The Sun.
London, England, 1836-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY. FEBRUARY 24, M 6

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they obt,aired a Favourable opinion from Sergeant Lens, Sir Wil-
liam H arose Mr. Baron Gurney, and Mr. Adolphus. Untloub -
edly; szeeeding to the case submitted to those Learned Gentlemen,
the Ceange Institution was not an illegal society in 1822. A. 50-
•ciety, however, may, according to its printed rules, be strictly
legal, yet, in praet:ce, depart from those rules, and be an -
gal eaciety—( Hear, hear, hear)—and this 1 heheve to have been
the, ease of the Orange Institution in 1822 ; this, however, is
of little consequence. The House must bear in mind this fact,
'that in 1832 the rules of the society were materially altered from
those which were submitted to Sergeant Lens, and were assi-
milatsd to those of the Orange Societies in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, it is in consequence of those alterations, it is in co nse-
queue° of the existing rules, that 4 contend that this societyis an
illegal one. Though the printed rules of a society ere the worst.
possible evidence of its legality, yet, as admissions, they arc the best
evidence of its illegality.—',llear, hear.) I am convinced that if
Hon. Gentlemen will ixamine the rules- of the Orange institution. '
and will likewise l'eok at the words of the statute, they will
tic-
sitate in affire'eug that this society is, to all intents, illegal to:n-
bination eeid confederacy.—( Hear, hear.) nese are statutes
againee illegal societies. The 37 Geo. Ti. c. 123; 39 Geo.
;9; and the 57 Gco. 111., c. n. Now, Sir, in my opinion,
the Orange institution is an illegal society, in various rummers, under
these statutes. I consider that it would be easy to prove that the
Orangemen in reality assent to a test or declaration not required or
authorised by law, and if this be the case, the society would be
ille-
under the 57 Gco. 111., c. 19. I consider that, to all intents
and purposes, the religious ceremony called the ritual is an oath not
required or authorised by law, and if this be the case, the society
would again be illegal under the 57 Geo. III.; c. 19.—(Hear
bear.) I consider that the Orangemen are bound, in consequence
of being Orangemen, to obey the commands of their grand resestee,
who is a leader or commander, not having authority by law
for such purpose, and if this be the case, the society is illegal
under the 37 Geo. 111., c. 123.—(Hear, le ear, hear.) I do no-
intend to insist upon these positions, beeause I should be unwilling
to appear to strain the meaning of a criminal statute. I shall con-
tent myself with refer'ing to thet portion of 39 George 111., c• 79,
which the Committee has rated, and under which the illegality of
this society seems, to inc, meet manifest ; the 39 Geo. 111., c. 79,
enacts, that " every society which shall be eomposed of different
divisions or branches= ee in different parts acting in any manner se-
parately or distirea from each other, of of which any part shall have
any separate r- distinct president, secretary,- treasurer, delegate, or
other of ee..r elected or appointed by or for such part, or to act as
officer n• fe such part," shall be deemed an unlawful confederation.
T' 1. 'ee Orange Institution is " composed of different divisions or
brreiches." This fact is acknowledged in the address of the Orange-
eaen to the Carlton Club ; after enumerating the advantages which
the Conservatives would derive from becoming Orangemen, they
say, "in order that the constituency may be able to know
the patriot from the demagogue—the honest man from the pre-
tender—where can they so well apply for information and ad.
vice as to the Grand adge of the Institution—(Loudlaughter)—
which being in active correspondence with all , its branches,
possesses the facility of knowing the principles of every man
in the country." in order to prove my position more distinctly,
I shall now prove that each Orange Lodge (or as it is sometimes
called, warrant,) is a separate and distinct branch of the Orange
institution, seperate and distinct from each other lodge. In sroof
of this position I would refer to the appendix, page 141. 7 here
the House will find a list of 265 warrants or lodges distinguished
from each other by different numbers stated to assemble at different
places and at different thnes.—(Hear.) In the evidence I find
that at Glasgow a lodge is called " The Gordon Lodge ;" at Berne-
ley there is a lodge called " The Royal Cumberland Lodge," In
the itinerant warrant granted by the Duke of Cumberland,
powers are delegated to Colonel Fairmin " to open new lodges
and to set them in full operation." The facts are in themselves
sufficient to create a strong presureSetion that each lodge is a
seperate and distinct branch of the 'orange Society. 1 shall now
explain in what manner, according to the rules of the institu-
tion, each lodge is dietinee from each other lodge. By rule
7, every member of Ile institution, from the rank of Grand
Commissioner dove nwards, must belong to some specified
lodge ; and no person is of right entitled to a seat in the Grand
Lodge, nor drill be proposed for office unless the Lodge to which
he belongs 'se. mentioned in his certificate. This rule proves that
each Les' ge has its own members separate and distinct from the
membesrs of each other Lodge.—( Hear, hear.) Now with regard
to'etee duties of these members, if the House would refer to rules
, 41, and 7, it would find that each Lodge has not only its sepa-
rate and distinct members, but it has likewise its annual receipts,
separate and distinct from those of other Lodges ; it has its own
funds separate and distinct from the funds of other Lodges; it has
its own officers, its own bye-laws, separate and distinct from those
of other Lodges, and members of other Lodges have no right to in.
terfere either in the distribution of the funds, the elections of the
officers, or in the making of the bye-laws. For instance, if I were
an Orangeman—which, thank God, lam not—l must belong
to soree particular Lodge, say to the Grand Cumberland
Lodge at Barnsley ; I should be obliged to attend the meet-
ings of that Lodge at least once a year ; I should be obliged to
Ipay an annual subscription; I should have a right of voting
with regard to the distribution of the funds, the elections of the
officers, and the bye-laws of the lodge. If I were to be in London
I might attend the meetings of the metropolitan lodge on the pro-
duction of my certificate ; but I should not be bound to pay a sub-
• scription to the metropolitan lodge ; I should not be obliged to at-
tend the meetings of the metropolitan lodge, and if I were to attend
the meetings I should mere') be admitted as a visiter ; I should
hare no right to bear a part in any of its proceedings ; I should be
unable to vote on any subject, either on the distribution of the funds,
the election of the officers, or on the bye-laws. Now, it is the right
of voting in these meetings which, according to Sergeant Lens, is
the material part of acting separately and distinctly ; and this right is
reserved in each lodge to certain individuals exclusively. Thus, as
an Orangeman, I should be obliged to belong to some branch of
it ; and, consequently, the Orange instituting is ti society coin-
posed of separate and distinct divisions and branches, and of parts
acting separately and distinctly from seep's other, and is con-
sequently an unlawful confederacy. gut the lodge is not the
only branch of the society ; each lessige is attached to some district,
which is likewise a division o' the society. This fact is easily
proved. In appendix, page 14. s there is a list of district warrants :
each district has its deputy-rand master, who is obliged to report to
the grand lodge, and who, according to rule 3, represents in the
grand lodge the masters of warrants. Each district has its half-
yearly meetings for 'the arrangement of its affairs. In rule 8, the
object of these district meetings is stated, They assemble for the
purpose of investigating matters of a local, nature, and in order to
receive returns from the masters of each lodge, which are afterwards
transmitted to the grand lodge. These meetings are composed of
certain specific individuals who have duties to perform separate and
distinct frotnthose of the memlsers of other districts. The right of
voting in these meetings is cerdined exclusively to certain individuals.
As
each the ar e
is gume a
nts whien I employed in order to prove that
lodg separeee branch of the society, are the same as
those which I shoele. now have to employ, the order to prove that
the district is a branch of the society, I will not repeat that the so-
ciety is illegal, on account of the manner in which its officers are
appointed or elected, according to the words of 39 Geo. 111. c. 79,
which I heve already read, every society " of which any part shall
have tiny sepa-ate or distinct president, secretary, treasurer, dele-
gate, or other officer elected or appointed by or for such part, or
to act as an officer for such part." Now, Sir, there are a host
of officers appointed for particular parts of the society, and to
act as officers for such parts ; and there are other officers,
elected by parts of the society. App., page 131. In rule 3, I
find " the deputy-grand masters of counties, cities, and bo-
roughs sending Members to Parliament, appointed by the Impe-
rial Grand Lodge ;" " The deputy-grand chaplains of counties,
cities, boroughs. and districts appointed in like manner ;" " The
deputy grand masters of districts appointed by the Imperial Grand
Lodge on the recommendation of the brethren ;" and if the House
will refer to the annual reports of the Grand Lodge, they will find
the names of those why are thus appointed. The offiters of each
Lodge are elected. In rule 3it is stated—" The . masters of war-
rants are annual.'sy elected by their respective members subject to
the approbateen of the Imperial Grand Lodge." The election must
take place 'in the first week in May. The fee on the first election
is 55., or, re-election, 2s. 6d.—ltule 41. The chaplains of each
lodge are antually elected. The committee-men are likewise
elected. I need not trespass upon the patience of the House by proving that these rules are adhered to—the evidence given
nefore the Committee would easily demonstrate this to any
person who will take the trouble of reading that evidence._
(Hear.) Thus, Sir, to all intents and purposes, the Orange
institution in Great Britain is an illegal combination and confede-
racy—(Hear)—Sir, I would not on any account attempt to ea-
tend the meaning of a criminal: statute, or endeavour to punish as
offenders persons who merely have violated the strict letter of the
law without acting with the criminal intention which the law
meant to punish. ilut Sir, when I read the preamble of the sta-
tute, I find its intention is to prohibit societies, whose acts are simi-
lar to those of: The Orangemen. The statute says, " Whereas
many such sotieties are composed of different divisions, branches,
or parts, which communicate with each other by secretaries, dele-
gates or otherwise, and 'by means thereof maintain an influence
over large bodies of men, and delude many ignorant and unwary
persons into the commission of acts highly criminal." Is this
not a just description of the Orange institution ?—Hear, hear.) My
lion. Friend has shown in what manner this society maintains an
influence over large bodies of men, in what manner it hss de-
luled, at Airdrie and elsewhere, many ignorant and unwary men
into the commission of acts highly criminal.—( Hear.) These
statutes, to which I nave so often referred, are not obsolete—
men arc still suffering punishment under these enactmen.s; they
hare been put in force against the poor, and the ignorant-
-1 now demand that they shall equally be put in force against
the rich and the educated. '1 he House must remember the
case of the Dorchester labourers—those unfortunate men com-
bined for the purpose of raising their wages,. which is not an
illegal act. They formed a secret association, which is not neces-
. sarily illegal. They were not initiated with religious ceremonies,
not more Profane than those of the Orangemen. Utifortur:,tely
their chief was not a prince of the Illood—unfortunatel.-i, in their
ignorance,sthey were not contented with mere eeremenies
addition they uttered certain words, which in h. court of justice
were considezed to be an oath, and for thee, ignorance they were
transported. The chiefs of the Oran,omen arc noble, rich, and
well. educated men. Their leader t, the first male subject in the
realm, net, howehcr, thank Goa,, as the Hon. Member for Dreg-
heda proposed to term him- the nearest to the throne.—( Hear.)
Mr. RANDAL I'LirelKET called the Hon. Baronet to order,
and desired him to explain the assertion he had thus made.
Sir WILLIAM. MOLESWORTH— The Hon. Member most
certainly essed the term in question, an 1 I will tell him and the
House schese. In the R pert, page 114, there is e document con-
taining these words :—•• The Orange institution is the only so-
ciety in Great Britain, which already- includes individuals of every
rank nd grade, from the nearest to the Throne to the poorest pea-
sant," &c. This document is indorsed, " Materials from the
lion. Randal Plunk:A, for an Address to the Carlton Club." I
hope th s Hon. Member's memory is refreshed.—( Hear, hear,
and a laugh.) these men have combined to preserve
abuses, they have bound themselves 'together by religious cere-
monies as solemn as any oath. For, aecording to the ritual,
when the candidate is initiated he must have the sacred Scriptures
in his hands, with the book of the rules and regulations placed
thereon; ne is commanded to study, to obey, the latter; he is re-
ceived as a member of the society under the assurance of his
sennsors that he will carry equally in his heart the laws of the in-
stitution and those of the Deity ; kneeling, he is decorated with
the Orange scarf, and he is told in the words of Scripture,
shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for a fronlet between
thine eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord brought us forth out
f rom
EgYPt• Thou shalt, therefore, keep his ordinance in his season
year to }ear.'—Esteees, see, 16-18.—(Hear.) These se-
cret signs and
pass-words are made known to him ; and in conclu-
sion the chaplain,
in joy at the coming of the new associate, with
impious mockery saith, " Glory be to God in the highest;
(Hon earth peace, good will towards men."—St. Lake ii. 14.
ear, hear.) Thus the holiest words of Scripture are pro-'
Egged, in order to enforce and sanctify obedience to the com-
mands, whatever they may be, of his Royal Highness _Prince
Ernest Augustus Duke of Cumberland._( Hear, hear.) For his
powers are illimitable, discretionary, and "absolute." To him the
" honour and welfare of this society are implicitly confided."
What that honour must be, in what that welfare must consist, all
men who have read these reports, and heard the speech of the Hon.
Member, must now be full and well aware.—( Hear, hear.) Thus
these most religious men have not hesitated to desecrate the re-
.

employingl ittlat:
ugmenanosf
ofp eeavcaedianngd
tghoecallawll
ntoorahradvse men,the bscyrup
sacred ceremonies of their creed for the vile purposes of party
e to use
fel. They have enrolled Bishops, and other cassocked priests,
whom they have commanded to attend their meetings, (Lessee
and decorated in the insignia of their holy orders ; thus to give
the semblance of a religious sanction to these their unholy mum-
meries, to these their impious mockeries.-(hear, hear, hear. )
The object of these ceremonies evidently is to impress a conviction
upon the initiated that-they are bound with all the force and Solent-
nity of an oath. The Orangeman, when initiated, is surrounded
by all the pomps of religion-the name of the Deity is invoked-
he is commanded to be obedient W the laws of the institution, and
to keep secret their signs and r,ai words-nlie kteels and vows, and
by every conceivable sir:, a'eleite'siltdges his assent to those com-
mands. Yen, I,.ty I.lLe 6rtligemen, as they never in so many word,
promi.A 'w ottc•F---fss they rvver say that they will. tcep L,,,...:;,,
the
'nglis e:sni pass words-th 4 ;Ann ti:i at their tests are not tests-
' Vilely oaths are not omns-__ha their engagements sir, VA erigage-
ments. Shell lii the casuistry by which the then, Who go boast their
reskvett for the law, attempt to evade the kW. In some respects they
bay have succeeded in evading that portion of thelaw ender which
the Dorchester labourers were punished I But in ptli'er respects, as I
have shown, they have utterly failed.-,--(Heir, heal.) The ques-
tion now is, whether the poor alone are to be punished for their il-
legal societies, whilst the rich are to be pan-tat...l. nniaWfully to
combine for evil, affil traitorously to erelllse oppre'tsiOn. The
means of crushing this institation hi Ci'reat I.lintain are nttsy ii.iii
simple i I an). perfectly mattVlinsed that eVidenen tthlit be produced
in a coe.:i of jtt tint, to prove every itie tt my assertions if the Lbw
Octeers of the Crown will ettploy the powers vested CA tlt'l'.l oy
theta 'statutes. They can, if they think jiropinn ~t..vi criminal pro-
ceedings aoaihst any per son whO hil/44i ki.nnded against these sta-
tutes 's let them promise whits th protect the witnesses, and I am
tOnvinceil many would he found amongst the members of this
institution. nhh, nosy aware of its noxious effects, would willingly
atone to their country by giving such evidence as would infallibly
convict the chiefs of this institution of a misdemeationr- for which
they may be transported.-(Hear, and laughte,.) Offences under
two of these statutes arc misdemeanors. Peers, therefore, would
not be tried by the House of Lords, but by a common jury. Let,
therefore, the law officers of the Crown present to the grand jury
of Middlesex bills of indictment against the Imperial Grand Master
the Duke of •Cumbelland---4 Hear ).----astainst the Grand Master o
England, Lord Kenyon-against the ai,irm kiteretary, Lord Chan-
dos-and to these worthies let thine not ferget to add the Right
Reverend Father in God, Thomas, Lord Bishop Of Salisbury,-
(Hear, hear, hear, and loud laaghter.) Thus, Sir, these
statutes, which were the crevititms of the sworn enemies of the
people, may now, as it wore, by a retribution of Divine Providence,
become the means bf crushing this institution-of destroying this
imperium en imperio, and of laying prostrate its chief. At his fate
none hat his followers will mourn. A feW years' residence on the
shores of the Southern Ocean-(A laugh)-would teach hini and
other titled criminals that the laws of their country are not to be
violated with impunity, and that equal justice it how to be ad--
ministered to the high and to the low.-(Loud cheers,) Thus
this institution may be crusher! in Great Britain. lam not
acquainted with the Irish Statutes, and, consequently, I can-
not affirm whether the Oeatige societies in that eonntry
are illegal or not ; but, Undoubtedly, the Honst will be grati-
fied in learning that the.whole of the geand lodge of Ireland, that
is, all the eltiefs of a society. 'night easily be transported ; fcr all
members of the grand ledge of Ireland are members of the grand
lodge of England i find the words of the statute are, "Every person
who, after the passing of this Act, shall, directly or indirectly,
maintain correspondence or intercourse with any such society," &c.
" or who shall by contribution of money or otherwise, aid, abet, or
support such society, or any members or officers thereof, as such
shall be deemed guilty of an unlawful combination or confede-
racy." Thus it is evident that any person who has attended a
meeting of the Grand Lodge of England is liable to be trans-
ported. Now 1 find recorded as present at various meetings of
the Grand Lodge, the following members of the Grand Lodge of
Ireland: -Lord Roden, Lord Thomond, Lord Longford, Lord
Cole, M.P., the Hon. Randal Plunket, M.P., Colonel Verner,
M.., Colonel Perceval, M.P., Henry Mannock, Esq., M.P.,
Anthony Lefroy, Esq., M.P. It would be sufficient to put the
laws in force against these gentlemen to destroy the Orange In-
stitution in Ireland.-(Cheers and laughter.) ' Thus, Sir, it
seems to me easy in various manners to put down these societies.
At least, let the Government adopt the advice of my Honour-
able Friend. Let them strike off the Bench every Magistrate
who is an Orangeman-(Cries of " Hear, hear")-let them dis-
miss from their employment every functionary who belongs to
those societies-(hear, hear)-let them oblige the Horse-Guards
rigidly to enforce its orders--(hear, hear)-in short, let them con-
sider the muster-roll of that society as the list of their bitterest
foes-(hear, hear)--as the catalogue of those implacable enemies
of the people's rights, to whom it would be madness for their own
sake-to whom it would be disgraceful for the people's sake-to
confide any public trust. Thus proscribed, the scciety would soon
perish ; and if the Administration have either courage or energy,
they will not hesitase long ere they strike the blow. It will be
miserable folly to conciliate the Orangemen.---(Hear.) If the
Ministers do not crush them, they will crush the Ministers-the
struggle is a mortal one.-(Hear, hear.) He who spares his foe
inflicts a wound upon himself-he who refrains from destroying will
be destroyed. The Orangemen are now in their power-let them
not hesitate one moment, but seal the doom of these noxious socie-
ties, and crush the chiefs.-(Long-continued cheering.) •
The resolutions were then read by the SPEAKER. •
Lord J. RUSSELL conceived it to be a duty on his part
to address the House as early as possible after the two
Hon-. Gentlemen who had moved and seconded the resolution,
ire order to put it in possession of the course which, as he
had given notice on a former day, it was his intention to pro-
pose. In proposing that course, he certainly felt that there
never was a question upon which it was more important to
come to a right decision-(Hear, hear) ; and that in stating
his views upon this subject, he must be considered also ns
stating the general views of the Government -upon it, who
had at different times anxiously and seriously considered it.
-( Hear, hear.) He should say on die one hand, that they
had considered it with the opinion that the societies which
had been the subject of debate that evening were mischievous
Ito the country, and-that their view ought to be to endeavour
their suppression—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
And, on the other hand, he must say that he approached the
subject with no such feeling as that which he understood his
Hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall to recommend them
to entertain-namely, a feeling that tnose who were the heads
and formed the phalanx of the Orange societies were the
bitter enemies of the present Administration. .He wished to
consider those societies as they affected the peace and well-
being of the country, the due authority of the Government, and
the proper administration of justice. If he should find
grounds sufficient to warrant him in considering them detrimental
to these objects, he thought be was entitled to ask the support
not only of those who considered that it might be advantage-
ous to strike a blow against the enemies of the present Admi-
nistration, but of those who, feeling opposed and hostile to it,
would still regard those general ends he had mentioned as pa-
ramount to all considerations of party--( Cheers)-and as
equally binding upon their side, as well as upon his, in the pre-
sent discussion. In treating of this
.patter, he felt it necessary
to say at the outset, that he would not enter upon any part
of the subject of those papers and that correspondence
which the Hon. Member for Middlesex had produced to the
House ; and as this was the first time he had ever heard of
them, lie would think himself justified in withholding any
declaration of opinion upon their contents. Stated as these
had been by the Hon. Member with such minuteness and such
excellent arrangement, he would confess that there was enough
in that matter to require serious consideration.-4 Hear, hear.)
But he thought 'he should not be in any way justified in pro-
nouncing an opinion with regard to'the extracts and the re-
sults of the correspondence. He should confine himself,
therefore, to that which had appeared on a former occasion in
evidence before a Committee of the House, to that which was
declared in the resoluticns of the House read at the commence-
ment of the debate, and to that which was notorious to all who
took an interest in public events. He then said that he consi-
dered by far the most importart! part of the question relating to
political societies to be that portion of it which concerned
Ireland. And having attended as carefnlly as he could do
when public attention was first drawn to it, and since that
time to the whole body of evidence adduced, and particularly
to the statements made by those who were members and great
officers of the Orange lodges, without at present inquiring
what their motives might be, or at all intending to cast any
imputation or, what they declared to be their motives, he must
say, he thought the effect of those societies had been injurious
to the good government of Ireland. He thought that by the
existeect of societies of this kind, arranged in bands, following
no recognized or lawful authorities but their own leaders, and
holding it to be a part of their duty to enter into warfare and
dissension at their command, whether founded upon religion
or not, a distinction was Made between them and some other
part of the King's subjects, who formed themselves into coun-
ter societies with other names and distinctions, and a perpetual
and ever-recurring source of' disunion, disaffection, quarrels,
and bloodshed, was ereated.-(Cheers.) He thought it an
evil of those societies, where men of the lowest order were
brought into conjunction with men of the highest, that the
forme‘- Were taught to look to those who were high in authority
in the society as the leaders to whom they ought to render
n'oedience, instead of to the Crown, and the depositories in
which the trust of the Crown was placed. The natural alle-
giance of the subject was weakened, in so far as to have two
heads and two sovereigns instead of one- ( Hear)-and while
the one received only that general and abstract deference
which led to no results, to the other was united that combina-
tion of party passion and sectarian feeling, as it might be
in this case, which rendered the obedience paid to the one
sluggish and p :ssive, while that paid to the other was certain
and active. Ile held it to be an evil inherent in those societies,
for lie was speaking now of their natural constitution, that Le•
ing thus supported by their own leaders, they clung to their
party feelings, and party animosities, in despite of the supre-
macy of the law. -So obstinate were their party feelings, that
even if a case was brought into a court of justice, it was not
decided by its own merits, but the members of these societies
regarded only the circumstance of the prosecution being in-
stituted by or against an Orangeman. In this way a feeling
was introduced most hostile and injurious to an unbiassed
course of justice. He very much regretted that the Hon.
Member for Middlesex should have spoken with a disrespect
which he was far from deserving of a Nobleman on whose au-
thority he very much relied, for confirming the impression ho
had received with respect to this subject, who, although he
was not related to him ( Lord J. Russell) by party ties, was a
boson of that sense, prudence, and moderation, that lie
ght he had been with perfect justice recommended to
fill the office of Lord Lieutenant of a county. (The Noble
Lord here sunk his voice so low as to be nearly inaudible.) He
proceeded to read an extract of a letter from the Earl of Cale-
don, the Nobleman to whom he alluded, to Cols:lel Verner,
denying the right of any party who leagued themselves toge-
therppou she intdi o
nao
ofpf o
mIl irteei
len, aml
dos
,of e i
different
statingitfryetroe
nt call
habits aaltl
the
coa themselvesnrdangwteha they bs Po
drooyf t ewtshtaiasnnkct
ionpi
ngo
--
some disposed to maintain the laws, and
-others to defy'
their authority, and expressing a belief that all the party as-
sociations were dangerous to the peace of the empire and per-
nicious to good order, and that those members of them in-
clined to uphold the laws had not the power to do so. The
Noble Lord then read some extracts from the evidence of the
Earl of Caledon before the Committee on Orange Lodges to
the same effect, and objecting to them as tending to give to in-
dividuals a power and eminence unknown to th constitution.
This was the opinion of a man certainly not of extreme liberal
opinions, generally supporting those opposed to him (Lord

t. Russell) in plitics, but taking a calm and impartial view
if society in the North of Ireland, where he resided. Such
'tying his ( Lord J. Russell's) view of this and similar in.
eitetions—cons'dering them as injurious .to the peace of
society, as weakening the authority of the Crown, as very
much infringing the supremacy of the law, and likewise as
as subversive of that religious harmony which might otherwise
ercvail, he declared freely that his object would be, if possible,
to rid himself of all associations of that peculiar character,
►hether known as Orange or Riband societies, or by any other
name..—( Cheers from both sides of the House:) But in viewing
this question as a matter of State, they had 410 tU COnsider the
various obstacles which might s•eee =
this object,
• and 41.. in the way of effecting
method upon the whole best calculated to
...ere it. There might, be Pe penarelliieeevere tak.
ing teeSKPS th.t ligqi; be.l.!'ef'del viumpt, and
energetic, hitt which; Se fai• from destroying the flame of
these associations, would but raise it, higher—Oleas, hear,
from the Opposition benches)--Weilld but stir it up to
aright which it Would not naturally hOtee attained, and, instead
of utterly eititeill4,l;her it, would produce tl fiercer and more
conseetilig blaze-. Let the Muss consider the pridpcieals which
the lion. Membei for C'brtiliali. iii Stiati6 upon this subject.
He stated thVe'e, loeing the clearest pesSible; the
they might
be so to hie utidetetan4itigeee-(Laugliter tile Opposition,
and cheers frerii the tide.) \ v hea he said this, he
kneW kikai i4.‘!ttlY Men as zealous and loyal as he, and deeply
'versed in the law, entertained the same oPinietts as his Hon.
Friend. Ile certainly Was very far from intending any reflec-
tion upon the Hon. Gentleman, but he had expressed himself
as it there could not be the least room for doubt on the sub-
ject. A report had been made last year by the Committee on
Orange Lodges, which stated that it teas not necessary to
enact new laws against them, but that the existing statutes, it
put in execution, would be quite adequate for the total sup-
p ession of such associations. They (Ministers) had consi-
dered it their deity to ascertain what view of the subject would
be taken by the law officers of the Crown, and he had thought
it right, instead of putting the question in a particular light on
a subject of such vast importance, to see his Hon. and Learned
Friend the Attorney-General, and converse with him generally
on all its bearings. The impression upon his mind, after all
that his Hon. Friend had stated, was, that the question
whether these societies were legal was one of very great
doubt. His Hon. Friend said, that without looking most care-
fully at the whole subject, he could not venture absolutely to
pronounce an opinion as to their legality or illegality, and the
Solicitor-General took a similar view of the case. The Go.
vernMent, therefore, were of opinion that if the severe penal
statutes already in force did not contain clear enactments
against this offence, it was not proper for them to seek to find
some meaning in the law which would be construed by others,
and probably y men of eminence at the bar, into a straining of
the provisions of the law, and would make it doubtful whether
they had not forced the meaning of an enactment in order to
procure a condemnation of the societies in question. Even if
they had been able to discover, that although the Orange so-
cieties had contrived to evade the law in some.points, they had
yet contravened it in others, and could have thus obtained a
conviction against them, he thought it would be mischievous
to the general liberty of the subject to attempt giving a strained
interpretation.—(Hear, hear, hear.) At the same time, he
certainly had heard nothing from his Hon. and Learned
Friend which could induce him to believe that these associa-
tions had the sanction of the law. As far as he (Lord J.
Russell) could follow his argument, he must say, without at-
tempting or presuming to form any opinion on the subject, that
the point seemed to be one of very considerable difficulty.
The taking of oaths illegal by the statute 39 George 111. they
had dispensed with ; secret signs and symbols were not legal,
as had been established by precedents (the Noble Lord was
very indistinctly heard here) : but it appeared by the opinions
given by Sir W. Hall and Lord Gifford, that the Orange so-
cieties did not come within the meaning of the law in 1822, and
therefore, if they came within the terms of any act at the pre-
sent, it must be by some recent change in their constitution.
Now, if they were considered legal in 1822 by great authorities,
and if without any real and substantial mutation some merely
formal change had taken place, which rendered them amenable
had
take
upon
the
mentioned
ltiLab ae liberty
toy thec coa casefsioa nl
l. ou fd the
Atnti
Dorchester
to the penalties of law, he should certainly be averse to putting
the question on a point so nice and on such narrow ground.
Thet otrhe
ehHecosont
course
rr
sl) lleaepbmou
übr
pursued
foreriH
b Cornwallye
would
Government
that time trades' unions existed in great numbers, and in the
metropolis itself not less than 30,000 of them marched through
the streets in procession for a particular purpose. There were
extensive branches of these bodies in the country, and most of
them were believed to have taken an oath which brought them
within the meaning of the law. The question came before
Lord Grey's Government, and he stated, in resigning office,
that he had great satisfaction in finding that the unions had
nearly ceased, although no steps had been taken either
rigidly to enforce existing statutes, or to pass new laws
against them. It was, therefore, the opinion of Lord
Grey's Administration that the proper method of dealing
with associations of that character was by immediately in-
stituting proceedings against them in courts of law. In the
case of the Dorchester labourers the prosecution was not un-
dertaken by the Government, but by magistrates in the
country, on account of disturbances in a particular locality.
It only remained for the Government to consider whether,
a conviction having ensued, and sentence having been
passed, it was expedient to make any change in it-:_a ques-
tion totally different from the general policy of Govern-
ment with respect to the unions in general. IF, then, it
were not expedient for the Government to strain the
existing statutes bearing upon Orange Lodges, or to apply
them to those cases, even if it were possible, was it ad-
visable to propose a new ,law on the subject? The opinion of
the Government certainly was, that it was not advisable.—
(Hear.) He believed that if they were to attempt carrying a
Bill through Parliament to suppress them forcibly, they
would find, that although they might get rid of the secret
signs and of the distinctive marks at present in use, yet some
other evasion of the law would succeed. His Hon. Friend,
the Member for Middlesex, had proposed that every person
officially employed under the Crown, and belonging to this
Society, should be dismissed from his situation, and that every
judge who was a member of it should be removed from the
bench. Now, the intation of the law certainly was, that the
Crown should have the power of removing any judge. If the
Houses of Parliament should convince themselves that a par-
ticular judge was unworthy to remain in his office, it was then
necessary for them to address the Crown for his removal. He
thought, therefore, that this general way of addressing. the
Crown, without entering into the case ref each particular indi-
vidual affected, was scarcely consistent with the independence
of the bench.--(Hear, hear.) He came now to the question
as to the propriety of removing at once every magistrate and
person in office belonging to the Orange Societies, and he should
view it with reference to what be had stated to be his object--
the suppression of these associations. He could not but think
that those magistrates in Ireland who had belonged to these
societies, and who had entered it, as be believed, with the
conviction that it was intended to secure the Protestant inte-
rest in that country, if they should be removed at once by an
address of this kind, without any previous declaration, either
from the House of Commons or the Crown, would conceive
such a stigma affixed to them, that they would still remain
banded together from a spirit of resentment, and would re-
gard the measure only as an unfair and biassed transaction.—
( Hear, hear.) The course they had hitherto pursued was this :
they had much correspondence with the Lord-Lieutenantsof
Ireland upon this subject. Though there had been many per-
sons members of Orange Lodges, and very offensive to his
Government, yet they had not thought proper to remove those
individuals for that cause; but at the same time they thought,
and he was himself disposed to adopt this course, that where
a person applied for any official situation of trust and respon-
sibility under the Crown, inquiry should be made whether he
were an Orangeman, and if he meant to continue in that so.
ciety, that his appointment should not take place. He thought
it was the right of the Crown, when a trust was to be reposed
in any person, to satisfy itself that he should fulfil the condi-
tions required for discharging in He certainly should be of
opinion that an individual who paraded in a great Orange pro-
cession in a market-town of Ireland was not a fit person for
any such situation. To show, however, tire spirit which pre-
vailed among many persons holding a high station in Ireland,
and the view which the Loral-Lieutenant and many Noble
Lords entertained on this point, he- would take the liberty
of reading to the House two letters out of a correspondence
which passed between Lords Dunsany and Morpeth rela-
tive to a Mr. Smith, who was recommended for the post of
a Deputy-Lieutenant. The Noble Lord then read the fol-
lowing letters

it Dunsany Castle, Dee. 27, 1834,
My Lord,—.l received your Lord hip's letter of the 26th inst.
, this day. In your former letter you asked me Whether Mr. Henry
Smith geld as, ()Mee in an Orange Society. I answered that I had
, no means of ascertaining, not belonging to it myself. My Joni
Mr. Plunkett, was then in the county of Kilkenny ; he is noit
generally
with me, and informs me that Mr. Henry Smith no longer holds
the office mention, but Another replaced hint abdut a year agd,
As to Lib being an Orangeman, I suppose he is,as lie
' held office, and so are probably half the magistrates iii the glly
(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial beticlies)—and if to, they are tIW more watchful of the evil designs of the Ribbandmen, of whom a
:large majority of the labouring classes ate composed;
" I have the honour, Ptii4SANf,"
He (Lord John Russell) considered this letter as a prdof
of
the distorted views which men of irreproachable chaikhie td,jh
of this subject, The answer' of Lord Morpeth was dated the
99th of December, and Was as follows
"My Lord,—As your Lordship, hi your letter dothe 2iitL ii d.
stant, in recommending Mr. Henry Smith, states that yon suppose
him still to be an Orangeman, and as it is his Excelleney'sinteriL
tion not knowingly to make any more appoitittniiffig ittemneri
that society—(Cheers from the Irish Opposition Members)—his
Excellency must therefore repeat, that unless Mr. Smith denies
his connexion with it, or signifies his intention OtWitlicliatking fromit, he must decline to nominate him dePtity-lietitenant. for the
County of Bleath.—( Hear.) His Excellency cannot Close this
correspondence without expressing his most entire and utiqilalifiiid
dissent from the opinion which appears to be CtitiVeyed in the latter
part of his Lordships letter, that magistrates, by becoming Orange-
men, are thereby more fit to watch the designs of Ilibba.ndmen.-
(Hear, hear.) Should such designs ekist to the extent and
amongst the persons your Lordship duppoles, hit E*Oelleiter
will look alone for their suppression to the open and impartial
cipc' harge of their duty by the magistrates as such, and not to
tffeir connexion with Orange institutions."—(Loud cheers. )
Now, such (continued the Noble Lord) was the view in which
the present Government and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
took of their duty in respect to this society. He did not put in
the same class the Ribbandmen mentioned by Lord Dunsany;
when it was found that the society of Ribbandmen acted against
the law, means should be taken for their suppression ; but there
was a difference to be observed between the two societies
Whilst the Ribbandmen consisted of persons (without adoptin;
the proportion of Lord Dunsany) of the labouring, da-- 0.
for there was no person in the situation of Me,-
hament, or of Lo-d Lieutenant of a count

-.4uer of Par-
corn.priecl io the
_. hlgh§attons belonged

association of Ribbandmen—persory
to the other society, and
best counterpoise to ^

_rpear g 4 tp think that it was the
e 4013 Societies. So that tha Lord Lieu-

enact and the present Government thought it their duty,
.when cases came before them where pet.eotis Were tecom-
mended for appointments, to abstain from making those ap-
mintments, when the persons ,recommended belonged to
Orange code' e, 4e,el ii,!ldeeeiniede Vikire tberehy,se; far tainted
is to have a tendency towards those societies, Witilgt the duty
a magistrate Was id act itripietially towards all classes of
society. Then lia iiaf Prep4redetd Say that it was not only
convenient to adopt meastiee§ di 1116Cdtiragrrient in respect to
those societies, but he thought, when, their nature was so com-
pletely unydicd s tr.; confiniried ,in ,the opinion of liberal
'"'" • 441()1 tfiddnalle dititinieh - and he
every parry, tney
Was prepared to add to these discOuragemenis igh;ther dis-
couragement of an address to his Majesty by this House.—
( Hear:) He should pot be prepared at once to say that he
'could agec,,e tet MI iteett-eft /11$ ,:lialegy tetneoee,persons from
,
the situations they held without some mote friar
.e?tid its ded
allegations against them; but he thOught that if this House
came to the opinion that those societies Were mischievous, and
were to address tile dratiei td dist:vitt-0e such societies, and
the sanction of the CroWn Was obtained td That address, he
thought the pTisen§ iii ,high siitiations belonging td those so-
cieties would ne ptddedhid different eletiation:—(llear hoar.)
Not only would those mist:ins who nethigt'd td 07ange so-
cieties; and who Weri.i Mernbeit et that House and of the other
House of Parliament, „in high Situations in Ireland,
but the person alluded to by the Hon. farl'ertlY.4 for, Drogheda,
as nearest the throne,—that illustrious Prince, wheil!!:?. !Dom
the sentiments of tiftit Ildosg, and when those sentiments had
received his Majesty's sanction—he and Other Members of the
Society would take a different view of their duty—(hear)—
and whatever ends they might propose to themselves from the
establishment of' Orange institutions, they would not be so in-
different to the welfare of' the country as to resist an opinion so
solemnly pronottneed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He (Lord
J. Russell) would Say but a few words More in respect to the
general bearing of' the question. He did not know whether
they ought to be surprised at the existence of these societies,
and others of' a .sirtiihrr 011tieatto' in Ireland. The .o'll arose
from the anomaly_ which nothing COW lirefdnt,the state of
things when William 111. ascended the throne of these tealms,
who was welcomed ley a great majority of the people or Eng-
land and Scotland. Yet in Ireland his power rested on—
first, force of arms, and secondly, the energy and zeal of a
minority of the people. That minority was supported by
laws of a harsh and unequal nature ; but when that majority
in number grew in strength, and wealth, and intellect, it
claimed, as was natural, and as it was right it should claim,
an equal participation in power.--( Hear, hear.) But it was
impossible that that equal participation could take place
without offending the prejudices, and alarming the fears,
and destroying the power, of those who had held the mo-
nopoly of Government under Great Britain In Ireland. They
resolved to resist these inroads, and TeCOLIM tats had to
combination, union, and secresy ; and by combination and
union they were able to maintain a part of that power which
they were called upon to resign. Hence arose societies
of a secret and exclusive and religious nature; but be (Lord
J. Russell) thought they might come to the opinion of
Lord Calcdon, that these separate societies would soon dis-
solve, and all would resort together to the temple of the
law.—( Hear.) He was bound to say that to Protestant,
and Roman Catholic, and Presbyterian, and any other dif-
ferent religious faith, the British constitution and the laws
of the kingdom afforded sufficient protection: If the Mi-
nisters of the Crown were negligent of their duty if they
did not give sufficient protection, both Protestant and Catho-
lic might complain to Parliament, which would visit with its
displeasure any Minister who should have denied or neglected
to afford protection to any one.—(Hear.) If the Judges, who
were bound to administer the law equally, did not do ther duty,
application might be made to Parliament and to the Crown for
a remedy. He, therefore, entreated all parties no longer to
rely on this false and inadequate protection, which made men,
and the best men, subject to the vilest adventurers—( Loud
cheering from the Opposition)--but to remove a power which
the good and vim uoul intended for good and virtuous purposes—
( Cheering as before; and to rely on the Constitution of the
country for justice. With this view he should move an address
which he had framed in the humble, but at the same time earnest
hope, that it might prove a measure conducing to the tranquil-
lity of a part of the country, and to the future welfare of the
whole. The Noble Lord (who concluded amidst prolonged
cheering) then moved, " That an humble address be presented
to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would be graciously
pleased to take such measures as to his Majesty seemed advis-
able for the effectual discouragement of Orange Lodges, and
generally all political societies, excluding persons of different
faith, using signs and symbols, and acting by associated branches."
Mr. W. PATTEN, as the Chairman of the Committee on
Orange Lodges, wished to express the great pleasure heliad de-
rived from the speech of the Noble Lord. To show how nearly
their opinions coincided, he would read the amendment it was his
intention to have proposed :—" That an humble address be pre-
sented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would be graciously
pleased to take such steps as may be deemed desirable to discourage
all political societies, excluding persons of different religious faith,
using signs and symbols, and acting by affiliated branches." He
was of opinion that the resolution should be as genera) as possible.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD next rose. In justice, he said, to the
Orange body, it was due to them to state that they were good and
loyal subjects when not under the influence of erroneous im-
pressions. When first constituted the society was in close
connection with the Government, to which it was bound by
an unity of feeling and of interest.—( Hear, hear.) This
continued up to the accession of his late Majesty George
the Fourth, who was desirous of discouraging the association,
and advised them to give up the public expression of their feelings
by symbols and processions. This advice they treated with disre-
spect, finding that they had the Magistrates and authorities on their
side. When the authorities flew in the face of the Government,
how could they be looked upon as good subjects ? Something was
necessary to be done to remedy the evils occasioned by these Socie-
ties. With regard to what had been said respecting Trades' Unions,
he would only say that their exhibitions never exceeded those of the
Orange Society.
Mr. MAXWELL said, that the grand committee at Dublin
had placed at the disposal of the House all its books and docu-
ments, and had directed that all the rules and passwords should
be revealed to the committee of this House, and that the fullest
information should be afforded.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He
(Mr. Maxwell) had no objection to make to the committee
as to the numbers on . each side ; there were 14 against, and
13 for them (the Orange party.) He did not object to some
of the gentlemen but he did object to others. There were
five Roman Catholics, and every one of them was a lawyer; four
had been distinguished members of the Catholic Association—
(Hear, hear,)—and the only individual of' that number who was
not a member of that association was the Attorney-General for
Ireland. Two were gentlemen who were distinguished members of
the Irish bar ; one of them, before the examination of any witness,
declared that the object of the committee was to condemn Orange-
men, thus showing that his mind was made up and prejudiced against
Orangemen. The Hon. Member then 'proceeded to point out
a variety of objections to the proceedings of the committee.
He treated with contempt the charges made against the Orange.
body, as if they wished to alter the succession to the throne._
With the misconduct of the English Orangemen he had nothing
whatever to do; the English Orange body and that in Ireland had no-
thing in common, beyond the circumstance that the Duke of Cumber-
lanewas at the head of both. That illustrious personage had been
represented as the irresponsible head of the Orange body ; but all
he (Mr. Maxwell) could say was, that the Illustrious Duke was
not the irresponsible head of the Irish Orangemen.—( Ulcers. )
The Illustrious Duke had no more power over that body than he
( Mr. Maxwell) had—(Hear, hear)—and he himself possessed no
more than the most common member of that body.—( Cheers. )
Mr. FINN said a few words, which we could not hear, in de-
fence, as we understood, of the conduct of the Committee.
Colonel VERNER repudiated the absurd idea that the Orange
bosly contemplated. or were attempting to bring about, any. change
in the succession to the throne. The Princess Victoria might rely
as unhesitatingly on the loyalty of the Orangemen as upon any.of
the Protestants of the realm—(Cheers)—and if the day ever did
arrive when the throne or the succession were endangered, Orange-
men would be found among the foremost to spend the last drop of
their blood to maintain and support her just rights. All that he
wanted was, that the question should be submitted to the test of a
fair and impartial investigation, which it certainly had not yet met
with.—(Loud cries of " Question, question.")
Colonel PERCEVAL believed it now impossible that any
Orangeman could for a moment think of averting the address to his
Majesty to discountenance all secret associations, and in that feeling
he would imitate the example of hit Hon. Friend near him, and
inculcate on those with whom he had been connected now
some years, to submit to the expressed will of hie Majesty,
which to them was tantamount to law, and to succumb
to the opinion which the House was about to express. He trusted
the Noble Lord would consent to withdraw the words " Orange
Societies," forming, as they did, only a part of the secret societies
in Ireland.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !" from the Ministerial
side.) He concurred in most of what had fallen from the
Noble Lord, but he differed from Islet in thinking that
Orange Associations were formed to support Protestant ascen-
dancy, arid that ribawlmen or defenders arose out of those 53,0..
ciations. Having said thins much, he would only repeat to the
Noble Lord his earnest hope that he worrier v.?n-,ent to make the
alteration to which he had already referred, in the Wording of the
rUselLitiOn in ennsideration of the feeling in which the spirit of that
resolution WaS Met by those who were connected with Orange So-
cieties at that. (the Opposition) eichi of the House.—(Cheers. )
Loud cries of " Question," in the midst Of Whieli
Ldrd ATAYLEY rose—lle was so much afraid to Italie rite of a
Nellie!) might disturb the harmony that pervaded
the koiiSe, that lie fitiktelee arisen if he could resist the temp-
tation to congratulate his Nutol§ Piiaci (Lord J. Russell) at the
triumph he had obtained by the mild, quiet, pitklenti and states-
-digit-like tone lie had assumed on this occasion.—( Lot! Cheers.)
He (1..0rd Stanley) bogged to congratulate his Noble Friend attcl
hit 314,etty't Ooiertiniefit cm the great triumph he had thus
achieved. As :Pi eld sinfiefely attached friend, he congratu-
lated his noble friend on if, and he also ethigtotal.ated the Govern-
ment on the great accession of strength it had that tictittirq, and
On We meener in which it had been acquired.—(Hear, Reef.)
Id eitpreesiiit iditiration of the prudent course taken by his
Nettle Friend t perpose of putting down all secret as-
sociations in fiettilj lie must riot withhold that meed of
praise which he was sure their molt bitty eifeiniee would concede to
the gallant and manly conduct in which the conciliiitOry tone of his
Ndble Friend had been met by Hon. Members at that (the Oppoi=
tide) side tit the liettr.,—(Cheers.) At the same time he
felt cOnfineed that his Noble Friend would do justice to his
(Lord Stahleie) Hdritititable and Gifilent Friends near him for
tleir willingness thtts to respond to his conciliatory tone by the
sacrifice of early prejudices. HIE Hoff: and Gallant Friends would
excuse him for calling them prejudices lent he did so think
then-to though at the same time he firmly believed that they were
end edneeientiously entertained.—(l-fele, hear.) 'lt
was impossible for any one to doubt from what had occurred with
respect to Orange associations in the last session of Parliament,
that they were most pointedly included in the *irk of the pre-
sent resolution, and that that would have been the understanding
with respect to them whethee they had been mentioned by name
or not. lie would, therefore, ask his Honourable Friend whe-
ther he was not prepared, by way of completing his triumph, to
omit those words which could not add to the moral force of his re-
solutien, but which might have the effect of weakening the in-
fluence of those by whose co-operation that resolution might be ren-
dered most available for its intended object.—(Cries of " Oh, oh,"
from the Ministerial side.) Gentlemen who cried " Oh," had a
different idea of a Ministerial triumph from himself. He was sure his
Noble Friend had not meant by using these words to cast any
imputation. He was sure the resolution was so understood by gen,:
tlemen of that (the Opposition) side. But the same feeling woutd
not be found to exist amongst the less informed brethren. It wall
on these grounds that he earnertly hoped his Noble Friend would I