The Sun.
London, England, 1836-03-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 12, 1826.

Mr. P. M. STE WA RT thought this Bill gave very great
privileges, and it would be impossible for any other company
to compete with it. If, however, the objectionable clauses
were to be struck out in Committee, he would
not oppose the second reading. But it would only be on the
distinct understanding that the only additional powers to be
given to this Committee were, that partners being Members of
Parliament should not hinder the Company from forming con-
tracts for the conveyance of the mails. Yet he would conscnt
to the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. GIL LON thought that a very unjust monopoly was
intended to be established by this Bill. It was proposed to add
large additional powers to those which had been formerly given.
There was no saying how far this system of legislation should
be carried.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord MO RPETH said it was well known that this Com.
piny had performed very great and signal_ services, and this he
thought a sufficient reason to extend to them an opportunity
for future exertions. Any clauses that were objectionable
might be altered or removed in Committee. On these grounds
he asked the House to consent to the second reading.
Colonel CONOLLY could bear testimony to the great'
services performed by this Company, and the effect of this Bill
would be to call forth all their resources, and to enable then
to make still greater exertion. Ireland was much indebted to
this Company. It had established a railroad between Dublin
and the se; and it intended to carry on the work to the
Shannon.

Mr. F. FRENCH said that this was not an attempt to
establish a monopoly for Ireland, but it was a monopoly that
was sought by Scotland. He would support the second
reading.
After a few words from Lord SANDON,

Mr. CALLAGHAN said there were some clauses in the
Bill to which he was much opposed. If he could hope they
would be expunged in the Committee, he would be most
sorry to oppose a Bill which any one said would be good for
Ireland.

The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap-
peared,
For the second reading ...
Against it
Majority
•
CARLOW ELECTION.

Mr. R. COLBORNE was then called upon and brought
up the Report of the Committee upon the affairs of
the Carlow Election. There were general cries of
" Read, read." The Report was then read by the Clerk
at the table. After reciting the terms of the appoint-
ment of the Committee, it went on to state:—" That
it appeared to the Committee that the subject divided
itself into two heads—first, the contract between Mr. O'Con-
nell and Mr. Raphael, and secondly, the sum alleged to have
been paid from one party to the other ; and they felt it to be
their duty to draw the attention of the House very briefly to
these two points. It appeared that Mr. O'Connell addressed a
letter dated June 5, 1835, which contained an agreement for
the payment of 2,0001. The Committee cannot help observ-
ing, that the whole tone and tenor of that letter was
calculated to excite much suspicion and animadversion ;
but upon a very careful investigation of what had pre-
viously taken place between Mr. Raphael, Mr. Tyrrell,
Mr. Vigors, and others of the county of Carlow, they
felt bound to add that it was proved to their satisfaction that
Mr. O'Connell had acted on this occasion at the express
desire of Mr. Raphael—( Hear, hear, hear)—and was
only the medium of communication between Mr. Vigor:, and
others in the County of Carlow, and Mr. Raphael.
It appeared that the money was paid to Mr. O'Con-
nell's general account at his bankers in London, but was
repaid the moment it was called for—some part of it in
Bills, but the discount was allowed, and therefore the
Committee were of opinion that uo charge of a pecu-
niary character could be attached to Mr. O'Connell.—( Hear. )
It appeared also that this money was expended under the
direction of Mr. Vigers and others in the county of Carlow ;
and the Committee see no reason to question the legality
of the manner in which the money was expended."
Mr. R. COL B 0 RNE,in moving that the reportbe received,
said that this was the report of the Committee agreed to without
any sacrifice of principle or sacrifice of opinion. He was
anxious to make this statement, because it cannot fail to have
its due weight with that House and the country. It would also
prove that eleven gentlemen differing in political opinions can
lay aside party feelings when called upon to perform a duty of so
serious and important a character as that in which the Committee
were engaged. If that House and the country at
large would consider the evidence with the same feeling as
they had done, they must arrive at the same conclusion.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved the Order of the
Day, and made some observations which were inaudible in the
gallery.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN asked a question respecting the
extension of an Act (the name of which was not heard in the
gallery) to Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that the Act would only ex-
tend to England and Scotland.
CLEAVE'S CASE.:
Mr. WAKLEY wished to ask if what he had beard to-day
was true, namely, that Mr. Cleave had been sent to Totten-
ham-fields Bridewell, and excluded from all communi-
cation with his relatives and friends.—( Hear, hear.)
He was placed in the prison dress and put on what
was called the silent system. He (Mr. Wakley) wished to
know if such was the case, and whether the regulations of the
prison justified such treatment? He hoped the Attorney-
General would state under what Act of Parliament the con-
viction took place.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was ignorant of the tran-
saction, nor did he know under what Act the conviction took
place. If the Hon. Member had given notice of his inten-
tion to ask the question, he would be prepared to answer it.
Mr. WAKLEY said he would renew his question on Mon-
day, and he trusted the Right Hon. the Attorney-General
would be prepared on the subject.
MARRIAGE BILL.

Dr. BOWRING gave notice that in Committee on the
Marriate Bill he should move that the number of householders
necessary to sign certificates be reduced from '2O to 10, and the
fees from fit to 21.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

On the motion of Lord. J. RUSSELL, the House at its
rising agreed to adjourn to Monday.
CORPORATION OF LONDON.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to a question from Mr. Wilks,
said he had not yet received the report of the Comm issioners ap-
pointed to inquire into the affairs of the Corporation of Lon-
don ; but he expected to receive it almost immediately, and of
course as soon as he received it it should be laid on the table
of the House.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in answer to a question from
Sir Wm. Rae, said he had not yet received the report of the
Church of Scotland Endowment Commission, but he had
received private information that the Repert might be ex-
pected immediately.
WILLS.

In reply to a question from Mr. AGLIONBY,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that the Bill, com-
monly known as the Will Bill, would originate in the other
House, the present Master of the Rolls having consented to
undertake the charge of it during its progress.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

reply to a question from Mr. HUME,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL on Monday next should
be able to state positively whether this Bill would originate
in the other House of Parliament. If it did not, he should
certainly introduce it into that House without delay.__( Hear.)

the number in the War-office alone, to 133.—(Hear, hear. )
Without troubling the House with the details of the sub-
sequent years, lie would merely state that in the beginning
of February, in the present year, the whole number of per-
sons employed in transacting that business which 20 years
ago occupied 215 persons, was reduced to 51, and the
charge of the War-office alone was reduced from 71,245/. to
47,603/. per annum. For these reductions he, of course,
could claim no credit. As lie should afterwards have no occa-
sion to ask the House to sanction certain superannuated allow-
ances to old officers, he thought it right to make them ac-
quainted with the extent of the reductions effected. With
reference to the division of the estimates, and the separa-
tion of the efflctive from the non-effective service, he had
only to remark that in the latter a still greater reduction had
been effected; the amount of which he hoped would be aug-
mented by every successive year of peace and tranquillity.
The -House would, probably, recollect that shortly after he
came into office he obtained a vote of 7,6091. to affird an in-
crease of pay to general officers receiving less than 400/. year
each. This vote had been already covered by the casualties
that had taken place, and the estimates in this respect were,
therefore,_ restored to their former condition. The general re-
sult of the whole estimates was a diminution of charge erro-
neously stated in the estimate as amounting to 96,536/.. but
which amounted in reality to 93,0121. The propriety of ef-
fecting a strict separation of the services, in the charge for the
extraordinary expenses of the army, had occupied a great deal
of the attention of his Right Hon. Friend the President of the
Board of Trade, when he was in the War-office, but no definitive
arrangement was come to until the spring of last year, when the
Treasury (during the Administration of the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite) issueda minute directing that the separation should
be effected, as far as possible. Hitherto, as many Hon. Gen-
tlemen were doubtless aware, a variety of services of a strictly
ordinary nature, which formed a part of the regular expense
of the army, had been entirely defrayed out of the army cx-
traordinaries. The most important of these was the charge
for the provisions of troops in the colonies. As this charge,
when it had been defrayed by the commissariat, was set down
together with that for the current expenses of the Ordnance
and the provisions of the Convict Establishment, it was im-
possible to state its precise amount at present, but after further
experience there was no doubt that in a future year—probably
not in the next—it might be reduced to a strict matter of ac-
count. There were other charges of a similar description,
including that for military labourers, which was a regular and
constant charge, amounting to 7,900/. a year, transferred to
the present estimates; the whole amount of which was
173,088/. This was the amount of tho apparent increase in
the estimates, but there was in reality a diminution of 93,0004
There was another improvement which had been effected.
The divisicn between the British and Irish establishments was
found to be very defective, and furnished no sufficient infor-
mation to the House. It was, therefore, proposed that the
whole business should be transacted by means of a general
pay-office. He should be most happy to afford any further
explanation in his power to any Hon. 3lember who might re-
quire it in the course of the debate. He begged, in conclu-
sion, to move that 81,390 men constitute the land force of the
United Kingdom and colonies.
Mr. HUME was sorry to see so little interest excited when
the House was called upon to vote away a large sum of
money (there were only about 100 Members in the House.)
Although he (Mr. Hume) had on the preceding evening voted
fur the postponement of a question for the taking off 120,0001.
of a tax—he had only done so because he thought it would be
better to postpone that particular question until the entire
subject was regularly brought under the consideration of the
House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With respect to
the vote moved by the Noble Lord, he (Mr. Hume) could see
no reason why so large a force should be kept up in this
country. He, for one, was really at a loss to ascertain how it
was that under a Liberal Government our standing army
should consist of ten or twelve thousand men more than it
did under what was regarded as an extravagant—which was
a Tory Government.—(A laugh, and " hear, hear.") In 1822,
our army consisted of 68,800 men ; of 1823, of 69,000 ; in
1824, of 73,000 ; in 1825, of 86,000 ; in 1826 and 1827 it
was the same; in 1828 it was 90,000 ; in 1829, of 89,000; in
1830, of 80,000 ; in 1831, of 88,000 ; and in 1832 and 1833 of
89,000. Here was a gradual increase in the amount of our
army, from the time of the Tory Government of 1822, and
some subsequent years, to the present rule of the Liberal
Whig Administration. He called upon all those flonOlem-
hers who were anxious to alleviate the burdens of the country
to join him in endeavouring to obtain a reduction of the
number of the army. One of the reasons which he (Mr.
Hume) had assigned in justification of voting one million to
the Irish Church, was, that it would enable his Majesty's Go-
vernment to diminish the number of the army. He regretted
to see there was no disposition on the part of his Majesty's
Government to carry this desirable reduction into effect.
Ireland was at the present moment a complete garrison, al-
though in a state of the most profound peace.—( Hear, hear.)
It had been asserted a few evenings since, by a Noble Lord
in another place, that he never remembered Ireland in the
enjoyment of such perfect tranquillity. That assertion had
not been contradicted, and he presumed it could not be con-
tradicted ; and why, therefore, he asked, would no reduction
be made in the amount of the army stationed there? Neither
the internal state of the country, nor the state of the co-
lonies, warranted his Majesty's Government in asking for the
continuance of so large a force. With the exception of a few
outrages at the Cape of Good Hope, the colonies were in a
state of the most perfect tranquillity. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving that a reduction of 5,000 men be made in
the number of our standing army.
Sir S. CANNING had intended to have brought under
the:consideration of die house the late occurrences at Cracow;
but not seeing the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affaire in his place, probably the most convenient course would
be to postpone it for the present—intimating, however, that he
should take the opportunity of doing so the first occasion that
presented itself when the House should be in Committee of
Supply
Mr. BOLDER° would have supported the motion of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, if his motion were for a reduc-
tion of expenditure, and not of the amount of the number of
men. The expenditure upon our colonies was quite extra-
vagant. Upon the nearly impregnable rock of Gibraltar, we
expended net less than from 150,0001. to 200,000/. per annum.
Then there was about 100,0001. incurred in the civil expen-
diture of Malta, and a proportionably extravagant expenditure
in the lonian Islands and Canada.
Dr. 130 WRING supported the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Middlesex.
Colonel PE ltC E VAL said that one argument assigned by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex for a reduction in the num-
bers of the army, was exceedingly fallacious—that was the
tranquillity of Ireland. Neuer since the rebellion of 1798
were some parts of Ireland in so disturbed a state as at
present--( Hear.)
Mr. DUNLOP was understood to express his opinion that
the land force was not larger than the exigencies of the
country demanded.
Mr. FINN rose in consequence of what had been said by
the lion. Member for Sligo. The country was becoming
more and more tranquil every day, notwithstanding all the
provocations that were offered. This would continue as long
as there was a man at the head of the Government determined
to act with impartiality.
After a few words from Mr. IloancE Twiss and
Major BEAUeLERK,
Sir C. DA LBINC observed, that the services of the Bri-
tish soldier was much more severe than those of the Conti-
nental soldier : it therefore vcould not be fair to increase their
duties, which would be the case if the number of troops was
diminished.
Lord HO W ICK remarked that the lion. Member for Mid-
dlesex had made some allusions to the changes that had taken
place in the opinions of Hon. Members with the change of
situation ; he would beg the lion. Member to speak for himself
and not for others, lie ( Lord Howiek ) had not altered his opi-
nion on this subject ; for if the lion. Gentleman would look
to the divisions, it would appear that lie had not voted in any
division for a large reduction in the number of troops. lie
had voted, as lie Fhould to-night, while sitting opposite, and lie
had seen no reason to alter his opinion. The present service
in the colonies was so severe on the army, that it was utterly
impossible to make any considerable. reductions. The lion.
Member was fond of alludhig to the state of the public estab-
lishments in 1792, but if he took the • trouble to refer to the
documents on the table, he would find that the number of
troops in the old colonies at that time was 15,100. men, and the
present number of troops so employed was 16,687, leaving an
increase of 1,500. Its New South Wales, in 1792, there were
only 420 soldiers, while at the present moment there were in
that andahe adjoining colonies 1,974 troops. It was neces-
sary to keep a great number of soldiers there, in consequence
of the peculiar circumstances of the colony. Ile agreed,
however, with the Hon. Gentlemen in Winking that it was to
the colonies they must look for any great reduction in the
number of troops, and he hoped that the time was not far dis-
tant when something of that kind might be effected. He would
only add, that for every 62 troops now employed at home, 100
were sent abroad.
Mr. HUME thought that he had assigned sufficient reasons
to justify him in pressing the House to a division.
The Committee thendivided

_ _____
Ayes
...
Noes . 136
Majority for the Estimate -9:1
Upon the resolution that a sum not exceeding 3,776,4131.
93. Id. be granted for the charge of the land forces for 1836-7,
_ Sir W. MOLE SWORTII rose to move that ..the Foot
.G. nerds be placed on the same footing as the troops of the
line." Ile considered those regiments as a great abuse, on
account of
the li •the privileges which they possess over the troops of
tie, in receiving a larger amount of pay fur fewer and less
important services. The effect of his motion would be, to do
evil to no specific individual ; to put the pay of all future officers
of the Foot Guards on the same footing as that of the line;
to effect an ultimate large saving to the country ; to strike off
one of the privileges of the Guards ; and if carried, it would
be tantamount to a declaration on the part of the !louse that
all these privileges should cease to exist. —( Hear, hear. ) The
first privilege which the Foot Guards possessed over the troops
of the line, was with regard to station. Of the seven regi-
ments or battalions of Guard, five were always in London, one
at Windsor, and one at Dublin. Compare this with the station
of the troops cf the line ; seventy-five regiments were in the
colonies, fifty of them within the tropics, or beyond the Cape,
and only twenty-five in what may be termed good climates—
namely, the Mediterranean and North America. Of the
twenty-eight at home, nineteen were in Ireland, where till
lately
they were employed in the &straining for tithes. The
effect of this privilege with regard to station was shown by the
Proportion
of deaths amongst the officers of the line and
amongst those of the Guards which was as more than three to
one. Thus, every thing else being the same, in an insurance,
an annuity on the life of an officer of the Guards was worth
an annuity on the longest of three lives of officers in the line
generally, and eight in India. What had the Guards done to
merit this most valuable privilege ? If nut a part and portion

lof the army, if only a sort of Royal police decorated with
military costume, surely it was most unjust to the rest of the
army to bestow upon them the largest share of the honour and
emoluments of military service, by the privilege they possessed
of rank. This privilege was the most obnoxious one of all—
a privilege unjust to the rest of the army, unjust to the public,
and which the inf.intry of the line justly considered as the
greatest possible grievance.—( Hear, hear.) The House was
aware that in the Foot Guards the ensign had the army rai.k
of lieutenant, the lieutenant that of captain, the captain that
of lieutenant-colonel, and the major that of colonel. Thus
the lieutenant, on becoming captain passes over all the
captains senior to hint in the service, passes over all the
majors in the army, and attains that rank, viz., -lieutenant-
colonel, after which almost all promotion is by seniority ; if lie
remain in the Guards, on becoming regimental major, he passes
over all the lieutenant-colonels senior to bins and :.ttains the
rank of colonel. Ti.e effect of this privilege is, that the
Guards supply nearly the same number of general ofil..!ers to
the army as the whole of the regiments of the line. Now, the
seven battalions of the Guards were in number about 5,200
men. Its these estimates he found there belonged to these re-
giments no less than sixty-eight officers, who had the army
rank of colonel and lieutenant-colonel, whilst the 106 batta-
lions of the line, amounting to 92,000 men, about eighteen
times the number of the Guards, had only 126 colonels. Thus
the officers of the Guards possess admirable facilities of ob-
taining rank in the army early in life, and it was, of course, of
the utmost importance to the individual who made the military
career his profession, to obtain rank in the army as early in
life as possible, to become as quickly as possible a lieutenant-
colonel ; for after becoming a lieutenant-colonel, whether the
individual remains on full or half-pay, whether he accompanies
his regiment to the deadly climate of our colonies, or live
luxuriously in London ; whether his time be passed in com-
bating the*Cafires at the Cape of Good Hope, in invading the
pestiferous swamps of the Birman Empire, or be more agree-
ably spent between Crockford's and Melon Mowbray, or in
lounging in the House, it is all the same ; his progress up the
list towards becoming a general officer is equally unimpeded.
Two-thirds of the officers of the Guards were generally on leave
of absence.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, it was a well-known fact, for
these favoured troops had particular facilities with regard to
obtaining leave of absence—the detail of regimental duty
being performed by the sergeants under the adjutant and com-
manding officers. The officers in respect to these duties were
mere cyphers.—( Hear, hear.) Again, if the lieutenant-colonel
of a regiment of infantry is removed from the command of a
regiment by a brevet, which makes him a major-general, he
receives only 3001 a year. Now, by the warrant of 1830, if
a captain in the Guards be_ moved in a similar manner, by
brevet, he receives 4001. a year ; if a regimental major in the
Guards, 5501.; if a regimental lieutenant-colonel, 600/4 al-
though the line were called upon to perform services which
never or rarely fell to the lot of the Guards. lie denied that
these troops were necessary to Royalty. The most ambitious
Monarch in Europe—the Monarch of France—had no guards.
The Sovereign who sat upon the most ancient throne in
Europe, the representative of the Caesars, had no guards—
the duties of his palace were performed by the troops of the
line. Were the troops in the British line inferior either in
courage or in discipline to those of the Austrian service ?
( Hear, hear.) Surely not. No ; the Guards were not the
pageants of Royalty ; they were the pageants of the Aristo-
cracy—a specious device, by means of which the wealthy and
the powerful were enabled to promote their offspring over the
heads of hard-worked and worn-out veterans.—( Hear. )
The resolution and the amendment upon it having been
read—
Mr. HUME seconded the amendment.

Major BEA UCL ERK supported the amendment.
Sir H. VERNEY could not refrain from rising for the pur-
pose of declaring that to his certain knowledge not the sligetest
jealousy existed between the officers of the line and those of
the Guards.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord A. LENNOX, after thirteen years of service in the
line, in various climates and countries, could also positively
declare that no such feeling existed between the officers of
the line and those of the Guards as had been related by the
Hon. Baronet.

Lord HOWICK had great satisfaction in hearing what had
fallen from the Noble Lord and the Hon. Baronet, because
he must say that he had felt great anxiety at the assertion made
by the Hon. Baronet (the Member for East Cornwall), that
the gallant officers of the lino felt aggrieved and jealous at the
privileges enjoyed by the officers of the Guards. From an-
other statement made by the lion. Baronet, the House would
suppose that the officers of the Guards had arrived at a very
early age at the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the army. lie
had drawn up a statement of the number of officers who, by
virtue of their standing in the Guards, ranked as lieutenant-
colonels in the army, and it appeared that of these there were,
in the First Regiment of Guards, 26; in the Coldstream Re-
giment, 16; and in the Third Regiment, 16 more ; making al-
together SS, exclusive of those who were actually doing duty as
field officers. Then as to the time in which these officers ar-
rived at such rank : the House would suppose, from the Hon.
Baronet's statement, that a 10 or 12 years' service sufficed ;
whereas, in point of fact, the average service was 24 years.
Sir W. MO LESWO RTH explained.
Lord HOWICK felt it necessary to make a few observations
o the House. The Hon. Baronet, in the course of his speech,
had given the number of officers, and stated that for every offi-
cer in the Guards there died three officers in the line. Not
expecting any such statement as that would be made, he had
not prepared himself to answer it ; but nevertheless lie could
most confidently contradict it.—(licar, hear.) As no pecu-
niary saving would result from the alteration recommended, he
hoped the house would resist it.
Air. I. E A DER. said—l beg most distinctly, on the part of my
Hon. Friend, on my own part, and on the part of those who
think with us, to disclaim this small and paltry object of the
mere saving of a few thousand pounds ; our object is to correct
an abuse, or what we consider an abuse, in privilege, and in
promotion. The lion. Member for 13uCkinghain also said that
the Guards were of use as well as of ornament to the public
service. So far as ornament goes, I 9uite agree with him, they
are very ornamental ; but as for their use, I must differ from
him. The only use to which they are put, so far as I know, is
mounting guard at the Palace and at some public offices, ap-
pearing on parade, and when any distinguished foreigner comes
to this country going through the ceremony of a review fur his
edification. They certainly fuse and gallant looking troops,
but they must make but a small impression on a foreigner who
is accustomed to see 20,000 or 30,000 men reviewed, from the
ver) smallness of their number, which in London never
amounts to more than 4,000 or 5,000. I can assure Hon.
Members opposite that I mean and that I feel nothing hostile
or disrespectful to the Guards. Nulli seen • des is the proud
motto of the Coldstream, and I do really in my conscience be-
lieve that they amply deserve that motto, and that in gallantry,
courage, discipline, and loyalty, they are inferior to no troops
in the world ; but that is no reason why they should enjoy an
unfair superiority over men equal), gallant and well-disciplined
as soldiers, and equally good and loyal as subjects-1 mean the
infantry of the line. The Hon. Member for Buckingham
stated that there was no good ground for complaint on the !c ;re
of promotion. Neither that Hon. Member nor any other Mem-
ber has attempted to disprove this fact—that the Guards fur-
nish 70 to the list of lieutenant-colonels, whcroas the rest of.
the infantry furnish but 126 lieutenant-colonels to that list.
Here you have a corps of 5,000 men of the favoured guards
supplying 70 to the list of lieutenant. colonels, while an army of
90,000 or more supplies but 126. Is this a fair proportion? Is
there not favour and privilege here? This is a fact —uncon-
troverted and incontrovertible. -This alone is an abuse great
enough to warrant our endeavours to change the present s3s-
tern. The Noble Lord the Member for Chichester states on
his own knowledge, that there exists no jealousy on the part
of the line against the Guards. I know not what his expe-
rience may be, but I will remind him of a passage iu a Me-
braced writer, referring to this very point. 1 fiod in the
thirty-fifth letter of JUIIIU9 this passage, " They (the marching
regiments) feel and resent, as they ought to do, that invariable
undistinguishing favour with which the Guards are treated."
I find a note on this passage by the same author, The number
of commissioned officers in the Guards are, to the m wching
regiments as 1 to 11. The number of regiments given to the
Guards, compared with those given to the line, is about 3 to I,
at a moderate computation ; consequently, the partiality in
favour of the Guards is as 33 to 1. So much for the officers.
The private men have four-pen:e a-day to subsist on, and
500 lashes if they desert: under this punishment they fre-
quently expire. With ,these encouragements it is supposed
they might be depended, upon whenever a certain person thinks
it necessary to butcher his fellow-subjects." The date of this
passage is bec. 19, 1769. Thus we see that 'the evil was
known and complained of more than fifty ye ors ago. There
Was jealousy then on the part of the line against the privileged
Guayas. 1 venture to say that there has been jealousy ever
since ; but from that time to 1330, it was useless to bring the
subject before Parliament ; for whether the Whigs or the To-
ries Were in power,' the influence of the aristocracy W 33 pre-
dominant in this' House ; and' it was well known that this fa-
voured corps was appropriatei to themselves, that they might
enjoy military honour and military promotion without military
service. But now that we have a reformed /louse of Com-
mons, I do hope and confidently trust that this abuse, as well
as all other abuses, may be corrected.
Sir 11. HARDINGE thought he might congratulate the
House, that the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down had
made some advances in the discovery of " Junius." So iden-
tical were the sentiments of the lion. Baronet who had brought
forward this motion with those of the great unknown, that
surely the source from which the I lon. Gentleman had quoted
so copiously could be none other than the lion. Baronet him-
self,—( A laugh.) This was not all, for he thought he could
track and trace in march and countermarch through the book
before him, nut only the essential words of the speech which
the Honourable Baronet had delivered, but even the very
words.—( hear, hear.) The Honourable Baronet did the
House the favour to state that his facts were taken from the
King's Gazette; if the King's Gazette meant The London
Renew, then lie could understand the statement of the lion.
Baronet. lie found in page 388 of The London Review
passages which were most extraordinary for the likeness they
bore to much of what the lion. Baronet had addressed to the
House. Not only were these arguments used by the Hon.
Baronet to be read in an article in The London Review, but
were the very words. As regarded the jealousy imputed, lie
had served the greater portion of his life in the line ; he had
had the honour also to have sexed five or six years in time
Guards ; and repeati9. from his personal observations, he
could say that whether in the garrison or in the field, whether
in time of war or during peace, that jealousy attributed to the
officers of the Guards and the officers of the !hie did not exist.
—( Hear, hear.) In reply to the statements made to the !louse,
he might mention the fact that time force of the first Grenadier
Guards was renewed three times during the war. The losses
in men amounted to 28,000. The Guards had also greatly
distinguished themselves in Egypt and in America, and had
most honourably conducted themselves during the Peninsular
war, and particularly in the battle of Waterloo, on which oc-
cas'on their defence of flegoumont was the moat triumphant
that ever took place.—( Cheers.) When he returned to En-g

land he exchanged into the Guards, thinking that his bng.ser-
vice to his country entitled him to the repose of home service.
If they deducted the interest of 4 per cent. from the price of
the commission, an.l recollected that the officers in the
Guards received neither lodging money,
nor wine allowance,
to: mess allowance, nor allowance for arms, they would find
that Lis income did not exceed Ms/. a-year. After deducting
the price of his commission, the Lieutenant-General received
but SUL per annum.—( Hear, hear.) Ile would say this for
the Guw..l4, that their :o ig experience both in the garrison
and doing peace, gave them the superiority of discipline.
Captain HOPE said the saving which would be effected by
placing the Guards on the same footing as the officers of the
line, n• ild be 8,0321. per annum ; the compensation to
them for the difference between what they bad paid for their
c munissioas and the value of the commissions of the line,
would be 225,0031. odd.—( [tear, hear. )_

Several lion. Genlemen rose, and Mr. Kearsicy amongst
elem. There were loud cries of " Kearsley," l‘ith much
lauxhter.

1I r. K E A It S L E Y persevered, and when order was restored,
spoke as fiallows :—Mr. Speaker ; the Hon. Baronet has
brought forward this motion almost in a manner equal to that
of a serjeant of 'The line—( Laughter)—backed by his corpo-
ral Junius, the Hon. Member for Bridgewater—(Shouts of
laughter)—but, owing to his experiment. 9f to-night, I fear
he will have orders to march to the right-about—(Renewed
laughter )—and if he does, the corporal will find no services for
him but that f the Hon. Member for Middlesex, " The Old
Fogies. "—( Protracted laughter. )
Mr. T. DUN CO M BE would not discuss the question whether
uniformity was desirable throughout the army or not, but if it
was, he would maintain, that instead of lowering the Guards
to the level of the line, they ought to raise the line to the
standard of the Guards.—( Hear, hear.) The evil of the pre-
sent military system was this—the soldier was too frequently
considered the slave of the State, instead of being placed on
an equality with his fellow-citizens.
Afters few words front Mr. LEADER,
Mr. ROEBUCK remarked that exhibitions sometimes took
place in that House with which be should be very sorry the
public were acquainted. There was the o:d proverb "in vino
veritav ;" lie wished lie could add, there was decency also.—
( Cries of " Oh, oh 1" from Mr. Kearsley.) In this debate
charges had been made, not against the Guards, but against
the system, and what was desired was to have that system
changed. In his opinion a distinction was made not to keep
up the dignity of the Crown, but to favour a peculiar class in
tai's country.—( Cries of " Oh, oh I" from Mr. Kearsley.)
Sir IL HA It DING E did not feel it necessary to make any
reply to the lion. Member who had spoken last, as his only
object seemed to be to draw invidious distinctions between dif-
ferent branches of the same service.

Sir C. DALBIAC remarked that every time the army
estimates were discussed, the most improper attempts were
made to throw discredit on the Guards. He should feel it to
be his duty to defend them from every such attempt.
Mr. C. BULLER considered that the system pursued with
respect to the Guards was a system of as gross jobbing and
oppression as ever had been exhibited.—( Cries of " Oh, oh 1")
Hon. Gentlemen called out " Oh !" when he spoke plain
English ; but he should say, to speak in the mildest terms,
that it was a system of jobbing, corruption, and oppression. It
was a system to promote gentlemanly men to higher offices
than they could obtain by regular service in the army.
Mr. E WART should vote for the motion of the Her.
Member. _ _ _

Colonel PEEL stated, that the very mildest terms he could
use with respect to the observations of the Hon. Member for
Liskcard were, that they displayed the greatest ignorance of
the matter upon which he had spoken.
Sir W. AI 0L E S WORTH briefly replied. He stated that
the Right lion. and Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge) had
remarked upon his making use of an article in the London Re-
view. He would say that, if any individual had a right to
make use of an article in that Review, he was the person, as
the Review was his property. He was therefore obliged to
the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer for the kind manner in
which he had spoken of it ; and he trusted that Honourable
Members would purchase it.—(Hear, and laughter.) Ho
could assere thorn that upon the sarrie subject there was an ad-
mirable article in the fourth number.—(Laughter.)
The committee than divided.
For the amendment 46
Agaiest it
Majority in favour of the original vote
The next vote, namely, of 153,6841. Bs. sd. for the charges
of general staff-officers, officers of hospitals, S:c., was then
proposed.
Mr. Ii UME complained of the aristocratic influence which
was allowed to prevail in the disposal of staff appointments.
Ile was anxious to know whether any steps had been taken by
the Government, in conformity with the resolution of the
Committee which recently sat, recommending the occasional
removal of staff officers at head quarters?
Lord HOW ICK was understood to say, that the matter was
one which rested entirely with the Commander-in-chief.
Mr. HUME hoped that the House would mark its disap-
probation at the circumstance that the recommendation of one
of its Committees had been rendered of no avail. If the Com-
mander-in-chief were a person opposed to Liberal opinions,
it would be impossible to suppose that these appointments
could be divested from political considerations.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL agreed that the relo.u'ion of
the Committee in question should be carried into effect by the
Government by such means as they thought best. As to the
military administration of the present Commander-in-chief, he
believed it was almost unnecessary for him to say that there
tea: not the :lightest reason to attribute to any influence on
political grounds the appointments and promotions at the
Hors.: Guards.
Sir HENRY HA IMINGE thanked the Noble Lord for
his open and candid testimony as to the perfectly fair adminis-
tration of Lord !fill, whose conduct as Commander-in-Chief
he believed to be perfectly free from political bias.
Colonel THOMPSON slid that as far as his experience
went, he believed that all classes of political opinion received
fair play front the Commander-in-Chief.
Sir .1. ELLE Y stated that ho was a soldier who had gone
through every grade in the profession, and be would most cer-
tainly declare, that from the time he had entered the army el
to the present moment, the remotest degree of aristocratic )
in-
fluence had never been used in his favour.--( Hear, hear.)
lie thought that the promotions in the army could not be bet-
ter disposed of than In the hands of the Noble Lord now at
the head of the army.
Mi. HUME said that the case of the lion. and Gallant
Member who had just spoken was a glorious and honourable
exceptioa to ;h.,general rule. Ile thought, however, that it
could not be advanced as a general argument on the subject of
army promotion.
Air. C. FE IiGUSSON said that nothing could be more
unfounded than the observations of the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex as to the management of business at the Horse Guards,
which he believed to be entirely free from political influence.
After a few words from Col. SIBTIIOItP and Mr. WAIMEA',
Lord HOWICK admitted that the Government had not
pressed upon Lord Hill the necessity of abolishing the prac-
tice of wearing side arms by soldiers off duty. lie believed,
however, that the cases of serious accidents in consequence of
that practice had been exceedingly rare. When, then, the in-
stances were so rare of abuse with regard to this practice,
he considered it very inexpedient that the habit of self-con-
trol with which soldiers in the habit of wearing their
side-arms were perfectly familiarised should be discontinued.
—( l.iear, hear.) The consequence of such a change
would be that ou occasions of strong excitement when
soldiers were called on to act, and when they might not
be under the immediate control of their officers, they would
be much more like to transgress the bounds of duty than men
who wen, always under the influence of salutary self-restrainti
—( Hear, hear.) lie did not think that th we WWI any ground
for affixing this rn irk of degradation to Cie character the
of
English nod, be lowering hint lii his own opinion, de-
priving him of a strong stimulus to meritarious cxertio.i.
Mr. EWA I; r was of opinion, that iiistea.l of lowering the
character of the sal.lier, lie should consider .himself
raised in rank by being obliged to lay aside a useless but dau-

gerous distinction.
Mr. ROEBUCK ►ras strongly opposed to the practice of
soldiers wearing their side arms, by which so many fatal affrays

had been causa.
Sir 11. IL A RDINGE thought that because five.nr six oc-
casions occurred in the course of the year when soldiers abused
this privilege, it would bo extremely hard, on such slight
grounds, to subject the British army to a degradation to which
neither the French or G:rman soldier was liable.
After a few words ''rorn M. 'f:ulk, Colonel Anson, Mr.
Maclean, and all lI ►n Member,
Mr. HUME observed that nothing could be more incensis-
taut than the opinions which the Gallant o:ileer (Sir 11. Ito--
(iinge) advanced with refvrence to the dignity of the NAO.!'
soldier. When a proposition was made for doing away uith
the abominable practice of II >g:4ing on the ground, among
others, that it was continued in the British army alone, the
Gallant Otli.:er maintained that the distinction in this respect
was necessary to be preserved, for the reason, as he (Mr.
Hume) supposed, that having male mat brutes, it was neces-
sary that they be made to preserve too character. Now when
it was thought by many !lon. Members that the practice of
Wearing side-arms was unnecessary awl dangerous, the custom
that prevailed in this respect in other countries was deemed
essential to the dignity don English soldier.
After a few words from Lord llowica, A. Tau volt, and
Mr. Snow, the vote was agreed to.
The CIIAIIt M A N reported progress, and obtained lenvo
to sit again on Monday next.
STAFFORD BOROUGII 1)1 ritANCIIISENIENT

BILL.
On the motion of Mr. DIVETT, the Staff.rd Borough
Disfranchisement Bill was read n third time and passed,
DUBLIN POLICE.

Lord MOUPETH moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
emend the Dublin Police Acts.. The Noble Lord observed that
as the measure was identically simi ar to that which he had in-
troduced towards the close of the last SJision, he was saved
the necessity of offering any exposition of its details upon the
present occasion. It would suffice to say, that the object ho
had in view was the establishment in Dublin of a police farce
of the same character, and governed by the same regulations,
ns that now to be found in the metropolis.
Mr. SH A W coincided in the policy of several of the altera-
tions which the measure Went to effect, and therefore would not
oppose its introduction. The details of the Bill would, how-
ever, require much consideration in Committee.
Leave s then given to bring in the Bill.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
House adjourned at a quarter past twelve o'clock.

Our columns of this evening anuowice the sale of
all the property of poor Charles Mathews, the great Come-
dian of his day. George Robins, who was so long his inti-
mate friend, is deputed to act the part of distributing to the
public some valuable relics in his late abode in Great Russell-
bt rect. The sale will most probably create a great sensation.