The Sun.
London, England, 1825-04-27 00:00:00

190 N DQV PETITILO.N.

. The Marquis of LA NSDOWN, in pursuance to his notice,
had to present a Petition of great importance, which called for
particular attention on • ace tent of the respectability of the"
iSedy from. which it came..: As in conitequence of ,the question
put yesterday by his. Noble Eriond (Lord Lauderdale),, the
Ilouse was in possession of the feelings and' vies Ow N'tre.
earl opposite, and of almost every one of their Lerdship4;-: if
would be unnecessary for him to trespass at any length, epos
their time. It was his duty however to the Petitioners to
state, that their Petition appeared to representihe sense of the
commercial part of the Giro-of London.: ft waSsubseribed by.,
6000 names, amongst which would- be found, if not ail,. at
least the principal Merchants and Bankers of the metropolis.,
It was particularly gratifying to find that this Paition was by
no means an unqualified petition infavourof an absolute free
_trade, but that it called for an alteration in the presentsystem
Of the Corn LIWS en the principle of giving protection to the
Corn Trade as far as it wanted' protection. On 'this principle
there was andtticre could be no difference of opinion amongst,
those who- had witnessed the evils of:a. sudden revulsion. He.
agreed with the Noble E.tri oppo4ite, that it would be in-ipol=
•sible to enter into the reqUisite investigation dining the course
Odle present Session ;:hut.the intcrest of the landed propriew
tors:themselves demanded that it should not be long delayed.
An unpropitious season would be sufficient to 'Make the price.
auti np it> less than, a year to 853. Orlins.,"-tinti. then corn-would
be admitted at once from all parts of -the world without any-,
duty at all. The effect of this sudden inundation must be to
drive down the price of English corn to 40s. or 30s..Per-qUarter,
Which would produce a: most violent revulsion: -He did nut ex.:
pest• this, because he did not expect the ports-would be open, in
consequence of the wise measures which his Majesty's Govern-
ment were adopting for allowing' the ltdrnision ' of corn 'from
Curiada;und the release.of.that which was bonded in. this coun-
try: These measures wculd.prevent the price of corn froM teach-
ing the point at whith'Unlimited importatioh Must take place.
But still the possibility. 'of revulsion existed,. and it was
equally the interest-of landed- proprietors and of merchants to
provide against it. This he thought must ultimately
hey -4one- by a fixed duty; the great advantage of,which
would- be its permanency; for lie did not think' it
would require to be altered, as the Noble Earl opposite seemed
to apprehend. For even war itself, by t'ne.odditional freight,
and difficulties of introduction which it would occasion,
would afford, an additional and tounterVailing protectiOn
to.. the landed -.lnterata: Ile :had .been, requested to Mate'
tilat the .chiuf cause of the variation .in the, Exchange,
fird of its turning, as-it had done tor some 011ie' against this-
country, wasnOt, -as It-lind• been suppOsetk the agitatien'of this,
great.guestion,:.hut, that,the alteration :bed takcn.i)lac.
before in consequence of the .great demand .for co ,::e and" fo-
reigir produce.- whiCh had beenTaiti for i ri-nr6n cy.-- ThiAtrtlktri be
trusin some degree, but was sot, itrivikopinion, the-sole cause.
The Noble .Marquis then zoquested, that,,,on account. of its,
ifirprirtance, their Lordships would-4116w the whole' petition Lo-
be reap. • ••

• 'The Petition having been read, •• - •
The. Earl of LIIII;RICK thoughtthtit• the admission of
Canadian corn into this country would,' in tact, be the ad.:
mission,of the corn of America, which would come as the
tim')et:bf thelJnited .states •dat under the •nntne of Canadian
There •would be therefore .no.. cause 'to appreheud a
detioienay but rather an overflow acorn. - - -
-'tart Earl of LAUDEII.DAI,g contended that too demand'
fur, trawariaterials, which was said to have-effected the, Ex=
chanAe• of. this country must •have been:occasioned by the de-
nior-td. favour manufac..turt% from ahroall. -If: this • wen?. • the
case; however, there: would have been no variation in the
exchange: ' But the great demand :for raw' materials arose.
eTitfly -from .the immensity of our home iconsumption of
owolnanufactures. It beosme the ipaaufacturera, therefore, i
to,besutire -how they Injareti the lauded ;proprietors, de-
prived therm the- trins •of continuing. that •consumptlon
from which all interzsts derived equal benAit. 7 '•

The Marquis of LANSDOIVN said 'that the depression
which had been t %pet ienced the last 12-or 14 months had Jaen
in li-gresi theasUre occisionekby the speculations Of individuals
who,' &Minting on a pro hle rise in the price of eatfe and
otheenttides; had cqil them on the continent and paid fot•
money:- He' sted that the' manufacturers would

' never forget that it was the increase of the home demand which
had drawn them from their situation of deep distress, anti that
it was the home demand alone, which, while all other must be
affected, if not destroyed by war, would afford them a constant
and unchangeable vent for the produce of their industry.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was awaretethakifthe cause of
any thing were inquired of different persons, different answers
would be received. He believed that etreht speculations had
been made on the Continent--notionly foe raw materials, but
for other articles which hid been paid by specie from this,
country. But lie also thOughtethrit the speculations in corn
founded on the probability that the ports would be opened, or
that a change would take place in the Corn Laws, had gone a
great way to increase the depression
understood that speculations were at this very moment car-
ried on to a vast extent on the Continent. But things must be
left to take their coarse, and whatever that courseititig,lnibe, it-
ought not to alter the views of Parliam.ett with respect-to the
settlement OF the Corti.:Laws gym-eta-1 :1t..-wcadrlebeeimpossible
toeinatieutethelaborious inveetigalionreftl4s4, a/4). tß,effeict.
any change duzing the- present 'Sessibn, arid ildleed Was a
question whether, to delay the,'leigitiree till (thu9d6ltt; wotild:
lead to a later -conclusion. If the importation, of; corn froth.
America in the shape of dour (e. t'. it must come. in.that shape)
were looked 'to, Would be: fotied tlint 'the' countrT, had. to
eptirehend 'tlanger:tif,art overflow. • The great sunply of
corn came tkPin, the countries bordering on the- I t le, . The
length of .the piissage front America was pnt ec ti on against
exeeSsiv'e'itifpenh.tiOn. As to Canada!: Which' was an integral
part of 'the ietrielie; he theught the:Canadian landowners .and
toragrOwers idiilei.entitled to the advantage securea to thein,by
the law now in progress. .
• Tarot FILUITSBOROV6IItoneeired it imtisalliletci adopt
a perfectlerpernianient systems read upon die iwiwk: rep:ratted
that the,subjecitehAde.been. ee%rtd, at..present, the, peitation,
which existed arose not-frelii tie neceseitY;blit'flone tiie expec-
tation of • 1 " - , •
Lord KlMl,thought that it was admitted on• all *ides that
a change was
.neceseary, and that the protecting price. web* too
high, it watt doing eereatinruetice to the consumers not to make
the alteration this-yeai., If the: object was• to do ate-ictejustice-
to both sides, it might be-done at, once by fixing a protecting
price suffleieot to remunerate landowners, to the amount of the
exclusive burthens which ilieY 'lsbricirich as the Poor Laws,
the church -It ates.., and the Tithes, and he thought that 4., turfy
of 1.25. per quarter on wheat would be .a fair compensation to
the landlord tar all had a right to conceived that. the
measure Ought to be a'Govemthent measure', and 'would roach
rather entrust it to TtlieNoblee Earl opposite, And to the Pre,
sident of the Boerd of Controul, arbitretorse than to a Par-
habientary'Corrimittee. The last coarse won!d'orily'len.d to use-
d'elays. - •

.The pr CARBERRY supposed that the Noble Baron
rncan to Lave said the President of the Board of 112;ade, In-
stead of that of the Board'af Confront - '."'

I Joh: '.l lt 1.7, differed from hi a (Noble Friend, ( Lard..K in g)
who had argued for inamediatcly.prneeedingin,agrelt,question
which in every interest in the "country., He tlioutent
laborious and .iirolOhg.ed 'investiatitln absolutely riees;(ary.—
Indeed the - existing systern•hadbeen.llitherk sucatsibl,:lnd
beneficial a) all classes, and it -onlhc,to,,be a aerioto.t question,
with his Friend and iheMuSe.; Whether it!saLiteratitin.
would be egnall:si-advantageous; ;'''' 7 • . •
Zrbe Peticiob was then laid on the table.
The,MAke of ATHOL presented a Petition from the Land-
osvtier'ot "Fifeshire against any alteration in the Coin Laws.—
Laid on the table.

Earl, BROWNLOW presented a similar Petition from cer-.
tain Irindholders in the wont/ of Lincoln.—Laid on the.table.
. • ,
---Adjo:trntA.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. DOUGI4 A S'fireSented it l'etiti(in from Berwick' against
the timing al #.1.. t;od.Fishery (;oropany. , • - . .. .
- .111 r. PALNEn. presented several Petitions from the Owners
and*Occtipiers of Land in the County of lierks, against any
alteration in the Cprn- bow S..- - .

Bcx•rox, presented .a Petition from the illannfac,
turers of for a revision of the :.orn Lairs. Also,
a lir/kith:ln fronytheCitureh.Niartlent; &c: of Christchurch, Spi-
talfields, for a repeal of the Assessed:Taxes. : •
Sir ELIAB HARVEY prcsente.d a Petition from 'Chelmsford,
and also one from the. Hundred Dengy, against- any altera-
tion of the Corn LawS.- • " -

11.1r.76. DA*sex brought up certain Papers horn the•Hdine
Office.

Mr: NE presented a Petition from the Chu rehwar-
&e. of Three Pioislies in•the City of Exeter, -against any
.further concessions to the Roman Catholics. ,

IitiSKISSON. presented a Petition from the Merchants of
Dundee, to be allowed to bond Corp. ' AlSo, Petition froni
the Rawer Merchants of • Liverpool, against any alterations of
the Irish Butter Laws. Also, a Petition from the Millers of
Liverpool,..for the protection of the 17 INT Trade. Also, a Pe-
tition from the Merchants of Liverpool, for a- revision of the
Corn Laws. - -

Mr. BRIGHT -hegg:ed thel3onse would interfere between
the Country and the Uoveininent, and bring about a speedy
detisidir tit the question reverting the Corn Laws. Nothing
could be more injurious than to leave things in their present
unsettled state. till next Session.

, __ . • .
'Mr Du sconnu presented a'Petition froth the 'North Rid-
ing of York Shire,
.praying the establishment of Piotecting
.Duties on Foreign Corn. . .
Mr. S. COOPE it Presented a petition from the Merchants of
"sligo for a revision .of the Butter Laws.

• Sir J. MACK IN. TOlll presented a petition from the county of
Ross against any alteration in the Corn _Laws. .
Sir J. WIN-NrmuTos: presented a petition
.for an alteration
oldie Corn taws.

.- Mr. DIJOIYALE presented four petitions from the county of
Warwick against any alterations in the Corn LAWS, except as
regarded the taking of the averagei.
FlaxxEs presented a similar petition from a place in
Gloucester. , - '

Mr. R x presented eleven petitions against any alteration
in the Corn Laws.

111 r. CdAPLIN- also presented several petitions against any al.
teration in the Corn Laws..

111 r. WH TAI 0 took that opportunity to say that nothing
should induce ltini not to proceed on Thursday next with the
motion of which he had given notice. The course he proposed
was, -to move that the House resolve • itself into a Committee
on the Corn Laws, when he should submit certain Resolutions;
which, if 'agreed to, wouldafterwards be embodied in a Bill.

• Mr. S: WORTLEY. postponed- Lord GowEa'g Motion re;
peet in Ica Pro.vision for the Roman Catholic Clergy. till Friday
.
nest.
• The Cutlery Bill was ordered ta be 'read a second time this
day six months. • • - • 7 . •
...lir. S. Wourt.Er presented- a petition from the Mayor, Al-
dermen; &c. of LeedS, against further concessions to the Roman
Catholics;. also two • petitions' from- the Owners and Occupiers
of Land in the county of York, against any alteration of the
Corn Laws.
S Row I..ASSD HILL presented a petition from Salop, against
any further concessions to the Roman Catholics.
Sir. Will. WATKINS WYNN, presented a petition from
Wrexham, in the County of Denbigh, against any further con-
cessions to. the RoMan Catholis. The Honourable Baronet
did not coincide with the petitions ; but, on the contrary, if
thy.statements of what took place elsewhere last night were
correct, - he was more. than ever impressed with the necessity'
ot'bringing the Catholic Question'to a speedy termination thin_
ing the present reign. The evidence which was given before
the, Committees
.must convince every man that hitherto the
CathOlic4 lad been debarred of their rights on the -strength of.
mere prejudices.

Sir '1'.11.3T1-113RIDGE, for one, rejoiced at the declara-
tion which, was made in another place last night, and which
was calculated "iti'inspire the country with confidence. As to
the evidence to *hid) the Honourable Baronet had referred, it
oitght .to :be. recollected that it was exparte—that all which
had been oft:e.red was on one side of the question, and whethet
th:e examination was finished or not, such evidence was no
ground to legislate on. Many questlims relative to Ireland had
yet to be fairly and fully sifted before, a just conclusion could
be come to.

Sir JOHN BRYDQES congratulated the House and the
country on the declaration which had been mado by an Illus-
trious Person elsewhere.—(Cries of Order, order; Chair, chair.)
—lie was riot aware that he had been oat of order.
Istr. SPEAKER -rouse and assured the Baronet he wa'S
out Of order. Nothing could be more•disorderly . than to refer
to what had takeu.place- in the other House of Parliatnent.,•
The' on. 'Baroriet, h4ireler, . was'the best judge Whether the'
retitainder of-his Speech would be cOMpatible with' the rules of
the:Honse. • .
'
SIR .1. BRYDGES resumed. lie bowed ,to the decision of
the Chair:
He Should make every exertion oppose the itill
ntiw before Parliament. • In doing so, he denied that he was a
bigot:, but he never could consent to exchange:the pure bless-
ings. orthe PrOtestant faith fur the disgtlOng
the Ifontan• CatfinfiC 'worship. mummeries of
He cOngratulated the louse mummeries
the'numeTimi petitions •whitii had been presented again*t‘the
Catl.mike Bill, and.wou/il as, far as ill hint layi, put.off the evil
. •
Land
day with Which that 'measure threatened the.country.
Sir THO4lAir 14e;14i1BRIDGE. iiSeiiiea ,
:6,in -petition4- from
the OwDep•anil Occupiers of Land in' New Nikon and another
place againSt any alteration in the Corn haws also a petiii9n
front Chant,
Window Tax. ' - -...;
'hi S6ineisitshire 'or are Peal or the Muse anti
' Sir W 4. INGiEBY presented fire petitions against anralte-
ration,in the Corn Laws. . .
aptain.:lloim presented a similar petition from Borouo-
*WO; county of pork: ; . .. .' T 1 "
Sir JOHN WELorrxsLEY presented:a-petition frora-Woj-1

verhampton, praying that the County Courts' fill might have
a concurrent jurisdiction with the Court of Requests.
Lord ALTHORP said that it was his wish that the concur-
rent jurisdiction prayed for should be embodied in the Bill, and
he should accordingly do sty.
Mr. HUME rose to postpone his motion for to-morrow to
the 10th May. He also presented a petition from the Opera-
tive Shipwrights of Newcastle•hipon-Tyne relative to the Com-
bination Laws.

Mr. ilENisox presented a petition against the Duties on
Beer from Great Cocidesham.

Lord BE LG RAVE.preTientea a petition from the Owners and
Occupiers of Mills, in Chester, against the Importation of Fo-
feign Van'

Mr. WHITMORE presented a petition from Nailsworth
for a revision of the Com Laws ; and a similar petition from
Bislty; • , '
Mr. WELLS presented a petition 'from Maidstone against
-:aary- further-,concessions to-._the -Roman Catholics._ He was a
tfriend to Irelandebut he dud not think that.the King's Corona-
ion Oath would allow Such ameasure to pass.: ' •
Mr. ROBARTS said, when lie first came into that House,
he had the same prejudices as his
.Hon. Colleague; but, after
the, speech of the Attorney,...General for Ireland, and that of
the Right /lon. the Seeretary -for Foreign Affairs; he. regretted
he had ever voted against Catholic Emancipation ; and no con-
sideration on earth should,- in future induce him not to support
that question.
Mr. .1. SIIIITH bore testimony to the declaration of 'the
Ilon: Member for Maidstone' that he was the friend of Ireland,
and he. therefore .the mare deplored his opposition to the Ca=
tholic Claithe. After, '163 Members -of the House had from a
sense "ial" 'duty voted -for the present Bill, he ihnost doubted'
whether this petitions, whiehivas directed against that decision;
ought to, tie: received., At all events, althoush he,was stirs
there "%cis iuithing disrespectful' in the language of the peti-
tioners, too much care could not be' taken- by- Honburable
Members in , pOrsuing similar petitions before they were sub-
indted to the House.
.111r.'IVELes explained.
Mt Secretary PEEL took that opportunieyf of stating, that it
would be most convenient if it were settled before hand, in what
order the • several Bills relative to the Roman Catholics would
be disetiesed: had heard that the Hon. 31einlierforStafforcl-
shire would move the second reeding of: the Elective Franchise
Bill this evening, and/that the Catholic Relief Bill, was to go
into a Commit tee on some subsequent day. He wished for cor-
rect itifornratiOn bn the Subject, as on the conviction that one of
those tneSsures'waS•to be tdebated last- night,. he .postponed a
eleeiee which. he had intended,to bring forward.,
Sir, F.I3ITP.DETT' stated in reply, that if he could• not get.
the Iternaii Citholia Relief Bill into a Committee to-night, he
intended to postpone that stage to Monday next.
Mr. Secretary P,EELshould trespass agaip on the House to
eriintion; that as the principle of the Catholic Bill was carried
on Friday last, he should noton the question for leaving -the
Chaie to go into the Committee take the sense of the House,. as
thict appeared to him to apply to the principle of the measure
which had been already decided. He should hoWever consider
himself, notwithstanditige' at-liberty to object in Committee to
Such of the clauses of. the Bill as. be disapproved of, and to
divide the Committee, if necessary, upon those points ; and he
ftirtheegave notiCe,'tliatif the 'hill passed through a Commit-
tee, he should, -on itsahird .reading,, also take the sense of the
House. .
Getreral GAcCOYNE said a few wordi, which were inau-
dible in- the gallery: •
Sir 'l'. „LETH BRIDGE felt convinced, 'however desirops
maatellbn. Members might be to have the Right Hon. Secre-
tary for a lehder in their opposition to this; bill, they should not
deem themselves beand to follow precisely the course which he'
had pointed oat. lur his own part -he trusted the Bill would
not be allowed to go into a Committee at all..
Mr.' Secretary PEE!, did not wish to hind any one to the'
rule he prescribed tbr himself., 'He, however, put it-to the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for.Westminster7 whether it would
net bathe most advisable determination to fix Monday, next
for going into the Committee. '
Sir F. BURDETT should adopt the course pointed out, if,
after the decision on the Hon. Member for Stafford's Bill, this ,
evening, it would he hypos •ible to go. into the ComMittee at in
early ur.
The petition was then read ; and .after .a few words from
Mr. Mr. J. Seirrit, Lord- CLIFTON, and Sir E.,
KNATCHBULi., in explanation, ordered to be laid. on the table -
and printed:
• CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
Sir F. BURDETT said, that ashe thought it would be more
agreeable to the House to, have some certain knowledge as to-
the period for the next discussion upon this Bill, he would name
Monday' for that purpose.
The Order of the Day for tha House going:into a Committee
upon the Catholic Relief Bill, was then read, and postponed to
Monday. • , •
Lord VALLEToRT presented a Petition from East Staner,
praying for a revision of the Corn Laws.--.-Ordered to be
printed.
Sir M. RIDLEY posponed his motion, which stood fur Thurs-
day next, to Thursday,,May 12.
Mr. LAMBTON presented a Petition from Mile End, praying
for a repeal of-the Window Duty/—Laid on the table. -
Mr. U. BROWN presented a Petition from Liam, in favour
of the Catholic Claims.

14,1 rd RECTIVE obServed that this petition was signed by
upwards of 12,00 persons.—Ordered to be printed. •
Mr.. W. SivitTli presented a petition from Norwich signed,
by 13,000 inhabitants, praying fOr a revision of the Corn Laws.
Ordered to be printed. •
Mr. JotiN SMITH presented a petition .from an individual.
who was Clerk of Appearances in the Court of
.I(ing!s.Bench,.
Ireland, complaining that he had net received adequate rem.,
ncration for the loss Of his situation.
Mr. GOULBURN said that he had had the statement of
this, and he believed other individuals similar:y situated, before
him, in his official capacity' in. Ireland ; but he had not seen any
thing in his claim requiring that it should be entertained.
Mr. S. Rtc E supported the claim of the petitioner.
The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. HOME presented a Petition from the Operative Colliers
of Ayrshire against the Combination Laws.—Referred to- the
Committee on the said Laws. . .
Mr. LtJsursoTozz presented a Petition from two: Parishes
in Canterbury against the Catholic Clainis.--;--Ordered to be
printed. . . .
Mr. MoNcx postponed his Motion,
evening, till to-morrow. which stood for this
Mr. secretary PEEL obtained leave to bring in a Rill to
bring the Laws of England into
,operatioa in Bermuda in the
trial of ofinders.

IRISH ELECTIVE FRANCHISE 'BILL.
LurrbErro N said, that in rising to move that this Bill
be now react for the second time, he must entreat pie indul-
gence of the House while he endeavoured to explain the nature
,and objects, as well as- the advantages of the measure. The
•1 motive by which he was impelled to bring: it forward • sprung
from the conviction, that the present mode- of exercising the
Elective Franchise in Ireland was pregnant with the ruin of
the 'property and population of 'that country. And he- was
the more induced to choose the present time, for -urging .it on
the adoption of the House, because he thought that any mea-
sure which should assimilate the exet-cise of the elective fran-
chise in Ireland to the practice of England, which should tend
to destroy the multiplication of fictitious but yet efficient
voters amongst the poor, and for the most part Catholic po-
pulation of Ireland, was an indispensible accompaniment of a
measure for restoring their rights to the higher orders of Catho-
lics. From the moment of his giving notice of this Bill a cry
bad been raised against it, and industriously propagated, on the
alleged ground of its being adisfranchising Bill. He should be
able to chew the fallacy of this charge; but before proceeding
to do that, he would just point out that be had actually begged
for a postponement of it to this day, in order to make the more
effectual provisions for tli protection of vested interests.
With reference to that ground of objection, too, it was mate-
rial to observe that the Act by which the elective franchise
was enjoyed-by 40s. freeholders in Ireland, would expire in the
course of eight years from the present time. Ile would how-•
ever at once state, that the object of the provision he had added:
to his Bill was to make it prospective only. This could be done
by enacting that all registries of freeholds should be good
which were made pending this Bill in Parliament. He trusted,
therefore, the House would see that the. most unqualified atten-
tion had been paid to vested interests.- The Bill was only
calculated to check the creation of votes; not to disfran-
chise. With reference to the object he had in view, he
would freely declare, that if the Irish leasehold voters had
at all resembled the electors of this country, he (NIL
Lit-
tleton) would have been the last man to trespass upon
them. But. it was because he thought the samo characters
in the two countries were totally dissimilar, because he
thought the prevailing practice in Ireland kept down the .real
freeholders of the country, checked not only the expression,
but absolntely destroyed the existence of public opinion, and
instead of being, as in this, country, as source of strength to
the landed interest, was a means or weakness and degrada-
tion..--for these reasons, he wished this Bill, to stop the further
progress of so pernicious a system, to be enacted. By the tern*_
freeltulder in England, was understood one who had an abso-
lute fee -simple, amounting to 40S. ; it also applied to the
holders of an annuity or rent-charge to that amount. There
of the oldest 'Roman
were also some. few instances of variation from the established
rules in cases, however confined to Bishops' leases, and some
case was different in Ireland. . They did not always find there
'Catholic' familfei in
the leaseholder a • bon fide freeholder in the same character ns
the English. a
He -ragged a Miserable. existence, dependenttor„
upon the produce of the sOil for 'life,the country.
scarcely scraping
II ci.
pence- clear anima profit from his freehold as it was ca

He was always in arrears for rent, and liable to be put into
gaol at the caprice or vengeance of his landlord, who, never-
theless, he was ashamed to say, obliged him to go annually
before the authorities of the land, and perjure himself.—
(Hear !)--He was also driven with the herd of voters to the
hustings to support principles of which, were he conversant, he
Would perhaps disapprove. He need scarcely, he believed,
tell the House, that theie voters were not like the electors
of this country, solicited for. their votes. There was a degree
Of participation in the working of the British Constitution
with which the. Irish voter,was not acquainted. He had been
informed that to canvass a leaseholder in Ireland 'was an of-
fence -which invariably involved the daring innovator in all
-the-consequences-of a hostile-meeting with the landlord ; and
and that it was a ruled point in the Court of Honour, that the
man who had been guilty of such a breach of the individual
irights of ,another was bound to receive his fire without return-
ing it.—(A laugh.)—For further particulars upon this interest-
ing subject, with- which lat did- not profess, tnticb abstract- ac-
quaintance, he would reterihe House to his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Galway (Mr: R. Martin), a highly accomplishedGent/email in,these Matters. The""-Catholic Prick, alone was
qualified to trespass upon-.these electioneering preserves, and
this he- was enabled to' do to the ciangerotis excitement 6f ani-
mosities.- He hoped that every one who then heard hiM
in justice to himself, to Ireland, and his country, read by the
body of evidence upon the state of Ireland, with which they had
lately been furnished. - UpOn. that evidence he was content to
rest his. measure. They would there find the system of Os. free-
holders reduced to the mere erection of mud huts upon a piece
of common land, and to aye the phraSe otone of the witnesses,
that the electors-were, in reality, but a 'fr mere mass of mere
rabble." Mr. O'Connell -properly called, them a part of the live
stock of the land, and said' that the Creation of voters to any
extent was' the: easiest.thing hOhe' world. In justice to
O'Connell, however, he. must add, that he observed it was
still a great thing for the Irish peasant to have a vote upon the
a foriY shilling qualification.—(Hear !)—Who, indeed, among
the friends of the Catholics would doubt this when he ,knew.
that the power thus conferred had been of :qv greatest, assist.
ance in adiAncing their claimi? 'Mr. lirallack, of tiownpa--
trick,•stated-in- his evidence that the tenant has no . freedoni. of
choice whatever, that his landlord always leaves half a.year's
rent unpaid that lie' might Suddenly distress him for it if' he
should •be -unfavourable. to his views. He also retained the
power of cutting off some of his privileges.- --Thug it- would be
seen that nothing could be more demoralizing than this sys-
tem.„ Han English County Member.were• to speak': of dis-
tressing his tenant for rent in. order to make him vote in
his favour, he' would inevitably receive 'at the next:election
a 'dismissal" from the honour of serving the County. In
Mr. Blake's evidence the,
,folloWing question and.answer oc.
curred • •

" Q. Do you think a considerable outcry would be raised in
Ireland if it was proposed to raise the quaitication.of forty shit-
ling freeholders ?' A. If the forty-shilling freeholders were
persons of independent property, exercising through their pro-
perty a free choice„ I think it would.produce a very serious out-
cry ; but I do not think they are persons of 'a description likely
to have much feeling on the subject."
—lf this Bill passed, it was to be obierved that the Irish free-
holder would gain an equality with the Protestant, so far from.
losing any thing.—(Hear !)-,--But the landed proprietory would
be Most benefilted by such a change,_ in the improvement which
would accrue to their property. There was one striking mark
of demoralilation proceeding from the present system in Ire-
land, which he had .not noticed. This was the interference
with the sanctity ,and obligation of an oath which it caused.
One of the witnesseti.declared
,that the multiplication of oaths
had, the direct tendency to create a feeling of indifference with-
regard to them.. This was among the greatest evils of the sy
tem. The first Act for limiting the elective franchise was th a
of 'Remy- Vh, enacting- that none but freeholders of 411 s.
year should vote for Knights of the Shire.
_Blackstone ob-
sefved that this was: founded. in good reason, seeing that,
those whose interests were under this amount were so com-
pletely villers of the Lord, that they did not deserve to
be trusted with such- a: privilege. It wits-:•to be observed,
however, that few in this country since that had possessed
40K. freehoicri, without holding more valuable property.
This had. been the course with-regard to England. How
had it been with regard to Ireland ? In 179:i Parlianient gave
the elective franchise-to the peasantry. 'The -consequence; as
might have been expected, was that the intention of the law
was evaded, and the posi,ese fell entirely into thd hands of priest's
and large propyietors of land, who multiplied the qualification
as' far as they possibly could; The Legislature upon this inter-
fered, and ordered that the
,qualification should not be complete
without actual occupation °rale land: Still the old evils con-
tinued—new ineans,of,,evasien were devised.. A .new measure
came out requiring that the freehold should be registered one
year before inning,' and shoUld be renewed every seven years.—
An Act of the Session before lait provided against the multi-
plication of votes by means of joint tenancy. This was known
in Ireland by the name of Brown's Act, and was decisive against
the elective rVit of joint tenants. Here then was a distinct Act
of Disfranchisement,- Which went to .dispossess- the parties of
the means of promoting the success of the Catholic Cause. He
.should be glad to hear from those Gentlemen who had shewn
themselves favourable to this Bill what consistent groubds of
opposition they could have against the measure he now present-.
ed to their notice, and which was, destined to assist the Cause of
Emancipation. As to the amount of qualification it varied in
the minds of different individuals from bL to 101 and 201. The
exact aniouet..must retnain in the breast of the-. House. For his
own part he was afraid 51. would be tantamount to 40s. as to
the evils now felt; but he should think they would scarcely
venture to swear falsely to 101. obnoxious as that would make.
them to the notoriety of their neighbours. As to the advantages
of the measure he thought it would operate as a bounty upon
that class so ninth wintedia Irelaini-e.he meant the-Yeomanry.
( Hear!)—He also thought that the purification of
,the'elective
franchise would be a greater security to Protestant interests and
Establishment. Ile was convinced, however,in whatever way
it might act, she result wohldebe henefitial to Ireland. Ile
should beg leave to found hie.opinion in this respect upon the
sentiments of 'two Gentlemen who had given evidence most
opposite in their views, and similar only- in their great talents.
Ile meant the Hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Leslie Foster) and
Mr. Blake. The Hon'. MeMber fUr Louth was asked :
; "CI: What is-your opinion of the effe-ct• of the operation of
the elective franchise, in respect of 40s. freeholders since the
Act of 179; ?-A. I have no hesitation in saying (and I never
met with 'any Gentleman who would differ from me in private,
whatever he might say in public), that, however beautiful in
theory it may be to admit persons possessed of 40s. freeholds to
la participation in electing their Representatives, in practice it
tends to any thing but their own- freedom or the assertion of
their own privileges; and that it has had the operation of add-
ing very considerably to The number of the existing population
in Ireland, and still more to their Misery.' A More mistaken
view of the subject could not be-, than to_ suppose there, is any
freedOm'Cif Choice practically existing on the part of those per-
sons; it is a clear addition of weight to the-aristoeracy, and net
to the democracy, in elections.", • ~-
The Hon. Member was also asked which way the contest would -
turn if the Priest and Landlord were to come'into contact. lie
unhesitatingly answered that time Priest Would drive the Land-
lord out of the field—" he thought they had done it whenever.
they had tried." He also stated that the effect . of raising the
qualification would be to throw the -elections more into the
hands of the Protestants.- If , then his Honourable Friend was
afraid of the appearance of half' a dozen Catholic Gentlemen
in that House, why did he oppose this Leasure, which, by
raising the qualification, , would have. a tendency to decrease
the Catholic influence ? lie was bound, however, to state
with regard to this part of his Hon. Friend's sentiments, that'
he wished to raise the qualifiCidion to He should next
refer to the evidence of Mr. Blake. He walirof opinion that the
hands of the Protestant landholders would be strengthened by
raising the qualifitation,' and that this, the elective- franchise,
would rest upon the Constitutional basis of property. Here lie
would stop, but that there-was one further answer of this. Gen-
tleman's which he thought compriSed all the political and. moral
reasons for a measure of this nathre.' It was as fbllows
4. The Act of 17913,t00k things atehe ,wrong end; it. ele-
vated the lower orders, and left the higher in a state of depres-
sion, The security nf, the Protestants. in. Iraland is in • the
strengtliiif property against numbers ; .what you have done is
to grant to the Roman Catholics a privilege in which number
gtiiipwt'oonit:tihdisboenqi:
tells against property,' and tn.withhold a priiilege in whichpro-
perty tells against 'lumber. ou allow the lowest orders to vote,
anti you do not allow the higher ordere to sit. I certainly should.
consider', in the settlement of the-CatholiC Question, if ever 'it
is to- be settled, that the qualification for the exercise of the,
elective
intticeotonun'tsi)escreoedu
altered." .
'Thies"was' his question.
reviewede
ls) teioton. increase
eaar' sled:
vision must take place. To attempt to rectify the system by
With. reference, to-, the
re.
Li
iila:lLineary;nuoprocncotlaliepollitela-pritednetioprle;rn.
character which the Hon. Member for Code Castle had given
this Bill, viz. :—" Odious, unconstitutional, arbitraiy, and ty-
rannical ;".he could not help suspecting that much of its odium
in his eyes, proceeded from its tendency to seance some of the
ntleiewenv
Hon. Member's new recruits,. and 'inflict the
disgrace of defeat
upon the old adherents
,of thiS felling reuse: (fleas !)--There,
had been a•great desertioh to the polalar side of the question e.
and it would Become ;it
extensiv
The question ;would
never again remain statiOnae. ;
was 'the time for. causingthe question. Tlic Catholic` Priesthood' and Laity were pre-
pared now to concede mere than they before.. They
ever were
were now willing to subse
e to any einulitions, and hold out
the hand ot fellowship; with oblivion for the past. He shoUld
he
not act honestly if 1;1
--
. (•" not
sav that among his constituents-
some were opposedto him;; but the feeling he thought,' sprung
niorefrom eintlp.ithy than politiod I,ri'mment. For his own
hart he should uLiver cease t be convinced
• °zealous tare cause, .

as he was in his conscience that until Parliament granted these
just claims there would be no peace or security for the empire.
The lion. Member concluded by moving the second reading of
the Bill.

Mr. LESLIE FOSTER and Mr. BROUGHAM rose at the
same time. There was a considerable cry for the latter Gen-
tleman, but he gave way to Mr. Foster.—That Hon. Member
then proceeded to observe, that he intruded himself thus early
upon the House in consequence of the allusions which had been
made to his evidence given in another place, where he was -
under obligations to deliver his sentiments freely. He had al-
ways said that there was an improper degree of influence in
the hands of the Catholic Clergy, and heemust therefore always
have been anxious to see that abated. Ire would however sug-
. gest, as an individual, that the removal of particular evils might
lead to the introduction of others more consequential. If his
Hon. Friend would only follow up his .oevli principles, and not
direct this Bill merely to catch - certain votes he would be
sa-
tisfietl.- wouldethen--epply• the remedy wherever the-evil of :
fictitious freeholders , existed, and withhold it were it did. not.
(IMar, hear !)2—Neitlierof these; liweVer; did hi Brink-the
Bill calculated to accomplish, but on:thecontrary he ,conceived
it went to make thesystem more ohjectionable and unconsti-
tutionabthan it -nciW was. Ile lead 'some idea that this was `the
rock upon -.which the measure would eventually be Wrecked.
He would here wish to sey a word abouta measure. that was
passed in the first year of the reign of his- Present Majesty,
without: even a speech being made upon it,orlitt being noticed
in any way whatever. It was the new Election Acte,tor which, ,
he believed, they were indebted to the Honourable Member
for Queen's County (Sir H-: Parnell). ' By this Act, any free-
holder who regiatereci for a-40a. freehold was obliged teeproduce
the instrument of his title, and to. occupy. He could not vote
Without producing proofs to this-effeett - Now, there *ere many
persons, wise hail built mud hovels upon commolis,• who 6uld
swear they were entitled to hold. • But if they quashed the 40s.
freeholders by this Bill, these occupents":would have such in.
fluence, .that they would be; able, in some counties, to return
two Members. The principle which went`to cut np. the decep-•
tive franchise-should apply to: theta, and he called itpen' his
Honourable Friend-to go this_ length. He was even more et-
licate about the destruction of the elective: franchise. than. liiS
Honourable Friend. For' his part, lie should wish that no one
should be allowed to.vote unless he possessed two acres of land
with his' freehold. He would-apply the principle •to tenants in
fee.as well as tenant's for life, exempting only those who liVed in
the vicinity of great towns for
_other reason's.. This he thought would be the fairest regulatitiri-L,one Which would not touch the
bona fide freeholder, but which would reach the obnoxious
class. In one county he knew there were 150,0 f tite electors
he had spoken. - There were also 3;500 40s. freeholders. - But
destroy; the 3,500, and this 150, which might- perhaps be' in-
creased to four or five hundred, wound carry all before them.
The Hon', Member coneluded by repeating Iris- desire to see the,
principal of the present measure impartially applied--to tenants
in fee as well as-to tenants for life, exempting all such as were
in the vicinity of market towns.—(Hear !)
Mr. BROUGHAM began by profeSsing hirbself to he very
imperfectly informed on the question before the House. He
felt all the anxiety which' Such a want of information was Cal-
culated to produce ; an anxiety increased by the, awful circum.;
stances—for he would call them awful—under which thefriends
Of the Catholic Question were placed, who were called upon,
whether willing or not, to enter upon the discusgion of a
measure- having no natural or neeesSary, connection .With that
great question, and which was - calculated to defeat all the
objects which that qiiestion was intended to promote. Tile .
present Bill had been mixed up with the Bill for relieving the
Catholics, in a very remarkable way.. ''lt was read a first time
immediately after-.the other had' been 'read a second time, it
was now to; be read a seeond time, just as the other was ping
into a Committee, and it *ould'go into a Committee_abciue the
time that the other was carried td the
,Upper House. In short,
all the proceedings were purl passe, But it was not• this '
circumstance• -alone of which he comPlaihed.- The whole
proceeding was 'contradictory and absurd. The House, was
called- upon to provide a security Against the effects of
its 'own measures. There was a claitse•ln the Bill which
said,. that it was to into operation six • months after snipe_ -
other should. be passed by. the House. Of a shriller pro-
ceeding he had never •• heard. There was no "eXampleof it in
the wholebegislative. History of such a wise and venerable
Body as the Parliament of Great Britain. lie complained ;
Of being placed in a cruel alternative.' Ile was a.sincere friend
of. the Catholic Question. From the first Moment he had ever
considered the subject, he was solemnly convinced of its ne-
cessity,' and ever since he had been in that House he had
steadily and conscientiously supported it by his vote. Now it was about to be carried; homes placed in the cruel pre.
dicament of being called on to vote foe another measure on
which lie had little information, except what. was most' eontta-
dictory—a measure which-, on the very face of it, sounded in •
disfranchisement, or else of being told that he prevented the ,
carrying of 'a measure which he held to be absolutely neces- •
sary to the safety of the State. That was his chief coniplaiet,
and yet he would_ not go so fir es -to pronounce against the
soundness of the measure, because he knew nothing of its me-
alaelrgehi its character;
portio:loi the it tended to the
ple, aaddnoisfrainn
c:
beenqrliiiitisisr,eymllleatndtwa enteredsnovel
of
into as. to its necessity. • The, Honour-
able Mover of the Bill had referred"4O evidence of the
Ilonourabk Member for Lowth (Mr, Leslie Foster), as 4n F,
of the chief supporters of the Bill, and yet that Tloneur-.
able Member had just risen in his place and said that his evi-
dence. ought not to support the - Measure. That Honourable - •
Witness aaiti, that either the measure was unnecessary, or it
ought to go,much farther. He contended that there ought to.,
be no forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland at all, as they. were
already much too numerous both in Ireland and England,—
This discrepancy hetween the statement of one Hon. Gentle-
man and the eyidenceef another, ought to be a reason why
the House should pause before it- Passed. a Bill which went to
deprive' one portion of thepeOple of their elective frepchiee,
and to prevent another portion front acquiring it hereafter.
He told, however, that the measure was espoused by.
large and triumphant sect in the country—the political m0n0....
mists. True, some of this sect went so far in their disputes
about " the real nature of value," as to persecute their oppo-
nents, as in the case of the attack made upon the Moral cha-
racter of his friend Mr. Malthus, On account of some metaphy-
sical difference with Mr. -Ricardo. This sect had stamped with
ridicule and charged With:dogmatism ail who might oppose the
plesent measure, because this measure -wotild tend to diminish.
population, and check the- subdivision- of property. In look-
ing, however, to the evidence which had been giyen' before'
the Committee, he found nothing to slew that the measure
could have any material effect on either point. Ile had con-
sulted his Ildn. Friend the Member for Limerick (Mr. S.
Rice),-who was of the directly contrary opinion. Tens, then,
one'of the reasons urged by_ a dogmatical sect in favour of the
measure Was destroyed. But there was another sect to which
tile lion. Member for Staffordshire belonged,- which said that
the leadiil4 Catholics, both Laity and Clergy, had generously
conceded the question, although it might greatly injure their
own interests.. Now it did not at all appear from-the evidence
that any injury would be done to their interests. True, it ap-
peared from the evidence of one side, that it would diminish
the Protestant political influence ; and from that of the other,
that it would dinfish the political influence of the Catholics.
Abe Hein Member held the latter;' Mr. O'Connell held the.
former opinion. .He denied, then, that the Catholics had con-
ceded the principle of the Bill. Mr. O'Connell, who exerted
a great arid beneficial influence over the Catholics, said in one •
part of his evidence, that he should be glad to see the qualifi-
cation raised to 51. ; but in a subsequent part, he said In
my meterer judgment, it is not at-ell right to meddle with the
40s: freeholders of Ireland. I have not expressed any opinion
faVourable to raising. the elective franchise in Ireland.'? The
Honourable and Learned Gentlemen then exantined the, evi—
dence of Mr. O'Connell at some length, to shear that it would
he better to leave the subject of the 40s. freeholders to- the
effect of progressive improvement,. or to enter upon a more •
minute inquiry with respect to it. Much had been said ah4lt.
the evils of an enslaved peasantry, and the picture of that- evil.
had been drawn in the most glowing colours ; but• he. ven-
tured even -in his present imperfect 'state of information,
to, deubt whether the 40s. qualification was the real 'Cause of
the evil. • He had listened with great anxiety .to the speech
of the 'Honourable Member for 'Staffordshire, and in the -pie....
tare of . the Irish-freeholders. being driven to the poll like
droves of cattlee he did not recognise a single feature which -
did not apply to other -countries. The difference was not im,
kind but in degree. Ile could draw a picture of, What oceurred."
bi'England, 'which would be quite in keeping with :the other.:
It was customary for wealthy landlords,- with .1 numerous
tenantry who held leases at wills- to .require from the tenantry-
that they. and their sons should qualify themselves to vote ase
freeholders at . the County Elections,' or else that their least"
ahOuld 'be cancelled. Thus the tenants held their leases by
Virtue of their .freeholds, just as the Irish freeholder, kept his
bog .by virtue of --his.4os, qualification. The Honourable and •
Learned Gentleman then alluded to the case of a large town
where voters were Made in nearly the same way in whichthey-
Were made in. Ireland.. It was urged in favour of the Bill, pt.,
it would tend to destroy the debasing and corrupting. practice
of false swearing.. He should be, glad to • see that-practice '
abedialied, and'he would therefore pray the House to look at
home. Ile did not mean to speak of the Cpun;y of. Tipperary.' but of the.lo or 12 ,square feet where he then stood.—(llear
4(141, not .become those Members who were in -the h, bit of
taking-the Qualification Oath to hOld• up their hands anti thank
Goil that. ahey were not as other men. The Irish cottier swore,
perhaps, falsely as to•his qualification, and then-some Dlemb.r
;erne down to the House with a Bill to take away theequalihe
cation in order to save the -soul of the poor cottier. But the,
Irish Man "night say, " I am -thankful tor, the care you show
about my soul in disfranchising me; but wouldit not be just ase.
Well for you" to .set about' disfranchising .yourselves. Volt, *;

to the Lord Steward's Office and then into the House of Corti-
mons, and swear that you, have three hundred pounds per
annum in lands and tenements; : though you are not worth a
shilling, and have no lands and tenements.' —(Cheers.)—Tiathis
charge there was -no ansWer, except that it would be a breach
of privilege, and the poor cottier would be sent to Newgate.
But Members of Parliament went still further, for they put
down in writing the parish and county where these lands were
situated. The Irish cottier did no such thing. It did not become
them, therefore, to disfranchise the IriSlr for perjury, when
they were placed in a similar predicament themselves. But
steels practices were not confined to the House of Commons.
There was no niece honourable or gallant profession than that
of the Army ; and probably-the officers of that army would
express themselves avith- the greatest warmth about the per-
, juries the Irish freeholders and the oaths of Members of
Pitrliamente Yee what was the ,case in the, army ? Officers were
called to state upon their honour, 'for. sweariug was not in
their way, that they-gave no more for their commissions than the
regulatetkprice' when in facethey had, given double.—(l.lear !)
This system had been greatlialteredby the present Commader
in Chief, and be wasgladeo have the opportunity of giving him
creche for it.:. fer lie bid spoken onlyeof laymen—(a laugh),.',
but it grieved hint to say that the Clergy were not entirely free
from this pranticee The, Right Reverend .Prelates in another
Place were foremost • to express their. .-elaherrence of the crime
of perjury, hut if perjury was criminal hi:a layman, how much
mare so in a Priest: Yet they solemnly declared in the pre-
sence of God, (when called upon to take. a living, that they
weretnoyeel thereto by an inward impulse. Suppose it were
a Ilving,of .4,000/. per annum, the Incumbent declared he was
Moved by the ,Iloly Ghost to take ,upon himself the Office and
Ministry thereof., So. a .Right Rev.-Prelate, was movetlio take
the liviine of Bisluipsgate Without; valued at .4,000/. a year,
after having hot-0;0s and thousands:or tunes Voted against the
Catholic Questiop, the Dissenters' eMarriege.,Bill, and every
measure. of. retrenchment. All he Would. say was, that those
wereemyeteriee,he could not understand, though, they were
nn doubt well celculated to attain their ends. Yet the Mem-
, bees Of that Muse, the Officers. of the Army, and the Bishops,
were so exquisitely squeamish on the subject of perjury amongst
the jrisb r,cettiers. Of Custom House. Oaths
.. he .would say
nothing, because they went to benefit the.Revenue.—(Hear
Steehewere.bis sentiments as to the morel and religious parts
of the subject. He was further told, that without this Bill, the
great question of Catholic Emancipation never could lie carried.
If Any thing the world could wring a consent from him,, it
would be this circumatance,if true. -He' had not heard any
thing against the 13111. All werein its favour. It was a power-
lid bribe, therefore, to tell him that a measure so, praised would
facilitate the passing of the great question of Ethandipation.
There were high authorities in its favour. •The'Attoniey-t3le--
neral for Ireland could not have any but-the most conscienti-
ous motives .for supporting 'it. Scarcely inferior in authority
wee the Hon. Member for Westminster (Sir F. Burdett,) who,
though possessing no information beyond that possessed in
• common by the [louse, was in its favour; because it would as-
siet the measure, which, to his immortal honour, he had intro-
thiceda•
,'The authority of the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. NeW-
psrobri his right, was still higher.—That Right Hon. Member
Was one of the most disinterested statesmen. 'Whether in office
or out of office, whether in regard to the interesteaif England,
or of his own dear and beloved country, and he' hoPed: that
Ireland would hale his name in honoured remembrance; and
associate it with that of Grattan. Such' a guide, he Could. almost
be content to follow blindfold on any great constitutional ques--
tinn. But on this question all was darkness. • He had no se-
e lefty for the efficiency—none for the legitimacy of this measure.
tie suspected that it would be the source of schisms, and would
ultimately prevent Emancipation from being carried: It- was
not compatible with a full emancipation, and would make email-
ciliation unpopular, and thereby deprive_it oft ;10tlis•of tile
conciliatory effect which formed with him the principal reason
for voting fOr it. Mr. O'Connell, after expressing his dislike
to meddle' with the Elective Franchise, said, that it gave the
freeholder a political importance, it tended to keep him on
good terms with-his landlord, and gave him a stake in the coon-
ti-Y. Mr. shiel admitted that. his acquaintance with Ireland
chiefly related to the towns, yet he said that though the present
treasure would be • unpopular at first, yet it might be made
Popular by the great personal influence of Mr. O'Connell. Was
nigher round for legislating.?-4Hear, hear !),- No man had al
value for Mr. O'Connell than he had, and he looked
°lam his influence as a pledge for the conciliation of Ireland.—
tut Mr. O'Connell could not go over to Ireland, and endue-
. v9urao make that a popular measure against which he had
given evidence. The effect of Mr. Shiers opinion would be
t`,' `-‘tre the upper rinks of the Catholics have obtained
a'e passing of the great measure of -Emancipation, which will
I°)lnediately benefit us, and ultimately benefit you, and the
42lei°,,r1Y price 'we have paid for it is the destruction of your elec.
exieee franchise. But that Mr. O'Connell would never use any
argument was clear from his own evidence. He would
gei, the liberty of -laying
;loan a principle which ought to
ea! 4111 their proceedings
ve_ssere of public policy should be considered, rejected, and
:-Tpted on its own merits, and not in connection with any
(Hear
great measure, scarcely less important than itself.—
lli% (~11)!eneor, hear !)—The consequence of this left-handed,
t mode of compromise would be, that the main
question could never be fairly decided by the House. One
party would compromise with the other,
i voting. for this
bill in order to carry the other • or abandoning oning thetiir.soppati-t
_ lion to the other on the consideration
the Catholic Question ought to be carried,7:rmsii•enjgecte'di on its
own merits only. It was the most fatal 'policy in the world to
grant one legislative measure as a bribe for another. On the
zubject of rite elective franchise the House ought to be ex.'
intruding
cautious. Their ancestors had always been so, both in
Intruding and diminishing it. In recent times the cases of the
Jetty idual boroughs of Grampound, ilston, and Shoreham had
eachoccupied the attention of the House for more than one
s
elision. Vet they were now called on, instantly and without
information or inquiry, to pass a measure of disfranchisement
against all Ireland.—( Hear!)—What could be more inconsist-
ent with the general practice of the House? (The Hon. and
aeearned Member then recurred to the period 7th and lith XVil-
llaM and Mary.) When the Spliting Act, the Treating Act,
and some other measures of reform, were passed by Parliament;
and stated that they had occupied the undivided ,attention of
Parliament for a whole Session. This was the head of legisla-
tion which should be followed now. Every thing which put re--
strainta on the elective franchise should be most scrupulously
examined. The Committee now sitting on the state of Ireland
was insufficient. The present measure should be the subject
(4 a Special Committee. He wished certain important ques-
tions to be answered before he could place himself in a condi-
tion to legislate. Ile wished to know whether some other means
(mild not be adopted to meet the existing evil. The first wit.
near called by the Hon. Member for Statihrdshire was the Hon.
!ember for Louth, who said that he went a great deal further,
Fad would propose another remedy. That was quite enough.
-'n the evitience of the Hone Member for bond' the Bill had
'wen introduced, and he now rose in his place to say that the
remedy was not the right one, as there was another and a better
one. Was he 'asking too much, then, when he asked for in-
SuitY ? It was impossible to vote for tile Bill without further
Iformation. No two persons had agreed in their evidence on
e subject. -They had all given different descriptions of the
tact and the remedy. The House ought to pauee. and that pe-
tit:ea of pausing should be occupied with inquiry. Until a
taiger body of facts were laid before the House it would be un-
e to carry the measure. Conciliation was at present the great
watchword with respect to Ireland, but who would be bold
r,,,,„°°gb to say that if this Bill and the Bill for Emancipation
azure carried, the one would so recommend the other, as to
-
the benefits without incurring the evils of either ! The
17netite of both must be reinoteLethe evils ot' one immediate.
edaena' one did say So, he would admire him as a bold and con-
g4int prophet, without feeling disposed to take him as a
eva'',,; Catholic Eancipation, simple and unadulterated,
10 'l4 be a pledge toll
reland that Parliament was determined
; hut if it were .accompanied with another
4--lea'"?onreciliate
traction,.
, bottomed on other, views, and liable to Anis-
all its conciliatory qualities would be destroyed.
eeliale4awae his foreboding view of the sebjec. If he were. dis-
lu, to make . the _sacrifice of his opinion on the present
Would's'" would ensure' him that the Catholic Question
be carried.? They were reckoning without. their hosts—
e:Y were reckonin without their Lords.—(Hear ! )--It was not
li:l4ei)er• that lie should make-allusion to die other House of Par-
AL,"ent- but he might allude to what passed in another place.
In -tr°4feissed that he, felt great alarni at Bearing what had passed
tee,;e* other place. Ile felt alarm, not only on account of the.
er 11.4:tient of Ireland, but also on behalf of the Government
tei4ieetand ; for the stability of the menarchy, as by law esta-
Ayeae°, e--thear !)—and as settled by the-Revolution of Ilia
aleee,` Be had heard had given him such deep and serious
tie— be confessed before God thet he could not believe
t'e when he was told of it. -It was impossible ie could be
lave'
,1 he newspapers were full of libels. No man could be-
to me hilt a Prince of the Blood Royal, the ,Pres,umptive heir
to to brone, would. venture to promulgate that when he came
. • rhrone
tti7e iL„ UNICETT here arose amidst some confusion and
e7Arlieir,:- Order," and said that he regretted not having at an
teem. iltiknent risen to order and pui duo)) to the line. of argue
Z.:l°l*W by his lion. and Learned Friend ;, but as that
Passed 'n another
had said that he would not allude to what had
tee
nn another Muse lie remained 'silent. Since, however,
A4P • and Learned Friend had alluded to the publie prints
`" the opi
ouse mons of an illustrious Prince, he.owed it to. the
, to that 11l • 1! toe talt.. Illustrious Prince, to himself and to the interests
self felt so
Cause in-which the- Learned Gentleman
stud noth se e- deep an interest, to intreat him to deliberate
cuanneac'erreue any further the line of observation he had
Said, that if the inference which the Right

Hon. Gentleman had drawn from the observations of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was correct, then hisvondusions weie
undoubtedly proper. It was impossible for any one to define
more-clearly than the HOn.'and Learned Gentleman-had him-
self done the privilege and duty of Members in this respect ;
and he (the SpeAer) was not prepared to believe that hi the
subsequent part of his speech that definition-would have been
violated; If the 'inference Of* the Right Hon. Gentleman was
correct, then no doubt it would be-improper to persevere in the
same course.—(Hear!)

111 r. BROI.JUHAM. said he was convinced that his Right
Hon. Friendmeant his interruption to be in perfect courtesy-to
himself, and at the same time to be of service to the Catholic
Question. He hadinternapted'him, however, before the period
arrived when the Speaker might have considered him as. disor- •
derly. But no Member had a right to interrupt another because
he deemed that he might heciime disorderly. Such mightbethe
practice in the Irish Parliaments- but not in the English.: Here
it was the custom to take down .the words of a Member, and,
he (Mr. Brougham) :was always ready to ansi'er for any
,impropriety 'of expresSion he • might lie- guilty' of. As' to
the.charge of alluding. to. another, place, it -was a thing _which
, took place every day. Surely no one would say that he was
the first one who ever made such allusions. It was the com-
inon practice to conceal them -tinder the flimsy phrase of " an-
other plate.'.' ithlidtheett done by his • Learned; Friend (Sir)...
illackintos`h), who alluded to the Prelates, and by the Hon.
BaronetoPsiosi te (Sir WYnn).' Wiaukt it not bestrange,
Mean, and low spirited, if they were to allude to certain Peers .
in "that other oalace,: and not tolhe•highest ?, He lied Mull, the
Lord. Chancellor attacked in, this House, and 24, hours after-
wardi %tie Ilia beard the Startle! Learned Lord alliidetceitiVribtite
takert.of.bius and vindicate -himself from it., : What! .were
luSiorit to • be-Made to 'the Bishops, to the. Peers'' to the Lord
Chanceller, and not to the Princes rthe Blood ! The moment
that is done, up jumps a qiiia tintet,' and in die most disorderly-,
way accuses another ofidisorder. The whole of the Peers—the
House of lords en ntasse might be abused, but—
Colonel WODELI OUSE rose-to order. He wished to know,
a hat the lion, and Learned Gentleman meant by the two words
quirt tintet.—(Londlenglt ter. )n__
Mr. Secretary -PEEL begged to ask of theilon. and Learned-
Gentili-rsin Whether on such.an important question,'wben it
was.desirable to have a calm discussion, it would not be better
not to persist in those allu.4ions which were certain to introduce
a warmth info, the discutiiion most • unfavourable to the fair con-
sideration of. the .subjeet. •
BROUtillAffl •!Knitle; that he thanked • the ,Right Hon.,
Gentleman for his suggestion, because it was .no doubt sin-
cerely made ; but he would not forego his right to make such
allusions, inasmuch as they appeared to him most important.
It was said; that this measure ought to be ,carried because It
wmild facilitate the carryingnf the Catholic question. TWenty-
four years_ago this might haVe been-said; -but at that moment
was there a single man who believed that the Catholic ques-
don emit('• be carried.-(Hear!)—Was he then to abandon
his right as a Legislator to examine that point ? No man
could imagine that the measure of Emancipation -would
pass.
.When the .ominous news of a recent . event should go
forth to England and Ireland, it would SoundAknell of despamr
t m the friends of the Catholic Question. This-must operate On
every Member in making up his- mind. They had received
fair notice of what was to come. He would not accuse any
man of want of frankness, or want of honesty, or want of con-
*eience. But to go no farther he would say that they hid-to
encounter au obstinate frankness, an undeviating honesty, a
perverse conscientiousness, and 'nothing but the 'most perilous
boldness could encounter the resistance now brewing against,
the Catholics. Healid nothelieve that any thing• but mere votes
could carry the 4nestion. Within the last twenty hours that
which had occurred sheared that if anything could save-England
from convulsions, and Ireland from endless disorder, it must
be a large increase of votes on the Catbolic,Question. This was
the time--(Cheers.):--this reign 'was the tiin-;:;“Linid cheers)—
yet a little- while and it wouldha too line; and the 'dine would
be gone fOr ever. Yet ".a little more, slumber—a little more
folding, of the hands to sleep,".its they had slept SeSsions after
Session, and :Parliainentsafter Parliament, for the last twenty
years, and they .would find intolerance and:despotism coming
upon them " like an, sinned man," and the opportunity of sav-
ing Ireland and of p'aeirying England. would he departed from
their_grasp.—( Li ear, :hear, were'a lover of dis-
cord—(Hear.; and laugh )—".,lsarn not a lover of discord," con-
tinued the 'Hon. and Learned Gentleman; " and those who
perhapi deem Me seare' Theinselves only not lovers of discord,
because-. they prefer the' solitude Of ,unshrinking obedience to
an absolute military despotism."—(Cheers.)--He respected
every man's conseiepcs, 'and God forbid' that he should. not
give to others 'the ssaitle' toleration he ' expected for himself.
He had said.out ofesliat 'House as well' as :.in it, that the
want of conscience, of frankness, and,of. honesty, were the
last charges iie slioUld bring against any man, -hut he would
say, that honesty itself often assumed 'a perverse and per-
tinacious character,
. mid the greatest hopes and wisest mea-
sures were trustrated by a " So help them. God ;" but he
trusted in vain. It became them-then to set their House in
order. If last year the Catholic Question had failed when
there was no argument against-its-they ought to strain every-
nerve on this last occitaion.• God knew what events Might
happen, and God thrbid they should happen soon.--(Loud
Cheers.).-,-but when they did happen, although the Bill should
be carried up, novby a Majority of 19, or of 27, but by an
unanimous vote of the House and of the country though it
Streamed with blood, yet would it find a difficulty of accept-
ance on the part of the CrOwn, These were his reasons for
voting against the present Bill. It would deprive them of the
precious and inestimable opportunity of pacifying Ireland.
file House bad been timely infornied that before long it would
be imposvble to carry thr Catholie question 'without-involving
England with a perilous conflict with time Throne.—(Hear !)
Sir J. NEWPORT -said that he felt some difficult in ad- '
dressing the HouSth alter the eloquent address of his Hon.
and Learned Friend, and after the complintents which had been
paid himself', but lie felt it incumbent oft him briefly to op-
pose the statement which his Honourable and Learned Friend
had made. lie was a sincere and devoted friend to Catholic
EMancipation, anti he regarded the present Bill as likely to fa-
cilitate thovimportant measure. It was also likely to tranquil-
lize Ireland, anti to save the empire front the convulsions which
now inenacetilie He had been much surprised at the conduct
of his Hon. anti Learned Friend, who began by saying that he-
ves wholly uninformed on the subject, and ended by pro-
nouncing so' decided an opinion against it.—(Hear!)—lie (Sir
John Newport) had attended the Committee regularly, and
every facility had been !afforded for examining witnesses on
every point relating:to Ireland. Although there was great dif-
ference of 'opinion, yet every witness bore testimony to the ex-
istence of the evil and of the miserable state of the peasantry.
His: Learned Friend called it a measure of disfranchisement,
but it was not so.—(hear, hear !)—No real freeholder was to
be disfranchised ; no 'existing rights were to be affected ; but
no fittitious qualifications were to be created hereafter. He had
fronethe beginning brought to the House his honest and con-
scientious conviction of the necessity of the measure, and he
could now only reiterate what he had always said upon the sub-
ject. He could not understand' how any man, who was really
time friend of the great measure, could- refuse to adopt another,
npon the ground of its being likely to further the at-
tainment of-the first. And this, too, when the House were told
that no existing rights were to be touched, while the measure'
went, to prevent the future continuance of a mischief which every
man admitted to exist. The undeserved eulogitini his Hon.
'and Learned Friend had passed upon hit Conduct and character,
rendered still •greater the difficulties which- he should at all
-times feel in coming to a conclusion directly opposite to that of
his Hon. and Learned Friend.—(The Right Hon. Baronet hav-
ing ColleitlCred his speech; was compelled to leave the' House by
indisposition.)'
Mr. PLUNKETT commenced his address by saying that lie
had' never felt greater difficulty in presenting himself 'to time
House. • He was, however, particularly glad that his Right
'Hon. Friend, whom indisposition had compelled to leave the
House, and whose indisposition- must be lamented by every
m'an' who was the friend of 'lreland, and ithoni his lion. anti
Learned Friend had so justly described:—he was glad that when
he got up 'to answer the speech of his Hon: and Learned Friend,
and to express his entire disagreement from all its sentiments,
he could raise himself upon the high ground of hiS- Right Hon,
Friend's opinion. He could assure his lion. and Learned
Friend that neither time connection which lieforinerly had with
time Irish Parliament, nor his experience in that House had been
discredited by the interruption which he had thought it neces-
sary to make in the course of the debate. On the centrary, be
thought that his Hon. and Learned Friend- had misconstrued
the delicate terms in which he was told from the Chair that
he was grossly out of order. From the unwillingness to be se-
vere in a quarter where they always 'found tire most undeviating
courtesy, his Honourableand Learned Friend had mistaken the
decision of that high authority. He was quite aware of the
habit which prevailed of not strictly enforcing time order against
'allusion to time proceedings of the other House of Parliament ;
and. no person would be supposed to watch- it so- closely as
.to notice such allusions it' kept within wise and reason-
able bountli. But he would appeal to the House, whether,
if at the moment when he interposed, A 4reitinjury—was
not abort to: .be done-.-a violent breach of order to • be commit-
ted—(Bear, bear !)—With regard to thegreat question, he was
not blind to the signs of the timet, and agreed' With his Hon.
and Learned Friend nor only ih feeling-the necessity ofpasiing
the great measure, but'of doing it without-
the delay of an hour.
'
,—( Hear, heani A id lie would assure
)--t.halt if lie •though
his Honourable and
ileartied Friend, calling `hint' tel. Order
t liction • f
from any mari rat o the sentimenialie put: tor-
ward
t subject, he was totally wrong In his ooi • mon
ward upon iliac •
tied Friend was folio • •
-his Hon. and Lea
calculated a line, not intehd-
certainly to defeat his own
'eti; ho doubt, but
periodwhen.object,
if ever there was a every friend of Catholic
Emancipation was called upon to exert all his energies to obtain.

' not only the largest majority, but to induce a unanimity of
feeling in its Support. - Ile appealed,- theii,--to Gentlenien.of
every side, and called
,upon than to say, whether or not the
speech of his Min. and Learned Friend was calculated 'to
Union which it was so desirable to 'accomplish?
-"
' ' •
e was sin-prised to hear the argument which had
'the Hon. Member for Loath, because it was di_
(pi.)
cer. ; eii
i7ee_e Caret.i ii
st .
beers.)—He
_ thatbi
r
reedy
.'contradieted by the :evidence which he gaveliefore the
Committee under the Solemn obligation of an oath,a-it was-
-directly 'in the teeth of 'every thing which 'the Hon. Member
recommended in the Committee. Ile would nOt.repeaa the
references to•the evidence which had been so ahlteecaulected.._
bj, the lion. neither for Stafford.' -Intliat evidence the Hon.
Ilembeinconstatiay spoke of the two parties only-the landlord
and the tenant: 'lint now he objected to the Bill;•bectiaSe it
did not 'likewise disqualify 'tile holders' 'of lifc fe7n, where" the
.freehold was beneath a certain -- Vitae. Certain persons, said
i
as not Member;
had. possessed thetnselkes
directed against eertain.4ish
mons and waste lands, who ought to be disfranchised also ; and
id of .clot- tblc Honourable
eeau.ti!c.33il
tinkers,
and. others of. class, it did not come up to his wishes. _Rhea
was.surprised that such. an argument. as
,this sh mild have..-been.
used.by,the Honourable Meniber for Loath, what was his con,
sternation when he. saw. his Honourable, and Learned Friend
adopt it—and not only adopt it, but misrepresent it; and.carry
it to an extent beyond where the Hon. Member Shimself' in-
tended it sliould go. , It was impossible th at . his. t ll on ou rabic
and Learned Friend, witn the eloquence and:paw
sewhich he.
possessed, could, adopt the argument of another- an without,
giving it great additional weight-aid importance, 'lt was. eVia
dent to him, atthe•outsetaafehis Hon. and lea. ill Friend's
speech, that he felt himself in great difficulty, and id not bring
the powers of his great
.mind to the discussion i their usual
'clearness and fiqedoni.- Instead cf.-calling lath: &hitt those
. .
-powers Of ridicule for which he stood unrivalled, or that talent
'fir exposure which belonged to'him alone-----instead of -ernpl4-
• ing these against the measure, his. talents were all directed to ex-
tolling and exaggeratingthe argutuen is of the llem,-::.dember ter
Louth. No-manceeldtionbt the sincerit eel his Hont. and le-earned'
Friend's attaclnnent to the canse- of Doman Catholic fs'inanci-
pation. ale did- not rest upon- assertion, but upon4he splendid
services.which he had-rendered. to that cause. '•lttit the readi-
ness of thought, . and-the-peculiar facility of •utterance. which
were so characteristic of-hi:44lmi. and- Learned Fiend's Mind,
hail upon. the present occasion been indulged perhaps' to weak-
, ness. Things. had -fallen from him which he wA- sine would
have been rejected in his cooler- Moments, and under the in-
fluence of his-sober-judgment. He had-pressed Into the ser-
vice of his argument. all the topics calculated lin take' effect
against the great question. He told them that this laws a Bill to
prevent perjury ;• and. -then he .went to the Arnie. the Clergy,
and the. Parliament, . to sliew that perjury Might exist there also.
Now what did all this mean ?.•'l-ad it any piing taido-with the
`merits of the question ?—(Cheers.)--14et hint Iti'mg 'his lion.!
and Learned. Faiend to the test. of argument. At` at Weald be
his tern far such.a method of arguing •the qu2Sti . if lie- had
to describe it-in. another ? Would he not descril ; it aa being 113
very much _like juggle--and would lie consider it entitled •to the
attention of .serious.minds. In the whole of' his atgliment his
Hon. and Learned -Friend begged'the question altegether. ' lie
nitck-trained the measure, and diet) called upon the, II false to re,'
ject it upon-the strength of that argument.. -He caika ti., lull a
measure of disfranchisemeq t..Wli at right had-he nado so ? 'Phis
measure o f. disfran eh him en t -did not-propose.to ti atfran eh i se one
human being alive. (Cheers.)—What, then, was the discontent
amongst the people of Ireland .to be, excited by thi's measure,
what justified the telowitigasis'pezil which had. beet made to their
feelings-? With Itspebt to -the other general a:teal:ions of his
Hon. and Learned Friend, It had pleased him to sav that lie
knew not whether this meastire was good Ot not, algal he had
not the slightest intention orcondenining it Its a ateasure of it-
self. Perhaps not ; but to his fund his Hon. ,lad Learned
Itriend's intentions in that respect - bad a vely'fitgly look-a:
(Cheers'and laughter.)--,The complexion . of his speech bore a
very strong-resemblance to that of _a determined olpenent.- He
said again, that he would. not connect the two i-Uasures' be-
cause it looked like supporting the great one iby b4hery. Now
he (Mr. Plunkettfowned that he Shotild be very selacl to further
the triumph of that pressing question by any troper means
which lay within his reach. But his llop.and Learned .Friend
had so much respect
fur
the power of. argittizen Si) Much of
knight errantry in the etitise of his logic, that lie telould not con-
sent to mix is up with ang'aupport of baser kintl-ano, not if it
cost him the ohiect_of his wishes. It was really a, pity that the
important occupations of' his Hon: and Learnat Friend's •life
prevented , his 'time afrona being engrossed by . ' ell -matters.
Otherwise;-if be..nottld have turned his ;aft; ring '. to..a novel,
in which lie could have depicted all thete tleirente difficulties
and sentimentalities, they .tvonltl•better shit smelt' a witrk'than .
the House or Commons.—(Laughter.)---lie we. Id ' now state
frankly to the House what he thought 'of this me. -tire ; and he
was sure that however som m e He Gentlemen mi lit diar from
him in opinion, no hottest man would think' ties: worse -of him
Is
for taking that course. Ile theight, then, that the measure
was a good•one. But he w,mttl further state, that if' he had
thought it bad in a certain degree, but that .it.,,Atould enable
him to attain the higher end incamparable„goeit in carrying. the
great trieasaire, he would hard support,"l.it. I,llc -had -now
stated his creed, and he left theeliou.se to jutlaate,tetween him,
and his. Hon. and Learned linen& ' According;tolthe argument
of his Honourable and Learned Friend,. these, Bills placed
beside each other, and made dependent on each other, hall
no no connection. What were the facts ? They proposal that
the Roman Catholics should be admitted to hold !seats in ParS
Lament, and they were met by the assertion that the system ,
of forty-shilling freeholds would place the representation of
Ireland in the hands of the Catholics, and that a 'Wretched and
illiterate mob would till the Ilpuse of Commons.: Ile did
,not
join in these fears ; but •they were entertained; and at all
events they were advanced as obstacles to the prestress of the
great
measure. _ - ? He would tell his Hon. and Learned Feicad another
view in which they were connected. Good and right as he be-
lieved this Rill to be, he iatuld not suPportit but -fit, being de-
pendent upon the removal of the Roman Catholic:, disabilities.
As tong as the Roman Catholics Were left as they-at/ere they had
no other means of supporting their own cause, aMi.endeavour-
ing-to obtain redress. ' It appeared to him, thereflife, that there
was a natural and a necessary connexion between these two
subjects, and that his Hon. and Learned Friend luid no right to
complain of being placed in a cruel anti painfu I situation by their
' union. In fact he never saw his Hon. anti Learned Friend
more lively, than he was under his sufferings throughout the..
whole of his speech. He
.never saw his fancy more lively, his
imagination more active, or his-rhetoric more flowitig. Ile had
never seen him in greater spirits—recruiting anti enlisting into
his service every topic which' fancy could suggest as,:being most
distant from the question—than in . this situation of torture in
which he had been so cruelly placed.—( Laugh ter.)-at I e would
next address himself to others who entertained objections to
this 081. For Ins Right Ilon. Friend near him (Mr. feel), he
was perfectly convinced that if' lie (Mr. Peel) -shOu/d. think the
measure good of itself, he would be incapable of opposing it,
for the sake of increasing the opposition upon the oreat ques-
tion. since the pa.ssin4 of the Act of' 1793, which began at
the wrong; end, anti admitted the lowest anti most iintantltY to
the privilege of the elective franchise, instead of the .hest-
informed, and those who were the possesaors of' real propertV,
' what had been the consequence ? The country Gentleman
set about managing his property so as to see how many
voters he could create in order that he might afterwards be
able to trample upon their rights. In the year 1817, he re-
membered that his Right 'Honourable Friend alluded to the
subject, and thought it necessary that some remedy should be
aplied to the evil. What that reinedy should be, "his Right
lion. Friend had perhaps considered in his tnind, and would
now no doubt state it to the lipase. The evil was dreadful in
its influence upon every class of society. The landlord who
gave the peasant his forty shilling
.freehold afterwards com-
pelled this wretched being to come forward and swear falsely,
and thus the moral and religious feelings of all the-partiea be-
chine extinct. '' What was the consequence if the peasant re
• fused ? He was sure to be reduced to most shocking misery.by
his landlord, who would not think of keepini an idlo, lubberly
knave, that refused to swear to his freehOld, and instantly. nutted
him off. This was the worst of torture; the poor Miserable
creature was either compelled to commit a crime at which his
better feelings perhaps revolted, or to be turned destitute and
starving upon the' world, and thus he was dragged into de-
moralization by a power which he could not resist. - It was.
-their duty as Legislators to protect the morals or the .eountra ;
'and however good - the subject might be for the exercise of his
'Hon. and Learned Friend's pleasantry, it was not by such a
• Coarse that :the cause of "CatholieEmanciPation could be ad-
vanced. Had his Hon. and Learned Friend treated this 'notion
like a reluctant and unwilling dissentient ? ' Was it not more in
the spirit of an earnest advocate for its destruction ?—(Cheers.)
The next effect of this sySteni Was, that it involved the Land- '
'lord and the' Priest in a struggle as, to wlio should get.. passes_sion of the wretched peasant—equally degrading to hoth. What
was the consequence to the peaaant after the election was
tnier,
and he returned to his home? If he bad voted against lids land-
lord', he' Was MOR likely tedneed, to beggary by distraining for
rent,- or some other effectual means ; and this because he had
resisted th6lyi'anny of hi4-hiticilord, and under the influence of
his Priest, had obeyed the dietatva-of what he believed to be his
conscience. ii 'hat .t he had stated was not assertion only—it was to
' lielcitincl' in thd'Ovidenee' 'atiehout contradiction, and accompa
most cogent reasoning and stateaent. This. Bil, was , nie4 1 the ' , - ' f 1 with 'the purity of i' • . but tor --`-
Viola ill for' inter er na
ft) a e action out ne-
. it.-
i neer !)--He tut , ui
ion looking. '
alt et.f
curing it'—‘^-- ''
-Ireld.ndwithintli- 1 ' returns 0
;the freeholders registere
h i Viers !to a pen‘ .ISt eighi V CarS,
thAt the foliy haling free oa • .
those of 201. The consequence was that these men
to one, over
anteexercise their . judennent, -were overborne by
wbarvi,&t' ali... to
t and wretched mote The ,
the numbers of an ignorant anal
Honourable Nt
....tta e 7 eneasare
hacVbeen objected to by 'the
..,
~•____,
_.,
~ o r, tor Cktria
s.ttu tottAt
his can t 4-31.—(t.tirs stal Castle in the. purity of

laughter)—He begged to assure the Right Honourable 3tember
_that he was. not a picrty to the meaning which thenififfieliad.
fixed upon his words, beyond the point to which courtesy allow-
ed him to go: The•Right-flon. Gent. bad described the mea,
sure at its outset, as being unjust, infamous, and unconstitu-.
tibnal ; and rather then. permit it to pass was. ready to expire
upon the floor of the House...7(A laugh.)-,-He should like to
know. what there was uneonstitutioriarin the measure,eand what
it was th.-.t so offended the Right Hon: Wentleman in the excess
~f* his Runnymede fMings•-,--(Laithter.)—iirith rer,rard to this:
practie,FOF Making voters •in -Ireland, there -Wen Complaints
that something of a similar nature tank place in England.
There were towns in EN:pi-Id—he forgot their nal-1r.:42-1)ot he
was acidreS4ing himself to- thd Nernber for Corte •Castle.
L.--(great hitighter)...-where Stich*things.were said to exist.
believed thitt:th-seventual eftecCof this meitStre, as a political
ineastrie;i4Oilld'beAti introdOce this e hist 'or :honest
add respectable yeomanry in Ireland, who would 'prove the
Fegu ar.(l of • her political -The • Right
amourable (4entleman then 'adverted again to the -Svech
-141r.' BrinikliOrni contending that he had misiate-rMted
jheopitdon of Mr. O'Connell, and that he had decided' '6i,ork•
this case Under an. entire. ignorance of its facts. He begf.,,'ed
him to inquire of the Milt iqembers, his friends,' who
tat tibout hint, anal he would' find them almostall in favour 04.
the measUre. advised him to information himself of
of the.faets thrtm:- their means, -and for a little tvhile 'to lay
a,id.lrs'fancy V:11111C churnis of his rhetoric. Ile con:,;ratti-'
I.r.titdj the 'llinfse •upon the progress which the great cliy-Sltdri-
lad made by the force of • nrum n. and s',4o eta, of 'ifit'be)
cdnversiuns which had been effected, that of the Hon. Meinlb6r.•-
for:irnurgh was the roost valuable. The lliglit llon4GlVf.9
titan concluded by acknowledging the great services
I.3ralt;Olam had rendered to the cause of Emancipattoli-,',
regretting the course whieb he had taken on that ii-ight..--(FAliiet
eheethig.)
_ _

•
Mr. bANKES rose to relieve himself, in a few .v.-ords,-fitin-f. j
the' dwk Ward situation, in Which he was placed by the sp7.Mil'er 1
limey had just heard, containing a variety of charges' Witteli ilfte'e
•cdamiitlered had been 'inbst unjustly heaped, 011 him. As to th 4
expressions attributed 'to him, .as to. his preferring death,'or
b trig siretched on the floOr of that House, to the passing Of
this Lill, he assured the HoUseht hail' never tittered
The Hon. fientleman slid, that he only.clainmed for Ireland
that it .shemillif be put on the same tbating with regard to its right
of voting as, England stood on ; tint this Bill had 'for its object
the taking away the ilectiVe franchise froth the. forty-shilling
:freeholders withouf giving them any timing in return,' andl on
that ground.alone he disapprorcd of it. lie, therefore, 'should
rooveae an'amendMent, that the Bill be read a second time
this day six ninths.
Mr. Secretary PEEL observed,: that from the very great de-
gree of excitement which • had been raised by the 1-lAourable
Member for Winchelsca and his Right Honourable Frierq
the:A ttori-fey-Oeheral for' Ireland, in their eloquent socccheq
he felt it'very diffictilt to attract the attention of the [loose and
to confine it to the real question before it.. His Hon. Prielitt
(Mr.' Phinkett) had in- the course of his-speechdealredthat if
he even were of opinion that the present_Bill, had an .iatjiteioi±s
tendeney,(iiiid yet was a means of faeilititting the great ge-
neral measure of Catholic Enrancipaion. he would cheerfully
acquiesce in it. He (Mr. Pell) was inelined ro`view the ques-
tion solely on its own merits, apart frtini any connection
the Catholic Bill, and. if he we,re,,sati4iLd that it was calcu-
lated to' any good,'notimitlistionli,ie that it would
litate the passing of the Catholic would not
,oepose
it.—(Cheers.)—His Horiourable-11:ighd had referred 'to an
opinion which he (Mr. Peel) 'had' riven on this subject in.
the year 1817, and had contrasted it with leis language of Thurs-
day .last. No ,v, atiliongh he !eel foreetrep that, in 11117 he
Matt held such langnage, on looking infoli 'ltelbutut' that it
was.peeeisely.in conformity with what_he, had stated in:the de=dehate on TfinitidY'.'l-I
a 'C(IW not think' that'tkllet-Of 170
had produced all the evil. trance had been attribtrEd'-toeit ; as
Mr. Burke had said 0:1 th:d"deceeion, flitiOen,te dlfKred.
fi-orn office, and that n-anch•ike merely 'had' the-rig:l4'6i Ofliee
attach:A to it. Ile admitted that, great abuses did exist hr
Irish electiOns oat'aecount'of.the nornerons'fictitious freeholds
as-described by
Mr. O'Connell. Ile was therefore. prep,:red
to give tiis tittervion to any measure that tytil a tendency eMe-
timlly to-put 'those abuses diiWn ; but fr.-?m the manner in which
the present Bill was brotmeh" under their he coold
notlOok upon it as al.y security thr the poor Pl'Oteettrt free-
holder, or even as a c.,reactive of the perjuri,2s •mo much ebill-
planed or. If the. Bill were to be pr.'ssed forward at present,
it would place the
,house under considerable embarrassmm,t
and diflieulty,, although as he couldanit at once conclude that
they - were called on to take an unwise or impolitic steer,
yet he might falrly describe it as a precipitate one, and .one
which, they were legislating in the absence of all' inrornet
Lion.--(Hear!)--Vet on !)-- Vet he would allow, that'if it's object were to
strengthen the Protestant .interests in Ireland, he then might
be brought reluctantly to give his vote tier it. Ile had, when-
ever the question of Reform, had been agitated in that house,-
given his opposition to it. lie' had opposed the proPosition-
brought forward not long ago, for adding to the number of
voters:l:Ate counties of Scotland. lids s!lotild be very loath
turgive the first vote in favour of any re Boor' that went to
diet-
franchiseany one who had the right of voting.-,• (Cheers.)._
Ile had listened with much satisfaction to the powerful and
eloquent .sPeeeh of hii light Honouratile .Frrend the Attor-
hey-General for Ireland, though he did not think that the
question had been properly considered by him. Ile (31y.
Peel) Lad examined with- some •attettion, the. returns that
had been made • to that Ilorise relative to the :Irish theibrs,
containing the possessions of freehohls front t:n-tv
to fifty pounds ; on linking at them,' he was struck with the
Change which. the Bill proposed to make. Since the year
1618, there had been registered in Tyrone, 'no less than
13.000 torty-Shilling freeholders, and in the same- period, oily
273 of freeholders to the amount of twenty pounds. What would
be the effect, then, of the present bill? Ills Ilan. Friend
(Mr. Littleton) had himself railed doubts in his (Mr. Peel's)
mind. He said that the increase of the franchLte of freeholders
to five pounds, would only be an increase of the evil ; if that
were true, might not the increasing it to ten pounds be also an
increase of the evil in a similar proportion ? What security did
have
\he
,lr.
proposerndividuals coming.up to vote should
the. 3.
3didienmoit,esrayobaselrvvirersd,
thaton tliel-si
en
hits
sest
aid
nothing on the subject of securities. lint hisbililheeon,stithne4-lea
clause, that the oath should relate strictly to
annexed to the Bill. Now, when be-looked for that Schedule '
he found that there was no such thing 'attached to' the Bill_
(Hear, hear !).-- it might be intended to add ft in the'CoMmit-
tee; but he thought that the. ItouSe ShoUld know what it was
before it agreed to thesecond reading, in order that'it might''
fairly understand the •Manner in which it was legislating._
(1l ear, hear !)—Mr. O'Connell had saidohat the present mea-
sure would not materially add- to the interest of time Catholics,
noticing that a gre:itt part of the landed property in Ireland
was in the hands 'of the Protestants. He found that in the
Northern Counties there existed the majority of the forty
shilling freeholders ; they Were the'greattatise of the misery
and distress that were so prevalent. in those counties.......ln
kenny, great distress' ,abounded, there were ,7e,t)
foerntr;% :wherehilliilga freeholders ; and front that 'county find two
Members returned, who are in the Catholic interest: The
County of Fermanagh is decidedly Protestant. In that
'county within the last eight -years 26,900 forty shilling free-
holders had been registered, anti- they had been content to re-
turn two Membersin the Protestant interest. He thotight- from
those instances that the Protestant party would suffer.• His in-
ference might be erroneous, but still he contended that the
louse required more information before it refillarrive at a Just
.conchisioo. Ilia he for one would implore -the House to pause
before it consented to disfranchise--to inquire into the situation
'of the Protestant and Presbyterian weavers in the North of Ire-
land before it passed that Bill. Again, in Niraterford, which
.was one of the disturbed districts, there had been registered
7,000 forty shilling fr;eealninaldheer,s;thuirilefeolne:
eighecounties of Ulster there had
.singe the Year 1703;
olfmreoefore it came to a decision dn
irandn train, the same period,
that
been registered 190,000, andd ninewerbeillecanit9tter'fi7t.usitrerntsi'.loefr nersiit:6llBo;lnteolrinee
had
would
seri. etirrreei
ads
thlrOhnBep, ouUl
Houseoa-t-iioftns
freeholder would
:the subject. He believed that the • number-of tire small tette-
.ments in Ireland- •arose from' -the. -merstocked- populatiOn,
the state olt
more than from a desire on the part of the- 'Protestant land-
landlord to increase' 'his' income.- He did not think that the
effect any very important political object, as the ten pound far-
mers were very litthebetter Oran the forty-shilling freeholders ;
and there would still exist the same noxious influence,
airolitiOn of •the rights 'of the forty--shilling
. which the noose so much wished-to aftist
guard.:-.4 ft-ea't
..lie would ask, what there was which *sliould'prevent a man
from erecting at of houses, and conveying them in fee
harped'sile Lind Irtlis leaving open; every avenite to perjury; ? He
parddn of the 'House for going into -such unint '
6erestme-
details—Uie:tts, hear •) -t they were necessary' to 'she* the
Is on midi -he dissented' farm' the supporters 'of
grown. t pre-
sent Bill. The Bill- tlid- notipropose any remed-
y for the evil's.
• ted out by Mr. O'Connel : the rdmong' the franchise' to ten
pointed
nds did nothing;
pou I
and 'As honest conclusion was, that a
. decision at the piesent time would he', precipitate, and. that,
it would not strengthen .the Protestant interest.
He hoped
that the anoi,nalics which had been brought before- the Com-
. mittee *Otild• be'removed by a, calm, deliberate' inquiry., and
; he thought that, that inquiry might begone into: next Session.
Ile entreated that -the House would. .not come hastil to 1
measure winch affected, in;re'
-.nitration pn a.
'''‘`^ • ost important interest • Ireland; most--
ce •t m
iniftant cyegr • in • but
the benefit of all the dis, •
Iltnat it would gmveat ussron to which
it was entitled.
PAR NELL could not admit that further inqui
necessary. Ile referredthe House to the evidence or the was

man Catholic Archbishop of Tuam, in support of the statement
''"respecting the evils of elections: Ile contended that nothing.batt
tl)e abolition of 40s. fxeeholders would remove the evil.. .Sitice
b e anxious
o
b-
the measure had. been agitated, several meetings bad been held
. hi Ireland, and. not a single dissenting voice had been 'raised
against it: ~
oouield ulterior
Mr. 17. FITZGMALI), haying the. honour to represent a
county in.lreland, could .not avoid expressing the ground' on
which he should vote for the second reading of the Bill. If p
: dtcrobnto4tindei. lieptendontithhoeuCamtnhoot heolicße4elgieerhBl64illAifi
soh
jdets of the measure. He objected to the qiialificatiOn. In
raising it to ill/. Many would be indUced to. -commit pethary.
The Hon. Member thought the qualification should have been
higher, but he was anxious, nevertheless, for the success of the
measure.
The Hon. M. t: Cr.. Supported the bill.
Mr. It. MA,li TIN saitl, in voting for thiS li.ll.'he ........It.on-
Suit his own feelings.. Ile thought it ri4ht to say this in,:asi:iri...
had been forced upon thealouse„ by tl,e Attouncy-lie.ienti 10‘.
Ireland, and all .thptie, who sumi.lri t•,! the' Cativitii.; gut sftin.—
Considerikig it assisted that nicasurt, he `:lmultt voteioi. it, at tte
'.11.= timehe could not coeisent to ca..t otlititti oit'tll qs• l'ev-
hblders. Ile had knownWhenShip loads of that deperiptiyin. of
rioter. had been confined to Vote for a jetiticuler indiyiau4,,ch4t
. they had remained lime in giYing their votes for the person lo
wittom they were devoted. It was, iii his opin;,m, t,i bes?.F.,:t
t, bring them like bees to the hive for the purpose of «l ills;
. t., en).
_,
' :gr. 8.1101W.Na.40 VI; was unwilling tit; question Sle-eil.l come
4.1 a division; before. fie expreSaed 'fiis , seri tiMen ts. . .1 :: :a Ore
''l Fioreo conneeteti with the .inter,e„.stkqf Ireland oeVer caeie lie-
f e Parliament. Ile never had heard any oppc:lfieri to it not
of doors. The flight :Honourable SeCretetry,tor the'llonie Ik-
-Ipartmeat had asked what wotild btethe..c*c't of this 1-eoastire •
in the North of Ireland. Ile thouglit it %V 11; 'supported in the
,North of Ire w
land, and that' the adoption of it as rcconiniended
:14 it:. North of Ireland: The IlOneurz.tble 11.1en04.,,ii.,i prove
itlie,b:ol erect of the system of voting ill Ireland,;lreland,;stet* ,that a
tleAttpte.pf, large lautled property in Ireland, haying never
Vis A 1-, is . estate iii that part of die United -.Kingdom, was.
I bsltgeci,to discharge the 'duty of High Sheriff. The tientleman
was unwilling to go, and said, if the Secretary comPels me, to
! sdli-e the office of Sheriff, I will be even with .liiiii. , I will
i nittle myself a ,Alen-iber of Parliament.. Ji e Lilco took out 2,00 i)
I Joltses, subdivided his land uniting that nuin'oer of tenants, and
! got in LO Parliament without aakinie one man permission. to do so.
1 The remedy for these abused would beu proper qualifiCation.--
Ile believed many substafial freeholders would be disfiatichis-
ed, but for others lie should say the more the..better. They were
okiectionableL.-BiSbOp „firefly had described those unfortunate
IV :.errs going along the mild in rags and withoneelioes to give
t! eir votes. „After a sort of drill, until they could preinourice
tl e name (if ..Awir. master, they went to vote. S,tielie state of
patible with the freedom of election ; copse-
q totals the proposed inea.sure wits superior to the present -system.
-111. in;
(la. slliiJnel7C%l I NSON coin PI i mewed the Hon: lenther
t li
~
flr,.etrapagh upon the manly coorse _he hod pursued with re.:
st.:eet io the great measure to afford reli4tO Irehind. For the .
Bill beftire the House he could not vote;
.lie, ;antic! not con-
&flit to iliStianehise
,nine-tenths Of the voters of
.Ireland, with-.
obt,forther inquiry.-[Here the House beca-.ne impatient; and
cit4e,l londly, " Question ! question !"I—The Hon. Aleinber
.. ~ ,
S3ALIIC could not consent to be put down upon the imperial
-qnestion. It was impossible :taffy interruption could disgrace
leini, noel„slibilld it silence him. He could not consent to this
Measure wiilipikt more inquiry. •IV hat was the -state of.. tine
esee,il 'lt Was stated that the Irish Gentlemen, after disgrace-
fdi.COnditet.wiili -.their tenantry, carne forward .to disfanchise
the V e ry, nip-I:Wham they hail corrupted. They came into that
House to retaard.their own disgrace., Na man lainclited..more
thatilte did the disgusting scenes.carried oil at elections. They
had, however, oppressed' theSe electors—they, had: compel); t!
.them tweet in a corrupt way, and in this instanee had coiee
•tbrward t : cruslethem. Ile had a right to sPealt for the fra,. _
chase in Ireland. Ile would rather lasi i
,hill, Bill, than
. .
receive it on such tern's. ThiS Bill veal,tobe taken as security.
No security was wanting. 'lii-.se were all eutaerahle attempts
to get securities. Admit the people -to the, privileges of tl:e
Coostitution, and their affection to the (Jos-eminent would be
scent its enough.
air. GOULDt..4l.N..assured die-House he should not take
much time in expres,itiliis sentiments. tie watt as ordyeanx lee s
to explain, the vote he should give, in order that it inii;fit not
be misinterpreted.
_Any disposition he might have f,:;lrto vote
fbr the measure had been removed by the ake.ration.otthe MIL
They wcre called on to consent to a measure of danger, and
to take as a security another measure, wh telt was Writ to Currieinto operation far years.to wale. He aid not s.ay. the-measure
would not remedy some existing evils, but before he consented
to take the remedyt be' must know what it realletwaseandallo
yie extent of the 'evil. ' 'There Was nothing' tO'';ditii: the iLin: '
ger was of that extent to warrant tile- interposition of Patna-
IMont. Some saitlit lihdled:to the subdivision Of land. Others
Said it arose from a different cause. Much evidence had been
taken which bore on the qUeStion. The Ritrht Hon. St,t4etary
„
begged leave to read sanneof the evidence taken beftire a Select
Committee of' the llouae : General liourke's evidence went
to saY; 'that thesysteM a forty shilling freeholds did not:pro-
duce the superabundant population; or the .5/kitititt4 sithaiinsitm
Of the land in the county of Limerick. The latter existed be-
fore the system was intrOdliceil. He thonglifilieTorty shilling
freeholders felt a pride in the exercise of their franchise, and 'et
' being able to return a Parliament man."—(llear, hear!) —col.
Curry, another witness who4b.eviderfee was also not yet re-
ported--:,what con'clusiOn 'dill be 'draw from these. facts"? that
Parliament was only proceeding on an inquiry, which ought to
be concluded before the present bill was thought of.' Ler 'Rini
observe; that the Hon.. Jleiuber for Galway bore t:Stitnohy -to
the independence of the itti,,. freeholders, even under'coeicion
and every other suffering. Hr. Ktlly, however, anti- his Hon.
Friend the-Dlember for -Armagh gave different opitiioos, and
from that contrariety of judgment the Hbuse was not in a state •
to legislate on the subject. lTpon ChM as well as other grounds
which he should not detain the House in stating, he should vote
against thin trill.—(hear, hear!)

-Lord MILTON Could. not give a silent vote on this question.
lie was inclined to join in the sentiment' of the Menthe: ter
Galway, that with a view to •forward the' other rneastire before
Parliament, it would at least be advisable to pass this.the pre-
sent stage: The evils of the system be, with the Might Hon.
Secretary(Mr.Peel)adinitted; but with him he likewisetiotibted •
Whether thisßill would _prove a corrective. llucboftlie mischief
Complained of arose from the mode of registry, and the very pre-
vetitivesinfrodUced to -clink abuse. lint if any thing urged hint
to support the measure, it was because it Mined a deadly blow'..
at th. 2 oligarchy of Ireland, cif.which he (Lord Al.) was hithself
One; till that oligarchy was destroyed the state of society in
that country
.would not be such as was desirable. 'l'he oli-
garchy was, he thought, too powerfult and he wished tit des id.
some of their power among a sobstarittal middle class, if it wero
possible to create such a-clasS, which, However, he ft ared was
impracticable. On theSe grounds he should vote for the 13111
now ; but he trusted they would not allow it to gn.out 'of those
walls until the Catholic Bill had receivedtheltoYid Assent..
Mr. GRATTAN oliserved, if any tiring-could in.ike him
support the I3ill it would be its connection with Catholic Entail.
.
ciliation. In principle be was opposed to it, asattacking popn-
hit rights in the 'gross. If they struck off 2.1111,p00 Irish eleetors
in One night, Might not the principle be next ex(liid&d
land. lie, for one, Was no friend to this stir( fit
would rather the rights Of the people were lift;4ll9.4yis
found them. If the gentry Of Ireland did their duty, ihe evils
so often and justly declard to exist in that country, would soon
disappear. Nothing, however, shoUld induce hint to Vote for
the Bill, which he regretted had been introduced as an aiti-
liary to Catholic Emancit:ation.
Sir F.-BURDErf could rot consent to seiiarate th s rill
from that for Catholic Emancipation, and therefore,,honi,i
it all his support. I f the details were not teuicily ,su ii the
taste of all pa:ties, their correction was the busfpf:,:s of the.
Cormnittee. The Ilonoif.able Baronet Prnceeded to iheice idle
State of the 411s,freehulders in Ireland, as deiribetl'hy Mr.
Wakefield; and observed that lie had never evett-11e.Ard II
any one who had not declared the system One Of pie ,curtest
evils of that couniry. For one, he conceived they Obtained :1V
great boort in getting this bill as a centriroutise for,
E;maneipation. When the Catholics were content to take their,.
freedom thus restritited, the opportunity for fouciliiiiiii-gthetn,
ought not to be lost. ' Ile understood that:lreland, neyet.los.,
so tranquil as at this moment, and. that the, cireittnstalee
'.Wholly attributable to the prospect which late events Nell out 7.-
(ikar !),:-4o the prospect of having the wrongs of deb people'
redressed in consequence of the inquiries now Making- liefor
the Committee of both Houses. - The Witnegies"..thetkefailaketl,'
for the first time clime in cOntact, and knei each 'otliei;_aritl'
both parties found they had been labouring
. ! He implored the House not reject this B4l—riot to coli.itter it
distinct front that Which had- been already.sanetioned,
;:passing both to tranquillize Ireland, and cement the Union' kid
'happiness of the two countries. Cries of "Question.")
IIIr.,I)ENAIAN said -that he did not Wish, to intrude
him-
self upon the liouse at. so late an hour, but he felt., it i iltity, to:
himself and lo the House to state his objections io-tliis ,
!although he felt considerable paip in
.so doing.• He thonglir
•thi's Bill unnaturally coupled with' the questibit Of ';:indiretpa7,.
don, and upon constitutional grounds WaSbohnd.to oppeke tt.
Ile heard with 'surprise of the trifling siiCriflO of the elective'
frariliiise-of the right of election-,-and he asked 'What share
was it intended to give the people of Ireland in the govern..
'iodine of the country The question was not Merely Irish ;it
belon:.,red,,to them all, it belonged peculiarly to the. English
flonse of Commons, legislating for the general good. lie
'drdittled the exalt-Tie of this Bill ; lie dreaded it would. be
place,
untiiit privileges
wiore f
brathe
,drawn into a precedent and both in practice and hi theory he
r,el)rpoilae:it
sed t
peply o f t hisi
diminutionattotr eof s
I.
iidisaissed in a con.mittee. An alteration was proposed byY-the
htohneltl rights
tak e