The Sun.
London, England, 1831-07-15 00:00:00

ileruan to originate a discussion involving the whale tincs-i

tion. He must say, however, that he thought that would
be unnecessary. Where there could he no doubt that the
particular borough under -cOnsideratio'i fell below the line
of two thousand, on *liich 'the House had already pro-
nounced, lie could not invite Hon. Members to repeat th.
discussion upon the principle of making that the line.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) But on the other hand, he hoped that,

in simple justice, when a prima facie case could be shown
that any particular boroughs did nut ft.ll within the line of
two thousand, a fait- nroortunity would he afforded of esta-
blishing tht fact.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The House having
ftlly recognized the principle by a majority, his advice was
not to renew the discussion of that principle in the case of
every individual borough ; but, at the same time, to exa-
mine if that principle actually applied to the immediate
borough under notice.---(Hear, hear, hear.) It was un•
necessary for him to say that he reserved the right of again
dist!ttssing the whole principle of the Bill on the report,
or on the third reading ; although desirous not to throw
any unnecessary obstacle in the way of its progress, be
should avoid discussing that whole principle in the Com-
mittee.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, that
the Committee would enter into the discussion in good

humour, and without useless impediments. Called upon
to frame a new Constitution for the people, no time should
be wasted which might be employed in considering how

to make it best —(1-lear.)
Mr. BARING said, that after what had just fallen from
his Right Hon. Friend, he would not follow the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who preceded him through his
arguments. The first point which the Committee had
considered was the clause by which a certain number of
boroughs were to he disfranchised. Has ing passed through
that, and come to the schedule containing the names of the
boroughs, he allowed that it would be vexatious to discuss
if any boroughs at all should he disfranchised. But be-
fore they began with the first borough in the schedule,
it was important that the Committee should be quite sure
of the boroughs which it was proposed ta disfranchise.
The Noble Lord had altered the schedules in various
ways; the Noble Lord had given, and the Noble Lord had
taken away—(A laugh)— and who knew what the Noble
Lord might yet propose in the way of change ? What
was the principle on which the schedule had been framed ?
There was no principle in the Bill itself. A diminution
of population was not the principle; for in many of the
doomed boroughs the population had increased rather
than diminished. When gentlemen, therefore, talked of
restoring the Constitution, he was at a loss to understand
what restoration that could be which disfranchised places,
the population of which had increased, not diminished.
This wholesale disfranchisement was for the purpose, as it
was asserted, of rendering the House of Commons the
representatives of the great mass of the people. The
principle upon which the House bad hitherto been con-
structed was, that with great democratic other in-
fluence s were mixed ; and that it was by their union
that the co-existence of liberty with order, peace, and
seem ity was established.—(llear, hear.) But this alleged
amendment of the Constitution was to render the House
wholly democratic. When this Bill had passed, they
would be essentially living under a democracy.—(Loud
shouts of hear, hear.) The King would have less power
than the President of the United States of America ; the
House of Lords would be divested of all power, and would
be intimidated by every breath from without. He re-
peated, therefore, that as soon as the Bill had passed, we
should be essentially living under a democracy.—(Hear.)
He came now to the consideration of the immediate ques-
tion before the Committee. They were called upon to
determine that certain boroughs named in schedule A
should be disfranchised. Fur this disfranchisement no
reason was assigned in the Bill itself. But the Noble Lord
had stated that the number of two thousand inhabitants in
a borough, in his mind, indicated that it was a nomination
borough, under the influence of some considerable persons
in the State. Now lie (Mr. Baring) protested against the
disfranchisement of any borough for such a reason. The
very authors of the Bill acknowledged that the only assur-
ance which they felt for the safety of the Constitution,
after the passing of the measure, was, that there would
still be those influences which the Bill proposed to de-
stroy.—(Hear, hear.) Having denounced those influ-
ences as unconstitutional, they still rested the hope of
preserving the Constitution on their continuance.--
When the number of two thousand was described as the
indication of that influence which the Bill professed to
destroy, could the Noble Lord say that he had looked
closely and accurately into the fact ? Could he assure the
Committee, that, when lie drew the line at two thousand,
he did not leave out as many nomination boroughs as those
included in Schedule A?—(Hear, hear.) Nut only had
the Noble Lord left them out, but he bad actually made
them closer boroughs. The boroughs to which he al-
luded were as directly, exclusively, and immediately in the
nomination of certain great persons as those which, be-
cause their population was under two thousand, were
marked for destruction. This was tin important fact with
reference not only to justice but to the working of the
measure. Let the Committee consider the helpless con-
dition in which the Bill would leave the Crown. What
bad fallen from a Noble Lord last night gave some in-
dication of what was passing i❑ the minds even of his
Majesty's Ministers on that point. When the ten-pounders,
the subui ban voters, and others, were called into action,
such would be the helpless condition of the Crown, that no
place would be found in the House for Ministers to ex-
plain and defend their own measures. Unless, indeed, the
Ministers of the Crown were to be taken, like the repre-
sentatives of the people, on the recommendation of a cer-
tain club established for that purpose.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) The same club which forced representa-
tives on the people, might also force Ministers on the
Crown. It was easy to talk about the liberties of the
world in the tone of all the prattling demagogues of
the day ; but it was their duty, as Englishmen, to consi-
der what would be the condition of themselves and of their
posterity, if the Noble Lord, with a majority at his back,
and with a clamour out of doors, should succeed in carry-
ing the proposed measure. In that event the Crown, hav-
ing an Administration to form, would be unable to apply,
except to some Noble Lord, who, having four or five ho
roughs, would possess a monopoly of the favour of the
Crown. For, with all the hollow pretence of disfranchis-
ing so many places on the score of their being nomination
boroughs, there would remain, in a small oligarchy, that
power which, spread as it now was over a large surface,
had ❑ot the dominatio❑ over the Crown which it would
have when concentrated.—(Hear, hear.) If the Com-
mittee did their duty, they would at least inquire whether
by taking the line prescribed by the Noble Lord, they
would effectually do that which the Bill professed to do.
Could the Noble Lord fairly state, that by adopting the
numbers of 2000 and 4000, the object which the Bill
professed to have in view would be accomplished?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, after acknowledging the
candour of the observations which had been made by the
Right Hon. Baronet, and observing that the merits of every
case might be considered as the Committee arrived at it,
proceeded to observe, that the Hon. Member for Thetford
had shown, in his speech, his usual ability, but had also
shown that usual balancing of opinions which made those who
listened to the first part of the Hon. Gentleman's speeches,
generally find that it was contradicted by the last part.—
(No, no.) In the first part of the Hon. Gentleman's
speech, he declared that the destruction of the nomination
boroughs would produce a perfect democracy, under which
the King of this country would possess no greater power
than the President of the United States of America. But
no sconer had the Hon. Gentleman made that statement,
than be raised up the phantom of an oligarchy, which
was to bind down the Crown, and to produce the most
disastrous consequence.. He (Lord John Russell) con-
fessed, that alehough he always listened with pleasure to
the Hon. Member for Thetford, he seldom received con-
viction from his arguments ; for the workings of the Hon.
Gentleman's mind were so ingenious, and every contra-
dictory difficulty presented itself to him in such equal force
that he seldom came to the conclusion which might be an-
ticipated from his premises. With respect to the boroughs
comprehended in Schedule A. he thought they could all be
proved to be nomination boroughs. With respect to the
(oiler boroughs which the Hon. Member for Thetford said
would still remain after the passing of the Bill, whatever
influence they might involve, it must be abundantly clear
that they would not be such a blot on the Constitution as
the fifty-seven boroughs, the owners of which had so long
exercised so pernicious a power.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As
to the influence of the aristocracy, it would be impossible
wholly to destroy it by any Wan of Parliamentary Reform.
If the whole country wee divided into districts, and one
Member were to be returned for each, rank and property
would still retain their just influence. He did not, there-
fore, think that the Bill would destroy the just influence of
rank and property ; but it would prevent one individual
from being the owner of five or six boroughs; and of
subverting, by the mere act of writing a letter, the most
ancient and desirable principles of the Constitution.
Mr. 11. GURNEY addressed the House for a few
minutes ; but the noise was so great that we were unable
to collect the import of the Hon. Gentleman's observations.
Sir 11. PEEL, in explanation, said, that be was as
much opposed to the general disfranchisement included in
the Bill as hie Hon. Friend ; but as on the principle of
that disfranchisement the House had overruled him, he
thought that it would be a waste of time to enter into dis-
cussions on those boroughs which fell within the rule
which the House had pronounced ; reserving the right of
pressing for the rejection of the whole clause on the re-