con-
other
duct—reasons satisfactory to the Ordnance,` though probably
officers receiving fees, such as the Crier. He understood
that the predecessor of Mr. Heath received the fees•Of the Crier not so to Hon. Gentlemen' opposite. It was true that certain
himself, and paid a-salary for discharging the duties of the office. persons wished to get off their contracts, and he had received
Taking the causes at 17,000, the income of the office would be various offers by way of compromise ; but the Board of Ord-
- •
2,1001. a year, and supposing 5001. to be paid out ofthis in rent nance peremptorily rejected them.
and salaries to clerks, .11tere would remain. to the county clerk Sir U. BURGH said, the Board of Ordnance should be left
to their own discretion in making sales as well as purchases, .or
between 1,4001. and 1,6001. Some fees were received which he
else they could not get on with the public business.
believed were not authorised by Act of Parliament, such as that
for postponement. On taking out an execution for the seizure
would go to throw a'discredit on the mode of doing business in
of goods the fee was 35.41, whether a seizure took place or not.
every other. office. The sale alluded to need not have been
Another circumstance Worthy of consideration was the amount
of money paid yearly into the hands of the clerk; and the ba- pressed on the market, as iron was not a perishable commodity,
and would have been kept for years. There might be excep-
lances that might remain unclaimed. The sum in hand was not
tions to public sales, but iron could not come within those ex-
less, one year with another, than 8,0001. or 10,0001. During
,ceptions. Having said thus much, he begged to ask, why the
twenty-five years that the last gentleman held the' efree, no ac-
sale of old Ordnance stores was not put under the head of- in-
count was given of unclaimed money. There Must be large
sums of that kind, where debts were paid in at the rate of fideor come, as was the case in the sale a Navy stores ? He did not
mean to say the proceeds were not credited to the public ; but
ls. a week, for which persons living at a distance would net
it certainly was a bungling way of keeping the accounts.
think it worth while to call. Various other circumstances, such
. Mr. R. WARD explained, and said, that he admitted the
as the death of plaintiffs, must occasion balances to remain tin- . general propriety of public sales • but still contended that. a
claimed. Anollier inconvenience worthy of the attention of a discretion should be vested in the hoard. In a recent case of a
Committee was that those who had money to receive were re.
sale of saltpetre, the Board received many hundreds more than
stricted to four hours in the week; from ten till two o'clock on
Fridays. The Hon. Member. concleded by moving, that the
return laid upon the table should be referred they would have done by a public sale.
to a Committee, Mr. GRENFELL -understood that the Hon. Gentleman
to inquire whether the fees in the County,COurt of Middlesex (Mr. Ward) unequivocally pledged himself Last year to have
no other than public sales, except in -very particular cases. .If
might not be diminished, whether the bounty Clerk might not
to sit more frequently in the Hundred of Ossulstoe, aodi the Board of Ordnance acted right, all the other Boards must
n the
other hundreds of the county. have acted wrong for years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; there
Mr: BERNAL opposed the motion. It did not aPPeer to
was a great deal of discussion without much difference of opinion
him that his Hon. and Learned Friend established any ground'
on this subject. All agreed: that publicaompetition was not only 1
for it. The. proposition, in his opinion, ought to originate in a
petition from some suitor of the Court, stating ground for corn. the safest course, but also the freest from suspicion. So far did
this principle operate that all the money transactions of the
plaint. There appeared to be no complaint against•the gentle-
country, such as loans, were always contracted for in public.
man who now filled the office. He discharged the dutiee of it
to the satisfaction of the suitors, and expended, out of his own Sir J. NEWPORT said, an unlimited discretion, as con-
tended for by the Gallant Officer (Sir Ulysses Burgh), should
pocket, 2,0001. for the erection of a proper Court. Ile was not never be vested in any Board. '
at all overpaid for his laboers ; and as to any emolument aris.
ing from the causes heard at Edmonston and other places, it Mr. R. WARD said, he was sure they all agreed that sale by
public should form the rule, and sale by private the exception.
was expended, he believed, in the journeyings to and from
them. It was to be considered that the gentleman who filled £236,339, to complete the charges for Land Forces of Great
the office used to practice in another Court, but had lately given Britain.
£236,330, to complete Land Forces abroad.
up his practice for the purpose of attending solely to the busi-
ness of the County Court. He thought it would be occupying The Report of the Committee of Supply was then brought eta
and the Resolutions were agreed to, after a few exceptions ueged
to no purpose the valuable time of the House to appoint a Com-
by Mr. Iftemo, particularly against the Staff of his Royal
mittee on this subject. The only Proper ground for such a pro.
Highness the Duke of York, and Military College. The. Hon.
ceeding would be, either a petition from the Homage Jury, or. Member concluded by moving that the vote proposed should be
from a suitor of the Court.
reduced by the sum of 3,4221. ..
The Hon. GREY BENNET said, it was not the object or
his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Lennard) to make out any Mr. F. PALMER objected to the' propoied ode.
criminal case against the County. Clerk. From the showing of Lord PALMER said, that the utility and expedieneY
of the establishment had already been fully discussed, and he
that officer himself, his Hon. Friend' proved that substantial should-not, therefore, occupy the attention of the House in ",
again adverting to it.
justice could not be done to the suitors of the Court. There
was no charge against Mr. Heath. The object. f _the motion , .
was to procure a more speedy dispatch of business. Ile should Sir H. HARDINGE said that . the objections of the Hone
for Aberdeen to the proposed vote were not then intro-
..
like to know if the situation of ounty Clerk was not bought H
diced for the first time to the attention of the House. e had
and sold—if the gentleman who now filled the place had not .
on a former occasion, and by his felicitous and peculiar method
C
bought it ? The Sheriffs of the County should not be allowed of calculation, stated that the expense of educating a single cadet
cost the country 7201. and that but twelve or thirteen out of those •
to put this money into their pocket. If it was a situation that
might be purchased, the greater the fees were, the greater would who were so educated obtained commissions each year ; and he .
be the sum expected for it, and those who had the disposal of it had added the number of those who entered the College ever!
would of course have an interest in increasing the tees. He
looked upon it as a very fit subject to go to a Committee. year, as if they were to have been provided with commis,siattee
It immediately upon the expiration of that yeare instead, as it was
would, perhaps, be the best mode to bring in a Bill for regu- necessary by the regulations of the College, of continuing there '
lacing the Court. If, however, his Hon. and Learned Friend four years. Thus he proceeded in the same way, as if he were
(Mr. Lennard) moved for -leave to bring in a Bill, he would
then, perhaps, be told that a Committee should first inquireinto calculating. the Members of that House, upon this novel and in-
the subject. The Court, from the information he received, re- genious principle, that because there were 668 Members these
in the present year, ergo, at the end of five years the number of .
quired some regulation. Causes were decided there by a Jury, Members must amount to 3290. Another complaint which the ,
but he was told that the twelve persons who sat in a corner, ute. Hon. Member made was, that the commissions were not bestowed
der the name of a Jury, were shabby looking men,
.more like upon l upon those in whose favour
convicts than jurors. The class which sat there, as-he had been the deserving, but simply
informed, was such as would not be considered fit for jurors, in. Parliamentary influence was exerted. Now, it was quite hue
the proper acceptation of the term. wssible to supersede a cadet who had passed his examination.
The SQLICITOR-GENERAL said it was true his Hon.
.rie obtained his commission as soon as a vacancy occurred, and
the only instance
wasthe ienaswehoifchahyeouenvgermknanew w
and Learned Friend (Mr. Lennard) brought nocornplaint against practice, ahodeplas. se
the Gentleman who filled the office. No petition had been pro, iatidonafinpromseadtha.t
tented from any suitor charging the county clerk with miscon- mirable examination, and who, in consequence of his very
duct, with a delay or a denial of justice ; such being the case, efficient answering, was placed at the head of the list—a young
he did not thiok that any Parliamentary ground had been esta- man, the son of an -officer In a Veteran battalion, who was
blished for going into inquiry. The Member for Shr b ews UV quite unknown to the Commtinder-in-Chief.—(Heer !).—At the
(Mr. Bennet) said the Jury was of a class which ought not to-sit very same period, too, a young raileman had passed, and most
creditably, his examination. The name of the officer's son
for the decision of causes. If the Hon. Member would refer to was Adams, and Lord Falconer was the young noblemanee—
the Act of Parliament by which the county court was regulated,
(Hear !)—He thought it right to state these circumstances, in
he would find it there provided that they were to be of the same order to remove .4 most unfounded imputation upon the man'
class as the Juries summoned to decide causes at Nisi Pries in nor in which the Commander-in-Chief presided over this De'
the Courts of Westminster Hall. In cases of misconduct, a partment.
remedy was peovided, for the two Chief Justices were vested Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, that the allusion of the
with summary jurisdiction to regulate the Court. There was• Gallant Officer was quite irregular. He had been referring
no necessity, therefore, for applying to Parliament. The consti. •to what had passed on a former occasion, and he had ms re-
tution of the County Court was so good, that Sir SVm. Black- presented his calculations. He contended' i
that he was right as
stone•selected it-for particular praise, on account of the small to the expence incurred by the country for the education Of
amount of the fees. If any fees had been taken improperly, every cadet who entered that college. One hundd fiver years,
why not complain to the proper jurisdiction ?—lt was not, he actually obtained commissione in the coarse of five years,
-thought, quite fair on'the part of the Honourable and Learned though four hundred and fifty were educated.
'Gentleman (Mr. Lennard) to insinuate that the present County The House divided—
Clerk, or his predecessor, had acted improperly, when no pe- .
tition had been presented to that effect. lie must inform the • For the amendment - - - el 5 • •
Honourable Gentleman, that a complaint had been made Against it - - . . . .33 • ,
against the person who last filled the office :it was examined Majority - - -' -—2 - .
by Lord Ellenborough and Sir Vicary Gibbs, and found to
On the motion that the sutn of 35,0001. should be granted
be destitute of foundation. The only ground now offered for
• to the Master-General of the - Ordnance, for payment 1,
clerics,
'
inquiry, was, that the-causes were too numerous to be decided . • - '
in two days out of every week. The County Clerk was 'not r' cc.
HUME proposed an amendment to reduce the proposed'
confined to two days. On the contrary, it was his d rite by uty, by •10,0001.
Act of Parliament, to sit a sufficient number of days for tits- Mr. WARD b o served upon the period that the Hon. _lf
op-
patching the business. The gentleman who now filled the office b had selected for
found two days quite sufficient, and he never retired from Court aserthe whole of the Barrack and Comm' •
Commissariat Department were
till every cause, was heard. The inconvenience complained of about to be brought under the direction of the master of the
that suitors were kept waiting from nine in the morning did not •
Ordnence . without any additional charge, he thought it right to
exist, for, to • prevent delays, the day was divided into two per. propose such a reduction. .
tions, and different causes heard in each. The average number The amendment •
was put, and • negatived without a division.
of causes was not 180, but 160, of which half were undefended, 'On thel motion, that a sum - (which could not accurately be
beard) should
and of course soon disposed of. There were, therefore, only 80
_ould be granted for the Medical Department,
defended causes ;and in half that number, the only defence Mr' HT* IE proposed the reduction of 1,5001. from this vote,
L II
was a plea of poverty ; soehat the actual causes that could cause the
sum psi to Sir J. 'Webb, for the very useless occupation
any delay, were but . forty or.fifty. The gross receipts of the. -which. he hell, and which ought to be done away with: .
office Were about 2,0001., out Of which rent and officers were to
ser U. BURGH said a few words in reply to Mr. Hurtle.
be Paid ; so that the salary was not more than 1,5001. For this
the. County' Clerk had very laborious, duties to perform. He Mr. WARD said, that to meet the observations which Mre
was obliged to attend two days in the week for hearing causes ; Hume had made upon the character of Sir J. -Webb, he begged
two days also were set apart for payments to be made out of to inform the House, that that Gentleman had been 27 yeare
Court. • There were two or three persons employed in this duty, and eight months in the British service, that he had served, in
for the money paid in was not less than 38,0001. a year. He almost all parts of the world, and had been honoured with the
was unwilling to assent to the motion, because, so far, from approbation of all the officers under whom he had served. • He
thinking that the Constitution of the Court required alteration, wished particularly to call the attention of the House to the cir-
he thought it worthy of imitation ; and because the acntleman cumstance, that at the evacuation of Egypt, when. a particular
there
who now presided ere discharged the duties of it with the tit- disease had appeared amongst the troops, he had volunteered
Most care, zeal, and 'assiduity. remaining behind, and that by his cave lie-had perserved man/
After a feiie words from Mr. Letihard, Mr. %V . Smith, Mr, of the troop. This was the person whom the lion Gentleman
P. Moore, and Mr. Courtenay, the motion was negatived with: said was perfectly new in. the army.—(Cheers.)--1. more bold'
out a division. . . _ . , assertion, and at the same time a more unfounded one, he-had
IRISH FIVE PER CENTS. - - never heard.—(Cheers.)
- The Irish Five per Cents. Bill went through a Committee, Colonel DA VIES rose to order. . • -
the Report of which was read, and ordered to be taken into fur- ' Mr. WARD resumed. He thought that he had said enotte
ther consideration to-morrow. respecting the services of Sir J. Webb. The Hon. Gentlemeel
had asked him, if -Sir J. Webt excused attendanceeir

•
ROYAL BURGHS.
The Royal Burghs' Accounts' Bill was read a second time;
and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next.
The LORD ADVOCATE .said, he proposed to have it
committed then pro forma ; and after it should have been
printed,. to have it fully discussed.
• Mr. MAXWELL remarked, that he, with many other Mem-
bers wished to make several observations on this Bill ; but tm•
derstanding that it was to be committed only pro forma, he had
no objection now to offer. - •
AMERICAN- LOYALISTS.
• Mr. WILLIAM SMITH: wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, why no part'of the money which had last
year been voted for the Americanloyalists had yet been paid ?
After 30 years of solicitation, they had been allowed 10s. in the
pound; but not ls. had yet been- paid.
The • CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, the
money was issued at once ; but others had come forward with
clalins, as valid as those of the list which had been before the
House; and the delay had been occasioned by the difficulty of
ascertaining who were really entitled to the money.
Mr. W. COURTENAY had understood that no steps were
taken to investigate their claims.
.The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
very considerable pains had been taken, but that it had been
found very difficult to proceed: If they once stepped out of
the list which had been before the House, it would be extreme-
ly difficult to find a limit to the claims.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the claims had been brought forward
. by those who refuse 4 to `embark in the.. same• course with
• .. 2 • • - - . ••

-Jb was not ex,.
Woolwich ? He would pointedly answer' " No." Sir J.-Webb
was regular in attendance upon his duty, and in his turn at,
tended the Hospital. The lion. Gentleman had also assered;
that many junior Surgeons had been withdrawn to make way
for Sir J. Webb. For that assertion there was not the least
foundation.
Col. DAVIES explained. He did not mean to deny the,
merit of Sir J. Webb 9 • but there was in every man's breast a
desire to speak well of himself ;- and though the account which
Sir J. Webb gave of his services might be substantially true,
yet he (Col. Davies) would affinn, that there was not a single
assistant-surgeon who had served with his regiment in the Fe*
ninsula, who had not done, more than Sir J. Webb. -
Mr. HUME explained. He denied that the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Ward) had refuted his statement respecting Sir -x•
Webb.
Mr. T. WILSON supported tie origir i ;rant.
- The Amendment was then negatived wii.riout a division, art'
the original Resolution carried.
The other Resolutions were then agreed to. -
The Irish Commercial Credit Bill was read a second time;
&her some observations from Mr. S. RICE and Mr. GOO'.
BURN, and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
The other Orders of the Day were then read, and the House
I Adjourned at ELEVEN O'CLOCK.

Lord MILT ort has, from the indisposition of his Lady, bee____.n
prevented attending his duty in Parliament, up to the For'
period-of theSe.ssion. • •