The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-02 00:00:00

THE SUN, .LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 2, -1849.

.....
THE RATE IN AID.
(From the Cork Examiner.)
Lord John Russell's resolution, which fixes on the whole
land of Ireland a rate of 6d. in the pound for two years
to come, was carried in committee on Tuesday. It
will be the law of the land in a few days. The first
report of the committee will, of course, recommend
such a proceeding, and the principle ;rill then be
carried out in resolutions of the House, or in a Bill pro-
pared for the purpose. Lord John Russell rules this
committee with a high hand. In fact, they are only a
body for registering his edicts—passing his resolutions.
As to its being a deliberative assembly, we have no faith
in such a doctrine. We mention this merely to show
that the landlords, as a body, are utterly powerless with
the men now in office, and that whatever changes, or
amendments if you will, of the poor-law, shall be effected,
those changes or amendments, will not be the result of the
suggestions or deliberations of the landlords of Ireland.
It would be out of the way to attempt upholding this
6d. rate in aid, for national purposes, on any fixed prin-
ciples of equity. The necessity is the great justifying
cause for its adoption. And when we admit this neces,
sity to exist, in full and stringent force, all other argu-
ments are beside the question. If we admit that it is
the land of Ireland which must support the poor of Ire-
land, any modifications of this large truth cannot hurt
the principle. It was absurd to be drawing a line of
demarcation round the north, and segregating this pro-
vince, morally, politically, and religiously, from the other
provinces of Ireland. It was dividing the country
in twain, and giving separate interests, and separate no-
tions of prosperity and freedom to each. This, on the
face of it, was absurd. It was as if Yorkshire and De-
vonshire took it into their heads to be antagonistic to
each other. When we are told then of the North, or
rather of Ulster and Leinster, being up in fierce indig-
nation against this rate in aid, we must designate it as
more than folly; the poor of Ireland call imperatively on
the proprietors of the soil of the island to see that they
shall not die of hunger, and the British Minister and
British law will only laugh at the unavailing opposition,
when they have the power of decreeing. flow can this
be otherwise, when most of the unions in the west and
south are bankrupt, from having past through three
years of death of famine?
The substance of Lord John Russell's resolution, car-
ried by a majority of 17 to 7, after a long discussion, is
as follows:
That a rate of 6d. in the pound be struck imme-
diately in every electoral division in Ireland—the pro-
ceeds to be placed at the disposal of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, for the purposes to be hereinafter men-
tioned."
The correspondent of the Freeman says that—
" Some of the Irish popular Members (Mr. Fagan, I
understand, among the number), who are really anxious
to have the best possible amendments introduced into
the Poor-law Act, voted with the Government, because
they considered that the delay certain to come from the
examination of witnesses on the entire question of
rating, would prove most injurious to the interests of
the poor."
At the meeting, Mr. Reynolds moved that the vote in
aid should include a tax on all property in Ireland—that
of mortgagees and annuitants not excepted.
Lord John Russell said it might be a subject for con-
sideration whether annuitants should not be taxed; but
he thought no such rate as that contemplated could be
levied off mortgagees.
Sir Robert Fergusson submitted a prop6sition that a
tax of sevenpence in the pound on all property ought to
constitute the rate in aid. He thought this would be a
fair way to meet the question.
The resolution was not pressed, and the Committee
adjourned to Friday next.
The following are the names of the seven Members
who voted in the minority on the division which took
place in the Committee on Lord John Russell's reso-
lution, mentioned above :—Messrs. Bright, Monsell.
Adair, Stafford, Sir D. Norrey, Blackall, and O'Flaherty,

LAW INTELLIGENCE.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Mareh 1.

The House sat again to-day, to hear Scotch appeals.
The Peers present wcre the Lord Chancellor, Lord
Elphinatone, and the Bishop of Hereford.

BONAR V. MACDONALD.

The arguments on this part-heard appeal from the
decision of the Court of Session in Scotland were con-
cluded to-day, and their Lordships reserved their
judgment.

The examination of the witness was then proceeded
with, and he stated that in 1835 he saw some money in
the prisoner's hand, and he accounted for the possession
of it by saying that he was on sentry at night, and as a
gentleman was passing he seized him by the collar and
put him into his sentry-box, and either got or took his
money.
Cross-examined—Witness did not give any informa-
tion to the commanding officer or to the police that the
prisoner had committed this robbery. Of course he
thought it was a robbery. Witness had been a corpo-
ral, but was degraded to the ranks for not reporting
himself to the commanding officer, and for being absent
from duty.
Joseph Walker, also a private in the same company
as the prisoner, proved that on the night of the 9th of
January he heard him say that he had given a gentle-
man in charge, and that he had got notes and gold and
silver upon him, and if he had been in the "colour" post
he would have had the lot. Ho also heard the prisoner
say that if Mr. Sellers had given him a sovereign he
would have let him go. The prisoner had repeatedly
told him, after he came off guard, that he had got money
from people. He had said this to his knowledge three
times, and witness had seen him with a sovereign in his
hand which he represented he had so obtained.
Cross-examined—Some of his comrades might have
done the same thing. He did not wish to speak against
his comrades. He never had a watch himself or asked
the prisoner to get rid of it for him.
Thomas Bryant, another soldier belonging to the
prisoner's battalion, also deposed to hearing the prisoner
make use of the expression that if ho had got a sovereign
the man might have gone to h—, and if he had been on
the colour post he would have had all he had got.
Thomas Gunnaway, lance sergeant of the regiment,
deposed that the prisoner was under his orders, and it
was his duty to place him at the different posts. He had
repeatedly heard the prisoner boast that he had got
money from the public, and would continue to do so, but
he did not say.in what manner.
By Mr. BALLINTIND —The prisoner belonged to the
9cl battalion of the Scots Fusilier Guards.

This closed the case for the prosecution. 1
Mr. BALLANTINE then addressed the jury on behalf
of the prisoner, but it was evident that the Learned
Counsel felt that the evidence was too cogent for him to
hope to struggle successfully for a verdict. He made
some observations upon what he described as the extra-
ordinary conduct of the prosecutor,a clergyman, walking
about the streets at night, with a cigar in his mouth, and
also remarked upon his conduct in entering into conver-
sation with private soldiers under such circumstances as
appeared in evidence ; and he urged upon the jury that,
if they were not perfectly satisfied of the falsehood of
the charge that had been made, the prisoner was entitled
to an acquittal.
Mr. Justice CRESSWELL then summed up, and
The jury almost ,immediately returned a verdict of
Guilty.
His LORDSHIP, in passing sentence, said, that he quite
concurred in the verdict of the jury ; and notwithstand-
ing the ingenious observations of the Learned Counsel
respecting the thoughtless and inconsiderate conduct of
the prosecutor, in walking about the streets at night as
he had done, he did not see any reason to doubt that the
charge had been made against him by the prisoner
without any foundation. It was an offence of the most
odious kind. The crime which ho had suggested as
having been attempted was one which every decent mind
shrunk from contemplating, and was of a character to
drive from society any man supposed to be guilty of it.
The false accusation of such a crime was next in de-
gree to and almost equally disgusting as the crime itself;
and it was the duty of the Court, in all such cases, to
pass a sentence calculated to protect the public from the
repetition of such an offence.
The prisoner was then sentenced to be transported for
fifteen years.
Just before the rising of the court the grand jury re-
turned four true bills for manslaughter against Bartholo-
mew Peter Drouet.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.
MANSION-HOUSE.

William Wilkinson was brought before the Lord
Mayor in the custody of Daniel Forrester, the officer,
charged with having uttered two forged cheques upon
the banking house of Hankey and Co., Fenchurch-street
the one for 2351. 10s., the other for 1541. 17s. 6d. Mr.
Bush, of the firm of Bush and Mullens, solicitors to the
Committee of Bankers for Protection against Forgeries
and Frauds, attended.
Mr. George Barrett, cashier to Messrs. Hankey and
Co., said—On the 22d of September, 1848, I remember
a person, named Kirkman, presenting to me the cheque
produced for 2351. 10s., and dated 21st September, at
the counter. I asked him how he would have it,
and I paid him with a note for 2001,, num-
bered 33,206, and dated 11th January, and 351. 10s. in
gold. I did not take particular notice of the person
then. An hour or so afterwards he again came, and
presented a cheque for 1541. 17s. ed., dated 22d Sept.,
1848, and I recognised him as the person to whom I
had paid the other cheque, and he acknowledged such
to be tho fact. I was in the act of paying him when I
asked him the question, and my suspicion was excited,
and I detained him. The drawers lived in Essex, and
as I had received a cheque from the same parties, on the
same day, I had ground for suspecting its authenticity.
He said he expected to meet the party from whom he
received it at the Post-office, and that he had received it
from that party in Little Britain. I went with him to
the landlady of the house in Little Britain, and I saw
her there, —.a T ascertained that the cheques were both
forgeries.

Mary Ann Thomas, of No. 80, Little Britain, said I
(
am in the habit of letting part of my house in lodgings.
In September, 1848, the prisoner came to my house and
inquired for lodgings. He said he wanted to engage two
young men, one for his master and the other for him-
self. He did not say who his master was, but he gave
Jenkins as his own name. Next day he came and said
he was going to engage two young men, and he
would let me know about the lodgings. He pro-
posed engaging a parlour on the first floor, but
said he was going to the country, and he would
let me know. After that I got a note from him,
hearing the post-mark of the 14th of September, to say
that he would come that day week. He accordingly
came about that time, and paid me 7s. in advance, for
one week's lodging. I remarked then that his whiskers
had been shaved off, and he said he had been ill. He
had no bed room. Several persons came to him, prin-
cipally young men looking like porters.
Mr. Birch—Do you recollect a person named Kirk-
man calling upon him? Witness—l do, well. I also
recollect Mr. Barrett coming afterwards, with Kirk.
man. They waited for some time, but the prisoner never
afterwards returned to my house.
J. Kirkman said, I am now living at Weston, near
Bath, with Mr. Legg. I advertised on the 18th of Sep-
tember, for a situation as cellarman or barman, having
bean then out of work, and a person much older than the
prisoner called on the Thursday following, aid in con-
sequence of what he said to me I went to Mrs
Thomas's, in Little Britain, and inquired for Mr.
Jenkins, and was introduced to the prisoner. I had a
note in my hand telling me to inquire for Mr. Jenkins,
and I showed it to him, and he said it was all right; and i
think he put the note in his pocket. The prisoner asked
me several questions connected with the situation, and I
think he told me the wages would be 265. a week, and
appointed me to call next day at a quarter before eleven.
I did so, and saw him in the parlour. and he said he was
glad I was come, and he gave me two 5/. notes, payable
at different banking-houses to get changed, with direc-
tions to get as much silver as possible, and to call at a
place to learn the price of isinglass. When I returned
to him with the change and the information he required,
he gave me the first cheque produced, which I believe
was drawn by Messrs. Lemmon and Co. upon Messrs.
Hankey's bank, and he gave me a bag and a pocket-
book, and told me to get the cheque cashed. I went and
got the amount, and returned and handed it to him, and
he counted it, and gave me eighteen-pence to get my
dinner. The witness then detailed several particulars
which took place between him and the prisoner, all tend-
ing to show that the prisoner took ingenious methods of
avoiding suspicion, and then proceeded i—After I had my
dinner I met him, by his appointment, in half an hour,
and we walked together to Little Britain and the Ge-
neral Post- office, and he there put the second cheque in
my hand, and told me to go to Hankey's and get it
changed, for a 1004 note and the rest in gold, and to
meet him at the Post•office. I went to the banking-
house
accordingly, and was detained, and I afterwards
went with the cashier and the inspector of the police to
the Post-office and Little Britain to look for Mr. Jenkins,
but I never saw him till this morning.
Mr. Bush—Were there other persons in the room
when you saw him this morning? Witness—About a
dozen. I pointed him out at once, and have not the least
doubt as to his identity.
The LORD MAYOR—Prisoner, do you wish to ask
any of these witnesses any questions? The prisoner
—No.

Mr. F. W. Lemmon, banker, at Brentwood, in Essex,
said he had for nriny years been in the habit of drawing
cheques upo❑ Hankey's. The cheques produced were
forgeries. The signatures resembled his and might pass
for his. He never authorised any one to sign tor him,
and he had never to his knowledge seen the prisoner
before.

Mr. Bush submitted that the evidence in the two cases
was complete. He had, however, to request that as there
was a third case of forgery upon the same day for 1741.
10s., on the same house, and as the prisoner was be-
lieved to be implicated in that transaction, the prisoner
might not bo fully committed to Newgate until a future
day, and that Mr. Lemmon might give his testimony with
respect to the last instrument.
Mr. Lemmon then looked at the third cheque, and at
once pronounced it to be a forgery, and
The LORD MAYOR said the prisoner stood committed
upon the two first charges, and was remanded upon
the last.
The prisoner, when apprehended, was not possessed of
ono farthing.

COURT OF INLAND REVENUE, TRURSDLY.—(Before
John Thornton, Esq., deputy chairman; Alfred Mont-
gomery, Esq.; and C. J. Herries, Esq.)—The consolida-
tion of the Boards of Excise and the Stamps and Taxes
being now completed by Act of Parliament, the court
rn,,t this day for the first time under its new title, of the
" Court of Inland Revenue," which, in addition to the
functions formerly exercised by the Court of Excise, will
now possess jurisdiction in all matters connected with
the inland revenue, whether arising from the Lae Stamps
and Taxes or Excise Departments. Mr. Hugh Timms,
the solicitor of the Stamps and Taxes, has taken the
place of Mr. Carr, solicitor to the Excise, who re-
tires on full pay; and Mr. Filsey will succeed Dr. Bate-
man, as assistant-solicitor, in the course of a few weeks.
Thomas Adams, George Dickson, and William Brown,
otherwise Bailey, all from the east end of the town,
w6ra fined 2001. eacb, for possessing and working illicit
r

Sir John Pelly had an interview with Earl Grey on
Wedneaday, at the Colonial Office.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 1.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
Earl FORTESCUE presented petitions from Oak-
bampton, and other unions in Devon, praying for an
alteration in the county of Devon. Also petitions com-
plaining of the treatment experienced by the Rev. Mr.
Shore, and praying for an alteration in the laws respect-
ing clergymen seceding from the Church of England, in
the prayer of which he cordially concurred.
Lard LYTTELTON presented a petition from cer-
tain rural deans, praying for additional security in the
appointment of bishops; also petitions praying for an
alteration in the law of settlement and for a national
poor-rate.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS.

The Marquis of SALISBURY moved that an address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that certain papers
relating to highways and turnpike trusts might be laid
before the House. _ _

After a few words from the Earl of GRANVILLE,
the motion was agreed to.
WOODS AND FORESTS GROUND RENTS.

The Marquis of SALISBURY wished to call the at-
tention of the Noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of
Woods and Forests, to the report of the Committee of
the House of Commons on the Woods and Forests, which
had been published in the papers, and from which it was
made to appear that several noblemen and gentlemen had
obtained houses and grounds in the Green Park upon
almost nominal rents. As far as he was concerned
he begged to state that the amount which appeared in
the return as paid by him was paid solely for the garden
in front of his house, and not for the ground on which
the house stood, and that the rent had been fixed by the
Commissioners of Woods and Forests and his ancestors
many years back.
The Earl of CARLISLE was much obliged to the
Noble Marquis for having afforded him this opportunity
of entering into explanations on a subject with regard
to which much misapprehension existed. There was
great misapprehension existing as to the ground for
which rent was paid to the Crown by the occupiers of
houses in the Green-park. The sums which appeared
in that return as the sums paid by the occupiers of
those houses to the Crown were paid in respect
of the strips of ground occupied as gardens, which ex-
tended from the fronts of the houses to the boundary of
the park. The Noble Marquis himself appeared in that
return as paying 101. 7s. 7d. a year on a lease of ninety •
nine years, but that was merely for the garden in front
of his house, not for the ground on which his house
was built, which ground did not belong to the Crown.
The houses were built upon land which was not Crown
property. The rents which appeared in the return
varied from 4/. a year to 1151. a year, and were paid for
the gardens merely, which added to the fragrance and
beauty of the park, and from which the public derived
this benefit, that they could never be built upon.
—(Hear, hear.) There were but two houses in
that row which paid ground rent to the Crown,
those were the residences of Sir John Lubbock and of
Mr. Rogers. Sir John Lubbock paid 1001. a year for
the ground on which his house stood, and Mr. Rogers
paid 601. a year ; but it should be remembered that Mr.
Rogers had almost rebuilt his house when the lease was
renewed. Then with regard to the ground-rents in Re-
gent's-park, the land had been grass-land, which had
been let to Mr. Nash for building, and it had always been
the custom in such cases to demand a certain amount of
ground rent for a patch of land, leaving it to the
builder to apportion the different amounts of ground
among the houses built upon the land. This rule had
been followed in the case of Mr. Nash. Augustus-
street and Regent's-park had been grass land when
let to him for building in 1819 ; and for that
which in 1819 was grass land, the Crown now received
6461. per annum; and in 1857 the Crown would receive
for the same lad 1,3741. per annum; and in 1919 the
whole of the buildings erected on this land would be-
come the absolute property of the Crown. This charge of
having let lands at a reduced rate to Mr. Nash had been
on a previous occasion brought before the notice of Par-
liament; an investigation had taken place, and the
transaction had been satisfactorily explained.
The next case was that of Mr. Bell, who was stated to
have obtained the property of twelve messuages on a
lease for 99 years, at a rental of 6/. per annum.
The fact, however, was that Mr. Bell held
a quantity of land on lease for 99 years at a
ground rent of 731. per year, but their Lordships must
remember that the houses which Mr. Bell had built on
this land would revert to the Crown at the expiration of
the lease.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the case
of Mr. Burton, the charge against whom was
that he held thirty-one messuages in Chester-
terrace for ninety-nine years, at a ground rent of 61.
per annum. The fact was, though this gentleman
held a lease from the Crown of certain land, he
had built forty-one substantial dwelling-houses, at a
ground rent of 7111. per annum. There was
only one other class of cares to which it
was necessary to direct the attention of the House, and
one of those cases would illustrate the whole. It was
the case of a lady who held a lease of some land in
Chandos-mews upon which her husband had expended
during his lifetime 2,5004 in building stables, for which
she had to pay a rental of 111. per annum, besides the
interest on the 2,5001. already expended in the buildings,
which would revert to the Crown at the termination of
the lease.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in the last case but one
which he had mentioned to their Lordships, so far from
Mr. Burton making a profit out of these mismanaged
Crown lands, he had actually lose 40,000/
_ .

by them.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt these erroneous im-
pressions had gone abroad through the party who made
them, having bad to collect his information from a volume
consisting of 750 folio pages. Doubtless, in relating the
many transactions described in these 750 pages, errors
and miscalculations might be found, but the greatest care
would in future be taken to guard against inaccuracies.
With respect to the arrangement of the Crown lands
there was always room for improvement in the manage-
ment of a large public establishment like the Woods and
Forests, and a Committee was now sitting for
the purpose of discovering and remedying any
existing defects in the department, and, in con-
clusion, he would take the opportunity of
declaring that this Committee would always be ready
to listen to any suggestions that might be made to them
on the subject they were investigating.—(llear.)
The Earl of ELLESMERE, as one of the in•
dividuals referred to in these charges, must be
allowed to say a few words on the statement of the
Noble Lord, which he could assure their Lordships bad
taken him somewhat by surprise.—(Hear, hear.) He
a mansion quite unsuited
to aLaughter)—on a piece of
lwansdhis representedwhsiteah ti ohneitn fromroensboteecdbieutyiid—ig n(
the Crown for 691., but
which ought to yield 5001. per annum. (Hear,
hear.) Now, he did not complain of the
press or newspaper correspondents complaining of
defects in public departments, but before they made
their complaints public it was their duty to ascertain that
they were well founded. These writers seemed to forget
that any such strong moral obligation as that
rested upon them; but, nevertheless it was their duty to
ascertain that their facts were correct and founded on
truth, before they attacked a public institution in a
style and manner which equally reflected upon the
character of private individuals._(gear.) Now, with
regard to this charge of his renting from the Crown for
691. per year land which ought to yield 5001.. all that he
had to say in answer to it was simply this, there was no
foundation whatever for it, inasmuch as he paid no rent
at all for the land, as the freehold was vested in himself.
The subject then dropped.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
This Bill was brought up from the Commons, and
read a first time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Marsh 1.
The SPEAHNR took the Chair a few minutes before
Four o'clock.
SECEDING CLERGYMEN.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition signed by
11,000 electors of the borough of Macclesfield, calling
the attention of the House to the decision in the Arches'
Court and the Court of Queen's Bench, in the case of
the Rev. Mr. Shore, end praying the House to take such
measures as shall secure full religious liberty to
clergymen seceding from the Established Church.
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.

Mr. H. BERKELEY presented a petition, signed by
7,000 inhabitants of Bristol, praying the House to take
prompt and decisive measures to negotiate treaties with
the Government of this country and the Governments of
other countries, in matters of war, by means of inter-
national arbitration.
MARKETS AT GREENWICH,
Admiral DUNI)AS gave notice of motion for
leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Commissioners of
Greenwich Hospital to regulate and manage the mar-
kets held at Greenwich, in the county of Kent.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from the
inabitants of Londonderry against any alteration in the
navigatioa-laws.
THE CASIIEL UNION.
Mr. SCULLY presented a petition from the guar-
dians of the Cashel union, praying the House to inquire
into the appointment of the present surgeon of the kever
Hospital in that union.
LAND TENURE IN IRELAND.
Mr. ROCHE presented a petition from certain inha-
bitants of King's County, attributing the present condition
of Ireland to the operation of the land tenure in that
country, and praying the House to pass some Act which
may give security to the tenure of land.
IRISH POOR-LAW ACT.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL presented a petition from
the Roman Catholic clergy and ratepayers of Tuna its
Ireland, against what was sometimes called " The Beg-
gary Clause" in the Irish Poor-law Act, but commonly
known as the Quarter-acre Clause.
CLEARANCE SYSTEM IN IRELAND.
The HoN. GENTLEMAN also presented a petition from
the clergy and laity of the union of Tuam, deprecating
theinjustice of fixing on the inhabitants of towns instead
of the landlord class the support of the poverty created
by the clearance system.
INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.
Mr. LUSIIINGTON presented a petition from the
borough of Ashburton, praying the House to take
prompt and decisive measures to negotiate treaties
between the Government of this country and those of
the other countries in the world, binding them for the
future to the more humane cause of settling national dis-
putes by means of international arbitration.
PAYING CLERGYMEN OUT OF THE POOR-

RATES.
Mr. G. THOMPSON presented a petition from the
Tower Hamlets against the payment of clergymen out
of the poor-rates.
NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
Mr. EWART prcsentai a petition from Woodstt:Tk
in favour of the reduction of national expenditure.
NEW METROPOLITAN BOROUGH.
Mr. 14ACGREQQ1i preoeut,ed a petitim tom certain

of the inhabitants of Kensington, praying the Houie to
associate the districts of Kensington, Chelsea, Hammer-
smith, Fulham, and Chiswick together, and to confer
upon them, when so united, the right to return two
Members to Parliament.

tien far exceeding that of many English counties.—
(IJ ear, hear.) How could, he asked, any practical
system he carried out in connexion with so large a num-
ber? The evil was twofold; first, with retpect, to the
practical system itself, and, secondly, with respect to the
inferior clergy who officiated in these districts. Surely
a minister at the bead of a parish should know the people
over whom he was placed; surely there should be a
constant interchange of good offices between thew, for a
minister to transact his duty had not only to deal with
the spiritual but the secular interests of his flock; for it
was most important that the minister of a parish should
be enabled to relieve the wants of the suffering poor.
In many of the large parishes a minister was
scarcely known except in the vestry or in the pulpit. He
would mention but one instance in support of his
statement. The population of St. Pancras exceeded
140,000, and as several acres were being built upon,
the population would be increased one half,
if not doubled. For instance, the population of
that parish exceeded that of many counties, since
the population of Westmorelend was but 56,000;
of Retford, 109,000 ; and of Hertford, 114,000.
Now church accommodation for those numbers should
be provided—taking the rate of provision to the amount
of one-third of the amount of population, there should
be church accommodation for 47,000. As it was, the
whole accommodation amounted to only 17,000. He
would observe that the statement he had then made
in respect to the parish of St. Pancras was accord
ing to the condition in which it was two or three
years ago, before the reforms were introduced by the
present vicar; but it was a very good exemplification
of the parish before the reforms were applied. Those
reforms have been only effected by those principles
which his proposition would endeavour to make
universal. But before that time the whole church
accommodation amounted to only 17,000. Thus
the House saw church accommodation for 51,000
atithe rate of one-third had been made for 140,000. Now
take the number of clergymen officiating in that parish
at that time. The whole number of clergymen amounted
to 18. Upon the division of the parish to each of those
clergymen were assigned 8,000 souls. But it
did so happen that the distribution was very
unequal. It was not that every clergyman had
the cure of 8,000 souls, but the distribution
of the clergymen was very unequal, and it did so hap-
pen that to. twelve of these clergymen were as-
signed 120,0010 souls, or one clergyman for every
10,000 souls. It was impossible too highly to
praise the conscientious self-sacrifice made by Mr. Dale,
the vicar.—(Hear.) He determined to use all the power
which he possessed, when he first entered on the living,
to subdivide that great parish, notwithstanding ho was
very much thwarted. Still, after all his exertions, a
vast proportion of that parish remained undivided.
Look at another fact that was warranted by
that want of sub-division. Take the great
parish of Saint Pancras, and see the number
of the children of the Church of England schools. The
number of children amounted to 4,000, whereas under pro-
per organization, with reference to the proportion of other
children, found in other parishes, where there was an
effectual organization, the number should be at least
14,000, and in that he made due allowance for the
numbers usually educated by Dissenters; and
he (Lord Ashley) could answer from personal know-
ledge and investigation, having been induced to examine
that parish with a view to the institution of
what wore called ragged schools, that there
were 20,000 children who went to no place of worship
whatever. But Mr. Dale, by making that sub-division,
imperfect and inadequate as it was, had so far suc
ceeded that he had opened schools giving accom-
modation for 6,000 children, in addition to what existed
before. He held that, in every respect, the case of St.
Pancras proved the necessity of sue-division, and that
that sub-division could take place only on the application
of the principle for which he contended. Mr. Dale, in a
letter which he had written to the churchwarden of St.
Pancras, said " there was no union between
the clergymen and the parishioners; a great many
of the labouring population had altogether
abandoned attendance on public worship."—(Hear.)
Mr. Dale said further—" The ordinances of the
Church have to a great extent fallen into Josue
tude, and the consequence is that a great num-
ber of parents feel no interest in the moral
and religious instruction of their children." The con-
sequence was, that we had scattered about London a
great number of proprietary church schools.
Every man must give credit to the great
good which had been done by those proprietary churches;
but they were not the churches which he (Lord
Ashley) wished to see in this country.—(bear,
hear.) It would be found that none but persons
of easy and affluent circumstances were seen in those
churches, and that a great portion of the working
classes attended no place of worship at all, or went to
such places, where the complete distinction of classes that
was kept up served only to hurt and repulse them.
Now, there was another view of the matter which re-
quired serious consideration, and that was the position
held by the inferior clergy, as respected the country at
large. He must say that their position was not only
disagreeable in itself, but also one not at all calculated
to elevate them in the eyes of the country. They
had to a certain extent, and in some respects
to their inferiors, the power of the bishops; but
in other respects they had the responsibility
without the power. He thought that their position was
such that, both for their own sakes and that of the
church, the sooner it was done away with
the better, and further, that the number 01
thuali irrcoPo..il i clergy ishouti be greatly re-
duced. He had received a number of com-
munications, complaining of the position of the curates
in the several parts of the country, stating that they
were unable to fulfil their respective duties in some
instances, and in others that they had no vicars whatever,
to whom they were responsible. Now, he had said that
it was indispensably necessary for the welfare of the
clergy themselves. Let any person go into any of those
large parishes and he would immediately see that nothing
was more glaring than the discrepancy in the respective
conditions of the clergy in these several places. In
some parishes the labours were, ten times in
amount as compared with those of others. On
this subject he had received a great many
letters from different parts of the country, from
three or four of which he would read extracts, in
proof of the position which he had advanced. The Noble
Lord then read extracts from letters from different parts
of the country, complaining deeply of the responsibility
imposed upon the writers, and the obstructions thrown
in their way, and stating the utter impossibility of ful-
filling their responsibilities whilst the circum-
stances of their parishes remained as they at present
were. Ono clergyman in Lancashire wrote to say that
he had under his personal superintendence parishes
which collectively contained no less than 200,000 ieha-
bitants; another had upwards of 175,000 people under
his charge, and certainly if they desired to ad-
vance the interests of the Church they would
alter this state of things. A memorial had been
presented to the Archbishop of York, and he be-
lieved also to his Noble Friend at the hsad of the
Government,- complaining of the utter inadequacy of
those who signed it to fulfil their duties. Some of those
clergymen had as many as 12,000, and others is
many as 14,000 souls to attend to. It was manifestly
evident that this system could not continue, and that it'
the Church was to continue that instrument for
the public welfare which it was designed to
be, some changes must immediately be made,
Another person wrote to him and stated that no person
could be married at his church without paying double fees,
and that church was not situate three miles from the place
he then was. The Noble Lord then referred to several
other letters he had received from clergymen, complain-
ing of the restrictions that were placed upon them
in the performance of their duties, and stating
that these restrictions totally prevented them
from the proper exercise of their duties. He
proposed to appoint a Commission, for the purpose of
considering the sub-division of these matters, feeling
convinced that if such sub-division should take place
they would not only remedy all that was complained of,
but give great satisfaction to a great body of the people.
The parish of Bethnal-green had been sub-divided, and
the beat results had followed. There had also been a
sub-division in the parish of Chelsea, but it had caused
no diminution in the rector's salary, nor had it left the
parts divided without sufficient means to carry out all re-
ligious and charitable purposes. So far from that, the rec-
tor finding the population increasing, wished to have the
parishes further divided, and believed if it were so that
the moral and religious condition of the people would be
better attended to. The parish of St. Dunstan's
was within the limit he suggested ; its popula-
tion was 3,400, and it was not without its share of poor
population. It was only a quarter of a mile in diameter,
and in consequence of that most of the inhabitants
were known to each other, and the rector and his curate
were acquainted with every human being within it; it was
impossible that any of those frightful cases of destitution
cnuld prevail in that parish which were to be witnessed
in the large parishes of Shoreditch, Marylebone, and
St. Pancras. If the parochial system suggested
were carried out in all great towns he believed
that the mendicant and vagrant class, which had a
distinct natural history of its own, would be
almost entirely done away with. He would
suggest that a Commission should be appointed to in-
quire into the best plan that could be adopted
to carry out the object he had in view.
He could not understand why any objections could
be urged to his motion, since they did not
ask, but repudiated any advance of pub-
lic money for such a purpose. Funds, he be-
lieved, would be found in the present districts to
meet the expenses of small benefices. The funds to
which he looked were to the existing revenues,
to the result of the inquiry into the revenues
of church lands, the funds of which might be made
available to this purpose; but, above all, he looked
to the munificence of the Church, which had not yet
been fully tested.—(Hear, hear.)—More especially
did he expect much from this munificence, if
the efforts were properly localised, and the expenditure
of the money was clearly shown. As a proof that they had
not tested the munificence of the Church, the
case of Bethnal-green was a remarkable in-
stance, as in that miserable district sufficient
money had been raised by a benevolent
gentlemen to erect and endow 10 churches. Again the
Archbishop of Canterbury had stated in a recent
charge, that during the time he was connected with
the diocese of Chester he had consecrated more
churches than had been consecrated during the
last century. He considered the addition of .500 clergymen
would meet all the exigencies of the case, for whom 3001.
each, or 15,000/. in all, would be required,
which he did not think too much to seek from
the patriotic people of the Church of England.
The Noble Lord concluded by moving the address to
her Majesty of which be had given notion.
The motion having been seconded,
Lord JOHN RU SELL said he had list,ned with the
deepest interest to the statements of the Noble Lord, and
he felt convinced thtit the SUbstikfill9ll4 he proposed

would lead to the best results. His Noble Friend
had stated that he required no public grant for
carrying out his propo,dtien, but that it sheulti be left
to the friends of the Church itself. He believed that
the Church had ample funds for t' e purpose.
—(Hear, hear.) It was gratifying to find how the
efforts that had been made by the bishops of din.
rent dioceses had been responded to for the
er, ction of additional churches in their dioceses,
He was disposed to think that the sub-division could not
be carried to the extent which his Noble Friend
expected. He, therefore, did not feel it necessary
to trespass longer on, the attention of tho Houses
but he could not sit down without saying
that there was no member of the Church of
England, or no person who had disssented
from that Church, who could feel otherwise than greatly
indebted to the Noble Lord for the exertions he had
made in bringing this subject before the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME denied th it the building and planting
of churches in the metropolis or throughout
the country would remove the difficulties which the
Noble Lord deplered, and which he now sought to
remedy. If the Church was in such a lamentable state,
it was the duty of Government to interfere to correct its
abuses. There were plenty of churches. %% hat the
people wanted was assistance for their physical neces-
sities. What had the ten new churches in Bethnal green
done for the physical wants of the people? Was not the
distress there greater then ever? The Noble Lord had
begun in error. Fe would, he said, apply the church-
rat( s to this purpose. Were not church-rates public
property? How, then, could the Noble Lord say that
he did not intend to touch public property? How did
the House agree to that? The Noble Lord had not
mentioned the Dissenters. Why, in most of the popu-
lous parishes the large proportion were Dissenters. A
church for every 4,000 inhabitants, when, perhaps,
almost all of them were Dissenters. Was anything
more absurd? Let every clergyman attend to his own
duties. Abolish pluralities. It would have been better
to consider how these pluralities could be done away
with. That would be the way to make the people
moral and religious, The Dissenters had done more to
promote education in the country than the Church
people all together. The Church people did not come
forward in support of education, or to extend the know.
ledge of religion, except wren it was thought necessary
to supersede the efforts of the Dissenters. The Noble
Lord said that there were only 279 parishes that would
be benefited by his motion. Did he mean to say that
the other parishes were properly attended to ? He
feared not. In the populous districts of England it was
the Dissenters who did most for religion. He said this
to dissipate the idea that there was no body hut Church
of England people in the country. He moved, as an
amendment, atter the word population to insert the words
" belonging to the Church of England," and to add the
words " and to abolish ecclesiastical sinecures and plura-
lities, and to have small parishes in which there was
little to do included in new parochial arrangena nta."
Mr. HEALD said the object of the motion had his en-
tire concurrence. As a Nonconformist, he heartily con-
ceded to the Church that power he claimed for himself.
He preferred the plan proposed by the Noble Lord, be-
cause it was one upon which they could act, and it was
action, not inquiry, that was wanted. He must at the
same time observe that the plan he proposed would be
attended with considerable difficulty in the large manu-
facturing towns. He feared in these towns it would tend
to generate strife and discord between the clergy and the
ministers of congregations. In Stockport, the town which
he represented, for instance, there were two or three
chipels to every church.—(l.lear, hear.) In that town,
12,000 children, out of a population of 60,000 souls, at-
tended the Sunday-schools, and of these 10,000 children
were taught by the voluntary contributions of Noncon-
formists.—(Hear, hear.) Something similar might be
said of the district in the neighbourhood of Stockport,
and the effect of the education thus voluntarily pro-
vided was strikingly manifested in the extraordinary
outbreak of 1842, when, although the whole left their
work, they scrupulously abstained from the violence
which had marked former events of that kind.—(Hear,
hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord would modify that
part of his plan which referred to those towns ; and,
in conclusion, begged to repeat his cordial acqui-
escence in the general principle and object of the Noble
Lord.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT said ho forgave the Honourable Mem-
ber for Stockport the opinions he had expressed in
the first part of his speech, for the sake of the facts
with which he bad concluded it. With respect to the
motion of the Noble Lord, he did not object to it on
principle, but to the details. In the interesting
speech with which the motion had been introduced,
the Noble Lord said that he did not ask for any money.
He (Mr. Bright) had heard that statement before.
It was not impossible that a Commission might
go from place to place and make up a grievous case
of spiritual destitution, by excluding the efforts of Non-
conformists, and then, upon the faith of the case thus
made out, come to that House and ask for money.—
(Hear, hear.) If he was a member of the Church of
England—which he was very thankful ho was not—(A
laugh)—while he would be in favour of the principle
of the motion, he could at the same time found many
plans of a more tangible character. For instance, he
lived in a parish of about ten miles square, and with a
population of 80,000. They had a vicar who was sot
unknown to fame, a sort of semi bishop, without any
of the responsibilities, and having the appointment of
all the curates; it was complained that ho never ap-
pointed an evangelical one. It was complained also by
those who lived at the other end of the parish, and who
never attended the mother church, that they bad to pay
double rates. He thought that should induce them to con-
, sider the case of Noaconformists, who were forced to
pay rates, though they did not use the church at all.
He was afraid that the Noble Lord was mistaken in his
ideas, as to the possibility of making the clergy of the
Church and the people come together in the spirit he
had spoken of. The education, habits, and position of
the clergy unfitted them for such intercourse with the
people, and he believed that no efforts of the Noble Lord,
or of Parliament, could ever force the mass of the people
back into the Church of England, or into any chapels
either.—(Hear, hear.) Even in that House going to
church or chapel was not considered of that importance
which it once was. But he would call the attention of
the House to the proportion of the clergy to the popu-
lation, from which it would be seen that, if what he
might call their clergy power—(Great laughter)—was
properly distributed, there was quite sufficient of it.
He found that there were 10,500 benefices, 5,263 cu-
racies, and a number of dignitaries connected with
cathedrals, which made the total amount to 16,800
places in the Church of England. Of this number more
than 3,000 places had no duties attached to them, so
that the holder of each of them might be called two
clergymen.—(Hear.) Taking the whole population of
England and Wales at 18,000,000, this gave one cler-
gyman to 1,182 persons; but it was admitted that there
were 3,000,000 persons in connexion with Dissenters of
various denominations, who might fairly be taken to re-
present four millions and a half of population. This
would leave thirteen millions and a half; and giving the
Church the whole of that number, it would provide one
clergyman to 856 of the whole population. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to give a series of statistical re-
turns as to the numbers and relative proportion of Dis-
senters in the manufacturing districts to the strength of
• the Established Church. In the various denominations
of Dissenters, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists,
Presbyterians, Moravians, &c., there were 7,950 con-
gregations not connected with the Church. When the
population in the different dioceses was looked at,it
would be seen to be very unequally divided, one eighth
of the population had seven-eights- of the clergy, and
seven-eighths of the population had only one-
eighth of the clergy power alloted to them.—(Hear.
hear.) There were more than 6,000 parishes
containing not more than 300 persons, the remaining
parishes were all above 2,800, yet the Noble Lord began
at the wrong end, and proposed to leave the small pa-
rishes of 300 untouched, while he meddled with the
larger populations. Taking the manufacturing districts
around Manchester, he found that the Dissenters had
168 chapels more than the Establishment had churches,
- all of which were erected by voluntary contributions--
(Hear, hear)—that they had a majority of 81,000 of the
population; they had 328 more Sunday schools, 18,700
more Sunday-school teachers. and 42,000 more Sunday..
school scholars than the Established Church. Instead of
making out a case of spiritual destitution in these
tricts, it would be found, that whereas the proportionate
increase of the population in Lancashire and York hire
since 1801 had been 48 per cent., the increase of chapel
and school accommodation had been 104 per cent. Ur. der
these circumstances, he hoped that the Commissioners
would not get up a report about spiritual destitution,
excluding from it all notice of what had been done by
Dissenters.—(Hear.) The lion. Member then proceeded
to advocate a redistribution of the Church revenues, arcl
of the ministers of the Church. Looking upon the re-
venues of the Church as State property, and worth a
principal sum of at least 150,000,000/. sterling, he saw
immense educational and religious benefits that might be
realised by its proper application, and he would gladly
aseist in relieving the Church from all the fetters which
restrained it from making that application.
Mr. W. P. WOOD said he would not be seduced by
the discursive speech of the Hon. Member for Man-
chester into the discussion of any of the numerous points;
mooted in it, but confine himself strictly to the question.
It was admitted that there was an awful amount of spa'
ritual destitution, and the Noble Lord proposed a distinct
and specific plan to remedy that evil. It was by 120
means desirable that there should bo more than 2,000
individuals, not 4,000, es the Honourable Member
for Manchester had stated, under the charge of each
clergyman. The question, however, was not one of
numbers, but of numbers as well as space, and both
should be taken into consideration in discussing
the question then before the House. He directed
the attention of the House to the case of the two
parishes in which they were then situated, St. Mar-
garet's and St. John's. When he first became a resident
of those parishes, twenty-two years ago, there were only
two parish churches, four clergymen, and the chapel at
Broadway, and the state of things with regard to educa-
tion might be judged of from the fact that only that,y'
seven children attended the schools connected with the
church. A course somewhat similar to that pursued by
the Noble Lord the Member for Bath had been &teach'y
pursued in these parishes. The first step taken was the
appropriation of two stalls, which produced 1,2001. a year
each, to the payment of additional clergymen, and
was the stimulus given by that measure, that, by the
aid of voluntary contributions and the munificent sup.
scriptioes of individuals, instead of two churches and
one chapel, with four clergymen, they now bad six ad'
ditional churches, nine additional clergymen, and 2,00. 9_
children attending the schools. The sub-division of the
parishes led to these happy results, and the working of
the clergymen produced the greatest possible adva
teges. Still, however, cut of the 60,000 inhabitants there
were to be found from 30,000 to 34,000 who attended e
.?.
piece of worship, nod bed not the slightest regal(' I,f
tie Deity, a circumstance which in itself showed the
necessity for increased spiritual supervision.—(Hear'
Um.) Timing alluded is highly cemmeudaterY tun'