The Sun.
London, England, 1849-03-28 00:00:00

THE SUN,

had long been of opinion that this was one of the
grievances that ought to be removed. He was Leppy
the motion had been brought forward by the Hon.
Member for Cork, and should give it his cordial support
Mr. NA PIER asked those who said they were it.
favour of the sights of conscience to act upon their over
principle. He only asked for his Church that it shouli,
be maintained in the pessessien of its property and the
right to exercise freely the privilege of individual
judgment on religious matters. He was ready to
grant these to others and clahmed them for him
self. But it was always complained that this impost
fell upon individuals; whereas, the fact was, that at
title of the Church to this property was based upon the
same ground as the title to all the property settled upon,
the plantations in Ulster by the English Sovereign, and
the present possessors had taken that property subject
to that charge. Unless they could maintain that pro
perty charged for a Protestant clergyman could not be
taken and enjoyed by Roman Catholics, there was 1.11)
force in the arguments of those who supported the mo-
tion. With regard to the maintenance of a National
Church, he thought the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had put that question on a right footing.
when be said that the maintenance of the Established
Church in this country was not tor the purpose of main
taining any sect of religionists, but us an act of homage
to religion itself; and whatever was sad as to the Pro-
testant Church in Ireland he was reedy to place it in
proud comparison with any Church in Christendom.—
( Hear, hear.) If they commie:iced opening up
those questions as regarded what was paid in
Ireland for the support of the Protestant Church.
they should take care that the discussion of these die
not lead to the opening up ether questions. They had
better take carp lest the propriety of the Maynooth
Grant was not questioned, for it was double the sum now
complained of, and whether it might not be urged that
other grants of a like nature ought to be abolished. No
man had a higher respect for religious liberty than be
had, but feeling that the property enjoyed by the Church
to which he belonged was originally assigned to it, he
thought it would be a direct violation of the principles
of religious liberty now to divest it of that property,
and he therefore opposed the motion.
Mr. REYNOLDS said it was clear that the Honour-
able Gentleman was a warm defender of the Protestant
Church, but he doubted whether the archbishops and
bishops of the Church would thank him for the de
fence he had made. He had stated that the Protes
tant Church was descended -from St. Patrick,
but he had been taught from earliest infancy that St.
Patrick was a Roman Catholic saint, and consequently
could not have been the founder of the Protestent
Church. He was not there, however, to discuss
that question with the Hon. Gentleman—he was there
to speak of ministers' money—and he begged to remind
the Hon. Gentleman that the large revenues which both
the Protestant Church in England and Ireland enjoyed
were taken from the Raman Catholic Church.— (Hear,
hear.) He had a double right to complain of this minis•
ters' money, and for this reason. That money amounted
in the aggregate to 15,0001. annually, and 11,000/. of
that sum was paid by the city of Dublin, which he had
the honour to represent, while the remainder was spread
over a few towns in other parts of Ireland. His con•
stituents, therefore, paying upwards of four- fifths of the
sum, he certainly had a right to complain and to insist
that that money should be taken from the shoulders of
the people, and paid from the proper quarter. Last year
he was a member of a Committee appointed to inquire
into the subject, and he regretted that that Committee
decided as it did. He was in the minority, and was stilt
more sorry to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Master of the Mint, who knelt at .the same altar with
himself, gave the casting vote against his party. The
Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland appeared to
make a point of spending as much they received, which
they could do, no doubt, if their income was 6,128,0001.
instead of 1,628,000/. It should be remembered that this
was the richest Church in the world, and as one of the
Catholic population of Ireland, he declared that he
looked upon the temporalities of that Church as a broad
mark of degradation; and that he believed, as an Irish-
man and a Catholic, that that feeling would exist in
Ireland so long as that plague spot was allowed to exist.
He should be unworthy, indeed, of the name of a free
man and a Christian, if he submitted quietly to this
infliction, which he believed would not be tolerated in
any other country in the civilized world. The people of
England were taxed to support an army of 40,000 men
in Ireland. Let them destroy the temporalities of the
Established Church, and they might withdraw that force
altogether.—(hear, hear, and cheers.) In conclusion,
he called upon the Government to come forward and
vindicate the rights of Catholics, and put a stop to a
system which was everywhere regarded as unjust and
intolerable.

Mr. NAPIER said that he rose to put the House
right with respect to the statement of the Hon. Member
for Dublin, that the revenue of the Ecclesiastical Com
missioners was upwards of 1,200,000/. He would find
in the appendix of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners'
report that their revenue for the current year was
71,0001.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said, that whatever his
views might be upon the real merits of the question, he
should not consent to deprive entirely his ,Protestant
fellow-countrymen in Ireland of their political station.
Sir J. TYRELL said that the avowed intention of
many Catholic Members of the llouse being to eradicate
the Church Establishment in Ireland, he begged leave
to say that he should not be tempted by any topics
they had indulged id to follow them into all the
details which the debate had just been turning
upon. He was especially desirous not to give
offence to any Catholic Member of the House,
but he could not refrain from quoting the opinion
expressed upon the subject by Mr. Macaulay, whom
they could not sufficiently regret was no longer a Mi-
nister or a Member. (The Hon. Member then read an
extract from Mr. Macaulay's "History of England,"
strongly animadverting on the conduct;of the Roman
Catholics in several important events recorded in the
histories of England and France, which was received by
many Irish Members with cheers and laughter, and
cries of " Oh, oh.") The Hon. Member repeatediy de-
clared them to be the opinions of the late Whig Member
for Edinburgh, and not his own, and as such entitled to
the respect of the House. The Hon. Baronet then
quoted the statement made by Mr. Whiteside in his
work upon Italy, that at Rome and throughout the
country it was not permitted to record the virtues of.
deceased persons on their tombstones, without making
any allusion to a future state. The Hon. Baronet was
frequently interrupted by the Hon. Member for Dublin,
and other Hon. Members, wi h the cry of "The tempo-
ralities."
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the previous question
Against it 44
Majority
COMMITTEES.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved that if at any time
during the sitting of a Select Committee of this House
the quorum of Members fixed by the Hodse shall not
be present, the clerk of the Committee shall call the
attention of the chairman to the fact, who shall there-
upon suspend the proceedings of the Committee until
quorum be present, or adjourn the Committee to some
future day.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY said that great inconvenience
arose from Members being on four or five different Com-
mittees, and he should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. HUME then suggested that the omission should
be reported to the House.
Sir G. GREY thought that would be attended with
great convenience.
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. SOTHERON obtained leave to bring in a Bill
to make better provision fur certifying tables of contri-
butions to friendly societies, and for ascertaining the
solvency of such societies
The report on the Ordnance excess was received in
Committee of Supply.
The Prisoners Removal (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past
One o'clock.

TO TILE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
Srn,—As I have always opposed what is called " the
reciprocity principle" in every shape, I must beg you to
correct the report of the speech which you attribute to
me in the debate in Committee on the Navigation Laws.
In the tew words which I said on the 19. h clause of
the Bill I objected to the power retained by the Execu-
tive to retaliate upon foreign countries withholding from
us the privileges granted to them by Great Britain, and
I strongly recommended the Government to withdraw
the clause altogether.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
J. LEWIS RICARDO.

Brookes' Club, March 27.
[We regret exceedingly the mistake which has occur-
red, but we understand from our reporter that, in conse-
quence of the noise prevailing in the House, and of the
low tone in which the Hon. Member spoke, it was im-
possible to hear distinctly in the gallery what the Hon.
Member said.—En. Sun.]

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.

(From the Vides and Proe,yZngs of the House of commons.)
TUESDAY', 3IARCII 27.
STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
The following R,;solutiona were reported from the above
,Jornmittee,:—

1. That in the case of the Great Grimsby Corporation
and Freemen's Arrangement Bill, petition for additional pro-
vision, the standing orders ought to be dispensed with :
that the parties be permitted to introduce their additional
provision, if the CommiLtee on the Bill shall think fit.
2. That in the case of the Railway Assurance Company
petition for leave to deposit a petition for a Bill, the standing-
orders ought to be dispensed with :—That the parties be per-
mitted to deposit a'petition for a Bill, provided the same be
deposited not later than three clear days after the presenta-
tion of this report.—Resolutions agreed to.