The Sun.
London, England, 1831-04-14 00:00:00

'he first question he put to
Tthheemnexwtaqs,ueswthioetnhweras,
whether
pthneeliamri tight
to
idered -the Bill brought forward as likely be heaset
lave that right delegated to those who paid ten pounds
—and their answer was, decidedly not—these were
~htoieetmying?wTeitnheeytshase„taiiedrriee:d4u—Nrnot.h'oe'
yf
Members
beenrisoyfionrg
he very last persons, whom they should wish. to have to
house representatives for them ; they would'rather have
wrsons in considerably higher ann more elevated Stations ;
iot boronehtnengers, borough proprietors, or shopkeepers,
ut persons of an entirely different character. As for
iimself, he hoped he should always be allowed to
state what he considered to be right in that
louse, because he " would rather be a dog, and
,ay the moon," !l-ian fill a scat there, and not
state what he conscientiously believed to be the
truth. Every man who had lived in Preston, if
lie even slept in a hay-loft, had a right to vote for ,
-he return of a Member of Parliament, and they'
vished the same universal suffrage to be extended to all.
Deeply did he regret to find that the lion. Member fur
Waterford was so altered in his language—that Mern-
.er who was returned on the express understanding
that he would advocate universal suffrage and vote
,y ballot. For his own part, if he were about
•.o suffer on a scaffold, the last thing he would
!all for would be universal suffrage and vote by
ballot. As for the Honourable Member for Worcester
saying he (Mr. H ) was the worst enemy Reform had—
he (Mr. Hunt) believed he was the worst enemy to that
sort of Reform that would satisfy the Host. Member.
_ _

General GASCOYNE considered it absolutely necessary
that the House should distinctly know, before the motion
was made for going into a Committee, what was to be
done with the number of ltiernhers who, by the preamble
of this Bill, were to he disfranchised. For his own part
he really did not understand it. .

Lord ALTHORP was not in the House when the
Noble Lord who bad brought-forward this measure made
some observations upon the_ point raised by the Gallant
General. He had no hesitation in stating what the feeling
of the Government was upon it. On looking at the dif-
ferent schedules, and. also at the different town!, Minis-
ters had found that, consistently with the rule they
had laid down for themselves, some additions to the
number they had proposed would necessarily have to
be made. They did not intend to depart .in
the slightest degree from the principle of, the Bill ;
but owing to the discovering little inaccuracies, ~
they found that they should have to increase the ,
number of Members to some little extent, though ti nothing
like that of 62. They bad never considered the nuns-
ber an essential part of the Bill, though they were
determined, if they could, to carry the proposition of
reducing the number. Supposing, however, it should
turn out to be the opinion of the House that the
Members should not be diminished, undoubtedly his Ma-
jesty's Ministers would not think that so great an in-
road on the principle of the Bill as to cause them
to throw it up, but they should he prepared to submit
to the House such populous towns as in their judgment.
ought to have the return of those Members given to
them. With respect to the rotten boroughs intended to
be disfranchised, they would think it an entire dereliction
of the principle of the Bill, if erty one Member that,
should be allowed to be returned were front mere no-
mination boroughs.
Lord STORMONT wished to put a question or two to
the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had spoken of further
conferring the right of representation on populous towns ;
did he also mean to confer it on populous counties? If to ,
towns only, were they to be towne solely in England, or
Scotland, or Ireland, or in all three?
Lord ALTHORP said that what he bad stated was
this :—That if, after his Majesty's Goiernment bad stated
the number of Members of which they proposed. the House
itaorgeeorn s tu,nithe House,
ber,th eon
; „c.oau division,
ld tiiei pshoulde
to decide f
confer
o r a
the
he
right of representation on certain populous towns and dis-
tricts. It was not their spontaneous proposition, but
under the circumstances which he had described, they
would not object to it. The object of his Majesty's Go-
vernment in the proposition which they had made swiss to
endeavour to preserve a just balance between towns and
counties. What he bad stated of the possibility of ex-
tending the right of representation applied principally to
England.
Mr. Alderman WOOD said that the party opposed to .
his Majesty's present Administration had expressed the.
greatest delight yesterday evening at the confusion into
which they imagined Ministers would be thrown by giving
way, as they considered it, on the question of Reform.—
He, however, could see no confusion ; he thought the ex-
planations which had been rade were perfectly satisfac-
tory, and that the measure would be improved by the cor-
rections whirls it was proposed to make in it.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said, that as to the principle of
proportion in the representation of England and the repre-
sentation of Scotland, that was put an end to on the Union
with Ireland. The simple question now was, where re-
presentation was most wanted. He confessed that he had
not heard any argument to satisfy him that any reduction
in the number of the Members of the House was neces-
sary. That was a question, however, which in no way
trenched upon the great principle of the measure. If it
should he considered desirable not to diminish the number
of the Members of that House, he trusted that the unre-
presented state of many important places atid districts in
Scotland would be considered. There was the city of
Perth, for instance. There was the town of Dumfries,
containing, with its suburbs, a population of above six-
teen thousand souls. There could be no reason why, if the
number of the Members of that House was to be kept up, -
such considerable places should not be represented.
Why not add to the number of Scotch counties as well as
of Scotch towns represented ? At the time of the Union
with Scotland, Scotland did not contribute above a fiftieth
part of the revenue; she now contributed a sixth or
seventh part. He should certainly have been satisfied
with more moderate Reform had it been proposed, but.
it was agreed on all hands that some Reform was neces-
sary; and from the northernmost part of Scotland to the
extremity of Cornwall, it was allowed that the people
were not fully represented. As to universal suffrage, did •
the Hon. Member for Preston venture to say that the
adoption of such a proposition would make bread dear.
(Yes, from Mr. Hunt.)—Let the Hon. Gentleman point
out how. The Hon. Member talked of having per-
sonally communicated with two hundred thousand per-
sons, who were dissatisfied with the Bill for not going far
enough. He (Mr. Fergusson) did not heieve that there
were two hundred thousand persons in the whole king-
dom of that opinion. There, no doubt, were many who
thought it went toe far. For his part; he had not heard.
of any who said the Bill was good for nothing, because
it did not give universal suffrage. Persons who uttered
such an opinion, ought not to have the elective franchise in
Preston. They were too ignorant to have it, Horne
Tooke said there were three descriptions of persons who
ought sot to have the elective franchise; namely, the ex-
tremely miserable, the extremely dependent, and the ex-
tremely ignorant; to which he added the extremely sel-
fish—a character that evidently belonged to the friends of.
the Hon. Member for Preston. He (Mr. Ferguson)
was decidedly of opinion that the principle of the Bill was.
approved of by the whole population of the empire.
Sir R. PEEL observed, that it was of great importance,
as this was Wednesday, and as the Bill was to go into a
Committee on Monday, that they should distinctly under-
stand the course which his Majesty's Government intended
to pursue, especially whether it was intended to be proposed
to make any additions to the number of representatives
for Ireland and Scotland. He earnestly hoped that the
English Members would not allow themselves to be be-
tray ed by any mistaken notions of liberality, into consent-
ing to such a proposition. He wished, therefore, to ask,
in the first place, whether it was inteuded to preserve the
existing proportion in the representation of the three king-
doms ? There was another point to be considered. At
the time thit his Majesty's Government proposed to add to
the number of Scotch and Irish representatives, they pro-
posed to deprive England of fifty or sixty of the represen-
tatives whom she was at present entitled to send to Par-
liament. Now this was a matter of great importance,
which ought to be distinctly and deliberately di-cussed.
He repeated his hope that the English representatives
would do their ditty to their country, and would not allow
such a proposition to be carried whiling, at least, previ-
ously discussing it. He begged to ask what course his
Majesty's Government intended to pursue ? He understood
them to say that there existed various mistakes in the
schedules with respect to the districts and boroughs to be
disfranchised ; and that if they adhered strictly to those
schedules, disfranchisement would fall upon places on which
it ought not to fall. Was it now intended to admit the
population of parishes as the test of disfranchisement or not?
And did his Majesty's Government now propose to take the
sense of the House on the question if the number of the
representatives of the people was to be reduced? He had
understood the Noble Lord to say, last night, that although
he did not mean to restore the proportion of the represen-
tatives for ehe.seyeral kingdoms established at the unions
wmelnand
Ireland
tlrhaenaSds
increase
eaet:
ndutheama t
fiiimndorrgei;nvezdu.
tatahlttihrvoi:wghaft.o_ll;
gckroint:dizi,:ei
in the House adverse to the redo= f h
Make it up to Eng-
,ier of representatires, he Pr,olf ,
_ils now it
appeared that it
land in some way or other. o
WWI
in the schedules A. and 8.,
Inediefarr. et* correct errors