The Sun.
London, England, 1831-06-28 00:00:00

RIOTS IN SCOTLAND.

Mr. DUND AS wished to ask the Lord Advocate of
Scotland whether any measures bad been taken to bring
those who had assembled and committed riots at the late
elections in Scotland to punishment?
The LORD ADVOCATE said he had not the least
objection, in answer, to say that one individual at
Lanark, and certain individuals at various other parts,
were under prosecution at this moment for the part they
had taken in those riots. At Ayr, a very formidab'e riot
had taken place, but hitherto no rioter, he regretted to say,
had been identified, though every investigation had taken
place.
Mr. KENNEDY said, that with reference to the dispo-
sition of the people of Scotland, nothing could be more
sound—lie meant the disposition of the intelligent and re-
spectable class of persons throughout that country. No
doubt, as in all countries, there might be a few evil-disposed
persons who might be ready to create and to join in a
riot ; but the disposition of the people there generally
was of the most sound description, and nothing could
be more libellous or false than to state, as had been
alleged in another place, that they only desired
to have a leader to destroy the established institutions of
the country. He himself knew much of their disposition,
and whenever occasion presented be should be ready to
give in proof to that House what he did know on the
IBkii,ject.
Sir WM. RAE complained that he had been misre-
presented in what he had stated respecting the Scotch a
few nights ago. He had upon that occasion been re-
presented to have said, that a body of Scotchmen could
never meet and separate themselves again, without
bloodshed.—(Laughter.) Such an expression had never
escaped his lips. What he had said, and was ready to re-
peat, was, that though it was exceedingly difficult to rouse
a body of Scotchmen, yet that when they were excited
it was by no means easy to allay that excitement. He be-
lieved that the Learned Lord Advocate opposite could
have no difficulty in bearing out the truth of this state-
ment, recollecting that he himself, when he was the
unpopular candidate at Forfar, was obliged to send thirty
miles for troops to put down the rioters.
An HoN. 111zataart, whose name we could not obtain,
defended the conduct of the Scotch.
Mr. CHARLES ADAM spoke on the same aide.
Sir GEORGE CLERK considered that wherever good
order had been maintained at the late elections, it had
been owing to the proper conduct of the Sheriffs.—
He considered that Scotland, previous to the introduction
of the Reform measure, was one of the most peaceable
pints of his INlijesty's dominions, but that since the
bringing forward of that measure, all the troops in Scotland
had not been able to maintain order and peace ; and he
was persuaded that the excitement, and consequences of
that excitement, was by no means yet at an end on the
other side of the Tweed.
Mr. FERGUSON would make one observation respect•
in those riots that had existed in Scotland, and which
had existed to a considerable extent, not, certainly, to the
eiedit of those concerned in them. His decided opinion
was that if inquiries were nioat scrupulously made, not
ore of those persons to whom the elective franchise
was to be extended would be found among those who
were concerned in such tamults from the one end of Scot-
land to the other.—(Loud cheers.) There could not be a
more loyal, a more moral, a more peaceable population
than that of Scotland.—(Hear.) It was the opposition
to Reform that had caused the exeitement—(lfear)—and
he believed that the riots which had existed in that part
of the country, bad been occasioned by the oppositionists
to the Reform Bill. He was far from justifying such
riots, but be would not let it be said in that House
that his Majesty's Government or those friendly to their
grand measure were either the remote causes of their ex-
istence, or at all accessary to them in any shape.
An HoN. Maataza bore testimony to the outrages coma
witted by the populace against the unpopular candidates.
The LORD ADVOCATE bad issued a proclamation,
in consequence of a communication lie had bad from the
Sheriff of Haddington, declaring that the proceedings of
the Magistrates had his sanction, and that he would have
the guilty brought to condign punishment. He bad been
anxious that all legal measures should be taken to keep the

peace.
A MEMBER, whose name could not be learnt from the
messengers of the House, bore testimony to the violence
that had accompanied many of the recent elections in
Scotland, but denied that from the popular vehemence any
inference could be drawn that the people were favourable
to Reform. He called upon Ministers to look at the
whole of the provincial Press in Scotland, and learn from
thence whether the people of that country were in favour
of the 11111.
Mr. DIXON gave the most unqualified contradiction to
whit had been said by the Hon. Baronet on the floor (Sir
George Clerk). Ile had seen a procession ;n Glasgow of
40,000 persons in favour of Reform, and not a single in-
stance of tumult had occurred, and women and children
had met it in the streets without stay apprehension or in-
convenience. If the whole city of Glasgow were polled
mat, he was convinced that out of its 200,000 inhabitants
199,000 would he in favour of his Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. CAMPBELL said, that although a few persons
might have acted infamously in Lanark, yet the accounts
of what had taken place there were grossly and shame-
fully exaggerated. He had seen 200 troops charge
through a mob of people, and the military had been called
in most unnecessarily, fur out of the 300 special con-
stables, not one had been maltreated, or had lost a single
staff.

31r. FERGUSSON eipl •n
After a few words from- r.edl3 ouCLi s, the petition was
ordered to be printed.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day that the House do resolve itself into
a Committee of Supply.
The Marquis of CHANDOS addressed the Treasury
bench across the table of the House on the thesubjecteotl'ur
y
prosecutions against Mr. O'Connell, but in so low a tone
as to he but indistinctly heard for same time. We under-
stood the Noble Marquis to say, that when he had put a
question to his Mijesty's Ministers respecting their inten-
tions on the subject of the prosecutions against the lion.
Member for Kerry, he had felt himself perfectly satisfied
with the answer which he had received from the Irish
Secretary ; but the course which Ministers had rustled
since the dissolution of Parliament had by no means ac-
corded with what the Right lion. Secretary had said in
reply to his question. He now rose to know whether his
Majesty's Ministers would have:any objection to lay vn

tlble of the House the correspondence which bad taken
place between them and their legal advisers on the question.
Mr. STANLEY had already stated fully and clearly
the grounds upon which the Hon. Member for Kerry had
not been brought up for judgment. If he were disposed to
enter into a quibble with the Noble Marquis, he should
say that the law had been allowed to take its course. If,
on any future occasion, the Noble Marquis should think
proper to bring forward a motion on the subject, he should
be prepared to meet it.

,Mr. O'CONNELL said, that if such a motion were
made, he would he the first man in that House to second
it., The proceedings had taken place upon a statute which
no Minister would dare to apply to England,—a statute
which gave to one man the arbitrary power of deciding
what were public meetings and what were not. This had
very truly been called an Algerine Act. The statute had
expired, and the malignity of certain persons had been dis-
appointed in not seeing brought up for judgment the man
whom they knew not to have committed any offence.
Mr. LEFROY slid, that if the prosecution of the Hon.
Member had not bee❑ carried on, no man could say what
would have taken place in Ireland, such had been the nature
of the offence.

Mr. O'CONNELL complained that the Hon. and
Learned Member had made use of an expression which no
lawyer ought to use. He denied that he had committed
any offence, except under the particular statute, and he de-
fied the lion. Member to volunteer any prosecution of the
sort under any other law.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, that the Hon.
Member for Kerry had declared that no lawyer would pro-
nonnce his conduct a legal offence, or volunteer a prosecu-

ion. Now he (Sir C. Wetherell) was a Limier, and

would—

Mr. O'CONNELL—I said, " independent of that one
statute."

Sir CHARLES WETHERELL—Oh, that then is a
drawback on the whole proposition ; it lowered the pro-
position 100 per cent. Had not the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government declared that he would take care
that the law was carried into effect, and had not the Noble
Lord at the head of the Exchequer said, that sooner than
the prosecution should be stopped, he would incur even a
civil war ?—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " No no," from all
parts of the House.) Well, then, the Noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer had said, that he would brave a civil war
sooner than consent to a repeal of the Union,—was not
that the Noble Lord's declaration ? Well, and was not
the repeal of the Union one of the prominent topics of the
public speeches of the Hon. Member for Kerry? lie got
up to say that he applauded the Noble Lord for his decla-
ration. They had, to be sure, an aristocracy yet in being,
to which the Noble Head of the Government, and the Noble
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and some few others of his
colleagues belonged ; but he did not know, and would not
take it upon him to'say, how long, under the presentsystem
of revolution in which those noble personages more or less
assisted—how long that aristocracy would be permitted to
exist.—(" Hear," from the Opposition.) Why (he would
again ask) did the Government abandon prosecutions to
which they were in policy, honour, and consistency
pledged ? It was no excuse to say that the stat u`e under
which they bad proceeded as far as they did had expired,
for, if necessary to their purpose, why nut get it renewed,
were it only for one year?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt it
right to say one word in explanation of what had falle❑
from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was true that
he had made use of strong language in the last Session
with reference to the state of Ireland—that he had stated
that he was satisfied in his own mind that the repeal of
the Union with that country, then much agitated, would
lead to the dismemberment of the empire; and that there-
fote, sooner than that dismemberment should take place,
he should prefer the hazard of a civil war.—(Hear.) That
was what he did say, and would repeat.—(Hear, hear.)
But he had never said—as the Hon. and Leaned Gentle-
man would insinuate—that lie would prefer civil war to
foregoing the prosecutions then pending, or any prosecu-
tions whatever--(Hear)—for he never, for one moment,
could harbour such a monstrous proposition.—(Cheers.)
Arr. PERRIN (as we understood) contended that, as
the statute to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
referred had originated with his own party, and not with
the present Government or its supporters, Ministers were
not called upon to propose its renewal.—(llear.)
Sir E. SUGDEN was one of those who had voted for

the Act, because convinced of its expediency, without re-
ference to any other measure, and was prepared to vindi •
cate the grounds on which he had given his vote. Its
odium, if there was any, was fairly imputable to the House
at large.
The discussion here dropped.
Captain BOLDERO was anxious to obtain some infor-
mation from the Right Hon. the First Lord of the Ad-

roiralty on a matter, us it appeared to him, of great public
importance. He bad just come up to town from Ports-
mouth, where be bad seen a very large fleet—(A laugh)--
and he was anxious to know from the proper quarter for
what that fleet was thus collected.—(Great laughter.) lie
really saw nothing laughable in the matter, and was sur-
prised that a question of great public interest, not only in
a financial point of view, but as it bore upon the internal
and external relations of the country, should he attempted
to be got rid of in this way, with such unbecoming levity.
It was the largest fleet that had been collected at Ports-
mouth for the last 16 years, and evidently could only have
been collected at great expense to the country. He wished
to know what was its obj.ct ?
Sir J. GRAHAM, in answering the Hon. Member

begged to say, first, that the fleet to which he alluded was
not assembled for the purpose of hostile aggression upon any
foreign power ; and, secondly, wss not assembled for
the mere purpose of experiments in naval science. The
fact was, that the necessary ev,lutioas in naval warfare re-
quired a considerable deal of preliminary practice, and all
that was intended by the assembling of the {bet at Shithead
was to take advantage of the summer months in practiming
those evolutions.—(Hear.)
In answer to a question of an Hon. Member,
Lord HOWICK stated, that it was not the intention of
Ministers to propose in the present session any compulsory
regulations with respect to the manumission of slaves in the
Colonies.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

The House having gone into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. TENNYSON brought forward the Ordnance Esti-
mates. The Hon. Member said, that as he expected no
opposition to the grants, they being in fact merely the
complement of the year, which had not Leen provided for,
owing to the late dissolution of Parliament, he would not
enter into any statement ❑ow of their details, but he was
ready at the same time to afford any information that might
be required.
After a few words from Mr. HumE, the several Esti-
mates were put seriatim, and agreed to without any oppo-
sition.

Mr. HUME wished to know, before the Chairman left
the chair, from the Hon. Gentleman, whether the regu-
lation which he had himself stated last Session with re-
spect to the filling up of vacancies in the Ordnance-office
had been adhered to; he meant, whether half-pay officers
had been called ❑pon to till such vacancies as might have
occut red in that department, to which they were com-
petent ?
Mr. TENNYSON was happy to state, in answer to
his Hon. Friend, that the present Master-General of the
Ordnance had since his accession to office rigidly adlieted
to that regulation—(Hear, hear)—and that further im-
provements, by which a considerable saving would accrue
to the public, were in contemplation.
Sir H. HARDINGE was apprehensive lest it should be
inferred, from the tone of the statement just made, out of
doors that the late Board of Ordnance presented an un-
favourable contrast to its present successor, so far as eco-
nomy and an efficient discharge of duty was concerned.
He, therefore, begged the Hon. Gentleman to state whe-
ther any, and what, difference with respect to the ap-
pointment of half-pay officers to va'•ant situations in the
Ordnance existed between tke present and the late Board
of Ordnance ?
Mr. TENNYSON and Colonel MABERLY both stated
that they were willing to bear their testimony to the effi-
ciency and economy of the management of the late Board
of Ordnance.—( Hear.)
Sir H. HARDINGE felt thankful for such a candid
admission.
Alter a few words from Messrs. Hurt and [luau, the
grant was agreed to.
NAVY ESTIMATES. _ _ .

Sir .1. GRAHAM then moved the Navy Estimates.
The Committee would observe, that those estimates were
precisely identical with those presented to the former
[louse of Commons. The Committee would likewise see
that the balance-sheet had been brought forward from the
Ist of January to the Ist of April. He then moved—
" That
a force of 32,000 men, including 10,000 for the
Royal Marine Service, be voted for the Service of the
year 1831."

Sir G. CLERK did not wish to urge any objection to
the present vote, but he could not help observing that the
amount of the force was nominally the same, whereas
there was, in point of fact, a great practical incretse. The
force that heretofore protected the revenue along the coasts
of Kent and Sussex hod been transferred from the Navy
Ditimates to the Customs' Department. Since February,
it must be known to the House, that the expence of maia-
ben transferredaetthwstherelwr
btehene Berro,arodvdol
etatiinstionnig
s. it
11,fo,aresesahiiinith

savitag of 70,000/. a year. Fie really believed that upon
a trial of the experiment it would turn out that the change
as far from being a saving, would be a loss to the country.
The Board of Customs were saddled with au expense of
from 140,0001. to 1130,000/. without any corresponding
benefit. He then proceeded to notice the discharge of the
coast blockade, and pressed upon the attention of the
Committee the injudiciousness of that step at a moment
when we had such a squadron afloat as that now at Spit_
head, and at a time when there was such a want of sea-
men. Recurring to the change made in the Preventive
Service, he would repeat that he thought it would be
productive of serious mischief, and that before the winter
passed over.
Sir JAMES GRA HAM said that the subject just re-
ferred to divided itself into two parts—the fiscal question,
namely, whether the present or the former coast guard
was likely to prove more efficient ; and the naval ques-
tion. As to the fiscal matter, the question was, whether
the trade was now better protected under the Board of
Customs than it had been by the former coast guard. New
lie had the authority (if the Chairman of the Board of
Customs for saying th•tt the duty was as efficiently per-
formed as ever ; and that a saving of at least seventy thou-
sand pounds could be demonstrated. It had bee❑ said,
that in giving up the old preventive service the country
had lost a valuable force. That was altogether a mistake,
for a large proportion of them were lendstnen, and could
not be transferred to the service of the navy : for out of
two thousand four hundred, not above eight hundred were
found eligible. There had been altogether a reduction of
one thousand men, and there would speedily be a further
reduction of a first-rate ship of war ; and the _Britannia,
a 7-4-gun ship, which, with the one thousand inen he hail
already mentioned, would operate a reduction to the full
extent of the coast guard.
Mr. LEADER complained that there were no Govern-
ment dock-yards in Ireland—that there was merely a mi-
litary possession of Ireland—a possession that cost this
country since the Union 93,000,000/.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that a sum of 49,299/. 2s. 7d. be
granted for the contingent expenses of the Navy-office,
Mr. HUME inquired if there were any intention of
consolidating the Navy-office with the Navy Pay-office?
Lord ALT HORP said it was in contemplation, and no
pains would be spared to forward its accomplishment.
On the question that a sum of 810,0001. be granted fur
timber and other materials for the use of the Navy,
Mr. HUME observed, that the present vote was an
immense sum to be voted for such a purpose, at a time
when they were stopping the building of ships. As he
was upon his legs, he wished to know if there was any
truth in the statement that the squadron at Spithead was
to be detained fourteen days on account of a Court-
martial ?

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the squadron were
not detaiced on that account.

Mr. C. PELHAM said, that the diminution of oak

timber in this country was every day becoming greater
and greater, and he thought there ought to be a bounty
or encouraging the growth of what was so important to
the defence of the country.
Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that if some measures
were not resorted to, the timber of the country would fall
to the ground.
Mr. HUME should rather see the timber growing, than
in the stores of the Navy. It had of late been frequently
made matter of complaint that men could not be found to
enter into the Naval service. He would tell them the
reason. Seamen, though now almost starving in the dif-
ferent ports of the Empire, were averse from entering
into the service, from a knowledge of the arbitrary power
possessed by the Copt tins in the Navy.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the Board of Admiralty
hail it under consideration to place the power exercised by
Captains under stricter controul, and to take every pre-
caution to avoid the necessity of impressment ; but he
feared that. from time to time, circumstances could not fail
to arise which would render a recourse to that mode of
obtaining men altogether unavoidable. He had to observe,
in reference to the boatmen engaged in the Preventive
Service, that the patronage had been transferred from the
Treasury to the Board of Admiralty; but an arrangement
was made upon the subject which he had no doubt would
prove satisfactory.
Sir GEORGE CLERK heard with great satisfaction
the Right Hon. Baronet opposite declare that it was im-
possible for the business of the Navy to be carried on
without impressment.
Mr. HUME observed upon the folly of taking on and
discharging men in the Navy. He hoped that the present
vote of 20,000 was for the year, and that they would not
be discharged immediately on being trained.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM informed the Hon. Member
that there was no such intention on the part of his Ma-
farty's Government.
CROKER next addressed the Committee, but so
frequently dropped his voice towards the close of sentences,
that the purport of his observations could not be fully col-
lected. Ile was understood to make some complaint re-
specting the regulation by which Warrant Officers as such
were prevented from paying their reapects to the Sovereign.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that with respect to what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to the
order for the exclusion of full pay officers from Court, it
appeared to him that the Right lion. Gentleman had an-
swered himself; for it did not appear that Ire (Mr. Croker)
doubted the clear and undeniable right of the Admiralty
to make that order. If the Right Hon. Gentleman thought
proper to impug❑ the justice of that order, he (Sir J. Gra-
ham) would be prepared to justify the necessity of some
such sort of restraint.
Mr. CROKER thought that the order had originated
from some mistake or etror ; and he was therefore much
surprised to hear the lUght Hon. Baronet say that he was
prepared to defend its propriety.—(Hear, hear.) Accord-
ing to that order, those officers who were on full pay were
prevented from attending at Court, while those on half-pay
had no such restriction imposed upon them, though some
of these persons might have been put upon hall-pay for
misconduct. Anything, so absurd or preposterous as this
arrangement he had never heard of.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that if this order had
arisen from error (and he by no means admitted that that
was the case), it was at all events only an error in point
of form ; for the Right lion. Gentleman had not yet im-
pugned the substance of the order. If the Right Hon.
Gent], man wished to raise the question of its propriety,
he (Sir J. Graham) would be quite prepared to meet him
on it.
Mr. CROKER said, that if that was the only expla-
nation he could obtain, lie should be disposed to make a
distinct motion on the subject. He was prepared to deny
altogether the power of the Admiralty to make any such
order.
Sir J. GRAHAM, in that case, should reserve him-
self for the distinct motion of the Right Heu. Gentle-
man.—(A laugh. )‘
Mr. CROKER said that that reservation would not
serve the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, bear.) Did
the Right Hon. Baronet now renew his statement that it
was a question of doubt whether the Admiralty had the
authority which it had exercised ?
The CHAIRMAN (amid general laughter) put the
vote, which was carried without any further observation
from Sir James Graham.
On the vote of 24,0401. for the expence of packets, &c.
Mr. CHOKER asked some questio❑ relative to the
tonnage lately advertised for by the Government ; but we
were not able to catch the exact purport of the R:ght
lion. Gentleman's observations.
Sir J. GRAHAM stated, i❑ reply, that they had been
required in aid of the quarantine service.
Sir G. CLERK asked whether Government intended
to allow, as was the report, goods to be unshipped at the
Isle of Sheppey, which of itself was not a very healthy
place?
Sir J. GRAHAM felt that it would be indiscreet in
him to give any pledge on the part of the Government.
At present there was no fixed intention ; but the whole
question was under the consideration of the Government
and a Board of Health : and every endeavour would be
made to meet every reasonable demand.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of 88,5001. for the expence of conveying
convicts to New South Wales,
Mr. HUME wished to know whether any arrange-
ments had been made for lessening this expence ? Ile
also wanted to know whether anything was about to be
done for lessening the expence of the squadron off the coast
of Africa, which was there for the prevention of the
slave trade? He thought that a Committee ought to be
appointed to inquire into the state of that trade.
Colonel SIBTIIORPE thought the expence for the con-
veyance of convicts unwarrantable.
Mr. CHOKER remarked, that the very efficiency of
rur squadron was one of the causes of more cruelty being
practised towards the negro, because it was the means of
patting the slave-dealer more on Iris guard. Unless Eng-
and could persuade all the Maritime Powers to allow the
,:iglit of mutual search on the coast of Africa, the best
thing we could do would be to leave off interfering alto-
gether.
qtr J. GRAHAM agreed that the expence of the
African squadron was enormous, and that so far from suc-
ceeding in depressing the amount of the traffic in slaves,
that traffic was rapidly increasing. This country was un-
ble to effect a treaty with the Maritime Powers for the
;Oa of m,,tual starch on that coast ; and as long as that

was the case, all attempts at putting down the trade must
prove ineffective. A good deal of that trade had of late
been carried on under the flag of France. Negosiations
were now pending with that country, in consequence, and
he trusted that no difficulties would be thrown in the way
of a mutual right of search.--(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. CaEssirr PELthum, Mr.
EVA xs, and Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS, the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 63,3631. for the Victualling Yards, &c.,
Mr. CROKER asked whether it was true that cholera
had displayed itself in the west of Ireland?
Sir J. GRAHAM had not beard of any thing of the
sort. Great distress had prevailed there, and the conse-
quence had been that fever had made its appearance.—
Government had done every thing in its power to check
its progress ; and he was happy to say that the distress
itself was abating.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 86,4571. for the new works in the Me-
dical and Victualling Departments,
Mr. HUME asked, whether it was still the rule of
Government to apply sums specifically voted to the Go-
vernment service of the Navy?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that Government would en-
deavour strictly to adhere to the objects for which the
sums were voted ; and in the event of being obliged to
break this rule, the earliest opportunity would be taken to
apprise Parliament of the fact.—(Hear, hear.)

_ .
Vote agreed to.
On the vole of )57,5761. fur Pensions to Medical
Men, &c.
Mr. HUME was aware that the rule of promotion in
the navy now, was one for every three vacancies, but he
thought this even was on too large a scale—and that, in
fact, no single promotion ought to take place in the pre-
sent state of the country, except under the most extraor-
dinary circumstances.
Sir J. GRAHAM regretted that the rule of promotion
of one in three had not been resorted to earlier, and then
there would not now be cause of complaint.—( Hear. )
After a few words from Mr. CROKER and Mr. HUME,
Vote agreed to.
£175,000, for the provisions of troops of foreign sh-
tions, was voted without remark or opposition.