The Sun.
London, England, 1831-08-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, AUGUST 2.

The SPEAKER took his seat shortly after Three o'clock.
Sir Wm. GUISE brought up the report of the Committee
in the Great Grimsby election, and stated that the Com-
mitte had come to the decision that Capt. Harris and Mr.
Shelley's election was void on the ground of treating. The
Hon. Baronet then moved that a new writ do issue for the
borough of Great Grimsby, in the room of Capt. Harris
and Mr. Shelley. who were unduly elected.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved, as an amendment, that the
issuing- of the writ be postponed. AS this was a borough
which, by the Reform Bill, was to be deprived of one of
its Members, he did not see why at present a new writ
should issue for the election of a Member.
Lord ALTHORP doubted whether the House could
refuse to issue the writ, as that part of the Re-
form Bill referred to by the Honourable and
Learned Member had not yet passed into a
law, besides which the sitting Member had not been gui:ly
of bribery but only of treating, and he did not know as in-
stance in which the issuing of a writ had been buspemral
on the ground of treating only.
Mr. R. GORDON supported Mr. O'Connell's view of
the case ; and Mr. GRATTAN and Mr. COURTENAY spoke
against it.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the original motion for issuing the writ was carried.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition from Monmouth-
shire, praying the House to proceed with greater rapidity
with the Reform Bill.

The Marquis of CHANDOS gave notice, that in the

Committee on the Reform Bill he would move that the
borough of Evesham be removed from schedule B to sche-
dule A.
Mr. WYSE presented a petition from Tipperary, against
the grant to the Kildare-street Society.
IRISH JURIES.

Mr. CRAMPTON brought in a Bill to consolidate and
amend the laws relating to Jurors in Ireland, which was
read a first time and ordered to he read a second time on
Monday next.
BIRMINGHAM POLITICAL UNION.

Mr. O'CONNELL said he was entrusted with a peti-
tion from certain inhabitaits of Birmingham forming the

Council of the Political Union ; they stated that they be-
lieved that at the late election a majority of Reformers had
been returned to this House, and they prayed the House to
proceed with greater rapidity with the Reform Bill ; they
stated that more attention had been paid to the puerile ob-
jections and factious opposition of the minority of this
House than to the demands of an oppressed and suffering
people; that other measures-of great importance were re-
quisite, but that they could not be duly considered until
after the passing of this Bill, and they prayed that
the Bill might not be farther retarded by a small, inte-
rested, and factious Opp.osition.
An HoN. MEMBER rose to orJer, and submitted that
the petition could not be received.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member had risen too
soon ; if he allowed the Hon. and Learned Member to
' proceed to the end, perhaps the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber himself would perceive that it could not be received.
Mr. O'CONNELL having finished reading the petition,
said he thought it better, instead of merely glossing over
it, to state its contents in its own words—(Hear)—in
order that the House might the better judge upon it.
A Messenger from the Lords interrupted the Hon. and
Learned Member by appearing at the Bar•, and summoning
the House to the Bar of the House of Lords, to hear his
Majesty give his Royal Assent to some Bills.
The SPEAKER, accompanied by nearly all the Mem-
bers, then left the House. On their return, the Right
lion. Gentleman informed the House that his Majesty,
seated on the Throne, bad been pleased' to give his Royal
Assent to various Bills, for the particvlais o Which see the
Lords' report.
Mr. O'CONNELL then resumed his address, and said
he should leave the petition with the House; he pressed it
on their attention because the petitioners felt that their
feelings and judgment had been trifled with in regard to
this Reform Bill. If, however, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (the Speaker) thought that the language of the
petition was of such a nature that it could not be received,
he would consent that it should be withdrawn ?

The SPEAKER felt obliged by the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman putting the question to him, and in giving an
answer to it he would do so without reference to the
merits of the petition. He had no doubt that the petition
ought not to be received—not from the view it took of any
particular question, but from its reference to a course of
proceedings, and for offering comments on those proceed-
ings, and on that freedom of speech which Members of
the House ought to have unrestrained and left entirely to
their own responsibility.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CoNNELt, bowed to the decision of the Speaker,
and withdrew the petition.
Mr. O'CONNELL then presented several petitions
against the grant to the Kildare-street Society, and against
the tithe system. The Hon. and Learned Member gave
notice that to-morrow he would put a question to the Right
Hon. Secretari. for Ireland, (not now in his place) relative
to the arming of the Irish yeomanry which was still pro-
ceeding, notwithstanding it was understood that orders had
issued to stop it.

Mr. 'MAURICE O'CONNELL presented a petition
against the grant to the Kildare-street Society.
Mr. BROWNLOIV presented petitions from places in
the counties of Monaghan and Mayo against the grant to
the Kildare-street Society, and also one from a parish in
Armagh, complaining that although within a short distance
they had three churches, the parishioners had been obliged
to pay for building a new church.
Mr. Alderman VENABLES moved for returns of the
number of bushels of malt charged with duty in the
United Kingdom, between the Ist of January and the Ist
of July, 1830, and the same period this year.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
place in Hertfordshire, against the use of molasses in
distilleries.

PROVISION FOR THE DUCHESS OF KENT AND
TIN PRINCESS VICTORIA.

Lord ALTHORP brought up a message from his Ma-
jesty to the following purport
William R.—His Majesty, taking into consideration
that, since Parliament made provision for the maintenance
of her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent and her High-
ness the Princess Alexandrina Victoria of Kent, circum-
stances have arisen which make it proper that a Inure
adequate provision should be made for her Royal High-
ness the Duchess of Kent, and far the honourable support
and education of her Highness the Princess Alexandrina
Victoria of Kent, recommends the consideration thereof to
this House, and relies upon the attachment of his faithful
Commons to adopt such measures as may be suitable to the
occasion. W. R."

The Noble Lord gave notice that he would wove that
the !message be taken into consideration by the House to-
morrow.

LIVERPOOL ELECTION.

Mr. BENETT postponed bringing forward his reso-
lution upon this subject, bat we did not hear the day.

STEAM-VESSELS.
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to regulate steam-vessels in the'port of London. The
worthy Alderman dwelt upon the necessity of adopting
some regulations to controul the conduct of masters of
steam-vessels, and enumerated many fetal accidents which
had occurred on the river by the rapidity and speed at
which they proceeded.
Lord ALTHORP moved the Order of the Day for the
House to iesolve itself into a Committee on the Reform
(England) Bill.
Mr. CRESSET PELIIAM said, that looking at
the thin state of the House at present, and com-
paring it with the full attendance that had been piveti nu
Saturday, he could not but think that the hour ~f two,
A.M. was the better hour for the House to meet for public
business. On Saturday he considered the deliberations
of the House were conducted much more satisfactorily than
upon ordinary occasions.
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. S. WORTLEY rose and complained of the general
inaccuracy of the population ieturns. No one who had paid
any attention to the different enactments of the Bill, or to
the different stages of its progress through the House, could
deny the excessive carelessness and neglect by which those
returns were made. This was sufficient to neutralize the
end they were designed to serve, and render Members wholly
unable to decide upon the questions brought before die's.,

The first question brioght before the Committee was
" That Sudbury stand part of schedule B."
Lord ALTHORP rose and said, that in consequence
of the statements made with respect to Sudbury on
Saturday he had made inquiry, and he would shorly
stste to the Committee the reasons which had induced
him to come to his present deeisiln with re.,peet to it.
In the population returns for the (wormy of Suffolk-
the borough of Sudbury was stated to consist of throe pa-,
rishes ; and although that did nut make up the
requisite amount of population, to take it nut of
the schedule in which it stood, there was a hamlet
named Ballingdon, which bly in the parish of Ali Saints,
which ought to he united to it. It ;lid appear to him, on
population of Ballinedon should he joined to Sudbury;
that showing, to be a question of 41uht, whether the
and
at first sight it appeared to be in statu quo of 'irtiro, where
some parishes were in the town annuli not in the imougb ;
all of which were taken in estimating the amount of po-
pulation. In Truro, there was one remarkable eirconstanee,
that the limits of the town defined by Act of Parliament.
inc:udeil the different parishes referred to, while, on the
other hand, the Act applyinz to the town and borough of
Sudbury did not include Ballingdon. .There was this
distinction, therefore, between the two cases, and upon this
ground he did not think that the case of Sudbury ought
to be made an exception by taking it out of Schedule 13.
Mr. WRANGHAM thought there was the greatest dis-
tinction between Sudbury and Truro. Sudbury consist( si
of three parishes, two of which were not only within the
town lint within the borough. The third was:partly within
both the town and the humus!), though one part of it
had spread beyond the limits of the town, The distinc-
tion, therefore was greater in favour of Stidbury, and how
it was to he put upon parallel with Tr urn for the
purpose of retaining a situation in schedule B, he
(Mr. W.) was perfectly at a loss to comprehend.
It was not for him to discover the motives of the Govern-
ment, nor should he throw undue imputations on the Go-
vernment; but he had received an intimation, whethW
such intimation was also conveyed to the Government
he knew, not, that there was a party in that House deter-
mined to carry the Bill even further than Ministers bad
intended it to go, as regarded Sudbury, and to insist on

Sudbury being disfranchised to the extent now proposed.
If there were such a party in the House, it was utterly
useless for any Member on the Opposition side of
the House to think of reasoning with the Ministeri,
and the sonnet they announced their determination not to
discuss the questions arising upon the diffetent parts of
this Bill on reason and principle, the sooner this tedious
course of debate might be put nn end to.
Lord ALTHORP said he was nut aware till that mo-

ment that there was a party in the Honse determined to
strike off one Member from Sudbury, whether his Ma-
jes4's Government approved of it or not. Though the
facts were true, as far as the Hon. Member (Mr. Wrang-
ham) had stated them on Saturday respecting Sudbury,
yet the whole cf the facts had not been stated. The ad-
ditional facts made it expedient in the opinion of his Ma-
jesty's Government to retain Sudbury in the schedule.
Mr. WRANGHAM repeated his conviction that it was

idle to attempt to reason with the Government, support-
ed by the power they seemed to be supported by, if they
were determined to say that Truro and Sudbury were
alike. The Noble Lord oppesite had said that the hamlet
of Ba!lingdon was not within the parish of All Saints-.
What could be a stronger proof that it was, than that it
paid the church rates and tithes as in that parish ; and
also a churchwarden for the parish of All Saints I,ne
elected out of the hamlet.

or the lane..
Mr. FERGUSSON had received no ;nformation froth
any one that was intended to have the effect of prejudicing-,
in their opinions and votes, Mernhais of that House;
and be would take the liberty of assuring the House
that his vote should entirely be regulated by the
population returns.--(Hear, hear.) He fonnd that
Manchester was to be entitled to return two Members
by the Bill, Glasgow two, and the county of Lanark,
with a population of 240,000 inhabitants, calls only de-
clared entitled to one. Therefore he wag easy in the vote
he should give, though he was determined not to break
through the rule laid down by his Majesty's Ministers,
to look at the place now exercising the elective franchise,
and if its population did not amount to 1,,000, he should
vote that it remain in the schedule.
Lord MILTON denied that the hamlet of Ballingdon
formed part of the pariah of All Saints. It formed part of
the parish of Brandon; the parish church of which had
long been entirely dilapidated ; in consequence of which
tpi
erliesshs:
he t:n d w
o haduld c
the inhabitants of that parish had mulcted to the Rat is h
avogteuirte to take
pa r"
Sudbury church of All Saints, had paid tithes and rates in that
uiadlbruirgyh tosutth
the of
because he thought there was a sufficient connexion with
that borough on the part of the hamlet of Hillingdon to
justify him in wishing to take Sudbury out of the schedule
B; which schedule was not so great a favourite with him
as were other parts of the Bill.
Mr. CHOKER observed, that if the lion. Member for
Kircudbright thought that the principle of the Bill was
the number of the population, he was in error, of which
various instances had appeared ; as in the cases of Aldbo-
rough, Amersham, Buckingham, &c. For his part, he
could see no difference between the case of Sudbury and
the case of Truro; and maintained that if the latter was
entitled to two Members, the former was equally so.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON and Mr. CitoKEa mutually ex-
plained.
Sir JOHN WALSH observed, that memorials had long
ago been presented to his Majesty's Government, stating
all the circumstances of the case of Sudbury. Their utter
ignorance of all those circumstances until communicated to
them in the House on Saturday last, showed the carelessnesg
and negligence with which they had prepared their mea-
sure; and showed that. they left all investigation of the me•
rits of the case of every particular place, to the immediate
Members of that place. It had been said that the country
would appreciate the motives of those who delayed the
progress of the Bill. He sincerely hoped that the
country would appreciate those motives, and would
feel that the object of those who wished for investi-
gation, was simply to endeavour to procure full, fair,
and impartial justice. What had occurred was quite
sufficient to prove that the interests of the various bo-
roughs were not safe in the hands of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters; and that their conduct required to be observed
with the most watchful vigilance. In answer to what
had been stated by the Noble Member for Northamp-
tonshire, he begged leave to inform that Noble Lord—
and he had the high authority of Dupdale's ..lionasticon
in support of his assertion—that Ballingdcn was never a
parish, that the church there, which, as the Noble Lord said,
had been entirely dilapidated, was not a parish church,
but was in the time of Henry the First, a chapel attached
to the parish of All Saints. Nothing could be better esta-
blished, therefore, than that the hamlet of Ballingdon was
in the parish of All Saints ; to which it paid rates and
tithes, and the glebe lands of which it contained. As to

;he motion of fixing the limits of a town by Act of Par.:

liament, it appeared to him that, with the exception of the

Reform Bill, no measure could be more arbitrary. Ile
maintained that the exclusion of Sudbury within the ope-

ration of the Bill, was not only un3ustifiable in itself, but
was in vi3lation of die precedents which his Majesty's Mi-
nisters had themselves established.

Mr. TYRELL made some observations, which were
not audible in the gallery,
Mr. BARING contended that Sudbury ought to he
removed from schedule B. He admitted that corruption
had existed in the borough, and was likely to exist here-
after, but it would not be to a greater extent than in the
various 101. boroughs which they were creating through-
out the country.
Lord ALTHORP stated that according to an Act for
paving and lighting the town and borough of Sudbury,
passed in 1825, the hamlet of Ballingdon was not consi-
dered as part of that town. It might be convenient for
the inhabitants now to call this hamlet part of the town,
but it was evident, from the Ant, they did not consider it
such in 1825. He also repeated the opinion that Bal-
lingdon was simply a chapelry, and not a part of the
parish of All Saints.

Sir R. PEEL maintained that no stronger case could
possibly be brought forward than that of Sudbury. The
Noble Lord had only two things to rely upon; first, that
I3allingdon was not part of the parish of All Saints ; and,
secondly, the Act for Paving and Lighting in 1825. Now
that Billingdon was part of the parish, there really could
not be a rational doubt—it paid taxes, tithes, and church

rates, as part of the parish—it appointed one of the
churchwardens—iv had no chapel of its own, so that all
the eciemonies relating to births, deaths, and marriages,
were performed at the church of Sudbury. In a word,
Ballingdon was part of the parish of All Saints for all
legal purposes, and how or why should they then deny
the relation ? Then as to the Act, he observed, that it
was, in itself, a most preposterous piece of legislation ; it
consisted of 1211 clauses, and one of them provided that all
houses thenceforth bnilt in Sudbury should be perpendi-
cular.—(Laughter.) Besides, no argument eould he,
drawn even respecting the limits of the borough from
such an Act. There were numerous instances in which
parts of boroughs had been known to be left out in such