The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 30.
RATE IN AID (IRELAND BILL—SECOND
READING.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. NAPIER had come to the conclusion of giving
his vote against the second reading of this Bill. Whether
the House regarded the principle of this measure, or the
feeling which it had excited amongt the
most intelligent part of the Irish people, it was
a measure equally deserving their disapprobation
He wished to consider this question in the first instance
as a question of principle. Ile meant to divide the argil.
ment into two parts ; the first was the question of rating,
and the second was the question of taxation. With re-
gard to the question of rating, the principle involved in
this Bill was precisely this, whether a (rate
should be imposed on the rateable property of any
union in aid of the rate of any other union, however
distant or disconnected. He would remind the En-
glish Members that this principle might be
one day applied to themselves. Now, he con-
ceiTecl that OLICIA a priuoipls es that

into a system of poor-laws was one which de-
manded the greatest consideration before it was
introduced, because if he examined it lightly, it in-
cluded every system of poor• law that had yet been
introduced into either England or Ireland.—
(Cries of "Hear, hear.") There was an attempt
made to establish an analogy between this case and the
statute of Elizabeth; but in his opinion there was no
ground for such an analogy. Unless the House
were ready to convert the whole of Ireland into one poor-
law union, it would be impossible to pass this Bill with any
consistency. The principle of the Act of Elizabeth wits that
of local control and local superintendence. But the present
Bill said to a union in the extreme north that it should pay
for the maintenance of poor in an union in the extreme
south,.., and yet they were told that such a principle was
foundin the statute of Elizabeth. Nothing was more im-
portant than to preserve the control of local superintendence
both with regard to the amount raised and the manner in
which it was disbursed.—(Hear, hear.) The small amount
of the money to be raised under the Bill, and the temporary
duration of the tax, had nothing to do with the question ; if
the money were improperly levied it made no difference
whether the amount was a penny or thousands of pounds.
He warned English Members against assenting to a prece-
dent for taking away from them that superintendence of
their own poor which they had enjoyed since the time of
Elizabeth. It would be monstrously unjust to place the
property of one part of Ireland at the mercy of
individuals who might be guilty of the most extravagant
expenditure and whose acts they could not control. lie
should now come on to the Poor-law Extension Act, a mea-
sure which introduced a new and a dangerous principle,
that of out-door relief. Doubtless that important change
Was proposed with the best possible intention, but, once car-
ried out into practical operation, it became an essential con-
dition of its existence that one part of the country should
not be called on to pay for the other. If it were expedient
and just, as it unquestionably was both expedient and just,
that under the law of 1838 the districts rated to the poor
should be of limited extent, a fortiori, that principle became
more necessary when out-door relief was engrafted upon
the existing poor-law. There was nothing which so pe-
remptorily forbade going for rates beyond the union or
district as the practice of maintaining the able-bodied poor
outside the workhouse. Out-door relief might be all very
well in a state of high social advancement, and where per-
fect vigilance could be exercised ; but he conceived that
they could not, without imminent danger; extend the liabi-
lity of ratepayers beyond the union •or district. He
wished most especially to impress upon the House his
sense of the great importance of the measure with which they
were then called upon to deal—he felt it to be his duty in the
most solemn terms to assure the House that much depended
upon the manner in which they modified the law then before
them, and he hoped. that in considering that modification
they would remember the number of authorities that were
against the Ministerial proposition—the Boundary Report
was against them, and the opinions of the best and most
impartial minded men in Ireland were likewise adverse to
the plan. Nothing could be more evident than this, that in
proportion as the social condition of the community was
high so might unions of great extent be tolerated; but, un-
fortunately, the less advanced portions of Ireland, the west
and the south, contained the largest, while the north and
east possessed the advantage of smaller unions. With a re-
markable degree of Irish perversity, they had created large
unions where of necessity they must prove most mischievous
and permitted small ones to be formed where their existenee
was the least beneficial.—(Hear, hear.) The effects pro-
ceeding from the law of 1847 had as yet been oily partially
developed. It was a law that they well knew had been
forced on Ireland, being manifestly a piece of Ministerial
policy. Of all the consequences that had already proceeded
from this measure, the Archbishop of Dublin had foretold
the details with an accuracy more historical than prophetic.
But what did the report of 1834 say upon the subject of out-
door relief; he meant the report made in England on the
condition of the poor in this country, and on the state of
the law relating to their relief; That report stated that the
funds available for the .relief of the poor in England " were
applied to purposes opposed to the letter and still more to
the spirit of the law, and destructive to the morals of the
most numerous class, and the welfare of all; that the great
source of abuse was the out-door relief afforded to the able-
bodied on their account or on that of their families, given
either in kind or in money." The measure of 1838 esta-
blished no out-door relief for the Irish ; it was reserved for
a subsequent piece of policy to force that evil upon the
country. It they forced, as they had done, an imperial law
upon the people of Ireland, it was rather too hard that they
should compel them to pay a provincial price for it. He de.
nied altogether the principle that money should be paid by
unions which could exercise no control over its expenditure—
it was a policy alike unjust and unwise. The case of the poor-
law in England and in Ireland differed most widely. Here
it was a part of a very old system—everyone took his property
with the full knowledge that it was subject to such a charge;
but for the first time it was superinduced on Ireland in the
year 1838; and one of the objects of all legislation in the
subject now. should be to make every interest bear the bur-
den according to equitable principles ; and Parliament was
bound not only to observe such principles, and shape its
legislation in accordance with them, but they were also
bound to pay due attention to the means of giving employ-
ment to the poor, as well as improving their condition ;
and he was not alone in making that assertion,' for be could
quote in its support the authority of the Marquis of Lans-
downe, who expressed himself in the following terms :
" If ever there was a solemn pledge given on the part of
Government during the discussion which ended in the
passing of the Irish Poor-law last session, it was, that their
Lordships would, with reference to that law, by every means
in their power, encourage the employment of the labouring
poor of Ireland." Then he might advert to another point
with regard to Ireland, on which the same Noble Lord ex-
pressed himself strongly. When it was hinted that money
lent in Ireland for public purposes was not usually repaid
with much readiness, the Marquis of Lansdowne expressed
an opinion favourable to the manner in which repayments
had been effected, and gave some striking instances in sup-
port of the opinions which he entertained on that subject. It
was thought by those best acquainted with Ireland, and who
most attentively considered the present state of that country,
that the present plans of her Majesty's Ministers were not
likely to prove successful ; theories like theirs must be
shivered at once in such a place as. Ireland; the land was
heavily encumbered, capital was deplorably deficient, the
surplus population was excessive, and the cottier system ge-
nerally prevalent. How, then, could plans applicable to
England be made to work in Ireland ? But recently a fa-
mine came, which gave the opportunity while it pointed
out the necessity for comprehensive measures, yet for those
they had still to seek; though the dispensations of Provi-
dence had forced the Government to do something—they
" saw the lightning and were afraid, but they had not yet
heird the voice." The present measure of the Govern-
ment afforded no hope—there was no justice in it. The
tenant-farmers would derive no advantage from it. It
would not benefit the clergy or the landlords. The people
might be kept alive by it, but nothing more. By it
the people would be more demoralized than ever—not
that he meant to say anything to the disparagement of his
poorer fellow-countrymen, for he regarded them with
feelings of the deepest compassion, and he was not without
hope that in Englaad feelings of compassion would be vividly
awakened. England ought to have a high ambition with
reference to Ireland. He hoped she would soon feel that the
state of Ireland ought not to be a matter of money and fi-
nance, but that, as regarded that' country, she had a great
mission to fulfil. If by a rate-in-aid they merely kept Ire-
land from starving, they would shut out all hope of better
days, and he must say that if the money spent in relief
works had been applied to emigration or other useful pur-
poses, Ireland would now be in a much better condition
than she was. He had received a' letter from a Noble
Lord in the west of Ireland, who stated that the unions
in his district were in a ruined and hopeless state,
that they had been brought to insolvency, and
rendered a burden upon the rest of the country-
by the operation of the very Act which'was now to be up-
held by a rate-in-aid. Many of the landlords in that part
of Ireland had discharged their duties in a very praiseworthy
manner, and not a few of them had been r educed almost to
beggary. He knew one case of a gentleman, formerly pos •
sessing considerable property, who solicited and obtained an
appointment as poor-law inspector, and who soon afterwards
died from fever caught in the performance of his duties. He
(Mr. Napier) believed all reasonable- men would agree with
him that the prosperity of Ireland was in a great measure de-
pendent on the application of capital and labour to agricul-
ture.—( Hear, hear.) -They had been told upon high autho-
rity, that Ireland required three things :—first, repose from
angry differences and divisions ; secondly, capital and labour;
and thirdly, private individual exertion. He would ask
them to -test the present measure with reference to these
three points. There was a strong feeling against
this measure in a portion of Ireland distinguished
for the intelligence and integrity of the popu-
lation, who was not inclined to shirk any
fair liability. He hoped, however, that if this Bill should
receive' the assent of Parliament, no passive resistance would
be offered to its being carried out.—(Hear, hear.) But still
the persons to whom he referred felt thst this measure would
operate unjustly upon them, and its tendency would be to
weaken their affection and attachment to England. Did the
House think, then, that the Bill was likely to contribute to
the repose of Ireland, when it would give an opening to
those who were anxious to sever the connexion between the
two countries to encourage that agitation -which, as Lord
Clarendon stated, had been the means of scaring away
capital from Ireland ? Then with regard to the question
of capital,—it was considered advisable some years ago to
make advances to Ireland by way of loan, but now that
such assistance was really required it was denied; and the
system of poor-laws would deter men from applying the
shattered remnant of capital that remained to the employ-
ment of labour, and would paralyze that private exertion
and enterprise which was so essential to the welfare of the
country. He contended, then that if they adopted this
measure in conjunction with the present system of poor-laws
the ruin of Ireland was certain.--(Hear, hear.) He would
ask the House to reflect what must be the feelings of those
persons in Ireland who had done their duty in carrying out
the poor-law without any assistance from England, and who
had borne up againstall difficulties, when they were required
to contribute to the outlay of remote districts, where they
knew the greatest maladministrations of funds had existed.
Was it wise to irritate a peaceable and industrious portion of
the population by forcing upon them such a necessity ? He
might be asked," Then are the people to be left to starve?"
His answer was—they were not. But the question was, not
whether money was required, but out of what funds it should
be provided?-(Hear.) He would admit, for the purposes of
discussion, that money was needed, but they had no right to
take it out of any fund that might be most convenient. If
he saw a person starving and wished to relieve him, he had
no right to pick another man's pocket in order to do so. The
question was, should this be an imperial grant or an Irish
grant? He was anxious, so far from saying anything to
weaken the union between the two countries, to do all in his
power to give it strength and efficiency; but he must say
that, if Ireland were an integral part of the United Kingdom,
this should be an imperial grant. He claimed all the privi-
leges of the union, feeling that he was bound to submit to all
its liabilities; and until he repudiated some of these liabilities
they were not at liberty to deprive him of the privileges to
which he was enlitled by reason of the union. It was said
that Ireland did not pay a full proportion of the imperial tax-
ation. His reply was, that Ireland had paid all she had been
asked to pay—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—and he thought
that was a sufficient answer. If the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, when he proposed a grant to Ireland of .50,000/.
from the Consolidated Fund a short time since, believed that
Ireland did not pay her full proportion of taxation, surely the
Right Honourable Gentleman must have been guilty of
great injustice to the people of England in granting
such a sum from the Imperial Treasury. He believed at
that time the Government had not the slightest notion of
proposing a rate in aid; that war an afterthought.—(Hear,
hear.) When they found there was a determined opposition
on the part of the English people to granting money to Ire-
land, the Government thought, " Oh, but we can get the
English Members to go against Ireland. Some of the Irish
Members may resist, but we have others who will willingly
back us."— (A laugh.) "Rem, sipossis recta, si non quocunque
modo rem.' bet them impoie upon Ireland whatever fair
liability she ought to bear; but, if they had delayed im-
posing a sufficient taxation upon Ireland, that was no rea-
son for visiting the land of that country with the penalty.
proposed by this Bill. Such'a course had been objected
to by the Right Honourable Member for Tamworth (Sir
Rama ros1), in his speech 914 Mr. R9oblick'ti rinticlr for .

1849

the extension of the prorerty tax to Ireland. The Right
H.n. Baronet then said that he could not see the justice
or equality of the principle of applying such a tax to land,
and to land alone, in Ireland, so that the Lord-Lieutenant
would be exempt, while land alone would bear the burden.
A similar view was taken by the Noble Secretary for Foreign
Affairs (Lord Palmerston) during the same debate. The
Noble Lord said that one of the grievances of Ireland was
the want of capital fair local improvements • and that the
imposition of the property-tax would diminish capital, while
exoneration from taxes would lead to the introduction of
capital. He (Mr. Napier) considered that a strictly similar
taxation of the two countries never could be contemplated.
They must enable Ireland to bear the charge, they must
raise her from her difficulties, and then they might saddle
her with a portion of the burden. If they placed upon Ire-
land a pressure which that country was not able to bear, they
might be assured that its effect would recoil upon this coun-
try. Last year it was said that Ireland was not fit to bear
the income tax. Was she, he asked, more fit to bear it now.
—(Hear, hear.) He would now direct his attention to the
suggestions thrown cut by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamwurth, and to the consideration of what
might in future be done for the improvement of Ireland. His
humble opinion was, that what was necessary for the present
difficulties of the distressed unions ought to coins out of the
Consolidated Fund. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to sug-
gest, particularly with respect to the west of Ireland, which
doubtless was in a condition the most ruinous, if it continued
long, and therefore required some bold, wise, and compre-
hensive measures, that the accession of a new class of pro-
prietors, having means and wealth, would be sufficient to get
the country out of its difficulties; of course, he ( Mr. Napier)
hesitated to express any opinion which might appear to clash
with the views of an individual of so much experience, but
he must beg to say that he did not think that that suggested
measure would be sufficient to extricate the country from its
difficulties. Though many of the present proprietors had
been called only nominal owners, and though the mort-
gagees had been styled the real owners, yet when the
poor-law was passed the present proprietors were rated
as the real owners, and after they had broken down
under that burden it seemed a bard measure of
justice to say, though they were treated as respected
the poor-law as real owners, and though the mort-
gagees then escaped, that now they should be turned out of
possession, and that the incumbrances on the land should be
discharged out of the means of other parties, not in favour
of the poor owners, but in favour of capitalists and the
moneyed interest. He admitted that the removal of im-
poverished proprietors would be an important step; and his
comments only referred to the mode of effecting that object.
However, he was satisfied that a mere change of proprietors
was not the thing which alone would set the country up
again. In a union in the south of Ireland (Kenmare) a
large portion of the property belonged to 'a Noble Lord of
high character and great liberality, in the posses.
sion of opulence and every quality which could
make a man . perzunally amiable to his tenantry—he alluded
to the Marquis of Lansdowne. On that property there was
a tenant right, the middlemen had been removed an abate-
ment of rent had been made by the Noble Marquis last year
to the amount of 12 per cent., and everything had been
done to lead to improvement. What had been the result?
There were two neighbouring properties there, neither of
which had an ablebodied pauper in the union; and three-
fuurths of the pauperism of the union were supplied from the
Marquis of Lansdowne's property. What would they do
with respect to property of that kind ? Would they change
the proprietor and get rid of the Marquis of Lansdowne ?
The fact was that the population on the property was exces-
sive, and though the Noble Marquis had got rid of the
middlemen, he had bad too much humanity to turn out the
population, who, so long as the potato thrived, lived in an
extremely low animal state. Thus it happened that
there was one gentleman in the neighbourhood who,
though he spent the whole of his income on his pro-
perty, had nevertheless to pay heavy rates' to support the
paupers on the Marquis of Lansdowne's estates. This
showed that, for the purpose of improving certain parts
of Ireland, it was necessary to take measures not only
as respected insolvent proprietors, but also as re-
spected insolvent tenants. The work of improvement must
be carried on at both ends, and any measure for raising up
Ireland ought to be accompanied by provisions for emigra-
tion, in order that the country might be relieved from super-
abundant population. At present the people were leaving
the country, but unfortunately it was the man of energy
and some means who went out, and it was the destitute that
were left behind. Nevertheless, this voluntary emigration
ought to teach the Legislature a lesson. The people were
taking to emigration as a natural cure, and it ought to give
Parliament the hint to work out that cure by proper pre-
cautions.—(Hear, hear.) This he knew could not be done
speedily. It must be a slow process; but if a wise and
comprehensive policy was announced by that House, and if
Honourable Members would co-operate with one heart and
spirit to raise up Ireland again, such a course would cheer
the population, and might be the means, under God, of
saving the country.—(Elear, and cheers.) He thought,
also, that many things connected with the amendment of the
poor-law might be done; and one arrangement appeared to
be desired by many intelligent men, namely, the reduction
of the area of taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He likewise believed
that some means might be devised for advancing money on
approved security for the improvement of agriculture. He
re;,,retted that some observations of his bad been misunder-
stood on a former occasion, and that he had been erroneously
supposed to argue that Ulster should not contribute towards
the support of Connaught, because the former was Protestant
and the latter Roman Catholic. It was far from his wish,
in considering what course of policy would be beneficial to
his country, to say anything calculated to divide Irishmen
into opposing parties. All men, of whatever political party
or religious creed, should unite to effect the prosperity of
their common country; and he would conclude by addressing
them iu the following words :—" Quare videte num dubitan-
dum sit vobis omni studio ad id opus incumbere, in quo
gloria nominis nostri, salus sociorum, vectigalia maxims,
fortunaa plurimorum civium una cum republickdefendantur."
(The Hon. Gentleman-sat down amid loud cheers from all
parts of the House.)
Sir R. PEEL—As in the course of the very able and tem-
perate speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman—a speech
on which I will pass this eulogium, that it was worthy of his
own high character for ability and moderation—(Hear, hear)
—he has frequently done me the honour of referring to opi-
nions expressed by me, and as I wish to take this opportu-
nity of making some observations rather with reference to
the general social condition of Ireland than to the particular
enactments of the measure now under consideration, I can-
not perhaps rise at a more opportune time than the present
to address the House_ I gave my vote for the proposal of
the Government rather ;or the purpose of expressing an
opinion that we had a fair claim to call upon Ireland for
some separate and independent exertion, than for the pur- ,
pose of expressing an opinion on the particular merits of
that proposal in relation to other proposals that ea gilt have
'been made. I still think, notwithstanding the speech o the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that we have that claim on
Ireland for separate and independent exertion. (Hear,
hear.) My opinion is founded ou a variety of considerations
—on the consideration of the great and noble exertion wil-
lingly made by this part of the empire for the relief of Ire-
land, and partly on the consideration that Ireland has not
done her duty in respect to the repayment of her pecuniary
obligations to the Imperial Treasury on account of certain
advances connected with the operation of the Irish Poor-
law. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says " that Ireland
has paid all she has been asked for;" but it is because I
totally differ from him on that point that I think we have
a fair claim upon Ireland on the present occasion for separate
exertion. We asked Ireland to pay 1,300,0001. which had
been advanced from the Imperial Treasury to enable her to
build her workhouses. Money had also been advanced to
this part of the empire for the purpose of relieving it from
the immediate charge of the workhouses. I have not heard
that England declined to pay those advances, but I am
afraid that Ireland, generally speaking, has repudiated the
debt.—(Hear, hear.) Ido not think the answer of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman on this head at all satisfactory. I
think there was a clear pecuniary obligation, and that ought
to have been discharged by Ireland.—(]fear, hear.) I regret
she has not discharged it, because I think the refusal ope-
rates as a discouragement to consider her case under circum-
stances when similar aid might be required. I voted also for
the measure before the House, because I entertained a con-
fident belief that if Ireland made a separate and independent
exertion, she would induce Great Britain the more readily
to co-operate with her in those efforts which I believe ne-

cessary for her welfare.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")l did
not give my vote for this measure because I considered it
any sufficient remedy for the evils under which Ireland
labours ; and I think that the House is totally mistaken
if it believes that the last 50,0004, or the present 100,0001.,
or any rate in aid which you may impose on Ireland,
are measures at all commensurate with the evils of that
country.—(Cheers.) In many parts of the speech of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman I concurred. So far am I
from being inclined to raise any prejudices on the part of
Great Britain against Ireland, that I concur with him in
thinking that injustice has been done to Ireland. With re-
spect to the operation of this poor-law, I think that Ireland
has made a great exertion to meet the obligations imposed
on her.—(Dear, hear.) I think that England ought to bear
in mind that she is circumstanced with respect to the poor-
law in a manner totally different from Ireland; that that
was a new and unexpected imposition with respect to Ire-
land in 1838, and that the argument used in favour of the
continuance of impositions of that kind, namely, that the
property was purchased subject to those pecuniary obliga-
tions which had endured for centuries, did not apply to the
case of Ireland, which was called on to bear the expense
of a poor-law although t:le engagements as to property
had been made under another state of things.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") In 1833 Ireland was called on
to support a charge which she had not before
been subject to, and in the midst of unparalleled affliction
Ireland bore a burden last year of not less than 1,600,000'.
for the support of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) I think that a
great exertion.—(Cheers.) I heard it said the other night,
by some Hon. Gentleman, " Why should we support the
poor of Ireland, since, after having supported them, Ireland
rebelled against the supremacy of the Crown ?" I believe
that charge to be utterly unfounded.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland
did not rebel. The people of Ireland, generally speaking,
did-not listen to the temptations held out to them; and we
were enabled to suppress the iebelliou with such compara-
tive ease, and without the loss of a single man, either of mi-
litary or police, because Ireland did not rebel, and because
the people of Ireland, suffering, as they were, from severe
calamity, did remain, generally speaking, faithful in their
allegiance to this country.—(Hear, and cheers.) I state this
for the purpose of attempting to propitiate this part of
the united kingdom towards that unfortunate country. I
speak, I own, almost overwhelmed by a sense of the ca-
lamity which Ireland has sustained, and of the magnitude of
the present crisis.—(Hear, bear.) My appeal to these more
favoured portions of the empire is an appeal, not merely on
the ground of justice—not merely on the ground of the na-
tural sympathy which we ought to feel with the miseries and
sufferings of our fellow-subjects; I believe those appeals of
justice and natural sympathy would prevail with this country
when the case of Ireland was well understood—(Hear)—but
my appeal to Great Britain is upon a still stronger groued—
upon the manifest consideration of her own true interest—.
(Hear) —in attempting to mitigate the affliction under which
Ireland is suffering, and to find a remedy for the dreadful
evils which are existing there.—(Hear, hear.) With the per-
mission of the House, I will remind them of the situation in
which we stand now in entering upon this discussion. I
will remind them that in the course of last year we found it
necessary to commence the session by what is called a
Coercioni Bill, by an Arms Bill, and, to conclude, with the
Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act.—(Hear.
hear.) I
gave my cordial support \to her Majesty's Government in the
introduction of those measures.—(Hear, bear.) I believe
those measures were forced upon them by a stern necessity.
I believe that all the evils of Ireland would have been ag.
gravated if those measures had not been passed. I refer to the
passing of them, not for the purpose of reflecting upon or
censuring her Majesty's Government—only for the purpose
of reminding the House of the unhappy condition of that
part of the United Kingdom. It is in vain for England
to think that by indifference or neglect she can relieve
herself from the burden - (Hear, hear)—that burden will
press upon her with intense force; the tendency of it
will be to reduce districts of this country to the same condi-
tion with some in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At.the moment
at which I am speaking I believe you have not less than
30,000 of the regular army in Ireland ; I think at the close.' of
last year you had a force of about 32,000 men. In addi-
tion to that military force, you have, I think, about 5,400
penwners ; and, 14 Adtiitipl3 W tilVDer you kayo u forge of

constabulary of, I believe, 12,000 or 13,090 men, the expense
of which is now borne not by Ireland —it is not a local charge
upon Ireland—it is borne by the Imperial Treasury. The
whole of the charge for that military force, therefore—the
constabulary; the pensioners, the regnlat army, a force of not
less than 47,000 men—is borne, not lOcally -by-Ireland, but
by the Imperial Treasury; whatever reducti al you can make
in the amount of that force by the improvement of the social
condition of Ireland is a pecuniary gain to this -country.—
( Hear, hear)—if, in regard to a question of this kind, any
such consideration as thht of pecuniaty gain could urge you
on.—(Hear, hear.) Now, With that force and with tlise
coercive laws, what is the social condition of Ireland? I pre-
sume that the statement I 'have here—l'read from a news-
paper—is an accurate account of'what took place at the last
assizes at Clonmel. It is stated :--

" The assizes fur one division only of the county of Tip-
perary, and that the most quiet one (the eouthhrn), com-
menced this day, at ten o'clock, before Judge Jackson ; and
your readers may judge of the disbrganised state of the
country when it is mentioned that there are no less than 279
persons for trial, and of these eighteen are charged with
arson, four with attacking a police barracks in arms, eight
with burglary, four with conspiracy to murder, and forty-
two with treasonable practices; fourteen are charged with
highway robbery, twenty-one with the awful crime of
murder, and fourteen with shooting at with intent to murder.
The prison, which has only 225 cells, has in it no less than
668 persons, including twenty persons already under sentence
of transportation. No wonder that Judge Jackson desig-
nated the calendar as one of the most awful he had ever
known. I did not hear yet if the treasonable cases will be
_disposed cf, 'but the murder cases are very heavy, and
several men are to be put on trial for the brutal butchery
of three bailiffs in one night, merely because they were keep-
ing some corn distrained for poor-rates."
Have I not' stated enough earnestly to recommend to the
consideration of this portion of the empire the social con-
dition of Ireland (Hear)—to lead us to address ourselves
to the state of Leland in that spirit of forbearance and con-
ciliation which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman so
powerffilly and justly recommended?—(Hear, hear.) The
portion of Ireland within which the greatest distress prevails,
which chiefly comprises those unions that are generally
called " the distressed unions," because they require extrin-
sic aid, is included mainly in the provinces of Munster and
Connaught, but to those provinces I wish to add the county
of Donegal, because, from its geographical position, I think
it partakes more of the character of Connaught, and of parts
of Munster, than it does of the province to which it is imme=
diately attached. Now, the population of Munster in 1841,
when the last census was taken, was 2,396,000; the popula-
tion of Connaught amounted to 1,418,000; that of Donegal
to nearly 300,000. The total population of that district
—and that would be drawing a line I think from
Donegal to near Waterford—exceeded 4,000,000 in 1841.
So far, therefore, as numbers are concerned, their interest
and their welfare must be objects of the deepest anxiety.
—(hear, hear.) Now, before I refer to the condition of Ire-
land as it exists at the present moment, influenced by recent
causes, namely, by the failure for four successive years of
that species of food upon which the Irish people mainly rely,
I wish shortly to advert to the condition in ten years ante-
cedently, when no such causes were in operation. I will re-
vert to a period, not only before the influence of famine was
felt, but a period—and I do it purposely—when Ireland
was in full possession of that agricultural protection, the
withdrawing of which the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man seems to think has aggravated her condition. In the
full possession of it, what was the condition of the la-
bourer in Ireland? and what was the condition of landed
property ? Till very recently, when wheat was, I think, at
60s. the quarter, the duty upon the import of foreign corn
had been not less than 205.; it was reduced in 1842, but at
the period of which I have been speaking, so far as pro-
tection conferred benefit on Ireland, the law in force between
1828 and 1842 was the law by which the agricultural state
of Ireland was affected. Now, 'berm% the influence of famine
could be felt, and before protection was removed, what was
the condition of—l can hardly call them the labouring poor
of Ireland—rather the destitute and suffering poor, ?—( Hear,
bear.) The report of Lord Devon's Commission is dated
February 1, 1845; and what does it say? 1 wish to rely not
upon observations of my own, but upon the testimony of men
connected with Ireland—men of the highest character—men
cosversant with the social condition of Ireland; that com-
mission included the names of Mr. Redington, Mr. Wynne,
Mr. G. A. Hamilton, and Sir It. Ferguson; and it would be
impossible to name four gentlemen whose testimony is more
entitled to consideration from their high character, and from
their local knowledge.—(Hear, hear.) They observe, that
although agricultural improvement was rapidly advancing,—
" We regret, however, to be obliged to add, in most parts of
Irelands there seems to be by no means a corresponding ad-
vance in the condition and comforts of the labouring classes.
A reference to the evidence of most of the witnesses will
show that the agricultural labourer of Ireland continues to
suffer the greatest privations and hardships; that he con-
tinued to depend upon casaul and precarious employment
for subsistence; that he is hadly housed, badly fed, badly
clothed, and badly paid for his labour." In the second
volume of a very useful digest of the evidence there
is a reference to a very curious document, which was
prepared by those who made out the census in Is4l,
dividing the houses of Ireland into four different classes,
the fourth-class consisting of " mud-cabins, with only
one room ;" they ascertained what proportion of the in-
habited houses of Ireland were of that fourth 'class;—
and, observe, this account could have no reference to any-
thing posterior to the Ist of February, 1815. It is stated
that "it may be assumed that the fourth class houses are
generally unfit for human habitation ;" arid yet, it would
appear, taking the best circumstanced districts in this re-
spect, in the county of Down, 24 7-10ths per cent., or about
one;fourth of the population, lived in houses of this class,
whilst in Kerry the proportion is 66 7-10ths, or about two-
thirds of the whole; and taking the average of the entire
population of Ireland, as given by the Census Com-
missioners, we find in the rural districts about 43
per cent. of the families, and in the civic districts
about 36, inhabiting houses of this fourth class.—(Loud
cries of "Hear.") But I should wish particularly to take
_the mot:an-lion of such houses in those distressed unions that
are now depending for the support of a great number of the
inhabitants upon the pecuniary relief you afford them;
and 1 find that in Donegal the houses of this class were
47 per cent. of the whole number; in Leitrim 47 per
cent.; in Roscommon, 47; in Sligo, 50; in Galway, 52; in
Limerick, 55 ; in Cork, 56; in Clare, 56 ; in Mayo, 62 ; and
in Kerry, 66. That was the state of affairs before Ireland
was visite.: with that dreadful calamity; the first appearance
of which was in the autumn of 1845.—( Hear, hear.) Now,
what was the condition of Ireland with regard to landed
property and the tenure of landed property? There was
laid upon the table of the House a short time since • a return
from the Register-office of the Court of Chancery for
certain years; lam now speaking of the position of the
landed proprietors, the nominal proprietors, and I
will not take the years 1845, 1846, or 1847, but
again I will go back to a time when there were heavy duties
upon the import of foreign corn, and when Ireland bad
whatever advantages protection could bestow. What was
the condition of the landed proprietors then, or at least
of several estates? I will take the year 1844. The number
of estates under the management of the Court of Chancery
then was 874, their yearly rental being 748,0001.;
the arrears, when the receivers were first appointed, were
34,500/.7 when they had last accounted the arrears had in-
creased to 380,8001. • the costs paid by the receivers were
17,3401.; and out olthat yearly rental of 748,0001. what do
you think was the sum annually expended in improvements
upon the estates ?-2,5725 (Hear' hear.) With regard to
estates under the management of the Court of Exchequer,
I am obliged to take the years 1844-45-46-47, because the
returns for those years are given collectively, and not sepa-
rated; the number of estates under the management of
that court in those four years was 448, their yearly rental
being 155,400/. ; the arrears when the receivers were first
appointed were 61,700/. ; when they had last accounted the
arrears were 171,8001. ; the law costs paid by the receiver*
were 38,0371., and the amounts expended in improvements
was absolutely—nothing I—(Hear, hear.) At least, in the di-
vision appropriated to the statement of the amount expended
in improvements I find no return whatever; every other co-
lumn is duly filled up, but there is nothing there.—(Hear.)
Now, are Gentlemen aware what is the condition of an es-
tate managed by the Court of Chancery ?—(" Hear, hear,"
and a laugh.) Do you know what the term means ?
(Hear.) I had—l can hardly call it good fortune—l had the
misfortune to hear an account orthe precess from a most in-
telligent Gentleman, given by him when a Member of this
House, Mr. Guinness— (Hear) and he certainly spoke with
the highest authority, for he Kas himself a receiver under the
Court of Chancery; but he was not influenced by any parti-
ality to give testimony unduly favourable to its manage-
ment. He said he was receiverfor an estate in Cork and Tippe-
rary, the rental of which exceeded 2,000 a-year ;it had been
under his care for 21 years ; ft was partly in that county re-
specting which I have already given a melancholy detail of
crime; in the course of the 21 years not one shilling had
been expended to improve the condition of the tenantry.
He gave an account also of an estate in Mayo; the rental
was 4,5001. a-year • the estate had been nine years under
his management, and 1681. was all that had been expended
to improve that estate.—(Hear, hear.) There was an-
other estate in Westmeath, the rental of which was 10,600/.,
and that estate had been tea years under his management;
he had received from it more that 100,000/., and out of that
sum not 600/. had been expended in improvements daring
the whole period.—(Hear, hear.) But what effect did even
that 600/. produce? Nothing bad been expended till within
the last three years, in each of which their had been 2001.
laid out, and that paltry outlay enabled bins to recover
2,600/. of old arrears on the estate, 6(0/. in the first year, I
think, and 1,000/. in each of the other two. I have referred
to the state of things before 1844 fir the purpose of suggest-
ing this inquiry—whether such a condition of landed pro-
perty can be of any benefit either to the owner, the encum-
brancer, or the country?—(Hear, bear.) To this state of
things in Ireland, with regard to the great mass of her popu-
lation, and with regard to the tenure of landed property,
there supervened the greatest calamity which in the history,
of mankind ever visited a country—l mean the four succes-
sive failures of that species of subsistence on which the great
mass of the people of Ireland lived.—(Hear.) What in-
fluence had that great calamity upon the condition of the
people? I think what follows is a most faithful accountthe of
the condition in which the first year of famine found
people of Ireland in the west and south : .
attached. to their
" Clustered in villages, a plot of ground
attre for potatoes,
cabins, and a portion of a field hired by
was but a wretched one : and when the
as their means of living, in the best of
ftrminneianseetheaeimr
came,
denthcee
were left without subsistence
manu-
factures to fall back upon, they
o y rootmassthe they hadf
rottenness,been
h to
employment, cultivate for:ofood be-
came
bounty of the empre, t
f of the poor. Such forma and without resources,i fihteoclohjeecrittsyfoorf
tthheehaeidnepvreolvele'dte,danbyd
the
law now in force for the relief
higher in the socia scale,
wrThat
nu-
merous
livedi e cal ad e
eisns
corfi pt
villages.thieon r eocfi pßt ihue
ent tptaohoeefrr
eer relief."
ei
are
stf a
ak'
ne by this calamity
consisting of those who had small
holdings of land, to the extent of three or four acres:—
ther class a little
"Another class consists of those who had a small bolding
of land, two, three, or more acres, or who, with several others
had joint tenancy (the rundale system), the
allotments a smallbeingtments farm
in
chequered, a patch here and a patch there
without a fence, a slight difference in level being made to
distinguish the plots. Holding in common, so all their ope-
rations were in common ; none tilled his laud before his neigh-
bour, and on certain fixed days the work of the seasons
began. The tillage was of the rudest description ; green
crops were unknown ; a crop of potatoes, then of oats, pota-
toes again, oats, perhaps barley, and often two or three grain
crop. in succession, was the course pursued, except near the
towns. A cow or two and some pigs formed the stock; the
potato produce fed the family, the grain paid the rent; the
former was swept away by the blight, but aid'-by public
works and the succeeding measures of relief enabled many of
the poorest to struggle on for a time." Now we come to .
1848:-" Some of the potatoes which did not decay were
hoarded for seed, and planted; the next failure was partial:,
the patotoes would grow again. Courage was acquire_er.!
d
the thought; and, in 1848, the most extraordinary efforts
were made to put down a crop. Potato-seed was sought for
with
some avidity,eeeeet
andie h iegoliwp;nicdesevpeary
paid feovraiitiehllet
to put a crop in the ground. Many staked their all on this
cherished root, and lost—the blight came, and more wither•
ing ruin than before."—(Hear, hear)
we are referring to—they staked their all on the euitivati
This was the condition of the people of Ireland at the periooi
articlew as
a last
wer ee
ff
soldo
In
of the potato; "the kligh4 me, Mad wore withelog

dore."—(Hear, hear.) Now, what has been the in-
of the successive failures of the potato that have
een place, combined with the operation of the poor-law,
Nith the landed property of Ireland? All the encum-
nces existing in 1844 have been aggravated by the ina-
fb 3' to pay rent, and also by the imposition of poor-rate.—
Mar, hear.) The account of the condition of landed pro -
ttty in 1844, which I have read to you, would but faintly
Pict the condition of that property at the present moment.
rums
have sunk still more deeply under encumbrances
y the arrears ef rent charges, and also by the arrears
kat due for the support of the poor. What is the pre-
condition of a great part of Ireland? Of the 21 unions
it Often referred to in this debate ten are hovering between
"necessity for demanding relief and relying upon their
/it: exertions. These 21 unions, comprising an immense
rich
and a great population, are in the financial condition
fth I shall presently describe ; in 18 of the 21 you have
Lvela obliged to supersede the local exertions of the gentry,
witi their affairs you are now administering, not by
,t4e natural local functionaries interrsted in imposing the
i
Lle and in checking excess, but by vice-guardians, who, I
eve, are discharging their duties most zealously and most
Tl
"Ithfully.—(Hear, hear.) In the whole 21 unions the ex-
talditure for the year ending the 29th of September, 1848,
as 468,1011.; the net amount of debt on that day not pro-
Med for was 123,9851. ; there being, therefore, for that year,
illicluding the expenditure and the outstanding debts, a sum
,592,000 f. for the relief of the poor. How was that expen-
:4lre met? Was it possible to meet it by. their own unaided
!oils? I believe it was not; and you wisely met it—what-
her might be the objection to such a course in principle—
'4ll, er than suffer any portion of the Queen's subjects to
;Irv, e, by an advance, partly from private benevolence, and,
l' en that was exhausted, from the public Treasury.—(Hear,
.r) The rate collected was only 199,0001. The amount
nplied by the British Association and by the Treasury was
114,800/. The funds of the British Association are, I appre-
'd, expended. You have not now that source to rely upon.
I<hiust be made up by extrinsic aid, and the Treasury is the
fat
from which that aid can come.—(Hear, hear,)
t is the general condition of the 21. unions; but I shall
kfeir to the state of one or two of them in detail. Take the
tlebar Union. The population of this union is 61,000, and
he maximum of persons who received relief in 1847 was
•600. Here is an account of the condition of t bat union :
Succesive years of famine have told fearfully on the cir-
Zrastances of all classes. Amongst the highest rated im•
Rhone
lessors are the names of no less than nine proprietors
ililose estates are under the supervision of the Court of
aticery, and managed by receivers. The encumbrances
and improvidence, perhaps, of former years, accumulating
'Pon the difficulties of the last three seasons, appear to have
trldered extrication hopeless in these cases."
Take next the Clifden union. That union presents the ex-
-I,l:aordinary fact that whilst the net annual value of the land
;19.9861. there has been land thrown up to the landlords to
e net value of 9,445/ (Hear, bear) and occupiers, with-
iltany means whatever, to the net value of 1,67 n. ; the
4141 value being no less than 11,1211 a year • thus three-
S of the whole net value of the union were thrown up in
, S
'4lequence of inability to meet the demands for poor-rate,
4411,1 of unwillingness to incur fresh charges.—(Hear, hear.)
the grand
to her Majesty has recently been presented from
grand jury of the county of Cork, in which it is said;—
,4 The grand jury should not conceal from the Govern-
, 'est their solemn conviction that the county is not able to
1p this money; that this inability is attested by the fact
ti:4t there are in this county thousands of acres of land
fat
out of cultivation, and wholly waste at this moment ;
'l'g two of their baronial rate-collectors threw up their
tPPeintments at last assizes, and that one barony of these,
o
Staining 89,986 acres, is without a collector from that
time to the present, it being impossible to get any one to
blalertake the collection, the entire barony being alleged to
waste."
"re what are our prospects?—(Cheers.) Observe what is
5o altered condition of insolvent landed property with re-
-letice to solvent property. since the passing the poor-
W•—(Hear, hear.) Previous to the passing of the poor-
11w each property, whether solvent or insolvent, stood alone.
I „ 1e insolvent property, neglected by the tenants' inability to
rent, and under general mismanagement, did not
it did
affect the solvent estates in their neighbourhood
; did in its consequences visit them indirectly, for no doubt
there was felt to some extent the contagion of mismanage
went and misfortune; but no immediate direct prejudice was
laitained. Now, however, under the poor-law the solvent
,fate becomes responsible for the insolvency of the insol-
,,ltit estate.—(Hear, hear.) I am speaking to Englishmen
Po are not so familiar with the details of this question as
the Irish gentlemen, to whom I am obliged for the patience
with which they listen to my statements; but I ask those
whoare connected with this part of the empire what are we
, do ?—( Hear, hear.) Is it true, that in one barony they
n. unable to appoint a collector because the lands are waste ?
q a true that of land to the annual value of 19,9861. in one
:Ilion, an amount to the extent of 11,0001. has been thrown
IP, and that nine large properties are in the condition which
~.have described to you, on the authority of Mr. Guinness ?
,(ilear, hear.) Why, it these statements are true, the in-
reney will go on extending till all the solvent estates are
Zerged in one common ruin.—(Hear, hear.) Then what is
Lod
position of the poor?—(Hear, hear.) Every acre of
'A.nd thrown out of cultivation is aggravating the evil, is
tear.)
the means of future subsistence.—(Hear,
k„e4r-) What will be the position of that barony, with,
Lu,ooo acres lying waste?—(Hear.) Do not let us fancy there
hope in a good potato harvest.—( Hear, hear.) You may
're a fruitful potato harvest in 1849. If you have there
will be foolish reliance placed on it, and the spring of 1850
will exhibit a most determined effort to perpetuate the cul-
tivation of that root.—(Heir, hear.) Every expense that
,
i be spared will be avoided for the purpose of collecting
ted and providing subsistence from the potato for 1851.
this way you may go on for a time; but after the warn-
s we have had for four successive years, can we have any
anee that the potato will afford even a temporary relief?
'pear, hear.) My belief is that it will only perpetuate
vicious system so long followed.—( Hear, hear.) I t may
teeibly for a time diminish the demands of the Treasury,
I.t I doubt if anything but evil will be the result of a pros-
ntle potato harvest in 1849. The truth is, we are now
Letiberating and acting on one of the most extraordinary
ekes in the history of the world, and it is absolutely neces-
ry to consider—indeed we shall be forced to consider—what
7 to be done in such circumstances, unless we are resolved
1? Make up our minds to travel over again this vicious circle
4 which we have so long moved—unless we are pre•
Pared to trust to the potato harvest instead of endeavouring
1
L" bring about the gradual introduction of cereal crops
"tong the farmers of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) You are
taW feeding about 100,000 people in Ireland—l know not
e exact number—but you are enabled to feed them, because
;411 have removed every impediment to the introduction of
ird•—(Cheers.) If that law, which in 1846 I was enabled
repeal, the law of 1842, had been now in operation, there
;Quid have been a duty of 10s. a quarter on the intro-
!duction of Indian meal ; but that Indian meal is the substi-
ine for the potato by which you are now enabled to keep
to and soul together—(Hear, hear)—and you are enabled
`o keep body and soul together at an expense to the Impe-
' gal Treasury of Id. a day for each man. [The CHANCEL-
;'()It of the EXCLIEQUER—"HardIy so much."] The great
ter
you have to solve is, by what means will you provide
ar the substitution of a higher and more certain description
"4 food than the potato you have hitherto relied upon?
:(Hear, hear.) I believe that few tempted by the pecuniary
ring will be inclined to take the chance of the potato
"gain; but you must do much during the interval that must
apse before cereal substitutes can be introduced.—( Hear.)
That will be a long interval. The acre of land that will
produce potatoes to support a certain number of persons
will not support half the number if sown with grain.
Greater care will Le required for grain in the cultivation of
,he land. exhausted by potato culture, and in its present
Ire unfit for the cultivation of cereal crops.—(Hear, hear.)
t is is a matter of calculation. If you are to substi-
11te a cereal crop for the potato, no person holding a farm
tinder five acres can support his family.—(Hear, bear.) There
sot
estates where there are 180 tenants occupying land of
'lot more than five acres. They have grown corn enough to
1443, the rent, and lived upon the potato ; but they cannot
sO that any more.— ( Hear, hear.) If you encourage them
:4 grow corn instead of potatoes they will not be able to
11Ppert their families. In the meantime you must keep
these 180 families; and already, no doubt, many of them
that4re finding their way to the United States. Seeing, then,
a long time must elapse before cereal crops can be
raised, during which something must be done for these far-
lahers is there, I would ask, no alternative for Great Britain ?
24 'she no alternative but to bear her portion of the
11• burden? Now, if Ireland comes forward, in the spirit
of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) to-night, and
manifests a disposition to bear her full share of the
treden—nay, if she will make a great exertion to repayonly
the just debt she owes us on account of the union work-
'oases —this will lead England all the more readily to co-
operate with her in adopting some decisive measure for ex-
iricating her from her difficulties.—(Cheers..) But what
Co urse shall we pursue? If I offer any suggestion whatever,
the last thought that will enter my mind will be a wish to
give any embarrassment to the Government in any attempt
VeY may make to solve the problem before them.—( Hear.)
rut I think that something may be done, some course taken
to the purpose of dealing with those distressed unions.—
(Rear.) The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Napier) misunderstood
me if he thought that I said a mere substitution of one pro-
trietary for another would at once solve the mystery. I
ad no such intention. The Hon. Gentleman did not hear
the account I have been giving of the management of
ended property in. Ireland. If he bad be would have been
„convinced that, whether or no the substitution of a new
qopri:tary will cure all the evils of Ireland, the condition
of landed property there, especially that placed in the Court
of Chancery and the Court of Exchequer, is such as to
afford conclusive reasoning that even if we were speaking
14 a time of prosperity we should be bound to make some
'igorous efforts to relieve the landed proprietors from such
4ocumbrances as I have spoken of. —(Hear hear.) I feel as
much convinced as any man that no single measure will be
Sufficient for the purpose of redeeming Ireland %but it, at the
Same time, appears to me that there would be an advantage
In taking some immediate course with regard to the super-
Mtendence and management of those districts of Ireland
Which are most distressed. As I said before, you have at
present no advantage from local management. You are not
present
the local functionaries to undertake the duty of su-
, Nrintendence. Eighteen of these unions are already go-
!erned by vice-guardians. I suggested, the other evening,
the appointment of a commission for undertaking the general
charge and superintendence of the affairs of those unions.
Subsequent reflection has induced me to think that that is
the best course you can now p.ursue. I would attempt to
Oring the affairs of all these unions under one general con-
trol and superintendence. I would have a commission ap-
kointed by the Government—having the confidence of the
Government—composed of men on whom they can rely—
and deriving. their authority from the Government; being
ho imperium in imperio, but acting in concert with the Go-
l'ernment, and whose duty it should be to apply themselves,
Without delay, to the condition of those unions. I would
Propose that that commission should discharge its duties on
the spot. I believe that there would be the greatest advan-
tage if you could, as I have no doubt you could, prevail on
Men of the highest character and the greatest experience of
the management of estates in England, who are politically
connected with you, and in whom both you and the country
Would have confidence--I believe it would be of the greatest
advantage if you could prevail upon such men to devote
themselves to the consideration and to the discharge of the
duties that would necessarily belong to a department of that
nature. If they went to Limerick and there saw the state
of things with their own eyes, and entered into persona
communication with the parties there—(Hear, hear)—it
Would in my opinion be a most advantageous mode of pro-
ceeding. They would judgefor themselves, and not through
the intervention of other agents; and they would be able to
811bIllit to you measures which I have no doubt would be
Well deserving of your consideration. I would advise you to
Place under the charge of that.Comtnission all the various
measures which have been suggested for the mitigation of
this great calamity. I would contrive to act upon some
combined and concerted system. You have grants of seve-
ral descriptions placed under the control of the Board of
orks. There are grants for the improvement of the land
Y draining, and for the execution of public works. It ap•
Pears to me that the application of those grants in these dis-
tressed unions should be made upon some system ; that there
should be entire concert between the Commission which
asuggest and the vice-guardians of the Board of Werks. I
ao not mean that the Commission should supersede the
•Roard of Works, but that the application of the grants to
m ;u different districts should be made with a view to one

great object—namely, the laying of a foundation for a better
state of things.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
is wrong in supposing that the only measure contemplated
in 1846 was one to import food. In 1846 we proposed, and
her Majesty's Government of that day were enabled to pass
into law a Bill to authorise the advance of public money to
a limited amount to promote the improvement of land in
Great Britain and Ireland by the application of drainage;
and no less a sum than 2,000,0001. was granted for Great
Britain, and 1,000,0001. to Ireland, for that purpose. It
appears to me that this Commission should also take into
consideration the policy of diminishing the pressure of dis
tress which is now felt by means of emigration. We have
the greatest colonial empire that there is on the face cf the
earth. In several of our colonies there is a great demand
for labour. In Ireland there is an excess and a superfluity
of labour, which is continually counteracting all your exer-
tions for the mitigation of the present calamity. It appears
to me that by some combined system you might mitigate
this evil by emigration. I place less confidence in the
efficacy of this course than many. I am quite aware of the
enormous expense attending it, and of the necessity of great
caution in the application of such a remedy; but there is
one answer which is constantly made to any proposition of
this kind, and which is thought conclusive, but which I do
not consider to be entitled to all the weight that is generally
given to it. It is said—" Do not depend upon the State in
this matter; consider there is a vast amount of voluntary
emigration going on, and beware lest, by encouraging emi-
gration on the pa"t f the State, you interfere:with this volun-
tary emigration." I should certainly be unwilling to inter-
fere with such voluntary undertakings, at the expense and
under the direction of those proprietors who may feel an in-
terest in them, and who believe that they are relieving their
estates by engaging in them. But, at the same time, before
we admit that argument of voluntary emigration to be con-
clusive, let us inquire who are the voluntary emigrants.—
(Hear, hear.) Many of them are men who are taking
capital away—(Hear, hear)—and many of them are men
suffering under the apprehension that the increase of the
poor, and consequently of the poor-rates, will involve them
in the common calamity under which the insolvent unions
are suffering. Now, every man that you lose from Ireland
who takes away more capital than he does paupers whom
that capital would employ, is a dead loss to that country.—
( Hear, hear.) The comfortable. farmer, fearing the inva-
sion of this poor-law, and who is possessed of 401. or 50/.
capital—who sells his tenant-right holding in the north, and
transfers his capital to the United States or to Canada, con-
fers no benefit on Ireland by emigration, but he is withdraw-
ing capital which might be usefully employed in his own
country.—(Hear, hear.) There is another class of volun-
tary emigrants in whose expatriation I think we have no
right to rejoice—they are all that class of helpless paupers
who go out in a state of weakness and disease, the fruit of
starvation at home; and who inflict a positive evil on the
colonies.—(Hear, hear.) I believe you have in many re.
spects remedied some of the great evils attending emigra-
tion. I believe many useful precautions have been adopted
in respect to the means you have employed to preserve
health and to secure well-built and safe passage-ships; and
more particularly have you done this within the last year.
But I must say that I never read a more painful account of
this voluntary emigration system than that which I find in
a private letter of no later date than the 30th of November,
1847, bearing the signature of Mr. de Vere, and which letter
has been adopted as a public document by the Colonial-
office. This is the account which Mr. de Vere gives of
voluntary emigration of the comparatively destitute, and
in no records of the sufferings on board a slave-ship is
there anything to be found equal to it. He took his
passage in the steerage of an emigrant-ship. in order that
he might become acquainted with the condition of the emi-
grants, and he remained on board nearly two months;
and he says—
" Before the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an
altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor
people, men, women, and children, of all ages, from the
drivelling idiot of 90 to the babe just born, huddled to-
gether without light, without air, walloiving in filth, and
breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in
heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleep-
ng places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of
indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of
the disease; by their agonised ravings disturbing those
around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the
imagination, to imbibe the contagion ; living without food
or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual
charity, dying without the voice of spiritual consolation,
and buried in the deep, without the rites of the church.
The food is generally ill-selected, and seldom sufficiently,
cooked, in consequence of the insufficiency and bad construc-
tion of the cooking places. The supply of water, hardly
enough for cooking and drinking, does not allow washing.
In many ships, the filthy beds, teeming with all abomina-
tions, are never required to be brought on deck and aired ;
the narrow space between the sleeping berths and the piles
of boxes is never washed or scraped, but breathes up a damp
and fetid stench, until the day before arrival at quarantine,
when all hands are required to scrub up,' and put on a
fair face for the doctor and Government inspector. No
moral restraint is attempted, the voice of prayer is never
heard; drunkenness, with its consequent train of ruffianly
debasement, is not discouraged, because it is profitable to the
captain, who traffics in the grog."
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear. ') Such are the advantages of
voluntary emigration !—( Hear, hear.) Such a system of
emigration is a positive disgrace to this country, with its
great colonial empire, and great colonial resources for the
people. Though the removal of such a class of emigrants
may confer an advantage on the proprietors of the estates
from which they are sent, yet I consider those who send out
such persons do the greatest disservice to Ireland, because
on their arrival at the United States, or at Canada, they so
disgust the people of those countries, that they are induced
to throw impediments in the way of emigration and thus
is prevented that sound and healthy emigration which might
otherwise take place. Therefore, from the advantages of
that voluntary emigration which you wish to encourage, after
deducting the removal of those who carry with them capital
more than sufficient to support the persons they take with
them, you must also deduct all those voluntary emigrants
that do nothing but bring disgrace upon your system of
emigration. Without, therefore, entertaining too sanguine ex-
pectations from voluntary emigration, still I cannot but think
that having a superinten..ing local authority acting in concert
with an authority which is able to communicate with the
Government, and personally with the proprietors of estates,
and capable of seeing in what part of the country there is a
congestion of the population—for from those parts your
emigrants ought to be drawn—l cannot, I say, help think-
ing, having such an authority on the spot, acting in con-
cert with the Government, that you might greatly facilitate
voluntary emigration. But there is a great evil arising
from the want of full information on the part of the people
who emigrate.—(Hear, hear.) Just consider a poor man
leaving Ireland, and seeking a new abode 2,000 cr 3,000
miles from home—what comfort could we not give him by
imparting to him a little information as to the country to
which he is going, and even by giving him some slight pe-
cuniary aid besides ?—( Hear, hear.) Yes, I would not deny
him Government aid.—(Hear, hear.) I think it would be
politic to incur some expense for the purpose of facilitating
emigration, under certain conditions.—(Hear, bear.) You
tell us what has been done in Ireland by the Noble Lord
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and also by the
Marquis of Lansdowne. You tell us that they have reduced
the amount of the poor-rates on their estates by a well-
regulated system of emigration, and that they have thereby
increased a demand for labour, and have restored prosperity
and content among the people on those estates.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") What more do you say? Why,
that they are raising great sums from Ireland for the
purpose of promoting emigration. Well, Lord Palmerston
might be able to do this; and notwithstanding any diffe
rence of political opinion, I most willingly declare that I
consider the exertion which that Noble Lord has made to
relieve that district from the misery with which it has been
visited do him very great credit.—(Cheers.) But how many
gentlemen there may be in Ireland willing to make the
same exertions, if they had your assistance and
advice, and who would gladly follow the Noble Lord's
course, but that they cannot follow it !—(Hear, heir.) You
might go on increasing this voluntary emigration, and en-
couraging further remittances from emigrants in the United
States and Canada to their friends in Ireland. In
addition, therefore, to public works—to the encouragement
of fisheries, of drainage, and the improvement of land, I
think a Commission of the kind I have pointed out might
be the means of improving Ireland by a series of emigra-
tion, and that it ought to be among the first objects to be
adopted. I come now to another point to which I adverted
the other evening, and in regard to which I still entertain a
very strong feeling. In my opinion all these measures will
be ineffectual—all your measures of drainage, of local im-
provement, of increase of fisheries, of emigration—all will
be ineffectual, unless you can cure in some way or other
those monstrous evils which arise out of that condition of
landed property to which I adverted the other night.—
(Loud cheers.) If those estates producing 800,0034 with
arrears annually accumulating, are not to allow more than
2,003.10 be applied to the permanent improvement of the
land—if there are certain principles and forms of equity
sanctioned by the Court of Chancery which throw obstacles
in the way of any improvement in that respect, you may
feel assured that all your other exertions will be ineffec-
tual. I think it would be an inestimable advantage to
every insolvent—and to every nominal owner, and to every
encumbrancer who is receiving nothing—that it would, in
short, be an advantage to everybody except the receivers
under the Court of Chancery, and the lawyers who are
dividing the sums received from these estates amongst them-
selves—(Cheers and laughter)—if by some process which
should not be inconsistent with the principles of equity and
of fair dealing, you could relieve those estates from the con-
trol of the Court of Chancery, and permit them to be pos-
sessed by men of capital who would embark in their cultiva-
tion with new hopes and fresh vigour.—(Cheers.) In my
opinion, you would do more by that Act for the advancement
of Ireland than by any other that can at present be adopted.
I will just contrast with the hopeless condition of some parts
of Ireland—hopeless on account of the extent of those en-
cumbrances—the case of an estate. an account of which I
have before me in a letter which I will read to the House.
It is a letter from a very humble man, giving an account of
what he has done in. Ireland, although having no connexions
in that country, and undertaking a settlement in a remote part
of Ireland, but bringing capital enough for the cultivation of
the land. It is written in a simple style ; but if you will devise
measures to enable persons to follow, safely and securely, the
cultivation of land in Ireland, you may judge what may be
done from the plain relation contained in thisstatement. I re-
ceived it from a Lancashire man. It is dated March 23, and
be is giving an account of an undertaking to which he livid
been a party on the west, coast of Ireland. " He had taken
on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland."—(Hear,
hear) Well, I am recommending that you should give
facilities—(Loud cheers)—to men to obtain a permanent
interest in the land.—(Cheers.) Well, he says—" He had
taken on perpetuity a lease on the west coast of Ireland.
He had planted four of his sons there. To encourage
habits of industry one is buying all the stockings brought
to him to send to England; another has purchased a hooker
of 25 tons, and is endeavouring to encourage fishing on
the coast ; another was employing upwards of 100 labourers
daily last year, but on account of being heavily taxed for
his improvements turned them off with the exception of
10 or 12.—(Hear, hear.) From the fourth he sends a
letter addressed to himself, dated the 16th of March, 1849."
This is the account which his son gives of his -proceedings
in this adventure in a part of Ireland which we suppose
to be so wild and swage that it is impossible to live in
it with any profit or advantage., He says—" The more
I see, the more am I convinced that this country has the best
prospects of any place I know of.— (Laughter.) There is
every desideratum for the enjoyment of a contented and
prosperous life." He Is writing this in the midst of all the
misery surrounding him : - " I see no reason why persons
should not support themselves entirely upon the produce of
their land here. Of beef, mutton, pork, an almost inex-
haustible supply can always be had. Flour, oatmeal, &c.,
should all come off the farm. A chandler's bill should never
be known, for we have already manufactured more than a
winter month's supply from the slender means we had. In
fact, I think that:rent, groceries, with some extras for cloth-
ing, &c., should be the only expenditure of a person in this
country, when once properly settled. For the yearly sum of
5/. enough fuel may be obtained, even to superfluity ; and, as
for vegetable, any plant that comes under that denomina-
tion will flourish .here with ordinary care." Well, contrast
this man's exertions with that estate yielding 10,5004, and
which, out of • 10,0001. received, had paid only 6001.
towards its peimanent Improvement, and then I ask
Which is the best means of increasing agricultural prosperity

of a country,—to permit an estate to be cultivated under a
management like this man's, or to be under the management
of the Court of Chancery?—(Hear, hear.) I mentioned
before, the management of property to a certain extent
by the Commission to which I have alluded. Now, no
man has less confidence than I have in the economy of an
undertaking on the part of a Government. So far from ad-
vising this Commission entering upon the employment of
unprofitable labour, I think it ought to have for its main
object the reverting to the principle of the Bill of 1838, and
make the workhouse a test of destitution in Ireland. I can-
not believe that there can be any other effectual test. I have
not the slightest confidence in a labour rate. I certainly
have confidence in encouraging local improvement where there
is reproductive labour; but I have not the least confidence
in making labour the test of destitution; and I believe that
if all the funds of Great Britain were obliged to support the
destitute in Ireland, upon your attaching labour as a condi-
tion of relief, that you would do the greatest mischief to Ire-
land ; that your test would not be effective, but that there
would be such an interference with the ordinary labour
market as to involve all in one common state of destitution.
—(Hear, hear.) But, seeing what difficulties you have to
encounter in effecting the substitution of a cereal crop for the
potato crop, I cannot say that I should be altogether against
such an undertaking by way of setting an example of what
an improved method of agriculture can do.—(Hear, hear.) I
am told that the Lord-Lieutenant has done great good by
encouraging the delivery of lectures on the subject. Why
not do it on a greater scale? Why not on a limited scale
set an example of an improved system of management?
There are in one union 4,000 able-bodied paupers—now, if I
had 4,000 able-bodied men, and if I could employ them to
open a road to an inaccessible part of the country, I think it
would be better than to make them break stones. I admit
most distinctly that there is no test you can rely upon ex-
cept the workhouse test, but certainly I would not exclude
altogether, supposing such a local commission as I have
suggested were appointed, the cultivation of an estate for
the purpose of serving as an example to the people what
was the best mode of substituting a corn for a potato crop.
Some Hon. Gentlemen say they never beard of such a thing,
and they ridicule the idea of managing estates by a Govern-
ment Commission. But what did you do in the case of the
forfeited estates after the rebellion of 1745? You took the
whole of the forfeited estates after that rebellion, and you
appointed a commission for their management.—( Hear, hear.)
I think that it was a cumbrous commission. Probably their
duties were too much for them. The members consisted of
a different class of persons from that which I would recom-
mend to be employed for the management of estates in Ire-
land. But the principle of that Act was a most wise one.
Those estates were subject to heavy encumbrances. It was
not a case of simple forfeiture of estates, and the Crown
taking unencumbered possession. The estates were sub-
ject to heavy mortgages and other charges. The trustees
were directed to pay off the mortgages and the other bur-
dens ; and they were instructed to manage the estates as satis-
factorily as possible. The Act under whizh this was done is the
25;h of George 11., char. 41 (1752), and is entitled "An Act
for annexing certain forfeited Estates to the Crown inalien•
ably, and for making satisfaction to the lawful creditors
thereupon, and to establish a method of managing the same,
and applying the rents and profits thereof to the better civi-
lizing and improving the Highlands of Scotland, and pre..
venting disorder there for the future." That Act provided,
first, for the satisfaction of the creditors, so far only as the
value of such lands. It next empowered the Commissioners
to grant leases, and, where estates comprehended whole
parishes, to divide the same into more parishes, and grant
competent provision to the new ministers. It also authorised
them to erect schools on the said estates for instructing young
persons in reading and writing, and in the several branches
of agriculture and manufacture, and to supply schools with
the material for agriculture and manufactures, and for the
raising of flax. Now, I should not at all object to-schools
being established in the west of Ireland for the pur-
pose of instructing the youth in agriculture— (Hear, hear)—
nor would I think the encouragement of the raising of flax
an undesirable object.—(Hear, hear.) But the question
which I am at present considering is whether such a com-
mission can be instrumental in promoting the transference
of property. I would advise no rash proceeding in this re-
spect. I see no advantage in throwing into the market an
immense quantity of property, even if it could be disposed
of.—(Hear, hear.) I think that the throwing of a great
quantity of property simultaneously. into the market would
inevitably have the effect of depressing the market. I would
therefore advise the recourse to no such proceeding. But
the question is whether such a commission would not facili-
tate the voluntary transference of property. Last year you
admitted the principle.—(Hear, hear.) You passed an Act
for the purpose of promoting the transference of encumbered
estates. By that Act you gave power to the owners of such
estates to sell, and you gave power to a single encumbrancer
to sell, with the consent of the Court of Chancery—you ad-
mitted the advantage ofsuch a system as I am now advocating ;
but what I greatly fear is that the mechanism of your Act
was so cumbrous that it will not be able to effect your de-
sign.— ( Hear, hear.) Since you have decided, then, upon
the principle that the retention of many of those estates is
of no advantage to the owners. that they are of no advan-
tage to the encumbrancers, that they are a positive evil with
respect to the solvent proprietors in their neighbourhood, and
that they are prejudicial to the public interest, what I now
recommend you to consider is, whether you ought not still
further to facilitate the voluntary transfer of encumbered
estates ; for I am convinced that if you rely upon the cum-
brous process of the Court of Chancery, you will not give
effect to your own designs.—(Hear. bear.) I know that I
am rendering myself liable to the charge of meddling with
the established rights of property—l know it may be said
that unprofessional men in their attempts to secure the ad.
vantages of the introduction of new capital into the country
are apt to disregard vested interests. But I wish to confine
myself, as far as possible, within the limits sanctioned by, the
highest equity lawyers. lam speaking now of the principle.
It was said by the present Lord Chancellor (Cottenham)—
and I could not name a judge that ever sat in the Court of
Chancery of higher authority in matters relating to the
principles of equity jurisdiction—(Hear, hear)—the Lord
Chancellor, with respect to the principle of facilitating the
transference of Irish estates, said —_

" Unfortunately for Ireland, the landed property there, to
a large extent, was in a situation not only detrimental to
those who had an interest in the land, but almost injurious
to the community at large. A very large portion of it was
heavily encumbered by mortgages, charges' and other in-
terests; so that the ostensible owner could hardly be said to
have any estate in the land at all. When a man was really
the owner of an estate, he had both the means and the mo-
tive for improving it; but it was impossible for a landlord
whose income arising from his landed estate was intercepted
by mortgages and other, charges to discharge those duties
which a landlord should discharge. This was a most in-
famous state of things."
Another Lord Chancellor—an Irish Lord Chancellor (Lord
Campbell)—speaking of the tenure of Irish property, said—
" Titles in Ireland were in a most deplorable condition. In
Ireland the registers were exceedingly bad, and instead of
clearing up titles, and making them more certain, often in-
volved them in inextricable confusion."

Lord Langdale, the Master of the Rolls, said—
" The interference in such a case as the present is of the
same sort and character as all the other legislative interfer-
ence with private property for public purposes, and because
this interference is intended to secure the payment of debts,
or the performance of private obligations, which would not
otherwise be performed. It is not more, but somewhat less
objectionable than the interference with private property and
contract which is authorized by Acts for railways, docks, or
other public works."
. . . .

Now ihat is the principle supported by these eminent legal
authorities. As to your Bill of last session, I feel the greatest
doubts as to the working of it, and my fears are confirmed by
these remarks of the Muster of the Rolls:

" I entertain considerable doubts whether the cautious pro-
visions made by the Commons to prevent sales for less than
their value, are not only more than are necessary to effect
their object, but so stringent as to impair the efficiency of
the additional process which the amendments are intended
to provide." The Noble Lord, you observe. speaks with the
authority of a master.—(Hear, hear.) " Considering the
caveats, the notices (sometimes difficult, if not impossible to
serve), the valuations, the five years to elapse before a per-
fect and unimpeachable title can be obtained, the liabilities
as for breaches of trust, and the powers given to redeem, it
is manifest that the obstacles to sales under these provisions
are very great. Perhaps they may, in their application, be
found so great—in many cases where there is considerable
complication -as to make the additional process impractica-
ble, and to leave to him who desires to have the benefit of the
act that particular mode of obtaining it which was at first
provided by your Lordships."
No!, what was the benefit which Lord Langdale suggested
as a substitute for the imperfections of the Bill of last year ?
It was to go into the Court of Chancery.—(Hear, hear.) You
substituted a more simple process, which Lord Langdale
thought cumbrous and impracticable, and, as a remedy, he
suggested a suit in the Court of Chancery.—(Laughter.) It
is not for me to say a word inconsistent with the highest re-
spect for the Court of Chancery; but when the Master of the
Rolls says that the new process which you adopted would be
ineffectual, and that you must resort to the advantages,
afforded by the Court of Chancery, I may at least refer to the
Lord Chancellor, who presides over that court, as an autho-
city as to what that benefit would be. I find that the Lord
Chancellor thus expressed himself on this subject :
" He had been himself familiar with the practice of the
Court of Chancery for many years past, and he well knew
the great benefits which it conferred upon the public; but at
the same time he should own that he would not willingly
enter that court as a suitor, nor would he advise any of his
friends to do so, if they could, with propriety, keep out of
it (Great laughter.)
His Lordship was quite willing to enter the court as Lord
Chancellor, but not in any other capacity.—(Laughter.)
That is the opinion of the Lord Chancellor as to the remedy
which the Master of the Rolls thinks would be more effec-
tual than your Bill of last year. The Lord Chancellor would
not wish either to enter the court as a suitor himself, or
would not advise any of his friends to do so if they could pos-
sibly keep out of it. My Hon. and Learned Friend behind
me (Mr. Napier) has taken rather a statesman's than a
lawyer's view of this matter. I know that any lawyer could
get up and say that it would be utterly impossible to effect
what I want to have done. I would not stand before a
lawyer a single instant on such a point—(Laughter)—but if
you admit the principle, it would, I think, be better for all
parties to facilitate the transfer as much as possible.—(Hear,
hear.) Why are we to be deterred by legal difficulties, and
by all the chicanery of a court of equity, if we can effect an
object which we believe to be most desirable without taking
any step that is not consistent with equity and justice?
What did you do with the Land Improvement Act? You
enabled the Treasury to advance money for the improve-
ment of estates. lam only astonished how so useful an
Act was allowed ever to pass through both Houses.—
(Laughter.) Applying purely legal and equitable princi-
ples to it, here is a model of an Act. I believe the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who sits near me ( Mr. Stewart) pro-
pheaLA the failure of the Act. Here is the Act-10 and 11
Vie., c. 13—" Money may be advanced for the improvement
of estates in Ireland," with (all the incumbrances, and all
these different complicated tenures, the head landlord, the
intermediate landlord, and all the incumbrances. You want
to improve an estate, and you know that for all these par-
ties to give their consent is hopeless, and you provide, there-
fore, that notice should be given of the intention to improve,
and those parties can object if they please; then the paymaster
of civil services decides whether the objections are futile and
irrelevant; if they are so, he advances the money. He ad-
vances money on the estate, with all those complicated
tenures upon' it, and then there is a rent-charge fixed on the
estate. Now, suppose the rent-charge is not paid for two
years, how does the Crown proceed to recover this money?
The paymaster of the civil services, as soon as the rent-
charge has been in arrear two years, may apply in a sum-
mary manner to the Court of Chancery for an order for the
sale of all or a competent part of the land to defray the
charge. Now, what does the Court of Chancery do? " The
Court of Chancery shall be authorised to direct the pay-
master of the civil services. without any further process,
writ, or other proceeding, to raise by sale the amount of the
rent-charge due at the time of the sale, the surplus to be
paid to the owner or the Accountant-General of the Court of
Chancery, for the benefit of the parties interested. The pur-
chaser shall not be bound. to see to the application of the
money—any conveyance executed by the paymaster of
the civil service shall be binding, and conclusive,
-and give all estates -a. .right and title." Now,
that is the way in which you solved that difficulty.
The paymaster of the civil forces „says to the Lord Chan-
cellor, " here is an arrear of two years," aad the Chancellor

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